# Pakistan Air Force | News & Discussions.



## fatman17

News Asia-Pacific:

1. Thailand to buy 12 JAS-39C/D Gripens and 2 Saab Eri-eye AEW systems for US 1.08 Billion. Gripens will replace the ageing F-5E/Fs of the RTAF. the Lockheed-Martin F-16 and the Sukhoi SU-30 were also short-listed before settling on the Gripen.

2. More details emerge on secretive chinese WZ-10 attack helicopter:
powered by two 1,531 shp P&WC PT6C-67C turbo shaft engines with Full Authority Digital Engine Control(FADEC). although some sources suggest that up to eight trials WZ-10s may now have been built, only three flying prototypes have been confirmed. (Z10-01, 02 and 03). maiden flights on April 23, 2003. in 2001 China asked Denal to purchase one helicopter (Rooivalk) suggesting it was to be used for reverse engineering and therefore the sales was blocked.weapons planned for the WZ-10 appear to be largely indigeneous like the new HJ-10 ATGM and older TY-90 SRAAMs.

3.India finalises plans for 40 more SU-30MKIs:
clearence has been given for the US $ 1.6 Billion deal to purchase 40 SU-30MKIs from Russia for the IAF. the additional 40 SU-30MKIs will give the IAF a fleet of 230 SU-30MKIs. the indian govt has asked HAL to complete the delivery of these aircraft by 2013-14 instead of the originally planned 2016-17

4. HAL to upgrade IN Sea-Kings:
clearence has been given to upgrade 18 of the IN Seaking 42/42B ASW helicopters under a $ 200 mill programme. IN originally purchased 43 Seakings but were grounded due to sanctions imposed after the 1998 nuclear tests.

5. Pakistan takes over Bell 412EPs:

already reported in land forces section.

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## EagleEyes

Thank you for the info.


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## ahussains

How many Bells Pak getting and what is the quantity right know.


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## fatman17

ahussains said:


> How many Bells Pak getting and what is the quantity right know.



26 and 1 is lost due to fatal crash leaving 25.

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## fatman17

Not much news on Pakistan except for the following 2 small items:

1. passing through shannon airport, ireland on november 5 was new production Gulfstream G450 N490GA (c/n 4090). it was on its delivery flight to the PAF with which it will be serialled J-756. the a/c had arrived directly from the Gulfstream Aerospace factory at savannah, georgia and had been scheduled to make a fuel stop at gardermoen, norway, but instead made a weather diversion to shannon. it wore full PAF colours but had the US civil registration taped over its PAF serial for the delivery flight.the PAF already has a single Gulfstream IV SP in service. J-755 (c/n 1258) that was delivered in Dec 2005 and is operated by N0. 3 SQDN at chaklala.

2. Upgraded Hindsvery interesting article). the author Alexander Miladenov has listed 51 world-wise Mi-24 operators including Pakistan Army Aviation Corps.
*Q- does the PAA operate the Mi-24?. *the only information i have is the defection by AAF Mi-24s in the mid-80s. both the a/c are parked at quetta's samugli air-base in non-flyable condition!
*Any Comments please!*

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## Proud to be Pakistani

*Hinds in PAA .... Never heard about it.*...


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## Blackpearl

there are no Hind type helicopter ever seen flown by Army. But, yes i hav seen pictures on Pakaviation.com, of Hinds in PAF markings.


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## fatman17

Blackwater said:


> there are no Hind type helicopter ever seen flown by Army. But, yes i hav seen pictures on Pakaviation.com, of Hinds in PAF markings.



so the author is correct!

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## EagleEyes

If you go to PAF Faisal, you will see a junked Mi-24 hind, in the far backyard. I have it in the gallery. Check it out. PA operated them for sometime, but lack of spares leaded them to be unoperatable.


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## JK!

Probably Ex Afghan air force Hinds defected to Pakistan from the 1980s.


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## Blackpearl

fatman17 said:


> 26 and 1 is lost due to fatal crash leaving 25.



Is there any news, that PAF is also planning to induct Bell 412 as SAR helicopter, so as to replace vintage Alouette IIIs?


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## fatman17

Blackwater said:


> Is there any news, that PAF is also planning to induct Bell 412 as SAR helicopter, so as to replace vintage Alouette IIIs?



no news however PAF is inducting Mi-17s in that role!
any confirmation of this news!


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## fatman17

*AFM News for the month of Feburary:*

*Attrition:*
1. Jan 2-08, Pakistan Army - AH - 1 Cobra: crash landed near Thal, Parachinar, due to technical malfunction during a routine operational flight. the 2 crew escaped unharmed.

2. Dec 15-07. PAF - Chengdu F-7P: crashed near Samundri (Faisalabad), eastern punjab after the pilot had ejected due to a technical problem during a operational training mission.

3. Saudi Arabia buying Russian Helicopters?: sources in the region indicate that SA signed a MoU during mid-september in riyadh for the proposed purchase of 150 helicopters worth US$ 2.2 billion. they will comprise a mix of Mi-8, Mi-17 and Mi-35 attack helicopters.

4. Indian Army helicopter deal scrapped: India's defence ministry is confirming that a deal that had been all but finalised with Eurocopter for 197 AS 550 Fennec helicopters has been scrapped.

5. Pakistan F-16 order goes ahead: Lockheed Martin was awarded a US$ 498.2 Mill contract on Dec 31 through the USAF's 312 AESF/PKA at wright-patterson AFB, Ohio for the procurement via the FMS process of 18 F16C/D blk 52 aircraft for the PAF.
the order is split between 12 single-seat F16Cs and 6 twin-seat F16Ds while options are still held on a further 18 aircraft. LM also announced that Pak had ordered 18 SATPods for the aircraft. delivery of all 18 F-16s is scheduled for completion by november 2010.

6. RoKAF looking for A-37B buyers: defence officials in RoK announced that both Pakistan and Peru have shown interest in the RoKAF now retired Cessna A-37Bs. Pakistan has said that it was interested in purchasing A-37B engine spares while Peru was interested in buying the aircraft.

7.a very detailed article on India's MiG Complex at Nasik with some very nice pictures of various activities.


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## EagleEyes

> India's MiG Complex at Nasik



A breif information about this would be appreciated.

Any who..

So total number of F-16s planned are?

18 New F-16 Block 50+
18 New F-16 Block 50+ (Option, but not ordered)
36 F-16 Block 15+ with few Block 40+.

Any other orders? Can anybody confirm the old F-16s we are getting. What was the number?

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## fatman17

WebMaster said:


> A breif information about this would be appreciated.
> 
> Any who..
> 
> So total number of F-16s planned are?
> 
> 18 New F-16 Block 50+
> 18 New F-16 Block 50+ (Option, but not ordered)
> 36 F-16 Block 15+ with few Block 40+.
> 
> Any other orders? Can anybody confirm the old F-16s we are getting. What was the number?



36 in hand
24 in the process of upgrade and delivery(mix of blk 15 and 40)
36 new
96 total (5.3 sqdns)
the original plan was 108 a/c (6 sqdns) so expect additional used F-16s to cover this gap.

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## EagleEyes

Alright thanks mate. 

We looking good.


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## solid snake

fatman17 said:


> 36 in hand
> 24 in the process of upgrade and delivery(mix of blk 15 and 40)
> 36 new
> 96 total (5.3 sqdns)
> the original plan was 108 a/c (6 sqdns) so expect additional used F-16s to cover this gap.



So Pakistan has decided to go for the extra 18 option as well? Any link to confirm that?

And jumpin jesus! India has 230 MKIs? Damnnnn, that is a *serious* quantitive edge over us.


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## fatman17

solid snake said:


> So Pakistan has decided to go for the extra 18 option as well? Any link to confirm that?
> 
> And jumpin jesus! India has 230 MKIs? Damnnnn, that is a *serious* quantitive edge over us.



the news is from AFM - Feburary-08 issue.


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## Owais

solid snake said:


> So Pakistan has decided to go for the extra 18 option as well? Any link to confirm that?
> 
> And jumpin jesus! India has 230 MKIs? Damnnnn, that is a *serious* quantitive edge over us.



we might place additional order of another new 18 (or more) F-16s with APG-80 AESA radar but it depends on US policies as long as their Forces are in Afghanistan, they will support us


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## fatman17

WebMaster said:


> A breif information about this would be appreciated




*Key points from India's MiG Complex: HAL NASIK*

1. Nasik Aircraft Production:

MiG-21FL = 1966-74
MiG-21bis = 1976-87
MiG-27ML = 1982-97

Su-30MKI = 2004 onwards.

the HAL Nasik Division was established in 1964 for the licence-manufacture of the MiG-21FL and the K-13 (AA-2 Atoll) missiles. its quotes its main objective today as 'keep the available fleet of the MiG-21/27 and Su-30 MKI's at the highest level of servicability'.

this large military-looking facility is located at ojhar some 15 miles (24km) north-east of nasik in the state of maharashtara, around 120 miles (200km) north-east of mumbai.

by 1995 all 125 MiG-21bis were upgraded to the MiG-21bison standard. initially the upgrade on the most modern of the MiG-21s took 11 months but as the teams gained in experience, this dropped to 9.

SU-30MKI production Phases:
phase 1 (CTS): receipt of a/c from russia for system checks, ground and flight checks and final finishing at nasik. - delivery commenced from 2004-05.

phase 11 (FE): receipt of major assemblies from russia for equipping a/c, plus ground and flight test activities as per phase 1. - delivery commenced from 2005-06.

phase 111 (RM-1):raw material participation will start from this phase. all components will be manufactured in the division except for fuselage which will be imported. - delivery commenced from 2006-07.

phase 1V (RM-11): manufacture of components from raw material, sub-assemblies and final assembly and flight testing. - delivery commences from 2009-10.


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## Blackpearl

Can somebody confirm? Training in PFT ( Risalpur ) is still carried out on Mushaks or, is there a plan to switch over to Super Mushaks, in future. Does PAF has any plan to induct Super Mushaks


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## fatman17

i think the super mushak has been inducted in PA and PAF.


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## solid snake

What is the difference between Super mushak and regular mushak?


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## fatman17

solid snake said:


> What is the difference between Super mushak and regular mushak?



may i say engine?


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## fatman17

*AFM News for the month of March:*

1. France persues major indian defence deals: Dassault has again made a un-solicited offer to india to supply 40 Rafale fighters as a short-term measure to boost the IAF's depleted a/c inventory. this is keeping with previous experience with long delays in indian military acquisitions.

2. further discussions are also in progress to upgrade 52 IAF-Dassault Mirage-2000H/TH. total delivered were 59 a/c but 7 a/c have been lost in accidents. the US$ 1.5 bill upgrade would include new advanced radar, avionics and BVR AAMs. the modernisation is said to be equivalent to Mirage 2000-9 standard.

3. Pentagon closes door on F-14 spares sales to Iran: US president signed into legislation prohibiting Pentagon from selling F-14 surplus spares to Iran. under this legislation 146 surplus F-14s are to be destroyed.

4. Boeing P-8i chosen by Indian Navy: india media is reporting that the indian defence ministry has entered exclusive commercial price negotations with Boeing to buy 8 P-8i Poseidan long-range MR&ASW a/c. the P-8i is a variant of the US Navy P-8A. all 8 are scheduled to enter service in 2015.

5. India seeks 57 more Hawk AJTs: IAF ACM has indicated in a recent interview that the IAF wants to purchase 40 additional BAE Hawk AJTs. he indicated that 66 a/c have been purchased which are below the original requirement of 122 a/c set over two decades ago.

6. India medium-lift helicopters sought: in jan-08 the IAF undertook trials of the Augusta-Westland AW-101 and the Sikorsky S-92 which are competing for a new medium lift and VIP transport helicopter. 4 - 30 passenger and 8 - 12 passenger VIP helicopters are sought. contract signature is expected in march-09. the new helicopters will replace Mi-8s currently being used in the VIP role.

*7. Pakistan inauurates JF-17 production:* * a formal ceremony took place at the PAC-Kamra to launch local maufacture of sub-assemblies for the joint chinese-pakistani JF-17 thunder multi-role fighter jet. the production line was inaugrated by ACM - PAF. he said that initially only final assembly, painting and flight testing would be undertaken in pakistan, all other stages being completed by chengdu in china. however as indigenous work on the type expands, it is planned to manufacture 60&#37; of the airframe and 80% of the avionics in pakistan by 2010. over the next year 8 a/c will be produced at the PAC kamra facility, followed by 15 in 2009 and reaching full-rate production of 25 a/c per year from 2010. the PAF intends to acquire 150 JF-17s in the initial phase of its agreement with china and plans to set up a JF-17 operational conversion unit by the end of this year.*

*8. Pakistan F-16s return to USA:* *arriving at lejas in the azores on Jan 11 were PAF F-16A (84713)(c/n SG-13, USAF/81-0911) and F-16B (82603)(c/n SH-3, USAF/81-0933) en-route to Hill AFB, Utah. both has their PAF nationality markings over-painted and wore both PAF and USAF serials plus the US "star and bar". support came from USAF/60th AMW/9th ARS KC-10A 83-0076. although it is un-confirmed, it is thought more than likely that they are to be used as pattern a/c for the PAF F-16 Mid-Life Upgrade (MLU) program now underway.*


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## EagleEyes

Good to see F-16s being upgraded in a fast pace. 2 of them have already gone through an upgrade i believe.


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## fatman17

WebMaster said:


> Good to see F-16s being upgraded in a fast pace. 2 of them have already gone through an upgrade i believe.



for each upgraded a/c (MLUed) and returned, PAF will swap another, meaning to say that the operational strength should be maintained. dont forget at the same time additional F-16s (embargoed) will also be delivered.

question still remains that is PAF going to simultaneously get their F-16s MLUed in Turkey(?) and what about in-house plans to upgrade them at Kamra once the technical capability is acquired.


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## EagleEyes

To me it seems Turkey plan is canceled, and now we are just going to do it in the U.S.A. No info on local upgrading is available, but we do know that much of the in-house capability had been available during the embargo.

Also check this out:

http://www.defence.pk/fighter-aircraft.html

See if it is correct and good.


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## fatman17

WebMaster said:


> To me it seems Turkey plan is canceled, and now we are just going to do it in the U.S.A. No info on local upgrading is available, but we do know that much of the in-house capability had been available during the embargo.
> 
> Also check this out:
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/fighter-aircraft.html
> 
> See if it is correct and good.



the definations, designations are correct and a great job. as far as qty is concerned the approximation also looks ok. for example - if my memory serves me right JDW indicates 227 mirages in PAF inventory. how many of these are operational is the open issue.

as far as F-16s are concerned. so far 6 have been further delivered. 32+6 = 38 (2 full sqdns of 18 ea)


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## IceCold

> *8. Pakistan F-16s return to USA:* *arriving at lejas in the azores on Jan 11 were PAF F-16A (84713)(c/n SG-13, USAF/81-0911) and F-16B (82603)(c/n SH-3, USAF/81-0933) en-route to Hill AFB, Utah. both has their PAF nationality markings over-painted and wore both PAF and USAF serials plus the US "star and bar". support came from USAF/60th AMW/9th ARS KC-10A 83-0076. although it is un-confirmed, it is thought more than likely that they are to be used as pattern a/c for the PAF F-16 Mid-Life Upgrade (MLU) program now underway.*



A question here. By the end of this year i think in october or november a new government will be in placed in the US. My question is that if for some reason US decides to put sactions on pakistan(i am not going into an argument whether they will or not, let us suppose they did) do they legally can withheld PAF's F-16s which will be in the US by then for the MLU or even if they again strip it down to its basic configuration and return it. Is it possible or not.


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## fatman17

IceCold said:


> A question here. By the end of this year i think in october or november a new government will be in placed in the US. My question is that if for some reason US decides to put sactions on pakistan(i am not going into an argument whether they will or not, let us suppose they did) do they legally can withheld PAF's F-16s which will be in the US by then for the MLU or even if they again strip it down to its basic configuration and return it. Is it possible or not.



icecold you make a good point and there is a similar example. france delayed delivery of sagem upgraded mirages in 98 we went nuclear but subsequently returned all 40 aircraft upgraded.

now one cannot predict what will happen but it is clear that with a new democratic (?) govt in pak and a new admn in the US, sanctions will not be the top of the mind issue, rather will pak continue to help/assist in the WoT and therefore such knee-jerk re-actions will not be in their interest. anyway the new admn wants to triple economic aid to pak, so also see positive movement on the FMS side too. remember McCain still has a good chance to win in november. its not going to be a cake-walk for the dems.


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## EagleEyes

> as far as F-16s are concerned. so far 6 have been further delivered. 32+6 = 38 (2 full sqdns of 18 ea)



When did the two more arrive?


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## fatman17

WebMaster said:


> When did the two more arrive?



sources say around Dec-07


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## IceCold

fatman17 said:


> icecold you make a good point and there is a similar example. france delayed delivery of sagem upgraded mirages in 98 we went nuclear but subsequently returned all 40 aircraft upgraded.



So wouldnt it be better if the upgrades would have took place in turkey instead of US? Or will sactions would have similar effect irrespective of where the jets are.


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## ejaz007

If we look at history then US Pakistan relations have flourished during dictatorship in Pakistan and detriorated during democracy. Example is US-Pakistan relations during Zia ul haq times when the two countries had good relations and Benazir-Nawaz Sharif-US times when we were put under sanctions.
What ever the situation I personally believe our best of relations time has passed and its back to business as usual. With democratic government coming in power in couple of weeks in Pakistan it will be difficult for them to accept all demands and to do business as was done by Musharaf. Sanctions might be on cards especially if Americans don't do good in Afghanistan. Then the blame shall be shifted to Pakistan. Lets wait and see.
As far as blocking F-16s is concerned every thing is possible. The only thing we need to do is to prepare our course of action in case of such an eventuality.


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## Proud to be Pakistani

*This was expected!*


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## JK!

The latest issue is well worth getting as there is a fantastic article on Cobra gunships operating in FATA.


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## fatman17

JK! said:


> The latest issue is well worth getting as there is a fantastic article on Cobra gunships operating in FATA.



we in pakistan have to wait until 1st week of April to get AFM.


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## JK!

fatman17 said:


> we in pakistan have to wait until 1st week of April to get AFM.



This article is excellent . It shows that despite all the talk by the west of Pakistan needing to do more decisive action is being taken.


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## fatman17

JK! said:


> This article is excellent . It shows that despite all the talk by the west of Pakistan needing to do more decisive action is being taken.



thanks JK - there was never any doubt in our minds!


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## fatman17

AFM News - April -08 issue:

1. French Rafales deploy to Kandahar: Feb-08. 3 Aramee del Air a/c have been posted at kandahar air base in support of ISAF ops. previously they were operating from air base in Tajikistan.

2. France was ready to transfer technology enabling Brazil to build the Rafale in that country as a follow-on to a deal to manufacture 50 Cougar helicopters and a Scorpene submarine in the south american nation.

3. Formal IAF Hawk induction ceremony: the BAE systems Hawk AJT was inducted into the IAF service at a formal ceremony at Bidar AF station on Feb-23-08. a total of 66 a/c are on order with the IAF considering a follow-on order for 40 a/c and the IN interested in a order for 17 a/c. total potential sales of the Hawk AJT reaching 106 + 17 for the IAF and IN respectively.

4. Sukhoi Su-35-1 Maiden Flight: the multi-role fighter for the Russian AF undertook its first flight on Feb-18-08. built at KnAPPO factory. the latest variant of the flanker family features a reshaped wing, 2 new advanced 31,967 Ib thrust NPO Saturn 117S engines, the Tikhomirov NHP ibis-E advanced phased -array radar and a latest generation infra-red search and track system. max weapons load will be 8,000 kg. 1st deliveries taking place from around 2010.

5. Back on the Beat: a very detailed article on the resumption of long-range bomber flights of the Russian TU-95MS Bear-H's in international airspace.

6.RAF at 90: a great Air Force report on the RAF with complete report on the deployment of various AF assets.

*7. Cobras over the Frontier: assessment of the PA use of the Cobra AH-1F in the fight to police the rugged tribal belt on Pakistans western border with Afghanistan. (will provide a detailed summary shortly)*


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## specialservices

i think there was only one Mi-24 which came across the border and it was defected, but later the chopper and the pilot was returned to the USSR.


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## fatman17

specialservices said:


> i think there was only one Mi-24 which came across the border and it was defected, but later the chopper and the pilot was returned to the USSR.



they r both still parked at samugli-quetta. they have afghan markings.


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## fatman17

AFM News - May-08 Issue:

1. Turkey has approved plans to purchase 100 F-35s: delivery will commence from 2012 and complete by 2021 @ 10 a/c per year.

2. J-11B enters PLAAF service: during early feburary the PLAAF took delivery of an initial two Shenyang J-11Bs. they have joined 1st DIV/1st REG at anshan. at three prototypes have been flying for some years. based on the SU-27SK, the J-11B has been redically modified with 90&#37; of its sub-systems produced in china. various chinese AAMs and ASMs are expected to be integrated onto the J-11B which will also be fitted with the chinese developed WS-10A taihang turbofan engine. this is said to be similar in technology and performance to the russian Lyulka-Saturn AL-31F. a two-seat version designated J-11BS is under development and testing.

3. Pakistan takes delivery of six more JF-17s:a further six chengdu JF-17 thunder a/c have now been delivered to the PAF following on from the initial two which arrived in pakistan last year. an official PAF announcement confirmed their delivery and said that they had been inducted into the PAF for test & evaluation flying (TEF) at the PAC-Kamra. four of them were scheduled to take part in the pakistan day flypast on march 23rd.
as previously reported local series production of the JF-17 in pakistan began recently. an initial batch of 150 a/c will be built. the 1st 50 with chinese avionics. the next batch will be fitted with indigenously developed avionics and european radar.

4. China begins production of Mi-17Is: production of Mil Mi-17Is helicopters in china appears to have started according to a press release from Chengdu. this confirmed the successful test flying of the 1st chinese assembled Mi-17I. the Chengdu helicopter facility is reported to be able to assemble 80 helicopters annually.

5. Pakistan AF Hercules diverts into oporto: PAF C-130E 4177 from 6 sqdn at chaklala diverted into oporto airport, portugal on march 12 onroute from lejas, azores to nice, france. it made a safe emergency landing after the no.1 engine failed. on march 15 L100 4144 arrived with a spare engine, equipment and technicians to carry out repairs.


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## niaz

Over the week-end I overheard an Indian Doctor at a friend's house.
He claimed that his son is working on a hush hush project for the USAF in California. I managed to strike a conversation with the gentleman and tried to know a little more about the project. 

The doctor said that all he knew was that this project involves building a laser gun whereby you target the antenna of the eneny plane with a concentrated microwave beam. Since nearly all of the future aircrafts will be "Fly by wire", microwaves will damage the computer managing the controls, causing the aircraft to crash.

I would presume antenna is needed by every aircraft to communicate with the ground control, thus every aircaft is vulnerable; this is truly science fiction stuff. Suppose Hon Murad would be able to elucidate a little more??


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## Quwa

niaz said:


> Over the week-end I overheard an Indian Doctor at a friend's house.
> He claimed that his son is working on a hush hush project for the USAF in California. I managed to strike a conversation with the gentleman and tried to know a little more about the project.
> 
> The doctor said that all he knew was that this project involves building a laser gun whereby you target the antenna of the eneny plane with a concentrated microwave beam. Since nearly all of the future aircrafts will be "Fly by wire", microwaves will damage the computer managing the controls, causing the aircraft to crash.
> 
> I would presume antenna is needed by every aircraft to communicate with the ground control, thus every aircaft is vulnerable; this is truly science fiction stuff. Suppose Hon Murad would be able to elucidate a little more??


Well couldn't issues of different frequency and range have an affect? Plus couldn't technology such as infra-red search & track (IRST) theoretically be developed for some form of communication?


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## fatman17

AFM JUNE NEWS / HEADLINES...STICKING TO PAF NEWS AS THERE IS PLENTY (KNOWN AND NOT KNOWN)

*1. Pakistan JF-17 Thunder Testing Continues:*
Chengdu JF-17 Thunder 08-107, one of six additional aircraft delivered to the PAF earlier this year taxies out from the JF-17 Test & Evaluation Flight (TEF) facility at PAC Kamra on April 21 during the ongoing flight trials with the type.

*2. First Saab 2000 Erieye Rolled Out for Pakistan:*
SAAB conducted a roll-out ceremony on March 27 at its Linkoping facility in Sweden for the first Saab 2000 Erieye airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) aircraft for the PAF, 10045 (c/n 045, ex-SE-045 and formerly LY-SBW with Lithuanian airlines). guest of honor was ACM Tanvir Mahmood Ahmad, the PAF's CAS.
Subject to successful completion of ground testing and other development work, flight testing was expected to commence within a matter of weeks. this will include testing basic aircraft systems, and opening up of the flight envelope, plus flight qualities, performance and flutter trials. *the aircraft has yet to have its full AEW&C mission equipment fit installed.*. this will be carried out later in the programme, enabling full mission system testing and verification to be completed. this will also include a full defensive aids suite with chaff dispensers, plus a linked electronics support measures system.
Six Erieye equipped Saab 2000s were originally ordered by the PAF under a contract signed in June 2006, but due to budget constraints, the number was reduced to five last year. *An initial aircraft without the full equipment will be delivered later this year to allow PAF aircrew to familiarise themselves with this type. *the first fully outfitted airframe will then enter PAF service in mid-2009, once all flight testing has been completed.

*3. Pakistan FT-5 Overhauls:*
Up to 25 PAF Guizhou FT-5s will go through a service life extension programme (SLEP) at the PAC Complex Kamra, to provide another 280 hours of operational flying. this will allow them to soldier on until around 2010, by which time the remaining K-8Ps will have been delivered to take over this role.

*4. Additional F27 and Alouette IIIs Enter Pakistan Navy Service:*
TWO Alouette III helicopters and a Fokker F27-200 Friendship were formally inducted into service with the PN during a ceremony at PNS Mehran on April 12. the F27 was one of three retired aircraft (AP-BAO c/n 10230, AP-BCZ c/n 10305, and AP-BDB c/n 10292) that had been acquired from PIA in May 2007 for spares use. it was later decided that only two will be cannibilised and the third would be refurbished for operational service. the latter has now been fitted with state-of-the-art sensors and weapons for use in maritime operations. it joins five F27s already in service with 27 squadron at mehran.
Six Alouette IIIs are being acquired in total, all being ex-french military. the remaining four are expected to arrive in Pakistan before the end of the year. they have been purchased through London, UK based MNA technologies ltd and are being converted to maritime configuration before delivery. the helicopters will be operated from PN ships in a variety of roles, joining eight of the type which are believed to still remain in sevice with 333 squadron at mehran.

*5. Pakistan Air Force PAF Officials Revealed:*
to AFM that four Embraer Phenom 300 business jets have been ordered in the VIP transport role. the Phenom 300 is a new light jet developed by the Brazilian manufacturer and the prototype made its first flight on April 29. first customer deliveries are expected in the second half of 2009 although it is as yet unclear when the first PAF aircraft is scheduled to enter service.

*6. Pakistan Anti Narcotics Force:*
accepted two Mi-171s at the Ulan-Ude aviation plant (UUAP) on March 31. they were scheduled for shipment to Pakistan during April. UUAP says it had delivered around 30 Mi-171s to Pakistan to date for use by its Army, Airforce and other services.


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## fatman17

AFM NEWS FOR JULY:

NOT MUCH ON PAF EXCEPT FOR F-16MLU UPDATE WHICH IS POSTED IN F-16MLU SECTION.

OTHER NEWS OF INTEREST:

sudanese MiG-29 flown by russian pilot shot down; claimed by JEM rebels using a large calibre machine gun

india issues RFP for 22 new attack helicopters: RFPs have been solicited from augusta-westland (AW 129 mangusta), Bell (AH-1Z super cobra), Boeing (AH-64D apache), Eurpcopter (Tiger) and Mil (Mi-28N night hunter and possibly with a Mi-35 new variant)

the YAK-130: the best school desk for modern AF pilots as claimed by Irkut Corporation.

Venezuela to buy NAMC K-8s as its arms purchases continue.they will replace the VAF Rockwell T-2D Buckeyes.

More poweful engines sought for indian LCA. LCA weight has gone up from ~8,000 kg to ~10,000 kg.

Further delays to Indian A-50Ehl (phalcon AWACS):the 1st delivery scheduled for sept-08 has been delayed to Q-1-09 due to parts un-availability from some vendors.

Flexing its muscles: great article and pictures on russia's may day parade celebrations. biggest event since the collapse of communism.


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## Contrarian

niaz said:


> The doctor said that all he knew was that this project involves building a laser gun whereby you target the antenna of the eneny plane with a concentrated microwave beam. *Since nearly all of the future aircrafts will be "Fly by wire"*,



All the current generation planes are fly-by-wire. The next generation of planes will be fly-by-light, wherein they use optical cables.


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## Munir

So I know there are laser/light connections and some electronic parts can do the same as electronic circuits but do believe me that there will be electronics and there will be generators... You can fly with anything you want but you cannot do everything with light... Unless DRDO start another ******** like comparing Akash with Amraam...


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## Contrarian

Munir said:


> So I know there are laser/light connections and some electronic parts can do the same as electronic circuits but do believe me that there will be electronics and there will be generators... *You can fly with anything you want but you cannot do everything with light... Unless DRDO start another ******** like comparing Akash with Amraam...*



Is it me or is the standard of this forum going down because of many esteemed members? I was merely discussing that the modern planes instead of using the old generation fly-by-wire technology, use fly-by-light technology. 

Where did i once bring in DRDO? You are trying to flame, and your post makes absolutely no sense.

Here, Do read the following:
Fly By Wire Vs. Fly By Light

AND



> *Gulfstream testing fly-by-light controls*
> 
> Just days after taking the wraps off the fly-by-wire G650 last month, Gulfstream revealed that it has successfully flown a GV testbed fitted with a fiber-optic &#8220;fly by light&#8221; (FBL) control system.
> 
> *The FBL technology that is being demonstrated on the testbed is actually a generation beyond the fly-by-wire (FBW) system* developed for the G650, Gulfstream said. Fly-by-light control systems use fiber-optic links instead of wires to transmit data from the flight control computers to the actuator control electronics. Besides being lighter, fiber-optic cables can transmit several channels of bidirectional information simultaneously.
> Gulfstream testing fly-by-light controls: AINonline



AND



> *C-MAC wins &#163;8m Eurofighter contract*
> 
> C-MAC MicroTechnology has announced it has won a major contract, expected to be worth around &#65533;8 million over the next five years, from Galileo Avionica to supply high-speed microelectronic and electro-optical modules for the Eurofighter Typhoon military aircraft, as well as the NATO NH90 and AgustaWestland EH101 Merlin helicopters.
> 
> C-MAC components based on the *Stanag 3910 optical data bus specification* will provide the interface between critical components of *Typhoon's advanced 'fly-by-light' control system*, including radio communications, altimeter, cockpit control and munitions computers. This optical system safeguards against jamming and other electromagnetic interference that can adversely affect the electrical data bus of conventional 'fly-by-wire' systems.
> 
> While fly-by-wire typically operates over a 1 Mbps data bus based on Mil-Std-1553, the Stanag 3910 optical system used in the Typhoon is designed for transfer rates 20 times as fast.
> 
> C-MAC wins &#194;&#163;8m Eurofighter contract - Arrow Altech Distribution (AAD) - Dataweek



This is just an example to show how ignorant you are and without understanding the discussion or contributing something to the discussion, you rant, you troll and you flame.


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## araz

malaymishra123 said:


> All the current generation planes are fly-by-wire. The next generation of planes will be fly-by-light, wherein they use optical cables.



Malay 
Could you please elaborate and explain to educate me . Oops sorry did not read your above post.
Munir ,In keeping with the traditions of this forum may I request you to kindly refrain from posts that could be construed as offensive.
Kind regards
Araz


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## JK!

araz said:


> Malay
> Could you please elaborate and explain to educate me .
> Kind regards
> Araz



Its like broadband internet instead of having copper wire cables these will use fibre glass strands about as thick as a strand of hair but will use light as a means of sending the signal faster and quicker.


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## nitesh

Hey malay, that is an excellent read. Any idea about Indian efforts about this tech?


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## Myth_buster_1

nitesh said:


> Hey malay, that is an excellent read. Any idea about Indian efforts about this tech?



that scientist is actually hired from DRDO for US... that means DRDO is a decade ahead in terms of this new tech.. china is no where close to it..


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## Super Falcon

rafales has been offered ti IAF OH crap can any body tell me where IAF is going hornets or rafales


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## Interceptor

JK! said:


> Its like broadband internet instead of having copper wire cables these will use fibre glass strands about as thick as a strand of hair but will use light as a means of sending the signal faster and quicker.



When you make glass thin as a few microns the glass becomes more flexible, however, fibre glass is really sensitive to wear, and once the outer cladding is slightly damaged the whole cable needs to be replaced, would that not be an issue when placing it in a battle system that will be prone to violent turbulence and attacks.


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## JK!

Super Falcon said:


> rafales has been offered ti IAF OH crap can any body tell me where IAF is going hornets or rafales



These are all the aircraft that have been offered to India for its MRCA requirement.

Russia: MiG 35 

France: Rafale 

US: F16 and F18

UK/Germany/Spain/Italy: Typhoon

Sweden: Gripen

Nothing is decided yet though.


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## JK!

Interceptor said:


> When you make glass thin as a few microns the glass becomes more flexible, however, fibre glass is really sensitive to wear, and once the outer cladding is slightly damaged the whole cable needs to be replaced, would that not be an issue when placing it in a battle system that will be prone to violent turbulence and attacks.



Its probably glass as you say thanks for the correction.


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## Myth_buster_1

EF-2000 and Rafale are out of the picture... just a show off game...
only real comparators are Mig-35 and Fa-18 all though Gripens still have good chance..


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## BATMAN

23march said:


> that scientist is actually hired from DRDO for US... that means DRDO is a decade ahead in terms of this new tech.. china is no where close to it..



fiber optic is very common technology used in various comercial products.
Most of the times all the components are made in asian countries including china.
optical medium is used to transfer all kind of data and control signals after converting in to light.
Even I can order any electronics company in same field in china or europe to prepare me an interface.


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## IceCold

23march said:


> EF-2000 and Rafale are out of the picture... just a show off game...
> only real comparators are Mig-35 and Fa-18 all though Gripens still have good chance..



Not even the MIG-35. Remember AESA is a must in India's requirement for MRCA and only the F-16s, the F-18s and Gripen fill this. Besides India has already initiated a program to upgrade its existing fleet of the Mig-29s which after the upgradation will resemble very closely to the Mig-35 in terms of performance, so nothing extraordinary would be achieved by going for the MIG-35s again.


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## BATMAN

malaymishra123 said:


> fly-by-light technology.


^^Just marketing gimick.
Nothing much of a technological breakthrough.
It may sound magic for some but fiber optical interface has been in commercial use as far back 15 years.
As I remember almost every factory in Pakistan have electrical products using fiber optic communications.


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## Myth_buster_1

BATMAN said:


> fiber optic is very common technology used in various comercial products.
> Most of the times all the components are made in asian countries including china.
> optical medium is used to transfer all kind of data and control signals after converting in to light.
> Even I can order any electronics company in same field in china or europe to prepare me an interface.



just to let you know... i was being sarcastic..


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## BATMAN

Interceptor said:


> When you make glass thin as a few microns the glass becomes more flexible, however, fibre glass is really sensitive to wear, and once the outer cladding is slightly damaged the whole cable needs to be replaced, would that not be an issue when placing it in a battle system that will be prone to violent turbulence and attacks.



There are both types available plastic optical fibers and glass optical fibers.
One can buy roles of any optical fibers without any hindrance at peanuts price.

Glass/Silica fibers are more ductile but once they are laid out their no reason that they would be bent buy it self.
It will not be a problem to use it in at least air crafts.

Glass fiber is less resistive to light hence can be used for long distances as compare to plastic optical fibers. Obviously speed is faster than electrical signal but looking at distance it dosn't matter much.

To me the major advantage of using optical fibers in short distances (within products) is that light signal cannot be disturbed by electro magnetic or any frequecy noise.
Again by using proper signal and data cables and production quality control, it is possible to eliminate any external influencnes in conventional conductors, specially in short distances.
Glass fiber also have higher operating temperatures.

In my opinion airframes having composite elements could be more **** to external interference in their signal cables from external. 
Antennas are definately week points and can serve as perfect interface from foreign interference.


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## Contrarian

araz said:


> Malay
> Could you please elaborate and explain to educate me . Oops sorry did not read your above post.
> Munir ,In keeping with the traditions of this forum may I request you to kindly refrain from posts that could be construed as offensive.
> Kind regards
> Araz



Just click on the links and read through them mate. It would explain everything.


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## Contrarian

BATMAN said:


> ^^Just marketing gimick.
> Nothing much of a technological breakthrough.
> It may sound magic for some but fiber optical interface has been in commercial use as far back 15 years.
> As I remember almost every factory in Pakistan have electrical products using fiber optic communications.



This is not a marketing gimmick. The bandwidth and the response time in addition to being resistant to EM pulses makes it a fine upgrade to the legacy planes. And i do know that fiber optical interface has been in commercial use for the past decade. And even India has its national telecommunication backbone now of fiber optics. This process of conversion of the national backbone STARTED in India about 7 years ago! And every damn telecom company is laying its own fiber optic network all over the country.

That does not mean that it is not an upgrade in the aviation industry. Having fiber optics for use for land and sea telecommunication is different from having it in a plane. Please use common sense. There is a reason why every plane manufacturer is moving towards it.


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## Super Falcon

can some body tell what fighter jet india is going for rafales or hornets plz did they siged deal or not yet if they are going with these than pak should go for gripen not much but 1 to 2 squadrons we ateast need to have 1 western fighter jet considering we have enrieye sweden can sell us these and gripen can make work better that with enrieye better than other fighter jet i dont mean other cant work better i just wanted to say gripens and enrieye are disgned to work better with each other may be im wrong


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## Munir

malaymishra123 said:


> Just click on the links and read through them mate. It would explain everything.



Sure, so we finally have no need for oil... We read a lot about Indian programs yet your side is not accepting that even if it is Indian source. So reading and engineering is not always the same...


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## blain2

BATMAN said:


> fiber optic is very common technology used in various comercial products.
> Most of the times all the components are made in asian countries including china.
> optical medium is used to transfer all kind of data and control signals after converting in to light.
> Even I can order any electronics company in same field in china or europe to prepare me an interface.



I agree. The bottom-line is that FBL systems afford greater bandwidth and/or speed in contrast to Copper based systems (which can match up the speed but require more real-estate). Overall for digital systems, Fiber (or FBL) technology works better. This is a minor eventual evolution of the FBW systems as the very first ones used exactly what was available at the time, I.E. Copper based.

With space being so tight on fighter aircraft, it makes sense to consolidate the speeds and feeds over Fiber instead of having to deal with bulky copper stuff. With copper you also have attenuation due to electromagnetic radiation etc., FBL/Fiber based systems work better here.

Here is a very succinct explanation by ATFS_Crash at F-16.net about the FBW vs FBL systems:



> Fly by wire and fly by light is essentially the same thing, the only difference in flyby light is the electrical signal is converted to light then back to be transferred over fiber optics. Fly by light is not faster. Light travels the same speed as electricity. In the world of data you can fit more bandwidth on fiber optic systems so in that way it could in theory be faster if the bandwidth was the limiting factor. The bandwidth needed for flight controls is very low so data backup is not very likely. Fly by wire systems are a little slower as they have another stage of conversion as they are an electrical signal before and after they are light. The key advantage to fly by light over of fly by wire systems can be more jam/ECM EMP resistant if built right. Long sensitive wires of fly by wire systems can act like antennas to pull stray signals, ECM, EMP and can more easily be jammed or damaged, so sometimes in a hostile environment fly by light is better.


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## Contrarian

Munir said:


> Sure, so we finally have no need for oil... We read a lot about Indian programs yet your side is not accepting that even if it is Indian source. So reading and engineering is not always the same...



What the hell are you talking about? Maybe im thick headed but i dont understand a word that your saying and in which context!

Secondly, there is no my side, there are my views and technical aspects which corroborate my views...nothing else.


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## fatman17

No major pakistan related news except:

Pakistan Acquiring 20 More T-37s (as already reported elsewhere on the forum)

Key Points:

PAF continues to acquire T-37s instead of new trainer a/c.
previous acquisitions include 29 T-37Bs and 39 T-37Cs but now have retired the older model T-37Bs. there were plans to transfer 19 T-37Bs to BanglaDesh some years back but they remain in storage in Pakistan.


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## Neo

There's also a nice picture showing seven out of eitght JF-17's delivered to Pakistan standing on the tarmac. The pictures shows full Technical and Test Evaluation Crew.


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## Muradk

NEO the editor has given me exclusive rights to post the photo on the forum , just the photo not the article. pl do the need full that mag in usa has a different version. no photo in USA addition.
mk

Editor had given me a few photos for the forum only. mailing them put your email water mark them .
hope you got email from Jr.

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## fatman17

Neo said:


> There's also a nice picture showing seven out of eitght JF-17's delivered to Pakistan standing on the tarmac. The pictures shows full Technical and Test Evaluation Crew.



holy cow! did i miss something here? which issue are u referring to?


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## HAIDER

Sir Murad and Neo where is the pics ???????????


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## Contrarian

fatman mate, could you please post India related news as well.


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## Myth_buster_1

malaymishra123 said:


> fatman mate, could you please post India related news as well.



indian news on indian section.

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## Myth_buster_1

AFM 2008 Nov

BLACK PANTHERS AT NIGHT
AFMs Alan Warnes gained exclusive access to 16 Squadron Black Panthers at Peshawar to see the A-5 Fantan flying operations at night.


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## fatman17

malaymishra123 said:


> fatman mate, could you please post India related news as well.



with pleasure - just give me a few minutes!


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## fatman17

23march said:


> AFM 2008 Nov
> 
> BLACK PANTHERS AT NIGHT
> AFMs Alan Warnes gained exclusive access to 16 Squadron Black Panthers at Peshawar to see the A-5 Fantan flying operations at night.



u guys in the west have the advantage of getting the mags 1-month in advance while we slobs in the 3rd world have to wait for 4-weeks. anyway thanks for the heads-up. it keeps me motivated.


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## fatman17

IAF News in AFM - October issue:

Indian Spice at Red Flag:
(Short description and pics of the deployment of SU-30MKI's detachment at Red Flag)
Key Points:
247-man contingent from the IAF arrived at Mountain Home AFB, Idaho for the type's first training deployment in the US.
The detachment comprised 8 SU-30MKI strike-fighters, 2 IL-78MKI tankers and an IL-76MD transport a/c.
The IAF detachment trained with Air Combat Command's 366th FW and F-16C's from the Agressor Sqd based at Eielson AFB, Alaska.
On August 6, all 11 a/c flew to Nellis three days before Red Flag Commenced. over the next 2 weeks, pilots from 20 Sqd flew in large Blue Force strike package in air2air and a2ground roles.
The IAF detachment used two Litening III ATP for all Red Flag missions.

other news:
Maharashtra Govt. Citation Excel 560XL (N783XL)(c/n 560-5783) delivered.

First HAL assembled Hawk Handed Over:
Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) handed over the first HAL assembled BAE systems Hawk Mk 132 AJT to the IAF during a ceremony in Bangalore on August 14, one of 42 that will be built under licence by HAL and follows on from 24 that were built in the UK.

AW101 Looking Good for IAF VIP requirement:
Augusta Westland's AW101 is emerging as the front-runner for the IAF requirement for 12 new medium lift VIP helicopters. however india's lenghty acquisition processes mean that is likely to be another 12 months before a firm contract is signed.

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## shehbazi2001

fatman17 said:


> No major pakistan related news except:
> 
> Pakistan Acquiring 20 More T-37s (as already reported elsewhere on the forum)
> 
> Key Points:
> 
> PAF continues to acquire T-37s instead of new trainer a/c.
> previous acquisitions include 29 T-37Bs and 39 T-37Cs but now have retired the older model T-37Bs. there were plans to transfer 19 T-37Bs to BanglaDesh some years back but they remain in storage in Pakistan.






About T-37s and K-8s...

From the very colorful, non-camoflague paint scheme of the academy T-37 and K-8s, it seems that they dont have at all any wartime role. If ever k-8s are flown even for some recce or BDA, they shall be very visible. 

Changing the paint scheme in emergency during wartime does not seem to be a practical option.


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## Munir

shehbazi2001 said:


> About T-37s and K-8s...
> 
> From the very colorful, non-camoflague paint scheme of the academy T-37 and K-8s, it seems that they dont have at all any wartime role. If ever k-8s are flown even for some recce or BDA, they shall be very visible.
> 
> Changing the paint scheme in emergency during wartime does not seem to be a practical option.



What do you want to acieve with K8 or T37? These planes are trainers. And trainers need to be very visible. During wartime you need fighters in the air.


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## Neo

fatman17 said:


> holy cow! did i miss something here? which issue are u referring to?



Sir its in the October "US" edition, a good friend sent me the picture by email.
But I'm waiting for my own copy so I can scan it myself with higher resolution.
I'll post them asap.



HAIDER said:


> Sir Murad and Neo where is the pics ???????????


Waiting for Sir Murad to email me the pictures.

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## haroonn

If I remember correctly, according to PAF official history 1988-1998, both FT-5s and K-8s have been wired for Sidewinders. They have a wartime role of airfield defence.
Haroon




shehbazi2001 said:


> About T-37s and K-8s...
> 
> From the very colorful, non-camoflague paint scheme of the academy T-37 and K-8s, it seems that they dont have at all any wartime role. If ever k-8s are flown even for some recce or BDA, they shall be very visible.
> 
> Changing the paint scheme in emergency during wartime does not seem to be a practical option.


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## fatman17

haroonn said:


> If I remember correctly, according to PAF official history 1988-1998, both FT-5s and K-8s have been wired for Sidewinders. They have a wartime role of airfield defence.
> Haroon



this things are done for "last-ditch" efforts.


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## Munir

Saudi EF2000 in Saudi colours (1001/zk060/cs001) 

2 seat LCA ready. First flight delayed from december 2008 to march 2009

Russia second su35 flown

2 more mi-171 for Pak anti narcotics force (total 4 now)

8 last Pak AH1F to be refurbished in the US. The remaining original 19 AH1S will be updated soon.

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## Munir

Much more important news....

China to accelerate air force modenisation 

China is likely to accelerate the modernisation of its fighter fleet over the next decade, and is looking to induct additional indigenous aircraft and order new types from Russia.

Beijing's Chengdu J-10 fighter was displayed publicly for the first time earlier this month at Airshow China 2008 in Zhuhai, where Chinese officials indicated that it would also develop new versions of the type. A B-model aircraft has already been proposed, with this to have a thrust-vectoring engine and an active electronically scanned array radar.

"The J-10 has been identified as the backbone of the Chinese air force. They will continue to increase the production rate and improve on the earlier version," says one observer. China has never revealed how many J-10s have entered service since 2006, but industry sources speculate that more than 100 have been produced from an eventual requirement for around 300.

A naval version of the J-10 is also on the cards, with sources saying that China hopes to get its aircraft carrier programme up and running in the next decade. But with an indigenous naval fighter expected to take too long to develop, China is reportedly negotiating with Russia's Rosoboronexport arms agency for an interim batch of 48 Sukhoi Su-33 fighters.

China has also shown interest in the Su-35, but could first place a significant order for Chengdu's FC-1/JF-17 fighter, which was jointly developed with Pakistan. Concurrently, Beijing is pursing several highly secretive studies to develop a stealthy fifth-generation fighter, and is also reportedly developing a stealth bomber, various unmanned air vehicles and indigenous powerplants.

Meanwhile, the air force's first cadre of eight pilots to graduate from the Chinese Flight Test Establishment finished their two-year course in mid-November, with each having received instruction on seven aircraft types and logged almost 1,000 sorties. 

http://www.flightglobal.com

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## EagleEyes

I think only after our base of JF-17 production is setup.. China will order for herself.


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## m15t3r7

plez can anybody give me news on J-11b... is Pakistan gonna buy or not and what is the situation right now?


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## Owais

m15t3r7 said:


> plez can anybody give me news on J-11b... is Pakistan gonna buy or not and what is the situation right now?



no chance for J11B as I said earlier that acquiring F16s and FC20s are PAF's main concern. may be we consider J11B after 2012

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## Feilhaber

Hi,Few years ago one of my school mate joined military, how to contact him? I dont know which division he is in.


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## fatman17

*AFM NEWS UPDATE - JAN-09*

*Afghanistan Receives Former Czech Hinds:*
Delivery of the first of six former Czech AF Mi-24V Hinds to the Afghan National Army Air Corps (ANAAC) has now commenced. the first three were loaded on to a Volga-Dnepr An-124 which departed for Kabul on November 30.

*J-10 Makes Public Debut at Airshow China:*
Two Chinese Peoples Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) Chengdu J-10As made the types public debut at Airshow China 2008, held at Zhuhai from November 4-9. the a/c from the 44th Division/131st Regiment at Luliang AB had flown into Zhuhai on October 22. both carried fixed refuelling probes just below the cockpit on the port side.

In addition to the J-10As, these included:
Xian H-6DU Tanker, Xian JH-7A, Shenyang J-8IIAs, Y-8, and the third prototype Hengdu L-15 jet trainer. Helicopters comprised Changhe Z-8, Harbin Z-9, and armed scout Changhe Z-11W plus army MiI Mi-17I.

*SAAB 2000* J-019 (c/n ex SE-019, FGMVB) was officially transferred to the Pakistan AF (PAF) on September 26 at Linkoping, Sweden from where it departed on its delivery flight to the PAF on September 29, routing initially to Donetsk, Ukraine and then Ashkhabad, Turkmenistan. *In standard passenger configuration, it will be used for transport and training prior to later delivery of the four Erieye airborne early warning and control variants of the type on order. the first Erieye variant is scheduled for delivery in mid-2009.*

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## Zob

J11B can not be bought by Pakistan even if we want to. The reason being that it is a copy of the Russian SU-27 and the Russians will never allow sale of J11B to Pakistan due to Indian pressure. However, if the Indians opt to buy the F-16's or the F18's..that might upset the Russians and they might allow the sale of J11B's. so to cut it short the Chinese don't have the licence to sell the aircraft to pakistan.

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## khanasifm

SIPRI Database

Trade Registers


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## Zob

i think this link shall help put the debate of J-11 export possibilites...as i sad earlier it is a copy of the sukhoi.
Sukhoi piracy: Russia warns to sue China

as thislink says russiawants to SUE CHINA for copying its aircraft. so it will never allow export due to indian pressure.

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## fatman17

Feilhaber said:


> Hi,Few years ago one of my school mate joined military, how to contact him? I dont know which division he is in.



PM MuradK - he can guide you!


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## maximus

PAF has its hand full with the production and induction of JF-17s. Not to mention the delivery and induction of FC-20. A fighter like J-11B might be a possibility in the future. PAF would do wise if it went for the J-XX instead of the J-11B.

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## Zob

by the way when will the delivery of AIM120-C5 start anyone has any idea?


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## fatman17

the BVR deliveries start in 2009 along with the MLUed F-16s and the Blk-52s (in the 2nd half of 09) so pakistan needs to behave itself. very crucial year this for the PAF.

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## hasang20

can we get KSA and UAEs airforce aircrafts if anychance of war they have lot of latest equipment and 80 F-16s with Block 60s


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## Owais

hasang20 said:


> can we get KSA and UAEs airforce aircrafts if anychance of war they have lot of latest equipment and 80 F-16s with Block 60s



you mean the equipment from pro US?? no chance! they fear US more than they love you

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## Super Falcon

friends i heared in 2006 that pakistan is planning to buy german Luna uav did our army got it or not and what are the plans of our army other than uqab and ababil


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## Super Falcon

The Pakistan army has finalised an order from Germany for the EMT LUNA short-range battlefield reconnaissance, surveillance and target acquisition UAV, according to the Jane's Defence Weekly.

Three or four systems are likely to be obtained in total, it said adding that details were not yet known.

Pakistan Air force is acquiring from Italy the Galileo Falco medium-altitude endurance tactical UAV, with delivery due in December. Four systems are involved in the deal at an unknown cost, the report said.

These systems are intended to enhance monitoring of border areas, with the movement of armed groups across frontiers with Afghanistan and Jammu and Kashmir causing particular concern.

The UAVs may also be used in Pakistan's campaign against militants operating in its tribal areas: the mountainous region adjacent to Afghanistan where over 80,000 troops are currently deployed.

The European system appears to offer an alternative to the US systems originally envisaged.

Pakistan sought to buy the RQ-1A Predator or other UAVs from the US in 2002 but the recent selection of European UAVs suggests that the US is as yet unwilling to provide the required export licences.


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## jawadqamar

Super Falcon said:


> friends i heared in 2006 that pakistan is planning to buy german Luna uav did our army got it or not and what are the plans of our army other than uqab and ababil



Out of 30 Luna UAV ordered for three systems in 2006 10 were in 2007 and remaining were delivered in 2008

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## fatman17

*AFM News for the month of Feburary-09:*
Pakistans First Two IL-78s Delivered?
Local reports state that the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) first two Ilyushin IL-78MP Midas tanker aircraft arrived on December 2 at Karachi/Jinnah International Airport. The PAF however say that they have not yet been delivered. They were the first of four brought from Ukraine to provide the PAF's first airborne refuelling capability.Once crews have been trained to air-to-air refuelling techniques, they will enter operational service, refuelling Pakistan's Mirages and also its new JF-17 Thunders.

A photograph issued by the PAF shows the aircraft with serials 76675 and 76682, although the image has clearly been mocked-up using older, retouched photographs. Assuming, However, that they have applied the "real" serials to this image, the aircraft should be ex-Ukraine Air Force IL-78 UR-76675 (c/n 00634 66998) and former civilian IL-76 UR-76682 (c/n 00634 67027). The latter was originally a Soviet Air Force IL-78, but later had its refuelling pools removed for operations by a civil airline.

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## shehbazi2001

The March 2009 issue of Air Forces Monthly has some interesting articles like "Indian Air Force Migs", Targeting of Gaza by IDF/AF, 1991 Gulf War F-15 Kills, USAF F-4 Drones in addition to the usual news section.

In the article "Indian Air Force Migs" however, there is an error on Page 46. A Mig-23BN is shown as Mig-23MF. I have informed the editor of Air Forces Monthly and have requested a feedback.

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## shehbazi2001

In the news section, for Pakistan, its that 8 K-8Ps have joined PAF, which has already been covered on this forum.

Algeria in a bold move, returned Mig-29s back to Russia because they were of inferior quality. These Mig-29SMTs will be "worked/upgraded" to join Russian Air Force.

WE already know about Indian deal for P-8I maritime aircraft but its important to know that India has a three-tier coastal surveillance system with P-8I as the outer most layer, BN-2 Islander as middle-layer and Israeli Searcher/Heron UAVs forming the third tier.

Its truely amazing that a boat of so-called terrorists penetrated all of the three tiers of coastal surveillance and were not detected. 

Currently the outer most layer is manned by Tu-142Ms. Tu-142s shall be replaced by P-8Is and BN-2s are being replaced and a new tender has also been launched in this regard, in addition to the acquisition of Dornier 228s for the middle tier.

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## JK!

There is a very good section on Indian MiGs


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## Myth_buster_1

shehbazi2001 said:


> The March 2009 issue of Air Forces Monthly has some interesting articles like "Indian Air Force Migs", Targeting Gaza, 1991 Gulf War F-15 Kills, USAF F-4 Drones in addition to the usual news section.
> 
> In the article "Indian Air Force Migs" however, there is an error on Page 46. A Mig-23BN is shown as Mig-23MF. I have informed the editor of Air Forces Monthly and have requested a feedback.



wow now that some news there.... IAF targeting gaza? can you please tell us more about it.. 
what a ****** iaf.


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## shehbazi2001

PC said:


> wow now that some news there.... IAF targeting gaza? can you please tell us more about it..
> what a ****** iaf.



It says a little about planning of the strikes and then the execution. Strike was as usual a surprise strike and was planned for Hanukkah vacation so that schools and offices etc were vacant in Israel.

They had already located targets but many targets of opportunity were also hit. Among the targets were also the tunnels which were attacked with GBU-28 penetration bombs.

One interesting detail in the article is that usually during a strike the Palestenians would gather over the roof of a building and the UAV overhead or pilot would visually pick up the civilians and would thus call off the strike. Unfortunately it says, this time it did not work. People gathered over a roof were considered a good and easy target.


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## Munir

I think the Israeli did attack something they already had terrorized for decades. It is a shmae that Airforced Monthly degrades itself to ISraeli propaganda. It is like making Tamil Tigers a hero while we all know that this group is purely terrorists funded by India.


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## Myth_buster_1

shehbazi2001 said:


> It says a little about planning of the strikes and then the execution. Strike was as usual a surprise strike and was planned for Hanukkah vacation so that schools and offices etc were vacant in Israel.
> 
> They had already located targets but many targets of opportunity were also hit. Among the targets were also the tunnels which were attacked with GBU-28 penetration bombs.
> 
> One interesting detail in the article is that usually during a strike the Palestenians would gather over the roof of a building and the UAV overhead or pilot would pick up the civilians and would thus call off the strike. Unfortunately it says, this time it did not work. People gathered over a roof were considered a good and easy target.



sir just to end my confusion, we are talking about "indian air force" not the Isreali air force? i will be dammm P***D if i find out indians were helping their masters zionists!


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## mean_bird

I think when we are talking about the Israeli and the Indian air forces, the Israeli one is referred to as IAF and the Indian one as InAF.

I am pretty sure the IAF being referred to here is the Israeli air force.


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## shehbazi2001

PC said:


> sir just to end my confusion, we are talking about "indian air force" not the Isreali air force? i will be dammm P***D if i find out indians were helping their masters zionists!



Sorry If my first post was not clear enough but its Israeli Air Force and not the Indian which carried out strikes in Gaza.


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## Zob

well my friends....firstly non of the muslim nations did anything for 26 days so i think we have also lost the right to object to such things as the ISRAELs attacking GAZA...the arabs cannot agree on anything and i don't know why they spend billions of dollars on defence i guess just to show off their equipment on independance day airshows....i suggest that all of them make a pact with PAKISTAN...that if anyone of them is attacked it will be like PAKISTAN was attacked...and instead of wasting billions buying equipmet that they never use...i suggest give it to PAKISTAN to enhance technology.... make a MUSLIM NATO....but ohhh well all we can do is CONDEMN....sorry state of affairs that muslims r in....coming back to the topic....instead of the Saudis buying EF2000s and instead of UAE buying the state of the art F-16s block 60s just give us the damn money and let us fast pace our nuclear program our fighter program and so on.!!! ohh well...i should stop dreaming now....


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## Hasnain2009

Yeah u are right, Muslim NATO with China!! But i m telling u US and Europe will not let it happen!!


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## nvidia

Missile maintenance system inaugurated

KARACHIAir Chief Marshal Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force, inaugurated the `Missile Maintenance Complex at a PAF Base in Karachi. An ISPR (PAF) statement said here on Thursday said that the Complex is a significant enhancement of PAFs engineering capability to support various missile systems. During the inaugural address, the CAS appreciated the personnel involved in the project for their professionalism and hard work to complete it within short time. The CAS hoped the complex would further strengthen PAFs defence capabilities.


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## fatman17

*AFM News for the month of March-09:*
Pakistan Army VVIP Mi-172
Pakistan Army Kazan Mi-172 is one of three outfitted in VVIP configuration for the Presidential transport role that were supplied in the second half of last year through International serospace management company Aviation Portfolio Management. At the same time the company also supplied the Pakistan Army with two Kazan Mi-17V-5s outfitted for medevac and SAR operations.

*Eight More K-8Ps Delivered to Pakistan*
A further eight Chinese Hengdu K-8P Karakoram jet trainers, serials 821 to 828, were handedover to the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) in a ceremoney at a unspecified PAF Base on January 16. The PAF original ordered an initial 12 K-8s in standard export configuration, the first six of which were delivered in January 1996.

Including the latest deliveries, a further 16 have now joined the PAF, all of these being to the upgraded K-8P standard. This variant includes a HUD and MFD making it suitable for weapons training role as well. All of the original 12 PAF K-8s will be progressively upgraded by PAC, Kamra to K-8P standard as they become due for overhauls. To date only one has been upgraded, but once the remainder have been completed the PAF will have a fleet of 28, all to the common K-8P standard.

The type is flown at the PAF Academy in Risalpur by the Advanced/Basic Flying Training Wing Squadron. It is most likely that the handover ceremony for the latest a/c took place at Risalpur.

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## omerhhh

So does anyone know when the J-10s are coming?

LONG LIVE PAKISTAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
and CHINA


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## araz

omerhhh said:


> So does anyone know when the J-10s are coming?
> 
> LONG LIVE PAKISTAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> and CHINA



as per the ACM 2014/15. This is the most logical time line in my humble opinion.
araz


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## omerhhh

araz said:


> as per the ACM 2014/15. This is the most logical time line in my humble opinion.
> araz



What!!!! 
They were supposed to be inducted this year

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## shehbazi2001

In the April 2009 issue of AFM, there is a good article on the South African Mirage F-1 operational use during war with Angolan Migs.

The first page shows a shot from the gun-camera film, while Mirage F1 is trying to shoot a Mig-23. Can someone explain the geometry of the fight or from which angle Mirage F1 is approaching the Mig-23?

It also describes a genius DC-3 pilot who, after losing the control surfaces due to SA-7 hit, moved the passengers backward and forward to control the airplane and land it.

On page 66, there again seems to be an caption error, which says "The small AIDA radar-ranging radomes can be seen just above the pilot head". I think AIDA radar was installed in the nose (like others) and radome was just above the pitot (head). So I think pitot and pilot got mixed up.


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## Arsalan

omerhhh said:


> What!!!!
> They were supposed to be inducted this year



it have been delayed!!

we wanted the upgraded J10 B, more precisiely the FC20 and it is not ready till 2014
infact i have heard that the chines are facing some problems with FC20,s engine and the radar! and Pakistan want to stick to the chines option for radar and engine as the european will be expensive and can be sanctioned at any time!!

well i cannot also wait to see them flying in Pakistani skies!!


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## Super Falcon

no need to do any more with J 10B


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## SQ8

Any idea about the IAF penetrating Pakistani airspace in the recent tensions and getting as far as kharian all while pursued by the PAF?


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## Keysersoze

arsalanaslam123 said:


> it have been delayed!!
> 
> we wanted the upgraded J10 B, more precisiely the FC20 and it is not ready till 2014
> infact i have heard that the chines are facing some problems with FC20,s engine and the radar! and Pakistan want to stick to the chines option for radar and engine as the european will be expensive and can be sanctioned at any time!!
> 
> well i cannot also wait to see them flying in Pakistani skies!!


Arslan I would suggest you post links, instead of mere conjecture. otherwise stop posting rubbish


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## Keysersoze

santro said:


> Any idea about the IAF penetrating Pakistani airspace in the recent tensions and getting as far as kharian all while pursued by the PAF?



There was some info we were given but I am not sure if it is out in the public domain. but trust me when i say you need not worry.


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## Munir

santro said:


> Any idea about the IAF penetrating Pakistani airspace in the recent tensions and getting as far as kharian all while pursued by the PAF?



I have read some BS on Keymags that the Indian crossed some 8 miles into Pakistan. Let say they fly 500 km/h... You just talk about seconds and even then they had to start turning in India otherwis it would me lot more problems.


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## SQ8

Well apparently our fighter even had a lock on them but they seemed determined to test the defenses.
Anyway.. it was all about defusing tensions back then. so this was not publicized.


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## fatman17

*AFM News for the month of May-09:*
AFM Editorial by Alan Warnes
*The Armed UAV Quandary in Pakistan's Tribal Areas*
I was in Islamabad during mid-March when a suicide bomber walked into a bus station in the nearby garrison city of Rawalpindi and blew himself up, killing eleven people and injuring another 23. Sadly, this is nothing new in Pakistan.

What was noteworthy about this particular attack was that the suicide bomber was from the Waziristan region, where USAF Predator and Reaper UAVs ("drones" as they are called in Pakistan) are attacking military targets on a daily basis. *Unfortunately these strikes are killing a lot of civilians as well as suspected al Qaeda or Taliban militants.*

*According to the World Security Network Foundation, an independent international network of journalists and foreign affairs experts, these UAV strikes have accounted for approximately 1,600 civilian casualties over the past six months whilist in the process of eliminating 11 of America's top 20 "high value" targets*. This appalling loss of life is causing civil unrest in the tribal areas of Waziristan and spreading anguish throughout most of Pakistan.

*UAVs are a vital tool in the global war on terrorism, but should they be used where civilians, including children, are likely to be killed?*

*Would it not be better to send in ground troops to attack targets as would have been the case before the armed UAV was operational?*

Before any military strike, a Collateral Damage Estimate (CDE) is carried out to establish the benefit of eliminating a key military target outweigh the risks to civilians. One example of an acceptable CDE was when the US tried to "take out" Saddam Hussein on April 7, 2003, after a tip-off that he was in a cafe. A B1B circling over the area at the time waiting for such a "target of opportunity", dropped four 2,000Ib (907kg) JDAM bombs on the building, claiming atleast 14 civilian lives, but Saddam got away.

The problem is in convincing most pakistani people that civilian casualties in Waziristan are justified under these conditions. Pakistan is in the frontline against the "war on terror" and to be able to defeat al Qaeda, the west needs the support of Afghanistan's eastern neighbour. However, feelings are running very high over the UAV attacks, as the regular TV debates between leading figures and politicians testify.It may be that the Pakistan Government will have to stop the US from carrying them out, otherwise it could risk being toppled by public opinion.

I saw evidence of this people power for myself on the first day of my recent visit, when thousands of protestors took to the streets and forced Pakistan's President Asif Ali Zardari - a US ally - to return the country's top judge and his associates to office, after they had been sacked by President Musharraf two years ago. *Dont bet against a similar action if the US continues killing innocent civilians in Waziristan*.


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## fatman17

*AFM News for the month of May-09:*
*Pakistan Takes Delivery of its First Phenom 100*
Embraer formally habded-over the first Phenom 100 business jet to the PAF at the manufacturer's headquarters in Sao Jose dos Campos, Brazil, on March 24. The eight-seat a/c is one of four ordered by the Pakistan Government for the transport of officials around the country. PAF officials had revealed plans to acquire the a/c last year and a formal contract was concluded during the fourth quarter, but had not previously been announced by the manufacturer. Note that original reports had suggested that the order would be for the larger Phenom 300, but it was the Phenom 100 that was settled on.

The a/c will be operated by 35 Wing/41 Sqdn at Chaklala AB for both VIP transport and general communications flights. They will replace two much smaller Cessna 172P Skyhawks currently operated by the squadron. The Phenom 100 is the first Embraer a/c to be delivered to a customer in Pakistan and the first of the type to be delivered to a government operator.

*New J-10B Variant Destined to be Pakistan's FC-20?*
Images that surfaced on Chinese internet sites on March 16 show what appears to be a new single-seat variant of China's Chengdu A/C Corporation J-10B, which is thought likely to be used as the basis for development of the FC-20 for the PAF. it is variously reported to have made its first flight either in December 2008 or February 2009.
New features appear to include a re-designed, divertor-less supersonic intake, infra-red search and track sensor, extra under-wing hardpoint, wide-angle halographic HUD, modified nose section (for a phased array radar?) and enlarged tail-fin (with tip mounted electronic warfare sensor)

A great article on F-16 Flight. of interest to forum members would be the following:
*Air to Air Kills*
According to its manufacturer Lockheed Martin, the F-16 has been responsible for shotting down 71 aircraft, 44 of which were Syrian Air Force a/c destroyed by Israeli F-16As during the 1982 Lenanon war.
However, despite Lockheed Martin claiming that no F-16s have been shot down, Pakistan Air Force (PAF) records say that on April 29, 1987 Wg Cdr Amjad Javed, CO of 14 Sqdn, accidently shot down his wingman, Flt Lt Shahid Sikandar, while they were both chasing two Afghan fighters. Fortunately Flt Lt Shahid was picked up shortly afterwards and by nightfall was back with his CO, much to his relief.
PAF F-16s have been responsible for shooting down eight Afghan Air Force a/c and an Indian Air Force Searcher UAV.

*Hawkeye Soldiers On*
International Hawkeye Operators
Besides Egypt, France, Israel, Japan, Mexico, Singapore, Taiwan and the United States, Pakistan is the latest country to operate the Hawkeye.
PAKISTAN - PAKISTAN AIR FORCE
Though not strictly an E-2C operator, Pakistan plans to fly the Hawkeye 2000 radar on the Lockheed Martin P-3 Orion. In December 2006, it ordered three re-furbished P-3s with Hawkeye 2000 radars for its Navy. Delivery will take place in 2009-10.


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## mean_bird

So now AFM, Janes, etc have started taking information from forums and websites?


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## fatman17

mean_bird said:


> So now AFM, Janes, etc have started taking information from forums and websites?



meaning?


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## Munir

mean_bird said:


> So now AFM, Janes, etc have started taking information from forums and websites?


 
If you were here a decade ago it was not much different. We had more info on the web then AFM published. Now with China opening up we see that we are more up to date then AFM. Last edition showed j10B but AFM is that uninformed that they do not see that it is the PS one... Does it matter? The AFM published pics of tornado's, Harriers, F16 so often that something else is always better. The worse thing about AFM is that they puiblish western propaganda. Tamil Tigers are never marked as terrorists yet Sadam or other mulsims are usually bashed. If people protest then it is the writer and the opinion is fine... The objectivity and pure information is gone after Irac...


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## mean_bird

fatman17 said:


> meaning?



These are commercial establishments and quite renowned especially janes. They normally do have access to high-up officials, correspondents, etc and one would probably guess they could confirm information even if details are mentioned as speculated. 

Not saying that this is not true, but to have a whole news based on internet forums seems like un-professional..well atleast to me.


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## Munir

mean_bird said:


> Not saying that this is not true, but to have a whole news based on internet forums seems like un-professional..well atleast to me.



Everybody knows that it is cheaper to have less journalists so if you can copy paste news items then you can lower your costs. These kind of logics seems to be reason behind journalism that runs behinds government propaganda. It happened with Irac where newspapers copied what US propaganda said. It happened even more controlled when the inbedded journalists onl wrote that what was allowed. Now, do you think that Janes or AFM do the old fashioned way? Just check those that write the articles... Some of them I know. And it is long time ago that they reall posted somethind worth to read. A few years back they wanted a few topics about AAM's. How come after the first article no follow up was printed...? Now they want something about F16 fight... Well, I read nothing valuable in the whole article.

The problem is that newspapers are instruments for others. If that means that we have to believe that the F16 seat is more angled so better is fine... If you know that the reason is that you need less frontal space and that means less power being wasted then you do understand that Chuck Yeager was telling the only truth...


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## fatman17

Munir said:


> If you were here a decade ago it was not much different. We had more info on the web then AFM published. Now with China opening up we see that we are more up to date then AFM. Last edition showed j10B but AFM is that uninformed that they do not see that it is the PS one... Does it matter? The AFM published pics of tornado's, Harriers, F16 so often that something else is always better. The worse thing about AFM is that they puiblish western propaganda. Tamil Tigers are never marked as terrorists yet Sadam or other mulsims are usually bashed. If people protest then it is the writer and the opinion is fine... The objectivity and pure information is gone after Irac...



then why do you keep purchasing AFM?
IMHO it is the most updated airforce magazine available anywhere and if you have some extra cash buy the airforce intelligence website. it will open your eyes to the vast information data available there!

finally you dont have to believe everything they print! they make errors just like everyone else!


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## fatman17

Munir said:


> Everybody knows that it is cheaper to have less journalists so if you can copy paste news items then you can lower your costs. These kind of logics seems to be reason behind journalism that runs behinds government propaganda. It happened with Irac where newspapers copied what US propaganda said. It happened even more controlled when the inbedded journalists onl wrote that what was allowed. Now, do you think that Janes or AFM do the old fashioned way? Just check those that write the articles... Some of them I know. And it is long time ago that they reall posted somethind worth to read. A few years back they wanted a few topics about AAM's. How come after the first article no follow up was printed...? Now they want something about F16 fight... Well, I read nothing valuable in the whole article.
> 
> The problem is that newspapers are instruments for others. If that means that we have to believe that the F16 seat is more angled so better is fine... If you know that the reason is that you need less frontal space and that means less power being wasted then you do understand that Chuck Yeager was telling the only truth...



sounds like sour grapes if you ask me! dont spend your hard-earned Euros on it - simple!


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## fatman17

mean_bird said:


> These are commercial establishments and quite renowned especially janes. They normally do have access to high-up officials, correspondents, etc and one would probably guess they could confirm information even if details are mentioned as speculated.
> 
> Not saying that this is not true, but to have a whole news based on internet forums seems like un-professional..well atleast to me.



they do! and print information only after verifying the news/information! they may not be 100% accurate but my experience shows that they are 85-90% correct and a lot of people around the world buy their products! they must be doing something right!


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## Munir

Well, There is always someone that likes the ugly car... About euro's. I have probably enough so I can spend even on this...

If a mag has almost zero technical info then I see it as page three but then about fighterjets...


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## fatman17

Munir said:


> Well, There is always someone that likes the ugly car... About euro's. I have probably enough so I can spend even on this...
> 
> If a mag has almost zero technical info then I see it as page three but then about fighterjets...



to each his own mate - i dont have a personal stake in this discussion!


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## fatman17

June issue of AFM has the following article;

*HIMALAYAN SHOWDOWN*
May 2009 marks the tenth anniversary of the Kargil Conflict when Pakistan and India came very close to all-out war. *Air Cdre (Ret&#8217;d) M Kaiser Tufail *shares his amazing *personal insights* on the role of the Pakistan Air Force during the battles that raged over the mountains


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## mean_bird

fatman17 said:


> June issue of AFM has the following article;
> 
> *HIMALAYAN SHOWDOWN*
> May 2009 marks the tenth anniversary of the Kargil Conflict when Pakistan and India came very close to all-out war. *Air Cdre (Ret&#8217;d) M Kaiser Tufail *shares his amazing *personal insights* on the role of the Pakistan Air Force during the battles that raged over the mountains



That article can be read at the author's website Aeronaut

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## blain2

Alan Warnes' book on Pakistan Airforce 1998-2008 will be available for sale from June 01, 2009. To place on line orders, you can go to the following link:

Key Publishing Limited Books



> Set over 200 pages packed with 600 photos, you'll learn all about the fighters, the squadrons, the people, the combat training, and the history and future of one of the world's most significant air forces.

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## fatman17

*AFM News - June Issue*

Pakistan Air Force Saab 2000The relatively new Saab 2000, aircraft J019, ex SE-019, F-GMVB has been handed over to the PAF on September, 26 in Sweden before leaving on delivery on September 29. It is now based at Chaklala, undertaking training of aircrew for the first Saab 2000 Erieye, which is due for delivery to the PAF later this year.

Pakistan AF Phenom DeliveryPhenom 100 PT-ZYE (c/n 50000017) the first for the PAF has now completed its delivery flight to Pakistan and will become V-4101 for operation by 41 Squadron at Chaklala AB. the a/c was handed over on March 24 at the factory in Sao Jose dos Campos. Although fully painted in PAF markings at the factory, for its delivery flight, these were taped over. the a/c is one of four on order for VIP transport and general communications flights.
After leaving Brazil, its delivery flight included stops at Guyana, Netherlands Antilles on April 4, the following day the a/c flew via Turks and Caicos Islands, Fort Lauderdale, Florida, leaving on April 6 via Norfolk, Virginia and Bangor, Maine to Goosebay, Newfoundland. On April 7 it left for Greeland, then flew on to Reykjavik, Iceland and Wick, Scotland. the next day on April 9 the route continued via Geneva, Switzerland to Athens, Greece, then on to Sharm el-Sheik, Egypt on April 14 before the final leg to Pakistan.

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## nightcrawler

NEW DELHI, May 28 (RIA Novosti) - The first Russian-made A-50 Mainstay AWACS aircraft developed on the basis of Il-76MD military transport plane officially entered service on Thursday with the Indian Air Force (IAF).

India ordered three A-50EI variants fitted with Israeli-made Phalcon radar systems in 2001. The first aircraft was scheduled to arrive in 2007-08 but has been subject to delays.

"Today we became one of the few chosen countries to possess this kind of plane [AWACS]," IAF commander, Air Chief Marshal Fali Homi Major said at the commissioning ceremony.

According to some sources, the second of the A-50EI planes is expected to be in India by early 2010, with the third by the end of next year.

The aircraft will be deployed in Agra with the IAF's 50 Squadron under the Allahabad-based Central Air Command but will be assigned tasks directly by Air Headquarters.

In many aspects, the A-50 is comparable to the U.S. Air Force's E-3 Sentry. It is fitted with an aerial refueling system and electronic warfare equipment, and can detect targets up to 400 km (250 miles) away.

The existing Russian-Indian military-technical cooperation program until 2010 includes up to 200 projects worth about $18 billion.

However, bilateral military-technical ties have been overshadowed by recent spats over problems with delivery delays, supplies of spare parts, poor sales support, steep maintenance costs and technology transfer issues.

For instance, India dropped Russia from a $1-bln tender to supply six aerial tankers for the Indian Air Force due to poor after-sales maintenance services and is most likely to look for another manufacturer for future AWACS orders to satisfy its needs for early warning aircraft.

India has recently purchased eight Boeing P-81 long-range maritime reconnaissance (LRMR) aircraft from the United States, and signed a deal with Brazil to jointly integrate domestically developed AWACS systems into three Brazilian-made Embraer-145 aircraft to be later commissioned with the Indian Air Force.

First Russian AWACS plane put in service with Indian air force | Top Russian news and analysis online | 'RIA Novosti' newswire


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## fatman17

*AFM News - July issue*
Tusas Gains Pakistan AF F-16 Upgrade Contract
Turkish Defence company TAI signed a contract on June 29 in Rawalpindi, Pakistan, with PDPM to undertake the upgrade of 42 PAF F-16 fighters. Under the $75 million deal, TAI will begin work on the first a/c in October 2010 and all 42 fighters will be completed at its facilities within 46 months, at a rate of 1 aircraft per month.
*In a effort to accellerate its F-16 upgrade programme, the PAF gained agreement from Washington last year for the transfer of FMF funding previous allocated for Pakistani AH-1F Cobras and P-3C Orion upgrades to finance PAF F-16 mid-life upgrade (MLU) work.* TAI had been selected for the upgrade work in 2006 and a MoU to this effect was signed between TAI and the PAF in September of that year at the IDEAS Defence Exhibition in Karachi, Pakistan. TAI was then formally announced as the main contractor for the MLU in July 2008, following a final evaluation by Pakistani authorities.

Embraer has recently completed delivery of the *second Phenom 100 *to the PAF. the a/c PT-ZVB (c/n 50000014), routed from Goose Bay via Gander to Sandra Stromford on June 19, then on to Reykjavik, from where it flew to Wick, Scotland, on June 20 and left the next day for Geneva. The first PAF Phenom was delivered in March.

The PAF Air Chief Marshal Qamar Suleman confirmed on June 27 that *full-scale series production of the JF-17 Thunder fighter was expected to start in Pakistan on June 30.* He said the first locally assembled example should be flying in Pakistan by the end of the year.

US Army Supplying More Helicopters to Pakistan
US Special Envoy to Afghanistan and Pakistan, Richard Holbrooke, announced on June 3 that the US is supplying four Russian-built Mi-17 Hip transport helicopters on lease to the Pakistan Army. They will be used to bolster the existing fleet in support of the fight against the taliban in the country's lawless northwest territories.
*Although the Pakistan Army already operates around 30 Mi-17-IV Hip-Hs, ongoing fleet refurbishment has led to a shortfall in availability, which led Pakistan to request additional helicopters from the US. The type has proved ideal for the current counter-insurgency operations in the Swat Valley.*
The four Mi-17s are being provided from the inventory of the US Army, which has a small number operating with A Company / 3-210th Aviation at Biggs Army Air Field, Texas. At the time of the announcement, two were already at Ramstein AB, Germany, awaiting shipment, while the other two were in Slovakia. *They were then air-freighted to Pakistan on an AN-124 Ruslan transport aircraft, with all four arriving at Chaklala AB, Pakistan on June 10.*

*A possible additional five Bell 412EP helicopters may also be supplied to the Pakistan Army.* The Pentagon is known to be persuing various options to provide Pakistan with additional helicopters. With the 412EP already in Pakistan Army service, provision of additional examples would make sense.

_now we know why there have been no additional deliveries of the P-3C Orions to the PN. only 2 a/c out of 8 have so far been delivered._

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## fatman17

UAE Begins Puma Fleet Retirement
Retirement of the UAE AF Aerospatiale SA 330SM Puma fleet has now begun. *Unconfirmed reports suggest that these have been purchased by Pakistan Army to be cannibalised to support its own Puma fleet. A total of six helicopters are going to Pakistan.*

*AFM-July*


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## EagleEyes

Did any of you bought the book Pakistan Air force 1998-2008. I wonder how it is.


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## fatman17

WebMaster said:


> Did any of you bought the book Pakistan Air force 1998-2008. I wonder how it is.



yes - great pics (nearly 600) and good update on PAF!

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## Kasrkin

I looked for it everywhere in Karachi, but didn't find it. The guys at _Liberty Books_ told me that they'll have it in a month, so I've decided against ordering online for the time being. It should be awesome.


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## Skywalker

WebMaster said:


> Did any of you bought the book Pakistan Air force 1998-2008. I wonder how it is.



I have ordered this book about a week back, but hasnt received as yet.


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## fatman17

Kasrkin said:


> I looked for it everywhere in Karachi, but didn't find it. The guys at _Liberty Books_ told me that they'll have it in a month, so I've decided against ordering online for the time being. It should be awesome.



its in its 3rd printing run - thats why the delay - i waited 1-month for it to be delivered (on-line order)


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## mean_bird

fatman17 said:


> yes - great pics (nearly 600) and good update on PAF!



Anything about JF-17 that we do not know already?


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## Arsalan

something new in it that has not been under discussion here??
i mean something about the AWACS, JF17 or the J10 projects??

regards!


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## EagleEyes

If the book has lots of information about aircrafts, weapons, etc.. I will surely buy. What about information on squadrons, structure, etc.?


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## blain2

WebMaster said:


> If the book has lots of information about aircrafts, weapons, etc.. I will surely buy. What about information on squadrons, structure, etc.?



I got mine in June. Plenty of pictures and this time in colour vs B&W in the older books. If you have read the previous two "Story of the PAF" books, you will find the book similar. Updates on all of the PAF sqns since where the previous one left off. Quite a bit of news on upgrade plans. One thing to keep in mind is that if you have been reading the very many AFM articles written by Alan Warnes, you will see the text being lifted from the articles into the new book. I have pretty much all of the AFMs whenever there has been a PAF article in it by Alan Warnes. He has used a bit of the content from his AFM articles in the book. But there is considerable new material as well. 

Pictures are fresh. Some have been seen on the web already, most have not. I bought the book because it really is a nice book for one's collection.

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## blain2

mean_bird said:


> Anything about JF-17 that we do not know already?



The book is split up into chapters like the "Western Fighters", "Chinese Fighters" etc. etc. However there is an entire chapter on JF-17 which actually puts all of the various pieces of information that we have read over the years in one place inside of a single book.

Some of the close up shots, specially the back cover shot is amazing frontal view of the JF-17. The aircraft really looks splendid. The other nice thing is the various air-to-air shots of various platforms. I really liked one of a Mirage IIID spitting out flares.

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## fatman17

*Read in the October issue of AFM*


*SWEDISH STUNNER
Jan Jorgensen examines the evolution of the Saab MFI-15 Safari/17 Supporter and Alan Warnes looks at its Pakistani derivative, the Mushshak.*

SIX OF THE BEST: TOP SIX FIGHTERS
Robert F Dorr selects his personal top six US fighters.


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## DANGER-ZONE

A ROSE-III upgraded Mirage-5 photographed against stunning Himalayan backdrop. 
enjoy



and a mirage3 at Masroor airbase karachi,looks so cool.

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## abbasniazi

Beautiful Pics, no doubt, i wish there were more like these, i don't have the book in question but i'd like to ask those who have, is there anything specifically new about PAFs future plans?

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## MALIKATIF

Blackwater said:


> there are no Hind type helicopter ever seen flown by Army. But, yes i hav seen pictures on Pakaviation.com, of Hinds in PAF markings.



YES I HAVE ALSO SEEN


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## MALIKATIF

WebMaster said:


> Did any of you bought the book Pakistan Air force 1998-2008. I wonder how it is.



NO AUTHOR STILL NOT


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## MALIKATIF

fatman17 said:


> so the author is correct!



YES BROTHER

---------- Post added at 04:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:34 PM ----------




WebMaster said:


> If you go to PAF Faisal, you will see a junked Mi-24 hind, in the far backyard. I have it in the gallery. Check it out. PA operated them for sometime, but lack of spares leaded them to be unoperatable.



AUTHOR FROM WHERE I CAN ABLE TO SEE


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## MALIKATIF

Blackwater said:


> Is there any news, that PAF is also planning to induct Bell 412 as SAR helicopter, so as to replace vintage Alouette IIIs?



NO BROTHER THERE IS NO SUCH NEWS FROM PAF MEDIA PRESS RELEASE


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## Wingman

Questions:

1) What is the cost of the books?
2) What is the procedure of online order?


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## fatman17

WebMaster said:


> If the book has lots of information about aircrafts, weapons, etc.. I will surely buy. What about information on squadrons, structure, etc.?



complete update on training, western a/c, chinese a/c, radar systems (C4), squadrons, bases, war heroes etc


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## fatman17

AFM News - January 2010.

*JF-17: Dreams Into Reality*

Amongst all the bad news coming out of Pakistan in late November, there was one bright spot: the roll-out of Pakistan's first locally assembled JF-17 Thunder fighter aircraft. At a time when Pakistan was witnessing almost daily suicide bombings in the NWFP, continued domestic apathy towards the Pakistan government as well as a huge corruption scandal, it was great that something good was happening in a state where the only news appears to be really bad news. Pakistan TV and all national newspapers are full of nothing but gloom - talking the nation into a frenzy.

I was fortunate enough to be one of two foreigners invited to the unveiling of this Chino-Pak project on November 23 - *the other being the joint Managing Director and Chief Designer at Martin-Baker, which is supplying the ejection seats. **The aircraft 09-111, had only entered final assembly in June and emerged just four months later, in late October, from the PAC production line. By the time the aircraft had been officially rolled-out, it had flown four times and gone through a couple of taxi tests before entering the paint shop in preparation for its grand unveiling*.

The close relationship between Pakistan and China, two nations that need each other for differing military reasons, is impressive. China has the industrial know-how for building military aircraft, but Pakistan can add the guile and sophistication to their platforms following years of working with western technologies. This great military partnership has been evolving since 1965, when the US slapped sanctions on both India and Pakistan in the wake of the Pak-India war that year.

China has also provided some very good financial credit to its ally for the JF-17 project at extremely favourable terms, ensuring that Pakistan's aerospace industry can benefit from the transfer of skills and technology.

*In an age when COIN role is taking on an increasingly important status in and around Pakistan, the PAF's tactical doctrine, particularly with its current operations in striking Al-Qaeda and other militant groups in the Swat valley and Waziristan, is now evolving rapidly. So much so, that the PAF Chief has now stopped, temporarily, all CCS Courses and instead every fighter unit is now going through a COIN excercise known locally as Saffron Bandit. By the end of Feburary 2010, all the squadrons will have participated, and, undoubtedly, the forward thinking PAF Leadership will ensure that any capability shortfall or tecnology gaps in the current platforms 'Close Air Support' role will not be found lacking in the multi-role JF-17 when it reaches maturity.* 

The PAF dream of having its own indiggenous fighter is now turning into reality. Let us hope that Pakistan's dream of ridding itself of extremism also turns into reality....and soon.

_AFM Editorial_

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## fatman17

*Pakistan's First IL-78 'Midas' Breaks Cover*

Ilyushin IL-78 Midas *R09-001*, the first for the Pakistan Air Force (PAF), during a crew sortie on November 14 at Kulbankino-Nikolav Air Base in Ukraine. The aircraft was due for delivery to the PAF in December.

*Pakistan Army Mi-17s Complete Overhaul in Prague*

Pakistan Army Mi-17Vs 58628, 58634, 58632 on the ramp at Pardubica Air Base, Czech Republic, on October 20 being prepared for return home after overhaul by LOM Praha. On November 8, they left on Russian Air Force/224th LO An-124-100 RA-82028 for Pakistan, where they were seen a week later in service with 27 Squadron at Qasim.

Lockheed Martin was awarded a US$ 44 million FMS contract on November 23 through the US Naval Air Warfare Center to upgrade seven (7) Pakistan Navy P-3C Orions. Modifications will involve replacement of obsolete and unsustainable avionics systems currently installed with more modern equipment which will also provide increased capabilities, reliability and sustainability for future operations. Installation will be undertaken at the company's facility in Greenville, South Carolina.

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## Super Falcon

A two-seat light trainer aircraft, the Pilatus PC-7 turbo was built by Pilatus Aircraft Ltd in Switzerland. The PC-7 can perform various functions including aerobatics and tactical and night flying. The PC-7 can accommodate a crew of two members (a student and trainer) and has six underwing hardpoints.

The PC-7 has been selected by 20 air forces to train military pilots. The aircraft is fully operational in civil and military pilot training bases across the world. It is equipped with a single Pratt and Whitney PT6A-25A turboprop engine. The first series of PC-7 aircraft was delivered to Myanmar Air Force in 1979.

The PC-7 received Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) and Federal Office of Civil Aviation (FOCA) certifications to support European and US regulations.

Orders and deliveries

About 450 PC-7 aircraft have been sold to 21 countries. Mexico procured 88 PC-7s, deliveries of which began in 1980. About 52 PC-7s were bought by Iraq and deliveries began in 1980. The Iraqi PC-7 fleet was completely eliminated during the US invasion in 2003. Malaysia acquired 44 PC-7s, deliveries of which began in 1983.

Other Pilatus PC-7 customers include the Swiss Air Force (40), Angola (27), Austria (16), Bolivia (24), Bophuthatswana (three), Botswana (seven), Chile (ten), France (five), Guatemala (12), Iran (35), Myanmar (19), Netherlands (13), UAE / Abu Dhabi (31) and Uruguay (six).

Deliveries to Angola began in 1982 and those to the Swiss Air Force began in 1986. Deliveries to Austria, Bolivia, Bophuthatswana, Botswana, Chile, France, Guatemala, Iran, Myanmar, Netherlands, UAE / Abu Dhabi and Uruguay began in 1984, 1979, 1989, 1990, 1980, 1991, 1980, 1983, 1979, 1989, 1982 and 1992 respectively.

Development

The PC-7 was derived from the Pilatus P-3 training aircraft, which was launched in the early 1950s.

"The PC-7 can perform various functions including aerobatics and tactical and night flying."The modified P-3 prototype first flew on 12 April 1966. The PC-7 development programme was, however, held back when the prototype crashed due to forced landing.

In 1973 the programme resumed using a modified engine and the new aircraft was named PC-7. The PC-7 prototype completed its maiden flight on 12 May 1975. The PC-7 aircraft also features a new one-piece wing with integral fuel tanks, an altered tailfin and a bubble canopy. The first produced PC-7 made its maiden flight on 19 August 1978.

Variants

The PC-7 has two variants: PC-7 MkII and NCPC-7. The PC-7 MkII variant is also known as the Astra. South Africa's requirement for an advanced version of the PC-7 aircraft led to the development of PC-7MkII. The variant was derived from the PC-9 M aircraft, the M denoting the aircraft's modular features. The PC-9 M aircraft is powered by a Pratt and Whitney PT6A-62 turboprop engine that provides 863kW of output power.

The variant is equipped with advanced avionics and on-board oxygen generation system (OBOGS). The PC-7 MkII aircraft comprises only two underwing hardpoints, unlike the PC-7's six underwing hard points.

The first PC-7 MkII aircraft took its maiden flight in August 1994. The first delivery of the variant was made to the SAAF in November 1994. About 60 PC-7 MkII aircraft were delivered to SAAF by 1996.

The NCPC-7 was developed by upgrading the standard PC-7. New features included a glass cockpit, GPS, autopilot and a second VHF radio. The NCPC-7 was developed for the Swiss Air Force for training pilots. About 18 PC-7 aircraft were upgraded to NCPC-7 and a contract for upgrading ten more was signed in February 2008.

Cockpit and avionics

The PC-7 MkII features a dual glass cockpit. It is equipped with primary flight display (PFD), secondary flight display (SFD), an engine and secondary instruments display panel (ESDP), an audio radio management system (ARMS), very high frequency communication (VHF COM) 1, VHF COM 2, ultra high frequency communication UHF COM, VHF NAV 1, VHF NAV 2, distance measuring equipment (DME) and automatic direction finders (ADF).

A mode S transponder, global positioning system (GPS), radar altimeter, attitude heading reference system (AHRS), emergency locator beacon (ELT) and air data computer avionics are also installed in the PC-7 MkII cockpit.

Performance

The PC-7 can climb at a rate of 865m/min. The aircraft has a cruise speed of 415km/h and can fly at 460km/h. The range and service ceiling of the aircraft are 1,950km and 9,150m respectively. The maximum take-off weight is 2,700kg. The take-off and landing distances are 590m and 625m respectively, while the maximum g-load capacity is -3/+6.

Engine

"The PC-7 features a new one-piece wing with integral fuel tanks, an altered tailfin and a bubble canopy."The Pilatus PC-7 is powered by a single Pratt a Whitney PT6A-25A turboprop engine and a three-blade Hartzell HC-B3TN-2 propeller. It can generate 485kW of output power.

The PT6A-25A is a two-shaft engine with a multi-stage compressor driven by a single-stage compressor turbine. It has another independent shaft coupling the power turbine and propeller through an epicyclic concentric reduction gearbox. The PC-7 MkII is powered by a single 522.2kW Pratt and Whitney PT6A-25C turboprop engine, which offers a lower engine operating cost than the PC-7's engine.

The principal difference between the engines used in the PC-7 and the MkII variant is the output capacities. The NCPC-7 has a single Pratt and Whitney PT6A-25A turboprop engine, similar to the engine used in the standard PC-7 aircraft.


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## fatman17

_this is an old article but it has some new news_

ASIA PACIFIC 
Date Posted: 17-Apr-2008 


Jane's Defence Weekly 

*Pakistan and Turkey organise air force exercises*

Farhan Bokhari JDW Correspondent - Islamabad

The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) intends to hold a series of exercises with the Turkish Air Force (TuAF) in Pakistan before the end of April, a PAF spokesman announced on 14 April. 

Codenamed 'Indus Viper 2008', the exercises are meant to give pilots from the two air forces experience of close co-ordination through mock combat missions, a senior Pakistani official said. 

The armed forces of Pakistan and Turkey have enjoyed close ties for years. Islamabad has supported Ankara's position on Cyprus and the Turkish bid to join the EU. 

The joint air exercises will also give Turkish pilots first-hand experience of the operational capabilities of Pakistan's newly inducted JF-17 Thunder fighter aircraft, a Pakistani government official said. 

This would make the TuAF the first air force - other than the PAF and Chinese People's Liberation Army Air Force - to see the JF-17 in operation. 

A foreign defence official based in Islamabad told Jane's that the PAF's exercises with the TuAF could help promote Pakistan's efforts to sell the JF-17 to other countries in Africa and Asia. 

A senior Pakistani official told Jane's earlier in April that at least four African and Asian countries have requested a detailed review of the JF-17 during the IDEAS 2008 defence exports exhibition, which is due to be hosted in Karachi in November.

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## fatman17

ASIA PACIFIC 

Date Posted: 15-May-2007 


JANE'S DEFENCE WEEKLY - MAY 23, 2007 

*Sniper pod order set to boost Pakistan Air Force *

Craig Caffrey Jane's Defence Forecast Analyst - London

Pakistan is to receive 18 AN/AAQ-33 Sniper Advanced Targeting Pods after the US government awarded a contract to Lockheed Martin on 14 May 2007. 

The pods will form part of the Advanced Block 52 F-16 programme for the Pakistan Air Force (PAF). The terms of the contract have not been disclosed at this time. However, the deal is believed to be worth around USD44.5 million and will include associated spare parts and training. 

The pods, which are currently in use with eight other air forces including the US Air Force and the UK Royal Air Force, will enhance the PAF's ability to conduct intelligence, targeting, surveillance and reconnaissance missions. 

The Sniper pod is a long-range precision targeting system, which incorporates a high resolution forward-looking infrared (FLIR), an auto-tracker, a diode-pumped laser with eye-safe training mode, passive air-to-air target detection and tracking, a night-vision goggle (NVG)-compatible laser marker and a laser spot tracker. 

Pakistan currently has 18 Block 52 F-16 multirole fighters on order as the initial part of a 36 aircraft, USD3 billion contract. The Sniper pods acquired through this contract will therefore probably be used on these platforms when they enter service in 2010.

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## Johny D

*Pakistan Air Force deploys air-to-air refuelling aircraft*

ISLAMABAD: The Pakistan Air Force today deployed its first air-to-air refuelling aircraft during an ongoing air exercise, with officials describing the event as a "milestone" in the enhancement of the force's capabilities.

The Il-78 air-to-air refuelling aircraft, which was inducted into the PAF in December last year, took active part in the High Mark 2010 exercise and refuelled two fighter jets, officials said.

Pakistan is expecting the delivery of three more refuelling aircraft by June, a PAF official told state-run APP news agency.

"By virtue of its ability to refuel air defence aircraft in the air, PAF's overall capability in terms of its effectiveness to defend the airspace...has significantly enhanced," the official said.

The High Mark exercise, which began a week ago, has been tailored to include manoeuvres with the army and navy to enhance the ability to conduct joint operations by the three services, officials said.

The exercise covers the entire country, from Skardu in the north to the Arabian Sea in the south.

High Mark is also aimed at conducting operations in a "near-realistic tactical environment" while integrating new weapon systems and providing "role-oriented training to combat and support elements of the PAF and other services".

"It is designed to achieve stipulated objectives with special emphasis on exposing PAF combat crew to simulated air battles based on contemporary concepts," an official said.

All main operating bases for peace time and war-time forward operating bases are participating in the ongoing exercise.

Newly inducted aircraft like the JF-17 Thunder combat jets and Saab-2000 airborne warning and control aircraft are participating in the exercise for the first time.

Pakistan Air Force deploys air-to-air refuelling aircraft - dnaindia.com


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## yuvabharat

i hope pakistan planes go up and dont come down like india like ours whatever goes up comes down


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## hamid1212

kaya mujhe kor bata sakta hay k pak army ya navy ya airforce kesi ki bhi exercise karachi main hoti hain kaaya aur hoti hain to kaya civilian unhain dekh saktay hain ? pls help me


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## Azam Eagle

A Pakistani Trainer Jet For The Indian Air Force?
April 13, 2010 



Here is a chance that India blew to send a strong message for peace with both Pakistan and China. An Egyptian diplomat based in New Delhi apparently offered recently to help Indian Air Force overcome its shabby pilot training program.

According to a report by the Indian magazine Business Standard, the Egyptian official offered a novel solution: An Egyptian Air Force training crew flown from Egypt to India to train Indian pilots using Karakoram-8, the multirole trainer jointly developed by both Pakistan and China and now used by a growing list of countries, including Egypt, Sri Lanka, Indonesia, Malaysia, Zimbabwe, Myanmar, Namibia, not to mention the air forces of both Pakistan and China.

Says the Indian magazine: Since the offer was not followed up in writing, the Indian Air Force (IAF) was spared the embarrassment of having to reply.


But the Egyptian diplomat was not playing dumb. He knew what he was saying. The Egyptians are no novices in diplomacy. Maybe he was just hoping to make a small indirect breakthrough in Indias tense relationship with both Pakistan and China. Cairo enjoys excellent relations with Islamabad and Beijing.

It would have been a smart move had the Indian air force accepted the offer. New Delhi has close ties to Egypt and extensive military-to-military relations. So there is no question of trust deficit. Using a trainer developed by Pakistan and China would have said a lot about how confident India is about itself. The move would have also made financial and practical sense. Despite Indias massive military procurement program, its pilot training record is downright embarrassing. Again, heres a quote from the same report:  the IAFs notoriously unreliable basic trainer, the HPT-32 Deepak, was grounded after a horrific crash that killed two experienced pilots. In 17 Deepak crashes so far, 19 pilots have died.

This move would have done good where Indian diplomacy in recent years has done little to improve relations with its two neighbors.

The list of Indian hostile messages to Pakistan and China is long [acquiring Pakistan-specific weapon systems, building Pakistan- and China-specific bases near the two borders, quietly supporting terrorism inside China in Tibet in Xinjiang and Inside Pakistan's Balochistan and in cities close to Pakistan's border with India.

The Karakoram-8, and its several recent upgraded models, is jointly developed and produced by China Nanchang Aircraft Manufacturing Corporation and Pakistan Aeronautical Complex. The plane is called K-8 Karakorum after the mountain range that separates China and Pakistan. Although it is a trainer, the jet can be used for light air-to-ground combat roles with easy modifications.


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## yas

Very Informative


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## fatman17

*Pakistan Air Force*

The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has been keen to demonstrate that it is at the forefront of the country's war against the Taliban and, to this end, carried out two weeks of bombing of suspected 'soft' militant targets in October 2009. By attacking the Taliban's infrastructure network, it was anticipated that the insurgents' defences would be weakened ahead of a ground campaign conducted by the Pakistan Army. 

As a result of these intensifying counter-terrorist operations, PAF training has increasingly become focused on tackling militant threats rather than the traditional concern of countering a military campaign waged by India. For example, 70 to 80 per cent of activities undertaken in the air force's regular 'Saffron Bandit' exercise were geared towards thwarting militant attacks, with F-16, F-7 and Mirage fighter aircraft conducting bombing missions against simulated militant targets.

In light of the deepening security crisis in Pakistan, the forces have been looking towards the US for equipment and, as a result, received four upgraded Mil Mi-17 utility helicopters from the US in June 2009. Meanwhile, the first of 18 new Lockheed Martin F-16C/D fighter aircraft (the relevancy of which to current operations has been questioned in some quarters) was unveiled in Texas in October 2009 and is scheduled to enter operational service in mid-2010. However, the blank cheques from Washington that were issued under the Bush Administration are no longer on offer and Pakistan has been looking to other allies for equipment. This, in particular, has seen a deepening of its defence ties with Beijing. 

China delivered eight K-8P trainers to the PAF in 2009 and a deal worth at least USD1.4 billion has been signed for the procurement of 36 CAC J-10 multirole fighter aircraft, with this figure expected to rise over the longer term. The J-10s procured by Pakistan are believed to be of the enhanced J-10B standard which features an X-band active electronically scanned array (the first such radar developed for a Chinese-manufactured aircraft) and a previously unseen set of fairings on the topside of the fin which are understood to contain electronic countermeasures equipment. 

Islamabad is also keen to develop its indigenous capabilities, albeit with Chinese co-operation, and has taken advantage of the vast recapitalisation process underway within the air force's combat aircraft inventory to this end. A key milestone was reached in November 2009 with the rolling out of the first domestically-produced JF-17 built by the PAF-run Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) in collaboration with China's CATIC (China Aviation Technology Import-Export Corporation). There are plans for an eventual 250 JF-17s to bolster the PAF's inventory.

Alongside these procurement efforts, another international alliance sees Turkey's Tusas Aerospace Industries undertaking a mid-life upgrade of 42 F-16 aircraft which will result in the Block 15 aircraft being upgraded to Block 40 standard.

Aside from the modernisation of the fighter fleet, Pakistan acquired two important new capabilities during the course of 2009. In December 2009, Ukraine began the delivery of four Il-78 air-to-air refuelling tanker aircraft, which will enhance the PAF's strategic reach, while in the same month the first of four Saab 2000 Erieye airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) aircraft was also formally accepted. Furthermore, 2009 saw the air force place an order for a number of Chinese made AEW&C aircraft, reportedly Il-76-based KJ-2000s. These new capabilities are indicative of the ongoing transformation of the PAF into a modern, technologically advanced and highly competent service able to conduct an ever expanding mission set.

Following the success of US-deployed Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAVs) in striking militant targets in Pakistan's tribal areas, the PAC has also formally launched plans to part-produce the Falco UAV, a system which is already being utilised by the air force as part of the ongoing counter-insurgency campaign. Currently manufactured by the Italian company Selex Galileo, some parts will now be produced domestically to reduce the reliance on Italian imports.

Certain themes appear to be emerging with regards to Islamabad's procurement decisions. Alongside an emphasis on indigenous manufacturing, it is likely that Pakistan will continue to look to the US for suitable equipment but also, increasingly, to China, which has been deemed a reliable supplier that is unlikely to impose weapon sanctions and could also provide ample opportunities for future export orders.

JDW


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## jroll

fatman17 said:


> *Pakistan Air Force*
> 
> 
> Alongside these procurement efforts, another international alliance sees Turkey's Tusas Aerospace Industries undertaking a mid-life upgrade of 42 F-16 aircraft which will result in the Block 15 aircraft being upgraded to Block 40 standard.
> 
> 
> 
> JDW



Isn't the 42 older F-16s being upgraded to block 50 standards?


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## razgriz19

jroll said:


> Isn't the 42 older F-16s being upgraded to block 50 standards?



close to block 52 and only about 32 or something for now...not 42


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## blain2

Actually the number 42 is close to correct because it includes the original PAF F-16s and those received via EDA.

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## fatman17

why we are getting caught up in the 'what block' the a/c is - block numbering only donates the type of engine and the types of weapons employed.

do we know that the 8 PAF pilots trained on blk-25's for operating blk-52's!!!

the 'base' a/c is the same except for PP and weapons employed.

blk 40 can probably do everything a blk 52 can do except employ the HARM AGM.


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## SQ8

fatman17 said:


> why we are getting caught up in the 'what block' the a/c is - block numbering only donates the type of engine and the types of weapons employed.
> 
> do we know that the 8 PAF pilots trained on blk-25's for operating blk-52's!!!
> 
> the 'base' a/c is the same except for PP and weapons employed.
> 
> blk 40 can probably do everything a blk 52 can do except employ the HARM AGM.



I'd disagree, Minor changes in internal wiring, plumbing in 52-plus( for the CFT's) is, block 40's also contain the wide angle HUD optimized for night strike with NVG's which has been discontinued in the CJ series. The Block 40 can also employ the HARM AGM however is unable to use the Harm targeting system. and so must fire using target cueing from other supporting aircraft.
The base aircraft however is the same if the layout of the cockpit is in question. However, considering the changes that will be brought around by an MLU of the existing F-16 A/B's their cockpit will also look exactly like a C/D. 

F-16 C/D block 30 cockpit( fairly similar)





F-16 C/D block 40 cockpit




F-16 C/D block 50/52




F-16 A/B MLU 





Eventually the layout of all F-16's will be the same, so eventually some of the A/B squadron pilots will have to go conversion at home on the Shahbaz F-16's or at a friendly country with MLU jets.

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## fatman17

santro said:


> I'd disagree, Minor changes in internal wiring, plumbing in 52-plus( for the CFT's) is, block 40's also contain the wide angle HUD optimized for night strike with NVG's which has been discontinued in the CJ series. The Block 40 can also employ the HARM AGM however is unable to use the Harm targeting system. and so must fire using target cueing from other supporting aircraft.
> The base aircraft however is the same if the layout of the cockpit is in question. However, considering the changes that will be brought around by an MLU of the existing F-16 A/B's their cockpit will also look exactly like a C/D.
> 
> F-16 C/D block 30 cockpit( fairly similar)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> F-16 C/D block 40 cockpit
> 
> 
> 
> 
> F-16 C/D block 50/52
> 
> 
> 
> 
> F-16 A/B MLU
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eventually the layout of all F-16's will be the same, so eventually some of the A/B squadron pilots will have to go conversion at home on the Shahbaz F-16's or at a friendly country with MLU jets.



i was quoting a USAF Instructor pilot who is training the PAF pilots and referring to the 'flying capabilities' of the two types!!! - in other words if u can fly / operate the 25 and 40 then u can fly / operate the 52!!!

do u think pilots really care what type of 'plumbing' his a/c has - leave that for the ground crew!!!

PM me your e-mail address and i will send you the pdf file of the reference article - if u want to that is.


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## SQ8

fatman17 said:


> i was quoting a USAF Instructor pilot who is training the PAF pilots and referring to the 'flying capabilities' of the two types!!! - in other words if u can fly / operate the 25 and 40 then u can fly / operate the 52!!!
> 
> do u think pilots really care what type of 'plumbing' his a/c has - leave that for the ground crew!!!
> 
> PM me your e-mail address and i will send you the pdf file of the reference article - if u want to that is.



Know exactly what you are talking about, But cockpit orientation will still matter. In any case though; the cockpit and flight systems on the 25 are closer to the block 52 compared to the A/B models.
And I was unaware you meant ONLY the pilots. And uh, flying capabilities do differ slightly, depending on the engine and airframe weight. Block 30's are slightly better at acceleration then 52's. But then its all academic. You were referring to pilot orientation and that is fulfilled by the training.

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## behram

Super Falcon said:


> A two-seat light trainer aircraft, the Pilatus PC-7 turbo was built by Pilatus Aircraft Ltd in Switzerland. The PC-7 can perform various functions including aerobatics and tactical and night flying. The PC-7 can accommodate a crew of two members (a student and trainer) and has six underwing hardpoints.
> 
> The PC-7 has been selected by 20 air forces to train military pilots. The aircraft is fully operational in civil and military pilot training bases across the world. It is equipped with a single Pratt and Whitney PT6A-25A turboprop engine. The first series of PC-7 aircraft was delivered to Myanmar Air Force in 1979.
> 
> The PC-7 received Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) and Federal Office of Civil Aviation (FOCA) certifications to support European and US regulations.
> 
> Orders and deliveries
> 
> About 450 PC-7 aircraft have been sold to 21 countries. Mexico procured 88 PC-7s, deliveries of which began in 1980. About 52 PC-7s were bought by Iraq and deliveries began in 1980. The Iraqi PC-7 fleet was completely eliminated during the US invasion in 2003. Malaysia acquired 44 PC-7s, deliveries of which began in 1983.
> 
> Other Pilatus PC-7 customers include the Swiss Air Force (40), Angola (27), Austria (16), Bolivia (24), Bophuthatswana (three), Botswana (seven), Chile (ten), France (five), Guatemala (12), Iran (35), Myanmar (19), Netherlands (13), UAE / Abu Dhabi (31) and Uruguay (six).
> 
> Deliveries to Angola began in 1982 and those to the Swiss Air Force began in 1986. Deliveries to Austria, Bolivia, Bophuthatswana, Botswana, Chile, France, Guatemala, Iran, Myanmar, Netherlands, UAE / Abu Dhabi and Uruguay began in 1984, 1979, 1989, 1990, 1980, 1991, 1980, 1983, 1979, 1989, 1982 and 1992 respectively.
> 
> Development
> 
> The PC-7 was derived from the Pilatus P-3 training aircraft, which was launched in the early 1950s.
> 
> "The PC-7 can perform various functions including aerobatics and tactical and night flying."The modified P-3 prototype first flew on 12 April 1966. The PC-7 development programme was, however, held back when the prototype crashed due to forced landing.
> 
> In 1973 the programme resumed using a modified engine and the new aircraft was named PC-7. The PC-7 prototype completed its maiden flight on 12 May 1975. The PC-7 aircraft also features a new one-piece wing with integral fuel tanks, an altered tailfin and a bubble canopy. The first produced PC-7 made its maiden flight on 19 August 1978.
> 
> Variants
> 
> The PC-7 has two variants: PC-7 MkII and NCPC-7. The PC-7 MkII variant is also known as the Astra. South Africa's requirement for an advanced version of the PC-7 aircraft led to the development of PC-7MkII. The variant was derived from the PC-9 M aircraft, the M denoting the aircraft's modular features. The PC-9 M aircraft is powered by a Pratt and Whitney PT6A-62 turboprop engine that provides 863kW of output power.
> 
> The variant is equipped with advanced avionics and on-board oxygen generation system (OBOGS). The PC-7 MkII aircraft comprises only two underwing hardpoints, unlike the PC-7's six underwing hard points.
> 
> The first PC-7 MkII aircraft took its maiden flight in August 1994. The first delivery of the variant was made to the SAAF in November 1994. About 60 PC-7 MkII aircraft were delivered to SAAF by 1996.
> 
> The NCPC-7 was developed by upgrading the standard PC-7. New features included a glass cockpit, GPS, autopilot and a second VHF radio. The NCPC-7 was developed for the Swiss Air Force for training pilots. About 18 PC-7 aircraft were upgraded to NCPC-7 and a contract for upgrading ten more was signed in February 2008.
> 
> Cockpit and avionics
> 
> The PC-7 MkII features a dual glass cockpit. It is equipped with primary flight display (PFD), secondary flight display (SFD), an engine and secondary instruments display panel (ESDP), an audio radio management system (ARMS), very high frequency communication (VHF COM) 1, VHF COM 2, ultra high frequency communication UHF COM, VHF NAV 1, VHF NAV 2, distance measuring equipment (DME) and automatic direction finders (ADF).
> 
> A mode S transponder, global positioning system (GPS), radar altimeter, attitude heading reference system (AHRS), emergency locator beacon (ELT) and air data computer avionics are also installed in the PC-7 MkII cockpit.
> 
> Performance
> 
> The PC-7 can climb at a rate of 865m/min. The aircraft has a cruise speed of 415km/h and can fly at 460km/h. The range and service ceiling of the aircraft are 1,950km and 9,150m respectively. The maximum take-off weight is 2,700kg. The take-off and landing distances are 590m and 625m respectively, while the maximum g-load capacity is -3/+6.
> 
> Engine
> 
> "The PC-7 features a new one-piece wing with integral fuel tanks, an altered tailfin and a bubble canopy."The Pilatus PC-7 is powered by a single Pratt a Whitney PT6A-25A turboprop engine and a three-blade Hartzell HC-B3TN-2 propeller. It can generate 485kW of output power.
> 
> The PT6A-25A is a two-shaft engine with a multi-stage compressor driven by a single-stage compressor turbine. It has another independent shaft coupling the power turbine and propeller through an epicyclic concentric reduction gearbox. The PC-7 MkII is powered by a single 522.2kW Pratt and Whitney PT6A-25C turboprop engine, which offers a lower engine operating cost than the PC-7's engine.
> 
> The principal difference between the engines used in the PC-7 and the MkII variant is the output capacities. The NCPC-7 has a single Pratt and Whitney PT6A-25A turboprop engine, similar to the engine used in the standard PC-7 aircraft.



The highest number of hours on PC-7 is by an ex-PAF pilot, he has over 5,000 hours on it. Also the first 3 Hawks 100(same type as India, Canada, UAE) pilots to pass through 1,000 hours : 1 Canadian, and 2 Pakistanis, all from UAE Air Force on civilian contracts. And the Hawk 63s in Al Ain PAF guys have reached 2,000 hours or more.

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## behram

http://www.pakdef.info/pakmilitary/airforce/gallery/images/img016.jpg

From the leader : 2nd last guy on the right and 2nd guy on the left of the leader are the guys who first passed 1,000 hours and still actively flying. Note : left and right in terms of how you see it not left and right of how it is in reference with the pilots in the picture.

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## JK!

Junes AFM is a good one it has an interview with ACM Suleman and some excellent pictures of PAF including the first ever air to air photo of JF17!


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## Qasibr

I have two things I wanted to find out more about.

First's the likelihood of the Chinese inducting the JF-17/FC-1 in the context of their having cleared the aircraft in "design appraisal", and then their conducting successful taxi trials of the aircraft using the WS-13 engine recently. Why would the Chinese be conducting these tests and spending time on the aircraft if they weren't seriously thinking about it.

One can imagine that a major concern for the Chinese would be that the aircraft have a native engine if they were to induct it. So anyone have any info on the Chinese inducting it, and what the status of the WS-13 project is?

And secondly I wanted to ask about JF-17's twin seat variant. Last I heard Pakistan had decided to foot the bill to develop the variant, any updates on that?

Thanks!

Design Appraisal: http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90001/90776/90786/6850260.html
Taxi Trials: http://china-defense.blogspot.com/2010/05/fc-1-equipped-with-ws-13-completed.html


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## fatman17

July Issue of AFM

Bell 412EP Export Orders
Bell was awarded a $23.2 mill US Army contract on April 23 for two Bell 412EP destined for the Pakistan Army. This is in addition to the two examples delivered to the Pakistan Army on May 18.

Pakistan Army King Air Arrives in UK for Upgrade
VIP configured Pakistan Army/13 Sqdn King Air 200 927 (c/n 88-927) arrived in the UK at Cranfield Airfield, Bedfordshire, on May 7 for installation of a glass cockpit and an engine overhaul by IAE.

All Four Pakistan AF Phenoms Now in Service
ALL FOUR of the Embraer EMB-500 Phenom 100 executive jets that were ordered by the Pakistan AF (PAF) are now in full operational service. The aircraft are all flown by 41 Sqdn, based at PAF Base Chaklala, Islamabad, for various roles, including VIP transport, liaison and communications.

Serial........c/n..........previous id..........delivery date..........
V-4101....5000017..PT-ZYE...............April 14, 2009.......
V-4102....5000014..PT-ZYB..............June 22, 2009.......
V-4103....5000047..PT-TFW.............September 26, 2009
V-4104....5000113..PT-TIR...............December 29,2009

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## pyazdani945@gmail.com

beautiful pics i never seen before


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## Lone Bullet

hi im a little rare in posts but a keen visitor....

seniors i need some scans from the november, 2008 issue of airforces monthly, i.e. black panthers fantans at night article.....kindly post the scans if anyone has...
thanks


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## fatman17

AFZAL said:


> hi im a little rare in posts but a keen visitor....
> 
> seniors i need some scans from the november, 2008 issue of airforces monthly, i.e. black panthers fantans at night article.....kindly post the scans if anyone has...
> thanks



send me your e-mail address and i will send u the pdf file!


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## fatman17

*PAF - Update*

Assessment
As well as nuclear weapons development, a major source of animosity in relations between Pakistan and the US was the non-provision of F-16s that were paid for more than 20 years ago, for which the money was eventually, and with ill-grace, refunded. In a remarkable volte-face, the US announced in March 2005 that it would supply Pakistan with additional F-16s. Negotiations took place but were put on hold following the devastating December 2005 earthquake. Subsequent negotiations and budget considerations resulted in agreement for the US to supply a further 14 F-16A/B aircraft, all of which were delivered between December 2005 and July 2008. The order for F-16C/D Block 52 aircraft was reduced to 18 from a previously proposed 36, with the first group of three aircraft arriving in Pakistan in July 2010 for assignment to No.5 Squadron at Shahbaz. The current fleet of F-16A/Bs is to be upgraded as part of a gradual programme, with four aircraft to be overhauled in the US and the remainder (originally planned as 42, but since reduced to 41 by attrition) by Turkish Aerospace Industries. 

Further diversification was evident with the arrival on 9 December 2009 of the first of four Saab 2000 Erieye Airborne Early Warning and Control (AEW&C) aircraft from Sweden, and on 19 December 2009 of the first Ukrainian-supplied Il-78 'Midas' in-flight refuelling aircraft. A second AEW&C aircraft was delivered in April 2010, with the final two expected to arrive by the end of 2010.

Adaptability 
The air force is well prepared to operate against the main air threat, which is perceived to be that of India, although sheer weight of numbers are likely to tell against it in the event of conflict. It is capable of providing air defence over forward army formations, but will probably concentrate on attempting to deny airspace relevant to major strategic installations, including nuclear plants and weapons' facilities. It is unlikely that priorities will alter in the foreseeable future, irrespective of current ground attack requirements supporting counter-insurgency operations in the volatile north- west region of the country, but should there be modification of policy, doctrine or tactics, the PAF is capable of reacting flexibly and adopting whatever approach may be necessary.

Recent and Current Operations  
There have been no recent contributions to UN or other multinational peace support operations. The air force has been heavily involved in attacking rebel forces' installations and positions in the Swat region of the North West Frontier Province and in the Federally Administered Tribal Areas, in support of major army operations in 2009.

Operational Art and Tactical Doctrine  
Pakistan has officially abandoned the pre-emptive strike as doctrine, although in the event of conflict with India, it would have to deal with the Indian advantage in combat airpower. While this has diminished in quantity, the disparity in numbers would still detract from the PAF's ability to conduct effective airspace denial over base facilities and tactical elements.

Recruitment  
There are 12 recruiting and information centres, all in major cities, and recruiting standards are high. No category lacks applications, with heavy over-subscription to the pilot stream from which only 15-20 per cent of initial applicants eventually graduate.

Professionalism  
The PAF prides itself, with considerable justification, on being a "professional" force, in that it trains hard and operates effectively. Turn-round times for FGA sorties to the North-West Frontier Province, for example, have been judged good to excellent, and although the circumstances are regrettable the air campaign has resulted in systems and tactics being proved operationally. So far as can be judged from open-source reports, air exercises are testing and effective.

Training  
The Pakistan Air Force Academy is based at Risalpur, 60 miles east of Islamabad and is the principal training centre. At least 100 aircraft are available to provide ab initio, basic and advanced courses, platforms including the indigenous Super Mushshak, T-37 jet trainers supplied by the US and the Chinese-built K-8 Karakorum. It appears likely that more K-8s will be acquired to ultimately replace the T-37 as well as the FT-5 aircraft of the Fighter Conversion Unit at Mianwali. Eventually, the PAF intends to conduct primary training on the Super Mushshak, then basic jet transition on the Karakorum followed by lead-in fighter training on a two-seat version of the JF-17 Thunder.

Military Exercises  
The air force demonstrated its newly acquired mid-air refuelling capability for the first time in March 2010, during the exercise 'High Mark 2010'. Two Mirage fighter aircraft flew formation with the Il-78 and "the refuelling went ahead smoothly. This exercise demonstrates that the refuelling capacity is well integrated," a PAF official told Jane's. The 'High Mark' exercise was previously thought to have fallen victim to operational and economic pressures, as the last was conducted in 2005. The 2010 iteration took place from mid March to mid May, with this two-month period involving an exhaustive and exhausting evaluation of all aspects of the PAF. The opening month was devoted entirely to the PAF and included extensive deployed operations from remote bases such as Mirpur Khas, Murid and Skardu. The opportunity was also taken to demonstrate the capability to operate from a highway strip, with single examples of the Mirage V and F-7PG using the Islamabad-Lahore motorway for this purpose. In contrast, the second month focused on the PAF's ability to conduct joint operations with elements of the army and navy.

In April 2008, five Turkish Air Force F-16s joined in a major exercise with the PAF in Pakistan. During November-December 2009, a number of F-7PGs from No.23 Squadron deployed to Al Dhafra in the United Arab Emirates to take part in the multinational 'Iron Falcon' exercise, with an even more ambitious overseas deployment following in July-August 2010 when several F-16Bs deployed from Pakistan to the USA. Their eventual destination was Nellis AFB, Nevada, where they participated in 'Red Flag' manoeuvres for the first time. 

Combat
In July 2008 the US completed the delivery of 14 F-16s to Pakistan under a Foreign Military Sales (FMS) deal signed in 2005. These aircraft were donated except for transportation costs, but were purchased and paid for by Pakistan many years ago only to fall foul of an embargo. Pakistan is also expecting its fleet of F-16A/Bs to be upgraded using US military aid. In addition, Pakistan has ordered 12 F-16C and six F16D Block 52 fighters, delivery of which began in June 2010 with arrival of the first three aircraft for No.5 Squadron at Shahbaz. These are more capable versions of the Fighting Falcon that can execute night-time and precision-strike missions. The first three aircraft were delivered in June 2010. These 'Peace Drive I' aircraft are receiving the AN/ALQ-173 electronic warfare system from ITT Avionics via the US FMS programme. Another FMS contract in April 2007 covers the acquisition of 18 Lockheed Martin Sniper targeting pods for use by these aircraft. These are to be delivered by December 2010 and will markedly enhance the PAF's ability to perform targeting and conduct intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance missions.

Pakistan's key aircraft manufacturing facility, the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, and China's CATIC (China Aviation Technology Import-Export Corporation), signed an agreement on 7 March 2009 for serial production of an initial tranche of 42 JF-17 'Thunder' fighter aircraft in Pakistan. The complex in Kamra will produce around15 JF-17s annually, although there is the possibility that it may increase to 30 aircraft a year in order to satisfy the ambitious re-equipment programme. The first JF-17 to be produced in Pakistan was handed over to the PAF in November 2009. The PAF intends the JF-17 to become the backbone of its fleet and plans to acquire at least 150 and probably as many as 240 by 2015. By the end of 2009 the PAF had received at least eight JF-17s, all of which were manufactured in China and one locally produced version. The first squadron to be equipped is No. 26, based at Minhas; No.16 Squadron (currently at Peshawar) will be next but may also move to Minhas. According to PAC Kamra, the unit price is estimated at USD15 million.

China is selling at least 36 of its CAC J-10 multirole fighter aircraft to Pakistan in a deal involving one of its most advanced weapon systems, according to senior Pakistani and Western defence officials. News of the agreement came on 11 November 2009 when the PAF commander, Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman, was visiting China. A senior Western defence official based in Islamabad who closely tracks Sino-Pakistani military co-operation told Jane's: "The deal for the J-10 is finally together now."
According to the Western defence official, who declined to be named, China agreed to supply the batch of 36 J-10s (sufficient aircraft for two squadrons) by 2012 or 2013. The two sides have left open the possibility of a future agreement for the sale of more J-10s. The timing of the J-10 deal is significant. The first JF-17 made in Pakistan was rolled out of the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) at Kamra, north of Islamabad, in late 2009 and the first squadron of JF-17s was formally inducted into the air force in February 2010, although this has still to attain full operational capability.
Western defence analysts say the JF-17 airframe is produced at the PAC, while its avionics and weapon systems include items sourced from China and the West. For example, the JF-17 will initially utilise Chinese KLJ-1 radar, although there is a strong possibility that this will eventually be replaced by a Thales system. "This [the JF-17] will be a truly global aircraft, including specs from different sources," one Western defence official based in Islamabad told Jane's.

Transport 
In early September 2010, it was announced that The PAF was to receive 10 Aerospatiale SA 316 Alouette III utility helicopters from the Swiss government to help with the search-and-rescue (SAR) efforts that have been ongoing since much of the country was flooded following heavy rains in mid 2010. The Swiss Ministry of Defence, Civil Protection and Sport (DDPS) stated that the helicopters, which were due to be retired by the end of the year, would be transferred to the PAF free of charge. The DDPS also expressed its expectation that the helicopters would be delivered by PAF transport aircraft later in the same month. According to the DDPS, the PAF has been interested in purchasing these helicopters for some time prior to the announcement. As at September 2010 the PAF operated 15 such aircraft which were first procured in the 1960s (the Pakistan Navy also operates about 10 Alouette IIIs that it began to purchase in the mid-1990s). 
Under the terms of the agreement, the Pakistan authorities have provided written guarantees to the Swiss government that these helicopters will not be armed and will be used exclusively for SAR and other non-combat duties. 
In March 2009, the PAF took delivery of the first of four Embraer Phenom 100s from Brazil, followed by the second in June 2009. These and the following aircraft are to be used as staff transports and will replace a similar number of Cessna 172s. All four had been delivered to No.41 Squadron by the end of December 2009.
The first Il-78MP 'Midas' refuelling aircraft was delivered to the PAF by Ukraine in December 2009 and is now in service with No.10 Squadron at Chaklala, where it will be joined by a second example during 2010. The II-78 is able to refuel Mirage and JF-17 combat aircraft, which are fitted with probes, but is not compatible with the F-16, which has a different in-flight refuelling system. Fuel tanks located in the hold are removable, permitting use as a general strategic transport.

C4ISR
Roll out of the first aircraft took place at Link&#246;ping, Sweden in March 2008, with the maiden flight following on 29 April 2008. The aircraft was in December 2009 and is operated by No.13 Squadron from Minhas. Delivery of the second Saab 2000 took place in April 2010. According to Saab, the aircraft was then to undergo final tests in Pakistan, mainly focusing on verifying the PS-890 Erieye radar system, which is fitted to the aircraft as a dorsal 'plank' antenna. The Erieye features an electronic-warfare suite that includes electronic support, threat-warning and countermeasures dispensing subsystems, an identification friend-or-foe subsystem, command-and-control (C2) capabilities and a ground-based mission trainer.
An unmodified training systems aircraft has been in service with No.3 Squadron at Chaklala since October 2008. The Erieye will data-link with the F-16s but not the Mirage fleet.
In January 2009, Pakistan's defence minister informed parliament that a USD278 million order had been placed for the Chinese ZDK-03 AWACS system. The aerial platform for this is based on the Y-8 aircraft, with delivery of the first aircraft anticipated in November-December 2010. They are intended to be compatible with Chinese-origin combat aircraft.

Unmanned Aerial Vehicles
In 2007, the PAF acquired the Falco UAV designed by Selex Galileo of Italy for use in the ISR role. The system is being part-produced at the Kamra factory and is likely to be followed by a missile-armed UAV in due course. In-country assembly of the Falco UAV was launched in August 2009.

Trainer 
A further eight K-8 Karakorum trainer aircraft were delivered to Risalpur in January 2009, raising the number received to 28, comprising 12 original K-8 and 16 improved K-8Ps. An upgrade/modernisation project involving the original aircraft is being undertaken by the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex at Kamra to bring them to the latest K-8P configuration.
Most recently, in May 2010, China and Pakistan concluded a number of defence agreements, including one involving the provision of four trainer aircraft. No details of type of aircraft or delivery schedule have yet emerged. This forms part of a CNY60 million (USD8.8 million) package to fund training that is believed to encompass all branches of Pakistan's armed forces.

MODERNISATION
The deal is one of several FMS contracts that Pakistan officials have recently urged to be accelerated by Washington. Meetings between the defence officials of the two sides earlier in May 2010 focused on "more rapid delivery" of on-order equipment and services, as well as identifying additional requirements to be funded by Washington's Foreign Military Financing programme, under which Pakistan receives around USD300 million a year.

Notes: 
1...In July 2007, the US agreed to deliver 28 additional F-16 fighter aircraft (13 F-16As and 15 F-16Bs) to Pakistan, following service with the USAF and US Navy. All of the USAF machines (3 F-16As and 11 F-16Bs) were handed over, but the US Navy has not agreed to release its aircraft (10 F-16As and 4 F-16Bs). It is intended to subject all remaining F-16A/B aircraft to an upgrade programme, comprising four pattern examples now receiving attention in the US, with the remainder (originally planned to be 42, but likely to be reduced to 41 because of recent attrition) to be done by Turkish Aerospace Industries during 2010-14. A total of 12 F-16Cs and six F-16Ds will be delivered to No.5 Squadron at Shahbaz in 2010-11. 
2....Current orders. Up to 250 to be acquired; delivery in progress.

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## blain2

santro said:


> Know exactly what you are talking about, But cockpit orientation will still matter. In any case though; the cockpit and flight systems on the 25 are closer to the block 52 compared to the A/B models.
> And I was unaware you meant ONLY the pilots. And uh, flying capabilities do differ slightly, depending on the engine and airframe weight. Block 30's are slightly better at acceleration then 52's. But then its all academic. You were referring to pilot orientation and that is fulfilled by the training.



The PAF pilots trained on blk 25s with the USAF and then went to get cockpit and platform familiarization on the blk52s with Lockheed Martin.

Both are needed.

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## VCheng

Is Air Force Monthly no longer being read or there is just no interest left in it:


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## fatman17

VCheng said:


> Is Air Force Monthly no longer being read or there is just no interest left in it:



we try to post PAF/PAA related stuff mostly. BTW i am a subscriber to the magazine as are many others!

in the Dec-10 issue, AFM is seeking a new 'Editor'. looks like Alan Warnes is either leaving AFM or moving up the AFM 'corporate' ladder. only time will tell.

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## VCheng

fatman17 said:


> we try to post PAF/PAA related stuff mostly. BTW i am a subscriber to the magazine as are many others!
> 
> in the Dec-10 issue, AFM is seeking a new 'Editor'. looks like Alan Warnes is either leaving AFM or moving up the AFM 'corporate' ladder. only time will tell.



Actually, I am a subscriber too.

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## Proud to be Pakistani

I was !


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## unstopabl3

Hi, can anyone find out and tell me when the selection will start for PAF GDP in first half of 2011?
Much appreciated!

Great thread btw!


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## MJaa

*Pakistan Air Force News by Alan Warnes in AirForces Monthly April Issue*

Activation of No 5 Sqd with F-16 Block 52+

Negotiation for 2nd batch of 50 JF-17s is almost complete

Third JF-17 Sqd will be an "undisclosed Mirage unit" (As indicated earlier Pakistan Air Force is replacing old Mirages with F-16s/JF-17s )

Three SAAB-2000 AEW&C Erieyes now in service along with trainer version with Pakistan Air Force

First Chinese AWACs arriving in May and it will have an AESA Radar

Three Il-76 tankers in service with Pakistan Air Force.

By 2015 all 3 Mirage ROSE Sqds will be IFR equipped along with the JF-17s. 

Pakistan Air Force is looking for KC-135s via EDA.

Separate Claim (Hard to Believe)that Pakistan Air Force might not purchase the Chinese J-10 due to lack of funds

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## fatman17

MJaa said:


> *Pakistan Air Force News by Alan Warnes in AirForces Monthly April Issue*
> 
> Activation of No 5 Sqd with F-16 Block 52+
> 
> Negotiation for 2nd batch of 50 JF-17s is almost complete
> 
> Third JF-17 Sqd will be an "undisclosed Mirage unit" (As indicated earlier Pakistan Air Force is replacing old Mirages with F-16s/JF-17s )
> 
> Three SAAB-2000 AEW&C Erieyes now in service along with trainer version with Pakistan Air Force
> 
> First Chinese AWACs arriving in May and it will have an AESA Radar
> 
> Three Il-76 tankers in service with Pakistan Air Force.
> 
> By 2015 all 3 Mirage ROSE Sqds will be IFR equipped along with the JF-17s.
> 
> Pakistan Air Force is looking for KC-135s via EDA.
> 
> Separate Claim (Hard to Believe)that Pakistan Air Force might not purchase the Chinese J-10 due to lack of funds



masroor based no.2 or no.7 sqdn operating the older mirages/F-7s


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## fatman17

MJaa said:


> *Pakistan Air Force News by Alan Warnes in AirForces Monthly April Issue*
> 
> Activation of No 5 Sqd with F-16 Block 52+
> 
> Negotiation for 2nd batch of 50 JF-17s is almost complete
> 
> Third JF-17 Sqd will be an "undisclosed Mirage unit" (As indicated earlier Pakistan Air Force is replacing old Mirages with F-16s/JF-17s )
> 
> Three SAAB-2000 AEW&C Erieyes now in service along with trainer version with Pakistan Air Force
> 
> First Chinese AWACs arriving in May and it will have an AESA Radar
> 
> Three Il-76 tankers in service with Pakistan Air Force.
> 
> By 2015 all 3 Mirage ROSE Sqds will be IFR equipped along with the JF-17s.
> 
> Pakistan Air Force is looking for KC-135s via EDA.
> 
> Separate Claim (Hard to Believe)that Pakistan Air Force might not purchase the Chinese J-10 due to lack of funds



you mean May Issue!


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## Silk

By 2015 all rose mirages (and JF17) with IFR? Do we need 4 years for that? What are we going to do with 4 IL78? Sounds like poor planning to me.


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## Windjammer

February 5 saw the third and final IL-78 Midas delivered to the PAF's newly established 10 Squadron. Acquisition of these hose and drogue tankers will expand considerably the PAF's capabilities, particularly now that the Mirages are being upgraded with air to air refuelling probes. Dual seat Mirages are often used as the PAF steps up the training of it's pilots and aircrew in air to air refuelling procedures. There are plans to upgrade all three Retrofit of strike elements (ROSE) squadrons with this capability by 2015, together with the JF-17 Thunders. The PAF is currently looking to acquire several KC-135s through the USA's Excess Defence Article programme in a bid to extend the legs of it's F-16 fleet, but until then they are training with the USAF KC-135s.

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## Quwa

Wonder how long until PAF begins seeking used F-16C/Ds through EDA...

Also...I don't think its worth talking about the J-10B/FC-20 acquisition...we're nearing 2012, and the J-10B hasn't to my knowledge cleared testing yet. A PAF variant may take longer to cut through, and you cannot expect induction to suddenly accelerate in time for 2015...I think PAF is going to end up pushing FC-20/J-10B for 2018~2020, around the time the F-16A/Bs should begin retiring.

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## FC 20

MJaa said:


> *Pakistan Air Force News by Alan Warnes in AirForces Monthly April Issue*
> 
> Activation of No 5 Sqd with F-16 Block 52+
> 
> Negotiation for 2nd batch of 50 JF-17s is almost complete
> 
> Third JF-17 Sqd will be an "undisclosed Mirage unit" (As indicated earlier Pakistan Air Force is replacing old Mirages with F-16s/JF-17s )
> 
> Three SAAB-2000 AEW&C Erieyes now in service along with trainer version with Pakistan Air Force
> 
> First Chinese AWACs arriving in May and it will have an AESA Radar
> 
> Three Il-76 tankers in service with Pakistan Air Force.
> 
> By 2015 all 3 Mirage ROSE Sqds will be IFR equipped along with the JF-17s.
> 
> Pakistan Air Force is looking for KC-135s via EDA.
> 
> Separate Claim (Hard to Believe)that Pakistan Air Force might not purchase the Chinese J-10 due to lack of funds


 
WHY r they canceling the j 10??


----------



## fatman17

FC 20 said:


> WHY r they canceling the j 10??



they have not - it will just take longer to induct with the chinese engine.

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## Donatello

fatman17 said:


> they have not - it will just take longer to induct with the chinese engine.


 


I think J-10 acquisition is having problems for real....because even though PAF stationed it's engineers in China for years along with JF-17 project to look over J-10.....it seems they are having issues. Maybe that's why Pakistan wants more F-16s......but PAF should think about it....depending on F-16s and JF-17s...two types doesn't offer much. There must be a third heavy class fighter....so we have two heavy fighters......JF-17s are verstatile but carry too limited payload......

Just my $0.02

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## Storm Force

Penumbra 

dont be surprised if PAF drops 36 fc20 in favour of 36 J11B IE twin engined fighters


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## muse

> even though PAF stationed it's engineers in China for years along with JF-17 project to look over J-10.....it seems they are having issues.



Are they, really? What issues, can you please expand on this?


----------



## Donatello

muse said:


> Are they, really? What issues, can you please expand on this?


 


Remember we have been discussing and hearing about J-10s well before the Chinese AWACs which PAF is close to even receiving. Meanwhile, we don't have a concrete word on the J-10s yet, if we had, we would be knowing their delivery dates by now.....

In the past so many doggy details turned into a actual facts....

OHP class frigates acquisition and now it is on it's way to Pakistan....
JF-17s tested and now being inducted....
Chinese AWACs ready to be delivered.....
However no confirmation by PAF yet...on j-10s.

I do not know what the exact issues are, but when i talked to one of the PAF engineer last time (he was stationed for 3 years in Chengdu for jf-17 work) i did bring up the topic of j-10. He was, j-10 is a whole new class of plane, and to go for it we need much more funds...so he was like f-16s are still a viable option. Remember, we might not like western equipment now, having seen the past, but sometimes we have no choice.

F-16s vs J-10 which is still not mature....is kinda difficult to judge about......but maybe they are delaying due to engine issues....who knows.

I personally do want to see j-10 in PAF, but only when it proves that it is in class with BLK52 F-16s and capable to be upgraded to much more over the next decade.

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## Donatello

Storm Force said:


> Penumbra
> 
> dont be surprised if PAF drops 36 fc20 in favour of 36 J11B IE twin engined fighters


 


Maybe? Who knows?
What if J-10 gives similar performance and weapons integration as J-11? So PAF might stick with low cost single engine J-10s....


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## muse

> He was, j-10 is a whole new class of plane, and to go for it we need much *more funds*.




May I offer a speculation? What if anything does the size of the order have anything to do with why J10 has not made it in to the PAF


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## fatman17

the J-10/FC-20 facts are:

1- only a MoU was signed not a contract (for 36 examples)
2-PAF has sent its 'requirements/modifications' to China. no further news
3-the delivery window was to start from 2014-15 (if contract finalised which has not)
4-i doubt if its a funds issue.
5-China has not approached Russia to use its engine for the Pakistan order (if signed)
6-Chinese engine is a 'few years' away.


----------



## fatman17

* Ulan-Ude Aviation Plant (U-UAP)*

Mi-171Sh 'Hip-H'

Delivered; 6
Current; 6

- In service from 2005

- Note: The first 4 aircraft were delivered 2005 & 2006 for base SAR (search & rescue) operations, with an additional pair acquired in 2010.


AFI


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## fatman17

* Ulan-Ude Aviation Plant (U-UAP)*

Mi-171Sh 'Hip-H' 

Delivered;6
Current;6

- In service from 2005

- Note: The first 4 aircraft were delivered 2005 & 2006 for base SAR (search & rescue) operations, with an additional pair acquired in late 2010.

AFI

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## fatman17

*PAF graduates awarded degrees, trophies*

Staff Report

RISALPUR: A convocation ceremony was held at Pakistan Air Force Academy, Risalpur. Khyber Pakhtunkhwa Governor Barrister Syed Masood Kausar and National University of Sciences and Technology (NUST) Rector Lt Gen Muhammad Asghar were chief guests at the occasions respectively.

Barrister Masood Kausar, who is also chancellor of Peshawar University, congratulated the graduating officers and awarded Bachelor of Science degrees in different disciplines. Pilot Officer Sharista Baig was awarded a trophy for securing first position in humanities. Pilot Officer Muhammad Zeshan Anjum won a trophy for best performance in Aero-Sciences. Pilot Officer Zeshan Mehmood received a trophy for overall best performance in academics. Aviation Cadet Khalid-ur-Rehman received a trophy for overall best performance in A&SD course, while Aviation Cadet Muhammad Fahad received a trophy for overall best performance in AD course.

Lt Gen Muhammad Asghar awarded merit certificates and medals to the distinction holders. Merit certificate for best Aerospace Vehicle Design was awarded to Amir Abdullah, while merit certificate for best Avionics System Design was awarded to Kamran Zia. Rector&#8217;s gold medal for best project in Aerospace Engineering was awarded to the project of Muhammad Muneeb Safdar. Rector&#8217;s gold medal for best project in Avionics Engineering was given to Soaib Imran Abbasi and President&#8217;s gold medals for first positions in Aerospace and Avionics were awarded to Muhammad Adnan Khan and Salman Akhtar respectively


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## fatman17

muse said:


> May I offer a speculation? What if anything does the size of the order have anything to do with why J10 has not made it in to the PAF



36 examples will cost in excess of US$ 1 billion - this is not a small order


----------



## fatman17

Storm Force said:


> Penumbra
> 
> dont be surprised if PAF drops 36 fc20 in favour of 36 J11B IE twin engined fighters



quicker of the 2 possibilities


----------



## airbus101

warnesy world

The july issue of AFM has a 24 page supplement on the Pak AF JF-17 Thunder. Mag on sale may26 or Key's mail order dept now!


----------



## MJaa

Soo Who is going to receive unlimited thanks for his scanning effort of the 24 page supplement on JF-17 Thunder

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## MJaa

*So anyone with titbits from the JF-17 supplement ? *


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## Tempest II

MJaa said:


> *So anyone with titbits from the JF-17 supplement ? *


 
I dont think it is on sale yet  I have been to WHS everyday for the past 3 days and they still have the June issue on the shelves. I am beginning to think it will be some time next week or even the week after before we see the July issue.   Where did you get the information that it will be out on the 26th of May?


----------



## Windjammer

Tempest II said:


> I don&#8217;t think it is on sale yet &#8211; I have been to WHS everyday for the past 3 days and they still have the June issue on the shelves. I am beginning to think it will be some time next week or even the week after before we see the July issue. &#8230; &#8230; Where did you get the information that it will be out on the 26th of May?


 The supplement was to coincide with JF-17 appearing at Paris Air Show, which sadly is no happening.
Anyways, July issue is due out on 2nd June.


----------



## MJaa

Tempest II said:


> I don&#8217;t think it is on sale yet &#8211; I have been to WHS everyday for the past 3 days and they still have the June issue on the shelves. I am beginning to think it will be some time next week or even the week after before we see the July issue. &#8230; &#8230; *Where did you get the information that it will be out on the 26th of May?*


 


> warnesyworld Alan Warnes
> 
> The july issue of AFM has a 24 page supplement on the Pak AF JF-17 Thunder. *Mag on sale may26* or Key's mail order dept now!
> 24 May



mat be it will take few extra days for Pakistan

Anyways Thanks bro, *Keep Checking.* (With so many bad things happening just cant wait for many good news which will come with this supplement i guess)


----------



## Donatello

Windjammer said:


> The supplement was to coincide with JF-17 appearing at Paris Air Show, which sadly is no happening.
> Anyways, July issue is due out on 2nd June.


 

Why is JF-17 not appearing in Paris airshow?

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## fatman17

pls dont post the full supplement as it 'devalues' the information for subscribers in pakistan who get their copies later than UK subscribers.

Thanks for the understanding!


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## Xracer

Did pakistan Received all of its chinese awacs


----------



## hatf IX

Xracer said:


> Did pakistan Received all of its chinese awacs


 
i think no

as per my information (through defence forums) Pakistan is not satisfied so there will be a joint development in future . . . as per my info


----------



## MJaa

Xracer said:


> Did pakistan Received all of its chinese awacs


 
PAF has received three Saab-2000 Erieye AEW&C from Sweden while fourth one will arrive in June 2011. 

First Chinese ZDK-03 AEW&C was rolled out last year  and will be induced in next couple of months once the testing is completed in China while remaining three are scheduled to arrive at the end of this year.


----------



## phrozenflame

penumbra said:


> Why is JF-17 not appearing in Paris airshow?


Summary:






Details:
Alan Warnes: PAF Cancels JF-17 appearence at Paris Airshow | JF-17 Thunder


----------



## MJaa

*Got it, My Mistake*


----------



## MJaa

Few points from AFM

Testing firing of C802 Anti-ship missile will start soon

Chinese LGB are integrated and so is LS6 with 60km range

PAF still looking for western avionics and BVRAAM fit ( may be AFM's news is old as 2nd JF-17 batch now ordered)

Alan Warnes confirms PAF bagged several Eurofighters during Anatolian Eagle

Mirage-III ROSE-I air to air refuelling capability is test bed for PAC to fit similar on JF-17 Thunder

PAC aircraft manufacturing factory capacity at this time is 24 JF-17s per year

Picture of Dual seater JF-17 (looks amazing)

Picture of JF-17 Refueling with IL-78MRTT

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## humza_313

cant wait to get my hands on the new afm..!

---------- Post added at 03:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:00 PM ----------




MJaa said:


> Few points from AFM
> 
> Testing firing of C802 Anti-ship missile will start soon
> 
> Chinese LGB are integrated and so is LS6 with 60km range
> 
> PAF still looking for western avionics and BVRAAM fit ( may be AFM's news is old as 2nd JF-17 batch now ordered)
> 
> Alan Warnes confirms PAF bagged several Eurofighters during Anatolian Eagle
> 
> Mirage-III ROSE-I air to air refuelling capability is test bed for PAC to fit similar on JF-17 Thunder
> 
> PAC aircraft manufacturing factory capacity at this time is 24 JF-17s per year
> 
> Picture of Dual seater JF-17 (looks amazing)
> 
> Picture of JF-17 Refueling with IL-78MRTT



dual seat thunder...wow.. never heard of it..! thanks for the info


----------



## MJaa

humza_313 said:


> cant wait to get my hands on the new afm..!
> 
> ---------- Post added at 03:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:00 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> dual seat thunder...wow.. never heard of it..! thanks for the info


 
Both Picture of Dual seater JF-17 (looks amazing) and Picture of JF-17 Refueling with IL-78MRTT are Photoshop pics as both version have yet to enter into production


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## mirage 5000

some one please post that pics here .


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## MJaa

"Without BVR capability for most of its fleet PAF has prefected the art of within visual range air combat so much so that in 2008 Exercise Anatolian Eagle *PAF's F-16s fleeced the Eurofighter with a three out of three score in WVR combat*"--AFM

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## Windjammer

MJaa said:


> Both Picture of Dual seater JF-17 (looks amazing) and Picture of JF-17 Refueling with IL-78MRTT are Photoshop pics as both version have yet to enter into production



The picture of the Twin seater is also PS, it is planned but as the text says, PAF is in no hurry for the JF-17B Model.


----------



## MJaa

Windjammer said:


> The picture of the Twin seater is also PS, it is planned but as the text says, PAF is in no hurry for the JF-17B Model.


 
I know thats why i said "*Both *Picture of Dual seater JF-17 (looks amazing) and Picture of JF-17 Refueling with IL-78MRTT *are Photoshop pics* as both version have yet to enter into production"

Still both pics look amazing

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## MJaa

KLJ-7 Radar can search upto 40 tagests, Track up to 10 of them in Track while scan (TWS) mode and *fire simultaneously fire BVR missiles at 2 of them.-AFM*

*There is now a phased plan that will increase the level of Pakistani built co-developed Chinese avionics to 80% including assembly of KLJ-7 Radar at PAC kamra.-AFM
*

JF-17 is using the MB MK16 seat which are also used in the F-35

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## MJaa

PAF official to the French about Chinese avionics 2 years ago, ''You may not sell to us, but the Chinese are coming out with solutions matching or exceeding your systems.'' "and they have"


----------



## Adnan2k

Windjammer said:


> The picture of the Twin seater is also PS, it is planned but as the text says, PAF is in no hurry for the JF-17B Model.



Dear WJ, the two pictures in question are not PS, they're CGI's (Computer Generated Imagery)...there's absolutely no way one can get that level of photo-realism in PS. Nice to see state-of-the-art CGI work being done on the Thunder.

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## MJaa

Adnan2k said:


> Dear WJ, the two pictures in question are not PS, they're CGI's (Computer Generated Imagery)...there's absolutely no way one can get that level of photo-realism in PS. Nice to see state-of-the-art CGI work being done on the Thunder.


 
Really? This picture looks so real


----------



## fatman17

July 2011
Buy this issue online



NEWS

Headlines

United Kingdom

Europe

North America

Latin America

Middle East

Russia

Africa

Asia Pacific

Australasia and Contracts


RAF Tornado Squadrons Retire  Goodbye to 13 & 14
AFM reports from RAF Marham and RAF Lossiemouth as two Tornado GR4 squadrons disappear from the record book.

RAF Fast Jets in Libya  Sustainable? 
Andrew Brookes examines the issues faced by the RAF is supporting two overseas detachments simultaneously.

UH-72A Lakota in Europe
Kim Otten and Wim Das find out how Eurocopters UH-72A is being integrated into the US Army in Europe.

*JF-17  Thunder from the East
Alan Warnes takes a close look at this Chinese/Pakistan fighter in a 24-page special feature.*

Feedback
Views from the AFM readership.

American Muscle in India: the Super Hercules
Guy Martin looks at the latest customer to receive the C-130J.

India Goes Next-Gen
Sahail Ashraf reports on HALs Tejas LCA programme, set to shape the countrys military industry.

United States Air Force AWACS at a Crossroads
Robert F Dorr brings us up to date on the USAFs Boeing E-3 Sentry.

From Siberia with Love
Alexander Mladenov is one of the first non-Russian journalists to go behind the scenes at the Ulan-Ude Aviation Plant.

Netherlands  Military Cuts and Consequences
In an exclusive for AFM, Kees van der Mark looks at how the recent Dutch defence cuts will impact the air force.

*Russian Rotary Night Hunter
The Mi-28N is described by Alexander Mladenov*.

Programme Future Brize
Derek Bower visited RAF Brize Norton to see how the base is being prepared to become the RAFs transport hub.

Attrition
AFMs Dave Allport reports on the worlds latest military aviation accidents.

Tailpiece  Eyes of the Tiger
Looking ahead to next months Tiger Meet report.

Available Now

Buy this issue online


----------



## humza_313

MJaa said:


> Both Picture of Dual seater JF-17 (looks amazing) and Picture of JF-17 Refueling with IL-78MRTT are Photoshop pics as both version have yet to enter into production



YES... a friend of mine " syed zohaib zaidi" has done some amazing work on photshop related to a-a refueling. here is the link to his work

PAF Falcons - PAF s' Wallpapers


----------



## humza_313

i have managed to find some link to a predicted photoshop image of dual jf-17

Military Photoshops: Dual Seat Jf-17


----------



## humza_313

fatman17 said:


> July 2011
> Buy this issue online
> 
> 
> 
> NEWS
> 
> Headlines
> 
> United Kingdom
> 
> Europe
> 
> North America
> 
> Latin America
> 
> Middle East
> 
> Russia
> 
> Africa
> 
> Asia Pacific
> 
> Australasia and Contracts
> 
> 
> RAF Tornado Squadrons Retire &#8211; Goodbye to 13 & 14
> AFM reports from RAF Marham and RAF Lossiemouth as two Tornado GR4 squadrons disappear from the record book.
> 
> RAF Fast Jets in Libya &#8211; Sustainable?
> Andrew Brookes examines the issues faced by the RAF is supporting two overseas detachments simultaneously.
> 
> UH-72A Lakota in Europe
> Kim Otten and Wim Das find out how Eurocopter&#8217;s UH-72A is being integrated into the US Army in Europe.
> 
> *JF-17 &#8211; Thunder from the East
> Alan Warnes takes a close look at this Chinese/Pakistan fighter in a 24-page special feature.*
> 
> Feedback
> Views from the AFM readership.
> 
> American Muscle in India: the Super Hercules
> Guy Martin looks at the latest customer to receive the C-130J.
> 
> India Goes &#8216;Next-Gen&#8217;
> Sahail Ashraf reports on HAL&#8217;s Tejas LCA programme, set to shape the country&#8217;s military industry.
> 
> United States Air Force AWACS at a Crossroads
> Robert F Dorr brings us up to date on the USAF&#8217;s Boeing E-3 Sentry.
> 
> From Siberia with Love
> Alexander Mladenov is one of the first non-Russian journalists to go behind the scenes at the Ulan-Ude Aviation Plant.
> 
> Netherlands &#8211; Military Cuts and Consequences
> In an exclusive for AFM, Kees van der Mark looks at how the recent Dutch defence cuts will impact the air force.
> 
> *Russian Rotary Night Hunter
> The Mi-28N is described by Alexander Mladenov*.
> 
> Programme Future Brize
> Derek Bower visited RAF Brize Norton to see how the base is being prepared to become the RAF&#8217;s transport hub.
> 
> Attrition
> AFM&#8217;s Dave Allport reports on the world&#8217;s latest military aviation accidents.
> 
> Tailpiece &#8211; Eyes of the Tiger
> Looking ahead to next month&#8217;s Tiger Meet report.
> 
> Available Now
> 
> Buy this issue online


 
interesting!!! especially the alan warnes report.!


----------



## S-A-B-E-R->

guys y is PAC making KLJ 7 when we r getting AESA?


----------



## Adnan2k

MJaa said:


> Really? This picture looks so real


 
Indeed they do. Those two 3D Animated CGI's must have taken weeks or months to make.


----------



## alimobin memon

S-A-B-E-R-> said:


> guys y is PAC making KLJ 7 when we r getting AESA?


 might be klj-7 aesa or pesa version !!!


----------



## Donatello

Windjammer said:


> The picture of the Twin seater is also PS, it is planned but as the text says, PAF is in no hurry for the JF-17B Model.


 

Windjammer,

How are the pilots being trained without a twin seater JF-17? Don't you think this will be a considerable drawback in terms of training?


----------



## Najam Khan

penumbra said:


> Windjammer,
> 
> How are the pilots being trained without a twin seater JF-17? Don't you think this will be a considerable drawback in terms of training?


 
No, IMO with advancement of technology simulators have become more close to the aircraft. All pilots get initial training on all types of missions and in-flight emergency situations. 

Back in old days,Dual seat F-6 (ie FT-6) arrived nine years after induction of F-6, but the quality standards in training were not compromised.


----------



## fatman17

simulators aside, once the JF-17 is inducted in large numbers, a twin-seater' will become necessary IMO.


----------



## SQ8

fatman17 said:


> simulators aside, once the JF-17 is inducted in large numbers, a twin-seater' will become necessary IMO.


 
Perhaps.. however.. even for the F-35 there is no twin seater on the immediate roadmap. It is envisaged that pilots having spent time on the simulator would be very familiar with the flight characteristics of the jet as to not need a checkride with an instructor.
And the various recovery options available to a newbie F-35 driver would eliminate the need for an instructor.
Maybe PAC should look into this for the JF as well.


----------



## Aamir Hussain

I may be wrong here but if JFT is going to be used in future as a nuclear weapons carrier, they would need to use a twin seater for that as they would need an ordinance/navigation officer along with the pilot. This is being done to ensure dual control and safety. 

That is why we see relatively higher numbers of twin seaters ordered/acquired as compared to previous orders for both Mirage's and F-16's.


----------



## fatman17

Santro said:


> Perhaps.. however.. even for the F-35 there is no twin seater on the immediate roadmap. It is envisaged that pilots having spent time on the simulator would be very familiar with the flight characteristics of the jet as to not need a checkride with an instructor.
> And the various recovery options available to a newbie F-35 driver would eliminate the need for an instructor.
> Maybe PAC should look into this for the JF as well.



yes but they have modern jet trainers, while we still operate the T-37 and K-8 for our pilots for advanced jet training.

maybe what i shd have written was the need for a dual-seat / dual-role OCU


----------



## SQ8

fatman17 said:


> yes but they have modern jet trainers, while we still operate the T-37 and K-8 for our pilots for advanced jet training.
> 
> maybe what i shd have written was the need for a dual-seat / dual-role OCU


 
With the current finances, no one knows.. 
Perhaps its not a bad idea to bring in the JL-9 at a later stage.
Although the JL-15 was a very attractive option.. economics of scale favor the JL-9.

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## MJaa

Santro said:


> With the current finances, no one knows..
> Perhaps its not a bad idea to bring in the JL-9 at a later stage.
> Although the JL-15 was a very attractive option.. economics of scale favor the JL-9.


 
Sir i think PAF should only choose dual seater version of JF-17 for LIFT role 

This will keep the much need money in home 

Increased production will also reduce the overall price of JFT 

Additional JFT available for the attack role if required.

Reduce logistic support due to decrease in number.

Another market for JF-17 Tunder in LIFT to compete in especially in Middle East


----------



## SQ8

MJaa said:


> Sir i think PAF should only choose dual seater version of JF-17 for LIFT role
> 
> This will keep the much need money in home
> 
> Increased production will also reduce the overall price of JFT
> 
> Additional JFT available for the attack role if required.
> 
> Reduce logistic support due to decrease in number.
> 
> Another market for JF-17 Tunder in LIFT to compete in especially in Middle East


 
The Thunder "B" would be a very large LIFT then.. would it not?
And there is already competition from existing designs such as the T/A-50 from Korea, the M-346, the Mig-AT and not to mention the L-15 itself.

For a home role too it would seem redundant to have a relatively medium sized jet performing LIFT duties, unless they strip it down to the bare minimum.
the RD-93 does not come without its spare supply constrained.
A JL-9 offers faster conversion for the Mianwali based units.. and much easier logistical transition. After all, it will simply be a F-7 with a redesigned nose.


----------



## MJaa

Santro said:


> The Thunder "B" would be a very large LIFT then.. would it not?



*JF-17 LIFT will be of same size as that of South Korean T/A-50 Golden Eagle 
*

General characteristics
Crew: 2
Length: 12.98 m 
Wingspan: 9.17 m 
Height: 4.78 m 
*Empty weight: 6,450 kg 
**Max takeoff weight: 13,500 kg 
*Powerplant: 1× General Electric F404 afterburning turbofan
Dry thrust: 53.07 kN 
*Thrust with afterburner: 78.7 kN 
*
*L-15 comes very close in size at around 10,000kg have twin engines and almost same price offer not to mention the promotion of it by china as light figher (Should PAF help its cause by purchasing it?)
*
Max takeoff weight: 10,000kg
*Max Speed: Mach 1.4
**2x AI-222-25F afterburning 42 KN (Total of 84KN)
*
*Real LIFT Trainer for European air forces was EADS Mako which got cancelled due to lack of funding 
*

Crew: 1, attack variant; 2, trainer
Length: 13.75 m
Wingspan: 8.25 m 
Height: 4.5 m 
Empty weight: 6200 kg (5800 in trainer variant) 
Max takeoff weight: 13000 kg 
*Powerplant: 1 × General Electric F414M (up to 22.000 lb thrust (98 kN) with afterburner)
*Performance
*Maximum speed: Mach 1.5 
*Range: 3700 km Ferry
Service ceiling: 15240 m 
Armament
Guns: 1x 27 mm gun
*Hardpoints: 7 with a capacity of 4.500 kg
*

and advantages of local production, reduce cost, reduce types, less training time (as pilots will next move to the JF-17 itself) ability to modify as required are way too many to to ignore 

as far as spare supply constrain is concerned if it doesn't effect PAF plans for 250 JF-17s why would it effect 50 odd LIFT versions




Santro said:


> A JL-9 offers faster conversion for the Mianwali based units.. and much easier logistical transition. After all, it will simply be a F-7 with a redesigned nose.


 
PAF is already looking at the JF-17 as a replacement for its F-7 (i know it will be atleast another decade before it will be out of service) but still JL-9 is a interim solution for PLAAF.

L-15 is still being developed as JL-9 while cheap cant meet all the LIFT requirements of modern 4th and 5th gen aircrafts.

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## SQ8

Then it makes no sense to make a JF LIFT at all.. Why have a handicapped jet when you can have a fullt capable one?
Its better to have students training on a no frills spared JF-17B.. then move onto operational units.
Which works okay with the F-7 OCU.. 
But then you need another OCU for the Mirages and the F-16.. and others.
There will always be need for new pilots to go on the F-16(while it lasts..as the FC-20 comes in).

A fully operational Jet worth millions training students that make mistakes??
Not a good idea..

The problem isnt even a LIFT.. the K-8 can serve that purpose (if a little less efficiently) as well.
The problem is having an intermediate platform..


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## tenantfile

Nice information.I am interested in updating my news information related to Air Force.I saw your this post first time.Find interesting things.Thanks.


----------



## fatman17

Santro said:


> With the current finances, no one knows..
> Perhaps its not a bad idea to bring in the JL-9 at a later stage.
> Although the JL-15 was a very attractive option.. economics of scale favor the JL-9.



there is a deal where china will supply 4 trainers to the PAF for evaluation (reported elsewhere). it is most likely the JL-9 or FT-2000 dual-seal advanced trainer which BTW has been selected by the PLAAF over the L-15


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## fatman17

we have always had OCU for the Mirages, F-16s, F-7P/PGs. another OCU at Mianwali wont make much difference as the Mirages will be de-commissioned steadily.


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## humza_313

fatman17 said:


> there is a deal where china will supply 4 trainers to the PAF for evaluation (reported elsewhere). it is most likely the JL-9 or FT-2000 dual-seal advanced trainer which BTW has been selected by the PLAAF over the L-15



yes i heard about these trainers, a few weeks back. China is supplying an initial batch of 4 trainers, free of cost to PAF. this AJT would be the best option to replace the T-37 for BFT purposes..


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## fatman17

humza_313 said:


> yes i heard about these trainers, a few weeks back. China is supplying an initial batch of 4 trainers, free of cost to PAF. this AJT would be the best option to replace the T-37 for BFT purposes..



well its not FOC. the deal is worth nearly 60mUSD plus training.


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## MJaa

Santro said:


> Then it makes no sense to make a JF LIFT at all.. Why have a handicapped jet when you can have a fullt capable one?
> Its better to have students training on a no frills spared JF-17B.. then move onto operational units.
> Which works okay with the F-7 OCU..
> But then you need another OCU for the Mirages and the F-16.. and others.
> There will always be need for new pilots to go on the F-16(while it lasts..as the FC-20 comes in).
> 
> A fully operational Jet worth millions training students that make mistakes??
> Not a good idea..
> 
> The problem isnt even a LIFT.. the K-8 can serve that purpose (if a little less efficiently) as well.
> The problem is having an intermediate platform..


 
K-8 is serving as basic and advance jet trainer but it is simply not capable of LIFT (or intermediate platform as you call it) role as it cant prepare PAF pilots for supersonic performance and new generation of advance weapons training.

Simply putting there is no LIFT (beside JL-9 which is technological obsolete) which will cost less. South Korean T/A-50 cost around 25 million and Chinese are promoting L-15 at around 15 million which is also the cost of baseline JF-17 thunder.

So why should PAF go for * less capable aircraft which will cost almost same, require higher maintaince due to double engines, new logistical support system, cost of introducing new type and paying to a foreign company which will push it as competitor in light weight fighter category *over JF-17 Thunder which will keep our production lines running, bring the over all cost of JF-17 thunder down and potential to enter into a new market with JF-17B


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## Windjammer

As the AFM article states, albeit a two seater Thunder is being planned but considering the PAF flew the F-6 and F-7 for a number of years before a twin stick version appeared, the appearance of a JF-17B is some times away. 
In any case, even without the dual seater, two squadrons are already operational, hence IMO, the future prospect may be for a specialised role Thunder.

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## fatman17

Windjammer said:


> As the AFM article states, albeit a two seater Thunder is being planned but considering the PAF flew the F-6 and F-7 for a number of years before a twin stick version appeared, the appearance of a JF-17B is some times away.
> In any case, even without the dual seater, two squadrons are already operational, hence IMO, the future prospect may be for a specialised role Thunder.



AFM may be right but since the PAF has a ambitious plan to induct anywhere from 150 to 250 a/c of different 'blocks' and roles, a dual-seater trainer becomes very critical in ramping up the training of new as well as senior pilots to the type. F-6, F-7 were never inducted in the numbers the PAF has planned for the JFT - all we need is a AJT, it dosnt have to be JF-17B.

this is how i feel. i'm not a pilot but just a retired 'ground digger'!

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## monitor

Of course Pakistan should manufacture a duel sit variant for its jf-17 so that it can serve those air force who would like to get a trainer cum light attack aircraft . this also brighten the export potential of JF-17 significantly and ultimately reduce the production cost per aircraft as production will increase .


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## Najam Khan

Windjammer said:


> As the AFM article states, albeit a two seater Thunder is being planned but considering the PAF flew the F-6 and F-7 for a number of years before a twin stick version appeared, the appearance of a JF-17B is some times away.


 
Exaclty my point, instead of utilizing energy in twin seat PAC/CAC wants to build a good fighter first. I remember the first air-to-ground test of Thunders in Pakistan was done at Thal(in mid 2008), cannons were tested...a pilot once told me that we want to increase bullets capicity...it was 150 back in 2008,, iam sure it has been increased now.

The Thunder's dogfights with F16s, helped T&E pilots in understanding the limitations of a/c in real world scenario...though two-seat a/c have edge in dogfight as two minds are better than one....but PAF want one mind trained enough to counter two minds.

IMO their is no need to have a dual seat version now, once the a/c is fully operational then we can think of having a dual seat for OCUs or weapons controller for a later block.

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## Windjammer

fatman17 said:


> AFM may be right but since the PAF has a ambitious plan to induct anywhere from 150 to 250 a/c of different 'blocks' and roles, a dual-seater trainer becomes very critical in ramping up the training of new as well as senior pilots to the type. F-6, F-7 were never inducted in the numbers the PAF has planned for the JFT - all we need is a AJT, it dosnt have to be JF-17B.
> 
> this is how i feel. i'm not a pilot but just a retired 'ground digger'!


 In the initial order of 40 F-16s, there were 8 Twin seater models and the latest Block-52s include 6 of the "D" versions. Apart from their OCU concept, the dual models have proved very effective for night time operations and the "Wild Weasel" types of adoptions. Since the JFT is well on it's way of becoming PAF's mainstay, suffice to say, apart from training, it will be adopted for the enhanced operations role.


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## humza_313

Windjammer said:


> In the initial order of 40 F-16s, there were 8 Twin seater models and the latest Block-52s include 6 of the "D" versions. Apart from their OCU concept, the dual models have proved very effective for night time operations and the "Wild Weasel" types of adoptions. Since the JFT is well on it's way of becoming PAF's mainstay, suffice to say, apart from training, it will be adopted for the enhanced operations role.



Yes there is an utter need for some dual JFTs. 

weren't the 'wild weasles' used during vietnam war?


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## khanasifm

In PAF histroy, 1998 2008 one reason for high A-5 accident rate identified by the PAF was no dual seater and using FT-6 with high thrust ratio of .83 vs A5 .68 as major factor. A5 being nose heavy and its hyralic driven control system being same for F6 and A5 needing more mussel power. The PAF was flying A5 like a fighter rather than ground attack /CAS and pilot went into uncontrolled loop/spin etc. I guess for JF-17 because of flight simulators now this may not be the case, so dual seater is not high priority. Secondly PAF/Pak has to pay for its development.
First 150 will replace 2 A5 and 6 additional sqdn there fore Mirage and F7PG will remain till PAF reach 250 which will cover remaining Mirage Sqdn. PG may be replaced by something different???? 2025???


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## fatman17

Windjammer said:


> In the initial order of 40 F-16s, there were *8 Twin seater models* and the latest Block-52s include 6 of the "D" versions. Apart from their OCU concept, the dual models have proved very effective for night time operations and the "Wild Weasel" types of adoptions. Since the JFT is well on it's way of becoming PAF's mainstay, suffice to say, apart from training, it will be adopted for the enhanced operations role.



there were 12 F-16B's - the high number of two-seaters were ordered to 'ramp-up' training for the upcoming induction of 10+60 F-16A/B which were un-fortunately embargoed. remember PAF's initial plans were to have a F-16 force of 110 a/c.

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## epinephrine

THANX A BUNCH FOR THE SCANS


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## monitor

Thanks for the scan but nothing is readable . i have to wait till it comes to Dhaka's flee market .


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## Donatello

monitor said:


> Thanks for the scan but nothing is readable . i have to wait till it comes to Dhaka's flee market .


 
Nothing? You kidding me kid. Everything is readable. Just click on the yellow bar on top of pictures to zoom in and it becomes clearer.


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## humza_313

khanasifm said:


> In PAF histroy, 1998 2008 one reason for high A-5 accident rate identified by the PAF was no dual seater and using FT-6 with high thrust ratio of .83 vs A5 .68 as major factor. A5 being nose heavy and its hyralic driven control system being same for F6 and A5 needing more mussel power. The PAF was flying A5 like a fighter rather than ground attack /CAS and pilot went into uncontrolled loop/spin etc. I guess for JF-17 because of flight simulators now this may not be the case, so dual seater is not high priority. Secondly PAF/Pak has to pay for its development.
> First 150 will replace 2 A5 and 6 additional sqdn there fore Mirage and F7PG will remain till PAF reach 250 which will cover remaining Mirage Sqdn. PG may be replaced by something different???? 2025???



PG's might be decommissioned most probably by 2016. in addition to the JFTs, PAF will also acquire the J-10Bs by 2014 which might replace 2 squadrons of f-7Ps.


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## alimobin memon

not necessarily PAF might go for more j10b than expected in future i-e 2015 because of India's big aircraft procurement i think it was also mentioned that procurement j10b might eventually go for 150.


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## SQ8

The scans are a copyright violation.
BUY the mag.. 
Im deleting the scans till next months issue.. when you can post them again.

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## fatman17

Santro said:


> The scans are a copyright violation.
> BUY the mag..
> Im deleting the scans till next months issue.. when you can post them again.



thank you very much indeed !

folks dont spoil it for other subscribers!!!


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## fatman17

khanasifm said:


> In PAF histroy, 1998 2008 one reason for high A-5 accident rate identified by the PAF was no dual seater and using FT-6 with high thrust ratio of .83 vs A5 .68 as major factor. A5 being nose heavy and its hyralic driven control system being same for F6 and A5 needing more mussel power. The PAF was flying A5 like a fighter rather than ground attack /CAS and pilot went into uncontrolled loop/spin etc. I guess for JF-17 because of flight simulators now this may not be the case, so dual seater is not high priority. Secondly PAF/Pak has to pay for its development.
> First 150 will replace 2 A5 and 6 additional sqdn there fore Mirage and F7PG will remain till PAF reach 250 which will cover remaining Mirage Sqdn. PG may be replaced by something different???? 2025???



true but after almost 22 modifications, the A-5 became a safe a/c and well liked by its drivers


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## Donatello

Hamza,

Though we appreciate your efforts to scan and upload the Magazine, Santro (the moderator) had deleted such posts in the past, because this is a copyright issue, unless you specifically had permission from Alan Warnes or someone from the AFM.

The guy, Alan Warnes, has made a concerted effort to bring us all this wonderful supplement and by putting his work online you are cutting short the appreciation, he would otherwise get, when people actually buy the magazine.

Please remove your posts, until the next issue becomes available, because i am sure the MODs are gonna delete this.

thanks.

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## CallsignAlzaeem

Yes totally agreed with penumbra,Just yesterday the mod deleted those scans and here they are being uploaded again,I appreciate his effort but thats a serious copyright issue which could get this site into trouble also.

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## blain2

Monitor,

Please avoid posting these here. I hope you understand that all of us value what Alan Warnes does in terms of reporting the ongoings within the PAF and we would like to support his efforts by trying to purchase copies of AFM. Whosoever posted it at Flickr is in violation of copyright. Lets not get this forum involved in this violation. 
Thank you!

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## Silk

Alan Warnes is such a nice guy and I think we should not do stupid thinks to on of our best aviation friends. I understand that we want to have the news but wait just a month or buy the mag cause it is hardly expensive.

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## humza_313

penumbra said:


> Hamza,
> 
> Though we appreciate your efforts to scan and upload the Magazine, Santro (the moderator) had deleted such posts in the past, because this is a copyright issue, unless you specifically had permission from Alan Warnes or someone from the AFM.
> 
> The guy, Alan Warnes, has made a concerted effort to bring us all this wonderful supplement and by putting his work online you are cutting short the appreciation, he would otherwise get, when people actually buy the magazine.
> 
> Please remove your posts, until the next issue becomes available, because i am sure the MODs are gonna delete this.
> 
> thanks.


 

OK no problem....


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## cfldad

a footprint


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## humza_313

Silk said:


> Alan Warnes is such a nice guy and I think we should not do stupid thinks to on of our best aviation friends. I understand that we want to have the news but wait just a month or buy the mag cause it is hardly expensive.



For god's sake people.. why have you become stooges. even our own hilal magazine is first released on the internet before the hard copies are sold out in the market. it is very obvious that KING ALAN WARNES is making some good business here. i kept quiet for a month but now it's enough. 

do you have any idea that man has access to all PAF records, Bases, flight logs and history. he can go into the Air chief's office without appointment. he has permission to take snaps of our bases, fighters and assets. BUT ..if a normal civilian like me or you tries to take snaps of an aircraft ..... the intelligence would be there in time... they would ask you strange questions and humiliate you. 2 of my friends have experienced this fate.

KING ALAN WARNES is a regular visitor to india and is also affiliated with their airforce. try to understand the big drama guys. just because Alan warnes's copyright is violated and he gets disturbed ....he doesn't want any images of his MAG posted on forums.

i hope you understand what iam trying to say and this is no JOKE....!

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## humza_313

wo hamary phupphi ka beta nahin hai jo hum uski itni fikar kar rahay hain......!

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## Pfpilot

humza_313 said:


> For god's sake people.. why have you become stooges. even our own hilal magazine is first released on the internet before the hard copies are sold out in the market. it is very obvious that KING ALAN WARNES is making some good business here. i kept quiet for a month but now it's enough.
> 
> do you have any idea that man has access to all PAF records, Bases, flight logs and history. he can go into the Air chief's office without appointment. he has permission to take snaps of our bases, fighters and assets. BUT ..if a normal civilian like me or you tries to take snaps of an aircraft ..... the intelligence would be there in time... they would ask you strange questions and humiliate you. 2 of my friends have experienced this fate.
> 
> KING ALAN WARNES is a regular visitor to india and is also affiliated with their airforce. try to understand the big drama guys. just because Alan warnes's copyright is violated and he gets disturbed ....he doesn't want any images of his MAG posted on forums.
> 
> i hope you understand what iam trying to say and this is no JOKE....!


 
I am not going to argue with your opinion, you are entitled to it...but its his work and he has every right to earn money off its sales...posting it on here means a bunch of people will never buy the magazine and since he is literally one of the few to present our armed forces in a positive light, it is a sad thing for us to go ahead and post all his latest work for free...and lets not forget this is copyrighted, I know most people dont care about that on the internet because we can all hide behind our computers but it is wrong and it is essentially like stealing...Im not trying to attack you, just saying why the mods would prefer to keep the mag from being posted...and many of us appreciate and understand that.


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## Najam Khan

humza_313 said:


> For god's sake people.. why have you become stooges. even our own hilal magazine is first released on the internet before the hard copies are sold out in the market. it is very obvious that KING ALAN WARNES is making some good business here. i kept quiet for a month but now it's enough.
> 
> do you have any idea that man has access to all PAF records, Bases, flight logs and history. he can go into the Air chief's office without appointment. he has permission to take snaps of our bases, fighters and assets. BUT ..if a normal civilian like me or you tries to take snaps of an aircraft ..... the intelligence would be there in time... they would ask you strange questions and humiliate you. 2 of my friends have experienced this fate.
> 
> KING ALAN WARNES is a regular visitor to india and is also affiliated with their airforce. try to understand the big drama guys. just because Alan warnes's copyright is violated and he gets disturbed ....he doesn't want any images of his MAG posted on forums.
> 
> i hope you understand what iam trying to say and this is no JOKE....!


 


As far as Alan Warne's privileges are concerned, he is not given full access to anything, neither he jumps to any place without permission....his every visit is properly planned...PAF makes sure he sees nothing 'un-usual', he being a professional makes sure that trust is not lost.

Its been 11yrs he is working for PAF...the reason for his work with four air chiefs is simple, he is a trustworthy person.


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## humza_313

NAjAM Khan said:


> Mr.Hamza most of the things written in this post are complete BS. Alan Warnes is the official photographer of PAF, all of his pictures & videos are used anytime, anywhere for PAF internal use...he gets paid for delivering what PAF needs....a good PR!
> 
> As far as his privileges are concerned, he is not given full access to anything, neither he jumps to any place without permission....his every visit is properly planned...PAF makes sure he sees nothing 'un-usual', he being a professional makes sure that trust is not lost.
> 
> Its been 11yrs he is working for PAF...the reason for his work with four air chiefs is simple, he is a trustworthy person.



that is where most of the people are mistaken. there are thousands of pakistanis who can use a camera. that is not my point of argue. what i do not like is that he has access to every single thing in the PAF. and he has regular visits to indian bases. in this manner the U.S are also our " so called allies" but what they are currently doing is well known to everyone. maybe iam wrong in my opinion but these are the facts that i could make up. 

how can you be so sure that he might have never shared a single secret with the U.S OR India... 

think about it........


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## Windjammer

humza_313 said:


> For god's sake people.. why have you become stooges. even our own hilal magazine is first released on the internet before the hard copies are sold out in the market. it is very obvious that KING ALAN WARNES is making some good business here. i kept quiet for a month but now it's enough.
> 
> do you have any idea that man has access to all PAF records, Bases, flight logs and history. he can go into the Air chief's office without appointment. he has permission to take snaps of our bases, fighters and assets. BUT ..if a normal civilian like me or you tries to take snaps of an aircraft ..... the intelligence would be there in time... they would ask you strange questions and humiliate you. 2 of my friends have experienced this fate.
> 
> KING ALAN WARNES is a regular visitor to india and is also affiliated with their airforce. try to understand the big drama guys. just because Alan warnes's copyright is violated and he gets disturbed ....he doesn't want any images of his MAG posted on forums.
> 
> i hope you understand what iam trying to say and this is no JOKE....!


 
My dear, it's not quite simple as that, Alan Warnes went to Pakistan to cover the Block-52 induction ceremony, but didn't get the clearance to visit Shabaz Air Base, and returned a few days earlier. He was completely unaware of the joint Sino/Pak Airforces exercise, in fact he advised me not to believe in all i read on the internet and insisted no such exercise was being conducted, however once I posted him pictures of PLAAF aircraft in Pakistan, he became aware of the event. As for his affiliation with the Indian air force, I wonder how many articles has he written on the IAF.
BTW, he has just retuned from Turkey after covering the air show and promises some good material on the PAF in coming months.


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## Pfpilot

Windjammer said:


> My dear, it's not quite simple as that, Alan Warnes went to Pakistan to cover the Block-52 induction ceremony, but didn't get the clearance to visit Shabaz Air Base, and returned a few days earlier. He was completely unaware of the joint Sino/Pak Airforces exercise, in fact he advised me not to believe in all i read on the internet and insisted no such exercise was being conducted, however once I posted him pictures of PLAAF aircraft in Pakistan, he became aware of the event. As for his affiliation with the Indian air force, I wonder how many articles has he written on the IAF.
> BTW, he has just retuned from Turkey after covering the air show and promises some good material on the PAF in coming months.


 
If you dont me asking me asking, how come he was denied access to Shahbaz airbase? Does it have anything to do with the Americans? Many countries now have block 52s and there isnt much remaining secretive about them.


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## MastanKhan

humza_313 said:


> wo hamary phupphi ka beta nahin hai jo hum uski itni fikar kar rahay hain......!


 
Sir,,

You still don't get it----do you now. Friends are difficult to come by.


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## fatman17

Generation game


Gareth Jennings - Aviation Desk Editor - London

The F-22 Raptor is the yardstick against which all fifth-generation aircraft are measured, but as production nears an end, what next? 

Although the exact origins of the term fifth-generation fighter are unclear - some say it was a clever marketing ploy by Lockheed Martin to distinguish the F-22 and F-35 from its competitors, while others suggest that it was first coined by Russia in the mid-1990s to describe its latest machinery - it has become a widely accepted term for categorising the new breed of tactical stealth aircraft in service and under development throughout the world. 

While an aspect of low observable (LO) or 'stealth' technology appears to be the distinguishing feature of such aircraft, it is but one of a number of capability attributes that define a fifth-generation fighter aircraft. 

Since the term was first used, something of a consensus has been largely agreed upon as to just what capabilities are embodied in such a fighter. Broadly speaking, this consensus maintains that a fifth-generation fighter should combine the attributes of stealth, speed (supercruise) and sensor fusion. 

Even so, different companies and countries have differing views on what exactly constitutes a fifth-generation fighter aircraft. Some companies such as Boeing, Eurofighter and Saab view the term disparagingly, citing fifth-generation facets to their supposedly fourth-generation designs. This, coupled with the fact that China, one of the world's foremost fighter producers, uses a different generational system entirely - it classifies aircraft as fourth-generation that would otherwise be recognised as fifth-generation in the West - makes it surprising that such a consensus exists at all. 

Nevertheless, setting the protestations of many of the fourth-plus-generation manufacturers and China's unorthodoxy aside, it is generally accepted that there are currently seven fifth-generation aircraft types currently in service or in development around the world: the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor; the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter (JSF); the Sukhoi T-50 PAK-FA/Fifth-Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA); the Chengdu Aircraft Corporation (CAC) J-20; the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA); the Mitsubushi Heavy Industries ATD-X; and the Korea Aerospace Industries KFX. 

Of these, only the F-22 has entered service, having made its operational debut with the US Air Force (USAF) in 1998. Still very much the yardstick by which all other fifth-generation aircraft are measured, the F-22 is now coming to the end of its production run with the 195th and final aircraft set to roll off the production line later this year. 

Termed 'the drive to 195' by Lockheed Martin, this effort has already seen the final mid-fuselage section delivered to the final assembly line (FAL) in Marietta, Georgia. The final aft-fuselage and wings are expected to arrive at the FAL facility from Boeing in June. Boeing will also be building two additional sets of wings for spares and some elements of the aft fuselage in the event that the air force needs to replace battle-damaged aircraft in the future. 

Although production is nearing its end, the evolution of the Raptor's capabilities is not. As Lockheed Martin has proceeded through the aircraft's production runs, the company has incorporated various enhancements to the baseline capability. 

"The planes that are rolling off the line now are the most reliable we've ever built and exceed the actual KPPs [key performance parameters] that we were given for mean-time between maintenance," Jeff Babione, vice-president and general manager of the F-22 programme, told during a recent tour of the Fort Worth FAL. 

As production has progressed, additional reliability and capability upgrades have been incorporated. Lockheed Martin is currently delivering Increment 2 aircraft to the USAF and is looking at getting a start release for Increment 3.1. 

While increment upgrades have, to date, focused on improving the Raptor's air-to-air capability, Increment 3.1 is chiefly concerned with enhancing the aircraft in the air-to-surface role. To this end, Increment 3.1 includes incorporating the GBU-39 Small Diameter Bomb (the aircraft can carry eight internally and is the only platform that can launch the low-collateral munition supersonically to increase its standoff range to about 90 n miles), synthetic aperture radar (SAR) mapping, geo-location targeting capabilities and an electronic warfare/self-protection capability. 

Primarily a software upgrade, Increment 3.1 began development in 2008. Follow-on testing and evaluation started in January 2011 and will continue until mid-2012. The current fleet will then undergo a retrofit, which is set to last until 2017. 

Once Increment 3.1 is in place, Lockheed Martin will revert back to improving the Raptor's air-to-air capability with Increment 3.2. This upgrade is planned to integrate the Raytheon AIM-120D Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missile (AMRAAM) and the AIM-9X Sidewinder air-to-air missile onto the aircraft. These missiles will give the aircraft an increased off-boresight capability, which will greatly enhance its lethality. 

Other Increment 3.2 improvements include incorporating geo-location targeting capabilities to reduce the time taken to capture an emitter and to put a bomb on target, along with advanced datalinks such as the Multifunction Advanced Data Link (MADL). MADL, which is also earmarked for the Lockheed Martin F-35 and the Northrop Grumman B-2, will enable all the USAF's LO platforms to talk to each other in an 'anti-access environment'. Increment 3.2 is to be fitted to all Block 30 and 35 aircraft - 150 jets in all. 

According to Babione, Increment 3.2 will begin to be phased in about 2014. "We believe the customer will ask us to release that [3.2] capability incrementally in two-year timeframes," he said. "The whole point [of these upgrades] is to stay in advance of the threat." 

In the meantime, the F-22 is currently the only fifth-generation fighter delivering on its promises of air dominance. To date, the Raptor has been deployed to 20 different locations, from Alaska to the United Arab Emirates, and although there have been concerns raised about its mission-capable rates (mainly as a result of issues surrounding maintaining the aircraft's LO coatings), the type currently boasts the highest tasking as a percentage of any of the fighters in the USAF's fleet. About 10 to 15 per cent of the Raptor force is deployed at any given time. 

Even though the F-22 has not yet been fielded in combat, the exercises in which it has participated have proven it to be a more than capable air-dominance platform. During Exercise 'Valiant Shield' in Guam in 2010, the F-22 scored 168 kills against advanced surface and air threats and generated a 90 per cent sortie rate. 

However, with production coming to an end and no prospect in sight of the US government re-starting the manufacturing line, Lockheed Martin is beginning to focus its attentions less on the here and now of production and more on the fleet's future sustainability. 

The company's key priority right now is in ensuring that the expertise of the F-22 workforce (most of whom have been with the programme from its inception) will not be lost to future maintainers. 

Tools of the trade

"One of the key conversations we have had over the past year is: 'What are we going to do with all the tooling?'" Babione said. "The direction from the air force right now is to preserve all 30,000 of the government-owned tools. Many of those will be stored in place at the vendors with some 20,000 being stored in CONEX shipping containers [some of which will be environmentally controlled]. These will be stored at the Sierra Army Depot, California." 

As well as preserving its tools, Lockheed Martin has also set about archiving its knowledge by compiling electronic smartbooks for each of the major assembly tools. This is aimed at providing detailed instructions on how to use each tool and will, said Babione, enable maintainers 15 years down the line "to pull out the tool, open the book and know exactly how that tool was used. 

"We have learnt from previous programmes that, when we move the tool or production facilities from place to place, then some of that knowledge is lost. We're capturing the knowíledge of our workforce in these smartbooks." 

According to Babione, the company is on schedule to deliver the final Raptor in February 2012. "We haven't missed a delivery in more than four-and-a-half years and we don't plan on missing any of the [remaining deliveries]," he said. 

With the F-22 production run nearing its end, Lockheed Martin is in the process of diverting resources to its other fifth-generation fighter line: the JSF. 

F-35 flight-testing

The F-35 programme is unique in that its system design and development phase is set to run concurrently with production. As such, the flight-test programme recently received its 11th testbed aircraft, while on the manufacturing side the company is now ramping up the production rate and building up the supply chain to achieve the economies of scale that are so critical to achieving the programme's promised long-term savings. 

The 11 flight test aircraft comprise four F-35A conventional take-off and landing (CTOL) aircraft, five F-35B short take-off and vertical landing (STOVL) aircraft and two F-35C carrier variant (CV) aircraft (with a third CV aircraft set to join the programme in June). 

Although the flight-test phase has run into a number of difficulties - the most recent when the fleet was temporarily grounded following an in-flight electric failure on the AF-4 (CTOL) test aircraft - the programme is ahead of schedule across the three variants for the first quarter of 2011, with 199 test flights flown versus a planned 142 flights. With the flight tests now largely proceeding to plan, the company is busy ramping up production capacity to the point whereby it expects to be able to roll out 200 new aircraft a year (compared to the current 51 and 11 per annum for the Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault Rafale respectively). 

"This high [production] rate gives us economies of scale; it's designed to be an affordable fifth-generation fighter to recapitalise international and US fleets," Dave Scott, Director of F-35 International Customer Engagement, told . In addition to economies of scale, the company has sought to increase the aircraft's affordability through the use of common parts and production techniques. 

All three JSF variants feature 100 per cent common avionics and will be fitted with the same Pratt & Whitney F135 engine (an alternative General Electric/Rolls-Royce F136 engine is also under development but its future remains uncertain). There is also a high degree of commonality within the systems and structures across the different versions. All three variants will also be built on the same Fort Worth production line to keep costs to a minimum. 

Lockheed Martin sees its global supply chain and manufacturing base as a further cap on costs. "We have best-of-class suppliers throughout the world who are delivering the components for the aircraft - BAE, for example, is building all of the aft fuselages. 

"This provides us with a fifth-generation fighter ... with the global co-operation that comes with the programme, linking together the governments and the air forces with the industrial communities," Scott told . 

As the programme stands, the US is set to receive 2,443 aircraft (1,763 F-35As for the USAF, 260 F-35Cs for the US Navy and 340 F-35Bs and 80 F-35Cs for the US Marine Corps). The UK (a Level 1 partner) has earmarked 138 F-35Cs for the Royal Air Force and Royal Navy (the actual quantity will be decided in the next Strategic Defence and Security Review in 2015); the Netherlands (a Level 2 partner) will get up to 85 F-35A aircraft; Italy (a Level 2 partner) is set to get 69 F-35A and 62 F-35B aircraft (the Italians will have the only other FAL site outside Fort Worth); Denmark will get 30 F-35As; Norway 48 to 56 F-35As; Turkey 100 F-35As; Australia 100 F-35As; and Canada 65 F-35As or F-35Cs. 

With eight international partners committed to buying the aircraft, Lockheed Martin has identified a number of potential Foreign Military Sales (FMS) customers, although any sale would have to be negotiated on a government-to-government basis. 

These include Israel, which has signed a letter of offer and acceptance with the US for about 20 aircraft; Singapore, which has been involved in the programme since 2004, funding studies, doing analysis work and examining when and how many aircraft they might buy (like Israel, the country is a Security Co-operations Participant); Japan, which is preparing for a request for proposals to replace some of its earlier model F-4s and F-15s; South Korea, which is examining F-35 and other aircraft for a competition that will likely occur in 2012; Greece, which has received briefings from the US government and has expressed an interest; and Spain, which has funded studies and had its navy look at the compatibility of the F-35B with their aircraft carriers. Finland and Belgium have also asked for, and received, information on the programme. 

Besides these, Scott said that any country currently operating the F-16 or F/A-18 will be a potential customer for the F-35 over the next 10 to 15 years.


Beyond the US

While the US is undoubtedly the market leader in the development of the fifth-generation combat aircraft, there are a number of other projects throughout the world that show countries such as Russia, India, China, South Korea and Japan are all working hard to develop their own indigenous platforms in the form of the PAK-FA; FGFA and AMCA; J-20; KFX; and ATD-X respectively. 

Of these, only the Russian PAK-FA and the Chinese J-20 have flown so far, the latter of which having made its maiden flight in January this year. The remaining platforms (with the exception of the FGFA, which is derived from the PAK-FA) are all design concepts at this stage and it is not yet clear if development will go ahead. 

Even so, the prospect that non-allied nations might soon gain parity with its fighter force has caused the US to look beyond fifth-generation aircraft and to the as-yet-undefined sixth generation. 

To this end, the USAF issued a capability request for information (CRfI) towards the end of last year in which it set out its key requirements for an F-22 replacement. This document called for the development of a Next Generation Tactical Aircraft capable of operating in an anti-access/area-denial environment in the 2030-50 timeframe. 

To date, only one major defence contractor, Boeing, has admitted publicly to developing such a concept in the form of its F/A-XX. As a long-term replacement for the US Navy's F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, the F/A-XX would be a tailless, two-seat, multirole platform that could be flown in either a manned or unmanned configuration. 

However, as with all such programmes, sixth-generation fighter development depends as much on funding as it does in developing the technology. When Secretary of the [US] Air Force Michael Donley was asked what it would take to kick-start such a programme, his answer was short and to the point: "More money!" 

Boeing has gone beyond fifth-generation aircraft with its proposed F/A-XX sixth-generation combat aircraft. With governmental cutbacks set to take effect, it is unclear if the funding will be in place to develop such a concept.


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## Windjammer

Pfpilot said:


> If you dont me asking me asking, how come he was denied access to Shahbaz airbase? Does it have anything to do with the Americans? Many countries now have block 52s and there isnt much remaining secretive about them.


 
I guess it had to do with the Americans, since they probably didn't wanted to be seen at a PAF facility, 
Remember the US Embassy was adamant that there were no American personal at PNS Mehran, yet it transpired that some half a dozen were rescued by our security services.

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## Silk

Windjammer said:


> I guess it had to do with the Americans, since they probably didn't wanted to be seen at a PAF facility,
> Remember the US Embassy was adamant that there were no American personal at PNS Mehran, yet it transpired that some half a dozen were rescued by our security services.


 
I guess they indeed even do not trust non Pakistani to be in or around Pakistani bases. I seriously question the value of these block52's.


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## Donatello

Silk said:


> I guess they indeed even do not trust non Pakistani to be in or around Pakistani bases. I seriously question the value of these block52's.


 
Their concern is pretty stupid and lame.

Considering that most of the Aircraft based at Sargodha would be undergoing upgradation in form of MLUs, they would have similar Radar/Avionics etc in them........so are they gonna put a ban on Sargodha as well?

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## DANGER-ZONE

MastanKhan said:


> Sir,,
> 
> You still don't get it----do you now. Friends are difficult to come by.


 
Copy right issue is right, ok i agree. 
but as u said *"Friends are difficult to come by"*. As i see, he seems to very much interested in PAf specially in JF-17. on the other hand, i have never seen such detailed articles on JFT in any Mag... it seems very fishy to me.
i think he is being paid more then his job's salary because like how AFM / AW covering JF-17, it is full fledge world wide marketing. THOUGH if he is paid , that's pretty good move.


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## Silk

AFM is not technical but if Alan reads this he knows who to ask...


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## MastanKhan

danger-zone said:


> Copy right issue is right, ok i agree.
> but as u said *"Friends are difficult to come by"*. As i see, he seems to very much interested in PAf specially in JF-17. on the other hand, i have never seen such detailed articles on JFT in any Mag... it seems very fishy to me.
> i think he is being paid more then his job's salary because like how AFM / AW covering JF-17, it is full fledge world wide marketing. THOUGH if he is paid , that's pretty good move.


 
Hi,

He writes what the PAF has authorized him to write----. That is the condition of their mutual co-operation---couldn't be otherwise.


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## humza_313

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> He writes what the PAF has authorized him to write----. That is the condition of their mutual co-operation---couldn't be otherwise.



i think that the PAF should still think twice before giving someone access. especially a foreigner.. this is my personal opinion,, maybe iam wrong. access to the bases is OK.. but access to sensitive PAF records should not be given to a foreigner no matter how close he is to you.


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## humza_313

i really admire his work though... i have been saving money to buy PAF - A NEW DAWN.. as it is a good compilation of the PAF's 10 year timeline.


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## epinephrine

its always gud to see neutral analysts writing abt air force.these things improve the image of the air force specially when any analysis is based upon facts n secondly it improves the general morale of the force.i read the book of jhon fricker "the battle for pakistan" which is abt the air war of 65.indians were really pissed off at him coz he gave the facts n figures which were close to reality in quite detail.


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## SQ8

Silk said:


> AFM is not technical but if Alan reads this he knows who to ask...


 
How is it not technical?? 
Or are you referring to the general layman's explanations they use for electronic equipment??
Id say most articles in AFM oscillate between fairly technical and easy reading.


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## Qasibr

Different point-of-views here I guess. 

On the one hand, most people here do not have a monthly subscription of AFM. Wouldn't even be able to buy it off the web if they wanted. So from their perspective, posting portions of the mag with JFT news would do no harm, it would be unlikely to incur any real loss-of-sales, and the few people who already get subscriptions would continue to get them anyway - the magazine has many many other articles that people buy it for, not just the one JFT article which got posted here. And the people who have subscriptions and do get the magazine every month would be likely to prefer to have the physical, tangible magazine in their hands, rather than skimming through scanned jpg files.

And on the other hand, the few people who do get the magazine feel that other people having access to it, even if only one article of it, online for free - when they had to pay for the magazine is unfair. They feel that posting it online for everyone to read *spoils* it for them - if they're concerned about *spoilers*(that is - finding the contents of the article out before they got their physical, tangible magazine in their hands.. like movies, finding the ending out first "spoils" the movie for some people), they could abstain from reading the posted article. 

Whichever camp one feels is right, seems to have alot to do with whether one has a subscription or not - the very people who *do* have subscriptions would feel differently if we were discussing something they wanted to read but didn't have access to(couldn't buy even if they wanted to), and it's likely that they would also agree that despite software companies, music labels and the like trying to equate software piracy to physical theft - it isn't theft if the people who got the stuff weren't going to, or able to, buy the product anyway. It doesn't effect the amount of $ the manufacturer makes.







Some would argue that the image above is an over-simplification, and that making a copy of something takes away a potential sale from the magazine. But logically, for a magazine published in Britain and targetted at and priced for the 1st world audience, 3rd world piracy does not have a significant impact. It's publishing information about the JFT because the aircraft surprised alot of people in the western world after the Farnborrough airshow, and there is alot of interest about the standard of Chinese aeronautics industry and it's capabilities.

I'm not looking to argue with anyone here, just wanted to add my 2c.

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## fatman17

Qasibr said:


> Different point-of-views here I guess.
> 
> On the one hand, most people here do not have a monthly subscription of AFM. Wouldn't even be able to buy it off the web if they wanted. So from their perspective, posting portions of the mag with JFT news would do no harm, it would be unlikely to incur any real loss-of-sales, and the few people who already get subscriptions would continue to get them anyway - the magazine has many many other articles that people buy it for, not just the one JFT article which got posted here. And the people who have subscriptions and do get the magazine every month would be likely to prefer to have the physical, tangible magazine in their hands, rather than skimming through scanned jpg files.
> 
> And on the other hand, the few people who do get the magazine feel that other people having access to it, even if only one article of it, online for free - when they had to pay for the magazine is unfair. They feel that posting it online for everyone to read *spoils* it for them - if they're concerned about *spoilers*(that is - finding the contents of the article out before they got their physical, tangible magazine in their hands.. like movies, finding the ending out first "spoils" the movie for some people), they could abstain from reading the posted article.
> 
> Whichever camp one feels is right, seems to have alot to do with whether one has a subscription or not - the very people who *do* have subscriptions would feel differently if we were discussing something they wanted to read but didn't have access to(couldn't buy even if they wanted to), and it's likely that they would also agree that despite software companies, music labels and the like trying to equate software piracy to physical theft - it isn't theft if the people who got the stuff weren't going to, or able to, buy the product anyway. It doesn't effect the amount of $ the manufacturer makes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some would argue that the image above is an over-simplification, and that making a copy of something takes away a potential sale from the magazine. But logically, for a magazine published in Britain and targetted at and priced for the 1st world audience, 3rd world piracy does not have a significant impact. It's publishing information about the JFT because the aircraft surprised alot of people in the western world after the Farnborrough airshow, and there is alot of interest about the standard of Chinese aeronautics industry and it's capabilities.
> 
> I'm not looking to argue with anyone here, just wanted to add my 2c.



copyright monitors do monitor such websites and if they feel it is an infringement, they do write to the webmater to refrain from such activity, otherwise......


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## fatman17

*August 2011* 

NEWS

Headlines

United Kingdom

Europe

North America

Latin America

Middle East

Russia

Africa

Asia Pacific

Australasia and Contracts


F-35: &#8220;Unacceptable and Unaffordable&#8221;
Blair Watson considers the latest rumblings in the US Senate over the troubled F-35 programme.

West Coast Hornets 
Derek Heyes reports from the west coast of Canada on Exercise Trident Fury.

Iran&#8217;s Military Day Parade
The Islamic Republic of Iran Army Aviation (IRIAA) participated in the Iran&#8217;s annual National Army day. Babak Taghvaee was there.

It&#8217;s Hard to be Humble for 50 Years!
Bob Archer looks back at half a century of Tiger Meets.

Tiger, Tiger, Tiger!
The traditional Tiger Meet opening was shouted out by Lt Col Sebastien Valette, Commander of EC 1/12 &#8216;Cambresis&#8217;, the host unit for the 2011 50th Anniversary Tiger Meet at BA103 Cambrai-Epinoy in Northern France. AFM was there to catch the first week&#8217;s action.

From Light Aviation to Airmobile Force 
Despite severe economic difficulties, Spain is busy upgrading its Army&#8217;s helicopter fleets. Martin Scharenborg and Ramon Wenink tell AFM readers about the progress being made.

*Force Report: Pakistan Navy Aviation
Turbulent times: Alan Warnes visited the Pakistan Naval Aviation base in Karachi, just weeks before the Taliban raided the facility in May.*

Operation Ignition: Canadian Hornets Patrol Iceland&#8217;s Skies
Glenn Sands headed north to Keflavik International Airport in Iceland where &#8211; despite hurricane-force winds &#8211; he observed Canada&#8217;s 409 Squadron&#8217;s first deployment to the nation as part of NATO&#8217;s air policing commitment.

New Avengers
Following the withdrawal from service of the Jetstream T2 at RNAS Culdrose, the Royal Navy was eagerly awaiting its new training platform, the Beechcraft King Air 350ER Avenger. AFM&#8217;s Jerry Gunner was at Bournemouth Hurn International Airport when the four new aircraft were handed over.

UKMFTS emerges at Barkston Heath
The second package of the United Kingdom Military Flying Training System started on June 20 when six Royal Navy students arrived at 703 NAS at Lincolnshire&#8217;s RAF Barkston Heath for their Rear Crew Stage 1 (RN Observer) training, reports Derek Bower.

Attrition
AFM&#8217;s Dave Allport reports on the world&#8217;s most recent military aviation accidents.

Airshows &#8211; Postcards from Taiwan, Singapore, Turkey and France.

Tailpiece &#8211; Girls just wanna have fun!
Bob Franklin talked to Flt Lt Juliette &#8216;Jules&#8217; Fleming, the RAF&#8217;s first female solo jet display pilot.


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## MastanKhan

humza_313 said:


> i think that the PAF should still think twice before giving someone access. especially a foreigner.. this is my personal opinion,, maybe iam wrong. access to the bases is OK.. but access to sensitive PAF records should not be given to a foreigner no matter how close he is to you.


 
Hi,

What about the leaks the children of millitary personal have made on the web-site---at least Alan Warnes is printing vetted material.


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## Riz




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## fatman17

Silk said:


> I guess they indeed even do not trust non Pakistani to be in or around Pakistani bases. I seriously question the value of these block52's.



value is the deterrent factor! - just like the strategic assets!


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## fatman17

danger-zone said:


> Copy right issue is right, ok i agree.
> but as u said *"Friends are difficult to come by"*. As i see, he seems to very much interested in PAf specially in JF-17. on the other hand, i have never seen such detailed articles on JFT in any Mag... it seems very fishy to me.
> i think he is being paid more then his job's salary because like how AFM / AW covering JF-17, it is full fledge world wide marketing. THOUGH if he is paid , that's pretty good move.



JFT has been covered in Aviation Week a leading defence mag, on DID. i've posted JFT details in the JFT segment. its just not AFM alone. the point is that JFT is a leading milestone in co-operation between a economic super-power and a 3rd world country, which if 'marketed' properly has the potential to sell up to 1,500 a/c or more. at 30m/pop thats a lot of 'green backs'.

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## Areesh

According to one member on another forum Alan Warne article on Pak Nay aviation containes the following information.




> Z-9 choppers will be data linked with F-22s and JF-17s armed with *C803 missiles*
> Confirmed we now have 7 P-3Cs left after PNS Mehran incident
> Hawker jet is indeed EW/Multimission dedicated
> 2 Atlantics stilll operation in same squadron as Hawker for EW/Elint duties
> 6 F-27s still in service. 3 for MR and 3 for Transport/utility. PN looking at CN-235 or ATR-72 as replacements
> Alouttes still being used for training/SAR, being phased out

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## fatman17

Areesh said:


> According to one member on another forum Alan Warne article on Pak Nay aviation containes the following information.



Z-9 choppers will be data linked with F-22s and JF-17s armed with C803 missiles
Confirmed we now have 7 P-3Cs left after PNS Mehran incident
Hawker jet is indeed EW/Multimission dedicated
2 Atlantics stilll operation in same squadron as Hawker for EW/Elint duties
6 F-27s still in service. 3 for MR and 3 for Transport/utility. PN looking at CN-235 or ATR-72 as replacements
Alouttes still being used for training/SAR, being phased out

sounds ok - hope PN can find the funds for its replacement plans


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## Areesh

One important thing is that Naval JFt would have C-803 not C-802a missiles. Please comment on this.


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## fatman17

Areesh said:


> One important thing is that Naval JFt would have C-803 not C-802a missiles. Please comment on this.



803 may be a improved version of the 802. the other difference could be the size of the asm.


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## fatman17

*C-802/YJ-82*

"China&#8217;s Yingji-82 or YJ-82 (export name C-802) was first unveiled in 1989 by the China Haiying Electro-Mechanical Technology Academy. Due to the Yingji-82 missile&#8217;s small radar reflectivity, low attack flight path (only five to seven metres above the sea surface) and strong anti-jamming capability of its guidance equipment, target ships have a very
small chance of intercepting the missile. The Yingji-82 can be launched from airplanes, surface ships, submarines and land-based vehicles, and has been considered&#8212;along with the US Harpoon missile&#8212;as among the best
anti-ship missiles of its generation."

ADJ


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## Areesh

According to Usman S of another forum.



> Got my copy of AFM August issue yesterday. Some Pakistan related tidbits:
> 
>  According to CATIC Chairman Mr. Ma Zing a new PAC Kamra/CATIC joint marketing team is currently being set up. This team includes PAF pilots who have flown the F-16, Mirages and F-7, as well as JF-17.
>  CATIC is also marketing the JF-17 to both the PLAAF and PLAN.
>  There is a small positive piece on Pakistans participation in the TuAFs 100th Anniversary under the heading Pak AF Lights Up Izmir.
>  Pakistan has acquired two Mi-14PG (fire-fighting variant) from Ukraine. There is a picture in the mag as well showing one in Pakistani colors.
>  8 page article on Pakistan Navy.
>  JF-17 will be soon operational with the C-802 AShM.

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## VCheng

Further:

There is a special Force Report on Pakistan Navy Aviation and a story on the PNS Mehran attack.

Afghanistan has acquired five ex-PA Mi-17s.

Two more Indian C-130J-30s delivered.

A short story titled "Pak AF lights up Izmir".

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## fatman17

another news was about ...
TAI Ramps up F-16 Work
...TAI is also working on the first three PAF F-16 Block 15's(two As and oneB) of 41 that were contracted for in mid 2009, at a cost of US$70m for a Falcon Up/Falcon Star structural and avionics upgrade.....4 PAF F-16 Block 15's are undergoing a similar upgrade in the US......


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## Dr. Strangelove

fatman17 said:


> 803 may be a improved version of the 802. the other difference could be the size of the asm.


 
*c802*
Weight	715 kg
Length	6.392 m
Diameter	36 cm
Operational
range 180 km (C-802A); 120 km (C-802
Flight altitude	3-5 m (attacking); 5-7 m (cruising)[1]
Speed	Mach 1.6 (attacking), Mach 0.9[1] (cruising)
Guidance
system	Inertial and terminal active radar
*c803*
Weight	~850-1200 kg
Length	~6-7 m
Diameter	0.36 m
Operational
range	>255 km (air-launched)
200 km (surface-launched)
Flight altitude	5 to 50 meters cruising
Speed	Subsonic - Mach 2
Guidance
system	Infra-Red and MMW radar

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## Battle Axe

fatman17 said:


> value is the deterrent factor! - just like the strategic assets!


 

Bang on target. Add to it the unavailability of such an advanced fighter else where & then adjustment of aid, in there...


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## PersianPride

Go Pakistan


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## unicorn

Winner of the 2011 Laureate Award for IT/Electronics- The Automatic Ground Collision Avoidance System (Auto GCAS), led by program managers Edward Griffin of Lockheed Martin Aeronautics and Donald Swilhart of the U.S. Air Force Research Laboratory. The system predicts an impending ground collision and performs and automatic avoidance maneuver to provide protection to pilots that have become disoriented or are experiencing loss of consciousness. The advent of GCAS capability represents one of the greatest improvements in military aviation safety and the most important flight control technology transition since fly-by-wire. It is projected to save 247 lives and provide $12.7 billion in savings to the Air Force during the next 25 years

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## Dark Eagle

What about Z-10?? ......


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## fatman17

from AFM October.....

Anatolian Eagle 2011-02

Since 2001, there have been 29 Anatolian Eagle excercises, with attendence from Belgium, Spain, France, Germany, NATO, the Netherlands, Israel, Italy, Jordan, Pakistan, UAE, UK and the USA.
Up to four Anatolian Eagle excercises can be held each year and at least one of these will be solely for the TUAF (Turkish Air Force). Only two excercises were planned for this year with the first exclusively for Turkish Forces. Anatolian Eagle 2011-02 welcomed foreign forces to Konya between June 12 and 24 --- Pakistan and UAE were expected to participate but they cancelled at the last moment....

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## PiyaraPakistan

12-Oct 2011 , Wednesday Evening, Air Violation of Pakistani Border by Nato Aircrafts. Stays 15 minut in Pakistani teritory.


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## Don Jaguar

PiyaraPakistan said:


> 12-Oct 2011 , Wednesday Evening, Air Violation of Pakistani Border by Nato Aircrafts. Stays 15 minut in Pakistani teritory.



Your source?


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## PiyaraPakistan

Urdu News paper - NawaiWaqt 13-10-2011


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## fatman17

AFM December-2011...
Pakistan Navy Alouette III visits USS George Bush
A PN Alouette III helicopter made a rare landing abord the aircraft carrier USS George HW Bush (CVN 77) on Sept,28 in the arabian sea. Personnel assigned to the PN destroyer PNS Shahjehan (DDG 186) visited the Bush for a co-ordinated professional exchange while the two ships were operating in the vicinity of one another in the arabian sea.
Alouette III in PN service
4 delivered in 1972
2 delivered in 1982
4 delivered in 1995
2 delivered in 2008
7 remain in service with 333 squadron at PNS Mehran.


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## Najam Khan

Sir, Pakistan bought some Alouette examples from Switzerland last year, were they for PA?


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## fatman17

NAjAM Khan said:


> Sir, Pakistan bought some Alouette examples from Switzerland last year, were they for PA?



PAF for SAR!!!

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## s_shahnawaz

Thanx for the info


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## s_shahnawaz

Thank you for great info.


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## unicorn

> The spy plane uses the same stealth technology as the drone used to monitor the compound during the raid that killed Usama bin Laden, U.S. military sources told Fox News on Monday.


Drone Lost In Iran Was Joint CIA-Military Reconnaissance Plane | Fox News

No one in Pakistan has ever confirm or deny this report.Every one is silent about this one.Who knows maybe these drones are flying on our key nuclear installations for a very long time as well and we don't know a thing about them.

These things only leads to believe that when USA says that they have contingency plans about scenarios which they regularly speak in public, we have no choice but to believe that they are right about what they are saying.


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## Sapper

unicorn said:


> Drone Lost In Iran Was Joint CIA-Military Reconnaissance Plane | Fox News
> 
> No one in Pakistan has ever confirm or deny this report.Every one is silent about this one.Who knows maybe these drones are flying on our key nuclear installations for a very long time as well and we don't know a thing about them.
> 
> These things only leads to believe that when USA says that they have contingency plans about scenarios which they regularly speak in public, we have no choice but to believe that they are right about what they are saying.



Dear,

Drones are non-stealth aircrafts, and are easily picked up on radar. Our nuclear facilities are extremely well covered as far as radar coverage is concerned. Both low-level and high-level radars are deployed close to nuclear installations to keep track of airspace.

As for the so called stealth-drone, the RQ-170 Sentinel is *Non Stealth*, repeat non-stealth, but is still low-observable by not having a propeller and vertical tail to reduce radar signature. Just removing tail doesnot make a plane stealth. 

- It needs to be painted with RAM
- Internal cavities need to be designed to reduce electronic-equipments' signature to seap into surrounding airspace
- Engine exhaust needs to be shielded, with fuel additives to reduce IR footprint (sometimes).
- Engine nozzles and control surfaces are redesigned to speacial shaped contours.

The design of all of this is extremely complicated and considered top secret, and you cannot have that on an unmanned vehicle what can fall out of the sky and into enemy hands for many many reasons, simplest of which is active signal interference at control link of satelite (which probably happened in Iran's case).

It is suggested that it is stealthy in cetain aspects, but not completely stealth owing to the factor of not wanting to put into sensitive stealth technology into an unmanned vehicle. Most of the attributes like engine, wing design, no tail etc point to efforts to allow it to fly as high as possible with lowest possible drag to increase range.

Regards,
Sapper

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## fatman17

unicorn said:


> Drone Lost In Iran Was Joint CIA-Military Reconnaissance Plane | Fox News
> 
> No one in Pakistan has ever confirm or deny this report.Every one is silent about this one.Who knows maybe these drones are flying on our key nuclear installations for a very long time as well and we don't know a thing about them.
> 
> These things only leads to believe that when USA says that they have contingency plans about scenarios which they regularly speak in public, we have no choice but to believe that they are right about what they are saying.



everyone knows where are key nuke facilities are located - 'just google baby' - u dont need drones - the key question is do they know where are missile components are located? - that is the million $ question - we have between 90-110 ready to go weapons!


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## unicorn

fatman17 said:


> everyone knows where are key nuke facilities are located - 'just google baby' - u dont need drones - the key question is do they know where are missile components are located? - that is the million $ question - we have between 90-110 ready to go weapons!



US Director of National Intelligence Dennis Blair told the house Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence February 3 2010, that from what we see of...measures that they take, Pakistan is keeping it's nuclear weapon secure. (Page 4)
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:m-HagfV8yNIJ:www.fas.org/sgp/crs/nuke/RL34248.pdf+pentagon+has+plans+to+secure+pak+nukes&hl=en&gl=pk&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgnYTECzFqY4JFbJ9MWSqwNggFfz9HTLQ1Q3XxlnVZyYYRXGbwuZolZcMm80wHrfgIyO7aqqRNnLG7HCh6lowOBKjiPC3J3tg0mpNR5LMO6YwZ1Ih3_xFCIm64BWYK-JUtWEs6G&sig=AHIEtbQJBnBe1GKbfMJ--x41XEoCqOSKmw

Sir the question is not about location. The question here is that whether Pakistan and it's authorities know to what extent USA is monitoring it. If the answer to that question in *NO* than surely there are all kinds of reason to believe if some one says that there is a contingency plan for our nukes.The fact that Pakistan air force cannot able to intercept RQ 170 Sentinel during all those days only strengthens these sorts of beliefs.


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## epinephrine

unicorn.
do u have any proof that this drone flew over pakistani facilities in past?why r u so sure abt it?


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## FunkyPeace12

nice info thanks for update! will look towards next months


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## Aamir Hussain

unicorn said:


> US Director of National Intelligence Dennis Blair told the house Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence February 3 2010, that from what we see of...measures that they take, Pakistan is keeping it's nuclear weapon secure. (Page 4)
> https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:m-HagfV8yNIJ:www.fas.org/sgp/crs/nuke/RL34248.pdf+pentagon+has+plans+to+secure+pak+nukes&hl=en&gl=pk&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgnYTECzFqY4JFbJ9MWSqwNggFfz9HTLQ1Q3XxlnVZyYYRXGbwuZolZcMm80wHrfgIyO7aqqRNnLG7HCh6lowOBKjiPC3J3tg0mpNR5LMO6YwZ1Ih3_xFCIm64BWYK-JUtWEs6G&sig=AHIEtbQJBnBe1GKbfMJ--x41XEoCqOSKmw
> 
> Sir the question is not about location. The question here is that whether Pakistan and it's authorities know to what extent USA is monitoring it. If the answer to that question in *NO* than surely there are all kinds of reason to believe if some one says that there is a contingency plan for our nukes.The fact that Pakistan air force cannot able to intercept RQ 170 Sentinel during all those days only strengthens these sorts of beliefs.



I am sure SPD would presume the wors tand then plan accordingly. 

On another note, the time to take out our nuks have come and gone -- now no one can safely take out all our nukes, engineers, scientists, blue prints, etc. The cost of even missing one is too high. One can not stop the other side from not planning, both India amd US can make plans and run scenarios but the fact remains that on ground, it is now next to impossible.

It is convenient for some quarters to keep the scare there to continue to fund the sustanance and additional funding. Our Nuclear "Asasay" are slowly becoming another Kashmir like issue.

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## Dazzler

They have planned hard to take our nuke "eggs" but since they are not sure themselves of the exact location, their fear of a serious retaliation from Pak Armed forces has pushed them at bay. If they had a slightest of hint of the primary location, they would have done it many years ago. Agreed with AH, the consequences of leaving even a single "egg" is nothing short of a nightmare as an angry Pakistan is something no one in the modern world would want.

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## SBD-3

Aamir Hussain said:


> I am sure SPD would presume the wors tand then plan accordingly.
> 
> On another note, the time to take out our nuks have come and gone -- now no one can safely take out all our nukes, engineers, scientists, blue prints, etc. The cost of even missing one is too high. One can not stop the other side from not planning, both India amd US can make plans and run scenarios but the fact remains that on ground, it is now next to impossible.
> 
> It is convenient for some quarters to keep the scare there to continue to fund the sustanance and additional funding. Our Nuclear "Asasay" are slowly becoming another Kashmir like issue.


Just to add, I was reading somewhere that even to date Israelis still practice regularly for such a scenario, some people argue that its against Iran but who knows.


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## SBD-3

nabil_05 said:


> They have planned hard to take our nuke "eggs" but since they are not sure themselves of the exact location, their fear of a serious retaliation from Pak Armed forces has pushed them at bay. If they had a slightest of hint of the primary location, they would have done it many years ago. Agreed with AH, the consequences of leaving even a single "egg" is nothing short of a nightmare as an angry Pakistan is something no one in the modern world would want.


It would not be a filmi scenario of sunjay dutt entering kahuta and taking away the nuclear device  the most logical thing for any such course of action would be neutralization of such facilities with hope that stockpile is contained within them. However, there is a big but, doing this would be a open declaration of war and there will be retaliation from Pakistan with possible nuke stockpile....Had this not been the case and Pakistan's program would have been in initial stages, Americans would have certainly done so since they enjoy conventional supremacy vis-a-vis Pakistan.


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## Aamir Hussain

hasnain0099 said:


> Just to add, I was reading somewhere that even to date Israelis still practice regularly for such a scenario, some people argue that its against Iran but who knows.



We can not stop people from practicing for their dreams. But that date has come and gone. Everyone knows it fully well. The issue is just not the nukes but also the plans for building one, the scientists and technicians - can they get rid of all of these things? No one can and, both US an Israel along with India knows this very well.

It us who degrade our status by keep on discussing this endlessly out in the open. These things, of this magnitude are not discussed in eveningers or reported on by stringers.

This is serious stuff and we send jitters up every one's spine when we disucss these things as if it was some candy we are talking about.

The greater danger is not from the outside but from the inside. It is not with our nukes but with our state of economy, governance, and vision. May be Kidwai Sahib should now be allowed to focus on reinventing the government;-)

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## Dr. Strangelove

keep it up


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## fatman17

*The fact that Pakistan air force cannot able to intercept RQ 170 Sentinel during all those days only strengthens these sorts of beliefs.* 

says who and when did this happen?


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## SQ8

fatman17 said:


> *The fact that Pakistan air force cannot able to intercept RQ 170 Sentinel during all those days only strengthens these sorts of beliefs.*
> 
> says who and when did this happen?



Say the inspirations for most posts by our neighbors and other detractors.

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## Mazharrafiq

nice information


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## fatman17

*PAKISTAN AIR FORCE*


Type.............................. Active..... Ordered

Combat aircraft
F-7................................. 143
F-16A/C............................ 36
JF-17 ................................29.......... 70
Mirage IIIEL/EP/OF/RP.......... 80
Mirage 5EF/F/PA.................. 85

Special mission
Falcon 20 (EW).................... 2
Saab 2000 (AEW)................. 4
ZDK-03 (AEW)..................... 4

Tanker
Il-78.................................. 3

Transport
C-130B/E/L-100................... 16
CN-235................................ 3

Combat helicopter
AB205.................................. 5
IAR316................................. 4
Mi-35.................................. 10

Training aircraft/helicopters
F-16B/D............................... 27
FT-5.................................... 25
FT-6..................................... 9
FT-7..................................... 7
K-8..................................... 39
Mirage IIIBE/BL/D/DP.............. 19
Mirage 5DPA........................... 2
SA316.................................. 10
Saab 2000.............................. 1
T-37.................................... 18

PAKISTAN ARMY
Type.................................... Active.............. Ordered

Combat helicopter
AH-1F................................... 35
AS350.................................... 3
AS550................................... 20
Bell 206................................... 9
Bell 412.................................. 24........... 2+40*
Mi-8/17/172............................. 93
SA316..................................... 16
SA330..................................... 31

Training aircraft/helicopters
Bell 206..................................... 9

PAKISTAN NAVY
Type....................................... Active................. Ordered

Special mission
ATL-1 (MPA)............................. 1
F27 (MPA)................................ 6
P-3C (MPA)............................... 3

Transport
F27......................................... 1

Combat helicopter
SA316...................................... 5
Sea King 45............................... 6 
Z-9.......................................... 4................ 2


this is the latest position by Flight International on the PAF. IMHO, there are many 'errors' in this position - note the reporting of 10 Mi-35's in PAF inventory?

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## SQ8

FM.. why dont we edit this and put in the right numbers?


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## DANGER-ZONE

Sir,



> Special mission
> Falcon 20 (EW).................... 2
> *Saab 2000 (AEW)................. 4*
> *ZDK-03 (AEW)..................... 4*



i guess we have 3 Erieye and 2 Karakuram Eagle. 



> Combat helicopter
> AB205.................................. 5
> IAR316................................. 4
> *Mi-35*.................................. 10


Whats this ??? 



> Special mission
> ATL-1 (MPA)............................. 1
> F27 (MPA)................................ 6
> *P-3C (MPA)............................... 3*



i ve seen Two bird only flying at Faisla BAse Karachi, No third. and we have only one Atlantiq left which is quite embarrassing.


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## maverick1977

Blackpearl said:


> there are no Hind type helicopter ever seen flown by Army. But, yes i hav seen pictures on Pakaviation.com, of Hinds in PAF markings.



Here is the thrillinng news. Pakistan Army aviation flew out 2 Mi 24 hinds from afghanistan during the end of soviet war. I know it first hand as my uncle who was the CO of cobra helis in Multan was involved in this operation. what happend to those hinds, i am not sure!!!

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## fatman17

maverick1977 said:


> Here is the thrillinng news. Pakistan Army aviation flew out 2 Mi 24 hinds from afghanistan during the end of soviet war. I know it first hand as my uncle who was the CO of cobra helis in Multan was involved in this operation. what happend to those hinds, i am not sure!!!



parked at samugli AB - Quetta for lack of spares!


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## fatman17

Santro said:


> FM.. why dont we edit this and put in the right numbers?



wilco !!! it will take a few minutes though!


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## Windjammer

Mirage IIIEL/EP/OF/RP.......... 80
Mirage 5EF/F/PA.................. 85

Not meaning to be a nit pick but isn't the Mirage designation as..... IIIEP/DP/RP/RO......5PA/PA2/PA3. ??


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## ziaulislam

danger-zone said:


> Sir,
> 
> 
> 
> i guess we have 3 Erieye and 2 Karakuram Eagle.
> 
> 
> Whats this ???
> 
> 
> 
> i ve seen Two bird only flying at Faisla BAse Karachi, No third. and we have only one Atlantiq left which is quite embarrassing.



they are four saab 2000 but 3 of them are erieye...
also we have dassualt falcon 20 two in number..
P3c are 3 in umber not 2


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## Donatello

What happened to the remaining P3c?

Like didn't we have 7 of them?


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## SQ8

fatman17 said:


> parked at samugli AB - Quetta for lack of spares!



Would it not be prudent now to just ship them to the PAF mueseum rather than let them sit there in the sun withering away.

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## unicorn

fatman17 said:


> *The fact that Pakistan air force cannot able to intercept RQ 170 Sentinel during all those days only strengthens these sorts of beliefs.*
> 
> says who and when did this happen?





> Iran appears to be in possession of one of America&#8217;s most sophisticated weapons, a super-secret spy plane whose stealth technology is the same as the drone used to monitor the compound during the raid that killed Usama bin Laden, U.S. military sources told Fox News on Monday.



Drone Lost In Iran Was Joint CIA-Military Reconnaissance Plane | Fox News

Tsk Tsk....

I guess people like to turn their back on the hard questions.


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## fatman17

penumbra said:


> What happened to the remaining P3c?
> 
> Like didn't we have 7 of them?



5 are under delivery by 2013

---------- Post added at 06:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:31 PM ----------




Windjammer said:


> Mirage IIIEL/EP/OF/RP.......... 80
> Mirage 5EF/F/PA.................. 85
> 
> Not meaning to be a nit pick but isn't the Mirage designation as..... IIIEP/DP/RP/RO......5PA/PA2/PA3. ??



true but the australian, libyan, lebanese designations remain for clarity's sake


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## ziaulislam

penumbra said:


> What happened to the remaining P3c?
> 
> Like didn't we have 7 of them?


2 were destroyed..rest will be coming from USA hopefully?


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## fatman17

AFM Jan-2012

JF-17 Thunder. One of the Stars of Dubai

3 new JF-17 Thunders, two K-8Ps, a pair of Super Mushshaks and a Saab Erieye 2000 participated in the Dubai air show.

to date 38 of the 42 Block 1's have been assembled at PAC Kamra, with the last example expected to be delivered in April-2012 by which time, 26 Sqdn at Peshawar and 16 Sqdn at Minhas will have been joined by a third operational unit.

manufacture of a second batch of 50 Block 2 standard aircraft will commence in mid-2012. their enhancements over the Block 1s will include smarter avionics, better weapons, air-to-air refuelling, enhanced data-link and development of a dual-seat version. 

there are at least five countries showing serious interest. one of these is Egypt and the EAF CAS Maj-Gen Abdul Aziz was seen being shown around the aircraft's cockpit display in the static park. he said "we are very interested and even sent a pilot ti China, to train on the simulator".


Next Month...

Postcard from Dubai
Alan Warnes presents a photo-feature of the stars of the Dubai Airshow, held over November 13 to 17.

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## killerx

fatman17 said:


> AFM Jan-2012
> 
> JF-17 Thunder. One of the Stars of Dubai
> 
> 3 new JF-17 Thunders, two K-8Ps, a pair of Super Mushshaks and a Saab Erieye 2000 participated in the Dubai air show.
> 
> to date 38 of the 42 Block 1's have been assembled at PAC Kamra, with the last example expected to be delivered in April-2012 by which time, 26 Sqdn at Peshawar and 16 Sqdn at Minhas will have been joined by a third operational unit.
> 
> manufacture of a second batch of 50 Block 2 standard aircraft will commence in mid-2012. their enhancements over the Block 1s will include smarter avionics, better weapons, air-to-air refuelling, enhanced data-link and development of a dual-seat version.
> 
> there are at least five countries showing serious interest. one of these is Egypt and the EAF CAS Maj-Gen Abdul Aziz was seen being shown around the aircraft's cockpit display in the static park. he said "we are very interested and even sent a pilot ti China, to train on the simulator".
> 
> 
> Next Month...
> 
> Postcard from Dubai
> Alan Warnes presents a photo-feature of the stars of the Dubai Airshow, held over November 13 to 17.



these spec of block 2 is said by air cheif marshal right

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## fatman17

*PAF Order of Battle*

updated to 2009




No. 1 FCU Squadron 

Based at: PAF Base Mianawali 
Raised: 28th April , 1975
Tactical Role: Fighter Pilot Conversion 
Affiliation 37th Combat Training Wing - Northern Air Command
Aircraft K-8P Karakorum 
Past Aircraft FT-5, T-33


No. 2 Squadron 

Based at:	PAF Base Masroor 
Raised: June 1, 1957
Tactical Role:	Air Superiority 
Affiliation:	32nd (TAW) Wing - Southern Air Command
Aircraft: Chengdu F-7P (Chinese Mig-21) 
Past Aircraft; T-33A, RT-33A, B-57B/C

No. 3 Squadron 

Based at:	PAF Base Chaklala 
Raised: July 2, 1974
Tactical Role:	Transport Conversion School 
Affiliation: 35th (CAT) Wing - Northern Air Command
Aircraft: C-130, F-27. 
Past Aircraft:	

No. 4 Squadron

Based at:	PAF Base Masroor	
Raised: 15-Aug-59
Tactical Role:	Airborne Early Warning	
Affiliation: 32nd (TAW) Wing - Southern Air Command
Aircraft: ZDK-03 (Y-8)	
Past Aircraft: Grumman SA-16s, H-19D (SAR)

No. 5 Squadron

Based at:	PAF Base Shahbaz	
Raised: 15-Aug-47
Tactical Role:	Multi - Role 
Affiliation: 38th (TA) Wing - Central Air Command
Aircraft: LM F-16C/D Fighting Falcon	
Past Aircraft: Tempest Mk II, Hawker Fury, F-86 Sabre, Mirage IIIEP,RP

No. 6 Squadron

Based at:	PAF Base Chaklala	
Raised: 15-Aug-47
Tactical Role: Air Transport	
Affiliation: 35th (CAT) Wing - Northern Air Command
Aircraft: C-130 Hercules, CASA CN-235	
Past Aircraft: Spitfire FR-XIV,Bristol Freighters, Dakotas

No. 7 Squadron 

Based at:	PAF Base Masroor	
Raised: 1-Mar-60
Tactical Role:	OCU, Tactical Attack	
Affiliation: 32nd (TAW) Wing - Southern Air Command
Aircraft: Mirage ROSE 
Past Aircraft: Martin B-57B, B-57C,Nanchang A-5III, FT-6

No. 8 Squadron 

Based at:	PAF Base Masroor	
Raised: 1-Aug-60
Tactical Role:	Ground & Maritime Attack 
Affiliation: 32nd (TAW) Wing - Southern Air Command
Aircraft: Mirage V PA2 / PA3	
Past Aircraft: B-57


No. 9 Squadron 

Based at:	PAF Base Mushaf (Sargodha)	
Raised: January 3, 1944 (Before Partition)
Tactical Role:	Multi - Role	
Affiliation: 38th (TA) Wing Central Air Command
Aircraft: LM F-16 A/B Fighting Falcon 
Past Aircraft: Hawker Tempest 11, Hawker Fury, F-104A/B Starfighter, Mirage V



No. 10 Squadron 

Based at:	Currently Number Plated	
Raised: 15-Aug-59
Tactical Role: 
Affiliation	
Aircraft 
Past Aircraft B-57



No. 11 Squadron 

Based at:	PAF Base Mushaf (Sargodha) 
Raised: June, 1951
Tactical Role:	Multi - Role, F-16 OCU	
Affiliation: 38th (TA) Wing, Central Air Command
Aircraft: LM F-16 A/B Fighting Falcon	
Past Aircraft:	Super Marine Attacker, F-86F Sabre, Shenyang F-6


No. 12 Squadron 

Based at:	PAF Base Chaklala 
Raised: Mar-50
Tactical Role: VIP. 
Affiliation: 35th (CAT) Composite Air Transport Wing.
Aircraft: Falcon 20, Fokker F-27, Gulfstream 450,IV-SP,Citation 560 Excel	
Past Aircraft: Vickers Viscount, Halifax Bombers, Vikings, Dakotas, SA-16 Albatross, F-27, Falcon 20, Boeing 707, 737,


No. 14 Squadron 

Based at:	PAF Base Kamra - Minhas 
Raised: November, 1948
Tactical Role: Air Superioity.	
Affiliation: 33rd (TW) Wing - Northern Air Command
Aircraft: F-7PG 
Past Aircraft: Tempest, Fury, Auster, Harvard, Dakotas, F-86 Sabre, T-33, Shenyang F-6, LM F-16A/B,



No. 15 Squadron

Based at:	PAF Base Rafiqui 
Raised: 15-Jun-56
Tactical Role:	Tactical Attack, Mirage OCU	
Affiliation: 34th (TA) Wing - Northern Air Command
Aircraft: Mirage V PA	
Past Aircraft: T-33A, F-86 Sabre, Shenyang F-6, F-7P,



No. 16 Squadron

Based at:	PAF Base Peshawar	
Raised: 1957
Tactical Role: Tactical Attack	
Affiliation: 36th (TA) Wing - Northern Air Command
Aircraft: JF-17 Thunder 
Past Aircraft: F-86F Sabre, Shenyang F-6, Nanchang A-5III



No. 17 Squadron

Based at:	PAF Base Samungli	
Raised: 1-Apr-57
Tactical Role: Air Superiority	
Affiliation: 31st (AS) Wing - Southern Air Command
Aircraft: F-7PG 
Past Aircraft: F-86F Sabre, Shenyang F-6, 


No. 18 OCU Squadron 

Based at: PAF Base Mianawali	
Raised: 1-Feb-58
Tactical Role:	Operational Conversion Unit	
Affiliation: 34th (CT) Wing, Central Air Command
Aircraft: Chegdu F-7P,FT-7P 
Past Aircraft: F-86E Sabre, Mirage V PA2, F-7P,


No. 19 OCU Squadron 

Based at: PAF Base Mianawali	
Raised: February 1st, 1958
Tactical Role:	Operational Conversion Unit	
Affiliation: 34th (CT) Wing - Central Air Command
Aircraft: Chengdu F-7P, FT-7P 
Past Aircraft: F-86F Sabre, Shenyang F-6


No. 20 Squadron

Based at:	PAF Base Rafiqui	
Raised: Mar-57
Tactical Role: Air Superiority	
Affiliation: 34th (TA) Wing - Central Air Command
Aircraft: Chengdu F-7PG	
Past Aircraft:	RT-33, Mirage III RP, F-7P


No. 22 OCU Squadron 

Based at:	PAF Base Masroor 
Raised: Jun-84
Tactical Role:	Operational Conversion Unit	
Affiliation: 32nd (TAW) Wing - Southern Air Command
Aircraft: Mirage IIIDP, Mirage III, Mirage III EL	
Past Aircraft:	Mirage V PA/PA2, Mirage III DP, Mirage III EA/DA, Mirage V EF


No. 23 Squadron

Based at:	PAF Base Samungli 
Raised: Mar-61
Tactical Role: Air Superiority	
Affiliation: 31st (AS) Wing - Southern Air Command
Aircraft: Chengdu F-7PG	
Past Aircraft:	Fury, Shenyang F-6, 


No. 24 Squadron

Based at:	PAF Base Mushaf (Sargodha)	
Raised: December, 1962
Tactical Role:	Electronic Warfare (ECM/EW) 
Affiliation: 38th (TA) Wing - Central Air Command
Aircraft: Falcon 20D/F 
Past Aircraft: RB-57B, 


No. 25 Squadron

Based at:	PAF Base Kamra - Minhas	
Raised: January, 1966
Tactical Role:	Tactical Night Attack	
Affiliation: 33rd (TA) Wing - Northern Air Command
Aircraft: Mirage V DF, Mirage V EF, ROSE	
Past Aircraft: Shenyang F-6, FT-6


No. 26 Squadron

Based at:	PAF Base Peshawar	
Raised: 30-Aug-67
Tactical Role:	Tactical Attack 
Affiliation: 36th (TA) Wing - Northern Air Command
Aircraft: JF-17 Thunder	
Past Aircraft: F-86 Sabre, Shenyang F-6, Nanchang A-5III


No. 27 Squadron

Based at:	PAF Base Rafiqui	
Raised: 1-Apr-07
Tactical Role:	Tactical Night Attack 
Affiliation: 34th (TA) Wing - Central Air Command
Aircraft: Mirage V EF ROSE 
Past Aircraft:



No. 41 Squadron

Based at:	PAF Base Chaklala	
Raised: Jun-66
Tactical Role:	Light Communications	
Affiliation: 35th (CAT) Composite Air Transport Wing.
Aircraft: Y-12, Cessna 172, Phenom 100, 
Past Aircraft:	Beechcraft Travel Air, Aero Commander, T-6G Texan, Cessna 172, Beech Baron B55, Piper Seneca.


CCS	Combat Commanders School

Based at:	PAF Base Mushaf (Sargodha) 
Raised: May-76
Tactical Role:	To Train Fighter Pilots & AD Controllers For Combat Readiness 
Affiliation: 38th (TA) Wing - Central Air Command
Aircraft: Aircraft on Secondment from active Squadrons 
Past Aircraft: Mirage V PA, Shenyang F-6, LM F-16A/B, F-7P,


80-85 are SAR Squadrons flying a mix of Alouette III and Mi-17V5.

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## Windjammer

@ Sir Fatman, it would be even more business like if you would kindly add the squadron call signs next to the unit. My list is not complete however this is as much i was able to gather.

1. Rahbar (Leaders)
2. Minhas
5. Falcons
6. Antelopes
7. Bandits
8. Haider
9. Griffins
11. Arrows
14. Shaheen/Tail Choppers/Fighting Fourteen
15. Cobras
16. Black Panther
17. Tigers
18. Sharp Shooters
19. Hawk/Sherdil
20. Cheetahs 
22. Ghazi
23. Talons
24. Blinders
25. Eagles
26. Black Spider
27. Night Hawks/ Zarrar

CCS units..... Dashings and Sky bolts.

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## shaziaahmed

the news about the several countries defence purchase are not good this will damage the peace mission in asia pacific


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## Najam Khan

Thankyou sir Fatman, very detailed list....just a question Shahbaz AB comes under 38th Wing? or 39th Wing is formed? Also which SAR sqn is based there? Thanks!

No. 5 Squadron

*Based at:	PAF Base Shahbaz	
Raised: 15-Aug-47
Tactical Role:	Multi - Role	
Affiliation: 38th (TA) Wing - Central Air Command
Aircraft: LM F-16C/D Fighting Falcon	
Past Aircraft: Tempest Mk II, Hawker Fury, F-86 Sabre, Mirage IIIEP,RP*


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## fatman17

NAjAM Khan said:


> Thankyou sir Fatman, very detailed list....just a question Shahbaz AB comes under 38th Wing? or 39th Wing is formed? Also which SAR sqn is based there? Thanks!
> 
> No. 5 Squadron
> 
> *Based at:	PAF Base Shahbaz
> Raised: 15-Aug-47
> Tactical Role:	Multi - Role
> Affiliation: 38th (TA) Wing - Central Air Command
> Aircraft: LM F-16C/D Fighting Falcon
> Past Aircraft: Tempest Mk II, Hawker Fury, F-86 Sabre, Mirage IIIEP,RP*



thanks for asking. i was not 100% sure of this - it may as well be 39th Wing!
on the SAR squadron, i'll get back

---------- Post added at 05:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:48 PM ----------




killerx said:


> these spec of block 2 is said by air cheif marshal right



correct sir

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## TOPGUN

Awsome job sir fatman .. thx alot btw sir which is the biggest airbase in PAF by size aircrafts personal etc? maybe iam wrong but is it not PAF Base Masroor ?


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## razgriz19

TOPGUN said:


> Awsome job sir fatman .. thx alot btw sir which is the biggest airbase in PAF by size aircrafts personal etc? maybe iam wrong but is it not PAF Base Masroor ?



i think that would be Mushaf (sargodha)...?
considering its like the HQ


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## TOPGUN

razgriz19 said:


> i think that would be Mushaf (sargodha)...?
> considering its like the HQ



Thx razgriz19 i also had Mushaf in mind as well but unsure it to me is actually a interesting question and would love to know the actual answer to it.


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## Edevelop

fatman17 said:


> AFM Jan-2012
> 
> JF-17 Thunder. One of the Stars of Dubai
> 
> 3 new JF-17 Thunders, two K-8Ps, a pair of Super Mushshaks and a Saab Erieye 2000 participated in the Dubai air show.
> 
> to date 38 of the 42 Block 1's have been assembled at PAC Kamra, with the last example expected to be delivered in April-2012 by which time, 26 Sqdn at Peshawar and 16 Sqdn at Minhas will have been joined by a third operational unit.
> 
> manufacture of a second batch of 50 Block 2 standard aircraft will commence in mid-2012. their enhancements over the Block 1s will include smarter avionics, better weapons, air-to-air refuelling, *enhanced data-link* and development of a dual-seat version.
> 
> there are at least five countries showing serious interest. one of these is Egypt and the EAF CAS Maj-Gen Abdul Aziz was seen being shown around the aircraft's cockpit display in the static park. he said "we are very interested and even sent a pilot ti China, to train on the simulator".
> 
> 
> Next Month...
> 
> Postcard from Dubai
> Alan Warnes presents a photo-feature of the stars of the Dubai Airshow, held over November 13 to 17.



Does enhanced data link mean that JF-17 will now be having link with F-16s?


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## fatman17

TOPGUN said:


> Awsome job sir fatman .. thx alot btw sir which is the biggest airbase in PAF by size aircrafts personal etc? maybe iam wrong but is it not PAF Base Masroor ?



in the past it used to be Masroor (Mauripur) AB as it has the most squadrons posted there. Mushaf (Sargodha) is famous for the F-16 Sqns and the CCS (Topgun school). it may not be the largest in terms of a/c.

---------- Post added at 11:57 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:55 AM ----------




cb4 said:


> Does enhanced data link mean that JF-17 will now be having link with F-16s?



i think they want the JFT to talk to the erieye's and then also could comm with the F-16's, however i'm not an expert!

---------- Post added at 12:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:57 AM ----------

16x5 = 80 a/c at Masroor as a minimum.

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## fatman17

*N0.81 SAR Squadron*

Location; PAF Base Peshawar
Established; 1963
Aircraft; Alouette III
Role; SAR, Basic Helicopter Conversion Course & Qualified Helicopter Instructor Course. given status of Helicopter Flying Training School.

*N0.82 SAR Squadron*

Location; PAF Base Mushaf
Established; 1958
Aircraft; Mi-17I, Alouette III
Role; SAR, center for Mi-17 aircrew conversion. Captain Conversion & Co-pilot Conversion Courses.


*N0.83 SAR Squadron*

Location; PAF Base Rafiqui
Established; 1972
Aircraft; Alouette III
Role; SAR


*No.84 SAR Squadron*

Location; PAF Base Masroor
Established; 1968
Aircraft; Alouette III, Mi-17I
Role; SAR / Night SAR, assault operations, para droppings.

*No. 85 SAR Squadron*

Location; PAF Base Samungli
Established; 1986
Aircraft; Alouette III
Role, SAR.


*No. 86 SAR Squadron*

Location; PAF Base Mianwali
Established; 1983
Aircraft; Alouette III
Role; SAR, one of its war time roles came to prominence in 2001's Operation Sentinel when S/L Nasruminallah engaged an IAF UAV while flying his Alouette III and shredded it to pieces!


*No.87 SAR Squadron*

Location; PAF Base Kamra-Minhas
Established; 1996
Aircraft; Alouette III
Role; SAR, VIP transport.

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## Edevelop



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## Edevelop

Are there any rumours about Pakistan getting fighter bombers?? We just lost AQ-5 fantan and maybe we should consider buying few Chinese JH-7. What do you all suggest??


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## fatman17

cb4 said:


> Are there any rumours about Pakistan getting fighter bombers?? We just lost AQ-5 fantan and maybe we should consider buying few Chinese JH-7. What do you all suggest??



JFT is the replacement - this is an era of multi-role a/c for small airforces like PAF


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## Najam Khan

cb4 said:


>



Here is the link of this project's official website. CPMC - Commercial Products Manufacturing Cell

The prices are PAC-PAD-1 Rs 15,500 nBook Rs 23,500 PAC-eBook 8,500 (-2,000 discount for PAC employees). I have heard th quality is average...you can check out more specs at the above posted link.


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## fatman17

two systems are not listed above.....

Saab Erieye Squadron? - N0.13?
IL-78Midas MRTT Squadron - No.10?

can anyone verify?


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## Azmal

fatman17 said:


> two systems are not listed above.....
> 
> Saab Erieye Squadron? - N0.13?
> IL-78Midas MRTT Squadron - No.10?
> 
> can anyone verify?



when will we Puchase J20 and EFT sir ?


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## fatman17

Azmal said:


> when will we Puchase J20 and EFT sir ?



no plans as of today!

---------- Post added at 12:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:22 PM ----------

SAR stands for *S*earch *A*nd *R*escue!

what was it called in the 50's/60's.

hint; the old nomenclature had the same initials (in bold)


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## ziaulislam

regarding PAF squadrons, if PAF is to maintain all of its current squadrons it will need atleast 360 front line fighters..if we assume that 150 thunders and 120 j-10/f-16s are inducted by 2015 end, we would have 270 4th gen aircrfts..
so to compensate the gap would this mean that F-7PGs and mirage rose upgrade will continue to operate beyond 2015 ..?


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## White Lightning

*Oman Seeks BAE Systems Bid for Typhoon*





&#8226; The government of Oman has requested that BAE Systems submit a formal bid for the supply of Typhoon fighter aircraft. The move clarifies the Middle East nation&#8217;s continuing commitment to the program following delays in completing negotiations.


----------



## S-A-B-E-R->

unicorn said:


> *Northrop Grumman Scalable Agile Beam Radar (SABR)*
> FEBRUARY 10, 2012*
> 
> The Scalable Agile Beam Radar (SABR), designed specifically for the F-16, is the newest addition to the Northrop Grumman robust family of multi-function sensors. Leveraging Northrop Grumman&#8217;s world-leading AESA technology base, SABR was designed to maximize radar system performance within existing F-16 allocations. SABR is a full performance fire control AESA designed to the support next generation weapons and tactics, in the presence of the world&#8217;s densely-packed electronic threat environment. Backed by decades of experience in the design, development and integration of electronically scanned radar technology, SABR immediately showed its strong heritage, building an unmatched record of successful &#8220;firsts,&#8221; when flight operations started. SABR made its debut on an F-16 in November, 2009, making it the first retrofit AESA to fly in an F-16. Because of Northrop Grumman&#8217;s 35+years of experience with the F-16, SABR spent only 3 days in a systems integration lab (SIL) and quick-turned to flight at Edwards AFB. With only USAF flight test pilots and flight test engineers aboard, SABR flew 17 sorties with 100% mission success rate.
> 
> *SABR Leverages Commonality to Maximize Affordability*
> 
> Since SABR&#8217;s initial unveiling, Northrop Grumman has continued efforts to expand capability and reduce risk. Our SABR system has accumulated thousands of operating hours in the lab and in the air, all without failure, demonstrating superior operational performance and reliability. The antenna has proven as robust as any of the other 5th generation AESAs Northrop Grumman has produced. SABR takes advantage of Northrop Grumman&#8217;s world-leading processes established for rapid, accurate production of the APG-77, -77(V)1, -80, and -81. Northrop Grumman produces AESA radars in a single facility at one location, allowing for tight quality control at every step. The facility houses both the AESA design and production teams. This enables cross-program synergies and rapid innovation producing very consistent, highly reliable systems. Unique in-house automated manufacture and test, antenna test ranges, and our one-of-a-kind flight engineering and test organization assure that SABR&#8217;s customers benefit from these synergies.
> 
> *5th Generation Fighter Capability*
> 
> Northrop Grumman has continued to grow SABR&#8217;s capabilities. By using an internal software porting process, SABR operational capabilities were enhanced to host F-35 modes. SABR participated along with US Forces in operational scenarios and showcased revolutionary operational performance. SABR flew side-by-side with the APG-81 in matching Northrop Grumman flight test aircraft and produced exceptional results in a very challenging environment. For all those who seek AESA performance to deal with the current and evolving threats, there is no substitute for proven flight test results. Only Northrop Grumman can provide these results, and only Northrop Grumman can link them to 5th Generation Fighter capabilities in an F-16.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Northrop Grumman Scalable Agile Beam Radar (SABR) | Defense Update


any chance we buy this beauty


----------



## humza_313

S-A-B-E-R-> said:


> any chance we buy this beauty



Hahaha! Cant see the beauty! Link broken =D

---------- Post added at 11:37 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:35 AM ----------




fatman17 said:


> 36 in hand
> 24 in the process of upgrade and delivery(mix of blk 15 and 40)
> 36 new
> 96 total (5.3 sqdns)
> the original plan was 108 a/c (6 sqdns) so expect additional used F-16s to cover this gap.



I have heard that they are purchasing USED F-16s from some scandanavian airforces. Dont remember the country. And in the coming years all the block 15s will be converted to F-16AM/BM block 40+ through MLU.


----------



## fatman17

* J-20 Mighty Dragon* 
5th Gen Fighter


The J-20 #2001 prototype/technology demonstrator made its maiden flight on January 11, 2011 over the city of Chengdu, wearing a distinctive dark green color scheme (RAM coating applied?) and powered by two indigenous WS-1X turbofan engines. The prototype features a pair of all-moving tailfins and Russian 1.44 style twin ventral stabilizing fins and tail booms, which shield the engine nozzles but might increase RCS. Also there are four large underwing actuator fairings which might not be stealth optimized. It also features an F-22 style forward fuselage, including adjustable Caret inlets but with DSI bumps installed at the upper inner corners, as well as a one-piece frameless canopy. Small LERX are installed between the canards and main wings in order to generate vortex together with the canards at high AoA. Two small dark diamond shaped windows can be seen on both sides of the nose, which could house certain EO sensors, such as MAWS and/or IRST. Two additional windows are seen underneath the rear fuselage, plus two more on top of the forward fuselage above the canard wings, suggesting a distributed situational awareness system similar to the EODAS onboard American F-35 was installed providing a full 360° coverage. Besides a large belly weapon bay for short/long-range AAMs (up to 6 PL-10, PL-12C/D & PL-21), two smaller lateral weapon bays have been identified behind the air inlets for short-range AAMs (up to 2 PL-10). The 2001 prototype appears to fly without an internal gun, which is expected to be installed on later ones. First disclosed by US Office of Naval Intelligence (ONI) in 1997 as XXJ, J-20 (Project 718) is a 4th generation heavy multi-role fighter to enter the service with PLAAF between 2016 and 2018, a timeframe much faster than the one (>2020) anticipated by the western military analysts. Since early 90s both CAC/611 Institute and SAC/601 Institute had been working their own designs to bid for a twin-engine heavy fighter with stealth capability and maneuverability comparable to American F-22. It was speculated that 601 Institute was working on a "tri-plane" design (J-19?) based on canard/conventional layout/V-shape tailfin while 611 Institute working on a design based on canard/tailless delta wing/V-shape tailfin/lateral DSI/bump inlet layout. All designs were expected to feature a belly internal weapon bay to reduce RCS, which has been speculated to be <0.05m2 (head-on). J-20 also incorporates an advanced FBW (or FBL?) system fully integrated with the fire-control and the engine systems. Its fire-control radar is expected to be AESA (Type 1475/KLJ5?) based on the less powerful model being tested onboard J-10B, both are developed by the 14th Institute. The radar is thought to be comparable to American APG-77. The next generation secure datalink is believed to be installed as well which provides secure networking with other J-20s and KJ-200/2000 AWACS. The aircraft also features a "pure" glass cockpit (two large color LCDs plus a few smaller ones and a wide-angle holographic HUD). Many of these subsystems have been tested onboard J-10B to speed up the development (see above). A dorsal receptacle might be installed to reduce RCS instead of a nose probe for IFR purpose. The exact type of engine powering prototypes is uncertain, even though a Chinese or Russian turbofan engine including AL-31F (13t class) and enhanced WS-10 (WS-10X?) (14t class) has been speculated. The enhanced WS-10X turbofan is capable of generating a higher thrust by sacrificing the engine life. Therefore this particular type of engine is for the J-20 prototype only and not for production models. Leaked images suggest that two types of engines were installed (separately on two 2001 prototypes?) but only one type was used for the maiden flight. One is AL-31F, the other is thought to be WS-10X featuring a silver color "stealth" nozzle with saw tooth edges to reduce RCS and IR emission. However the nozzle has yet to demonstrate an axisymmetric TVC capability. It was reported in November 2006 that a 17-18t class T/W=9.5-10 turbofan (WS-15/"large thrust") with a TVC nozzle is being developed and will eventually power J-20s in production. J-20 appears slightly longer and slimmer than both F-22 and T-50, suggesting a compromise between achieving high speed/maneuverability and the less powerful engines available. Therefore currently the J-20 prototype still lacks the supercurise capability until the planned WS-15 turbofan enters the service. Russian assistance was also speculated in terms of software support for calculating the RCS and aerodynamics of various designs. The overall performance of J-20 is thought to be superior to that of Russian T-50 (maneuverability & supercruise) but still inferior to that of American F-22 (electronics & stealth). In August 2008 it was reported that 611 Institute was selected to be the main contractor for the development of J-20 and 601 Institute as the sub-contractor. Subsequently a full-scale metal mockup was built at CAC. One rumor in May 2010 claimed that 611 Institute started to construct the first prototype, which was expected to fly by the end of 2010, even though the full configuration version won't fly until a few years later. Two prototypes have been constructed and the first low-speed taxi trial by 2001 took place on November 4, 2010. Once entering the service, J-20 could pose a significant impact/challenge to the air balance in eastern Asian and western Pacific region. 

- Last Updated 2/15/12

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## Nishan_101

White Lightning said:


> *Oman Seeks BAE Systems Bid for Typhoon*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  The government of Oman has requested that BAE Systems submit a formal bid for the supply of Typhoon fighter aircraft. The move clarifies the Middle East nations continuing commitment to the program following delays in completing negotiations.


 
J-10B/BS are much cheaper and better platform for Oman and they must look seriously into it.....


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## fatman17

*Chinese FAB-3000* 

They might not be smart but the are really, really, big. Who says size doesn't matter? - drop them from C-130's and see what happens below!


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## PakShaheen79

Nishan_101 said:


> J-10B/BS are much cheaper and better platform for Oman and they must look seriously into it.....



Only problem with J-10B program is that it is in prototyping phase and China seriously cannot show it to anyone right now (except Pakistan  )


----------



## fatman17

*Military Flight Training 2012 conference taking place in London next month.*

Now in its 11th year, Military Flight Training provides an exclusive opportunity to meet Air Training Commanders and Programme Managers responsible for establishing current requirements, future capabilities and technological developments necessary to reduce training gaps. The conference programme analyses the debate between the increased use of innovative simulation over live flight training, the necessary regime and equipment advancements to provide bespoke 5th Generation Fighter Training and pioneering methods of increasing flight training excellence whilst reducing costs. 

The 2012 event has been developed to provide you with some fantastic new features:

&#8226;Military Flight Training 2020+ event theme: Focused discussions on the equipment and regime development road map t o the year 2020+ 
&#8226;Advanced Pilot Training Workshop: Extensive discussions of experiences and plans for advanced pilot training led by the T-X Program Office responsible for the $7.2 billion T-X Program 
&#8226;5th Generation Fighter Focus Day: Targeted discussions on the topics that matter to you most during the Training & Simulation for the 5th Generation Fighter Focus Day 
&#8226;New Networking Opportunities: Participate in interactive round table discussions designed to provoke in-depth debate regarding the hottest topics in requirements, capabilities & applications 
The conference includes presentations from the world&#8217;s leading air forces, navies and armies with keynote sessions delivered by senior decision makers. The 2012 speaker faculty includes:

&#8226;Air Vice Marshal Aman, Deputy Chief of Air Staff (Training), Pakistan Air Force
&#8226;Brigadier General Nowland, Director Plans, Programs and Assessment, Air Education Training Command, US Air Force
&#8226;Brigadier General Frigerio, Deputy Chief of Aerospace Plans and Policy, Italian Air Force
&#8226;Brigadier General Darendeli, Chief of Air Training, Turkish Air Force
&#8226;Colonel Van Dusen, T-X Chief Program Manager & Senior Materiel Leader, Training Aircraft Joint Program Office, Aeronautical Systems Center, US Air Force
&#8226;Lieutenant Colonel Vitas, Deputy Program Manager T-X, Training Aircraft Divisio n, Aeronautical Systems Center, US Air Force


----------



## fatman17

*Commander of S Lankan Air Force visits Air HQs*



Staff Reporter


Islamabad&#8212;Air Marshal Harsha Duminda Abeywickrama, Commander of Sri Lankan Air Force visited Air Headquarters Islamabad. 

He is visiting Pakistan on the invitation of Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force for 06 days. On his arrival at Air Headquarters, Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force received the distinguished guest. 

A smartly turned out contingent of Pakistan Air Force presented the Guard of Honour. After reviewing the Guard of Honour, he was introduced to Principal Staff Officers of Pakistan Air Force. The visiting guest paid homage to the martyrs of PAF by laying floral wreath on Martyrs&#8217; Monument at Air Headquarters Islamabad.


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## Nishan_101

Is there any news about the PAC construction and its progress at NAWABSHAH, as we are all expecting that it will be much bigger than the KAMRA one???


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## Nishan_101

PakShaheen79 said:


> Only problem with J-10B program is that it is in prototyping phase and China seriously cannot show it to anyone right now (except Pakistan  )


I think the J-10B and J-10BS is also completed and China don't used to let others now about its project other than the JF-17. FC-20 that Pakistan will be getting soon are good ones and I am sure that Oman requirements can be easily fulfilled with them and I am sure that getting 100 of these would supplement them in every way along with some 5 AWE&Cs too.


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## Storm Force

Buying military hardware is VERY political.

OMAN WILL buy trusted reliable ALLY western equipment. THEY cannot risk fallout with the west


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## fatman17

Nishan_101 said:


> Is there any news about the PAC construction and its progress at NAWABSHAH, as we are all expecting that it will be much bigger than the KAMRA one???



delayed - 'moula' ($$$) problem!


----------



## fatman17

*New DG ISI and PAF chief take command*

DAWN.COM

Vice Chief of Air Staff Air Marshal Muhammad Tahir Rafique Butt and others in Peshawar.

ISLAMABAD: Air Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt on Monday took over as the new Chief of the Air Staff of Pakistan Air Force, DawnNews reported.

Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman was due to retire on March 18, 2012, on completion of his three-year tenure.

The PAF&#8217;s change of command ceremony took place at the Air Headquarters in Islamabad.

Former Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman pinned the batch and handed over the PAF&#8217;s Sword of Command to the new Air Marshal.

The PAF&#8217;s scout paraded and saluted the former and new Air Marshal.



Moreover, Lt Gen Zahir ul Islam took charge of the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) chief from the Lt Gen Ahmed Shuja Pasha who was scheduled to retired.


----------



## fatman17

*Passing the baton*

By: S M Hali


March 21, 2012.


Pakistan Air Force witnessed a change in command through a solemn, but impressive ceremony at the headquarters on Monday, March 19, 2012. The passing of the baton was symbolically marked by handing over the command sword by the outgoing Air Chief Rao Qamar Suleman to his successor Deputy Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt. 

The departing Air Chief, however, will look back at his tenure with satisfaction. He spearheaded the induction and operationalisation of a number of force multipliers in the PAF, which include four IL-78P Midas air-to-air refueler aircrafts from Ukraine, the Swedish Saab-2000 Erieye and Chinese Shaanxi ZDK-03 AEW&C (airborne early warning and control aircraft), fourth generation F-16 Block-52 state-of-the-art fighter aircraft, upgradation of the old F-16 Block 15 MLU (midlife update) and the JF-17 Thunder indigenously produced in collaboration with China, additional air transport aircraft and missile systems, precision guided munitions and remotely piloted vehicles that assisted in the war on terror. 

Under the leadership of Qamar Suleman, the PAF developed the counter insurgency doctrine, carried out extensive training and implemented successful strategy against the militants. Operating in tandem with his khaki counterpart, General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani, he led successful aerial operations in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa and FATA against them. Another remarkable achievement is the flight safety record during his tenure despite extensive flying. He incorporated a paradigm shift in the PAF training philosophy from skill-based to knowledge-based. 

The PAF showcased its modern weapons system platforms through exercise &#8220;Highmark&#8221;, and dovetailing air operations in the biggest army exercise &#8220;Azm-e-Nau&#8221; and naval exercise &#8220;Amn&#8221;. Following the 2008 Mumbai attacks, India wanted to conduct surgical strikes against selected targets in Pakistan. The air force was put on high alert and on December 14, 2008, when two Indian Air Force (IAF) fighter aircrafts penetrated Pakistani airspace, they were intercepted and forced to retreat, prompting New Delhi to call off its foolhardy scheme. In his farewell speech, Suleman not only highlighted PAF&#8217;s achievements gained through teamwork, but also disappointments mainly referring to the May 2, 2011, US operation to eliminate Osama bin Laden. 

Both Rao Qamar Suleman and Tahir Rafique Butt have been my juniors in the air force, as well as at the PAF Public School, Sargodha. In fact, I had the opportunity to briefly teach Butt at the PAF Academy, Risalpur, and have followed his training career with keen interest. Indeed, Tahir is an excellent choice to lead the PAF. He has been selected on merit, and is a capable, upright and honest officer, who will lead by personal example. 

Surely, he would strengthen the air force and focus on the operational employment of the weapon systems already inducted. His main challenges would be the motivation of the PAF personnel, purging the service of extremists, if any, in the elite fighting force, and ensuring that the force continues its support in the war on terror under the guidance of the government. 

Pakistan&#8217;s arch rival India has a formidable air force. Despit this, the PAF has always faced the challenges from the IAF gallantly, getting the better of its numerically superior adversary in all encounters. In its latest budget, India has enhanced its defence outlay by 17 percent. With its scarce resources, Islamabad cannot pursue keeping up with New Delhi&#8217;s ambitious weapons systems induction programme. Hence, Tahir would be well advised not to pursue it, but instead focus on PAF&#8217;s traditional advantages of better training, superior maintenance and enhanced operational capabilities of its aircrew.

n The writer is a political and defence analyst.

Email: sultanm.hali@gmail.com

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## fatman17

*PAF in highest state of operational readiness: Rao*

By: Our Staff Reporter | March 20, 2012


ISLAMABAD - without naming political leadership, the outgoing PAF Chief, Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman has emphasised the need for unambiguous instructions given to the armed forces in order to responding to challenges to the national security.&#8221;Where there were successes, PAF also faces certain challenges as well. 

However, we must analyse our environment and decide about our policies and give clear unambiguous instructions to the armed forces&#8221;, the outgoing PAF Chief said in his address to the command handing over talking over ceremony here at PAF headquarters on Monday.

The outgoing Air Chief said that Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has been equipped with latest weapon systems, which has enhanced its operational capabilities to adequately meet all the challenges. 

Rao Qamar Suleman said he was retiring from the PAF with a deep sense of fulfilment, as the PAF was in the highest state of operational readiness. 

He said all the latest weapon systems have been inducted and operationalised ; the fighter fleet has been upgraded with the fourth generation fighter aircraft and force multipliers. 

He pointed out that the PAF has established two squadrons of its very own indigenously produced JF-17 Thunder Aircraft whose production started in the last three years. 

This aircraft also saw unprecedented success in various exercises and international Air Shows the world over. 

Air Chief Marshal Qamar Suleman said other major inductions included Saab-2000 AEW&C, ZDK-03 AWACS, IL-76 air-to-air refuellers and Spada-2000 Lomad systems. Alongside induction of sophisticated equipment, its operationalisation and availability for operations was attained in a very professional manner within these 3 years. 

He said handling technologies four decades apart was the real test for the operational and technical experts of the PAF. They all can be proud of the fact that, despite limitations, PAF as a team with its talented human resource accomplished both the tasks in the most professional manner. 

&#8220;Today we can claim with confidence that the technical and operational capabilities of PAF have been strengthened to adequately meet all the challenges,&#8221; he declared. 

He said another important achievement, while they were inducting and operationalising new hardware, participating in national and international exercises, revamping training system, operating the legacy systems and undertaking all operational tasks as necessitated by the environment, the PAF also accomplished maximum flying in its history. 

For two consecutive years, PAF crossed the 90,000 hrs mark and they could be proud of the fact that these feats were accomplished while achieving the best ever flight safety record in these three years and making 2010 an accident free year first time in our history and that too with maximum flying during the year.

The outgoing Air Chief said during the last three years, there have been numerous new initiatives, introduction of new policies and systems, very large number of successful operational and non-operational accomplishments and meaningful contributions towards nation building as well as provision of support during natural calamities. All this could not have been possible without Allah Almighty&#8217;s blessings and devotion, dedication and hard work by his excellent team, which included all the PSOs, ACsAS, field commanders and all airmen of the PAF. 

He thanked all members of his team for their all out support and for helping him achieve all he could do with outstanding standards of professionalism and safety.

Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman reminded that where there were successes, PAF also faces certain challenges as well. 

But as professionals they need to understand that PAF operates in very difficult environment, and has to work within the defined policy guidelines and constraints. 

They must analyse environment and decide about their policies and give clear unambiguous instructions to the armed forces.

He congratulated Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt on his appointment as Chief of the Air Staff. 

He said Air Chief Marshal Tahir is an outstanding professional, accomplished airman and good human being. 

He said it was a matter of satisfaction for him that he was handing over the command of PAF to a thoroughbred professional. He has a poised personality, and the rare ability to judge and analyse matters with deep insight, Rao observed.

He expressed the confidence that under the able leadership of the new commander, the force as a team will work with the same dedication and find new ways to make PAF &#8216;Second to None&#8217; as envisioned by the great Quaid. 

He hoped under the leadership of new commander, Pakistan Air Force would attain new heights of glory.

Later, Air Chief Marshal, Rao Qamar Suleman formally handed over the PAF&#8217;s Sword of Command to Air Marshal, Tahir Rafique Butt. 

Both the outgoing and incoming air chiefs were presented separate guards of honour to formally mark the change of command. Born in 1955, Air Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt received his early education at PAF Public School, Sargodha. Subsequently, he joined Pakistan Air Force and graduated from PAF Academy, Risalpur in March, 1977. After doing his Fighter and Operational Conversion Courses, he has flown various types of fighters and training aircraft on PAF Inventory. 

He is a qualified Flying Instructor and also a Combat Commander on Fighters. He has commanded an elite Fighter Squadron, a Fighter Flying Wing and two PAF Bases. In staff jobs at Air Headquarters, the Air Marshal has served as Deputy Director Plans, Director Flight Safety, Assistant Chief of the Air Staff (P-O) in Personnel Branch and Assistant Chief of the Air Staff (Training). In senior staff assignments, the Air Marshal has the distinction of having served as Director General National Accountability Bureau (KPK) Commandant National Security College, NDU, Air Officer Commanding Southern Air Command and Deputy Chief of the Air Staff (Personnel). 

Before taking over as air chief, he was serving as Vice Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force.

Tahir Rafique Butt is a graduate of Staff College, Turkey and National Defence University, Islamabad from where he did his M.Sc in Defence and Strategic Studies.

He is married and blessed with three children. In recognition of his meritorious and exceptionally dedicated services, he has been decorated with the awards of Hilal-i-Imtiaz (Military), Sitara-i-Imtiaz (Military) and Tamgha-i-Basalat.

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## fatman17

ACM (R) Rao Qamar Suleman appointed MD of PIA.........

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## fatman17

AFM May issue has article on PAF

*Pakistans force multiplier*

Pakistan is striving to modernise its military forces to help guarantee security of its borders and, for the first time, has purchased a significant air-to-air refuelling capability in the Ilyushin-78MP. Ghazi Ali Shah tells AFM all about the mighty Midas.


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## epinephrine

fatman17 said:


> ACM (R) Rao Qamar Suleman appointed MD of PIA.........



rao sab got the result of his "extra curricular activites" with the PM.
he got his new job but no doubt PAF has greatly lost its pride n fame under his command.


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## SurvivoR

^^^ Interesting comment regarding PAF losing its pride and fame.... care to elaborate on it for the uninformed?

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## fatman17

epinephrine said:


> rao sab got the result of his "extra curricular activites" with the PM.
> he got his new job but no doubt PAF has greatly lost its pride n fame under his command.



the ACM was not a visionary guy but he did what had to be done.


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## nomi007

fatman17 said:


> AFM May issue has article on PAF
> 
> *Pakistan&#8217;s force multiplier*
> 
> Pakistan is striving to modernise its military forces to help guarantee security of its borders and, for the first time, has purchased a significant air-to-air refuelling capability in the Ilyushin-78MP. Ghazi Ali Shah tells AFM all about the mighty Midas.


is there any chance of kc-135 for f-16s?


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## fatman17

AIR International - April 2012 issue.

Additional T-37s Delivered to Pakistan.
The Basic Flying Training Wing (BFT) at Risalpur, home to the PAF Academy, is currently taking delivery of 40 ex-USAF Cessna T-37B's. Though only a few of them will be put to service, these additional Tweets will enable the PAF to ramp up its pilot training. - Alan Warnes

New Markings for Pakistan Mirage 5.
No.25 Squadron 'Eagles' of the PAF based at Rafiqui has recently painted Dassault Mirage 5 in luminescent markings in a bid to distinguish its aircraft from the other co-located night attack Mirage unit, No. 27 Squadron. Alan Warnes.

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## Windjammer

Alan Warnes recently spent another couple of weeks in Pakistan, visiting most of the PAF bases. The current issue of AFM carries some interesting pictures and information.

*All Herks Now Grey* 
Gone are the days of all PAF's Hercules sporting different colours-the fleet has now been sprayed in a standard grey paint scheme. To meet the PAF's air transport requirements for the southern Pakistan, No 21 squadron based at Faisal, equipped with C-130Es was raised some three years earlier.

*JF-17 Production Rolls On*

Shown sitting under a sun shed outside the JF-17 Flight Test Hangar is SP-29 aircraft. Still in primer and carrying three fuel tanks, it had just taken a "shake-down" flight to check for snags.

*
Specially marked Mirage V EF*

Rafiqui-based 25 squadron ( Eagles) has recently painted it's Mirages in infra-red markings in a bid to distinguish it's aircraft from the co-located night attack Mirage unit, 27 squadron.

Four additional two seat FT-7s were supplied by PLAAF back in May 2010. All four were flown from China to Kamra-Minhas AB.

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## fd24

Windjammer said:


> Alan Warnes recently spent another couple of weeks in Pakistan, visiting most of the PAF bases. The current issue of AFM carries some interesting pictures and information.
> 
> *All Herks Now Grey*
> Gone are the days of all PAF's Hercules sporting different colours-the fleet has now been sprayed in a standard grey paint scheme. To meet the PAF's air transport requirements for the southern Pakistan, No 21 squadron based at Faisal, equipped with C-130Es was raised some three years earlier.
> 
> *JF-17 Production Rolls On*
> 
> Shown sitting under a sun shed outside the JF-17 Flight Test Hangar is SP-29 aircraft. Still in primer and carrying three fuel tanks, it had just taken a "shake-down" flight to check for snags.
> 
> *
> Specially marked Mirage V EF*
> 
> Rafiqui-based 25 squadron ( Eagles) has recently painted it's Mirages in infra-red markings in a bid to distinguish it's aircraft from the co-located night attack Mirage unit, 27 squadron.
> 
> Four additional two seat FT-7s were supplied by PLAAF back in May 2010. All four were flown from China to Kamra-Minhas AB.



Welcome back my Windy - great to see you back - always an encyclopedia of knowledge!

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## DANGER-ZONE

Windjammer said:


> *Four additional two seat FT-7s were supplied by PLAAF back in May 2010. All four were flown from China to Kamra-Minhas AB.*



I remembered the news that* CHINA WILL SUPPLY 4 FREE TRAINERS TO PAKISTAN* ... and people were bouncing in joy because they thought it would be L-15 or JL-9 ..... 

here you go  http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...reed-provide-4-trainer-aircraft-pakistan.html

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## DANGER-ZONE

fatman17 said:


> AIR International - April 2012 issue.
> 
> Additional T-37s Delivered to Pakistan.
> The Basic Flying Training Wing (BFT) at Risalpur, home to the PAF Academy, is currently taking delivery of 40 ex-USAF Cessna T-37B's. Though only a few of them will be put to service, these additional Tweets will enable the PAF to ramp up its pilot training. - Alan Warnes
> 
> *New Markings for Pakistan Mirage 5**.
> No.25 Squadron 'Eagles' of the PAF based at Rafiqui has recently painted Dassault Mirage 5 in luminescent markings in a bid to distinguish its aircraft from the other co-located night attack Mirage unit, No. 27 Squadron. Alan Warnes.*


 


Windjammer said:


> Alan Warnes recently spent another couple of weeks in Pakistan, visiting most of the PAF bases. The current issue of AFM carries some interesting pictures and information.
> 
> *All Herks Now Grey*
> Gone are the days of all PAF's Hercules sporting different colours-the fleet has now been sprayed in a standard grey paint scheme. To meet the PAF's air transport requirements for the southern Pakistan, No 21 squadron based at Faisal, equipped with C-130Es was raised some three years earlier.
> 
> *JF-17 Production Rolls On*
> 
> Shown sitting under a sun shed outside the JF-17 Flight Test Hangar is SP-29 aircraft. Still in primer and carrying three fuel tanks, it had just taken a "shake-down" flight to check for snags.
> 
> *
> Specially marked Mirage V EF*
> 
> *Rafiqui-based 25 squadron ( Eagles) has recently painted it's Mirages in infra-red markings in a bid to distinguish it's aircraft from the co-located night attack Mirage unit, 27 squadron.*



Here you go Fellas

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## Windjammer

danger-zone said:


> Here you go Fellas



My dear, this example is not in infra-red markings. Aircraft# 755 has been applied with the said markings.....i'll try and post the image later.


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## Windjammer

*Sorry for the poor quality, you can see the infra-red markings on the tail and under the canopy of No 25 squadron's Mirage-5EF, home base Rafiqui.
*

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## haroonn

But isn't No. 25 Sqd. based at Minhas? My understanding was Rafiqui only hosted No. 15 (Cobras) and No. 27 (Zarrars) Mirage squadrons besides No. 20 F-7PG and No. 83 SAR sqd.


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## fatman17

haroonn said:


> But isn't No. 25 Sqd. based at Minhas? My understanding was Rafiqui only hosted No. 15 (Cobras) and No. 27 (Zarrars) Mirage squadrons besides No. 20 F-7PG and No. 83 SAR sqd.



they have made way for JFT 3rd squadron at Minhas. to be officially stood up soon.

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## DANGER-ZONE

danger-zone said:


> Here you go Fellas


 



Windjammer said:


> My dear, this example is not in infra-red markings. Aircraft# 755 has been applied with the said markings.....i'll try and post the image later.






Windjammer said:


> *Sorry for the poor quality, you can see the infra-red markings on the tail and under the canopy of No 25 squadron's Mirage-5EF, home base Rafiqui.
> *



What is Infra red Marking ? Does it glow in Infra-red enabled camera or FLIR. If yes then M-VEF 756 markings may also glow when viewed through IR. Because Sqn No. 25 would not have just painted one Mirage but all its fleet.


> _Specially marked Mirage V EF_
> *Rafiqui-based 25 squadron ( Eagles) has recently painted it's Mirages in infra-red markings* in a bid to distinguish it's aircraft from the co-located night attack Mirage unit, 27 squadron.


something like that Materials for IR and visible vehicle identification from surveillance aircraft | SPIE Newsroom: SPIE

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## Windjammer

danger-zone said:


> What is Infra red Marking ? Does it glow in Infra-red enabled camera or FLIR. If yes then M-VEF 756 makings may also glow when viewed through IR. Because Sqn No. 25 would not have just painted one Mirage but all its fleet.
> 
> something like that Materials for IR and visible vehicle identification from surveillance aircraft | SPIE Newsroom: SPIE



It's the green wordings (Eagles, Night Strike) which glows in the dark, Mirage 755 may just be a test bed to determine the effectiveness of this exercise.

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## Nishan_101

danger-zone said:


> What is Infra red Marking ? Does it glow in Infra-red enabled camera or FLIR. If yes then M-VEF 756 markings may also glow when viewed through IR. Because Sqn No. 25 would not have just painted one Mirage but all its fleet.
> 
> something like that Materials for IR and visible vehicle identification from surveillance aircraft | SPIE Newsroom: SPIE


*Where is that post, in which Page???*


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## DANGER-ZONE

Nishan_101 said:


> *Where is that post, in which Page???*



talking about the news from AFM ? ... http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...-monthly-news-discussions-28.html#post2805415.


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## DANGER-ZONE

Windjammer said:


> It's the green wordings (Eagles, Night Strike) which glows in the dark, Mirage 755 may just be a test bed to determine the effectiveness of this exercise.



Damnn .... then they are Electroluminescence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
Something like this on F-18 and other Modern aircraft. the dim light ... 8)





Plz Expend further discussion here .... http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/44991-capabilities-paf-mirage-3-5-a-14.html leave this thread for AFM articles.


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## fatman17

*MAR-1 ARM* 
Short-range, laser-guided, air-to-surface missile. 

Development 

MAR-1 is an anti-radiation missile (ARM) developed by Brazil's Mectron and the Aerospace Technical Center (Centro Técnico Aeroespacial, CTA) of the Brazilian Air Force (FAB). Development began in 1997 and was kept under tight secrecy, for many years the weapon's manufacturers refused to acknowledge its existence. The missile is guided by a Brazilian-developed passive anti-radiation seeker designed to target different types of land-based and sea-based radars with different modes, including high power surveillance radars, low power mobile radars and radars used by surface-to-air missile systems. Enemy radars can be targeted by the missile independently or with targeting data from the launch aircraft's electronic warfare systems, such as the radar warning receiver. 

Design
The missile's airframe is constructed from composite materials to reduce its radar cross-section. MAR-1 has been reported to have a range of 25 km when launched from an altitude of approximately 33,000 feet, but according to a Brazilian engineer the actual range is far larger than this. The MAR-1 is fully MIL-STD-1553 and -1760 databus compatible. For non databus-equipped aircraft a standalone integration using a dedicated fire-control unit and display can be fitted in the cockpit. That is the approach adopted for Brazil's non-upgraded Embraer AMX (A-1) attack aircraft. 

Operational Status 

In December 2008 the Brazilian government approved the sale of 100 MAR-1 missiles to the Pakistan Air Force in a contract worth $108 million.

In mid-2011 it was reported that MAR-1 was being integrated with the JF-17 which shows that Pakistan has a well-structured program to expand the capability of the aircraft beyond its Chinese roots. The MAR-1 is the second non-Chinese weapon that the JF-17 is known to be adopting after the HAFR runway penetration bomb. 

Once operational, the MAR-1 will be the PAF's only modern anti-radiation weapon and a significant boost to its combat capabilities. The missile has several operational modes, but is typically used in a pre-programmed attack against known emitting targets in a lock-on-after-launch engagement. Mectron has developed a dedicated mission planning system for such operations.

The MAR-1 is likely to operate, at least initially, with a 'missile-as-sensor' function, meaning that the weapon's own wideband radio frequency seeker is the primary sensor for emitter location and targeting. The JF-17's Chinese developers certainly have the expertise to produce a more capable emitter location system in the future. The MAR-1 can also use supplementary targeting information from the JF-17's radar warning receivers.

Pakistan has a growing number of electronic intelligence (ELINT) systems with which it can build an electronic order of battle of hostile emitters to support MAR-1 targeting. This includes the highly capable HES-21 ELINT system carried by the PAF's recently delivered Erieye airborne early warning and control aircraft.

The MAR-1 has yet to enter formal FAB service, but understands that qualification flight testing in Brazil will conclude by the end of 2011.

SPECIFICATIONS : 

Type: Anti-radiation missile (ARM) 
Manufacturer: Mectron, Brazil 
Weight: 274 KG (600 lb) 
Length: 4.03 meters (13.2 ft) 
Diameter: 0.23 metres (0.75 ft) 
Warhead: High Explosive 
Warhead Weight: 90 KG (200 lb) 
Detonation mechanism: Laser / contact proximity fuse 
Guidance: Passive radar homing, home-on-jam 
Launch platform aircraft: Northrop F-5, AMX, JF-17 Thunder, Mirage-III

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## fatman17

*Quaid&#8217;s first ADC: Mian Atta Rabbani passes away*


Rabban*i collec*ted Rs27,500 for the last genera*l electi*ons held in undivi*ded India. 

By Our Correspondent

Published: June 3, 2012

KARACHI: 

Mian Atta Rabbani, father of Senator Mian Raza Rabbani, passed away here on Saturday after a protracted illness. He was 90.

Born in Jalandhar, India, he had the singular honour of serving as first Aide-de Camp of Governor-General Quaid-e-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah. He was also the first pilot to be transferred from the Royal Indian Air Force to the Royal Pakistan Air Force in the newly-born state of Pakistan.

Mian Atta Rabbani accompanied Quaid-e-Azam and Mohtarma Fatima Jinnah from New Delhis&#8217; Palam Airport to Mauripur Airport, Karachi, on August 7, 1947. He served with Quaid-e-Azam approximately for six months. He was later posted as Flying Instructor at the Flying Training School of Royal Pakistan Air Force, Risalpur, to train cadets of the air force of the newly-created state.

He retired from PAF as Group Captain and later wrote many books about his association with the Father of the Nation and about the ideology of Pakistan. His most important book is &#8220;I was the Quaids&#8217; Aide-de-Camp.&#8221; Mian Atta Rabbani, fearless of a possible court martial while serving in Indian Royal Air Force, collected donations for the crucial last general elections held in undivided India and handed over a donation of Rs27,500 to the Quaid-e-Azam.

His funeral prayers will be offered at Sultan Masjid in DHA after Zohr prayers on Sunday. He will be laid to rest in the Armed Forces graveyard at Chanesar Goth.

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## Saquib

Just a thought - Are PAF Fighter Planes protected against EMP - Electromagnetic pulse.


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## niaz

Group Capt. Atta Rabbani was head of Public Affairs at Esso Pakistan when I joined Esso in 1967. He was a nice and amiable man. May Allah bless his soul. 

Inna lillah-e- wa inna ilahey rajayoon.

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## fatman17

*J-16* 

The first photos of what could be the J-16 prototype taxiing at the SAC airfield were disclosed in May 2012. It was first rumored in August 2010 that SAC is developing a 3.5 generation heavy multi-role fighter bomber (J-16?) based on J-11BS. The aircraft can be viewed as an upgraded version of Su-30MKK based on its mission and capability, which is comparable to American F-15E. First flight was rumored to have taken place in late 2011. J-16 has tandem seats with a WSO sitting in the backseat. It features an enhanced fire-control system with additional AG modes. Besides PL-8 and PL-12 AAMs, it could also carry the same precision guided weapons being carried by JH-7A, such as KD-88 ASM and LS-500J LGB. The aircraft also features an extended tail sting similar to Russian Su-34, which could house additional electronics. Compared to JH-7A, J-16 is expected to have a more powerful radar (AESA?), a greater weapon load (8t) and a longer range (4,000km). 

- Last Updated 6/7/12 

_PAF should look into this system. made for export by China. _


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## alimobin memon

Saquib said:


> Just a thought - Are PAF Fighter Planes protected against EMP - Electromagnetic pulse.


No one has any shield regarding EMP however if EMP is carried by ballistic missile , the only way would be anti ballistic missile. otherwise not in any country.


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## fatman17

*PAF Starfighters - Induction to Phasing Out* 



Induction Date... Tail Nr...... Remarks

5 Aug 1961.........56-802......Lost on 09-11-1963 when the aircraft went into spin. F/O Asghar Shah ejected

5 Aug 1961.........56-803......Lost on 03-09-1964 during a low pull-out. F/L Tariq Majeed died in the accident

5 Aug 1961.........56-804......Lost on 05-12-1971 due to AAA. F/L Amjad Hussein ejected

5 Aug 1961........ 56-805..... Lost on 10-07-1968 due to fire while on ground. Pilot S/L Asif Iqbal survived 
5 Aug 1961........ 56-807...... Lost on 15-04-1968 due to an inflight fire. F/L G U Abasi died in the accident 
5 Aug 1961........ 56-868...... Lost on 17-09-1965 due to pilot getting disoriented. F/L G U Abbasi survived the accident 
5 Aug 1961........ 56-874...... Preserved at PAF Base, Sargodha 
5 Aug 1961........ 56-875...... Mounted at AHQ Chaklala 
5 Aug 1961.........56-877.......Lost on 07-09-1965 after a mid-air collision with IAF Mystere. F/L Amjad Hussein ejected

5 Aug 1961........ 56-879....... Mounted ar PAF Base, Masroor 
8 June 1964........56-773........Lost in air combat on 12-12-1971. Pilot W/C M L Middlecoat died after the ejection

1 March 1966......56-798........Preserved at PAF Base, Faisal

5 August 1961..... 57-1309.... Preserved at PAF Academy, Risalpur 
5 August 1961......57-1312.....Preserved at PAF Museum, Faisal


Special Thanks to Jet Fighter Aircraft | Cash Advance | Debt Consolidation | Insurance at Pafcombat.com for the list

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## Windjammer

During their brief service, the F-104 served PAF well in both interception and long range strike roles.
During the 1965 war, the Indians termed the F-104 as "Badmash" and it was a Starfighter, which forced an IAF Gnat to air surrender.

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## fatman17

Windjammer said:


> During their brief service, the F-104 served PAF well in both interception and *long range strike roles.*During the 1965 war, the Indians termed the F-104 as "Badmash" and it was a Starfighter, which forced an IAF Gnat to air surrender.



jammer are we sure about this?


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## Windjammer

fatman17 said:


> jammer are we sure about this?



Yes sir, famous day light strike on Utterlai being one of them.





*
F-104A 56-874 Utterlai strike*

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## fatman17

Windjammer said:


> Yes sir, famous day light strike on Utterlai being one of them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> F-104A 56-874 Utterlai strike*



what was the weapons load - just the 20mm cannon?

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## Windjammer

fatman17 said:


> what was the weapons load - just the 20mm cannon?



That's right, the F-104A model in PAF inventory was just equipped with a 20mm Gatling gun plus a couple of sidewinders.
The "B" model didn't even have a gun, just the AIM-9Bs, but it was used in that famous "Judy" mission, where the rear seater took pictures (inverted) with a hand held camera flying at 600 Knots. 






*F-104B Reconnaissance at Mach 1*

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## alimobin memon

World Air Forces 2011-2012 - Pictures & Photos on FlightGlobal Airspace
according to flight Global 2011-12 we have 10 MI 35 ?


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## fatman17

*J-21* 

An airframe of what might be the J-21 prototype was being transported from SAC to another facility for static tests. A scale-down model (F-60) of J-21 was first unveiled by the 601 Institute at the first International UAV Innovation Grand Prix held in Beijing in September 2011. It was first rumored in April 2011 that 601/SAC are developing a 4th generation medium multi-role stealth fighter as J-21 which would complement the heavier J-20 (see above). The aircraft has a conventional design featuring twin engines and DSIs similar to both American F-22 and F-35. The prototype could initially be powered by the 8.5t class WS-13A turbofan but later by the new 9.5t class "medium thrust" engine (WS-13B/WS-12?). The aircraft will also feature an internal weapon bay inside its belly housing PL-10, PL-12 or PL-15 AAMs. However due to its relatively small size and lower engine thrust compared to J-20, J-21 might suffer from either a limited internal payload or a shorter combat radius. A full-scale metal model was probably built in early 2011. The first prototype has been under construction since late 2011. First flight was projected to be in September 2012. J-21 (dubbed AMF/Advanced Multi-role Fighter/FC-2?) is expected to be promoted at the international market as a low-cost alternative to American F-35. 

- Last Updated 6/22/12 

_PAF should evalute this platform for its future needs._



alimobin memon said:


> World Air Forces 2011-2012 - Pictures & Photos on FlightGlobal Airspace
> according to flight Global 2011-12 we have 10 MI 35 ?



this listing has many errors.

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## IceCold

fatman17 said:


> _PAF should evalute this platform for its future needs._



I think we should drop the idea of J-10 aka FC-20 and instead should now focus on evaluating this platform for our future requirements.

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## Safriz

IceCold said:


> I think we should drop the idea of J-10 aka FC-20 and instead should now focus on evaluating this platform for our future requirements.


 
FC-20 has been built according to PAF requirements,and its almost complete.
This thig is a wind tunnel model yet?

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## IceCold

Safriz said:


> FC-20 has been built according to PAF requirements,and its almost complete.
> This thig is a wind tunnel model yet?



Whether it is or not, we are not going to have them before 2015.From there onwards, consider the time and money required to raise the squadron numbers and develop the infrastructure for the FC-20. 
I do realize that it is the same time India would be getting Rafale, my question is India can afford the luxury, can we?
Hence my original post that we should drop the idea and instead focus on inducting a 5th generation fighter. To gain the technical know how we need to get involve in the project from the get go even if we don't have much to contribute.


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## Safriz

IceCold said:


> Whether it is or not, we are not going to have them before 2015.From there onwards, consider the time and money required to raise the squadron numbers and develop the infrastructure for the FC-20.
> I do realize that it is the same time India would be getting Rafale, my question is India can afford the luxury, can we?
> Hence my original post that we should drop the idea and instead focus on inducting a 5th generation fighter. To gain the technical know how we need to get involve in the project from the get go even if we don't have much to contribute.



Indian MMRCA and Pakistani FC-20 will fly at the same time,that should do the trick..
This new plane is not matured yet,it hasn't been to the skies yet..
FC-20 is mature and well tested....

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## Imran Khan

again i did it with my mobile 

pakistan navy Hawker 850XP visits Zurich picture form air force monthly june-2012

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## fatman17

Imran Khan said:


> again i did it with my mobile
> 
> pakistan navy Hawker 850XP visits Zurich picture form air force monthly june-2012



looks like AZ is visiting his swiss bank accounts!


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## fatman17

alimobin memon said:


> World Air Forces 2011-2012 - Pictures & Photos on FlightGlobal Airspace
> according to flight Global 2011-12 we have 10 MI 35 ?



*Hind helicopter international sales*

The Mi-24 is in service with Russia and countries of the ex-Soviet Union and has been exported to Afghanistan, Algeria, Angola, Bulgaria, Cuba, Czech Republic, East Germany, Hungary, India, Indonesia, Iraq, the Ivory Coast, Libya, Mozambique, Nicaragua, North Korea, Peru, Poland, Vietnam and South Yemen. Ten Mi-35 helicopters were delivered by Russia to the Czech Republic in 2005/2006 as part of a debt repayment.

"Later versions of the Mi-24P are armed with anti-tank missile systems."In 2005, ten Mi-35M helicopters were ordered by Venezuela. The first batch of four was delivered in July 2006, the second four in December 2006. Indonesia placed an order for six additional Mi-35s in late 2006. Deliveries are due to begin in July 2008. In October 2008, Brazil ordered 12 Mi-35M attack helicopters


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## John Doe

Windjammer said:


> but it was used in that famous "Judy" mission, where the rear seater took pictures (inverted) with a hand held camera flying at 600 Knots.
> 
> *F-104B Reconnaissance at Mach 1*



Firstly , what is a ' Judy ' Mission?
Secondly, allow me to point out that this mission by Flight Lieutenant Aftab Alam with Squadron Leader Middlecoat as cameraman was acknowledged to be essentially a failure and they got NO usable photos of the objective.

Common sense will tell you that a plane moving at Mach 1 (340.29mtrs/sec) will not get any worthwhile photos from a hand held camera. If you have ever tried taking a photo of a flying bird with your hand held camera, you will agree. Now remember this was 1965 , so what was the shutter speed of hand held cameras back then?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

alimobin memon said:


> World Air Forces 2011-2012 - Pictures & Photos on FlightGlobal Airspace
> according to flight Global 2011-12 we have 10 MI 35 ?



Several afghan Hinds defected/captured to Pakistan....most of them were donated to other countries...some got destroyed coz frankly we were stupid.... 1 or 2 are still in salvageable condition... 























I also had one with Pak flag in my hard disk which i lost...

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## hassan1



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## Jango

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Several afghan Hinds defected/captured to Pakistan....most of them were donated to other countries...some got destroyed coz frankly we were stupid.... 1 or 2 are still in salvageable condition...
> 4..



Any person familiar with Russian Helis will tell you that there is nothing salvageable in Russian Helis, let alone these hinds. 

No stupidity here, sorry


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## DESERT FIGHTER

nuclearpak said:


> Any person familiar with Russian Helis will tell you that there is nothing salvageable in Russian Helis, let alone these hinds.
> 
> No stupidity here, sorry



We could have kept them in service instead of donating them to other countries or leaving them in some junkyard?


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## Jango

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> We could have kept them in service instead of donating them to other countries or leaving them in some junkyard?



There was no real benefit in keeping a handful of old Russian Helis, that too with no prior experience on the platform and no or little know how of the machine.


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## Safriz

at the same time we were given cobra gunships by Amreekans....
May be thats why dumped russian tech?


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## Jango

Safriz said:


> at the same time we were given cobra gunships by Amreekans....
> May be thats why dumped russian tech?



Not quite. We are still going strong with the Mi-17's in our inventory. So Russian tech is still there with regards to PAA.

That too with new upgrades on them as well.


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## fatman17

Wednesday, June 27, 2012 


*New PAF spokesperson appointed*


KARACHI: Group Captain Tariq Mahmood was on Tuesday appointed as the new official spokesman for the Pakistan Air Force (PAF).

According to a press release, Mahmood, an MPhil degree holder in Mass Communication, has served as Deputy Director, Media Affairs in the PAF. 

He has replaced Air Commodore Anis Mirza on his retirement. staff report

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## fatman17

Date Posted: 28-Jun-2012 



*Images suggest Shenyang's fifth-generation fighter is on the move*


Robert Foster - Correspondent - London


An airframe that may be a new Shenyang Aircraft Corporation (SAC) fifth-generation fighter, photographed in China in June 2012.

A series of images published on Chinese defence websites show what may be the long-rumoured, but never seen Shenyang Aircraft Corporation (SAC) fifth-generation fighter prototype being carried on a Chinese truck. 

While early images of the airframe showed it on a Shenyang-to-Beijing highway, more recent pictures suggest the aircraft was moved to the China Flight Test Establishment (CFTE) base at Yan Liang in Shaanxi province. 

While analysts have speculated that the airframe is a SAC fifth-generation fighter prototype, which was first publicised in a 1997 US Office of Naval Intelligence report on threats to US naval forces, the manner in which it was transported - roughly covered on a flatbed trailer - suggests it may be a ground-based testbed rather than a prototype envisaged for flight. 


An airframe that may be a new Shenyang Aircraft Corporation (SAC) fifth-generation fighter, photographed in China in June 2012.

The SAC fighter programme is believed to be a privately funded venture that was approved after a SAC fifth-generation prototype featuring canards reportedly lost to the Chengdu Aircraft Corporation's (CAC's) J-20 stealth fighter design, which has been in flight-testing since late 2010. The fact that the SAC fighter is privately funded may explain the lower security surrounding this airframe. 

In September 2011 Shenyang unveiled a radio-controlled model of an "F-60" fighter that it built with the Shenyang University of Aeronautics and Astronautics (SUAA). Like most Chinese technical universities, the SUAA is heavily involved in research to support defence companies and the People's Liberation Army. 


An airframe that may be a new Shenyang Aircraft Corporation (SAC) fifth-generation fighter, photographed in China in June 2012.

The F-60, which may be intended to complement the larger and heavier J-20, is a twin-engine conventional fighter that resembles Lockheed Martin's F-22 and F-35 aircraft and similarly features a planform and internal weapon stores intended to reduce radar cross-section (RCS). In 2005 Chinese sources suggested that CAC was considering a fighter similar to the F-35, which may have prompted a competing design from SAC. 

Chinese commentators also suggest that a stealthy medium-weight fighter design could also form the basis for future naval carrier-based combat aircraft that might complement or succeed the SAC J-15, which is based on the Sukhoi Su-33 and due to enter service onboard the Kuznetsov class carrier, ex- Varyag . 


Shenyang Aircraft Corporation (SAC) unveiled an F-60 fifth-generation prototype in September 2011.

Shenyang Aircraft Corporation (SAC) unveiled an F-60 fifth-generation prototype in September 2011.

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## Windjammer

fatman17 said:


> Wednesday, June 27, 2012
> 
> 
> *New PAF spokesperson appointed*
> 
> 
> KARACHI: Group Captain Tariq Mahmood was on Tuesday appointed as the new official spokesman for the Pakistan Air Force (PAF).
> 
> According to a press release, Mahmood, an MPhil degree holder in Mass Communication, has served as Deputy Director, Media Affairs in the PAF.
> 
> He has replaced Air Commodore Anis Mirza on his retirement. staff report



Had the privilege to speak to him a couple of times, sounds a very professional officer......promised some goodies.

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## turbo charged

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> We could have kept them in service instead of donating them to other countries or leaving them in some junkyard?


 

we should have displayed them at some roundabout or square as war trophy....just like we have installed sabers and f-6's in some cities.....

one of such hind's should have been put in the roundabout just outside the diplomatic enclave in islamabad...

wondering when we will ground f-7's and a-5 fantans...what are we going to do with them and on which square we will install them......

imo 5-10 should be sold to private companies who can give citizens ride in them.


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## fatman17

turbo charged said:


> we should have displayed them at some roundabout or square as war trophy....just like we have installed sabers and f-6's in some cities.....
> 
> one of such hind's should have been put in the roundabout just outside the diplomatic enclave in islamabad...
> 
> wondering when we will ground f-7's and *a-5 fantans*...what are we going to do with them and on which square we will install them......
> 
> imo 5-10 should be sold to private companies who can give citizens ride in them.



stored as strategic reserve (30) along with F-6 (40).


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## turbo charged

fatman17 said:


> stored as strategic reserve (30) along with F-6 (40).



yes sir...anything that can carry a nuke should be reserved as a strategic asset...no matter how old...

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## fatman17

*Four air commodores promoted*


ISLAMABAD, June 28: The government has promoted Air Commodores Anis-Ur-Rehman, Sohail Ahmad Malik, Muhammad Salman and Ijaz Mahmood Malik to the rank of Air Vice Marshal.

Anis-Ur-Rehman was commissioned in Pakistan Air Force&#8217;s GD(P) Branch on March 29, 1982. He has commanded the Fighters&#8217; Squadron, Fighters&#8217; Wing and Operational Air Base. A graduate from the Combat Commanders&#8217; School, Air War College and National Defence University, he is a recipient of Sitara-i-Imtiaz (Military).

Sohail Ahmad was commissioned in PAF&#8217;s Engineering Branch on Jan 15, 1982. He has served as Chief Engineer JF-17 co-production and as managing director at the Aircraft Manufacturing Factory in Kamra.

He has been awarded Sitara-i-Imtiaz (Military) and Tamgha-i-Imtiaz (Military).

Muhammad Salman was commissioned in Air Force&#8217;s Engineering Branch on Sept 24, 1982.

He has commanded the Engineering Wing and has been working as managing director of the Mirage Rebuild Factory at PAC Kamra. He is a recipient of Sitara-i-Imtiaz (Military).

Ijaz Mahmood was commissioned in PAF&#8217;s Air Defence Branch. He has worked on all main air defence systems of the Air Force. He has commanded the Sector Operations Centre and the Airbase. A graduate from the Combat Commanders&#8217; School, Air War College and National Defence University, he is a recipient of Sitara-i-Imtiaz (Military).


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## fatman17

Sunday, July 01, 2012 


*New tech concepts with changing warfare needed: air chief*


Staff Report

KARACHI: The nature of today&#8217;s warfare is constantly changing making it imperative for us to keep abreast of emerging technologies, new age weapons and concepts of technology driven warfare. 

This was stated by Chief of the Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique **** while addressing the 97th officers&#8217; commissioning parade held at Pakistan Naval Academy here on Saturday. Upon his arrival, the chief guest was received by Chief of the Naval Staff Admiral Muhammad Asif Sandila. The CAS said that at present we are facing various maritime challenges and threats like growing menace of piracy and continuous naval build up by the adversary. To meet these challenges, we have to be more proactive and develop insatiable quest for knowledge, he added.

Chief of the Air Staff laid emphasis upon the graduating officers to keep the national interest paramount and never let anything influence their commitment to the national duty bestowed upon them. He extended his felicitation to the commissioning officers upon successful completion of their basic naval training. He said that it was satisfying to note that besides training young officers in the art of maritime warfare, Pakistan Naval Academy was also inculcating in them core military values of integrity, honour and courage. Earlier, in his welcome address, Commandant Pakistan Naval Academy Commodore Muhammad Abid highlighted the salient features of training at Pakistan Naval Academy. He apprised the audience that the commissioning term comprises 82 regular and 22 Short Service Commission (SSC) officers including 3 females and 5 officers from Palestine.

Later, the chief guest gave away prizes to the winners. Midshipman Shehryar received Sword of Honour for best overall performance. The Academy&#8217;s Dirk was awarded to Midshipman Zubair Rashid. Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee Gold Medal went to officer cadet Sohail Nazim and the Commandant Gold Medal was awarded to officer cadet Qurrat ul Ain.

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## fatman17

*J-16*
It was first rumored in August 2010 that SAC is developing a 3.5 generation heavy multi-role fighter bomber (J-16?) based on J-11BS. The aircraft can be viewed as an upgraded version of Su-30MKK (see above) based on its mission and capability, which is comparable to American F-15E. First flight was rumored to have taken place in late 2011. Like Su-30MKK, J-16 features a retractable IFR probe on the port side of the nose to increase its range. As the result the IRST/LR systm was offset from the center to the starboard side. The aircraft also has twin nose wheels due to increase of the TO weight. J-16 has tandem seats with a WSO sitting in the backseat. It features an enhanced fire-control system with additional AG modes. A new ECM system may have been installed as well. Like J-11BS, it is also powered by two WS-10 turbofans. Besides PL-8 and PL-12 AAMs, it could also carry the same precision guided weapons being carried by JH-7A, such as KD-88 ASM and LS-500J LGB. Compared to JH-7A, J-16 is expected to have a more powerful radar (AESA?), a greater weapon load (8t) and a longer range (4,000km). 

- Last Updated 7/3/12


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## fatman17

August issue of AFM features below...


Force Report: The Chinese Dragon spreads its wings
China is strengthening its military forces &#8211; and has the money to do so. Dr Dave Sloggett and AFM&#8217;s Jerry Gunner analyse the People&#8217;s Liberation Army Air Force in an exclusive and extensive feature.

COVER FEATURE US: The Need for SEAD
Dr Dave Sloggett looks at how the US is altering its doctrine in the Pacific Rim due to the evolving Chinese military forces.


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## Najam Khan

Najam Khan said:


> Thankyou sir Fatman, very detailed list....just a question Shahbaz AB comes under 38th Wing? or 39th Wing is formed? Also which SAR sqn is based there? Thanks!
> 
> No. 5 Squadron
> 
> *Based at:	PAF Base Shahbaz
> Raised: 15-Aug-47
> Tactical Role:	Multi - Role
> Affiliation: 38th (TA) Wing - Central Air Command
> Aircraft: LM F-16C/D Fighting Falcon
> Past Aircraft: Tempest Mk II, Hawker Fury, F-86 Sabre, Mirage IIIEP,RP*






fatman17 said:


> thanks for asking. i was not 100% sure of this - it may as well be 39th Wing!
> on the SAR squadron, i'll get back



Sir I have that info now. 
JCB comes under 39th wing. The SAR unit stationed there is No.88 Sqn.

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## turbo charged

did united states ever offered f-4 phantom to Paf?.....and how come this plane is still in service when all other planes that were developed in the same era have been grounded?


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## Windjammer

turbo charged said:


> did united states ever offered f-4 phantom to Paf?.....and how come this plane is still in service when all other planes that were developed in the same era have been grounded?



Never heard the news on that one, however i have had a close look at the Naval version, parked along a Tornado and a Harrier, it remarkably looked much more modern and impressive than the latter day machines. The capacity to carry a heavy and varied weapon loads together with powerful engines, may be one reason it's still flying around, in USAF, the latter day Phantoms were even adopted for the Wild Weasel role.


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## TVVELVEMO$

All US F-4 Phantoms have been withdrawn from active frontline service. It still serves with NATO countries.
I believe last F-4 Wild Weasel has been replaced with Vipers.

Some excess F-4 s from 'Nam were transferred to Bangladesh after it was recognised as a nation.
Pakistan was under military restrictions & sanctions; however 110 Corsair F-7Ds were in play for some time. Carter administration decided not to pursue it after Bhutto could not give assurances regarding Nuclear developments.


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## turbo charged

TVVELVEMO$ said:


> All US F-4 Phantoms have been withdrawn from active frontline service. It still serves with NATO countries.
> I believe last F-4 Wild Weasel has been replaced with Vipers.
> 
> Some excess F-4 s from 'Nam were transferred to Bangladesh after it was recognised as a nation.
> Pakistan was under military restrictions & sanctions; however *110 Corsair F-7Ds* were in play for some time. Carter administration decided not to pursue it after Bhutto could not give assurances regarding Nuclear developments.



good for Pakistan....sooner or later they would have stopped the spares under sanctions...just like what happened to Pakistani f-104s.


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## fatman17

TVVELVEMO$ said:


> All US F-4 Phantoms have been withdrawn from active frontline service. It still serves with NATO countries.
> I believe last F-4 Wild Weasel has been replaced with Vipers.
> 
> Some excess F-4 s from 'Nam were transferred to Bangladesh after it was recognised as a nation.
> Pakistan was under military restrictions & sanctions; however 110 Corsair F-7Ds were in play for some time. Carter administration decided not to pursue it after Bhutto could not give assurances regarding Nuclear developments.



*Some excess F-4 s from 'Nam were transferred to Bangladesh* never!

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## SQ8

TVVELVEMO$ said:


> All US F-4 Phantoms have been withdrawn from active frontline service. It still serves with NATO countries.
> I believe last F-4 Wild Weasel has been replaced with Vipers.
> 
> Some excess F-4 s from 'Nam were transferred to Bangladesh after it was recognised as a nation.
> Pakistan was under military restrictions & sanctions; however 110 Corsair F-7Ds were in play for some time. Carter administration decided not to pursue it after Bhutto could not give assurances regarding Nuclear developments.



That transfer never took place..since Bangladesh for quite a while was supposed to be in the Soviet-India Camp.
The aircraft that were transferred to the new BAF were ex-PAF F-86's and some F-6's.

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## fatman17

bandyal airstrip north of sargodha - does anyone have info on this airstrip?


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## VCheng

fatman17 said:


> bandyal airstrip north of sargodha - does anyone have info on this airstrip?



It is one of several dispersal runways around Sargodha for contingency purposes:




Bandyal Airstrip by vcheng552000, on Flickr


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## Windjammer

fatman17 said:


> bandyal airstrip north of sargodha - does anyone have info on this airstrip?



Not sure about that one sir, but if you check Sarghoda Air Base on google, a new airfield has certainly cropped up in it's lower vicinity.


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## fatman17

VCheng said:


> It is one of several dispersal runways around Sargodha for contingency purposes:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bandyal Airstrip by vcheng552000, on Flickr



if one looks closer, it seems do one can land on that airstrip!


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## fatman17

another abandoned airfield is Dhinger near west of samungli AB. it has many a/c parking pens.


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## VCheng

fatman17 said:


> if one looks closer, it seems do one can land on that airstrip!



Of course, that is the whole point of dispersal runways. There is another old one near Sargodha called Dharema where we used to go and make high speed runs on bikes, back in the day.


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## Najam Khan

fatman17 said:


> if one looks closer, it seems do one can land on that airstrip!



Depends on the conditions of that strip. In 2009, I asked X_man about an Ex-RAF air field in my village (Attock), he had good knowledge than me. It had big holes and v.poor condition..landing there won't be less than suicide


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## regular

Nowadays our motorwayz are built so excellently that we don't even need more airstrips to depend upon for the landing puposes. Our motorwayz can easily serve that purposes in time of need during war scenarios.....

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## Arsalan

regular said:


> Nowadays our motorwayz are built so excellently that we don't even need more airstrips to depend upon for the landing puposes. Our motorwayz can easily serve that purposes in time of need during war scenarios.....



and PAF have practiced this a couple of times as well... 
With Mirage:











*With F-7:*

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## fatman17

Sunday, July 15, 2012 


*Air University awards degrees to 595 students *

Staff Report


ISLAMABAD: The third convocation ceremony of the Air University was held at Jinnah Convention Centre, Islamabad, on Saturday. Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique **** was the chief guest. Bachelor and master degrees of various educational disciplines in engineering and administration programmes were conferred on 595 students, while 26 gold and 19 silver medals were awarded to the positionholders.

Addressing the ceremony, the air chief said, &#8220;The extension of Air University&#8217;s programmes from the disciplines of engineering to administrative sciences, basic and applied sciences as well as social sciences is a clear manifestation of its keenness to serve the nation through contributions in diverse fields of education. With its focus on discipline and ethics, Air University is providing an atmosphere that is conducive for learning. I am very happy to note that this congenial environment of the university is promoting quality education and effective citizenship.&#8221;

Congratulating the graduating students, their parents and the university faculty, the chief guest said that it is their hard work that has made &#8220;this day of rewards possible and has led the university in making exponential progress as an academic institution&#8221;.

Earlier, Air University Vice Chancellor Dr Ijaz Ahmad Malik in his welcome address said that the university has always laid emphasis on giving quality education, research and development, and character building of its students. He thanked the Higher Education Commission and the Pakistan Air Force for their continual support for the school. Higher Education Commission Chairman Dr Javaid R Laghari, Air University chancellor, heads of various educational institutions, senior civil and military officers and parents of the graduating students attended the function.

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## Saquib

Just a thought - PAF pilots are they given nicknames when they qualify as a pilot or until they join a squadron?


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## fatman17

Saquib said:


> Just a thought - PAF pilots are they given nicknames when they qualify as a pilot or until they join a squadron?



i think it is given when they join a sqdn and they also must be 'good' - topgun type!

also there are 'nicknames' and 'callsigns'. i dont know what PAF culture is

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## fatman17

*Exercise Report: Anatolian Eagle 2012/2
Mick Balter was in Turkey for the only Anatolian Eagle of 2012 involving international participation*

AFM September issue has a detailed report.


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## MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n

although this is not related to this thread but still can anybody informed here shed some light on the below :-

may be this question has already been asked &/or answered earlier but i just wanna know that ,

is there any aircraft in P.a.f. like the us. f-18 growler and\or wild weasel or any electronic warfare aircraft ??
or any s.e.a.d.s or d.e.a.d.s squadron serving in P.a.f. ?


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## krash

MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n;3270454 said:


> although this is not related to this thread but still can anybody informed here shed some light on the below :-
> 
> may be this question has already been asked &/or answered earlier but i just wanna know that ,
> 
> is there any aircraft in P.a.f. like the us. f-18 growler and\or wild weasel or any electronic warfare aircraft ??
> or any s.e.a.d.s or d.e.a.d.s squadron serving in P.a.f. ?



Yes we do. The No.24 Squadron, The Blinders, is a dedicated electronic warfare squadron of the PAF. They operate the Dassault Falcon F20s. Before the Falcon F20 they operated the RB-57F Canberra. The three F20s in our inventory are named Iqbal, Lodhi and Mir. Mir was added in 2008 after Iqbal and Lodhi were overhauled in France in 2007.







As per my knowledge we do not have a dedicated squadron for SEADS but we do have a 100 of the MAR-1 SEAD anti-radiation missiles (reportedly already integrated on the JF-17) which we recently acquired from Brazil. I've also read that we acquired some HARM missiles in the early 90s but because of the sanctions fiasco later on did not get our Vipers upgraded to carry them. Nabil or Taimi might be able to better explain this.

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## Windjammer

Isn't the Block-52 D kitted out for these missions, the raised spine is supposed to be filled with all the hi-tech gadgets.


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## krash

It still doesn't make them dedicated EW platforms and hence finds them wanting in EW performance unlike the Growler or the Prowler. This is where the Falcons come in.


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## ANG

Windjammer said:


> Isn't the Block-52 D kitted out for these missions, the raised spine is supposed to be filled with all the hi-tech gadgets.


 
Hi, the raised spline in the newer 2-seat F-16 version in more to offset the space that the backseat takes up, and where electronics and/or fuel would have been in the single seat version.

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## Windjammer

Look out for the forthcoming issue of Air International, due out on 23rd August.
I have been informed some exclusive images will be released in an Alan Warnes article on the PAF.

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## SBD-3

Windjammer said:


> Isn't the Block-52 D kitted out for these missions, the raised spine is supposed to be filled with all the hi-tech gadgets.


I came across two explainations 
1-A book on IdAF Sufa's said that Suf'as contained WW avionics in the spine. (Suf'a in picture was also a dual seater)
2-the spine containes replaced electronics due to the addition of second seat.


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## Windjammer

hasnain0099 said:


> I came across two explainations
> 1-A book on IdAF Sufa's said that Suf'as contained WW avionics in the spine. (Suf'a in picture was also a dual seater)
> 2-the spine containes replaced electronics due to the addition of second seat.



This is exactly what i read somewhere that the spine in the "D" model is packed with EXTRA avionics, which makes sense since one wonders then what happened to the avionics in the "B" version since it has a second seat and no raised spine. !!


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## fatman17

Tuesday, August 07, 2012 


*President confers Nishan-e-Imtiaz on Air Chief Marshal Tahir *****


ISLAMABAD: President Asif Ali Zardari on Monday conferred Nishan-e-Imtiaz (Military) on Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique **** during a special investiture ceremony held at the Presidency.

The citation read on the occasion said that the award was being conferred in recognition of the air chief&#8217;s long meritorious services. **** has also been decorated with Hilal-i-Imtiaz (Military), Sitara-i-Imtiaz (Military) and Tamgha-i-Basalat for his meritorious and dedicated services. Prime Minister Raja Pervez Ashraf, Defence Minister Syed Naveed Qamar, Finance Minister Dr Abdul Hafeez Sheikh, Information Minister Qamar Zaman Kaira, National Regulations and Services Minister Dr Firdaus Ashiq Awan, Secretary General M Salman Faruqui, Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee General Khalid Shameem Wynne, Chief of Army Staff General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani, federal secretaries, officers of Pakistan Air Force and a few other dignitaries were present on the occasion. app


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## fatman17

Wednesday, August 15, 2012 


*PAF celebrates Independence Day*

KARACHI: Pakistan Air Force (PAF) joined hands with the nation to celebrate the 66th Independence Day of the country with due fervour and dignity.

The day commenced with special &#8216;Dua&#8217; in mosques of PAF all over the country after Fajr prayers. Officers, junior commissioned officers, airmen and the civilian staff of PAF, later assembled at their respective bases, units and headquarters to sing national anthem. The flag hoisting ceremony was held at HQ Southern Air Command, PAF. Air Vice Marshal Muhammad Iqbal, Air Officer Commanding HQ Southern Air Command, PAF hoisted the national flag and read out the message of the day from Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force. pr


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## Windjammer

*
Came across this nice picture of PAF Base Masroor, thought i share it with you.*

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## fatman17

Windjammer said:


> Look out for the forthcoming issue of Air International, due out on 23rd August.
> I have been informed some exclusive images will be released in an Alan Warnes article on the PAF.



jammer did u obtain this issue?


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## Windjammer

fatman17 said:


> jammer did u obtain this issue?



Sir, there were some clearance issues with the Air HQ, regarding some of the contents (images) supplementing the article.
Finally the Air International editor has informed me that the matter has been resolved and the article along with the exclusive images would appear in the edition that's due to come out towards the end of October.
It should be worth the wait. !!

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## fatman17

Windjammer said:


> Sir, there were some clearance issues with the Air HQ, regarding some of the contents (images) supplementing the article.
> Finally the Air International editor has informed me that the matter has been resolved and the article along with the exclusive images would appear in the edition that's due to come out towards the end of October.
> It should be worth the wait. !!



ok great - i will book my copy


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## fatman17

Wednesday, September 19, 2012 


*PAF begins relief work in flood-affected areas*


The Pakistan Air Force has actively started relief operations for the flood victims of Jacobabad, Sukkur and Rajanpur areas. Two thousand packages, containing essential food items and clean drinking water, have been dispatched and distributed to the flood affectees of these areas. A PAF statement stated that a crisis control cell has been established at Air Headquarters, Islamabad, for centralised control of the rescue and relief activities. staff report

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## fatman17

*Analysis: Shenyang's 'Shen Fei' breaks cover*


Author:Robert Hewson, London


Key Points

*

China's Shenyang Aircraft Corporation has unveiled a new fighter design called the Shen Fei (Falcon Eagle)
*

An 'F-35-sized F-22', the Shen Fei is possibly a company backed project directed at the export market or future PLA Navy carrier operations

China's Shenyang Aircraft Corporation (SAC) has rolled out a prototype airframe of a new advanced fighter design, named the Shen Fei (Falcon Eagle) and apparently designated J-31.

The aircraft emerged from the main SAC factory site over the weekend of 15-16 September, just as US Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta arrived in China for an official visit. This may not be a coincidence: the first appearance in January 2011 of Chengdu's J-20 demonstrator was timed to upstage a visit by Panetta's predecessor, Robert Gates.

However, the Shen Fei's unveiling was rather different to that of the J-20 and suggests that the programme is not a fully state-sponsored effort for the People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF).

The Shen Fei name is carried prominently on the aircraft's tail alongside a large bird of prey logo. The serial '31001' is painted in bold white digits on the nose and from this it is assumed the designation is J-31 (following the precedent of the J-20). Unlike the J-20, the J-31 does not have any form of official PLAAF marking. Brightly painted, its somewhat cartoonish appearance supports speculation that the aircraft is a company backed project directed at the export market.

As first seen, the Shen Fei prototype (or mock up) was towed around the Shenyang factory facility but was not powered up or connected to ground power. Note the open doors for the ventral weapons bays.1454310As first seen, the Shen Fei prototype (or mock up) was towed around the Shenyang factory facility but was not powered up or connected to ground power. Note the open doors for the ventral weapons bays. (Chinese internet)

Best described as an 'F-35-sized F-22', the Shen Fei bears a startling appearance to the two Lockheed Martin aircraft and apparently confirms persistent reports that Chinese espionage accessed many of the F-22's and F-35's classified design details. The twin-tailed, twin-engined aircraft has two ventral weapons bays sized to carry two PL-12 (SD-10) air-to-air missiles in each bay. Seemingly well-informed computer generated images (CGI) on the Chinese internet show the aircraft with eight additional underwing hardpoints.

Initial analysis suggests 31001 is fitted with two Russian-built Klimov RD-93 turbofans, which are non-thrust-vectoring engines in the 19,000-lb thrust class. While China has permission to re-export the RD-93, the continued use of Russian engines is China's greatest failing when it comes to developing its indigenous military aerospace industry.

Several quirks of the Shen Fei remain unexplained. The engines on 31001 do not seem to be properly installed: the pronounced gap between them and the surrounding structure suggests it is not a flight-worthy configuration. The aircraft has a twin-wheel nose gear, suggesting that it might be intended for shipboard use. No arrestor hook can been seen in photographs of the aircraft to date, but it appears to have provision for one and several detailed CGI illustrations show the Shen Fei in landing configuration with a hook deployed.

The aircraft has clearly been designed for a low radar signature (RCS), at least in the front sector. However, it has a two-piece cockpit - a structural feature that increases frontal RCS. It is assumed that the Shen Fei will be equipped with an active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, but its upswept nose and relatively small radome area reduces the size - and therefore the performance - of any AESA antenna that will be fitted.

Unlike the J-20, the Shen Fei's size and shape (or existence) is not a major surprise. Shenyang has long been known to be working on its own next-generation fighter designs in parallel with Chengdu's efforts. More than a year ago Western intelligence sources stated that a "Chinese F-35" was under development at Shenyang and in February a very reliable Chinese source predicted that the new aircraft would fly in September (rather undermining the Panetta conspiracy theory).

In late June a partially dismantled Shen Fei airframe was driven in a highly visible, almost processional, road convoy from Shenyang to the China Flight Test Establishment (CFTE) at Xian-Yanglian. Widely photographed and filmed throughout its journey, it was assessed to be a static test airframe for an as-yet unidentified aircraft. Although one wing and other parts of the structure were removed, the airframe was wrapped in a tight-fitting camouflaged cover that did little to conceal what was underneath. The convoy was driven in daylight along motorways and local roads, and parked in urban areas. It was accompanied by a police escort broadcasting demands that onlookers should not take photos - orders that were happily ignored by the hundreds if not thousands of people who stopped to watch. China's 'netizens' quickly dubbed the mysterious item 'Zongzi Ji', the rice dumpling aircraft, because its camouflaged cover resembled the green wrapper of this traditional Chinese treat.
The public appearance of the Shen Fei has generated a guarded and somewhat sceptical reaction. As noted, the aircraft is not thought to be an official PLA programme, but rather a speculative design from Shenyang aimed at either the export market or a notional, future Chinese requirement - such as a shipboard fighter. Shenyang leads China's current carrier fighter programme - the J-15 - but any adoption of the J-31 as a successor to this would be a long-term and highly speculative venture. The J-31 could be pitched as part of a potential 'high-low' mix with the J-20 but so far the aircraft, and its unveiling, has not received any of the very visible official support given to the J-20 since its debut in 2011.


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## khanasifm

Just because it has a tail hook does not means its for naval operations at seas. F16 has tail hook for land operations.

Google Image Result for http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2069/2368631132_27de8f7b0d.jpg


An 'F-35-sized F-22', the Shen Fei is possibly a company backed project directed at the export market or* future PLA Navy carrier operations*

However, the Shen Fei's unveiling was rather different to that of the J-20 and suggests that the programme is not a fully state-sponsored effort for the People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF).

The Shen Fei name is carried prominently on the aircraft's tail alongside a large bird of prey logo. The serial '31001' is painted in bold white digits on the nose and from this it is assumed the designation is J-31 (following the precedent of the J-20). Unlike the J-20, the J-31 does not have any form of official PLAAF marking. Brightly painted, its somewhat cartoonish appearance supports speculation that the aircraft is a company backed project directed at the export market.



Best described as an 'F-35-sized F-22', the Shen Fei bears a startling appearance to the two Lockheed Martin aircraft and apparently confirms persistent reports that Chinese espionage accessed many of the F-22's and F-35's classified design details. The twin-tailed, twin-engined aircraft has two ventral weapons bays sized to carry two PL-12 (SD-10) air-to-air missiles in each bay. Seemingly well-informed computer generated images (CGI) on the Chinese internet show the aircraft with eight additional underwing hardpoints.

Initial analysis suggests 31001 is fitted with two Russian-built Klimov RD-93 turbofans, which are non-thrust-vectoring engines in the 19,000-lb thrust class. While China has permission to re-export the RD-93, the continued use of Russian engines is China's greatest failing when it comes to developing its indigenous military aerospace industry.

Several quirks of the Shen Fei remain unexplained. The engines on 31001 do not seem to be properly installed: the pronounced gap between them and the surrounding structure suggests it is not a flight-worthy configuration. The aircraft has a twin-wheel nose gear, suggesting that it might be intended for shipboard use. *No arrestor hook can been seen in photographs of the aircraft to date, but it appears to have provision for one and several detailed CGI illustrations show the Shen Fei in landing configuration with a hook deployed.*


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## fatman17

*A Hero&#8217;s Home*


AFM&#8217;s Alan Warnes continues the series of articles from his recent visit to Pakistan with a visit to Islamabad&#8217;s local base.



KAMRA-MINHAS Air Base situated approximately 40 miles (65kms) south-west of Islamabad &#8211; is the closest fighter base to Pakistan&#8217;s capital and as such it has to remain at a high state of readiness.

The fighter base is home to the 33rd Tactical Wing which has under its control two operational fighter squadrons &#8211; 14 Sqn &#8216;Tail Choppers&#8217; flying Chengdu F-7Ps and 25 Tactical Attack Sqn &#8216;Eagles&#8217; flying Dassault Mirage 5EFs as well as a helicopter search- and- rescue unit &#8211; 87 Sqn operating Alouette IIIs. 

On the other side of the runway is the massive Pakistan Aerospace Complex (Kamra) which is responsible for the depot level maintenance of many PAF aircraft.

Today, responsibility for the 33rd Tactical Wings falls on the shoulders of former F-6, F-7 and F-16 pilot, Air Commodore Jamshad Khan who has accumulated some 3,000 flying hours during his career and has been the Base Commander at Kamra-Minhas since July 2006. Ensuring the base is prepared for the responsibilities delegated to it by the PAF headquarters is the Base Commander&#8217;s task, as is ensuring his units are trained to the highest level, should the unthinkable ever happen and Pakistan goes to war.

Among the many achievements in his PAF career, Air Cdr Jamshad was the Officer Commanding of Minhas-based 14 Sqn during 1997-98 and was a key figure in the F-7 Grifo radar testing that took place at Chengdu, China during 1999.

One notable name in the list of Kamra-Minhas Base Commanders is Wg Cdr Kaleem Saadat who rose to become Air Chief Marshal, Commander in Chief of the PAF between 2003-06.

Sadly, a former Minhas Base Commander, Air Cdr Hameed Qadri, an F-16 ace, was killed on July 22, 2002, when an F-7P he was flying, crashed on the last day of his command. More than 16 years earlier, on May 17, 1986, Sqn Leader Hameed Qadri had become the first F-16 PAF pilot to shoot down an enemy aircraft, when he destroyed an Afghan Air Force Su-22, with an AIM-9L Sidewinder, after it had flown into Pakistan airspace.

Reporting directly to the Base Commander is Group Captain Mushtaq, the Officer Commanding (OC) Flying, another veteran pilot who achieved some 3,000 flying hours, mainly on F-6s and Mirages. He is responsible for all flying operations at the base, and flight safety is high among his priorities. A few weeks before the Editor visited, an F-7P crashed on approach to the base due to engine problems.

Fortunately, the pilot, Sqn Ldr Imran, received only minor injuries after he ejected, although he was still in a lot of discomfort when I met him. The Base Supervisors will take all accidents personally and will go through every detail to see whether it could have been avoided. He is also responsible for the scheduling of all flights from the base and supervises the flying activity for the day.

A Maintenance Squadron looks after the level 2 needs of all three types of aircraft, while the level 3 requirements see the based Mirages and F-7s being sent across to the other side of the runway to PAC.

Defending the base is an Army unit, the 17 Defense Security Group Company (DSGC) &#8216;Pasban&#8217;, which is responsible for protecting the base and other strategic locations. The author was privileged to share lunch with them along with the Base Commander during Pakistan's National Armed Forces Day on March 23.

Eagles
Having been formed at Mianwali on August 27, 1986, 25 Sqn &#8216;Eagles&#8217; is one of the youngest squadrons in the PAF. The unit flew Shenyang F-6s until December 1995. On January 25, 1996 the squadron commenced operations at Minhas to evaluate the ex-Royal Australian Air Force Mirage IIIEAs that had been upgraded at PAC Kamra to the ROSE (Retrofit of Strike Element) &#8211; I variant.

These aircraft were eventually passed on to 7 Sqn at Masroor and the Combat Commanders Sqn at Sargodha-Mushaf.
In March 1997, the unit was re-designated the 25 Tactical Attack Squadron and by September 1998 had relinquished its ROSE I Mirages for the Mirage 5EF ROSE II jets. These ex-French Air Force Mirages were part of Pakistan&#8217;s Blue Flash 6 program that comprised some 39 aircraft and relies on a Forward Looking Infra-Red (FLIR) system rather than radar.

Night attack is 25 Sqn&#8217;s main role. The current Officer Commanding is Wg Cdr Randawa.

Tail Choppers
No 14 Sqn was formed on November 1, 1948 and named the Shaheens (Martyrs) but ever since the 1965 India-Pakistan War the unit has become more commonly as the &#8216;Tail Choppers&#8217;. The name was derived from the unit&#8217;s attack on Kalaikunda Air Force Station in India on September 7, 1965, when several 14 Sqn F-86 Sabres operating from Dacca and Jessore struck several Canberras lined up on the ramp. During the strafing/bombing runs the tails of the aircraft were all chopped off and the name &#8216;Tail Choppers&#8217; was born. The war, which lasted for 17 days, between September 6 and 23, 1965, also saw 14 Sqn attack Bagdogra on September 10 and Barrackpur four days later.

During the 1971 war with India, the &#8216;Tail Choppers&#8217; found themselves trying to defend their Dacca air base in eastern Pakistan (now Bangladesh) against overriding odds. It stood ground against attacks from ten IAF squadrons of MiG-21s, Su-7s, Gnats and Hunters for 15 days after the base&#8217;s runway was put out of action, but finally succumbed to the far superior numbers. The traditions of the PAF, just like any air force, are built on such heroism.

In July 1972 the squadron was reformed with F-6s that flew with the unit until September 1986 when it took delivery of the F-16A/B. No 14 Sqn was one of three operational squadrons to fly the F-16 (the other two are 9 and 11 Sqn at Sargodha-Mushaf).
During the seven years the &#8216;Tail Choppers&#8217; flew F-16s there were some remarkable times owing to Afghan Air Force fighters violating Pakistani airspace.

This included three 14 Sqn pilots shooting down two Su-22 Fitters and a Su-25 Frogfoot. The Su-25 pilot was Colonel Alexander Rutskoi, who went on to become the Russian Deputy President while one of the Su-22s was flown by Lt Abdul Hashmi of the 2 Fighter Sqn at Bagram.

Sanctions imposed on Pakistan in 1989 due to nuclear testing started to have a detrimental effect on F-16 serviceability by 1993, which led to 14 Sqn relinquishing their F-16s and the PAF consolidating the F-16 fleet at Sargodha with 9 and 11 Sqn.
This led to the unit re-equipping with the F-7P on October 2, 1993.

Along with the co-located 25 Sqn and 11 Sqn&#8217;s F-16s from Sargodha, the unit was deployed to a forward operating base during 1999, when India and Pakistan were on the brink of war owing to the Kargil conflict in the Himalayas.

In 2002, when Pakistan and India were once again close to conflict, 14 Sqn and 25 Sqn found themselves on a war footing. During Operation Sentinel, the name the PAF gave to this tense period, the two squadrons were deployed to their forward operating base between December 2001 and November 2002.

Over 130 F-7Ps have been delivered to the FAP and 14 Sqn is one of five units flying the Chinese built air defense fighter today &#8211; their aircraft are from the Handshake 2 and 4 batch that were ordered in 1989 and 1993 respectively. The aircraft&#8217;s main weapon is the AIM-9L Sidewinder and the unit makes regular deployments to Skardu in the Himalayas where operations can often occur in the snow. At the time of the author&#8217;s visit, the Officer Commanding of 14 Sqn was Wg Cdr Mohammed Asif who had flown F-7Ps for most of his career. In June he was promoted to Group Captain and posted to the PAF Air Warfare Centre at Faisal. While his flying days are behind him he looks forward to taking over a Wing one day and perhaps getting back into the cockpit of a fighter again.

No 14 Sqn F-16 kills.
Date&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;. Pilot&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.. Missile&#8230;&#8230; Aircraft&#8230;.. Location
Apr 16,1987.. F/L Badr-ul-Islam.. AIM-9L&#8230;.. Su-22&#8230;&#8230;&#8230; Miranshah
Aug 4, 1988&#8230; S/L Athar Bukhari.. AIM-9L&#8230;.. Su-25&#8230;&#8230;&#8230; Parachinar
Nov 3, 1988.. F/L Khalid Mahmood. AIM-9L.. Su-22&#8230;&#8230;.. Parachinar

Minhas &#8211; Bravery
On the morning of Friday, August 20 &#8211; during the 1971 India-Pakistan War &#8211; trainee Pilot Officer Rashid Minhas, 20, was in the front seat of jet trainer, taxiing out for take-off. An instructor pilot from the same unit forced his way into the rear cockpit, seized control of the aircraft and once it had taken off headed the aircraft towards India.

With just 40 miles of Pakistan territory remaining, Minhas had only one course open to him to prevent his aircraft from entering India. Without hesitation and living up to the highest traditions of the Pakistan Air Force, Rashid Minhas tried to regain control of his aircraft, but finding this impossible in the face of the superior skill and experience of his instructor, forced the aircraft to crash at a point 32 miles from the Indian border. In doing so, Pilot Officer Rashid Minhas deliberately made the supreme sacrifice for the honor of Pakistan and the service to which he belonged. For this act of heroism above and beyond the call of duty, the President of Pakistan awarded Nishan-i-Haider to Pilot Officer Rashid Minhas.

AFM

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## fatman17

*Exercise HIGH MARK 2010*

Fighters Galore!

AFM&#8217;s Alan Warnes spent two weeks in Pakistan during April following Exercise High Mark 2010 and captured many of the aircraft in action.


EXERCISE HIGH Mark 2010 is the Pakistan Air Force&#8217;s (PAF's) biggest exercise and usually occurs every five years, in a bid to test its capabilities, professional skills and combat readiness. Since the last one took place in 2005 there have been a lot of additions to the PAF&#8217;s inventory, including the JF-17 Thunder, Saab 2000 Erieye Airborne Early Warning and Control (AEW&C), Il-78 air-to-air tanker, new Mirage roles, unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) as well as new sophisticated precision-guided munitions like Stand-Off Weapons and new ground systems, which would include command and control. The PAF Chief of Air Staff, ACM Rao Qamar Suleman, wanted to test everything, this time over 60 days.

It also provided all three of Pakistan&#8217;s services a chance to work together, as the PAF supports both the Army and the Navy, so the last 30 days of High Mark 2010 saw the exercise dovetail into the Army&#8217;s Azm-e-Nau III maneuvers.

Recent operations with the Army in Swat and Waziristan have brought with them lessons that have to be learned such as ops in a diverse terrain, with time sensitive targeting and the importance of reduced or no collateral damage. At the same time the PAF had to support the Army&#8217;s front-line operations, clearing the way for them.

The exercise placed a major effort on the PAF&#8217;s Intelligence Surveillance and Recce assets as well as other IT roles at all levels. There was also the need for the PAF to play offensive and defensive roles, operating under the threat of electronic warfare and electronic countermeasure tactics. However, it is meant to test everyone, not just aviators, so all trades whether they are caterers, logistics, admin personnel and so on would be judged on their ability to cope in wartime conditions. 

More than 100 judges were sent around the facilities observing and reporting on how people and the planes coped. Testing its resolve has never been as important to the Pakistan military as it is now.

With insurgents in the west threatening Pakistan&#8217;s stability and its eastern neighbor adopting a &#8216;post-Mumbai 2008 attacks&#8217; strategy, the military aims to ensure that India could not succeed in carrying out surgical strikes on important strategic locations, such as its nuclear assets or its command and control centers. While India has far more aircraft, it isn&#8217;t all about numbers &#8211; preparation and tactics are more valuable. The PAF has always lived with inferior numbers of platforms, but it is the way you train your people that really counts.



Notes;
&#8226;	JF-17, wearing experimental marks similar to the F-16, participated in the exercise and operated from Minhas and Rafiqui during High Mark. As part of its operational evaluation four jets deployed to RafiquI for out-of-area ops.
&#8226;	No 23 Sqn, originally from Samungli near Quetta operated out of Mirpur Khas close to the Indian border. It&#8217;s a very remote base in the desert, which provides personnel with many challenges because of its limited living conditions. The nearest shop is 25 miles away, so everything has to be brought in. Here a FT-7PG, a dual seat version of the newer F-7PG derivative, flew with AIM-9 Sidewinders.
&#8226;	9 Sqn 'Griffins' F-16A operated from Mushaf using their afterburner and at least four 500 Ib Mk 82 bombs &#8211; the F-16 provides the PAF with a great bomb truck.
&#8226;	Another busy unit was No 14 Sqn &#8216;Tail Choppers&#8217;. It deployed several F-7Ps to Chaklala and then Skardu in the Himalayas. In April, conditions in Skardu can be quite difficult with regular rain, low clouds as well as thunderstorms &#8211; testing conditions for testing times. 
&#8226;	The sole remaining A-5III unit, 16 Sqn, deployed to Murid FOB for the latter stages of High Mark, as the PAF and the Army carried out joint ops. The A-5 will continue to provide a close air support role to the Army until it retires in late 2011.
&#8226;	The Combat Commanders&#8217; School F-7P is likely to have been acting as an aggressor during the exercise. Most of the unit was deployed forward.
&#8226;	Mirage IVPA2/3s of 8 Sqn &#8216;Haiders&#8217; were deployed to Masroor AB. This unit specializes in anti-shipping for which it comes armed with the lethal Exocet missile. the Mirages taking on Pak Navy ships as &#8216;Strikers&#8217; while other aircraft would have tried to protect them, whilst others would try to stop them.
&#8226;	Mirage IIIEL is a former Lebanese Air Force aircraft that was put into service after being overhauled by PAC Kamra in 2004. It flies with 22 Sqn, the Mirage Operational Conversion Unit operated from Masroor as part of a massive package.
&#8226;	The first PAF F-16B, 82601, flown by 11 Sqn, flew from Mushaf.
&#8226;	There was certainly no rest at night for engineers and technicians. Many aircraft were worked on to ensure their readiness for the first morning mission &#8211; just as the sun comes up.
&#8226;	Mirage VDD of 7 Sqn are former Libyan Air Force aircraft &#8211; one of around 70 that were acquired by the PAF, although only around ten were put into service. Not bad for an aircraft had spent a decade or so in the Libyan Desert and is a testimony to the PAF engineers.
&#8226;	While the F-7P provides the PAF with an able air defender, the Mirage can fulfill a variety of air to ground roles as well as air defense roles. The basics are taught by the CCS Mirage unit.
&#8226;	7 Sqn &#8216;Bandits&#8217; Mirage IIIEAs visited Masroor during such a busy period was quite an amazing experience. There were aircraft taxiing down the runway for take-off, jets taking off, jets landing while others taxied from the runway. The Air Traffic Control tower acted as one big roundabout!

AFM

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## fatman17

Friday, September 28, 2012 


*Air chief emphasises upon training in PAF*


ISLAMABAD: Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique stressed upon the need for operational training to meet the future challenges. He was speaking at the graduation ceremony of 42nd Combat Commanders&#8217; Course that was held at Combat Commanders&#8217; School, PAF Base Mushaf (Sargodha) where he was the chief guest. 

In his address, the air chief said, &#8220;The nature of aerial warfare continues to rise in complexity and magnitude. The application of air power at different levels and modes could stretch our limited resources to the maximum and test our resolve. He said that our force structuring and operational training must continue to evolve progressively to meet the future challenges&#8221;. In quest of making PAF &#8220;second to none&#8221;, the Air Staff has already undertaken a major appraisal of its assets, he said. 

The chief guest awarded certificates and trophies to graduating officers who underwent a highly professional service course. 

The Chief of the Air Staff trophy for overall best performance in the course was awarded to Squadron Leader Azkaarul Husnain while Air Officer Commanding Trophy for the best performance in Air Defence Course was awarded to Squadron Leader Muhammad Shakeel. Principal staff officers and other officials of Pakistan Air Force attended the ceremony. pr


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## Najam Khan

Ribbons of Pakistani forces.

Hi-res version:

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## Windjammer

Just an update on the exclusive PAF article, which has been pending for several months now due to some clearance issues, I have now received confirmation from Alan Warnes that it will be published in December issue of Air International which should come out towards the end of next month.....I have been told the classified images are very exclusive.


> Alan Warnes via srs.bis7.eu.blackberry.com
> Oct 8 (1 day ago)
> 
> to me
> It will appear in issue coming out in late November. Alan
> Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device.

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## Windjammer



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## Windjammer



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## Windjammer

*

Officers of 127GD(P) , 83AD , 9A&SD and under trainee of 73EC. All reported together to PAF Academy Risalpur*.

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## hassan1



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## Windjammer

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
*Standing and serving alongside their male colleagues. 
*

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## fatman17

*Rescue 1122 performance impresses PAF team*

By: Our Staff Reporter | October 24, 2012




RAWALPINDI - A delegation of Staff of Directorate of Air Traffic Services, Air Headquarters, visited Rescue 1122 Rawalpindi to observe emergency management system in Pakistan on Tuesday.

District Emergency Officer (DEO) Rescue 1122 Dr Abdur Rahman briefed the delegation, led by Squadron Leader Maria Saeed, about the structure and working of PES and efforts of founder Director General Dr Rizwan Naseer for establishment of the emergency management system in Pakistan.

Similarly, Deeba Shahnaz Akhter, the spokesperson, briefed the delegation through documentary, presentation and working of control room. The rescuers also demonstrated about life-saving equipment in ambulance and mock exercise of firefighting.

She told to the staff that Rescue 1122 Rawalpindi has responded to 50,271 emergency calls since it establishment in the district and rescued 54,996 helpless victims of emergencies in which 22,998 were road traffic accidents, 3,070 were fire incidents, 55 building collapse incidents, 26 were bomb blast incident, 833 were crime incidents, 104 were drowning case, 216 were special rescue operation (animal rescue) and 22,969 medical emergencies were included.

Deeba added that Rescue 1122 has the credit of holding two consecutive national youth awards and martyrs of Ghakhar Plaza disaster set an example in the line of duty. The martyrs&#8217; family had been presented National Gallantry Awards from Government of Pakistan. 

Furthermore Rescue 1122 rescued 155,7948 victims of different emergencies in all over Punjab and that Rescue 1122 has won Azme-e-Alishan Award 2011. Moreover, DG had also been awarded with Sitar-e-Imtiaz by the government for his countless efforts an historic initiative forr establishment of emergency management system in Pakistan. Squadron Leader Maria Saeed, speaking on the occasion, said that Rescue 1122 was very well organised institute. She said that it was good to see such an efficient organisation in civil setup. She hoped to have a fruitful cooperation between Pakistan Air Force and Rescue 1122.

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## Windjammer

*A message from the Directorate of Flight Safety PAF.*

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## fatman17

Windjammer said:


> *A message from the Directorate of Flight Safety PAF.*



is anybody going to pay heed?


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## Windjammer

Passing out parade of Aero Apprentices at PAF Base, Korangi Creek.
Check out the pattern on one of the Mirages in the back ground.

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## Luftwaffe

Windjammer said:


> Passing out parade of Aero Apprentices at PAF Base, Korangi Creek.
> Check out the pattern on one of the Mirages in the back ground.



What's with that pattern...


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## VCheng

Luftwaffe said:


> What's with that pattern...



The pattern is a stylized representation of the internal structure of the airframe.

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## fatman17

Windjammer said:


> Passing out parade of Aero Apprentices at PAF Base, Korangi Creek.
> Check out the pattern on one of the Mirages in the back ground.



paint-job training for AF apprentices!


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## Najam Khan

Luftwaffe said:


> What's with that pattern...



He is referring to the paint scheme on Mirage-VPA in background; showing anatomy of its fuselage and tail section.

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## fatman17

Najam Khan said:


> He is referring to the paint scheme on Mirage-VPA in background; showing anatomy of its fuselage and tail section.



airframe recognition training

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## SQ8

fatman17 said:


> is anybody going to pay heed?



Who cares, unless you have the people of this country pay a penalty.. like shoot them if they do this.
they wont act.
The British knew how to govern us..and blowing from the cannon had a point.
DO NOT SPARE THE ROD WHEN IT COMES TO OUR PEOPLE.

These civil requests do little good.


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## fatman17

Saturday, October 27, 2012

End of an era -- Nanchang ends its production of Q-5 ground-attack aircraft after 44 years. 

After extending the production line to cover a limited run on the J model twin-seater trainer, Nanchang finally closes its Q-5 offerings for good. 


×îºóÒ»¼ÜÇ¿5½»¸¶²¿¶Ó ½áÊø44ÄêÉú²úÀúÊ·_ÍøÒ×¾üÊÂ



Saturday, January 29, 2011

Q-5J twin-seater trainer 


Q-5J (30093 and 30094) twin-seater trainer of the 82nd Attack Regiment, 28th Attack Division, post for photo after replacing the old JJ-6 that has been in service for more than 30 years. In addition to a new fleet of "modern" fighters, the PLAAF is also procuring more specialized training assets -- a trend that is ignored by some of the PLA watchers out there.

PAF has put to storage 38 examples of the A-5III (export version of the Q-5)


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## Windjammer

Royal Malaysian Air Force Trainees at PAF Academy Risalpur.

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## hassan1



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## hassan1



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## hassan1



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## Safriz

^^^ you could have used a better camera..
good pics,thanks


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## Cent4

Windjammer said:


> Just an update on the exclusive PAF article, which has been pending for several months now due to some clearance issues, I have now received confirmation from Alan Warnes that it will be published in December issue of Air International which should come out towards the end of next month.....I have been told the classified images are very exclusive.



There is nothing in December issue, are you sure its the December issue and not the JAN 13 issue.


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## hassan1



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## fatman17

hassan1 said:


>



JFT launching a AGM-65!.....hmmm


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## fjavaid

fatman17 said:


> JFT launching a AGM-65!.....hmmm



its clearly photoshoped .......


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## hassan1



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## hassan1



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## hassan1



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## hassan1



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## hassan1



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## hassan1



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## hassan1



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## fatman17

*Airy Tales!!!*


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: 
Date: Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 1:11 AM
Subject: [PAF Club] To: PAF Club <pafclub@groups.facebook.com>


A British pilot is writing a book on Hunter pilots and other pilots who have, during their carreer, come accross special events/incidents to relate so they can be shared with others. Here is one that you all may wish to read. If you like it, you may wish to place it on any forum so others can enjoy it. I have a few others but first lets see the reaction, if any, to this one.

-----Original Message-----
From:
To: 
Sent: Sun, Nov 4, 2012 10:12 am



After my return from a two year secondment with 92 Sqdn RAF where I was a member of the sixteen Hunter a/c &#8220;Blue Diamond&#8221; formation aerobatics team, I was posted as an instructor at the Fighter Leader School PAF base Mauripur near Karachi.

One day, leading a four ship F86 Sabre formation en-route to the air to air firing range, I was contacted by GCI to intercept an unidentified a/c inbound from India. 

I asked my number 3 and 4 to continue with the mission while I and my number 2 went for the interception. After a series of left and right turns, I came in visual contact with the bogey about eight to ten miles away and informed GCI accordingly.

The GCI controller ordered me to shoot it down. I informed the controller that I would get closer to the bogey and identify what type of a/c it was. The controller answered that I was cleared to shoot it down.

As I got closer, I identified the a/c to be a Boeing 707 heading towards Karachi International airport. I informed the controller of the type of a/c but the controller without any hesitation ordered me to shoot it down.

By now, I was in close formation with the 707 and thoughts flashed through my mind, how could I shoot this a/c when I was trained in the USA, I am flying an a/c made in the USA, that this 707 is made in the USA and it is flying an American flag.

So I decided not to shoot it down and to follow it instead. I figured that the 707 could not out run me. This decision for me was agonizing, duty on one side and humanity on the other.

The 707 landed at the airport, I circled the airfield to make sure this a/c went to a gate and did not turn around and take off again.

Even though, intercept pilots are required to strictly follow all commands by a controller, in this instance common sense prevailed and thank God it did, saving many innocent lives and an International incident unlike the shooting down of a Korean 747 by Russian pilots over Kamchatka Island some years back with the loss of many innocent lives.

It turned out that the crew of this 707 filed a flight plan with the Indian civil aviation authorities which the Indians intentionally did not pass it on to the Pakistani civil aviation authorities.

I still wonder if the passengers on the 707 knew how close they came to a tragic end.

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## hassan1




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## Fieldmarshal

fatman17 said:


> *Airy Tales!!!*
> 
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From:
> Date: Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 1:11 AM
> Subject: [PAF Club] To: PAF Club <pafclub@groups.facebook.com>
> 
> 
> A British pilot is writing a book on Hunter pilots and other pilots who have, during their carreer, come accross special events/incidents to relate so they can be shared with others. Here is one that you all may wish to read. If you like it, you may wish to place it on any forum so others can enjoy it. I have a few others but first lets see the reaction, if any, to this one.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> To:
> Sent: Sun, Nov 4, 2012 10:12 am
> 
> 
> 
> After my return from a two year secondment with 92 Sqdn RAF where I was a member of the sixteen Hunter a/c &#8220;Blue Diamond&#8221; formation aerobatics team, I was posted as an instructor at the Fighter Leader School PAF base Mauripur near Karachi.
> 
> One day, leading a four ship F86 Sabre formation en-route to the air to air firing range, I was contacted by GCI to intercept an unidentified a/c inbound from India.
> 
> I asked my number 3 and 4 to continue with the mission while I and my number 2 went for the interception. After a series of left and right turns, I came in visual contact with the bogey about eight to ten miles away and informed GCI accordingly.
> 
> The GCI controller ordered me to shoot it down. I informed the controller that I would get closer to the bogey and identify what type of a/c it was. The controller answered that I was cleared to shoot it down.
> 
> As I got closer, I identified the a/c to be a Boeing 707 heading towards Karachi International airport. I informed the controller of the type of a/c but the controller without any hesitation ordered me to shoot it down.
> 
> By now, I was in close formation with the 707 and thoughts flashed through my mind, how could I shoot this a/c when I was trained in the USA, I am flying an a/c made in the USA, that this 707 is made in the USA and it is flying an American flag.
> 
> So I decided not to shoot it down and to follow it instead. I figured that the 707 could not out run me. This decision for me was agonizing, duty on one side and humanity on the other.
> 
> The 707 landed at the airport, I circled the airfield to make sure this a/c went to a gate and did not turn around and take off again.
> 
> Even though, intercept pilots are required to strictly follow all commands by a controller, in this instance common sense prevailed and thank God it did, saving many innocent lives and an International incident unlike the shooting down of a Korean 747 by Russian pilots over Kamchatka Island some years back with the loss of many innocent lives.
> 
> It turned out that the crew of this 707 filed a flight plan with the Indian civil aviation authorities which the Indians intentionally did not pass it on to the Pakistani civil aviation authorities.
> 
> I still wonder if the passengers on the 707 knew how close they came to a tragic end.



who was the pilot and when did this incident happen.

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## fatman17

Fieldmarshal said:


> who was the pilot and when did this incident happen.



has to be in the late 50's, early 60's. the names have been deleted.


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## fatman17

following the visit of the MoD to Serbia to negotiate a defence collaboration agreement, a new light attack version of the Lasta (Utva Lasta) V-54 was unveiled for demonstration.

one of the goals for the project is to find export customers rather than to produce for the Serbian AF.

it will have a turboprop engine with wing tip tanks, enabling a top speed of 312mph (500km/h). it will be fitted with a glass cockpit, ejection seats, navigation and targeting systems and four under-wing hard points plus one on the centerline. it is expected to be capable of carrying a variety of ordnance, including gun and cannon pods, bombs and unguided rocket launchers as well as guided weapons. first flight is expected by the end of 2013.

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## Windjammer

PAF Cadets being put through some mild punishment.

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## Jango

Windjammer said:


> PAF Cadets being put through some mild punishment.

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## Windjammer

*Pakistan wins coveted award prior to start of Zhuhai Air show	* 

BEIJING, NOV 12 (APP): Pakistan and China have jointly won a coveted Award in Zhuhai for the close cooperation in the promotion of Aviation Industry, a day before start of the bi-annual International Air show. The Airspace Laureate 2012 Awards was jointly received by Chief Project Director of JF-17 Programme Air Vice-Marshal Javed Ahmed, who is in Zhuhai with Pakistan Air Force contingent taking part in the international air show and from Chinese side Mr.Li Pei, Chief Project Director of China National Aero-Technology Import and Export Corporation (CATIC) in the presence of a large number of guests.

The CATIC is a large scale state-owned conglomerate with aviation products and technology import and export as its core business. 
Headquartered in Beijing, the CATIC has seven specialized companies and 10 regional subsidiaries in China and 56 overseas branches worldwide. With its total assets of up to RMB 24 billion and accumulated import and export volume of US $24 billion thus far, the CATIC ranks among the first 20 of Chinas top 500 enterprises for import and export.
The renowned China Aviation News organized the Laureate Awards ceremony on Monday evening that also got wide coverage from both domestic and international media.
This is a big achievement and acknowledgement for Pakistan and China for cooperation in their joint effort for the promotion of aviation industry, remarked Group Captain Tariq Mahmod, Director Media, Pakistan Air Force while talking to APP.
The Pakistan Air Force contingent also attended the award ceremony.

Associated Press Of Pakistan ( Pakistan's Premier NEWS Agency ) - Pakistan wins coveted award prior to start of Zhuhai Air show

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## fatman17

*China&#8217;s AVIC Unveils Future Plans at Zhuhai*

Nov. 13, 2012

By Wendell Minnick


ZHUHAI, China &#8212; The ninth biennial China International Aviation & Aerospace Exhibition was full of surprises on its first day, unveiling a variety of new weapon systems and international arms deals.

The Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) revealed plans to fill the first international order for 12 Hongdu-built supersonic L-15 &#8220;Hunting Eagle&#8221; advanced jet trainers. AVIC did not reveal the identity of the country, but potential customers include Pakistan, Africa and Latin America.

AVIC&#8217;s Hongdu Aviation Industry Group and China Aero-Technology Import and Export Corp. signed an agreement during a ceremony on Nov. 13 to begin building the L-15. .

AVIC also announced plans to replace the L-15&#8217;s two Ukrainian-built Ivchenko Progress AI-222K-25F engines that power the prototypes with the &#8220;Minshan,&#8221; a new, indigenous-built twin-spool turbofan engine. AVIC officials claim the engine is an &#8220;all-Chinese&#8221; engine, but a defense industry source indicates it is based on the Czech DV-2 engine built originally for the L-59 trainer during the Cold War. The L-59 never entered production, but the DV-2 blueprints were obtained by China.

AVIC also revealed plans to develop the L-15 into a target drone. The &#8220;Blue Fox&#8221; will serve as a high-performance target for air combat weapon tests, ground-to-air defense training.

AVIC&#8217;s Guizhou Aircraft Co. has modified its FTC-2000 light multipurpose jet trainer. The FTC-2000G has more hard points, increasing its weapon and sensor pod payload from five to nine. This has increased the weight of the aircraft from a maximum takeoff weight of 9,800 kilograms to 11,000 kilograms. Maximum endurance has been reduced from three hours to two on internal fuel. The length of the aircraft has increased from 14.5 meters to 15.4 meters (exclusive of pilot tube).

Guizhou also displayed a new model of the Harrier III UAV. The medium-to-high altitude UAV is equipped with twin rear propeller engines capable of a cruising speed of 260-320 kilometers per hour for 24 hours. Maximum takeoff weight is 2,000 kilograms, including a payload of between 300 and 700 kilograms. Operational radius of the Harrier III is 200 kilometers.

DN

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## Windjammer

*You were the best, CCS made you better.*

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## fatman17

*Pakistan participates in defence exercise in Qatar *


Monday, 19 November 2012 17:36 Posted by Shoaib-ur-Rehman Siddiqui


ISLAMABAD: Minister for Defence Syed Naveed Qamar is representing Pakistan along with a number of regional and extra-regional countries in Ferocious Falcon, a Multinational Crisis Management Exercise currently being held in Qatar.



The exercise covers crisis management aspects the scope of which includes terrorist incidents, hijackings, natural disasters, threat/damage to vital installations and services etc, said a press release issued here on Monday.



The exercise is of immense importance to Pakistan keeping in view the current situation. It is a great opportunity for Pakistan to be at a forum being participated by 23 countries.



Chief of Staff (COS) Qatar Armed Forces Maj General Hamad Bin Ali Al-Attiyah extended the invitation to the Defence Minister Syed Naveed Qamar to participate in senior leaders' seminar at the end of the Ferocious Falcon exercise.



In 2008 and 2010, Pakistan participated as an observer, however in the current exercise Pakistan Navy Ship (PNS Khaibar) is participating with an embarked helicopter.



Khurshid Shah said that this was not only a significant leap for Pakistan but spoke volume of the all expanding Defence Industry.



Pakistan is proud to be a part of the exercise and hopes to expand cooperation in areas of defence in future, the minister said.




Copyright APP (Associated Press of Pakistan), 2012

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## fatman17

*2nd AVIC-PAF Officer Development Program Completes Successfully*

2012-08-01 

On July 29th, the closing ceremony of 2nd AVIC-PAF Officer Development Program (APOD) was held at AVIC University. Mr. Tan Ruisong, President of AVIC and Mr. Gao Jianshe, Vice President of AVIC attended the closing ceremony, together with Mr. Ma Zhiping, President of CATIC. Mr. Masood Khan, Pakistani Ambassador to China was also present.

On the ceremony, Mr. Tan Ruisong presented certificate to officers from PAF. Mr. Ma Zhiping spoke highly of 2nd APOD Program and wished that all trained officers would make greater contribution to the cooperation and friendship between AVIC and PAF.

The 2nd APOD Program which was greatly supported by leaders of AVIC and CATIC was developed from 1st APOD Program in 2011. During the training, All PAF officers were invited to visit CATIC and AVIC&#8217;s design and manufacture institutions. PAF officers were impressed by the advanced products, services and management of AVIC and touched by CATIC&#8217;s responsibility, hospitality and professionalism.

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## Windjammer

* A Classic image from bygone era....
How many faces can you recognise. *

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## fatman17

Thursday, November 22, 2012

*Thoughts from Zhuhai Air Show* 



As we get to another year&#8217;s thanksgiving holiday, there are many interesting things in Chinese military development to be thankful for. The one thing that I look at from this month is the Zhuhai Air Show. Every two years, we get to see the best that China has to offer in the export market for civilian aircraft, fighter jet, UAVs, missiles, air defence weapons and engines. In the 2010 air show, we saw an expansion of UAVs. In the 2008 air show, we saw a whole new display of PGMs and ground attack weapons. In this year&#8217;s air show, I think the helicopters (especially Z-10 and Z-19) stole the show. 

Prior to the air show, we had just found out about the existence of a second Z-10 and a second Z-19 regiment. It appears both helicopters had achieved operational clearance with PLA aviation. We saw a whole host of up close pictures of Z-10 and Z-19 (including cockpit of pilots with HMDS) from the air show. TV news officially reported that both of these helicopters have achieved combat capability. 




We saw flight display from both Z-10 and Z-19 throughout this past week. From this and other photos, we now see 2 other regiments with Z-10. At the moment, it seems like each of the 4 brigades that have Z-10 have 12 or less Z-10s. That's the size of a dadui in PLA aviation rather a full regiment (which can be over 30 helos). I wonder if the goal is to have at least one dadui in Z-10 before increasing the number of Z-10s in each of the brigdaes. We might see some mixed regiments with Z-10s and Z-19s. These are just my speculations and other speculations from on line. Regardless, it appears that both Z-10 and WZ-9 turboshaft engine have reached a point of mass production. It would not surprise me if the production rate is already in the 30s per year. As more photos come out, we will get more information on their alignment. 

At the same time, we are getting more information on other Chinese helicopter projects. According to deputy GM of AVICopter, Sun Qingmin, Z-15 equipped with WZ-16 engine will start trial flight next year and expected to be certified by 2014. Using a co-developed engine will allow Z-15 to join the army and the navy. The long delayed 10 ton helicopter project appears to be moving forward to. The picture below shows two proposals for this project. The first flight is set to be in 2014 and production to start by 2017. These two proposals look like Chinese versions of black hawk and NH-90. The engine is expected to either be WZ-10 turboshaft or WZ-16 from the Z-15 project.


There is also another conceptual project XQ-01 displayed in the air show as shown below that seems to be a high speed helicopter like Eurocopter X3 or Sikorsky X2.


They also displayed a whole range of air defence weaponry that are quite impressive. Along side models that we already know about like LD-2000 (land version of Type 730), FD-2000 (export version of HQ-9), LY-80 (export version of HQ-16) and FL-3000 (export version of HQ-10), we also saw the following new models:

DK-10 and DK-9C supposedly originates from the AAMs SD-10 and PL-9C. Although in DK-10's case, it seems to be quite different from SD-10. It also seems to be a prime candidate to be quad-packed in PLAN's new VLS with its active seeker, slim size, and engagement range of up to 50 km.

FK-1000 combines the KS-1000 missile with two dual guns and on board fire control system. It seems very similar to Russia's Pantsir-S1 air defence system. 

TD-2000B is another Gun/missile air defence system which may already have been displayed previously. 

And finally, we have CS/SA-1 type vehicle carrying Type PG-99 dual35 mm gun.

We saw the usual FT and LS series of PGMs along with a new TG series of LGBs. But there were also interesting new missiles from this show:

The one making the biggest noise is the CM-400AKG missile. It is advertised as a standoff missile for JF-17. It can go Mach 5.5 in terminal phase and has maximum range of 240 km.

They also have two different variants of TL-500 missile which looks like SCALP by MBDA.


We saw a couple of more CM series air to ground missile. The CM-506KG missile looks like the NLOS missile.

Finally, there was an anti-radiation version of SD-10 missile appearing as LD-10.

There were also other interesting things on display such as a model of the J-31 project, a full scale dispaly of Wing Loong UAV and a model of CH-4 UAV. All in all, it was a very interesting air show.

There were also a couple of interesting things we saw in PLAN world. J-15 apparently made its first successful landing on Liaoning this past week. We had an overhead shot of 052C and 052D which showed the two destroyers to be the same length. Although, it seems like 052D is about 0.5 to 1 m wider. Either way, 052D is basically the same size as 052C. The new VLS installations on 052D also look to be a lot smaller than the ones on 052C. And finally, the first 056s have gone on sea trials from both HP and HD shipyard.

Posted by Feng at 4:28 PM

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## Windjammer

*
PAF Academy, Risalpur presents a scenic view.*

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## SBD-3

China's first ARM breaks cover
By Robert Hewson
11/29/2012

A new air-launched anti-radiation missile (ARM) is being promoted for export by the Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC). The LD-10 ( Lei Dian = Thunderbolt) is a product of the Luoyang Optoelectro Technology Development Centre (LOEC) - AVIC's primary air weapons specialist - and is closely based on LOEC's SD-10 (PL-12) beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile (AAM).

The LD-10 was exhibited in public for the first time at Airshow China 2012, which was held in Zhuhai from 13-18 November. The LD-10 is the first dedicated ARM to be observed in China, and LOEC officials told IHS Jane's the weapon was already in production for an (unnamed) export customer.

AVIC data identify the PAC/AVIC JF-17 Thunder (FC-1) lightweight fighter as a "typical carrier aircraft" for the LD-10. This points directly to the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) as the customer for the missile.

At Airshow China, a senior PAF officer noted that the Brazilian-built Mectron MAR-1 ARM was already integrated and operational with the JF-17 but suggested it was preferable to have "options" when it came to future JF-17 exports. 
China&#39;s first ARM breaks cover

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## fatman17

*Flight Instructors Training School (FITS) @ Peshawar Flying Club* 


Foreword: Flight Instructors Training School (FITS) is one of a kind in the whole world. FITS is located at Peshawar Flying Club, and it trains flight instructors in batches rather then individually. 

Selected commercial pilots are trained in batches per year, in a 3-month rigorous training/course. This the only channel in Pakistan for becoming an instructor, while in other countries instructor ratings are given on individual basis, and can be acquired from any flying club, school or even an independent instructor. 

The chief pilot of FITS is Capt. Mohammad Asif Khan. He is credited with playing an important role in the establishment of FITS. 

Introduction: The recognition and importance of flight instructors cannot be ignored in expanding aviation industry. The process of imparting flying training to the flight instructors is a demanding job. This specialized training is based on accurate flying techniques, vigorous skill, sound background knowledge and extensive flight/ground training. In Pakistan General Aviation an acute scarcity was envisaged in terms of an institution where comprehensive formal training and proper grooming of the potential flight instructors could be bestowed. After deliberate study and various considerations Civil Aviation Authority decided to establish an intuition for conducting such courses. To undertake this demanding task Civil Aviation Authority had placed its confidence in Peshawar Flying Club for the establishment of Flight Instructors' Training School. The training of the first course was commenced on 2nd April 1996. Chief Minister of NWFP Mr. Aftab khan sherpao inaugurated the school. High-ranking officials of CAA, and General Aviation and CFIS of the flying clubs attended the inaugural ceremony. The scope of this institution was extended to standardize the already trained flight instructors.

Chief Pilot FITS: The Civil Aviation Authority selected Capt Muhammad Asif Khan as a first Chief Pilot FITS. Capt Asif in an experienced instructor and has flown more than 5500 hours on verity of aircraft. He has served Pakistan Air force for 18 years up to the rank of Squadron Leader. He was commissioned 1978, in the GD(P) branch of Pakistan Air Force. He is graduate in aero sciences and a qualified Flight Instructor (QFI) from PAF Academy Risalpur. He has served Air Force in various capacities and has qualified a number of professional courses while serving PAF. His last assignment in the PAF was as a deputy director training officers in the Training Directorate at Rear Air Headquarters. As a chief instructor FITS he outlined the syllabus, worked out other modalities and has played an important role in establishment and operation of this distinctive institution. 

FITS Achievements: Since its inception, a total 70 instructors, 41 Assistant flight instructors in 5 regular FITS courses and 29 instructors in 5 standardizations courses have been trained by the FITS. In outlining the syllabus for different flying courses FITS has assisted the civil aviation.

FITS Instructors: To serve as a FITS instructor is a great honor as well immense challenging task. Due to imperative and demanding obligations, all FITS instructors are to be evaluated and approved by the CAA. It is worth mentioning that after graduation of the first batch, some of the FITS graduates were inducted as FITS instructors for subsequent imparting training. The following flight and ground instructors have the distinctive honor to serve as instructional staff in various FITS and standardization courses: -

Capt. J.M. Akbar (PAF)
Capt Muhammad Asif (PAF)
Capt Jamshad Akhtar (PAF)
Capt Vaqas Javed (PAF)
Mr.Rehan (FITS)
Mr. Shehryar Bin Aman Mufti (FITS)
Mr. Bilal Khan (FITS)
Mr. Mohammad Sohail (FITS) 

FITS is the only flight school in Asia recognized by U.A.E CAA. This is due to the efforts of a FITS graduate Shehryar Mufti. Shehryar Mufti is credited with playing a very important role in the establishment of FITS. Shehryar Mufti is also credited with the designing of FITS Logo.

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## Windjammer

*
Protected Under My Wings.
*

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## fatman17

*AWC - IRST* 

A podded infrared search and tracking system demonstrator developed by Air Weapons Complex (AWC) has been shown mounted under the wing of A Pakistan Air Force Mirage III fighter. Design of the air-to-air IRST, now in production, began in 1992 and was first tested in 1994. The 2.4m long installation , including a stabilizer head in a 210mm diameter supersonic housing, weighs 80kg and draws its power from the host aircraft. It has an RS-422 interface , the output being presented on a 3.5 kg electroluminescent display in the cockpit. For post mission analysis, the pod can also be connected to a 14kg mission recorder installed in the nose of the aircraft. The system is designed to be used against airborne threats, and has a multi-target search capability. The pilot can choose from three scan patterns, including spiral (26x26), horizontal (9.6x100), and vertical (100x9.6) scans. A target tracking function is also avilable, and the IRST's modular design allows for deployment on various platforms, including rotary-wing types


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## fatman17

Sunday, December 16, 2012 


*PAF bilingual declamation contest concludes in Risalpur*


Staff Report 

ISLAMABAD: Government College University Lahore won the All Pakistan Bilingual Declamation Contest held at PAF Academy Risalpur. Chief of the Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt was the chief guest on the occasion. 

According to a statement issued by the Air Headquarters, the talented youth from 45 premier institutions of Pakistan participated in the contest from December 13 to 14.

Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt awarded prizes to the winners. The first prize in English was awarded to Syeda Bareeha Fatima of Kinnaird College for Women, Lahore, whereas the second prize was won by Hamza Ishtiaq of PMA Kakul.

In Urdu debates, the first prize was awarded to Zahid Ali of Government College University, Lahore, and the second slot was grabbed by Hasan Hameed of NORE-I, Bahria College, Karachi.

The contest has been a regular feature on the academic training calendar of the PAF Academy since 1974. The declamation contest over the years has become a prestigious event for leading universities, colleges, and institutions from Karachi to Khyber. 

Enthusiastic teams gather at the Pakistan Air Force Academy Risalpur every year from all over the country and actively participate in the contest. They also get a chance to interact with the cadets and get a glimpse of life in the academy.


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## Gentelman

fjavaid said:


> its clearly photoshoped .......



yepp i too noticed when u mentioned....
misile end is just dont look real...


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## Windjammer

*

A PAF AWACS Parked at Masroor Apron.*







*A C-130 Taxies past a parked F-16 in Jacobabad.*







*
Some peculiar construction taking place in Masroor.*

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## fatman17

Windjammer said:


> *
> 
> A PAF AWACS Parked at Masroor Apron.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *A C-130 Taxies past a parked F-16 in Jacobabad.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> Some peculiar construction taking place in Masroor.*



the large hanger in the 1st pic are newly constructed for the ZDK-03's.

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## Windjammer

fatman17 said:


> the large hanger in the 1st pic are newly constructed for the ZDK-03's.



I would surely like to find out what's being constructed in the third frame, doesn't seem to be HAS.


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## Jango

fatman17 said:


> the large hanger in the 1st pic are newly constructed for the ZDK-03's.



There are three of them at the moment. Any idea why not the fourth?


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## fatman17

nuclearpak said:


> There are three of them at the moment. Any idea why not the fourth?



fourth a/c or hanger?



Windjammer said:


> I would surely like to find out what's being constructed in the third frame, doesn't seem to be HAS.



to me they look like a mix of old and new SAM/AAA sites


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## Jango

fatman17 said:


> fourth a/c or hanger?



Hangar. 

Additionally, there is always one aircraft beside the left most hangar. Just an observation.


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## Windjammer

fatman17 said:


> to me they look like a mix of old and new SAM/AAA sites



It appears to be a new acquisition, plus seem too concentrated to be such. ??


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## fatman17

*No. 4 Squadron*

Based at: Mauripur now Masroor AFB

Raised: 15 August 1959 

Tactical Role: Search and Rescue - now AWACS


Aircraft 

Past Aircraft

Grumman SA-16s, H-19D 

Honors Many S & R missions in peace time and AOP in war time (1965) 




In January 58, a maritime flight consisting of 2 Grumman SA-16 Albatross amphibian aircraft was established as part of No 12 Composite Squadron based at Mauripur. On 15 August 59 the status and strength of this flight was raised to that of a squadron with 4 SA-16s and 4 Bristol Freighters; the unit was designated No 4 Squadron. On 8 July 60 its strength was reduced to 2 SA-16s and 2 H-19D helicopters, and it was assigned the role of search, rescue, casualty evacuation and maritime reconnaissance.


No 4 Squadron carried out all its assigned tasks in a creditable manner. From 9 to 21 November 64 the unit also took part in CENTO maritime exercise Midlink VII. During the 1965 war, the SA-16s were employed to detect and report movement of all kinds of vessels, particularly the Indian aircraft carrier Vikrant. The H-19s, for their part, helped the army to track down suspicious persons in the coastal areas.


On 19 August 68 the SA-16s were placed in storage, bringing to a close their commendable ten year contribution to the task of search and rescue. No 4 Squadron continued operating its helicopters till they too were approaching the end of their useful life. In March 69 the unit was number-plated.

No 4 Squadron has stood up again in 2011 as a AWACS squadron and operate the newly acquired chinese built ZDK-03 with AESA.



Windjammer said:


> It appears to be a new acquisition, plus seem too concentrated to be such. ??



SPADA 2000 infrastructure

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## Windjammer

*Tigers In The Snow
*

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## Safriz

Friday, February 01, 2013 - Islamabad&#8212;While referring to the internal security issues, necessitating a fool proof security of PAF Bases, Chief of the Air Staff (CAS), Pakistan Air Force, Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt on Thursday reiterated that PAF was fully alive to the external threats and is capable of defending aerial frontiers of the country.

Addressing a joint gathering of Airmen during inspection of an Operational Base of Northern Air Command, he said,&#8221;My presence here and inspection of operational assets indicates the importance given to our national objectives&#8221;. 

The Air Chief also stressed upon the development of human and moral values along with emphasis on military training. On his arrival at the Base, a smartly turned out contingent of the Base presented Guard of Honour to the CAS. The Air Chief reviewed the parade.

He was also briefed on the role and task with a focus on various operational and administrative tasks being carried out at the base.

Later on, he visited various squadrons and installations, where he interacted with the Airmen. He appreciated the general preparedness and operational readiness of the base, and expressed his satisfaction on witnessing high morale and a firm resolve of all ranks for the defence of our motherland.

PAF fully capable of defending aerial frontiers: Air Chief


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## Jango

fatman17 said:


> SPADA 2000 infrastructure



How many batteries do we currently have of those?

There is one in Chaklala, one here....

Edit: found it, 10 batteries to be provided by 2013.


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## Safriz

nuclearpak said:


> How many batteries do we currently have of those?
> 
> There is one in Chaklala, one here....



Does PAF has any Chinese or Non-European Non-US alternatives?
SPADA 2000 is a European system....


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## Jango

Safriz said:


> Does PAF has any Chinese or Non-European Non-US alternatives?
> SPADA 2000 is a European system....


 @fatman17 is the man for that question...

But AFAIK, none at the moment...

There were rumors of HQ-9/HQ-18 being in trials though...or being looked upon seriously by PAF.


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## A.Razzaq

fatman17 said:


> 26 and 1 is lost due to fatal crash leaving 25.



what is the quantity right know??


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## fatman17

A.Razzaq said:


> what is the quantity right know??



same as above

do we know if POF is participating in IDEX 2013, the biggest defence show in the Middle East and Africa from Abu Dhabi next month.

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## Windjammer

*
A symbol of Pak/China friendship, JF-17 monument erected in a park. *

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## BATMAN

Windjammer said:


> *
> A symbol of Pak/China friendship, JF-17 monument erected in a park. *



What kind of park is having building erected in middle and lot of coils of rod wire, lying around?


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## Windjammer

BATMAN said:


> What kind of park is having building erected in middle and lot of coils of rod wire, lying around?


 @BATMAN

A Car Park. 

I think that's an extension to Kamra residential colony. ??
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*The real missiles are the PAF boys but what's the source of the SU-25 Frogfoot. *!

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## Glitcher

BATMAN said:


> What kind of park is having building erected in middle and lot of coils of rod wire, lying around?



which park n where ?


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## Windjammer



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## fatman17

Windjammer said:


> @BATMAN
> 
> A Car Park.
> 
> I think that's an extension to Kamra residential colony. ??
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> *The real missiles are the PAF boys but what's the source of the SU-25 Frogfoot. *!



just guessing - afghan or soviet era frogfoot force landed in PK


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## Windjammer

fatman17 said:


> just guessing - afghan or soviet era frogfoot force landed in PK



I know several Afghan AF MiG-21s, SU-22s, Gunships and Transport planes, who either deserted to Pakistan or were forced down by the PAF.....but the Frogfoot has never been mentioned.

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## fatman17

Windjammer said:


> I know several Afghan AF MiG-21s, SU-22s, Gunships and Transport planes, who either deserted to Pakistan or were forced down by the PAF.....but the Frogfoot has never been mentioned.



known as the 'fog of war'

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## Windjammer

Chief of Army Staff (COAS) General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani visited Tilla Ranges, today, in connection with Field Firing and Battle Inoculation exercises.

The exercises are aimed at simulating battlefield conditions to train the soldiers in a realistic environment. PAF aircraft and major weapon systems including artillery, provided live fire support to training maneuvers conducted by mobile troops. COAS appreciated the professional skills and motivation of troops involved in the exercises.

Earlier, on arrival, Chief of Army Staff was received by Lieutenant General Maqsood Ahmad, Commander Lahore Corps.

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## Jango

Shouldn't Corp commander I Corp, Mangla or X corp be involved rather than that of Lahore...

Just curious.

Or is the exercise involving IV corps?


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## Windjammer

nuclearpak said:


> Shouldn't Corp commander I Corp, Mangla or X corp be involved rather than that of Lahore...
> 
> Just curious.
> 
> Or is the exercise involving IV corps?



My interest is how the PAF F-7 is firing in close proximity of the PA formations......this is called confidence in fellow arm service.

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## Jango

Windjammer said:


> My interest is how the PAF F-7 is firing in close proximity of the PA formations......this is called confidence in fellow arm service.



This is called a Photoshop IMO...

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## Windjammer

nuclearpak said:


> This is called a Photoshop IMO...



No sir, you can even see the empty shells from the F-7 guns streamlining to the ground. !!


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## Jango

Windjammer said:


> No sir, you can even see the empty shells from the F-7 guns streamlining to the ground. !!



Putting in a few bullets and smoke is no tough job IMO...the angle of the aircraft among other things looks suspect, a Photoshop expert might better comment on this.

Anyways.....


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## Jango

Secondly also notice the white around the aicraft, clearly a different background than the rest of the scene which has a bluish background with trees.

Somebody took the whole surrounding of the aircraft and photoshopped it here!


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## Argus Panoptes

nuclearpak said:


> Secondly also notice the white around the aicraft, clearly a different background than the rest of the scene which has a bluish background with trees.
> 
> Somebody took the whole surrounding of the aircraft and photoshopped it here!



Was this photograph actually published in Air Forces Monthly? They do not publish photoshops.

If this photo was not taken from that source, then it is in the WRONG thread here.


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## Windjammer

The picture was posted on ISPR's official website.

Welcome to ISPR

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## Argus Panoptes

Windjammer said:


> The picture was posted on ISPR's official website.
> 
> Welcome to ISPR



1. This not the thread for ISPR press releases, but for Air Force Monthly articles and discussion.

2. If it is an ISPR release, it is likely a photoshop, but who cares? It makes for good viewing anyway.


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## Windjammer

Argus Panoptes said:


> 1. This not the thread for ISPR press releases, but for Air Force Monthly articles and discussion.



And the news is that PAF is participating in a live firing exercise. !!

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## Argus Panoptes

Windjammer said:


> And the news is that PAF is participating in a live firing exercise. !!



Did Air Force Monthly report that news? I would love to see that article so that we can talk about it in this thread.


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## Chak Bamu

Definitely a photoshop. Compound picture with two insets with the F-7 one not being obvious.


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## Windjammer

*
Ready To Rumble. *

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## Sinnerman108

Windjammer said:


> My interest is how the PAF F-7 is firing in close proximity of the PA formations......this is called confidence in fellow arm service.



It is called a fellow arm service -------- YES
It is called confidence ------------------ YES

PA and PAF have it mutually ? 

Please say more 

Qibla @fatman17 do pitch in


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## fatman17

salman108 said:


> It is called a fellow arm service -------- YES
> It is called confidence ------------------ YES
> 
> PA and PAF have it mutually ?
> 
> Please say more
> 
> Qibla @fatman17 do pitch in



sirjee pitch-in on what - PAF-PA inter-service collaboration is getting better and PAF is modifying its CAS doctrine.

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## fatman17

Tuesday, February 05, 2013 

*Remembering Khanji *


By Air Chief Marshal (r) Jamal A Khan



Doubtlessly the most admired and respected engineer of the PAF passed away a few days ago. Many of Air Marshal Iftikhar Ahmed Khan&#8217;s colleagues and even some seniors called him &#8216;Khanji&#8217; as a mark of the high esteem in which the air force held this outstanding officer.

A young Government College graduate from Lahore just as Pakistan was becoming an independent country, Iftikhar was sent with others in his course to the UK to become an aviation engineer. While gaining that qualification, the young man was so keen also to become a pilot that he spent quite a chunk of his meager salary to qualify as a civil pilot in one of the flying clubs in England. His lifelong immersion in the fast growing aviation technologies and his close association with air force pilots began as he was commissioned in 1948.

Seniors above him easily noted the young Iftikhar&#8217;s capacity for hard, purposeful work and his uncompromising integrity. This earned him increasingly challenging assignments during the first decade of his life among fighter and transport planes and pilots at several air bases. Lifelong friendship and mutual respect (and his nickname) were established during this time. Beyond his engineering expertise Khanji also gained a reputation for penning concisely expressed but comprehensively argued staff studies. This led to his becoming an instructor at the Air War College where many young pilots and engineers learned much from him.

In a mid career example noted by his colleagues, the future air marshal, then a wing commander in charge of a maintenance wing, could be daily seen riding a bicycle to visit his units for additional supervision. Why not use his officially authorized car? In Khanji&#8217;s reckoning, his right to use the official transport ended at cease work every day. Outside working hours, even for official duties, he could not justify to himself the use of the car that the air force had authorized for his senior rank and position. Despite the efforts of his senior commander to soften this interpretation, Khanji would not budge.

Stories of similar and very strict standards of personnel conduct trickled back to the Pakistan&#8217;s Air Headquarters when (as a group captain) Iftikhar held two foreign assignments where he wielded the authority for authorizing millions of dollars in defence purchases on behalf of a friendly country. The ever scrupulous Khanji earned repeated mention in the host country&#8217;s reports about this officer&#8217;s impeccable honesty and integrity.

It would have been surprising if such an officer was held back from very high assignments in the PAF. Iftikhar easily rose to the top engineering assignment in the air force and before his retirement also headed the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, a uniquely successful aircraft manufacturing network of factories.

Khanji lived to the end by the same creed he started his air force career with. His bachelor&#8217;s life emphasised dignity and simplicity. After he had reluctantly to give up golf owing to his eighty-plus years, he remained mostly surrounded by the books he loved to read. Affable to the core, he would himself insist on making a cup of tea for a visitor, and proffer it without any self-consciousness about the rattling cup extended in the friend&#8217;s direction. In the old world language such individuals were described as officers of Stirling qualities. Khanji always was.

Born in Dec 1926; Commissioned May 48; Retd as Air Marshal in Dec 84. Government College Lahore BA, BE from the PAF / Engg Course in the UK; joined a flying club in the UK at his own expense; PAF Air War College Course, was Instructor /DS; US Defence Management Course; 2 years as Squadron Engg Officer in No. 5 Sqn Aug 50-Jan 52; Risalpur, Chaklala as Engg Offr 53-55; Air HQ Staff 55-59; HQ 2 Corps Jun 59-Aug 60 Engg Offr; USAF Course Aug 60-May 61 [F-104 related]; Sargodha Engg Offr Aug 60-May 63; Air War College Jan 63-Jan 64; Air HQ Asst Dir Engg Jan 64-Mar 65; Masroor OCMW Mar 65-Sep 66; Shara Faisal SMO Oct 66-Nov 66

Air HQ DD Acft Engg Nov 66-Jul 67; Air HQ DTSvcs Jul 67-May 68; Air War College DS May 68-Nov 70; Libya Deputation Nov 70-Apr 73; Karachi DP Air May 73-May 75; Air HQ Dir Wpn Sys Mngmt May 75-Aug 75; ACAS M Aug 75-Jul 78; DCAS M Jul 78-May 82; DG Kamra May 82-Dec 84; [DC HMC Taxila 84].

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## Windjammer

*
This front shot of the F-7PG shows the much improved pilot view from the two piece canopy compared to the three piece on the older aircraft.*

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## airbus101

This is new to me when did PAF change it from 3 piece to 2 piece Canopy


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## HAIDER

Windjammer said:


> *
> This front shot of the F-7PG shows the much improved pilot view from the two piece canopy compared to the three piece on the older aircraft.*



PAF engineers did this modifications ? . or Chinese did

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## Dazzler

HAIDER said:


> PAF engineers did this modifications ? . or Chinese did



All MG variant which includes PG, come with two piece canopy as standard

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## Luftwaffe

A much better view of F-7 standard two piece canopy.

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## fatman17

Luftwaffe said:


> A much better view of F-7 standard two piece canopy.



nice picture....



HAIDER said:


> PAF engineers did this modifications ? . or Chinese did



collaborative effort.

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## fatman17

*Unsung Hero!*

one such professional was an unsung hero of the Pakistan Air Force, Air-Commodore Wladyslaw Turowicz, who was a Polish officer who had joined the PAF shortly after independence. He became a Pakistani citizen and served as head of maintenance of equipment and systems of the PAF. 

A prominent aeronautical engineer, he is considered one of the chief architects of our space programme. He also served as the administrator of Pakistan&#8217;s Space and Upper Atmosphere Research Commission (SUPARCO) from 1967 to 1970. Turowicz died in Karachi on Jan 8, 1980.

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## Kompromat

fatman17 said:


> *Unsung Hero!*
> 
> one such professional was an unsung hero of the Pakistan Air Force, Air-Commodore Wladyslaw Turowicz, who was a Polish officer who had joined the PAF shortly after independence. He became a Pakistani citizen and served as head of maintenance of equipment and systems of the PAF.
> 
> A prominent aeronautical engineer, he is considered one of the chief architects of our space programme. He also served as the administrator of Pakistan&#8217;s Space and Upper Atmosphere Research Commission (SUPARCO) from 1967 to 1970. Turowicz died in Karachi on Jan 8, 1980.




http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-history-strategy/114437-poles-paf.html

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## fatman17

Aeronaut said:


> http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-history-strategy/114437-poles-paf.html



dang..! how did i miss that thread.

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## Windjammer

*
Guys, i have managed to crop and enlarge the image that appeared in post # 583.

How many of you still think that it's photo-shopped.* !!

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## Jango

Windjammer said:


> *
> Guys, i have managed to crop and enlarge the image that appeared in post # 583.
> How many of you still think that it's photo-shopped
> *


*

Me for one...

The image was available in enlarged size the first time you posted it.*


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## Windjammer

nuclearpak said:


> Me for one...
> 
> The image was available in enlarged size the first time you posted it.



We managed to enlarge to to cover the full screen, you can then actually make the back ground through the haze and smoke and notice that none of the trees are obscure and distorted. !!


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## DANGER-ZONE

Windjammer said:


> *
> Guys, i have managed to crop and enlarge the image that appeared in post # 583.
> 
> How many of you still think that it's photo-shopped.* !!



Sir, with due respect ! Its a Clear PS. 
What made u think its real ?

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## SQ8

Windjammer said:


> We managed to enlarge to to cover the full screen, you can then actually make the back ground through the haze and smoke and notice that none of the trees are obscure and distorted. !!



The issue isnt the smoke windy.. its the size of the Jet relative to the troops.. and.. the fact that its showing a strafe attack while the aircraft is aiming somewhere else.

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## Jango

Windjammer said:


> We managed to enlarge to to cover the full screen, you can then actually make the back ground through the haze and smoke and notice that none of the trees are obscure and distorted. !!



It is clearly a different background, else why is their a thick haze only around the F-7, or is it some sort of EM cloaking gas dispersed by the F-7?

Anyways, what is the aircraft shooting at with a nose up attitude?

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## Argus Panoptes

nuclearpak said:


> It is clearly a different background, else why is their a thick haze only around the F-7, or is it some sort of EM cloaking gas dispersed by the F-7?
> 
> Anyways, *what is the aircraft shooting at with a nose up attitude?*



It is clearly shooting at the flying tank that is not captured by the picture, obviously.

Why is this discussion even in this thread? Air Force Monthly did not publish this picture, photoshopped or not.


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## Windjammer

Argus Panoptes said:


> It is clearly shooting at the flying tank that is not captured by the picture, obviously.
> 
> *Why is this discussion even in this thread? Air Force Monthly did not publish this picture, photoshopped or not*.



The thread obviously started as AFM news back in 2008 but since it has transformed into a daily PAF news/discussion section.
Perhaps the @mods need to look into the thread title. !!

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## Windjammer

*The Factory.....*







*And The Products.....*

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## Jango

Windjammer said:


> *The Factory.....*



Is that the CCS Offrs Mess?

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## Windjammer

nuclearpak said:


> Is that the CCS Offrs Mess?



No sir, entrance to Falcon's Hearth.... PAF Academy Risalpur.

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## Jango

PAF 927 having a busy day today!

Flightradar24.com - Live flight tracker!


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## Jango

*PAF pilot at Holloman AFB.*

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## SQ8

G training.. 
F-16 pilots generally get to go the US.. 
other pilots head out to South Korea.


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## Jango

Oscar said:


> G training..
> F-16 pilots generally get to go the US..
> other pilots head out to South Korea.



So is that a requirement for a viper pilot?


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## truthseeker2010

nuclearpak said:


> *PAF pilot at Holloman AFB.*



Woaha... good to see that... but i don't think it is holloman because it used to be a "black" base home to the nighthawks.... might be Luke AFB.


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## SQ8

nuclearpak said:


> So is that a requirement for a viper pilot?



Had become now for all Viper and PG pilots.. and for all JF-17 ones in due course.

Pilots are being trained in g-tolerance like never before.. and are quite buff now as well.
See some of this new crop.. and you feel like you just walked into a body building event.

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## Jango

Oscar said:


> Had become now for all Viper and PG pilots.. and for all JF-17 ones in due course.
> 
> Pilots are being trained in g-tolerance like never before.. and are quite buff now as well.
> See some of this new crop.. and you feel like you just walked into a body building event.



Much better than some bellies you saw previously!!!

The young lot in all fields has become much more fitness conscious now, with the gym and all.

BTW, when is the pilot sent for this in his PAF career? And do we have some sort of agreement with US for this?

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## SQ8

nuclearpak said:


> Much better than some bellies you saw previously!!!
> 
> The young lot in all fields has become much more fitness conscious now, with the gym and all.
> 
> BTW, when is the pilot sent for this in his PAF career? And do we have some sort of agreement with US for this?



Not sure what agreement was with the US.. but quite possibly something free as part of training and exchange.

The one with South Korea(and one other nation) is a contract based one.

The role assigned to PG pilots..and to an extent F-16 ones.. is very demanding.. 
I have seen a few pilots coming back from a training ACM mission.. and they were sweating and worn out worse than someone who has been in the gym for an hour.

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## Bratva

Oscar said:


> Not sure what agreement was with the US.. but quite possibly something free as part of training and exchange.
> 
> The one with South Korea(and one other nation) is a contract based one.
> 
> The role assigned to PG pilots..and to an extent F-16 ones.. is very demanding..
> I have seen a few pilots coming back from a training ACM mission..* and they were sweating *and worn out worse than someone who has been in the gym for an hour.




Aren't ther AC units in jets?


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## Jango

Oscar said:


> Not sure what agreement was with the US.. but quite possibly something free as part of training and exchange.
> 
> The one with South Korea(and one other nation) is a contract based one.
> 
> The role assigned to PG pilots..and to an extent F-16 ones.. is very demanding..
> I have seen a few pilots coming back from a training ACM mission.. and they were sweating and worn out worse than someone who has been in the gym for an hour.



Maybe this is the facility they use in SK...Republic of Korea Air Force « ETC Aerospace Solutions ETC Aerospace Solutions

Flying a plane at 6 to 7 g for sustained time is very difficult ...as said by somebody I know.

Also interesting to see that PG pilots getting such training, indicating a important role for the PG and significance of the plane in PAf or are the pilots being bred for the future? Or simply a improvement in training regime?

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## SQ8

mafiya said:


> Aren't ther AC units in jets?





nuclearpak said:


> Maybe this is the facility they use in SK...Republic of Korea Air Force « ETC Aerospace Solutions ETC Aerospace Solutions
> 
> Flying a plane at 6 to 7 g for sustained time is very difficult ...as said by somebody I know.
> 
> Also interesting to see that PG pilots getting such training, indicating a important role for the PG and significance of the plane in PAf or are the pilots being bred for the future? Or simply a improvement in training regime?



Depends on the role of the air craft.. 
PG pilots along with F-16 drivers are much more likely to pull higher g's than the more ground attack focused Mirages.


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## Manticore

nuclearpak said:


> *PAF pilot at Holloman AFB.*




these images were posted in key publishing back in 2006

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## Jango

ANTIBODY said:


> these images were posted in key publishing back in 2006



Yup...they are from 2006.


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## Hyperion

9g certification, yes!



nuclearpak said:


> So is that a requirement for a viper pilot?


----------



## fatman17

*Turkey, Pakistan hold joint air, naval forces exercises * 


6 March 2013


The Turkish and Pakistani military forces have initiated two joint military exercises, a naval operations exercise and an air force cooperation drill, beginning on Monday Today`s Zaman reported.

According to a statement released by the General Staff, the combined naval military exercise code-named "Aman-2013," being held at the invitation of the Pakistani naval forces, will be conducted from March 4 to 8 in the Indian Ocean. The aim of the exercise is "to show a common determination against terrorist and criminal events in a naval operating area" and "to contribute to international peace and stability," as it was described in the official statement.

The aerial operation, called "Indus Viper-2013," which will be held at the Mushaf Air Base in the Punjab province of Pakistan, is to take place between March 4 and 18. The goal of the operation is "to contribute to the development of military cooperation between Turkish and Pakistani air forces, to develop coordination between the participating elements of the operation and to improve information and experience sharing on different types of aircraft and armament."

Turkey will participate in the naval exercise with the frigate TCG Gokova (F-496), one underwater defense and one underwater assault team and two staff officers. Various units from Australia, Bangladesh, China, England, Indonesia, Italy, Japan, Malaysia, Sri Lanka, the United Arab Emirates (UAE) and the United States will also participate, according to the General Staff statement.

Five Turkish F-16 fighter jets will join the air force exercise. A previous Indus Viper operation took place at the Mushaf Air Base in 2008.

_would love to get info on DCAT of this meet_

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## fatman17

*BLR Aerospace Delivers 600 FastFin® Systems To Date;* 

Expands Military Footprint.

Source: BLR Aerospace 

Created: March 4, 2013

Sales increased over 30 percent in 2012


Bell Helicopter has made the FastFin System standard on new Bell 412 EPs. 

LAS VEGAS, Nev., March 4, 2013 &#8212; BLR Aerospace opens Heli-Expo 2013 with 600 FastFin® Tail Rotor Enhancement and Stability Systems sold to date, and a rapidly expanding military presence. Overall, the company continues to deliver strong growth. Sales increased over 30 percent in 2012, and BLR&#8217;s global military footprint skyrocketed with large fleet-wide conversion sales to Colombia, Peru, Pakistan, and the Philippines. Attendees are encouraged to visit BLR Aerospace throughout the convention at Exhibit N3724, where details on FastFin technology, performance improvement, and return on investment calculations will be shared.

Colombia has purchased nearly 60 systems to date as a part of a military cross-branch upgrade initiative, including the presidential fleet, and is currently the world&#8217;s largest fleet operator of the FastFin System. Additionally, the Pakistan Air Force, the Peruvian National Police and the Philippine Air Force have commenced fleet-wide FastFin upgrade programs, ordering a combined 55 systems in the last twelve months. 

&#8220;FastFin has established a position as a must-have technology for a range of missions,&#8221; said BLR Vice President of Sales and Marketing Dave Marone. &#8220;Those who test the system consistently decide to add it to their fleets, and would not want to fly without it. Our friends at Bell Helicopter have made it standard on new Bell 412 EPs.&#8221;

Other military operators include: The Austrian Air Force (Bell 212), the Jordan Air Force, the Turkish Air Force (UH-1H), the United States Navy (UH-1N), and the United States Department of State (Huey II). The Canadian National Defense Force has completed a flight test with the FastFin System for use on its fleet of military Bell 412s (Griffin).

With FastFin installed, most operators realize between a 10 and 90 percent increase in useful load depending on specific model and density altitude. The FastFin system includes two parallel stall strips, known as Dual Tailboom Strakes, on the tailboom and a reshaped vertical fin. FastFin optimizes airflow around the tailboom, dramatically improving tail rotor authority and wind azimuth tolerance. FastFin also improves aircraft stability, positively impacting operating costs and cycle fatigue in structures and demands on tail rotor rotating components. FastFin is widely certified and available for most Bell Mediums.

About BLR Aerospace 

BLR Aerospace is focused on Performance Innovation. With certified performance improvements flying on over 4,000 airframes, BLR proudly serves the civilian and military turbine helicopter, turboprop, and general aviation market segments worldwide. 

Note: BLR is no longer known as Boundary Layer Research and appreciates the news media&#8217;s support in accurately using the BLR Aerospace name.


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## fatman17

Saturday, March 09, 2013 


*PAF ready to meet all challenges: air chief*

Staff Report

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan Air Force chief on Friday said we must be ready to respond to any internal and external security threats.

Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt inspected one of the main operational air base, in connection with a series of inspection visits of various commands and bases in order to carry out operational evaluation of the PAF installations, equipment and support units. Upon his arrival at the base, a smartly turned out contingent presented guard of honour. The air chief reviewed the parade, and addressed a joint gathering of the airmen. While addressing the base personnel, he said, &#8220;Besides focusing on and maintaining the highest professional standards, there is a need for the PAF to prepare to meet the security challenges both internal and external.&#8221; 

The air chief emphasised upon the commanders to put in more efforts in improving the quality of living of the airmen. He also visited the deployed army units and appreciated their sense of duty and morale and contribution towards PAF&#8217;s combat readiness.

The air chief was briefed on the role and task of the various units with a focus on operational and administrative tasks and various projects of infrastructure development being carried out at the base. 

Later, the air chief visited various squadrons and installations where he interacted with the airmen.


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## Jango

fatman17 said:


> Saturday, March 09, 2013
> 
> 
> *PAF ready to meet all challenges: air chief*
> 
> Staff Report
> 
> ISLAMABAD: Pakistan Air Force chief on Friday said we must be ready to respond to any internal and external security threats.
> 
> Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt inspected one of the main operational air base, in connection with a series of inspection visits of various commands and bases in order to carry out operational evaluation of the PAF installations, equipment and support units. Upon his arrival at the base, a smartly turned out contingent presented guard of honour. The air chief reviewed the parade, and addressed a joint gathering of the airmen. While addressing the base personnel, he said, &#8220;Besides focusing on and maintaining the highest professional standards, there is a need for the PAF to prepare to meet the security challenges both internal and external.&#8221;
> 
> The air chief emphasised upon the commanders to put in more efforts in improving the quality of living of the airmen. He also visited the deployed army units and appreciated their sense of duty and morale and contribution towards PAF&#8217;s combat readiness.
> 
> The air chief was briefed on the role and task of the various units with a focus on operational and administrative tasks and various projects of infrastructure development being carried out at the base.
> 
> Later, the air chief visited various squadrons and installations where he interacted with the airmen.








Jacobabad?

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## Windjammer

nuclearpak said:


> Jacobabad?



No 9 Squadron F-16A in the back ground going through MLU. !!

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## Windjammer



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## Jango

Windjammer said:


> No 9 Squadron F-16A in the back ground going through MLU. !!



Isn't the F-16 sent to Turkey or US for MLU?


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## Windjammer

nuclearpak said:


> Isn't the F-16 sent to Turkey or US for MLU?








I believe some work is also carried out in the house, if you look at the F-16, top of the nose just in front of the windscreen, it's supporting the new antennas....one of the features on the upgraded older F-16s.
 @Oscar, if you have had your corn flakes, your input would be very valuable. !!

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## Jango

Windjammer said:


> @Oscar, if you have had your corn flakes, your input would be very valuable. !!








BTW, isn't that a F-16 B?

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## Windjammer

nuclearpak said:


> BTW, isn't that a F-16 B?



Yes my bad, it's a dual seater. !!


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## SQ8

Windjammer said:


> @Oscar, if you have had your corn flakes, your input would be very valuable. !!



Still munching on granola.. 
And it look more like an indepth visit rather than a MLU..


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## umair86pk

MLU contract with TAI has a stipulation that TAI will train PAC tech people on MLU to be conducted at PAC after initial 3 aircrafts upgraded in Turkey.



Oscar said:


> Still munching on granola..
> And it look more like an indepth visit rather than a MLU..



It looks like that aircraft is in finishing stage after MLU.


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## Windjammer

Oscar said:


> Still munching on granola..
> And it look more like an indepth visit rather than a MLU..



Nothing like a cup of Carte Noire to follow......
My dear, the question is whether MLU are taking place in Pakistan....at least some of them. ??


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## SQ8

umair86pk said:


> MLU contract with TAI has a stipulation that TAI will train PAC tech people on MLU to be conducted at PAC after initial *3 aircrafts upgraded in Turkey.*
> 
> 
> 
> It looks like that aircraft is in finishing stage after MLU.



Should be some supervision around then.. it does look like a lot of work is going on.



Windjammer said:


> Nothing like a cup of Carte Noire to follow......
> My dear, the question is whether MLU are taking place in Pakistan....at least some of them. ??



Cant say much on that.. TAI only has limited spaces as they are upgrading their own F-16 fleet as well.

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## Windjammer

Oscar said:


> Should be some supervision around then.. it does look like a lot of work is going on.
> 
> 
> 
> Cant say much on that.. TAI only has limited spaces as they are upgrading their own F-16 fleet as well.



The F-16 in the image, albeit one of the older models, seems to have gone/going through an upgrade, if it had the work done in the States or Turkey, it wouldn't be going through such an in-depth post-mortem. It's also worth noting that the aircraft belongs to Sargodha based unit and it's captured in Jacobabad.

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## SQ8

Windjammer said:


> The F-16 in the image, albeit one of the older models, seems to have gone/going through an upgrade, if it had the work done in the States or Turkey, it wouldn't be going through such an in-depth post-mortem. It's also worth noting that the aircraft belongs to Sargodha based unit and it's captured in Jacobabad.



Thats because the PAF has decided to make Jacobabad its Block-52 and MLU training and conversion base.
Also, Jacobabad is off-limits to Chinese and is monitored by US personnel.


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## Jango

Windjammer said:


> The F-16 in the image, albeit one of the older models, seems to have gone/going through an upgrade, if it had the work done in the States or Turkey, it wouldn't be going through such an in-depth post-mortem. It's also worth noting that the aircraft belongs to Sargodha based unit and it's captured in Jacobabad.



Sargodha doesn't have such maintenance facilities. Just as Mi 17 overhaul is done in Karachi, and a big fa ility for the rest is at Dhamial, C-130 at chaklala, F-16 facilities are at Jacobabad.

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## Storm Force

VERY INTRESTING REMARK FROM OSCAR RE BLOCK 52s 

A


> lso, Jacobabad is off-limits to Chinese and is monitored by US personnel.


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## Jango

Storm Force said:


> VERY INTRESTING REMARK FROM OSCAR RE BLOCK 52s
> 
> A



It's an open fact...Jacobabad was made by the Yanks...maintenance...hangars...lines everything. Just for keeping an eye that CHiense don't get to inspect the Blk 52's.

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## Jango

*Take a guess....*


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## DroneAcharya

nuclearpak said:


> *Take a guess....*


That's in a C-130 right ?

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## Windjammer

nuclearpak said:


> Sargodha doesn't have such maintenance facilities. Just as Mi 17 overhaul is done in Karachi, and a big fa ility for the rest is at Dhamial, C-130 at chaklala, F-16 facilities are at Jacobabad.



Come on yara....Jacobabad was commissioned just a few years earlier, PAF has been operating the F-16 for almost three decades now, the engines were sent to a facility in Karachi, all the rest was carried out in Sargodha....if you have a copy of "Defenders of Pakistan"....check out the maintenance hangar image. 




nuclearpak said:


> It's an open fact...Jacobabad was made by the Yanks...maintenance...hangars...lines everything. Just for keeping an eye that CHiense don't get to inspect the Blk 52's.



But the ones upgraded are flying all over Pakistan. !!

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## Jango

Windjammer said:


> Come on yara....Jacobabad was commissioned just a few years earlier, PAF has been operating the F-16 for almost three decades now, the engines were sent to a facility in Karachi, all the rest was carried out in Sargodha....if you have a copy of "Defenders of Pakistan"....check out the maintenance hangar image.



Yeah...but someone told me that the ones with the advanced facilities and some other have been shifted more or less to Jacobabad. Maybe Oscar can confirm.

As for the second question...there isn't much you can do with just one or two hours of time on the tarmac...the base is what matters IMO.

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## fatman17

Oscar said:


> Thats because the PAF has decided to make Jacobabad its Block-52 and MLU training and conversion base.
> Also, Jacobabad is off-limits to Chinese and is monitored by US personnel.



not 24/7 just when they come for a audit of assets.


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## v9s

fatman17 said:


> not 24/7 just when they come for a audit of assets.



Obviously there isn't a 24/7 _physical_ presence, but i'm pretty sure the camera feeds are monitored 24/7.

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## Windjammer

A little dated but nice image of F-7Ps running in for a Cluster Bomb Attack.

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## Sinnerman108

Windjammer said:


> Come on yara....Jacobabad was commissioned just a few years earlier, PAF has been operating the F-16 for almost three decades now, the engines were sent to a facility in Karachi, all the rest was carried out in Sargodha....if you have a copy of "Defenders of Pakistan"....check out the maintenance hangar image.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But the ones upgraded are flying all over Pakistan. !!



Interesting fact,

Do you know who was Jacobabad land acquired from ? ( Hint a man in blue friends with PPP made a lot of money )



nuclearpak said:


> Yeah...but someone told me that the ones with the advanced facilities and some other have been shifted more or less to Jacobabad. Maybe Oscar can confirm.
> 
> As for the second question...there isn't much you can do with just one or two hours of time on the tarmac...the base is what matters IMO.



That is true.
Jacobabad now hosts the most advanced technology.

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## Argus Panoptes

v9s said:


> Obviously there isn't a 24/7 _physical_ presence, but i'm pretty sure the camera feeds are monitored 24/7.



I would concur. The virtual presence is indeed 24/7 as technology makes it easier to reduce the amount of physical presence needed to ensure secure monitoring.


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## Windjammer

*YOUNG GUNS*

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## Windjammer

*Women should come forward to join PAF, other fields: Saba Khan*

Tuesday, 12 March 2013 11:49 Posted by Parvez Jabri








ISLAMABAD: Pakistan Air Force is the most respectable field for women to serve, provided they are given all pre requisite education and training.
These words were expressed by the Flight Lieutenant, Pakistan Air Force Saba Khan in a talk with PTV Tuesday.
She said that she was the first in the batch of four pilots in Pakistan Air Force with great support and encouragement by her family.
She said PAF is the best profession for women to opt for and she would advise girls to join this field.
She said PAF training is very tough as flying itself is very demanding and it's very challenging physically and mentally adding final handling training is really very tough in this regard.
She appreciated PAF's decision about women's inclusion in PAF and was of the view that what matters is the expertise and not the gender as male or female in any field.
She added that we are proud to be able PAF's graduate pilots.
She said although there is a tough training in this field but she never compromised on physical training and now she is one of the best flying pilot in PAF.





_
Thumbs up for PAF from Flight Lieutenant Saba Khan and a fellow female pilot._

Women should come forward to join PAF, other fields: Saba Khan

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## SEAL

Beautiful mountains and PAF pilots Skardu AFB.

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## Bratva

SEAL said:


> Beautiful mountains and PAF pilots Skardu AFB.



It's odd PAF pilots deputed to Pakistan Navy are flying in skardu. Perhaps a traning sortie

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## Jango

SEAL said:


> Beautiful mountains and PAF pilots Skardu AFB.



NaVal pilots, with A5 at Skardu?

Very weird.

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## fatman17

14 March 2013

*AirForces Monthly Issue 001 is now available for you to download electronically*.


The first issue of AirForces Monthly came out in April 1988 and April 2013 marks 25 years of the magazine.

AFM has changed dramatically since Issue 1. The magazine now contains 100 pages, whereas the first issue only had 64. All photos are now in colour and news is up-to-date from all corners of the globe.

We have scanned the magazine from cover-to-cover and is now available for download. The file is almost 16Mb, so it might take non-broadband users a while to download.

If you have any issues downloading the PDF, please do let us know.

Thank you
AFM


_its free_



nuclearpak said:


> NaVal pilots, with A5 at Skardu?
> 
> Very weird.



if a/c are lost over snow covered mtns, the pilot also wears orange kit for SAR crews to locate.

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## fatman17

fatman17 said:


> 14 March 2013
> 
> *AirForces Monthly Issue 001 is now available for you to download electronically*.
> 
> 
> The first issue of AirForces Monthly came out in April 1988 and April 2013 marks 25 years of the magazine.
> 
> AFM has changed dramatically since Issue 1. The magazine now contains 100 pages, whereas the first issue only had 64. All photos are now in colour and news is up-to-date from all corners of the globe.
> 
> We have scanned the magazine from cover-to-cover and is now available for download. The file is almost 16Mb, so it might take non-broadband users a while to download.
> 
> If you have any issues downloading the PDF, please do let us know.
> 
> Thank you
> AFM
> 
> 
> _its free_
> 
> 
> 
> if a/c are lost over snow covered mtns, the pilot also wears orange kit for SAR crews to locate.



has article on the T-33 operators and mentions that the K-8 has been designed with 1st flight in 1990.


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## Liquidmetal

Windjammer said:


> *YOUNG GUNS*



Baby faced warriors. God speed sons of PK.

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## Xracer

For Allah Sake someone tell me when j10s are coming plzzzzzzzzzz


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## SQ8

Xracer said:


> For Allah Sake someone tell me when j10s are coming plzzzzzzzzzz



You should not do many of these "Allah ka wasta's".. becomes a habit for even the tiniest things.. trust me.. Ive suffered.

And the J-10s are NOT.. I repeat.. N O T... Nein.. Nyet.. Nahin.. Coming.
J-10's Nahin aarahe.. Unn ko bhool jayo aur aaram se sou.

We dont have the money to sustain the JF-17 program .. J-10s are out of the question.

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## Imran Khan

Oscar said:


> You should not do many of these "Allah ka wasta's".. becomes a habit for even the tiniest things.. trust me.. Ive suffered.
> 
> And the J-10s are NOT.. I repeat.. N O T... Nein.. Nyet.. Nahin.. Coming.
> J-10's Nahin aarahe.. Unn ko bhool jayo aur aaram se sou.
> 
> We dont have the money to sustain the JF-17 program .. J-10s are out of the question.




allah ke name per 2-4 hi de do babu  hum ghareeboon ko usy PAF colors main dekhna hai hum par rahim kero tumhy allah saeen ka wasta baba

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## Xracer

Oscar said:


> You should not do many of these "Allah ka wasta's".. becomes a habit for even the tiniest things.. trust me.. Ive suffered.
> 
> And the J-10s are NOT.. I repeat.. N O T... Nein.. Nyet.. Nahin.. Coming.
> J-10's Nahin aarahe.. Unn ko bhool jayo aur aaram se sou.
> 
> We dont have the money to sustain the JF-17 program .. J-10s are out of the question.



Nahiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii
ASa Mat Bolooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo China yar Koi ek ada hi day do


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## bilawalkhan

we are doomed, now what we have . 
f-16 vs Sukhoi PAK-FA 
jf-17 vs dassoult RafaLE 
f7 sky-bolt vs SU-30-MKI
MIRAGES VS MIGS

even if u are a patriotic Pakistani, what the hell will u think, and plz dont dare to say, that our pilots are better, they are better but what they have to fly, seriously this is bullshit

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## Pfpilot

bilawalkhan said:


> we are doomed, now what we have .
> f-16 vs Sukhoi PAK-FA
> jf-17 vs dassoult RafaLE
> f7 sky-bolt vs SU-30-MKI
> MIRAGES VS MIGS
> 
> even if u are a patriotic Pakistani, what the hell will u think, and plz dont dare to say, that our pilots are better, they are better but what they have to fly, seriously this is bullshit



It's important to remain level headed in times good and bad. Much like the j-10 wouldn't suddenly give us air superiority over the IAF, it's absence doesn't doom us either. Does it leave us in a disadvantageous position? Absolutely, but that isn't the end of the world. If your fear is based plainly on a one to one comparison, then it maybe a good time to remember those sanctioned block 15s of yore would have been mowed down by the MKI as well. We were outmatched then and we are outmatched now. Which is why any PAF posturing over the last 20 years has been very defensive in nature.

If we focus on the geopolitical reality of the subcontinent and the role of the Indian and Pakistani forces in maintaining it, then this should come as no surprise. Minimum deterrence has been the term thrown around often on this forum and it does accurately reflect the present PAF capability. The PAF can defend Pakistani airspace and offer a limited strike and CAS capability. In short, we can defend ourselves, until a diplomatic solution presents itself.

On a side note, to claim that our neighbor's pilots are inferior is a great insult to the PAF pilots who risk their lives by going toe to toe against them.

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## bilawalkhan

Pfpilot said:


> It's important to remain level headed in times good and bad. Much like the j-10 wouldn't suddenly give us air superiority over the IAF, it's absence doesn't doom us either. Does it leave us in a disadvantageous position? Absolutely, but that isn't the end of the world. If your fear is based plainly on a one to one comparison, then it maybe a good time to remember those sanctioned block 15s of yore would have been mowed down by the MKI as well. We were outmatched then and we are
> If we focus on the geopolitical reality of the subcontinent and the role of the Indian and Pakistani forces in maintaining it, then this should come as no surprise. Minimum deterrence has been the term thrown around often on this forum and it does accurately reflect the present PAF capability. The PAF can defend Pakistani airspace and offer a limited strike and CAS capability. In short, we can defend ourselves, until a diplomatic solution presents itself.
> 
> On a side note, to claim that our neighbor's pilots are inferior is a great insult to the PAF pilots who risk their lives by going toe to toe against them.



outmatched now. Which is why any PAF posturing over the last 20 years has been very defensive in nature.
are we that much poor, that we are forced to be on the defensive, so then why we are proud to be a pakistani, we thought ourself as a power, hahahah

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## MastanKhan

Windjammer said:


> *YOUNG GUNS*




Hi,

Thank you for the picture. Why are their hair so long---and a pilot with facial hair---a beard.


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## genmirajborgza786

bilawalkhan said:


> outmatched now. Which is why any PAF posturing over the last 20 years has been very defensive in nature.
> are we that much poor, that we are forced to be on the defensive, so then why we are proud to be a pakistani, we thought ourself as a power, hahahah



are you seriously dumb or just a TROLL just look @ your post they makes no sense none of it


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## ejaz007

bilawalkhan said:


> outmatched now. Which is why any PAF posturing over the last 20 years has been very defensive in nature.
> are we that much poor, that we are forced to be on the defensive, so then why we are proud to be a pakistani, we thought ourself as a power, hahahah



Outmatched in which sense?

Depending on the situation PAF has been both defensive and offensive force. In the last twenty years we have not been at war therefore no need to go offensive.


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## Windjammer

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thank you for the picture. Why are their hair so long---and a pilot with facial hair---a beard.


As long as hairs are above the ear, i understand it's fine.....as for the beard, it's not exactly prohibited in the PAF.....as long as it doesn't cause a hazard when applying the oxygen mask. 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sharp Shooters Show Their Moves.

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## Windjammer

Albeit, the text says this F-6 mounted in China Chowk was once under use by the late M M Alam, 
however, it's seen getting a fresh coat of paint on March 19, 2013.

Daily Express News Story

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## umair86pk

Windjammer said:


> Albeit, the text says this F-6 mounted in China Chowk was once under use by the late M M Alam,
> however, it's seen getting a fresh coat of paint on March 19, 2013.
> 
> Daily Express News Story



It was definitely used by a squadron commander of No.23 Squadron as the checkers proves it but question is when M.M.Alam was posted at 23 Squadron and was it equipped with F-6 at that time. if this aircraft did belongs to him China Chowk should renamed in his honor. M.M.Alam never got the respect that he deserved from Pakistan. If he had been an USAF ace he would have served to his proper retirement age of 60 and become a full 4 star General instead of forced retiring from the profession he loved most. His day of death would have been declared a national day of mourning and flag should have been at half mist but instead of pay respect to our real heroes we relish the martyrs of democracy more who have done nothing for our country instead of looting it.

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## fatman17

what i want to know where is the late MM Alam's favourite mount the F-86 he used in the 65 war which has the 9 kills and 2 damaged indian tri-color painted under the cockpit.

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## Argus Panoptes

fatman17 said:


> what i want to know where is the late MM Alam's favourite mount the F-86 he used in the 65 war which has the 9 kills and 2 damaged indian tri-color painted under the cockpit.



According to this page, that famous plane is on the lower Mall in Lahore:

Panoramio - Photo of MM Alam&#39;s Legendary F 86 Sabre


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## Windjammer

fatman17 said:


> what i want to know where is the late MM Alam's favourite mount the F-86 he used in the 65 war which has the 9 kills and 2 damaged indian tri-color painted under the cockpit.



Albeit, preserved in model shape, but can't locate the original # 54026 machine. !!








------------------------------------------------------------
Serial	Fate	year
1592	Crashed	1971
1594	"	1969
1595	Extant	-
1606	Crashed	1971
1607	"	"
1608	"	"
1614	"	"
1616	"	1970
1617	"	1971
1618	"	"
1621	"	1972
1622	Scrapped	1979
1623	Extant	-
1624	Crashed	1973
1626	Scrapped	1978
1627	Extant	-
1629	"	-
1632	"	-
1634	Scrapped	1980
1636	Crashed	1978
1639	Extant	-
1650	Crashed	1970
1652	Scrapped	1968
1653	Crashed	1971
1655	Extant	-
1656	Extant	-
1657	Crashed	1971
1658	"	1967
1660	"	1974
1661	-	1971
1663	"	"
1665	Scarpped	1976
1669	Crashed	1971
1670	Museum	-
1674	"	1968
1683	"	1975
1689	Crashed	1971
1692	"	1976
1693	Extant	-
1695	Crashed	1973
1701	Extant	-
1702	"	-
1703	Crashed 
1705	Extant	-
1709	"	-
1718	Crashed	1971
1719	"	"
1720	"	1968
1722	Extant	-
1728	Museum	-
1733	Extant	-
1735	Crashed	1971
1738	"	"
1739	Extant	-
1742	Crashed	1968
1747	Extant	-
1749	Crashed	1968
1751	Extant	-
1754	Extant	-
1756	Scrapped	1978
1763	Crashed	1971
1764	Extant	-
1765	Crashed	1966
1766	"	1970
1771	Scrapped	1978
1772	Crashed	1971
1777	Scrapped	1978
1778	Extant	-
1781	Scarpped	1975
1783	Extant	-
1786	Crashed	1971
1787	"	1975
1788	"	1980
1789	Extant	-
1790	"	-
1792	Scrapped	1980
1794	Extant	-
1797	"	-
1798	Crashed	1974
1800	"	1972
1802	"	1971
1803	"	"
1804	"	1975
1808	"	1978
1809	Scrapped	1977
1810	Extant	-
1811	Crashed	1975
1812	Scrapped	1974
1815	Extant	-


----------



## air marshal

PAF Falcons Merchandise - Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Aviation Art Prints

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## Windjammer

@Aeronaut 

Not sure if he ever served as an air attache...but evidentally the man was in India at some point.


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## SQ8

Windjammer said:


> @Aeronaut
> 
> Not sure if he ever served as an air attache...but evidentally the man was in India at some point.



Footloose: Enchanting Jaipur

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## Windjammer

Oscar said:


> Footloose: Enchanting Jaipur



A bit of a traveller and a sight seer too.....well obviously it looks different when you are on the ground.


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## Kompromat

Sir Tufail is a keen traveler.

IDK if it is right to post family pics here,unless by permission.


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## Windjammer

Aeronaut said:


> Sir Tufail is a keen traveler.
> 
> IDK if it is right to post family pics here,unless by permission.



It's all over the Facebook and also appears in his travel log.....but if you think it's inappropriate then please by all means remove it.


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## fatman17

Saturday, March 23, 2013 


*Chief of Air Staff&#8217;s message on Pakistan Day* 



On the auspicious occasion of the Pakistan Day (Resolution Day), I extend warm greetings to all my countrymen and women. The 23rd of March, 1940, undoubtedly stands as a defining moment in our history, as it culminated in the propagation of the historic Two-Nation Theory. It was at that moment, the Muslims of the sub-continent were thus united to launch an epic struggle for a separate homeland, which eventually reached its logical conclusion on 14 of August, 1947.

As we celebrate this day with traditional national fervour and enthusiasm, it is incumbent upon us to make our younger generation realize the true value and worth of Independence. Pakistan came into being as a special blessing of Allah Almighty and as a result of supreme sacrifices of our forefathers, led by courageous, selfless and devoted leaders of freedom movement. Let us pledge today that we will stand firm as a nation to safeguard our country and freedom by displaying the same spirit which earned us this sacred motherland. I am sure that following the ideals of Islam, and displaying solidarity among our people, we will not only be able to defeat the enemies of our state but will also be successful in embarking on new vistas of unparalleled progress and prosperity in line with the enormous potential, Allah Almighty has bestowed this country and nation with. On this momentous occasion, I wish to assure my countrymen that Pakistan Air Force is fully committed to the mission entrusted to it by the nation. Being the sentinels of aerial frontiers, Pakistan Air Force is in a high state of operational readiness to thwart any nefarious designs of the enemy. May Allah Almighty grant us the strength, wisdom and vision to safeguard our sovereignty and discharge our duties to the best of our abilities. Aameen!


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## UmarJustice

*Air Force chief calls on President*
Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Muhammad Tahir Rafique Butt Friday called on President Asif Ali Zardari at Aiwan-e-Sadr. Professional matters pertaining to Pakistan Air Force were discussed during the meeting. The Air Chief briefed the President about operational preparedness of the Air Force and said it was ready to confront all the challenges.

He also discussed the projects in hand to improve the efficiency and capabilities of the PAF

Air Force chief calls on President | The Nation


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## fatman17

Sunday, March 24, 2013 


*President confers awards upon PAF officers*


ISLAMABAD: President Asif Ali Zardari on Saturday conferred military awards upon officers of Pakistan Air Force (PAF). Air Vice Marshal Arshad Quddus and Air Vice Marshal Sohail Aman have been awarded with Hilal-i-Imtiaz( Military). Air Commodore Khalid Mahmood, Air Commodore Shahjahan Sattar Khan, Air Commodore Khawar Hussain, Air Commodore Aasim Zaheer, *Air Commodore Humayun Viqar Zephyr*, Air Commodore Noor Abbas, Group Captain Muhammad Safdar, Group Captain Muhammad Afzal, Group Captain Shahzad Zafar Dogar, Group Captain Omer Sharif, Group Captain M Arif Burq, Group Captain Salman Mahboob, Group Captain Gohar Majeed Khan, Group Captain Muhammad Waseem, Group Captain Shahid Nadeem, Group Captain Tahir Mukhtar have been awarded with Sitara-i-Imtiaz (Military). *In recognition of his tremendous efforts and support for the JF-17 Thunder programme Mr Wang Guangya Chairman of the Board, President Chengdu Aircraft industrial Group Co. Ltd Peoples Republic of China, has been awarded Sitara-i-Imtiaz by president of Pakistan*. Tamgha-i-Imtiaz has been awarded to Group Captain Syed Ali Zaidi, Group Captain Muhammad Shafique Siddique, Wing Commander Muhammad Ehsan-ul-Haq, Wing Commander Gohar-Ul-Hassan Syed, Wing Commander Aurangzeb Ahmed, Wing Commander Salman Masood, Wing Commander Muhammad Asif Aslam, Wing Commander Arif Mahmood, Wing Commander Imran Siddiqui, Wing Commander Adnan Qadeer, Wing Commander Tariq Iqbal , Wing Commander Muhammad Usman Malik, Wing Commander Muhammad Ikram-Ul-Haq Noor, Wing Commander Muhammad Nasir Javed. *Squadron Leader Bilal Hassan Babri (Shaheed) has been awarded with Sitara-i-Basalat*. Wing Commander Jehan-Zeb Tahir, Sqn Ldr Syed Asif Hussain have been awarded with Imtiazi Sanad. app


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## TaimiKhan

Ok this pic in this thread is very interesting. A pilot friend of mine a few months ago did mention something like this was being tested on PAF aircrafts and that it was locally assembled / manufactured and might soon be operational. This pic is from some defence show somewhere abroad, and looking at the pics it seems its a AERO stall and the display of it here would suggest that AERO is making now Chinese origin glide bomb kits in house and they seem to be operational with aircraft other then JF-17s. New & encouraging development.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...pakistan-weapons-industry-12.html#post3980211

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## MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n

umair86pk said:


> It was definitely used by a squadron commander of No.23 Squadron as the checkers proves it but question is when M.M.Alam was posted at 23 Squadron and was it equipped with F-6 at that time. if this aircraft did belongs to him China Chowk should renamed in his honor. M.M.Alam never got the respect that he deserved from Pakistan. If he had been an USAF ace he would have served to his proper retirement age of 60 and become a full 4 star General instead of forced retiring from the profession he loved most. His day of death would have been declared a national day of mourning and flag should have been at half mist but instead of pay respect to our real heroes we relish the martyrs of democracy more who have done nothing for our country instead of looting it.



this is really disappointing and demoralizing but it is a sad reality of our society ...


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## MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n

umair86pk said:


> It was definitely used by a squadron commander of No.23 Squadron as the checkers proves it but question is when M.M.Alam was posted at 23 Squadron and was it equipped with F-6 at that time. if this aircraft did belongs to him China Chowk should renamed in his honor. M.M.Alam never got the respect that he deserved from Pakistan. If he had been an USAF ace he would have served to his proper retirement age of 60 and become a full 4 star General instead of forced retiring from the profession he loved most. His day of death would have been declared a national day of mourning and flag should have been at half mist but instead of pay respect to our real heroes we relish the martyrs of democracy more who have done nothing for our country instead of looting it.



aj ki yeh pakistani qoum sms , kfc aor facebook waali qoum hai ... 

they really are least bothered about matters & affairs which harms PakisTan 's national security and compromise its Core interests ... but then again the people of this country (not surprisingly) just don't care either for our so patriotic national heroes of PakisTan ... 

so iss qoum say qaumi-humiyat aur qaumi-ghaiyrat ki tawaqqow rakhhna ek bay-maani baat haey ... 

LoOong L|ve PakisTan 's armed ForCes ... 

PakisTan Zinda-BaaD ... 

|sLaam Paiynda-BaaD ...


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## Windjammer

*
Bandits Territory.*

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## Capt.Popeye

Oscar said:


> Footloose: Enchanting Jaipur



Air Cdre Kaiser Tufail travelled to India after he superannuated from service. He was even hosted by IAF officers during his visit there. The ubiquitous Ambassador Staff Cars have even found mention in his blog; including the fact of its "vintage" Morris Oxford pedigree!


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## DANGER-ZONE

Windjammer said:


> *
> Bandits Territory.*



*Bro you are sharing too many FB hosted pictures i hope they are not from anyone's private album. *
Be Careful.


----------



## Windjammer

danger-zone said:


> *Bro you are sharing too many FB hosted pictures i hope they are not from anyone's private album. *
> Be Careful.



Not guilty.....someone sends them to me and i share them with you guys. 
BTW, how can you be certain they are from FB.

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## DANGER-ZONE

Windjammer said:


> Not guilty.....someone sends them to me and i share them with you guys.
> BTW, how can you be certain they are from FB.



Because the picture of KT you have hosted is from his Private Album ... and rest you can see that all the links of your images Contain *fbcdn* which is Content delivery network - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Besides, when you click on the link you will see a FB Logo on your Browser TAB. I can also track these links to respective profile or user but i wont. So kindly if you are sharing someone's personal picture, please don't do anymore. Respect others privacy and also you are exposing Pilots faces to public.

I hope you understand. 

http://sphotos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/426379_354314988019653_468447120_n.jpg
https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/522636_349250678526084_2143544652_n.jpg
https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/601204_356808221103663_234066293_n.jpg
https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/206262_353310431453442_472449860_n.jpg


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## Windjammer

danger-zone said:


> *Because the picture of KT you have hosted is from his Private Album* ... and rest you can see that all the links of your images Contain *fbcdn* which is Content delivery network - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Besides, when you click on the link you will see a FB Logo on your Browser TAB. I can also track these links to respective profile or user but i wont. So kindly if you are sharing someone's personal picture, please don't do anymore. Respect others privacy and also you are exposing Pilots faces to public.
> 
> I hope you understand.



Dude, chill out man, if it's been posted on the net, then where's the privacy.....some of the pictures i exclusively watermarked are appearing all over on the other sites and forums.....as for KT, his family picture appears in the link to his travel log.

Footloose: Enchanting Jaipur


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## Windjammer

*
Eagles moving out of their nest.*

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## Luftwaffe

Windjammer said:


>



saddening to see this thing is 40+ it should be resting at retirement home.

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## Windjammer

Luftwaffe said:


> saddening to see this thing is 40+ it should be resting at retirement home.



These are relatively newer frames dating from mid-80s......same as the first F-16s .

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## Luftwaffe

Windjammer said:


> These are relatively newer frames dating from mid-80s......same as the first F-16s .



Did they get F-16s like MLU, and I would suppose and imagine they would have flown more hours than F-16s during days of pressler amendment. Anyway it has done it Job very well hope for its speedy replacement.

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## Windjammer

Luftwaffe said:


> Did they get F-16s like MLU, and I would suppose and imagine they would have flown more hours than F-16s during days of pressler amendment. Anyway it has done it Job very well hope for its speedy replacement.



Looking at the antennas on the tail, it's possible to say this aircraft went through a ROSE programme.

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## Windjammer

Double Post.


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## Jango

Windjammer said:


> *
> Eagles moving out of their nest.*



What is that circular emblem on the vertical stabilizer?


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## Windjammer

nuclearpak said:


> What is that circular emblem on the vertical stabilizer?



Emblem of No 25 Squadron....Eagles.....something like the PDF Logo.

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## Jango

Windjammer said:


> Emblem of No 25 Squadron....Eagles.....something like the PDF Logo.



this looks more like a sword!!!

I always thought that every 25 Sqn aircraft had a emblem like the following...






Or just a black full eagle, not inside the circle.


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## Jango

BTW, which squadron has the IFR probe Mirages? 7 Sqn?


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## Windjammer

The aircraft belongs to same No 25 squadron, except it's been dedicated for special night time operations.....hence the Night Strike Eagles.

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## Windjammer

nuclearpak said:


> BTW, which squadron has the IFR probe Mirages? 7 Sqn?



Yup, No 7 "Bandits" which recently participated in the Indus Viper II.

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## khanasifm

Windjammer said:


> Yup, No 7 "Bandits" which recently participated in the Indus Viper II.



looks like these were ccs mirages from ccs sqdn

http://babriet.tripod.com/airforce/sqd/ccs.htm

http://www.pafwallpapers.com/aircraft_gallery/Mirage_gallery/Mirage_tail_CCS.jpg

http://www.pafwallpapers.com/aircraft_gallery/Mirage_gallery/mirage_ccs_runway_02.jpg

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/238560-paf-tuaf-indus-viper-13-exercise-2.html


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## Windjammer

khanasifm said:


> looks like these were ccs mirages from ccs sqdn


*
No, in Indus Viper 2013, it were No 7 (Bandits) Squadron Mirages, in the illustration below, you can see all the participant aircraft.*

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## Jango

khanasifm said:


> http://www.pafwallpapers.com/aircraft_gallery/Mirage_gallery/mirage_ccs_runway_02.jpg



Is that a arrestor wire hub on the bottom left of the picture?


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## S-A-B-E-R->

nuclearpak said:


> Is that a arrestor wire hub on the bottom left of the picture?



i think its a flair chaff dispenser Housing

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## Jango

S-A-B-E-R-> said:


> i think its a flair chaff dispenser Housing



I am referring to the orange structure on the ground.


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## S-A-B-E-R->

nuclearpak said:


> I am referring to the orange structure on the ground.



oh ok.........


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## fatman17

........Pilot Officer Fahad Qazi received all the three trophies for securing first position in humanities subjects, best performance in Aero-Sciences subjects and overall best performance in academics for 130 General Duty (Pilot) course.......

another TopGun under construction...

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## fatman17

*Paris Air Show Is Sold Out; Big Names Are Coming*


Apr. 1, 2013 - 05:57PM | By ZACHARY FRYER-BIGGS

WASHINGTON &#8212; Despite a sluggish defense market, organizers of the biannual Paris Air Show, set to kick off June 17, have already sold all of the show&#8217;s exhibition space and are anticipating bustling crowds......

_is the JFT going to Paris?_


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## Jango

@Windjammer...

WHat does LP mean?

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## Windjammer

nuclearpak said:


> @Windjammer...
> 
> WHat does LP mean?


 @nuclearpak 

Rough guess.
LRF.....Laser Range Finder.
LP...... Laser Pod. ???

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## Jango

Windjammer said:


> @nuclearpak
> 
> Rough guess.
> LRF.....Laser Range Finder.
> LP...... Laser Pod. ???



Most probably, as LRF is 1635 m!


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## muse

That's 1.6 Km, that's really really close -- can that be right?


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## Munir

Laser point(er) active. First you select area then the laser will fire up and that is called armed LP. Before that indeed the laser range (finder) is active. It is needed to calculate release and impact.


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## Jango

Munir said:


> Laser point(er) active. First you select area then the laser will fire up and that is called armed LP. Before that indeed the laser range (finder) is active. It is needed to calculate release and impact.



So LRF is going to calculate for you that where are you going to shoot from?
@Windjammer, isn't this pic from a C-130 FLIR? If so, then why is LRF on this screen...as the delivery system isn't the C-130 itself unlike AC-130, rather it is a different plane, and the parameters for another plane might be different.


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## Munir

You need range calculation for SAW and targeting calculation. You can do that with radar or Laser. This laser calculates the range. A bigger and better version of laser range finders used in golf or sniper activity.


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## Bratva

nuclearpak said:


> So LRF is going to calculate for you that where are you going to shoot from?
> @Windjammer, isn't this pic from a C-130 FLIR? If so, then why is LRF on this screen...as the delivery system isn't the C-130 itself unlike AC-130, rather it is a different plane, and the parameters for another plane might be different.



This pic is of F-16


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## Windjammer

nuclearpak said:


> So LRF is going to calculate for you that where are you going to shoot from?
> @Windjammer, isn't this pic from a C-130 FLIR? If so, then why is LRF on this screen...as the delivery system isn't the C-130 itself unlike AC-130, rather it is a different plane, and the parameters for another plane might be different.


 @nuclearpak 






The image is most likely from sniper XR Pod.....perhaps @Oscar can clarify this.


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## Jango

Ok then, if its a F-16 sniper pod, that explains LRF...but didnt you get the pic from Alan Warnes article about PAFs C130 flir?

You posted a couple of images and some descriptions with them if I remember correctly. I'll comb through the threads and try and find it out.


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## Windjammer

Yes, the article focused on Star Safire and Brite Star systems and also other systems in use by the PAF....however he didn't say this was actually from a C-130 FLIR.....maybe some other person can shed light on the subject.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/220473-star-safire-brite-star-systems-paf.html

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/236765-paf-prowess.html

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## alimobin memon

Windjammer said:


> @nuclearpak
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The image is most likely from sniper XR Pod.....perhaps @Oscar can clarify this.



Its sniper Pod Paf got them with Blk52+



alimobin memon said:


> Its sniper Pod Paf got them with Blk52+



We also have different Targetting pods not specifically mentioned due to bought in small quantity


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## umair86pk

Other LDP in service are ATLIS II on F-16A/B and DART on Mirage V ROSE II/III


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## Windjammer

*
Seems i have totally missed the news, after No.17 (Tigers) and No.23 (Talons)....Rafiqui based No.20 Squadron (Cheetahs) is also equipped with F-7PGs. 
*

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## Tacticool

News appeared that we'll have one f-16 mlu in one month from TAI.
So we should have atleast 15+ till now.
Starting from november 2011 to march 2013.
any news?


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## Tacticool

News about j-10B?
When can we expect first deliveries?
China had finalized FC-1 design in 2009.
Why haven't they inducting it?


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## Windjammer

*
It's thumbs up from the PAF.*






*
I find this image of PAF training cadets nostalgic, it reminds one of the pilot's mission briefings in 1965 war. *

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## Windjammer

*The Need For Speed.*

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## fatman17

Windjammer said:


> *
> It's thumbs up from the PAF.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> I find this image of PAF training cadets nostalgic, it reminds one of the pilot's mission briefings in 1965 war. *



damn those guys are young....!


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## Jango

fatman17 said:


> damn those guys are young....!



Sir jee ab flying officer itna hi hoga na!

Equivalent to a lieutenant in the army


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## fatman17

&#8226;On Thursday, Pakistan Air Force (PAF) jets bombed Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan (TTP) and Lakshar-e-Islam (LI) hideouts in Ghaibi Neeka area of Sipah and the Nakai area of Malikdinkhel in the Tirah valley, Khyber agency, killing two LI fighters and one TTP member.[3]

&#8226;On Thursday, PAF jets bombed militant hideouts in Kotkhel area of Orakzai agency, killing eight.[10]

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Windjammer said:


> *The Need For Speed.*



i bet you a million bucks it was Walid ("Stealth") who took that picture

i'd love to borrow a runway and a Gixer for a few hours 

_______________________________________________________________



and on a side note:

74 years ago today

PAF MILESTONE: PAF Draws 'First Blood' On 10 April 1959




> On 10 April 1959, on the occasion of the
> Islamic Eid ul-Fitr festival holiday in Pakistan,
> an Indian Air Force (IAF) English Electric
> Canberra B(I)58 intruded into Pakistani
> airspace on a photo reconnaissance mission.
> 
> Two PAF F-86F Sabres from No. 15
> Squadron on Air Defence Alert (ADA) were
> scrambled from Peshawar Air Base to
> intercept the IAF intruder. The Sabre pilots
> were Flt. Lt. M. N. Butt (leader) and Flt. Lt.
> M. Yunus (wingman)(Later Air Vice Marshal)
> whereas Pilot Officer Rab Nawaz was the on-
> duty Air Defence Controller forthis mission.
> 
> Nawaz successfully vectored both Sabres to
> the location of the high-flying Canberra. Butt
> attempted to bring down the Canberra by
> firing his Sabre's machine guns but the
> Canberra was flying at an altitude of more
> than 50,000 feet - beyond the operational
> ceiling of the F-86F.
> 
> When Yunus took over from his leader, the
> Canberra suddenly lost height while executing
> a turn over Rawalpindi.
> 
> Yunus grabbed this opportunity and fired a burst from
> his 12.7 mm guns that struck the Canberra at an
> altitude of 47,500 feet and brought it down
> over Rawat, near Rawalpindi.
> 
> Thus, PAF drew 'first blood' against the IAF. '55-5005'
> was the serial number of the F-86F Sabre that was
> flown by Flt.Lt. Yunus that day. Both the
> occupants of the IAF Canberra, namely Sqn.
> Ldr. J.C. Sen Gupta (pilot) and Flt. Lt. S.N.
> Rampal (navigator) from the IAF's No. 106
> Sqn., ejected and were taken prisoner by
> Pakistani authorities and were subsequently
> released after remaining in detention for
> some time.

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## Bratva

@Stealth Haan bhai Walid ye kia sun rahy hay hum?

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## Windjammer

*
How Cool Is This Guys.!!*

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## Windjammer

*The Pride And The Passion is..... PAF.
*

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## Slav Defence

Windjammer said:


> *The Pride And The Passion is..... PAF.
> *



excellent post...windy...i wonder why the hell these Americans and Europeans only show poor women who face domestic violence and why not these brave women of Pakistan..and no media person even makes film on such power full females.

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## Windjammer

Slav Defence said:


> excellent post...windy...i wonder why the hell these Americans and Europeans only show poor women who face domestic violence and why not these brave women of Pakistan..and no media person even makes film on such power full females.


 @Slav Defence
Actually once the female pilots qualified, they did receive major media coverage, in-fact i remember all the major English dailies carried articles with pictures....here's a CNN report.

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## Fieldmarshal

Windjammer said:


> *The Pride And The Passion is..... PAF.
> *



dont wanna sound rude but
the lady in the first pic seems "burdened", if u look at her stance.

A male officer with a stance like that would be crucified.


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## S-A-B-E-R->

Fieldmarshal said:


> dont wanna sound rude but
> the lady in the first pic seems "burdened", if u look at her stance.
> 
> A male officer with a stance like that would be crucified.



i dont think she is burdened i think her smaller profile and the bulky ness of flight suit is making her look droopy. Dude guys r squared shouldered more than girls so.... any way i dont think it effect her skills.

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## Chak Bamu

Men generally have better posture than females. This is no grounds for passing discriminating comments about abilities of female PAF pilots. PAF knows what it is doing.


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## air marshal

*Admiral Asif Sandila, Chief of the Naval Staff, Pakistan Navy poses for a group photograph along with Air Marshal Sohail Gul Khan, Chairman PAC Board Kamra and key staff at Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, Kamra - April 11, 2013.*

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## fatman17

Sunday, April 14, 2013 


*CJ advises PAF to uphold constitution*

Staff Report 


ISLAMABAD: Chief Justice Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry has observed that the extra-constitutional interventions tainted Pakistan&#8217;s constitutional history with successive coup d&#8217;états and dissolutions of elected governments and resultantly, non-state elements became active and created an atmosphere of political and democratic instability.

He was addressing a delegation of PAF Air War College, Karachi, comprising officers and the course participants, that visited the Supreme Court, here on Saturday.

The CJP lamented that it is unfortunate that there had been several instances of constitutional deviations and subversions in the history of Pakistan. 

He also urged that as the country is faced with challenges of terrorism, extra-judicial killings, nepotism and corruption, therefore, it is high time that all the institutions of Pakistan join hands in bridging institutional gaps and removing rifts in order to turn Pakistan into a true welfare state. Quoting Quaid-e-Azam&#8217;s presidential address to the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan on August 11, 1947 he said: &#8220;We have to ensure that the rule of law and respect for fundamental rights which are the central components of a democratic government must prevail in the country.&#8221;

He said that the democratic governance promotes economic development, peace and security. &#8220;As officers of the Armed Forces, you have a crucial role to play in the prevalence of democratic rule and harmony in Pakistan.&#8221; Justice Chaudhry advised the PAF officers and participants to study the basic features of the Constitution and the interpretation of constitutional provisions by the Superior Courts, saying the Constitution has clearly defined the role and powers of every organ of State and this trichotomy of power aims at strengthening democracy in Pakistan by ensuring a system of checks and balances.

He said that the Supreme Court is the apex Court in the judicial hierarchy of Pakistan and is the Court of ultimate jurisdiction. It is the final arbiter of disputes and the protector of constitutional norms and guarantees. The Supreme Court exercises original, appellate and advisory jurisdiction. It possesses exclusive original jurisdiction for the settlement of inter-governmental (Federal/Provincial) disputes. The Supreme Court may also exercise original jurisdiction with respect to the enforcement of fundamental rights if the case involves a question of public importance. The Court also exercises advisory jurisdiction where the President of Pakistan may refer to it a question of law of public importance for its opinion. In the exercise of its review jurisdiction, the Supreme Court is empowered to review its previous judicial decisions. The decisions of the Supreme Court are binding on all other courts of the country and the Constitution commands the executive and the judicial authorities in the country to act in aid of the Supreme Court. Any law, order or action of the public authorities, which is inconsistent with, or contrary to, the Constitution, is liable to be annulled by the Supreme Court under the power of judicial review.

The underlying object of judicial review is to check the abuse of power by public functionaries and to ensure a just and fair treatment to citizens in accordance with the law and Constitution. 

In the case of Sindh High Court Bar Association, the Supreme Court has had the occasion to interpret Article 245 of the Constitution where it reiterated that it is the constitutional duty of the Armed Forces to defend Pakistan against external aggression and act in aid of civil power whenever called upon to do so. 

Lauding the PAF, he said the Pakistan Air Force is one of the best air forces of the world. It had proved its metal in the battlefields not once, but many a time in our history. We are proud of brave warriors like Flight Lieutenant Rashid Minhas and Squadron Leader M. M. Alam and all other fighter pilots who sacrificed their lives and secured a decisive victory for Pakistan during the 1965 war, observed the Chief Justice.


----------



## Tacticool

air marshal said:


> *Admiral Asif Sandila, Chief of the Naval Staff, Pakistan Navy poses for a group photograph along with Air Marshal Sohail Gul Khan, Chairman PAC Board Kamra and key staff at Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, Kamra - April 11, 2013.*
> 138 means 3rd squadron is under developement.
> 
> Block 2 should have been there instead of this 138 numbered................


----------



## Tacticool

How many f-16s are being upgraded in turkey till this date.


----------



## Gentelman

ISLAMABAD: Commander-in-Chief,
Russian Federation Air Force, Lt. Gen.
Viktor Nikolayevich Bondarev visited Air
Headquarters here on Monday. It is the
first ever visit of Russian Air Chief to
Pakistan. Earlier, Air Chief Marshal Tahir
Rafique Butt, Chief of the Air Staff,
Pakistan Air Force had his maiden visit to
Russia in August 2012, for participation in
the International Military Conference.
Lt Gen. Viktor Nikolayevich Bondarev is
visiting Pakistan on the invitation of Air
Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt, Chief of
the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force, said a
press release issued by PAF.
On his arrival at Air Headquarters, the
distinguished guest was received by Air
Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt, Chief of
the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force.
A smartly turned out contingent of
Pakistan Air Force presented the Guard of
Honour. After reviewing the Guard of
Honour, he was introduced to Principal
Staff Officers of Pakistan Air Force.
The visiting guest paid homage to the
martyrs of PAF by laying floral wreath on
Martyrs Monument at Air Headquarters,
Islamabad.
Later on, he called on Air Chief Marshal
Tahir Rafique Butt in his office. Both
remained together for some time and
discussed matters of professional interest.
The delegation also attended a briefing at
Air Headquarters on the organization, role
and functioning of Pakistan Air Force.
Later in the day, the Russian Delegation
also visited Air Defence Command,
Pakistan Air Force. The Delegation
attended a briefing on the working of Air
Defence Command and also visited Air
Defence Operation Centre.
On their arrival, the Delegation was
received by Air Vice Marshal Ejaz
Mahmood Malik, Air Officer Commanding,
Air Defence Command, Pakistan Air
Force.
Source: Directorate of Media Affair, PAF










Bolivian Airforce purchase of K8
The Bolivian Air Force (Fuerza Aérea
Boliviana) has purchased 6 K-8 Karakorum
fighter jet trainer at cost of US$58 million
from China. The Bolivian Air Force also
plans to employ the K-8 Karakorum in light
attack role. The K-8 Karakorum fighter jet
trainer was jointly developed by the
Nanchang Aircraft Manufacturing
Corporation. Pakistan Aeronautical
Complex.

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## fatman17

^interesting news!


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## Blackpearl

Question:
Does PAF pilots carry any service issued weapon / side arm on board aircraft while flying? If yes then which one, i havnt seen a pic of any pilot wearing G suit / maps with a holstered side arm?


----------



## Jango

Blackpearl said:


> Question:
> Does PAF pilots carry any service issued weapon / side arm on board aircraft while flying? If yes then which one, i havnt seen a pic of any pilot wearing G suit / maps with a holstered side arm?


Maybe it is only in war time situations e.g when the pilots are actually going into hostile territory on a mission.

We haven't seen any offensive missions lately have we?

Note, this is also just a speculative guess, nothing more.


----------



## Blackpearl

PAF pilots flying bombing missions in FATA areas are prone to land (parachuted) incase aircarft is hit, in a hostile, terrorist controlled territory. this warrents carrying side arm as a personal defence weapon. anyway, what is the standard weapon used by PAF pilots


----------



## S-A-B-E-R->

i have seen PA aviation Pilots carry glocks on there thighs.


----------



## 420canada

i remember when i was 8 my Khala husband friend use to work for PAF. He use to fly i think was it the mig-19 ? or F-7 i do not remember but i remember he had a issued side arm that he still had on when he went into his jet. old times tho. like 1993 .


----------



## fatman17

420canada said:


> i remember when i was 8 my Khala husband friend use to work for PAF. He use to fly i think was it the mig-19 ? or F-7 i do not remember but i remember he had a issued side arm that he still had on when he went into his jet. old times tho. like 1993 .



in times of war, ops and excercises they carry their side arm

*Avic Pitches Y-12F Aircar for 19-seat Market Dubai Air Show*
by Thierry Dubois


Avic unveiled the Y-12F Aircar 19-seat twin turboprop at the Dubai Air Show.

Avic unveiled the Y-12F Aircar 19-seat twin turboprop, an upgrade from the Y-12E with a glass cockpit and retractable landing gear. The cockpit is fitted with Honeywell Apex avionics; Pratt & Whitney Canada is supplying 1,100-shp PT6A-65B turboprops.


Fast cruise and long-range speeds stand at 230 and 210 knots, respectively. Takeoff distance is predicted to be 1,770 feet. Full passenger range is said to reach 700 nm.

Efficiency, if measured in pounds-per-mile-per-hour, is 2.25 times better than that of the Y-12E, according to chief designer Li Xianzheng.

Tags: AvicChinaAircarY-12F
FILED UNDER: Air Transport and Cargo Aircraft, Business Aviation Aircraft


----------



## fatman17

*Mectron's MAR-1 to be operational in Pakistan next year*:

Robert Hewson, Rio de Janeirio:


2013-04-18

Brazil's Mectron will start deliveries of operational MAR-1 anti-radiation missiles to Pakistan next year.

Under a contract announced by Brazil and Pakistan in 2008, Mectron has now completed MAR-1 integration with Pakistan's Mirage III/V aircraft and has also handed over the mission planning, logistics, and support equipment, plus MAR-1 training rounds and simulators to the Pakistan Air Force (PAF). However, some final development testing remains to be done with the missile in Brazil. Mectron says once this is completed the way will be clear to deliver fully operational 'warshot' missiles to both Brazil and Pakistan. 

"MAR deliveries will begin next year and we have to deliver to Pakistan next year," stressed one Mectron source, pointing to the company's contractual obligations. In December 2008, Brazil's Chamber of Foreign Commerce ( Camara de Comercio Exterior ) approved export funding guarantees for the sale of 100 MAR-1 missiles to Pakistan. 

Speaking at the LAAD 2013 defence exhibition, held in Rio de Janeiro from 9-12 April, a senior official stated : "The plans for Brazil and Pakistan are progressing in parallel, but Pakistan is pressing harder because it needs the missile more urgently. In Brazil the FAB [Força Aérea Brasileira] wants to operate the MAR-1 on its A-1M (upgraded Embraer AMX) aircraft and is waiting for that aircraft to be properly established in service so it can do the missile integration work in one pass. For the PAF, the Mirage integration is already finished; that work started in Brazil and was completed in Pakistan." 

Mectron has integrated the MAR-1 on the Mirage using a stand-alone weapon controller with a separate computer that is independent of the aircraft's other systems. Mectron notes that while the PAF also plans to integrate the MAR-1 on its JF-17 Thunder lightweight fighters, that work has not yet been placed under contract. "We are not dealing with the Chinese today," said a Mectron official, adding that the Mirage integration work did not involve Dassault or any contact with France. 

In November 2012, China's LOEC exhibited a new anti-radiation missile, the LOEC LD-10, that it said was intended to equip aircraft including the JF-17. A Mectron official commented: "We know China is developing an ARM, but we don't know if it works. We know that our missile does." 

JDW

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## Jango

fatman17 said:


> ...that work started in Brazil and was completed in Pakistan."



What does this mean???

Did we send any aircraft to Brazil or were these tests of another kind?

Another thing is that the guy commented that they didn't deal with the French for integration with the Mirage, while he says that they haven't contacted the Chinese for the JFT. So why would they need to contact the Chinese for JFT integration (a joint venture) while they can do it alone with Mirage?


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## Mani2020

^^^^ i didnt understand this non sense on the part of PAF if the news is true ...why the hell should they focus on the integration of MAR-1 on a decades old junk aircrafts like mirages why not straight away go with jf-17 ...even the article mentions that integration with jf-17 is not on the table right now and jf-17 might use chinese anti-radiation missile then wats the point in contracting for the missiles from brazil for aircarfts that have no future and are destined to retire soon 

PAF is making mess of everything ....they have no vision just messing up things ....firstly fc-20 disappear from the scene then no block-2 and now this ...irk ...



btw once again those who said way back in 2011 that MAR-1s have been delivered according to their insider sources have become a laughing stock ....lol these insiders and their agents

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## fatman17

nuclearpak said:


> What does this mean???
> 
> Did we send any aircraft to Brazil or were these tests of another kind?
> 
> Another thing is that the guy commented that they didn't deal with the French for integration with the Mirage, while he says that they haven't contacted the Chinese for the JFT. So why would they need to contact the Chinese for JFT integration (a joint venture) while they can do it alone with Mirage?



Brazil has Mirages III/V also - the work was replicated on PAF Mirages ROSE only. they dont have JFT. pretty simple really.



Mani2020 said:


> ^^^^ i didnt understand this non sense on the part of PAF if the news is true ...why the hell should they focus on the integration of MAR-1 on a decades old junk aircrafts like mirages why not straight away go with jf-17 ...even the article mentions that integration with jf-17 is not on the table right now and jf-17 might use chinese anti-radiation missile then wats the point in contracting for the missiles from brazil for aircarfts that have no future and are destined to retire soon
> 
> PAF is making mess of everything ....they have no vision just messing up things ....firstly fc-20 disappear from the scene then no block-2 and now this ...irk ...
> 
> 
> 
> btw once again those who said way back in 2011 that MAR-1s have been delivered according to their insider sources have become a laughing stock ....lol these insiders and their agents



earlier news was about 'integration' only. people can mix things up.


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## Jango

Mani2020 said:


> ^^^^ i didnt understand this non sense on the part of PAF if the news is true ...why the hell should they focus on the integration of MAR-1 on a decades old junk aircrafts like mirages why not straight away go with jf-17 ...even the article mentions that integration with jf-17 is not on the table right now and jf-17 might use chinese anti-radiation missile then wats the point in contracting for the missiles from brazil for aircarfts that have no future and are destined to retire soon



Because they are still going to be our frontline bomber aircraft for the next 3 or so years.

Tell me when was the first JFT rolled out from the production line? ANd how many we have now? And what is the requirement? So Mirages are now going to be put in museums anytime soon, those ROSE Mirages are still going to do a good job. First IFR probe on the Mirage shows the future plans for Mirage in minds of PAF.


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## Mani2020

fatman17 said:


> earlier news was about 'integration' only. people can mix things up.



nah sir ji ...i clearly remember many members claiming the deliveries of MAR-1s time and time again even some claimed about C-130s that were in brazil for MAR-1 deliveries ...

about integration i still cant pick why the hell would PAF want these missiles to be integrated only on junk aircarfts like mirages that should be retired as soon as possible

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## Jango

Mani2020 said:


> ....should be retired as soon as possible



Should be...but aren't going to be.

Replacing 150 odd aircraft is no easy task mind you.


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## Thorough Pro

You are so right, PAF has no vision. It wasn't PAF that signed the deal in 2008 when the missile was only on papers, Brazilians came to PAF themselves to honour the "PDF fan boy visionaries" like yourself.




Mani2020 said:


> PAF is making mess of everything ....*they have no vision just messing up things* ....firstly fc-20 disappear from the scene then no block-2 and now this ...irk ...

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## Bratva

IIRC,,, In 2011 Dubai airshow,, JDW published a long article on JF-17 and in that article, JF-17 project director AVM Javaid Ahmad clearly said, MAR-1 anti radiation missile has been integrated on JF-17 and it was the first thing that we integrated on JF-17....Was project director lying ? 

Or is it Training round was integrated with JF-17? and also in last year karachi expo, for the first time we saw MAR-1 with JF-17, so it was actually a training round?


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## Bratva

One more thing, We all thought when PAF signed the deal, MAR-1 was already in production phase and it would be delivered in one or two years. That 2011 JDW article made us think MAR-1 has been integrated and 2012 visual proof made us believe MAR-1 has actually been delivered but now today we came to know actual missile is yet to be produced

So it was a lie or a misconception on our behalf which led us to believe MAR-1 is in production phase?


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## Mani2020

Thorough Pro said:


> You are so right, PAF has no vision. It wasn't PAF that signed the deal in 2008 when the missile was only on papers, Brazilians came to PAF themselves to honour the "PDF fan boy visionaries" like yourself.



if you can read my post again i was referring to the integration of MAR-1 on mirages and not on jf-17...dont come to conclusions on your own....and dnt teach me wat paf has been upto no need to remind time and time again about the delays in the fc-20 and jf-17 block 2 programs and dnt even need to remind what happened to erieyes



nuclearpak said:


> Should be...but aren't going to be.
> 
> Replacing 150 odd aircraft is no easy task mind you.



and whose fault is that ?


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## Jango

Mani2020 said:


> and whose fault is that ?



Because of the JFT program lagging behind...right now the third squadron hasn't stood up, let alone replacing the ROSE Mirages.


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## Mani2020

nuclearpak said:


> Because of the JFT program lagging behind...right now the third squadron hasn't stood up, let alone replacing the ROSE Mirages.



thats what i am talking about, doesnt it come under the fault of paf


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## Jango

Mani2020 said:


> thats what i am talking about, doesnt it come under the fault of paf



So they shouldn't have bought the Mirages?


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## Mani2020

nuclearpak said:


> So they shouldn't have bought the Mirages?



nah i never said that ...i am referring to delays in fc-20 (if ACM tanveer mahmood stood correct in his claim in 2009) and jf-17 block2 , You have so many aircrafts to retire ....if you see PAF has more than 50% of aircrafts that need to be retired sooner ....most of the fleet comprises of 3rd generation aircrafts


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## Jango

Mani2020 said:


> nah i never said that ...i am referring to delays in fc-20 (if ACM tanveer mahmood stood correct in his claim in 2009) and jf-17 block2 , You have so many aircrafts to retire ....if you see PAF has more than 50% of aircrafts that need to be retired sooner ....most of the fleet comprises of 3rd generation aircrafts



In truth, FC-20 was hyped up to epic proportions by us, the fanboys, the enthusiasts etc. IMO we are going down the same road with the new Chinese stealth aircraft.

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## fatman17

Mani2020 said:


> nah sir ji ...i clearly remember many members claiming the deliveries of MAR-1s time and time again even some claimed about C-130s that were in brazil for MAR-1 deliveries ...
> 
> about integration i still cant pick why the hell would PAF want these missiles to be integrated only on *junk aircarfts* like mirages that should be retired as soon as possible



thats your POV however the ROSE squadrons have been modernised for tactical / night attack (~40 a/c). the balance III/V's need replacement but PAF is not going to replace the mirages aircraft for aircraft (one for one) because JFT is superior in capability v. these III/V's so the ratio could be 1:2 or 1:3.

as far as FC-20 goes, my view was and is that the FC-20 can only be in PAF colours if it has a chinese engine. this is taking longer than earlier expectations.

have a nice day....

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## araz

Thorough Pro said:


> You are so right, PAF has no vision. It wasn't PAF that signed the deal in 2008 when the missile was only on papers, Brazilians came to PAF themselves to honour the "PDF fan boy visionaries" like yourself.



Yara.
Criticize where you have insight. We arent exactly rolling in money. If you call M3/5s junk why do you think we have been buying junk from all over the world ? What other options do we have with nonexistent funds? You can have all the vision in the world but if your pocket does not allow it your vision and the reality is what we see in PAF today.
Araz


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## Thorough Pro

You misunderstood my post. I was being sarcastic in response to @ Mani's post.

In 2007/08 when PAF signed this deal with Mecton, JF-17 was still in pampers, and PAF only had F-16 as the only front line jet with Mirage following as the only ground attack capable jet at that time (A5 was already considered obsolete then). What PAF did was to use the best (and only) available option for integrating MAR-1a and that too in a "Jogaro" way with stand alone computer and control system (probably to by pass French for cost cutting and knowing that this is only a temp solution).

Now that Thunder has come a long way since then, integrating western weaponry will definitely be in PAF's mind, but again integrating western weapons with Chinese Radars, avionics, and fire control systems will be a time consuming and a costly exercise. For JF-17, PAF might find it easier to integrate Chinese ARM (LD10) instead, that is if it meets the performance criteria. 



araz said:


> Yara.
> Criticize where you have insight. We arent exactly rolling in money. If you call M3/5s junk why do you think we have been buying junk from all over the world ? What other options do we have with nonexistent funds? You can have all the vision in the world but if your pocket does not allow it your vision and the reality is what we see in PAF today.
> Araz


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## That Guy

nuclearpak said:


> In truth, FC-20 was hyped up to epic proportions by us, the fanboys, the enthusiasts etc. IMO we are going down the same road with the new Chinese stealth aircraft.



Correct me if I'm wrong, but there was and is no delay in the FC-20's delivery as it was and is to be inducted by the 2014-15 time frame and no sooner, which means that there is still 1-2 years for the delivery to take place. The deal is still on, we just have to be patient and not make claims, just as those made by certain members on this forum saying that the FC-20 would be delivered in 2012-13.



fatman17 said:


> thats your POV however the ROSE squadrons have been modernised for tactical / night attack (~40 a/c). the balance III/V's need replacement but PAF is not going to replace the mirages aircraft for aircraft (one for one) because JFT is superior in capability v. these III/V's so the ratio could be 1:2 or 1:3.
> 
> as far as FC-20 goes, my view was and is that the FC-20 can only be in PAF colours if it has a chinese engine. this is taking longer than earlier expectations.
> 
> have a nice day....



What earlier expectations? I've always been of the belief that the FC-20 would be delivered by 2014-15 and not any time sooner. This was the original time frame agreed upon, why is it that people keep claiming otherwise?

Or am I just talking out of my behind?

By all means, tell me I'm wrong and rip me a new whole...just be gentle about it please.


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## Gentelman

Thorough Pro said:


> You misunderstood my post. I was being sarcastic in response to @ Mani's post.
> 
> In 2007/08 when PAF signed this deal with Mecton, JF-17 was still in pampers, and PAF only had F-16 as the only front line jet with Mirage following as the only ground attack capable jet at that time (A5 was already considered obsolete then). What PAF did was to use the best (and only) available option for integrating MAR-1a and that too in a "Jogaro" way with stand alone computer and control system (probably to by pass French for cost cutting and knowing that this is only a temp solution).
> 
> Now that Thunder has come a long way since then, integrating western weaponry will definitely be in PAF's mind, but again integrating western weapons with Chinese Radars, avionics, and fire control systems will be a time consuming and a costly exercise. For JF-17, PAF might find it easier to integrate Chinese ARM (LD10) instead, that is if it meets the performance criteria.



PAF has the source codes and capability and test centers to integrate any weaponary at home
and
Mar-1 was brought for JFT and is integrated with JF-17
End of story&#8230;&#8230;


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## Gentelman

ISLAMABAD: A five-member US
delegation headed by Principal
Deputy Assistant Secretary of
Defence, Dr. Peter Lavoy called on
Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air
Force, Air Chief Marshal Tahir
Rafique Butt at Air Headquarters
here on Monday.
Chief of (ODRP) Office of Defence
Representatives to Pakistan, Lt Gen.
Gregory Biscone was also present on
the occasion, said a press release
issued by PAF here. Matters
pertaining to mutual interest and
various areas of further cooperation
were discussed during the meeting.
at Wednesday, April 24, 2013


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## alimobin memon

From The Beginning I said that The j10 is not a big deal as people are expecting. Even I told you guys that the Avionics in j10 can be equipped in jf17 The fact is only Payload and range might be too. Klj7 has been updated to v2 which has equal range as j10's klj10 as so weapons integration is same as all plaaf jets operational in present including j11 except russian origin missile's. 

FYI I am pretty sure if PAF is now looking for is a solid update to JF17 and Stealth Fighter in coming years ... just so you know the stealth fighter wont be in low numbers rather the fleet will increase gradually every year to an 80+ but chinese jets are taking time. J10b is not the solution guys


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## Windjammer

*If Looks Could Kill.*

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## DANGER-ZONE

Windjammer said:


> *If Looks Could Kill.*








Ohh ... Ms.Fatima, see on the extreme Left, having JAGGA pose among the girls.
BTW she has crashed an F-7s last year or year before that. I am totally against giving Girls fighter aircraft, they are not capable of doing this.

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## araz

Thorough Pro said:


> You misunderstood my post. I was being sarcastic in response to @ Mani's post.
> 
> In 2007/08 when PAF signed this deal with Mecton, JF-17 was still in pampers, and PAF only had F-16 as the only front line jet with Mirage following as the only ground attack capable jet at that time (A5 was already considered obsolete then). What PAF did was to use the best (and only) available option for integrating MAR-1a and that too in a "Jogaro" way with stand alone computer and control system (probably to by pass French for cost cutting and knowing that this is only a temp solution).
> 
> Now that Thunder has come a long way since then, integrating western weaponry will definitely be in PAF's mind, but again integrating western weapons with Chinese Radars, avionics, and fire control systems will be a time consuming and a costly exercise. For JF-17, PAF might find it easier to integrate Chinese ARM (LD10) instead, that is if it meets the performance criteria.



Sorry if I did misunderstand you. There were certain other cogent reasons for getting MAR1 which was never our first choice in any case. You will see the development in the next year or so. The other problem which PAF faces is the chinese are increasing their capabilitiesa leaps and bounds, so what you plan now with thew knowledge at hand becomes invalid due to a chinese equivalent on the market. For Ease on induction it is expedient that we go the chinese way however this is not always the case and PAF would always find 2-3 altewrnate sources for equipment just so no one becomes complacent nd we can choose the best.
Araz

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## fatman17

That Guy said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but there was and is no delay in the FC-20's delivery as it was and is to be inducted by the 2014-15 time frame and no sooner, which means that there is still 1-2 years for the delivery to take place. The deal is still on, we just have to be patient and not make claims, just as those made by certain members on this forum saying that the FC-20 would be delivered in 2012-13.
> 
> 
> 
> What earlier expectations? I've always been of the belief that the FC-20 would be delivered by 2014-15 and not any time sooner. This was the original time frame agreed upon, why is it that people keep claiming otherwise?
> 
> Or am I just talking out of my behind?
> 
> By all means, tell me I'm wrong and rip me a new whole...just be gentle about it please.



no we dont want to do that...but when evry one screams sher aya, sher aya too many times it becomes reality - J10/FC20 was never, repeat never going to be delivered with a russian engine - the delays in the development of the WS type chinese powerplant put paid to any quick deliveries. the J10 was offered there is no doubt about it.

then the economy came crashing down....


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## Jango

That Guy said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but there was and is no delay in the FC-20's delivery as it was and is to be inducted by the 2014-15 time frame and no sooner, which means that there is still 1-2 years for the delivery to take place. The deal is still on, we just have to be patient and not make claims, just as those made by certain members on this forum saying that the FC-20 would be delivered in 2012-13.



And that is how it should be...a J-10 with a Chinese engine.

Things were so hyped up a year or so back it seemed as if the jet is coming tomorrow.


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## fatman17

*PAF Flight Safety Officers graduation ceremony*

Staff Reporter


Sunday, April 21, 2013 - Karachi&#8212;Graduation ceremony of No 64 Flight Safety Officer Course was held at PAF Base, Masroor. Air Marshal Farhat Hussain Khan Vice Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force was the Chief Guest on the occasion. The Chief Guest awarded the certificates to the successful participants. 

Flight Lieutenant Khadija Awan bagged the Chief of the Air Staff Best Graduate&#8217;s Trophy for best performance in the course. The course comprised officers from Pakistan Air Force, Army, Navy and friendly countries, which include: Bangladesh, Iraq, Nepal, Sri Lanka, Sudan and Nigeria.

The Chief Guest, while emphasizing upon the graduating officers for the importance of Safety in every aspect of the aviation industry highlighted the significance of Flight Safety Officers in prevention of accidents. While stressing upon the role of FSOs, he said that only sincere efforts, dedication and total commitment can help them to achieve a safer environment and this could only be possible if they adopt safety as a value in their lives. The Chief Guest appreciated the efforts put in by the Institute in imparting quality education and blending theory with practice. 

Earlier, The Chief Guest was received by Air Commodore Noor Elahi Bajwa Officer Commanding Institute of Air Safety.

a lady officer...

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## That Guy

fatman17 said:


> no we dont want to do that...but when evry one screams sher aya, sher aya too many times it becomes reality - J10/FC20 was never, repeat never going to be delivered with a russian engine - the delays in the development of the WS type chinese powerplant put paid to any quick deliveries. the J10 was offered there is no doubt about it.
> 
> then the economy came crashing down....



But who even said that it was going to come with a chinese engine? There is no reference to that at all, and even if you're right, again there is no real delay as of yet, because the deadline for the fighter's delivery is still 1-2 years away.



nuclearpak said:


> And that is how it should be...a J-10 with a Chinese engine.
> 
> Things were so hyped up a year or so back it seemed as if the jet is coming tomorrow.



I hate it when people hype things up, they end up spreading false rumors.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

And im flying a bloody cessna..


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## razgriz19

danger-zone said:


> Ohh ... Ms.Fatima, see on the extreme Left, having JAGGA pose among the girls.
> BTW she has crashed an F-7s last year or year before that. I am totally against giving Girls fighter aircraft, they are not capable of doing this.



I'm pretty darn sure that if SHE crashed it, pilot error or something, she wouldn't be flying at all.
If she is still flying then it was a technical fault. The maintenance guys are to be blamed for it, which are all MALE!

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## MastanKhan

razgriz19 said:


> I'm pretty darn sure that if SHE crashed it, pilot error or something, she wouldn't be flying at all.
> If she is still flying then it was a technical fault. The maintenance guys are to be blamed for it, which are all MALE!



Hi,

Pakistani pilots pose so 'gay' in many a pictures---. They need to stand straight like men---like warriors that they are---hands on their backs---straight postures---officers need to act like officers---not some college kids---.

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## Peregrine

^ LOL  After being a defence expert...Mr Mastan has taken up the role of "how to boost your masculinity" advisor.

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## fatman17

*1965 SHUHADA & GALLANTRY:* 


*Squadron Leader:*

Alauddin Ahmed - Sitara-i-Jurrat
Squadron Leader Alauddin Ahmed led his squadron in twenty combat missions against the Indian ground and air forces. His leadership throughout the operations was cool, courageous and most determined which inspired the greatest confidence amongst pilots of his formations and resulted in destruction of many Indian tanks and vehicles. In his last sortie, he attacked and blew up an important ammunition train at Gurdaspur rail-head in complete disregard to his personal safety. During this attack on September 13, his aircraft was damaged and was reported missing over enemy territory. Subsequently, it was confirmed that the officer died in this action. For his exemplary leadership, courage and valour, Squadron Leader Alauddin Ahmed was awarded Sitara-i-Juraat.

M A Qureshi &#8211; Sitara-i-Jurat
M S A Siddiqui &#8211; Sitara-i-Jurat

Muhammad Iqbal - Sitara-i-Jurrat 
Squadron Leader Muhammad Iqbal flew many operational missions which played a vital part in the success of the Pakistan Air Force during the India-Pakistan war. He carried out these missions with determination, enthusiasm, and outstanding ability and at great personal risk. His performance, throughout, was exemplary and highly inspiring for the personnel under his command. For his outstanding leadership, valour, loyalty and invaluable services to the Pakistan Air Force and the country, he was awarded Sitara-i-Juraat.

Munir Ahmed - Sitara-i-Jurrat
During the war a high-powered heavily defended radar station near Amritsar was attacked repeatedly by PAF fighters. In all these missions, Squadron Leader Munir hesitantly volunteered to fly without regard for his personal safety, exposed himself to intense ack-ack fire for long periods in attempts to locate and destroy the target. In the final successful attack on September 11, he made the supreme sacrifice when his aircraft was hit. Before his last sortie, Munir flew eight combat missions and shot down an IAF Gnat on September 10. For displaying courage and determination in the face of heavy odds and beyond the call of duty, Squadron Leader Munir-ud-Din Ahmed was awarded Sitara-i-Juraat.

Sarfraz Ahmed Rafiqui - Hilal-i-Jurrat 
On 6th September, 1965, Squadron Leader Sarfaraz Ahmed Rafiqui led a formation of three F-86 aircraft on a strike against Halwara airfield. Soon after crossing the Indian border Squadron Leader Rafiqui had been warned about a large number of enemy interceptors being in the air by the leader of a returning F-86 formation. He, however, continued his mission single-mindedly. On the way back, the formation was intercepted by about ten Hunter aircraft out of which Squadron Leader Rafiqui accounted for one in the first few seconds. After Squadron Leader Rafiqui shot down one Hunter aircraft, his guns jammed due to a defect and stopped firing upon which he refused to leave the battle area as he would have been perfectly justified to do; he, instead ordered his No. 2 to take over as leader and continue the engagement with the enemy. He himself now took up a defensive position in the formation in an attempt to give it as much protection as was possible by continuing fighting maneuvers in unarmed aircraft whilst the remainder proceeded to give battle to the enemy. This called for a quality of courage and dedication on the part of Squadron Leader Rafiqui equal to the best in the history of air-fighting. The end for him was never in doubt. He chose to disregard it and in the process, his aircraft was shot down and he was killed but not without his action enabling his formation to shoot down three more Hunter aircraft. Squadron Leader Rafiqui thus provided exemplary leadership in battle and displayed outstanding courage in the face of exceptionally strong opposition. His inspiring leadership and selfless example significantly affected the subsequent course of the air war in which the P.A.F. never failed to dictate terms to an overwhelmingly larger and better equipped enemy. Squadron Leader Rafiqui's conduct was clearly beyond the call of duty and conformed to the highest tradition of leadership and bravery in battle against overwhelming odds. For this and his earlier exploits, he is posthumously awarded Hilal-i-Juraat.


*Flight Lieutenant:* 

A S Khalid &#8211; Sitara-i-Jurat
A T M Aziz &#8211; Sitara-i-Jurat
M A Butt - Sitara-i-Jurat

Saifullah Khan - Sitara-i-Juraat
Flight Lieutenant Saifullah Khan Lodhi was a navigator of exceptional ability and a completely dedicated officer. He possessed unusual skill, enthusiasm and drive, which enabled him to make a valuable contribution towards operations. He undertook several operational missions most cheerfully and enthusiastically, invariably attaining outstanding results. It was on one such mission on 11 September 65, that he lost his life. For his extreme dedication to duty, Flight Lieutenant Saifullah Khan Lodhi was awarded Sitara-i-Juraat. 

Younus Hussain - Sitara-i-Juraat
Flight Lieutenant Younus Hussain fought in air battles aggressively, fearlessly and with great professional skill. During one such engagement, he fought singly against six enemy aircraft and shot down two Hunters. Though his own aircraft was damaged in this encounter, he managed to bring it back to base safely. On 6 September, while attacking Halwara airfield, his small formation was intercepted by a large number of enemy and, although his aircraft was hit, he refused to break off the engagement, in complete disregard of personal safety, and was reported missing from this mission. He became a symbol of courage and professional ability for other pilots. For his, valour, professional skill and devotion to duty he was awarded Sitara-i-Juraat.

*Flying Officer:* 

M A Khan &#8211; Sitara-i-Jurat
S S Azam &#8211; Sitara-i-Jurat

*Leading Aircraft Men:* 

Anwar Hussain Khan - Tumgha-i-Juraat 
Leading Aircraftman Anwar Hussain was on duty at a vital point. His position was rocketed by enemy aircraft and the place caught fire. Anwar Hussain was the only person on duty over there. He fought the fire single-handedly with the available fire appliances and managed to control it and thus saved expensive equipment. His death is an example of courage and unfaltering devotion to duty towards the service as well as to the country. He was awarded Tumgha-i-Juraat.




*1965 GALLANTRY AWARDS* 

*Air Marshal:* 

M. Nur Khan - Hilal-i-Juraat 
Air Marshal M Nur Khan assumed command of Pakistan Air Force in July 1965. During 1965 war he set a personal example by flying several operational missions that kept the morale of his officers and men at an exceptionally higher level. His inspiring leadership and selfless devotion to duty significantly affected the course of air war in which the PAF managed to dictate terms to an overwhelmingly larger and better equipped enemy. For his valour, courage and distinguished leadership during 1965 war, he was conferred upon the gallantry award of Hilal-e-Juraat.

*Group Captain:* 

Eric Gordon Hall - Sitara-i-Juraat
Group Captain Eric Gordon Hall in his capacity as Station Commander, Chaklala, played a very vital role during the war with India. All operations were conducted very successfully under exemplary guidance and inspiring leadership of Group Captain Eric Gordon Hall. No task was too hazardous for him. To set an example, he personally flew and led several operational missions that kept the morale of his officers and men at an exceptionally high level. For his courage and example beyond the call of duty, Group Captain Eric Gordan Hall was awarded Sitara-i-Juraat.

Mohammad Zafar Masud - Hilal-i-Juraat
As Commanding Officer of the most important operational station of the Pakistan Air Force, Group Captain Mohammad Zafar Masud showed great qualities of leadership, devotion to duty and organizing ability in the conduct of air operations against the enemy. On the day and night of 7th September, 1965 in particular, when the enemy made five successive attacks on our air fields and thier installations with Canberra bombers, Hunter and Mystery fighter bombers, the cool courage and determination with which the whole station faced the attacks and heavy damage inflicted by its fighters on the enemy aircraft, clearly indicated the high morale and professional efficiency achieved by the station personnel under the command of Group Captain Masud. For his contribution to the success of the Pakistan Air Force operation against the enemy during of the war, Group Captain Mohammad Zafar Masud was awarded Hilal-i-Juraat. 

*Wing Commander:* 

Ayaz Ahmed Khan - Sitara-i-Basalat
Wing Commander Ayaz Ahmed Khan displayed great perseverance, drive and initiative in molding a vital element of Air Defence Organization into a competent and efficient organization. The results of his efforts were so clearly evident in War as this Organization played the most significant part in the air defence of Pakistan. Not content with supervising this vital task, the officer asked to be allowed to carry out offensive missions in bombers and flew several such missions at night against the enemy. For his leadership and devotion to duty and display of great courage, He was awarded Sitara-i-Basalat.

Mohammad Ghulam Tawab - Sitara-i-Juraat
Wing Commander Mohammad Ghulam Tawab started taking part in operations from the very first day the hostilities began. He provided top cover for the first strike against Pathankot. During the War, he flew sixteen air defence missions and eight close support sorties. He took part in bombing of the Srinagar airfield and Jammu radar. He was responsible for destruction of ten enemy tanks and twenty vehicles. Such active participation in operations set an excellent example for all the fighter pilots at Peshawar. Wing Commander Mohammad Ghulam Tawab was, therefore, awarded Sitara-i-Juraat. 

M Anwar Shamim - Sitara-i-Juraat
Wing Commander Muhammad Anwar Shamim in his capacity as Officer Commanding, fighter-bombers wing, made significant contribution to the high morale and aggressive attitude of the pilots who flew from this station. He efficiently managed the changing air defence and other requirements and ensured, while fully meeting these requirements that the pilots got sufficient rest and other comforts to enable them to fly intelligently and confidently. During the operation, he led 14 air defence/escort missions and 5 ground attack missions. His leadership during these operational missions was aggressive and confident and served as a very good example for his pilots to follow. He accepted long hours of duty, including operational sorties at odd hours of the day, with enthusiasm. Wing Commander Muhammad Anwar Shamim was, therefore, awarded Sitara-i-Juraat. 

Masood Ahmed Sikandar - Sitara-i-Juraat
Wing Commander Masood Ahmed Sikander, in the capacity as Wing Leader, proved to be an excellent operational commander. He flew with zeal and enthusiasm and completed seventeen close support sorties and three air defence missions during these operations. Whilst attacking enemy armor, he was wounded when his aircraft was hit by ground fire. For his valour, courage and excellent leadership Wing Commander Masood Ahmed Sikander was awarded Sitara-i-Juraat. 

Nazir Latif - Sitara-i-Juraat
During the nights of 6th, 7th and 8th September, 1965, Wing Commander Nazir Latif led a flight of bombers on high and low level bombing of enemy airfields. Against intense enemy anti-aircraft fire and fighter opposition, he pressed home his attacks with great determination, courage and a high degree of accuracy. On two occasions, his aircraft was hit by anti-aircraft guns but he flew back his aircraft and led the flights back to the base. For exceptional flying skill and valour displayed by him in the bombing operations against the enemy, the officer was awarded Sitara-i-Juraat. 

Salahuddin Zahid Butt - Sitara-i-Juraat
Wing Commander Salahuddin Zahid Butt is an exceptional transport pilot who applied his ability to the fullest limits in carrying out operational missions against the enemy. He flew a total of 8 sorties which included supply dropping and Para trooping over enemy territory. The hazardous operations were carried out with great skills and determination. Throughout the period of operations, he was a source of inspiration to all the other aircrew of the Wing. The success of all transport operations and its impact on the enemy reflected great credit to the ability and leadership of this officer. In recognition of his personal example, achievements and his contribution to the overall success of all transport operations, the officer was awarded Sitara-i-Juraat. 

*Squadron Leader:*

Abdul A K Raja - Tamgha-i-Basalat
A. Ghaffar Mahmood - Tamgha-i-Basalat 

Abdul Masood Khan - Sitara-i-Juraat
Squadron Leader Abdul Masood Khan flew many special missions in a transport aircraft over an important enemy airfield where he dropped paratroops. He succeeded in penetrating the enemy's concentrated radar defence to accomplish the mission. In doing so, he displayed great skill, determination, professional ability and courage. Squadron Leader Abdul Masood Khan was, therefore, awarded Sitara-i-Juraat. 

Aurangzeb Malik - Tamgha-i-Basalat

Azim Daudpota - Sitara-i-Juraat
Squadron Leader Azim Daudpota flew 15 strike and 5 Air Defence missions. He controlled and conducted his missions very ably and was always looked up to by his subordinates. He gave precise and clear-cut instructions in the air and was responsible for wrecking many tanks, guns, vehicles, etc, in the face of heavy enemy ground fire. His great moments came on 21st September, 1965, when his formation destroyed many enemy medium guns at Wagha-Attari Sector. For his leadership, devotion to duty and complete disregard for personal safety, Squadron Leader Azim Daudpota was awarded Sitara-i-Juraat. 

G. M. Khan - Tamgha-i-Basalat
Squadron Leader Ghulam Mohammad Khan has been associated with intelligence work for the last six years. He has worked in various capacities at Inter-services Intelligence Directorate as well as Directorate of Air Intelligence, Air Headquarters. For the last two years he is carrying out duties of Assistant Director of Air Intelligence (Operations). In this capacity he was responsible for producing and maintaining up to date record of operational intelligence about the Air Forces of interest to the Pakistan Air Force. Squadron Leader Ghulam Mohammad Khan had applied himself to his duties most enthusiastically and worked with extreme devotion throughout. During the period of emergency he was observed to have totally dedicated himself towards the cause of service and gave his undivided attention not only to his primary duties but also to any other assignments beyond the scope of his duties. Because of his zeal the Directorate was able to produce useful information which helped in accurate and effective delivery of attacks on Indian Air Force targets. Squadron Leader Ghulam Mohammad Khan was the only Air Force Officer who had visited operational areas across the cease fire line to bring the photographs of the Indian Vampires shot down there. He went unarmed by road without any assistance, searched the wreckage and completed his mission in the area which was being continuously shelled by the enemy at great personal risk. For his devotion to duty and courage he was awarded of Tamgha-i-Basalat. 

Jamal Ahmed Khan - Sitara-i-Juraat
During the Indo-Pakistan War, Squadron Leader Jamal Ahmed Khan flew 29 Air Defence missions and one Photo Mission. He took part mainly in night operations. He was one of two pilots who were credited with the shooting down of a Canberra aircraft. His contribution to deterring the weight and accuracy of enemy night bomber's attacks was commendable. He carried out all his missions with aggressiveness. For his exceptional devotion to duty and courage, Squadron Leader Jamal Ahmed Khan was awarded Sitara-i-Juraat. 

M. E. A. Bhuya - Tamgha-i-Basalat 

Mir Abdul Rashid - Sitara-i-Juraat
Squadron Leader Mir Abdul Rashid made a valuable contribution to the operational effectiveness of the Pakistan Air Force by carrying out extensive surveillance of radar stations in India and by carrying out aerial photography of vital areas in enemy territory. He always responded most enthusiastically and courageously to all calls made on him in this regard and invariably set an inspiring example for his colleagues. In one particular sortie, after the aircraft was severely disabled, he showed tremendous coolness, courage and piloting skill to bring the aircraft back safely to his base. Squadron Leader Mir Abdul Rashid was, therefore, awarded Sitara-i-Juraat. 

Mervyn Leslie Middlecoat - Sitara-i-Juraat
Squadron Leader Middle coat's performance during the operations has been outstanding both on the ground and in the air. He worked continuously with no regard to fatigue and much beyond the call of duty. He kept the morale of the Squadron very high and guided his pilots in a highly professional manner. He flew 17 Air Defense Sorties and 3 Photo Sorties over the forward bases. For his leadership and devotion to duty Squadron Leader Mervyn Leslie Middle coat was awarded Sitara-i-Juraat. 

Mohammad Mahmood Alam - Sitara-i-Juraat
On 6th September, 1965, during an aerial combat over enemy territory, Squadron Leader Mohammad Mahmood Alam flying as pilot of an F-86 Sabre Jet, shoot down two enemy Hunter aircraft and damaged three others. For the exceptional flying skill and valor displayed by Squadron Leader Mohammad Mahmood Alam in operations, he was awarded Sitara-i-Juraat. On 7th September, 1965, in a number of interception missions flown by Squadron Leader Mohammad Mahmood Alam against the enemy aircraft attacking Pakistan Air Force Station, Sargodha, and Squadron Leader Alam destroyed five more enemy Hunter aircrafts. In less than a minute, which remains a record till today? Overall he had nine kills and two damagers to his credit. For the exceptional flying skill and valour shown by him in pressing home his attacks in aerial combats with the enemy, Squadron Leader Mohammad Mahmood Alam is awarded a bar to his Sitara-i-Juraat. 

Mian M. Ashfaq - Tamgha-i-Basalat
During the National Emergency , Squadron Leader Main Mohammad Ashfaq was detailed to work as Officer-in-charge servicing party for C-130B aircraft operating away from their home base. During this period, Squadron Leader Main worked selflessly and with complete devotion. He spared on effort in keeping the aircraft fully serviceable and making them available whenever required for the operational missions, despite inadequate base facilities. On many occasions aircraft modifications were carried out at short notice because of change in role. This would not have been possible without his capacity for round the clock work. His job was further complicated by the fact that the aircraft had to be dispersed at different places and he had to arrange maintenance support at a short notice. By this personal example and devotion to duty, he inspired his men to give their best in this difficult period, he was awarded Tamgha-i-Basalat. 

M. Ishaque Beg - Tamgha-i-Basalat
Squadron Leader Mirza Ishaque Beg was in command of care and maintenance party at Lahore from 8th September, 1965 to 23rd September, 1965. During this period he ensured that all arrangements for defence and denial, safe-guarding of petrol, oil and lubricants, Burmah Shell and ESSO Fuel Installations; round the clock working of operation room and Air Raid Warning System for Lahore and different cities of West Pakistan functioned effectively. His arrangement for denying PAF Lahore to enemy clandestine operations like landing of aircraft or pare troop dropping with the meager man-power available was excellent. He evacuated about sixty East Pakistani families to Kohat in an orderly and smooth manner. His cheerfulness and devotion to duty was a great inspiration to all the PAF personnel at Lahore who performed their various duties to the best of their capability. For his inspiring leadership and effective supervision, while under stress, Squadron Leader Mirza Ishaq Beg was awarded of Tamgha-i-Basalat. 

M. Younus - Tamgha-i-Basalat
Squadron Leader Mohammad Yunis took part in T-6G offensive missions behind the enemy lines during the period 6th September, 1965 to 22nd September, 1965. Inspire of the limited capability of this aircraft in the form of performance, navigational capability and weapon system, Squadron Leader Yunis repeatedly pressed home his attack by night on the enemy communications in the face of fire from the ground and successfully damaged two trains and blew up one small ammunition vehicle. This success is attributed to his offensive spirit, and hunting eye which enabled him to spot the enemy movements inspire of black-out and poor light conditions. He awarded Tamgha-i-Basalat. 

Najeeb Ahmed Khan - Sitara-i-Juraat
Squadron Leader Najeeb Ahmed Khan was commanding a Bomber Squadron during the Indo-Pakistan War. He flew 17 bombing missions against various Indian Air Force operational bases and led his Squadron with courage during the most hazardous raids on Ambala, Adampur, Jamnagar and Jodhpur. He carried out the raid on the well-defended airfield of Ambala deep in enemy territory at great personal risk. The attack was conducted with great accuracy and outstanding professional skills. By his example, he inspired confidence, determination and aggressiveness amongst personnel of his Squadron. For his outstanding courage, inspiring leadership and dedication to duty, he is awarded Sitara-i-Juraat. 

Rais Ahmed Rafi - Sitara-i-Juraat
Squadron Leader Rais Ahmad Rafi flew a total of 14 operational missions during the Indo-Pakistan War. The officer led his Squadron on most of the hazardous missions to Ambala, Adampur, Jamnagar and Jodhpur. He completed all the missions assigned to him in a highly professional manner and in complete disregard of his personal safety. The officer was a source of inspiration for other pilots in the Squadron and has set a fine example of courage, valour and determination. He invariably delivered his attacks with great accuracy and precision causing maximum damage to the enemy. For his courage and gallantry performance, Squadron Leader Rais Ahmed Rafi was awarded Sitara-i-Juraat. 

Shuaib Alam Khan - Sitara-i-Juraat
Squadron Leader Shuaib Alam Khan flew fourteen operational missions very successfully. On all these missions, he displayed exceptional professional skill and navigated his aircraft with unerring accuracy to targets both by day and night. The confidence and enthusiasm, with which he undertook missions to the most heavily defended targets deep in the enemy territory, set a very high example to all other navigators. Inspiring leadership and professional competence of Squadron Leader Shoaib Alam Khan was in large measures responsible for the highly successful operations of the bombers. His disregard for personal safety and comfort throughout the period of operations was in the highest traditions of the Pakistan Air Force. Squadron Leader Shuaib Alam Khan was, therefore, awarded Sitara-i-Juraat. 

Shabbir Hussain Syed - Sitara-i-Juraat
On 7th September, 1965, Squadron Leader Shabbir Hussain Syed led a flight of F-86 Sabre Jets on two separate strike missions on a well-defended enemy airfield at Kalaikunda. During these strikes, he and his flight destroyed on the ground 10 Canberra Light Bombers and two unidentified enemy aircrafts, and damaged two more. In an aerial combat following the strike, Squadron Leader Shabbir destroyed one enemy Hunter aircraft. For exceptional flying skill and outstanding valour in pressing home the attacks on enemy aircraft, Squadron Leader Shabbir Hussain Syed was awarded Sitara-i-Juraat.

Sayed Sajjad Haider - Sitara-i-Juraat
Squadron Leader Sayed Sajjad Haider displayed exceptional leadership, courage and flying skill in the operations against the enemy during the Indo-Pakistan War. He destroyed with four enemy aircraft, eleven enemy tanks and damaged three tanks. Throughout the operations, his attitude both on the ground and in the air, was exemplary. He infused his pilots with aggressiveness. The strike mission which he led on 6th September, 1965, against Pathankot airfield, where his formation destroyed 13 enemy aircraft including nine MIG-21's, was conducted in the best traditions of the Pakistan Air Force. The formation carried out repeated attacks in the face of heavy Ack Ack. For the determination, courage and exceptional flying skill with which he flew and led his Squadron during operations against the enemy, Squadron Leader Sayed Sajjad Haider was awarded Sitara-i-Juraat. 

Sultan Muhammad - Tamgha-i-Basalat
Squadron Leader Sultan Muhammad has shown exemplary qualities of leadership and devotion to duty before and during the war with India. As Officer Commanding No.210 Wireless observer Wing, his energy, drive and thorough training specially of Ground Signalers of his wing, resulted in remarkable performance by his units who had been deployed all along the border. Though both the Squadrons in the beginning were without their Squadron Commanders, still the units were able to move to locations along Azad Kashmir territory and soon after re-deployed in their war time locations. The creditable performance and excellent reporting by most of his units, and the excellent discipline and devotion to duty by his units who were all in an area where there was heavy enemy air patrolling, air attacks as well as ground shelling is to a large extent due to his close supervision and untiring efforts before and during the war. In the Kasur Sector while moving on supervisory duties, on two occasions enemy aircraft buzzed his jeep but he kept on traveling undeterred. His efforts also enabled the charging sets repair and supply arrangement to be streamlined to an extent that a daily production of two to three charging sets became possible by the end of the conflict. For his hard work, drive and ceaseless efforts to keep the performance of his units in top state, he was awarded Tamgha-i-Basalat 


*Flight Lieutenant:* 

Aftab A Khan - Tamgha-i-Basalat 
Flight Lieutenant Aftab Alam Khan flew a total of 23 missions in the F-104 during the period of operations. Throughout this period he showed great enthusiasm for undertaking day and night interception missions as well as visual recce missions. Apart from his overall aggressive flying he also destroyed one Mystere. Therefore he was awarded Tamgha-i-Basalat.


Arshad Sami Khan - Sitara-i-Juraat
Flight Lieutenant Arshad Sami Khan flew the maximum combat missions during the war with India. His enthusiasm and aggressive spirit was of the highest order and was responsible to ignite the spirit of competition amongst other pilots in its most effective form. He led formations in the battle area with exemplary determination and brought back excellent results. He has been credited with one aircraft,15 tanks and 22 vehicles destroyed and 8 tanks and 19 vehicles damaged and 2 heavy guns destroyed. He never looked tired or apprehensive in the face of heavy odds but kept on inflicting maximum damage to the enemy as his only objective. For his outstanding devotion to duty and bravery, Flight Lieutenant Arshad Sami Khan was awarded Sitara-i-Juraat.

Amanuallah Khan - Sitara-i-Juraat
Flight Lieutenant Amanullah Khan carried out 26 strike missions and one Air Defence mission against the enemy. He flew in a most aggressive and alert manner and was responsible for inspiring great confidence in his formation members. His leadership left nothing more to be desired. He participated in attacks on Amritsar and Ferozpur Radar, Gurdaspur Railway Station, Ammunition Train at Dhariwal and many other close support missions and invariably achieved most convincing results against heavy, enemy ground fire. On 21st September 1965, his formation achieved great successes in the destruction of enemy's heavy guns which were shelling Lahore. For his aggressive, and determined leadership and display of unbeatable courage in the face of heavy enemy ground fire, Flight Lieutenant Amanullah Khan was awarded Sitara-i-Juraat.

Amjad Hussain Khan - Sitara-i-Juraat
On the morning of September 7, Flight Lieutenant Amjad Hussain Khan engaged two Mysteres at low level, attacking Sargodha airfield. He fired at one aircraft but as his target was flying at a very low altitude it was ineffective. The two aircraft detected him and took evasive action. Flight Lieutenant Amjad Hussain Khan out maneuvered the Indian pilots and destroyed both aircraft. The second, aircraft blew up in the air and the debris struck his aircraft and froze its flight controls. Flight Lieutenant Amjad Hussain Khan ejected at 50 feet above ground level. This narrow escape from death had no ill effects on the pilot and within a day he was available and more than willing to continue his duties. For his dedication to duty and courage, Flight Lieutenant Amjad Hussain Khan was awarded Sitara-i-Juraat.

Cecil Chaudhry - Sitara-i-Juraat
On 6th September, 1965, Flight Lieutenant Cecil Chaudhry was No. 2 in a flight of 3 F-86 aircraft led by Squadron Leader Rafiqui. Their target was Halwara airfield of the Indian Air Force. This formation of 3 F-86s was intercepted by 10 Hunter aircraft of the Indian Air Force. During the engagement, the leader's guns stopped firing and he handed over the lead to Flight Lieutenant Cecil Chaudhry, who very ably and aggressively continued the fight against heavy odds. About 60 miles inside enemy territory, he destroyed two enemies Hunter aircraft with his gun attack. His courage and professional ability in such adverse circumstances was outstanding and he successfully managed to return to base after having lost contact with other members of the formation. On 15th September, 1965, in spite of insufficient information from Ground Radar, Flight Lieutenant Cecil Chaudhry pursued his attack aggressively on enemy bombers and chased them 150 miles from his base. During the engagement, he destroyed one enemy Canberra bomber. The services rendered by him were beyond the call of normal duty and contributed a significant share towards Pakistan Air Force achieving air superiority. For these acts of courage, dedication and professional ability, Flight Lieutenant Cecil Chaudhry was awarded Sitara-i-Juraat. 

Dilawar Hussain - Sitara-i-Juraat
Flight Lieutenant Dilawar Hussain was one of the greatest sources of inspiration for his Squadron mates throughout the operation. He displayed great keenness to operate in the battle area and great commitment and determination in the face of heavy odds was most inspiring. He flew at all times in a manner that befits the best of the fighter pilots of the Pakistan Air Force. His personal score of enemy tanks and aircraft on the ground was three aircraft and eight tanks destroyed one aircraft and four tanks damaged, one armored vehicle and thirteen others destroyed nine vehicles and one gun damaged. He flew a total of ten Air Defence sorties and 17 Strike/Close support missions. On one occasion, he continued his mission without being in the least bit apprehensive after having been hit by ground fire. For his courage and high spirits in the performance of his duty, Flight Lieutenant Dilawar Hussain is awarded Sitara-i-Juraat. 

Ghani Akbar - Sitara-i-Juraat
Flight Lieutenant Ghani Akbar flew 13 ground attack and 12 air defence missions during the Indo-Pakistan War. He destroyed one aircraft in a ground strike mission and was credited with 5 tanks destroyed and 5 damaged during close support missions. Throughout he flew aggressively, fearlessly and in a most professional manner. For his flying ability, determination and courage he was awarded Sitara-i-Juraat.

Hakimullah - Tamgha-i-Basalat
Flight Lieutenant Hakeemullah was a pilot flying the star fighters (F- 104), he showed exceptional skill and enthusiasm in the deterring the enemy from achieving its aims. In one of his missions, he forced an enemy Gnat to force-land his aircraft in Pakistan territory.


Iftikhar Ahmad Khan Ghauri - Sitara-i-Juraat
Flight Lieutenant Iftikhar Ahmad Khan Ghauri in the Indo-Pakistan War flew a total of 13 operational missions to Pathankot, Adampur, Halwara, Jodhpur and Jamnagar. The officer displayed great courage and determination in reaching his targets in spite of very heavy odds and against tough enemy opposition. His accurate and aggressive mission-planning has contributed significantly towards the success of our bomber raids against the enemy airfields. In all these missions he displayed great, courage, determination and complete devotion to duty. In spite of his serious stomach ailment, the officer remained fit throughout the period of operations and voluntarily offered his services for every mission much beyond the call of duty. For his outstanding devotion to duty, courage and velour, Flight Lieutenant Iftikhar Ahmad Khan Ghauri was awarded Sitara-i-Juraat.

Imtiaz Ahmad Bhatti - Sitara-i-Juraat
Flight Lieuteanat Imtiaz Ahmad Bhatti was one of the two pilots who were on an air patrol when they were directed to intercept enemy aircraft attacking our ground forces in Chamb area. This was the first air encounter of the Indo-Pakistan War. Though heavily out-numbered, Flight Lieutenant Bhatti fought with exceptional courage and professional skill and shot down two Vampire aircraft in this engagement. This set an inspiring example for others to emulate. For his gallantry, determination and dedication to the Service he was awarded Sitara-i-Juraat.

Javed A Khawaja - Tamgha-i-Basalat
Flight Lieutenant Javed Ahmed Khawaja was a pilot in the T-6G Squadron during the period of war in September, 1965. During this period his only concern was to hit and destroy the enemy; and he showed complete disregard for his own safety. On 11th September, 1965, while flying over enemy territory ,he was hit by small arm fire from the ground. But his eagerness to hunt for the enemy was so high that he yet pressed his attack on an enemy communication centre and completed his mission. For his offensive spirit, courage and desire to destroy the enemy he recommended for the award of Tamgha-i-Basalat. 

Khawaja A Ahmad - Tamgha-i-Basalat
Flight Lientenant Khawaja Altaf Ahmed as Flight Commander of the photo Reece Squadron flew 10 operational Photo missions covering vital enemy targets with determination and cool courage. He pressed home his missions with success even when exposed to serious danger from enemy aircraft of better performance. Subsequently too he has flown courageously over the battle zone on several hazardous sorties, For his courage and devotion to duty he recommended for the award of Tamgha-i-Basalat.

Muhammad Ahmed Khan - Sitara-i-Basalat
During the period of operations against India, Flt.Lt. Muhammad Ahmed Khan flew 47 sorties evacuating casualties from the forward areas and airlifting arms and ammunition for the troops in the front line. By doing so, Flt. Lt. Muhammad Ahmed Khan displayed a keen sense of duty and considerable enthusiasm in making his contribution to the war effort. He was, therefore, awarded Sitara-i-Basalat. During the war, he displayed outstanding qualities of courage and keenness to undertake the most arduous missions from the very onset of operations. This was a source of inspiration to others since he was one of the youngest crew members in the bomber organization. On the first day of the operations, when only experienced aircrew was being selected for the first strikes, Zulfiqar insisted on being included. He was eventually detailed for a mission to Jodhpur which was very successful. For his determination, courage and tenacity, he was awarded the Sitara-i-Basalat. 

M. Arif Iqbal - Tamgha-i-Basalat
Flight Lieutenant Mohammad Arif Iqbal has been the Flight Commander in No.9 Squadron since 14th June, 1962. He has shown great keenness in all spheres of Squadron training .During the National Emergency of September, 1965 Flight Lieutenant Mohammad Arif Iqbal displayed a tenacity of mind and spirit that was an inspiration to the other pilots of the Squadrons. He worked hours that should have normally exhausted him, but his cheerful spirit and loyalty turned him into a pillar of strength. He was ever willing to fly and did so whatever he was required to do so, therefore he recommended for the award of Tamgha-i-Basalat.

M. Afzal Chaudhry - Tamgha-i-Basalat
Flight Lieutenant Mohammad Afzal Choudhary has performed his duties extremely well during the period of Indo-Pakistan war .He always worked willingly and cheerfully even beyond the call of his duties. He flew all types of mission with great enthusiasm and helped keeping the morale of his subordinates high. Therefore he recommended for the award of Tamgh-i-i Basalat.

Mohammad Akbar - Sitara-i-Juraat
Flight Lieutenant Mohammad Akbar was responsible for programming of pilots for various duties. He was under extreme pressure of work but was able to exercise complete control over the Squadron and attached pilots and ensured adequate rest for everybody. In addition, he flew as much as was possible and completed every mission in highly professional manner. His personal conduct was a true reflection of his determined efforts. He flew 13 strike and 10 air defense missions. During the strike missions he was credited with two aircraft destroyed, one aircraft damaged on the ground, two tanks destroyed and 3 damaged; 5 vehicles destroyed and 3 damaged and 4 guns damaged. Flight Lieutenant Mohammad Akbar was, therefore, awarded Sitara-i-Juraat.

Mohammad Saleem - Sitara-i-Basalat
Flight Lieutenant Mohammad Saleem flew about 15 ground attack missions against the Indian Army and 18 Air Defence sorties. He led a number of missions in an able manner and was responsible for the destruction of many enemy guns, tanks and other valuable military equipment in the face of heavy enemy ground fire. His alertness, courage and aircraft-handling were of a high order and his presence in the formation was a source of inspiration to others. For his devotion to duty, courage and valuable services to the country and Air Force, Flight Lieutenant Mohammad Saleem was awarded Sitara-i-Basalat. 

M. Tariq Habib Khan - Sitara-i-Juraat
Flight Lieutenant M.Tariq Habib Khan was one of the pilots who struck the enemy airfield at KalaiKunda in the first strike mission against the enemy from East Pakistan. He flew three operational sorties and many other Air Defence missions and carried out these missions most courageously with success against heavy odds at great risk and in complete disregard for his personal safety. In one of these sorties , he engaged 4 Indian Air Force Hunters thus diverting their attention from other Pakistan Air Force aircraft who were attacking the enemy airfield. Later, he himself managed to evade the Indian Force aircraft and returned to base safely in a crippled aircraft. During all these operations, he destroyed three Canberras and one C-119 on the ground and one Hunter in the air. Flight Lieutenant Tariq carried out all his missions with determination, courage and at great personal risk. For his act of bravery and devotion to duty, Flight Lieutenant Mohammad Tariq Habib Khan was awarded Sitara-i-Juraat. 

Nazir Ahmed Khan - Sitara-i-Juraat
Flight Lieutenant Nazir Ahmed Khan took an active part in the air operation during the war with India. These operations involved flying over hazardous terrain in adverse weather condition by night as well as flying at extremely low levels. Such operations called for outstanding flying ability and great courage. He carried out these missions with great skill and determination, and his achievements are a tribute to his ability. Flight Lieutenant Nazir Ahmed Khan was therefore was awarded Sitara-i-Juraat.

Chaudhry Rizwan Ahmed - Sitara-i-Juraat
Flight Lieutenant Chaudhry Rizwan Ahmed undertook a total of seven operational missions in enemy territory. Apart from his exceptional professional skill as a navigator, he was associated with the planning of all missions undertaken by the Squadron. By his objective thinking and sound ideas on the use of airborne radar equipment, a very high degree of accuracy in aerial delivery missions under blind flying conditions was achieved. In addition to this contribution, he was always available for strenuous flying duties even after long tiring hours of planning, and consistently displayed a great deal of zeal and stamina. His achievements made him stand out as a navigator who combines professional skill with a rare sense of objectivity. Flight Lieutenant Ch. Rizwan Ahmed was, therefore, awarded Sitara-i-Juraat.

Syed Mohammad Ahmed - Sitara-i-Basalat
Flight Lieutenant Syed Mohammad Ahmed flew a total of 19 ground support operational missions from 6 to 19 September, 1965. On 19 Sep. 65, his aircraft was very badly damaged by the enemy Ack Ack during a raid against a heavily defended enemy target. The pilot displayed extreme coolness, presence of mind and determination and managed to bring the crippled aircraft back to base. His controls unfortunately jammed on the final approach and he was seriously injured. During the entire period of the War, the officer volunteered to fly every operational sortie that was available. His enthusiasm and keenness was a source of inspiration to the officers around him and, considering the fact that he was not employed on full flying duties before the start of the hostilities, his performance throughout had been outstanding and highly commendable. His aggressive manner of attacking enemy targets was most inspiring and contributed significantly towards the destruction of each target that was assigned to his formation. For his outstanding devotion to duty and courage, Flight Lieutenant Syed Mohammad Ahmed was awarded Sitara-i-Basalat. 

Saadat Mohammad Akhtar Khan - Sitara-i-Juraat
During the Indo-Pakistan War, Flight Lieutenant Saadat Mohammad Akhtar Khan completed a total of 15 operational missions against the enemy airfields. He undertook the most hazardous missions to Ambala, Adampur, Jodhpur, Halwara and Pathankot. In all these missions he displayed great courage and valour, Flight Lieutenant Saadat Mohammad Akhtar Khan was, therefore, awarded Sitara-i-Juraat.

S. Viqar Ahmed Abdi - Sitara-i-Juraat
On 7th September, 1965, Flight Lieutenant Viqar Ahmed Abdi was the navigator on an operational mission flying at low level by night where precise navigation was no easy task. He succeeded in accomplishing the mission with the desired accuracy. In so doing so he, as a navigator, displayed great skill and determination. In addition to this special mission, he undertook many more successful night bombing missions. For his excellent performance, Flight Lieutenant Viqar Ahmed Abdi was awarded Sitara-i-Juraat.

Saifullah Khan Lodhi - Sitara-i-Juraat
Flight Lieutenant Saifullah Khan Lodhi was a navigator of exceptional ability and a completely dedicated officer. He possessed uncommon skill, enthusiasm and drive, which enabled him to make a valuable contribution towards operations. He undertook several operational missions most cheerfully and enthusiastically, invariably attaining outstanding results. It was on one such mission on 11th September, 1965 that he lost his life. For his extreme dedication to duty, Flight Lieutenant Saifullah Khan Lodhi is awarded Sitar-i-Juraat posthumously.

Saif-ul Azam - Sitara-i-Juraat
Flight Lieutenant Saif-ul-Azam flew 12 ground-attack missions against the enemy in Sialkot, Wagha and Kasur Sector. In spite of heavy odd, he proved to be an extremely cool, calculating and aggressive fighter pilot. His spotting of the enemy's dug-in and well dispersed armor was most commendable and invariably resulted in success of missions. His own attacks were very well executed and were a source of inspiration to other members of the flights. On 19th September, 1965, in spite of bad radio-communication and having been separated from his formation, his qualities of aggressiveness and alertness earned him and Indian Gnat Fighter. For his exceptional flying, courage, alertness and devotion to duty, Flight Lieutenant Saif-ul-Azam is awarded Sitara-i-Juraat.

Sajjad A Khan - Tamgha-i-Basalat
Through singleness of purpose and devotion to duty Flght Lieutenant Sajjad Ashraf Khan has contributed a great deal to the efficient performance of Mobile Observer Units of 203 Squadron who were deployed all along the border from chhamb to Lahore. The quality of reporting, the disciplined re-deployment and immediate functioning of Mobile observer units after they were over run or because of changing front, is a tribute to his inspiring leadership. During the operations this officer was responsible for setting up PAF Lahore Detachment near Sargodha, training of available Ground Signallers on GRC 410 Radifon sets and in setting up of Standing Control Centre from his own resources. Also on many occasions by personally going to 103 Maintenance unit and Central Ordanance Depot Rawalpindi to bring all possible spares of wireless sets as well as charging sets he ensured that rectification and supply of much needed equipment for wireless observer units continued unhampered. For his exemplary hard work and devotion to duty and initiative he awarded the award of Tamgha-i-Basalat.


Sikandar Mahmood Khan - Sitara-i-Juraat
Flight Lieutenant Sikandar Mahmood Khan has flown 15 bomber missions during the Indo-Pakistan War. He undertook some of the most hazardous missions and completed every one of them successfully causing maximum damage to the enemy in complete disregard of his own safety. On many occasions, he was chased by enemy fighters and in spite of warnings by own radar controllers, he pressed home his attack and completed the mission most successfully. By this performance he has shown great courage and determination, and his coolness under such difficult circumstances has been of the highest order. For his courage and gallant performance, Flight Lieutenant Sikandar Mahmood Khan is awarded Sitara-i-Juraat.

Syed Khalid Hasan Wasti - Sitara-i-Juraat
Flight Lieutenant Syed Khalid Hasan Wasti took part in 5 operational missions during the War with India. These missions were by night into enemy territory. Some of these missions involved flying over mountainous terrain under adverse weather conditions, while the other were flown at 300 feet above ground level. Such operations, therefore, called for skill and courage. He repeatedly pushed himself forward to take part in these difficult missions and always conducted them with great skill and determination. By so doing, he displayed the highest degree of enthusiasm and determination. In addition, his sense of humor and his usual cheerfulness were apparent at all times. For cool courage and devotion to duty, Flight Lieutenant Khalid Hasan Wasti is awarded Sitara-i-Juraat.

Syed Manzoorul Hasan Hashmi - Sitara-i-Juraat
Flight Lieutenant Syed Manzoorul Hasan Hashmi flew 20 strike and 2 Air Defence missions against the enemy. His strikes were directed against enemy concentrations on Jummu, Sialkot, Wagha-Kasur sectors. He led his mission in a most competent manner and achieved considerable success against heavily defended enemy areas. His own aircraft was hit on six occasions by Ack Ack and small arms fire but, undaunted, he pursued his attacks on the enemy. His formation achieved notable success on 21st September, 1965, in which he destroyed many heavy guns of the enemy which were shelling Lahore and earned him deep appreciation on own army's Area Commander. His cool, courageous and operational leadership in complete disregard to his own safety in the face of heavy enemy fire and devotion to duty are commendable. Flight Lieutenant Syed Manzoorul Hasan Hashmi is awarded Sitara-i-Juraat.



S N A Jilani - Tamgha-i-Basalat
Flight Lieutenant Syed Nazir Ahmed Jilani flew a total of 31 F-86 missions during the period of operations. Of these 30 were Air Defence and one was close support mission. He flew several of these missions asleader and displayed an aggressive and enthusiastic attitude. His personal score was one Gnat destroyed and one hunter "probable". Therefore he recommended for Tamgha-i-Basalat. 

Syed Saad Akhtar Hatmi - Sitara-i-Juraat
Flight Lieutenant Syed Saad Akhtar Hatmi as Flight Commander of a Fighter Squadron, led his formation in 30 Air Defence and 2 Strike missions and is personally credited with the destruction of one enemy Hunter and one Gnat in the air and two Tanks and Four vehicles. The Officer carried out all his missions during the operations with high professional skill, determination, courage and exceptional aggressiveness in the best traditions of the Pakistan Air Force. By his example, he infused his formation with confidence and aggressiveness. For his professional ability, devotion to duty and courage, the officer is awarded Sitara-i-Juraat.

Syed Shamsuddin Khan - Sitara-i-Juraat
Since the commencement of hostilities, Flight Lieutenant Syed Shamsuddin has completed a total of 14 successful bombing missions against enemy airfields at Ambala, Halwara, Adampur, Pathankot, Jamnagar and Jodhpur. Every one of the attacks undertaken by Flight Lieutenant Shamsuddin was delivered with great accuracy, causing maximum damage to the enemy in spite of very stiff enemy opposition. The officer always volunteered to undertake any mission that was available and the results produced by him have been most satisfying. His coolness under difficult circumstances has been inspiring and he has set an example of great courage, determination and valor for his associates. For his outstanding courage and bravery, Flight Lieutenant Syed Shamsuddin Ahmed is awarded Sitara-i-Juraat.

William D Harney - Sitara-i-Juraat
Flight Lieutenant William D. Harney's performance and professional ability during the current operations has been of the highest order. The officer has, in spite of a hand injury, voluntarily undertaken all available bombing missions and especially the most hazardous ones to Ambala, Pathankot, Adampur, Halwara and Jodhpur. In all the missions he has excelled in qualities of leadership, courage and devotion to duty. His mission planning and execution of the missions has been of the highest order in spite of very heavy odds. He has always reached his targets and made very significant contribution to accurate attacks. The officer has during the Indo-Pakistan War completed a total of 14 operational missions and every one of them has been of significant importance to the overall superiority of the Pakistan Air Force. For his courage dedication to duty, Flight Lieutenant William D. Harney is awarded Sitara-i-Jurat.

Yousaf Ali Khan - Sitara-i-Juraat
While leading the fighter formation of two aircraft's over Chamb Sector, Flight Lieutenant Yousaf Ali Khan was attacked by 4 Hunters. During the engagement, when he had got behind the enemy, two more Gnats attacked him. His left elevator was shot away but he continued fighting them till the enemy aircraft broke off. He showed great courage and determination in engaging overwhelming odds and bringing home the damaged aircraft. On 13th September, 1965, he shot down another Gnat. For his consistent determination, courage and aggressiveness, the officer is awarded Sitara-i-Juraat.

Yousaf Hasan Alvi - Sitara-i-Juraat
In the current operations, Flight Lieutenant Yousaf Hasan Alvi completed a total of 13 missions against Indian Airfields. His professional ability was of the highest order and he has displayed coolness, courage and determination in every one of his attacks which has resulted in the destruction of many Indian installations and airfields. He has conducted bombing attacks on Adampur, Halwara, Pathankot, Jamnagar and Jodhpur with such precise accuracy that he was always selected for the most difficult tasks. He showed determination, courage and singleness of purpose, in execution of every mission he undertook. For his outstanding bravery and devotion to duty, Flight Lieutenant Yousaf Hasan Alvi is awarded Sitara-i-Juraat.

*Flying Officer:* 

M Ehtisham Akram - Tamgha-i-Basalat
Flying Officer Mohammad Ehtisham Akram is a photo reccee pilot. He has flown four operational missions .On 7th September,1965, he made two attempts to reach Amritsar but could not penetrate because of enemy fighter aircraft. He pulled back into Pakistan, waited and made a third attempt and completed the task. On 10th September,1965, even though his F-104 aircraft escort was removed by sector operation Centre, he went ahead and completed the task given to him. During this mission he was attacked by I.A.F Mystere aircraft but successfully evaded the enemy and returned to base. Flying Officer Ehtisham has shown courage and determination to complete the task given to him. Therefore he awarded Tamgha-i-Basalat.

M Masud Akhtar - Tamgha-i-Basalat
Throughout the period of operations Flying Officer Mohammad Masud Akhtar has flown as a wing man most confidently and aggressively. During this short war he has flown nearly 50 hours. He was flying Wing man the day a flight of four hunters were engaged and shot down. He kept his wing leader covered continuously during this engagement. For his experience, he is the best wing man in a wing. So he recommended for the awad of Tamgha-i-Basalat.

Shafique Haider - Tamgha-i-Basalat 

Ziauddin Hasan - Sitara-i-Juraat
On the nights of the 6th, 7th and 8th September, 1965, Flying Officer Ziauddin Hasan flew as navigator of the leading aircraft of bombers which attacked the enemy airfields. Despite intense enemy anti-aircraft fire and some fighter opposition, Flying Officer Hasan navigated the bomber fights with cool, courage and accuracy and thus contributed to the success of bombing mission. For the high degree of professional skill, courage and determination shown by Flying Officer Ziauddin Hasan in the air operations against enemy airfields, he is awarded Sitara-i-Juraat.


*Corporal:* 

Ghulam Abbas - Tamgha-i-Juraat
Corporal Technician Ghulam Abbas was N.C.O. I/C of a unit during the War. He was ordered to deploy his unit in the Kasur sector. When he reached there, he was advised by the Army personnel that the area was not safe but he told them that this was his place of duty and he would execute the orders given by his superiors. On 10th September, 1965, the enemy artillery shells started falling within about 200 feet of his post but he continued carrying out his job without any fear. His personal example of devotions to duty and courage was a source of inspiration to his fairly inexperienced subordinates and the Unit kept on functioning perfectly. On 11th September, 1965, the shells started falling within a few yards of his post but even this did not deter him from carrying out his duties. He told three of his men to sit in the trench and the remaining two, including him, kept on manning the observation post and the operator's seat. Thus, his team continued functioning efficiently in spite of heavy shelling by the enemy.

M Omar Ali - Tamgha-i-Juraat
During the War, Corporal Omar Ali was NCO I/C of a unit attached to a forward Brigade. In spite of frequent strafing bombing and shelling by the enemy, Corporal Ali performed his duties most efficiently. His unit was one of the first to report the four enemy Vampire aircraft which were shot down on 1st September, 1965. On 5th September, 1965, his unit was strafed by four enemy Hunters and it was noticed that Cpl. Ali continued to work along with his operator when everyone else had taken cover. He remained unconcerned about his personal safety and went on performing his duties even under enemy fire. His outstanding courage and devotion to duty was a great source of inspiration to his subordinates.

Sher Mohammad - Tamgha-i-Juraat
During the War, Corporal Sher Mohammad was manning a Light Ack. Ack. gun at P.A.F. Station, Sargodha. On 6th September, 1965, while Indian aircraft were strafing and rocketing the base, Corporal Sher Mohammad courageously performed his duty by keeping up an accurate fire against the invaders and damaged one enemy aircraft. This was the first engagement of P.A.F. guns against the enemy and determined fire by Corporal Sher Mohammad greatly enhanced the morale and fighting spirit of the P.A.F. gun-crew. 

*Master Air Crew:* 

Mohammad Ashfaq -Tamgha-i-Juraat
Master Aircrew Mohammad Ashfaq while performing the duties of an aircrew during the War, undertook the maximum number of missions against the enemy. In addition to flying several missions, he personally supervised the ground handling of the a/c which involved a great deal of time and effort. He most conscientiously devoted himself to the work assigned to him with utmost enthusiasm without any regard for personal comfort or the dangers involved. In spite of long hours of work on the ground as well as in the air, his cheerfulness and willing co-operations was commendable.

*Air Crew I:* 

Mohammad Hafeez - Tamgha-i-Juraat
During the War, Aircrew 1 Mohammad Hafeez undertook a large number of missions against the enemy. As an aircrew, he displayed great keenness and extreme dedication to his duties with least regard for his personal comfort or the hazardous nature of these operations. In addition to flying operations, he personally supervised the loading of aircraft before undertaking the missions. In spite of long hours of work on the ground and in the air, he remained cheerful and showed remarkable co-operation at all times.


A BREED APART !!!

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## datalibdaz

Peregrine said:


> ^ LOL  After being a defence expert...Mr Mastan has taken up the role of "how to boost your masculinity" advisor.



He is true...But a bit harsh too...This pictures show lack of professionalism... No one is doubting there capabilities but banda zara serious hoke aur action mey khara ho... Throws Psychological effect on enemy .


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## MastanKhan

Peregrine said:


> ^ LOL  After being a defence expert...Mr Mastan has taken up the role of "how to boost your masculinity" advisor.



Senor,

A picture tells a thousand things----in this pictures---there is no cohesion amongst the military men and women----each is posing to his own---like it is a fashion show and he / she is on the cat walk---. One is displaying 'gang' signs---possibly not known to him.

There is no hands on hips, arms around the shoulders, bent at waist, for military men and women officers in a picture. Maybe when it is a casual picture in the playroomthey can be shown in a casual manner.


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## Windjammer

@MastanKhan

Hope you know the difference between a pilot being on duty prevailing utmost discipline and a human chilling out and horsing around.

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## Slav Defence

Windjammer said:


> @MastanKhan
> 
> Hope you know the difference between a pilot being on duty prevailing utmost discipline and a human chilling out and horsing around.



 learning alot from you windy.....

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## Windjammer

Slav Defence said:


> learning alot from you windy.....



Yara, pity the last image got blocked, it would have conveyed an appropriate message from the pilots. !!

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## Bossman

Peregrine said:


> ^ LOL  After being a defence expert...Mr Mastan has taken up the role of "how to boost your masculinity" advisor.



He needs that when he is selling used cars in gay San Francisco.


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## Bossman

MastanKhan said:


> Senor,
> 
> A picture tells a thousand things----in this pictures---there is no cohesion amongst the military men and women----each is posing to his own---like it is a fashion show and he / she is on the cat walk---. One is displaying 'gang' signs---possibly not known to him.
> 
> There is no hands on hips, arms around the shoulders, bent at waist, for military men and women officers in a picture. Maybe when it is a casual picture in the playroomthey can be shown in a casual manner.



Its a casual, informal picture of some rencently graduated young officers having fun. It is not a formal squadron picture. There are many example of more formal squadron pictures and maybe the stance in those pictures can meet your high martial standards.

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## razgriz19

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Pakistani pilots pose so 'gay' in many a pictures---. They need to stand straight like men---like warriors that they are---hands on their backs---straight postures---officers need to act like officers---not some college kids---.



well who knows maybe they are gay.

and if you cared to read what i replied to, you wouldn't be saying this.

P.S 
I thought you were being sarcastic.
But judging from other comments, I guess you weren't.


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## MastanKhan

Bossman said:


> Its a casual, informal picture of some rencently graduated young officers having fun. It is not a formal squadron picture. There are many example of more formal squadron pictures and maybe the stance in those pictures can meet your high martial standards.



Bossman,

Did I ever tell you the story about that FLEA that lived in the elephant's ear-----maybe I will in a while.


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## Armstrong

MastanKhan said:


> Bossman,
> 
> Did I ever tell you the story about that FLEA that lived in the elephant's ear-----maybe I will in a while.



Oh for godsake *Mastan Bhai* - Jaaan davooo ghusaaaa ! 

Why criticize for the sake of 'criticizing' ?

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## muse

> Salahuddin Zahid Butt - Sitara-i-Juraat
> Wing Commander Salahuddin Zahid Butt is an exceptional transport pilot who applied his ability to the fullest limits in carrying out operational missions against the enemy. He flew a total of 8 sorties which included supply dropping and Para trooping over enemy territory. The hazardous operations were carried out with great skills and determination. Throughout the period of operations, he was a source of inspiration to all the other aircrew of the Wing. The success of all transport operations and its impact on the enemy reflected great credit to the ability and leadership of this officer. In recognition of his personal example, achievements and his contribution to the overall success of all transport operations, the officer was awarded Sitara-i-Juraat.



Claiming him - my uncle

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## Munir

razgriz19 said:


> I'm pretty darn sure that if SHE crashed it, pilot error or something, she wouldn't be flying at all.
> If she is still flying then it was a technical fault. The maintenance guys are to be blamed for it, which are all MALE!



The plane are designed to take 5 G at minimum... Say the plane is 3000 Kg... Then the wing structure can take 15.000 Kg... I do not think that the pilots are that much heavy. And about females able to fly (fighters) or not... You should not judge others on being male or female but on their results. As far as I know everyone in the picture has passed the same exams. In every field. The issue is more that if the females start moving away from this job (marry and have children) then one should look at the financial side of this program,

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## Armstrong

muse said:


> Claiming him - my uncle



What the heck - Are you a Kashmiri Buttt ?


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## fatman17

*1971 SHUHADA & GALLENTRY* 


*Pilot Officer*;


Rashid Minhas - Nishan-i-Haider 
On the morning of Friday, 20 August 71, Pilot Officer Rashid Minhas, a pilot still under training, was in the front seat of jet a trainer, taxiing out for take-off. An instructor pilot from the same unit forced his way into the rear cockpit, seized control of the aircraft and having taken off, headed the aircraft towards India. With just 40 miles of Pakistan territory remaining, Minhas had only one course open to him to prevent his aircraft from entering India. Without hesitation and living up to the highest traditions of the Pakistan Air Force, Rashid Minhas tried to regain control of his aircraft, but finding this to be impossible in the face of the superior skill and experience of his instructor, forced the aircraft to crash at a point 32 miles from the Indian border. In doing so, Pilot Officer Rashid Minhas deliberately made the supreme sacrifice for the honour of Pakistan and the service to which he belonged. For this act of heroism above and beyond the call of duty, the President of Pakistan awarded Nishan-i-Haider to Pilot Officer Rashid Minhas. 


*Wing Commander*;


Mervyn L Middlecoat - Sitara-i-Juraat 
On the outbreak of war on 3 December 71, Wing Commander Mervyn L Middlecoat was on a training visit abroad. He returned to Pakistan immediately and joined operations with such keen interest that he inspired all the squadron pilots. The day after his arrival he was detailed on a strike mission to the heavily defended Jamnagar airfield. While returning after the successful mission he was engaged by 2 enemy Mig-21s. In the encounter his aircraft was hit by an enemy missile. He was heard to be ejecting in Indian Territory and was officially declared missing in action. For his devotion to duty, determination and courage he was awarded a Bar to the Sitara-i-Juraat.

Muhammed Ahmed - Sitara-i-Juraat
On 4 December, 71 one of our combat air patrols over Dhaka was engaged by an enemy formation. With the arrival of more enemy aircraft the patrol was heavily out-numbered and the leader gave a call for help. Wing Commander Muhammad Ahmed was immediately airborne and his timely intervention enabled the patrol to return safely to base. In the encounter Wing Commander Ahmed's aircraft was hit by an enemy aircraft and he was heard to be ejecting in territory occupied by rebels. For his personal example, courage and devotion to duty, he was awarded the Sitara-i-Juraat.

*Squadron Leader*; 

Aslam Choudhry - Sitara-i-Juraat
Squadron Leader Aslam Choudhry flew a total of fifteen missions since the outbreak of war. As he had spent most of his service in training establishments, he had to start with a disadvantage in a fighter squadron. But he was a keen pilot and managed to polish up his fighter flying in a comparatively short time. He was always keen to fly operational missions. On 10 December 71, while flying in leading a section of two F-86s in Chamb Sector on a Close Air Support mission, his flight was engaged by six Hunters. Being heavily out-numbered, he was presumed to have been shot down by the enemy. He was officially declared missing in action. For his valour, courage, determination and devotion to duty, he was awarded Sitara-i-Juraat.

Ghulam Rabbani &#8211; Sitara-i-Jurat 

Ishfaq Hameed - Sitara-i-Juraat
Squadron Leader Ishfaq Hameed was recalled from PIA for operational flying, with a B-57 Squadron. From the onset of the hostilities he displayed distinct qualities of patriotism and aggressiveness to achieve positive results. This was a source of inspiration to other aircrew. Unfortunately, he was unable to return from his second mission of the war on 5 December 71. Squadron Leader Ishfaq displayed exceptional determination and tenacity under adverse conditions that existed at his base from 4th morning of December till the night he went for his last mission. For his dedication, courage and display of excellent fighting spirit he was awarded Sitara-i-Juraat. 

Khusro - Sitara-i-Juraat
Squadron Leader Khusro had retired from the PAF but was recalled for the war. In spite of many personal problems, he showed great keenness, courage, determination and fighting spirit. On 6 December 71, he volunteered for bombing mission to Jamnagar airfield regardless of the consequences. He failed to return from the mission and was officially declared missing in action. His fighting spirit, determination and devotion were an example to all aircrew of the unit. For his outstanding courage and devotion to duty, Squadron Leader Khusro was awarded the Sitara-i-Juraat.

Muhammad Nasir Dar - Sitara-i-Basalat
Squadron Leader Muhammad Nasir Dar, a signals officer, achieved Shahadat as a result of a direct bomb hit on his place of work during war. He continued to work in spite of the heavy air raid and declined to take shelter. For his devotion to his work above and beyond the call of duty, he was awarded the Sitara-i-Basalat.

Peter Christie - Sitara-i-Juraat
Squadron Leader Peter Christie was on deputation to PIAC when recalled for war duties. He showed great keenness to fly, and in spite of overwhelming family responsibilities, he was ever willing to take on any mission at any odd hour of the day or night. He was completely devoted to the task in hand. His sense of humor under war conditions, his dedication to the cause of the country and his personal courage contributed immensely to the Squadron's morale. On 6th December 71, he was detailed as navigator for a bombing mission to Jamnagar. He failed to return from the mission and was officially declared missing in action. For his personal example and complete devotion to duty, he was awarded Sitara-i-Juraat.

*Flight Lieutenant;* 

A A M Saqlain - No Information Available 

Afzal Jamal Siddiqui - Sitara-i-Basalat
Flight Lieutenant Afzal Jamal Siddiqui displayed outstanding keenness, enthusiasm and aggressiveness during the 1971 war right till the time he was shot down and killed by our own ground fire, while chasing an enemy SU-7 aircraft on 8 December 71. By then he had flown six operational missions. His cheerful, bold and selfless attitude contributed largely to the high morale of his fellow pilots and inspired them to fight the enemy with greater tenacity. For his spirited and aggressive approach towards operational commitments, his sustained display of courage and enthusiasm in the air and on the ground, he was awarded Sitara-i-Basalat. 

Fazal Elahi - Sitara-i-Juraat 
Flight Lieutenant Fazal Elahi was a young and energetic pilot. He flew the first two missions to Srinagar airfield and subsequent Close Air Support missions every day till 7th December 71. On 8th December, his aircraft was hit by ground fire in Chamb-Jaurian sector; the ground fire presumably hit a bomb fuse, causing the aircraft to explode. Flight Lieutenant Fazal always volunteered to fly irrespective of the danger of the mission. He displayed exemplary courage and determination at his young age in spite of limited experience. He was awarded the Sitara-i-Juraat. 

Ghulam Murtaza - Tamgha-i-Juraat 
Flight Lieutenant Ghulam Murtaza was an able and experienced navigator. He was a very active member of the squadron and always showed great enthusiasm and determination. He flew two missions against the most heavily defended Indian airfields and showed great bravery and courage in execution of these missions in complete disregard of personal safety. On 5th December 71, he was detailed as navigator on a bombing mission to Amritsar airfield. He failed to return from the mission and was officially declared missing in action. For his courage, determination and devotion to duty, he was awarded the Tamgha-i-Juraat. 

Imdad Hussain 

Javed Iqbal - Tamgha-i-Juraat
Flight Lieutenant Javed Iqbal flew two missions against heavily defended Indian airfields. He displayed great courage, enthusiasm and determination. Although he was the junior most pilot in the squadron, he volunteered for these missions in complete disregard for personal safety. His devotion and dedication was a source of pride for all aircrew of his unit. On 5th December 71, he was detailed on a bombing mission to Amritsar airfield. He failed to return from the mission and was officially declared missing in action. For his outstanding courage, determination and devotion to duty, he was awarded the Tamgha-i-Juraat. 

Nayyar Iqbal 

Saeed Afzal Khan - Sitara-i-Juraat
On 4th December 71, Flight Lieutenant Saeed Afzal Khan was flying as No. 2 in a formation of two F-86 aircraft, when he engaged four Indian Hunters and immediately shot one down. Meanwhile another formation of four Hunters joined the aerial battle. In the subsequent combat, although facing great odds, he was not deterred from attacking them. He put up a gallant fight with complete disregard to his own safety. Due to his determination and flying skill, he prevented every one of them from attacking their target i.e. Dhaka airfield. While being heavily outnumbered by superior performance aircraft, he continued the fight but was later shot down by a Hunter. He bailed out safely but was captured by the rebels and has been missing since then. For his courage, determination and devotion to duty, he was awarded the Sitara-i-Juraat. 

Syed Safi Mustafa - Sitara-i-Juraat 
Flight Lieutenant Syed Safi Mustafa was Flight Commander of No. 246 Squadron PAF. Towards the end of February 71, orders were issued for MOUs to regroup and take shelter with the nearest army garrison due to the insecure conditions created by civil agitation. Flight Lieutenant Safi Mustafa along with 37 airmen thereupon took refuge with the East Pakistan Rifles' Headquarters at Mymensingh. Throughout the period of civil strife and agitation, he continued to look after his men with great courage and dedication. On 16th March he came to Dhaka for a day where he was advised by friends and relatives not to go back to his unit because of the prevailing danger to non-locals. He was, however, determined to return to his post and was in contact with the Base till 27th March. The evidence available indicates that in all probability, he was executed by the rebels on 17th April 1971. For his gallantry and dedication, Flight Lieutenant Syed Safi Mustafa was awarded the Sitara-i-Juraat. 

Abdul Samad Changazi - Sitara-i-Juraat 
Flight Lieutenant Abdul Samad Changezi flew eleven missions on F-104 during the war. Despite his limited experience, he was very keen and aggressive. He was responsible for the destruction of an enemy radar station and damage to one of their aircraft. In the last mission, disregarding the danger to his life, he pursued his attack on an enemy aircraft till he was shot down by an enemy missile. For his act of valour and for sacrificing his life for the cause of the country, he was awarded the Sitara-i-Juraat. 

Syed Shahid Raza - Tamgha-i-Juraat
Flight lieutenant Syed Shahid Raza flew a total of eleven operational missions during the war. Throughout the period, the officer displayed an extremely high standard of professional skill, aggressiveness and determination. On 5th December 71, during an aerial engagement, Flight Lieutenant Raza was credited with one enemy Hunter aircraft shot down. On the evening of 17th December, while off duty, he requested to be detailed for a close support mission. His aircraft was hit by enemy ground fire during that mission, and he was heard to be ejecting in enemy territory. He was officially declared missing in action. For his courage, determination and devotion to duty, he was awarded the Tamgha-i-Juraat.

Muhammad Wasim Ansari - Tamgha-i-Basalat 
Flight Lieutenant Muhammad Wasim Ansari, a signals officer, achieved Shahadat as a result of direct bomb hit on his place of work. This officer, inspired by a feeling of patriotism, carried on working under extremely dangerous conditions. This was above and beyond the call of duty. He was awarded the Tamgha-i-Basalat. 

Zulfiqar Ahmed - Sitara-i-Juraat
Flight Lieutenant Zulfiqar Ahmed was employed as a navigator on a B-57 aircraft. Although he could not return from his second mission of the war, he displayed outstanding qualities of courage and keenness to undertake the most arduous missions from the very onset of operations. This was a source of inspiration to others since he was one of the youngest crew members in the bomber organization. On the first day of operations, when only experienced and mature aircrew was being selected for the first strikes, Zulfiqar insisted on being included. He was eventually detailed for a mission to Jodhpur which was very successful. For his determination, courage and tenacity, he was awarded the Sitara-i-Juraat.

*Flying Officer*; 

Nasim Nisar Ali Baig - Tamgha-i-Juraat
Flying Officer Nasim Nisar Ali Baig flew a total of eight successful operational missions during the 1971 war. During all those missions he displayed exemplary courage, dedication and professionalism in spite of his limited experience. On 13th December 71, he was ordered to get airborne from a forward base to intercept intruding enemy aircraft. Immediately after take-off he was intercepted by three enemy fighters. Placed in a very vulnerable situation, Flying Officer Baig maneuvered his aircraft with determination and aggressiveness but was unable to gain an advantageous position because he was outnumbered during a critical stage of fight. He was subsequently shot down and fatally injured. For his valour, courage and undaunted spirit he was awarded the Tamgha-i-Juraat.

*Corporal Technician;* 

Syed Shaukat Ali - Tamgha-i-Juraat
Corporal Technician Syed Shaukat Ali while a POW in India conducted himself in an upright and fearless manner. He twice tried to escape from the POW camp. In the second attempt he received serious bullet injuries; even then he pounced upon the armed guard in a bid to prevent him from firing at his colleague Corporal Technician Nawab. For his outstanding and excellent performance, he was awarded the Tamgha-i-Juraat.


*Junior Technician* 

Mohammed Latif - Tamgha-i-Juraat 
During an enemy air raid, realizing that the pilots strapped in air defence alert aircraft were exposed to grave danger, Junior Technician Mohammed Latif disregarded his personal safety, ran up to each aircraft and helped the pilots to unstrap and take cover. In this process he was fatally wounded by enemy fire and died soon after. For his outstanding courage and devotion to duty, he was awarded the Tamgha-i-Juraat.


*Leading Aircraft Men* 

Mohammed Azam Nasir - Tamgha-i-Juraat 
During an enemy raid at PAF Chander, instead of taking shelter, Leading Aircraftman Mohammed Azam Nasir proudly faced the Indian bomber with G-3 rifle and kept on firing at the attacking aircraft. A bomb fell about six yards from his trench and buried him alongwith other occupants of the trench. All except he were dug out alive. For his outstanding courage and devotion to duty, he was awarded the Tamgha-i-Juraat. 



*1971 GALLANTRY AWARDS* 


*Air Marshal;* 

A Rahim Khan - Hilal-i-Juraat


*Group Captain* 

Inam H Khan - Hilal-i-Juraat


*Wing Commander* 

Hakimullah - Sitara-i-Juraat
Wing Commander Hakimullah was commanding a fighter bomber squadron during the Indo-Pakistan War, 1971. He led five strike missions against heavily defended enemy airfields. Every mission, led by him, including the first strike against Amritsar, was flown with tremendous courage and exceptional professional skill. He flew with nerve and cool composure, which was a source of inspiration to his team in particular and everyone else connected with operational activity in general. During some of these strikes his formation was intercepted by enemy fighters over Indian airfields. Wing Commander Hakimullah lived up to the highest traditions of leadership during these critical moments and accomplished the primary mission. Throughout the war, his unit inspired by him, flew boldly and without any losses in aircraft or pilot. For his gallant and professional performance, He has been awarded Sitara-i-Juraat.

M. Afzal Choudhry - Sitara-i-Juraat 

Mahmood Akhtar - Sitara-i-Basalat
Wing Commander Mahmood Akhtar was commanding a B-57 detachment during the war. From the onset of operations his performance was a source of inspiration to all. His personal example and courage under dangerous and trying conditions were never in doubt. Wing Commander Akhtar always went out of his way to fly the most difficult missions and proved time and again that there is no substitute for professionalism and determination. His example, Cheerful attitude and high moral kept the force together even under the most difficult conditions. He has time and again thrown personal safety aside and has launched missions during enemy raids at the Base, when he could easily have aborted them. For his courage, leadership and excellent administration he has been awarded Bar to Sitara-i-Basalat. 

Syed Nisar Yunus - Sitara-i-Basalat
Wing Commander Syed Nasir Yunus was in Dhaka at the time the Army started operation in East Pakistan. He flew many hazardous transport missions for the initial deployment of the army to various places. This included recapture of some of the rebel-held airfields. Many a time, he received anonymous telephone calls to suspend C-130 operations; otherwise he and his crew would be killed. Undeterred by these threats he flew six to eight missions a day. He also flew recce missions to spot and locate enemy ships that were deployed in the Bay of Bengal. On one mission he was able to locate an element of three enemy ships, which turned to fire on his aircraft, but he was able to evade successfully. During December 1971, Wing Commander Yunus guided and conducted the operations of his squadron most ably. His devotion to duty has been a source of inspiration to all; Wing Commander Yunus has displayed conspicuous courage, determination and has made outstanding contribution to the over-all achievement of the P.A.F. In recognition of his services, Wing Commander Syed Nasir Yunus has been awarded Sitara-i-Basalat. 


*Squadron Leader* 


Abdul Basit - Sitara-i-Juraat
Squadron Leader Abdul Basit was detailed on an air mission against the I.A.F. Base at Halwara on the night of 10/11th December, 1971. He flew the mission as planned. While a few minutes short of the target four surface-to-air missiles were fired at his B-57 aircraft. He displayed great courage, skill and devotion to duty, evaded these missiles, continued on his mission and successfully attacked the target even though there was all the likelihood of the enemy firing more SAM's. For his courage, determination and devotion to duty Squadron Leader Abdul Basit has been awarded Sitara-i-Juraat.

Farooq Omer - Sitara-i-Juraat
Squadron Leader Farooq Omer was employed on day and night air defence and reconnaissance duties during the Indo-Pakistan war of 1971. He flew reconnaissance mission against heavily defended enemy airfields and forward army positions. He always flew with immense courage and determination. On one of the recce missions, because of a bird hit his aircraft sustained engine damage but he resolutely continued his mission and successfully completed it against a heavily defended enemy airfield. On an air defence mission, Squadron Leader Farooq Omer successfully intercepted an enemy formation of Hunter aircraft and shot down / damaged four of them. The immense courage and determination displayed by Squadron Leader Farooq Omer during the war was always a source of inspiration to other pilots of squadron. He has been awarded Sitara-i-Juraat. 

Ghulam Ahmed Khan - Sitara-i-Juraat
Squadron Leader Ghulam Ahmed Khan was detailed along with Squadron Leader A. Basit on a counter air mission against the I.A.F. Base at Halwara on the night of 10/11th December, 1971. He flew the mission as planned. While a few minutes short of the target 4 SAMs were fired at his B-57 aircraft. He displayed great courage, skill and devotion to duty, assisted his pilot in evading these missiles, continuing the mission and successfully attacking the target even though there was all the likelihood of the enemy firing more SAMs. For his courage, determination and devotion to duty Squadron Leader Ghulam Ahmed Khan has been awarded Sitara-i-Juraat. 

Hassan Akhtar - Sitara-i-Basalat 

Javed Afzal Ahmed - Sitara-i-Juraat
On 4th December, 1971 while flying on an air defence mission, Squadron Leader Javed Afzal Ahmed intercepted a formation of four Hunters approaching Dhaka airfield. During the combat he shot down two Hunters and chased away the others, thus preventing them from attacking any target. In the same mission, he engaged a formation of two SU-7 aircraft's which were attacking a Pakistan Army helicopter and chased them away. Throughout the war he fought valiantly. For his courage and excellent performance in the face of heavy odds, Squadron Leader Afzal has been awarded Sitara-i-Juraat. 

Maqsood Ahmed - Sitara-i-Basalat 

M. R. Akhtar - Sitara-i-Basalat 

Nazir Ahmed Khan - Sitara-i-Basalat
Squadron Leader Nazir Ahmed Khan, S.J., has consistently displayed outstanding courage, determination and devotion to duty both during peace and war. Squadron Leader Nazir was among the first crews to participate in the operations in East Pakistan. This involved flying long and tiring hours in adverse weather and hostile environment. He displayed the highest degree of devotion, courage and determination and flew extensively to deploy Army elements for recapture of rebel-held areas. Determined to carry out the task, he flew without any regard for personal comfort. While operating from Jessore his aircraft was hit by ground fire from the rebels surrounding the air field. Undeterred by the prevailing danger he flew on similar missions for re-capture and support of Lalmunir Hat, Ishurdi and other places. His fortitude and courage proved a great source of inspiration to others. During the December war he displayed exceptional courage, determination and devotion to duty. Squadron Leader Nazir Ahmed Khan has been awarded Sitara-i-Basalat. 


*Flight Lieutenant* 


Abdul Karim Bhatti - Tamgha-i-Juraat
On 7th December, 1971, Flight Lieutenant Abdul Karim Bhatti sighted two Hunters during a close support mission. On leader's instructions he engaged one of the Hunters, pursued it for about 15 miles over enemy territory and finally shot it down. In the process he lost contact with his leader. Flight Lieutenant Bhatti, alone and without any cover, pursued the attack, disregarding his personal safety and achieved a kill. For his devotion to duty and courageous performance, he has been awarded Tamgha-i-Juraat. 

Abdul Wajid Saleem - Sitara-i-Juraat
Flight Lieutenant Abdul Wajid Saleem was the navigator of an aircraft detailed on a mission against an P.A.F. base on the night of 6/7th December, 1971. He planned the mission with great care. During the flight, Flight Lieutenant Abdul Wajid displayed a high degree of professionalism and courage which were a source of inspiration to all other crew members. As the aircraft approached the target it encountered heavy anti-aircraft fire. His accurate tactical navigation ensured a successful mission against heavy odds. In recognition of his devotion to duty and courage, Flight Lieutenant Abdul Wajid Saleem has been awarded Sitara-i-Juraat. 

Israr Ahmed - Sitara-i-Juraat
On 4th December, 1971, Flight Lieutenant Israr Ahmad was detailed to fly a mission over the Chamb-Akhnur sector. While over the battle area, his aircraft was hit by enemy ground fire and the pilot was seriously injured. In spite of his injuries, the pilot climbed to height, flew the aircraft and landed at a base during an air raid warning. When he was removed from the cockpit it was found that his right upper arm bone was shattered and he was suffering from serious loss of blood. Flight Lieutenant Israr showed tremendous courage and determination in flying the aircraft back and landing at his base with his left arm in spite of his injuries. In doing this, he displayed sterling qualities of devotion to duty and courage and determination. In recognition of his performance, he has been awarded Sitara-i-Juraat. 

Javed Ahmed - Sitara-i-Juraat
Flight lieutenant Javed Ahmed flew a total of 12 operational missions during the war. He conducted all the missions with courage, skill and in complete disregard of his personal safety. On 4th December, 1971 Flight Lieutenant Javed was detailed to fly as No.2 on an air defence mission. As he was scrambled for take-off, the airfield was subjected to a surprise attack by two enemies Hunter aircraft. Flight Lieutenant Javed was about to take off when the enemy aircraft spotted the aircraft on the runway and commenced a strafing attack forcing the leader to abort. With total disregard to his personal safety this pilot continued his take-off with the enemy bullets landing just to the left of his aircraft. After successfully getting airborne, Flight Lieutenant Javed intercepted the raiders and shot down one of the Hunters. In continuing his take-off in the face of grave danger to his life and subsequently shooting down the enemy aircraft Flight Lieutenant Javed has lived up to the true traditions of the P.A.F. For his display of the highest standard of initiatives, courage and professional skill beyond the call of duty, Flight Lieutenant Javed Ahmed has been awarded Sitara-i-Juraat.


Javed Latif - Tamgha-i-Juraat
During the war, Flight Lieutenant Javed Latif flew twenty operational missions in Air Defence role and displayed professional excellence, cool courage and aggressive spirit of a very high order. Throughout the war, he remained undeterred by hazards posed to his personal safety and undertook tasks assigned to him even though their execution was fraught with many risks. On 4th December, 1971 at 0920 hours he was ordered to scramble for combat air patrol. When he was still in the process of starting up his aircraft, the airfield was attacked by two enemy SU-7s. His aircraft pen received a direct rocket hit but luckily no damage was caused to his aircraft. Under the circumstances he was fully justified to abandon his aircraft and take cover but he decided to continue his mission and successfully destroyed one enemy SU-7 aircraft which attacked the airfield ten minutes later. For his professional excellence, cool courage and a high degree of aggressive spirit when in contact with the enemy, Flight Lieutenant Javed Latif has been awarded Tamgha-i-Juraat. 

Maqsood Amir - Tamgha-i-Juraat
Flight Lieutenant Maqsood Amir was detailed to carry out a close support mission in an F-86 aircraft on 17th December, 1971. During the mission his formation was engaged by four MIG-21s. Although the F-86 was in a vulnerable position, Flight Lieutenant Maqsood took aggressive evasive action and swiftly maneuvered to gain offensive on the enemy. In the ensuing combat, he handled his aircraft against a much superior adversary in a professional and skillful manner and shot down one of the MIG-21s. The sequence of shooting recorded by his aircraft camera film reflects a very high professional standard. For his courage and high professional skill, he has been awarded Tamgha-i-Juraat. 

Mir Alam Khan - Sitara-i-Juraat
Flight Lieutenant Mir Alam Khan was detailed on a mission against an I.A.F. base on 6th December, 1971. At the time of his take-off, the airfield came under enemy raid. Undaunted by the danger, he took off during the raid and proceeded on his mission. Despite heavy anti-aircraft fire he successfully completed his mission. During this mission, his aircraft also received a hit from anti-aircraft fire. However, he successfully exited leaving behind his target in flames. The fire was also seen by another friendly aircraft flying thirty miles away. Flight Lieutenant Mir Alam Khan's action in the execution of his mission bears testimony to his undaunted courage and devotion to duty in keeping with the highest traditions of the service. He has been awarded Sitara-i-Juraat. 

Taloot Mirza -Tamgha-i-Juraat
Flight Lieutenant Taloot Mirza flew a total of fifteen operational missions and was engaged in aerial combat thrice. He demonstrated a high degree of cool courage in both ground attack and aerial combat. On 10th December, 1971, when on a close support mission, his formation of two aircrafts was engaged by six enemy SU-7 aircrafts. Flight Lieutenant Taloot accepted the challenge coolly and successfully destroyed one SU-7 in the face of heavy odds. For his courage and dedication to service he has been awarded Tamgha-i-Juraat.


*Flying Officer* 


Mohammad Shamsul Haq - Sitara-i-Juraat
During the war Flying Officer Mohammad Shamsul Haq, being the youngest member of the squadron with the least experience of flying, acquitted himself with exemplary courage and skill. On 4th December, 1971 he was ordered to scramble and intercept a formation of four SU-7 aircraft's attacking Dhaka airfield. As he got airborne, the SU-7s attacked his formation with missiles. He very coolly broke into the attacking aircraft at very low speed and asked his wingman to do the same and in the ensuing battle shot down on SU-7. Meanwhile four Hunters joined the battle. He engaged these Hunters and shot down two of them. There-after he was attacked by 4 MIG-21's. He put off their attack by quick planning and superior handling of aircraft. Against such heavy odds he displayed exemplary courage and leadership. Flying Officer Shamsul Haq has been awarded Sitara-i-Juraat.

Riffat Jamil - Sitara-i-Juraat
Flying Officer Riffat Jamil flew as a co-pilot on a bombing mission to Jaisalmir on 6th December, 1971. He made a significant contribution to the success of the mission as result of which the enemy suffered heavy losses. In recognition of his courage and determination, he has been awarded Sitara-i-Juraat 

Syed Shamshad Ahmed - Sitara-i-Juraat
On 4th December, 1971 Flying Officer Syed Shamshad Ahmed was scrambled to intercept a formation of four SU-7s attacking Dhaka airfield. As he got airborne he was attacked by the SU-7s with missiles. He put off their attack by superior handling of his aircraft. In the same mission he intercepted a formation of four Hunters. In the subsequent air battle he shot down one Hunter. On another mission he spotted one Hunter attacking our troop positions. Fearlessly he engaged that aircraft and shot it down. Though very young and having very little experience of fighter flying he kept his spirits high and displayed great courage throughout the war. For his courage, skill and performance, Flying Officer Syed Shamshad Ahmed has been awarded Sitara-i-Juraat. 


*Warrant officer* 

Abdul Haq - Tamgha-i-Juraat



*Senior Technician* 

Asghar Ali - Tamgha-i-Juraat

Sajjad Shah - Tamgha-i-Juraat 


*Flight Sargent * 


Abdul Majid - Tamgha-i-Basalat 
Abdul Rashid - Tamgha-i-Basalat
Amir-ud-din - Tamgha-i-Basalat 


*Corporal* 

Afzal Abbasi - Tamgha-i-Juraat
Muhammad Ghazanfar - Tamgha-i-Juraat 


*Junior Technician* 

Muhammad Latif - Tamgha-i-Juraat
During an enemy air raid, realizing that the pilots strapped in air defence alert aircraft were exposed to grave danger, Junior Technician Muhammad Latif disregarded his personal safety, ran up to each aircraft and helped the pilots to unstrap and take cover. In this process he was fatally wounded by enemy fire and died soon after. For his outstanding courage and devotion to duty, he was awarded the Tamgha-i-Juraat.


LEST WE FORGET&#8230;!!!

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## Safriz

PAF s' Specials
Article: Shahbaz Over Golan

by Air Cdre (Retd) Kaiser Tufail

Post-haste summons for volunteers found an eager band of sixteen PAF fighter pilots on their way to the Middle East, in the midst of the 1973 Ramadan war. After a grueling Peshawar-Karachi-Baghdad flight on a PAF C-130, they were whisked off to Damascus by road. Upon arrival, half the batch was told to stay back in Syria while the rest were earmarked for Egypt. By the time the PAF batch reached Cairo, Egypt had agreed to a cease-fire; it was therefore decided that they would continue as instructors. But in Syria, it was another story.

The batch in Syria was made up of pilots who were already serving there on deputation (except one), but had been repatriated before the war. Now they were back in familiar surroundings as well as familiar aircraft, the venerable MiG-21. They were posted to No 67 Squadron, Alpha Detachment (all PAF). Hasty checkouts were immediately followed by serious business of Air Defence Alert scrambles and Combat Air Patrols from the air base at Dumayr near Damascus.

Syria had not agreed to a cease-fire, since Israeli operations in Golan were continuing at a threatening pace. Israeli Air Force missions included interdiction under top cover, well supported by intense radio jamming as the PAF pilots discovered. The PAF formation, using the call sign &#8216;Shahbaz,&#8217; was formidable in size &#8211; all of eight aircraft. Shahbaz soon came to stand out as one that couldn't be messed with, in part because its tactics were innovative and bold. Survival, however, in a jammed-radio environment was concern number one. As a precaution, the Pakistanis decided to switch to Urdu for fear of being monitored in English. Suspicions were confirmed during one patrol, when healthy Punjabi invectives hurled on radio got them wondering if Mossad had recruited a few &#8216;Khalsas[1]&#8217; for the job!

After several months of sporadic activity, it seemed that hostilities were petering out. While the Shahbaz patrols over Lebanon and Syria had diminished in frequency, routine training sorties started to register a rise. Under these conditions it was a surprise when on the afternoon of 26th April 1974, the siren blasted from the airshafts of the underground bunker. Backgammon boards were pushed aside and the coffee session was interrupted as all eight pilots rushed to their MiGs; they were airborne within minutes. From Dumayr to Beirut, then along the Mediterranean coast till Sidon, and a final leg eastwards, skirting Damascus and back to Base &#8211; this was the usual patrol, flown at an altitude of 20,000 ft. The limited fuel of their early model MiG-21F permitted just a 30-minute sortie; this was almost over when ground radar blurted out on the radio that two bogeys were approaching from the southerly direction ie, Israel. At this stage fuel was low and an engagement was the least preferred option. Presented with a fait accompli, the leader of the formation called a defensive turn into the bogeys. Just then heavy radio jamming started, sounding somewhat similar to the &#8216;takka tak[2]&#8217; at our meat joints, only more shrill. While the formation was gathering itself after the turn, two Israeli F-4E Phantoms sped past almost head-on, seemingly unwilling to engage. Was it a bait?

Flt Lt Sattar Alvi, now the rear-most in the formation, was still adjusting after the hard turn when he caught sight of two Mirage-IIICJ zooming into them from far below. With no way of warning the formation of the impending disaster, he instinctively decided to handle them alone. Peeling away from his formation, he turned hard into the Mirages so that one of them overshot. Against the other, he did a steep reversal dropping his speed literally to zero. (It takes some guts to let eight tons of metal hang up in unfriendly air!) The result was that within moments, the second Mirage filled his gunsight. While Sattar worried about having to concentrate for precious seconds in aiming and shooting, the lead Mirage started to turn around to get Sattar. Thinking that help was at hand, the target Mirage decided to accelerate away. A quick-witted Sattar reckoned that a missile shot would be just right for the range his target had opened up to. A pip of a button later, a K-13 heat-seeker sped off towards the tail of the escaping Mirage. Sattar recollects that it wasn&#8217;t as much an Israeli aircraft as a myth that seemed to explode in front of him. (The letter &#8216;J&#8217; in Mirage-IIICJ stood for &#8216;Jewish,&#8217; it may be noted.) He was tempted to watch the flaming metal rain down, but with the other Mirage lurking around and fuel down to a few hundred litres, he decided to exit. Diving down with careless abandon, he allowed a couple of sonic bangs over Damascus. (Word has it that the Presidential Palace wasn't amused!) His fuel tanks bone dry, Sattar made it to Dumayr on the vapours that remained.

As the other formation members started to trickle in, the leader, Sqn Ldr Arif Manzoor anxiously called out for Sattar to check if he was safe. All had thought that Sattar, a bit of a maverick that he was, had landed himself in trouble. Shouts of joy went up on the radio, however, when they learnt that he had been busy shooting down a Mirage.

The Syrians were overwhelmed when they learnt that the impunity and daring of the Pakistani pilots had paid off. Sattar was declared a blood brother, for he had shared in shedding the blood of a common enemy, the Syrians explained!

Sattar's victim Captain M Lutz[3] of No 5 Air Wing based at Hatzor, ejected out of his disintegrating aircraft. It has been learnt that the Mirages were on a reconnaissance mission, escorted by Phantoms of No 1 Air Wing operating out of Ramat David Air Base. The Phantoms were to trap any interceptors while the Mirages carried out the recce. Timely warning by the radar controller (Flt Lt Saleem Metla, also from the PAF) had turned the tables on the escorts, allowing Sattar to sort out the Mirages.

The success of Shahbaz over Golan is testimony to the skills of all PAF pilots, insists Sattar, as he thinks any one could have got the kill had he been &#8216;Shahbaz-8&#8217; on that fateful day. The Syrian Government awarded the Wisam al-Shuja'a to all the formation members. Additionally, Sattar and Arif were admitted as &#8216;knights&#8217; (al-faris) in the coveted Wisam al-Istehqaq al-Suriya, one of the country&#8217;s highest awards for honourable and devoted service. The Government of Pakistan awarded Sattar and Arif with a Sitara-i-Jur&#8217;at as well. Sattar, an epitome of a fighter pilot, befittingly went on to command PAF&#8217;s elite Combat Commanders&#8217; School and the premier PAF Base, Rafiqui. Many a fighter pilot trained by Sattar would swear by his audaciousness in the air. Even today, crew room lore persists that fighter pilots don&#8217;t come any bolder!
PAF Falcons - PAF s' Specials - Shahbaz Over Golan

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## MastanKhan

Armstrong said:


> Oh for godsake *Mastan Bhai* - Jaaan davooo ghusaaaa !
> 
> Why criticize for the sake of 'criticizing' ?



My goodman,

Some people keep coming back for more and more---and when I read Bossman's post---I remembered this joke---he keeps coming back for more and more just like this hunter----So read and enjoy

" A hunter decides one day that he is going to go into the woods and try to hunt a bear. He searches for several hours until he comes across a meadow and walking across the meadow is a big bear. The hunter gets ready to take his shot and just before he pulls the trigger a big heavy paw falls on his shoulder. He turns around and standing there is an even bigger bear. Then the bear says to the hunter "ok you have two choices I can either kill you or we can have sex." The hunter who doesnt want to die agrees to have sex with the bear. After they are done the hunter returns to his house mad as hell. He swears that he is going to get revenge on the bear and kill it. So the next day he again goes into the woods looking for the bear that raped him. He comes to the same meadow and sees a bear walking across. He again gets ready to shoot and get his revenge when again a paw lands on his shoulder. He turns around and there stands the bear again. The bear gives the hunter the same two choices he can either be killed or have sex with the bear. Again the hunter has sex with the bear and returns to his house and he is totally furious that he got raped again. So the next day he again goes into the woods looking for the bear so he can shoot it. He goes to same meadow and is sitting there waiting for the bear to appear when once again he feels a paw land on his shoulder. He turns around looks up at the bear and then the bear smiles and says "you dont come here for the hunting do you?"

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## Bossman

MastanKhan said:


> My goodman,
> 
> Some people keep coming back for more and more---and when I read Bossman's post---I remembered this joke---he keeps coming back for more and more just like this hunter----So read and enjoy
> 
> " A hunter decides one day that he is going to go into the woods and try to hunt a bear. He searches for several hours until he comes across a meadow and walking across the meadow is a big bear. The hunter gets ready to take his shot and just before he pulls the trigger a big heavy paw falls on his shoulder. He turns around and standing there is an even bigger bear. Then the bear says to the hunter "ok you have two choices I can either kill you or we can have sex." The hunter who doesnt want to die agrees to have sex with the bear. After they are done the hunter returns to his house mad as hell. He swears that he is going to get revenge on the bear and kill it. So the next day he again goes into the woods looking for the bear that raped him. He comes to the same meadow and sees a bear walking across. He again gets ready to shoot and get his revenge when again a paw lands on his shoulder. He turns around and there stands the bear again. The bear gives the hunter the same two choices he can either be killed or have sex with the bear. Again the hunter has sex with the bear and returns to his house and he is totally furious that he got raped again. So the next day he again goes into the woods looking for the bear so he can shoot it. He goes to same meadow and is sitting there waiting for the bear to appear when once again he feels a paw land on his shoulder. He turns around looks up at the bear and then the bear smiles and says "you dont come here for the hunting do you?"



Last time I read a fairy tale or an Aesop fable I was kid so obviously I did not or for that matter anybody else on this forum read Mastaan's story. But I do appreciate the attention he is giving me.I must have touched upon something sensitive this time.


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## Tacticool

After the government change, and a budget announcement in june, can we expect a steady flow of funds for our delayed projects i.e., jf-17, ak2, next gen. subs, new gun ships?

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## Munir

do you think there is any left or that this government is going to be correct?


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## fatman17

Abdul_Haseeb said:


> After the government change, and a budget announcement in june, can we expect a steady flow of funds for our delayed projects i.e., jf-17, ak2, next gen. subs, new gun ships?



not for a while.......


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## Jango

Abdul_Haseeb said:


> After the government change, and a budget announcement in june, can we expect a steady flow of funds for our delayed projects i.e., jf-17, ak2, next gen. subs, new gun ships?



Not within a year atleast, economy takes alot of time to put back in order.

One thing that Nawaz Sharif can be expected to do is do something better with the economy.

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## Windjammer

Nigeria To Partner With Pakistan Airforce On Security  www.channelstv.com

Nigeria on Tuesday agreed to strengthen military ties with Pakistan through training and supply of defence equipment. 

The agreement was reached at a meeting between the head of Pakistan air force, Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique-Butt and top Nigerian military officers in Abuja.

Air Chief Marshal Rafique-Butt, who is on a five-day visit to the country, arrived at the Nigerian Airforce Headquarters in the company of the Nigerian Chief of Air Staff, Air Marshal Alex Bardeh.

The visitor told the Nigerian military authorities that the Pakistan air force is eager to collaborate with the Nigerian military to ensure that the country becomes a self-sufficient air force like Pakistan.

Air Marshal Bardeh thanked the Pakistani delegation for its assistance to the Nigerian Airforce and requested for more assistance and cooperation between the two countries.

Air Chief Marshal Rafique-Butt restated the need for cooperation, saying he looked forward to seeing the discussions and memorandum of understanding turning to tangible actions.

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## fatman17

*AFM - June Issue*

Supplement - 2013 MILITARY DISPLAY TEAMS of the World
Mark Broadbent details all the military demonstration teams from around the world in our 16-page pull-out special.

wondering if PAF Sherdils are detailed?


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## imiakhtar

fatman17 said:


> *AFM - June Issue*
> 
> Supplement - 2013 MILITARY DISPLAY TEAMS of the World
> Mark Broadbent details all the military demonstration teams from around the world in our 16-page pull-out special.
> 
> wondering if PAF Sherdils are detailed?



They were but there were very little details.

It mentioned aircraft type, brief history, airshows attended, display routine and the names of pilots (Pakistani pilots weren't named)

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## Nishan_101

Windjammer said:


> Nigeria To Partner With Pakistan Airforce On Security  www.channelstv.com
> 
> Nigeria on Tuesday agreed to strengthen military ties with Pakistan through training and supply of defence equipment.
> 
> The agreement was reached at a meeting between the head of Pakistan air force, Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique-Butt and top Nigerian military officers in Abuja.
> 
> Air Chief Marshal Rafique-Butt, who is on a five-day visit to the country, arrived at the Nigerian Airforce Headquarters in the company of the Nigerian Chief of Air Staff, Air Marshal Alex Bardeh.
> 
> The visitor told the Nigerian military authorities that the Pakistan air force is eager to collaborate with the Nigerian military to ensure that the country becomes a self-sufficient air force like Pakistan.
> 
> Air Marshal Bardeh thanked the Pakistani delegation for its assistance to the Nigerian Airforce and requested for more assistance and cooperation between the two countries.
> 
> Air Chief Marshal Rafique-Butt restated the need for cooperation, saying he looked forward to seeing the discussions and memorandum of understanding turning to tangible actions.



I think PAC should sell them about:
30-50 Super Mushak
20+ K-8s
10 Falco
and other UAV from NESCOM, KRL and GIDS.


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## Safriz

The Pakistan Air Force is assisting the Nigerian Air
Force with maintenance and training for its F-7 fighter
jets and in building the Nigerian Air Forces capacity.
Last week the Chief of Air Staff of the Pakistan Air Force,
Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt, paid an official five-
day visit to the Nigerian Air Force (NAF) as part of
efforts to strengthen bilateral defence relations. Butt
said he would help the Nigerian Air Force reach its full
potential and promised that the Pakistani Air Force and
the Defence Industries of Pakistan will not hold anything
back from the Nigerian people and the Nigerian Air
Force. When we cooperate more, we will develop to
reach higher heights, Pan-African news agency (Pana)
quotes him as saying.
Pana reports that Pakistani Air Force personnel are
present in Nigeria working to maintain Nigerian aircraft.
Two Pakistani pilots are providing technical assistance
for the Air Forces Chinese-built F-7NI and FT-7NI jets.
Pakistan also operates the type and has trained Nigerian
pilots.
The Pakistanis were brought in following several F-7
crashes and the loss of maintenance schedules, which
resulted in the grounding of the fleet in October 2012.
After assistance from the Pakistan Air Force, the jets
were cleared to fly again, Pana reports.
Nigeria received 12 F-7Ni fighters and three FT-7Ni
trainers from China, with deliveries commencing in 2009.
An F-7Ni crashed in May 2012 whilst another one was
lost in March 2011.
Nigerian Chief of Air Staff, Air Marshal Alex Sabundu
Badeh, said the Pakistanis had sent teams to look at the
F-7s and instruct the Nigerian Air Force. He added that
in addition to the F-7s, the NAF was looking for
assistance with its C-130 transport aircraft, as well as
instructor pilots for them, and also wanted help training
pilots at the Nigerian Air Academy. Nigeria is in the
process of refurbishing some of its grounded C-130s.
Butts visit comes after Badeh visited Pakistan last year.
Butt also met with Nigerias Chief of Defence Staff,
Admiral Ola Saad Ibrahim, and other officials and agreed
to increase defence cooperation between Pakistan and
Nigeria. He said that the Pakistan Air Force was ready to
cooperate with the NAF regarding combating militancy
and terrorism, especially as this has also been the bane
of Pakistan. Last week the Nigerian Air Force launched
air strikes against Boko Haram militants in the north of
the country. Numerous aircraft, including Alpha Jet
trainers/light attack jets, have been deployed as part of
the operation.


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## Jango

Maybe we could send some thunders their way later in the future!


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## fatman17

Safriz said:


> The Pakistan Air Force is assisting the Nigerian Air
> Force with maintenance and training for its F-7 fighter
> jets and in building the Nigerian Air Force&#8217;s capacity.
> Last week the Chief of Air Staff of the Pakistan Air Force,
> Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt, paid an official five-
> day visit to the Nigerian Air Force (NAF) as part of
> efforts to strengthen bilateral defence relations. Butt
> said he would help the Nigerian Air Force reach its full
> potential and promised that &#8220;the Pakistani Air Force and
> the Defence Industries of Pakistan will not hold anything
> back from the Nigerian people and the Nigerian Air
> Force. When we cooperate more, we will develop to
> reach higher heights,&#8221; Pan-African news agency (Pana)
> quotes him as saying.
> Pana reports that Pakistani Air Force personnel are
> present in Nigeria working to maintain Nigerian aircraft.
> Two Pakistani pilots are providing technical assistance
> for the Air Force&#8217;s Chinese-built F-7NI and FT-7NI jets.
> Pakistan also operates the type and has trained Nigerian
> pilots.
> The Pakistanis were brought in following several F-7
> crashes and the loss of maintenance schedules, which
> resulted in the grounding of the fleet in October 2012.
> After assistance from the Pakistan Air Force, the jets
> were cleared to fly again, Pana reports.
> Nigeria received 12 F-7Ni fighters and three FT-7Ni
> trainers from China, with deliveries commencing in 2009.
> An F-7Ni crashed in May 2012 whilst another one was
> lost in March 2011.
> Nigerian Chief of Air Staff, Air Marshal Alex Sabundu
> Badeh, said the Pakistanis had sent teams to look at the
> F-7s and instruct the Nigerian Air Force. He added that
> in addition to the F-7s, the NAF was looking for
> assistance with its C-130 transport aircraft, as well as
> instructor pilots for them, and also wanted help training
> pilots at the Nigerian Air Academy. Nigeria is in the
> process of refurbishing some of its grounded C-130s.
> Butt&#8217;s visit comes after Badeh visited Pakistan last year.
> Butt also met with Nigeria&#8217;s Chief of Defence Staff,
> Admiral Ola Sa&#8217;ad Ibrahim, and other officials and agreed
> to increase defence cooperation between Pakistan and
> Nigeria. He said that the Pakistan Air Force was ready to
> cooperate with the NAF regarding combating militancy
> and terrorism, especially as this has also been the bane
> of Pakistan. Last week the Nigerian Air Force launched
> air strikes against Boko Haram militants in the north of
> the country. Numerous aircraft, including Alpha Jet
> trainers/light attack jets, have been deployed as part of
> the operation.



posted already...


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## fatman17

Thursday, May 23, 2013 


*PAF chief observes tri-national air exercise in Saudi Arabia*


* Exercise among RSAF, TuAF and PAF was held at King Fahd Air Base from May 6 to 22 


ISLAMABAD: Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force (PAF), Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt observed International Air Exercise Peace Falcons-2013 in Taif, Saudi Arabia.

On his arrival he was presented with the Guard of Honour. The air chief was given a comprehensive briefing on the exercise. Chief of the Air Staff, Royal Saudi Air Force (RSAF) Lt General Mohammed Fayadh bin Hamid Al Ruwaili and Turkish

Air Force (TuAF) Commander, General Mehmet Erten also witnessed the exercise.

According to a press release issued by PAF, the Tri Nation International Air Exercise Peace Falcons-2013 among RSAF, TuAF and PAF was held at King Fahd Air Base, Taif, Saudi Arabia from May 6 to 22.

PAF Contingent comprising F16s, Mirages Rose-II and 180 personnel participated in the Exercise with members of other two brother countries. 

Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Turkey have a long history of military cooperation. 

The Air Forces of these brotherly countries have been successfully conducting joint exercises for many decades to enhance mutual understanding among them.

In this exercise, the contingents of three Air Forces undertook joint planning and execution of various combat missions.

The exercise will hone their professional skills and enhance existing brotherly relations between the three countries and their Air Forces.

Earlier, Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt, who is on an official visit to Saudi Arabia, also called on Lt General Mohammed Fayadh bin Hamid Al Ruwaili at RSAF HQs. Both the dignitaries discussed matters of mutual interest and various fields of future cooperation between the two brotherly Air Forces. The Air Chief also met with Pakistani contingent which is providing training of Mushshak aircraft to RSAF personnel at King Faisal Air Academy. app


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## fatman17

*Major Flaws in Hamoodur Rehman Commission Report *


Friday, 17 May 2013

Written by Nasim Yousaf

The Hamoodur Rehman Commission Report (HRCR) is missing many crucial pieces of the puzzle with regards to the factors that led to the division of Pakistan (into Pakistan and Bangladesh) in 1971. A fresh inquiry is needed to fill this major gap.

On December 16, 1971, Bangladesh (formerly East Pakistan) achieved its independence, following a most humiliating surrender by nearly 90,000 soldiers of the Pakistan Armed Forces. Ten days after the emergence of Bangladesh, the Government of Pakistan (through notification Number: SRO _ 71, dated December 26, 1971) appointed the Hamoodur Rehman Commission to investigate the events leading up to the surrender of the armed forces of Pakistan in East Pakistan and the ceasefire on the borders of West Pakistan. The Commission was comprised of three senior judges: Chief Justice of the Supreme Court Hamoodur Rehman, Chief Justice of the Lahore High Court Anwarul Haq, and Chief Justice of the Sind and Baluchistan High Court Justice Tufail Ali Abdul Rehman Zubedi. However, when the Commission completed its inquiry, the final report was promptly shelved in order to keep its findings hidden.

In August of 2000, extracts from the Commission&#8217;s final report were leaked and published by &#8220;India Today.&#8221; Thereafter, the HRC report was printed in book form by a Pakistani publisher under the title The Report of the Hamoodur Rehman Commission of Inquiry into the 1971 War [Declassified by the Government of Pakistan]. As per the contents of this book, the original HRC report had &#8220;4000 typed pages&#8221; and &#8220;374 exhibits.&#8221; However, the published version of the report included only 545 pages (the full version does not appear to have been published).


*I am currently doing research on the late Air Commodore M. Zafar Masud (recipient of the Hilal-e-Jurat and Sitara-i-Basalat awards), who was the Air Officer Commanding, East Pakistan (1970-1971), and considered to be the future Chief of Staff of the Pakistan Air Force. I have reviewed the published (545 page) Hamoodur Rehman Commission Report (HRCR) and found that the HRCR has many inadequacies. More specifically, below are some major items that were excluded from the report*:

Air Commodore Masud&#8217;s briefing to the late President of Pakistan, General Agha Mohammad Yahya Khan, at a conference held on March 16, 1971 in Dhaka (a copy of this briefing was also sent to then Commander-in-Chief of the Pakistani Air Force, Air Marshal Abdur Rahim Khan). This conference, attended by many Army Generals, took place only ten days prior to the military action in East Pakistan.

*Details of Air Commodore Masud&#8217;s resignation and his dispute with the President of Pakistan and Air Marshal Rahim Khan over the use of force (Commodore Masud sacrificed his bright military career to try and save the country from breaking up).*

A recorded interview of Air Commodore Masud by the Hamoodur Rehman Commission. The commission recorded interviews with members of the armed forces. However, Air Commodore Masud&#8217;s statement is not included in the HRCR interviews that were released. It is unknown whether Air Commodore Masud&#8217;s statement was recorded and omitted from the published report or if it was not recorded at all. If it was not recorded, then one must question why the Commission did not document such an important point of view (Air Commodore Masud was still alive when the HRCR was prepared; he died in 2003).

In addition to the omission of vital details regarding Air Commodore Masud, the HRCR also ignores crucial mistakes by Pakistan&#8217;s founding fathers and the Pakistani establishment in the years leading up to the division of the country in 1971. Key pieces of information overlooked by the report in this regard include:

The intolerance and suppression of opposition leaders (including Allama Mashriqi in West Pakistan and Maulana Bhashani in East Pakistan) from 1947 onwards. This type of treatment destroyed democracy from the very birth of Pakistan.

Allama Mashriqi&#8217;s warning regarding the break-up of Pakistan during his speech at a public meeting at Iqbal Park (Lahore) in 1956. Mashriqi stated, &#8220;Ye Muslims! Today from this platform I sound you a warning&#8230;In 1970 &#8212; I see it clearly &#8212; the nation will be stormed from all sides. The internal situation would have deteriorated gravely. A panic of widespread bloodshed will sweep the nation. The frenzy of racial and provincial prejudices will grip the whole country. Zindabad and murdabad will defean your ears. 

Plans will be initiated to dismember the country. Take it from me that in 1970, Pakistan will be plagued with a grave threat to its sovereignty. You might actually lose it if the reigns of the country were not in the hands of courageous and unrelenting leadership.&#8221; This forewarning was based on the mishandling of political affairs in the East wing.

Mashriqi&#8217;s various suggestions to the top leadership of Pakistan to keep the two wings of Pakistan united.

The Bengalis&#8217; resentment of Quaid-e-Azam Mohammad Ali Jinnah (Founder of Pakistan) as a result of disagreements over issues such as his failure to accept Bengali as a national language (see Jinnah&#8217;s speech in Dhaka on March 21, 1948).

The discrimination against East Pakistan that led to the total collapse of Jinnah&#8217;s Muslim League in the first provincial elections held in 1954 in East Pakistan.

*Given these gross oversights, it seems that the true intention of the HRCR was not to actually study the circumstances that led to the debacle of East Pakistan; rather, it was to shift blame away from the political leadership and toward other groups, including the Armed Forces*, India, and the Hindus of East Pakistan. In doing so, the report completely overlooked the most unfortunate actions of the Pakistani political leadership and the establishment from the time that the country was formed in 1947. It is clear that the HRC report, as it stands, is incomplete and cannot be viewed as an objective account of the reasons for the break-up of the country in 1971.

The recent general elections provide some hope for a new Pakistan. But a new Pakistan requires a fundamental rethinking of every major institution in the country and a correction of the nation&#8217;s flawed educational syllabus and concocted history books. 

This massive overhaul can take place only when the masses are provided with unbiased knowledge of the nation&#8217;s history, the mistakes of its founding fathers, the opposing views of Jinnah&#8217;s contemporaries (including Allama Mashriqi), and how the country&#8217;s democratic institutions were eroded from the very outset. Therefore, the new Government must reopen the inquiry and appoint a new commission to look into the break-up of the nation in 1971. It should empower this commission to write openly without reservation and examine all issues comprehensively (including the points mentioned in this article), from 1947 to 1971. This new report would enable the nation to turn the page on a deplorable and depressing period in its history and serve as an extremely important step towards avoiding another break-up of the nation.

*Note: The author invites information and photos from the public about Air Commodore Zafar Masud and his role as the Air Officer Commanding, East Pakistan (1970-1971). *

The author can be reached via Facebook or by sending a message to infomashriqi@yahoo.comThis email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. .

Nasim Yousaf, a scholar and historian, is committed to uncovering the true facts in South Asian history. Thus far, he has written ten books along with many articles. His works are a valuable contribution to the historiography of the Indian sub-continent and have provided new dimensions to India&#8217;s partition episode. *Currently, he is working on additional books and articles, including one on Air Commodore Zafar Masud*. 

Zafar Masud was the Base Commander at Sargodha during the 65 War and was awarded the HJ._


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## fatman17

Sunday, May 26, 2013 

*Defence ministry notified in PAF official&#8217;s death*


KARACHI: Sindh High Court (SHC) has directed Defence Ministry secretary and base commander Pakistan Air Force (PAF), to furnish their replies on a petition seeking post-mortem report of deceased squadron leader. A division bench headed by Chief Justice Mushir Alam along with respondents directed federal law officer to file comments. The petitioner, Mehrunisa, stated that she was informed by the officials at Minhas Air base that her son *Squadron Leader Sadiq Anwar Kazi*, died in his office of cardiac arrest. She had written a letter to PAF base commander for a probe into the incident and provision of post mortem report, however, neither did she receive a reply nor any report. The petitioner stated that she came to know from some sources, that her son&#8217;s death, was unnatural, therefore, she prayed to the court to direct respondents to provide them inquiry and post mortem reports. ppi



any details....by anyone?


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## Jango

fatman17 said:


> Sunday, May 26, 2013
> 
> *Defence ministry notified in PAF official&#8217;s death*
> 
> 
> KARACHI: Sindh High Court (SHC) has directed Defence Ministry secretary and base commander Pakistan Air Force (PAF), to furnish their replies on a petition seeking post-mortem report of deceased squadron leader. A division bench headed by Chief Justice Mushir Alam along with respondents directed federal law officer to file comments. The petitioner, Mehrunisa, stated that she was informed by the officials at Minhas Air base that her son *Squadron Leader Sadiq Anwar Kazi*, died in his office of cardiac arrest. She had written a letter to PAF base commander for a probe into the incident and provision of post mortem report, however, neither did she receive a reply nor any report. The petitioner stated that she came to know from some sources, that her son&#8217;s death, was unnatural, therefore, she prayed to the court to direct respondents to provide them inquiry and post mortem reports. ppi
> 
> 
> 
> any details....by anyone?



DOnt know about this but why is the case in Sindh High court? The death took place in Kamra...


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## fatman17

nuclearpak said:


> DOnt know about this but why is the case in Sindh High court? The death took place in Kamra...



maybe the mother lives in karachi


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## fatman17

Aerostats...

Radar-carrying aerostats similar to the TARS have been supplied to Middle East countries since the 1980s. TCOM was originally a subsidiary of Westinghouse, which sold TPS-63-equipped versions to Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. The UAE has acquired at least one 420,000-cu-ft aerostat for airspace surveillance.* Pakistan is reported to be acquiring six L-88 radar-carrying aerostats*. India bought Elta-radar equipped aerostats from Israel to monitor the Pakistan border, one of which was lost in &#8220;difficult weather&#8221; but the country ordered more as a response to the seaborne terrorist attack on Mumbai.

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## Jango

fatman17 said:


> Aerostats...
> 
> Radar-carrying aerostats similar to the TARS have been supplied to Middle East countries since the 1980s. TCOM was originally a subsidiary of Westinghouse, which sold TPS-63-equipped versions to Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. The UAE has acquired at least one 420,000-cu-ft aerostat for airspace surveillance.* Pakistan is reported to be acquiring six L-88 radar-carrying aerostats*. India bought Elta-radar equipped aerostats from Israel to monitor the Pakistan border, one of which was lost in &#8220;difficult weather&#8221; but the country ordered more as a response to the seaborne terrorist attack on Mumbai.



Sir jee old news, there is a video as well in which a L 88 features for a short while, although the video ia grainy. It was discussed here as well, Last Hope posted it.

And there are also Google earth images of L 88 near nuclear installations, http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/4835/k15z.jpg

This one is near Kahuta.

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## fatman17

nuclearpak said:


> Sir jee old news, there is a video as well in which a L 88 features for a short while, although the video ia grainy. It was discussed here as well, Last Hope posted it.
> 
> And there are also Google earth images of L 88 near nuclear installations, http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/4835/k15z.jpg



news to me....


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## mylovepakistan

So today is May 27....
Ummm....when PAF was put on 'Nuclear defence alert' exactly 15 years ago...


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## fatman17

mylovepakistan said:


> So today is May 27....
> Ummm....when PAF was put on 'Nuclear defence alert' exactly 15 years ago...



yes indeed. F-16 caps


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## mosu

is TALHAR airbase is operational ? which jets are stationed there?


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## fatman17

laghari said:


> is TALHAR airbase is operational ? which jets are stationed there?



location please for the ignorant on this forum

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## mosu

talhar base near badin


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## mosu

talhar air base near badin it is a forword operational base


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## Imran Khan

bird not looking from PAF sir


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## mosu

yesterday i was there no pictures are avilable on net



Imran Khan said:


> bird not looking from PAF sir



you can search on google talhar airbase


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## fatman17

laghari said:


> talhar air base near badin it is a forword operational base



its a FOC in times of war...always has been....dont need another base so close to masroor and shahrah-e-faisal...

as far as i remember badin was a radar facility


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## Imran Khan

laghari said:


> yesterday i was there no pictures are avilable on net
> 
> 
> 
> you can search on google talhar airbase



i did't say abut picture sir i said plane is not PAF plane . i trust you abut pic sir .


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## mosu

fatman17 said:


> its a FOC in times of war...always has been....dont need another base so close to masroor and shahrah-e-faisal...
> 
> as far as i remember badin was a radar facility



thanx for information sir

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## razgriz19

I know they are SSG, and are probably in Pakistan...

So what aircraft is that in the background?

I don't recognize it. It's definitely not from PAF fleet.


P.S

Never mind. I found it. Its a Hawker Siddeley 125 of Royal Airlines


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## Windjammer

F-7 kitted out for both air defence and ground attack missions.

Are those all angles "Limas" on the outer pylons. ??

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## fatman17

The tri-nation exercise among Saudi Arabia, Turkey and Pakistan was held at King Fahd Air Base, Taif, Kingdom of Saudi Arabia from 06 to 22 May, 2013, the press release added.

The PAF contingent comprising F-16s, Mirages Rose-II and 180 personnel participated in the exercise with members of other two countries.

The contingents of the three air forces undertook joint planning and execution of various combat missions.

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## Windjammer

*Students from Balochistan in a group photo at Nur Khan Base, Rawalpindi, after visiting several PAF educational institutions during May 2013.*

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## fatman17

Wednesday, June 05, 2013 


*PAF ready to meet challenges: air chief*


KARACHI: Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt has said that PAF is fully prepared to meet the challenges, faced by the nation. He was addressing to the PAF personnel during his visit Training Base of Southern Air Command to inspect training facilities, capabilities and functioning of training units. Air Chief said that the country has external and internal threats and PAF have to be ready and prepared to face all such threats boldly. It is only possible if they are mentally and physically fit. Every member of PAF team working anywhere at any time should play a responsible role. He visited work centres, technical labs and school/college of the base and lauded the training efforts and preparedness of PAF training units. He said that their predecessors have worked very hard to achieve the standard of training and preparedness and these standards have to be continuously evolved and improved. "We must have intellectually honest, self motivated and confident manpower and every member of PAF team working any where at any time should play a responsible role," he added. "As far as operational preparedness is concerned, we keep conducting inland and foreign exercises with friendly countries and all the countries have appreciated flying professionalism, discipline, conduct and preparedness of our personnel," he added. agencies


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## HRK

Imran Khan said:


> bird not looking from PAF sir



It may belong to any oil & Gas company......badin is known for oil & gas production


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## Imran Khan

razgriz19 said:


> I know they are SSG, and are probably in Pakistan...
> 
> So what aircraft is that in the background?
> 
> I don't recognize it. It's definitely not from PAF fleet.
> 
> 
> P.S
> 
> Never mind. I found it. Its a Hawker Siddeley 125 of Royal Airlines



these are two forces sir one line is SSG and other is from any arab country .abut jet looks like PA Cessna-560XL


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## razgriz19

Imran Khan said:


> bird not looking from PAF sir








belongs to Aircraft Sales and Services Limited (ASSL), a charter airline based in karachi.


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## Imran Khan

razgriz19 said:


> belongs to Aircraft Sales and Services Limited (ASSL), a charter airline based in karachi.



bhai that one is jet engine not turboprop engine bird


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## razgriz19

Imran Khan said:


> these are two forces sir one line is SSG and other is from any arab country .abut jet looks like PA Cessna-560XL



I see, the camo does look different.

And after doing a little bit of research, i found that the aircraft is Hawker Siddeley 125, and belongs a local charter company. Royal Airlines



Imran Khan said:


> bhai that one is jet engine not turboprop engine bird



bhai ji look again at the post #841
I thought you meant that aircraft

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## Windjammer

*
A PAF Mirage -3 beautifully captured against the setting sun, as it takes off from Masroor Airbase .*

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## FC-100

Full marks to cameraman


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## Liquidmetal

Windjammer said:


> *
> A PAF Mirage -3 beautifully captured against the setting sun, as it takes off from Masroor Airbase .*



Fook me that is stunning, great great pic and well done to the cameraman and to windjammer for finding and posting it. One of the best images I have seen of the mirage.

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## Bratva



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## araz

Liquidmetal said:


> Fook me that is stunning, great great pic and well done to the cameraman and to windjammer for finding and posting it. One of the best images I have seen of the mirage.



Was that expeltive necessary and what additional message did it convey in your post? Please avoid useing language unbecoming of a serious poster.
Araz


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## Bratva

CARE has developed ELINT Threat Perception and Identification System for All kinds of Emitters offering: 
Broadband Coverage
High accuracy and sensitivity
Automatic and manual operating modes
Classifier for Automatic Emitter Recognition
GUI based Electronic Order of Battle


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## fatman17

*Mysterious Pakistan Government Hawker 4000s*

June 12th, 2013 

TWO RAYTHEON (Hawker Beechcraft) Hawker 4000 executive jets appear to have recently been acquired by the Pakistan
Government, although it [...]

AFD


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## fatman17

*Mysterious Pakistan Government Hawker 4000s*

Posted on: June 12th, 2013


Mysterious Pakistan Government Hawker 4000, serial EYE77, seen recently on the ramp at Islamabad International Airport, Pakistan. It is suspected that the aircraft may be operated by Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence agency.

TWO RAYTHEON (Hawker Beechcraft) Hawker 4000 executive jets appear to have recently been acquired by the Pakistan Government, although it is unclear what exactly they are being used for and which Government department is operating them. It is suspected that they may be in use with Pakistan&#8217;s Directorate for Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), which is the country&#8217;s primary national security and intelligence agency.

A clue to their use may be in the &#8216;serial&#8217; applied to one of the Hawker 4000s, which wears only &#8216;EYE77&#8242;, more than likely indicating that it has a surveillance capability. The first aircraft acquired was formerly A6-SHH (c/n RC-21), which was first noted on September 2, 2012, test flying from Dubai marked as &#8216;HBC21&#8242;, which appears to be its Pakistani serial. The aircraft then arrived at Raytheon&#8217;s facility at Chester-Hawarden, in the UK, on October 1, but on October 12, 2012, it was sold to Elegant Aviation of Dubai. It was then placed in trust with Wells Fargo Bank Northwest in the US as N621HB, but was never registered as such before being instead allocated N23EA on January 3, 2013. It was still at Hawarden on January 3 as HBC21 and its current status is unclear.

The second aircraft is N984JC (c/n RC-32), which departed from Dubai on February 6, 2013, and was cancelled from the US register the following day on sale to Pakistan. This is believed to be the aircraft that has since been operating as EYE77, being first seen as such in Dubai on February 22. 

AFD-Dave Allport

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## Zarvan

fatman17 said:


> *Mysterious Pakistan Government Hawker 4000s*
> 
> Posted on: June 12th, 2013
> 
> 
> Mysterious Pakistan Government Hawker 4000, serial EYE77, seen recently on the ramp at Islamabad International Airport, Pakistan. It is suspected that the aircraft may be operated by Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence agency.
> 
> TWO RAYTHEON (Hawker Beechcraft) Hawker 4000 executive jets appear to have recently been acquired by the Pakistan Government, although it is unclear what exactly they are being used for and which Government department is operating them. It is suspected that they may be in use with Pakistan&#8217;s Directorate for Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), which is the country&#8217;s primary national security and intelligence agency.
> 
> A clue to their use may be in the &#8216;serial&#8217; applied to one of the Hawker 4000s, which wears only &#8216;EYE77&#8242;, more than likely indicating that it has a surveillance capability. The first aircraft acquired was formerly A6-SHH (c/n RC-21), which was first noted on September 2, 2012, test flying from Dubai marked as &#8216;HBC21&#8242;, which appears to be its Pakistani serial. The aircraft then arrived at Raytheon&#8217;s facility at Chester-Hawarden, in the UK, on October 1, but on October 12, 2012, it was sold to Elegant Aviation of Dubai. It was then placed in trust with Wells Fargo Bank Northwest in the US as N621HB, but was never registered as such before being instead allocated N23EA on January 3, 2013. It was still at Hawarden on January 3 as HBC21 and its current status is unclear.
> 
> The second aircraft is N984JC (c/n RC-32), which departed from Dubai on February 6, 2013, and was cancelled from the US register the following day on sale to Pakistan. This is believed to be the aircraft that has since been operating as EYE77, being first seen as such in Dubai on February 22.
> 
> AFD-Dave Allport



Why ISI would use these transport planes looks civilian transport planes to me


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## fatman17

Zarvan said:


> Why ISI would use these transport planes looks civilian transport planes to me



electronic snooping...!

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## Bratva

fatman17 said:


> *Mysterious Pakistan Government Hawker 4000s*
> 
> Posted on: June 12th, 2013
> 
> 
> Mysterious Pakistan Government Hawker 4000, serial EYE77, seen recently on the ramp at Islamabad International Airport, Pakistan. It is suspected that the aircraft may be operated by Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence agency.
> 
> TWO RAYTHEON (Hawker Beechcraft) Hawker 4000 executive jets appear to have recently been acquired by the Pakistan Government, although it is unclear what exactly they are being used for and which Government department is operating them. It is suspected that they may be in use with Pakistan&#8217;s Directorate for Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), which is the country&#8217;s primary national security and intelligence agency.
> 
> A clue to their use may be in the &#8216;serial&#8217; applied to one of the Hawker 4000s, which wears only &#8216;EYE77&#8242;, more than likely indicating that it has a surveillance capability. The first aircraft acquired was formerly A6-SHH (c/n RC-21), which was first noted on September 2, 2012, test flying from Dubai marked as &#8216;HBC21&#8242;, which appears to be its Pakistani serial. The aircraft then arrived at Raytheon&#8217;s facility at Chester-Hawarden, in the UK, on October 1, but on October 12, 2012, it was sold to Elegant Aviation of Dubai. It was then placed in trust with Wells Fargo Bank Northwest in the US as N621HB, but was never registered as such before being instead allocated N23EA on January 3, 2013. It was still at Hawarden on January 3 as HBC21 and its current status is unclear.
> 
> The second aircraft is N984JC (c/n RC-32), which departed from Dubai on February 6, 2013, and was cancelled from the US register the following day on sale to Pakistan. This is believed to be the aircraft that has since been operating as EYE77, being first seen as such in Dubai on February 22.
> 
> AFD-Dave Allport




http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...00-million-accomplish-special-assignment.html


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## UmarJustice

*Pakistan Air Chief gets honorary badge*






Air Chief Tahir Rafique Butt got an honorary pilot badge from his Thai counterpart, a press release issued here on Thursday said. During his visit to Bangkok, Butt called on Thai Air Chief Prajin Juntong. Both the officials remained together for some time and discussed matters of professional interest, the press release added. He also attended a briefing on the organisation, role and functioning of Royal Thai Air Force.

Air Chief gets honorary badge

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## Cyberian

DIT MCO Training At Kamra
_Thursday June 13, 2014_






Model 2505 with 2500 Test Point AC Hi-Pot CONTINUITY/ISOLATION TESTER of M/s DIT-Mco International, USA has been supplied to Pakistan Air Force.

This Insulation Tester/Cables-harness Tester is used in Aero Space Industry. M/s DIT-Mco International, USA & Mushko Electronics (Pvt) Ltd successfully installed it at one of Pakistan Air Force. Installation, Commissioning & training Conducted by Foreign Engineer Mr. Liu Heijan along with our Engineer Mr. Arshad Mehmood.

Mushko Electronics (Pvt.) Ltd.


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## hassan1



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## fatman17

*J-16 Flanker*


J-16 1601 prototype. It was first rumored in August 2010 that SAC is developing a 3.5 generation heavy multi-role fighter bomber for PLAAF based on J-11BS. The aircraft can be viewed as an upgraded version of Su-30MKK (see above) based on its mission and capability, which is comparable to American F-15E. First flight was rumored to have taken place in late 2011. Several prototypes were built. Like Su-30MKK, J-16 features a retractable IFR probe on the port side of the nose to increase its range. As the result the IRST/LR systm was offset from the center to the starboard side. The aircraft also has twin nose wheels due to increase of the TO weight. J-16 has tandem seats with a WSO sitting in the backseat. It features an enhanced fire-control radar inside a gray radom with additional AG modes. A new ECM system may have been installed as well. Like J-11BS, it is also powered by two WS-10 turbofans. Besides PL-8, PL-10 and PL-12 AAMs, it could also carry the same precision guided weapons being carried by JH-7A, such as KD-88 ASM and LS-500J LGB. Compared to JH-7A, J-16 is expected to have a more powerful radar (AESA from 607 Institute?), a greater weapon load (8t) and a longer range (4,000km). Since spring 2013 the 1603 prototype has been seen undergoing tests at CFTE, carrying a PL-10 AAM.

- Last Updated 6/15/12

i'm wondering if PAF has evaluated this option......it may be too early since it is in prototype stage...



hassan1 said:


>



old pics mate....i doubt if these helos are in service!

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## cirr

Twin-seat JF-17&#65288;model&#65311;poster&#65311;&#65289;on display at the latest Paris Air Show&#12290;


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## Gentelman

cirr said:


> Twin-seat JF-17(model?poster?)on display at the latest Paris Air Show&#12290;



is this new or question??
if news then any details please


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## Pinnacle

Gentelman said:


> is this new or question??
> if news then any details please&#8230;&#8230;



Details Here...


http://www.defence.pk/forums/jf-17-thunder/248822-jf-17-thunder-multirole-fighter-thread-5-a-32.html


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## Mugwop

Why is Paf only interested in light weight helicopters?


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## Gentelman

Jessica_L said:


> Why is Paf only interested in light weight helicopters?



PAF don't have helos i guess
Army Aviation have helos and Army never intended to built a considerable helos force and are just dependant on US for attack helos
maybe after gaining Super cobras as a replacement for AH/1Z Arky can take a look on chineese or Turks
Russians are never going to supply pak with helos in near future or PA will prefer them

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## ejaz007

*Regional environment demands an ever-vigilant PAF: air chief*


ISLAMABAD: Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt Thursday said the regional environment demanded an ever-vigilant role for Pakistan Air Force (PAF). 

Addressing the combat crew at the closing ceremony of PAF Triennial Command level Air Exercise Saffron Bandit at an operational air base, he said that presently, in the face of security challenges, PAF preparedness and response had to be precise and expeditious. 

&#8220;It is through the rigorous training imparted by exercises like Saffron Bandit that we look forward to maintain the cutting edge of the PAF&#8221;, he added. 

The Chief of the Air Staff, who was the chief guest on the occasion, said, &#8220;We are a peace-loving nation, but fully prepared to defend the integrity and solidarity of our motherland.&#8221;

Accentuating the nature of the aerial warfare, the Air Chief emphasised, &#8220;Combat training in the PAF is maintained at the highest pedestal of realism and responsiveness to meet the contemporary challenges. You must utilise the experiences gained in the best possible manner,&#8221; he added. 

He said, &#8220;While our quest to modernise PAF continues, we must remember that our generation will have to work even harder and offer greater sacrifices than the earlier ones&#8221;. 

The Air Chief further said, &#8220;The nature of aerial warfare continues to rise in complexity under a time compressed environment, and PAF being a professional outfit is totally focused on it. As the nation pins high hopes in PAF, we must never let it down.&#8221;

The eight-month long Exercise Saffron Bandit commenced in October 2012. PAF has been conducting this since 1994. 

This time, the environment was unique where modern capabilities of PAF were operating under one umbrella for the first time. Army Aviation and Army Air Defence were also deployed for undertaking the exercise. 

The prime objective of the exercise was to excel in the air combat capability with focus on air power employment in any future conflict.

The hallmark of the exercise was the participation of JF-17 Thunders in the concluding cycle of exercise Saffron Bandit for the first time. The combat crew from various operational squadrons comprising F-7PGs, Mirages, F-16s and JF-17 Thunders participated in the exercise. JF-17 Thunders operated in multiple configurations alongside other PAF platforms in various combat/support roles which encompassed all spheres of aerial warfare in near war like environments. agencies

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

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## nomi007

any one have full interview of airchief toIHS Jane's Defense


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## BATMAN

Pakistan May Speed AF Procurements Despite Economy



> ISLAMABAD  Despite its crippling economic situation, Pakistan may be forced to fund its Air Forces most important procurement programs on an emergency basis, or at least ensure sufficient finances for their regular progress.
> 
> Salma Malik, assistant professor in the Department of Defence & Strategic Studies, at Quaid-i-Azam University, Islamabad, said the linkage between economic progress, energy sufficiency and security as well as physical security has never before been so deeply felt in Pakistan.
> 
> *This is highlighted by the predicament facing the Air Force, which has not received any finances for its modernization efforts since 2007* under the Armed Forces Development Plan 2025 (AFDP2025).
> 
> Also, it has received only a portion of its allocated share of the general defense budget under the recently ousted Pakistan Peoples Party government.
> 
> In addition to the financial woes, Malik highlights the qualitative and quantitative edge of the India Air Force developed through upgrades or procurements.
> 
> Though not dismissing the myriad problems facing the Indians, she particularly highlighted the potential purchase of the French Rafale as the most concerning for Pakistan.
> 
> However, though she acknowledged that Air Force equipment is very expensive, the length of time between ordering a weapon such as a fighter aircraft and having it enter front-line service, dictates a sense of urgency.
> 
> Malik says this was most likely impressed upon Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif, by the head of the Air Force, Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt, during a June 13 meeting, and therefore some allocation might happen straightaway.
> 
> This emergency funding, Malik believes, could be injected into programs formulated in response to Indian developments, like the AFDP2025, to get them back on track and funded regularly.
> 
> If this does come about then the main focus, according to analyst Usman Shabbir of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank, will be the building of more JF-17 Thunder fighter aircraft, and inducting them into service fast to replace old Mirages and F-7 Fishbeds.
> 
> *He notes that pre-2007 programs have given the Air Force some breathing space.*
> 
> The air defense system has been upgraded with new radars and [command and control nodes, refuelers are in service, AEW&C are inducted, [beyond visual range] capability is acquired, Crotale SAM replacement is inducted.
> 
> However, in the medium to long term, there are still concerns as the planned number of JF-17s has been slashed from 275 or 250 down to 150, which will not replace the current obsolete Mirages and F-7s on a one-for-one basis.
> 
> The J-10B/FC-20 program will also need to start progressing, and there is still a need for long-range SAMs, plus more Il-76 transport aircraft.
> 
> The FC-20 was supposed to enter service in the middle of the decade to form a high tech spear tip for Pakistani air power, but there appears to have been no progress with procurement.
> 
> Economic revival will dictate most action.
> 
> Among other economic woes, Pakistan is gripped by a crippling circular debt problem where the government and independent power producers owe each other huge amounts of money, hampering electricity generation to kick-start the economy.
> 
> The new government pledged to end this situation within 60 days of coming to power.
> 
> Analyst and former Army officer Ikram Sehgal is optimistic this will happen now that the previous government has been ousted from power.
> 
> I have confidence that the economy will be turned around, he said.
> 
> The Pakistan economy is the most resilient in the world. If the [government of the PPP] could not bring it to its knees, then nothing can. Its a question of management.


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## Saleem

yes they are going to acquire more HS123 aircraft....


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## fatman17

However, in the medium to long term, there are still concerns as the planned number of JF-17s has been slashed from 275 or 250 down to 150, which will not replace the current obsolete Mirages and F-7s on a one-for-one basis

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...-force-news-discussions-59.html#ixzz2WvCUPbIB

this is a wrong assumption by the analyst - JFT capabilities exceed those of the F7s and older Mirages, therefore a one-to-one replacement is not envisioned by the PAF.


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## fatman17

Saturday, June 22, 2013 


*PAF ever ready against internal, external security threats: air chief*


ISLAMABAD: Chief of the Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt on Friday said that the PAF as an integral part of the security apparatus, and as the first line of physical defence, is expected to continue peacetime training while ensuring optimum operational preparedness against internal and external threats.

Addressing the student officers of Naval War Course at Pakistan Naval War College in Lahore, the air chief unfolded his vision on the development and modernisation of Pakistan Air Force to meet the ever-demanding challenges of the 21st century.

He said, &#8220;Foreseeing the challenges posed to Pakistan and particularly to the PAF, my vision is to prepare a force competent to face present and future challenges with full capacity to absorb future technologies. It should be a force with a human resource that is experienced and empowered to handle modern day warfare across the entire spectrum.&#8221;

The air chief said that the effectiveness of an air force was as good as the quality and performance of its personnel. &#8220;We have, therefore, always trained hard and would continue to do so for achieving optimum performance to maintain our edge through professional excellence,&#8221; he added. 

He said, &#8220;In spite of our extensive commitments, both in combat and non-combat operations, we continue to participate in a number of exercises inland and abroad, with an aim to gain confidence on our new systems and benefit from experience of modern forces and practising modern employment concepts.&#8221;

While emphasising the jointness as a key to success the air chief said that modern wars were fought jointly. &#8220;Our emphasis has remained on achieving synergy of effort among the three services.&#8221; He said that joint exercises such as &#8216;Azm-e-Nau&#8217;, &#8216;Al-Mizan&#8217;, &#8216;Sea Spark&#8217;, &#8216;Sea Spark Aman&#8217; and &#8216;Shamsheer-e-Behr&#8217;, and closer coordination with Pak Army, especially in &#8220;our current operations, are testimony to this cooperation&#8221;. Earlier on arrival, the air chief was received by Rear Admiral Kaleem Shaukat, the commandant of the Naval War College, Lahore. app


_lets hope so - recent events dont support his words...!_


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## Thorough Pro

Is PAF going to reduce it aircraft strength? Why are they comparing Thunders with Mirages or F7's, they should be looking to reduce the gap between adversary (IAF) numbers and quality that they will face in any conflict.




fatman17 said:


> However, in the medium to long term, there are still concerns as the planned number of JF-17s has been slashed from 275 or 250 down to 150, which will not replace the current obsolete Mirages and F-7s on a one-for-one basis
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...-force-news-discussions-59.html#ixzz2WvCUPbIB
> 
> this is a wrong assumption by the analyst - JFT capabilities exceed those of the F7s and older Mirages, therefore a one-to-one replacement is not envisioned by the PAF.


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## fatman17

Thorough Pro said:


> Is PAF going to reduce it aircraft strength? Why are they comparing Thunders with Mirages or F7's, they should be looking to reduce the gap between adversary (IAF) numbers and quality that they will face in any conflict.



in an ideal situation....PAF would like to maintain 20-22 Combat Squadron comprising....

Modern;
77.....F-16A/B/C/D.....multi-role
32.....J-10B/FC-20.....multi-role
150...JFT.................multi-role

Secondary;
40.....Mirage-ROSE....Strike
60.....F-7PG.............ADA

this leaves a 'gap' of a minimum of 37 to a maximum of 73 aircraft. to close this gap, the choice at this time is from buying further F-16s or J-10Bs or JFT's. these are the 'affordable' platfroms for the PAF.

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## araz

fatman17 said:


> in an ideal situation....PAF would like to maintain 20-22 Combat Squadron comprising....
> 
> Modern;
> 77.....F-16A/B/C/D.....multi-role
> 32.....J-10B/FC-20.....multi-role
> 150...JFT.................multi-role
> 
> Secondary;
> 40.....Mirage-ROSE....Strike
> 60.....F-7PG.............ADA
> 
> this leaves a 'gap' of a minimum of 37 to a maximum of 73 aircraft. to close this gap, the choice at this time is from buying further F-16s or J-10Bs or JFT's. these are the 'affordable' platfroms for the PAF.


All 3 avenues have their pros and cons. My own feeling is to go for 18 more C/Ds and try and get 36 bl40 f16 for mLU. I would ditch the J10 and go for 2squadrons of J31 in 200-25. This along with more JFTs might be the more economical way to do tbings. The real queation is whether Uncle Sam will tango with us or not.
Araz


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## Gentelman

Saleem said:


> yes they are going to acquire more HS123 aircraft....



what would they do with that junk??


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## muse

What an incredible bind - the best option is to go to the US for those damned F16, but with the US you get ZERO strategic autonomy and the constant threat of them either cutting off our supplies or slowing them down and with each day you fall more and more in to their hands - more slow death.

This is an excellent opportunity to rebuild, to decide that we will never again place our security in the hands of Western powers, and to make a genuine comprehensive strategic pact with China.

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## sancho

araz said:


> All 3 avenues have their pros and cons. My own feeling is to go for 18 more C/Ds and try and get 36 bl40 f16 for mLU. I would ditch the J10 and go for 2squadrons of J31 in 200-25. This along with more JFTs might be the more economical way to do tbings. The real queation is whether Uncle Sam will tango with us or not.
> Araz



Ditching J10 for more JFTs and J31 in the long run would be one thing, but why would you add more F16s, which are more expensive than the J10s and operationally less capeble for PAF too?


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## Manticore

sancho said:


> Ditching J10 for more JFTs and J31 in the long run would be one thing, but why would you add more F16s, which are more expensive than the J10s and operationally less capeble for PAF too?



already familiar platform


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## notorious_eagle

sancho said:


> Ditching J10 for more JFTs and J31 in the long run would be one thing, but why would you add more F16s, which are more expensive than the J10s and operationally less capeble for PAF too?



A familiar platform, cheap and most importantly armed with the latest US Weapons. You have pilots in the PAF who are masters of the F16's with thousands of hours clicked in.

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## sancho

ANTIBODY said:


> already familiar platform



True, but that's it! No operational advantage, technically far inferior and less numbers can be procured compared to the J10, so can you justify it simply on familiarity?



notorious_eagle said:


> A familiar platform, cheap and most importantly armed with the latest US Weapons. You have pilots in the PAF who are masters of the F16's with thousands of hours clicked in.



Please compare the Block 52 costs and capabilities (weapons, sensors...), compared to what a J10B offers and you will see that it's by far not a top notch fighter in current standards and not worth the costs instead of J10B, acutally not even compared to a possible JF 17 Block 3.


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## notorious_eagle

sancho said:


> True, but that's it! No operational advantage, technically far inferior and less numbers can be procured compared to the J10, so can you justify it simply on familiarity?
> 
> 
> 
> Please compare the Block 52 costs and capabilities (weapons, sensors...), compared to what a J10B offers and you will see that it's by far not a top notch fighter in current standards and not worth the costs instead of J10B, acutally not even compared to a possible JF 17 Block 3.



PAF will not be buying brand new Block 52's. They will try to acquire F16's from the EDA stocks and put them through MLU's. Far more cheaper, more bang for the buck and most importantly equipped with JHMCS cued up with AIM9's and AIM120's. J10B's are completely not off the table yet but one thing is for sure, PAF cannot afford the J10B's out of her own pocket. Either the Army will need to step in, or the Chinese might make us an offer we cannot refuse. I would bet on the latter, because after all its much more cheaper to subsidize Pakistan to keep India preoccupied instead of facing the Indians head on.

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## Safriz

Grande Strategy
  Home
View web version
The PAF Mirage ROSE Upgrade
06/22/2013
The Pakistani ROSE (Retrofit of Strike Element) Mirage
III/V remain a major asset until the JF-17 replaces them.
The Mirages have been a blessing for Pakistan, in a time
when it had very few options open. Pakistani Mirages
have served a wide range of roles, from nuclear delivery
to recon.
They have been the only fighters to support the PN with
an anti-surface capability with the Exocet. In exercises,
they have been the only fighters to defeat the vaunted
F-16s in the PAF. PAF Mirages have served a wide range
of other roles including air defence, with BVR R-Darter
missiles to deep strike with the Mirage Vs. Most
importantly, Mirages gave Pakistan the confidence to
pursue, and opportunity to build, an extensive foray into
combat aircraft manufacturing capability, that finally
culminated in the JF-17.
It is also widely believed that the ROSE Mirages will
continue to serve, along with the JF-17s post 2015. We
here look back in time to consider the Mirage and its
upgrade with the PAF.
The ROSE project was conceived in 1992 and begun on
April 1995. PAF's main concern was to replace the A-5s
that were deemed to retire in 1997. The aim was to raise
two squadrons that were capable of a surface attack
role, building a strike and precision strike capability.
PAF went on a shopping trip to thus buy and rebuild
secondhand Mirages and sources included Belgium,
Spain, France, Lebanon and Zaire. The operational
requirement was for fifty aircraft and forty aircraft were
allocated funds of $120 million. PAF personnel visited
Spain, France and Lebanon, among other countries and
inspected 96 Mirages.
SAGEM, a French company which specializes in avionics
and defense electronics, was to provide some of the
equipment for upgrading the Mirages with their inertial
navigation and system integration departments.
However, SAGEM was looking for making more and
proposed an additional forty Mirages for $150 million.
This opportunity came as a result of PAF's enthusiasm
for forty Mirage Vs and about forty Mirage IIIs of the
French Air Force, which were available for sale at quite a
reasonable price. The French Mirage V suited the PAF
requirement because of its longer range and greater
payload. PAF negotiated and the price came down
eventually to $124 million and finally to $118 million by
contract signing.
The package included thirty-four Mirage Vs and six
dual-seat Mirage IIIs, making a total of forty fully
overhauled aircraft. Out of the forty aircraft, twenty
Mirage Vs would be modernized to the ROSE-II
standards. These Mirage V ROSE-II were to receive an
identical upgrade to ROSE-I, with the difference being
that the Grifo-M radar is replaced by FLIR. The Grifo M,
somewhat of a copy of the US APG-68, provided the
Mirages with a significant improvement in look-down-
shoot down capability, and more controversially, the
ability to carry BVR missiles.
The details of the package included engines installed on
the aircraft would have a minimum life of four years and
300 hours and inclusion of ground support, alternate
mission equipment, and line replaceable units.
Additionally, kits were to be provided for RWR, CFD and
GPS.
The modifications were done in France since PAC Kamra
was during that time frame, already busy overhauling
the PAF's existing Mirages. Accepting any additional
work would have unnecessarily delayed the delivery of
the French Mirages to the PAF. However, SAGEM
encountered problems on purchase of spares, which
they needed for the timely and efficient running of their
upgrade program and the company managed to get the
first batch ready only by September 1998. A second
batch of eight was received in 1999 while the third batch
of eight came to Pakistan on 22 June 2000 and
deliveries were completed by end of 2000.
PAC Kamra, which had extensive experience in
overhauling Mirages, F-6s and F-7s, was tasked with the
work of overhauling and upgrading Mirages acquired
from Australia to the ROSE upgrade standard. Pakistan
had bought 50 Mirage IIIOs from Australia at a mere cost
of $36 million. Most of these aircraft had less than 4000
flying hours on them and they were in excellent
condition.
PAC recovered forty-five aircraft and this included seven
dual-seat models that were allotted to No. 5 Squadron.
Of the remaining, there were thirty-two with ROSE
configuration, one aircraft crashed, and another five
were considered beyond recovery.
The avionics package included Inertial Navigation
System, Heads Up Display, Airborne Video Tape
Recording System, and self-protection systems like
RWR, Chaff and Flares, essentially the same as the
SAGEM upgrades. When the United States released 360
AIM-9L missiles under the Brown Amendment, the
Mirages being upgraded and equipped with the Grifo-M
radar were also made capable of carrying the AIM-9L
missiles.
Additional equipment include, for instance, IRCCD
Forward Looking Infra Red navigation sensor for
reconnaissance applications - laser rangefinder - air
data sensors and computer - radar altimeter, and high
capacity data transfer unit . In the French upgrade, GEC
head-up display and HOTAS similar to Mirage-2000 is
used.
Pakistan also acquired South African MUPSOW, a multi-
purpose, surgical-strike weapon, designed to neutralize
enemy targets such as airfields, bunkers and command-
and-control centres at standoff ranges. Pinpoint
accuracy is achieved by using an advanced navigation
and terminal guidance technology. PAF also testing
South African Raptor I and II precision guided
munitions. PAF also uses the DART pod, which looks
identical to Rafael's LITENING pod and potentially is
acquired through South Africa. PAF is also believed to
use the R-Darter as its BVR missile for her Mirages.
Other Mirage 5F upgrades included an integrated
electronic warfare suite, on-board oxygen generation
system (OBOGS), and single point pressure refueling.
The final ROSE-III upgrade came for 14 more Mirage 5EF
by SAGEM and included new Radar Warning Receiver
(RWR);new Head-Up-Display (HUD); Forward Looking
Infra-Red (FLIR) and new mission computer (Dynamics).


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## Thorough Pro

Agreed, but those thousands of clicked in hours will not be of any use if planes can not fly due to spare parts shortage. Journey towards independence is very hard and very long, but the reward is even greater.



notorious_eagle said:


> A familiar platform, cheap and most importantly armed with the latest US Weapons. You have pilots in the PAF who are masters of the F16's with thousands of hours clicked in.


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## araz

Sancho
Familiarity and presence of infrastructure plus available trained manpower.


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## araz

sancho said:


> True, but that's it! No operational advantage, technically far inferior and less numbers can be procured compared to the J10, so can you justify it simply on familiarity?
> 
> 
> 
> Please compare the Block 52 costs and capabilities (weapons, sensors...), compared to what a J10B offers and you will see that it's by far not a top notch fighter in current standards and not worth the costs instead of J10B, acutally not even compared to a possible JF 17 Block 3.


As to the first paragraph a familiar and established platform which with MLU would be well equipped coming with funds from the US. We have eztablished repair and maintenance facilities and trained manpower to operate and repair the platform so induction would be quicker. That in its own rights is a huge advantage. There will be some security in numbers for a short period in case of sanctions. plus we would have enough stores. This factor alone would make me go down that route.
J10Bis still new with teething problems and the pithyengine issue is haunting it. The risk factor in going with AL31Feven if it gets sold to us would be problematic Then thwre would be latency as PAF familiarises itself with the platform and trains enough manpower and devices tschniques to suit the platform. This would be a headache as PAF is already grappling with JFT and training manpower with it.All in all a few very compelling reasons to go down the route I am suggesting.
Araz


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## Gentelman

Argentine officials confirm
joint-production talks over
China's FC-1 fighter

Richard D Fisher Jr, Paris - IHS Jane's Defence
Industry
23 June 2013

Officials from Argentine aerospace company
Fabrica Argentina de Aviones (FAdeA) told IHS
Jane's at the 2013 Paris Air Show they have
had multiple discussions with Chinese officials
over potential co-production of the Chengdu
Aircraft Corporation (CAC) FC-1/JF-17 multirole
combat aircraft.
Discussions are far from concluded, with
FAdeA officials saying "technology transfer"
issues remain a sticking point. Nonetheless, the
discussions are the first formal effort that
could lead to the co-production of a modern
Chinese fighter in Latin America. FAdeA
officials said the co-produced FC-1 could be
called the 'Pulqui-III', recalling FAdeA's Pulqui-
II, Latin America's first swept wing jet fighter,
which was designed by Germany's Kurt Tank
for the government of Juan Peron.

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## sancho

notorious_eagle said:


> PAF will not be buying brand new Block 52's. They will try to acquire F16's from the EDA stocks and put them through MLU's. Far more cheaper, more bang for the buck and most importantly equipped with JHMCS cued up with AIM9's and AIM120's.



How so? Add the procuement costs to the MLU upgrade cost and compare it to the around $50 millions the NEW J10Bs (with AESA, IRST, better EW sensors, IFR capability and the better weapon package) reportedly costs. No way that the F16s offer more bang for the bucks. And when even China struggles to provide you the loans for the J10s, don't you think it will be even more difficult to get it from western countries?



araz said:


> As to the first paragraph a familiar and established platform which with MLU would be well equipped coming with funds from the US. We have eztablished repair and maintenance facilities and trained manpower to operate and repair the platform so induction would be quicker. That in its own rights is a huge advantage. There will be some security in numbers for a short period in case of sanctions. plus we would have enough stores. This factor alone would make me go down that route.
> J10Bis still new with teething problems and the pithyengine issue is haunting it. The risk factor in going with AL31Feven if it gets sold to us would be problematic Then thwre would be latency as PAF familiarises itself with the platform and trains enough manpower and devices tschniques to suit the platform. This would be a headache as PAF is already grappling with JFT and training manpower with it.All in all a few very compelling reasons to go down the route I am suggesting.
> Araz



Let me give you an extreem example to show the difference. PAF is more familiar with the J7 than with the newer JFT, but that doesn't mean they should get more J7s right? The point is, there is a crucial technological difference between the J7 and JF17, just like between an F16 MLU and a J10B. In operational terms adding more F16s only because of familiarity reasons hardly makes any sense, when you can add JF 17 B2s or even the J10B instead. And the risk of going with AL31s, can't be higher than going with RD93s or?
Also what about the familiarity and commonality between J10 and JF17, be it the full weapon package, be it avionics, or comparable radar and EW techs? 

The F16 PAF can gets is simply way too limited and basically outdated with modern 4.5th gen fighters and capabilities available through China. The question should rather be, which one of them makes more sense for PAF J10B, or JF 17B3?


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## notorious_eagle

sancho said:


> How so? Add the procuement costs to the MLU upgrade cost and compare it to the around $50 millions the NEW J10Bs (with AESA, IRST, better EW sensors, IFR capability and the better weapon package) reportedly costs. No way that the F16s offer more bang for the bucks. And when even China struggles to provide you the loans for the J10s, don't you think it will be even more difficult to get it from western countries?



The total cost for MLU program with training and technical assistance was $1.3 billion, thats roughly $30 million per plane. PAF's infrastructure can support around 100 F16's while PAF will have to setup new infrastructure to support the J10's. A portion of the funding for the F16 MLU Program was provided by FMS, which is most likely going to be utilized again if the PAF decides to acquire EDA F16 articles. So as you can see, the US subsidized a portion of the MLU program which is most likely going to happen again and the airframe is acquired absolutely free of cost. PAF has not completely written off the J10B program, it is still in the pipeline but the hiccup appears to be the funding and power plant. The F16's will only be acquired to cover a stop gap, until a new platform is acquired and Non ROSE Mirages can be retired. 

But i can assure you, no decision is taken without conducting feasibility studies. They will be performed and the most logical course of action will be taken after these studies.


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## muse

I'm always "shocked" reading some who continue to support shackling Pakistani strategic autonomy by arguing on behalf of the US - One way or another they always return to F16 - it's the only option, the best option, the cheapest option - but hidden in these supplications is the reality that going with US aircraft effectively gives away Pakistani strategic autonomy, it makes the US not Pakistan the master of the PAF, it opens the path to the blackmail and recruitment of Pakistani officers by US intelligence services - in effect, their argument is that the very best the PAF can ever hope for is to be the messenger boy of the US.

F16 this and F16 that - no where does one see or read the reality of US sanctions, the FACT that those sanctions crippled Pakistani security for more than 20 years, it enabled so dramatic a mismatch between the PAF and IAF that it may take several decades for the PAF, even with honest leadership and abundance of funds, for the PAF to rebuild a security infrastructure to offer Pakistani policy makers and public, a modicum of confidence in the security architecture of Pakistan.

All of this insecurity we owe to the decision to trust the US - and now we are expected to trust them all over again, knowing that they are ultimately hostile to Pakistan, that they have a "strategic ally" in the region an that ally is the adversary of Pakistan.

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## Bratva

fatman17 said:


> *Mysterious Pakistan Government Hawker 4000s*
> 
> Posted on: June 12th, 2013
> 
> 
> Mysterious Pakistan Government Hawker 4000, serial EYE77, seen recently on the ramp at Islamabad International Airport, Pakistan. It is suspected that the aircraft may be operated by Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence agency.
> 
> TWO RAYTHEON (Hawker Beechcraft) Hawker 4000 executive jets appear to have recently been acquired by the Pakistan Government, although it is unclear what exactly they are being used for and which Government department is operating them. It is suspected that they may be in use with Pakistans Directorate for Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), which is the countrys primary national security and intelligence agency.
> 
> A clue to their use may be in the serial applied to one of the Hawker 4000s, which wears only EYE77&#8242;, more than likely indicating that it has a surveillance capability. The first aircraft acquired was formerly A6-SHH (c/n RC-21), which was first noted on September 2, 2012, test flying from Dubai marked as HBC21&#8242;, which appears to be its Pakistani serial. The aircraft then arrived at Raytheons facility at Chester-Hawarden, in the UK, on October 1, but on October 12, 2012, it was sold to Elegant Aviation of Dubai. It was then placed in trust with Wells Fargo Bank Northwest in the US as N621HB, but was never registered as such before being instead allocated N23EA on January 3, 2013. It was still at Hawarden on January 3 as HBC21 and its current status is unclear.
> 
> The second aircraft is N984JC (c/n RC-32), which departed from Dubai on February 6, 2013, and was cancelled from the US register the following day on sale to Pakistan. This is believed to be the aircraft that has since been operating as EYE77, being first seen as such in Dubai on February 22.
> 
> AFD-Dave Allport


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## Argus Panoptes

muse said:


> I'm always "shocked" reading some who continue to support shackling Pakistani strategic autonomy by arguing on behalf of the US - One way or another they always return to F16 - it's the only option, the best option, the cheapest option - but hidden in these supplications is the reality that going with US aircraft effectively gives away Pakistani strategic autonomy, it makes the US not Pakistan the master of the PAF, it opens the path to the blackmail and recruitment of Pakistani officers by US intelligence services - in effect, their argument is that the very best the PAF can ever hope for is to be the messenger boy of the US.
> 
> F16 this and F16 that - no where does one see or read the reality of US sanctions, the FACT that those sanctions crippled Pakistani security for more than 20 years, it enabled so dramatic a mismatch between the PAF and IAF that it may take several decades for the PAF, even with honest leadership and abundance of funds, for the PAF to rebuild a security infrastructure to offer Pakistani policy makers and public, a modicum of confidence in the security architecture of Pakistan.
> 
> All of this insecurity we owe to the decision to trust the US - and now we are expected to trust them all over again, knowing that they are ultimately hostile to Pakistan, that they have a "strategic ally" in the region an that ally is the adversary of Pakistan.



Might I submit that there is a much simpler explanation: The reality is that PAF has no other viable alternatives than to accept USA as its main supplier. The JF-17 is just a space-saver temporary tire to use.

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## muse

Argus Panoptes said:


> Might I submit that there is a much simpler explanation: The reality is that PAF has no other viable alternatives than to accept USA as its main supplier. The JF-17 is just a space-saver temporary tire to use.



See that would make sense but for the reason that the purpose of the Air Force is enable and ensure Pakistan's strategic autonomy - Yes, Pakistan is a Non-Nato member, though that is a "honor" devoid of substance - le me come back to that a little later.

Is the f16 a good capable ship, yes, do we have infrastructure to support it? yes, Do we have experience with the ship? yes - All good and fine -- and tomorrow when US domestic politics or lobbies associated with interests elsewhere influence US policy to the point where supplies and spares make operating the ship impossible, what then? Will the purpose for which there is a Pakistan Air Force not be folly and a farce?

Independence is what we seek, when it comes to the US, we are unfortunately in the Friends, not Masters mode - this tragic dysfunction has now assumed structural and societal dynamics, it is simply not able to sustain a security relationship that can have public support.

The NATO relationship fits the imperial model, Honor the Baloch and buy the Pashtun - it is devoid of security substance for the Pakistani public.

F16 the only option? The best advise I ever got was "A bad deal is worse than no deal at all" - over the years I have understood is better, a bad deal will defeat you, whereas no deal, simply offers you a opportunity to seek and craft a better deal -- 

What the panic about needing more F16, will the US really supply us F16 spares and support in case of hostilities with India? Is that why the US dictates where they may be positioned and even who may and may not enter the base?? And really Was it Indian aircraft and personnel who not only routinely enter and conduct operations on Pakistani territory? Or Kill Pakistani soldiers over a 7 hour period of time, knowing that they are attacking Pakistani positions?? Are we to believe US will supply weaponry that can be used against it?? 

The US is a great benefactor, more F16's is a deal we can and must say" No" to.


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## Argus Panoptes

muse said:


> See that would make sense but for the reason that *the purpose of the Air Force is enable and ensure Pakistan's strategic autonomy* - Yes, Pakistan is a Non-Nato member, though that is a "honor" devoid of substance - le me come back to that a little later.
> 
> .................................



Strategic autonomy? Surely you jest Sir. There is no autonomy, strategic or otherwise, even remotely possible, given our state of affairs.

The purpose of the PAF is to hold at bay a much larger Indian adversary for a few days at most in a mainly defensive posture in case of hostilities, that is all.


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## muse

Argus Panoptes said:


> Strategic autonomy? Surely you jest Sir. There is no autonomy, strategic or otherwise, even remotely possible, given our state of affairs. *The purpose of the PAF is to hold at bay a much larger Indian adversary for a few days at most in a mainly defensive posture in case of hostilities, that is all*.



India is the US's strategic Ally, you want to sell the line that the US will support us even for a few days against her own "Strategic ally"? and I'm jesting?


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## Argus Panoptes

muse said:


> India is the US's strategic Ally, you want to sell the line that the US will support us even for a few days against her own "Strategic ally"? and I'm jesting?



No Sir, given our nuclear deterrent, it is OUR policy that the PAF has a mainly defensive time-limited posture. We do not need anyone's support to do that. And if USA wants to bring us down, it will be economically, not by refusing to provide support to us against India.

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## muse

Argus Panoptes said:


> No Sir, given our nuclear deterrent, it is OUR policy that the PAF has a mainly defensive time-limited posture. We do not need anyone's support to do that. And if USA wants to bring us down, it will be economically, not by refusing to provide support to us against India.



Why then F16??


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## Argus Panoptes

muse said:


> Why then F16??



As I said before Sir, because it is the only proper choice available to us that serves our needs the best, as we have chosen to define them.


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## muse

Argus Panoptes said:


> As I said before Sir, because it is the only proper choice available to us that serves our needs the best, as we have chosen to define them.



First you say our policy is to go nuclear, then you say our only option is F16 -- I think you may have confused yourself -- Are the US then planning on us using their ships to go nuclear on their strategic ally? I think your position may need a rethink or at least the arguments to support it have to be better crafted


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## Argus Panoptes

muse said:


> First you say our policy is to go nuclear, then you say our only option is F16 -- I think you may have confused yourself -- Are the US then planning on us using their ships to go nuclear on their strategic ally? I think your position may need a rethink or at least the arguments to support it have to be better crafted



No Sir, I am not confused. First, our nuclear deterrence means that we do not need conventional weaponry that we would otherwise. And we have for many years now fitted our F-16s with nuclear launch capabilities that is free of any outside dependence, US approval be damned if the time comes. Further, we now have other standoff weapons that supplement the F-16s.


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## muse

Argus Panoptes said:


> No Sir, I am not confused. *First, our nuclear deterrence means that we do not need conventional weaponry that we would otherwise*. And we have for many years now fitted our F-16s with nuclear launch capabilities that is free of any outside dependence, US approval be damned if the time comes. Further, we now have other standoff weapons that supplement the F-16s.



Excellent - So why do we need more F16's again?? to use against whom?? Before you answer, refer to the highlighted portion of your response?


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## Argus Panoptes

muse said:


> Excellent - So why do we need more F16's again?? to use against whom?? Before you answer, refer to the highlighted portion of your response?



Please read the bold part again. The nuclear deterrent does *reduce but not eliminate* the need for conventional weapons, and F-16s form the backbone of the PAF as the only properly viable we have available to us. That is why, Sir, we need more of them to reduce the rapidly developing hole in our fleet as the rest of the fleet falls apart and the JF-17 program struggles to help fill that hole.


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## muse

Ok, but I would ask you to refer to the part i highlighted, those are your words, if you wish to qualify them, certainly I would be open to that.

F16 cannot be the ship to take as forward, even if we did end up with more, we would not have them in sufficient numbers to make any kind of impression - 

Our larger issue is of a security orientation this at once clear but also enables us to maintain a veneer to argue that a measure of ambiguity in that security orientation. I am persuaded that the US cannot be a security partner for Pakistan, quite the opposite it is and will like be, hostile to Pakistan. Seeking to attenuate this hostility by inducting more F16 in the Air Force, open PAF personnel to blackmail and recruitment by hostile security services, denies Pakistan confidence in her security and robs Pakistan of the opportunity to build strategic autonomy. And finally, the public strongly rejects such a relationship with the US. For these reasons, we can and must say "No" to more F16


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## Argus Panoptes

muse said:


> Ok, but I would ask you to refer to the part i highlighted, those are your words, if you wish to qualify them, certainly I would be open to that.
> 
> F16 cannot be the ship to take as forward, even if we did end up with more, we would not have them in sufficient numbers to make any kind of impression -
> 
> Our larger issue is of a security orientation this at once clear but also enables us to maintain a veneer to argue that a measure of ambiguity in that security orientation. I am persuaded that the US cannot be a security partner for Pakistan, quite the opposite it is and will like be, hostile to Pakistan. Seeking to attenuate this hostility by inducting more F16 in the Air Force, open PAF personnel to blackmail and recruitment by hostile security services, denies Pakistan confidence in her security and robs Pakistan of the opportunity to build strategic autonomy. And finally, the public strongly rejects such a relationship with the US. For these reasons, we can and must say "No" to more F16



I would agree with you to the extent that our whole security doctrine does need an overhaul, top to bottom, but until that happens, we will not be free of US hardware such as F16s, or indeed its influence, which is far more pervasive than just the aircraft.

Please do note that there are many other ways to gain access to PAF personnel, that Pakistan's confidence in its security depends on many other more important factors, and that the path to building strategic autonomy is at least decades away, given that we have not even laid down the basics for achieving it.


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## Chak Bamu

As long as we maintain a mainly defensive posture and are not seen as aggressors, we need not fear sanctions. We are useful. Why would USA antagonize us? US diplomats have been at pain to point out that US-Pakistan vs Us-India is not a zero sum affair.

As long as we develop our institutions and improve transparency and implement a decision making process that is seen as sane and based on our national interests and not paranoia, we need not fear much. We have no option - we have to overhaul our security perspective - slowly but surely.

As long as we do this, we may get more F-16s, but not at the cost of curtailing JF-17 program. The strategic dimension of JF-17 can not be ignored. A mixed package of JF-17 and F-16s would be a formidable formation esp. with AWACS support.

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## Yzd Khalifa

Hello to my fellow Pakistanis  

Does anyone of you know how many MiG-29s does PAF have?

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## fatman17

Yzd Khalifa said:


> Hello to my fellow Pakistanis
> 
> Does anyone of you know how many MiG-29s does PAF have?



.....none, nil, nada,zilch....nyet...

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## Yzd Khalifa

fatman17 said:


> .....none, nil, nada,zilch....nyet...



I thought so. Just wanted to make sure

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## muse

Chak Bamu said:


> *As long as we maintain a mainly defensive posture and are not seen as aggressors, we need not fear sanctions. We are useful.* Why would USA antagonize us? US diplomats have been at pain to point out that US-Pakistan vs Us-India is not a zero sum affair.
> 
> As long as we develop our institutions and improve transparency and implement a decision making process that is seen as sane and based on our national interests and not paranoia, we need not fear much. We have no option - we have to overhaul our security perspective - slowly but surely.
> 
> As long as we do this, we may get more F-16s, but not at the cost of curtailing JF-17 program. The strategic dimension of JF-17 can not be ignored. A mixed package of JF-17 and F-16s would be a formidable formation esp. with AWACS support.



Please reconsider - If indeed we need not worry about the US and if indeed we need not worry about the Indian, WHY then do we need more F16?

We seek to build our Air Force so that it can provide a measure of security to the US??????? 

It seems to me that some of us prefer more pats on the back and shaabash then building our independence from users such as the US

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## Armstrong

fatman17 said:


> .....none, nil, nada,zilch....nyet...



Waisee have our boys ever flown the Mig 29s ? Just to get a feel of what we could, potentially, be against at ?


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## fatman17

old article but good info...



*Pakistan Air Force refocuses on militant threat;*


Author:Farhan Bokhari JDW Correspondent, Sargodha

Last posted:2009-09-10


Key Points
&#8226;	Pakistan Air Force training is increasingly focused on tackling militant threats, rather than on countering India.

&#8226;	The PAF is keen to demonstrate that it is playing a leading role in the Pakistani military's war against the Taliban.


The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) used F-16, F-7 and Mirage fighter aircraft to conduct bombing missions against simulated militant targets in the country's remote Thal desert on 5 September.

On the same day, General Ashfaq Pervez Kiyani, the chief of army staff, was invited by Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman, chief of the air staff, to receive first-hand briefings on changes within the PAF, which is keen to demonstrate its transition from a force focused on countering India to a central player in the country's campaign against Taliban militants in its northern regions. 

Gen Kiyani and ACM Qamar also visited the PAF's Combat Commander's School, Pakistan's 'Top Gun' pilot training centre, at Mushaf Air Base in Sargodha, in an event also attended by this correspondent.

The fighters' display in the Thal desert was the high point of the PAF's 'Saffron Bandit' exercise: a regular event once focused on the PAF's operational preparedness against India but now repurposed to prepare for action against domestic militants. 

According to senior PAF officers, 70 to 80 per cent of the activities in 'Saffron Bandit' have been geared towards anti-militant operations in an indication of how much the PAF has shifted focus. 

The event at Sargodha was also used by the PAF to showcase its Air Combat Maneuvering Instrumentation (ACMI) system - an indigenously built system developed over the past five to six years, which enables the PAF to record missions or view them in real time from a range of angles.

"In the past, we used to give feedback in debriefing after flight," said Air Commodore Tariq Yazdani, the PAF's chief spokesman. "This ACMI is way more advanced than what we had before. It is a very useful training aid." 

The PAF also opened up its general mission control Centre (GMCC) at Sargodha, where it has successfully synchronized its high-level and low-level radars to make them viewable on a single screen. PAF officers said the GMCC had also been indigenously developed, and at a fraction of the cost of similar, foreign equipment. 


JDW


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## krash

Armstrong said:


> Waisee have our boys ever flown the Mig 29s ? Just to get a feel of what we could, potentially, be against at ?



Well, we did train the Iraqis for quite a while before Desert Storm and they had a few Mig-29s. This is the most probable scenario I can think of.

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## Chak Bamu

muse said:


> Please reconsider - If indeed we need not worry about the US and if indeed we need not worry about the Indian, WHY then do we need more F16?
> 
> We seek to build our Air Force so that it can provide a measure of security to the US???????
> 
> It seems to me that some of us prefer more pats on the back and shaabash then building our independence from users such as the US



OK, I have reconsidered but I would say that same thing again. You have misconstrued my reference about being useful. USA can not ignore us nor can they antagonize us by openly siding with India.

I would not mind more F-16s provided it is an option that A) Does not threaten JF-17 program. B) Provides best bang for the buck. C) Does not induce complacency.

Our problem is with countering India and making sure that they know the cost of an adventure. US knows this and as long as we are not aggressors, we need not worry overmuch about what USA would or would not do with India. US-India relations have dimensions other than the Pakistan vs India rivalry. If anything US influence over India can be handy for us at times, particularly now when we need to rebuild our economy and must pursue peace with our neighbors to provide confidence to would-be investors.

The primary threats to Pakistan right now are internal. The India vs Pakistan games ought not distract us from this fact.


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## muse

Chak Bamu said:


> OK, I have reconsidered but I would say that same thing again. You have misconstrued my reference about being useful. USA can not ignore us nor can they antagonize us by openly siding with India.
> 
> I would not mind more F-16s provided it is an option that A) Does not threaten JF-17 program. B) Provides best bang for the buck. C) Does not induce complacency.



In US Air Force they say "Aim High" -- Do you think there is merit in this??, If yes, do you think that's what going for more F16 would be?

By the way, have you noticed that no supporter of the F16 has suggested any kind of provision that have give us greater confidence that even if sanctions regime is employed again, that would not, practically, mean that the F16 are grounded, I find that interesting - You see the argument that we have had the ships for 40 years and know how to operate it, I do wonder if in the 30 years we have made this ship sanction proof by learning more about making parts that need to be replace very often

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## Chak Bamu

Last bout of sanctions happened when USA was the sole super power. It wanted to dissuade Pakistan from our nuclear pursuit.

1. We are seeing an emergence of a multi-polar world and we have our place in it. We can not be ignored.
2. USA after having downgraded its ties with Pakistan regretted some of its decisions.
3. PAF was able to keep our F-16s flying.
4. With the wind-up of Afghanistan venture, there would be fewer friction points between USA & Pakistan.
5. Today, F-16 does not represent what it did back then.
6. What issues could cause another round of sanctions? I can not say.
7. Though it might be too much to expect right now, but we do have better industrial set up today.


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## Thorough Pro

Any plan that depends on external factors is a bad plan. Security plan should be as you are all alone against all odds.



Chak Bamu said:


> OK, I have reconsidered but I would say that same thing again. You have misconstrued my reference about being useful. USA can not ignore us nor can they antagonize us by openly siding with India.


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## Thorough Pro

One can close his eyes and dream whatever he wants but that does not change the reality a little bit.




Chak Bamu said:


> Last bout of sanctions happened when USA was the sole super power. It wanted to dissuade Pakistan from our nuclear pursuit.



As you mention below, its a multi-polar world now, so what poles have helped Iran from US sanctions for the same reason? or what did Russia did to help Syria despite wests direct involvement in supporting terrorist activities against Syrian state?




Chak Bamu said:


> 1. We are seeing an emergence of a multi-polar world and we have our place in it. We can not be ignored.



Self delusions! Despite being key alley how many times US withheld coalition support payments? and what would you call naked terrorism and violation of our sovereignty through drone strikes?




Chak Bamu said:


> 2. USA after having downgraded its ties with Pakistan regretted some of its decisions.



Oh yeah! 




Chak Bamu said:


> 3. PAF was able to keep our F-16s flying.



Keep them flying in peace time with flying hours cut down to maybe 50% or less, would that help in case of a full blown war with india?




Chak Bamu said:


> 4. With the wind-up of Afghanistan venture, there would be fewer friction points between USA & Pakistan.



When the imposed sanctions for the first time, there was hardly any bone on contention between Pakistan and USA.




Chak Bamu said:


> 5. Today, F-16 does not represent what it did back then.



F-16, Mirage III/V, F7, JF-17 (still not fully operationalized to be effective in a major war), which one represents what for PAF? you chose.




Chak Bamu said:


> 6. What issues could cause another round of sanctions? I can not say.



Surrender your Nukes! Hand over Dr. AQ Khan or Dr. Samar Mubarak, Why did you hide UBL in Abbotabad, excuses are million a dime if the intention is there. What excuse did they have to destroy Iraq or Afghanistan or Libya or Syria or sanction Iran? Get down from your high horse, be a paranoid realist if you want to survive.




Chak Bamu said:


> 7. Though it might be too much to expect right now, but we do have better industrial set up today.



For what? how about economy or law and order or terrorism?


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## Thorough Pro

How delusional one can be? Are you talking about the same support it provided during 1971 against india, a strong USSR alley? 
Do you even know US interest in Baluchistan and its support to BLA? both financial, political and military. Do you know Baitullah Mehsud who formed TTP was released from Guantanamo bay prison specifically for the purpose.

It never hurts to be a delusional optimist, you can always cry later on.





Argus Panoptes said:


> No Sir, given our nuclear deterrent, it is OUR policy that the PAF has a mainly defensive time-limited posture. We do not need anyone's support to do that. And if USA wants to bring us down, it will be economically, not by refusing to provide support to us against India.


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## Chak Bamu

Thorough Pro said:


> Any plan that depends on external factors is a bad plan. Security plan should be as you are all alone against all odds.



That defines paranoia. Feel free to indulge. This pit has no bottom.


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## Chak Bamu

Thorough Pro said:


> As you mention below, its a multi-polar world now, so what poles have helped Iran from US sanctions for the same reason? or what did Russia did to help Syria despite wests direct involvement in supporting terrorist activities against Syrian state?



We are not threatening Israel. We already have nuclear technology after having braved sanctions. China is our ally, Russia is not averse, USA can no longer afford to romp around. We have weathered the worse, future looks better. Even India has to improve relations with us in order to improve growth. Our enemies in Afghanistan have developed high level contacts with us. 



Thorough Pro said:


> Self delusions! Despite being key alley how many times US withheld coalition support payments? and what would you call naked terrorism and violation of our sovereignty through drone strikes?



You overlook our governments' abetting this abuse of sovereignty. 





Thorough Pro said:


> Keep them flying in peace time with flying hours cut down to maybe 50% or less, would that help in case of a full blown war with india?



Better be an optimist than be paranoid. I do not foresee a conflict in the near or mid-term future. That is the dividend of democracy. Good for us and good for them. A conflict exists only in imagination of those who are over-fond of egotistical verbal combat with loonies from across the border.




Thorough Pro said:


> When the imposed sanctions for the first time, there was hardly any bone on contention between Pakistan and USA.



Are you sure? Were we not running our nuclear program widely seen as leading to an 'Islamic' bomb? You forget Iran my friend. 




Thorough Pro said:


> F-16, Mirage III/V, F7, JF-17 (still not fully operationalized to be effective in a major war), which one represents what for PAF? you chose.



Am not an expert so would not choose. But I can place things in perspective better than paranoid people.






Thorough Pro said:


> Surrender your Nukes! Hand over Dr. AQ Khan or Dr. Samar Mubarak, Why did you hide UBL in Abbotabad, excuses are million a dime if the intention is there. What excuse did they have to destroy Iraq or Afghanistan or Libya or Syria or sanction Iran? Get down from your high horse, be a paranoid realist if you want to survive.



More than half the world's problems are created by paranoid survivalists. Nukes, Dr. A.Q. Khan, OBL are all old news. The world has moved on. Excuses are indeed cheap - on both sides. We buttress our position with strategy. Good for us.




Thorough Pro said:


> For what? how about economy or law and order or terrorism?



What economy and what law and order? Its about resources and strategy my friend. If we were to spend all our resources on Military (hardware, manpower, conflicts), we would have no economy and precious little in way of law and order.

If a couple of squadrons of F-16s improve our DEFENSIVE capabilities, no one in this world would have a problem, including USA. If these same F-16s provide best value for our precious resources spent on them, then I am all for them. Provided of course that our indigenous programs do not suffer.


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## Thorough Pro

Paranoia is far better than delusions when it comes to security, at least paranoid live to tell the story of "late delusional" 




Chak Bamu said:


> That defines paranoia. Feel free to indulge. This pit has no bottom.

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## Thorough Pro

I am not sure what feeds your optimism, but for my paranoia, I have not forgotten fall of east Pakistan, foreign involvement in now dead, Sidhu Desh movement, Baluchistan, TTP, terrorist attacks on our military installations, etc. etc.

Regarding your response, I don't find any substance in it worthy of further discussion.




Chak Bamu said:


> We are not threatening Israel. We already have nuclear technology after having braved sanctions. China is our ally, Russia is not averse, USA can no longer afford to romp around. We have weathered the worse, future looks better. Even India has to improve relations with us in order to improve growth. Our enemies in Afghanistan have developed high level contacts with us.
> 
> 
> 
> You overlook our governments' abetting this abuse of sovereignty.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Better be an optimist than be paranoid. I do not foresee a conflict in the near or mid-term future. That is the dividend of democracy. Good for us and good for them. A conflict exists only in imagination of those who are over-fond of egotistical verbal combat with loonies from across the border.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you sure? Were we not running our nuclear program widely seen as leading to an 'Islamic' bomb? You forget Iran my friend.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Am not an expert so would not choose. But I can place things in perspective better than paranoid people.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More than half the world's problems are created by paranoid survivalists. Nukes, Dr. A.Q. Khan, OBL are all old news. The world has moved on. Excuses are indeed cheap - on both sides. We buttress our position with strategy. Good for us.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What economy and what law and order? Its about resources and strategy my friend. If we were to spend all our resources on Military (hardware, manpower, conflicts), we would have no economy and precious little in way of law and order.
> 
> If a couple of squadrons of F-16s improve our DEFENSIVE capabilities, no one in this world would have a problem, including USA. If these same F-16s provide best value for our precious resources spent on them, then I am all for them. Provided of course that our indigenous programs do not suffer.

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## Chak Bamu

Thorough Pro said:


> I am not sure what feeds your optimism, but for my paranoia, I have not forgotten fall of east Pakistan, foreign involvement in now dead, Sidhu Desh movement, Baluchistan, TTP, terrorist attacks on our military installations, etc. etc.
> 
> Regarding your response, I don't find any substance in it worthy of further discussion.



We have different POVs and I would be first to acknowledge that this dialectic tension is good. Your paranoia is good for my optimistic delusions and vice versa. Thanks for a civil exchange.

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## Bossman

Thorough Pro said:


> I am not sure what feeds your optimism, but for my paranoia, I have not forgotten fall of east Pakistan, foreign involvement in now dead, Sidhu Desh movement, Baluchistan, TTP, terrorist attacks on our military installations, etc. etc.
> 
> Regarding your response, I don't find any substance in it worthy of further discussion.



Your concerns are valid but I can assure you that any of the issue you have mentioned including Baluchistan and and TTP, although grave, are not existentialist threats to the state of Pakistan. The Sindu Desh movement is of little consequence. I can go into details and support what I am saying. Our biggest challenge right now is the economy, education and social injustices.

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## air marshal

*Five Air Commodore promoted as Air Vice Marshal*
June 2, 2013

ISLAMABAD: Air Commodore Pirzada Kamaluddin A Siddiqui, Air Commodore Mujahid Anwar Khan, Air Commodore Arshad Malik, Air Commodore Azhar Hasan Rizvi and Air Commodore Khawar Hussain have been promoted as Air Vice Marshal.

According to PAF press release Tuesday, Air Vice Marshal Pirzada Kamaluddin A Siddiqui, who joined the Pakistan Air Force in June, 1983, has commanded a fighter squadron and a fighter wing. He has also been the Commandant College of Flying Training at PAF Academy, Risalpur. He is a recipient of Tamgha-i-Imtiaz (Military).

Air Vice Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan was commissioned in the PAF in December, 1983. During his career, he has commanded a fighter squadron, a fighter wing and two operational air bases. He is a recipient of Sitara-i-Imtiaz (Military).

Air Vice Marshal Arshad Malik, who was commissioned in 1983, has commanded a fighter squadron, a fighter wing and an operational air base. He is also a recipient of Sitara-i-Imtiaz (Military).

Air Vice Marshal Azhar Hasan Rizvi was commissioned in Pakistan Air Force in December, 1983. During his career, he has commanded a fighter squadron, a fighter wing and an operational air base. He is a recipient of Sitara-i-Imtiaz (Military).

Air Vice Marshal Khawar Hussain was commissioned in Pakistan Air Force in March, 1984. During his career, he has commanded a fighter squadron, a fighter wing and an operational air base. He is a recipient of Sitara-i-Imtiaz (Military).

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## fatman17

*End of an Era;*

The J-7/F-7 production line was closed in May 2013 after the 30 years of production.



air marshal said:


> *Five Air Commodore promoted as Air Vice Marshal*
> June 2, 2013
> 
> ISLAMABAD: Air Commodore Pirzada Kamaluddin A Siddiqui, Air Commodore Mujahid Anwar Khan, Air Commodore Arshad Malik, Air Commodore Azhar Hasan Rizvi and Air Commodore Khawar Hussain have been promoted as Air Vice Marshal.
> 
> According to PAF press release Tuesday, Air Vice Marshal Pirzada Kamaluddin A Siddiqui, who joined the Pakistan Air Force in June, 1983, has commanded a fighter squadron and a fighter wing. He has also been the Commandant College of Flying Training at PAF Academy, Risalpur. He is a recipient of Tamgha-i-Imtiaz (Military).
> 
> Air Vice Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan was commissioned in the PAF in December, 1983. During his career, he has commanded a fighter squadron, a fighter wing and two operational air bases. He is a recipient of Sitara-i-Imtiaz (Military).
> 
> Air Vice Marshal Arshad Malik, who was commissioned in 1983, has commanded a fighter squadron, a fighter wing and an operational air base. He is also a recipient of Sitara-i-Imtiaz (Military).
> 
> Air Vice Marshal Azhar Hasan Rizvi was commissioned in Pakistan Air Force in December, 1983. During his career, he has commanded a fighter squadron, a fighter wing and an operational air base. He is a recipient of Sitara-i-Imtiaz (Military).
> 
> Air Vice Marshal Khawar Hussain was commissioned in Pakistan Air Force in March, 1984. During his career, he has commanded a fighter squadron, a fighter wing and an operational air base. He is a recipient of Sitara-i-Imtiaz (Military).



future ACM's.....who knows!


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## Imran Khan

fatman17 said:


> *End of an Era;*
> 
> The J-7/F-7 production line was closed in May 2013 after the 30 years of production.
> 
> 
> 
> future ACM's.....who knows!



thank god this bird leave the world .  i hate to look it in service now a days . wish ASAP jf-17 took its place

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## fatman17

Imran Khan said:


> thank god this bird leave the world .  i hate to look it in service now a days . wish ASAP jf-17 took its place



nice looking bird though!


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## Imran Khan

fatman17 said:


> nice looking bird though!



enough boss i hate nose less fighters now its not 70s era


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## Dazzler

Imran Khan said:


> enough boss i hate nose less fighters now its not 70s era



you are a racist!


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## hassan1



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## DANGER-ZONE

>



I really wanna know that where the attackers went after being phased out ? did we return them to Brits ?


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## air marshal

*Air Marshal Athar Bukhari appointed Vice Chief of Air Staff*
July 4, 2013

ISLAMABAD: Air Marshal Syed Athar Hussain Bukhari has been appointed Vice Chief of The Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force (PAF), according to a notification issued by the government here on Thursday.

Air Marshal Syed Athar Hussain Bukhari was commissioned in Pakistan Air Force in 1978 in GD (P) Branch. He is an accomplished Fighter Pilot, a qualified Flying Instructor and a graduate of Combat Commanders&#8217; School. His career has encompassed a wide range of operational, training and command assignments. He has commanded a Fighter Squadron, a Fighter Wing and an Operational PAF Base.

He holds Master&#8217;s Degree in National Security Strategy from National Defence University Washington (USA) and a Master&#8217;s Degree in War Studies from National Defence University, Islamabad. He has also qualified Air Command and Staff Course from Iran.

During his long and illustrious career in PAF, he remained on various important command and staff appointments which include Director General Joint Operations (GHQ), Deputy Chief of the Air Staff (Training) and Deputy Chief of the Air Staff (Personnel) at Air Headquarters, Islamabad. 

He is recipient of Hilal-i-Imtiaz (Military), and Sitara-i-Basalat.

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## fatman17

legend has it that if you could master the Harvard trainer, you generally ended uo as a accomplished pilot.



DANGER-ZONE said:


> I really wanna know that where the attackers went after being phased out ? did we return them to Brits ?



the dust-bin of history is where they went


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## hassan1




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## fatman17

MILITARY DISPLAY TEAMS OF THE WORLD.

AUSTRALIA - Roulettes.
ARGENTINA - Cruz Del Sur.
BELGIUM - Red Devils.
BRAZIL - Esquadrilla da Fumaga.
BRUNEI - Alap-Alap Formation.
CANADA - The Snowbirds.
CHILE - Los Halcones.
CHINA - BaYi.
CHINA - Red Falcon.
CHINA - Tianzhiyi.
CROATIA - Krila Oluja.
DENMARK - Baby Blue.
EGYPT - Silver Stars.
FINLAND - Midnight Hawks.
FRANCE - Cartouche Dore.
FRANCE - Patrouille de France.
INDIA - Sarang.
INDONESIA - Jupiter Aerobatic Team.
ISRAEL - Israel Aerobatic Team.
ITALY - Frecce Tricolori.
JORDAN - Royal Jordanian Falcons.
JAPAN - Blue Impulse.
MALAYSIA - Smokey Bandits.
MALAYSIA - Krisakti.
MOROCCO - Marche Verte.
NEW ZEALAND - Red Checkers.
POLAND - Bialo-Czerwone Iskry.
POLAND - Team Orlik.
PAKISTAN - Sherdils.
PORTUGAL - Rotores de Portugal.
RUSSIA - Russkiye Vityazi.
RUSSIA - Berkuty.
RUSSIA - Strizhi.
SINGAPORE - Black Knights.
SAUDI ARABIA - Saudi Hawks.
SOUTH AFRICA - Silver Falcons.
SOUTH KOREA - Black Eagles.
SPAIN - Patrulla Aguila.
SPAIN - Patrulla ASPA.
SWITZERLAND - PC-7 Team.
SWITZERLAND - Patrouille Suisse.
TAIWAN - Thunder Tigers.
TURKEY - Turk Yildizlari.
THAILAND - Blue Phoenix.
UAE - Al Fursan.
USA - Thunderbirds.
USA - Blue Angels.

AFM.

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## air marshal

*Two Air Vice Marshal promoted to rank of Air Marshal*
July 5, 2013

ISLAMABAD: Air Vice Marshal Muhmmad Jamshed Khan and Air Vice Marshal Sohail Aman have been promoted to the rank of Air Marshal on Friday.

According to PAF, Air Marshal Muhammad Jamshed Khan was commissioned in Pakistan Air Force on April, 1979 in GD (P) Branch. During his career, he has commanded a Fighter Squadron, a Fighter Wing and an Operational Air Base. He is a graduate of Combat Commanders School and Air War College. He has also served as Director General at Air Headquarters Islamabad. He is a recipient of Hilal-i-Imtiaz (Military).

Air Marshal Sohail Aman was commissioned in Pakistan Air Force on November, 1980 in GD (P) Branch. During his career, he has commanded a Fighter Squadron, a Fighter Wing and an Operational Air Base. He is a graduate of Combat Commanders School, Air War College and Kings College (London). He has also served as Deputy Chief of Air Staff (Training) at Air Headquarters Islamabad. He is a recipient of Hilal-i-Imtiaz (Military).

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## Bratva



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## fatman17

*Air Chief receives Honorary Pilot Badge from his Thai counterpart*


Friday, June 14, 2013 - Islamabad&#8212;Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force, Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt, who was on an official visit to Royal Thai Air Force was presented with the Honorary Pilot Badge at Royal Thai Air Force Headquarters by Air Chief Marshal Prajin Juntong, Commander-in-Chief of Royal Thai Air Force, in Bangkok.

On his arrival, a smartly turned out contingent of Royal Thai Air Force presented the Guard of Honour. The visiting guest laid a floral wreath on Royal Thai Air Force Monument. According to a PAF press release issued here on Thursday, he also called on Air Chief Marshal Prajin Juntong, Commander-in-Chief of Royal Thai Air Force, in his office.

Both the dignitaries remained together for some time and discussed matters of professional interest. He also attended a briefing on the organization, role and functioning of Royal Thai Air Force.

Earlier, Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force, visited the Royal Thai Air Force Academy, where he was received by Air Marshal Wattana Maneenai, Superintendent Royal Thai Air Force Academy. The CAS, PAF attended a comprehensive briefing about the Academy&#8217;s organization structure and training.&#8212;APP

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## fatman17

"Last month, Israel&#8217;s Haaretz newspaper cited a British government report which listed an application for licences for the export of Israeli military equipment, which contained British components, to a number of countries, including Pakistan.

The British department of business, innovation and skills reported the application was for the export of Israeli Head Up Display (HUD) units and Electronic Warfare (EW) Systems to Pakistan.

HUDs are screens installed above the control panel and before the windscreen in the cockpits of typically military aircraft, especially fighters, which provide selected data inputs to pilots without requiring them to look down to check various data display screens and instruments. Israel manufactures the HUDs for its F-16 fighter aircraft, also operated by the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) in addition to the Chinese-built JF-17.

EW Systems is actually a broad term, and encompasses systems that form the backbone of operations in modern militaries. These are offensive and defensive systems, including directed energy, that work in the electromagnetic (EM) spectrum to identify, track, confuse, intercept, obstruct, jam or destroy enemy electronic systems."


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## fatman17

* Falco Gains Mystery Customer as EVO Prepped for Flight Farnborough Air Show »* 

July 10, 2012 by David Donald


Selex Galileo has announced a new sale for its Falco tactical unmanned air system, bringing the number of export customers to four. The company has also revealed that more than 50 air vehicles are in operation.


While Selex has not named any of its Falco customers, the Pakistan air force has separately declared that it is a major user of the type and that it has seen operational service during anti-terrorist campaigns in Pakistan&#8217;s remote federally administered tribal areas. Pakistan is believed to have been the launch customer for the Falco, which began operations in 2007. Other nations that have been linked with the Falco include Jordan and Saudi Arabia.

As well as providing the Falco air vehicle, Selex Galileo offers a range of sensors, including EOST 46 electro-optical/infrared turret, Gabbiano 20 multi-mode surveillance radar and the PicoSAR radar. The latter is a compact, active &#8220;e-scan&#8221; radar providing synthetic aperture radar imagery and ground moving target indication. When used in conjunction with change detection software, the PicoSAR can be a powerful counter-IED tool. The Falco can also carry the SAGE electronic warfare suite for accurate direction-finding, classification and geo-location of emitters.

Meanwhile, Selex Galileo (Outdoor Exhibit 1) is expecting to begin flight tests of the Falco EVO derivative this week. The EVO was unveiled at last year&#8217;s Paris Air Show and is a version with longer tailbooms and wingspan extended to 41 feet, compared with the 24 feet of the standard version. The extra span equates to an increase in maximum takeoff weight, which is shared between extra payload capacity and more fuel. The latter gives Falco EVO an endurance of more than 18 hours. The fuselage pod of the EVO remains unchanged from that of the baseline version, and the longer wings and tailbooms can be retrofitted to existing Falco vehicles.

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## fatman17

*Northrop Grumman to Deliver Radar Technology to Five Countries*

June 12, 2013

George I. Seffers

Northrop Grumman Electronic Business Segment, Linthicum Heights, Md., has been awarded a maximum $115 million firm-fixed-price contract to provide 16 AN/APG-68 (V)9 radar systems for the Royal Thai Air Force and 22 AN/APG-68 (V)9 radar systems for the Republic of Iraq for a total of 38 radar systems. This foreign military sale also includes spares for the Egyptian Air Force, Royal Moroccan Air Force and Pakistan Air Force. Air Force Life Cycle Management Center, Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Ohio, is the contracting activity.

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## Donatello

fatman17 said:


> *Northrop Grumman to Deliver Radar Technology to Five Countries*
> 
> June 12, 2013
> 
> George I. Seffers
> 
> Northrop Grumman Electronic Business Segment, Linthicum Heights, Md., has been awarded a maximum $115 million firm-fixed-price contract to provide 16 AN/APG-68 (V)9 radar systems for the Royal Thai Air Force and 22 AN/APG-68 (V)9 radar systems for the Republic of Iraq for a total of 38 radar systems. This foreign military sale also includes spares for the Egyptian Air Force, Royal Moroccan Air Force and Pakistan Air Force. Air Force Life Cycle Management Center, Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Ohio, is the contracting activity.



Interesting, since the 18 BLK 52 F-16s come with the new radar anyway, and Pakistan ordered 45 new sets for the MLU aircraft. So is this an indication that PAF is soon to receive more used F-16s?


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## DANGER-ZONE

fatman17 said:


> the dust-bin of history is where they went



But not a single unit in any of PAF Museum ?


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## Bratva

Airforce brats

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## alimobin memon

Since 50 jf17 have been produced and some attrition losses. Whats the present Fleet of Pakistan Air force ? 
Transport, trainer, UAV and other special mission crafts. Pleasue Enlist numbers of all according to your knowledge ?


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## Jango

NATo airplanes briefly came in Pak airspace in Torkham area.

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## Side-Winder

Another Violation?


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## DANGER-ZONE

nuclearpak said:


> NATo airplanes briefly came in Pak airspace in Torkham area.



And there is nothing anyone can do about it because they are our friends and you have to believe it.


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## Windjammer

*Mysterious Pakistan Government Hawker 4000s*

Two Raytheon (Hawker Beechcraft) Hawker 4000 executive jets appear to have recently been acquired by the Pakistan Government, although it's unclear what exactly they are being used for and which Government department is operating them. It is suspected that they may be in use with Pakistan's Directorate for Inter Services Intelligence (ISI), the country's primary national security and intelligence agency. A clue to their use may be in the 'serial' applied to one of the Hawker 4000, which wears only 'EYE77', perhaps indicating that it has a surveillance capability.

Courtesey: AFM August. 2013.

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## Slav Defence

Windjammer said:


> *Mysterious Pakistan Government Hawker 4000s*
> 
> Two Raytheon (Hawker Beechcraft) Hawker 4000 executive jets appear to have recently been acquired by the Pakistan Government, although it's unclear what exactly they are being used for and which Government department is operating them. It is suspected that they may be in use with Pakistan's Directorate for Inter Services Intelligence (ISI), the country's primary national security and intelligence agency. A clue to their use may be in the 'serial' applied to one of the Hawker 4000, which wears only 'EYE77', perhaps indicating that it has a surveillance capability.
> 
> Courtesey: AFM August. 2013.



windy can you post some images?


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## Windjammer

Slav Defence said:


> windy can you post some images?



Will do dear but later as I'm at work now. !!

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## Jango

It is of some government agency, some site says PAF, some says GOP. 

I doubt if it is of ISI exclusively, ISI also uses Army Aviation assets alot of times.


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## air marshal

*No NATO jet intruded Pak airspace: PAF*
July 21, 2013

ISLAMABAD/KHYBER AGENCY: The Pakistan Air Force has refuted media reports that NATO jets intruded Pakistani airspace on the midnight of Friday and Saturday.

According to media reports, the PAF spokesperson said that aircrafts which flew into Pakistan&#8217;s airspace were passenger planes and they were allowed to enter the airspace due to bad weather. 

However, the PAF spokesperson said that NATO aircrafts did not violate the Pakistani airspace. Earlier, local media had reported that NATO aircrafts continued violation of the Pakistani airspace on Friday night, third time in a week. 

The reports said that NATO fighter jets entered Torkham border area and continued flight for 10 minutes.


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## Jango

Is that a Crotale at the background? Just above the aircraft? To the right of the busses.

All credits of the picture to the uploader, member taha_imran4 of PIA forum.


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## Capt.Popeye

nuclearpak said:


> Is that a Crotale at the background? Just above the aircraft? To the right of the busses.
> 
> All credits of the picture to the uploader, member taha_imran4 of PIA forum.



Yes, that seems to be a mobile Crotale SAM launcher. Though the launcher(s) is not clear, the vehicle is.


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## hassan1

Capt.Popeye said:


> Yes, that seems to be a mobile Crotale SAM launcher. Though the launcher(s) is not clear, the vehicle is.



vEHICAL: Panhard AML 60
operated by PAF GROUND CONTROL wings


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## Irfan Baloch

DANGER-ZONE said:


> And there is nothing anyone can do about it because they are our friends and you have to believe it.



what did we do to the Indian planes and helicopters?
we force landed them or gave them warnings to leave
we are not taliban to shoot everything that we see.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Irfan Baloch said:


> what did we do to the Indian planes and helicopters?
> we force landed them or gave them warnings to leave
> we are not taliban to shoot everything that we see.



And what did they do to our atlantique?

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## DANGER-ZONE

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> And what did they do to our atlantique?



That hit hard dude

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## DESERT FIGHTER

DANGER-ZONE said:


> That hit hard dude



If it was upto me id shot every indian jet or heli tht enters Pakistan...


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## hassan1

August 1947: The Royal Air Force flag is hauled down and the Pakistani flag is hoisted at an unidentified RAF base or installation seen at the time of the Partition of India, this instillation was turned over to Pakistan.






August 1947: The Royal Air Force flag is hauled down and the Pakistani flag is hoisted at an unidentified RAF base or installation seen at the time of the Partition of India, this instillation was turned over to Pakistan. August 1947: The Royal Air Force flag is hauled down and the Pakistani flag is hoisted at an unidentified RAF base or installation seen at the time of the Partition of India, this instillation was turned over to Pakistan. August 1947: The Royal Air Force flag is hauled down and the Pakistani flag is hoisted at an unidentified RAF base or installation seen at the time of the Partition of India, this instillation was turned over to Pakistan.

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## Last Hope

RAWALPINDI Aug 7 (APP): Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is all set to attain capability of keeping its indigenously developed fighter aircraft JF 17 (Thunder) airborne for longer haul, said Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafiq Butt. The ground tests have been very successful and I am satisfied. The air to air refueling test) will be done successfully by end of this summer, Air Chief Marshal Butt said in an interview with Defence Janes Weekly. Pakistan had acquired the refueling air tankers Ilyushin II-78 from Ukraine back in 2010 and these are being synchronized with Medium to High Tech multi-role aircraft thus giving it the capability to remain in air for longer durations.

ACM Butt pointed out that the capability would enhance the marketability of the aircraft which at present is being monitored by a number countries due to its cost effectiveness and other valuable abilities. 

The JF-17 program has been an excellent project to pursue, owing to the hard work put in by our engineers, technicians and test pilots, ACM Butt said. All this would also not have been possible without the cooperation of China. 

He said JF-17 with an attractive price tag has the capability of carrying a variety of weapons, it is a true multirole aircraft and in time would become the PAFs mainstay.
He said that PAF has plan to induct around 200 t0 250 JF-17 aircraft. 

Answering a question regarding the induction of Chinese-built ZDK-03 airborne early warning aircraft - a platform, ACM Butt said it has so far shown that its capabilities work well over sea, plains and mountainous terrain.

In the meantime, he said PAF has also been maintaining and operating a sizeable fleet of US F-16 aircraft for a considerable time and its air/ground crew are fairly experienced in handling the weapon system. 

The PAF received its last batch of F-16s in the recent past and even now there are US Congressional clearances available for the provision of additional F-16 aircraft. Owing to requirements/compulsions in the future, there exists a possibility of acquisition of additional F-16 aircraft, he said.

To a query regarding purchase of High Tech aircraft, he said options are still open.
ACM Butt said that PAF must prepare for a two-front situation in view of its combat role in Pakistans anti- terrorism campaign, which has evolved since the 9/11 attacks on the US, in addition to its historic adversarial role as Indias neighbor.

Airpower can achieve much more in a short span of time if employed with clear understanding of its capabilities, he said. Its inherent flexibility has enabled nation states to successfully deter their conventional adversaries as well as prosecute irregular outfits. We are now faced with a definite two-front scenario: external as well as internal. While we have always prepared for the traditional and ominous external threat, the new predicament did take us a while to get up to speed with, but ...we did manage to learn on the job quickly and are very efficiently supporting our ground troops in all their operations against militants/terrorists.


--------

ACM hints that PAF may go for additional F-16s if required.

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## Argus Panoptes

Last Hope said:


> ..........
> 
> --------
> 
> ACM hints that PAF may go for additional F-16s *if required*.



What could those requirements possible be to need more F-16s? What does it mean for our plans to move away from USA as military supplier given its historic unreliability as a friends?

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## Last Hope

Argus Panoptes said:


> What could those requirements possible be to need more F-16s? What does it mean for our plans to move away from USA as military supplier given its historic unreliability as a friends?



Going towards F-16s mean not going with J-10s, for any possible reasons.


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## Gryphon

Last Hope said:


> Going towards F-16s mean not going with J-10s, for any possible reasons.



Definitely not ... I think PAF is negotiating for those 18 F-16 Block 50/52's which were delayed due to funds shortage ...



> The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of up to 36 F-16C Block 50 and F-16D Block 52 external link two-seater aircraft &#8211; a buy of 18 jets, with an option for another 18. The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $3 billion.



$5.1B Proposed Sales, Upgrades, Weapons Pakistan&#8217;s F-16s

For J-10 deal, China has already tested the FC-20 variant for Pakistan and they will be delivered in 2015. I don't remember where I read China was producing one FC-20 / three months for Pakistan ...


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## HAIDER

Chief of Air Staff Air Marshal Tahir Rafiq Butt sits inside the cockpit of a fighter aircraft and is briefed on the systems during IDEAS 2012. PHOTO: APP/FILE

RAWALPINDI: Chief of Air Staff Air Marshall Tahir Rafiq Butt says that the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) must prepare for a two-front situation in view of its combat role in the anti- terrorism campaign, which has evolved since the 9/11 attacks on the US, and in addition to its traditional adversarial role as India&#8217;s neighbour.
&#8220;Airpower can achieve much more in a short span of time if employed with clear understanding of its capabilities,&#8221; he said in an interview to Defence Jane&#8217;s Weekly.
&#8220;Its inherent flexibility has enabled nation states to successfully deter their conventional adversaries as well as prosecute irregular outfits.&#8221;
The air chief said that while it always had to be prepared for the external threat, it now had to reconfigure itself to deal with an internal threat too.
&#8220;We are now faced with a definite two-front scenario: external as well as internal.&#8221;
While claiming that the PAF has proven itself to learn quickly on the job, Butt conceded that it did take them some time to get up to speed with the new challenge.
&#8220;While we have always prepared for the traditional and ominous external threat, the new predicament did take us a while to get up to speed with, but &#8230;we did manage to learn on the job quickly and are very efficiently supporting our ground troops in all their operations against militants and terrorists.&#8221;
PAF seeks to enhance JF-17 capabilities
The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is seeking to enhance its latest multi-role fighter, trying to enable the JF-17 aircraft to refuel in mid-air, even though it remains open to procuring the more established and technologically advanced F-16 fighter jets.
Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafiq Butt in an interview to Defence Jane&#8217;s Weekly said that the PAF was enhancing the JF-17 Thunder, jointly produced by Pakistan and China, and its flight time through the Ilyushin Il-78 air tankers, with the tests set to be completed by the end of the summer.
&#8220;The ground tests have been very successful and I am satisfied. The air-to-air (refueling test) will be done successfully by end of this summer.&#8221;
Pakistan had acquired refueling air tankers Ilyushin II-78 from Ukraine back in 2010. The tankers are now synchronising with medium-to-high tech multi-role aircraft in the PAF fleet, enhancing their capability to stay in the air for longer periods.
&#8220;The JF-17 program has been an excellent project to pursue, owing to the hard work put in by our engineers, technicians and test pilots,&#8221; the Air Chief said, adding &#8220;all this would also not have been possible without the cooperation of China.&#8221;
The JF-17 Thunder programme was jointly pursued by Pakistan and China to give Pakistan a third generation mutli-role aircraft that will replace its ageing fleet of French-made Mirage aircrafts and supplement its powerful, yet limited US built F-16 fighters. The PAF hoped that with an attractive price tag, the JF-17&#8217;s capability of carrying a variety of weapons, it would in time &#8221; become the PAF&#8217;s mainstay.&#8221;
Butt said that the PAF plans to induct between 200 and 250 JF-17 aircraft in an airforce which has an estimated strength of 400 fighter aircrafts.
*Possibility for more F-16 buys
The PAF has come under pressure recently after traditional and conventional rival India stepped up efforts to upgrade its airforce last year with a major order for fighters made by Rafale.
The most advanced aircraft in the PAF fleet which can match this is the Lockheed Martin made F-16. Most of the F-16 fleet that the PAF had till early 2000s were Block 32 A and B aircraft purchased in the 1980s. It wasn&#8217;t till the late 2000s that the US Congress eased restrictions for Pakistan to upgrade the older aircrafts and purchases for new Block 52 D and C aircraft.
The Air Chief said that PAF has also been maintaining and operating a sizeable fleet of US F-16 aircraft for a considerable time and its air and ground crews were fairly experienced in handling the weapon system.*
*&#8220;The PAF received its last batch of F-16s in the recent past and even now there are US Congressional clearances available for the provision of additional F-16 aircraft. Owing to requirements, compulsions in the future, there exists a possibility of acquisition of additional F-16 aircraft,&#8221; he said.
But with the F-16s touted by some experts as an antiquated weapons platform in light of fourth generation aircraft being developed in the US, Russia and China and recent purchases made by India, Butt said that options are still open on the purchase of high tech weapons systems.
Chinese AWACs
*Answering a question regarding the induction of Chinese-built ZDK-03 airborne early warning and control (AWACs) aircraft, Butt said it has so far shown that the platform&#8217;s capabilities work well over sea, plains and mountainous terrain.
Pakistan has four US built P-3C Orion AWACs aircraft. At least two of the aircrafts in Pakistan&#8217;s fleet were destroyed in the 2011 attack on the Mehran airbase in Karachi. The US agreed to replace the two destroyed aircraft.

PAF must prepare for a two-front situation in war on terror: Air Chief &#8211; The Express Tribune

Interesting to see PAF now working on "two front" theory.


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## HAIDER

Associated Press Of Pakistan ( Pakistan's Premier NEWS Agency ) - PAF to attain capability to keep its fighting force airborne for long haul: CAS


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## Pak47

Are we looking at older F-16's and Upgrading them or the 18+ B52 option?


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## Edevelop

We should not buy more F-16s. They are overpriced and prone to sanctions. In my view, PAF should go for J-10s.

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## special

f-16 can match Rafale?...



cb4 said:


> We should not buy more F-16s. They are overpriced and prone to sanctions. In my view, PAF should go for J-10s.



f-16 is more capable than j-10.


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## Side-Winder

cb4 said:


> We should not buy more F-16s. They are overpriced and prone to sanctions. In my view, PAF should go for J-10s.



only when J-10 is ready! let's see! but it will take time



special said:


> f-16 can match Rafale?...
> 
> 
> 
> f-16 is more capable than j-10.




The specs J-10B does have on paper renders it capable enough to tackle Block 52s FOR SURE -- and even rafales -- air war is unpredictable -- only thing we have to see is that when AESA's and Indigenous engines for J-10B become ready!


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## fatman17

*Pakistan to attain capability to keep its fighting force airborne for long haul*


By Associated Press of Pakistan on Wednesday, August 7th, 2013 


Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is all set to attain capability of keeping its indigenously developed fighter aircraft &#8220;JF 17 (Thunder) airborne for longer haul, said Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafiq Butt. &#8220;The ground tests have been very successful and I am satisfied. The air to air refueling test) will be done successfully by end of this summer, Air Chief Marshal Butt said in an interview with Defence Jane&#8217;s Weekly. Pakistan had acquired the refueling air tankers Ilyushin II-78 from Ukraine back in 2010 and these are being synchronized with Medium to High Tech multi-role aircraft thus giving it the capability to remain in air for longer durations. 

ACM Butt pointed out that the capability would enhance the marketability of the aircraft which at present is being monitored by a number countries due to its cost effectiveness and other valuable abilities. 

&#8220;The JF-17 program has been an excellent project to pursue, owing to the hard work put in by our engineers, technicians and test pilots,&#8221; ACM Butt said. &#8220;All this would also not have been possible without the cooperation of China.&#8221; 

He said JF-17 with an attractive price tag has the capability of carrying a variety of weapons, it is a true multirole aircraft and in time &#8220;would become the PAF&#8217;s mainstay.&#8221;

He said that PAF has plan to induct around 200 t0 250 JF-17 aircraft. 

Answering a question regarding the induction of Chinese-built ZDK-03 airborne early warning aircraft &#8211; a platform, ACM Butt said it has so far shown that its capabilities work well over sea, plains and mountainous terrain.&#8221;

In the meantime, he said PAF has also been maintaining and operating a sizeable fleet of US F-16 aircraft for a considerable time and its air/ground crew are fairly experienced in handling the weapon system. 

&#8220;The PAF received its last batch of F-16s in the recent past and even now there are US Congressional clearances available for the provision of additional F-16 aircraft. Owing to requirements/compulsions in the future, there exists a possibility of acquisition of additional F-16 aircraft, he said.

To a query regarding purchase of High Tech aircraft, he said options are still open.

ACM Butt said that PAF must prepare for a two-front situation in view of its combat role in Pakistan&#8217;s anti- terrorism campaign, which has evolved since the 9/11 attacks on the US, in addition to its historic adversarial role as India&#8217;s neighbor.

&#8220;Airpower can achieve much more in a short span of time if employed with clear understanding of its capabilities,&#8221; he said. &#8220;Its inherent flexibility has enabled nation states to successfully deter their conventional adversaries as well as prosecute irregular outfits. We are now faced with a definite two-front scenario: external as well as internal. While we have always prepared for the traditional and ominous external threat, the new predicament did take us a while to get up to speed with, but &#8230;we did manage to learn on the job quickly and are very efficiently supporting our ground troops in all their operations against militants/terrorists.&#8221;



Read more: http://www.****************/paf-pak...y-for-jf-17-fighter-jets-48683/#ixzz2bM1YyQXW


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## Windjammer

special said:


> f-16 can match Rafale?...



The PAF F-16 have in recent times repeatedly beaten the EF Typhoon and F-15 Eagle so what's the big deal in matching the Rafale. !!


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## fatman17

merge this with posted in PAF news and discussions


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Wont be surprised if they do... same goes for J-10Bs which were approved by the govt.


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## Secur

Windjammer said:


> The PAF F-16 have in recent times repeatedly beaten the EF Typhoon and F-15 Eagle so what's the big deal in matching the Rafale. !!



Well , it has recently been upgraded to the status of ' God's new gift to aviation ' so its hardly surprising . After all , according to the Monsieurs , Rafale can match a 5th generation aircraft too .


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## Gryphon

Pak47 said:


> Are we looking at older F-16's and Upgrading them or the 18+ B52 option?



14 Second hand F-16's were given to PAF under Excess Defense Articles (EDA) program ... And Pak wanted 14 more ... but US Navy refused to release those from its aggressive units ... So no Ex-US F-16's

PAF may be planning to order 18 New F-16 Block 50/52's but all depends on $$$ which is scarce ..

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## S.Y.A

Secur said:


> Well , it has recently been upgraded to the status of ' God's new gift to aviation ' so its hardly surprising . After all , according to the Monsieurs , *Rafale can match a 5th generation aircraft too *.



that was discussed earlier by some members here, according to them typhoon is way more stealthier than rafale, and french are just day-dreaming.

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## Kompromat

Posted Multiple times before.


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## Nishan_101

Last Hope said:


> RAWALPINDI Aug 7 (APP): Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is all set to attain capability of keeping its indigenously developed fighter aircraft JF 17 (Thunder) airborne for longer haul, said Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafiq Butt. The ground tests have been very successful and I am satisfied. The air to air refueling test) will be done successfully by end of this summer, Air Chief Marshal Butt said in an interview with Defence Janes Weekly. Pakistan had acquired the refueling air tankers Ilyushin II-78 from Ukraine back in 2010 and these are being synchronized with Medium to High Tech multi-role aircraft thus giving it the capability to remain in air for longer durations.
> 
> ACM Butt pointed out that the capability would enhance the marketability of the aircraft which at present is being monitored by a number countries due to its cost effectiveness and other valuable abilities.
> 
> The JF-17 program has been an excellent project to pursue, owing to the hard work put in by our engineers, technicians and test pilots, ACM Butt said. All this would also not have been possible without the cooperation of China.
> 
> He said JF-17 with an attractive price tag has the capability of carrying a variety of weapons, it is a true multirole aircraft and in time would become the PAFs mainstay.
> He said that PAF has plan to induct around 200 t0 250 JF-17 aircraft.
> 
> Answering a question regarding the induction of Chinese-built ZDK-03 airborne early warning aircraft - a platform, ACM Butt said it has so far shown that its capabilities work well over sea, plains and mountainous terrain.
> 
> In the meantime, he said PAF has also been maintaining and operating a sizeable fleet of US F-16 aircraft for a considerable time and its air/ground crew are fairly experienced in handling the weapon system.
> 
> The PAF received its last batch of F-16s in the recent past and even now there are US Congressional clearances available for the provision of additional F-16 aircraft. Owing to requirements/compulsions in the future, there exists a possibility of acquisition of additional F-16 aircraft, he said.
> 
> To a query regarding purchase of High Tech aircraft, he said options are still open.
> ACM Butt said that PAF must prepare for a two-front situation in view of its combat role in Pakistans anti- terrorism campaign, which has evolved since the 9/11 attacks on the US, in addition to its historic adversarial role as Indias neighbor.
> 
> Airpower can achieve much more in a short span of time if employed with clear understanding of its capabilities, he said. Its inherent flexibility has enabled nation states to successfully deter their conventional adversaries as well as prosecute irregular outfits. We are now faced with a definite two-front scenario: external as well as internal. While we have always prepared for the traditional and ominous external threat, the new predicament did take us a while to get up to speed with, but ...we did manage to learn on the job quickly and are very efficiently supporting our ground troops in all their operations against militants/terrorists.
> 
> 
> --------
> 
> ACM hints that PAF may go for additional F-16s if required.



I am sure PAF is just looking to get back the 14 remaining F-16s with upgrade kits to get them upgraded at TAI also PAF might be looking in for J-31 in their fleet by 2020...


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## Capt.Popeye

HAIDER said:


> PAF must prepare for a two-front situation in war on terror: Air Chief  The Express Tribune
> 
> Interesting to see PAF now working on "two front" theory.



THe Two-Front theory is inevitable. Actually that should read: "Two and a Half fronts". The Security forces will now have to cope with an internal front too. That has gone beyond the capabilities of the Police and Civilian forces.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> 14 Second hand F-16's were given to PAF under Excess Defense Articles (EDA) program ... And Pak wanted 14 more ... but US Navy refused to release those from its aggressive units ... So no Ex-US F-16's
> 
> PAF may be planning to order 18 New F-16 Block 50/52's but all depends on $$$ which is scarce ..



Those belonged to Pakistan anyways.. paid by Pakistan in the 90s.. sanctioned and given to USN.



Capt.Popeye said:


> THe Two-Front theory is inevitable. Actually that should read: "Two and a Half fronts". The Security forces will now have to cope with an internal front too. That has gone beyond the capabilities of the Police and Civilian forces.



Interesting fact is tht even those terrorists are willing to fight india.

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## Rahil khan

Capt.Popeye said:


> Now when did you _start fighting?_ that you are talking of _stopping fighting!_
> 
> We'll just send them to _Jannat_; with all those 72 gorillas etc...... We know how to do that.
> 
> Btw, RIP to the unfortunate 24 of your compatriots in Quetta today.


That's the problem with you guys. Sitting in India, thinking about Pakistan that its gonna fall in 2010, 11, 12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19...........................and just never wanna come outa there wishful day dreaming. Every terrorist is a terrorist whether he is in India and Pakistan. Besides your blame game, with which Pakistan is accused of every time even a cracker is blown off in India, Indian politicians use Pakistan as a punching pad whenever elections are near, without thinking the outcome or consequences of such habit, by putting the lives of over a billion people of subcontinent in jeopardy.....Terrorism is a mindset, a psyche, and Pakistani people and Pakistani forces are fighting hard against it, of course paying a heavy price. Sometimes comments such as yours are a great surprise for me....should i start posting the pics of all those Shaheeds including the highly decorated military officers, who gave theirs lives while fighting hard to save my future??? "Where ignorance is our master, there is no possibility of real peace." That's all i can say about your pathetic sickening mindset....

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## Jango

nuclearpak said:


> Is that a Crotale at the background? Just above the aircraft? To the right of the busses.
> 
> All credits of the picture to the uploader, member taha_imran4 of PIA forum.



It is actually this vehicle...






A permanent fixture now at Chaklala...maybe to counter terrorists.

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## fatman17

*Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafiq Butt announced on Wednesday that the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) must prepare for a two-front war with both India and militancy within Pakistan*. Butt&#8217;s statement came as he was announcing new in-air refuelling capabilities for Pakistan&#8217;s JF-17 aircraft. Butt also noted that the PAF&#8217;s ability to respond to asymmetrical warfare has improved, stating, &#8220;while we have always prepared for the traditional and ominous external threat, the new predicament did take us a while to get up to speed with, but &#8230;we did manage to learn on the job quickly and are very efficiently supporting our ground troops in all their operations against militants and terrorists.&#8221;[6]



nuclearpak said:


> It is actually this vehicle...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A permanent fixture now at Chaklala...maybe to counter terrorists.



looks like a eastern-european 4x4 armed vehicle.


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## piddu

pakistan zindabad

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## hassan1



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## fatman17

*Aces High - Combat Pilots of the Subcontinent.*


A Painting by PAF Group Captain Syed Masood Akhtar Hussaini of an Air Combat on 4 December 1971, shows the nature of Air Combat in the Sub Continent. Fast, Low Level and Deadly. This Painting shows Flt Lt Salim Beg Mirza skimming the barren lands North of Peshawar, as his victim, Flt Lt K P Muralidharan in Hunter A462 of No.20 IAF Squadron, cartwheels into the ground.


In two airwars that India and Pakistan had fought against each other and several other airwars that Pakistan had fought, pilots of both sides came in conflict with each other and quite a significant number of multiple kills by pilots were claimed. Pakistan having quite a good number of pilots who were credited with more than one kill. 

On the Indian side, there were no instances of pilots being credited with more than one kill, with a couple of exceptions.

One reason being that the average Indian Pilot faced less number of targets than his counter part in the Pakistan Air Force did. 

The other being, the Pakistani Pilot was better trained than the average Indian Pilot in the 1965 Conflict. The IAF just coming out of the post 1962 expansion had inducted a large number of fresh pilots, who had very few hours behind them and consequently were less trained than the Pakistanis.

In this page and others we look through those pilots who have confirmed multiple kills. Now this is different from claims. the difference between Claims and Kills is vast, a prominent example being that Pakistan claimed nearly 34 aircombat kills in 1965, out of which only 18 are verifiable. India fares no better. 18 Claims versus 9 Confirmations from the Pakistani Side. 

In 1971 the situation was only slightly better, PAF claimed a total of 40 plus air kills , about half of them are confirmed on Indian side. Recent PAF figures for kills in the Afghan Air War are more reliable 

In each of the pages, the site is divided into two sets of names, the first set of names are of pilots of whom there is no doubt about the confirmation of their claims. The second set of names are of pilots whose claims are not confirmed, but for whom there is a possiblity that the confirmation might come at a later date.

The kills are classified as follows.

Confirmed : There is no doubt that the kill was made by the pilot in question.
Probable : This signifies that the particular loss has occured, but whether it can be credited to that particular pilot is doubtful.
Unconfirmed: No particular loss has occured relating to the event in question.

Jaganpvs.tripod.com.



*Pakistani Combat Pilots* 


The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has fought more air wars than any other country in South Asia. Starting with two wars with India, Pakistani pilots took part in two Arab-Israeli wars and also against the Afghan Air Force during the Afghan fighting. Faced with a good number of opportunities it&#8217;s no wonder that they fared pretty well in notching up multiple kills. After sifting through records, The following stand out: 

1.	Sqn Ldr Mohammed Mahmud Alam 1965 Indo-Pakistan War, 4 Kills. 
2.	Sqn Ldr Sarfaraz Ahmed Rafique 1965 Indo-Pakistan War , 3 Kills 
3.	Sqn Ldr Saif ul Azam 1965 Indo Pakistan War and 1967 Arab-Israeli War. 4 Kills 
4.	Flt Lt. Salim Beg Mirza 1971 Indo Pakistan War, 2 Kills 
5.	Flt Lt. Khalid Mahmood 1988 Afghan War. 4 Kills 


Sqn Ldr Mohammed Mahmud Alam , SJ and Bar	Sqn Ldr Alam was the Commanding Officer of No.11 PAF Squadron flying Sabres during the 65 Conflict. Most certainly the top scoring pilot of that particular War, Alam had notched up Four Confirmed Hunters and One Probable Hunter Kill during several encounters with the Indian Air Force. Undoubtedly an Experienced and skilled pilot, all his victims were Hunter fighters and by a coincidence, all the Hunters though shot down in different occasions belonged to the same Squadron. No.7 IAF "Battle Axes". Alam shot down his first Hunter on Sep 6th, 1965 in a raid on the Indian Air Field at Adampur. Intercepted by Four Hunters of the IAF, Alam got onto the tail of Sqn Ldr A K "Peter" Rawlley. Rawlley lost control of the aircraft trying to evade Alam and struck the ground and got killed. The very next day, Alam bought down two Hunters which were exiting from a raid on Sargodha. Both the Pilots, Sqn Ldr Bhagwat and Fg Off J S Brar were killed. Alam scored again in the war on Sep 16th, while leading a raid on the airfield at Halwara. Alam bought down Fg Off Farokh Bunsha's Hunter although losing his wingman to another Hunter in the process. 

Alam's feat of being the top scorer of the conflict is however marred by his inaccurate claims. At the end of the war, he had put in claims for Nine Hunters shot down whereas Indian Records do not support it. and this was made worse by the wartime propaganda efforts. In reality Alam has Four Confirmed kills. there is a dispute about another Hunter loss, Sqn Ldr O N Kacker who ejected in Pakistan on Sep 7th, is credited to Alam, by the PAF. The Indian Air Force says otherwise, Kacker was lost miles away from the area where Alam claimed his kill. The debate rages on. If Alam did shoot Kacker down, then He can rightfully claim to be the first Jet Ace from the Subcontinent.

In the final reckoning, there is no doubt that Alam remains the top scoring pilot of the Pakistan Air Force in its wars against India. Alam did not fly in the 71 Conflict.

Confirmed Kills : 4 
Probable Kills : 1
Unconfirmed Claims : 4	


Sqn Ldr Sarfaraz Ahmed Rafique ,HJ and SJ .	Rafiqui opened up the Air War in 1965 when he led a two Sabre Formation that intercepted a formation of Four Vampires from the composite No.45/220 Indian Air Force Squadron. Rafique shot down two Vampires flown by Sqn Ldr A K Bhagwagar and Bharadwaj and while his Wingman shot down another flown by Flt Lt V M Joshi. A lone aircraft from the this ill-fated Vampire formation flown by Fg Off Sodhi made it back to the base. 

Rafiquis third kill came on Sept 6th, when he led a raid on the Halwara airbase. He jumped the Hunter CAP at Halwara and shot down Fg Off P S Pingale, who ejected soon after his aircraft got hit. But Rafiqui himself became a victim soon after , he failed to see that Pingale's wingman had worked back onto his tail and attacked him . Fg Off A R Gandhi managed to damage Rafiqui's aircraft. In the last desperate throes of his doomed Sabre, Rafiqui tried to eject, but his aircraft hit the ground before he could do so.

He was awarded the Sitara E Juraat for Bravery and the Hilaal E Juraat for Leadership.

Confirmed Kills : 3	


Sqn Ldr Saiful Azam SJ	Saiful Azam is a not heard of much in aircombat. Azam has the unique distinction of having kills against airforces of two different countries. as a young flying officer during the 65 Conflict, Saiful Azam managed to shoot down an IAF Gnat on Sept 18th, a rarity as such the Gnat was seldom lost in Aircombat. his victim Fg Off V Mayadev ejected to become a POW. 

Azam participated two years later in the Arab Israeli conflict of June 1967. deputed to the Royal Jordanian Air Force, flying Hunters, the RJAF Hunters were flown out to the Iraqi Airbase of H-3 in an attempt to put them out of range of Israeli Air Force. It was here he accomplished a unique feat, flying in a Hawker Hunter as a No.2 His formation intercepted an Israeli formation of Four Vautours and Two Mirage IIIs. One of the Mirage IIIs was flown by Capt. Gideon Dror. Dror shot down Azam's Wingman, but himself fell to Azam's Guns. Dror ejected to be taken POW. Moments later, Azam intercepted the formation of four Vantour Bombers and bought down one of them flown by Capt Golan, who ejected. . Azam had earlier bought down a Super Mystere the previous day over Jordan. Azam , being a Bengali did not fly in the 71 conflict.

In the final reckoning Azam ties up with Alam in terms of kills, but his tally has a range of kills including the enviable credit of a Mach 2 Mirage III Fighter.

Confirmed Kills : 4	


Flt Lt. Salim Beg Mirza	Flt Lt Salim Beg Mirza has to his credit two Combat Victories against the Indian Air Force, both of them during the 1971 War. Mirza was involved in a Hot Scramble from Peshawar trying to intercept an incoming Hunter raid on the second day of the war on 4 Dec 71. The hunters were operating at the extreme range of operations and Mirza bought down one Hunter flown by Fg Off K P Muralidharan. 

Ten Days later in a raid on Srinagar in which he was the fighter escort in a Six Sabre Mission, they were met by a solitary Gnat flown by Fg Off N S Sekhon. Though Sekhon got involved in aircombat with all the Six Sabres, It was Salim Beg Mirza who is credited with downing Sekhon. thus getting his second Confirmed victim of the bar. Both of Salim Beg Mirza's victims were killed in the confict.

Confirmed Kills : 2	


Flt Lt. Khalid Mahmood	Flt Lt. Khalid Mahmood is from Contemporary times, one of the top scoring pilots in the world to have notched up multiple kills on the F-16. Khalid Mahmood flew several sorties against the Afghan Air Force, bringing down on one occasion, One MiG-23 Flogger and another MiG-23 as a probable with AIM 9 Sidewinder Missiles in a single sortie, . He bought down One Su-22 Fitter later. 

He was also involved in an interception against an An-26 Transport, This An-26 pilot showed all signs of surrendering/defecting when intercepted. but crashed trying to land . 

Confirmed Kills : 2 
Unconfirmed Kill : 1	

Other PAF Pilots with Multiple Kill Claims that are not established through records.

Name of the Pilot	Claims	Remarks

Flt Lt Imtiaz Bhatti	2 Vampires over Chamb 1 Sept 65.	Only the loss of One Vampire is confirmed . Another Vampire was also lost in the same area, but is credited to AAA fire.

Flt Lt Cecil Choudhary	3 Hunters over Halwara 6 Sept 65,
1 Canberra on 16 Sept 65,
1 Sukhoi-7 on 11 Dec 71.	He is credited with Downing Fg Off A R Gandhi on 6 Sept 71. but the remaining claims are not confirmed.

Flt Lt Shamsul Haq	1 Hunter on 4 Dec 71 at Dacca in a F-86
1 Su-7 on 4 Dec 71 in a F-86
2 Hunters on 4 Dec 71 in a F-86	All Claims are unconfirmed with the possible exception of a solitary Hunter. IAF Claims the only Su-7 lost in the east was due to AA Fire.

Sqn Ldr Abdul Hamid Quadri	2 Su-22 Fitters in the Afghan War.	Only One Su-22 wreckage was recovered.The other was observed to be on fire and exiting into Afghanistan. 

Note: All Ranks mentioned above are at the time of their first kills.



*Combat Pilots of the Subcontinent - FAQ*


This page is designed to anwser some of the most frequently asked questions regarding air combat in the Sub Continent. This is set up to dispel certain myths as well as convert certain others into fact.

1. Who was the first Indian Pilot to score a Kill?
2. Who is the top scoring Indian Pilot?
3. Which airforce among India and Pakistan got its first kill first?
4. How many aircraft did Param Vir Chakra awardee Fg Off N S Sekhon shoot down?
5. Who is the top scoring PAF Pilot?
6. Which are the "best" air combat incidents that can be termed as "classic"?

1. Who was the first Indian Pilot to Score a Kill?
The anwser depends on the conflict on which the question is based. Usually Sqn. Ldr. Trevor Keelor is said to be the first Indian Pilot to get a kill. He is the first if you consider combat after Independence. Indian pilots opened up their scores as far back as in the first world war when Flt Lt Inder Lal Roy shot down more than Nine German aircraft. In the Second World War, Fg Off J C Verma remains the only pilot to be granted an air combat kill - A Japanese Oscar fighter SD while he was flying a Hurricane fighter. Keelor is credited with the first kill by the Independent Indian Air Force. Recent research indicates that It may not be Keelor but Flt Lt V S Pathania who scored the first air combat kill after Independence.

2. Who is the top scoring Indian Pilot?
Officially, The top scoring pilot is Wg Cdr Vinod Kumar Neb, VrC and Bar, who is credited with two kills, One from 65 and one from 71. Two other pilots are also credited with twin kills in their citations, Wg Cdr F J Mehta VrC and Air Marshal P S Pingale VrC, but it is generally accepted that it was an inaccurate war time assessment. One pilot who may not have been offically credited but certainly is a contender is Air Cmde A T Cooke VrC.

3. Which airforce among India and Pakistan got its first kill first?
Its the Pakistani Air Force which got its aircombat kill first, and contrary to public opinion it is not in the 1965 conflict but in 1959 when an IAF Canberra that strayed into Pakistan was shot down by Flt Lt. Yunus in a Sabre. The PAF also drew first blood in the 65 War on the first day itself when Sqn Ldr S A Rafiqui shot down a Vampire fighter bomber.

4. How many aircraft did Param Vir Chakra awardee Fg Off N S Sekhon shoot down?
None, Sekhon damaged two of the Six attacking aircraft, one of them badly, but none of the attacking PAF Aircraft were downed.

5. Who is the top scoring PAF Pilot?
There are actually two of them. Sqn Ldr M M Alam with Four Hunters as kills from the 65 War, Flt Lt Saiful Azam with One Gnat from the 65 War and Three Israeli kills from the 67 Conflict is the other contender. Coming a close second is Sqn Ldr S A Rafique who has two Vampires and One Hunter as his kills from the 65 War.

6. Which are the best aircombat incidents that can be termed as classic fights?
In my view the following are the classic "dogfights" of the Indo-Pakistani Wars.

1965
a. Aircombat over Halwara on 6 September 1965 between Three Sabres and Two Hunters, which were reinforced by another two Hunters later on.
b. The Second PAF Raid on Kalaikunda of Four Sabres which was intercepted by Two Hunters of No.14 Sqn.
c. The First Mystere Raid on Sargodha which was intercepted by One Starfighter.
d. The Second Hunter Raid on Sargodha of Five Hunters in which Two Hunters were downed by Sqn Ldr Alam.
e. The Two Hunters Vs Two Sabres dogfight over Halwara on 15th September in which One Sabre and One Hunter were downed.

1971
a. The first aircombat over Dacca in which Three Hunters were intercepted by Four Sabres. (One Sabre was downed)
b. The interception of No.27 Hunter's raid on Murid by a F-6 on Dec 4th. (One Hunter was shot down)
c. Interception of the raid on Sakesar by Two F-6s. (Two Hunters were shot down)
d. Aircombat over Srinagar between Six Sabres and One Gnat.
e. Aircombat over Jamnagar between One F-104 Starfighter and One MiG-21
f. Aircombat over Jamnagar between Two Starfighters and Two MiG-21s.
g. Aircombat over Pasrur between One MiG-21 and One Sabre (MiG-21 was shot down)




*Indian Combat Pilots* 


Unlike the listing for Pakistani Pilots, There is no one single Indian Pilot of whom we can say had shot down two aircraft that are Confirmed Kills. Though there are a good number of pilots who have claimed probable, some of them await a confirmation from Pakistani Sources. Incidentally one of the pilots did not even claim two kills; only years later did it come out that he may have been responsible for the write off of a second aircraft. 

1.	Wg Cdr Vinod Kumar Neb VrC and Bar , 1965 and 1971 Indo Pak Wars , 1 Confirmed Kill and 1 Probable Kill. 
2.	Wg Cdr Alfred Tyrone Cooke, VrC, 1965 Indo Pakistan War, 1 Confirmed Kill and 1 Confirmed Write off. 
3.	Wg Cdr Farokh Jehangir Mehta , VrC, 1971 Indo Pakistan Wars, 1 Confirmed Kill and 1 Unconfirmed Kill. 
4.	Gp Capt Virendra Singh Pathania,VrC,1965 and 1971 Indo Pak War, 1 Confirmed Kill and 1 Unconfirmed Kill. 
5.	Air Vice Marshal P S Pingale, VrC, 1965 War, 1 Confirmed Kill and 1 Unconfirmed Kill. 


Wg Cdr Vinod Kumar Neb VrC and Bar	V K Neb was a young and an inexperienced Flying Officer in the 1965 War. flying for No.27 Sqn in Hunters, Neb was flying a dusk patrol with Flt Lt D N Rathore on 6 Sept 65, when an emergency call that the Halwara Airfield was under attack made them rush to base. about the same time, Two Sabres, were exiting out of the raid flown by Flt Lt Yunus Hussain and Flt Lt Cecil Choudary. As the Hunters jumped the Sabres, Neb latched onto Yunus Hussain's Hunter and destroyed it with a 1.5 Second cannon burst, earning his first Sabre Kill. 

Neb had to wait another Six Years till he could notch up another claim. Serving in the Eastern Sector with No.17 Sqn again flying Hunters, He was flying in a day attack on Dacca when his flight was intercepted by Sabres. in the ensuing fight, Neb claimed to have bought down another Sabre. This is yet to receive confirmation from Pakistani Sources.

It is notable that on this particular day, Hunter pilots had claimed to have shot down Four PAF Sabres, while the PAF admits losing Three Sabres in air combat. As details regarding time and circumstances are not available, it has not been able for me to establish who exactly was Neb's Victim if his second kill is confirmed.

Confirmed Kills : 1
Probable: 1	


Air Cmde Alfred Tyrone Cooke Vr C	A T Cooke's achievement is yet to gain acceptance in official Indian Air Force Circles as his feat came to light only in the recent years. Cooke was serving in the Eastern Sector during the 65 War with No.14 Sqn flying Hunters. Based at Kalaikunda, Cooke was flying a CAP along with Fg Off S C Mamgain, when ground Control directed them to intercept an incoming PAF Raid of Four Sabres. 

Right from the moment the aircombat began, Cooke does not remember specific details, only that he had fired at numerous PAF Sabres. It was only after the examination of his Gun Camera Film that his Kills have been documented.

Cooke hit and destroyed atleast One attacking Sabre, which was being flown by Fg Off Afzal Khan, who was killed in the crash. Subsequently his gun camera film shows him repeatedly hitting another Sabre that had a drop tank hang-up under one of its wings. This particular aircraft was flown by Flt Lt Tariq Habib Khan, who managed to fly back to base. Pakistani Sources mention that this particular aircraft was written off due to the damage it suffered.

Cooke also fired at a third aircraft, before exhausting his ammunition. The IAF credited Cooke with one Sabre Destroyed. and it remains the official score to this day.

Confirmed Kills : 1
Damaged , Write off: 1	


Wg Cdr Farokh Jehangir Mehta VrC Farokh Mehta was a Sqn Ldr during the 1971 War. Still suffering from the after effects of a low level ejection from the previous year, Mehta was put into combat readiness at short notice. flying Hunters as a part of the OTU, Mehta flew regular raids on Mauripur, Badin and targets in the Naya Chor area. 

On 13 December, on a raid to the Talhar airfield, his three Hunter formation was intercepted by Two Sabres . Mehta took a long range shot at Fg Off Naseem Nisar Ali Baig's Sabre and was surprised to observe that the Sabre lost speed and altitude at a rapid rate before it stuck the ground and exploded.

Two days later, Mehta was operating from Jaisalmer, when the OC Flying asked him to accompany him on a raid in a Hunter T. Mk 66. flying with Wg Cdr Mian Niranjan Singh in the first seat of the Hunter, and Fg Off R C Gosain in a single seat Hunter as thier number two, the pilots flew on to attack targets in the Naya Chor area. It was here, that a lone F-86 Sabre saw easy pickings and attacked thier aircraft. Both the pilots used their wits and flew the Hunter in such a way that the Sabre was seen spinning out of control and hit the ground. though the wreckage was never discovered, the IAF had credited Mehta with his Second Kill, to be shared by Mian Niranjan Singh.

Confirmed Kills : 1
Unconfirmed: 1	


Gp Capt Virendra Singh Pathania. VrC "Pat" Pathania was with No.23 Sqn during the 65 Conflict. flying on ops from Sep2, he was involved in quite a good number of aircombats, drawing blood on Sept 4th, when he fired at a Sabre that was exiting a melee. The pilot Fg Off N M Butt, ejected and was rescued. 

Pathania was awarded the Vir Chakra for his kill. Pathania went on to become the Commanding officer of No.18 flying bullets squadron, flying Gnats and based at Srinagar. under him were such men like Nirmaljit Singh Sekhon who later earned the Param Vir Chakra. Pathania was involved in a scramble early in the war on Dec 6th, when he took off with Fg Off Boppayya and intercepted an incoming raid of Four Sabres. In the subsequent battle, Pathania claimed shooting down a Sabre. This is yet to recieve confirmation through Pakistani Records.

Confirmed Kills : 1
Unconfirmed: 1	


Air Vice Marshal Prakash Sadashiv Rao Pingale VrC Flt Lt P S Pingale of No.7 Sqn was the pilot of the first Hawker Hunter lost in the 65 war, when he was shot down by Sqn Ldr Rafiqui over Halwara on Sep 6th. Pingale ejected safely and subsequently returned to operations inspite of the Back problems raised by the ejection. 

About a week later on Sept 15th, Pingale was scramble along with his wingman to intercept two Sabres over Tarn Tarn. Pingale shot down one Sabre, the pilot, Fg Off M Shaukat ejecting to become a prisoner and entangled with another flown by Sqn Ldr M M Alam.

Pingale's Vir Chakra Citation credits him with downing both the Sabres, though Pingale personally feels the second sabre got away. as is now known after going through Alam's exploits.

Confirmed Kills : 1
Unconfirmed: 1

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## fatman17

*Pakistani Air Force Pilot Honored With Quarter&#8217;s Top International Student Award*


Article By: Javier Chagoya 

Pakistan Air Force Wing Commander Lt. Col. Kashif Jamal Khan, a graduate of the university&#8217;s defense analysis program, has earned this past Spring Quarter&#8217;s top international student award. Each quarter, the Naval Postgraduate School honors a select international student for excellence in both academics and research. This past quarter, the honor, entitled the Outstanding Academic Achievement Award for International Students, went to Pakistani Air Force Wing Commander Lt. Col. Kashif Jamal (KJ) Khan, a graduate of the university&#8217;s defense analysis program.

His thesis, &#8220;Cutting the Links Between Drugs and Terrorists: Countering Major Terrorist-Financing Means,&#8221; tackles a critical topic in counterterrorism and counterinsurgency, focusing on the involvement of terrorist groups in drug trafficking as a source of income. A condensed version of the thesis has been accepted for publication in the August 2013 issue of the Combating Terrorism Exchange (CTX) quarterly journal. 

As a Wing Commander and a fighter pilot in the Pakistani Air Force, Khan is one of 3,000 pilots in his country, and has flown U.S., Chinese and French aircraft. Pakistan operates 400 combat aircraft as well as various transport and training aircraft.

Khan explains that he was pleasantly surprised when he was chosen to come to NPS.

&#8220;I had only heard about NPS before coming here through some of my seniors, but I had no idea how wonderful it was going to be. The quality time with my children and spouse were quite excellent,&#8221; said Khan.

The first in his family to serve in the Pakistani military, Khan says he has a deep appreciation for what he has learned while at NPS, and holds its faculty in high regard.

&#8220;My stay here at NPS has provided me experience and an enrichment of thought, which will always be a part of my professional and personal life,&#8221; he said. &#8220;I am sure the knowledge gained here will be a personal asset and a force multiplier for my service.

&#8220;I am looking forward to applying the knowledge gained here in my future assignments,&#8221; Khan continued. &#8220;I have learned many things at NPS, and am convinced that Pakistan should benefit maximum from them. It&#8217;s all the more important given the fast changing nature of war, and the marginalization of the conventional domain of warfare,&#8221; said Khan.

Khan&#8217;s future will include opportunities to teach and mentor future Pakistan Air Force personnel, a responsibility he should excel at given the qualities recalled by his faculty during class.

&#8220;Not only was KJ the best student that I had in the decision theory/game theory course, he was always willing to help other students and add insights to the course material. It was a pleasure to meet and work with KJ,&#8221; said Dr. Frank Giordano.

Associate Professor Dr. Michael Freeman, who evaluated Khan&#8217;s thesis for the award, recalled the same qualities in Khan&#8217;s ability to connect with others. &#8220;He was clearly one of the intellectual leaders of his cohort. Several times, I heard from his classmates that they wish they could have interacted more with KJ on projects and exercises to learn more from him,&#8221; said Freeman.

Senior Lecturer George Lober added that Khan was a remarkably intelligent, humble and self-directed scholar with a contagious sense of humor. &#8220;It has been an honor and a pleasure to know him,&#8221; he added.


A 20-year veteran of the Air Force, Khan says he has been stationed at many different Pakistan Air Force bases, including Air Headquarters. Khan&#8217;s hometown is Lahore, the capital of the Pakistani province of Punjab and the second largest city in the country.

Posted July 3, 2013

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## fatman17

*Where Eagles Dare*


A History of PAF Public School Sargodha


By Sqn Ldr M Shahid Hafeez


Genesis

In 1951, Air Vice Marshal Sir Richard Atcherley then Commander-in- Chief Royal Pakistan Air Force (C-in-C RPAF) suggested the Prime Minister of Pakistan Mr Liaquat Ali Khan and the Defence Minister Iskander Mirza that a "feeder school" be established to provide flight cadets for training at PAF Academy (then PAF College), Risalpur. He said that if a Pakistani boy could be given the same standard of education as his counter part in the West, he would make every bit as good an officer and pilot as any officer in the West could . Atcherley's idea was given an enthusiastic support and in 1952 the Defence Committee under the chairmanship of Liaquat Ali Khan approved the project. An agreement was signed with the Air Service Training Limited Hamble,South Hampton, UK to operate and manage the project for the first five years. The Board of Governors included the Defence Minister Iskander Mirza as the Chairman and C-in-C RPAF Air Vice Marshal Leslie William Cannon as the Deputy Chairman. The site selected for the project in Sargodha was known as "Dhup Sarhi" meaning "Sun Burnt". The project took off in December 1952 as the British contract staff including Principal and eight teachers flew from London in a K L M Charter plane. The plane suffered an unpleasant experience of crash landing in the Arabian Desert near Darain. Fortunately no one was hurt.


The Founder Principal

Mr Eric Sprawson was educated at Rugby School and at Jesus College, Cambridge before joining the Royal Air Force (RAF)as a Pilot. After retiring from RAF as a Group Captain he came to the subcontinent and joined the Indian Military Academy Dehra Dun as an Instructor. After the expiry of his contract at Dehra Dun, he joined the Chiefs College, Rajkot as the Principal. Being a retired Group Captain of Royal Air Force (RAF), he was called up in the later stage of second world war to serve as a bomber pilot. He was awarded the distinguished Flying Cross for his exceptional flying skills during the war. He was also awarded membership of the Royal Air Force Escapers Club, a club restricted to those who escape from enemy captivity. After the war was over he resumed his teaching practice at Rapton School England, and then went out to do some administrative work at Ben Ghazi. In 1952, he was selected by the Air Service Training Ltd Hamble to serve as the Principal, Royal Pakistan Air Force Public School Sargodha for a contract period of five years. He remained the founder Principal till the expiry of his contract on 24 December, 1957. He left the School for London . After a few months stay there , he joined his son in Italy . He died there and was buried in Italy.

The First Induction

In 1952, the first entry of 100 boys was selected from East and West Pakistan . Of the 100 chosen, 02 boys did not join the School. On the last day of February the first batch of new boys arrived. A large group came on the Chennab Express from Karachi . Others arrived in small groups from other places and 28 came by Bristol Freighter aircraft from East Pakistan .The course beginning from class VII was to be culminated in Senior Cambridge after 5 years from the Overseas Cambridge University, UK. However, the boys were allowed to opt for the National System of Education culminating in Matriculation from Rawalpindi Board. It was decided that the first three entries would not be bonded to join PAF. The present day School Sick Quarters (SSQ) served as the first Academic Block. 

The Odeon Block

Two boarding houses were established in the Odeon Block with the names Tempest and Fury. These were two fighter-bomber aircraft, which then equipped the Royal Pakistan Air Force Bases in Pakistan. A total of 47 boys were allotted the Tempest House on the ground floor, while 51 were allotted the Fury House on the upper floor and two rooms on the ground floor. Mr Godfrey Stott took over as Housemaster Tempest and Mr George Douglas Hamilton as Housemaster Fury House. On 01 March, 1953, Mr G Stott became the Deputy Headmaster of the School, handing over the Tempest House to Mr J C Buckman. Another change took place when Mr Hamilton handed over the Fury House to Mr Kearsley due to prolonged illness. Mr Kearsley, however, left in the summer of 1954, handing over Fury House to Mr Hamilton again. On 30 December, 1954 Mr Hamilton left the school, handing over the Fury House to Harold Bertie Gilbert for some months. In August, 1955 Mr M J Power took over the Fury House from Mr Gilbert. 

The Marble Plaque

On 16 December, 1953, a Speech Day was held at the School. The Guest of Honour, His Excellency Mian Ameen-ud-Din, the Governor of Punjab unveiled a marble plaque on the occasion that commemorated the foundation of the Royal Pakistan Air Force Public School, Sargodha. Air Marshal Sir Hugh Walmsley of the Royal Air Force and high officials of Pakistan Air Force and Army attended the ceremony. The plaque now decorates a wall of the School Headquarters. 

The Chigwell Shield

In 1953 certain friends of Chigwell School, where Mr. Stott had been a Housemaster before coming to Sargodha got together and as a gesture of goodwill sent a challenge shield for all Inter House games activities. The shield carries the Sargodha badge in the top left hand (heraldically the position of the honour) and the Chigwell badge in the right top corner; the latter is the joint coat of arms of an Archbishop of York and the Founder of Chigwell School and dates from 1629, This shield was won first in 1954 by Tempest and Fury Houses together. When the school resumed its old public school role in 1990, the Chigwell Trophy was reserved for Senior Sports. Tempest House was the first to win the shield after revival. Shahzad Nasar (1319-T) "the Best Sportsman of the Year" received it from the then Commandant Air Cdre Syed Imtiaz Hyder (457-T). 

The New Houses
In 1955, four residential blocks were constructed at the School. Two blocks carried the same old names, Fury and Tempest. The other two blocks were given the names Attacker and Sabre.Fury House shed half its members to occupy Attacter while Tempest shed half its members to Sabre. Mr Mr A W Lawrence and Mr. I W G Cameron took over as Housemasters Attacker and Sabre respectively. 

The Caretaker Principal

The first Pakistani Commander-in-Chief (C-in-C) of Pakistan Air Force (PAF), Air Marshal Asghar Khan, chose Mr Hugh Catchpole to succeed Mr Sprawson. The C-in-C happened to be an old student of Mr. Catchpole from Prince of Wales' Royal Indian Military College, Dehra Dun. Mr Catchpole , however , could not take over immediately for he was still serving as the Principal Cadet College, Hasan Abdal . Therefore, Mr G Stott, the then School Headmaster was appointed as the caretaker Principal. He continued to fill this position till 19 February, 1958, and then went to join PAF Public School, Lower Topa as the Principal. 

Mr Hugh Catchpole Arrives

Mr Hugh Catchpole was born on 26 May, 1907, at Ipswich, a small town of a pretty rural county, Suffolk in England. He did his Masters in History from Oxford University. Before starting his career as a teacher he did some flying in the civil and played cricket for the Suffolk County Eleven. His enviable career in education spanned seven decades in the Subcontinent. He joined Prince of Wales' Royal Indian Military College, Dehra Dun (now Rashtriya Indian Military College (RIMC) in 1928 as an Assistant Master and went on to become the Principal on 01 October, 1948. He stayed back at RIMC even after independence till his contract expired in 1954. 

The first Pakistani Air Chief, Air Marshal Asghar Khan and his successor Air Marshal Nur Khan had been his students at RIMC. They requested him to come to Pakistan and become the founder Principal of Cadet College Hasan Abdal. He was still at Hasan Abdal when Air Marshal Asghar Khan handpicked him to join PAF Public School Sarghoda as Principal, in 1958. He stayed there till 1967 and then joined Abbottabad Public School as Head of English Department, a post he held till his very last. He died at the age of 90, on 01 February, 1997, at Combined Military Hospital, Rawalpindi. His funeral service held at Christ Church of Pakistan, Rawalpindi was attended by Rimcollians, Abdalians, Sargodhians, and Abbotonians, whose lives he had touched and profoundly transformed. His body was taken for burial to Cadet College Hasan Abdal in accordance to his will. When his body was being lowered into the grave, three buglers of the Pakistan Army sounded the Last Post. Mr Catchpole was buried with such honours as would be the envy of many.

Besides being an extraordinary educationist, Mr Catchpole was a humanist and philanthropist, who remained a bachelor throughout his life and financed many students' education with his scholarship funds in England, India and Pakistan. In his will he wished to donate all balances of his account to the institutions he had been associated with. Accordingly, all his life savings amounting to more than Rs.8 millions were distributed among Ipswich School, Suffolk, UK, Rashtriya Indian Military College Dehra Dun, Cadet College Hasan Abdal, PAF Public School Sargodha, and Abbottabad Public Schoo. Just 02 months before he died, he had to inaugurate a guest house named after him at Rashtriya Indian Military College, Dehra Dun. He had given a generous endowment of Rs.1.5 million for the guest house and planned to shift there after retiring from Abbotabad Public School. However, life did not allow him to do so.

Honours of Mr Hugh Catchpole
Mr Hugh Catchpole was honoured twice by Her Majesty the Queen Elizabeth the Second (full name Elizabeth Alexandra Mary) of the United Kingdom. On 01 January, 1971, he was awarded the Order of the British Empire (OBE). The British High Commissioner in Pakistan Sir Mac Rae did the honours. On 31 December, 1980, the Queen awarded him Commander's Badge of the Order of the British Empire (CBE) also called the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire. On 22 July, 1981, Mr Hugh Catchpole went to Buckingham Palace to receive it personally from Her Majesty the Queen. His niece Helen Catchpole and her son Richard Dodwell accompanied him. 

On 23 March, 1979, the President of Pakistan General Muhammad Zia-ul-Haq conferred upon Mr Catchpole the award of "Sitara-i-Imtiaz" for his meritorious services in the field of education. Lieutenant General Fazle Haq (Late), his student from RIMC who was then Martial Law Administrator (Governor) NWFP (now Khyber Pakhtonkhwa) did the honours in an investiture ceremony held at Abbotabad Public School.

On 15 June, 2007, the President of Pakistan General Pervez Musharraf conferred upon Mr Catchpole the highest civil award of Pakistan "Hilal-i-Imtiaz" posthumous for his incomparable, selfless and single minded dedication to the cause of quality education in Pakistan. The award was received by his great nephew Mr William Catchpole.

Birth Centenary of a Legend (1907-2007)

The year 2007 marked the birth centenary of the legendary British teacher Mr Hugh Catchpole. On 26 May, 2007, Pakistan Post Office issued a commemorative stamp showing Mr Catchpole wearing "Sitara-i-Imtiaz" and "Commander's Badge of the Order of the British Empire". Same day a documentary "The Life and Times of Hugh Catchpole" directed and produced by Mr Mohammad Shafiq Sultan was also aired by the Pakistan Television. The documentary traced the life of Mr Catchpole through the words and memories of his students. Mr Wayne Christopher Hignett the then Principal PAF Public School Sargodha played Mr Catchpole in the documentary. 

Four-day centenary celebrations were also held at Cadet College, Hasan Abdal from 11 to 14 June 2007. His student from PAF Public School Sargodha, Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee General Ehsan-ul-Haq inaugurated the celebrations. On the occasion, a marble bust of Catchpole was unveiled; and a coffee table book "Hugh Catchpole of the Subcontinent"; written by his student from RIMC Commander (Retd) Arun Prakash Bhattacharya was released. 

An Inspiration Unlimited 
Hugh Cathpole's greatest contribution to the subcontinent is his students who went on to become high achievers in their respective professions. His students are spread across three nations: Pakistan, Bangladesh and India. Together they take pride in calling themselves "Catchpolians". The list of his old students reads like who's who of the defence forces of their countries. 
In Pakistan his students from PAF Public School Sargodha include: General Ehsan ul Haq, Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee (2004 - 2007), General Ahsan Saleem Hyat, Vice Chief of Army Staff (2004 - 2007), and two Air Chiefs, Air Chief Marshals Kaleem Saadat (18 March 2003 - 18 March 2006) and Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed (18 March 2006 - 18 March 2009. In Bangladesh too General Moeen Uddin Ahmed, Chief of Army Staff (15 June 2005 - 15 June 2009) and three Air Chiefs: Air Vice Marshals Sultan Mehmood (23 July 1982 - 22 July 1987), Rafiqul Islam (04 June 2001 - 07 April 2002) and Fakhrul Azam (08 April 2002 - 07 April 2007) had been his students at PAF Public School Sargodha.

It is difficult to make out who was more proud; the students of Catchpole for being taught by him or Catchpole, for having taught boys who later on became so successful. Whatever may be the case, it is obvious that Hugh Catchpole was and would remain an inspiration unlimited. 

Glider Training Starts

In 1960, the School formed No 6 Wing of Shaheen Air Training Corps (SATC) at PAF Base, Sargodha to train the students in gliding. Principal PAF Public School Sargodha Mr Hugh Catchpole was appointed the first Officer Commanding (OC) of the Wing. The glider instructors appointed were Flt Lt M I Beg and Flt Sgt Zahoor. 04 gliders were received from PAF Academy, Risalpur. 

Former Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committeee (CJSC) General Ehsan-ul-Haq always wore the "Glider Badge " on his uniform which he earned at PAF Public School, Sargodha. On 19 September, 2007 he paid his last official visit to the institution as CJSC. In his lively, informal chat with the young Sargodhians he said: "It took lots of gut to fly those gliders."

In fact the gliders used in sixtees were essentially human-powered aircraft (HAC). The crew comprised of three: One pilot; who would sit with joystick held with both hands and feet set on pedals; and two assistants; who would push the glider to add thrust while the pilot propelled with his legs. 

Those gliders never took off under the pilot's pedal-power alone. An additional thrust by the assisting crew was always required. After the glider had lost touch with the ground the assistants would drop behind. However, the pilot would continue propelling with his legs while pulling on the wings to attain a reasonable height and experience lift from thermals, the rising air currents. The pilot had to do it fast enough to fly. It was as tough as riding a bicycle up a steep hill. Many would land physically exhausted. 

Those fully human-powered flights were indeed a test of pilot's strength and stamina. Besides it required a good knowledge of aerodynamics to control the aircraft. The first batch of students successfully completing Glider Training was awarded Glider Badges by the C-in-C PAF Air Mrshal Asghar Khan on the Founder's day held on 18 December, 1960.

The C-in-C attends the Boxing Final

On 16 December, 1963, C-in-C PAF, Air Marshal Asghar Khan's visit to Sargodha Base coincided with the Inter House Boxing Final at the School. Mr. Catchpole invited the C-in-C to be the chief guest. The C-in-C consented to grace the occasion. He witnessed the final and presented cups to the winners. Tempest House won the competition. 


The Indo Pak War-1965
In September 1965, the historical event of the Indo-Pak War took place. Hence, the School was closed down for about six weeks. The boys from the then East Pakistan and remote areas of West Pakistan were evacuated to Lower Topa and the rest dispersed to their homes. During the 18-day war (from 6 to 23 September), the Indian Air Force carried out 59 air raids on PAF Base Sargodha. However, the school campus, despite being right adjacent to the base, suffered no damage except a few broken windows. 

The Gallant Sargodhians
A considerable number of Sargodhians participated as pilots in the 1965 war against India. Following is a brief account of those who won the coveted Sitara-i-Jurat for their gallantry in air combat. 

Flt Lt Mohammad Tariq Habib Khan (118-T)

He was one of the pilots who struck the enemy airfield at Kalaikunda in the first strike mission against India from East Pakistan . In one of the operations he engaged 4 Indian Air Force Hunters thus diverting their attention from the PAF aircraft who were attacking the enemy airfield. Later, he himself managed to evade the Indian aircraft and return home safely in a crippled aircraft. During different operations, he destroyed three Canberras and one C-119 on the ground and one Hunter in the air-to-air dogfight. He was awarded Sitara-i-Jurat by the Commander in Chief, PAF Air Marshal Nur Khan. Flt Lt Tariq Habib was the youngest recepient of Sitara-i-Jurat in 1965 war. 

Flt Lt Arshad Sami Khan (136-F)

He flew the highest number of combat missions during the 1965 war with India. His enthusiasm and aggressiveness was a source of inspiration for the other pilots. He never looked tired or apprehensive against heavy odds. Inflicting maximum damage to the enemy was his only objective. He was credited with one aircraft, 2 heavy guns, 15 tanks and 22 vehicles destroyed and another 8 tanks and 19 vehicles damaged. For his exemplary courage and determination and outstanding devotion to duty he was awarded Sitara-i-Jurat by the President of Pakistan, Field Marshal M Ayub Khan. 

Flt Lt Saif-ul-Azam (147-A)

He flew 12 ground attack missions against the enemy in Sialkot , Wagah and Kasur sectors. His will to destroy the enemy in face of heavy fire and in total disregard of his personal safety earned him deep appreciation of Pakistan Army. On 19th of September,1965 in spite of having been separated from his formation and bad radio communication, he shot down an Indian Gnat and returned to the base safely. For his exceptional flying skills, courage and outstanding devotion to duty he was awarded Sitar-i-Jurat by the President of Pakistan, Field Marshal M Ayub Khan. 

It is worth mentioning that none of Sargodhians lost his life during the September, 1965, war. 

The School Reopens
The School re-opened on 20 October, 1965. The Founder's Day was held on 26 February, 1966, and for the first time no guests were invited except the Risalpur Cadets. They also could not attend the function due to non-availability of service aircraft. The new C-in-C PAF Air Marshal Nur Khan, another student of Mr Catchpole from RIMC, graced the occasion as the Guest of Honour. In his address, the Chief Guest thanked the Principal for inviting him on the occasion, and particularly mentioned contribution of the Old Sargodhians in the September War. He said: You all here have a fine tradition to live upto... The C-in-C also promised to arrange funds for the construction of a mosque at the School. 

The Beginning of a New Era 

The year 1967 was unique in more than one respect. It marked a new era in the history of the School. The name was changed from PAF Public School to PAF College Sargodha. The four houses Tempest, Fury, Attacker and Sabre were also renamed as Younus, Iqbal, Munir and Rafiqui respectively after the names of our great air warriors who laid down their lives in the defence of their motherland during the 1965 War. The name of the School magazine was also changed from "The Sargodhian" to "Shahbaz". A major development was the appointment of the first Pakistani Principal, Mr Abdul Rehman Qureshi. Mr Catchpole left the school after meritorious service of nine and a half years to join Abbotabad Public School as Head of English Department. Now the whole staff of PAF College Sargodha comprised Pakistani teachers. Another transition took place as the Senior Cambridge was replaced by the National System of Education. The School was affiliated with the Board of Intermediate & Secondary Education, Rawalpindi. 

Topians join Sargodha
In August, 1967, the Lower Topa School was also amalgamated into PAF Public School Sargodha. The Topians were accommodated in the Odeon Block and they formed Alam and Allauddin houses. Alam House was named after the living legend of September 1965 War, Wing Commander Mohammad Mahmood Alam (SJ with Bar) who shot down five Indian Hunters in less than a minute, a feat unprecedented and unsurpassed in the history of air warfare. Allaudin House was named after the great air warrior, Squadron Leader Allauddin Ahmed "Butch"(SJ) who laid down his life in the line of duty on 13 September, 1965 while blasting an Indian ammunition train at Gurdaspur. The first floor of the Odeon Block formed Alam House and the ground floor formed Allauddin House. 

Degree Classes start
The College continued to function as a Public School until in 1973. When the requirement at PAF Academy, Risalpur were raised to the degree level; the College started functioning as a Degree College. The College started imparting full military training to the aviation cadets of both the GD (P) and Engineering branches, which was followed by the flying training phase at PAF Academy , Risalpur. However, in 1985, BSc classes were shifted to Risalpur, and once again only FSc classes were conducted at the College. The institution, despite its changed role, continued grooming young boys into men of splendid character and merit. Mr Rehman Quraishi, the Principal, left no stone unturned in keeping the good name and repute of the institution aloft. He made a brave and successful effort to bring military discipline in consonance with the academic discipline. He left the College in January, 1984. Soon after his departure from Sargodha, he took the charge of Aitchison College, Lahore as Principal. He was followed by Gp Capt C M. Latif, Air Cdre M Akram Lodhi and Gp Capt (later Air Cdre) Fareed Ali Shah respectively. The latter was made the first Commandant of the institution in December, 1987. With the departure of Air Cdre M Akram Lodhi the designation of the Principal was kept in abeyance. 

Revival of the Public School System

In 1990, a review of the PAF intake requirements was made, which highlighted the excellent contributions made by this College as a public school. It was, therefore, decided to revive the institution to its previous role of a public school, imparting education from class VIII to FSc to young boys who would join the PAF as fighter pilots and Aeronautical Engineers, and whose expenses would be borne by the PAF. Hence in 1990, the 94th GD (P) and 39 CAE courses became the last entries of aviation cadets to pass through PAF College Sargodha, to join PAF Academy Risalpur for further training.

On reopening of the College as a public school, all the eight student houses were renamed as Attacker, Falcon, Fury, Halifax , Mirage, Sabre, Starfighter, and Tempest. Two entries of 100 students each were inducted in the 8th and 9th classes in January, 1991.The entries were numbered as 23rd and 24th to mark continuation with 22nd, the last entry before transition. Later, the strength of the College was raised to 440. 

Air Cdre Fareed Ali Shah (442-T), a former Sargodhian, was appointed as the Commandant to supervise the transition of PAF College Sargodha from a Degree Science College to a typical Public School from December 1987 to April 1991.He was followed by Air Cdre Bilal Ahmad Khan (461-F) from April 1991 to January 1993, and later by Air Cdre Imtiaz Hyder (457-T) from January 1993 to November 1993. 

To achieve the objective of running PAF College Sargodha on the lines of a Public School system meeting the requirements of the military training doctrine, the Air Headquarters decided to appoint a very senior Sargodhian AVM (Retd) Raja Aftab Iqbal (119-F ) as Commandant of PAF College Sargodha. He took charge in November 1993 and continued to serve for a record period of eight years till November, 2001. During this time a number of projects were completed, providing the most modern training aids and implements for the College. These new additions included the latest WICOM language laboratory, a modern computer laboratory, an audio-visual room equipped with a multimedia projector, a well-built gymnasium and construction of new buildings for two student houses. 

AVM (Retd) Raja Aftab Iqbal left the College in November 2001. His successor, another Sargodhian, Air Cdre (Retd) M Abdul Qadir Sargaana (T374-F), took over as Commandant in November, 2001. But soon the designation of Head of the Institution was renamed as the Principal. The present designation is more in keeping with the ethos of a Public School. The institution also resumed its old name of PAF Public School Sargodha. This name is more compatible with its envisaged role: the role of taking good care of the mental and physical growth of young shaheens, whose requirement at this stage is more of a humanistic education than of military regimentation . 

Glider Training Resumes 

Glider Training was resumed in 1993 by the then Commandant PAF College, Sargodha Air vice Marshal (Retd) Raja Aftab Iqbal. The functional control of Glider Training remained with the Commandant however; the operational control was shifted to OC No.38 Wing PAF Base, Sargodha. 

The major boost was the induction of engine powered gliders. 04 SF-25 C Falke (SF: Manufacturer, Scheibe Flugzeugbau Falke: English, Falcon) German motor gliders were shifted from PAF Academy Risalpur to PAF Base, Sargodha. Of these Tail No 44143 needed major repair and was never used for training purposes. The 03 serviceable gliders Tail No 44140, Tail No 44141, Tail No 44142 were parked in Mirage periodic hangers. 

SF-25 C Falke was a state of the art sail plane of its time. It had a forward fuselage with a large canopy and a two bladed propeller. It was a two-seat glider with dual control for the crew. Its 100 hp Rotax 912 S engine was fitted in its nose, and had an electric starter. Its nose wheel was almost double the size of tail wheel. It measured 7.6 m in length, weighed 335 Kg when empty, and had a wingspan of 15.33 m.

As regards its performance SF-25 C Falke could reach upto a speed of 190 km/h and fly upto 3 hours 30 minutes in a stretch. Its climb rate was 2 m/s and sink rate 1 m/s. Its maximum glide ratio was 22.

Gliding was introduced to the students of FSc Classes only. First year students were given theory classes only while second year students were given theory plus flying classes. All sorties were supervised by the Glider Instructor. No solo flying was given. Students were trained to do pre and post flight inspections and taxi out procedures. They were also given controls in air to develop a feel of being air born. However, take offs and landings were performed by the Glider Instructor himself.

Gliding was fun in the hectic routine of the School. Students would always talk lavishly about it on their return from the Base. By the end of 2001, 688 students had done glider training. But then being an old vintage glider, SF 25 C started giving recurrent maintenance problems. Eventually, it was decided that the glider training should be discontinued till the new gliders are purchased.


School History Room

The School History Room was the brainchild of AVM (Retd) Raja Aftab Iqbal who thought of preserving the glorious past of the School and highlighting the achievements of old and young Sargodhians. On 12 November, 1998, Sqn Ldr M Shahid Hafeez was appointed the Officer Incharge School History Project. He was assigned to compile the history of the School in association with Stenographer (Retd) Abdul Rashid, the first Pakistani employed at the School in 1953. Additionally, he was assigned to oversee the necessary renovation to build a History Room in the Hobbies Club. Two rooms were merged to create space, and show cases were built in the walls to display the assets. Old magazines and Newsletters of Royal Pakistan Air Force Public School times were brought in. Some shields and trophies including Chigwell Shield were also added to the Room. Besides, briefs of Commandants and Principals of the School, and some "Historical Firsts" were collected and engraved on steel plates to decorate the walls of History Room. 

To further enrich the Room, letters were written to the concerned agencies, and retired and serving personnel of armed forces and civil service. Many of them responded positively and resultantly a lot of information was gathered. In this connection Sqn Ldr Shahid was also sent to attend Platinum Jubilee Celebrations of Military College, Jhelum (MCJ) from 19 to 20 November, 2000. 

The visit of MCJ Museum was made part of the celebrations. On his return from MCJ Sqn Ldr Shahid brought home some new 
ideas for displaying the historical assets. He suggested that the History Room may be expanded and divided into galleries for displaying various eras of the School on the pattern of MCJ Museum.

The first major contribution to the History Room came from the then Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee Air Chief Marshal Farooq Feroze Khan (69-Fury). He sent his working uniform and loads of mementos and souvenirs which were presented to him by services and organizations inland and outside the country. He also sent his signed photograph in uniform for the History Room. Things kept pouring in and soon the History Room was packed to the capacity. Hence, it was decided that the History Room should be shifted to the Academic Block and expanded to accomodate ever increasing assets. Meanwhile Change of Command took place and Air Cdre (Retd) Abdul Qadir Sargaana took over as Principal in November, 2001. The decision of shifting and expanding the History Room was held in abeyance. 

On 16 June, 2004, Sqn Ldr Shahid handed over the School History Room to Flight Lieutenant (now Squadron Leader) Sabahat Batool. It goes to her credit that she got the venue of History Room changed from Hobbies Club to the Academic Block. The Old Mathematics Lab was transformed with beautiful layout of glass showcases to serve the purpose. All important documents and memorable items of prominent Sargodhians were shifted. Now visit of the School History Room by dignitaries was a made a regular feature. 

During the tenure of Air Cdre (Retd) Tayyab Naeem Akhtar, the School History Room was further expanded by merging the old Biology Lab and adjacent room. On Parents' Day held on 19 February, 2011, the expanded History Room was inaugurated by Chief of the Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman.

In the recent years some unique souvenirs have been added to the Room like uniforms of former Chief of the Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Kaleem Saadat (697-Fury), Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee General Ehsan-ul-Haq (589-Fury) and IG Police, Bangladesh; Commemorative sword presented by General Ehsan and a dagger presented by the former Vice Chief of Army Staff General Ahsan Salim Hyat (447-Sabre) are also showcased there. Arun Prakash, the celebrated writer from India during his second visit to the School presented his coffee table book "Hugh Catchpole of the Subcontinent". The accompanying Commandant, Rashtria Indian Military College, Dehradun, Colonel Prem Parkash presented his College Crest to the School. All these souvenirs are on display in the History Room. 

The School Auditorium Renamed
After the Kohat tragedy, it was named after Air Chief Marshal Mushaf Ali Mir Shaheed and was called Mushaf Hall. 

The Golden Jubilee Monument

PAF Public School Sargodha completed its 50 years in 2003. To commemorate this landmark achievement a monument was erected at the School. The site selected was exactly where the millinium court of basketball used to be: adjacent to the Canteen. The Civil Works Organization (CWO) under the able guidance of Lieutenant General Khalid Ahmed Kidwai (615-S) and Begum Lubna Kidwai completed the project. Inauguration ceremony of the monument was made part of the Golden Jubilee Celebrations held from 11 to 13 October, 2003. 

On 11 October 2003, the President of Pakistan, General Pervez Musharaf unveiled the inauguration plaque. The School Head Boy, Mohsin Javed, recited few verses from Holy Quran and offered Dua on the occassion.

The Golden Jubilee Monument is a superb piece of architecture erected in an exotic landscape. Inspiration of the monument comes from the Quranic Verse (Surah Ar-Rum : Verse 30)urging man to mould himself in the nature of Allah. The verse set in Thatta stone against the fountain wall gives a deeper meaning to the School's motto "Aim High". The central art piece designed by world renowned sculptor, Anjum Ayaz, symbolizes the School's motto with a pen (Qalam) and a bird in flight. The central space is an octagon depicting the eight Houses of the School. 

The New Gate of the School

On 04 November,2004, Air Cdre(Rtd) M Abdul Qadir Sargaana, Principal PAF Public School Sargodha, inaugrated the new impressive gate of the School. The new entrance has given a majestic look to the institution. It is dual gate which provide one way movement for incoming and outgoing vehicular traffic. A visitors' room and provision of parking space near the security staff office have also been made available. A large Punjgula(five lamps) has been errected in front of the gate to provide spectacular view in the night. The 40th Entry of Sargodhians was the first entry to cross the gate in April, 2007. 

Revival of the Brotherly Bond
On 22 August, 2005, Shahir Allawi (2777-M), Ahmed Inan Mussadaque (2778-Hf) and Tahrim Ishrak (2779-M) from the brotherly country Bangladesh rewrote history by joining the School with the 38th Entry. It was after the lapse of 40 years that some students from Bangladesh had joined the School. The idea was floated by Air Cdre (Retd) Moinul Islam (86-S)who was leading Bangladesh Chapter of Sargodhians during Golden Jubilee Celebrations of the School.

Since Bangladesh has a considerable number of illustrious Sargodhians who have been serving their motherland at different key posts, it was thought prudent to reconnect with the School and bring in fresh blood in the depleting line of distinguished Sargodhians. The School on its part was only too willing to accept the challenge. The three cubs of Bengal were received warmly; Every young Sargodhian thought it to be a religious duty to welcome the happy entry of their brothers from Bangladesh.
So far two batches of Bangladeshi students have graduated from the School. The highest appointment held by any Bangladeshi student so far is the Deputy Head Boy. That was Atiqur Rehman (2865-Attacker, 39th Entry) who belonged to the writer's House, Attacker.

Bangladesh Air Chief Visits

On 11 September, 2005, Chief of the Air Staff, Bangladesh Air Force, Air Marshal Fakhrul Azam visited his almamter. The young Fakhrul Azam (694-Tempest) left the School after completing his Senior Cambridge in 1965. A dashing gentleman wh Mr Catchpole, the then Principal, thought was "a man of character and personality". True to his Principal's insight, he persued a brilliant career and rose to the status of Air Chief. 

To relive the cherished memories of his golden age, he visited his House, Tempest. Later on he had tea with the School at the School Mess where he mixed with the young Sargodhians and exchanged pleasantries with them. He aslo had a detailed discussion with the newly arrived Bangladeshi students and boasted them to perform well. The writer had the honour to present the visiting dignitary his digitally improved photograph of his School days.

South African Air Chief Visits

Lieutenant General Carlo Gagiano, Chief of the Air Force, South Africa visited PAF Public School, Sargodha on 12 November, 2005. The distinguished visitor was given a detailed briefing by the Principal Air Cdre (Retd) Abdul Qadir Sargaana and taken for a thorough round of the institution. The honourable guest told the Principal that they are exploring the possibilities of establishing a similar sort of institution in South Africa to tap and nourish young South African talent. He expressed that he was taking with him a very pleasant and useful impression of an efficient set up of the School. 

Warmth of Mushaira at the School
The first Mushaira after revival of the School was held in Mushaf Hall on 17 December, 2006. The Mushaira started with traditional kindling of the candle by famous Urdu poet, Amjad Islam Amjad. At the jam-packed Mushaf Hall of the School, the first session belonged to the young students who came up with their youthful passion and bagged lots of appreciation for their creatively poetic flights. Umair (2516-S), Zahid (2542-A) and Adnan (2608-M) were the lucky ones to recite their poems in front of the big wigs of Urdu poetry. In the second session, the staff members of the School presented their creative efforts.The third session was of the local poets from Sargodha. The fourth and last session of reciting poetry belonged to the guest poets. It was a fascinating mix of serious and seriously humourous verse. Famed for the vividly pleasing humour, Khalid Masood and Dr Inamul Haq Javaid brought tears of laughter to the wildly responsive audience's eyes. Finally, Amjad Islam Amjad gave befitting climax to the night with his peculiar mesmerizing style of reciting poetry. 

Rimcollians Visit the School
On 17 June, 2007, on their way back to India, the students of Rashtriya Indian Military College, Dehradun (known as Rimcollians) along with their Principal and some of the staff paid a brief visit to PAF Public School Sargodha. The Old Rimcollian and writer of the book "Hugh Catchpole of the Sub Continent" Mr Arun Prakash accompanied. The contingent was in Pakistan in connection with Mr Hugh Catchpole's Centenary Celebrations held at Cadet College Hassan Abdal. 

The Rimcollians were housed in Mirage House where they interacted with young Sargodhians. Surprisingly, both the sides found many aspects of their training and set up common. As Arun Parkash tells us: "I have come to the conclusion that the school in Uttarkhand has a veritable twin across the border in the plains of West Punjab. The only perceptible difference apparently is that buildings in PAF Public School Sargodha are red and that the campus reverberated with sounds of screaming jets in the air, whereas those in Rashtria Indian Military College, Dehradun are white and all one gets to hear are birdsongs every where one goes. Of course when jets fall silent birds come alive in Sargodha too." 

Next day in the morning, the contingent was given a circular round of the campus and briefed about different departments of the School. The celebrated writer, Arun Prakash, presented his Coffee Table Book, "Hugh Catchpole of the Subcontinent" to the School. The Principals of the two institutions, also, exchanged souvenirs. With a hope to see more of each other in future, the visitors were seen off warmly. 

Tradition of British Principal Reborn

With the departure of Air Cdre (Retd) M Abdul Qadir Sargaana, the tradition of British Principal at PAF Public School Sargodha was reborn. Mr Wayne Christopher Hignett arrived on 18 March, 2007. Born in 1956 in Liverpool, Mr Hignett gained his first teaching qualification from the University of Sussex in 1979. He later studied for his qualification to be a Principal at the University of Liverpool. In addition, he gained an MBA in Information Technology from University of Central Lancashire (UCLan). Mr Hignett had a vast experience of teaching in Britain and elsewhere. He had taught briefly in Turkey before gaining promotion to a school in Saudi Arabia where he taught children of the Saudi royal family. 

Early Departure of the British Principal
Mr Hignett had to leave in December, 2010. However, a sudden change took place and Air Cdre (Retd) Tayyab Naeem Akhtar, SI (M) was appointed the Principal, PAF Public School Sargodha on 01 November, 2009. Like Mr Catchpole, he was handpicked for the School by the Air Headquarters while still serving as the Principal Cadet College Hasan Abdal. Air Cdre (Retd) Tayyab matriculated from our sister institution PAF Public School Lower Topa, Muree in 1964. He did his FSc Pre-Engineering from the reputed Government College Lahore and then joined GD(P) branch of PAF on 30 June, 1968. He had been an accomplished fighter pilot, who had flown almost all the aircraft held on the inventory of PAF including F-16.

Oratory Reverberates the School
The oratory serves as a light, a guide to those who cannot themselves make sense of the chaos and look to a leader to point the way. Greeks considered the mastery of oratory an essential part of being a well-rounded man. They considered it the highest art which encompassed all other disciplines. They used it to portray their noblest sentiments, stir passions and emotions, and inspire virtuous actions. In order to ignite a desire for learning the art of oratory in young Sargodhians an All Pakistan Declamation Contest (APDC) was held on 10 November 2010 after a break of more than 20 years.

The APDC was a mega event that involved a lot of planning and ground work. Different committees were set up with specific tasks assigned to them. A grand looking panaflex replica of one of the paintings of great aviation artist of Pakistan Air Force (PAF), Group Captain (Retd) Hussaini, was prepared to adorn the entire backstage and the insignias of participating institutions were placed symmetrically to decorate the front walls of the stage. The School played host to the representatives of 16 distinguished institutions from all over Pakistan. Attacker House being the School Declamation Champions for the year 2010-2011 was given the honour to conduct the English and Urdu round of speeches. Muhammad Umer (2834-A) conducted the English round whereas Muhammad Waleed Shams (2782-A)conducted the Urdu round. 

There were moments of great oratory that had an appreciative audience clapping like thunder. Military College Jhelum lifted the trophy while PAF Academy Risalpur emerged the runners up. Air Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt, HI (M), TBt, Vice Chief of the Air Staff graced the occasion as the Chief Guest. He encouraged the venture and hoped that the tradition would continue. 

The Petticoat Government

Flight Lieutenant (now Squadron Leader) Azra Malik went into the History of the School when she was assigned the additional duty of the Assistant Housemaster, Starfighter House with effect from 23 September, 2004. The land mark appointment opened new horizons for the lady officers in the School.On 01 February, 2011, Flight Lieuteant Rehana Alam (now Squadron Leader)took over as Assistant Housemaster, Halifax House. 

A Distinction
PAF Public School , Sargodha houses, grooms and produces modest people who believe that action speaks louder than words. At ISSB the School has the highest rate of selection amongst the leading cadet colleges of the country. At the Academy, Sargodhians have outshone others by achieving maximum top positions, prizes, trophies and swords of honour. Also they hold key appointments in the cadets' hierarchy. The ones who fail to make it to the PAF Academy prove themselves to be an excellent breed of men wherever they go. Sargodhians have made their presence felt at prestigious institutions like the GIKI, NUST, UET, PMA, etc. Hearing about their continued story of success gives a supreme satisfaction to the dedicated staff who maintain and inspire an academically competitive environment at the School. The excellence of Sargodhians will always be credited to this rare breed of teachers.

Illustrious Students
Air Chief Marshal Farooq Feroze Khan, NI(M), SBt enjoys the unique honour of being the first Sargodhian to become a four star General during his career in the PAF. Besides being the Chief of the Air Staff from 1991 to 1994, he also rose to the position of the Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee (CJCSC). In this capacity, he served from 1994 to 1997. To show his affiliation with PAF Public School Sargodha, after retiring from the prestigious post of CJCSC, he presented his uniform to the School as a souvenir to be kept in the History Room of PAF Public School Sargodha.

On 19 March 2003, another Sargodhian, Air Chief Marshal Kaleem Saadat (697-F), joined the galaxy of four-stars and became Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force. On 20 March, 2006, Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed (767-F) became the third Furian to have reached the status of Chief of the Air Staff. Air Marshals Masood Hatif, Shafique Haider, Aliuddin, Shahid Zulfiqar, Saeed Anwar, Pervez Akhtar Nawaz, Sarfaraz Arshad Toor, Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed, Arif Pervaiz, Masood Akhtar, Raashid Kaleem, Hifazat Ullah Khan and Tahir Rafique Butt are a few of the old boys who attained the three star status and formed a luminous chapter in the history of PAF Public School Sargodha. Amongst them Air Marshals Masood Hatif, Shafique Haider, Aliuddin, Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed, Raashid Kaleem, Hifazat Ullah Khan and Tahir Rafique Butt have the distinction of becoming Vice Chiefs of Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force.

On 18 March, 2009, Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman, HI (M), S Bt (851-Sabre/Rafiqui) was designated as the new Chief of the Air Staff, Pkaistan Air Force. He joined PAF Public School Sargodha through 17th Entry in 1967 and passed out in 1973. On 04 October, 2010, Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman was succeeded by yet another Sargodhian, Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt (895-Sabre/Rafiqui). The later joined PAF Public School Sargodha through 18th Entry in 1968 and passed out in 1977. His was the first entry that did its B Sc from the institution. He is the second consecutive Sabrite to have risen to the status of Chief of the Air Staff. During his stay at the School he led his house dynamically as a House Captain and Squadron Under Officer. His career progressed from strength to strength after joining Pakistan Air Force in 1977. He has been decorated with the awards of Nishan-i- Imtiaz(Military), Hilal-i-Imtiaz (Military), Sitara-i-Imtiaz (Military)and Tamgha-i-Basalat for his meritorious and dedicated services. 

Also, in Pakistan Army Sargodhians have kept up their exalted record of excellence and proved that their quest for the extra ordinary is their ordinary business. General Ahsan Salim Hyat (447-S) and General Ehsanul Haq (589-F) rose to the coveted rank of four star General on 7 October, 2004 and were appointed as Vice Chief of the Army Staff and the Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee respectively. Additionally, Lt Gen G M Malik (57-A), Lt Gen Humayun Bangash (102-S), Lt Gen Khalid Ahmed Kidwai (615-S) Lt Gen Arif Hayat Malik and Lt Gen Safdar Hussain are some of the inspiring Sargodhians whose glorious achievements the young lot would love to emulate if destiny desired so.

Sargodhians in Bangladesh too have added proud feathers to their alma mater. Four of them, AVM (Retd) Sultan Mahmood (267-F), AVM (Retd) Mumtazuddin Ahmed (295-T), AVM (Retd) Rafiq-ul-Islam (693-T) have the distinction of being the former Air Chiefs of Bangladesh Air Force while AVM Fakhr-ul-Azam (694-T) is the present Air Chief. Maj Gen Amjad Khan Chaudhry (61-A), Maj Gen Muzzamil (65-F), and Maj Gen Moeenuddin Ahmed (815-F) are few other Sargodhians who have risen to prominent positions in Bangladesh Army. Maj Gen Moeen was elevated to the rank of Lt Gen and appointed as the Chief of Army Staff, Bangladesh Army on 15 June, 2005. He later on added one more star to his uniform. He is the first Army Chief to have risen to the status of four-star General in Bangladesh.

About the Writer

Sqn Ldr M Shahid Hafeez joined PAF Public School Sargodha on 15 March, 1992. He pioneered the School History Room in 1998. He has been writing and updating the School History for the School Website since 2002.

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## he-man

Ok ppl can anyone tell me the best radar in pakistani f-16's??apg-66 or 68?

If apg-68 then which version and the specifications of that radar like range etc

Does f-16 have a dedicated irst??If yes then range will be appreciated

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...n-f-16-discussions-2-a-458.html#ixzz2dOC9CyFv


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## fatman17

Friday, August 30, 2013 



*AVM Hussain assumes charge of CAA* 

KARACHI: Air Vice Marshal (AVM) Khawar Hussain has assumed the charge of Deputy Director General Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) from August 20, 2013, said a handout issued here on Thursday. Hussain was commissioned in Pakistan Air Force as GD-Pilot in 1984 and since then, has served in various disciplines of aviation involving safety, training, plans and operations. He has commanded a fighter squadron and a fighter base. He has also graduated from Air War Collage, National Defence University and Naval Post Graduate School (NPS) USA. Hussain has served as Defence Attachè in UAE, said the handout. ppi


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## Zarvan

Man I recently met an Air Force guy and he told me something which was quite shocking Man that PTDC motel in Swat was not bombed by Taliban it was bombed by our Air Force because Taliban were using that as head quarters and first Army tried to get rid of them and dropped SSG guys their but they failed and many SSG guys were lost so than Air Force attacked the PTDC motel  @Aeronaut @Leader @Talon @Imran Khan @fatman17 @Oscar @nuclearpak @RazPaK @Rafi @Areesh @balixd @Icarus @Xeric @Arsalan and others


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## Rafi

Zarvan said:


> Man I recently met an Air Force guy and he told me something which was quite shocking Man that PTDC motel in Swat was not bombed by Taliban it was bombed by our Air Force because Taliban were using that as head quarters and first Army tried to get rid of them and dropped SSG guys their but they failed and many SSG guys were lost so than Air Force attacked the PTDC motel
> @Aeronaut @Leader @Talon @Imran Khan @fatman17 @Oscar @nuclearpak @RazPaK @Rafi @Areesh @balixd @Icarus @Xeric @Arsalan and others



No the tabs burned it, your friend is mistaken.


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## Zarvan

Rafi said:


> No the tabs burned it, your friend is mistaken.



No Sir it was your Air Force who bombed it he is in Air Force he was part of that operation Mr Sir and they did it to get rid of Taliban because Taliban were using that base and it was hard to get them out so Air Force had to be used


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## Beerbal

Zarvan said:


> Man I recently met an Air Force guy and he told me something which was quite shocking Man that PTDC motel in Swat was not bombed by Taliban it was bombed by our Air Force because Taliban were using that as head quarters and first Army tried to get rid of them and dropped SSG guys their but they failed and many SSG guys were lost so than Air Force attacked the PTDC motel
> @Aeronaut @Leader @Talon @Imran Khan @fatman17 @Oscar @nuclearpak @RazPaK @Rafi @Areesh @balixd @Icarus @Xeric @Arsalan and others






In anti terrorist operations it is normal thing/... I have seen Indian blowing up mosque if terrorirts hiding into..


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## Rafi

Zarvan said:


> No Sir it was your Air Force who bombed it he is in Air Force he was part of that operation Mr Sir and they did it to get rid of Taliban because Taliban were using that base and it was hard to get them out so Air Force had to be used



1) the guy can get court-martial'd for revealing Air Force Operations to a civilian.
2) the tabs burned it - I have it on good information, so the guy is a liar.


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## Zarvan

Rafi said:


> 1) the guy can get court-martial'd for revealing Air Force Operations to a civilian.
> 2) the tabs burned it - I have it on good information, so the guy is a liar.



Mr unfortunately many of Pakistan Army guys and Air Force and Navy guys do these things for them operation is gone so it doesn't matter much


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## Kompromat

Zarvan said:


> Man I recently met an Air Force guy and he told me something which was quite shocking Man that PTDC motel in Swat was not bombed by Taliban it was bombed by our Air Force because Taliban were using that as head quarters and first Army tried to get rid of them and dropped SSG guys their but they failed and many SSG guys were lost so than Air Force attacked the PTDC motel
> @Aeronaut @Leader @Talon @Imran Khan @fatman17 @Oscar @nuclearpak @RazPaK @Rafi @Areesh @balixd @Icarus @Xeric @Arsalan and others




Taliban had turned the structure into a weapons dump. I don't think any attempt to rescue the building was made, they dropped a few JDAMs on it.



Rafi said:


> 1) the guy can get court-martial'd for revealing Air Force Operations to a civilian.
> 2) the tabs burned it - I have it on good information, so the guy is a liar.



Its public information, please go slow on court martials. The hotel was turned into a weapons dump and a retreat for the Taliban, it had to be taken out.

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## Leader

Zarvan said:


> Man I recently met an Air Force guy and he told me something which was quite shocking Man that PTDC motel in Swat was not bombed by Taliban it was bombed by our Air Force because Taliban were using that as head quarters and first Army tried to get rid of them and dropped SSG guys their but they failed and many SSG guys were lost so than Air Force attacked the PTDC motel
> @Aeronaut @Leader @Talon @Imran Khan @fatman17 @Oscar @nuclearpak @RazPaK @Rafi @Areesh @balixd @Icarus @Xeric @Arsalan and others



so? it was because of the ****** talibans..


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## Amaa'n

some FC troops were martyed in the process too, so your friend is right, PAF (We) bombed the place to ground but i guess he didnt tell you that when Taliban attacked the motel, they fired RPGs on it, the motel was already damaged.
its like bombing the houses which taliban tookover


Zarvan said:


> Man I recently met an Air Force guy and he told me something which was quite shocking Man that PTDC motel in Swat was not bombed by Taliban it was bombed by our Air Force because Taliban were using that as head quarters and first Army tried to get rid of them and dropped SSG guys their but they failed and many SSG guys were lost so than Air Force attacked the PTDC motel
> @Aeronaut @Leader @Talon @Imran Khan @fatman17 @Oscar @nuclearpak @RazPaK @Rafi @Areesh @balixd @Icarus @Xeric @Arsalan and others


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## Zarvan

balixd said:


> some FC troops were martyed in the process too, so your friend is right, PAF (We) bombed the place to ground but i guess he didnt tell you that when Taliban attacked the motel, they fired RPGs on it, the motel was already damaged.
> its like bombing the houses which taliban tookover



What he told me was Taliban were sitting their they were using that as their head quarters so first Soldiers on ground tried to get it clear but failed and many died than they Air Force came in and bombed the place

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## Amaa'n

Zarvan said:


> What he told me was Taliban were sitting their they were using that as their head quarters so first Soldiers on ground tried to get it clear but failed and many died than they Air Force came in and bombed the place



according to my knowledge Army soliders were sent in, we took some causalities, the area was a taliban stronghold so we failed - it was one of those days when Taliban was at peak of its power - so we bombed the place, but as I said that motel was already leveled by Taliban when they fired RPGs on it while taking over it - you are right it was their regional HQ & weapons dump


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## Xeric

Zarvan said:


> What he told me was Taliban were sitting their they were using that as their head quarters so first Soldiers on ground tried to get it clear but failed and many died than they Air Force came in and bombed the place



You 'source' is an SPJ!

The motel was already in rubbles, thanks to the tabs, only that it was still being used as dump/cache by them. We just made sure that they dont even do that.

We are quite warry of demolishing our own infrastructure, and there is no harm in pounding an already scortched place with a few more bombs.

Your source is probably having second hand info, and hence the assumtions.


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## Yzd Khalifa

@Aeronaut 

Any updates ?


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## Jango

Zarvan said:


> Man I recently met an Air Force guy and he told me something which was quite shocking Man that PTDC motel in Swat was not bombed by Taliban it was bombed by our Air Force because Taliban were using that as head quarters and first Army tried to get rid of them and dropped SSG guys their but they failed and many SSG guys were lost so than Air Force attacked the PTDC motel
> @Aeronaut @Leader @Talon @Imran Khan @fatman17 @Oscar @nuclearpak @RazPaK @Rafi @Areesh @balixd @Icarus @Xeric @Arsalan and others



So???

As other members have already said, it was already bombed pretty heavily by the Taliban and also by PA in a fight to reclaim it...then the PAF went in.

Nothing wrong here...

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## nangyale

nuclearpak said:


> So???
> 
> As other members have already said, it was already bombed pretty heavily by the Taliban and also by PA in a fight to reclaim it...then the PAF went in.
> 
> Nothing wrong here...



Even if there was some damage done. The AirForce completely demolished it with bombs. It wasn't burned or anything, if you look at the damage it is quite obvious that it's destroyed from Air. I have some photos if anyone hasn't seen I can upload them.


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## Irfan Baloch

fatman17 said:


> .....none, nil, nada,zilch....nyet...



... and never


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## Amaa'n

nangyale said:


> Even if there was some damage done. The AirForce completely demolished it with bombs. It wasn't burned or anything, if you look at the damage it is quite obvious that it's destroyed from Air. I have some photos if anyone hasn't seen I can upload them.



please do so, we would like to see what wrong the infidel Airforce has done......


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## nangyale

balixd said:


> please do so, we would like to see what wrong the infidel Airforce has done......



Please don't put words in my mouth I never said anything about infidel AirForce. But I do consider it as a case of overkill.

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## fatman17

*Pakistani and Chinese air forces participate in joint 'Shaheen-II' exercises*


Author:Farhan Bokhari, Islamabad


Last posted:2013-09-05


Pakistani Mirage 5EF are to participate in the Shaheen-II joint air exercise with the PLAAF. The exercise is being held in China from 3 to 22 September 2013. (PAF) 


The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) began what it described as its first ever joint exercises in Chinese airspace with the People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) on 3 September. 

Known as the 'Shaheen-II' exercises, they will run until 22 September and follow the Sino-Pakistani Shaheen-I exercises that took place in Pakistan in March 2011. 

The PAF said it had sent Mirage and Chinese-built F-7PG aircraft to China for Shaheen-II, while declining to give the exact number of aircraft involved. 

"The prime objective of the exercise is to excel in air combat capability with a focus on air power employment in any future conflict," the PAF said. "The Pakistan Air Force conducts such exercises on regular intervals, both inland and abroad. 

"Air exercise Shaheen-II will provide an opportunity to combat crew of both air forces to acquaint themselves with applied tactics of airpower in realistic scenarios." 

Pakistani F-7PG are to participate in the Shaheen-II joint exercise with China. (PAF) 

Western defence officials in Islamabad stated that the PLAAF air base chosen for the exercises in China's restive western Xinjiang region is important for Beijing's security interests. During the past decade, Xinjiang has occasionally seen unrest by Muslim separatists; some reports have suggested China has quietly complained to Pakistan over the possibility of some of these groups receiving arms and training from Muslim separatists in Pakistan.

"I am sure these exercises are important for Pakistan and China, to have their assets flown together. This gives new experience to the air force commanders in both countries," said one Western defence official in Islamabad. 

"The choice of Xinjiang seems to be very important. The Chinese are keen to further build up their ties with Pakistan's armed forces." 

ANALYSIS
The joint exercises between the PAF and PLAAF come at a time when the PAF remains heavily dependent on China for the supply of some of its hardware. The PAF plans to eventually induct between 200 and 250 JF-17 Thunder fighters, jointly developed by Pakistan and China. Some analysts believe Pakistan has begun quietly lobbying to gain eventual access to the stealth fighters China is developing.

JDW

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## airomerix

Our F-7s have seen F-22s, J-11s, J-10s and Block 60s till now. A handy experience for future viper/thunder pilots. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the veteran F-16 pilots would be piloting the PG's.

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## fatman17

DEFENCE NOTES

*Devastation of Pathankot*


Columnist Gp Capt SULTAN M HALI writes about the PAF&#8217;s air strike on PATHANKOT in 1965. 


PAF&#8217;s air strike on 6th September, 1965 on the Indian Air Force base of Pathankot has been rated by historians and defence analysts of both Indian and Pakistan as one of the most successful air raids of contemporary history. Not only did the PAF pilots achieve complete surprise but they also executed the attack with text-book precision. Its details make fascinating reading. 
PAF&#8217;s airfield strike plan for the dusk of day one of the war in 1965 comprised the following:- 

STATION OF ORIGIN SORTIES & AIRCRAFT TARGET
Sargodha.......................................8 F-86 Sabres................................	Adampur
Sargodha.......................................8 F-86 Sabres................................	Halwara
Peshawar.......................................8 F-86 Sabres................................Pathankot
Mauripur........................................8 F-86 Sabres................................	Jamnagar

Source: Story of PAF 

The Time Over Target (TOT) for the strike was set at 1705 hours. This was to be followed by night bombing raids by B-57 bombers. 

No 19 Squadron which was based at Peshawar, had been given the Indian airfield at Pathankot as its first target. This target had been allotted in mid-1965 when the Rann of Katch crisis was at its peak. Pathankot was the only large Indian Air Force (IAF) airfield within fighter reach of Peshawar, and even this distance of 200 miles or so was marginal for the Sabre, with two 200-gallon drop tanks in addition to full internal fuel, if sufficient reserve was to be kept in hand for a fighting exit. This would limit the weapons to only the 1800 rounds of the six. 50 Browning guns of the Sabres. 

Squadron Leader Sajad Haider, affectionately known as &#8216;Nosey Haider&#8217;, the Squadron Commander of No 19 Squadron had prepared his squadron pilots well and planned the strikes very thoroughly using a High-lo-High profile. This involved getting airborne from Peshawar and climbing high in the opposite direction then dipping to tree-top level below radar cover, turning simultaneously towards the target. The Squadron had in fact carried out identical and simulated strikes to practice for attacks on its primary and alternate targets. 

Dawn of 6th September, 1965 saw a formation of 6 F-86s of No 19 Squadron fully loaded with 5 inch rockets (a last minute premonition the night before, by Air Marshal Nur Khan the C-in-C, which paid rich dividends) flying on &#8220;Hot Patrol&#8217;. The moment the Air Defence Commander learnt of Indian Army&#8217;s advance towards Lahore, the 19 Squadron formation was diverted to stop the advancing Indian armour columns at Wagah. In twenty minutes of action, the Grand Trunk Road was littered with scores of burning tanks, armoured and soft vehicles. The 5 inch rockets had a devastating effect on the enemy armour. The formation led by Squadron Leader Sajad Haider with Flight Lieutenants M Akbar, Dilawar Hussain, Ghani Akbar and Flying Officers Khalid Latif, and Arshad Chaudhry brought the Indian attack to a dead halt. 

After landing at Sargodha for re-fuelling, the formation rushed back to Peshawar to prepare for the strike on Pathankot. 
Having rested a while the pilots were assembled for a final briefing at 1600 hrs. The formation comprised:- 

After a thorough briefing and going over the already well rehearsed strike plan, Squadron Leader Sajad Haider surprised his pilots by asking for a fire bucket filled with fresh water. He pulled out a bottle of No 4711 Eau-de-Cologne from his coverall pocket and emptied it in the bucket. He took small white towellettes, dipped them in the water and after wringing them out, handed over one each to his pilots. &#8220;This could be a one-way mission and if we meet our Maker, we should be smelling nice&#8221;, Sajad Haider wryly remarked.1 Every pilot complied, his resolve emboldened and his faith reinvigorated. 

Everything proceeded according to the plan and the formation got airborne at 1630 hours, climbed in battle formation up to about 11,000 metres and then dived down to tree top level and set course for the I P (initial point) for the target. 

The planning staff was not certain whether Pathankot would still be occupied by IAF aircraft after the outbreak of hostilities. But the formation of eight Sabres, escorted by two more sidewinders equipped 

F-86s acting as top cover at 6,000 metres were fortunate. 

A glimpse of the other side of the story is also presented from website Bharat Rakhshak: 

&#8220;Meanwhile, at the IAF Air Base at Pathankot, the Station Commander, Group Captain Roshan Suri had just returned from a meeting of Station Commanders from Western Air Command. Suri briefed his Squadron Commanders of the impending Army move to cross the international border.... 

As evening approached, Pathankot Airbase received an urgent phone call from Squadron Leader Dandapani at Amritsar Air Defence Centre. He spoke to Wing Commander Kuriyan and informed him that several Sabres had been observed taking off and then go &#8216;Off the Scope&#8217; as they all went below the radar horizon. This had all the tell-tale signs of an incoming raid. Kuriyan informed Suri about the suspicions of a raid and asked for permission to scramble the CAP (Combat Air Patrol). (This is where the Pathankot Base Commander made a vital mistake for which IAF paid dearly) Suri refused to order the CAP to go off and ordered Kuriyan to go off the shift.&#8221;2 

The PAF aircraft reached Pathankot precisely on time at 1705 hours and discovered a large number of IAF aircraft parked around in protected dispersal pens. With no enemy fighters in the vicinity and fairly thin ground fire, &#8216;Nosey&#8217; set the ball rolling with four carefully-positioned dives from about 500 metres, systematically selecting individual aircraft in protected pens on the airfield for his fixed-gun attacks. He was gratified to recognize the distinctive delta-winged MiG-21s- India&#8217;s latest fighter - among the aircraft on the ground, and singled them out for special attention. 

The rest of the pilots followed suit. Each pilot had been briefed to make only two passes but the lucrative targets and limited opposition enabled them to make multiple passes. Wing Commander Tawab, flying top cover, counted at least 14 fires burning on the airfield. 

&#8220;Wing Commander Kuriyan was just then driving into his garage at his house, when he heard the ack ack guns booming. He looked towards the airfield to see four F-86 Sabres bore down the airfield at low level firing their machine guns, while two &#8216;F-104 Starfighters&#8217; kept high altitude cover. As the four Sabres pulled out, another four bore in. The Sabres strafed buildings, installations and aircraft on the ground.... 

......The Sabres attacked the row of MiGs and Mysteres along the blast pens in the airfield. The CAP was not scrambled. Two of the MiGs, which were being refuelled after returning from an earlier flight, went up in flames. 

.......Some Mysteres on the ground bore the brunt of the raid and were damaged as were the two MiG-21s. Only the fact that the Sabre&#8217;s 0.50 inch machine guns could fire ball ammunition instead of exploding cannon shells prevented further damage. The Sabres slipped off unscathed as even the airfield defences were caught napping. For the PAF this raid was a cakewalk. All in all one C-119, four Mysteres, two Gnats and two MiG-21s were destroyed in this highly successful raid by the Pakistan Air Force.&#8221; 3 
After de-briefing and interrogation, this text book operation against Pathankot was credited with seven MiG-21s, five Mysteres and one Fairchild C-119 destroyed on the ground, plus damage to the Air Traffic Control building - IAF admits to the loss of only two MiG-21s but it goes to the credit of PAF that after the fateful strike on Pathankot, Indian MiG-21s were not seen in the air for the remaining duration of the 1965 War. 

Epilogue: 

Where are they now? 

Six of the pilots on the devastating raid on Pathankot including both pilots flying Top Cover, Squadron Leader Sajad Haider, Flight Lieutenants M Akbar, Dilawar Hussain, Ghani Akbar and Arshad Sami and Wing Commander M G Tawab were decorated with the Sitara-e-Jurat. 

Squadron Leader Sajad Haider later commanded the Flying wing at Sargodha during the 1971 War. He served as Air Attache at Washington D.C. and retired as Air Commodore in 1983. 

Flight Lieutenant M Akbar rose to the rank of Air Commodore, commanded the Pakistan Armed Forces Mission at Riyadh and retired in September, 1991. 

Flight Lieutenant Dilawar saw action during the 1971 War and shot down an IAF Hunter over Dhaka on 04 December, 1971. He went on to become an Air Marshal and retired from the post of Director General Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, Kamra. 

Flying Officer Abbas Khattak also saw action in the 1971 War. He rose to the rank of Air Chief Marshal and commanded Pakistan Air Force from 1994-97. He is now leading a retired life. 

Flying Officer Arshad Chaudhry rose to the rank of Air Marshal and retired from the post of Vice Chief of the Air Staff in 1997. 

Flight Lieutenant Mazhar Abbas retired in the rank of Air Commodore. 

Flying Officer Khalid Latif retired in the rank of Group Captain. 

Flight Lieutenant Ghani Akbar left the airforce as a Squadron Leader and started flying for PIA. He is now retired. 

Flight Lieutenant Arshad Sami Khan left the Air Force in the rank of Squadron Leader and joined Foreign Service. Currently he is an Ambassador. 

Wing Commander M G Tawab left Pakistan Air Force in the rank of Group Captain. He later became an Air Vice Marshal and commanded the fledgling Bangladesh Air Force. After his retirement, he settled in Germany, where he breathed his last in 1998 after a brief illness. His demise was mourned by friends and admirers all over. 

Bibliography 
1. Narrated from Air Cdre Sajad Haider&#8217;s TV programme telecast on Defence of Pakistan Day 1997. 
2. Down loaded from the Internet &#8220;Air Attack &#8212; Outbreak of the War (September-1965)&#8221; website Bharat Rakhshak. 
3. Ibid. 
4. Fricker, John, Battle for Pakistan: The Air War of 1965, published by Ian Allan Ltd, Surrey, 1979. 
5. The Story of the Pakistan Air Force, published by the Shaheen Foundation, Islamabad, 1988. 

DJ

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## fatman17

*In Memoriam: M.M. Alam (1935-2013) *




Rai Muhammad Saleh Azam



Air Commodore (Retd.) Muhammad Mahmood Alam, popularly known as "M.M. Alam", Pakistan's first fighter ace, who shot down nine Indian Air Force (IAF) jets in the 1965 India-Pakistan War, including five in a single sortie, passed away in Karachi on 18 March 2013, aged 78.

Born into a Bengali family on 6 July 1935 in Calcutta, British India, Alam completed his secondary education from Government High School in Dhaka in 1951 and joined the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) College (later Academy), Risalpur in 1952, enrolling in the 16th General Duties Pilot (GDP) Batch from which he graduated a year later. He was commissioned into the PAF on 2 October 1953.

At the outbreak of the 1965 India-Pakistan War, Alam was serving as Squadron Leader with the PAF's elite No. 11 Squadron, flying F-86F Sabres out of Sargodha Air Base.

During the War, Alam downed a total of nine Indian fighters in air-to-air combat with two additional unconfirmed probables. Alam's tally of confirmed kills comprised nine IAF Hawker Hunters. On 7 September 1965, Alam downed five IAF Hunters in less than a minute, the first four within 30 seconds, thereby establishing a world record.

John Fricker, the noted British aviation writer, wrote of M.M. Alam in his article "Thirty Seconds over Sargodha" (Air Enthusiast, Vol. 1, No. 1, 1971): 

"...Mohammad Mahmood Alam is a scrap of a man who appears almost lost in the none-too-roomy cockpit of a Sabre. Yet during the 1965 conflict with India, this Pakistani squadron commander, established a combat record which has few equals in the history of jet warfare...Many pilots have scored several air victories in one sortie, and have exceeded or equaled Alam&#8217;s...shooting down up to five enemy aircraft of superior performance within a few minutes. But few are likely to be able to match his record of destroying at least three opponents &#8211; Hawker Hunters of the IAF [Indian Air Force] &#8211; within the space of somewhere around 30 seconds."

Alam's confirmed kills are as follows:

Date: 6 September 1965
Aircraft Used: F-86F Sabre
Downed Aircraft: 2× IAF Hawker Hunters
Downed Pilots: Squadron Leader Ajit Kumar Rawlley, No. 7 Sqn, KIA; 1 Unknown IAF pilot
Location: Over Taran Taran, India
Other Information: Dogfight involving 3 PAF F-86s versus 4 IAF Hunters

Date: 7 September 1965
Aircraft Used: F-86F Sabre
Downed Aircraft: 5× IAF Hawker Hunters
Downed Pilots: Squadron Leader Onkar Nath Kacker, No. 27 Sqn, POW; Squadron Leader A.B. Devayya, No. 7 Sqn, KIA; Squadron Leader Suresh B. Bhagwat, No. 7 Sqn, KIA; Flight Lieutenant B. Guha, No. 7 Sqn, KIA; Flying Officer Jagdev Singh Brar, No. 7 Sqn, KIA
Location: 1 Kill east of Sargodha near the Chenab River and 4 Kills 30 miles away over Sangla Hill - midway between Lahore and Sargodha, Pakistan

Other Information: Dogfight involving 2 PAF F-86s versus 6 IAF Hunters. All 5 aircraft shot down in a single sortie, 4 within 30 seconds. 1 AIM-9 Sidewinder Kill, 4 Gun Kills

Date: 16 September 1965
Aircraft Used: F-86F Sabre
Downed Aircraft: 2× IAF Hawker Hunters
Downed Pilots: Flying Officer Farokh Dara Bunsha, No. 7 Sqn, KIA; 1 Unknown IAF pilot
Location: Near Halwara and Adampur, India

Other Information: In a single sortie. Dogfight involving 2 IAF Hunters versus 2 PAF F-86 Sabres. 1 Gun Kill, 1 AIM-9 Sidewinder Kill

Alam next to his F-86 Sabre in September 1965 (notice the 11 Indian flags 
painted on the Sabre representing 9 confirmed kills and 2 probable kills)

Below is Alam's account of his kills on 7 September 1965 as quoted by Fricker:

"As we were vectored back towards Sargodha, Akhtar called, "Contact - four Hunters", and I saw the IAF aircraft diving to attack our airfield. So I jettisoned my drops [external fuel tanks] to dive through our own ack-ack [anti-aircraft cannon] after them. But in the meantime I saw two more Hunters about 1,000 ft. to my rear, so I forgot the four in front and pulled up to go after the pair behind. The Hunters broke off their attempted attack on Sargodha, and the rear pair turned into me. I was flying much faster than they were at this stage - I must have been doing about 500 knots - so I pulled up to avoid overshooting them and then reversed to close in as they flew back towards India.

"I took the last man and dived behind him, getting very low in the process. The Hunter can out-run the Sabre, it's only about 50 knots faster, but has a much better acceleration, so it can pull away very rapidly. Since I was diving, I was going still faster, and as he was out of gun range, I fired the first of my two GAR-8 Sidewinder (air- to-air missiles) at him. In this case, we were too low and I saw the missile hit the ground short of its target.

"This area east of Sargodha, however, has lots of high tension wires, some of them as high as 100-150 ft., and when I saw the two Hunters pull up to avoid one of these cables, I fired my second Sidewinder. The missile streaked ahead of me, but I didn't see it strike. The next thing I remember was that I was overshooting one of the Hunters and when I looked behind, the cockpit canopy was missing and there was no pilot in the aircraft. He had obviously pulled up and ejected and then I saw him coming down by parachute. This pilot [Sqn. Ldr. Onkar Nath Kakar, commander of an IAF Hunter squadron] was later taken prisoner.

"I had lost sight of the other five Hunters, but I pressed on thinking maybe they would slow down. There were, of course, still only two Sabre&#8217;s pitted against the remaining five IAF aircraft. I had lots of fuel so I was prepared to fly 50-60 miles to catch up with them. We had just crossed the Chenab river when my wingman called out, "Contact - Hunters 1'o&#8217;clock," and I picked them up at the same time - five Hunters in absolutely immaculate battle formation. They were flying at about 100-200 ft., at around 480 knots and when I was in gun-fire range they saw me. They all broke in one direction, climbing and turning steeply to the left, which put them in loose line astern. This, of course, was their big mistake. If you are bounced, which means a close range approach by an enemy fighter to within less than about 3,000ft, the drill is to call a break. This is a panic maneuver to the limits of the aircraft's performance, which splits the formation and both gets you out of the way of an attack and frees you to position yourself behind your opponent.

"But in the absence of one of the IAF sections initiating a break in the other direction to sandwich our attack, they all simply stayed in front of us.

"It all happened very fast. We were all turning very tightly - in excess of 5g or just about on the limits of the Sabre's very accurate A-4 radar ranging gun sight. And I think before we had completed more than about 270 degrees of the turn, at around 12 degrees per second, all four Hunters had been shot down. 

"In each case, I got the pipper of my sight around the canopy of the Hunter for virtually a full deflection shot. Almost all our shooting throughout the war was at very high angles off &#8211; seldom less than about 30 degrees. Unlike some of the Korean combat films I had seen, nobody in our war was shot down flying straight and level.

"I developed a technique of firing very short bursts &#8211; around half a second or less. The first burst was almost a sighter, but with a fairly large bullet pattern from six machine guns, it almost invariably punctured the fuel tanks that they streamed kerosene.

"During the battle on 7 September, as we went round in the turn, I could just see, in the light of the rising sun, the plumes of fuel gushing from the tanks after my hits. Another half-second burst was then sufficient to set fire to the fuel, and, as the Hunter became a ball of flame, I would shift my aim forward to the next aircraft. The Sabre carries about 1,800 rounds of ammunition for its six 0.5 in. guns, which can therefore fire for about 15 seconds. In air combat, this is a lifetime. Every fourth or fifth round is an armor piercing bullet, and the rest are HEI - high-explosive incendiary. I am certain after this combat that I brought back more than half of my ammunition, although we didn&#8217;t have time to waste counting rounds.

"My fifth victim of this sortie started spewing smoke and then rolled on to his back at about 1,000 ft. I thought he was going to do a barrel roll, which at low altitude is a very dangerous maneuver for the opponent if the man in front knows what he's doing. I went almost on my back and then I realized I might not be able to stay with him so I took off bank and pushed the nose down. The next time I fired was at very close range - about 600 ft. or so &#8211; and his aircraft virtually blew up in front of me. None of the pilots ejected, and all of them were killed."

Alam's F-86 Sabre as depicted by official PAF artist,
Group Captain (Retd.) Syed Masood Akhtar Hussaini

In recognition of his feats during the 1965 War, Alam was awarded Pakistan's second-highest gallantry medal, the Sitara-e-Jurrat (Star of Courage) (with Bar), by the President of Pakistan, which is the highest gallantry medal that can be bestowed upon a living military person by Pakistan (the highest gallantry medal being the Nishan-e-Haider (Sign of the Lion), which is only awarded posthumously).

In 1967, Alam was one of the select group of six PAF pilots sent to Mont-de-Marsan, France for nine-months long conversion training on the PAF's newly-acquired batch of 24 advanced Dassault Mirage III fighters. Alam was subsequently given command of the PAF's first Mirage squadron, No. 5 Squadron, based at Sargodha. 

Being a man of impeccable integrity, Alam was critical of the manner in which Air Chief Marshal Anwar Shamim was running the PAF in the early 1980s, amidst allegations of corruption and abuse of power, which was causing anger and resentment in PAF ranks. Being outspoken, Alam thought it fit to let the Air Chief know of his feelings, which, needless to say, was not taken well by the Air Chief. Alam then lodged a complaint with President Gen. Zia-ul-Haq, informing the President that he had made a mistake by appointing Shamim as the Air Chief. Zia replied by pointing out that Shamim was loyal. To this, Alam retorted, "Loyalty to whom? The country or you?" This was too much for Gen. Zia and the Air Chief to swallow and Alam was prematurely forced into retirement in 1982, when he was holding the rank of Air Commodore. According to Air Marshal Ayaz Ahmed Khan, who was then serving as Vice Chief of the Air Staff, there was a lot of resentment in the PAF at Alam's forced retirement. As a mark of protest, Alam refused to receive pension from the PAF. Anwar Shamim's successor, Air Chief Marshal Jamal Ahmed Khan, tried his best to persuade Alam to accept his pension, but in vain. Alam finally accepted his pension (with arrears) under Air Chief Marshal Pervaiz Mehdi Qureshi in the late 1990s.

Despite the treatment meted out to him, Alam never lost faith in Pakistan or the PAF. Alam's bitterness was directed at individuals, never at institutions or the State. In an interview in 2010, Alam said, "Unfortunately we have not understood the real meaning of freedom. I have learned a lot from life. At times I do feel down, depressed and upset, but at the end of the day I know that I am a soldier and a fighter."

M.M. Alam was buried with full military honours in the graveyard at PAF Base Masroor, Karachi. 



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## fatman17

*F-104 Starfighters of the PAF *

&#8226; 
&#8226; 

Details

Created on Tuesday, 02 December 2008 16:18 
Last Updated: Sunday, 04 January 2009 00:25 
Published on Tuesday, 02 December 2008


F-104A 56-874 is an old PAF warhorse that had seen action in both the Indo-Pak Wars of 65 and 71. It has one confirmed Air to Air Combat kill and another Air to Ground kill. Its currently on display at Sargodha AFB . 

The F-104 Starfighter was undoubtedly one of the most charismatic fighters of the 50s and 60s. It was the first Mach-2 capable fighter in the Indian Subcontinent, when it was inducted into the PAF as part of the Military Asistance Program of the CENTO. It prompted the Indian Air Force to search for a similar aircraft that would balance it. 

Between 1961 and 1965, the PAF procured 14 of these aircraft. Ten single seaters and two Twin seaters were inducted till 1964. After one of the single seaters was lost in an accident (Serial no unknown), two replacement aircraft was seconded from Taiwan in Mar 65. The following table gives the individual aircraft numbers and the fates as known.

Tail #	Date Rec	SOC	Remarks

56-802	05-Aug-61 
56-803	05-Aug-61 
56-804	05-Aug-61	06-Dec-71	S/L Amjad Hussain was SD by AA fire over Amritsar
56-805	05-Aug-61 
56-807	05-Aug-61 
56-868	05-Aug-61	17-Sep-65	F/O GA Abbasi crashed while landing in low visibility. Mystere claim (65) 
56-874	05-Aug-61 Preserved at PAF Peshawar. Canberra Kill (65) HF-24 Ground Kill (71)
56-875	05-Aug-61 Pole Mounted at PAF Risalpur
56-877	05-Aug-61	07-Sep-65	F/L Amjad Hussain was SD by S/L AB Devayya (Mystere). 'Gnat FL Claim'
56-879	05-Aug-61 Preserved at PAF Masroor
56-773	08-Jun-64	12-Dec-71	W/C MH Middlecoat was SD by F/L BB Soni (MiG-21) over Kutch
56-798	01-Mar-65 Preserved at Karachi Museum Internal Hangar - Ex Taiwan
57-1309	05-Aug-61 Two Seater Trainer - Preserved at Karachi Museum
57-1312	05-Aug-61 Two Seater Trainer - Preserved at PAF Faisal

The F-104 Starfighters remained in service with Pakistan Air Force for twelve years and flew 11,690 hours. During the 1965 Pakistan-India War, the F-104s flew a total of 246 hours and 45 minutes while during the 1971 War, the F-104s flew a total of 103 hours and forty-five minutes.

Of the fourteen aircraft, two were officially lost in the 65 War and another two were lost to Indian AA fire and MiGs respectively in the 1971 conflict. Today atleast six of the original fourteen are known to be preserved at various locations in Pakistan. Only one of the aircraft has a rich combat history as far as we know. 56-874 preserved at Peshawar has a Canberra night kill in the 65 war and a confirmed HF-24 strafed on the ground at Uttarlai in the 71 Operations. 

One Starfighter 56-875 is displayed on a pole at the PAF Academy in Risalpur , while 56-879 is at PAF Masroor. 

F-104A 56-875 is displayed in a striking manner at the PAF Academy at Risalpur.

F-104A 56-879 in a magnificient display at PAF Masroor.

Two other PAF F-104s are preserved in the Karachi PAF Museum. These include one of the two seaters 57-1309. The PAF Museum also houses a third F-104 serialled 62-682 . This third Starfighter was a gift from Turkey and is displayed on a pedestal in a nose high attitude sporting the Turkish Air Force markings. The other Starfighter is the ex Taiwanese machine 56-798 which is displayed inside the hangar in the museum. This was reported to have been displayed at Sargodha earlier before being moved to its current home. The last of the two seaters 57-1312 is preserved at the gate of PAF Faisal near Karachi. 

There were reports of a sixth PAF survivor but no information is known on its serial number. A picture of this aircraft appears in the PAF History book for 1988-98 and it is reported to be preserved at Chaklala. If this was indeed another original PAF F-104 Starfighter, it would leave two other F-104s unaccounted for, as we know one was lost Pre-1965. But it turned out that this was the same aircraft that is now displayed in Risalpur. So that left just three F-104s of whose fate we do not have information about. 

F-104B 57-1312 is one of the two twin seaters used by the PAF , seen here on display at PAF Faisal.

F-104B 57-1309 is second of the two twin seaters used by the PAF , seen here on display at PAF Risalpur, before it was moved to the PAF Museum in Karachi in 1999.

John Fricker in an article 'Post-Mortem of an Air War' that appeared in Air Enthusiast in January 1972 reported that the PAF had only eight F-104s at the beginning of the war implying that atleast four were lost in accidents before the 1971 war. Fricker also mentions that the PAF was able to account for five survivors at the end of it. But we now have six survivors. Its probable that one of the six survivors was actually struck off charge before the 71 Ops commenced.

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## fatman17

Sunday, September 12, 2010



*PAF s&#8217; Air War Plan June 1965 *



Basic Philosophy of Air Defence of Pakistan:-


Since its incorporation, The Pakistan Air Force was a small size tactical Air Force and was geared for its paramount mission in terms of defensive and offensive operations be used to deny the numerically superior enemy Air Forces the free utilization of Pakistan s&#8217; air space and as well to safeguard the country s&#8217; strategic military and economic assets and infrastructure, including the Air Force s&#8217; own aircraft , air bases, ADGE s&#8217; radars from destruction at the hands of superior enemy Air Force. 

The offensive mission in the first phase at the outset of hostilities was to attack the superior enemy Air Force s&#8217; air bases, destroying as many enemy aircraft and air base infrastructure, including air base installations, radars and other facilities of POL & ammunition dumps etc. Such offensive operation would not only reduce the pressure on Pakistan s&#8217; Air Defences; but it would also greatly facilitate the achievement of the over all control of the air space, with out which the Air Force s&#8217; Army and Navy support operations could effectively be jeopardized by the superior enemy Air Force.

The Air War Plan was resulted from the fundamental school of thought crystallized along with final analysis contemplated by Air Marshal Muhammad Asghar Khan Commander-in-Chief, PAF and his staff on the employment of the Air Force in the air defense battle for Pakistan in June 1962., Which was later updated and finalized on June 1965 after operation desert hawk during Rann of Kutch military duel between Indian and Pakistan Armies in the desert.

Strategic Background:- 


Since 15th August, 1947., The paramount mission of the Royal Pakistan Air Force had been established by its High Command to achieve a high degree of air superiority at the outset of the war with enemy air force through Counter Air Operation. 

Every Air Chief of the PAF has maintained its paramount mission with spirit and letter. Air Vice Marshal Sir R L R Atcherley s&#8217; first message delivered to the Air Force, while taking over the command of Royal Pakistan Air Force on 19th February 1949., reflected a thorough professional approach, defining its milestone. &#8221;The sole preoccupation of every individual in this Air Force, No matter in what sphere of activity he finds himself, is to keep our aircraft flying, ready to fight, equipped and trained for war, down to the last detail.&#8221;

While, Air Vice Marshal Sir R L R Atcherley releasing strategic cardinal policy for air defence of Pakistan stated, &#8220;that the Air Force take on enemy Air Force, then try to isolate the battlefield and after that give direct support to the ground forces&#8221;.

The Royal Pakistan Air Force s&#8217; Air Headquarters directive No 11 issued in April 1949, which declared:-

&#8220;In air strategy initiative is a prerequisite to air superiority: in air tactics, it&#8217;s the key to victory.&#8221;

The air superiority proved to be a prerequisite to any successful surface military campaign in sea or at land. No operational mission, not even the routine movement of troops or logistics, was possible with out first achieving favourable air superiority by the Air Force.

The concept dates back Spain s&#8217; Civil War of 1936. The German Luftwaffe s&#8217; Condor legion sank a number of Republican ships, and they developed effective tactical procedure for integrating air operations with the artillery fire and movement of General Franco s&#8217; ground forces.

The concept of air superiority was described by Prime Minister of the Britain, Sir Winston Churchill during the Second World War. &#8220;The only security upon which sound military principles will rely is that you should be master of your own air.&#8221; 

The concept of air superiority and its object, scope and operational methodology in terms of tactical and strategic air operations has adequately demonstrated its track record during World War-II, Korean War and Arab Israel Wars. 

Apart from above wars, during the first Indo-Pak military conflict on account of Kashmir valley. The Indian Army units led by Col. Sam Manekshaw (Later Chief of Army Staff & Field Marshal) pre empted to start landing in the Kashmir valley through massive air lift and air support sorties rendered by the Indian Air Force at 9.30 am on 27th October 1947. The Indian Air Force s&#8217; Dakota DC-3s along 100 Dakotas from Air Lines successfully undertook the uphill task under the command of Air Commodore Baba Mehar Singh. 

The PAF was severely handicapped, with only 16 Tempests on its inventory against the IAF s&#8217; 68. Furthermore, The Government of Pakistan had prohibited its battle employment in order to avoid a full scale air war with India. Whereas, IAF s&#8217; Tempests fighter aircraft enjoyed complete freedom of action to carry out hit and run air raids against mujahideen lashkars operating around Srinagar and valley. The Indian Army could successfully hold the battle ground to ward off mujahideen s&#8217; guerilla warfare offensive operations by capturing Srinagar through the active and dynamic air support operations/sorties carried out by the Indian Air Force. During Poonch & Ladakh/Leh operations, The tactical utilization of the Air Force on mountain range and its valleys turned tide in favour of invading Army.

Whereas the Pak Army High Command and Army Generals of the early 50s perhaps found it difficult to understand what this new concept of air superiority was all about. Even C-in-C, Pak Army, General Douglas Gracey tried to advocate the &#8220;Air Support Vs Air Superiority&#8221; school of thought among sister services in his arbitrary and arrogant style, Without acknowledging the historical significance of Air Superioriy through Counter Air Operation with recent proven track records in Battle of Britain,Japanese Navy s' pre emptive air strikes on Pearl Harbour/Hawai US Naval Complex,Battle of Midway and World War-II.

Gracey would be remembered in our National History, who defaulted to comply the legitimate & constitutional orders issued by Governor General Pakistan Muhammah Ali Jinnah to launch attack in Kasmir to counter Indian military operations there on 26th October ,1947., leaving behind an abject disgrace to be followed by others.

General Gracey distributed a paper under title &#8220; First Lesson from Korea&#8221; to various formations of the Pakistan Army and a copy endorsed to the C-in-C, RPAF, outlining the proposed Air Support role of the Air Force dated 29th August, 1950.

&#8220;The small Pakistan Air Force should be trained primarily for tactical support of the Pakistan Army and the Navy, and be equipped to carry out this task with suitable aircraft. Army & Air Force and Navy & Air Force cooperation must be perfected, especially as regard air reconnaissance, the production of air photos and the direct support of the Army in conjunction with artillery in the destruction of enemy tanks. The indirect tactical support of the Army by air attacks on enemy ammunition, POL and supply convoys should be studied.&#8221;

Where as mentioned earlier, Air Vice Marshal Sir R L R Atcherley the Commander in Chief of the Royal Pakistan Air Force had been firm conviction on a graduated approach by the Air Force during the battle week, Because no military operation in modern warfare can succeed with out prior attainment of a favourable air situation.

Later on the Concept of the Joint Operations & Planning between the Army and the Air Force as well as the Army and the Navy could not get any practical shape at GHQ s' level, because Military ruler General Ayub Khan and his loyal C-in-C of the Army General Musa Khan had not acknowledged the paramount significance of the Air Force and the Navy for the defence of the country and thereby had been considering the Air Force as an extension of the artillery and the army due to their poor military vision and very limited elementary knowledge of strategy and tactics. Although the country was divided geographically among two parts West and East connecting through sea lanes via Indian Ocean & aerial route overflying archrival India,the Pakistan Navy was also getting lowest priority as per defence policy of the government of Pakistan, which was basically army dominated due to General Ayub Khan s' military rule in the country.

That s' why, these incompetent & mediocre Army Generals commanding the best professional army of Pakistan could not visualized the strategic role of the PAF under the air war strategy, its operational & tactical capabilities as well as limitations Vs numerically superior enemy the IAF anticipating future military conflicts between India and Pakistan on Kashmir s' core issue.

Meanwhile, PAF s' chief Air Marshal Asghar Khan tried to convince his counterpart General Musa Khan and President General Ayub Khan about the concept & operational methodology of the Joint Operations & Planning, but could not achieve any breakthrough and the Pakistan Army High Command remained engaged in its war planning in isolation from the Air Force and the Navy. Whereas, effective inter services co-operation between the air force, the navy and the army can grow only out of mutual trust and complete understanding of each other operational capabilities and limitations, which totally was lacked on part of the army !

&#8220;Air Superiority&#8221; The Strategic Milestone of PAF:-

Later on in subsequent years during sixties the controversy about air superiority vs air support continued, while the PAF was setting its course on the path of supersonic jet technology transformation in line with USAF s&#8217; globally acknowledged professional standards. Air Marshal Asghar Khan being a very visionary strategist and Commander in Chief , Pakistan Air Force strongly advocated the case of Air Force before army dominated school of thought and hierarchy clearly stating that: 

&#8220;PAF must first achieve a high degree of air superiority over the land battle areas, and it must be equipped to do this effectively.&#8221;

That s&#8217; why Air Superiority through Counter Air Operation has been the Strategic Milestone of PAF Air War Strategy since August 1947. 

Geo-Political & Strategic Factors:-

Since the time of independence, Air Force High Command kept assuming that the PAF would be fighting the numerically superior, highly trained enemy Air Force. Therefore, Air Force hierarchy wanted to raised and maintained a highly trained, motivated and professional Air Force that could destroy any enemy numerically superior Air Force that might deployed against Pakistan and which could render adequate air support to Army ground forces.

The Indian Government after humiliating military defeat of Indian Army by the Chinese Army during mountainous battles at Ladakh & NEFA in 1962 , launched a gigantic program to expand the size of the Indian Air Force. The IAF s&#8217; strength was planned to increased from 28,000 personnel in 1962 to 100,000 personnel by 1964 and A large number of new fighter bombers squadrons and wings were planned to raised in the Air Force. An emerging sign of formidable air power threat in the future conflict with India.

The Indian Army s&#8217; Rann of Kutch venture against Pakistan Army also turned out to be another fiasco. Soon after Kutch debacle in the desert, Indian Prime Minister Lal Bhadur Shastri announced his war agenda &#8220;India will choose a front of her own choice.&#8221; While another military encounter with China was considered a very remote chance, Pakistan would be the ultimate target of Indian Strategic designs at large, a clear writing was on the wall!

As another war was imminent on account of Kashmir s&#8217; issue with India, Western and Eastern Punjab would be the centre of gravity during the Indo-Pak conflict. Any political venture will open the flood gates of the war. The main battle for Pakistan would be fought in the lands of Punjab and Kashmir. More over the next war would be a matter of survival for Pakistan and the Air Force was supposed to put most decisive contribution for the next Indo-Pak war on Kashmir.


The IAF s' numerical superiority in terms of air war machines & infrastructure as a consequence,these two major factors were cardinal in designing the PAF s' Air War Plan June, 1965:-


A. That the IAF s'operational assests must be attacked at its bases to reduce its numerically superiority, thereby creating an equitable balance of air power.


B. That the IAF can not be allowed the luxury of a surprise air attack,because that could render the PAF ineffective and the skies would be under enemy s' air control, leaving the army and the navy at its mercy.


Consequently, the PAF high command needed to contemplate tactically offensive deployment. Pre-Emption was therefore, to be an imperative for the PAF, rather a mere contigency plan.

Strategic Mission:-

The ultimate milestone of the PAF was to neutralize selected very vital elements of the Indian Air Force by undertaking massive pre-emptive air strikes in strength against them in order to reduce the margin of superiority of the IAF, Thereby preventing it from gaining air superiority in air battle against PAF and as well effectively providing air support missions for Pakistan Army in the land battles.

The Counter Air Operation :-

When numerical superiority was heavily tilted in favour of the Indian Air Force. A bold and meticulous operational plan envisaged initiative on the outbreak of Indo-Pak war by launching sustained and wide spread pre-emptive air strikes/ sorties after sorties by the PAF over the enemy air bases, radars and military targets, would ultimately bottle up major portion of the enemy Air Force in defensive posture and in doing so also to ensure PAF s&#8217; operational employment for any subsequent land-air operations.

The strategic mission of the PAF was to achieve a high degree of air superiority through counter air operation at the outset of the war. It was a firm determination on the part that found the Air Force getting ever ready and able to decisively achieve air superiority in the first two days of the 1965 war. 

The Anti Surface Force Operation:-

Primarily, No air support plans for the Pakistan Army had at all intended to be set aside during the preliminary rounds of the air battle with IAF. Over the just past twelve months the Air Headquarters had however, came to appreciate a possible requirement by the Army for direct air support from the very outset of hostilities. An up date feature of the plan was that a fighter bomber wing of F-86s was earmarked for the air support missions.

Rann of Kutch:-

On 5thApril,1965 The Indian Army set out to capture the disputed Rann of Kutch territory by launching three infantry brigades. The Pakistan Army took precaution of moving into an area between Chaad Bet and Biar Bet, to prevent the Indian forces from attempting the complete military occupation of Rann. The limited scale Rann of Kutch military duel between Indian and Pakistan Armies provided an opportunity to the Air Force to test and up date its air war planning and operational preparations accordingly. 

Although the Air Force was not called upon to actively join the Kutch operations, but it was fully mobilized to face the eventual threat from enemy. In the light of the armed flare up in the area, The PAF s&#8217; High Command swiftly made operational preparations to react immediately, assuming that the enemy Air Force could have committed to battle operations. 

The Air Force red alert directly concerned two major air bases-Mauripur was to cover the Rann of Kutch in the south and Sargodha was to keep an eye on the IAF line up at Pathankot, Adampur and Halwara in the north.

The Indian Air Force had deployed following Squadrons operating from southern sector at :-

A. Jamnagar air base

One Fighter Recce Squadron

One Fighter Bomber Squadron

One Canberra Bomber Squadron

One Gnat Fighter Detachment

B. Poona air base

One Maritime Recce Squadron

Two Vampire Fighter Squadrons

One Canberra Bomber Squadron

However, The Pakistan Air Force deployment in the southern sector enjoyed qualitative edge considered to be a fair match for the numerically superior enemy air force.

Operation Desert Hawk:-

Under the operational command order issued by the Air Force Headquarters code name &#8220;Desert Hawk&#8221; Mauripur air base, located near Karachi, had assumed its full war status and was ready for any eventuality that might emerge. Since April 8th 1965 all operational aircraft at both the air bases were ordered to operate from wartime dispersals in combat readiness and their operations rooms like the air defence operations centre at air headquarters were to be manned round the clock. The following operational steps reflected its state of readiness:-

Operational Profile:-

1. Four F-86s and four F-104s armed with sidewinder missiles (GAR-8) were shifted from Sargodha air base and deployed at Mauripur air base for air defence missions.

2. Six F-86s & two B-57s operating from Mauripur air base were kept at one hour readiness for close support or strike missions if required.

3. Ack Ack batteries were placed to their war time locations for the defence of the air bases.

4. All F-86 s&#8217; pilots, including undergoing training and staff courses, were recalled for active duties.

5. Group Captain Bukhari was attached to GHQ, Rawalpindi and Squadron Leader S.A.Changezi was attached to HQ 8th Division, Hyderabad to act as liaison officers.

6. Radars/Mobile observer units were deployed to war time locations.

7. Ground Combateer units were deployed at Mauripur air base and Early Warning & GCI Radar station at Badin for close range defence of installations.

8. The PAF was brought to at higher degree of readiness to timely counter the hostile designs of enemy air force.

Hot line communications:-

Meanwhile during the Rann of Kutch skirmishes, Air Marshal M Asghar Khan, Commander-in Chief Pakistan Air Force contacted his counter part in the Indian Air Force telling Air Chief Marshal Arjan Singh that it would be prudent to have an agreement of keeping both the Air Forces away from local conflict of Rann because, if the IAF attacked the Pakistan Army in the Rann of Kutch areas, the PAF would feel free to retaliate any where and in any manner it saw fit, and this could lead to an immediate escalation of the local conflict beyond predictable dimensions.

Although IAF s&#8217; Air Chief Marshal Arjan Singh could hardly be expected to give a positive response to such a proposal, he clearly heeded the implied threat; the Indian Air Force did indeed stay away from the Rann of Kutch battle areas and this proved to be of great advantage to the Pakistan Army s&#8217; military duel with Indian Army.

Wing Commander Zulfiqar Ali Khan (Later Chief of the Air Staff Air Chief Marshal) was Air Adviser to the High Commission for Pakistan in New Delhi, India, reported in a letter to C-in-C PAF dated 19th April 1965, that the IAF s&#8217; High Command was disturbed over the PAF s&#8217; requirement of keeping the air above the disputed area clear of all aerial activities. He wrote ,&#8221;They (the IAF senior officers) were visibly disturbed at the receipt of your message. Air Marshal M. M. Engineer wanted to know if IAF s&#8217; Transport or Helicopter aircraft could go on supply missions to Indian Army posts in the area. I replied that we would consider any Indian aircraft entering disputed territory as violation of our air space.&#8221; 

The Air Adviser further stated, &#8221;I was asked if we were going to use fighter aircraft to stop air supply missions to Indian Army posts.&#8221;

At the same time, Air Headquarters sensing hostile air threat from enemy s&#8217; Air Force in the southern sector; acted imaginatively, issued Command Orders that were flashed for hot scramble of PAF interceptor fighters in the event of an IAF aircraft crossing into Pakistan territory. 

&#8220;The Indian fighter bomber aircraft were to be shot down with in 10 nautical miles into Pakistan territory; However military transport aircraft were to be forced down at the nearest PAF air bases around Karachi.&#8221;

First IAF s&#8217; fighter aircraft forced down by F-86s:- 

An IAF fighter crossed the international border near Rann of Kutch and set its course towards PAF s&#8217; Early Warning & Ground Controlled Interception Radar network at Badin on 24th June, 1965. 

An unexpected track appeared over the radar scopes in and around Badin. A command order was flashed to Mauripur air base to &#8220;scramble&#8221; F-86s. An ever vigilant F-86s pair scrambled from air base to intercept the enemy fighter. The Ground Controlled Interception Radar vectored F-86s pair towards Badin areas. Finally, the PAF s&#8217; F-86s had successfully forced down IAF Ouragan fighter aircraft from 51 Auxiliary Squadron operating from IAF Jamnagar, which was on an aerial reconnaissance mission over Badin. 

Indian pilot Flt.Lt. Rana Lal Chand got released on the occasion of 14th August Independence day by the Government of Pakistan.

The Rann of Kutch emergency period was very efficiently handled through operation Desert Hawk by Air Marshal M Asghar Khan, Commander-in Chief Pakistan Air Force and his air staff including Assistant Chief of Air Staff (Operations) Air Commodore Rahim Khan and Director Operations Group Captain Zafar Chaudhry. Although the operational exercise proved to be the curtain raiser to the September war with India.

Whereas the PAF stood guard during the emergency period of operation &#8220;Desert Hawk&#8221;, Air Headquarters finalized and issued &#8220; Air War Plan&#8221; on June 29, 1965 to all units,squadrons,wings,bases & commands. 

Air War Plan of June , 1965:-

The Air Strategy of the Air War Plan of June , 1965. was worked for Counter Air Operations on top most priority and then undertaking Anti Surface Force Operations in the gradual phase of the air battle of Pakistan, Sargodha and Peshawar were to be the two major operational nucleolus for air war operations against India posing direct threat to major air bases of the IAF. 

Sargodha air base operating , in conjunction with high powered Early Warning & Ground Controlled Interception radars system at Sakesar was the major centre of the PAF s&#8217; entire air defence network in the northern and western sectors. However, Size of the force and lack of material resources prohibited any large scale dispersal of the PAF and denied to it much of the flexibility needed for its air operations.

Peshawar air base a bomber wing nucleolus was planned to deploy and to operate B-57s bomber wing for major night bombing operations along with Risalpur air base, using Samungali air base as stand by junction for rearming and refueling the bomber formations.

Offensive Counter Air Operation & Air Strike Missions Profile :-

The Air Force s&#8217; original counter air /air strike plan therefore covered the entire string of IAF s&#8217; air bases from Srinagar in the north up to Jamnagar in the south, along with Western borders with India. 

The depth of the air strikes, dependent mainly on the radius of action at tree top level to avoid enemy radar&#8216;s detection, extended up to Ambala air base in the case of aircraft operating from West Pakistan, and to Kalaikunda air base near Calcutta for aircraft operating from Dacca in East Pakistan.

IAF Battle Deployment before 1965 War:-

Whereas, numerically superior Indian Air Force faced no such limitations and operational constraints. The formidable fighter bomber force deployed at Pathankot, Adampur, Ambala,Agra and Halwara, the availability of large immediate reserves and the flexible choice of air operations from any number of integrated jet air bases, provided them a superiority and dynamic advantage in any course of action they wished to follow.

Mysteres:

No. 1 Sqn

No. 3 Sqn

No. 8 Sqn

No. 31 Sqn

No. 32 Sqn 

Hunters:

No. 7 Sqn

No. 27 Sqn

No. 20 Sqn

No. 14 Sqn (East)

No. 17 Sqn (East)

No. 37 Sqn (East) 

Gnats:

No. 2 Sqn

No. 9 Sqn

No. 23 Sqn

Canberra:

No. 5 Sqn

No. 16 Sqn (East)

No. 35 Sqn

No. 106 SPR Sqn

Jet Bomber Conversion Unit Other Types:

No. 28 Sqn - MiG-21

No. 45/220 Sqn - Vampire

No. 24 Sqn - Vampire (East)

No. 4 Sqn - Ouragan (East) 

&#8226; IAF Western Air Command ( Air Vice Marshal R. Rajaram)

o Pathankot (Gp. Capt. Roshan Suri) 

&#61607; No.28 MiG-21 (Small Dett: 2) (Wg. Cdr. MSD Wollen) >>> Moved to Adampur 

&#61607; No.45/No.220 Vampire (Sqn. Ldr. SK Dahar) >>> Moved to Hindon 

&#61607; No.3 Mystere (Wg. Cdr. Paul Ruby) 

&#61607; No.31 Mystere (Wg. Cdr. WM Goodman) 

&#61607; No.23 Gnat (Dett: 8 under S/L J W Greene) 

o Halwara (Gp. Capt. GKK John) 

&#61607; No.7 Hunter (Wg. Cdr. ATRH Zachariah) 

&#61607; No.27 Hunter (Wg. Cdr. Jog) 

&#61607; No.20 Hunter (Dett: 4-6 under S/L B K Bishnoi att to No.7 Later) 

&#61607; No.2 Gnat (Dett: 4 under S/L R Dhawan - Later W/C Bharat Singh) 

o Adampur (Gp. Capt. WVA Lloyd) 

&#61607; No.1 Mystere (Wg. Cdr. OP Taneja) 

&#61607; No.8 Mystere (Wg. Cdr. Milikins) 

&#61607; No.28 MiG-21 (Dett: 4) 

o Ambala (Gp. Capt. DE Bouchier) 

&#61607; No.2 Gnat (Main Dett: 8) (Wg. Cdr. Bharat Singh) 

&#61607; No.23 Gnat (Main Dett.) (Wg. Cdr. S. Raghavendran) 

o Agra 

&#61607; No.5 Canberra (Wg. Cdr. PP Singh) 

&#61607; No.35 Canberra (Wg. Cdr. Bakshish Singh) 

&#61607; No.2 Gnat (Dett: 4) 

o Hindon 

&#61607; No.20 Hunter (Main Dett.) (Wg. Cdr. Amrit Lal Bajaj) 

&#8226; IAF Eastern Air Command ( Air Vice Marshal Shivdev Singh)

o Kalaikonda (Gp. Capt. MB Naik) 

&#61607; No.14 Hunter (Wg. Cdr. DA La Fontaine) 

&#61607; No.16 Canberra (Wg. Cdr. PM Wilson) >>> Moved to WAC Agra 

&#61607; No.24 Vampire (Sqn. Ldr. M. Banerji) 

o Baghdogra (Wg. Cdr. MB Singh) 

o Hashimara 

&#61607; No.4 Ouragan (Sqn. Ldr. MM Singh) 

o Chabua 

&#61607; No.17 Hunter 

o Gauhati 

&#61607; No.37 Hunter (Wg. Cdr. McNeil) >>> Moved to WAC 

Notes: 

1. No.45/220 Vampire squadron was an amalgamated unit with 16 Vampires under the command of a Sqn. Ldr.

2. No.28 MiG-21 squadron had only nine aircraft as establishment. 

Offensive Counter Air Operation & PAF Operational Deployment:-

Since the F-86 was the chief weapon system and mainstay of Pakistan Air Force. The F-86 fighter bomber aircraft was to play the major operational role in accordance with air war plan entailed extensive utilization on very massive level.

PAF fighter bomber squadrons of F-86s were required to operate from Peshawar, Sargodha, Lahore and Mauripur air bases against enemy air bases of Srinagar, Jammu, Pathankot, Adampur, Halwara,Ambala in the northern sector,Jhodpur, Bhuj and Jamnagar in southern sector and Radar installations at Amritsar, Ferozpur, Patiala and Ambala in the northern sector and Porbander in the southern sector. 

With in theses strike missions each F-86s formation of eight aircraft was allocated an alternative target.

PAF Battle Deployment before 1965 War:-

F-86s Sabre Fighter Bomber & Interceptors)

No. 5 Sqn

No. 11 Sqn

No. 14 Sqn

No. 15 Sqn

No. 16 Sqn

No. 17 Sqn

No. 18 Sqn

No. 19 Sqn 

B-57s MartinMedium Night Bomber)

No. 7 Sqn

No. 8 Sqn

No. 24 Sqn (Elint/ECM/ESM/Phographic & Reconnaissance)

F-104s Star fighter(Mach 2 Interceptor)

No. 9 Sqn

T-33: Advanced Training Jet

No. 20 (Photograpic & Reconnaissance)

No. 2 Sqn 

SA-16: Grumman Albatross Amphibious Maritime Reconnaissance

No. 4 Sqn 

Tactical Transport & Communication

No. 6 Sqn ( Hercules C-130s)

No.12 Sqn

West Pakistan:-

o Sargodha (Gp. Capt. M.Z.Masud) 

&#61607; No.5 Sqn F-86 (Sqn. Ldr. Sarfraz A. Rafiqui

&#61607; No.9 Sqn F-104 ( Sqn. Ldr. M. L. Middlecoat)

&#61607; No.11 Sqn F-86 (Sqn. Ldr. M.M.Alam) 

&#61607; No.15 Sqn F-86 (Sqn. Ldr. M Arshad) 

&#61607; No.20 Sqn R T-33 (Sqn. Ldr. M.M.Ahmed) 

o Mauripur (Gp. Capt. Khaqan Abbasi) 

&#61607; No.7 Sqn B-57s (Sqn. Ldr. Najeeb A. Khan) Later moved to Peshawar in September 1965. 

&#61607; No.8 Sqn B-57s (Sqn. Ldr. Rais A. Rafi) Later moved to Peshawar in September 1965. 

&#61607; No.16 Sqn F-86 (Sqn.Ldr. A.A.Randhawa) 

&#61607; No.17 Sqn F-86 (Sqn. Ldr. A. Daudpota) Later shifted to Sargodha in September. 

&#61607; No.18 Sqn F-86 (Sqn. Ldr. Alauddin Butch) Later shifted to Sargodha in September. 

&#61607; No.2 Sqn T-33 (Sqn. Ldr. Khurshid A. Mirza) Later a Dett of 4 moved to Sargodha

&#61607; No.4 Sqn SA-16 (Sqn. Ldr. Afsar K. Jadoon)

o Peshawar (Wing. Cdr. Amanullah) 

&#61607; No.19 Sqn F-86 (Sqn. Ldr. S. Sajjad Haider) 

&#61607; No.24 Sqn RB-57Fs (Sqn. Ldr. M. Iqbal) 

o Chaklala (Gp. Capt. E.G.Hall) 

&#61607; No.6 Sqn C-130s (Wing. Cdr. A Masood Khan) 

&#61607; No.12 Sqn Comp/Transport (Sqn. Ldr.M. M.Suhail) 

o Risalpur ( Gp. Capt. C.R.Nawaz)

&#61607; Trainers Sqn T-6Gs Harvard (Sqn. Ldr. M.Yunis) 

East Pakistan:- 

o Dacca (Gp. Capt. Ghulam Haider) 

&#61607; No.14 Sqn F-86 (Sqn. Ldr. Shabbir H. Syed) 

Notes: 

1. No.4 S-16 maritime reccee squadron had only four aircraft.

2. No.24 RB-57F Elint squadron had only four aircraft. 

3. No.20 RT-33 squadron had only six aircraft

4. Every air base had its one T-33.

5. Four Bristal Freighter Transport aircraft kept in stores were readied to join C-130s.

Offensive Counter Air Operation & Operational Methodology:-

The air strike F-86s force was required to fly at tree top level, as to remain beneath the IAF s&#8217; Radar Stations.

Each F-86s formation of 8 aircraft was required to attack IAF s&#8217; air base, exclusively using six machine guns fire destroying enemy aircraft on priority.

Each F-86s formation of 8 aircraft was required to undertake 2-3 strafing runs on enemy targets for each mission/sortie.

The time over target (TOT) for each mission on the first day of opening hostilities, was defined to be 15 minutes before sunset.

The critical issue of the timing of the initial air strike missions by the fighter bomber force of F-86s before sun set was determined through lengthy debates held at High Command Level in the light of material factors and numerical superiority in favour of the Indian Air Force. 

These were the major factors why the PAF High Command chose the timing of air strike missions 15 minutes before sunset:-

Timing of the first air strike missions:-

1. The Pakistan Air Force, a small air force countering a numerically superior the Indian Air Force , would not have the capability to deliver a decisive crippling blow in a single assault and could well provoked large scale enemy air force massive retaliation by resorting to one. Therefore, the timing selection in the early morning was not considered for initial air strike missions.

2. Since Second World War, air strike missions are carried out at dawn, as anticipated the numerically superior IAF would be ever vigilant to face the adversary. Several flights of Hunters, Gnats and Mysteres deployed at air bases on air defence alert duty would be waiting at the end of the runways on five minute alert at dawn since morning. It was carefully calculated to be most unlikely that they would have stayed at this state of readiness indefinitely.

3. The IAF state of alert would have past its peak, when no air raids had materialized with in two to three hours since dawn the IAF would more than likely have lessened the high alert and switched off some of the radars.

4. Therefore, air strike missions carried out against IAF major air bases 15 minutes before sunset by the PAF would achieve an element of complete surprise, pulverizing the enemy in a state of shock and nerve shattering blow by delivering devastating blitzkrieg.

5. The major portion of the Indian Air Force would suppose to be caught on the ground.

6. By carrying out a dusk air strike missions 15 minutes before sunset, on the other hand, The PAF would be safe from an immediate counter attacks from enemy air force; It could sustain enemy pressure during the night relatively safely and would reasonably well prepared by the next morning to face reprisals as also ready to deliver further air strike missions against enemy air force.

The air strike missions operating except from Peshawar air base, were to be repeated the next day, making 15 minutes before sun rise as their time over target. From Mauripur air base, four T-33s were also configured to supplement the F-86s formations for air strike missions.

Lahore air base located nearest to the Indian border was to be activated for occasional operational utilization since first week of the war at short notice. Two formations of eight F-86s each from Mauripur and Peshawar air bases were to move in there at six hours notice, thereby assembling a single largest formation of 16 aircraft for initial air strike mission against Ambala airbase to be led by Sqn Ldr Sajad Haider OC 19 Sqn along with Sqn Ldr Waqar Azim OC 17 Sqn, as a staging air base. The Lahore runway lenght was 6000 feet, therefore both the F-86s formations were to be ensured fully operational on the runway day and night taking off and landing practice as per specific order issued by C-in-C Air Marshal M. Asghar Khan in a mission briefing held at Air Headquarters on June 28, 1965.

The F-86s Squadron operating from Dacca air base, East Pakistan was required to strike enemy major air base at Kalaikunda, located near Calcutta by dawn only on the very next day of the Indo-Pak war.

The major portion of the fighter bomber F-86s Squadrons force was to be deployed at Sargodha air base as a main nucleolus of air strike and other operational missions, leaving one F-86s Squadron each at Peshawar, Mauripur and Dacca air bases.

Offensive Counter Air Operation & Night Bombing Missions Profile:-

The paramount mission of the B-57s Bomber Wing night bombing operations was to deny the numerically superior Indian Air Force, Thereby to sustain the pressure of the fighter bomber F-86s force s&#8217; air strike missions at dusk, the PAF s&#8217; Bomber Wing of B-57s operating from Mauripur and Peshawar was to bomb enemy aircraft on the ground, runways, hangars, fuel and ammunition dumps at major IAF s&#8217; air bases at Jamnagar, Adampur, Halwara and Pathankot through out the first night of the air operations, starting at 2030 and ending an hour before sun rise the next day. 

The Bomber B-57s s&#8217; formation recovering at Sargodha air base after their first air strike mission at Adampur and Halwara were to turnaround and leave for Agra and Palm air bases. 

The Bomber formations recovering at Peshawar air base were to make a second bombing run to Adampur and Halwara; or hit the enemy aircraft parked at Ambala and Chandigarh air bases as alternatives.

Old work horse propeller training aircraft in action:-

The Harvard T-6Gs Training Squadron from Risalpur air base was required to harass the Indian Army on the first night in the areas; Amritsar-Jullunder axis and Ferozpur-Ludhiana axis operating from Chaklala & Lahore as staging air bases, assigned mission of night offensive road recce. 

The operational utilization of the Harvard aircraft was fully studied and its operational missions in the coming September war could be attributed to the Operation Desert Hawk.

Defensive Counter Air Operation & Air Defence Command Profile:-

As per Air War Plan of June , 1965., the Air Defence Battle of West and East Pakistan during the hostilities with India was to be commanded by Air Officer Commanding(AOC) Air Defence, as per requirement of the emerging air war scenario, from the Interceptor fighters force detailed at its disposal. The force comprised the following squadrons, as Sargodha air base would be the major centre of gravity during war.

1. One F-104s Squadron armed with sidewinder missiles (GAR-8) deployed at Sargodha airbase.

2. One F-86s Squadron armed with sidewinder missiles (GAR-8) deployed at Sargodha airbase.

A formation of four F-86s Interceptor fighters armed with sidewinder missiles (GAR-8) was also earmarked for Peshawar airbase along with another formation of four F-86s Interceptor fighters armed with sidewinder missiles (GAR-8) would be sent to Mauripur airbase simultaneously from Sargodha air base. Apart from this, a portion of the F-86s Squadrons operating from Peshawar, Mauripur and Dacca were also assigned to air defence missions.

A Meticulous Air War Plan !

From critical prospective and analysis, An intricate air war plan that had all the elements of dynamic approach, daring initiative and surprise which are essential for success in a strategic situation tilted heavily in favour of the superior enemy Air Force. The meticulous air war plan was contemplated by Air Marshal Muhammad Asghar Khan Commander-in-Chief, PAF and his Air Staff on the employment of the Pakistan Air Force in the air defense battle for Pakistan. It was kept up-to-date and modified as strategic circumstances demanded.

Offensive Counter Air Operation s&#8217; inherent advantages:-

A. Offensive Operation allows the attacker to seize the initiative, capitalize the optimum level capabilities of the Air Force and concentrate strength Vs weakness.

B. It carries the air war to the enemy centre of nucleolus, reduces the number of offensive sorties that numerically superior enemy Air Force can mount and forces enemy Air Force to detailed a substantial portion of its total air force s&#8217; Squadrons to dedicated defensive operations.

C. It can better exploit the three dimensions space of the skies, the vagaries of light and weather and the masking effect of terrain.

D. It denies the enemy air force a sanctuary. 

The Strategic Parametres/Levels of the Air War Plan June, 1965 were thoroughly been worked out in advance as well keeping the operational levels of the air bases, wings & squadrons through periodic exercises at par with strategic milestone of the air battle for Pakistan:-

1. Offensive Counter Air Operation

2. Defensive Counter Air Operation

3. Anti Surface Force Operation

Although some tactical level changes and up dates were made by Air Marshal M Nur Khan, C-in-C, the PAF in the light of imminent air battle scenario with enemy air force , thereby activating Air Force on phase-I, II & III during August 1965

The ultimate success of a war plan depends not so much on the plan itself, as upon the human response which the actual situation evokes Courage, Dedication, Sacrifice, Inspiring Leadership and Accurate timely Judgment form part of no man made plan, but it is these very attributes which, in moments of critical danger and anxiety, manifest or absent themselves to tilt the balance of divine fate between success and failure, victory and defeat in the annals of air warfare.

The war plan would have been put on supreme test during the Indo-Pak war with in three months by the highly trained, highly disciplined, and motivated professional Air Force against the numerically superior enemy Air Force.

The Pakistan Air Force rose to the decisive air battle for Pakistan under this air war plan during the Indo-Pak War of 1965 and returned with flying colours, registering its name in golden words in the annals of air warfare. 

Pakistani Nation s&#8217; debt to its Air Force &#8220;Those wonderful young men&#8217;: Never have so many owed so much to so few.&#8221;

Bibliography:-

1.&#8220;The Story of the Pakistan Air Force 1988.By: Shaheen Foundation ,Islamabad.&#8221;

2.&#8220;The History of the Pakistan Air Force 1947-1982.By: Shabbir Hussain & Sqn Ldr. M.Tariq Qureshi.&#8221;

3.&#8221; Battle for Pakistan&#8221; The Air War of 1965. by: John Fricker 

4. &#8220;The First Round&#8221; By Air Marshal M. Asghar Khan,C-in-C,The Pakistan Air Force

5. The Story of the Indian Air Force&#8221;Bharat Rakshak&#8221;

6.&#8221; A History of the Pakistan Army&#8221; by: Col.Brian Cloughley

7. &#8220;Memoirs&#8221; by: Lt. General Gul Hassan,C-in-C,The Pakistan Army

8.&#8221; Fiza&#8217;yasyche of The Pakistan Air Force&#8221; by.Singh & R.Rakhye

Copyright © Arshad Hussain.


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## airomerix

^Nice sharing.


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## fatman17

Sunday, September 12, 2010


*PAF s Bomber Wing of B-57s* 





A tribute to those B-57s pilots & navigators, Who executed night bombing missions flying at tree top level on pitch dark nights, carried the war deep into the enemy's heartland, few lionhearted could not return to motherland and embraced shahadat in the line of duty leaving behind a supreme tradition alive Mission First.


Preamble:-

Its an untold story of Pakistan Air Force s No 31 Bomber Wing of B-57s comprising No 7th & 8th Squadrons during 1965 & 1971 Indo-Pak Wars. Although long before the outbreak of hostilities in 1971, No 31 Bomber Wing was non existent and the valiant No 8th Squadron had also been number plated because of US Government embargo on military hardware and supplies, but its pilots & navigators took active part by joining No 7th Squadron in the war of 1971, operating from Masroor and Mianwali air bases.

In August 1982, finally all the remaining B-57s of No 7th Squadron were transferred to No 2 Squadron, adding yet role of night interdiction and special missions to unit s assignment until retirement this reliable workhorse B-57 from meritorious service from PAF. Another chapter has been added to highlight the commendable performance and missions of low profile, stealth unit of PAF s No 24th Elint Squadron operating RB-57Fs & RB-57Bs during and after war of 1965.

The B-57 Bomber nicknamed Baba has been serving the Pakistan Air Force for more than 25 years as a weapons delivery platform, conventional weapons bomber, high altitude aerial reconnaissance, electronic counter & support measures and tow target aircraft as well as being the mainstay for the Air Force. This story is dedicated to the bold and devoted aircrew, maintenance and support personnel of the bomber wing who knew the dream workhorse B-57 and were part of its sorties and missions during peace and wars of 1965 and 1971. It is a beginning with the hope that those who were a part of the Bomber Wing will contribute to the growth of this effort by providing original photos and record of the missions. Since another chapter about the Indo-Pak war of 1971 is under process.

USAF & Operational Background of Martin B-57Bs:-

The Pakistan Air Force was one of the major users of the B-57s except USAF,NASA and National Republic of China Air Force.

(Taiwan) The US Air Force considered the B-57B inadequate for the night intruder role and Martin puting all aircraft through an extensive avionics upgrade. Regardless, by the end of 1957 the USAF tactical squadrons were being re-equipped with supersonic F-100 Super Sabres. The complete retirement was delayed, however, by the start of the Vietnam War.The deployment of B-57Bs from 8th and 13th Bomb Squadrons to Bien Hoa began with three aircraft lost in collisions on arrival. An additional five aircraft were destroyed with another 15 damaged by a Viet Cong mortar attack in November 1964. The first combat mission by the US Air Force s B-57Bs was not flown until 19 February 1965, with the first excursion into North Vietnam taking place on 2 March as part of Operation Rolling Thunder. 

The aircraft typically carried 9 x 500 lb (227 kg) bombs in the bomb bay and 4 x 750 lb (340 kg) bombs under the wings. In April 1965, B-57Bs began flying night intruder missions supported by C-123 Provider or C-130 Hercules flare ships and EF-10B Skyknight electronic warfare aircraft. On missions extending into North Vietnam, B-57Bs carried their own flares. On 16 May 1965, an armed B-57B exploded on the runway at Bien Hoa setting off a chain reaction that destroyed ten other aircraft, eleven A-1 Skyraiders, and one F-8 Crusader. Due to combat attrition, in October 1966 B-57Bs were transferred to Phan Rang where they supported operations in the Iron Triangle along with Australian Canberra B.20s. The aircraft also continued to fly night interdiction missions against the Ho Chi Minh trail. Of the USAF s 94 B-57Bs deployed to Southeast Asia, 51 were lost in combat and only 9 were still flying by 1969. As the result, the all B-57Bs were withdrawn from USAF sservice.

Two RB-57As were used by the National Republic of China Air Force for reconnaissance missions over People's Republic of China. One of these was shot down by a Chinese Air Force MiG-19 on 18th February1958. Two other RB-57As were used by the Federal Aviation Administration to plan high-altitude airways for the upcoming jet passenger aircraft.

US Military Aid Package:-

During a visit to Pakistan, US President Dwight D. Eisenhower promised to provide the government of Pakistan with modern jet bombers under US Military Aid Package. 

The No 31st Bomber Wing to formed 7th & 8th Bomber Squadrons:-

PAF s B-57 Bombers force began its maiden flight joining Air Force inventory since 27th November,1959. Whereas, twenty four B-57Bs and two B-57Cs inactivated from US Air Force 345th Tactical Bomber Group at Langley AFB in Virginia were ferried to Mauripur air base in Karachi, Pakistan to form the 7th & 8th Bomber Squadrons of the 31st Bomber Wing of the Pakistan Air Force on 11th May 1960.

Our Air Force made very extensive operational use of the B-57B bomber in two wars with India. In the Indo-Pak War of 1965,B-57s force logged 195 operational sorties, dropping over 600 tons of bombs against IAF air bases,radar stations and military targets. Three B-57s of the Bomber Wing were lost in action but out of these, only one due to enemy action. First B-57 spiloted by Squadron Leader Alam Siddiqui & navigator Squadron Leader Aslam Qureshi dived into the sea over IAF air base Jamnagar misjudging the height through the thin layers of clouds or getting spatially disoriented, on the early night of 7th September. The 2nd B-57 was shot down over IAF air base Adampur piloted by Flt.Lt.Altaf Sheikh & navigator Flt. Lt. Bashir Chaudhy through enemy ack ack batteries on 14th September .The 3rd B-57 piloted by Flt.Lt Mehmood Butt & navigator Flt. L.t Khalid crashed on the Risalpur air base runway because of bad weather on 17th September. 

Whereas one RB-57B electronics intelligence aircraft piloted by Squadron Leader Muhammad Iqbal OC of No 24th Elint Squadron was shot down by Pakistan Army s ack ack battery during a bombing practice mission on a PAF s radar unit near Rahwali,Gujranwala. In the Indo-Pakistan War of 1971, There was a higher attrition rate with at least five B-57s being put out of service by the end of the war.

Martin B-57B in PAF 

The US Glenn. L. Martin B-57B a first generation of jet bomber was a tandem 2 seat, twin engines, night intruder or tactical, all weather long-range bomber, its crew consisted of a pilot and a navigator, carrying a payload of 56 rockets, 4 x 20mm cannons and 8000 lbs. of bombs, 2 turbo jets engines, fired by cartridge starters powered the aircraft. It was very large in size, having a length and wingspan of 65 feet, which meant virtually no maneuverability. Its speed was 570 mph, ceiling height 45,000 feet and ferry range 2656 miles with max load. The PAF B-57s pilots prefer to fly hardly above 200-500 feet in order to avoid enemy radar detection during wars of 1965 and 1971. 

However, once over the IAF targets they would pull up to about 7000-8000 feet to make an accurate dive position on targets, from where they would release bombs over the targets with pin point accuracy and precision. 

RB-1A all-weather bombing system for PAF sB-57s:-

At first, these bombers were not equipped with an all-weather bombing system as had been originally planned. From 1963, all of the PAF s B-57Bs were retrofitted with the RB-1A all-weather bombing system which gave them a somewhat longer nose shape than that of standard USAF B-57Bs. Some of the B-57s were also fitted with under wing points for the carriage of four extra fuel tanks, which gave them sufficient range to reach distant military targets well inside India. 

The No 24th Electronic Intelligence Squadron:-

In addition, two General Dynamics/Martin-RB-57Fs ultra-high-altitude reconnaissance aircraft were also supplied to Pakistan Air Force in the early 1960s. The RB-57Fs was known as droopy because of enormous 122 ft wingspan and capable to fly at the cruising height of 80,000 ft beyond the range of enemy interceptors and SAMs of that period. This was state of art highly specialized aircraft for ECM/ESM missions. The No 24th Elint squadron operated the RB-57Fs along with two RB-57Bs for electronic counter & support measures missions and photographic surveillance missions against IAF during and after the war of 1965.These aircraft extensively over flew most of the IAF air bases up to Ambala at the height of 67000ft or more to carry out monitoring/ reconnaissance missions. The following missions were assigned to the No 24 Elint squadron deployed at Peshawar air base:-

Operational Missions Profile:-

1. Low level homing on to enemy radars.

2. Monitoring of enemy radars for which daily surveillance was kept up to locate their grid reference as well as any change.

3. Monitoring & Jamming of enemy radio channels particularly for GCI transmissions.

Squadron Leader Muhammad Iqbal SJ was the first OC, who later embraced shahadat being Officer Commanding of No 24 Elint Squadron along with his navigator Saifullah Lodhi SJ during a bombing practice mission on a PAF sradar unit near Rahwali in the 1965 War.

Since the start of the 1965 war. The PAF s F-86s Sabre wing operating from Sargodha air base tried to neutralize the IAF Amritsar radar, but could not deliver accurate attacks due to difficulty experienced in triangulating the exact location of the radar system. Squadron Leader Iqbal floated a novel idea of locating the enemy radar by utilizing the electronic devices fitted RB-57 aircraft. He led in his electronic intelligence RB-57 as a pathfinder, a formation of four B-57s to Amritsar radar on a daylight bombing mission and did not seem to be satisfied with the practical results.

He, therefore, decided to make some practice attacks on a PAF s radar station deployed at Rahwali, near Gujranwala. Squadron Leader Muhammad Iqbal OC of No 24 Elint Squadron and his navigator Flt.Lt.Saifullah Lodhi were busy in making low dive bombing practice on radar station. The Army ack ack unit deployed around radar station opened fire on diving B-57 and shot it down, killing both the pilot and navigator. A first rate thorough professional, dedicated and lion hearted pioneer OC of No 24 Elint Squadron along with his outstanding professional navigator Saifullah Lodhi embraced shahadat during mid stream of the war. Both were awarded well deserved Sitara-e-Jurat posthumously. A very tragic loss of invaluable lives of pilot and navigator along with a specilized RB-57 aircraft and an incident that could have been avoided through timely liasion with Air Force and Army ack ack regiment.

If wing operation officer Squadron Leader Munir Ahmed SJ of F-86 Sabre wing would shed his blood for his noble air strike mission to destroy IAF radar station at Amritsar, Squadron Leader Muhammad Iqbal SJ OC of No 24 Elint Squadron and his navigator Flt.Lt.Saifullah Lodhi SJ were also there to shed their blood in the line of the duty.

Nest of the Eagles:-

Since its maiden flight, the No 31 Bomber Wing of B-57s along with its No 7 & 8 Squadrons was deployed at Mauripur air base, Karachi and was assigned the strategic role of airfield night bombing strikes and deep interdiction night missions against numerically superior Indian Air Force bases and military installations during war with India.

Mission & Scope of the B-57s Bomber Wing:-

The paramount mission of the B-57s Bomber Wing night bombing operations was to deny the numerically superior Indian Air Force, the operational utilization of its massive potential air power destroying air bases, runways, hangars, fuel and ammunition dumps and radar installations from where IAF was supposed to streamline air war efforts by launching fighter and bomber aircraft during eventual war with Pakistan. Since IAF maintained a very vast network of major airbases integrated with Russian state of art P-35 three dimension radar systems with Early Warning & GCI facilities along with the adjoining borders with enemy and was quite capable to extend its war efforts through flexible mode by virtue its geographical depth and large airfields infrastructure. A bold and offensive meticulous operational doctrine under The PAF Air War Plan of June 1962 for bomber wing was worked out by the Air Headquarters to counter the numerically superior IAF to fight the air war of Pakistan, keeping in the mind to take bold initiative on the outbreak of Indo-Pak war by launching sustained and wide spread night bombing sorties after sorties over the enemy air bases and military targets, would ultimately bottle up major portion of the Indian Air Force in defensive deployment. It was a strategic offensive plan of PAF s Commander-in-Chief Air Marshal Muhammad Asghar Khan, when numerical superiority was heavily tilted in favour of the enemy. The No 31 Bomber Wing being strategic wing of PAF, raised and trained for ultimate war with India during sixties under the dynamic and visionary leadership of its then Commander-in-Chief Air Marshal Muhammad Asghar Khan. As an Air Chief Air Marshal Muhammad Asghar Khan, whose sterling credentials and brand name has been marked on the PAF since August 15, 1947. A youngest inspiring air force commander with strategic vision and a distinguished jet fighter pilot for newly born Air Force.

Air Marshal Muhammad Asghar Khan a chief architect of Pakistan Air Force:-

Air Marshal Muhammad Asghar Khan has been chief architect of our modern fighter jet Air Force from teeth, to tail. Since July 1957 during his tenure, The air force inducted Korean battle tested fighter bomber F-86s, Martin B-57s bombers, supersonic F-104s star fighter, Hercules C-130s, advanced training jets T-33s and basic training jets T-37s, for search and rescue operations Sikorsky H-19D helicopters and SA-16 Albatross as well modern & state of art high powered early warning and surveillance radar systems of FPS-6 (height finder) & FPS-20 (surveillance). 

PAF on the path of Jet technology transformation:-

The Air Force had also begun inducting sidewinder air-to-air missiles (GAR-8 series) to its jet interceptor-fighters force. The entire infrastructure of the Air Force was planned to transforming from propeller aircraft force to jet aircraft force, an advanced technology transformation ahead of its time in the Indo-Pak Sub-Continent.

Apart from induction of the US origin hi-tech military hardware in the Air Force, The Air Chief and his Air Staff undertook the uphill task to transforming PAF s propeller aircraft force into a technologically advanced fighter jet air force in accordance with professional and operational training standards of the US Air Force on war footings. The US Air Force also provided its F-86 Sabre jets Vs MIGs air combat tactics/strategy profiles during Korean War of 1950-53 through bilateral training programs held in USA, West Germany and Pakistan. The key factor of this gigantic transformation program for the PAF was professional excellence through logging of highest jet flying hours by the fighter-bomber pilots, while maintaining highest degree of flight safety. 

Operational Standards for the Air Force:-

Air Marshal Asghar Khan himself played the role model of the fighter pilot by flying/checking out each and every aircraft including B-57 under his command setting finest operational standards for the air force. Thereby raising Squadrons after Squadron, as well imparting rigorous and perpetual professional gigantic training program for this newly advanced fighter jet air force in line with USAF s standards. The ultimate milestone worked out by Air Headquarters, getting its air force ever ready for eventual war on Kashmir with numerically superior Indian Air Force. The professional excellence in fighter flying of the PAF was duly acknowledged by the USAF, when state of art mach- 2 air superiority fighter F-104 were provided to PAF, although our air force was the only non NATO Air Force declared qualified to operate these advanced hi-tech fighter aircraft. 

The PAF had become razor sharp air war machine, ever ready to face any eventuality during war and peace, long before Air Marshal Asghar Khan got retired from Air Force in July 1965 handing over his command to another accomplished air warrior and bomber pilot of No 7th dive bomber Squadron Burma front bombing missions famed Air Marshal M Nur Khan. 

As Commander in Chief Air Marshal Nur Khan would command this highly trained, highly disciplined, and motivated professional air force during Indo-Pak war of 1965.

The ambitious night bombing training program of No 31 Bomber wing was remained under specific and direct supervision of Air Marshal Asghar Khan and his air staff. The selection criteria entailed hand picked and hard task commanding officers of the Air Force for this premiere wing. 

Gallery of Wing OCs:-

An Orion of star pilots detailed by the Air Headquarters for wing ever ready to go for action, beyond the call of the duty during war and peace, providing a dynamic leadership nucleus for professional and purpose built bomber wing training. The leaders No 31 Bomber Wing included Air Commodore Khaqan Abbasi, Air Commodore Nazir Latif, Air Vice Marshal A.H.Qureshi, Group Captain M.A. Dogar, Air Chief Marshal Zulfiqar A. Khan, Air Vice Marshal Mehmood Akhtar Bokhari and Air Commodore Rais A. Rafi. 

Gallery of Pilots & Navigators:-

The Bomber Wing s No 7 & 8 Squadrons were commanded by including Squadron Leaders of 7th Squadron Ayaz A. Khan (being the first OC), A.M.Lodhie, A. Shamim, Najeeb A. Khan, M.Akhtar, S.A.Rahman, Wing Commanders S.A.Ansari and M.Yunis and Squadron Leaders of 8th Squadron Leader Muhammad Iqbal (being the first OC), who later embraced shahadat being Officer Commanding of No 24 Elint Squadron in the 1965 War, S.A.Ansari, Rais A. Rafi, M.Zaman, M.K.Bashar as well as with a large number of Akhtars, Altafs, Alams, Aslams, Bashirs, Bashars, Basits, Bukharis, *****, Ghauris, Harneys, Iftikhars, Irfans. Khalids, Khans, Khusros, Kamals Mehmoods, Osmans, Peters, Qureshis, Shabbirs, Shams, Shoaibs, and Sikandar, etc. These brave and dedicated bomber pilots were commanding the wing and its squadrons through cockpit, following the first flying tradition of the PAF The Commander is up front!

Bomber Wing Training Profiles:-

The professional excellence and rigorous flying training profiles during day and night by The No 31 Bomber Wing and its crew culminated in the shape of undertaking of maximum number of night bombing sorties/missions after mission against heavily defended air bases of IAF and other military installations during the wars of 1965 and 1971.

The extensive night low level flying and weapons delivery training involved low level strikes from 1000ft above the ground level and dive bombing attacks from 8000 ft, releasing weapons at 4000ft and recovery at 2000ft. The night training program entailed through out night achieving 50% of the monthly flying hours done at night. The extensive day and night training profiles transformed B-57s a formidable force for its operational missions. Thereby maintaining its best turn around time by two B-57 bomber squadrons.

Highest Degree of Turn Around:

To achieve the highest degree of turn around by a heavy bomber B-57 in a couple of hours and to keep the bomber wing of 22 aircraft that was flying more than 2-3 sorties per aircraft per night in the air field strike missions, required tremendous technical skills and best coordinated war efforts by the bomber personnel as well the technical & logistics ground personnel of the wing deployed around the country on distant air bases of PAF. i.e. at Peshawar, Mauripur, Samungli, Risalpur and Sargodha etc. 

Operational Methodology:-

As major night operations program by the B-57s was conducted through Peshawar air base since 6th September, every bomber formation leaving for bombing mission against IAF air bases was suppose to return to alternate air base to ensure safety to rearm and refuel, and then to strike again before returning to base or to another safe air base. The standard operational procedure enabled B-57s force to be prepared to attack their targets night after night creating dynamic approach through flexible mode. By arriving over their targets in a stream at intervals of about 15-20 minutes, the B-57s certainly succeeded in hitting hard the IAF air bases again and again. As Peshawar and Risalpur air bases were also considered too vulnerable to IAF attacks during the nights. Therefore, Samungali and Mauripur air bases were also utilized for turn around. 

A successful and accurate night bombing mission is a reflection of overall bomber wing service efficiency-direct or in-direct flying up to targets through ever-vigilant enemy ack ack guns and missiles and fine blend of integration with friendly GCI radar system, navigation, communication, maintenance & technical personnel and bomber pilots & navigators etc.

Serviceability of Bomber Wing:-

At 1800 hours evening of the 6th September 1965,when first formation of six B-57s fully armed with 4x1000lb bombs, 56x2.75 rockets and full load of 4x20 mm cannons took off from air force base Mauripur setting its course for IAF base Jamnagar to undertake the first bombing mission against enemy. The serviceability of our bomber wing was around 99% and technical & logistics ground personnel of the wing maintained it through out the war. An engineering magic by those unsung heroes of the bomber wing under the command of Squadron Leader Aurangzeb Malik. Although it might have taken a couple of hours to patch up the holes in one or two of aircraft, at no stage was any of the B-57 aircraft was unserviceable. Excluding the aircraft losses and damages due to enemy or friendly ack ack fire or crashes. Never did the wing had the situation of bomber pilots waiting for the B-57s for next due operational sortie against enemy targets. A commendable chapter recorded by the wing and its technical & logistics personnel in the annals of air warfare.

Battle for Lahore and The F-86s Force strikes back:-

When the Indian Army launched multiple ground attacks on Lahore in the early hours of 6th September 1965.The war was declared and Government of Pakistan ordered PAF s High Command to carry out air war operations accordingly. The PAF s F-86s Force operating from Peshawar and Sargodha air bases responded swiftly by strafing and rocketing against advancing columns of Indian army s armor, artillery and infantry units from Batapur- Wagah-Atari axis. Since morning till evening containing enemy surprise offensive operations against Lahore, while Pakistan Army deployed in strength on BRB canal banks. 

The No 31 Bomber Wing & Night Bombing Missions Profile:-

Now The No 31 Bomber Wing along with its No 7 & 8 Squadrons rose to the occasion in accordance with its pre defined bombing operational doctrine worked out under the PAF Air War Plan of June 1965 with imaginative vision and intricate planning. The Wing operated as an independent and self-supporting arm of the air force undertaking night bombing missions after mission against IAF base Jamnagar to Jodhpur, Adampur, Halwara, Pathankot, Sirsa, Srinagar and Ambala, from the shores of the Arabian Sea to the foothills of the Himalayas. 

The night bombing campaign started by the wing on the dusk of 6th September by a formation of six B-57s dropping 24,000 lbs. of bombs and rockets on the IAF airbase Jamnagar and followed by IAF air base Adampur lasted till the last close support bombing mission undertaken by The Bomber Wing against Indian Army at Wagah-Atari axis on 22nd September 1965. B-57Bs force of 22 aircraft undertook a total 195 missions of day and night dropping more than 600 tons of bombs against IAF targets as compared to an estimated 92 night bombing sorties against PAF targets by more than 60 IAF Canberras.

The First Bombing Mission against Indian Air Force:-

Although a major portion of the Bomber Wing was already shifted to Peshawar as per operational doctrine. The remaining six aircraft were waiting at Mauripur air base, then an order received to launch attacks against Jamnagar at 1800 hours on 6th September 1965. The Wing Commander A.H.Qureshi led his bomber force of six B-57s along with Squadron Leader Rasi A. Rafi, Squadron Leader Alam Siddiqui , Squadron Leader Ansari, Flt Lt Rashid & Flt Lt Amin Khalil from air force base Mauripur in southern sector by launching bombing mission against IAF base Jamnagar. They carried out the first bombing attack of the war against IAF by opening bombing account of the PAF, extensively damaging runways and hangars. Rockets were also fired to hit hangars and buildings. The formation returned successfully with out encountering enemy ack ack firing and any loss. The lone B-57 would repeat air strike mission one after another until morning against IAF Jamnagar. A milkman shuttle service.

Catch Me if you can

The Wing Operations Officer Squadron Leader M.Akhtar Bukhari apart from engagement with operational and administrative matters at the air base also undertook the highly dangerous night flying mission over Indian air space to test and monitor the night interception capability of the Indian Air Force. 

After the start of the war with India, the PAF high command decided to check the night interception capability of the enemy air force during mid stream of the air battle by detailing lone B-57 flying over the Indian air space during the mid night. Valiant Sqn Ldr M.Akhtar Bukhari along with Flt Lt Basit volunteered to fly the mission impossible on the night of 8th September at high twelve hours. 

The B-57 No 885 piloted by him took off from Mauripur air base around mid night @ high 12 hours and after attaining cruising height of 35,000 ft headed its course @ 400 knots /hour towards enemy borders for IAF s Jodhpur air base, then reaching the target orbited the enemy air base for few minutes and finally turning its direction to wards north over enemy territory over flying one enemy air base including Amritsar and Pathankot after another.The aircraft took 2 hours & 40 minutes from take off till landing. 

The enemy air force through its high powered P-35 three dimension radar system with Early Warning & GCI facilities monitored the B-57 taking off from air force base Mauripur in the middle of the night over flying Indian air space for unknown mission from Jodhpur up to Pathankot and then heading for Peshawar. No enemy interceptor scrambled to check the B-57 in the mid stream of the night flying mission.

An open challenge was thrown to the trigger-happy interceptor-fighter pilots of the enemy for easy target, but enemy would not dare to intercept the highflying Eagle in the mid stream. Daredevil Sqn Ldr M.Akhtar Bukhari along with navigator Flt Lt Basit flew his assigned route/mission cool headedly over Indian air space and landed safely at air force base Peshawar, reporting back all clear.  A night mission impossible.

First Shaheeds of Bomber Wing:-

The Lionhearted Squadron Leader Shabir Alam Siddiqui & Squadron Leader Aslam Qureshi would undertake bombing missions after mission with in first night against IAF base Jamnagar, to inflict maximum damages to the enemy ultimately embraced Shahadat during their 3rd sortie on the night of 6-7th September, by following the finest tradition of fighting falcons of PAF, serving air force and the motherland beyond the call of the duty. The first shaheeds of bomber wing in the line of the duty after F-86 Sabre wing first Shaheeds Squadron Leader Sarfraz Rafique HJ along with Flt Lt. Yunas Hussain SJ in Halwara aerial combat!

Peshawar air base A Bomber Wing Nucleolus:-

The Wing Commander Nazir Latif was also leading his bomber force of sixteen B-57s along with Squadron Leader M.Akhtar and Squadron Leader Najeeb A. Khan from air force base Peshawar in northern sector. Which remained a bomber wing operational nucleolus through out the war. Thereby launching bombing missions after mission against IAF bases Adampur, Halwara, Pathankot, Sirsa, Srinagar and finally hard hitting night bombing mission Ambala would be undertaken by them. 

Najeeb hits hard IAF air base Adampur

Squadron Leader Najeeb Khan led a formation of four B-57s taking off from air force base Peshawar in northern sector by launching first bombing mission against IAF Adampur. The enemy welcomed B-57 bomber force with illuminating runways s lights. Leader Najeeb and his formation responded delivering bombs over the targets with pinpoint accuracy shocking the enemy with surprise, leaving behind a trail of smoke and fire engulfed Adampur air base.

As soon the Squadron Leader Najeeb s B-57s were returning to land at Peshawar, another B-57s formation led by Squadron Leader M.Akhtar was setting its course for IAF Pathankot. The formation flew at tree top level to evade enemy radar detection and pulled up 8000ft through the massive ack ack barrage. The airfield beacons were blinking to highlight its location. 

The leader dropped bombs over runways and hangars and formation followed the action, extensively damaging runways and hangars. An enemy radio message was intercepted by the Pakistan Army signal intelligence IAF air base Pathankot is burning, Please advance relief.

Soon after arrival from IAF Adampur, another night bombing mission was assigned to Squadron Leader Najeeb Khan and his formation of four B-57s to hit hard Beas river bridge to disrupt an important military supply link for Indian Army and the formation pressed for the mission then and there. Although, bridge proved to be a futile night bombing target. No damage was reported.

A large scale night bombing mission program launched by the B-57 bomber wing originating from Peshawar and Mauripur airbases since 6th September, was getting its momentum through its head start from Jamnagar and Adampur air bases, moving up to Pathankot, Halwara and Jodhpur, carrying the war deep into the enemy's major airfields. 

The frequency of the night bombing sorties was in progress with the passage of the time. Sooner, its scope and operational methodology will widen according to the rapidly changing scenario of the air war in favour of Pakistan Air Force.

Chawinda Tank Battle & B-57s Night Mission Samba:-

The Indian Army launched another Major ground offensive from Samba in Sialkot sector after Lahore front through Charwa-Gadgor-Chawinda Axis on 8th September 1965. Major attack was spearhead by leading Indian Army s pride 1st Armoured division along with two Motorized Infantry and one Mountain divisions backing up by massive Corps Artillery s shelling with ultimate mission to reach G.T. Road at Gujranwala cutting main railway lines and roads encircling Lahore front from northern access by passing Pakistan s 6th Armoured division, 24th Infantry brigade along with 4th Corps Artillery units deployed around Chawinda-Daska axis. Another diversionary ground attack was launched against Sialkot by 26th Indian Infantry division to engage 15th Infantry division defending Sialkot-Jammu main axis. Indian army units had also brought road & bridge construction equipments and specialized vehicles & boats to negotiate water obstacles, rivers and canals in the area. The enemy war plan, if that could have been operationally implemented in accordance to its strategic milestone, would have defeat the Pakistan Army in the ground battle.

The 25th Cavalry a premiere regiment of Patton (M-47) tanks under the command of Col. Nisar A.Khan SJ took the lead to bear the major brunt of enemy First Armoured Division along with 24th infantry brigade under the command of Brig. Abdul Ali Malik HJ and 4th corps artillery under the command of Brig. Amjad Ali Chaudhri HJ engaged advancing columns of vanguard armor units of the enemy with in 7-8 miles from border. 

A major tank and artillery duel began and lasted day and night. A large number of enemy Centurion and Sherman tanks were destroyed and eight Centurion tanks captured in running condition by the 25th Cavalry during the first round of Chawinda battle. From one of the Indian tanks, A copy of operational plan for 16th Cavalry recovered. Heavy, medium and field guns & howitzers regiments of 4th Corps artillery deployed around Chawinda, Pasrur and Sialkot were delivering accurate shelling on advancing enemy tanks and infantry units thus containing them for further move. Our artillery engaged enemy targets from the battle field of Chawinda up to border and beyond visual range hitting hard enemy units deployed around Sialkot Samba axis with dropping the shells of 200 lbs, 90 lbs, 80 lbs & 25 lbs in a very substantial and effective style.

The Indian Army 1st Corps Headquarters located at Samba 7 miles distance from Indo-Pak border, was controlling entire military operations for Chawinda battle. A large number of tanks, artillery and infantry units were assembled there to be launched for battle from Samba, a battle nucleolus point.

In the wake of the mounting pressure from Indian Army s large scale offensive operations against Sialkot and Chawinda sectors, Pakistan Army sought immediate air support missions from PAF high command against enemy concentrations around Samba. The bomber wing was tasked to carry out night bombing missions against Indian Army units deployed there on the night of 10th September 1965.

A B-57 s formation led by Squadron Leader Rasi A. Rafi & navigator Flt Lt. Akhtar took off to undertake the night close support bombing mission around Samba to harass the enemy army throughout the night. Although, it was bright moon lit night, B-57s dropped flares from 5000ft altitude, maintaining R/T liaison with army ground liaison officer to identify the target areas. 

The flares hit the mark reported by the GLO. Now, Squadron Leader Rasi A. Rafi & navigator Flt Lt. Akhtar responded with lightning speed by dropping bombs over the target and repeated the action up to 20 minutes, before B-57 exited the area. Another B-57 aircraft reached the scene and undertook the bombing mission over enemy concentrations. The B-57 bombing missions after mission continued the whole night of 10th/11th September, disturbing and harassing the Indian army units and thus preventing them from joining the battle of Chawinda. 

In the morning valiant 17th,18th & 19th Squadrons of F-86s from Sargodha ans Peshawar would come to settle their balance with depleted units of enemy by strafing and rocketing through out the day. Advancing Indian Centurion & Sherman tanks were proved to be hot favorite shooting ground of the hovering F-86s at tree top level from dawn to dusk. The F-86s formations after formation remained there to take its due share of enemy ground targets under its dynamic Squadron Leader Butch Ahmed SJ who later embraced Shahadat during another ground attack mission against an ammunition carrying train at Gurdaspur railway station and Squadron Leader Azim Doudpota SJ from No 32 fighter wing operating from Sargodha air base. 

Therefore, PAF s bomber wing B-57s along with its brother fighter bomber wings of F-86s played decisive role to contain the enemy army advance through Chawinda battle by effectively knocking out a large number of Tanks, Artillery guns and Infantry vehicles particularly 14th mountain division which was prepared to join the battle royal of Chawinda along with 1st Armoured division. The PAF s aircraft knocked out its fighting potential destroying vehicles, guns and fighting arms leaving in a very depleted condition not fit for any battle.

Target Alpha

IAF s high powered P-35 three dimension radar systems with Early warning & GCI facilities at Amritsar was a prime target for PAF, because of its strategic location on border near Lahore. Its call sign Fish oil The radar was posing direct threat to PAF air operations directing IAF air operations over West Pakistan. 

Since the outbreak of Indo-Pak war, F-86s fight bomber wing from Sargodha air base operating along with No 24 Elint Squadron s RB-57s as pathfinder escorted by No 9 Squadron F-104s as top cover launched sustained air strikes to neutralize this target. 

Squadron Leader Muhammad Iqbal OC of No 24 Elint Squadron along with his navigator Flt.Lt.Saifullah Lodhi embraced Shahadat during a practice mission for this vital target, his RB-57B was hit by friendly ack ack fire. 

During a successful air strike undertaken by the F-86s on radar station, its wing operation officer Squadron Leader Munir Ahmed embraced shahadat and radar was extensively damaged for effective air operations on 11th September. However after some interval, Fish oil again back on the air to streamline Indian Air Force operations over West Pakistan. Meanwhile, the mission to destroy this radar was detailed to bomber wing. The C-in-C Air Marshal Nur Khan himself briefed pilots and navigators for the bombing mission against IAF radar station at Amritsar code named Target Alpha. The B-57s bombers struck successfully to the radar station. A formation of four B-57s led by Wing Commander Nazir Latif , dropped 28,000 lbs. of bombs on Amritsar Radar station with pin point accuracy and precision completely damaged the target on 12th September, leaving Indian Air Force with out any Early warning & GCI radar coverage for air operations.

First B-57 shot down by the IAF over Adampur air base:-

The daredevil Flt Lt Altaf Sheikh & Flt Lt Bashir Chaudhy would undertake bombing missions after mission since the first night of 6th September against heavily defended IAF bases, making two or three bombing runs to achieve accurate target hits but against the laid down procedure of single attack and quick egress. During his 13th bombing mission against Adampur, B-57 s bomb release system malfunctioned and bombs did not release, after many aborted attempts, Altaf decided to jettison the bombs en route to its air base. But he then again tried his luck to bomb IAF base Adampur, while in the dive, enemy ack ack shells hit the B-57. However Flt Lt Altaf & Flt Lt Bashir Chaudhy bailed out safely from downing aircraft and became POWs. The war history is made of those patriot air boys who rose to serve the air force and the motherland beyond the call of the duty, with out caring their personal safety and life. This was the first B-57 casualty claimed by the IAF on 14th September 1965.

Mission Ambala

IAF air base Ambala, which was among major operational bases of Canberra bomber force heavily defended with heavy and medium ack ack batteries and SAM-II missiles located an aerial distance of about 400 miles from Peshawar air base. It remained on top priority of the bombing target list by the B-57 bomber wing. A night bombing mission undertaken by Wing Commander Nazir Latif on 8th September aborted, The formation could not locate the target returned safely to the air base with out dropping bombs. Another night bombing mission against IAF air base Ambala renewed by highly experienced crews B-57s led by Squadron Leader Najeeb A. Khan with navigator Flt.Lt. William D. Harney and Wing Commander Nazir Latif with navigator Squadron Leader Auranzeb. 

The B-57s formation delivered delay fuse bombs extensively damaging runways, hangars and airfield infrastructure on the night of 18th September. When B-57s were exiting from mission, Ambala airfield was ablaz through chain reaction of firework and blistering barrage of ack ack batteries. 

B-57 Bombing with Allah-o-Akbar

Finally another highly dangerous night bombing mission against IAF Ambala was planned by the bomber wing and undertaken by B-57s highly experienced crews team led by Squadron Leader Najeeb OC No 7th Squadron & navigator Flg Officer Kamal, Squadron Leader Rafi OC No 8th Squadron & navigator Flt Lt. Akhtar and Squadron Leader Feroz & navigator Squadron Leader Aurangzeb on the night of 21st September 1965. 

Assistant Chief of Air Staff (Operations) Air Commodore Rahim Khan was himself there to brief the mission Ambala to B-57s crew in detailed because of its prime significance. The low level dive-bombing angles, a safety insurance from radar controlled SAMs-II, but offered an acute risk to the bomber aircraft and pilots from blistering anti aircraft guns and heavy machine gun batteries deployed in and around Ambala air base. 

But pilots and navigators of B-57s pressed for the mission flying with 360 nautical miles speed at 500ft above ground level in the moon light keeping total radio silence up to the target. While complete surprise was achieved by the leading B-57 piloted by Squadron Leader Najeeb & navigator Flg Officer Kamal, encountered no enemy ack ack shells from Ambala. In the bright moon light, IAF air base lay clearly visible before the B-57s crew, who could see the cars with their headlights on streaming along the road past the air base. A bomber pilot s dream emerged true, the target was in sight offering perfect view and accurate delivery of bombs. 

The B-57s formation struck the Ambala with lightning action delivering bombs with delay fuses through low level skip technique in the face of massive ack ack barrage and returned with flying colors. Squadron Leader Najeeb & Flg Officer Kamal, were first to hit the target blowing fuel dumps which illuminated the burning target from miles to mile, Squadron Leader Rais Rafi & Flt Lt. Akhtar ventured to hit hard the runways by accurate low level bombing. Squadron Leader Rafi while delivering bombs on runways kept the piper right on the targets raised Allah-o-Akbar and also pressed machine guns to hit some buildings on the runway and subsequently Squadron Leader Feroz & Squadron Leader Aurangzeb delivered another bomb load on the targets with devastating impact,leaving behind enemy Air Force in shock and surprise. A veritable inferno of fire and smoke engulfed the airfield. Enemy ack ack guns were firing at full fury also hit its own buildings during the air strike. 

While on their way back, flying at full throttle en route to air base Squadron Leader Rais A. Rafi & Flt Lt. Akhtar were very apprehensive about their comrades Squadron Leader Feroz & Squadron Leader Aurangzeb. Both prayed humbly May God protect Feroz & Auranzeb Meanwhile Squadron Leader Feroz voiced through R/T DCO (duty carried out). A jubiliant mood prevailed among B-57 s formation flying over Bhatinda. An enemy transport vehicles convoy became the target of trigger happy Squadron Leader Rais A. Rafi using cannons of the bomber. The exploding vehicles created another sensation and remaining rounds of the cannons were expended on Bhatinda railway station.

An intricate planning and skillful execution in flying and navigation as well as daredevil approach with surprise and professionalism were the keys to successful night bombing missions of the bomber wing through out the war.

An American magazine published a story that the Indian Air Force had lost 25 aircraft as a result of the PAF night bombing sorties against Ambala. However a clear message was given to the Indian leadership and IAF s high command that PAF bomber wing was quite capable of delivering bombing missions at will any where against IAF and military targets around the country.

B-57s for close support mission Wagah Atari

Before the cease fire announcement with India on 22nd September 1965. Indian Army was concentrating its Armour, Artillery and Infantry units for a possible assault on the salient to consolidate its positions on the eastern bank of the BRB Canal. A task was assigned to Bomber Wing to prevent Indian Army reinforcements from reaching their targets. A formation of four B-57s, which dropped 28,000 lbs. of bombs on Indian Army artillery pieces and tanks deployment near Wagah-Atari axis. The bombs from the B-57s dropped 'in train' engulfed the enemy tanks, artillery guns and support vehicles camouflaged under the trees and in the bushes. Very few enemy officers and soldiers survived to escape Atari. This was the last bombing mission carried out by the bomber wing before the cease fire with India on 23rd September 1965.

Operational losses during the war of 1965:-

Three B-57s of the No 31st Bomber Wing were lost in action but out of these, only one due to enemy action. One RB-57B electronics intelligence aircraft of No 24th Elint was lost due to friendly ack ack fire.

Shaheeds Gallery:-

No 31st Bomber Wing:-

1. Squadron Leader Shabbir Alam Siddiqui (Pilot)

2. Squadron Leader Aslam Qureshi (Navigator)

3. Flt. Lt. Mehmood Butt (Pilot)

4. Flt.Lt.A.S.Z.Khalid (Navigator)

No 24th Elint Squadron:-

1. Squadron Leader Muhammad Iqbal (Pilot)

2. Flt.Lt. Saifullah Lodhi (Navigator)

Gallantry Awards:- 

The Government of Pakistan gallantry awards to the Bomber Wing & 24th Squadron for outstanding perforce in line of the duty.

No 31ST Bomber Wing:-

1. Squadron Leader Najeeb A.Khan OC No 7th Squadron (Pilot) Sitara-e-Jurat (SJ) 

2. Squadron Leader Rais A.Rafi OC No 8th Squadron (Pilot) Sitara-e-Jurat (SJ)

3. Wing Commander Nazir Latif (Pilot) Sitara-e-Jurat (SJ)

4. Flt.Lt.Sikander M.Khan (Pilot) Sitara-e-Jurat (SJ)

5. Flt.Lt.Altaf Sheikh (Pilot) Sitara-e-Jurat (SJ)

7. Flt.Lt. Shams Ahmed (Pilot) Sitara-e-Jurat (SJ)

8. Squadron Leader Shuaib A.Khan (Navigator) Sitara-e-Jurat (SJ

9. Flt.Lt. William D.Harney (Navigator) Sitara-e-Jurat (SJ)

10. Flt.Lt.S.M.Akhtar (Navigator) Sitara-e-Jurat (SJ)

11. Flt.Lt. Iftikhar A. Ghori (Navigator) Sitara-e-Jurat (SJ)

12. Wing Commander Ayaz A, Khan (Pilot) Sitara-e-Basalat (SB)

13. Squadron Leader Aurangzeb Malik (Engg) Sitara-e-Basalat (SB)

No 24th Elint Squadron:-

1. Squadron Leader Muhammad Iqbal OC (Pilot) Sitara-e-Jurat (SJ)

2. Flt.Lt. Saifullah Lodhi (Navigator) Sitara-e-Jurat (SJ) 

3. Squadron Leader Mir Abdul Rashid OC (Pilot) Sitara-e-Jurat (SJ)

Strategic Victory:-

The strategic material out come of these night bombing missions carried out by the bomber wing made nerve shattering shock impact on IAF High Command moral, which was forced to retreat from major air force bases of Pathankot, Halwara, Jodhpur, Jamnagar, Sirsa, Srinagar and Adampur to rear air bases i.e Agra, Ambala and Hindon. The IAF High Command compelled to shift its priority offensive air operations to defensive air operations nevertheless its larger size and very big air defense infrastructure. The IAF could not launch massive night bomber operations by its larger Canberra bombers force against few PAF bases during the war and also failed to provide effective interdiction/air support missions to Indian Army at battlefields as acknowledged by the Indian Army Generals serving in Western Army Command during Indo-Pak war of 1965. The perpetual night bombing campaign exerted devastating effect on the morale of the IAF personnel. The material effect of fatigue caused to them was most pronounced on their air and ground crew while they were forced to keep shuttling in and out of air raid shelters and trenches.

Enemy s Acknowledgement:-

As Indian Army Lt. General Harbaksh Singh has mentioned in his book War despatches Indo-Pak Conflict 1965. There was no air support available from IAF during field battles with enemy on western front and IAF was forced to exit from its main and forward air bases for reasons best known to IAF s  High Command. Our officers and jawans were witnessing PAF s fighter bombers commanding the skies from dawn to dusk for shelling and bombing around thirty minutes or more over the battle fields under the Indian Army Western Command areas.

The Indian Navy s Vice Admiral Mihir Roy has also acknowledged in his book War in the Indian Ocean Perpetual bombing raids reported against IAF base Jamnagar by the PAF sB-57s bombers since the evening of 6th September 1965.

An Overview of Balance Sheet:-

The numerically superior IAF Canberra Bomber Force was completely knocked out in all instruments of its war machine without registering any major breakthrough for the war of 1965.

The PAF bomber s Pilot/Navigator Vs IAF bomber s Pilot/Navigator. 

Martin B-57 Bomber Force of 22 aircraft Vs English Electric Canberra B-58 Bomber Force of more than 60 aircraft. 

No of Bombing Mission/Sorties -195 Vs No of Bombing Mission/Sorties 92. 

PAF Bomber Command Vs IAF Bomber Command.

The PAF Bomber Wing of B-57s emerged victorious with flying colours during day and night bombing missions assigned by the Air Force and the Country by keeping the numerically superior enemy Air Force at bay. The Wing performed bigger assignments, not only holding its own, made concerted night and day air strikes deep into the enemy territory as well performing close support missions for Pakistan Army engaged in the field battles.

Qualitative Edge & Factors:-

The qualitative edge and factors enabled B-57 bomber wing to produced remarkable performance during the war:

1. The meticulous war planning contemplated over several years, operational readiness and periodic operational exercises at Squadron, Wing, Base and Air Force levels masterminded by the C-in-C PAF Air Marshal Asghar Khan.

2. The selection of best pilots to command combat Squadrons & Wing, uncompromising standard and merit criteria. 
3. Years of perpetual and rigorous night & day operational training-in flying, navigation and bombing precision, proved to be a very vital link in the chain of success. During the war, as it turned out the bombing results were even better than in peacetime practice exercises. This was perhaps because the pilots & navigators were so proficient and concentrated all their flying efforts on achieving the maximum pinpoint accuracy and precision.

4. Martin B-57 one of the most versatile and reliable bomber of the time and being the only type of that category in the Air Force s inventory, the bomber pilots and navigators were able to fly it extensively day and nights and learned to exploit its capabilities up to the limits.

5. The Engineers & engineering staff were able to achieve high aircraft serviceability and reliability, to sustain healthy rates of highest flying hours in the Squadrons and Wing level.

6. The Maintenance chiefs and maintenance staff s commendable performance during the war operations was a prime factor as described in detailed earlier.

7. The B-57 s pilots and navigators young, dedicated, bold and hard taskmasters, a fine blend of national spirit with unparallel professionalism, their heroic performance during the battle week was above the board. Enemy s massive ack ack batteries, fighter interceptors and SAMs-II could not deter them to carry out their bombing missions after mission. They wrought such havoc in the numerically superior IAF s ranks that they had no stomach left for air battle.

8. As Air Marshal Nur Khan being the bomber pilot was fully aware about operational potential of the bomber wing. Therefore, the B-57 s bomber wing being the strategic arm of the PAF was remained under specific and direct supervision of Commander in Chief PAF and Assistant Chief of Air Staff (Operations) during Indo-Pak war of 1965.A number of bombing missions were briefed to aircrews by the Air Marshal Nur Khan and Air Commodore Rahim Khan. Air Chief and his air staff presence during operational brief proved to be, a true source of inspiration and motivation during the week of the war for pilots and navigators leaving for the highly dangerous bombing missions.

In a modern jet age war, Bomber Wing s strategic breakthrough during the Indo-Pak War 1965, Which PAF capitalized and enjoyed was the result of bold and skillful tactical actions of its highly trained, motivated and disciplined air and ground crew possessing highest degree of professionalism and patriotism. The crew executed every dangerous mission believing in the uprightness of the National Cause and felt no Sacrifice too great for it.

Bibliography

1.PAF BOMBER OPERATIONS 1965 & 1971 WARS by Rais A. Rafi, Air Commodore SJ, a B-57 bomber pilot & decorated star of Indo-Pak Wars

2.The Story of the Pakistan Air Force 1988.

3. Battle for Pakistan The Air War of 1965. by John Fricker 

4.B-57 THE INTREPID BOMBER OF PAF.Defence Journal, Karachi by Hali Sultan M. Group Captain 

5.Martin B-57 Canberra--The Complete Record, Robert C. Mikesh, Schiffer Military/Aviation History, 1995. 

6.Canberra: The Operational Record, Robert Jackson, Smithsonian Institution Press, 1989. 

7.The English Electric Canberra Mk.1 and IV, K. Munson, Aircraft In Profile, Doubleday, 1969 

8.United States Military Aircraft Since 1909, Gordon Swanborough and Peter M. Bowers, Smithsonian Institution Press, 1989. 

9.Library of Congress Country Study--Pakistan 
10.War despatches Indo-Pak Conflict 1965 by: Lt. General Harbaksh Singh Indian Army

11. War in the Indian Ocean by: Vice Admiral Mihir Roy Indian Navy

Arshad Hussain.

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## Zarvan

An Air force page on facebook is saying that J-10 B would enter Pakistan next years @Aeronaut @Oscar @nuclearpak @Icarus @RazPaK @Imran Khan


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## That Guy

Zarvan said:


> An Air force page on facebook is saying that J-10 B would enter Pakistan next years @Aeronaut @Oscar @nuclearpak @Icarus @RazPaK @Imran Khan



HOLY....That HAS to be photoshopped, it just looks too pretty!

Also, if true, then GOOD NEWS!


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## Zarvan

That Guy said:


> HOLY....That HAS to be photoshopped, it just looks too pretty!
> 
> Also, if true, then GOOD NEWS!


Yes that is photoshop but the main thing is news some other resources suggested the same they are saying wyne went for this 
purpose to China and also to get some weapons for Navy and also the news came that despite bad economy still Pakistan would go ahead with Air Force future plans @Aeronaut @fatman17


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## That Guy

Zarvan said:


> Yes that is photoshop but the main thing is news some other resources suggested the same they are saying wyne went for this
> purpose to China and also to get some weapons for Navy and also the news came that despite bad economy still Pakistan would go ahead with Air Force future plans @Aeronaut @fatman17



Right, still, it confirms my first thought that the 2014-15 deadline will be met. There were a lot of skeptics, but this pretty much confirms what I've said in the past.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Chak Bamu

Sit tight and wait for confirmation. This is just low level chatter at this point.

My feeling is that Pakistan ought to go for a stealth solution by 2022. Until that time, we ought to make do with JF-17 upgrades. J-10B is a good aircraft, but stealth is a must. Going for J-10B would leave fewer funds for a stealth fighter/bomber, it would also ensure that in 2020s Pakistan would have four combat aircraft types - F-16, JF-17, Stealth fighter/bomber, and J-10B (five if you add J-7PG if it goes on til then).

If J-10B brings a capability that is well beyond JF-17, I would want it for PAF. But we have very limited resources and we need a hard hitting (twin-engine?) fighter/bomber with decent range, payload, and stealth. If getting J-10B gets in the way, then I would rather not have PAF go for it.


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## fatman17

"With the delivery of the new F-7PGs to PAF, a trainer version dubbed FT-7PG featuring improved avionics was upgraded from the existing FT-7P fleet to save time and cut cost. Its prototype first flew in March 2002. 9 FT-7PGs were delivered to PAF."

CMA



Chak Bamu said:


> Sit tight and wait for confirmation. This is just low level chatter at this point.
> 
> My feeling is that Pakistan ought to go for a stealth solution by 2022. Until that time, we ought to make do with JF-17 upgrades. J-10B is a good aircraft, but stealth is a must. Going for J-10B would leave fewer funds for a stealth fighter/bomber, it would also ensure that in 2020s Pakistan would have four combat aircraft types - F-16, JF-17, Stealth fighter/bomber, and J-10B (five if you add J-7PG if it goes on til then).
> 
> If J-10B brings a capability that is well beyond JF-17, I would want it for PAF. But we have very limited resources and we need a hard hitting (twin-engine?) fighter/bomber with decent range, payload, and stealth. If getting J-10B gets in the way, then I would rather not have PAF go for it.



pakistanis have given a lot of input into the development of a J-10B for the PAF but in general also. i doubt if we will see this type anytime soon. PAF as per open and subscribed internet news is interested in chinese stealth technology. this much we know.


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## fatman17

It was understood that at least one MiG-29 was loaned to Pakistan in the 1990s for evaluation.
AIR FORCE


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## Zarvan

PAF chief is now having a meeting with nawaz sharef right now he is having lot off meetings with nawaz since he came to power


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## fatman17

Zarvan said:


> PAF chief is now having a meeting with nawaz sharef right now he is having lot off meetings with nawaz since he came to power



maybe NS is going to appoint him as the next army chief.....!!!!!

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## Panther 57

fatman17 said:


> "With the delivery of the new F-7PGs to PAF, a trainer version dubbed FT-7PG featuring improved avionics was upgraded from the existing FT-7P fleet to save time and cut cost. Its prototype first flew in March 2002. 9 FT-7PGs were delivered to PAF."
> 
> CMA
> 
> 
> 
> pakistanis have given a lot of input into the development of a J-10B for the PAF but in general also. i doubt if we will see this type anytime soon. PAF as per open and subscribed internet news is interested in chinese stealth technology. this much we know.



Just for timeline estimates. In 1994-95 JF-17 was on drawing board.

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## Zarvan

fatman17 said:


> maybe NS is going to appoint him as the next army chief.....!!!!!


But I think he is desperately want to get more fighter jets really soon


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## Panther 57

Zarvan said:


> But I think he is desperately want to get more fighter jets really soon



It is necessary for our salvation. We should not rely on fighting falcon.


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## fatman17

*Missing in Action: Fate of lost PAF aviators uncovered*

14 Friday SEP 2012 

POSTED BY ZAAIN BOKHARI IN MILITARY, PAKISTAN 




When Squadron Leaders Shabbir Alam Siddiqui (pilot) and Aslam Qureshi (navigator) did not return from their third bombing mission on the night of September 6, 1965, details regarding their fateful mission remained obscure for decades.

Consequently, they were declared missing in action by the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) and never decorated for their valiant service. Their wives, Shahnaz Alam and Parveen Qureshi, both new mothers in their early twenties at the time, lived with an anguishing lack of disclosure.

It took Shahnaz more than 40 years of undying love and relentless determination to uncover facts about her loving husband&#8217;s fate. She was finally able to draw attention of the Indian Air Force (IAF) in 2006 through help from Air Commodore (retired) Najeeb Khan, himself a decorated war veteran and a colleague of the lost officers.

In a historic gesture, then IAF Chief Shashi Tyagi responded compassionately and ordered exclusive research into the fate of this dauntless crew. He officially invited Shahnaz to India and informed her that the PAF B-57 bomber from Mauripur (Masroor) Base in Karachi had reached over its target Jamnagar Airfield shortly before dawn on September 7, 1965. After dropping two bombs it was in circuit to drop the remaining load when it was hit by anti-aircraft (AA) fire and crashed. The pilot and navigator were killed on impact and buried in nearby fields.

IAF revelations therefore cleared the various misconceptions regarding this fateful mission, which had accumulated over the decades. PVS Jagan Mohan, renowned Indian military historian and author of the highly-acclaimed book The India-Pakistan Air War of 1965, points out that, &#8220;The impression about this B-57 crashing into the sea en route was incorrect as the IAF had claimed shooting down the bomber in 1965. It seems due to the atmosphere of hostilities and distrust, the PAF may not have believed the IAF claim.&#8221;

Further research into Indian accounts of the war revealed that this crew had bombed the enemy airfield at a very critical time, when aircraft of the Indian Navy Air Squadron were preparing for a massive raid against PAF bases at dawn on September 7. Their daring mission annihilated the planned Indian assault.

Rear Admiral Satyindra Singh of the Indian Navy states in his book Blue Water &#8211; Indian Navy 1961-1965 that, &#8220;Had the eight aircraft at Jamnagar bombed the &#8216;seeing-eye&#8217; of the PAF air defence establishment at Badin, the war would have been over much quicker&#8230;&#8221;

Five years after these crucial revelations from India, their families are hopeful that the President and PAF chief will at last honour these unsung national heroes.

&#8220;My family and I have never sought any financial reward that accompanies a decoration. All I have longed for nearly 50 years is the gallantry award acknowledging my husband&#8217;s valour and sacrifice alongside celebrated war heroes of 1965,&#8221; says Shahnaz.

There are numerous examples of delayed gallantry awards the world over. Squadron Leader AB Devayya of IAF, who was lost in aerial combat over Sargodha in 1965, was decorated with a posthumous Maha Vir Chakra during the 1980s when details of his last mission were revealed over two decades later. In May this year, US President Barack Obama awarded the Medal of Honour to families of two soldiers killed in 1951 during the Korean War.

Another example is of Sipahi Maqbool Hussain of Pakistan army who was taken as a prisoner of war by the Indian army in 1965 and tortured for decades. When released few years ago, he managed to reach his regiment where his amazing saga was revealed and he was awarded the Sitara-e-Jurat.

Parveen requests authorities to also try and bring the remains of these officers home, so they can be buried in their own soil. A cited example is that of Mati-ur-Rahman, the Bengali pilot who was killed while attempting to hijack Pilot Officer Rashid Minhas&#8217; aircraft in 1971. His remains were excavated from a graveyard at Masroor Base and handed over in 2006. Rahman is a recipient of Bir Sreshtho, Bangladesh&#8217;s highest military award.

Extracted from Express Tribune&#8217;s website: Unsung heroes: Fate of lost PAF aviators uncovered &#8211; The Express Tribune

More about the incident (taken from Defence Day - 6 September 2008: The Glory of Sqn Ldr Shabbir Alam Siddiqui Shaheed)

Friends and the family of Sqn Ldr Alam Siddiqui relate that he was an extremely energetic and patriotic individual. 6 feet tall and a mountaineer by hobby he was the kind who keep looking or challenges. He always used to pray to be able to deliver his best for service to Pakistan whenever need arises and often used to wish to be able to offer the ultimate sacrifice for the Pakistan which he had seen gaining independence during his student days. He had seen the sacrifices and hardships that had been faced in order to gain freedom and Pakistan. And he was sure he would never think twice if he was needed to play a crucial role for Pakistan&#8217;s security.

He had initially been commissioned into PAF in 1954 as a navigator, but being in love with flying he convinced the PAF Chief AM Asghar Khan to allow him to return to the PAF College Risalpur as a commissioned officer to get re-trained as a fighter pilot. He remains the first officer in PAF history to have achieved this distinction.

On 6 September 1965 he left home in the morning after being informed of the war. He and his companions waited impatiently for orders to pounce at the enemy. By noon after FM Ayub Khan&#8217;s blood warming and motivating speech they received orders to strike India&#8217;s Jamnagar Airfield at dusk, in order to neutralize the threat to Southern parts of Pakistan from India&#8217;s air base just 258 Miles from Karachi.

6 bombers flew at dusk and delivered a surprise attack successfully and returned. Sqn Ldr Alam Siddiqui was one of the bombers in the team. After return it was decided that the bombers would continue to bomb the airfield through out the night in a bombing &#8216;shuttle service&#8217; of sorts. Only this time each B-57 bomber would fly as a single attacker.

Sqn Ldr Alam Siddiqui went on his second mission at about 2200 Hrs with his navigator Sqn Ldr Aslam Qureshi. They returned by midnight safely with after carrying out their duty and completing the mission.

Sqn Ldr Aslam Qureshi
By this time both must have been extremely tired, and Sqn Ldr Alam Siddiqui must have been highly fatigues as every aviator or anyone for that matter knows that flying repeated missions is no easy task. A single mission is extremely exhausting and demanding. Regular military training missions alone are very tough. This was a real war mission in the face of great danger after intruding into Indian air space.

Sqn Ldr Shabbir Alam Siddiqui had just flown two repeated missions. And now he was ready and volunteering for a third mission right away after having an aircraft ready, refueled and armed for him to attack again.

This heroic Pakistan warrior of the skies was now about to fly on his 3rd mission within 9 hours. Which is not just a PAF record in war missions but even in regular training missions as well.

The B-57 Bomber with the two brave aviators, Alam Siddiqui the pilot in the front and Aslam Qureshi in the back as navigator flew off Pakistani soil at 0330 Hrs on the morning of 7 September once again. Volunteering for the dangerous mission. They felt that since they had been over the target multiple times they had better knowledge of the area than others who had not been there yet or those who had been there just once.

By all means this was a gesture of service beyond the call of duty, in the face of grave danger and with disregard for personal well being and safety, only out of love and devotion to the motherland and the service to which they belonged.

As they neared their target in the darkness the area was covered with low clouds as reported by pilots who had just returned from there while they were approaching.

Suddenly the aircraft lost control and crashed in a field around Jamnagar in Gujrat state.

A painting by Gp Capt Hussaini depicting a B-57 bomber crashing while attacking over an Indian air base

For many years it was believed that either out of fatigue, or due to being spatially disroiented due to lack of visibility and bad weather, the B-57 must have hit the ground while the pilot tried to descend very low to ensure bombing precision. And for years it was thought by PAF as well as the family of Sqn Ldr MS Alam Siddiqui that he must have ejected and would have been taken POW along with his companion Sqn Ldr Aslam Qureshi.

India however never claimed shooting down the bomber or having the crew as POW. Until 2006 that is!

In 2006 Mrs Alam Siddiqui and her long hope and love for her husband inspired an old friend of her husband who was also an ex PAF pilot Sqn Ldr later Air Cdre Najeeb Ahmed Khan to write to then Indian Air Force Chief ACM S P Tyagi, for some help and details about what really happened.

Surprisingly ACM Tyagi responded enthusiastically and welcomed the wife and friend of the lost warrior to India. There they showed them records, took them to the crash site and it was confirmed that the B-57 Bomber aircraft had indeed been shot down by Indian AAA fire and the bodies were buried near crash site and acknowledged the brave actions of the pilot and honoured his wife and friend.

A sad note remains that both heroes Sqn Ldr Alam Siddiqui as well as Sqn Ldr Aslam Qureshi remained undecorated and received no medals in recognition for their selfless devotion and ultimate sacrifice for the motherland. Their families and their children have prospered and have made a good name for themselves. Alam Siddiqui&#8217;s wife was 21 when he was martyred and his two sons were 13 months and 1 month old respectively. One is an airline pilot and the other a surgeon. Aslam Qurehi&#8217;s wife was 23 and their kids were a 2 year old daughter and a 1 month old son, a marketing executive and a lawyer respectively.

The service beyond the call of duty and ultimate sacrifice of their fathers in laying down their lives for their beloved Pakistan they embraced eternal glory and shall forever be remembered among the brightest of stars in the hall of fame of Pakistani war heroes and makes the entire nation and ever new generation proud of our valiant war heroes.

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## Jango



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## DANGER-ZONE

nuclearpak said:


>



This image belongs here http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/44991-capabilities-paf-dassault-mirage-iii-v-23.html

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## fatman17

*J-21*

The first prototype was under construction since late 2011. Its first flight took place on October 31, 2012, powered by two smoky RD-93 turbofans. As a private venture of AVIC, J-21 (dubbed AFC/Advanced Fighter Concept) is expected to be promoted at the international market as a low-cost alternative to American F-35. Therefore it could have some negative impact on the prospects of FC-1/JF-17 in 7-10 years. Its first foreign customer is likely to be Pakistani AF. As for the domestic market, it appears to be a good candidate to replace all the remaining J-7E/G series light fighters still in service with PLAAF and PLAN, as the production of J-10 series will be limited to around 300. It was rumored that J-21 could compete with the other stealth fighter design from 611 Institute for the next generation PLAN carrier-based stealth fighter but this has not been confirmed. J-21 was partially unveiled at 2012 Zhuhai Airshow as an "advanced fighter concept", featuring a one-piece canopy.

- Last Updated 9/30/13

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## Gentelman

fatman17 said:


> maybe NS is going to appoint him as the next army chief.....!!!!!



I guess you wanna say chief of genral Staff commetee not Army Chief&#8230;&#8230;


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## fatman17

*Update on Chinese Engines.*

Speaking in late September at Aviation Expo China, AVIC officials said they expect to continue "using Russian engines for another five to eight years due to the fact that aeroengine technology remains one of the biggest challenges for AVIC's engine division from a design and manufacturing standpoint."


*J-31*

This fighter, which has been previously referred to as the J-31 and Project 310, is produced at the Shenyang Aircraft Works (SAC) in northern China and was the centrepiece of the AVIC display in Beijing. AVIC representatives stated that the AFC is being developed to "become an export programme that is not initially intended for PLAAF use and which would compete with the F-35 in regional markets." As with the JF-17 - a co-production with Pakistan - SAC intends to "develop the aircraft in conjunction with a foreign partner nation." 

JDW

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## aghakhan

hello i want to ask about Pakistan air force F17 thunder?how many they have in numbers and in how much they can react quickly?


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## Panther 57

aghakhan said:


> hello i want to ask about Pakistan air force F17 thunder?how many they have in numbers and in how much they can react quickly?



You should not ask such questions, just assume by looking at the statistics available in public domain


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## fatman17

*AFD Interview: Pakistan Air Force Chief*

Posted on: October 15.

Air Chief Marshal Tahrir Rafiqui Butt, an F-16 pilot, has been the Pakistan Air Force Chief of Air Staff since March 2012. Via PAF

AFD&#8217;s Alan Warnes talks exclusively to Pakistan Air Force Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Tahrir Rafiqui Butt who has given few interviews since entering office in March 2012.

PAKISTAN HAS suffered its own unique share of troubles in recent years and the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) found itself involved in trying to solve many of them. &#8220;The regional geo-political situation, on-going operations in north-west Pakistan and internal security have been the biggest challenges for the PAF since I came to office in March 2012&#8221; the Chief told me.

Maintaining the required operational readiness must be quite a burden on the PAF&#8217;s ageing resources, but the PAF CAS appears to have risen to these challenges. The PAF has also been engaging with &#8216;miscreants&#8217; in the Federally Administered Territorial Areas (FATA) while supporting many agencies on the ground. &#8220;We have a heightened alert status and operations are regularly being flown in support of sister services [like the Pakistan Army]/Law Enforcement Agencies and security of PAF installations&#8221; he adds.

Having all this to contend with would challenge any air force and while Pakistan has not suffered such catastrophic floods as it did in 2010-11, torrential rains inundated large portions of lower Punjab and Sindh Provinces in 2012, which once again saw the PAF provide timely relief efforts as ACM Tahrir tells me, &#8220;The PAF has always been at the forefront in relief and rehabilitation work during natural disasters in Pakistan, like floods and earthquakes. In 2011 and 2012, PAF conducted rescue and relief operations to augment efforts by National Disaster Management Authority (NDMA). We evacuated over 23,700 people in distress and transported goods in excess of 9,550 tonnes to flood or rain affected areas across Pakistan.&#8221;

One of the ten Alouette IIIs donated by Switzerland in the aftermath of the 2010 floods is seen here receiving attention at Peshawar. During Pakistan&#8217;s regular humanitarian crisis&#8217;, the helicopters are operated on behalf of the National Disaster Management Authority, as the big badge on the side depicts. AFD-Alan Warnes

Alouette Ills and Mi-17s played a big part in these operations. Justifiably proud of the PAF helicopter fleet and the tireless work put in, that does not always get the recognition it deserves, the CAS reeled off an impressive set of statistics, &#8220;During 2010, PAF Alouette III helicopters flew 479 relief sorties transporting over 50 tonnes of cargo and PAF Mi-171s flew 374 relief sorties transporting 49 tonnes of loads. After massive floods that year, the Swiss Government subsequently donated ten ex Swiss Air Force Alouette IIIs to the PAF. In 2011, the former Swiss helicopters were put to good use, flying 115 relief sorties that transported 80 tonnes of relief goods while Ml-171 flew 50 sorties transporting 44 tonnes. In 2012 the PAF Alouette Ill fleet flew 120 missions and the Ml-171s did 40 flights transporting 92 tons of relief aid.

At the same time, the PAF&#8217;s ageing fighter inventory is causing another challenge, as the PAF CAS acknowledges, &#8220;Obsolescence and the need to replace some of our fighter fleet (particularly the F-7P and Mirage aircraft) is a concern. AFHQ remains engaged in finding viable solutions to major challenges, but this doesn&#8217;t deter the flying squadron implementing training programmes of newly inducted capabilities.&#8221;

All the fighter squadrons have deployed to Mushaf Air Base for Exercise Saffron Bandit over the past 18 months, allows personnel to refresh their current skills and learn new ones in the new range the PAF has developed nearby.

Resplendent in Pakistan&#8217;s national colour is JF-17 is 09-111 flown by the &#8216;Black Spiders&#8217; at Peshawar. The JF-17 will play a big part in the PAF&#8217;s future strategy. AFD-Alan Warnes

The JF-17 has been flying since March 2007 and it is no mean feat setting up aircraft production in a country where there is no real aerospace labour force or experience. The Chief continues, &#8220;JF-17 production is moving along smoothly. Planned milestones have been achieved to date and a total of 45 JF-17s have been inducted. These aircraft are operating in two squadrons and a flight test unit established at Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, Kamra. Plans to raise a third squadron this year is on but is being held back due to some administrative compulsions. Whenever these are addressed one of F-7 squadrons will be replaced&#8221;.

&#8220;The F-7Ps and Mirages are expected to be replaced by the JF-17 Thunder over time, with production of JF-17 Block 1 almost complete, they should start replacing F-7Ps this year.&#8221; CAS adds.

The first 50 Block I aircraft are the basic version, but production of the next batch of 50 Block IIs is expected soon. These aircraft will include new radar upgrades, air to air refuelling probes and more sophisticated weapons. The CAS would not be drawn on when production of these aircraft would commence, preferring just to say, &#8220;A lot of activity including activation of the JF-17 Block II has taken place during the past 18 months. Numerous operationalization and training activities have been accomplished. We have also established a centre of excellence (COE) for maintenance requirement of the fleet. The JF-17 participated in Zhuhai Air Show last year and the project received the Aviation Laureate Award for the best collaboration effort, between Pakistan and China. JF-17s will also participate in Dubai Air Show during November&#8221;.

*A pilot walks down the steps from his cockpit to waiting technicians. This PAF F-16A MLU, seen in June 2012, is one of 41 being upgraded by Turkish Aerospace Industries in Ankara. Half of the aircraft had been completed by early October 2013*. AFD-Alan Warnes

PAF modernisation is not all about JF-17s though. The PAF is currently taking delivery of 41 F-16 Mid Life Upgrade (MLU) jets under Peace Drive II, which also includes several aircraft going through Falcon Up. The first deliveries took place in February 2012 after spending around 18 months at Turkish Aerospace Industries. The modernization is expected to be completed next year. The F-16MLUs will provide Pakistan&#8217;s F-16 with a 24 hour day/night capability which is badly needed. Half of them have now been delivered back to the PAF. &#8220;The newly upgraded F-16 MLU jets are being operated from Shahbaz Air Base and arrangements are being made for their re-basing to other locations. Other than engine and Conformal Fuel Tanks, the F-16 MLU and F-16C/D Blk-52+ are similar. Both versions have excellent night attack capabilities.&#8221;

While the PAF&#8217;s focus remains on induction of more JF-17s, it continues to monitor and assess other possible needs. &#8220;We continue to evaluate various possibilities of other weapon systems including fighter aircraft. Depending upon the options and availability of funds, some inductions could possibly materialize in the not too distant future&#8221;.

Another important development recently is the induction of additional K-8Ps and Excess Defence Article (EDA) T-37s released by the USA in 2011, which has helped in the revision of basic flying training for student pilots. &#8220;The K-8Ps and more T-37 aircraft have been great for our training aspirations. It has allowed us to replace the vintage FT-5 jets with modern K-8Ps at No 1 Fighter Conversion Unit (FCU) for pilots destined to fly F-7Ps, Mirages, F-16s or JF-17s. Based on future requirements, the PAF over the past three years has increased its aircrew induction. Moreover, inclusion of a flying aptitude test and inclusion of simulator training for K-8, K-8P and T-37 students has substantially increased the value of training, resulting in a higher number of flying graduates, with attrition now being negligible.


Over the past decade the PAF has started to train with more foreign countries, initially in the Exercise Anatolian Eagle with the Turkish Air Force in 2004. Since then their desire to learn has taken them to Red Flag in the USA, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Turkey and China. &#8220;Over the past 16 months we have attended Exercise Anatolian Eagle 2012 in June at Konya, Turkey and the Advanced Tactical Leadership Course (ATLC) at Abu Dhabi, UAE in December 2012. During March 2013, the PAF hosted Indus Viper 2013, an international exercise [at Mushaf] and participated in a tri-lateral exercise at Ta&#8217;if, Saudi Arabia in May 2013.

Then in September we flew our fighters to China for Exercise Shaheen II. The PAF may also join ATLC 2013 with participation at Dubai Air Show in November 2013 too.&#8221;


PAF and PLAAF personnel pose together during Exercise Shaheen II, held at Hotain in September 2013. Via PAF

The Chief added &#8220;As I have already stated on several occasions, the PAF is ready to defend the aerial frontiers of Pakistan under all conditions. For that, we keep our personnel and equipment in a high state of readiness at our Main Operating Bases with proven capability to deploy at short notices. In the past, we have demonstrated our resolve and were ready at short notice to counter any threat.&#8221;

He rounded up by saying &#8220;Air power is an offensive tool in the hands of any Commander. Historically, PAF has always believed in offensive application for our national defence and the strategy is deeply embedded in our plans for any contingency that we might confront&#8221;.

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## Tacticool

F-7ps are 1st to go out. And around 20 to 21 F-16s have been upgraded. jf-17s are 45. Really valuable interview.


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## Tacticool

double post


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## airomerix

The F-7P's were sought to be retired couple of years ago. Until a thunder crashed and the notification was disregarded.

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## fatman17

airomerix said:


> The F-7P's were sought to be retired couple of years ago. Until a thunder crashed and the notification was disregarded.



it will take time. just cannot retire 120 F-7Ps...


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## Side-Winder

One of the Upgraded F-16s

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## Armstrong

airomerix said:


> The F-7P's were sought to be retired couple of years ago. Until a thunder crashed and the notification was disregarded.





fatman17 said:


> it will take time. just cannot retire 120 F-7Ps...



I've heard numerous times that the F-7 Ps are a poor man's F-16 & a mighty good interceptor - Why are we then planning on retiring them if they're still good enough as per the aforementioned description/attributes ? Shouldn't we still persevere with them as an Interceptor along with the Jf-17 & the F-16 ?


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## Side-Winder

Armstrong said:


> I've heard numerous times that the F-7 Ps are a poor man's F-16 & a mighty good interceptor - Why are we then planning on retiring them if they're still good enough as per the aforementioned description/attributes ? Shouldn't we still persevere with them as an Interceptor along with the Jf-17 & the F-16 ?




Yes as long as the indian MIG-21s are in service we should not retire the F-7s but anyhow new aircrafts are to be accommodated,that would require increase in defence budget for maintenance,more operators,crew etc
so that might be the factor...

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## Gentelman

Armstrong said:


> I've heard numerous times that the F-7 Ps are a poor man's F-16 & a mighty good interceptor - Why are we then planning on retiring them if they're still good enough as per the aforementioned description/attributes ? Shouldn't we still persevere with them as an Interceptor along with the Jf-17 & the F-16 ?



Chk out no. of hard points and max service ceiling and payload of F-7Ps.
Without BVR they are nuts and their radar is just good enough to take care of Afghans now!! 
and they completed their valuable life period.

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## khanasifm

Gentelman said:


> Chk out no. of hard points and max service ceiling and payload of F-7Ps.
> Without BVR they are nuts and their radar is just good enough to take car Afghans now!!
> and they completed their valuable life period.



fact 1 f-6 engine life 100 hours the. Requiring rebuild, total life 300 or 3 rebuilds or so
fact 2 a-5 was pretty much same even though it was designed 10-20 years later
fact 3 f7p was improved version of original f7s with total life of 2400 hours and rebuke required every 800 hours, engine time was 300-400 hours

mirage 2400 with overhauls required every 1800 hours approximately

assuming 200 hours per year per aircraft you can do the math. Pac along with OEM did further studies and came up with additional overalls to keep fleet air worthy forexaple a5s

jf 17 4000 hours with1200 between rebuilds and 2400 hours engine with 600-800 hours between rebuild

f16 ordinal 4000 hours no rebuild just 300 hours inspections, mlu/ falcon_up to take it 8000 hours engine 4000 hours new blk 52 modular design no overhaul just replace / rebuild major sections

usaf will upgrade their f16 for 10000 _ 12000 hours now with major overhaul till jsf picks up







s


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## airomerix

fatman17 said:


> it will take time. just cannot retire 120 F-7Ps...



Obviously its a slow procedure. The F-7s of tail choppers were the very first one to be retired. But then the crash delayed the process.


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## airomerix

Armstrong said:


> I've heard numerous times that the F-7 Ps are a poor man's F-16 & a mighty good interceptor - Why are we then planning on retiring them if they're still good enough as per the aforementioned description/attributes ? Shouldn't we still persevere with them as an Interceptor along with the Jf-17 & the F-16 ?



A little correction. 

The F-7*PG's* are sought to be poor man's F-16. And it is because the maneuverability of PG's is a lot better. Plus the two MFD's in the cockpit and Italian FIAR Grifo-MG radar is a treat for the young gun's who used to come from A-5 and F-7P squadrons.

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## Armstrong

airomerix said:


> A little correction.
> 
> The F-7*PG's* are sought to be poor man's F-16. And it is because the maneuverability of PG's is a lot better. Plus the two MFD's in the cockpit and Italian FIAR Grifo-MG radar is a treat for the young gun's who used to come from A-5 and F-7P squadrons.



Aaahhh !  

So whats the difference between an F-7P & an F-7PG ?  

Is it mostly technical (as in avionics etc.) or is it structural as well ? What I'm trying to get at is that could those F-7Ps which are in good shape be upgraded to the PG Level to serve as a Low in sort of a High-Medium-Low mix comprising of F-16s, Jf-17s & F-7PGs respectively ?

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## airomerix

Armstrong said:


> Aaahhh !
> 
> So whats the difference between an F-7P & an F-7PG ?
> 
> Is it mostly technical (as in avionics etc.) or is it structural as well ? What I'm trying to get at is that could those F-7Ps which are in good shape be upgraded to the PG Level to serve as a Low in sort of a High-Medium-Low mix comprising of F-16s, Jf-17s & F-7PGs respectively ?



The F-7PG is an entirely different variant as compared to the 'P/M/S/A' versions. 

The structural differences include new wings which are strengthened and reinforced to carry more payload. The addition of raked wing tips give the aircraft capability to sustain sharper turns making it more versatile. Plus a 3 piece canopy (F-7P) was replaced by a single piece one which is much simpler and safer to operate.

Other differences include the replacing of Italian FIAR Grifo-Mk-II radar (F-7P) with the Italian FIAR Grifo-MG radar system which has increased detection range and can track multiple targets aswell. Further more, indigenous electronics from PAC Kamra and AWC Wah Cantt make the the F-7PG an entirely different aircraft as compared to its other variants in service with PAF. Those electronics include ACMI system and so on.

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## Donatello

airomerix said:


> The F-7PG is an entirely different variant as compared to the 'P/M/S/A' versions.
> 
> The structural differences include new wings which are strengthened and reinforced to carry more payload. The addition of raked wing tips give the aircraft capability to sustain sharper turns making it more versatile. Plus a 3 piece canopy (F-7P) was replaced by a single piece one which is much simpler and safer to operate.
> 
> Other differences include the replacing of Italian FIAR Grifo-Mk-II radar (F-7P) with the Italian FIAR Grifo-MG radar system which has increased detection range and can track multiple targets aswell. Further more, indigenous electronics from PAC Kamra and AWC Wah Cantt make the the F-7PG an entirely different aircraft as compared to its other variants in service with PAF. Those electronics include ACMI system and so on.



Any reliable range figures on the Grifo MG Radar?


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## SQ8

Donatello said:


> Any reliable range figures on the Grifo MG Radar?



http://www.selexgalileo.com/~/media/Files/S/Selex-Galileo/documents/press-backgrounders/04grifo-family-backgrounder.pdf

Maximum Range is not stated but it has slightly greater range than the basic 20nm look down of the Grifo-7P. 
So a rough estimate might be 30nm look up and 25nm Look down.

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## airomerix

Donatello said:


> Any reliable range figures on the Grifo MG Radar?



I am afraid the real figures are classified. Rough figures on the google might be available.

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## Chak Bamu

I think 39 nm Look up might be more correct. This was the range of Grifo 7, MG being a latter version is probably better.

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## Bilal.

IIRC it's 57km lookup.

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## Donatello

Oscar said:


> http://www.selexgalileo.com/~/media/Files/S/Selex-Galileo/documents/press-backgrounders/04grifo-family-backgrounder.pdf
> 
> Maximum Range is not stated but it has slightly greater range than the basic 20nm look down of the Grifo-7P.
> So a rough estimate might be 30nm look up and 25nm Look down.




Makes sense, since it would be able guide a BVR missile. Well technically a visual range is what....7-9 km at max.....so anything above that is Beyond Visual Range. But 40-50km BVR range gives the F-7PG a chance in the fight, say if it has to take on the (Usual) adversary's Migs and Jaguars.

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## Tacticool

Why not we equip our f-7pgs with a-darter like mirages.

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## airomerix

^A major undertaking and far from reality. We will have to pay through our nose for that.

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## Najam Khan

I see F-7PGs and ROSE-III Mirages remain as workhorse of PAF even after 2020. A decent strength of at least 2 units of each type or minimum 40 a/c should be maintained. Because there are certain performance attributes in which these aircraft can perform better (or say cheaper/cost-efficient) than a F-16. 

Pakistan has smaller strategic depth, its Air Force has 2 commands under which assets are distributed in a way maximum area is covered. A 3rd Gen aircraft such as F-7PG/ROSE Mirage is even lethal in Indo-Pak scenario; as F-7PG with some decent/make-shift BVR capability fits the profile for interceptor and ROSE Mirage is suitable for long-range Tactial Attack/Recce profiles. 

Having said that, JF-17 shall be the main tier for air defence role (along with F-16s); its BVR capability and Long-Range (and precision guided) Surface attack munitions are very important for survival of PAF in near future. One or two year delays in JF-17 program cannot derail the overall PAF modernization and re-equipment plan. This program has to reach its estimated milestones i.e 150 aircraft with weapons/logistics chain.

In the meantime procurement of more F-16s in 'good deals' along with MLU modernization of existing fleet should be done.

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## araz

airomerix said:


> The F-7PG is an entirely different variant as compared to the 'P/M/S/A' versions.
> 
> The structural differences include new wings which are strengthened and reinforced to carry more payload. The addition of raked wing tips give the aircraft capability to sustain sharper turns making it more versatile. Plus a 3 piece canopy (F-7P) was replaced by a single piece one which is much simpler and safer to operate.
> 
> Other differences include the replacing of Italian FIAR Grifo-Mk-II radar (F-7P) with the Italian FIAR Grifo-MG radar system which has increased detection range and can track multiple targets aswell. Further more, indigenous electronics from PAC Kamra and AWC Wah Cantt make the the F-7PG an entirely different aircraft as compared to its other variants in service with PAF. Those electronics include ACMI system and so on.



A quick question can A F7p be upgraded to PG standard and what would be the costs involved. My own assumption is that it was deemed financially not viable and therefore not done. 
Araz

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## airomerix

araz said:


> A quick question can A F7p be upgraded to PG standard and what would be the costs involved. My own assumption is that it was deemed financially not viable and therefore not done.
> Araz



Too expensive and impractical. Its similar to upgrading F-16 block 10 to block 60, which will require extensive cutting and replacing of parts like a bigger air inlet etc.

In the case of F-7s. The wings, canopy. engine, radar.avionics will require replacement. Too much for 'upgradation'.

Even the engines are different in both the variants. The 'P' version is equipped with Liyang WP-7 which has a maximum TOW of 3,900kg and maximum thrust of 8,598lb. Where as the 'PG' is powered by Liyang WP-13F which has a max TOW of 4,497kg with a max thrust of 9,914lb.

Hence too many major differences. Building a new jet would cost lesser fortune.

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## Abingdonboy

Guys any idea which Crash Fire Tender (CFT) the PAF fields?

 @Aeronaut @Oscar @anyone


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## aqdus

can any body tell me WHEN WILL WE GET JFT BLOCK 2 ????????????????????????

can any body tell me WHEN WILL WE GET JFT BLOCK 2 ????????????????????????


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## hassan1

bristol brigand b-1b

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## Tacticool

aqdus said:


> can any body tell me WHEN WILL WE GET JFT BLOCK 2 ????????????????????????



By the end of next year or by the start of 2015 may be


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## Patriots

Miss Sharista Baig, daughter of Col.Mahmud Baig is the first GD fighter pilot from Gilgit Baltistan. She belongs to Karimabad Hunza.

Wish her all the best! A proud moment for Women of Pakistan.





*This is Pakistan & I am proud to be Pakistani*

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## PiyaraPakistan

Patriots said:


> Miss Sharista Baig, daughter of Col.Mahmud Baig is the first GD fighter pilot from Gilgit Baltistan. She belongs to Karimabad Hunza.
> 
> Wish her all the best! A proud moment for Women of Pakistan.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *This is Pakistan & I am proud to be Pakistani*


Good see Nation's Daughters are playing their valuable role in strengthening the defence and nation building.

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## Gryphon

_Asian Defence Journal _: June 2013; Pages: 11-13

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## fatman17

*F-16 C Block 52, F-16A MLU And Mirages at Army field exercise Azm-e-Nau-4 *
6:21 PM MJ Qamar 



F-16 C Block 52 fighte jet, F-16A MLU fighte jet And Mirage fighte jets at Army field exercise Azm-e-Nau-4.



Posted in: F-16,Fighter Aircrafts,Pakistan Army,Pakistani Air Force
Email This BlogThis! Share to Twitter Share to Facebook 


Read more: http://pakmr.blogspot.com/2013/11/f-16-c-block-52-f-16a-mlu-and-mirages.html#ixzz2k2abaiJA

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## Side-Winder




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## fatman17

*PAC Kamra Rolls Out 50th Production JF-17 Thunder*
Posted on: December 18th, 2013



The 50th JF-17 Thunder, 13-150, at the official roll-out ceremony today at PAC Kamra. PAF
ROLL-OUT OF the 50th Block 1 JF-17 was celebrated today by the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) at Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) Kamra. Although the audience included Pakistan’s Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif and PAF’s top brass, headed by the PAF Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt, it was the aircraft, serial number 13-150, that took centre-stage. During the event, the PAF also took the chance to announce the start of production of the next batch of 50 Block 2 JF-17s.
There is a PAF requirement for 150-200 JF-17s before the end of the decade, which will replace all the Chengdu F-7Ps and Dassault Mirage III/Vs serving nine PAF squadrons. There has been a stepping stone approach to production, with more capabilities being built into each batch of 50 aircraft. Block 1 JF-17s were the basic version, armed with PL-5s and Mk 82/83/84 bombs. Among the improved Block 2 aircraft capabilities are the Chinese C-802 anti-shipping missile, SD-10 BVR missiles and an air-to-air refuelling system.
The JF-17 Thunder is a joint Pak-Sino project and one of Pakistan’s national projects. Four prototypes were built in China, as were eight Serial Batch Production (SBP) aircraft. The first aircraft flew in Pakistan from Kamra in March 2007 to celebrate Armed Forces Day, with production at the PAC’s Aircraft Manufacturing Factory commencing in June 2009, leading to the first aircraft leaving the production line in November 2009.
PAC Kamra, together with CATIC (China National Aero-Technology Import and Export Corporation), are now marketing the aircraft to potential export customers. According to one official, “Qatar, Sri Lanka, Turkey and the UAE have shown keen interest” although what level of interest that is, remains uncertain. Sri Lanka, with its ageing fleet of F-7BS, MiG-27s and Kfirs is likely to be the first to purchase an aircraft that can provide good value, with bags of potential. AFD-Alan Warnes



At the other end of the scale, seen here is the first series production JF-17, 07-101, which was built in China, taxiing out at PAC Kamra on March 23, 2007, to take part in the Armed Forces Day Parade over Islamabad. The aircraft is emblazoned in China and Pakistan’s national colours. AFD-Alan Warnes



Following manufacture of initial production aircraft in China, PAC Kamra began producing the JF-17 locally, the first example being 09-111 seen here, which left the AMF production line in November 2009. AFD-Alan Warnes

*Dubai Showbiz!*



Both Pakistan Air Force Thunder Display Pilots, the outgoing Wg Cdr Ronald and incoming Sqn Ldr Yaser practised their display routines in their two jets on November 16. Both pilots flew during Dubai.

*Pakistan’s presence*
With the need to speed up its export drive, the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) and China National Aero Technology – Import and Export Corporation (CATIC) brought the JF-17 Thunder to Dubai, having made its debut in 2011. They brought with them three aircraft from the PAF’s biggest JF-17 unit, 16 Squadron ‘Black Panthers’ based at Minhas. Exhibited in the static was 11-134 flanked by a number of current and future weapons, while two of the latest Block 1 jets, 12-138 and 12-142, were parked in the flying display area. A model on display at the CATIC Stand showed a two-seat JF-17 on show, which the PAF claims it does not need but its certain most customers would prefer to have as an option. CATIC are believed to behind the development of this aircraft, which the PAF CAS told me could be flying in 2015.



A model of the two seat FC-1/JF-17 Thunder could be seen at the CATIC Stand. The Chinese company has designed the trainer, which could fly as early as 2015, to assist with the JF-17 export drive.
Wg Cdr Ronald, the 16 Squadron CO, made his last appearance as the Thunder Display pilot at the event on Wednesday November 20, as Sqn Ldr Yaser Mudassar, who has been flying the JF-17 for three years, is now taking over the reigns. I was fortunate to be with both men when they carried out their practice performances in the two jets on the evening of September 16 in perfect conditions. 
Sqn Ldr Yaser made his international public debut at the show on September 19 after it was put back from the previous day due to a sandstorm and was expected to perform again on the last day but that was cancelled due to bad weather! It wasn’t too surprising that the PAF Chief, Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt, was present for the first two days, to have meetings and discussions with several companies including Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) led by Executive VP, Li Yuhai. AVIC is responsible for the supply of major systems and parts to Pakistan. The CATIC Chairman, Ma Zhiping, was also expected to be present but was called away at the last moment.
The PAF delegation included Air Marshal Sohail Gul Khan, the PAC Kamra Chairman and Air Vice Marshal (AVM) Javaid Ahmed, Chief Project Director for JF-17 programme. Both men were extremely busy talking to several international companies about collaborations. PAC Kamra also brought along two Super Mushshaks with newly upgraded cockpits, one participated in the flying display and the other in static.

For News from Dubai see ‘Dubai 2013′

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## razgriz19

fatman17 said:


> *PAC Kamra Rolls Out 50th Production JF-17 Thunder*
> Posted on: December 18th, 2013
> 
> 
> 
> The 50th JF-17 Thunder, 13-150, at the official roll-out ceremony today at PAC Kamra. PAF
> ROLL-OUT OF the 50th Block 1 JF-17 was celebrated today by the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) at Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) Kamra. Although the audience included Pakistan’s Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif and PAF’s top brass, headed by the PAF Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt, it was the aircraft, serial number 13-150, that took centre-stage. During the event, the PAF also took the chance to announce the start of production of the next batch of 50 Block 2 JF-17s.
> There is a PAF requirement for 150-200 JF-17s before the end of the decade, which will replace all the Chengdu F-7Ps and Dassault Mirage III/Vs serving nine PAF squadrons. There has been a stepping stone approach to production, with more capabilities being built into each batch of 50 aircraft. *Block 1 JF-17s were the basic version, armed with PL-5s and Mk 82/83/84 bombs*. Among the improved Block 2 aircraft capabilities are the Chinese C-802 anti-shipping missile, SD-10 BVR missiles and an air-to-air refuelling system.
> The JF-17 Thunder is a joint Pak-Sino project and one of Pakistan’s national projects. Four prototypes were built in China, as were eight Serial Batch Production (SBP) aircraft. The first aircraft flew in Pakistan from Kamra in March 2007 to celebrate Armed Forces Day, with production at the PAC’s Aircraft Manufacturing Factory commencing in June 2009, leading to the first aircraft leaving the production line in November 2009.
> PAC Kamra, together with CATIC (China National Aero-Technology Import and Export Corporation), are now marketing the aircraft to potential export customers. According to one official, “Qatar, Sri Lanka, Turkey and the UAE have shown keen interest” although what level of interest that is, remains uncertain. Sri Lanka, with its ageing fleet of F-7BS, MiG-27s and Kfirs is likely to be the first to purchase an aircraft that can provide good value, with bags of potential. AFD-Alan Warnes
> 
> 
> 
> At the other end of the scale, seen here is the first series production JF-17, 07-101, which was built in China, taxiing out at PAC Kamra on March 23, 2007, to take part in the Armed Forces Day Parade over Islamabad. The aircraft is emblazoned in China and Pakistan’s national colours. AFD-Alan Warnes
> 
> 
> 
> Following manufacture of initial production aircraft in China, PAC Kamra began producing the JF-17 locally, the first example being 09-111 seen here, which left the AMF production line in November 2009. AFD-Alan Warnes
> 
> *Dubai Showbiz!*
> 
> 
> 
> Both Pakistan Air Force Thunder Display Pilots, the outgoing Wg Cdr Ronald and incoming Sqn Ldr Yaser practised their display routines in their two jets on November 16. Both pilots flew during Dubai.
> 
> *Pakistan’s presence*
> With the need to speed up its export drive, the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) and China National Aero Technology – Import and Export Corporation (CATIC) brought the JF-17 Thunder to Dubai, having made its debut in 2011. They brought with them three aircraft from the PAF’s biggest JF-17 unit, 16 Squadron ‘Black Panthers’ based at Minhas. Exhibited in the static was 11-134 flanked by a number of current and future weapons, while two of the latest Block 1 jets, 12-138 and 12-142, were parked in the flying display area. A model on display at the CATIC Stand showed a two-seat JF-17 on show, which the PAF claims it does not need but its certain most customers would prefer to have as an option. CATIC are believed to behind the development of this aircraft, which the PAF CAS told me could be flying in 2015.
> 
> 
> 
> A model of the two seat FC-1/JF-17 Thunder could be seen at the CATIC Stand. The Chinese company has designed the trainer, which could fly as early as 2015, to assist with the JF-17 export drive.
> Wg Cdr Ronald, the 16 Squadron CO, made his last appearance as the Thunder Display pilot at the event on Wednesday November 20, as Sqn Ldr Yaser Mudassar, who has been flying the JF-17 for three years, is now taking over the reigns. I was fortunate to be with both men when they carried out their practice performances in the two jets on the evening of September 16 in perfect conditions.
> Sqn Ldr Yaser made his international public debut at the show on September 19 after it was put back from the previous day due to a sandstorm and was expected to perform again on the last day but that was cancelled due to bad weather! It wasn’t too surprising that the PAF Chief, Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt, was present for the first two days, to have meetings and discussions with several companies including Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) led by Executive VP, Li Yuhai. AVIC is responsible for the supply of major systems and parts to Pakistan. The CATIC Chairman, Ma Zhiping, was also expected to be present but was called away at the last moment.
> The PAF delegation included Air Marshal Sohail Gul Khan, the PAC Kamra Chairman and Air Vice Marshal (AVM) Javaid Ahmed, Chief Project Director for JF-17 programme. Both men were extremely busy talking to several international companies about collaborations. PAC Kamra also brought along two Super Mushshaks with newly upgraded cockpits, one participated in the flying display and the other in static.
> 
> For News from Dubai see ‘Dubai 2013′



So that confirms it, blk 1 is not BVR capable, nor it can carry precision weapons.
I do hope PAF would bring them on par with block 2 once the production is ended.


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## Zarvan

razgriz19 said:


> So that confirms it, blk 1 is not BVR capable, nor it can carry precision weapons.
> I do hope PAF would bring them on par with block 2 once the production is ended.


BLOCK 1 is BVR capable Sir and it uses BVR Sir the second and third squadron of JF-17 BLOCK 1 has BVR @Aeronaut

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## razgriz19

Zarvan said:


> BLOCK 1 is BVR capable Sir and it uses BVR Sir the second and third squadron of JF-17 BLOCK 1 has BVR @Aeronaut



I sure hope so, but no evidence suggest that so far
Although, i just saw a pic of 109 with SD-10, C-802, and IFR probe. But that could be because PAF brought that one to Block 2 specs for testing.


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## Informant

razgriz19 said:


> I sure hope so, but no evidence suggest that so far
> Although, i just saw a pic of 109 with SD-10, C-802, and IFR probe. But that could be because PAF brought that one to Block 2 specs for testing.



Block I has been BVR capable for some time now.


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## fatman17

*Pakistan Testing In-Flight Refuelling on JF-17 Thunder*
Posted on: December 19th, 2013



Pakistan’s Prime Minister Muhammad Nawaz Sharif, along with Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafque Butt, Chief of Staff of the Pakistan Air Force, at the roll out ceremony for the 50th JF-17 Thunder at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, Kamra, on December 18. Of particular interest in the background is JF-17 09-109, which is the first of the type to have been seen with a refuelling probe. PAF
ADDING TO the previous report on the roll out of the 50th Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Block 1 JF-17 Thunder at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), Kamra, yesterday, December 18, it also emerged during the ceremony that PAC Kamra has commenced testing of an in-flight refuelling (IFR) capability for the JF-17. As previously noted, IFR had been planned as one of the capabilities to be added as part of the Block 2 configuration.
During the ceremony yesterday, JF-17 09-109 from 26 Squadron ‘Black Spiders’ was noted with an IFR probe mounted just behind the cockpit on the starboard side. The probe was still painted in primer, suggesting it has probably only very recently been fitted to the airframe for trials. It is unclear as yet how far IFR testing has progressed, but it is thought likely that it is still in its very early stages. AFD-Dave Allport


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## M.ASIF AMIN

same as SOUTH AFRICAN Cheeta aircraft check it


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## M.ASIF AMIN

M.ASIF AMIN said:


> same as SOUTH AFRICAN Cheeta aircraft style check it SAAF Cheetah-C 342 (Spotty) | Flickr - Photo Sharing!


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## M.ASIF AMIN

The South African Air Force


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## fatman17

*Pakistan Procures Electronic Warfare Suite*
January 6, 2014
Exelis Inc., Clifton, N.J., has been awarded a $9,796,591 firm-fixed-price modification (P00004) on an existing contract (FA8540-11-C-0012) for manufacture and delivery of AN/ALQ-211 (V)-9 AIDEWS pod classified and unclassified spares. This award is the result of a source-directed acquisition and is 100 percent foreign military sales for Pakistan. Air Force Life Cycle Management Center, Robins Air Force Base, Ga., is the contracting activity

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## jawadqamar

In an AFM exclusive, at the Dubai Airshow Georg Mader spoke to Air Commodore Mahmood Khalid of the Pakistan Air Force about current and future plans for the Sino/Pakistani FC-1/JF-17 Thunder fighter.

Thunder is designed, developed and produced jointly by Pakistan and China.

Total requirement so far is for 150 to 250 (including exports)

At this time PAF is looking for 7 to 10 squadrons with 16 to 20 jets each.

KLJ-7V2 was jointly developed for Thunder and Its E-Scan version is under development for future blocks

CM-400AKG is mature and tested anti ship missile which is part of operational weapon set of JF-17. At mach 4 its kinetic impact alone is enuogh to destroy high value target like aircraft carrier

PAF Thunders took part in multi bogey engagement scenarios against PLAAF Su-27s and achieved favorable results

Thunder has flown over 10000 sorties

He speaks highly of J-10s but dont see PAF inducting them and called FC-20 induction a wishful thinking atleast in medium term.

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## airbus101

and JAwad the AC we lost was due to pilot error as well not by engine failure or any other thing according to Air Commodore Mahmood Khalid


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## fatman17

jawadqamar said:


> In an AFM exclusive, at the Dubai Airshow Georg Mader spoke to Air Commodore Mahmood Khalid of the Pakistan Air Force about current and future plans for the Sino/Pakistani FC-1/JF-17 Thunder fighter.
> 
> Thunder is designed, developed and produced jointly by Pakistan and China.
> 
> Total requirement so far is for 150 to 250 (including exports)
> 
> At this time PAF is looking for 7 to 10 squadrons with 16 to 20 jets each.
> 
> KLJ-7V2 was jointly developed for Thunder and Its E-Scan version is under development for future blocks
> 
> CM-400AKG is mature and tested anti ship missile which is part of operational weapon set of JF-17. At mach 4 its kinetic impact alone is enuogh to destroy high value target like aircraft carrier
> 
> PAF Thunders took part in multi bogey engagement scenarios against PLAAF Su-27s and achieved favorable results
> 
> Thunder has flown over 10000 sorties
> 
> He speaks highly of J-10s but dont see PAF inducting them and called FC-20 induction a wishful thinking atleast in medium term.


 
very informative interview....


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## fatman17

*Tooling up: Chinese weaponeers make their mark*

Last posted:2012-Nov-29

Images:8 images

*The evidence of Airshow China 2012, held in Zhuhai from 13-18 November, is that China's guided weapon sector is growing exponentially, with an unprecedented number of new, sometimes overlapping, programmes. Robert Hewson reports *

Although chiefly an aerospace event, Airshow China is increasingly home to a land and maritime systems component and this year's event brought together an impressive array of new weapons for all three domains.
A quick analysis shows that more than a dozen new weapons, never before seen in public, appeared at this year's event - along with many improvements to existing products. This underlines the ever-growing capabilities of China's weapon makers and the ever-increasing product range that China now offers for export.

There were several notable firsts among the air weapon exhibits, including China's first dedicated anti-radiation defence suppression weapons; its first very-high-speed (Mach 4+) weapons; long-range gliding dispenser weapons; specialist penetrator weapons for hardened target attacks; laser-guided rockets; and a fuel-air explosive (FAE) bomb. Continuing progress could be seen in the development of small weapons both for unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) and for internal carriage on China's future fighters. There were also new air-launched derivatives of missiles previously seen only in the surface-to-surface role - and even new surface-to-air versions of current air-to-air missiles.

The expanded range of air-defence products at Zhuhai - as with all other exhibits, all available for export - was very obvious. Several previously unknown mobile multi-weapon/multi-sensor ground-based air-defence systems were on show, alongside fully functional hardware for large systems such as the FD-2000 (export designation HQ-9) and LY-80 (export designation HQ-16).

The CASIC LY-80 (export designation for China's HQ-16 SAM) was prominently displayed at Airshow China alongside the longer-range FD-2000 (HQ-9) system. (Robert Hewson)

China is also offering an increasing number of precision-guided surface-to-surface weapons and Airshow China 2012 saw the first public appearances of the CM-501G and WS-33 truck-launched medium-range missiles, plus the latest WS-22 and WS-32 variants of the WS-2 multiple rocket launcher family.

There were strong appearances from Chinese weapon makers that had not previously attended the show. This included Norinco (the China North Industries Corporation), whose Harbin Jiancheng Group subsidiary showed eight air-launched weapons (seven of which had not been exhibited before). Also making its debut was the China South Industries Group Corporation (CSG), which brought a collection of bombs, including the CS/BBF1 FAE bomb, plus a dispenser weapon - all newly revealed in public. Better known as an automobile manufacturer (it has joint ventures with Ford, Suzuki, and Volvo among others), CSG displayed an entire hall full of combat vehicles, including armoured transports, air defence and radar systems, UAV launch-and-control vehicles, all-terrain vehicles and even a mine-resistant ambush-protected (MRAP) vehicle. This was the first time such a concentration of land systems had been brought to Airshow China (there were many other military vehicles from other manufacturers also), underlining the fact that the event has become a major showcase for China's defence industry as a whole.

Air weapon revelations
The appearance of a new air-launched anti-radiation missile (ARM) was a significant development at the show. The weapon, the LD-10, is being promoted for export by the Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) and is a product of the Luoyang Optoelectro Technology Development Centre (LOEC). The missile, which is closely based on LOEC's SD-10 (PL-12) air-to-air missile (AAM), is the first dedicated ARM to be observed in China. LOEC officials told IHS Jane's that the LD-10 is already in production for an (unnamed) export customer.

LOEC's LD-10 is the first dedicated anti-radiation missile to be seen emerging from China and is likely to be part of the export weapon set for the JF-17 Thunder lightweight fighter. (Robert Hewson)

AVIC data identifies the PAC/AVIC JF-17 Thunder (FC-1) as the "typical carrier aircraft" for the LD-10. This points directly to the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) as the customer for the missile. A senior PAF officer noted at the show that the Brazilian-built Mectron MAR-1 ARM is already integrated and operational with the JF-17 but suggested that it was preferable to have "options" when it came to future JF-17 exports. LOEC officials also acknowledged the status of the MAR-1 on the JF-17 but added that the LD-10 was a lighter, more modern weapon that offered greater effective range (quoted as 60 km). JF-17 programme officials added that the aircraft is close to winning new orders outside Pakistan.

LOEC representatives would not be drawn on where the seeker technology for the LD-10 was developed. The company already has some experience in anti-radiation systems and has incorporated a passive homing mode in the SD-10 AAM. However, the seeker for that missile was developed with Russian input and well-placed Russian sources suggest that the Omsk-based Avtomatika concern, which specialises in air-to-surface anti-radiation seekers, may have assisted with the LD-10.

An anti-radiation seeker is also being offered by the China Aerospace Science and Technology Corporation (CASC) for its new FT-6A extended-range glide bomb. The FT-6 is a 250 kg-class weapon that mates a Mk 82-type bomb body with a wing kit that delivers a glide range of 60 km. The latest FT-6A incorporates an anti-radiation seeker that allows the weapon to directly target air-defence systems, and mobile systems in particular. CASC has developed additional new terminal seeker options for the GPS/INS-guided FT bomb family and showed an improved FT-3A weapon fitted with a TV/imaging infrared seeker. According to CASC, the bomb's accuracy has been improved from a circular error probable (CEP) of about 20 m to less than 3 m with the new seeker.

CASC has significantly improved the accuracy of its Fei Teng series INS/GPS-guided bombs by adding new terminal seekers to the weapons. The newly modified FT-3A and FT-6A are seen here in front of other members of the FT family. (Robert Hewson)

Norinco and CSG both exhibited new stand-off dispenser weapons in the class of the US AGM-154 Joint Stand-Off Weapon. The two Chinese weapons are remarkably similar in appearance and performance and may well have been developed to meet a competitive export requirement. Norinco's Tianlei (Sky Thunder) has a gliding range of more than 80 km. It weighs 680 kg and can deliver a mix of submunition types. Company officials said that 12 anti-runway penetrating bomblets can be carried for an airfield attack, but up to 100 anti-personnel bomblets could be loaded for an area attack mission. The Tianlei is certain to have an inertial navigation system fitted, but a receiver antenna on the nose also points to an additional satellite guidance capability.

CSG has adopted complex (and opaque) designations for its new air-launched systems, referring to its new gliding dispenser as the CS/BBC5. This is a 500 kg-class stand-off weapon designed to deliver several payload options over long ranges and at low cost. CSG provided almost no information on this, or any of its products, but noted that the CS/BBC5 is intended for all-weather use over distances that allow the launch aircraft to avoid hostile air defences. Two satellite receiver antennas mounted on top of the airframe indicate that the CS/BBC5 uses a GPS-aided inertial navigation system. CSG said that a submunition payload or a unitary warhead can be carried.

The new Tiange guided-bomb series from Norinco includes the 250 kg TG250-ER weapon with wing kit (front), the 'baby' 100 kg TG100 (behind) and the 500 kg TG500 (rear). The weapon at the back of this display is the Tiangang 500 kg extended-range glide bomb. (Robert Hewson)

Alongside the Tianlei, Norinco/Harbin Jiancheng exhibited new precision-guided munitions (PGMs) ranging from 100 kg to 1,000 kg (the TG100, TG250, TG250-ER, TG500 and TG1000). The Tiange PGM family (named after an ancient Chinese weapon resembling a pike; Tiange roughly translates as 'Sky Spear') breaks down along three distinct lines. Within these divisions the weapons exhibit cues from various US and Russian guided-bomb designs, but all in distinctly Chinese final form. The Tiange bombs are mostly dual-mode weapons with GPS/INS guidance and semi-active laser homing in the terminal phase. Only the 500 kg TG500 stands apart as a single-mode (laser-guided) bomb. As the largest weapon, the 1,050 kg TG1000 is perhaps the most important as it is a specialist penetrator. It closely resembles the US GBU-28 Paveway III design (although it is less than half the weight) and Norinco says it is capable of penetrating more than 2.4 m of concrete reinforced to a strength of 35 MPa. The TG1000 is claimed to be accurate to within 3 m over a maximum range of about 20 km. However, company officials noted that it had not yet undergone airborne drop tests.

The largest member of the Tiange guided-bomb series is the TG1000: a dual-mode guided specialist penetrator weapon. (Robert Hewson)

At the other end of the scale is the 130 kg TG100, which appears to have the same Paveway III genes as the TG1000 and resembles a GBU-22 in many ways. It has been developed to equip UAVs, armed trainers and light combat aircraft and was one of several new small weapons to be found at Zhuhai.

UAV weapons out in the open
Alongside the first true example of an operational, armed Chinese UAV (the AVIC Chengdu Wing Loong) at Airshow China were four different tailored lightweight weapons. On its underwing hardpoints the UAV carried a pair of Norinco HJ-10 (KD-10) air-to-surface anti-armour missiles identified on this occasion with their export designation Blue Arrow 7. The Hellfire-class HJ-10 has already been extensively trialled with the Wing Loong and this particular aircraft was painted with 15 'missile shot' silhouettes.

The AVIC Wing Loong (flying dragon) UAV made its Airshow China debut this year as a real piece of hardware. The array of weapons around it showed that China's designers have been working had to give it operational combat capabilities. (Robert Hewson)

The LOEC LS-6-50 small-diameter bomb was displayed with the Wing Loong: the first time this weapon has been expressly associated with a UAV. Elsewhere at the show LOEC exhibited the separate semi-active laser and electro-optical seekers for the 50 kg-class LS-6-50 and the 100 kg-class LS-6-100.

Two recently developed small weapons from CASIC (China Aerospace Science and Industry Corporation) were also arranged alongside the Wing Loong. The YZ-200 is described by CASIC as a precision-guided bomb for UAVs, helicopters, and fighter aircraft. While CASIC did not identify the guidance type used, the display article was identified as a laser-guided bomb. A CASIC YZ-100 anti-personnel bomb was also on show.

In the exhibition halls a model of the CASIC CM-502KG air-to-surface missile was displayed carried by a model of CASIC's high-speed WJ-600 UAV. A similar configuration was present at Airshow China 2010, but the weapon was not identified on that occasion. Now CASIC notes that the CM-502KG is a lightweight missile with a 25 km range and an 11 kg warhead optimised for precise strikes against targets on land or at sea.

CASIC displayed this illustration of its CM-502KG glide bomb, which bears more than a little resemblance to the Boeing GBU-39 SDB I. (Robert Hewson)

Another contender in the small precision weapon arena could be glimpsed at Norinco, where Harbin Jiancheng displayed a range of 90 mm airborne rockets designated Tianjian (Sky Arrow). Company data says that a guidance option is available and a brochure illustration depicts what appears to be a laser-guided rocket: the first time such a system has been observed in China.

Air weapon powerhouse
There was an avalanche of new weapon programmes in evidence at Airshow China and, while it is not possible to assess the real status of many of these, experience shows that most of what first appears at Zhuhai ends up as real hardware. In many cases, some of what is presented as 'brochure-ware' in public is already hardware, as evidenced by the appearance this year of AVIC's 'conceptual fighter' model (the real-world Shenyang J-31) and illustrations of the CASIC CM-400AKG very-high-speed missile - which was later confirmed to already be in PAF service.

CASIC continued to tease observers at the event with glimpses of several significant new weapons. These included the CM-506KG: seemingly a close copy of the US GBU-39 Small Diameter Bomb. Illustrations show a compact precision-guided glide bomb in the 150 kg class fitted with a DiamondBack-type folding wing that gives a claimed range of 130 km. The baseline weapon has GPS/INS guidance, but this can be augmented with additional terminal seekers.

The radar-guided CASIC C-705 anti-ship missile, meanwhile, has been transformed into a multipurpose air-launched weapon. The new C-705KD is turbojet-powered weapon with a range of 140 km. It is fitted with a TV/imaging infrared seeker and datalink for precision attack, with man-in-the-loop control. A new warhead and fuze can also be fitted.

The C-602 anti-ship missile has also evolved into the CM-602G land-attack weapon, which can be fired from a three-tube mobile truck launcher as well as from ships. The missile has a 290 km range with a 480 kg penetrating blast/fragmentation warhead. The CM-602G has a baseline GPS/INS guidance fit that can be augmented to provide man-in-the-loop control, according to CASIC.

SAM array
An array of new ground-based air-defence systems (GBADS) were also on display in Zhuhai, with a clear trend towards mobile, multipurpose systems with a combination of gun and missile armament.

CASIC showed its KS-1000 short- to medium-range SAM, part of the new FK-1000 mobile system. The KS-1000 bears a strong resemblance to the KBP 9M311 missile that equips several Russian air-defence systems, while the FK-1000 itself has adopted a configuration not unlike KBP's Pantsir-S1 truck-mounted mobile gun/missile system.

According to CASIC, the FK-1000 is an all-weather mid- to low-altitude air-defence system with a combined gun/missile armament in an integrated combat vehicle capable of conducting independent acquisition, tracking and engagement of multiple targets. The system is designed for battlefield air defence against fixed-wing aircraft, helicopters, UAVs, and cruise missiles.

Also to hand was a new evolution of the CASIC FL-2000 mobile short-range air-defence system: the FL-2000C. This is a 4x4 truck-mounted system that is larger and more capable than the various FL-2000 systems seen to date (of which there are at least three). The FL-2000C has a combined radar and electro-optical target detection and tracking system and is armed with two pods of a new type of infrared (IR)-guided SAM. CASIC does not identify this weapon but notes that it has a 90 mm diameter. Elsewhere a new type of staring IR seeker designated the FB-10 was displayed by CASIC and this is almost certainly linked with the FL-2000C.

The CASIC FL-2000C is the latest evolution in the FL-2000 series of mobile air-defence systems. It has adopted a new IR-guided missile that is significantly larger than the MANPADS-type missiles used previously. (Robert Hewson)

Export versions of CASIC's heavy mobile SAM systems - the FD-2000 (HQ-9) and LY-80 (HQ-16) - were shown at Zhuhai along with their missiles and associated radar vehicles. Hardware for these systems had not been displayed previously at Airshow China.

Under the AVIC banner, LOEC revealed a surface-to-air version of its SD-10A air-to-air missile (AAM) that is very different to earlier proposals for a ground-based SD-10. This surface-launched SD-10A is extensively modified to combine the forward section of the AAM with an entirely new mid- and rear section. The revised missile is now 5.054 m long but retains the same fuselage diameter as the AAM. Four new centrebody strakes are attached to the airframe, which also has significantly enlarged tail fins to provide the enhanced manoeuvring control the SAM demands. AVIC says the SD-10A SAM has an effective range of 50 km and an operating altitude of 30 m to 20,000 m.

Robert Hewson is editor of Weapons: Air-Launched, based in London
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## fatman17

*
PAK MIL
Arms imports to Pakistan, 1948-2012 *

Canada Pakistan (3) AN/APS-504(V) MP aircraft radar 1984 1986 - 1988 (3) For 3 F-27 transport aircraft modified to F-27Maritime MP aircraft in the Netherlands

China Pakistan 1 YLC-2 Air search radar 2003 2003 - 2003 1

China Pakistan 10 YLC-6 Air search radar 2003 2005 - 2006 (10)

China Pakistan (100) WMD-7 Aircraft EO system 2008 2009 - 2012 (70) For JF-17 combat aircraft

China Pakistan (2) SLC-2 Arty locating radar 2008 2010 - 2010 (2) For use with A-100 MRL

China Pakistan (25) Type-501B Fire control radar 1964 1964 - 1967 (25)

China Pakistan 3 LL-1 Fire control radar 1994 1996 - 1997 (3) For modernization of 3 Tariq (Amazon or Type-21)Class frigates; for use with LY-60N SAMs

China Pakistan 2 Type-347G Fire control radar 1996 1997 - 1999 2 For 2 Jalalat FAC produced in Pakistan

China Pakistan 2 Type-347G Fire control radar 2003 2006 - 2006 2 For 2 Jurrat FAC produced in Pakistan

France Pakistan (20) ATLIS Aircraft EO system 1985 1986 - 1987 (20) For F-16 combat aircraft

France Pakistan 12 ATLIS Aircraft EO system 1990 1991 - 1991 (12) Atlis-2 version

France Pakistan 2 ATAS ASW sonar 1999 2000 - 2001 (2) For modernization of 2 Amazon (Tariq) frigates

France Pakistan 6 DRPT-5 Rasit Ground surv radar 1988 1989 - 1991 (6)

France Pakistan 7 Ocean Master MP aircraft radar 1990 1995 - 1999 (7) For modernization of 4 Atlantic ASW/MP aircraft and3 F-27 Maritime MP aircraft

Germany Pakistan (45) DR-161/MPDR-45 Air search radar 1977 1979 - 1981 (45) MPDR-45E version; incl MPDR-60

Germany Pakistan (5) DR-172/MPDR-90 Air search radar 1977 1979 - 1980 (5)

Germany Pakistan 4 DSQS-23 ASW sonar 2005 2009 - 2010 3 For 4 F-22 (Zulfiquar) frigates from China

Italy Pakistan (2) Argos-73 Air/sea search radar 1998 1999 - 2000 (2)

Italy Pakistan (135) Grifo Combat ac radar 1995 2000 - 2004 (135) Yes Grifo-7 version; for modernization of some 35Mirage-3 and 100 F-7P combat aircraft

Italy Pakistan (57) Grifo Combat ac radar 2002 2004 - 2005 (57) Yes Grifo-7PG version; for 57 F-7MG (F-7PG) combataircraft from China

Netherlands Pakistan (3) DA-08 Air search radar 1994 1997 - 1998 (3) For modernization of 3 Tariq (Amazon) frigates

Soviet Union Pakistan 2 P-37/Bar Lock Air search radar 1968 1969 - 1969 2

Soviet Union Pakistan 2 PRV-11/Side Net Height-finding radar 1968 1969 - 1969 2

Sweden Pakistan (8) Giraffe-40 Air search radar 1986 1987 - 1988 (8) Part of $91 m deal

Sweden Pakistan (2) Giraffe-40 Air search radar 1993 1993 - 1993 (2)

Switzerland Pakistan (10) Skyguard Fire control radar 1981 1983 - 1984 (10) For use with GDF-002 35mm AA guns

Switzerland Pakistan (100) Skyguard Fire control radar 1988 1989 - 1996 (100) For use with GDF-002 35mm AA guns; assembled inPakistan

© SIPRI 1 February 2014. For terms and conditions of use see

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*
Arms imports to Pakistan, 1948-2012 *

Switzerland Pakistan (24) Skyguard Fire control radar 2006 2007 - 2009 (24) Part of CHF156 m ($120 m) deal; for use with GDF35mm AA guns

UnitedKingdomPakistan (3) AMES Type-14 Air search radar 1951 1952 - 1952 (3)

UnitedKingdomPakistan (2) AMES Type-15 Air search radar 1954 1955 - 1956 (2)

UnitedKingdomPakistan 3 Condor Air search radar 1966 1968 - 1968 3

UnitedKingdomPakistan 9 AR-1 Air search radar 1967 1968 - 1969 (9) Incl 3 AR-15 version

UnitedKingdomPakistan (3) AMES Type-13 Height-finding radar 1951 1952 - 1952 (3)

UnitedKingdomPakistan 1 HF-200 Height-finding radar 1967 1967 - 1967 1

United States Pakistan 2 AN/FPS-20 Air search radar 1959 1960 - 1960 2 'MAP' aid

United States Pakistan 6 AN/TPS-43 Air search radar 1979 1980 - 1981 (6) 'Crystal-2' programme; AN/TPS-43G version

United States Pakistan (4) LAADS Air search radar 1989 1990 - 1990 (4) Yes

United States Pakistan 6 AN/TPS-77 Air search radar 2005 2008 - 2009 (6) $89 m or $100 m deal (financed with 'FMF' aid)

United States Pakistan 18 AAQ-33 Sniper Aircraft EO system 2007 2010 - 2010 (18) For F-16 combat aircraft

United States Pakistan (2) DB-110 Aircraft recce system 2009 2009 - 2009 (2) For F-16 combat aircraft

United States Pakistan (9) AN/TPQ-36 Firefinder Arty locating radar 1982 1984 - 1985 (9)

United States Pakistan 4 AN/TPQ-37 Firefinder Arty locating radar 1985 1987 - 1996 (4) Delivery of last embargoed between 1992 and 1995

United States Pakistan 5 AN/TPQ-36 Firefinder Arty locating radar 1988 1989 - 1989 5

United States Pakistan 4 AN/TPQ-36 Firefinder Arty locating radar 1990 1996 - 1996 (4) Deal worth $105 m; delivery embargoed between1992 and 1995

United States Pakistan (35) AN/APG-68 Combat ac radar 2007 2012 - 2012 (10) AN/APG-68(V)9 version; for 'Mid-Life Update' (MLU)modernization of 35 F-16A combat aircraft to F-16C(F-16AM or F-16MLU)

United States Pakistan 2 AN/FPS-6 Height-finding radar 1959 1960 - 1960 2 'MAP' aid

Source:
SIPRI Arms Transfers Database, retrieved 1 February 2014

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Terms and conditions of use — www.sipri.org

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## fatman17

*
Aircraft
Arms imports to Pakistan, 1948-2012 *

Australia Pakistan 45 Mirage-3E FGA aircraft 1990 1990 - 1991 (45) Ex-Australian; $28 m deal; Mirage-3OA version; inclsome Mirage-3OD; modernized in Pakistan afterdelivery; 5 more for for spares only

China Pakistan 4 ZDK-03 AEW&C aircraft 2008 2011 - 2012 (2) $278 m deal

China Pakistan (6) AS-565SA Panther ASW helicopter 2005 2009 - 2010 (6) Z-9EC version

China Pakistan 4 Il-28/Beagle Bomber aircraft 1965 1966 - 1966 4 H-5 (B-5) version; Pakistani designation B-56

China Pakistan 52 A-5C/Fantan FGA aircraft 1981 1983 - 1984 (52) A-5III version

China Pakistan (150) JF-17 Thunder/FC-1 FGA aircraft 1999 2007 - 2012 (61) Yes Developed for Pakistan; incl production ofcomponents and assembly in Pakistan; incl 8 mainlyfor testing and first 42 production version ordered2009 for $800 m

China Pakistan (6) A-5C/Fantan FGA aircraft 2003 2003 - 2003 6

China Pakistan 72 F-6/Farmer Fighter aircraft 1965 1965 - 1966 (72) Aid

China Pakistan (103) F-6/Farmer Fighter aircraft 1971 1971 - 1972 (103) Deal incl complete F-6 overhaul factory and probablysome FT-6 trainer version

China Pakistan (2) MiG-17PF/Fresco-D Fighter aircraft 1974 1975 - 1975 (2)

China Pakistan 60 F-6/Farmer Fighter aircraft 1977 1978 - 1980 (60)

China Pakistan 20 MiG-17PF/Fresco-D Fighter aircraft 1978 1978 - 1978 (20)

China Pakistan (25) F-6/Farmer Fighter aircraft 1979 1980 - 1981 (25) FT-6 trainer version

China Pakistan 24 F-7M Airguard Fighter aircraft 1986 1987 - 1988 (24) F-7P (F-7MP) version; incl 4 FT-7 version

China Pakistan 75 F-7M Airguard Fighter aircraft 1988 1989 - 1991 (75) $225 m deal; F-7P (F-7MP) version; incl 15 FT-7Pversion

China Pakistan 40 F-7M Airguard Fighter aircraft 1992 1993 - 1993 40 F-7P (F-7MP) version

China Pakistan 46 F-7MG Fighter aircraft 2001 2001 - 2003 (46) F-7PG version; incl 6 or 9 FT-7PG version

China Pakistan 11 F-7MG Fighter aircraft 2002 2003 - 2003 11 F-7PG version

China Pakistan (6) Y-12 Light transport ac 1995 1996 - 1997 (6)

China Pakistan (4) MiG-15UTI/Midget Trainer aircraft 1965 1966 - 1967 (4) Ex-Chinese

China Pakistan (50) FT-5 Trainer aircraft 1974 1975 - 1976 (50)

China Pakistan 14 FT-5 Trainer aircraft 1984 1985 - 1985 (14)

China Pakistan 6 K-8 Karakorum-8 Trainer/combat ac 1987 1994 - 1994 6 Yes Incl some components produced in Pakistan andsome assembled in Pakistan

China Pakistan 6 K-8 Karakorum-8 Trainer/combat ac 2001 2003 - 2003 6 Yes Incl production of components and assembly inPakistan

China Pakistan 27 K-8 Karakorum-8 Trainer/combat ac 2005 2007 - 2010 27 Yes K-8P version

France Pakistan 3 Atlantic ASW aircraft 1974 1975 - 1976 3 Ex-French; modernized before delivery

© SIPRI 1 February 2014. For terms and conditions of use see
Terms and conditions of use — www.sipri.org

*

Arms imports to Pakistan, 1948-2012 *
France Pakistan 1 Atlantic ASW aircraft 1988 1988 - 1988 1 Ex-French; modernized before delivery

France Pakistan 24 Mirage-3E FGA aircraft 1967 1968 - 1968 24 Mirage-3EP version; incl 3 Mirage-3RP
reconnaissance and 3 Mirage-3DP version

France Pakistan 30 Mirage-5 FGA aircraft 1970 1971 - 1972 (30) Mirage-5PA version; incl 2 Mirage-5DPA version

France Pakistan 10 Mirage-3E FGA aircraft 1975 1977 - 1977 10 Mirage-3RD reconnaissance version

France Pakistan 32 Mirage-5 FGA aircraft 1979 1980 - 1983 (32) $343 m deal; Mirage-5PA-3 maritime attack version;incl 2 Mirage-5DPA-2

France Pakistan (40) Mirage-5 FGA aircraft 1996 1998 - 2004 (40) Ex-French; $120 m 'Blue Flash-6' deal; modernized(ROSE-2 and ROSE-3 programme) before delivery;incl 6 Mirage-3D

France Pakistan (32) SA-330 Puma Helicopter 1976 1978 - 1979 (32) SA-330L version

France Pakistan 4 SA-316B Alouette-3 Light helicopter 1967 1968 - 1968 4 For SAR

France Pakistan 36 SA-316B Alouette-3 Light helicopter 1968 1972 - 1982 (36) Assembled in Pakistan

France Pakistan (20) SA-315B Lama Light helicopter 1985 1987 - 1988 (20)

France Pakistan 12 SA-315B Lama Light helicopter 1992 1992 - 1993 (12) $18.9 m deal

France Pakistan 10 AS-350/AS-550 Fennec Light helicopter 2004 2006 - 2006 10 AS-350B3 version

France Pakistan 8 SA-316B Alouette-3 Light helicopter 2005 2008 - 2008 (8) Ex-French; SA-319B version

France Pakistan 10 AS-350/AS-550 Fennec Light helicopter 2007 2010 - 2010 (10) Armed AS-550C3 version

France Pakistan 7 AS-350/AS-550 Fennec Light helicopter 2009 2011 - 2011 (7) S-350B3 version

France Pakistan 2 Falcon-20 SIGINT aircraft 1985 1986 - 1986 2

Germany Pakistan 90 F-86F Sabre Fighter aircraft 1965 1966 - 1966 90 Ex-FRG; officially bought by Iran, but transferred toPakistan

Germany Pakistan (30) Luna UAV 2006 2007 - 2008 (30) For 3 Luna UAV systems; delivery temporarily
delayed after Pakistani state of emergency in 2007

Indonesia Pakistan 3 CN-235 Transport aircraft 2002 2004 - 2004 (3) Part of $49-54 m deal (incl $24 m for 1 more for VIPtransport); CN-235-220 version

Iran Pakistan 10 Bell-205/UH-1D Helicopter 1974 1974 - 1975 (10) Ex-Iranian; aid; AB-205 version

Iran Pakistan (3) C-130B Hercules Transport aircraft 1966 1967 - 1967 (3) Ex-Iranian

Iran Pakistan 5 C-130E Hercules Transport aircraft 1974 1974 - 1974 5 Ex-Iranian

Italy Pakistan (25) Falco UAV 2006 2008 - 2009 (25) Incl assembly in Pakistan

Italy Pakistan (25) Falco UAV 2009 2010 - 2011 (25) Yes Including production of components and assembly inPakistan

Jordan Pakistan 10 F-104A Starfighter Fighter aircraft 1971 1971 - 1971 (10) Ex-Jordanian; loan (returned to Jordan 1972)

Lebanon Pakistan (10) Mirage-3E FGA aircraft 2000 2002 - 2002 10 Ex-Lebanese; $4.7 m deal; Mirage-3EL version; incl1 Mirage-3BL

Libya Pakistan (10) Mirage-5 FGA aircraft 2004 2007 - 2010 (10) Ex-Libyan; 50-70 delivered but most for spare partsonly

Netherlands Pakistan 4 SA-316B Alouette-3 Light helicopter 1994 1995 - 1995 4 Ex-Dutch

New Zealand Pakistan 1 F-27 Friendship Transport aircraft 1991 1992 - 1992 (1) Second-hand; F-27 Mk-100 version; bought via UK;modernized in UK before delivery; incl for MP

New Zealand Pakistan 1 F-27 Friendship Transport aircraft 1994 1994 - 1994 1 Second-hand; F-27 Mk-100 version; bought via UKcompany; modernized in UK before delivery; incl forMP

Romania Pakistan 4 SA-330 Puma Helicopter 1987 1988 - 1988 4 IAR-330 version

© SIPRI 1 February 2014. For terms and conditions of use see
Terms and conditions of use — www.sipri.org

*
Arms imports to Pakistan, 1948-2012 *

Russia Pakistan 5 Mi-8MT/Mi-17/Hip-H Helicopter 1995 1995 - 1995 5 $4.2 m deal; incl for SAR and VIP transport; orderedvia Danish company

Russia Pakistan 12 Mi-8MT/Mi-17/Hip-H Helicopter 1995 1996 - 1996 12 $32 m deal; Mi-17 version

Russia Pakistan 12 Mi-8MT/Mi-17/Hip-H Helicopter 2001 2002 - 2002 (12) Part of $50 m deal; delivery delayed after Indiancomplaints from 2001 until 2002-2003

Russia Pakistan 4 Mi-8MT/Mi-17/Hip-H Helicopter 2001 2002 - 2002 4 Second-hand; modernized before delivery; part of$50 m deal

Russia Pakistan 12 Mi-8MT/Mi-17/Hip-H Helicopter 2003 2004 - 2004 12 Part of $51 m deal; Mi-17 version; 1 more deliveredfor VIP transport; ordered via UK company

Soviet Union Pakistan (12) Mi-8T/Hip-C Helicopter 1967 1968 - 1970 (12)

Soviet Union Pakistan 1 Mi-6T/Hook-A Helicopter 1968 1968 - 1968 1 For evaluation

Soviet Union Pakistan (11) Mi-8T/Hip-C Helicopter 1983 1984 - 1985 (11)

Sweden Pakistan 4 Saab-2000 AEW AEW&C aircraft 2006 2009 - 2010 (4) Original SEK8.3 b deal for 6-8 reduced to SEK7 bdeal for 4

Sweden Pakistan 15 MFI-17 Supporter Trainer aircraft 1973 1974 - 1976 (15) Pakistani designation Mushshak

Sweden Pakistan (242) MFI-17 Supporter Trainer aircraft 1974 1975 - 1997 (242) Yes 92 assembled from kits and rest produced inPakistan; Pakistani designation Mushshak

Sweden Pakistan (150) MFI-17 Supporter Trainer aircraft 2001 2001 - 2012 (126) Yes Super Mushshak version

Sweden Pakistan 1 Saab-2000 Transport aircraft 2006 2008 - 2008 1 Second-hand; modernized before delivery

Ukraine Pakistan 4 Il-78M/Midas Tanker/transport ac 2006 2009 - 2011 (4) Ex-Ukrainian; probably modernized before delivery

United ArabEmiratesPakistan 4 SA-316B Alouette-3 Light helicopter 1987 1987 - 1987 4 Ex-UAE; aid

UnitedKingdomPakistan 6 Sea King HAS-1 ASW helicopter 1973 1974 - 1974 (6) Sea King Mk-45 version

UnitedKingdomPakistan 3 Lynx ASW helicopter 1994 1994 - 1994 3 Ex-UK; Lynx HAS-3 version; option on 3 more

UnitedKingdomPakistan 36 Attacker Fighter aicraft 1950 1951 - 1953 (36)

UnitedKingdomPakistan (90) Sea Fury Fighter aircraft 1949 1950 - 1952 (90) Sea Fury Mk-60 version; incl 5 T-61 trainer version

UnitedKingdomPakistan 5 Sea Fury Fighter aircraft 1953 1953 - 1954 (5) Ex-UK, Sea Fury version

UnitedKingdomPakistan 1 Sea King HAR-3 Helicopter 1989 1989 - 1989 1 Ex-UK; Sea King HAS-5 ASW version modified to SeaKing Mk-45A before delivery (ASW equipmentremoved)

UnitedKingdomPakistan (2) Auster AOP Light aircraft 1953 1953 - 1953 2

UnitedKingdomPakistan 2 SA-316B Alouette-3 Light helicopter 2005 2008 - 2008 2 Second-hand; SA-319B version

UnitedKingdomPakistan 1 BN-2 Maritime MP aircraft 1992 1993 - 1993 1 For coast guard

UnitedKingdomPakistan 1 BN-2 Maritime MP aircraft 1994 1994 - 1994 (1) $1.4 m deal; for coast guard

UnitedKingdomPakistan (75) Bristol-170 Freighter Transport aircraft 1949 1950 - 1955 (75)

United States Pakistan 2 ISR King Air-350 AGS aircraft 2008 2011 - 2011 2 King Air-350 version; aid

United States Pakistan 3 P-3C Orion Update-2.5 ASW aircraft 1988 1996 - 1997 3 $139 m deal; delivery embargoed between 1992 and1995; P-3C Orion Update-2.75 version

United States Pakistan 7 P-3CUP Orion ASW aircraft 2005 2007 - 2012 7 Ex-US P-3C rebuilt to P-3CUP in USA (paid with $970m US 'SAP' aid); first 2 delivered without completesystems (to be installed later)

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## fatman17

*
Arms imports to Pakistan, 1948-2012
*
United States Pakistan 26 Canberra B-57B Bomber aircraft 1958 1959 - 1959 26 Ex-US (but only few years old); 'MAP' aid; incl 2 B-57C trainer version

United States Pakistan 10 Bell-209/AH-1S Combat helicopter 1981 1984 - 1985 (10)

United States Pakistan 10 Bell-209/AH-1S Combat helicopter 1982 1986 - 1986 10

United States Pakistan (12) Bell-209/AH-1F Cobra Combat helicopter 2004 2007 - 2007 (12) Ex-US; $48 m deal (financed with 'FMF' aid);modernized before delivery; 20-28 more for sparesonly

United States Pakistan (14) Bell-209/AH-1F Cobra Combat helicopter 2009 2010 - 2010 (14) Ex-US

United States Pakistan 40 F-16A FGA aircraft 1981 1983 - 1985 (40) $1.2 b 'Peace Gate-1' and 'Peace Gate-2' deal; F-16Block-15 version; incl 11 F-16B

United States Pakistan 14 F-16A FGA aircraft 2005 2005 - 2008 14 Ex-US (but only used 2-4 years); originally producedfor Pakistan but delivery embargoed 1988, takenover by USA 2002 and after few years given as aid toPakistan); aid

United States Pakistan 18 F-16C Block-50/52 FGA aircraft 2007 2010 - 2010 18 $1.4 b 'Peace Drive 1' deal (part of $3.1 b deal); incl6 F-16D

United States Pakistan (80) F-86F Sabre Fighter aircraft 1954 1956 - 1958 (80) Ex-US; modernized before delivery; 'MAP' aid

United States Pakistan 40 F-86F Sabre Fighter aircraft 1954 1957 - 1958 (40) 'MAP' aid

United States Pakistan (12) F-104A Starfighter Fighter aircraft 1960 1961 - 1962 (12) Ex-US; modernized before delivery; incl 2 F-104B

United States Pakistan 8 S-55/H-19 Chickasaw Helicopter 1956 1958 - 1958 8 For SAR; 'MAP' aid

United States Pakistan 4 S-55/H-19 Chickasaw Helicopter 1957 1957 - 1957 (4)

United States Pakistan (6) HH-43B/F Huskie Helicopter 1962 1963 - 1964 (6) For SAR; 'MAP' aid; HH-43F version

United States Pakistan 6 Bell-205/UH-1H Helicopter 1973 1973 - 1973 6 Ex-US; aid

United States Pakistan 5 Bell-205/UH-1 Huey-2 Helicopter 2001 2002 - 2002 5 Ex-US UH-1H rebuilt to Huey-2 before delivery; partof $73 m US; for Ministry of Interior; aid for Afghanborder patrol and anti-narcotics operations

United States Pakistan 26 Bell-412 Helicopter 2004 2004 - 2005 26 Originally $230 m deal for 2 year lease but given toPakistan in 2007 (financed with 'CSF' aid); fromCanadian production line; for use in 'war onterrorism'; incl some for police; Bell-412EP version

United States Pakistan 4 Bell-205/UH-1 Huey-2 Helicopter 2007 2008 - 2008 (4) Ex-US UH-1H rebuilt to Huey-2 before delivery; forMinistry of Interior; aid for Afghan border patrol andanti-narcotics operations

United States Pakistan 5 Bell-205/UH-1 Huey-2 Helicopter 2008 2009 - 2009 5 Ex-US UH-1H rebuilt to Huey-2 before delivery; forMinistry of Interior; aid for Afghan border patrol andanti-narcotics operations

United States Pakistan 2 Bell-412 Helicopter 2009 2010 - 2010 2 $23-24 m aid, Bell-412EP version

United States Pakistan 10 Mi-8MT/Mi-17/Hip-H Helicopter 2009 2009 - 2009 10 Ex-US; Mi-17 version; incl 6 on 5-year lease; aid

United States Pakistan 60 O-1/L-19 Bird Dog Light aircraft 1957 1957 - 1958 (60) Probably ex-US (but maximum few years old); 'MDAP'aid

United States Pakistan 1 Bonanza Light aircraft 1959 1960 - 1960 (1) Bonanza V-35 version

United States Pakistan (5) O-1/L-19 Bird Dog Light aircraft 1971 1972 - 1972 (5) Assembled in Pakistan

United States Pakistan 1 Hiller-12/OH-23 Raven Light helicopter 1951 1952 - 1952 1

United States Pakistan (18) Bell-47/OH-13 Light helicopter 1963 1964 - 1964 (18) Ex-US; 'MAP' aid; no. could be up to 32

United States Pakistan 12 Bell-206/OH-58 Light helicopter 1975 1976 - 1976 12 Bell-206A version

United States Pakistan 1 Commander-680FL Light transport ac 1960 1961 - 1961 (1) Commander-690C version

© SIPRI 1 February 2014. For terms and conditions of use see
Terms and conditions of use — www.sipri.org

*
Arms imports to Pakistan, 1948-2012
*
United States Pakistan 2 Queen Air Light transport ac 1962 1963 - 1963 (2) Second-hand

United States Pakistan 1 Twin Bonanza Light transport ac 1963 1964 - 1964 (1) U-8F version

United States Pakistan 1 Commander-680FL Light transport ac 1965 1966 - 1966 1 Incl for VIP transport; Commander-690C version

United States Pakistan 1 Travel Air Light transport ac 1965 1966 - 1966 1

United States Pakistan 2 PA-34 Seneca Light transport ac 1977 1978 - 1978 (2)

United States Pakistan 1 Commander-680FL Light transport ac 1983 1983 - 1983 1 Second-hand; Commander-840 version

United States Pakistan 3 Cessna-208 Caravan Light transport ac 2001 2002 - 2002 (3) For Ministry of Interior; aid for Afghan border patroland anti-narcotics operations

United States Pakistan 1 Baron Light transport ac. 1979 1980 - 1980 1

United States Pakistan 4 HU-16B Albatross MP/transport ac 1956 1956 - 1957 (4) Ex-US; SA-16A SAR version

United States Pakistan 6 RT-33A T-Bird Reconnaissance ac 1956 1957 - 1957 (6) 'MAP' aid

United States Pakistan (1) RB-57F Canberra Reconnaissance ac 1964 1965 - 1965 (1) Ex-US B-57/RB-57 rebuilt to RB-57F

United States Pakistan 1 RH-800RA/SIG Reconnaissance ac 2009 2010 - 2010 1 Hawker-850XP version

United States Pakistan (15) T-33A Shooting Star Trainer aircraft 1954 1955 - 1956 (15) Ex-US; 'MAP' aid; no. could be 32

United States Pakistan (10) T-6 Texan Trainer aircraft 1960 1960 - 1960 (10) Ex-US

United States Pakistan 27 T-37B Trainer aircraft 1961 1962 - 1964 (27) 'MAP' aid; incl 21 T-37C version

United States Pakistan 6 T-37B Trainer aircraft 1967 1968 - 1968 (6) 'MAP' aid; T-37C version

United States Pakistan 7 T-37B Trainer aircraft 1974 1977 - 1977 7 'MAP' aid; T-37C version

United States Pakistan 16 T-37B Trainer aircraft 1976 1977 - 1977 (16) Ex-US; lease

United States Pakistan 6 T-37B Trainer aircraft 1979 1980 - 1980 6 Ex-US

United States Pakistan (40) T-37B Trainer aircraft 2003 2009 - 2012 (40) Ex-US; aid; possibly modernized before delivery;probably 19 more for spares

United States Pakistan 5 Cessna-172/T-41 Trainer/light ac 1974 1975 - 1975 5

United States Pakistan 4 C-130B Hercules Transport aircraft 1962 1963 - 1963 4 'MAP' aid

United States Pakistan 2 C-130B Hercules Transport aircraft 1973 1974 - 1975 2 Ex-US

United States Pakistan 3 C-130B Hercules Transport aircraft 1979 1979 - 1981 3 Ex-US

United States Pakistan 6 C-130E Hercules Transport aircraft 2004 2005 - 2007 (6) Ex-Australian aircraft sold back to US producer andsold to Pakistan; $64 m or $76 m deal (financed with'FMF' aid); modernized before delivery; 1 more forspares only

Source:
SIPRI Arms Transfers Database, retrieved 1 February 2014

© SIPRI 1 February 2014. For terms and conditions of use see
Terms and conditions of use — www.sipri.org

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## imiakhtar

fatman17 said:


> Canada Pakistan (3) AN/APS-504(V) MP aircraft radar



There was a story my uncle once told me about the '71 war (he was ex PAF pilot flying for Gulf Air). It was narrated to him by a fellow pilot at PIA and as is oft the case, this story could very well have been embellished. 

Apparently, PIA was ordered by the PAF/PN/MoD to patrol the seas around Karachi during the war with their F-27 aircraft. Some pilots resorted to using their weather radars in an attempt to find surface targets.

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## fatman17

imiakhtar said:


> There was a story my uncle once told me about the '71 war (he was ex PAF pilot flying for Gulf Air). It was narrated to him by a fellow pilot at PIA and as is oft the case, this story could very well have been embellished.
> 
> Apparently, PIA was ordered by the PAF/PN/MoD to patrol the seas around Karachi during the war with their F-27 aircraft. Some pilots resorted to using their weather radars in an attempt to find surface targets.


 
quite possible


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## nomi007

still did not see paf calendar 2014


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## nomi007

The Birth of Pakistan Air Force, 15 August 1947.

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## fatman17

*The world’s most effective air-to-air missiles*
29 January 2014 

Advanced air-to-air missiles (AAMs) such as the Meteor, IRIS-T and AIM-9X Sidewinder form the core weaponry used in a dogfight scenario.




Advanced air-to-air missiles (AAMs) such as the Meteor, IRIS-T and AIM-9X Sidewinder form the core weaponry used in a dogfight scenario. Airforce-technology.com lists the world's ten most effective air-to-air missiles based on precision and engagement features.
*Meteor BVRAAM*
The Meteor is a next generation beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM) developed by MBDA for the common requirements of France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Sweden and the United Kingdom. The ability to counter the current and future combat threats makes it one of the best air-to-air missiles in the world.
The UK Ministry of Defence placed a contract, on behalf of six nations, for the Meteor missiles in December 2002. Development firing trials of the missile were successfully concluded by 2012. The missile will be integrated on modern combat aircraft such as Eurofighter Typhoon, Saab Gripen Dassault Rafale and F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.
The Meteor BVRAAM features a state-of-the-art active radar seeker, a two-way data link communication, and a solid-fuelled Ramjet motor to engage a wide range of targets with pin point accuracy. It also carries a blast fragmentation warhead with proximity and impact fuses for optimum lethality. The missile has high countermeasures resistance and offers the biggest 'no escape zone.'
*IRIS-T (Infra Red Imaging System Tail/Thrust Vector-Controlled)*
The IRIS-T (Infra-Red Imaging System - Tail/Thrust Vector Controlled) is a new generation short-range air-to-air missile produced by Diehl BGT Defence. The missile can engage aerial targets within a range of 25km.
The missile was developed by Diehl, a company based in Germany, in partnership with companies from Greece, Italy, Canada, Norway and Spain to replace the AIM-9L Sidewinder AAM. The first series production version of the IRIS-T was delivered to the German Air Force in December 2005.
The IRIS-T can destroy a wide variety of targets with its high explosive fragmented warhead fitted with a proximity fuse. It is fitted as a standard weapon for Eurofighter Typhoon, F-16, EF-18, Tornado and Gripen fighter aircraft. It is equipped with imaging infra-red (IIR) seeker for high accuracy and all-aspect capability in severe electronic counter measures (ECM) environments. The solid-fuelled motor with thrust vector control ensures the engagement of highly manoeuvrable targets.
*MICA*
The MICA (Missile d'Interception, de Combat et d'Autodéfense) is a short- and Beyond Visual Range (BVR) AAM system developed by MBDA for the Rafale and advanced variants of Mirage 2000 combat aircraft.
The system includes two variants - MICA (EM) RF featuring an active radio frequency seeker and MICA IR featuring a dual waveband imaging infrared seeker to defeat enemy counter measures. A surface-launched version, named VL MICA, is also available for use by naval or ground-based air defence systems.
The MICA is fitted with a focused splinters HE warhead and is compatible with any advanced fighter aircraft. Its lightweight and compact dimensions allow for integration of up to six missiles on medium to lightweight fighters.
*PYTHON-5*
The Python-5 from Rafael Advanced Defence Systems is a fifth generation air-to-air missile designed to engage very short range and near beyond visual range targets. It is the newest member of the Python missile range and one of the most advanced AAMs in the world.
The Python-5 has high resistance against countermeasures and can be deployed on a wide range of aircraft such as F-15, F-16, Mirage, Saab Gripen and Su-30MKI. The missile is equipped with a new dual waveband Focal Plane Array (FPA) imaging seeker, inertial navigation system and advanced Infrared Counter-Counter-Measures (IRCCM).
The Python-5 can be launched from a very short to beyond visual ranges in Lock-On-Before Launch (LOBL) and Lock-On-After Launch modes with full sphere launch capability. The solid fuel rocket motor and warhead ensure a high probability of success.
*AIM-120 AMRAAM*
The AIM-120 Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missile (AMRAAM) developed by Raytheon has proved its combat capabilities during missions in Iraq, Bosnia and Kosovo. Multi-shot capability, immunity to countermeasures, and low smoke solid-fuel rocket motor make the AIM-120 one of the world's best AAMs.
The AMRAAM was ordered by 36 nations across the world. It can be attached aboard F-22, Eurofighter Typhoon, F-15, F-16, F/A-18, F-35 JSF, Sea Harrier, Tornado, Harrier II Plus, JAS-39 Gripen, and the Norwegian Advanced Surface-to-Air Missile System (NASAMS).
The missile is guided by an internal active radar seeker complemented by an inertial reference unit and microcomputer. The missile carries a high-explosive fragmentation warhead with proximity and contact fuses.
*AIM-9X Sidewinder*
The AIM-9X Sidewinder from Raytheon is the latest member in the Sidewinder family of short-range air-to-air missiles. Touted as one of the most advanced short-range AAMs in the world, it can be easily integrated on a wide range of modern combat aircraft.
The missile is inducted by the US Navy and Air Force as well as air forces of eight international customers. It is deployed on F-15, F-16, F/A-18, Sea Harrier and F-4 fighters, A-4, AV-8B and Tornado attack aircraft, and AH-1 helicopter.
The AIM-9X Block-I variant is equipped with a focal plane array IR seeker, solid-propellant rocket, and annular blast fragmentation warhead. It offers outstanding resistance against infrared countermeasures. The AIM-9X Block II variant with updated electronics is currently under development.
*AIM-132 ASRAAM*
The ASRAAM (Advanced Short Range Air-to-Air Missile) is designed by MBDA for within visual range (WVR) combat missions for the Royal Air Force (RAF). The missile is also deployed by the Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) on its F/A-18 Hornet strike aircraft.
The ASRAAM was inducted into service by the UK RAF in September 2002 and the RAAF in 2004. It can be integrated on Eurofighter Typhoon, Tornado, F/A-18, and F-35 Joint Strike Fighter. It is also compatible with aircraft fitted with AMRAAM or Sidewinder missiles.
The ASRAAM is guided by an advanced focal plane array Imaging Infra-Red (IIR) seeker and gathers the target data using the aircraft sensors. The missile integrates a high lethality blast fragmentation warhead with impact and laser proximity fuses. The low signature rocket motor fitted to the missile enables high speeds throughout the flight, while the guidance system ensures the engagement of targets in highly cluttered and countermeasures environments.
*A-Darter*
The A-Darter is a fifth generation air-to-air missile system developed by Denel Dynamics, Mectron, Avibras, and Opto Eletrônica. The missile is intended to equip next-generation fighter aircraft and is scheduled to enter into service with the South African and Brazilian air forces in 2014.
The missile can be integrated on JAS-39 Gripen, Hawk Mk120, F-5E/F Tiger II, F-5A/B and future F-X2 fighters. Its lightweight design is also compatible with conventional Sidewinder hard-points.
The missile is equipped with two-colour thermal imaging seeker and multi-mode Electronic Counter-Countermeasures (ECCM) suite for engaging targets in hostile countermeasures environment. It can also be guided towards the target by the host aircraft's radar and helmet-mounted sight.
*R-73E/R-73EL*
The R-73E/R-73EL (NATO code name: AA-11 Archer) short-range air-to-air missiles are produced by State Machine-Building Design Bureau "Vympel". The missiles are capable of intercepting fighter aircraft, bombers, attack and military transport aircraft.
The R-73E/R-73EL missiles can be fitted to MiG or Sukhoi type fighters, and other attack aircraft and helicopters. The fire-and-forget missiles employ all-aspect infrared homing guidance system for engaging the targets in cluttered and enemy active countermeasures environments.
The R-73E/R-73EL missiles are fired by P-72-1D/P-72-1DB2 air rail launcher. The solid-fuel rocket engine enables the missile to carry an 8kg continuous-rod warhead for a maximum range of 30km.
*R-77 (RVV-AE)*
The R-77 (RVV-AE) (NATO: AA-12 Adder) is a medium-range air-to-air missile developed by State Machine-Building Design Bureau "Vympel". The R-77's multi-purpose target engagement capabilities and resistance against countermeasures are among the best in the world.
The R-77 (RVV-AE) can be deployed on MiG/Sukhoi fighters and other foreign-made aircraft as well as land-based anti-air weapon systems. It is launched from AKU-170E launch unit aboard the aircraft.
The R-77 carries a 22.5kg multi-shaped charge rod type warhead for a maximum distance of 80km. An inertial/radio-corrected navigation system guides the missile during the initial flight phase, while a multi-function doppler-monopulse active radar seeker is employed in the terminal phase.

AT

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## fatman17

*Iraqi Air Force Orders Super Mushshaks from Pakistan*
Posted on: February 10th, 2014




Pakistan Air Force Super Mushshak 91-6322. A contract for an unspecified number of Super Mushshaks was signed today by the Iraqi Air Force. AFD-Alan Warnes

PAKISTAN SIGNED an agreement today, February 10, for the supply of Aircraft Manufacturing Factory (AMF) MFI-395 Super Mushshak training aircraft to the Iraqi Air Force (IqAF), marking a major export milestone for the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), which builds the type. The contract was signed in Islamabad by General Anwer Hamad Ameen Ahmed, Commander of the IqAF, and Air Marshal Sohail Gul Khan, PAC Kamra Chairman.

The number of aircraft involved in the deal was not announced. The type is an upgraded version of the MFI-17 Mushshak basic trainer, which is itself a developed version of the Swedish Saab MFI-17 Supporter. A second contract signed between Iraq and Pakistan today covers the provision of training by Pakistan to Iraqi Air Defence Force personnel in all spheres of modern air force concepts, particularly relating to air defence and aircrew. AFD-Dave Allport

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## fatman17

*PAC to supply Iraq with Super Mushshak basic trainers*

Author:*Farhan Bokhari*, Islamabad

Last posted:2014-02-12

Images:2 images

The Pakistan Air Force (PAF)-run Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) at Kamra, just north of Islamabad, signed an agreement with the Iraqi Air Force (IQAF) on 10 February to supply an unspecified number of its Super Mushshak basic trainer aircraft to Iraq: the first ever aircraft deal between the two countries.

The Pakistan Aeronautical Complex has signed an agreement to supply what is believed to be 20 Super Mushshak basic trainers to the IQAF. (PAC)

The agreement was signed by IQAF Commander General Anwer Hamad Ameen Ahmad Ahmed and Air Marshal Suhail Gul Khan, the PAC chairman, at the Islamabad residence of Pakistani Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif, who witnessed the signing.

Although the PAF did not publicly reveal the number of aircraft ordered or their price under the agreement, a senior defence ministry official stated that Pakistan will sell 20 Super Mushshak aircraft to the IQAF. The official added that a separate agreement was signed between the PAF and the IQAF under which the PAF will train Iraq's air force personnel, including those with air defence duties.

"This is a major success for our aircraft industry. After Saudi Arabia, this is the second important agreement for the Mushshak aircraft," said the official, referring to a previous deal for the sale of 20 Super Mushshaks to Saudi Arabia.

Both Pakistani and Western officials in Islamabad suggested the Super Mushshak deal could lay the basis for a possible future agreement to supply Iraq with the JF-17 Thunder fighter, which is co-produced by Pakistan and China. Pakistan has marketed the JF-17 as a relatively economical alternative to Western aircraft.

The PAC agreement to supply Super Mushshak trainers to the IQAF was signed by IQAF Commander General Anwer Hamad Ameen Ahmad Ahmed (front left) and Air Marshal Suhail Gul Khan, the PAC chairman (front right), at the Islamabad residence of Pakistani Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif (centre background), who witnessed the signing. (PAF)

it was recently reported that Pakistan was also in discussions with Saudi Arabia regarding the supply of an unspecified number of JF-17s and Al-Khalid main battle tanks.

"In the long run Pakistan will surely look for opportunities to export the JF-17 to Iraq if there was such an opportunity in future," one Western official in Islamabad told IHS Jane's . "That could be the natural next step to the agreement [for the Super Mushshak] with Iraq."

The PAF plans to induct between 150 and 250 JF-17s, with final deliveries expected by 2018-20. Any future agreement to supply Iraq - or any export customer - with JF-17s could only involve immediate deliveries in this timeframe if the PAF opted to delay some of its own orders.

JDW


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## ejaz007

*PAF ready to meet challenges: air chief*

SARGODHA: Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt has said his force has already undertaken a major appraisal of its assets, developmental plans and operational doctrine to meet challenges in facing an adversary.

“Notwithstanding the importance of quality military hardware; the competence to squarely face an adversary comes through passionate and aggressive frame of mind along with realistic and persistent training,” the Air Chief told graduation ceremony of 43rd Combat Commanders’ Course held at the Pakistan Air Force Base Mushaf on Monday.

“Nature of aerial warfare continues to rise in complexity under a time compressed scenario. In our peculiar environment, any future conflict would entail airpower employment with all its speed, might, lethality, modern capabilities and concepts,” the air chief said as he advised the graduating officers to continue to strive for excellence in their upcoming assignments as core professionals. 

“Additionally, you must also learn more about the nature of threats and continue to orchestrate tactics for maintaining PAF’s traditional professional dominance over its adversaries,” he said. The chief guest awarded certificates and trophies to the graduating officers who underwent a strenuous and professionally demanding course. The Chief of the Air Staff Trophy for the best Combat Commander was awarded to Squadron Leader Asad Khan while Air Officer Commanding Air Defence Command Trophy for best Combat Controller was awarded to Squadron Leader Raffat Masood. The ceremony was attended by principal staff officers and field commanders of Pakistan Air Force.

PAF ready to meet challenges: air chief

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## nomi007

*Pakistan Air Force Purchases 13 F-16 Fighter Jets From Jordan*
Pakistan Air Force has acquired 13 F-16A/B block 15 aircraft Fighter jets from Royal Jordanian Air Force (RJAF). Pakistan will take the delivery of 12 F-16A and 1 F-16B fighter jets next month.

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## Gryphon

PRESS RELEASE
February 25, 2014, 12:35 p.m. ET
*Exelis to supply Pakistan with more components for electronic warfare systems*

CLIFTON, N.J.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--February 25, 2014--

Exelis (NYSE: XLS) has received $9 million from the U.S. Air Force to supply spare components for electronic warfare (EW) technology provided to Pakistan under an existing contract.

The original contract, awarded in December 2011, granted Exelis $53 million to supply Pakistan with ALQ-211 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suite (AIDEWS) systems to protect the country's F-16 fighter aircraft from radio frequency threats. The additional funds provide for the manufacture and delivery of a range of spare AIDEWS components, following successful development and integration flight-testing phases.

"The AIDEWS pod offers dependable protection against a range of dynamic electronic threats," said Joe Rambala, vice president and general manager of the Exelis integrated electronic warfare systems business area. "Working with U.S. and allied customers to stay ahead of emerging threats has helped make Exelis a global electronic warfare leader, and we remain committed to advancing this critical mission."

The AIDEWS components will be produced at the Exelis Electronic Systems (ES) facility in Clifton, N.J., with deliveries expected to be complete in 2016. ES is the lead division for the company's electronic warfare strategic growth platform and provides advanced, integrated EW solutions to protect and enable customers to perform their critical missions.

About Exelis

Exelis is a diversified, top-tier global aerospace, defense, information and services company that leverages a 50-year legacy of deep customer knowledge and technical expertise to deliver affordable, mission-critical solutions for global customers. We are a leader in timing and navigation, sensors, air traffic solutions, image processing and distribution, communications and information systems, logistics and technical services; and we are focused on strategic growth in the areas of critical networks, ISR and analytics, electronic warfare and composite aerostructures. Headquartered in McLean, Va., Exelis employs about 19,000 people and generated 2012 sales of $5.5 billion. For more information, visit our website at Exelis - The Power of Ingenuity or connect with us on Facebook, Twitter and YouTube.


CONTACT: Exelis
Courtney Reynolds, 973-284-5382

courtney.reynolds@exelisinc.com


SOURCE: Exelis
Copyright Business Wire 2014

Exelis to supply Pakistan with more components for electronic warfare systems - WSJ.com

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## fatman17

Air Platforms
*Pakistan looking to buy Jordanian F-16s*

*Farhan Bokhari, Islamabad* - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

24 February 2014

The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is "close to concluding a deal" for the purchase of up to 13 Lockheed Martin F-16 fighter aircraft currently flown by the Royal Jordanian Air Force, a senior Pakistani government official has told _IHS Jane's_ .

Pakistan is looking to buy up to 13 Lockheed Martin F-16 fighter aircraft currently flown by the Royal Jordanian Air Force. (TAI)

The official said the PAF has also made inquiries with at least two other countries to buy F-16s although he declined to name them.

PAF officials have previously told _IHS Jane's_ they were keen to increase the size of Pakistan's F-16 fleet, which currently comprises 18 F-16C/D Block 50/52 versions and between 45 and 50 F-16A/B models purchased in the 1980s.

*Pakistan looking to buy Jordanian F-16s*
Author:*Farhan Bokhari*, Islamabad
Section:

Last posted:2014-02-25

Images:1 image

The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is "close to concluding a deal" for the purchase of up to 13 Lockheed Martin F-16 fighter aircraft currently flown by the Royal Jordanian Air Force, a senior Pakistani government official has stated.

Pakistan is looking to buy up to 13 Lockheed Martin F-16 fighter aircraft currently flown by the Royal Jordanian Air Force. (TAI)

The official said the PAF has also made inquiries with at least two other countries to buy F-16s although he declined to name them.

PAF officials have previously stated they were keen to increase the size of Pakistan's F-16 fleet, which currently comprises 18 F-16C/D Block 50/52 versions and between 45 and 50 F-16A/B models purchased in the 1980s.

"The discussions with Jordan are at an advanced stage. We are looking at 12 F-16As and one F-16B Block 15 version," said the Pakistani official. "I hope a deal will come together soon and the aircraft could land in Pakistan in the next few months," he added.

A senior Western diplomat in Islamabad said Jordan may have agreed to sell the aircraft after being persuaded by the United States and possibly Saudi Arabia.

"Recently there has been speculation that the US and Saudi Arabia - for different reasons - are keen to boost Pakistan's potential given the coming events," he said in reference to increasing signs that the PAF could be deployed against Taliban targets in the semi-autonomous tribal areas along the Afghan border ahead of a Pakistan Army ground offensive. The United States has urged Pakistan's civil and military authorities to undertake this mission for years.

At the same time, recently reported that Saudi Arabia is seeking troops from Pakistan to boost its defences, especially along its southern border with Yemen. However, Riyadh's request has prompted speculation that Pakistan is being drawn into supporting Saudi Arabia in the event of the Syrian civil war spilling over into the kingdom.

COMMENT
The PAF's long-term fast jet procurements involve the purchase of up to 250 JF-17 Thunder fighter aircraft produced jointly by China's Chengdu Aerospace Corporation and the PAF-run Pakistan Aeronautical Complex at Kamra, north of Islamabad.

However, Pakistani defence officials are keen to continue operating the F-16s as the backbone of the PAF, while also retaining the possibility of purchasing more US fighter aircraft if the country can afford them.


JDW

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## Donatello

fatman17 said:


> Air Platforms
> *Pakistan looking to buy Jordanian F-16s*
> 
> *Farhan Bokhari, Islamabad* - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
> 
> 24 February 2014
> 
> The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is "close to concluding a deal" for the purchase of up to 13 Lockheed Martin F-16 fighter aircraft currently flown by the Royal Jordanian Air Force, a senior Pakistani government official has told _IHS Jane's_ .
> 
> Pakistan is looking to buy up to 13 Lockheed Martin F-16 fighter aircraft currently flown by the Royal Jordanian Air Force. (TAI)
> 
> The official said the PAF has also made inquiries with at least two other countries to buy F-16s although he declined to name them.
> 
> PAF officials have previously told _IHS Jane's_ they were keen to increase the size of Pakistan's F-16 fleet, which currently comprises 18 F-16C/D Block 50/52 versions and between 45 and 50 F-16A/B models purchased in the 1980s.
> 
> *Pakistan looking to buy Jordanian F-16s*
> Author:*Farhan Bokhari*, Islamabad
> Section:
> 
> Last posted:2014-02-25
> 
> Images:1 image
> 
> The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is "close to concluding a deal" for the purchase of up to 13 Lockheed Martin F-16 fighter aircraft currently flown by the Royal Jordanian Air Force, a senior Pakistani government official has stated.
> 
> Pakistan is looking to buy up to 13 Lockheed Martin F-16 fighter aircraft currently flown by the Royal Jordanian Air Force. (TAI)
> 
> The official said the PAF has also made inquiries with at least two other countries to buy F-16s although he declined to name them.
> 
> PAF officials have previously stated they were keen to increase the size of Pakistan's F-16 fleet, which currently comprises 18 F-16C/D Block 50/52 versions and between 45 and 50 F-16A/B models purchased in the 1980s.
> 
> "The discussions with Jordan are at an advanced stage. We are looking at 12 F-16As and one F-16B Block 15 version," said the Pakistani official. "I hope a deal will come together soon and the aircraft could land in Pakistan in the next few months," he added.
> 
> A senior Western diplomat in Islamabad said Jordan may have agreed to sell the aircraft after being persuaded by the United States and possibly Saudi Arabia.
> 
> "Recently there has been speculation that the US and Saudi Arabia - for different reasons - are keen to boost Pakistan's potential given the coming events," he said in reference to increasing signs that the PAF could be deployed against Taliban targets in the semi-autonomous tribal areas along the Afghan border ahead of a Pakistan Army ground offensive. The United States has urged Pakistan's civil and military authorities to undertake this mission for years.
> 
> At the same time, recently reported that Saudi Arabia is seeking troops from Pakistan to boost its defences, especially along its southern border with Yemen. However, Riyadh's request has prompted speculation that Pakistan is being drawn into supporting Saudi Arabia in the event of the Syrian civil war spilling over into the kingdom.
> 
> COMMENT
> The PAF's long-term fast jet procurements involve the purchase of up to 250 JF-17 Thunder fighter aircraft produced jointly by China's Chengdu Aerospace Corporation and the PAF-run Pakistan Aeronautical Complex at Kamra, north of Islamabad.
> 
> However, Pakistani defence officials are keen to continue operating the F-16s as the backbone of the PAF, while also retaining the possibility of purchasing more US fighter aircraft if the country can afford them.
> 
> 
> JDW



Some positive news!!

If the law and order situation gets under control, economy is going to expand like crazy.

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## fatman17

Donatello said:


> Some positive news!!
> 
> If the law and order situation gets under control, economy is going to expand like crazy.


 
if only the power sector issues are rectified, the economy will grow between 6-8% p.a. according to economists.


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## Informant

ZamsaHassan said:


> Yes I saw too .I think it will be rebuild for the PAF museum but its part were missing any how
> 
> Look at this State of the art AC-130 Gunship wish to be part of PAF
> View attachment 18929



This plane is vulnerable to Anti Air Fire from the ground and lord knows if a portable SAM ends up with the enemy. Then that would be the end of AC-130. These planes go out at night under the cover of darkness and even then its not that safe from shoulder launched SAM. Plus you need to yield them in effective numbers, 1 or 2 arent enough infact a waste.


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## Zarvan



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## fatman17

*ZDK-03 Karakoram Eagle AEW&C Flying Above Manora Island, Karachi *




This is first clear image the Sino-Pak ZDK-03 Airborne Early Warning and Control System (AEW&C) Karakoram Eagle flying Flying Above Manora Island, Karachi in Pakistan. ZDK-03 AEW&C Karakoram Eagle provides 360º radar coverage with Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) Radar.

Read more: ZDK-03 Karakoram Eagle AEW&C Flying Above Manora Island, Karachi | Pakistan Military Review

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## fatman17

*C-130 Hercules lands at Multan Airport with active auto safety system:*

PAF Spokesman 
ISLAMABAD, Mar 7 (APP): A C-130 Hercules of Pakistan Air Force (PAF) landed at Multan Airport on Friday after activation of auto safety system by its captain, resulting in deflation of aircraft tyre. According to PAF Spokesman Air Commodore Tariq Mahmood, the captain of the plane very professionally executed, controlled and safely landed the plane at the airport as the auto safety system activated. The technicians of Pakistan Air Force immediately recovered the aircraft for subsequent resumption of normal operations at the airport. The C-130 was on a normal routine training mission, the spokesman added. The landing is hallmark of professional approach of Pakistan Air Force.


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## fatman17

*Pakistan Seeks to Upgrade C-130 Hercules Fleet*
March 12th, 2014 


US CONGRESS was notified yesterday, March 11, by the Defense Security Co-operation Agency (DSCA) of a possible Foreign Military Sale [...]


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## fatman17

*Congress Asked to Approve $100 Million Military Package for Pakistan*
By Rich Smith

March 11, 2014 |

The U.S. Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress Tuesday of plans to sell the government of Pakistan a C-130 Fleet Upgrade Program package, plus associated equipment, parts, training, and logistical support valued at $100 million in total.

Specifically, the package includes upgrades to the avionics, engine management software and mechanical parts, cargo delivery system, and outer wing sets on six Pakistani C-130 transport planes. Also included in the sale will be spare parts, necessary support equipment, publications and technical documentation, and personnel training and training equipment, plus logistics support. The primary contractor on this sale has not yet been chosen, but the C-130s were originally built by *Lockheed Martin* (NYSE: LMT ) . A bidding process will be opened to choose the primary contractor.

Pakistan's air force includes a total of five C-130B and eleven C-130E aircraft. No mention of upgrades to the remaining 10 aircraft was made in the announcement, nor did DSCA clarify which specific models of C-130 would be getting the upgrades.

Explaining the sale to Congress, DSCA noted that Pakistan's planes are "facing airworthiness and obsolescence issues, and will require upgrades and repairs for continued operation and effectiveness. The proposed modernization of the C-130 fleet should ensure continued viability for an additional 10-15 years." DSCA added that this modernization is desirable to "improve the security of a Major Non-NATO ally which has been, and continues to be, an important force for regional stability and U.S. national security goals in the region."

According to DSCA, "there will be no adverse impact on U.S. defense readiness as a result of this proposed sale." Nor will the sale "alter the basic military balance in the region."

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## fatman17

*Secretive Pakistani Government Hawker 4000s Now Sold Off*
March 16th, 2014 


BOTH OF the secretive Raytheon (Hawker Beechcraft) Hawker 4000 executive jets previously owned by the Pakistan Government have now been [...]


----------



## khanboy007

fatman17 said:


> *Secretive Pakistani Government Hawker 4000s Now Sold Off*
> March 16th, 2014
> 
> 
> BOTH OF the secretive Raytheon (Hawker Beechcraft) Hawker 4000 executive jets previously owned by the Pakistan Government have now been [...]



they got/ordered some new ones ??

or just sold it for the bucks


----------



## Umair Nawaz

Will the 23rd March 2014 Airshow is gonna held or not?


----------



## Inception-06

khanboy007 said:


> they got/ordered some new ones ??
> 
> or just sold it for the bucks



sold it !


----------



## nomi007



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## Inception-06

nomi007 said:


>


Can you translate this in english pkz ?


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## fatman17

*Pakistan Renames PAF Base Mianwali as M M Alam*
March 21st, 2014 


PAKISTAN’S PRIME Minister, Muhammad Nawaz Sharif, unveiled a monument yesterday, March 20, to mark the official renaming of Pakistan Air [...]

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## fatman17

*South, West, and Central Asia
South, West, and Central Asia defence trade 2012-13 (IHS)*

Exports to South, West, and Central Asia rose from USD7.8 billion in 2012 up to USD8.8 billion in 2013, driven by a USD1.8 billion increase in India's imports, primarily from the United States. The regional market is forecast to reach at least USD11.5 billion by 2015, based on orders booked to date.

Deliveries to Pakistan edged down from USD1.5 billion to USD1.3 billion, despite rising CAC JF-17 fighter imports from China. These made up about a quarter of all Pakistani imports over 2013 and will provide an even larger share in 2014 and 2015 as Pakistan struggles to fund additional programmes.

Afghanistan's imports plunged from USD1.5 billion down to USD0.5 billion as deliveries ended for BAE Systems M1152 AM General High-Mobility MultiPurpose Wheeled Vehicles (HMMWV), Textron Cadillac Gage M1117 (Guardian) armoured security vehicles (ASV), and Mil Mi-17 helicopters.


JDW


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## fatman17

*Message by Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt on Pakistan Day *

Press Release 
March 23, 2014





On the auspicious day of 23rd March, I extend my heartiest greetings to all countrymen and women. It was on this epoch-making day that the Muslims of the sub-continent made a solemn pledge, which ultimately led to creation of Pakistan.
Since our independence, we have faced many difficult times, but surmounted all difficulties by rendering sincere sacrifices, as a resolute nation, to protect our homeland. History of all great nations reveals that an enemy has never been able 
to sustain in front of the resoluteness of a nation. And we are blessed to be one such nation, whose determination has remained unshakable.
In our journey through the decades, we have been able to produce, in many fields, men of value. Our scientists, educationists, sportsmen, philanthropists etc have made their mark in the world. Indeed, we have the potential to rise despite numerous challenges. Let the world recognise us as hard-working, industrious and tolerant people. All we need to do is carry out introspection, with a view to learn from our mistakes and ensure we do not repeat the same both at the individual as well as at collective level. At this crucial time, it becomes all the more pertinent to recall the words of the Holy Quran, which were also depicted in the verse of the famous poet of the East, Allama Muhammad Iqbal,
"It is a fact that Allah does not change the condition of a people unless they bring about change in their own selves".
So, the need of the hour is that we fully enterprise on and strengthen our skills and abilities to emerge as a strong united entity.
My Dear Countrymen! Our ancestors rendered great sacrifices to get freedom. However, there is a need that we continuously groom and nurture our youth in a manner that they fully realise the importance of freedom and true spirit of Pakistan Resolution. They must appreciate that the struggle that their forefathers started, did not end on 14 August, 1947, but the baton has to be carried on with added responsibility to preserve this hard-earned freedom. It thus becomes 
our responsibility that our rising generations fully comprehend the vision of 
our forefathers for an independent Pakistan - the one based on equality, peace and tolerance. It is now time to put in our bit and move ahead with full fervour to attain our position as one of the most respected nations in the world. Pakistan was made to survive and will Insha Allah last till the world continues to exist. Aameen!


----------



## fatman17

*Change of guard ceremony at Mazar-e-Iqbal on Pakistan Day *

March 23, 2014 - Updated 755 PKT 
From Web Edition






*LAHORE: A smartly turned out contingent of Pakistan Air Force (PAF) assumed guard duties at the Mazar-e-Iqbal on Pakistan Day being celebrated on Sunday here, Geo News reported.*
The ceremonial Guard mounting was followed by floral wreath laying and offering of ‘Fateha’ at the mazar of Allama Iqbal by the chief guest on this occasion Air Vice Marshall Mujahid Anwar.


----------



## Munir

fatman17 said:


> *Change of guard ceremony at Mazar-e-Iqbal on Pakistan Day *
> 
> March 23, 2014 - Updated 755 PKT
> From Web Edition
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *LAHORE: A smartly turned out contingent of Pakistan Air Force (PAF) assumed guard duties at the Mazar-e-Iqbal on Pakistan Day being celebrated on Sunday here, Geo News reported.*
> The ceremonial Guard mounting was followed by floral wreath laying and offering of ‘Fateha’ at the mazar of Allama Iqbal by the chief guest on this occasion Air Vice Marshall Mujahid Anwar.



Last year I had the honor of going inside the Mazar-e-Iqbal. I actually read the letter on it. Besides sitting in JF17/F16 of PAF this was one of the most important days for me in my life...

I think it made me extremely proud to be Pakistani when Mianwali was changed into MM Alam. MM Alam is beyond anything a pilot can imagine. We did not provide him the titles when he was between us but it does make me happy that the nation will keep his name alive. The man showed that he was gifted with superb talents and with dignity we all can learn from. May his soul rest in peace. At least this government is not changing everything into Benazir... What did Benazir give to Pakistani and the Pakistani?

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## Dazzler

Munir said:


> Last year I had the honor of going inside the Mazar-e-Iqbal. I actually read the letter on it. Besides sitting in JF17/F16 of PAF this was one of the most important days for me in my life...
> What did Benazir give to Pakistani and the Pakistani?



Zardari

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## fatman17

*PAF Academy Risalpur holds graduation ceremony*

Islamabad
March 22, 2014 BY Agencies




The graduation ceremony of 112 Non-GD and 36 BLPC courses was held at Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Academy Risalpur. Deputy Chief of the Air Staff (Administration) Air Marshal Asim Suleiman was the chief guest on the occasion.
The graduating cadets belonging to engineering, logistics, information technology, education, accounts, admin & special duties and medical branches of the PAF were awarded with branch insignias.
Aviation Cadet Mirza Ali Raza was awarded the trophy for overall best performance in 112 Non-GD course while Aviation Cadet Sergeant Shahzad Nisar was awarded trophy for overall best performance in 36 BLPC course.
While addressing the graduating cadets, the Chief Guest said,” In PAF essence of our existence revolves around flying operations. We all strive to attain its highest state of readiness. In this complex equation, you will be required to play an important role as future administrator, engineer, information technology expert, doctor, logistician or an educator”.
The Chief Guest further said,” You are the successors to those who had the privilege and honour of making PAF a great service through their sacrifices and hard work. All of you should strive to achieve the same feat of excellence, and I urge you to fully contribute for making PAF the most efficient force. You should now prepare yourself to shoulder the responsibilities in your domains”.
Earlier, on his arrival at the academy, Air Marshal Asim Suleiman was received by Air Vice Marshal Rashid Kamal, the air officer commanding PAF Academy Risalpur.


----------



## CJ Arain

fatman17 said:


> News Asia-Pacific:
> 
> 1. Thailand to buy 12 JAS-39C/D Gripens and 2 Saab Eri-eye AEW systems for US 1.08 Billion. Gripens will replace the ageing F-5E/Fs of the RTAF. the Lockheed-Martin F-16 and the Sukhoi SU-30 were also short-listed before settling on the Gripen.
> 
> 2. More details emerge on secretive chinese WZ-10 attack helicopter:
> powered by two 1,531 shp P&WC PT6C-67C turbo shaft engines with Full Authority Digital Engine Control(FADEC). although some sources suggest that up to eight trials WZ-10s may now have been built, only three flying prototypes have been confirmed. (Z10-01, 02 and 03). maiden flights on April 23, 2003. in 2001 China asked Denal to purchase one helicopter (Rooivalk) suggesting it was to be used for reverse engineering and therefore the sales was blocked.weapons planned for the WZ-10 appear to be largely indigeneous like the new HJ-10 ATGM and older TY-90 SRAAMs.
> 
> 3.India finalises plans for 40 more SU-30MKIs:
> clearence has been given for the US $ 1.6 Billion deal to purchase 40 SU-30MKIs from Russia for the IAF. the additional 40 SU-30MKIs will give the IAF a fleet of 230 SU-30MKIs. the indian govt has asked HAL to complete the delivery of these aircraft by 2013-14 instead of the originally planned 2016-17
> 
> 4. HAL to upgrade IN Sea-Kings:
> clearence has been given to upgrade 18 of the IN Seaking 42/42B ASW helicopters under a $ 200 mill programme. IN originally purchased 43 Seakings but were grounded due to sanctions imposed after the 1998 nuclear tests.
> 
> 5. Pakistan takes over Bell 412EPs:
> 
> already reported in land forces section.


Please give more details on Bell 412EPs


----------



## Bratva

Anyone who can identify which aircraft it is???





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=560768647354033


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## Thorough Pro

Looks like Typhone



mafiya said:


> Anyone who can identify which aircraft it is???
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=560768647354033


----------



## fatman17

*
PAKISTAN

PAKISTAN AIR FORCE
Type Active Ordered*

Combat aircraft
F-7 142
F-16A/C 36
JF-17 30 70+50*
Mirage IIIEP/OF/RP 69
Mirage 5EF/F/PA 84

Special mission
Falcon 20 (EW) 2
King Air 350 (Recce) 2
Saab 2000 (AEW) 4
Y-8/ZDK-03 (AEW) 1 3

Tanker
Il-78 4
Transport
C-130B/E/L-100 16
CN235 3
Saab 2000 1
Y-12 2

Combat helicopter
Bell 205 5
Bell 412 1
Mi-14 1
Mi-171 6
SA330 1
SE3160 1

Training aircraft/helicopters
F-16B/D 27
FT-5 25
FT-6 9
FT-7 5
K-8 39
Mirage IIIBE/D/DP 18
Mirage 5DPA 2
SA316 8
T-37 18*

PAKISTAN ARMY
Type Active Ordered*

Transport
Citation Bravo 1
King Air 350 2
Turbo Commander 2
Y-12 4

Combat helicopter
AH-1F 35
AS550 10 2
Bell 206 19
Bell 412 30 2+30*
Mi-17/172 47
SA315 12
SA316 14
SA330 31*

PAKISTAN NAVY
Type Active Ordered*

Special mission
BAe 125 (Recce) 1
F27 (MPA) 7
P-3C (MPA) 6

Combat helicopter
SA316 5
Sea King 45 6
Z-9 6*

Flight Global 2014 estimates.*

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## Inception-06

fatman17 said:


> *PAKISTAN
> 
> PAKISTAN AIR FORCE
> Type Active Ordered*
> 
> Combat aircraft
> F-7 142
> F-16A/C 36
> JF-17 30 70+50*
> Mirage IIIEP/OF/RP 69
> Mirage 5EF/F/PA 84
> 
> Special mission
> Falcon 20 (EW) 2
> King Air 350 (Recce) 2
> Saab 2000 (AEW) 4
> Y-8/ZDK-03 (AEW) 1 3
> 
> Tanker
> Il-78 4
> Transport
> C-130B/E/L-100 16
> CN235 3
> Saab 2000 1
> Y-12 2
> 
> Combat helicopter
> Bell 205 5
> Bell 412 1
> Mi-14 1
> Mi-171 6
> SA330 1
> SE3160 1
> 
> Training aircraft/helicopters
> F-16B/D 27
> FT-5 25
> FT-6 9
> FT-7 5
> K-8 39
> Mirage IIIBE/D/DP 18
> Mirage 5DPA 2
> SA316 8
> T-37 18
> *PAKISTAN ARMY
> Type Active Ordered*
> 
> Transport
> Citation Bravo 1
> King Air 350 2
> Turbo Commander 2
> Y-12 4
> 
> Combat helicopter
> AH-1F 35
> AS550 10 2
> Bell 206 19
> Bell 412 30 2+30*
> Mi-17/172 47
> SA315 12
> SA316 14
> SA330 31
> *PAKISTAN NAVY
> Type Active Ordered*
> 
> Special mission
> BAe 125 (Recce) 1
> F27 (MPA) 7
> P-3C (MPA) 6
> 
> Combat helicopter
> SA316 5
> Sea King 45 6
> Z-9 6
> *Flight Global 2014 estimates.*



many wronge numbers, for example we have from the Sea King only 6 -8 Helicopters or less and not 45 !


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## Luftwaffe

Ulla said:


> many wronge numbers, for example we have from the Sea King only 6 -8 Helicopters or less and not 45 !


 
You are wrong the sea king 45 is variant not numbers in PN Aviation look closely.

Sea King Mk.45
Anti-submarine and anti-ship warfare version of the Sea King HAS.1 for the Pakistan Navy. Provision for carrying Exocet anti-ship missile; 6 built.

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## fatman17

Ulla said:


> many wronge numbers, for example we have from the Sea King only 6 -8 Helicopters or less and not 45 !


 
sea king mk45 is the type

but in general u r right flight global estimates are always at odds with other web-sites.

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## Luftwaffe

Only 6 Sea Kings MK45 in service with PN confirmed.


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## fatman17



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## fatman17

*Pakistani Air Force Wary of Terrorist Threat to Airbases*
*
Apr. 1, 2014 - 04:40PM | By USMAN ANSARI | *







*The Pakistan Air Force Base Minhas was attacked by militants in 2012. (Agence France-Presse)*

*ISLAMABAD* — Media reports that Pakistani Taliban splinter group Ahrarul Hind is planning attacks on Pakistani airbases in retaliation for punishing airstrikes carried out in February have raised questions about the adequacy of security at Air Force facilities.

There has not been a discernible reaction from the Ahrarul Hind thus far, and analysts say the ferocity of the airstrikes that killed a number of important members has left it somewhat stunned. Commentators and public opinion had demanded action against terrorists for some time, however, and the military, long the focus of terrorist attacks, has been itching to deliver it.

But the threat of attacks on Air Force facilities is real.

There have been a number of devastating attacks on airbases in recent years; one the highest profile attacks was on PNS Mehran in Karachi in 2011, resulting in a number of deaths and the loss of two P-3C Orion maritime patrol aircraft. A 2012 attack on PAF Base Minhas at Kamra destroyed one Erieye airborne early warning and control aircraft and damaged another.(?)

Civil and military-related infrastructure continues to remain a target. A weekend attack by terrorists on the civil Pasni radar post in Balochistan left one dead and equipment damaged. The attackers escaped.

However, since the last major attack in 2012, perimeter security has been tightened at military airbases.

Commercial satellite imagery has shown other improvements inside the bases, and an undetermined (though probably small, according to analysts) number of Eland 60 armored cars have been procured from South Africa for airfield defense.

The service is prepared to defend its assets, said Air Force spokesman Air Commodore Tariq Mahmood.
“All security measures at our installations, our airbases and other facilities are in place, and it’s a layered defense. We are guarding them according to our [standard operating procedures]. The threat is always there, we can’t be oblivious to the situation in the country, but we’re protecting our installations and taking all measures,” he said.

Mahmood was not able to comment on the purchase of Eland 60s, however.

Analysts are also reasonably confident the Air Force’s security should be able to handle any threat.

“Current security is good,” said Brian Cloughley, former Australian defense attache to Islamabad. “All that is needed is coordination and no relaxation of present measures.”

Protection is difficult at some airbases because many have been surrounded by urban sprawl, but Cloughley said the most obvious solution, relocation, is probably out of the question.

There is, however, still room for improvement in airbase security.

Analyst and former Air Commodore Kaiser Tufail says the Air Force could learn from examples of civil airbase security.

“A short answer is to defend them the way [the Airport Security Force] has done,” he said.

“None of the 20-odd [Civil Aviation Authority] airports have been intruded in for the last three decades. The ASF and CAA have quite simply treated perimeter security with the utmost importance, and the PAF could learn a thing or two from them,” he added.

Additional equipment is needed, Tufail says, and there is a long list of items to be improved or acquired to bring security at Air Force airbases up to the level of the civil airports.

“Armored cars for patrols, manned watch towers, motion sensors, spotlights, fencing topped with razor wire, and of course, trained guards — these are some of the essential measures that ought to be in place at PAF bases,” he said.

“The civil airports have had these measures in place for decades. Unfortunately, these were lacking at PAF bases in the past, and have been implemented only recently. It was simply a case of oversight of a very important issue, and a heavy price was paid for the neglect,” he added.

Cloughley highlights a more military-specific issue.

“They could ask for surveillance balloons,” he said. There are “plenty of them left over by US and British forces in Afghanistan. But I imagine they’re too high-tech to be given to Pakistan. They are undoubtedly the best means of detecting approaches by enemy.”

However, such systems are complicated.

“Balloons are not a total solution, of course. They work in conjunction with ground radars and other electronic detection devices, and, of course, physical patrolling. It can be done most effectively, given good organization, but there’s a great deal of expense in hardware and manpower,” he said. ■

*Email: uansari@defensenews.com.*


----------



## nomi007

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 22945


*1987..... sargodha airbase 
a memorable picture of legends of Afghan war*
these legendary pilots down these chicks

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## Windjammer



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## Donatello

nomi007 said:


> *1987..... sargodha airbase
> a memorable picture of legends of Afghan war*
> these legendary pilots down these chicks
> View attachment 23255



1987......F-16s....like spaceships in the sub-continent. *sigh*


----------



## truthseeker2010

fatman17 said:


> *Pakistani Air Force Wary of Terrorist Threat to Airbases*
> *Apr. 1, 2014 - 04:40PM | By USMAN ANSARI | *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *The Pakistan Air Force Base Minhas was attacked by militants in 2012. (Agence France-Presse)*
> 
> *ISLAMABAD* — Media reports that Pakistani Taliban splinter group Ahrarul Hind is planning attacks on Pakistani airbases in retaliation for punishing airstrikes carried out in February have raised questions about the adequacy of security at Air Force facilities.
> 
> There has not been a discernible reaction from the Ahrarul Hind thus far, and analysts say the ferocity of the airstrikes that killed a number of important members has left it somewhat stunned. Commentators and public opinion had demanded action against terrorists for some time, however, and the military, long the focus of terrorist attacks, has been itching to deliver it.
> 
> But the threat of attacks on Air Force facilities is real.
> 
> There have been a number of devastating attacks on airbases in recent years; one the highest profile attacks was on PNS Mehran in Karachi in 2011, resulting in a number of deaths and the loss of two P-3C Orion maritime patrol aircraft. A 2012 attack on PAF Base Minhas at Kamra destroyed one Erieye airborne early warning and control aircraft and damaged another.(?)
> 
> Civil and military-related infrastructure continues to remain a target. A weekend attack by terrorists on the civil Pasni radar post in Balochistan left one dead and equipment damaged. The attackers escaped.
> 
> However, since the last major attack in 2012, perimeter security has been tightened at military airbases.
> 
> Commercial satellite imagery has shown other improvements inside the bases, and an undetermined (though probably small, according to analysts) number of Eland 60 armored cars have been procured from South Africa for airfield defense.
> 
> The service is prepared to defend its assets, said Air Force spokesman Air Commodore Tariq Mahmood.
> “All security measures at our installations, our airbases and other facilities are in place, and it’s a layered defense. We are guarding them according to our [standard operating procedures]. The threat is always there, we can’t be oblivious to the situation in the country, but we’re protecting our installations and taking all measures,” he said.
> 
> Mahmood was not able to comment on the purchase of Eland 60s, however.
> 
> Analysts are also reasonably confident the Air Force’s security should be able to handle any threat.
> 
> “Current security is good,” said Brian Cloughley, former Australian defense attache to Islamabad. “All that is needed is coordination and no relaxation of present measures.”
> 
> Protection is difficult at some airbases because many have been surrounded by urban sprawl, but Cloughley said the most obvious solution, relocation, is probably out of the question.
> 
> There is, however, still room for improvement in airbase security.
> 
> Analyst and former Air Commodore Kaiser Tufail says the Air Force could learn from examples of civil airbase security.
> 
> “A short answer is to defend them the way [the Airport Security Force] has done,” he said.
> 
> “None of the 20-odd [Civil Aviation Authority] airports have been intruded in for the last three decades. The ASF and CAA have quite simply treated perimeter security with the utmost importance, and the PAF could learn a thing or two from them,” he added.
> 
> Additional equipment is needed, Tufail says, and there is a long list of items to be improved or acquired to bring security at Air Force airbases up to the level of the civil airports.
> 
> “Armored cars for patrols, manned watch towers, motion sensors, spotlights, fencing topped with razor wire, and of course, trained guards — these are some of the essential measures that ought to be in place at PAF bases,” he said.
> 
> “The civil airports have had these measures in place for decades. Unfortunately, these were lacking at PAF bases in the past, and have been implemented only recently. It was simply a case of oversight of a very important issue, and a heavy price was paid for the neglect,” he added.
> 
> Cloughley highlights a more military-specific issue.
> 
> “They could ask for surveillance balloons,” he said. There are “plenty of them left over by US and British forces in Afghanistan. But I imagine they’re too high-tech to be given to Pakistan. They are undoubtedly the best means of detecting approaches by enemy.”
> 
> However, such systems are complicated.
> 
> “Balloons are not a total solution, of course. They work in conjunction with ground radars and other electronic detection devices, and, of course, physical patrolling. It can be done most effectively, given good organization, but there’s a great deal of expense in hardware and manpower,” he said. ■
> 
> *Email: uansari@defensenews.com.*



So basically security of our civil airports is way better than our military airbases...... interesting....


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## fatman17

truthseeker2010 said:


> So basically security of our civil airports is way better than our military airbases...... interesting....


 
CAA force is trained for airport perimeter security. they should either takeover the security of military bases or train the PAF/PA security personnel. and these guys are good.


----------



## Quwa

truthseeker2010 said:


> So basically security of our civil airports is way better than our military airbases...... interesting....


Yeah because prior to 9/11, the biggest threat PAF faced was from wild boars running into F-16s.

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## truthseeker2010

fatman17 said:


> CAA force is trained for airport perimeter security. they should either takeover the security of military bases or train the PAF/PA security personnel. and these guys are good.



Sir then what are they waiting for ASF should start a program in collaboration with PAF ASAP. ASF is around 9000 strong for 20 odd airports..... so PAF would need around 5000 personnel force size to guard its bases.


----------



## fatman17

truthseeker2010 said:


> Sir then what are they waiting for ASF should start a program in collaboration with PAF ASAP. ASF is around 9000 strong for 20 odd airports..... so PAF would need around 5000 personnel force size to guard its bases.


 
very good Q.......


----------



## fatman17

*Graduation ceremony of Pakistan Air Force officers *

Staff Report 
April 10, 2014






ISLAMABAD: The graduation ceremony of Air Defence Operational Training Course was held at the School of Air Defence, Sakesar, on Wednesday. Air Vice Marshal Ijaz Mehmood Malik, air officer commanding, Headquarters Air Defence Command, was the chief guest.
The chief guest awarded certificates and trophies to the winners. The trophy for overall best performance was awarded to Pilot Officer Naveed Ashraf. Pilot Officer Muhammad Kashif secured the best in Ground Controlled Interception (GCI) trophy.
“The profession of air defence demands outstanding and meticulous precision, leaving nothing to chance. While the PAF leadership remains aware of the changing dynamics of warfare, it has already undertaken a major appraisal of the assets, the developmental plans and operational doctrine to meet the challenges that lie ahead,” the chief guest told the graduating officers.
The School of Air Defence Operations is one of the premier institutions of Pakistan Air Force, where newly graduated and mid level air defence officers are being trained for the operational duties.


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## Blackpearl

fatman17 said:


> *Graduation ceremony of Pakistan Air Force officers*
> Pilot Officer Muhammad Kashif secured the best in Ground Controlled Interception (GCI) trophy.



Ground Control Interception is very old but in use technique, where ground based radar controller directs or vector the interceptor towards intruder. But now Pakistan has AEWS Platform, so PAF controllers should also be taught Airborne Controlled Interception, and a separate prize for best ACI. Guys what u think.


----------



## fatman17

Blackpearl said:


> Ground Control Interception is very old but in use technique, where ground based radar controller directs or vector the interceptor towards intruder. But now Pakistan has AEWS Platform, so PAF controllers should also be taught Airborne Controlled Interception, and a separate prize for best ACI. Guys what u think.


 
sounds like a logical next step / progression.


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## Bratva

I'm surprised. There used to be a chinese origin Pilot in PAF. Saleem B.Liang Sahab. Anyone know about him how he ended up in PAF?







@Oscar @Windjammer @Aeronaut @Muradk

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## DESERT FIGHTER

mafiya said:


> I'm surprised. There used to be a chinese origin Pilot in PAF. Saleem B.Liang Sahab. Anyone know about him how did he end up in PAF?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Oscar @Windjammer @Aeronaut @Muradk



A settler ? There are Pakistani Chinese families still living in Pakistan specially Islamabad-Rawalpindi .. Even uighurs ..

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## Armstrong

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> A settler ? There are Pakistani Chinese families still living in Pakistan specially Islamabad-Rawalpindi .. Even uighurs ..



And here in Lahore too !  

A couple of them studied alongside me too !  

Damn they spoke fluent Urdu - Imagine the look of disbelief on our faces when we heard them speak Urdu the first time !

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## DESERT FIGHTER

mafiya said:


> I'm surprised. There used to be a chinese origin Pilot in PAF. Saleem B.Liang Sahab. Anyone know about him how did he end up in PAF?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Oscar @Windjammer @Aeronaut @Muradk


Found him on FB.. This pic is from PTF 1980-81.. Risalpur..






That's sir Laing at Dubai airshow.. He served in 71 war at masror AB..

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## DESERT FIGHTER



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## Bratva

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Found him on FB.. This pic is from PTF 1980-81.. Risalpur..
> 
> View attachment 24849
> 
> 
> That's sir Laing at Dubai airshow.. He served in 71 war at masror AB..



Ok Did a little stalking and searching . He is being welcomed graciously because he belonged to 26 squadron "spiders" once.

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## Windjammer

* @Oscar @Pakistanisage @fatman17 @[URL='https://defence.pk/members/aeronaut.15719/']Aeronaut[/URL]*

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## Abu Zolfiqar

^^^^ 1999 would certainly be a good trial period to see how the Anza sams performed 



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Found him on FB.. This pic is from PTF 1980-81.. Risalpur..
> 
> View attachment 24849
> 
> 
> That's sir Laing at Dubai airshow.. He served in 71 war at masror AB..


 
this is very interesting! I had never heard about this gentleman



Armstrong said:


> And here in Lahore too !
> 
> A couple of them studied alongside me too !
> 
> Damn they spoke fluent Urdu - Imagine the look of disbelief on our faces when we heard them speak Urdu the first time !


 
I've met Han Chinese who spoke IMPECCABLE Urdu

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## Windjammer

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> ^^^^ 1999 would certainly be a good trial period to see how the Anza sams performed



Ahem ahem..... i forgot about this thread until an Indian member brought it up ...inadvertently off course.


Anza Draws First Blood In Kargil

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## Abu Zolfiqar

fatman17 said:


> *ISLAMABAD* — Media reports that Pakistani Taliban splinter group Ahrarul Hind is planning attacks on Pakistani airbases in retaliation for punishing airstrikes carried out in February have raised questions about the adequacy of security at Air Force facilities.
> 
> There has not been a discernible reaction from the Ahrarul Hind thus far, and analysts say the ferocity of the airstrikes that killed a number of important members has left it somewhat stunned


 
First of all - I agree 100% that there is ZERO room for such security breaches; there has to be accountability and there has to be hyper-extreme vigilance to protect our assets but most importantly our personnel.

With that said - these terrorist rodents if they are planning to attempt another such adventure then they better try hard and their generous supporters/trainers/handlers in the immediate region better hope for miracles because last I heard - PAF gave the terrorists one hell of a good pummelling


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## Rajput_Pakistani

Windjammer said:


> * @Oscar @Pakistanisage @fatman17 @Aeronaut*


@Windjammer 

I think there are some mistakes on this board.

2 IAF fighters were downed that day. One Mig21 and other Mig27. Mig21 was flown by Squadron Leader Ajay Ahuja who was KIA, while Mig27 was flown by Flight Lt. Nachi Keta who was taken PoW.

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## fatman17

blast from the past...




F-104A

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## monitor

@fatman17 Pakistan change its decision on J-10.fc-20 ? not seeing the sticky thread In pdf


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## fatman17

monitor said:


> @fatman17 Pakistan change its decision on J-10.fc-20 ? not seeing the sticky thread In pdf


 
its a closed case IMO.

PAF will concentrate on the JFT program and increase the number of F-16s in its inventory.

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## Munir

fatman17 said:


> its a closed case IMO.
> 
> PAF will concentrate on the JFT program and increase the number of F-16s in its inventory.



I think you said it all... We can hardly afford second hand F16 or new JF17... Getting a whole new plane like Fc20 asks 1-2 billion investment and 3-5 years run up time. With that many programs running already PAF will not go even deeper into troubles.

FC20 would be nice if we had no F16's. Now it is just an extra which we mostly can do with JF17 (which basically has the same systems but here and there altered).


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## Windjammer

*Blast from the past. *
_*PAF Recruitment Ads from the 70s.












*_

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## nomi007



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## hassan1



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## fatman17

hassan1 said:


>


 
great Job!


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## fatman17

*First Five ex-Jordanian F-16s Delivered to Pakistan AF*
April 28th, 2014 


AN INITIAL batch of five ex-Royal Jordanian Air Force (RJAF) F-16s, comprising four F-16As and one F-16B, were delivered to [...]

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## Black Eagle 90

fatman17 said:


> *First Five ex-Jordanian F-16s Delivered to Pakistan AF*
> April 28th, 2014
> 
> 
> AN INITIAL batch of five ex-Royal Jordanian Air Force (RJAF) F-16s, comprising four F-16As and one F-16B, were delivered to [...]


So 11 of them are remaining.


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## fatman17

Jane's Defence Weekly
Pakistan receives first batch of Jordanian F-16s
Author:*Farhan Bokhari*, Islamabad
Last posted:2014-05-01

The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) formally inducted the first five of 13 Lockheed Martin F-16 fighter aircraft it has bought from the Royal Jordanian Air Force in a 27 April ceremony at Mushaf airbase in Sargodha.

The PAF confirmed that the 13 F-16s to be eventually inducted comprise 12 F-16As and one F-16B. All were originally Block 15 models, but have undergone mid-life upgrades though no further information was disclosed on their weapon systems and/or avionics.

A PAF official stated that with the induction of the five Jordanian F-16s, the PAF now had 76 F-16s. These include 18 F-16C/D Block 52 versions; the remaining 58 are all of the A/ B variants.

In recent months the PAF has attacked suspected sites belonging to Taliban militants in the tribal region along the Afghan border. "The new F-16 fighters will be very useful to step up the attacks," the PAF official said.

Although Pakistan first bought F-16s in the 1980s, Islamabad was stung in the 1990s by US sanctions in response to its development of nuclear weapons that culminated in tests in 1998. Washington resumed the sale of military hardware to Pakistan after the 11 September 2001 terrorist attacks on the United States. This included new and used F-16s, which were provided in return for Islamabad's support against Al-Qaeda and Taliban militants in Afghanistan.

A senior Western defence official based in Islamabad said the PAF's continued push to receive more F-16s suggests that the JF-17 Thunder, which Pakistan developed with China, is still being refined. "Pakistan has made good progress on the JF-17, but it seems they haven't given up yet on the F-16," he said.

JDW


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## elitepilot09

fatman17 said:


> Jane's Defence Weekly
> Pakistan receives first batch of Jordanian F-16s
> Author:*Farhan Bokhari*, Islamabad
> Last posted:2014-05-01
> 
> The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) formally inducted the first five of 13 Lockheed Martin F-16 fighter aircraft it has bought from the Royal Jordanian Air Force in a 27 April ceremony at Mushaf airbase in Sargodha.
> 
> The PAF confirmed that the 13 F-16s to be eventually inducted comprise 12 F-16As and *one F-16B*. All were originally Block 15 models, but have undergone mid-life upgrades though no further information was disclosed on their weapon systems and/or avionics.
> 
> A PAF official stated that with the induction of the five Jordanian F-16s, the PAF now had 76 F-16s. These include 18 F-16C/D Block 52 versions; the remaining 58 are all of the A/ B variants.
> 
> In recent months the PAF has attacked suspected sites belonging to Taliban militants in the tribal region along the Afghan border. "The new F-16 fighters will be very useful to step up the attacks," the PAF official said.
> 
> Although Pakistan first bought F-16s in the 1980s, Islamabad was stung in the 1990s by US sanctions in response to its development of nuclear weapons that culminated in tests in 1998. Washington resumed the sale of military hardware to Pakistan after the 11 September 2001 terrorist attacks on the United States. This included new and used F-16s, which were provided in return for Islamabad's support against Al-Qaeda and Taliban militants in Afghanistan.
> 
> A senior Western defence official based in Islamabad said the PAF's continued push to receive more F-16s suggests that the JF-17 Thunder, which Pakistan developed with China, is still being refined. "Pakistan has made good progress on the JF-17, but it seems they haven't given up yet on the F-16," he said.
> 
> JDW



I stopped reading right there.


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## Munir

Now you understand why I get shocked of the level of reporting by Janes... Back 20-30 years ago Janes was the source that made difference. These days Janes is as crap as anything else. Any idiot that knows that there were two duals delivered.


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## fatman17

Pakistan 




*History*
Pakistan was formed with the partition of India In 1947 and the air force consisted of a proportion of the old Indian Air Force. The initially proposed national flag was plain green with a white star and crescent, the air force insignia being a green disc similarly marked. However, mindful of non-Muslim minorities a white band was added to the flag, and a plain white and green roundel became the air force marking. There is no evidence that the original marking was ever used. The fin flash has always been a green square bearing a white star and crescent. Both roundel and fin flash have often been outlined in yellow. Aircraft of the Pakistan Navy have featured a black anchor across the roundel.


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## Najam Khan

fatman17 said:


> Pakistan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *History*
> Pakistan was formed with the partition of India In 1947 and the air force consisted of a proportion of the old Indian Air Force. The initially proposed national flag was plain green with a white star and crescent, the air force insignia being a green disc similarly marked. However, mindful of non-Muslim minorities a white band was added to the flag, and a plain white and green roundel became the air force marking. There is no evidence that the original marking was ever used. The fin flash has always been a green square bearing a white star and crescent. Both roundel and fin flash have often been outlined in yellow. Aircraft of the Pakistan Navy have featured a black anchor across the roundel.



Just an observation, in the start PAF roundl also had a yellow outline( in outward most cycle) on combat aircraft. This roundl with yellow outline remained from 1947-1950. All aircraft received during this era (such as tempest, fury, halifax) had similar pattern, whereas aircraft procured after 1950 (or super-marine attacker) all had only green and white round.

Fury, 9 Sqn
http://www.pafwallpapers.com/aircraft_gallery/Fury_gallery/fury_griffins.jpg
http://www.pafwallpapers.com/aircraft_gallery/Fury_gallery/TwoSeater_fury.jpg

Tempest
http://www.pafwallpapers.com/aircraft_gallery/Tempest_gallery/tempest_rpaf.jpg

Halifax
http://www.pafwallpapers.com/aircraft_gallery/Halifax_gallery/Haifax_flightline.jpg
Attacker
http://www.pafwallpapers.com/aircraft_gallery/Attacker_gallery/no_11_sqn_attacker_flt_line.jpg

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## nomi007

Chinese contingent arrives in Pakistan for joint air drill

(Source: Xinhua) 2014-05-05

ISLAMABAD, May 5 (Xinhua) -- A Chinese air force contingent arrived in Pakistan on Monday for a joint drill.

The drill, code-named "Shaheen (Eagle)-3," will be held at the Rafiqui air base in the northeastern province of Punjab.

The joint training, part of the exchange and cooperation programs between the two air forces, is expected to strengthen the friendly and cooperative relationship, the Chinese Defense Ministry said in a statement.

The first such drill was held in Pakistan in March 2011, and the second in China's western Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region last August.

Editorong Zhaohui
* There is a full squadron at Rafiqui AB for Shaheen III *


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## HAIDER

Love this picture..

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## khanboy007

HAIDER said:


> Love this picture..



I love the B-57's 

IMO these beasts/birds/legends were the best PAF ever had


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## fatman17

B-57 flight line Mauripur.




Waleed Ehsanul Karim in front of his F-86

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## fatman17

No 19 Sqdn slated to re-equip with the Jordanian F-16s.





Gr-Capt Nosey Haider, OC 19 Sqdn


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## fatman17

*DEFENCE NOTES
F-104 Starfighters in PAKISTAN AIR FORCE *

*Columnist Gp Capt. SM HALI gives a historical review of the famous STARFIGHTER in the PAF battle fleet.*

*Introduction* 
*P*akistan, which remained an important ally of the United States throughout the cold war was the first non-NATO country to equip with the F-104 Starfighter. The F-104 As and Bs provided to the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) under the US Mutual Defence Assistance Programme entered service in 1961 and continued to fly until 1972 when dwindling spares support forced their early retirement. In all twelve F-104As and two F-104 Bs were transferred to Pakistan (table below):

*Serial 
Model 
Tail # 
Date Received*
1-12 
F-104 A 
56-803 
August 5, 1961
56-804 
August 5, 1961
56-805 
August 5, 1961
56-807 
August 5, 1961
56-868 
August 5, 1961
56-874 
August 5, 1961
56-875 
August 5, 1961
56-877 
August 5, 1961
56-879 
August 5, 1961
56-773 
June 8, 1964
56-798 
March 1, 1965
13-14 
F-104 B 
57-1309 
August 5, 1961
57-1312 
August 5, 1961

At PAF’s request, all its F-104As were refitted with the M-61 Gatling 20 mm gun, whereas its counterparts in the USAF had been divested of their guns on the assumption that all post-Korea air combat would occur at high speeds where only the wing tip-mounted Sidewinder missiles would be effective. The PAF’s foresight was amply rewarded in actual combat and the USAF too reverted to having machine guns as mandatory equipment on all its fighters in due course. The newer GWE- J-79-11 engine was also installed on the aircraft. This made the Pakistan F-104s somewhat unique: they had the gun and being the lightest of F-104 series with a more advanced J-79 engine enjoyed the best thrust-to-weight ratio. 

The only PAF unit to be equipped with the F-104 was No 9 Air Superiority Squadron. The squadron flies the F-16 today. The in-commission rate of the F-104 during the first five years of service was over 80 % and all its systems performed with high reliability. The fighter was employed in the air-to-air role by the PAF and was used extensively for aerial gunnery against both banner targets and the Dart targets with excellent scores. In strafing attacks the M-61 gun was superbly accurate.

The F-104 Starfighters remained in service with Pakistan Air Force for twelve years and flew 11,690 hours. During the 1965 Pakistan-India War, the F-104s flew a total of 246 hours and 45 minutes while during the 1971 War, the F-104s flew a total of 103 hours and forty-five minutes. 

*1965 Pakistan-India War *
During the 1965 War, PAF was forced to rely on its small force of F-104A Starfighters as high altitude interceptors and in its night fighting role, using the radar of its AN/ASG-14T1 fire-control system, in conjunction with Sidewinder air-to-air missiles. 

After 1 September, the F-104s were extremely active in Air Defence and Air Superiority Operations, but of the 246 missions flown by F-104s during hostilities, 42 were at night against the IAF Canberras. The rudimentary fire-control radar met the Soviet high altitude bomber threat of the Cold War era for which it was designed but it could not illuminate small targets against ground clutter. The standard high speed intercept tactic employed by PAF’s F-104 pilots was to approach their targets from below, with a typical height differential of 2-3,000 feet, against a target they wished to acquire at a range of 10-15 kilomenters. This limitation was well known to the Canberra jet bomber pilots of IAF who attacked targets in Pakistan during the 1965 war. They adopted a standard hi-lo-hi profile to minimize the threat of interception. During most of their inbound and outbound flight over Pakistani territory the IAF Canberras would stay below about 1000 feet during their approach and exit phases. This posed a difficult night intercept problem. The PAF’s F-104s had in these circumstances to be used in an unconventional low-altitude intercept profile that severely challenged the capabilities of its airborne radar. To pick up the low flying bombers on their scope the F-104 pilots had to get down to about 300-500 feet above the ground to point their radars upward and clear of ground clutter at the enemy bombers. The problem was aggravated by the Canberra’s tail warning audio alarm that would go off the moment an F-104 got to a near astern position, and enable the bomber to take timely evasive action to shake off its pursuer. 

The F-104s were highly dreaded by the Indian Air Force (IAF). On 3rd September, 1965, even before the War began, an Indian Gnat surrendered to an F-104 which forced it to land at the abandoned airfield of Pasrur (in Pakistan). Its pilot Squadron Leader Brijpal Singh Sikand became a POW. 

On 6 September, two Starfighters were sent on dawn patrol from Sargodha. They were vectored by Sakesar Radar towards 4 IAF Mysteres engaged in bomb and rocket attacks against a stationary passenger train at Gakkhar railway station. One of the F-104 pilots was forced to return to base with a radio failure but the other pilot, Flight Lieutenant Aftab Alam Khan dived his F-104 with full after burners, going supersonically through the Mysteres formation which promptly scattered. The Indian aircraft tried to escape at about 50 feet above the ground but they were no match for the Starfighter. Aftab destroyed one Mysteres with his Sidewinder missile thus achieving one of the world’s first air victories by a mach 2 combat aircraft. 

The other F-104 pilot, Flight Lieutenant Amjad Khan, who had missed his chance the previous day, made amends on 7 September. He was scrambled in an F-104 at about 05:15 hours and directed by Sakesar radar towards an incoming raid at Sargodha. He made visual contact with the IAF Mysteres and headed towards them. By the time he caught up with them, the Indian aircraft were 6-8 miles away from Sargodha, flying at 150-200 feet on a south-easterly heading towards India. As the Mysteres jettisoned their drop tanks, Flight Lieutenant Amjad Hussain positioned himself behind one of them and released a GAR-8 missile, which went straight into the ground. The Mystere then began to dogfight with the Starfighter, which used its superior climb and acceleration to lift the combat from ground level to about 7,000 feet to gain room for manoeuvre. Hussain fired his cannons and was delighted to see the shell hit the Mystere. The Mystere pilot showed commendable courage in staying with the F-104, and despite being mortally wounded, scored several cannon strikes on the Starfighter.

Flight Lieutenant Amjad Hussain managed to eject safely and reached his Base. This was the first and only Starfighter to be lost through enemy action in the 1965 war. The Indian pilot Squadron Leader A.B. Devayya was posthumously awarded the Maha Vir Chakra in 1988, twenty three years after the war, when Indian authorities learnt of the IAF pilot’s valour through an account of the encounter published in John Fricker’s book Battle for Pakistan, published in 1978. 

On 21 September, Squadron Leader Jamal A Khan, intercepted an Indian Air Force Canberra at about 33,000 feet and shot it down with a Sidewinder near Fazilka, inside Pakistani territory. The bomber’s pilot, Flight Lieutenant Manmohan Lowe ejected and was made POW while its navigator, Flying Officer A K Kapor could not bail out and was killed in action. The British made Canberra, unlike its American counterpart the Martin B-57, had no ejection seat for the navigator. This was the first kill achieved by an F-104 at night after a number of near misses due to factors described earlier.

F-104s were also used during 1965 for low level, daylight reconnaissance missions over the IAF air bases. The speed of the Starfighter gave the Indians no time to react. The F-104s were also employed as escorts for the slow Lockheed RT-33 reconnaissance fighters on photographic missions deep into Indian territory, the presence of Starfighters virtually guaranteeing that no air opposition would be encountered. Six F-104 pilots received gallantry awards during the 1965 War.

*1971 Pakistan-India War *
Air operations in 1971 Pakistan-India War commenced with a preemptive strike by PAF. In the 1971 War the F-104 was also used for deep penetration strikes against enemy airfields and radars. Two F-104s each attacked Amritsar and Faridkot Indian Air Force Radars. The attack on Faridkot Radar was led by Wing Commander Arif Iqbal, who not only damaged the Radar but also shot down an IAF Krishak aircraft.

On 4 December, Squadron Leaders Amanullah and Rashid Bhatti attacked Amritsar Radar. They met with stiff resistance but managed to shoot down two aircraft, an Indian Gnat and an Su-7. The pilot of the Gnat, Flight Lieutenant J Preira was Killed in Action. On 08 December, Flight Lieutenant Manzoor Bokhari intercepted an IAF Canberra and shot it down. On 10 December, Wing Commander Arif Iqbal, while attacking the Indian Harbour of Okha, shot down an Alize aircraft of Indian Navy. Its crew members, Lieutenant Commander Ashok Roy, Lieutenant H S Sirohi and AC O Vijayan were killed in action. PAF lost two F-104s along with their pilots, Wing Commander Mervyn Leslie Middlecoat and Flight Lieutenant Samad Changezi both were awarded gallantry awards of Sitara-e-Jurat (roughly equivalent to the British Distinguished Flying Cross). Flight Lieutenant Bharat B Soni, a MiG-21 pilot was credited with having shot down Wing Commander Middlecoat while Flight Lieutenant Arun K Dutta, another MiG-21 pilot was awarded the claim of having shot down Flight Lieutenant Samad Changezi.

The US Government imposed an embargo on arms sales to both India and Pakistan as soon as the 1965 war began. No consideration was given to the fact that India, a long-time ally of the Soviet Union, hardly used any American military equipment and the sanctions exclusively degraded the combat potential of only the Pakistani Armed Forces. The PAF fleet of F-104s was particularly hard hit by the arms embargoes. Eventually it became impossible to maintain a reasonable in-commission rate on the F-104s and the PAF decided to phase it out of service in late 1972. This ended the era of Pakistan Air Force’s first mach-2 combat aircraft.
*THE STAR FIGHTERS' FAREWELL FLIGHT *

*THE STAR FIGHTERS' FAREWELL FLIGHT 1972
*

After eleven years of eventful service, a pair of No.9 Squadron's F-104As lifts off the Masroor runway to mark the Lockhead Starfighter's last mission in the PAF. The F-104's life in the PAF was cut short by the United States Government's "even-handed" arms embargo on both Pakistan and India after the 1965 and 1971 wars. Washington chose to ignore the fact that India, a long-time ally of the Soviet Union throughout the Cold War, did not possess any American military equipment and the sanctions thus exclusively penalized the armed force of Pakistan. In the face of increasing difficulty in obtaining spares, the PAF finally decided in mid-1972 to phase out the starfighters. The PAF's F-104s were somewhat unique. While being the lightest among the starfighters in combat configuration, the more powerful J-79-IIA engines gave them additional manoeuvre energy. The 20mm Galling gun, retrofitted to the PAF's F-104s by specific request, also added to the fighter's combat effectiveness. Many heavyhearted airmen and officers of No 9 Squadron witnessed the farewell flight, some of them served in the Squadron for two wars. From among the Squadron's veteran pilots, the two took up the Starfighters for the last time.

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## fatman17

F-86F Napalm

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## nomi007

*سرگودھا: پاک فوج کے سربراہ جنرل راحیل شریف نے کہا ہے کہ پاک فضائیہ مشکل ترین وقت میں عوام کی امنگوں پر پورا اتری ہے ضرورت پڑنے پر بری فوج پاک فضائیہ کے شانہ بشانہ کھڑی ہوگی۔*

سرگودھا میں پاک فضائیہ کے مصحف ایئربیس پر اردن سے حاصل کئے گئے 13 ایف 16 جنگی طیاروں کی پاک فضائیہ کے فورتھ اسکواڈرن میں شمولیت کرنے کی پروقار تقریب منعقد ہوئی، جس کے مہمان خصوصی آرمی چیف جنرل راحیل شریف تھے، اس موقع پر پاک فضائیہ کے سربراہ ائیر چیف مارشل طاہر رفیق بٹ بھی موجود تھے۔ پاک فوج کے سربراہ جنرل راحیل شریف نے ایف 16 طیارے پاک فضائیہ کے حوالے کئے۔

پاک فضائیہ کے سربراہ ائیر چیف مارشل طاہر رفیق بٹ نے تقریب سے خطاب کرتے ہوئے کہا کہ پاک فضائیہ قوم کو درپیش چیلنجزسے نمٹنے کے لئے تیار ہے، مشکلات کے باوجود بیرونی جارحیت کا مقابلہ کریں گے، وہ ایف 16 طیاروں کی فراہمی پر اردن کی شاہی فضائیہ کے شکر گزار ہیں، ایف 16 طیاروں کی شمولیت سے پاک فضائیہ کو اندرونی اور بیرونی چیلنجز سے موثر طور پر نمٹنے میں مدد ملے گی۔

پاک فوج کے سربراہ جنرل راحیل شریف کا کہنا تھا کہ ملک کی مسلح افواج ملک کی حفاظت اور ترقی کے لئے پُرعزم ہیں۔ پاک فضائیہ مشکل ترین وقت میں عوام کی امنگوں پر پورا اتری ہے، ہم یہ بات سمجھتے ہیں کہ پاک فضائیہ کا اہم کردارہے، موجودہ دور میں فضائیہ کی اہمیت اور بھی بڑھ گئی ہے۔ جہاں بھی ضرورت پڑی تو پاک فضائیہ کے شانہ بشانہ کھڑے ہوں گے، انہوں نے کہا کہ اردن ہمارا عظیم دوست ہے، طیاروں کی فراہمی پر اردن فضائیہ کے شکر گزار ہیں۔

واضح رہے کہ پاکستان نے اردن سے 13 ایف 16 طیاروں کی خریداری کا معاہدہ کیا تھا، ان طیاروں کی شمولیت کے بعد پاک فضائیہ کے بیڑے میں ایف 16 طیاروں کی تعداد 76 ہوجائے گی۔

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## antonyye

I L U air force Pf


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## fatman17

FT-5 flight line - Mianwali AB





Mirage IIID flight line.





F-7PG - Lethal.





Combat Commanders School - TopGun.





CCS

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## fatman17

*Final ex-Jordanian F-16s Delivered to Pakistan AF*
Posted on: May 21st, 2014



Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt, Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Chief of the Air Staff, plus His Excellency Nawaf Khalifa Araieh, Jordanian Ambassador to Pakistan, together with the PAF pilots who flew the aircraft in from Jordan, pose for a group photograph at PAF Base Mushaf-Sargodha on April 27 following the delivery of the first five of 13 ex-Royal Jordanian Air Force F-16A/Bs to the PAF. The remaining eight aircraft arrived at the base today. PAF

DELIVERY OF the remaining eight of the 13 ex-Royal Jordanian Air Force (RJAF) F-16A/Bs being acquired by the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) was completed today, May 21. The aircraft were flown in to PAF Base Mushaf-Sargodha, joining the initial five ex-RJAF aircraft which, as previously reported on _AFD_, had arrived at the base on April 27.

All 13 of the new deliveries will be operated by 19 Squadron ‘Sherdils’, which was officially re-formed at Mushaf as an F-16 unit on the same day as the first five aircraft arrived. With the final aircraft now delivered, a formal induction ceremony was held today, with Army chief General Raheel Sharif as the chief guest.He said these aircraft will further increase the capabilities of the PAF and also noted that both the Army and Air Force are making co-operative efforts to get maximum results against war on terror.

PAF Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt, Chief of the Air Staff, said that the addition of the new squadron will increase PAF’s capacity in combating both internal as well as external challenges.

The precise mix of F-16As and ’Bs in the package of 13 aircraft remains unconfirmed. As we reported previously, it was said to have involved 12 F-16As and one F-16B, but when the first five arrived, it included two F-16Bs and three F-16As. Whether all of today’s arrivals were all F-16As has yet to be confirmed. AFD-

Dave Allport

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## fatman17

RT-33 Recon.





B-57B Gate guard is at Masroor.

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## fatman17

F-104A with the M-61 Vulcan cannon.

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## Kompromat

@Windjammer | Do you have any PAF R Darter images?


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## Windjammer

Aeronaut said:


> @Windjammer | Do you have any PAF R Darter images?


@Aeronaut, no dear, albeit read much between the lines but certainly haven't come across any images.
@ Shaheen-3 Hopefully next week. BTW, news floating that Haseeb Paracha may be assuming command of Jacobabad.

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## afshan6666

please anybody let me know how to send personal message to other ? to any user ? I am new on this web


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## nomi007

shaheen III
look j-10 also present


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## Drebin

@Windjammer, I'm from Jacobabad and would like to knowthat character of the man. i.e., Haseeb Paracha. Can you tell me moreabout the man? And, are our Chinese brethren wearing a digital came?


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## fatman17

*Sino-Pak Shaheen III Air Exercise Commences in Pakistan*
*
May. 27, 2014 - 05:14PM | By USMAN ANSARI *







*Chinese J-10 fighter jets perform at the Zhuhai Air Show. The current Shaheen exercise with Pakistan marks the J-10's first appearance in an overseas exercise. (AFP)*

*ISLAMABAD* — China and Pakistan commenced their third installment in the Shaheen (Falcon) series of bilateral exercises here over the weekend, according to a Pakistan Air Force (PAF) spokesman.
Shaheen III is described as a multi-dimensional joint exercise aimed at boosting cooperation and imparting knowledge gained through flying/combat experience conducted in a near real scenario, allowing participants to familiarize themselves with the latest concepts and practices.

Though the location within Pakistan of the exercise has not been revealed, the Chinese are participating with a Chengdu F-7 and a Chengdu J-10 aircraft, along with associated support crews and equipment. The PAF is participating with JF-17 Thunder, Mirage and F-7PG aircraft.

Shaheen II was held in China in 2013 and lasted three weeks, but the PAF would not comment if Shaheen III will be held for the same duration.

Asked if the limited number of aircraft would hinder obtaining worthwhile experience from the exercise, former Australian defense attache to Islamabad Brian Cloughley said he did not think “the point of the exercise is entirely professional improvement but rather that it has political connotations.

“The fact remains that there is undoubted mutual benefit in joining with other air forces in practicing techniques and this is no exception. No doubt both the PAF and the PLA(AF) would have welcomed greater numbers from the latter, and it would be interesting to know the reason for the modest PLA contribution, but I don’t think there is anything deep in this,” he added.

Similarly, analyst Usman Shabbir of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank said the event is “just a regular exercise to keep pilot and crew training up to date.”

Though he added, “The exercise is a great advantage for both air forces, as Chinese pilots get a chance to fly against an adversary whose training and tactics are Western based and PAF gets a chance to fly against a new type.”

Shabbir did, however, highlight that the exercise marks the debut of both the JF-17 in the Shaheen series, and the first time the J-10 has participated in an overseas exercise.

The exercise comes at a time when speculation among analysts once again points toward a possible purchase of the FC-20 variant of the J-10B for the PAF. However, Shabbir believes this to be a little wide of the mark.

The speculation stems from reports in the Chinese media of negotiations involving the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), the home of Pakistan’s aviation industry, to co-develop or at least co-produce a variant of the J-10.

However, Shabbir is unsure if this means Pakistan will acquire the FC-20, a previously agreed advanced variant of the J-10B that appears to have been abandoned in favor of more surplus F-16s. He speculates the negotiations may be focused more on production capacity issues in China and Pakistan, with PAC hoping to repeat success it had with a similar deal with Turkey.

“PAC has been marketing itself as a facility that has unutilized capacity to produce various airframe parts and components on a commercial basis. That is how it [PAC] came to produce airframe parts for Turkish Anka UAV,” he said.

It is possible, he said, there will be a “similar setup ... where PAC is just going to produce airframe parts and ship them to China for final assembly, thus reducing the pressure on the Chinese line.”

At present, various sources indicate that the number of J-10 aircraft in service with the Chinese Air Force and Navy is a little over 200, but with production ongoing. However, both forces require more to replace large numbers of legacy types. ■

*Email: uansari@defensenews.com.*

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## nomi007



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## fatman17

nomi007 said:


>


 
dont mess with her...!!!

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## Windjammer

*Hitting The Deck.*
Most of you have seen this image, Official SOP is not to fly below 500ft. But our boys being boys broke all SOPs (with the Chief sitting in front) and decided to hit the deck below 100ft. Had it been any other Air Force, breaking SOPs, the pilots may have been grounded. But on that day everybody forgot the SOPs and enjoyed the buzz. I also learned that the six hour flight from Jordan to Pakistan was via UAE.

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## Windjammer

*Memorable Flight.*
_Alan Warnes with the then OC of No 11 Squadron when he was flown in a F-16B for the famous JF-17 live firing shoot._

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## nomi007



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## Dazzler

AERO made Real time datalink...

AERO Advance Real Time Data Link System (RTDL-A) - : Aerokhi

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## Bratva

Dazzler said:


> AERO made Real time datalink...
> 
> AERO Advance Real Time Data Link System (RTDL-A) - : Aerokhi



Only deficiency is it's not a full duplex but a half duplex data link. Airborne range is fine but for ground terminal, it seems less.


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## Dazzler

development continues, we may see more variants but having a realtime datalink adds a crucial component to network centric warfare capabilities.


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## Bratva

Dazzler said:


> AERO made Real time datalink...
> 
> AERO Advance Real Time Data Link System (RTDL-A) - : Aerokhi



@Oscar any thoughts?


Btw, PAF and ISI both has been allocated similar budget



> A*s usual, the army has received the bigger slice by getting Rs331.4bn. The Pakistan Air Force (PAF); and Inter-Services Organizations and Defense Production Establishment roughly got equal share with Rs 149.7 billion and 147 billion respectively.
> 
> Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) is also paid out of the allocation (Rs 147 billion) for Inter-Services Organizations'.
> [*/QUOTE]
> 
> 11pc increase in defence spending proposed - Pakistan - DAWN.COM


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## Jango

I was listening to the ATC feed of Karachi airport and there is an aircraft with call sign Pakistan Air Force 101...the pilot is a lady.

Are there female pilots in PAF other than a combat role? Do female pilots fly VIp as well?

@Windjammer...?


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## Windjammer

Fulcrum15 said:


> I was listening to the ATC feed of Karachi airport and there is an aircraft with call sign Pakistan Air Force 101...the pilot is a lady.
> 
> Are there female pilots in PAF other than a combat role? Do female pilots fly VIp as well?
> 
> @Windjammer...?


Yup, when they can't meet the requirements of combat roles, they are seconded to other duties, here in the video you can see @ 0.25 one of the female pilots getting training on a VIP jet.


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## Bratva

*VANISHING PROGRAMMABLE RESOURCES (VAPR)*


Sophisticated electronics can be made at low cost and are increasingly pervasive throughout the battlefield. Large numbers can be widely proliferated and used for applications such as distributed remote sensing and communications. However, it is nearly impossible to track and recover every device resulting in unintended accumulation in the environment and potential unauthorized use and compromise of intellectual property and technological advantage.

The Vanishing Programmable Resources (VAPR) program seeks electronic systems capable of physically disappearing in a controlled, triggerable manner. These transient electronics should have performance comparable to commercial-off-the-shelf electronics, but with limited device persistence that can be programmed, adjusted in real-time, triggered, and/or be sensitive to the deployment environment.

VAPR seeks to enable transient electronics as a deployable technology. To achieve this goal, researchers are pursuing new concepts and capabilities to enable the materials, components, integration, and manufacturing that will realize this new class of electronics.

Transient electronics may enable a number of revolutionary military capabilities including sensors for conventional indoor/outdoor environments, environmental monitoring over large areas, and simplified diagnosis, treatment, and health monitoring in the field. Large-area distributed networks of sensors that can decompose in the natural environment (ecoresorbable) may provide critical data for a specified duration, but no longer. Alternatively, devices that resorb into the body (bioresorbable) may aid in continuous health monitoring and treatment in the field.

VAPR was announced with a broad agency announcement in January 2013.

Vanishing Programmable Resources (VAPR)


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## Windjammer

A memorable picture of ACM Mushaf Ali Mir (Shaheed) with then a AVM, T M Ahmed with a very interesting bird in the background.

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## fatman17

*Pentagon Awards $96 Million in Defense Contracts Tuesday*
By Rich Smith | More Articles 
June 11, 2014

The Department of Defense awarded only six defense contracts in its Tuesday evening announcement of contract awards, released after stock markets closed for the day. The total value of contracts awarded was $96.3 million.
Four publicly traded defense companies won contracts, namely:

*United Technologies* (NYSE: UTX ) , whose subsidiary won an $11 million sole-source, firm-fixed-price, foreign military sales contract to supply spare parts and support equipment to Pakistan under a "Pakistan DB-110 sustainment effort" that will continue through July 2015.

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## fatman17

F-6 Farmer-C PAF Model.





F-6 Retired - Samugli.

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## fatman17

PAF FT-5





PAF FT-6

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## fatman17

Air Platforms
*First Block 2 JF-17s under construction in Pakistan*
*Alan Warnes, Islamabad* - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
30 June 2014


Production of the first two of 50 Block 2 JF-17s on order by the Pakistan Air Force is now well under way at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, Kamra. Source: Alan Warnes

Production of the first two of 50 Block 2 JF-17s on order by the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is now well under way at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, Kamra, with the first expected to fly by the end of the year.

The Block 2 JF-17 has several capability increases over the Block 1s, but the main boost to the PAF as well as to export potential is the installation of an air-to-air refuelling system. One aircraft has been fitted with a refuelling probe, which protrudes from the right side of the fuselage just behind the cockpit, sitting forward of the pilot's position. It is being used for flight trials.

However, this modification will not appear in Block 2 aircraft until midway through the production at the Aircraft Manufacturing Factory (AMF), probably in early 2016, PAF officials said. Coupled with software enhancements, other new features include an upgrade to the avionics system that works around China's Nanjing KLJ-7 radar.

A detail of the refuelling probe on one of the first two Block 2 JF-17s. (Alan Warnes)

As a result, the Block 2s can add the Chinese-designed C-802 anti-ship missile and SD-10A beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile to the Block 1s' existing armoury, which includes Mk 82/84 dumb bombs and the PL-5-EII short-range air-to-air missile. All the Block 1s will eventually be upgraded with the Block 2 improvements.

With an urgent need to export JF-17s, a two-seater will be built in the Block 2 time frame. The PAF had always said that a two-seater is not urgent, but Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt now admits that a dual seater is a necessity. "We realise that it is required, because the air forces interested in buying JF-17 want one," he said.

PAF pilots currently converting to JF-17 are accumulating around 25 hours on a JF-17 simulator operational at Kamra, where one of the two operational squadrons is based. Nearly all the Block 1s have now been delivered to the PAF, which has a current requirement for 150 to replace the ageing F-7P and Mirage III/Vs.

*Related article: *Myanmar looks to acquire JF-17 aircraft





JFT BLK 2 under construction.




JFT BLK 2 refuelling probe.

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## fatman17




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## fatman17

AGM-65 Maverick





AGM-84 Harpoon





AGM-88 Harm





AIM-7 Sparrow





AIM-9 Sidewinder





AIM-120 Amraam





GBU-12

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## Hammad-ROX

fatman17 said:


> dont mess with her...!!!


Lolz


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## Hammad-ROX

nomi007 said:


>


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## fatman17

The pilot shown in Pakistan Air Force (PAF) North American F-86F Sabre cockpit in this sketch is Squadron Leader Alauddin 'Butch' Ahmed and he's one of PAF heroes of 1965 Pak-India war who gave their life for the country.

Apparently, following photo of Sqn Ldr Alauddin 'Butch' Ahmed helped the artist in making this sketch.





Squadron Leader Alauddin 'Butch' Ahmed – Photo source book ‘Battle for Pakistan – The Air War of 1965’ by John Fricker.

Some years ago, following rare photo of Sqn Ldr Alauddin 'Butch' Ahmed appeared in a local newspaper with an article related to 1965 Pak-India war and I'm including further info as a tribute to this brave son of Pakistan.

*Squadron Leader Alauddin 'Butch' Ahmed*





*Squadron Leader Alauddin 'Butch' Ahmed in fighter pilot flight suit (centre holding something in his hands) with his fellow pilots. During 1965 war ground attack mission, although Squadron Leader Alauddin 'Butch' Ahmed ejected safely from his burning Sabre after it had been blown up following his attack on an Indian ammunition train, Squadron Leader Alauddin 'Butch' Ahmed was believed to have been shot while descending by parachute in the battle area.*

The last mission led by Sqn Ldr Alauddin 'Butch' Ahmed on September 13, 1965 is described as follows in book ‘Battle for Pakistan – The Air War of 1965’ by John Fricker.

"Trains presented tempting targets for the ground attack aircraft of both combatant countries, and the PAF had a notable encounter of this type on 13 September. Four 32 Wing Sabres led by Sqn Ldr 'Butch' Ahmed, accompanied by Flt Lts Saleem, Amanullah and Manzoor, were making their second offensive patrol of the morning, having blasted a number of enemy tanks and guns in the Chawinda-Narowal sector soon after the first light. Flying low along the Batala-Gurdaspur railway at about 10.30hrs, the four Sabres came across a train on which they dived, only to pull away without attacking when it was identified by Sqn Ldr Ahmed as carrying civilian passengers.

Reaching the end of their patrol line within distant sight, in the early morning haze, of the runways at Pathankot, the Sabres set course towards the town of Gurdaspur, still searching for signs of Indian Army activity. In the goods yard of Gurdaspur station the PAF section had better luck, and a long line of freight wagons soon yielded some spectacular explosions as the probing fire from the F-86s set ammunition and military stores ablaze. Pressing home his attacks to point-blank range, Sqn Ldr Ahmed flew so low that his aircraft was struck by fragments from the exploding trucks, but with no apparent damage he continued flying into the thick pall of smoke which quickly shrouded the scene.

Because of the restricted visibility, his last attack was lower than ever, and his salvo of rockets found a store of high explosive which engulfed his Sabre in a massive blast of pressure waves and debris. So violent was the explosion that the other Sabres were buffetted almost out of control, and 'Butch' Ahmed had no hope of avoiding action. With Pakistani territory barely 12 miles away – just about one of a half minutes’ flying time – he called, ‘My cockpit is full of smoke,’ and tried to head his crippled aircraft towards the west. A moment later he added, ‘It seems to be all right now,’ but those were the last words ever heard from him.

It is known that 'Butch' Ahmed ejected from his burning Sabre, and two other F-86s flying in the vicinity from Peshawar were diverted by Sqn Ldr 'Nosey' Haider to cover him on his way down. PAF aircraft, assisted by Pak Army Cessna L-19s, spent five hours searching the area in an attempt to rescue him. But Sqn Ldr Ahmed was dead by the time he reached the ground, and is generally thought to have been shot while hanging helplessly from his parachute. ‘If he’d reached the ground alive, nothing on earth could have stopped him from escaping’, was Sqn Ldr Haider’s comments. A fitting epitaph, perhaps, for one of the finest and most popular officers in the PAF. Sqn Ldr Ahmed was awarded a posthumous Sitara-e-Jurat for his exemplary leadership, courage and valour."

Some more info is in chapter titled 'Blasting of Ammo Train' of book titled 'Story of PAF Heroes'.

*Blasting of Ammo Train*

“DON’T hit it. It is a passenger train”, called out the chivalrous leader of flight of four fighter-bombers as they zoomed past a train steaming along Batala-Gurdaspur railway line.

It was 10.30 in the morning and Squadron Leader Alauddin Ahmed, known as ‘Butch’ by his friends, was on his second mission of the day.

That morning, with the break of dawn, he had led the army-support mission of four Sabres in Chawinda-Narowal sector where the historic tank battle was still raging with all its blasting fury. Undaunted by heavy artillery fire they flew at tree-top level and blasted the enemy armour and guns with rockets and Armour Piercing and Incendiary (API) bullets sending huge spirals of smoke and fire all around. They made a number of strafing runs on the enemy until their whole ammunition was expended and they headed back home. After breakfast and little rest the pilots started getting ready for the next mission: this time an armed reconnaissance patrol over the Gurdaspur area.

It was past 10 O’clock and the heat of summer sun had started swelling when the Sabres again roared out of their base into the blue haze of September sky. With Squadron Leader Alauddin in the lead the four fighter-bombers – Flt. Lt. Saleem, Flt. Lt. Amanullah and Flt. Lt. Arif Manzoor in other cockpits – flew in battle formation and soon they were knifing gracefully through the enemy territory. With eight eyes scanning the skies all around and below for any speck or dot which could be enemy interceptors, they pressed on eastward. Nothing was in sight. The steady roar of the engines and the general air of tension combined to bring the nerves to a razor’s edge. They checked their guns and gunsights.

Suddenly the voice of Flt. Lt. Amanullah rang on R/T: “A train below at 5 O’clcok. Let us go for it.”

The four fanned out, and went into a steep dive towards the train. As they drew near and the form presented itself as a vivid picture they could see the terrified looks on the faces of passengers craning their necks out of the windows of the red coloured train in an effort to identify the on-rushing aircraft.

“On, no; it’s a passenger train. Don’t hit it”, came the word of command from the leader.

The Sabres pulled up from the sharp dive and leveled off. Rubbernecking, they again searched the sky, no enemy aircraft. The Indian skies seemed to be conspicuously free from their guardians.

With eyes peeled they roared on when suddenly the R/T again became alive. It was Saleem who had seen the runway of the IAF base at Pathankot gleaming in the distant haze. They had come to the end of the area assigned to them for reconnaissance. ‘Butch’ ordered return and with flick of hands on the boards the four were turning sharply to the left. Now they set course for the city of Gurdaspur. They were flying low, searching the ground below for any enemy build-up.

They had reached the outskirts of Gurdaspur when they beheld the silhouette of another train in the marshalling yard of the railway station.

“It may be the same train”, but on second thought ‘Butch’ decided to ‘check’ it.

Suddenly his aircraft peeled off to the right and went screaming down towards the railway station. It was a goods train. It could be some military hardware, he thought.

“I am going in for attack”, called out ‘Butch’.

The wagons grew bigger and bigger grimly enclosed by the circle of diamonds of his gun-sight; and his finger slowly but deliberately pressed the trigger. A stream of bullets slammed into the target. A terrific explosion followed and a huge column of black smoke and debris went up. He pulled up.

“It’s an ammunition train; let’s make a short work of it”. With these words ‘Butch’ dived for the second attack.

A few more rockets and bursts of API bullets, and number of other wagons went up in smoke and fire. Nothing was visible now as the whole place was engulfed in a black pall of smoke. Large pieces of twisted steel and burning wood were flying in all directions. ‘Butch’ had a narrow escape. Some splinters of broken metal hit his aircraft when he was pulling up from the dive. The Sabre lurched. He checked the instruments; all seemed to be well.

Now he circled overhead and saw the fireworks from above. A few buildings near the marshalling yard had also caught fire.

“I can’t see anything down below due to smoke. There might by some more wagons left”, said the leader on the R/T and again streaked down into the thick pall of smoke.

He was engulfed in the dark billowing clouds of black smoke rising more than a hundred feet above. ‘Butch’ strained his eyes to see if any part of the train was left. But, he could not make out anything. He must dive further. Again he went down until he was flying dangerously low, a few feet above the burning train.

All of a sudden he picked up the wagons he was looking for and pulled up steeply for yet another attack. His salvo of rockets scored direct hit and there was gigantic explosion of the munitions in the wagons which sent up pressure waves that shook the other Sabres flying high up like leaves in an autumn breeze. The debris leapt hundreds of feet into the air engulfing the whole area into darkness.

‘Butch’ had pulled up but to no avail. His Sabre was hit by flying debris and soon his cockpit was filled with pungent cordite smoke. He headed his aircraft towards Pakistan, a bare 12 miles away – a minute and half of flying time!

“My cockpit is full of smoke”, he called out to inform his formation. But a few moments later he said: “It seems to be all right now.” These were the last words his comrades heard.

The formation, at this time, was not in visual contact with one another, and when the deputy leader called again to confirm his safety, there was no response. Realising that ‘Butch’ must have bailed out, they carried out a vigorous search that was soon taken over by other aircraft. Army Aviation’s L-19s enthusiastically joined in and in spite of their greater vulnerability to ground fire and interception by enemy aircraft, they combed the entire area for five hours: all to no effect.

A great fighter pilot and a man of unsurpassed courage had gone.

Fifteen years ago a young boy was bitterly disappointed when he was told by the PAF recruiting officer that he could not be selected as a pilot as one of his legs was slightly shorter than the other. He appealed to higher authorities; and, on being rejected, to still higher authorities until they had no alternative but to concede to his enthusiasm. This youth blossomed into one of the most colourful and dashing fighter pilots during his career in the Pakistan Air Force.

Son of a well-known medical specialist of East Pakistan, Dr. T. Ahmed, Squadron Leader Alauddin Ahmed was born at Dacca in 1935. Always the centre of life at the station, he was man with cheerful spirit that was infectious. He had boyish grin, a firm handshake and a direct manner. In spite of his boisterous behaviour with his boys he always retained that streak of strict disciplinarian which demanded respect. All these combined to make him the very image and epitome of a young squadron commander.

Greatly loved and admired by his squadron pilots, ‘Butch’ was punctilious and thorough about his work. To every new pilot in his squadron he would relate a story of a German painter who was hired to paint a small patch on a wall. After painting it over twice he would throw a light on the patch from different angles to see if the colour was uniform. He would go away and return after two hours to check the final effect. The moral of story: work should be extremely thorough and even the minutest detail should be taken into account.

‘Butch’, who joined the PAF in 1951, was the winner of the coveted Sword of Honour on graduation from the PAF College in 1953.

Squadron Leader Alauddin Ahmed was awarded Sitara-e-Jurat posthumously for his “exemplary leadership, courage and valour” during the war. In the citation it was stated that Squadron Leader Alauddin Ahmed, as officer commanding of a PAF fighter-bomber squadron, led the squadron in twenty combat missions against the Indian ground and air force. His leadership throughout the operations was cool, courageous and most determined which inspired the greatest confidence amongst pilots of his formation and resulted in destruction of many Indian tanks and vehicles. His will to destroy the enemy was exemplary. He attacked and blew up an important ammunition train at Gurdaspur rail-head in complete disregard of his personal safety. During this attack on September 13, his aircraft was damaged and Squadron Leader Alauddin was reported missing over enemy territory. Subsequently, it was confirmed that the officer died in this action.” 

*Source: Book 'Story of PAF Heroes'.*

*Citation – September 1965 War

Sitara-e-Jurat

Squadron Leader Alauddin Ahmed, G.D. (P)*

Sqn Ldr Alauddin Ahmed, in the last Indo-Pakistan war, led his squadron in twenty combat missions against the Indian ground and air forces. His leadership throughout the operations was cool, courageous and most determined which inspired the greatest confidence amongst pilots of his formation and resulted in destruction of many Indian tanks and vehicles. His will to destroy the enemy was exemplary. He attacked and blew up an important ammunition train at Gurdaspur rail-head in complete disregard of his personal safety. During this attack on September 13, his aircraft was damaged and Sqn Ldr Ahmed was reported missing over enemy territory. Subsequently, it was confirmed that the officer died in this action. For his exemplary leadership, courage and valour, Sqn Ldr Alauddin Ahmed is awarded Sitara-e-Jurat posthumously.

*Source: History of the Pakistan Air Force – 1947-1982*

And, here's painting by Hussaini depicting last mission flown & led by Squadron Leader Alauddin 'Butch' Ahmed. The artist has shown exploding & flying debris hitting F-86F Sabre flown by Sqn Ldr 'Butch' Ahmed.






*Interdiction at Gurdaspur*

On 13 September 65, four Sabres led by Squadron Leader Alauddin 'Butch' Ahmed on their second offensive patrol over Indian lines of communication, attacked a long line of freight wagons at Gurdaspur railway yard. The Sabres’ rockets and guns soon yielded some spectacular explosions as the ammunition wagons received direct hits. Squadron Leader Ahmed’s F-86 was struck by fragments of an exploding train after he had fired a salvo of rockets at point blank range. Despite a radio call from him that he was ejecting from his disabled F-86 this superbly intrepid pilot never returned from this mission. He was awarded a posthumous Sitara-e-Jurat for his exemplary aggressiveness, combat leadership and valour.

*Source: Paintings book 'Air Warriors of Pakistan' – by Hussaini*

Here I would also like to add that a road in Lahore Cantonment is named 'Alauddin Road' in memory of Squadron Leader Alauddin 'Butch' Ahmed.

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## fatman17

F-86





F-86

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## razgriz19

why did Alan Warnes say that we might not see IFR probe till the middle of Block 2 production?
is it still in testing phase?


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## SQ8

Bratva said:


> @Oscar any thoughts?



Not much, there is the proprietary system req for a data link that is compatible with link-16 but offers features between Link-16/22.. began some four years ago so things must have moved along since then.


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## fatman17

*How Martin-Baker rises above the rest*

By: Craig Hoyle
London
Source: 


1 Jul 2014

Almost 70 years ago, a pioneering British company performed its first test of an innovation which was to transform the cockpit of the jet fighter, and has since saved the lives of thousands of pilots.

Carried out on 24 July 1946, the milestone was the first in-flight use of a Martin-Baker ejection seat. Conducted from the rear cockpit of a Gloster Meteor flying at 278kt (515km/h) and 8,000ft, the test subject was not a fighter pilot, but volunteer Bernard Lynch, who worked for the company as a fitter.

The company is now the world’s leading supplier of such systems. Its headquarters and main production site is located at the end of a quiet residential road in Higher Denham, near Uxbridge, Middlesex – just a few minutes drive from the M25 motorway. Once a First World War army training camp, the site has been home to the now-aircrew survival system specialist since 1929, when it began operating as Martin’s Aircraft Works.

Prototype products included the MB2 and MB3 fighters, which were first flown in 1938 and 1942, respectively, and the MB5, which took to the air in 1944. Further designs included the jet-powered MB6, which never flew.

Martin-Baker still uses the Meteor as a test aircraft.

However, company founder (and later Sir) James Martin’s interest in developing a crew survival system had been sparked by the loss of his friend and test pilot Capt Valentine Baker, who was killed when his MB3 crashed due to engine failure in September 1942.

Within less than four years the Mk 1 ejection seat was being tested in
the air by the renamed Martin-Baker, and by 1951 it was an operational system, installed on types including the Royal Air Force’s V-bomber force.

New and improved seat designs for additional aircraft types followed swiftly, and by May 1965 the first 1,000 lives had been saved. Within less than three years this number doubled – in no small part due to attrition encountered by the US military during the Vietnam War. A record 450-plus ejections using M-B seats were made in 1967 alone, and its 3,000th life was saved in July 1971.

By mid-June 2014, a total of 7,444 lives had been saved as a result of the use of the UK company’s ejection seats. This includes 21 crew members who escaped stricken types in 2013, and from Beechcraft T-6, Boeing F/A-18E Super Hornet, Dassault Mirage 2000D, Israel Aerospace Industries Kfir, Nanchang A5, Panavia Tornado and Sepecat Jaguar combat and trainer aircraft so far this year.

The number of ejections recorded per year has decreased dramatically since its peak, with the 6,000th life saved in December 1990 and the 7,000th in June 2003. However, the pride of the Martin-Baker workforce is apparent immediately on entering its reception building, where single-sheet reports are displayed detailing recent equipment successes.

Today, there are more than 16,800 Martin-Baker ejection seats installed on 51 aircraft types for 88 operators around the globe, with more than 5,200 of this total on board US military assets. In its history, the company has now delivered more than 85,000 seats for around 200 different models.
According to its own data, 54.3% of all ejection seats in global service are M-B products. Its closest rivals are United Technologies Aerospace, with almost 5,200 – primarily in the Boeing F-15 and Lockheed Martin F-16 – Russia’s Zvezda, at nearly 4,400, and China’s CATIC, at more than 1,700.

“We’ve not lost an ejection seat competition since 1973,” says joint managing director and technical director James Martin. “We know we’ll be technically superior – what is important is the price.”

The company has a workforce of roughly 700 people at its main site, plus around 50 at Chalgrove in Oxfordshire – the site of its pyrotechnics and test activities.

In the fighter category, Martin-Baker seats are installed on the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon, Lockheed F-35 and Saab Gripen, plus the Hindustan Aeronautics-built Tejas and Pakistan Aeronautical Complex-produced JF-17.

Training types equipped include the Alenia Aermacchi M-346, BAE Systems Hawk, Boeing T-45, Dassault/Dornier Alpha Jet, Hindustan Aeronautics HJT-36 Sitara, Korea Aerospace Industries T-50 and Northrop F-5 and T-38. In mid-June, the company completed a programme to install US16T seats in 456 of the latter type. The activity – which introduced the capability for crews to escape an incident even while stationary on the ground – was managed from Martin-Baker America’s Johnstown, Pennsylvania site. Established in 2001, this has around 140 employees.

Multiple primary trainers also use M-B products, including the Beechcraft T-6, Embraer EMB-314 Super Tucano and Pilatus PC-21. Notably, its new lightweight Mk 17 seat is being offered for elementary/basic trainers, such as the Grob Aircraft G120TP. The system can be operated at ground level from a forward speed of 60kt (111km/h).
According to director of business development and marketing Andrew Martin, the low-cost counter-insurgency aircraft market also offers a promising business opportunity. The company has supplied US16T seats for the Textron AirLand Scorpion prototype, which will be making its debut international appearance in the UK during July, and the firm is also eyeing the potential to equip the armed AirTractor AT-802U.

All eyes will be on the F-35B Joint Strike Fighter as the type makes its first high-profile appearances at the Royal International Air Tattoo and Farnborough air show. As with the programme’s other two variants, its pilot’s last line of defence is the US16E ejection seat.

M-B in mid-June delivered its 150th seat for the F-35, from a projected programme total of more than 3,000 aircraft.

Developed and tested over the course of more than a decade with the involvement of 43 UK companies as suppliers, the US16E has posed multiple technological challenges, with an ejection speed requirement of 0-600kt.

The single design must accommodate the full US pilot weight range, from an unclothed 46.7-113kg (103-250lb), plus personal equipment. This requires three different seat tilt positions and a vertical adjustment function of up to 7.5in.

With F-35 pilots to use a helmet-mounted display to receive their primary flight information, the seat manufacturer has also been required to create a system which is capable of protecting an ejectee’s neck when exiting the aircraft. The solution involves a trio of airbags, activated behind and to either side of the neck.

The US16E also uses a “fifth-generation” four-point harness design already supplied for the NATO Flying Training in Canada programme’s Hawks, plus passive arm and leg restraints. An MWARS [Martin-Baker water-activated release system] automatic activation function was also mandated, to prevent a pilot from drowning if unconscious when landing in water. A new electronics unit contained within the harness release mechanism must detect a set level of salinity before activation.

“We are now looking to deploy that into many other platforms,” says engineering director Robert Martin, with interest having already come from Germany, Singapore and Taiwan.

“We’re at the limit of how fast you can put a person on a parachute,” he says. As a result, the US16E contains an in-seat sequencer – a computer which measures factors such as ejection speed and altitude, and optimises the escape by making physical loads as small as possible.

Martin-Baker’s introduction of such advances stems from its internal research and development spending. “We always invest in R&D, and try to be three or four years ahead of the game,” says James Martin. This represents a commitment worth around £10 million ($17 million) per year by the family-owned company.

Production totalled 850 ejection seats in 2013, and multiple future prospects exist to sustain or expand this. A leading opportunity is the USAF’s planned T-X trainer acquisition to replace the T-38, with Martin-Baker offering a design similar to its current US16T seat for all candidate types.

Further ahead, the company will seek to be involved as the USAF and US Navy define their survival system needs for a future “sixth-generation” fighter, and also for the former’s future long-range strike bomber.

The retrofit business, such as that which led to the installation of more than 900 new seats in the USAF’s T-38s, is another target. “We are positioning ourselves now to develop a retrofit for the [United Technologies] ACES II in the F-15 and F-16,” says Andrew Martin. Maintenance, repair and overhaul business is also likely to increase, as air forces contract some flight training services out to industry.
Now accounting for 10-15% of the company’s annual turnover, the design and production of crashworthy seats for helicopters like the Sikorsky S-92 and UH-60M Black Hawk is another potential area of growth.

Another goal is to supply new indigenous fighter programmes in nations like India, Japan, South Korea and Turkey, where M-B already has strong links as a supplier.

“We’re very bullish about the future of the company – and escape systems,” says Andrew Martin.

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## nomi007

Good news for PAF:

According to Alan warne's PAF to likely to get UAE mirage 2000-9 when UAE get additional 31 f-16s block-61.
Mirage-2000-9 is modern variant of Mirage family


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## Stealth

nomi007 said:


> Good news for PAF:
> 
> According to Alan warne's PAF to likely to get UAE mirage 2000-9 when UAE get additional *31 f-16s block-61*.
> Mirage-2000-9 is modern variant of Mirage family



Block 61 ???? from whom approval :S ?


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## Kompromat

Stealth said:


> Block 61 ???? from whom approval :S ?



UAE is buying extra Desert Falcons. The Mirage-2000s would be available.

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## Stealth

Aeronaut said:


> UAE is buying extra Desert Falcons. The Mirage-2000s would be available.



oh sorry miss interpretation .... well what is the actual cost of Block 61? comparing with PAF Block 52 ?


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## Jungibaaz

Aeronaut said:


> UAE is buying extra Desert Falcons. The Mirage-2000s would be available.



These Block 61 F-16's, I wonder what exactly they're meant to be, it seems the UAE desperately wants them in time for Iran, without having to wait for F-35.

They'll probably be using SABR AESA upgrade which I understand is compatible with the current Block 60, if anything it's even more compatible, lightweight too. I wonder if this designation has anything to do with those F-16V's.


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## thrilainmanila

as much as i like the idea of seeing the M2009 with the PAF. I think it would be sensible going for F-16s, the M2009 should have been inducted 10 years ago imo. if PAF say inducts 40 of them its going to cost something like over 2 billion USD. and what about spare parts and the infrastructure?? will france provide pakistan with such items. I don't really see the logic behind such a purchase.


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## Kompromat

Jungibaaz said:


> These Block 61 F-16's, I wonder what exactly they're meant to be, it seems the UAE desperately wants them in time for Iran, without having to wait for F-35.
> 
> They'll probably be using SABR AESA upgrade which I understand is compatible with the current Block 60, if anything it's even more compatible, lightweight too. I wonder if this designation has anything to do with those F-16V's.



At this moment i can only say that this Block-61 is similar to what LM offered to the Indians.

SABR and V are 'retrofits' just like our ROSE program for the Mirages.


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## Chak Bamu

M2K would be a huge distraction. On paper this could be a good thing, since much of our fleet is old and fast becoming a liability. But do we have the money and the resources to integrate them in our fleet? Unless we get an unbelievable deal, we should not consider it.

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## 09ee97

So, PAF is buying 68 Mirage 2000-9 from UAE, why don't we start focussing on something like Rafale or Typhoon or F-35? Instead of buying 68 Mirage 2000-9, Don't you think it will be better to get 5-6 latest generation fighters which will make PAF a little better technology wise?


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## Dazzler

09ee97 said:


> So, PAF is buying 68 Mirage 2000-9 from UAE, why don't we start focussing on something like Rafale or Typhoon or F-35? Instead of buying 68 Mirage 2000-9, Don't you think it will be better to get 5-6 latest generation fighters which will make PAF a little better technology wise?



no one is buying m2000s, they r not needed, focus is on jf17 and f-16 inventory with mods and bvr. one more option is on the table, a new hightech fighter. could b fc20 or j31

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## F-16 Viper

09ee97 said:


> So, PAF is buying 68 Mirage 2000-9 from UAE, why don't we start focussing on something like Rafale or Typhoon or F-35? Instead of buying 68 Mirage 2000-9, Don't you think it will be better to get 5-6 latest generation fighters which will make PAF a little better technology wise?


5th generations fighters are quite expensive, in this region Pakistan mainly focuses India, PAF don't need a 5th generation stealth fighter, because India don't have it. But in case we really need a stealth fighter J-31 is a good option for PAF. But as for now we don't need such fighters. Mirage 2000-9 is a good fighter it will greatly enhance PAF's capability.
Check this video it will change your mind for mirage:




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152577001109919

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## fatman17



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## Donatello

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 39307



A description would be helpful...


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## fatman17

Donatello said:


> A description would be helpful...


 
looks like a HUD.




Harvard Basic Trainer.
"legend has it that pilots who completed their basic trainer on the Howard were somehow 'more proficient' that pilots who completed their training on the T-37." these trainers were colored 'bright yellow'.

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## fatman17

what could have been......
A-7 Corsair - FGA

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## VCheng

fatman17 said:


> looks like a HUD.
> 
> View attachment 39839
> Howard Basic Trainer.
> "legend has it that pilots who completed their basic trainer on the Howard were somehow 'more proficient' that pilots who completed their training on the T-37." these trainers were colored 'bright yellow'.



Not "Howard". T-6 Texan / *Harvard *trainer:

North American T-6 Texan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## fatman17

VCheng said:


> Not "Howard". T-6 Texan / *Harvard *trainer:
> 
> North American T-6 Texan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


 
my bad......


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## Jf Thunder

Shahrukh Saleem Qureshi said:


> 5th generations fighters are quite expensive, in this region Pakistan mainly focuses India, PAF don't need a 5th generation stealth fighter, because India don't have it. But in case we really need a stealth fighter J-31 is a good option for PAF. But as for now we don't need such fighters. Mirage 2000-9 is a good fighter it will greatly enhance PAF's capability.
> Check this video it will change your mind for mirage:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152577001109919


these Air To Air refueling pods look ugly,at least we should integrate retractable ones for our Jf Thunders?


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## elitepilot09

Jf Thunder said:


> these Air To Air refueling pods look ugly,at least we should integrate retractable ones for our Jf Thunders?



Too expensive.


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## Jf Thunder

elitepilot09 said:


> Too expensive.


dude, refueling pods are expensive?


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## elitepilot09

Jf Thunder said:


> dude, refueling pods are expensive?



Yes, to implement a mechanically retractable refueling *PROBE* is very costly and in most instances would also require a redesigning of the aircraft's fuselage. Not to mention that Pakistan simply does not have the expertise yet. I cant obviously tell you exactly how much it will cost to add such a feature (simply cause I don't know) but I will remind you that in any circumstance, PAF is trying to market this aircraft as a low budget 4th gen alternative. Therefore any cost which we can save, we must. Whether it is cosmetically "ugly" as you say has no bearing on the aircraft performance minus fractional virtually non-existent drag.

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## shaheenmissile

People harp so much about BVR. But what good they are? 120 Km stated range means the missile can hit a stationary target while traveling in a straight line at 120Km range.


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## Jf Thunder

elitepilot09 said:


> Yes, to implement a mechanically retractable refueling *PROBE* is very costly and in most instances would also require a redesigning of the aircraft's fuselage. Not to mention that Pakistan simply does not have the expertise yet. I cant obviously tell you exactly how much it will cost to add such a feature (simply cause I don't know) but I will remind you that in any circumstance, PAF is trying to market this aircraft as a low budget 4th gen alternative. Therefore any cost which we can save, we must. Whether it is cosmetically "ugly" as you say has no bearing on the aircraft performance minus fractional virtually non-existent drag.


okay


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## Dazzler

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 39307


jft HUD showing bingo fuel or simply "low" fuel.

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## fatman17

*3 air commodores promoted to rank of AVM *
July 23, 2014, 7:17 pm






For news details visit : 3 air commodores promoted to rank of AVM

For news details Read on : 3 air commodores promoted to rank of AVM
ISLAMABAD- Government of Pakistan has promoted Air Commodore Shahid Niaz, Air Commodore Asim Zaheer and Air Commodore Ahmar Shahzad to the rank of Air Vice Marshal.
Air Vice Marshal Shahid Niaz was commissioned in Pakistan Air Force in January, 1984 in Engineering Branch. During his illustrious career, he has commanded an Electronics Wing. In his staff appointments he has served as Assistant Chief of the Air Staff (Electronics Engineering) and Assistant Chief of the Air Staff (Networks). He is a graduate of National Defence University (NDU) and holds a Master’s degree in National Security and War Studies from NDU and MS in Signal Processing from China. He is also a recipient of Sitara-i-Imtiaz (Military).

Air Vice Marshal Asim Zaheer was commissioned in Pakistan Air Force in November, 1984 in GD (P) Branch. During his illustrious career, he has commanded a Fighter Squadron and an Operational Air Base. In his staff appointments he has served as Chief Project Director (CPD) Falcon at Air Headquarters Peshawar. He has also served as Air Attaché to France. He is a graduate of Combat Commanders’ School, Armed Forces War College and German General Staff College. He holds a Master’s degree in War Studies. He is also a recipient of Sitara-i-Imtiaz (Military) and Tamgha-i-Basalat.

Air Vice Marshal Ahmar Shahzad was commissioned in Pakistan Air Force in November, 1984 in GD (P) Branch. During his illustrious career, he has commanded a Fighter Squadron and an Operational Air Base. In his staff appointments he has served as Chief Project Director (CPD) Falcon at Air Headquarters Peshawar. He has also served as Air Attaché to USA. He is a graduate of Combat Commanders’ School, Armed Forces War College and Command & Staff College UK. He holds a Master’s degree in War Studies (AFWC) and a Master’s degree in Defence Studies (UK). He is a recipient of Tamgha-i-Imtiaz (Military) and Legion of Merit (USA).

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## fatman17

B-57 with special nose assembly?

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## Windjammer

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 40491
> B-57 with special nose assembly?


It's only a model sir.

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## fatman17

Windjammer said:


> It's only a model sir.


 
boy i'm getting old now!!!

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## fatman17

PAF Recruitment ad ~c1976





~c1973





~C1971. check out the salaries.


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## fatman17

Harvard T-6G at Risalpur




Harvard T-6G - 1947-1974

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## sabih hussain

WebMaster said:


> If you go to PAF Faisal, you will see a junked Mi-24 hind, in the far backyard. I have it in the gallery. Check it out. PA operated them for sometime, but lack of spares leaded them to be unoperatable.


can you tell the exact location of it in the Faisal base
May be i would be able to see it


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## fatman17

sabih hussain said:


> can you tell the exact location of it in the Faisal base
> May be i would be able to see it


 
the faisal junkyard is next to the PAF museum


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## fatman17

*DEFENCE NOTES
'TAIL CHOPPERS' - BIRTH OF A LEGEND:
NO 14 SQUADRON-S VIGIL IN INDO-PAK WAR 1965
Group Captain SM HALI gives a thrilling account of PAF-s 14 Squadron during 1965*

*W*hen War broke out in 1965, East Pakistan had only a solitary squadron of 12 F-86F aircraft at Dhaka to meet its air defence requirements. Since offensive operations were not contemplated from the East, it was expected that No 14 Squadron alone would be sufficient to counter the limited threat envisaged.

No 14 Squadron based at Tezgaon on the outskirts of Dhaka, had maintained a constant vigil of air defence alert right since the Rann of Kutch crisis in April, 1965. The limited effort available and long spells of watchfulness had taken their toll in fatigue and exhaustion. The prevailing unsafe conditions further aggravated the situation. The single airfield had inadequate dispersal. Absence of proper aircraft protective pens, sand bags, camouflage nets and operational readiness platforms, non-existence of airfield fencing and ground defence arrangements must have given the Station Commander Group Captain Ghulam Haider, nightmares. The 14 Squadron aircraft remained in the open while the pilots had to be accommodated in tents. Yet the Station Commander set about making preparations. A few aircraft decoys were placed at strategic locations. Hessain cloth was acquired and utilizing the natural camouflage of East Pakistan, some degree of concealment and deception was achieved.

Tezgaon airfield was defended by only one battery of ack ack. Little or no early warning of incoming raids was possible. There was a solitary and out-dated Marconi radar at Kurmitola 20 kilometers north of Dhaka. It was virtually useless as enemy aircraft could approach from any direction and not be detected at low level. There was no other reporting organization against low level raids.

It was in this scenario that No 14 Squadron took up its vigil to guard the aerial frontiers of East Pakistan. Prior to 1 September, there had been no formal indication of the impending operations. On 2 September, Air Headquarters ordered a special alert and issued instructions for dispersal and camouflage. From this date, two aircraft were flown twice daily on Combat Air Patrol (CAP) missions. On 4 September an aircraft was lost due to a bird hit. The pilot ejected safely but the squadron strength was reduced to 11 aircraft.

When War ultimately broke out on 6 September, No 14 Squadron was ordered to be ready for immediate strikes. CAP missions were flown over Dhaka all day. When PAF launched its airfield strike plan at dusk on 6 September, No 14 Squadron was asked to hold back because of the difficulty in synchronizing the strike timings owing to the one hour difference in local times between East and West Pakistan. Moreover, the Government wanted to wait and see. In case the situation remained quiet overnight in East Pakistan, it might prove possible to avoid an escalation of hostilities. This hope was short lived. IAF Canberras from Kalaikunda penetrated into East Pakistan-s airspace as deep as Dhaka during the night of 6/7 September, and dropped bombs at random without much effect in the way of damage of casualties.

IAF also launched a pre-dawn offensive on 7 September. Various targets in East Pakistan comprising the airfields at Chittagong, Jessore, Lalmunirhat, Shibgang, Thakurgaon and Kurmitola were attacked. Low clouds and the natural camouflage of East Pakistan caused the Indian aircraft to miss Tezgaon air field at Dhaka altogether. Instead they attacked Kurmitola, an airfield in the vicinity of Dhaka. Here, a barrack was hit with rockets resulting in two casualties-one Sergeant AR Choudhry, and a child.

Two Sabres were scrambled to intercept the enemy. They failed to catch up with them but Flight Lieutenant ATM Aziz did not return from the mission. Later the wreckage of his Sabre was discovered 25 kilometers north of Dhaka. It indicated no damage from enemy action but the cause of the accident was never established. No 14 Squadron was now down to 10 aircraft.

*Strike at Kalaikunda*
The night and pre-dawn raids of IAF allowed the PAF C-in-C to retaliate. PAF-s strike against Kalaikunda was a totally different story. After the mission order had been received at about 6 a.m. on 7 September, five pilots (Flight Lieutenants Haleem, Baseer, Tariq Habib Khan and Flying Officer Afzal Khan) led by their Squadron Commander, Squadron Leader Shabbir Hussain Syed were briefed for a low level mission involving a distance of nearly 300 kilometers from Dhaka. Because of the necessity to fly low all the way, the Sabres were required to carry their full load of external fuel in two 120 and two 200- gallon drop tanks per aircraft, leaving only their 0.5 inch machine-guns available for the attack.

Despite poor visibility the Sabre formation reached its target and as the No 14 Squadron pilots pulled up to commence their attack, it was obvious that complete surprise had been achieved. There was no anti-aircraft fire and no fewer than 14 Canberras were lined up wing-tip to wing-tip on the tarmac as though for peacetime review. The Indians had probably never imagined that such a small force could react with such speed and audacity against odds so heavily weighted against it, and that, too, at the very limits of its reach into Indian territory.

Each Sabre put in two passes over the airfield and by the time they exited, Kalaikunda was engulfed in smoke and flames. The mission landed back safely at 0744 a.m., claiming 10 Canberras destroyed and five damaged along with two Hunters damaged. A remarkable achievement by only five aircraft.

While the strike had been airborne, large numbers of IAF aircraft had been plotted over Jessore, heading towards Dhaka. Several of the six remaining Sabres on the airfield were scrambled for interception. No contact, however, was made with the IAF aircraft, which headed back across the Indian border. The degree of the air defence effort at Dhaka can be illustrated by the fact that one pilot alone-Flight Lieutenant Farooq F Khan- was scrambled five times in his Sabre in the first two hours after daybreak on 7 September. At no time, however, did he see an enemy aircraft.

*A Second Attack on Kalaikunda*
To complete the destruction of Kalaikunda, a second raid was ordered at 10:30 a.m. This time Flight Lieutenant Haleem led a formation of four Sabres. Visibility was still very bad when they reached the target but now the enemy was prepared. A barrage of anti-aircraft fire greeted them and nine Hunters pounced on them. The Sabres split in two pairs. One continued the attack while the others turned to engage the Hunters.

Flight Lieutenant Tariq Habib, leading the second pair asked his No 2 Flying Officer Afzal Khan to jettison his fuel tanks to prepare for battle but he was shot down before he could do so. Flight Lieutenant Tariq Habib in the meantime jettisoned three of his tanks, but the fourth hung up and with this handicap he was cornered by 3 Hunters for a good ten minutes. With remarkable coolness and presence of mind, he twisted and turned at low level and though his aircraft got badly damaged, he managed to shake them off and returned safely to Dhaka. For his courage and skill in fighting his way clear of the larger and better equipped enemy force, Tariq Habib was awarded a well-deserved Sitara-e-Jurat. His Squadron Commander, Squadron Leader Shabbir Hussain Syed was also decorated with Sitara-e-Jurat for his outstanding leadership. No 14 Squadron earned the nickname of Tail Choppers, alluding to the swath of bullets they used at Kalaikunda to cut through the tails of IAF-s neatly lined up Canberras. In West Pakistan, PAF had cut off the head of the Indian Air Force, and in their two sorties on 7 September, the pilots of No 14 Squadron did an equally good job with the tail.

In its second raid, No 14 Squadron claimed 4 to 6 Canberras destroyed but lost one pilot and one Sabre. Flight Lieutenant Tariq Habib-s aircraft also could not be recovered for want of spares. The squadron strength was now reduced to 8 but not their zeal to attack the enemy. It was only bad weather and some political considerations that brought a lull in their operations.

*Other Raids*
On 10 September, No 14 Squadron struck IAF Base Baghdogra with 4 Sabres. On 14 September it attacked Barrackpore and Agartala. Due to enemy-s retreat to deeper bases, the squadron-s score in these strikes was limited to 5 transport aircraft, 2 fighters, 1 Canberra and a helicopter.

These were its last strike missions as it was considered prudent to conserve the depleted strength of No 14 Squadron specially since the enemy never showed its face again on the eastern front for the rest of the war.

*Cumulative Effect*
No 14 Squadron-s offensive on 7 September was a crucial blow to IAF morale. The fearless and timely action of this plucky squadron caused the enemy to withdraw the bulk of its aircraft to bases in the rear, thus ensuring by default, the comparative security of East Pakistan. This stirring tale of valour and stoic defiance by 14 Squadron was to have a second, even more glorious chapter- to be written by the blood and grit of its men, in another far grimmer war-in December, 1971.

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## fatman17

DEFENCE NOTES 
PAF’S GALLANT CHRISTIAN HEROES
CARRY QUAID’S MESSAGE

‘We are starting with the fundamental principle that we are all citizens and equal citizens of one state. No matter what is his colour, caste or creed is first, second and last a citizen of this state with equal rights, privileges and obligations....

Pakistan will provide its minorities an ample field for the outlet of their genius and they should come forward and play their role as true citizens in making Pakistan one of the greatest nations....’
--Quaid-e-Azam--

The Quaid’s message conveyed hope as well as a challenge. The minorities of Pakistan took up the challenge boldly. The Christians who are a majority amongst the minorities of Pakistan have played a leading role in this regard. They have excelled in every field of life - be it the Armed Forces, the Civil Services, the Judiciary, Education, Sports or the noble profession of the healing and caring for the sick and wounded.
Pakistan Air Force had the pleasant and proud privilege of receiving a very effective contribution from its Christian members. It is, therefore, befitting that we pay our tributes to them on the auspicious Christmas day which happily coincides with the Quaid’s birth anniversary.

Leading the forefront in order of chronology is Air Vice Marshal Eric Gordon Hall. Born in 1922, the young Eric migrated to British India from Burma after it was occupied by the Japanese in 1942. Having lost his father, an actively serving army officer in the war, young Eric enlisted in the ranks of the Royal Air Force and within weeks his potential was recognized and in December, 1943 he was selected for the officer cadre and was commissioned as a pilot. For the remaining period of the war he saw active duty with flying colours. With the partition of the Sub-Continent in 1947, Flying Officer Eric G Hall opted for Pakistan and was initially posted to Risalpur to help train and build up Pakistan Air Force. Through his vision, dedication and hard work, Eric rose to the prestigious rank of Air Vice Marshal and the Deputy Chief of Air Staff and Chief of Staff, PAF. During his service tenure he commanded a number of PAF Bases and also served as the Commandant of PAF Staff College, and Defence and Air Attache’ in USA.



Eric Hall’s finest hour came in 1965 when as a Group Captain he was commanding the air transport Base at Chaklala. With war being imminent, he was conscious of PAF’s handicap of the lack of heavy bombers. Eric Hall set up to fill this gap. He struck upon the unique idea of converting PAF’s C-130s to the role of ‘Heavy Bombers’. With some modifications these were made capable of carrying upto 20,000 lbs of bombs. Having conducted trials to prove the efficacy of the use of C-130s in this hitherto novel and innovative role, the Group Captain volunteered to lead the first bombing mission that happened to be over Kathua bridge, on 11 September 1965. This was a daring move and one of the finest examples of a commander leading from the cockpit. The mission was not only fraught with danger but the totally unarmed C-130 was also highly vulnerable to enemy action. But the success of this mission that was unique in the history of flying prompted the higher command to authorize thirteen more bombing missions on the C-130 including the precision bombing of Indian heavy guns at Atari on the banks of BRB Canal. The success of all these missions proved that the Air Vice Marshal had hit the bull’s eye it his innovative idea. For his valour and vision, Eric G Hall was awarded Sitara-e-Jurat in 1965.

After a long heroic life he breathed his last on June 17, 1998 in Maryland USA, where he had settled after his retirement in 1975.



Air Commodore Nazir Latif, who was born in 1927 joined the 8th GD pilot’s course but because of his high standard in flying, was upgraded to the 7th GD (P) course and graduated in 1950.

Just prior to the 1965 War, as a Wing Commander, Nazir Latif commanded a Bomber Wing. Under his able command, the bomber wing had been well prepared and well trained to undertake daring but accurate bombing missions deep inside the enemy territory. Wing Commander Nazir Latif led the most challenging raids including the successful attack on Ambala which was deep inside the Indian territory and was believed to be defended by batteries of Soviet-supplied SA-2 Surface to Air Missiles. On two occasions, his aircraft was hit by anti-aircraft guns but he flew back his aircraft and landed safely after pressing home his attacks accurately. For his exceptional flying skill and valour the Government of Pakistan conferred the Sitara-e-Jurat on him.

In 1971 too, while commanding PAF Base at Masroor, he actively participated in the war and flew numerous daring bombing missions. During the course of his service, he commanded three different fighter and bomber wings and two Bases. He also served as Director of Operations and Plans at the Air Headquarters. After a long and meritorious service, he retired in 1972. He is currently serving as Director Operations in a Charter Air Service in the Middle East.



Wing Commander Mervyn Leslie Middlecoat was another outstanding pilot who deserves special mention. He was a brilliant officer right from the beginning. On his graduation with the 16th GD (P) course in 1954, he was awarded the trophy for the best performance in Ground Subjects.

Soft spoken and mild mannered, Middlecoat was the epitome of an officer and a gentleman besides being an outstanding pilot. Flying different aircraft in his service career, he came to master the F-104 Starfighter.

He was commanding No 9 Squadron during the 1965 War and believed in leading from the front. He kept the morale of the Squadron very high and guided his pilots in a highly professional manner. For his leadership and devotion to duty, Squadron Leader Middlecoat was awarded the Sitara-i-Jurat in 1965.

On the outbreak of war on 3 December 1971, Wing Commander Mervyn. L. Middlecoat was on a training visit abroad. He returned to Pakistan immediately and joined operations with such zeal and keen interest that he inspired all squadron pilots. The day after his arrival he was detailed on a strike mission to the heavily defended Jamnagar airfield. While returning after the successful mission he was engaged by 2 enemy MiG-21s. In the encounter his aircraft was hit by an enemy missile. He was heard to be ejecting in Indian territory and was officially declared ‘missing in action’ and later ‘presumed dead’. For his devotion to duty, determination and courage, he was awarded a Bar to the Sitara-i-Jurat.



Cecil Chaudhry, the son of Faustian Elmer Chaudhry, the famous Chief Photographer of Pakistan Times, Lahore, was born in 1941. His interest in aircraft and flying brought him to the PAF and he graduated in 1960. He soon established himself professionally and in 1965 was working as Flight Commander (Training) under the renowned Squadron Leader Sarfraz Rafiqui. When war broke out on 6 September, 1965, Cecil busied himself flying numerous Close Support missions to ward off the Indian ground attack against Lahore and Sialkot. He was detailed to fly a dusk strike mission against Halwara under the command of Squadron Leader Rafiqui. There were unavoidable delays in their take-off and Halwara got forewarned because of the successful PAF strike against Pathankot. When Rafiqui, Yunus and Cecil reached their target Halwara, they were intercepted by numerous Hunter aircraft of the Indian Air Force. During the engagement, after shooting down one Indian Hunter, Rafiqui’s guns jammed and he handed over the lead to Cecil. The three fought bravely against heavy odds but Rafiqui and Yunus were shot down while Cecil managed to return safely after shooting down a Hunter. The loss of his mentor Rafiqui and friend Yunus enraged Cecil and he fought the rest of the war aggressively and with determination. For his acts of courage, dedication and professional ability, Cecil received the Sitara-i-Jurat.

During the 1971 war also Cecil, by now a Squadron Leader, fought with valour. On 7 December, during his second mission of the day over Zafarwal-Shakargarh sector, Cecil’s aircraft was hit by ground fire and badly damaged. He had to eject in enemy territory but he managed to make good his escape and reached Sargodha base safely. He continued to fight valiantly despite fractured ribs and exacted his revenue on 11 December, when he managed to shoot down an Indian SU-7 fighter right over the area where he had lost his aircraft.

During the course of his service, Cecil commanded the prestigious No 9 Squadron and the Combat Commander’s School PAF. He retired in 1986 in the rank of Group Captain. Not one to sit idle, he took time to educate himself and subsequently became the Principal at St. Anthony’s School at Lahore. He continues to turn out scores of motivated young men who are bubbling with zeal and enthusiasm to serve their country with dedication, pride and honour.

Squadron Leader William Desmond Harney, a Navigator of exceptional courage and dedication to duty needs special mention.

Born in Chittagong in 1937, after receiving his early schooling at St. Placids, W.D. Harney joined PAF Academy in 1957 and graduated in 1960.

In 1965, when war broke out, W.D. Harney was posted as Navigator in a Bomber Squadron. During the war, inspite of a hand injury, he voluntarily undertook 14 bombing missions and especially the most hazardous ones to Adampur, Halwara, Jodhpur, Pathankot and Ambala. In all the missions, he excelled in leadership, courage and devotion to duty. His mission-planning and execution of the missions was so meticulous that despite heavy odds, he always reached his targets and contributed significantly to the accuracy of the attacks. For his display of extreme courage and professionalism, W.D. Harney was awarded the Sitara-i-Jurat.

Squadron Leader W.D. Harney participated wholeheartedly in the 1971 war also and undertook a number of daring missions. He retired in 1974 and decided to settle in Australia where he had gone to attend to his ailing father.



Squadron Leader Peter Christy was a jolly, hard working and dedicated officer. He served as a B-57 Navigator and flew a number of successful operational missions in 1965. In 1971, Peter Christy was on deputation to PIA when he himself volunteered to return to PAF for war duties. He displayed great keenness to fly, and inspite of overwhelming family obligations and responsibilities he was always willing to take on any mission at any odd hour of the day or night. His sense of humour under war conditions, his dedication to the cause of the country and his personal courage contributed immensely to the Squadron’s morale.

On 6th December, 1971 Squadron Leader Peter Christy was detailed as Navigator for a bombing mission to Jamnagar. He failed to return from the mission and was officially declared ‘missing in action’. For his personal example and complete devotion to duty, he was awarded Sitara-i-Jurat.

It is for paucity of space that only seven names have been dwelled upon in detail but the rank and file of PAF is full of names of Christian officers and men who have contributed significantly to the formation of PAF and later kept the national banner flying with courage, dedication and dignity. To name a few, ‘Edwin Nazirullah, Steve Joseph, James Jebb, Patric Callaghan, Stephen Israel, M.J. O’Brain, Springett and Game amongst the pioneering pilots with Leslie de’ Cruz the Navigator, Alfred Jagivan the Air Gunner, Marston the Armament Officer, Robert Ritchie, J.E. Lewis, H.J. Caldens, J.M. Octavious and H.W. Highland the Admin Officers and C.M. Revis the Education Officer among the pioneers. Later John Carrapiett and Saleem Gohar who fought valiantly in the Indo Pak Wars. Out of these, besides Eric Hall, Steve Joseph and M. J. O’Brain also rose to the rank of Air Vice Marshal and achieved the penultimate position in PAF and served as the Deputy Chief of Air Staff. Air Vice Marshal O’Brain also achieved a rare distinction as having been so far the only PAF Officer to serve as the Commandant of National Defence College.

It is interesting to note that out of a total of 70 Sitara-e-Jurats awarded to PAF officers in both the Wars, seven were won by Christian officers.

The tradition continues till today as the mantle is passed on to generation after generation of Christians in PAF who continue to give their best to PAF and their country as an embodiment to Quaid’s dream and message. 

The faces and the names of the men in blue
shall be ever-changing,
With each generation that will prevail in its time,
and then pass on into history.
But the courage and the honour 
of the Pakistan Air Force 
shall endure forever,
for they are its very heart and soul.

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## narcon

shaheenmissile said:


> People harp so much about BVR. But what good they are? 120 Km stated range means the missile can hit a *stationary target* while traveling in a straight line at 120Km range.



BVR is normally known as an Air to Air missile, what you mean by Stationary target?


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## nomi007



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## fatman17

Pakistan Air Force celebrates Independence Day 
Friday, August 15, 2014 

*
ISLAMABAD: The Pakistan Air Force joined hands with the nation to celebrate the Independence Day of the country with due fervour and dignity.*
The day commenced with offering of special prayers in mosques of Pakistan Air Force all over the country after the Fajar prayers. All airmen and civilian staff of Pakistan Air Force, assembled at their respective Bases, Units and Headquarters to sing Pakistan’s National Anthem. The flag hoisting ceremony was held at Air Headquarters, Islamabad. Air Vice Marshal Junaid Ahmed Siddiqui hoisted national flag and read out the air chief’s message of the day.
Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force, said in his message, “While drawing perpetual guidance from Quaid’s vision, Pakistan Air Force has made earnest efforts to modernise its fleet to meet the ever demanding challenges of the 21st Century. I feel great pride in reassuring you that the personnel of Pakistan Air Force are imbued with the unmatched spirit of sacrifice, devotion to duty and absolute commitment towards their sacred mission. May Allah Almighty guide our endeavours in fulfilling the onerous responsibility of responding to all national security challenges to our beloved motherland, in line with the wishes of the people of Pakistan!.”On the auspicious day of independence, similar ceremonies were also held at all PAF Air Commands, Air Bases and other establishments.


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## fatman17

Improved Security Measures Thwart Attack on Pakistani Airbases

Aug. 15, 2014 - 06:48PM | By USMAN ANSARI | Comments 
AA Pakistani security personnel arrive to take positions after an attack by militants in Quetta on two military airbases in southwestern Pakistan. (BANARAS KHAN/ / AFP)Filed Under

ISLAMABAD — An attack in the very early hours of Friday morning on two Pakistani air bases was thwarted largely due to improved security measures that show the military has learned lessons from previous attacks, say analysts.

Militants belonging to the Pakistan Taliban’s (TTP) Ghalib Mehsud faction’s suicide wing, the Fidayeen Islam, launched simultaneous attacks on the airbases of Khalid and Samungli near the provincial capital of Quetta in Balochistan.

Samungli is a Pakistan Air Force (PAF) base that shares a runway with Quetta International Airport, and Khalid is an Army aviation airbase that is 12 kilometers away.

Though the attackers, who are thought to have been of Uzbek origin, and some of the more feared operatives in or associated with the TTP, tried to storm the airbases using automatic weapons, grenades and rocket propelled grenades, they were beaten back.

Twelve were killed after gun battles with the defending police and security forces. Five suspected attackers have been apprehended.

Eleven of the defenders, who were from the Army, Air Force, Frontier Corps and Police, were injured.

Analyst, author and former Air Force pilot, Air Commodore Kaiser Tufail, says defenders learned their lesson from previous attacks.

“The security measures are based on several past experiences. The response was so swift that the intruders were stunned and shot in no time,” he said.

There had been “no damage to any asset whatsoever,” he said.

Analyst Haris Khan of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank says a dedicated base protection force is being raised.

The Air Force is “in the process of raising a contingent of 7,500 personnel for the elite Special Services Wing [SSW] to protect the air bases, but it will take time to build this force,” he said.

“The SSW was established after the creation of Air Force’s Strategic Command, which is the custodian of nuclear weapons for the PAF. The SSW is responsible for protecting these assets.”

Khan says the new dedicated base protection force was born out of experience from previous attacks.

“After the attack on PNS Mehran and PAF Faisal [in 2011] in Karachi, and PAF Kamra [in 2012] the high command of PAF decided that bases can’t be protected and defended by serving officers and airmen.

“Therefore, the SSW has been expanded from 1,500 troops to 7,500.”

Though the new force will be used to protect static airbases, Khan says it will still be part of the elite SSW and the rest of Pakistan’s special forces community.

“SSW personal go through similar training and doctrine of force implementation as the Pakistan Army’s Special Services Group. SSW personnel receive training at Special Operation School, Cherat for six to eight weeks,” he said.

Khan highlights that on this occasion the defenders did well even in the absence of the dedicated base protection force, as “none of the terrorists entered the bases” and that they were “eliminated outside the base perimeters, including one terrorist who was cutting through the barbed wire.”

However, he says some of the perimeter measures may need to be improved and a more robust barrier erected as the current walls and barbed wire are decades old. ■

Email: uansari@defensenews.com.

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## fatman17

TTP faction claims responsibility for attack on airbases in Quetta

By Syed Ali Shah

QUETTA: The Ghalib Mehsud faction of the outlawed Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan (TTP) claimed responsibility for the attack on the Samungli and Khalid airbases in Quetta in which 12 militants were killed by security forces.

Ghalib Mehsud is the leader of Fidayeen Islam which is the suicide wing of the proscribed TTP.

The number of dead militants involved in two coordinated attacks at Balochistan’s air bases reached 12, as two more dead bodies were found in Khalid airbase in Quetta.

Commander Southern Command, Lt. General Nasir Khan Janjua told reporters while visiting the location of the attack that six dead bodies were found in Khalid Air base and six were found in Samungli airbase. 


Nasir Khan Janjua talking to media. — Photo by author 

"They all seemed to be foreign nationals," he said.

Security forces thwarted the attack and also arrested one injured militant and shifted him to an unknown place for interrogation. 

Balochistan police chief Muhammad Umlaish told media representatives that forces had concluded the operation in Quetta.

The police chief moreover said that 11 security personnel were injured during the operation that lasted for more than four hours. All injured were being treated in the Civil Military Hospital in Quetta cantonment.

He said 11 rocket launchers were recovered from the Khalid airbase while a huge quantity of arms and ammunition was recovered from the Samungli airbase.



"All entry and exit points leading to the airport and airbases are being strictly guarded," Umlaish said.

Responding to a question, he said the militants were spotted instantly.

Moreover, the Inter-Services Public Relations (ISPR) in a statement said that the Samungli and Khalid airbases in Quetta have been cleared. 

Imran Qureshi, the Superintendent of Police moreover told Dawn that the operation was completed in the early hours of Friday.

Security forces also detained five suspects in a search operation conducted in connection with the attack targeting the Samungli airbase.

"Police are interrogating the suspects,” Qureshi said.

"All dead terrorists seem to be Uzbeks,” Home Minister Balochistan Sarfaraz Bugti told Dawn.

Khan Wasey, a spokesman for Frontier Corps, told Dawn that the attack had begun with the militants opening fire at the air base and hurling grenades.

Wasey said the attackers had also fired seven rockets that landed in the premises of the two airbases.

More than 20 huge explosions were heard during the operation, police said, adding that the blasts were followed by intense firing.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DNA tests of terrorists to be conducted

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Balochistan government has decided to conduct DNA tests of all 12 terrorists killed by security forces during two coordinated attacks at Khalid Air Base and Samungli Air Base in Quetta on Thursday night.

Razaq Cheema, the Quetta Police Chief told Dawn.com that senior doctors recieved body samples of dead terrorists at combined military hospital on Friday. 

"Within the next couple of days their body parts would be sent for DNA test," Cheema informed.

With regard to investigation of attacks, the Quetta police chief said that an investigation team comprising senior officers would be formed to probe into the attacks. 

"We will get support from intelligence agencies as well," he said.

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## Windjammer

*Alan Warnes* @warnesyworld · Aug 14
Imagine four Tornados and Typhoons doing that across London's Mall! During Battle of Britain Day. Then all the complaints...





*Alan Warnes* @warnesyworld · Aug 14
Hear Pak Independence Parade impressed last night. 4 F-16s and Mirages across ISB in darkness with full afterburners and spitting flares!

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## Thorough Pro

here you go

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## fatman17

Thorough Pro said:


> here you go


 
i can understand the night fly-past with after burners and flares but a mil-parade at night with poor flood-lights. then there is a security guard walking thru the parade ranks....what does that tell us....NS dosnt trust the armed forces.
independence day is a monumental affair which requires the same respect and honour. i guess times have changed.



Thorough Pro said:


> here you go


 
reminds me of the former tattoo shows at lahore fort at night not a independence day parade.

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## Thorough Pro

My post was with reference to Allan Warnes tweets, I am all in favour of total "show of force", 23rd March style parade, and I hate cowards, all of them.



fatman17 said:


> i can understand the night fly-past with after burners and flares but a mil-parade at night with poor flood-lights. then there is a security guard walking thru the parade ranks....what does that tell us....NS dosnt trust the armed forces.
> independence day is a monumental affair which requires the same respect and honour. i guess times have changed.
> 
> 
> 
> reminds me of the former tattoo shows at lahore fort at night not a independence day parade.

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## kaykay

Question to Pakistani friends here.
How many aircrafts make a sqd in PAF? like in India usually 21 aircrafts make a sqd (16 signal seated, 2 trainers, and 3 reserve) except MKI because trainers are not needed for mkis as they are twin seated already. its an honest question so pls don't troll.


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## fatman17

kaykay said:


> Question to Pakistani friends here.
> How many aircrafts make a sqd in PAF? like in India usually 21 aircrafts make a sqd (16 signal seated, 2 trainers, and 3 reserve) except MKI because trainers are not needed for mkis as they are twin seated already. its an honest question so pls don't troll.


 
it depends - 12, 14, 16, 18, 20. generally 16 or 18. for trg we have OCU squadrons.

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## Windjammer

PHOTO: AIR COMMODORE NASIR M BUTT

*This is a photograph from when I was 19 years old, in 1963. The gentleman in the image is my instructor, Flt Lt Chris Salwey, of the Royal Air Force. He was on an exchange posting with the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) and at the time, I had to undergo fighter conversion and operational training on the F-86 Sabre.*

In those days, basic flying training at PAF Academy, Risalpur used to be on a piston engine-driven propeller airplane called the T-6G. After graduation we had to undergo conversion training on jet engined aircraft on the T-33. I went on to have a forty year-career in the Air Force and I am a veteran of the 1965 war. I served as Defense Attache in the United States of America from 1988-1991 and I retired as an Air Commodore.

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## Basel

I have few questions i.e. Is there any exercise going on?? I saw 2 mirages flying very low and close, they don't fly like that usually and lead jet took sharp turn while other remain the course for while. also big turboprop planes were flying at night too, can't confirm which one C-130 or ZDK-03.

Is this due to situation in Islamabad?? PAF taking precautionary measures?

@Munir @Aeronaut @Windjammer


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## Windjammer

Basel said:


> I have few questions i.e. Is there any exercise going on?? I saw 2 mirages flying very low and close, they don't fly like that usually and lead jet took sharp turn while other remain the course for while. also big turboprop planes were flying at night too, can't confirm which one C-130 or ZDK-03.
> 
> Is this due to situation in Islamabad?? PAF taking precautionary measures?
> 
> @Munir @Aeronaut @Windjammer


Where did you see this.....Karachi i presume, I am not aware of any major exercise in progress however they always practice missions and what you said about Mirages is usualy the procedure when the come into land.

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## Umair Nawaz

Windjammer said:


> PHOTO: AIR COMMODORE NASIR M BUTT
> 
> *This is a photograph from when I was 19 years old, in 1963. The gentleman in the image is my instructor, Flt Lt Chris Salwey, of the Royal Air Force. He was on an exchange posting with the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) and at the time, I had to undergo fighter conversion and operational training on the F-86 Sabre.*
> 
> In those days, basic flying training at PAF Academy, Risalpur used to be on a piston engine-driven propeller airplane called the T-6G. After graduation we had to undergo conversion training on jet engined aircraft on the T-33. I went on to have a forty year-career in the Air Force and I am a veteran of the 1965 war. I served as Defense Attache in the United States of America from 1988-1991 and I retired as an Air Commodore.


is this yr information?


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## Informant

Windjammer said:


> PHOTO: AIR COMMODORE NASIR M BUTT
> 
> *This is a photograph from when I was 19 years old, in 1963. The gentleman in the image is my instructor, Flt Lt Chris Salwey, of the Royal Air Force. He was on an exchange posting with the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) and at the time, I had to undergo fighter conversion and operational training on the F-86 Sabre.*
> 
> In those days, basic flying training at PAF Academy, Risalpur used to be on a piston engine-driven propeller airplane called the T-6G. After graduation we had to undergo conversion training on jet engined aircraft on the T-33. I went on to have a forty year-career in the Air Force and I am a veteran of the 1965 war. I served as Defense Attache in the United States of America from 1988-1991 and I retired as an Air Commodore.



Could you dwelve a little into the efforts of 65? 

Thank you for your service.

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## nomi007

one more uav crash near hangu kpk 
samaa news


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## razgriz19

As long as they're UAV, its all good. they can be replaced.


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## Windjammer

Umair Nawaz said:


> is this yr information?


Do you think i'm 70 year old.

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## Umair Nawaz

Windjammer said:


> Do you think i'm 70 year old.


you will be surprised to know how senior i consider u......

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## Basel

Windjammer said:


> Where did you see this.....Karachi i presume, I am not aware of any major exercise in progress however they always practice missions and what you said about Mirages is usualy the procedure when the come into land.



Yes in Karachi, but when they come to land they fly in a line and far away while their landing gear down, these were flying like I had seen in 2002 & 2008 hostilities, no landing gear down very low and wing man was flying very close.

Off Topic: on ARY New few minutes ago Mubashir Luqman said that Indian army if firing on Kotri (Sindh) border, can anyone confirm that news???


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## fatman17

PAF TopGun

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## fatman17

F-6 on the side of a hill but where?

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## fatman17

USAF @ Skardu - WTF!

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## Shabi1

Windjammer said:


> Where did you see this.....Karachi i presume, I am not aware of any major exercise in progress however they always practice missions and what you said about Mirages is usualy the procedure when the come into land.




I've noticed F-7s flying CAP in 2 and 3 ship formations over central Karachi in past 4 days. Usually fighters dont fly over these areas. ZDK-03 AWACs have been taking off from PAF Base Faisal as well. Usually this base has P-3Cs and C-130s only.

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## syedali73

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 44703
> F-6 on the side of a hill but where?


The building in the background reads "Eukanuba IAMS", which manufactures pet food. The style of the buildings and the multi-story parking lot is what I have seen in the States, but not sure how F-6 would end up in States. I am not sure if Eukanuba IAMS has manufacturer plant(s) in Pakistan or China.


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## Shabi1

syedali73 said:


> The building in the background reads "Eukanuba IAMS", which manufactures pet food. The style of the buildings and the multi-story parking lot is what I have seen in the States, but not sure how F-6 would end up in States. I am not sure if Eukanuba IAMS has manufacturer plant(s) in Pakistan or China.



There is a MIG-19 painted in PAF colors at a museum outside Pakistan, forgot the country. This seems to be it.

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## syedali73

Shabi1 said:


> There is a MIG-19 painted in PAF colors at a museum outside Pakistan, forgot the country. This seems to be it.


Yes Sir, you are right. It's an ex-Polish Air Force MiG-19 painted in PAF markings by the Cerbaiola Museum-Italy. Following is the picture from the other side of the hill.






Looks like @nomi007 has posted it earlier here: Mirage, F-7PG and other combat aircrafts | Page 17

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## VCheng

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 45191
> 
> USAF @ Skardu - WTF!




What do you mean by "WTF"?

This photo was taken in Skardu on September 24, 2010, of a C-17 Globemaster III from the 816th Expeditionary Airlift Squadron, *delivering 16 pallets of flour in support of flood relief efforts.* The 816th EAS was also flying displaced people out from Skardu to Chaklala.

Do you have a problem with that?

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## fatman17

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> What do you mean by "WTF"?
> 
> This photo was taken in Skardu on September 24, 2010, of a C-17 Globemaster III from the 816th Expeditionary Airlift Squadron, *delivering 16 pallets of flour in support of flood relief efforts.* The 816th EAS was also flying displaced people out from Skardu to Chaklala.
> 
> Do you have a problem with that?


 
i have no issues just that we dont see C-17s in this area very often....a belated thanks for the flour.

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## Windjammer

*
Even in the Fifties, we were showing Indians how it's done.*

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## fatman17

*TURKISH FIRM MODERNIZES PAKISTAN'S JETS*

AA
Published : 01.09.2014 23:47:34





ANKARA — Turkish Aerospace Industries has modernized the last four of Pakistan's F-16 fighter jets, completing a five-year contract. The remaining four aircraft will be handed over in a ceremony in Ankara on Tuesday. The company, known by the acronym TUSAŞ, signed a contract with Pakistan's Ministry of Defense in 2009. Under the program, Turkish technicians were to upgrade and test 41 aircraft. The first of the planes were delivered two years ago. TUSAŞ began co-producing U.S.-designed F-16s for the Turkish Air Force in 1984 and is one of the world's main aerospace companies involved in F-16 manufacture and modernization.

It has also upgraded the Royal Jordanian Air Force's F-16s. In a related development, fighter jets from Turkey and Pakistan joined a joint military exercise in central Turkey's Konya that started yesterday. The exercise is part of Turkey's year-long Anatolian Eagle exercise that brings together fighter jet pilots from different countries.


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## SekrutYakhni

As mentioned few months ago -

Pak Air force should invest heavily in drone based technology.

Automated drones (much bigger than what we see) capable of aerial refueling. These drones have short nozzles and the fighter plane is capable to takeover the drone functions (automated) at a certain proximity via software integration. This will ensure smooth air to air refueling while minimizing the risk and the cost.

I think this tech makes sense and can be a great money maker for PAF.

Signal blocking/interception remains a challenge.


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## PakEye

saad445566 said:


> As mentioned few months ago -
> 
> Pak Air force should invest heavily in drone based technology.
> 
> Automated drones (much bigger than what we see) capable of aerial refueling. These drones have short nozzles and the fighter plane is capable to takeover the drone functions (automated) at a certain proximity via software integration. This will ensure smooth air to air refueling while minimizing the risk and the cost.
> 
> I think this tech makes sense and can be a great money maker for PAF.
> 
> Signal blocking/interception remains a challenge.



Reference web address please ???


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## SekrutYakhni

pakeye said:


> Reference web address please ???



Babe its a thread I posted here few months ago. 

Don't have enough printed $$$ in my pocket to go back and find it for you.

You can search.


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## PakEye

saad445566 said:


> Babe its a thread I posted here few months ago.
> 
> Don't have enough printed $$$ in my pocket to go back and find it for you.
> 
> You can search.


Few Months ???
name of the month if your memory is live !!!


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## Windjammer

The bird cutter antennas are obvious, but i guess others include more of structural and avionics upgrades in the package. 
@Oscar @fatman17 @Manticore

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## SQ8

Windjammer said:


> The bird cutter antennas are obvious, but i guess others include more of structural and avionics upgrades in the package.
> @Oscar @fatman17 @Manticore



A lot of the upgrades are replacement of older components, and generally less of bolting on new pieces. That is because there are structural limitations that come with the older F-16s. Which is why despite the general perception that the MLU takes the older B-15s to B-52 level.. the latter is still more advanced with certain features and capabilities that cannot be included into the older airframe due to lack of space and internal structure.

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## fatman17

IAF TopGuns

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## nomi007

Pakistan AirForce Female fighter Ayesha Farooq Bombs taliban in North Waziristan (Operation ZarbeAzb). She is the female war-ready fighter pilot in Pakistan Airforce.

Good Work Good Work Lady!

First of all my faith full CONGRATULATION to paf and ayesha farooq

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## Seyfullah



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## Windjammer

*PAF SPOKESPERSON*
Shared privately - 6:37 AM
#PAF

*PAF OBSERVES MARTYRS’ DAY*


ISLAMABAD 07 SEPTEMBER, 2014:- Pakistan Air Force observed 7 September as Martyrs’ Day at all PAF Bases throughout the country. A ceremony was also held at Air Headquarters Islamabad, in which Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force, laid floral wreath and offered “Fateha” at the Martyrs’ Monument. Principal Staff Officers and a large number of Airmen attended the ceremony. The day started with special Du’aa and Quran Khawani for the Shuhada of 1965 and 1971 wars and those who laid down their lives in action since creation of Pakistan.

A similar ceremony was held at Karachi, where a PAF contingent led by Air Vice Marshal Azhar Hasan Rizvi, Air Officer Commanding, Southern Air Command offered “Fateha” and laid floral wreath at the grave of Pilot Officer Rashid Minhas Shaheed (Nishan-e- Haider) on behalf of Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force. Floral wreaths were also laid on the graves of PAF Shuhada throughout the country.

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## sabkt

Where is f-86 sabre then? Is it mounted also somewhere?


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## dexter

*Pilot Officer Rashid Minhas remembered on September 7*
*



*

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## Hurter

nomi007 said:


> Pakistan AirForce Female fighter Ayesha Farooq Bombs taliban in North Waziristan (Operation ZarbeAzb). She is the female war-ready fighter pilot in Pakistan Airforce.
> 
> Good Work Good Work Lady!
> 
> First of all my faith full CONGRATULATION to paf and ayesha farooq



Proud of YOU


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## Windjammer



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## fatman17

Windjammer said:


>



this place is worth visiting for an air enthusiast....


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## Donatello

fatman17 said:


> this place is worth visiting for an air enthusiast....



Visited multiple times, still can't get enough of it.

Will be going again soon.

Is it possible to have a PDF meet up at PAF Museum, Karachi?

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## Chak Bamu

nomi007 said:


> Pakistan AirForce Female fighter Ayesha Farooq Bombs taliban in North Waziristan (Operation ZarbeAzb). She is the female war-ready fighter pilot in Pakistan Airforce.
> 
> Good Work Good Work Lady!
> 
> First of all my faith full CONGRATULATION to paf and ayesha farooq



Are you sure she bombed Taliban? Any reference would be good. The last time such a claim was made, it was denied.

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## Donatello

Chak Bamu said:


> Are you sure she bombed Taliban? Any reference would be good. The last time such a claim was made, it was denied.



She is a pilot for F-7s, and i am not sure if F-7s are really that good at strike missions. PAF's preferred pick would be Mirage III/V or F-16s, and some missions with JF-17.

And even if she did bomb them, PAF would never confirm it, since it would be a security issue. I hope they don't confirm anything, and she is kept as much away from Media attention as possible!!!

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## fatman17

Donatello said:


> Visited multiple times, still can't get enough of it.
> 
> Will be going again soon.
> 
> Is it possible to have a PDF meet up at PAF Museum, Karachi?



great idea.....lets take it forward


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## SQ8

Donatello said:


> She is a pilot for F-7s, and i am not sure if F-7s are really that good at strike missions. PAF's preferred pick would be Mirage III/V or F-16s, and some missions with JF-17.
> 
> And even if she did bomb them, PAF would never confirm it, since it would be a security issue. I hope they don't confirm anything, and she is kept as much away from Media attention as possible!!!



Close air support is carried out by F-7s using cannon. Again, a lot less effective in terms of firepower but the idea of a jet bombing them does have its effects.


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## Windjammer

*PAF SPOKESPERSON*
Shared privately 
- 
6:23 AM
GRADUATION CEREMONY OF 113 NON GD COURSE HELD AT PAF ACADEMY RISALPUR

RISALPUR 12 SEPTEMBER, 2014:- The graduation ceremony of 113 Non GD course was held at PAF Academy Risalpur. Air Marshal Saeed Muhammad Khan, Deputy Chief of the Air Staff (Training), was the Chief Guest on the occasion.

The graduating cadets belonging to Engineering, Logistics, Information Technology, Education, Accounts, Admin & Special Duties and Medical branches of PAF were awarded with Branch Insignias. Officer Cadet Faiza Maqsood was awarded the trophy for overall best performance in 113 Non GD course.

While addressing the graduating cadets, the Chief Guest said,” PAF demands nothing less than excellence from each one of you. Your first responsibility, in this regard, should be to master the core competencies in order to excel in your professional domains. Certainly, as custodians of this rich heritage, it is now obligatory on each one of you to achieve excellence in your respective fields and be a role model for all those around you. I am sure that as specialist officers, you will through the expertise, knowledge and experience, contribute significantly towards the overall mission of the PAF”.

The ceremony was followed by an exhilarating aerial display by the PAF Academy Aerobatics team ‘Sherdils’. The ceremony was witnessed by high-ranking Military Officials and a large number of guests of graduating Officers.

Earlier, on his arrival at the Academy the chief guest was received by Air Vice Marshal Aasim Zaheer, Air Officer Commanding PAF Academy, Risalpur.

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## Windjammer

@Oscar , @HORAS, @Fulcrum15 @fatman17 

Do you gents know what happened......seems some close call or something.


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## Bratva

Windjammer said:


> @Oscar , @HORAS, @Fulcrum15 @fatman17
> 
> Do you gents know what happened......seems some close call or something.



Muhammad Ejaz Khan
Saturday, September 13, 2014 
From Print Edition


76 2 13 0


*QUETTA: A PIA flight had a close shave on Friday, as it narrowly escaped a mid-air collision with two PAF fighter jets in the skies over Quetta.
*


The PIA Airbus was to land at the Quetta International Airport with 151 passengers on board at around 1:45pm when two fighter jets took off from the Samungli Airbase, which lies close to the airport.



Officials of PIA told The News that the Airbus PK-368, on a flight from Karachi to Quetta, and the Pakistan Air Force fighter jet fighters came dangerously close to each other in the airspace of Quetta.



The pilot of the passenger aircraft acted quickly and managed to prevent the collision. After averting the collision, the PK-368 remained in mid-air for about half an hour and landed at the airport as soon as it was given clearance by the airport authorities.



“Like any responsible pilot, the pilot landed safely at the Quetta International Airport,” said PIA officials. Subsequently, the plane left Quetta for Islamabad the same afternoon. The officials said that the PIA aircraft was taken on wet lease from Jordan and its crew was also Jordanian.



Sources said the situation was caused by a mistake from a radar operator at the Quetta airport, which is adjacent to the Samungli Airbase. The sources added that an inquiry was ordered into the incident.



APP adds: A PAF spokesman on Friday clarified that no flight safety situation occurred during the landing phase of PK-368 at the Quetta International Airport. Both the pilots of PAF fighter jets were in visual contact with the civil airliner and also in radio contact with the air traffic control, he said in a statement issued here.



As both the combat pilots were visual with the airliner, they maintained vertical as well as lateral safe separations as per the International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO) rules. Similarly, at the same time, the air traffic control tower informed the pilot of PK-368 about the presence of PAF fighter jets at a safe distance.


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## Basel

I don't think it is the case that planes was on collision course, PAF ADC are damn good, they can vector jets to 6 O'Clock to the enemy. planes may have come close, but collision not possible, even in Karachi PAF pilots flew in very tight corridors and very well.


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## Donatello

What i read was the PIA plane in question here, was a Jordanian wet lease, meaning Jordanian crew was operating the flight. The pilot, out of caution might have raised an alarm, since regular civilian pilots flying in and out of Quetta would know such situations accordingly.


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## Jango

No flight safety situation occurred between PIA and fighter jets, PAF clarifies

Looks like the planes were flying IFR.

IMO it's just media sensationalism and nothing more.

Case closed for me.

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## fatman17

Windjammer said:


> @Oscar , @HORAS, @Fulcrum15 @fatman17
> 
> Do you gents know what happened......seems some close call or something.




PAF has denied that there was a close mid-air collision at Quetta. the PAF a/c were at normal seperation distance from the PIA plane. media hype again.


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## fatman17

*AML HE 60-20+: Recently sighted at PAF Base Nur Khan+. Modified Panhard+ armoured car with a 20mm anti-aircraft cannon. Used for on-base security.

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## Interceptor2014

I think it will be great as Govt. is privatizing the whole PIA and I am sure ID Karachi might buy the over haul facility owned by PIA along with PEC in Karachi.

Also heard that PM will also going to privatized all of the Airport with CAA and Sea ports too???


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## Windjammer

*PAF SPOKESPERSON*
Shared privately 7:05 AM


*THE COMPETENCE TO OUTWIT A TECHNOLOGICALLY AND NUMERICALLY SUPERIOR ADVERSARY COMES WITH EXTREME PASSION AND PROFESSIONALISM WITH REALISTIC TRAINING.” AIR CHIEF*



SARGODHA 16 SEPTEMBER, 2014: “Alongside the significance of the state-of-the-art equipment, the competence to outwit a technologically and numerically superior adversary comes with extreme passion and professionalism with realistic training”, said the Air Chief, while addressing the Graduation Ceremony of 44th Combat Commanders’ Course held at Pakistan Air Force Base Mushaf today. Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force was the Chief Guest on the occasion.

While addressing the graduating Combat Commanders, the Air Chief said, “the dynamics of aerial warfare always keep on changing with the battle scenario and its complexity increases in a time compressed environment. The future conflicts would entail airpower employment with all its speed, might, lethality, modern capabilities and concepts. In our continued quest for being the 21st century modern Air Force, PAF leadership has always kept close eye on the changing nature of warfare. In this context, we have been undertaking from time to time major appraisal of our assets, developmental plans and operational doctrine to meet the challenges that lie ahead. The PAF remains committed to provide the best combination of resources and capabilities so that it could employ itself effectively across entire spectrum of conflict. The Air Chief further said, ”meticulous training is our core strength, and time and again, it has been proven that a better-trained professional side with high morale can offset the limitations of numbers and equipment to a great extent”.

The chief guest awarded certificates and trophies to the graduating officers who underwent a strenuous and professionally demanding course. The Chief of the Air Staff Trophy for the best Combat Commander was awarded to Squadron Leader Abdul Ghaffar Buzdar while Air Officer Commanding Air Defence Command Trophy for best Combat Controller was awarded to Squadron Leader Imran Sarwar.
The ceremony was attended by Principal Staff Officers and field commanders of Pakistan Air Force.

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## Rajput_Pakistani

fatman17 said:


> *AML HE 60-20+: Recently sighted at PAF Base Nur Khan+. Modified Panhard+ armoured car with a 20mm anti-aircraft cannon. Used for on-base security.
> 
> View attachment 48893


@fatman17 Bro,

Are you sure its main gun is 20mm. It looks like 72mm atleast to me. Can you please give more details about this Armored car? How may personals it can carry? And what about electronics? NV Capable?

Thanks in advance.


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## fatman17

Windjammer said:


> *PAF SPOKESPERSON*
> Shared privately 7:05 AM
> 
> 
> *THE COMPETENCE TO OUTWIT A TECHNOLOGICALLY AND NUMERICALLY SUPERIOR ADVERSARY COMES WITH EXTREME PASSION AND PROFESSIONALISM WITH REALISTIC TRAINING.” AIR CHIEF*
> 
> 
> 
> SARGODHA 16 SEPTEMBER, 2014: “Alongside the significance of the state-of-the-art equipment, the competence to outwit a technologically and numerically superior adversary comes with extreme passion and professionalism with realistic training”, said the Air Chief, while addressing the Graduation Ceremony of 44th Combat Commanders’ Course held at Pakistan Air Force Base Mushaf today. Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force was the Chief Guest on the occasion.
> 
> While addressing the graduating Combat Commanders, the Air Chief said, “the dynamics of aerial warfare always keep on changing with the battle scenario and its complexity increases in a time compressed environment. The future conflicts would entail airpower employment with all its speed, might, lethality, modern capabilities and concepts. In our continued quest for being the 21st century modern Air Force, PAF leadership has always kept close eye on the changing nature of warfare. In this context, we have been undertaking from time to time major appraisal of our assets, developmental plans and operational doctrine to meet the challenges that lie ahead. The PAF remains committed to provide the best combination of resources and capabilities so that it could employ itself effectively across entire spectrum of conflict. The Air Chief further said, ”meticulous training is our core strength, and time and again, it has been proven that a better-trained professional side with high morale can offset the limitations of numbers and equipment to a great extent”.
> 
> The chief guest awarded certificates and trophies to the graduating officers who underwent a strenuous and professionally demanding course. The Chief of the Air Staff Trophy for the best Combat Commander was awarded to Squadron Leader Abdul Ghaffar Buzdar while Air Officer Commanding Air Defence Command Trophy for best Combat Controller was awarded to Squadron Leader Imran Sarwar.
> The ceremony was attended by Principal Staff Officers and field commanders of Pakistan Air Force.
> 
> View attachment 55487



The Best of the Best....CCS...TopGuns!



Rajput_Pakistani said:


> @fatman17 Bro,
> 
> Are you sure its main gun is 20mm. It looks like 72mm atleast to me. Can you please give more details about this Armored car? How may personals it can carry? And what about electronics? NV Capable?
> 
> Thanks in advance.



dont have pic of the 'modified' armoured car with 20mm. sir other info i dont have but this was under evaluation at chaklala. whether inducted i'm not so sure.


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## Windjammer

*PAF SPOKESPERSON*
Shared privately 12:03 PM


PAF C-130 AIRCRAFT AIRLIFTS RELIEF GOODS FOR THE FLOOD AFFECTED AREAS OF SOUTHERN PUNJAB

Islamabad 18 September, 2014:- On the instructions of Air Chief Marshal, Tahir Rafique Butt, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force PAF is undertaking rescue operations in the flood affected areas of Southern Punjab. A PAF C-130 Aircraft carrying 20000 Kg of dry ration comprising Atta, Rice, Pulses, Dates, Biscuits and Mineral Water took off from PAF Base Nur Khan and landed at Multan Airport today. A fleet of 06 PAF Helicopters is also engaged in rescue and relief operations in these areas. These helicopters have rescued hundreds of flood stricken people who were stranded in the low lying areas of Southern Punjab. PAF rescue squadrons are flying rescue missions in Multan, Ahmadpur Sial and Muzafar Garh areas to evacuate people from the flood hit locations.

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## fatman17

F-6, Kaiser Tufail. c1976

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## aliyusuf

Just an observation ... our G-Suits of today are much better than what Air Comdr. (retd.) is wearing back in 1976.


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## Thorough Pro

a lot of things change in 38 years LOL 



fatman17 said:


> View attachment 59513
> 
> 
> F-6, Kaiser Tufail. c1976

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## fatman17

Sky Dragon AAD SAM System uses the SD-10A BVR missile for medium range base defence. interesting option.

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## Kompromat

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 65745
> Sky Dragon AAD SAM System uses the SD-10A BVR missile for medium range base defence. interesting option.



How does it correlate in terms of our existing SD-10 inventory?


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## Dazzler

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 65745
> Sky Dragon AAD SAM System uses the SD-10A BVR missile for medium range base defence. interesting option.



not likely, it would become a sidekick to spada 2000+ with both systems being mid range while spada being more advanced and reliable.


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## Kompromat

Dazzler said:


> not likely, it would become a sidekick to spada 2000+ with both systems being mid range while spada being more advanced and reliable.



Spada-2000 is NOT mobile.

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## Dazzler

Horus said:


> Spada-2000 is NOT mobile.



being mobile is not good enough reason to procure similar system.


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## Bilal.

Dazzler said:


> not likely, it would become a sidekick to spada 2000+ with both systems being mid range while spada being more advanced and reliable.




It would be more advanced (active seeker = more simultaneous engagement) and has more range (~50 km) compared to spada. It's more in class of ESSM though it's land based.


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## Kompromat

Dazzler said:


> being mobile is not good enough reason to procure similar system.



It is as mobility of a SAM system GREATLY improves its survivability as well as its ability to keep the element of surprise. The Chinese are developing AESA sensors for SAMs. When they come online, it would become an irresistible procurement.


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## fatman17

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 65745
> Sky Dragon AAD SAM System uses the SD-10A BVR missile for medium range base defence. interesting option.


 
*interesting...*

*Saturday, July 7, 2007*
*Modernizing Pakistani Air Defenses *

So I sat down this afternoon and decided to wrap my head around the whole Pakistani air defense issue in light of the FC-1 purchase.

The issue as I see it is that the Pakistani Air Forces (and I am including their SAM network as part of the air forces, I don't think they all report to the PAF but it makes it simpler for the sake of talking about the overall air defense picture) currently lack a robust air defense capability.

Now, we're not talking about pilot skill, PAF vs. IAF inventories, or anything of that nature here. What I mean by that statement is that the current PAF lacks a serious long-range air defense network. Pakistan does possess a number of EW radar systems from various sources, and their EW picture is, for the most part, adequate.

There is a concern that the radar picture could be muddled in some areas due to the uneven terrain found throughout the nation, but this can easily be rectified by employing an AEW&C aircraft, such as the Saab platform currently being purchased for the PAF. Personally, I would've preferred a larger platform with the ability to remain on station longer, perhaps one of the new Chinese Y-8 models, but the Saab platform is certainly not going to fall short in the radar performance category, so it should still be perfectly suitable for the needs of the PAF.

The real problem currently lies in the business end of the IADS network, the shooters. Let's examine the air picture first. 

The PAF currently has to rely on relatively short-legged, older technology aircraft for the most part (the F-16A does enjoy a bit of a range benefit over the F-7s), and they lack a BVR weapon. That means that any intruder with a BVR weapon will put the PAF interceptor pilot at a disadvantage. This is currently being rectified through the purchase and co-production of the FC-1, which will employ the Chinese SD-10 BVR AAM. An upgrade for the PAF F-16 fleet is also being sought, as well as at least 18 new Block 50/52 jets, complete with AIM-120 BVR AAM capability. So, the airborne intercept portion of the equation is being addressed.

The real problem lies with the ground-based SAM network. Pakistan currently relies on the Chinese HQ-2 for strategic air defense purposes. The problem is that there only appears to be one active HQ-2 site near Islamabad, located at 33°32'40.80"N 73°16'04.44"E. There have been claims of a second HQ-2 unit near Karachi, but there is currently no evidence suggesting that this unit is still active, as the site is not visible in overhead imagery. Given the fact that Karachi is not the capital, the equipment could be being held in storage or active reserve for deployment if needed, but for the sake of argument we will proceed with the assumption that only the northern site is active, as it is the only site that can be verified at this time.

Here is an image of the active HQ-2 site near Islamabad:





The next image depicts the maximum range of the HQ-2, 35 kilometers. 35 kilometers is the range of the farthest-reaching HQ-2 variant, I am operating on the assumption that PAF missiles may have been upgraded or replaced over their service lives.





Take note that the mountanous terrain to the east and southeast will affect radar performance and the system's effectiveness will be hampered to some degree in those areas, particularly at low altitudes.

The rest of the Pakistani SAM inventory consists of short-range tactical SAM systems best suited for a point defense or ground unit support role. Clearly, the SAM side of the Pakistani IADS needs to be addressed. Pakistan has shown interest in acquiring advanced Chinese-made SAM systems, including the FT-2000, which is a rather interesting passive homing weapon. Modern Chinese SAM systems should be just as effective as some of their Russian counterparts, as China has been importing some of the best SAM systems in the world from the Russians for years now and has likely taken the opportunity, as they are so often wont to do, to check things out and figure out just what makes them tick. S-300P technology no doubt aided in the development of the very similar HQ-9 strategic SAM system.

Before one sets about redesigning the Pakistani strategic SAM network, one must first consider the goals of the IADS. The goal of the Pakistani IADS should not be to turn Pakistan into a wholly denied parcel of airspace; that would require far too many SAM systems to effectively pull off. Rather, a strategic SAM network should be positioned to protect key infrastructure elements and the government, as well as key military facilities.

In order to defend these key sites, they must be identified. For the sake of this discussion, here is a preliminary list:

-Islamabad
-Khusab reactor complex
-Hyderabad
-Karachi

This list is by no means all inclusive, and is meant simply to illustrate the next point. Additionally, mobile missile facilities have been discounted as they would likely disperse in the event of a large scale conflict.

Alright, primary facilities have been identified. The next step is to identify a potential SAM system for use. The ideal choice, given the nature of their relationship at the present time, would be for Pakistan to procure the 100 kilometer range HQ-9 system from China. As can be seen by the following image, the placement of four HQ-9 units at the aforementioned locations would represent a substantial increase in the Pakistani strategic air defense capability:





Any further strategic facilities or important locations could be defended by additional HQ-9 batteries, but two batteries at each site organized into two regiments, one north and one south, could provide the basis for a robust strategic SAM network.

That leaves the matter of point defense. While Pakistan may choose to procure a European system as they already have experience operating the short-range Crotale and RBS-70 systems, there is another option I would like to present.

Surface-launched AMRAAMs are being used by a few select nations as short/intermediate-range SAM systems. Pakistan has the opportunity here to develop a similar system in cooperation with the Chinese. The SD-10 could potentially form the basis of a very effective point defense system, as well as a system that could be placed covertly along potential threat aircraft ingress routes, particularly in the mountanous regions of the nation. 

The SD-10 is an active radar weapon, ostensibly needing no off-board targeting sensors provided the target can be locked on by the seeker head prior to launch. The way to get around that limitation is to provide a passive detection system based on the FT-2000's EW kit. This would allow for hostile target identification to be performed, and a few sensors positioned at the right locations could provide triangulation so as to enable the system to generate accurate target track data. Target altitudes could be generated by measuring the strength of an identified emission, or perhaps by an accurate EO or IR system. Once a track and an altitude have been identified, the parameters for a launch have been established. An SD-10 could be fired and even updated mid-course using continued examination of the track and altitude data, before going active at point-blank range to allow for the maximum amount of suprise (mid-course signals could, of course, be detected by a sensitive RWR kit, but it'd have to know what it was to classify it as hostile). 

The passive/active SD-10 system would be a cheap, effective option for short-range and point defense and would also be able to serve as a gap filler in areas where terrain precludes engagement by longer-range HQ-9s positioned in the area to defend their assigned locations. All Pakistan needs to do is take the initiative and embrace this concept, and with the induction of an HQ-9 class system the overall strategic air defense network will become much more effective.

Again, a network such as this is not intended to turn the entire nation into denied airspace. That's just not possible, or even economically feasible at any rate. But with a few key adjustments and acquisitions, Pakistan could greatly increase it's defensive capabilities insofar as intruding aircraft are concerned. A more robust SAM network would also free up more aircraft from point defense or CAP duties, allowing them to be retasked for other roles.
Posted by Sean O'Connor

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## Dazzler

Horus said:


> It is as mobility of a SAM system GREATLY improves its survivability as well as its ability to keep the element of surprise. The Chinese are developing AESA sensors for SAMs. When they come online, it would become an irresistible procurement.



so you spent $millions on a mid range fixed sam, now willing to pay more for a mid range mobile sam. Go for it.

by the way, spada's RAC 3-D acquisition radar is more advanced in processing and power than even HQ-9s. It uses more advanced manufacturing process and is more reliable when used ruggedly. There is a reason why we went for spada instead of other sams of the same class, mind you, the yanks also stepped in with SLAMRAAM. Out of five participants, spada came on top. Despite it being semi active, its accuracy is remarkable, more than other missiles of the same class.

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## Donatello

Dazzler said:


> so you spent $millions on a mid range fixed sam, now willing to pay more for a mid range mobile sam. Go for it.
> 
> by the way, spada's RAC 3-D acquisition radar is more advanced in processing and power than even HQ-9s. It uses more advanced manufacturing process and is more reliable when used ruggedly. There is a reason why we went for spada instead of other sams of the same class, mind you, the yanks also stepped in with SLAMRAAM. Out of five participants, spada came on top. Despite it being semi active, its accuracy is remarkable, more than other missiles of the same class.



I think that the next acquisition should be mid range (100km) class SAMs.


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## Dazzler

Donatello said:


> I think that the next acquisition should be mid range (100km) class SAMs.



they are tight lipped and looking china-wards for some interesting options on offer.


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## RAMPAGE

Dazzler said:


> they are tight lipped and looking china-wards for some interesting options on offer.


Do you think we have plans for indigenous Air defence missiles ???


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## Donatello

Dazzler said:


> they are tight lipped and looking china-wards for some interesting options on offer.



Hmm, good to know that. Of course, China seems to be our to-go place.


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## Dazzler

RAMPAGE said:


> Do you think we have plans for indigenous Air defence missiles ???



yes they have, money is the issue.

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## fatman17

F-6 Cockpit, c~50's





Mirage-III Cockpit, c~70's





JF-17 Cockpit, c~2008


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## Inception-06

fatman17 said:


> *AML HE 60-20+: Recently sighted at PAF Base Nur Khan+. Modified Panhard+ armoured car with a 20mm anti-aircraft cannon. Used for on-base security.
> 
> View attachment 48893



Here is another AML vehicle in service with PAF.

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## fatman17

Ulla said:


> Here is another AML vehicle in service with PAF.
> View attachment 81165


 
thanks this is the modified panhard with 20mm gun

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## Dazzler

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 80898
> F-6 Cockpit, c~50's
> 
> View attachment 80905
> 
> Mirage-III Cockpit, c~70's
> 
> View attachment 80906
> 
> JF-17 Cockpit, c~2008



last pic is of an f-18c cockpit

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## hassan1



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## Windjammer



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## fatman17

Donatello said:


> I think that the next acquisition should be mid range (100km) class SAMs.


 
thats 61m altitude.....why do we need such....


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## Bratva

fatman17 said:


> thats 61m altitude.....why do we need such....



He is talking about range not altitude


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## fatman17

Bratva said:


> He is talking about range not altitude


 
its a surface to air missile with 100km range (61miles) - why do we need such...


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## Bratva

fatman17 said:


> its a surface to air missile with 100km range (61miles) - why do we need such...



Due to Indian ARM inventory which is becoming more sophisticated and increasing day by day. Do you want short or medium range SAMS to be taken out by 70-80 KM range Indian ARM?


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## fatman17

USAF U-2 at Pasni.

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## Kompromat

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 84461
> USAF U-2 at Pasni.



When?

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## umair86pk

Its not a U-2 looks like a Fokker F-27 as there is a shadow of its propeller


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## SQ8

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 84461
> USAF U-2 at Pasni.



Not a U-2 at all. Its the Navy F-27 that makes routine flights to Pasni. Previously these flights were carried out by PIA Fokker 27s as well. What possible use would basing a U-2 at Pasni be good for?


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## Najam Khan

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 84461
> USAF U-2 at Pasni.


Sir that looks like Casa Cn235; check wing span and horizontal stabilizers. Few Cn235s are getting dark grey color scheme these days.

If a U-2 was there it would have looked like this...


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## SQ8

Najam Khan said:


> Sir that looks like Casa Cn235; check wing span and horizontal stabilizers. Few Cn235s are getting dark grey color scheme these days.
> 
> If a U-2 was there it would have looked like this...
> View attachment 84691



I'd still stick with a Fokker. Have a look at the engines nacelles on the CN-235 and the length of the same in the photo, along with the general span of the wings and tail.

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## DANGER-ZONE

Najam Khan said:


> Sir that looks like Casa Cn235; check wing span and horizontal stabilizers. Few Cn235s are getting dark grey color scheme these days.
> 
> If a U-2 was there it would have looked like this...
> View attachment 84691



Doesn't look like a Cn-235 ...
The engine length is leading behind the wing, while CASA engines are small.
Moreover CASA's wing tips are identically different than other Pakistani twin propeller-engine aircraft, the plane in picture have flat wingtips.
Its probably a F-27.

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## Donatello

fatman17 said:


> its a surface to air missile with 100km range (61miles) - why do we need such...



To keep the enemy strike aircraft high up and away where they can be engaged by our fighters. Plus, they bring the added benefits of ABM system as well.

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## fatman17

Najam Khan said:


> Sir that looks like Casa Cn235; check wing span and horizontal stabilizers. Few Cn235s are getting dark grey color scheme these days.
> 
> If a U-2 was there it would have looked like this...
> View attachment 84691


 
the shadow is creating a mislead...its a U-2 as pasni was a alternate/recovery drone base for shamshi. check the similar structures near the ramp.

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## fatman17

shamsi


fatman17 said:


> View attachment 84461
> USAF U-2 at Pasni.


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## Donatello

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 84868
> 
> shamsi



The runway doesn't seem long enough to support an aircraft the type of U2. U2 has a long takeoff/recovery distance.

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## VCheng

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 84461
> USAF U-2 at Pasni.



Incorrect. That is NOT a U-2.


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## Jango

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 84868
> 
> shamsi



This isn't SHamsi rather it is Ghazi Avn Base.

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## hassan1

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 84461
> USAF U-2 at Pasni.


CN-235 NOT U-2

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## fatman17

Donatello said:


> The runway doesn't seem long enough to support an aircraft the type of U2. U2 has a long takeoff/recovery distance.


 
not at shamsi but yes at pasni....


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## Kompromat

fatman17 said:


> not at shamsi but yes at pasni....



Sir i thought that the U2s were put out of service unless its PAF using it?


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## fatman17

Horus said:


> Sir i thought that the U2s were put out of service unless its PAF using it?


 
CIA my friend.....the drone ops are CIA funded


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## Kompromat

fatman17 said:


> CIA my friend.....the drone ops are CIA funded



U-2s were replaced by Global Hawks, unless i am missing something.


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## fatman17

notice the extension of runway and new dispersals on the left of the picture.



Horus said:


> U-2s were replaced by Global Hawks, unless i am missing something.


 
pic is from 2008.

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## Windjammer

*PAF SPOKESPERSON*
Shared privately.
5:59 AM

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## Interceptor2014

Heard in some topics that F-15s will be in PAF inventory. For this I think its 100% impossible rather what is possible is 50 AC-130s along with some used Block-15s can easily come.


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## Muqeet Ahmed

Thank you for the info.

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## Maaaz Khan

thanks for information sharing I found this valuable, effort appreciated (Y)


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## fatman17

Interceptor2014 said:


> Heard in some topics that F-15s will be in PAF inventory. For this I think its 100% impossible rather what is possible is 50 AC-130s along with some used Block-15s can easily come.


 
i have my doubts


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## fatman17

*Pakistani Fighter Likely To Have Long Service Life Despite Crash*
*
Oct. 2, 2014 - 05:44PM | By USMAN ANSARI | *







*A Pakistani F-7 aircraft conducts a training mission during a multinational exercise in Southwest Asia. Although an F-7PG recently crashed, the aircraft is expected to remain in service for a long period. (SSgt. Michael B. Keller/AFCENT Combat Camera Team)*

*ISLAMABAD* — Analysts say the crash of a Pakistani fighter jet Wednesday outside the city of Quetta will not affect the likely service life of the aircraft type, although it may be relegated to the role of lead-in fighter trainer.
Air Force spokesman Air Commodore Tariq Mehmood said the aircraft was on an “operational training mission” when it came down due to a “fault,” but that the pilot had safely ejected.
The accident is being investigated.

He did not confirm the type of aircraft in question when asked by Defense News, but Samungli Air Base in Quetta is home to two Chengdu F-7PG squadrons, No. 17 Tigers and No. 23 Talons. The aircraft has since been identified as belonging to No. 23 Squadron.

A third F-7PG squadron, No. 20 Eagles, is stationed at Rafiqui Air Base in Punjab province.

Analyst and retired Air Commodore Kaiser Tufail, who was one of two pilots that tested the baseline J-7MG in China before it was selected in modified form for Pakistani service, says the loss can be absorbed.

“We have lost PGs before, so this is not the first one. It falls within the acceptable category, and the loss isn’t as bad as it would have been were it an F-16 or a JF-17. And the pilot is safe, which is no small mercy,” he said.

The F-7PG is a Pakistan-specific variant of what was ultimately a Chinese version of the venerable MiG-21 Fishbed. Pakistan also operated a larger number of an earlier F-7P variant.

Despite the vintage of the basic F-7 design, analyst Usman Shabbir of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank says “the F-7s actually have a very acceptable crash rate. I can’t recall the exact attrition rate but I am pretty sure it is low.”

The F-7Ps are now considered obsolete, however, and are being replaced by F-16s and JF-17s as a priority.
The F-7PG, with its distinctive double-delta wing, is considered a potent dogfighter and having served just over a decade has plenty of service life remaining.

Whether it can remain a frontline fighter is uncertain. It is only armed with visual-range AIM-9L sidewinder missiles and a 30mm cannon, unlike the Indian MiG-21 Bison upgrade of the Fishbed, which can be armed with beyond-visual-range air-to-air missiles.

But with nearly 60 F-7PGs and twin-seat FT-7PGs acquired, and with considerable investment made in spares, support and infrastructure, Pakistan cannot easily cast them aside.

Tufail says “So far there is no indication of a failure that could lead to a review of the F-7PG inventory.” They still have some worth as a “cheap operational fighter,” he said.

He has previously suggested the F-7PG could be used in lead-in fighter trainer (LIFT) role as more advanced F-16s and JF-17s were acquired.

“The F-7PG is an ideal LIFT aircraft. It is simple, viceless and cheap. I think it will easily go beyond 2020, and is likely to complete at least two decades of service [2024], if not more,” he said.

Author, analyst, and former Australian defense attache to Pakistan, Brian Cloughley, says the F-7PGs may already be serving in such a training role but would not survive in the South Asian air environment.

“They are not just second-line, they’re third line. Very good aircraft in their day, but their day is long gone,” he said. ■
*Email: uansari@defensenews.com.*

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## aliyusuf

To my knowledge this would be the 5th F-7PG/FT-7PG crash since induction to service in 2001'02.
So ... 5 crashes in 13 years including 2 lost in mid air collision on 10th dec'02.

It is not like they are falling like birds?

Also these have very decent maneuverability and radar and can prove lethal as interceptors in the hands of the right pilot who can take advantage of its decent instantaneous turn rate along with excellent pitch authority at high AOA at speeds below 100kts.

I really don't think they should be bandied with the F-7P, when the type is criticized.

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## nomi007

*public service msg to all pakistani members*

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## hassan1

????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????


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## fatman17

hassan1 said:


> ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
> View attachment 111141
> View attachment 111135
> View attachment 111135
> View attachment 111141
> View attachment 111135
> View attachment 111135
> View attachment 111141
> View attachment 111135
> View attachment 111141
> View attachment 111135
> View attachment 111141


 
what the.....

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## Stealth

Machine to kill flying object (birds particular) ....


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## Donatello

I think it is Birds repellent......they emit HF waves to disorient/drive the birds away.

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## nomi007

*RED ALERT*

*India building Air Bases in Kargil, Ladakh : IAF Chief*

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## nomi007

Public service message for all Pakistanis




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152508745802663

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## Windjammer

*PAF SPOKESPERSON*
Shared privately 12:16 PM


GOVERNMENT OF PAKISTAN PROMOTES AIR COMMODORE RANA MUHAMMAD IMRAN TO THE RANK OF AIR VICE MARSHAL


ISLAMABAD 10 OCTOBER, 2014: Government of Pakistan has promoted Air Commodore Rana Muhammad Imran to the rank of Air Vice Marshal.

Air Vice Marshal Rana Muhammad Imran was commissioned in January, 1983 in the Engineering Branch of Pakistan Air Force. During his illustrious career, he has commanded an Engineering Wing and also served as Chief Engineer JF-17 Co-production Project, Aircraft Manufacturing Factory, Kamra and Deputy Managing Director Mirage Rebuild Factory, Kamra. In his staff appointments he has served as Assistant Chief of the Air Staff (Aircraft Engineering) and Assistant Chief of the Air Staff (Ground Engineering) at Air Headquarters, Islamabad. He holds a Bachelor’s degree in Aerospace Engineering and BSc Honors in War Studies. He is also a recipient of Sitara-i-Imtiaz (Military).

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## PakEye

nomi007 said:


> *RED ALERT*
> *India building Air Bases in Kargil, Ladakh : IAF Chief*


Fear of the Pakistan
Big sentence of Indian Army
the icy prison

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## rAli

nomi007 said:


> Public service message for all Pakistanis
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152508745802663



Wow...At 0.31 sec, the ZDK-03 has pretty big damage.


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## fatman17

nomi007 said:


> Public service message for all Pakistanis
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152508745802663


 
PAF bases need to move away from urban areas. the civilian population have no idea what a bird-strike can do to a aircraft esp fighters. PAF has to be more pro-active to ensure that its base area is clear of animal remains and also the adjoining areas where civilian population reside. PAF will not get much help from civic authorities.

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## Donatello

fatman17 said:


> PAF bases need to move away from urban areas. the civilian population have no idea what a bird-strike can do to a aircraft esp fighters. PAF has to be more pro-active to ensure that its base area is clear of animal remains and also the adjoining areas where civilian population reside. PAF will not get much help from civic authorities.



Sir, most of the airbases were built when cities weren't as large. PAF must think about future and start to establish new airbases way outside cities/population centers.

Not only is it safe but secure as well. Karachi Airport is riddled with illegal Goths all around. Same with PAF Faisal/PNS Mehran. Peshawar airbase, Samungali etc they should be moved out.

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## PakEye

Donatello said:


> Sir, most of the airbases were built when cities weren't as large. PAF must think about future and start to establish new airbases way outside cities/population centers.
> 
> Not only is it safe but secure as well. Karachi Airport is riddled with illegal Goths all around. Same with PAF Faisal/PNS Mehran. Peshawar airbase, Samungali etc they should be moved out.


yes the land mafia creating the slum area around and adjacent the Defence Installations the concerned quarters are quite who will take the notice.

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## Interceptor2014

fatman17 said:


> *Pakistani Fighter Likely To Have Long Service Life Despite Crash*
> *Oct. 2, 2014 - 05:44PM | By USMAN ANSARI | *
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 106489
> 
> *A Pakistani F-7 aircraft conducts a training mission during a multinational exercise in Southwest Asia. Although an F-7PG recently crashed, the aircraft is expected to remain in service for a long period. (SSgt. Michael B. Keller/AFCENT Combat Camera Team)*
> 
> *ISLAMABAD* — Analysts say the crash of a Pakistani fighter jet Wednesday outside the city of Quetta will not affect the likely service life of the aircraft type, although it may be relegated to the role of lead-in fighter trainer.
> Air Force spokesman Air Commodore Tariq Mehmood said the aircraft was on an “operational training mission” when it came down due to a “fault,” but that the pilot had safely ejected.
> The accident is being investigated.
> 
> He did not confirm the type of aircraft in question when asked by Defense News, but Samungli Air Base in Quetta is home to two Chengdu F-7PG squadrons, No. 17 Tigers and No. 23 Talons. The aircraft has since been identified as belonging to No. 23 Squadron.
> 
> A third F-7PG squadron, No. 20 Eagles, is stationed at Rafiqui Air Base in Punjab province.
> 
> Analyst and retired Air Commodore Kaiser Tufail, who was one of two pilots that tested the baseline J-7MG in China before it was selected in modified form for Pakistani service, says the loss can be absorbed.
> 
> “We have lost PGs before, so this is not the first one. It falls within the acceptable category, and the loss isn’t as bad as it would have been were it an F-16 or a JF-17. And the pilot is safe, which is no small mercy,” he said.
> 
> The F-7PG is a Pakistan-specific variant of what was ultimately a Chinese version of the venerable MiG-21 Fishbed. Pakistan also operated a larger number of an earlier F-7P variant.
> 
> Despite the vintage of the basic F-7 design, analyst Usman Shabbir of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank says “the F-7s actually have a very acceptable crash rate. I can’t recall the exact attrition rate but I am pretty sure it is low.”
> 
> The F-7Ps are now considered obsolete, however, and are being replaced by F-16s and JF-17s as a priority.
> The F-7PG, with its distinctive double-delta wing, is considered a potent dogfighter and having served just over a decade has plenty of service life remaining.
> 
> Whether it can remain a frontline fighter is uncertain. It is only armed with visual-range AIM-9L sidewinder missiles and a 30mm cannon, unlike the Indian MiG-21 Bison upgrade of the Fishbed, which can be armed with beyond-visual-range air-to-air missiles.
> 
> But with nearly 60 F-7PGs and twin-seat FT-7PGs acquired, and with considerable investment made in spares, support and infrastructure, Pakistan cannot easily cast them aside.
> 
> Tufail says “So far there is no indication of a failure that could lead to a review of the F-7PG inventory.” They still have some worth as a “cheap operational fighter,” he said.
> 
> He has previously suggested the F-7PG could be used in lead-in fighter trainer (LIFT) role as more advanced F-16s and JF-17s were acquired.
> 
> “The F-7PG is an ideal LIFT aircraft. It is simple, viceless and cheap. I think it will easily go beyond 2020, and is likely to complete at least two decades of service [2024], if not more,” he said.
> 
> Author, analyst, and former Australian defense attache to Pakistan, Brian Cloughley, says the F-7PGs may already be serving in such a training role but would not survive in the South Asian air environment.
> 
> “They are not just second-line, they’re third line. Very good aircraft in their day, but their day is long gone,” he said. ■
> *Email: uansari@defensenews.com.*



PAF and the whole Pakistan is in great problem. China along with PLAAF can easily help out PAF by giving away free of cost their F-7s all variants and charge just cost to cost for the avionics upgrade to carry latest weapons. I am sure PAF would be 100% ready to bring back those F-7Ps back which they have decorated for just spares and to scrap them to gain money against metal.



hassan1 said:


> ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
> View attachment 111141
> View attachment 111135
> View attachment 111135
> View attachment 111141
> View attachment 111135
> View attachment 111135
> View attachment 111141
> View attachment 111135
> View attachment 111141
> View attachment 111135
> View attachment 111141



What do you mean by this? Is someone in Pakistan shooting down these planes???

I am in support that PAF should renew their F-7 fleet with Chinese support and help free of cost as we are hedge against India too.



Stealth said:


> Machine to kill flying object (birds particular) ....


Really disturbing.



nomi007 said:


> *RED ALERT*
> 
> *India building Air Bases in Kargil, Ladakh : IAF Chief*



Describe in details.

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## nomi007

which squadron is active 
*Skardu*


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## N/A

Hi sorry to be a little off topic but my goal is to protect and serve Pakistan as a officer in the Pakistan air force as a GDP. Currently i live and study in the United States. I lived in the USA all my live, i am a pakistani citizen. I am currently in high school, my grades are above average, my grades are 84-95 i take many advance classes. I am part of many sports teams and i am currently a class officer. After i gradaute high school i will be getting my degree from a American College in Aerospace Engineering. After that what will i have to do to become a GDP as a officer in the Pakistan Air Force.

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## fatman17

SquadronLeaderDin said:


> Hi sorry to be a little off topic but my goal is to protect and serve Pakistan as a officer in the Pakistan air force as a GDP. Currently i live and study in the United States. I lived in the USA all my live, i am a pakistani citizen. I am currently in high school, my grades are above average, my grades are 84-95 i take many advance classes. I am part of many sports teams and i am currently a class officer. After i gradaute high school i will be getting my degree from a American College in Aerospace Engineering. After that what will i have to do to become a GDP as a officer in the Pakistan Air Force.


 
apply and wish you best of luck!

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## Arsalan

SquadronLeaderDin said:


> Hi sorry to be a little off topic but my goal is to protect and serve Pakistan as a officer in the Pakistan air force as a GDP. Currently i live and study in the United States. I lived in the USA all my live, i am a pakistani citizen. I am currently in high school, my grades are above average, my grades are 84-95 i take many advance classes. I am part of many sports teams and i am currently a class officer. After i gradaute high school i will be getting my degree from a American College in Aerospace Engineering. After that what will i have to do to become a GDP as a officer in the Pakistan Air Force.


After getting degree in Aerospace Engineering it will be better if you for for PAC job as an Aeronautical Engineer and join PAF in the engineering department rather then GDP. 
But the final choice is yours to make. 
Best of Luck!

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## fatman17

*Wednesday, October 8, 2014*
*J-15S *
Recently, we got some new photos of J-15S coming out, which is always exciting. J-15S is the twin-seated version of China's naval flanker J-15. Its prototype flirst flew from SAC airfield on November 2012. All of the J-15S photos we've seen so far have shown Taihang engines powering the aircraft. That would suggest J-15S will be powered by Taihang right from the time it enters service and that the single seated J-15 could be powered by Taihang after the first batch.








We know that J-11BS entered service relatively soon after J-11B entered service after a relatively short flight testing program of around 2 years. It probably could've been even shorter if not for the problems with Taihang engine at the time. We saw very few photos of J-11BS in flight testing. In comparison, it seems to me that J-15S will be having a longer flight testing program, although not as long as would be expected out of a new variant like J-11B or J-16.

Going forward, I think it is likely that J-15S would be used in more roles than just as twin-seated trainer. First of all, J-15S could be developed in navy's version of J-16. The J-15 airframe should already be strengthened to handle the punishment of taking off and landing on a carrier, so J-15S may not need too much additional work to handle the additional payload expected out of a strike fighter. J-15S would not have the range or payload of J-16 due to restrictions of taking off from a STOBAR carrier, but it could be installed with similar avionics and combat system for strike missions as J-16. It will be able to carry different types of anti-ship missiles, anti-radiation missile and ground attack munitions/missiles that can be launched by the pilot in the WSO seat. Having the second pilot should make J-15S a more effective strike aircraft than J-15. Aside from just anti-shipping missions and ground attack missions, it could also be fitted with the subsystems for SEAD missions and EW warfare. When Su-30MK2 came out, there was a lot of talk about its usage as a "mini-AWACS". While that is a little overblown and CV-16 will already have several Ka-31 and Z-18 AEW helicopters, J-15S can certainly be equipped with the necessary avionics to process data from a group of J-15s and direct their actions.

In summary, J-15S will be a very useful naval aircraft for China's burgeoning naval air arm. It will likely have many use beyond that of a trainer.
Posted by Feng

interesting development...

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## Armstrong

@fatman17 - Sir, what does the above news has to do with the PAF ?


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## fatman17

Armstrong said:


> @fatman17 - Sir, what does the above news has to do with the PAF ?


 
J-15 with chinese engine.....possibilities are endless.

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## Armstrong

fatman17 said:


> J-15 with chinese engine.....possibilities are endless.



Do you think the PAF would go for a twin engined platform in these times ? 

Flying an A5 or a J6 is one thing; flying this beast with its much higher operational cost may probably be cost-prohibitive for us....don't you think ?


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## Arsalan

Armstrong said:


> Do you think the PAF would go for a twin engined platform in these times ?
> 
> Flying an A5 or a J6 is one thing; flying this beast with its much higher operational cost may probably be cost-prohibitive for us....don't you think ?


I dont think Fatman is suggesting that we might get these in next financial year, NO. 
In fact i personally do not see it flying for PAF ever, however as said, a fighter jet powered by a *Chinese engine *is something interesting for Pakistan as well.

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## fatman17

Armstrong said:


> Do you think the PAF would go for a twin engined platform in these times ?
> 
> Flying an A5 or a J6 is one thing; flying this beast with its much higher operational cost may probably be cost-prohibitive for us....don't you think ?


 
if J-10/FC-20 remains out of the picture due to engine issue, then PAF needs to replace its Mirage-ROSE a/c at some point and the J-15S inducted in limited numbers would prove ideal as a 'flying tank'. has a versatile load capability.

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## raazh

Keeping the financing issues apart .. J11/J15 or any of its form would be a good deterrence against IN ships and air craft carrier due to its long range and decent payload capability. Sort of a mini awac loaded with long range stand-off weapons. However I dont think it fits into (at least current) PAF doctrine against IAF.


----------



## ANG

New pictures of J-10B revealed - IHS Jane's 360


*New pictures of J-10B revealed*
*Alexander Weening, Beijing and James Hardy, London* - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

A new batch of mass-produced Chengdu J-10B fighters are undergoing flight and taxi tests, Chinese media has reported saying that the aircraft will enter service "soon".

The J-10B is an improved variant of the Chengdu J-10 manufactured by the state-owned Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation, also known as the Chengdu Aerospace Corporation, a subsidiary of AVIC.

The photos, which were posted on the cdjby.net military forum on 3 October, show four aircraft on the ground and two in the air. The airborne aircraft are numbered 120 and 122, while known serial numbers for the J-10B are: 101, 102, 103, 104, 106, 107, 110, 120, 122, and 201.

Chinese media also reported, without further elaboration, that some of the J-10Bs are equipped with China's own WS-10 Taihang engine. Early J-10Bs were believed to be fitted with the Russian AL-31FN M1 engine - a more powerful version of the AL-31F that powers the J-10A.

The J-10B's key differences from the J-10A include a redesigned chin intake, with the lower edge now angled forward and movable ramp replaced by a smaller, fixed, diffuser bulge that also contributes to reduced weight and radar cross-section; a longer nose radome that is believed to house an NRIET active electronically scanned array radar; and an electro-optic targeting sensor (infrared search and track, and laser rangefinder) mounted just forward of the windscreen, offset to starboard. It also has a new electronic warning or countermeasures pod atop the vertical stabilizer.



fatman17 said:


> if J-10/FC-20 remains out of the picture due to engine issue, then PAF needs to replace its Mirage-ROSE a/c at some point and the J-15S inducted in limited numbers would prove ideal as a 'flying tank'. has a versatile load capability.

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## fatman17

Karachi airport from 33,000ft.

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## nomi007

*Pakistani fighter pilot with American T-38 Talon aircraft.*

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## fatman17

nomi007 said:


> *Pakistani fighter pilot with American T-38 Talon aircraft.*


 
T-38 is a good LIFT for F-16 pilots.


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## Donatello

fatman17 said:


> T-38 is a good LIFT for F-16 pilots.



There were rumors of Pakistan looking into USAF T-38s for training? What happened to that?


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## nomi007

Donatello said:


> There were rumors of Pakistan looking into USAF T-38s for training? What happened to that?


plans to add more k-8 and more advance L-15


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## fatman17

PAF 1986














the much aged F-86 and B-57's were retired




more Mirages were inducted









T-37's


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## fatman17

*Pakistani F-16s & AH-1s Strike Militants in Northern Waziristan*
three months into operation Zarb-e-azb, Pakistan's Army with support from its AH-1s and Air Force F-16s, continued their fight to rid the North Waziristan region of militants.

Since June 15, government forces have been trying to flush out foreign and local fighters from their sanctuaries in Miramshah, Boya, dagan and Mirali.

the PAF F-16s comprising 5 Sqn F-16C/Ds and 9 & 11 Sqn's recently upgraded F-16A/Bs, have been targetting the jihadi hide-outs day and night with laser-guided bombs, using their Litening and ATLIS targeting pods. artillery and tanks were also being used to target locations located by PAF C-130B and army Beech 350 surveillence aircraft.

personnel from all three AH-1 units, 31, 33 and 35 Sqn at Multan have deployed to forward operating bases to support the army as they clear up the areas and move into the towns for house-to-house search.

around 900, including many uzbeks, have been killed, while the army has lost around 80 soldiers to date in some fierce fighting - alan warnes - AFM - October

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## fatman17

*AVM (r) Faaiz Amir new Air University VC*
Saturday, October 18, 2014 
*
Islamabad*
Air Vice Marshal (r) Faaiz Amir, HI (M), S Bt, has been appointed as vice chancellor of Air University (AU), He will formally resume his duties from Monday (October 20). says a press release.
Air Vice Marshal (r) Faaiz Amir has served in Pakistan Air Force (PAF) for over 35 years. He has been a distinguished professional of PAF and commanded the prestigious Combat Commanders School of Pakistan Air Force. He also served as commandant of the National Security College of National Defence University (NDU).He possesses high command and management skills along with the advanced academic background.
His appointment as vice chancellor of this esteemed University has been hailed in academic and learned community. AVM (r) Faaiz Amir in his statement vowed to carry forward the mission of quality education at Air University and to work for the well-being of employees. He emphasised on teaching quality, advanced research, professional dedication and well-coordinated teamwork to thrive in academia for earning highest ranking among the national and international universities. The departing VC Air Commodore (r) Dr. Ijaz Ahmed Malik; AU Registrar Air Commodore (r) Ghulam Mujaddid; Director Academics Dr. Isa Daudpota, all deans, heads of departments and other officials of the university felicitated the new VC on his appointment.

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## raazh

Our universities need to get involved in real Research work .. Hope AVM will try to get projects from PAC and other industries to improve the level of student skills ..

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## fatman17

tid bits from Feng's blog:

On top of that, Pakistan has just signed a contract for 4 more F-22P. Since China doesn't report on its naval exports, we really don't know about those deals until we see them taking shape in one of the numerous naval shipyards around the country.

In addition, we saw the introduction of the Chinese version of MK-41 VLS that can launch different types of missiles and fit multiple missiles per launch cell. When we compared the overhead shot of 052D vs 052C, it appears that the size of the ships did not change much, but the new VLS and other weaponry have allowed more capabilities to be packed in the same hull.

PAF have really made JF-17 project what it is today by discovering/expanding the flight envelopes of the aircraft and working with various Chinese firms to add support for SD-10A, SRAAM, C-802A, various PGMs and the infamous mach 4.5 CM-400AG.

Project 310 will most likely be exported to Pakistan. After that, it will have to battle against F-35, PAK-FA and Gripen-E in the Middle East, South East Asia, Brazil and South Africa. Its main advantages are its cost and available production slot, but China will have to move fast.

China is probably in the best shape in the intermediate trainer class, because K-8 (aka JL-8) pretty much become the trainer of choice for third world air forces.

PAF got GBU-12 (paveway LGBs) from US and also the license production for GBU-12's laser guidance pod. LT-2 and GBU-12 are pretty much from the same generation, so LT-2 is facing "domestic" competition.

J-10 remains the most deadly fighter jet in PLAAF and will be work horse of PLAAF for the next 2 decades. In the past few years, it has handed lopsided defeats to su-27/J-11A/su-30mkk in PLAAF exercises. Even against J-11B (which is equipped with a newer generation of avionics), it can still achieve parity with its much smaller RCS and greater maneuverability

Countries like Venezuela, Egypt and Pakistan will certainly be more likely to buy L-15 after inducting K-8s.

Today, we just heard about the Mi-171 deal concluding with a company in Sichuan doing the assembly. As we mentioned in this blog, we first about this plan in one of the posters of this company. We also saw a picture of the first assembled Mi-171 on a Kanwa article last year. However, from this report, it's clear that China has received a Z-9 type of deal where it could the rights to eventually produce everything locally and exporting the planes to third countries.

As for future purchases, I think it's pretty clear 054 series is where PN would want to go at the moment. I'm still waiting for the follow ups to the first 4 054As to see what the upgraded 054A and future 054B will look like. It appears that unlike first suspected, each 054/054A uses 4 16 PA6 STC diesel engines from SEMT Pielstick. At least it makes sense that it uses a more power engine than the one Lafayette uses to power a larger ship in 054A.

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## fatman17

Hafr-1/2 - local copy of the french durandel RPB

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## fatman17



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## Donatello

fatman17 said:


> tid bits from Feng's blog:
> 
> On top of that, Pakistan has just signed a contract for 4 more F-22P. Since China doesn't report on its naval exports, we really don't know about those deals until we see them taking shape in one of the numerous naval shipyards around the country.
> 
> In addition, we saw the introduction of the Chinese version of MK-41 VLS that can launch different types of missiles and fit multiple missiles per launch cell. When we compared the overhead shot of 052D vs 052C, it appears that the size of the ships did not change much, but the new VLS and other weaponry have allowed more capabilities to be packed in the same hull.
> 
> PAF have really made JF-17 project what it is today by discovering/expanding the flight envelopes of the aircraft and working with various Chinese firms to add support for SD-10A, SRAAM, C-802A, various PGMs and the infamous mach 4.5 CM-400AG.
> 
> Project 310 will most likely be exported to Pakistan. After that, it will have to battle against F-35, PAK-FA and Gripen-E in the Middle East, South East Asia, Brazil and South Africa. Its main advantages are its cost and available production slot, but China will have to move fast.
> 
> China is probably in the best shape in the intermediate trainer class, because K-8 (aka JL-8) pretty much become the trainer of choice for third world air forces.
> 
> PAF got GBU-12 (paveway LGBs) from US and also the license production for GBU-12's laser guidance pod. LT-2 and GBU-12 are pretty much from the same generation, so LT-2 is facing "domestic" competition.
> 
> J-10 remains the most deadly fighter jet in PLAAF and will be work horse of PLAAF for the next 2 decades. In the past few years, it has handed lopsided defeats to su-27/J-11A/su-30mkk in PLAAF exercises. Even against J-11B (which is equipped with a newer generation of avionics), it can still achieve parity with its much smaller RCS and greater maneuverability
> 
> Countries like Venezuela, Egypt and Pakistan will certainly be more likely to buy L-15 after inducting K-8s.
> 
> Today, we just heard about the Mi-171 deal concluding with a company in Sichuan doing the assembly. As we mentioned in this blog, we first about this plan in one of the posters of this company. We also saw a picture of the first assembled Mi-171 on a Kanwa article last year. However, from this report, it's clear that China has received a Z-9 type of deal where it could the rights to eventually produce everything locally and exporting the planes to third countries.
> 
> As for future purchases, I think it's pretty clear 054 series is where PN would want to go at the moment. I'm still waiting for the follow ups to the first 4 054As to see what the upgraded 054A and future 054B will look like. It appears that unlike first suspected, each 054/054A uses 4 16 PA6 STC diesel engines from SEMT Pielstick. At least it makes sense that it uses a more power engine than the one Lafayette uses to power a larger ship in 054A.



Lost of speculation, but i do expect more ships for PN along with Submarines, and China is the Natural source.

J-31 is still a good 5 years away from being FOC ready.By that time PAF will know the regional theater better, PAC can expand to accommodate J-31 production alongside JF-17 production, PAF would want 2-3 squadrons of J-31 anyway.

Now, since the new government is hell bent on generating cash, i do see some of the financial woes going away.


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## fatman17

coming soon to an air base near you...

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## Arsalan

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 137449
> coming soon to an air base near you...



Are you breaking some NEWS?  Some official happenings that have leaked or is it based on the rumors surrounding the project from day one? 
Will love to get some more details of this " JALD AARAHA HAA.... AB AP KA SHER MEIN )


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## Donatello

Arsalan said:


> Are you breaking some NEWS?  Some official happenings that have leaked or is it based on the rumors surrounding the project from day one?
> Will love to get some more details of this " JALD AARAHA HAA.... AB AP KA SHER MEIN )



Bhai, it is given that any future low-RCS aircraft that PAF might procure would be from China, and most probably something like J-31. However, this is a good 5 years in the future. Right now, it is F-16s and JF-17s.


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## Arsalan

Donatello said:


> Bhai, it is given that any future low-RCS aircraft that PAF might procure would be from China, and most probably something like J-31. However, this is a good 5 years in the future. Right now, it is F-16s and JF-17s.


5 years a bot too optimistic i guess.


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## Donatello

Arsalan said:


> 5 years a bot too optimistic i guess.



Well, the Chinese will sort out the teething issues. I used the term 'Low RCS' for a reason. What i mean is, China or Russia will not be able to build the F-35/F-22 level aircraft in the next 10 years. F-22 is the benchmark for stealth. What is it's RCS? 0.0001m2?
However, if China can make a fighter that carries internal load and fuel, and as such it's RCS comes to 0.1 or 0.01, it is very good. Thus the term low-RCS, a plane that will be extremely hard to pick by radar, whether PD or AESA. We have no aims for air dominance over the world.We want a plane that can easily penetrate Indian SAMs. A plane that is 0.1/0.001 m2 RCS, can easily do that.

So in 5 years, that is possible. Plus the engines of course. Low RCS aircraft (whether you call them stealth or not doesn't matter, since as @gambit has already said no aircraft is invisible to radar. It's about how far away you can detect it. Detecting it at 1km doesn't help) in the Sub-continent would be equal to the introduction of Nukes. You don't have to go tit for tat. Even small amount of undetectable aircraft will have a massive effect.

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## Arsalan

Donatello said:


> Well, the Chinese will sort out the teething issues. I used the term 'Low RCS' for a reason. What i mean is, China or Russia will not be able to build the F-35/F-22 level aircraft in the next 10 years. F-22 is the benchmark for stealth. What is it's RCS? 0.0001m2?
> However, if China can make a fighter that carries internal load and fuel, and as such it's RCS comes to 0.1 or 0.01, it is very good. Thus the term low-RCS, a plane that will be extremely hard to pick by radar, whether PD or AESA. We have no aims for air dominance over the world.We want a plane that can easily penetrate Indian SAMs. A plane that is 0.1/0.001 m2 RCS, can easily do that.
> 
> So in 5 years, that is possible. Plus the engines of course. Low RCS aircraft (whether you call them stealth or not doesn't matter, since as @gambit has already said no aircraft is invisible to radar. It's about how far away you can detect it. Detecting it at 1km doesn't help) in the Sub-continent would be equal to the introduction of Nukes. You don't have to go tit for tat. Even small amount of undetectable aircraft will have a massive effect.



I agree with the low RCS concept but i mentioned 5 years being too optimistic for another reason altogether. I do not see China will develop another LOW RCS plane other then the projects already running within 5 years and get that exported. Regarding the projects running that are categorized as 5th generation will also not be available in numbers to be exported. PLAAF will have there own requirements. Any next generation procurement by PAF will take more then 5 years, considering the current induction program, our financial situation and also platform availability.


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## fatman17

F-7PG on AD Duty.


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## Dazzler

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 138003
> F-7PG on AD Duty.



rather P, notice non cranked wings and three piece canopy

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## Sulman Badshah

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 137449
> coming soon to an air base near you...


Bro how much sure you are ???


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## fatman17

Arsalan said:


> Are you breaking some NEWS?  Some official happenings that have leaked or is it based on the rumors surrounding the project from day one?
> Will love to get some more details of this " JALD AARAHA HAA.... AB AP KA SHER MEIN )


 
*Saturday, October 25, 2014*
*J-31 to headline this year's Zhuhai International Aviation & Aerospace Exhibition. *
Expert: J-31 has export advantages


(Source: China Military Online) 2014-10-24


　　BEIJING, October 24 (ChinaMil) –Over 130 aircraft of various types will participate in the 10th China International Aviation & Aerospace Exhibition to be unveiled on November 11, 2014 in Zhuhai of south China’s Guangdong province, and the J-31 stealth fighter will also appear in Zhuhai and conduct a demonstration flight, according to media reports.

　　Xu Yongling, an aviation expert, said in an interview that the Chinese fighters are renowned for its low cost and excellent technical standard. The J-31 stealth fighter has export advantages. In the future military trade market, China will no longer be the "small potato". Instead, its market share will gradually increase.

　　The J-31 stealth fighter had its successful maiden flight in 2012 and is still in the test phase. However, will its participation in exhibition only two years after the maiden flight reveal secrets of China’s stealth aircraft technology?

　　Xu Yongling said that the J-31 is likely to be positioned as an export-oriented aircraft initially. Therefore, the secrecy is not a problem. The J-31 shall disclose its appearance as much as possible in order to have a good showcase.

　　The current global arms export market is still dominated by the United States. Russia’s orders remain stable in the second place while arms exports from Europe are gradually improving. China is relatively weak in this field. "If Russia and Europe are entering into rivalry with the U.S. over the cake, then China can only cut a corner form the cake", said Xu Yongling. Once the J-31 is being exported, it will become a highly-competitive product in moderately developed countries or below, along with third-generation fighters.

　　European countries are traditional allies of the U.S. so their military aircraft trade contains a lot of strategic and political factors. It is very difficult for other countries to intervene.

　　The training systems in the NATO, the U.S. and its allies are bounded together. "It is very difficult for aircraft developed by outsider countries to enter their market as the threshold is very high", Xu Yongling said.

　　Xu Yongling stressed that China does not want to sell fighters to western countries. In addition to traditional friendly countries such as Pakistan, there are many countries in the Middle East, South Asia and Latin America whose demand for fighters matches China’s ability to export military aircraft. Some countries are lacking imported third-generation fighters while their second-generation fighters are going to the scrapheap. They have a large demand for importing fighters.

　　“If China’s products can catch up with the rhythm of these countries in terms of time period and we take initiative from military diplomacy, then the possibility of having a share in the third-generation and fourth-generation fighters market in these countries remains relatively high," said Xu.

　　Xu Yongling believes that the Chinese fighters’ share in global arms trade market will gradually increase in the future. It is possible for China to transform from a "corner” role to an important player with strong competitiveness.



Editor:Zhang Tao

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## syedali73

Dazzler said:


> rather P, notice non cranked wings and three piece canopy


With AIM-9P. BTW, are we still using AIM-9P?


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## Dazzler

syedali73 said:


> With AIM-9P. BTW, are we still using AIM-9P?



the (p) is for f-7P, an older version of f-7MP developed upon PAF specifications, not Aim 9-p 

we still do use aim-9p though


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## syedali73

Dazzler said:


> the (p) is for f-7P, an older version of f-7MP developed upon PAF specifications, not Aim 9-p
> 
> we still do use aim-9p though


Yes I know that 'p'. I was asking specifically about AIM-9P. The ones we are using been upgraded to block 5 standard?


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## HRK

maint1234 said:


> Pakistanis are really pathetic , nothing to show of their own ,so relying on chinese defence news , haha.





> *Psychological characteristics*
> Two studies published in 2013 and 2014 have found that people who are identified as *trolls* tend to have dark personality traits and show signs of sadism, antisocial behavior, psychopathy, and machiavellianism. The 2013 study suggested that there are a number of similarities between anti-social and flame trolling activities and the 2014 study suggested that the noxious personality characteristics known as the "dark triad of personality" should be investigated in the analysis of trolling, and concluded that *trolling appears "to be an Internet manifestation of everyday sadism."* Their relevance is suggested by* research linking these traits to bullying in both adolescents and adults.*




Please allow me to show our deepest and sincere sympathy for you on behalf of all of Pakistani members of this forum.

We really feel sorry for you & your kind ...

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## Dazzler

syedali73 said:


> Yes I know that 'p'. I was asking specifically about AIM-9P. The ones we are using been upgraded to block 5 standard?



never heard on any upgrades on p, simply inducted new versions.


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## syedali73

Dazzler said:


> never heard on any upgrades on p, simply inducted new versions.


I see. Following is an excerpt on AIM-9P family of sidewinders:

While the AIM-9L fulfilled the role of the frontline all aspect dogfight missile, a need still existed for a second tier weapon for use in less demanding situations, and also suitable for export to less than absolutely trusted allies. This requirement was fulfilled by the AIM-9P family, derivatives of the AIM-9J/N.

The AIM-9P-2 and P-3 were introduced in the mid seventies and use improved guidance electronics, a new rocket motor and an active optical fuse. While not receiving the publicity of the AIM-9L, the success of the weapon is testified to by the fact that no less than 21,000 have been built, with substantial numbers in the USAF inventory.

The AIM-9P is a USAF sponsored development of the AIM-9J/N family, to provide a missile for use in less demanding applications. The AIM-9P has evolved through the P-2, P-3 to the all aspect P-4, and the P-5 with additional counter-countermeasures capability. Large numbers of various AIM-9P subtypes are in use with the USAF and many export customers. The missile retains the conical nosecone and characteristic double delta canards first used in the Vietnam era USAF AIM-9E.

The AIM-9P-4 is an incremental development of the AIM-9P-3, with an all aspect seeker using some of the technology developed for the AIM-9L. In comparison with its cousin, it is less agile but still a very effective missile. The AIM-9P-5 is further improved by the addition of a counter-countermeasures capability. The wide range of types which can carry the P-3/4/5 suggest that the gas coolant is carried on board, as with the L/M.


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## SQ8

Dazzler said:


> the (p) is for f-7P, an older version of f-7MP developed upon PAF specifications, not Aim 9-p
> 
> we still do use aim-9p though



Which is not always a bad thing. The P series onwards from the -2 variant are fairly potent missiles .


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## araz

Oscar said:


> Which is not always a bad thing. The P series onwards from the -2 variant are fairly potent missiles .


So do we know which variant of AIM9P are we using?
Araz


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## umair86pk

P4/P5 variants are in service but will be replaced in the coming years as they might be out of date by than as they were inducted way back in the 80s


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## Dazzler

talk about heat seekers, there are reports that pl-5eII is a very good development. It has better boresight agility, irccm resistance. Overall better than all sraams in current inventory except AIM-9M, that too in some areas.


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## Donatello

Dazzler said:


> talk about heat seekers, there are reports that pl-5eII is a very good development. It has better boresight agility, irccm resistance. Overall better than all sraams in current inventory except AIM-9M, that too in some areas.



Well, can't say anything. Even though AIM9 is AIM9, the subversions are vastly different. AIM9L/M/P are all essentially different. Does anyone know which AIM9 is PL5EII based on?


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## fatman17

syedali73 said:


> With AIM-9P. BTW, are we still using AIM-9P?


 
all AIM-9P rounds upgraded.

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## fatman17

*Pakistan, Nigeria to boost military ties*
By Syed Irfan Raza






ISLAMABAD: PAF chief Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt is pictured with his Nigerian counterpart Air Marshal Adesola Nunayon Amosu during a briefing at the Air Headquarters here on Monday.—APP
ISLAMABAD: Pakistan and Nigeria agreed on Monday to boost military ties and trade in defence -related products.

The two sides discussed the issue during a meeting between President Mamnoon Hussain and visiting Nigerian Chief of Air Staff, Air Marshal Adesola Nunayon Amosu here on Monday. Nigeria’s High Commissioner to Pakistan Dauda Dauladi attended the meeting.

A source privy to the meeting told Dawn that Nigeria had shown keen interest in acquiring Pakistan-made arms, ammunition and other equipment, including tanks.

Nigerian Defence Minister Musiliu Obanikoro will attend Ideas-2014 national exhibition of arms, ammunition and defence related products to be held in Karachi in December.

During his visit some agreements are likely to be signed according to which Pakistan may provide defence related products to Nigeria.

Wishing the visiting dignitary a pleasant and fruitful visit to Pakistan, President Mamnoon said the two countries should explore avenues for further forging closer military ties, especially in areas of military training and defence technologies.

Meanwhile, the Nigerian delegation visited different defence production sites, including Pakistan Ordnance Factories Wah.

“The Nigerian showed interest in Pakistani aircraft Mashak and Al Khalid tanks,” the source said.

Defence Secretary Mohammad Alam Khattak, Defence Production Ministry Secretary Tanvir Tahir and high officials of the president’s secretariat were also present at the meeting.

*APP adds:* Air Marshal Amosu visited Air Headquarters and paid homage to the martyrs of PAF by laying a wreath on the Martyrs’ Monument.

On his arrival at the Air Headquarters, he was received by Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt, Chief of the Air Staff. A smartly turned out contingent of PAF presented the Guard of Honour.

_Published in Dawn, October 28th, 2014_

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## fatman17



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## ghazi52

PAF museum.. Karachi

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## nomi007

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1012409948776114


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## fatman17

ghazi52 said:


> PAF museum.. Karachi


 
posted previously....


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## nomi007

*best air-force video*




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1477381269193962

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## Reichmarshal

India up to some mischief
For the last 3 weeks PAF is on high alert. Just yesterday it did three hot scrambles as iaf ac violated the 30 km no fly zone ( jointly agreed by both nations).
Iaf ac have been carrying out recon on our positions all this time. India is defiantly up to something which is not good for both nations

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## razgriz19



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## Hell hound

if these pics are of recent nigerian visit then jft block2 wont have have cft


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## Kompromat

Hell hound said:


> if these pics are of recent nigerian visit then jft block2 wont have have cft



There is no need for CFTs.


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## Viking 63

Looking at the Face expressions of Nigerian Air Chief, why the hell he looks so out of zone, like he is there but then again he is not??


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## razgriz19

Viking 63 said:


> Looking at the Face expressions of Nigerian Air Chief, why the hell he looks so out of zone, like he is there but then again he is not??



there is only one picture in which he looks like that, and that's probably because he's listening to the PAF officer.
Not everyone is photogenic

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## fatman17

razgriz19 said:


> View attachment 143871
> 
> View attachment 143872
> 
> 
> View attachment 143873
> 
> 
> View attachment 143874
> 
> 
> View attachment 143871
> 
> 
> View attachment 143872
> 
> 
> View attachment 143873
> 
> 
> View attachment 143874


 
can someone read the serial no on the tail?



Viking 63 said:


> Looking at the Face expressions of Nigerian Air Chief, why the hell he looks so out of zone, like he is there but then again he is not??


 
has not seen such sophistication.....


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## ACE OF THE AIR

fatman17 said:


> can someone read the serial no on the tail?
> 
> 
> 
> has not seen such sophistication.....


Tail no. looks like 10-124


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## MastanKhan

Reichmarshal said:


> India up to some mischief
> For the last 3 weeks PAF is on high alert. Just yesterday it did three hot scrambles as iaf ac violated the 30 km no fly zone ( jointly agreed by both nations).
> Iaf ac have been carrying out recon on our positions all this time. India is defiantly up to something which is not good for both nations



Hi,

They are trying to find the location of our SA batteries---what they do is make a mad dash towards the border---hoping someone in charge would turn on and try to seek a missile lock.

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## Hell hound

Horus said:


> There is no need for CFTs.


but isn't navy looking for block 2 thunders.it would have added some extra loitering time without putting strain on refuelers and extra range wont hurt paf either.


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## ACE OF THE AIR

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> They are trying to find the location of our SA batteries---what they do is make a mad dash towards the border---hoping someone in charge would turn on and try to seek a missile lock.



Do not think Pakistan would make the same mistake as the Arabs did in the 70's

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## nomi007




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## salman-1

By looking at pictures it seems the fuselages of these thunders are just lying on their assembly platforms and no work is being done, as no wires parts or tools are around them. Still PAF doesn't make fuselages in Kaamra. They are made in China. 
Wings , stabilizers and vertical stabilizers are only body parts made in Pakistan They are waiting for the final clearance of block 2 components. I think News for 2 JF-17 blk 2 is true. Even if they are fully assembled then basic flight testing and weapon integration takes at least 3 months

Delays could be due to new engines testing, probably WS-13 OR WS-13A. New Aesa Radars Mil 1750 computers, avionics and other major system testing and certification.

PAF is not in Hurry to induct older technologies, as these birds will be the backbone in next coming years. Dropping FC-20 was a wise decision for saving hard earned money for making Block 2 as comparable to FC-20 or F-16 blk 40/42.

New complex in Nawabshah could be a new assembly line with chinese for mass production to meet foreign and domestic needs. Many countries showed interest without placing any orders. Production and capability required weren't available in block 1 and Kaamra to meet orders. Just convincing for 5-7 aircrafts cant break the mold. (If somebody remembers the news of 5-7 aircraft offer to sri lanka ) Why no orders. Have to wait and see till end of this year for blk 2 variants. 
PAF DOESN'T SIT IDOL in any given time. The lost decade of 90's was not lost at all. All upgrading was done for available fleet. Sanctions gave birth to the avionics factory to make grifo radars and 4 diff systems for the Air force. Like weapons store and management computers. IFF system etc.

As aircraft no 10-124 is standing inside Aircraft manufacturing factory instead of any hanger of squadron. I am sure its being upgraded to blk 2 like 109 we saw with C-802 and SD-10 while launching ceremony of 50th aircraft . This year all the fleet of 50 aircraft will be upgraded without wasting any time and next year will be manufacturing year for blk 2's


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## PakEye

Viking 63 said:


> Looking at the Face expressions of Nigerian Air Chief, why the hell he looks so out of zone, like he is there but then again he is not??



*Only The Perfect Buyer Expressions.*


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## fatman17

*



*
*China Unveils New Short-Range SAM System*
*
Nov. 11, 2014 - 01:33PM | By WENDELL MINNICK *


*ZHUHAI, CHINA* — Aviation Industry Corporation of China unveiled its new PL-9C surface-to-air short-range missile system at Airshow China here.

With a kill range of 400-8,000 meters and an operational altitude of 30-5,000 meters, the new SAM comes in three system components: AF902 fire control system, twin 35mm anti-aircraft guns, and a missile launching vehicle capable of handling four missiles.

The system is road-mobile and uses multi-element infrared passive guidance. The system is a fire-and-forget intercept systems for medium-, low- and very-low-altitude targets, including UAVs, helicopters and fixed-wing aircraft.

The PL-9C is known largely as a short-range air-to-air missile for fighters, specifically the J-7, J-8 and the JF-17.

Airshow China, known officially as the 10 China International Aviation and Aerospace Exhibition, is being held from Nov. 11-16. ■

*Email: wminnick@defensenews.com.*


*great idea for air-base defence.....*


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## hassan1



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## fatman17

*



*
*Air chief visits Zhuhai air show in china *

INP 
November 14, 2014, 11:51 am
*ZHUHAI -* Chief of the Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt visited Zhuhai Air Show (China) at the invitation of Peoples Liberation Army and Air Force (PLAAF). He participated in the opening ceremony of the air show.

He visited the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) contingent which is participating in Zhuhai Air Show – 2014. He also witnessed the static display of JF-17 Thunder. The aircraft is attraction of show and thousands of people including the air chiefs of the various countries are taking keen interest in this co-produced fighter aircraft. He met with the PAF contingent participating in the show and appreciated their involvement and presentation in the show.

He also met with his Chinese counterpart General Ma Xiaotian. Both the dignitaries discussed matters pertaining to professional interest and mutual co-operation between the two Air Forces. They also expressed satisfaction on joint air exercises conducted between the two friendly Air Forces. Other avenues of further enhancing the professional expertise of the personnel of the both Air Forces were discussed.

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## fatman17



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## Najam Khan

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 153053


Regarding PM's visit to PAC, it was required by Kamra to close loops of some old payments. 
Pakistan needs political stability in next few years, we can't afford more hickups.

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## Donatello

Najam Khan said:


> Regarding PM's visit to PAC, it was required by Kamra to close loops of some old payments.
> Pakistan needs political stability in next few years, we can't afford more hickups.



Which is why i am of the opinion let the current government stay. Trust me, you'll see corruption but you will also see money pouring into defense programs.

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## raazh

Donatello said:


> Which is why i am of the opinion let the current government stay. Trust me, you'll see corruption but you will also see money pouring into defense programs.


What guarantee you have that these same crooks will not become the next PM and winners in 2018 Elections also ?? Why do we Pakistani's live in a dream where everything will be OK on its own .. It will not be OK on its own .. Next year it will be Bilawal or Hamza shahbaz with majority seats and no election audit .. Some precedent must be set .. culprits must be PUNISHED .. without that there will be no change .. you can sleep on it for as long as you want ..

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## Najam Khan

@-Topic
I am planning to narrate events of PAF history on blog. In mostly cases I have the pictures in decent sizes.
I'd be happy to increase more points, If anyone interested in helping me drop a PM/profile comment. 

The events (mostly narration with photos) would be relating to PAF operations, could be battles/border-standoff/exercises and aircraft induction (or weapons like AIM120/H2/LGBs etc.) or even airshows etc.



Donatello said:


> Which is why i am of the opinion let the current government stay. Trust me, you'll see *corruption* but you will also see money pouring into defense programs.


Thats a big debate itself...
If its just corruption, Pakistanis may be bear this; but its their promises (with their masters) and poor foreign policy that make country suffer.

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## fatman17

*Pakistan Air Force Mirage*
November 21st, 2014 While on a routine night-time training mission this Mirage crashed near Karachi, killing one pilot, ...


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## fatman17

*



*
*China's Anti-Stealth Radar Comes to Fruition*
*
Nov. 22, 2014 - 03:45AM | By WENDELL MINNICK *

*Can Defeat Stealth? China claims that its JY-26 Skywatch-U 3D long-range air surveillance radar can detect stealth aircraft. (Wendell Minnick/Staff)*

*TAIPEI* — The one great testament to China’s anti-access/area denial efforts were weapon and sensor systems on display at the recent China Airshow in Zhuhai.

One of the most noticeable was the road-mobile JY-26 “Skywatch-U” 3-D long-range air surveillance radar. China had plenty of road-mobile radars on display, but this one claimed a unique capability — “stealth target detection.” This towering radar is a clear symbol of China’s continued desire to locate and destroy stealth aircraft like the B-2 bomber and F-22 and F-35 fighters.

According to a brochure by the East China Research Institute of Electronic Engineering (ECRIEE), this radar “boasts double stealth target detection virtues thanks to operation in UHF [ultra high frequency] band and owning of large power-aperture product” for both air breathing targets and tactical missiles. The range of the UHF radar is not cited on the brochure, but other details are, including electronic counter-countermeasures and a complex digital active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar capable of tracking 500 targets.

An unusual feature is the bubble surface of the radar, which looks similar to Lockheed Martin’s offering in the Three Dimensional Expeditionary Long-Range Radar (3DELRR) competition, which Raytheon won. The surface of both radars is analogous to bubble wrap used to ship breakable items in the mail. These bubbles are transmit receive modules (TRM), but the JY-26 has fewer TRMs then the Lockheed 3DELRR, said Richard Fisher, senior fellow on Asian military affairs, International Assessment and Strategy Center.

Press reports of an alleged Chinese cyber espionage strike against Lockheed surfaced in April 2009, Fisher said. “Barring further US and Lockheed disclosures, we cannot know whether China stole critical radar information in addition to other programs like the F-35 stealth fighter.”

However, John Wise, a UK-based radar specialist, said the Lockheed 3DELRR is a “G-band (5.4GHz) radar and has nothing whatsoever in common with the JY-26, other than shape.” If JY-26 has true anti-stealth aircraft detection and tracking capability, it would need to operate down the bottom end of the UHF band (250-350MHz), he said.

“The elements [TMR] might be so shaped because they may offer circular polarization, which could have benefits for an air detection radar, and guesstimate the elements are half wavelength in dimension,” he said.
In 2011, an image of a larger version of the JY-26 appeared on Chinese-language military blogs that had twice the number of TMRs than the Lockheed radar, but the JY-26 variant on display at Zhuhai had fewer, which suggests the JY-26 at Zhuhai is either a lower-cost model or its developer has improved its software to allow for fewer TRMs, Fisher said.

“Nevertheless, the JY-26 poses a real threat to US and allied air forces and also demonstrates China’s capacity for developing electronic warfare systems that are competitive with the latest US systems,” Fisher said.

The timing of China’s cyber espionage and the appearance of the JY-26 suggest a painful question, Fisher said.

“Did China successfully steal data from Lockheed Martin’s radar shop that is now going to be used to better prosecute Lockheed’s F-35 fighter?”

Other experts, such as Wise, caution that common radar configurations are not necessarily evidence of espionage because similar engineering objectives could lead to similar solutions. Fisher said he believes the Lockheed radar was compromised by Chinese espionage and the evidence is the eerie similarity between two radars that use unique TMRs.

According to a Nov. 10 China-based article in the Global Times, a Shandong Province-based JY-26 recently monitored an F-22 flying to South Korea. Separated by the Yellow Sea, Shandong’s coastline is 400 kilometers from Kunsan Air Base and Osan Air Base, South Korea.

*Who would be in the market for the JY-26? For one, Pakistan has to contend with India’s stealth fighter program with Russia, and Iran must deal with Israel’s planned procurement of the F-35 fighter*.

Then there is the continuing threat many nations face from US B-2 bombers, F-22 fighters and eventually the F-35. ■
*E-mail: wminnick@defensenews.com.*

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## fatman17



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## fatman17

CX-1 Cruise Missile....


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## nomi007



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## ACE OF THE AIR

nomi007 said:


>


Are you saying there is some sort of chance to see this in PAF?


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## nomi007

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Are you saying there is some sort of chance to see this in PAF?


paf evaluated both rafael and typhoon in 2006
but too much cost was major issue


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## Donatello

nomi007 said:


> paf evaluated both rafael and typhoon in 2006
> but too much cost was major issue



Rafale was evaluated in 2002/03 i guess.


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## Sulman Badshah

Donatello said:


> Rafale was evaluated in 2002/03 i guess.


in 2006 ...


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## fatman17

PAF has purchased a second-hand Gulfstream G450.


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## aqdus

nomi007 said:


>


in the end IT'S ALL A DREAM

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## aqdus

Does anybody know about JF-17 Block 2 long time no see


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## fatman17

aqdus said:


> in the end IT'S ALL A DREAM


 
yep-money,money,money, honey.....


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## quickloanz

Every time a Mirage crash, and take precious lives in the process, the words of a French delegate who visited MRF buzz in my ears


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## hassan1



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## HRK

Pakistan has acquired LY-80 SAM sys .from China .....

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## Kompromat

HRK said:


> Pakistan has acquired LY-80 SAM sys .from China .....
> 
> View attachment 157955



Just 3 batteries means that its for parameter defense of HVTs.


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## Kompromat

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 156404
> CX-1 Cruise Missile....



Sir is it linked to PAF in anyway?


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## khanasifm

HRK said:


> Pakistan has acquired LY-80 SAM sys .from China .....
> 
> View attachment 157955




ibis_150 is a 130km ranger radar which is also tied to sky dragon 50 Sam I.e sd-10 Sam version with 50 km Sam range

here its looks like integrated with ly-80 ?.

see Jane's defense

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## fatman17

Horus said:


> Sir is it linked to PAF in anyway?


 
its an option for JFT.


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## Kompromat

fatman17 said:


> its an option for JFT.



i don't think it can carry it.


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## HRK

Horus said:


> Just 3 batteries means that its for parameter defense of HVTs.



might be or might it be possible that its initial ordered batch as number of radar vehicles are '8' & as per sys requirements only one radar vehicle is required in conjection with Tracking & Radar guidance vehicles.

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## raahaat7

sirs @fatman17 , @Horus since yesterday i am not able to read any posts on this website. The content written by posters is not visible to me. Please help me overcome this problem. I have been coming to this site almost everyday since many years. I feel like handicaped all of a sudden. Help!!

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## raahaat7

@fatman17 @Horus even my own post is not visible to me. Has something changed on this site like my previlages having been curtailed. Will someone tell me what is going on.
Mods please help me?!


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## Tacticool

quickloanz said:


> Every time a Mirage crash, and take precious lives in the process, the words of a French delegate who visited MRF buzz in my ears


What were those words?


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## fatman17

raahaat7 said:


> sirs @fatman17 , @Horus since yesterday i am not able to read any posts on this website. The content written by posters is not visible to me. Please help me overcome this problem. I have been coming to this site almost everyday since many years. I feel like handicaped all of a sudden. Help!!


 
only mods can help...


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## fatman17

*Attrition*
*Pakistan Air Force Mirage 5*
December 1st, 2014 This aircraft crashed in the Athara Hazari area of Punjab’s Jhang district after the pilot had ejected,


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## Thorough Pro

2nd within 10 days!!! Mirages have now decided to retire themselves.

Thank GOD pilot ejected. 



fatman17 said:


> *Attrition*
> *Pakistan Air Force Mirage 5*
> December 1st, 2014 This aircraft crashed in the Athara Hazari area of Punjab’s Jhang district after the pilot had ejected,


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## fatman17

Thorough Pro said:


> 2nd within 10 days!!! Mirages have now decided to retire themselves.
> 
> Thank GOD pilot ejected.


 
this was a Rose-III i think - tactical strike.


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## fatman17

dil mangay more.....

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## Thorough Pro

that's bad, losing a tac strike asset, we are already short of.



fatman17 said:


> this was a Rose-III i think - tactical strike.


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## fatman17

Air Platforms
*IDEAS 2014: Nigeria 'close to signing up' for JF-17*
*Farhan Bokhari, Karachi* - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

01 December 2014

Nigeria is close to signing up for one or two squadrons of JF-17s, according to Pakistani officials. (IHS/Patrick Allen)

The Nigerian Air Force (NAF) is close to finalising an order for the purchase of one or two squadrons of the JF-17 Thunder fighter aircraft co-produced by Pakistan and China, a senior Pakistani Ministry of Defence official told _IHS Jane's_ on 2 December.

Speaking at the International Defence Exhibition and Seminar (IDEAS) 2014 in Karachi, the official said the NAF finalised its recommendation for the purchase of 25-40 JF-17s after NAF chief air marshal Adesola Nunayon Amosu visited Pakistan in October. AM Amosu's engagements in Pakistan included a visit to the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) at Kamra, north of Islamabad, where the JF-17 is manufactured.

*



*
*PAF chief elected Fellow of Royal Aeronautical Society *

APP 
November 30, 2014


*KARACHI* – Pakistan Air Force Chief of the Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt has been elected Fellow of the Royal Aeronautical Society in a ceremony held at the PAF Air War College Faisal here on Sunday.

Pakistan Society President Air Marshal (Retd) Salim Arshad, handed over the Diploma of Fellowship to Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt, said a press release issued by PAF. While addressing the ceremony, Air Marshal Salim Arshad hoped that the air chief's personal involvement in the work of the society would enhance the standards in all aerospace disciplines in Pakistan.

The award of Fellowship to the Air Chief by the prestigious Royal Aeronautical Society is the recognition of his outstanding contribution to the Aerospace Industry. This award has not only elevated his stature but also brought laurels to the country in general and Pakistan Air Force in particular.

Addressing the audience, the air chief said, “I thank the Royal Aeronautical Society for electing me as fellow of the society. It's almost one and a half century that the society has been contributing significantly towards aviation industry like it did in World War II by putting together aviation experts to advise for advancements. Few years ago the society had started simulating emergencies to devise emergency procedures for the safer future of aviators.

As Pakistan has embarked upon the journey of indigenisation by producing aircraft's like K-8 and JF-17 (Thunder), so she has to take advantage of the concept of integrating think tanks and experts of aviation.” On this occasion the Royal Aeronautical Society also displayed a presentation on the evolution of aeronautical industry during the last 100 years.

The ceremony was attended by senior officers of the Armed Forces, Civil Aviation Authority, senior executives of Airlines, Members of the Royal Aeronautical Society in Pakistan and prominent people from all walks of life.


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## dexter

JF-17 BLOCK 2 4X SD-10A BVR - 2X PL-5EII - 2X - 1000lb PGMs

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## fatman17



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## fatman17



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## fatman17

Air Platforms
*Update: Pakistan prepares air strikes in response to Peshawar school attack*
*Farhan Bokhari, Islamabad* - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
21 December 2014

The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) finalised plans on 18 December to carry out fresh bombing raids targeting suspected Taliban militant camps across the tribal areas close to the country's border with Afghanistan.
A Pakistani defence ministry official told _IHS Jane's_ *the attacks will mainly be carried out by Lockheed Martin F-16 fighter aircraft* and will be in retaliation for the Taliban's 16 December attack on an army-run school in Peshawar in which at least 148 people - including 132 children - were killed.

The Taliban claimed responsibility for the attack by up to nine militants while it was still under way.


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## monitor

fatman17 said:


> Air Platforms
> *Update: Pakistan prepares air strikes in response to Peshawar school attack*
> *Farhan Bokhari, Islamabad* - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
> 21 December 2014
> 
> The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) finalised plans on 18 December to carry out fresh bombing raids targeting suspected Taliban militant camps across the tribal areas close to the country's border with Afghanistan.
> A Pakistani defence ministry official told _IHS Jane's_ *the attacks will mainly be carried out by Lockheed Martin F-16 fighter aircraft* and will be in retaliation for the Taliban's 16 December attack on an army-run school in Peshawar in which at least 148 people - including 132 children - were killed.
> 
> The Taliban claimed responsibility for the attack by up to nine militants while it was still under way.



I am not finding any thing new air camping are going on but it will be significant if Pakistan air force target TTP leadership hiding insight Afghanistan .btw whats about JF-17 aren't they able to drop PGM ?

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## alimobin memon

monitor said:


> I am not finding any thing new air camping are going on but it will be significant if Pakistan air force target TTP leadership hiding insight Afghanistan .btw whats about JF-17 aren't they able to drop PGM ?


I believe jf17 does not have PGM capability right now its in development all those PGM shown on air shows are just to clear what jf17 armament would be. One of the reasons I believe Nigeria has gone for migs again.


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## fatman17

alimobin memon said:


> I believe jf17 does not have PGM capability right now its in development all those PGM shown on air shows are just to clear what jf17 armament would be. One of the reasons I believe Nigeria has gone for migs again.


 
how so.....


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## alimobin memon

fatman17 said:


> how so.....


My knowledge says this is right time for any jet to prove its capabilities and increase its experience. Pakistan airforce is using f16 to bomb these terrorists not jf17 if they had be using there had be some pics. How come only f16 pics are shown. See mate look at euro fighter typhoons its first tranche had basic AD capabilities no bvr even no GBU-24, GPS-guided weapons, ALARM, Paveway III & IV, Rafael LITENING III all of these AG capabilities. After the tranche 2 program initiated the tranche 1 are being upgraded. My point is eurofighters have been seen with so many A/G payloads no doubt but initial released pics with huge payload were all for testing phases and training no operational readiness was recorded. since few years ago ef2000 has been used for AG capabilities by 2009.

So jf17 is still not cleared for A/G capabilities all we have seen is dumb MK series bombs which are not good for counter insurgency. JF17 is not been used for it rather AA patrols might have been what counted for service hours of jf17 or maybe little for clearing terrorists by dumb bombs. NO PGM's I am telling you. I hope you got my point.


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## alimobin memon

CAC/PAC JF-17 Thunder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Updated payload and added CM 400AKG to A to Surface missiles.


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## fatman17

alimobin memon said:


> My knowledge says this is right time for any jet to prove its capabilities and increase its experience. Pakistan airforce is using f16 to bomb these terrorists not jf17 if they had be using there had be some pics. How come only f16 pics are shown. See mate look at euro fighter typhoons its first tranche had basic AD capabilities no bvr even no GBU-24, GPS-guided weapons, ALARM, Paveway III & IV, Rafael LITENING III all of these AG capabilities. After the tranche 2 program initiated the tranche 1 are being upgraded. My point is eurofighters have been seen with so many A/G payloads no doubt but initial released pics with huge payload were all for testing phases and training no operational readiness was recorded. since few years ago ef2000 has been used for AG capabilities by 2009.
> 
> So jf17 is still not cleared for A/G capabilities all we have seen is dumb MK series bombs which are not good for counter insurgency. JF17 is not been used for it rather AA patrols might have been what counted for service hours of jf17 or maybe little for clearing terrorists by dumb bombs. NO PGM's I am telling you. I hope you got my point.


 
how do you know JFT is not being used against militants. just bcuz you hav'nt seen any pictures. thats rather quite lame explaination. PAF does not disclose which platform it is using for these ops. even the F-16s use is not officially confirmed by the PAF. its based on speculation of the media and us.


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## Bratva

fatman17 said:


> how do you know JFT is not being used against militants. just bcuz you hav'nt seen any pictures. thats rather quite lame explaination. *PAF does not disclose which platform it is using for these ops. even the F-16s use is not officially confirmed by the PAF. its based on speculation of the media and us*.



I hope you are being sarcastic, not serious. Thanks to Alan warnes extensive articles. we know which platform and equipemnt are being used.

And since neither WMD-7 nor PGMs are integrated with Block-1 JF-17 besides the weak structure prevents it from carrying heavy loads, that's why wing roots were strengthen in Block-2 (A fact admitted by Project director itself), how they can participate in bombing runs ?


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## HRK

Bratva said:


> I hope you are being sarcastic, not serious. Thanks to Alan warnes extensive articles. we know which platform and equipemnt are being used.
> 
> And since neither WMD-7 nor PGMs are integrated with Block-1 JF-17 besides the weak structure prevents it from carrying heavy loads, that's why wing roots were strengthen in Block-2 (A fact admitted by Project director itself), how they can participate in bombing runs ?



In current Zhuhai airshow one of the PAF delegation member in a brief interview confirm the employment of JF-17 in FATA. (I think that was appeared in Defence News article, trying to find it)


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## Bratva

HRK said:


> In current Zhuhai airshow one of the PAF delegation member in an brief interview confirm the employment of JF-17 in FATA. (I think that was appeared in Defence News article, trying to find it)



Employed as dive bombers for dropping dumb bombs. 500 or 1000 pound bombs not PGM

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## fatman17

* 
Arms imports to Pakistan, 2013-2013*

Note: Information is provided on deals with deliveries or orders made during the period specified and covers major conventional weapons, as defined by SIPRI. The 'No. delivered' and the 'Year(s) of deliveries' columns refer to all deliveries since the beginning of the contract. For more information, see
Sources and Methods
* 
Supplier Recipient No. ordered Weapon designation Weapon description Year of order Year(s) of deliveries No. delivered
Recipient Involvement Comments*


China Pakistan (50) JF-17 Thunder/FC-1 FGA aircraft 1999 2007 - 2013 (50) Yes JF-17 Block-1 version; developed for Pakistan; incl production of components and assembly in Pakistan; incl 8 mainly for testing and first 42 production version ordered 2009 for $800 m.

China Pakistan (100) C-802/CSS-N-8 Anti-ship missile 2008 2012 - 2013 (20) For JF-17 combat aircraft

China Pakistan (50) CM-400AKG Anti-ship missile 2010 2012 - 2013 (20) For JF-17 combat aircraft

China Pakistan (800) PL-12/SD-10 BVRAAM 2006 2010 - 2013 (200) For JF-17 and possibly modernized Mirage-3/5 combat aircraft

China Pakistan (750) LS-3 Guided bomb 2008 2010 - 2013 (275) For JF-17 combat aircraft

China Pakistan (1000) LS-6-500 Guided bomb 2008 2010 - 2013 (250) For JF-17 combat aircraft

China Pakistan (750) LT-2 Guided bomb 2008 2010 - 2013 (250) For JF-17 combat aircraft

China Pakistan (1000) PL-5E SRAAM 2006 2009 - 2013 (360) For JF-17 combat aircraft; PL-5E-II version

China Pakistan (200) WMD-7 Aircraft EO system 2008 2009 - 2013 (50) For JF-17 combat aircraft

© SIPRI 17 March 2014. For terms and conditions of use see
Terms and conditions of use — www.sipri.org


*why would PAF spend its meagre resources to buy munitions it cannot deploy and use.....dosnt make any sense does it....*

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## razgriz19

fatman17 said:


> *
> Arms imports to Pakistan, 2013-2013*
> 
> Note: Information is provided on deals with deliveries or orders made during the period specified and covers major conventional weapons, as defined by SIPRI. The 'No. delivered' and the 'Year(s) of deliveries' columns refer to all deliveries since the beginning of the contract. For more information, see
> Sources and Methods
> *
> Supplier Recipient No. ordered Weapon designation Weapon description Year of order Year(s) of deliveries No. delivered
> Recipient Involvement Comments*
> 
> 
> China Pakistan (50) JF-17 Thunder/FC-1 FGA aircraft 1999 2007 - 2013 (50) Yes JF-17 Block-1 version; developed for Pakistan; incl production of components and assembly in Pakistan; incl 8 mainly for testing and first 42 production version ordered 2009 for $800 m.
> 
> China Pakistan (100) C-802/CSS-N-8 Anti-ship missile 2008 2012 - 2013 (20) For JF-17 combat aircraft
> 
> China Pakistan (50) CM-400AKG Anti-ship missile 2010 2012 - 2013 (20) For JF-17 combat aircraft
> 
> China Pakistan (800) PL-12/SD-10 BVRAAM 2006 2010 - 2013 (200) For JF-17 and possibly modernized Mirage-3/5 combat aircraft
> 
> China Pakistan (750) LS-3 Guided bomb 2008 2010 - 2013 (275) For JF-17 combat aircraft
> 
> China Pakistan (1000) LS-6-500 Guided bomb 2008 2010 - 2013 (250) For JF-17 combat aircraft
> 
> China Pakistan (750) LT-2 Guided bomb 2008 2010 - 2013 (250) For JF-17 combat aircraft
> 
> China Pakistan (1000) PL-5E SRAAM 2006 2009 - 2013 (360) For JF-17 combat aircraft; PL-5E-II version
> 
> China Pakistan (200) WMD-7 Aircraft EO system 2008 2009 - 2013 (50) For JF-17 combat aircraft
> 
> © SIPRI 17 March 2014. For terms and conditions of use see
> Terms and conditions of use — www.sipri.org
> 
> 
> *why would PAF spend its meagre resources to buy munitions it cannot deploy and use.....dosnt make any sense does it....*



still, have yet to see a JF-17 dropping a PGM on talibunnies. 
There was just one video released showing testing of the bomb drop, and that was probably by Chinese as well.
still waiting for something from PAF


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## SipahSalar

Bratva said:


> And since neither WMD-7 nor PGMs are integrated with Block-1 JF-17 besides the weak structure prevents it from carrying heavy loads, that's why wing roots were strengthen in Block-2 (A fact admitted by Project director itself), how they can participate in bombing runs ?



What are you talking about? JF-17s performed bombing runs during High Mark 2010. Even that wasn't its first ground attack mission.


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## alimobin memon

fatman17 said:


> how do you know JFT is not being used against militants. just bcuz you hav'nt seen any pictures. thats rather quite lame explaination. PAF does not disclose which platform it is using for these ops. even the F-16s use is not officially confirmed by the PAF. its based on speculation of the media and us.


f16 is confirmed and jf17 by the way you haven't read what I said carefully and with focus. Dumb bombs are only proved to be tested in exercises at Very low altitude. there is CM400AKG equipped jf17 pic, C802 equipped jf17 pic and pl5,sd10 pics how come no PGM equipped pics. And HIGH marks only showed dive bombing which is crazy and stupid to do with insurgents who have_pecheneg machine guns which can do extensive damage to the low flying jets and jf17 using dumb bombs requires to be flying very low. Let me explain it to you in a better way in WW2 soviets used SMG,SNIPER (Mosin NAgant) and LMG combination of group of comrades to fire at aircrafts coming low to drop dumb bombs and the group successfully had good kill ratio. Even our cobra's are used at altitudes higher than there actual limit which makes the airframe vibrate. Do you know why cobra's fight at high altitude because they are vulnerable to use against TTP's ZPU-1 and Pecheneg machine guns. 

Air force would have been using it if and only if WMD 7 is operational and PGM's are used. 

One more thing after ordering and inducting weapons they are first passed through phases of clearance for the airforce then they are operationalized. Which I think is that they are passing the phases not yet operational. im talking about WMD 7 and PGM integration_

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## Bratva

fatman17 said:


> *
> Arms imports to Pakistan, 2013-2013*
> 
> Note: Information is provided on deals with deliveries or orders made during the period specified and covers major conventional weapons, as defined by SIPRI. The 'No. delivered' and the 'Year(s) of deliveries' columns refer to all deliveries since the beginning of the contract. For more information, see
> Sources and Methods
> *
> Supplier Recipient No. ordered Weapon designation Weapon description Year of order Year(s) of deliveries No. delivered
> Recipient Involvement Comments*
> 
> 
> China Pakistan (50) JF-17 Thunder/FC-1 FGA aircraft 1999 2007 - 2013 (50) Yes JF-17 Block-1 version; developed for Pakistan; incl production of components and assembly in Pakistan; incl 8 mainly for testing and first 42 production version ordered 2009 for $800 m.
> 
> China Pakistan (100) C-802/CSS-N-8 Anti-ship missile 2008 2012 - 2013 (20) For JF-17 combat aircraft
> 
> China Pakistan (50) CM-400AKG Anti-ship missile 2010 2012 - 2013 (20) For JF-17 combat aircraft
> 
> China Pakistan (800) PL-12/SD-10 BVRAAM 2006 2010 - 2013 (200) For JF-17 and possibly modernized Mirage-3/5 combat aircraft
> 
> China Pakistan (750) LS-3 Guided bomb 2008 2010 - 2013 (275) For JF-17 combat aircraft
> 
> China Pakistan (1000) LS-6-500 Guided bomb 2008 2010 - 2013 (250) For JF-17 combat aircraft
> 
> China Pakistan (750) LT-2 Guided bomb 2008 2010 - 2013 (250) For JF-17 combat aircraft
> 
> China Pakistan (1000) PL-5E SRAAM 2006 2009 - 2013 (360) For JF-17 combat aircraft; PL-5E-II version
> 
> China Pakistan (200) WMD-7 Aircraft EO system 2008 2009 - 2013 (50) For JF-17 combat aircraft
> 
> © SIPRI 17 March 2014. For terms and conditions of use see
> Terms and conditions of use — www.sipri.org
> 
> 
> *why would PAF spend its meagre resources to buy munitions it cannot deploy and use.....dosnt make any sense does it....*




I would take SIPRI data with a pinch of salt. We don't know how Sipri collected this info and veracity of it. If such munitions (SD-10 and the PGM's) were in PAF inventory, wouldn't they display it with JF-17 in IDEAS? Last 3-4 IDEAS exhibitions are testament to this fact. They showed MAR-1 training round because it was in the INVENTORY. 

And most of these PGM including WMD-7 can't be used on block-1 unless they go through MLU and wing strengthening measures.

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## syedali73

Bratva said:


> I would take SIPRI data with a pinch of salt. We don't know how Sipri collected this info and veracity of it. If such munitions (SD-10 and the PGM's) were in PAF inventory, wouldn't they display it with JF-17 in IDEAS? Last 3-4 IDEAS exhibitions are testament to this fact. They showed MAR-1 training round because it was in the INVENTORY.
> 
> And most of these PGM including WMD-7 can't be used on block-1 unless they go through MLU and wing strengthening measures.


Not only SIPRI but anything coming from the PAF officials should also be taken with more-than-a-pinch of salt. I have simply stopped buying anything from PAF for only Allah knows if they are telling the truth or just spreading disinformation.

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## Hurter

Is Nigerian Airforce buying JF-17 or not?


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## alimobin memon

they chose russian jets


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## Bratva

syedali73 said:


> Not only SIPRI but anything coming from the PAF officials should also be taken with more-than-a-pinch of salt. I have simply stopped buying anything from PAF for only Allah knows if they are telling the truth or just spreading disinformation.



Exactly Syed sahab. The mentality of suppressing failures and showing everything is hunky dory was hallmark of our Missile program. Same mentality has infected or spread across major defence program of other branches of armed forces. Be it JF-17, Al Khalid or the Navy frigate and submarine programs.

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## Rajput_Pakistani

I think usage of F-16s and other US origin equipment during WoT has more to do with Coalition Support Fund then any other reason.


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## Bratva

Junaid B said:


> Is Nigerian Airforce buying JF-17 or not?



No they are not.


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## Donatello

Bratva said:


> I would take SIPRI data with a pinch of salt. We don't know how Sipri collected this info and veracity of it. If such munitions (SD-10 and the PGM's) were in PAF inventory, wouldn't they display it with JF-17 in IDEAS? Last 3-4 IDEAS exhibitions are testament to this fact. They showed MAR-1 training round because it was in the INVENTORY.
> 
> And most of these PGM including WMD-7 can't be used on block-1 unless they go through MLU and wing strengthening measures.



It was displayed with the full complement at Dubai and Zhuhai air show. I don't know why you are hell bent on disagreeing, but in any case, PAF would know the most.....and i don't know why they would be eager to reveal the tiny nits and bits. LGBs might not be fully ready, but they are integrated and can be accepted right now. The main issue is creating their individual weapon profile.....that is tedious and resource consuming....and it will carry on even if there was JF-17 BLK XII

Only a stupid Airforce would purchase CM400/C802 just to store them in bunkers.

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## Reichmarshal

Bratva said:


> Exactly Syed sahab. The mentality of suppressing failures and showing everything is hunky dory was hallmark of our Missile program. Same mentality has infected or spread across major defence program of other branches of armed forces. Be it JF-17, Al Khalid or the Navy frigate and submarine programs.



All the people in the know, know exactly the state of each n every prog. They r the ppl that matter. No one is under any sort of illusion, they know where exactly they stand regarding all n sundry.
Info. Is available on a need to know basis only. Not ment for xyz on this n that chat room


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## Bratva

Donatello said:


> It was displayed with the full complement at Dubai and Zhuhai air show. I don't know why you are hell bent on disagreeing, but in any case, PAF would know the most.....and i don't know why they would be eager to reveal the tiny nits and bits. LGBs might not be fully ready, but they are integrated and can be accepted right now. The main issue is creating their individual weapon profile.....that is tedious and resource consuming....and it will carry on even if there was JF-17 BLK XII
> 
> Only a stupid Airforce would purchase CM400/C802 just to store them in bunkers.



There is a difference b/w Chinese inventory and Pakistan inventory. I disagree with Pakistani side of version, assuming Block-1 is capable of so and so things which even Project director has refuted in b/w the lines until Block-2 upgrades are applied to them.

Once block-2 arrives, such goodies would come in pakistani inventory is the gist of my argument.



And unless Project is being run on PAF own resources, We would not question every nit and bits and beside look at how we and our neighbors behave on projects run on tax payer money. Heck, check F-35 thread, how every nit bits are shared by Project director of F-35. I'm amazed and impressed by such professionalism and is the standard of how Public accountability should be held. 



Reichmarshal said:


> All the people in the know, know exactly the state of each n every prog. They r the ppl that matter. No one is under any sort of illusion, they know where exactly they stand regarding all n sundry.
> Info. Is available on a need to know basis only. Not ment for xyz on this n that chat room



Are these projects being funded by people in know or by Taxpayer money ? If former your argument holds, if it's latter, your arguments fails. The amount of accountability F-35 projects projects makes me wonder sometimes as if JF-17 is a 6th Generation fighter being produced and info has to be kept under wraps most of the time

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## alimobin memon

Why the hell is jf17 page showing 3400kg payload and removing the cm 400AKG missile for Air to surface missile. The information is utterly old. as far as I know most of the international delegates who come to air shows and ideas like expo's look for the weaponry of choice for the country they first look at wikipedia. it may not be best source for us as we have some abc of weaponry but basic people refer wikipedia. Do something PDF elite members !


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## razgriz19

No. 18 Squadron video.
dont know if posted here earlier or not

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## fatman17



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## fatman17

*



*
*PAF carrying out precise operations against terrorists: air chief *

APP 
December 30, 2014
ISLAMABAD: Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt on Monday said that the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) was very clear-minded about its targets and along with Pakistan Army was carrying out categorical and precise operations against terrorists and anti-state elements.

“We are targeting the hideouts of terrorists, weapon-dumping sites, logistics and all places from where terrorists are causing damages to the country,” he said while talking to APP after the launching ceremony of two PAF books titled “History of Pakistan Air Force (1999-2013)” and “Sentinels in the Sky”, at the Air Headquarters.

“PAF would not sit idle unless we completely eliminate all the places from where the terrorists were operating against the nation and the country,” the air chief said.

He said that PAF has been transformed into a new force during the last 15 years and equipped with modern hardware and training facilities.

While addressing the books launching ceremony, attended by former air chiefs, a large number of PAF serving/retired officers, families of martyrs and war veterans, the air Chief said, “While keeping pace with the demands of a compelling future, we can never be oblivious to what our predecessors achieved in the past. The extraordinary sacrifices rendered by our great heroes, while guarding the aerial frontiers of our beloved motherland, will always remain a source of inspiration for all of us.”

“Ever since the birth of PAF, our evolving annals have chronicled many an occasion when we were put to the test, but manfully rose to each challenge. The nation salutes its valiant sons who either attained the lofty station of martyrdom, or returned home with pride as Ghazi. For us they are all heroes who deserve our enduring gratitude and respect,” he added.

“In our rich history the past fifteen years merit a special significance as the era entailed the need for replacing our aging arsenal and aligning ourselves along the contours of the future air power employment across the entire range of conflict, from sub-conventional to the strategic. Ably led by my predecessors, PAF met each challenge and has transformed itself into a modern air force of 21st century,” he said.

Tahir Rafique Butt said that throughout this era, the air force gained strength from a process of continuity when each successive leadership built on the achievement of its predecessor.

“We take pride that it was in this timeframe that PAF also earned the distinction of being the first air force to co-produce its own combat aircraft,” he added.

Speaking on the occasion, the war veterans and families of martyrs highly appreciated the humble endeavour made by PAF in recognising their sacrifices made for the country. They thanked the air chief for arranging such a memorable event in their honour, which would go a long way in their lives.

“History of Pakistan Air Force: Entering the New Century” is the fourth volume in the sequel of PAF history books which encapsulates the official account of PAF from 1999-2013. The official history of PAF till 1998 has already been documented in previous three volumes.

The book is written by Air Commodore (r) Qadeer Hashmi who has also served as the director of media affairs at the Air Headquarters.

As a writer the officer has already co-authored a famous book titled “The Aviation City”.

“Sentinels in the Sky” summarises the heroic deeds of PAF’s personnel who were awarded gallantry awards for displaying extraordinary valour during Indo-Pak wars of 1965 and 1971. The book is co-authored by Colonel Azam Qadri (r) and Group Captain Muhammad Ali.

Colonel Azam (r) had a distinguished career of over 25 years in the army. As a writer the officer has authored “What more can a soldier desire”, a famous book on Major Shabbir (Shaheed).

Co-author Group Captain Muhammad Ali is a serving officer of PAF and has more than 25 years of commissioned service.

In his previous literary endeavours, he has contributed a large number of articles for various national and international magazines and newspapers.

At the end of the ceremony, the chief guest presented the books to former air chiefs, present on the occasion.

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## Devil Soul

*PAF transformed into a modern force of the 21st Century: Air Chief*
December 30, 2014, 12:00 am/ 2 Comments
ISLAMABAD- Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt said that the Pakistan Air Force has been transformed into a modern force of the twenty first century.

He was addressing the launching ceremony of two books: History of Pakistan Air Force and Sentinels in the Sky, at the Air Headquarters in Islamabad on Monday. 

The Air Chief Marshal said the aging arsenal of the air force has been replaced with modern and high tech equipment in the last fifteen years.

He said the Air Force has also earned the distinction of producing its own combat aircraft JF-17.

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## nomi007



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## hassan1



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## IrbiS

hassan1 said:


> View attachment 179882


Could you kindly try to look for their soft copies in near future?

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## nomi007



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## PakEye

nomi007 said:


> View attachment 179914


unique picture from which occasion ?

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## IrbiS

pakeye said:


> unique picture from which occasion ?


Should be Al-Saqoor

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## IrbiS



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## IrbiS

World Air Forces 2015 FLIGHT International

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## HRK

HM King Hamad receives PAF Air Chief





Manama, Jan. 26 (BNA)-- His Majesty King Hamad bin Isa Al Khalifa received at Safriya Palace today the Air Chief of Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt.

The Pakistani official conveyed to HM the King the greetings of Pakistani President Mamnoon Hussain and Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif as well as their best wishes of further progress and prosperity to Bahrain and its people.

HM the King welcomed the Pakistani military commander and asked him to convey his greetings to the Pakistani President and Premier as well as his best wishes of more progress and prosperity to the Pakistani people.

HM the King took pride in the distinguished level of bilateral relations of friendship and cooperation and their progress in various fields. He also voiced Bahrain's keenness to further boost cooperation with Pakistan mainly in the military and defence field.

HM King Hamad underlined the importance of exchanging such visits and maintaining consultation and coordination to further promote bilateral cooperation for the best interests of both countries. He also discussed with the Pakistani official regional and international issues of common concern.
=================================

*PAF chief visits Bahrain defence HQ*

ISLAMABAD - Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force, visited the General Headquarters of Bahrain Defence Forces on Monday.

He is visiting Bahrain on the official invitation of Royal Bahrain Air Force. On his arrival, he was presented with the Guard of Honour by a smartly turned out contingent.

The Air Chief called on Field Marshal Khalifa bin Ahmad Al-Khalifa, Commander-in-Chief of Bahrain Defence Forces. The Air Chief also called on Brig General Hamad Bin Abdullah Al-Khalifa, Commander Royal Bahrain Air Force.

During the meetings, the matters pertaining to mutual professional interest came under discussion. They also expressed satisfaction on the current level of cooperation between the two Air Forces and agreed to explore new avenues to enhance bilateral professional cooperation.

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## Najam Khan

hassan1 said:


> View attachment 179882


Few of my digital illustration artwork (on 1971 war) and PAF historic photos are published in this book "Sentinels in the sky". Attached is its acknowledgements page.

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## Windjammer

*K-8 Over Centre Point, Karachi.*

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## fatman17

Najam Khan said:


> Few of my digital illustration artwork (on 1971 war) and PAF historic photos are published in this book "Sentinels in the sky". Attached is its acknowledgements page.



Nice job sir

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## fatman17

Air-Launched Weapons

Pakistan tests Ra'ad ALCM

Rahul Udoshi, Bangalore and James Hardy, London - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

02 February 2015

Pakistan test-fired its Ra'ad (Haatf 8) air-launched cruise missile (ALCM) on 2 February, according to an Inter-Services Public Relations (ISPR) statement. Source: ISPR

Pakistan successfully tested what it described as the "indigenously developed" Ra'ad air-launched cruise missile (ALCM) on 2 February, according to an Inter-Services Public Relations (ISPR) statement.

The 4.85 m-long, nuclear-capable Ra'ad was launched from an undisclosed air platform and was the fifth successful test firing to be announced. All previous tests, the most recent of which was on 31 May 2012, were conducted using an upgraded Dassault Mirage III ROSE aircraft.

The 350 km-range missile enables Pakistan to achieve "strategic standoff capability" on land and at sea, the Pakistan Army said.

Lieutenant General Zubair Mahmood Hayat, director general of the Strategic Plans Division, described it as a major step towards strengthening Pakistan's full spectrum credible minimum deterrence. This is aimed at achieving strategic stability in the region, he added.

The test took place two days after India tested a canister-based version of its nuclear-capable Agni 5 missile, which has a range of 5,000 km.

COMMENT

IHS Jane's Air Launched Weapons describes the Ra'ad (also known as the Hatf 8 or Hatf VIII) as "part of Pakistan's wide-reaching strategic missile development programme that includes short-, medium-, and intermediate-range ballistic missiles and ground-launched cruise missiles".

Air Launched Weapons also notes that the Ra'ad bears a resemblance to several proposed South African stand-off weapon projects such as MUPSOW and Torgos, and that Pakistan and South Africa have previously worked together in advanced weapons development. "Kentron (now Denel) has already supplied its Raptor powered glide bomb to the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) and the extension of that relationship to include more advanced weapons would seem to be a logical step," it notes.

The first Ra'ad test launch was announced on 25 August 2007. It was conducted over the Rawalpindi test range. Pakistan television footage showed the missile under a Mirage IIIEA ROSE-1 during take-off and in flight. Missile release and engine start were shown, followed by in-flight filming of the missile. It is not known if this test represented the first flight of the weapon, or was simply a point in an ongoing test programme. A second launch was reported in May 2008, a third in April 2011, and the fourth in May 2012.

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## DrWatson775

Integration of this ALCM on JF17s would be a big boost. I wonder if they can carry two - one under each wing. 

Painting the missile grey or black would be better.

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## syed_yusuf

DrWatson775 said:


> Integration of this ALCM on JF17s would be a big boost. I wonder if they can carry two - one under each wing.
> 
> Painting the missile grey or black would be better.




Once integrated JF-17 will be able to 2 -3 of them in one go under 2 wing hard points an done under the belly.

it is not integrated yet. 

PAF has close to ~39 mirage 3 rose 1 that can carry Ra'ad to any location 700KM from the base. some of these mirage 3 rose 1 are upgraded with IFR that cna extend the range to ~1100+ KM

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## Windjammer

*Sharpshooters in the briefing room.*

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## fatman17

SquadronLeaderDin said:


> “The Indian Air Force’s capabilities are continuing to deteriorate, despite the arrival of a government that seems ready to make big acquisition decisions,” summarizes a recently published _Jane’s Defence Weekly_ briefing on the current state of the Indian Air Force (IAF). Among aviation experts, the IAF has been notorious for its high accident rate in its MIG-21 fleet. For the last few years, it has also been suffering from a shortfall in the number of trained pilots. In addition, the number of combat squadrons has fallen to 34 despite an authorized goal of 42.
> 
> The report quotes a previous _IHS Jane’s World Air Forces_ from 2006, which states that the IAF is “a competent, technology-intensive service” yet also, “in a state of flux, and force structure decision-making is complicated by politics, sensitivity to past corruption in procurement projects, conflicting budget priorities, continuing problems with indigenous systems [and] bureaucratic delays in tendering processes.” In 2015, the situation does not seem to have changed too much. According to an internal IAF assessment obtained by _IHS Jane’s,_ the operational availability of the force for the previous three years was on average as low as 60 percent.
> 
> The _IHS Jane’s_ report notes that the future capabilities of the IAF are subject to the Modi government’s approach to procurement. “The early signs are that Modi’s MoD will adopt a hybrid policy, encouraging local development but with foreign help.” The success of this partnership approach remains to be been as progress has been slow and mixed, despite the new government’s decision to raise the cap on foreign direct investments, as well the pledge of Indian Finance Minister Arun Jaitley towards a more “pragmatic approach” when dealing with foreign firms and joint-ventures.
> 
> Yet, for example, India and France are still at loggerheads over a $20 billion deal for the local in-license production of 126 Rafale fighter jets in Bengaluru. France’s Dassault Aviation argues that it cannot take responsibility for the production of the aircraft since it has no control and oversight over the production facilities. However, the French defense contractor has pledged to help Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd stick to the delivery schedules. The Indian government will in all likelihood have to make a decision before Indian Prime Minister’s Modi’s scheduled visit to Germany and France in April of this year.
> 
> The media also reported reported that India will start developing its own fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA), the advanced medium combat aircraft (AMCA), this year, and is also eager to purchase Israeli air-to-air missiles. New Delhi also wants to develop its first domestically produced military transport cargo plane. This, however, as _Defense News_ recently reported, has run into various obstacles. It appears that what the former Army Chief V.K. Singh said two years ago still holds true: “The procurement game is a version of snakes and ladders where there is no ladder but only snakes, and if the snakes bite you somewhere, the whole thing comes back to zero.”



Why post this here?

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## fatman17

On Monday, February 2, Pakistan successfully tested a cruise missile with stealth capabilities capable of carrying conventional and nuclear payloads. The Hatf-VIII (Ra’ad) is an air-launched cruise missile with an operational range of 350 km and has been first tested by the Pakistani Air Force in August 2007. Other tests were conducted in 2008 with a Dassault Mirage III Rose fighter jet used as a launch platform and in 2011 and 2012 respectively. It is not known whether the weapon can also be launched from Pakistani F-16s. In the future, the JF-17 may also be a likely platform. This week’s test constitutes the fifth time that the Pakistani Air Force tested the missile.

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## nomi007



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## Windjammer

*Sonic boom creates panic in Chakwal*


CHAKWAL: A blast caused by an aircraft breaking the sound barrier created panic on Tuesday.

The blast was heard at 10:50am. It was so powerful that doors and windows of houses and offices were shattered. The blast left citizens and law enforcement agencies confused and baffled.

Parents rushed to Government Degree College for Women where the atmosphere was already tense due to a news aired on a TV channel a few days ago that some armed men had tried to enter the college building.

“As many as 250 to 300 people gathered at the gate of the college due to the hoax caused by the blast,” Professor Maqsooda Sultana, the vice-principal of the college, told Dawn.

The parents and relatives started calling the college, theirs daughters and relatives to know about the situation while security forces also tried to find out the nature of the blast. Later, it was revealed that the blast was created by an aircraft when it broke the sound barrier. However, the district administration could not issue any statement to satisfy the residents.

A sonic boom is the sound associated with the shockwaves created by an object travelling through the air faster than the speed of sound.

DPO Dr Moeen Masood told Dawn: “A loud sound was heard which caused panic among the residents. We are trying to ascertain the exact nature of the blast. However, it looks like a sound barrier cross.”

A source at a nearby airbase confirmed to Dawn that the blast was caused by an aircraft when it broke the sound barrier.

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## Donatello

Windjammer said:


> *Sonic boom creates panic in Chakwal*
> 
> 
> CHAKWAL: A blast caused by an aircraft breaking the sound barrier created panic on Tuesday.
> 
> The blast was heard at 10:50am. It was so powerful that doors and windows of houses and offices were shattered. The blast left citizens and law enforcement agencies confused and baffled.
> 
> Parents rushed to Government Degree College for Women where the atmosphere was already tense due to a news aired on a TV channel a few days ago that some armed men had tried to enter the college building.
> 
> “As many as 250 to 300 people gathered at the gate of the college due to the hoax caused by the blast,” Professor Maqsooda Sultana, the vice-principal of the college, told Dawn.
> 
> The parents and relatives started calling the college, theirs daughters and relatives to know about the situation while security forces also tried to find out the nature of the blast. Later, it was revealed that the blast was created by an aircraft when it broke the sound barrier. However, the district administration could not issue any statement to satisfy the residents.
> 
> A sonic boom is the sound associated with the shockwaves created by an object travelling through the air faster than the speed of sound.
> 
> DPO Dr Moeen Masood told Dawn: “A loud sound was heard which caused panic among the residents. We are trying to ascertain the exact nature of the blast. However, it looks like a sound barrier cross.”
> 
> A source at a nearby airbase confirmed to Dawn that the blast was caused by an aircraft when it broke the sound barrier.



What's the whole story behind this? Airforce should clarify to public why and when it was done.

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## Windjammer

Donatello said:


> What's the whole story behind this? Airforce should clarify to public why and when it was done.


Sometimes it can happen inadvertently, say when being scrambled to carry out an interception in exercise or otherwise.

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## Sulman Badshah

Windjammer said:


> *Sonic boom creates panic in Chakwal*
> 
> 
> CHAKWAL: A blast caused by an aircraft breaking the sound barrier created panic on Tuesday.
> 
> The blast was heard at 10:50am. It was so powerful that doors and windows of houses and offices were shattered. The blast left citizens and law enforcement agencies confused and baffled.
> 
> Parents rushed to Government Degree College for Women where the atmosphere was already tense due to a news aired on a TV channel a few days ago that some armed men had tried to enter the college building.
> 
> “As many as 250 to 300 people gathered at the gate of the college due to the hoax caused by the blast,” Professor Maqsooda Sultana, the vice-principal of the college, told Dawn.
> 
> The parents and relatives started calling the college, theirs daughters and relatives to know about the situation while security forces also tried to find out the nature of the blast. Later, it was revealed that the blast was created by an aircraft when it broke the sound barrier. However, the district administration could not issue any statement to satisfy the residents.
> 
> A sonic boom is the sound associated with the shockwaves created by an object travelling through the air faster than the speed of sound.
> 
> DPO Dr Moeen Masood told Dawn: “A loud sound was heard which caused panic among the residents. We are trying to ascertain the exact nature of the blast. However, it looks like a sound barrier cross.”
> 
> A source at a nearby airbase confirmed to Dawn that the blast was caused by an aircraft when it broke the sound barrier.



Might be fighters from Murid K airbase

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## Gryphon

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/565436134583730177

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/565436558674001921

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## Windjammer

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/565436134583730177
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/565436558674001921


No wonder the Air Directorate and his assistant are in Karachi for the last few days, i understand they are also shooting a documentary on the PAF. It's worth noting that the Air Directorate is also a pilot himself.


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## fatman17

Time to move masroor AB away from karachi.


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## Donatello

fatman17 said:


> Time to move masroor AB away from karachi.



Can't, because it is the largest in Pakistan, and moving that much infrastructure away will be very costly. They just built the support structure for the ZDK-3. One option is that PAF sells off the land to a developer, like Malik Riaz and use the funds to fund a new base outside of Karachi......will require at least a billion dollars to move everything......


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## truthseeker2010

fatman17 said:


> Time to move masroor AB away from karachi.



yup talhar could be good alternate.



Windjammer said:


> *Sonic boom creates panic in Chakwal*
> 
> 
> CHAKWAL: A blast caused by an aircraft breaking the sound barrier created panic on Tuesday.
> 
> The blast was heard at 10:50am. It was so powerful that doors and windows of houses and offices were shattered. The blast left citizens and law enforcement agencies confused and baffled.
> 
> Parents rushed to Government Degree College for Women where the atmosphere was already tense due to a news aired on a TV channel a few days ago that some armed men had tried to enter the college building.
> 
> “As many as 250 to 300 people gathered at the gate of the college due to the hoax caused by the blast,” Professor Maqsooda Sultana, the vice-principal of the college, told Dawn.
> 
> The parents and relatives started calling the college, theirs daughters and relatives to know about the situation while security forces also tried to find out the nature of the blast. Later, it was revealed that the blast was created by an aircraft when it broke the sound barrier. However, the district administration could not issue any statement to satisfy the residents.
> 
> A sonic boom is the sound associated with the shockwaves created by an object travelling through the air faster than the speed of sound.
> 
> DPO Dr Moeen Masood told Dawn: “A loud sound was heard which caused panic among the residents. We are trying to ascertain the exact nature of the blast. However, it looks like a sound barrier cross.”
> 
> A source at a nearby airbase confirmed to Dawn that the blast was caused by an aircraft when it broke the sound barrier.




vipers from sargodha?


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## fatman17

Donatello said:


> Can't, because it is the largest in Pakistan, and moving that much infrastructure away will be very costly. They just built the support structure for the ZDK-3. One option is that PAF sells off the land to a developer, like Malik Riaz and use the funds to fund a new base outside of Karachi......will require at least a billion dollars to move everything......



Not many options left 
either move the population away from the base perimeter or move to Nawabshah. Upgrade the airfield and infrastructure. Can't afford bird hits on our aircraft and it won't be a billion $ , probably much less.


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## Windjammer

truthseeker2010 said:


> yup talhar could be good alternate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vipers from sargodha?



Could be anything as PAF regularly operates over this area.


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## truthseeker2010

Windjammer said:


> Could be anything as PAF regularly operates over this area.



could the sound barrier be accidental? since PAF does know the effects of it, so if it was an exercise they would have done on a barren desert land.

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## Windjammer

truthseeker2010 said:


> could the sound barrier be accidental? since PAF does know the effects of it, so if it was an exercise they would have done on a barren desert land.


Such incidents do occur all around the globe, as i said it could have been an interception exercise and in case of war, enemy aircraft wouldn't be heading for say barren landscapes.
@Oscar.

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## Donatello

fatman17 said:


> Not many options left
> either move the population away from the base perimeter or move to Nawabshah. Upgrade the airfield and infrastructure. Can't afford bird hits on our aircraft and it won't be a billion $ , probably much less.



Birds are an issue so is the security in populated areas. However since Masroor is a pre-partition era base, it was well outside the population centers then. But if you move Masroor, you will have to move other bases as well, for example Peshawar, Quetta, Multan (which is currently shared), Chaklala etc

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## malikmohsin

which aircraft break sound barrier

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## Sulman Badshah

truthseeker2010 said:


> vipers from sargodha?


Chakwal airbase (Murid K) sometimes have fighter jets ... don't know which one

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## truthseeker2010

Windjammer said:


> Such incidents do occur all around the globe, as i said it could have been an interception exercise and in case of war, enemy aircraft wouldn't be heading for say barren landscapes.
> .



doing it in war is completely justified but in peace, not acceptable since people already are in panic whenever they heard big blasts, but sound barrier also lead to other damages such breaking of windows, glasses..... who will account for that?

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## Bratva

Sulman Badshah said:


> Chakwal airbase (Murid K) sometimes have fighter jets ... don't know which one



PAF base at muridke hosts dedicated UAV squadrons now a days

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## Sulman Badshah

Bratva said:


> PAF base at muridke hosts dedicated UAV squadrons now a days


yes that base host UAV nowadays ... I use sometimes because only few times we can see flights from fighter jets

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## Windjammer

truthseeker2010 said:


> doing it in war is completely justified but in peace, not acceptable since people already are in panic whenever they heard big blasts, but sound barrier also lead to other damages such breaking of windows, glasses..... who will account for that?


What i found out is that an air exercise was taking place in the countryside, one of the aircraft exited the area at high speed and flew over the town causing the sonic boom.

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## truthseeker2010

Windjammer said:


> What i found out is that an air exercise was taking place in the countryside, one of the aircraft exited the area at high speed and flew over the town causing the sonic boom.



do you think that an inquiry or something like that will take place, so that incidents like this don't happen in future?

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## N/A

Windjammer said:


> *Sonic boom creates panic in Chakwal*
> 
> 
> CHAKWAL: A blast caused by an aircraft breaking the sound barrier created panic on Tuesday.
> 
> The blast was heard at 10:50am. It was so powerful that doors and windows of houses and offices were shattered. The blast left citizens and law enforcement agencies confused and baffled.
> 
> Parents rushed to Government Degree College for Women where the atmosphere was already tense due to a news aired on a TV channel a few days ago that some armed men had tried to enter the college building.
> 
> “As many as 250 to 300 people gathered at the gate of the college due to the hoax caused by the blast,” Professor Maqsooda Sultana, the vice-principal of the college, told Dawn.
> 
> The parents and relatives started calling the college, theirs daughters and relatives to know about the situation while security forces also tried to find out the nature of the blast. Later, it was revealed that the blast was created by an aircraft when it broke the sound barrier. However, the district administration could not issue any statement to satisfy the residents.
> 
> A sonic boom is the sound associated with the shockwaves created by an object travelling through the air faster than the speed of sound.
> 
> DPO Dr Moeen Masood told Dawn: “A loud sound was heard which caused panic among the residents. We are trying to ascertain the exact nature of the blast. However, it looks like a sound barrier cross.”
> 
> A source at a nearby airbase confirmed to Dawn that the blast was caused by an aircraft when it broke the sound barrier.


What was the aircraft that caused the sonic boom

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## Babar Shah

PAF is operationally ready to take on whatever challenge comes our way and the ongoing operation Zarb-e-Azb is the live example of our operational readiness” said the Air Chief while addressing the PAF Annual Safety Review for the year-2014 at Air Headquarters, Islamabad.

The review was presided over by Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force and was attended by Principal Staff Officers, Regional Commanders and the supervisors from the field.

Addressing audience the Air Chief further said, “We have moved forward by leaps and bounds in terms of flight safety and our operational preparedness is a manifestation of comprehensive safety culture which translates into preservation of valuable assets.

We in PAF take pride in quality training which has been the hallmark of Pakistan Air Force ever since its inception”. The Air Chief also lauded the efforts put in by the commanders and supervisors in the field.

Operational activities of PAF are examined in the Annual Safety Review. The forum is also used to carry out an in depth study of the standards of flight and ground safety in PAF.

PAF Base Shahbaz was awarded the coveted Rahim Khan Inter Base Flight Safety Trophy for overall best performance during the last year.

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## Gryphon

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/565519356918894592

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/565882470835310592

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/565884484365451264

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## Donatello

Babar Shah said:


> PAF is operationally ready to take on whatever challenge comes our way and the ongoing operation Zarb-e-Azb is the live example of our operational readiness” said the Air Chief while addressing the PAF Annual Safety Review for the year-2014 at Air Headquarters, Islamabad.
> 
> The review was presided over by Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force and was attended by Principal Staff Officers, Regional Commanders and the supervisors from the field.
> 
> Addressing audience the Air Chief further said, “We have moved forward by leaps and bounds in terms of flight safety and our operational preparedness is a manifestation of comprehensive safety culture which translates into preservation of valuable assets.
> 
> We in PAF take pride in quality training which has been the hallmark of Pakistan Air Force ever since its inception”. The Air Chief also lauded the efforts put in by the commanders and supervisors in the field.
> 
> Operational activities of PAF are examined in the Annual Safety Review. The forum is also used to carry out an in depth study of the standards of flight and ground safety in PAF.
> 
> PAF Base Shahbaz was awarded the coveted Rahim Khan Inter Base Flight Safety Trophy for overall best performance during the last year.
> 
> View attachment 192396



Hmm interesting......especially PAF Shahbaz winning the trophy....considering they are operating the new and overhauled f-16s.
In any case, flight safety wasn't really one of PAF's problems.........procuring equipment on time was, and is.


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## Windjammer

*Alan Warnes*‏@warnesyworld
Quite incredibly I bumped into an Iraqi AF pilot at Risalpur who I had met twice at RAF Cranwell in 2011. He had spent a year with 45 Sqn.6:50 am - 12 Feb 2015





*Alan Warnes*‏@warnesyworld
Always touched by genuine warmth of Pak people. Wherever I go, they are always great fun and hospitable. A far cry from country's image.

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## Donatello

Windjammer said:


> *Alan Warnes*‏@warnesyworld
> Quite incredibly I bumped into an Iraqi AF pilot at Risalpur who I had met twice at RAF Cranwell in 2011. He had spent a year with 45 Sqn.6:50 am - 12 Feb 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Alan Warnes*‏@warnesyworld
> Always touched by genuine warmth of Pak people. Wherever I go, they are always great fun and hospitable. A far cry from country's image.



Are the Iraqi's here for F-16 training?

Would be interesting if Alan Warnes did a whole write up on the foreign cadets/pilots in Pakistan.

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## Windjammer

Donatello said:


> Are the Iraqi's here for F-16 training?
> 
> Would be interesting if Alan Warnes did a whole write up on the foreign cadets/pilots in Pakistan.


Na, more like Instructor pilot training since this particular Iraqi pilot spent a year with RAF's 45 Sqn, which is equipped with turboprop transport type aircraft.

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## razgriz19

Allan warnes In PAF Phenom 100

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## fatman17

Donatello said:


> Birds are an issue so is the security in populated areas. However since Masroor is a pre-partition era base, it was well outside the population centers then. But if you move Masroor, you will have to move other bases as well, for example Peshawar, Quetta, Multan (which is currently shared), Chaklala etc



Eventually.

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## baukiki88

*EXCLUSIVE: China sells fighter jets to Argentina which are able to attack Falkland Islands*
*ARGENTINA is to purchase sophisticated Chinese fighter jets able to attack the Falkland Islands as part of a “strategic partnership” with Beijing. *
Published: 00:01, Sun, February 15, 2015
By Marco Giannangeli





IG

Argentinian President, Kristina de Kirchner went to China last week to seal the deal
The move, which further raised tensions in the South Atlantic last night, follows a three-day visit by President Kristina de Kirchner to Beijing last week, in which Argentina secured 15 economic agreements and significant financial investment to bolster its failing economy.

It comes after a decision by Buenos Aires to abandon talks with Vladimir Putin to secure 12 Sukhoi Su-24 'Fencer" bombers, capable of reaching Port Stanley.

Last night sources told the Sunday Express that the deal with Russia, revealed by the Sunday Express in September, had stalled after a series of delays and concerns over post-sale maintenance. 

However, that failure will see Argentina now take delivery of 20 of the most advanced fighter jets in the world. 

Mrs Kirchner has constantly caused concern for the Foreign Office with her campaign to generate international political support for the islands to be returned to Argentina. 

Last month the Ministry of Defence revealed that the Rapier air defence system currently based on Mount Pleasant to counter any potential air threat is to be upgraded, with sources adding that the “operational drumbeat” of routine deployments are also being increased. 

China has pledged more than £162billion in investments for Latin America over the next five years, and has indicated that it will write off millions loaned several years ago, allowing nations like Argentina to rebuild their economies.

Crucially, the financial package includes military equipment to re-generate Argentina’s crippled air force which, over the past 18 months, has attempted to buy aircraft from Israel, Spain and, most recently, Moscow.

Argentina had been negotiating for Russian aircraft, but in fact the Fencers they were looking at are very outdated if you are looking to hold the Falklands, and they have a very poor record for aftersales service for customers

Justin Bronk, of the defence think-tank RUSI

In a "working group" formed by the two countries, Beijing agreed to supply around 20 FC-1/JF-17 "Thunder" fighter jets produced by the Chengdu Aircraft Corporation.

The single-seat, single-engine, fighter has a top speed of Mach 1.8 at altitude of 55,000 ft and combat range of 840 miles, allowing it to comfortably fly to Port Stanley and back from the Tierra del Fuego air base in southern Argentina.

It will also carry a range of weapons including air-to-air missiles and laser guided bombs. 

The collaboration will see China’s influence in the region soar as Beijing funds the projects such as the Cepernic Kirchner dams, the Belgrano Cargas railway and the Atucha nuclear plant will also generate more than 20,000 jobs. 

A senior RAF source said: “The procurement of Chinese aircraft is worrying; they are modern, fast and very capable.

However, we have a robust capability in the Falklands and I imagine that de Kirchner is trying to reinforce her military to strengthen her foreign policy at the negotiating table."

Last night Justin Bronk, of the defence think-tank RUSI, said: “Argentina had been negotiating for Russian aircraft, but in fact the Fencers they were looking at are very outdated if you are looking to hold the Falklands, and they have a very poor record for aftersales service for customers.

“China’s JF-17 is based on the old Soviet Union’s Mig 21, the backbone to the Soviet air force, so it has excellent pedigree.

But it is cheaper than what Russia has to offer, brand new, and has a good reputation for being reliable and having an extremely wide armament fit. 

“It is the non-Western equivalent to the Swedish Gripen, which Argentina originally tried to acquire through Brazil before the deal was stopped by Britain because it contained 30 per cent British parts.

“It would certainly allow Argentina’s air force to fly over Port Stanley, though it’s no match for RAF Typhoons and its pilots don’t have the asymmetrical training that RAF has.

In addition, we have the Type-45 destroyer which is the most formidable air defence destroyer in the world.

“This deal would give China the first proper export market for this new fighter jet, which has been developed with Pakistan, and it seems China is willing to offer Argentina very good finance terms.”

He added: “ There is definitely an aspect of trying to restore Argentinean martial pride, bearing in mind what an enormous issue the ‘Malvinas’ issue remains there.

For her to be able to say ‘we can hold the islands’ is vital for her.

“And while she is likely to be replaced by moderates when she steps down in October, it would be a mistake to think that this issue will go away.”

*Related articles*

UK sends warship to Falklands as Argentina lease supersonic bombers from Russia
Falklands on HIGH ALERT: Hundreds of British troops sent to Islands to boost security
Argentina to ship in naval warship from China – named after Falklands as UK tensions rise

*Don't miss the latest top UK news*




Get the latest UK breaking news from Express.co.uk

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## nomi007

Did you know Pakistan and Turkey have an agreement to exchange their fighter pilots between the both countries.Both countries have conducted the joint military airwarfare exercises (Anatolian Eagle in turkey) and (Indus Viper in Pakistan).
During Israel and Turkey tensions the Pakistani fighter pilots were flying the Turkish F-16s to face the Israel airforce.

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## Rocky rock

nomi007 said:


> Did you know Pakistan and Turkey have an agreement to exchange their fighter pilots between the both countries.Both countries have conducted the joint military airwarfare exercises (Anatolian Eagle in turkey) and (Indus Viper in Pakistan).
> During Israel and Turkey tensions the Pakistani fighter pilots were flying the Turkish F-16s to face the Israel airforce.



Knows about the Arab Israel war but when did turkey confronted israel and Pakistan has sent their pilots there... any reliable source:..?

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## IrbiS

nomi007 said:


> Did you know Pakistan and Turkey have an agreement to exchange their fighter pilots between the both countries.Both countries have conducted the joint military airwarfare exercises (Anatolian Eagle in turkey) and (Indus Viper in Pakistan).
> During Israel and Turkey tensions the Pakistani fighter pilots were flying the Turkish F-16s to face the Israel airforce.





Rocky rock said:


> Knows about the Arab Israel war but when did turkey confronted israel and Pakistan has sent their pilots there... any reliable source:..?


2 pilots of each AF are flying with other at anytime. Their rotation period is 2 years. One on F-16 and one as IP training cadets. Flying against zionists, Zaid Hamid once mentioned that, still need concrete evidence?

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## Gryphon

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/567688424404967424

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/567688798717239296

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## fatman17

INDUSTRY

Russia-Pakistan Deal May Lead to more defence sales.
Usman ansari 



ISLAMABAD — A deal for Pakistan to directly import Russian engines for the JF-17 Thunder multi-role fighter will improve the program and may lead to more Russian-made parts for the aircraft, analysts .

News broke over the weekend that Pakistan would directly import the Klimov RD-93 engines from Russia rather than via China, which reportedly also supports the deal.

Kaiser Tufail, an analyst and former air commodore, said he believes the deal is significant on cost and political grounds.

"I think a direct deal with Russia for supply of the engines basically removes the Chinese middleman, resulting in cheaper procurement cost. It is also reflective of a thaw in what has been a frosty relationship with Russia over the past several decades," he said.

Considering the JF-17 is a Sino-Pakistani project, Tufail said: "China's approval of direct procurement from Russia is also significant, and can be seen as trilateral cooperation between the three countries, in which Pakistan enjoys a pivotal position."

Engine availability has always been a source of speculation for the JF-17 program — initially the lack of a Western-made powerplant — and whether Moscow would continue to supply the RD-93, leading Pakistan to look for an alternative.

An alternative does exist in the Chinese Guizhou WS-13, but analysts do not consider it yet to have matured. With the guaranteed availability of the RD-93, the only issue is whether a more powerful, and perhaps thrust-vectoring, variant may be adopted at a future date.

The European EJ200 is also being offered, but for potential customers such as Saudi Arabia.

Brian Cloughley, analyst and former Australia defense attache to Islamabad, said, "I think there is already examination of the means of upgrading the JF-17 in many ways, and it would be surprising if this did not include more powerful engines, and certainly an improved version of the RD-93 would be a sensible choice."

Cloughley said financing may be an issue, but it's something he said he believed politics will overcome. "As usual, it all comes down to cost — but Russia is cutting the price of its exported defense material in order to acquire and lock-in markets."

Cloughley also highlighted a perennial fear of sanctions for Pakistan that still shapes its policies. "This is yet another blowback effect of sanctions, and it may cost the west considerably in the long term."

However, Tufail questioned the need for the JF-17 needing a replacement engine.

"I believe it is a premature idea, as the current RD-93 is powerful enough, providing a thrust-to-weight ratio of almost 1:1," said Tufail.

"So far the engine has performed flawlessly, both from an operational and maintenance point of view, its relatively low [time between overhaul] notwithstanding. When the PAF eventually decides to replace the current engine, it would likely be on the TBO factor," he added.

Tufail explained that under present circumstances, the JF-17 may not be suited to a more powerful engine.

"It also needs to be understood that any thrust increase in an aircraft that is not amply endowed with a large internal fuel quantity is not a feasible option. The RD-93 is, therefore, likely to continue on the current version of the JF-17 for the foreseeable future," Tufail said.

Cloughley said the engine deal could lead to further Russian involvement in the JF-17. "I have no doubt that Moscow and Islamabad are looking at all sorts of equipment, and it would make sense for Pakistan to make deals — providing they are acceptable to China."

The engine deal could eventually lead to weapons deals, Tufail said.

"Over a long term, Russian weapons would surely come under consideration, but I believe for the time being, we won't get into retrofits," he said.

Tufail added: "These are effort intensive for they need time to iron out the interface glitches. For the next 5-7 years, the PAF would like the weapon system to mature, though I am sure studies of Russian weapons integration would surely get underway during this period."

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## Windjammer

Follow


*Alan Warnes*‏@warnesyworld
Couldn't believe the newspapers here ran with pix of the K-8s over Islamabad yesterday. I suppose it doesn't happen very often.

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## nomi007

*Complete Names of Polish Officers and men who served PAF are as follows: *
*After independence of Pakistan in 1947, thirty Polish officers and technicians who served RAF in WWII joined PAF. Poland soon become a communist country. RPAF consisted of Tempest, Fury, Harvad, Auster, Tiger Moth , Bristol Freighter and Dakota aircraft which were all originated from RAF, Polish officers and men were trained in flying and maintenance of these aircraft.





A fine Polish officer Wladyslaw Turowicz rose to the rank of Air Cdre, he was appointed as ACAS (Maintenance). He became Pakistani citizen, and died in 1984.


PAF Museum, Faisal has a special section devoted to pay tribute to him. Following are pictures from the same section.
*








Wilhelm Adler, Władysław Augustynowicz, Władysław Banach,
Franciszek Berezowski, Wiktor Cepiński-Flegier, Mieczysław Ciesielski,
Wiktor Dobrzański, Stanisław Dudek, Henryk Franczak, Eugeniusz Gajewski,
Alfons Gluba, Mieczysław Gorzula, Stanisław Haczkiewicz,
Przemysław Hedinger, Roman Hrycak, Kajetan Ignatowski,
Zygmunt Jabłoński, Antoni Jędryszek, Bolesław Kaczmarek,
Witold Karol, Józef Kazimierczak, Ernest Keller,
Piotr Kłos, Antoni Kondrat, Józef Korczowski,
Zbigniew Kossakowski, Kazimierz Kozak,
Roman Kozik, Konstanty Krupowicz,
Henryk Kudliński, Michał Kulesza,
Stanisław Kurowski, Michał Kułagin, Henryk Kwiatkowski,
Kazimierz Leis, Stefan Maczulski, Mieczysław Maksymowicz,
Mieczysław Malinowski, Antoni Michalak,
Marian Michalak, Donat Mickiewicz, Maria Mikulska, Jan Mikulski,
Stanisław Miller, Konrad Muchowski, Mieczysław Muszyński, Wacław Niezręcki,
Bronisław Pianko, Antoni Polek, Tadeusz Południak, Henryk Raczkowski,




Edmund Sienkiewicz, Ignacy Sienkiewicz, Karol Sienkiewicz, Zdzisław Siwczyński,
Bohdan Sokół-Szahin, Stanisław Susz, Adam Szajdzicki,
Ludwik Świerzb, Czesław Tarkowski, Czesław Tarnowski,
Stefan Tronczyński, Władysław Turowicz,
Zofia Turowicz, Tadeusz Wodziński, Mieczysław Wolański,
Eugeniusz Zator, Czesław Zapaśnik,
Jerzy Zbierzchowski, Stefan Zygnerski, Julian Żuromski and Henryk Perkowicz





paf to need make a documentary on it

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## IrbiS

Middle row, second from the right W.Turowicz, third from right, his wife Z. Turowicz




nomi007 said:


> paf to need make a documentary on it



A documentary film on the life and scientific work of Air Com. Wladyslaw Turowicz has been completed, directed by Anna T. Pietraszek, a Polish journalist and film maker with an honorary Pakistani citizenship. The movie shows how the Air. Cdre. Turowicz and other English officers and technicians have contributed in building the PAF and SUPARCO soon after independence. The documentary film was released on October 25, 2008.

"This documentary will preserve and pass on that future generations of the pages of our common history and tell them about our air force officers' Cooperation and the generosity and hospitality of the Pakistani people," said Ireneusz Makles, the Consul General of Poland in Karachi.The consul general said he believes's That That the documentary would act this Encourage the contemporary activities of the two countries and Their future generations. "This is an example of how the two countries can work together to serve our nations," remarked Makles and wished to enhance the Polish-Pakistani Cooperation.

"Polish young eagles on Pakistani heaven"





Anna Teresa Pietraszek director of "Polish young eagles on Pakistani heaven" in the company of Pakistanis

This story was saved from oblivion Anna Teresa Pietraszek, Polish film director and screenwriter. It is the work of a full-length documentary film .: "Polish young eagles on Pakistani heaven" (2008), for which she received an honorary citizen of Pakistan.

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## nomi007

can u post that movie

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## IrbiS

nomi007 said:


> can u post that movie


Here you go but it's in Polish.

*Polskie orlęta na pakistańskim niebie (Polish young eagles on Pakistani heaven)*

It's on YouTube

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## Gryphon

*AirForces Monthly* - March 2015 (Issue #324)
Excerpt from page 30

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## IrbiS

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/568473218484342784
( The guy who shot down zionist Mirage-III over Jolan Heights and is also said to have flown the 1st Afghan Mig-21 defecting to Pakistan )

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## Windjammer

Pakistan Air Force Lockheed C-130E Hercules 382-4171 in Toulouse, France, on February 19, 2015.
Wonder what was it picking up. !!

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## salman-1

Most probably Mirage 3/5 parts, as many times our Air chief's have informed that there are still some suppliers in France from which we are getting parts. Pakistan is not the only country operating these old machines still all poor African, south Asian and many more countries around the world still operating Mirages

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## fatman17

Windjammer said:


> Pakistan Air Force Lockheed C-130E Hercules 382-4171 in Toulouse, France, on February 19, 2015.
> Wonder what was it picking up. !!



Just a stopover. Not getting anything from the frogs these days.

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## fatman17

salman-1 said:


> Most probably Mirage 3/5 parts, as many times our Air chief's have informed that there are still some suppliers in France from which we are getting parts. Pakistan is not the only country operating these old machines still all poor African, south Asian and many more countries around the world still operating Mirages



No PAF is cannibalising it's older mirages for spares. It's not an issue.

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## Zibago

IrbiS said:


> Here you go but it's in Polish.
> 
> *Polskie orlęta na pakistańskim niebie (Polish young eagles on Pakistani heaven)*
> 
> It's on YouTube


Is there an English translated or subtitle version?

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## IrbiS

fakhre mirpur said:


> Is there an English translated or subtitle version?


Maybe, but I don't know

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## Zibago

IrbiS said:


> Maybe, but I don't know


I knew about this documentry but i really wanted a tranlated version cuz i really want to know the detailed story of Air Cdr Wlady

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## IrbiS

fakhre mirpur said:


> I knew about this documentry but i really wanted a tranlated version cuz i really want to know the detailed story of Air Cdr Wlady


Maybe our sleepy media could do somethin' but they aren't

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## Zibago

IrbiS said:


> Maybe our sleepy media could do somethin' but they aren't


Look at India they sell their muslim rocket man manjan everywhere ,majority of Pakistanis don,t know that their rocket missile man was a Christian Polish migrant and his wife Zofia Turowics was the first female pilot of Pakistan

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## Airdefence@4tharmforce

Does anyone has any idea that who is new AIR Chief


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## PTI.KPK

Dil Dil Pakistan. Pak Fazaya The Great!


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## Zibago

RAF Instructor pilots (& families) during their service in Pakistan - circa 1949.





President Ayub Khan with Wladyslav Turowics





Air Cdre Turowics receiving PM Nazimuddin





Air cdre Turowics second from right and Mrs Turowics third from left





Zofia Turowics the first female pilot of Pakistan

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## fatman17

fakhre mirpur said:


> Is there an English translated or subtitle version?



No Eng version


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## Zibago

fatman17 said:


> No Eng version


I watched this clip in 2014 searched everywhere for an English subtitled version.

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## monitor

fakhre mirpur said:


> RAF Instructor pilots (& families) during their service in Pakistan - circa 1949.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> President Ayub Khan with Wladyslav Turowics
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Air Cdre Turowics receiving PM Nazimuddin
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Air cdre Turowics second from right and Mrs Turowics third from left
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Zofia Turowics the first female pilot of Pakistan



Who is this young chaps beside the lady pilot ?

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## Zibago

monitor said:


> Who is this young chaps beside the lady pilot ?


A trainee pilot i guess

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## fatman17

BRIEFING Anti-radiation missiles

ARMing up

While the days of dedicated ‘Wild Weasel’ suppression-of-enemy-air-defences aircraft are largely over, continuing operational experience with anti-radiation missiles suggests the genre still has a place in the air-to-ground munitions armoury. Martin Streetly reports


Since their first deployment during the 1960s, anti-radiation missiles ARMs) have become an intrinsic part of air-to-ground warfare. Using passive seeker technology to hone in on and disable radars associated with surface-to-air missile (SAM) systems, they have gone a long way towards redressing the threat to strike formations posed by first- and second-generation radarguided SAM batteries.

Although perhaps less effective with the passage of time, ARM technology continues to evolve and is currently being produced by four nations: Brazil, China, Russia, and the United States.

From a historical perspective, the first ARM, the US AGM-45 Shrike, entered combat during the late 1960s when the US Air Force (USAF) teamed it with a specialised ‘Wild Weasel’ aircraft that carried a dedicated operator and was both capable of detecting hostile emitters and launching a ‘hard kill’ response against them.

Subsequently, the USAF fielded secondand third-generation ‘Wild Weasels’ before arriving at its current position, with an ARM capability inherent within its F-16CM multirole strike fighter fleet. The service, together with the US Navy (USN) and the US Marine Corps (USMC), has gone on to utilise succeeding generations of ARMs in every conflict it has fought where strike aircraft were confronted with radar-guided SAMs in the prosecution of their duty.

Most of NATO has sheltered under the US ‘Wild Weasel’ umbrella, with only France, Germany, Italy, and the United Kingdom providing distinct national capabilities. France and the UK developed their own ARMs, which have since been withdrawn from service, while Germany and Italy make use of dedicated Tornado ECR ‘Wild Weasel’ aircraft equipped with US AGM-88 High-speed AntiRadiation Missiles (HARMs). The HARM’s ability to function at a number of levels of capability has proliferated its use to a wider ‘shooter’ community, which has included Greece, Morocco, Saudi Arabia, South Korea, Spain, Turkey, and the United Arab Emirates.

Outside the US and NATO, the decision on whether to acquire ARMs seems to hinge on the operational doctrines followed by the specific air force and/or naval air arm. Russian thinking sees such weapons as standard components of the air-to-surface weapons armoury, with the capability applicable to a wide range of aircraft on an as and when required basis. The policy’s aim seems to be much like that of the US military (without the use of dedicated ‘Wild Weasel’ platforms) and is designed to punch holes in an air defence network so that strike formations can attack radar/SAM-defended targets without prohibitive losses.

ARMs of the type being discussed also have a role in naval warfare, where they can be used to blind radar suites aboard surface ships and, in some cases, act as ‘ship killers’ by virtue of either their warhead size or their kinetic effect. 

LD-10

Developed by China’s Luoyang Opto-Electro Technology Development Centre (LOEC), the Lei Dian (LD - Thunderbolt) 10 ARM is related to LOEC’s SD-10/PL-12 beyond-visual-range (BVR) air-to-air missile, with the two weapons sharing a common dog tooth rear fin design.

To fit it for the ARM role, the LD-10 differs from its parent by virtue of redesigned mid-body fins and increases in both its fuselage length and weight. The LD-10 is rail-launched and equipped with a solid-fuel rocket motor, fragmentation warhead, and laser proximity and impact fuzes. Target emitter location/cuing/targeting is by means of the host platform’s radar warning receiver (RWR) and the missile is said to both utilise a strap-down inertial navigation system (capable of defeating emitter shutdown) and a passive radar seeker that covers a wide range of frequencies. The LD-10 has a length and body diameter of 4.06 m and 203 mm respectively, a launch weight of 234 kg, and a range of between 10 and 20 km.

The LD-10 ARM is understood to have undergone captive carry trials in about 2010 and has been test-launched from J-8, J-10, and Q-5 fast jets. As of 2012, LOEC reported that the Lei Dian weapon was in production for an unnamed export customer, since identified as Pakistan, for use with JF-17 Thunder fighters.

MAR-1

Developed jointly by the Força Aérea Brasileira (FAB - Brazilian Air Force) and national contractor Mectron Engenharia Industria e Comércio Ltda (most recently a part of the Odebrecht Defense and Technology group), the MAR-1 takes the form of a blunt-nosed missile equipped with cruciform arrangements of fixed strakes, cropped delta flight surfaces, and actuated tail fins at its nose, mid-section, and tail.

Other system features include: a homing section (incorporating a wideband radar seeker and a high-speed digital signal processor); a two-stage, solid-fuel, boost/sustain rocket motor (low smoke and utilising composite propellants); a strap-down, GPSaided, mid-course inertial navigation system; a 90 kg blast/fragmentation warhead; an Opto Eletrõnica laser proximity fuze; an electro-mechanical control section; pre-programmed, missile-as-sensor, and self-defence operating modes; and an optional standalone fire-control display unit (FCDU) for nondatabus-equipped aircraft.

The MAR-1 pre-programmed mode is used for attacks on emitters of known types and/ or in known locations, while the missile-assensor function uses the missile’s seeker to detect targets of opportunity, identify them, and to display the acquired data to the host platform’s crew.

In self-defence mode the weapon is cued by the host’s RWR or electronic support system, while the MAR-1’s FCDU displays the missile’s operating mode; seeker frequency range/bandwidth; detected emissions (emitter parameters, classification, and direction-of-arrival); target data (parametrics, classification, range, and bearing); and weapon status.

Functionally, the launch platform’s pilot selects power-on, operating mode and target, confirms lock-on or rejection, and fires the weapon. Again, the MAR-1 is reported to be programmable for climb/altitude and manoeuvring profiles, with brackets of missiles being programmable to approach a selected target from different azimuths, thereby facilitating multiple simultaneous strikes. The weapon’s use of carbon-fibre composites in its construction provides it with a degree of stealth and MAR-1 specification data includes a length and body diameter of 3.88 m and 230 mm respectively, a launch weight of 266 kg, and a range of 25 to 50 km.

Development of the MAR-1 began during 1998, with the weapon’s development cycle nearing completion by the end of 2004. Following its public debut, on 2 December 2008 Brazil’s Camara de Comercio Exterior (Chamber of Foreign Trade) approved a then USD120 million sale of 100 MAR-1 rounds to Pakistan, where the weapon is understood to have been integrated with that country’s Mirage III/V and JF-17 fast jets.

In FAB service the MAR-1 has been identified as a weapon option for the A-1M (AMX) strike aircraft, receiving a software update to facilitate this in late 2012

JDW

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## fatman17

Today a Mirage trainer aircraft crashed near DI Khan. Both pilot and student embraced shahadat. RIP

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## Dr. Strangelove

fakhre mirpur said:


> A trainee pilot i guess


zara dubara dekh he is asking about the little kid

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## Zibago

Dr. Stranglove said:


> zara dubara dekh he is asking about the little kid


Usi ka keh raha hoan wo 18-19 ka lagta hay

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## fatman17

Who will become the new CAS. Decision is supposedly imminent.

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## Jango

fatman17 said:


> Who will become the new CAS. Decision is supposedly imminent.



Air Marsahl Sohail Gul Khan apparently...

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## fatman17

Air Marshal Sohail Gul Khan likely to be appointed new air chief





Muhammad Saleh Zaafir
Thursday, January 29, 2015 





ISLAMABAD: Pakistan Air Force (PAF) will have its new chief next month as the incumbent Chief of the Air Staff (CAS), Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt, will be completing his tenure in the third week of March.



Highly-placed sources told The News that the current Vice Chief of Air Staff (VCAS) Air Marshal Sohail Gul Khan will be elevated to the rank of Air Chief Marshal and was likely to be designated as the new Chief of the Air Staff.



The approval of the new appointment will be accorded by Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif who will consign it to President Mamnoon Hussain for formal appointment. The names for the new CAS are before the prime minister and they include Air Marshal Muhammad Jamshaid Khan, Deputy Chief of the Air Staff Support (DCAS-S), Air Marshal Sohail Aman, Deputy Chief of Air Staff (DCAS-Operation) and Air Marshal Sohail Gul Khan.



The sources said that Sohail Gul Khan belongs to Peshawar and is a thorough soldier. He has piloted the F-16 fighter aircraft. He throughout had been outstanding in his career and held command of various bases.



Air Marshal Sohail Gul Khan is the senior-most commander in the PAF after the present CAS. His appointment will be made for a period of three years and the major task before him, after assuming the command, will be to provide support to the army in its historic military Operation Zarb-e-Azb currently underway in the tribal areas to flush out the terrorists and eliminate their hideouts.

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## fatman17

PAF furies: Iron butterflies

Meet the flying furies of the Pakistan Air Force.

By Maha Mussadaq

Published: March 24, 2013


Meet the flying furies of the Pakistan Air Force . 

“We lock onto each other’s planes in the air and fake a battle, until one of us proclaims ‘I’m dead,’” says the 24-year-old Flying Officer, Ayesha Omar Farooq. 

She is one of the many female pilots who now bolster the ranks of the Pakistan Air Force. When she takes off from the tarmac, the responsibility of flying a multi-million dollar fighter is hers and hers alone. Gone are the days when women in the military were only restricted to the fields of medicine and engineering. With the passage of time, women in the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) have branched into different units and today, they are even inducted as frontline Fighter Pilots. Dressed in crisp uniforms with embellished stars on their shoulders and smiles on their faces, a group of female officers gather at the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) to talk about their experiences. They are the conquerors of the skies, and the pride they take in their positions and achievements is visible in their demeanour. Their faces, radiant with courage and confidence break into smiles and laughter effortlessly. It is easy to forget that, in order to get to this much sought-after position, each and every one of them has had to put in countless hours of hard work and have had to make many sacrifices.

For these pilots, the sky is not the limit. When it comes to flying fighter jets, the higher you soar, the greater are the heights that you discover. It is only when you push both yourself and your aircraft to its limits that you discover what you are capable of. 23-year-old Flying Officer Anam Faiq, was the first in her family to join the military. As a little girl, she would attend the annual parades with her father on the 23rd of March in Islamabad. “I was so fascinated to see those planes soaring high. I always thought to myself that one day I will also fly a plane.” Back then, her image of pilots was that of tall, dashing and muscular men. “But of course that’s not the case anymore,” she says with a laugh. Anam has now spent six years in the air force and is now in charge of her own F-7 fighter plane.

Even after years of being a pilot, she says that there are times when her parents cannot believe that she actually flies a fighter jet. “Every time I am about to take off, I speak to my mother. She says whenever I’m up in the air, her heart sinks. But I do see the pride in her eyes,” she says. Her training has been demanding, but Anam is proud to have made it this far at a young age. “I am proud to say that I am a fighter pilot today. I feel amazing when I am in the air, at the top of the world. There is no feeling that matches the adrenaline rush of when we take off. Hearing my heart beat in my head, the excitement is unmatchable,” she says.

But it is still a fact that, all over the world, the armed forces are largely a boy’s club. So how do these young girls blend in this macho environment? Anam says that they have never felt discriminated against or threatened by their male counterparts. “If anything, they have been extremely supportive” she says. Missions in the Air Force are not allocated on gender basis and everyone gets an equally tough assignment. The simulated war patterns in the basic fighter maneuvers are what excite her the most. “We risk our lives, early mornings or late at night, but it is all worth it!” she says. Adding to that, Ayesha Omar Farooq says that she enjoys her training in bombing the most. “The jolt felt in the aircraft once the bomb lands on the ground is just exciting. My mother is a really strong woman and I look up to her. After losing my father at an early age, I now feel like I am the man of my family and I feel that the Air Force has made me stronger than ever,” she says. Both Anam and Ayesha fly their own fighter planes today and are amongst the few handpicked fighter pilots in the PAF. “The scope for women to enter this profession is high; it is demanding but rewarding” says Ayesha.

Squadron leader Sania Iqbal, a member of the Administration Branch, says that women are now present in almost every unit of the PAF. A Masters graduate in English literature, Sania never wanted to be a typical housewife. Owing to her family background in the military service, she always aspired to be a part of the PAF and jumped at the opportunity as soon as she heard of it. “There was no turning back after that point” she says. With eleven years of experience in the administration of different units at the PAF, she believes that women are the best managers, and she’s certainly glad for the support that having other women around gives her: “We have seen tough times together and we support each other. You don’t feel alone, and you know someone will stand up for you in difficult times. The pride, the comfort, the perks aside, serving in the Pakistan Air force is a serious challenge that we battle everyday”, she says.

While these women endure strenuous work hours and tough training regimes in the air, those on ground-duty don’t have it easy either. Many of these women are also mothers and wives on double duty. Standing tall and confident among the officers is Flight Lieutenant Munazzah Akbar Khan, who works at the Air Headquarters in Islamabad at the Directorate of Safety. As a mother of two, she has more than one responsibility on her shoulders. With eleven years of work experience, she calls her present posting “the most stressful job in the world.” “We have to leave our worries and personal matters outside the tower. I am a mother but at the same time I am an officer, so once I enter the tower I cannot think about anything else. I feel like a super woman at times,” she adds. Along with the Air Force, she is also in-charge of military and civil traffic. “But that’s not all,” she says, “one must also take care of flight safety, in air and on-ground emergencies, and rescue and fire services. We cannot afford a single flaw. Lives are at stake and it is a huge responsibility especially when we deal with VIP and VVIP movements.” Like her colleagues, Munazzah says there is no discrimination when it comes to work and women have to work just as hard as the men. “Quick decisions, high attention level, stressful night duties are all very challenging but a great learning experience,” she says.

Though it may be a struggle to remain at par with the men, it is just as challenging, and sometimes amusing, to keep up with the women outside the Air Base. Squadron leader Shakeela Naaz, a training officer at the Faisal Base Engineering Wing, comments on the difference between themselves and the women of other professions. “We are dressed in uniform the whole day and don’t even know how it feels to wear heels anymore” she laughs. “We have to pick up magazines to learn the latest trends.”

But if training in the Air Force keeps them away from the changing fashion vistas of Pakistan, it certainly inculcates in them iron-clad confidence. Shakeela, who has been working in the Air Force for the last 12 years, says that her job, taxing as it may be, has given her the confidence to embrace any challenge that comes her way. “Everyone is always on rotation,” she says, “from learning to manage the electronics of aircrafts to manning the Air Defence setup. Everything needs to be maintained without any error, and quality checks are very important.” Sharing similar views, Squadron Leader at the AHQ Islamabad, Ayesha Waheed says that the Air Force experience has transformed her as a person. After eleven years of experience in the training of teachers and the staff, she is now working with the Air Force’s Flight Safety Magazine. “If I had lived the normal life of a housewife, my life would feel empty,” she says. She recalls being a shy girl who had no confidence to speak to anyone. “I think my experience has added so much to my knowledge that today I work on various issues for the Magazine. It helps me grow as a person each day. I talk to people with confidence now and confront them whenever I feel the need to,” she says, and adds with a smile: “It is good being in uniform.”

As years go by, more and more women are entering the PAF in front-line positions. Squadron Leader Amber Raza, who is currently working as an Assistant Director of Civil Contract Management, says that all assignments given to her as a lady officer were challenging at first. But in the past few years there has been a sudden boost in the number of women entering the profession. “Twelve years ago there were 46 Lady Officers in our course and they have now crossed over 200 officers working in different units. There is not a single unit that does not have a lady officer,” says Amber.

These frontline female fighter pilots may be in an unconventional profession in Pakistan, but they believe that the social taboos they encounter as women are no different from those in other professional fields. Opting for a profession in the PAF may take a lot of their time and energy, perhaps even at the expense of their families, but it rewards them with pride and honour. There is a lot that goes behind their smiles and their calm exterior. Salute to these brave women who are serving the country so dedicatedly, those who tell us confidently as we doze off: “Sleep tight! The Pakistan Air Force is awake!”

Published in The Express Tribune, Sunday Magazine, March 24th, 2013.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

fakhre mirpur said:


> RAF Instructor pilots (& families) during their service in Pakistan - circa 1949.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> President Ayub Khan with Wladyslav Turowics
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Air Cdre Turowics receiving PM Nazimuddin
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Air cdre Turowics second from right and Mrs Turowics third from left
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Zofia Turowics the first female pilot of Pakistan




He wasnt from RAF... He was Polish ... and stayed with the PAF after independence.... his sons i believe are also working with SUPARCO.





*






*

*Zofia and Władysław Turowicz – Pakistanis By Choice*







I, the author of this memorial, am a 31 years old urban female who lives in a big developed capital city of the 18thwealthiest economy in the world and every single day I am fed with stories of blasts and bombings and picture of hostile Muslim world, especially Pakistan.

However I am an orientalist focused on East Asia and a traveller. So my mind embraces the core of the matter and not just the media image. Yet I humbly admit that I was always reluctant and afraid to go to Karachi or Islamabad having impression that I will be either abducted or killed in an ambush as a foreigner.

My surprise however was big when today on the radio I heard about the death and burial of Zofia Turowicz. Both she and her husband left Poland in 1939 to join the battlefield of the Second World War. The political changes on the map of Europe never allowed them to go back because Stalinist regime hunted down intellectuals and officers of pre-war independent Poland. Mrs Turowicz or Turowiczowa how her last name is gendered in old-style Polish, was one of the first ever Pakistani gliding teachers who created gliding training programme, the basis for later military pilots, as early as in 1950. She stopped military career in 1957 and later worked at the American School and the University of Karachi where she taught applied mathematics and other core subjects.

Her husband Władysław Turowicz died in 1980 after long term career in Pakistani military aviation industry and forces. He came to Pakistan in 1948 and his wife joined soon after for the three-year contract with Pakistan Air Force which aimed to transform Pakistan Air Force into permanent and effective Air Force of the region. Turowicz set up technical institutes in Karachi. He taught and revitalized Pakistan Air Force Academy as its chief scientist. He initially led the technical training in the airbase and a part of the Polish specialists in the technical section in Karachi. However, they were transferred and accommodated in Peshawar.

In 1952, Turowicz, along with several Polish fighters, were promoted to the rank of Wing Commander. He was also promoted to the rank Lieutenant Commander when he became an Air Force Commander of Pakistan Air Force’s Chaklala Airbase. Promoted several times again along with other Polish Air Force general, became an Air Commodore and a Deputy Chief of Air Staff, in charge of Pakistan Air Force Training Department.

Turowicz was involved in building the face of what is called modern Pakistan. His service added to the pride of the new nation and likely added Polish sense of being statesman to the military and scientific personnel he trained over the years.

During the Indo-Pakistani War of 1965, Turowicz along with other Polish pilots rose to prominence and fame as they helped in successfully defending Lahore and Pakistan. Turowicz, Squadron Leader Anotnii Zbigniew Jedryszek, and other Polish pilots were awarded the Sitara-e-Pakistan. Honorary Pakistani citizenship was also bestowed upon Turowicz, as well as, some other Polish pilots by the President of Pakistan, Ayub Khan.

Turowicz was actively and heavily involved in Pakistan’s space program. According to his close sources, Turowicz was passionate and fascinated with the Russian and American space program. In 1966, the Government of Pakistan transferred him to SUPARCO, Pakistan’s national space agency, where he worked as a chief scientist and an aeronautical engineer. Together with noted Pakistani theoretical physicist, Dr. Abdus Salam, who later won the Nobel Prize in Physics in 1979 convinced president Khan to launch space program for peaceful purposes. He was sure that Pakistan will develop rocket technology and launch its first satelite due course of time. He insisted on sufficient funds for research and development of this sector. His prediction came true, when 10 years after the death of Air. Mar. Gen. Władysław Turowicz, Pakistan launched its first indigenously developed experimental digital communication satellite from Xichang Satellite Launch Center, People’s Republic of China aboard a Long March 2E. His vision did come true but unfortunately, he wasn’t there to see it.

He successfully convinced the United States Government to invest and train Pakistan’s scientists in the field of rocket technology. He is widely credited with setting up the rocket fuel factories and rocket technology laboratories and research institutes in Pakistan. He was one of the chief designers of Sonmiani Satellite Launch Centre.

He did not stop with Space Programme though. Turowicz initiated himself Nuclear weapons programme in 1970 and laid foundation of research and production that led to Pakistani independent source of Nuclear military potential.

His entire family lived in Pakistan ever since they have entered the country in 1948. His three daughters live in Pakistan and two of them married Pakistanis.

Zofia and Władysław Turowicz were partners both on the ground and in the air where she often joined him as a navigator during his flights. They both had independent military aviation careers before arrival to Pakistan and had been multiawarded and internationally recognised gliders and para shooters.

They are both buried at the catholic cemetery in Karachi in Pakistan and both had been awarded Pakistani citizenship.

Their story reminded me to watch the world with my own eyes and be even more curious and even more brave and less cuffed in the ready stereotypes I am being fed everyday by media and society.



...........................

*The Rocket-Missile Man of Pakistan: Air Commodore Władysław Józef Marian Turowicz

*
Ever since Pakistan got independence she saw hundreds of faces that served the country to their best, played more than just a vital role in its development and made the country proud by all means. One of such names is Air Commodore Władysław Józef Marian Turowicz. Air Commodore Władysław Józef Marian Turowicz was a prominent and distinguished Polish Pakistani military scientist and aeronautical engineer who is looked up to as one of the chief architects of Pakistan’s Space Program.
Born in 1908 in Serbia, Władysław Józef Marian Turowicz has a unique kind of fascination for aviation technology, rocket science and aircraft designs. At the age when other children collect marbles and play with cars Władysław Józef Marian Turowicz had a hobby of collecting different kinds of aircraft models only. Władysław Józef Marian Turowicz graduated from Serbia’s most prestigious institute of that time- Warsaw University of Technology in 1920 with a master’s degree in aeronautical engineering and later earned his PhD degree from the same institute.



During his time at Warsaw University of Technology he along with his friends, university fellows, teachers and other eminent scholars of the field laid foundation of Aeroklub Polski where he did extensive research in the field and got the golden chance of working in close collaboration with Polish aeronautical engineers of that time.
Władysław Józef Marian Turowicz after earning his PhD degree joined Polish Air Force in the capacity of an aeronautical engineer and fighter pilot. He later migrated to GreatBritain where he was immediately accepted to serve in Royal Air Force as Reservist Polish Pilot. He served Royal Air Force in critical times of World War II and as the situation got worse many members of Royal Air Force were sent to different countries. Pakistan was fortunate that Władysław Józef Marian Turowicz along with 29 more Polish pilots, engineers and scientists migrated to Pakistan.
In Pakistan he was deployed at Karachi airbase where his primary responsibilities include train our fighter pilots and play a role in setting up technical institutes. During the first three years of his tenure, he served Academy of PAF as chief scientist too. After building capacity of members of PAF he was transferred to Peshawar airbase where his job responsibilities were even more critical.
Władysław Józef Marian Turowicz was a fighter, a brave warrior who not only fought courageously during World War II, but defended Lahore during Indo-Pak war of 1965. The nation’s asset also held the key position of PAF’s Air Marshal.
The mission of Władysław Józef Marian Turowicz’s life was to establish grounds for space engineering and he worked day and night for that in Pakistan. Władysław Józef Marian Turowicz worked closely with Dr. Abdus Salam, the only Noble prize winner of the country and was among those few people who convinced President Ayub Khan that how important it is for Pakistan to have space and nuclear program. As a true patriot Władysław Józef Marian Turowicz had all of his faith in Pakistan’spotential to grow as the strongest nation of the region. He believed that that day is not far away when Pakistan will haveits own nuclear and space program which will help the country maintaining peace and sovereignty. His dream came true, but he wasn’t able to see its realization. Pakistan launched its firstdigital communication satellite in 1990 that was exactly 10 years after the demise of the prodigious scientist and engineer. He was also involved in the launch of Rehbar-1, Pakistan’s first rocket. Rather, he is believed to be the chief designer and developer of the program. Towards the end of his career he was serving Space and Upper Atmosphere Research Commission (SUPARCO) of Pakistan as administrator.











Władysław Józef Marian Turowicz met an unfortunate deadly accident on January 8, 1980 leaving a legacy of intellectualism and technological advancement behind. He was buried in Christian Cementary in Karachi with full military honor. His name is engraved on a memorial there along with other Polish scientists that served the country, at Monument of General Władysław Turowicz in PAF Museum Karachi and as General Władysław Turowicz at Space Complex (SUPARCO), Lahore Center. As an individual he has received many honors like Sitara-e-Pakistan, Tamgha-e-Pakistan, Sitara-e-Khidmat, Sitara-e-Quaid-e-Azam, Sitara-e-Imtiaz, Abdus Salam Award in Aeronautical Engineering and ICTP Award in Space Physics.

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## IrbiS

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/575614504437948417

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## Najam Khan

Windjammer said:


> Pakistan Air Force Lockheed C-130E Hercules 382-4171 in Toulouse, France, on February 19, 2015.
> *Wonder what was it picking up. !!*



Just a pit stop while coming bk from US.

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## fatman17

The LY 80 SAM system is a significant deal as it is worth US $ 226 million.

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## truthseeker2010

fatman17 said:


> The LY 80 SAM system is a significant deal as it is worth US $ 226 million.



these are for army air defence?

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## fatman17

truthseeker2010 said:


> these are for army air defence?



I would think for both arms under AAD

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## nomi007

this time 23rd march will be big airshow display
rehearsal for 23rd March 2015 Parade Event over Islamabad

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## fatman17

Drones should help alleviate the use of combat aircraft in the WOT. It’s very costly to keep fighter planes in the air even for an hour.

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## IrbiS

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/578140377313452032
New Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman

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## nomi007

today
Pakistan Day Parade - 23rd March preparations

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## nomi007

Shaheen-III *PAK-CHINA* joint military exercise.

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## IrbiS

*JAIZA - SSW Pakistan Air Force DAWN News*

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## fatman17

Air Commodore M. Zafar Masud –A Pioneer of the Pakistan Air Force

Air Commodore M. Zafar Masud - A Pioneer of the Pakistan Air Force has recently been published (ISBN: 978-0982611067) and released in the United States of America. In this book, author Nasim Yousaf (grandson of Allama Mashriqi) tells the story of Air Commodore Masud - a decorated Pakistani fighter pilot, who sacrificed his promising career in an effort to save Pakistan. Masud resigned from the Air Force based on a principled stand against the use of military force in East Pakistan.

Air Commodore Masud was the son of the late Zakia Sultana (Allama Mashriqi’s niece). During the 1965 war with India, Air Commodore Masud was the Base Commander of the Sargodha Base (now PAF Base Mushaf). He and the pilots under his command at Sargodha Base fought the war with extraordinary courage. As a result of his valiant and heroic performance, Air Commodore Masud received the prestigious honors of Hilal-i-Jurat (1965) and Sitara-i-Basalat (1971). The Daily Times (October 08, 2003, Lahore) wrote that Air Commodore Masud “was one of three recipients of the Hilal-e-Jurat from the Pakistan Air Force for services during the 1965 war...”

Air Commodore Masud passed away in Karachi (Pakistan) on October 07, 2003 and was laid to rest in the Karachi Military Graveyard next to his beloved wife, Elizabeth. His burial included a Guard of Honor from the Pakistan Air Force. As a tribute to the departed soul, Retired Air Chief Marshal Jamal A. Khan wrote a stellar article in the daily Dawn (Oct 13, 2003) newspaper (Karachi) entitled “Mitty Masud folds his wings.”

Book Description (from the Back Cover):

"The late Air Commodore M. Zafar Masud helped to mould the Pakistan Air Force into an effective fighting machine. Pakistan will remember him as one who made a great contribution towards the development of the Pakistan Air Force..." - Air Marshal (Retd.) Asghar Khan

"An exceptional fighter pilot... Masud...was widely respected and regarded as a probable future air force chief." 

- Air Chief Marshal (Retd.) Jamal A. Khan

***

Air Commodore Mohammad Zafar Masud is among the pioneers of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF). At the time of the partition of India in 1947, he was already an air force pilot and became the youngest founding member of the newly born Royal Pakistan Air Force (later Pakistan Air Force). In the PAF, he was affectionately known as "Mitty Masud" and is remembered as a top-rated fighter pilot and "the most brilliant planner and professional commander ever produced by PAF" (Retired Air Marshal Inam-ul-Haq Khan). Masud was also posted to East Pakistan (now Bangladesh) and held the positions of Air Officer Commanding and Unified Commander of Eastern Military High Command at a time when Pakistan was confronted with great political turmoil in its East wing.

Air Commodore Masud's contributions to the Air Force were well renowned. He led a formation of Sabre jets that set a world record in aviation. As part of building the PAF, Masud also founded the Fighter Leaders' School (now known as the Combat Commanders' School). This institution has earned a reputation as the 'Top Gun' base of the Pakistan Air Force. He also authored The Story of the Pakistan Air Force - A Saga of Courage and Honour, which provided an account of the PAF from 1947-1988. A hero of the 1965 war, Masud was awarded the second highest military honor in Pakistan, the Hilal-e-Jurat. Many pilots under Masud's command also received honors.

This book tells the captivating story of Air Commodore Masud's career, elucidates on the circumstances that prevailed in East Pakistan before its breakup from West Pakistan, and sheds light on how the Pakistani leadership's handling of the grave situation in the East wing led to Air Commodore Masud's resignation.

About the Author: 

Scholar and Historian Nasim Yousaf has conducted extensive research since 1996, primarily focused on Allama Mashriqi and Dr. Akhter Hameed Khan. His works have been published in prestigious academic and peer-reviewed journals in the United States of America. Thus far he has published 33 works, which include 14 books and 19 digital versions of rare and historical documents.

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## razgriz19

Korean delegation in PAC

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## Rocky rock

razgriz19 said:


> Korean delegation in PAC



For what purpose they are here.?


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## razgriz19

Rocky rock said:


> For what purpose they are here.?



To see our manufacturing capabilities, and perhaps for future collaboration


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## Rocky rock

razgriz19 said:


> To see our manufacturing capabilities, and perhaps for future collaboration



Did Pakistan has any plan to collaborate with Korea in this Field never heard of one before..!


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## razgriz19

Rocky rock said:


> Did Pakistan has any plan to collaborate with Korea in this Field never heard of one before..!



collaboration doesn't have to mean building a jet with them. It could just be buildings parts for their T-50 and other aircraft they're planning to manufacture. We have relatively cheap labour, we can offer them competitive prices. We are building parts for JF-17, we can do it for them as well.
PAC builds small parts for Boeing as well in case you didn't know that

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Rocky rock said:


> For what purpose they are here.?








The Korean Fighter X is similar to the JF-17 block III. 

There was also some news regarding PAF going for T-50 Golden Eagle which might be because of the US weapons that it can carry.

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## Rocky rock

razgriz19 said:


> collaboration doesn't have to mean building a jet with them. It could just be buildings parts for their T-50 and other aircraft they're planning to manufacture. We have relatively cheap labour, we can offer them competitive prices. We are building parts for JF-17, we can do it for them as well.
> PAC builds small parts for Boeing as well in case you didn't know that




I do know about Manufacturing Ability of "PAC" but I think here something else is going on. Maybe Pak want to use their help to co-develop Stealth version of jf-17 block 3. Are to Co-develop T-50 with them which has very rare chances.

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## Rocky rock

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> View attachment 211889
> 
> 
> The Korean Fighter X is similar to the JF-17 block III.
> 
> There was also some news regarding PAF going for T-50 Golden Eagle which might be because of the US weapons that it can carry.



That's what I am talking about. But I think there are very rare chance's that pak will go for it now. Because they already in to thunder project. The only thing which seems possible is they may get help from Korea for 3rd Stealth block of jf-17..

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## DrWatson775

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> View attachment 211889
> 
> 
> The Korean Fighter X is similar to the JF-17 block III.
> 
> There was also some news regarding PAF going for T-50 Golden Eagle which might be because of the US weapons that it can carry.



I don't think design for block III is confirmed yet..... so too early to say if it looks like that. (Maybe there are no significant design changes).

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## proxy

fatman17 said:


> 3.India finalises plans for 40 more SU-30MKIs:
> clearence has been given for the US $ 1.6 Billion deal to purchase 40 SU-30MKIs from Russia for the IAF. the additional 40 SU-30MKIs will give the IAF a fleet of 230 SU-30MKIs. the indian govt has asked HAL to complete the delivery of these aircraft by 2013-14 instead of the originally planned 2016-17


pakistan needs to buy more aircraft and focus on strategic partnership with china to make more modern fighter jets like JF 17 thunder

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## ACE OF THE AIR

DrWatson775 said:


> I don't think design for block III is confirmed yet..... so too early to say if it looks like that. (Maybe there are no significant design changes).









Though this is a multi-engined Catic designed fighter.
There was an other picture which i have lost it was for a single engine fighter aircraft made by the same company and it was thought that this would be the JF-17 Stealth version and that looked similar to the Korean Fighter X without the Bubble canopy. There have been reports that PAF is looking for improvements in the canopy design on this forum but the issue is that the technology for such a canopy is not available through the US. So it might be possible that either South Korea or Iran which has this this technology might be able to sell it to Pakistan. Though the above pic shows a thirf type of canopy that can also be used in the future JF-17 blocks. 

There are also reports that PAF is interested in the T-50 Golden Eagle and so are some other ME countries. This might indicate that PAC and the KAI are interested in co-production of existing aircraft and joint venture on future aircraft.

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## IrbiS

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/585767991712747521

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## Drebin

IrbiS said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/585767991712747521


Shahbaz Airbase is in Jacobabad, Sindh. Not in Balochistan. Our dear friend Alan might have confused the geography a bit I guess

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## RAMPAGE

razgriz19 said:


> Korean delegation in PAC


What are they doing with rear fuselages of J-7s?

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## ACE OF THE AIR

RAMPAGE said:


> What are they doing with rear fuselages of J-7s?


Looks like they are showing the manufacturing facility of PAC.

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## RAMPAGE

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Looks like they are showing the manufacturing facility of PAC.


By disassembling aircrafts lol?

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## ACE OF THE AIR

RAMPAGE said:


> By disassembling aircrafts lol?


F-7's were also assembled in Pakistan, may be PAC started to locally produce the aft section so that these were closer to the F-7PG's. Hence these could be old J-7 parts that have been replaced or are being replaced at this time.

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## ghazi52

F-6 were also assembled in Pakistan, by PAC. and disassembled for overall.

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## razgriz19

RAMPAGE said:


> By disassembling aircrafts lol?



Have you ever seen a letter check on a commercial aircraft?
they basically rebuild the whole airplane from ground up

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## ACE OF THE AIR

razgriz19 said:


> Have you ever seen a letter check on a commercial aircraft?
> they basically rebuild the whole airplane from ground up


Overview of a Boeing 747 undergoing a comprehensive inspection known as the D-Check.

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## RAMPAGE

razgriz19 said:


> Have you ever seen a letter check on a commercial aircraft?
> they basically rebuild the whole airplane from ground up


Sure but the guy suggested that they were reassembling the aircrafts just to show the delegation that we can do so.

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## razgriz19

RAMPAGE said:


> Sure but the guy suggested that they were reassembling the aircrafts just to show the delegation that we can do so.



that's not what he meant, he was saying that they were showing the delegation F-7 over haul shop/re-assemble shop.

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## salman-1

I've been to Kaamra F-6/7 and Mirage rebuild factory in late 90's. Have seen both factories with a Engineer a far off Relative now retd. First I saw Mirage V DP WITH NEWLY ROSE project on them. Sat in its cockpit with some breifing by that freind. I saw the newly installed LCD's for bombing computer and Navigation. It was awesome. The both overhauling facilities were very systematic in the sense a lot of descriptions for every stage is mentioned like you saw Rear fuselage assembly section. F-7P/PG both have engine overhaul after every 600-700 hrs of flying. It takes 1.5 months to complete full over haul of F-7 these times. They even take Hi Imaging X-rays for hair fractures in the air frames. A lot of air frame repair is made beyond our imagination. Every hydraulic pipe is replaced and every screw replaced. Parts have their own story. Whole aircraft is spread in diff sections of PAC. Every aspect is computerized and fed for its status

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## Gryphon

Jordan has refused to sell upto 16 second hand F-16A/B Block 15 ADF aircraft to Pakistan, a source has claimed.

The source further said that the former has cited its operations against ISIS terror group and Houthi rebels in Yemen as the reason for the refusal. These aircraft have undergone MLU and are similar in capabilities to the Block 40/42 standard.

Another source has indicated that PAF may purchase a squadron of 18 new F-16C/D Block 50/52+ aircraft approved by the US Congress several years ago.

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## zeeshanvita

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Jordan has refused to sell upto 16 second hand F-16A/B Block 15 ADF aircraft to Pakistan, a source has claimed.
> 
> The source further said that the former has cited its operations against ISIS terror group and Houthi rebels in Yemen as the reason for the refusal. These aircraft have undergone MLU and are similar in capabilities to the Block 40/42 standard.
> 
> Another source has indicated that PAF may purchase a squadron of 18 new F-16C/D Block 50/52+ aircraft approved by the US Congress several years ago.


If Pakistan go for new F16block 52...it will take min another 3 years to get delivered...

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## ACE OF THE AIR

zeeshanvita said:


> If Pakistan go for new F16block 52...it will take min another 3 years to get delivered...


Not really there are orders on hold of IRAQ which can be sent to Pakistan.


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## zeeshanvita

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Not really there are orders on hold of IRAQ which can be sent to Pakistan.


we can only assume that...but its not necessary..


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## araz

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Jordan has refused to sell upto 16 second hand F-16A/B Block 15 ADF aircraft to Pakistan, a source has claimed.
> 
> The source further said that the former has cited its operations against ISIS terror group and Houthi rebels in Yemen as the reason for the refusal. These aircraft have undergone MLU and are similar in capabilities to the Block 40/42 standard.
> 
> Another source has indicated that PAF may purchase a squadron of 18 new F-16C/D Block 50/52+ aircraft approved by the US Congress several years ago.


It is an interesting bit of news. Is the refusal another facet of our punishment for refusing to be a part of the team in yemen or is it a genuine need of Jordan. If do how long will they hold out. Various numbers from 6 to 14 have been quoted by various people that one talks to. If we do go down that line then does it mean J31 is a long way away from induction or not a realistic prospect.
Araz


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## RAMPAGE

araz said:


> It is an interesting bit of news. Is the refusal another facet of our punishment for refusing to be a part of the team in yemen or is it a genuine need of Jordan. If do how long will they hold out. Various numbers from 6 to 14 have been quoted by various people that one talks to. If we do go down that line then does it mean J31 is a long way away from induction or not a realistic prospect.
> Araz


Considering our budget,J31 is not a viable option.


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## HRK

RAMPAGE said:


> Considering our budget,J31 is not a viable option.



J-31 is the 'solution' not the 'option' .....

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## Donatello

araz said:


> It is an interesting bit of news. Is the refusal another facet of our punishment for refusing to be a part of the team in yemen or is it a genuine need of Jordan. If do how long will they hold out. Various numbers from 6 to 14 have been quoted by various people that one talks to. If we do go down that line then does it mean J31 is a long way away from induction or not a realistic prospect.
> Araz



Sir,

J-31 is not a a reality today. It will be a minimum of 5 years before it is known as a combat aircraft. However, it is a future, viable option, assuming Chinese want to export it and maybe do a ToT for local produciton.



TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Jordan has refused to sell upto 16 second hand F-16A/B Block 15 ADF aircraft to Pakistan, a source has claimed.
> 
> The source further said that the former has cited its operations against ISIS terror group and Houthi rebels in Yemen as the reason for the refusal. These aircraft have undergone MLU and are similar in capabilities to the Block 40/42 standard.
> 
> Another source has indicated that PAF may purchase a squadron of 18 new F-16C/D Block 50/52+ aircraft approved by the US Congress several years ago.



I was surprised when the news of the first 14 Jordanian f-16s broke out, Jordan was in a messy situation then, and they still parted with those jets. So yes, they have a credible threat and they need all the firepower they can muster. Purchasing 6 new F-16s didn't make any sense, since all PAF procurements have been at least somewhat a squadron strength....14 ex EDA, 14 Jordanian ones and then 18 new BLK52. So hopefully, PAF would want another squadron.


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## RAMPAGE

HRK said:


> J-31 is the 'solution' not the 'option' .....


A 4++ gen twin engine aircraft is the solution and will do for now.

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## Indus Falcon

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Not really there are orders on hold of IRAQ which can be sent to Pakistan.


If memory serves me right, the Iraqis did order the Blk52+ but hey are getting is slightly inferior. @Windjammer any details?

Secondly, like I've said on this forum before, IF you wan to upgrade PAF's capability in a short span of time, then upgrade the current F16's with SABR APG-83.


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## Kompromat

RAMPAGE said:


> A 4++ gen twin engine aircraft is the solution and will do for now.



No it's not.

Our gap is non existent.

Rafales will arrive in 2017, won't be operational until 2019 due to training, doctrine issues.

T-50 is in bad weather, Russia has no money & is lacking in technology to deliver it in time. As things are going IAF won't have operational T-50 before 2020-21

Our sixteens & seventeens plus SAMs, AWACs can do their primari job just fine till 2020, we don't need a new platform. More Block-52s are welcomed, however another solution would be to buy 60 odd Norwegian sixteens and put them through SABR F-16V AESA upgrade. 60 odd AESA upgraded F-16s will give us equal capability to Rafale, in strong numbers.

FC-31 is a great prospect. We ought to join the program along the lines of JF-17 Thunder program. I expect it to be operational around 2020-21 timeline.

@araz

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## Sine Nomine

RAMPAGE said:


> A 4++ gen twin engine aircraft is the solution and will do for now.


Mig 35 is an option Russian is dying to sell and already we are using same engine which is used on Mig 35(RD-33mk,RD-93)



Horus said:


> No it's not.
> 
> Our gap is non existent.
> 
> Rafales will arrive in 2017, won't be operational until 2019 due to training, doctrine issues.
> 
> T-50 is in bad weather, Russia has no money & is lacking in technology to deliver it in time. As things are going IAF won't have operational T-50 before 2020-21
> 
> Our sixteens & seventeens plus SAMs, AWACs can do their primari job just fine till 2020, we don't need a new platform. More Block-52s are welcomed, however another solution would be to buy 60 odd Norwegian sixteens and put them through SABR F-16V AESA upgrade. 60 odd AESA upgraded F-16s will give us equal capability to Rafale, in strong numbers.
> 
> FC-31 is a great prospect. We ought to join the program along the lines of JF-17 Thunder program. I expect it to be operational around 2020-21 timeline.
> 
> @araz


Sir in current environment we have to stop being to much India centric no doubt it's our mortal enemy.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Indus Falcon said:


> If memory serves me right, the Iraqis did order the Blk52+ but hey are getting is slightly inferior. @Windjammer any details?
> 
> Secondly, like I've said on this forum before, IF you wan to upgrade PAF's capability in a short span of time, then upgrade the current F16's with SABR APG-83.




Capability can be upgraded though and does not require any structural changes. If Pakistan gets the 18 block 52's it had to delay and the remaining 10 IQ that would give 28 more block 52's. This would be enough for the time being to counter the 36 Rafale's that India has ordered.


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## DrWatson775

It seems PAFs answer to SU30s and Rafale(at least till 2020-22) is the battle proven F16 (mlu, adf, block 52). I think they are gonna try to get the numbers above 100 in the next 2-3 years one way or the other.

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## Hurter

PAF should consider Mig-35 if U.S doesn't cooperate.

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## fatman17

araz said:


> It is an interesting bit of news. Is the refusal another facet of our punishment for refusing to be a part of the team in yemen or is it a genuine need of Jordan. If do how long will they hold out. Various numbers from 6 to 14 have been quoted by various people that one talks to. If we do go down that line then does it mean J31 is a long way away from induction or not a realistic prospect.
> Araz




Sir talk is cheap. Why would Jordan sell off its F16s beyond the ANF models

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## Indus Falcon

Horus said:


> No it's not.
> 
> Our gap is non existent.
> 
> Rafales will arrive in 2017, won't be operational until 2019 due to training, doctrine issues.
> 
> T-50 is in bad weather, Russia has no money & is lacking in technology to deliver it in time. As things are going IAF won't have operational T-50 before 2020-21
> 
> Our sixteens & seventeens plus SAMs, AWACs can do their primari job just fine till 2020, we don't need a new platform. More Block-52s are welcomed, however another solution would be to buy 60 odd Norwegian sixteens and put them through SABR F-16V AESA upgrade. 60 odd AESA upgraded F-16s will give us equal capability to Rafale, in strong numbers.
> 
> FC-31 is a great prospect. We ought to join the program along the lines of JF-17 Thunder program. I expect it to be operational around 2020-21 timeline.
> 
> @araz


Sometimes you are like a breath of fresh air on this forum. God Bless you!!

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## araz

fatman17 said:


> Sir talk is cheap. Why would Jordan sell off its F16s beyond the ANF models


Sir Fatman.
Iam only responding to news which has been reported by Janes in the past if I remember correctly. There was talk of PAF buying the whole fleet and Jordan getting replacement from uncle Sam( bl. 32/42s ). I understand the current fix Jordan is in and the fact that these 16s are MLUed so it always seemed unlikely however I can only go by what is reported.
@Horus.
I fully agree with your assessment. Just because IAF has talked of buying Rafales does not mean we have to respond immediately. Our planners have taken into account whatever our opposition is in the process of buying. The real and only future prospect is J31 if and when it is mature. Not knowing what is going on at that front, I suggested alternatives. So it is either J31 or ABC.
Araz

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## RAMPAGE

Horus said:


> No it's not.
> 
> Our gap is non existent.
> 
> Rafales will arrive in 2017, won't be operational until 2019 due to training, doctrine issues.
> 
> T-50 is in bad weather, Russia has no money & is lacking in technology to deliver it in time. As things are going IAF won't have operational T-50 before 2020-21
> 
> Our sixteens & seventeens plus SAMs, AWACs can do their primari job just fine till 2020, we don't need a new platform. More Block-52s are welcomed, however another solution would be to buy 60 odd Norwegian sixteens and put them through SABR F-16V AESA upgrade. 60 odd AESA upgraded F-16s will give us equal capability to Rafale, in strong numbers.
> 
> FC-31 is a great prospect. We ought to join the program along the lines of JF-17 Thunder program. I expect it to be operational around 2020-21 timeline.
> 
> @araz


Those Norwegian F16s have not been offered nor do we need them. JF17 blk 3 will do. 

It is not exactly a gap but a configration conflicting the need for taking out SAMs and other out of range military installations such as air bases stationing SU30s. That will be necessary considering IAFs numerical superiority and our inability to counter it once in the air and also to pave way for ground offence which is enevitable because of our narrow land mass.

PAF's bombing campaigns have always payed off in the past wars and were the reason behind successful containing of IAF. Alas PAF has been ignoring that art. We should have gone for a strike aircraft once the sanctions had been lifted. 

@MastanKhan @araz

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## ACE OF THE AIR

RAMPAGE said:


> Those Norwegian F16s have not been offered nor do we need them. JF17 blk 3 will do.
> 
> It is not exactly a gap but a configration conflicting the need for taking out SAMs and other out of range military installations such as air bases stationing SU30s. That will be necessary considering IAFs numerical superiority and our inability to counter it once in the air and also to pave way for ground offence which is enevitable because of our narrow land mass.
> 
> PAF's bombing campaigns have always payed off in the past wars and were the reason behind successful containing of IAF. Alas PAF has been ignoring that art. We should have gone for a strike aircraft once the sanctions had been lifted.
> 
> @MastanKhan @araz



You might be correct regarding the Norwegian F-16's but what about the Greek ones?

The JF-17 block 3 would do well when it is produced in a couple of years but till then we have not yet seen the full integration of the JF-17bk 2's. 

PAF continuously trains for asymmetric warfare so they would be well aware of the capabilities of SU30's. The only issue that one might think of is the numerical imbalance. 

PAF relies on the Mirage III/V's for bombing campaigns which might not be possible till they find a proper replacement. 

The problem PAC is having is that they are still not able to attain the target number per anum in producing JF-17's.

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## CHI RULES

*sir don't u think option already given as Pak should get up to 18 F16 get 36 odd F16s fitted with Aesa Radar. *Similarly limited induction of J10 bs is also viable option with AESA radars. If Pak going for 1000Million deal for Cobras and Helfire than it may arrange funds for them.
*Further as news is spreading that Pak and Russia Mi35 deal is on hold, further Russia shall not be willing to provide capable fighter jet like Su 35 to Pak.*

( Further Pak should try to get at least 18 J15s supported by same number of Jf17 block -2 for naval warfare as soon as possible)

What happened of Nawab shah based new Jf17 production facility?

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## syed_yusuf

PAF options are as follows - the way i see it

get 72 MLUed F-16 of that we have 58 already delivered
get 36 blk 52 of that we already have 18
that is total of 6 F-16 squadrons

build 10 squadrons of JF-17 by 2018-20

the above plan will leave PAF with 3 F-7PG squadrons and 1 CCS squadrons 

invest in FC/J-31 to be inducted post 2020. 

invest in Advance AWACS, layered air defense

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## Kompromat

@RAMPAGE 

AFAIK the the Norwegian machines are on offer. Russian sabre rattling might push their JSF purchase meaning that we might be able to pick them from 2017 onwards if the deal goes through.

I'm a big supporter of JF-17 Block-3 but it won't be more capable than an F-16 with an AESA radar upgrade.

FC-31 should be looked at seriously, and we should be planning for an air sea battle as it is likely that the next invasion might take place from our coast.


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## RAMPAGE

Horus said:


> @RAMPAGE
> 
> AFAIK the the Norwegian machines are on offer. Russian sabre rattling might push their JSF purchase meaning that we might be able to pick them from 2017 onwards if the deal goes through.
> 
> I'm a big supporter of JF-17 Block-3 but it won't be more capable than an F-16 with an AESA radar upgrade.
> 
> FC-31 should be looked at seriously, and we should be planning for an air sea battle as it is likely that the next invasion might take place from our coast.


Won't be more capable but they will have more life. 

I am all for FC31 but considering our budget, it is unlikely that we'll see it soon in PAF colors.

The way i see it, JH7B with approx 2000km combat radius seems like the only option we have.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Horus said:


> @RAMPAGE
> 
> AFAIK the the Norwegian machines are on offer. Russian sabre rattling might push their JSF purchase meaning that we might be able to pick them from 2017 onwards if the deal goes through.
> 
> I'm a big supporter of JF-17 Block-3 but it won't be more capable than an F-16 with an AESA radar upgrade.
> 
> FC-31 should be looked at seriously, and we should be planning for an air sea battle as it is likely that the next invasion might take place from our coast.


Why are we only looking at J-31's? 

The TFX and KFX are also going to be available by 2020. 
TFX would be a better choice but the limitation is the EJ-200 engine.



RAMPAGE said:


> Won't be more capable but they will have more life.
> 
> I am all for FC31 but considering our budget, it is unlikely that we'll see it soon in PAF colors.
> 
> The way i see it, JH7B with approx 2000km combat radius seems like the only option we have.


There are some reports that PAF is interested in T-50 Golden Eagle. That is also similar to the F-16's. What do you think?


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## MastanKhan

There is some good news coming from Paf in the near future. Extremely good news.

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## K.P.K

MastanKhan said:


> There is some good news coming from Paf in the near future. Extremely good news.



Don't tease us Mastan Bahi, Patience is not our virtue, Give us a hint.

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## zeeshanvita

MastanKhan said:


> There is some good news coming from Paf in the near future. Extremely good news.


Comon Mr Mastan elaborate a little bit..

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## MastanKhan

I dont want to be the reason for added "heart burn". But news is going to be good.

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## HRK

MastanKhan said:


> I dont want to be the reason for added "heart burn". But news is going to be good.



so is that news about 18 new soola .... ???

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## Manticore

MastanKhan said:


> I dont want to be the reason for added "heart burn". But news is going to be good.


please atleast tell us the vendor

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## MastanKhan

HRK said:


> so is that news about 18 new soola .... ???





Well---it could be, but it is not. But when it is announced, it will be a good surprise.

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## Donatello

MastanKhan said:


> I dont want to be the reason for added "heart burn". But news is going to be good.



Now you are being a naughty boy. Is this related to Pakistan's 'Make in America' agenda? 



Manticore said:


> please atleast tell us the vendor



Yea man, as if Lockheed Martin is mentioned, and people would think maybe Pakistan is buying howitzers from them? 



MastanKhan said:


> Well---it could be, but it is not. But when it is announced, it will be a good surprise.



How long do we have to wait before we can rub it in the face of Indians?


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## MastanKhan

RAMPAGE said:


> Those Norwegian F16s have not been offered nor do we need them. JF17 blk 3 will do.
> 
> It is not exactly a gap but a configration conflicting the need for taking out SAMs and other out of range military installations such as air bases stationing SU30s. That will be necessary considering IAFs numerical superiority and our inability to counter it once in the air and also to pave way for ground offence which is enevitable because of our narrow land mass.
> 
> PAF's bombing campaigns have always payed off in the past wars and were the reason behind successful containing of IAF. Alas PAF has been ignoring that art. We should have gone for a strike aircraft once the sanctions had been lifted.
> 
> @MastanKhan @araz



Hi,

F16s will always be the backbone of paf. I would like to see a minimum number of120of 120 F16s. I would also like to see at least 80 J10 Bs and Cs. I would like to see at least 18 JH7Bs for the navy + 18 JF17 naval versions, and around 200 + JF17s For air force.

The air force may have other options available.

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## Donatello

araz said:


> Sir Fatman.
> Iam only responding to news which has been reported by Janes in the past if I remember correctly. There was talk of PAF buying the whole fleet and Jordan getting replacement from uncle Sam( bl. 32/42s ). I understand the current fix Jordan is in and the fact that these 16s are MLUed so it always seemed unlikely however I can only go by what is reported.
> @Horus.
> I fully agree with your assessment. Just because IAF has talked of buying Rafales does not mean we have to respond immediately. Our planners have taken into account whatever our opposition is in the process of buying. The real and only future prospect is J31 if and when it is mature. Not knowing what is going on at that front, I suggested alternatives. So it is either J31 or ABC.
> Araz



Jordan refusing f-16s has nothing to do with Yemen and GCC non-sense. Jordanians couldn't care less about GCC's adventures in Yemen. I always found how much the Arabs differ among themselves. Those with oil and those without it. Jordan needs aerial assets for itself, because of the flames at its own borders. Pakistan should depute a squadron of strike aircraft to Jordan, and rub it in the face of the UAE and Saudis.


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## RAMPAGE

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> F16s will always be the backbone of paf. I would like to see a minimum number of120of 120 F16s. I would also like to see at least 80 J10 Bs and Cs. I would like to see at least 18 JH7Bs for the navy + 18 JF17 naval versions, and around 200 + JF17s For air force.
> 
> The air force may have other options available.


Why J10bs?


----------



## MastanKhan

Donatello said:


> Now you are being a naughty boy. Is this related to Pakistan's 'Make in America' agenda?
> 
> 
> 
> Yea man, as if Lockheed Martin is mentioned, and people would think maybe Pakistan is buying howitzers from them?
> 
> 
> 
> How long do we have to wait before we can rub it in the face of Indians?




Hi,

I cant disclose anything that i dont know---hehn---but remember, if we csn go for 8 submarines, we csn also spend mor on the aircrsft as well.

Just my assessment------we are waiting for what kind of package the rafale will have, even though we know it but still.

They waited too long across the border for the rafale. It has given us enough time to plan.



RAMPAGE said:


> Why J10bs?




Because of aesa, it will be an excellent choice. The f16s are not available with aesa.

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## Donatello

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I cant disclose anything that i dont know---hehn---but remember, if we csn go for 8 submarines, we csn also spend mor on the aircrsft as well.
> 
> Just my assessment------we are waiting for what kind of package the rafale will have, even though we know it but still.
> 
> They waited too long across the border for the rafale. It has given us enough time to plan.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Because of aesa, it will be an excellent choice. The f16s are not available with aesa.



True, Rafale ain't coming before 2018 at least, because there will be teething issues, that is guaranteed. So 2-3 more years of breathing space. By the time Rafale fleet is up and fully combat ready, i am not even sure if it would be relevent, with the Chinese and Russian 5th gen aircraft being available.

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## K.P.K

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I cant disclose anything that i dont know---hehn---but remember, if we csn go for 8 submarines, we csn also spend mor on the aircrsft as well.
> 
> Just my assessment------we are waiting for what kind of package the rafale will have, even though we know it but still.
> 
> They waited too long across the border for the rafale. It has given us enough time to plan.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Because of aesa, it will be an excellent choice. The f16s are not available with aesa.



Oh boy I hope it's j10 with Aesa, It's the only way forward for Pakistan, I agree with you we should get more f16 raise the number to 100 plus but at the same time we should be looking at j10 in similar numbers, j31 is a long way off and IAF has Su30, upgraded mirages and now Rafael coming in to the mix.

Jf 17 is good for point defence, defensive roles, it's short legged and carries less payload, it's perfect for second line and stand off attacks but we need air superiority fighter and j10 can fit that role well something that even JF17 third block won't be able to do truly.

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## RAMPAGE

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I cant disclose anything that i dont know---hehn---but remember, if we csn go for 8 submarines, we csn also spend mor on the aircrsft as well.
> 
> Just my assessment------we are waiting for what kind of package the rafale will have, even though we know it but still.
> 
> They waited too long across the border for the rafale. It has given us enough time to plan.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Because of aesa, it will be an excellent choice. The f16s are not available with aesa.


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## mingle

MastanKhan said:


> Well---it could be, but it is not. But when it is announced, it will be a good surprise.


Khan sb my hinch is different it may typhoons with saudi help I feel it's workable .f 16 may be but there is space for third plane and typhoon is in desire list of PAF 36 to 56 is nice decent addition plus BAE also looking for bussiness But if saudi money is there then never forger yanks too they may offer us F 15 s reason is bussiness for Boeing typhoon and F15 R planes of same league when money is there then nobody can beat yanks .

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## fatman17

PAF is already utilising the current JFT fleet in operation Zarb-e-Azb according to a tweet by Alan warnes who was interviewing the new CAS .warnes is on a visit to PAF bases. Hope to see a writeup soon in AFM


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## fatman17

According to the new CAS the JFT remains it's prime focus.


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## AsifIjaz

J10C is or will be enough to give Rafael a good run for whats its worth. It might be in the development phase at this moment but there are 2 years to go to bring more out of an airframe which is very agile and tested for quite a few years. You just need to incorporate the most capable of the sensors / technology in it.
- J31 will be good for PAK-FA or any other similar aircraft.
- JF-17 block 3 must be at the very least equal to or better than block 52.
- Pakistan will not add more than 1 more aircraft in its inventory. with all the suppliers in mind T-50 will not be a good idea.

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## zeeshanvita

AsifIjaz said:


> J10C is or will be enough to give Rafael a good run for whats its worth. It might be in the development phase at this moment but there are 2 years to go to bring more out of an airframe which is very agile and tested for quite a few years. You just need to incorporate the most capable of the sensors / technology in it.
> - J31 will be good for PAK-FA or any other similar aircraft.
> - JF-17 block 3 must be at the very least equal to or better than block 52.
> - Pakistan will not add more than 1 more aircraft in its inventory. with all the suppliers in mind T-50 will not be a good idea.


I personally think...J10C will be better then Rafael...

JF17 Block 3 will defiantly be better then block 52..

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## aliyusuf

zeeshanvita said:


> I personally think...J10C will be better then Rafael...
> 
> JF17 Block 3 will defiantly be better then block 52..



I think first we should wait till these fighters become a physical reality and then get their Pakistani colors on them.
Only after the feedback from their eventual trial and evaluation can we begin to gauge their worthiness.

Because if we go by past experience ... JF-17 block-2 (barring one or two extra features) is actually what JF-17 block-1 should have been.

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## mingle

fatman17 said:


> According to the new CAS the JFT remains it's prime focus.


Sir G free drink is always welcome especially when it is redbull from friendly country



zeeshanvita said:


> I personally think...J10C will be better then Rafael...
> 
> JF17 Block 3 will defiantly be better then block 52..


My take is FC20 time is over when we r working on J 31 more likely what khan sb said it In lines could European fighter .

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## alimobin memon

Pakistan cannot afford to buy planes every other day. it has to think wisely. the jets inducted are put to service for more than 20 years and in PAF case could be 30+ years. Pakistan cannot and should not buy fc20 or any 4th generation or 4+ or 4++ fighters should focus on 5th generation for the new planes are to serve for more than 2 decades. STOP with FC20

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## fatman17

alimobin memon said:


> Pakistan cannot afford to buy planes every other day. it has to think wisely. the jets inducted are put to service for more than 20 years and in PAF case could be 30+ years. Pakistan cannot and should not buy fc20 or any 4th generation or 4+ or 4++ fighters should focus on 5th generation for the new planes are to serve for more than 2 decades. STOP with FC20



For the moment top priority is inducting more JFTs and convincing the US to release further examples of F16s either new or EDA.

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## fatman17

The J31 is a few years away but it is understood that it will be the first export customer for this type.

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## Baloch Pakistani

Khan sb gives very credible news, and i hope this time his news is also true. Pakistan is giving surprise py surprise these days and khan sb said it will be a big surprise. So my money is on Typhoon bcz that will bring a powerful aesa radar and most importantly Meteor AAM. And that will give pakistan a true air superiority fighter.  

Fingers crossed.

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## Gryphon

Baloch Pakistani said:


> my money is on Typhoon bcz that will bring a powerful aesa radar and most importantly Meteor AAM. And that will give pakistan a true *air superiority fighter*.





I believe this surprise by @MastanKhan is going to be the induction of first two JF-17 Block 2's into PAF by the end of this month
OR
The purchase of 18 new F-16C/D Block 50/52+ aircraft in a deal worth around $1.5 billion.

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## Baloch Pakistani

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> I believe this surprise by @MastanKhan is going to be the induction of first two JF-17 Block 2's into PAF by the end of this month
> OR
> The purchase or 18 new F-16C/D Block 50/52+ aircraft in a deal worth around $1.5 billion.



 No way, he said that that surprise is not new F-16's. I think either its eurofighter or its J-10b/c. Induction of two thunder blk2 is not a surprise yara. But he also said that for that surprise we will have to wait for the indian deal of rafale, and i'm sure that deal is gone completely gone. They already operate 8 to 9 types of fighter jets and im sure they are not going to induct 36 rafale's and increase a logistics and maintenance nightmare from which they are going through at the moment aur wo bhi sirf 36 jets ki khatir. 36 jets deal was a face saving deal for IAF but i have no doubt that this deal will also be cancelled. So if no rafale for india then its no typhoon or j10 for pakistan. Way to go my Thunder

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## ALPHYN

I think it wont be a big surprise . it might be confirmation of PAF buying old f-16s from jordan

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## alimobin memon

fatman17 said:


> For the moment top priority is inducting more JFTs and convincing the US to release further examples of F16s either new or EDA.


thanks i know that thats what im saying stick to current platform buy something only when its affordable and worth to serve for decades

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## Baloch Pakistani

alimobin memon said:


> thanks i know that thats what im saying stick to current platform buy something only when its affordable and worth to serve for decades



Isnt Meteor AAM worth to server for decades?

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## alimobin memon

Baloch Pakistani said:


> Isnt Meteor AAM worth to server for decades?


its a missile we are talking about fighter aircrafts. I think since jf17 has open source bases architecure it can be equipped with meteor aam.

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## Baloch Pakistani

alimobin memon said:


> its a missile we are talking about fighter aircrafts. I think since jf17 has open source bases architecure it can be equipped with meteor aam.



Actually i was talking about Meteor with typhoon jet. Indians are also exploring the possibilities of integrating this AAM with their Su-30's, but if we make a deal of purchasing the eurofighter then it will be alot easier to get meteor otherwise say bye bye to this aam for our thunder.

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## alimobin memon

Baloch Pakistani said:


> Actually i was talking about Meteor with typhoon jet. Indians are also exploring the possibilities of integrating this AAM with their Su-30's, but if we make a deal of purchasing the eurofighter then it will be alot easier to get meteor otherwise say bye bye to this aam for our thunder.


Pakistan has a good and experience version of amraam with same capabilities as any bvr such as meteor. we already have 2 bvrs namely sd10 and Amraam. Meteor is another bvr of modern era. remember Pakistan has AIM 120 C5 variant which is as good as any modern missile but superior kill ratio. although amraam and sd10 dont have midcourse update they still are lethal in case of conflict. 
Pakistan on other hand cannot afford typhoon nor gripen nor rafale. so no meteor.

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## K.P.K

Hearing news that a Paf Mirage has crashed, not sure if any injuries. Hope no one got hurt.

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## Baloch Pakistani

alimobin memon said:


> Pakistan has a good and experience version of amraam with same capabilities as any bvr such as meteor. we already have 2 bvrs namely sd10 and Amraam. Meteor is another bvr of modern era. remember Pakistan has AIM 120 C5 variant which is as good as any modern missile but superior kill ratio. although amraam and sd10 dont have midcourse update they still are lethal in case of conflict.
> Pakistan on other hand cannot afford typhoon nor gripen nor rafale. so no meteor.



You can say that pakistan cannot afford typhoon so no meteor. But cmon man, how can you compare amraam and sd10 with next generation aam like meteor. It has no escape zone three times larger than aim120. Amraam is no match for meteor. And next gen aam for f35 is meteor, not amraam. Seriously, no comparison.

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## alimobin memon

Baloch Pakistani said:


> You can say that pakistan cannot afford typhoon so no meteor. But cmon man, how can you compare amraam and sd10 with next generation aam like meteor. It has no escape zone three times larger than aim120. Amraam is no match for meteor. And next gen aam for f35 is meteor, not amraam. Seriously, no comparison.


hmm right. that is indeed something never knew it had so much better no escape zone . in case of amraam its 20nm but if 3times that means meteor will have 60+nm. This is huge india has rafale deal completed now deliveries are imminent that is indeed worry some.

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## mingle

Baloch Pakistani said:


> Actually i was talking about Meteor with typhoon jet. Indians are also exploring the possibilities of integrating this AAM with their Su-30's, but if we make a deal of purchasing the eurofighter then it will be alot easier to get meteor otherwise say bye bye to this aam for our thunder.


I read somewhere that Saudis want thunder with westren engine not russian and that engine is euro fighter one so they have no issue in engine but it's big IF .?but for PAF it opens the door for possible westren engine and rolls Royce have no issue so in this logic it's win for BAE if they sell theior plane and engine to pak And saudia win win for every body .French already got theior share from gulf states with eygeption deal .buying new F 16 is not a big news now if pak will go with it may be only 18 with theior own money .If saudi and UAE money involved then it must be euro fighter they have long standing with dealing England .Pak needs a good strike plane for navel purpose JF 17 is short leg typhoons fit in that Bill mix of typhoons with Jf 17 for navy give good punch



K.P.K said:


> Hearing news that a Paf Mirage has crashed, not sure if any injuries. Hope no one got hurt.


These planes should retire now they need some rest they served well for pak

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## K.P.K

mingle said:


> I read somewhere that Saudis want thunder with westren engine not russian and that engine is euro fighter one so they have no issue in engine but it's big IF .?but for PAF it opens the door for possible westren engine and rolls Royce have no issue so in this logic it's win for BAE if they sell theior plane and engine to pak And saudia win win for every body .French already got theior share from gulf states with eygeption deal .buying new F 16 is not a big news now if pak will go with it may be only 18 with theior own money .If saudi and UAE money involved then it must be euro fighter they have long standing with dealing England .Pak needs a good strike plane for navel purpose JF 17 is short leg typhoons fit in that Bill mix of typhoons with Jf 17 for navy give good punch
> 
> 
> These planes should retire now they need some rest they served well for pak



Personally I wish the Paf had enough resources and budget to replace all mirages with the likes of j 10b or c, With heavier payload the j10 can easily take over the strike role etc, Mirages should have been replaced by now but we are still feeling the affects of the 90s s lost a decade for Paf.

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## mingle

K.P.K said:


> Personally I wish the Paf had enough resources and budget to replace all mirages with the likes of j 10b or c, With heavier payload the j19 can easily take over the strike role etc, Mirages should have been replaced by now but we are still feeling the affects of the 90s s lost a decade for Paf.


I agree it sum up with one thing that is $$$$$ but we should explore further like European tech if u can some money all things China is not good either there should be mix of west and east .

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## fatman17

Lots of rumour mongering going on

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## K.P.K

fatman17 said:


> Lots of rumour mongering going on



Well I hope some of these rumors are true.

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## RAMPAGE

fatman17 said:


> Lots of rumour mongering going on


What rumours exactly?

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## black-hawk_101

Is PAF planning?
32-52 F-16s Block-52s
more used F-16s Block-15s

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## Sulman Badshah

I am not confirmed about this but there are rumors spread in Kamra about PAF getting Su35

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## razgriz19

Sulman Badshah said:


> I am not confirmed about this but there are rumors spread in Kamra about PAF getting Su35



yeah i also hear we're getting Raptors

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## Sulman Badshah

razgriz19 said:


> yeah i also hear we're getting Raptors


i ain't trolling here ... time might reveal the news

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## syed_yusuf

no Su-35
and no sarcastic raptor 
may be more blk52 f-16 - one squadron
may be mlued 1 more f-16 squadron to make it total 6 mlued/blk52 squadrons


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## Sulman Badshah

syed_yusuf said:


> no Su-35
> and no sarcastic raptor
> may be more blk52 f-16 - one squadron
> may be mlued 1 more f-16 squadron to make it total 6 mlued/blk52 squadrons


PAF have option of 18 F16 block 52+ approved by US ... after that PAF might try for more 2nd hand F16


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## black-hawk_101

PAF might be negotiating for local assembly of RD-93B aka engine of MiG-35s for our JF-17s Block-II.


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## LonE_WolF

Sulman Badshah said:


> I am not confirmed about this but there are rumors spread in Kamra about PAF getting Su35


i heard something similar


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## Baloch Pakistani

@MastanKhan what does your sources say about su35? Is it possible? I have also heard this rumor from some guys in Wah Factory.


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## kaonalpha

Su 35 the air superiority fighter the product of generations of tested platform but this rumour has to be a farce

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## zeeshanvita

Baloch Pakistani said:


> @MastanKhan what does your sources say about su35? Is it possible? I have also heard this rumor from some guys in Wah Factory.


Wishful thinking...


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## CHI RULES

a heavy deal of helfire and AH1Z Cobra showes that Pak can manage funds however what they lack is proper planning.
For Su35 no doubt a capable 4.5th gen fighter but may prove to be nightmare for country like Pak as Su 30MKI are harder to be maintained by India.

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## kaonalpha

CHI RULES said:


> a heavy deal of helfire and AH1Z Cobra showes that Pak can manage funds however what they lack is proper planning.
> For Su35 no doubt a capable 4.5th gen fighter but may prove to be nightmare for country like Pak as Su 30MKI are harder to be maintained by India.


So should we wait for chinese copies

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## Kompromat

No need for another platform, prototype 31002 is under construction as per the reports. The PAF will be able to see first hand what it can & can't do. That should give us a reasonable assessment to throw the hat in the ring or not.

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## Donatello

zeeshanvita said:


> Wishful thinking...


Indeed one can say that, but it would be nice addition to the Naval support role....Navy needs long range, heavy aircraft that can penetrate the EW environment.
I know a twin engine, that too Russian jet doesn't make sense for Pakistan, but it will do wonders even if only one squadron is procured.


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## CHI RULES

Actually we should not wait go for J10 bs/ FC20 with AESA about 36 and should replace two squadrons of Mirage -IIIs for strike roles as early as possible to maintain capable strike factor of PAF. Mean while go for producing more JF-17 block2s and even block 3s as early as possible befor induction of J31.
Pakistan may get them at earliest like they did in case of F7Pgs.

However only Chinese Jet for which we will have to wait is J16 for naval role. Pak sholuld not go for any other version as it shall be capable naval strike fighter and may give tough time to 5th generation fighters in future. Considering how much Pakistan has dragged Mirage 5s for naval role. Further J16 shall be more maneuverable and difficult to tackle even by latest air defenses also having advantages of semi stealth and long range with high altitude ceiling.


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## Donatello

Horus said:


> No need for another platform, prototype 31002 is under construction as per the reports. The PAF will be able to see first hand what it can & can't do. That should give us a reasonable assessment to throw the hat in the ring or not.


Some reports from good sources indicate, a small Pakistani contingent is already evaluating the J-31 in China.


----------



## Kompromat

CHI RULES said:


> Actually we should not wait go for J10 bs/ FC20 with AESA about 36 and should replace two squadrons of Mirage -IIIs for strike roles as early as possible to maintain capable strike factor of PAF. Mean while go for producing more JF-17 block2s and even block 3s as early as possible befor induction of J31.
> Pakistan may get them at earliest like they did in case of F7Pgs.
> 
> However only Chinese Jet for which we will have to wait is J16 for naval role. Pak sholuld not go for any other version as it shall be capable naval strike fighter and may give tough time to 5th generation fighters in future. Considering how much Pakistan has dragged Mirage 5s for naval role. Further J16 shall be more maneuverable and difficult to tackle even by latest air defenses also having advantages of semi stealth and long range with high altitude ceiling.



No J-10B or J-16.

PAF doesn't want too many platforms, it wants to have F-16s, Thunders & FC-31, the later two have same engines.


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## CHI RULES

More chances for F16s but Pak should not create a graveyard of them like Mirages.
However in short time every thing will be cleared soon.


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## MadDog

Horus said:


> No J-10B or J-16.
> 
> PAF doesn't want too many platforms, it wants to have F-16s, Thunders & FC-31, the later two have same engines.


What's prototype 31002 ???


----------



## zeeshanvita

Donatello said:


> Indeed one can say that, but it would be nice addition to the Naval support role....Navy needs long range, heavy aircraft that can penetrate the EW environment.
> I know a twin engine, that too Russian jet doesn't make sense for Pakistan, but it will do wonders even if only one squadron is procured.


Maybe it is possible that Pakistan might have shown interest in SU35 because if we recall our memory minister for defence production did mention that Pakistan is interested in Russian aircraft and Gunship..however now Indian has shown some interest in SU35 and an even an advance form of SU35. 
So it is wishful thinking other wise I personally think SU35 can be the best option Pakistan can have..


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## CHI RULES

I have doubts abt Pak defence minister, he is perhaps not a credible source, have no knowledge abt defense.


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## Manticore

MadDog said:


> What's prototype 31002 ???

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## ACE OF THE AIR

mingle said:


> I read somewhere that Saudis want thunder with westren engine not russian and that engine is euro fighter one so they have no issue in engine but it's big IF .?but for PAF it opens the door for possible westren engine and rolls Royce have no issue so in this logic it's win for BAE if they sell theior plane and engine to pak And saudia win win for every body .


If this is true then PAF would likely jump to Turkish Fighter X project. 



K.P.K said:


> Personally I wish the Paf had enough resources and budget to replace all mirages with the likes of j 10b or c, With heavier payload the j10 can easily take over the strike role etc, Mirages should have been replaced by now but we are still feeling the affects of the 90s s lost a decade for Paf.



The thing is that PAF has spent a lot on these aircraft and it is a very cost effective aircraft. You might be aware that most Airforce's of the world do continue to maintain their old aircraft for some time even if they have been removed from active service so that they can be used for any emergency. PAF is continuing with these Mirages because PAF knows that even if they replace them today with a new type they would have to maintain these for some more time (lets say till 2019-2020) then why not fly them till that time. These can be then replaced by 5th Gen aircraft as well as the JF-17 Blocks would also have been upgraded to a very potent aircraft.



Horus said:


> No need for another platform, prototype 31002 is under construction as per the reports. The PAF will be able to see first hand what it can & can't do. That should give us a reasonable assessment to throw the hat in the ring or not.



What is the news on Stealth variant of JF-17. 
Any possibility PAF might be entering the TFX or KFX projects. The TFX has a single engine design as well which could be good addition.

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## fatman17

Hey while we are going to buy everything under the sun, might as well go for this

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## Donatello

fatman17 said:


> Hey while we are going to buy everything under the sun, might as well go for this



Zarvan can build this in his free time.
@Zarvan


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## SQ8

Donatello said:


> Zarvan can build this in his free time.
> @Zarvan


Its from America and a Zionist plot, I am surprised flight has not been declared haram yet.

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## Donatello

Oscar said:


> Its from America and a Zionist plot, I am surprised flight has not been declared haram yet.


Zarvan considers Leonardo da Vinci as true pioneer of flight.


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## SQ8

Donatello said:


> Zarvan considers Leonardo da Vinci as true pioneer of flight.


Dont tell me, did he convert to Islam later in his life? A fact buried by conspiracy.. little did we know that Leonardo da Vinci was actually Al Hajj Leonardi bin Vinci

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## Kompromat

Oscar said:


> Dont tell me, did he convert to Islam later in his life? A fact buried by conspiracy.. little did we know that Leonardo da Vinci was actually Al Hajj Leonardi bin Vinci



You deserve a ban Haji Oscar al Karachiite al kundi.

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## Donatello

Oscar said:


> Dont tell me, did he convert to Islam later in his life? A fact buried by conspiracy.. little did we know that Leonardo da Vinci was actually Al Hajj Leonardi bin Vinci



I am sure there are some Arabic scriptures indicating the same, somewhere in the Levant region.



Horus said:


> You deserve a ban Haji Oscar al Karachiite al kundi.


 .....extending it to bin Rashed bin Al Maktum bin al Gagash.


----------



## araz

Horus said:


> You deserve a ban Haji Oscar al Karachiite al kundi.


People
Sheikh Oscar roams around with his shalwar below the ankles and at Salah says Ameen loudly and does not do Rafa e yadain. He is a wahabi. Burn him!!!!! Sorry Oscar there can only be one sheikh in this community and Iam it!!! You can not be allowed to prosper. Either do bayat and tow the line or suffer the consequences. We can both share the tonne of halwa puri that I get daily as nazar once you join te team.
HaHa Ha.
Araz Mullah Fasaadi (aka) budha baba Araz.

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## Windjammer

Manticore said:


>


Don't want to blow the roof but hear strong chatter that Pakistan has invested in this project.
Anyways, have also heard that Thunders are practising to escort the Chinese President's plane once it enters Pakistan's air space.

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## Preacher

I think Russian aircraft might be an expensive option for PAF. 
Chines new Project j-31 seems perfect according to our needs.


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## django

I would go for the Iranian F-313 a fifth gen platform, hopefully as the relations between Pak and Iran are improving I don not see why we can not procure these remarkable pieces of tech.

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## Kompromat

django said:


> I would go for the Iranian F-313 a fifth gen platform, hopefully as the relations between Pak and Iran are improving I don not see why we can not procure these remarkable pieces of tech.

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## SipahSalar

django said:


> I would go for the Iranian F-313 a fifth gen platform, hopefully as the relations between Pak and Iran are improving I don not see why we can not procure these remarkable pieces of tech.


Bro that is a ridiculous idea. Just as F-22 is not for sale even to closest allies of USA, Qaher-313 is for no Air Force except Iran. They will outright reject the idea.
Please do not come up with such fantasies again.

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## zeeshanvita

django said:


> I would go for the Iranian F-313 a fifth gen platform, hopefully as the relations between Pak and Iran are improving I don not see why we can not procure these remarkable pieces of tech.


ok you go for it...)

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## Hurter

django said:


> I would go for the Iranian F-313 a fifth gen platform, hopefully as the relations between Pak and Iran are improving I don not see why we can not procure these remarkable pieces of tech.



Iran's fifth gen technology can easily be purchased from ebay.

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## alimobin memon

Junaid B said:


> Iran's fifth gen technology can easily be purchased from ebay.


just because its irani doesn't mean its not good. the design may get u decieved but always be sharp enough to let some of ur thoughts to think it might be lethal, dont u think ?

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## chauvunist

django said:


> I would go for the Iranian F-313 a fifth gen platform, hopefully as the relations between Pak and Iran are improving I don not see why we can not procure these remarkable pieces of tech.

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## Baloch Pakistani

django said:


> I would go for the Iranian F-313 a fifth gen platform, hopefully as the relations between Pak and Iran are improving I don not see why we can not procure these remarkable pieces of tech.



Cmon man this plane is a joke. They don't have the technology to make a stealth plane. They have the ambition but they don't have the tech.

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## Hurter

alimobin memon said:


> just because its irani doesn't mean its not good. the design may get u decieved but always be sharp enough to let some of ur thoughts to think it might be lethal, dont u think ?



Sir, American, Russian & Chinese technology is accepted everywhere. We are talking about only J-31 just because we do not have enough funds and China is the only country we have good relations with. Imagine selling JF-17 to South Korea who can buy latest F-16s and also having good relations with U.S.

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## Indus Falcon

django said:


> I would go for the Iranian F-313 a fifth gen platform, hopefully as the relations between Pak and Iran are improving I don not see why we can not procure these remarkable pieces of tech.


 Thanks!! I really needed a good laugh!!

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## ACE OF THE AIR

django said:


> I would go for the Iranian F-313 a fifth gen platform, hopefully as the relations between Pak and Iran are improving I don not see why we can not procure these remarkable pieces of tech.





Horus said:


>





SipahSalar said:


> Bro that is a ridiculous idea. Just as F-22 is not for sale even to closest allies of USA, Qaher-313 is for no Air Force except Iran. They will outright reject the idea.
> Please do not come up with such fantasies again.





Junaid B said:


> Iran's fifth gen technology can easily be purchased from ebay.





chauvunist said:


>





Baloch Pakistani said:


> Cmon man this plane is a joke. They don't have the technology to make a stealth plane. They have the ambition but they don't have the tech.





Indus Falcon said:


> Thanks!! I really needed a good laugh!!



Guys we are laughing at it but for once lets hypothetically consider Qaher-313.
1) It requires a bigger engine.
2) Its size needs to be increased so that it may carry a higher pay load.
3) One does not know what kind of anti stealth paint has been applied to it so it is not possible to say if it is truly a stealth. This thing can be improved though.
4) What kind of 5 gen radar and avionics have been added are all unknown. So one must consider them to be updated.
5) The over all design does seem like it can get airborne but then there are some ridiculous designs that have flown over time both US and Russian.
6) Possibly an external weapons delivery pod can be added.
7) The range is also a guarded secret so one must think it is not more than 800-1000 km's(it has 2 US copied engines).

At the end how a Pakistani would look at this is the entire aircraft needs to be redesigned. Though it might have potential to evolve.

How an Iranian would look at it is they would be able to get all the technology that was restricted for a long time. Though the Iranian technology would be lost but it might leave them with a true 5 Gen. fighter aircraft.

So,

If Iran does export this fighter aircraft it would still feel happy that they have won despite all the sanctions.



fatman17 said:


> Hey while we are going to buy everything under the sun, might as well go for this


It could be added to the PAF museum. There is a simulator of this in Royal Hendon Museum and it is really difficult to fly as it is too uncomfortable.



Oscar said:


> Its from America and a Zionist plot, I am surprised flight has not been declared haram yet.





Donatello said:


> Zarvan considers Leonardo da Vinci as true pioneer of flight.


If that is true then what do you think about under water designs that were also found made by Leonardo da Vinci. 

One must also consider how painful it must be for Archimedes if he is not considered as the one who pioneered the concept.

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## Preacher

Calm down guys that was a joke   
"Remarkable piece of tech"

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## DrWatson775

Possibility of announcement of a new deal for PAF when Chinese president visits. ?FC20 purchase(unlikely i think) ?J31MoU & joint production(possibly) OR maybe something new related to JF17s.

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## mingle

DrWatson775 said:


> Possibility of announcement of a new deal for PAF when Chinese president visits. ?FC20 purchase(unlikely i think) ?J31MoU & joint production(possibly) OR maybe something new related to JF17s.


FC 20 I guess With russian engines it was delayed due to engine issue .

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## Baloch Pakistani

There is only one hope for F-313, that china and russia help them to acquire the stealth technology (and also avionics and other tech) otherwise it won't be possible imho. And the size is too small, plz make it larger otherwise it would just be a defense air superiority fighter with no capability of attack bcz it cannot carry payload for bombing missions. Anyhow i'm not very hopeful. But who knows......



DrWatson775 said:


> Possibility of announcement of a new deal for PAF when Chinese president visits. ?FC20 purchase(unlikely i think) ?J31MoU & joint production(possibly) OR maybe something new related to JF17s.



I hope its J31. We should not go towards FC20 now, just get more F-16's MLU & blk52, and invest in this 5th gen platform and hope for the best that PL-13 or PL-12D (ramjet missile) is as capable as Meteor missile which india is getting with rafale and they are also trying to integrate it with su30.

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## fatman17

Windjammer said:


> Don't want to blow the roof but hear strong chatter that Pakistan has invested in this project.
> Anyways, have also heard that Thunders are practising to escort the Chinese President's plane once it enters Pakistan's air space.




Pt 1 maybe 
Pt 2 definitely

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## Windjammer

Group Captain Nasir's promotion cake.

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## VelocuR

Pakistan maybe can try to secure deal with Russia.

Tu-95 Bomber Bear

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Windjammer said:


> Group Captain Nasir's promotion cake.


What part would be cut first

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## HRK

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> What part would be cut first



pockets .....

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## Stephen Cohen

Windjammer said:


> Group Captain Nasir's promotion cake.



That is a very beautiful cake

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## Preacher

Windjammer said:


> Group Captain Nasir's promotion cake.


I want that for my birthday

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## Eagleye

razgriz19 said:


> Have you ever seen a letter check on a commercial aircraft?
> they basically rebuild the whole airplane from ground up



Thats correct another example of all space shuttles and supply rockets starts building from ground to top to assess weight callibration



zeeshanvita said:


> If Pakistan go for new F16block 52...it will take min another 3 years to get delivered...



i think it will take 3 decades thats how US handle our deals, unfortunately

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## fatman17

Pakistan Air Force Dassault Mirage





Date: April 16, 2015
Nationality: Pakistan Air Force
Type: Dassault Mirage
Serial No.: 

Following a technical malfunction during a routine operational training sortie the aircraft crashed after the pilot had ejected safely. The Mirage came down near the Sonmiani Spaceport in the Lasbela district of the south-western province of Balochistan. The aircraft was destroyed. The PAF uses a live firing range at Sonmiani for weapons exercises.

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## fatman17

Escorting the Chinese President's aircraft

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## fatman17

Airforce marching past

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## IrbiS

Looking forward to the upcoming interview of ACM


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## fatman17

What a bird hit can do

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## ACE OF THE AIR

fatman17 said:


> What a bird hit can do


This is what bird hit can do


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## razgriz19

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> This is what bird hit can do
> 
> View attachment 220048



No, that was a flock of birds, not a bird hit.


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## fatman17

PAF aircraft to pilot ratio : 1 : 2.5 
IAF aircraft to pilot ratio : 1 : 1.25 
IAF having recruitment issues

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## ACE OF THE AIR

razgriz19 said:


> No, that was a flock of birds, not a bird hit.


2 bird hits = 1 bird for each engine.

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## fatman17

Chinese STOVL


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## JamD

fatman17 said:


> Chinese STOVL



No. That is the Russian Yak-141

Yakovlev Yak-141 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## fatman17

JamD said:


> No. That is the Russian Yak-141
> 
> Yakovlev Yak-141 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Ok the nosint website is wrong then


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## fatman17

PAF delivers Philippines ambassadors coffin

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## nomi007

*TODAY IN HISTORY*
PHOTO RECONNAISSANCE OVER THE SIACHEN GLACIER
1120 HOURS, 14 MAY 1989

Turning past the 26,600-foot Nanga Parbat, two Photo Reconnaissance Mirage-IIIRPs head for the highest battle zone of the world, the Siachen glacier. Providing combat escort, a pair of watchful F-16s follow, while the operational crew in the DA-20 (foreground) ensure that the four fighters receive all the electronic support they need.




DA-20:
Wing Commander Masood Akhtar Pilot
Squadron Leader Aftab Iqbal Co-Pilot
Squadron Leader Ayaz-ul-Haque Controller
Squadron Leader Pervez A Khan Controller
Flight Lieutenant M Nawaz Electronics

Mirage-IIIRPs:
Flight Lieutenant Asad Lodhi
Flight Lieutenant Nasir Kamran

F-16s:
Wing Commander Shahzad Chaudhry
Squadron Leader Gul Abbas Mela

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## IrbiS

*A fighter pilot's love for photography: Shooting in the sky*
By Tahir Khan
Published: May 17, 2015





The Chinese president’s plane is accompanied by PAF JF-17 Thunders as it enters Pakistani airspace. PHOTO: HAMID FARAZ

*The Chinese president’s visit to Pakistan last month set the tone: for ‘all-weather’ friends, the sky is the limit. It was, therefore, befitting for President Xi Jinping’s aircraft to be escorted by eight PAF JF-17 Thunders as it entered Pakistani airspace on April 20. And the man behind the iconic photograph shifts focus to tell The Express Tribuneabout his profession and passion.*

“I am a fighter pilot by profession, but aviation photography is my passion,” says Air Commodore Hamid Faraz, days after he captured the shot of the Chinese head of state’s plane being escorted by fighter jets. Capturing a moment while both the photographer and subject are airborne is no walk in the park, but for Faraz, 50, it is a walk in the clouds. “It was a huge responsibility but the air force trusted me with the job and I prepared extensively. I have done aviation photography earlier. It was the experience that give me the confidence to do this well,” he adds.






Though a fighter pilot by profession, Faraz says his passion is photography. PHOTO COURTESY: HAMID FARAZ

Taking a photo of another plane from a fighter jet is extremely difficult. “The photographer has to keep in mind a number of things when he is sitting in the cockpit. If the angle is not right, the reflection of the cockpit will spoil the photo,” explains Faraz, adding that it was a major challenge and an important occasion. The pilot flying the jet carrying the photographer was also briefed in advance. During the flight, Faraz further guided the pilot to ensure that both of them were on the same page. Being a fighter pilot himself, Faraz is more comfortable compared to many other airborne photographers. But the planning was nevertheless meticulous, he says. “You have to assess the sun’s position, how you will capture the image of the plane and how much distance you will maintain to take a good photograph.”

Faraz has captured several airborne photographs, but this was the first time he took pictures of a Head of State’s plane. For this particular assignment, Faraz took over 100 photographs and also shot a video. “You come to know about the results only once you download the pictures to a computer.” And the results were satisfactory, shares Faraz. “My photographs could be compared with the world’s best photographers,” he says with pride. “The backdrop and lighting were as I had imagined them to be before embarking on the mission.” He eventually settled for a picture with an excellent view of the blue sky and a complete undercast of white clouds, with the aircraft close to the horizon, he shares.






Air Commodore Hamid Faraz.

The photograph is symbolic because the JF-17 programme is a joint venture between Pakistan and China, stated to be the flagship of friendly relations between the two states. The JF-17 is jointly designed and produced at Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, Kamra, offering a unique opportunity for strategic engagement between the aviation industries of both countries.

Additionally, the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has a tradition of welcoming visiting heads of states/governments of friendly countries, says PAF Director Media Air Commodore Syed Muhammad Ali. PAF’s incumbent Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman, also had the honour of leading such a formation during his illustrious career, shares the PAF spokesperson. As a wing commander, Aman led a formation of F-16 aircraft escorting the visiting Chinese president Jiang Zemin in December 1996.

*Tahir Khan is an Islamabad-based reporter for The Express Tribune.*

*He tweets @taahir_khan*

_Published in The Express Tribune, Sunday Magazine, May 17th, 2015_

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## Windjammer

*PAF SPOKESPERSON*
Shared privately - 5:53 AM


AIR CHIEF VISITS A FORWARD OPERATING BASE
ISLAMABAD: 15 MAY, 2015: Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force visited a Forward Operating Base of
Pakistan Air Force in the Northern Areas. On his arrival, he was received by
Air Vice Marshal Shahid Akhtar Alvi, Air Officer Commanding, Northern Air Command.
The Air Chief visited the Base and observed the operational readiness of PAF personnel. While interacting with the PAF personnel, he appreciated their level of motivation and dedication to duty. He also highlighted the importance of comradeship among the personnel and reiterated that wonders could be achieved with sincere efforts and teamwork.

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## fatman17

Windjammer said:


> *PAF SPOKESPERSON*
> Shared privately - 5:53 AM
> 
> 
> AIR CHIEF VISITS A FORWARD OPERATING BASE
> ISLAMABAD: 15 MAY, 2015: Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force visited a Forward Operating Base of
> Pakistan Air Force in the Northern Areas. On his arrival, he was received by
> Air Vice Marshal Shahid Akhtar Alvi, Air Officer Commanding, Northern Air Command.
> The Air Chief visited the Base and observed the operational readiness of PAF personnel. While interacting with the PAF personnel, he appreciated their level of motivation and dedication to duty. He also highlighted the importance of comradeship among the personnel and reiterated that wonders could be achieved with sincere efforts and teamwork.



Wow hardened shelters


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## Donatello

IrbiS said:


> *A fighter pilot's love for photography: Shooting in the sky*
> By Tahir Khan
> Published: May 17, 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Chinese president’s plane is accompanied by PAF JF-17 Thunders as it enters Pakistani airspace. PHOTO: HAMID FARAZ
> 
> *The Chinese president’s visit to Pakistan last month set the tone: for ‘all-weather’ friends, the sky is the limit. It was, therefore, befitting for President Xi Jinping’s aircraft to be escorted by eight PAF JF-17 Thunders as it entered Pakistani airspace on April 20. And the man behind the iconic photograph shifts focus to tell The Express Tribuneabout his profession and passion.*
> 
> “I am a fighter pilot by profession, but aviation photography is my passion,” says Air Commodore Hamid Faraz, days after he captured the shot of the Chinese head of state’s plane being escorted by fighter jets. Capturing a moment while both the photographer and subject are airborne is no walk in the park, but for Faraz, 50, it is a walk in the clouds. “It was a huge responsibility but the air force trusted me with the job and I prepared extensively. I have done aviation photography earlier. It was the experience that give me the confidence to do this well,” he adds.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Though a fighter pilot by profession, Faraz says his passion is photography. PHOTO COURTESY: HAMID FARAZ
> 
> Taking a photo of another plane from a fighter jet is extremely difficult. “The photographer has to keep in mind a number of things when he is sitting in the cockpit. If the angle is not right, the reflection of the cockpit will spoil the photo,” explains Faraz, adding that it was a major challenge and an important occasion. The pilot flying the jet carrying the photographer was also briefed in advance. During the flight, Faraz further guided the pilot to ensure that both of them were on the same page. Being a fighter pilot himself, Faraz is more comfortable compared to many other airborne photographers. But the planning was nevertheless meticulous, he says. “You have to assess the sun’s position, how you will capture the image of the plane and how much distance you will maintain to take a good photograph.”
> 
> Faraz has captured several airborne photographs, but this was the first time he took pictures of a Head of State’s plane. For this particular assignment, Faraz took over 100 photographs and also shot a video. “You come to know about the results only once you download the pictures to a computer.” And the results were satisfactory, shares Faraz. “My photographs could be compared with the world’s best photographers,” he says with pride. “The backdrop and lighting were as I had imagined them to be before embarking on the mission.” He eventually settled for a picture with an excellent view of the blue sky and a complete undercast of white clouds, with the aircraft close to the horizon, he shares.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Air Commodore Hamid Faraz.
> 
> The photograph is symbolic because the JF-17 programme is a joint venture between Pakistan and China, stated to be the flagship of friendly relations between the two states. The JF-17 is jointly designed and produced at Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, Kamra, offering a unique opportunity for strategic engagement between the aviation industries of both countries.
> 
> Additionally, the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has a tradition of welcoming visiting heads of states/governments of friendly countries, says PAF Director Media Air Commodore Syed Muhammad Ali. PAF’s incumbent Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman, also had the honour of leading such a formation during his illustrious career, shares the PAF spokesperson. As a wing commander, Aman led a formation of F-16 aircraft escorting the visiting Chinese president Jiang Zemin in December 1996.
> 
> *Tahir Khan is an Islamabad-based reporter for The Express Tribune.*
> 
> *He tweets @taahir_khan*
> 
> _Published in The Express Tribune, Sunday Magazine, May 17th, 2015_



Did a very good job!

@Horus can this be shared on the FB page?

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## IrbiS

Donatello said:


> Did a very good job!
> 
> @Horus can this be shared on the FB page?



Mr. Faraz should share more of his work with fans

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## Windjammer

Donatello said:


> Did a very good job!
> 
> @Horus can this be shared on the FB page?





IrbiS said:


> Mr. Faraz should share more of his work with fans



This classic shot i posted elsewhere, is also the work of A/C Hamid Faraz, he has captured some real beauties specially one of a Block-52 going ballistic with a heavy load.

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## IrbiS

Windjammer said:


> This classic shot i posted elsewhere, is also the work of A/C Hamid Faraz, he has captured some real beauties specially one of a Block-52 going ballistic with a heavy load.



Keep 'em coming in the future whenever possible


----------



## GHOST RIDER

Windjammer said:


> *PAF SPOKESPERSON*
> Shared privately - 5:53 AM
> 
> 
> AIR CHIEF VISITS A FORWARD OPERATING BASE
> ISLAMABAD: 15 MAY, 2015: Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force visited a Forward Operating Base of
> Pakistan Air Force in the Northern Areas. On his arrival, he was received by
> Air Vice Marshal Shahid Akhtar Alvi, Air Officer Commanding, Northern Air Command.
> The Air Chief visited the Base and observed the operational readiness of PAF personnel. While interacting with the PAF personnel, he appreciated their level of motivation and dedication to duty. He also highlighted the importance of comradeship among the personnel and reiterated that wonders could be achieved with sincere efforts and teamwork.



Why is the guy on the extreme right wearing an orange flight suit ?


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## Kompromat

GHOST RIDER said:


> Why is the guy on the extreme right wearing an orange flight suit ?



I think, he is from Pakistan Navy.


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## Donatello

Windjammer said:


> This classic shot i posted elsewhere, is also the work of A/C Hamid Faraz, he has captured some real beauties specially one of a Block-52 going ballistic with a heavy load.



Windy,

Tell him about PDF and ask him to share his shoots here....or maybe someone else can do it for him? I am sure he has some interesting photos lying around.

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## fatman17

Windjammer said:


> *PAF SPOKESPERSON*
> Shared privately - 5:53 AM
> 
> 
> AIR CHIEF VISITS A FORWARD OPERATING BASE
> ISLAMABAD: 15 MAY, 2015: Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force visited a Forward Operating Base of
> Pakistan Air Force in the Northern Areas. On his arrival, he was received by
> Air Vice Marshal Shahid Akhtar Alvi, Air Officer Commanding, Northern Air Command.
> The Air Chief visited the Base and observed the operational readiness of PAF personnel. While interacting with the PAF personnel, he appreciated their level of motivation and dedication to duty. He also highlighted the importance of comradeship among the personnel and reiterated that wonders could be achieved with sincere efforts and teamwork.



Skardu


----------



## TaimiKhan

Horus said:


> I think, he is from Pakistan Navy.



Nops, its wore by AF or Navy both and its done around the world. Just for visibility issues. Orange being a bright color, is more easily visible, especially from air. In case a pilot is down, orange color will be clearly visible from the air.

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## nomi007



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## Donatello

nomi007 said:


> View attachment 223202



Any idea where one can find the real such patches of PAF? I want for my collection.

@Oscar @Windjammer @fatman17


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## Windjammer

Donatello said:


> Any idea where one can find the real such patches of PAF? I want for my collection.
> 
> @Oscar @Windjammer @fatman17


There use to be a shop called Army & Navy Store located in Sadar, Rawalpindi, specialising in this kind of material. 
However the source of the image, PAFFALCONS.COM is your call.


----------



## GHOST RIDER

TaimiKhan said:


> Nops, its wore by AF or Navy both and its done around the world. Just for visibility issues. Orange being a bright color, is more easily visible, especially from air. In case a pilot is down, orange color will be clearly visible from the air.



Why don't we see every pilot wearing orange then ?
Or is it a matter of personal preference ?


----------



## GHOST RIDER

Donatello said:


> Any idea where one can find the real such patches of PAF? I want for my collection.
> 
> @Oscar @Windjammer @fatman17



Check ebay too


----------



## IrbiS

@Windjammer @fatman17 have you read Air Chief's fresh interview in AFM by Alan warnes yet?

Main things Air Chief said are :

1 - *Air Chief CONFIRMED that Block III will have AESA and expanded arsenal.*

2 - *Sniper pod with GBU-10/12 is standard fit on F-16 for Strikes.*

3 - *Db-110, C-130s with Star Safire EO/IR turrets and all other ISR assets are being utilized.*

4 - *Now pilots with around 250 hours on Mirage / F-7s are converting to F-16 and then JF-17.

 https://twitter.com/i/web/status/586157545229656064*
5 - *Three JF-17s will go to Paris Air Show 1 for static and 1 for aerial display while 3rd as backup.*

6 - *LIFTs ( Lead-in Fighter Trainer ) Air Chief said like T-50 and L-15 are costly and unaffordable so training is being modified until we get dual seat JF-17s which is set to make maiden flight in 2016 ( In China )

*
Pics from Air Cdr. Faraz
*









*
@Donatello @HRK @Imran Khan @syedali73 @nomi007 @chauvunist @Horus @MastanKhan @Indus Falcon @DESERT FIGHTER @Manticore @araz @Sulman Badshah @Sage @Zarvan @ACE OF THE AIR @Abu Zolfiqar @Aether @S.U.R.B. @Irfan Baloch and others ................



EDIT : Just saw that @TheOccupiedKashmir has posted the whole article :
https://defence.pk/threads/exclusiv...-force-chief-paf’s-cutting-edge-grows.376696/

Reactions: Positive Rating Positive Rating:
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## ACE OF THE AIR

IrbiS said:


> 1 - *Air Chief CONFIRMED that Block III will have AESA and expanded arsenal.*


This would indicate that J-10 is out. F-16's would be upgraded with Aesa radar too when ever USA permits.



IrbiS said:


> 4 - *Now pilots with around 250 hours on Mirage / F-7s are converting to F-16 and then JF-17.*


Still this does not solve the long term issue of training aircraft requirement. 



IrbiS said:


> 6 - *LIFTs ( Lead-in Fighter Trainer ) Air Chief said like T-50 and L-15 are costly and unaffordable so training is being modified until we get dual seat JF-17s which is set to make maiden flight in 2016 ( In China )*


L-15's and T-50 are out. PAF has finally corrected their mistake... @MastanKhan your long time wish has been fulfilled


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## IrbiS

*JF-17 with C.C.S marking on vertical Stabilizer



*


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## nomi007

IrbiS said:


> @Windjammer @fatman17 have you read Air Chief's fresh interview in AFM by Alan warnes yet?
> 
> Main things Air Chief said are :
> 
> 1 - *Air Chief CONFIRMED that Block III will have AESA and expanded arsenal.*
> 
> 2 - *Sniper pod with GBU-10/12 is standard fit on F-16 for Strikes.*
> 
> 3 - *Db-110, C-130s with Star Safire EO/IR turrets and all other ISR assets are being utilized.*
> 
> 4 - *Now pilots with around 250 hours on Mirage / F-7s are converting to F-16 and then JF-17.
> 
> https://twitter.com/i/web/status/586157545229656064*
> 5 - *Three JF-17s will go to Paris Air Show 1 for static and 1 for aerial display while 3rd as backup.*
> 
> 6 - *LIFTs ( Lead-in Fighter Trainer ) Air Chief said like T-50 and L-15 are costly and unaffordable so training is being modified until we get dual seat JF-17s which is set to make maiden flight in 2016 ( In China )
> 
> *
> Pics from Air Cdr. Faraz
> *
> View attachment 223463
> View attachment 223462
> 
> 
> 
> *
> @Donatello @HRK @Imran Khan @syedali73 @nomi007 @chauvunist @Horus @MastanKhan @Indus Falcon @DESERT FIGHTER @Manticore @araz @Sulman Badshah @Sage @Zarvan @ACE OF THE AIR @Abu Zolfiqar @Aether @S.U.R.B. @Irfan Baloch and others ................
> 
> 
> 
> EDIT : Just saw that @TheOccupiedKashmir has posted the whole article :
> https://defence.pk/threads/exclusiv...-force-chief-paf’s-cutting-edge-grows.376696/


*dual seat JF-17 + western avionics with ej-200 engine base jf-17 for customers like saudia and middle eastern countries is highly important 
but still our jf-17 lacks HMD which is really disappointed *


----------



## IrbiS

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Still this does not solve the long term issue of training aircraft requirement.



How?



nomi007 said:


> *but still our jf-17 lacks HMD which is really disappointed *



Looks like on block 3 InshaALLAH

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## nomi007

IrbiS said:


> How?
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like on block 3 InshaALLAH


har cheez lagle pe dal do
waise bk-3 be kiu itna state of the art nai hoga
reason fund issue


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## IrbiS

nomi007 said:


> har cheez lagle pe dal do
> waise bk-3 be kiu itna state of the art nai hoga
> reason fund issue

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## ACE OF THE AIR

IrbiS said:


> How?



To solve the issue of training a duel seat aircraft is far better. As that gives the actual feel which is not possible on any other platform (SIM and other type of aircraft)


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## IrbiS

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> To solve the issue of training a duel seat aircraft is far better. As that gives the actual feel which is not possible on any other platform (SIM and other type of aircraft)



That's where dual seater TF-17 comes in

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## araz

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> To solve the issue of training a duel seat aircraft is far better. As that gives the actual feel which is not possible on any other platform (SIM and other type of aircraft)


Why the hell did they not build it right from the gitgo. It annoys me that one the one hand you are saying that we do not need a twin seater because of Sims and the the ACM comes out with a statement which is akin to an about turn. Leaves one with a feeling that there is no continuity of thought pattern.
Araz

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## ACE OF THE AIR

araz said:


> Why the hell did they not build it right fr9m the gitgo. It annoys me that one the one hand you are saying that we do not need a twin seater because of Sims and the the ACM comes out with a statement which is akin to an about turn. Leaves one with a feeling that there is no continuity of thought pattern.
> Araz


What was the factors involved in not doing this can not be known till PAF discloses them. On PDF the most common defence in this regard has been limitation of funds.


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## fatman17

araz said:


> Why the hell did they not build it right fr9m the gitgo. It annoys me that one the one hand you are saying that we do not need a twin seater because of Sims and the the ACM comes out with a statement which is akin to an about turn. Leaves one with a feeling that there is no continuity of thought pattern.
> Araz



Twin seater is the requirement mainly of potential JFT customers who are mainly 3rd world airforces . It would be a good to have for the PAF.

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## araz

fatman17 said:


> Twin seater is the requirement mainly of potential JFT customers who are mainly 3rd world airforces . It would be a good to have for the PAF.


Sir Fatman.
What Iam commenting on is the way the ACM has now made it look like a necessity now when previously they hav3 repeatedly said that it is not needed. If the need is for foreign vendors then that should have been the message brought forward rather than the feeling that PAF administration is making a 360 about turn on their earlier decision.
Araz

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## IrbiS

araz said:


> Sir Fatman.
> What Iam commenting on is the way the ACM has now made it look like a necessity now when previously they hav3 repeatedly said that it is not needed. If the need is for foreign vendors then that should have been the message brought forward rather than the feeling that PAF administration is making a 360 about turn on their earlier decision.
> Araz




*Mirages and F-7s aren't gonna be around forever and the agressive step of ACM to lessen the hours required to shift to F-16 ( JFT comes later cause F-16 got a trainer ) have made LIFT utmost necessity. Yet PAF chose economical option of TF-17 ( my designation, until official ) over dedicated LIFT platform, thus accelerating it's development which will help with exports too. As it was one of the handicaps preventing exports because as fatman17 said most potential JFT operators would be smaller Air arms with less resources and training hence can't adapt PAF's approach.*


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## ACE OF THE AIR

IrbiS said:


> TF-17 ( my designation, until official )



The Official Designation is JF-17B. 
Or are there looking for some other?

If we consider the requirement of LIFT then why not increase the numbers of JF-17B's or TF-17 then go after L-15 or T-50. The L-15 and T-50 cost almost similar to a fighter aircraft and are expensive to operate.



fatman17 said:


> 3rd world airforces



Has Pakistan gone to a higher category 2nd world or 1st word?


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## IrbiS

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> The Official Designation is JF-17B.
> Or are there looking for some other?
> 
> If we consider the requirement of LIFT then why not increase the numbers of JF-17B's or TF-17 then go after L-15 or T-50. The L-15 and T-50 cost almost similar to a fighter aircraft and are expensive to operate.




If you read again we've been saying and ACM too exactly


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## ACE OF THE AIR

IrbiS said:


> If you read again we've been saying and ACM too exactly


What are you trying to show me?


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## IrbiS

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> What are you trying to show me?



I said that we've been saying the same thing as you suggested maybe you missed the post.


Don't know what are u assuming


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## ACE OF THE AIR

IrbiS said:


> I said that we've been saying the same thing as you suggested maybe you missed the post.
> 
> 
> Don't know what are u assuming


May be i missed that post.


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## fatman17

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> The Official Designation is JF-17B.
> Or are there looking for some other?
> 
> If we consider the requirement of LIFT then why not increase the numbers of JF-17B's or TF-17 then go after L-15 or T-50. The L-15 and T-50 cost almost similar to a fighter aircraft and are expensive to operate.
> 
> 
> 
> Has Pakistan gone to a higher category 2nd world or 1st word?



PAF is superior to other 3rd world air arms.

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## fatman17

araz said:


> Sir Fatman.
> What Iam commenting on is the way the ACM has now made it look like a necessity now when previously they hav3 repeatedly said that it is not needed. If the need is for foreign vendors then that should have been the message brought forward rather than the feeling that PAF administration is making a 360 about turn on their earlier decision.
> Araz



There is no denying the advantages of having a two seat trainer over SIMS and can accelerate the training of pilots on to the JFT but SIMS are more cost effective.

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## MastanKhan

araz said:


> Sir Fatman.
> What Iam commenting on is the way the ACM has now made it look like a necessity now when previously they hav3 repeatedly said that it is not needed. If the need is for foreign vendors then that should have been the message brought forward rather than the feeling that PAF administration is making a 360 about turn on their earlier decision.
> Araz



Hi,

A new CEO---a new game plan---a new vision---.

The mindset of the previous 3 was strange---. Every aircraft the JF 17 was replacing had a 2 seater aircraft. Again this setback was uncalled for on part of the air force hierarchy----.



ACE OF THE AIR said:


> What was the factors involved in not doing this can not be known till PAF discloses them. On PDF the most common defence in this regard has been limitation of funds.




Hi,

The true limitations have been fcuk up by the air force marshalls.


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## araz

IrbiS said:


> *Mirages and F-7s aren't gonna be around forever and the agressive step of ACM to lessen the hours required to shift to F-16 ( JFT comes later cause F-16 got a trainer ) have made LIFT utmost necessity. Yet PAF chose economical option of TF-17 ( my designation, until official ) over dedicated LIFT platform, thus accelerating it's development which will help with exports too. As it was one of the handicaps preventing exports because as fatman17 said most potential JFT operators would be smaller Air arms with less resources and training hence can't adapt PAF's approach.*


Yaara
I have never denied the utility. I am just questioning the lack of vision on the part of PAF. The block obsolence of the fleet was apparent a long time ago and even PGs were a stop gap for lack of any other platform. The JFT was already signed for. So why did we not make a trainer/dual seat at the same time. This is what Iam trying to understand.
The previous ACMs statements were more a case of putting the best light to an adverse situation rather than actual fact. However it does bring to light the individuality of the decision making cycle rather than a well thought out and wetted group decision making. This is a bad thing as turn arounds and twists mid of a move are more wasteful and cost prohibitive.
Please understand that my question is more about understanding the decision making process than the actual decision. Ifully agree that it is a very prudent move. There maybe other factors which I dont want to discuss on the open forum. But let us leave those for the moment. One last factor which is a part of our national psyche is complacency. This is what this reeks of ."Oh chalo jee no problem sub kuch theek hai" should not be a part of the decision making cycle.
I hope I have clearified my statement and the reasons behind my earlier posts.
Araz

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## CHI RULES

PAF no doubt has good brains but they require urgency in decisions and how to move efficiently in worst conditions. They should at least go for up gradation of F16;s with AESA radars if J10b is not on cards in near future. Only relying on superior skills of Fighter Pilots is not a wise decision. U have example of Singapore a little country surrounded by strong neighbors yet no one can dare to challenge it due to superior Armed forces. By the way Indian may have got much info about capabilities of F16 from Singapore. So we should have contingency plan it is near to must that either we should immediately start production of upgraded Jf17s or should get few squadrons of J10b with AESA. Further should start immediate retirement of Mirages (you may say death coffins of PAF) to save precious lives of our brave pilots.

Non availability of think tanks and future strategy is a big flaw of our country in all fields.


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## araz

CHI RULES said:


> PAF no doubt has good brains but they require urgency in decisions and how to move efficiently in worst conditions. They should at least go for up gradation of F16;s with AESA radars if J10b is not on cards in near future. Only relying on superior skills of Fighter Pilots is not a wise decision. U have example of Singapore a little country surrounded by strong neighbors yet no one can dare to challenge it due to superior Armed forces. By the way Indian may have got much info about capabilities of F16 from Singapore. So we should have contingency plan it is near to must that either we should immediately start production of upgraded Jf17s or should get few squadrons of J10b with AESA. Further should start immediate retirement of Mirages (you may say death coffins of PAF) to save precious lives of our brave pilots.
> 
> Non availability of think tanks and future strategy is a big flaw of our country in all fields.


SubhanAllah! They have been upgraded just now with a PD Radar that will make the enemies shit their pants and you want them to upgrade to an AESA. The upgrade cost may well exceed million per pop x76 and may well and set the whole programme back by at least 3-5 yrs. So instead of having one established platform we will have none. There is no established example of block 15 with AESA which means Lockmart will charge you for the research and laugh all the way back to the bank . I can see a lot of the indianTop brass giving you a salute as well for this suggestion.
And by the by How do you propose we pay for this upgrade to AESA.
Little brother we need To keep our expectations realistic. F16s with AWACS will rock inspite of not having an AESA . We dont need fo fix that which is not broken. Believe me in the priority list PAF can do wonders wit the money that you are proposing to spend on AESA upgrade of F16s. I am sorry for the sarcasm above but it is to deter any such thoughts in future from another little brother.
Regards


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## volatile

I think for training dual seater is good one but dual seat also provides some special benfits like for bombing raid`s in hostile environment weapon`s officer can do his task where as pilot can do his .Also I agree with ACM and previous one if you take this as product what do you see .Consider product life cycle for thunder.

1.Stage 1 R&D which for any product is crucial which Al Humdulillah we have done and continue
2.Stage 2 Product Introduction .Which is done again with flying colour`s .
3.Stage 3 Product maturity which we are going through (I think it is 80%) done
4 Stage 4 Product maturity where proven techs are incorporated and smooth production start`s
5 Stage 5 Product life enhancing (MLU) incase of thunder Dual seater ,some structural mod.
6 Stage 6 Product decline or it needs to be replaced .

Here is reference diagram for this .As working in manufacturing sector for more than 10 years with hands on experience I am totally satisfied with development .Please stop comparing with F-16 as it is not (F-16 matures over 40 years) and even today developing .It is good professional know what they are doing .If this was not promising we wouldn't have gone that far as this is Pakistan we like to do criticize a lot without realizing ground realities .


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## araz

volatile said:


> I think for training dual seater is good one but dual seat also provides some special benfits like for bombing raid`s in hostile environment weapon`s officer can do his task where as pilot can do his .Also I agree with ACM and previous one if you take this as product what do you see .Consider product life cycle for thunder.
> 
> 1.Stage 1 R&D which for any product is crucial which Al Humdulillah we have done and continue
> 2.Stage 2 Product Introduction .Which is done again with flying colour`s .
> 3.Stage 3 Product maturity which we are going through (I think it is 80%) done
> 4 Stage 4 Product maturity where proven techs are incorporated and smooth production start`s
> 5 Stage 5 Product life enhancing (MLU) incase of thunder Dual seater ,some structural mod.
> 6 Stage 6 Product decline or it needs to be replaced .
> 
> Here is reference diagram for this .As working in manufacturing sector for more than 10 years with hands on experience I am totally satisfied with development .Please stop comparing with F-16 as it is not (F-16 matures over 40 years) and even today developing .It is good professional know what they are doing .If this was not promising we wouldn't have gone that far as this is Pakistan we like to do criticize a lot without realizing ground realities .


I dont think you have understood the jist of the discussion. The JFT programme as a whole has been a resounding success and no one in their right mind would deny that. The question is the utility of and the decision making regarding a dual seat variant. Also in question is the decision methodology of PAF with regards to the dual seater. I will be the first one to acknowledge the mistake in my assumption if someone can please clarify the questions raised. Your post pertains to the manufacturing of the JFT which has never been in doubt.
I hope this clarifies the questions raised.
Araz


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## Dil Pakistan

*I just found this on you tube. *

*I know major part of it is not real, but part is real.*

*It is tasty, juicy, sexy and works like an aphrodisiac - the music is spot on. WATCH till the end.*

*Enjoy:*






@Windjammer; @nomi007; @MastanKhan; @Imran Khan


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## fatman17

Risalpur flying training log

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## fatman17

No 14 Sq


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## nomi007

*The man who escorted C-130*
28 May Youm-E-Takbeer.

Wing Commander Haseeb Paracha, The man who escorted C-130s from Israeli threats when Pakistan was deploying its Nuclear devices in Chaghi and subsequently flew the missions to deter any interference from across the border. 
He was also the man behind Highmark 2005, one of the main goal was to fly 8000 sorties within two week period utilising all infrastructure including the Motorways.




*and he was ordered to shot down the C-130 in any unusual situation....and there was no radio contact of Pilots with ground*

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## fatman17

nomi007 said:


> *The man who escorted C-130*
> 28 May Youm-E-Takbeer.
> 
> Wing Commander Haseeb Paracha, The man who escorted C-130s from Israeli threats when Pakistan was deploying its Nuclear devices in Chaghi and subsequently flew the missions to deter any interference from across the border.
> He was also the man behind Highmark 2005, one of the main goal was to fly 8000 sorties within two week period utilising all infrastructure including the Motorways.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *and he was ordered to shot down the C-130 in any unusual situation....and there was no radio contact of Pilots with ground*




The airforce was fxing serious on and after may 28th. They had orders to shoot down anybody.


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## fatman17

Just a nice pic

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## nomi007

fatman17 said:


> The airforce was fxing serious on and after may 28th. They had orders to shoot down anybody.


we are not other islamic countries 
our intelligence & military standard is higher than even many western standard


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## truthseeker2010

nomi007 said:


> *The man who escorted C-130*
> 28 May Youm-E-Takbeer.
> 
> Wing Commander Haseeb Paracha, The man who escorted C-130s from Israeli threats when Pakistan was deploying its Nuclear devices in Chaghi and subsequently flew the missions to deter any interference from across the border.
> He was also the man behind Highmark 2005, one of the main goal was to fly 8000 sorties within two week period utilising all infrastructure including the Motorways.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *and he was ordered to shot down the C-130 in any unusual situation....and there was no radio contact of Pilots with ground*



@Windjammer Sir your comments on this........


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## Windjammer

truthseeker2010 said:


> @Windjammer Sir your comments on this........


My dear, that was actually disclosed by me elsewhere which has been copy pasted here.

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## truthseeker2010

Windjammer said:


> My dear, that was actually disclosed by me elsewhere which has been copy pasted here.



whats your take on it sir, as the mission were performed on war footing, since PAF was expecting visitors, did they turned up?

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## Windjammer

truthseeker2010 said:


> whats your take on it sir, as the mission were performed on war footing, since PAF was expecting visitors, did they turned up?


The warning was clearly conveyed by our foreign office, apart from PAF being put on full alert, reportedly ballistic missiles were also deployed with detonators in place. Apart from an attempted hijacking of a PIA airliner, no other incident materialised.

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## Umair Nawaz

Windjammer said:


> My dear, that was actually disclosed by me elsewhere which has been copy pasted here.


is he retired?


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## Windjammer

Umair Nawaz said:


> is he retired?



No, last i heard was that he may take in charge of Shahbaz air base. 



IrbiS said:


> Isn't this @Windjammer himself



Yaar, don't blow my cover. I have switched from JP-4 to Diesel.

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## Umair Nawaz

Windjammer said:


> No, last i heard was that he may take in charge of Shahbaz air base.
> 
> 
> 
> Yaar, don't blow my cover. I have switched from JP-4 to Diesel.


is there a chance of him to be promoted to AVMs or commodore rants?


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## IrbiS

Windjammer said:


> No, last i heard was that he may take in charge of Shahbaz air base.
> 
> 
> 
> Yaar, don't blow my cover. I have switched from JP-4 to Diesel.




Just don't turn into Maulana Diesel 

Delete the post you quoted me and it's gone


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## Indus Falcon

nomi007 said:


> *The man who escorted C-130*
> 28 May Youm-E-Takbeer.
> 
> Wing Commander Haseeb Paracha, The man who escorted C-130s from Israeli threats when Pakistan was deploying its Nuclear devices in Chaghi and subsequently flew the missions to deter any interference from across the border.
> He was also the man behind Highmark 2005, one of the main goal was to fly 8000 sorties within two week period utilising all infrastructure including the Motorways.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *and he was ordered to shot down the C-130 in any unusual situation....and there was no radio contact of Pilots with ground*[/QUOTE]



@Windjammer As per this article, PAF had already perfected using the Motorways as improvised runways in '98. Meaning that ever since the Motorway was opened in '97, PAF had been doing it .


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## CHI RULES

araz said:


> SubhanAllah! They have been upgraded just now with a PD Radar that will make the enemies shit their pants and you want them to upgrade to an AESA. The upgrade cost may well exceed million per pop x76 and may well and set the whole programme back by at least 3-5 yrs. So instead of having one established platform we will have none. There is no established example of block 15 with AESA which means Lockmart will charge you for the research and laugh all the way back to the bank . I can see a lot of the indianTop brass giving you a salute as well for this suggestion.
> And by the by How do you propose we pay for this upgrade to AESA.
> Little brother we need To keep our expectations realistic. F16s with AWACS will rock inspite of not having an AESA . We dont need fo fix that which is not broken. Believe me in the priority list PAF can do wonders wit the money that you are proposing to spend on AESA upgrade of F16s. I am sorry for the sarcasm above but it is to deter any such thoughts in future from another little brother.
> Regards



dear sir , I am not a tech guy like u but believe me that even Ist block 60 of UAE when produced first time was idea of someone which was realised. Atleast Pak Block50 F16s should be upgraded with AESA (as we have only 18). Further u are convinced or not if we take cost factor then we should not go Submarines dealand stop dreaming for 5th Gen fighters as even FC31 will cost atleast 60 to 70Million USD. Further even 4-4.5 gen fighters of India shall be upgraded with AESA radars. Like Taliban in Afghanistan we can;t do wonders with shear bravery. Our martyred soldiers on Angoor Ada were brave but don't had Air defense weapons so they were bombed by Americans. We should remember that if we can spend millions on Metro projects then we should also have money to upgarde our areial assets. Please enlighten me how our AWACS shall be effective in Indian territory even they shall be vulnerable to long range AAMS of India.

Just closing ur eyes and denying hard facts can't help us . Please enlighten me what sort of Jamming Pods/EW suits our Mirages and PGs have.
Further we may go for relatively cheaper radars like in the past we did in JV with Italian Grifo series Radars.
Dear Sir may be we have budget constraints but if any unfortunate event happens say in next two to three years before limited availability of 5th Gen fighter like J31 to Pak then what we will do.



araz said:


> SubhanAllah! They have been upgraded just now with a PD Radar that will make the enemies shit their pants and you want them to upgrade to an AESA. The upgrade cost may well exceed million per pop x76 and may well and set the whole programme back by at least 3-5 yrs. So instead of having one established platform we will have none. There is no established example of block 15 with AESA which means Lockmart will charge you for the research and laugh all the way back to the bank . I can see a lot of the indianTop brass giving you a salute as well for this suggestion.
> And by the by How do you propose we pay for this upgrade to AESA.
> Little brother we need To keep our expectations realistic. F16s with AWACS will rock inspite of not having an AESA . We dont need fo fix that which is not broken. Believe me in the priority list PAF can do wonders wit the money that you are proposing to spend on AESA upgrade of F16s. I am sorry for the sarcasm above but it is to deter any such thoughts in future from another little brother.
> Regards



dear sir , I am not a tech guy like u but believe me that even Ist block 60 of UAE when produced first time was idea of someone which was realised. Atleast Pak Block50 F16s should be upgraded with AESA (as we have only 18). Further u are convinced or not if we take cost factor then we should not go Submarines dealand stop dreaming for 5th Gen fighters as even FC31 will cost atleast 60 to 70Million USD. Further even 4-4.5 gen fighters of India shall be upgraded with AESA radars. Like Taliban in Afghanistan we can;t do wonders with shear bravery. Our martyred soldiers on Angoor Ada were brave but don't had Air defense weapons so they were bombed by Americans. We should remember that if we can spend millions on Metro projects then we should also have money to upgarde our areial assets. Please enlighten me how our AWACS shall be effective in Indian territory even they shall be vulnerable to long range AAMS of India.

Just closing ur eyes and denying hard facts can't help us . Please enlighten me what sort of Jamming Pods/EW suits our Mirages and PGs have.
Further we may go for relatively cheaper radars like in the past we did in JV with Italian Grifo series Radars.
Dear Sir may be we have budget constraints but if any unfortunate event happens say in next two to three years before limited availability of 5th Gen fighter like J31 to Pak then what we will do. 
Look at Indian areail assets then reply please how unrealistic I am further I shall say that Pak should immediately acquire High altitude SAMs along with Passive Radars with Stealth detection capabilities.


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## fatman17

JFT AD role


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## araz

CHI RULES said:


> dear sir , I am not a tech guy like u but believe me that even Ist block 60 of UAE when produced first time was idea of someone which was realised. Atleast Pak Block50 F16s should be upgraded with AESA (as we have only 18). Further u are convinced or not if we take cost factor then we should not go Submarines dealand stop dreaming for 5th Gen fighters as even FC31 will cost atleast 60 to 70Million USD. Further even 4-4.5 gen fighters of India shall be upgraded with AESA radars. Like Taliban in Afghanistan we can;t do wonders with shear bravery. Our martyred soldiers on Angoor Ada were brave but don't had Air defense weapons so they were bombed by Americans. We should remember that if we can spend millions on Metro projects then we should also have money to upgarde our areial assets. Please enlighten me how our AWACS shall be effective in Indian territory even they shall be vulnerable to long range AAMS of India.
> 
> Just closing ur eyes and denying hard facts can't help us . Please enlighten me what sort of Jamming Pods/EW suits our Mirages and PGs have.
> Further we may go for relatively cheaper radars like in the past we did in JV with Italian Grifo series Radars.
> Dear Sir may be we have budget constraints but if any unfortunate event happens say in next two to three years before limited availability of 5th Gen fighter like J31 to Pak then what we will do.
> 
> 
> 
> dear sir , I am not a tech guy like u but believe me that even Ist block 60 of UAE when produced first time was idea of someone which was realised. Atleast Pak Block50 F16s should be upgraded with AESA (as we have only 18). Further u are convinced or not if we take cost factor then we should not go Submarines dealand stop dreaming for 5th Gen fighters as even FC31 will cost atleast 60 to 70Million USD. Further even 4-4.5 gen fighters of India shall be upgraded with AESA radars. Like Taliban in Afghanistan we can;t do wonders with shear bravery. Our martyred soldiers on Angoor Ada were brave but don't had Air defense weapons so they were bombed by Americans. We should remember that if we can spend millions on Metro projects then we should also have money to upgarde our areial assets. Please enlighten me how our AWACS shall be effective in Indian territory even they shall be vulnerable to long range AAMS of India.
> 
> Just closing ur eyes and denying hard facts can't help us . Please enlighten me what sort of Jamming Pods/EW suits our Mirages and PGs have.
> Further we may go for relatively cheaper radars like in the past we did in JV with Italian Grifo series Radars.
> Dear Sir may be we have budget constraints but if any unfortunate event happens say in next two to three years before limited availability of 5th Gen fighter like J31 to Pak then what we will do.
> Look at Indian areail assets then reply please how unrealistic I am further I shall say that Pak should immediately acquire High altitude SAMs along with Passive Radars with Stealth detection capabilities.


In short my friend PAF is happy with the performance of APG ?68V9 which is one of the best radars in the region. There is no money in the kitty for AESA radar as I explained. As a matter of fact PAF will consider AESA upgrade at the time of MLU if US allows it to do so. JFT is our own product and we have much more lee way with what we do with it. It seems a much more prudent and cost effective decision to upgrade our JFTs to AESA for the fact that research into it will not cost us an arm and a leg. J31/similar 5th gen. Plane will be inducted irrespective of its price due to the capabilities that it brings to the fore. These would be required to keep abreast with our enemies and their acquisition plans. Also consider that in 5 yrs time there might be more choices around for AESA from different vendors for our F16s and if the cost is right why not but for now we have to concentrate on replacing our obsolete fleet of aircrafts which is a huge task.
This is the problem facing PAF at the moment. We are no oil rich sheikhdom we are a poor country with a lot of needs which need to be fulfilled as well.
Lastly you need to understand the complexities of end user agreements and thexdisadvantage it places on the. Buyers if they want to change the equipment. There are immense restrictions and you cant just make changes willy nilly. All changes need thorough teztkng and this is cost prohibitive. There is a reason why PAF wants to wait till 2018-19 and for block 3 to introduce these changes. PAF people are not sitting idle but there are whole teams looking at all the advancements that are coming to the fore and looking at how to induct them. These changes need time and money both of which we are short on.
Araz
PS - Just to give you an idea the AESA integration on bl.60 cost the sheikhs of UAE 8 billion $. They do hold the rights to production but guess who gained the most from this research! !!!!''


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## hassan1



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## HRK

hassan1 said:


> View attachment 226124



any detail of the pic .....??


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## mingle

hassan1 said:


> View attachment 226124





HRK said:


> any detail of the pic .....??


pic is new inductions of fighter planes u can see in back ground r Hawakers Furey and PM is there for induction and he is Liaqat Ali khan shaheed in car

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## hassan1



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## hassan1



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## nomi007

Today In History - June 5, 1967

Flight Lieutenant Saiful Azam, PAF, destroys an Israeli Mystere in Jordan. The encounter took place over the Jordanian Air Base at Mafraq. The burning Mystere shown in the painting, fell just across the barbed wire fencing around the base. Another Mystere which was damaged by Azam in the same air combat was able to make it back into the Israeli territory.


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## fatman17

Are we reviewing the J 10 option again or just a visit


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## nomi007

hope we will not go for J-10


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## Donatello

fatman17 said:


> Are we reviewing the J 10 option again or just a visit



it is J-10A.....so no i hope not that version.


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## mingle

fatman17 said:


> Are we reviewing the J 10 option again or just a visit


Sir if we got Fc20 then I think no more F16 s but we need a new type reason is fc31 is about 10 yrs away and we need to replace old jets .cost of 18 new F16s we can get 36 FC 20 .


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## Kompromat

fatman17 said:


> Are we reviewing the J 10 option again or just a visit



Its the PLAAF demo squadron .


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## Zarvan

I think we will go for J-10 B


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## Dil Pakistan

Zarvan said:


> I think we will go for J-10 B



or may be ... *C ... !!!!*


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## SQ8

NO J-10s coming in. You go to a car factory, you get to see all their products.. doesn't mean you are buying all of them.

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## fatman17

Donatello said:


> it is J-10A.....so no i hope not that version.



The A model is 18 years old now. How time flies.


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## fatman17

Oscar said:


> NO J-10s coming in. You go to a car factory, you get to see all their products.. doesn't mean you are buying all of them.



Stranger things have happened.


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## fatman17

mingle said:


> Sir if we got Fc20 then I think no more F16 s but we need a new type reason is fc31 is about 10 yrs away and we need to replace old jets .cost of 18 new F16s we can get 36 FC 20 .



18 C/D's are far superior.

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## fatman17

fatman17 said:


> Stranger things have happened.



Sorry forgot to say janab.


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## Windjammer

*7th June 2002 : PAF F-16B 83-605 from No 9 Squadron shot down an Indian Air Force, Israeli made Searcher-II UAV, on a spying mission near Lahore. *

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## fatman17

CONTRIBUTING OP-ED WRITER

How High Can Pakistan’s Air Force Women Fly?

JUNE 8, 2015

Bina Shah

KARACHI, Pakistan — Flight Lt. Ayesha Farooq, Pakistan’s only combat-ready female air force pilot, has become both an international celebrity and a symbol of a new Pakistan, where women are breaking barriers and taking on roles traditionally closed to them. Yet Pakistan is also known as a country where women’s place in society yo-yos up and down. For example, in the 1990s it entrusted the leadership of the entire nation to Benazir Bhutto while still resisting girls’ education and advances in women’s rights.

Given this contradictory attitude, how far can Pakistan’s female air force officers expect to go?

That’s hard to answer. The air force has been more progressive than other branches of the military. At its inception, it modeled its service environment after the British Royal Air Force. In the late 1950s, while receiving an increasing amount of American equipment and mentorship, its chiefs turned more toward the ethos of the United States Air Force, and women began serving as air force doctors and nurses.

Then, in 1977, Group Capt. Shahida Perveen joined the force as a psychologist in a prominent role; she did psychological testing for the recruitment center, then helped establish an Institute of Air Safety to research how human error led to air accidents. She describes receiving “red carpet treatment” on joining the air force, and credits Zulfikar Ali Bhutto — the prime minister at the time, and Benazir Bhutto’s father — with opening doors for women who had ambitions beyond the medical units.

Still, women remained barred from other branches of the air force until 1995, when Ms. Bhutto, as prime minister, persuaded Air Chief Marshal Abbas Khattak to think about women joining branches of the air force beyond the medical branch, “now that women were being considered for everything — thanks to her influence,” says Riazuddin Shaikh, a retired air marshal who served under Air Chief Marshal Khattak.

Female cadets were then recruited into administrative and accounting departments. They became air traffic controllers, worked in law, logistics and education. They were trained for aeronautical engineering, avionics and information technology; they played huge roles in designing specialized avionics software and managing hardware at air force bases. Despite some reservations among male officers, Air Marshal Shaikh recalls no serious adverse reactions.


Nevertheless, a decision to allow women to become fighter pilots did not come until 2002, under Air Chief Marshal Mushaf Ali Mir. By then, women were serving as pilots in the American military, and that precedent influenced the decision. But it took the voices of the women themselves to persuade Air Chief Marshal Mir. “Every time the women met him, they demanded that they be allowed to become pilots,” Air Marshal Shaikh recalled. “And because their inclusion had been progressive, it actually happened quite smoothly.”

The induction of female pilots into the Pakistani Air Force began in 2005, with one of the first, Aviation Cadet Saira Amin, winning the coveted Air Force Academy Sword of Honor for best in class during training in 2006. Today, 21 women serve as pilots, and while Lieutenant Farooq is the only one in a fighter squadron, five more are undergoing training for that at the air force academy in Risalpur. Others serve in transport, helicopter, electronic and drone squadrons. In total, there are now 339 women officers in the air force, 196 of them in medical positions — a traditional route for women that still has broad appeal.

When Benazir Bhutto was first elected prime minister in 1988, some Pakistanis questioned whether it was religiously correct for a woman to head a Muslim country. In the end, the questioning died down, at least in part on the basis of Quranic verses referring to the Queen of Sheba. So far, nobody prominent has raised similar objections on religious grounds against women taking combat roles. Captain Perveen recalls facing small indignities in a heavily male environment. “We were expected to smile,” she says today. “Was that really our role as lady officers?” Still, the force remains free of reports of sexual assaults like those that have plagued the United States Air Force.

Meanwhile, the Pakistani Air Force offers no exception to the expectation that Pakistani women must fulfill their age-old roles of wife, homemaker and mother. This helps explain why so few female cadets continue on a path to combat roles. It also explains why many women marry colleagues, since military men can better understand and support their career paths.

Eight years ago, Lieutenant Farooq’s extended family saw her choice to join the air force as an aberration from a woman’s normal path, and they tried to dissuade her, she related in a recent lecture. But, she said, she took their criticism as a challenge that drove her harder to succeed. Today, she said, she is happily married to a fellow air force officer, and her once-skeptical relatives now ask how their own daughters can join the air force.

In the force, Lieutenant Farooq was trained like the men. When fuel fumes made her nauseated her first time up in a Mushshak propeller plane, her instructor simply passed her the controls and ordered her to fly. Only later, on her first solo flight, she related, did she really feel in control in the air, with the “entire world beneath my feet.”

These days, the Pakistani Air Force eagerly trumpets her rise as a symbol of its modernity. But Air Marshal Shaikh is realistic. “It will take time before a woman can ever become the head of a branch, or even the head of the air force,” he says — the implication being that we may never live to see it. Still, growing numbers of Pakistani women view an air force career as an option, not just to serve their country but to gain the ultimate feeling of control over their lives.

Correction: June 8, 2015

An earlier version of this article misidentified the type of airplane in which Flight Lt. Ayesha Farooq trained to be a pilot. It was a Mushshak, not a Mishaal.

Bina Shah is the author of several books of fiction, including, most recently, “A Season for Martyrs.”


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## fatman17

Speaking to crew of No 8 Sq Haiders at Masroor AFB


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## ACE OF THE AIR

fatman17 said:


> Speaking to crew of No 8 Sq Haiders at Masroor AFB


Mirages ??


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## fatman17

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Mirages ??



Affirmative


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## fatman17

The airforce budget is USD 1.8B. It has to manage itself within this figure. This doesn't include capital investment.


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## Quwa

fatman17 said:


> 18 C/D's are far superior.


Not if and when the sanctions hit. The U.S isn't a friend, nor is it a dependable country to have a relationship with in any sense of the word. This is a power that spies on its own allies (e.g. Germany)!. The moment American and Pakistani interests diverge (and that can happen very easily should Pakistanis ever gain true self-determination), the F-16s won't amount to much for very long. That said, the PAF shouldn't concern itself too much with the FC-20, it needs to start committing funds towards the J-31 and, if possible, a light single engine next-gen supplement.

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## aftab_s81

Mark Sien said:


> That said, the PAF shouldn't concern itself too much with the FC-20, it needs to start committing funds towards the J-31 and, if possible, a light single engine next-gen supplement.



Agree with the first part that instead of FC-20, FC-31 should be preferred. 

For single engine, I think JF-17 should be modernized, yes it will take considerable effort but much of the technology used in JFT could be re-used.


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## salman-1

Not inducting FC-20 is a big mistake, as it would have proved to be a supplement in case of any conflict. More the Aesa radar in it would have given PAF an edge over its adversary. 
Imagine PAF with another embargo, shortage of spares would kill PAF F-16 fleet for taking edge on IAF. Just a short fleet of FC-20 of 36 planes would enable our trained Pilots to have spare planes from china in case of any conflict. Even USA would not be able to pull our strings too much as it does occasionally. FC-20 would give many more advantages like Russian latest engine AL-31F and its technical know how. FC-20 or J-10B/C have been ranked equivalent or better in some extent to F-18/E by US state department, as its fully Fly by wire, AESA Radar , enable to carry all sorts of WMD and BVR's made in China and further development of newer weapons.
FC-31 no doubt would bring newer tech with it, but its a test tube baby at this moment. On Paper it looks good but still in the womb of Chinese industry waiting to mature to come to this world.


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## fatman17

What will be basis of future sanctions? 
We are now accepted as a nuclear power 
The clandestine nuclear network is closed probably forever. 
We're going after the haqqanis. 
We are not overtly supporting jihadists in Kashmir. That proxy war was stopped by Musharraf in 2001. 
China as a NSG member is helping us set up civilian nuclear power plants. 
Pakistan is cooperating with the US on the Afghan end game? 
The only issue left is Dr Afridi’s release. 
The level of military support from the US will certainly come down but as long as we buy US origin material with our own sovereign funds they will sell to us.


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## SipahSalar

FC-20 is not for export. How many times do i have to say this? Chinese will only export FC-20 if US starts exporting F-22.


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## salman-1

Sanctions doesn't need an excuse for USA. They can be implemented for for just a small conflict with India, even if India starts a war USA will stop any kind of material to be used in that war. A lame excuse of not fueling the war. What were the basis in 1971 or 1965 war's.? The war triggers the black market mafia which USA would prefer to sell as they did during Preseller amendment. Can't trust a proven un trust worthy friend. No lesson learned from the Dark Days. But still why we go for it, its because they got the best product for us in the market.


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## ACE OF THE AIR

salman-1 said:


> Not inducting FC-20 is a big mistake, as it would have proved to be a supplement in case of any conflict. More the Aesa radar in it would have given PAF an edge over its adversary.
> Imagine PAF with another embargo, shortage of spares would kill PAF F-16 fleet for taking edge on IAF. Just a short fleet of FC-20 of 36 planes would enable our trained Pilots to have spare planes from china in case of any conflict. Even USA would not be able to pull our strings too much as it does occasionally. FC-20 would give many more advantages like Russian latest engine AL-31F and its technical know how. FC-20 or J-10B/C have been ranked equivalent or better in some extent to F-18/E by US state department, as its fully Fly by wire, AESA Radar , enable to carry all sorts of WMD and BVR's made in China and further development of newer weapons.
> FC-31 no doubt would bring newer tech with it, but its a test tube baby at this moment. On Paper it looks good but still in the womb of Chinese industry waiting to mature to come to this world.



What happened in the past can not be salvaged. As already quoted by many PDF seniors and debated repeatedly PAF missed opportunities to induct M2k's and then FC-20/ J-10's.

PAF might have considered the possibility of sanctions on F-16's so would have purchased and build enough stores or could have signed agreements with others who operate these to supply them during the time when USA is not going to ship these directly. One has to realize USA is supplying all sorts of equipment and spares to Iran for those products bought before the revolution. The restriction is on future sales and deliveries but not on those that have already been delivered.

Today the issue that arises is are these FC-20/J-10's still going to last an other 20 years or not?


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## salman-1

Miss this Bird in PAF. Look what's the difference in technology for Pulse doppler and AESA Radar.


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## fatman17

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> What happened in the past can not be salvaged. As already quoted by many PDF seniors and debated repeatedly PAF missed opportunities to induct M2k's and then FC-20/ J-10's.
> 
> PAF might have considered the possibility of sanctions on F-16's so would have purchased and build enough stores or could have signed agreements with others who operate these to supply them during the time when USA is not going to ship these directly. One has to realize USA is supplying all sorts of equipment and spares to Iran for those products bought before the revolution. The restriction is on future sales and deliveries but not on those that have already been delivered.
> 
> Today the issue that arises is are these FC-20/J-10's still going to last an other 20 years or not?



The J10s are already 18 years old. If there is a transformational change in the aircraft then it's worth revisiting. The F16 platform has evolved from block 5 to block 60 and there is a vast difference in the block capabilities.


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## MastanKhan

SipahSalar said:


> FC-20 is not for export. How many times do i have to say this? Chinese will only export FC-20 if US starts exporting F-22.



Hi,

FC 20 is the export version of J10 for Pakistan.

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## Donatello

fatman17 said:


> Speaking to crew of No 8 Sq Haiders at Masroor AFB



Are these the ones expected to get the next JF-17 squadron?


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## ACE OF THE AIR

fatman17 said:


> The J10s are already 18 years old. If there is a transformational change in the aircraft then it's worth revisiting. The F16 platform has evolved from block 5 to block 60 and there is a vast difference in the block capabilities.


I don't think so...transformation would require it be made into a new aircraft...China is never going to do this...Transformations are only possible in Western Culture because they like to keep their history....

It would be a positive development if PAF decides to get a 5th gen fighter. The only option of India to sabotage this plan if 5th gen fighter is being considered is to force Pakistan into thinking a war is imminent. Making them to choose an aircraft which is readily available and force PAF to delay the procurement of 5th Gen. 

On a side note do have an idea of how many J-20 are already made so far?


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## araz

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> I don't think so...transformation would require it be made into a new aircraft...China is never going to do this...Transformations are only possible in Western Culture because they like to keep their history....
> 
> It would be a positive development if PAF decides to get a 5th gen fighter. The only option of India to sabotage this plan if 5th gen fighter is being considered is to force Pakistan into thinking a war is imminent. Making them to choose an aircraft which is readily available and force PAF to delay the procurement of 5th Gen.
> 
> On a side note do have an idea of how many J-20 are already made so far?


Because of the nuclear factor and the inherent mistrust between the two countries it would be very foolish to go down that route. There is no sense in a war where at the end of it nothing survives. So it is easy to sit back and call their bluff. They know as well as we do that the lower the prepredness the lower the threshold at which nuclear threshold is reached. It wont and cant be a case of one strike and wait for them to capitulate. It will have to be a massive series of crippling strikes from which nothing will survive. Unfortunately this is the horror that awaits the subcontinent if people are not careful.
Araz


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## ACE OF THE AIR

araz said:


> Because of the nuclear factor and the inherent mistrust between the two countries it would be very foolish to go down that route. There is no sense in a war where at the end of it nothing survives. So it is easy to sit back and call their bluff. They know as well as we do that the lower the prepredness the lower the threshold at which nuclear threshold is reached. It wont and cant be a case of one strike and wait for them to capitulate. It will have to be a massive series of crippling strikes from which nothing will survive. Unfortunately this is the horror that awaits the subcontinent if people are not careful.
> Araz


I go agree with you if this situation does flair and a full blown war begins then Nuclear weapons would come into play. 

For once let us consider Nuclear assets of both sides are not used. India has the advantage of a higher number of conventional force.
Pakistan Air Force is required to procure more assets from China then what could they be? 
If China fulfils there promise of protecting Pakistan by opening up a second front how would this factor?
If the report on the current stock pile of weapons that India posses are about 20 days for a one-sided war, what impact would this have if multiple fronts are opened?


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## Quwa

fatman17 said:


> What will be basis of future sanctions?
> We are now accepted as a nuclear power
> The clandestine nuclear network is closed probably forever.
> We're going after the haqqanis.
> We are not overtly supporting jihadists in Kashmir. That proxy war was stopped by Musharraf in 2001.
> China as a NSG member is helping us set up civilian nuclear power plants.
> Pakistan is cooperating with the US on the Afghan end game?
> The only issue left is Dr Afridi’s release.
> The level of military support from the US will certainly come down but as long as we buy US origin material with our own sovereign funds they will sell to us.


If Pakistan ever managed to stop having rulers like Zardari and Nawaz, the U.S will end its relationship with Islamabad. A credible Pakistani leadership would never tolerate U.S drone strikes, or a U.S invasion and occupation of "strategic depth", or an unfavourable end to Kashmir, or a big NO to IMF loans, etc. These are the kinds of policies that Pakistan needs in order to be a truly independent country, this directly conflicts with the kind of Pakistan the U.S loves, the kind ruled by corrupt rulers who saddle their people with debt from IMF loans.


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## fatman17

Donatello said:


> Are these the ones expected to get the next JF-17 squadron?



Yes bcuz they fly the oldest Mirages.


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## fatman17

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> I don't think so...transformation would require it be made into a new aircraft...China is never going to do this...Transformations are only possible in Western Culture because they like to keep their history....
> 
> It would be a positive development if PAF decides to get a 5th gen fighter. The only option of India to sabotage this plan if 5th gen fighter is  being considered is to force Pakistan into thinking a war is imminent. Making them to choose an aircraft which is readily available and force PAF to delay the procurement of 5th Gen.
> 
> On a side note do have an idea of how many J-20 are already made so far?



250++ with the PLAAF


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## Arsalan

SipahSalar said:


> FC-20 is not for export. How many times do i have to say this? Chinese will only export FC-20 if US starts exporting F-22.


you are mixing FC-20 with J-20.


This is the FC-20/J10B





A purposed export version of J-10B

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## ACE OF THE AIR

fatman17 said:


> 250++ with the PLAAF



This fig is of J-10's.


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## fatman17

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> This fig is of J-10's.



What else


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## Imran Khan

SipahSalar said:


> FC-20 is not for export. How many times do i have to say this? Chinese will only export FC-20 if US starts exporting F-22.


janab its breaking news for us then


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## fatman17

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> This fig is of J-10's.





The serial production of J-10 started in 2003 after 18 years of development. Up to 250 J-10s of different versions are in service with PLAAF and PLAN.


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## fatman17

Arsalan said:


> you are mixing FC-20 with J-20.
> 
> 
> This is the FC-20/J10B
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A purposed export version of J-10B




FC20 is a PAF designation for J10. Just like JF 17 and FC1


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## ACE OF THE AIR

fatman17 said:


> What else


I asked for J-20 in the post.


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## fatman17

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> I asked for J-20 in the post.



Ok my bad


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## fatman17

J-20 Mighty Dragon


The J-20 (K/JJ20?) [HASHTAG]#2001[/HASHTAG] technology demonstrator made its maiden flight on January 11, 2011 over the city of Chengdu, wearing a distinctive dark green color scheme and powered by two AL-31F turbofan engines. The prototype features a pair of all-moving tailfins and Russian 1.44 style twin ventral stabilizing fins and tail booms, which shield the engine nozzles and its heat exhausts but might increase RCS. Also there are four large underwing actuator fairings but their size was reduced on later prototypes. It also features an F-22 style forward fuselage, including adjustable Caret inlets but with DSI bumps installed at the upper inner corners, as well as a one-piece frameless canopy. Small LERX are installed between the canards and main wings in order to generate vortex together with the canards at high AoA. Two small dark diamond shaped windows can be seen on both sides of the nose, which could house a certain kind of EO sensors. Two more diamond shaped windows are seen underneath the rear fuselage, plus two more located forward and aft the cockpit, suggesting a distributed situational awareness system similar to the EODASonboard American F-35 could have been installed to provide a full 360° coverage. Besides a large belly weapon bay for medium/long-range AAMs (up to 4 PL-15, or 4 PL-21?), two smaller lateral weapon bayshave been identified behind the air inlets for short-range AAMs (1 PL-10 in each). The 2001 prototype appears to fly without an internal gun, which is expected to be installed onboard later ones. It also may be flying without the RAM coating applied but this may change later. First disclosed by US Office of Naval Intelligence (ONI) in 1997 as XXJ, J-20 (Project 718) is a 4th generation heavy air superiority fighter to enter the service with PLAAF between 2016 and 2018, a time frame much faster than the one (>2020) anticipated by the western military analysts. Since early 90s both CAC/611 Institute and SAC/601 Institute had been working their own designs to bid for a twin-engine heavy fighter with stealth capability and maneuverability comparable to American F-22. It was speculated that 601 Institute was working on a "tri-plane" design based on canard/conventional layout/V-shape tailfin while 611 Institute working on a design based oncanard/tailless delta wing/V-shape tailfin/lateral DSI/bump inlet layout. All designs would feature a belly internal weapon bay to reduce RCS, which has been speculated to be <0.05m2 (head-on). J-20 also incorporates an advanced FBL system fully integrated with the fire-control and the engine systems. The aircraft has a smooth surface without any protruding tubes or inlets, suggesting an FADS has been installed in order to reduce RCS. Its fire-control radar is expected to be AESA (Type 1475/KLJ5?) based on the less powerful model being tested onboard J-10B, both are developed by the 14th Institute. The radar is thought to be comparable to American APG-77. Both the radar and the CNI system are being tested onboard a modified Tu-204Ctestbed, similar to American Boeing 757 testbed for F-22. The next generation secure datalink is believed to be installed as well which provides secure networking with other J-20s and KJ-200/2000 AWACS. The aircraft also features a "pure" glass cockpit(three large color LCDs plus a few smaller ones and a wide-angle holographic HUD) and possibly an HMDS. J-20 has a retractable IFR probe hidden beneath a cover on the starboard side of the cockpit similar to the one onboard American F-35.Many of these subsystems have been tested onboard J-10B to speed up the development. The exact type of engine powering prototypes is unclear, even though a Chinese or Russian turbofan engine including AL-31F (AL-31F-M1? 13.5t class) and enhanced WS-10 (WS-10G?) (14t class) was speculated. In the end the Russian engine is believed to be the likely candidate (initially AL-31F-M1 later AL-31F-M2/14.5t class). The engine features a silver color "stealth" nozzle with saw tooth edges to reduce RCS and IR emission. However the nozzle has yet to demonstrate an axisymmetric TVC capability. It was reported in November 2006 that a 16-17t class T/W=9 turbofan (WS-15/"Large Thrust"/Emei?) with a TVC nozzle is being developed and will eventually power J-20s in production. J-20 appears slightly longer and slimmer than both F-22 and T-50, suggesting a compromise between achieving high speed/maneuverability and the less powerful engines available. Therefore currently the J-20 prototype still lacks the supercurise capability until the planned WS-15 turbofan enters the service. Russian assistance was also speculated in terms of software support for calculating the RCS and aerodynamics of various designs. The overall performance of J-20 is thought to be superior to that of Russian T-50 but still inferior to that of American F-22. In August 2008 it was reported that 611 Institute was selected to be the main contractor for the development of J-20 and 601 Institute as the sub-contractor. Subsequently a full-scale metal mockup was built at CAC. One rumor in May 2010 claimed that 611 Institute started to construct the first prototype, which was expected to fly by the end of 2010, even though the full configuration version won't fly until a few years later. Two aircraft were constructed and the first low-speed taxi trial by 2001 took place on November 4, 2010. The [HASHTAG]#2002[/HASHTAG] technology demonstrator made its maiden flight on May 16, 2012. Both [HASHTAG]#2001[/HASHTAG] and 2002 were sent to CFTE in Yanliang in 2012, where [HASHTAG]#2002[/HASHTAG] prototype was renumbered as 2004 and [HASHTAG]#2001[/HASHTAG] flew with a new gray RAM paint. The [HASHTAG]#2002[/HASHTAG] technology demonstrator was seen conducting weapon integration tests with a dummy PL-10 IIR guided short-range AAM on its retractable side missile launch rail in March 2013. Unlike that of F-22, the weapon bay door is closed while the missile is fully exposed to maintain low RCS and reduce drag during dogfight. In July 2013 it conducted similar tests carrying dummy PL-15 AAMs inside the belly weapon bay. The completion of building the third prototype was delayed until late 2013 due to the fact that the [HASHTAG]#2011[/HASHTAG] prototype would feature certain "major improvements" and is no longer considered as a "technology demonstrator". The first low-speed taxi test of [HASHTAG]#2011[/HASHTAG] prototype took place on January 16, 2014, high-speed taxi test on February 18, 2014. The aircraft was seen to have a nosed mounted EOTS and frame-strengthened one-piece canopy similar to those of American F-35 plus a new frameless holographic HUD. The emergence of EOTS suggests that J-20 could possess a limited AG capability using laser or TV guided PGMs. In addition it has numerous aerodynamic refinements including reshaped tailfins, extended tail booms, nose landing gear door, LERX and engine intakes with hexagonal side fuel-air exchangers as well as smaller underwing actuators to further reduce RCS. Two large tail booms appear to house additional ECM or rear-view radar antennas to protect the rear hemisphere of the aircraft. A new ECM antenna can be seen aft the air intake as well. The prototype also wears a new light blue/gray RAM coating. A new type of engine (AL-31F-M2?) was rumored to have been installed but this has yet to be confirmed. The [HASHTAG]#2011[/HASHTAG] prototype first took off into the sky on March 1, 2014. A new"stealth" nozzle was tested on one of the engines onboard [HASHTAG]#2011[/HASHTAG] in April 2014. The first low-speed taxi test of the [HASHTAG]#2012[/HASHTAG] prototype took place on July 14, 2014. The first flight of [HASHTAG]#2012[/HASHTAG] took place on July 26, 2014. The [HASHTAG]#2013[/HASHTAG] prototype took off for the first time on November 29, 2014, and the#2015 prototype on December 19, 2014. Both 2013 and 2015 have the pitot tube removed from the nose and both feature a further refined nose radome and tail booms, suggesting the AESA radar has been installed. They have been speculated to represent a nearly "frozen" technical configuration before the initial production. The relatively fast pace of two aircraft being rolled out within one month suggested that the J-20 program is moving towards the low-rate initial production (00 batch?) by 2016. Once entering the service,J-20 could pose a significant impact/challenge to the air power balance in eastern Asian and western Pacific region. It has prompted the neighboring countries including Japan and South Korea to pursue other 5th-generation stealth fighters such as F-35. Recent news (April 2015) suggested that both [HASHTAG]#2013[/HASHTAG] and [HASHTAG]#2015[/HASHTAG] prototypes were being transferred to CFTE for further testing, after that various weapon tests are expected to start at the PLAAF Test and Training Base. The latest rumor (May 2015) claimed that the [HASHTAG]#2016[/HASHTAG] prototype has been built and is preparing for its maiden flight.

- Last Updated 5/26/15


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## fatman17

Call sign Fahrenheit.


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## GHOST RIDER

fatman17 said:


> Call sign Fahrenheit.



Why don't we see all pilots with call signs on their Flight Helmets ?
Is it a matter of personal preference ?

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## fatman17

GHOST RIDER said:


> Why don't we see all pilots with call signs on their Flight Helmets ?
> Is it a matter of personal preference ?



Good Q


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## fatman17

Saffron bandit exercise


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## fatman17

PARIS: JF-17 wins first export order

By: GREG WALDRON

PARIS


The Chengdu/Pakistan Aeronautical Complex JF-17 Thunder fighter has secured its first confirmed export deal.

“A contract has been signed with an Asian country,” says Air Commodore Khalid Mahmood, the Pakistan air force officer who leads sales and marketing efforts for the type.

Citing client sensitivities, he declined to specify the customer and the number of aircraft it will obtain. Deliveries will start in 2017.

He says that sales for the JF-17, which is targeted for developing nations, have been held up by political turmoil in several Middle Eastern countries.

The aircraft is making its flying debut at this year’s air show. Pakistan’s air force has brought three examples this year. One will appear on the static display, one will appear in the flying display, and the third will serve as a backup.

The JF-17 contingent at Paris this year is 80 strong, representing a significant marketing push. Khalid says the show is a good venue for meeting prospective customers from French speaking countries.

He says that 11 countries are looking at the type, which mirrors previous comments made by Chinese defence export agency Catic, which also markets the aircraft, and Pakistan air force officials.

Khalid also provided an update of Pakistan’s induction of the type. So far, 54 examples have been delivered. The first 50 were originally delivered in a Block I configuration, and these are in the process of being updated to a Block II standard. The Block II configuration features improved avionics and better software, and adds a fixed air-to-air refuelling probe.

An additional 46 aircraft will be delivered in the Block II configuration. A subsequent 50 aircraft, which will push Pakistan’s fleet to 150 examples, will have a Block III configuration. These will all be delivered by the end of 2018.

The aircraft’s developers are still working out the specifications of the Block III aircraft, but upgrades could include an active electronically scanned array (AESA) or Passive electronically scanned array (PESA) radar, says Khalid. The configuration could also include an infrared search and track (IRST) sensor, stations under the forward fuselage for various pods, and expanded precision weapons capabilities.

A two-seat variant is also planned, which will serve mainly as a trainer. Pakistan produces 58% of the airframe and China 42%. The JF-17 is powered by a single Klimov RD-93 engine.

Myanmar is the likely customer and FC1 will be the aircraft.


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## fatman17

Order could be for 12 aircraft @ $ 15 mill per copy shared 50:50 between China and Pakistan.

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## salman-1

I don't think we would sale at $15/- Million per copy it's gonna be between 20-25 mill at least as only blk2 will be made now and it's price is max $25 mill per copy, plus the basic training general, maintenance work shops, machinery training will add up cost by 1-2 million depends on number of aircraft's. Grabbing this deal will be a bench mark for future sales and the price would suggest the price for future sales. If this deal's go cheap all future deals will be affected by this one.


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## fatman17

salman-1 said:


> I don't think we would sale at $15/- Million per copy it's gonna be between 20-25 mill at least as only blk2 will be made now and it's price is max $25 mill per copy, plus the basic training general, maintenance work shops, machinery training will add up cost by 1-2 million depends on number of aircraft's. Grabbing this deal will be a bench mark for future sales and the price would suggest the price for future sales. If this deal's go cheap all future deals will be affected by this one.



The FC1 is the basic configuration that would be sold to the customer IMO as JF17 is PAF specific. So it will be the low cost solution which is around 15 mill.


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## Pinnacle

fatman17 said:


> The FC1 is the basic configuration that would be sold to the customer IMO as JF17 is PAF specific. So it will be the low cost solution which is around 15 mill.


makes sense but $15 mil is too low for a fighter jet. @salman-1 is right this price would affect all future sales price!


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## razgriz19

"Max Wake OFFICIAL™®© on Twitter: "Random Clicks From Operation [HASHTAG]#ZarbeAzb[/HASHTAG] [HASHTAG]#Pakistan[/HASHTAG] [HASHTAG]#PAF[/HASHTAG] http://t.co/cXFq93vHhT"

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## fatman17

The jointly-developed Chengdu/Pakistan Aeronautical ComplexJF-17 has secured its first export customer . The buyer is an undisclosed Asian nation, with the aircraft set for delivery starting in 2017. Myanmar showed signs of interest in the JF-17 back in June 2014 , with eleven states looking into procuring the aircraft, according to Pakistani and Chinese officials.


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## fatman17

PARIS AIR SHOW

DEFENSE

JF-17 Thunder Gets First Export Customer

by David Donald

June 15, 2015, 2:10 AM

Being exhibited at the Paris Air Show for the first time, the PAC/Chengdu JF-17 Thunder has secured a first export customer, according to the program office. Details of the customer, or the number of aircraft involved, remain undisclosed, but the first delivery is due in 2017. Furthermore, Air Commodore Khalid Mahmood, chief executive for JF-17 sales and marketing, told AIN that there were “12 interested countries at different stages. 

Located at Kamra, Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) has completed the Block 1 production of 50 aircraft for the Pakistan Air Force, the first eight of which were built as a pre-production batch but which have subsequently been raised to full operational capability. Another 50 aircraft in Block 2 are now in production, of which the air force has taken delivery of four. The build rate is currently running at 25 aircraft per year, but PAC is investigating increases that might be required in the future. The Block 2 aircraft feature inflight refuelling capability and improvements to avionics, electronic warfare equipment and other areas.

Now PAC and Chengdu are working on two major developments for the JF-17. Pakistan’s planned Block 3 aircraft is still to be defined, but a key area under study is a new radar, of Chinese origin, which could be a passive or electronically scanned antenna type. Another likely feature of Block 3 is the addition of a chin-station to allow the carriage of a targeting pod without having to give up a weapon station under the wing.

Pakistan has formal plans to acquire 50 Block 3 JF-17s, although that figure could rise. Aircraft from earlier blocks are likely to be upgraded to the later standard.

Two-seat Version Forthcoming

Another line of development for PAC and Chengdu is that of the two-seat JF-17B, driven partly by the needs of the export market. A model was displayed at the 2013 Paris show and again this year, while the formal go-ahead for the project was given around six months ago.

The two-seater is scheduled to fly at Chengdu’s plant in China in December 2016. The JF-17B retains full combat capability, and as much of the existing airframe is being kept as possible. The design features a humped dorsal spine to restore the fuel capacity displaced by the second seat, in turn requiring a dorsal fin to restore keel area.

In terms of JF-17 powerplant, Air Commodore Mahmood told AIN that, “We’re satisfied with the [Russian Klimov] RD-93, but some customers may want another engine. We have done preliminary studies on the [Eurojet] EJ200 and [Snecma] M88. They are doable.”

One area in which the JF-17 team is expanding options is that of ordnance. Currently, the aircraft is integrated with three Chinese weapons–the PL-5 and SD-10 air-to-air missiles and the C-802AK long-range anti-ship missile. Other ordnance used by the aircraft is produced in Pakistan by the Air Weapons Complex.

Recognizing that potential customers may wish to use older weapons in their inventories or those from other sources, a dedicated air force flight-test group has been established at Kamra to conduct weapons integration and other trials. The unit is currently involved in testing a GPS-guided kit of Pakistani origin that converts Mk 80-series bombs into precision weapons.

The air force has also implemented an integrated logistics support system for the JF-17, and full support is part of the export offering being made by Chengdu and PAC. The two companies are both marketing the JF-17 (also known as FC-1), either jointly or independently, focusing particularly on the low cost of acquisition compared with other fighters, as well as the low operating costs that accompany a new aircraft as opposed to the purchase of second-hand fighters. Regardless of which nation secures a sale, the work share for any export deal is similar.


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## fatman17

Thunder Remains Silent on Export Order

Jun 16, 2015
Paul Jackson | ShowNews


Pakistan’s JF-17 Thunder attack fighter is at the Paris Air Show to woo further export customers. Improved, Block II aircraft are now being delivered to the home air force.

With one signed export contract already secured, Pakistan’s JF-17 is cavorting in Parisian skies this week, intent on tempting additional sales, most particularly from Africa. Earlier appearances at Farnborough, Dubai and Zhuhai have played their part in publicizing the attack fighter’s capabilities. But, according to Air Commodore Khalid Mahmood, CEO of JF-17 Sales and Marketing, Paris is the place to meet Francophone potential customers.

The identity of the first export buyer remains a closely guarded secret and might not be divulged any time soon. Maintenance of the veil of discretion is assisted by the fact that media reports have identified countries (literally) between Argentina and Zimbabwe as being Thunder purchasers. “Hiding in plain sight,” indeed.

“We are talking intimately with a dozen possible customers,” says Mahmood, “and there are many more who are interested. Around the world, there are about 4,000 such aircraft that need replacing, particularly by budget-limited air forces. We expect to take a big share of the market, as the JF-17 costs only a third as much as some Western fighters.

“What we offer is cutting-edge technology at affordable cost,” he said.

Designed (as the FC-1) in Chengdu, China, to a Pakistani specification, the Thunder is built exclusively at Kamra, Pakistan. It is from this production line that export orders will come, with the Chinese supplying 42% of the aircraft’s components. This may vary slightly as customers are offered two basic avionics packages: one exclusively Chinese; the other combining local, Western and Chinese kit. Engines (RD-93s) come from Klimov in Russia.

The first customer has ordered “several batches” of Thunders, apparently including the long-awaited tandem-seat trainer version. The prototype is scheduled to fly in December 2016.

Meanwhile, the Pakistan air force (PAF) has equipped two squadrons and a tactics training unit with its first 50 Block I Thunders. Four improved, Block II aircraft have now been accepted by the PAF and the remaining 46 are following at the rate of three per two months. Inflight refueling probes will be installed on the second half of this batch.

Mahmood confirms that early work is being undertaken on a Block III configuration, probably to include enhancements to radar, avionics and weapons in conjunction with “chin” stations for sensor- or targeting pods. He was unable to confirm any connection between this program and the JF-17 weapons integration testbed (numbered 0213) which was built in China late last year.

Will export customers find, like some for U.S. aircraft, that certain high-tech equipment items are denied them? “The Americans are worried that, one day, they might find themselves fighting their own technology somewhere in the world,” explained Mahmood. “We don’t have that problem.”

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## fatman17

S/L Saifs 2 Israeli air force kills


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## fatman17

Order for JF-17 Thunder

PARIS: Pakistan Secures First Export Order for JF-17 Thunder

Posted on 17 June, 2015



Pakistan Air Force JF-17 Thunder 13-146 from 16 Squadron ‘Black Panthers’ departing from Pakistan on June 7 for the Paris Air Show. Pakistan has now secured its first export order for the type, but is declining to identify the customer. PAF

PAKISTAN’S Chengdu/PAC JF-17 Thunder has secured its first export order. Speaking at the Paris Air Show on Monday, June 15, Air Commodore Khalid Mahmood, CEO of JF-17 Sales and Marketing, confirmed that a contract for the type had been signed with an unspecified Asian country.

He remained tight-lipped regarding the customer and also would give no idea of the number of aircraft involved. He did indicate, however, that deliveries will begin in 2017. It is believed that the order comprises ‘several’ batches, which will reportedly include some of the long-expected tandem two-seat version, which is still under development. It is slated to make its maiden flight around December 2016.

Three Pakistan Air Force (PAF) JF-17s are at Le Bourget this week for the Show, with two available for the daily flying displays, one being a spare (10-123 and 13-143 both from 26 Squadron ‘Black Spiders’), while the third (13-146 from 16 Squadron ‘Black Panthers’) is in the static park.

In addition to the aircraft, Pakistan has brought an 80-strong marketing team to promote the JF-17 and attempt to attract further sales. There has been interest from numerous countries in the aircraft, with Khalid stating that around a dozen countries are in serious talks about a possible purchase, while many others are showing interest.

Myanmar could be the un-named buyer, as the country has for some time been talking about a possible purchase and unsubstantiated media reports in March of this year suggested that a deal may have already been agreed at that time. Elsewhere, Argentina, Bangladesh, Egypt, Nigeria and Tajikistan have also previously been linked with possible sales, although with its recent Rafale deal, Egypt is now unlikely to proceed with a JF-17 buy. In early December last year, Pakistani officials said that Nigeria was close to an order for between 25 and 40 JF-17s, but nothing more has been heard of this proposal as yet.

Khalid said that the PAF has inducted 54 of the type to date, comprising 50 in Block I configuration and four Block II aircraft. The latter feature a fixed in-flight refuelling probe (although this has not been fitted on the initial aircraft), upgraded avionics and improved software. The Block I aircraft are being progressively upgraded to Block II.

A total of 50 Block IIs are being acquired, with the remaining 46 to be delivered at an average rate of three every couple of months. An additional 50 will then follow, all of these being in Block III configuration, bringing total purchases to 150. The last of the total of 150 are scheduled for delivery by the end of 2018. The final specifications for the Block III have yet to be finalised. AFD-Dave Allport


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## fatman17

Recent news (June 2015) suggested that the FC-1#05 prototype is being converted to the JF-17B trainer configuration.
The latest news (June 2015) claimed that FC-1 just secured its first export contract from an unknown Asian customer.

- Last Updated 6/18/15

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## fatman17

Pakistan is planning on inducting the JF-17 Block II into its air force next year, with work reportedly having started already.

The jointly-developed Chinese/Pakistani JF-17 recently bagged its first export customer, with Myanmar previously expressing interest in the fighter.


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## black-hawk_101

fatman17 said:


> Pakistan is planning on inducting the JF-17 Block II into its air force next year, with work reportedly having started already.
> 
> The jointly-developed Chinese/Pakistani JF-17 recently bagged its first export customer, with Myanmar previously expressing interest in the fighter.


Who is the customer?


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## fatman17

black-hawk_101 said:


> Who is the customer?



Speculation is that it's Myanmar


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## hammad azhar

I think pakistan is going to buy engines from america for block 3 JF-17 which r mire powerfull ...i was reading day before on google


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## RAMPAGE

fatman17 said:


> Pakistan is planning on inducting the JF-17 Block II into its air force next year, with work reportedly having started already.
> 
> The jointly-developed Chinese/Pakistani JF-17 recently bagged its first export customer, with Myanmar previously expressing interest in the fighter.


I thought 4 were already built.


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## qwerrty



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## fatman17

Air Force: Pakistan, Turkey sign MoU for training pilots

Published: June 18, 2015

Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force (PAF), Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman has signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) with Turkish Air Force at the opening ceremony of Multinational Military Flight Crew Training (MMFCT) Centre on Wednesday.

Both the air forces have agreed to exchange two pilots for training every year. This would enhance the bilateral relations at a grass root level.

According to PAF, the main purpose of Multinational Military Flight Crew Training Centre (MMFCT-C) is to provide comprehensive training solutions to Fighter Pilots of Allies and to develop flight training tactics and techniques in line with Nato operational requirements.

It would also hone the interoperability amongst allies and partners for future operations and exercises.

The air chief also visited the Headquarters of Turkish Air Force

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## fatman17

TRAINING & SIMULATION

Pakistan And Turkey Sign Training Agreement

AAMIR QURESHI, 

Pakistani fighters F-16 fly on Nov. 4, 2013.

ISLAMABAD — Pakistan and Turkey on Wednesday signed an air force pilot training exchange agreement to help further improve bilateral relations, during the opening ceremony of the Multinational Military Flight Crew Training Centre (MMFCT-C) in Izmir, Turkey.


The agreement was signed by the head of Pakistan's air force, Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman.

According to a Pakistan Air Force (PAF) press release under the terms of the agreement both air forces will exchange two pilots every year.

"The main purpose of [MMFCT-C] is to provide comprehensive training solutions to Fighter Pilots of Allies and to develop flight training tactics and techniques in line with NATO's operational requirements. It would also hone the interoperability amongst Allies and partners for future operations and exercises. It is pertinent to mention that two fighter pilots from PAF are already performing instructional duties at MMFCT."

Analyst and former PAF pilot Kaiser Tufail, who has maintained a close association with the Turkish Air Force (TuAF) since his retirement, said efforts to date have been stifled by differences in teaching methods.

"So far the stumbling block has been that TuAF cadets undergo a 4-year training program which involves only studies for a bachelor's degree in one of four engineering disciplines (Aeronautical, Electrical, Industrial, and Computer). There is no flying training at the academy (except 10-odd orientation flights spread over four years). Flying training starts at Izmir after graduation from the Academy."

"In the PAF, on the other hand, flying cadets undergo a combined flying and studies training course, culminating in a bachelor's degree along with award of flying wings."

He understands these have now been reconciled.

"I am told that this issue has been resolved and TuAF's newly-graduated officers would join PAF Academy as Under Training Officers (UTOs) and undergo flying training for about 18 months. On the other hand, PAF's UTOs (already well-versed in aero-science studies) would join the flying training facility at Izmir for an 18-month flying training course," he said.

"In addition to all of the above, there is a likelihood of a few cadets of TuAF and PAF undertaking short internship programs on an exchange basis at the respective academies; this program has not yet been finalized."

Though analyst, author and former Australian defense attache to Islamabad, Brian Cloughley, points out that the present agreement is only for two pilots, and that the "PAF is world-class in its pilot training," it's therefore currently "largely a symbolic arrangement, bringing the countries closer in overall cooperation." The agreement does lay the groundwork for further co-operation.

"I'm sure that there will be more cooperation in many fields. As I said, this is a small move, but part of the big picture," he said.

The PAF has garnered much experience using precision guided munitions during counter insurgency operations against the Pakistani Taliban and its allies since 2007, but as to whether some of this experience may be of use to the TuAF that has faced similar operations against the Kurdish PKK, and as to what may be expected in the future however, Cloughley is uncertain.

"I can't think of any other specialized training that would be especially beneficial to either. But almost all exchanges of skilled personnel are beneficial to both sides. Much can't be quantified, but there is no doubt that there is always mutual benefit", he said.

He does point out, however, that there may still be potential to explore co-operation at more advanced stages of flight training.

"One of the best courses of instruction in world air forces is the RAF's Fast Jet Advanced Training Course, and both Turkey and Pakistan have similar programs which are recognized as being world-class," he said. "They could both benefit from exchanges, as no doubt there are refinements that could be included in each other's training."

In the meantime the PAF and TuAF have been building on established joint training endeavors.

During Air Chief Marshal Aman's stay in Turkey, he met with the head of the TuAF, General Akın Özturk, to discuss professional matters of interest, but was also heading the PAF contingent participating in 'Anatolian Eagle,' the multinational air force exercise hosted by Turkey of which Pakistan is regular attendee.

This is the PAF's ninth attendance since 2004, and the PAF contingent consisted of 86 personnel and six F-16 fighter aircraft. Air Chief Marshal Aman flew in one of the F-16s alongside the other participating pilots.

The accompanying PAF press release said, "Participation in a multi-national air exercise in Turkey shall be an interesting as well as challenging task for Falcons of the PAF. Besides Pakistan, leading air forces from United States, United Kingdom, Germany, Spain, Qatar, NATO and Turkey with their latest aircraft and platforms are orchestrating air battle scenarios in demanding operational environments."

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## fatman17

Mushshak at Romania air show


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## black-hawk_101

fatman17 said:


> Speculation is that it's Myanmar


So pak will sell to a country which is killing Muslims since 2 decades. Also pn n pa has also provided training to them which is now used to kill Muslims.


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## mingle

black-hawk_101 said:


> So pak will sell to a country which is killing Muslims since 2 decades. Also pn n pa has also provided training to them which is now used to kill Muslims.


Dont u think we can help burma muslims better if we have good military relation with them they will listen us definately plus burma share border with a country called Bangladesh ,how about indonesia malasyia ?they can better influnce burma but if pak want levrage then we must sell them arms .


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## black-hawk_101

mingle said:


> Dont u think we can help burma muslims better if we have good military relation with them they will listen us definately plus burma share border with a country called Bangladesh ,how about indonesia malasyia ?they can better influnce burma but if pak want levrage then we must sell them arms .


hahahahaha we are selling since 1 decade or so. But still no words to stop killing muslims.


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## fatman17

FC-1/JF-17 Thunder Dragon/Thunder

First revealed in 1995 as the successor of the cancelled Sino-US Super-7 project, FC-1(Fighter China-1, max TO weight 12,700kg, max speed M 1.8, service ceiling 16,920m, max weapon load 3,900kg, ferry range 3,480km, combat radius 1,352km, max g load +8.5) is being developed by CAC/611 Institute (with some technical assistance from Russian Mikoyan OKB) as a "medium tech", light weight fighter/ground attack aircraft carrying a relatively cheap price tag (~$20m).

As a fighter designed for export, its main customer is expected to be Pakistan who also shares 50% of the total cost (around $150m). It may also compete with second-hand F-16s to seize the market created by the retirement of Mig-21s, Mirage III and F-5s. Currently powered by a RussianRD-93 turbofan (upgraded RD-33, rated 8,795kg with a/b), it may also be powered by a locally produced WS-13 Taishan once the engine is ready. The A-6 style "V" shaped air-intakes are believed to provide smooth air flow to the engine at high AoA. The fire control radar is thought to be a Chinese KLJ-7V2 X-band multi-functional PD radar (track 10 and engage 2 simultaneously, look-up range 110km for RCS=3m2). A Chinese AESA radar might be installed in later batches. Other electronics include an NVG compatible glass cockpit (EFIS) with three 8"x6" color MFDs, HOTAS, AIFF, 1553B databus and INS/GPS. Weapon load includes both short (PL-5EII/PL-9C/AIM-9M) and medium-range AAMs (SD-10A). LGBs (LT-2/LT-3/GBU-16), GPS/INS guided bombs (LS-6), ASMs (C705KD), anti-radiation missiles (Brazilian MAR-1 or Chinese LD-10/CM102) and IRST/laser designation pod (WMD-7) can also be carried for ground attack missions. Up to 2 C-802AK AShMs can be carried for anti-ship missions. For high value fixed targets, up to 2 CM-400AKG standoff supersonic ASMs can be carried. For self-protection purpose a KG300G or KG600 ECM pod can be carried. The development schedule of FC-1 was repeatedly delayed caused by various problems, such as lack of funding, the reluctance of western countries to supply advanced avionics, as well as the revised specifications set by PAF to counter the threat from India's LCAs. These specifications included a true BVR attack capability with active radar guided medium-range AAMs (SD-10A). However,FC-1's prospect in the domestic market had diminished, as PLAAF had committed to the more advanced J-10 as its new generation fighter along with J-11 and was reluctant to acquire any FC-1s due to its less advanced design and a Russian engine. After lengthy negotiations, Pakistani government finally signed the contract with CATIC and CAC/611 in 1999 and gave the "go ahead" order to the much delayed project. The development was further accelerated after PAF recommitted the project and confirmed FC-1's technical specifications in detail in February 2001. A full-scale mock-up was quickly constructed. A total of 6 prototypes (01-06) were built at CAC. The 01 prototype rolled down the assembly line on May 31, 2003 with two small wing fences. Its maiden flight took place on August 25, 2003. The 03 prototype first flew on April 9, 2004 without the two small wing fences. The 04 prototype was expected to fly by the end of 2005 with full suite of avionics but this was delayed until April 2006 due to several structural modifications. They include new diverterless supersonic inlets (DSI/Bump) similar to those of American F-35 to reduce weight and achieve better performance. A large rectangular-shaped fairing is installed on top of the vertical tailfin which may house ECM equipment. Its flight control includes a Type 634 quadruplex digital FBW in pitch axis and a duplex analog FBW in roll axis. A UV band MAWS has been installed at the root of the vertical tailfin to provide rear hemisphere coverage. Two enlarged F/A-18 style LERX are thought to offer higher AOA as well. The first flight of 04 prototype took place on April 28, 2006, and 06 prototype on September 10, 2006. The first two pre-production JF-17s (PAF designation Joint Fighter-17 Block I, 00 batch/07-101 & 102) were delivered to Pakistan on March 2, 2007, with the nose-tip pitot tube removed. The 01 batch of 6 JF-17s (08-103 -- 08-108) were delivered between March and April 2008. The contract for PAF to acquire another 42 JF-17s assembled by PAC was singed on March 7, 2009. The first two (09-109 & 110) were built by CAC. The first JF-17 (09-111) in the batch of 4 assembled by PAC rolled out on November 23, 2009. The production of the 50 Block I concluded by the end of 2013 with another 50 Block II to follow in 2014. Besides Pakistan, several Asian, African and South America countries also expressed interest inFC-1/JF-17, including Egypt, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Azerbaijan, Myanmar and Argentina. FC-1 passed design appraisal in December 2009. The first taxiing test of FC-1powered by an indigenous WS-13 took place on March 18, 2010. Currently the flight test of the engine is still underway. A further upgraded variant (JF-17 Block II/JF-17A?) featuring a detachable IFR probe, improved avionics (including secure datalink withZDK-03) and enhanced precision-guided weapon capability has been under development as well, which be supported by the PAF Il-78MP tanker. The Block II variantis expected to be followed by the Block III, which might feature a more powerful engine (WS-13?), a new AESA radar, IRST, HMD and additional types of weapons. A tandem-seat trainer version (JF-17B) was first unveiled at the 2013 Paris Airshow by CATIC, which has the electronic compartment removed from top of the vertical tailfin. The assembling of the first three JF-17 Block IIs (S/N 15-20x) started at PAC in mid-2014. First flight of 15-201 took place on February 9, 2015. It is expected that all the Block I JF-17s will be upgraded to the Block II standard. In January 2015 one FC-1prototype ([HASHTAG]#0213[/HASHTAG]) was seen testing a new environmental control system for the high temperature/high humidity environment, presumably at the request of potential customers from Africa, South Asia or South America. It was reported in April 2015 that Argentine Air Force has been negotiating to order a number of JF-17 Block IIs but no further information is available. Recent news (June 2015) suggested that the FC-1#05 prototype is being converted to the JF-17B trainer configuration. The latest news (June 2015) claimed that FC-1 just secured its first export contract from an unknown Asian customer (Sri Lanka or Myanmar?). The contract could involve an initial batch of 12-14 aircraft and the delivery might start in 2016.

- Last Updated 6/21/15

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## fatman17

Kudos to PAF


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## Major Shaitan Singh



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## fatman17

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Flying Officer Junaid Saleem has achieved the singular distinction of winning the “Best Overseas Cadet Award” at Britain's Royal Air Force (RAF) College at Cranwell.


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## fatman17

12 major IAF bases just across the eastern border

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## Hurter

fatman17 said:


> 12 major IAF bases just across the eastern border



Bro kindly upload pics in full size.


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## fatman17

Junaid B said:


> Bro kindly upload pics in full size.



I'm on PDF mobile


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## fatman17

Supposedly weapons storage facility

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## fatman17

Pakistan Air Force & F-104

When Khruschev threatened to drop a nuclear bomb on Peshawer after the U-2 incident, PAF acquired a dozen F-104s to protect the city from high flying Soviet bombers. At PAF’s request, all its F-104As were refitted with the M-61 Gatling 20 mm gun, whereas its counterparts in the USAF had been divested of their guns on the assumption that all post-Korea air combat would occur at high speeds where only the wing tip-mounted Sidewinder missiles would be effective. 
The PAF’s foresight was amply rewarded in actual combat and the USAF too reverted to having machine guns as mandatory equipment on all its fighters in due course. The newer GWE- J-79-11 engine was also installed on the aircraft. This made the Pakistan F-104s somewhat unique: they had the gun and being the lightest of F-104 series with a more advanced J-79 engine enjoyed the best thrust-to-weight ratio.

The only PAF unit to be equipped with the F-104 was No 9 Air Superiority Squadron. The squadron flies the F-16 today. The in-commission rate of the F-104 during the first five years of service was over 80 % and all its systems performed with high reliability. The fighter was employed in the air-to-air role by the PAF and was used extensively for aerial gunnery against both banner targets and the Dart targets with excellent scores. In strafing attacks the M-61 gun was superbly accurate.

The F-104 Starfighters remained in service with Pakistan Air Force for twelve years and flew 11,690 hours. During the 1965 Pakistan-India War, the F-104s flew a total of 246 hours and 45 minutes while during the 1971 War, the F-104s flew a total of 103 hours and forty-five minutes.

My personal experience of watching the speed and sound of F-104 happened in the mid 60s when PAF provided an air display on Pakistan Day at Peshawar Air Base. Many of the jets were lined up on the airfield on a crisp cool morning. To demonstrate the high altitude intercept capability, an intruder B-57 was sent up first. After some other demonstrations it was announced that the intruder has been detected and two F-104 thundered near vertically off the run way. Soon after the contrails of the intruder and two much faster contrails of F-104s performing an intercept could be visibly seen by the awed spectators.

To give you a better feel for the performance of F-104s with PAF I have taken the liberty of attaching some extracts by

Wg Cdr Aftab Alam Khan, Pakistan Air Force (Retd)

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## fatman17

Introduction

This is a personal account of the crucial role played by the dozen F-104 Starfighters of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) in the Indo-Pakistan War of September 1965. The Indian Air Force (IAF) had then approximately 900 aircraft against PAF’s total of only 150. To win the battle for air superiority against these odds was a daunting task. Losing air superiority would have meant that Pakistan would have had to face the full might of the IAF, the consequences of which would have been disastrous. It was therefore imperative, that the PAF won and kept control of the air.

Induction of the Starfighter in the PAF

Sqn Ldr Sadruddin and Flt Lt Middlecoat landed the first Starfighters at PAF Base Sargodha in 1962. In the following months, Pakistan inducted a total of 10 F-104A and two dual seat F-104B training aircraft in No 9 Squadron. These were USAF F-104C aircraft refurbished and updated with the latest J-79-11A engine, and upward ejection seats. Equipped with the M-61 Vulcan six barrel gun, the AIM-9B Sidewinder missile and the AN/ASG-14T1 fire control system, the aircraft was designed for high altitude (above 5000 feet), day /night interception/combat. Pakistan was the first country in Asia to induct a Mach 2 aircraft into its airforce. While most countries in Europe were still flying subsonic aircraft and none in Asia had an aircraft of this class and technology, many in Pakistan and abroad were skeptical of the PAF’s ability to fly and maintain this advanced system. The PAF’s flying skills, technological prowess, and competence, were soon proven. The pilots and ground crew of No.9 Squadron, who had been handpicked from F-86 squadrons, became the envy of the PAF by gaining mastery of the aircraft. To be part of No.9 Squadron, the cream of the PAF, was a great honour and privilege. In 1964 I was lucky to be given this honor. Sqn Ldr Jamal A Khan, the Squadron Commander was a very dedicated officer who set and maintained high standards. Training and flying in this Squadron was hard work. Safety always came first.

The J-79-11A engine was sophisticated and complicated. It had inlet guide vanes in front of the engine, and a variable nozzle system in the rear. These were liable to fail, but the PAF maintenance crew had mastered the equipment. We only had one engine flame out, and the pilot Flt Lt Khalid managed to make a ‘dead stick’ landing. This was a difficult maneuver requiring precise judgement. The pattern was flown at 240kts and the landing flare started 300 ft above ground level, to make a touch down at 190 kt, on a 9000 feet long runway. Only one F-104 was lost during training -- a training air combat sortie -- in which Flt Lt Asghar ‘pitched up’, and went into a spin. He ejected safely at high speed, and received major bruises. The aircraft was replaced under the MAP program. Operational training was fun. Flying at Mach 2 was an incomparable experience. The thrill of coming under radar control, attacking F-86 formations, that were denied radar help, was a fighter pilot’s dream come true. The F-104 zoomed out of nowhere, and before the F-86 pilots could start their defensive maneuvers, the F-104 had completed its simulated missile launch and was breaking off.

Early in 1965, warlike activity started in the disputed territory of Indian held Kashmir. Air Vice Marshal (AVM) Nur Khan had taken command of the PAF, just before the war. These were the days when we would be briefed daily, ‘under no account should any IAF aircraft be pursued across the border, if an aircraft is shot down, the wreckage must fall within Pakistani territory’. This was done to ensure that India would not be provoked into escalating to an all out war. All the concentration was along the disputed territory of Kashmir. On 3rd September 1965 an IAF Gnat was flying over Pakistan, on its way to its home base. A lone F- 104 was vectored to intercept the aircraft. Closing in at supersonic speed, the F-104 crossed the Gnat. There was no chance of making a successful intercept. But the Gnat pilot, probably thinking that there were more aircraft in the area, promptly lowered his gears and landed at a disused Pakistani airfield below, and surrendered himself. At that time, few thought that there was any chance of a real war breaking out. Life went on as usual. The routine was that a daily morning Combat Air patrol (CAP) would be airborne well before dawn. The F-104 formation would climb to 30, 000 feet, patrol the area near Kashmir and land back one hour after sunrise.

The War

The balloon went up on the morning of 6th September 1965. I got airborne with my wingman on a CAP mission. We climbed out under radar control, and were directed to the border near Kashmir. I was informed that the IAF had crossed the Pakistani border and were attacking ground positions approximately 80nm south of us. This meant that India had actually decided to start an all out war. We were immediately vectored to the area, and were soon over the site where the Indian aircraft were attacking. While dawn was breaking at 15,000 feet, it was still dark down below. I asked for permission to descend to ground level, but was denied. The reason given was that radio contact would be lost. I, however, decided to descend and leaving my wingman at 15,000 feet, to act as radio relay, I dove down and headed towards some flashes. As I reached the area, I was surprised to see that I was flying head-on into a formation of four IAF Mystere IV aircraft that were attacking ground targets. I was shocked more than I was surprised, as I felt a wave of anger leap through me. I had to shoot down these aircraft. I jettisoned my external fuel tanks and started to engage the Mysteres, as they turned into me. Maneuvering started at tree top level. I kept my eyes ‘glued’ on the target. I could feel the strain, under high ‘G’s’, looking over the tail of the aircraft, keeping the enemy in sight, and skimming the trees at high speed. One mistake, and I would have hit the ground. If I had lost sight of the Mysteres, the fight would have been over. The F-104, with the afterburner blazing, at low altitude, was responding very well. I used the high speed take -off Flaps to improve the turning capability as required. The ‘Stick Shaker’ was a big help, in flying the aircraft to its limit. The Mysteres would have no problem keeping the F-104 in sight because of its afterburner. After some hectic maneuvering, I was positioned behind two aircraft, but the other two were still not visible. I then spotted them, further ahead. Joy leapt through me; I armed my weapons, and decided to shoot the first two with missiles and the next two with guns. I fully realized that a confidential order prohibited me from using the missiles below 10, 000 ft. However, I was sure the missiles could be used effectively at any height, provided the targets could be discriminated from background heat sources. A distinct increase in missile tone ensured this. I set the wingspan of the Mystere IV, and started to recall the missile-firing checklist. ‘Check Range’, ‘Check Tone’, ‘Check G’s’, ‘Squeeze the trigger and hold’. I aimed the missile at the nearest aircraft, and heard the loud pitched missile tone. The sight indicated that I was in range. With all other requisite firing conditions met, I squeezed the trigger, and kept it pressed. I waited, only to note that the missile had not fired. As I looked towards the left missile, I saw a big flash, and the missile leaving the aircraft. The missile had taken, as stipulated in the manual, approx. 8/10ths of a second to fire after the trigger had been pressed but in combat, this seemed like an eternity. The flash of the missile blinded me for a few seconds. The radar controller who was also monitoring the radio of the Mystere’s, immediately informed me that one Mystere had been shot down and that another had been damaged. I was then at once instructed to turn right and pick up visual contact with the other Mysteres, which were exiting. I turned as directed but could not see them.

On landing back, I was informed that the dog fight had taken place overhead the Rahwali Airfield where a low powered radar was located. The Mystere’s wreckage had fallen close by; the other three had gotten away. It gave me great satisfaction and amusement to think the effect that would be created on the IAF when the tale of the encounter with, ‘the F-104′ was narrated by the pilots who got away. To quote Hussaini, the PAF’s official aviation painter, ‘Apart from being the first encounter to start the war in earnest, the engagement was also significant in other respects. It marked a new era in dogfighting at very low altitude. It was also the first combat kill by any Mach 2 aircraft and the first missile kill for the Pakistan Air Force’. Moreover, it was also proven that the F-104 and the Sidewinder missile were an effective weapon system at low altitude.

India had launched a full-scale attack, and we were now at war. India had the advantage of the aggressor, but had failed to take advantage of the ‘first strike’. The PAF now had to counter attack. The Air Chief arrived on the base. As I saw him he looked confident, and very aggressive. He was a genius; his planning was only surpassed by his boldness in execution. He had to fight 900 Indian aircraft with his 150. What could he do? The odds were impossible. He immediately gave instructions to reconnoiter (recce) the forward IAF air bases of Halwara and Adampur with the F-104. The pilots returned to report that the airfields had a full compliment of aircraft. He then enquired how many aircraft were available for a ‘dusk attack’. He was told that only seven F-86’s were serviceable. He ordered four to attack the IAF Base of Adampur, and three to attack Halwara Air Base. The plan appeared absurd. Attacking an airfield with only four aircraft and three aircraft respectively, after a recce .The enemy would be waiting. The attack was sure to fail. Subordinate commanders tried to convince the Chief to withdraw the order. None of us could appreciate the reason behind his logic. Command is lonely, and it takes courage to stand by one’s convictions. The Chief stood firm. The ‘dusk attack’ was launched.

Of the seven PAF F-86 aircraft that took part in the ‘Dusk Strike’ two were shot down. The PAF kept attacking the IAF bases all night with B-57 bombers. The Air Chief hoped that the IAF would retaliate next morning, and attack the main PAF fighter base Sargodha that was 90 nm from the border. Radar was not effective at low altitude; therefore, the PAF had a string of Mobile Observer Units (MOU’s), that could plot and report low flying aircraft in Pakistani territory. Since the IAF attack was expected at low level, it would not be a surprise for the PAF. The only question now was, whether the IAF would take the bait, and attack Sargodha. Early next morning, on 7th September 1965, a large number of PAF F-104 and F-86 aircraft set up a Combat Air Patrol (CAP), over /near Sargodha, waiting for the enemy to attack. The F-104s were assigned the outer perimeter, while the F-86s were kept closer to the airfield. The Mobile Observer Units started to report the incoming intruders as they crossed the border and headed for Sargodha. The anti-aircraft guns opened fire as the first group of attacking aircraft came in. Surprisingly, these planes got through, without being intercepted. The next attack was picked up by Flt Lt Arif Iqbal in a F-104, and as he was about to fire, he suddenly saw an F- 86 flight appear between him and the enemy, and shoot down the Mystere. The attacks then came wave after wave, each one being intercepted, mostly by F-86’s, because they were positioned closer to the airfield. Flt Lt Amjad, in a F-104, shot down a Mystere, only to fly into the debris of the exploding aircraft. He ejected safely. By noon all attacks had ceased. The ‘Battle for Sargodha’ had been won. Never again in this war did the IAF venture to attack Sargodha in daytime. AVM Nur Khan had scored; the genius and courage of his plan had worked, his main air defence assets were safe.

The pilots of No.9 Squadron competed fiercely, to undertake as many combat missions as they could. Never missing a chance to close with the enemy, hungry for combat. In the days that followed, the F-104 pilots noted that whenever they got airborne, the IAF grounded all its aircraft. This made it very difficult for the F-104 pilots to engage the enemy during daytime hours. Flt Lt Mushtaq, my brother, flying a F-104 in the same Squadron, made contact with the enemy, only to note that as he approached the target, the IAF Hunters disengaged well in time. Flt Lt ‘Micky’ Abbas in an F-104 had a similar episode. This experience would be repeated for the F-104 pilots for all daytime interceptions. I personally patrolled in a lone F-104, at 30,000ft, deep inside Indian territory, over the two Indian fighter airfields of Adampur and Halwara for one hour, and there was no response from the Indian side, no IAF fighter aircraft were scrambled to engage the intruder leisurely loitering over Indian airbases. This was total air superiority, and it displayed the complete and utter supremacy the Starfighter enjoyed over the IAF.

At medium and high altitudes the F-104 ruled the sky. The IAF refused to challenge the Starfighter, keeping at a safe arm’s length distance from challenging it. But below 5000ft, a fierce battle raged between the F-86 and the IAF fighters, mainly the Hunters and Gnats. The F-86 was the workhorse of the PAF, it was under-powered, outnumbered, and out-gunned. Nevertheless, the F-86 pilots showed great courage as they fearlessly engaged their opponents, and displayed an unusual skill for air combat, achieving an excellent kill ratio. The F-104 by controlling the sky at medium and high altitude, had reduced the workload for the F-86 ‘s to the extent that the disparity in numbers was manageable. The F-86’s could now hold their own against the enemy at low altitude. The F-104/F-86 team had won the battle for the air. The PAF had fully established air superiority. The job had been done; numbers did not matter now. The will of the enemy to fight the F-104 had been broken. It was a tremendous contribution by the F-104 in the war effort. The Starfighter reigned supreme. It had played a pivotal role in the defense of Pakistan, and the battle for air supremacy by the PAF.

Tribute to the Starfighter

Pakistan got the better of the IAF, with odds of 1:6 or 150:900, and the PAF maintained Air Superiority, day and night. The genius and courage of Air Marshal Nur Khan and the F-104/F-86 team had made this possible. Undoubtedly, the F-86 was the workhorse, but the F-104 had a very special task. The PAFpilot/F-104 team had created a situation where the IAF pilots did not have the will to fight the F-104. When the F-104 was ‘UP’, the Indian Air Force was ‘Down on the Ground’. This removed a major portion of the threat. The Starfighter and its pilots had contributed immensely to achieve this victory. The pilots by flying and engaging enemy aircraft very aggressively, never losing any opportunity to engage the enemy, by day or by night. Working long hours, and flying under difficult flight conditions. The maintenance crew and the F-104 deserve a special accolade, ‘not one technical abort, or snag affected a mission’. The F-104 was flown by determined pilots, maintained by efficient crew and supported by dedicated radar controllers. This made a tremendous team, that helped win the battle for air superiority for the PAF. The F-104 Starfighter was in a class of its own-‘Superlative’, to say the least. Without the dozen Starfighters the outcome of the war might not have been so good. ‘It definitely was a pleasure, a great thrill, and the ultimate experience to fly the F-104 in Combat’.

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## fatman17

The indomitable AM M Nur Khan HJ.

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## GHOST RIDER

fatman17 said:


> The indomitable AM M Nur Khan HJ.



Are their any books written by Nur Khan ?
Would love to read about the man in detail
Asghar Khan as written many books ,mostly political except for The First Round


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## Paksanity

fatman17 said:


> The indomitable AM M Nur Khan HJ.



Rarely has our nation or any nation for that matter produce jewels like these. Watch this

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## fatman17

Remembering Gary Powers' U2 flight from Peshawar in 1960

George Singleton

May 08, 20100 

UNITED STATES: I recently became acquainted with Gary Powers, Jr – son of the world famous American U2 pilot – who took off from a Pakistan Air Force base in Peshawar on May 1, 1960 and was, later that day, shot down over the former USSR. Pilot Gary Powers' destination was a landing field in coastal Norway.

Some old timers – like me – may recall that in the early 1960s the PAF and the US also flew some intelligence missions in RB-57s from Lahore, in addition to those flown from Peshawar.

The May issue of The Cold War Times magazine's online version features the first of my 12 articles about my 18-month tour of duty between 1963-65 as commander, Detachment 2, 6,937th Communications Group, the subordinate Karachi unit at our US embassy, then in Karachi, for my higher headquarters – the 6937th Communications Group (sometimes referred to as the Peshawar air station) – at Badabur, near Peshawar. Due at least in part to Gary Powers' shoot down in the U2 on May 1, 1960, all US military personnel associated with the US base at Badabur were required to only wear civilian clothing off-base in Karachi, Lahore and across the country.

After the Soviet shoot-down, then US president Eisenhower suspended U2 flights from and through Pakistan. However, the Cold War was still in full force and a replacement intelligence gathering reconnaissance aircraft was needed. For a time, RB-57D models were flown along the air borders of both the USSR and Communist China by the PAF. But these aircraft lacked the wing size to attain really high altitude. So, redesigning some RB-57Ds, which included a much-larger wing structure, produced the RB-57F, two of which were loaned to the PAF for free by the US in June 1964.

After the U2 programme in Pakistan was suspended by president Eisenhower, the USAF adopted the RB-57 Canberra and, over time through US private contractors, improved and amended it's designed purposes to include aerial intelligence gathering. The PAF had aircrews, well trained by both the UK and US in both British and US versions of the RB-57. Two RB-57Fs, loaned to the PAF, had a published upper altitude capability of 82,000 feet. Along with training a few PAF pilots to fly the aircraft, the US plane contractor brought to Texas two RAF pilots trained to fly this aircraft wearing pressure suits, to augment the PAF pilots. All this happened during increasing tension when then foreign minister Mr Bhutto was beating the drum with the Pakistani army chief towards the eventual 1965 Indo-Pak war.

Mr Bhutto tried hard to get the RB-57Fs flown over Kashmir and India to gather intelligence. But the professional and honourable air chief marshal Ashgar Khan refused Bhutto's bullying and did his job with the US to stay focused on our joint mission of intelligence gathering of and from the USSR and China. One thing I knew of first hand was that foreign minister Bhutto also tried, again unsuccessfully, to pressure the UK air adviser to the British High Commissioner in Pakistan, the US air attachÃ©, and my boss to fly intelligence gathering missions, which Bhutto wanted over Kashmir and India. Again, Mr Bhutto met absolute rebuffs and turndowns. Kashmir and India were not the mission of our Cold War-focused intelligence programme.

This history recitation is in honour and recognition of the 50th anniversary of pilot Gary Powers' (Sr) U2 flight from the Pakistan air field at Peshawar. George L Singleton is a retired colonel of the United States Armed Forces


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## fatman17

A visit to PAC Kamra 

Author with Air Marshal Sohail Gul

The Home of JF 17

By Raja G Mujtaba

My visit to PAC Kamra is split into two parts. First when I visited the place, Air Marshal Sohail Gul, the Chairman of Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) had to leave at a very short notice for an emergent meeting at the ministry thus no meeting with him could take place. Without meeting the Chairman the visit was inconclusive, many questions remained unanswered. It was nice of him to have me invited again and we had some open heart discussions on PAC and its future plans and capabilities.

The complex houses multi-faceted facilities manufacturing which enable it to undertake complete manufacture of new aircraft, aircraft structure overhaul, Aircraft component overhaul, Aircraft Engine overhaul, Radar & Avionics manufacture, maintenance and overhaul etc. To cater for the needs of all the tasks, PAC has laid down stringent standards to meet the international requirements of the aviation industry.

It is also manufacturing fuel tanks for external stowage. The glass canopies that are not only required for the new aircraft but also need to be replaced often as a routine maintenance are a frequent need of the Air Force. To meet this demand, a unit has been installed to produce single piece glass canopies for various aircrafts in PAF inventory. It is also being envisioned that after acquisition of this technology PAC Kamra would also be able to meet export orders from other countries around the world. The theme of the PAC Chairman is to make PAC an earning organization for Pakistan by exporting its products and services to other countries.

It was my first meeting ever with the Air Marshal who left a strong impression about the potential and future of PAC. I found Sohail Gul to be a go getter and man whose drives are charged to expand the activities of PAC beyond horizons.

Going back over history of PAC, In 1971 which is 5 years after the induction of F-6 in PAF, it was realized that these Aircraft have started falling due for overhaul and in the absence of a pertinent facility in country they are to be sent to China for overhaul which is resulting in huge amounts of spending in terms of foreign exchange and is generating undesirable down time for every Aircraft. With this background the commanders of Pakistan Air Force at that time decided to embark on the colossal task of creating an indigenous overhauling facility for the F6 fleet. After successful negotiations with the OEM at China and Chinese government establishment of this facility was started at Kamra under the supervision of Chinese experts. This facility was completed and first Aircraft was rolled out in 1974.Having gained the experience of overhauling of a Chinese origin Aircraft it was decided that a similar facility for the next biggest fleet of Pakistan Air Force i-e; French origin Mirages be established. After necessary homework in this direction the project for establishing Mirage Rebuild Factory (MRF) was started in 1974 and it successfully rolled out the first Mirage in 1980.Having gained the experience of overhauling both Chinese and Western origin Aircraft natural course of action was to enter the arena of Aircraft Manufacturing. As a humble beginning a light trainer Aircraft MFI-17 was selected for indigenous Manufacturing. As the Manufacturing facility demanded higher degree of core capability yet another factory had to be initiated for accommodating this area. After successful negotiation with the Swedish OEM Aircraft Manufacturing Factory was started in 1975 which produced the first indigenous MFI-17 (Mushak) in 1983.

This rebuild experience of F 6 later became very helpful in rebuilding of other aircraft like Mirages, A5, and F7s etc. This also paved way for Engine Rebuild Factory where all the engines on PAF inventory are being rebuilt with some locally manufactured parts. This effort has not only saved valuable foreign exchange but also provided the experience and the skills to start building complete aircraft.

Also due to the safety factor for the pilots, all the F6s and the subsequent Chinese aircraft were given Martin Baker (MB) ejection system.

After the rebuild factories, when sufficient skills were acquired, the next logical step was to start manufacturing small aircraft; this opportunity was provided by the Americans when they cancelled the lease of their T 37s basic jet trainers at the PAF Academy Risalpur. Looking for a more affordable, dependable and with no strings the Pakistan Air Force looked towards Sweden and selected MFI -17

Mushshak, originally known as Safari was acquired from SAAB of Sweden that took to the air for a maiden flight in 1971. It was powered by a single 200 hp Avco Lycoming IO-360-A1B6 air-cooled 4-cylinder engine having a one twin-blade propeller. This was also used for reconnaissance, observation and transportation purposes; there are attachment points (hard points) under the wings for extra fuel tanks and weapons, allowing the aircraft to perform ground attack sorties.

Mushshak is based on Swedish technology that Pakistan acquired in the 80s. Initially, it was powered by a single 200 hp Avco Lycoming IO-360-A1B6 air-cooled 4-cylinder engine having a one twin-blade propeller. After having acquired it, PAC embarked on its development of the MFI-395 in 1995 by upgrading the MFI-17 with an advanced 260 hp engine, electrical instruments, dual flight control systems and a Bendix RSA fuel injection system. Now it is upgraded and designated as Super Mushshak.

Initially, Pakistan took delivery of 18 Supporters, while 92 were assembled locally and thereafter rest were built locally by PAC. It was renamed as Mushshak (Proficient) when came into Pakistan’s service. In 1981, Pakistan acquired sole manufacturing rights of the Supporter.

After successful negotiation with the Swedish OEM Aircraft Manufacturing Factory was started in 1975 which produced the first indigenous MFI-17 (Mushak) in 1983.

It has a forward swept shoulder wing that improves all-round visibility for the pilots. The wings were forward-swept only to maintain correct center of gravity. The military version was called MFI-17 and later, the Saab Supporterwhen the project was taken over by Saab.

Fitted with an American 260 hp engine, cockpit air-conditioning, electrical instruments, and electric/manual elevator and rudder trim, the aircraft has been developed to meet FAR part 23 certification in categories normal, utility and aerobatics.

Talking to Col Tariq Shah Khan, a retired army aviator is all praise for this aircraft. According to him, it is one of the safest and best in its class that can take over 5 Gs when going into aerobatics. Incidentally he was the first from the army to fly it and ferry it to an army base at Dhamial, Rawalpindi. He further elaborated that it has a spacious side by side cockpit giving good contact between the pilot and the co-pilot/observer or between the student and the instructor. The Super Mushshak meets the requirements of a modern primary training syllabus and is an ideal basic trainer for basic flight training and instrument flying.

Over 300 Mushahak have been produced both for Pakistan Air Force and Pakistan Army. A sizeable number have been exported also to countries like Saudi Arabia, Syria, Oman, and South Africa have acquired it from Pakistan to meet their training requirements. Now serious negotiations are on with a number of countries that Air Marshal Sohail Gul hopes to seal the deal soon.

Another encouraging feature is that Flying clubs within Pakistan that were previously flying American trainers are switching to Mashshak for its performance and cost effectiveness. This has further improved the chances of marketing Mushshak in the private sector.

Talking to Air Marshal Sohail Gul, who said it can be stretched to carry 2 or more passengers but only if there are substantial orders to recover the development cost; also it would need FAA approvals to sell them to international buyers. But it is feasible provided some extensive marketing is done with prototypes or computer designed replicas and graphics to show to the potential buyers. Even within Pakistan, there can be substantial demand in the private sector for charter duties. But it sure warrants a full-fledged study.If a couple of seats could be added by stretching it, small operators like oil and gas companies could charter it for their off route duties. Perhaps with proper marketing maybe foreign markets can also be acquired.

Today PAC in collaboration with China has jointly produced 2 jet aircraft namely K 8 and JF 17. Former is an advanced trainer that has replaced ageing T 33s but can also be employed as a basic trainer. If needed, K 8 can also perform military missions of a limited nature. JF 17 is a high tech modern jet fighter that can be compared with any 4th generation fighters of today. Mushshak is a light basic trained that is being manufactured with complete PAC efforts again to international standards and serving many air forces of the world. This too has hard points to carry arms and ammunition and extra fuel with extra tanks.

During the talk with Air Marshal Gul, my special interest was in S/VTOL aircraft as they are going to replace the conventional fighter jets. The US along with the NATO allies, has made heavy investments in developing F 35. Presently though it is going through some design and manufacturing defect phase but it has come to stay. It has become the front line multi role aircraft with its various versions to suit and meet different operational needs. The US is not the only country to be making it; the UK was the first to introduce this technology with the launch of Sea Harriers. These aircraft played a significant role in Falkland war.

Today more countries have embarked upon this technology in producing state of the art aircraft. Russia was the first to produce supersonic VTOL with exceptional performance envelop. YAK 41 was fully tested and ready for mass production had to be shelved for after the demise of Soviet Union, Russia did not have sufficient funds to go into production.

Today China, Brazil and some more countries are investing in A/VTOL technology. Today it’s about time that in order to stay abreast with latest trends, PAC will also need to venture into S/VTOL technology; of course the first demand has to come from home in that if future war doctrines are evaluated, maybe besides the PAF, Pakistan Navy may also have a need for such aircraft.

When asked if PAC after the JF 17 experience was in a position to undertake S/VTOL venture. Air Marshal Gul was very confident and realistic that yes, with the involvement of another country in the project it could be undertaken and hopefully PAC would live up to its milestone of designing and flying within 30 months.

The most significant being the C130 Allison T 56-A-15 engines and Mirage III Attar engines. On these engines, PAC has acquired the required level of quality assurance that even other countries are sending their equipment for overhauls and rebuilding. Now this has become a source of earning for Pakistan.

These days the most talked about aircraft is no other than JF-17, a joint production with the Chinese CATIC. Here PAC stunned the world when it designed the aircraft that took to the air within 30 months, it’s an amazing feat. Normal standards are that it takes at least 10 years to design and fly an aircraft. This is a minimum time for any aircraft anywhere in the world. Having achieved this, PAC has set tough standards for itself. Now the nation and the world at large expect similar feats in future also. Chairman was quite positive that given the task, similar feats would be performed again.

Now JF 17 is fully operational, the weapon system integration including the air to air weaponry has been completed. With that, Block 1 of JF 17 is also being completed. There has been some delay for reasons undisclosed but now Block 2 is ready to be launched sometimes this year.

Talking on its exports, presently PAC is meeting the demand of PAF, after that they have all the plans to export it to the world. Some hot queries are coming in but the production capacity remains the hindrance. To that it was suggested, PAC should expand the building capacity and double it. The additional capacity can be dedicated for foreign orders only.

JF 17 has participated in several airshows in different countries where it was highly praised for its agility, maneuverability and its looks. In every show it came out to be a jewel in the sky.

JF 17 is powered by Russian RD 93 engine that’s one of the most efficient engines. It has a thrust of 18,000 lbs and very fuel efficient. RD 93 is also powering the latest Russian aircraft like MIG 35. Therefore this engine has a future based on which, PAC can also develop more aircraft.

Pakistan through a contract has the right to manufacture 58% of the aircraft, so far it has achieved about 35%, and remaining 23% is also expected to be achieved by mid-2014. If achieved, it would be a major accomplishment not only for PAC but for Pakistan also.

Co-production and joint marketing with China is the true spirit behind the JF-17.but in a way both Pakistan and China are in competition also to sell and market it. On this Air Marshal Gul said that even if CATIC sells it, PAC would get its 58% component share irrespective therefore it’s a win win situation either way.

The pace of development of complex definitely provides a silver lining on the horizon for the people of Pakistan that In the near future Pakistan would stand out as a country which can produce future generation Fighter Aircraft indigenously. Like Mirage stood to build the economy of France, JF 17 has the same potential for Pakistan but no time must be lost.

I went around various factories and shops of PAC, the equipment that was deployed to manufacture the aircraft and its spares not only for PAF but even for companies like Boeing of Seattle was very encouraging. I was specially shown the shop where parts for Boeing 777 and 787, the Dreamliner were being manufactured. To be able to supply parts for such state of the art technology aircraft, speaks for itself. The Chairman said that they are also in negotiations with Airbus for supply of similar parts for their aircraft. If it gets through, the technological base, more so in metallurgy would attain some level that would be useful in so many other ways both for PAC and other industries in the country.

The pace of development of complex definitely provides a silver lining on the horizon for the people of Pakistan that In the near future Pakistan would stand out as a country which can produce future generation Fighter Aircraft indigenously.

Pakistan lacks in metallurgy, it needs to invest heavily in its development. It would not be possible without private sector participation. The Research and Development (R & D), PAC is no exception to that. The overall shortfall also affects PAC adversely. The government needs to encourage R&D through private sector. For that it must provide incentive to the private sector in the shape of tax relief. The industrial and business community must invest 5% of its revenue in R&D through respective Chambers of Commerce and Industries. These funds must be passed on to the universities for carrying out R&D that can be later handed over to the private sector for manufacturing as mass production.

PAC is encouraging the private sector to participate in its efforts but quality control remains the basic hurdle. However if proper guidance and incentives are provided to the private entrepreneurs, this would not only reduce the capital costs of PAC in building the facilities but would gear up the private sector for participation into projects of national importance. One institution that could be engaged by PAC and other defence industries of Pakistan is the University of Gujrat. It has the latest equipped Industrial Designing School within its campus already meeting the demands of industry in Sialkot, Gujranwala and Lahore etc.

Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt has given instructions to expedite the deletion program and expedite the export of both JF 17 and Mashshak Trainer aircraft. Chairman PAC is busy finding markets where these aircraft can be exported. It is also known that he is actively considering some new projects for PAC Kamra.

At the moment, PAC has some surplus capacity to manufacture high precision parts and electronics/avionics. This capacity must be fully utilized to the maximum potential. Some machines if do no produce a minimum quantity; they remain very expensive to produce the components. As a word of appreciation, PAC is producing note pads, ‘Takhti’ that have become quite popular in the market. These are affordable and cater for all the needs of a student or as a standby arrangement for any executive.

Today PAC stands at a threshold to take on more challenges and emerge in the world as a designer and builder of efficient and cost effective aircraft. It must develop small passenger aircraft both single and twin engine. Hopefully Pakistan itself is an emerging market but the vision must go beyond. In this field, maybe Pakistan also learn from Brazil that is the fourth largest manufacturer of aircraft in the world.

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## fatman17

Afghan aircraft which defected to pakistan during the 80s


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## fatman17

Second to none


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## fatman17

PAF museum a lovely place to visit

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## fatman17

CAA calibration aircraft


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## fatman17

The pilot making academy


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## fatman17

OBITUARY

An Airman Remembered

Columnist Rai Muhammad Saleh Azam remembers late AVM Abdul Razzaq.

The personal sacrifice of Pakistanis has been recounted repeatedly throughout the history of our nation. On occasion, amidst the gloom, we see flashes of personal sacrifice that shine so brightly, they become visible to us even through the darkness.
On the morning of 20 February 2003, a Pakistan Air Force Fokker F-27 of No. 12 VIP Squadron crashed over the Cherat Hills near the village of Taulanj Jadid, 27 km (17 miles) east of Kohat killing Air Chief Marshal Mushaf Ali Mir and 16 others. Among them were two of the PAF’s finest officers and fighter pilots – Air Vice Marshal Abdul Razzaq and Air Commodore Rizwanullah. Both were F-16 fighter pilots and former commanders of the PAF’s elite and internationally-acclaimed Combat Commanders School (CCS) at Sargodha. AVM Abdul Razzaq was one of the heroes of the PAF Afghan Air Operations during the 1980s. He was the elite of the elite – one of five fighter pilots of the PAF’s crack F-16 Squadrons who achieved officially recognized combat kills against Soviet/Afghan aircraft during the 10-year Soviet-Afghan War and wrote another glorious chapter in the history of the Pakistan Air Force.
Air Vice Marshal Abdul Razzaq was the epitome of a fighter pilot. Courageous and chivalrous. A soft-spoken gentleman on the ground, swift and deadly in the air. He was an archetypal fighter pilot, invigorated by the challenges of military service, the air force profession and fighter flying and possessed with an uncluttered sense of purpose to defend his country and his faith.
Abdul Razzaq was born on 25 November 1952 and belonged to Mianwali. He was commissioned in the General Duties (Pilot) branch of the PAF on 21 April 1973 in the 55th GD(P) course at the PAF Academy, Risalpur where he won the coveted Sword of Honour and the Trophy for Best Performance in Ground Subjects (the Best Pilot Trophy was suspended during the 40th-58th GD(P) courses, otherwise he may have bagged that as well).
Abdul Razzaq qualified at the Combat Commanders School, Sargodha, the PAF Staff College (now Air War College), Karachi and the National Defence College, Rawalpindi. During his 29-year career in the PAF, he held a number of key operational and staff appointments. In October 1985, he was appointed Officer Commanding (OC) of No. 9 Multi-Role Squadron – the “Griffins”. Between July 1988 and February 1989, Abdul Razzaq, then Wing Commander, served as OC, No. 14 Multi-Role Squadron – the “Tail Choppers”. Both squadrons, then equipped with F-16s, were the most coveted fighter squadrons in the PAF. From August 1992 to March 1994, Abdul Razzaq, then Group Captain, served as OC, Combat Commanders School – a post that testifies to the extraordinary fighter-flying skills of its occupier. He later served as Director Operations and Air Staff Officer in PAF’s Southern Air Command (SAC). In July 1988, Abdul Razzaq, then Air Commodore, was appointed Base Commander of PAF Masroor (Karachi). He also served as Personal Staff Officer to the Chief of the Air Staff. He was promoted to the rank of Air Vice Marshal on 30 November 2000.
Abdul Razzaq was one of the finest marksmen in the PAF. During one live firing exercise, he managed to put all his aircraft’s cannon rounds into the target’s bulls-eye. As often happens, some of his fellow aviators claimed that it was a mere fluke and challenged him to have another go. He silenced his critics by repeating the feat.
In December 1979, the Soviets invaded Afghanistan. The principal strategic objective of this move, as perceived by Pakistan, was the Soviet Union’s desire to gain access to the warm waters of the Indian Ocean and to control the strategic oil lanes emanating from the Persian Gulf. Overnight, Pakistan was faced with two hostile forces on both its eastern and western flanks. The Armed Forces of Pakistan had to take defensive measures to prepare for the worst-case scenario – a war on two fronts. The PAF, already occupied in tackling the air threat from the Indian Air Force in the east, rose to the challenge when it was called upon to defend the aerial frontiers of Pakistan from a new threat emanating from the west – Soviet airpower.
The PAF was tasked with undertaking Defensive Counter Air Operations, which meant that pilots and aircraft had to remain on ground alert around-the-clock and conduct continuous Combat Air Patrol (CAP) missions. PAF airbases were kept at the highest level of operational readiness. For the PAF, therefore, the tactical environment was not much different from a full-fledged war, which it undertook throughout the 1979-1988 Soviet-Afghan War in general and during the 1986-88 period in particular. 
Thus, for a decade, the PAF maintained a constant vigil on the western aerial frontiers of Pakistan. The battle-hardened No. 9 Squadron, then based at PAF Minhas (Kamra) was one of the squadrons detailed for this mission. It bore the bulk of PAF’s operations, particularly during the 1986-1988 period in which air activity over the Pak-Afghan border intensified. Despite being tasked with both operational and training commitments, No. 9 Squadron generated more effort than any other squadron in support of the operations in the western theatre. It flew 2,221 sorties totalling 3,702 hours, including numerous hot scrambles from PAF Sargodha. Consequently, the Squadron had the opportunity of making three enemy kills inside Pakistan: two Soviet Su-22 fighters and one Soviet Antonov An-26 Electronic Intelligence (ELINT) 
aircraft. 
During this period, No. 9 Squadron – comprising of 16 pilots and 6 section leaders – was ably commanded by Wing. Commander. Abdul Razzaq, Officer Commanding, who led from the front. The other five section leaders included Squadron. Leader. A. Hameed Qadri. The Squadron’s CAP activity drastically increased from February 1986, when the Soviets and their Afghan communist allies began bombing Mujahideen camps close to the Pakistan border and sometimes even inside Pakistan. The pilots of No. 9 Squadron continuously mounted CAPs in two-ship formations from dawn to dusk, in addition to providing air defence cover to Pakistan’s nuclear installations. Their mission was to shoot down any intruding aircraft – Afghan or Soviet – which intruded into Pakistani airspace. 
Strict Rules of Engagement (ROE), however, required PAF pilots to intercept only those intruders that remained within Pakistani airspace for one minute or ingressed into Pakistan up to 7 nautical miles (later reduced to 5 nm) and that too after acquiring permission from the ground controller, who himself had to seek clearance from up the chain of command – from the Sector Commander, Air Officer Commanding (Northern Air Command) to the Deputy Chief of the Air Staff (Operations). This sequence cost vital seconds and minutes allowing intruders to escape back into Afghan airspace. There was an added condition that the interception had to take place in such a manner that the wreckage of the intruding aircraft had to fall inside Pakistani territory – a result extremely difficult to ensure since the Soviets remained very close to the border whilst ingressing into Pakistani airspace. Hot pursuit across the border into Afghan airspace was not permitted – at least not officially – although on numerous occasions PAF F-16s did go in for hot pursuit. However, due to political reasons, the kills made inside Afghan airspace by the PAF (estimated to be between 20 and 30, were never officially recognized or disclosed. To date, PAF officially recognized only the eight kills made inside Pakistani airspace and one forced manoeuvre kill. Throughout the 10-year conflict, PAF pilots often found themselves in tactically advantageous positions with their radar auto-locking on the targets and on many occasions the pilots visually acquiring the targets in their Head-Up Displays (HUD). However, much to their frustration, our pilots could not convert these contacts into kills because permission was not granted due to the strict ROE. Had the ROE not been so stringent, the PAF would have, no doubt, achieved many more kills than it actually did.

On 30 March 1987, Wing Commander Abdul Razzaq and his wingman, Squadron Leader. Sikander Hayat, flying F-16As, were vectored towards two unidentified intruders by Squadron Leader Pervaiz Ali Khan, the ground-controller. These turned out to be Soviet aircraft – one of them being an Antonov An-26 ELINT aircraft - which had violated Pakistan’s airspace near Miranshah – and were heading towards a PAF radar position at Parachinar.

AVM Abdul Razzaq, in his own words, would later recall the encounter:
“ The vector given by the controllers started the flow of adrenaline. All the preparatory actions were over in less than 30 seconds. The bandits (two of them) were reported close to Parachinar; another 30-40 miles had to be covered. Soon the controller reported that now only one bandit was violating the border. The second had turned away. When I brought the target into the TD [Target Designator] box at 3-4 NM [nautical miles], I realized that it was a slow moving, larger aircraft. I asked for permission to shoot, which was quickly given. With an overtake rate of well over 200 knots and a low IR [Infra-Red] signature; the minimum range cue was lying close to 4,000 feet. Effectively, I had no more than 1.5 second firing window available. Everything worked as conceived and with the press of the button, the missile was on its way. As I was breaking off, I saw the missile impact the target. No. 2 also released his missile, which also impacted the target. The enemy aircraft crashed on the snow-clad mountains below.”
In this classic ground-controlled interception (GCI), Wing. Commander Razzaq used an AIM-9 Sidewinder infrared homing air-to-air missile to score the kill. According to Russian sources, all 39 Soviet and Afghan military personnel on board the An-26 were killed. Wing Commander. Abdul Razzaq did an outstanding job of remaining cool, focused and skilful during the GCI. He had no hesitation, in the prevalent wartime conditions, to shoot down the Soviet military aircraft, which was violating Pakistan’s airspace.
The PAF was the second air force in the world to put the F-16 into combat and Wg. Cdr. Abdul Razzaq became the second PAF pilot to score a combat kill with an F-16 – the first being one of his section leaders, Squadron Leader 
A. Hameed Qadri, who had earlier shot down two Soviet Su-22 fighters in a single sortie on 17 May 1986. Air Commodore A. Hameed Qadri was himself killed in the line of duty on 19 July 2002 when an F-7P fighter he was flying crashed soon after take off from Kamra. Thus, within a span of a year, the PAF has lost two of the five pilots who achieved officially recognized air-to-air combat kills against the Soviet/Afghan air forces during the Afghan air campaign. If we include Air Commodore Rizwanullah, who also died in the Kohat crash, the Combat Commanders School has lost three of its former commanding officers in the same period. All three were potential Air Chief material.
Air Vice Marshal Abdul Razzaq, SI(M), TI(M), SBt, was a Pakistani hero who walked in the tradition of the many heroes of the PAF before him. He and others like Air Chief Marshal Mushaf Ali Mir, Air Commodores Rizwanullah and A. Hameed Qadri renew our faith in Pakistan. We are indebted to these airmen who gave their life serving their country and for their loyal and honourable service. 
At the time of his death, Air Vice Marshal Abdul Razzaq was serving as Deputy Chief of the Air Staff (Training) at Air Headquarters, Chaklala, which required him to commute between Islamabad and Kohat – a major PAF training establishment – on a regular basis. He was laid to rest in his ancestral village near Mianwali on 21 February 2003. He left behind a widow, two sons and two daughters.

ABOUT THE AUTHOR
The writer is a lawyer and defence analyst. 
E-mail: airdefence@yahoo.com

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## fatman17

Adressing 45th CCS


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## nomi007

*Royal Pakistan Air Force*
*



*

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## fatman17

Interesting


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## black-hawk_101

Any Possibility of PAF getting more used F-16s Block-15 from US and some new ones too?


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## fatman17

black-hawk_101 said:


> Any Possibility of PAF getting more used F-16s Block-15 from US and some new ones too?



Yes

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## razgriz19

fatman17 said:


> Interesting



we need these for fighter conversion after the training on K-8
That's one of things analysts were discussing that should JF-17 trainer take over the role or should we get dedicated trainers like T-50 Golden Eagles


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## air marshal

*China may export J-10B fighters with Russian engines*
July 5, 2015

China may export its J-10B fighter equipped with the Russian-built AL31FN-S3 engine to Pakistan and other potential buyers from Asia, Latin America and Africa in the near future, writes the Kanwa Defense Review, a Chinese-language military magazine based in CANADA.

Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group last year began the mass production of the J-10B fighters. A total of 14 of the jets have already been painted with PLA Air Force markings and turned over to the military while at least 10 aircraft are undergoing test flights. Kanwa said the PLA Air Force will eventually commission 24 J-10Bs to form a fighter regiment before the end of the year.

Designed as the upgraded version of the J-10 fighter, the J-10B is the first domestically designed aircraft fitted with a diverterless supersonic inlet to shield the engine compressor blades from radar waves. The article also noticed that new electronic warfare systems can also been in front of the canards and atop the vertical stabilizer. With infra-red search and track sensors, the aircraft can also carry out reconnaissance operations.

Russia has agreed to sell advanced AL31FN engines to China to improve the J-10B's power systems and the first batch of the engines is expected this year. This will increase the life of the aircraft from the J-10A's 500 flight hours to the J-10B's 750 hours. As China begins to introduce more Russian engines in the future, all J-10B aircraft will be fitted with the AL31FN.

China may export J-10B fighters with Russian engines｜WCT


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## fatman17

Also reported by DID. 

China may look to export its J-10B fighter to Pakistan, with the Pakistanis previously expressing interest in the J-10 several years ago. Manufacturer Chengdu Aerospace Corporation began mass production of the J-10B last year , which uses Russian-produced AL31FN-S3 engines. The Chinese firm is looking to develop its own turbofan engine, the Shenyang WS 10B, in order to sidestep Russian objections to international exports. Pakistan and China jointly developed the JF-17 Thunder fighter, with this recently gaining its first export customer , likely Myanmar


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## fatman17

These reports are not always correct


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## fatman17

Major IAF bases


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## GURU DUTT

fatman17 said:


> Major IAF bases


so what can or you are planning to do about them

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## fatman17

GURU DUTT said:


> so what can or you are planning to do about them



It's for me to know and you to find out. Chill


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## GURU DUTT

fatman17 said:


> It's for me to know and you to find out. Chill


so what did you know about them ?

or what was the point of giving a picture of the same in this thread how does it helps PAF


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## RAMPAGE

GURU DUTT said:


> so what can or you are planning to do about them


What we always do. Bomb the shit out of them.


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## GURU DUTT

RAMPAGE said:


> What we always do. Bomb the shit out of them.


are u sure you have the capabillity of doing the same this time without being beaten black and blue and dragged around like a worn owt shoe

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## P.K.

RAMPAGE said:


> What we always do. Bomb the shit out of them.


Both Indians and Pakistanis bomb the shit out of each other country in their dreams


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## RAMPAGE

GURU DUTT said:


> are u sure you have the capabillity of doing the same this time without being beaten black and blue and dragged around like a worn owt shoe


BC pehle toilet bana le phir larne k khuaab dekhin.


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## GURU DUTT

RAMPAGE said:


> BC pehle toilet bana le phir larne k khuaab dekhin.


nanhe miya masoom lagta hai tumne "NIRMAL BHARAT ABHIYAN" &"SWACHH BHARAT ABHIYAN " ke barre me nahi sunna khair janne do 

per nanhe miya pehle aap "kashkol ko to tor lo"  

fir time mill jaye to aake aap pane khwaab bhi poore ker lena


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## Gandhi follower

RAMPAGE said:


> What we always do. Bomb the shit out of them.



American drones


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## HRK

GURU DUTT said:


> so what can or you are planning to do about them



Don't you worry .... we have our arrangements in place .....

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## RAMPAGE

GURU DUTT said:


> per nanhe miya pehle aap "kashkol tor lo"


Abe moti laal pehle apna kashko dekh. hamare sai kafi jiaada bara he.


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## GURU DUTT

HRK said:


> Don't you worry .... we have our arrangements in place .....


kya baat hai mai sadke 








RAMPAGE said:


> Abe moti laal pehle apna kashko dekh. hamare sai kafi jiaada bara he.


^^^ 

jab baat ka jwaab nahi milla to aa gaye apni aukat me tum ... kyon haina


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## HRK

GURU DUTT said:


> kya baat hai mai sadke
> 
> View attachment 235432



No this is the actual 'MAI SADKE' scenario ....


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## GURU DUTT

HRK said:


> No this is the actual 'MAI SADKE' scenario ....
> 
> View attachment 235434


haaiin aapko nawaabi shaowk hain saeen ji


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## fatman17

PAF officers promoted

City Islamabad

The government has promoted Air Vice Marshal Asad Abdur Rehman Khan Lodhi and Air Vice Marshal Muhammad Iqbal to the rank of Air Marshal and Air Commodore Salman Ahsan Bukhari, Air Commodore Rizwan Pasha, Air Commodore Usaid-Ur-Rehman Usmani, Air Commodore Syed Noman Ali, Air Commodore Zaheer Ahmad Babar, and Air Commodore Javad Saeed, to the rank of Air Vice Marshal.

Air Marshal Asad Abdur Rehman Khan Lodhi was commissioned in GD (P) Branch of PAF in March, 1982, Air Marshal Muhammad Iqbal in June, 1982 and Air Vice Marshal Salman Ahsan Bukhari in November, 1985.

Air Vice Marshal Rizwan Pasha was commissioned in Engineering Branch of Pakistan Air Force in January, 1985, Air Vice Marshal Usaid-Ur-Rehman Usmani , Air Vice Marshal Syed Noman Ali and Air Vice Marshal Zaheer Ahmad Babar in April, 1986.

Air Vice Marshal Javad Saeed was commissioned in GD (P) Branch of PAF in November, 1986.


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## fatman17

China's J-10B Fighter Aircraft To Enter Export Market

defenseworld.net - 7/7/2015

China could possibly export its J-10B fighter to Pakistan, Asia, Latin America and Africa. Russia has agreed for a deal to sell its advanced AL31FN engines which will be fitted to the J-10B, Kanwa defense review reported Sunday adding that the first batch of the engines is expected this year.

See the full article at defenseworld.net


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## fatman17

China's J-10B Fighter Aircraft To Enter Export Market

Source : Our Bureau ~ Dated : Monday, July 6, 2015 

China could possibly export its J-10B fighter to Pakistan, Asia, Latin America and Africa.

Russia has agreed for a deal to sell its advanced AL31FN engines which will be fitted to the J-10B, Kanwa defense review reported Sunday adding that the first batch of the engines is expected this year.

The Russian engines will increase the life of the aircraft from the J-10A's 500 flight hours to the J-10B's 750 hours. As China will introduce more Russian engines in the future, all J-10B aircraft will be fitted with the AL31FN.

The upgraded version of the J-10 fighter, the J-10B is the first domestically designed aircraft fitted with a diverterless supersonic inlet to shield the engine compressor blades from radar waves.

The medium-scale 3.5-generation J-10B fighter has a maximum take-off weight of 19 tons, a bomb load between 6 and 8 tons, a combat radius of about 1,000 kilometres and a flight speed between 1 and 1.5 mach. It is equipped with an active phased-array radar and capable of carrying air-to-air missiles.

The aircraft can also carry out reconnaissance operations with infra-red search and track sensors.

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## fatman17

The much improved J10B

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## fatman17

The future


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## fatman17

If the deal formalises it will be for 18 aircraft initially


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## fatman17

Lady Furies


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## WaLeEdK2

fatman17 said:


> If the deal formalises it will be for 18 aircraft initially


Which aircraft? J-10b?


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## Donatello

fatman17 said:


> If the deal formalises it will be for 18 aircraft initially



No F-16s?


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## fatman17

WaLeEdK2 said:


> Which aircraft? J-10b?



Correct


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## fatman17

Donatello said:


> No F-16s?



Yaar China wishes it could sell F16s


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## fatman17

Each PAF base has a SAR detachment / squadron


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## fatman17

As well as multi purpose Mi 17s


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## fatman17

Just a nice pic or 2


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## fatman17

Update on our frenemy on the western border. 

Afghan Airforce Attack capabilities

The source said the AAF possesses eight fully operational Mil Mi-35 ‘Hind’ attack helicopters, although a US Department of Defense (DoD) report on Afghanistan published in June refers to only five platforms.

IHS Jane’s reported in June 2013 that a number of AAF Mi-35s attack helicopters had been fitted with twin-barrelled Gryazev-Shipunov GSh-23 guns, S-5 57 mm rocket pods, and YakB 12.7 mm chin-mounted machine guns. The Mi-35 gunships are based at Kabul but can be deployed to the provinces, said the source.

The IHS Jane’s source added that the AAF had fitted some Mi-17 transport helicopters with a mix of Russian DShK 12.7 mm and US-made heavy machine guns. While AAF spokesman Colonel Mohammad Bahadur confirmed the arming of Mi-17s, he said they have been fitted with Gryazev-Shipunov heavy machine guns.

The US DoD’s June 2015 report said 10 out of 56 Mi-17s have been fitted with fixed forward-firing guns and that two more will be similarly configured, while other sources suggest some Mi-17s are fitted with door guns. The source further claimed that each of the six ANA corps has two armed Mi-17s at its disposal.

Although the source stated that AAF attacks with Mi-35s or Mi-17s are very effective, he cautioned that such operations are not conventional airstrikes but are more improvised attacks.

Two Taliban spokesmen, Zabihullah Mujahed and Qari Yusuf Ahmadi, told IHS Jane’s that attempted airstrikes against the insurgents had taken place but were not a major problem as the Taliban had anti-aircraft guns. Mujahed claimed the Taliban possess “many” examples of the ZIKO Yak – a local term referring to Russian KPV 14.5 mm heavy machine guns or ZPU anti-aircraft guns based on the KPV – as well as DShK 12.7 mm heavy machine guns and that they had shot down six AAF helicopters since the beginning of the 2015 spring offensive in late April.

While there have been reports that the insurgency has ZIKO Yaks and DShKs, there have been no reports of downed helicopters and the insurgents’ anti-aircraft capabilities seem to be limited.

Despite developments in airstrike capabilities, it has to be noted that AAF officers have previously said the AAF still lacks sufficient airstrike platforms. A source within the ANA special forces agreed with this assessment, saying they received close air support from foreign aircraft but not the AAF.


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## fatman17

Any news on this. Has it been deployed.


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## Donatello

fatman17 said:


> Yaar China wishes it could sell F16s



No, i mean, there is a request pending for more F-16s......why would PAF go for a third type then?


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## RAMPAGE

fatman17 said:


> Any news on this. Has it been deployed.


LOL nice joke.


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## TOPGUN

fatman17 said:


> If the deal formalises it will be for 18 aircraft initially


 

Is this really in the works ??


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## mingle

fatman17 said:


> If the deal formalises it will be for 18 aircraft initially


Fatman sir means era of F 16s is over .


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## TOPGUN

mingle said:


> Fatman sir means era of F 16s is over .


 
Actually, the f-16 era is not over yet I can tell you that much PAF still wants to get their hands on more vipers from what I understand it just might not be 18 more blk 52's and may end up being 18 J-10B as Fatman stated .


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## Thorough Pro

Probably the project was abandoned a while back.



fatman17 said:


> Any news on this. Has it been deployed.


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## mingle

TOPGUN said:


> Actually, the f-16 era is not over yet I can tell you that much PAF still wants to get their hands on more vipers from what I understand it just might not be 18 more blk 52's and may end up being 18 J-10B as Fatman stated .


Thanks that what I meant .may not be new ones but used airframe may be but if we start fc20 to induct then number will not be 18 will go up down the road .


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## fatman17

mingle said:


> Fatman sir means era of F 16s is over .



Not necessarily. Just have to wait for the right moment to strike such deals e.g Cobra AH1Z deal


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## fatman17

TOPGUN said:


> Is this really in the works ??



I always felt that the stumbling block in any J10B deal was the export permission for the engine. Now it appears that Russia has granted the export permit coupled with the progress on the WS 10B engine makes this an interesting situation.

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## Quwa

fatman17 said:


> If the deal formalises it will be for 18 aircraft initially


I don't think PAF will order J-10B. It has already set up the infrastructure for the Block-52+, it's likely that any new fighter would likely be the still floating option for 18 more. Not to mention surplus F-16s

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## fatman17

Mark Sien said:


> I don't think PAF will order J-10B. It has already set up the infrastructure for the Block-52+, it's likely that any new fighter would likely be the still floating option for 18 more. Not to mention surplus F-16s



One source indicated that the Pentagon / State Department feel getting congressional approval for F16s at this time could be difficult.


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## Quwa

fatman17 said:


> One source indicated that the Pentagon / State Department feel getting congressional approval for F16s at this time could be difficult.


To be honest there are times when congress can be whipped into approving something against the house of representives' immediate interests. U.S strategic interests absolutely require that the bridge in Pakistan be maintained, and a key pillar of that bridge is the F-16. If the U.S fails at maintaining that bridge, then that's it, they'll begin losing the support of their Pakistan interlocutors in no time. If you back U.S and not F-16s, then it means you're giving the U.S everything, and getting absolutely nothing in returns, "peanuts" ...

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## Donatello

fatman17 said:


> One source indicated that the Pentagon / State Department feel getting congressional approval for F16s at this time could be difficult.



That is very surprising, considering J-10B already brings a better overall package to Pakistan, i.e. AESA and IRST that even the BLK52s lack.....so if Pakistan is denied the F-16s it can go elsewhere, and that is a couple of billion USD loss for the US manufacturer. However, that aside, how the heck did they approve the AH-1Z.....since that is something that Pakistan clearly does not possess....along with 1000 Hellfires, knowing very well those are not for the talibunnies........and the word is that they have request 20 more AH-1Zs for a potential later order.

Whatever the case, another couple of squadrons of a medium fighter is surely needed....whether F-16s or J-10Bs....it's just that J-10Bs give you the infinite possibility to upgrade and use them as you want.
Imagine twin or triple mounted cruise missiles on that thing!!!!


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## fatman17

Mark Sien said:


> To be honest there are times when congress can be whipped into approving something against the house of representives' immediate interests. U.S strategic interests absolutely require that the bridge in Pakistan be maintained, and a key pillar of that bridge is the F-16. If the U.S fails at maintaining that bridge, then that's it, they'll begin losing the support of their Pakistan interlocutors in no time. If you back U.S and not F-16s, then it means you're giving the U.S everything, and getting absolutely nothing in returns, "peanuts" ...



If the funds are available as they seem to be, Pakistani govt should have exercised / picked up the pending option as a top priority I would have thought but all is quiet on this particular front. All F16s in the past were purchased by Pakistan sovereign funds except the MLU was a FMS / grant aid.


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## fatman17

Name of Aircraft
Tenure

A-5
1983 To Date


AERO-COMMANDER
1966 - 1968


ALOUETTE-III
1967 To Date


ATTACKER
1950 - 1956


AUSTER
1947 - 1961


B-56
1966 - 1969


B-57
1957 - 1988


BOEING 707
1986 To Date


BRISTOL FREIGHTER
1949 - 1966


CN-235
2001 To Date


Citation XL
2005 To Date

DAKOTA
1947 - 1955

DOVE
1949 - 1961

F-16
1983 To Date

F-6
1966 - 2002

F-7P
1990 To Date

DA-20 FALCON
1973 To Date

F-27 FOKKER
1965 To Date

HALIFAX
1948 - 1954

HARVARD T-6G
1947 - 1975

MI-17
1967 To Date

HERCULES C-130
1963 To Date

KARAKORUM-8
1995 To Date

MIRAGE
1968 To Date

MUSHSHAK MFI-17
1974 To Date

T-33
1955 - 1993

F-86 SABRE
1956 - 1979

F-104 STAR FIGHTER
1961 - 1972

T-37
1962 To Date

TEMPEST
1947 - 1956

TIGER MOTH
1947 - 1957

TRIDENT
1967 - 1967

VIKING
1948 - 1960

VISCOUNT
1956 - 1968

Y-12
1996 To Date

JF-17 THUNDER
2005 To Date

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## fatman17

PAKISTAN AIR FORCE BASES =4
There are roughly 30 airfields at which Pakistani nuclear-equiped aircraft could be based, vastly complicating Indian counterforce attack planning.

* Major Operational Bases are fully functional bases from which aircraft operate during peacetime.

* Forward Operational Bases are active during peacetime and become fully operational during wartime. 

* Satellite bases are used for emergency landing and recovery of aircraft during both peacetime and wartime. 

Airbase Locale Type Squadron Command Aircraft AC # 

PAF Bhagtanwala sat 
PAF Chaklala MOB 
PAF Chander sat 
PAF Chuk Jhumra sat 
PAF Faisal Karachi MOB 
PAF Gwadar sat 
PAF Kohat sat 
PAF Lahore Lahore FOB 
PAF Masroor MOB 
PAF Mianwali MOB 
PAF Minhas Kamra MOB 
PAF Mirpur Khas FOB 
PAF Multan Multan FOB 
PAF Murid FOB 
PAF Nawabshah FOB 
PAF Ormara sat 
PAF Pasni FOB 
PAF Peshawar Peshawar MOB 
PAF Rafiqui Shorkot MOB 
PAF Rahim Yar Khan sat 
PAF Rajanpur sat 
PAF Risalewala FaisalabadFOB 
PAF Risalpur MOB 
PAF Samungli Quetta MOB 
PAF Sargodha Sargodha MOB 
PAF Shahbaz JacobabadMOB 
PAF Sindhri sat 
PAF Sukkur FOB 
PAF Talhar FOB 
PAF Vihari FOB

SOURCE: * PAF Bases PAF Organization & Structure Pakistan Institute for Air Defence Studies.

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## HRK

fatman17 said:


> MLU was a FMS / grant aid.



Sir jee partially paid by FMF /grants (I think 35% or 40% )
=========================================
EDIT: its 53%.

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## Quwa

fatman17 said:


> If the funds are available as they seem to be, Pakistani govt should have exercised / picked up the pending option as a top priority I would have thought but all is quiet on this particular front. All F16s in the past were purchased by Pakistan sovereign funds except the MLU was a FMS / grant aid.


Funding is a lot tighter than it seems. Most of the PAF's resources at this time are concentrated in pushing the JF-17 program to completion (in terms of current PAF requirements). But as the PAF completes its induction of JF-17, we'll see it talk more about another fighter, and I am 90% sure the F-16 is at the top of the list.

In the late 1980s the PAF set its F-16 requirement at around 100 active fighters, so it is still a squadron short of the aim: We could either see the optional 18 exercised or 18-22 surplus airframes requested. For kicks, I'd start inquiring about Iraq's F-16s too, at the rate things are going there might not be an Iraq for those F-16s to serve.

Ideally, I think the PAF should build a fleet of around 150 F-16s, of which at least 55 (3 squadrons) should be new-built fighters. The rest should be split between the current A/Bs and other surplus airframes, ideally C/D that are upgraded to Block-52 standards.

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## fatman17

Mark Sien said:


> Funding is a lot tighter than it seems. Most of the PAF's resources at this time are concentrated in pushing the JF-17 program to completion (in terms of current PAF requirements). But as the PAF completes its induction of JF-17, we'll see it talk more about another fighter, and I am 90% sure the F-16 is at the top of the list.
> 
> In the late 1980s the PAF set its F-16 requirement at around 100 active fighters, so it is still a squadron short of the aim: We could either see the optional 18 exercised or 18-22 surplus airframes requested. For kicks, I'd start inquiring about Iraq's F-16s too, at the rate things are going there might not be an Iraq for those F-16s to serve.
> 
> Ideally, I think the PAF should build a fleet of around 150 F-16s, of which at least 55 (3 squadrons) should be new-built fighters. The rest should be split between the current A/Bs and other surplus airframes, ideally C/D that are upgraded to Block-52 standards.



Sounds ideal but stranger things have happened. I am a supporter of the F16 program sanctions and all and would love to see a fleet of 110 F16s (original plan).

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## fatman17

3 ship F16 formation


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## pakfighter

I LISTN ON TV AT NEWS THAT PAKISTAN IS GOING TO BUY SU-35 FROM RUSSIA ALONG WITH HELICOPTERS ????????

DO ANY BODY CLEAR ME


PAKFIGHTER


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## ACE OF THE AIR

pakfighter said:


> I LISTN ON TV AT NEWS THAT PAKISTAN IS GOING TO BUY SU-35 FROM RUSSIA ALONG WITH HELICOPTERS ????????
> 
> DO ANY BODY CLEAR ME
> 
> 
> PAKFIGHTER


fake news ...


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## MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n

fatman17 said:


> If the deal formalises it will be for 18 aircraft initially


seems like u know something solid ?


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## ACE OF THE AIR

fatman17 said:


> If the deal formalises it will be for 18 aircraft initially


These are from the existing stocks?


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## fatman17

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> These are from the existing stocks?



New aircraft


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## Blue Marlin

fatman17 said:


> If the deal formalises it will be for 18 aircraft initially


actually no its for 36 and the price 1.4 billion thats about 38 million a peace not bad as a rafale is 100 million+


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## fatman17

FC-31 Gyrfalcon


The FC-31 (Project 310) 01 prototype was approaching the SAC airfield after its successful maiden flight on October 31, 2012. A scale-down model (F-60) of FC-31was first unveiled by the 601 Institute at the first International UAV Innovation Grand Prix held in Beijing in September 2011. It was first rumored in April 2011 that 601/SAC was developing a 4th generation medium multi-role stealth fighter as Project 310 since 2007 after its own heavy stealth fighter design lost the bid to 611/CAC's J-20(see above). The aircraft has a conventional design with twin engines and two large canted trapezoidal tailfins similar to American F-22. As the result the ventral stabilizing fins are eliminated to save weight and reduce RCS. In addition it features DSIs, two piece canopy and a pentagon shaped nose similar to F-35. A Russian K-36D ejection seat was also installed. Like J-20, a retractable IFR probe could be installed on the starboard side slightly forward of the canopy. A similar EOTS might be installed under the nose in the future. As a 4th generation fighter FC-31is expected to be equipped with advanced avionics such as an AESA radar and a wide-angle holographic HUD. The prototype is expected initially to be powered by the 8.5t class RD-93/WS-13A turbofan (without TVC) but later by the new 9.5t class "Medium Thrust" engine (WS-19? might feature 2D TVC). The RD-93 engine nozzles on the prototype initially appeared without any stealth measures applied. However they are partially shielded by the two horizontal tailfins extending rearward, similar to F-35, thus reduces the IR and radar signatures.FC-31 features a single internal weapon bay inside its belly housing up to 4 AAMs including PL-10, PL-12, PL-15 and PL-21. It may also be able to carry the larger YJ-83K AshM and YJ-91 ARM externally. However due to its relatively small size and lower engine thrust compared to J-20, FC-31 might suffer from either a limited internal payload or a shorter combat radius. It is not expected to have the super-cruise capability initially either when it is powered by RD-93. However it does carry a relatively cheaper price tag and a relatively "balanced" performance. Some specifications (speculated): length 16.9m, height 4.8m, wingspan 11.5m, normal TO wight 17.5t, combat radius 1,250km with internal fuel, max level speed Mach 1.8, TO distance 400m. A full-scale metal model was probably built in early 2011. One airframe was transported to the 623 Institute in Yanliang for static tests in June 2012. The first prototype was under construction since late 2011. Its first flight took place on October 31, 2012, powered by two smoky RD-93 turbofans. So far only a single prototype was constructed for test flights. As a private venture of AVIC, FC-31 (dubbed AFC/Advanced Fighter Concept) is expected to be promoted at the international market as a low-cost alternative to American F-35. Therefore it could have some negative impact on the prospects of FC-1/JF-17 in 7-10 years. Its first foreign customer is likely to be Pakistani AF. As for the domestic market, it appears to be a good candidate to replace some of the remaining J-7/8 series fighters still in service with PLAAF and PLAN, together with the 3.5th generation J-10B/Cand J-11D. It was rumored that FC-31 could compete with the other stealth fighter design from 611 Institute for the next generation PLAN carrier-based stealth fighter but this has not been confirmed. FC-31 was partially unveiled at 2012 Zhuhai Airshow as an "advanced fighter concept". Recent images (December 2013) suggested that FC-31 is testing a new silver color "stealth" nozzle similar to those onboard J-20. The second prototype which could feature "major" improvements in order to meet PLAAF's requirements is anticipated to fly by 2016. They might include a one-piece canopy, domestic WS-13A turbofan engines with new stealth nozzles, an EOTS (EOTS-86?) under the nose, retractable IFR probeon the starboard side, a slightly longer and fatter fuselage, reshaped F-35 style vertical tailfins and cropped wing tips and tailfin tips similar to those of F-22.

- Last Updated 7/13/15


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## fatman17

Pakistan Expands Lockheed Martin Sniper Advanced Targeting Pod Fleet

Lockheed Martin - 7/15/2015

ORLANDO, Fla., July 14, 2015 – Lockheed Martin (NYSE: LMT) received a follow-on foreign military sale contract to produce and upgrade Sniper® Advanced Targeting Pods (ATP) for the Pakistan Air Force’s F-16 fleet. The contract includes the production of 15 Sniper ATPs and upgrades to the Pakistan Air Force’s existing 22 Sniper ATPs.

To meet the Pakistan Air Force’s urgent operational need, pod deliveries will begin in late 2015. Upgrades, which will increase compatibility with the aircraft and enable enhanced features, will also begin in late 2015.

“Sniper ATP has supported the Pakistan Air Force’s mission since 2010,” said Rich Lovette, Sniper international program director at Lockheed Martin Missiles and Fire Control. “Additional Sniper ATPs and upgrades will give the Pakistan Air Force a more robust precision targeting capability to support the nation’s security requirements.”

Sniper ATP provides pilots high-resolution imagery for precision targeting, surveillance and reconnaissance missions. Sniper ATP detects, identifies, automatically tracks and laser designates small tactical targets at long ranges. It also supports employment of all laser and GPS-guided weapons against multiple fixed and moving targets.

Sniper ATP is interoperable across multiple platforms, including U.S. Air Force and multi-national F-15, F-16, F-18, A-10, B-1 and B-52 aircraft.


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## fatman17

Sniper pod


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## hammad azhar

pakfighter said:


> I LISTN ON TV AT NEWS THAT PAKISTAN IS GOING TO BUY SU-35 FROM RUSSIA ALONG WITH HELICOPTERS ????????
> 
> DO ANY BODY CLEAR ME
> 
> 
> PAKFIGHTER


Yes they have offered us to buy SU-35 while nawaz was in russia but right now we r not in a condition to buy that expensive jet


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## fatman17

Pakistan to take 15 extra Sniper targeting pods for F-16s

By: GREG WALDRON

SINGAPORE

Source: Flightglobal.com


Lockheed Martin will supply Pakistan with 15 Sniper advanced targeting pods (ATP), and upgrade 22 units already in service aboard Pakistan Lockheed Martin F-16 fleet.

The work was awarded through a the US government’s Foreign Military Sales mechanism, says Lockheed.

“To meet the Pakistan air force’s urgent operational need, pod deliveries will begin in late 2015,” the company says. “Upgrades, which will increase compatibility with the aircraft and enable enhanced features, will also begin in late 2015.”

According to Lockheed, the Sniper ATP “provides high-resolution imagery for precision targeting, surveillance and reconnaissance missions.”

Pakistan’s air force has been increasingly active in recent years, attacking insurgent positions in the west of the country.

Flightglobal’s MiliCAS database shows that Pakistan operates 45 F-16A/B fighters.


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## fatman17

hammad azhar said:


> Yes they have offered us to buy SU-35 while nawaz was in russia but right now we r not in a condition to buy that expensive jet



Just rumour mongering


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## Donatello

fatman17 said:


> Sniper pod



Any air to air images available of the Sniper pod while in the IRST mode?


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## Usman Ali 1999

hammad azhar said:


> Yes they have offered us to buy SU-35 while nawaz was in russia but right now we r not in a condition to buy that expensive jet


Why not......we should buy that as indians are buying advanced rafale ......



pakfighter said:


> I LISTN ON TV AT NEWS THAT PAKISTAN IS GOING TO BUY SU-35 FROM RUSSIA ALONG WITH HELICOPTERS ????????
> 
> DO ANY BODY CLEAR ME
> 
> 
> PAKFIGHTER


search this link : Nga có thể bán Su-35 cho người bạn đáng tin cậy nhất của TQ | Quân sự | soha.vn


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## Thorough Pro

Original plan of 110 was about a decade ago, in the current scenario we should have a minimum of 150, 200 would be best.



fatman17 said:


> Sounds ideal but stranger things have happened. I am a supporter of the F16 program sanctions and all and would love to see a fleet of 110 F16s (original plan).


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## Quwa

Thorough Pro said:


> Original plan of 110 was about a decade ago, in the current scenario we should have a minimum of 150, 200 would be best.


Yep ... 110 F-16A/Bs and 54-72 Block-52+/V would be nice.

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## Donatello

Thorough Pro said:


> Original plan of 110 was about a decade ago, in the current scenario we should have a minimum of 150, 200 would be best.


That was 110 F-16s, about 10 for attrition so full force of 100 units. But at that time PAF wanted the F-16 to be the brute force backed up by Mirage and F-6s/F7(later)

Now you have much superior JF-17....so technically you can have two backbones.....100 F-16s (more the better of course) and 150-200 JF-17s.

The key is to have a minimum 300 unit fleet with HOBS missiles....and some with AESA

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## fatman17

Good options. Need cash mates for western war materials. For Chinese war materials soft loans are available payable in 10 to 15 years.


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## Thorough Pro

I don't think we'll get to 54-72 block 52's, at most may be 18 more remainder should come from used earlier blocks with MLU upgrades. I hope our economy improves and WOT comes to an end ASAP as it too is a big drain on resources 



Mark Sien said:


> Yep ... 110 F-16A/Bs and 54-72 Block-52+/V would be nice.


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## mingle

Thorough Pro said:


> I don't think we'll get to 54-72 block 52's, at most may be 18 more remainder should come from used earlier blocks with MLU upgrades. I hope our economy improves and WOT comes to an end ASAP as it too is a big drain on resources


Why not borrow money from ishaq dar and NS both can buy 50 block 52 from theior own pockets .


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## Thorough Pro

The only plane in our arsenal that can be used for a deep strike inside enemy territory on its own, or that can pose a worthy challenge to enemy heavy's is F-16 and with the deadly A2A's these days there is going to be heavy attrition on both sides, assuming 50% losses in all encounters on both sides, 100 would prove to be too small a number, hence the reason for my stated strength of 150-200.

Thunders are without any doubt much more capable than the Mirages and F-7's, but I don't think in their current form can be used on their own for deep strikes without protection from F-16's considering what the enemy would throw at them to intercept. Four to five more years for the Thunders to mature and evolve with possibly a better engine and more internal fuel then they would be able to face any challenge on their own. 





Donatello said:


> That was 110 F-16s, about 10 for attrition so full force of 100 units. But at that time PAF wanted the F-16 to be the brute force backed up by Mirage and F-6s/F7(later)
> 
> Now you have much superior JF-17....so technically you can have two backbones.....100 F-16s (more the better of course) and 150-200 JF-17s.
> 
> The key is to have a minimum 300 unit fleet with HOBS missiles....and some with AESA



there is no need to go on different tangents.



mingle said:


> Why not borrow money from ishaq dar and NS both can buy 50 block 52 from theior own pockets .

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## fatman17

What is the PAF equivalent of the Hydra 70 air to ground rockets


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## Lightning Soul

Thorough Pro said:


> I don't think we'll get to 54-72 block 52's, at most may be 18 more remainder should come from used earlier blocks with MLU upgrades. I hope our economy improves and WOT comes to an end ASAP as it too is a big drain on resources


What I have read that initial acquisition request for 72 Block 52's was made back in 2005-6 which got approved by congress but then the order was cut down to 36 and furthermore to only 18 Block 52's due to shortage of funds after the earthquake. So does that mean that PAF could still opt for remaining 54 Block 52's ?


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## araz

Lightning Soul said:


> What I have read that initial acquisition request for 72 Block 52's was made back in 2005-6 which got approved by congress but then the order was cut down to 36 and furthermore to only 18 Block 52's due to shortage of funds after the earthquake. So does that mean that PAF could still opt for remaining 54 Block 52's ?


I think even the 18 would now require congressional approval as the time for utilizing the facility may have elapsed.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

araz said:


> I think even the 18 would now require congressional approval as the time for utilizing the facility may have elapsed.


It is very difficult to get the approval now...Though there is an other way but that too requires Presidential order...


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## fatman17

Key outtakes from ACMs visit to China 
1 . modifications on JF17 prototype PT5 
2. JF17 simulator update 
3. Detailed briefing on J31 stealth fighter.

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## araz

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> It is very difficult to get the approval now...Though there is an other way but that too requires Presidential order...


The question really is whether it is now really a need for the 16s to the extent that we bend over for them. AESA is going to go on next batch of JFT and be operational in 2018-19. The Chinese pods will eventually reach maturity and other vendors aill come out with comparable products in 2-5 yrs. So why do we need the 16s. How relevant will they be in 2025. People here are harping on about deep sstrikes. Believe me there wont be àny deep strikes with aircrafts and missiles would be far more cheaper and much more accurate way of destroying enemy targets throughout India and indeed Pakistan.It would be much more prudent to do so then send assets and men on a suicidal mission. So acquisition sequence will probably be continue with JFT continue picking up a couple of squadrons of 16s as they come along 2016-8 but not pin too much hope if theyy dont havee J10s/11/6s as our security in case we desperately need more planes for the hi part of Hi lo combo


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## fatman17

Remembrance of our heros


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## razgriz19

araz said:


> The question really is whether it is now really a need for the 16s to the extent that we bend over for them. AESA is going to go on next batch of JFT and be operational in 2018-19. The Chinese pods will eventually reach maturity and other vendors aill come out with comparable products in 2-5 yrs. So why do we need the 16s. How relevant will they be in 2025. People here are harping on about deep sstrikes. Believe me there wont be àny deep strikes with aircrafts and missiles would be far more cheaper and much more accurate way of destroying enemy targets throughout India and indeed Pakistan.It would be much more prudent to do so then send assets and men on a suicidal mission. So acquisition sequence will probably be continue with JFT continue picking up a couple of squadrons of 16s as they come along 2016-8 but not pin too much hope if theyy dont havee J10s/11/6s as our security in case we desperately need more planes for the hi part of Hi lo combo



Bottom line is F-16 is to PAF what F-15 is to USAF
And Jf-17 is to PAF what F-16 is to USAF

That's the best way to put it.

I understand what you're saying, but I don't think PAF wants to frame its doctrine around a single aircraft.
Variety is not necessarily a bad thing. Tactics can be developed for a specific aircraft to take it down in air to air combat, this is where having multiple platform helps.

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## araz

razgriz19 said:


> Bottom line is F-16 is to PAF what F-15 is to USAF
> And Jf-17 is to PAF what F-16 is to USAF
> 
> That's the best way to put it.
> 
> I understand what you're saying, but I don't think PAF wants to frame its doctrine around a single aircraft.
> Variety is not necessarily a bad thing. Tactics can be developed for a specific aircraft to take it down in air to air combat, this is where having multiple platform helps.


Iam fully aware of the function and value of F16s. The question is what does one do if we cant get any more. The options available to us in that case were what we discussed. I think at a national level we should give the impression of nonchalance re.the 16s. We do have options and the 16s are as much our need as it is of the US to keep us in its camp. The provision will depend of what weight each party gives to its case of provision or not of more F16s. I think we are dependent but not hopelessly so. However the US has a much more difficult balancing act in the region. They do need to keep us happy so in the long run we will acquire some older frames and MLU them but if we are not provided those we will not be hopelessly lost. This in a nutshell is what Iam trying to say

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## ACE OF THE AIR

araz said:


> The question really is whether it is now really a need for the 16s to the extent that we bend over for them. AESA is going to go on next batch of JFT and be operational in 2018-19. The Chinese pods will eventually reach maturity and other vendors aill come out with comparable products in 2-5 yrs. So why do we need the 16s. How relevant will they be in 2025. People here are harping on about deep sstrikes. Believe me there wont be àny deep strikes with aircrafts and missiles would be far more cheaper and much more accurate way of destroying enemy targets throughout India and indeed Pakistan.It would be much more prudent to do so then send assets and men on a suicidal mission. So acquisition sequence will probably be continue with JFT continue picking up a couple of squadrons of 16s as they come along 2016-8 but not pin too much hope if theyy dont havee J10s/11/6s as our security in case we desperately need more planes for the hi part of Hi lo combo



Bro, 
I agree with some of the things that you are saying like not having J-10's or J11/16's... F-16's are completely different. F-16's for PAF are a first priority as soon as they are going to find the right aircraft in the right price it is going to be added. If uncle Sam wants something to be done by PAF then it is going to supply x number over night without taking any criticism from the two I's.

Still IMO one should not depend too much on computer systems and BVR's. There are multiple systems that are present on modern fighters that PAF is flying so that in-case one is not working as it should they can cross check with the others so it is putting extra work load. How good your training may be this is still very stressful. 

There are strategies and counter strategies hence thinking of no requirement for deep strike in the future is like considering to surrender. 

Hi / lo mix is required for interceptions as that gives complete air superiority or denial...Till we get or the enemy gets 5th gen or even after these aircraft are required though they would me required in a higher number...

To understand why I am saying these aircraft are still required is similar to the strategy PAF has always considered and is part of its DNA..."A Symmetrical War" where one tries to inflict more economic loss on the other side... This is the reason PAF is still operating Mirage III and V's, even after the Rose upgrade then it is also cost effective. 
If Mirage III or V is able to shoot down a Su-30MKI or Mirage 2k or Rafale (provided they do come) that is going to immediately change the course of the Air War. 



razgriz19 said:


> Bottom line is F-16 is to PAF what F-15 is to USAF
> And Jf-17 is to PAF what F-16 is to USAF
> 
> That's the best way to put it.
> 
> I understand what you're saying, but I don't think PAF wants to frame its doctrine around a single aircraft.
> Variety is not necessarily a bad thing. Tactics can be developed for a specific aircraft to take it down in air to air combat, this is where having multiple platform helps.



No... F-15 is for air superiority and F-16 is for Point defense for all other strikes they have B-2's / B-52's in USAF

Where as for PAF F-16 is for The Aviationist » Operation Opera: how 8 Israeli F-16s destroyed an Iraqi nuclear plant 33 years ago today

For all others we have Mirages, F-7PG and JF-17.

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## fatman17

F16 is a multi role platform and can be used in attack packages depending on the munitions available. It is the high tech end of our air force at this point in time. The JF17 is also a multi purpose platform but is regarded at this time as a medium tech aircraft which is replacing numerous lo tech aircraft in its inventory. So its a natural upgrade. However it is still a evolving platform where as the F16 is a mature tried and tested platform. I support increasing the number of such aircraft in our inventory while as the JFT matures it will certainly be the work horse of the airforce just bcuz of its sheer numbers 150 to 200. When we reach this stage the role of the F16 could be changed to a air superiority fighter. Now having said this the PAF is in a position for the first time to have options up its sleeves if the aforementioned plans go awry like the J10B and the J 31. In the Sanctions era we didn't have any such options which forced us to upgrade the F7 to PG standard and start the super 7 project which morphed into the JF17. I like our options now.

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## Quwa

Indeed. As it stands the PAF is largely focused on the development and induction of JF-17. The next big threshold will be Block-III and the point where PAF would be operating 150-200 JF-17s. That would probably be around 2020, at which money for another big platform purchase might be available.

But once the JF-17 program nears completion (at least in terms of PAF's procurement), I personally believe that the PAF will begin putting resources behind a next generation platform to produce at home. Not only that, but I can see PAC taking greater ownership of the development (albeit with the support of a foreign partner). This fighter would in the long-term replace JF-17. In the interim (mid-2020s), a few FC-31s could be procured.

The F-16s are a loose variable. I don't think the IAF Rafale threat is going to materialize before 2020, and by then going for FC-31 will be on the horizon. But a sudden influx of UAE Mirage 2000-9 in IAF might push PAF to acquire surplus F-16s and/or new-build Block-52+ or V.

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## araz

Mark Sien said:


> Indeed. As it stands the PAF is largely focused on the development and induction of JF-17. The next big threshold will be Block-III and the point where PAF would be operating 150-200 JF-17s. That would probably be around 2020, at which money for another big platform purchase might be available.
> 
> But once the JF-17 program nears completion (at least in terms of PAF's procurement), I personally believe that the PAF will begin putting resources behind a next generation platform to produce at home. Not only that, but I can see PAC taking greater ownership of the development (albeit with the support of a foreign partner). This fighter would in the long-term replace JF-17. In the interim (mid-2020s), a few FC-31s could be procured.
> 
> The F-16s are a loose variable. I don't think the IAF Rafale threat is going to materialize before 2020, and by then going for FC-31 will be on the horizon. But a sudden influx of UAE Mirage 2000-9 in IAF might push PAF to acquire surplus F-16s and/or new-build Block-52+ or V.


Thank you @ Mark Sien and @ Fatman 17.
Iam glad you see the picture of our future acquisition as I do. There are 2 variables here which have been raised. Firstly the fickle nature of the Pak US relationship vis acquisition of newer/MLUed F16s which both of you have alluded to. The apt decription of a loose variable fits in the the context of our description very nicely. We are all happy that barring any sudden and drastic increase in IAF inventory we will probably sit tight and wait for the J31/equivalent.
Mark Sien the disposition of the UAE M2K9s at the moment does not seem to be going anywhere. With no firm plans (at least to my knowledge of further acquisitions by UAE ) I dont think UAE will dispose off these planes. Ithought the French had agreed to buy back these planes but there does not seem to be any firm plans on further acquisitions by UAE AF and as such for the moment they are likely to stay where they are. The IAF also probably does not want to go down that route as they generally want newer planes. So we can for the moment rest assured those will not come into the picture. There are excess M2K platforms available for sale by the french but if that was the plan IAF should have acquired them a long time ago. You may remember we were offered 59ex French AF M2K5s in 2002 with enough spares to last 20 yrs and we did not go for it(source muradk,and I think pshamim as well plus a few others). So what did not happen in 2002 for us could easily have happened for IAF but did not. So do you think this is likely to happen now. The o0tions realistically for IAF and I dare say good ones is to acquire the 36 Rafale and fill up the gap with the MKIs from USSR. NOWwhat happens after that remains a mystery for IAF. Do they go for 5th generation and from which vendor. Ithink F35 maybe an option as IAF had expressed reservations over the PAKFA. This is the step that needs to be seen and countered. I think we have the cat in the bag either way. If all goes to plan we continue as planned and economic climate stabilizing we should have F31/equivalent as our next acquisition. Further F16s remain our backup in case of any surprises. 
Araz

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## Donatello

araz said:


> Thank you @ Mark Sien and @ Fatman 17.
> Iam glad you see the picture of our future acquisition as I do. There are 2 variables here which have been raised. Firstly the fickle nature of the Pak US relationship vis acquisition of newer/MLUed F16s which both of you have alluded to. The apt decription of a loose variable fits in the the context of our description very nicely. We are all happy that barring any sudden and drastic increase in IAF inventory we will probably sit tight and wait for the J31/equivalent.
> Mark Sien the disposition of the UAE M2K9s at the moment does not seem to be going anywhere. With no firm plans (at least to my knowledge of further acquisitions by UAE ) I dont think UAE will dispose off these planes. Ithought the French had agreed to buy back these planes but there does not seem to be any firm plans on further acquisitions by UAE AF and as such for the moment they are likely to stay where they are. The IAF also probably does not want to go down that route as they generally want newer planes. So we can for the moment rest assured those will not come into the picture. There are excess M2K platforms available for sale by the french but if that was the plan IAF should have acquired them a long time ago. You may remember we were offered 59ex French AF M2K5s in 2002 with enough spares to last 20 yrs and we did not go for it(source muradk,and I think pshamim as well plus a few others). So what did not happen in 2002 for us could easily have happened for IAF but did not. So do you think this is likely to happen now. The o0tions realistically for IAF and I dare say good ones is to acquire the 36 Rafale and fill up the gap with the MKIs from USSR. NOWwhat happens after that remains a mystery for IAF. Do they go for 5th generation and from which vendor. Ithink F35 maybe an option as IAF had expressed reservations over the PAKFA. This is the step that needs to be seen and countered. I think we have the cat in the bag either way. If all goes to plan we continue as planned and economic climate stabilizing we should have F31/equivalent as our next acquisition. Further F16s remain our backup in case of any surprises.
> Araz



US will not simply sell F-35 to India, regardless of how much money they can make. It will upset the balance in the region, unless China and Pakistan have both fielded similar level of stealth technology.

Since India is trying to occupy itself with the PAK-FA and AMCA, why would they want to go for F-35, when they didn't bother with the F-16IN or F-18 for the MMRCA?
In my view, the grant of a 126 jet order to a USA firm might have helped India get F-35 beyond 2020, but now it doesn't make any sense.

But then, IAF is known to field many different types in the same role......so screw logic.


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## araz

Donatello said:


> US will not simply sell F-35 to India, regardless of how much money they can make. It will upset the balance in the region, unless China and Pakistan have both fielded similar level of stealth technology.
> 
> Since India is trying to occupy itself with the PAK-FA and AMCA, why would they want to go for F-35, when they didn't bother with the F-16IN or F-18 for the MMRCA?
> In my view, the grant of a 126 jet order to a USA firm might have helped India get F-35 beyond 2020, but now it doesn't make any sense.
> 
> But then, IAF is known to field many different types in the same role......so screw logic.


D
I was just going by the press which has clearly demonstrated IAF high ups unhappiness with PAKFA. They have also boasted about getting F35 and again there have been news from Indian and US sources about the "willingness " of both parties to consider the sale. As such we have to factor it in and analyse the robustness of our acquisition cycle which is what I did. What gets or does not get sold or bought is not my business as far as IAF is concerned but what PAF does and plans for MY country is very much so. As such I made the post.
Hope this explains my train of thought. If it has chugged its way on to a different station than yours we can exchange ideas.
Regards

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## Donatello

araz said:


> D
> I was just going by the press which has clearly demonstrated IAF high ups unhappiness with PAKFA. They have also boasted about getting F35 and again there have been news from Indian and US sources about the "willingness " of both parties to consider the sale. As such we have to factor it in and analyse the robustness of our acquisition cycle which is what I did. What gets or does not get sold or bought is not my business as far as IAF is concerned but what PAF does and plans for MY country is very much so. As such I made the post.
> Hope this explains my train of thought. If it has chugged its way on to a different station than yours we can exchange ideas.
> Regards



It's not that my thoughts were different, but that there is a misconception that somehow India is definitely going to get the F-35 just like any other jet.
You have to realize the potential un-balance that a stealth technology brings.
For example, India buying Rafales or Flankers is un-balancing, but nothing that cannot be countered with advanced radars, BVR and WVR missiles. But what about F-35? When your standard Air Defence set up cannot detect it, it tilts the balance in favor of the stealth. I've always maintained, that getting a Stealth aircraft in the region is akin to getting the nukes. China needed those, India needed those, Pakistan needed those. Since it cancels out any inherent conventional advantage, you got no issues.
IAF plans a lot of things. They planned LCA then they planned the mother of all 126 jet MMRCA. Yet, they still haven't been able to procure even 36 of them.
There was always a talk of F-35 being pitched by USA for Indian Aircraft carrier....well did that happen? They are still flying Mig 29 and developing naval LCA.
In short, what i mean to say is, buying F-35 is NOT the same as buying F-15 or F-16s from the USA. Very different power politics at play there.
However, if USA is able to see Pakistan and China get a stealth aircraft, then sure, they might offer the F-35, but USA is not going to be the one that un-balances the conventional regional forces because that will indirectly force China to respond as well. While India is strategic partner, it is still not at that stage. India is not Israel or Turkey.
Or clearly, India does not really have much value....USA just approved a massive AH1Z package to Pakistan, even though Indian order for AH64s still hangs out there........
If India was something to USA, as much as the Indian dreamers here believe, USA would refuse to sell any equipment to Pakistan that can also be used against India.
Just like Israel allowing the BLK52s to Egypt, while stopping short of the AIM120.
Turkey is different case though, since they are full NATO member.

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## fatman17

Donatello said:


> It's not that my thoughts were different, but that there is a misconception that somehow India is definitely going to get the F-35 just like any other jet.
> You have to realize the potential un-balance that a stealth technology brings.
> For example, India buying Rafales or Flankers is un-balancing, but nothing that cannot be countered with advanced radars, BVR and WVR missiles. But what about F-35? When your standard Air Defence set up cannot detect it, it tilts the balance in favor of the stealth. I've always maintained, that getting a Stealth aircraft in the region is akin to getting the nukes. China needed those, India needed those, Pakistan needed those. Since it cancels out any inherent conventional advantage, you got no issues.
> IAF plans a lot of things. They planned LCA then they planned the mother of all 126 jet MMRCA. Yet, they still haven't been able to procure even 36 of them.
> There was always a talk of F-35 being pitched by USA for Indian Aircraft carrier....well did that happen? They are still flying Mig 29 and developing naval LCA.
> In short, what i mean to say is, buying F-35 is NOT the same as buying F-15 or F-16s from the USA. Very different power politics at play there.
> However, if USA is able to see Pakistan and China get a stealth aircraft, then sure, they might offer the F-35, but USA is not going to be the one that un-balances the conventional regional forces because that will indirectly force China to respond as well. While India is strategic partner, it is still not at that stage. India is not Israel or Turkey.
> Or clearly, India does not really have much value....USA just approved a massive AH1Z package to Pakistan, even though Indian order for AH64s still hangs out there........
> If India was something to USA, as much as the Indian dreamers here believe, USA would refuse to sell any equipment to Pakistan that can also be used against India.
> Just like Israel allowing the BLK52s to Egypt, while stopping short of the AIM120.
> Turkey is different case though, since they are full NATO member.



15 helos is massive! !!


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## Donatello

fatman17 said:


> 15 helos is massive! !!



It is, considering the level of technology they bring over the previous helis Pakistan operated, along with the 1000 missiles....which no one saw coming....

It is not going to form the main fleet anyway....we've got plenty options for that.


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## fatman17

Donatello said:


> It is, considering the level of technology they bring over the previous helis Pakistan operated, along with the 1000 missiles....which no one saw coming....
> 
> It is not going to form the main fleet anyway....we've got plenty options for that.



Phaleeese


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## Donatello

fatman17 said:


> Phaleeese



So you would not consider this approval a big deal?


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## fatman17

Donatello said:


> So you would not consider this approval a big deal?



Sir it is a very important deal from our perspective but Israel ordered 14000 Hellfire AGMs recently. That's massive. Don't get me wrong getting hellfires was a great achievement. Now we need to convince US to supply AIM9X for our F16s.

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## Donatello

fatman17 said:


> Sir it is a very important deal from our perspective but Israel ordered 14000 Hellfire AGMs recently. That's massive. Don't get me wrong getting hellfires was a great achievement. Now we need to convince US to supply AIM9X for our F16s.



Look at the rate Israel uses them up and they money they have........plus Pakistan or India ain't no Israel.


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## fatman17

Donatello said:


> Look at the rate Israel uses them up and they money they have........plus Pakistan or India ain't no Israel.



Our rates are not bad either using the TOWII and the bakhtar shikan in the WOT

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## Donatello

fatman17 said:


> Our rates are not bad either using the TOWII and the bakhtar shikan in the WOT



Yes, but our choppers are more 'conservative' at using them only when needed, plus TOWs were getting old anyway. Meanwhile, Israel is usually found wandering in other nations.


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## fatman17

This is a picture from PAF Base Shahbaz home to No 5 Sqn F16C/D's. Note the perimeter wall in the background. 20ft high and 3 ft thick. Such security measures are required at all military installations to safeguard our assets against militant attacks.

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## fatman17

A birds eye view of the inner perimeter wall at Shahbaz AB

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## araz

fatman17 said:


> This is a picture from PAF Base Shahbaz home to No 5 Sqn F16C/D's. Note the perimeter wall in the background. 20ft high and 3 ft thick. Such security measures are required at all military installations to safeguard our assets against militant attacks.


Sir it seems like prefabricated sheets of concrete which have been bolted on to a a base . Reminds me of the wall Israel is creating around Gaza and other parts of Palestine. I fully agree with you on this arrangement on each and every base starting at karachi, and Sargodha and Peshawar.

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## fatman17

araz said:


> Sir it seems like prefabricated sheets of concrete which have been bolted on to a a base . Reminds me of the wall Israel is creating around Gaza and other parts of Palestine. I fully agree with you on this arrangement on each and every base starting at karachi, and Sargodha and Peshawar.



It's not rocket science just common sense. Pakistanis in general are very lax in their security procedures except for the SPD.

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## Ack Ack




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## Ack Ack




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## fatman17

The Hero of Skies 

Columnist Sqn Ldr Matloob Bokhari goes back into memory lane to remember one of PAF’s authentic sons.

On 12 March, 1933, God blessed Syed Dur Hussain Bokhari with a son named Shabbir Hussain.The child with large brown eyes and moon-like shining face was given the nickname of “Chan” moon. According to his cousin, Syed Sajjad Hussain, Shabbir, since his childhood, had a passion for flying. His dearest pastime, in those days, was to make models of aircraft. Shabbir did his matriculation from MC High School Mozang, Lahore and then got admission to FC College, Lahore. His cousin, Syed Abid Ali told that Shabbir had an average interest in studies at the college. His fondest dream was to become a fighter pilot. His joy found no bound when he got commission in PAF in February, 1954. His brother Colonel Saghir Bokhari told that Shabbir achieved all successes in life due to his strong faith in God. His faith carried him through hazards courageously. He used to say, “ If you work hard with sincerity, God will give you more than you deserve”.

The study of annual reports of his early service career shows that he was an enthusiastic fighter pilot who had a great passion for flying. “ To get ability, you need good training” (Colonel Enrich cited in Robert. I. Shaw, 1986, p.333). Shabbir worked against time to gain consummate flying skill. His service record reveals that he was a true professional who loved his job. He served in various fighter units as a squadron pilot and fighter commander for 9 years. He took over command of a fighter squadron in 1963. From 1963-1970, he commanded three different fighter squadron at Masroor, Dacca and Peshawar. Afterwards, he commanded two fighter wings at the different bases. In 1975, he was posted to Air Headquarters as Director of Operations. He was given the prestigious appointment of Base Commander Sargodha in 1979. Subsequently, he took over as Air Officer Commanding, Northern Air Command in July,1982. Shabbir always put service before self. Similarly, service befittingly rewarded his dedication to duty and professionalism. He was made DCAS (Ops) and later on, he retired from PAF as VCAS in 1988 after rendering 34 years of brilliant service.

During his service, Air Marshal Shabbir attended a number of professional courses. His course reports reveal that he was highly disciplined, hardworking, self-confident officer who was driven by a dream to become the ace of aces. His service courses include: Fighter Leaders’ Course, Flight Safety Officers’ Course at University of Southern California, USA; Pakistan Air Force Staff Collage; Royal College of Defence Studies, UK; and Senior International Defence Management Course, USA. Also, he had the honour of training the pilots of Iraqi Air Force in 1968. PAF acknowledged his services by awarding him Hilal-i-Imtiaz Military, Sitara-i-Jur’at and Tamgha-i-Basalat.

As he progressed in career, Shabbir’s unparalleled professionalism, excellent marksmanship and exceptional flying skill distinguished him as a fighter pilot. “The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood who strives valiantly, who knows the great enthusiasms who spends himself in a worthy cause.” (Roosevelt cited in Nixon, 1982, p.345). Certainly, the time came in the life of Shabbir when his mettle and Leadership were tested in the flames of war. He bravely stood the test of time and made a permanent niche in the temple of fame. A formation of 5 F-86 aircraft with Squadron Leader Shabbir Hussain Syed, the Squadron Commander, in the lead, took off at 0635 hrs to strike against Kalaikunda. The total loss to the enemy on that single day was over 14 aircraft, whereas, PAF lost only two aircraft during the war in the Eastern Theatre.

During the strikes, Sqn Ldr Shabbir and his flight destroyed on the ground 10 Canberra (Light Bombers) and two unidentified enemy aircraft and damaged two more. In an aerial combat following the strike, the lion-hearted Shabbir destroyed one enemy Hunter aircraft. For his exceptional flying skill and outstanding valour, Squadron Leader Shabbir Hussain Syed was awarded Sitara-i-Jur’at. After these epoch-making missions, No 14 Squadron earned the nickname of ‘Tail Choppers’. “Despite the Kalaikunda strike becoming a classic in the PAF, I never heard Shabbir giving an embellished account of it in any company. When pressed, all he ever said was that he had trained his squadron for that mission and when the time came, his boys performed upto his expectations.This rare leadership quality and his distinguished performance in more senior ranks and assignments in the subsequent years earned Shabbir an enormous amount of respect and he accepted it with quiet dignity.”Air Chief Marshal Jamal, commending the leadership and courage of Air Marshal Shabbir, Air Marshal Nur Khan writes, “In spite of the advice from local army soldiers and the Government of East Pakistan not to take any initiative that might provoke Indian, it was difficult to hold back Shabbir and his Squadron from launching an offensive ... This courageous strike and continued aggressive air operations by Shabbir and his men totally brought the sky of East Pakistan under the control of PAF. The strike of Kalaikunda in East Pakistan was thus one of the most humiliating experiences by IAF”. Air Chief Marshal Shamim in an interview with the writer said, “Shabbir was a jewel of a man who always had good opinions about others. As ACAS(Ops), he always gave solid recommendations instead of only writing, “Recommended and forwarded” on files. I valued his professional and matured opinions. He was an unassuming person who never liked to discuss his historic strike against Kalaikunda”. Air Cdr Kamal talking with the writer said, “Shabbir was a great man who never discussed people. He was one of the best leaders PAF ever produced. Shabbir was a humble person who never liked to talk about his classic Kalaikunda Strike”. In an interview with the writer, Air Cdr M M Alam paid tribute to Air Marshal Shabbir in these words “Sajad’s strike against Pathankot, our superior air combat and Shabbir’s strike against Kalaikunda tipped the balance of war in favour of PAF”. Of all the galaxy of military attributes that which shone brightest in Air Marshal Shabbir was leadership, Air Cdr Sajjad Haider praises his leadership talent in these words “My friend was a great leader. He led the Kalaikunda Strike with remarkable valour, professional skill and meticulous precision”. Air Marshal Shabbir’s mastery over his flying machine proved that, in the aerial warfare, the factor of quality is relatively more decisive than the factor of quantity. The story of lightening and roaring raids over Kalaikunda continue to be a resounding chapter of the air combat history. Perhaps, the greatest tribute paid to Air Marshal Shabbir was by Air Chief Marshal PC Lal, Chief of the Air Staff, Indian Air Force when he writes about sound and fury of this memorable attack “When we have not realized ... and once in a while we have not, as at Kalaikunda, we have paid for it”. Very few in the history of warfare have enjoyed the unique distinction which Air Marshal Shabbir has — that in spite of inflicting heavy losses to the enemy, he was admired by him as a brave and courageous fighter pilot. His high order leadership, excellent professionalism and brave deeds will be a great source of inspiration for all the fighter pilots.

“The fighter pilot is an independent character. He does not like too many people around him. He is an individualist”.(Colonel Hartman cited in Robert. L. Shaw, p.282). These lines truly portray a true picture of Air Marshal Shabbir. He was an independent character and an individualist In the history of aeral warfare, Shabbir will ever be remembered a hero who was respected and praised by the friend and foe alike. Born and bred in a small village, Shabbir inscribed a saga of courage and valour in the azure sky.

On 29 April, 2002, he closed his large brown eyes for all the times. His moon-like shining face waned away. The “Chan” eclipsed forever never to appear again.

PAF never forgets its heroes. From Air Marshal Nur Khan to Air Chief Marshal Pervez Mehdi Qureshi — all the former Air Chiefs went to his village to pay homage to the hero of the nation. Air Chief Marshal Mushaf Ali Mir with his PSOs was there to salute the permanent resting abode of the Hero of The Skies.

Every soul shall have a taste of death: And We test you by evil and by good by way of trial: To Us must ye return. (XXI:35)

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## ghazi52

.........Salute..................................


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## AsifIjaz

Salute to the son of the soil. 
May Allah give us the insight and the memory to honor them forever.


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## fatman17

China's Super Weapons: Beware the J-20 and J-31 Stealth Fighters


Ryan Henseler

Throughout its history, the People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) of the People’s Republic of China (PRC) has lagged behind the aerial programs of other world powers such as the United States. Now, the PRC has set its sights on producing indigenously designed “fifth generation” fighter jets comparable to the US F-22 Raptor and F-35 Lightning II. Many U.S. officials and pilots suspect that the Chinese have been using hacked U.S. technology to aid their indigenous development programs. The PRC is also leveraging additive manufacturing technology (better known as 3D-printing) in order to increase speed and efficiency in manufacturing aircrafts and compete with the U.S. The J-20 Black Eagle could be fully operational by 2018, and a second model, the J-31 Gyrfalcon, by 2020. If true, China’s new generation of fighters could have a substantial impact on its ability to either defend what it considers to be sovereign airspace, or to mount an aerial offensive in a wartime scenario, particularly against Taiwan (ROC). 
Recent Advances in the PLAAF
Between 1990 and 1992 the PRC purchased 24 Su-27 Flankers from Russia and slightly modified the design to become the J-11 Flanker B+. In response, the U.S. sold 150 F-16 Fighting Falcons to Taiwan. The acquisition of fourth generation Su-27s allowed China’s Air Force to enter modernity, and they have become progressively more capable ever since. In 2010, half of the PLAAF fleet still consisted of jets modeled after 1950s and 1960s Soviet MiG-19 Farmers and MiG-21 Fishbeds, but China’s ability to project air power has increased significantly within the past 5 years. Recently, the PRC and Russia have nearly completed a deal to transfer 24 Russian Su-35 Super Flankers, a potent “generation 4++” fighter, to the Chinese, in addition to China’s scheduled integration of fifth generation technology.
Currently the PLAAF relies on the J-11 as its primary fighter. However, this model is largely unproven. This aircraft is perhaps most recognized as the fighter variant involved in an August 2014 incident in which a single J-11 intercepted a USN P-8A Poseidon surveillance aircraft 135 miles east of Hainan Island. Twice the J-11 came within 50 yards of the U.S. aircraft. The aggressive maneuvering by the Chinese pilot was an example of the PLAAF making it clear that U.S. surveillance is not appreciated within the airspace over its exclusive economic zone (EEZ).
Fifth Generation Capabilities
Since 2008 the PRC has worked to design and manufacture fifth generation concepts, both for its own use and to sell on a global scale. Two companies in China have worked on designs: the Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group (J-20) and the Shenyang Aircraft Corporation (J-31). Both are subsidiaries of the state-owned Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC). It is likely that the J-20 and J-31 will complement one another when integrated into the PLAAF’s arsenal. The J-20 is closer to becoming operational, with an inaugural test flight in 2011; it is expected to reach initial operating capability (IOC) by 2018. Because both jets are still in prototype stage, their exact capabilities are not certain. However, it is speculated that the J-20 will provide a long-range strike system capable of reaching anywhere in the Western Pacific region, and incorporate a stealth design; the first of its kind in the PRC. In a conflict, the J-20 would likely be deployed in air-to-air combat with the mission of limiting the enemy’s radar coverage and strike range. The J-31 could be a potent complement to the J-20, similar to the planned U.S. partnership of the F-22 and F-35. While the J-20 is expected to possess superior dogfighting abilities, the J-31 will be “the perfect fighter for the PLA to carry out anti-access area-denial (A2AD) strategies in the Western Pacific”. The J-20 is slightly faster, with a maximum speed of Mach 2.5 compared to Mach 2 for the J-31. Both sport a combat radius of approximately 2000km (1242 miles).
U.S. officials believe that the J-31 will immediately match or exceed the capabilities of U.S. fourth generation fighters such as the F-15 Strike Eagle and F/A-18 Super Hornet, and could possibly even compete with the F-22 or F-35. But this would largely depend on several factors including the quality of Chinese pilots, the quantity of fighters produced, and the reliability of radar and other equipment on board. In late 2014, AVIC President Lin Zhouming made an even bolder prediction, saying, “When [the J-31] takes to the sky, it could definitely take down the F-35. It's a certainty.” Even if neither of the Chinese fighter jets is entirely up to par with U.S. fifth-gens, they still could drastically change the dynamic of both a conflict with the U.S. or a scenario such as an invasion of Taiwan.
Implications
If the PRC decided to launch an attack across the Taiwan Strait, a contingency that it practices every year, air superiority would be essential for three reasons: the relatively small amount of airspace available over Taiwan; the ROC Air Force’s (ROCAF) ability to saturate its airspace with its own fighters, and the ROC's extensive surface-to-air missile defense system. If the PLAAF is unable to prevent or significantly limit attacks against its naval vessels when crossing the Strait, the mission would almost certainly fail. Ultimately, the PRC’s accumulation of cutting-edge fighter technology could provide the critical air advantage over the ROCAF to carry out a successful invasion, and should be cause for concern at the strategic, operational, and tactical levels of war for the U.S. 
This piece first appeared on Project 2049’s blog AsiaEye here.


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## fatman17

Mixed flight of Mirage III and Vs

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## fatman17

How China's expert fighter jet designer avoids America's mistakes


Robert Beckhusen

August 3, 2015

There's aircraft designers, and then there's ace designers. There are thousands of engineers around the world producing planes, but ace designers only come along once every few decades.

The United States had Kelly Johnson, the designer of the SR-71 Blackbird. Germany's Willy Messerschmitt produced a line of famous fighter planes. The Soviet Union's Mikhail Simonov created the muscular Su-27 fighter-bomber to compete with America's F-15 Eagle.

Each of these aces were highly skilled, but they also owed much of their success to circumstance. They came along when their respective governments invested millions  —  or billions  —  of dollars into transforming brainpower into cutting-edge combat aircraft.

This intersection of engineering genius and lavish spending appears to have produced an ace designer in China. In recent years, an obscure engineer named Yang Wei has rapidly risen to the leadership of the Chengdu Aircraft Design Institute  —  a major warplane manufacturer responsible for quickly churning out Beijing's top warplanes.

Yang is principally responsible for two fighter jets that we know about. One of these is the J-20, China's first stealth fighter. He also headed the development of the JF-17 Thunder, a modern and evolutionary improvement of the early MiGs developed by the Soviet Union a half-century ago.

What we know about Yang is that he was born in 1963, and enrolled at the Northwestern Polytechnical University in 1978 at the age of 15. He completed two degrees and became a control systems engineer at Chengdu.

In a 2011 profile, the state-owned journal Science and Technology Daily described Yang as the brains behind China's 1980s innovations in electronic fly-by-wire controls. The journal credited him with implementing "all-digital simulation" tests for aircraft, "breaking the blockade of foreign technology."

This is overstated, but there's no doubt Yang is highly influential. By the age of 35, he rose to Chengdu's leadership and worked on the J-10, one of China's most numerous warplane types. The J-10 was a tricky aircraft to build and was beset by numerous design flaws, including a notable failure in its fuel system in the late 1990s. But Yang's solutions later worked their way into the JF-17; a practice known as "parallel development," according to the journal.

In other words, what Yang seems to have done is establish an alternative philosophy to Western fighter design  —  illustrated by the stealthy, but expensive and problem-prone F-35 Joint Strike Fighter. China now builds fighters cheaply, quickly, and simply. This is not to say Yang's fighters are perfect or even fundamentally new.

J-20

Case in point is the Chengdu J-20. As a stealth fighter, this twin-engine, delta wing aircraft could be stealthier  —  at least from behind. Which probably means it's not principally an air-to-air dogfighter. But there's an ongoing debate about that. No one except its designers know what it's supposed to do.

One school of thought has the J-20 acting as a long-range sniper, speeding directly toward U.S. reconnaissance planes and tankers … and shooting them out of the sky. Without those support assets in the air, America's ability to wage war in the western Pacific drops dramatically.

The J-20 is stealthy from the front  —  see its angular features. But it's also big at 62 feet long (about 19 meters). That befits more of a ground-attack role with some self-defense capabilities, which would also require a stealthy shape principally at the front.

Even then, it has its problems. Tiny canards, like little extra limbs, protrude from the forward half of the fuselage to add more aerodynamic stability. This appears to be an afterthought, as the canards reduce stealth, which means China still has work to do to make a near-undetectable aircraft comparable to American designs  —  perhaps even Russian ones as well.

Another problem is that it's underpowered considering its size and the fact that it wields twin AL-31F engines. Those engines are Russian and just a bit too weak for an aircraft that must balance speed and agility, which the J-20 appears to strive to do. Then there's the electronics and fire-control systems, both areas where Chinese innovations are lacking.

But it does represent a major leap for Chinese stealth airframe design  —  which had heretofore been unable to produce a fighter of this kind at all. The Pentagon, for its part, drastically underestimated the timeline; it didn't expect a stealth fighter until later this decade at the earliest. China revealed it to the world in January 2011.

Chengdu has produced six prototypes. The designers are also taking J-20 and evolving it. The plane's engine nozzles, one of the big giveaways to radar sweeps from behind, have been partially concealed on later prototypes. And Chengdu has apparently modeled its electro-optical targeting arrangement after the F-35. Other features, such as the front, resemble the U.S. F-22. That's perhaps helped by data theft from America's stealth fighter programs.

Plus, the J-20 will likely have an advantage over the F-35 in terms of speed and maneuverability owing to its large, delta wing design. What the J-20 lacks is a bigger, reliable engine. Particularly one that's not made in Russia. And, of course, the sensors to see targets at long range.

"The J-20's size, range, and stealth could also make it a formidable long-range strike platform, particularly if bomb-carrying planes were mated with air-to-air missile-armed J-20s as part of a strike package to hit high-value targets in the vicinity of the first and second island chains", China military analysts Gabe Collins and Andrew Erickson noted in a 2011 paper (as PDF).

Now step back for a moment. This is not a game-changing warplane. But in a little more than a decade, China went from having no stealth warplanes to entering the select club of countries in the fifth-generation fighter business. That's no small feat.

We can expect, owing to Yang's design philosophy, that whatever the J-20 becomes will not be radically different from what we've seen already.

JF-17

The JF-17 Thunder is a very interesting plane, if you like modern takes on classic Soviet-era fighters. You should.

The lineage is one the most interesting things about it. An upgrade of China's J-7  —  itself a copy of the workhorse MiG-21  —  the Thunder is indicative Chengdu's evolutionary approach to fighter design. The JF-17 traces its basic framework all the way back to the 1950s. Plus, at $25 million per unit, it's a bargain compared to a $200 million F-35.

Chengdu designed this multi-role fighter  —  which can dogfight and attack targets on the ground  —  for export to the Pakistani air force.

The Thunder is roughly equivalent to the American F-16 Fighting Falcon, which is also in service with the Pakistani air force, but which cost twice as much per unit. The Thunder is not a stealth fighter. Far from it. But if an F-16 can beat an F-35 in a dogfight, then so can a JF-17.

This isn't your grandfather's MiG-by-another-name. For one, it has improved wings for greater maneuverability and a powerful Russian RD-93 turbofan engine. Another key difference is the shape of the nose. If you look at a MiG-21 or J-7, each has a rounded, inward-protruding engine air intake. This made sense when these fighters came about in the 1950s and 1960s, respectively, as both types had limited fire-control radars.

But as Chinese radar technology advanced, Chengdu moved the Thunder's air intake into its fuselage, freeing up room for the Chinese-made KLJ-7 radar  —  which has capabilities for both air-to-air and air-to-ground strikes.

Then there's the weapons. The fighter can carry quite a lot of weapons; about 3.6 tons worth. It's capable of firing beyond-visual range missiles and the Chinese-made C-802A anti-ship missiles  —  designed to hit American aircraft carriers from 180 kilometers away. In Pakistani hands, the Indian Navy should worry.

Pakistan is the only current user, but the Thunder has emerged as Islamabad's go-to fighter since it became operational in 2007. Part of this is political, as there's a limited base of customers for jointly developed Chinese and Pakistani fighter planes.

There are reports Myanmar and Sri Lanka have ordered Thunders from Pakistan, but as with most arms sales, we'll believe it when we see it. A more serious problem is that the plane's engine is Russian, which complicates the logistical supply chain. Any user who wants their fighters maintained must maintain good relations with the Kremlin.

For China's aviation industry, the continued reliance on foreign parts  —  and particularly engines  —  is one of its biggest liabilities. Beijing's ace fighter designer might never overcome that.


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## Super Falcon

J 10 could be inducted in paf it says 2015 pah has one sqd


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## IrbiS

Super Falcon said:


> J 10 could be inducted in paf it says 2015 pah has one sqd



Wikipedia? I used to believe that too but I've evolved since then

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## fatman17

AFG AF aircraft which defected to pakistan in the 80s at Peshawar AFB. The US was keen to evaluate these Soviet machines.


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## Donatello

fatman17 said:


> AFG AF aircraft which defected to pakistan in the 80s at Peshawar AFB. The US was keen to evaluate these Soviet machines.



What happened to the pilots? They were Afghans i believe.


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## fatman17

Donatello said:


> What happened to the pilots? They were Afghans i believe.



Don't know really.


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## HRK

Donatello said:


> What happened to the pilots? They were Afghans i believe.



as per bear trap written by Brig. M. Yousaf ... gone to USA ... 

earlier one among them took part in Jihad for some time

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## fatman17

IL28 (Harbin H5) was evaluated as a possible replacement for the B-57 but was quickly rejected in the late 60s.


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## fatman17

J-10B still needs Russian engine after domestic engine fails.

Staff Reporter 2015-08-09

After Shenyang Liming Aircraft Engine Company failed to reduce the failure rate of the WS-10 Taihang engine developed for Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group's J-10 fighter, the Chinese jet will have to be equipped with the Russian-built AL31FN-S3 engine, according to the Beijing-based Sina Military Network.

China has successfully fitted its J-11 fighters, the design of which is based on the Russian-built Su-27, with the Taihang engine. This proves that the country is already capable of building engines for advanced combat aircraft. However, the Taihang engine has been proven unsuitable for the J-10 because its bypass ratio is way too big for the fighter, which would reduce the aircraft's maneuverability during supersonic flight, according to the report.

The failure rate of the AL-31FN engine on the J-10 is much higher than the AL-31F on Su-27 fighters. Unlike the Su-27, which is designed as a twin-engine fighter, the J-10 is a single-engine aircraft, meaning that the requirement of the J-10B's engine is even higher than the Su-27 and J-11. Without a proper domestic engine, China must fit the aircraft with the Russian-built engine until the problem is solved.

Until the problem is solved, the development of J-10B can not be completed since the aircraft was originally upgraded to be fitted with a domestic engine.

Besides this technical problem, China needs to prove for political purposes that it is capable of build domestic fighter engines.

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## Capt.Popeye

fatman17 said:


> IL28 (Harbin H5) was evaluated as a possible replacement for the B-57 but was quickly rejected in the late 60s.




The IL-28 (even the Soviet version) was markedly inferior to the Canberra. On the other side of the border, the USSR also offered the IL-28 to the IAF, bundled with the MiG-21 Fishbeds; and at dirt-cheap "friendship prices". But the IAF dismissed it out of hand, refusing to even evaluate it.

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## fatman17

Only one flag is required

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## majid mehmood

is that true that paf is nearing the deal of su 35 with russia as asst president vlamdir kohzin said it


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## RAMPAGE

majid mehmood said:


> is that true that paf is nearing the deal of su 35 with russia as asst president vlamdir kohzin said it


No.


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## majid mehmood

what about vlamdir kohzin statement


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## RAMPAGE

majid mehmood said:


> what about vlamdir kohzin statement


Fake news.


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## majid mehmood

will pak buy j10b after ws10 engine produced without probs


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## syed_yusuf

i think PAF will jump directly to 5th gen
after upgrading JF-17 to blk3


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## Windjammer

*Fireworks over PAF Academy Risalpur, where mid-night Azadi Parade was held.*

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## nomi007




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## Kakaspai

Donatello said:


> US will not simply sell F-35 to India, regardless of how much money they can make. It will upset the balance in the region, unless China and Pakistan have both fielded similar level of stealth technology.
> 
> Since India is trying to occupy itself with the PAK-FA and AMCA, why would they want to go for F-35, when they didn't bother with the F-16IN or F-18 for the MMRCA?
> In my view, the grant of a 126 jet order to a USA firm might have helped India get F-35 beyond 2020, but now it doesn't make any sense.
> 
> But then, IAF is known to field many different types in the same role......so screw logic.


Lockheed Martin offered to sell India the F-35 Lightning II aircraft in the future, as replacements, if the F-16 was chosen


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## Windjammer

*Azadi Parade 2015*

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## araz

nomi007 said:


>


A reasonable presentation. Looking at the size of Maasi one can be assured that the plane is not underpowered.. The MFD mashaq was a nice one. I wonder why they dont standardise it. There was talk of acquiring Harkus from turkey but it seems we are negotiating with them to sell them the Mashaq.
Araz


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## hassan1

F-7P












F 7P Narowal Muridke Road


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## hassan1




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## fatman17

Airforce SSG


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## WaLeEdK2

fatman17 said:


> Airforce SSG


These are the SSW (special service wing) no?

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## fatman17

WaLeEdK2 said:


> These are the SSW (special service wing) no?



Yes correct terminology


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## fatman17

Postcard from Risalpur


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## fatman17

Trainers to Pakistan

Turkey Planning to Donate 34 T-37 Jet Trainers to Pakistan

Posted on 20 August, 2015


Turkish Air Force Cessna T-37C 09838 ‘2-838′ could be one of the 34 of the type which Turkey plans to donate to Pakistan. Turkish Air Force

TURKEY IS planning to supply surplus 34 Cessna T-37 jet trainers to Pakistan free-of-charge. The Commander of the Turkish Air Force, General Abidin Unal, informed his counterpart in the Pakistan Air Force (PAF), Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman, of the decision to donate the aircraft when they met recently, according to reports today, August 20, in the Pakistani media. These were reported as T-38s in the media, but PAF sources have confirmed that it is T-37s that are involved.

It is expected that they will be handed over before the year-end. Their acquisition without cost will reduce the financial burden on the PAF and meet its requirements for at least the next decade, according to PAF sources.

The Turkish Air Force has had 24 T-37Bs and 34 T-37Cs in storage for over three years since the type was grounded and effectively withdrawn from service following a crash on January 16, 2012, which killed both crew members. In view of the number to be transferred, it is assumed that it will be the T-37Cs that are involved in the transaction.

The PAF also operates both the T-37B and T-37C. The original 35 T-37Bs that were in PAF service have been withdrawn, but 40 more ex-USAF examples, were acquired, in two batches of 20, with deliveries beginning from around 2011. Around 27 T-37Cs also remain in PAF service from 40 originally acquired. AFD-Dave Allport


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## fatman17

Public awareness message


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## dilpakistani

I'm failed to understand why we need t-37s ?


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## black-hawk_101

fatman17 said:


> Trainers to Pakistan
> 
> Turkey Planning to Donate 34 T-37 Jet Trainers to Pakistan
> 
> Posted on 20 August, 2015
> 
> 
> Turkish Air Force Cessna T-37C 09838 ‘2-838′ could be one of the 34 of the type which Turkey plans to donate to Pakistan. Turkish Air Force
> 
> TURKEY IS planning to supply surplus 34 Cessna T-37 jet trainers to Pakistan free-of-charge. The Commander of the Turkish Air Force, General Abidin Unal, informed his counterpart in the Pakistan Air Force (PAF), Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman, of the decision to donate the aircraft when they met recently, according to reports today, August 20, in the Pakistani media. These were reported as T-38s in the media, but PAF sources have confirmed that it is T-37s that are involved.
> 
> It is expected that they will be handed over before the year-end. Their acquisition without cost will reduce the financial burden on the PAF and meet its requirements for at least the next decade, according to PAF sources.
> 
> The Turkish Air Force has had 24 T-37Bs and 34 T-37Cs in storage for over three years since the type was grounded and effectively withdrawn from service following a crash on January 16, 2012, which killed both crew members. In view of the number to be transferred, it is assumed that it will be the T-37Cs that are involved in the transaction.
> 
> The PAF also operates both the T-37B and T-37C. The original 35 T-37Bs that were in PAF service have been withdrawn, but 40 more ex-USAF examples, were acquired, in two batches of 20, with deliveries beginning from around 2011. Around 27 T-37Cs also remain in PAF service from 40 originally acquired. AFD-Dave Allport


I think PAF loves T-37s as they still used them as IJT. Then PAF should focus on acquiring more and more T-37s as they are good for light strike roles too. I am sure 150++ of the upg

150++ of the upgraded T-37s would make a big difference from PAF operations in KPK-FATA.


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## fatman17

dilpakistani said:


> I'm failed to understand why we need t-37s ?



Spare parts to keep the fleet airworthy. Also purchased T37 from S KOREA a few years back for similar purpose


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## Ali Q

PAF policies regarding training Its pilots are really confusing. T-37 is the most cost-inefficient trainer in the world, PAF has two separate setups for Basic Flying training, i.e AJTS, that too with a mixed fleet of K8 and K8P , then a mixed fleet of T-37 B and C, K8P is underpowered for the FCU roles, said by The current Chief himself, The best possible solution is what the PAF leadership has decided i guess, they know a lot more than i do, But i Wish the training could be more simplified, as was envisaged that K8 would replace T-37 in The BFT roles, and either a LIFT replaces the K8P in FCU or JF-17 two seat variant may have been used for that role, thus reducing extra costs due to the ever so notorious fuel inefficiency of the T-37 as compared to K-8, and also a homemade LIFT that wont need setting up a new maintenance infrastructure for a LIFT that we may import, This decision suggests that Our Air Force is really hand tied when it comes to Financial resources, to an extent that They are still sticking to the "scavenge grounded fleets to help save an obsolete fleet" theory, that is actually causing outdated training and a lot of expenditure


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## Quwa

Ali Q said:


> PAF policies regarding training Its pilots are really confusing. T-37 is the most cost-inefficient trainer in the world, PAF has two separate setups for Basic Flying training, i.e AJTS, that too with a mixed fleet of K8 and K8P , then a mixed fleet of T-37 B and C, K8P is underpowered for the FCU roles, said by The current Chief himself, The best possible solution is what the PAF leadership has decided i guess, they know a lot more than i do, But i Wish the training could be more simplified, as was envisaged that K8 would replace T-37 in The BFT roles, and either a LIFT replaces the K8P in FCU or JF-17 two seat variant may have been used for that role, thus reducing extra costs due to the ever so notorious fuel inefficiency of the T-37 as compared to K-8, and also a homemade LIFT that wont need setting up a new maintenance infrastructure for a LIFT that we may import, This decision suggests that Our Air Force is really hand tied when it comes to Financial resources, to an extent that They are still sticking to the "scavenge grounded fleets to help save an obsolete fleet" theory, that is actually causing outdated training and a lot of expenditure


I think we'll start seeing significant shifts when the two seat JF-17 is inducted. The K-8s involved in FCU can be reallocated for intermediate flying, and the T-37 will likely be replaced by some turboprop. So in the future it'd be a three step process: turboprop, jet acclamation on K-8, fighter conversion on JF-17.


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## Ali Q

Mark Sien said:


> I think we'll start seeing significant shifts when the two seat JF-17 is inducted. The K-8s involved in FCU can be reallocated for intermediate flying, and the T-37 will likely be replaced by some turboprop. So in the future it'd be a three step process: turboprop, jet acclamation on K-8, fighter conversion on JF-17.


I think instead of buying a separate turboprop, Mushak should be given a domestic avionics upgrade, K8P replaces T37 and JF-17 twin seat replaces K8P in FCU as a LIFT, save the trouble of buying new off the shelf planes as well as wasting money on fuel used by T-37, USAF has a similar structure, Its Cessna 172P for IFT, followed by T-6A texan 2 which is similar to K8 in capability, a bit less muscular than K8, then Its T-38 or T-1 depending upon what you are given, so we need to take a similar approach, Not to mention that JF-17 would be miles above the T-38 and K-8P would be miles above the T-6A and Mushak can't even be compared to a cessna, it would be a disgrace to the Mushak, Add that to our training standards..


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## fatman17

Mark Sien said:


> I think we'll start seeing significant shifts when the two seat JF-17 is inducted. The K-8s involved in FCU can be reallocated for intermediate flying, and the T-37 will likely be replaced by some turboprop. So in the future it'd be a three step process: turboprop, jet acclamation on K-8, fighter conversion on JF-17.



The current regime is also 3 step at the academy


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## fatman17

What we need is a standardised LIFT platform


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## Ali Q

The current regime is three step but it has a weird lineup.. T 37 A and C, K-8 and K- 8p that's four different planes right there.. based in avionics and sub systems.. and we are buying more t 37 from.turkey those would be even more different in some aspects..


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## Windjammer

Just got this news from a friend....can anyone confirm this.

Pakistan Air Force Defence Day Flypast over Jinnah Park (F-9) Islamabad on September 6 from 1400-1700 hours, open to public.


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## Danish saleem

fatman17 said:


> AFG AF aircraft which defected to pakistan in the 80s at Peshawar AFB. The US was keen to evaluate these Soviet machines.



that Mig 21 present at PAF Museum karachi, and dont knew about the other plane.



black-hawk_101 said:


> I think PAF loves T-37s as they still used them as IJT. Then PAF should focus on acquiring more and more T-37s as they are good for light strike roles too. I am sure 150++ of the upg
> 
> 150++ of the upgraded T-37s would make a big difference from PAF operations in KPK-FATA.



we need to get rid of these old 60's machines, world reaching beyond skies and we still searching for 60's!

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## IrbiS

black-hawk_101 said:


> I really can't understand that why PAF is not using Mirage III-V for bombing in KPK-FATA



They cant deliver LGBs


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## Peace seeker

well its a good news


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## fatman17

IrbiS said:


> They cant deliver LGBs



No for political reasons F16s are being used.


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## IrbiS

fatman17 said:


> No for political reasons F16s are being used.



In the dark of the night, how would a Rose self-lase a target? I'm just talking about *LGB*s not other munitions.


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## razgriz19

fatman17 said:


> No for political reasons F16s are being used.



Our mirages do not carry any targeting pods, thus they cannot deliver LGBs on their own unless someone else provides a laser beam to the target.


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## IrbiS

razgriz19 said:


> Our mirages do not carry any targeting pods, thus they cannot deliver LGBs on their own unless someone else provides a laser beam to the target.



They don't even have ''Laser-spot tracking'' capability, so it's good to use Vipers with Snipers


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## black-hawk_101

I think PAF should look towards acquiring as many as possible T-37s from foreign countries and upgrade them for Attack purpose as they are really very useful and cheap to operate. Where as K-8 can be used for training and attack; when needed.

Cessna T-37 Tweet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Cessna T-37 Tweet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Acquire as many as possible and Free Avionics from US or NATO countries.

I think PAF should look towards acquiring as many as possible T-37s from foreign countries and upgrade them for Attack purpose as they are really very useful and cheap to operate. Where as K-8 can be used for training and attack; when needed.

Cessna T-37 Tweet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Cessna T-37 Tweet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Acquire as many as possible and Free Avionics from US or NATO countries.


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## fatman17

IrbiS said:


> In the dark of the night, how would a Rose self-lase a target? I'm just talking about *LGB*s not other munitions.



My point is this. 
If we use F16s like we are we can prove to the US congress the effectiveness of the F16. Remember the propoganda of our eastern neighbour that F16 cannot be used in such ops which the blind US congressmen tried to derail our MLU deal. This can also then make it easier to buy additional vipers.

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## fatman17

BTW no 27 squadron zarrar Mirages are day/ night tactical strike capable.

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## IrbiS

fatman17 said:


> My point is this.
> If we use F16s like we are we can prove to the US congress the effectiveness of the F16. Remember the propoganda of our eastern neighbour that F16 cannot be used in such ops which the blind US congressmen tried to derail our MLU deal. This can also then make it easier to buy additional vipers.



It's not a concern what neighbours ''think.''

If we had other platforms capable, they sure wud have been complimenting the F-16. In that case, It wud be a sin to use excessive flight hours of F-16 so quickly just to satisfy U.S, but it's not the case.



fatman17 said:


> BTW no 27 squadron zarrar Mirages are day/ night tactical strike capable.



They can fly at low level with FLIR in low light, pop-up near the target, launch H2/H4 etc and then make a run home. But no LGBs.


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## fatman17

IrbiS said:


> It's not a concern what neighbours ''think.''
> 
> If we had other platforms capable, they sure wud have been complimenting the F-16. In that case, It wud be a sin to use excessive flight hours of F-16 so quickly just to satisfy U.S, but it's not the case.
> 
> 
> 
> They can fly at low level with FLIR in low light, pop-up near the target, launch H2/H4 etc and then make a run home. But no LGBs.



It is whether you like it or not. Indian lobby in US congress is far more influential than miniscule pak lobby and India uses it well.


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## fatman17

IrbiS said:


> It's not a concern what neighbours ''think.''
> 
> If we had other platforms capable, they sure wud have been complimenting the F-16. In that case, It wud be a sin to use excessive flight hours of F-16 so quickly just to satisfy U.S, but it's not the case.
> 
> 
> 
> They can fly at low level with FLIR in low light, pop-up near the target, launch H2/H4 etc and then make a run home. But no LGBs.



This war was not of our making. Our airforce is configured to fight our eastern adversary and not the type of ops we are conducting now. It has done a hell of a job of adjusting its tactics and inducting weapons and sensors with the meagre resources at hand. Making sweeping statements and playing Monday morning quarterback is all too easy.

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## IrbiS

@fatman17 janab, We were discussing something else and my point was IF we had something else with capability, it sure wud've shared the workload with ef sola and then PAF wudn't have put all the stress on sola considering their long-term employment and unsure future with U.S.


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## fatman17

Pakistan shows interest in Russia's Yak-130 trainer aircraftTraining and combat military aircraft Yak-130, presented at the International Airshow Singapore Airshow, on the territory of exhibition center "Changi". Source: Marina Lystseva/TASS

Parties have already held preliminary talks, according to reports.

August 26, 2015

Pakistan could become the fourth country to operate the Yak-130 combat trainer aircraft, the website Defenseworld.net has reported, saying that Islamabad has expressed an interest in the aircraft. The website claims that the parties have already held preliminary talks.

Industry sources told defenseworld.net that Pakistan Air Force officials have been talking to executives from Rosoboronexport and Irkut.

According to the report, the Pakistani side has evaluated the flight performance of the Yak-130 and noted “its unique feature of mimicking the flying characteristics of a number of fighter aircraft such as the F-16 and JF-17, which will make the task of transiting from a trainer to a fighter a lot easy for pilots.”

The Yak-130 is designed for training flying school cadets in piloting skills and combat engagements against ground and air targets specific to fourth- and fifth-generation aircraft.

For a training flight, the aircraft can be programmed to suit different weather conditions and take into account the specific type of aircraft for which the pilot is trained – from the Russian Su-30 to the US F-35 and the French Rafale.

Pakistan’s acquisition of the Yak-130 would be the second purchase the country has made of Russian aircraft. In 2014, Russia lifted its arms embargo against Pakistan, and a contract for the supply of four Mi-35M transport and attack helicopters was concluded.


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## fatman17

IrbiS said:


> @fatman17 janab, We were discussing something else and my point was IF we had something else with capability, it sure wud've shared the workload with ef sola and then PAF wudn't have put all the stress on sola considering their long-term employment and unsure future with U.S.



Sirjee exactly what I'm trying to say also. It's difficult to change horses in midstream. If they get the Yak 130 it would certainly take the load off the ef sola. Drones would be an additional advantage especially in Shawal valley. 
Cheers and please don't mind


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## fatman17

Modi govt's 'Mission Encircle and Isolate Pakistan.

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## IrbiS

fatman17 said:


> Sirjee exactly what I'm trying to say also. It's difficult to change horses in midstream. If they get the Yak 130 it would certainly take the load off the ef sola. Drones would be an additional advantage especially in Shawal valley.
> Cheers and please don't mind



There's no reason to mind at all.

But my point wasn't that we shud start using Mirage now or whatever you meant by ''changing horses in midstream''

Argument started when we said Mirages can't deliver LGBs and you countered by saying they are Precision Strike Capable. True, but both are different things hence I said if both were same, we wud've used Mirage from the start. Even ef-solas couldn't support B.o.G during night, before Snipers.


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## fatman17

just a nice pic

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## fatman17

The Yak-130’s multi-mission capabilities in training, air policing, and counterinsurgency make it an attractive option for some customers beyond Russia.


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## araz

fatman17 said:


> The Yak-130’s multi-mission capabilities in training, air policing, and counterinsurgency make it an attractive option for some customers beyond Russia.


So is this interest genuine or is it another wishlist "beyond the reach of my pockets" item. I know that the item has cropped up multiple times in previous debates on CAS. BUT beyoñd the talibans do they have any other utility beyond being training aircrafts. Response would be appreciated.
Regards.
Araz


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## volatile

NO YAK is coming in PAF as unit price is quite similar to thunder around 20 Mil with Infra and other things it will be around 30 Mil .It is two different things to show interest and to buy .By showing interest you understand what is available in Market and what are new trends then ultimately you negotiate for best package with some one who is more aligned with your needs.Only trainer i can think of coming in is from China Hongdu L-15 with TOT and local assembling and best suited for our needs.


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## Quwa

PAF will probably use a two seat JF-17 for LIFT. No point in a dedicated LIFT jet that costs as much and offers less in range, payload, etc.

As for CAS and supporting COIN. Besides using JF-17 with targeting pod, 250kg Takbir JDAM-like PGBs, H2 TV-guided PGB, and possibly AASM-like system, PAF and PA may invest in an EMB-314 type platform. These planes can engage in precision strike as well as CAS at a fraction of the operation cost of our fighters, leaving them for border-focused tasks.

A new gen turboprop can also be bought with local manufacturing and used to take on basic flight in PAF (by replacing T-37). The K-8s can be put to intermediate flight and jet exposure. The two seat JF-17 can do LIFT and OCU.


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## Arsalan

All the talk of getting a new platform in Yak for supporting F-16 in precision attack against Taliban, what about the JF-17?

I understand that the primary role that Yak will be bought for is that of training aircraft but still why there is no mention of JF-17 when we talk about he on going operation? _Is the JF-17 not capable of such precision ground attack missions to support F-16 or even to take the job from F-16_ and spare the F-16 for more important duties? (to preserve the air frame and keep them operational for longer period of time, considering our relations with US).

If we are implying this, It raises a pretty serious question, one that will effect the sales and image of the plane as well as PAC, we were told that the Block-I were not that good at A2A role initially, now if it is that they cannot even support in CAS and precision attack duties, what were they actually good at?

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## DrWatson775

Arsalan said:


> All the talk of getting a new platform in Yak for supporting F-16 in precision attack against Taliban, what about the JF-17?
> 
> I understand that the primary role that Yak will be bought for is that of training aircraft but still why there is no mention of JF-17 when we talk about he on going operation? _Is the JF-17 not capable of such precision ground attack missions to support F-16 or even to take the job from F-16_ and spare the F-16 for more important duties? (to preserve the air frame and keep them operational for longer period of time, considering our relations with US).
> 
> If we are implying this, It raises a pretty serious question, one that will effect the sales and image of the plane as well as PAC, we were told that the Block-I were not that good at A2A role initially, now if it is that they cannot even support in CAS and precision attack duties, what were they actually good at?



The block I can drop LGBs on a target if painted by another aircraft like the F16. Hopefully the block II will paint and bomb on its own.


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## araz

Arsalan said:


> All the talk of getting a new platform in Yak for supporting F-16 in precision attack against Taliban, what about the JF-17?
> 
> I understand that the primary role that Yak will be bought for is that of training aircraft but still why there is no mention of JF-17 when we talk about he on going operation? _Is the JF-17 not capable of such precision ground attack missions to support F-16 or even to take the job from F-16_ and spare the F-16 for more important duties? (to preserve the air frame and keep them operational for longer period of time, considering our relations with US).
> 
> If we are implying this, It raises a pretty serious question, one that will effect the sales and image of the plane as well as PAC, we were told that the Block-I were not that good at A2A role initially, now if it is that they cannot even support in CAS and precision attack duties, what were they actually good at?


Very valid POINT which is why I asked. I keep hearing T38 and yak both of which dont make sense with the twin seat JFT.By the way can anyone who knows confirm that the gifr from Turkey is T38 rather than T 37 which we could use for parts.



DrWatson775 said:


> The block I can drop LGBs on a target if painted by another aircraft like the F16. Hopefully the block II will paint and bomb on its own.


I suspect there is a lot going on behind the scenes and more fighters are being used. The 16s are specifically mentioned for a purpose.

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## Arsalan

araz said:


> Very valid POINT which is why I asked. I keep hearing T38 and yak both of which dont make sense with the twin seat JFT.By the way can anyone who knows confirm that the gifr from Turkey is T38 rather than T 37 which we could use for parts.
> 
> 
> I suspect there is a lot going on behind the scenes and more fighters are being used. The 16s are specifically mentioned for a purpose.


Sir @fatman17 confirms it to be a typo and claims that it is T-37 that are being gifted (which can be used for parts or if upgraded as per reports, can replace the existing fleet with current planes being used for parts)

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## DrWatson775

Arsalan said:


> All the talk of getting a new platform in Yak for supporting F-16 in precision attack against Taliban, what about the JF-17?
> 
> I understand that the primary role that Yak will be bought for is that of training aircraft but still why there is no mention of JF-17 when we talk about he on going operation? _Is the JF-17 not capable of such precision ground attack missions to support F-16 or even to take the job from F-16_ and spare the F-16 for more important duties? (to preserve the air frame and keep them operational for longer period of time, considering our relations with US).
> 
> If we are implying this, It raises a pretty serious question, one that will effect the sales and image of the plane as well as PAC, we were told that the Block-I were not that good at A2A role initially, now if it is that they cannot even support in CAS and precision attack duties, what were they actually good at?



In COIN ops the traditional air and artillery support of bombing or shelling fixed coordinates is getting almost obsolete. In an on-going ground op dynamic targeting is the name of the game with direct contact between commanders on the ground and air assets. This is where time-on-station for an air asset is of the utmost importance so they can be called in when needed. The targets are illuminated by ground troops and guided armament is delivered from the air. I hope the JF17s are able to do this at some point...... maybe they already are able?


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## araz

DrWatson775 said:


> In COIN ops the traditional air and artillery support of bombing or shelling fixed coordinates is getting almost obsolete. In an on-going ground op dynamic targeting is the name of the game with direct contact between commanders on the ground and air assets. This is where time-on-station for an air asset is of the utmost importance so they can be called in when needed. The targets are illuminated by ground troops and guided armament is delivered from the air. I hope the JF17s are able to do this at some point...... maybe they already are able?


I think such a role is ideal for drones and this is the direction one should be proceeding in.


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## Quwa

Arsalan said:


> All the talk of getting a new platform in Yak for supporting F-16 in precision attack against Taliban, what about the JF-17?
> 
> I understand that the primary role that Yak will be bought for is that of training aircraft but still why there is no mention of JF-17 when we talk about he on going operation? _Is the JF-17 not capable of such precision ground attack missions to support F-16 or even to take the job from F-16_ and spare the F-16 for more important duties? (to preserve the air frame and keep them operational for longer period of time, considering our relations with US).
> 
> If we are implying this, It raises a pretty serious question, one that will effect the sales and image of the plane as well as PAC, we were told that the Block-I were not that good at A2A role initially, now if it is that they cannot even support in CAS and precision attack duties, what were they actually good at?


Isn't it generally expensive to deploy fighters? I think the rationale for another CAS platform is stemming from that reality. In the case where heavy and sustained CAS is needed, a full fighter platform might not be a good choice. It'd be much more affordable and effective (from a sustained CAS perspective) to deploy a bunch of EMB-314s or Hurkus-C, especially when the enemy lacks anti-air capabilities.


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## fatman17

araz said:


> So is this interest genuine or is it another wishlist "beyond the reach of my pockets" item. I know that the item has cropped up multiple times in previous debates on CAS. BUT beyoñd the talibans do they have any other utility beyond being training aircrafts. Response would be appreciated.
> Regards.
> Araz



The ef sola is very expensive to operate in the ongoing ops but we have no other tried and tested platform. The capabilities of the Yak130 are very intriguing and it seems to be a great fit. All the talk of PAF’S interest is coming from Russian sources . A single squadron of Yaks would be an all round benefit for the PAF. Having said all that finances due play a major role in our procurement process.

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## fatman17

fatman17 said:


> The ef sola is very expensive to operate in the ongoing ops but we have no other tried and tested platform. The capabilities of the Yak130 are very intriguing and it seems to be a great fit. All the talk of PAF’S interest is coming from Russian sources . A single squadron of Yaks would be an all round benefit for the PAF. Having said all that finances due play a major role in our procurement process.



The JFT is a evolving platform and would and should be a ideal platform in the interdiction /CAS role.


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## Donatello

fatman17 said:


> The ef sola is very expensive to operate in the ongoing ops but we have no other tried and tested platform. The capabilities of the Yak130 are very intriguing and it seems to be a great fit. All the talk of PAF’S interest is coming from Russian sources . A single squadron of Yaks would be an all round benefit for the PAF. Having said all that finances due play a major role in our procurement process.



Anything the F-16 can do in Air to Ground, JF-17 can as well.....it too can carry Laser Pods and guide LGBs...so why are we not using them much? It would be good to at least refine and use the JF-17's ATG capability?


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## ZAC1

Donatello said:


> Anything the F-16 can do in Air to Ground, JF-17 can as well.....it too can carry Laser Pods and guide LGBs...so why are we not using them much? It would be good to at least refine and use the JF-17's ATG capability?


just to show uncle sam we are using ur given stuff thats why u will only hear the word f-16


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## Donatello

ZAC1 said:


> just to show uncle sam we are using ur given stuff thats why u will only hear the word f-16



I know, but i am not sure why PAF has been mum on JF-17 OPs in this war. Both the squadrons of JF-17 are based at Peshawar, so it's pretty easy for the aircraft to routinely fly from there and come back after bombing the talibitches.


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## fatman17

Combat Effectiveness of Yak-130 Enhanced

Source : Our Bureau ~ Dated : Sunday, August 30, 2015.

Irkut has demonstrated Yak-130 trainer aircraft fitted with laser rangefinder intended for visual identification of ground and surface targets and measurement of slant range to them at the MAKS-2015.

Russia has upgraded the the Yak-130 (tail number 01)in a bid to showcase it as not just a trainer but also as a light attack aircraft to its foreign customers.

According to a press statement on Aug 28, the presence of the laser range finder allows for combat use of the Yak-130 in difficult terrain (mountains, gorges), improve the accuracy of determining the coordinates of the operational objectives and the application of existing nomenclature aircraft weapons.

Yak-130 can carry guided and unguided weapons, which allows using the aircraft, both during training and in combat missions.
The total mass of the combat load stored at nine external hardpoints - 3000 kg. The open architecture avionics enables you to extend the range of weapons by looking airborne weapons of Russian and foreign developments.


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## Arsalan

Mark Sien said:


> Isn't it generally expensive to deploy fighters? I think the rationale for another CAS platform is stemming from that reality. In the case where heavy and sustained CAS is needed, a full fighter platform might not be a good choice. It'd be much more affordable and effective (from a sustained CAS perspective) to deploy a bunch of EMB-314s or Hurkus-C, especially when the enemy lacks anti-air capabilities.


It surely is, however inducting a new platform wont be cheap either. Also it is a good time to evaluate the operational capabilities of JF-17, even if it is in not in a very hostile environment.


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## ghazi52

.........................................................................................
Pakistan Air Force (PAF) as pilot ad from 1973.

The PAF aircraft in this ad is F-86E Sabre.





....

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## fatman17

Sunday, September 06, 2015

China, Pakistan launch joint air drill


(Source: Xinhua) 2015-09-06

　　BEIJING, Sept. 6 (Xinhua) -- "Shaheen (Eagle)-4," a joint drill between the air forces of China and Pakistan, began on Sunday in China, a military spokesperson announced.

　　The Chinese contingent includes fighter jets, fighter bombers and early warning planes while its Pakistani counterpart dispatched fighter jets and early warning planes, according to Air Force spokesperson Shen Jinke.

　　Shen, however, did not say how long the drill would last.

　　The joint exercise is part of a series of military exchange programs between the two air forces, Shen said, adding that China's Air Force was willing to expand the scope of cooperation with various countries.

　　The first such drill was held in Pakistan in March 2011, the second in China's western Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region in September 2013, and the third was held in Punjab, Pakistan, in May last year.

Editor:Zhang Tao


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## nomi007



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## hassan1

PAF VEHICALS?
NAME AND DETAIL PLEASE....

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## ghazi52

................. For Base security...

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## fatman17

Shaheen 4 air drill

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## Mehreenzafarpak

Its always great to hear Pak improving in weapons


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## fatman17

Asia & Pacific

Pakistan and Russia are reportedly in talks over the supply of Su-35 fighters and Mi-35M helicopters, according to both Pakistani and Russian press reports Thursday. The sale of Mil Mi-35M helicopters was also reported in August, with it unclear whether current negotiations are a continuation of this previous contract or a new one entirely. The two countries signed a bilateral military cooperation agreement last November , with the fourth-generation Sukhoi Su-35 also eyeing potential export customers in China and Indonesia.

This news just keeps on popping up.


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## fatman17

Which Sukhoi? The SU-35 Platform

SU-35 ?

As one of our readers noted, DID’s articles from 2005-2007 seem to describe 2 different SU-35s. One was a mid-life modernized SU-27 Flanker, but there’s also a much more re-engineered “SU-35″ variant with canards, thrust vectoring, etc. which has been confused with (and possibly redesignated between) the SU-37. So… what do we mean by “SU-35″?

Until very recently, only KnAAPO had listed the SU-35 as a product on its site; Sukhoi now does so as well, but Irkut does not. If this seems confusing, it’s because Sukhoi subcontracts production to affiliate firms – IAIA (Irkut) and KnAAPO (Komsomolosk un Amur). Each has their own intellectual property, and their own interests. In addition, the designation “SU-35″ has been used in several different contexts over the years. It has been referred to, and even photographed, in ways that referred to both mid-life Flanker upgrades, and canard-equipped next-generation aircraft. KnAAPO’s site added the confusion by showing SU-35 pictures on its type page and gallery that display the aircraft both with and without canard foreplanes.

The current “SU-35″, which has been definitively described by Sukhoi, appears to be something of a compromise between the upgrade and full redesign visions. Reader assistance, and sources from Sukhoi and various media, offer an outline of its key systems and characteristics.

SU-35 flight, 2008

“…(known as Su-35BM by some sources- ie. T-10BM to the original Su-27s internal T-10S designation). Differences and features largely speak for themselves in the video, but a short summary follows as related in various other sources follows:

1 – N035 Irbis-E PESA (Passive Electronically Scanned Array) Radar, a follow-on to the Bars-M.
2 – No canards
3 – Rear-looking self-defense radar in shorter tail sting
4 – AL-37FU/ 117S thrust-vectoring turbofan engines rated at 142-147kN
5 – Extended high-lift devices with large flaperon occupying the full trailing edge of the wing
6 – L175M Khibiny-M electronic-warfare self-defense system
7 – Reduced-area empennage
8 – Larger Air Intakes
9 – New and lighter systems, including quadruple digital fly-by-wire flight-control system.
10- New man-machine interface with fully-glass cockpit with two large LCD screens and helmet mounted display.”

Movable nozzles

Sukhoi says that the fighter’s structures have been reinforced because of the increased takeoff and landing weight of the aircraft, and the front bearing has 2 wheels for the same reason. Performance is touted as 1,400 km/h (Mach 1.14) at sea-level, and 2,400 km/h (Mach 2.26) at altitude, with a ceiling up to 10 km/ 60,000 feet. Sukhoi has not touted loaded supercruise (Mach 1+, with weapons and without afterburners), which is likely to require improved engines. Thrust vectoring adds new dimensions of maneuverability, however, once pilots understand when to use it and when to avoid it.

The SU-35S will also depend on its sensors. It couples an electronically-scanned array radar with a 2-step electro-hydraulic drive unit, which creates a maximum radar beam deflection angle of 120 degrees. The NIIP Tikhomirov Irbis-E passive phased-array can reportedly detect and tracks up to 30 air targets, simultaneously engaging up to 8. It can also reportedly detect, choose and track up to 4 ground targets, and engage 2. Detection ranges of over 400 km/ 240 miles have been reported for airborne targets, which are the easiest, but resolutions are unspecified. Detecting a 747 passenger jet at 400 km is much easier than detecting a JAS-39 Gripen lightweight fighter, and information about the radar’s resolution would be needed before its real capabilities would be clear.

Full stealth jets like the F-22A Raptor, of course, create drastic reductions in radar detection range that make them a special case. In an emerging age of stealth fighters, therefore, the 80+ km detection range of the SU-35S’ IRST (infra-red search and track) system is very significant.

The SU-30 family has never been especially stealthy, and their overall airframe design limits what one can accomplish in this area. Nevertheless, Sukhoi cites an unspecified amount of “reduced reflectance” for the SU-35 in the X-band, which is a popular choice for modern radars, and in the angle range of plus or minus 60 degrees. Further improvements were made during testing by adding radar-absorbent materials, and removing or modifying protruding sensors that create radar reflection points.

The reported service life of the new aircraft is 6,000 flight hours, with a planned operational life of 30 years. The claimed service life of NPO Saturn 117S thrust-vectoring engines is 4,000 hours. Time will tell.


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## khanasifm

https://d1fmezig7cekam.cloudfront.n... Business/AB home/Edit/WorldAirForces2015.pdf

china still has lot of old a/c to replace a5, j7 etc

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## fatman17

NEWS

Analysts Skeptical Over Pakistan-Russia Su-35 Negotiation

By Usman Ansari

A Sukhoi SU-35 fighter performs during a test flight ahead of the Airshow more

ISLAMABAD — Analysts are generally skeptical at present of reports Pakistan and Russia are engaged in negotiations for the delivery of a number of Su-35 Flanker E fighter aircraft, though there is a potential requirement for such a heavy fighter.

The reports, first published in Russian media, cited Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov as saying both sides were negotiating for the delivery of an unspecified number of Su-35 jets alongside the Mi-35M "Hind E" helicopter gunships that have recently been agreed upon.

However, no word on any such negotiations was received from the Ministry of Defence Production in Pakistan when asked for comment on the issue. The agency also handles acquisition.

Experts are generally skeptical of any Su-35 being acquired by Pakistan.

Author, analyst and former Australian defense attache to Islamabad, Brian Cloughley, said he "would be most surprised if there were to be any arrangement for provision of Su-35s."

"The Indians would be extremely upset, to the point of a major diplomatic rift," Cloughley said.

Though India is actively seeking to diversify its source of equipment from reliance on Russia, and the latter is seeking a new customer that includes limited defense sales to Pakistan, the Indo-Russian relationship is still very strong as evidenced by the co-development of the next generation PAK-FA stealth aircraft.

Analyst, author and former Pakistani Air Force pilot Kaiser Tufail is also unconvinced at present that negotiations for the Su-35 are actually underway.

"To me it seems more like an offer by the Russians, more than anything else," he said.

Many analysts have considered the current Pakistani plan to carry on investing in the JF-17 Thunder program, and acquire further new or surplus F-16s if possible, to be the optimal way of modernizing its air power as well as reducing combat types. A role for such a heavy fighter as the Su-35 has not generally been envisioned.

However, Tufail says there is a possible need for something in this class on two accounts: diversification and to support naval operations.

The Su-35 "being a twin-engined aircraft with vast range (and endurance), it would help us to have a significant and potent presence in the Arabian Sea, something that the puny, aging Mirage squadron is ill-suited for (as is the JF-17 from the range point of view)," he said. "Given the changing geo-politics and the Chinese investment whose trade terminus is Gwadar, there is definitely going to be a need for a long-range fighter. So essentially, I see it as a guarantor of maritime security as far as the airspace is concerned."

Pakistan has never operated a twin-engine fighter aircraft, but Tufail says this has been a shortcoming.

"This has been a yawning gap in [the air force's] capabilities. These fighters would also allow unhindered patrolling by the naval [long range maritime patrol aircraft], as well as providing top cover to our fleet at sea," he said.

He does not see this as a departure from the established defense posture, but recognition of an existing shortcoming.

"All of this may sound like a sudden switch from continental strategy to a maritime one, but it is high time that we paid serious attention to this aspect in the fast changing geopolitical scenario."

Pakistan's air power over the Arabian Sea already received a boost this month when No. 2 'Minhas' Squadron based in Karachi was re-equipped September 6 with the JF-17 Block II after surrendering its Chengdu F-7P fighters.

Speaking at the time, Tufail said this was overdue: "The re-equipment of [No. 2 'Minhas' Squadron] was due as they had the oldest lot of F-7s. The JF-17 was the obvious replacement."

However, he did not believe it would take over the anti-shipping strike role from the Mirage 5, which he flew during his air force career, even though the JF-17 can carry the C-802A/CSS-N-8 Saccade or the supersonic CM-400AKG.

"This, however, does not necessarily imply that it will immediately take over the maritime attack role. The Mirage-5PA2/3 is still a capable aircraft, though long in the tooth by now. Most likely, the replacement of these Mirages would have a maritime role, so it could be a couple of years before we see a newer capability," he said.

Whether that replacement is the Su-35, however, remains to be seen.

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## fatman17

No 13 Erieye squadron returns to full strength. 

Pakistan AF Erieye Repaired After Damage in Terrorist Attack

Posted on 11 September, 2015



Pakistan Air Force Saab 2000 Erieye AEW&C aircraft 10-025 at Dubai on November 17, 2011. The PAF Erieye fleet is now back up to full strength following repair of the example that was damaged in a terorist attack on August 16, 2012. Dmitriy Pichugin

A PAKISTAN Air Force (PAF) Saab 2000 Erieye airborne early warning and control aircraft has been returned to service, three years after being extensively damaged during a terrorist attack on PAF Base Kamra-Minhas. The aircraft was officially declared operational again with 13 Squadron at Minhas yesterday, September 10, after being repaired by the co-located Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), according to local media source Dunya News.

As previously reported on AFD, the aircraft, identity still unknown, was parked in its hangar at Kamra-Minhas on August 16, 2012, when a rocket-propelled grenade was fired at the hangar wall. Shrapnel from the explosion of the RPG caused serious damage to the Erieye.

An initial inspection by engineers from PAC Kamra on the following day indicated that the aircraft should be repairable. Subsequently, on February 6, 2013, Pakistan Defence Secretary Lt Gen (retired) Azra Fazal Pechuho told a meeting of Pakistan’s National Assembly Standing Committee on Defence that the aircraft had been assessed as damaged beyond repair. It appears, however, that later re-assessment determined it could be repaired after all. A meeting of the Senate Standing Committee on Defence Production was informed yesterday that US aircraft engineers had estimated the cost of rebuilding the aircraft at $30 million, but Pakistani personnel had completed the work for just $15 million, over a period of ten months.

The PAF took delivery of four Saab 2000 Erieyes, the first of which was delivered on December 8, 2009. The repair of the damaged aircraft now brings 13 Squadron back up to full strength. The unit also flies a single Saab 2000 in standard passenger configuration, which is used for crew training. AFD-Dave Allport

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## razgriz19

Super Tucano was in Pakistan sometime before, I don't remember hearing anything about it

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## Sulman Badshah

razgriz19 said:


> Super Tucano was in Pakistan sometime before, I don't remember hearing anything about it


in future PAF might go for hurkus i guess


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## Quwa

Sulman Badshah said:


> in future PAF might go for hurkus i guess


I think Hurkus would be the most likely option for training, but I have a feeling PAF may lease a few Super Tucano for use in the COIN theatre.


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## fatman17

razgriz19 said:


> Super Tucano was in Pakistan sometime before, I don't remember hearing anything about it



Came for demo. Happens all the time


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## fatman17

J20 with DSI. 7th prototype


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## monitor

* Pakistan F-7, JF-17, Mirage III and Il 78 aircraft arrive in China for Eagle -IV exercises *

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## airbus101

By looking at the pictures and it looks like a big number is in China c-130 il-78 f-7 mirages and thunder and may be KE(AWACS) that is alot

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## Zarvan



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## fatman17

Zarvan said:


> View attachment 257024
> 
> View attachment 257025
> 
> View attachment 257026
> 
> View attachment 257027



whats the point of these pictures.

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## fatman17

Thunders over karachi defence area yesterday. Unfortunately couldn't take a pic.

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## Sulman Badshah

fatman17 said:


> Thunders over karachi defence area yesterday. Unfortunately couldn't take a pic.


must have been from new minhas squadron

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## fatman17

Air-Launched Weapons

Chief designer reveals data on China's new Luoyang PL-10 AAM

Richard D Fisher Jr, London - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

17 September 2015


The Luoyang Electro-Optical Research Institute (LEOC) has largely competed development of its fifth-generation PL-10 short-range air-to-air missile (AAM), according to comments by the missile's designer on a Chinese TV show broadcast in late August.

The PL-10 AAM was first seen on Chinese websites in 2013 being carried on a retractable/covered pylon on the Chengdu Aircraft Corporation (CAC) J-20 fifth-generation fighter. More recently it has been seen on the wingtip pylon of the Shenyang Aircraft Corporation J-11 fighter.

The TV report featured an interview with the PL-10's chief designer, Liang Xiaogeng. According to Mark Stokes of the Project 2049 research institute, Liang also served as the deputy chief designer of LEOC's PL-9C infrared/helmet-sighted AAM and as chief designer of the PL-12 self-guided medium-range AAM.

The report was unusual in that it provided significant historic and performance data about a new weapon before its unveiling at a major arms show or exhibition. For example, the report noted that the PL-10 weighs 89 kg, has a length of 3 m, and a range of 20 km. It has been in development for seven years, a prototype was completed in 2013, and since then has been test-fired 30 times.

The report also noted that the PL-10 has "world class" capabilities that include a "multi-element imaging infrared seeker with anti-jamming capabilities" and indicated that it is capable of high off-boresight attacks and has super manoeuvrability.

Images from 2013 and more recently confirm that the PL-10 uses thrust vectoring vanes in its motor exhaust. These, plus unique large aft fins with a slight forward sweep, likely confer super manoeuvrability.

Like comparable AAMs, the PL-10 probably also uses a new helmet-mounted display (HMD) sighting system.

Is this China's version of the AIM 9x


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## UkroTurk

Hi Gentlemens

How can Pakistan Air Force trust Russian aircraft engines? A lot of people says : Russian RD33 engine had 500 hours lifetime. After you have to change???
Why you dont buy another F-16s? Usa dont sell?
Fighter Jet Engine Life &#151; Military Forum | Airliners.net
Sovietjet , 

The Initial RD 33 without turbine modifications had a ridiculously low engine life of 350-400 hours before overhaul. In most of the engines which came with the initial batch of fulcrums for the Indian air force , the engine TBO was kept at 200 hrs to reduce a whole bunch of accidents.Most of the contry's operating the MiG 29 (Atleast India and Germany) made modifications to the turbine section to increase this. Currently the overhaul times for the engine is about 650-700 hours , rarely reaches 700 hours though. The problem with the RD 33 was that while it gave enormous power it always used to overheat. That caused turbine failures. The engines manufactured by HAL under license all have the improved turbine section incorporated in them.

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## hassan1



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## RAMPAGE

UkroTurk said:


> Hi Gentlemens
> 
> How can Pakistan Air Force trust Russian aircraft engines? A lot of people says : Russian RD33 engine had 500 hours lifetime. After you have to change???
> Why you dont buy another F-16s? Usa dont sell?
> Fighter Jet Engine Life &#151; Military Forum | Airliners.net
> Sovietjet ,
> 
> The Initial RD 33 without turbine modifications had a ridiculously low engine life of 350-400 hours before overhaul. In most of the engines which came with the initial batch of fulcrums for the Indian air force , the engine TBO was kept at 200 hrs to reduce a whole bunch of accidents.Most of the contry's operating the MiG 29 (Atleast India and Germany) made modifications to the turbine section to increase this. Currently the overhaul times for the engine is about 650-700 hours , rarely reaches 700 hours though. The problem with the RD 33 was that while it gave enormous power it always used to overheat. That caused turbine failures. The engines manufactured by HAL under license all have the improved turbine section incorporated in them.


AL 31 used on SU 35 claims a life of 4000 hours.


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## UkroTurk

RAMPAGE said:


> AL 31 used on SU 35 claims a life of 4000 hours.


Interesting. Another peoples says :al31 maximum 900 hours but russian enginers working for the 1500hours. 
Who is right? How and where can i get a information in the internet?


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## aliyusuf

The version of AL-31 on the Su-35S (the production version of Su-35BM) is also referred to as the Saturn 117S or AL-41F1S


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## RAMPAGE

UkroTurk said:


> Interesting. Another peoples says :al31 maximum 900 hours but russian enginers working for the 1500hours.
> Who is right? How and where can i get a information in the internet?


117S

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## fatman17

Air Platforms

Pakistani official confirms Su-35 talks

Farhan Bokhari, Islamabad - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

18 September 2015

A senior Pakistani official has confirmed Russian media reports that the two countries have discussed a potential deal on the Su-35. Source: Sukhoi

The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has discussed buying Su-35 'Flanker-E' fighter aircraft from Russia in potentially the largest defence deal between the two countries, but a final decision is yet to be made, a senior Pakistani government official has confirmed to IHS Jane's .

The official was responding to Russian media reports that Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov had said talks were underway for an unspecified number of Su-35s, which follow a recent agreement to provide Mi-35M 'Hind E' attack helicopters to Islamabad.

While the official said "it's too early to say if a deal will conclude and the terms", the fact that discussions have taken place shows Russia's willingness to sell advanced hardware with Pakistan despite Moscow's longstanding ties with India.

The official said Pakistan's interest in the Su-35 was driven by the PAF's need for a twin-engine fighter "that can fly for a longer range than the JF-17 and penetrate more deeply into the enemy's territory". The PAF flies a mixed fleet of Lockheed Martin F-16s, Dassault Mirage-5s, Chinese-manufactured F-7s, and the JF-17 Thunder, which is jointly produced by China and Pakistan.

In November 2014 a senior Pakistani official told IHS Jane's that Pakistan was in discussions with China to buy 30 to 40 FC-31s - the export version of China's J-31 fifth-generation platform. At the time, the official told IHS Jane'sthat Pakistan was interested in the platform partly because it was fitted with two RD-93 Russian Klimov engines, which also powers the JF-17. PAF officials have also told IHS Jane's in the past that they have considered the purchase of up to 40 Chengdu J-10 fighters.


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## fatman17

MILITARY & INTELLIGENCE
19:04 18.09.2015

"Are short-range American tactical fighters relevant in the Pacific theatre?" US defense expert Dave Majumdar asks, adding that F-22 Raptors and F-35 Joint Strike Fighters could be outperformed by the sheer numbers of Chinese jets.

Left Behind: US Jet Fighters Hold No Candle to Russian, Chinese Rivals
China's J-11 fighter jets were designed as a copy of the Soviet-made Su-27/Su-33 Flanker, however, its new J-11D is considered the most advanced land-based single-seat Chinese aircraft.
Reportedly, the J-11D fighter jet is equipped with an active electronically scanned array (AESA), an air refueling system, and carries the fifth-generation PL-10 air-to-air missiles. Chinese media outlets claimed that it made its first flight in April 2015.

"China's Shengyang J-11 unlicensed derivative of the Russian-developed Su-27 Flanker has become the mainstay of the People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF). While the Chinese-built jets are not able to match US-built fighters one-for-one, China is building a lot of them," US defense expert Dave Majumdar pointed out in his article for the National Interest.

Harsh Reality: USAF Admits F-35 Can't Fight at Close Range
According to the expert, the J-11D "is very comparable" in a lot of respects with the Russian Su-35S. Last year Majumdar carried out a brief review of the Sukhoi Su-35S Flanker-E dubbing it "an extremely dangerous foe to any US fighter."
The expert elaborated that the J-11D is purportedly using radar absorbent materials in order to "reduce the jet's signature" and is equipped with an infrared search-and-track system (IRST) and revamped electronic warfare systems. In addition, the J-11D boasts China's most advanced WS-10 jet engine.

Majumdar insists that the US F-22 Raptors and F-35 Joint Strike Fighters are superior to their Chinese counterparts. However, US fighter jets need bases to operate from or tankers to refuel from, and that is where the shoe pinches, the expert noted.

"If there were to be a war in the Western Pacific, the massive air battles that many might envision, are not likely to take place because the United States and our allies have few bases in the region to host tactical fighters like the F-35," Majumdar pointed out, adding that in the event of a direct conflict China is almost certain to destroy these airbases.

"Further, without intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance assets, those jets couldn't be properly supported — and it becomes even more difficult when the Chinese attack the space assets and data networks that hold America's fighting forces together," the expert added.

Majumdar underscored that instead of mocking the F-35's chances of surviving in a dogfight, experts should answer the question: "Are short-range tactical fighters relevant in the Pacific theatre?"



Read more: Thorn in Pentagon's Side: China's New J-11D Jets Boast Advanced Features

Why buy the SU35 when one can get the J11D from China


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## fatman17

Badeber was a SIGINT post in the 60s to monitor the soviets. U2 used to operate from Peshawar AB. No locals were allowed into badeber when it was under US control.

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## cloud_9

Guys who uses the PAF Gulfstream G-IV with registration number J-755 ? Saw this one flying with a PAK1 callsign.


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## fatman17

cloud_9 said:


> Guys who uses the PAF Gulfstream G-IV with registration number J-755 ? Saw this one flying with a PAK1 callsign.



Pak1 is used for prez or pm

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## fatman17

Beginning to like this more and more J11D


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## Windjammer



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## monitor

fatman17 said:


> Beginning to like this more and more J11D


Just wondering can it use engine and rader of su-35.


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## fatman17

"The latest image (September 2015) indicated that an improved WS-10B with FADEC has been installed onboard a *J-10B* testbed, which flew for the first time on September 22, 2015, suggesting the engine has finally overcome some reliability issues and is ready to power the future batches of *J-10B/C*s."


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## black-hawk_101

fatman17 said:


> "The latest image (September 2015) indicated that an improved WS-10B with FADEC has been installed onboard a *J-10B* testbed, which flew for the first time on September 22, 2015, suggesting the engine has finally overcome some reliability issues and is ready to power the future batches of *J-10B/C*s."


PAF is going for J-31, I guess.


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## Windjammer

Picture deleted as it turned out to be PS.


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## GHOST RIDER

Windjammer said:


>



Which Squadron ?


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## fatman17

Joint air exercise of Pakistani and Chinese air force concludes in China




For first time three different types of front line fighter aircraft from various Squadrons of PAF participated in exercise

 APP 
October 03, 2015, 9:10 pm 





*ISLAMABAD -* A Joint Air exercise Shaheen IV between Pakistan Air force (PAF) and PLA Air force, concluded on Saturday at Yinchuan Airbase, China.

PAF Deputy Chief of Air Staff (Operations) Air Vice Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan and PLA Air Force Deputy Commander Lt Gen Zheng Qun Liang were also present in the closing ceremony of the exercise. According to PAF press release issued here, the exercise was aimed at enhancing bilateral relationship and defence cooperation between both friendly neighbouring countries.

It was the fourth exercise of Shaheen series which commenced on 12th September, 2015. It was for the first time that three different types of front line fighter aircraft from various Squadrons of PAF participated in the exercise.



GHOST RIDER said:


> Which Squadron ?



No.2 Sqn

*History of PAF Badaber*

*Ali Ashraf Khan*
*
Monday, October 05, 2015* - Badaber has a long history connected to the US- Pakistani military relations. It was called ‘Camp Badaber’ in 1959 when it served as CIA - United States Air Force Security Service listening post (Communication base) mainly as a spying centre during the cold war against the Soviet Union. Ultimately, America had to vacate the base in July 1970 after its failure to get the agreement renewed amidst increased anti-US public sentiments, especially after the 1965 Indo-Pak war and US arms embargo on Pakistan. The US hold over Badaber was a result of a communication agreement that was negotiated by the US and signed in 1957 by Prime Minister Hussain Shaheed Suhrawardy with Gen. Iskander Mirza as President.

The Pakistani government at that time was hoping for US diplomatic help with regard to a resolution of the Kashmir conflict. The agreement included the American use of Badaber base as a spying station and of Pakistani air space and a portion of Peshawar airport for spying flights by the famous U2 spy plane designed to carry out aerial reconnaissance. When in 1958 Ayub Khan came to power as a result of a military coup he strengthened Pakistan’s military and economic alliance with the US against the Soviet Union who was eying on India to become their strategic partner against US. Pakistan’s policy for a short while led to major economic aid from the US and Europe.

Camp Badaber started operating in 1958. It grew into a small American town that was called “little US” with a population of 800 personnel at the air base and an additional 500 support personnel for cooking, medical care, teachers etc. It was equipped apart from administration buildings, barracks and dining hall with elaborate leisure facilities like a movie theatre, and a gym. Later construction added a bowling alley, golf course, dependent living, and school. These facilities are still there and used by the Pakistan Airforce and their families. In 1960s Badaber drew international attention when one of the U2 spy planes flown by CIA pilot Gary Powers was shot down by a Soviet surface-to-air missile and crashed near Sverdlovsk. The pilot survived and was captured as were the photos that had been taken by the pilot.

The incident became a major embarrassment for the US when they had to admit to spying and a wake-up call for their air force that was not aware of the Russian military capabilities. Powers was indicted and convicted in a Russian court and later exchanged for a Russian imprisoned in the US. It was after the infamous U2 incident took place and after a Red Circle was placed on Peshawar city on Pakistan’s map by Nikita Khrushchev that predestined Pakistan into an open hostility with the USSR that gave a three day ultimatum to cancel this agreement with the US or be prepared for the consequences.

President Ayub Khan on the advice of Bhutto cancelled this agreement with US and asked them to vacate Badaber base. Later US President Johnson and others had tried utmost to get this communication agreement revived but it was not done as long as Ayub Khan remained in power.

Among others the U2 incident is an unfortunate legacy of the past in the relations between Pakistan and Russia that Pakistan is working hard even today to overcome. An interesting incident happened in same period was when Zulfikar Ali Bhutto who was acting foreign minister in Ayub’s government; He planned a tour of Peshawar and conveyed his desire to arrange a visit to Badaber Base as well.

The Commissioner Peshawar contacted the Base Commander to inform about the forthcoming inspection visit to base of our acting foreign minister but the Base Commander immediately communicated with Pentagon and informed the Commissioner that we will receive Mr. Bhutto in the Cafeteria where he can enjoy our hospitality over a cup of coffee with sandwiches only but not see the installations inside the base. When Bhutto was informed he cancelled his program under protest that was also conveyed to the Base Commander by Commissioner Peshawar.

—Karachi


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## hassan1




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## black-hawk_101

PAF is getting more and more:
T-37s
T-38s
I am sure.

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## niaz

black-hawk_101 said:


> PAF is getting more and more:
> T-37s
> T-38s
> I am sure.



Don't think Pakistan operates T-38's. Turkey is giving Pakistan T-37's not T-38's.


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## black-hawk_101

niaz said:


> Don't think Pakistan operates T-38's. Turkey is giving Pakistan T-37's not T-38's.


Still too much confusing. As senior says T-38s are coming for AJTs and T-37s will add power needed.

By the way which countries are still operating T-37s and who are the former operators that can give some to PAF for spares and @ cheap price too.

But I am 100% sure that CPEC will allow the PAF to get 30 L-15 Block-Is @ Cheap Rates similar to 30 Z-10 Block-Is which are coming for Free or may be for Cheap. But I think that these Z-10 Block-Is will remain only in Balochistan. They will have 3 formations: 10 Z-10 Block-1 in North, 10 Z-10 Block-1 in Central and 10 Z-10 Block-1 in South Region.


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## niaz

black-hawk_101 said:


> Still too much confusing. As senior says T-38s are coming for AJTs and T-37s will add power needed.
> 
> By the way which countries are still operating T-37s and who are the former operators that can give some to PAF for spares and @ cheap price too.
> 
> But I am 100% sure that CPEC will allow the PAF to get 30 L-15 Block-Is @ Cheap Rates similar to 30 Z-10 Block-Is which are coming for Free or may be for Cheap. But I think that these Z-10 Block-Is will remain only in Balochistan. They will have 3 formations: 10 Z-10 Block-1 in North, 10 Z-10 Block-1 in Central and 10 Z-10 Block-1 in South Region.




Hon Sir,

Per Air Force Monthly of October 2015 ( page 28). Aircrafts coming from Turkey are 34 T-37's. Until such time someone comes with more reliable info; it would be hard to believe that PAF is getting T-38's.

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## fatman17

niaz said:


> Hon Sir,
> 
> Per Air Force Monthly of October 2015 ( page 28). Aircrafts coming from Turkey are 34 T-37's. Until such time someone comes with more reliable info; it would be hard to believe that PAF is getting T-38's.



Also confirmed by Alan Warnes in his tweet sometime back


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## black-hawk_101

niaz said:


> Hon Sir,
> 
> Per Air Force Monthly of October 2015 ( page 28). Aircrafts coming from Turkey are 34 T-37's. Until such time someone comes with more reliable info; it would be hard to believe that PAF is getting T-38's.


I wish that PAF will buy more and more T-37s.


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## hassan1

PAF DH-104

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## Windjammer



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## Total Destruction

T-37 Actually not T-38






Air Forces Monthly , October 2015 PDF - Military Briefs

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## Aamir Hussain

black-hawk_101 said:


> I wish that PAF will buy more and more T-37s.




May I ask why?


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## Windjammer

A group of Senators visited PAF Base Mushaf, Sargodha , where they also witnessed the Pak-Turkey joint air exercise called Indus Viper 2015, which just concluded.

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## fatman17

The US government is reportedly



planning to sell eight F-16s to Pakistan. The country has been upgrading and up-arming its fleet of F-16s in recent years, with the Obama administration facing a possible block in Congress over the sale. However, this appears unlikely given the delivery in May



of a substantial quantity of surplus US hardware, including helicopters, and the approval in April



of nearly a billion dollars of military equipment.

DID


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## hassan1




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## black-hawk_101

Will PAF going to order 50 L-15s?


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## fatman17

Air Platforms

US prepares to sell eight newbuild F-16s to Pakistan

Farhan Bokhari, Islamabad - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

21 October 2015

The Obama administration is preparing to sell eight new Lockheed Martin F-16 fighters to Pakistan in recognition of the country's push against Taliban militants, a senior Pakistani government official told IHS Jane's on 22 October, hours before Pakistani prime minister Nawaz Sharif was due to meet with US president Barack Obama in Washington, DC.

In 2006 Pakistan signed a contract with the United States to purchase 12 new F-16C and six new F-16D Block 50/52 fighters, which were delivered by 2012. Other F-16s deliveries to Pakistan since the 9/11 terrorist attacks in 2001 have been refurbished older platforms.

"These new aircraft will be more advanced than the last batch of F-16s [the contract for which was signed in 2006]," said the Pakistani government official.


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## alimobin memon

whats t50 for ? any new jets we carrying ? are these T50 versions with weaponry ?


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## fatman17

alimobin memon said:


> whats t50 for ? any new jets we carrying ? are these T50 versions with weaponry ?



There are no plans


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## fatman17

Blast from the past. 


Mirage III Aircraft at Whyalla Seaport in Australia Before Journey by Sea to Pakistan

PostTue Oct 27, 2015 2:28 pm

Former Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) Dassault (Government Aircraft Factory - GAF) Mirage IIIO fighter aircraft photographed at Whyalla seaport, Australia, on October 21, 1990, before their journey to Karachi, Pakistan.

Serial number A3-87.

Serial number A3-68.

Serial number A3-64.

Serial number A3-15.

A total of fifty ex-RAAF Mirages in used condition were purchased for Pakistan Air Force (PAF) and several of them are in service with PAF after getting upgraded/modified.

For details visit: ADF Serials - Mirage III

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## fatman17

Shaheen 1V exercise

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## Sulman Badshah

alimobin memon said:


> T50 versions with weaponry


we are particularly interested in TA50 LIFT .. it can do light attack 

FA50 version is the fighter

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## Asifkamal

Pakistan can hardly afford one single type of high performance fighter aircraft, after signing deal for 110 jf17 and 8 chinease submarienes.That can be either su35, j10, or F16. Because we are short of money and even for purchase of high performance fighter aircraft, we do,t jave funds for real advance jet trainer....


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## fatman17

Home > News > 2015 > October > 29

Turkey to gift 34 light fighter aircraft to Pakistan

nation.com.pk - 10/29/2015

Turkey will provide 34 T-37 aircraft and their spare parts to Pakistan free of cost under a landmark defence cooperation agreement signed between the two countries in Ankara on Wednesday. Turkish defence ministry spokesman Narita Farhan told media that the T-37 is a jet trainer light combat aircraft and Turkey, on Pakistan’s desire, extended a fleet of 34 aircraft along with spare parts to Pakistan.

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## fatman17

Sulman Badshah said:


> we are particularly interested in TA50 LIFT .. it can do light attack
> 
> FA50 version is the fighter



T50 has key US components and is sanction prone and will require a US NOC


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## fatman17

Turkey Signs Agreement to Donate 34 T-37s to Pakistan
PAKISTAN AND Turkey signed a defence co-operation agreement today,


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## Sulman Badshah

fatman17 said:


> T50 has key US components and is sanction prone and will require a US NOC


Yes US threat is there ... But TA50 don't contain anything more sophisticated than the current US equipment we already have ..


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## black-hawk_101

Mirage IIIs and Vs should be converted in to spares as to be used in their respective models which are upgraded to Rose.


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## fatman17

Turkey has gifted 34 Cessna T-37 light attack/trainer aircraft to Pakistan, with the Pakistani Air Force already operating several of the aircraft. Morocco also operates the type, along with the Colombian Air Force; however the design is old, with its production line closing in 1975.


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## fatman17

Sulman Badshah said:


> Yes US threat is there ... But TA50 don't contain anything more sophisticated than the current US equipment we already have ..



Equipment was sophisticated enough for USA to block sale to Kazakhstan by South Korea


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## Sulman Badshah

fatman17 said:


> Equipment was sophisticated enough for USA to block sale to Kazakhstan by South Korea


it was uzbekistan and last year uzbekistan got 2.5 b usd from russia and throw away us airbase from their country ... that 's why US block the sale


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## Asifkamal

Can anyone tell me exact number of f16 in pakistan inventory. 31 out of initial batch of 1982_85, 14 from 1991_92 batch delivered after 2003, 18 block52 , 13 from jordan. That equals 76. What about news that america delivered 14 warplanes from afghan surplus? What about more jordenian planes? Can anyone give exact figures and whats going on?


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## Sulman Badshah

Asifkamal said:


> Can anyone tell me exact number of f16 in pakistan inventory. 31 out of initial batch of 1982_85, 14 from 1991_92 batch delivered after 2003, 18 block52 , 13 from jordan. That equals 76. What about news that america delivered 14 warplanes from afghan surplus? What about more jordenian planes? Can anyone give exact figures and whats going on?


current numbers is 78 ...


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## Asifkamal

How? And what about second hand purchases underway?


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## alimobin memon

Sulman Badshah said:


> current numbers is 78 ...


Sulman what about those used f16 pak is looking for any luck ?


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## fatman17

Air Platforms

Turkey gifts T-37 trainers to Pakistan

Farhan Bokhari, Islamabad - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

28 October 2015

Turkey will donate 34 of its Cessna T-37 trainers to the Pakistan Air Force, Pakistani defence ministry officials said on 28 October.

A formal agreement relating to the 34 T-37s was signed on 28 October by retired Lieutenant General Muhammad Alam Khattak, Pakistan's secretary of the ministry of defence, and senior Turkish officials during a visit by Khattak to Turkey.

"These aircraft are being given to Pakistan gratis; there is no cost involved," Narita Farhan, a spokeswoman for Pakistan's defence ministry, told IHS Jane's .

Western defence officials in Islamabad said Turkey's T-37 gesture may further consolidate its footprint in Pakistan as a supplier of hardware and advanced technology.


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## fatman17

T-37 trainers to Pakistan



29 OCTOBER, 2015 BY: BETH STEVENSON LONDON

Turkey is to donate 34 Cessna T-37 Tweet jet trainers/light attack aircraft to Pakistan in an agreement signed on 28 October.

The decision followed high-level military talks between the two countries in Ankara, where Turkey agreed to supply the aircraft plus spares “gratis” to Islamabad.

Gen Naveed Ahmed, director general of defence procurement for Pakistan, signed the agreement with Maj Gen Serdar Gulbas, the Turkish chief of logistics.

Pakistan already operates 18 T-37s that entered service in June this year, and the only other current operator of the T-37 is the Columbian air force, Flightglobal’s Fleets Analyzer database shows.

Turkey's air force retired the T-37s in around 2009, replacing them with 40 Korea Aerospace Industries KT-1 trainers that were delivered this year. An additional 15 examples are covered by a letter of intent.

Turkish air force

Meanwhile, the Pakistani air force is offering two Lockheed Martin C-130 transports to help deliver aid to Chitral following an earthquake on Monday, as well as airlifting injured people away from the area.

Pakistan operates 15 ex-US Air Force C-130s plus one former Pakistan International Airlines-operated L-100, Fleets Analyzer shows, with an average fleet age of some 50 years.

The T37 inventory figures are inaccurate from flight global.


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## Aamir Hussain

F-16 procured or given in aid areas follows:

40 F-16A FGA aircraft 1981 1983-1985 (40) $1.2 b 'Peace Gate-1' and 'Peace Gate-2' deal; F-16 Block-15 version; incl 11 F-16B
14 F-16A FGA aircraft 2005 2005-2008 14 Second-hand (but only used 2-4 years); originally produced for Pakistan but delivery embargoed 1988, taken over by USA 2002 and after few years given as aid to Pakistan); aid
18 F-16C Block-50/52 FGA aircraft 2007 2010 18 $1.4 b 'Peace Drive 1' deal (part of $3.1 b deal); incl 6 F-16D
13 F-16(ADF) FGA aircraft (2013) 2014 13 Second-hand; incl 3 F-16B version; $75 m deal
*85 Delivered til the end of 2014 (SIPRI)
*
(Note: Attrition losses : 9 Total does not include 2 more F-16 delivered in 2015.)

If we include the proposed 8 more aircraft then the projected total for PAF would be 86 a/c. About 36 short of its original plan for 120 ship force.

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## Asifkamal

Thanks. So out of 28 made in 1991_2. We have recieved 16. So we can expect 12 more second hand ....


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## shahzad qamar

Is Pakistan made jf-17 now.
Because long time no new jf-17 add to PAF flats.


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## Asifkamal

Pakistan ordered 110 more. Out of them about 50 will be prepared in coming 2 years


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## nomi007

Bird scarer on runway who uses different ways to scare birds away during take off & landing of planes!

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## Sulman Badshah

alimobin memon said:


> Sulman what about those used f16 pak is looking for any luck ?


Pakistan will go for more F16 .. We are particularly looking towards EU nations F16 (they are in good condition and airframe life)

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## Windjammer

Follow


*RSJ_News*‏@RSJ_News

Chief of Air Staff says JF-17 Thunder programme has achieved important milestones. #PAF




5:50 AM - 5 Nov 2015

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## MICA

OLD

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## Aamir Hussain

Mirage III beautiful plane ! Till today no other aircraft has such clean lines

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## fatman17

*Sunday, September 20, 2015*
J-20 and more thoughts on 5th generation projects [/paste:font]
Most recently, a 7th prototype of J-20 project (No. 2016) appeared and made its maiden flight on September 18th. It’s been 9 months since the last prototype had come out, so this new prototype is a sign that the program has not hit any major stumbling block and was just going through the next iteration in its development. As a refresher, 2 prototypes (No. 2001 and No. 2002) came out and flew in 2011. They were probably the demonstrators of this program. Over 2 and half years later, the 3rd J-20 prototype (No. 2011) came out and was followed by 3 more prototypes (No. 2012, 2013 and 2015). They had some major redesign and changes compared to the demonstrators. So they should be considered the first pre-production prototypes and were probably produced in the same batch. CAC and CFTE have been testing them since that time. I expect that more J-20 prototypes will be coming out in the next few months, since they seem to be building them in batches on this and past CAC project. Compared to the last batch of J-20s, the most noticeable changes have been on the DSI bump and the engine nacelle. The DSI bump looks to be a little larger and people have speculated that some EW equipment may be installed inside. From the relatively few changes between the batches, one can surmise that the J-20 design is more or less frozen.

Indeed, there have already been speculations that the first production J-20s will come out next year to be tested and evaluated by FTTC. While I think that is certainly possible, I think it is also best to tamper one’s expectations and expect some problems along the way. Every 5th generation projects so far have experienced some bumps along the way. The PAK-FA project had fire on one of its prototypes and still has not flown a new prototype since. IAF have continually complained recent years about the technology and progress of PAK-FA. The F-22 and F-35 projects are far more open, so there were many reports of issues along the way. One would expect J-20 to encounter similar issues along the way even if those reports only come out in the rumour mills of Chinese military forums.

With everything that we can see, I think that CAC has been doing a great job with the J-20 project. At this point, I already consider J-20 project to be ahead of PAK-FA in both the design and timelines. In terms of design and technology, J-20 looks to be better configured for stealth from most profiles vs PAK-FA. The next generation AESA radar and the rest of electronic suite are already been deployed J-10B/C and J-16 compared to lack of such Russians platforms. Even the next generation missiles (like PL-10 and PL-15) seem to be further along in development and deployment than similar Russian systems. PAK-FA only seems to be using a more advanced engine at this phase of testing. Considering that the Russians started to research on 5th gen fighter jet in the 80s and first flew PAK-FA a year earlier than J-20, this does not speak very well of Russia’s aerospace industry.

For the past year or two, I’ve read numerous articles coming out of India that complained about the technology, cost and lack of their work share in the PAK-FA project. Since then, there was a fire on one of the PAK-FA prototypes when they were giving a flight demonstration to Indian delegation and have not shown a new prototype since. There have also been numerous online posts about the build problems and quality issues with those prototypes. Now most recently, I’ve also seen a report where India is thinking of pulling out participation in the development of PAK-FA and just buying them straight out of Russia. They probably realized Russia was unwilling to share its most sensitive secrets so they needed to devote more of their R&D resources on their domestic project MCA. At the same time, it also appears that some in IAF is favouring for purchase of more Rafael and less PAK-FA. There are numerous components of PAK-FA project like stealth and propulsion, which are not up to par with the standard established by F-22. If the leap in technology over Rafael is not big, then it makes all the sense to buy the more of the mature platform. Of course, that could also create a disastrous scenario for IAF if J-20 and FC-31 turn out to be much better than Rafael. 

If all goes well, J-20 looks to join service in a couple of years. This version of J-20 will be quite underpowered and have to wait a few years before getting WS-15 engine. That would be the next major change for J-20. It looks like the second demonstrator or first pre-production prototype of FC-31 may be coming out soon. I think most people expect some significant changes vs the first demonstrator. In the recent years, CAC has devoted most of its resources on J-20, whereas other projects like J-10B/C have been a little slow in development. SAC is tasked with the development of numerous flanker variants and UAVs. It may not be able to devote the same amount of resource on FC-31 project, so I would expect the progress on FC-31 to be slower than J-20. Even if FC-31 becomes ready several years after J-20, it may still become available to export market at the same time as PAK-FA (after Russian and Indian orders). So I think FC-31 could capture a good chunk of the non F-35 market.
Posted by Feng at 6:15 AM  9 comments:

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## fatman17

DUBAI AIR SHOW

China Touts Stealth Fighter Jet, But So Far No Takers
Lara Seligman,

Aaron Mehta/Staff

China is showcasing the FC-31 fighter at this year's Dubai Airshow.

DUBAI, United Arab Emirates — China showcased its first stealth fighter jet here on the opening day of the Dubai Air Show, but so far the fifth-generation aircraft has no customers in sight.

The Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) is "in negotiations" with the Chinese Air Force to buy the multi-role FC-31, AVIC project manager Lin Peng told reporters on Sunday. Peng declined to say when a deal would be finalized.

Top company officials briefed the media on the stealth characteristics and attack capabilities of the FC-31, but did not take questions from the audience.

This is the first time the Chinese company has showcased the FC-3, also known as the J-31 internationally, although a prototype aircraft flew during the Zhuhai Air Show in China last year. Chinese fighters are designated with a "J" for fighter and "FC" for export.


With J-31 Flight, China Makes a Statement

FC-31 would be the first aircraft of its kind available to global customers who face US export restrictions or cannot afford Lockheed Martin's F-35 joint strike fighter. The Chinese company is trying to pitch the FC-31 as a competitor to the JSF, but at this point it is unclear how successful this will be. The customer lineup appears to be Iran and Pakistan.

The FC-31, which closely resembles the F-35, is a medium-sized, low-observable aircraft designed for "the demands of future battlefield environments," Peng told reporters during the briefing.

Officials touted the aircraft's "outstanding situational awareness" achieved with advanced radar, high maneuvering capabilities, and multi-spectrum low-observability. The plane is equipped with twin engines made in China, officials said — not the Russian RD-93 engines previously on the aircraft.

The FC-31 will carry the Small Diameter Bomb, as well as a variety of guided and unguided weapons, officials said.

The test aircraft has been flying for more than two years, Peng told reporters after the briefing. AVIC is planning first flight of the production aircraft in 2019, with initial operational capability scheduled for 2022. The FC-31 will be fully operational in 2024.

US officials and analysts widely believe the FC-31 design was stolen from the F-35 after reports of a major cyber breach of Lockheed's programs by Chinese hackers in April 2009.


Email: lseligman@defensenews.com

Twitter: @laraseligman

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## fatman17

FC31


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## Jammer

Pakistani jets garner interest at Dubai air show - Pakistan - DAWN.COM


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## fatman17

RIA Novosti cites “open sources” that estimate the flyaway cost of an SU-35 at about $65 million.
What does a F16 C block 52 cost in comparison.


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## niaz

Because of the fact that more than 4,000 F-16’s have been produced, F-16 is the least expensive 4+ generation US/Western fighter.

Different publications give different prices and so many items are involved that it is difficult to compare price offer of one country with prices quoted to another. For example

Israeli paid about $4.5-billion for 102 F-161 (about $44-million per unit) in 1997 dollars.

Understand contract signed in 2006 36- Block 52 for PAF Block 52 cost $3-billion. However these were upgraded Block 52s supposedly equipped with APG68 (v) 9 radar.

Remember reading a couple a years ago that General Dynamics offer to Indian Airforce for F-161N was sweetened with offset agreements to such an extent that it would have cost only $50-million per unit in out of pocket expense.

For comparison purposes, a good guesstimate would be that in today's dollars; F-16 B52 would costs about $50-million and Block -60 about $80-million a piece.

Russian aircrafts have always been cheaper than their Western counterparts; however German Airforce experience with Mig-29 acquired thru unification, showed that due to fewer hours between engine overhaul; total life cycle cost of the US aircrafts was slightly better.

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## fatman17

Pakistan shows interest in Russia’s Yak-130 trainer aircraft

National News9 

Pakistan could become the fourth country to operate the Yak-130 combat trainer aircraft as Islamabad has expressed an interest in the aircraft, an online news outlet reported on Tuesday.

The new outlet claimed that the parties had already held preliminary talks. Quoting industry sources, the news outlet claimed that Pakistan Air Force officials had been talking to executives from Rosoboronexport and Irkut.

According to the report, the Pakistani side has evaluated the flight performance of the Yak-130 and noted its “unique feature of mimicking the flying characteristics of a number of fighter aircraft such as the F-16 and JF-17, which would make the task of transitioning from a trainer to a fighter a lot easy for pilots.”

The Yak-130 is designed for training flying school cadets in piloting skills and combat engagements against ground and air targets specific to fourth and fifth-generation aircraft.

For a training flight, the aircraft can be programmed to suit different weather conditions and take into account the specific type of aircraft for which the pilot is trained – from the Russian Su-30 to the US F-35 and the French Rafale.

Pakistan’s acquisition of the Yak-130 would be the second purchase the country has made of Russian aircraft. In 2014, Russia lifted its arms embargo against Pakistan and a contract for the supply of four Mi-35M transport and attack helicopters was concluded.

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## fatman17

Exercise Sea Spark 2015


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## Paksanity

China-Pakistan fighter said to have found new buyer - Headlines, features, photo and videos from ecns.cn|china|news|chinanews|ecns|cns

AVIC officials confirm signing deal for JF-17 export at Dubai air show.


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## Bratva

J-11 D with rumor Aesa Radar


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## Sulman Badshah

Not written by me ... found it on BD forum

Copy the whole comment 
========================
FRESH inside info, not speculation - sharing what i come to know 

PAF is seriously considering ~40 high end fighters currently they are in talks with UK for EF2000 T3 Blk 20+ with CFT or Su-35S or some version of it with AESA Chinese radar and other avionics. In case if Russia fail to provide in time PAF is working as plan B with Chinese for a variant of J-16. 

one thing for sure that uncle sam 8 - 18 f-16V offer is not considered sufficient by PAF. PAF might got for F-16V upgrade to blk 52+ and get few more of them but they need top end 4.5 gen fighter. with quite a few 5th gen technologies.

Su-35S for PAF is high on the agenda. followed by EF2000 with fall back plan of some J-16 variant for PAF. it seems that PAF is dead serious about this acquisition. 

other news is, PAF is in serious negotiations with SAC to have a JF-31 based on FC-31; if all goes well the contract is expected by 2017-18 to be inducted in squadron operations by 2022-25. 

===============================

one more thing, i asked quite a few queries some informal some direct, *but putting 1 + 1, i come to the conclusion that *

PAF wants EFT with CFT and newer engines, AESA etc. this will help integrate US based equipment. vertical as well as horizontal integration. Also PAF wants source code to integrate local and Chinese equipment. UK seems to be ok so far.UK needs 10% down with rest easy loan payments. roughly 10% USD. to sweeten the deal EFT manufacturer has thrown EJ200 engine local prod and future JFT integration saperately

Russia would not allow US equipment integration but ok with local and Chinese, they need 20 -25% down, roughly 800 mil USD

the issue: there is a very strong opposition to buying British equipment in PAF, after taste of post independence support to PAF i guess, do not know for sure.

total number PAF is looking for 40 with 32 as an option

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## HRK

Sulman Badshah said:


> Not written by me ... found it on BD forum
> 
> Copy the whole comment
> ========================
> FRESH inside info, not speculation - sharing what i come to know
> 
> PAF is seriously considering ~40 high end fighters currently they are in talks with UK for EF2000 T3 Blk 20+ with CFT or Su-35S or some version of it with AESA Chinese radar and other avionics. In case if Russia fail to provide in time PAF is working as plan B with Chinese for a variant of J-16.
> 
> one thing for sure that uncle sam 8 - 18 f-16V offer is not considered sufficient by PAF. PAF might got for F-16V upgrade to blk 52+ and get few more of them but they need top end 4.5 gen fighter. with quite a few 5th gen technologies.
> 
> Su-35S for PAF is high on the agenda. followed by EF2000 with fall back plan of some J-16 variant for PAF. it seems that PAF is dead serious about this acquisition.
> 
> other news is, PAF is in serious negotiations with SAC to have a JF-31 based on FC-31; if all goes well the contract is expected by 2017-18 to be inducted in squadron operations by 2022-25.
> 
> ===============================
> 
> one more thing, i asked quite a few queries some informal some direct, *but putting 1 + 1, i come to the conclusion that *
> 
> PAF wants EFT with CFT and newer engines, AESA etc. this will help integrate US based equipment. vertical as well as horizontal integration. Also PAF wants source code to integrate local and Chinese equipment. UK seems to be ok so far.UK needs 10% down with rest easy loan payments. roughly 10% USD. to sweeten the deal EFT manufacturer has thrown EJ200 engine local prod and future JFT integration saperately
> 
> Russia would not allow US equipment integration but ok with local and Chinese, they need 20 -25% down, roughly 800 mil USD
> 
> the issue: there is a very strong opposition to buying British equipment in PAF, after taste of post independence support to PAF i guess, do not know for sure.
> 
> total number PAF is looking for 40 with 32 as an option



how reliable the poster is ... ?? he has any proven history in such matters ..... ??


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## Sulman Badshah

HRK said:


> who reliable the poster is ... ?? he have any proven history of in such matters ..... ??


didn't knew him .. that was the first time i visited BD military forum


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## araz

Sulman Badshah said:


> didn't knew him .. that was the first time i visited BD military forum


This is as much as we know. We have all been saying that there is a need for twin engined plane. PAF has evaluated the SU35 and the air chief was recently given a hands on demo of the EFT. The EFT is a much more expensive option although technology wise as close to Rafale as you can get. Therefore SU35 remains on top of the list. Here again we have repeatedly pointed out that the SU series will need an AESA radar as it is curently flying PESA which the Chinese can and will provide thereby making integration of Current inventory of weapons an easier task. We have also today heard of Pakistani overtures towards building in house repair facilities for Russian engines which might make life a little bit easier for them.
The US plans are also known and well duscussed here. The possible AESA upgrade has also been discussed . The only thing new is the costing for each plant.
We have also talked at length about j31 and possible induction date and problems that the project could face. The induction in 2022-25 is borrowed from the recent articles and from our estimates
The Chinese J16 offering will be easier if the Russians refuse to sell SU35 to us. So all in all a few tit bits from here and there and the only new thing is the costing.
A

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## fatman17

Pakistan Seeks Joint Plane EngineDevelopment With Russia


14:54 12.11.2015(updated 14:56 12.11.2015)

A Russian engine is being installed in Pakistan’s JF-17 Thunder fighter jet which inspires hope for cooperation between the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex and the Russian engine maker, a PAC representative said on Monday.

Russia-Pakistan Military Cooperation Not Threatening Relations With India

“As we know, a Russian engine is being installed on the JF-17 Thunder and we are looking forward to further cooperation with the engine manufacturer in Russia,” the Pakistani official told RIA Novosti news agency on the sidelines of the 2015 Dubai Air Show on Monday. 
The PAC representative expressed interest in having Pakistani engine specialists undergo training in Russia and their Russian colleagues helping modernize the company’s engine-repair facilities in Pakistan.

The JF-17 all-weather multirole fighter, jointly developed by Pakistan and China’s Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation, is currently being modified with a Russian-made RD-93 engine. 

Founded in 1971 by the Pakistan Air Force, the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex is a major aerospace, defense, aviation contractor and military corporation producing aerial systems for both military and civilian usage.


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## fatman17

Air Platforms

Dubai Airshow 2015: AVIC sets out plans for FC-31 export fighter

Gareth Jennings, Dubai - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

10 November 2015

A model of the AVIC FC-31 aircraft at the Dubai Air Show 2015. Although other aircraft were featured on the stand, officials described this export fighter as their biggest priority. Source: IHS/Gareth Jennings

The Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) plans to perform the maiden flight of a production-standard FC-31 'fifth-generation' fighter before the end of the decade, with full-operational capability to be declared a few years later, a company official said on 8 November.

Speaking at the Dubai Airshow 2015, vice-president of China's National Aero-Technology Import and Export Corporation Li Yuhai said that with a prototype J-31 'Falcon Eagle' having been flying since 2012, a production-model FC-31 dubbed 'King of the Hawks' will fly in 2019 before initial operating capability is declared in 2022, with full operating capability following in 2022.

As noted by Yuhai, this timetable depends on a customer launch being signed up in the near future. Billed by AVIC as an export fighter, the FC-31 has received interest from Pakistan, with IHS Jane's reporting earlier this year that the Pakistan Air Force has a potential requirement for 30 to 40 of the fighters. While Yuhai said AVIC is in discussions with the People's Liberation Army Air Force, he did not provide details.

AVIC's press conference at the Dubai Airshow marked the first time that the Shenyang Aircraft Corporation FC-31 fighter had been discussed by the corporation outside of China. Although neither Yuhai nor any of the other officials present took questions, the press conference did reveal further specifications and characteristics for the single-seat, twin-engine multirole combat aircraft.

As noted by the aircraft's chief designer, Lin Peng, the FC-31 is 16.8 m in length, has a 11.5-m wing span, is 4.8 m in height, and has a maximum take-off weight of 25,000 kg.

The aircraft is fitted with 10 stores points (four internal, six external) and has a loading weight of 8 tonnes (2 tonnes internal and 6 tonnes external). Possible weapons fits include an internal gun, PL-9 air-to-air missiles (AAMs), SD-10A (improved) AAMs, small-diameter bombs, and export air-to-surface missiles.

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## Paksanity

Pakistan Orders 40 JF-17 Fighter Aircraft, Contract signed with Foreign Customer

AVIC press release says Pakistan has signed for 40 more JF-17s. In addition one export customer has ordered JF-17 aircraft (customer and numbers ordered unknown).

Not sure which block is it.


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## Erroroverload

Sulman Badshah said:


> Not written by me ... found it on BD forum
> 
> Copy the whole comment
> ========================
> FRESH inside info, not speculation - sharing what i come to know
> 
> PAF is seriously considering ~40 high end fighters currently they are in talks with UK for EF2000 T3 Blk 20+ with CFT or Su-35S or some version of it with AESA Chinese radar and other avionics. In case if Russia fail to provide in time PAF is working as plan B with Chinese for a variant of J-16.
> 
> one thing for sure that uncle sam 8 - 18 f-16V offer is not considered sufficient by PAF. PAF might got for F-16V upgrade to blk 52+ and get few more of them but they need top end 4.5 gen fighter. with quite a few 5th gen technologies.
> 
> Su-35S for PAF is high on the agenda. followed by EF2000 with fall back plan of some J-16 variant for PAF. it seems that PAF is dead serious about this acquisition.
> 
> other news is, PAF is in serious negotiations with SAC to have a JF-31 based on FC-31; if all goes well the contract is expected by 2017-18 to be inducted in squadron operations by 2022-25.
> 
> ===============================
> 
> one more thing, i asked quite a few queries some informal some direct, *but putting 1 + 1, i come to the conclusion that *
> 
> PAF wants EFT with CFT and newer engines, AESA etc. this will help integrate US based equipment. vertical as well as horizontal integration. Also PAF wants source code to integrate local and Chinese equipment. UK seems to be ok so far.UK needs 10% down with rest easy loan payments. roughly 10% USD. to sweeten the deal EFT manufacturer has thrown EJ200 engine local prod and future JFT integration saperately
> 
> Russia would not allow US equipment integration but ok with local and Chinese, they need 20 -25% down, roughly 800 mil USD
> 
> the issue: there is a very strong opposition to buying British equipment in PAF, after taste of post independence support to PAF i guess, do not know for sure.
> 
> total number PAF is looking for 40 with 32 as an option


aap k moonh mein ghee shakkar

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## fatman17

Saturday, November 14, 2015

China-Pakistan fighter said to have found new buyer

China-Pakistan fighter said to have found new buyer

Source: China Daily Editor: Zhang Tao
2015-11-13 09:210

The FC-1 Fierce Dragon, or JF-17 Thunder, a fourth-generation fighter jet co-developed by China and Pakistan, has found a buyer following several years of speculation and promotion.

The aircraft's developers, Aviation Industry Corp of China and Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, signed a contract with an unidentified buyer, AVIC said in a statement sent to China Daily on Tuesday.

It did not elaborate on when the contract was signed or how many FC-1s are to be sold. The Pakistan Air Force is the only user of the lightweight, multi-purpose combat aircraft, with 60 in active service.

"Now it has a new buyer. Moreover, several potential buyers have expressed to us their strong intention of introducing the aircraft, and they have performed comprehensive assessments of the plane," Liu Yu, deputy head of AVIC's military aircraft trade wing, was quoted in the statement as saying at a news conference in Dubai on Monday.

About 1,100 exhibitors from more than 60 countries are attending the ongoing 14th Dubai Airshow, which opened on Sunday in the United Arab Emirates.

"This plane is an ideal replacement for second-and third-generation fighter jets still in service with many militaries. The FC-1 has ... good capabilities in air combat and air-to-ground strikes, and a high cost-performance ratio," he said.

This is the first time an AVIC official has confirmed the new FC-1 contract.

Air Vice-Marshal Arshad Malik, vice-chairman of the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, said at Monday's news conference that the aircraft demonstrated strong combat capability through various drills.

Forty FC-1s will be delivered to the Pakistan Air Force in the near future, he said.

According to Western military observers, China and Pakistan have been actively promoting the FC-1 to the international market.

However, no deals were made despite reports often emerging saying some militaries were close to inking a contract.

Nevertheless, the China-Pakistan sales team remains optimistic as they still stick to the prediction that in next 20 years, at least 300 FC-1s will be sold globally.

Posted by Coatepeque at 7:02 PM


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## mzeeshanfahd

ahhh .guys can anyone comment on this ..... jets breaking barrier or something else .... I saw it today on FB .... the area is AK


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## fatman17

L15 deal in the works? 

Ukraine is seeking to license produce the Chinese Hongdu L-15 and assemble the fighter craft locally at the Odessa Aviation Plant. The cost and number of planes are unknown but the Ministry of Defense hopes to start production in 2016. While it had been speculated last year that the Ukraine may go withwestern companies to help modernize their forces, the Chinese deal will provide a cheaper alternative. Producing the L-15 will have the added the bonus of familiarity due to its similarity to the Russian Yak-130. The early 2000s saw discussions of the possibility of joint production between Russia and Ukraine of the Yak-130 however recent tensions over the Crimean annexation and fighting in Ukraine’s eastern region has seen an end to any military cooperation. The deal with China will see an increase in the production of the aircraft amid earlier deals with Zambia and Pakistan.


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## Windjammer

Mr.Ivor Ichikowitz of Paramount Group, South Africa presenting model of a UAV to the PAF.


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## Sulman Badshah

Windjammer said:


> Mr.Ivor Ichikowitz of Paramount Group, South Africa presenting model of a UAV to the PAF.


its not UAV .. 

Its AHRLAC light attack aircraft ... good for COIN

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## don boss@34

Wheres paf with stelth staying any idea !?


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## Windjammer

Sulman Badshah said:


> its not UAV ..
> 
> Its AHRLAC light attack aircraft ... good for COIN


Ok, so it's this toy.... doubt it's much use to the PAF.


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## Sulman Badshah

Windjammer said:


> Ok, so it's this toy.... doubt it's much use to the PAF.


aircraft like super tucano's , texan 6 and ahrlac etc are best for anti terrorism operations..... they have very much low operational cost/hour, they are accurate, all weather and can do day night operations


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## majid mehmood

Sulman Badshah said:


> aircraft like super tucano's , texan 6 and ahrlac etc are best for anti terrorism operations..... they have very much low operational cost/hour, they are accurate, all weather and can do day night operations


even k8 aircraft


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## JamD

majid mehmood said:


> even k8 aircraft


K8 is still a jet and it's operating costs would be higher than these aircraft.


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## Sulman Badshah

majid mehmood said:


> even k8 aircraft





JamD said:


> K8 is still a jet and it's operating costs would be higher than these aircraft.


K8 have limitations .. they can't take guided munitions and they have their constraints in all weather day night missions

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## majid mehmood

JamD said:


> K8 is still a jet and it's operating costs would be higher than these aircraft.


 its operating cost is around $900 per hour
while tucano is $500 per hour



Sulman Badshah said:


> K8 have limitations .. they can't take guided munitions and they have their constraints in all weather day night missions


what due mean by guided munitions it can fire pl 5 and pl7


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## Sulman Badshah

majid mehmood said:


> what due mean by guided munitions it can fire pl 5 and pl7


i am talking air to ground munitions for terrorist ..


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## Quwa

Windjammer said:


> Ok, so it's this toy.... doubt it's much use to the PAF.


Depends on how intensive the PAF's CAS coverage needs to be or how much the PA needs from PAF. It's expensive to fly JF-17s or F-16s for around the clock coverage, especially when extended loitering is necessary during an operation. Aircraft such as the AHRLAC cost a fraction of what it takes to fly a JF-17, but they can carry laser guided A2G missiles and 125kg PGBs (with targeting pods no less). It's apparently cheap to buy as well, potentially less than $10 million a unit. If the Army needs sustained CAS support without bleeding the budget, the AHRLAC, Super Tucano, etc would be options.

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## hassan1



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## Zarbe Momin

hassan1 said:


> View attachment 273706
> View attachment 273707


Why PAC Kamra, NESCOM and POF not working on laser guided bomb and laser guided missel, TV IR guided missel, H2 and H4 bombs are there but not picture till yet.


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## fatman17

Middle East North Africa

Pakistan is to keep using the the Russian made RD-93 engine for its series of JF-17 fighters. The confirmation comes after hints made by Chinese officials that Pakistan would revert back to an original arrangement with China but Pakistan Air Force (PAF) officials are happy with the Russian engine. PAF officials have said that improvements to the JF-17 along with the reliability of the RD-93 engine has resulted in a number of interested parties. Russia on the other hand will be happy to see product solidarity due to economic sanctions over Ukraine closing many export markets.


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## fatman17

Pakistan's air force

By CJHall_LE | Posted: November 04, 2015

IN THE COCKPIT: Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman prepares for his Typhoon flight.

Jet fighter pilots and their ground crews who defend British airspace from their base in Lincolnshire gave a top visiting VIP a first-hand experience of their Top Gun lifestyle.

Personnel at RAF Coningsby hosted a visit to the unit by Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman, who is the Chief of the Air Staff for the Pakistan Air Force.

The Air Chief Marshal was met by RAF Coningsby Station Commander, Group Captain Jez Attridge.

He was welcomed to the base and given a brief on the use of air power and the role of RAF Coningsby.



Read more: http://www.lincolnshireecho.co.uk/G...-base-includes-Typhoon/story-28112467-detail/


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## fatman17

China and Pakistan stage joint air exercise

Foreign
SEPTEMBER 7, 2015 BY AGENCIES

The Chinese and Pakistani air forces began joint military training in China on Sunday, a People’s Liberation Army Air Force spokesman said. The drill, code-named “Shaheen-IV” – which means “eagle” in Urdu – is the fourth of its kind between the two neighbors. The location was not disclosed.

It comes at a time when both countries have pledged to toughen their fight against threats including terrorism, separatism and extremism.



PLA Air Force spokesman Shen Jinke said: “The Chinese Air Force is ready to expand the scope and domains of cooperation with the air forces of countries around the globe to jointly address various challenges and crises.”



Shen said that in recent years, the Chinese and Pakistani air forces have conducted a range of joint training and military exchanges.



During the training, the two countries staged war games between the “Red Force” and “Blue Force”, Shen said. The Chinese Air Force used aircraft including fighter jets, fighter bombers and early warning planes, while those used by Pakistan included fighter jets and early warning planes, Shen said.



Wang Xu, a professor of Pakistan studies at Peking University, said the drill was announced amid great transparency and confidence as bilateral political mutual trust had reached new heights.



“We can learn a lot from Pakistan’s training philosophy and system, and as the pressure to fight terrorism mounts in northwestern China, such drills could boost China’s capacity to tackle tough situations,” Wang said.



The Ministry of National Defense released on its website the design of a shoulder patch prepared for the drill. It includes key elements and colors from both countries’ national flags.



In a visit to Pakistan in April, President Xi Jinping told Pakistani military leaders that China and Pakistan should broaden military cooperation in fields such as joint exercises and training.



Wang, the professor, said that as Pakistan is on its way to becoming a new member of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization, the “Shaheen” series provides a potential new model for boosting anti-terror cooperation among the member states.

Did not see many images on the net for this exercise or did I miss something.


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## fatman17

*The J-31 Mystery Deepens 
by James Dunnigan
October 10, 2015*
Recently someone in China anonymously posted performance data for the new Chinese J-31 fighter. This was in the form of a sales brochure (for trade shows) that had not been distributed to the public. So far the manufacturer has been vague about J-31 performance data. This despite the fact that the J-31 has been showing up at Chinese weapons shows. But so far this promotion has been all about looking at the impressive appearance of the J-31, not crunching any numbers.
It gets more interesting when you realize that the recently posted data ascribes better engine performance than actual engines the Chinese have in service or access to. There were also descriptions of J-31 electronics that sounded more like a Chinese wish list than anything the Chinese have or are known to be developing. Many in the industry see this as some kind of desperate publicity stunt. Efforts to sell the J-31 have not been very successful so far. 
In late 2014 China quietly approached some potential customers about interest in buying its 18 ton J-31 stealth fighter. For export customers the J-31 would be called the FC-31 and it was understood that this version would not have all the best stuff the J-31 has. Pakistan expressed some interest, but then Pakistan is the largest export customer for Chinese weapons. Pakistan apparently thought it best to wait a bit because it was unclear how ready the J-31 was for active service. Since 2012 China has been testing the J-31 “Falcon Eagle” (from an inscription on the tail). While it looks like the American F-22, it’s also smaller than China’s other stealth fighter (the 35 ton J-20, which has been around longer). The J-31 was built by the Shenyang Aircraft Corporation (which makes the J-11, the illegal Chinese copy of the Russian Su-27). The J-31 has some characteristics of the F-35 as well and appears to be something of an “F-35” to the earlier J-20s effort to match the American F-22. The J-31 flew for the first time in October 2012 and at that point there were at least two prototypes. The designer has talked of the J-31 being able to operate off an aircraft carrier (like the U.S. F-35 and the Chinese J-15, a J-11 variant).
One advantage the J-31 is that it has two engines, compared to one for the 31 ton F-35. In theory this means the J-31 could carry more weapons, but this is less crucial with all the guided weapons available. Moreover the J-31 is seen using Chinese engines, which are less powerful and reliable, even when two are used, compared to the single engine in the F-35C.
The J-31 is further evidence that China is determined to develop its own high tech military gear. While China is eager to develop advanced military technology locally, it recognizes that this takes time and more effort than nations new to this expect. Thus, China is trying to avoid the mistakes Russia made in this area. That means having competing designs and developing necessary supporting industries as part of that. All this takes a lot of time and involves lots of little (and some major) failures. The Chinese are doing it right and are willing to wait until they get military tech that is truly world class.
At this point the J-31 is scheduled to be ready for service in 2019 and have ground attack as well as air-to-air capabilities.


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## DrWatson775

Alan Warnes


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## fatman17

Just a nice pic

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## Windjammer

*Not sure what's the occasion, however received this tweet, so Karachi boys, start clicking.*
_*
Fly Past by PAF Pilots : Watch PTV Live tomorrow at 11:00 Sonmiani, Karachi.*_


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## fatman17

Pakistan has announced plans to acquire 5th generation fighters internationally and still continue to develop its own line of JF-17 planes. The move comes as regional rivals have been upgrading military capabilities, with India recently purchasing 126 Rafale fighters from France. According to Pakistan Air Force (PAF) chief Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman, the desired choice for the PAF is the Lockheed Martin F-35, but they are also looking at other options. Pakistan will continue to export the JF-17 to other countries with Egypt the latest country to express interest in the plane.

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## nomi007

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1616454168620004


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## SSG commandos




----------



## Defender@@

Saqr said:


> Depends on how intensive the PAF's CAS coverage needs to be or how much the PA needs from PAF. It's expensive to fly JF-17s or F-16s for around the clock coverage, especially when extended loitering is necessary during an operation. Aircraft such as the AHRLAC cost a fraction of what it takes to fly a JF-17, but they can carry laser guided A2G missiles and 125kg PGBs (with targeting pods no less). It's apparently cheap to buy as well, potentially less than $10 million a unit. If the Army needs sustained CAS support without bleeding the budget, the AHRLAC, Super Tucano, etc would be options.


Operations against terrorist will not be a permanent nature of operation for paf therefore there is no need to buy any specializes platform for thia... Africa ia a different where the main purpose is to fight non state actors... Some limited terrorist strike at very low cost will be done through arm drones... So investing in totally new platform is itself very expensive


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## ghazi52

........................................................
*Nawaz calls for deeper air defence cooperation*

In a bilateral meeting with Chinese Premier Li Keqiang, Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif called for "deeper cooperation between China National Aero-Technology Import & Export Corporation and the Pakistan Air Force on international sales."

Nawaz vowed to provide security to Chinese citizens working in Pakistan on "various projects of paramount importance to us", such as the China Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC).

"I am satisfied with the progress on CPEC projects, he said, adding that Pakistan hoped for all the projects under the CPEC to be implemented in a timely and efficient manner.
..


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## Irfan Baloch

Windjammer said:


> Ok, so it's this toy.... doubt it's much use to the PAF.


recon areal artillery OP. and more. can do much more faster and safely than what a ground based party can do.just fly above the known weapon ranges of TTP.

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## fatman17

PAF aircraft exhibit excellent fire power demonstration.

WINDER, Dec 7 (APP): Pakistan Air Force (PAF) aircraft on Monday exhibited the fire power with accuracy and outstanding acrobats in air in the Fire Power Demonstration-2015 at Sonmiani Ranger some 80 kilometers away from Karachi. PAF aircraft, including JF-7, F-7PG, JF-17 Thunder, Mirage Aircraft, Karakoram K8P, and F-16 took part in the Fire Power Demonstration, which was held after PAF Inter-Squadron Armament Competition, after a gap of five years. The Fire Power Demonstration “High Mark” was organized in 2010.

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## fatman17

Pakistan Assists Nigeria with Ammunition, Aircraft Maintenance in War Against Insurgency

16 Dec 2015


Senator Iroegbu in Abujaâ€¨
The Pakistani government has disclosed that they have been assisting Nigeria’s counter-terrorism and counter-insurgency operations against Boko Haram terrorists, in the area of ammunition supplies and maintenance of military aircraft.


This disclosure was made on Tuesday in Abuja by the Pakistani Ambassador to Nigeria, Agha Umar Farook, during his meeting with the Minister of Defence, Mr. Dan-Ali,
Farook said that both countries with shared history have sustained their defence ties for over five decades.


He noted that the relationship in the area of security is further strengthened in the equally shared experience of terrorism and insurgency.

He said: “The two nations have certain similar challenges and opportunities that we share. Over the decades, we have built some tangible cooperation not only in defence, but also in agriculture and science and technology, as well as education.


“But the cooperation with the ministry of defence has been in the area of training, and capacity building among our military, the intervention has been tangible and we will sustain it over the years.”


“I am sure you are aware that Pakistan not only supports the entire anti-terrorism efforts anywhere in the world but most recently in Nigeria and we have been doing a good job in terms of the ammunition supply and maintenance of aircraft and operational worthiness of platforms.


“I am very much aware of the efforts being put in place for defence cooperation. A high level military delegation has been visiting Pakistan and vice-versa,” he added.


Farook, also stated that “Pakistan is willing to cooperate with the Nigeria military in fighting Boko Haram, and also because of Nigeria’s position in the African Union (AU).”


According to him, Pakistan is not only willing to cooperate in building security but also in the power and education sectors.


In the same vein, Dan-Ali said the cooperation between Nigeria and Pakistan has lasted more than four decades, adding that “a lot of things are common to all of us. We also know that we have very common thing especially with insurgency, you have long experience of fighting insurgency in your country, and we look for assistance in that direction.”


The minister revealed that a security team from Nigeria had visited Pakistan to access how Nigeria can train its personnel in fighting insurgency in the country.


“We need to borrow things like the border monitoring and intelligence gathering that you have, with guards looking after the borders. We share a common determination and we share common problems
“On the defence industry, we are working towards bringing you to come and access and assist us in that direction,” he said.



Tags: Nigeria, Featuered, News


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## fatman17

Yester me yester you yesterday


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## SSG commandos




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## fatman17

INDUSTRY

Could Malaysian Interest in JF-17 Signal Export Sales for Pakistan?

By Usman Ansari

Aamir Qureshi/AFP via Getty Images

A Pakistani JF-17 Thunder performs on Sept. 6 during celebrations to mark the country's Defense Day in Islamabad.

ISLAMABAD — Malaysia is considering the JF-17 Thunder aircraft as an option for its air force modernization program. However, despite analysts saying the aircraft is well suited to Malaysia's requirements, it's unclear whether the country will actually buy the Sino-Pakistan jet.

The uncertainty is especially so when considering entrenched opposition from other suppliers already well established in this area of defense sales and machinations by Pakistan's arch-rival India.

Malaysian interest in the JF-17 was signaled by its High Commissioner to Pakistan Dr. Hasrul Sani, who according to the Associated Press of Pakistan (APP), discussed the fighter against the backdrop of boosting the bilateral relationship in general.

Malay-Pakistani relations are wide-ranging, but Pakistani defense equipment sales to Malaysia have halted at anti-tank and anti-aircraft missile systems.

However, Kaiser Tufail, analyst, and former air force pilot, said he thinks consideration for the JF-17 may move to a higher level.

"I think the Malaysians might be genuinely interested because Pakistan has a respectable defense industry, with the products being considerably cheaper compared to the West due to cheap labor," he said.

"These products have been amply proven in the hands of very professional armed forces. These are reasons enough for many developing countries to look for defense hardware from Pakistan," he added.

Malaysia has long indicated a desire to replace its remaining US supplied F-5E/F fighter aircraft, and the MiG-29s it acquired from Russia in the 1990s. This may result in an order for 36-40 aircraft, according to information available on the program.

Though the JF-17 appears to be very well suited to Malaysia's requirements and would complement the heavier Su-30MKM Flanker fighters in service, Malaysian sources indicate privately that the JF-17 may face an uphill battle because European and US fighters already stated as being under consideration.

However, Brian Cloughley, analyst and former Australian defense attache to Islamabad, said he also believes the Malaysian interest to be genuine, but cautions there is more to consider.

"Heads of diplomatic missions don't usually say things publicly that aren't accurate," he said. "So there is probably something in this, in that interest appears to have been expressed, but the devil is as always in the detail, and there will have to be agreement by Beijing to any movement towards a deal."

Coughley added: "If that is arranged it will be behind well-closed doors and nobody will know what the [Chinese] terms are."

News of Malaysian consideration of the JF-17 comes against the backdrop of renewed Egyptian interest in the aircraf and reports of interest from Morocco and Sri Lanka. After years of efforts, Tufail said he believes the JF-17 is on the cusp of achieving export sales.

"I think 2016 is going to see at least three export orders, as the deals are in the final stages", he said.

Though the JF-17 "stands a fairly good chance," Tufail highlighted "the Indians are certain to field the Tejas in the international market in the coming months," in reference to India's own lightweight fighter.

"The marketing tussle is expected to be interesting."

Morocco is reported to have requested that the JF-17 participate in the Rabat Air Show in 2016 amid local speculation the type is being considered to replace the F-5E Tiger II fighters in Moroccan service.

Morocco has already purchased the VT-1A tank, which is a Chinese-produced version of the Pakistani Al-Khalid; therefore, analysts are confident the JF-17 has a good chance based on the existing defense relationship.

Sri Lanka, on the other hand, has been speculated as a JF-17 customer for a number of years, though no confirmation has emerged despite numerous inquiries by Defense News. Pakistani officials said they do not comment on such deals before they have been signed as a matter of policy.

A JF-17 sale to Sri Lanka may not be so easy, however.

News reports from Sri Lanka indicate the interest is genuine, but it has run into ferocious Indian opposition. New Delhi demanded the deal be canceled and any alternative to be purchased instead, and at Indian expense, if need be.

Other reports stated India has offered the Tejas as an alternative.

"The Indians are coming on strong in this," said Cloughley. "They will do everything they can to disrupt Pakistan-[Sri Lankan] military cooperation of any sort.

He cited domestic India considerations in respect to the Indian state of Tamil Nadu "because it's quite important vote-wise" as a major driving force behind this opposition.

Tufail, however, points to a rather more base reason for the India opposition: "[India] has no reason to oppose Sri Lanka for a JF-17 bid, except suffering from a 'sour grapes' syndrome."

Nevertheless, Cloughley said a JF-17 sale to Sri Lanka may not transpire.

"The feeling in Colombo is one of resentment, but I think the Indians' bullying may well work."


Copyright Gannett 2015


----------



## batmannow

fatman17 said:


> INDUSTRY
> 
> Could Malaysian Interest in JF-17 Signal Export Sales for Pakistan?
> 
> By Usman Ansari
> 
> Aamir Qureshi/AFP via Getty Images
> 
> A Pakistani JF-17 Thunder performs on Sept. 6 during celebrations to mark the country's Defense Day in Islamabad.
> 
> ISLAMABAD — Malaysia is considering the JF-17 Thunder aircraft as an option for its air force modernization program. However, despite analysts saying the aircraft is well suited to Malaysia's requirements, it's unclear whether the country will actually buy the Sino-Pakistan jet.
> 
> The uncertainty is especially so when considering entrenched opposition from other suppliers already well established in this area of defense sales and machinations by Pakistan's arch-rival India.
> 
> Malaysian interest in the JF-17 was signaled by its High Commissioner to Pakistan Dr. Hasrul Sani, who according to the Associated Press of Pakistan (APP), discussed the fighter against the backdrop of boosting the bilateral relationship in general.
> 
> Malay-Pakistani relations are wide-ranging, but Pakistani defense equipment sales to Malaysia have halted at anti-tank and anti-aircraft missile systems.
> 
> However, Kaiser Tufail, analyst, and former air force pilot, said he thinks consideration for the JF-17 may move to a higher level.
> 
> "I think the Malaysians might be genuinely interested because Pakistan has a respectable defense industry, with the products being considerably cheaper compared to the West due to cheap labor," he said.
> 
> "These products have been amply proven in the hands of very professional armed forces. These are reasons enough for many developing countries to look for defense hardware from Pakistan," he added.
> 
> Malaysia has long indicated a desire to replace its remaining US supplied F-5E/F fighter aircraft, and the MiG-29s it acquired from Russia in the 1990s. This may result in an order for 36-40 aircraft, according to information available on the program.
> 
> Though the JF-17 appears to be very well suited to Malaysia's requirements and would complement the heavier Su-30MKM Flanker fighters in service, Malaysian sources indicate privately that the JF-17 may face an uphill battle because European and US fighters already stated as being under consideration.
> 
> However, Brian Cloughley, analyst and former Australian defense attache to Islamabad, said he also believes the Malaysian interest to be genuine, but cautions there is more to consider.
> 
> "Heads of diplomatic missions don't usually say things publicly that aren't accurate," he said. "So there is probably something in this, in that interest appears to have been expressed, but the devil is as always in the detail, and there will have to be agreement by Beijing to any movement towards a deal."
> 
> Coughley added: "If that is arranged it will be behind well-closed doors and nobody will know what the [Chinese] terms are."
> 
> News of Malaysian consideration of the JF-17 comes against the backdrop of renewed Egyptian interest in the aircraf and reports of interest from Morocco and Sri Lanka. After years of efforts, Tufail said he believes the JF-17 is on the cusp of achieving export sales.
> 
> "I think 2016 is going to see at least three export orders, as the deals are in the final stages", he said.
> 
> Though the JF-17 "stands a fairly good chance," Tufail highlighted "the Indians are certain to field the Tejas in the international market in the coming months," in reference to India's own lightweight fighter.
> 
> "The marketing tussle is expected to be interesting."
> 
> Morocco is reported to have requested that the JF-17 participate in the Rabat Air Show in 2016 amid local speculation the type is being considered to replace the F-5E Tiger II fighters in Moroccan service.
> 
> Morocco has already purchased the VT-1A tank, which is a Chinese-produced version of the Pakistani Al-Khalid; therefore, analysts are confident the JF-17 has a good chance based on the existing defense relationship.
> 
> Sri Lanka, on the other hand, has been speculated as a JF-17 customer for a number of years, though no confirmation has emerged despite numerous inquiries by Defense News. Pakistani officials said they do not comment on such deals before they have been signed as a matter of policy.
> 
> A JF-17 sale to Sri Lanka may not be so easy, however.
> 
> News reports from Sri Lanka indicate the interest is genuine, but it has run into ferocious Indian opposition. New Delhi demanded the deal be canceled and any alternative to be purchased instead, and at Indian expense, if need be.
> 
> Other reports stated India has offered the Tejas as an alternative.
> 
> "The Indians are coming on strong in this," said Cloughley. "They will do everything they can to disrupt Pakistan-[Sri Lankan] military cooperation of any sort.
> 
> He cited domestic India considerations in respect to the Indian state of Tamil Nadu "because it's quite important vote-wise" as a major driving force behind this opposition.
> 
> Tufail, however, points to a rather more base reason for the India opposition: "[India] has no reason to oppose Sri Lanka for a JF-17 bid, except suffering from a 'sour grapes' syndrome."
> 
> Nevertheless, Cloughley said a JF-17 sale to Sri Lanka may not transpire.
> 
> "The feeling in Colombo is one of resentment, but I think the Indians' bullying may well work."
> 
> 
> Copyright Gannett 2015


All depends on how well ,Pakistan can market thunder in its expected market ?


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## hassan1



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## Shaagird

sorry being offtopic. what is the loiter time of jf 17 with or without fuel tanks?


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## MastanKhan

Shaagird said:


> sorry being offtopic. what is the loiter time of jf 17 with or without fuel tanks?



Hi,

Isn't that the million dollar question.

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## Shaagird

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Isn't that the million dollar question.


used to be a penny....... but then i learnt.......its crucial as hell


----------



## MastanKhan

Shaagird said:


> used to be a penny....... but then i learnt.......its crucial as hell



Hi,

Penny is for the 'thought'---question is still a 'million dollar'.

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## Saifullah

Shaagird said:


> sorry being offtopic. what is the loiter time of jf 17 with or without fuel tanks?


Asalam O Alikum

If it was that easy to tell you how much it is. Its just like asking what is the RCS of any fighter jet, if you understand what i mean by that.

Clean :
Range on Internal Fuel --- ~1800 Km
Range with Fuel Tanks --- ~3500Km

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## Ankit Kumar

Hi everyone. 
Just wanted to know that does PAF operate VVIP helicopters other than modified Mi17s?


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## razgriz19

Ankit Kumar said:


> Hi everyone.
> Just wanted to know that does PAF operate VVIP helicopters other than modified Mi17s?



AW-139 VIP helicopters as well

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## Ankit Kumar

razgriz19 said:


> AW-139 VIP helicopters as well



May I ask how many?


----------



## nomi007

PAF is evaluating* TAI Hurkus*.
The *TAI Hurkus* is a tandem two-seat, low-wing, single-engine, turboprop aircraft being developed by Turkish Aerospace Industries as a new basic trainer and ground attack aircraft.

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## razgriz19

Ankit Kumar said:


> May I ask how many?



050




051




052




053




054





So about 5 of them

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## Danish saleem

so what these serial telling us ?

6-050?
6-051?


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## razgriz19

Danish saleem said:


> so what these serial telling us ?
> 
> 6-050?
> 6-051?



Proof that there are 5 in service. I don't believe anything regarding Pak military procurements until i see it.
So many fanboys shooting flames nowadays


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## Ankit Kumar

razgriz19 said:


> 050
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 051
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 052
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 053
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 054
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So about 5 of them



Thanks.


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## fatman17

Ankit Kumar said:


> May I ask how many?



6 but they are all multi role. VVIP and SAR

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## Paksanity

Pakistan in talks with US to procure latest F-16 jets: Air chief - Pakistan - DAWN.COM

*Pakistan in talks with US to procure latest F-16 jets: Air chief*
MATEEN HAIDER — PUBLISHED ABOUT AN HOUR AGO
WHATSAPP
 5 COMMENTS


PRINT
ISLAMABAD: Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman on Monday said Pakistan is in negotiations with the United States to procure the latest F-16 fighter jets, but did not specify an exact number.

“We are in talks with US defence officials to get some latest F-16s but the deal may take some time,” the Air chief said while talking to reporters after the rolling out ceremony of the 16th JF-17 Thunder aircraft at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) Kamra.

The Air chief said by the year 2020, Pakistan Air Force will say “goodbye to some of its old fighter jets including the Mirage.”

He expressed satisfaction over the production and quality level of the JF-17 Thunder and said it is at par with the F-16 in terms of performance and operations.

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## The Eagle

Paksanity said:


> Pakistan in talks with US to procure latest F-16 jets: Air chief - Pakistan - DAWN.COM
> 
> *Pakistan in talks with US to procure latest F-16 jets: Air chief*
> MATEEN HAIDER — PUBLISHED ABOUT AN HOUR AGO
> WHATSAPP
> 5 COMMENTS
> 
> 
> PRINT
> ISLAMABAD: Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman on Monday said Pakistan is in negotiations with the United States to procure the latest F-16 fighter jets, but did not specify an exact number.
> 
> “We are in talks with US defence officials to get some latest F-16s but the deal may take some time,” the Air chief said while talking to reporters after the rolling out ceremony of the 16th JF-17 Thunder aircraft at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) Kamra.
> 
> The Air chief said by the year 2020, Pakistan Air Force will say “goodbye to some of its old fighter jets including the Mirage.”
> 
> He expressed satisfaction over the production and quality level of the JF-17 Thunder and said it is at par with the F-16 in terms of performance and operations.



News about new F-16s is reference to the same number of 8 that Pakistan was lastly in talks and US Congress was suppose to approve, i think.

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## Khafee

The Eagle said:


> News about new F-16s is reference to the same number of 8 that Pakistan was lastly in talks and US Congress was suppose to approve, i think.


So far, but I sincerely wish there are more


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## The Eagle

Khafee said:


> So far, but I sincerely wish there are more



and there would be more indeed. ACM and team is really working something better then ever before. The progress of procurement and growth of program JF-17 can be seen clearly. If no more 16s then we know, we have the options at last. Almost the right direction with steady movement. 

Pakistan Zindabad

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## Paksanity

The Eagle said:


> News about new F-16s is reference to the same number of 8 that Pakistan was lastly in talks and US Congress was suppose to approve, i think.





Khafee said:


> So far, but I sincerely wish there are more



I have this feeling that PAF is negotiating for a substantial number of F-16s although they are tight lipped and nothing can be said with certainty. I think India's Rafale deal is close to signing and this necessitates that PAF looks for a stop gap 4.5 Gen fighter to maintain the balance. Two units (32-36) of F-16V or Block-61 would be enough to offset Rafale to some degree. 8 units other than this are likely to be Blk-52+ (probably with some special equipment) and aimed at replacing losses occurred over the years. Only time will tell the true story, however.

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## mingle

Paksanity said:


> I have this feeling that PAF is negotiating for a substantial number of F-16s although they are tight lipped and nothing can be said with certainty. I think India's Rafale deal is close to signing and this necessitates that PAF looks for a stop gap 4.5 Gen fighter to maintain the balance. Two units (32-36) of F-16V or Block-61 would be enough to offset Rafale to some degree. 8 units other than this are likely to be Blk-52+ (probably with some special equipment) and aimed at replacing losses occurred over the years. Only time will tell the true story, however.


It does make sence LM is closing F16 assembley lines in near future any new orders is good for fortworth taxes ppl and local taxens .F 16 v will fizzle out MMRCA rafale deal.

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## Paksanity

mingle said:


> It does make sence LM is closing F16 assembley lines in near future any new orders is good for fortworth taxes ppl and local taxens .F 16 v will fizzle out MMRCA rafale deal.



Air Chief did say these negotiations will take time. That indicates issues that need to be addressed. Apparently these would be 1) overcoming political hostility of some congressmen. 2) negating influence of Indian lobby 3) finances 4) Pak government's typical hurdles in defence deals. On top of that getting clearance for latest hardware which will require clever diplomacy. On the positive side there is defence giant to put his weight on our side. They have considerable influence over US lawmakers and that can be worked to our advantage. Let's see and hope for the best.

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## mingle

Paksanity said:


> Air Chief did say these negotiations will take time. That indicates issues that need to be addressed. Apparently these would be 1) overcoming political hostility of some congressmen. 2) negating influence of Indian lobby 3) finances 4) Pak government's typical hurdles in defence deals. On top of that getting clearance for latest hardware which will require clever diplomacy. On the positive side there is defence giant to put his weight on our side. They have considerable influence over US lawmakers and that can be worked to our advantage. Let's see and hope for the best.


Deal will go through for sure i hope i would be good numbers .indian lobby cant do ant thing they go some extent but end of the its bussiness why they care about indians when india giving bussiness to russia .American lawmakers knows that plus high profile GOPs know pak importance and defence needs .LM will play big role so obama Administartion but our govt will play positive role .


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## MastanKhan

Paksanity said:


> Air Chief did say these negotiations will take time. That indicates issues that need to be addressed. Apparently these would be 1) overcoming political hostility of some congressmen. 2) negating influence of Indian lobby 3) finances 4) Pak government's typical hurdles in defence deals. On top of that getting clearance for latest hardware which will require clever diplomacy. On the positive side there is defence giant to put his weight on our side. They have considerable influence over US lawmakers and that can be worked to our advantage. Let's see and hope for the best.



Hi,

Thank you very much for your post---. I have also stated it many a times----have the defense contractor on your side---let him do your footwork.

I don't want to get in the detail of how it works----I have explained it before---. 

Always keep in mind one thing-----use the american expression--WIN WIN SITUATION----do not bring up--it will create jobs----it will bring taxes and money---sometime in a bad mood---one gets pi-ssed off----but everyone likes to win.

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## fatman17

Sweet 16. JFT block II ready for delivery to the air force

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## fatman17

While praising the abilities of the home made JF-17 Thunder fighter, Pakistan’s Air Chief Marshal, Sohail Aman has said that they are in negotiations with the US government to procure some of the latest F-16s. The announcement was made as the 16th JF-17 aircraft was unveiled and handed over to the Pakistan Air Force. Manufactured locally in cooperation with China, the JF-17 has been lauded as being able to compete with the best of other lightweight multi-role aircraft, and has been marketed heavily by Pakistan at recent air shows. While production for export seems to be on the increase, one wonders exactly why Islamabad is looking to purchase foreign made fighters ahead of locally produced ones, as well as planning to retire older aircraft simultaneously.


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## fatman17

*Sunday, December 27, 2015*
2015 Year in Review [/paste:font]
As the end of 2015 draw near, I’d like to take a look at all the important PLA stories of 2015. There are both numerous air force and naval stories. Compared to previous years, there were more news coming out of air force than navy this year as J-20, J-10, flankers and C-919 project all had significant progress.

The major focus of this past few months have been the progress of J-20 project. After 4 new prototypes came out last year with significant changes from the J-20 demonstrators, there was not much happening this year until September of this year when prototypes No. 2016 came out followed by prototype No. 2017 in November. The latest prototype showed slightly reshaped canopy and a new ejection seat, but is generally the same as the earlier prototypes. With these 2 prototypes, there are rumours of 2 more prototypes No. 2018 and 2019 coming out to speed up the testing phase. That has yet to happen, but we have seen what appears to be the first Low Rate Initial Production J-20 showing up most recently with the appearance of No. 2101. Unlike the prototype ones, it is painted entirely in yellow primers. The prototypes are typically sent to CFTE for flight-testing. If No. 2101 is the first LRIP model, then it will probably get sent with the rest of its batch to FTTC for expanding the flight envelope, testing out usage of new systems, developing combat tactics and training manual for J-20 pilots. The first J-10 squad was also established in FTTC before the 44th regiment received J-10. At the current pace, it’s definitely possible for J-20 to achieve IOC or some level of combat capability by 2017. Compared to PAK-FA, I think J-20 is now actually quite a bit ahead. The only major concern for this program is that WS-15 engine is still several years from entering service, so will be quite underpowered for the first few years. At the current time, J-20 is probably testing with AL-31FN Cep 3 engine (that are used for J-10C). Some of the missiles being developed for weapon bay may not be ready yet, but other programs like PL-10, miniature PGMs should be. Not much seemed to have happened with FC-31 project this year, but it has appeared in numerous air shows. For 2016, I will be watching out to see how many LRIP J-20s come out and the expanded test program for the J-20 prototypes. It will also be interested to see if a second FC-31 prototype comes out next year.

At the same time that J-20 has been moving forward, the production of J-10 series have started to pick up again. J-10B development has in my opinion been delays due to CAC focusing on J-20 project, but production level has been pretty good since 2014. There were about 53 J-10Bs produced in block 1 and they have all joined service. Block 2 production has since started and reached at least in the mid 20s. They are supposedly built to the J-10C standard with AESA radar (instead of PESA like J-10B) and numerous other electronic improvements. We are still unsure of all the regiments that have received J-10B/C, because photos normally have their numbers blurred out. Huitong’s blog currently has listed FTTC, 2nd division, 19th division and 21st division as having J-10B/C regiments. From what I have seen, FTTC received J-10Bs first and the old J-10A 2nd division regiment has been receiving J-10Bs. Also, it’s interesting that we have been seeing numerous J-10Bs (without the J-10C improvements) flying with Taihang engine. So I think it is possible that we will see both J-10B with Taihang and J-10C with AL-31FN Series 3 engine produced next year. Based on the recent production numbers, China probably needs to place another AL-31FN order soon.

China also had some more movements with its larger aircraft programs. It received the second refurbished IL-78s from Ukraine (out of 3 on order) and more of the refurbished IL-76s. We also continue to hear more on development of Y-20 and its engines (WS-18 and WS-20). The development of Y-20 will probably complete by 2017 based on its current progress. As I wrote about many times before, PLAAF has large requirement of Y-20 for transport, tankers and special missions platform. I’m sure the LRIP for Y-20 will begin next year, but it’s hard to say when they would be able to ramp up its production to the point where it no longer needs to import IL-76/78s. At the same time, China unveiled the first C919 airliner this year and also finally completed flight certification of ARJ-21. At this point, it seems like C919 is already a great improvement in almost every aspect over ARJ-21. However, it’s going into the market against an extremely capable A320NEO series and B737 MAX series. It does not seem to have any real advantage over those 2 series and will not enter service earlier. In most of China’s domestic routes, it should be competitive with those 2, so I would expect it to capture a good number of orders once it completes flight certification. The big challenges ahead will be to obtain FAA/EASA certification, achieve export orders, ramping up production and completing all of this with minimal delays. This is a tremendous undertaking, but COMAC would be getting a lot of valuable experiences if it can achieve all of that.

Another area of aviation that China has done well on this year is in the field of UAVs. The CH-3/4 UCAVs have been exported to numerous countries (at least Nigeria, Iraq, Egypt, UAE and Saudi Arabia). It has already been used in conflicts against ISIS and Yemen rebels. China had been displaying numerous miniature (50 kg) PGMs and ground attack missiles in weapon shows along with CH-4 UAVs and these have now been tested in real war action. So from these action, it’s likely that CH-4 will get more export orders in the coming years. The WingLoong series has also achieved export orders with UAE and with PLA. Along with these MQ-1 like UCAV program, China is also developing numerous larger UAVs and UCAVs. Those programs are likely developed just for domestic usage and not marketed for exports. It’s unclear how many of these programs will actually see production.

For the Chinese navy, the major ticket item is its aircraft carrier program. Throughout this year, more and more photos came out from Dalian rumoured to be modules of the first domestic aircraft carriers. At this point, I think most Chinese navy watchers would agree that this is the first domestic carrier (aka Project 001A). Over 2016, one of the main areas to follow would be the progress of this first carrier. Over the past year, the intensity of CV-16 exercises seemed to be picking up. Over this past year, Shenyang AC has been producing more production versions of J-15s. There are at least 15 of them now from 100 to 114 and all of them probably have flown off CV-16. In the most recent exercise, at least 6 of them were shown on deck at the same time and as many as 10 were probably on CV-16 in this exercise. That’s a definite step forward in carrier operations from earlier this year and previous years. On top of having more J-15s on board, having more types of combat aircraft and helicopter on board operating at different weather conditions and at nighttime are the next steps in improving carrier operation. Chinese naval aviation has a long way to go in developing its combat capability, so will be sure to continue to see its progress next year. I think it’s also interesting that we have yet to see photos of CV-16 leading a large flotilla with numerous escorts like 052C/D and 054A, so that’s also something to look to see in 2016. The Chinese navy has to do all of this with very little help from other carrier operating navies around the world, so it has been deliberately ramping up operation for the past 3 years. It may take several more years to see the things I’ve listed here.

The rest of the surface fleet programs have also been progressing well like previous years. The 4 new 052C ships have now all joined service as No. 150 to 153. Two more 052Ds (No. 173 and No. 174) have also joined service. The main gun PJ-38 has also recently did a comprehensive round of firing tests. The 052Ds are equipped with the latest VLS, multi functional radar, variable depth sonar and PJ-38s, so they represent quite a major improvement in capabilities over 052C despite sharing the same hull. There are probably at least 5 more 052Ds from JN shipyard and 2 more from Dalian shipyard that are under construction. We will probably also start seeing progress of 055 in one of these shipyards next year. Amongst the 054As, a couple of more joined service this year and more modules have also appeared. They are also installed with the new VDS. The production of 054As has already exceeded what was expected originally, allowing the older Jianghu ships and the 4 Jiangwei ships to be decommissioned. It will be interesting to see how many more 054As ships are built when many have expected PLAN to move production to a newer 054 variant. Similarly, Type 056 corvettes have also continued to be produced in large numbers this year and they are expected to replace the roles of Type 037s in patrol, sub chasers and ASuW. And finally, the 4th Type 071 recently joined service as No. 988. Aside from the surface combatants, the replenishment fleet has also seen a huge boom this year. Most recently, the 40K+ ton displacement Type 901 AOR was launched. This type of shape is significant, because it’s expected to be the primary AOR for China’s future carrier fleet. It is much larger than China’s existing Type 903 class of AORs. Also, it is powered by gas turbines instead of diesel engines on the Type 903 AORS, allowing for much higher speed to keep up with the rest of carrier fleet. It also has more resupply gantries located in the middle of the ship than Type 903, which allows for underway refueling with more ships. At the same time, both HD and GSI shipyard have continued to build and commissioned Type 903A ships. There were 3 Type 903A (No. 960, 966 and 963) have joined service this year. There are at least 2 other one launched and another building. The Type 904 large store ships also had a lot of activity this year. There were 2 Type 904B ships (No. 961 and 962) that joined service year. These additional ships are probably there to supply the increasing amount of activity that China has in South China Sea and East China Sea. So overall, this was a really active year for China’s replenishment fleet. A couple of the older replenishment ships will probably retire over the next couple of years, but the increasing number of large ships joining into service will allow for greater power projection capabilities and also supplying near by islands. Finally, China’s coast guard fleet construction activity has continued this year with some of the largest cutters joining service. There were 12000-ton class, 5000-ton class, 4000-ton class and numerous 3000-ton class cutters getting launched and commissioned. A lot of ships seem to have conflicting roles, but they were originally created for different agencies and for provincial bureaus. I think that most of the programs are nearing conclusion at the moment. Until the next 5-year plan gets developed with similar number of projects, we probably will not see this same level of expansion for a while. As a whole, an interesting year with news from both the navy and air force. I will be looking to follow up on most of these programs next year.
Posted by Feng at 6:44 PM


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## Cornered Tiger

Pakistan Air Force - Air Force Inventory Updates at the end of 2015.

*Fighter Squadrons*

60 x F-7PG (Air Superiority & Close Air Support):-

No. 17 Squadron Tigers (Samungli - Quetta)

No. 20 Squadron Eagles (Rafiqui - Shorkot)

No. 23 Squadron Talons (Samungli - Quetta)
36 x F-7P (Point Defence Interceptors):-

No. 14 Squadron Tail Choppers (Minhas - Kamra)

No. 18 Squadron War Hawks (M.M.Alam - Mianwali) previously known as "Sharp Shooters"
18 x Mirage 5PA3 (Naval Strike):-

No. 08 Squadron Haiders (Masroor - Karachi)
18 x Mirage 3EP (Tactical Attack):-

No. 15 Squadron Cobras (Rafiqui - Shorkot)
14 x Mirage ROSE-III (Tactical Attack):-

No. 27 Squadron Zarrars (Rafiqui - Shorkot)
20 x Mirage ROSE-II (Tactical Attack):-

No. 25 Squadron Night Strike Eagles (Minhas - Kamra)
28 x Mirage ROSE-I (Multi Role):-

No. 07 Squadron Bandits (Masroor - Karachi)
Combat Commander School - Sky Bolts
14 x Mirage 3DL/DF/EL (Tactical Attack & Operational Conversion Unit):-

No. 22 Squadron Ghazis (Masroor - Karachi)
18 x F-16 C/D Block 52+ (Multi Role):-

No. 5 Squadron Falcons (Shahbaz - Jacobabad)
58 x F-16 AM/BM Block 15 MLU (Multi Role):-

No. 09 Squadron Griffins (Mushaf - Sargodha)
No. 11 Squadron Arrows (Mushaf - Sargodha)
No. 19 Squadron Sherdils (Mushaf - Sargodha)
49 x JF-17 Block-I (Multi Role)

No. 02 Squadron Minhas (Masroor - Karachi)
No. 26 Squadron Black Spiders (Peshawar) - 13 x Block-Is & 5 x Block-IIs
Combat Commander School - Dashings
23 x JF-17 Block-II (Multi Role) - 7 produced in 2014 & 16 produced in 2015. (approx).

No. 16 Squadron Panthers (Peshawar)

*Special Squadrons*

No. 01 Squadron Rahbars (M.M.Alam - Mianwali): K-8P (Fighter Conversion Unit)
No. 04 Squadron (Masroor - Karachi): ZDK-03 (AEW&CS)
No. 06 Squadron Antelopes (Noor Khan - Chaklala): C-130, AN-26, Citation V, Harbin Y-12 (Transport)

No. 10 Squadron (Noor Khan - Chaklala): IL-78 Midas (Transport)

No. 12 Squadron Globe Trotters (Noor Khan - Chaklala): A-310, B-707, Phenom 100, Gulf Stream IV (Transport)

No. 13 Squadron (Minhas - Kamra): Saab-2000 Erieye, ZDK-03 (AEW&CS)
No. 21 Squadron (Faisal - Karachi): C-130, CN-235 (Transport)
No. 24 Squadron Blinders (Mushaf - Sargodha): DA-20, King Air-350 (EW/ELINT)
*Other Squadrons*

No. 81 Squadron Kangaroos (Peshawar): Alouette 3, MiMi-171SH (SAR, Transport)
No. 82 Squadron (Sargodha): Alouette 3 (SAR)
No. 83 Squadron Dolphin (Karachi): Alouette 3, MiMi-171SH (SAR, Transport)
No. 85 Squadron (Quetta): Alouette 3 (SAR)
No. 86 Squadron Ababeel (Kamra): Alouette 3, MiMi-171SH (SAR, Transport)
No. 87 Squadron (Mianwali): MiMi-171SH (Transport)
*UAVs not included

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## hassan1

No. 41 Squadron (Noor Khan - Chaklala) ?


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## Cornered Tiger

hassan1 said:


> No. 41 Squadron (Noor Khan - Chaklala) ?


There is no 41 Squadron in PAF


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## RAMPAGE

fatnegotiating said:


> While praising the abilities of the home made JF-17 Thunder fighter, Pakistan’s Air Chief Marshal, Sohail Aman has said that they are in negotiations with the US government to procure some of the latest F-16s. The announcement was made as the 16th JF-17 aircraft was unveiled and handed over to the Pakistan Air Force. Manufactured locally in cooperation with China, the JF-17 has been lauded as being able to compete with the best of other lightweight multi-role aircraft, and has been marketed heavily by Pakistan at recent air shows. While production for export seems to be on the increase, one wonders exactly why Islamabad is looking to purchase foreign made fighters ahead of locally produced ones, as well as planning to retire older aircraft simultaneously.


Why are we negotiating for the F-16s when the ACM is on record saying that our JF-17 is just as capable as an F-16? Isn't that bad for our JF-17 marketing campaign?


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## Cornered Tiger

RAMPAGE said:


> Why are we negotiating for the F-16s when the ACM is on record saying that our JF-17 is just as capable as an F-16? Isn't that bad for our JF-17 marketing campaign?


Sir might be for better payload capabilities ...


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## RAMPAGE

King of Hearts said:


> Sir might be for better payload capabilities ...


Can't be. They can install EJ200 and CFTs on JF-17.


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## nomi007



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## hassan1

King of Hearts said:


> There is no 41 Squadron in PAF

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## Cornered Tiger

hassan1 said:


> View attachment 284465


U increased my knowledge, Thanks a lot


No. 41 Squadron (Noor Khan - Chaklala): Phenom-100, Citation V (VIP Transport)


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## fatman17

Don't exactly know when this article was published but has interesting analysis. 


DEFENCE NOTES

The Air Defence of Pakistan

Columnist Syed Imran Shah suggests high-tech modernisation.

INTRODUCTION
The dominant role of air power in modern warfare has been clearly established. A nation unable to defend itself against air assaults of its adversary would be placed at a serious disadvantage in any future conflict. Air defence especially for nations under threat of military aggression thus becomes a vital element in its overall defence strategy. 
India has a potent air power strike element that poses a serious threat to the security of Pakistan in any armed conflict. To be able to employ this offensive potential, the Indian Air Force would first have to overcome and degrade Pakistan’s air defence network. A strong and resilient air defence system then becomes imperative for Pakistan in order to prevent the Indian juggernaut. This article will address the air defence issues in general with special focus on Pakistan.

BACKGROUND
To carry out effective strike missions against targets defended by complex air defence systems a special mission was designed, called Suppression/Destruction of Enemy Air Defences (SEAD/DEAD). Some specially modified aircraft were used for these missions, which were called Wild Weasels in the United States Air Force. These warplanes have special equipment for the detection of enemy radar stations and special missiles for knocking out these radars, called anti-radiation missiles (ARMs). The first of this kind was F-100 Super Sabre and later F-105 Thunder Chief armed with AGM-45 Shrike anti-radiation missiles, used in the Vietnam War. In the Operation Desert Storm in 1991, USAF used its F-4G Wild Weasels in SEAD role and they played an important role in the destruction of integrated air defences of Iraq. In Afghanistan, during Operation Enduring Freedom, the annihilation of the Taliban’s air defence network by SEAD missions permitted the use of the huge B-52 bombers and AC-130s to carry out devastating aerial attacks with impunity. 
It was the growing threat of SAMs (Surface-to-air missiles) and sophisticated gun systems that caused the development of Stealth Technology. Stealth Technology is basically used to avoid radar detection without flying at low-level and thus escape many air defence systems. In Operation Desert Storm in 1991, USAF used its stealthy F-117 Night Hawks in the first strikes against the heavily defended targets in Baghdad. The F-22 Raptor is a stealth fighter, therefore, all of the weapons are carried internally in the weapon bay to minimize the range from which it can be detected. But it also has the external stores option, which can be exercised once enemy air defences are suppressed and there are no high stealth requirements. So, the heavy blow comes after the destruction of the air defences.
In order to carry out an effective interdiction mission, air defences of enemy have to be knocked out. On the other hand, for the defenders, to avoid devastation of national assets, air defence must be impregnable. Also, any nuclear strike will certainly be easy against the country whose air defences or ballistic missile defences are relatively weaker.

The EW & Arm Threat
Suppression of enemy air defences is carried out either by hard kill method or soft kill method. Hard kill means actual destruction of anti-aircraft defences and soft kill means jamming or disabling the surveillance and fire control radars for a particular time-period so that a strike formation can finish its job. For the hard kills, AGM-88 HARM (High-Speed Anti-Radiation Missile) and other PGMs (Precision-Guided Munitions) are employed. For the soft kill, special EW (Electronic Warfare) planes are used. The EW planes used in Operation Desert Storm were EF-111 Ravens form USAF and EA-6B Prowlers from US Navy. These EW planes jammed the Iraqi radars and provided a safe corridor to the incoming strike formation. The EF-111s have been retired now. The EA-6 can also carry out HARM strikes against radars.
If a radar operator sees himself under attack of an anti-radar missile and shuts down the radar, even then a soft kill is achieved while attempting a hard kill. But the newer ARMs (other than AGM-45 Shrike like AGM-78 Standard, AGM-88 HARM, ALARM etc) remember the last location of the radar when it was emitting, and they continue their attack based on that last updated position of the SAM radar.
Israeli Air Force has also undertaken SEAD/DEAD missions on massive scale in the Yom Kippur war (1973) and Bekka Valley conflict (1982) in which 19 Syrian SAM sites were destroyed in a single day. In April 1986, the Libyan SA-5 Gammon long-range SAM was disabled by destroying its Square Pair radar by US planes firing ARMs.

CONSIDERATIONS FOR SAMs
An ARM basically destroys the emitting antenna of a radar unit, but the incoming strike formation can then destroy the remaining installations by cluster bomb attacks.
So the radars are prone to jamming and anti-radiation missile attacks and then there is no use of radar-guided Surface-to-Air Missiles (SAMs) and radar-controlled AAA (Anti-Aircraft Artillery).
The Indian acquisition of Russian (Kh-25MP, Kh-59) and French (ARMAT) ARMs, and Israeli Harpy anti-radar drones coupled with IAI Malat Searcher 2 UAVs pose a serious threat to our air defence system. Hence, most of the SAMs defending the strategic assets must have multiple guidance methods, e.g., they should have at least two more guidance sensor like Electro-Optical, Laser, FLIR (Forward Looking Infra Red), IIR (Imaging Infra Red) etc in addition to engagement radar to impart them all-weather 24hr capability.
The Crotale NG SHORAD (Short Range Air Defence System) also features this approach and has multiple sensors like radar, FLIR and CCD TV. Both the surveillance and engagement radars of the Crotale NG are frequency-agile. The laser guidance is difficult to jam like CCD TV and IIR seekers. Laser guidance is available in short-range SAMs like Shorts Starburst and ADATS. Laser guided SHORAD systems should be made available to form MANPADS (Man Portable Air Defence System) and DETPADS (Detachment Portable AD System) around key points. The laser guidance allows the SAM to engage intruders at more head on range than simple IR-guided systems. TV-guidance allows engagement of targets at even lower levels than that is possible through radar guidance. 
Long-range SAMs have no other option but to be guided by radars. They can be fooled in their final approach by ECMs (Electronic Counter Measures) like jammer, chaff, flare or other decoys, so these radars must feature ECCMs (Electronic Counter Counter Measures) like algorithms of AMRAAM’s radar to reject chaff and other decoys and to engage the correct target.
The MANPADS should be equipped with night sights to enable them to be used at night. Infrared (IR) guided missiles with Imaging IR (IIR) seekers are also difficult to counter because they can even select the part of aircraft to hit from its thermal image.
A SAM-based air defence system consists of surveillance radar for the detection of intruders and engagement radar for missile guidance. The surveillance radar (which is usually long-range) is difficult to replace with another sensor, but should be made resistant against jamming efforts. It should feature high frequency-agility and all possible ECMs (like operating on multiple frequencies at the same time) to make jamming difficult and keep it functioning. Our 35mm GDF-series Oerlikon AD guns should be upgraded to fire the AHEAD round, which will increase their lethality and SSKP (Single Shot Kill Probability).

DEALING WITH LOW LEVEL AIR THREAT
If the attack formation comes at a very low-level (about 100 feet), like the Jaguars of IAF, to avoid radar-detection and follow it up with a typical pop-up manoeuvre over the target, then the only time to engage them would be during their pop up phase when they will be pulling up in order to acquire the target and deliver their weapons load. During the pull-up, they will try to get a radar lock of the target, and this will be a time to get a lock on them and fire the SAM before they can release their payloads in the following dive.
With the availability of retarded bombs, this pop up phase has been considerably reduced thereby making it harder for the SAMs to achieve a lock on for successful engagement. AAA, with its inherent limitations would then be the only option with the defenders to intercept the raiders before weapons release phase. 
To detect low-level intruders, the best solution is AWACS (Air Borne Warning And Control System). Today, we have many AWACS platforms available in the market other than US E-2 Hawkeye and E-3 Sentry, like Erieye radar on EMB-145. India is also trying to purchase the Israeli Phalcon AEW system and install it on IL-76 aircraft. This capability will be a force multiplier and greatly assist in not only their air defence effort but also their interdiction missions over Pakistan. The Indian raiders would get timely warning of any interceptors during the strike phase thus permitting them various defensive options to avoid getting intercepted. In the air defence role, after the Indian acquisition of AWACS, PAF’s strike formations would be unable to avoid detection even while flying at very low levels. This would seriously compromise its offensive potential.

STANDOFF WEAPONS
Today, the range of standoff Air-to-Surface weapons is on the increase and if the range of an AGM (air-to-ground missile) is more than the engagement range of a SAM, then the SAM site can be easily targeted, if no air cover is provided. With the standoff air-to-ground weapons, the pilot needs not to over fly the target and thus avoid its short-range air defences. So, the counter can be a long-range SAM belt around strategic assets or at least air force fighters should be provided with the best available BVR missiles (which in turn requires a modern long-range airborne radar to operate, even if it has active-radar guidance).
Indian Jaguars have the AS-30L missile, which give them the ability to target Air Defence sites in addition to other targets. Mirage 2000Hs, Jaguars and Mig-27s have been equipped with Rafael Litening targeting pods to deliver LGBs (Laser Guided Bombs) at standoff ranges of up to 64.8km and from a max altitude of 40,000 feet. Thus Litening allows them to avoid the VSHORAD (up to 4km) and SHORAD (up to 10km) systems. 
Similarly, PAF is equipped with AGM-65 Mavericks and LGBs (with Atlis pod) and can use them in a number of ways. But this does not mean that they will always attack from standoff ranges. The possibility may be that they will try to destroy the air defences from a standoff range using ARMs, AGMs and LGBs and then carry out interdiction missions of over flying the targets, on the pattern of Israeli Air Force.
Litening Pod also allows Mirage 2000Hs, Jaguars and Mig-27s to undertake night strike missions over Pakistan through FLIR (Forward-looking Infra red). At night manned AAA will also be not effective and the range of the airborne radars (especially where ground radar cover is not available) will limit the operation of hostile interceptors, which is about 39km in Griffo-7 radars in F-7s and upgraded Mirages. Here the long-range radar of F-16s may work.

AIR DEFENCE FIGHTERS
PAF’s F-7s are a Chinese copy of Ex-Soviet Mig-21 Fishbed, which also forms the backbone of Indian air defence. Therefore, F-7s must match the performance of the upgraded Mig-21bis, called Mig-21-93. The upgraded Mig-21 also features BVR capability in the form of R-77 (AA-12 Adder), which is equivalent to AIM-120 AMRAAM.
The F-16s are considered air warriors of Pakistan, so they must be upgraded on the style of MLU (Mid-Life Upgrade) if possible. These fighters rely on Sidewinders (AIM-9L, P) and must be equipped with some latest 4th generation WVR (Within Visual Range) AAM having at least 70-60 degree off-bore sight engagement capability as IAF has R-73 (AA-11, Archer) missile which has off-bore sight capability along with an impressive range. If the acquisition of AIM-9X is not possible then the possibility of integrating A-Darter or ASRAAM or Mica with F-16s, F-7s and Mirages should be investigated.

THE ROLE OF BVR AAM
The detection range of the surveillance radars is always more than the range of Anti-radar missiles or Air-to-Surface Missiles. This can be used to an advantage in the way that friendly fighters on CAP (Combat Air Patrol) or ADA (Air Defence Alert) be instantly vectored towards the general heading of the enemy formation to intercept them well before the launch range of their weapons or the operating range of their jamming equipment. This means that enemy strike formation should be intercepted at least 50km away from target and any enemy fighter/attacker going beyond this should be engaged on priority basis. Some methods should be devised for identification at long distances, so that IFF (Identification of Friend or Foe) is not a problem and ROE (Rules of Engagement) can be relaxed. Here it becomes necessary to have fighter jets equipped with BVR (Beyond Visual Range) AAMs (Air-to-Air Missiles) of at least 35-30 km range to intercept enemy attack formation head on at a maximum safe distance from a strategic or tactical asset.
With the active-radar guided BVR missiles, our fighters will also be able to shoot down very high-flying enemy jets like Mig-25 recce planes. This is a point where we cannot replace fighters by SAMs or other missiles.

BALLISTIC MISSILE DEFENCE
The next important aspect of our air defence system is against Ballistic Missiles because our adversary has the short and long-range Ballistic Missiles and they will certainly be used in any possible future conflict. Here we shall not discuss a national missile defence umbrella on pattern of NMD programme of USA, but the point defence system or TMD (Theatre Missile Defence) protecting a strategic asset from Ballistic missile attacks, like the Patriot system, whose latest version PAC-3 has proved itself in tests.
The Ballistic Missile attacks can be very successful if there is no defence against them, like in our case. A Ballistic missile defence system may not be able to intercept all ballistic missiles fired upon a target but it is also very difficult to launch many ballistic missiles together on a single target due to many reasons.
No one can guarantee the safety of mobile Ballistic missile launchers.
During war, it will be the highest priority of PAF & IAF to search and destroy the mobile launchers of each other like it was the duty of F-16s and other strike aircraft during Operation Desert Storm with surveillance provided by recce planes, UAVs and satellites. The UAVs are capable of providing real-time surveillance. Therefore, air force planes may hunt some of the launchers. It will thus be very unwise both for India and Pakistan to bring many launchers together for launching a salvo of Ballistic missiles. 
Out of the remaining launchers, it will be difficult to make about 10 or so missile launchers ready at the same time, due to technical and maintenance problems, keeping in view the complex nature of a ballistic missile. Sometimes the situation may not permit to erect and launch a missile, such as air attack or unfavourable weather conditions. 
At last, if one or two missiles are fired on a target, which is defended by a modern ATBM system, then these missiles can be intercepted. These are the reasons that many countries are pursuing ABM systems.

FUTURE PLANS FOR ABM DEFENCE
India is acquiring Russian and Israeli ATBM (Anti-Tactical Ballistic Missile) systems like Antey-2500, which is an improved version of S-300V system. It is effective against Ballistic Missiles of ranges up to 2,500 km with a velocity of up to 4.5 km/s. Antey-2500 missiles will be integrated with Israeli Elta Green Pine radars. India has already leased S-300PMU for training purposes. It is also pursuing its own SAM system called Akash with Rajendra radar. Although many tests of the system failed but the programme is still under development. China has also acquired S-300 system from Russia and is working on several SAM systems.
Iran modified the US supplied HAWK SAM for air-to-air role on its F-14 Tomcats. We can also launch our own programme with help from China. Another possibility may be that Pakistan, Iran and China should start a joint ATBM project. 
The NESCOM setup can pursue a project in collaboration with the above friendly countries to develop a medium to long-range SAM system (which includes the missile itself and associated radars) capable of intercepting both the air-breathing targets and Ballistic Missiles. Its detection range must be at least 300 kms and engagement range of at least 50-40 km. The SAM system should fire two types of missiles, one for long-to-medium range engagements and other for medium-to-short range engagements, with overlapping region in between. ECCM features must be incorporated right into the design. A start can be taken by designing a medium-range SAM system only against air-breathing targets 
(aircraft and cruise missiles). 
USA, Russia and Israel are all working on ABM (Anti-Ballistic Missile) systems. US is pursuing ABL (Air-Borne laser), THAAD (Theatre High Altitude AD) etc, Israel is pursuing Arrow programme and lastly comes the ultimate S-400 multi-layered, multi-missile air defence system of Russia. In future, India may acquire these systems from aforesaid countries but Pakistan may not be able to do so. Therefore, to maintain a balance of power and a strong air defence, we shall have to do it ourselves.

ABOUT THE AUTHOR
The author is a Mechanical Engineer and graduate in International Relations & Economics with deep interest in military technology, operations and history.
Email: shehbazi@engineer.com

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## khanasifm

UK retires ALARM missile; leaves @RoyalAirForceUK without dedicated defence suppression weapon h… - NewsMilitary.com
Matra/BAe ALARM and Matra Armat


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## IHK_PK

Don't exactly know when this article was published but has interesting analysis. 


DEFENCE NOTES

The Air Defence of Pakistan

Columnist Syed Imran Shah suggests high-tech modernisation.

INTRODUCTION
The dominant role of air power in modern warfare has been clearly established. A nation unable to defend itself against air assaults of its adversary would be placed at a serious disadvantage in any future conflict. Air defence especially for nations under threat of military aggression thus becomes a vital element in its overall defence strategy. 
India has a potent air power strike element that poses a serious threat to the security of Pakistan in any armed conflict. To be able to employ this offensive potential, the Indian Air Force would first have to overcome and degrade Pakistan’s air defence network. A strong and resilient air defence system then becomes imperative for Pakistan in order to prevent the Indian juggernaut. This article will address the air defence issues in general with special focus on Pakistan.

BACKGROUND
To carry out effective strike missions against targets defended by complex air defence systems a special mission was designed, called Suppression/Destruction of Enemy Air Defences (SEAD/DEAD). Some specially modified aircraft were used for these missions, which were called Wild Weasels in the United States Air Force. These warplanes have special equipment for the detection of enemy radar stations and special missiles for knocking out these radars, called anti-radiation missiles (ARMs). The first of this kind was F-100 Super Sabre and later F-105 Thunder Chief armed with AGM-45 Shrike anti-radiation missiles, used in the Vietnam War. In the Operation Desert Storm in 1991, USAF used its F-4G Wild Weasels in SEAD role and they played an important role in the destruction of integrated air defences of Iraq. In Afghanistan, during Operation Enduring Freedom, the annihilation of the Taliban’s air defence network by SEAD missions permitted the use of the huge B-52 bombers and AC-130s to carry out devastating aerial attacks with impunity. 
It was the growing threat of SAMs (Surface-to-air missiles) and sophisticated gun systems that caused the development of Stealth Technology. Stealth Technology is basically used to avoid radar detection without flying at low-level and thus escape many air defence systems. In Operation Desert Storm in 1991, USAF used its stealthy F-117 Night Hawks in the first strikes against the heavily defended targets in Baghdad. The F-22 Raptor is a stealth fighter, therefore, all of the weapons are carried internally in the weapon bay to minimize the range from which it can be detected. But it also has the external stores option, which can be exercised once enemy air defences are suppressed and there are no high stealth requirements. So, the heavy blow comes after the destruction of the air defences.
In order to carry out an effective interdiction mission, air defences of enemy have to be knocked out. On the other hand, for the defenders, to avoid devastation of national assets, air defence must be impregnable. Also, any nuclear strike will certainly be easy against the country whose air defences or ballistic missile defences are relatively weaker.

The EW & Arm Threat
Suppression of enemy air defences is carried out either by hard kill method or soft kill method. Hard kill means actual destruction of anti-aircraft defences and soft kill means jamming or disabling the surveillance and fire control radars for a particular time-period so that a strike formation can finish its job. For the hard kills, AGM-88 HARM (High-Speed Anti-Radiation Missile) and other PGMs (Precision-Guided Munitions) are employed. For the soft kill, special EW (Electronic Warfare) planes are used. The EW planes used in Operation Desert Storm were EF-111 Ravens form USAF and EA-6B Prowlers from US Navy. These EW planes jammed the Iraqi radars and provided a safe corridor to the incoming strike formation. The EF-111s have been retired now. The EA-6 can also carry out HARM strikes against radars.
If a radar operator sees himself under attack of an anti-radar missile and shuts down the radar, even then a soft kill is achieved while attempting a hard kill. But the newer ARMs (other than AGM-45 Shrike like AGM-78 Standard, AGM-88 HARM, ALARM etc) remember the last location of the radar when it was emitting, and they continue their attack based on that last updated position of the SAM radar.
Israeli Air Force has also undertaken SEAD/DEAD missions on massive scale in the Yom Kippur war (1973) and Bekka Valley conflict (1982) in which 19 Syrian SAM sites were destroyed in a single day. In April 1986, the Libyan SA-5 Gammon long-range SAM was disabled by destroying its Square Pair radar by US planes firing ARMs.

CONSIDERATIONS FOR SAMs
An ARM basically destroys the emitting antenna of a radar unit, but the incoming strike formation can then destroy the remaining installations by cluster bomb attacks.
So the radars are prone to jamming and anti-radiation missile attacks and then there is no use of radar-guided Surface-to-Air Missiles (SAMs) and radar-controlled AAA (Anti-Aircraft Artillery).
The Indian acquisition of Russian (Kh-25MP, Kh-59) and French (ARMAT) ARMs, and Israeli Harpy anti-radar drones coupled with IAI Malat Searcher 2 UAVs pose a serious threat to our air defence system. Hence, most of the SAMs defending the strategic assets must have multiple guidance methods, e.g., they should have at least two more guidance sensor like Electro-Optical, Laser, FLIR (Forward Looking Infra Red), IIR (Imaging Infra Red) etc in addition to engagement radar to impart them all-weather 24hr capability.
The Crotale NG SHORAD (Short Range Air Defence System) also features this approach and has multiple sensors like radar, FLIR and CCD TV. Both the surveillance and engagement radars of the Crotale NG are frequency-agile. The laser guidance is difficult to jam like CCD TV and IIR seekers. Laser guidance is available in short-range SAMs like Shorts Starburst and ADATS. Laser guided SHORAD systems should be made available to form MANPADS (Man Portable Air Defence System) and DETPADS (Detachment Portable AD System) around key points. The laser guidance allows the SAM to engage intruders at more head on range than simple IR-guided systems. TV-guidance allows engagement of targets at even lower levels than that is possible through radar guidance. 
Long-range SAMs have no other option but to be guided by radars. They can be fooled in their final approach by ECMs (Electronic Counter Measures) like jammer, chaff, flare or other decoys, so these radars must feature ECCMs (Electronic Counter Counter Measures) like algorithms of AMRAAM’s radar to reject chaff and other decoys and to engage the correct target.
The MANPADS should be equipped with night sights to enable them to be used at night. Infrared (IR) guided missiles with Imaging IR (IIR) seekers are also difficult to counter because they can even select the part of aircraft to hit from its thermal image.
A SAM-based air defence system consists of surveillance radar for the detection of intruders and engagement radar for missile guidance. The surveillance radar (which is usually long-range) is difficult to replace with another sensor, but should be made resistant against jamming efforts. It should feature high frequency-agility and all possible ECMs (like operating on multiple frequencies at the same time) to make jamming difficult and keep it functioning. Our 35mm GDF-series Oerlikon AD guns should be upgraded to fire the AHEAD round, which will increase their lethality and SSKP (Single Shot Kill Probability).

DEALING WITH LOW LEVEL AIR THREAT
If the attack formation comes at a very low-level (about 100 feet), like the Jaguars of IAF, to avoid radar-detection and follow it up with a typical pop-up manoeuvre over the target, then the only time to engage them would be during their pop up phase when they will be pulling up in order to acquire the target and deliver their weapons load. During the pull-up, they will try to get a radar lock of the target, and this will be a time to get a lock on them and fire the SAM before they can release their payloads in the following dive.
With the availability of retarded bombs, this pop up phase has been considerably reduced thereby making it harder for the SAMs to achieve a lock on for successful engagement. AAA, with its inherent limitations would then be the only option with the defenders to intercept the raiders before weapons release phase. 
To detect low-level intruders, the best solution is AWACS (Air Borne Warning And Control System). Today, we have many AWACS platforms available in the market other than US E-2 Hawkeye and E-3 Sentry, like Erieye radar on EMB-145. India is also trying to purchase the Israeli Phalcon AEW system and install it on IL-76 aircraft. This capability will be a force multiplier and greatly assist in not only their air defence effort but also their interdiction missions over Pakistan. The Indian raiders would get timely warning of any interceptors during the strike phase thus permitting them various defensive options to avoid getting intercepted. In the air defence role, after the Indian acquisition of AWACS, PAF’s strike formations would be unable to avoid detection even while flying at very low levels. This would seriously compromise its offensive potential.

STANDOFF WEAPONS
Today, the range of standoff Air-to-Surface weapons is on the increase and if the range of an AGM (air-to-ground missile) is more than the engagement range of a SAM, then the SAM site can be easily targeted, if no air cover is provided. With the standoff air-to-ground weapons, the pilot needs not to over fly the target and thus avoid its short-range air defences. So, the counter can be a long-range SAM belt around strategic assets or at least air force fighters should be provided with the best available BVR missiles (which in turn requires a modern long-range airborne radar to operate, even if it has active-radar guidance).
Indian Jaguars have the AS-30L missile, which give them the ability to target Air Defence sites in addition to other targets. Mirage 2000Hs, Jaguars and Mig-27s have been equipped with Rafael Litening targeting pods to deliver LGBs (Laser Guided Bombs) at standoff ranges of up to 64.8km and from a max altitude of 40,000 feet. Thus Litening allows them to avoid the VSHORAD (up to 4km) and SHORAD (up to 10km) systems. 
Similarly, PAF is equipped with AGM-65 Mavericks and LGBs (with Atlis pod) and can use them in a number of ways. But this does not mean that they will always attack from standoff ranges. The possibility may be that they will try to destroy the air defences from a standoff range using ARMs, AGMs and LGBs and then carry out interdiction missions of over flying the targets, on the pattern of Israeli Air Force.
Litening Pod also allows Mirage 2000Hs, Jaguars and Mig-27s to undertake night strike missions over Pakistan through FLIR (Forward-looking Infra red). At night manned AAA will also be not effective and the range of the airborne radars (especially where ground radar cover is not available) will limit the operation of hostile interceptors, which is about 39km in Griffo-7 radars in F-7s and upgraded Mirages. Here the long-range radar of F-16s may work.

AIR DEFENCE FIGHTERS
PAF’s F-7s are a Chinese copy of Ex-Soviet Mig-21 Fishbed, which also forms the backbone of Indian air defence. Therefore, F-7s must match the performance of the upgraded Mig-21bis, called Mig-21-93. The upgraded Mig-21 also features BVR capability in the form of R-77 (AA-12 Adder), which is equivalent to AIM-120 AMRAAM.
The F-16s are considered air warriors of Pakistan, so they must be upgraded on the style of MLU (Mid-Life Upgrade) if possible. These fighters rely on Sidewinders (AIM-9L, P) and must be equipped with some latest 4th generation WVR (Within Visual Range) AAM having at least 70-60 degree off-bore sight engagement capability as IAF has R-73 (AA-11, Archer) missile which has off-bore sight capability along with an impressive range. If the acquisition of AIM-9X is not possible then the possibility of integrating A-Darter or ASRAAM or Mica with F-16s, F-7s and Mirages should be investigated.

THE ROLE OF BVR AAM
The detection range of the surveillance radars is always more than the range of Anti-radar missiles or Air-to-Surface Missiles. This can be used to an advantage in the way that friendly fighters on CAP (Combat Air Patrol) or ADA (Air Defence Alert) be instantly vectored towards the general heading of the enemy formation to intercept them well before the launch range of their weapons or the operating range of their jamming equipment. This means that enemy strike formation should be intercepted at least 50km away from target and any enemy fighter/attacker going beyond this should be engaged on priority basis. Some methods should be devised for identification at long distances, so that IFF (Identification of Friend or Foe) is not a problem and ROE (Rules of Engagement) can be relaxed. Here it becomes necessary to have fighter jets equipped with BVR (Beyond Visual Range) AAMs (Air-to-Air Missiles) of at least 35-30 km range to intercept enemy attack formation head on at a maximum safe distance from a strategic or tactical asset.
With the active-radar guided BVR missiles, our fighters will also be able to shoot down very high-flying enemy jets like Mig-25 recce planes. This is a point where we cannot replace fighters by SAMs or other missiles.

BALLISTIC MISSILE DEFENCE
The next important aspect of our air defence system is against Ballistic Missiles because our adversary has the short and long-range Ballistic Missiles and they will certainly be used in any possible future conflict. Here we shall not discuss a national missile defence umbrella on pattern of NMD programme of USA, but the point defence system or TMD (Theatre Missile Defence) protecting a strategic asset from Ballistic missile attacks, like the Patriot system, whose latest version PAC-3 has proved itself in tests.
The Ballistic Missile attacks can be very successful if there is no defence against them, like in our case. A Ballistic missile defence system may not be able to intercept all ballistic missiles fired upon a target but it is also very difficult to launch many ballistic missiles together on a single target due to many reasons.
No one can guarantee the safety of mobile Ballistic missile launchers.
During war, it will be the highest priority of PAF & IAF to search and destroy the mobile launchers of each other like it was the duty of F-16s and other strike aircraft during Operation Desert Storm with surveillance provided by recce planes, UAVs and satellites. The UAVs are capable of providing real-time surveillance. Therefore, air force planes may hunt some of the launchers. It will thus be very unwise both for India and Pakistan to bring many launchers together for launching a salvo of Ballistic missiles. 
Out of the remaining launchers, it will be difficult to make about 10 or so missile launchers ready at the same time, due to technical and maintenance problems, keeping in view the complex nature of a ballistic missile. Sometimes the situation may not permit to erect and launch a missile, such as air attack or unfavourable weather conditions. 
At last, if one or two missiles are fired on a target, which is defended by a modern ATBM system, then these missiles can be intercepted. These are the reasons that many countries are pursuing ABM systems.

FUTURE PLANS FOR ABM DEFENCE
India is acquiring Russian and Israeli ATBM (Anti-Tactical Ballistic Missile) systems like Antey-2500, which is an improved version of S-300V system. It is effective against Ballistic Missiles of ranges up to 2,500 km with a velocity of up to 4.5 km/s. Antey-2500 missiles will be integrated with Israeli Elta Green Pine radars. India has already leased S-300PMU for training purposes. It is also pursuing its own SAM system called Akash with Rajendra radar. Although many tests of the system failed but the programme is still under development. China has also acquired S-300 system from Russia and is working on several SAM systems.
Iran modified the US supplied HAWK SAM for air-to-air role on its F-14 Tomcats. We can also launch our own programme with help from China. Another possibility may be that Pakistan, Iran and China should start a joint ATBM project. 
The NESCOM setup can pursue a project in collaboration with the above friendly countries to develop a medium to long-range SAM system (which includes the missile itself and associated radars) capable of intercepting both the air-breathing targets and Ballistic Missiles. Its detection range must be at least 300 kms and engagement range of at least 50-40 km. The SAM system should fire two types of missiles, one for long-to-medium range engagements and other for medium-to-short range engagements, with overlapping region in between. ECCM features must be incorporated right into the design. A start can be taken by designing a medium-range SAM system only against air-breathing targets 
(aircraft and cruise missiles). 
USA, Russia and Israel are all working on ABM (Anti-Ballistic Missile) systems. US is pursuing ABL (Air-Borne laser), THAAD (Theatre High Altitude AD) etc, Israel is pursuing Arrow programme and lastly comes the ultimate S-400 multi-layered, multi-missile air defence system of Russia. In future, India may acquire these systems from aforesaid countries but Pakistan may not be able to do so. Therefore, to maintain a balance of power and a strong air defence, we shall have to do it ourselves.


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## hassan1

King of Hearts said:


> U increased my knowledge, Thanks a lot
> 
> 
> No. 41 Squadron (Noor Khan - Chaklala): Phenom-100, Citation V (VIP Transport)


 also y-12 harbin

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## Cornered Tiger

hassan1 said:


> also y-12 harbin
> View attachment 284633


Actually
No. 06 Squadron Antelopes (Noor Khan - Chaklala): C-130, AN-26, Citation V, Harbin Y-12 (Transport)
No. 12 Squadron Globe Trotters (Noor Khan - Chaklala): A-310, B-707, Phenom 100, Gulf Stream IV (Transport)
and 
No. 41 Squadron (Noor Khan - Chaklala): Phenom-100, Citation V (VIP Transport)

all base in Nur Khan, So very difficult to call which one is part of which one..


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## syed_yusuf

No 12 and 41 looks like a VIP squadrons 

What squadron is cn235


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## araz

*India’s arms deal with US a hurdle in way of peace, says senator*
APP — Published about 12 hours ago



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ISLAMABAD: The Chairman of the Senate standing committee on defence production, retired Lt Gen Abdul Qayyum, has said that India’s arms deal with the United States can create a big hurdle in the way of regional peace because it will trigger an arms race.

“India is using the entire lot of mechanised arms and attack formations procured under the deal at Pakistan’s eastern border,” he said. “(In response) we have strengthened our tactical nuclear capability, attracting attention of the world which has recognised Pakistan to be number three in this field after Russia and America.”

“However, Pakistan’s nuclear capability is defensive having no offensive designs against any one; rather it is for peace in the South Asian region,” the former general said while speaking at the APP Forum.

Answering a question on Pakistan-India talks, he said the two countries should pursue the policy of co-existence and find out an amicable solution to the Kashmir dispute in line with the United Nations resolutions.

*Awacs damaged in terrorist attack repaired despite supplier’s refusal*
“The key to success of dialogue is with New Delhi and India needs a leader like Nelson Mandela who always worked for the suffering humanity, setting aside personal interests.”

Mr Qayyum, who has served as chairman of the Pakistan Ordnance Factory, said the country was self-sufficient in developing defence products of good quality and met requirements of its armed forces indigenously.

*“The quality of the country’s defence production is second to none in the world. It is evident from the fact that two Awacs (Airborne Warning and Control System) damaged in a terrorist attack on Kamra airbase have been locally repaired at a minimum cost though the supplier had refused to repair the aircraft because of the severity of the damage,” he said. *

Prime responsibility of defence production departments, Senator Qayyum said, was to fulfil the needs of the armed forces. The surplus capacity is being utilised to produce items for exports.

He said there was immense potential to increase export of defence articles whether they were JF-17 Thunder, Super Mushak or military trainer aircraft.

The country is also self-sufficient in making small arms and ammunition like mortar bombs, G-3 rifles, grenades and artillery and tank ammunition ranging from 200 to 2,500 pounds shots.

About the controversy over Rangers’ powers for carrying out the targeted operation in Karachi, he said Article 148 of the constitution allowed the federal government to make such deployments in provinces in case of foreign aggression or internal turmoil, because it was a ‘constitutional duty’ of the centre.

To another query, he said Pakistan had exemplary relations with Saudi Arabia and would extend all possible assistance to it in case of any threat to its sovereignty. “However, issues should be resolved through political means,” he added.

Mr Qayyum, who has also worked as chairman of the Pakistan Steel Mills (PSM), said that public sector corporations should be made more efficient and only those entities should be considered for privatisation, which were consistently running in loss.

During his tenure in the PSM, he recalled, he had cleared its Rs8 billion debt and made the unit a profit-earning entity with zero liability. Its production capacity was being increased from 1 million ton to 3m tons.

_Published in Dawn, January 4th, 2016_
I am royally pissed off. PAF in its sneaky way has just let the cat out of the bag. This is not deception but sheer lying to the public. Someone needs to answer to the public about what actually happened and why the defences were so laid back. My sincere apologies to those posters who kept telling us other wise while we stupidly believed the official sources.
A
A

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## hassan1

King of Hearts said:


> Actually
> No. 06 Squadron Antelopes (Noor Khan - Chaklala): C-130, AN-26, Citation V, Harbin Y-12 (Transport)
> No. 12 Squadron Globe Trotters (Noor Khan - Chaklala): A-310, B-707, Phenom 100, Gulf Stream IV (Transport)
> and
> No. 41 Squadron (Noor Khan - Chaklala): Phenom-100, Citation V (VIP Transport)
> 
> all base in Nur Khan, So very difficult to call which one is part of which one..



and Cessna citizen XL



?

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## Cornered Tiger

hassan1 said:


> and Cessna citizen XL
> View attachment 284869
> ?


I guess Its a VIP plane, How many in service ???



syed_yusuf said:


> What squadron is cn235


Its the No. 21 Squadron based in Faisal - Karachi


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## fatman17

The recent heavy promotion by Pakistan of its indigenously produced JF-17 fighter has led to claims that export orders are on the increase. Despite this, Sri Lanka has claimed that it has not made a decision on whether they are to purchase the aircraft for themselves. Recent weeks have seen much ink used in reporting interest in the aircraft by both the Sri Lankan and Indonesian air forces, but as of yet, no official confirmation for orders have been issued. The JF-17 Thunder is co-produced between Pakistan and China’s Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation.

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## araz

fatman17 said:


> The recent heavy promotion by Pakistan of its indigenously produced JF-17 fighter has led to claims that export orders are on the increase. Despite this, Sri Lanka has claimed that it has not made a decision on whether they are to purchase the aircraft for themselves. Recent weeks have seen much ink used in reporting interest in the aircraft by both the Sri Lankan and Indonesian air forces, but as of yet, no official confirmation for orders have been issued. The JF-17 Thunder is co-produced between Pakistan and China’s Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation.


We need to count the chickens once they have hatched. A lot can go wrong during the egg turning into a chicken.This is typical pakistani mentality. Someone says hello to you, they want to do a deal, someone shakes your hand they have done the deal. People need to understand it is not over till it is in the bag.


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## Deltaviper

araz said:


> We need to count the chickens once they have hatched. A lot can go wrong during the egg turning into a chicken.This is typical pakistani mentality. Someone says hello to you, they want to do a deal, someone shakes your hand they have done the deal. People need to understand it is not over till it is in the bag.



so let's start with the 8 chicken which just hatched

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## The Eagle




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## fatman17

Pakistan to sell JF-17 Thunder aircraft to Sri Lanka

Agencies	January 05, 2016, 8:47 pm

COLOMBO – Pakistan to sell eight combat JF-17 Thunder aircraft to Sri Lanka under an agreement signed during Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif’s visit on Tuesday.


The multi-roll fighter aircraft is the joint production of Pakistan and China.


Defence officials accompanying the prime minister said that both countries signed eight agreements related to defence, security, anti-terrorism, trade and science and technology and Pakistan would provide eight JF-17 fighter jets to Sri Lanka at the first phase.


Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif and Sri Lankan President Maithripala Sirisena were present at the ceremony of signing agreements.


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## Paksanity

fatman17 said:


> Pakistan to sell JF-17 Thunder aircraft to Sri Lanka
> 
> Agencies	January 05, 2016, 8:47 pm
> 
> COLOMBO – Pakistan to sell eight combat JF-17 Thunder aircraft to Sri Lanka under an agreement signed during Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif’s visit on Tuesday.
> 
> 
> The multi-roll fighter aircraft is the joint production of Pakistan and China.
> 
> 
> Defence officials accompanying the prime minister said that both countries signed eight agreements related to defence, security, anti-terrorism, trade and science and technology and Pakistan would provide eight JF-17 fighter jets to Sri Lanka at the first phase.
> 
> 
> Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif and Sri Lankan President Maithripala Sirisena were present at the ceremony of signing agreements.



Sir, how authentic is this news? There is some confusion as no official source or a credible one yet confirmed it.


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## araz

Deltaviper said:


> so let's start with the 8 chicken which just hatched


Hurray. Iam very happy now that the news is confirmed.
A

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## M.AsfandYar

araz said:


> Hurray. Iam very happy now that the news is confirmed.
> A


Is it really confirmed????


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## fatman17

Industry

Nigeria to become first JF-17 export operator

Jeremy Binnie, London - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

05 January 2016

Nigeria's plans to acquire three CAC/PAC JF-17 Thunder multirole fighters in 2016, Nigeria's Punch newspaper reported on 6 January.

Citing a leaked copy of the budget, Punch reported that NGN5 billion (USD25 million) has been allocated for the acquisition of the three JF-17s, NGN2.06 billion for 10 PAC Super Mushshak basic trainers, and NGN11.6 for two Mi-35M helicopters.

Jointly developed by the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) and Chengdu Aircraft Corporation (CAC), the JF-17 is currently only in service with Pakistan. IHS Jane's reported in December 2014 that Nigeria was finalising a JF-17 order, but a deal was not subsequently confirmed.


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## fatman17

Pakistan to sell JF -17 to Sri Lanka

By Usman Ansari

Aamir Qureshi/AFP via Getty Images

A Pakistani JF-17 Thunder performs on Sept. 6 during celebrations to mark the country's Defense Day in Islamabad.

ISLAMABAD — Pakistan and Sri Lanka have signed an agreement for an initial eight JF-17 Thunder multirole combat aircraft. The agreement comes amid Pakistani and Sri Lankan efforts to boost defense co-operation, and in the face of heavy Indian opposition.

The news broke late Tuesday on the second day of Pakistani Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif's three-day visit to Colombo. It had been widely speculated Sri Lanka would sign a deal for the JF-17 to start replacing its current fleet of Chengdu F-7, IAI Kfir and MiG-27 aircraft.

India has lobbied long and hard against the deal that has been speculated for some years now. It even reportedly offered its own HAL Tejas Light Combat Aircraft in place of the JF-17. 

However, media reports citing diplomatic officials state Sri Lanka will try assuaging New Delhi's anger with warship orders from Indian shipyards.

There has been no official confirmation of the deal, though it has been widely reported.

No comment was forthcoming from the JF-17 sales and marketing team when contacted. Officials here do not comment on defense deals before they have been signed, and the lack of official confirmation underlines that though something has been agreed to, it is not yet a legal contract. 

Author, analysts and former air force pilot Kaiser Tufail believes it is best to wait until some official comment has been made to confirm the deal as things are not yet certain.

Nevertheless, analyst, author and former Australian defense attache to Islamabad Brian Cloughley was expecting some progress at least on a JF-17 deal, as well as the likely Indian response.

"I thought that [Nawaz Sharif's] visit might produce something. And I'm not surprised at the Indian reaction [if that story is true]", he said.

Considering the state of Sri Lanka's frontline aircraft, which Cloughley says are "all long in tooth" with "very low" serviceability, he believes should this initial order go ahead "further orders almost certain."

While it appears the JF-17 may now start carving its niche in the export market, Tufail believes India's Tejas might struggle, in contrast. 

The Sri Lankans themselves are reported to have pointed out the Tejas is not even yet in service in India. Tufail agrees, however, that Tejas' US-origin engine coupled with US sanctions against those nations, including Sri Lanka, deemed to be human rights violators by Washington mean the Tejas "would be a hard sell for India."

In contrast, he says the threat of Western sanctions does not hover over the JF-17.

"Luckily the JF-17 has no major Western components and it can survive any such restrictions; this aspect in particular makes it attractive to developing countries who have run afoul of USA", he said.

Adding, "The Tejas, for these very reasons, is likely to face similar hurdles, and for the present, I do not see it taking off in any spectacular way."

The JF-17 agreement was also signed with others to further defense production and security as both sides push for closer and more wide ranging relationship. 

After talks with the Sri Lankan president and prime minister, Sharif is reported to have made a statement in which he said, “I conveyed our desire for more frequent port calls, participation in military exercises and defense seminars and training of military personnel.”

Cloughley believes this will generally build upon the existing defense relationship, and also could enable wider exports of Pakistani defense products. 

"[Pakistan Ordnance Factories] supplied Sri Lanka with ammunition during the campaign against the [Tamil Tigers], and it is likely that such arrangements continue in a modest fashion", he said. "There is much scope for expansion of cooperation, especially as many of POF's products are world class but very much cheaper than equivalent material from western manufacturers."

Adding, "This could be an opportunity for [Heavy Industries Taxila] to export some of its armored vehicles," in reference to Pakistan's state-owned armored fighting vehicle manufacturer.

As to whether India would ultimately accept the JF-17 deal if the Sri Lankans balanced it out with warship orders from Indian shipyards, Cloughley believes this unlikely. But, he notes, New Delhi will have to accept reality as China is also involved.

"Delhi will not be placated at all, but will have to accept the facts of life as regards Sri Lankan economic and military cooperation with China and Pakistan. China is spreading its wings significantly in the region, and it is hardly coincidental that Pakistan, China's 'all weather friend' according to President Xi, is following Beijing to Colombo," he said.

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## fatman17

Despite the recent rounds of rumors and will-they-won’t-theys, Sri Lanka looks set to purchase eight JF-17 fighters from Pakistan according to Pakistani news sources. Officials to Pakistan’s Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif said that a number of agreements were signed between both nations on his visit to Colombo on Tuesday. The agreements cover a wide range of defense, security, trade and counter-terrorism issues and included the provision of the aircraft to Sri Lanka.

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## hassan1



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## fatman17

Africa

Funding has been set aside for the Nigerian government to purchase three JF-17 aircraft. $25 million has been set aside for the acquisitions. The planned purchase of the Sino-Pakistan developed jet was announced as part of the federal governments defense budget for the 2016 fiscal year and follows the recent order by Sri Lanka for eight JF-17s. Funds have also been set aside to acquire two Mi-35 gunships ($58.2 million) and ten Mushak trainer aircraft ($10.3 million). The Nigerian Army will see $28 million spent on new equipment and trucks for armed personnel as they conduct operations against Boko Haram militants in the north of the country.


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## Curious_Guy

What does the letters on the tail of a jet mean .e.g 14739

Thank you 

@fatman17 @Windjammer @Zarvan


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## Windjammer

Curious_Guy said:


> What does the letters on the tail of a jet mean .e.g 14739
> 
> Thank you
> 
> @fatman17 @Windjammer @Zarvan


Something like this.

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## Curious_Guy

I meant I read somewhere its like 1 for year 47 for block 39 for jet number something like that



Windjammer said:


> Something like this.


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## Windjammer

Curious_Guy said:


> I meant I read somewhere its like 1 for year 47 for block 39 for jet number something like that


Not sure about the rest but for PAF's F-16s, the pre-fix is for year of manufacture followed by aircraft serial number.

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## mrrehan

Nice article post by FATMAN17.


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## fatman17

Following hot on the heels of Sri Lanka and Nigeria, Azerbaijan looks to be the next in line for an order of JF-17s from Pakistan. Following his recent trip to the country, Pakistan President Mamnoon Hussain said that a deal regarding the sale of defense products to Azerbaijan was just one of several areas in which both were looking to increase cooperation. The potential for increased Azerbaijani-Pakistani trade comes as Chinese officials signed a number of documents with the Caucasus nation in December. Beijing, Pakistan’s partner in the development in the JF-17 program, is looking to develop a “Silk Way” economic belt stretching along developing countries that encompass the historical trade route.


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## alimobin memon

so whats status on srilanka deal ?


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## mrrehan

I heard on news Indians saying they dont like sri lanka to be a place where Pakistan anx China be there, Where Sri lankan govt hasn't issue any statement. Indians r playing some roll here.


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## fatman17

SL has unfortunately opted out of JF17 deal for now.

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## fatman17

Confirmed orders are 
Myanmar 
Nigeria 
Considering 
Azerbaijan

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## Abu Zolfiqar

fatman17 said:


> *Q- does the PAA operate the Mi-24?. *the only information i have is the defection by AAF Mi-24s in the mid-80s. both the a/c are parked at quetta's samugli air-base in non-flyable condition!
> *Any Comments please!*


interesting...! news to me!



fatman17 said:


> SL has unfortunately opted out of JF17 deal for now.



indian lobby still exists in SL or are they waiting for newer block? SLAF is in dire need of modernization


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## Maarkhoor

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> interesting...! news to me!
> 
> 
> 
> indian lobby still exists in SL or are they waiting for newer block? SLAF is in dire need of modernization


During Afghanistan war some Afghan pilots deflected to Pakistan with the helos and Pakistan use these helos for some time then because of spare parts nonavailability we grounded these helos.



















It is mentioned in some detail in the book ‘The Bear Trap’. 6 Mi-24s in total defected to Pakistan during the Afghan War. One was given to USA, one was gifted to China and one to France (or was it England?). The dates on which these 6 Mi-24s defected is given below together with the pilot(s) name and place where they landed.

Date -------- Pilot ---------- Place

13-07-1985 -------- Capt. Hussain -------- Landed at Miranshah
16-07-1985 -------- Capt. Daud -------- Landed at Miranshah
23-10-1986 -------- Major. Abdul Munir -------- Landed at Kohat
03-10-1987 -------- Capt. Nokolai Petrovich+2 -------- Landed in Mastuj
03-10-1987 -------- Maj. Yevginin Koszminin+2 -------- Landed at Miranshah
03-07-1989 -------- Capt. Sakiuulah -------- Landed at Qila Abduallh

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## fatman17

Export Sales Reported for Sino-Pakistan JF-17 Combat Jet

by Chris Pocock
January 13, 2016, 12:49 PM

Further exports of the Sino-Pakistan JF-17 “Thunder” combat aircraft have been reported, following an initial sale last year, which is now known to be 16 aircraft for Myanmar. According to Pakistan's President Mamnoon Hussain, Azerbaijan and Nigeria are both interested. But a proposed sale to Sri Lanka has been opposed by India, according to unconfirmed reports. 

A Nigerian newspaper reported that the country’s 2016 defense budget includes funds for the acquisition of three JF-17s, as well as 10 Super Mushshak basic trainers that are also produced by the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC). The JF-17 is a joint project between PAC and the Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation. The Nigerian air force currently flies Chengdu F-7 fighters and uses armed Alpha Jet trainers in operations against domestic insurgents, as well as Mi-17SH, Mi-24V and Mi-35P attack helicopters. But a senior NAF officer told The Fighter Conference organized by Defence IQ in London last November that the service wants to replace the Alpha Jets soon. 

Speculation that the Sri Lankan Air Force (SLAF) would become a customer was prompted by a visit to Pakistan last November by the SLAF commander, followed by a trip to Sri Lanka by the Pakistani prime minister early this month, when the deal was expected to be sealed. But according to India’s Sunday Express newspaper, Sri Lanka’s plan to buy eight to 12 JF-17s was strongly opposed by India. The SLAF currently operates Chengdu F-7s, as well as IAI Kfir and MiG-27 jet fighters.

All JF-17s are assembled in Pakistan, but China retains around 40 percent of the total workshare. After initially receiving 50 Block 1 versions, the Pakistan air force is taking delivery of 50 Block 2s. A Block 3 version with a new radar and internal targeting pod is planned, and a two-seat version is due to fly in China late this year.

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## Maarkhoor

fatman17 said:


> Export Sales Reported for Sino-Pakistan JF-17 Combat Jet
> 
> by Chris Pocock
> January 13, 2016, 12:49 PM
> 
> Further exports of the Sino-Pakistan JF-17 “Thunder” combat aircraft have been reported, following an initial sale last year, which is now known to be 16 aircraft for Myanmar. According to Pakistan's President Mamnoon Hussain, Azerbaijan and Nigeria are both interested. But a proposed sale to Sri Lanka has been opposed by India, according to unconfirmed reports.
> 
> A Nigerian newspaper reported that the country’s 2016 defense budget includes funds for the acquisition of three JF-17s, as well as 10 Super Mushshak basic trainers that are also produced by the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC). The JF-17 is a joint project between PAC and the Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation. The Nigerian air force currently flies Chengdu F-7 fighters and uses armed Alpha Jet trainers in operations against domestic insurgents, as well as Mi-17SH, Mi-24V and Mi-35P attack helicopters. But a senior NAF officer told The Fighter Conference organized by Defence IQ in London last November that the service wants to replace the Alpha Jets soon.
> 
> Speculation that the Sri Lankan Air Force (SLAF) would become a customer was prompted by a visit to Pakistan last November by the SLAF commander, followed by a trip to Sri Lanka by the Pakistani prime minister early this month, when the deal was expected to be sealed. But according to India’s Sunday Express newspaper, Sri Lanka’s plan to buy eight to 12 JF-17s was strongly opposed by India. The SLAF currently operates Chengdu F-7s, as well as IAI Kfir and MiG-27 jet fighters.
> 
> All JF-17s are assembled in Pakistan, but China retains around 40 percent of the total workshare. After initially receiving 50 Block 1 versions, the Pakistan air force is taking delivery of 50 Block 2s. A Block 3 version with a new radar and internal targeting pod is planned, and a two-seat version is due to fly in China late this year.


Export of JF-17 is very important for Pakistan since China refuses to produce jets for Chinese air force citing reasons that specification quite close to already inducted J-10 and because of this cost per unit is bit high and for future upgrades we need export customer not for profit but to cover R&D cost and upgrades.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

MaarKhoor said:


> During Afghanistan war some Afghan pilots deflected to Pakistan with the helos and Pakistan use these helos for some time then because of spare parts nonavailability we grounded these helos.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is mentioned in some detail in the book ‘The Bear Trap’. 6 Mi-24s in total defected to Pakistan during the Afghan War. One was given to USA, one was gifted to China and one to France (or was it England?). The dates on which these 6 Mi-24s defected is given below together with the pilot(s) name and place where they landed.
> 
> Date -------- Pilot ---------- Place
> 
> 13-07-1985 -------- Capt. Hussain -------- Landed at Miranshah
> 16-07-1985 -------- Capt. Daud -------- Landed at Miranshah
> 23-10-1986 -------- Major. Abdul Munir -------- Landed at Kohat
> 03-10-1987 -------- Capt. Nokolai Petrovich+2 -------- Landed in Mastuj
> 03-10-1987 -------- Maj. Yevginin Koszminin+2 -------- Landed at Miranshah
> 03-07-1989 -------- Capt. Sakiuulah -------- Landed at Qila Abduallh



We're also given to Americans and Chinese.. And French.


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## Maarkhoor

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> We're also given to Americans and Chinese.. And French.


I know you have any idea when we will get helos fro Russia ?


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## Cool_Soldier

It looks SL has accepted Indian pressure and time being refused to buy JF17.


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## fatman17

*PARIS: Pakistan Secures First Export Order for JF-17 Thunder*
Posted on 17 June, 2015
0



Pakistan Air Force JF-17 Thunder 13-146 from 16 Squadron ‘Black Panthers’ departing from Pakistan on June 7 for the Paris Air Show. Pakistan has now secured its first export order for the type, but is declining to identify the customer. PAF

PAKISTAN’S Chengdu/PAC JF-17 Thunder has secured its first export order. Speaking at the Paris Air Show on Monday, June 15, Air Commodore Khalid Mahmood, CEO of JF-17 Sales and Marketing, confirmed that a contract for the type had been signed with an unspecified Asian country.

He remained tight-lipped regarding the customer and also would give no idea of the number of aircraft involved. He did indicate, however, that deliveries will begin in 2017. It is believed that the order comprises ‘several’ batches, which will reportedly include some of the long-expected tandem two-seat version, which is still under development. It is slated to make its maiden flight around December 2016.

Three Pakistan Air Force (PAF) JF-17s are at Le Bourget this week for the Show, with two available for the daily flying displays, one being a spare (10-123 and 13-143 both from 26 Squadron ‘Black Spiders’), while the third (13-146 from 16 Squadron ‘Black Panthers’) is in the static park.

In addition to the aircraft, Pakistan has brought an 80-strong marketing team to promote the JF-17 and attempt to attract further sales. There has been interest from numerous countries in the aircraft, with Khalid stating that around a dozen countries are in serious talks about a possible purchase, while many others are showing interest.

Myanmar could be the un-named buyer, as the country has for some time been talking about a possible purchase and unsubstantiated media reports in March of this year suggested that a deal may have already been agreed at that time. Elsewhere, Argentina, Bangladesh, Egypt, Nigeria, Sri Lanka and Tajikistan have also previously been linked with possible sales, although with its recent Rafale deal, Egypt is now unlikely to proceed with a JF-17 buy. In early December last year, Pakistani officials said that Nigeria was close to an order for between 25 and 40 JF-17s, but nothing more has been heard of this proposal as yet.

Khalid said that the PAF has inducted 54 of the type to date, comprising 50 in Block I configuration and four Block II aircraft. The latter feature a fixed in-flight refuelling probe (although this has not been fitted on the initial aircraft), upgraded avionics and improved software. The Block I aircraft are being progressively upgraded to Block II.

A total of 50 Block IIs are being acquired, with the remaining 46 to be delivered at an average rate of three every couple of months. An additional 50 will then follow, all of these being in Block III configuration, bringing total purchases to 150. The last of the total of 150 are scheduled for delivery by the end of 2018. The final specifications for the Block III have yet to be finalised. AFD-Dave Allport


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## Cool_Soldier

I hope, Block 3 would be something totally different.Till now now around 66 JF17 examples have been inducted in PAF


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## django

MaarKhoor said:


> During Afghanistan war some Afghan pilots deflected to Pakistan with the helos and Pakistan use these helos for some time then because of spare parts nonavailability we grounded these helos.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is mentioned in some detail in the book ‘The Bear Trap’. 6 Mi-24s in total defected to Pakistan during the Afghan War. One was given to USA, one was gifted to China and one to France (or was it England?). The dates on which these 6 Mi-24s defected is given below together with the pilot(s) name and place where they landed.
> 
> Date -------- Pilot ---------- Place
> 
> 13-07-1985 -------- Capt. Hussain -------- Landed at Miranshah
> 16-07-1985 -------- Capt. Daud -------- Landed at Miranshah
> 23-10-1986 -------- Major. Abdul Munir -------- Landed at Kohat
> 03-10-1987 -------- Capt. Nokolai Petrovich+2 -------- Landed in Mastuj
> 03-10-1987 -------- Maj. Yevginin Koszminin+2 -------- Landed at Miranshah
> 03-07-1989 -------- Capt. Sakiuulah -------- Landed at Qila Abduallh


Those damn Afghans claimed them back during the Karzia era.

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## Imran Khan

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> interesting...! news to me!
> 
> 
> 
> indian lobby still exists in SL or are they waiting for newer block? SLAF is in dire need of modernization



lagta hai ap meri posts ghor se nhi pardhty ;


*1 MiG-21Bis
6 Su-22M4
2 Mig-17F
2 An-26
6 Mi-24D
we got from afghan& soviet pilots as gift *





fatman17 said:


> Not much news on Pakistan except for the following 2 small items:
> 
> 1. passing through shannon airport, ireland on november 5 was new production Gulfstream G450 N490GA (c/n 4090). it was on its delivery flight to the PAF with which it will be serialled J-756. the a/c had arrived directly from the Gulfstream Aerospace factory at savannah, georgia and had been scheduled to make a fuel stop at gardermoen, norway, but instead made a weather diversion to shannon. it wore full PAF colours but had the US civil registration taped over its PAF serial for the delivery flight.the PAF already has a single Gulfstream IV SP in service. J-755 (c/n 1258) that was delivered in Dec 2005 and is operated by N0. 3 SQDN at chaklala.
> 
> 2. Upgraded Hindsvery interesting article). the author Alexander Miladenov has listed 51 world-wise Mi-24 operators including Pakistan Army Aviation Corps.
> *Q- does the PAA operate the Mi-24?. *the only information i have is the defection by AAF Mi-24s in the mid-80s. both the a/c are parked at quetta's samugli air-base in non-flyable condition!
> *Any Comments please!*




total 6 of them sir jee
Date -------- Pilot ---------- Place

13-07-1985 -------- Capt. Hussain -------- Landed at Miranshah
16-07-1985 -------- Capt. Daud -------- Landed at Miranshah
23-10-1986 -------- Major. Abdul Munir -------- Landed at Kohat
03-10-1987 -------- Capt. Nokolai Petrovich+2 -------- Landed in Mastuj
03-10-1987 -------- Maj. Yevginin Koszminin+2 -------- Landed at Miranshah
03-07-1989 -------- Capt. Sakiuulah -------- Landed at Qila Abduallh


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## Mr304_AJ

Sadly our Coastal depth is not too much so we have to Keep in mind current Scenario of CPEC "Specifically Gwadar port" and rapid expansion of Indian Navy Its would be better to have Naval Version JF-17 Thunder block 3+ at least 3-4 Squadron.
what do you guyzz think...


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## fatman17

CBRN Assessment

F-16 sale to Pakistan held up by US Congress

Farhan Bokhari, Islamabad - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

13 January 2016

A planned US sale of eight new F-16 fighters to Pakistan agreed in October 2015 has been held up by the US Congress, according to local news reports as well as Pakistani officials who spoke to IHS Jane's .

"Some members of the [US] Congress are asking if F-16s are the right weapon to be given to Pakistan, which is basically fighting a domestic armed insurgency," said one Pakistani official who spoke to IHS Jane's on 14 January, confirming the delay. "They [US Congressional members] don't realise we are fighting an enemy [the Taliban], which poses a threat to global security interests," he added.


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## fatman17

5th ISR aircraft joins PAF /PAA

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## fatman17

JF-17 Thunder: The visit of Pakistan Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif to Sri Lanka did not result in a purchase of JF-17 fighters. A Sri Lankan Air Force spokesperson said that while the fighter is still being considered, among others, a deal was never going to be signed alongside Sharif's visit to Colombo. The JF-17 still seems to be the top choice for Sri Lanka which is looking to replace the Israeli Kfri jet currently in use.


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## Cool_Soldier

Sri Lanka will enter the deal soon.


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## fatman17

Pioneers of the PAF
AM Asghar Khan





Air Marshal Nur Khan

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## Cool_Soldier

Great people


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## ghazi52

Salute to them.........................


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## fatman17

Asia Pacific

Pakistan’s C-130 fleet is set to get a series of upgrades with Rockwell Collins selected to carry out the work. The Pentagon awarded the company a $30 million contract to carry out the work including the design, manufacture, integration, training, provision of technical support during installation, and delivery of 11 C-130E model kits and five C-130B integrated avionics suites and kits to Pakistan. Furthermore, they are to develop, validate, and deliver consolidated B/E flight manual and associated checklists, and maintenance supplements required to operate, maintain, and sustain the PAF C-130 fleet. All work will be carried out in Islamabad, and will be completed by the end of 2020.

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## fatman17

The US Department of Defence (DoD) has selected Rockwell Collins as the prime contractor for the C-130 Hercules fleet upgrade and supply of associated equipment to Pakistan.

Under the terms of the $30m contract, the company will design, manufacture, integrate, train and deliver 11 C-130E model kits and five C-130B integrated avionics suites and kits to Pakistani Air Force (PAF).

The contract covers the development, validation, and delivery of consolidated B/E flight manual and associated checklists, as well as maintenance supplements.

Work under the contract will be carried out at PAF's Nur Khan Base, Islamabad.

Delivery under the contract is expected to be completed by late 2020.

The upgrade is expected to enable the continued operation of the PAF'S C-130 fleet for counter-insurgency / counter-terrorism flights, regional humanitarian operations, troop transport, and intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance (ISR) missions within Pakistan and in the region.

"Though the authorities have not yet disclosed details about the potential investors, local media reported that four companies expressed interest in the deal."

In 2014, Pakistan placed a request with the US for avionics upgrades, engine management and mechanical upgrades, cargo delivery system installation, and replacement of outer wing sets on six of its C-130B/E aircraft.

The upgrades, estimated to cost $100m, were required for continued operation and effectiveness of the fleet, which is facing airworthiness and obsolescence issues.

The C-130 Hercules primarily performs intratheater portion of the airlift mission, and is capable of operating from rough, dirt strips. It paradrops troops and equipment into hostile areas.

Powered by four Allison AE2100D3 turboprop engines, the C-130 aircraft is designed to conduct airborne assault, search-and-rescue, scientific research support, weather reconnaissance and aerial refuelling, maritime patrol and aerial fire-fighting missions.

Image: US Air Force's C-130 aircraft. Photo: courtesy: USAF / Tech. Sgt. Brian E. Christiansen.

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## fatman17

Meet Chengdu's Ace Fighter Designer

Yang Wei might be an unfamiliar name to most observers, but his aircraft, and his underlying philosophy towards designing them, isn’t.

By Benjamin David Baker
January 20, 2016

China is often considered a “Black Box” in terms of its military research and development. The opacity surrounding the often-hyped Chinese military modernization program has fueled much speculation about its potential, capabilities and its planned intended use by the Chinese Communist Party. Much of what has been written about the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) has focused on either platforms (such as its aircraft carrier program or ballistic missiles) or policy makers and grand strategy (for example Xi Jinping’s recent ambitious military reforms).

However, there is often little written about the soldiers on China’s technological front line; the engineers and scientists who are actually designing and making (and pretty occasionally, stealing) the information and platforms that the PLA actually use. War is Boring’s Robert Beckhausen provides a fascinating window into one of China’s most influential and important contributors to its military modernization program.

Yang Wei isn’t a familiar name, even to most China-watchers. However, the 53-year-old chief Director of the Chengdu Aircraft Design Institute is probably one of the most influential individuals in Chinese military aircraft development today. Most of what is known about Yang comes from a 2011 interview with Science and Technology Daily, the official newspaper of the Chinese Ministry of Science and Technology. Apparently, Yang has been a leading designer on two of China’s most discussed aircraft: the new stealth fighter J-20 and the Sino-Pakistani JF-17 Thunder, which is being marketed as a low-cost export alternative to other, western and Russian fourth generation fighters.

What we know about Yang is that he was born in 1963, and enrolled at the Northwestern Polytechnical University in 1978 at the age of 15. He completed two degrees and became a control systems engineer at Chengdu. At 35, he became the youngest-ever director of such an important military research and development institute. In the interview, Yang is presented as the main designer behind China’s innovations in electronic “fly-by-wires” controls in the 1980s. Furthermore, he is described as the main architect behind the PLAAF’s introduction of all-digital aircraft simulation tests. As a result, Yang is hailed as the “man who broke the blockade of foreign technology.”

This is probably oversimplified, but Yang is certainly an influential individual in the development of China’s modern military aircraft. Beckhusen argues that Yang has basically invented the Chinese evolutionary approach to designing and building combat aircraft. Instead of designing and building a brand-new aircraft from scratch, it “borrows” from other countries’ design, integrate some imported and/or indigenous technology, and produces it at a fraction of the price.

The J-20 is a good example of this. This aircraft is designed with foreign technology, by way of stealing the blueprints for the Lockheed-Martin F-35 and the F-22 Raptor. There is much speculation surrounding the combat effectiveness of both these aircraft, but one thing is for sure; the J-20 is probably going to be cheaper than its American counterpart. While no numbers are available for what the J-20 is going to cost, another, related Chinese stealth fighter, the J-31 Gyrfalcon, is reported to land at about $75 million. How much the F-35 will end up costing is anyone’s guess, but according to Robert Farley, somewhere around $100-120 million is a possibilty.

As Beckhusen notes, the J-20 won’t be a complete game-changer. It will probably not be as effective as the F-35 or certainly the F-22 (not least due to China’s persistent problems with under-powered engines). However, in a little more than a decade, China went from having no stealth warplanes to entering the select club of countries in the fifth generation fighter business. That’s no small feat. We can expect, owing to Yang’s design philosophy, that whatever the J-20 becomes, it will not be radically different from what we’ve seen already. But then again, it doesn’t have to be.

In the case of the JF-17, Yang’s philosophy shines through in a different way. This aircraft is designed on the venerable MiG-21, but has been massively upgraded by the incorporation of advanced imported and indigenously designed tech, and is supposed to be comparable to older models of the F-16 Fighting Falcon. Again, not a revolutionary aircraft, and probably in the bottom half of the current fourth generation fighter ranking, but considering the price tag at $25 million, quantity becomes a quality in itself.

Yang has been able to keep almost entirely out of the spotlight, at least in English-language media. With several of China’s most talked-about military aircraft being overseen by him, maybe its time the world took notice.

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## Cool_Soldier

Thanks for the information.


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## fatman17

Air Platforms

Delay to F-16s down to 'Indian lobby', says Pakistani defence minister

Farhan Bokhari, Islamabad - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

21 January 2016

Pakistani defence minister Khawaja Asif told the lower house of parliament, the national assembly, in Islamabad on 19 January that a deal with the United States for the sale of eight new F-16 fighters had been delayed due to "an Indian lobby" as well as Pakistan's former ambassador to the US, Hussain Haqqani, lobbying against it.

IHS Jane's has previously reported that the agreement, which was finalised in October 2015, was being held up due to opposition from some members of the US Congress.

Asif's remarks suggested that the Pakistani government was concerned at the highest level about the delay, although he stated that "as of today" the US government was committed to supplying the F-16s, adding that delivery of the fighters could take place in another two years.

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## fatman17

We faced similar opposition during the sale of 18 F16C/ D models but the deal came through. Expect the same here also.

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## fatman17

Blast from the past

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## air marshal

King of Hearts said:


> Pakistan Air Force - Air Force Inventory Updates at the end of 2015.
> 
> *Fighter Squadrons*
> 
> 20 x Mirage ROSE-II (Tactical Attack):-
> 
> No. 25 Squadron Night Strike Eagles (Minhas - Kamra)



PAF Base Rafiqui (Shorkot) not Minhas.

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## Cornered Tiger

thanks 


air marshal said:


> PAF Base Rafiqui (Shorkot) not Minhas.


Thanks Sir. got it.


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## razgriz19

Where are we with the deal to provide Iraq with mushaks?
I read that the deal fell through for whatever reason...can someone confirm

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## fatman17

razgriz19 said:


> Where are we with the deal to provide Iraq with mushaks?
> I read that the deal fell through for whatever reason...can someone confirm



Correct

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## barbarosa

I would like to say once again that If India can cancel our international contracts regarding the export of JF17, such as SL Egypt Nigeria then what is the benefit of building a large no of JF 17. Then PAC should built it according to PAF requirements.


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## Tank131

barbarosa said:


> I would like to say once again that If India can cancel our international contracts regarding the export of JF17, such as SL Egypt Nigeria then what is the benefit of building a large no of JF 17. Then PAC should built it according to PAF requirements.



India did not cancel any deal for JF-17 yet. Yes they are pressuring SL not to buy, but as of yet according to SLAF there is no decision on what fighter to acquire.


Certainly they have not affected anything regarding Egypt or Nigeria. Nigeria has, it seems arranged funds for 3 Thunder already and as far as Egypt goes, already operating 220 F-16 and with induction of Rafale and Mig-35, I think superior options given GCC money had more to do with this, though there are rumors (however unlikely) that they are still interestedn in JF-17, especially for co-production. Remember also the Myanmar is said to have bought 17, Morocco is said to have been very interested (hence inviting the Thunder to The Marrakech Air Show). Azerbaijan is said to be interested and with the new government in Argentina, it is said that they will reopen the fighter competition (but that will depend on Chinese willingness to sell AShM to Argentina). But, the main aim is and should still be PAF.


BTW, there is no reason that the PAF shouldn't tailor the design to themselves as the block 2 iteration is what most of these nations would want/need/require/afford, and even potential future upgrades and special requests for various subsystems can be entertained on a case by case basis.

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## razgriz19

fatman17 said:


> Correct



If i may ask, any specific reason?

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## fatman17

razgriz19 said:


> If i may ask, any specific reason?



US and Russian pressure

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## Sulman Badshah



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## Sulman Badshah

nomi007 said:


> PAF is evaluating* TAI Hurkus*.
> The *TAI Hurkus* is a tandem two-seat, low-wing, single-engine, turboprop aircraft being developed by Turkish Aerospace Industries as a new basic trainer and ground attack aircraft.


This is KT-1 woongbi (not hurkus)


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## Bratva

Sulman Badshah said:


> View attachment 291639



Little background on the pic ?


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## Kompromat

Its Hurkus


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## Sulman Badshah

Horus said:


> Its Hurkus


Hurkus canopy design is different and hurkus is 5 blade trainer .. while KT1 is 4 blade and have a flat canopy design


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## fatman17

Is PAF planning to replace the Mushshak


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## Kompromat

There is a video of PAF Pilots flying Hurkus

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## fatman17

Air-Launched Weapons

China offers latest FT-series precision-guided bombs for export

Miroslav Gyürösi, Bratislava and David Xia, London (Additional Reporting) and Robin Hughes, London - IHS Jane's Missiles & Rockets

07 February 2016

An FT-3A precision-guided bomb on a Hongdu Q-5/A-5 test aircraft. (China Aerospace Science & Technology Corporation )

Key PointsThree new variants complement eight FT-series precision munitions now offered for exportChina is seeking to expand its PGB footprint internationally

With the release of the improved FT-3A, FT-6A, and FT-7 variants earlier this year, Aerospace Long-March International Trade Co Ltd (ALIT), an intermediary subsidiary of the China Aerospace Science & Technology Corporation (CASC), is now promoting the complete Fei Teng (FT) series of precision-guided bombs (PGBs) to the international market.

Developed by the CASC China Academy of Launch Vehicle Technology (CALT), the CALT/CASC FT-1 and FT-3 precision-guided bombs (PGBs) were first exhibited in November 2006 at the Zhuhai Airshow in China.

Since then the FT family has expanded to include additional FT-2, FT-5, FT-6, FT-9, FT-10, and FT-12 designs now ranging in size from about 25 kg to 1,000 kg. These are arguably in direct competition with the Lei Shi-6 (LS-6) series PGBs developed by the Luoyang Optoelectro Technology Development Center (LOEC), part of Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC).

CALT says all of its FT PGBs are equipped with a guidance system that includes global navigation satellite system (GNSS) receivers, which, while CALT officially refutes any dependence on the US-controlled GPS system according to Chinese press reports would allow the option for GPS, the Russian GLONASS, and potentially China's own BeiDou Navigation Satellite System (BDS) GNSS receivers.

China launched the fifth of a new generation of navigation satellites on 3 February, the 21st of the BeiDou System. The first 16 BeiDou satellites formed a network that covered only China and nearby regions. The first new-generation satellite, the 17th in total, was launched in March 2015 to help the network transition from regional to global coverage. By the end of 2018, a further 18 satellites will be put into orbit for the BeiDou system, according to Ran Chengqi, Director of the China Satellite Navigation Office and spokesperson of the BeiDou Navigation Satellite System.


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## Shabi1

fatman17 said:


> Is PAF planning to replace the Mushshak


PAF likes to evaluate everything to kee it self updated and either buy them or incorporate those features on its own productions. We have permanent pilots in Turkey so probably just checking it out.


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## fatman17

The Emir of Qatar will witness a display of the PAF JF-17 fighters as Pakistan’s Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif visits the country this week. A contingent from the Pakistan Air Force are in Doha preparing for the display, as Sharif, along with a high-level delegation, visits to commence a series of diplomatic talks. Areas where both Qatar and Pakistan may improve bilateral relations include energy cooperation, trade and investment, employment opportunities for the Pakistani workforce in Qatar, and in various defense related fields. While a number of Memorandums of Understanding (MoUs) are expected to be signed, an order for the JF-17 may be a bit premature as Qatar awaits the long delayeddeal of Rafale fighters from Dassault.


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## fatman17

PM WITNESSES AERIAL DISPLAY BY PAKISTANI COMBAT AIRCRAFT


By Umer Nangiana/Staff Reporter

An impressive airshow put up by Pakistan Air Force (PAF) at the old Doha International Airport yesterday was witnessed by HE the Prime Minister and Interior Minister Sheikh Abdullah bin Nasser bin Khalifa al-Thani and Pakistan Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif.
A JF-17 Thunder, a multi-role light combat aircraft indigenously produced in Pakistan in co-operation with China, and a Super Mushshak trainer jet presented aerial stunts at the show where pilots demonstrated the two aircraft’s advanced capabilities.
After completing its range of aerobatics, the JF-17 Thunder in its sign-off salute impressed the audience with a spectacular vertical climb, a straight pull-up followed by aileron rolls pumping flares in its trail. 
Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman, the Chief of Air Staff, PAF, briefed HE Sheikh Abdullah and Nawaz Sharif on the salient features and capabilities of the aircraft.
Nawaz Sharif arrived in Doha yesterday on an official two-day visit on the invitation of HH the Emir Sheikh Tamim bin Hamad al-Thani and HE the Prime Minister of Qatar. 
“Pakistan highly values its relations with Qatar. We are benefiting from each other’s experiences in various fields including defence. Pakistan cherishes the level of co-operation between the two countries and desires to further enhance defence collaboration by offering indigenous aviation products,” the Pakistan prime minister said.
The JF-17 Thunder is a light-weight, single-engine, multi-role aircraft which can be used for ground attack and air intercept. The JF-17 can deploy a variety of weapons including air-to-air and air-to-surface missiles. The aircraft is equipped with cutting edge avionics and weaponry.
“It was during our last government that development of the JF-17 aircraft was initiated. In less than a decade it has made a mark in fighter stream around the world. Today, there are four PAF Squadrons already operational,” the Pakistani premier said, adding that due to its multi role, affordability and capability; many air forces in the world are seriously looking for its induction.
“This joint venture of JF-17 Thunder, in collaboration with our Chinese friends, is no doubt a landmark achievement and a source of pride for the Pakistani nation.” 
He said Pakistan is also introducing to the ‘Qatari brothers,’ the Super Mushshak trainer aircraft being used back home for decades. Almost all PAF pilots who have proved their excellence and participated in operations against terrorist hideouts, had initiated their training on this aircraft.
Super Mushaak is being manufactured completely in Pakistan and many friendly countries are operating it. Pakistan also provided training to pilots, engineers and technicians of the countries who have acquired this aircraft.
“I am confident that close defence co-operation will further strengthen our strong brotherly relations,” Sharif added.
Besides a large number of Qatari armed forces personnel, the show was witnessed by HE Chief of General Staff Qatar, Major General Ghanem bin Shaheen al-Ghanem, and other high ranking military officers from Qatar and officials of Pakistan Embassy in Doha.

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## volatile

fatman17 said:


> Nawaz Sharif arrived in Doha yesterday on an official two-day visit on the invitation of HH the Emir Sheikh Tamim bin Hamad al-Thani and HE the Prime Minister of Qatar.
> “Pakistan highly values its relations with Qatar. We are benefiting from each other’s experiences in various fields including defence. Pakistan cherishes the level of co-operation between the two countries and desires to further enhance defence collaboration by offering indigenous aviation products,” the Pakistan prime minister said.
> The JF-17 Thunder is a light-weight, single-engine, multi-role aircraft which can be used for ground attack and air intercept. The JF-17 can deploy a variety of weapons including air-to-air and air-to-surface missiles. The aircraft is equipped with cutting edge avionics and weaponry.
> “It was during our last government that development of the JF-17 aircraft was initiated. In less than a decade it has made a mark in fighter stream around the world. Today, there are four PAF Squadrons already operational,” the Pakistani premier said, adding that due to its multi role, affordability and capability; many air forces in the world are seriously looking for its induction.
> “This joint venture of JF-17 Thunder, in collaboration with our Chinese friends, is no doubt a landmark achievement and a source of pride for the Pakistani nation.”
> He said Pakistan is also introducing to the ‘Qatari brothers,’ the Super Mushshak trainer aircraft being used back home for decades. Almost all PAF pilots who have proved their excellence and participated in operations against terrorist hideouts, had initiated their training on this aircraft.
> Super Mushaak is being manufactured completely in Pakistan and many friendly countries are operating it. Pakistan also provided training to pilots, engineers and technicians of the countries who have acquired this aircraft.
> “I am confident that close defence co-operation will further strengthen our strong brotherly relations,” Sharif added.
> Besides a large number of Qatari armed forces personnel, the show was witnessed by HE Chief of General Staff Qatar, Major General Ghanem bin Shaheen al-Ghanem, and other high ranking military officers from Qatar and officials of Pakistan Embassy in Doha.


I like that country PM is marketing him self just like in the Past French President did for several times ,specially i like it more is due to the fact he himself is a business man and he know how to sell .This line makes my day 

Almost all PAF pilots who have proved their excellence and participated in operations against terrorist hideouts, had initiated their training on this aircraft.

Since many PAF pilots and instructors are there so its time all can become part of big chain ,chip in there role and try to lobbied for this jet ,If Qatar buys there are chances it will land with UAE as well just my thought also it may end up being nothing so any ways wise effort


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## fatman17

The Ukrainian Ambassador Volodymyr Lakomov has said that his country may cooperate with Pakistan in its defense sector with a potential collaboration in joint-producing the Antonov An-225. This may lead to further cooperation in other areas, although in what capacity remains unknown. With orders of the cargo plane going to Iran and Egypt as well as a host of other potential clients, Ukraine may work with Pakistan as a regional partner for the plane’s renovation/modernization process to production. The increase in bilateral trade and development for Pakistan would add to the ongoing development being experienced via the China Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC).

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## fatman17

NEWS

DSCA Approves F-16 Block-52 Sales to Pakistan






Staff Reports

AAMIR QURESHI, AFP/Getty Images

Pakistani fighters F-16 fly on Nov. 4, 2013 during in the New Resolve military exercise in Khairpure Tamay Wali in Bahawalpur distirict.

WASHINGTON — The US State Department has approved the sales of eight F-16 Block-52 aircraft and other equipment to Pakistan worth $699 million, the Pentagon’s Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) announced Friday.

The Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) notified Congress of the possible sale and is awaiting approval to execute.

“We support the proposed sale of eight F-16s to Pakistan, which we view as the right platform to in support of Pakistan’s counterterrorism and counterinsurgency operations,” said a US government official said.

“These operations reduce the ability of militants to use Pakistani territory as a safe haven for terrorism and a base of support for the insurgency in Afghanistan, which is in the national interests of both Pakistan and the United States, and in the interest of the region more broadly.”


The official confirmed that there had been Congressional objections to the sale, but said that contrary to recent “erroneous reports", “concerns were raised in regard to financing the sale, not the transfer itself.”

According to the DSCA’s statement, the proposed sale will improve Pakistan's ability to conduct operations in all-weather, non-daylight environments, provide a self-defense/area suppression capability as it and enhance its ability to conduct counter-insurgency and counterterrorism operations.

According to the DSCA, Pakistan is not expected to have difficulty absorbing these additional aircraft into its air force. The sale is also meant to increase the number of aircraft available to the Pakistan Air Force to sustain operations, meet monthly training requirements and support transition training for pilots new to the Block-52.

The pending sale to Pakistan includes:
♦ eight F-16 Block-52 aircraft — two C and six D and models with the F100-PW-229 increased performance engine
♦ 14 Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems
♦ eight AN/APG-68(V)9 radars
♦ eight ALQ-211(V)9 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suites

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## fatman17

Air Platforms

Pakistan showcases Thunder and Super Mushshak aircraft to Qatar

Alan Warnes, London - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

12 February 2016

A Pakistan Air Force JF-17 seen during a recent visit to Dohar, where the Pakistan government has hopes of selling some of its domestically developed aircraft types. Source: Pakistan Air Force

The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) sent two of its indigenously-built JF-17 Thunder fighters, along with a pair of MFI-17 Super Mushshak military training aircraft on a promotional visit to Doha, Qatar, on 7 February.

Its arrival coincided with a two-day visit to the Emirate state by Pakistan's prime minister, Nawaz Sharif, and a high-powered delegation.

The PAF's week-long stay at Doha international airport culminated in a flying display of both types on 11 February in front of VIPs, which included Nawaz Sharif; Qatar prime minister Abdullah bin Nasser bin Khalifa Al Thani; Qatar Armed Forces Chief of General Staff, Major General (pilot) Ghanem bin Shaheen Al Ghanem; and the PAF Chief of the Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman.

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## fatman17

Defense Security Cooperation Agency

NEWS RELEASE

On the web: Home Page | The Official Home of the Defense Security Cooperation Agency 
Media/Public Contact: 

pm-cpa@state.gov

Transmittal No. 15-80

The Government of Pakistan – F-16 Block 52 Aircraft

WASHINGTON, Feb. 12, 2016 - The State Department has made a determination approving a possible Foreign 
Military Sale to the Government of Pakistan for F-16 Block 52 Aircraft, equipment, training, and logistics 
support. The estimated cost is $699.04 million. The Defense Security Cooperation Agency delivered the 
required certification notifying Congress of this possible sale on February 11, 2016.
The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of:
Major Defense Equipment (MDE):
Eight (8) F-16 Block 52 aircraft (two (2) C and six (6) D models), with the F100-PW-229 increased 
performance engine
Fourteen (14) Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS)
Non-MDE items included in this request are eight (8) AN/APG-68(V)9 radars, and eight (8) ALQ-
211(V)9 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suites (AIDEWS). Additionally, this 
possible sale includes spare and repair parts, support and test equipment, publications and technical 
documentation, personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor 
engineering, technical and logistics support services, and other related elements of logistical and 
program support. The estimated cost of MDE is $564.68 million. The total estimated cost is $699.04
million.
This proposed sale contributes to U.S. foreign policy objectives and national security goals by helping to 
improve the security of a strategic partner in South Asia.
The proposed sale improves Pakistan's capability to meet current and future security threats. These 
additional F-16 aircraft will facilitate operations in all-weather, non-daylight environments, provide a self-
defense/area suppression capability, and enhance Pakistan’s ability to conduct counter-insurgency and 
counterterrorism operations. 
This sale will increase the number of aircraft available to the Pakistan Air Force to sustain operations, 
meet monthly training requirements, and support transition training for pilots new to the Block-52. 
Pakistan will have no difficulty absorbing these additional aircraft into its air force.
The proposed sale of this equipment and support will not alter the basic military balance in the region.
Contractors have not been selected to support this proposed sale. There are no known offset agreements 
proposed in connection with this potential sale.

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## fatman17

F16s

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## Cool_Soldier

Yeh tu hona hee thaa....


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## ZEYA

SO after getting this 8 new f-16 ,total number of f-16 in pakistan air force will be ???? will it be 76 +8=84 ??????

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## fatman17

ZEYA said:


> SO after getting this 8 new f-16 ,total number of f-16 in pakistan air force will be ???? will it be 76 +8=84 ??????



plus a possible 12 used F16s from Jordan.

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## The Eagle

Good news indeed.... happy flying guys....


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## alimobin memon

fatman17 said:


> plus a possible 12 used F16s from Jordan.


Sir jordanian f16 deal was already completed or is this the new deal ?


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## araz

fatman17 said:


> NEWS
> 
> DSCA Approves F-16 Block-52 Sales to Pakistan
> 
> View attachment 293522
> 
> Staff Reports
> 
> AAMIR QURESHI, AFP/Getty Images
> 
> Pakistani fighters F-16 fly on Nov. 4, 2013 during in the New Resolve military exercise in Khairpure Tamay Wali in Bahawalpur distirict.
> 
> WASHINGTON — The US State Department has approved the sales of eight F-16 Block-52 aircraft and other equipment to Pakistan worth $699 million, the Pentagon’s Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) announced Friday.
> 
> The Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) notified Congress of the possible sale and is awaiting approval to execute.
> 
> “We support the proposed sale of eight F-16s to Pakistan, which we view as the right platform to in support of Pakistan’s counterterrorism and counterinsurgency operations,” said a US government official said.
> 
> “These operations reduce the ability of militants to use Pakistani territory as a safe haven for terrorism and a base of support for the insurgency in Afghanistan, which is in the national interests of both Pakistan and the United States, and in the interest of the region more broadly.”
> 
> 
> The official confirmed that there had been Congressional objections to the sale, but said that contrary to recent “erroneous reports", “concerns were raised in regard to financing the sale, not the transfer itself.”
> 
> According to the DSCA’s statement, the proposed sale will improve Pakistan's ability to conduct operations in all-weather, non-daylight environments, provide a self-defense/area suppression capability as it and enhance its ability to conduct counter-insurgency and counterterrorism operations.
> 
> According to the DSCA, Pakistan is not expected to have difficulty absorbing these additional aircraft into its air force. The sale is also meant to increase the number of aircraft available to the Pakistan Air Force to sustain operations, meet monthly training requirements and support transition training for pilots new to the Block-52.
> 
> The pending sale to Pakistan includes:
> ♦ eight F-16 Block-52 aircraft — two C and six D and models with the F100-PW-229 increased performance engine
> ♦ 14 Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems
> ♦ eight AN/APG-68(V)9 radars
> ♦ eight ALQ-211(V)9 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suites


The timing of this notification is immaculate. As we know the Congress is due to break soon if not already. It will reconvene 8th March and the super sunday (as per Hkhan of Pakdef) is the week after. As such business activity in Congress remains low. This sale will God willing go through without any hurdles. Also worthy of note is the fact that we wanted AIM9X but it is not part of the sale as is the AESA radar which may have made the deal more difficult. So some clever negotiations and maneuvering by the US adminiistration. We have still got a need for HOBS missiles however it seems PAF might source them from a third party/buy later. Also missing from the equation is AIM 120D. News is surfacing of PAFs interest in the rest of the Jordanian fleet which has long been managed by the Pakistanis in Jordan. This would be a better solution for us to replace 20 fighters while not spending much. We are assuming that the new F16S are coming via FMF so in fact US is paying for them. If true it means no strain on our sovereign funds which could be reserved for a future buy.
A
PS: I find it incredible that a sale of new equipment is always associated with some EDA articles. Am I imagining this or is this a fact. Any comments?

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## fatman17

U.S. OKs sale of 8 Lockheed F-16 fighter jets to Pakistan: Pentagon

Reuters 

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. government said on Friday it had approved the sale to Pakistan of up to eight F-16 fighter jets built by Lockheed Martin Corp, radar and other equipment in a deal valued at $699 million.

The Pentagon's Defense Security Cooperation Agency, which oversees foreign arms sales, said it had notified lawmakers about the possible deal.

The agency said the F-16s would allow Pakistan's Air Force to operate in all-weather environments and at night, while improving its self-defense capability and bolstering its ability to conduct counter-insurgency and counter-terrorism operations.

Lawmakers have 30 days to block the sale, although such action is rare since deals are well-vetted before any formal notification.

India said it was disappointed with the U.S. decision. "We disagree with their rationale that such arms transfers help to combat terrorism," Vikas Swarup, a spokesman for India's Foreign Ministry, said on Twitter.

Senate Foreign Relations Committee Chairman Bob Corker notified the Obama administration that he would not approve using U.S. funds to pay for the planes through the foreign military financing (FMF) program. That means Pakistan must fund the purchase itself, instead of relying on U.S. funds to cover about 46 percent of the cost.

Given the funds it has available, Pakistan may be able to buy only four of the F-16 Block 52 models, and the associated radar and electronic warfare equipment, said one U.S. source familiar with the situation.

Corker told Secretary of State John Kerry in a letter that he was concerned about Pakistan's ties to the Haqqani network, a militant group that U.S. officials have said is behind attacks in Afghanistan.

"I may reconsider my blanket hold on U.S. FMF assistance should the Pakistanis make progress on addressing my significant concerns about their support for the Haqqani network, but for now, if they wish to purchase this military equipment, they will do so without a subsidy from the American taxpayer," he wrote.

One U.S. official said the administration was convinced that F-16s were the right platform to support Pakistan’s counter-terrorism and counter-insurgency operations.

"These operations reduce the ability of militants to use Pakistani territory as a safe haven for terrorism and a base of support for the insurgency in Afghanistan, which is in the national interests of both Pakistan and the United States, and in the interest of the region more broadly," the official said.

Lockheed referred questions about the deal to the U.S. government.

(Reporting by Andrea Shalal; Additional reporting by Douglas Busvine in New Delhi; Editing by Meredith Mazzilli and Leslie Adler


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## aziqbal

Originally PAF asked for 36 x F16 C/D block 52+

Then this was cut to 18

Now they added another 8

I hope they don't add another 10 since that would be the original order of 36

This staggered approach costs more and takes longer why PAF decided to change it's mind I don't know

Finance related most probably but in the long run we should have just ordered the 36 new units and by now all would have been operational

The government needs to decide from the beginning what it wants and stick to the order, this playing around doesn't help



ZEYA said:


> SO after getting this 8 new f-16 ,total number of f-16 in pakistan air force will be ???? will it be 76 +8=84 ??????



Not all the ex-Jordanian F16 are operational some were used for spares and cannibalized and only 41 F16 went through MLU programme by TAI, my guess is your 76 is based on 31+14+13+18


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## Paksanity

aziqbal said:


> Originally PAF asked for 36 x F16 C/D block 52+
> 
> Then this was cut to 18
> 
> Now they added another 8
> 
> I hope they don't add another 10 since that would be the original order of 36
> 
> This staggered approach costs more and takes longer why PAF decided to change it's mind I don't know
> 
> Finance related most probably but in the long run we should have just ordered the 36 new units and by now all would have been operational
> 
> The government needs to decide from the beginning what it wants and stick to the order, this playing around doesn't help
> 
> 
> 
> Not all the ex-Jordanian F16 are operational some were used for spares and cannibalized and only 41 F16 went through MLU programme by TAI, my guess is your 76 is based on 31+14+13+18



Massive floods of 2011 caused reduction in numbers or so they say.


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## fatman17

Asia Pacific

Pakistan is to receive eight F-16s as the State Departmentapproved the sale on Friday. The $699 million subsidized sale will see Islamabad get two C models and six D models of the fighter alongside 14 Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS), eight AN/APG-68(V)9 radars, and eight ALQ-211(V)9 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suites (AIDEWS). But the sale has come under scrutiny from lawmakers. Republican Senator and chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee Bob Corker expressed his concern in a letter to Secretary of State John Kerry. Corker stated that the Pakistani government’s provision of safety to militant groups such as the Haqqani Network, who operate extensively in destabilizing Afghanistan, did not warrant US taxpayers subsidizing arms sales to the country. However, he would not be opposed to the sale if Pakistan paid for the fighters themselves.


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## fatman17

aziqbal said:


> Originally PAF asked for 36 x F16 C/D block 52+
> 
> Then this was cut to 18
> 
> Now they added another 8
> 
> I hope they don't add another 10 since that would be the original order of 36
> 
> This staggered approach costs more and takes longer why PAF decided to change it's mind I don't know
> 
> Finance related most probably but in the long run we should have just ordered the 36 new units and by now all would have been operational
> 
> The government needs to decide from the beginning what it wants and stick to the order, this playing around doesn't help
> 
> 
> 
> Not all the ex-Jordanian F16 are operational some were used for spares and cannibalized and only 41 F16 went through MLU programme by TAI, my guess is your 76 is based on 31+14+13+18



All ex Jordan F16s are operational. No need to cannabalize as spares are readily available.


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## fatman17

Paksanity said:


> Massive floods of 2011 caused reduction in numbers or so they say.



It was the Kashmir earthquake which forced the reduction.

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## fatman17

FO marium mukhtar shaheed

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## fatman17

PO Rashid Minhas Shaheed NH

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## fatman17

araz said:


> The timing of this notification is immaculate. As we know the Congress is due to break soon if not already. It will reconvene 8th March and the super sunday (as per Hkhan of Pakdef) is the week after. As such business activity in Congress remains low. This sale will God willing go through without any hurdles. Also worthy of note is the fact that we wanted AIM9X but it is not part of the sale as is the AESA radar which may have made the deal more difficult. So some clever negotiations and maneuvering by the US adminiistration. We have still got a need for HOBS missiles however it seems PAF might source them from a third party/buy later. Also missing from the equation is AIM 120D. News is surfacing of PAFs interest in the rest of the Jordanian fleet which has long been managed by the Pakistanis in Jordan. This would be a better solution for us to replace 20 fighters while not spending much. We are assuming that the new F16S are coming via FMF so in fact US is paying for them. If true it means no strain on our sovereign funds which could be reserved for a future buy.
> A
> PS: I find it incredible that a sale of new equipment is always associated with some EDA articles. Am I imagining this or is this a fact. Any comments?



Pakistan share in this FMF is 435 mill $ out of total of 699 mill $ so not fully subsidised. Plus the state and Def dept have issued a " in the national security interest of the US " certificate for this sale.

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## fatman17

Up to 12 more Jordanian F16s are under discussion and negotiation, however 2 other countries are also interested so let's see if our influence prevails over our Jordan friends.

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## fatman17

Chengdu’s J-20 Enters Production

by David Donald

February 14, 2016, 9:15 AM

China’s much-debated J-20 stealth fighter has now entered the low-rate initial production (LRIP) phase. Following on from two prototype/technology demonstrators and at least six pre-production development aircraft, the first of a new batch of production examples made an appearance outside Chengdu’s works in late December. It reportedly made its first flight on January 18, by which time a second LRIP aircraft had also been spotted at the airfield.

Whereas the earlier aircraft had all been numbered in the 20xx range, and were revealed in a full painted finish, aircraft 2101 was seen undergoing taxi trials in December in a yellow primer finish typical of aircraft fresh from Chengdu’s production lines. A second LRIP machine, 2102, was recorded in January, also in the primer finish.

Designed by the 611 Institute and built by the Chengdu Aerospace Corporation at the Huangtianba airfield, the J-20 is a large multi-role fighter with stealthy features similar to those found in the American F-22 and F-35. Although very little is known about its intended purpose, the aircraft appears to offer capability in a number of roles, including long-range interception and precision attack.

In terms of weapon carriage the J-20 has a similar arrangement to that of the Lockheed Martin F-22, comprising two lateral bays for small air-to-air missiles such as the agile, imaging-infrared PL-10, and a large under-fuselage bay for accommodating larger missiles and precision-guided surface attack weapons. The 607 Institute’s new PL-15 active-radar missile is thought to be the primary long-range air-to-air weapon, reportedly having been test-fired from a Shenyang J-16 platform last year. The PL-21, a ramjet-powered weapon in the same class as theMBDA Meteor, is another possibility for the J-20.

The sensor suite includes an electro-optical targeting system (EOTS) and a large-array AESAradar, which was developed by the 14th Institute at Nanjing Research Institute of Electronics Technology (NRIET, 14th Institute), and is possibly designated Type 1475/KLJ-5. Diamond-shaped windows around the fuselage suggest that a distributed aperture infrared vision system is installed.

In the cockpit, the J-20 sports three large color displays, plus other small screens, and a holographic wide-angle head-up display. An advanced datalink has been developed, and a retractable refueling probe is located on the starboard side of the forward fuselage. Much of the avionics suite has been tested by the CFTE (China flight test establishment) aboard a modified Tupolev Tu-204C, in much the same way as the systems of the F-22 were tested in a Boeing 757.

One area that has dogged the J-20 is the powerplant, where Chinese indigenous development has lagged behind that of the airframe and systems. The intended powerplant for the J-20 is believed to be the WS-15, an afterburning engine in the 44,000-pound-thrust (197-kN) class being developed by Xian, and which may ultimately feature thrust-vectoring. However, this engine is not expected to be ready until around 2020. In the meantime, the J-20s produced so far have been powered by the NPOSaturn AL-31FN (as used in the single-engine J-10) imported from Russia. The latest J-20s have the improved AL-31FN Series 3 engine offering 30,800 pounds (137 kN) of thrust, but even this engine may not provide the J-20 with “supercruise” capability.

J-20 History

Spurred on by developments in both indigenous technology and U.S. military capability, China initiated a project for a twin-engine stealthy fighter in the early/mid-1990s, subsequently reported byU.S. intelligence as the XXJ program. Chengdu/611 Institute’s Project 718 competed with a larger design from Shenyang/601 Institute, and was eventually selected in 2008.

Chengdu is believed to have built an initial batch of four prototype airframes, of which two took to the air. The first, 2001, made its maiden flight on January 11, 2011. It was followed on May 16, 2012 by aircraft 2002, which was subsequently renumbered as 2004. Two other airframes are understood to have been used for ground static and fatigue testing, and additional airframes may have later been produced for radar cross-section tests.

On March 1, 2014 the first of the development batch aircraft (2011) made its first flight. Whereas 2001 and 2002 appeared to be prototypes for evaluating aerodynamics and aircraft systems, as well as limited weapon carriage tests, aircraft 2011 was clearly outfitted for some mission systems.

Quite apart from the new RAM (radar-absorbent material) paint, there were numerous differences between it and its predecessors: the tailfins featured cropped tips; the inlets and DSI(diverterless supersonic intake) bulges had been redesigned; the leading-edge root extensions between wing and foreplanes were reshaped; the canopy had gained a stiffening bow frame; and the cumbersome main-wheel door design of the initial aircraft had been replaced by a much neater installation.

Perhaps the most obvious differences were the new nose design with a dielectric radome for an AESAradar featuring a sawtooth joint with the main fuselage, and the addition of an electro-optical targeting system in a fairing beneath the forward fuselage.

Three further development aircraft took to the air during 2014;Number 2012 on July 26; Number 2013 on November 29; and Number 2015 less than a month later on December 19. The latter two lacked a nose-mounted air-data probe, suggesting that theAESA radar was installed. Aircraft Number 2016 flew on September 8, 2015 with reshaped DSI bulges and lengthened fairings around the nozzles to improve rear-aspect radar cross-section. Other changes included enlarged fairings to either side of the engine nozzles. Aircraft 2017 followed on November 24, with a slightly more pronounced hump to the canopy.

At least four aircraft of the development batch were transferred to the CFTE (China flight test establishment) at Xian-Yanliang for tests. It is expected that the initial LRIP aircraft will be dispatched to the Chinese air force’s test and training center at Cangzhou once initial manufacturer/acceptance trials have been completed, and during 2017 the first front-line regiment could start to receive aircraft. IOC is slated for 2019, but may occur earlier given the priority afforded to the J-20 program. Chinese officials have stated that final requirements could be between 500 and 700 aircraft.


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## fatman17

Just a nice pic

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## fatman17

No. 7 squadron bandits

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## Paksanity

fatman17 said:


> It was the Kashmir earthquake which forced the reduction.



Thanks. I stand corrected.

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## fatman17

U.S. oks a $700mn FMS from Pakistan for 8 F-16 fighter aircraft

The United States State Department has approved a possible Foreign Military Sale to the Government of Pakistan for F-16 Block 52 Aircraft, equipment, training, and logistics support. The estimated cost is $699.04 million, the US Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) announced on Feb. 12, 2016.

US ok 700mn FMS from Pakistan for 8 fighter aircraft 640 001Some 72 F-16 A/B/C/D fighter jets are currently in service in the PAF

The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of eight (8) F-16 Block 52 aircraft (two (2) C and six (6) D models), with the F100-PW-229 increased performance engine, and fourteen (14) Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS).

Non-MDE items included in this request are eight (8) AN/APG-68(V)9 radars, and eight (8) ALQ-211(V)9 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suites (AIDEWS). Additionally, this possible sale includes spare and repair parts, support and test equipment, publications and technical documentation, personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor engineering, technical and logistics support services, and other related elements of logistical and program support. The estimated cost of MDE is $564.68 million. The total estimated cost is $699.04 million.

"The proposed sale improves Pakistan's capability to meet current and future security threats. These additional F-16 aircraft will facilitate operations in all-weather, non-daylight environments, provide a self-defense/area suppression capability, and enhance Pakistan’s ability to conduct counter-insurgency and counterterrorism operations," the DSCA said.

"This sale will increase the number of aircraft available to the Pakistan Air Force to sustain operations, meet monthly training requirements, and support transition training for pilots new to the Block-52," the agency added.

Contractors have not been selected to support this proposed sale.

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## fatman17

Blast from the past

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## fatman17

To the modern

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## fatman17

To the JV

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## fatman17

Air Platforms

US approves additional F-16 sale to Pakistan

Gareth Jennings, London - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

16 February 2016

Pakistan will receive additional Block 52 F-16s, similar to those operated by other countries such as Poland (pictured). Source: Polish Ministry of National Defence

The US government has approved the sale to Pakistan of additional Lockheed Martin F-16C/D Block 52 Fighting Falcon combat aircraft.

The approval, which was given by the state department and announced by the Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) on 12 February, is valued at USD699.04 million and covers aircraft, engines, systems, training, and support.

Specifically, the DSCA notification lists two single-seat F-16C and six twin-seat F-16D aircraft fitted with the Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-229 increased performance engine; 14 Joint Helmet-Mounted Cueing Systems; eight AN/APG-68(V)9 radars; and eight ALQ-211(V)9 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suites.

"The proposed sale improves Pakistan's capability to meet current and future security threats. These additional F-16 aircraft will facilitate operations in all-weather, non-daylight environments, provide a self-defence/area-suppression capability, and enhance Pakistan's ability to conduct counter-insurgency and counterterrorism operations," the DSCA notification said, adding, "This sale will increase the number of aircraft available to the Pakistan Air Force to sustain operations, meet monthly training requirements, and support transition training for pilots new to the Block 52."

The notification did not disclose delivery timelines.


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## fatman17

PLA's fighter jets go up for sale

China Daily, February 18, 2016

A large-scale model of the FC-20, the export version of the J-10 fighter jet, on display at the Singapore Airshow 2016 on Tuesday. The airshow runs through Feb 21.[Xinhua]

China appears to have given the green light for its domestically-developed J-10 fighter jet to be exported as the country looks to attract buyers at an overseas air show.

A large-scale model of the FC-20, the export version of the J-10, is on display at the China National Aero-Technology Import and Export Corp booth at the six-day Singapore Airshow 2016, which kicked off on Tuesday.

It is an unspoken rule in China's defense sector that weapons solely designed for the People's Liberation Army are never displayed at foreign exhibitions, so the model's appearance in Singapore carries a clear indication: that China now wants to promote the warplane to the international market.

The J-10 is a third-generation, multirole combat aircraft designed and produced by Aviation Industry Corp of China. It features a canard delta wing design, a fly-by-wire flight control system and is regarded by military experts as one of the best fighter jets in the world.

First entering service as the J-10A with the PLA Air Force in 2004, the plane was declassified in 2009 and by February 2014, the PLA Air Force and PLA Navy's aviation units had at least 260 of the jets in operation, British think tank the International Institute for Strategic Studies has estimated.

The country has also developed at least two upgraded versions of the aircraft－the J-10B, which has started to be delivered to the PLA Air Force, and the J-10C that is still in the testing stage, Chinese media reported.

Speculation has been rife in recent years among Chinese military observers and their foreign counterparts about when the J-10's export would be approved. Potential buyers named by foreign media include Pakistan, Iran and Argentina, but none have been reported to be in substantial negotiations with China so far.

Ma Zhiping, former general manager of China National Aero-Technology Import and Export Corp, said in September 2013 that several foreign countries from Asia, Africa and South America had "expressed interest" in the J-10, with his company expecting a huge market for the plane.

Wang Ya'nan, deputy editor-in-chief of Aerospace Knowledge magazine and an expert in aviation, said selling fighter aircraft was never an easy task as such arms sales were often influenced by a host of geopolitical factors.

"Land arms such as tanks or even short-range surface-to-surface missiles have limited impact on geopolitics, but fighter jets can perform strikes far away from their home country and thus are considered to have stronger prowess," he said.

"In addition, a contract for fighter jets usually means a large amount of profit because their life span is very long, so the value behind the aircraft and the after-sale services involved would be very high. Therefore, every major player in the aviation industry will spare no effort to scramble for the contract."

A weakness in China's efforts to sell its fighter jets is the fact that they are unproven in combat, according to Wang.

"Fortunately, the PLA Air Force has many air combat drills each year, which can enable foreign clients to know the capabilities of Chinese aircraft."

Follow China.org.cn on Twitter

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## mingle

@fatman any chance for PAF the FC20


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## fatman17

mingle said:


> @fatman any chance for PAF the FC20



PAF planners believe JF 17 can fill that role. J10 / FC 20 is on the back burner now with additional F16s on the way.

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## fatman17

Red in Tooth and Claw: China Arms L-15 AFT Trainer

By Wendell Minnick, Defense News

Wendell Minnick

SINGAPORE – What began as a simple lead-in fighter trainer (LIFT) has evolved into an aircraft armed to the teeth.
At the Singapore Airshow this week, the China National Aero-Technology Import and Export Corp. (CATIC) displayed the supersonic Hongdu-built L-15 Falcon attack/fighter/trainer (AFT) aircraft armed with new weapon systems not seen outfitted on the Falcon before.
The Nanchang-based Hongdu Aviation Industry Corporation is a subsidiary of the state-owned Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC).
Richard Fisher, an International Assessment and Strategy Center senior fellow, said the L-15 is now being marketed as a multirole combat aircraft in addition to its original LIFT mission.
The model at the air show was outfitted with the KG600 jamming pod, a Luoyang SD-10 self-guided medium range air-to-air missile (AAM) and PL-5 short-range AAM, and a precision guided bomb.

Outfitting options include 800L drop tank, gun pods, dummy bomb, PL-5EII and SD-10A AAMs, KG600 jamming pod, unguided 250kg/500kg bombs, HF-18D rocket launchers, and 250kg LS-6 and 500kg LS-6 laser guided bombs, according to a CATIC brochure.
“As the chined nose of the L-15 has not been modified on this model, it could also be that AVIC/Hongdu intend to equip the L-15 with a small active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, which would boost its combat potential,” Fisher said. At present, it comes with pulse-doppler radar.
Fisher said there is some irony that CATIC is marketing the L-15 at the Singapore Airshow. The L-15 is now the primary competition for the subsonic Russian Yakovlev Yak-130 multirole combat and LIFT aircraft, and Yakovlev had played a decisive role in helping Hongdu refine the L-15 design. The Russian’s are also exhibiting a model of the Yak-130 at this week’s show.
The Singapore Airshow is being held at the Changi Exhibition Center from Feb. 16-21.
Email: wminnick@defensenews.com


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## fatman17

DW Focus

India’s storm in a teacup over Pakistan’s F-16s

BY SULTAN M HALI



Indian coercive diplomacy to stop the sale of F-16s to Pakistan is akin to a storm in a teacup. India is disappointed that the United States has approved the sale of eight F-16 fighter jets to Pakistan and summoned the US Ambassador to New Delhi, Richard Verma, to ‘convey its displeasure’ regarding the Obama administration’s decision to notify the sale of the aircraft to Pakistan. Indian External Affairs Ministry disagrees with the US rationale that such arms transfers help combat terrorism.

Indian aversion to the US providing eight F-16s comes in the backdrop of India having browbeaten Sri Lanka to backtrack from acquiring JF-17 Thunder fighter aircrafts from Pakistan. According to The Indian Express, the procurement process was in the advanced stages, after the Sri Lankan Air Chief had visited Pakistan and later sent an evaluation team to study the aircraft and a green signal had been given to go ahead.

The Indian Express discloses that the Indian government delivered a non-paper — diplomatic parlance for a white sheet of paper without a letterhead or signature — to Colombo at the highest levels about three weeks ago after reports that Pakistan was seriously engaging the Sri Lankan Air Force (SLAF) on the Chinese fighter aircraft to replace the SLAF’s ageing fleet of Israeli Kfirs and MiG-27s.

New Delhi has opposed SLAF plans to buy the JF-17s on the ground that Sri Lanka does not need fighter aircrafts. Sri Lankan sources said India also put forth a technical argument that the Russian engines of the JF-17 were not the best, that even China does not use these aircrafts. Earlier, some Sri Lankan reports had said India had offered its own Tejas to the SLAF instead. India is also concerned that the deal, if it goes through, will enable Pakistan, and perhaps China, to set up a facility in Sri Lanka for maintenance and training, and increase and widen contacts between Pakistan and Chinese security forces and Sri Lanka.

It may be relevant to mention that in 2014 the then Sri Lankan government had cleared a proposal for China to set up a maintenance-cum-servicing facility for its aircrafts that are part of the Sri Lankan fleet in Trincomalee. The SLAF fleet also comprises the Chengdu F-7 fighter aircraft, and the Y-12 and MA60 transporters. India had raised concerns then about the plan and the Sri Lankan government had said it would be manned only by SLAF personnel. With the change in government, that plan was shelved.

Pakistan Air Force requires the additional all weather capable F-16s equipped with precision guided munitions to beef up its effort to combat terrorism but India is bent upon denying this capacity to Pakistan with the plea that the eight aircraft will upset the balance of power in the sub-continent. Interestingly, India itself has opted to acquire 126 French Dassault Rafale fighter aircrafts, is eying Russian MiG-35 fighters and concluded a number of recent defence deals. According to Stockholm International Peace Research Institute Report 2015, India was the highest recipient of arms. India claims that its fighter strength is at an all time low. As against the sanctioned strength of 45 squadrons it only had 34 squadrons. A recent parliamentary panel finding has put the squadron strength at 25 squadrons. This is alarming news for any defence personnel. Of the 25 squadrons, about 14 comprise MiG 21s and MiG 27s which are slated for decommissioning in 2020-25. By 2025, if India does not have sufficient Rafale aircrafts, its squadron strength would be at a dangerous 11. The delay in the Induction of Tejas which is already obsolete before it became operational and the stalling of the Indo-Russian FGFA means India has to make do only with 190 Sukhoi 30MKIs that it currently has. The MiG 29s and Mirage 2000s are slowly being upgraded. Hence, their operational availability will not be reliable. As an interim measure, IAF plans to order more Su-30MKI apart from the originally sanctioned 272. This may not be as effective as hoped. It makes the composition of the fighter fleet predominantly Su-30 which compromises the element of surprise in case of hostilities. Also, the technologies transfer with the Rafale aircraft are needed by India for its own indigenous fighter programmes such as LCA MkII and AMCA.

While unearthing its own ambitious plans, India grudges Pakistan acquiring the eight F-16s, which it knows will only enhance its war on terror capability and make no dent in the balance of forces ratio, which is already heavily tilted in India’s favour.

On the one hand, India is waving the olive branch by inviting Pakistan to a Comprehensive Bilateral Dialogue for peace; on the other, it is sabotaging every defence deal of Pakistan, however infinitesimal it may be. Our foreign office mandarins or the current political dispensation occupying the corridors of power in Islamabad, who got swayed by Modi’s Raiwind yatra on Mian Nawaz Sharif’s birthday bash, should think deep and hard regarding the real agenda of the Modi government. Irrespective of what political dispensation occupies the mantle of power in New Delhi, the mantra is the same; Pakistan bashing is its foremost priority.

Although US Congress is now going through a 30-day notification period after which it will be finalised. The F-16 aircrafts along with training, radar and other equipment would allow Pakistan’s Air Force to operate in all kinds of weather, as well as “enhance Pakistan’s ability to conduct counter-insurgency and counterterrorism operations,” the US Defence Security Cooperation Agency, which coordinates such foreign arms sales, said in a statement. Each country plans its force goals in accordance with its threat perception. Currently, PAF, which is engaged in targeting the miscreants with precision guided munitions is likely to retire about 200 of its aging F-7 and Mirage Fighter aircrafts and needs at least 24 F-16s to meet the threat at hand. The addition of the 8 F-16s from USA under Foreign Military Financing will offset the balance to some extent.

Sultan M Hali

The author is a retired Group Captain and author of the book Defence & Diplomacy. Currently he is a columnist, analyst and TV talk show host.

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## Cool_Soldier

Nice development.

PAF is not much interested in FC20 because it hopes that JF 17 block 3 would be something same or even better than this bird.
Hopefully, 3rd block will roll out in 2018.

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## Quwa

> Currently, PAF, which is engaged in targeting the miscreants with precision guided munitions is likely to retire about 200 of its aging F-7 and Mirage Fighter aircrafts and needs at least 24 F-16s to meet the threat at hand. The addition of the 8 F-16s from USA under Foreign Military Financing will offset the balance to some extent.


So ... Retired Group Captain Hali is saying the PAF is looking to build the F-16 fleet to around 100

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## Danish saleem

we will keep looking at f-16's, the purchase of J-10's i think abandoned.
we still not learned any lesson from our past.

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## Cool_Soldier

This is matter of technology and a solid answer to to your opponent.we need to see whether available option is capable of competing future requirements and also need to look into what adversary in neighbour is acquiring.

If available option is not meeting requirements, then it is wastage of resources.
Quality matters more THAN quantity.


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## Sulman Badshah



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## fatman17

US State Department approves F-16 sale to Pakistan



14 FEBRUARY, 2016 BY: JAMES DREW WASHINGTON DC

The US State Department has approved the potential sale of a further eight Lockheed Martin F-16 Block 52 aircraft to Pakistan, but whether the $700 million deal can survive a 30-day Congressional review process remains to be seen.

The requested foreign military sales package includes two F-16C fighters and six twin-seat D-models powered by Pratt & Whitney F100-229 engines. These would bolster the Pakistan air force’s counter-insurgency and counter-terrorism operations and enhance fighter training, according to a 12 February notification by the US Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA).

The chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee recently threatened to block the sale in a letter to US secretary of state John Kerry, citing US subsidies and Pakistan’s alleged support for terrorist elements in neighbouring Afghanistan. The same committee had also threatened to postpone Pakistan’s original Block 52 procurement, but ultimately that multibillion-dollar deal for 12 F-16Cs, six F-16Ds and hundreds of precision-guided bombs and missiles went ahead.

If realised, the new deal could extend production of the F-16 in Fort Worth, Texas beyond 2017. Assembly fell from 17 aircraft in 2014 to 11 last year: a 35% reduction. P&W would also cease F100 production without new orders.

Pakistan’s original F-16 Block 52s were delivered between 2009 and 2012. Iraq has since procured 36 examples for its air force, with its first examples arriving in country last year.

Islamabad will pay $70 million per aircraft under the proposed follow-on sale, including the latest F100-229 “increased performance engine” and 14 joint helmet-mounted cueing systems. Other equipment includes eight Northrop Grumman APG-68(V)9 mechanically-scanned, long-range radars and eight Exelis ALQ-211(V)9 advanced integrated defensive electronic warfare suites.

“The proposed sale improves Pakistan's capability to meet current and future security threats,” the DSCA notice says. “These additional F-16 aircraft will facilitate operations in all-weather, non-daylight environments, provide a self-defence/area suppression capability and enhance Pakistan’s ability to conduct counter-insurgency and counter-terrorism operations.”

Flightglobal’s Fleets Analyzer database records Pakistan as operating 46 single-seat F-16A/Cs and 31 twin-seat F-16B/D trainers.


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## fatman17

September 11/15: Pakistan and Russia are reportedly in talks over the supply of Su-35 fighters and Mi-35M helicopters, according to both Pakistani and Russian press reports Thursday. The sale of Mil Mi-35M helicopters was also reported in August, with it unclear whether current negotiations are a continuation of this previous contract or a new one entirely. The two countries signed a bilateral military cooperation agreement last November , with the fourth-generation Sukhoi Su-35 also eyeing potential export customers in China and Indonesia.


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## Asifkamal

Are you still hoping , su35???


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## Cool_Soldier

Yes, we still hope for that as Su 35 was offered to us.Now it is our job to evaluate it according to our requirement.
As Russian President is going to visit Pakistan this year hopefully in June but date is not yet decided.
May be these formal agreements will be finalized during his visit to Pakistan.


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## fatman17

C-130 NEWS

C-130 News ArchiveC-130 Deliveries

C-130 Hercules NewsRockwell Collins awarded a $30M upgrade kits contract for Pakistani C-130s

January 19, 2016 (by Asif Shamim) - Rockwell Collins has been awarded a $30,727,886 contract for work on the Pakistani Air Force fleet of C-130 aircraft.





Pakistan Air Force L-382B Hercules #4144 from 6 Sqn seen at RIAT on 15 July 2006 sporting a special paint and wrap scheme for the Earthquake relief carried out in 2005. [Photo by Asif Shamim]


"" style="border: 0px; vertical-align: bottom;">The contract will cover the design, manufacture, and technical support during installation and delivery of 11 C-130E model kits and five C-130B integrated avionics suites and kits. 

Additionally, Rockwell Collins shall develop, validate, and deliver consolidated B/E flight manual and associated checklists, and maintenance supplements required to operate, maintain, and sustain the PAF C-130 fleet. 

This contract comes through a foreign military sale to Pakistan approved by the U.S. Department of Defense, with the work to be carried out at Nur Khan Air Base, Islamabad and is expected to be complete by December 31, 2020.

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## The Eagle



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## fatman17

Kerry defends sale of F-16s to Pakistan


WASHINGTON: The Obama administration reiterated its support to sell F-16 jets to Pakistan despite strong opposition and questioning from the key US lawmakers.

Secretary of State John Kerry appeared before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee on Tuesday to discuss his budget plans and defended fighter jets sale to Pakistan.

Chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee questioned John Kerry on US plan to sell F-16 jets to Pakistan. He emphasised that Pakistan Army had been engaged in war against terror and the country proved to be the US ally.

Chairman of the committee, Republican Senator Bob Corker, questioned the deal saying, "They continue to support the Taliban, the Haqqani network and give safe haven to al-Qaeda."

Secretary Kerry was quick to respond that the issue was complicated. "I understand your reservations about it but their military has been deeply engaged in the fight against terrorism," he said. Kerry further added that Pakistan had been an ally.

The administration approved the jets sale deal earlier this month and sought Congressional nod. Corker had written a letter to President Obama refusing to back it, saying that he had his doubts about it, but the administration appeared determined to finalise it.


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## fatman17

Quote of the Day

I have flown in just about everything, with all kinds of pilots in all parts of the world -- British, French, Pakistani, Iranian, Japanese, Chinese -- and there wasn't a dime's worth of difference between any of them except for one unchanging, certain fact: the best, most skillful pilot has the most experience.

-- Chuck Yeager

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## fatman17

FT7P


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## fatman17

Coming soon to a airbase near you

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## Quwa

fatman17 said:


> Coming soon to a airbase near you


Would be a worthwhile pick if it is lighter than the C-802


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## Paksanity

Quwa said:


> Would be a worthwhile pick if it is lighter than the C-802



Apparently not. With a range of 180 km and powered by a turbojet, this sub-sonic missile (cruising 0.75-0.85 Mach), I expect it to be slightly heavier. Given the turbojet and subsonic, I suspect a very low flight trajectory especially in the final phase. A variant each is available for ship and ground launch as well. Revelation in Singapore show also confirms it is available for export. Let's see if it hits the mark with buyers.

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## Tank131

With C-802A operated by JF-17 and if also by PN on F-22P and potentially future frigates, AND CM-400AKG on JF-17, I dont then see the need for this missile with Pakistan. While it is great to give options for export of the JF-17 (3 AShM possibilities with C-802/3 and CM-400 if available to non-Pakistan forces for export, and TL-7) but for Pakistan it doesnt make sense. 

PAF already operates 3 different missiles (C802/CM400/Exocet) for this role and there was talk (albeit unlikely) to make an Antiship variant of Babur. There have also been murmurs of seeking clearance for Harpoon on F-16 (which I see as unlikley given PN/PAFs other options for anti-shipping, so cant make the anti-piracy argument here, and US does really want to have these used against India if it can prevent it).

One positive for export customers is that TL-7 is manufactured by CATIC who is the manufacturer of of JF-17 and J-10.


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## syed_yusuf

what are the specs of TL-7


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## Windjammer

*Air Vice Marshal Anwar Khan, an F-16 veteran, seen here shaking hands with a Turkish pilot during Indus Viper, has been promoted to Air Marshal. Presently, he is serving as deputy chief of the air staff (operations) at AHQ.... he also led the PAF contingent to China for the Shaheen-4 exercise.*

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## ghazi52

..................
*The Dragon Fly “Mitty Masud”*
One of the PAF’s most courageous leaders Air Commodore Mohammad Zafar Masud HJ, SBt,1923 – October 7, 2003; widely knew as Mitty Masud, was a high-ranking air force strategist and air commander of the Eastern Air Command during the East Pakistan war, prior to 1971.

Masud was born in Gujranwala, British Punjab State in 1923. Having joined the Royal Air Force in 1943, Masud was sent to Royal Air Force College Cranwell, Great Britain where he did his BSc in Strategic studies and also received a diploma in fighter pilot training. He did a staff college course in United Kingdom from which Masud returned with the best foreign student award. Upon his return to British Indian Empire, Mitty Masud opted the Pakistani citizenship as the Jinnah led the creation of Pakistan. Mitty was by 1947 already an air force pilot and became the youngest pioneer of the newly born Pakistan Air Force.

In 1947, Flight-Lieutenant (Captain) Mitty was deployed in Dhamial Army Air Base where he was put in charge air campaigns during the 1947 Kashmir War. As the war intensified, Mitty was sent to Skardu National Airport where took active participation in air missions under the command of Air-Commodore (Brigadier-General) Ahmad Mukhtar Dogar. In 1948, After the war, Mitty joined the Pakistan Air Force Academy as a research associate and gained MSc in Counter-insurgency in 1952. In 1952, he was promoted to Squadron Leader (Major) rank, and played an instrumental figurative role in the development and establishment in PAF's prestigious combat flying institution Combat Commanders School (CCS), PAF's Top Gun. In 1958, Commander-in-Chief Air-Marshal Asghar Khan chose (then) Wing-Commander (Lieutenant-Colonel) Mitty Masud to organise, train, and lead an aerobatics team of 16 F-86 Sabre jets that set a world record, validating the PAF's place among the well- regarded air arms of the world. Masud organised and sat up the first aerobatics unit as he served its first Commanding officer. In 1972, the Pakistan Air Force officially gave commissioned to Pakistan Air Force Sherdils in an honour of Mitty Masud, who first presented the squadrons its flying colours.
In 1964, Mitty was promoted to Group-Captain (Colonel) in the Air Force, and was made Commanding officer of the Sargodha Air Force Base. Mitty served under the Command of Air-Vice Marshal (Major-General) Eric Gordan Hall during the 1965 India-Pakistan war. As commanding officer of the Sargodha Air Force Base, Mitty's leadership and devotion to duty led to a successful aerial missions against the Indian Air Force (IAF). On the day and night of 7 September 1965, the IAF made five successive attacks on Pakistan Air Force facilities, and PAF's installations with Canberra bombers, Hunter and Mystere fighter bombers. Under the command of Mitty Masud, the PAF was retaliated, though the IAF heavily damaged the Air Force Base, PAF responded back with series of counter missions. After the war, Group Captain Mohammad Zafar Masud was honoured and awarded Hilal-i-Jurat in a colourful public ceremony by President Ayub Khan, for his active participation during the conflict.

Air Commodore Masud was very happily married to his devoted wife, Elizabeth, for 45 years and their son Salaar works as a software analyst in Europe. Elizabeth Masud, a German lady, speaks Urdu fluently and has, despite her own frail health, lovingly remained by her husband's side, including his long and difficult battle with Parkinson's disease. Masud died in Karachi on 7 October 2003, due to a Cardiac arrest. Mitty received a Guard of honour from the Pakistan Air Force, and was honorarily buried in Karachi Military Graveyard, next to his wife.

Air Commodore M. Zafar Masud was grand-nephew of Allama Mashriqi.

Sixth from left Air Commodore M. Zafar Masud.



.....

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## manaal

what is the maaximum height requirement for women to join GDP?


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## ghazi52

............................
PAF Falcons : No.14 Sqdn - either at Masroor or Sargodha Air Base (from Left to Right): Pilot Officer Badrul Hassan Khan, Flying Officer Rafique, Squadron Leader Gul Ahmad, Flying Officer Hamid Anwar, Flight Lt Daud Pota.





....

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## fatman17

Almost there. ..


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## fatman17

*China and Pakistan Air Forces Launch Joint Training Exercise *
The joint training exercise was launched this Saturday and is slated to run until April 30.






By Franz-Stefan Gady for The Diplomat
April 12, 2016


The People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) and the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) kicked off a joint training exercise this weekend, _Xinhua _news agency reports. The military drill, code-named “Shaheen (Eagle)-5” began on April 9 in Pakistan and is scheduled to run for three weeks until April 30.

“China’s Air Force hopes to widen the scope of cooperation and dialogue with all countries and regions,” the Chinese Ministry of Defense statement said in a statement quoted by _Reuters_. Neither China nor Pakistan offered additional details on where the exercise is being held or how many aircraft and troops –including combat pilots, air defense controllers, and technical ground crew–will be involved in the next three weeks.

Last year’s installment of the military drill, dubbed Shaheen-4, featured fourth-generation fighter jets and bombers as well as airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) aircraft. The PAF alone participated with three different types of frontline fighter aircraft from different squadrons (likely the JF-17 Thunder, Dassault Mirage III/5, and F7 PG fighter aircraft).

The PLAAF and PAF have held regular drills since March 2011 with the first Shaheen exercise held in Pakistan. The second training exercise took place in the Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region in western China in September 2013, the third was held in Punjab, Pakistan, in May 2014.

Speaking to _Reuters_, the PAF second-in-command, Air-Vice Marshal Muhammad Ashfaque Arain, said that the PAF heavily relies on its fleet of around 70 U.S.-made F-16 fighter jets in its anti-terrorist operations in Pakistan. Whether any F-16 aircraft will participate in the training exercise is unknown. In February, the United States finally approved a possible of eight additional F-16 Block-52 fighters to Pakistan in a deal valued at $699 million.

This Monday, the PAF also inducted 16 upgraded JF-17 Thunder Block II combat aircraft during a handover ceremony in Kamra, also known as Aviation City, the center of aircraft manufacturing in Pakistan. The JF-17 Thunder combat aircraft has been jointly developed by the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex and Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation (PAC/CAIC) and is meant to replace the PAF’s aging fleet of Dassault Mirage III/5 fighter jets by 2o20.

The chief of air staff, Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman, said that Pakistan achieved its goal of producing 16 JF-17 Thunder aircraft in 2015 and intends to up the production to 24 jets in 2016. Pakistan is looking to replace 190 aircraft—primarily Chengdu F-7 and Dassault Mirage III/5 fighter jets—by 2020 presumably with a mixture of F-16 and JF-17 aircraft. Pakistan, however, is also allegedly in talks with Russia over the purchase of Su-35 multi-role fighters.

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## nomi007



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## ghazi52

.Air Marshal Asghar Khan with his team of senior officers visiting a logistic unit in Turkey 1964… and saluting the turkish flag while the turkish national Anthem is playing

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## ghazi52

.Air Commodore F.S. Hussain S.Bt. T.Pk P.A.F. 1954
.

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## HRK

ghazi52 said:


> .Air Marshal Asghar Khan with his team of senior officers visiting a logistic unit in Turkey 1964… and saluting the turkish flag while the turkish national Anthem is playing



would request you to post this in Turkish Defence section ....


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## PDF

Why are we underestimating IAF SU30? It is a credible threat. We have become a very defensive force.

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## Tank131

Who is underestimating it? The only IAF aircraft people talk about here is the MKI and rafale. While M2k and Mig-29 are good they are roughly in league with F-16 and JF-17 but its the MKI AND Rafale combo that worries PAF.

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## IrbiS

Tank131 said:


> Who is underestimating it? The only IAF aircraft people talk about here is the MKI and rafale. While M2k and Mig-29 are good they are roughly in league with F-16 and JF-17 but its the MKI AND Rafale combo that worries PAF.




Both aren't the cutting edge of IAF and if PAF is ready for the cutting edge (Flanker) then these two can be dealt with by default and mind you, without underestimating them! IAF will not be using M2K as 1st line aerial fighter anyway in the conflict.

About Fulcrum, during the Kargil Conflict our Fighting Falcons got almost in the firing envelope of their Sidewinders with Mig-29s HEAD ON before pulling back and without being detected (well......in time). And that was poor PAF hammered by sanctions and limited resources with 80s fighters. Today's PAF is ten-fold more resourceful in terms of equipment and training.

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## Tank131

The Mig29 and m2k of today in IAF a different beasts than they were. Still inferior in my estimate to F-16 block 52 but as good if not slightly better than JF-17.


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## IrbiS

Tank131 said:


> The Mig29 and m2k of today in IAF a different beasts than they were. Still inferior in my estimate to F-16 block 52 but as good if not slightly better than JF-17.



They upgraded and so did we, so no worries.

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## niaz

Mad_Scientist said:


> Why are we underestimating IAF SU30? It is a credible threat. We have become a very defensive force.



I am friendly with a retired RAF Group Captain at my Skeet Shooting club. He was an ex RAF Jaguar & Harrier pilot.

Apparently main problem with Soviet fighters is shorter life span of airframe & engines, which makes maintenance quite onerous. Hence greater lifetime cycle cost. According to the Groupie; Flanker ( SU-27) is one of the best fighter plane ever designed and Eurofighter Typhoon project had the primary object to come up with a plane that would beat the Flanker. SU-30 Mk1 & SU-35 are improved versions of SU-27.

Unless there is an actual dogfight combat you would never know. It is possible that F-16 Block 52 in the fighter mode ( missiles only & no bombs) could outclass a fully loaded Su-30 Mk1, but in my humble opinion, it is the Rafael, Typhoon & F-16 Block 60 that are probably at par with Su-35 and marginally better than Su-30 MK1 with thrust vectoring engines. We under estimate MK1 at our peril.

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## zebra7

IrbiS said:


> They upgraded and so did we, so no worries.



Do the upgraded one have IRST, Internal Jammers, Hobs Missiles like R-73.

Does the fight is fought on one on one basis.

Have you checked the Mirrage 2000 UPG specs, Mig 29 UPG Specs, Jaguar Darin - 3 Specs.

Do you know MIG-21 Bison is also BVR Capable, was very sucessful against the USAF during Dact exercise, when backed by MKI.

Do you know, after the war broke up, the first target would be the airbases of the PAF AWAACs and airdefence systems like Radar installations, with the long range Supersonic Cruise missiles like Brahmos.


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## v9s

zebra7 said:


> Do the upgraded one have IRST, Internal Jammers, Hobs Missiles like R-73.


Internal Jammer with DFRM - Check
HOBS - No...AMRAAM's all the way!
IRST - Overrated (especially if russian)



zebra7 said:


> Do you know MIG-21 Bison is also BVR Capable, was very sucessful against the USAF during Dact exercise, when backed by MKI.



Little do you know that so is PAF's F-7PG



zebra7 said:


> Do you know, after the war broke up, the first target would be the airbases of the PAF AWAACs and airdefence systems like Radar installations, with the long range Supersonic Cruise missiles like Brahmos.



Duh. And are you really that pompous to think the PAF hasn't got answers for them?

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## IHK_PK

scary..... now one can understand why suddenly there is a lot of activity in PAF procurement of assets, exercises and Arial drills going on, in and out side country.

replying to this:-
About Fulcrum, during the Kargil Conflict our Fighting Falcons got almost in the firing envelope of their Sidewinders with Mig-29s HEAD ON before pulling back and without being detected (well......in time). And that was poor PAF hammered by sanctions and limited resources with 80s fighters. Today's PAF is ten-fold more resourceful in terms of equipment and training.



Source: https://defence.pk/threads/pakistan-air-force-news-discussions.8600/page-165#ixzz46OLih59X


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## IrbiS

zebra7 said:


> Do the upgraded one have IRST, Internal Jammers, Hobs Missiles like R-73.



MiG had (rather crappy)IRST and AA-11 Archer even prior to upgrade. So what's the point of flaunting 'em now!




zebra7 said:


> Have you checked the Mirrage 2000 UPG specs, Mig 29 UPG Specs, Jaguar Darin - 3 Specs.



Just cuz India paid more than enough for Mirage-2000 upgrade, doesn't make 'em 5th gen fighters. They are still 4th gen fighter and can be countered.




zebra7 said:


> Do you know MIG-21 Bison is also BVR Capable, was very sucessful against the USAF during Dact exercise, when backed by MKI.



Yes I know and so does the PAF.



zebra7 said:


> Do you know, after the war broke up, *the first target would be* *the airbases of the PAF AWAACs*




Isn't this exactly what India has tried to pull off? and that too not using planes but JAHAAZs if you know what I mean 



IHK_PK said:


> scary..... now one can understand why suddenly there is a lot of activity in PAF procurement of assets, exercises and Arial drills going on, in and out side country.



In short words, they could and should do better.

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## zebra7

v9s said:


> Duh. And are you really that pompous to think the PAF hasn't got answers for them?



I would like to hear the answer to that ? Give it a try.



v9s said:


> Little do you know that so is PAF's F-7PG



Does it is BVR Capable, have helmet high bore sight cued missile abroad, what is the range of the Radar --Griffo



IrbiS said:


> MiG had (rather crappy)IRST and AA-11 Archer even prior to upgrade. So what's the point of flaunting 'em now!



LOLZ, Russians have a long history and experience with the IRST, and it is an standard part of the Russian/Soviet birds. For crappy IRST, and AA-11 Archer -- Should I laugh. 
R73, with the sensetive, cryogenic cooled seaker, can see the target 40 km away, and could be targeted by just looking toward the target, with cueing with the Helmet mouted display, and have bore sight, and is considered as very dangerous and lethal weapon by US and NATO. 









> *Currently the R-73 is the best Russian short range air-to-air missile. Apart from an exceptional maneuverability, this missile is also directly connected to the pilot's helmet, which allows engagement of targets lateral to the aircraft, which cannot be engaged by missiles with a traditional system of targeting and guidance. The R-73A, an earlier variant of this missile, has a 30 km range, while the most recent R-73M can hit targets at a distance of 40 km. *
> 
> The R-73 short-range, close-combat standardized missile was developed in the Vympel Machine Building Design Bureau, and became operational in 1984. The R-73 is included in the weapon complex of MiG-23MLD, MiG-29 and Su-27 fighters and their modifications and also of Mi-24, Mi-28 and Ka-50 helicopters. It also can be employed in flying craft which do not have sophisticated aiming systems.
> 
> The missile is used for engaging modern and future fighters, attack aircraft, bombers, helicopters, drones and cruise missiles, including those executing a maneuver with a g-force up to 12. It permits the platform to intercept a target from any direction, under any weather conditions, day or night, in the presence of natural interference and deliberate jamming. It realizes the "fire and forget" principle.
> 
> The missile design features a canard aerodynamic configuration: control surfaces are positioned ahead of the wing at a distance from the center of mass. The airframe consists of modular compartments accommodating the homing head, aerodynamic control surface drive system, autopilot, proximity fuze, warhead, engine, gas-dynamic control system and aileron drive system. The lifting surfaces have a small aspect ratio. Strakes are mounted ahead of the aerodynamic control surfaces. The combined aero-gas-dynamic control gives the R-73 highly maneuverable flight characteristics. During flight, yaw and pitch are controlled by four aerodynamic control surfaces connected in pairs and by just as many gas-dynamic spoilers (fins) installed at the nozzle end of the engine. Control with engine not operating is provided by aerodynamic control surfaces. Roll stabilization of the missile is maintained with the help of four mechanically interconnected ailerons mounted on the wings. Drives of all missile controls are gas, powered from a solid-propellant gas generator.
> 
> The passive infrared homing head supports target lock-on before launch. Guidance to the predicted position is by the proportional navigation method. The missile's combat equipment consists of an active proximity (radar or laser) fuze and impact fuze and a continuous-rod warhead. The engine operates on high-impulse solid propellant and has a high-tensile steel case. Russia's Vympel weapons designers have developed a one-of-a-kind air-to-air missile, which NATO has dubbed as AA-11, for use on foreign fighter planes. Techically and militarily the new missile, meant for quick-action dogfights, leave its foreign analogues far behind. Vympel experts have also made it possible for the new missile to be easily installed on all available types of aircraft. The AA-11 can also be used on older planes which will now be able to effectively handle the US' highly maneuverable F-15 and F-16 jets. The AA-11 missile is based on all-new components, use new high-energy solid fuel and an advanced guidance and control system which has made it possible to minimize their size. Their exceptionally high accuracy is ensured by the missile's main secret, the so-called transverse control engine, which rules out misses during the final approach trajectory. The transverse control engine is still without parallel in the world.
> Russia has offered the export-version R-7EE air-to-air missile system for sale so that it can be fitted to foreign-made fighter aircraft. Developed by the Vympel state-sector engineering and design bureau, the R-7EE is designed for close-quarters aerial combat. Vympel specialists have developed a way of ensuring that the missile system can be fitted to virtually any type of aircraft. It can be fitted to older aircraft, which feature heavily in third-world countries' air forces.





IrbiS said:


> Just cuz India paid more than enough for Mirage-2000 upgrade, doesn't make 'em 5th gen fighters. They are still 4th gen fighter and can be countered.



LOLZ, India paid more for Mirrage 2000 Upgrade compared to whom F-16 A/B of PAF MLU ??

1. Does the MLUes part includes the extensive upgrade e.g the Modular Mission computer Artitecture.

2. Does the MLU also includes the BVR 400 MICA IR/RF.

3. Does the MLU/upgrade will allow 40year/6000 hours of the life. (Better ask your senior, whether the MLU Package of the F-16 A/B contains any Engine Pratt and Witney F-100 PW-200 turbofan OR lust the MRO kit)



IrbiS said:


> Yes I know and so does the PAF.



Then PAF might know that the RAM coating developed exclusively for the MIG-21 Bison, reduces the RCS to 1/10 of the RCS of the Mig-21, and with Israeli Elta EL/L-8222 Jammer, is also equipped with R-77 long range BVR, and lethal R-73 (AA11 Archer)



IrbiS said:


> Isn't this exactly what India has tried to pull off? and that too not using planes but JAHAAZs if you know what I mean



No I don't understand the meaning of JAHAAZ but yes the idea is the Brahmos-NG/MINI which will enable every planes of the IAF to carry them, and the JAHAAZ (MKI) might be able to carry 5.


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## IrbiS

zebra7 said:


> LOLZ, Russians have a long history and experience with the IRST, and it is an standard part of the Russian/Soviet birds. For crappy IRST, and AA-11 Archer -- Should I laugh.
> R73, with the sensetive, cryogenic cooled seaker, can see the target 40 km away, and could be targeted by just looking toward the target, with cueing with the Helmet mouted display, and have bore sight, and is considered as very dangerous and lethal weapon by US and NATO.




Don't put your words in my mouth. I called IRST crappy not the ARCHER. If I wanted to, could've written two crappies!

Come on. you know it cant hit a target when fired from 40km away. Didn't reckon u are kinda guy to believe paper specs.






zebra7 said:


> LOLZ, India paid more for Mirrage 2000 Upgrade compared to whom F-16 A/B of PAF MLU ??
> 
> 1. Does the MLUes part includes the extensive upgrade e.g the Modular Mission computer Artitecture.
> 
> 2. Does the MLU also includes the BVR 400 MICA IR/RF.
> 
> 3. Does the MLU/upgrade will allow 40year/6000 hours of the life. (Better ask your senior, whether the MLU Package of the F-16 A/B contains any Engine Pratt and Witney F-100 PW-200 turbofan OR lust the MRO kit)



Let's talk money. We paid $650 million for a ton of weapons including 500 AMRAAMs among other items.

$1.3 billion for 60 upgrade kits plus $150 million for structural modifications and Engine enhancement from F-100-200 to F-100-229 (Pakistan had upgraded to 100-200 years ago along with structural upgrades during sanctions period) and will seek update in the future as Lockheed is currently developing 6000 hours upgrade.






zebra7 said:


> Then PAF might know that the RAM coating developed exclusively for the MIG-21 Bison, reduces the RCS to 1/10 of the RCS of the Mig-21, and with Israeli Elta EL/L-8222 Jammer, is also equipped with R-77 long range BVR, and lethal R-73 (AA11 Archer)



ROSE and JF-17





zebra7 said:


> No I don't understand the meaning of JAHAAZ but yes the idea is the Brahmos-NG/MINI which will enable every planes of the IAF to carry them, and the JAHAAZ (MKI) might be able to carry 5.



Kamra doesn't ring a bell?


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## zebra7

IrbiS said:


> Don't put your words in my mouth. I called IRST crappy not the ARCHER. If I wanted to, could've written two crappies!
> 
> Come on. you know it cant hit a target when fired from 40km away. Didn't reckon u are kinda guy to believe paper specs.



Ok, then I take my words back. But doesn't the High Bore sight, high maneuverable IR guided WVR Missile of long range is a great threat.



IrbiS said:


> Let's talk money. We paid $650 million for a ton of weapons including 500 AMRAAMs among other items.



OK but the Mirrage 2000 H upgrade to Mirrage 2005 includes the MICA IR/RF BVRAAM



IrbiS said:


> $1.3 billion for 60 upgrade kits plus $150 million for structural modifications and Engine enhancement from F-100-200 to F-100-229 (Pakistan had upgraded to 100-200 years ago along with structural upgrades during sanctions period) and will seek update in the future as Lockheed is currently developing 6000 hours upgrade.



1. Just give me the Link that shows the Engine enhancement from F-100 200 to F/100-229 upgradation kit instead of MRO kit.

2. The F-16 A/B purchased with Peace Gate 1 and Peace Gate 2 -- 40 in number minus 8 loss was desinged for the A2A role, and the life of the Structual Airframe depends on the Stress, but since PAF was forced to use it for A2G laid down heavy stress. The structural Modifications kits includes only the modification of certain parts, prone to cracks and deformation due to stress. It allows to give strengthening of the airframe parts but not rectify the cracks which is already been done. And by 2007, PAF already conducted 100,000 hours of flight with its 32 birds.

3. The Phalcon SLEP program, by the LM to increase the Airframe of the F-16 Block 30 (F-16 C/D) and not for the F-16 A/B, thats why there are so many countries in the world waiting so desperately for the F-35.

4. Why looking at the price tag with narrow mind, when not comparing the comprehensive Upgradation, and the partial upgradation. In short Mirrage 2005 would be able to give its service to IAF till 2030-35, if you think the MLUed F-16 A/B could also do that, than its good for you.



IrbiS said:


> ROSE and JF-17



ROSE Upgradation won't allow the Mirrage 3/5 to make them worthy till 2030, like Jaguar Darin -3, which includes the Honeywell Engine. P.S. HAL have all the tools, and jigs to license produce its airframe anytime.

JF-17 Still in IOC stage, though been supported by PAF, and inducted into service. But question is does it is PAR to F-16 Block 52, and answer me unbiased.



IrbiS said:


> Kamra doesn't ring a bell?



What ring a bell ??

HAL, Tata Aerospace, Reliance Aerospace, Godrej Aerospace, Mahindra Aerospace there are 20 Aerospace Pvt company in India now.

And don't undermine Tata, Reliance, Godrej, Mahindra budget and turnover. The top 4 Indian company turnover is equal to the whole GDP of the Pakistan.

*Does it ring a Bell Brother.*


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## IrbiS

zebra7 said:


> But doesn't the High Bore sight, high maneuverable IR guided WVR Missile of long range is a great threat.



Yeah and you will be facing similar threat on the western border in coming days




zebra7 said:


> OK but the Mirrage 2000 H upgrade to Mirrage 2005 includes the MICA IR/RF BVRAAM



You will be buying MICA from MBDA, why is Dassault charging that much? Like F-16 were upgraded by LM but Raytheon provided missiles and 500 AMRAAMs cost around $250 million.





zebra7 said:


> 1. Just give me the Link that shows the Engine enhancement from F-100 200 to F/100-229 upgradation kit instead of MRO kit.
> 
> 2. The F-16 A/B purchased with Peace Gate 1 and Peace Gate 2 -- 40 in number minus 8 loss was desinged for the A2A role, and the life of the Structual Airframe depends on the Stress, but since PAF was forced to use it for A2G laid down heavy stress. The structural Modifications kits includes only the modification of certain parts, prone to cracks and deformation due to stress. It allows to give strengthening of the airframe parts but not rectify the cracks which is already been done. And by 2007, PAF already conducted 100,000 hours of flight with its 32 birds.
> 
> 3. The Phalcon SLEP program, by the LM to increase the Airframe of the F-16 Block 30 (F-16 C/D) and not for the F-16 A/B, thats why there are so many countries in the world waiting so desperately for the F-35.
> 
> 4. Why looking at the price tag with narrow mind, when not comparing the comprehensive Upgradation, and the partial upgradation. In short Mirrage 2005 would be able to give its service to IAF till 2030-35, if you think the MLUed F-16 A/B could also do that, than its good for you.



It's available u can search if it's worth your time and 229 transformation was done by PAC Kamra. My connection is really giving me a hard time.

Not 32 but 31 of the original 40 are left, one crashed in 2009 which some speculate was purposefully done to provide China with U.S technology 

Why do you think we will be out of F-16s? More will be coming

So now I'm narrow minded when u can't tell me why u were overcharged





zebra7 said:


> ROSE Upgradation won't allow the Mirrage 3/5 to make them worthy till 2030, like Jaguar Darin -3, which includes the Honeywell Engine. P.S. HAL have all the tools, and jigs to license produce its airframe anytime.



We don't have to match IAF in numbers. Pakistan got no expansion or global power projection goals, neither that kinda money nor we'll attack India first. It's just for safeguarding our own country




zebra7 said:


> JF-17 Still in IOC stage, though been supported by PAF, and inducted into service. But question is does it is PAR to F-16 Block 52, and answer me unbiased.




PAF doesn't exactly like to make a scrapbook for every step its babies take. That thing which you say is in IOC, is sitting ADA duties with live weapons and is fully integrated in our NetCentric environment with F-16 jocks on controls.

*It's like Apples and Oranges, or let me rephrase it : Apple and Huawei  You got most sought after product on one hand that got no match but it got restrictions in some areas. On the other hand, you got your own version of Android and you can fiddle with it anyway you want. Now what you asked is if we really like our own Huawei? I think we would've loved us a flagship model better, not a mid-ranger.*





zebra7 said:


> *Does it ring a Bell Brother.*



Was talking about Kamra attack in refrence to your comment that AEW&Cs will be India's 1st priority

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## HRK

zebra7 said:


> MIG-21 Bison, reduces the RCS to 1/10 of the RCS of the Mig-21,



I would appreciate any credible link about this CLAIM (other than this no more off topic posting )

& just to straight the record I am attaching some screenshot below



zebra7 said:


> and with Israeli Elta EL/L-8222 Jammer, is also equipped with R-77 long range BVR, and lethal R-73 (AA11 Archer)
















zebra7 said:


> Do you know MIG-21 Bison is also BVR Capable, was very sucessful against the USAF during Dact exercise, when backed by MKI.















Link to report CAG report: http://www.cag.gov.in/sites/default...mpliance_Defence_Air_Force_Report_38_2015.pdf
=======================================
*General Warning for all members *

*No more off-topic posting .....*

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## zebra7

HRK said:


> I would appreciate any credible link about this CLAIM (other than this no more off topic posting )
> 
> & just to straight the record I am attaching some screenshot below
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 301377
> View attachment 301379
> View attachment 301378
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 301380
> 
> View attachment 301386
> View attachment 301387
> 
> 
> Link to report CAG report: http://www.cag.gov.in/sites/default...mpliance_Defence_Air_Force_Report_38_2015.pdf
> =======================================
> *General Warning for all members *
> 
> *No more off-topic posting .....*



Allow me some time to response to you posting in some other thread, SIR.

I understand, the discussion was going too off topic and I regret for that.

@HRK could you comment on the Engine change from F-100 220 to F-100 229 under Peace Drive -II program done by TAI.


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## HRK

zebra7 said:


> Allow me some time to response to you posting in some other thread, SIR.
> 
> I understand, the discussion was going too off topic and I regret for that.
> 
> @HRK could you comment on the Engine change from F-100 220 to F-100 229 under Peace Drive -II program done by TAI.



Watch PAC documentary at PAC website .... if a I am not wrong Engine issue is mention in that

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## IrbiS

HRK said:


> I would appreciate any credible link about this CLAIM (other than this no more off topic posting )
> 
> & just to straight the record I am attaching some screenshot below
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 301377
> View attachment 301379
> View attachment 301378
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 301380
> 
> View attachment 301386
> View attachment 301387
> 
> 
> Link to report CAG report: http://www.cag.gov.in/sites/default...mpliance_Defence_Air_Force_Report_38_2015.pdf
> =======================================
> *General Warning for all members *
> 
> *No more off-topic posting .....*



Nailed it!


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## v9s

zebra7 said:


> Does it is BVR Capable, have helmet high bore sight cued missile abroad, what is the range of the Radar --Griffo


\
Yes it is. I won't hold your hand. You'll have to search.

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## Quwa

PAF F-16A/B went through the Falcon STAR program, which is meant to ensure the airframe reaches 8000 hours.


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## LonE_WolF

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/723171639307935744

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## T-55

Pakistan‬-‎China‬ air force joint exercise in Pakistan "Shaheen-V"


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## Introvert

*JF-17 logs over 19,000 operational flight hours*

The Pakistan Air Force’s JF-17s have logged over 19,000 operational flight hours, talks are also underway with up to eight countries interested in the Thunder

By Bilal Khan

Alan Warnes, an aviation journalist and leading Pakistan Air Force (PAF) watcher, recently reported that the PAF’s JF-17s have logged more than 19,000 operational fight hours since the fighter’s induction into active service in 2011. There are 65 JF-17s in the PAF (allocated to three operational fighter squadrons and a training unit belonging to Combat Commanders School).

Although the dual-seat JF-17B is slated for induction by April 2017, Alan Warnes was able to learn from PAF officials that the first JF-17B will be delivered to Pakistan by December of this year.

Elsewhere, Pakistan’s Minister of Defence Production, Rana Tanveer Hussain, told Pakistani media outlets that Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) was in talks with “seven or eight” countries over the possibility of selling JF-17s. Details into which countries were not disclosed.

*Comment & Analysis*

It will be interesting to see how the introduction of the JF-17B will impact those talks. The dual-seat JF-17B is expected to strengthen PAC’s ability to market the Thunder to prospective buyers.

Not only will it offer a familiar means for training and converting to the JF-17, but the PAF could even market the JF-17B as a stand-alone solution. For example, the JF-17B will essentially be used as a lead-in fighter trainer (LIFT) or fighter conversion unit (FCU) platform in the PAF. PAC could market the JF-17B as a low-cost LIFT, one with a comprehensive training package involving high-fidelity simulators as well.

Alternatively, integration with a competitive targeting pod and a wide range of air-to-ground munitions (such as laser-guided bombs, missiles and rockets) and stand-off weapons (such as anti-ship cruise missiles and glide-bombs) could position the JF-17B as a low-cost attack fighter.

For air forces with limited funding and/or access to Western goods, a JF-17B strike platform could be an interesting means to both replace far less capable older jets (such as the MiG-21) as well as affordably build modern qualitative capabilities – such as precision-strike and anti-ship warfare.

In fact, packaging an end-to-end solution that includes various air-to-ground munitions could open up an opportunity for Pakistan to vertically integrate customers, and thus, open up additional opportunities for the Pakistani defence industry.

By being the primary source of the JF-17’s munitions, organizations such as Global Industrial Defence Solutions (GIDS), National Engineering and Scientific Commission (NESCOM), and Pakistan Ordnance Factories (POF) could enhance the JF-17’s value proposition as well as increase the revenue accrued from its sale. This could also be way to offset the cost of raising local production capacities for munitions, particularly expensive ones such as anti-ship missiles or new-generation air-to-air missiles.

http://quwa.org/2016/04/29/jf-17-logs-19000-operational-flight-hours/

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## PDF

We might counter Rafale with Euro typhoon. Funding is the main issue but we can come around the problem.


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## fatman17

*May 3/16: *The Sri Lankan media has reported






that Pakistan has offered its JF-17 fighter at $29 million each to the Sri Lankan Air Force (SLAF). Islamabad has been pressing the Sri Lankan government to replace its fleet of MiG-27 and Kfir fleets with its indigenous aircraft, but the deal has been met with opposition from India. Instead, it is thought that the SLAF will purchase fighters from Russia, believed to be in the price range of $20-25 million per aircraft.

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## fatman17

*Two-Seat Variant of China-Pakistan JF-17 Fighter Jet to Fly in 2016*
The latest JF-17 fighter jet will be a combat-capable trainer-variant of the aircraft.






By Franz-Stefan Gady for The Diplomat
May 03, 2016


China and Pakistan are developing a combat-capable two-seat trainer variant of the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex/Chengdu Aerospace Corporation (PAC/CAC) JF-17 Thunder combat aircraft, _Flight Global _reports.

“The only significant change to the aircraft apart from the extra seat is a dorsal fin that contains an additional fuel tank. This means the JF-17B’s fuel load is comparable to the single seater,” according to _Flight Global_. “Production of the first JF-17B was initiated by Pakistan and China during a joint ceremony at Chengdu Aerospace Corporation,” the Pakistan-based_ Dawn _newspaper reported on April 28. CAC is located in Chengdu city in Sichuan province in southwest China.

A defense official working on the JF-17B program emphasized that there will be “no loss in combat capability with the addition of the extra seat.” Chinese and Pakistani representatives familiar with the JF-17N program have repeatedly said that a two-seat variant of the aircraft is under development. The first flight of the two-seat variant is planned for the end of 2016; the PAF plans to induct the first JF-17B in April 2017.

The JF-17 is a lightweight, single-engine, multirole combat aircraft, powered by a Russian-designed but Chinese-built Klimov RD-93 (RD-33 derivative) turbofan, capable of reaching a top speed of Mach 1.6. The fighter purportedly has an operational range of around 1,200 kilometers (745 miles).

According to _IHS Jane’s Defense Weekly, _the aircraft has “seven underwing/fuselage hardpoints, and is equipped with an internal GSh-23-2 twin-barrel cannon. Weapon options include up to four PL-5, -7, -8 or -9 short-range air-to-air missiles (AAMs) or four PL-12/SD-10B medium-range AAMs; two C-802A anti-ship missiles; two anti-radiation missiles; five 500 kg bombs; twin launchers for up to eight 250 kg, MK-20, GBU-12 or anti-runway bombs; single 1,000 kg bomb or GBU-10; or up to three mission pods.”

Pakistan purportedly has the capacity to assemble up to 25 aircraft per year without Chinese assistance. As I reported previously, Pakistan produces 58 percent of the airframe and China 42 percent respectively. The chief of air staff, Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman, said this year in April that Pakistan intends to build a total of 24 fighter jets in 2016.

The JF-17 is in service with the Pakistan Air Force (PAF), where it is meant to replace the PAF’s aging fleet of of Dassault Mirage III/5 fighter jets by 2020. In April, the PAF inducted 16 upgraded JF-17 Thunder Block II fighter jets in Kamra, also known as Aviation City, the center of aircraft manufacturing in Pakistan (See: “China and Pakistan Air Forces Launch Joint Training Exercise”). Overall, there are 65 JF-17 aircraft currently in service with the PAF. Since its induction in 2011, the aircraft have accumulated a total of 19,000 operational flight hours.

The JF-17 Block II aircraft features upgraded avionics, an air-to-air refueling probe, an enhanced oxygen system, and an improved electronic countermeasures system, in addition to a number of smaller upgrades. Block II fighter jets also carry a heavier payload than Block I aircraft.

A number of countries have expressed interest in the JF-17, including Argentina, Bangladesh, Bulgaria, Nigeria, the Philippines, Venezuela, and Zimbabwe. Pakistan claims that it already has the JF-17′s first international customer. However, until now, Islamabad has not revealed the name of the Asian country that will procure the fighter jet.


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## Windjammer

*over a dozen Mirages in one picture.*

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## fatman17

Industry
*Pakistani-US F-16 deal hits another snag*
*Farhan Bokhari, Islamabad* - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
09 May 2016





The rift between Washington and Islamabad may further delay the sale of eight F-16s fighters to Pakistan. Source: Pakistan Air Force
*Key Points*

The US has dropped the subsidy it had offered for Pakistan's purchase of eight F-16s
Islamabad insists the deal must be 'free of any preconditions'

The US sale of Lockheed Martin F-16 fighters to Pakistan may have hit another snag. A senior Pakistani government official said on 7 May that Islamabad would not accept any "preconditions" attached to the purchase of eight US-made F-16C/D Block 52 multirole fighters, causing further uncertainty about the deal and possibly prompting Islamabad to look elsewhere for alternatives.

Speaking to journalists in Islamabad, Foreign Secretary Aizaz Ahmad Chaudhry said that, while Pakistan needs the aircraft for its ongoing campaign against Taliban militants, the F-16 transaction "must come free of any preconditions".

The statement comes after the US State Department told reporters on 3 May that Pakistan would have to "put forward national funds" to buy the fighter jets after members of the US Congress objected to using the Foreign Military Financing (FMF) programme to subsidise the deal.

This means that Pakistan will have to pay the full amount of USD699 million for the eight US-made fighters along with associated equipment. Originally, deal was supposed to cost the South Asian nation around USD270 million, with the rest of the funds - USD430 million - coming from the FMF.

The US State Department approved the F-16 sale, comprising two single-seat F-16Cs and six twin-seat F-16Ds, in February. However, the deal has been opposed by some members of the US Congress on the grounds that Pakistan has not done enough against insurgents and terrorist groups.

The differing viewpoints and delays have had an impact. A Pakistani government official recently told _IHS Jane's_ that "alternative aircraft from other sources are being considered should the F-16 deal collapse". In fact, the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has been looking at Chinese-manufactured J-10 and the J-20 stealth fighters for future purchase and Western defence officials have told _IHS Jane's_ that Moscow has informed Islamabad about its willingness to sell a batch of Sukhoi Su-35 fighters.

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## batool100

Pakistan Air Force Zindabad , We proud of you and Your Great Talent .., If anyone want to join the Pakistan AirForce here is the guide you can follow :

How to join PAF

How to join female PAF

How to join PAF as Pilot

[URL='http://pakistan.jobz.pk/how-to-join-pakistan-air-force-after-b-sc-b-com-b-a-graduation-2016/']How to join PAF after bsc, bcom, ba, graduation[/URL]


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## HRK

fatman17 said:


> Western defence officials have told _IHS Jane's_ that Moscow has informed Islamabad about its willingness to sell a batch of Sukhoi Su-35 fighters



..... this thing remind me an old Ghazal of Muhammad Taqi (Mir Taqi Mir) sang by Medhi Hassan ....

*"Yeh dhuan sa kahan se uthta hai"*






.... & it's not an off-topic comment ....

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## fatman17

No 3 Erieye AWACS Squadron is called Angels.

Quote "I do read from the big shrimps on Chinese bbs that PAF pilots are better than PLAAF pilots. If that is still the case, then it makes even more sense for PLAAF to train more regularly with PAF." Unquote.

china air and naval power.

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## fatman17

*Pakistan says Turkey to help modernise its F-16 fleet *

* Imtiaz Ahmed, Hindustan Times, Islamabad*
| 
Updated: May 15, 2016 19:32 IST





A Pakistani airforce F-16 plane flies over a Pakistani national flag. (Reuters File)



Pakistan said that Turkey has agreed to help modernise its F-16 fleet at a cost of 75 million dollars, in the wake of US refusal of Islamabad’s request to help fund the purchase of eight fighter jets.

Earlier this month, the State Department had expressed inability to fund the $700 million deal with American tax payers’ money and the US asked Pakistan to use its “national funds” to buy the jets after some top Senators put a hold on the deal.

Through the official news agency, APP, the Pakistan government said this week that Pakistan and Turkey had struck a deal in an aviation project under which Istanbul will modernize Pakistan’s fighter planes and that some of them have already been flown to Turkey.

APP quoted Volkan Yuzer, the regional coordinator of the Turkey-Asia Pacific Council of Foreign Economic Relations Board (DEIK), as saying that Turkey was manufacturing engines of the F-16 jets, besides making some spare parts.

Pakistan and Turkey enjoy excellent relations. Over this weekend, prime minister Nawaz Sharif visited Turkey to participate in the marraige ceremony of the daughter of Turkish president Recep Erdogan. 



In contrast, relations with the US seem to be under a cloud. Earlier this month, Pakistan’s advisor to the PM on Foreign Affairs, Sartaz Aziz has said that his country would acquire jets from elsewhere if the US does not arrange funding for a previously agreed upon F-16 fighter jet sale.

“If funding is arranged, Pakistan will get the F-16s, otherwise we will opt for jets from some other place,” Aziz had said.

The US gives Pakistan $265 million as part of foreign military assistance, Aziz said, adding in previous years it was $300 million. The amount received is split between the three branches of the armed forces. Pakistan Air Force’s share is $80 million, which they had allocated for the last three years to buy the jets, he said.

“The funding we received was part of normal military funding received from US, and not specifically meant for the purchase of F-16s. The US has informed us that we can use the funds for purchase of other military equipment and items, but not F-16s,” he added.

Pakistan had earlier reached an understanding with the US for buying eight F-16 planes. Under the deal, Pakistan was required to pay about $270 million from its national funds. The US was supposed to provide the rest from its Foreign Military Financing (FMF) fund. But at a Congressional hearing, US lawmakers made it clear that they would not allow the Obama administration to use US funds for the deal.

l.


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## TaimiKhan

fatman17 said:


> No 3 Erieye AWACS Squadron is called Angels.
> 
> Quote "I do read from the big shrimps on Chinese bbs that PAF pilots are better than PLAAF pilots. If that is still the case, then it makes even more sense for PLAAF to train more regularly with PAF." Unquote.
> 
> china air and naval power.



And that is the reason why PLAAF has started regular exercises with PAF. Its not just pilot thing, its the whole operational setup of PAF that impressed the Chinese. The air tactics displayed by PAF were much superior to what the PLAAF had incorporated, which results in better performance for us in these Shaheen exercises. You can judge the Chinese need for learning by their sending of different aircraft to these exercises. We recently saw the J-8s for latest addition & -Su-30, J-11s, J-10s, J-7s all their frontline & main fighters have been brought. It shows their eagerness to learn and put their all front line fighters against PAF pilots to judge the performance of their fighters & pilots and learn. 

The recent Shaheen exercise went on for weeks, if you guys remember i told you guys that Chinese are here around 3-4 weeks back before the story came on news. 

Its good we can help them in learning and in return we learn from them.

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## HRK

Windjammer said:


> *over a dozen Mirages in one picture.*



plz post link to this video ....


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## MastanKhan

TaimiKhan said:


> And that is the reason why PLAAF has started regular exercises with PAF. Its not just pilot thing, its the whole operational setup of PAF that impressed the Chinese. The air tactics displayed by PAF were much superior to what the PLAAF had incorporated, which results in better performance for us in these Shaheen exercises. You can judge the Chinese need for learning by their sending of different aircraft to these exercises. We recently saw the J-8s for latest addition & -Su-30, J-11s, J-10s, J-7s all their frontline & main fighters have been brought. It shows their eagerness to learn and put their all front line fighters against PAF pilots to judge the performance of their fighters & pilots and learn.
> 
> The recent Shaheen exercise went on for weeks, if you guys remember i told you guys that Chinese are here around 3-4 weeks back before the story came on news.
> 
> Its good we can help them in learning and in return we learn from them.




Hi,

Chinese have some exposure to western tactics and modern warfare like Thai air force. You can do war games amongst yourself for as long as you want to---but the real test comes into play---when you put your pilots against the pilots of another nation who enjoys some kind of claim of fame.

And specially after this f16 crisis---paf is not going to be held back in sharing and learning with and from the chinese---.

The F16 fiasco is going to play as a double edged sword against the U S---. They lost a good ally in pakistan---. Paf is going for the chinese equipment no holds barred---chinese pilots will get a very good exposure of paf piklots---and the good thing about the chinese pilots is---they are keen & eager to learn and operate---they are not going to forget what they learnt---.

I would say that it is going to count as the worst decision that the U S made---it lost a solid ally---and if it come to it---it will be facing a better trained and well versed in combat chinese pilot.

Only the americans can fck up the way do.

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## Windjammer

HRK said:


> plz post link to this video ....


@HRK.





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=964027150371246







HRK said:


> plz post link to this video ....


@HRK.





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=964027150371246

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## HRK

Windjammer said:


> @HRK.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=964027150371246
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @HRK.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=964027150371246

















what a precise delivery of dumb bombs by JF-17 .....

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## Cool_Soldier

Nice performance by jf17


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## Barmaley

New Mi-171E for PAF.  May 2016

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## Manticore

Barmaley said:


> New Mi-171E for PAF.  May 2016


link to thread please
ty


----------



## fatman17

*TAI in Talks to Upgrade Pakistani F-16s*

 Burak Ege Bekdil, Defense News 1:50 p.m. EDT May 24, 2016

ANKARA, Turkey — Tusas Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) is negotiating with Pakistan to upgrade 74 Pakistani Air Force (PAF) F-16 fighters, company officials said.

“The negotiations are being held through our Pakistani representative,” a TAI official said. “We are hopeful about an eventual deal in view of our excellent relations with PAF.”

If finalized the deal will involve upgrades on a batch of 74 PAF F-16 aircraft, including 14 fighters Pakistan will acquire from Jordan.

But for any Turkish-Pakistani deal a US go-ahead is required.

“We are in talks [with the Pakistani officials] but it is not certain that we shall win the contract,” the TAI official said. “These [Pakistani] aircraft will need a US permission for any upgrade program.”


In an earlier upgrade program for 41 F-16s, Pakistan wanted the job to be done locally but failed to win US permission. But the US agreed that TAI could carry out the upgrade work.

In September 2014, TAI delivered the last batch of four upgraded F-16s to PAF. That program involved avionics and structural modernization.

TAI, which assembled F-16 fighter jets in Turkey in the 1980s and 1990s, today manufactures parts for Boeing helicopter-maker Sikorsky. The company also is a participant in the multinational Joint Strike Fighter program and the A400M, known in Turkey as the Future Large Aircraft.

TAI has upgraded scores of Turkish F-16s, too. But in a more ambitious program the company has been designing an indigenous Turkish fighter aircraft.

“Pakistan wants the new upgrade program to be done locally, like in the first program,” said a Turkish procurement official. “Local upgrade work is their first choice but if they fail to win the US permission for that they will probably go for the TAI option, like in the previous deal.”

A team of TAI and Turkish procurement officials will visit Pakistan in July for detailed talks on the F-16 upgrade program.

A Turkish official said that Ankara expects contract negotiations with Pakistan, including potential US approval for TAI’s upgrade deal, would take around two years.

“There is a lot to discuss, negotiate and discuss and negotiate again,” said one procurement official familiar with the contract.

He said that at this stage it is not clear what the Pakistani upgrade program will involve.

“The [Pakistani] requirement is not clear in terms of technological concept,” the official said. “It is not clear at this stage what upgrades would be involved and how much the work will cost.”

The previous TAI-PAF contract covering upgrades on 41 aircraft was worth $64.5 million. The 2008 deal saw TAI upgrade Pakistan’s older and then-newly acquired surplus F-16s to Block-52+ standard from 2010 onward.

Industry sources say if the Pakistani requirement is similar to that in the previous contract the new deal could be around $100 million.

Turkey and Pakistan traditionally have had good political relations. In recent years Pakistan has become an emerging market for Turkey’s defense companies, including a deal for the midlife upgrade of Pakistani F-16s, and Turkish engineering support for a logistical support ship for the Pakistani Navy.






A deal for a fleet tanker/replenishment ship was signed by Pakistan's Karachi Shipyard & Engineering Works and Turkish technology and engineering firm STM in 2014. The vessel will be built in Karachi under STM supervision and delivered in 2017.

But Turkish officials usually view Pakistan as “not rich enough in cash” to buy the equipment or work Turkish companies wish to sell. A large Turkish-Pakistani deal to help Pakistan build Turkish designed corvettes fizzled out in 2009 when Pakistan's economy tanked, and matters have hardly improved since then.

Yet Turkey also is trying to sell two more of its indigenous systems to Pakistan: the Hurkus, a basic trainer aircraft and the T-129, a helicopter gunship TAI produces under license from the Italian-British AgustaWestlan. For any deal to sell the T-129, however, Turkey must obtain US permission to export the LHTEC CTS800-4N engine powering the attack helicopter.


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## Shabi1

So upgrades for 14 ex Jordanian jets plus rest of the fleet. The remaining F-16A/Bs have received MLUs, what further upgrades can be done to them? I could only find the F-16V package, but that one has AESA.


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## araz

Shabi1 said:


> So upgrades for 14 ex Jordanian jets plus rest of the fleet. The remaining F-16A/Bs have received MLUs, what further upgrades can be done to them? I could only find the F-16V package, but that one has AESA.


The news does not make sense. There cannot be a whole fleet upgrade. 
A


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## aftab_s81

These are 8 F-16s to be upgraded for some ~76m$s (can't remember exact figure).


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## RAMPAGE

RPAF Supermarine Spitfire at Kohat. Notice the pretty girl. 







@fatman17 @hassan1 

Can either of you guys confirm that this is one of ours?

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## Basel

A fighter jet just passed over Gulshan-e-Iqbal block-5 very fast and very very low, is there any exercise going on or something else?


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## fatman17

Testing


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## fatman17

For the PAF


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## araz

A few days ago Isaw a post about a recent interview with AVM Arshad Malik. Cant find it now. Could anyone please post a link.
A


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## RAMPAGE

araz said:


> A few days ago Isaw a post about a recent interview with AVM Arshad Malik. Cant find it now. Could anyone please post a link.
> A


There was video from last year's Dubai air show. Is that the one you're taking about?

Edit: *Paris Air show

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## Thorough Pro

Basel said:


> A fighter jet just passed over Gulshan-e-Iqbal block-5 very fast and very very low, is there any exercise going on or something else?


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## fatman17

*Pakistan Seeks Greater Indigenization for Next Air Force Fighter*

 Usman Ansari, Defense News 4:29 p.m. EDT May 31, 2016

ISLAMABAD — The top Pakistan Air Force (PAF) chief has outlined plans for greater indigenous design and technical/industrial input with its next fighter, which it hopes to realize under the Vision 2030 program.

In an interview aired by the national broadcaster PTV, Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman said Vision 2030 aims for greater indigenization of avionics, communication systems, and other subsystems and components for a fifth generation fighter.

He accepted there are budgetary and research challenges, but said human resources and infrastructure was being developed to ensure that 10-15 years from now these goals could be achieved.

A major aspect of this is Aviation City near Pakistan Aeronautical Complex in Kamra, the home of Pakistan’s aviation industry, which will have its own higher education facilities to nurture talent for the indigenization process.

The Chinese Shenyang J-31, (or development thereof), is strongly speculated to be Pakistan’s choice of fifth generation fighter. However, author, analyst and former Air Force pilot Kaiser Tufail believes this is still unclear, but “emphasis on an indigenous design” is serious.




DEFENSE NEWS

TAI in Talks to Upgrade Pakistani F-16s




DEFENSE NEWS

Pakistan Signs JF-17 Agreement With Sri Lanka


The air chief “is well aware of the limitations in exercising full operational autonomy over foreign-supplied weapon systems. Additionally, the perennial issue of sanctions has hobbled PAF's front-line fighters continually, something that a small air force can ill-afford,” he said.

As also outlined by Aman, Tufail believes the JF-17 program laid the groundwork and “instilled sufficient confidence” to consider moving from a 50-50 partnership, as with the JF-17, to one featuring perhaps 70 percent to 80 percent “local design and production.”

Tufail thinks the existing, “highly qualified and well-trained crop of engineers and technicians” are ready to take up the challenge and can form the nucleus of a wider knowledge and technical pool to provide “the basic wherewithal which can be tailored to the new requirements without much difficulty.”

However, he said a failure to turn around Pakistan’s “mismanaged and under-taxed national economy” will effectively doom the program as increased defense spending “does not go well with political governments whose focus always remains on showy development projects.”



RAMPAGE said:


> RPAF Supermarine Spitfire at Kohat. Notice the pretty girl.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @fatman17 @hassan1
> 
> Can either of you guys confirm that this is one of ours?



RIAF pre-1947

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## Dr. Abdul Basit

Hi Guyz, 
For past couple of weeks i see mirages regularly taking off from Peshawar Airbase, while before that it was only JF-17 thunder that replaced the previous A-5C Fantans...any idea whats going on?

regards

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## fatman17

June 5 S/L Azam shoots down an Israel Mystere

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## fatman17

Anatolian Eagle, Konya, June 8th

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## fatman17

Just a nice picture

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## UkroTurk

You may convert your old fighters to UAV drone or cruise missile like China. You are strategic partner of China. China would help to convert.


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## Windjammer

The eyes have the attitude.

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## Zain Malik

Windjammer said:


> The eyes have the attitude.



This attitude make our enemies being afraid of us....!!


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## MastanKhan

Windjammer said:


> The eyes have the attitude.




Isn't that what Yuvraj Singh does---gives mean looks to people so that match fixers stay away from him.


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## khanasifm

How Successful was CFT on F6, this is the only



a/c ever shown???

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## SQ8

khanasifm said:


> How Successful was CFT on F6, this is the only
> View attachment 310100
> a/c ever shown???


Quite a bit. The F-6s of the latter day carried these CFT's(called gondola tanks) for quite a bit of their operational service in the latter years.


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## fatman17

khanasifm said:


> How Successful was CFT on F6, this is the only
> View attachment 310100
> a/c ever shown???



Was discontinued after a short stint.


----------



## Windjammer

khanasifm said:


> How Successful was CFT on F6, this is the only
> View attachment 310100
> a/c ever shown???


They proved a great addition to F-6s short legged performance, however with Gondola tanks attached, the only disadvantage was that the air brakes couldn't be applied which can be seen extended in the bottom image.

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## S.U.R.B.

UkroTurk said:


> You may convert your old fighters to UAV drone or cruise missile like China. You are strategic partner of China. China would help to convert.







The number of J-6 /F-6 left are mostly stripped of any gadgets and equipment that may leave them fly worthy again.Some of them were gifted to BAF( Bangladesh).The remaining were used for open display at few famous sites all around the country.




I'm very skeptical that the PAF can go on that route to invest and maintain a strength of F-6s as UAVs.But they sure operate the F-7pgs which are due to be replaced by the JFTs. And those airframes must have the number( the strength that justifies the investment ) and life left in them to be used in some other roles as you have mentioned like a UAV/UCAVs.



Windjammer said:


> The eyes have the attitude




The attitude of a stubborn teenage girl?

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## fatman17

S.U.R.B. said:


> The number of J-6 /F-6 left are mostly stripped of any gadgets and equipment that may leave them fly worthy again.Some of them were gifted to BAF( Bangladesh).The remaining were used for open display at few famous sites all around the country.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm very skeptical that the PAF can go on that route to invest and maintain a strength of F-6s as UAVs.But they sure operate the F-7pgs which are due to be replaced by the JFTs. And those airframes must have the number( the strength that justifies the investment ) and life left in them to be used in some other roles as you have mentioned like a UAV/UCAVs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The attitude of a stubborn teenage girl?



40 F6s remain in strategic reserve. Hope we never get to use them.

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## fatman17

More from Anatolian Eagle, Konya, June 2016


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## fatman17

Note the Top Gun mark under the nose


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## fatman17

Just a nice pic


----------



## fatman17

Tweet pre flight check


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## Windjammer

*PAF's Typhoon killer.*

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## fatman17

Country Risk

Air forces hone real-world combat skills at 'Anatolian Eagle' exercise in Turkey

Alan Warnes, Konya Air Base, Turkey - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

14 June 2016

Pakistani, Saudi, and Turkish jets on the flightline during 'Anatolian Eagle', which took place at Konya Air Base in southwest Turkey from 24 May to 9 June. Source: Alan Warnes

Italy, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and Turkey came together at the recent 'Anatolian Eagle' exercise for joint training related to the needs of their ongoing real-world combat operations.

The exercise, which took place at Konya Air Base in southwest Turkey from 24 May to 9 June, saw the Turkish Air Force (TuAF) deploy nearly 40 Lockheed Martin F-16s, including the latest Block 50 aircraft and eight McDonnell Douglas F-4E Phantoms. The Italian Air Force (Aeronautica Militare Italiana: AMI) contributed six Panavia Tornado IDS platforms; the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) six F-16AM/BMs; and the Royal Saudi Air Force (RSAF) eight Tornado IDSs.

All of the participant nations are involved in real-world combat operations - the TuAF against Kurdish PKK separatists; the PAF against militants in its Federally Administered Tribal Areas; Saudi Arabia against Houthi rebels in Yemen; and Italy against the Islamic State in the Middle East.

As noted by TuAF exercise commander Lieutenant Colonel Ilker Kurt, the focus of this year's event was "dynamic and time-sensitive targeting, as well as the usual close-air support [CAS] missions. We tailor-made the scenarios to ensure they met the objectives of the participant's requirements. It is not the first time we have done dynamic targeting, but this time we made it a special focus".

Lt Col Kurt, an F-16 pilot, explained a particular exercise scenario. "An F-16 equipped with a Sniper [advanced targeting pod] would record the mission unfolding on the ground and then datalink it to the command and control centre [at Konya], while at the same time a terrorist leader in a car, plotting an attack, was being tracked," he said.

While most of the aircraft were flying in multirole missions, the AMI and RSAF Tornados flew suppression of enemy air defences and CAS sorties in particular. The AMI, which is flying intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance (ISR) missions out of Kuwait in support of the international Operation 'Inherent Resolve' against the Islamic State, also brought a Joint Terminal Attack Controller, as did the Turkish marines and TuAF.

Konya line up.

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## fatman17

Pakistan is to drop its attempts to purchase F-16s from the US , instead opting for a deal to source second-hand aircraft from Jordan. Last month, the potential sale of eight F-16C/D aircraft was brought into question after US Congress objected to using the Foreign Military Financing (FMF) program to subsidize the deal, requiring Islamabad to pay the full amount of $699 million. Speaking to the Senate Standing Committee on Defense and Foreign Policy on Monday, Pakistan’s Foreign Minister Aizaz Chaudhry bemoaned the often strained relations between the two countries commenting “the US has spent 16 years fighting the war on terror. If only it had given six years to the peace process things would have been different.”


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## fatman17

Pakistan, spurned by U.S., considers offer of Jordanian F-16 jets

By REUTERS

June 14, 2016

Pakistan is considering buying used F-16 fighter jets from Jordan, media reported on Tuesday, after a plan to buy eight of the aircraft from the United States fell through because of the refusal of the U.S. Congress to finance the deal.

Some of Pakistan's fleet of F-16 jets are due to be decommissioned in the next few years (incorrect information ) and the government says it needs the aircraft to fight Islamist militants in remote mountains near Afghanistan.

The military also sees the aircraft as vital in case of war against old rival India. The nuclear-armed neighbours have fought three wars since they gained independence from Britain in 1947.

"We are now going for a third-party transfer of F-16s and have an offer from Jordan," Defence Secretary Alam Khattak told a joint sitting of the Senate defence and foreign affairs committees on Monday, newspapers reported.

An air force spokesman declined to say how many F-16s Pakistan has but the number of the aircraft in service is believed to be about 70.(incorrect information )

Jordan had offered to sell Pakistan 16 used F-16s of the Block-30 variant, an older version than the Block-52s that Pakistan would have obtained from the United States, the Dawn newspaper reported.

The U.S. deal, valued at $699 million, came unstuck after the U.S. Congress refused to authorise the use of U.S. government funds to pay for the aircraft under the Foreign Military Financing (FMF) programme.

Members of the U.S. Congress, led by Republican Chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee Bob Corker, demanded that Pakistan stop harbouring militant groups like the Afghan Taliban and Haqqani Network, which are leading an insurgency against a U.S.-backed government in Kabul.

Pakistan say it is acting against the militants, citing military operations in lawless ethnic Pashtun lands that border Afghanistan.

Pakistan says the F-16s, with their precision strike ability and night-flying capability, are essential for that fight.

The difficulty over the F-16 deal was the latest sign of increasingly frayed ties between Pakistan and the United States.

Last month, a U.S. drone killed Mullah Akhtar Mansour, then chief of the Afghan Taliban, on Pakistani soil.

Pakistan condemned the strike as a violation of its sovereignty, and as not being conducive towards encouraging the Taliban to enter talks with the Afghan government.

Pakistan has bought Jordanian F-16s before, procuring 13 of them in 2014, Dawn reported. The current batch on offer were manufactured between 1988 and 1990, and were upgraded in 2001/02.


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## araz

fatman17 said:


> Pakistan, spurned by U.S., considers offer of Jordanian F-16 jets
> 
> By REUTERS
> 
> June 14, 2016
> 
> Pakistan is considering buying used F-16 fighter jets from Jordan, media reported on Tuesday, after a plan to buy eight of the aircraft from the United States fell through because of the refusal of the U.S. Congress to finance the deal.
> 
> Some of Pakistan's fleet of F-16 jets are due to be decommissioned in the next few years (incorrect information ) and the government says it needs the aircraft to fight Islamist militants in remote mountains near Afghanistan.
> 
> The military also sees the aircraft as vital in case of war against old rival India. The nuclear-armed neighbours have fought three wars since they gained independence from Britain in 1947.
> 
> "We are now going for a third-party transfer of F-16s and have an offer from Jordan," Defence Secretary Alam Khattak told a joint sitting of the Senate defence and foreign affairs committees on Monday, newspapers reported.
> 
> An air force spokesman declined to say how many F-16s Pakistan has but the number of the aircraft in service is believed to be about 70.(incorrect information )
> 
> Jordan had offered to sell Pakistan 16 used F-16s of the Block-30 variant, an older version than the Block-52s that Pakistan would have obtained from the United States, the Dawn newspaper reported.
> 
> The U.S. deal, valued at $699 million, came unstuck after the U.S. Congress refused to authorise the use of U.S. government funds to pay for the aircraft under the Foreign Military Financing (FMF) programme.
> 
> Members of the U.S. Congress, led by Republican Chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee Bob Corker, demanded that Pakistan stop harbouring militant groups like the Afghan Taliban and Haqqani Network, which are leading an insurgency against a U.S.-backed government in Kabul.
> 
> Pakistan say it is acting against the militants, citing military operations in lawless ethnic Pashtun lands that border Afghanistan.
> 
> Pakistan says the F-16s, with their precision strike ability and night-flying capability, are essential for that fight.
> 
> The difficulty over the F-16 deal was the latest sign of increasingly frayed ties between Pakistan and the United States.
> 
> Last month, a U.S. drone killed Mullah Akhtar Mansour, then chief of the Afghan Taliban, on Pakistani soil.
> 
> Pakistan condemned the strike as a violation of its sovereignty, and as not being conducive towards encouraging the Taliban to enter talks with the Afghan government.
> 
> Pakistan has bought Jordanian F-16s before, procuring 13 of them in 2014, Dawn reported. The current batch on offer were manufactured between 1988 and 1990, and were upgraded in 2001/02.


I still think there is a mistake. PAF went for 13ADFs last time out of a total of 28. My hunch is it is those fighters which are being procured. Please advise.
A


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## Quwa

I don't even know where and how the Block-30 came into the discussion. Not only does Jordan *not* operate Block-30s, but the PAF will never get Block-30s, they use GE turbofans. If anything, it'd go for Block-32, but those are only available at AMARC in Arizona - in other words, it's something the PAF has to take up with the U.S.

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## ghazi768

Quwa said:


> I don't even know where and how the Block-30 came into the discussion. Not only does Jordan *not* operate Block-30s, but the PAF will never get Block-30s, they use GE turbofans. If anything, it'd go for Block-32, but those are only available at AMARC in Arizona - in other words, it's something the PAF has to take up with the U.S.



Yes mention of block 30 is surprising.
Even if the offered jets are of Belgian and Dutch origin than they will be MLUed to M3 level and were the ones going through latest 6.5 upgrade so I doubt that these are the ones on offer.
Offered one should be the ADF models which went through M5 MLU upgrade, and these are the ones which remained almost in storage all the time practically from their delivery from US and mentioned at times to be awaiting a sale.


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## Arsalan

Quwa said:


> I don't even know where and how the Block-30 came into the discussion. Not only does Jordan *not* operate Block-30s, but the PAF will never get Block-30s, they use GE turbofans. If anything, it'd go for Block-32, but those are only available at AMARC in Arizona - in other words, it's something the PAF has to take up with the U.S.


Something that only cooked in the brains of our super foreign office guys perhaps.


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## HRK

Quwa said:


> I don't even know where and how the Block-30 came into the discussion. Not only does Jordan *not* operate Block-30s, but the PAF will never get Block-30s, they use GE turbofans. If anything, it'd go for Block-32, but those are only available at AMARC in Arizona - in other words, it's something the PAF has to take up with the U.S.



'blk-30' is is used as general term to show the technological standard of Jordanian F-16 (If I am not wrong below blk-30 no F-16 was able to use BVR)


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## ghazi768

HRK said:


> 'blk-30' is is used as general term to show the technological standard of Jordanian F-16 (If I am not wrong below blk-30 no F-16 was able to use BVR)


May be but I do not think this is correct.
Jordanians have two lots of F-16s. One is which were ADF version of US national Guard, that was capable of firing AIM-7 sparrows. But they have been upgraded to be able to fire AIM-120C and I think US had also provided them AIM-120Cs as well.
Second is a Belgian, Dutch lot which already were capable of BVR and AIM-120s.
There may be slight differences in radar's upgraded version depending upon when each got MLUed and what LRUs in radars got replaced at that time.

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## fatman17

Terrorism & Insurgency

Pakistan mulls purchasing used Jordanian F-16s

Farhan Bokhari, Islamabad - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

15 June 2016

Pakistan is considering buying at least 16 used Lockheed Martin F-16 Block 30 Fighting Falcon fighters from Jordan following the collapse of a deal for the purchase of eight new F-16C/D Block 52s from the United States.

Pakistan's defence secretary, Lieutenant General Alam Khattak (retd), told members of the Senate's Standing Committees on Defence and Foreign Affairs on 13 June that the plan to buy F-16s from the US at a subsidised rate was a closed chapter. Instead, he said, "We are now going for a third party transfer of F-16s and have an offer from Jordan."

The statement comes after the US State Department told reporters on 3 May that Pakistan would have to "put forward national funds" to buy the fighter jets after members of the US Congress objected to using the Foreign Military Financing (FMF) programme to subsidise the deal.

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## fatman17

ACM visits FOB Skardu

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## fatman17

Manufacture of First Prototype Two-Seat JF-17B Thunder Begins

Posted on 28 April, 2016

Single-seat Pakistan Air Force JF-17 Thunder 07-102 taxies out for take-off from PAF Base Kamra-Minhas on March 23, 2007. During a ceremony yesterday in China, manufacturing of the first two-seat JF-17B prototype got under way. AFD-Alan Warnes

PAKISTAN AND China have jointly launched manufacturing of the first prototype of a two-seat version of the JF-17 Thunder. During an induction ceremony held at the Chengdu Aerospace Corporation (CAC) facility in Chengdu, China, yesterday, April 27, sub-assembly work on the JF-17B was formally launched.

Air Marshal Muhammad Iqbal, Chief Project Director JF-17, Project Management Office, Pakistan Air Force (PAF), was the chief guest at the occasion. Also attending were the President of CAC, Vice President of CATIC, Vice President of CADI, senior representative of AVIC, related Chinese personnel and PAF officials.

Speaking at the occasion, Air Marshal Muhammad Iqbal highlighted the fact that the dual-seat aircraft will be of great value for the PAF, not only in enhancing training, but also improving operational capability. The induction of dual-seat JF-17B aircraft would also improve its export market prospects in the future. He thanked Chinese leadership for their continuous support in the design, development and manufacturing phases of the JF-17 development project. Chinese leadership paid tribute to the higher authorities of the PAF for making the aircraft operational and expressed their resolve to continue support for development work on the JF-17 project.

The prototype JF-17B is expected to make its maiden flight by the end of this year. It is planned to be formally inducted into PAF service by April 2017. AFD-Dave Allport

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## Signalian

@Quwa 

maximum number of AAM that PAF F-16 ADF can carry?


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## khanasifm

F16 ADF

Modifications included Bendix King (now Allied Signal) AN/ARC-200HF/SSB radios with Have Quick II Secure Speech Module and the Teledyne/E Systems Mk.XII Advanced IFF system (APX-109). T*he APG-66 radar was modified (designated APG-66A) to provide look down/shoot-down capability, enhanced small target detection, and CW (Continuous Wave) illumination for AIM-7 guidance.*

A 150,000 candlepower night identification spotlight was installed on the port side of the nose (below and in front of the cockpit) to aid in the identification of nighttime intruders. T*he aircraft were equipped to carry 600 (US) gallon (2,271 liter) external drop tanks, and to carry 6 BVR missiles such as the AIM-7 Sparrow or AIM-120 AMRAAM.*

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_versions_article14.html







AAM Load
On the F-16, AIM-120 AMRAAMs can be loaded on stations 1 and 9 (1 missile each, wingtip), 2 & 8 (1 missile each) and 3 & 7 (1 missile each).

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_armament_article3.html

Jordanian F16 Inv

Program

*Model* *Block* *Qty.* *Serials* *Delivered*
*Peace Falcon I F-16A Block 15 ADF 12 220/231 1997-1998 

F-16B Block 15 ADF 4 232/235 1997-1998 (with PAF 19 Sqn)
Peace Falcon II F-16A Block 15 ADF 16 Aircraft 671/686 2003(Up for Sale??)

F-16B Block 15 ADF 1 A/c 670 2003 (Up for sale??)*
*Peace Falcon III* F-16A Block 20MLU 12 140/150, 152 2008-2009
F-16B Block 20MLU 4 136/139 2008-2009
*Peace Falcon IV* F-16B Block 20MLU 6 133/138 2009
*Peace Falcon V* F-16A Block 20MLU 6 153/158 2011
F-16B Block 20MLU 3 159/161 2011
*Peace Falcon VI* F-16A Block 20MLU 13 XXX 2016
F-16B Block 20MLU 2 XXX 2016


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## mingle

According To Haris khan PDF PAF is going to buy 40 highend Aircrafts Very Soon these r not j20 or J 31 .F 16 c/da deal fell through they not coming either .PAF opting for used F16s but these 40 r other Aircrafts neither chines nor US .@Zarvan @fatman@Horus @Windjammer @MastanKhan @Quwa

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## Signalian

khanasifm said:


> F16 ADF
> 
> Modifications included Bendix King (now Allied Signal) AN/ARC-200HF/SSB radios with Have Quick II Secure Speech Module and the Teledyne/E Systems Mk.XII Advanced IFF system (APX-109). T*he APG-66 radar was modified (designated APG-66A) to provide look down/shoot-down capability, enhanced small target detection, and CW (Continuous Wave) illumination for AIM-7 guidance.*
> 
> A 150,000 candlepower night identification spotlight was installed on the port side of the nose (below and in front of the cockpit) to aid in the identification of nighttime intruders. T*he aircraft were equipped to carry 600 (US) gallon (2,271 liter) external drop tanks, and to carry 6 BVR missiles such as the AIM-7 Sparrow or AIM-120 AMRAAM.*
> 
> http://www.f-16.net/f-16_versions_article14.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AAM Load
> On the F-16, AIM-120 AMRAAMs can be loaded on stations 1 and 9 (1 missile each, wingtip), 2 & 8 (1 missile each) and 3 & 7 (1 missile each).
> 
> http://www.f-16.net/f-16_armament_article3.html
> 
> Jordanian F16 Inv
> 
> Program
> 
> *Model* *Block* *Qty.* *Serials* *Delivered*
> *Peace Falcon I F-16A Block 15 ADF 12 220/231 1997-1998
> 
> F-16B Block 15 ADF 4 232/235 1997-1998 (with PAF 19 Sqn)
> Peace Falcon II F-16A Block 15 ADF 16 Aircraft 671/686 2003(Up for Sale??)
> 
> F-16B Block 15 ADF 1 A/c 670 2003 (Up for sale??)*
> *Peace Falcon III* F-16A Block 20MLU 12 140/150, 152 2008-2009
> F-16B Block 20MLU 4 136/139 2008-2009
> *Peace Falcon IV* F-16B Block 20MLU 6 133/138 2009
> *Peace Falcon V* F-16A Block 20MLU 6 153/158 2011
> F-16B Block 20MLU 3 159/161 2011
> *Peace Falcon VI* F-16A Block 20MLU 13 XXX 2016
> F-16B Block 20MLU 2 XXX 2016



This is under-utilisation of the F-16 in the ADF version.

The other versions of F-16 can also carry 6 AAM plus A2G weaponary.

can F-16 ADF carry A2G weaponary?

@The SC


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## The SC

Sarge said:


> This is under-utilisation of the F-16 in the ADF version.
> 
> The other versions of F-16 can also carry 6 AAM plus A2G weaponary.
> 
> can F-16 ADF carry A2G weaponary?
> 
> @The SC



These are Air Defence Fighters used for air interception missions, its role is to protect against bombers and cruise missiles.. So the answer is no, but if it can be MLUed to near block 52 than it will be possible.


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## Signalian

The SC said:


> These are Air Defence Fighters used for air interception missions, its role is to protect against bombers and cruise missiles.. So the answer is no, but if it can be MLUed to near block 52 than it will be possible.


Thank you for replying.

So just 6 hard points used, the rest could be occupied with drop tanks. 

Next, not more than 6 AAM carried, one would think that since A2G weaponary is NOT involved, vacant hard points mean extra 2+ AAM, but thats not possible. Most common configuration would be:

*F-16 TOTAL = 6 AAM*
2 X AIM-9
4 X AIM-120
Probably 1 or 3 drop tanks for loitering during a CAP.
I think a jamming pod can be carried on centre line, not sure if PAF has it for ADF version

But consider other options available on CAP and not much difference again

*JF-17 TOTAL = 6 AAM*
2 X PL-9
4 X PL-12
1 X drop tank or mid air refuel during CAP

*Mirage-III TOTAL = 4 AAM*
4 X Aim-9
1 X drop tank or mid air refuel during CAP

*F-7PG TOTAL = 4 AAM*
4 X Aim-9
1 X drop tank 

Even if PAF gets J-10, it cannot carry more than 6 AAM, J-31 can carry not more than 4 AAM internally. (correct me if im wrong). 

This means PAF doesnt have an aircraft that can carry more than 6 AAM unless Multiple Ejector Rack (MER) is used, but I have not seen AAM on MERs.

This is PAF using MER, correct me if im wrong, all A2G weaponry on MER of this F-16 A?





This is a SEAD equipped F-16 CG below, any A2A weaponry on MERs?





As for the role of F-16 ADF, it could have multiple roles:

1. Escorting strike package
2. CAP's
3. AWACS escort
4. Air Refueller escort during war
5. Interception

But the significant role that these F-16 ADF can perform now is sharing the A2A warfare burden of 5,9,11 squadrons which can now focus more on A2G roles and conserve air-frame life for their F-16's.


I had been asking @Quwa @Windjammer but couldnt find answers.


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## The SC

I think you have found the answer in your last paragraph..

Now, take a look on this:

The F-16 ADF carries the Westinghouse AN/APG-66(V)1 radar, which was modified to improve small target detection and to provide the continous wave illumination needed by the Sparrow missile. Standard air-to-air modes are look up, look down, search and track, track while scan, automatic tracking, and air combat search. The AIM-7 Sparrow missile can be carried only on the middle underwing pylon, and even then only with pylons equipped with RDRC. The ADF is the only American Fighting Falcon with Sparrow capability. Hughes AIM-120 AMRAAM missiles are usually carried on the outboard underwing pylons, and AIM-9 Sidewinder infrared homing missiles are typically carried on the wingtips. Although it is not typical practice, either Sidewinders or AMRAAMS can be carried at the wingtip points and on the outermost pair of underwing pylons. The innermost pair of underwing pylons are reserved for 360 US gallon droptanks, and the centerline hardpoint can carry a 300 US gallong external fuel tank. The internal M61A1 20-mm cannon with 511 rounds is retained.

http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_fighters/f16_3c.html
------------------------------------------------------------
Here is something that might be of interest:





*Boeing Touts New 16 Air-To-Air Missile Carrying F-15 Eagle Configurations*






*The annual Air Force Association conference will kick off outside of Washington next week, where Boeing is putting its latest and greatest combat aircraft developments on show for industry and Washington power brokers. This includes new F-15 configurations that allow the 43-year-old design to lug 16 air-to-air missiles into combat instead of the standard eight it carries today.*

*http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/boeings-touts-new-16-air-to-air-missile-carrying-f-15-e-1730258333http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/boeings-touts-new-16-air-to-air-missile-carrying-f-15-e-1730258333*

*



*


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## khanasifm

Adf or even simple block 5/10/15 were cappable of deploying agm65 missiles and other ground stores paf got it in 1980s which were before adf advent
Atlis laser pod and laser bomb were qualified on block 15 which is older then adf adf is just add on to previous block through ocu operator capability update

Of course it's needs update to take on sniper pod and other weapons such a s GPS and small diameter etc which in most case is software plus some hw upgrade


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## Windjammer

In recent months, three large similar Hangars seem to have been erected at Sargodha, Risalpur and Minawali.


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## fatman17

Windjammer said:


> In recent months, three large similar Hangars seem to have been erected at Sargodha, Risalpur and Minawali.



To park Erieye and Karakoram Eagle when on missions.

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## fatman17

PAF war game Tempest-II ends

Staff Reporter

Islamabad—A concluding session on culmination of PAF exercise Tempest-II was held at Nur Khan Auditorium Air Headquarters, Islamabad on Thursday.
General Rashad Mahmood, Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee was the chief guest at the occasion. Chief of the Army Staff, General Raheel Sharif, Chief of the Naval Staff, Admiral Zakaullah and Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force were also present at the session. Senior officers from tri-services also attended the concluding session.
While talking at the occasion, the Air Chief said that PAF, in synergy with sister services, has played an important role in the ongoing operation Zarb-e-Azb.
This operation has greatly contributed towards jointness and interoperability amongst the sister services and the coordination among them is better than ever.
The exercise has immensely contributed towards operational preparedness and our armed forces are at the highest level of operational readiness to take on any challenge, be it internal or external. CJCSC lauded the efforts of conducting this significant war game which will help in revolutionizing the latest war fighting concepts.
He further said that the exercise not only generated fruitful debates on strategy and planning but also proved to be an effective tool in identifying own strengths and challenges. The war game was based on the prevalent Concept of Operations of PAF and it helped in assessing the efficacy of Airpower in any future conflict.
This exercise would prove to be an important element of the PAF’s operational planning cycle and its outcome would assist PAF in campaign planning during war.


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## fatman17

Pakistan and China jointly produce JF-17B dual seat combat fighter aircraft

3 May 2016

Pakistan and China are jointly producing the JF-17B dual seat combat fighter aircraft to be inducted by the Pakistan Air Force (PAF).

Production of the multi-role combat aircraft was announced at an induction ceremony held at Chengdu Aerospace Corporation (CAC) Chengdu, China.

Developed jointly by the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) and the CAC, the aircraft can be used for aerial reconnaissance, ground attack and aircraft interception.

"Developed jointly by the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) and the CAC, the aircraft can be used for aerial reconnaissance, ground attack and aircraft interception."

The PAF will induct the twin-seater version by April next year for training and enhanced operational capability.

Commenting on the project, PAF air marshal Muhammad Iqbal said that the dual seat aircraft is of great value for PAF in enhancing not only training value but also the operational capability and the induction of dual seat JF-17B aircraft would also improve its market prospects in future.

Iqbal also thanked Chinese leadership for their continuous support in the design, development and manufacturing phases of the JF-17 development project.

The aircraft will undergo testing in September this year.

The JF-17 aircraft was primarily developed to replace the PAF's fleet of Dassault Mirage III/5 fighters, Nanchang A-5 bombers, and Chengdu F-7 interceptors.

The PAF's first JF-17 aircraft was inducted in February 2010.

As of December 2015, 49 JF-17 Thunder aircraft were in service with 50 additional airframes ordered, of which 17 have been delivered.

Image: Pakistan Air Force JF-17 Thunder. Photo: courtesy of Aldo Bidini.

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## fatman17

Anatolian Eagle 2016 | Turkey

In parallel with EFES 2016, Turkey also commenced its marquee fighter training exercise, Anatolian Eagle, on 31 May. A large-scale exercise, comparable in scope to Red Flag, Anatolian Eagle has two components: a national element involving only the Turkish military, and a multi-national portion including a number of countries with whom the Turkish maintains defence ties. Anatolian Eagle 2016 will involve participants from Saudi Arabia, Australia, Pakistan, Italy, Azerbaijan, and the Netherlands. For 2016, the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is sending six F-16s (from its No 11 “Arrows” squadron) and 90 personnel comprised of pilots, engineers and technicians.

Comment and Analysis

There are at least two kinds of multi-national exercises: routine and intensive programs meant for training and exposure, and political demonstrations. The former is the most interesting in that the participants, especially their operational-level personnel, have an opportunity to directly interact and learn from one another. It is through such exercises that organizations from different countries are able to gradually build professional relationships, which in turn can transform into long-lasting training programs and initiatives.

A good example is that of Turkey and Pakistan. Not only has Pakistan frequently participated in Anatolian Eagle (since being invited in 2004), but now, the Turkish Air Force and the Pakistan Air Force have managed to sign onto a formal training exchange program. Furthermore, the Turkish Air Force has even participated in exercises in Pakistan, such as Indus Viper and TUSAP Raiders. All things considered, there is no doubt that Pakistan is accruing valuable insight into the standards and procedures at play in modern air forces, especially those belonging to NATO.

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## fatman17

Air Force: Pakistan, Turkey sign MoU for training pilots

By APP

Published: June 18, 2015

PHOTO: Pakistan Embassy Ankara

TURKEY: 

Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force (PAF), Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman has signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) with Turkish Air Force at the opening ceremony of Multinational Military Flight Crew Training (MMFCT) Centre on Wednesday.

Both the air forces have agreed to exchange two pilots for training every year. This would enhance the bilateral relations at a grass root level.

According to PAF, the main purpose of Multinational Military Flight Crew Training Centre (MMFCT-C) is to provide comprehensive training solutions to Fighter Pilots of Allies and to develop flight training tactics and techniques in line with Nato operational requirements.

It would also hone the interoperability amongst allies and partners for future operations and exercises.

The air chief also visited the Headquarters of Turkish Air Force.

Published in The Express Tribune, June 18th, 2015.

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## fatman17

Crashed Pakistan Air Force UAV Appears to be Chinese Wing Loong

Posted on 20 June, 2016


Wreckage of the Pakistan Air Force UAV which crashed on Saturday during a sortie from Mainwali. It appears to be a Chinese Wing Loong, a type not previously known to be in PAF service.

AN UNMANNED air vehicle operated by the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) crashed on June 18 in an uninhabited location in the Head Pakka area of Mianwali district. It came down as a result of a technical malfunction after take-off from PAF Base Mianwali.

The crash site was about 4 miles (6km) from the air base. The UAV was said to be on a sortie to monitor areas of flooding in the region. Photographs of the wreckage show that it appears to be a Chinese Chengdu Wing Loong/Pterodactyl medium-altitude long-range UAV, a type not previously known to be in the PAF inventory. AFD-Dave Allport

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## fatman17

UAV/UCAV II

WD-1K Wing Loong


A WD-1K UCAV was preparing for the 2015 VJ Day Parade in Beijing. This medium altitude long endurance (MALE) UCAV similar to American MQ-1Predator has been developed by the 611 Institute/CAC/GAAC since 2005 known asWing Loong I/Pterosaur I. First flight took place in October 2007. It features a head bulge which houses a SATCOM antenna, which allows the UCAV to communicate with the ground control station via a satellite, a communication relay UAV, or direct signal transmission. An EO turret(Loong Eye?) housing FLIR/TV/laser range finder/laser designator is mounted under its nose for tracking and locking on ground targets in poor weather conditions. As the result the UCAV can not only direct the missiles launched by itself, but also guide the PGMs launched by other aircraft or by the ground force. It is powered by a 100hpROTAX 914 piston engine. The UCAV normally carries two KD-9 laser guided ATGMs as its primary weapon. It can also carry two PL-90 IR guided AAMs against slow moving aerial targets such as helicopters. In 2011 UAE was believed to have become the first foreign customer ofWing Loong I. Saudi Arabia is also believed to have acquired Wing Loong I in 2014, armed with BA-7 ATGMs. More Wing Loong Is were produced for new foreigncustomers. Two were reportedly delivered to Kazakhstan in March 2016. Pakistani AF is also believed to have been evaluatingWing Loong during mid-2016. A recent image taken during the SCO Peace Mission 2014 military exercise confirmed that the UCAV called WD-1K/GJ-1 has been in service with PLAAF Flight Test & Training Base as its first operational UCAV (S/N 76x2x). Some specifications: weight 1,100kg, max speed 280km/hr, range 4,000km, endurance 20hr, service ceiling 5,000m, weapon load 200kg.Recent news (September 2015) indicated that a bigger and more powerful UCAV called Wing Loong II is currently under development at the 611 Institute. Aprototype may have already flown. It is powered by a new turboprop engine (WJ-9? 456kW) and can carry up to 12 ATGMs.

- Last Updated 6/19/16

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## fatman17

Wing Loong

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## TOPGUN

Are we testing the Wing Long ? why else would it be in Pakistan .


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## Bratva

fatman17 said:


> Wing Loong



http://www.janes.com/article/61651/crashed-pakistani-uav-was-on-experimental-flight

Can you post this full article ?


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## fatman17

Bratva said:


> http://www.janes.com/article/61651/crashed-pakistani-uav-was-on-experimental-flight
> 
> Can you post this full article ?



Will try


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## fatman17

Killer Drone?

The recent crash of a UAV in Pakistan appears to confirm that Islamabad is mulling the purchase of new combat drones.

By Franz-Stefan Gady

June 22, 2016


After the June 18 crash of an unidentified unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) near the city of Mianwali in Punjab province, some evidence has emerged that the UAV is not one regularly flown by the Pakistan Air Force (PAF). That has led to speculations that the Pakistani military is mulling the purchase of additional Chinese combat drones.

According to IHS Jane’s Defense Weekly, a Pakistani defense official speaking on the condition of anonymity said that the unmanned aircraft was on an “experimental flight.” This could indicate that the Pakistani military was evaluating a new UAV type for service in the PAF. Furthermore, IHS Jane’s Defense Weeklyexplains:

No official comment has been made on either the type of UAV involved or the crash itself. However, the Pakistani official (…) indicated that the crashed UAV — which has the appearance of a Chinese Wing-Loong unmanned combat aerial vehicle — was not among those regularly flown by the Pakistan Air Force, suggesting it may have been a newer platform that was still being tested.

Pakistan considered procuring the Wing Loong UAV in the late 2000s; however, the PAF opted for the China Aerospace Science and Technology Corporation’s (CASC) CH-3A instead. Both the Wing Loong and CH-3A are medium altitude long-endurance (MALE) UAVs, capable of firing laser-guided air-to-surface missiles.

According to some media reports, Pakistan is also considering purchasing the CH-4, an upgraded variant of the CH-3A, offering longer endurance and a larger payload. The CH-4 “can carry a payload of up to 350 kilogram including Lan Jian 7 (Blue Arrow 7) laser-guided air-to-surface missiles, TG100 laser/INS/GPS-guided bombs, and the AR-1/HJ-10 anti-tank missile – the Chinese equivalent to the American-made Hellfire missile,” as I explained last year. It closelyresembles the U.S.-made General Atomics Aeronautical Systems’ MQ-9 Reaper drone.

In terms of size and payload, the Wing Loong UAV is comparable to the smaller General Atomics MQ-1 Predator. However, Chengdu Aircraft Corporation has been working on a larger second-generation Wing Loong II combat UAV, purportedly capable of carrying up to 12 air-to-surface missiles. According to some analysts, the Wing Loong UAV is equipped with a much weaker engine than either the Predator or Reaper and consequently has a more limited range and speed in comparison to U.S. models.

Pakistan’s indigenously-designed combat drone named Burraq, first inducted in November 2013, very much resembles the CH-3A, although it is unclear in what capacity China has supported Pakistan’s National Engineering and Scientific Commission (NESCOM) in the development of this new weapons platform. The Burraq UAV was for deployed in combat for the first time during counterinsurgency operations in the Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA) in September 2015.

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## fatman17

Super Mushshak trainer aircraft to be provided to Qatari Air Force 

Posted By: News Deskon: June 24, 2016


ISLAMABAD: (APP) Pakistan on Thursday achieved another landmark in the defence production sector, when Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) and Qatar Emiri Air Force signed an agreement for supply of Super Mushshak Aircraft to the brotherly nation.

The trainer aircraft supply contract signing ceremony was held at Doha (Qatar), where General Salem Hamid Al Nabet, Commander Air Academy Qatar and Air Vice Marshal Arshad Malik, Deputy Chairman PAC signed the papers representing their respective nations, PAF news release here stated.

PAF contingent comprising Super Mushshak aircraft with its air and ground crew had participated in the Qatar Air Show earlier this year.

Emir of Qatar Sheikh Tamim bin Hamad Al Thani, Prime Minister of Qatar Abdullah bin Nasser bin Khalifa Al Thani and the military high command had shown keen interest in the aircraft and expressed their desire to purchase this state of the art trainer inventory for their Air Force.

The negotiations commenced immediately afterwards and today they have been materialized with formally signing the supply deal.

This contract would not only open new avenues for export of aviation equipment to other countries but also help in generating handful revenue for the country.

The Aircraft is already in service with Saudi Arabia, Oman, Iran and South Africa. The deal comes in succession to another export deal of Super Mushshak Aircraft to Nigeria in early 2016.

The deal further strengthens PAC’s status as a world class aviation industry producing the supersonic JF-17 Thunder and Super Mushshak trainer aircraft.

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## ghazi52

Great news..............................


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## fatman17

Middle East North Africa

Contracts have been signed between Qatar and Pakistan,confirming the former’s purchase of the PAC Super Mushshakbasic trainer. The sale was concluded three months after Pakistan displayed the aircraft, along with the JF-17, at a demonstration at the Qatar Air Show. A Pakistan Air Force spokesperson commented that a number of other nations were also interested in Pakistani aircraft, however failed to mention anyone by name.


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## hassan1



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## fatman17

Air Platforms

Qatar orders Super Mushshak trainers

Farhan Bokhari, Islamabad - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

27 June 2016

Pakistan's Ministry of Defence Production (MODP) announced on 23 June that the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) had signed an agreement to sell an unspecified number of its Super Mushshak basic trainers to Qatar. A Ministry of Defence official told IHS Jane's that his understanding was that Qatar will buy ten trainers.

The Super Mushshak is an improved version of the Saab MFI-17 basic design that was acquired by PAC. It is in service with Saudi Arabia, Oman, Iran, and South Africa as well as Pakistan, and it has been ordered by Nigeria.

ANALYSIS

PAC officials are keen to export the JF-17 Thunder to the Middle East and one participated in Exercise 'Raad al-Shamal' that was held by Saudi Arabia and its allies in February-March.


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## Sulman Badshah

hassan1 said:


> View attachment 314213


Hurkus or KT1?


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## Windjammer

PAF contingent of Shaheen exercise enjoy a meal in a PLAAF Mess.

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## zeeshan shaani

Air Marshall Asad Abdur Rehman Lodhi has been appointed as the new Vice Chief of Air Staff on Sunday(Today). Earlier he was earlier serving as Deputy Chief of Air Staff. Asad Abdur Rehman Khan Lodhi was commissioned in GD (P) Branch of Pakistan Air Force in March, 1982. He is a qualified Flying Instructor and during his illustrious career, he has commanded a Fighter Squadron, an Operational Air Base and a Regional Air Command.

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## FalconsForPeace

*Asad Abdur Rehman Lodhi becomes Vice Chief of Air Staff*

*



*

Air Marshall Asad Abdur Rehman Lodhi has been appointed as the new Vice Chief of Air Staff on Sunday(Today). Earlier he was earlier serving as Deputy Chief of Air Staff.

Asad Abdur Rehman Khan Lodhi was commissioned in GD (P) Branch of Pakistan Air Force in March, 1982. He is a qualified Flying Instructor and during his illustrious career, he has commanded a Fighter Squadron, an Operational Air Base and a Regional Air Command. In his staff appointments, he has served as Director Strategic Operations, Assistant Chief of the Air Staff (Operation, Research and Development), Director General at Ministry of Defence Production and Director General Projects at Air Headquarters Islamabad. He has also served as Defence Attaché to Japan.

http://en.dailypakistan.com.pk/pakistan/asad-abdur-rehman-lodhi-becomes-vice-chief-of-air-staff/


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## barbarosa

Congratulate Sir. We pray to see PAF the strongest air force of the world under your command.


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## fatman17

CM-400AKG


This supersonic standoff missile was first on display at the 2012 Zhuhai Airshow as part of FC-1/JF-17's "complete" weapon package. Unlike most modern ASMs flying at the low altitude, the missile flies a rare high ballistic trajectory, powered by a solid rocket motor. It appears that CM-400AKGmay have evolved from the earlier SY-400 SRBM. Therefore the effectiveness of such attack profile is still unknown. Some specifications: weight 900kg, max range 240km, max speed Mach 5.5 (at diving stage?). It has INS during the mid-course and utilizes active radar/passive radar/IIR seeker with target-recognition capabilities at the terminal stage, which may improve its accuracy. The missile is claimed to be capable of terminal maneuver of some degree to avoid interception by SAMs. CM-400AKG is speculated to have been designed to attack fixed or "slow moving", high value ground targets. Up to two CM-400AKGs can be carried by an FC-1/JF-17. A small yellow dorsal antenna was installed probably to provide the datalink between the missile and the aircraft. It has yet to seeif CM-400AGK will enter the service with PAF. The latest image (July 2016) suggested that the program is still making progresswith JF-17 seen undergoing more weapon integration tests.
- Last Updated 7/10/16

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## fatman17

Terrorism & Insurgency
*Pakistan mulls purchasing used Jordanian F-16s*
*Farhan Bokhari, Islamabad* - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
15 June 2016



Pakistan is considering buying at least 16 used Lockheed Martin F-16 Block 30 Fighting Falcon fighters from Jordan following the collapse of a deal for the purchase of eight new F-16C/D Block 52s from the United States.

Pakistan's defence secretary, Lieutenant General Alam Khattak (retd), told members of the Senate's Standing Committees on Defence and Foreign Affairs on 13 June that the plan to buy F-16s from the US at a subsidised rate was a closed chapter. Instead, he said, "We are now going for a third party transfer of F-16s and have an offer from Jordan."

The statement comes after the US State Department told reporters on 3 May that Pakistan would have to "put forward national funds" to buy the fighter jets after members of the US Congress objected to using the Foreign Military Financing (FMF) programme to subsidise the deal.

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## volatile

Who is stopping Pakistan ,More talks less action just buy them unless some one will say these are not useful .In my view window is getting closer so Pak needs to get more birds as early as possible


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## Baloch Pakistani

Cornered Tiger said:


> Pakistan Air Force - Air Force Inventory Updates at the end of 2015.
> 
> *Fighter Squadrons*
> 
> 60 x F-7PG (Air Superiority & Close Air Support):-
> 
> No. 17 Squadron Tigers (Samungli - Quetta)
> 
> No. 20 Squadron Eagles (Rafiqui - Shorkot)
> 
> No. 23 Squadron Talons (Samungli - Quetta)
> 36 x F-7P (Point Defence Interceptors):-
> 
> No. 14 Squadron Tail Choppers (Minhas - Kamra)
> 
> No. 18 Squadron War Hawks (M.M.Alam - Mianwali) previously known as "Sharp Shooters"
> 18 x Mirage 5PA3 (Naval Strike):-
> 
> No. 08 Squadron Haiders (Masroor - Karachi)
> 18 x Mirage 3EP (Tactical Attack):-
> 
> No. 15 Squadron Cobras (Rafiqui - Shorkot)
> 14 x Mirage ROSE-III (Tactical Attack):-
> 
> No. 27 Squadron Zarrars (Rafiqui - Shorkot)
> 20 x Mirage ROSE-II (Tactical Attack):-
> 
> No. 25 Squadron Night Strike Eagles (Minhas - Kamra)
> 28 x Mirage ROSE-I (Multi Role):-
> 
> No. 07 Squadron Bandits (Masroor - Karachi)
> Combat Commander School - Sky Bolts
> 14 x Mirage 3DL/DF/EL (Tactical Attack & Operational Conversion Unit):-
> 
> No. 22 Squadron Ghazis (Masroor - Karachi)
> 18 x F-16 C/D Block 52+ (Multi Role):-
> 
> No. 5 Squadron Falcons (Shahbaz - Jacobabad)
> 58 x F-16 AM/BM Block 15 MLU (Multi Role):-
> 
> No. 09 Squadron Griffins (Mushaf - Sargodha)
> No. 11 Squadron Arrows (Mushaf - Sargodha)
> No. 19 Squadron Sherdils (Mushaf - Sargodha)
> 49 x JF-17 Block-I (Multi Role)
> 
> No. 02 Squadron Minhas (Masroor - Karachi)
> No. 26 Squadron Black Spiders (Peshawar) - 13 x Block-Is & 5 x Block-IIs
> Combat Commander School - Dashings
> 23 x JF-17 Block-II (Multi Role) - 7 produced in 2014 & 16 produced in 2015. (approx).
> 
> No. 16 Squadron Panthers (Peshawar)
> 
> *Special Squadrons*
> 
> No. 01 Squadron Rahbars (M.M.Alam - Mianwali): K-8P (Fighter Conversion Unit)
> No. 04 Squadron (Masroor - Karachi): ZDK-03 (AEW&CS)
> No. 06 Squadron Antelopes (Noor Khan - Chaklala): C-130, AN-26, Citation V, Harbin Y-12 (Transport)
> 
> No. 10 Squadron (Noor Khan - Chaklala): IL-78 Midas (Transport)
> 
> No. 12 Squadron Globe Trotters (Noor Khan - Chaklala): A-310, B-707, Phenom 100, Gulf Stream IV (Transport)
> 
> No. 13 Squadron (Minhas - Kamra): Saab-2000 Erieye, ZDK-03 (AEW&CS)
> No. 21 Squadron (Faisal - Karachi): C-130, CN-235 (Transport)
> No. 24 Squadron Blinders (Mushaf - Sargodha): DA-20, King Air-350 (EW/ELINT)
> *Other Squadrons*
> 
> No. 81 Squadron Kangaroos (Peshawar): Alouette 3, MiMi-171SH (SAR, Transport)
> No. 82 Squadron (Sargodha): Alouette 3 (SAR)
> No. 83 Squadron Dolphin (Karachi): Alouette 3, MiMi-171SH (SAR, Transport)
> No. 85 Squadron (Quetta): Alouette 3 (SAR)
> No. 86 Squadron Ababeel (Kamra): Alouette 3, MiMi-171SH (SAR, Transport)
> No. 87 Squadron (Mianwali): MiMi-171SH (Transport)
> *UAVs not included



So Mushaf airbase Sargodha is the best airbase in Pakistan and has the leading role?


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## Army research

Baloch Pakistani said:


> So Mushaf airbase Sargodha is the best airbase in Pakistan and has the leading role?


Yes sir

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## khanasifm

?


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## Army research

Army research said:


> Yes sir


Jacocabad and badaber(Peshawar )


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## khanasifm

badaber(Peshawar )

2 separate thing, one is flying base the other an air force facility near pesh


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## syed_yusuf

Baloch Pakistani said:


> So Mushaf airbase Sargodha is the best airbase in Pakistan and has the leading role?



We have 4 major bases
1- Peshawar
2 - Sargodha
3 - Jacobad
4 - Karachi (masroor)

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## fatman17

YJ-83K


YJ-83K is a turbojet powered AShM based on the YJ-83 SSM. YJ-83K (H/AKJ83) features a frequency agile radar seeker and has a sea-skimming capability. It also features datalink and has a range of 180km. Its cruising altitude is 20-30m (5-7m during terminal phase), cruising speed is 0.9M. It weights 715kg and carries a 165kg warhead. It was rumored that the missile could reach supersonic speed at the terminal stage but this turned out to be false. YJ-83K is being carried by the naval JH-7/JH-7A (up to 4), H-6G (up to 4). It is also expected to be carried by J-10AH and the new J-15 (up to 2) in service with PLAN. A similar export version called C-802A was also developed and is being carried by PAF JF-17. Iran reverse-engineered C-802 as Noor which can be carried by its F-4. C-802A can also be carried by the new FC-31 still in development.

- Last Updated 7/19/16

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## fatman17

*Middle East North Africa*

Pakistan is looking to secure second-hand F-16 fighters



from both Jordan and European nations via the Excess Defense Articles (EDA) route. The renewed searching comes as the deal to secure the planes from the US collapsed after members of Congress opposed to the fighters



being procured under the Foreign Military Financing (FMF) program to subsidize the deal. Instead, Islamabad is now looking for a Third Party Transfer of the F-16s, if someone is willing.


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## Zarvan

In yesterday National Security meeting which was attended by heads of Armed Forces except for Air Chief. It was some other officer from PAF who was attending the meeting so where is he ?


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## Ahmed95

Zarvan said:


> In yesterday National Security meeting which was attended by heads of Armed Forces except for Air Chief. It was some other officer from PAF who was attending the meeting so where is he ?



He is in Russia on an official visit.


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## Zarvan

Ahmed95 said:


> He is in Russia on an official visit.


@Arsalan Sir I told you before and @Horus @Windjammer @Sulman Badshah @Tipu7 This is one of most important visits ever


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## Tipu7

Zarvan said:


> @Arsalan Sir I told you before and @Horus @Windjammer @Sulman Badshah @Tipu7 This is one of most important visits ever



40 TOP NOTCH AIR CRAFTS FROM _WEST_ / *EAST* 

We were expecting this to happen since He was ''specially'' called for this visit by a High End personality in Russia ..........

We should start packing crates for exporting Bernol to our neighbor as real soon they will need it in large quantities.

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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> @Arsalan Sir I told you before and @Horus @Windjammer @Sulman Badshah @Tipu7 This is one of most important visits ever


Sir i told you a few things as well. 
It is just like you started talking about Pakistan army getting Altay tanks and the reason you gave was a picture of Raheel Sharif standing in front of Altay tank. 
I may be wrong but i did gave you the reasons for what i am saying. 
I have discussed in details the situation and wont be going into those details here again for the reasons also explained to you.


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## Zarvan

Tipu7 said:


> 40 TOP NOTCH AIR CRAFTS FROM _WEST_ / *EAST*
> 
> We were expecting this to happen since He was ''specially'' called for this visit by a High End personality in Russia ..........
> 
> We should start packing crates for exporting Bernol to our neighbor as real soon they will need it in large quantities.


Let's hope for the best. He is not the only one in Russia few others are also there


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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> @Arsalan Sir I told you before and @Horus @Windjammer @Sulman Badshah @Tipu7 This is one of most important visits ever


Thought this might interest you:

PAF Chief holds talks with Russian counterpart
_July 23, 2016, 5:22 pm_
ISLAMABAD: Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force visited Air Base and aviation industry set ups in Moscow, Russia and observed modern fighter jet and other important military hardware. During his visit to the Base CAS was briefed about the role and task of Russian Air Force and was shown various aircraft on its inventory. Air Chief appreciated professionalism and operational capabilities of Russian Air Force. He also emphasized upon the importance of mutual training and conduct of Operational Exercises between the two Air Forces to benefit from each other experiences. Later he met aviation industry hierarchy ofRussia for exploring multiple options and enhancing cooperation in technical fields. The Air Chief highlighted existing opportunities of cooperation between two aviation industries. He showed keen interest to enhance mutual technical cooperation, says a message received here Saturday.

Air Chief Marshal also called on Colonel General Victor Bondarev, Commander-in-Chief Russian Federation Aerospace Force. Both the dignitaries remained together for some time and discussed matters of professional and mutual interest. During the meeting both the commanders agreed for increasing cooperation between both air forces in particular and Aviation industry in general, and boosting aviation technology jointly. Both Air Chiefs showed interest in Bi-lateral operational exercises to benefit from each other experience.

The Air Chief highlighted the contributions of Pakistan Armed Forces and particularly PAF’s role in operation Zarb-e-Azb. Colonel General Victor Bondarev appreciated high standards of professionalism being set by Pakistan Air Force and highlighted the need of learning from each other’s experience.

Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman, Chief of the Air staff, Pakistan Air Force is on an official visit to Russian Federation on the special invitation of Russian Federation Aerospace Force.

http://nation.com.pk/national/23-Jul-2016/paf-chief-holds-talks-with-russian-counterpart

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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> Thought this might interest you:
> 
> PAF Chief holds talks with Russian counterpart
> _July 23, 2016, 5:22 pm_
> ISLAMABAD: Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force visited Air Base and aviation industry set ups in Moscow, Russia and observed modern fighter jet and other important military hardware. During his visit to the Base CAS was briefed about the role and task of Russian Air Force and was shown various aircraft on its inventory. Air Chief appreciated professionalism and operational capabilities of Russian Air Force. He also emphasized upon the importance of mutual training and conduct of Operational Exercises between the two Air Forces to benefit from each other experiences. Later he met aviation industry hierarchy ofRussia for exploring multiple options and enhancing cooperation in technical fields. The Air Chief highlighted existing opportunities of cooperation between two aviation industries. He showed keen interest to enhance mutual technical cooperation, says a message received here Saturday.
> 
> Air Chief Marshal also called on Colonel General Victor Bondarev, Commander-in-Chief Russian Federation Aerospace Force. Both the dignitaries remained together for some time and discussed matters of professional and mutual interest. During the meeting both the commanders agreed for increasing cooperation between both air forces in particular and Aviation industry in general, and boosting aviation technology jointly. Both Air Chiefs showed interest in Bi-lateral operational exercises to benefit from each other experience.
> 
> The Air Chief highlighted the contributions of Pakistan Armed Forces and particularly PAF’s role in operation Zarb-e-Azb. Colonel General Victor Bondarev appreciated high standards of professionalism being set by Pakistan Air Force and highlighted the need of learning from each other’s experience.
> 
> Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman, Chief of the Air staff, Pakistan Air Force is on an official visit to Russian Federation on the special invitation of Russian Federation Aerospace Force.
> 
> http://nation.com.pk/national/23-Jul-2016/paf-chief-holds-talks-with-russian-counterpart


Nothing will be made official until deal is finalized by the way most probably he is not alone in Russia. Some other people are also there


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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> Nothing will be made official until deal is finalized by the way most probably he is not alone in Russia. Some other people are also there


They are there to CONVINCE the Russians to reconsider there latest stance. I hope it is not too little too late!! 
What is required is a nice government visit to Russia where we give diplomacy one more try. Sad that this is not what we are doing and criminal that it have all come to this.


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## Windjammer

An American free lance, Cynthia Dawn Ritchie, visits PAF academy Risalpur to chat with female pilots and staff.












Female ATC Officer

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## fatman17

Zarvan said:


> @Arsalan Sir I told you before and @Horus @Windjammer @Sulman Badshah @Tipu7 This is one of most important visits ever



Just a hello hello visit

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## Arsalan

fatman17 said:


> Just a hello hello visit


Quite true sir. And frankly, that in itself is quite significant as far as i am concerned. The head of our air force visiting and meeting top officials of a country that was not considered a friend not so long ago. Indicates the ship in geopolitical situation and is a good move/approach keeping in view the most probable future alliances. A visit do not needs Su35 deal confirmed to be a significant. There is a lot more the a countries strength than those fancy toys for our armed forces. I hope people will start to understand this.


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## Quwa

Even though it was a 'hello hello visit', ACM Aman didn't waste his time there - he went and basically drove the PAF's interests as best as he possibly could.


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## fatman17

Even if the Russians offer us a weapons system, the biggest issue with Russia is its snail paced supply chain. It is notoriously poor.


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## Quwa

fatman17 said:


> Even if the Russians offer us a weapons system, the biggest issue with Russia is its snail paced supply chain. It is notoriously poor.


Depends on the product. For the Su-35, UAC has slotted export aircraft blocks to be produced in parallel with VVS fighters.


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## fatman17

20 Jul 2016, 17:51

FARNBOROUGH—Although Lockheed Martin is facing a gap in F-16 production starting next year, top officials say the company is keeping the line warm in anticipation of new international orders of the lightweight fighter before too long.
After delivering more than 4,500 F-16s to 28 customers in almost 140 different configurations, Lockheed is facing a possible shutdown of the Fort Worth production line after deliveries to Iraq are completed in 2017. But Orlando Carvalho, Lockheed’s executive vice president for aeronautics, is confident the F-16 production gap will be temporary.
---
Lockheed hopes the next batch of F-16 orders will come from Bahrain, which is interested in upgrading its existing fleet of legacy F-16s and potentially buying a new batch of F-16Vs. The deal has recently been stalled amid negotiations for the U.S.’s new aid package to Israel, but Lockheed officials hope to finalize the contract soon. Colombia is also looking to buy F-16s, Carvalho said.

Meanwhile, Pakistan was considering buying eight F-16C/D Block 52 fighters, to be delivered in 2019, but the nearly $700 million deal fell apart over financing issues and opposition from Congress. The Pakistani government was required to provide a Letter of Acceptance for purchase of the jets by the end of May, but the document was never issued. Lockheed is no longer working on the Pakistan deal, Carvalho said.

Despite the Pakistan loss, Lockheed is confident international orders for the F-16 will continue to flow in, CEO Marillyn Hewson said in a recent interview. “We do have interest in the F-16 from Bahrain, Indonesia, Colombia, India and others, so we’re trying to sell the aircraft,” Hewson said. “Our job is just to get the next tranche sold so we can get that line back up after it goes cold. We have gone to low production levels in the past, and we’re very confident that we can bring it back.”

---

The future of the F-16 line arguably lies with the F-16V upgrade, which takes lessons learned from fifth-generation aircraft like Lockheed’s F-35 and F-22 and rolls them back into the fourth-generation F-16. The heart and soul of the F-16V is Northrop Grumman’s APG-83 scalable, agile-beam active AESA radar, which allows the pilot to collect significantly more data than the legacy mechanically-scanned array radar, Howard said.

The new radar improves detection range, allows for up to 20 simultaneous target tracks, and includes a high-resolution synthetic aperture capability that enables all-environment precision strike. It also includes advanced electronic protections, and allows the pilot to combine the air-to-air and air-to-surface modes into a single display.

The F-16V also adds a center pedestal display upgrade, integrating a 6-in.-by-8-in., high-resolution, full-color screen in the center of the cockpit so the pilot can take advantage of the vast amounts of data coming in from the radar. In addition, the upgrade includes a new mission computer, which provides two times the memory and 10 times the computing space of the legacy mission computer.

The new configuration will also include an auto ground-collision avoidance system, a joint helmet-mounted cuing system, the latest weapons and a Lockheed Martin sniper pod with an advanced electro-optical camera, Link 16 for better communications with other aircraft, and conformal fuel tanks to extend the jet’s range.

“All of that is designed to take the information and the technology that we’ve learned out of fielding F-35s and F-22s and roll that information back into the F-16 through the avionics infrastructure, because today’s modern warfare ... in many ways it’s about information into the cockpit,” Howard said. “That’s what we’ve learned through F-22 and F-35 is how do you get the maximum amount of data into the cockpit so the pilot can then be thinking tactically and can then be making tactical

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## Sulman Badshah



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## fatman17

Military Capabilities

Turkey finalising deal for Pakistan's Super Mushshak

Jon Grevatt, Bangkok - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

26 July 2016

Turkey is in the final stages of signing a procurement deal for the Super Mushshak basic trainer, built by the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC). Source: PAC

Pakistan is in the final stages of securing a deal to export its MFI-17 Super Mushshak military training aircraft to Turkey, the Pakistan Ministry of Defence Production (MoDP) has announced.

In a statement issued on 22 July, the MoDP said the pending contract to export the aircraft, which is produced by state-owned Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), will be one of several defence industry collaboration projects between the two countries.

The MoDP said, "Both [Pakistan and Turkey] are going to finalise [a] deal for [the] Super Mushshak. This deal is in [its] last stages of finalisation and is going to be signed very soon."

It added, "Turkey is going to buy quite [a] big number of Super Mushshak [aircraft] from Pakistan. This deal will strengthen ties between two brotherly countries and will result in huge [amount of] foreign exchange for Pakistan."

The Super Mushshak is a PAC licence-built version of the Saab MFI-17 Supporter aircraft. In addition to the Pakistan military, the aircraft has previously been acquired by air forces including Iran, Iraq, Oman and Saudi Arabia. The aircraft is also on order with Nigeria.

IHS Jane's has previously reported that the PAC was one of several companies bidding for a programme to supply Turkey with up to 52 basic trainer aircraft, with the Turkish Undersecretariat for Defence Industries (SSM) issuing a request for proposals (RfP) in October 2013.

Details about any potential industry collaboration on the programme have not been released, although the MoDP indicated that some workshare is included, which is likely to be undertaken between PAC and Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI).

In addition to the expected Super Mushshak sale, the MoDP said that in August state-owned naval shipbuilder Karachi Shipyard and Engineering Works (KSEW) will hand over to the Pakistan Navy (PN) a fleet tanker that was built in collaboration with Turkish technology and systems engineering house Savunma Teknolojileri Mühendislik ve Ticaret (STM).

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## Hadiqa Shani

thanks for the info


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## Signalian

Curious why isnt PAF inclined on making a new aircraft after JF-17, a medium and stealthy aircraft.


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## niaz

Sarge said:


> Curious why isnt PAF inclined on making a new aircraft after JF-17, a medium and stealthy aircraft.



Hon Sir, Why do you think it is so?

Fact being that without the help from China, JF-17 would not be there? Most of the development work on FC-1 (Chinese designation) was done by Chengdu Aircraft Industries. Understand that Mikoyan design bureau also helped out a little. Costs were however shared equally by Pakistan & China.

Design of any aircraft ‘ab initio’ is a very lengthy & expensive process and unless Chinese or some other country with strong aviation base helps out, no new fighter aircraft would be designed or produced at the Kamra Complex.


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## volatile

I have heard that PAF from some one (Not a reliable source) that PAF is working on some thing big behind closed doors and lip tight silence ,New Generation aircraft which exceeds F16 and are match for 5th Gen .Reason for tight lip is many countries will ask for exports and it draws unwanted attentions . I know this is mere speculation but wanted to ask if such projects /Skunk work exists in PAF ?


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## Signalian

niaz said:


> Hon Sir, Why do you think it is so?
> 
> Fact being that without the help from China, JF-17 would not be there? Most of the development work on FC-1 (Chinese designation) was done by Chengdu Aircraft Industries. Understand that Mikoyan design bureau also helped out a little. Costs were however shared equally by Pakistan & China.
> 
> Design of any aircraft ‘ab initio’ is a very lengthy & expensive process and unless Chinese or some other country with strong aviation base helps out, no new fighter aircraft would be designed or produced at the Kamra Complex.



No shame in taking assistance of any level, be it China or France etc. Light aircraft is being produced, attention should be diverted now towards medium and stealth. is there any news of any such project in pipeline ?


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## ZedZeeshan

volatile said:


> I have heard that PAF from some one (Not a reliable source) that PAF is working on some thing big behind closed doors and lip tight silence ,New Generation aircraft which exceeds F16 and are match for 5th Gen .Reason for tight lip is many countries will ask for exports and it draws unwanted attentions . I know this is mere speculation but wanted to ask if such projects /Skunk work exists in PAF ?


I also use to do something big behind closed door but when i was about to achieve that big thing i got Discharge...


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## volatile

ZedZeeshan said:


> I also use to do something big behind closed door but when i was about to achieve that big thing i got Discharge...


Be serious dude after all source was right about few things related to Russia (Mi helicopter and overhauling facility) on the fun part behind door to ami abba hey pukertye hein

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## ZedZeeshan

volatile said:


> I have heard that PAF from some one (Not a reliable source) that PAF is working on some thing big behind closed doors and lip tight silence ,New Generation aircraft which exceeds F16 and are match for 5th Gen .Reason for tight lip is many countries will ask for exports and it draws unwanted attentions . I know this is mere speculation but wanted to ask if such projects /Skunk work exists in PAF ?


My friend if such project exist then source cannot be unreliable..and if the source is reliable then he will not say a word about it...its just a speculation..yes PAF has shown their intention to build next generation jet but will take some years for things to really show up...


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## volatile

ZedZeeshan said:


> My friend if such project exist then source cannot be unreliable..and if the source is reliable then he will not say a word about it...its just a speculation..yes PAF has shown their intention to build next generation jet but will take some years for things to really show up...


All air force/countries have Skunk projects so sit tight and see what comes out ,I have mentioned earlier it could me nothing but source was 50% right in some of its last predictions


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## The Eagle

*Israel air force to participate in US drill alongside Pakistani, UAE Jets*


*03-Aug-16


NEW YORK: The Israel Air Force is set to take part in a large-scale aerial exercise in the United States later this month. According to foreign media reports, teams from the Pakistani and United Arab Emirates air forces will also be taking part in the Red Flag air-to-air combat exercise in Nevada.

http://dailytimes.com.pk/pakistan/0...pate-in-us-drill-alongside-pakistani-uae-jets
*


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## ghazi52

Memorable photo of “The Royal Air Force” that taken in 1940’s. 

Four Future Air Force Chiefs in the Royal Air Forces of Pakistan and India. Seen in this picture are Air Chief Marshal Mehra Indian CAS from 1973 to 1976, Air Marshal Asghar Khan, Air Marshal Nur Khan and Air Marshal Zafar Chaudhry.

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## fatman17

Pakistan, UAE in US Air Force drillIAF pilots will take part in Red Flag exercise later this month in the Nevada desert to hone skills and make connections

By JUDAH ARI GROSS
August 3, 2016, 2:45 pm 13

Two Israel Air Force F-16 fighter jets. (Tsahi Ben-Ami/Flash90)

Israeli aircraft will fly alongside Pakistani and United Arab Emirates planes in the United States Air Force’s Red Flag exercise in the Nevada desert later this month.

Red Flag is considered the US military’s “premier air-to-air combat training exercise,” in which participating countries are divided into two teams and simulate dog fights to improve both their aviation skills and their military’s international connections, according to the US Air Force.

Last year, Israeli pilots took part in the Red Flag exercise for the first time in six years. During the aerial simulation, Israeli Air Force planes flew with — and reportedly refueled — Jordanian fighter jets.

In 2016, there will be four Red Flag exercises at the Nellis Air Force Base in Nevada. The first ran from January to February, the second from February to March and the third in July, while the final exercise will be conducted August 15-26, according to the US Air Force.

Illustrative photo of two F-16 Royal Jordanian Air Force jets (photo credit: CC BY-SA 3.0, by Caycee Cook, US Air Force, Wikimedia Commons)

Israel will take part in the August exercise, sending both fighter jets and cargo planes to Nellis Air Force Base, an IDF spokesperson said.

Those planes will apparently be joined by two Muslim countries, according to the US Air Force.

“For the second and fourth Red Flag, we will be including foreign players which include the United Kingdom, Australia, Turkey, Italy, Pakistan, United Arab Emirates, and Spain,” Col. Jeffrey Weed, a Combat Training Squadron commander in the US Air Force,announced after the 2015 Red Flag exercise.

The Aviationist, a website dedicated to aviation news and analysis, reported that Pakistani F16 fighter jets were seen en route to the Nevada desert, refueling at the US Air Force Lajes Field base in the Azores, Portugal.

The Israeli military would not officially comment on the presence of Pakistani and United Arab Emirates pilots at the Red Flag exercise, other than to say that the drill was being run by the Americans and Israel sees itself as a “guest” of the country.

However, earlier this year a senior IAF official stressed that, in addition to their benefits for training, international military exercises can be seen as a form of “roundabout” diplomatic strategy.

“Flying outside of Israel is very different from flying out of Ramat David,” the official told The Times of Israel, referring to an air base in northern Israel.

“You don’t know the area, you’re speaking in a different language. It lets you put a mirror up to yourself, and you learn a lot from that,” he said.

And there are other benefits to training with foreign armies, he added.

Israeli and foreign fighter jets fly in formation over the Negev Desert during the ‘Blue Flag’ exercise at Ovda Airfield near Eilat on October 21, 2015. (Israeli Air Force)

“[International exercises] are not just military, but strategic in nature,” the officer said. “And the strategic benefits are not always direct; they can also be roundabout.”

While they are not considered “enemy nations,” Israel does not have formal ties with Pakistan and the United Arab Emirates.

Though Pakistan has indicated it would be prepared to formalize its relationship with the Jewish state once there is a peace agreement with the Palestinians, ties between the two countries are often complicated.

There have been reports of covert contacts between Israeli and Pakistani officials, including a WikiLeaks document that indicated that a high-ranking official in the Pakistani army met directly with the Israeli Mossad.

Pakistan’s Prime Minister Muhammad Nawaz Sharif addresses the 70th Session of the United Nations General Assembly at the UN in New York, September 30, 2015. (AFP/JEWEL SAMAD)

Publicly, however, the two nations have little to do with one another. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu reportedly canceled a dinner reservation at a New York restaurant to avoid eating at the same time as Pakistan’s Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif.

Though there are still no formal ties with the United Arab Emirates, there has recently been a thaw in Israel’s relationship with the Gulf state. In November, Foreign Ministry Director-General Dore Gold visited Bahrain in order to open its first diplomatic mission in Abu Dhabi, which is part of the United Arab Emirates.

READ MORE ON: IAF Israeli Air Force, Red Flag drill, US Air Force, Nevada, Pakistan, UAE United Arab Emirates, Israel-Pakistan relations


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## fatman17

Sarge said:


> Curious why isnt PAF inclined on making a new aircraft after JF-17, a medium and stealthy aircraft.



Depends on its needs


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## The Eagle

*PAF offers sale of JF-17, Super Mushshak to Kuwait Air Force*

ISLAMABAD, Aug 4 (APP): Chief of the Air Staff (CAS), Air Chief Marshal Suhail Aman on Thursday met his Kuwaiti counterpart and offered sale of indigenously developed JF-17 and Super Mushshak aircraft besides providing training to pilots and expertise to technicians.

CAS is undertaking four-day official visit to Kuwait, a press release of PAF here stated.

The Air Chief called on Major General Abdullah Yaqoob Al-Fodri, Commander of Kuwait Air Force and highlighted the success story of JF-17 programme. He offered the sale of indigenously produced JF-17 Thunder and Super Mushshak aircraft to Kuwait Air Force.

He updated his counterpart about the flying training being undertaken by Kuwaiti Air Force pilots at PAF Academy Risalpur and offered assistance in establishment of training facilities for officers and technicians of Kuwait Air Force.

http://www.app.com.pk/paf-offers-sale-of-jf-17-super-mushshak-to-kuwait-air-force/


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## Rocky rock

why Pakistan always just offer Super Mushak but no K-8 which is more advance Trainer jet with Turbo jet Engine?


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## The Eagle

Rocky rock said:


> why Pakistan always just offer Super Mushak but no K-8 which is more advance Trainer jet with Turbo jet Engine?



Super Mushak is a basic trainer and K-8 is intermediate trainer so it depends upon the requirement of the customer in the category, offered.


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## Rocky rock

The Eagle said:


> Super Mushak is a basic trainer and K-8 is intermediate trainer so it depends upon the requirement of the customer in the category, offered.



i know that. so here one more question raise why do turkey buying super Mushak from Pakistan while Turkey is making much better trainer itself "Hurkus" on one side turkey is giving Pakistan T-37 and on other side they are buying mushaq from Pakistan?


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## The Eagle

Rocky rock said:


> i know that. so here one more question raise why do turkey buying super Mushak from Pakistan while Turkey is making much better trainer itself "Hurkus" on one side turkey is giving Pakistan T-37 and on other side they are buying mushaq from Pakistan?



There was announcement by Turkey for acquiring of Basic Trainer in 2013 and almost 9 competitors participated whereby Pakistan secured the deal hence these deliveries. Again, it is a matter of their need/requirement and Hurkus was in serial production while there was a requirement of replacing the ageing fleet. 

Use search option with keywords, you will find almost everything around, so far shared in public interest.


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## fatman17

If turkey wants to buy the mushshak why should we question it.

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## fatman17

Mushshak is basic while hurkus is primary trainer.


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## fatman17

Or something like that


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## HRK

Turkey is buying it in screener category & will replace old SF-260 Primary Trainers .... 

https://defence.pk/threads/pac-is-likely-to-compete-for-turkish-basic-trainers.289669/


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## Blue Marlin

fatman17 said:


> Mushshak is basic while hurkus is primary trainer.


your getting the hurkus?


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## HRK

Blue Marlin said:


> your getting the hurkus?


no such news .... its not barter deal .... we are talking about ...


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## Blue Marlin

HRK said:


> no such news .... its not barter deal .... we are talking about ...


ok. any news on a potentail procurement ?


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## HRK

Blue Marlin said:


> ok. any news on a potentail procurement ?



other then planed number of JF-17 reports are indicating procurement of some more DREAMS & WISHLIST ....

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## The Eagle

Chief of Air Staff of Pakistan Air Force Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman arrived in Sri Lanka today on a two day official visit on the invitation of the Commander of the Sri Lanka Air Force Air Marshal G.P Bulattsinghala.

During his stay, Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman will call on President Maithripala Sirisena, Prime Minister Ranil Wickrasinghe and meet the top military leadership of the country including Secretary Defence and the Services Chiefs.

Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman will also hold discussions on matters of professional interests with his Sri Lankan counterpart, Air Marshal G.P Bulattsinghala.

The Pakistan High Commission in Sri Lanka said that the visit of Pakistan’s Air Chief underscores the historic ties and friendly cooperation between the two countries. The visit will provide both sides an opportunity to review ongoing cooperation and collaboration, and to discuss ways and means to enhance continued cooperation between the two countries.

http://colombogazette.com/2016/08/07/pakistan-air-force-chief-sohail-aman-in-sri-lanka/


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## ghazi52

Air Chief Marshal Jamal A. Khan ; The first Pakistani fighter pilot to fly the F-16.

Jamal A. Khan was born to a Bangash Pashtoon family of Qaim-Gunj in the state of UP. He was a high-profile military figure and the four-star air officer serving as the eleventh Chief of Air Staff of Pakistan Air Force from March 6, 1985 until March 9, 1988. Commissioned in the air force in 1953, Khan graduated from the Air Force Academy and became a fighter pilot in the PAF. His air force career saw the actions in 1965 war and the 1971 war with India, eventually becoming the senior staff officer. Khan was the first PAF fighter pilot to have operate and fly the supersonic fighter, F-16 Fighting Falcon

Jamal Ahmad Khan was born in 1934 and commissioned as a fighter pilot on 11 June 1953 in the 13th GD(P) Course. He was selected to join the first PAF jet squadron of Supermarine Attackers. He served in fighter squadrons for six years before becoming instructor of the prestigious Flight Leaders' School. Subsequently he commanded No. 9 Squadron (F-104s) from 1962 to 1965. He also commanded No. 33 Wing for two years. During the 1965 war, he flew thirty operational missions and was awarded Sitara-e-Jurat for his courage and aggressive leadership in the air. During the 1971 war, he held senior staff appointment at the Command Operations Center (COC).

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## ZedZeeshan

ghazi52 said:


> Air Chief Marshal Jamal A. Khan ; The first Pakistani fighter pilot to fly the F-16.
> 
> Jamal A. Khan was born to a Bangash Pashtoon family of Qaim-Gunj in the state of UP. He was a high-profile military figure and the four-star air officer serving as the eleventh Chief of Air Staff of Pakistan Air Force from March 6, 1985 until March 9, 1988. Commissioned in the air force in 1953, Khan graduated from the Air Force Academy and became a fighter pilot in the PAF. His air force career saw the actions in 1965 war and the 1971 war with India, eventually becoming the senior staff officer. Khan was the first PAF fighter pilot to have operate and fly the supersonic fighter, F-16 Fighting Falcon
> 
> Jamal Ahmad Khan was born in 1934 and commissioned as a fighter pilot on 11 June 1953 in the 13th GD(P) Course. He was selected to join the first PAF jet squadron of Supermarine Attackers. He served in fighter squadrons for six years before becoming instructor of the prestigious Flight Leaders' School. Subsequently he commanded No. 9 Squadron (F-104s) from 1962 to 1965. He also commanded No. 33 Wing for two years. During the 1965 war, he flew thirty operational missions and was awarded Sitara-e-Jurat for his courage and aggressive leadership in the air. During the 1971 war, he held senior staff appointment at the Command Operations Center (COC).


He is Good Looking and really Handsome..


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## Shji

*Asslam u alaikum members 
I have applied for NON GD combat support course in IT and test will be on 19 August 
I want to know that which subjects are include in Intelligence test 
And is it easy or tough
Please guide me 
Profound Regards ☺*


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## fatman17

Will Kuwait Purchase Pakistan’s New Fighter Jet?

Pakistan has offered the JF-17 fighter jet and Super Mushshak trainer aircraft to the Kuwait Air Force.

By Franz-Stefan Gady
August 08, 2016


The chief of air staff of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF), Air Chief Marshall Sohail Aman, offered the possible sale of Pakistan Aeronautical Complex/Chengdu Aerospace Corporation (PAC/CAC) JF-17 Thunder fighter jets and PAC Super Mushshak trainer aircraft to his Kuwaiti counterpart, Major General Abdullah Yaqoob Al-Fodri, during a four day visit to Kuwait last week.

Up until now, Pakistan has failed to secure a large export contract for its first domestically developed and produced combat aircraft. Despite good military-to-military relations between Pakistan and Kuwait—among other things, Kuwaiti pilots train in Pakistan—prospects for a sale are slim given that Kuwait recently ordered 28 Eurofighter Typhoons fighter jets for an estimated $9 billion.

Pakistan, however, could still succeed in pitching the JF-17B two-seat trainer variant to Kuwait for lead-in-fighter training. As I reported previously (See: “Two-Seat Variant of China-Pakistan JF-17 Fighter Jet to Fly in 2016”), Islamabad is expecting the maiden flight of the two-seat JF-17B variant to take place by the end of this year. The PAF plans to officially induct the first JF-17B lead-in-fighter trainer (LIFT) aircraft in April 2017.

Pakistan produced a total number of 16 JF-17 Thunder aircraft in 2015 and intends to increase production to 24 fighter aircraft in 2016. Pakistan produces 58 percent of the airframe and China 42 percent. The JF-17 is intended to replace the PAF’s fleet of Dassault Mirage III/5 fighter jets by 2o20. Overall, there are 65 JF-17 aircraft currently in service with the PAF.

“The JF-17 is a lightweight, single-engine, multirole combat aircraft, powered by a Russian-designed but Chinese-built Klimov RD-93 (RD-33 derivative) turbofan, capable of reaching a top speed of Mach 1.6. The fighter purportedly has an operational range of around 1,200 kilometers (745 miles),” I noted previously.

According to IHS Jane’s Defense Weekly, the JF-17 has “seven underwing/fuselage hardpoints, and is equipped with an internal GSh-23-2 twin-barrel cannon. Weapon options include up to four PL-5, -7, -8 or -9 short-range air-to-air missiles (AAMs) or four PL-12/SD-10B medium-range AAMs; two C-802A anti-ship missiles; two anti-radiation missiles; five 500 kg bombs; twin launchers for up to eight 250 kg, MK-20, GBU-12 or anti-runway bombs; single 1,000 kg bomb or GBU-10; or up to three mission pods.”

In comparison to the JF-17, Pakistan has had more success in exporting its MFI-17 Super Mushshak military training aircraft, a PAC licence-built variant of the Saab MFI-17 Supporter aircraft, and is close to scoring a major export order, according to IHS Jane’s Defense Weekly. Islamabad appears to be in the final stages of concluding a deal to export 52 Super Mushshak trainer aircraft to Turkey. Previous customers of the MFI-17 have included Iran, Iraq, Oman, and Saudi Arabia.


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## fatman17

JF17


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## mingle

ZedZeeshan said:


> He is Good Looking and really Handsome..


Met his elder Brother Air Com r Najeeb Ahmed khan at Pakistani counslate toronto .Great guy very elderly now get support of walker .He has a great respect Even paid homage and i felt in his elderly eyes tears sadness about two heros 1Wing comd Leslie Middlecoat saheed 2 Sq Ldr Muneer ul deen both SJ could be his best buddies sometimes u very close to few ppl .

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## fatman17

Sri Lanka has expressed an interest in replacing its aging Kfir fighters. According to a cabinet spokesperson, the government has approved a new competition and is looking for interested manufacturers to come forward. The service is looking at getting between eight to twelve aircraft which at present is down to only one serviceable fighter.

We should make another go at selling the JFT to Sri Lanka.

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## syed_yusuf

Sri Lanka will not go JFT even it is a good option

They are pressured and r under pressure from bhindi 

They should go for lca


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## fatman17

Industry

Sri Lanka prepares to launch combat aircraft procurement programme

Jon Grevatt, Bangkok - IHS Jane's Defence Industry

15 August 2016

The Sri Lankan government is preparing to issue a request for information (RFI) in support of a programme to procure multirole combat aircraft, IHS Jane's understands.

The programme, featuring the acquisition of between 8-12 aircraft, will be pursued through an inter-government agreement after Cabinet approval for the purchase was given on 11 August.

An official involved in the Sri Lankan defence procurement system said the government has yet to make any decision on the make of aircraft. IHS Jane's understands that it is likely that the RFI will be followed by a tender to procure the platform from an international supplier, although a timeframe is not confirmed.

State news in Sri Lanka had earlier cited Cabinet spokesman Gayantha Karunathilaka as saying that the Sri Lanka Air Force (SLAF) required new combat aircraft to boost ageing inventories, maintain maritime security, and face any unexpected threat.

Sri Lanka is looking to replace its fleet of fighter aircraft, with the country currently facing operational issues with its inventory. (Sri Lankan Air Force)

He said that at present only one of seven Israel Aircraft Industries Kfir C2/C7 fighter aircraft acquired from the 1990s was operational. He added that none of the SLAF's remaining fighter aircraft fleets, comprised of a few Russian MiG-27 fighter aircraft and around seven Chinese J-7s, were operational.

"The government will consider all offers and will select a suitable [aircraft]," he said of the combat aircraft procurement programme.

In January IHS Jane's reported that Sri Lanka had agreed a USD400 million deal with Pakistan to purchase up to 12 JF-17 Thunder fighter aircraft, which was developed by the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) and China's Chengdu Aircraft Corporation (CAC).

However, diplomatic and political pressure by India is believed to have stalled the programme. IHS Jane'sreported at the time that India, which considers Sri Lanka a security partner, was anxious to prevent Pakistan and China from jointly expanding defence links with Colombo.

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## fatman17

SLAF Kfir fighter

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## fatman17

The latest image (July 2016) suggested that the 04 prototype has been wearing a new blue color scheme based upon customer's (Myanmar) requirements.
- Last Updated 8/15/16

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## fatman17

ISLAMABAD: (APP) Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV) of Pakistan Air Force while on a routine training mission, on Monday made an emergency recovery near Sargodha.

No loss of civilian life and property was reported on ground, PAF’s news release here stated.
A board of inquiry has been ordered by Air Headquarters to determine the cause of accident


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## fatman17

PAC Kamra: Symbol of Self Reliance in defence production in Pakistan

Posted By: News Deskon: August 15, 2016 
PAC Kamra: Symbol of Self Reliance in defence production in Pakistan



ISLAMABAD: (APP) Chairman Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) Kamra Air Marshal Arshad Malik Monday said the organization had saved around $ 1209.2 million by undertaking different projects relating to defence production indigenously.

“Local value of the projects undertaken at PAC, Kamra was 615.567 million USD, but if they were imported, the cost would have raised to greater extent,” he said.

Briefing Federal Minister for Defence Production Rana Tanveer Hussain regarding performance and achievements of the PAC Kamra in the fiscal year 2015-16, he said the complex was contributing more than $ 1billion to the national exchequer annually on account of saving by promoting local production.

The meeting held in the Ministry of Defence Production was attended also attended by senior officials of the ministry, according to a press release.

PAC, the chairman said, with the help of highly qualified engineers, hardworking and skilled technicians had shown remarkable achievements in cost saving in the development of indigenous projects.

The minister was given a detailed briefing about working of the constituent factories of PAC including Aircraft Rebuild Factory, Aircraft Manufacturing Factory, Mirage Rebuild Factory and Avionics Production Factory.
Rana Tanveer took keen interest in the briefing and raised several questions to further improve and enhance working of the PAC Kamra.



Sharing achievements of the factories, the chairman said the PAC technicians and engineers were working hard and they had achieved all the goals set for the fiscal year 2015,16.

He chairman also explained about the assembling, rebuilding and manufacturing of JF-17 and Mushshak jets in collaboration with China.

The minister expressed satisfaction over the progress of JF-17 and Super Mushshak programme.
He praised the professional competence and commitment displayed by PAC personnel in the JF-17 programme and urged them to continue in pursuit of excellence.

The chairman also briefed regarding the importance of vocational training institutes in order to produce properly skilled labour for industries like PAC.

The minister appreciated the idea and elaborated various steps taken by the federal and provincial governments for development of vocational training institutes in the country.

He emphasized on sustainability and upgradation of the existing setups rather than creating new parallel systems.
Rana Tanveer assured that the government would extend full support to promote indigenous production of defence items and their exports.

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## fatman17

Israel, Pakistan, UAE join US Air Force exercise

By YONAH JEREMY BOB

Tue, 16 Aug 2016, 08:49 AM


Countries without diplomatic relations are rarely seen in joint military exercises, but few nations would miss an opportunity to work with the US Air Force.


Israel, Pakistan and the United Arab Emirates began joint military exercises on Monday as part of the US Air Force’s elite Red Flag drill at Nellis Air Force Base in the Nevada desert.

Countries without diplomatic relations are rarely seen in joint military exercises, but few nations would be likely to allow such concerns cause them to miss an opportunity to work with the US Air Force.

The IDF Spokesperson’s Unit declined comment on participation by Pakistan or the UAE, but regarding Israeli involvement said, “The air force trains regularly in Israel and abroad in order to maintain operational readiness for different operational situations. The ‘Red Flag’ exercise is a unique and high quality exercise. When the air force was invited to participate, it responded by accepting.”

During the exercise, pilots are divided into teams engaged in simulated dog fights and other difficult missions. Israel is expected to face surface-to-air missile simulations of those it could face from Hezbollah and other adversaries.



Israeli and Pakistani air force pilots reportedly have already flown to the US in their own air forces’ F-16 fighter jets.

There is some expectation that the US might showcase its new F-35 fighter, dozens of which Israel has ordered to help secure air superiority for the future.

The Aviationist website reported sightings of Pakistani jets on their way to the exercise.

Plans to include Pakistan and the UAE were first announced by the US Air Force in 2015.

Reports of clandestine contacts between Israel, Pakistan and the UAE have surfaced in the past. It is widely assumed that some warming of ties has occurred out of public view, as Sunni Gulf countries networked with Israel about problems shared in common over Iran.

In November 2015 Israel opened a diplomatic mission in the UAE to confer with the International Renewable Energy Association.

Even as the UAE emphasized that the mission had no connection to the UAE government, the acceptance of diplomatic representatives signaled a thaw in relations.

The exercise is due to run through August 26 at Nellis Air Force base, one of the largest fighter bases in the world.

Nellis operates on the Nevada Test and Training Range, encompassing some 15,000 square miles of airspace and 4,700 square miles of restricted land.

From altitudes as low as 100 feet, at speeds up to twice that of sound, the base is home to advanced combat training, operational testing and tactic development.

Last year, Israel and Jordan participated in a similar joint exercise. Pakistan has also participated in the past, but until now, never at the same time as Israel.


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## RAMPAGE

@Oscar

Sir, remember we were talking about something like Brimstone for PAF against enemy armour? What do you think about using them against enemy hangers and airbases?


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## fatman17

Today in F-16 history

20 Aug 1982 
PAF accepts first F-16 from Peace Gate I order.


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## fatman17

F16 Block15


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## SQ8

RAMPAGE said:


> @Oscar
> 
> Sir, remember we were talking about something like Brimstone for PAF against enemy armour? What do you think about using them against enemy hangers and airbases?


Most of IAF hangers are hardened(have been so after 65) and generally nothing except penetrating warheads(which the PAF has for its GBU kits) will work. 

The Brimstone is designed to punch through Tank armour and certain hardened bunkers but may not cause the damage that is required against a HAS.

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## RAMPAGE

Oscar said:


> Most of IAF hangers are hardened(have been so after 65) and generally nothing except penetrating warheads(which the PAF has for its GBU kits) will work.
> 
> The Brimstone is designed to punch through Tank armour and certain hardened bunkers but may not cause the damage that is required against a HAS.


What do you think about a squadron of FC-31s? And about the following scenario?


_Just imagine for a moment, a formation of 3 x FC-31s carrying Chinese/Pakistani substitute for 8 x brimstones (60 KM range) or the same number of GBU-53s (105 KM range) plus 2 x PL-15s inside its weapons bay. The 3 of them would be able to fire 24 ASMs at 24 different hangers/aircrafts. And they will certainly return back unharmed and probably without facing any opposition from IAF in the air._


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## SQ8

RAMPAGE said:


> What do you think about a squadron of FC-31s? And about the following scenario?
> 
> 
> _Just imagine for a moment, a formation of 3 x FC-31s carrying Chinese/Pakistani substitute for 8 x brimstones (60 KM range) or the same number of GBU-53s (105 KM range) plus 2 x PL-15s inside its weapons bay. The 3 of them would be able to fire 24 ASMs at 24 different hangers/aircrafts. And they will certainly return back unharmed and probably without facing any opposition from IAF in the air._


That wont happen since that substitute wont cover hardened targets unless GIDS(or someone else) comes up with something useful which they haven't for now since the Takbir system isnt exactly tried and the SDB series will never be on a Chinese product. 
Then, they will have to go through a very small patch within the Indian ADGe where the IAf will place fighters to provide coverage for the gaps. 

A better solution is having systems like the Raad have the penetration and runway denial capability; something that might already exist.


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## RAMPAGE

Oscar said:


> That wont happen since that substitute wont cover hardened targets unless GIDS(or someone else) comes up with something useful which they haven't for now since the Takbir system isnt exactly tried and the SDB series will never be on a Chinese product.
> Then, they will have to go through a very small patch within the Indian ADGe where the IAf will place fighters to provide coverage for the gaps.
> 
> A better solution is having systems like the Raad have the penetration and runway denial capability; something that might already exist.


There is the H-2 SOW and @Bilal Khan 777 mentioned multiple air launched munitions underdevelopment. But what do you think of the FC-31? Will it be possible to induct a squadron by 2020?

@Oscar But it would be easier to pick up and intercept Ra'ad in terminal phase than FC-31 at a stand-off range or those SDBs lauched by it.


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## SQ8

RAMPAGE said:


> There is the H-2 SOW and @Bilal Khan 777 mentioned multiple air launched munitions underdevelopment. But what do you think of the FC-31? Will it be possible to induct a squadron by 2020?


No. The FC-31 is offered but there are reasons the PAF is not that impressed with it.


----------



## RAMPAGE

Oscar said:


> No. The FC-31 is offered but there are reasons the PAF is not that impressed with it.


Wasn't that sort of a technology demonstrator? They're planning a V2 of sorts.


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## SQ8

RAMPAGE said:


> Wasn't that sort of a technology demonstrator? They're planning a V2 of sorts.


The V2 is nowhere and the demonstrator has not given any hope to a fruitful performance of any V2.

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## fatman17

Pilot Officer Rashid Minhas Shaheed Nishan e Haider, 20th August 1971.


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## fatman17

Just a nice pic

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## HAIDER



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## Bilal Khan 777

RAMPAGE said:


> There is the H-2 SOW and @Bilal Khan 777 mentioned multiple air launched munitions underdevelopment. But what do you think of the FC-31? Will it be possible to induct a squadron by 2020?
> 
> @Oscar But it would be easier to pick up and intercept Ra'ad in terminal phase than FC-31 at a stand-off range or those SDBs lauched by it.



The solution is a lower cost Umbani derived Al Tariq system, with further standoff modifications to engaged the recent modifications in the Indian ADGE.

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## araz

Oscar said:


> The V2 is nowhere and the demonstrator has not given any hope to a fruitful performance of any V2.


Is it possible for you to elaborate a bit more. I understand fully if not.
A


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

araz said:


> Is it possible for you to elaborate a bit more. I understand fully if not.
> A


The first prototype - i.e. J-31 - was shown as a technology demonstrator or an example that China is capable of developing and producing a 5th generation fighter. When the J-31 was shown to the public for the first time in 2014, its aerial performance was not received well. Anyways, in 2015 AVIC promised that the final product - i.e. FC-31 - would be much improved, but in order to push the program forward, it required external development funding. To date, no one - not even Pakistan - has taken them up on that offer.

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## fatman17

PAF will not venture into another major project until the JF17 program has been completed, that is 150 aircraft inducted with progressive upgrades to earlier models of the type. Yes if opportunities to induct new or used F16s develop they will happily buy into.

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## araz

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The first prototype - i.e. J-31 - was shown as a technology demonstrator or an example that China is capable of developing and producing a 5th generation fighter. When the J-31 was shown to the public for the first time in 2014, its aerial performance was not received well. Anyways, in 2015 AVIC promised that the final product - i.e. FC-31 - would be much improved, but in order to push the program forward, it required external development funding. To date, no one - not even Pakistan - has taken them up on that offer.


Thank you. One always hopes for startling bits of info but what @Oscar has mentioned I remember having read on the net earlier. The fact remains that the Chinese will have to fund the J31 by themselves and perhaps even buy some for themselves before others will have the confidence to venture in. The JF17 experience and rthe denial to abide by an agreement(Source is again news articles so if someone knows better please let us know) has taught the PAF a good lesson. I dont think it will fall for the same trick again. As time passes by more options will emerge and allow PAF to look else where for collaboration/joint ventures. A bit of competition will get the Chinese armaments juggernaut to start moving in the right direction as well. This would be a win win situation for all.
Let watch this space.
A



fatman17 said:


> PAF will not venture into another major project until the JF17 program has been completed, that is 150 aircraft inducted with progressive upgrades to earlier models of the type. Yes if opportunities to induct new or used F16s develop they will happily buy into.


My friend!
It looks increasingly like JFT will run into the mid to late 20s with upto 5-6 blocks of 50s.PAFs options are extremely limited at the moment and will remain so till new avenues open up. Whether they lead to the same source or others remains to be seen.
A

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

araz said:


> Thank you. One always hopes for startling bits of info but what @Oscar has mentioned I remember having read on the net earlier. The fact remains that the Chinese will have to fund the J31 by themselves and perhaps even buy some for themselves before others will have the confidence to venture in. The JF17 experience and rthe denial to abide by an agreement(Source is again news articles so if someone knows better please let us know) has taught the PAF a good lesson. I dont think it will fall for the same trick again. As time passes by more options will emerge and allow PAF to look else where for collaboration/joint ventures. A bit of competition will get the Chinese armaments juggernaut to start moving in the right direction as well. This would be a win win situation for all.
> Let watch this space.
> A
> 
> 
> My friend!
> It looks increasingly like JFT will run into the mid to late 20s with upto 5-6 blocks of 50s.PAFs options are extremely limited at the moment and will remain so till new avenues open up. Whether they lead to the same source or others remains to be seen.
> A


Agreed. I think the JF-17 will be in production well into the 2020s and possibly longer as well. We've invested a ton into the program, and it'd be irrational to invest in a clean sheet design that fulfills the exact same purpose, but with relatively limited marginal gain (in comparison to a matured advance iteration JF-17). The next-generation fighter question may not involve as much localization as the JF-17, I expect - at least initially - the focus will be on acquiring a hi-tech successor to the F-16, and ensuring that it isn't as sanction prone as the F-16. What that would result in remains to be seen ... FC-31, TFX, Airbus FCAS, KFX, a Russian plane...who knows...

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## fatman17

araz said:


> Thank you. One always hopes for startling bits of info but what @Oscar has mentioned I remember having read on the net earlier. The fact remains that the Chinese will have to fund the J31 by themselves and perhaps even buy some for themselves before others will have the confidence to venture in. The JF17 experience and rthe denial to abide by an agreement(Source is again news articles so if someone knows better please let us know) has taught the PAF a good lesson. I dont think it will fall for the same trick again. As time passes by more options will emerge and allow PAF to look else where for collaboration/joint ventures. A bit of competition will get the Chinese armaments juggernaut to start moving in the right direction as well. This would be a win win situation for all.
> Let watch this space.
> A
> 
> 
> My friend!
> It looks increasingly like JFT will run into the mid to late 20s with upto 5-6 blocks of 50s.PAFs options are extremely limited at the moment and will remain so till new avenues open up. Whether they lead to the same source or others remains to be seen.
> A



Options open up when one has a lot of money, so basically it's up to us to vastly improve our economy. There is no other way and the civilian govt will only do so much on the economic front to be able to provide limited resources for the military. This is one way of keeping the men in uniform in check.


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## aliyusuf

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The first prototype - i.e. J-31 - was shown as a technology demonstrator or an example that China is capable of developing and producing a 5th generation fighter. When the J-31 was shown to the public for the first time in 2014, its aerial performance was not received well. Anyways, in 2015 AVIC promised that the final product - i.e. FC-31 - would be much improved, but in order to push the program forward, it required external development funding. To date, no one - not even Pakistan - has taken them up on that offer.



Sir, wouldn't this imply that the next generation fighter that the PAF is looking for will be considerably delayed in getting inducted. Correct me if I am wrong, then the only option would be a joint venture with Turkey or China after the infrastructure and requisite manpower necessary for such a program is developed and start functioning at the Aviation City. Will it not be safe to say that we are not getting any stealth fighter before 2030 or even later?

If the above case is true, then we will only be having later block iterations of the JF-17 and nothing else. The capabilities gap during the next 5 to 10 years will become critically lopsided in the adversaries favor.


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## niaz

Key is economy indeed. It is okay to wish that we should have this or that but how are we going to pay for the hardware?

Based on 2015 data as given in the Military Balance 2016; Pakistan’s GDP as of 2015 was Rs 27.4 trillion. Defence budget for 2015 being $7.456-billion is 2.75% of GDP. Indian GDP being $2.18- trillion. Defence expenditure of $48-billion is only 2.2% of the Indian GDP.

Among the super powers, Chinese GDP being $11.4-trilion, defence budget of $146-billion represents a mere 1.28%. USA Defence budget of $598-bilion represents 3.3% of GDP and Russia at $ 516-billion spends 4.18%.

In the Middle East Saudi Arabia’s defence expenditure of $81.8-billion represents 12.98% of GDP and Israel at $18.8-bilion spent 6.22% of her GDP on defence.

For a balance of power in the South Asian region; Pakistan needs to spend about 30% of Indian yearly defence budget or that about $15 to $16-billion. With GDP at current level it would represent 5.5% of GDP. This Pakistan cannot afford. Therefore only way to be strong enough to compete with India is by improving our economy to the extent that we can successfully defend against India with conventional forces; without resorting to nuclear weapons; as we did in 1965.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

aliyusuf said:


> Sir, wouldn't this imply that the next generation fighter that the PAF is looking for will be considerably delayed in getting inducted. Correct me if I am wrong, then the only option would be a joint venture with Turkey or China after the infrastructure and requisite manpower necessary for such a program is developed and start functioning at the Aviation City. Will it not be safe to say that we are not getting any stealth fighter before 2030 or even later?
> 
> If the above case is true, then we will only be having later block iterations of the JF-17 and nothing else. The capabilities gap during the next 5 to 10 years will become critically lopsided in the adversaries favor.


Ideally, I imagine the PAF would love to have an intermediary jet such as the Su-35 or AESA equipped F-16 to hold the fort until the next gen platform.

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## fatman17

Mirage line up at night

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## fatman17

JF 17

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## Rocky rock



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## fatman17

Red Flag and Green Flag pics

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## fatman17

F16 C/D

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## Inception-06

Rocky rock said:


> View attachment 329247
> View attachment 329248




Notice the shelters in the backround: 

Exelent picture, which air base is that ?Is it common in the Pakistan air force to build bunkers by using stone bricks ? Or have stone bricks and cement the same protection level ?



fatman17 said:


> View attachment 329011
> 
> Mirage line up at night



Impressive picture, are this weather shelters also camouflaged from above ?


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## fatman17

Ulla said:


> Notice the shelters in the backround:
> 
> Exelent picture, which air base is that ?Is it common in the Pakistan air force to build bunkers by using stone bricks ? Or have stone bricks and cement the same protection level ?
> 
> 
> 
> Impressive picture, are this weather shelters also camouflaged from above ?



To protect from intense heat of the sun.


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## barbarosa

Agar Magar say kam nahi chaley ga. PAF has need of new air crafts,Typoone or SU35.
F16 has gone, leave the dreams of F16.


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## fatman17

China has set up its own state-owned aircraft engine maker . Registered with $7.5 billion in capital, the move comes as Beijing seeks to push Chinese products and services up the value chain, prioritizing aircraft engines, high-speed rail, and nuclear power as areas in which it wants China to excel. State-owned AVIC said in March that it was finalizing a 129 billion yuan merger of its aircraft engine businesses in a move to create a giant that could eventually compete with the likes of United Technologies Corp’s aircraft engine maker Pratt & Whitney.

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## mingle

fatman17 said:


> China has set up its own state-owned aircraft engine maker . Registered with $7.5 billion in capital, the move comes as Beijing seeks to push Chinese products and services up the value chain, prioritizing aircraft engines, high-speed rail, and nuclear power as areas in which it wants China to excel. State-owned AVIC said in March that it was finalizing a 129 billion yuan merger of its aircraft engine businesses in a move to create a giant that could eventually compete with the likes of United Technologies Corp’s aircraft engine maker Pratt & Whitney.


Its great move


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## newindiandefence

I think u should go for. Mig 35 best option for pak. Egypt signed deal for 50 its @ 2 billion .... it's affordable and 4.5+ gen fighter........ buy 100 Mig 35 if Russia allow .


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## fatman17

newindiandefence said:


> I think u should go for. Mig 35 best option for pak. Egypt signed deal for 50 its @ 2 billion .... it's affordable and 4.5+ gen fighter........ buy 100 Mig 35 if Russia allow .



will not happen. Pakistan's options are quite limited.



niaz said:


> Key is economy indeed. It is okay to wish that we should have this or that but how are we going to pay for the hardware?
> 
> Based on 2015 data as given in the Military Balance 2016; Pakistan’s GDP as of 2015 was Rs 27.4 trillion. Defence budget for 2015 being $7.456-billion is 2.75% of GDP. Indian GDP being $2.18- trillion. Defence expenditure of $48-billion is only 2.2% of the Indian GDP.
> 
> Among the super powers, Chinese GDP being $11.4-trilion, defence budget of $146-billion represents a mere 1.28%. USA Defence budget of $598-bilion represents 3.3% of GDP and Russia at $ 516-billion spends 4.18%.
> 
> In the Middle East Saudi Arabia’s defence expenditure of $81.8-billion represents 12.98% of GDP and Israel at $18.8-bilion spent 6.22% of her GDP on defence.
> 
> For a balance of power in the South Asian region; Pakistan needs to spend about 30% of Indian yearly defence budget or that about $15 to $16-billion. With GDP at current level it would represent 5.5% of GDP. This Pakistan cannot afford. Therefore only way to be strong enough to compete with India is by improving our economy to the extent that we can successfully defend against India with conventional forces; without resorting to nuclear weapons; as we did in 1965.



we have to resolve our electricity power crisis before we can do anything. factories cannot run on water. our exports are dwindling since 2013.

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## immehdis

EagleEyes said:


> A breif information about this would be appreciated.
> 
> Any who..
> 
> So total number of F-16s planned are?
> 
> 18 New F-16 Block 50+
> 18 New F-16 Block 50+ (Option, but not ordered)
> 36 F-16 Block 15+ with few Block 40+.
> 
> Any other orders? Can anybody confirm the old F-16s we are getting. What was the number?

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## fatman17

Red Flag

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## fatman17

New book launch on PAF

*Israeli pilots return home after flying alongside Pakistan, UAE in US drill*
*IAF aircraft stage dogfights, aerial simulations with foreign militaries over Nevada desert in US Air Force’s Red Flag exercise*
By Judah Ari Gross September 1, 2016, 3:41 pm 






Israel Air Force F-16 fighter jets and a refueling plane fly in formation over Nevada during the United States Air Force's Red Flag exercise in August. (IDF Spokesperson's Unit)
 Judah Ari Gross  Judah Ari Gross is The Times of Israel's military correspondent.

*

Israeli Air Force fighter jets and refueling aircraft took part in the nearly two-week exercise at Nellis Air Force Base, from August 15 to 26, before returning to Israel on Wednesday, the army said. 
*


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## Erroroverload

Fighter Jets roaring in Lahore now.
i made a video will upload it later


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## Erroroverload

today in Lahore

sorry for the bad quality video. i forgot to change settings of my mobile

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## Inception-06

Z4ZOHAIB said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=150455475401006


 Near Faisalabad I saw every morning F-7 sometimes one, sometimes 2 was amazing to see this jets !


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## Dazzler

And i see Thunders and Mirages chasing each other's arse all the time. It is quite a show, especially when the sun goes down. Watching thunders making those swift maneuvers is quite a spectacle.

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## ZedZeeshan

Rehearsal for 6th September... I really miss those days when I use to stand on the roof and watch them roar...If I were in Lahore I would have done same as I use to do when I was a kid.. Good Old days..


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## Erroroverload

3rd September, It was a brilliant show by PAF.
Uploaded video on YouTube but quality goes down I don't know y


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## fatman17

Thundering away


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## Erroroverload




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## fatman17

F-16s help strengthen bond between US, Pakistan air forces

August 31, 2016 (by A1C Nathan Byrnes) - Pakistan Air Force F-16C/D aircraft traveled more than 7,700 miles to participate in Red Flag 16-4 from Aug. 15-26.

PAF F-16C block 52 #10904 from 5 Sqn prepares for takeoff at Nellis AFB on August 17, 2016. Members of the Pakistan Air Force traveled more than 7,700 miles to participate in Red Flag 16-4. [USAF photo by TSgt. Frank Miller]


"" style="border: 0px; vertical-align: bottom;">The training allowed the Pakistan and U.S. air forces to continue building and strengthening their relationship. It also provided them the chance to improve integration, further training and enhance the readiness of air operations.

“The F-16 has been the lynchpin in accomplishing our mutual desired objectives,” said Pakistan Air Vice Marshal Syed Noman Ali, the deputy chief of air staff. “At the strategic level it has been extremely valuable. On the capability enhancement and objective achievement on the ground, this aircraft has been the most useful.”

Pakistan brought a unique set of skills to the exercise, from their willingness to collaborate to their motivation to get the most out of the training scenarios.

“For me, it is absolutely phenomenal to have a partner who is willing to do that and looks at this as truly an opportunity to not only get better as a force within the Pakistan Air Force but also how to better integrate with everyone else,” said Maj. Gen. Rick B. Mattson, the chief of the Office of the Defense Representative, Pakistan. “That has been a major focus for the team that has been here and I have already heard about ways they are able to integrate better through technology and we will try to work on that part.”

Not only have the Pakistan pilots been impressive but also their maintenance team as well.

“I have a lot of experience in the Middle East and this is a very unique capability that they have,” Mattson said. “When you go through the maintenance facility, bays, it’s all Pakistan enlisted working on these aircrafts.”

Integration has been a major focus for Red Flag 16-4 and the Pakistan Air Force has played a key role in helping achieve that goal. 

“When you have a force that is that professional and is dedicated to training and working together as a coalition you are going to get better as a group and I think that has been the biggest lesson from this,” Mattson said.

The exercise has helped both air forces learn each other’s strengths and utilizing those strengths in real-world situations.

“Whenever we’ve been together with the U.S. in terms of an exercise or other engagements it has been amazing, productive and mutually rewarding experience on both sides,” Ali said. “Whether its actual strategies that have been going on in the region or it has been exercises that train for certain events, I would expect this type of relationship to grow stronger in the future.”


Courtesy of 99th Air Base Wing Public Affairs


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## dilpakistani

Z4ZOHAIB said:


> 3rd September, It was a brilliant show by PAF.
> Uploaded video on YouTube but quality goes down I don't know y


I enjoyed the fact that you recognized the correctly ... and i am thrilled by the fact that i know the aircraft from it's engine roar... i think i need to get some life

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## fatman17

Just some nice pics

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## redgriffin

dilpakistani said:


> I enjoyed the fact that you recognized the correctly ... and i am thrilled by the fact that i know the aircraft from it's engine roar... i think i need to get some life


You think you need a life. I'm home down with flu & was recognising not only the powerplant noises but also the directions in which the fighters were exiting after their routine. #Facepalm

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## fatman17

SU 35 

September 7/16: Progress has been made in talks between Pakistan and Russia over the purchase of the Su-35fighters. Pakistani Ambassador to Russia Qazi Khalilullah called the talks “fruitful” adding that Islamabad “is considering different options of deepening cooperation with Russia.”


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## fatman17

Distortions of lndian media

In A World Going Mad, A Pakistan Air Force Pilot Set An Example ...

Indiatimes.com - 05-Sep-2016

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## fatman17

JFT


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## khanasifm

History

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20160826-the-1950s-jet-launching-tiny-satellites


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## fatman17

India displays the tail of a pakistani F6 which is actually the tai












l of a MiG21. Watch pictures below closely.

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## khanasifm

17 Sqn PG at Masroor??? ADA @ 55:11 min or they just put a shot of them 
One of the new pilot had 17 sqn bade who was new to Masroor in the Mess, looks like 17 moved in to Masroor not sure if for good or temp


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## Thorough Pro

That is what I said in my argument even before this clarification came out.

https://defence.pk/threads/a-pakist...eta-escape-torture.447879/page-5#post-8662088



fatman17 said:


> Distortions of lndian media
> 
> In A World Going Mad, A Pakistan Air Force Pilot Set An Example ...
> 
> Indiatimes.com - 05-Sep-2016


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## fatman17

Defence Day celebrations

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## fatman17

More pics

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## fatman17

More. ....

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## Parii

HAIDER said:


>



Asalam o alaikum sir can u please inform me about what is criteria for female medical students for PAF


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## fatman17

Parii said:


> Asalam o alaikum sir can u please inform me about what is criteria for female medical students for PAF



Pl contact PAF selection board / office in your area for details.


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## fatman17

Just a nice pic F107


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## The Eagle

Chairman PAC Kamra Air Marshal Arshad Malik with Air Marshal Farooq Habib, representing Pakistan at AAD 2016.






Pakistan's very own Super Mushak aircraft on static and aerial display at African Aerospace Defence show AAD 2016.

Via Aperture Sensation






Just loved it, thought to share. 

<iframe src="https://player.vimeo.com/video/65579668" width="640" height="360" frameborder="0" webkitallowfullscreen mozallowfullscreen allowfullscreen></iframe>

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## fatman17

In South Africa 2016

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## Windjammer




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## fatman17

Windjammer said:


>



3 future ACMs in the photo


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## The Eagle

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/776027282674708481


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## fatman17

All set for press briefing at SA airshow 2016

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## The Eagle

*AAD 2016: Nigerian JF-17 deal close to finalisation*
*Jeremy Binnie, Pretoria* - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
15 September 2016





The Nigerian JF-17 contract is expected to be announced at Pakistan's IDEAS show in November. Source: IHS/Patrick Allen
Nigeria has signed a memorandum of understanding covering the sale of the joint Pakistani-Chinese PAC/CAC JF-17 Thunder multirole fighter and a contract is expected to be finalised by November, a senior official from the Pakistan's Defence Export Promotion Organization (DEPO) told _IHS Jane's_ during the Africa Aerospace and Defence (AAD) show held in South Africa from 14-18 September.

The official declined to say how many JF-17s Nigeria would order, but said the announcement was expected during the IDEAS show that will be held in Karachi in November.

He also declined to confirm that Nigeria will be the first export operator of the JF-17 as Myanmar has ordered the aircraft from China.

Nigeria's intention to acquire the fighter was revealed in the federal budget document that was released in January, which included NGN5 billion (USD25 million) for three JF-17s as well NGN2.06 billion for 10 PAC Super Mushshak basic trainers.

The DEPO official said that discussions were still continuing with both the Nigerian Air Force and the army's new aviation wing regarding the acquisition of the Super Mushshak trainers.


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## The Eagle

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/776435033590599680

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## fatman17

With the Nigeria defence minister

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## fatman17

Joint presser with President of CATIC

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## fatman17

With Zimbabwe air chief


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## ZedZeeshan

The Eagle said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/776435033590599680


Looks as Air marshal is heading to try for a kiss...


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## fatman17

ZedZeeshan said:


> Looks as Air marshal is heading to try for a kiss...



If it sells the thunder why not

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## Rocky rock

Saab 2000 Awacs. at Shamsi Airbase.

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## PDF

Well as Rafale deal of India is almost completed, We are going to counter it but How are we going to counter this move? Maybe by Su-35,Typhoon,F-16 or maybe something else.
Note: Please don't reply like Rafale deal is not done or No rafale deal or start trolling the rafale deal. start a serious discussion.


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## Rocky rock

M.Musa said:


> Well as Rafale deal of India is almost completed, We are going to counter it but How are we going to counter this move? Maybe by Su-35,Typhoon,F-16 or maybe something else.
> Note: Please don't reply like Rafale deal is not done or No rafale deal or start trolling the rafale deal. start a serious discussion.



Let me clear you with real facts. No Typhoon or Rafael's are coming. very rare chances of Su-35. you are just goona watch JF-17 new block and more used F-16's that's it. So Stop Dreaming

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## PDF

Rocky rock said:


> Let me clear you with real facts. No Typhoon or Rafael's are coming. very rare chances of Su-35. you are just goona watch JF-17 new block and more used F-16's that's it. So Stop Dreaming


Actually I also think the same. I just wanted to move forward the discussion. I like being realistic.though i am a little bit optimistic about Su-35.


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## Rocky rock

M.Musa said:


> Actually I also think the same. I just wanted to move forward the discussion. I like being realistic.though i am a little bit optimistic about Su-35.



i think we can afford at least an Squadron of Su-35 if we look towards future economy Situation. let's see what comes out. Hope for the Best!

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## PDF

Rocky rock said:


> i think we can afford at least an Squadron of Su-35 if we look towards future economy Situation


Money is a issue but not a major one. We also have other factors including the problems related to inducting a new platform,geopolitics etc. But as you have said, lets hope for the best.


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## Ultima Thule

Rocky rock said:


> i think we can afford at least an Squadron of Su-35 if we look towards future economy Situation. let's see what comes out. Hope for the Best!


what about Chinese J series jets like J-10C or J-11D


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## Rocky rock

M.Musa said:


> Money is a issue but not a major one. We also have other factors including the problems related to inducting a new platform,geopolitics etc. But as you have said, lets hope for the best.



Money was always a Major issue for Pakistan and than Corrupt Politicians & their failed Politics, Relation with Foreign Countries. and than their comes indian looby to Stop other countries to supply any lethal weapon to Pakistan.
So there are several factors not a single issue which comes in front of our Foreign weapon deals.



pakistanipower said:


> what about Chinese J series jets like J-10C or J-11D



As Air Chief has already Said J-10 isn't going to bring something Special. So the chances of J-10 are already gone. but who knows when they turn over their Cards it depends.

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## Ultima Thule

Rocky rock said:


> As Air Chief has already Said J-10 isn't going to bring something Special. So the chances of J-10 are already gone. but who knows when they turn over their Cards it depends.


But bro he might be talking about J-10A but i am talking about J-10C which is using AESA and subsystems from J-20 as per Chinese defense section, thus it far more advance than our F-16 blk 52


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## Rocky rock

pakistanipower said:


> But bro he might be talking about J-10A but i am talking about J-10C which is using AESA and subsystems from J-20 as per Chinese defense section, thus it far more advance than our F-16 blk 52



It's in trials yet until the full production will take place. we may sign an agreement of Su-35 till than. and Pakistan isn't showing any interest to bring any new platform in numbers the induction is to fill the gap. until we start indigenous Development of Next Gen Aircraft.


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## Ultima Thule

Rocky rock said:


> It's in trials yet until the full production will take place. we may sign an agreement of Su-35 till than. and *Pakistan isn't showing any interest to bring any new platform in numbers the induction is to fill the gap*. until we start indigenous Development of Next Gen Aircraft.


it is not in trail but reach squadren level and what are you talking about? please care to explain above Bold part, SU-35 isn't new for PAF


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## khanasifm

????

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## fatman17

Rocky rock said:


> It's in trials yet until the full production will take place. we may sign an agreement of Su-35 till than. and Pakistan isn't showing any interest to bring any new platform in numbers the induction is to fill the gap. until we start indigenous Development of Next Gen Aircraft.



Not until JFT program is complete. Planners I'm sure have their recommendations but what they are is a good guess at this juncture.

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## Rocky rock

pakistanipower said:


> it is not in trail but reach squadren level



Last time when i heard about J-10c it was in trails but i am sure they haven't inducted it in Airforce yet. it's J-10A/B which PLAF is flying now. 



pakistanipower said:


> please care to explain above Bold part,



i've just said PAF isn't having any plan to buy new aircraft's in large numbers Su-35 which they are thinking to induct is just to fill the gap until Pakistan manufacture it's next Gen Fighter Aircraft in collaboration with China turkey or xyz.



pakistanipower said:


> SU-35 isn't new for PAF



Yea it's not new for PAF they are flying it since 1965 right?


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## Ultima Thule

Rocky rock said:


> i've just said PAF isn't having any plan to buy new aircraft's in large numbers Su-35 which they are thinking to induct is just to fill the gap until Pakistan manufacture it's next Gen Fighter Aircraft in collaboration with China turkey or xyz.


yes you are absolutely Right bro


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## Dazzler

c4I

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## Major Sam

khanasifm said:


> ????
> View attachment 335035



some where in Baluchistan ?



Dazzler said:


> c4I
> 
> 
> View attachment 335427
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 335428



can you plz explain it a bit ?


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## Dazzler

Major Sam said:


> some where in Baluchistan ?
> 
> 
> 
> can you plz explain it a bit ?



basically, the command, control, communications, computer, and intelligence, is a complete air defence and warning solution that is made by Air weapons complex for pakistani armed forces and export.


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## khanasifm

NEW PAF MOB


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## fatman17

The Pakistani-Chinese JF-17 fighter will be making its way to Nigeria after a memorandum of understanding was signed



at this year’s AAD. While the exact amount of the fighters has yet to be revealed, further details on the deal are expected to be announced in November during the IDEAS



show in Karachi, Pakistan. Nigerian budget allocations released in January, however, earmarked $25 million for three JF-17s, with approximately half that amount made available for the acquisition of ten PAC Super Mushshak



basic trainers.


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## fatman17

PM NS used this VIP aircraft for his trip to UNGA, New York. Stopped over in Denmark.

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## fatman17

Africa Aerospace & Defence 2016

Thunderous co-operation [AAD16D3]

Don Henning

16 September 2016

At a media briefing at AAD 2016 hosted by both the China National Aero-Technology Import and Export Corporation (CATIC) and the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), the focus was on the co-operation between the two groups in the design and development of the JF-17 Thunder over a long period of time.

Co-operation in the marketing of the jet fighter was also highlighted. It was stressed that it was an ongoing project and would continue to adapt to changing circumstances.

The partners feel that the jet is suitable for marketing in middle income countries because of its design and cost. Capabilities such as beyond-visual range and within-visible range air combat and long-range air-to-surface precision attack come with a high price tag and high operating costs for modern fighters. However, it is stated that the JF-17 is designed to achieve a good balance between advanced technology and cost effectiveness.

The designation “JF-17” by Pakistan is short for “Joint Fighter – 1”. The Chinese designation is “FC-1 Xiaolong”, which means “Fighter China – 1 Fierce Dragon”. A detailed description of developments over a number of years – from the 1990s – and ongoing was provided and a JF-17 test pilot spoke about the capabilities of the aircraft. It is described as a new-generation multirole light combat aircraft, designed to meet the demands of current and future threat scenarios. The aircraft has formidable air combat capability and comprehensive surface attack capability combined with excellent manoeuvrability. A variety of weaponry can be carried and it has an advanced integrated avionic system as well as a digital glass cockpit. This is topped off by an advanced integrated logistic support system.


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## fatman17

Africa Aerospace & Defence 2016

Pakistan flight in force [AAD16D3]

Don Henning

16 September 2016

Visitors to AAD are being treated to the aerial prowess of the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex Mushshak, a light, robust primary flight trainer and utility aircraft, whose display includes deliberate spinning.

PAC (Hangar 7, Stand CE12) entered the field of maintenance, repair and overhaul (MRO) of aircraft in the early 1970s, as well as components of Chinese origin for the Pakistan Air Force. PAC subsequently moved towards MRO of Mirage III and V aircraft.

In the field of aviation manufacturing, PAC progressed from the manufacture of the Mushshak and Super Mushshak aircraft for primary training to the Karakorum-8 (K-8) advanced jet trainer. The Super Mushshak is a powerful two-/three-seat trainer with a more advanced avionics package. The K-8 has a multi-role mission capability including air-to-air and air-to-ground weapon delivery.

Today, PAC has advanced technology to design and manufacture the multi-role JF-17 fighter aircraft and upgrade the avionics of fighter aircraft. The JF-17 Thunder is a new-generation single-seat multi-role light fighter with high manoeuvrability and beyond visual range capability. It has a long-range operational radius and advanced aerodynamic configurations.

The PAC contingent at AAD is headed by chairman Air Marshal Arshad Malik.


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## fatman17

JU87 Stuka dive bomber


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## Windjammer

*No 19 squadron instructors patch.*

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## JamD

Windjammer said:


> *No 19 squadron instructors patch.*
> 
> View attachment 335799


Is there any way I can get my hands on this? Would really appreciate any leads @Windjammer


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## Raider 21

Windjammer said:


> *No 19 squadron instructors patch.*
> 
> View attachment 335799


Would really like to get this for my dad. Even though he Flew F-16s with 3 different squadrons, No.19 Squadron was where he was the flight commander during the mid 90s and that too when they were instructing on F-7s as an OCU squadron.


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## fatman17

High Mark 2016


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## fatman17

Knuckles said:


> Would really like to get this for my dad. Even though he Flew F-16s with 3 different squadrons, No.19 Squadron was where he was the flight commander during the mid 90s and that too when they were instructing on F-7s as an OCU squadron.



I'm sure you have enough PAF contacts to get one.


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## PDF

M.Musa said:


> Well as Rafale deal of India is completed, We are going to counter it but How are we going to counter this move? Maybe by Su-35,Typhoon,F-16 or maybe something else.
> Note: Please don't reply like Rafale deal is not done or No rafale deal or start trolling the rafale deal.We are already lagging behind as India has plenty of Su-30 outnumbering us already...


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## salman-1

At the moment PAF looks confused, doesn't want to go for Fc20, but have no sufficient funds for a western bird. Even if we could buy Eft there are no certain gaurantees that we would not be denied of spares and service in time of conflict.
The favourite F16 doesn't fit upto the mark of having a cutting edge against rafael as at least only Blk 52 could just fit for a tough competition.


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## khanasifm

"The favorite F16 doesn't fit upto the mark of having a cutting edge against rafael as at least only Blk 52 could just fit for a tough competition."

Barring Blk 52 s structural changes (CFT) avionics wise MLU can bring any F16 to latest model so the above statement is not correct, infect it was Europeans MLU which were later adopted by USAF in later blocks

LM can provide anything provided Pak can pay for it. last 8 were not declined by US but Pak could not justify paying almost 100 Mil per plane which mean you can buy 5+ JF-17 for the same amount (against single block 52+).


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## syed_yusuf

how much does J-10C will cost to PAF per plane.


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## Inception-06

syed_yusuf said:


> how much does J-10C will cost to PAF per plane.




Best question and most important question in this thread ! Could it be the half price of a F-16 ? I have no clue about Air Force topics.


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## khanasifm

If true looks like Chinese like US AIM-120d adopted dual pulse rocket motor rather than European Meteor throttleable ducted rocket (ramjet)

http://www.china-arms.com/2015/09/c...ssile-to-be-equipped-to-j-20-stealth-fighter/


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## fatman17

Pakistan Air Force Chengdu F-7PGSeptember 24th, 2016 This F-7PG crashed during a training mission in northwest Pakistan, killing the pilot, Flt Lt Amer Shehzad.


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## fatman17

Pakistan Air Force UAV Destroyed In Crash

A PAKISTAN Air Force unmanned air vehicle was written-off in …


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## fatman17

Attrition

Pakistan Air Force Unmanned Air VehicleSeptember 26th, 2016 This unmanned air vehicle was written-off in a crash near Mianwali. The UAV came down as a result of technical malfunction.


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## fatman17

Military Capabilities

Pakistan Air Force fighters practise landings, take-offs on highway

Farhan Bokhari, Islamabad - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

26 September 2016

The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) ordered on 22 September the closure of parts of the country's six-lane 375 km-long motorway from Islamabad to Lahore to enable its fighters to practise landings and take-offs in case of an emergency. Among the aircraft flown by the PAF were CAC/PAC JF-17 Thunders, Lockheed Martin F-16s and Dassault Mirages.

The move, which PAF officials said was part of the 'High Mark' exercise, came amid growing tensions between Pakistan and neighbouring India following the 18 September militant attack on an army base in Indian-administered Kashmir in which 19 soldiers were killed and 30 others injured.


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## fatman17




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## fatman17

Air Defence Alert

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## fatman17

No 11 sqn Griffins

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## fatman17

Sabre gate guard

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## fatman17

F16 CAPs


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## fatman17

Air Chief inaugurates Younusabad project at PAF Base Samungli


ISLAMABAD (APP): The groundbreaking ceremony of Younusabad project was held at PAF Base Samungli on Friday.

Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force (PAF) along with the chief guest, former Air Chief of PAF Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafiq Butt unveiled the plaque of the project to mark the foundation laying of Younusabad, said a PAF press release.

PAF to defend motherland as a sacred duty: Air Chief 

In consonance with the aim to set up model villages throughout the country, Rashidabad Memorial Welfare Organization (RMWO) in collaboration with PAF has launched the project with the name of Yunusabad in Baluchistan.

The project is located along the Samungli Road, Quetta close to PAF Base Samungli on an area of over 130 acres land gifted by PAF.

The project is named Yunusabad after the first Shaheed of the 1965 war, Flt Lt Yunus Hussain, Sitara-e-Jurat (SJ).

The project has been launched with an aim to eliminate illiteracy and eradicate poverty in the rural areas of Baluchistan.

PAF strongly refutes Indian claim of surgical strike in Pakistan

It will have educational, healthcare, vocational training centres and socio-economic facilities under one roof for the underprivileged and poor of the area.

The proceedings of the ceremony commenced with a briefing on the Yunusabad project given by Air Cdre Shabir Ahmed (Retd), President of RMWO.

Air Chief Marshal (Retd) Tahir Rafiq Butt, the former Chief of the Air staff of PAF was the chief guest of the ceremony.

Addressing on the occasion he said the entire nation greatly appreciates PAF’s endeavors in nation building and Yunusabad project, indeed, is a significant step in the same direction.

PAF Fighter Jet crashes, Flt Lt Omer Shehzad embraced martyrdom

He said Yunusabad is the second project by RMWO that has already set up a state-of-the-art facility at Rashidabad in rural Sindh, which is a source of pride not only for PAF but for the entire nation.

Air Chief on the occasion paid rich tribute to the supreme sacrifice rendered by Flt Lt Yunus Hussain (Shaheed), SJ during 1965 War and termed him as the role model for all the PAF airmen of today.

He said the PAF would provide firm support to Yunusabad project and ensure that the project is completed in prescribed time.

Air Chief Sohail Amman appreciates PAF Training standards

He said the aim of this project is to provide local populace with an opportunity to build a dignified future for them so that they become useful citizens of Pakistan.

He said the establishment of a modern and sophisticated school and college with health and vocational training facilities is welcome news for the area.

The event was also attended by Principal Staff Officers of PAF. Begum Flt Lt Yunus (Shaheed), was the guest of honour of the ceremony.

At the end, the Air Chief presented a memento to the chief guest and Begum Flt Lt Yunus Hussain (Shaheed), SJ.


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## fatman17

RAF Red Arrows over Karachi


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## fatman17

Red Arrows


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## fatman17

Red Arrows


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## fatman17

Pakistan orders SAR AW139s in July 2016 from LEONARDO - FINMECCANICA. This order for unknown number of helicopters was designated for the Pakistan Airforce. 

On August 4, 2016, LEONARDO - FINMECCANICA revealed an additional order for AW139 medium transport helicopters for the Pakistan Army. Once again the quantity involved is unknown. 
The AW139 has completed a series of hot - and - high trials in Pakistan. They were conducted in the central desert area of Multan where temperatures touched 49*C , and in the northern areas of the Karakoram range where it demonstrated it's hot and high capabilities successfully.


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## barbarosa

What to write in this article? the losses of high rank pilots due to old air crafts.
Please chose one of the two,
Losses of the Money or Losses of the high rank pilots.


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## Incog_nito

As IAF is for sure going for the F-16s and PAF not getting any more F-16s from US.

Will PAF consider to sell off their Block-52s and buy some Su-35s or J-31s or even Rafael/EF-2000?

I am sure PAF will used the Block-15s to their life....


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## Falcon26

Oxair Online said:


> As IAF is for sure going for the F-16s and PAF not getting any more F-16s from US.
> 
> Will PAF consider to sell off their Block-52s and buy some Su-35s or J-31s or even Rafael/EF-2000?
> 
> I am sure PAF will used the Block-15s to their life....



What if PAF bundles its Eurofighter with the Saudi order? Not only will that create commonality but also drive the PAF orders substantially lower. 

In my view, whatever route PAF takes, it has to think outside the box. This can't be done through knee-jerk reactions like procuring qualitatively lower grade weapons from China or Russia.

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## Incog_nito

I think J-20/J-31 is almost done and will be coming to PAF after 2020 to replace aging F-16s. Moreover, we need to procure something like SU-35s or invest that amount in Turkish program - mean while JF-17s should be procured with Turkish-Local-Chinese mix of avionics and weapons.

I think PAF should procure about 250 JF-17s - while PN might go for 100 JF-17s.


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## Windjammer

*
Cake fit for a King.

A special cake arranged by PAF Base Commander, Masroor on the Retirement Ceremony of Air Vice Marshal Zaheer.*

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## TaimiKhan

Windjammer said:


> *
> Cake fit for a King.
> 
> A special cake arranged by PAF Base Commander, Masroor on the Retirement Ceremony of Air Vice Marshal Zaheer.*
> 
> View attachment 345716



Amazing cake. Excellent.


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## Avicenna

Delicious looking cake!


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## fatman17

Nigerian Air Force signs deal to purchase Super Mushshak aircraft from Pakistan
0

24 October 2016

The Nigerian Air Force (NAF) has reportedly signed a deal to purchase ten Super Mushshak aircraft from Pakistan.

The deal is in line with the NAF's plans to purchase up to 20 JF-17s from Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) at a cost of $25m, and Super Mushshak basic trainers at $10.2m, IANS Pakistan reported.

The Pakistan Air Force was quoted by media sources as saying: "This contract would not only open new avenues for export of aviation equipment to foreign countries but also help in generating revenue for the country.

"The deal further strengthens PAC's status as a world class aviation industry producing the supersonic JF-17 Thunder and Super Mushshak trainer aircraft.”

The contract also requires Pakistan to provide operational training and technical support and assistance to the NAF.

PAC's MFI-395 Super Mushshak is a military trainer / light attack aircraft derived from the MFI-17 Mushshak trainer aircraft.

Designed to provide primary flight training to pilots, Super Mushshak is equipped with a blind screen, which allows the aircraft to carry out instrument flying missions.

"The glass cockpit of the aircraft has enough space to accommodate two flight crew members, a student pilot and a flight instructor."
The glass cockpit of the aircraft has enough space to accommodate two flight crew members, a student pilot and a flight instructor.

The aircraft is fitted with two integral fuel tanks with a capacity to carry 47 gallons of fuel.

Super Mushshak is currently in service with Saudi Arabia, Oman, Iran and South Africa.

Image: The Super Mushshak on display at the IDEAS 2008 defence exhibition in Pakistan. Photo: courtesy of Paki90.


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## fatman17

Africa

Nigeria is moving ahead with its acquisition of the Super Mushshak trainer aircraft having signed an agreement with Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) last week. Ten trainers valued at $10.2 million have been allocated by the government’s 2016 budget and the deal will include technical support as well as training of personnel in Nigeria. Having already sold the Super Mushshak to Saudi Arabia, Oman, and Iran and with deals in the pipeline with the Qatari and the Turkish Air Forces, PAC is also targeting several other African nations to add to its sales tally.

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## Windjammer

Whispering Death,
PAF Drone operator.

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## TOPGUN

That's hell of a cool hat 



Windjammer said:


> Whispering Death,
> PAF Drone operator.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [


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## fatman17

PL-10

A dummy PL-10 AAM was lowered outside the side weapon bay onboard the J-20 #2002 prototype. PL-10 (K/AKK-10?) is the new generation IIR-guided missile in the same class of AIM-9X, ASRAAM, A-Darter, AAM-5 and IRIS-T. It features an IIR seeker (containing a 128x128 focal plane array?) and TVC, plus a 90° off-boresight angle and 50g max load. When coupled with HMD worn by the pilot, the missile possesses an excellent IRCCM capability against modernfighter aircraft maneuvering at high-gs. It also has a "lock-after-launch" capability, which could extend its range to BVR. Similar to AAM-5 and IRIS-T, the latest design (circa 2013) features 4 enlarged tail stabilizing fins plus 4 narrow stabilizing strips attached to the mid-section of the missile body, which help maintain missile's maneuverability at the terminal stage after the solid motor stops working. PL-10 has a length of 3m, weight 89kg and range >20km. The development of PL-10 started in 2005 and a test round was launched from the ground in November 2008. The development was thought to be a success after the missile was test-fired from a CFTE J-11B in 2010, and subsequently it entered the initial production in 2012. PL-10 is expected to be carried by J-10B/C, J-11D and J-16 fighter bomber as well as internally by J-20 and FC-31 stealth fighters which are still under development. A recent rumor (September 2015) claimed that a PL-10 was test-fired successfully from a J-10C. PL-10 will be offered for export as PL-10E at the 2016 Zhuhai Airshow.

- Last Updated 10/28/16

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## fatman17

Is it time to revisit the J10C


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## fatman17

Zhuhai 2016


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## litman

Windjammer said:


> *Cake fit for a King.
> 
> A special cake arranged by PAF Base Commander, Masroor on the Retirement Ceremony of Air Vice Marshal Zaheer.*
> 
> View attachment 345716


so this is the new style of doing "naukri" in PAF?

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## Incog_nito

Heard that PAF is looking to shift it's airbase from Masroor to a new one and may be Faisal Air base will also move. It has been said that Masroor will be utilize for commericial housing scheme and Faisal may be converted into military barracks. But I have question that where this new air base will be made? I have a thought that it would be near KANNUP?


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## SQ8

Oxair Online said:


> Heard that PAF is looking to shift it's airbase from Masroor to a new one and may be Faisal Air base will also move. It has been said that Masroor will be utilize for commericial housing scheme and Faisal may be converted into military barracks. But I have question that where this new air base will be made? I have a thought that it would be near KANNUP?


Moving airbases is a very expensive and long drawn process. As such Masroor is at a key strategic position but there are few needs to move it other than its proximity to a civilian populous (_and the danger of bird strikes due to trash and terrorism_). 

However, Faisal/Mehran need to be moved out of the location. The PN needs to relocate its air assets to Ormara as the idea is to make it the main Naval base in the first place. The PAF can relocate the logistics to Masroor.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

The only new main operating base under construction in Sindh is PAF Bholari, which is way too inland for Masroor's maritime fighter operations. 

That said, I agree that a new maritime air base is necessary. We're not just stationing multirole fighter assets in the vicinity, but MPA, AEW&C and potentially AARs too.

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## fatman17

Middle East & North Africa

Qatar has been linked to the possible purchase of more JF-17fighter and Super Mushshak trainer aircraft following the release of a statement from Pakistan Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif’s office. Mr. Sharif’s office also wishes to set up military cooperation and production of equipment in Qatar with the assistance of Pakistan and Turkey. He went on to say that Pakistan, Qatar, and Turkey can set up joint ventures for undertaking defence related manufacturing of military equipment. “Our relationship with Qatar means a lot to us and you can count on Pakistan as your closest ally and brotherly state,” he remarked


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## fatman17

There is talk of expanding the existing ormara civil airport into a military airbase for the PAF, but it all depends on the availability of funds and lots of it at that.

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## Rocky rock

Is there any new base under construction except PAF Base Bholari?


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## fatman17



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## khanasifm

If you check google every civilian airport or most of them has facility for PAF min. flight of 8 or full strength sqn, there are more airfields then most maps show for PAF to operate from plus high ways,


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## fatman17

The Block II variant is expected to be followed by the Block III, which might feature a more powerful engine (WS-13B?), a new AESA radar developed by NETRI/14th Institute(KLJ-7A, range 170km, track 15, engage 4), IRST, HMD, full authority digital FBW and additional types of weapons. A tandem-seat trainer version (JF-17B) was first unveiled at the 2013 Paris Airshow by CATIC, whichfeatures an IFR probe. JF-17B is expected to fly by the end of 2016.

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## fatman17




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## fatman17

PAF JF-17 Thunder Displayed at Airshow China 2016

Tue Nov 01, 2016 3:58 pm

Pakistan Air Force (PAF) JF-17 Thunder (serial number 12-139) multi-role combat aircraft of No. 2 "Minhas" Squadron on static display at Airshow China 2016 (airshow.com.cn) in Zhuhai.


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## fatman17

Pakistan Air force’s drone crashes in Sargodha

29-Oct-16

SARGODHA: Pakistan Air Force’s (PAF) unmanned drone crashed in Sargodha on Saturday.

The drone was on a routine flight when it crashed in Otiahan area due to some technical problem and according to the reports, the unmanned aircraft went down in the fields.

Police and rescue teams rushed to the scene soon after the drone crash. No loss of life was reported.


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## fatman17

Military Aircraft to Turkey

Pakistan will export 100 MFI-395 Super Mushshak military training aircraft to Turkey, a senior Pakistani officer says.

By Franz-Stefan Gady

October 06, 2016

The chairman of the Pakistani Senate’s Standing Committee on Defense, retired Lieutenant General Abdul Qayyum, announced on October 4 that Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) will export 100 MFI-395 Super Mushshak military training aircraft to Turkey, according to local media reports.

In 2013, the Turkish Air Force (TAF) announced a requirement for 52 military training aircraft to replace its aging fleet of Italian-made Leonardo light trainers. The deal, once signed, would be PAC’s largest export order in its history. PAC won the competitive bidding process in July 2016.

The Pakistan Ministry of Defense Production and Turkey are currently locked in negotiations and still have not concluded a contract. It is unclear whether the contract will be for 52 or 100 aircraft. It is also uncertain whether other entities in Turkey, besides the TAF, are in need of additional military training aircraft.

Enjoying this article? Click here to subscribe for full access. Just $5 a month.

The MFI-395 Super Mushshak is a PAC licence-built variant of the Saab MFI-17 Supporter aircraft, which Pakistan acquired from Sweden in the 1980s. In comparison to its Swedish predecessor, the upgraded MFI-395 variant features a new engine and a new flight control system, among other things.

Fitted with six hardpoints under the wing pylons, the aircraft can be armed with rockets and missiles. The MFI-395 entered service in 2001. The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is currently operating around 300 Super Mushaks at various training facilities. Other customers of the MFI-395 include Iran, Iraq, Oman, and Saudi Arabia.


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## fatman17

Pakistan’s strategic defence relationship with China: A new regional power play

Pakistan’s strategic defence relationship with China: A new regional power play

25 October 2016, 10:00

RUSI Whitehall

Air Marshal Shahid Latif will speak at RUSI on the ever growing ties between China and Pakistan and what this means for the region.

As China’s presence in Pakistan grows through the China Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC), their strengthened military ties are coming into the spotlight. This is a security relationship that flows at multiple levels, from hard security of nationals on the ground building projects to joint military research and construction projects.

As a leader intimately involved in the China-Pakistan security relationship from the ground up for many years, former Vice Chief of Air Staff of the Pakistan Air Force, Air Marshal (rtd) Shahid Latif has worked on the Sino-Pakistani security relationship since the signing of the Strategic Defence Pact with China and will explore the regional implications of this relationship.

Speaker Biography

Air Marshal Shahid Latif joined the PAF in 1971 and commissioned in 1974. Latif was the first pilot to ferry the F-16 from USA to Pakistan in 1982, and formed part of the pioneer team for training pilots in Pakistan on the F-16 weapon system. He flew numerous combat missions at the height of the Afghan war in the 1980s. On being promoted to the rank of Air Vice Marshal, he took over the JF-17 project and served for five years as Chief Project Director. The completion of this fighter aircraft in less than three years is a record in recent aircraft development history. The JF-17 entered into the PAF in 2007 and is now replacing all aircraft on the PAF inventory as existing F-16s reach the end of service. On completion, Shahid was promoted to the rank of Air Marshal and appointed as the Deputy Chief of Air Staff (Operations) and from 2006 served as Vice Chief of the Air Staff.

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## fatman17

Nigeria moving ahead with Super Mushshak acquisition

by defenceWeb, October 25, 10:00 am

The Nigerian Air Force (NAF) has signed an agreement with Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) for the acquisition of ten Super Mushshak trainer aircraft.


"The contract signing ceremony was held at Abuja where Air Vice Marshal Iya Ahmed Abdullahi and Air Marshal Arshad Malik, Chairman of the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), signed the contract," Pakistan Air Force (PAF) spokesman Syed Mohammad Ali said on 21 October.

"This contract would not only open new avenues for export of aviation equipment to foreign countries but also help in generating revenue for the country," a Pakistan Air Force statement said. 

The contract signed with Nigeria includes training and technical support. It is understood that Pakistani pilots will train personnel in Nigeria. Earlier this year Nigerian Air Force Chief of Staff Air Marshal Sadique Baba Abubakar said the Air Force had expanded one of its facilities to accommodate the new aircraft, which will be used for pilot training.

Nigeria has ten pilots undergoing training in the United Kingdom and another ten in South Africa while eight fighter and helicopter pilots are being trained at the International Aviation College in Ilorin, Nigeria. 

The Super Mushshak is a more advanced, upgraded and modernised variant of the MFI-17 Mushshak basic trainer (itself a development of the Saab Supporter). The two/three seat Super Mushshak is equipped with an advanced glass cockpit, allowing it to be flown in all weather conditions. Although its docile handling characteristics and side-by-side seating make it an excellent ab-initio training aircraft, it is also capable of caring weapons and cameras. Equipped with a 260 hp Lycoming piston engine, the aircraft is simple to operate and maintain. It is also certified for aerobatics and visitors to AAD will see the aircraft perform close to its positive 6g and negative 3g limits.

The PAF has a 120 Super Mushshak aircraft in service, with the Pakistani Army having an even larger inventory, with 220 aircraft used for logistic and transport missions.

The aircraft is already in service in Saudi Arabia, Oman and Iran. Qatar and the Turkish Air Forces have also signed deals with PAC to buy the aircraft this year. The PAC is looking at two or three other African countries to add to this list of recent sales.

Not only has Nigeria purchased the Super Mushshak, but the NAF is also preparing to induct three JF-17 Thunder multi-role light fighters. Nigeria plans to order up to 20 JF-17s from Pakistan Aeronautical Complex.

According to Nigeria's 2016 budget which President Muhammadu Buhari presented to a joint session of the National Assembly in December 2015, the Nigerian Air Force aims to acquire three JF-17s this year, and has budgeted $25 million towards this. $10.2 million was allocated for 10 Super Mushshak basic trainers, and $56 million for two Mi-35M helicopters.

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## fatman17



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## fatman17

C4iSR: Air

Airshow China 2016: AVIC showcases YINGS III airborne targeting pod family

Kelvin Wong, Zhuhai, China - IHS Jane's International Defence Review

04 November 2016

Chinese defence prime Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) is showcasing its latest YINGS III range of day and night capable airborne targeting pods at the Airshow China 2016 exhibition, which is being held in the southern city of Zhuhai from 1-6 November.

AVIC unveiled a full-sized mock up of the YINGS III model 330 airborne targeting pod at Airshow China 2016. (IHS/Kelvin Wong)

The YINGS III - which stands for Ying Sun III (Hawk III) - targeting pods are developed and manufactured by the company's Luoyang Electro-Optical Equipment Research Institute located in the central province of Henan, with the product portfolio presently comprising three variants with diameters of 330 mm (Model 330), 360 mm (Model 360), and 390 mm (Model 390).

According to AVIC, the YINGS III family adopts a modular architecture to enable the pods to be customised to suit a particular customer's mission requirements, although it can be fitted to most combat aircraft, bomber, and training platforms. A laser rangefinder/designator is a standard feature across all models and configurations, although the pods can be delivered with a high definition daylight CCD TV camera, a infrared (IR) sensor, or a combination of both.

"The YINGS III is a fully indigenous design and we are continually updating the family with our latest technologies," Zhao Jiuming, senior business manager and head of the institute's co-operation section, told IHS Jane's. "For example, the Model 330 shown for the first time here is designed for the latest generation of attack or multirole aircraft."

The latest entry to the YINGS III family is the Model 330, which weighs 230 kg and appears to draw heavily from Lockheed Martin AN/AAQ-33 Sniper advanced targeting pod (ATP) with its swept/faceted transparent sapphire fixed-shroud nose configuration and lightweight, aerodynamic structure which is designed to improve stability at high speed flight.

The YINGS III Model 390 airborne targeting pod has already entered service with the People's Liberation Army Air Force as well as at least one export customer. Seen here is a Model 390 pod at the Pakistan Air Force's JF-17 display. (IHS/Kelvin Wong)

AVIC states that the Model 330 provides a medium/narrow range field of view (FoV) of 3.6° x 2.7° and 1.2° x 0.9° respectively for the CCD TV camera while the IR sensor offers a FoV of 3.6° x 2.7° and 1.2° x 0.9°.

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## fatman17

Air Platforms

Heavily armed CASC CH-5 UAV makes public debut

Kelvin Wong, Zhuhai, China - IHS Jane's International Defence Review

07 November 2016

CASC showcased its latest CH-5 with four AR-1 and four AR-2 guided anti-armour weapons as underwing stores on each wing at Airshow China 2016, giving it an impressive 16-missile arsenal. Source: IHS/Kelvin Wong

Key PointsCASC has showcased its latest and most capable armed reconnaissance UAVDesignated the CH-5, the air vehicle is the company's largest unmanned platform to date, and can carry as many as 16 air-to-ground weapons

China Aerospace Science and Technology Corporation (CASC) used Airshow China 2016, held in Zhuhai from 1-6 November, to show a prototype of its Cai Hong 5 (Rainbow 5, or CH-5) strike-capable unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) to the public for the first time since its maiden flight in August 2015.

According to the latest specifications briefed to IHS Jane'sby a senior CASC official on 6 November, the medium-altitude long-endurance (MALE) CH-5 features a lightweight all-composite airframe structure that is 11 m long and has a wingspan of 21 m. The air vehicle has a maximum take-off weight (MTOW) of 3,300 kg and can carry a 1,200 kg payload, with an internal mission bay capacity of 200 kg and the remainder provisioned for underwing stores.

CASC has specified an operating range of up to 250 km via line-of-sight datalink, although this can be extended to 2,000 km when satellite communication (SATCOM) protocols are employed. It is also capable of autonomous flight using pre-programmed waypoint navigation, with taxiing, take-off, and landing manoeuvres also fully automated.

While the senior official cannot be identified due to strict media engagement policies, he nevertheless revealed that the CH-5 is equipped with a 330 hp heavy-fuel engine (HFE) that provides it with an operating endurance of up to 60 hours with high reliability, although this can be substituted with a 300 hp gasoline engine that offers up to 39 hours of endurance. Yan added that the HFE option enables the CH-5 to achieve a loiter speed of 180-220 km/h and a maximum speed in excess of 300 km/h, with a service ceiling of 30,000 ft (7,000 m).

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## fatman17

Air Platforms

AVIC unveils Wing Loong II armed reconnaissance UAV

Kelvin Wong, Zhuhai, China - IHS Jane's International Defence Review

07 November 2016

AVIC unveiled a 'production-spec' version of the Wing Loong II strike-capable surveillance UAV for the first time in public since its soft launch at the Beijing Airshow in 2015. Source: IHS/Kelvin Wong

Chinese defence prime Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) has unveiled its next-generation Wing Loong II strike-capable reconnaissance unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) at the Airshow China 2016 exhibition, held in Zhuhai from 1-6 November.

Developed by its Chengdu Aircraft Corporation (CAC) business unit, which is also responsible for building the J-20 next-generation multirole fighter for the People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF), the existence of the Wing Loong II was first unveiled in company literature at the 2015 Beijing Air Show. However, the company took the opportunity to debut a "production ready" version of the air vehicle along with an array of compatible UAV-launched weapons in Zhuhai.

The Wing Loong II bears a strong resemblance to the General Atomics Aeronautical Systems Inc MQ-9 Reaper UAV, with its low-wing monoplane slender fuselage and empennage with a prominent V-tail and ventral fin. Like its US-made counterpart, each wing incorporates three underwing hardpoints for external stores.

IHS Jane's understands from AVIC that the UAV is constructed from advanced composites, with the latest official literature quoting an overall length of 11 m, a wingspan of 20.5 m, and a height of 4.1 m. This closely matches the Reaper's dimensions of 10.97 m (length), 20.12 m (wingspan), and 3.81 m (height).

However, despite being almost identical in appearance and size, the Wing Loong II falls short in terms of overall flight performance with a stated maximum speed of 370 km/h and service ceiling of 30,000 ft (9,000 m) compared with Reaper's 444 km/h and 50,000 ft. This is likely a result of the Chinese defence industry's documented deficiencies in aerospace propulsion technologies, forcing manufacturers to import foreign engines or rely on less capable indigenous systems.

The Wing Loong II nevertheless improves on the first-generation Wing Loong I platform with twice the payload capacity at 400 kg and significantly improved endurance of 32 hours.

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## khanasifm




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## fatman17

Dubai 2013

November 9/16: Head of the Saudi Royal Air Force, Gen. Muhammad bin Saleh Al Qtaibi, has expressed his country’s interest in purchasing Pakistani aircraft. Al Qtaibi is on an official visit to Pakistan to discuss ongoing security issues in the region, but expressed Saudi intentions towards a hefty procurement of JF-17 Thunder multi-role fighters and Super Mushshak trainers. The Saudis already operate approximately 20 Super Mushshaks but the prospect of a significant export order for JF-17s from the Gulf kingdom adds to the fighter’s growing interest abroad.


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## Army research

Hey could it better Arab countries recent interest in jf17 is that block 3 is planned to have data link and common parts or any thing with the tfx so since they will not be receiving f35 ??


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## TOPGUN

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 350160
> View attachment 350161
> View attachment 350162
> Air Platforms
> 
> Heavily armed CASC CH-5 UAV makes public debut
> 
> Kelvin Wong, Zhuhai, China - IHS Jane's International Defence Review
> 
> 07 November 2016
> 
> CASC showcased its latest CH-5 with four AR-1 and four AR-2 guided anti-armour weapons as underwing stores on each wing at Airshow China 2016, giving it an impressive 16-missile arsenal. Source: IHS/Kelvin Wong
> 
> Key PointsCASC has showcased its latest and most capable armed reconnaissance UAVDesignated the CH-5, the air vehicle is the company's largest unmanned platform to date, and can carry as many as 16 air-to-ground weapons
> 
> China Aerospace Science and Technology Corporation (CASC) used Airshow China 2016, held in Zhuhai from 1-6 November, to show a prototype of its Cai Hong 5 (Rainbow 5, or CH-5) strike-capable unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) to the public for the first time since its maiden flight in August 2015.
> 
> According to the latest specifications briefed to IHS Jane'sby a senior CASC official on 6 November, the medium-altitude long-endurance (MALE) CH-5 features a lightweight all-composite airframe structure that is 11 m long and has a wingspan of 21 m. The air vehicle has a maximum take-off weight (MTOW) of 3,300 kg and can carry a 1,200 kg payload, with an internal mission bay capacity of 200 kg and the remainder provisioned for underwing stores.
> 
> CASC has specified an operating range of up to 250 km via line-of-sight datalink, although this can be extended to 2,000 km when satellite communication (SATCOM) protocols are employed. It is also capable of autonomous flight using pre-programmed waypoint navigation, with taxiing, take-off, and landing manoeuvres also fully automated.
> 
> While the senior official cannot be identified due to strict media engagement policies, he nevertheless revealed that the CH-5 is equipped with a 330 hp heavy-fuel engine (HFE) that provides it with an operating endurance of up to 60 hours with high reliability, although this can be substituted with a 300 hp gasoline engine that offers up to 39 hours of endurance. Yan added that the HFE option enables the CH-5 to achieve a loiter speed of 180-220 km/h and a maximum speed in excess of 300 km/h, with a service ceiling of 30,000 ft (7,000 m).




Are we interested in these 2 birds ?



fatman17 said:


> View attachment 350163
> Air Platforms
> 
> AVIC unveils Wing Loong II armed reconnaissance UAV
> 
> Kelvin Wong, Zhuhai, China - IHS Jane's International Defence Review
> 
> 07 November 2016
> 
> AVIC unveiled a 'production-spec' version of the Wing Loong II strike-capable surveillance UAV for the first time in public since its soft launch at the Beijing Airshow in 2015. Source: IHS/Kelvin Wong
> 
> Chinese defence prime Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) has unveiled its next-generation Wing Loong II strike-capable reconnaissance unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) at the Airshow China 2016 exhibition, held in Zhuhai from 1-6 November.
> 
> Developed by its Chengdu Aircraft Corporation (CAC) business unit, which is also responsible for building the J-20 next-generation multirole fighter for the People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF), the existence of the Wing Loong II was first unveiled in company literature at the 2015 Beijing Air Show. However, the company took the opportunity to debut a "production ready" version of the air vehicle along with an array of compatible UAV-launched weapons in Zhuhai.
> 
> The Wing Loong II bears a strong resemblance to the General Atomics Aeronautical Systems Inc MQ-9 Reaper UAV, with its low-wing monoplane slender fuselage and empennage with a prominent V-tail and ventral fin. Like its US-made counterpart, each wing incorporates three underwing hardpoints for external stores.
> 
> IHS Jane's understands from AVIC that the UAV is constructed from advanced composites, with the latest official literature quoting an overall length of 11 m, a wingspan of 20.5 m, and a height of 4.1 m. This closely matches the Reaper's dimensions of 10.97 m (length), 20.12 m (wingspan), and 3.81 m (height).
> 
> However, despite being almost identical in appearance and size, the Wing Loong II falls short in terms of overall flight performance with a stated maximum speed of 370 km/h and service ceiling of 30,000 ft (9,000 m) compared with Reaper's 444 km/h and 50,000 ft. This is likely a result of the Chinese defence industry's documented deficiencies in aerospace propulsion technologies, forcing manufacturers to import foreign engines or rely on less capable indigenous systems.
> 
> 
> 
> The Wing Loong II nevertheless improves on the first-generation Wing Loong I platform with twice the payload capacity at 400 kg and significantly improved endurance of 32 hours.


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## fatman17

The latest report (November 2016)suggested that 611 Institute is developing a semi-stealth version of FC-1 / JF17 to boost its export potential. The aircraft might have certain stealth features such as a redesigned stealth nose with a one-piece F-22 style canopy.
- Last Updated 11/12/16

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## khanasifm

fatman17 said:


> The latest report (November 2016)suggested that 611 Institute is developing a semi-stealth version of FC-1 / JF17 to boost its export potential. The aircraft might have certain stealth features such as a redesigned stealth nose with a one-piece F-22 style canopy.
> - Last Updated 11/12/16




What report??


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## fatman17

khanasifm said:


> What report??



Chinese media


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## aftab_s81

The 'report' w/o sourse is a bluff.


fatman17 said:


> Chinese media


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## fatman17

The latest rumor (April 2016) suggested that 611 is developing another upgraded variant (J-10D?) which might feature CFTs to increase its range as well as a more powerful WS-10IPE (14t class?) turbofan engine with a stealth nozzle to reduce its radar and IR signatures.

- Last Updated 11/13/16

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## Talon

khanasifm said:


> 17 Sqn PG at Masroor??? ADA @ 55:11 min or they just put a shot of them
> One of the new pilot had 17 sqn bade who was new to Masroor in the Mess, looks like 17 moved in to Masroor not sure if for good or temp


They moved there temporarily...should be back to Samungli by now


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## Sadia Saeed

Thanks for Information's


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## muhammadali233

khanasifm said:


> View attachment 350351
> View attachment 350352
> 
> 
> View attachment 350353


stable photos would be nice.


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## fatman17

JF-17 Thunder: Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) has said it will open up to allow the private defense sector to participate in programs such as the JF-17 Thunder fighter and Super Mushshak trainer. As well as looking for new design and development programs for upgrades to the aircraft, PAC is also entertaining the possibility of allowing collaboration on the manufacture of propulsion and industrial gas turbines. Benefits of opening up the domestic industry include using public funds that otherwise would have gone abroad as domestic stimulus and making it easier for foreign vendors to pick private firms in matters involving sensitive technology intellectual property, which could make transfer-of-technology and expertise easier to negotiate.

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## fatman17

Just a nice pic

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## fatman17

*PAF holds seminar titled ‘Air Power Application in Modern Era’*

Islamabad
November 10, 2016 BY INP




A two-day International Seminar on Air Power (ISAP) with a theme ‘Air Power Application in Modern Era’ commenced under the auspices of Pakistan Air Force (PAF) at Nur Khan Auditorium Air Headquarters Islamabad on Thursday.

Chief of the Air Staff PAF Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman attended the opening session of the seminar. PAF’s former air chiefs, senior serving and retired PAF officers, Pakistan-based, foreign defence/air attaches and notables from various educational institutions attended the seminar.

Speakers and observers from different allied countries and PAF shared their views in the seminar on contemporary issues related to air power.

While delivering the inaugural address on the occasion, the air chief said, “The air power today enjoys credibility and importance more than any other time in its history. This glorious position owes much to the breathtaking pace of technology advance. The air power, irrespective of the type of the conflict and place of conflict, tends to accomplish the given set of objectives with the efficiency, economy and more importantly, without exposure of large number of ground forces to the enemy fire.

The main challenge for the air power is to continue to adjust to its ever expanding role in the security of a nation. The spectrum of conflict is constantly expanding, and being exploited most optimally by enemies who belong to both traditional and non-traditional categories.

The air power with its basic characteristics emerges as the best option in the most areas of the spectrum. Its unique attributes and capabilities provide a wide range of opportunities for application in all forms of warfare.

Speakers from allied Air Forces of Turkey, Italy, Australia, Nigeria, UK, USA, China, France, South Africa and Jordan delivered lectures and presentations during the ISAP.

The fundamental purpose of the interactive forum of ISAP is to provide opportunities to the participants about mutual learning, awareness and understanding of defence issues and especially the use of air power in irregular warfare.

The seminar would offer an excellent opportunity to augment diplomatic relations, military ties and cooperation between allied countries.

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## fatman17

Just a nice pic

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## nomi007




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## niaz

nomi007 said:


> View attachment 354105



Even if we assume Turkey to be in Europe; China, Japan, South Korea and India are ahead of Pakistan in the aviation field. We are No. 5 in Asia.

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## syed_yusuf

niaz said:


> Even we assume Turkey to be in Europe; China, Japan, South Korea and India are ahead of Pakistan in the aviation field. We are No. 5 in Asia.



What about Israel and Indonesia ? did y u forget them.


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## niaz

syed_yusuf said:


> What about Israel and Indonesia ? did y u forget them.



I consider Israel an Occidental country. IMO Indonesia is at par with Pakistan. Whereas the post in Urdu in the opening line declares that we are No 2 in Asia.


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## Tank131

In what world is Indonesia at the level of PAF? They have 16 Su-30mkk-1and 36 F-16s (A/B/C/D block15OCU and Block 52) and 15 T-50. Numbers alone done allow it to be equivalent to PAF

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Tank131 said:


> In what world is Indonesia at the level of PAF? They have 16 Su-30mkk-1and 36 F-16s (A/B/C/D block15OCU and Block 52) and 15 T-50. Numbers alone done allow it to be equivalent to PAF


I think they were referring to the aviation industry. Indonesia did get in on the local manufacturing scene earlier via the CN-235, but they're real fixed-wing fighter push is the KFX. Still many years out before it comes to fruition, but with a near $1.5b investment up front, could be feeding into their expertise pool quite well.

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## mrrehan

fatman17 said:


> News Asia-Pacific:
> 
> 1. Thailand to buy 12 JAS-39C/D Gripens and 2 Saab Eri-eye AEW systems for US 1.08 Billion. Gripens will replace the ageing F-5E/Fs of the RTAF. the Lockheed-Martin F-16 and the Sukhoi SU-30 were also short-listed before settling on the Gripen.
> 
> 2. More details emerge on secretive chinese WZ-10 attack helicopter:
> powered by two 1,531 shp P&WC PT6C-67C turbo shaft engines with Full Authority Digital Engine Control(FADEC). although some sources suggest that up to eight trials WZ-10s may now have been built, only three flying prototypes have been confirmed. (Z10-01, 02 and 03). maiden flights on April 23, 2003. in 2001 China asked Denal to purchase one helicopter (Rooivalk) suggesting it was to be used for reverse engineering and therefore the sales was blocked.weapons planned for the WZ-10 appear to be largely indigeneous like the new HJ-10 ATGM and older TY-90 SRAAMs.
> 
> 3.India finalises plans for 40 more SU-30MKIs:
> clearence has been given for the US $ 1.6 Billion deal to purchase 40 SU-30MKIs from Russia for the IAF. the additional 40 SU-30MKIs will give the IAF a fleet of 230 SU-30MKIs. the indian govt has asked HAL to complete the delivery of these aircraft by 2013-14 instead of the originally planned 2016-17
> 
> 4. HAL to upgrade IN Sea-Kings:
> clearence has been given to upgrade 18 of the IN Seaking 42/42B ASW helicopters under a $ 200 mill programme. IN originally purchased 43 Seakings but were grounded due to sanctions imposed after the 1998 nuclear tests.
> 
> 5. Pakistan takes over Bell 412EPs:
> 
> already reported in land forces section.



Thanks for info sir


----------



## khanasifm

PIA has a fleet of 38 narrow-body and wide-body Airbus and Boeing jets, Ahmed said, with three A310s to be retired on Dec. 31.

May be 12 sqn pi k them up if there is some.life left ???


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## mrrehan

niaz said:


> Even if we assume Turkey to be in Europe; China, Japan, South Korea and India are ahead of Pakistan in the aviation field. We are No. 5 in Asia.



We have experience of designing, modifying and making 3 aircraft now where drones are a separate chapter as well as the rebuilding various aircraft . Can you please point out the development of Indian aviation in the same times pane and if you could tell us what they have achieve in aviation that still we are unable to.


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## niaz

mrrehan said:


> We have experience of designing, modifying and making 3 aircraft now where drones are a separate chapter as well as the rebuilding various aircraft . Can you please point out the development of Indian aviation in the same times pane and if you could tell us what they have achieve in aviation that still we are unable to.




Hon sir,

I am not Indian nor am I mouth piece of Indian aviation industry. However, having retired for the last 7 years, I do surf and read a lot. I am also a realist and do not believe in underestimating my enemies. I believe India is far ahead of Pakistan in aviation, space & rocket technology because::

First Indian made trainer Marut flew in 1961. India had started assembling Mig -21’s during the 1960’s. India launched her first satellite “Aryabhata” in April 1975. Indian made helicopter Dhruv was flying in 1992 and Indian aero engine Kaveri has been in production since 1996.

For a cursory read suggest the following links:

https://honeywell.com/country/in/About/Pages/Aero_India.aspx

http://www.aviation-defence-univers...-launches-indias-weather-satellite-insat-3dr/

http://www.indiastrategic.in/India_...ch_Vehicle-Technology_Demonstrator_RLV-TD.htm

http://www.sciencealert.com/india-just-broke-a-record-by-launching-20-satellites-in-one-mission

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-11-01/why-america-needs-india-s-rockets

http://www.army-technology.com/feat...an-cooperation-in-defence-technology-4872830/

https://sputniknews.com/military/201607011042280477-india-aircraft-video/


However, should you still insist on believing that Pakistan in No.2 in Asia in the aviation field; I for one am not going to stop you.

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## mrrehan

niaz said:


> Hon sir,
> 
> I am not Indian nor am I mouth piece of Indian aviation industry. However, having retired for the last 7 years, I do surf and read a lot. I am also a realist and do not believe in underestimating my enemies. I believe India is far ahead of Pakistan in aviation, space & rocket technology because::
> 
> First Indian made trainer Marut flew in 1961. India had started assembling Mig -21’s during the 1960’s. India launched her first satellite “Aryabhata” in April 1975. Indian made helicopter Dhruv was flying in 1992 and Indian aero engine Kaveri has been in production since 1996.
> 
> For a cursory read suggest the following links:
> 
> https://honeywell.com/country/in/About/Pages/Aero_India.aspx
> 
> http://www.aviation-defence-univers...-launches-indias-weather-satellite-insat-3dr/
> 
> http://www.indiastrategic.in/India_...ch_Vehicle-Technology_Demonstrator_RLV-TD.htm
> 
> http://www.sciencealert.com/india-just-broke-a-record-by-launching-20-satellites-in-one-mission
> 
> https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-11-01/why-america-needs-india-s-rockets
> 
> http://www.army-technology.com/feat...an-cooperation-in-defence-technology-4872830/
> 
> https://sputniknews.com/military/201607011042280477-india-aircraft-video/
> 
> 
> However, should you still insist on believing that Pakistan in No.2 in Asia in the aviation field; I for one am not going to stop you.





niaz said:


> Hon sir,
> 
> I am not Indian nor am I mouth piece of Indian aviation industry. However, having retired for the last 7 years, I do surf and read a lot. I am also a realist and do not believe in underestimating my enemies. I believe India is far ahead of Pakistan in aviation, space & rocket technology because::
> 
> First Indian made trainer Marut flew in 1961. India had started assembling Mig -21’s during the 1960’s. India launched her first satellite “Aryabhata” in April 1975. Indian made helicopter Dhruv was flying in 1992 and Indian aero engine Kaveri has been in production since 1996.
> 
> For a cursory read suggest the following links:
> 
> https://honeywell.com/country/in/About/Pages/Aero_India.aspx
> 
> http://www.aviation-defence-univers...-launches-indias-weather-satellite-insat-3dr/
> 
> http://www.indiastrategic.in/India_...ch_Vehicle-Technology_Demonstrator_RLV-TD.htm
> 
> http://www.sciencealert.com/india-just-broke-a-record-by-launching-20-satellites-in-one-mission
> 
> https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-11-01/why-america-needs-india-s-rockets
> 
> http://www.army-technology.com/feat...an-cooperation-in-defence-technology-4872830/
> 
> https://sputniknews.com/military/201607011042280477-india-aircraft-video/
> 
> 
> However, should you still insist on believing that Pakistan in No.2 in Asia in the aviation field; I for one am not going to stop you.



Sorry if I hurt you in any way. First thing first sir I didn't write you Indian.

Marut took first flight on 17 June 1961 was designed by the German aircraft designer "Kurt Tank" Indian's were with him. total production 147. The air craft retire in 1985. But what after that no sale made to international buyers and even Indians dump everything, money is wasted on infrastructure. Even their HAL Tejas except few things of their own all the main components are off the shelf solutions like e.g avionics and engine. No need to mention how much time the experience Indians took to actually build the aircraft. 

India started assembling Mig-21’s during the 1960’s. Pakistan started Mirage Rebuild Factory established in 1974. We did it and still using it not the case of Mig-21 and india.

Aryabhata was launched by India on 19 April 1975 use Russians help for launching. Pakistan Launch Badr-1 by SUPARCO in 16 July 1990 use Chinese help for launching. Again we did it when we feel we should do it.

The development of the Dhruv, and it was subsequently designed with assistance from Germany. Messerschmitt-Bölkow-Blohm (MBB) were contracted in July 1984 as a design consultant and collaborative partner on the programme. so Germany (again). 

Kaveri started in 1986, programme failed to satisfy the necessary technical requirements or keep up with its envisaged timelines and was officially delinked from the Tejas programme in September 2008. Still it's not airworthy.

Sir all of this called "Indi-genius" not indigenous.

Resources wise you can't compare Indian and Pakistan we in Pakistan are quite capable of doing what we need to or have to. Pakistan had to follow Indian for countering purposes. In Any way it doesn't make us less capable. we have proved our self in times and time again. Pakistan didn't use it money in infrastructure building good for nothing, instead goes for off the shelf solution that was better for using reliable machines' despite investing a lot and then using unmature machines'.

We thought of JF-17 but mind you we had the experience of Manufacturing the Supper Mashaq and K-8 on hand plus Mirage rebuilding. We designed project with what we needed and developed yes with the help of Chinese, Chinese design help was there as well however, these are not dead projects they are still sale able aircrafts flying in different countries. Can you say about Tejas or Marut. 

Pakistani are performing in Amy up to the mark and the same Pakistanis are in politics but extremely negative and poor performance one is performing another is not, and this is where we are lacking. 

Always remember Pakistan in your every Dua like your family member.


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## Zarvan

*Me to Airforce guy. 
Sir J31 and TFX me hamari involvement he? 
Guy. No not at all ham JF pe concentrate kar rahay hn. 
Me. Sir 272 Su30mki or 100 Rafales ka khatra he baqi MiGs bhi hn ham Kia kar rahay hn
Guy. Yar no worry we have 76 F16 most in the world after US and Jf17 adequate enough. 
Me. Gives a killer smile 
Guy. Blushes and says. Yar don't worry PAF will kill those birds in their nest before they even take off. 
Me. Man lete hn Agar ap kehtay hn to. 
Guy. Laughs so loud his partner shouts at him about it*

My friends talk with PAF guy at IDEAS. @Windjammer @Arsalan @Oscar @Horus @fatman17

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/ideas-2016-karachi-pakistan.437431/page-22#ixzz4QqgFA0mQ


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## TaimiKhan

Zarvan said:


> *Me to Airforce guy.
> Sir J31 and TFX me hamari involvement he?
> Guy. No not at all ham JF pe concentrate kar rahay hn.
> Me. Sir 272 Su30mki or 100 Rafales ka khatra he baqi MiGs bhi hn ham Kia kar rahay hn
> Guy. Yar no worry we have 76 F16 most in the world after US and Jf17 adequate enough.
> Me. Gives a killer smile
> Guy. Blushes and says. Yar don't worry PAF will kill those birds in their nest before they even take off.
> Me. Man lete hn Agar ap kehtay hn to.
> Guy. Laughs so loud his partner shouts at him about it*
> 
> My friends talk with PAF guy at IDEAS. @Windjammer @Arsalan @Oscar @Horus @fatman17
> 
> Source: https://defence.pk/threads/ideas-2016-karachi-pakistan.437431/page-22#ixzz4QqgFA0mQ



Turkey has more f-16s then, may be there are others too. Seem not reliable discussion.

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## TaimiKhan

Egypt has 200+ f-16 jets, turkey had in hundreds, dutch have hundred plus.

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## Bratva

TaimiKhan said:


> Turkey has more f-16s then, may be there are others too. Seem not reliable discussion.



This is the most unprofessional and retarded talk I have heard. Looks like two village people talking about world issues.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

FYI an officer is not going to know about future development plans and procurement unless they are part of the committee or group tasked with the project and making those decisions. By speaking to people outside of that group, you will come to believe that (1) Pakistan is doing nothing or (2) Pakistan is buying every attack helicopter type under the sun.

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## Zarvan

TaimiKhan said:


> Turkey has more f-16s then, may be there are others too. Seem not reliable discussion.


Sir basically which every my friend has went there and tried to ask about future plans of Army and Air Force and Navy they didn't got right answer. The way they were answered made it clear that Armed Forces guys are ordered not share anything. Some of them had the typical devilish smile on there faces. Like they know things or agree with few things but can't share.

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## fatman17

Turkey Signs Agreement To Purchase 52 PAC Super Mushshaks

TURKEY HAS signed an agreement to buy 52 Super Mushshak basic trainers from Pakistan.

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## fatman17

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/801434467332214789
Azerbaijan renews interest in JF17 and may consider buying Super Mushshak trainers for its air force.

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## fatman17

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/801523442096939012
Leonardo offers radar and avionics package to Pakistan

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## fatman17

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/801399194506395648
From Airforces Daily

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## Zarvan




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## mrrehan

Zarvan said:


> *Me to Airforce guy.
> Sir J31 and TFX me hamari involvement he?
> Guy. No not at all ham JF pe concentrate kar rahay hn.
> Me. Sir 272 Su30mki or 100 Rafales ka khatra he baqi MiGs bhi hn ham Kia kar rahay hn
> Guy. Yar no worry we have 76 F16 most in the world after US and Jf17 adequate enough.
> Me. Gives a killer smile
> Guy. Blushes and says. Yar don't worry PAF will kill those birds in their nest before they even take off.
> Me. Man lete hn Agar ap kehtay hn to.
> Guy. Laughs so loud his partner shouts at him about it*
> 
> My friends talk with PAF guy at IDEAS. @Windjammer @Arsalan @Oscar @Horus @fatman17
> 
> Source: https://defence.pk/threads/ideas-2016-karachi-pakistan.437431/page-22#ixzz4QqgFA0mQ


Like it


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## AsifIjaz

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Sounds like the guy Oscar is getting his information from.



mastan khan... Oscar like yourself has been here since ages... Both carry decent following and their respect hence a cheap shot on anyone by either of you is despicable. Please put forward your respective comments and refrain from passing judgements.


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## fatman17

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/801734677954523137
Pakistan and France to collaborate on JF17. surprising.


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## MastanKhan

AsifIjaz said:


> mastan khan... Oscar like yourself has been here since ages... Both carry decent following and their respect hence a cheap shot on anyone by either of you is despicable. Please put forward your respective comments and refrain from passing judgements.



Hi,

What difference does it make about the term---So you are saying " mitti Pauo "---.

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## CHI RULES

fatman17 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/801523442096939012
> Leonardo offers radar and avionics package to Pakistan


Sir can u pls compare specs of Vixen 1000E and KLJ 7A?
Both may compete in future integration on block 3


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## fatman17

Industry

Turkey signs deal for 52 Pakistani Super Mushshak training aircraft

Farhan Bokhari, Karachi and Gabriel Dominguez, London - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

24 November 2016

Pakistan has secured a deal for the sale of 52 MFI-17 Super Mushshak military training aircraft to the Turkish Air Force, according to officials.

Turkey has signed a deal with Pakistan for the procurement of 52 Super Mushshak training aircraft. (PAC)

Representatives of the state-owned Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), which announced the deal, and the Turkish government signed the contract on 23 November on the sidelines of the International Defence Exhibition and Seminar (IDEAS) that is held every two years in the southern Pakistani city of Karachi.

Although the value of the contract was not revealed, a foreign military delegate attending this year's exhibition said that each unit could probably cost over USD2 million.

The Super Mushshak is a PAC licence-built version of the Saab MFI-17 Supporter aircraft, which is usually the first platform used for training air force cadets.

Around 46 of these trainers are currently in service with the Pakistan Air Force (PAF), with the first one being commissioned around the year 2000, according to IHS Jane's World Air Forces.

In addition to the PAF, the aircraft has been acquired by the air forces of Iran, Iraq, Oman, and Saudi Arabia. The trainer is also on order with Nigeria.

In 2015 officials of Pakistan's Ministry of Defence (MoD) announced that Turkey had donated 34 of its Cessna T-37 trainers to the PAF in a move that appears to have strengthened defence relations between the two countries.

An MoD official said that the latest deal with Turkey "will further solidify our existing brotherly ties". As IHS Jane'sreported in July these strong defence industrial ties between the two countries are framed by a long-standing High Level Military Dialogue Group, under which is a working group dedicated to facilitating technology transfers and defence industry co-operation.

For instance, Pakistan has turned to Turkey in the past to modernise naval platforms and upgrade some of its US-made Lockheed Martin F-16 fighters.

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## fatman17

USD104 MILL deal is a great deal. Such deals will open avenues for JF17 also.


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## khanasifm

No news or details on Nigeria and jf ?????


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## fatman17

khanasifm said:


> No news or details on Nigeria and jf ?????



initially 10 Super Mushshak and 3 JF17 are confirmed earlier.





Is it time for PAF to evaluate the J16.



CHI RULES said:


> Sir can u pls compare specs of Vixen 1000E and KLJ 7A?
> Both may compete in future integration on block 3



I'm not an expert but the VIXEN e-scan series are supposedly superior than the APG series from the US. Selex-Gallelio / Leonardo are quite advanced in this area so I'm assuming that it would probably be superior to the Chinese KLJ7 series. the main point is what does the PAF think. historically PAF have preferred western radar and avionic suites but the Chinese are clearly closing this gap.

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## AsifIjaz

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> What difference does it make about the term---So you are saying " mitti Pauo "---.



You are free to deduce what you think is right or what you think should be the way forward. I merely wanted the forum to remain civil. I will not get into a discussion to prove my point or even to try to hammer in my message. enough said.
back to topic....


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## fatman17

Pakistan has apparently developed it's own indigenous radar. also supplied to Jordan. 
Any further information or news?

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## khanasifm

IDEAS 2016 and PAF

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## fatman17

Middle East & North Africa

The governments of Pakistan and Turkey have signed an agreement to supply 52 Super Mushshak basic trainers for the Turkish military. Signatories on the deal were Air Marshal Arshad Malik, Chairman Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), and Mustafa Seker, Deputy Undersecretary Turkish Ministry of Defense Industry. Delivery is expected by 2019 and comes with a $50 million price tag.

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## fatman17

fatman17 said:


> Middle East & North Africa
> 
> The governments of Pakistan and Turkey have signed an agreement to supply 52 Super Mushshak basic trainers for the Turkish military. Signatories on the deal were Air Marshal Arshad Malik, Chairman Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), and Mustafa Seker, Deputy Undersecretary Turkish Ministry of Defense Industry. Delivery is expected by 2019 and comes with a $50 million price tag.



The actual cost of mushshak is roughly 2m $, however price reduced to pay for T37 gift from Turkey.

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## fatman17

PL-12G

It was first rumored in 2011 that 607 Institute wasdeveloping the nextgeneration of active radar homing LRAAM dubbed PL-15 which is comparable to American AIM-120D. The missile was later identified as a PL-12variant (PL-12G?) which might have evolved from the earlier PL-12C design. PL-12G features redesigned stabilizing fins and tail control fins with smaller wingspans in order to fit into the internal weapon bay of J-20.The missile also has a new a dual pulse rocket motor which extends its range to 200km. Its two-way datalink and a new active/passive dual mode AESA seeker onboard will give it an excellent ECCM capability against severe jamming. A PL-12Gprototype was first seen underneath the wing of a J-11B in 2012. In 2013 PL-12G was first seen inside J-20's main internal weapon bay during its weapon integration tests. It was reported by US intelligence that PL-12G was successfully test-fired in 2015. The latest image (November 2016) suggested that PL-12G can also be carried by the J-10B/C series.

- Last Updated 11/27/16

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## Naif al Hilali

fatman17 said:


> PL-12G
> 
> It was first rumored in 2011 that 607 Institute wasdeveloping the nextgeneration of active radar homing LRAAM dubbed PL-15 which is comparable to American AIM-120D. The missile was later identified as a PL-12variant (PL-12G?) which might have evolved from the earlier PL-12C design. PL-12G features redesigned stabilizing fins and tail control fins with smaller wingspans in order to fit into the internal weapon bay of J-20.The missile also has a new a *dual pulse rocket motor *which extends its range to 200km. Its *two-way datalink* and a new active/passive *dual mode AESA* seeker onboard will give it an excellent ECCM capability against severe jamming. A PL-12Gprototype was first seen underneath the wing of a J-11B in 2012. In 2013 PL-12G was first seen inside J-20's main internal weapon bay during its weapon integration tests. It was reported by US intelligence that PL-12G was successfully test-fired in 2015. The latest image (November 2016) suggested that PL-12G can also be carried by the J-10B/C series.
> 
> - Last Updated 11/27/16


Bismillah ir Rahman ar Raheem

Thanks for the great share brother.

Any pictures of the PL-12G available on the web? Can't seem to find any.

It seems the Pl-12D et. al. will be no-shows - US seems to be moving to dual-pulse and away from ramjets also.

On an aside, gambit must be having a heart-attack on the passive AESA bit, right about now.

Thanks again.


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## khanasifm

50 million discount to pay for 34 t37 does not add up, pak paid 25/30 million for 45-50 mirage in 90s


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## syed zia Hassan

we made a sound fighter jet JF-17...but why not a Transport air craft ..Like C-130 ?


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## fatman17

Africa

The Nigerian Air Force has announced that they have refurbished 13 aircraft, some of which have returned to active duty putting down an insurgency led by the jihadist group, Boko Haram. In addition, ten more aircraft will be added to their fleet , including four new Mi-35N attack helicopters, at least three ex-Brazilian Air Force Super Tucanos, and three JF-17 Thunders from Pakistan. This will add to a recent order of Super Mushshak trainers and a soon to be completed refurbishment program of older helicopters and light aircraft to carry out surveillance and counter-insurgency missions.


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## fatman17

* FC-1 : le Pakistan voudrait 180 appareils supplémentaires*
Air
*



*
By
Henri KENHMANN
 28 novembre 2016

Selon la presse locale The Express Tribune, le Pakistan se serait engagé à augmenter le nombre d’avion de combat *FC-1* / *JF-17* en dotation au sein des forces aériennes pakistanaises (PAF), qui passera de 70 actuellement à 250 dans les quelques années à venir. L’information est dévoilée par l’un des officiers de la PAF présents au Salon IDEAS 2016 qui a eu lieu à Karachi récemment.

Les 50 premiers FC-1 au standard Block I ont tous été livrés avant la fin 2013, à la fois par l’Usine 132 à Chengdu, en Chine, et par le PAC (Pakistan Aeronautical Complex), une entité de production aéronautique pakistanaise localisée à Kamra.




Le radar à AESA KLJ-7A

L’assemblage des appareils du standard Block II, qui seront équipés d’une perche de ravitaillement en vol et d’une nouvelle suite avionique, est actuellement en cours. Une vingtaine d’avions a été produite depuis 2014 sur les 50 de prévu, et tous les premiers avion Block I pourront aussi migrer vers le standard Block II prochainement.

Si l’information selon laquelle un total de 250 FC-1 sera en dotation pour le Pakistan est exacte, cela revient à confirmer l’acquisition du standard Block III par ce dernier. Ce nouveau mis à jour qui est en cours de développement chez l’Institut 611 Chengdu en Chine comprendra un moteur chinois *WS-13B*, un radar à antenne AESA *KLJ-7A* d’une portée de 170 kilomètres (voir notre dossier « Airshow China 2016 : KLJ-7A, le radar à AESA« ), un IRST, un viseur de casque (HMD), une nouvelle commande de vol électrique à pleine autorité redondante, et des nouveaux types de munition.

En parallèle de ces versions monoplace, l’assemblage du premier prototype biplace *JF-17B* est également commencé en Chine depuis le 27 Avril. Le groupe aéronautique chinois AVIC a présenté cette nouvelle variante basée sur le standard Block II au Salon de Bourget 2013.

#gallery-2 { margin: auto; } #gallery-2 .gallery-item { float: left; margin-top: 10px; text-align: center; width: 100%; } #gallery-2 img { border: 2px solid #cfcfcf; } #gallery-2 .gallery-caption { margin-left: 0; } /* see gallery_shortcode() in wp-includes/media.php */



La maquette de JF-17B biplace




La cérémonie d’assemblage du premier FC-1 biplace





Et l’ambition des Pakistanais (et des Chinois, puisque c’est eux le véritable concepteur de l’avion) ne s’arrêterait pas là apparemment, puisque le bureau d’études chinois Institut 611 Chengdu est en train d’étudier une version semi-furtive de FC-1, avec au moins la pointe avant redessinée et un canopy mono-pièce.




l’Institut 611 Chengdu a commencé le développement d’une version semi-furtive de FC-1

Bien que l’avion soit taillé sur mesure par Chengdu pour le Pakistan, mais ni l’armée de l’air ni la marine chinoise n’est intéressée par ce chasseur léger d’une masse à vide de classe 6 tonnes. A part le Pakistan qui l’a en dotation, la Birmanie a également commandé 16 appareils pour un montant de 560 millions de dollar US.

D’autres prospects seraient aussi en pourparler avec le Pakistan et la Chine pour l’acquisition de l’avion, on peut citer par exemple le Maroc, l’Algérie, le Nigéria, le Bangladesh, le Sri Lanka, l’Iran et l’Egypte. Le FC-1 constitue un excellent remplaçant à bas coût des vieux Chengdu *J-7* sachant que la chaîne de production est maintenant fermée – le prix d’un FC-1 Block II est estimé à environ 25 millions de dollar. Le programme pourrait devenir une prochaine poule d’or pour le groupe AVIC et le PAC.

L’Arabie Saoudite a aussi manifesté récemment un fort intérêt sur la co-production du FC-1 avec le Pakistan. Mais si le contrat se concrétise, on pense que les avions produits seraient plutôt destinés à un autre pays comme l’Egypte.

L’affaire à suivre.

Henri K.

French anyone!!!



Naif al Hilali said:


> Bismillah ir Rahman ar Raheem
> 
> Thanks for the great share brother.
> 
> Any pictures of the PL-12G available on the web? Can't seem to find any.
> 
> It seems the Pl-12D et. al. will be no-shows - US seems to be moving to dual-pulse and away from ramjets also.
> 
> On an aside, gambit must be having a heart-attack on the passive AESA bit, right about now.
> 
> Thanks again.

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## araz

fatman17 said:


> * FC-1 : le Pakistan voudrait 180 appareils supplémentaires*
> Air
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *
> By
> Henri KENHMANN
> 28 novembre 2016
> 
> Selon la presse locale The Express Tribune, le Pakistan se serait engagé à augmenter le nombre d’avion de combat *FC-1* / *JF-17* en dotation au sein des forces aériennes pakistanaises (PAF), qui passera de 70 actuellement à 250 dans les quelques années à venir. L’information est dévoilée par l’un des officiers de la PAF présents au Salon IDEAS 2016 qui a eu lieu à Karachi récemment.
> 
> Les 50 premiers FC-1 au standard Block I ont tous été livrés avant la fin 2013, à la fois par l’Usine 132 à Chengdu, en Chine, et par le PAC (Pakistan Aeronautical Complex), une entité de production aéronautique pakistanaise localisée à Kamra.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Le radar à AESA KLJ-7A
> 
> L’assemblage des appareils du standard Block II, qui seront équipés d’une perche de ravitaillement en vol et d’une nouvelle suite avionique, est actuellement en cours. Une vingtaine d’avions a été produite depuis 2014 sur les 50 de prévu, et tous les premiers avion Block I pourront aussi migrer vers le standard Block II prochainement.
> 
> Si l’information selon laquelle un total de 250 FC-1 sera en dotation pour le Pakistan est exacte, cela revient à confirmer l’acquisition du standard Block III par ce dernier. Ce nouveau mis à jour qui est en cours de développement chez l’Institut 611 Chengdu en Chine comprendra un moteur chinois *WS-13B*, un radar à antenne AESA *KLJ-7A* d’une portée de 170 kilomètres (voir notre dossier « Airshow China 2016 : KLJ-7A, le radar à AESA« ), un IRST, un viseur de casque (HMD), une nouvelle commande de vol électrique à pleine autorité redondante, et des nouveaux types de munition.
> 
> En parallèle de ces versions monoplace, l’assemblage du premier prototype biplace *JF-17B* est également commencé en Chine depuis le 27 Avril. Le groupe aéronautique chinois AVIC a présenté cette nouvelle variante basée sur le standard Block II au Salon de Bourget 2013.
> 
> #gallery-2 { margin: auto; } #gallery-2 .gallery-item { float: left; margin-top: 10px; text-align: center; width: 100%; } #gallery-2 img { border: 2px solid #cfcfcf; } #gallery-2 .gallery-caption { margin-left: 0; } /* see gallery_shortcode() in wp-includes/media.php */
> 
> 
> 
> La maquette de JF-17B biplace
> 
> 
> 
> 
> La cérémonie d’assemblage du premier FC-1 biplace
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Et l’ambition des Pakistanais (et des Chinois, puisque c’est eux le véritable concepteur de l’avion) ne s’arrêterait pas là apparemment, puisque le bureau d’études chinois Institut 611 Chengdu est en train d’étudier une version semi-furtive de FC-1, avec au moins la pointe avant redessinée et un canopy mono-pièce.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> l’Institut 611 Chengdu a commencé le développement d’une version semi-furtive de FC-1
> 
> Bien que l’avion soit taillé sur mesure par Chengdu pour le Pakistan, mais ni l’armée de l’air ni la marine chinoise n’est intéressée par ce chasseur léger d’une masse à vide de classe 6 tonnes. A part le Pakistan qui l’a en dotation, la Birmanie a également commandé 16 appareils pour un montant de 560 millions de dollar US.
> 
> D’autres prospects seraient aussi en pourparler avec le Pakistan et la Chine pour l’acquisition de l’avion, on peut citer par exemple le Maroc, l’Algérie, le Nigéria, le Bangladesh, le Sri Lanka, l’Iran et l’Egypte. Le FC-1 constitue un excellent remplaçant à bas coût des vieux Chengdu *J-7* sachant que la chaîne de production est maintenant fermée – le prix d’un FC-1 Block II est estimé à environ 25 millions de dollar. Le programme pourrait devenir une prochaine poule d’or pour le groupe AVIC et le PAC.
> 
> L’Arabie Saoudite a aussi manifesté récemment un fort intérêt sur la co-production du FC-1 avec le Pakistan. Mais si le contrat se concrétise, on pense que les avions produits seraient plutôt destinés à un autre pays comme l’Egypte.
> 
> L’affaire à suivre.
> 
> Henri K.
> 
> French anyone!!!
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 356988


FC-1: Pakistan wants 180 additional aircraft
Air

By
Henri KENHMANN
28 November 2016

According to the local press, The Express Tribune, Pakistan has pledged to increase the number of CF-1 / JF-17 fighting aircraft in the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) from 70 to 250 Some years to come. The information is unveiled by one of the officers of the PAF present at the IDEAS 2016 fair that took place in Karachi recently.

The first 50 FC-1s in the Block I standard were all delivered before the end of 2013, both by Factory 132 in Chengdu, China and by PAC (Pakistan Aeronautical Complex), a localized Pakistani aeronautical production entity In Kamra.

[IMG]
The radar at AESA KLJ-7A

The assembly of the Block II aircraft, which will be equipped with an in-flight refueling boom and a new avionics suite, is currently underway. About 20 aircraft have been produced since 2014 out of the 50 planned, and all the first Block I aircraft will also be able to migrate to the Block II standard soon.

If the information that a total of 250 FC-1 will be staffed for Pakistan is accurate, this amounts to confirming the acquisition of the Block III standard by Pakistan. This new update, which is under development at the 611 Chengdu Institute in China, will include a Chinese WS-13B engine, an AESA KLJ-7A antenna radar with a range of 170 kilometers (see our file "Airshow China 2016 : KLJ-7A, AESA radar "), an IRST, a helmet sight (HMD), a new redundant full authority electric flight control, and new types of ammunition.

In parallel to these single-seater versions, the assembly of the first two-seater prototype JF-17B has also begun in China since April 27th. The Chinese aeronautical group AVIC presented this new variant based on the Block II standard at the Paris Air Show 2013.

# Gallery-2 {margin: auto; } # Gallery-2 .gallery-item {float: left; Margin-top: 10px; Text-align: center; Width: 100%; } # Gallery-2 img {border: 2px solid #cfcfcf; } # Gallery-2 .gallery-caption {margin-left: 0; } / * See gallery_shortcode () in wp-includes / media.php * /
[IMG]
The model of JF-17B two-seater

[IMG]
The assembly ceremony of the first two-seater FC-1





And the ambition of the Pakistanis (and the Chinese, since they are the real designer of the plane) would not stop there apparently, since the Chinese Institute of Studies 611 Chengdu is studying a version Semi-stealth FC-1, with at least the redesigned front tip and a single-piece canopy.

[IMG]
The 611 Chengdu Institute began developing a semi-stealth version of FC-1

Although the plane is tailor-made by Chengdu for Pakistan, neither the Air Force nor the Chinese Navy is interested in this light fighter of a 6-tonne no-load mass. Apart from Pakistan, Burma has also ordered 16 aircraft for US $ 560 million.

Other prospects would also be in talks with Pakistan and China to acquire the aircraft, such as Morocco, Algeria, Nigeria, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Iran and 'Egypt. The FC-1 is an excellent low-cost replacement for the old Chengdu J-7, knowing that the production line is now closed - the price of a FC-1 Block II is estimated at about 25 million dollars. The program could become a next golden hen for the AVIC group and the PAC.

Saudi Arabia has also recently shown a strong interest in FC-1 co-production with Pakistan. But if the contract is realized, it is thought that the planes produced would rather be destined for another country like Egypt.

The case to follow.

Henri K.

There you go Sir.
Regards
A

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## TOPGUN

Would like to see out of the 250 Thunders how many will be B models / two seaters?


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## mingle

fatman17 said:


> initially 10 Super Mushshak and 3 JF17 are confirmed earlier.
> 
> View attachment 355416
> 
> Is it time for PAF to evaluate the J16.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not an expert but the VIXEN e-scan series are supposedly superior than the APG series from the US. Selex-Gallelio / Leonardo are quite advanced in this area so I'm assuming that it would probably be superior to the Chinese KLJ7 series. the main point is what does the PAF think. historically PAF have preferred western radar and avionic suites but the Chinese are clearly closing this gap.


@fatman as Haris Khan PDF AF shortlisted SU 35 & J 16 for 40 aircraft induction what he said before it would twin engine and one of two above .My guess it would be J16 due to finance .


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## fatman17

Air-Launched Weapons

Images show PLAAF testing possible new air-to-air missile

Andrew Tate, London and Neil Gibson, London and Richard D Fisher Jr, Washington, DC - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

02 December 2016

A PLAAF SAC J-16 fighter carrying two AAMs not previously seen in open sources. Source: Chinese internet via Weibo.com

China's People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) has been flight testing what appears to be a new long-range air-to-air missile (AAM), according to images posted on Chinese online forums.

Published on the social media platform Weibo on 20 November, the photographs show a PLAAF Shenyang Aircraft Corporation (SAC) J-16 (J-11BS derivative) twin-seat fighter carrying two AAMs not previously seen in open sources.

The photographs were removed from the micro-blogging website soon after appearing.

Analysis by Henri Kenhmann, an experienced observer of Chinese military developments, suggests that the missile may be intended to target airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) aircraft or other high value airborne units such as air-to-air refuelling aircraft.

The size of the missile is significant, with an estimated length of 5.8 m and a diameter of 300 mm. With no air intakes visible, it is assumed that the missile uses a solid-propellant-based propulsion system.

It is also noteworthy that the only control surfaces are tail fins: a similar configuration to the cancelled US Joint Dual-Role Air Dominance Missile or Next-Generation Missile.

The nose (radome) is ogival and likely to house an active radar seeker. Also seen on the upper surface and offset to the rear of the nose, is an object which could be associated with an infrared sensor window, although this cannot be confirmed due to the limited quality of the imagery.

Sitting behind the nose is a cylindrical section, slightly longer than the nose, which likely holds the missile guidance, proximity fuzing, and power systems. Present near its rear are four equally spaced strips, which are most likely antennas of a radio frequency proximity fuzing system.

Sitting behind this is a short cylindrical section, which likely houses the missile warhead section, the type and mass of which remains unclear.

The longest portion of the missile is the cylindrical motor section.

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## fatman17

Air Chief lauds PAF’s first ever expedition to Antarctic Peninsula

City Islamabad
NOVEMBER 18, 2016 BY STAFF REPORT

Chief of the Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman met the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) team which returned from their first ever expedition to the Antarctic Peninsula. Argentinean Ambassador Ivan Ivanissevich was also present on the occasion. The Air Chief thanked the Argentinean Government for extending this opportunity to PAF personnel and hoped that the relations between both the countries and their air forces would continue to strengthen even further. He also expressed his desire to invite an Argentinean team to Pakistan next year for an expedition to the Northern Areas of Pakistan. He appreciated the resilience of the PAF team in the extreme weather conditions of the Antarctic region.

The expedition, carrying the slogan ‘Beat the Extreme’ had been planned in collaboration with Argentinean Air Force (AAF). To undertake this uphill task in the South Pole, a four-member team of the PAF left for Rio Gallegos, Argentina from Islamabad. From Rio Gellegos, the team was airlifted by an Argentinean Air Force aircraft from to Marembio (Antarctic Peninsula).

The team along with the Argentinean counterparts conducted the exercise in the Antarctic wilderness facing extreme weather conditions.

Antarctica, the fifth-largest continent, contains the geographic South Pole and is situated in the Antarctic region of the Southern Hemisphere. About 98% of Antarctica is covered by ice that averages 1.9 km (1.2 mi; 6,200 ft) in thickness, which extends to all but the northernmost reaches of the Antarctic Peninsula.

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## fatman17

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/805714854095028224

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## fatman17

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/805717218021478401

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## fatman17

Africa

The first batch of four Super Mushshak trainers have been delivered to Nigeria . Delivery comes six weeks after the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) signed a deal with the Nigerian Air Force to supply 10 new Super Mushshaks, eight of which will be loaned on an interim basis until the new trainers are exported. The next four will arrive by the second quarter of 2017, while the new models will be delivered later that summer.

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## Thorough Pro

can't play twitter videos, any youtube link?



fatman17 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/805714854095028224


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## ahsanhaider

Kamra Aeronautical Complex Documentary 2016

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## fatman17

Air Platforms

Nigerian Air Force commissions first Super Mushshak trainers

Erwan de Cherisey, Paris - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

06 December 2016

The Nigerian Air Force held a ceremony on 5 December to mark the arrival of its first Super Mushshak trainers. (Nigerian Air Force)

The Nigerian Air Force (NAF) officially inducted into service its first Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) Kamra Super Mushshak basic training aircraft in a ceremony held at Kaduna Air Base on 5 December.

The ceremony was attended by Nigerian Chief of Air Staff Air Marshal Sadiq Abubakar and Pakistan Air Force Chief of Staff Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman.

The Pakistan Broadcasting Corporation reported that four Super Mushshaks were handed over during the ceremony.

Air Marshal Abubakar noted that the new aircraft will allow the NAF to increase the tempo of its pilot training programme. "By the first quarter of 2017, NAF would have an additional 56 pilots to boost its operational manpower requirement," he said.

It was announced on 21 October that the NAF had ordered 10 Super Mushshaks for an undisclosed amount. The contract also covers training and technical support.

The Super Mushshak is an upgraded derivative of the Mushshak, which is a license-produced version of the Saab MFI-17 Supporter. It features a more powerful 260 hp Textron Lycoming IO-540 V4A5 engine and a glass cockpit. The aircraft is in service in Iran, Iraq, Oman, Pakistan, and Saudi Arabia and was recently ordered by Qatar and Turkey.


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## Signalian



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## The Eagle

*PAC HANDS OVER 70 JF-17 FIGHTER JETS TO PAF, NA TOLD*
*Chairman PAC Complex Kamra informed NA body about successful sale deal of Super Mushshak Aircraft to Nigeria, Turkey.*




04:19 PM, 7 Dec, 2016


Pakistan Aeronautical Complex has handed over seventy JF-17 fighter jets to Pakistan Air Force for its operational activities.

This was told to the National Assembly Standing Committee on Defense Production in Islamabad on Wednesday.

The Chairman Pakistan Aeronautical Complex Kamra informed the Committee about the successful sale deal of Super Mushshak Aircraft to Nigeria and Turkey.

He also informed the Committee that PAC has vast experience and capacity for manufacturing the Super Mushshak within agreed time frame.

He further informed the Committee that PAC’s engineers have repaired Awacas Aircrafts, which were damaged during the terrorist attack.

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## Windjammer

Dual purpose dessert strip under use by both PAF & PA at Islamkot in Tharparkar, Sindh .
Barely 80km from Indian border.

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## fatman17

Windjammer said:


> Dual purpose dessert strip under use by both PAF & PA at Islamkot in Tharparkar, Sindh .
> Barely 80km from Indian border.
> 
> View attachment 358441



to be used for aircraft recovery during emergency or outbreak of hostilities.

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## syed_yusuf

Question: Why PAF never bother to invest in Mirage 50? or upgrade mirage 5PA/PA2/PA3 to mirage 50? i believe early 90's was a good opportunity to invest in that upgrade. Mirage 50 ROSE-MR could have been a good option.


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## Windjammer

Good study of F-7PGs cranked delts, leading edge slats and two piece canopy , some of the main visible differences as compared to standard F-7.

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## Inception-06

Windjammer said:


> Good study of F-7PGs cranked delts, leading edge slats and two piece canopy , some of the main visible differences as compared to standard F-7.
> 
> View attachment 359001



Which Version of AIM-9 missile the F-7PG can carry ?


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## khanasifm

AIM-9M v9 are all slotted for F16s and block 52 older AiM9Ls are now transferred to PG and Mirage ROSE 1 with radar.
PAF still have older AIM9J/P but not sure if thy were upgraded to make them all aspect or not ie AIM9PV4 or something like that (all aspect version AIM 9Ps ie Papa, Aim9L for Lima)

My guess though

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## fatman17

khanasifm said:


> AIM-9M v9 are all slotted for F16s and block 52 older AiM9Ls are now transferred to PG and Mirage ROSE 1 with radar.
> PAF still have older AIM9J/P but not sure if thy were upgraded to make them all aspect or not ie AIM9PV4 or something like that (all aspect version AIM 9Ps ie Papa, Aim9L for Lima)
> 
> My guess though



All rounds upgraded

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## Awan68

niaz said:


> Even if we assume Turkey to be in Europe; China, Japan, South Korea and India are ahead of Pakistan in the aviation field. We are No. 5 in Asia.


How is india ahead in the aviation field??,- mention one product that is indian in the fighter circles???


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## Shabi1

syed_yusuf said:


> Question: Why PAF never bother to invest in Mirage 50? or upgrade mirage 5PA/PA2/PA3 to mirage 50? i believe early 90's was a good opportunity to invest in that upgrade. Mirage 50 ROSE-MR could have been a good option.



Wishful thinking in the 90s of hoping embargoes would be lifted and F-16s would be released was the reason decision to upgrade Mirage took too long and used Mirage F-1s not acquired when PAF had the opportunity.

Again advent of F-16 Block-52s and MLU upgrades negated the chances of acquiring J-10s when that became available.

However in the end I think turned out well for PAF. PAF will soon have just two major platforms JF-17 and F-16 along with a handful of Mirage Rose or F-7PGs. With a new 5th gen platform joining in 2021-4. It will become a very lean force.

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## araz

Awan68 said:


> How is india ahead in the aviation field??,- mention one product that is indian in the fighter circles???


You would be well advised to listen to the seniors here. India was , is and will always be ahead of us in the development cycle. I know we love to hate the LCA but this is an indegenous venture(purely from the classification perspective). We on the other hand have just started our development cycle with the assembly and then manufacturing of the parts of JFT.
As a principle please never underestimate your adversary lt is a fatal flaw in your thinking process. Confident but always thinking you have to catch up with your adversary makes you work hard.
A

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## Inception-06

khanasifm said:


> AIM-9M v9 are all slotted for F16s and block 52 older AiM9Ls are now transferred to PG and Mirage ROSE 1 with radar.
> PAF still have older AIM9J/P but not sure if thy were upgraded to make them all aspect or not ie AIM9PV4 or something like that (all aspect version AIM 9Ps ie Papa, Aim9L for Lima)
> 
> My guess though



Thank you very much, for the fast reply. So the AIM-9 is the most potent air to air missile in our inventory for the Mirage and F-7PG fleet, how about PL-5E, PL-7, PL-8 and PL-9 ? Do we have this in our inventory, if yes, then that's decent air to air missile inventory !

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## khanasifm

Aim9 and pl5e2 are only short range aam with paf

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## Signalian

Shabi1 said:


> Wishful thinking in the 90s of hoping embargoes would be lifted and F-16s would be released was the reason decision to upgrade Mirage took too long and used Mirage F-1s not acquired when PAF had the opportunity.
> 
> Again advent of F-16 Block-52s and MLU upgrades negated the chances of acquiring J-10s when that became available.
> 
> However in the end I think turned out well for PAF. PAF will soon have just two major platforms JF-17 and F-16 along with a handful of Mirage Rose or F-7PGs. With a new 5th gen platform joining in 2021-4. It will become a very lean force.



PAF has a defensive setup when the aircraft inventory is observed. In own skies, PAF is a lean force. 

F-7P/PG is a point defence or escort fighter. It should have been completely retired by now or in coming couple of years, which was envisioned when JF-17 was brought into perspective. It is limited by many aspects. Upgrading it has reached its limit. It is very effective in a dog fight when its complementing F-16 and JF-17 to make up numbers in the air. Put drop tanks to increase range and compromise on its payload. The air frames are relatively new for PG versions. Bangladeshis have a put 7 hard points on it to make it more potent for BAF. But over all this aircraft in PAF is in front line service instead of reserves because no other alternative has been acquired yet. 

Mirage,Rose or non-Rose, have also reached their limitations. Their usefulness is there but their life on most frames is over. Its the lack of choice that PAF has which is why these planes are still in first line of duty for strike role after F-16. PAF once went on a world wide shopping spree to get the Mirage-III/V body frames and planes from all parts of the world. This brings the choices that PAF had to replace these aircrafts early which would never had increased their numbers beyond 120 or so and probably would have also kept the F-7P/PG population down just like A-5 and retired them quickly. 
Mirage-2000 probably if acquired in 80's or 90's would have even given PAF a great opportunity to bring a aircraft in air which is comparable in capabilities to F-16. The dependency on F-16 would have not have been so high as it is now currently. Instead of Mirage III/V in hundreds, PAF would have acquired Mirage-2000 in hundreds. The 3rd gen aircrafts like F-7 and Mirage II/V would have been retired and PAF would be operating only 4th gen with JF-17, F-16 and Mirage-2000. In fact PAF could have got rid of F-16 completely from its inventory instead of maximising its numbers in lieu of Mirage-2000. This move could have brought J-10 in PAF and PAF would be fielding the first AESA with FC-10 or J-10B. 

Even if considering that F-16 nullified the possibility of J-10 in PAF and that the cash in PAF hand can be spent on 5th gen aircraft, the numbers and limitations of 5th gen aircraft will again put F-16 to take the brunt of the burden of PAF. 5th Gen will be two squadrons at most to start with and God knows when PAF will increase them from two squadrons to 4 or 5. The payload carried by 5th gen aircraft while retaining its stealth capabilities, is still small, but it will give two advantages to PAF.
1. Offensive capability of PAF will be increased ten folds.
2. PAF will win the 5th gen induction race from IAF.
The cost of operation and maintenance of 5th gen can still be considered more than 4th gen fighters. 

PAF could be eventually planning of:
4th gen aircraft: F-16 and JF-17.
4.5 gen aircraft: JF-17 Block 3
5th gen aircraft: J-31 probably.

JF-17 will be the maximum numbers that PAF will field, a light category. F-16 is a medium category, reaching 100 mark seems very difficult now and then J-31 will be a stealth category. A medium or heavy category of 4.5 gen aircraft like SU35 or EF2000 would have given a fresh lethal look to PAF before any 5th gen is inducted.

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## Inception-06

khanasifm said:


> Aim9 and pl5e2 are only short range aam with paf




And what are the long range operational missiles for the F-7 and Mirage Fleet ? If any exist ?



Sarge said:


> PAF has a defensive setup when the aircraft inventory is observed. In own skies, PAF is a lean force.
> 
> F-7P/PG is a point defence or escort fighter. It should have been completely retired by now or in coming couple of years, which was envisioned when JF-17 was brought into perspective. It is limited by many aspects. Upgrading it has reached its limit. It is very effective in a dog fight when its complementing F-16 and JF-17 to make up numbers in the air. Put drop tanks to increase range and compromise on its payload. The air frames are relatively new for PG versions. Bangladeshis have a put 7 hard points on it to make it more potent for BAF. But over all this aircraft in PAF is in front line service instead of reserves because no other alternative has been acquired yet.
> 
> Mirage,Rose or non-Rose, have also reached their limitations. Their usefulness is there but their life on most frames is over. Its the lack of choice that PAF has which is why these planes are still in first line of duty for strike role after F-16. PAF once went on a world wide shopping spree to get the Mirage-III/V body frames and planes from all parts of the world. This brings the choices that PAF had to replace these aircrafts early which would never had increased their numbers beyond 120 or so and probably would have also kept the F-7P/PG population down just like A-5 and retired them quickly.
> Mirage-2000 probably if acquired in 80's or 90's would have even given PAF a great opportunity to bring a aircraft in air which is comparable in capabilities to F-16. The dependency on F-16 would have not have been so high as it is now currently. Instead of Mirage III/V in hundreds, PAF would have acquired Mirage-2000 in hundreds. The 3rd gen aircrafts like F-7 and Mirage II/V would have been retired and PAF would be operating only 4th gen with JF-17, F-16 and Mirage-2000. In fact PAF could have got rid of F-16 completely from its inventory instead of maximising its numbers in lieu of Mirage-2000. This move could have brought J-10 in PAF and PAF would be fielding the first AESA with FC-10 or J-10B.
> 
> Even if considering that F-16 nullified the possibility of J-10 in PAF and that the cash in PAF hand can be spent on 5th gen aircraft, the numbers and limitations of 5th gen aircraft will again put F-16 to take the brunt of the burden of PAF. 5th Gen will be two squadrons at most to start with and God knows when PAF will increase them from two squadrons to 4 or 5. The payload carried by 5th gen aircraft while retaining its stealth capabilities, is still small, but it will give two advantages to PAF.
> 1. Offensive capability of PAF will be increased ten folds.
> 2. PAF will win the 5th gen induction race from IAF.
> The cost of operation and maintenance of 5th gen can still be considered more than 4th gen fighters.
> 
> PAF could be eventually planning of:
> 4th gen aircraft: F-16 and JF-17.
> 4.5 gen aircraft: JF-17 Block 3
> 5th gen aircraft: J-31 probably.
> 
> JF-17 will be the maximum numbers that PAF will field, a light category. F-16 is a medium category, reaching 100 mark seems very difficult now and then J-31 will be a stealth category. A medium or heavy category of 4.5 gen aircraft like SU35 or EF2000 would have given a fresh lethal look to PAF before any 5th gen is inducted.



Good Morning Pakistan !

A selam Brother how are you ?

A very clearly and understandable written article, but do one thing, and tag me always, when you write or post anything in the Military section, I always enjoy a cup of tea or meal, while reading good texts in PDF !

regards

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## MastanKhan

Sarge said:


> PAF has a defensive setup when the aircraft inventory is observed. In own skies, PAF is a lean force.
> 
> F-7P/PG is a point defence or escort fighter. It should have been completely retired by now or in coming couple of years, which was envisioned when JF-17 was brought into perspective. It is limited by many aspects. Upgrading it has reached its limit. It is very effective in a dog fight when its complementing F-16 and JF-17 to make up numbers in the air. Put drop tanks to increase range and compromise on its payload. The air frames are relatively new for PG versions. Bangladeshis have a put 7 hard points on it to make it more potent for BAF. But over all this aircraft in PAF is in front line service instead of reserves because no other alternative has been acquired yet.
> 
> Mirage,Rose or non-Rose, have also reached their limitations. Their usefulness is there but their life on most frames is over. Its the lack of choice that PAF has which is why these planes are still in first line of duty for strike role after F-16. PAF once went on a world wide shopping spree to get the Mirage-III/V body frames and planes from all parts of the world. This brings the choices that PAF had to replace these aircrafts early which would never had increased their numbers beyond 120 or so and probably would have also kept the F-7P/PG population down just like A-5 and retired them quickly.
> Mirage-2000 probably if acquired in 80's or 90's would have even given PAF a great opportunity to bring a aircraft in air which is comparable in capabilities to F-16. The dependency on F-16 would have not have been so high as it is now currently. Instead of Mirage III/V in hundreds, PAF would have acquired Mirage-2000 in hundreds. The 3rd gen aircrafts like F-7 and Mirage II/V would have been retired and PAF would be operating only 4th gen with JF-17, F-16 and Mirage-2000. In fact PAF could have got rid of F-16 completely from its inventory instead of maximising its numbers in lieu of Mirage-2000. This move could have brought J-10 in PAF and PAF would be fielding the first AESA with FC-10 or J-10B.
> 
> Even if considering that F-16 nullified the possibility of J-10 in PAF and that the cash in PAF hand can be spent on 5th gen aircraft, the numbers and limitations of 5th gen aircraft will again put F-16 to take the brunt of the burden of PAF. 5th Gen will be two squadrons at most to start with and God knows when PAF will increase them from two squadrons to 4 or 5. The payload carried by 5th gen aircraft while retaining its stealth capabilities, is still small, but it will give two advantages to PAF.
> 1. Offensive capability of PAF will be increased ten folds.
> 2. PAF will win the 5th gen induction race from IAF.
> The cost of operation and maintenance of 5th gen can still be considered more than 4th gen fighters.
> 
> PAF could be eventually planning of:
> 4th gen aircraft: F-16 and JF-17.
> 4.5 gen aircraft: JF-17 Block 3
> 5th gen aircraft: J-31 probably.
> 
> JF-17 will be the maximum numbers that PAF will field, a light category. F-16 is a medium category, reaching 100 mark seems very difficult now and then J-31 will be a stealth category. A medium or heavy category of 4.5 gen aircraft like SU35 or EF2000 would have given a fresh lethal look to PAF before any 5th gen is inducted.



Hi,

A very well thought of article---but one thing must be remembered---if Paf had diversified to M2k's--there would be no restrictions on the F16's.

You only squeeze the ballz to hurt---but when there is no pain---the purpose of squeezing the ballz evaporates---.

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## fatman17

Ulla said:


> Thank you very much, for the fast reply. So the AIM-9 is the most potent air to air missile in our inventory for the Mirage and F-7PG fleet, how about PL-5E, PL-7, PL-8 and PL-9 ? Do we have this in our inventory, if yes, then that's decent air to air missile inventory !



AIM120C5

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## Saleem

http://english.chinamil.com.cn/view/2016-12/08/content_7397384.htm


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## fatman17

Just a nice pic

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## fatman17

Confirmed: Pakistan Air Force now Operates 70 JF-17 Fighter Jets.

The new number was released by Pakistan’s National Assembly in early December.


By Franz-Stefan Gady
December 13, 2016



The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) operates a total of 70 Pakistan Aeronautical Complex/Chengdu Aerospace Corporation (PAC/CAC) JF-17 Thunder fighter jets, the National Assembly Standing Committee on Defense Production revealed in Islamabad on December 7, according to local media reports.

The PAF now fields about an equal number of JF-17 and U.S.-made F-16 multirole fighter aircraft of all variants. (After U.S. lawmakers stalled financing for an additional eight F-16C/D Block-52 fighter aircraft, Pakistan is now mulling the purchase of eight used F-16s from the Royal Jordanian Air Force.)

The JF-17, first inducted into the PAF in 2011, is a lightweight, single-engine, multirole combat aircraft, powered by a Russian-designed-but-Chinese-built Klimov RD-93 (a RD-33 derivative) turbofan, capable of reaching a top speed of Mach 1.6. The aircraft allegedly has an operational range of around 1,200 kilometers (745 miles).

In total, the PAF plans to acquire 150 JF-17s over the next years divided into three production blocks: Block-I, Block II, and Block-III. So far, the PAF has only received Block-I and Block-II variants of the aircraft. 50 out of the 70 JF-17 in service are of the Block-I variant. The PAF last inducted 16 Block-II JF-17s in April.

As I noted elsewhere, according to the chief of air staff, Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman, Pakistan achieved its goal of producing 16 JF-17 Thunder aircraft in 2015 and wants to produce a total number of 24 Block-II JF-17 aircraft by the end of 2016. Next to carrying a heavier weapons payload, Block-II variants feature a new air-to-air refueling probe, an enhanced oxygen system, and an improved electronic countermeasures system, among other things.

Pakistan produces 58 percent of the airframe and China 42 percent respectively. Islamabad has the capacity to assemble up to 25 JF-17s per year without Beijing’s technical assistance. However, as I noted in April 2015, according to Chinese and Pakistani media reports, China agreed to deliver 110 JF-17s to Pakistan in fly-away condition due to Pakistan’s still limited aircraft manufacturing capacity.

The JF-17 was originally developed to to replace the PAF’s aging fleet of Dassault Mirage III/5 fighter jets by 2o20. “Pakistan is looking to replace 190 aircraft—primarily Chengdu F-7 and Dassault Mirage III/5 fighter jets—by 2020 presumably with a mixture of F-16 and JF-17 aircraft. Pakistan, however, is also allegedly in talks with Russia over the purchase of Su-35 multi-role fighters,” I reported in April (See: “China and Pakistan Air Forces Launch Joint Training Exercise”).

China and Pakistan are also developing a combat-capable two-seat trainer variant of the JF-17, which likely will make its maiden flight in the coming weeks.

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## fatman17

A new dog in the fight

_ China's recent unveiling to potential export customers of its PL-10 imaging-infrared guided air-to-air missile was a testament to the country's growing weapons-design capabilities. As Douglas Barrie explains, just a handful of nations have so far mastered this technology and this model is likely emerge as the standard imaging-infrared missile in the PLAAF inventory. _

* Date:* 29 November 2016







By Douglas Barrie, Senior Fellow for Military Aerospace

China has joined a so far exclusive club of nations capable of designing and developing high agility imaging-infrared guided air-to-air missiles (AAMs). As well as being introduced into the air force, the PL-10 missile has already been put on show for possible export customers. The missile was displayed for the first time at Air Show China, held in Zhuhai in early November.

Given the close ties between China and Pakistan on the JF-17 light fighter programme, Islamabad is an obvious candidate as the first export customer for China’s latest ‘dogfight’ missile. Beijing has previously supplied its PL-5 and PL-7 infrared-guided missiles as part of weapons packages to other air forces including those of: Bangladesh, Iran, Nigeria, North Korea, Pakistan and Venezuela.

The PL-10 represents a considerably more capable design than Beijing has previously been able to offer. Only a handful of countries have the capability to design and develop high-agility imaging infrared AAMs. Only six such missiles are in service: the US AIM-9X, the British ASRAAM, the French _Mica_-IR, the European multi-national IRIS-T, the Israeli _Python_ 5 and the Japanese AAM-5. The South African _A-Darter_ is nearing service entry, while Russia has yet to field – or offer for export – an imaging infrared AAM.

The Luoyang PL-10 will provide the PLAAF with a successor to the PL-8 – effectively the Israeli _Python_ 3 AAM – and the Russian R-73 (AA-11 _Archer_), which are the two most capable short-range missiles in its inventory.

The missile uses a similar aerodynamic configuration to the IRIS-T, the once proposed Ukrainian _Gran_, and indeed the Japanese AAM-5, with small fixed destabilisers to the rear of the seeker dome, narrow span mid-body wings and all moving cruciform tail surfaces.

The rear fins also have a distinctive notch on the trailing surfaces. Design insight may have been gained from Russia, South Africa and Ukraine. The PL-10 also appears to use an umbilical fitting similar to that of the R-73, potentially allowing the weapon to be fitted to the same launch pylon.

Launch weights varying between 89kg and 105kg have been claimed for the missile. Given that it uses a combination of thrust vector and aerodynamic control, and the drag penalty that this incurs, it is likely to be at the upper end of this weight range. As of late 2015, some 30 test-firings had been carried out. Development of the missile has been probably been under way for around 15 years.

The missile is believed to have been provided to the PLAAF in a small initial batch. It has been seen fitted for testing on the J-10, the J-11 and the J-20. If the service trials are successful, the weapon will likely emerge as the standard imaging-infrared missile in the PLAAF inventory and as the replacement for the PL-5, PL-7 and PL-9 infrared missiles that Chinese industry has previously supplied to export customers.

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## Tank131

What ever happened to PL-9C that was touted to be part of JF-17s weapons package?


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## fatman17

Just a nice pic

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## MastanKhan

Tank131 said:


> What ever happened to PL-9C that was touted to be part of JF-17s weapons package?



Hi,

Supposedly a newer and better missile took its place.

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## fatman17

Just a nice pic

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## Zarvan

*Malik Faheem promoted to Air Vice Marshal*






-File photo

*The Government of Pakistan has promoted Air Commodore Malik Faheem Ullah to the rank of Air Vice Marshal. Air Vice Marshal Malik Faheem Ullah was commissioned in GD (P) Branch of Pakistan Air Force in January, 1988.*

He is a qualified Flying Instructor. During his illustrious career, he has commanded a Fighter Squadron, a Fighter Wing and an Operational Air Base.

In his staff appointments, he has served as Director Training Officers at Air Headquarters and Senior Staff Officer (Operations) at Central Air Command.

He is a graduate of Combat Commanders’ School, Air War College, National Defence University Islamabad and Command and Staff College China. He holds Master’s degree in Strategic Studies. He is a recipient of Sitara-i-Imtiaz(Military).

http://aaj.tv/2016/12/malik-faheem-promoted-to-air-vice-marshal/

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## Signalian

PAF has following capable aircraft in inventory now:

70 JF-17
76 F-16

33 Mirage-III ROSE-I (IRST equipped) They are great for interception roles, probably can do strike missions too
20 Mirage-V ROSE-II (FLIR equipped) Excellent for strike missions
14 Mirage-V ROSE-III (FLIR equipped) Excellent for Night strike missions

These Mirages share the burden of Strike missions with JF-17 and F-16.

Total = *213*

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## Fieldmarshal

Sarge said:


> PAF has following capable aircraft in inventory now:
> 
> 70 JF-17
> 76 F-16
> 
> 33 Mirage-III ROSE-I (IRST equipped) They are great for interception roles, probably can do strike missions too
> 20 Mirage-V ROSE-II (FLIR equipped) Excellent for strike missions
> 14 Mirage-V ROSE-III (FLIR equipped) Excellent for Night strike missions
> 
> These Mirages share the burden of Strike missions with JF-17 and F-16.
> 
> Total = *213*



Ur forgetting to add the f7 pg to that list. As its an excellent point defence fighter...with its double cranked delta wings n bvr capability..it's more than a match for most fighters

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## syed_yusuf

PAF has following capable aircraft in inventory now:

70 JF-17
76 F-16

33 Mirage-III ROSE-I (IRST equipped) They are great for interception roles, probably can do strike missions too
20 Mirage-V ROSE-II (FLIR equipped) Excellent for strike missions
14 Mirage-V ROSE-III (FLIR equipped) Excellent for Night strike missions
53 F-7PG excellent point defence fighter and capabile of delivering CAS and PGM's

These Mirages share the burden of Strike missions with JF-17 and F-16.

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## JPMM




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## Signalian

Fieldmarshal said:


> Ur forgetting to add the f7 pg to that list. As its an excellent point defence fighter...with its double cranked delta wings n bvr capability..it's more than a match for most fighters


I did give a thought about F-7 PG. its frame is fairly new, capabilities are somewhat limited. I find it more of a compromise. However, i certainly dont view it as a crap fighter. 

PAF holds it in good esteem.

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## khanasifm

New sqn badges

The following new sqn are raised in last decade or less does any one has their badges
Or sqn insignia ?
1. No 4 sqn awacs k-3
2 No 10 mrtt sqn il78
3 No 13 awacs sqn Saab 2K
4 No 21 transport sqn c130

THE C130 ABOVE is from 6 sqn badge on the nose rhs


This fills the gap from 1 to 27 sqn plus 41 sqn being the 28th sqn and counting Ccs as 1 full sqn strength (jf, f7 and mirages) makes paf total 29 sqns of course not counting risal-pur based training sqn (2 wings) and 7/8 heli sqns


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## fatman17

khanasifm said:


> New sqn badges
> 
> The following new sqn are raised in last decade or less does any one has their badges
> Or sqn insignia ?
> 1. No 4 sqn awacs k-3
> 2 No 10 mrtt sqn il78
> 3 No 13 awacs sqn Saab 2K
> 4 No 21 transport sqn c130
> 
> THE C130 ABOVE is from 6 sqn badge on the nose rhs
> 
> 
> This fills the gap from 1 to 27 sqn plus 41 sqn being the 28th sqn and counting Ccs as 1 full sqn strength (jf, f7 and mirages) makes paf total 29 sqns of course not counting risal-pur based training sqn (2 wings) and 7/8 heli sqns



These sqdns were number plated so actually not entirely new


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## fatman17

Just raised with new aircraft


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## khanasifm

fatman17 said:


> These sqdns were number plated so actually not entirely new



Yes but reactivated and active now and sqn insignia may have changed ??? not sure no 13 and 21 ever existed

http://www.paffalcons.com/orbat/index.php


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## khanasifm

looks like 10 sqn mrtt


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## fatman17

Just a nice pic

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## khanasifm

I have seen depo video with this kind of laser bomb on display but no where any specific details are available, there were janes in the past stating pak is license building gbu-12/10 no where seen a model at ideas expo may be it's only for internal consumption and cannot be exported but again why in depo video? ??

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## fatman17

khanasifm said:


> View attachment 362331
> 
> 
> I have seen depo video with this kind of laser bomb on display but no where any specific details are available, there were janes in the past stating pak is license building gbu-12/10 no where seen a model at ideas expo may be it's only for internal consumption and cannot be exported but again why in depo video? ??



GBU kits are purchased from USA.

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## fatman17

FC31 02
The latest images suggested that the high-speed taxi test of the 02 prototype started on December 18, 2016. Itsfirst flight took place on December 23, 2016, powered by two smokeless WS-13E engines.

- Last Updated 12/23/16

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## fatman17



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## 帅的一匹

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 362857
> FC31 02
> The latest images suggested that the high-speed taxi test of the 02 prototype started on December 18, 2016. Itsfirst flight took place on December 23, 2016, powered by two smokeless WS-13E engines.
> 
> - Last Updated 12/23/16


Maybe Allah bless it doesn't smoke again.

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## chaklala2

Does anyone have access to hussaini's Rt-33 painting from 1965 war?

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## Arsala.nKhan

Can you tell me if maripur base is being shifted ? is this true or wrong news?


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## khanasifm

No video release of f31 flight ???


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## fatman17

Arsala.nKhan said:


> Can you tell me if maripur base is being shifted ? is this true or wrong news?



It shd be shifted, surrounded by populated areas.

J31 news is not too encouraging.

The J-31 project appears to have fallen much first behind. There were numerous reports in this year that both PLAAF and PLAN have rejected the current iteration of this aircraft. It looks like SAC is continuing to privately fund this project and recently flew the second prototype. Since J-20 is unlikely to be purchased in large number (probably in similar numbers of F-22), there will be a requirement for a lower cost 5th generation fighter jet. SAC is building a limited number of prototypes to continue to showcase an improved demonstrator. At some point, it is hoping to capture more funding from PLA in order to really ramp up the development work for J-31. It would be a sad day for SAC if it looses both the light 5th gen aircraft and 2nd generation naval aircraft project to CAC.

WS-13E engine achieved design certification this year. The second FC-31 prototype may be powered by this engine. It could also be used to power JF-17 and UCAV projects. So, I think this is one development that should be carefully watched.

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## Arsala.nKhan

fatman17 said:


> It shd be shifted, surrounded by populated areas.
> 
> J31 news is not too encouraging.
> 
> The J-31 project appears to have fallen much first behind. There were numerous reports in this year that both PLAAF and PLAN have rejected the current iteration of this aircraft. It looks like SAC is continuing to privately fund this project and recently flew the second prototype. Since J-20 is unlikely to be purchased in large number (probably in similar numbers of F-22), there will be a requirement for a lower cost 5th generation fighter jet. SAC is building a limited number of prototypes to continue to showcase an improved demonstrator. At some point, it is hoping to capture more funding from PLA in order to really ramp up the development work for J-31. It would be a sad day for SAC if it looses both the light 5th gen aircraft and 2nd generation naval aircraft project to CAC.
> 
> WS-13E engine achieved design certification this year. The second FC-31 prototype may be powered by this engine. It could also be used to power JF-17 and UCAV projects. So, I think this is one development that should be carefully watched.


I heard its being relocated at thatta and the maripu r is given to chinesse any reality into this news update i got from some one ?

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## Saba Ali Malik

*Pakistan Air Force museum at Karachi displays a captured Folland Gnat of the IAF*
* In 1965 operation Gibralter" was launched and it failed but Pak had a moment of glory when an IAF Gant was captured intact*


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## fatman17

Air Platforms

China's second FC-31 fighter prototype makes maiden flight

Richard D Fisher Jr, Washington DC and Gabriel Dominguez, London - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

28 December 2016

Images posted on Chinese online forums show what appears to be the second prototype of China's FC-31 fighter making its maiden flight. 

Images posted on Chinese online forums show what appears to be the second prototype of the Shenyang Aircraft Corporation (SAC) FC-31 'Gyrfalcon' twin-engine, 'fifth-generation' fighter making its maiden flight.

The publication of the images was followed by a China Daily newspaper report quoting an unnamed source as saying that the test flight took place on 23 December - some four years after the first prototype took to the skies - at an airfield in Shenyang belonging to SAC, which is part of Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC).

Billed by AVIC as an export fighter, the first indication that the FC-31 was in advanced construction was its brief appearance in an AVIC video shown at Airshow China 2016, which was held in Zhuhai from 1 to 6 November.

Derived from the J-31 fighter prototype, the second version of the multirole fighter had been shown in model form at the 2014 and 2016 Zhuhai shows.

"The new FC-31 seems to have better stealth capabilities, improved electronic equipment, and a larger payload capacity," Wu Peixin, an aviation industry observer in Beijing, told China Daily .

This image shows some of the differences in design between the latest FC-31 prototype and the J-31 prototype. 

"Compared with the first FC-31, there are a lot of improvements on the second prototype. Changes were made to the airframe, wings, and vertical tails, which make it leaner, lighter, and more manoeuvrable," he said.

The aircraft features a much-modified fuselage with an electro-optical targeting system (EOTS) and swept-back vertical stabilisers similar to those used by the Lockheed-Martin F-35 Lightning II.

AVIC recently provided new FC-31 specifications at Zhuhai, updating figures leaked at around the time of the September 2015 Beijing Airshow.

According to the new specifications, the FC-31's length has increased to 17.3 m from 16.8 m, while its maximum take-off weight has increased to 28 tonnes from 25 tonnes. The FC-31 also has an advertised combat radius of 1,250 km and can reportedly reach a maximum speed of Mach 1.8 and an altitude of 16 km (52,500 ft).


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## fatman17

Re equipment for No 14 sqdn "tail choppers ".

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## fatman17

Argentina again looking for warplanes options. 

The only sources free of American or European influence are Russia and China.

Chinese F-8 “Finback-Bs” would be a very cheap used option, presenting no serious threat, but good for harassment patrols and shows of force at range. The question is whether they could be kept in the air. The JF-17 Thunder from China and Pakistan would be a more advanced option and a definite threat, thanks to its ability to carry C802 subsonic and CM-400AKG supersonic anti-ship missiles. Argentina has expressed interest in the JF-17, and has held discussions directly with China.

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## fatman17

June 27/13: JF-17. Argentina is reportedly in talks with China concerning the FC-1/ JF-17 fighter, a joint project with Pakistan whose performance lies somewhere between a Mirage F1 and an F-16. It can use radar-guided air-to-air missiles, but its most important asset is the CASIC CM-400AKG supersonic anti-ship missile, with a range that’s longer than France’s sub-sonic Exocets. Its is also shown at air shows like Farnborough with China’s C802 sub-sonic anti-ship missile, which is very similar to the American Harpoon.

“Speaking at the Paris Air Show in mid-June, officials from Fabrica Argentina de Aviones (FAdeA) told IHS Jane’s that the company has had multiple discussions with Chinese officials over co-producing the fighter in Argentina. Although the FC-1/JF-17 is already jointly built with Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, FAdeA officials stressed that they are dealing solely with the Chinese…. While discussions are said to be far from over, if realised they will open up a wide panoply of Chinese weapon systems to Argentina…”

Sources: IHS Jane’s Missiles & Rockets, “Fighter talks may afford Argentina advanced Chinese missile systems”.


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## Avicenna

lol Argentina wants Block 60 Kfirs.


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## fatman17

Avicenna said:


> lol Argentina wants Block 60 Kfirs.



No Deal is stalled

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## Avicenna

Yes but at the end of the day it will most likely be the Kfirs.


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## khanasifm

I think even kafir deal fell through they donot have $$$ but want to make JF locally kafir deal was cheaper but then I think there were some issue or they had second thoughts


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## MystryMan

fatman17 said:


> No Deal is stalled


Then good opportunity for JF17 to secure another sale. Nowhere else they will find a new airframe with multirole capabilities for $25mil.


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## khanasifm

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 366034
> Re equipment for No 14 sqdn "tail choppers ".




Whats is this ? a Photoshop ? or official pic

Any way each wing carrying 1000 KG Mk84, 200kg SD10, 100 kg PL5e2 x 2 = 1300kg x 2 = 2600 kg plus 800 kg = 3400kg , estimation for 800 liter drop tank , 800kg on the center station, rounding off kgs.
Gun Ammo add another 50 - 100 kg , 3500 kg in this config. for external load


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## fatman17

TAI Harkus. Will PAF invest in this platform


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## fatman17

PAF Mirages and the international media.

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## fatman17

Turkish Meltem 3

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## ZedZeeshan

fatman17 said:


> TAI Harkus. Will PAF invest in this platform


NO..


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## mrrehan

fatman17 said:


> News Asia-Pacific:
> 
> 1. Thailand to buy 12 JAS-39C/D Gripens and 2 Saab Eri-eye AEW systems for US 1.08 Billion. Gripens will replace the ageing F-5E/Fs of the RTAF. the Lockheed-Martin F-16 and the Sukhoi SU-30 were also short-listed before settling on the Gripen.
> 
> 2. More details emerge on secretive chinese WZ-10 attack helicopter:
> powered by two 1,531 shp P&WC PT6C-67C turbo shaft engines with Full Authority Digital Engine Control(FADEC). although some sources suggest that up to eight trials WZ-10s may now have been built, only three flying prototypes have been confirmed. (Z10-01, 02 and 03). maiden flights on April 23, 2003. in 2001 China asked Denal to purchase one helicopter (Rooivalk) suggesting it was to be used for reverse engineering and therefore the sales was blocked.weapons planned for the WZ-10 appear to be largely indigeneous like the new HJ-10 ATGM and older TY-90 SRAAMs.
> 
> 3.India finalises plans for 40 more SU-30MKIs:
> clearence has been given for the US $ 1.6 Billion deal to purchase 40 SU-30MKIs from Russia for the IAF. the additional 40 SU-30MKIs will give the IAF a fleet of 230 SU-30MKIs. the indian govt has asked HAL to complete the delivery of these aircraft by 2013-14 instead of the originally planned 2016-17
> 
> 4. HAL to upgrade IN Sea-Kings:
> clearence has been given to upgrade 18 of the IN Seaking 42/42B ASW helicopters under a $ 200 mill programme. IN originally purchased 43 Seakings but were grounded due to sanctions imposed after the 1998 nuclear tests.
> 
> 5. Pakistan takes over Bell 412EPs:
> 
> already reported in land forces section.





I would like to know why Pakistan is not quite serious when it's come to Mirage aircraft's, we have few variants in use, we have done modification in aircraft, we have rebuild factory for Mirage very good knowledge of aircraft's engine. Israel on other hand have done the same moreover they have developed their own KAFIR from Mirage 5. However the platform is quite old now but still KAFIR has been heavily modified and perhaps undergoing dealing with Argentina for sale.

My question is that why not Pakistan have done so "I am not saying saying, Pakistan should make variant of Mirage". At least Pakistan could have gone towards Mirage 2000, Which is basically form from Mirage 5. A very nice platform that we a history of usage, maintaining facilities and trained peoples as well.


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## fatman17

mrrehan said:


> I would like to know why Pakistan is not quite serious when it's come to Mirage aircraft's, we have few variants in use, we have done modification in aircraft, we have rebuild factory for Mirage very good knowledge of aircraft's engine. Israel on other hand have done the same moreover they have developed their own KAFIR from Mirage 5. However the platform is quite old now but still KAFIR has been heavily modified and perhaps undergoing dealing with Argentina for sale.
> 
> My question is that why not Pakistan have done so "I am not saying saying, Pakistan should make variant of Mirage". At least Pakistan could have gone towards Mirage 2000, Which is basically form from Mirage 5. A very nice platform that we a history of usage, maintaining facilities and trained peoples as well.



Mirage deal fell through due to corruption charges.


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## mrrehan

fatman17 said:


> Mirage deal fell through due to corruption charges.



Sir as far as corruption is concern it's everywhere even in US in every force or govt. agency, but leaving a well established platform just because of few corrupt indivisual is not understandable. If you can kindly explain, Thanks.


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## ziaulislam

mrrehan said:


> I would like to know why Pakistan is not quite serious when it's come to Mirage aircraft's, we have few variants in use, we have done modification in aircraft, we have rebuild factory for Mirage very good knowledge of aircraft's engine. Israel on other hand have done the same moreover they have developed their own KAFIR from Mirage 5. However the platform is quite old now but still KAFIR has been heavily modified and perhaps undergoing dealing with Argentina for sale.
> 
> My question is that why not Pakistan have done so "I am not saying saying, Pakistan should make variant of Mirage". At least Pakistan could have gone towards Mirage 2000, Which is basically form from Mirage 5. A very nice platform that we a history of usage, maintaining facilities and trained peoples as well.


that would have been a disaster too, why
1. first india opted for mirage even before we got f-16
so india would have always been the 1st customer
2. it would have blocked further upgrades as it block thunder upgrades, as french are money makers not honest

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## mrrehan

ziaulislam said:


> that would have been a disaster too, why
> 1. first india opted for mirage even before we got f-16
> so india would have always been the 1st customer
> 2. it would have blocked further upgrades as it block thunder upgrades, as french are money makers not honest



However PAF was the first user. If the french is like that then they can block India for a good deal from else where too.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

mrrehan said:


> Sir as far as corruption is concern it's everywhere even in US in every force or govt. agency, but leaving a well established platform just because of few corrupt indivisual is not understandable. If you can kindly explain, Thanks.


Corruption can affect more than just bank accounts. The final price was much higher than what was coming in the package. The French already put a high price thanks to the M2K's relative popularity and the fact that the PAF didn't have any other Western fighter option, but the corruption added another price layer. IMO the best argument was to have gone for the M2K back in the early 1980s, *not* the F-16. The sanctions of the 1960s and cold ties of the 1970s should have predisposed the PAF to avoid American fighters, no second (much less third) chances. Like the Mirage III/5, the PAF could have just kept buying M2K variants in small increments.

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## ziaulislam

mrrehan said:


> However PAF was the first user. If the french is like that then they can block India for a good deal from else where too.


india is the largest weapon buyer in the world, none can offer a better deal


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## fatman17

mrrehan said:


> Sir as far as corruption is concern it's everywhere even in US in every force or govt. agency, but leaving a well established platform just because of few corrupt indivisual is not understandable. If you can kindly explain, Thanks.



Point 2. No cash. Our perennial problem. 3 B $ for 40 aircraft was a tad too high in those days.


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## mrrehan

ziaulislam said:


> india is the largest weapon buyer in the world, none can offer a better deal



It is Indian madness, million of peoples living beyond what the word poor is. political government at-least smartly spend the taxpayer money, but dirty politics comes from dirty politician.



fatman17 said:


> Point 2. No cash. Our perennial problem. 3 B $ for 40 aircraft was a tad too high in those days.



So it was cost of platform + American sanction benefits as well 



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Corruption can affect more than just bank accounts. The final price was much higher than what was coming in the package. The French already put a high price thanks to the M2K's relative popularity and the fact that the PAF didn't have any other Western fighter option, but the corruption added another price layer. IMO the best argument was to have gone for the M2K back in the early 1980s, *not* the F-16. The sanctions of the 1960s and cold ties of the 1970s should have predisposed the PAF to avoid American fighters, no second (much less third) chances. Like the Mirage III/5, the PAF could have just kept buying M2K variants in small increments.



Thanks sir, but Is there any possibility to go for M2K now again because we have existing Infrastructure of this platform and conditions are change and it will be not expensive as well, In view of buying J-10B or C or other new platform to replace mirages.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

mrrehan said:


> It is Indian madness, million of peoples living beyond what the word poor is. political government at-least smartly spend the taxpayer money, but dirty politics comes from dirty politician.
> 
> 
> 
> So it was cost of platform + American sanction benefits as well
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks sir, but Is there any possibility to go for M2K now again because we have existing Infrastructure of this platform and conditions are change and it will be not expensive as well, In view of buying J-10B or C or other new platform to replace mirages.


Pakistan doesn't have the infrastructure to manage the M2K, it's completely different from the III/5. It won't be acquiring the M2K considering that the platform considering it is out of the production; no new spare parts, and the existing pool is quite small. The PAF won't be able to sustain those fighters for very long.


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## mrrehan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Pakistan doesn't have the infrastructure to manage the M2K, it's completely different from the III/5. It won't be acquiring the M2K considering that the platform considering it is out of the production; no new spare parts, and the existing pool is quite small. The PAF won't be able to sustain those fighters for very long.




Hummm.... Thank you sir


----------



## DesiWarrior

As we are all aware that pretty soon Pakistan air force is formally going to induct fourth squadron of JF-17, I was wondering what happens to the retired planes? Four retired squadrons of F-7P means about 64 planes considering each squadron having 16 planes each and then about 6 planes from CCS, so we should have about 70 retired F-7P's. Are we doing anything with them? Are they stored in a way that they can reactivated in case of emergency requirement?


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## fatman17

mrrehan said:


> It is Indian madness, million of peoples living beyond what the word poor is. political government at-least smartly spend the taxpayer money, but dirty politics comes from dirty politician.
> 
> 
> 
> So it was cost of platform + American sanction benefits as well
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks sir, but Is there any possibility to go for M2K now again because we have existing Infrastructure of this platform and conditions are change and it will be not expensive as well, In view of buying J-10B or C or other new platform to replace mirages.



only used and to be upgraded mirages are now available. production has switched to Rafale.



DesiWarrior said:


> As we are all aware that pretty soon Pakistan air force is formally going to induct fourth squadron of JF-17, I was wondering what happens to the retired planes? Four retired squadrons of F-7P means about 64 planes considering each squadron having 16 planes each and then about 6 planes from CCS, so we should have about 70 retired F-7P's. Are we doing anything with them? Are they stored in a way that they can reactivated in case of emergency requirement?



40 F-6 and 40 A-5 are stored as reserves. others are donated or become gate-guards all over the country.

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## mrrehan

fatman17 said:


> only used and to be upgraded mirages are now available. production has switched to Rafale.



Personally I like Rafale, but again it has two engine. The only option could be perhaps is buy more Mirage 5 and upgrade them to our requirements. Insisting on Mirage platform as it's battle proven mature, over the ocean performance is good, and we have the Infrastructure to keep them alive and active. Hopefully be cost effective.


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## MystryMan

mrrehan said:


> Personally I like Rafale, but again it has two engine. The only option could be perhaps is buy more Mirage 5 and upgrade them to our requirements. Insisting on Mirage platform as it's battle proven mature, over the ocean performance is good, and we have the Infrastructure to keep them alive and active. Hopefully be cost effective.


Spending on an older platform of limited capability, Not worth it. Spending on JF-17 would be much better.


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## fatman17

YJ-83K


YJ-83K is a turbojet powered AShM based on the YJ-83 SSM. YJ-83K (H/AKJ83) features a frequency agile radar seeker and has a sea-skimming capability. It also features datalink and has a range of 180km. Its cruising altitude is 20-30m (5-7m during terminal phase), cruising speed is 0.9M. It weights 715kg and carries a 165kg warhead. It was rumored that the missile could reach supersonic speed at the terminal stage but this turned out to be false. YJ-83K is being carried by the naval JH-7/JH-7A (up to 4), H-6G (up to 4). It is also expected to be carried by J-10AH and the new J-15 (up to 2) in service with PLAN. A similar export version called C-802A was also developed and is being carried by PAF JF-17. Iran reverse-engineered C-802 as Noor which can be carried by its F-4. C-802A can also be carried by the new FC-31 still in development.

- Last Updated 1/14/17


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## Saim Ahmed Butt

assalam o alikum is their any JF-17 block 2 or 3 has been established till?


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## Rocky rock

Saim Ahmed Butt said:


> assalam o alikum is their any JF-17 block 2 or 3 has been established till?



https://defence.pk/threads/jf-17-thunder-information-pool.71435/page-51


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## khanasifm

Saim Ahmed Butt said:


> assalam o alikum is their any JF-17 block 2 or 3 has been established till?




I am sorry but at least I cannot understand this statement/question please restate the question


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## The Eagle

Saim Ahmed Butt said:


> assalam o alikum is their any JF-17 block 2 or 3 has been established till?



As far as I can understand your query, 20 JF-17 Block-2 are delivered to PAF and all block-1 are expected to be converted to Block-2 as planned. No block-3 yet but is expected around 2018-19......


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## fatman17

Billions to Upgrade and Up-arm Pakistan’s F-16s

Jan 17, 2017 00:57 UTC by Defense Industry Daily staff

Latest update [?]

PAF F-16As

Modernization program finishes with TAI deliveries.

January 17/17: Pakistan is hoping that a Donald Trump presidency may restart a plan to procure F-16 jets through a foreign military financial aid scheme. US Congress downed the plan last year following concerns by some lawmakers over Islamabad’s allegiances in regards to counter-terrorism operations in the region. It was decided that if Pakistan wanted the F-16s, they would have to pay for them out of their own pocket.


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## Windjammer

@gambit , Sir what do you make of this bold statement by this living legend.

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## Rocky rock

Windjammer said:


> @gambit , Sir what do you make of this bold statement by this living legend.
> 
> 
> View attachment 370063



*The #SocialTighthead must be Indian. want to hear about the same thing for india too. *

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## fatman17

Windjammer said:


> @gambit , Sir what do you make of this bold statement by this living legend.
> 
> 
> View attachment 370063



Truth speaks for itself.


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## gambit

Windjammer said:


> @gambit , Sir what do you make of this bold statement by this living legend.
> 
> 
> View attachment 370063


I say take it seriously.

Saying someone is a 'born pilot' or that he was 'born to be a pilot' get bandied about pretty carelessly. It is true that a few of us have biology that make them much more tolerant to the rigors of aviation than others. I learned that I have no fear of heights from an early age and later on, thanks to carnival rides, I can withstand g-forces easily enough.

I maybe biased -- as an Air Force guy -- but there is nothing in man's repertoire of things he can do that is more complex and demanding than flight. Next up is motor vehicle racing, whether it is on the water or on land, whether it is two wheels or four.

Do you know what kind of person who can best withstand the physical rigors of flight ? Would you believe high blood pressure ?

http://gizmodo.com/why-the-human-body-cant-handle-heavy-acceleration-1640491171


> Under normal conditions, your body must maintain 22 millimeters of mercury blood pressure to get blood from your heart to your brain. Each additional +Gz (blood flows from the head to the feet) that a person experiences multiplies that requirement: The body has to muster double that at 2g, triple that at 3g, and so on until they hit around 4 or 5 G's, at which point most folks will pass out due to oxygen starvation because all the blood stays in their feet.


No, am not talking about high blood pressure that requires medication lest he die. Am talking about the type of body whose regular blood pressure is higher than the statistical norm.

http://www.torch.aetc.af.mil/News/A...n-help-pilots-avoid-blackouts-in-cockpit.aspx


> The student pilot showed up to my office standing at 6-foot-2 and weighing less than 170 pounds soaking wet! We had our work cut out for us. The student seemed to have a very healthy cardiovascular system with blood pressure as low as 110/70. *The lower than normal blood pressure coupled with less than average muscular tone could spell disaster for anyone attempting to pull Gs.*


Discard _Top Gun_. We use it to pick up chicks, nothing more. That short and slightly pudgy pilot might just be the best dogfighter in the squadron, but you will not find out until you are in the air, and by then, it is too late for your ego.

The more physically and mentally complex a task, the easier it is to lose proficiency over time. Whatever Yeager observed of Pakistani pilots back then, it is based upon his own knowledge of everything he has of aviation and of being a pilot. Piloting is perishable skill. If you do not maintain what you achieved in terms of basic airmanship, those skills will deteriorate and deteriorate much more rapidly than you think.

I learned there are two skills in life that will deteriorate very rapidly if you do not maintain those skills: piloting and shooting.

Whatever Yeager observed back then may not have transferred to today. So it is up to you to find out if Pakistan have maintained the same training and flying rigors today that Yeager noted back then. If not, citing Yeager is not going to help you one bit.

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## MastanKhan

Windjammer said:


> @gambit , Sir what do you make of this bold statement by this living legend.
> 
> 
> View attachment 370063



Hi,

And what has that done to the enemy---it has pis-sed them off as well---.

There are many amongst them---who have really worked and trained hard to prove it wrong.

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## mrrehan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Corruption can affect more than just bank accounts. The final price was much higher than what was coming in the package. The French already put a high price thanks to the M2K's relative popularity and the fact that the PAF didn't have any other Western fighter option, but the corruption added another price layer. IMO the best argument was to have gone for the M2K back in the early 1980s, *not* the F-16. The sanctions of the 1960s and cold ties of the 1970s should have predisposed the PAF to avoid American fighters, no second (much less third) chances. Like the Mirage III/5, the PAF could have just kept buying M2K variants in small increments.



Sir, What is the story? I am sending the link as well, of-course you will be aware of.
http://www.tacticalreport.com/view_news/UAE-Pakistan-and-Mirage-2000-9s/5264#sthash.FAj297sf.dpuf


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

mrrehan said:


> Sir, What is the story? I am sending the link as well, of-course you will be aware of.
> http://www.tacticalreport.com/view_news/UAE-Pakistan-and-Mirage-2000-9s/5264#sthash.FAj297sf.dpuf


I wouldn't give this any weight.

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## araz

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I wouldn't give this any weight.


Agreed. The time for the M2K has come and gone. You have the JFT now, put all your effort into it.
A

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## sherryrobert

adioos


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## fatman17

Turkish Air Force has lost nearly 265 of its 400 fighter pilots due to the recent purge in Turkey.


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## razgriz19

fatman17 said:


> Turkish Air Force has lost nearly 265 of its 400 fighter pilots due to the recent purge in Turkey.



I would assume a large country like Turkey would have more fighter pilots than that. Even PAF has 1:3 ratio, if not more

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## fatman17

razgriz19 said:


> I would assume a large country like Turkey would have more fighter pilots than that. Even PAF has 1:3 ratio, if not more



a source on twitter quoted that figure.


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## Neptune

fatman17 said:


> Turkish Air Force has lost nearly 265 of its 400 fighter pilots due to the recent purge in Turkey.



Nearly 1100 former fighter pilots known to be Atatürk loyalists have been asked to reapply and reactivate their service by the government. 938 of them have passed the psychical tests and will receive their ranks soon. Once again, the national security of Turkey was guaranteed by soldiers loyal to Atatürk.

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## mrrehan

araz said:


> Agreed. The time for the M2K has come and gone. You have the JFT now, put all your effort into it.
> A



Not agreed, as sooner or later 30+ year old platform F-16 had to go F-7 and mirages also have to go. You cannot have only one type of aircraft JF-17, to defend all the country including oceanic borders as well. M2K9 could be in service till 2030 according to some analyst's. However if we cant have M2k9 then, what left is most probably J-10B/C.


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## razgriz19

^ F-16s aren't going anywhere anytime soon. As far as i can tell, they would mist likely be replaced by a 5th gen fighter. So there will never be a point in PAF where they would only have one type of aircraft


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## khavar

Pak Army introduced a new missile ABABEEL. Very Good Keep it Up.


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## araz

mrrehan said:


> Not agreed, as sooner or later 30+ year old platform F-16 had to go F-7 and mirages also have to go. You cannot have only one type of aircraft JF-17, to defend all the country including oceanic borders as well. M2K9 could be in service till 2030 according to some analyst's. However if we cant have M2k9 then, what left is most probably J-10B/C.


The 16s are not going any where this side of 30s. So your assumption is incorrect. As to the M2Ks the assembly line stopped in 2002 and spares are fast becoming a problem. At the best of times it is an expensive platform to maintain and now even more so. The reason Singapore and taiwan and Qatar retired them was for the same reason.
If you look at the histroyof PAF it has looked at the M2Ks multiple times and the deal has npot gone through. The last time was 2002. If it did not do anything then it certainly does not make any sense to me for it to be bought now.
The rest everyone is entitled to an opinion.
Regards
A

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## mrrehan

araz said:


> The 16s are not going any where this side of 30s. So your assumption is incorrect. As to the M2Ks the assembly line stopped in 2002 and spares are fast becoming a problem. At the best of times it is an expensive platform to maintain and now even more so. The reason Singapore and taiwan and Qatar retired them was for the same reason.
> If you look at the histroyof PAF it has looked at the M2Ks multiple times and the deal has npot gone through. The last time was 2002. If it did not do anything then it certainly does not make any sense to me for it to be bought now.
> The rest everyone is entitled to an opinion.
> Regards
> A




Well as far as F-16 is concern, do you really think US interested giving us parts for F-16 in view of current relations. I personally thing there is a quite visible shift between Pakistan and US. Pakistan is getting more closer to chain and Russia then US. If we are dealing with the projects of Oil and Gas with Iran US is not happy, If we try to make our local Investor to get involve in research and development for army in various level US sanctioning few local companies. I see it as a open threat that Pakistan would have recognized earlier. Even PC-3 orion attacked in Base Fasil Karachi and Kamra attacked stories are unfolding some other suspicious hands use to reduce the capacity Pakistan has built. Relying on US for military hardware is a suicide. or simply we cant fight any war with F-16 as mainstream fighter.


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## -------

The first phase of Turkish Aerospace Industries' (TAI's) modernization programme for the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has been successfully completed. Installing night vision googles on two PAF F-16 Block 15 (A/B) aircraft, TAI optimized the aircraft's cockpit for night flights. During the modernization work conducted in Pakistan's Shahbaz Air Base, cockpit illumination compatibility work on two aircraft, one of them being twin-seated, has been completed. The night flight compatibility of the aircraft was tested and approved in December, and delivered to the service. TAI also provided training to PAF personnel regarding the optimization of F-16 cockpits for night flights. TAI will deliver necessary compatibility kits for 43 additional F-16 to PAF later on.

http://en.c4defence.com/Agenda/paf-said-tai/3637/1

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## fatman17

A state-run Chinese newspaper has reported that Beijing is testing a new long-range air-to-air missile capable of downing early warning aircraft and aerial refueling aircraft. The munition’s development runs alongside what is described as an “ambitious modernization program” led by President Xi Jinping, including stealth fighters, aircraft carriers and the testing of anti-satellite missiles. While the air force has yet to comment on this new missile, pictures posted on the service’s website, showed a J-11B fighter carrying a large, unidentified missile during drills last year.

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## fatman17

Military Capabilities

Myanmar in advanced negotiations to licence-build JF-17 fighter

Anthony Davis, Yangon - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

01 February 2017

A PAF JF-17 Thunder being demonstrated at the 2015 Paris Air Show. Myanmar is in negotiations to licence-build the third-generation fighter. Source: PA

After deciding to purchase 16 JF-17 Thunder multi-role combat aircraft in 2015, Myanmar is now in advanced negotiations with Pakistan to also licence-build the third-generation fighter, defence industry sources in Yangon and sources close to the Myanmar Air Force (MAF) told Jane'sin mid-January.

If an agreement is reached, Myanmar's bid to manufacture the single-engine combat aircraft - co-developed by the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) and China's Chengdu Aerospace Corporation (CAC) - could mark a significant step forward in the country's efforts to expand its local defence industry.

As the MAF phases out its obsolete fleet of F-7M Airguard and A-5C 'Fantan' combat aircraft purchased from China in the 1990s, licensed production of the JF-17 Thunder would also mean that the aircraft will likely become the MAF's workhorse over the coming decades in much the same way as it has moved to prominence within the Pakistan Air Force (PAF).

At least 70 of the fighters are in service with the PAF, with the first ones having entered service in 2009. Expectations are that the PAF will induct up to 150 JF-17 Thunder fighters in the coming years.

The first of 16 imported JF-17s ordered by Myanmar are expected to go into service with the MAF later this year. Speaking on condition of anonymity, sources told Jane'sthat these aircraft will be of the Block II variant, which was first rolled out from the PAC's Kamra plant in 2015 and which, unlike the Block I variant, features an air-to-air refuelling capability and improved avionics and electronics.

It is unclear whether later deliveries to the MAF will include the far more advanced Block III variant being produced at Kamra since last year. Sources told Jane's that in the context of ongoing negotiations on licensed production, Myanmar is seeking to produce the aircraft's Block III variant.

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## fatman17

shouldn't Pakistan delay this deal, with what the Burmese have done to its rohingyas Muslims.


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## araz

fatman17 said:


> shouldn't Pakistan delay this deal, with what the Burmese have done to its rohingyas Muslims.


The problem is we dont have much of a say in the matter as China is the primary dealer with Mayanmar. The aviation industry is fickle and competition is tough. We cant act like the US or Russia who have established clientelle. So if we delay things they might go and buy Russian product. I think the time to gently cajole a favourable decision would be when our platforms are established in MAF.
MY 2 PAISAS WORTH.
A

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## fatman17

araz said:


> The problem is we dont have much of a say in the matter as China is the primary dealer with Mayanmar. The aviation industry is fickle and competition is tough. We cant act like the US or Russia who have established clientelle. So if we delay things they might go and buy Russian product. I think the time to gently cajole a favourable decision would be when our platforms are established in MAF.
> MY 2 PAISAS WORTH.
> A



money over principle. I get it.


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## araz

fatman17 said:


> money over principle. I get it.


Nawaz Shareef government and Sir you expect them to prefer principles over money. I think you know as well as me that aint happenning. I think the contract wasdone by the Chinese in any case.
A


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## fatman17

araz said:


> Nawaz Shareef government and Sir you expect them to prefer principles over money. I think you know as well as me that aint happenning. I think the contract wasdone by the Chinese in any case.
> A



sirjee the deal is with Pakistan,

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## fatman17

*Pakistan to Order 50 More Fighter Jets in 2017*
The Pakistan military is likely to place an order for an additional 50 JF-17 fighter jets this year.






By Franz-Stefan Gady for The Diplomat
February 08, 2017


The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) will likely place an order for 50 Pakistan Aeronautical Complex/Chengdu Aerospace Corporation (PAC/CAC) JF-17 Block-III fighter jets in the first half of 2017, according to PAC chairman Air Marshall Arshad Malik.

The JF-17 is a lightweight, single-engine, multirole combat aircraft, powered by a Russian-designed-but-Chinese-built Klimov RD-93 (a RD-33 derivative) turbofan. The aircraft can reach a top speed of Mach 1.6 and reportedly has an operational range of 1,200 kilometers (745 miles). The fighter jet features seven hardpoints and can carry up to 3,629 kilograms in weaponry and other payloads.

The PAF is slated to induct 150 JF-17 combat aircraft over the next years split into three production blocks: Block-I, Block II, and Block-III. PAC has so far produced 50 Block-I aircraft and over 20 out of a total order of 50 Block-II JF-17s. According to the PAC chairman in an interview with _Asian Military Review_, Pakistan will produce 14 additional JF-17 Block-II aircraft in 2017.

The JF-17 Block-III, the latest variant of the combat aircraft, will feature new avionics including Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA), which will replace the older Nanjing Research Institute of Electronic Technologies’ (NRIET) KLJ-7 X-band fire control radar, and a new electronic warfare system, among other things.


_Pakistan produces 58 percent of the airframe and China 42 percent. Islamabad has the capacity to assemble up to 25 JF-17s per year without Beijing’s technical assistance. However, as I noted in April 2015, according to Chinese and Pakistani media reports, China agreed to deliver 110 JF-17s to Pakistan in fly-away condition due to Pakistan’s still limited aircraft manufacturing capacity._

It appears that PAC’s production problems are a thing of the past as Pakistan has actively been promoting the aircraft to foreign customers. Nigeria has allegedly agreed to purchase three JF-17s; Myanmar placed an order for 16 combat aircraft and is purportedly considering ordering an unknown number of additional JF-17s.

As I reported elsewhere:

_The JF-17 was originally developed to to replace the PAF’s aging fleet of Dassault Mirage III/5 fighter jets by 2o20. “Pakistan is looking to replace 190 aircraft—primarily Chengdu F-7 and Dassault Mirage III/5 fighter jets—by 2020 presumably with a mixture of F-16 and JF-17 aircraft. Pakistan, however, is also allegedly in talks with Russia over the purchase of Su-35 multi-role fighters,” I reported in April (See: “China and Pakistan Air Forces Launch Joint Training Exercise”)._

PAC is also in the process of building a combat-capable two-seat trainer variant of the JF-17, the JF-17B. According to the PAC chairman, three JF-17Bs will be built initially.

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## crictimw

Do PAF announce Jobs?


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## fatman17

Pakistani AF is also believed to have been evaluating Wing Loong during mid-2016.



crictimw said:


> Do PAF announce Jobs?



as all govt. organizations in the newspapers esp. Urdu.

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## monitor

Pakistan Air Force il-78 brings 25 metric tons of rice to drought stricken people in Sri Lanka.

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## Readerdefence

..the Taihang WS-10 series engines.....
Courtesy Davidau sino defence
So there is a chance for PAF to get these planes as these been flying on WS series engines any Chinese member here Can put down there comments 
Or any other member 
Thx

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## syed_yusuf

is this j-16?


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## Readerdefence

syed_yusuf said:


> is this j-16?


J11-B


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## The Eagle

Readerdefence said:


> ..the Taihang WS-10 series engines.....
> Courtesy Davidau sino defence
> So there is a chance for PAF to get these planes as these been flying on WS series engines any Chinese member here Can put down there comments
> Or any other member
> Thx



In short, these are Chinese flankers (derived from SU series) with Russian restrictions/copyrights of export. Mere Chinese engine cannot change the rule until & unless Russia permits.


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## Readerdefence

The Eagle said:


> In short, these are Chinese flankers (derived from SU series) with Russian restrictions/copyrights of export. Mere Chinese engine cannot change the rule until & unless Russia permits.


That's why my friend Chinese are importing modern technology su35 from Russia 
Beside that to make Russia agreed to export flankers they can ask them to put Russian engines 
Specifically for Pakistani export 
I might be wrong but at least got leverage on 
Fingers crossed


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## The Eagle

Readerdefence said:


> That's why my friend Chinese are importing modern technology su35 from Russia
> Beside that to make Russia agreed to export flankers they can ask them to put Russian engines
> Specifically for Pakistani export
> I might be wrong but at least got leverage on
> Fingers crossed



Firstly, there is no interest from our end and secondly, it cannot be done without Russian Permission though, in-case of any interest, China may play its rule like before but Flankers in PAF is highly unlikely to happen. F-16s, JF-17s (different blocks) & up-coming Next Generation Fighter.


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## fatman17

Military Capabilities
*Pakistan inducts new JF-17 squadron*
*Farhan Bokhari, Islamabad* - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
16 February 2017



The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has formally transitioned 14 Squadron into a JF-17 Thunder unit following the arrival of 16 new aircraft on 15 February.

The arrival of the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) aircraft at Minhas Air Base marked the transition of the unit from the Chinese-built F-7P air defence and ground attack aircraft and the FT-7 operational trainer variant.

To date, the PAF has taken delivery of 86 JF-17 aircraft and has stood up five squadrons on the type.

The JF-17 is a single engine fighter produced jointly by the PAC and China's Chengdu Aircraft Corporation (CAC). It has so far been equipped with a Russian RD-93 engine, although Chinese officials have urged Pakistan to consider equipping future platforms with Chinese-built engines.

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## fatman17

*Chinese-Pakistani JF-17 Thunder Fighter Will Fly In 2017*
Advanced JF-17 versions coming, 10 years after service entry
Feb 13, 2017 Alan Warnes * | * Aviation Week & Space Technology




With the first export orders signed and new capabilities being introduced at a rapid pace, 2017 looks set to be an important year for the JF-17 Thunder developed by China and Pakistan. The first flight of a two-seat version—JF-17B—is planned for the first quarter, Pakistan will stand up its fifth squadron flying the aircraft, and contracts are due to be signed for the most advanced variant, the Block 3, complete with active, electronically scanned array (AESA) radar. The ...

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## mzeeshanfahd

fatman17 said:


> *Chinese-Pakistani JF-17 Thunder Fighter Will Fly In 2017*
> Advanced JF-17 versions coming, 10 years after service entry
> Feb 13, 2017 Alan Warnes * | * Aviation Week & Space Technology
> View attachment 378879
> 
> With the first export orders signed and new capabilities being introduced at a rapid pace, 2017 looks set to be an important year for the JF-17 Thunder developed by China and Pakistan. The first flight of a two-seat version—JF-17B—is planned for the first quarter, Pakistan will stand up its fifth squadron flying the aircraft, and contracts are due to be signed for the most advanced variant, the Block 3, complete with active, electronically scanned array (AESA) radar. The ...




come on Sir .... post complete text ....


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## fatman17

mzeeshanfahd said:


> come on Sir .... post complete text ....



my bad as I don't have a subscription to AWST.

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## khanasifm

its already posted in its own thread


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## fatman17

https://twitter.com/warnesyworld/status/834029116189982720?s=09)


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

In pakistan---there might be ' some good news ' coming our way.

Before the other party could tell me what it was---I told them to stop---I don't want to know what it is.

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## Zarvan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> In pakistan---there might be ' some good news ' coming our way.
> 
> Before the other party could tell me what it was---I told them to stop---I don't want to know what it is.


What ????????????? You asked them to stop ? For GOD sake ask that guy again and please ask him to tell what is the news. Or at least ask him is the news related to new Fighter Jet because I have some information of my own so I want to see whether we have same information or not


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## Readerdefence

Zarvan said:


> What ????????????? You asked them to stop ? For GOD sake ask that guy again and please ask him to tell what is the news. Or at least ask him is the news related to new Fighter Jet because I have some information of my own so I want to see whether we have same information or not


Why don't you two exchange that news on private chat and if it's legitimate then let us know also 
Thx

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## MastanKhan

Zarvan said:


> What ????????????? You asked them to stop ? For GOD sake ask that guy again and please ask him to tell what is the news. Or at least ask him is the news related to new Fighter Jet because I have some information of my own so I want to see whether we have same information or not



Hi,

I have my reasons for not pursuing the info---. What if the info was too sensitive---?

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## fatman17

Air-Launched Weapons
*IDEX 2017: China's FT-12 glide bomb gets rocket booster*
*Richard D Fisher Jr, Abu Dhabi* - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
23 February 2017






The ALIT official said this is the more accurate of the two images of the FT-12 used on the promotional leaflet for the weapon. Source: ALIT


China's rocket-boosted precision-guided glide bomb, the Fei Teng FT-12, was revealed at the IDEX show in Abu Dhabi by China Aerospace Long-March International Trade Co, Ltd (ALIT), the marketing arm of the China Aerospace Science and Technology Corporation (CASC).

While the existence of an FT-12 glide bomb has been previously reported, this is the first time that it has been clearly stated that it is rocket-boosted.

An ALIT official told _Jane's_ at IDEX said this latest FT-12 variant was completed about one year ago and that a "Chinese customer" has only purchased a small quantity.

Looking to add value to their precision-guided bomb series, designers from the China Academy of Launch Technology added a "5-10 kg" rocket motor to the FT-12, according to an ALIT official.

An ALIT brochure states that a release velocity of 600-1,000 km/h, which gives the 700 kg FT-12 a maximum range of 150 km. This figure, however, would depend on the size of the rocket booster and launch altitude.

ALIT states that the FT-12 can attack fixed targets with a circular error probability (CEP) of 20 m using a GPS/INS guidance system.


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## WiderMan

Finally found a clear picture of the flir herk.

Stranger 12 is this C-130's callsign, and the Brite Star EO/IR Turret (below the chin) can track a single person from a safe height of over 12,000 ft, which is quite useful for us. The video feed from FLIR pod can also be transmitted live to the ground troops in the vicinity, according to a PDF member.

Photo by Syed Danish.

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## Rocky rock

WiderMan said:


> View attachment 379533
> 
> 
> Finally found a clear picture of the flir herk.
> 
> Stranger 12 is this C-130's callsign, and the Brite Star EO/IR Turret (below the chin) can track a single person from a safe height of over 12,000 ft, which is quite useful for us. The video feed from FLIR pod can also be transmitted live to the ground troops in the vicinity, according to a PDF member.
> 
> Photo by Syed Danish.



Do we need "Uncle SAM" approval to Convert these Bulls in to Ac-130? if ever plans to?


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## Zarvan




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## WiderMan

Rocky rock said:


> Do we need "Uncle SAM" approval to Convert these Bulls in to Ac-130? if ever plans to?




To be honest, yes we need their approval to heavily modify the herks, and congress will surely make a fuss about it and force us to abandon the program. Perks of being a superpower


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## Rocky rock

_



Why didn't Pakistan look forward to some of these? we can do apply anything on these Monsters with whole freedom._


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## WiderMan

Rocky rock said:


> _
> View attachment 379607
> Why didn't Pakistan look forward to some of these? we can do apply anything on these Monsters with whole freedom._



We didn't go for em because the C-130 fulfills our needs perfectly and we don't have funds for such big procurement's.


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## JamD

Spotted over pindi. What's up with this?

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## WiderMan

JamD said:


> Spotted over pindi. What's up with this?
> View attachment 379624



23rd march parade rehearsals.

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## monitor

22 lady cadets from Army and Navy earned paratrooping wings at the PAF Academy Risalpur.

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## fatman17

JamD said:


> Spotted over pindi. What's up with this?
> View attachment 379624



C130s will be part of 23rd march parade

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## Rocky rock

WiderMan said:


> We didn't go for em because the C-130 fulfills our needs perfectly and we don't have funds for such big procurement's.



Yea but we've only 11 Active C-130's now. by which we couldn't fulfill our requirements as we're using them for Relief Mission of any Disaster for Airborne Missions,Logistics support etc. 

They won't be enough to meet our future requirements till 2020 as they are getting aged and we're expanding our plans and changing our strategies soon our Military will acquire new Transport AC's. And i think this time we should go for Y-20 rather than old Ageing C-130's from third country!


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## khanasifm

Total 16 c130 between 6 and 21 Sqn but some are getting new wings and being overhauled to get additional life of 10/15 years

http://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/pakistan-c-130-fleet-upgrade-program

http://www.airforce-technology.com/news/newsrockwell-to-upgrade-pakistans-c-130-fleet-4789227

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## Windjammer

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> In pakistan---there might be ' some good news ' coming our way.
> 
> Before the other party could tell me what it was---I told them to stop---I don't want to know what it is.


I wonder why some PAF pilots who were in US for the Red Flag late last year....are again going back. !!


----------



## mrrehan

Taking home some aircraft refurbished perhaps?


----------



## mzeeshanfahd

Windjammer said:


> I wonder why some PAF pilots who were in US for the Red Flag late last year....are again going back. !!



don't tell me those f16s are coming yet again .....

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## MystryMan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> In pakistan---there might be ' some good news ' coming our way.
> 
> Before the other party could tell me what it was---I told them to stop---I don't want to know what it is.


Sir, the good news will result in something flying to from  Or....


----------



## mingle

MystryMan said:


> Sir, the good news will result in something flying to from  Or....


Looks like more F16s ?if we get it thats good for sure .


----------



## khanasifm

Updated 

http://www.scramble.nl/orbats


----------



## khanasifm

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have my reasons for not pursuing the info---. What if the info was too sensitive---?



*
If it was sensitive I am u would not be knowing about it nor someone will even mention it *



JamD said:


> Spotted over pindi. What's up with this?
> View attachment 379624




Just Transport Wing showing off its goodies nothing else


----------



## fatman17

Windjammer said:


> I wonder why some PAF pilots who were in US for the Red Flag late last year....are again going back. !!



maybe they liked the scenery.

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## YeBeWarned

@MastanKhan sir you give the fanboys reasons to speculate F-16, F-35 ,F22 Raptor are coming

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## mingle

Starlord said:


> @MastanKhan sir you give the fanboys reasons to speculate F-16, F-35 ,F22 Raptor are coming


Still i look to find a reason to Beleive Rod stuart sung for us .

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## MastanKhan

khanasifm said:


> *If it was sensitive I am u would not be knowing about it nor someone will even mention it *



Hi,

Standing over the Golan Pass with the syrian army officers---the Syrian businessman waved his hands towards israel andstated---" what if the scumbag israelis chose to attack this side. The Syrian Colonel laughed and pointed out the positions of the hidden anti aircraft missiles and Heavy guns hidden in the sides of the mountains---and said if they do---that is what we have waiting for them ".

The rest is history---. Young man---you are so innocent.

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## MastanKhan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Standing over the Golan Pass with the syrian army officers---the Syrian businessman waved his hands towards israel andstated---" what if the scumbag israelis chose to attack this side. The Syrian Colonel laughed and pointed out the positions of the hidden anti aircraft missiles and Heavy guns hidden in the sides of the mountains---and said if they do---that is what we have waiting for them ".
> 
> The rest is history---. Young man---you are so innocent.



@Army research 

Hi,

You rated my post---. On your profile I saw your age to be 16---.

So---what do you know about what I posted?

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## Army research

MastanKhan said:


> @Army research
> 
> Hi,
> 
> You rated my post---. On your profile I saw your age to be 16---.
> 
> So---what do you know about what I posted?


Ah sir I've been mocked Alot regarding my age, well ever since I was a kid I've been devouring military history books and reading articles upon articles. I've especially researched Alot on modern wars and ongoing conflicts and tension (like the Golan heights ). Even though I'm young you'll find me to be quite researched sir and I found your post to be quite good. Not all teenagers are well teens , I'm the kind when my friends were reading 50 shades of grey, I was reading Peter simkins the great war



MastanKhan said:


> @Army research
> 
> Hi,
> 
> You rated my post---. On your profile I saw your age to be 16---.
> 
> So---what do you know about what I posted?


Please don't judge me on my age

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## MastanKhan

Army research said:


> Ah sir I've been mocked Alot regarding my age, well ever since I was a kid I've been devouring military history books and reading articles upon articles. I've especially researched Alot on modern wars and ongoing conflicts and tension (like the Golan heights ). Even though I'm young you'll find me to be quite researched sir and I found your post to be quite good. Not all teenagers are well teens , I'm the kind when my friends were reading 50 shades of grey, I was reading Peter simkins the great war
> 
> 
> Please don't judge me on my age




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eli_Cohen

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## Army research

MastanKhan said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eli_Cohen


Thank you sir honestly this was something very informative. The man was a pure genius and the fact that he was so easily able to do so highly amuses me. 
Kudos

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## MastanKhan

Army research said:


> Thank you sir honestly this was something very informative. The man was a pure genius and the fact that he was so easily able to do so highly amuses me.
> Kudos



Hi,

And that is the reality---. Everybody---who has some information---wants to share it---they want to talk---because knowing it shows how powerful they are---and without sharing it---they cannot impress others---.

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## Thorough Pro

Only if people knew the value of surprise and secrecy in military tactics



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Standing over the Golan Pass with the syrian army officers---the Syrian businessman waved his hands towards israel andstated---" what if the scumbag israelis chose to attack this side. The Syrian Colonel laughed and pointed out the positions of the hidden anti aircraft missiles and Heavy guns hidden in the sides of the mountains---and said if they do---that is what we have waiting for them ".
> 
> The rest is history---. Young man---you are so innocent.

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## HRK

_PR No.208 _Abu Dhabi: February 19, 2017

Rana Tanveer Hussain Federal Minister for _Defence Produuction_ held a meeting with _Dr. Muhammad Said El Assar Minister for Military Production of Egypt._ Rana Tanveer Hussain is on 05 visit to UAE to attend International Defence Exhibition IDEX-2017 on invitation of Defence Minister of UAE. Pakistan’s Ambassador to UAE Mr Muazzam Ahmed Khan and Commodore Arshad M. Khan Joint Secretary Foreign Collaboration Ministry of Defence Production were also present in the meeting.
During the meeting with _Dr. Muhammad Said El Assar, matters of enhanced defence cooperation between the two countries came under discussion._

Other matters of bilateral importance were also discussed. _Dr. Assar said that Egypt is ready to expand defence ties with Pakistan. Two sides agreed to enhance cooperation between the two brotherly countries _to face contemporary challenges besetting the Islamic Ummah. They also expressed the desire for collaboration in joint production of defence equipment and showed agreement to exchange expert level delegations to work out modalities for future cooperation.

http://www.pid.gov.pk/?p=35116
===============
Guys keep eye on this development

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## fatman17

HRK said:


> _PR No.208 _Abu Dhabi: February 19, 2017
> 
> Rana Tanveer Hussain Federal Minister for _Defence Produuction_ held a meeting with _Dr. Muhammad Said El Assar Minister for Military Production of Egypt._ Rana Tanveer Hussain is on 05 visit to UAE to attend International Defence Exhibition IDEX-2017 on invitation of Defence Minister of UAE. Pakistan’s Ambassador to UAE Mr Muazzam Ahmed Khan and Commodore Arshad M. Khan Joint Secretary Foreign Collaboration Ministry of Defence Production were also present in the meeting.
> During the meeting with _Dr. Muhammad Said El Assar, matters of enhanced defence cooperation between the two countries came under discussion._
> 
> Other matters of bilateral importance were also discussed. _Dr. Assar said that Egypt is ready to expand defence ties with Pakistan. Two sides agreed to enhance cooperation between the two brotherly countries _to face contemporary challenges besetting the Islamic Ummah. They also expressed the desire for collaboration in joint production of defence equipment and showed agreement to exchange expert level delegations to work out modalities for future cooperation.
> 
> http://www.pid.gov.pk/?p=35116
> ===============
> Guys keep eye on this development



when it comes to Egypt and UAE, don't expect anything.

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## dexter

*Interview of Flt. Lt. Amir Ali Shariff at Sargodha Base on 14th December, 1971 he was in 11 SQD flying F-6 when he shot down IAF MIG-21 over Shakargarh sector.*


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## fatman17



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## fatman17



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## fatman17



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## Windjammer

F-7PG deployment on the highest airfield in Pakistan, Skardu.

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## Advocate Pakistan

Seems the 23rd March celebrations are going to be bigger this time. Yesterday (March 17th 2017) sighted multiple PAF jets formations over Islamabad. More than every previous year's.
Same case today.
What's so special this time?


----------



## fatman17

Zohaib Advocate said:


> Seems the 23rd March celebrations are going to be bigger this time. Yesterday (March 17th 2017) sighted multiple PAF jets formations over Islamabad. More than every previous year's.
> Same case today.
> What's so special this time?


Nothing l think. Maybe the budget for the parade has increased.


----------



## Advocate Pakistan

fatman17 said:


> Nothing l think. Maybe the budget for the parade has increased.


Might be because of some foreign delegates coming they want to show off more. Unfortunately, the navy can't show off the 50 years old frigates at the parade so our ministry of defence feels some shame.

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## The Fist

Vision Project: PAF develops indigenous command system and simulators

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan air force has developed its own new command system and modern simulators for pilots’ training. PAF has manufactured this new command system relying solely on the local resources, 

Several other milestones have also been achieved in the defence sector under Project Vision. Acting upon the policy of self-reliance in defence, PAF is achieving milestones after milestones. Modern effective command system and simulators for pilots’ training have been developed under Project Vision.






Pakistan had begun its road to self-reliance after sanctions were imposed on it in result of the nuclear capability testing. Professional engineers and IT professionals were picked to make a unit and they were told to develop their own command system.

Navy and military are also benefiting from PAF’s expertise. The use of modern simulators has helped bringing down the number of air accidents considerably.






PAF officials told that Vision Project has achieved several milestones. They said that the day is not far when Pakistan army will be relying completely on weapons made in Pakistan.





https://timesofislamabad.com/vision...ous-command-system-and-simulators/2017/03/22/

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## fatman17



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## khanasifm

*During 23 March 2017 parade PAF for the first time disclosed RAAD-II where range has increased by 200 km for max of 550km for air launched version from 350*

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## fatman17

RAAD II


----------



## Vengeful One

Reports states that Pakistan has retired all it's F-7Ps except one or two squadrons.

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## Rocky rock

Vengeful One said:


> Reports states that Pakistan has retired all it's F-7Ps except one or two squadrons.



Yes it's right 2 squadrons left soon which will be replace by jf-17 block 3.

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## fatman17

Vengeful One said:


> Reports states that Pakistan has retired all it's F-7Ps except one or two squadrons.


Which reports


----------



## ZedZeeshan

fatman17 said:


> Which reports


i am also thinking which report..!


----------



## Windjammer

Vengeful One said:


> Reports states that Pakistan has retired all it's F-7Ps except one or two squadrons.





Rocky rock said:


> Yes it's right 2 squadrons left soon which will be replace by jf-17 block 3.


That's incredible as the F-7PGs are reportedly to serve for another decade or so and the F-7Ps actually participated in flypast just yesterday.


----------



## Vengeful One

fatman17 said:


> Which reports


Scramble.nl



Windjammer said:


> That's incredible as the F-7PGs are reportedly to serve for another decade or so and the F-7Ps actually participated in flypast just yesterday.


Not F-7PGs but F-7Ps also 1-2 F-7P squadrons still active.


----------



## Rocky rock

Windjammer said:


> That's incredible as the F-7PGs are reportedly to serve for another decade or so and the F-7Ps actually participated in flypast just yesterday.



My uncle is Senior Warrant officer. he's in GHQ Islamabad.i am just saying what he just told me few days back.


----------



## Windjammer

Vengeful One said:


> Scramble.nl
> 
> 
> Not F-7PGs but F-7Ps also 1-2 F-7P squadrons still active.





Rocky rock said:


> My uncle is Senior Warrant officer. he's in GHQ Islamabad.i am just saying what he just told me few days back.


After No 14 converting to JF-17s, Officially there's only one squadron operating the F-7Ps for now.


----------



## khanasifm

Windjammer said:


> After No 14 converting to JF-17s, Officially there's only one squadron operating the F-7Ps for now.


*
No 18 which flew for the last time in 23 March parade, next sqn to be replaced by JF next year. That means all new pilots will go to Mirage and PG sqn after k8 fighter conversion.*


----------



## Windjammer

khanasifm said:


> *No 18 which flew for the last time in 23 March parade, next sqn to be replaced by JF next year. That means all new pilots will go to Mirage and PG sqn after k8 fighter conversion.*


Interestingly those F-7s had No-14 squadron insignia.


----------



## khanasifm

Windjammer said:


> Interestingly those F-7s had No-14 squadron insignia.




14 converted last month pics are older


----------



## fatman17

C4iSR: Air

LIMA 2017: Aselsan debuts 'anti-drone jammer' system, targets Asia-Pacific countries

Ridzwan Rahmat, Langkawi - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

24 March 2017

Key PointsAselsan has developed a man-portable system designed to incapacitate hostile unmanned aerial vehiclesSystem has been developed against the backdrop of a proliferation in small commercial off-the-shelf UAV systems

An Aselsan representative demonstrating usage of the IHASAVAR 'anti-drone' system at LIMA 2017. (Aselsan)

Turkish defence company Aselsan has unveiled a man-portable 'anti-drone jammer' system at the Langkawi International Maritime and Aerospace (LIMA) 2017 exhibition, and is positioning the product for the export market for the first time, a company official told Jane's.

The system, which has been developed to protect high-security facilities, such as military bases and airports from rotary-wing and fixed-wing unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs), is designed to disrupt remote control, data link, and satellite navigation frequencies, which will effectively render an offending UAV uncontrollable.

According to an Aselsan representative who spoke toJane's at the LIMA exhibition, the system has been developed relatively quickly, over a period of six months, in response to the growing threats posed by the proliferation of commercial UAVs.

"Aselsan analysed that developing a cost-effective, man-portable, and ergonomic solution that doesn't need any sensor systems to disrupt hostile drones, would meet the high expectations of its present and future customers," said Ertugul Nacak, account manager at Aselsan's radar and electronic warfare systems.

Known as the IHASAVAR, the system consists of one 11.5 kg backpack that houses two lithium-ion batteries, and a handheld 2 kg 'rifle', which features a directional antenna that will be aimed at hostile UAVs. According to specifications provided by the company, the system can operate in temperatures that range from -30°C to 50°C and features an operation time of about 1.5 hours.

The IHASAVAR system is currently in use with the Turkish Armed Forces, and the company is currently eyeing the wider Asia-Pacific region as a potential market for the system.

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## Raider 21

khanasifm said:


> *No 18 which flew for the last time in 23 March parade, next sqn to be replaced by JF next year. That means all new pilots will go to Mirage and PG sqn after k8 fighter conversion.*


No.18 Sharpshooters is still an OCU squadron, all the studs will have to go through it before going to Mirages, F-7PGs and recently F-16s (a few Flying Officers are flying the jet these days).


----------



## Talon

khanasifm said:


> *No 18 which flew for the last time in 23 March parade, next sqn to be replaced by JF next year. That means all new pilots will go to Mirage and PG sqn after k8 fighter conversion.*


Since a last few courses,2 or 3 guys from every course are being to sent F-SOLA after EFCC...No 18 is an OCU and it will continue to operate F7Ps AND FT7s until a dual seater of JFT is inducted...
And as far as i remember last year No 20 CHEETAHS took part in the flypast and not NO.18..
PEACE...!



Knuckles said:


> No.18 Sharpshooters is still an OCU squadron, all the studs will have to go through it before going to Mirages, F-7PGs and recently F-16s (a few Flying Officers are flying the jet these days).


After FCU(on k8) pilots are either sent to F7,mirage or F16 for OCU...those who go on mirages or F16 go through another short course aka EFCC and have nothing to do with F7...so it is not compulsory and practically not gonna happen that u have to essentially do an F7 conversion prior to going to Mirage..


----------



## Windjammer

khanasifm said:


> 14 converted last month pics are older


----------



## khanasifm

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 386571



14 Sqn f7s may have some hours left so distributed to 18 Sqn but still carrying 14 logo similarly no 5 Sqn mirages were distributed among other squadrons


----------



## Raider 21

Hodor said:


> Since a last few courses,2 or 3 guys from every course are being to sent F-SOLA after EFCC...No 18 is an OCU and it will continue to operate F7Ps AND FT7s until a dual seater of JFT is inducted...
> And as far as i remember last year No 20 CHEETAHS took part in the flypast and not NO.18..
> PEACE...!
> 
> 
> After FCU(on k8) pilots are either sent to F7,mirage or F16 for OCU...those who go on mirages or F16 go through another short course aka EFCC and have nothing to do with F7...so it is not compulsory and practically not gonna happen that u have to essentially do an F7 conversion prior to going to Mirage..


Interesting. May I ask what is the EFCC course ?? Just asking out of curiosity...


----------



## Talon

Knuckles said:


> Interesting. May I ask what is the EFCC course ?? Just asking out of curiosity...


Enhanced Fighter Conversion Course...


----------



## litman

sqn ldr zahid of air defence has suffered from brain hemorrhage on 24 march and is in serious condition in cmh rwp. he needs prayers.

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## ZedZeeshan

litman said:


> sqn ldr zahid of air defence has suffered from brain hemorrhage on 24 march and is in serious condition in cmh rwp. he needs prayers.


May All Mighty ALLLAH gives his good health. Speedy recovery..


----------



## Mugwop

Windjammer said:


> Interestingly those F-7s had No-14 squadron insignia.


Windjammer what do you think about SABR Aesa?


----------



## Khafee

Mugwop said:


> Windjammer what do you think about *SABR Aesa*?


It's capabilities, or is it coming anytime soon i.e. induction time-frame?


----------



## Mugwop

Khafee said:


> It's capabilities, or is it coming anytime soon i.e. induction time-frame?


Alot of Pakistanis think it's useless for PAF. What do you think?


----------



## Tank131

I dont think any Pakistani thinks its useless for PAF, I think they (probably correctly) believe the US would never provide it to Pakistan.

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## The Fist

*Local University Develops Pakistan’s First Ever Phased Array Radar*
HAAMIZ AHMED

1 MIN AGO



0Share
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Capital University of Science & Technology (CUST), Islamabad has recently conducted a field trial for Pakistan’s first ever Phased Array Radar.

Pioneered under Controls and Signal Processing Research (CASPR) department of CUST, the radar will be used for air surveillance.

*Next Step in Radar Evolution*
Radars are usually shown as large dish rotating antennas. However, newer radars move their radio beams electronically. This is not easy to accomplish as it requires an accuracy of one billionth of a second. Having done that, CUST’s achievement is nothing short of phenomenal, at least on a national level.

Professor Aamer Iqbal Bhatti and his former PhD student from a government organization worked out the plan for designing and developing a a prototype for the Phased Array Radar at CUST. The government organization approved the funding and the professor assembled a team to undertake this project.

*Project History and Details*
In the next few years, the professor with the help of his team designed the radar system and assigned the subsystems of the radar to various experts. Dr Inam Ilahi Rana of Bismillah Electronics, considered a legend on microwaves (the ones from the electromagnetic spectrum, not the appliance) undertook the microwave subsystem of the radar.

A new company in the field of signal processing, called Renzym, worked on the signal processing module of the Phase Array Radar.

Because of regime changes the project did not get support from sponsors. Subsequently it faced financial problems as well but the Professor and his students managed to keep the project going.

*First Field Test at Mohammad Ali Jinnah University*
The first field test was conducted at the rooftop of Mohammad Ali Jinnah University in 2011. The test was successful but it failed to solve the financial problems that plagued the project. Bismillah Electronics and Renzym did not back off on the project despite the problems and the project continued.

The circuits and signal processing modules were ready by 2016 and required testing. The sponsor for the project provided a good testing team that worked for a whole year with the Professor and his project partners. The work has finally concluded and the project is ready.

The Phase Array Radar will help Pakistan Army, Pakistan Air Force and Pakistan Navy. It will be able to benefit other interested and relevant parties as well.


Capital University of Science & Technology (CUST), Islamabad has recently conducted a field trial for Pakistan’s first ever Phased Array Radar.

Pioneered under Controls and Signal Processing Research (CASPR) department of CUST, the radar will be used for air surveillance.

*Next Step in Radar Evolution*
Radars are usually shown as large dish rotating antennas. However, newer radars move their radio beams electronically. This is not easy to accomplish as it requires an accuracy of one billionth of a second. Having done that, CUST’s achievement is nothing short of phenomenal, at least on a national level.

Professor Aamer Iqbal Bhatti and his former PhD student from a government organization worked out the plan for designing and developing a a prototype for the Phased Array Radar at CUST. The government organization approved the funding and the professor assembled a team to undertake this project.

*Project History and Details*
In the next few years, the professor with the help of his team designed the radar system and assigned the subsystems of the radar to various experts. Dr Inam Ilahi Rana of Bismillah Electronics, considered a legend on microwaves (the ones from the electromagnetic spectrum, not the appliance) undertook the microwave subsystem of the radar.

A new company in the field of signal processing, called Renzym, worked on the signal processing module of the Phase Array Radar.

Because of regime changes the project did not get support from sponsors. Subsequently it faced financial problems as well but the Professor and his students managed to keep the project going.

*First Field Test at Mohammad Ali Jinnah University*
The first field test was conducted at the rooftop of Mohammad Ali Jinnah University in 2011. The test was successful but it failed to solve the financial problems that plagued the project. Bismillah Electronics and Renzym did not back off on the project despite the problems and the project continued.

The circuits and signal processing modules were ready by 2016 and required testing. The sponsor for the project provided a good testing team that worked for a whole year with the Professor and his project partners. The work has finally concluded and the project is ready.

The Phase Array Radar will help Pakistan Army, Pakistan Air Force and Pakistan Navy. It will be able to benefit other interested and relevant parties as well.

https://propakistani.pk/2017/03/27/...lops-pakistans-first-ever-phased-array-radar/

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## Zarvan




----------



## Basel

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=819272661562017&id=100004378713340


----------



## fatman17

Where is this book available

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## fatman17



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## fatman17

ACM as a young cadet

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## fatman17



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## fatman17



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## Path-Finder

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/847854758056669184

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## khanasifm

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 387877
> 
> Where is this book available


There are two books one official history 1999-2013 (av from PAF Education/Rear AHQ) and one from key publishing which is still not available but will be on Amazon / key publishing website


----------



## fatman17

khanasifm said:


> There are two books one official history 1999-2013 (av from PAF Education/Rear AHQ) and one from key publishing which is still not available but will be on Amazon / key publishing website


How does one get the official history 1999 - 2013?


----------



## fatman17



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## khanasifm

Lockheed Martin Fort Worth TX Facility after the entering it on the LHS you will see a display in the wall with Paf shield from ACM Tanveer (if i remember correctly) presented to LM, not seen any other AF displayed


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## fatman17

Blast from the past

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## fatman17



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## fatman17

Also served as ACM ZIM Air Force

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## fatman17

Industry Press Releases

Rockwell Collins selected for Pakistan Air Force C-130 upgrade

Rockwell Collins (USA) - Defence Industry Press Releases

31 March 2017

Flight2 to be installed on C-130E and C-130B aircraft

Company to provide avionics, training and technical support

Work will be performed in Pakistan

CEDAR RAPIDS, Iowa (Mar. 31, 2017) Rockwell Collins Flight2 avionics system has been selected by the Pakistan Air Force through the Foreign Military Sales Office, Warner Robins, Georgia, for the upgrade of up to 11 C-130E and 5 C-130B aircraft.

Rockwell Collins will provide the integrated avionics suite along with training and technical support during installation. Additional support includes consolidated flight manuals, checklists and maintenance supplements required to operate and maintain the fleet.

Pakistan Air Force pilots will experience greater situational awareness and communications capabilities with the highly advanced avionics onboard these aircraft, said Dave Schreck, vice president and general manager of Airborne Solutions for Rockwell Collins. Through our work with the Pakistan Air Force, we look forward to continuing our long legacy of helping C-130 pilots achieve their missions with these important upgrades.

The Rockwell Collins Flight2 avionics system will provide the Pakistan C-130 aircraft with unrestricted access to global airspace by meeting current Communication, Navigation, Surveillance/Air Traffic Management airspace requirements.

Included in the avionics upgrade is a full glass cockpit with new primary flight displays, Required Navigation Performance Area Navigation flight management system with High Altitude Release Point and Computed Air Release Point precision airdrop software. Additional equipment includes a modern digital autopilot, Very High Frequency, High Frequency, and SATCOM communications, navigation sensors, and safety and surveillance systems including Weather Radar, Traffic Collision Avoidance System, Terrain Awareness and Warning System and digital map. The upgrade will provide the Pakistan Air Force with state-of-the-art capabilities consistent with the worlds leading C-130 operators.

Work will be performed in Pakistan and is expected to be complete by Dec. 31, 2020.

About Rockwell Collins

Rockwell Collins is a pioneer in the development and deployment of innovative aviation and high-integrity solutions for both commercial and government applications. Our expertise in flight deck avionics, cabin electronics, mission communications, simulation and training, and information management is delivered by a global workforce, and a service and support network that crosses more than 150 countries. To find out more, please visit www.rockwellcollins.com.


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## fatman17

Airforce Technology

Analysis

ONJUL 5 2010








A JF-17 on display at the IDEAS 2008 defence exhibition in Karachi, Pakistan.

A JF-17 is parked during flight operations at a Pakistan Air Force airbase.

A JF-17 stands near a runway at a Pakistani Air Force airbase.

JF 17 - Pakistan's Pride

A new aircraft programme for Pakistan has brought benefits not only to the air force but to its aerospace industry. Air Commodore Azfar A Khan (retd) describes how and why the aircraft that marks a milestone in the aviation history of Pakistan was developed.

When the time came to replace its large, obsolete fleet with modern, lightweight, multi-role combat aircraft, the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) opted for a low-cost solution and not pricier Western designs. The result was an aircraft that could be manufactured in Pakistan in collaboration with the People's Republic of China - the lightweight fighter bomber JF-17 Thunder.

Developed by the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex and Chengdu Aircraft Industry, China, production is being undertaken at Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, Kamra.

The PAF officially inducted its first JF-17 squadron on 18 February this year. Initially, about 10 to12 squadrons are to be produced, but the PAF will ultimately acquire up to 250 pieces. From 2011, 15-16 aircraft will be produced annually, which may eventually be increased to 25 per year.

It is hoped the JF-17 will provide a low-cost replacement for a number of developing countries currently operating ageing MiG-21/F-7 and F-5 aircraft, such as Azerbaijan, Algeria, Sudan, Zimbabwe, Bangladesh, Egypt, Iran, Lebanon, Malaysia, Morocco, Myanmar, Sri Lanka and Nigeria. Some of these nations have already confirmed orders.

Specification

The JF-17 is powered by a single Russian RD-93 turbofan engine, a widely used model known to be reliable. The turbofan design gives more thrust and significantly lower specific fuel consumption than a turbojet engine. The engine has gained attention for its acceleration and quick response, with test pilots describing reactions as "virtually instantaneous". Using a single engine also significantly reduces both maintenance time and cost.

"Initially, about 10 to12 squadrons are to be produced, but the PAF will ultimately acquire up to 250 pieces."

The aircraft can be armed with up to 3,629kg (8,000lb) of air-to-air and air-to-ground ordnance along with other equipment mounted externally on the aircraft. The glass cockpit, meanwhile, incorporates an electronic flight instrument system (EFIS) and a wide-angle head-up display (HUD), and it has a minimum total field of view of 25 degrees. The EFIS provides basic flight information, as well as tactical, engine, fuel, electrical, hydraulics, flight control and environment control systems information. The HUD and multi-function display (MFD) are 'smart' (meaning they can be configured by the pilot to show any of the available information), the avionics system is all-digital and fully integrated, and the solid state avionics is of a modular design.

Several radars were tested onboard prototypes of the JF-17, including Israel's Elta EL/M-2032, Russia's Phazotron Super Komar, Italy's FIAR Grifo-S7, Brittain's GEC-Marconi Blue Hawk and France's Thomson-CSF RC-400. However, a Chinese radar was selected for the first batch of craft, although Italy and France are in the running for future contracts, according to reports.

The software written for the avionics comprises more than one million lines of instructions, making use of the concept of open architecture. This software is written using the popular civilian C++ programming language, rather than a military language such as Ada, to better utilise the large number of civilian software programmers available in the market.

Building

The production of JF-17 parts and components begun as far back as 2005 and manufacture of its sub-assemblies started in 2008. The production of major assemblies is undertaken by Pakistan's large public sector units (PSUs), while parts and components are provided by private-sector suppliers.

Pakistan has a highly skilled and trained technical workforce - a prerequisite for the manufacture of an indigenous aircraft - that can be cheaper to employ when compared with other areas around the world. For example, some of the workforce deployed for the production of the JF-17 are retired personnel from the Pakistan Air Force. This manpower is available at a rate of $10 per hour whereas the international market can charge up to $45 per hour.

"The total cost of the JF-17 programme is US$500m."

It is this cost-effectiveness that led the PAF to take on the task of making its own aircraft. The unit production cost of a JF-17 translates into approximately US$15 million apiece whereas a multi-role aircraft in the international market is available for US$50m a piece. Overall, the total cost of the JF-17 programme is US$500m, divided equally between China and Pakistan.

Furthermore, Pakistan will earn a good exchange rate through the sale of this aircraft and its associated spares to other countries, keep its retired aircraft workers employed, and provide the country's internal market with new opportunities to build technologies and develop new innovations.


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## fatman17

The Royal Air Force’s Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Sir Stephen Hillier, visited the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) last week. During his three-day trip from March 30 to April 1 he spent time with the PAF CAS, Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman and was briefed on the PAF’s ongoing fight against terrorism, which is conducted under Operation Zarb-e-Azb.

On March 31 Hillier visited the newly named PAF Academy Asghar Khan (formerly Risalpur) where he was chief guest at a graduation ceremony for the 118th Combat Support Course and 39th Basic Learning Pilots Course. During his speech, the RAF CAS said: “the RAF made a valuable contribution towards the development of PAF especially in its early years – a contribution that was deeply appreciated.” He went on to add: “the relations between two countries and, of course the two air forces, will continue to strengthen even further.”

During a visit to Mushaf Air Base the following day, the RAF CAS reinforced his sentiment when he announced that the PAF’s 9 Multirole Squadron ‘Griffins’, which flies F-16A/Bs, would twin with the RAF’s No 9 ‘Bats’ Squadron currently flying Tornado GR4s. It is unclear what the twinning will mean, given the high level of operational activity that the two units are involved in. Both squadrons are participating in ongoing operations against terrorism – the PAF in the FATA region of Pakistan and the RAF over Syria and Iraq.

Air Chief Marshal Aman said: “No 9 Squadrons of both the air forces have a rich legacy and have been frontline squadrons since their inception. The twinning of these squadrons would help us in learn from each other and strengthen our cordial relations.”

While addressing the occasion ACM Hillier said: “The Pakistan Air Force is respected world over due to its sound professionalism and deeply respected in the [United Kingdom].” He added: “The twinning of these renowned squadrons will further develop their capabilities and lay a foundation to build on the legacy of our predecessors.”

Earlier in the day, both the air chiefs flew a mission in separate 9 Squadron F-16Bs. It was the first time that a foreign CAS had participated in a joint mission with a PAF CAS. Alan Warnes

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## Tank131

Does he mean they will be "sister squadrons" where they participate in exercises and interact on regular basis?


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## fatman17

Tank131 said:


> Does he mean they will be "sister squadrons" where they participate in exercises and interact on regular basis?


Pilot exchange programs


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## Rocky rock

Tank131 said:


> Does he mean they will be "sister squadrons" where they participate in exercises and interact on regular basis?



Exactly!


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## Tank131

fatman17 said:


> Pilot exchange programs



Im assuming that is sarcasm.


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## fatman17

Tank131 said:


> Im assuming that is sarcasm.


No l was serious.


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## fatman17



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## niaz

My Arabic is rudimentary. Apparently it says that Saiful Azam shot down 3 Israel fighters in 72 hours flying Jordanian Air force Hawker Hunter in 1967. Saiful Azam is the only pilot to do so and his exceptional brave feat will be remembered among the air forces of Pakistan, Iraq & Jordan.

My sincere thanks to Hon. Fatman 17 for posting this priceless memento of the PAF history.

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## Zarvan

Yesterday or may be a day before Attaullah Esa Khan khelvi was at PAC and guess what he was there to entertain. It was French delegation. Enough said !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Rocky rock

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 389618



*it's saying. in 1967 PAF pilot Saif-aldein-al azam was in Jordan on a mission to train Jordanian pilots. and when Arab-israel War broke out he flew Jordanian Aircraft with his counterparts to the base of "Habniyah" in iraq after israel bombed the airbases of Jordan. to fly from their with the "Hawker hunter" and shot down three latest israeli jets in 3 days of aerial combat. He became the only pilot who shot down 3 israeli jets within 72 hours in Air to Air Combat and this record still exist till this day, Saif al azam was the only pilot in the world who flew aircrafts of three different countries Pakistani Jordanian and Irqai Aircrafts. who was honored by jordan and irqa for his heroism and courage.
However despite his remarkable military achievements and glorious services to the Arabs, he is unknown and has not been given the right to be in media.*

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## Danishwer

When I am searching for ebooks I found something exciting.

F16 Block 50/52+ Manual:

Just Google it " f16 CD manual"
"Sr71 manual"
I'm not giving links, as it may be unlawful to post direct link here as per PDF policy?


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## Chak Bamu

We should remember that Honorable Saif-ul-Azam retired as part of Bangladesh Airforce, and that might be a record of sorts - Flying for 4 airforces.

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## Zarvan

Chak Bamu said:


> We should remember that Honorable Saif-ul-Azam retired as part of Bangladesh Airforce, and that might be a record of sorts - Flying for 4 airforces.


Welcome Back Sir G !!!!!!!!!!!!!! You vanished for really long time 

By the way this is epic

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## CriticalThought

Zarvan said:


> Yesterday or may be a day before Attaullah Esa Khan khelvi was at PAC and guess what he was there to entertain. It was French delegation. Enough said !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Nopes, not enough said  I wanna know more  Like what were the French doing at PAC because they certainly didn't understand a single world of what Mr. Esa Khelvi was singing.



Zarvan said:


> Welcome Back Sir G !!!!!!!!!!!!!! You vanished for really long time
> 
> By the way this is epic



May Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'aala give Guidance to our government so they make available all the required resources for PAF. Buying 5th generation planes is going to cost a lot of money. We have taken many loans for various purposes. This is one goal for which I don't mind taking billions of dollars in loans.


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## Zarvan

CriticalThought said:


> Nopes, not enough said  I wanna know more  Like what were the French doing at PAC because they certainly didn't understand a single world of what Mr. Esa Khelvi was singing.


One of the guys among there delegation has senior post at Dassault Aviation

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## CriticalThought

Zarvan said:


> One of the guys among there delegation has senior post at Dassault Aviation



I hope they don't make them see rose gardens in those Mirage-2000-9s. We need to move forward towards 5th generation and France as yet does not wield any 5th gen plane. Then again, there was an MoU signed with a French company to provide maintenance tech for RD-93 engine. Hoping for the best...


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## HRK

Zarvan said:


> Welcome Back Sir G !!!!!!!!!!!!!! You vanished for really long time
> 
> By the way this is epic








Jamooriat Khatre main hai ....

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## Talon

Danishwer said:


> When I am searching for ebooks I found something exciting.
> 
> F16 Block 50/52+ Manual:
> 
> Just Google it " f16 CD manual"
> "Sr71 manual"
> I'm not giving links, as it may be unlawful to post direct link here as per PDF policy?


Dude there's a whole f16 simulator available for general public in which u can almost perform anything which a real f16 can do and all its manuals,limitations and DASH is available...e.g u can bomb targets in the simulator just like a real f16(all procedures to be performed accordingly from startup to the pickle release) and I use it myself whenever i get the time


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## Abrams

what type of stand off weapons does Pakistan air force use? what type of guided munitions? any domestic guided munitions in development?


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## ZedZeeshan

Abrams said:


> what type of stand off weapons does Pakistan air force use? what type of guided munitions? any domestic guided munitions in development?


why dont you google and also let us know..

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## razgriz19

fatman17 said:


> The Royal Air Force’s Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Sir Stephen Hillier, visited the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) last week. During his three-day trip from March 30 to April 1 he spent time with the PAF CAS, Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman and was briefed on the PAF’s ongoing fight against terrorism, which is conducted under Operation Zarb-e-Azb.
> 
> On March 31 Hillier visited the newly named PAF Academy Asghar Khan (formerly Risalpur) where he was chief guest at a graduation ceremony for the 118th Combat Support Course and 39th Basic Learning Pilots Course. During his speech, the RAF CAS said: “the RAF made a valuable contribution towards the development of PAF especially in its early years – a contribution that was deeply appreciated.” He went on to add: “the relations between two countries and, of course the two air forces, will continue to strengthen even further.”
> 
> During a visit to Mushaf Air Base the following day, the RAF CAS reinforced his sentiment when he announced that the PAF’s 9 Multirole Squadron ‘Griffins’, which flies F-16A/Bs, would twin with the RAF’s No 9 ‘Bats’ Squadron currently flying Tornado GR4s. It is unclear what the twinning will mean, given the high level of operational activity that the two units are involved in. Both squadrons are participating in ongoing operations against terrorism – the PAF in the FATA region of Pakistan and the RAF over Syria and Iraq.
> 
> Air Chief Marshal Aman said: “No 9 Squadrons of both the air forces have a rich legacy and have been frontline squadrons since their inception. The twinning of these squadrons would help us in learn from each other and strengthen our cordial relations.”
> 
> While addressing the occasion ACM Hillier said: “The Pakistan Air Force is respected world over due to its sound professionalism and deeply respected in the [United Kingdom].” He added: “The twinning of these renowned squadrons will further develop their capabilities and lay a foundation to build on the legacy of our predecessors.”
> 
> Earlier in the day, both the air chiefs flew a mission in separate 9 Squadron F-16Bs. It was the first time that a foreign CAS had participated in a joint mission with a PAF CAS. Alan Warnes
> View attachment 388919



Guess our ACM does not have an endorsement on F sola. He has to piggy back in a dual. He must have been a Mirage boy during his flying career.


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## fatman17

razgriz19 said:


> Guess our ACM does not have an endorsement on F sola. He has to piggy back in a dual. He must have been a Mirage boy during his flying career.


No he was a top gun. now a days ACMs don't fly much.


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## Talon

razgriz19 said:


> Guess our ACM does not have an endorsement on F sola. He has to piggy back in a dual. He must have been a Mirage boy during his flying career.


Any GDP who is away from regular flying and is posted in office always goes through a short conversion course whenever he starts regular flying(no matter how much he has flying hours on that aircraft) so if ACM has to fly an F16 he will have to go through that conversion again..

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## CriticalThought

Hodor said:


> Any GDP who is away from regular flying and is posted in office always goes through a short conversion course whenever he starts regular flying(no matter how much he has flying hours on that aircraft) so if ACM has to fly an F16 he will have to go through that conversion again..



The ACM is a professional through and through.

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## khanasifm

The last 2 were mirage drivers not sure about current one

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## fatman17

Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) Hurkus aircraft has completed its first missile launch with a Roketsan L-UMTAS laser-guided long-range air-to-surface anti-tank missile. The March 7 test was conducted at the Firing Test and Evaluation Group Command test range near the central Anatolian town of Konya-Karapinar. Alongside the L-UMTAS, the Hurkus will be armed with Roketsan UMTAS infrared-guided anti-tank missiles, Cirit laser-guided 70 mm rockets as well as bombs upgraded with Teber precision guidance kits; has five stores pylons and will be able to carry a payload of 1,500 kg. As well as operating as a basic trainer, the aircraft will be used for light assault and armed reconnaissance missions in the counter-insurgency role. The type is planned to enter into service in 2018.


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## mrrehan

*The US Air Force just demonstrated an autonomous F-16 that can fly and take out a target all by itself*.

In its quest to meet and exceed the challenges of the future, the US Air Force has been increasingly looking to unmanned systems — and a recent test proved that an unmanned F-16 can now think and fight on its own.

The US has used F-16 drones before as realistic targets for the F-35 to blow up in training, but on Monday it announced fully autonomous air-to-air and ground strike capabilities as a new capability thanks to joint research between the service and Lockheed Martin’s legendary Skunkworks.

Not only did the F-16 drone figure out the best way to get there and execute a ground strike mission by itself, it was interrupted by an air threat, responded, and kept going.

“We’ve not only shown how an Unmanned Combat Air Vehicle can perform its mission when things go as planned, but also how it will react and adapt to unforeseen obstacles along the way,” said Capt. Andrew Petry of the Air Force Research Laboratory in a Lockheed Martin statement.

But having F-16 drones plan and fly their own missions is only part of a much larger picture. The future of the US Air Force may well depend on advanced platforms like F-35s commanding fleets of unmanned drones which can act as additional ears, eyes, and shooters in the sky during battles.

The Air Force has what’s called an “open mission system” where it designs all platforms to network together and share information. Essentially, even an unmanned drone will have decision-grade data fed to it from everything from satellites in the sky to radars on the ground.

Lockheed Martin calls it the “loyal wingman” program, where drone systems like old F-16s can seamlessly network with F-35s and think on its feet.


https://www.businessinsider.com.au/...facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer-ti&r=US&IR=T

After very long time at last


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## fatman17

MOAB GBU43


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## Advocate Pakistan

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 390595
> View attachment 390596
> View attachment 390597
> 
> MOAB GBU43



After the U.S. has conducted strikes in the last week first against Syria and than Afghanistan, there is an imminent threat that they will target Pakistan too. We should talk to the Chinese (and if possible Russians too) to get some anti air systems to be deployed alongside Afghanistan border. I can bet the Chinese would be eager to know the effectiveness of their systems against the American systems. If we aren't able to down the American planes/ cruise missiles/ drones than we can congratulate them like the Abottabad episode but if do make a few hits we can always make an apology or say that these Chinese anti air systems were deployed to target ISIS or Taliban drone cameras used to spy on Pakistan army's position, unfortunately American planes got hit.

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## salman-1

Their is no imminent danger of being attacked by US. Why would they hit us, there's no Isis or daish fighting here, only so called few germs are here claiming to be there's

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## mrrehan

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 390595
> View attachment 390596
> View attachment 390597
> 
> MOAB GBU43



Two questions If we can know sir,

* Have Pakistan advised by US before attack?
* Has US targeted elements are neutralized?


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## Readerdefence

Advocate Pakistan said:


> After the U.S. has conducted strikes in the last week first against Syria and than Afghanistan, there is an imminent threat that they will target Pakistan too. We should talk to the Chinese (and if possible Russians too) to get some anti air systems to be deployed alongside Afghanistan border. I can bet the Chinese would be eager to know the effectiveness of their systems against the American systems. If we aren't able to down the American planes/ cruise missiles/ drones than we can congratulate them like the Abottabad episode but if do make a few hits we can always make an apology or say that these Chinese anti air systems were deployed to target ISIS or Taliban drone cameras used to spy on Pakistan army's position, unfortunately American planes got hit.


I think at the moment they will not be targeting Pakistan 
As they don't want the current coas to be more aggressive towards them in their 
Policies and targeting Pakistan won't help them only thing they can do is 
Keep on saying do more as they did today or yesterday with the latest White House 
Press briefing one more thing they can do is to ask India to fire more rounds on the LOC
And create more tension 
As the cpec been endorsed by the security council recently so the members 
Mean business with this endorsement it means more stake into this corridor with 
The other powers of the world


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## monitor

mrrehan said:


> Two questions If we can know sir,
> 
> * Have Pakistan advised by US before attack?
> * Has US targeted elements are neutralized?




Attack were near Pakistan border in Afghanistan not inside Pakistan so probably not necessary to inform Pakistan. 

36 Isis fighter killed in the attack. This attack were more as pshycological then tactical. They could easily use drone to destroy the mud cave.

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## fatman17

Orbital ATK has won a USAF contract to supply rocket motors for AIM-9P Sidewinder missiles. The agreement, which could reach a potential value of $67 million, covers the production and provision of motors for ordinance that will be sold to other governments under the US foreign military sales program. First developed in the 1970s, the AIM-9 has undergone significant upgrades to improve its capabilities and lethality over the years, with the present version featuring Orbital ATK’s SR116-HP-1 reduced-smoke rocket motor. Work will continue through until February 2022.


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## fatman17

mrrehan said:


> Two questions If we can know sir,
> 
> * Have Pakistan advised by US before attack?
> * Has US targeted elements are neutralized?


Probably not and according to pentagon, the IS militants were mostly ex TTP and afghan taliban who were involved in cross border attacks in Pakistan. so if we are to believe this then we should be happy that the strike took place. US NSA Gen. McMaster is due in lsld, and I'm sure that this incident will be discussed.

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## Advocate Pakistan

salman-1 said:


> Their is no imminent danger of being attacked by US. Why would they hit us, there's no Isis or daish fighting here, only so called few germs are here claiming to be there's



I believe they might not be targeting Pakistani areas with MOAB but the intensity of low key bombing and drone strikes might increase. In the past there weren't many Pakistan troops in that area, still we lost many soldiers to coalition bombing (e.g. Salala)
This time around we have huge numbers of soldiers who are present in those areas. Any increase in bombing in that area by US, through manned or unmanned aircraft will put alot of Pakistani lives in danger. Hope you're getting my point.



Readerdefence said:


> I think at the moment they will not be targeting Pakistan
> As they don't want the current coas to be more aggressive towards them in their
> Policies and targeting Pakistan won't help them only thing they can do is
> Keep on saying do more as they did today or yesterday with the latest White House
> Press briefing one more thing they can do is to ask India to fire more rounds on the LOC
> And create more tension
> As the cpec been endorsed by the security council recently so the members
> Mean business with this endorsement it means more stake into this corridor with
> The other powers of the world



Our former chiefs have set very bad precedents in regards to turning their eyes away from U.S. strikes plus our reliance on U.S. has played very well for the Americans in regards to their carrots and sticks policy.
Though general Raheel's tenure saw very few strikes. Don't know if Pakistani military took some tough stance or Obama administration was more focused on middle east?


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## CriticalThought

Advocate Pakistan said:


> Our former chiefs have set very bad precedents in regards to turning their eyes away from U.S. strikes plus our reliance on U.S. has played very well for the Americans in regards to their carrots and sticks policy.
> Though general Raheel's tenure saw very few strikes. Don't know if Pakistani military took some tough stance or Obama administration was more focused on middle east?



What do you mean former chiefs have set very bad precedents? After the Salala incident, the US supply routes were closed for months, the attack on US airbase happened destroying 8 aircraft on ground (their biggest loss since world war 2), and forward check posts were provided shoulder fired missiles that they had been requesting. Please don't spread misinformation about army chiefs. Their honor and dignity is a matter of national concern and importance. Thank you.

@The Eagle

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## ziya




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## Advocate Pakistan

CriticalThought said:


> What do you mean former chiefs have set very bad precedents? After the Salala incident, the US supply routes were closed for months, the attack on US airbase happened destroying 8 aircraft on ground (their biggest loss since world war 2), and forward check posts were provided shoulder fired missiles that they had been requesting. Please don't spread misinformation about army chiefs. Their honor and dignity is a matter of national concern and importance. Thank you.
> 
> @The Eagle



Well sir, I know the post Salala blockage of coalition supplies, but there were attacks before and after Salala which the military didn't respond to as they should have done. Especially in the latter half of last decade. I understand your emotions and attachment to the Pakistani forces, even I feel the same. But had we downed a few American drones or whatever, Salala wouldn't have happened in the first place.
Don't know about Pakistan destroying 8 American planes. Want to know more, guide me please.


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## CriticalThought

Advocate Pakistan said:


> Well sir, I know the post Salala blockage of coalition supplies, but there were attacks before and after Salala which the military didn't respond to as they should have done. Especially in the latter half of last decade. I understand your emotions and attachment to the Pakistani forces, even I feel the same. But had we downed a few American drones or whatever, Salala wouldn't have happened in the first place.
> Don't know about Pakistan destroying 8 American planes. Want to know more, guide me please.



The eight planes downed were by Afghan Taliban. But here is the rub: shortly after they released a video in which a map of the airfield was shown labelled in Urdu, instead of Pashtu!!!! It isn't official, but think about it, there were no successful attacks on airfields before and after that one.

Why would we shoot down American drones when most of them flew from bases in Pakistan and the strikes were carried out with full knowledge and confidence of the forces? As you can see, since the terrorists have be routed from their hiding places, the number of drone strikes have also dropped dramatically.

The problem with responding pre/post Salala is that when you are dealing with a larger force such as U.S. with whom you are also an ally, you are forced to given them the benefit of doubt over minor incidents. Take for example the recent bombing of Syrian Democratic Forces. Friendly fire happens. But, the past is the past. I personally do not like how the country was basically turned over to Blackwater during Musharraf's regime, and I have very low opinion of that person. Today, things are very different. I find no reason not to have full confidence in our forces and their ability to keep our best interests at the forefront.

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## fatman17

CriticalThought said:


> The eight planes downed were by Afghan Taliban. But here is the rub: shortly after they released a video in which a map of the airfield was shown labelled in Urdu, instead of Pashtu!!!! It isn't official, but think about it, there were no successful attacks on airfields before and after that one.
> 
> Why would we shoot down American drones when most of them flew from bases in Pakistan and the strikes were carried out with full knowledge and confidence of the forces? As you can see, since the terrorists have be routed from their hiding places, the number of drone strikes have also dropped dramatically.
> 
> The problem with responding pre/post Salala is that when you are dealing with a larger force such as U.S. with whom you are also an ally, you are forced to given them the benefit of doubt over minor incidents. Take for example the recent bombing of Syrian Democratic Forces. Friendly fire happens. But, the past is the past. I personally do not like how the country was basically turned over to Blackwater during Musharraf's regime, and I have very low opinion of that person. Today, things are very different. I find no reason not to have full confidence in our forces and their ability to keep our best interests at the forefront.


Downed is the wrong use here, more like destroyed on the tarmac.

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## fatman17

YL14 SDB

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## Dazzler

Did anyone in Karachi just heard a loud Sonic boom? I did about five minutes ago.


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## ZedZeeshan

Dazzler said:


> Did anyone in Karachi just heard a loud Sonic boom? I did about five minutes ago.


yes a Rickshaw was taking off ..

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## khanasifm

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 391317
> View attachment 391318
> 
> YL14 SDB



4 of these can be easily carried instead of 500 kg bomb on a single station point using multiple ejection rack


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## Dazzler

fatman17 said:


> Downed is the wrong use here, more like destroyed on the tarmac.



True, and some were totaled sitting in hangars..

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## HRK

Dazzler said:


> Did anyone in Karachi just heard a loud Sonic boom? I did about five minutes ago.



last night I also noted flying activities (If i am not wrong 17 were flying) but no sonic boom was heard


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## Readerdefence

Dazzler said:


> True, and some were totaled sitting in hangars..
> 
> View attachment 391493
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 391494
> 
> 
> View attachment 391495


What kind of aircraft? Looks like harrier to me as in the first picture the exhaust looks 
Like harrier one


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## fatman17

Readerdefence said:


> What kind of aircraft? Looks like harrier to me as in the first picture the exhaust looks
> Like harrier one


Correct


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## Dazzler

Readerdefence said:


> What kind of aircraft? Looks like harrier to me as in the first picture the exhaust looks
> Like harrier one



AV8B Harriers, Marine corps.

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## Cornered Tiger

After searching a-lot over the internet and in many magazines and books, I have not found the names of No. 4, 10, 21, 41, 83, 85 and 87 Squadrons.

By looking at their respective patches, I can assume the some of the names for them as





87 Squadron - *Dragon Flies* (The fly in the center resembles to that specie)






83 Squadron - *Kites* (The bird in the center resembles to the Kites)





10 Squadron - *Buffaloes* (The map behind the Buffalo depicts The Africa, Middle East including Turkey, South Asia, China from East Asia and Southeast Asia upto Vietnam - depicting the range for IL-78 IMO)





4 Squadron - *Eagle Eyes* (Considering how the eagle is looking at the target)

I am unable to name following two because

21 Squadron - found two different patches, don't know which one is true. 2nd seems relevant to C-130, but seen 1st one painted on a C-130




AND





41 Squadron - could not found the exact specie of the bird, too many look alikes





85 Squadron - could not identify what is exactly painted in middle





Sir @fatman17 , @Oscar , @Windjammer , @Horus , @TaimiKhan , @The Eagle , @Bilal Khan (Quwa) , @Bilal Khan 777 , @DESERT FIGHTER , @Imran Khan , @Dazzler , 
@Sulman Badshah , @Arsalan , please can you help me out. Am I right? Can anyone name them all.


----------



## fatman17

Cornered Tiger said:


> After searching a-lot over the internet and in many magazines and books, I have not found the names of No. 4, 10, 21, 41, 83, 85 and 87 Squadrons.
> 
> By looking at their respective patches, I can assume the some of the names for them as
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 87 Squadron - Dragon Flies (The fly in the center resembles to that specie)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 83 Squadron - Kites (The bird in the center resembles to the Kites)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 10 Squadron - Buffaloes (The map behind the Buffalo depicts The Africa, Middle East including Turkey, South Asia, China from East Asia and Southeast Asia upto Vietnam - depicting the range for IL-78 IMO)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 4 Squadron - Eagle Eyes (Considering how the eagle is looking at the target)
> 
> I am unable to name following two because
> 
> 21 Squadron - found two different patches, don't know which one is true. 2nd seems relevant to C-130, but seen 1st one painted on a C-130
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AND
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 41 Squadron - could not found the exact specie of the bird, too many look alikes
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 85 Squadron - could not identify what is exactly painted in middle
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sir @fatman17 , @Oscar , @Windjammer , @Horus , @TaimiKhan , @The Eagle , @Bilal Khan (Quwa) , @Bilal Khan 777 , @DESERT FIGHTER , @Imran Khan , @Dazzler , please can you help me out. Am I right? Can anyone name them all.


All sqdns starting with 8 are SAR squadrons based at major AFBs.

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## fatman17

4 sqn is the AWACS sqdn ZDK03


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## Cornered Tiger

fatman17 said:


> All sqdns starting with 8 are SAR squadrons based at major AFBs.





fatman17 said:


> 4 sqn is the AWACS sqdn ZDK03



Yes Sir, their names are missing. Do you know thier names?


----------



## fatman17

Cornered Tiger said:


> Yes Sir, their names are missing. Do you know thier names?


I have to revert to a PAF book.


----------



## Cornered Tiger

fatman17 said:


> I have to revert to a PAF book.


please Sir, if you can for my General Knowledge.

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## fatman17

Cornered Tiger said:


> please Sir, if you can for my General Knowledge.


Don't worry l will.


----------



## fatman17

81 SAR PESHAWAR, KANGAROOS 
82 SAR MUSHAF 
STALLIONS 
83 SAR MUSHAF 
EAGLES 
84 SAR MASROOR 
DOLPHINS 
85 SAR SAMUGLI 
86 SAR MIANWALI 
SWALLOW 
87 SAR MINAS

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## Cornered Tiger

fatman17 said:


> 83 SAR MUSHAF
> EAGLES


Noted Sir, Thanks. Isn't 83 deployed at Rafiqui?



fatman17 said:


> 86 SAR MIANWALI
> SWALLOW


Sir I think 86 are named as "Ababeels"



fatman17 said:


> 87 SAR MINAS





fatman17 said:


> 85 SAR SAMUGLI


Still required.


----------



## SQ8

Cornered Tiger said:


> Yes Sir, their names are missing. Do you know thier names?



21sq pegasus (that is the winged horse creature)

Globe trotters

41 is albatross or seagulls I believe

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## Rocky rock

Just spotted these 2 new things in SGD Airbase "Mushaf". Date 3.1.2017

is this Aircraft Falcon DA20?





Find this F-16 with both wings and left Stabilizer in Yellow. image date: 3.1.2017 
are they going through some kind of upgrade in "Mushaf base"?

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## fatman17

Cornered Tiger said:


> Noted Sir, Thanks. Isn't 83 deployed at Rafiqui?
> 
> 
> Sir I think 86 are named as "Ababeels"
> 
> 
> 
> Still required.


Information is from 2005 so changes are possible.

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## Cornered Tiger

Rocky rock said:


> is this Aircraft Falcon DA20?


Yup this is DA-20



Rocky rock said:


> Find this F-16 with both wings and left Stabilizer in Yellow. image date: 3.1.2017
> are they going through some kind of upgrade in "Mushaf base"?


Yeah these changes were also reported here by some guy, I don't know what is going on. I think its kinda structural upgrade with Turkish Assistance.



Oscar said:


> 41 is albatross or seagulls I believe


Albatross seems to be perfect Sir, Thanks


----------



## WarFariX

Cornered Tiger said:


> Yup this is DA-20
> 
> 
> Yeah these changes were also reported here by some guy, I don't know what is going on. I think its kinda structural upgrade with Turkish Assistance.
> 
> 
> Albatross seems to be perfect Sir, Thanks


@Bilal Khan (Quwa) I think its sun reflection . However even if it is yellow then i remember your article of May 2016 suggesting PAF might go for SLEP upgrade . What are your views ? @messiach @MastanKhan @Oscar @Windjammer

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## Readerdefence

Rocky rock said:


> Just spotted these 2 new things in SGD Airbase "Mushaf". Date 3.1.2017
> 
> is this Aircraft Falcon DA20?
> View attachment 391876
> 
> Find this F-16 with both wings and left Stabilizer in Yellow. image date: 3.1.2017
> are they going through some kind of upgrade in "Mushaf base"?
> View attachment 391877


May be a jf17


----------



## messiach

Need better resolution photographs to make an opinion.


MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) I think its sun reflection . However even if it is yellow then i remember your article of May 2016 suggesting PAF might go for SLEP upgrade . What are your views ? @messiach @MastanKhan @Oscar @Windjammer

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) I think its sun reflection . However even if it is yellow then i remember your article of May 2016 suggesting PAF might go for SLEP upgrade . What are your views ? @messiach @MastanKhan @Oscar @Windjammer


If not reflection from the sun, it might just be primer for a repaint.

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## WarFariX

Reportedly JF-17B was conducting Taxi trials in CAC .
Pic coming soon
Source : Dafeng Cao

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Zarvan

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## Zarvan

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> Reportedly JF-17B was conducting Taxi trials in CAC .
> Pic coming soon
> Source : Dafeng Cao
> 
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Zarvan


Good we need more Fighter Jets and at fast speed


----------



## Danishwer

Where we all are going


----------



## fatman17

Danishwer said:


> Where we all are going


You tell us


----------



## Arsalan

Danishwer said:


> Where we all are going


Sorry, what are you saying? :O


----------



## aftab_s81

Seems like JF-17B is late, by at least 6 months.


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## fatman17

aftab_s81 said:


> Seems like JF-17B is late, by at least 6 months.


That's okay JFT program faced similar delays. Better late than never.

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## WarFariX

Its not late.. it was planned like this


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## WarFariX

Zarvan said:


> No on time it was expected to take first flight this year and it would do it on 29th April soon further tests will take place and than mass production will start


you were not expected to say this here


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## Zarvan

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> you were not expected to say this here


This news is already on facebook taking rounds go check yourself


----------



## Rocky rock



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## fatman17

WWII MOAB 4,000 IB Bombs

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## fatman17

JF17 Formation Landings

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## fatman17

The latest rumor claimed that the JF-17B 01 prototype conducted its first taxiing test on April 21, 2017.
- Last Updated 4/2/17

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## fatman17

JF17B

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## Army research



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## Chak Bamu

Army research said:


> View attachment 393304


Well, I do not mind the looks. It just needs to do its job well. I am sure it shall do so splendidly.

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## fatman17

Dual-seat JF-17B fighter jet prototype takes to the sky

According to pictures released on social medias, the dual-seat variant of the JF-17 fighter jet, the JF-17B, have made its maiden flight on April 27. Scheduled to be inducted in the Pakistan Air Force this year, The JF-17B has been primarly designed to meet export users needs, which called for the type for in-flight evaluation and advanced training.

First JF-17B dual-seat fighter prototype performing its maiden flight on April 27
(Source: Internet)

Pakistan and China jointly launched the manufacturing of first prototype of JF-17B Dual Seat fighter jet in April 2016 at an induction ceremony held in Chengdu Aerospace Corporation (CAC) Chengdu, China. 

According to analysts, this dual-seat variant would include a new three-axis fly-by-wire flight control system, an active electronically-scanned array (AESA) radar and a modified vertical stabilizer. 

The single-engine multi-role fighter jet JF-17 Thunder was jointly developed by China and Pakistan. Its development began in 1999, and the maiden flight was conducted in 2003. The initial Block 1 JF-17s were received in 2007, with production of the upgraded Block 2 JF-17s started in 2013.

Pakistan Air Force officially inducted a fifth JF-17 squadron in Feb. 2017 with Block II fighter jets, which include in-flight refuelling capability, improved avionics, enhanced load carrying capacity, data link, and EW capabilities. As of Feb. 2017, the PAF would have more than 80 JF-17 fighter jets in service.

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## fatman17



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## salman-1

Any idea which engine is installed on it. Seems same Rd-93. If it's diff I can't identify. How about Rd-33mk any chance.


----------



## fatman17

Industry

Twin-seat JF-17B/FC-1B fighter makes first flight

Richard D Fisher Jr, Washington DC - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

27 April 2017

The twin-seat Pakistan Aeronautical Complex/Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation (PAC/CAC) JF-17B Thunder/FC-1B Xiaolong combat aircraft has made its maiden flight, according to images posted on Chinese online forums on 27 April.

Before its maiden flight the JF-17B/FC-1B was seen conducting taxiing tests at the CAC's airfield in Chengdu. (Via FYJS web page)

The new variant of the JF-17/FC-1 fighter is believed to have completed its first flight from the CAC's airfield in Chengdu, where just a few days before it had been photographed conducting taxiing tests since at least 24 April.

The recently posted images confirm that the fighter has a larger swept-back vertical stabiliser as seen in a model of the aircraft shown at Airshow China in November 2016. They also confirm that the variant has a deeper dorsal spine, which adds fuel capacity to compensate for the additional weight.


----------



## fatman17

salman-1 said:


> Any idea which engine is installed on it. Seems same Rd-93. If it's diff I can't identify. How about Rd-33mk any chance.


No change reported


----------



## Scarface..Lynch

Its official now

JF-17 thunder block ll B just got images from Chinese source












18157338_1842333269425489_3680906701907155177_n



__ Scarface..Lynch
__ Apr 28, 2017
__ 1



JF-17 THunder B in China at runway

















18119454_1842332376092245_4723501212091112704_n



__ Scarface..Lynch
__ Apr 28, 2017



JF-17 B at runway in China


----------



## fatman17

*Fighter jet variant jointly built by China, Pakistan makes debut flight*
China and Pakistan jointly manufactured JF-17 Thunder multi-role combat aircraft ‘that can be used for training in peacetime and in combat missions during wartime’

PTI






China and Pakistan jointly manufacture JF-17 Thunder—a lightweight and multi-role combat aircraft. Photo: Reuters
*Beijing: *China on Thursday launched an upgraded version of a fighter jet manufactured jointly with Pakistan that can be used for training in peacetime and for combat missions during wartime.

The dual-seat fighter trainer JF-17B is an upgraded version of the military aircraft JF-17. The JF-17B was developed by Aviation Industry Corporation of China to meet the requirements of international customers and the global market, according to AVIC.

China and Pakistan jointly manufacture JF-17 Thunder—a lightweight and multi-role combat aircraft. AVIC said in a statement that the plane can be used for training in peacetime and can also be used in combat missions during wartime.

The JF-17B climbed up and stayed in the air for about 26 minutes during its maiden flight and was witnessed by guests from home and abroad, reported state-run _Xinhua _news agency. The debut flight symbolised a major milestone in the development of the JF-17 aircraft series, AVIC said.

Yang Wei, chief designer of the JF-17B, said the aircraft brings a new force to JF-17 family and will increase JF-17 series’ competitiveness in global market. AVIC said the JF-17B was developed in a market and customer-oriented manner and has achieved a balance among performance, quality, cost and market needs. People with AVIC said the F-17B aircraft has received overseas orders during its development stage.


----------



## Sulman Badshah

Project Sabre II

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## fatman17

Friday, April 28, 2017

Chinese fighter swoops into world market

By Zhao Lei




Orders for dual-seat version of existing jet placed even before maiden flight

Chinese fighter swoops into world market
A dual-seat FC-1B trainer/fighter jet makes its maiden flight on Thursday in Chengdu, Sichuan province. (Provided To China Daily)
China conducted the maiden flight of its dual-seat FC-1B trainer/fighter jet on Thursday morning, aiming to seize a bigger share of the global military aircraft market.

The event took place at an airport of Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group, the maker of the plane and a subsidiary of Aviation Industry Corp of China. It was witnessed by AVIC executives, foreign guests and journalists.

The FC-1B, also known as the JF-17B, is the latest variant of the single-seat FC-1 fourth-generation multirole combat aircraft co-developed by Chengdu Aircraft Industry and Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, the leading aviation company in Pakistan. It was designed to meet the requirements of such planes from foreign clients and the international market, according to AVIC.

The State-owned aircraft giant said the aircraft is capable of not only training pilots but also engaging in aerial combat and striking ground targets.

Yang Ying, general manager of China National Aero-Technology Import and Export Corp, the trade wing of AVIC, said the FC-1B is one of the best trainer/fighter jets in the international market. It can carry beyond-visual-range air-to-air missiles, anti-ship cruise missiles and precision land-attack ammunition.

"Because of the FC-1's excellent service record and the new plane's good capability and competitive price, the FC-1B has received orders from the international market even before the maiden flight, which means our clients have a very high level of confidence in our development and production capacity," he said at a news conference in Chengdu after the maiden flight.

Yang Wei, chief designer of the FC-1 family at AVIC, said the plane that made the flight on Thursday has been ordered by a foreign buyer, indicating that such aircraft are badly needed in the market. Normally, clients would only accept mass-produced aircraft rather than those used in test flights, he said.

He said the FC-1B's design improvements are not limited to the addition of an extra seat to the single-seat FC-1. Many changes were required, such as the adjustment of the airframe. He said AVIC will continue to upgrade and design new variants of the FC-1 family.

Currently, Pakistan is the only confirmed user of the FC-1, with more than 80 aircraft delivered to the Pakistan Air Force, according to Pakistani media.

China and Pakistan signed a contract with an unidentified buyer at the 14th Dubai Airshow in November 2015. The identity of the buyer and the number of FC-1s involved remain undisclosed.

Earlier reports said that many nations including Myanmar, Nigeria and Saudi Arabia are interested in the FC-1 and its variants.

There are more than 30 foreign users of Chinese military aircraft in the world, according to Yang Ying, the manager.

zhaolei@chinadaily.com.cn

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## TOPGUN

fatman17 said:


> Friday, April 28, 2017
> 
> Chinese fighter swoops into world market
> 
> By Zhao Lei
> View attachment 393552
> 
> Orders for dual-seat version of existing jet placed even before maiden flight
> 
> Chinese fighter swoops into world market
> A dual-seat FC-1B trainer/fighter jet makes its maiden flight on Thursday in Chengdu, Sichuan province. (Provided To China Daily)
> China conducted the maiden flight of its dual-seat FC-1B trainer/fighter jet on Thursday morning, aiming to seize a bigger share of the global military aircraft market.
> 
> The event took place at an airport of Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group, the maker of the plane and a subsidiary of Aviation Industry Corp of China. It was witnessed by AVIC executives, foreign guests and journalists.
> 
> The FC-1B, also known as the JF-17B, is the latest variant of the single-seat FC-1 fourth-generation multirole combat aircraft co-developed by Chengdu Aircraft Industry and Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, the leading aviation company in Pakistan. It was designed to meet the requirements of such planes from foreign clients and the international market, according to AVIC.
> 
> The State-owned aircraft giant said the aircraft is capable of not only training pilots but also engaging in aerial combat and striking ground targets.
> 
> Yang Ying, general manager of China National Aero-Technology Import and Export Corp, the trade wing of AVIC, said the FC-1B is one of the best trainer/fighter jets in the international market. It can carry beyond-visual-range air-to-air missiles, anti-ship cruise missiles and precision land-attack ammunition.
> 
> "Because of the FC-1's excellent service record and the new plane's good capability and competitive price, the FC-1B has received orders from the international market even before the maiden flight, which means our clients have a very high level of confidence in our development and production capacity," he said at a news conference in Chengdu after the maiden flight.
> 
> Yang Wei, chief designer of the FC-1 family at AVIC, said the plane that made the flight on Thursday has been ordered by a foreign buyer, indicating that such aircraft are badly needed in the market. Normally, clients would only accept mass-produced aircraft rather than those used in test flights, he said.
> 
> He said the FC-1B's design improvements are not limited to the addition of an extra seat to the single-seat FC-1. Many changes were required, such as the adjustment of the airframe. He said AVIC will continue to upgrade and design new variants of the FC-1 family.
> 
> Currently, Pakistan is the only confirmed user of the FC-1, with more than 80 aircraft delivered to the Pakistan Air Force, according to Pakistani media.
> 
> China and Pakistan signed a contract with an unidentified buyer at the 14th Dubai Airshow in November 2015. The identity of the buyer and the number of FC-1s involved remain undisclosed.
> 
> Earlier reports said that many nations including Myanmar, Nigeria and Saudi Arabia are interested in the FC-1 and its variants.
> 
> There are more than 30 foreign users of Chinese military aircraft in the world, according to Yang Ying, the manager.
> 
> zhaolei@chinadaily.com.cn




Any idea fatman17 how many would be made for PAF fleet ?


----------



## fatman17

TOPGUN said:


> Any idea fatman17 how many would be made for PAF fleet ?


Minimum of 1 sqn OCU

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## khanasifm

*He said AVIC will continue to upgrade and design new variants of the FC-1 family.*

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## fatman17

Air Platforms

Twin-seat JF-17B/FC-1B fighter makes first flight

Richard D Fisher Jr, Washington DC - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

28 April 2017

The twin-seat FC-1B/JF-17B fighter recently conducted its maiden flight, according to images posted on Chinese online forums on 27 April. Source: Via FYJS web page

The twin-seat Pakistan Aeronautical Complex/Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation (PAC/CAC) JF-17B Thunder/FC-1B Xiaolong combat aircraft has made its maiden flight, according to images posted on Chinese online forums on 27 April.

Before its maiden flight the JF-17B/FC-1B was seen conducting taxiing tests at the CAC's airfield in Chengdu. (Via FYJS web page)

The new variant of the JF-17/FC-1 fighter is believed to have completed its first flight from the CAC's airfield in Chengdu, where just a few days before it had been photographed conducting taxiing tests since at least 24 April.

The recently posted images confirm that the fighter has a larger swept-back vertical stabiliser as seen in a model of the aircraft shown at Airshow China in November 2016. They also confirm that the variant has a deeper dorsal spine, which adds fuel capacity to compensate for the additional weight.

Specifications provided by the Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) state the 'FC-1 Tandem Seat Trainer' has a larger wing span (9.465 m) than that of the single-seat variant (8.5 m) as well as a slightly modified nose section.

An AVIC official told Jane's at the 2017 IDEX show in Abu Dhabi that a new fly-by-wire system has helped reduce the weight of the new variant.

According to Jane's All the World's Aircraft: Development & Production , a Chinese display card emerged a few years ago quoting dimensions of the new variant that differed slightly from those of the single-seater, including height (4.6 m instead of 4.7 for the single seater) and length (14.5 m instead of 14.2 m).

A model of a tandem-seat FC-1 was first exhibited at the Paris Air Show in June 2013 by the China National Aero-Technology Import & Export Corporation (CATIC).

Chinese reports indicate the first prototype of the twin-seater was completed by late 2016.

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## fatman17



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## araz

Sulman Badshah said:


> Project Sabre II
> View attachment 393551


It just looks like our JFT!!!! See same 2 wings a nose and a tail. I have now proven beyond doubt that JFT is an offshoot of Sabre 2. Indian style logic.
A

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## SQ8

araz said:


> It just looks like our JFT!!!! See same 2 1ings a nose and a tail. I have now provwn beyond doubt that JFT is an offshoot of Sabre 2. Indian style logic.
> A


There is a project that is an offshoot of sorts- an idea by Grumman that the Chinese say is their own. In the Chinese defence, they did bring it to fruition; but the F-7G variant with the double delta is the brainstorm of a Grumman engineer whilst finalizing the concept of the Sabre-II

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## WarFariX

Oscar said:


> There is a project that is an offshoot of sorts- an idea by Grumman that the Chinese say is their own. In the Chinese defence, they did bring it to fruition; but the F-7G variant with the double delta is the brainstorm of a Grumman engineer whilst finalizing the concept of the Sabre-II


Are you leaving PDF?


----------



## SQ8

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> Are you leaving PDF?


Reducing my presence to minimum -

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## WarFariX

Oscar said:


> Reducing my presence to minimum -


----------



## Readerdefence

Oscar said:


> There is a project that is an offshoot of sorts- an idea by Grumman that the Chinese say is their own. In the Chinese defence, they did bring it to fruition; but the F-7G variant with the double delta is the brainstorm of a Grumman engineer whilst finalizing the concept of the Sabre-II


Can I request to put your input asap and as much as you can 
Without we feel your presence not around
Thx in advance


----------



## fatman17

F7P classic

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## khanasifm

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 394244
> 
> F7P classic


Towards the end of service in paf no 18 left but surprise plaaf still fly hundreds of them, production has ended though


----------



## fatman17

The twin-seat variant of the JF-17 has conducted its maiden flight . Co-developed by Pakistan and China for use by the Pakistan Air Force, the JF-17B also utilises a dorsal fin containing an additional fuel tank, giving the twin-seater a fuel load comparable to the single-seat variant. Images of the fighter also show the addition of a vertical stabiliser, a larger size, and that it rises at a shallower angle from its predecessor. Flight testing of the low-cost fighter had initially been scheduled for late 2016, but Chinese sources have not given any reason for the delay.


----------



## fatman17



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## Talon

khanasifm said:


> Towards the end of service in paf no 18 left but surprise plaaf still fly hundreds of them, production has ended though


operational with CCS as well


----------



## fatman17

Hodor said:


> operational with CCS as well


That's the F7PG version


----------



## fatman17

On April 27, the first prototype of the twin-seat JF-17B Thunder multi-role fighter performed its maiden flight at Chengdu, China.

This version was unveiled by CAC/CATIC at the 2013 Paris Air Show and thereafter the design evolved in several detail respects. Most obviously, the new aircraft features not only a second cockpit and a spine accommodating the relocated avionics, but it also has a slightly taller and more prominently swept tailfin. Overall the JF-17B is based on the current JF-17A Block II configuration that also features an in-flight refuelling probe.

Manufacture of the first (01) prototype was initiated in May 2016 and was reportedly complete by December 2016. Reports prior to its maiden flight suggest that a first taxi-test was performed on April 21, 2017. *Andreas Rupprecht*





JF17B - 20170427


----------



## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Sulman Badshah said:


> Project Sabre II
> View attachment 393551



This looks nothing like JF17 Thunder by the way



fatman17 said:


>


Rediculously smooth surface for this variant in video


----------



## Ultima Thule

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> This looks nothing like JF17 Thunder by the way


Its late 80's project with US and is not related to Thunder, JF-17 Thunder project was started in 95-96 sir here it is a saber II project sir
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Sabre_II


----------



## Arsalan

fatman17 said:


> Minimum of 1 sqn OCU


and sir will these 18 planes be in addition to the 150 planned originally in three blocks of including those 150?


----------



## Sulman Badshah

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> This looks nothing like JF17 Thunder by the way


yes it was delta wing .. based on F7 

JF-17 is later derived from Super 7 project.


----------



## Talon

CCS 


fatman17 said:


> That's the F7PG version


CCS operates F7P not PG..even the above posted picture is of F7P and its from CCS...

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## fatman17

Arsalan said:


> and sir will these 18 planes be in addition to the 150 planned originally in three blocks of including those 150?


Yes


----------



## Arsalan

fatman17 said:


> Yes


hein.... kya yes sir je? 
I gave BOTH options in my question 

These 18 will be included in those 150 originally planned
In addition to those 150 originally planed and thus taking total number ABOVE 150.
 
Ap na kis pa YES kaha ha!


----------



## fatman17

Hodor said:


> CCS
> 
> CCS operates F7P not PG..even the above posted picture is of F7P and its from CCS...


Yes my bad


----------



## fatman17

Arsalan said:


> hein.... kya yes sir je?
> I gave BOTH options in my question [emoji14]
> 
> These 18 will be included in those 150 originally planned
> In addition to those 150 originally planed and thus taking total number ABOVE 150.
> 
> Ap na kis pa YES kaha ha!


Point 1


----------



## fatman17

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/860096855635632131Must see

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## Arsalan

fatman17 said:


> Point 1


Hmmm!!

So considering the fact that by the time B variant gets into series production the Blk-II planes will be completed. These "b" variants are most likely to eat into the 50 planned for Blk-III. Not very encouraging.


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## syed_yusuf

B MODEL will be in addition to 150 single seat A model of JFT 

I predict appx 40 B model to be produced for LIFT and AJT as well as OCU


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## Arsalan

syed_yusuf said:


> B MODEL will be in addition to 150 single seat A model of JFT
> 
> I predict appx 40 B model to be produced for LIFT and AJT as well as OCU


That will be great but not something the reports thus far have suggested!


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## Talon

fatman17 said:


> Yes my bad


no problem..


----------



## Dazzler

Rare f-7p snaps showing the newly installed HUD unit, cluster bomb and other weaponry. The PAF only inducted the nifty little skybolt after incorporating more than 136 changes and impovements in avoinics, radar, engine performance, payload and airframe MTBO enhancement. Time and again, the skybolt has given the Falcon a run for it's money in simulated engagements.

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## Thorough Pro

JF-17 "project" may have been driven from Saber II or Super-7 project but not the jet design.



Sulman Badshah said:


> yes it was delta wing .. based on F7
> 
> JF-17 is later derived from Super 7 project.


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## fatman17

Air Platforms

China's Hongdu rolls out L-15B lead-in fighter-trainer

Richard D Fisher Jr, Washington DC and Gabriel Dominguez, London - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

04 May 2017

China's HAIG rolled out its L-15B LIFT in a ceremony held at the company's Nanchang headquarters on 1 May. Source: CCTV via sina.com.cn

China's Hongdu Aviation Industry Group (HAIG) has unveiled a new variant of its L-15A (also known as the JL-10) advanced jet trainer (AJT)/light attack aircraft, according to Chinese media reports.

A prototype of the new twin-seat, lead-in fighter-trainer (LIFT), known as the L-15B, was rolled out at the company's headquarters in Nanchang, the capital of the southeastern Chinese province of Jiangxi, on 1 May.

The aircraft can also be used in the air defence and air-to-ground attack roles, according to the China National Aero-Technology Import & Export Corporation (CATIC).

Chinese media reports claim that the new variant will not only be more combat capable but also better equipped than the L-15A AJT, thus enabling it to compete with other advanced trainers such as the Korean Aerospace Industries (KAI) FA-50 combat-capable LIFT.

The new variant differs from the L-15A in that it is powered by two afterburning turbofans with Full Authority Digital Engine Control (FADEC), most likely to be the Ivchenko-Progress AI-222-25F, enabling the aircraft to reach a top speed of 1,200 km/h at sea level, according to Jane's All the World's Aircraft: Development & Production.

The L-15B also differs from the AJT variant in that it has an extended nose section housing a passive electronically scanned array (PESA) radar with a reported 75 km range, and an electronic systems structure, which is most likely to be a radar warning receiver (RWR), located atop the vertical stabiliser.

The aircraft's nose also features fin antennas for what is likely to be an identification friend or foe (IFF) system.

According to CATIC, the L-15B also has nine weapon hardpoints and attachments for a 3.5-tonne payload.

A 2 May report published on the Chinese website Guancha.cn states that the aircraft's wingtip mounts are strong enough to carry heavy short-range air-to-air missiles (AAMs) such as the infrared/helmet-sighted Luoyang Electro-Optical Research Institute's PL-9C AAM.


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## fatman17

Y20E

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## Readerdefence

Readerdefence said:


>


L15 with IFF antennas

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## fatman17

Air Platforms

Shenyang continues prototype development of FC-31 fighter

Reuben F Johnson, Singapore - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

05 May 2017

Recent information from Chinese, Russian, and Ukrainian sources reveals an uptick in activity by the Shenyang Aircraft Corporation on its FC-31 lightweight fighter programme.

The 'second prototype' of what has been billed as a stealthy design is reported to have flown in December 2016 and was observed undergoing a series of extensive flight tests in April. The rise in tempo of these test flights is generating speculation that the programme finally has some official support from the People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF).

A comparison of the second FC-31 prototype and the original flying example, generally referred to as the J-31, showing some of the differences in design between the two aircraft. (Via CJDBY website)

The FC-31 was originally unveiled in November 2012 at Air Show China in Zhuhai, with the official title of 'Advanced Fighter Concept', although Chinese security restrictions at the time would not even permit anyone to credit Shenyang as the entity that had developed the aircraft. The design has also been known by a list of various designations: FC-31, J-31, Project 310, Falcon Hawk, and F-60.

What is now being called the first prototype flew at the 2014 Zhuhai show, finally openly labelled as a Shenyang design, but without any indication that the PLAAF - or any other air force - was considered a potential customer. It made no appearance at Air Show China 2016, however.

Changes seen in the second prototype mirror some of the "work in progress" type of modifications seen in the different prototypes of China's other next-generation fighter: the Chengdu J-20. Among the notable differences between the first and second prototypes, the most significant are as follows:

- The planform's outer mould lines have changed in order to reduce the aircraft's radar cross-section (RCS). Photos of the aircraft in flight appear to show some of the "edge treatment" stealthy coating techniques seen previously on the J-20 that flew at the 2016 Zhuhai air show.

- The second FC-31 prototype appears externally to have been fitted with an infrared search and track (IRST) system, while Chinese websites have stated the aircraft has an "advanced" radar.


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## messiach

Thats pinnacle of AeSp engineering. Nothing more complicated than an airlifter.



fatman17 said:


> View attachment 394733
> 
> Y20E


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## Avicenna

messiach said:


> Thats pinnacle of AeSp engineering. Nothing more complicated than an airlifter.



Why is that? What makes designing an airlifter the most complicated?


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## messiach

Technically fatigue-life specifications are hard to meet, wings suffer from premature fatigue, heavy lifting reduces wing expected >30,000 hr service life. Flight surfaces suffer structural stresses which require enhancements. Pressure seals often fail increasing demand for engine air bleed reqs. Fuel efficient engines are major obstacles on heavy lifters. Chinese have recently developed the WS19/20 replacing the fuel guzzler D30 but still lacks performance characteristics required for heavy lifters.


Avicenna said:


> Why is that? What makes designing an airlifter the most complicated?

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## fatman17

*China, Pakistan Test Fly New Variant of Fighter Jet*
The dual-seat JF-17B prototype has successfully completed its first test flight in April.






By Franz-Stefan Gady for The Diplomat
May 05, 2017


A prototype of the two-seat trainer variant of the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex/Chengdu Aerospace Corporation (PAC/CAC) JF-17 Thunder combat aircraft, dubbed JF-17B, has successfully conducted a maiden flight on April 27, according to media reports. The maiden is believed to have taken place in China’s Chengdu province from a CAC airfield.

As I reported elsewhere, production of the JF-17B kicked off in April 2016. The aircraft was expected to embark upon its maiden flight by the end of that year and the Pakistan Air Force intended to induct its first JF-17B by April 2017. As of now, there are currently three JF-17B under construction, two of which will be transferred to the Pakistan Air Force in the coming months.

The aircraft is intended to enter serial production in 2018.

In comparison to the single-seat JF-17, the JF-17B variant features a dorsal fin that contains an additional fuel tank. The aircraft prototype also has a slightly larger wingspan and a marginally modified nose section to accommodate an active electronically-scanned array (AESA) radar. It also sports a larger swept-back vertical stabilizer housing a new three-axis fly-by-wire system.

Like the single-seat variant, the JF-17B features seven hard points and presumably can carry external payloads of up to 3,650 kilograms. It can be armed with air-to-air missiles, anti-ship missiles, and various guided and unguided bombs.

There is some speculation that the JF-17B will be basis for the JF-17 Block III single-seat variant of the fighter jet. (JF-17 production is split into three production blocks.) PAC/CAC have so far produced 50 Block I fighter jets and over 20 out of 50 Block II JF-17s. 14 additional Block II aircraft are expected to be produced by the end of the year.

All three aircraft variants, in addition to the JF-17B, are powered by a Russian-designed-but-Chinese-built Klimov RD-93 (a RD-33 derivative) turbofan, although there has been speculation that the PAF will procure more fuel-efficient and powerful RD-33MK turbofan jet engine, the most advanced version of the engine with a higher thrust output.

As I reported elsewhere:

_The JF-17 was originally developed to to replace the PAF’s aging fleet of Dassault Mirage III/5 fighter jets by 2o20. “Pakistan is looking to replace 190 aircraft—primarily Chengdu F-7 and Dassault Mirage III/5 fighter jets—by 2020 presumably with a mixture of F-16 and JF-17 aircraft. Pakistan, however, is also allegedly in talks with Russia over the purchase of Su-35 multi-role fighters,” I reported in April (See: “China and Pakistan Air Forces Launch Joint Training Exercise”)._

Pakistan has been trying to export the aircraft for some time. It is pitched as a low cost fighter for air forces in the developing world. A number of countries have purportedly expressed interest in the JF-17 fighter jet including Argentina, Bangladesh, Bulgaria, Nigeria, the Philippines, Venezuela, and Zimbabwe. Pakistan announced in 2015 that has a first international customer for the aircraft, but so far has refused to confirm the Asian country in question.


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## Silahtar

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/861505813168496640


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## Dazzler



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## fatman17

Air Platforms

Images emerge of possible new Chinese anti-ship weapon

Richard D Fisher Jr, Washington DC and Neil Gibson, London - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

08 May 2017

China may be developing a new anti-ship weapon that combines technologies derived from developments in cruise missiles and ground-effect vehicles (GEVs).

An image of what appears to be a brochure marketing the 'ground-effect unmanned aerial vehicle' appeared on Chinese online forums in early May. (sina.com.cn)

An image of a brochure marketing the weapon, the latter of which is shown painted in blue Chinese navy camouflage, appeared on Chinese online forums in early May.

China may be developing a new anti-ship weapon that combines technologies derived from developments in cruise missiles and wing-in-ground vehicles. (sina.com.cn)

The brochure indicates that the weapon, referred to in the document as the 'ground-effect unmanned aerial vehicle [UAV]', carries a 'CH' designation, which is usually associated with the China Aerospace Science and Technology Corporation's Cai Hong (Rainbow) family of UAVs.

The brochure states that the new system has a maximum take-off weight of 3,000 kg, a maximum payload capacity of 1,000 kg, a maximum endurance of 1.5 h, a cruising altitude of 1-6 m and a service ceiling in excess of 3 km.


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## Arsalan

Dazzler said:


> View attachment 395402


Il-78 right? 
With those IFR probe fitted mirages.


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## SQ8

fatman17 said:


> Air Platforms
> 
> Images emerge of possible new Chinese anti-ship weapon
> 
> Richard D Fisher Jr, Washington DC and Neil Gibson, London - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
> 
> 08 May 2017
> 
> China may be developing a new anti-ship weapon that combines technologies derived from developments in cruise missiles and ground-effect vehicles (GEVs).
> 
> An image of what appears to be a brochure marketing the 'ground-effect unmanned aerial vehicle' appeared on Chinese online forums in early May. (sina.com.cn)
> 
> An image of a brochure marketing the weapon, the latter of which is shown painted in blue Chinese navy camouflage, appeared on Chinese online forums in early May.
> 
> China may be developing a new anti-ship weapon that combines technologies derived from developments in cruise missiles and wing-in-ground vehicles. (sina.com.cn)
> 
> The brochure indicates that the weapon, referred to in the document as the 'ground-effect unmanned aerial vehicle [UAV]', carries a 'CH' designation, which is usually associated with the China Aerospace Science and Technology Corporation's Cai Hong (Rainbow) family of UAVs.
> 
> The brochure states that the new system has a maximum take-off weight of 3,000 kg, a maximum payload capacity of 1,000 kg, a maximum endurance of 1.5 h, a cruising altitude of 1-6 m and a service ceiling in excess of 3 km.
> 
> 
> View attachment 395608


Imagine this as a mothership for C-802s

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## khanasifm

Arsalan said:


> Il-78 right?
> With those IFR probe fitted mirages.



Not sure how many mirages were upgraded with probe initially target was 30 or so per one the journals assuming mostly ROSE mirages but so far some in no 27 and few in No 7 

Sqn perhaps to just keep the tempo


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## fatman17

khanasifm said:


> Not sure how many mirages were upgraded with probe initially target was 30 or so per one the journals assuming mostly ROSE mirages but so far some in no 27 and few in No 7
> 
> Sqn perhaps to just keep the tempo


Number 40 comes to mind


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## fatman17

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/862287536646967298


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## Cool_Soldier

Cograts for sale of 52 Mushak
Hope to see T 129 deal soon


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## araz

Cool_Soldier said:


> Cograts for sale of 52 Mushak
> Hope to see T 129 deal soon


Milgem is the most limely next deal.
A

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## skybolt

Air Marshal Arshad Malik, Chairman PAC Kamra with TurAF chief at IDEF17

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## ZedZeeshan

skybolt said:


> Air Marshal Arshad Malik, Chairman PAC Kamra with TurAF chief at IDEF17


He might cry anytime..!!


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## skybolt



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## Readerdefence

Cool_Soldier said:


> Cograts for sale of 52 Mushak
> Hope to see T 129 deal soon


I was thinking of writing this but then I thought not relevant thread


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## fatman17

Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) and BAE Systems have announced that they will ink the TFX design and development agreement that was signed by both companies in January at this year’s International Defence Industry Fair (IDEF) 2017. Valued at almost $130 million, the deal will see BAE assisting TAI with the design and development of the TFX next-generation multi-role fighter. It has also been reported that Pakistan may be interested in participating in the project, with Turkish industry and Pakistan’s Ministry of Defence Production speaking on what future collaboration would look like. However, the Pakistan Air Force has yet to comment on whether it would be interested in participating in producing and procuring such an aircraft.


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## fatman17

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/862385807973208064


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## Cool_Soldier

araz said:


> Milgem is the most limely next deal.
> A


we welcome any great ball rolling in to our court.


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## JPMM

There is an article about PAF Alouette III in a Portuguese blog

http://www.passarodeferro.com/2015/01/o-alouette-iii-no-paquistao-m1777.html

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## WarFariX



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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> View attachment 396262


Not far from what the MoDP told Anadolu Agency:

"Turkey will start to produce its own national war plane in 10 years. First, the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) will provide support for the integration of our factory, and the second phase will be a business alliance with the British Air Force, and at that point we will be the partner of this program in Pakistan."

http://aa.com.tr/tr/dunya/savunma-sanayisinde-dev-projeler-hayata-gecirecegiz/814384​

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## fatman17

If ordered nowby a foreign customer, FC-31 could enter the production as early as 2019 and achieve IOC in 2022.

- Last Updated 5/11/17

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## fatman17

Industry

Turkey buys 52 Super Mushshak training aircraft from Pakistan

Lale Sariibrahimoglu, Istanbul - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

11 May 2017

Turkey has signed a contract with the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) Kamra for the procurement of 52 MFI-17 Super Mushshak primary trainers, according to a statement issued by the Turkish Defence Industries Undersecretariat (SSM).

Turkey has signed a contract with Pakistan for the procurement of 52 Super Mushshak training aircraft. (PAC)

The contract was signed on 10 May on the sidelines of the 2017 IDEF defence exhibition in Istanbul in a ceremony presided over by Turkish defence minister Fikri Isik and Pakistan's minister for defence production, Tanvir Hussain.

The value of the contract was not disclosed.

The aircraft are set to replace the Turkish Air Force's ageing T-41D Mescalero and SF-260D trainers.

The Super Mushshak is a PAC licence-built version of the Saab MFI-17 Supporter aircraft. Around 46 of these trainers are currently in service with the Pakistan Air Force (PAF), with the first ones being commissioned in the year 2000, according to Jane's World Air Forces.

In addition to the PAF, the aircraft has been acquired by the air forces of Iran, Iraq, Oman, Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Nigeria.

In 2015 officials of Pakistan's Ministry of Defence announced that Turkey had donated 34 of its Cessna T-37 trainers to the PAF in a move that strengthened defence relations between the two countries.

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## WarFariX

fatman17 said:


> If ordered nowby a foreign customer, FC-31 could enter the production as early as 2019 and achieve IOC in 2022.
> 
> - Last Updated 5/11/17
> View attachment 396299


Not good until WS-13E enters full production and is fully ready to operate


----------



## fatman17

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> Not good until WS-13E enters full production and is fully ready to operate


One image taken in December 2013 suggested that FC-31 was testing a new silver color "stealth" nozzle similar to those onboard J-20. The 02 prototype was expected to feature "major" improvements in order to make it moreattractive to domestic/foreign customers. Those improvements include a one-piece canopy, domestic WS-13E turbofan engines, a retractable IFR probe on the starboard side, a longer and fatter fuselage, a bigger internal weapon bay, reshaped F-35 stylevertical tailfins and cropped wing tips and tailfin tips similar to those of F-22. It wasrumored that the 01 prototype powered by two upgraded WS-13E turbofan engines flew for the first time on July 1, 2016. An AVIC promotional video released at the 2016 Zhuhai Airshow indicated the 02 prototype has been built and was preparing for themaiden flight. The high-speed taxiing test of the 02 prototype started on December 18, 2016. Its first flight took place on December 23, 2016, powered by two smokeless WS-13Eengines. Currently the test flight of the 02 prototype continues at SAC. If ordered nowby a foreign customer, FC-31 could enter the production as early as 2019 and achieve IOC in 2022.

- Last Updated 5/11/17


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## WarFariX

fatman17 said:


> One image taken in December 2013 suggested that FC-31 was testing a new silver color "stealth" nozzle similar to those onboard J-20. The 02 prototype was expected to feature "major" improvements in order to make it moreattractive to domestic/foreign customers. Those improvements include a one-piece canopy, domestic WS-13E turbofan engines, a retractable IFR probe on the starboard side, a longer and fatter fuselage, a bigger internal weapon bay, reshaped F-35 stylevertical tailfins and cropped wing tips and tailfin tips similar to those of F-22. It wasrumored that the 01 prototype powered by two upgraded WS-13E turbofan engines flew for the first time on July 1, 2016. An AVIC promotional video released at the 2016 Zhuhai Airshow indicated the 02 prototype has been built and was preparing for themaiden flight. The high-speed taxiing test of the 02 prototype started on December 18, 2016. Its first flight took place on December 23, 2016, powered by two smokeless WS-13Eengines. Currently the test flight of the 02 prototype continues at SAC. If ordered nowby a foreign customer, FC-31 could enter the production as early as 2019 and achieve IOC in 2022.
> 
> - Last Updated 5/11/17


Yes yes i know all this , i am keeping up with every thing on FC-31 from 1 year. Now the thing is , WS-13A/E unlike the successful WS-15 engine is having some shortfalls. It will take more than 4 years yet . Even if FC-31 is exported by 2019 , the jet will be useless in terms of carrying payload. I read this on CDJBY.NET


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## imadul

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> Yes yes i know all this , i am keeping up with every thing on FC-31 from 1 year. Now the thing is , WS-13A/E unlike the successful WS-15 engine is having some shortfalls. It will take more than 4 years yet . Even if FC-31 is exported by 2019 , the jet will be useless in terms of carrying payload. I read this on CDJBY.NET


Then just keep flying with rd33 derivative. Russian izdeliye 30 for pakfa also some years away, and thats if russian willing to export. 
Is there any chinese developing their own? Not a reverse engineered one!


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## WarFariX

imadul said:


> Then just keep flying with rd33 derivative. Russian izdeliye 30 for pakfa also some years away, and thats if russian willing to export.
> Is there any chinese developing their own? Not a reverse engineered one!


WS-15 has chinese indigenous core which was when seen by russian engine manufacturing compane men praised it too much and called it "Innovative" tech back in 2006. WS-15 is a promising engine. RD-33 has nothing to do with Ws-13E. Core us different one again here. and for your information, ws13E is already integrated on J31V2

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## Windjammer

*Relics of a bygone era.*

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## razgriz19

Windjammer said:


> *Relics of a bygone era.*
> 
> 
> View attachment 397099


I had no idea PAF operated these


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

razgriz19 said:


> I had no idea PAF operated these


They didn't, but the PAF was very close in receiving them. In the 1970s, the PAF requested A-7 Corsairs from the U.S., and the U.S. was willing to release them provided Pakistan doesn't move ahead with its nuclear weapons program. At least one was painted in PAF colours and readied for delivery. Pakistan said "no" to dropping the nukes and the rest is history ... e.g the U.S. said "no A-7s", the Soviets came to Afghanistan, the U.S. offered A-7s again, then F-5Es, then F-20s and F-16-79s, and then the F-18L and F-16.

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## Raider 21

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> They didn't, but the PAF was very close in receiving them. In the 1970s, the PAF requested A-7 Corsairs from the U.S., and the U.S. was willing to release them provided Pakistan doesn't move ahead with its nuclear weapons program. At least one was painted in PAF colours and readied for delivery. Pakistan said "no" to dropping the nukes and the rest is history ... e.g the U.S. said "no A-7s", the Soviets came to Afghanistan, the U.S. offered A-7s again, then F-5Es, then F-20s and F-16-79s, and then the F-18L and F-16.



F-5Es and A-10s. F-20 was evaluated much later after the F-16A/Bs entered service in PAF. The evaluation was done by Abbas "Mickey" Mirza. F-20 was offered with full license production. Eventually the program was cancelled, after both Northrop test pilots were killed during separate aerial demonstrations.

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## Windjammer

Knuckles said:


> F-5Es and A-10s. F-20 was evaluated much later after the F-16A/Bs entered service in PAF. The evaluation was done by Abbas "Mickey" Mirza. F-20 was offered with full license production. Eventually the program was cancelled, after both Northrop test pilots were killed during separate aerial demonstrations.


In late 70s Carter administration offered 120 A-7s if Pakistan was willing to freeze it's nuclear programme, the deal fell trough, the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan turned the tables, initially an F-20 painted in PAF colours was dispatched to Pakistan for evaluation, later F-16/79 was offered which was also refused for being underpower.
It's also said that when the first F-16s landed in Saudia during the ferry flight, PAF refused to accept them until they were equipped with their standard APG-66s.

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## Raider 21

Windjammer said:


> In late 70s Carter administration offered 120 A-7s if Pakistan was willing to freeze it's nuclear programme, the deal fell trough, the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan turned the tables, initially an F-20 painted in PAF colours was dispatched to Pakistan for evaluation, later F-16/79 was offered which was also refused for being underpower.
> It's also said that when the first F-16s landed in Saudia during the ferry flight, PAF refused to accept them until they were equipped with their standard APG-66s.



F-16/79 was an export version that was rejected by almost everyone. Yes an F-20 Tigershark had come to Chaklala for an evaluation. As for the AN/APG-66, I am not sure about the refusal but I only know of that the USAF pilots handed the jets over at Saudi Arabia to PAF pilots, who were then responsible for the jets from then onward. If anything was to happen on the trip from US to Saudi Arabia, the USAF would take responsibility.


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## khanasifm

F5g or f20 along with a10 were evaluated after f16 as low cost option but eventually paf opted for f7p per paf book


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

khanasifm said:


> F5g or f20 along with a10 were evaluated after f16 as low cost option but eventually paf opted for f7p per paf book


There was also the Sabre II, which would have basically been a lot like the F-20, e.g. similar radar, avionics, weapons and potentially even engine (GE F404). Feasibility issues and the U.S. embargo on China basically scuttled that program.


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## fatman17

Windjammer said:


> *Relics of a bygone era.*
> 
> 
> View attachment 397099


US was offering a 100 of these to forego our nuke program


----------



## Windjammer

Knuckles said:


> F-16/79 was an export version that was rejected by almost everyone. Yes an F-20 Tigershark had come to Chaklala for an evaluation. As for the AN/APG-66, I am not sure about the refusal but I only know of that the USAF pilots handed the jets over at Saudi Arabia to PAF pilots, who were then responsible for the jets from then onward. If anything was to happen on the trip from US to Saudi Arabia, the USAF would take responsibility.


The US pilots ferried the jets from Fortworth to Saudi Arabia, however some PAF pilots also flew with them as GIBS thus it was first time the PAF pilots experienced the endurance of a transatlantic flight. Once the jets arrived in Saudia, PAF engineers discovered some issues with the radars thus the aircraft were stranded there for a few days until the matter was resolved.


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## redgriffin

Windjammer said:


> *Relics of a bygone era.*
> 
> 
> View attachment 397099


Always wanted to see the Corsair in Pakistani colours. Would've been a much better attack aircraft than the A-5.


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## Windjammer

redgriffin said:


> Always wanted to see the Corsair in Pakistani colours. Would've been a much better attack aircraft than the A-5.


Yes they were good back then but unlike A-5 they were subsonic and single engine but a heavy payload.


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## redgriffin

Btw the Corsair saga is a perfect example of 100 piyaz bhi khana or 100 jootay bhi.
Pakistan wanted a good attack aircraft as a B-57 replacement. The A-7 fitted the bill. Deal was for circa 120 aircraft. Then at the same time were negotiating rather successfully with the French for a nuclear reprocessing plant (hint plutonium route to nuke bombs).
When the Carter administration came in, it held hostage the Corsairs against scrapping of the reprocessing plant deal.
We didn't budge, hence Corsairs deal scrapped. Eventually the US pressure proved too much for the French & they scrapped the reprocessing plant deal as well.
Hence "pani bhi na piya, glass tora 12 anay bill".

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## Raider 21

Windjammer said:


> The US pilots ferried the jets from Fortworth to Saudi Arabia, however some PAF pilots also flew with them as GIBS thus it was first time the PAF pilots experienced the endurance of a transatlantic flight. Once the jets arrived in Saudia, PAF engineers discovered some issues with the radars thus the aircraft were stranded there for a few days until the matter was resolved.


From MacDill AFB at Florida to be exact. The jets were posted there for a few hours of testing and then followed by the first batch training on the new Pakistani bound jets.


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## redgriffin

Windjammer said:


> Yes they were good back then but unlike A-5 they were subsonic and single engine but a heavy payload.


And had better attack avionics.


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## Thorough Pro

The F-16 that we got were originally made/being made for Iran, but were sanctioned due to 79 revolution. Even the maintenance equipment (I believe) came from Iran



Knuckles said:


> F-16/79 was an export version that was rejected by almost everyone. Yes an F-20 Tigershark had come to Chaklala for an evaluation. As for the AN/APG-66, I am not sure about the refusal but I only know of that the USAF pilots handed the jets over at Saudi Arabia to PAF pilots, who were then responsible for the jets from then onward. If anything was to happen on the trip from US to Saudi Arabia, the USAF would take responsibility.


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## Raider 21

Thorough Pro said:


> The F-16 that we got were originally made/being made for Iran, but were sanctioned due to 79 revolution. Even the maintenance equipment (I believe) came from Iran


I believe those *Iranian *F-16s were sold to *Israel*. Pakistan's jets were brand new. One of the jets was made by Fokker as well....I think it was a B-model, I may be mistaken though. But yeah I heard some of the maintenance equipment originally intended for Iran was then sold to Pakistan.


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## Dazzler

Thorough Pro said:


> The F-16 that we got were originally made/being made for Iran, but were sanctioned due to 79 revolution. Even the maintenance equipment (I believe) came from Iran



Israelis ended up with the Iranian Falcons, All PAF's Falcons were developed on blk 15 standard with few modifications to avionics and radar.

"
*Modifications*
The Pakistan Air Force currently has the Block 15 F-16A/B model in operation, which has an upgraded APG-66 radar that brings it close to the MLU (Mid-life Update) radar technology. The main advantage is the ability to use the AIM-7 Sparrow and AIM-120 AMRAAM missiles if they were ever to be released to the PAF. Furthermore, the radar is capable of sorting out tight formations of aircraft and has a 15%-20% range increase over previous models. All the earlier F-16s were brought up to OCU standards and have received the Falcon UP structural modification package.

In 2010 it was announced that Pakistan would order MLU kits to upgrade all its older A/B models to bring them up to the same standard with this upgrade package and to have some similarities with their new block 52 airframes."

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_users_article14.html

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## Army research

Does PAF have any bvrm for F 16's?


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## TaimiKhan

Army research said:


> Does PAF have any bvrm for F 16's?


AIM-120


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## Army research

TaimiKhan said:


> AIM-120


Are there any pictures ? Which version? Aim9X?


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## TaimiKhan

Army research said:


> Are there any pictures ? Which version? Aim9X?


Buddy u asked for bvr misssile. PAF got 500 Aim-120c5 for its f16s. And no paf has not gotten aim-9x, rather is mostly uses the L variant which are technically WVR missiles. 

Plz first google difference between a BVR & WVR missiles.


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## Army research

TaimiKhan said:


> Buddy u asked for bvr misssile. PAF got 500 Aim-120c5 for its f16s. And no paf has not gotten aim-9x, rather is mostly uses the L variant which are technically WVR missiles.
> 
> Plz first google difference between a BVR & WVR missiles.


I asked about the 120 and 9X separately , ik the difference bw a bvr and a wvr , could you please kindly post a pic of 120 in PAF , would be obliged [emoji2]

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Defence.pk mobile app


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## TaimiKhan

Army research said:


> I asked about the 120 and 9X separately , ik the difference bw a bvr and a wvr , could you please kindly post a pic of 120 in PAF , would be obliged [emoji2]
> 
> Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Defence.pk mobile app


https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/pakistan-f-16-discussions-2.15226/page-402

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## TaimiKhan

Army research said:


> I asked about the 120 and 9X separately , ik the difference bw a bvr and a wvr , could you please kindly post a pic of 120 in PAF , would be obliged [emoji2]
> 
> Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Defence.pk mobile app


http://picssr.com/photos/fightingfalcon16?nsid=34628931@N03


TaimiKhan said:


> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/pakistan-f-16-discussions-2.15226/page-402

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## TaimiKhan

__ https://www.pinterest.com/pin//

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## The Eagle

*CJCSC calls on air chief, apprised of PAF modernisation programmes*
GNGEO NEWS
May 18, 2017
PAKISTAN 







*ISLAMABAD: Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee (CJCSC) General Zubair Mahmood Hayat on Wednesday called on Chief of the Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman at the Air Headquarters, Islamabad.*

On his arrival, General Zubair Mahmood Hayat was received by Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman. He was given a detailed briefing on the organisation, role and functioning of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF).

Later on, the CJCSC called on the air chief in his office, wherein the two top military officials discussed matters of professional interest.

Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman apprised the CJCSC about various ongoing modernisation/upgradation programmes of the PAF.

The CJCSC expressed his confidence in operational preparedness of the PAF.

The air chief, on the occasion, presented him a new book on the PAF titled “PAF Attaining New Heights.”


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## syed_yusuf

what is that missile under the table?


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## fatman17

syed_yusuf said:


> what is that missile under the table?


AKG400


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## fatman17

Just a nice pic

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## fatman17




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## fatman17




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## syed_yusuf

fatman17 said:


> AKG400



i do not think so


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## raahaat7

redgriffin said:


> Btw the Corsair saga is a perfect example of 100 piyaz bhi khana or 100 jootay bhi.
> Pakistan wanted a good attack aircraft as a B-57 replacement. The A-7 fitted the bill. Deal was for circa 120 aircraft. Then at the same time were negotiating rather successfully with the French for a nuclear reprocessing plant (hint plutonium route to nuke bombs).
> When the Carter administration came in, it held hostage the Corsairs against scrapping of the reprocessing plant deal.
> We didn't budge, hence Corsairs deal scrapped. Eventually the US pressure proved too much for the French & they scrapped the reprocessing plant deal as well.
> Hence "pani bhi na piya, glass tora 12 anay bill".


But who is complaining. Today we have got both, with substantial indigenous component. Thanx uncle sam!


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## TaimiKhan

syed_yusuf said:


> i do not think so


C-802A kind of missile.


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## HRK

syed_yusuf said:


> what is that missile under the table?



C-802

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## Advocate Pakistan

HRK said:


> C-802



And they say, "Thunder can carry this"


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## HRK

Advocate Pakistan said:


> And they say, "Thunder can carry this"


& you have issue with this ... ???


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## Safriz

Advocate Pakistan said:


> And they say, "Thunder can carry this"

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## Advocate Pakistan

HRK said:


> & you have issue with this ... ???



No, I thought that missile is too big and heavy for Thunder.
Apparently, Thunder can carry more than one.


شاھین میزایل said:


>



Happy to see.


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## fatman17

PAF to buy 3 additional AEW&C aircraft.





The Pakistan Air Force chief, Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman, told AFM in late April that the air arm is set to receive three new Saab 2000 Erieye airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) aircraft. The first will be delivered in December and the remaining pair will arrive next year.

They will boost the PAF’s AEW&C fleet, which is currently made up of three Erieyes serving 3 Squadron and four ZDK-03s with 4 Squadron.

Saab issued a press release on May 15 announcing that it had signed an AEW&C contract worth SEK 1.35bn (£120m), with deliveries being made from 2017 until 2020. It will not disclose the customer, as is its usual policy, but it is likely this is the same deal.

Two of the PAF’s existing Erieyes were seriously damaged in a terrorist attack on PAF Base Minhas in August 2012, but have now been returned to service. Both were rebuilt by PAF personnel at PAC Kamra with support from Saab – the last aircraft returned to service in 2016.

The PAF ordered four Erieyes in 2005, and these were delivered during 2009-11. Under Project Vision, initiated in 2000, the PAF has built up its own indigenous C4I system couple with surveillance systems and surface-to-air weapons. Information datalinked from both the ZDK-03 and Erieye is merged at the PAF’s Air Defence HQ at Chaklala, to provide the PAF with a single recognised air picture. Alan Warnes

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## Readerdefence

fatman17 said:


> PAF to buy 3 additional AEW&C aircraft.
> View attachment 398010
> 
> 
> The Pakistan Air Force chief, Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman, told AFM in late April that the air arm is set to receive three new Saab 2000 Erieye airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) aircraft. The first will be delivered in December and the remaining pair will arrive next year.
> 
> They will boost the PAF’s AEW&C fleet, which is currently made up of three Erieyes serving 3 Squadron and four ZDK-03s with 4 Squadron.
> 
> Saab issued a press release on May 15 announcing that it had signed an AEW&C contract worth SEK 1.35bn (£120m), with deliveries being made from 2017 until 2020. It will not disclose the customer, as is its usual policy, but it is likely this is the same deal.
> 
> Two of the PAF’s existing Erieyes were seriously damaged in a terrorist attack on PAF Base Minhas in August 2012, but have now been returned to service. Both were rebuilt by PAF personnel at PAC Kamra with support from Saab – the last aircraft returned to service in 2016.
> 
> The PAF ordered four Erieyes in 2005, and these were delivered during 2009-11. Under Project Vision, initiated in 2000, the PAF has built up its own indigenous C4I system couple with surveillance systems and surface-to-air weapons. Information datalinked from both the ZDK-03 and Erieye is merged at the PAF’s Air Defence HQ at Chaklala, to provide the PAF with a single recognised air picture. Alan Warnes


Hi additional will be complete erieye or just the planes ?
Thx


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## khanasifm

Erieye is Erinyes or Saab 2k based awacs, Saab 2000 is plane


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## fatman17

Readerdefence said:


> Hi additional will be complete erieye or just the planes ?
> Thx


It says very clearly in the article.


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## salman-1

We had four erieyes 3 were with radars and one just Saab 2000?.now all are operational


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## ziaulislam

fatman17 said:


> It says very clearly in the article.


this is a big wow, didnt made big headlines
the price is low 120M, i wonder why


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## araz

salman-1 said:


> We had four erieyes 3 were with radars and one just Saab 2000?.now all are operational


Wrong. We had 4 with Radars and one for training.One got smoked and 2 were damaged during the Kamra Attack. The damaged ones were recovered a d PAF bought a supplementary Radar and equipment along with another Saab plane 029. Now what happens subsequently is anyones guess but the price for these is really good.
A


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## ziaulislam

araz said:


> Wrong. We had 4 with Radars and one for training.One got smoked and 2 were damaged during the Kamra Attack. The damaged ones were recovered a d PAF bought a supplementary Radar and equipment along with another Saab plane 029. Now what happens subsequently is anyones guess but the price for these is really good.
> A


_The Pakistan Air Force chief, Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman, told AFM in late April that the air arm is set to receive three new Saab 2000 Erieye airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) aircraft. The first will be delivered in December and the remaining pair will arrive next year._

so does this mean we will end up with 7 or 6 SAAB systems
source seems to be reliable


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## khanasifm

ziaulislam said:


> this is a big wow, didnt made big headlines
> the price is low 120M, i wonder why




its 120 M pounds so X App 2.2


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## syed_yusuf

This seems PAF will end up with 6 erieye and 4 ke3 aewcs in next few years. Not bad at all. It just need 3 if them to cover entire Pakistan


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## ziaulislam

khanasifm said:


> its 120 M pounds so X App 2.2


that still not much its just 160 million dollars, the first deal was way expensive _In October 2005 Saab signed a contract to supply an airborne Surveillance System for Pakistan to the value of 8.3 billion SEK vs just 1.3B SEK_
is it possible that we just acquiring one system for replacement not 3


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

ziaulislam said:


> that still not much its just 160 million dollars, the first deal was way expensive _In October 2005 Saab signed a contract to supply an airborne Surveillance System for Pakistan to the value of 8.3 billion SEK vs just 1.3B SEK_
> is it possible that we just acquiring one system for replacement not 3


In 2007 the PAF reduced the order from 6 to 4, this caused the contract to drop in price by $186 million (SEK 1.3 bn). It seems that the cost of the Erieye (in 2007) was $93 m not including life-cycle support costs. This $93 m also includes the cost of the Saab 2000, zeroing its airframe and integration. The PAF has already absorbed the life-cycle costs, so it can buy the Erieye for its up front price.

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## ziaulislam

do we need whether these will be identical to previous SAAB or some updated features?

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

ziaulislam said:


> do we need whether these will be identical to previous SAAB or some updated features?


Probably the same Erieye AESA radar, possibly additional subsystems (e.g. EO/IR pod, SAR, etc).

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## fatman17

Turkey unveils two new AAMs 

Two new Turkish air-to-air missiles (AAMs) were unveiled on the first day of the International Defence Exhibition Fair (IDEF). The exhibition, which is taking place in Istanbul from May 9-12, is subject to unprecedented security, due to the situation in the country.

Almost immediately after the opening ceremony, Turkey’s Prime Minister Binali Yıldırım visited the Tübitak SAGE (Defence Industry Research and Development Institute) to unveil the Peregrine within-visual-range (WVR) and Merlin beyond-visual-range (BVR) AAMs. They are the first weapons in these classes to be developed by Turkish industry, as it works to design and build a new Turkish fighter (TF-X) well into the next decade.

Both missiles have been under development since 2012 as part of Project Goktug, according to the Tübitak Director, Erdal Cakmak. He indicated that both missiles should be integrated and test-fired within the next two years.

According to one source AFM spoke to, the Peregrine (Gokdogan) has a range of 30km (20 miles) while the larger Merlin (Bozdogan) has a range of around 65km (40 miles). Both are currently at their design stage, but Mr Cakmak said ‘it was an appropriate time to show them off’. Alan Warnes

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## fatman17

China aiming to become global fighter jet supplier with cheap new radar
By Wang Xueying (CNTV) 16:02, May 22, 2017





(Photo/CGTN)
China has developed a cheap, lightweight radar for fighter jets as it bids to supply more such technology to developing nations.
Announcing the breakthrough on Monday, state-owned aviation and defense company AVIC explained that it features a new cooling system and said it will be installed in nearly 1,000 existing Chinese jets, increasing their combat effectiveness.
The technology should prove attractive to Pakistan, with whom China already has an arrangement to supply fighter jets, and other developing countries, said sources with the AVIC’s Radar Research Institute.

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## 帅的一匹

Convert all PD radar to AESA radar in situ, a huge combat ability leap for PLAAF.

Only China can do it!

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## Army research

wanglaokan said:


> Convert all PD radar to AESA radar in situ, a huge combat ability leap for PLAAF.
> 
> Only China can do it!


Heck If it fits FC1 and PAF gets it for all it's older Doppler using Blk 1 and Blk 2 aircraft's, 100 in all, it would be a leap comparable to buying 50 new jets


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## 帅的一匹

Army research said:


> Heck If it fits FC1 and PAF gets it for all it's older Doppler using Blk 1 and Blk 2 aircraft's, 100 in all, it would be a leap comparable to buying 50 new jets


We have lot of genius in China, Kudos!

I'm proud for my country.

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## ghazi768

redgriffin said:


> Btw the Corsair saga is a perfect example of 100 piyaz bhi khana or 100 jootay bhi.
> Pakistan wanted a good attack aircraft as a B-57 replacement. The A-7 fitted the bill. Deal was for circa 120 aircraft. Then at the same time were negotiating rather successfully with the French for a nuclear reprocessing plant (hint plutonium route to nuke bombs).
> When the Carter administration came in, it held hostage the Corsairs against scrapping of the reprocessing plant deal.
> We didn't budge, hence Corsairs deal scrapped. Eventually the US pressure proved too much for the French & they scrapped the reprocessing plant deal as well.
> Hence "pani bhi na piya, glass tora 12 anay bill".


although it is off-topic, but if we have budged had we not given up the enrichment route as well as processing route? what do you say?


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## salman-1

I don't think so PAF would change all present thunders to this radar as it's new and untested yet. PAF would change only after plaaf is configured to it. And as far as buying new jets PAF is damn too slow than even India for deciding it.


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## araz

ghazi768 said:


> although it is off-topic, but if we have budged had we not given up the enrichment route as well as processing route? what do you say?


It only would have mattered if we had been of relevance to thew US. Without it US would have found another reason to cancel the corsair deal after we had brescinded on our reprocessing plant. You need to have some staying power as a nation. Without it you would be a total walkove r for the rest of the world. I disliked Zia for his role , but admired him for his courage. He showed the US how things are done, and probably lost his life as a consequence, but things were fine with US while he was there.
A

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## ghazi768

salman-1 said:


> I don't think so PAF would change all present thunders to this radar as it's new and untested yet. PAF would change only after plaaf is configured to it. And as far as buying new jets PAF is damn too slow than even India for deciding it.



In time...

Upgrading a 100+ fighters to AESA is too much of an opportunity to give up.. it completely changes the EW environment for you as well as for the enemy..


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## fatman17

To Celebrate 50 Years of Mirage Services 

To celebrate the 50th anniversary of its Mirage III/V fleet, the Pakistan Air Force has painted this Mirage VEF in special markings. The jet was seen by thousands on March 23 when it flew over Islamabad during the Pakistan Day celebrations. It is operated by 27 Squadron ‘Zarrars’ stationed at PAF Base Rafiqui under Central Air Command.

Serial 706 is one of two aircraft marked up to commemorate the PAF’s order for 18 Mirage IIIEPs, three Mirage IIIRPs and three Mirage IIIDPs in 1967. The other aircraft was on overhaul at PAC Kamra in late April. Alan Warnes

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## khanasifm

4th mi171 sAr sqn and 6th jf sqn plus aselpod http://www.modp.gov.pk/modp/userfiles1/file/Year Book 2015-16 Part-II.pdf

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## Inception-06

khanasifm said:


> 4th mi171 sAr sqn and 6th jf sqn plus aselpod http://www.modp.gov.pk/modp/userfiles1/file/Year Book 2015-16 Part-II.pdf



Who ever has made this file, dont know how our F-22P Frigates look, check the frigate picture it does not belong to PN, its a PLAN 053H3 (Jiangwei II) frigate 521 _Jiaxing._ Really sad, wonder what kind of people are working in this branch !






And what 47mm Gun ? We have 37 mm AA guns !

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## Advocate Pakistan

Ulla said:


> Who ever has made this file, dont know how our F-22P Frigates look, check the frigate picture it does not belong to PN, its a PLAN 053H3 (Jiangwei II) frigate 521 _Jiaxing._ Really sad, wonder what kind of people are working in this branch !
> 
> View attachment 398684
> 
> 
> And what 47mm Gun ? We have 37 mm AA guns !
> 
> View attachment 398685



And we made fun of Indians showing JF17 in their promotion. "What goes around comes around."

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## Readerdefence

Advocate Pakistan said:


> And we made fun of Indians showing JF17 in their promotion. "What goes around comes around."


Might be the same person who work for both of us

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## fatman17

The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has launched a process to procure an additional three Saab 2000 Erieye AEW&C airborne early warning and control aircraft.

According to airforcesmonthly.com, the Pakistan Air Force’s Marshal Sohail Aman said that that first aircraft will be delivered in December and the remaining pair will arrive next year.

They will boost the PAF’s AEW&C fleet, which is currently made up of three Erieyes serving 3 Squadron and four ZDK-03s with 4 Squadron.

The Saab 2000 Erieye AEW&C system provides Airborne Early Warning & Control and the rapid performance required to make the right decisions.

The aircraft, fully equipped for airborne early warning and control, can also be used for national security missions, border control, airborne command and control, disaster management coordination and for emergency air traffic control.

Saab issued a press release on May 15 announcing that it had signed an AEW&C contract worth SEK 1.35bn (£120m), with deliveries being made from 2017 until 2020.


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## Ahmet Pasha

Can these awacs be used for ISR of ground targets like a drone when needed?


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## khanasifm

Per article in AFM on Greek erieye the ground moving mode were suppressed to avoid af and army conflict so if needed can be turned on ofcourse at a price 

It may not be jstar equivalent but it does exists


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## fatman17

Forward Operational Bases have been activated.


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## Zarvan

I was just getting curious about SSW size. What PAF visions it's size to be I can't exactly remember but I think I read some where or listen that PAF wants SSW size to be 5000 to 6000 ?


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## fatman17

The Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) has completed the development of an air-cooled active electronically-scanned array (AESA) radar that it will now propose as a possible solution to the Pakistan Air Force’s (PAF) JF-17 Block-III’s AESA fighter requirement. Design and development of the radar was conducted by AVIC’s 607 Institute, officially known as the China Leihua Electronic Technology Research Institute (LETRI), and have already developed the SD-10 beyond visual-range active radar-homing air-to-air missile for the PAF. The institute’s announcement on the Chinese micro-blogging site WeChat, stated that the AESA radar will help offset the internal space and power limitations of many in-service fighters, providing these aircraft with an AESA radar that is easier to integrate than liquid-cooled systems, such as the competing KLJ-7A offered by the Nanjing Research Institute of Electronics Technology (NRIET).

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## fatman17

Zarvan said:


> I was just getting curious about SSW size. What PAF visions it's size to be I can't exactly remember but I think I read some where or listen that PAF wants SSW size to be 5000 to 6000 ?


What may be the reasons for this.


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## Readerdefence

*TURKEY’S ASELSAN IS SELLING EIGHT ASELPOD TARGETING PODS TO PAKISTAN FOR JF-17...*


Earlier in the month, Aselsan, one of Turkey’s main defence vendors, announced that it had secured a $25 million U.S. export sale for its ASELPOD advanced targeting pod. It did not disclose the country, but at this point is all but an open secret that the customer is Pakistan.







According to Turkey Monch Publishing, a leading Turkish language defence news outlet, Aselsan will sell 16 [edit: eight] ASELPOD advanced targeting pods under the $25 million contract. The delivery of the pods will begin in 2017, and the integration process take place in both Turkey and Pakistan.

In Turkey, Aselsan will configure the pod for the receiving platform – i.e. the JF-17 Thunder. This would include work on the ASELPOD’s software and communications equipment, to ensure that the system works with the native systems onboard the JF-17. Meanwhile, Pakistan will produce the external pylon or hard-point that will be used for the ASELPOD.

Aselsan reportedly competed against the Thales Damocles and Lockheed Martin Sniper for the contract, but won on the grounds of offering a package that offered the right balance of performance and savings.

The Turkish Air Force has 73 ASELPODs in the pipeline, which in time will join the 16 it is already using on board its F-16 and F-4 combat aircraft as well as CN-235 light utility transport aircraft.

Development of the ASELPOD is ongoing; for example, a two-way data-link configuration is being developed, this will enable the ASELPOD to double as an intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance (ISR) solution in addition to its principal role as a targeting pod.

The ASELPOD weighs 235kg and has a length of 2.35m. Its electro-optical and infrared (EO/IR) sensors can track up to eight targets at a laser-designation range of up to 25km, and a general range of up to 55km. It can track moving vehicles such as main battle tanks at up to 15km. The ASELPOD can be used a day and at night, and it is capable of being paired with laser-guided and INS/GPS precision-guided munitions.

*Comment and Analysis*

This is among two major defence programs to have been finalized between Turkey and Pakistan in June, with the other being a deal to upgrade Pakistan’s Agosta 90B submarines.

The Pakistan Air Force (PAF)’s rationale for procuring the ASELPOD could be drawn to three major reasons: First, the apparent desire to have the JF-17 support the Sniper-equipped F-16 in ground attack missions in Pakistan’s counterinsurgency (COIN) campaign over the Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA). To what extent this purchase is motivated by that desire, especially in response to the defunct deal for new F-16s, is not known.

Second, demonstrating the JF-17’s platform flexibility. By integrating the ASELPOD, the PAF can tangibly demonstrate that the JF-17 is truly compatible with a wide range of systems available on the market, including Western equipment. While some prospective customers could be content with sourcing the Chinese WMD-7 targeting pod with LT and LS-series bombs (e.g. Nigeria), others, such as Morocco, could prefer Western systems. The ASELPOD is proof that it could be done, and – to Aselsan’s benefit – it makes the ASELPOD an option for customers seeking a ‘NATO-standard’ system.

Third – while achievable through the WMD-7 – it enables the PAF to diversify the source of its tactical attack capabilities, which today is heavily centered on the F-16s, which are configured to use the Sniper Advanced Targeting Pod alongside the Paveway and Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM).

Unlike the Sniper and Damocles, the ASELPOD provides the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) with a higher margin of freedom in terms of munitions pairing and usage, and a lower cost and regulatory burden.

The PAF will likely push to pair the ASELPOD with laser-guided bomb (LGB) and precision-guided bomb (PGB) designs that are (or at least could be) produced domestically. For example, the Range Extension Kit (REK) produced by Global Industrial Defence Solutions (GIDS) would be a prime candidate for pairing with the ASELPOD. The JF-17 could use the ASELPOD to identify a target at stand-off range, and then feed the target’s coordinates to the REK-equipped Mk-8x bomb, which has a range of up to 60km. For solutions that are not yet produced in Pakistan, the PAF has the freedom to shop around for designs of its choice.

The TuAF and Aselsan are committed to the ASELPOD program. In the coming years the ASELPOD will see various improvements – such as two-way data-link its EO/IR sensors – as well as potentially EO/IR range extension. Aselsan has other programs in the pipeline as well, such as a photo-reconnaissance pod derived from Terma’s Modular Reconnaissance Pod, and a tactical synthetic aperture radar (SAR) reconnaissance pod. Whether the PAF would opt for these solutions is another story, but these are options.

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## khanasifm

REK is autonomous and does not need a ldp like aselpod its onboard ahrs and gps guided

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## TaimiKhan

khanasifm said:


> REK is autonomous and does not need a ldp like aselpod its onboard ahrs and gps guided


Well it makes sense. The pod is used to identify a target, if it can show its latitude and longitude then they can be transferred to the weapon on board and weapon is released. For laser targeting the range is less but the pod can see 40-50km out and if a target is out of LGB range then REK can be used. The article saying that pod can be used to feed coordinates to the rek.

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## fatman17

Following its first order last June, Pakistan has ordered a second batch of the ASELPOD targeting pod from Turkish defense electronics firm Aselsan. The $25 million repeat order calls for a total of 16 pods to be delivered and will be installed on Islamabad's fleet of JF-17fighters. Originally developed by Aselsan for the Turkish Air Force, the targeting pod has already been used on the F-16 and F-4E 2020 aircrafts. The pod works by marking the target with a laser while being monitored with the camera allowing for pilots to fire spot-on shots with sensitive ammunition.

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## mzeeshanfahd

fatman17 said:


> Following its first order last June, Pakistan has ordered a second batch of the ASELPOD targeting pod from Turkish defense electronics firm Aselsan. The $25 million repeat order calls for a total of 16 pods to be delivered and will be installed on Islamabad's fleet of JF-17fighters. Originally developed by Aselsan for the Turkish Air Force, the targeting pod has already been used on the F-16 and F-4E 2020 aircrafts. The pod works by marking the target with a laser while being monitored with the camera allowing for pilots to fire spot-on shots with sensitive ammunition.



REK is acknowledged by the PAF to be integrated ..... does that imply that aselpod is also integrated as well ?


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## CriticalThought

mzeeshanfahd said:


> REK is acknowledged by the PAF to be integrated ..... does that imply that aselpod is also integrated as well ?



They wouldn't invest all that money into it if they didn't have proof that it actually works on JF-17


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## salman-1

Does any body has any picture or knowledge where that new hard point is made to carry the Aselon pod.


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## Rocky rock

salman-1 said:


> Does any body has any picture or knowledge where that new hard point is made to carry the Aselon pod.




Like here in this PS photo.

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## TOPGUN

Rocky rock said:


> Like here in this PS photo.
> View attachment 400162



This is what the thunder should like a BLK 3 !!


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## Ahmet Pasha

Guys what are the of the thunder evolving into an f-35 like fighter. Would that be feasible?


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## TaimiKhan

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Guys what are the of the thunder evolving into an f-35 like fighter. Would that be feasible?


Better then to get j-31 as that is being worked on and looks elder bro of jf17.


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## Rocky rock

TOPGUN said:


> This is what the thunder should like a BLK 3 !!



Excluding the CFT's and IRST rest would surely be same.


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## Ahmet Pasha

Yes true. But moving forward we could have 3 layers a futuristic single engine multi role like an evolved jf17, next gen twin engine air superiority and the thunder as a work horse e.g interdiction, CAS, airstrikes etc. 

Most airforces these days have this layout.


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## TOPGUN

Rocky rock said:


> Excluding the CFT's and IRST rest would surely be same.



I would still love to see those 2 goodies on their


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## Rocky rock

TOPGUN said:


> I would still love to see those 2 goodies on their



Maybe in future but not in coming block.


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## TOPGUN

Rocky rock said:


> Maybe in future but not in coming block.



Agreed !!


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## salman-1

Rocky rock said:


> Like here in this PS photo.
> View attachment 400162


I hope it comes out like this, but the intake doesn't seem to have inner roots for such job, by inner roots I mean no space for routing the wires or mounting, as it's seems to just a plane body hull unlike the F-16 intake which was designed from the beginning for such a mount.


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## khanasifm

salman-1 said:


> I hope it comes out like this, but the intake doesn't seem to have inner roots for such job, by inner roots I mean no space for routing the wires or mounting, as it's seems to just a plane body hull unlike the F-16 intake which was designed from the beginning for such a mount.



There was no pylon mount in tally for pods in block 5 u think it was 10 or 15 when Lm added pylon for it 

Look at j10 and Jf pylon attachments will look like it


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## 帅的一匹

JF17 is the foundation of PAF, integrating with Arslan targeting pod make it an open platform access to both Western and Chinese precision guided munitions.

I'm look forward to the JF17BLK3.

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## khanasifm

fatman17 said:


> Following its first order last June, Pakistan has ordered a second batch of the ASELPOD targeting pod from Turkish defense electronics firm Aselsan. The $25 million repeat order calls for a total of 16 pods to be delivered and will be installed on Islamabad's fleet of JF-17fighters. Originally developed by Aselsan for the Turkish Air Force, the targeting pod has already been used on the F-16 and F-4E 2020 aircrafts. The pod works by marking the target with a laser while being monitored with the camera allowing for pilots to fire spot-on shots with sensitive ammunition.



I though first order was for 16 pods for 1 sqn now another order for same no of pods

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## 帅的一匹

PAF is a pragmatic airforce, they always try to bring out the best with limited budget. Salute to PAF.

Compared with it counterpart, spend wildly and get nothing done.









PAF JF17 had inducted Yings III type 390 targeting pod, have similar ability of AN/AAQ-33. Same type of targeting pod had been installed on J16.




J10b flyin with new generation targetin pod Yings III type 330.

I hope PAF shall hold excercise with PLAAF in a more frequently way, then China shall invite PAF to join our red flag excercise. Then PAF's pilotes have the chance to face the J20/Su35/J16/J10c.

It's very regret that PAF can't send F16BLK52 to China.

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## khanasifm

fatman17 said:


> Following its first order last June, Pakistan has ordered a second batch of the ASELPOD targeting pod from Turkish defense electronics firm Aselsan. The $25 million repeat order calls for a total of 16 pods to be delivered and will be installed on Islamabad's fleet of JF-17fighters. Originally developed by Aselsan for the Turkish Air Force, the targeting pod has already been used on the F-16 and F-4E 2020 aircrafts. The pod works by marking the target with a laser while being monitored with the camera allowing for pilots to fire spot-on shots with sensitive ammunition.



What is the source of this news ? Second order ? 

No pictures yet of JF with pod ?? 

Thoughts


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## khanasifm

As far as I can tell paf never ack having a Chinese pod only fc1 Jf has flown and integrated but paf never bought it there were Sipri claiming paf ordered it but paf never ack


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

wanglaokan said:


> JF17 is the foundation of PAF, integrating with Arslan targeting pod make it an open platform access to both Western and Chinese precision guided munitions.
> 
> I'm look forward to the JF17BLK3.
> 
> View attachment 400208


The YJ-6 is very interesting. Reminds me of the JSOW. 


khanasifm said:


> What is the source of this news ? Second order ?
> 
> No pictures yet of JF with pod ??
> 
> Thoughts


The Turkish Gov't's Public Disclosure Platform confirms another ASELPOD order (link).

Turkish news outlets believe it is from Pakistan.


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## fatman17

khanasifm said:


> What is the source of this news ? Second order ?
> 
> No pictures yet of JF with pod ??
> 
> Thoughts


DID website


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## fatman17

khanasifm said:


> I though first order was for 16 pods for 1 sqn now another order for same no of pods


Yepper

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## 帅的一匹

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The YJ-6 is very interesting. Reminds me of the JSOW.
> 
> The Turkish Gov't's Public Disclosure Platform confirms another ASELPOD order (link).
> 
> Turkish news outlets believe it is from Pakistan.


Yeh, looks like JSOW. You know PLAAF are quite a big fans of Western weapon than Russia ones. PAF always keep the weapon deal in low down, to paralyze their enemy.

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## fatman17

mzeeshanfahd said:


> REK is acknowledged by the PAF to be integrated ..... does that imply that aselpod is also integrated as well ?


The implications are true.

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## 帅的一匹

When Barahtis prefer to shout loud even inducting a foreign bullet proof jacket , Pakistanis are calm and pragmatic.

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## Dazzler

it is conformed, another order for Alsepod placed. 


Turkey’s ASELSAN announced that it had secured a $25 million contract to supply its ASELPOD targeting pod to Pakistan. The pods will be mounted on the latter’s JF-17 fighters. *This is a repeat order* and the first sale was signed in June last year. This round, Pakistan will procure a *total of 16 pods*.

http://alert5.com/2017/05/30/aselsan-secures-second-aselpod-order-from-pakistan/

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## HRK

*32* targeting pod for 100 blk-I & II JF-17, I must say it is quite a healthy number for the current JF-17 fleet

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

HRK said:


> *32* targeting pod for 100 blk-I & II JF-17, I must say it is quite a healthy number for the current JF-17 fleet


The MoDP yearbook said it was 8 for $25 m last year. With this new order it'd be 16 or 24.

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## Readerdefence

HRK said:


> *32* targeting pod for 100 blk-I & II JF-17, I must say it is quite a healthy number for the current JF-17 fleet


Hi usually how many one use In a squad 
Thx

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## HRK

Readerdefence said:


> Hi usually how many one use In a squad
> Thx



if you are asking about the number of fighter jets in a squadron then it vary air force to air force, usually 16-20 jest make a squadron.

If you are asking about the targeting pod than there is no fix number as a pods are mission specific device therefore their requirement are also dependent on threat perception so its number could vary as per perceive threats or mission requirements for an air force

In our case I assume 24-30 pods should be enough for whole fleet of JF-17 to deal with the current requirements

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## Readerdefence

HRK said:


> if you are asking about the number of fighter jets in a squadron then it vary air force to air force, usually 16-20 jest make form a squadron.
> 
> If you are asking about the targeting pod than there is no fix number as a pods are mission specific device therefore their requirement are also dependent on threat perception so its number could vary as per perceive threats or mission requirements for an air force
> 
> In our case I assume 24-30 pods should be enough for whole fleet of JF-17 to deal with the current requirements


Thx for your detail info


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## fatman17

Industry

Turkey's Aselsan to supply targeting pods for Pakistan's JF-17 fighters, says report






Gabriel Dominguez, London - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

31 May 2017

Turkish defence company Aselsan has secured a USD24.9 million contract from an overseas customer for the integration of its Aselpod electro-optical targeting pods into aerial platforms, according to a statement published by the Turkish Public Disclosure Platform (KAP) on 26 May.

Aselsan has secured a USD24.9 million contract to supply its Aselpod targeting pods for Pakistan's JF-17 fighters, according to Turkish media. (Aselsan)

The announcement was followed two days later by a report by Turkish newspaper Daily Sabah identifying Pakistan as the customer, and pointing out that this is the second order for the system placed by the South Asian country.

"Aselsan realised the first Aselpod exports last June to Pakistan, which has re-ordered a year later. The said system will be used on the JF-17 aircraft that Pakistan has jointly developed with China," the paper said in an article that was republished by Turkey's Directorate General of Press Information.

In its 2015-2016 yearbook Pakistan's Ministry of Defence Production had listed a USD24.9 million purchase of eight Aselpod targeting pods for the country's JF-17 Thunder multirole combat aircraft.

According to Jane's World Air Forces , the Pakistan Air Force currently operates an estimated 86 JF-17s.

The latest deal between Pakistan and Turkey is yet another indication of the growing defence industrial ties between the two countries. Earlier this month Turkey signed a contract with the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) Kamra for the procurement of 52 MFI-17 Super Mushshak primary trainers.

At the same time Pakistan's Karachi Shipyard & Engineering Works Limited (KSEW) signed a letter of intent (LOI) with Turkish defence engineering firm Savunma Teknolojileri Mühendislik ve Ticaret (STM) for the local construction of four Ada (MILGEM)-class corvettes for the Pakistan Navy.

Both deals were signed on 10 May at the 2017 IDEF defence exhibition in Istanbul in a ceremony presided over by Turkish defence minister Fikri Isik and Pakistan's minister for defence production, Tanvir Hussain.


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## POPEYE-Sailor

*Turkey's Aselsan targeting pods great video*

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## fatman17

The Sniper ATP contract is a not-to-exceed USD200 million indefinite-delivery/indefinite-quantity (ID/IQ) deal that also includes low altitude navigation and targeting infrared for night (LANTIRN) navigation pod sustainment. Lockheed Martin will provide sustaining activities that include depot-level repair and return of replaceable units, LANTIRN forward imaging navigation set and Sniper ATP support equipment. It also includes data, program support, depot lay-in; program reviews, and on-call technical support.

The LANTIRN/Sniper ATP contract work will be performed at Robins Air Force Base (AFB) in Georgia and in Orlando, Florida, and is expected to complete by 31 March 2022. The contract is a sole source acquisition. The contract is 100% foreign military sales (FMS) to various nations including Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Morocco, Norway, Oman, Poland, Pakistan, Romania, Thailand, Taiwan, Kuwait, and Turkey.


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## Deltaviper

PAF Bholari Coming along nicely! At this pace, it might become operational rather quickly.

[EDIT] : 

Before some here start bashing me, this is publically available imagery.

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## Rocky rock

Deltaviper said:


> PAF Bholari Coming along nicely! At this pace, it might become operational rather quickly.
> 
> [EDIT] :
> 
> Before some here start bashing me, this is publically available imagery.



Kindly share the source from where you get these pics?


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## blinder

Rocky rock said:


> Kindly share the source from where you get these pics?


terraserver.com


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## khanasifm

I think Karachi wing and rafiqui wing are over sized with too many sqn so may be new Wing will be created by moving sqn around plus Karachi has bird problem so ocu like 22 will be moved inland

But once mirage gone 22 may not be an ocu as jf sqn no goes up paf will need more than one ocu so 26 plus another one somewhere or 18 converted who knows


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## Deltaviper

Rocky rock said:


> Kindly share the source from where you get these pics?



terraserver.com as someone correctly pointed out above.


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## Sohail Afghani

fatman17 said:


> News Asia-Pacific:
> 
> 1. Thailand to buy 12 JAS-39C/D Gripens and 2 Saab Eri-eye AEW systems for US 1.08 Billion. Gripens will replace the ageing F-5E/Fs of the RTAF. the Lockheed-Martin F-16 and the Sukhoi SU-30 were also short-listed before settling on the Gripen.
> 
> 2. More details emerge on secretive chinese WZ-10 attack helicopter:
> powered by two 1,531 shp P&WC PT6C-67C turbo shaft engines with Full Authority Digital Engine Control(FADEC). although some sources suggest that up to eight trials WZ-10s may now have been built, only three flying prototypes have been confirmed. (Z10-01, 02 and 03). maiden flights on April 23, 2003. in 2001 China asked Denal to purchase one helicopter (Rooivalk) suggesting it was to be used for reverse engineering and therefore the sales was blocked.weapons planned for the WZ-10 appear to be largely indigeneous like the new HJ-10 ATGM and older TY-90 SRAAMs.
> 
> 3.India finalises plans for 40 more SU-30MKIs:
> clearence has been given for the US $ 1.6 Billion deal to purchase 40 SU-30MKIs from Russia for the IAF. the additional 40 SU-30MKIs will give the IAF a fleet of 230 SU-30MKIs. the indian govt has asked HAL to complete the delivery of these aircraft by 2013-14 instead of the originally planned 2016-17
> 
> 4. HAL to upgrade IN Sea-Kings:
> clearence has been given to upgrade 18 of the IN Seaking 42/42B ASW helicopters under a $ 200 mill programme. IN originally purchased 43 Seakings but were grounded due to sanctions imposed after the 1998 nuclear tests.
> 
> 5. Pakistan takes over Bell 412EPs:
> 
> already reported in land forces section.


India's military intelligence and RAW has developed deadly spy network along porous and risky Durand line under the command of Indian Military Intelligence ofiicer Col Vinay JM. Col Vinay JM is basically Maratha Light Infantry officer,who later shifted on will to get Special Forces Training, where he served for 3 years only to get shifted to Military Intelligence and then RAW to get deployed in Afghan border to train anti-Pakistan fighters. Col speaks 18 languages including Urdu,pashtun n Baloch. also he is expert in sabotage, explosives and internet technology.he has multiple social media accounts which he used to delete only to create new one. he used to raise Baloch human rights issues on various platforms online as well as offline one.
last year he had organized seminar on Baloch issue in delhi where he was greeted by tarek fatah. video available at this link 



though indian army don't allow its officers to appear in public platform, they have given Col Vinay concession in this regard to garner support for Baloch cause.
he is handling 16 MI officers in Afghanistan and almost 10 on iran Pakistan border. before arrest of kulbhushan jadhav he frequently visited balochistan through iran and stayed there for weeks together.
he planned n executed bomb blast under CPEC bridge in kech district in November last week in balochistan which has destroyed the bridge totally.after this successful operation col was awarded by indian army with cash reward and medal. the explosive used in the blast was military grade explosive.later he ordered his MI officers n agents to remove all evidences from blast site making pakistni agencies difficult to find out culprits. interestingly col vinay remained in the area for about 3 days after kech blast only to return to Afghanistan safely. his fluency in Urdu,pashtun and Baloch makes him almost undetectable in balochistan and Afghanistan. while in Afghanistan he used to wear afghan style turban and long beard and in balochistan he used to wear Baloch style cap.
he is also helping Baloch social media users training to propagate news related to Pakistani atrocities on Baloch people.
during January February 2017 col vinay visited European countries to meet brp leaders.the name of that country not known but it seems he was in Geneva and berlin which was facilitated by indian embassies in the region.
due to col vinay's autocratic style n arrogant behavior and unchecked financial n operational power in hand many RAW and MI officers are against him and pressure is mounting on authorities to remove him from Afghanistan. but this is very likely to happen in near future.
the only way to remove him from Afghanistan and balochistan is to launch aggressive and serious propaganda against him, so that the lobby which is acting against him, will get additional power and Col vinay would be immediately withdrawn from the region.
if Col Vinay continues to remain active in the region, he is certainly to create problems for Pakistan on Afghanistan and Iran border as his aggressive functioning and rapid movements are increasing his ground network in the region very fast.
hope that Pakistan army and pak media would take this seriously and act in time to stop further losses.
photos attached here are picked from one of the social media account which he runs. as per my estimate he operates near about 25 accounts each on facebook n Twitter
while in office he used to speak n communicate very rarely with colleagues and always seen busy in his dozens of costly n trendy smartphones. he has Globalstar GSP1700 Satellite Phone and many other unknown trendy gadgets with which he used to continuously talk in unknown languages.


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## TOPGUN

Deltaviper said:


> PAF Bholari Coming along nicely! At this pace, it might become operational rather quickly.
> 
> [EDIT] :
> 
> Before some here start bashing me, this is publically available imagery.



Is this a new PAF airbase being built ? and where ?


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## salman-1

Deltaviper said:


> PAF Bholari Coming along nicely! At this pace, it might become operational rather quickly.
> 
> [EDIT] :
> 
> Before some here start bashing me, this is publically available imagery.


What this Pak bholari, I don't understand. Is it a domestic targeting pod or a surveillance device. Plz explain


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## araz

salman-1 said:


> What this Pak bholari, I don't understand. Is it a domestic targeting pod or a surveillance device. Plz explain


New air base in Bholari. 
A

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## Deltaviper

TOPGUN said:


> Is this a new PAF airbase being built ? and where ?


Bholari, sindh. the GPS coordinates are in the images


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## TOPGUN

Deltaviper said:


> Bholari, sindh. the GPS coordinates are in the images




Its not what I asked anyhow brother Araz already answered the question thank you.


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## mingle

Rocky rock said:


> Kindly share the source from where you get these pics?


Google earth


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## Rocky rock

mingle said:


> Google earth



No the one he used was terraserver.


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## fatman17

Chinese BVR

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## khanasifm

THe base starts near national highway and goes quite a bit largest base perhaps as its in the middle of nowhere no close by populous except some small villages


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## fatman17




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## fatman17



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## royalharris

Maybe parkistan can consider j10 if you need


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## syed_yusuf

I think Pakistan should consider j10d


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## royalharris

I don't think there will be D model
The R&D resource move on to 5th G navy version fighter, 6th G fighter,stealthy bomber etc


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## volatile

Dont want to derail this thread but letting go J10B was a mistake and probably will haunt us till some thing new induction


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## princefaisal

syed_yusuf said:


> I think Pakistan should consider j10d


Yes only J-10D and J-31, nothing less.


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## his5850

volatile said:


> Dont want to derail this thread but letting go J10B was a mistake and probably will haunt us till some thing new induction


as for JF-17 vs J-10 it is not a mistake that doesn't make any seance i admit Jf-17 is not a great plane but because of that Pakistan have aeronautical industry now we are able to make planes Jf-17 is still cheaper to make and maintain then J-10 and PAF needed a light weight fighter so we have JF-17 program

As for F-16 yes it was a mistake we shouldn't have bought more F-16 instead we should have bought J-10 C which is same as F-16 and even better then F-16 in some cases


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## salman-1

J-10 will bring much needed punch and power against 272 vs 76 F-16s. Not buying it means refusing F-16 option in different shape. Scrap just 36-40 F-7 and Mirages and bring it in, Paf will feel the difference.

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## fatman17

his5850 said:


> as for JF-17 vs J-10 it is not a mistake that doesn't make any seance i admit Jf-17 is not a great plane but because of that Pakistan have aeronautical industry now we are able to make planes Jf-17 is still cheaper to make and maintain then J-10 and PAF needed a light weight fighter so we have JF-17 program
> 
> As for F-16 yes it was a mistake we shouldn't have bought more F-16 instead we should have bought J-10 C which is same as F-16 and even better then F-16 in some cases


F16 is a combat tested platform whilst the J10 is not. This is an important consideration.

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## litman

fatman17 said:


> F16 is a combat tested platform whilst the J10 is not. This is an important consideration.


this is the statement we commonly hear from PAF guys. according to this logic PAF should also induct P 51 mustang . oh no wrong. we have to build the complete infra structure and training for P 51 mustang so we should not induct it. stick with F-16 .mirage and F-7 till 3000 AD

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## salman-1

China has inducted approx 300 J-10s. When was F-7p was tested. Nowadays fighters can be easily judged by its capabilities and performance

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## araz

litman said:


> this is the statement we commonly hear from PAF guys. according to this logic PAF should also induct P 51 mustang . oh no wrong. we have to build the complete infra structure and training for P 51 mustang so we should not induct it. stick with F-16 .mirage and F-7 till 3000 AD


Have some respect for a senior member. We know what the difference between the J10,JFTand the P51 is. You are clueless about the finances that your country has. The choice of platforms will lumber you down for the next 30 yrs. Would you not rather wait 5 years and induct a 5th generation platform. Alternatively build up on the platfirm that you have already. Why do you think PAF picks up second hand F16s? Does it like collecting junk or is there some methodology behind it? You need to understand why certain things are done before you remark sarcastically to a senior member and think tank. By all means disagree but dont let go of civility.
A

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## litman

araz said:


> Have sime respect for a de ior member. We know what the difference between the J10,JFTand the P51 is. You are clueless about the finances that your country has. The choice of platforms will lumber you down for the next 30 yrs. Would you not rather wait 5 years a d induct a 5th generation platform. Alternatively build up on the platfirm that you have already. Why do you think PAF picks up second hand F16s? Does it like collecting junk or is there some methodology behind it? You need to understand why certain things are done before you remark sarcastically to a senior member and think tank. By all means disagree but dont let go of civility.
> A


look at the realities on ground. paf is the only operator of mirage 3 in the world and one of the 3 operators of mirage 5 along with gabon and ecqador. the most numerous jet in the paf is the f-7p which is obsolete jet by any standards. jft is good but it is no match for the su 30 . then we are left only with f-16 which are good enough for next 5 yrs. the 240 iaf su 30 are good enough for the entire paf. rafale will further increase that gap. right now paf is not a modern air force it is junkyard of the modern air forces. yes there is deficiency of funds and it would be ideal for paf if they induct about 50-100 of -16s block 52 or 60 but that is not an option. f-16 milna nae or koe jahaz ham nay laina nay. interesting . it will take at least 8-10 yrs for a fifth gen jet to be inducted in paf. till that time india will be having 270 upgraded su 30 and 36 rafales and we will be having only 76 f-16s and 150-200 jfts to counter them. so if a war breaks out during that time paf has few options. 1. to be totally defensive. 2. beg china to intervene. 3. request the govt to launch nukes .
by the way i didnt know that to disagree with a 20 yr old paf rant which we hear regularly is against manners.

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## CHACHA"G"

araz said:


> Have some respect for a senior member. We know what the difference between the J10,JFTand the P51 is. You are clueless about the finances that your country has. The choice of platforms will lumber you down for the next 30 yrs. Would you not rather wait 5 years and induct a 5th generation platform. Alternatively build up on the platfirm that you have already. Why do you think PAF picks up second hand F16s? Does it like collecting junk or is there some methodology behind it? You need to understand why certain things are done before you remark sarcastically to a senior member and think tank. By all means disagree but dont let go of civility.
> A


If you don't mind me asking ! How many J-31 PAF can afford to have and how much they cost in total life time ? And what will be the operating cost of J-31 per flight hour ? and the maintenance that fallow after ?
And foe hoe long you thing PAF can keep Mirages in air ?
JF-17 is a blessing but its a light Fighter , No matter how good eqm we load in it , Its still a light weight ! Only because of air frame .
Dear Sir , Will you please add up all the eqm cost (avionics + EW + Latest Radar ) and then the price of medium seize airframe . We are loading a Meharan with every thing we can get hand on "And that not the way". I am saying it because still no changes in airframe or engine.
JF-17 is here to replace old A-5s , F-6s and F-7s not mirages or every bird we have .
If we bring in J-10 that will be better for us , The price we are paying for Mirages can be added to J-10 programme . Yes it will cost us more but it will also gives us 40+ years .
I had enough of JF-17 is better or equal to F-16 , all those who saying this will come under investigation .

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## salman-1

If we just Look at IAF acquisition plans it's stunning. Why they aren't going for stealth, because it looks more better on paper than in air. Technology of stealth aircrafts is still maturing and will take a decade to come upto the expectations. 
France is delivering them just 36 birds in 3 years 2019-2022. They are going for 4+ gen aircrafts who's tech is tested and proven.
PAF in any conflict would realise it's mistake for not having sufficient numbers of high tech medium weight fighters. How it will fill the gap in short notice. God help PAF thinking. Only compatible aircraft which could be brought upto the 4+ is J series and most affordable among them is J-10 B/c type

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## CriticalThought

litman said:


> dont act like hussain nawaz for whom even being asked a question is his dis respect. look at the realities on ground. paf is the only operator of mirage 3 in the world and one of the 3 operators of mirage 5 along with gabon and ecqador. the most numerous jet in the paf is the f-7p which is obsolete jet by any standards. jft is good but it is no match for the su 30 . then we are left only with f-16 which are good enough for next 5 yrs. the 240 iaf su 30 are good enough for the entire paf. rafale will further increase that gap. right now paf is not a modern air force it is junkyard of the modern air forces. yes there is deficiency of funds and it would be ideal for paf if they induct about 50-100 of -16s block 52 or 60 but that is not an option. f-16 milna nae or koe jahaz ham nay laina nay. interesting . it will take at least 8-10 yrs for a fifth gen jet to be inducted in paf. till that time india will be having 270 upgraded su 30 and 36 rafales and we will be having only 76 f-16s and 150-200 jfts to counter them. so if a war breaks out during that time paf has few options. 1. to be totally defensive. 2. beg china to intervene. 3. request the govt to launch nukes .
> by the way i didnt know that to disagree with a 20 yr old paf rant which we hear regularly is against manners.



It is an epic mistake to say the JF-17 cannot take on SU-30 in a one on one. Somehow your concept of air warfare is that victory belongs to the force that has the largest number of most lethal aircrafts. If that is so, then let's sign the declaration of defeat today and invite Indian army to take over Pakistan, because you simply can't buy enough J-10s to counter the SU-30s + M2Ks + Jaguars + Mig 29s and very soon Rafales as well. Oh, and let's not forget the deal for either Gripen or F-16 Block 70 and potentially F-18 as well for their carrier. You're not gonna outbuy them even if you put the entire army's budget into buying aircraft.

Hence, your reaction is a knee jerk amateurish reaction wherein you are so bamboozled by numeric and technological superiority that you are making hasty, fearful, irrational decisions. Thankfully, PAF is a professional force, staffed with leaders of vision and calibre. Tell me something, amongst the many regional forces: Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Nepal, Bhutan, which air force has the balls to tell the Indians "We will teach you a lesson that your next generations will remember". These are not light words, and when dealing with an air force like Indian Air Force you don't just carelessly bark at them like this.

In terms of threats, you are so scared by Indians, have you stopped to think what kind of threat we face from Afghanistan? Remember Clinton's cruise missile strikes with complete disregard to Pakistan's sovereignty? Remember the OBL raid? Remember Salala? You have the Americans themselves glaring at you. No doubt if they don't themselves attack, they will arm and goad some regional player to do it on their behalf.

Now remember that Pakistan doesn't have strategic depth. In war, the enemy goes for your high value assets first. Any shiny new 4.5++ gen aircraft acquired for billions of dollars will be target number 1 for enemy missiles. When you lack strategic depth like we do, you want a solution that is cost-effective, yet poses a potent threat. Enter JF-17.

Where did you get the idea that JF-17 cannot face SU-30? For your kind information, the JF-17 is guarding your western border as we speak. The Indian forward airbases house SU-30 and in case of any misadventure by the Indians, the JF-17 will be pitted against SU-30. The Thunder has reached this level after exercises held against Chinese SU-30s. The PAF knows inside out what capabilities the SU-30 has and how to counter them. For your kind information, the SU-30's size makes it a light house in the sky and a big blinking dot on the radar screen. Soon, Pakistan is going to field 9 AWACS, not to mention the latest Chinese SAM systems. Meanwhile, PAC is getting the facilities to make AESA radars in house. Finally, no information is available regarding the true capabilities of PAF in terms of BVR missiles for Thunder. The only publicly available knowledge is regarding the PL-10. Recently, there were rumors on the forum about an independent IR seeker in development. Also, Turkey is in the process of developing missiles for the F-16. Why do you think these latest missiles wouldn't be available for JF-17?

Now, in an all out war, the Indian aircraft carriers will be dealt using ballistic and cruise missiles. The Indians will be extremely foolish to field a giant target against Pakistan. So there goes your Mig 29s. India will be the aggressor and needs to take into account SAMS and MANPADS in addition to our fighters. And you cannot even claim that these don't pose any threat. The reality of the situation is that we have actual kills against Indian aircraft using MANPADs. This is a black spot on the face of Indian air force, and here you are calling PAF a junkyard. Shame on you. Typical Pakistani mentality getting starry eyed as soon as you see someone flaunting shiny new toys.

Finally, Insha Allah, Block 3 will be as capable as J-10 except for payload. With air-to-air refueling, even range won't be a big problem, Insha Allah. So why do we need to buy J-10s? Meanwhile, with the air cooled AESA radars, our entire fleet of Thunders will be AESA equipped Insha Allah. With network centric concepts, it means legacy aircrafts such F-7PG and Mirage V will be able to fire accurately when a Thunder is around. The F-7PG is an excellent point defence fighter, by the way.

The truth of the matter is that Alhamdolillah, Pakistani airspace is very well defended, and with each passing day, our engineers at PAC and our pilots and airmen are making sure we only get better and better Alhamdolillah. But instead of giving thanks for what we have, we keep crying about what the Joneses next doors have. This thanklessness will hurt us more than PAF's lack of preparation.



CHACHA"G" said:


> If you don't mind me asking ! How many J-31 PAF can afford to have and how much they cost in total life time ? And what will be the operating cost of J-31 per flight hour ? and the maintenance that fallow after ?
> And foe hoe long you thing PAF can keep Mirages in air ?
> JF-17 is a blessing but its a light Fighter , No matter how good eqm we load in it , Its still a light weight ! Only because of air frame .
> Dear Sir , Will you please add up all the eqm cost (avionics + EW + Latest Radar ) and then the price of medium seize airframe . We are loading a Meharan with every thing we can get hand on "And that not the way". I am saying it because still no changes in airframe or engine.
> JF-17 is here to replace old A-5s , F-6s and F-7s not mirages or every bird we have .
> If we bring in J-10 that will be better for us , The price we are paying for Mirages can be added to J-10 programme . Yes it will cost us more but it will also gives us 40+ years .
> I had enough of JF-17 is better or equal to F-16 , all those who saying this will come under investigation .



A stealth fighter is a force multiplier. You don't wield it in huge numbers. Even 10 J-31s will completely change the face of battle.

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## Readerdefence

J-16 with WS-10 engines
the pitot tube has been removed to accommodate active phased array radar.
it is believed that China has already produced dozens of these beauties and it is expected that J-16 will become the backbone of the frontline fighters within the next 5-10 years...
So if we are really thinking of inducting J series after jf17 block 3 better to get our hands of this kind of beast with range & load


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## Trango Towers

its amazing to read the rubbish people write here.
jf17 is not a good platform
PAF lacks medium fighters
PAF is outmatched by india
PAF doesn't stick a chance

all written by Pakistanis. well guess what that same airforce has defended your skies. the enemy dares not cross the border. why? did you stop for one moment to think if PAF was that weak why the Indians are not bombing us daily? please unless you have credible information don't write such rubbish.
if the government asked you all tomorrow to contribute to an airforce fund you all with your families will be the first to complain of taxes. shocking behaviour

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## CHACHA"G"

CriticalThought said:


> It is an epic mistake to say the JF-17 cannot take on SU-30 in a one on one. Somehow your concept of air warfare is that victory belongs to the force that has the largest number of most lethal aircrafts. If that is so, then let's sign the declaration of defeat today and invite Indian army to take over Pakistan, because you simply can't buy enough J-10s to counter the SU-30s + M2Ks + Jaguars + Mig 29s and very soon Rafales as well. Oh, and let's not forget the deal for either Gripen or F-16 Block 70 and potentially F-18 as well for their carrier. You're not gonna outbuy them even if you put the entire army's budget into buying aircraft.
> 
> Hence, your reaction is a knee jerk amateurish reaction wherein you are so bamboozled by numeric and technological superiority that you are making hasty, fearful, irrational decisions. Thankfully, PAF is a professional force, staffed with leaders of vision and calibre. Tell me something, amongst the many regional forces: Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Nepal, Bhutan, which air force has the balls to tell the Indians "We will teach you a lesson that your next generations will remember". These are not light words, and when dealing with an air force like Indian Air Force you don't just carelessly bark at them like this.
> 
> In terms of threats, you are so scared by Indians, have you stopped to think what kind of threat we face from Afghanistan? Remember Clinton's cruise missile strikes with complete disregard to Pakistan's sovereignty? Remember the OBL raid? Remember Salala? You have the Americans themselves glaring at you. No doubt if they don't themselves attack, they will arm and goad some regional player to do it on their behalf.
> 
> Now remember that Pakistan doesn't have strategic depth. In war, the enemy goes for your high value assets first. Any shiny new 4.5++ gen aircraft acquired for billions of dollars will be target number 1 for enemy missiles. When you lack strategic depth like we do, you want a solution that is cost-effective, yet poses a potent threat. Enter JF-17.
> 
> Where did you get the idea that JF-17 cannot face SU-30? For your kind information, the JF-17 is guarding your western border as we speak. The Indian forward airbases house SU-30 and in case of any misadventure by the Indians, the JF-17 will be pitted against SU-30. The Thunder has reached this level after exercises held against Chinese SU-30s. The PAF knows inside out what capabilities the SU-30 has and how to counter them. For your kind information, the SU-30's size makes it a light house in the sky and a big blinking dot on the radar screen. Soon, Pakistan is going to field 9 AWACS, not to mention the latest Chinese SAM systems. Meanwhile, PAC is getting the facilities to make AESA radars in house. Finally, no information is available regarding the true capabilities of PAF in terms of BVR missiles for Thunder. The only publicly available knowledge is regarding the PL-10. Recently, there were rumors on the forum about an independent IR seeker in development. Also, Turkey is in the process of developing missiles for the F-16. Why do you think these latest missiles wouldn't be available for JF-17?
> 
> Now, in an all out war, the Indian aircraft carriers will be dealt using ballistic and cruise missiles. The Indians will be extremely foolish to field a giant target against Pakistan. So there goes your Mig 29s. India will be the aggressor and needs to take into account SAMS and MANPADS in addition to our fighters. And you cannot even claim that these don't pose any threat. The reality of the situation is that we have actual kills against Indian aircraft using MANPADs. This is a black spot on the face of Indian air force, and here you are calling PAF a junkyard. Shame on you. Typical Pakistani mentality getting starry eyed as soon as you see someone flaunting shiny new toys.
> 
> Finally, Insha Allah, Block 3 will be as capable as J-10 except for payload. With air-to-air refueling, even range won't be a big problem, Insha Allah. So why do we need to buy J-10s? Meanwhile, with the air cooled AESA radars, our entire fleet of Thunders will be AESA equipped Insha Allah. With network centric concepts, it means legacy aircrafts such F-7PG and Mirage V will be able to fire accurately when a Thunder is around. The F-7PG is an excellent point defence fighter, by the way.
> 
> The truth of the matter is that Alhamdolillah, Pakistani airspace is very well defended, and with each passing day, our engineers at PAC and our pilots and airmen are making sure we only get better and better Alhamdolillah. But instead of giving thanks for what we have, we keep crying about what the Joneses next doors have. This thanklessness will hurt us more than PAF's lack of preparation.
> 
> 
> 
> A stealth fighter is a force multiplier. You don't wield it in huge numbers. Even 10 J-31s will completely change the face of battle.


Sir , I can go on with you for whole year debating on this , But I chose not to. We will never match or catch Indians in numbers but the quality edge we had , we lost it and lost it badly.
Dear brother , the concept of "Defending Force" only is against Islam , Islamic teachings and warfare principles . Please tell me one thing 50 SU-30 attacking what will you do defend or air refuel ? JF-17 no doubt a great bird but its a light fighter which spouse to take on Migs and Jags and Max M2K of IAF that's it.
And one more thing for you "Have your horses ready" and horse is a machine .
And I have one more question , What if our advancing forces need air support deep in Indian territory? what bird PAF will use ? and what if IAF send birds to defend?
You said 10 J-31 will have the difference !! ok I agree !! But when will we have them?????

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## SQ8

litman said:


> look at the realities on ground. paf is the only operator of mirage 3 in the world and one of the 3 operators of mirage 5 along with gabon and ecqador. the most numerous jet in the paf is the f-7p which is obsolete jet by any standards. jft is good but it is no match for the su 30 . then we are left only with f-16 which are good enough for next 5 yrs. the 240 iaf su 30 are good enough for the entire paf. rafale will further increase that gap. right now paf is not a modern air force it is junkyard of the modern air forces. yes there is deficiency of funds and it would be ideal for paf if they induct about 50-100 of -16s block 52 or 60 but that is not an option. f-16 milna nae or koe jahaz ham nay laina nay. interesting . it will take at least 8-10 yrs for a fifth gen jet to be inducted in paf. till that time india will be having 270 upgraded su 30 and 36 rafales and we will be having only 76 f-16s and 150-200 jfts to counter them. so if a war breaks out during that time paf has few options. 1. to be totally defensive. 2. beg china to intervene. 3. request the govt to launch nukes .
> by the way i didnt know that to disagree with a 20 yr old paf rant which we hear regularly is against manners.


How much tax do you pay?
What is the budget of the PaF and are you aware of it?
Can you advise the EXACT expenditures of the PAF?

Seems your statements should reflect your knowledge so lets have it


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## ziaulislam

araz said:


> Have some respect for a senior member. We know what the difference between the J10,JFTand the P51 is. You are clueless about the finances that your country has. The choice of platforms will lumber you down for the next 30 yrs. Would you not rather wait 5 years and induct a 5th generation platform. Alternatively build up on the platfirm that you have already. Why do you think PAF picks up second hand F16s? Does it like collecting junk or is there some methodology behind it? You need to understand why certain things are done before you remark sarcastically to a senior member and think tank. By all means disagree but dont let go of civility.
> A


countries with econmies like pakistan cant even afford an airforce to begin with!
e.g Bangladesh
however, having said that there is no doubt that PAF is the most neglected branch of pak armed forces even though air forces are suppose to be the most important branch when you are facing a large enemy. so joint chief of armed forces need to get his act together and balance out the current resources more in favor of air force instead of pak army.


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## CHACHA"G"

snow lake said:


> its amazing to read the rubbish people write here.
> jf17 is not a good platform
> PAF lacks medium fighters
> PAF is outmatched by india
> PAF doesn't stick a chance
> 
> all written by Pakistanis. well guess what that same airforce has defended your skies. the enemy dares not cross the border. why? did you stop for one moment to think if PAF was that weak why the Indians are not bombing us daily? please unless you have credible information don't write such rubbish.
> if the government asked you all tomorrow to contribute to an airforce fund you all with your families will be the first to complain of taxes. shocking behaviour


Dear brother,
*Jf-17 is a great bird and blessing for Pakistan . After that other 3 points :*
Yes we lacks medium fighters and heavy fighters , Its a reality if you don't want to see it its up to you.
Yes PAF is outmatched , Not only in numbers but also quality and technology . Established Fact.
3rd (last one) if you take out religion and have materialistic approach , that is also a hurting reality.
IAF is not bombing us because we are not at war sir, and Yes PAF is there for defend our air space May Allah Bless them for that.
And then the fund or contribution , that is what I am asking , just look at IAF they have almost every type of bird and in good numbers too but there airchief always cry that we don't have enough . Why not we do the same and start telling the truth and start building up. Isn't it better to face bitter truth instead of false paradise. 


ziaulislam said:


> countries with econmies like pakistan cant even afford an airforce to begin with!
> e.g Bangladesh
> however, having said that there is no doubt that PAF is the most neglected branch of pak armed forces even though air forces are suppose to be the most important branch when you are facing a large enemy. so joint chief of armed forces need to get his act together and balance out the current resources more in favor of air force instead of pak army.



Few days back I posted a thread about corruption in waste company in Lahore and the figure is 1 billion $$$$$ . There are many thing wrong with our economy , but we are not that poor . Proper management can do wonders , Current ACM did many great things , one of them is the CITY which he is building , May Allah Bless Him for that.

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## CriticalThought

CHACHA"G" said:


> Sir , I can go on with you for whole year debating on this , But I chose not to. We will never match or catch Indians in numbers but the quality edge we had , we lost it and lost it badly.
> Dear brother , the concept of "Defending Force" only is against Islam , Islamic teachings and warfare principles . Please tell me one thing 50 SU-30 attacking what will you do defend or air refuel ? JF-17 no doubt a great bird but its a light fighter which spouse to take on Migs and Jags and Max M2K of IAF that's it.
> And one more thing for you "Have your horses ready" and horse is a machine .
> And I have one more question , What if our advancing forces need air support deep in Indian territory? what bird PAF will use ? and what if IAF send birds to defend?
> You said 10 J-31 will have the difference !! ok I agree !! But when will we have them?????



Remember Ghazwa-e-Khandaq?

Pakistan isn't Iraq where 700 coalition planes bombed Baghdad with impunity and they could only respond with ineffective AA gun fire.

Bringing down a complex radar surveillance system is quite a bit more complicated than what the Indians can achieve. And in the future we will only keep getting better with HQ-9 HQ-26 etc. Pakistan is a Alhamdolillah a very well defended airspace because for our little size we have a disproportionately dense SAM coverage, which will Insha Allah keep getting better. BTW, we have indigenous customizations on the HQ-16 to integrate it with link 17. We are going for indigenous development of advanced MLRS rockets which may be used for low level aerial threats as well. And as our relationship becomes stronger with Russia, we will gain EW technology from them as well.

I already explained that JF-17 is quite capable of taking on SU-30 today. With Block 3 its lethality will only increase.

The army is going for attack helos and droned. Once GIDS produces a MALE and then a HALE drone, the army won't need as much support from PAF, Insha Allah. And over time they should invest in mobile SAMS to defend against Indian jets. Meanwhile they already have kills under their caps using MANPADs. Too bad for the Indians.

The J-31 shall be ready exactly when we need them. The game the Indians are playing with Rafale is of EW. You don't need jet fighters for that you need latest gen ECM and ECCM for that. Cue AESA radars.



Oscar said:


> How much tax do you pay?
> What is the budget of the PaF and are you aware of it?
> Can you advise the EXACT expenditures of the PAF?
> 
> Seems your statements should reflect your knowledge so lets have it



The thing is, if new fighter jets were absolutely crucial to our survival, they would be made available by hook or by crook. Buying 8 submarines in one go along with upgrades on Agostas was unprecedented but it got done. If we don't have latest jets, it means in the order of highly needed weapons, they are slightly lower in rank. And it also means our posters are fretting about the wrong threats.

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## SQ8

CriticalThought said:


> Remember Ghazwa-e-Khandaq?
> 
> Pakistan isn't Iraq where 700 coalition planes bombed Baghdad with impunity and they could only respond with ineffective AA gun fire.
> 
> Bringing down a complex radar surveillance system is quite a bit more complicated than what the Indians can achieve. And in the future we will only keep getting better with HQ-9 HQ-26 etc. Pakistan is a Alhamdolillah a very well defended airspace because for our little size we have a disproportionately dense SAM coverage, which will Insha Allah keep getting better. BTW, we have indigenous customizations on the HQ-16 to integrate it with link 17. We are going for indigenous development of advanced MLRS rockets which may be used for low level aerial threats as well. And as our relationship becomes stronger with Russia, we will gain EW technology from them as well.
> 
> I already explained that JF-17 is quite capable of taking on SU-30 today. With Block 3 its lethality will only increase.
> 
> The army is going for attack helos and droned. Once GIDS produces a MALE and then a HALE drone, the army won't need as much support from PAF, Insha Allah. And over time they should invest in mobile SAMS to defend against Indian jets. Meanwhile they already have kills under their caps using MANPADs. Too bad for the Indians.
> 
> The J-31 shall be ready exactly when we need them. The game the Indians are playing with Rafale is of EW. You don't need jet fighters for that you need latest gen ECM and ECCM for that. Cue AESA radars.
> 
> 
> 
> The thing is, if new fighter jets were absolutely crucial to our survival, they would be made available by hook or by crook. Buying 8 submarines in one go along with upgrades on Agostas was unprecedented but it got done. If we don't have latest jets, it means in the order of highly needed weapons, they are slightly lower in rank. And it also means our posters are fretting about the wrong threats.


Our posters are generally angry uninformed young men frustrated with society but unwilling to do anything beyond rant about it online.
If they truly thought the PAF wasn't doing enough to protect them, they would go outside AHQ and protest there.

Doesn't mean they even have the prerequisite idea what they are talking about, but as is with most online posters- they'll skim two words here and four there and consider that they have an informed opinion on the subject.

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## Trango Towers

CHACHA"G" said:


> Dear brother,
> *Jf-17 is a great bird and blessing for Pakistan . After that other 3 points :*
> Yes we lacks medium fighters and heavy fighters , Its a reality if you don't want to see it its up to you.
> Yes PAF is outmatched , Not only in numbers but also quality and technology . Established Fact.
> 3rd (last one) if you take out religion and have materialistic approach , that is also a hurting reality.
> IAF is not bombing us because we are not at war sir, and Yes PAF is there for defend our air space May Allah Bless them for that.
> And then the fund or contribution , that is what I am asking , just look at IAF they have almost every type of bird and in good numbers too but there airchief always cry that we don't have enough . Why not we do the same and start telling the truth and start building up. Isn't it better to face bitter truth instead of false paradise.
> 
> 
> Few days back I posted a thread about corruption in waste company in Lahore and the figure is 1 billion $$$$$ . There are many thing wrong with our economy , but we are not that poor . Proper management can do wonders , Current ACM did many great things , one of them is the CITY which he is building , May Allah Bless Him for that.


dear brother.....thank you for your kind reply. I wholeheartedly agree with you that we need medium to heavy fighters with greater emphasis on technology. PAF also understands this. but due to limited resources i.e funds and sanctions etc we are unable to go to open market and tender like most countries do. 
Pakistan has developed the JF17 into a creditable and capable fighter. we are not putting on air to air refuelling probes for point defence. PAF always say this that we are a defensive force but do you remember when India was threatening us at the Time of general Musharraf he on open channels ordered the airfoce that if attacked we hit their bases and keep hitting them. we have the capability and our adversaries know this. but now to the point of better aircraft and corruption. I am with totally with you. 
if I had it my way I would get rid (one bullet to the back of the head) of every politician and develop new generation of politicians. our youth are generally good they are destroyed by the elders who simply refuse to change.


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## litman

snow lake said:


> its amazing to read the rubbish people write here.
> jf17 is not a good platform
> PAF lacks medium fighters
> PAF is outmatched by india
> PAF doesn't stick a chance
> 
> all written by Pakistanis. well guess what that same airforce has defended your skies. the enemy dares not cross the border. why? did you stop for one moment to think if PAF was that weak why the Indians are not bombing us daily? please unless you have credible information don't write such rubbish.
> if the government asked you all tomorrow to contribute to an airforce fund you all with your families will be the first to complain of taxes. shocking behaviour


it is not the air force indians are afraid of . firing is a common practice across the LOC but the neither the indians and nor the pakistanis are using their air forces because the use of the air forces makes the situation worse and an all out war will break out. such a war can turn into a nuclear war and millions will die. indians are not that much idiot to start a nuclear war with pakistan. so the reason they dont cross the border is not that they are afraid of paf but because of the nuclear war which will be MAD. dont compare the air forces of 65 with the present time. in 65 we had numerical inferiority but technical superiority . right now we are inferior in both sectors. in 99 this inferiority was at its worst that's why paf avoided the conflict because a professional soldier knows when to get into conflict and when to avoid it. read kaisar tufail 's blog about the paf and the kargil war and you will get a good picture.
paf is good and improving but not at the pace her adversary is making progress although iaf is full of corruption also. 

as far as donation of the funds for the air force are concerned i wont pay a penny till the time all the corrupt elite of pakistan dont bring the looted money and donate it for the betterment of pakistan and the pak military also reduces her expenditure on just protocols.

many of the posters here have typical mind set of living in dream world . making tall claims that we are the best. we are ready. we will defend every inch of the country but when something like abbotabad incident or salala incidents happen they go into hiding for sometime waiting for the nest 23 march parade to come back with their claims. i dont say that half glass is empty but i admit that the empty portion needs to be filled.



CriticalThought said:


> Remember Ghazwa-e-Khandaq?
> 
> 
> .


off topic but as you have mentioned ghaawa e khandaq because over here you are using it to support your statments but you shouldn't talk about it as we badly lost our ghazwa e khandaq after 9/11 when we were told that "either you are with us or you are with them" and the whole world knows our response. dont want to discuss it over here. dont use religion when it suits you.


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## Trango Towers

litman said:


> it is not the air force indians are afraid of . firing is a common practice across the LOC but the neither the indians and nor the pakistanis are using their air forces because the use of the air forces makes the situation worse and an all out war will break out. such a war can turn into a nuclear war and millions will die. indians are not that much idiot to start a nuclear war with pakistan. so the reason they dont cross the border is not that they are afraid of paf but because of the nuclear war which will be MAD. dont compare the air forces of 65 with the present time. in 65 we had numerical inferiority but technical superiority . right now we are inferior in both sectors. in 99 this inferiority was at its worst that's why paf avoided the conflict because a professional soldier knows when to get into conflict and when to avoid it. read kaisar tufail 's blog about the paf and the kargil war and you will get a good picture.
> paf is good and improving but not at the pace her adversary is making progress although iaf is full of corruption also.
> 
> as far as donation of the funds for the air force are concerned i wont pay a penny till the time all the corrupt elite of pakistan dont bring the looted money and donate it for the betterment of pakistan and the pak military also reduces her expenditure on just protocols.
> 
> many of the posters here have typical mind set of living in dream world . making tall claims that we are the best. we are ready. we will defend every inch of the country but when something like abbotabad incident or salala incidents happen they go into hiding for sometime waiting for the nest 23 march parade to come back with their claims. i dont say that half glass is empty but i admit that the empty portion needs to be filled.


And when the Indian had nukes and we didn't? WhAt was stopping them then. Even though our air force was in poor state.
Yes they have th bird but look at their maintenance and air worthy aircraft. Pilot training etc. Put you or me in a racing car won't make us a champ racing driver will it.

If you won't pay a penny until the loot returns then I suggest we all stay quiet on acquisition. Most people have forgotten the force multipliers acquire such as Awacs and refulers. This gives us eyes and depth.
Yes we could do with new bird but who will sell then even if we have the money


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## litman

snow lake said:


> And when the Indian had nukes and we didn't? WhAt was stopping them then. Even though our air force was in poor state.
> Yes they have th bird but look at their maintenance and air worthy aircraft. Pilot training etc. Put you or me in a racing car won't make us a champ racing driver will it.
> 
> If you won't pay a penny until the loot returns then I suggest we all stay quiet on acquisition. Most people have forgotten the force multipliers acquire such as Awacs and refulers. This gives us eyes and depth.
> Yes we could do with new bird but who will sell then even if we have the money


the thing that makes both of us fearful is mutually assured destruction from each others nukes.. they are not idiots like some of the members here on pdf for whom war is like a hollywood movie


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## Trango Towers

litman said:


> the thing that makes both of us fearful is mutually assured destruction from each others nukes.. they are not idiots like some of the members here on pdf for whom war is like a hollywood movie


Yes I agree
But when our air force was in trouble. No spares. No new aircraft. No nukes and they had nukes why didn't they take us


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## litman

snow lake said:


> Yes I agree
> But when our air force was in trouble. No spares. No new aircraft. No nukes and they had nukes why didn't they take us


ask them please.


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## his5850

people need to understand yes we need a medium multi role fighter Yes Jf-17 is not a great bird but it is good enough J-10 would have been good for PAF 7 years ago not now buying new plane it's need training money and 5 to 6 year time which is not sensible and *as for JF-17 why don't people under because of it we have aeronautical industry that's is more beneficial for us else we still be playing planes from china.*JF-17 is good but it would be better with few updates like new engine with more thrust helmet mounted sight and AESA radar which are coming with new block

PAF can not acquire a J-10 now in 5 to 6 year time period 5th generation plane are coming so we need to save money to buy J-31 that will work for US

And AS IAF goes i don't even know what the hell they are thing off they are have M-29 mirage 2000 SU-29 Mig-21 and rafales *that is a mess on it's on right because you have too many planes to maintain and you don't make them in your own country *


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## fatman17

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/874321109952458752JF17 cost per copy 35M $


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## khanasifm

I think 560 million / 16 aircraft eq 35 million per plane but its complete price with support, training , spares and weapons

Assuming 1-3 years support package ??


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## SQ8

fatman17 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/874321109952458752JF17 cost per copy 35M $
> View attachment 403275


Is that a finflash or just the specular angle on the tail?


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## fatman17

JF17 ready for delivery to Myanmar.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## HRK

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 403360
> View attachment 403361
> View attachment 403362
> 
> JF17 ready for delivery to Myanmar.



17*02*


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## fatman17

HRK said:


> 17*02*


???


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## HRK

fatman17 said:


> ???



- Sir the pic you shared have serial number 1702 which might mean the *second aircraft*, as per some previous reports we have to deliver Ruby Jet by the end of this June so going by this pic presence of at *least 2 ready for delivery jets is confirmed for first batch, *but chances are there for at least one more RUBY jet for Myanmar Air force in this first batch ready for delivery 
- this also indicating the pattern of serial numbering for Myanmar Air force

Reactions: Like Like:
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## salman-1

Apart from these Myanmar thunders. Can any body explain me if a engine service life before first over haul is 8-900 hrs how it comes in around 7-8 years. If the aircrafts fly 3-4 hrs daily in two flights minimum then around 120 hrs it flies in a month and in a year it comes out 1400-1450 hrs then it should complete it's life much before a year. Is the flying hour is more than an hr. I have no idea plz any body clarify my confusion .


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## TaimiKhan

salman-1 said:


> Apart from these Myanmar thunders. Can any body explain me if a engine service life before first over haul is 8-900 hrs how it comes in around 7-8 years. If the aircrafts fly 3-4 hrs daily in two flights minimum then around 120 hrs it flies in a month and in a year it comes out 1400-1450 hrs then it should complete it's life much before a year. Is the flying hour is more than an hr. I have no idea plz any body clarify my confusion .


Who said they fly daily for tht long. On avg PAF fighter pilots clock 180-220 flying hours per YEAR. so by that comparison engine usage is same and tht is why overhauling is after 7-8 years.


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## salman-1

Does PAF operates one pilot one aircraft. No sir PAF has cockpit to pilot ratio of 1:3. 200 hrs means less than half hr daily for one pilot. Needs more clarification


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## TaimiKhan

salman-1 said:


> Does PAF operates one pilot one aircraft. No sir PAF has cockpit to pilot ratio of 1:3. 200 hrs means less than half hr daily for one pilot. Needs more clarification


Yaar fighter pilots r less. Transport aircraft kae pilots koo na compare karoo, then helicopter kae alag pilots hain, kuch deportation per hotay hain, training academy have much high flying hrs obviously. 

They dont fly as u r imaging. I am near jf-17 base and i can assure u they dont fly round the day and for 7 days a week. 2-3 break days, sometimes lot of flying and sometimes just a few flights a day.


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## fatman17

Recent photos taken by Chengdu city spotters show that the first JF-17 aircraft for the Burmese Air Force is now out of the assembly line and is entering Flight tests.

The acquisition of the JF-17 by the Burmese armed forces was confirmed by their officers in November 2016 at the last Air Show in Zhuhai , without revealing the details. But we are talking about a contract on a total of 16 devices to 35 million USD piece by local sources close to the file.






JF-17
The first JF-17M (?) Is preparing on the tarmac of the Factory 132 in Chengdu (Photo: 背心 背心)
The exterior elements of this first JF-17M (?) Indicate that it is a Block II standard device. Originally developed by the 611 Chengdu Institute of the Chinese aircraft manufacturer AVIC for the needs of the Pakistani Air Force, the JF-17 Block II includes a detachable refueling pole, an improved avionics suite that allows the aircraft To exchange data with the AWACS ZDK-03 , a wider range of Air-Surface weapons and electronic warfare pods.

The mere fact that Burmese air forces have no airplanes or AWACS at the moment, and that this first aircraft is being manufactured in Chengdu, China, and not Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) in Kamra, suggests that Burma would have Requested customized changes based on the Block II standard, changes that require the first copies to be made by the design office and the original factory.

JF-17

JF-17
The JF-17 Block II customized for the Burmese Air Force is in flight to Chengdu (Photos: 中保镖 保镖)

Apart from Pakistan and Burma as the first and second customer of this light combat aircraft designed exclusively for the export market by the Chinese aircraft manufacturer, Nigeria also unblocked in 2016 the federal budget for the purchase of three JF -17 and thus becomes the third country to acquire the aircraft.

Sri Lanka, which appears to be interested in acquiring six JF-17s, has allegedly sent pilots to China to carry out tests.

To be continued.

Henri K.


----------



## fatman17

Air Platforms

Images show Myanmar Air Force JF-17/FC-1 conducting flight tests in China

Gabriel Dominguez, London - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

14 June 2017

Images have emerged showing what appears to be one of the first JF-17/FC-1 fighters on order for the MAF conducting test flights in China. Source: Via zhaizou.com website

Images have emerged on Chinese online forums showing what appears to be one of the first Pakistan Aeronautical Complex/Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation (PAC/CAC) JF-17 Thunder/FC-1 Xiaolong multirole combat aircraft on order for the Myanmar Air Force (MAF) conducting test flights in China.

Released around 13 June the images show a single-seat JF-17/FC-1 with the standard camouflage and tail insignia of the MAF being flight-tested at what appears to be CAC's airfield in Chengdu.

Diplomatic sources told Jane's in December 2015 that Myanmar had signed a contract earlier that year for 16 such aircraft at a unit cost of USD16 million.

Speaking on condition of anonymity, sources told Jane's in February 2017 that these aircraft will be of the Block II variant, which was first rolled out from the PAC's Kamra plant in 2015 and which, unlike the Block I variant, features an air-to-air refuelling capability and improved avionics and electronics.

China's state-owned Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) - CAC's parent company - is believed to also be providing technical assistance to Myanmar as the aircraft replaces the MAF's ageing Chengdu J-7 fighters, which were exported as the F-7M Airguard and acquired in the 1990s.

Myanmar is widely believed to be the first export customer for the Sino-Pakistani fighter, deliveries of which are expected to begin before the end of 2017.


----------



## fatman17

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/875312856266186752Myanmar JF17 order


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## Ahmet Pasha

Approximately how much money did pakistan make from this sale?


----------



## khanasifm

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Approximately how much money did pakistan make from this sale?


My calculation 3.5 gazillion  

aerospace industry margins are high compared to other industry


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## khanasifm

I see mod body after the intake near gun 4 dots are these ftc20 and j10 style pylon attachment on jf17 ?? https://www.google.com/search?q=j-1..._AUICSgB&biw=320&bih=460#imgrc=mZNx83llzEJcRM:


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## khanasifm

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 403360
> View attachment 403361
> View attachment 403362
> 
> JF17 ready for delivery to Myanmar.



I see under intake near the gun j10 style pylon attachment point ?? https://www.google.com/search?q=j-1..._AUICSgB&biw=320&bih=460#imgrc=mZNx83llzEJcRM:

More like ftc-2000https://www.google.com/search?q=ftc-2000+pylons+attachment&client=safari&hl=en-us&prmd=sinv&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiH-YrWvsHUAhWFNj4KHQwIDKgQ_AUICigC&biw=320&bih=460#imgrc=jAOqoAWvpJ-GkM:


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## khanasifm

khanasifm said:


> I see under intake near the gun j10 style pylon attachment point ?? https://www.google.com/search?q=j-1..._AUICSgB&biw=320&bih=460#imgrc=mZNx83llzEJcRM:



Or more like ftc-2000 style 

https://www.google.com/search?q=ftc..._AUICigC&biw=320&bih=460#imgrc=jAOqoAWvpJ-GkM:


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## fatman17

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Approximately how much money did pakistan make from this sale?


50%


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## litman

nice paint scheme of myanmar's thunder.


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## Army research

khanasifm said:


> I see under intake near the gun j10 style pylon attachment point ?? https://www.google.com/search?q=j-1..._AUICSgB&biw=320&bih=460#imgrc=mZNx83llzEJcRM:
> 
> More like ftc-2000https://www.google.com/search?q=ftc-2000+pylons+attachment&client=safari&hl=en-us&prmd=sinv&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiH-YrWvsHUAhWFNj4KHQwIDKgQ_AUICigC&biw=320&bih=460#imgrc=jAOqoAWvpJ-GkM:


Some professional closely zoom under the intake please, it seems to be a J10 style hard point


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## khanasifm

Or I need glasses


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## salman-1

A slight difference between J-10 and FTC-2000 is the location of attachment is just beneath the intake the proper way like in western fighters, where as in FTC case it seems to be a make shift arrangement. But if it works properly then no harm in it. This type of hard point usually are able to carry limited weight but enough for pods.


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## khanasifm

http://trace.tennessee.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3073&context=utk_gradthes


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## khanasifm

Interesting http://m.aviationweek.com/paris-air...m=email&elq2=5d638643363a412c9c488195b4474449


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## MastanKhan

salman-1 said:


> Apart from these Myanmar thunders. Can any body explain me if a engine service life before first over haul is 8-900 hrs how it comes in around 7-8 years. If the aircrafts fly 3-4 hrs daily in two flights minimum then around 120 hrs it flies in a month and in a year it comes out 1400-1450 hrs then it should complete it's life much before a year. Is the flying hour is more than an hr. I have no idea plz any body clarify my confusion .



Hi,

The flight time would be around 2-2 1/2 hours---. Te oxygen reserve is 3 1/2 hours. The aircraft don't fly every day---but rather 4-5 times a week---!!!!

@Bilal Khan 777


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## Silver Fox XN

Info Panjgur:
Subj: Recovery of Iranian drone
Sit, on 191300 Jun 2017:-

Drone shot down on ni 17/18 (180300hrs) has been recovered at 26-59-55 N
063-17-25E . 
Arng are being made to mov the drone by road to nearby post for heli lift.

Sqn Ldr zeeshan of 2 sqn shot down a uav near panjgoor, news Confimred.
He is the second UAV killer in the history of Pakistan.
First was gp capt zulfiqar.
JF17 shot down Iranian UAV inside Pak border.
It's a good lesson for many, that UAVs could be brought down.
It's first kill of JF17.
FIP








From Sources in Fauj

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## salman-1

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The flight time would be around 2-2 1/2 hours---. Te oxygen reserve is 3 1/2 hours. The aircraft don't fly every day---but rather 4-5 times a week---!!!!
> 
> @Bilal Khan 777


I am just curious if engine life cycle time. If it's 800 hrs how you distribute or manage in 7-8 years. Even if 200 hrs are logged in a year or less, even them max 4 years comes out to be the max usage time. Plz explain


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## Chak Bamu

If life of air-frame is longer than the engine life, then of course aircraft would go through more than one engine change in their life-time.


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## MastanKhan

salman-1 said:


> I am just curious if engine life cycle time. If it's 800 hrs how you distribute or manage in 7-8 years. Even if 200 hrs are logged in a year or less, even them max 4 years comes out to be the max usage time. Plz explain



Hi,

I think the life is more than double of what you wrote.


----------



## nomi007

Silver Fox XN said:


> Info Panjgur:
> Subj: Recovery of Iranian drone
> Sit, on 191300 Jun 2017:-
> 
> Drone shot down on ni 17/18 (180300hrs) has been recovered at 26-59-55 N
> 063-17-25E .
> Arng are being made to mov the drone by road to nearby post for heli lift.
> 
> Sqn Ldr zeeshan of 2 sqn shot down a uav near panjgoor, news Confimred.
> He is the second UAV killer in the history of Pakistan.
> First was gp capt zulfiqar.
> JF17 shot down Iranian UAV inside Pak border.
> It's a good lesson for many, that UAVs could be brought down.
> It's first kill of JF17.
> FIP
> 
> View attachment 404996
> View attachment 404997
> View attachment 404998
> View attachment 404999
> View attachment 405000
> 
> 
> From Sources in Fauj


name of drone


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## fatman17

Just a nice pic

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## Talon

TaimiKhan said:


> Yaar fighter pilots r less. Transport aircraft kae pilots koo na compare karoo, then helicopter kae alag pilots hain, kuch deportation per hotay hain, training academy have much high flying hrs obviously.
> 
> They dont fly as u r imaging. I am near jf-17 base and i can assure u they dont fly round the day and for 7 days a week. 2-3 break days, sometimes lot of flying and sometimes just a few flights a day.


Mostly one day break every weak aka MAINTENANCE DAY...and they fly a lot believe me



salman-1 said:


> Apart from these Myanmar thunders. Can any body explain me if a engine service life before first over haul is 8-900 hrs how it comes in around 7-8 years. If the aircrafts fly 3-4 hrs daily in two flights minimum then around 120 hrs it flies in a month and in a year it comes out 1400-1450 hrs then it should complete it's life much before a year. Is the flying hour is more than an hr. I have no idea plz any body clarify my confusion .


4 hours in 2 flights means 2 hours/flight which usually doesnt happen..most flights are of 1 hour max


----------



## his5850

*How Pakistan counter F 16 Production US-India Deal*
is Pakistan should buy an other 4th generation plane or wait for 5th generation FC-31???????? your thought


----------



## Rocky rock

his5850 said:


> *How Pakistan counter F 16 Production US-India Deal*
> is Pakistan should buy an other 4th generation plane or wait for 5th generation FC-31???????? your thought



Well it's matter of concern for Pakistan. India is desperately looking for 4.5gen single engine fighter. And what could be better than F-16 block 70 which no one has bought yet. The most advance version even US is going to modify it's F-16 fleet to make them run until 2045.

Tejas doesn't bring what india was looking for so they're going for F-16 now. To replace it's ageing 250 Mig-21's. It won't give any quantitative edge but qualitative for sure.

We must take adequate steps to bring jf-17 tech near to F-16 block 60. Then we can engage with them easily because we are already going to make century we are moving ahead of "india" in replacing old aircrafts with new "State of the Art" jf-17 with time to time we'll upgrade all to block 3 standards then we don't need to worry of these F-16s.

We can counter these f-16s with jf-17s but the problem is to counter 36 rafales and 270 Su-30mki for that we desperately need su-35 now if not so Fc-31 for sure not less than 4 squadrons.


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## salman-1

India is playing a gamble of huge investment, as it is privatising it's defence industry on a sudden note. Even in India people are debating on it, how come a non defence equipment making industry sets up a world class aircraft manufacturing and assembling company like Lockheed Martin. Do they have such expertise for such projects. I think as per history of Indian defence deals American will soon tata India on such deal. "Unchi dokaan pheeka pakwaan ".


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## Ahmet Pasha

Jf 17 with better engine near f-16 technology in near short term. FC31 in short term. TFX to become the tip of the arrow, the qualitative edge PAF now desperately needs in long term. Also, now we are going to have to raise our numbers because the threat is growing exponentially. I say this because I believe PAF is direly short handed. Cuz remember PAF does not even have the number of F-16s it had originally planned.


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## fatman17

Air Platforms

Pakistan confirms downing Iranian UAV

Gabriel Dominguez, London - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

22 June 2017

The government of Pakistan has confirmed that the country's air force shot down an Iranian unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) that was flying over the Panjgur district in Pakistan's southwestern province of Balochistan.

The unidentified UAV was downed by the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) on 19 June while it was flying around 3-4 km inside Pakistani territory near the common border between the two countries, according to a statement on 21 June by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs (MOFA) in Islamabad.

"Pakistan has already shared the information about striking down of this drone with the Iranian authorities indicating that the drone was struck down by our security forces as it was unmarked and there was no prior information about its flight," said the MOFA.


----------



## Windjammer

*Flight line maintenance usually requires a little more than oil and filter change. *

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Readerdefence

Windjammer said:


> *Flight line maintenance usually requires a little more than oil and filter change. *
> 
> 
> View attachment 406081


If someone can put up some CGI on this picture can be a f35/2


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## muhammadali233

Readerdefence said:


> If someone can put up some CGI on this picture can be a f35/2


Lmao


----------



## X_Killer

salman-1 said:


> India is playing a gamble of huge investment, as it is privatising it's defence industry on a sudden note. Even in India people are debating on it, how come a non defence equipment making industry sets up a world class aircraft manufacturing and assembling company like Lockheed Martin. Do they have such expertise for such projects. I think as per history of Indian defence deals American will soon tata India on such deal. "Unchi dokaan pheeka pakwaan ".


Achcha likhte ho , good.
Galtiyan aam baat h. Waise 'Dokaan' nhi 'Dukaan' hota h




Rocky rock said:


> Well it's matter of concern for Pakistan. India is desperately looking for 4.5gen single engine fighter. And what could be better than F-16 block 70 which no one has bought yet. The most advance version even US is going to modify it's F-16 fleet to make them run until 2045.
> 
> Tejas doesn't bring what india was looking for so they're going for F-16 now. To replace it's ageing 250 Mig-21's. It won't give any quantitative edge but qualitative for sure.
> 
> We must take adequate steps to bring jf-17 tech near to F-16 block 60. Then we can engage with them easily because we are already going to make century we are moving ahead of "india" in replacing old aircrafts with new "State of the Art" jf-17 with time to time we'll upgrade all to block 3 standards then we don't need to worry of these F-16s.
> 
> We can counter these f-16s with jf-17s but the problem is to counter 36 rafales and 270 Su-30mki for that we desperately need su-35 now if not so Fc-31 for sure not less than 4 squadrons.


I can see the FC-1 dubbed JF-17 everywhere on PAF articles but unable to find any "State of the Art" touch.
Anyways CHEERS for "State of the Art" dreams.
Good Day



Readerdefence said:


> If someone can put up some CGI on this picture can be a f35/2


 LMFAO

Anyways, from f-35/2, Select your choice:
Front or back ?

Reactions: Negative Rating Negative Rating:
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## Bossman

X_Killer said:


> Achcha likhte ho , good.
> Galtiyan aam baat h. Waise 'Dokaan' nhi 'Dukaan' hota h
> 
> 
> 
> I can see the FC-1 dubbed JF-17 everywhere on PAF articles but unable to find any "State of the Art" touch.
> Anyways CHEERS for "State of the Art" dreams.
> Good Day
> 
> 
> LMFAO
> 
> Anyways, from f-35/2, Select your choice:
> Front or back ?



Stop acting like an insecure women, who puts everyone else down so she can feel good about herself, typical Indians. What do you expect from people who pray to cows, monkeys and elephants, whose Prime Minister publicly declares that he drinks his own urine every day and where cow urine is the holy water. If you think you are so good and superior why is that despite all the hot air you cannot do anything thing to us except create stories of fake sir jee gal strikes. Even your fake propaganda has holes as big as India gate.


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## messiach

That is apologetic. Whether its marked or unmarked, notification or none, should not matter. Iran is a little fishy fish with stylish arrogance.



fatman17 said:


> Air Platforms
> "Pakistan has already shared the information about striking down of this drone with the Iranian authorities indicating that the drone was struck down by our security forces as it was unmarked and there was no prior information about its flight," said the MOFA.

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## Windjammer

Seems PAF pilots have been issued with some new accessories to carry a weapon.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Windjammer said:


> Seems PAF pilots have been issued with some new accessories to carry a weapon.



Survival exercise maybe?


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## fatman17

A first JF-17M for Myanmar performed its maiden flight on June 13, according to photographs that appeared on Chinese websites. The aircraft, serial 1702, wears the typical two-tone blue colour scheme associated with the Myanmar Air Force.

The aircraft had been spotted the previous day at the CAC factory airfield in Chengdu. On June 15 further photos appeared, apparently showing the maiden flight of 1701, the first JF-17M in the initial batch.

This first export sale for the JF-17 was disclosed in June 2015 but at the time the customer was not identified. Rumours soon began to circulate that the client was Myanmar.

The $560m contract includes an initial batch of 16 aircraft and there are currently negotiations underway for a follow-on contract. *Andreas Rupprecht*


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## Glass

im honest with u i think the f16 deal for india is extremly dangerous for pakistan and paf. U need some plans to counter it now i think the f16 deal will also bring us india closer which will be extremly bad for china so u should ask them for more support because they have these capabilities to produce another good single engine fighter

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## Talon

Windjammer said:


> Seems PAF pilots have been issued with some new accessories to carry a weapon.


not only pilots as the guy in the back is aint one (no chiraa)


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## khanasifm

fatman17 said:


> A first JF-17M for Myanmar performed its maiden flight on June 13, according to photographs that appeared on Chinese websites. The aircraft, serial 1702, wears the typical two-tone blue colour scheme associated with the Myanmar Air Force.
> 
> The aircraft had been spotted the previous day at the CAC factory airfield in Chengdu. On June 15 further photos appeared, apparently showing the maiden flight of 1701, the first JF-17M in the initial batch.
> 
> This first export sale for the JF-17 was disclosed in June 2015 but at the time the customer was not identified. Rumours soon began to circulate that the client was Myanmar.
> 
> The $560m contract includes an initial batch of 16 aircraft and there are currently negotiations underway for a follow-on contract. *Andreas Rupprecht*
> View attachment 406378



Who is Andreas? What report is this ?

I guess to replace all a5 and f7s in maf???


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## fatman17

khanasifm said:


> Who is Andreas? What report is this ?
> 
> I guess to replace all a5 and f7s in maf???


AFM Magazine


----------



## Rocky rock

X_Killer said:


> Achcha likhte ho , good.
> Galtiyan aam baat h. Waise 'Dokaan' nhi 'Dukaan' hota h
> 
> 
> 
> I can see the FC-1 dubbed JF-17 everywhere on PAF articles but unable to find any "State of the Art" touch.
> Anyways CHEERS for "State of the Art" dreams.
> Good Day
> 
> 
> LMFAO
> 
> Anyways, from f-35/2, Select your choice:
> Front or back ?



Here you can hear about "State of the art" tech words used by "David Donald" Defense Journalist, for JF-17 thunder at "PAS".


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## fatman17

Nigerian sale may be in jeopardy, as NAF purchases 12 SU30 from Russia.

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## fatman17

Military Capabilities

Nigeria reportedly acquiring 12 Su-30 fighters

Jeremy Binnie, London - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

26 June 2017

Nigeria received two Sukhoi Su-30 multirole fighters earlier this year and will receive another 10 in 2018, the Sputnik news agency reported a senior Russian official as saying on 26 June.

"In 2018, Russia will supply 10 Su-30 aircraft. Thus, the contract will be completed by the end of next year," said Anatoliy Punchuk, the deputy director of the Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation (FSMTC).

The report did not identify the Su-30 variant that was being acquired by Nigeria, which was not previously known to be interested in the aircraft. The Nigerian Air Force was known to be lining up the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) JF-17 Thunder, but the finalisation of that deal has yet to be confirmed.


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## fatman17

Mystery aircraft changing registrations.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Is it a Pakistani aircraft?


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## CriticalThought

fatman17 said:


> Nigerian sale may be in jeopardy, as NAF purchases 12 SU30 from Russia.



Need to invite a couple of MKIs for tea and blast them out of the sky to show Nigerians who is boss.

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## fatman17

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Is it a Pakistani aircraft?


Yes AP is used for Pakistan registrations


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## TOPGUN

fatman17 said:


> Yes AP is used for Pakistan registrations



Maybe used by ISI ?


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## Blue Marlin

TOPGUN said:


> Maybe used by ISI ?


theres a similar bird owned by the pakistan mod, it's called eye77

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## Ahmet Pasha

Leave the organzitions business to itself. 



Blue Marlin said:


> theres a similar bird owned by the pakistan mod, it's called eye77



Looks like an Embraer Phenom series,no?


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## muhammadali233

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Leave the organzitions business to itself.
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like an Embraer Phenom series,no?


Bombardier Challenger 600
Phenom is a very small jet
PAF phenom

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## fatman17

YJ-12 (CM302) vs XASM-3

CM-302 anti-ship cruise missile: China’s BrahMos Competitor?



At Air Show China, which took place in Zhuhai last week, China Aerospace Science & Industry Corporation (CASIC) had marketed new supersonic anti-ship cruise missile (ASCM) – the CM-302.

IHS Jane’s believes the CM-302 to be “closely related” to the YJ-12 ASCM, which utilizes a ramjet engine to cruise at supersonic speed – Mach 2 (at low-altitude) to over Mach 3 (at high-altitude).

However, it is not clear if the CM-302 is in fact the YJ-12. Shephard Media reported that the CM-302 is the export variant of the YJ-18, which accelerates to supersonic speed during its terminal phase.

Notes & Comments:

If the aim is to directly compete against the Indo-Russian BrahMos, then CASC will have derived the CM-302 ASCM from the YJ-12. Supersonic cruising is one of the BrahMos’ marquee features, which imbues it with a higher threat rating than subsonic anti-ship missiles, such as the Exocet and C-802.

A look at the CM-302 ASCM (as shown at Air Show China 2016) clearly shows that it has intakes for an air-breathing engine. The design is identical to the ramjet-powered YJ-12. However, as with all export-grade missiles from China, the CM-302’s range is capped to 290 km.

China Aerospace Science and Technology Corporation (CASC) has been working to offer a direct analogue to the BrahMos since at least 2014, when it had unveiled its CX-1 ASCM, which was envisaged with a scramjet engine (Aviation Week). CASIC’s CM-302 directly competes with the CASC CX-1.

The CASIC YJ-12 was cleared for use from the People’s Liberation Army Navy (PLAN)’s H-6G bombers and JH-7B fighter-bombers (U.S Department of Defense). The PLAN and People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) were also in the process of integrating the YJ-12 to their respective J-16 and J-11 fleets (IHS Jane’s).

The CM-302 is expected to attract a strong customer base, especially since it is among a handful of cruising supersonic ASCMs on the market. China’s leading conventional arms client Pakistan could be viewed as a strong potential CM-302 customer, which could utilize the CM-302 from land and potentially even surface warships and submarines to bolster its anti-access and area denial capabilities.

Terminology:

For background information on cruise missiles – including anti-ship cruise missiles – please refer to Quwa’s brief on cruise missile technology. Quwa’s series on Pakistan’s pursuit of force-multiplier assets should offer context on why Pakistan could be a potential CM-302 customer.

http://quwa.org/2016/11/09/cm-302-an...os-competitor/

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## fatman17

Russia’s Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation (FSMTC) has announced that United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) have delivered two Su-30 fighter aircraft to the government of Nigeria. Ten more aircraft are scheduled to be delivered in 2018. The acquisition is one of several air platforms being procured for the Nigerian Air Force (NAF), with $68.76 million earmarked “for counter air, counter surface, air ops for strategic effect and air support operations.” These include purchases of JF-17 fighters from Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), Mi-35M helicopters, and the A-29 Super Tucano for COIN operations.

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## fatman17

3 JF17B are under construction at CAC, Chengdu with 2 to be delivered to the PAF and the 3rd example for further testing and evaluation at CAC.

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## volatile

fatman17 said:


> 3 JF17B are under construction at CAC, Chengdu with 2 to be delivered to the PAF and the 3rd example for further testing and evaluation at CAC.


Hi Can you please also share if the production JF17 B will be same as per flight tested one or we can see some tweeks


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## CriticalThought

fatman17 said:


> 3 JF17B are under construction at CAC, Chengdu with 2 to be delivered to the PAF and the 3rd example for further testing and evaluation at CAC.



Sir can you please share the specs for JF17B? Things like payload, combat radius, max speed, engine being used etc.


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## fatman17

CriticalThought said:


> Sir can you please share the specs for JF17B? Things like payload, combat radius, max speed, engine being used etc.


The only difference is the slanted tail fin and the 2nd seat. The engine is the same, slight difference in payload bcuz of the 2nd seat. JF17B will be used as LIFT in the PAF, Whether it's going to be armed or unarmed we have to wait. Remember a few FT7P in PAF service were unarmed, as they didn't have the built in cannon.

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## khanasifm

I think the weight normal take off went up to 9400 kg vs 9000kg pretty good comparing additional ejection seat plus other stuff in cockpit plus additional tanks to add fuel , fuel is same range and other specs should be same as well or close to single seater the max take off went to ?? But assuming catac was displaying 13.5 tons and another website stating 4600 kg external load who know unless specs were displayed at Paris air show ??

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## khanasifm

Per Alan warren based on his recent visit and discussion with paf chief jf will not be LIFT

looks like k8 is LIFT for now

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## fatman17

YJ-12 is first of the new generation of supersonic long-range AshMs which just entered the service with PLAN. A model of a mysterious supersonic ASM similar to French ASMP was first unveiled at the 2006 Zhuhai Airshow underneath the wing of a JH-7. However the initial speculation of a twin side air intake design as the possible configuration of YJ-12 turned out to be false. Developed by CASIC, YJ-12 appears bigger than Russian Kh-31 but smaller than Kh-41. It features an integrated liquid fuel ramjet engine with a solid rocket booster. Four long narrow air intakes are attached to the body in an "X" arrangement. The missile is thought to have a cruise speed of Mach 2.5-3.5 and a range of 150-300km, depending on its cruising altitude. It typically flies a low-high-low profile. After launched from the carrier, it first climbs and cruises at a relatively high altitude before diving to a sea-skimming level at terminal stage and performs large-scale maneuvers to avoid interception. Compared to the earlier YJ-83, YJ-12 is thought to carry a large warhead (250kg) capable of inducing substantial damage to large surface ships including aircraft carrier. YJ-12 was believed to have been test-fired from modified H-6G prototypes between 2009 and 2010 and currently is in service with PLAN H-6G (x2). The missile was speculated to be carried by PLAN J-15A/B (x1), J-16H (x2) and H-6KH (x6). YJ-12 was officially unveiled during the 2015 VJ Day Parade in Beijing. Its export version was first unveiled at the 2016 Zhuhai Airshow as CM-302.

- Last Updated 6/28/17


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

khanasifm said:


> Per Alan warren based on his recent visit and discussion with paf chief jf will not be LIFT
> 
> looks like k8 is LIFT for now


The PAF was complaining that all of today's LIFT options were overkill in features and capabilities...and it's right.

Of the options available, not a single one is a pure low-cost trainer, but rather light fighters with stripped-down sub-systems. As a result, the PAF found that the operating costs of some of these LIFT was close, if not higher, than that of the JF-17 and F-16.

Alan Warnes said the PAF will use FT-7P in the LIFT role for the time being.

Theory: I believe the PAF would ultimately prefer a modern, but simple and low-cost platform for LIFT. It is waiting for the Turkish Freedom Trainer. 

Sierra Nevada Corp's is partnering with Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) to develop the Freedom Trainer, which they say is ... "a *purely a fly-by-wire trainer,* seeming to leave little design margin for secondary light-attack or aggressor roles. Instead, the aircraft digitally replicates radar intercepts, precision-guided munition drops and the use of targeting pods." It'll be powered by two FJ44-4M turbofans, a low-cost simple non-ITAR engine.

http://aviationweek.com/defense/sierra-nevada-corp-tai-team-offer-freedom-trainer-t-x


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## CriticalThought

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The PAF was complaining that all of today's LIFT options were overkill in features and capabilities...and it's right.
> 
> Of the options available, not a single one is a pure low-cost trainer, but rather light fighters with stripped-down sub-systems. As a result, the PAF found that the operating costs of some of these LIFT was close, if not higher, than that of the JF-17 and F-16.
> 
> Alan Warnes said the PAF will use FT-7P in the LIFT role for the time being.
> 
> Theory: I believe the PAF would ultimately prefer a modern, but simple and low-cost platform for LIFT. It is waiting for the Turkish Freedom Trainer.
> 
> Sierra Nevada Corp's is partnering with Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) to develop the Freedom Trainer, which they say is ... "a *purely a fly-by-wire trainer,* seeming to leave little design margin for secondary light-attack or aggressor roles. Instead, the aircraft digitally replicates radar intercepts, precision-guided munition drops and the use of targeting pods." It'll be powered by two FJ44-4M turbofans, a low-cost simple non-ITAR engine.
> 
> http://aviationweek.com/defense/sierra-nevada-corp-tai-team-offer-freedom-trainer-t-x



Sir, then what is the purpose of JF-17B?


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## fatman17

CriticalThought said:


> Sir, then what is the purpose of JF-17B?


If not LIFT, then OCU and for export customers esp in the 3rd world. It will help with sales orders.

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## CriticalThought

fatman17 said:


> If not LIFT, then OCU and for export customers esp in the 3rd world. It will help with sales orders.



If it gets RD-93 MA with higher thrust, the payload should go up correspondingly. With better payload and power it could serve roles of wild weasel, strike, and even mini-command control from where wing commanders can see over the battle, especially inside enemy territory. The platform has a lot of potential in it. Even for third party customers, a 25+ million dollar jet should provide much more than LIFT or OCU.

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## fatman17

CriticalThought said:


> If it gets RD-93 MA with higher thrust, the payload should go up correspondingly. With better payload and power it could serve roles of wild weasel, strike, and even mini-command control from where wing commanders can see over the battle, especially inside enemy territory. The platform has a lot of potential in it. Even for third party customers, a 25+ million dollar jet should provide much more than LIFT or OCU.


Let the B evolve, it's too early to say what's gonna happen. 2 examples are being sent to Kamra for a reason.

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## syed_yusuf

fatman17 said:


> Let the B evolve, it's too early to say what's gonna happen. 2 examples are being sent to Kamra for a reason.


when are they coming to Kamra?


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## X_Killer

CriticalThought said:


> Need to invite a couple of MKIs for tea and blast them out of the sky to show Nigerians who is boss.


You need a very tight sleep in urgent.
Cheers



fatman17 said:


> 3 JF17B are under construction at CAC, Chengdu with 2 to be delivered to the PAF and the 3rd example for further testing and evaluation at CAC.


CONSTRUCTION ??
LMFAO

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

CriticalThought said:


> If it gets RD-93 MA with higher thrust, the payload should go up correspondingly. With better payload and power it could serve roles of wild weasel, strike, and even mini-command control from where wing commanders can see over the battle, especially inside enemy territory. The platform has a lot of potential in it. Even for third party customers, a 25+ million dollar jet should provide much more than LIFT or OCU.


Like the others, the JF-17B is also overkill for what the PAF envisions as a LIFT. For now, only the SNC-TAI Freedom Trainer matches the PAF's vision.


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## CriticalThought

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Like the others, the JF-17B is also overkill for what the PAF envisions as a LIFT. For now, only the SNC-TAI Freedom Trainer matches the PAF's vision.



What about our very own K-8?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

CriticalThought said:


> What about our very own K-8?


It's under-powered for the LIFT role. The Freedom Trainer is basically an enlarged twin-engine K-8 and, unlike the idea of a twin-engine K-8, we have two major vendors (SNC and TAI) and a major air force (Turkey) backing it.

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## salarsikander

X_Killer said:


> Achcha likhte ho , good.
> Galtiyan aam baat h. Waise 'Dokaan' nhi 'Dukaan' hota h
> 
> 
> 
> I can see the FC-1 dubbed JF-17 everywhere on PAF articles but unable to find any "State of the Art" touch.
> Anyways CHEERS for "State of the Art" dreams.
> Good Day
> 
> 
> LMFAO
> 
> Anyways, from f-35/2, Select your choice:
> Front or back ?


@waz @Jungibaaz Pos reported for constant trolling


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## Ahmet Pasha

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It's under-powered for the LIFT role. The Freedom Trainer is basically an enlarged twin-engine K-8 and, unlike the idea of a twin-engine K-8, we have two major vendors (SNC and TAI) and a major air force (Turkey) backing it.



What about hurkus c. It is a nice trainer and CAS platform.

Moreover, the preliminary pictures for the freedom trainer resemble the F-5 tiger.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Ahmet Pasha said:


> What about hurkus c. It is a nice trainer and CAS platform.
> 
> Moreover, the preliminary pictures for the freedom trainer resemble the F-5 tiger.


The Freedom Trainer's design is similar to the Textron Scorpion, but lighter and less complicated. 

The Hurkus is not a LIFT platform.


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## fatman17

Production Ceremony JF17B

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## fatman17

Just a nice pic

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## Ahmet Pasha

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The Freedom Trainer's design is similar to the Textron Scorpion, but lighter and less complicated.
> 
> The Hurkus is not a LIFT platform.



Hmm i guess i was looking at raytheons TX plane.


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## DarX

I don't really understand the rational of inducting a separate aircraft for lift training. If the JF-17B operations might cost a slightly more than lesser powered trainer jets, it will also allow the MRO lines to be minimized by sticking to one plane. It will also allow the pilots to get an idea of the JF-17 planes, rather than having to go through another conversion course on the JF-17B after their LIFT training. In any case, the JF-17B seems to be a perfect aircraft for comprehensive training of the PAF pilots, in addition to its use in reconnaissance, fighter bombing and other specialized roles. 

Or else the K-8 can be upgraded with avionics to provide the trainees with experience of combat training, as per LIFT training definition.

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## MystryMan

Any news or updates from Paris air show?


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## messiach

Simple ceremony. Hallmark Chinese. In sharp contrast with our great boast-little roast official ceremonies.



fatman17 said:


> View attachment 407394
> 
> Production Ceremony JF17B

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## fatman17

PAF Base Qadri?

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## HRK

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 407524
> View attachment 407525
> 
> PAF Base Qadri?



PAF Air base Qadri (Skardu Air Base)






> Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman visited the *Qadri Airbase in Skardu *where war exercises by fighter jet squadrons are being held.


https://www.geo.tv/latest/143104-al...l-following-indian-air-chiefs-internal-letter

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## fatman17

HRK said:


> PAF Air base Qadri (Skardu Air Base)
> View attachment 407537
> 
> 
> https://www.geo.tv/latest/143104-al...l-following-indian-air-chiefs-internal-letter


Thanks, one learns something new everyday.

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## Furqan Sarwar

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 407394
> 
> Production Ceremony JF17B



Sir this pic shows 4 Air frames. We heard that 3 JF-17B were getting produced


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## khanasifm

fatman17 said:


> Thanks, one learns something new everyday.



Is that a flood retaining wall in the background ???


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## fatman17

Furqan Sarwar said:


> Sir this pic shows 4 Air frames. We heard that 3 JF-17B were getting produced


Apparently there is a J10 in there also.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

fatman17 said:


> Apparently there is a J10 in there also.



Sir,
Could this J-10 be one of the ordered Bangladesh aircraft?

It also seems that this facility is now being used by the chinese for export orders or for testing.

Please see this post 1794.
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/sac-...f-updates-debate.343466/page-120#post-9621599


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## fatman17

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Sir,
> Could this J-10 be one of the ordered Bangladesh aircraft?
> 
> It also seems that this facility is now being used by the chinese for export orders or for testing.
> 
> Please see this post 1794.
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/sac-...f-updates-debate.343466/page-120#post-9621599


I have no idea.


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## Bilal Khan 777

Silver Fox XN said:


> Info Panjgur:
> Subj: Recovery of Iranian drone
> Sit, on 191300 Jun 2017:-
> 
> Drone shot down on ni 17/18 (180300hrs) has been recovered at 26-59-55 N
> 063-17-25E .
> Arng are being made to mov the drone by road to nearby post for heli lift.
> 
> Sqn Ldr zeeshan of 2 sqn shot down a uav near panjgoor, news Confimred.
> He is the second UAV killer in the history of Pakistan.
> First was gp capt zulfiqar.
> JF17 shot down Iranian UAV inside Pak border.
> It's a good lesson for many, that UAVs could be brought down.
> It's first kill of JF17.
> FIP
> 
> View attachment 404996
> View attachment 404997
> View attachment 404998
> View attachment 404999
> View attachment 405000
> 
> 
> From Sources in Fauj



Curious markings on the downed bird. CIA operated vehicle likely.

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## messiach

I agree.


Bilal Khan 777 said:


> Curious markings on the downed bird. CIA operated vehicle likely.


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## fatman17

China aircraft development plans

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## Ahmet Pasha

White One below jf17 look like a stealth version of jf17.


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## khanasifm

What does it states below the plane in Chinese ???


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## Ahmet Pasha

Only a chinese speaker could answer that.


khanasifm said:


> What does it states below the plane in Chinese ???


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## Arsalan

Pakistan announces 5th-gen fighter and medium-altitude long-endurance UAV programs

*The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has formally announced it will commence development of a 5th-generation fighter, medium altitude long-endurance (MALE) unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) and munitions under the banner of “Project Azm” (i.e. resolve or determination).*

In his speech for inaugurating the Kamra Aviation City initiative, the PAF Chief of Air Staff (CAS) Air Chief Marshal (ACM) Sohail Aman outlined the program objectives of Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), the newly established Aviation Design Institute (AvDI) and Air University’s Aerospace and Aviation Campus.

“Our engineering and operational staff have indigenized few core capabilities which are truly high-tech … [the] initiative of Project Azam was thus encouraged, which is the designing of the 5th-generation fighter aircraft, [MALE] UAVs – which are [in the] final stages of design, development of advanced weapons – few of them already produced – and other key projects…”

Air University Aerospace and Aviation Campus Kamra is an expansion campus of Air University Islamabad, which was founded in 2002. ACM Sohail Aman stated that the campus will “provide the desired impetus for cutting-edge indigenization programs, strengthen the local industry and harness the demands of foreign aviation industry by reducing … imports and promoting joint research and production ventures.”

In its 2015-2016 yearbook, Pakistan’s Ministry of Defence Production (MoDP) states that AvDI was formed “to spearhead design and development activity … [with its] working model [hinged] on leveraging existing National Human Resource and facilities (sic).” The MoDP adds that AvDI will manage the design of “state of the art next generation (sic) aerospace vehicles.”

ACM Aman added that the Aviation City initiative will provide valuable economic opportunities for local industry entities, and in turn, support the growth and value of Pakistan’s aviation industry.

ACM Aman’s recent statements follow his earlier commitments to localizing the PAF’s supply channel – at least in terms of its 5th-generation fighter – by assigning a significant amount of the design, development and production work of the 5th-generation domestic sources.

*Notes & Comments:*

From the onset, PAC’s AvDI has been responsible for three marquee aviation programs under Project Azm: the 5th-generation fighter, a MALE UAV and munitions development. ACM Aman stated that the design work of the MALE UAV is in its “final stages”, suggesting that the UAV is a relatively near-term factor.

In February 2017, Global Industrial & Defence Solutions (GIDS) said that it was considering developing a MALE UAV, but AvDI had been tasked to undertake the program. Moreover, Pakistan did not act upon the availability of MALE UAVs in China and Turkey, such as the Wing Loong-series and Anka, respectively. This is despite the prior industry ties formed with the Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) and Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) over the CH-3-based Burraq and Anka, respectively (in 2013 TAI contracted PAC to produce parts for the Anka).

However, Pakistan opting for an original design instead of an off-the-shelf acquisition does not preclude it from seeking collaborative support from outside parties. Pakistan’s suppliers have supply opportunities at several key stages, be it the airframe, propulsion, electronic subsystems (e.g. electro-optical and infrared sensor turrets) and potentially weapons. But the PAF’s emphasis on localization implies that many of these systems will eventually be sourced domestically, though that could leave the room for co-production partnerships (which appears to interest Pakistan).

The other near-term – or rather, already active – program is advanced munitions development. The complete systems the PAF ACM mentioned likely refer to the Range Extension Kit (REK) glide-bomb, which was cleared for use from the JF-17 in March and the Ra’ad II air-launched cruise missile (ALCM).

The PAF requires munitions for current and future platforms, which provides ample opportunity for the industry, especially in the realm of air-to-air missiles (AAM) and guided air-to-ground munitions (AGM). Potential off-the-shelf purchases, such as the Denel Dynamics A-Darter AAM, could be sought from South Africa under transfer-of-technology and co-production terms. However, new munitions are also being developed domestically. In its 2015-2016 yearbook, the Pakistani MoDP listed the development of several new munitions, such as “multi warhead bombs” and “anti soft-avionics bomb.”

AvDI’s long-term endeavour is clearly the 5th-generation fighter program (FGF). In the past several years, several factors emerged which analysts thought would shape the PAF’s next-generation fighter pursuits, most notably the rise of the AVIC FC-31 Gyrfalcon. While the Shenyang Aircraft Corporation (SAC) is clearly progressing in developing the fighter, it is unclear if the PAF will pursue it. If not the FC-31, then realistically only two other alternate courses remain: the TAI TFX and an original design.

Pakistan has been billed as a prospective partner in the TFX, Turkey’s next-generation fighter effort. On repeated occasions since 2016, Turkish government and industry and Pakistan MoDP officials confirmed the link. However, the Pakistan MoDP’s statements regarding the matter had only verified Ankara’s invitation, but it was unclear if the approach was commercially oriented (akin to PAC’s work in supplying Anka parts) or in relation to possible PAF procurement.

The PAF itself did not comment on TFX, but aviation journalist Alan Warnes (who is directly in touch with the PAF) reported in May that the TFX is “likely to figure in the PAF’s new generation fighter requirement.”

While the TFX could be a factor, it is unlikely that it could be considered a truly independent and sanction-proof solution in as far as the PAF’s unique interests and realities are concerned. Fundamentally, the TFX will be a Western fighter, and while that could be an attractive option to begin supplanting the F-16s from the 2030s, British and European technology protection and costs would limit the TFX’s relevance to PAC, at least in comparison to a Chinese or original design.

The alternate scenario would be an original design. In some respects, the PAF’s messaging regarding the FGF, AvDI and the Kamra Aviation City seems to point towards an original design effort. However, unless the PAF wants to repeat the arrangement in place for the JF-17 (such as China being responsible for engine integration and testing or manufacturing JF-17 prototypes), it would need to make capital investment in aviation development infrastructure in Pakistan. Besides cost, time will also be required to build requisite human resources – e.g. engineers and technicians – to undertake the continual development work.

Although the Kamra Aviation City has ambitious goals, Pakistan will likely seek overseas support, and this would be a factor in any originally designed fighter. Given the political and economic realities, Pakistan’s principal partner in this endeavour would be China.

In fact, Pakistan realistically has no other industrial and technology source, especially with comprehensive competency in aircraft manufacturing, to partner with for the FGF other than China. Granted, the likes of Turkey, South Africa and Ukraine could provide support in specific areas (e.g. subsystems), but none of them can compensate for the support of a whole aviation powerhouse such as China. China has built the technology infrastructure and human resources base to develop two 5th-generation fighters and, with the right compensation, is broadly willing to support Pakistan’s defence development requirements.

However, acquiring Chinese support need not mean acquiring the FC-31. Pakistan could be interested in partnering with another Chinese firm such as the Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group (CAIG), with whom PAC is already partners with for the development and production of the JF-17. This bilateral familiarity can also be a factor in the PAF’s next-generation fighter plans.

The PAF could consider drawing upon CAIG’s success in the J-20, but for a lightweight and lower-cost application. In fact, a clean-sheet approach could also reflect the PAF ACM’s statements from 2016, where in regards to the FGF, he said the PAF was thinking in terms of “beyond” fifth-generation design elements. China itself could also be thinking along those lines (and paying attention to Europe’s Future Combat Air System), which could provide AVIC incentive to engage in another program.

On the other hand, Pakistan could simply concentrate on an existing and nearing program and gradually build its aviation industry infrastructure around that program. This would be a risk-averse option, but one that could happen under the pressure of financial constraints and urgent requirements.

The PAF and the Government of Pakistan are also aspiring to have Kamra Aviation City be a home to civil aviation development. Pakistan’s Minister of Planning and Development Dr. Ahsan Iqbal had expressed hope that Kamra will roll-out next-generation fighters as well as jetliners. Quwa will discuss this aspect as well as the PAF’s goal to strongly link defence, industry and academic endeavours in a subsequent article.

Visit Quwa for background on ACM Sohail Aman’s earlier statements regarding the FGF and its importance to driving indigenization and the PAF’s hope to see active electronically-scanned array radars produced in Pakistan.

*Source: Quwa*http://quwa.org/2017/07/06/pakistan-announces-5th-gen-fighter-male-uav-programs/

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## batmannow

Arsalan said:


> Pakistan announces 5th-gen fighter and medium-altitude long-endurance UAV programs
> 
> *The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has formally announced it will commence development of a 5th-generation fighter, medium altitude long-endurance (MALE) unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) and munitions under the banner of “Project Azm” (i.e. resolve or determination).*
> 
> In his speech for inaugurating the Kamra Aviation City initiative, the PAF Chief of Air Staff (CAS) Air Chief Marshal (ACM) Sohail Aman outlined the program objectives of Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), the newly established Aviation Design Institute (AvDI) and Air University’s Aerospace and Aviation Campus.
> 
> “Our engineering and operational staff have indigenized few core capabilities which are truly high-tech … [the] initiative of Project Azam was thus encouraged, which is the designing of the 5th-generation fighter aircraft, [MALE] UAVs – which are [in the] final stages of design, development of advanced weapons – few of them already produced – and other key projects…”
> 
> Air University Aerospace and Aviation Campus Kamra is an expansion campus of Air University Islamabad, which was founded in 2002. ACM Sohail Aman stated that the campus will “provide the desired impetus for cutting-edge indigenization programs, strengthen the local industry and harness the demands of foreign aviation industry by reducing … imports and promoting joint research and production ventures.”
> 
> In its 2015-2016 yearbook, Pakistan’s Ministry of Defence Production (MoDP) states that AvDI was formed “to spearhead design and development activity … [with its] working model [hinged] on leveraging existing National Human Resource and facilities (sic).” The MoDP adds that AvDI will manage the design of “state of the art next generation (sic) aerospace vehicles.”
> 
> ACM Aman added that the Aviation City initiative will provide valuable economic opportunities for local industry entities, and in turn, support the growth and value of Pakistan’s aviation industry.
> 
> ACM Aman’s recent statements follow his earlier commitments to localizing the PAF’s supply channel – at least in terms of its 5th-generation fighter – by assigning a significant amount of the design, development and production work of the 5th-generation domestic sources.
> 
> *Notes & Comments:*
> 
> From the onset, PAC’s AvDI has been responsible for three marquee aviation programs under Project Azm: the 5th-generation fighter, a MALE UAV and munitions development. ACM Aman stated that the design work of the MALE UAV is in its “final stages”, suggesting that the UAV is a relatively near-term factor.
> 
> In February 2017, Global Industrial & Defence Solutions (GIDS) said that it was considering developing a MALE UAV, but AvDI had been tasked to undertake the program. Moreover, Pakistan did not act upon the availability of MALE UAVs in China and Turkey, such as the Wing Loong-series and Anka, respectively. This is despite the prior industry ties formed with the Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) and Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) over the CH-3-based Burraq and Anka, respectively (in 2013 TAI contracted PAC to produce parts for the Anka).
> 
> However, Pakistan opting for an original design instead of an off-the-shelf acquisition does not preclude it from seeking collaborative support from outside parties. Pakistan’s suppliers have supply opportunities at several key stages, be it the airframe, propulsion, electronic subsystems (e.g. electro-optical and infrared sensor turrets) and potentially weapons. But the PAF’s emphasis on localization implies that many of these systems will eventually be sourced domestically, though that could leave the room for co-production partnerships (which appears to interest Pakistan).
> 
> The other near-term – or rather, already active – program is advanced munitions development. The complete systems the PAF ACM mentioned likely refer to the Range Extension Kit (REK) glide-bomb, which was cleared for use from the JF-17 in March and the Ra’ad II air-launched cruise missile (ALCM).
> 
> The PAF requires munitions for current and future platforms, which provides ample opportunity for the industry, especially in the realm of air-to-air missiles (AAM) and guided air-to-ground munitions (AGM). Potential off-the-shelf purchases, such as the Denel Dynamics A-Darter AAM, could be sought from South Africa under transfer-of-technology and co-production terms. However, new munitions are also being developed domestically. In its 2015-2016 yearbook, the Pakistani MoDP listed the development of several new munitions, such as “multi warhead bombs” and “anti soft-avionics bomb.”
> 
> AvDI’s long-term endeavour is clearly the 5th-generation fighter program (FGF). In the past several years, several factors emerged which analysts thought would shape the PAF’s next-generation fighter pursuits, most notably the rise of the AVIC FC-31 Gyrfalcon. While the Shenyang Aircraft Corporation (SAC) is clearly progressing in developing the fighter, it is unclear if the PAF will pursue it. If not the FC-31, then realistically only two other alternate courses remain: the TAI TFX and an original design.
> 
> Pakistan has been billed as a prospective partner in the TFX, Turkey’s next-generation fighter effort. On repeated occasions since 2016, Turkish government and industry and Pakistan MoDP officials confirmed the link. However, the Pakistan MoDP’s statements regarding the matter had only verified Ankara’s invitation, but it was unclear if the approach was commercially oriented (akin to PAC’s work in supplying Anka parts) or in relation to possible PAF procurement.
> 
> The PAF itself did not comment on TFX, but aviation journalist Alan Warnes (who is directly in touch with the PAF) reported in May that the TFX is “likely to figure in the PAF’s new generation fighter requirement.”
> 
> While the TFX could be a factor, it is unlikely that it could be considered a truly independent and sanction-proof solution in as far as the PAF’s unique interests and realities are concerned. Fundamentally, the TFX will be a Western fighter, and while that could be an attractive option to begin supplanting the F-16s from the 2030s, British and European technology protection and costs would limit the TFX’s relevance to PAC, at least in comparison to a Chinese or original design.
> 
> The alternate scenario would be an original design. In some respects, the PAF’s messaging regarding the FGF, AvDI and the Kamra Aviation City seems to point towards an original design effort. However, unless the PAF wants to repeat the arrangement in place for the JF-17 (such as China being responsible for engine integration and testing or manufacturing JF-17 prototypes), it would need to make capital investment in aviation development infrastructure in Pakistan. Besides cost, time will also be required to build requisite human resources – e.g. engineers and technicians – to undertake the continual development work.
> 
> Although the Kamra Aviation City has ambitious goals, Pakistan will likely seek overseas support, and this would be a factor in any originally designed fighter. Given the political and economic realities, Pakistan’s principal partner in this endeavour would be China.
> 
> In fact, Pakistan realistically has no other industrial and technology source, especially with comprehensive competency in aircraft manufacturing, to partner with for the FGF other than China. Granted, the likes of Turkey, South Africa and Ukraine could provide support in specific areas (e.g. subsystems), but none of them can compensate for the support of a whole aviation powerhouse such as China. China has built the technology infrastructure and human resources base to develop two 5th-generation fighters and, with the right compensation, is broadly willing to support Pakistan’s defence development requirements.
> 
> However, acquiring Chinese support need not mean acquiring the FC-31. Pakistan could be interested in partnering with another Chinese firm such as the Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group (CAIG), with whom PAC is already partners with for the development and production of the JF-17. This bilateral familiarity can also be a factor in the PAF’s next-generation fighter plans.
> 
> The PAF could consider drawing upon CAIG’s success in the J-20, but for a lightweight and lower-cost application. In fact, a clean-sheet approach could also reflect the PAF ACM’s statements from 2016, where in regards to the FGF, he said the PAF was thinking in terms of “beyond” fifth-generation design elements. China itself could also be thinking along those lines (and paying attention to Europe’s Future Combat Air System), which could provide AVIC incentive to engage in another program.
> 
> On the other hand, Pakistan could simply concentrate on an existing and nearing program and gradually build its aviation industry infrastructure around that program. This would be a risk-averse option, but one that could happen under the pressure of financial constraints and urgent requirements.
> 
> The PAF and the Government of Pakistan are also aspiring to have Kamra Aviation City be a home to civil aviation development. Pakistan’s Minister of Planning and Development Dr. Ahsan Iqbal had expressed hope that Kamra will roll-out next-generation fighters as well as jetliners. Quwa will discuss this aspect as well as the PAF’s goal to strongly link defence, industry and academic endeavours in a subsequent article.
> 
> Visit Quwa for background on ACM Sohail Aman’s earlier statements regarding the FGF and its importance to driving indigenization and the PAF’s hope to see active electronically-scanned array radars produced in Pakistan.
> 
> *Source: Quwa*


paf can share lot of info & parts , systems from Turkey but building a fighter jet I'm sure they will go to China which had 80 % of the solutions


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## Arsalan

batmannow said:


> paf can share lot of info & parts , systems from Turkey but building a fighter jet I'm sure they will go to China which had 80 % of the solutions


Lets see! 
There is just a very slight possibility (not saying that someone on Facebook told me this) that we go for something indigenous in a way that we select an air frame and then fit it with components from different suppliers (local product, Chinese, Turkish etc) to get a home developed solution. It is like going for J31 but with customized components for PAF coming from PAC and TAI. 

Only time will tell.

For now, i will focus more on JF17 post Blk-III situation. Need some Blk-IV or a totally different solution to fill in the technology gap as well as bring up the numbers to a decent force.


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## Arsalan Xipra

Assalam o alikum,

Guys, i have a test for Account Officer in PAF rwp, It will be based on Intelligence and Accounts test.

Can any one suggests me from where i should prepare it. 

Ap sb kay pas itniiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii Information hai or mjy to Ik bat b nae pta in sb Aircraft k baray me
kia ap mjy help kar skty hain test k liay 
Intelligence n accounts k liay 
Me yahan new hon mjy to smj b nae a rae k me ksy ye wbsite use karon isi liay reply me msgs kar raha



khanasifm said:


> Is that a flood retaining wall in the background ???


Assalam o alikum,

Guys, i have a test for Account Officer in PAF rwp, It will be based on Intelligence and Accounts test.

Can any one suggests me from where i should prepare it.


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## Ahmet Pasha

Have good math, current affairs, general knowledge do not lie or say anything u cannot back up with evidence. Be confident. They're probably not going to ask u anything about aircrafts or such because u r not applying for GDP.


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## fatman17

Industry

Pakistan begins construction of aerospace complex

Jon Grevatt - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

07 July 2017

Key Points
Proposed facility intended to support self-reliance in aerospace production

Complex will also produce fifth-generation fighters, says air force chief

On 6 July, the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) broke ground on a new industrial base intended to support development of the country's military and commercial aerospace capability.

The new complex – named 'Aviation City' – is being established within the state-owned Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) in Kamra in the north of the country, and is expected to be operational within the next two years. The PAC is owned and run by the PAF.

The complex is intended to house a range of aerospace academic, research, and development institutes and collaborate on major programmes with the PAC; the facility will also provide a base for a proposed Aviation Design Institute.

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## Arsalan Xipra

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Have good math, current affairs, general knowledge do not lie or say anything u cannot back up with evidence. Be confident. They're probably not going to ask u anything about aircrafts or such because u r not applying for GDP.


Assalamualikm shukar ha reply to aya 
Sir me simple bat kar ra tha Aircrafts ki vo to mjy pta ha k ye exams me nae ayga vo to me hairan tha itni infooo dek kay thanks for guide me 
Abi me Master degree k bad apply kar raha to mjy Initial test ki koe infoo nae is liay yahan msg kia kia initial test me hi math, current affairs, general knowledge ka questions poch laingy vo bs ye confusion ha
Kia ap mjy step vise guide kar skty han k ksy tiari karon me 
1 verbal 
2 Non Verbal


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## POPEYE-Sailor

Arsalan Xipra said:


> Assalamualikm shukar ha reply to aya
> Sir me simple bat kar ra tha Aircrafts ki vo to mjy pta ha k ye exams me nae ayga vo to me hairan tha itni infooo dek kay thanks for guide me
> Abi me Master degree k bad apply kar raha to mjy Initial test ki koe infoo nae is liay yahan msg kia kia initial test me hi math, current affairs, general knowledge ka questions poch laingy vo bs ye confusion ha
> Kia ap mjy step vise guide kar skty han k ksy tiari karon me
> 1 verbal
> 2 Non Verbal


 
Maintain ur Attitude..! in interview


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## CN_lang66

Good News for Pakistan JF17， AESA radar， Thruster Vector Control systems are displayed for JF-17.

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## MastanKhan

CN_lang66 said:


> Good News for Pakistan JF17， AESA radar， Thruster Vector Control systems are displayed for JF-17.




Hi,

" Thrust vector control " unbelievable and totally AWESOME---it is a wow moment---.

That is one surprise I did not expect to see.

Thank you very much for the post---.

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## HRK

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> " Thrust vector control " unbelievable and totally AWESOME---it is a wow moment---.
> 
> That is one surprise I did not expect to see.
> 
> Thank you very much for the post---.



old pics; the last pic of vector control nozzles has nothing to do with JF-17

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## salman-1

Thrust vector control with which engine? I don't think with Rd series it's available not even in Mig-35 which uses latest Rd-33mk engine. Can't see pic just 'img' coming in all three images.


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## khanasifm

CN_lang66 said:


> Good News for Pakistan JF17， AESA radar， Thruster Vector Control systems are displayed for JF-17.



What's does it states about the radar in Chinese ?


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## CN_lang66

khanasifm said:


> What's does it states about the radar in Chinese ?



Hi It says the KLJ7-A AESA radar is the much improved version of the existing KLJ7 radar for JF17. It has the capability of air-air, air-sea, air-land combat, GPS mode. Its working distance, working bandwidth, ability to target multiple targets all been improved greatly. 

Hope this helps, thanks

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## Khadim e Darul Ehsaan

We r listening the news that paf was intrested in j10s from Gen. musharaf era but that news remained just a news but now i have seen wikipedia again shows that mirrage fleet will be replaced by j10s instead of jf17 
can any one clarify whether its in procurement plan of paf or still it will be just a news ??


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## salman-1

Khadim e Darul Ehsaan said:


> We r listening the news that paf was intrested in j10s from Gen. musharaf era but that news remained just a news but now i have seen wikipedia again shows that mirrage fleet will be replaced by j10s instead of jf17
> can any one clarify whether its in procurement plan of paf or still it will be just a news ??


Updated when for this news?


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## Khadim e Darul Ehsaan

salman-1 said:


> Updated when for this news?



Sir! 
I have found it on "List of aircrafts of the Pakistan airforce" by wikipedia
 infront of mirrage 3,5 aircrafts, it is written that they will be replaced by j10s by 2025 , i couldnot post the link as i am a new member and i am restricted to do that


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## Topgun06

Hi everyone.
Can anyone tell me that if someone has minor thalassemia or if he/she is anaemic is fit for gdp or any other branch of paf or not ?
Thanks in advance.


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## fatman17

Khadim e Darul Ehsaan said:


> Sir!
> I have found it on "List of aircrafts of the Pakistan airforce" by wikipedia
> infront of mirrage 3,5 aircrafts, it is written that they will be replaced by j10s by 2025 , i couldnot post the link as i am a new member and i am restricted to do that


Fake news

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## fatman17

Super Mushshak export to Nigeria

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## fatman17

Nigeria has received the first five of ten of Super Mushshak trainers for its air force. The batch were received at the NAF’s 401 Flying Training School, Kaduna, and will take over from four trainers previously loaned by Pakistan last December so Nigeria could commence training pilots immediately. Other aircraftdestined for Nigeria from Pakistan include three JF-17 multi-role fighters, while 12 A-29 Super Tucanos are on order with Brazilian firm Embraer.

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## khanasifm

CN_lang66 said:


> Hi It says the KLJ7-A AESA radar is the much improved version of the existing KLJ7 radar for JF17. It has the capability of air-air, air-sea, air-land combat, GPS mode. Its working distance, working bandwidth, ability to target multiple targets all been improved greatly.
> 
> Hope this helps, thanks



From that statement '' improved version" one can assume at least in theory std KLj-7 v2 can be upgraded to klj7A ?? By replacing transmitter/receivers and antenna so there is an upgrade package ?? Just guessing

Version means it's not a new product but product modified form


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## khanasifm

fatman17 said:


> Nigeria has received the first five of ten of Super Mushshak trainers for its air force. The batch were received at the NAF’s 401 Flying Training School, Kaduna, and will take over from four trainers previously loaned by Pakistan last December so Nigeria could commence training pilots immediately. Other aircraftdestined for Nigeria from Pakistan include three JF-17 multi-role fighters, while 12 A-29 Super Tucanos are on order with Brazilian firm Embraer.



Statement about jf-17 is this your guess or something from a credible source


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## fatman17

khanasifm said:


> Statement about jf-17 is this your guess or something from a credible source


You can take it as you please.


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## fatman17

MiG 35 is now a must for the PAF.

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## Arsalan

fatman17 said:


> MiG 35 is now a must for the PAF.


A better and much more realistic option COMPARED to the others that are talked about like the Su-35 or the EFT (Latest model - Tranche 3) or even the F-16s now. Will give an extremely potent aircraft and fill in that gap between current 4th gen and the future 5th gen procurement (still will want the JFT to go beyond the 150 planes planned as of now)

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## CriticalThought

fatman17 said:


> MiG 35 is now a must for the PAF.



Sir, the Mig program has basically fed into FC-1/JF-17 uptil now. Do you think the new RD-33 OVT engine will find its way into some block (3,4+) at some time? I personally believe that PAF should keep evolving this line of fighters, leveraging the technological advancements on the Mig line. It is slowly becoming a cash cow, establishing its worldwide market. And just like F-16 diplomacy in the past, it will give us influence around the world, and bring us closer to the Russians as well.


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## Shabi1

fatman17 said:


> MiG 35 is now a must for the PAF.


Mig-35 is $50mil a piece, attractive option as has newer version of same engine platform as JF-17 so maintenance will be easier. However I would prefer we wait for J-31 as it too will likely share similar engine platform with JF-17 block-3 as well as Chinese origin munitions.


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## TaimiKhan

fatman17 said:


> MiG 35 is now a must for the PAF.


Sir ji, u know well we cant get it. Better to go for J10s if necessary or else best to keep eyes on the 5th Gen program and pursue it as we did for JF17s.

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## Arsalan

TaimiKhan said:


> Sir ji, u know well we cant get it. Better to go for J10s if necessary or else best to keep eyes on the 5th Gen program and pursue it as we did for JF17s.


As i was saying, a much more "probable" option compared to Su35 or EFT Tranche 3 etc!

J10 yes, but objection on that are of a different nature.

Also as said,
WILL WANT JFT to evolve and go beyond 150 planes. That is perhaps the best thing we can ask for.


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## TaimiKhan

Arsalan said:


> As i was saying, a much more "probable" option compared to Su35 or EFT Tranche 3 etc!
> 
> J10 yes, but objection on that are of a different nature.
> 
> Also as said,
> WILL WANT JFT to evolve and go beyond 150 planes. That is perhaps the best thing we can ask for.


Neither we will get Su35s or Typhoons. As said no need to waste money on these now, try to get 5th tech in 8-10 years. Dont know the objections of J10 but its heavy in nature, so if cant buy, get it on lease as stop gap measure. 

And as for JF17, it has a limit for upgrades and load which restricts its further development. Reach 250 figure with 70 F16s and if needed which may be then get j10s and look to 5th gen.

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## Arsalan

TaimiKhan said:


> Neither we will get Su35s or Typhoons. As said no need to waste money on these now, try to get 5th tech in 8-10 years. Dont know the objections of J10 but its heavy in nature, so if cant buy, get it on lease as stop gap measure.
> 
> And as for JF17, it has a limit for upgrades and load which restricts its further development. Reach 250 figure with 70 F16s and if needed which may be then get j10s and look to 5th gen.


There is that same old question then, 150 JF17, 70F16 and a fifth gen plane that WONT go above 70-72 planes MAX. This all adds up to 290 odd planes. No a comfortable number AT ALL!! That is why i think that JF17 SHOULD go beyond 150 planes, to 250! Those next 100 planes after Blk-III may even come as relatively expensive planes with structural modification and more expensive and better equipment to make it into a 4+ gen plane, HMD, AESA, better weapon systems, IRST/FLIR, More load carrying capability etc. These things will address two problems:

Numbers will go up to 380-400 planes, much decent and comfortable place to be in
The technology bridge between current 4th gen and future 5th gen will be built
This is my argument. HOWEVER, this remains personal opinion as of now. Nothing official on this matter.


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## TaimiKhan

Arsalan said:


> There is that same old question then, 150 JF17, 70F16 and a fifth gen plane that WONT go above 70-72 planes MAX. This all adds up to 290 odd planes. No a comfortable number AT ALL!! That is why i think that JF17 SHOULD go beyond 150 planes, to 250! Those next 100 planes after Blk-III may even come as relatively expensive planes with structural modification and more expensive and better equipment to make it into a 4+ gen plane, HMD, AESA, better weapon systems, IRST/FLIR, More load carrying capability etc. These things will address two problems:
> 
> Numbers will go up to 380-400 planes, much decent and comfortable place to be in
> The technology bridge between current 4th gen and future 5th gen will be built
> This is my argument. HOWEVER, this remains personal opinion as of now. Nothing official on this matter.


I also agreed with ur argument that numbers are the problem. 150 may be not enough, so either increase them or get another plane and that is where i added J10 which will be a suitable option looking at what enemy will have in future. 70 F16s cant hold 250-300 Sukhois and Rafaels.

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## khanasifm

If one assumes one on one replacement than 2x a5 sqn 7x f7p/pg sqn and 6x mirage sqn total 16 sqn needed replacement 
Last time I spoke to someone not including pg if all a5, f7 and mirage are replaced by jf than total needed was 200 plus now add pg as well a number 275-300 was mentioned, per paf latest history original contract with china was paf 150 and plaaf 100 total 250 but paf was moving ahead because they knew they will require more than 150 lastly if jf block 3 meets the requirement than no need to add additional type the only diff between j10 and jf is/ was range and load, which cannot conform but may be resolved by block 3 via cfts and we already know load has gone up as max to weight gone up

Bottom line block 3 order needs $$ not sure if confirmed plus PAC may need to cover gap between block 2 and 3 so additional block 2 in 2018 to continue production line 

Any way you never know what's cooking

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## CriticalThought

TaimiKhan said:


> I also agreed with ur argument that numbers are the problem. 150 may be not enough, so either increase them or get another plane and that is where i added J10 which will be a suitable option looking at what enemy will have in future. 70 F16s cant hold 250-300 Sukhois and Rafaels.



The Thunder shall Insha Allah pay for itself through sales if we do the marketing correctly. This is argument enough to keep following the MIG technology curve for propulsion and airframe while watering down our fifth gen technology to fit it. It would be madness to kill an established product line. With numbers and quality, it will fulfill the role of homeland defence very well, Insha Allah. The fifth gen can be used for deep strikes. No need to look at SU-35 etc. Even the EFT is becoming old technology as Europeans form a new consortium for their next gen plane.

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## Sameer25

fatman17 said:


> MiG 35 is now a must for the PAF.


can pakistan even get hands on them. back in 2016 there were rumors of pakistan getting su35s which was getting me pumped but then russia denied all sales. can pakistan even get mig 35 if it tryed


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## Readerdefence

TaimiKhan said:


> Sir ji, u know well we cant get it. Better to go for J10s if necessary or else best to keep eyes on the 5th Gen program and pursue it as we did for JF17s.


Hi what about your say on j16 if we can get a squad of j16 we will be defiantly getting its upgrades for future references through china as Chinese is making them their prime fighter jet for sea roll 
Now here the question is about the illegal copy or something but I'm sure Chinese can lure Russians into supplying them with more su35 if we can pull out this deal from Chinese 
Any more informatic input will be appreciated 
Thx


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## fatman17

TaimiKhan said:


> Sir ji, u know well we cant get it. Better to go for J10s if necessary or else best to keep eyes on the 5th Gen program and pursue it as we did for JF17s.



we are now part of SCO and things can change.



TaimiKhan said:


> I also agreed with ur argument that numbers are the problem. 150 may be not enough, so either increase them or get another plane and that is where i added J10 which will be a suitable option looking at what enemy will have in future. 70 F16s cant hold 250-300 Sukhois and Rafaels.



with Turkey now moving forward to the F35, there will be surplus upgraded F16s available in the near term.


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## Sameer25

fatman17 said:


> we are now part of SCO and things can change.
> 
> 
> 
> with Turkey now moving forward to the F35, there will be surplus upgraded F16s available in the near term.


we are almost at the point where the JF-17 is going to be Superior to the block 50. instead of buying new F-16s we should focus on the jf-17 and make it better


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## fatman17

Sameer25 said:


> we are almost at the point where the JF-17 is going to be Superior to the block 50. instead of buying new F-16s we should focus on the jf-17 and make it better



true but we need to make up some numbers and nothing better than getting a few sqdns of vipers from Turkey.

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## Sameer25

fatman17 said:


> true but we need to make up some numbers and nothing better than getting a few sqdns of vipers from Turkey.


turkey is an amazing ally and hopeful they sell it to us for a good price

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## Avicenna

I anticipate some ex-Turkish and ex-Egyptian F-16s at some point in the mid to distant future. At least I hope so.


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## Advocate Pakistan

fatman17 said:


> true but we need to make up some numbers and nothing better than getting a few sqdns of vipers from Turkey.



Won't we be requiring U.S. permission to acquire the viper from Turkey even???


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## Avicenna

I'm pretty sure the transfer needs US approval.


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## fatman17

Air-Launched Weapons

New BVRAAM may have entered PLAAF service

Andrew Tate and Neil Gibson - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

18 July 2017

A PLAAF CAC J-10C combat aircraft armed with PL-10 short-range AAMs (outer underwing pylons) and what appear to be new BVRAAMs (mid-underwing pylons). Source: Via Chinese internet

Images have emerged on Chinese online military forums showing a People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation (CAC) J-10C combat aircraft armed with what appears to be a new beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM).

The fighter was photographed carrying two PL-10 short-range AAMs on its outer underwing pylons and two of the new missiles on its mid-underwing pylons.

Although nomenclature is uncertain as no official information is forthcoming, it is likely that the new missile is the one being referred to unofficially as the PL-15, with its appearance on the underwing pylons of a J-10C possibly reflecting that it is now in service.

The missile is estimated to be around 3.7 m long, with a diameter of 200 mm. It is fitted with low aspect ratio aerodynamic stabilising surfaces (trapezoidal wings) on its mid-section and at the moveable control surfaces (clipped delta fins) at its tail.

The respective surface spans approximately 390 mm and 515 mm. There is no visible evidence of a thrust vectoring control (TVC) system present at the rear of the new missile, as can clearly be seen on the PL-10, so control appears to be aerodynamic only. Additionally, there are no air intakes that would be necessary if propulsion was provided by a ramjet, so it can be assumed that a standard form rocket motor is being used.

Photographs of a similar missile carried by a Shenyang Aircraft Corporation J-16 emerged in 2012, which is thought to be undergoing development trials. Like the recent sighting, the missile’s aerodynamic surfaces are the same low aspect ratio planform, which facilitates loading in the internal weapons bay of the CAC J-20 'fifth-generation' fighter.


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## fatman17

MAKS 2017
International Aviation and Space Show
18 - 23 July 2017, Zhukovsky, Russia








MAKS 2017: New MiG-35 fighter jet approved for export market

The advanced Russian-made Mikoyan MiG-35 multirole fighter jet has received an export certificate, Head of Russia’s Federal Service for Military and Technical Cooperation Dmitry Shugayev said during MAKS 2017 airshow.

The new MiG-35 multirole fighter jet at MAKS 2017

"The MiG-35 is a 4++ generation plane. It is equipped with powerful weapons and advanced onboard equipment. It has aroused extreme envy in our rivals," Shugayev said at the MAKS 2017 international airshow.

"We will actively promote the plane. Its export certificate and relevant documents are ready," he added.

According to him, Russia’s Rosoboronexport state arms seller is cooperating with the United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) and the MiG Corporation to promote the fighter jet on the market.

It was reported earlier that the plane would be shown to the public for the first time at the MAKS 2017 airshow. 

It performed its first flight in early 2017.


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## fatman17

PAF delegate in Qatar

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## CriticalThought

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 412693
> View attachment 412694
> View attachment 412695
> 
> PAF delegate in Qatar



Sir, is that Thunder's cockpit and simulator?


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## TaimiKhan

CriticalThought said:


> Sir, is that Thunder's cockpit and simulator?


Nops, qatari training establishment. Thus their stuff.

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## Talon

CriticalThought said:


> Sir, is that Thunder's cockpit and simulator?





fatman17 said:


> View attachment 412693
> View attachment 412694
> View attachment 412695
> 
> PAF delegate in Qatar





TaimiKhan said:


> Nops, qatari training establishment. Thus their stuff.



This is a PC-21 cockpit (simulator)..see here:





And according to this news source PAF has delivered Mushak trainer to QAF:

http://alkhaleejonline.net/articles/1500467313031040400/بالصور-وصول-أول-دفعة-طائرات-تدريبية-باكستانية-إلى-قطر/

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## Lord Of Gondor

There is a nice report on PAF COIN operations in Air Forces Monthly August Issue.
Do check it out, guys.

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## fatman17

CriticalThought said:


> Sir, is that Thunder's cockpit and simulator?


Someone said it was PC21 sim


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## khanasifm

So Qatar, Nigeria initial delivery made, was Iraq order cancelled or delayed ? Turkish is big order so perhaps in few years out


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## fatman17

Military Capabilities

Qatar receives first Super Mushshak trainers

Jeremy Binnie - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

20 July 2017

The Qatari Ministry of Defence announced on 19 July that it had received its first batch of Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) Super Mushshak basic training aircraft. They will be used by the Qatari Emiri Air Force’s Al-Zaeem Air Academy.


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## fatman17

khanasifm said:


> So Qatar, Nigeria initial delivery made, was Iraq order cancelled or delayed ? Turkish is big order so perhaps in few years out


Iraqi order cancelled on US pressure.


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## CriticalThought

In his interview March 2017, ACM Sohail Aman hinted at PAF looking at a 5th gen platform as a stop gap until an indigenous 5+ gen aircraft can be developed. Here, a retired senior PAF official confirms it will be J-20 'one way or the other'.


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## khanasifm

CriticalThought said:


> In his interview March 2017, ACM Sohail Aman hinted at PAF looking at a 5th gen platform as a stop gap until an indigenous 5+ gen aircraft can be developed. Here, a retired senior PAF official confirms it will be J-20 'one way or the other'.



[emoji848] link ?? Not working or video not available


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## SQ8

CriticalThought said:


> In his interview March 2017, ACM Sohail Aman hinted at PAF looking at a 5th gen platform as a stop gap until an indigenous 5+ gen aircraft can be developed. Here, a retired senior PAF official confirms it will be J-20 'one way or the other'.


I believe that is a misinterpretation; the one way or the other is a 5th gen platform, not the J-20

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## Bossman

khanasifm said:


> So Qatar, Nigeria initial delivery made, was Iraq order cancelled or delayed ? Turkish is big order so perhaps in few years out


Parts for the Turkish order are being procured and assembly will start soon.

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## fatman17

Shenyang J-16 Silent Flanker Chinese Intermediate Stealth Fighter

Posted by: Larkins Dsouza February 27, 20128 






China is developing a heavily modified variant of the J-11B code named J-16 Silent Flanker. It features stealth design like internal weapons bays, stealth-optimized engine intakes, and canted vertical fins. It’s the race of the stealth fighters, the United States, Russia, India, Japan, India, China everyone seems to want to have a bite at it. China is trying hard to modernize and fill in their need for fourth generation fighters, meanwhile working very hard every way possible to develop it’s Fifth generation fighter capability. One such attempt is with a heavily modified and reversed engineered Sukhoi Su-27 code named Flanker by the NATO.

It seems like the Chinese have found a very much liking towards Su-27 or it seems to be a very effective platform for modification and development. Shenyang managed to convert a fourth generation Su-27 (modified into J-11B) into a fifth generation stealth fighter called Shenyang J-16 code named Silent Flanker. This isn’t the first time a fourth generation fighter was developed into a fifth generation stealth, Boeing managed to develop a F-15 Eagle into F-15 Silent Eagle, marketed to countries like Saudi Arabia and South Korea who are far from Fifth Generation fighters capabilities. So this claim of development by the Chinese seems to be very authentic.

Unveiled in 2002, the Shenyang J-11B is a very advanced, multi-role attack fighter with Chinese-made avionics and some degree of reduced radar cross section (stealth) – ideal for trying out new ideas about increased stealth. Since 2006, it has been a testbed for the Chinese FWS-10A ‘TaiHang’ turbofan engine. The FWS-10A is similar to the Russian AL-31F, and is a candidate for next generation stealth aircraft propulsion.

Chinese are already developingChengdu J-20 a purported fifth-generation, stealth, twin-engine fighter aircraft prototype developed by Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group for the Chinese People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF). In late 2010, the J-20 underwent high speed taxiing tests. The J-20 made its first flight on 11 January 2011. General He Weirong, Deputy Commander of the People’s Liberation Army Air Force said in November 2009 that he expected the J-20 to be operational in 2017–2019. For now the Chinese interests are very regional, but development of the aircraft such as Shenyang J-16 and Chengdu J-20 makes one believe that China can change it’s doctrine any time soon.

While J-20 is still in development stage, China desperately needs to fill in the gap for stealth fighter because United States already have actively deployed stealth fighters, the rapid joint development by Russia and India onSukhoi PAKFA is also no comfort. Neither can they buy Su-PAKFA because India would have the right to veto any sales to China by Russia. So, J-16 looks more of a intermediate stealth fighter developed to fill in that gap and increase the morale of over all Chinese force.

With the kind of economic boom China is enjoying and the current budget China can afford to experiment multiple 5th generation designs and finally choose the best one. The strategy used by USA and Russia were doing in the past and that is the right way to go. But the problem is that Shenyang Aircraft Corporation is unable to give any tough competition to Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group till now they have to come up with something new to challenge Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group this will bring out the best from Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group and will also allow aviation industry to expand. Hope j-16 becomes a success story and a source of confidence for Shenyang Aircraft Corporation.

There is no reason why the Chinese should not be aggressively developing stealth military aircraft. With over $2 trillion they can ride out the global recession in much better shape than the United States, research and development can easily be financed. If China can approach parity with the USA in numbers and quality of stealth aircraft, nuclear carrier battle groups and nuclear attack submarines, they cam become a ‘superpower’ via projection of their foreign policy and military strength. Billions of dollars spent on the F-35 program. Money spent on stealth aircraft in the United States further weaken the overall economy of the crumbling super power. In that alone, China’s ‘stealth aircraft program’ will have accomplished a great deal. Creating more affordable stealth fighters and emphasis on quantity over quality could be a positive for the race towards being a super power.

In 2005, a former Northrup B2 design engineer was arrested for selling highly classified data about the B-2 and its stealth design to China. Noshir Gowadia has admitted to the charges and so there is no question that the propulsion system and stealth design features of the B-2 have been studied intensively by those designing fighters and bombers for China’s People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF).

In April 2009, China cyberwar experts attacked the US Department of Defense computers that hold classified data about the F-35 program. Apparently a great deal of data was downloaded, although theft of information in the highest security classification was not acknowledged. This could also give us some insight where J-16 would stand in terms of mission roles and technology.

To understand J-16 we need to understand J-11B, there aren’t many pictures of J-16 released to help us. Following is the specifications of J-11B

– Crew: 1
– Length: 21.9M
– Wingspan: 14.70 M
– Height: 5.92M
– Wing area: 62.04 m²
– Empty weight: 16,380 kg
– Loaded weight: 23,926 kg
– Range: 3,530 km
– Powerplant: 2 × Lyulka AL-31F or Woshan WS-10A “Taihang” turbofans

And these will have to change in J-16 platform since there will be modification to make it stealth like all the weapons will be internal. This results in decrease in the number of weapons that can be carried, fuel capacity decreases hence range decreases. Su-27 appears like a pizza on a RADAR because of it’s huge size so the size would also have to be reduced. The main concern would be the engines, they have to be designed such a way as to evade incoming heat-seaking missiles. But the Chinese probably would solve this problem easily, thanks to Noshir Gowadia who soled the designs of B-2 Spirit bomber. It would be crucial to develop these indigenous engines, mainly to be used in J-20 in the future.


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## Readerdefence

Recent photos showed both J16 &J 10C carrying the newest PL15 AAM. 4x PL15 will be envisaged to be carried by J20 in the weapon bay. Courtesy Davidau sino defence
Thx


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## khanasifm

Unless any new capability added like 2 way datalink, pl15 may be just sd10 with cropped fins to reduce width for internal weapon bay usage like aim120 went through

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## Incog_nito

CriticalThought said:


> In his interview March 2017, ACM Sohail Aman hinted at PAF looking at a 5th gen platform as a stop gap until an indigenous 5+ gen aircraft can be developed. Here, a retired senior PAF official confirms it will be J-20 'one way or the other'.


I think J-31 is a better option with Avionics of J-20. It has similarity with JF-17s too.


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## CriticalThought

Oxair Online said:


> I think J-31 is a better option with Avionics of J-20. It has similarity with JF-17s too.



One important part of stealth is heat management. The engine has to be made grounds up to distribute excessive heat to keep the IR signature at a minimum, while not hurting the performance too much. Why do you think the Chinese are still researching J-20? The J-31 is indeed the poor man's stealth fighter.

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## fatman17

Mi17i delivered to Balochistan Govt.

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## fatman17



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## CriticalThought

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 413381



Legacy of technical excellence, future of innovative research. PAF - Ruling the skies.

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## Readerdefence

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 413378
> 
> Mi17i delivered to Balochistan Govt.


Hi are they still running with the same paint scheme as the flag on the tail is I think Russian 
Thx


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## fatman17

Readerdefence said:


> Hi are they still running with the same paint scheme as the flag on the tail is I think Russian
> Thx


Balochistan will have its own livery. Pic is generic

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## fatman17

PAC KAMRA Order Book. 
8 Super Mushshak for Qatar Air Force. delivery started. 
10 Super Mushshak for Nigeria Air Force. Delivery started. 
52 Super Mushshak for Turkish Air Force. Delivery by 2018 -19. 
3 JF17 for Nigeria Air Force. Delivery by end 2017. Option for additional 7 JF17. 
16 JF17 for Myanmar Air Force. Delivery by end 2018. Simultaneously work at PAC and Chengdu.

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## khanasifm

fatman17 said:


> PAC KAMRA Order Book.
> 8 Super Mushshak for Qatar Air Force. delivery started.
> 10 Super Mushshak for Nigeria Air Force. Delivery started.
> 52 Super Mushshak for Turkish Air Force. Delivery by 2018 -19.
> 3 JF17 for Nigeria Air Force. Delivery by end 2017. Option for additional 7 JF17.
> 16 JF17 for Myanmar Air Force. Delivery by end 2018. Simultaneously work at PAC and Chengdu.



What is the source of this info?


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## fatman17

khanasifm said:


> What is the source of this info?


Me

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## fatman17

Russian Design, Chinese Clone, French avionics, American weapons, Pakistani air craft. 
PAF F6, true Hybrid bird

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## fatman17

Graduation ceremony of Combat Commanders’ Course held at Airpower Centre of Excellence (ACE)

Graduation ceremony of Combat Commanders’ Course held at Airpower Centre of Excellence (ACE)

Chief of the Air Staff Trophy for the best Combat Commander was awarded to Squadron Leader Ali Khan.


July 24, 2017	

ISLAMABAD: “Discipline of imparting quality operational training at Combat Commanders School has always been its hallmark and it is extremely vital for the overall war preparedness of Pakistan Air Force”, said Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman while addressing the Graduation Ceremony of 48th Combat Commanders’ Course held at Airpower Centre of Excellence (ACE), Sargodha on Monday.

Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force was the Chief Guest at the occasion. The Air Chief further said that Combat Commander School plays the most pivotal role in operational training of our combat crew. He urged upon the graduates that its their responsibility to pass on to the young officers whatever they have learnt at this prestigious institution.

While highlighting the importance of indigenisation in PAF, the Air Chief further said that the Air Power Center of Excellence (ACE) would soon become an icon and play a key role in various indigenisation projects of PAF. The chief guest also awarded certificates and trophies to the graduating officers who underwent a strenuous and professionally demanding course.

The Chief of the Air Staff Trophy for the best Combat Commander was awarded to Squadron Leader Ali Khan while Air Officer Commanding Air Defence Command Trophy for best Combat Controller was awarded to Squadron Leader Muhammad Suleman. The ceremony was attended by principal staff officers and field commanders of Pakistan Air Force.

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## CriticalThought

fatman17 said:


> Graduation ceremony of Combat Commanders’ Course held at Airpower Centre of Excellence (ACE)
> 
> Graduation ceremony of Combat Commanders’ Course held at Airpower Centre of Excellence (ACE)
> 
> Chief of the Air Staff Trophy for the best Combat Commander was awarded to Squadron Leader Ali Khan.
> 
> 
> July 24, 2017
> 
> ISLAMABAD: “Discipline of imparting quality operational training at Combat Commanders School has always been its hallmark and it is extremely vital for the overall war preparedness of Pakistan Air Force”, said Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman while addressing the Graduation Ceremony of 48th Combat Commanders’ Course held at Airpower Centre of Excellence (ACE), Sargodha on Monday.
> 
> Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force was the Chief Guest at the occasion. The Air Chief further said that Combat Commander School plays the most pivotal role in operational training of our combat crew. He urged upon the graduates that its their responsibility to pass on to the young officers whatever they have learnt at this prestigious institution.
> 
> While highlighting the importance of indigenisation in PAF, the Air Chief further said that the Air Power Center of Excellence (ACE) would soon become an icon and play a key role in various indigenisation projects of PAF. The chief guest also awarded certificates and trophies to the graduating officers who underwent a strenuous and professionally demanding course.
> 
> The Chief of the Air Staff Trophy for the best Combat Commander was awarded to Squadron Leader Ali Khan while Air Officer Commanding Air Defence Command Trophy for best Combat Controller was awarded to Squadron Leader Muhammad Suleman. The ceremony was attended by principal staff officers and field commanders of Pakistan Air Force.



@The Accountant read the following excerpt from the post above



> While highlighting the importance of indigenisation in PAF, the Air Chief further said that the Air Power Center of Excellence (ACE) would soon become an icon and play a key role in various indigenisation projects of PAF.



The Combat Commanders have a war fighting strategy. This strategy will feed into requirements for platforms and capabilities, which will in turn lead to creating roadmap items for AvDI. This is the future of PAF, completely in contrast with the Indian Airforce that is engaging in a completely blind, haphazard buying spree that defies all logic.

May Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'aala grant wisdom and foresight to our PAF servicemen, and may their efforts be a cause of strength and power for Islam and Muslims the world over. Aaameen.

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## fatman17

Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) has delivered its first batch of Super Mushshak trainer aircraft to the Qatari Emiri Air Force (QEAF). Eight aircraft were ordered last June and are expected to serve as a primer and/or screener trainer for trainee Qatari pilots at its al-Zaeem Air Academy prior to moving onto the Pilatus PC-21 trainer. Further procurements expected to be delivered to Qatar include 24 Dassault Rafales and 36 Boeing F-15QA, and it is possible that PAC may be providing its JF-17 fighter following a demonstration of the aircraft by the Pakistan Air Force during a visit to Qatar last year.

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## khanasifm

fatman17 said:


> Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) has delivered its first batch of Super Mushshak trainer aircraft to the Qatari Emiri Air Force (QEAF). Eight aircraft were ordered last June and are expected to serve as a primer and/or screener trainer for trainee Qatari pilots at its al-Zaeem Air Academy prior to moving onto the Pilatus PC-21 trainer. Further procurements expected to be delivered to Qatar include 24 Dassault Rafales and 36 Boeing F-15QA, and it is possible that PAC may be providing its JF-17 fighter following a demonstration of the aircraft by the Pakistan Air Force during a visit to Qatar last year.


Is this statement from pac??? Part of the news item ??? Ot your general statement ?


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## araz

fatman17 said:


> Me


Good enough for me Sir!!
A

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## fatman17

khanasifm said:


> Is this statement from pac??? Part of the news item ??? Ot your general statement ?


You can take it as you like, however it's from DID Web site.


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## Tipu7

fatman17 said:


> Russian Design, Chinese Clone, French avionics, American weapons, Pakistani air craft.
> PAF F6, true Hybrid bird
> View attachment 413852


This was my tweet .......

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## Readerdefence

Pl 15 specifications 
http://chinese-military-aviation.blogspot.fr/p/missiles-iii.html
Thx

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## fatman17

Good Times for the Super Mushshak

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## Khadim e Darul Ehsaan

Is its true that soloturks r comming to Pakistan and perform on 14 August over Islamabad ??? 
I hve read in one of the fb group


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## fatman17

Azerbaijan to buy 10 Super Mushshak planes from Pakistan

APPUpdated July 31, 2017

Air Marshal Arshad Malik, chairman of the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, Kamra, presents a sale contract for Super Mushshak aircraft to Azerbaijan Air Force Commander Lt Gen Ramiz Tahirov.—INP

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan signed an agreement with Azerbaijan for sale of 10 Super Mushshak aircraft to Azerbaijan Air Force.

The contract was signed in Azerbaijan by Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, Kamra, Chairman Air Marshal Arshad Malik and Azerbaijan Air Force Commander Lt Gen Ramiz Tahirov, says a press release issued here on Sunday.

The agreement includes operational training and technical support and assistance to Azerbaijan Air Force.

The accord will strengthen relations between the two countries.

Super Mushshak is equipped with the most modern equipment and capabilities which makes it one of the best military trainer aircraft.

Approximately 300 Super Mushshak aircraft are being used by the PAF and Pakistan Army for military training of pilots and other defence-related activities.

Pakistan recently signed agreements to sell Super Mushshak aircraft to Turkey, Nigeria and Qatar.

The aircraft are already in service in Saudi Arabia, Oman, Iran and South Africa.

Published in Dawn, July 31st, 2017


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## Talon

Khadim e Darul Ehsaan said:


> Is its true that soloturks r comming to Pakistan and perform on 14 August over Islamabad ???
> I hve read in one of the fb group


yes they are...I checked their schedule and also confirmed from a PAF source.


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## fatman17

Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) has added a further 10 Super Mushshak aircraft to its order books after signing contracts to deliver the trainers to Azerbaijan. This is the second, albeit smaller, order for the trainer in 2017 following Turkey’s 52 plane order in May. PAC are also looking to sell its JF-17 fighter to Baku, who may look to replace their ageing fleet of Su-25 and MiG-21 aircraft.


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## Ahmet Pasha

So whats the total number of mushaks solds in totla to all countries???


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## fatman17

Ahmet Pasha said:


> So whats the total number of mushaks solds in totla to all countries???


Quite a few. Nearing or passing 100 +

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## fatman17



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## fatman17

Pakistan to dispatch 19 fighter aircraft to China for joint air force exercise defense attached @zlj517 @ck04f1John https://t.co/U8CKV9T3Y1

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## Syed Asif Bukhari

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 415399


its very hard to believe since even a Major's son is given preference over civilian and here we are talking about CAS .

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## TaimiKhan

Syed Asif Bukhari said:


> its very hard to believe since even a Major's son is given preference over civilian and here we are talking about CAS .


A very untrue observation. In my issb test, son of corps cmndr and a maj gen were present, in total 6 from army back ground me included, and only 1 got selected. Both sons of lt gen and maj gen were left out. This is not true. We r 4 bros, all tried, just 1 got in.

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## Raider 21

Syed Asif Bukhari said:


> its very hard to believe since even a Major's son is given preference over civilian and here we are talking about CAS .


Not necessarily. My grandfather was a Brigadier and only 1 son out of 4 children passed ISSB and he got selected to fly for PAF.


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## IHK_PK

Knuckles said:


> Not necessarily. My grandfather was a Brigadier and only 1 son out of 4 children passed ISSB and he got selected to fly for PAF.


Then rest of the 3 are supposed to b quite "nehla's. [emoji4]


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## Raider 21

IHK_PK said:


> Then rest of the 3 are supposed to b quite "nehla's. [emoji4]


Hilarious.

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## Zarvan

Syed Asif Bukhari said:


> its very hard to believe since even a Major's son is given preference over civilian and here we are talking about CAS .


A big fat lie nothing else I know Lt Generals whose all sons got rejected and I know a guy whose majority of songs got rejected only one got selected. But as you are in Army and those fathers who really want to see there child in Army often train them well from childhood and also in academics focus on things which can help them pass tests. But this is big crap that there is any sifarish


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## fatman17

Not everyone gets in. Lots of false narrative that sons of senior officers get automatic nod.


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## Army research

Army officers sons have a higher chance of getting in as they are groomed from birth to behave in an officers way, those who fail like sohails son don't pass


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## fatman17




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## fatman17



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## Windjammer



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## fatman17

Intl orders for Super Mushshak have totaled 144 since 2016 making it one of the most successful A/C projects of Asia-https://t.co/uQ4S7LWCm7 https://t.co/KQaNMsg2of

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## syed_yusuf

Windjammer said:


>



is this a new news item?


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## fatman17

syed_yusuf said:


> is this a new news item?


Not reported in detail by local press


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## fatman17

US Denies Transfer of Critical Technology and F-16 Fighter Production in India
https://t.co/ClmF8pXUgV https://t.co/hsoRE96dHZ

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## Talon

Fighters over Lahore today.
Callsign Python of 1 package (2 flights minimum) F-16s probably

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## Ahmet Pasha

Why? Because of India?


Hodor said:


> Fighters over Lahore today.
> Callsign Python of 1 package (2 flights minimum) F-16s probably


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## Readerdefence

Courtesy hyperwarp SDF

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## Talon

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Why? Because of India?


Nah..i dont think so,the flight was atleast of 8 aircrafts cuz the pilot i heard on ATC was Python 2-3 and he was intercepting someone(cant remember which callsign) so probably some friendly sortie.I'll get the details when I'll meet any of my source as such stuff isnt shared on texts and social media.


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## Ahmet Pasha

Man you sound like a professional airman.
Could u plz explain to me the science of callsigns how they work and why are they needed in the first place.
I have been dying to learn about this.


Hodor said:


> Nah..i dont think so,the flight was atleast of 8 aircrafts cuz the pilot i heard on ATC was Python 2-3 and he was intercepting someone(cant remember which callsign) so probably some friendly sortie.I'll get the details when I'll meet any of my source as such stuff isnt shared on texts and social media.


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## Talon

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Man you sound like a professional airman.
> Could u plz explain to me the science of callsigns how they work and why are they needed in the first place.
> I have been dying to learn about this.


Callsigns are used to identify aircrafts and avoid problems as multiple are operating in an airspace.
In the given case,Python 2-3 means the object plane was number 3 of Flight number 2 of the Package(consisting of more than 1 flights where 1 flight consists of 4 aircrafts).Hope u got that
P.s I inquired about this flight and you made right guess about it yesterday (just got updated)

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## Ahmet Pasha

So callsigns are assigned at random???



Hodor said:


> Callsigns are used to identify aircrafts and avoid problems as multiple are operating in an airspace.
> In the given case,Python 2-3 means the object plane was number 3 of Flight number 2 of the Package(consisting of more than 1 flights where 1 flight consists of 4 aircrafts).Hope u got that
> P.s I inquired about this flight and you made right guess about it yesterday (just got updated)


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## Khadim e Darul Ehsaan

Hodor said:


> Callsigns are used to identify aircrafts and avoid problems as multiple are operating in an airspace.
> In the given case,Python 2-3 means the object plane was number 3 of Flight number 2 of the Package(consisting of more than 1 flights where 1 flight consists of 4 aircrafts).Hope u got that
> P.s I inquired about this flight and you made right guess about it yesterday (just got updated)



"I inquired about this flight and you made right guess about it yesterday" Sir! does this implies that aircrafts were really flying because of india mean it was not a training mission but a precautionary measure ?


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## SQ8

Hodor said:


> Nah..i dont think so,the flight was atleast of 8 aircrafts cuz the pilot i heard on ATC was Python 2-3 and he was intercepting someone(cant remember which callsign) so probably some friendly sortie.I'll get the details when I'll meet any of my source as such stuff isnt shared on texts and social media.


Technical violations- at least a 100 of them over a year and depending upon state of relations; we scramble.

The thankful bit is that compared to yr 2000, we are much more capable of actually stopping something real in its tracks. Otherwise it was the 30 odd serviceable F-16s and the rest were Allah hi reham kare.

Well
That would be an exaggeration with the Rose mirages.

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## MastanKhan

TaimiKhan said:


> A very untrue observation. In my issb test, son of corps cmndr and a maj gen were present, in total 6 from army back ground me included, and only 1 got selected. Both sons of lt gen and maj gen were left out. This is not true. We r 4 bros, all tried, just 1 got in.



Hi,

I think that is more for the sake of drama than any real thing behind it---.

My father was a doctor---many uncles were doctors---all the discussion in the house was of medicine---surgery---sickness and treatment---. I knew more than fresh MBBS doctors about general medicine when I completed my 12th grade.

At that time there were 5 reserved seats in each medical college for docotrs sons or daughters---. I would have been a wonderful doctor---I blundered.

Tactically---sons of military personal are more dedicated and professional---so this drama of not being selected is fraudulent by the issb---. They gain nothing by rejecting an officers son or daughter.

In UK---USA---it is a tradition of sons going into the military---and many have generations of proven service---.

I can guarantee that the son of a general grade officer or an officer otherwise---would be a better officer and would have a better command and knowledge of affairs being born in the generals household most of the time if groomed properly right from the gitgo.

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## fatman17



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## fatman17

PAF C-130 Taking Part in Exercise Mobility Guardian in USA

Quote Post Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:42 am

Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Lockheed C-130E Hercules serial number 4159 photographed at McChord Air Force Base, Lakewood, Washington, USA, on August 2, 2017.

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## Talon

Oscar said:


> Technical violations- at least a 100 of them over a year and depending upon state of relations; we scramble.
> 
> The thankful bit is that compared to yr 2000, we are much more capable of actually stopping something real in its tracks. Otherwise it was the 30 odd serviceable F-16s and the rest were Allah hi reham kare.
> 
> Well
> That would be an exaggeration with the Rose mirages.


Yeah but this one was over Lahore which u know,is a critical place.



Khadim e Darul Ehsaan said:


> "I inquired about this flight and you made right guess about it yesterday" Sir! does this implies that aircrafts were really flying because of india mean it was not a training mission but a precautionary measure ?


PAF doesnt trains over lahore unless its some major exercise(mostly highmark),so yeah issues from eastern border.

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## Talon

Ahmet Pasha said:


> So callsigns are assigned at random???


Depends on mission type mostly.Pilots too have their own callsigns or nicknames like uqab,buster,hamza,viper etc and these are permanent.

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## SQ8

Hodor said:


> Yeah but this one was over Lahore which u know,is a critical place.
> 
> 
> PAF doesnt trains over lahore unless its some major exercise(mostly highmark),so yeah issues from eastern border.


To an extent I guess Lahore could be classified critical. Although these guys on the east are less into actual wartime targets from the eastern front and more focused on cherry point scoring against what they classify as terror targets. 

What they don't realize is that all these "limited" air actions suit the PAF better than them, we maintain parity in those scenarios.

Even with limited capabilities such as those ten years ago, their cock-a-snoot flight after 26/11 was intercepted and trailed all the way across the border, near Kharian and back out from what I heard whilst our dear khappay was sweating his head about on what to do.

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## CriticalThought

Oscar said:


> To an extent I guess Lahore could be classified critical. Although these guys on the east are less into actual wartime targets from the eastern front and more focused on cherry point scoring against what they classify as terror targets.
> 
> What they don't realize is that all these "limited" air actions suit the PAF better than them, we maintain parity in those scenarios.
> 
> Even with limited capabilities such as those ten years ago, their cock-a-snoot flight after 26/11 was intercepted and trailed all the way across the border, near Kharian and back out from what I heard whilst our dear khappay was sweating his head about on what to do.



This is exactly what happens when delusional politicians, stoked from their newly inked multi-billion dollar deal of French aircraft, consider themselves already invincible and order surgical strikes. The poor democracy loving airmen and soldiers have no option but to comply but putting on a sham.

@Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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## Avicenna

It's really nice to see the J-20s in recent clips and pics on the web. Re-assuring that the Chinese are comfortable enough to have these media made public. It most likely means they are working on updates and that these current platforms are NOT the cutting edge of what China has. 

As it relates to the PAF, maybe a J-10C wouldn't be so bad? Obviously, I'm not aware of the quality and ultimately the effectivness, of these Chinese systems; and would say they are historically inferior to Western hardware. But its 2017, and perhaps that is no longer the case? 

From the Russian and Chinese options: J-10B/C, Mig-35, Su-30SME, Su-35.

The J-10 B/C seems to be the most logisitically favorable one. Maybe its time to commit?

http://www.eastpendulum.com/ce-que-pensent-les-pilotes-de-leur-j-20

Just wanted to add this link. Interesting read.

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## Hassan Guy

Avicenna said:


> It's really nice to see the J-20s in recent clips and pics on the web. Re-assuring that the Chinese are comfortable enough to have these media made public. It most likely means they are working on updates and that these current platforms are NOT the cutting edge of what China has.
> 
> As it relates to the PAF, maybe a J-10C wouldn't be so bad? Obviously, I'm not aware of the quality and ultimately the effectivness, of these Chinese systems; and would say they are historically inferior to Western hardware. But its 2017, and perhaps that is no longer the case?
> 
> From the Russian and Chinese options: J-10B/C, Mig-35, Su-30SME, Su-35.
> 
> The J-10 B/C seems to be the most logisitically favorable one. Maybe its time to commit?


Paf already has 2 types of 4th gen single engine fighters

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## MastanKhan

Hodor said:


> Yeah but this one was over Lahore which u know,is a critical place.
> 
> 
> PAF doesnt trains over lahore unless its some major exercise(mostly highmark),so yeah issues from eastern border.



Hi,

The enemy just wanted to check out the response time---the numberof respondents---and the type of aircraft.

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## Talon

Oscar said:


> To an extent I guess Lahore could be classified critical. Although these guys on the east are less into actual wartime targets from the eastern front and more focused on cherry point scoring against what they classify as terror targets.
> 
> What they don't realize is that all these "limited" air actions suit the PAF better than them, we maintain parity in those scenarios.
> 
> Even with limited capabilities such as those ten years ago, their cock-a-snoot flight after 26/11 was intercepted and trailed all the way across the border, near Kharian and back out from what I heard whilst our dear khappay was sweating his head about on what to do.


Completely agreed...though i was told lahore falls under "very critical" category.
With ADAs active,nothing to worry about.



Avicenna said:


> It's really nice to see the J-20s in recent clips and pics on the web. Re-assuring that the Chinese are comfortable enough to have these media made public. It most likely means they are working on updates and that these current platforms are NOT the cutting edge of what China has.
> 
> As it relates to the PAF, maybe a J-10C wouldn't be so bad? Obviously, I'm not aware of the quality and ultimately the effectivness, of these Chinese systems; and would say they are historically inferior to Western hardware. But its 2017, and perhaps that is no longer the case?
> 
> From the Russian and Chinese options: J-10B/C, Mig-35, Su-30SME, Su-35.
> 
> The J-10 B/C seems to be the most logisitically favorable one. Maybe its time to commit?
> 
> http://www.eastpendulum.com/ce-que-pensent-les-pilotes-de-leur-j-20
> 
> Just wanted to add this link. Interesting read.


J10 option long gone,Su30 not possible the same way India wont get F16s and su35 operating costs are too heavy for PAF.

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## Avicenna

Hodor said:


> Completely agreed...though i was told lahore falls under "very critical" category.
> With ADAs active,nothing to worry about.
> 
> 
> J10 option long gone,Su30 not possible the same way India wont get F16s and su35 operating costs are too heavy for PAF.



So what then for the stated 4.5 gen requirement?

Even if a country has 5th gen aircraft, your gonna need a sizable 4 and 4+ gen fleet to do the majority of the fighting.

Look at how the Israeli AF will use its F-35s.

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## CriticalThought

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The enemy just wanted to check out the response time---the numberof respondents---and the type of aircraft.



This is right. Whether there is actually an encounter or not, we give away a LOT of information - both logistical and electromagnetic - with each rendezvous.


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## Talon

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The enemy just wanted to check out the response time---the numberof respondents---and the type of aircraft.


And u had call about this from IAF HQ???...no offense but i think u have some personal grudge with PAF cuz u are always trying to prove them stupid.


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## CriticalThought

Hodor said:


> And u had call about this from IAF HQ???...no offense but i think u have some personal grudge with PAF cuz u are always trying to prove them stupid.



Sir, recently the Americans sent a couple of F-22s to intercept a Russian AWACS. There was much hue and cry because the AWACS would have gotten their heat and EM signatures. This information is invaluable. Not only that, the enemy is studying our maneuvers, our tactics, everything. I don't have any source in any place, this is based on pure logic and reasoning.

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## Talon

Avicenna said:


> So what then for the stated 4.5 gen requirement?
> 
> Even if a country has 5th gen aircraft, your gonna need a sizable 4 and 4+ gen fleet to do the majority of the fighting.
> 
> Look at how the Israeli AF will use its F-35s.


JF-17 will hopefully be upgraded to that level.

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## Avicenna

CriticalThought said:


> Sir, recently the Americans sent a couple of F-22s to intercept a Russian AWACS. There was much hue and cry because the AWACS would have gotten their heat and EM signatures. This information is invaluable. Not only that, the enemy is studying our maneuvers, our tactics, everything. I don't have any source in any place, this is based on pure logic and reasoning.



Pretty sure the USAF is aware of this. And accordingly took precautions.


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## Talon

Avicenna said:


> So what then for the stated 4.5 gen requirement?
> 
> Even if a country has 5th gen aircraft, your gonna need a sizable 4 and 4+ gen fleet to do the majority of the fighting.
> 
> Look at how the Israeli AF will use its F-35s.


JF-17 will hopefully be upgraded to that level.

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## Alpha BeeTee

CriticalThought said:


> This is exactly what happens when delusional politicians, stoked from their newly inked multi-billion dollar deal of French aircraft, consider themselves already invincible and order surgical strikes. The poor democracy loving airmen and soldiers have no option but to comply but putting on a sham.
> 
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa)


I won't say that their confidence is misplaced..specially after Rafale arrives.We'll have very less to offer unfortunately.


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## Talon

CriticalThought said:


> This is right. Whether there is actually an encounter or not, we give away a LOT of information - both logistical and electromagnetic - with each rendezvous.


so does the enemy.

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## Alpha BeeTee

Hassan Guy said:


> Paf already has 2 types of 4th gen single engine fighters


Which are no match for what the adversary has in huge numbers.


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## Avicenna

Hodor said:


> JF-17 will hopefully be upgraded to that level.



Best case for the JF-17 Block 3 and beyond is being comparable to the Gripen NG type platform. Within +/- 10 percent.

Which if that is the case is a MAJOR success for the program.

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## CriticalThought

Hodor said:


> so does the enemy.



Well, as long as we are on top of the situation...


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## Alpha BeeTee

Avicenna said:


> So what then for the stated 4.5 gen requirement?
> 
> Even if a country has 5th gen aircraft, your gonna need a sizable 4 and 4+ gen fleet to do the majority of the fighting.
> 
> Look at how the Israeli AF will use its F-35s.


No one actually knows.

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## Talon

Alpha BeeTee said:


> I won't say that their confidence is misplaced..specially after Rafale arrives.We'll have very less to offer unfortunately.


IAF has always been advanced than us.PAFs fight ratio against india is 1:5


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## Hassan Guy

Alpha BeeTee said:


> Which are no match for what the adversary has in huge numbers.


Wrong.


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## CriticalThought

Hodor said:


> so does the enemy.



Apologies for drilling into this, feel free to answer as you feel comfortable.

Since the enemy is the instigator and the aggressor, the enemy is controlling the situation. The enemy decides how much he gives away. I really hope we are staying on top of this game.


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## Alpha BeeTee

Hassan Guy said:


> Wrong.


Su35,Mig29,Mig21,Rafael
All in huge numbers.
I'm sorry to say sir but all the confidence PAF fanboys have is gravely misplaced.We're a decade or two behind them.
Our only hope is that war doesn't arrive and if at all it does,it be as short as we can survive.
Our aircraft alone give little optimism but groud defences involving synchronised defence tactics give little hope of survival.Air warfare is much more than expensive planes.


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## Ahmet Pasha

Then why are indins still very cowardly???
I mean when USA believes it has a huge numerical and technical superiority, it goes and gets the country it wants.
Whereas, Indians only make attempts at inciting war but dont do anything???


Hodor said:


> IAF has always been advanced than us.PAFs fight ratio against india is 1:5

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## Alpha BeeTee

Hodor said:


> IAF has always been advanced than us.PAFs fight ratio against india is 1:5


Sir numerical superority is not that big an issue when the adversary is technologically at par.
Now they are way ahead in terms of technology.


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## CriticalThought

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Then why are indins still very cowardly???
> I mean when USA believes it has a huge numerical and technical superiority, it goes and gets the country it wants.
> Whereas, Indians only make attempts at inciting war but dont do anything???



Cowardice. They dream of achieving absolute superiority and crushing their enemies like maggots beneath their feet. And they want to make this dream a reality. Unfortunately for them, reality isn't a bed of roses.

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## Talon

CriticalThought said:


> Apologies for drilling into this, feel free to answer as you feel comfortable.
> 
> Since the enemy is the instigator and the aggressor, the enemy is controlling the situation. The enemy decides how much he gives away. I really hope we are staying on top of this game.


PAF flies number of sorties per base per day including scenarios of red and blue..do u think they just learn how to airborne planes and not learn opponent's pros and cons?

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## Avicenna

CriticalThought said:


> Cowardice. They dream of achieving absolute superiority and crushing their enemies like maggots beneath their feet. And they want to make this dream a reality. Unfortunately for them, reality isn't a bed of roses.



Be that as it may, the strengthening relationship between India and Israel will be problematic for the PAF going forward.


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## CriticalThought

Avicenna said:


> Be that as it may, the strengthening relationship between India and Israel will be problematic for the PAF going forward.



I'm not under-estimating them, just describing their creed.

The world today is in a flux. Many things will change. We need strong leadership to steer us towards a position of power and influence in the world.


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## CriticalThought

Hodor said:


> PAF flies number of sorties per base per day including scenarios of red and blue..do u think they just learn how to airborne planes and not learn opponent's pros and cons?



Sir, I am concerned about things like radar frequencies, radar and heat signatures, etc. Every encounter leaks this information, and provides the smart enemy a lot of data to fine tune their weapons and tactics.


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## Talon

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Then why are indins still very cowardly???
> I mean when USA believes it has a huge numerical and technical superiority, it goes and gets the country it wants.
> Whereas, Indians only make attempts at inciting war but dont do anything???


cuz they are R********S...and USA only tries to get any country it wants,never been successful e.g afghanistan etc



Alpha BeeTee said:


> Sir numerical superority is not that big an issue when the adversary is technologically at par.
> Now they are way ahead in terms of technology.


u urself said in HUGE NUMBERS and now u are saying numbers dont matter..kindly stick to one point.


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## Avicenna

CriticalThought said:


> I'm not under-estimating them, just describing their creed.
> 
> The world today is in a flux. Many things will change. We need strong leadership to steer us towards a position of power and influence in the world.



Agreed. But I'm not so optimistic about the prospects of "strong" leadership in the muslim world, unfortunately.

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## CriticalThought

Avicenna said:


> Agreed. But I'm not so optimistic about the prospects of "strong" leadership in the muslim world, unfortunately.



I am praying and hoping for the best myself.

May Allah Grant our leaders the foresight and fortitude to plan for these coming challenges, and may He Grant power and strength to Islam and Muslims around the world. Aaameen.

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## Avicenna

Ameen. Now back to the PAF:

Do we know why the PAF is so against the J-10?


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## CriticalThought

Avicenna said:


> Ameen. Now back to the PAF:
> 
> Do we know why the PAF is so against the J-10?



My theory: it doesn't provide much of an edge over what we currently have.


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## Ahmet Pasha

What is even more problematic is why PAF rejected weapons systems when they were being offered. Now those same platforms are cutting edge tech in the hands of our enemy.


Hodor said:


> cuz they are RUNDIANS...and USA only tries to get any country it wants,never been successful e.g afghanistan etc
> 
> 
> u urself said in HUGE NUMBERS and now u are saying numbers dont matter..kindly stick to one point.





Avicenna said:


> Ameen. Now back to the PAF:
> 
> Do we know why the PAF is so against the J-10?


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## Talon

CriticalThought said:


> Sir, I am concerned about things like radar frequencies, radar and heat signatures, etc. Every encounter leaks this information, and provides the smart enemy a lot of data to fine tune their weapons and tactics.


Dear,F-16's system is widely known...even simulations like FALCON BMS perform what a real f16 does(almost each and every thing) so F16s DASH-1(hope u know what it is) is not some big secret.
Moreover,IAF holds exercises with USAF f16s as well as those of IDAF so again system ...!!!
and INDIA is not a SMART ENEMY.

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## Avicenna

CriticalThought said:


> My theory: it doesn't provide much of an edge over what we currently have.



Yea i assume that was the case with the J-10A circa 2009-2012.

But what about the J-10C which may possibly be comparable to the F-16E that UAE has.

Is the problem, permission to buy the Al-31s?

Obviously, its ideal to pick up more used late model F-16s, and I am sure the PAF is betting on going that route.

HOWEVER, its likely the US is going to become increasingly antagonistic towards Pakistan in the future. And approval of the transfer of F-16s may not be possible.

Rather than be caught with their pants down, perhaps prepare for that scenario and start introducing the J-10C now.


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## Talon

Avicenna said:


> Yea i assume that was the case with the J-10A circa 2009-2012.
> 
> But what about the J-10C which may possibly be comparable to the F-16E that UAE has.
> 
> Is the problem, permission to buy the Al-31s?
> 
> Obviously, its ideal to pick up more used late model F-16s, and I am sure the PAF is betting on going that route.
> 
> HOWEVER, its likely the US is going to become increasingly antagonistic towards Pakistan in the future. And approval of the transfer of F-16s may not be possible.
> 
> Rather than be caught with their pants down, perhaps prepare for that scenario and start introducing the J-10C now.


Cover J10c gap with JFT as far as it can and use main funds on 5th gen.

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## TaimiKhan

Hodor said:


> cuz they are R********S...and USA only tries to get any country it wants,never been successful e.g afghanistan etc
> 
> 
> u urself said in HUGE NUMBERS and now u are saying numbers dont matter..kindly stick to one point.



If u have used this abusive word for our easterly neighbour, consider this as warning. 

Abusive language will not be tolerated.


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## Avicenna

Are most of the F-7P phased out at this point?

I'm assuming the F-7PG are here to stay for a good while.

Next up for replacement are the remaining F-7P...

Perhaps the JF-17B will take over in No.18 squadron?

Then comes the Mirages due for replacement....


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## Talon

TaimiKhan said:


> If u have used this abusive word for our easterly neighbour, consider this as warning.
> 
> Abusive language will not be tolerated.


apologies.



Avicenna said:


> Are most of the F-7P phased out at this point?
> 
> I'm assuming the F-7PG are here to stay for a good while.
> 
> Next up for replacement are the remaining F-7P...
> 
> Perhaps the JF-17B will take over in No.18 squadron?
> 
> Then comes the Mirages due for replacement....


Ticks for all ur thoughts...only two F7P sqns remain no. 18 and CCS DASHINGS

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## SQ8

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The enemy just wanted to check out the response time---the numberof respondents---and the type of aircraft.


They already know that to an extent, it was more of a "I double dare ya"... whilst actually sweating under the collar.

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## MastanKhan

Hodor said:


> And u had call about this from IAF HQ???...no offense but i think u have some personal grudge with PAF cuz u are always trying to prove them stupid.



Hi,

Just because you know a couple of fighter jocks does not mean the operating procedure of the enemy has changed---or the tactics of war have changed---.

It is a thousands of years old technique---make an incursion to see enemy's strength or weakness---.

As for personal grudge---as a pakistani I say that Paf heirarchy are traitors of pakistan.


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## Stephen Cohen

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The enemy just wqnted to check out the response time---the numberof respondents---and the type of aircraft.



What we did recently is more worrying for you 

One Entire squadron took off in Quick succession ; one plane after another 
but in different directions ; from different air bases at the same time 

And your several air bases ; and Air defences started buzzing which was picked up by
SIGINT and ELINT planes


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

Streets go in both directions.


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## Bratva

CriticalThought said:


> Sir, I am concerned about things like radar frequencies, radar and heat signatures, etc. Every encounter leaks this information, and provides the smart enemy a lot of data to fine tune their weapons and tactics.



Enemy already know F-16 Blk 52 radar frequencies and heat signatures because of this 

http://www.f-16.net/f-16-news-article2564.html

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/f-16...ngapore-india-joint-military-exercise.412595/

https://www.offiziere.ch/?p=23103


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

CriticalThought said:


> This is exactly what happens when delusional politicians, stoked from their newly inked multi-billion dollar deal of French aircraft, consider themselves already invincible and order surgical strikes. The poor democracy loving airmen and soldiers have no option but to comply but putting on a sham.
> 
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa)


Yup... notwithstanding the reality that those politicians also built India's foreign relations with the US, UK, Russia, Japan, KSA, UAE and now even Turkey, whilst also spearheading efforts to maintain India's image in the world stage as a plural society and democracy. Can't be capable all the time and in all places, but overall, they've done a good job.


----------



## CriticalThought

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Yup... notwithstanding the reality that those politicians also built India's foreign relations with the US, UK, Russia, Japan, KSA, UAE and now even Turkey, whilst also spearheading efforts to maintain India's image in the world stage as a plural society and democracy. Can't be capable all the time and in all places, but overall, they've done a good job.



I am in agreement here. We need to get our act together on foreign affairs in general, centralize its planning, and institutionalize its execution. But in the past few years, this has been a failure of the civilian government. It is wrong to blame any arm of the tri-services.



Avicenna said:


> Yea i assume that was the case with the J-10A circa 2009-2012.
> 
> But what about the J-10C which may possibly be comparable to the F-16E that UAE has.
> 
> Is the problem, permission to buy the Al-31s?
> 
> Obviously, its ideal to pick up more used late model F-16s, and I am sure the PAF is betting on going that route.
> 
> HOWEVER, its likely the US is going to become increasingly antagonistic towards Pakistan in the future. And approval of the transfer of F-16s may not be possible.
> 
> Rather than be caught with their pants down, perhaps prepare for that scenario and start introducing the J-10C now.



I agree with @Hodor. Also, let's wait to see the final specs for Block 3 before comparing with J-10C



Hodor said:


> Dear,F-16's system is widely known...even simulations like FALCON BMS perform what a real f16 does(almost each and every thing) so F16s DASH-1(hope u know what it is) is not some big secret.
> Moreover,IAF holds exercises with USAF f16s as well as those of IDAF so again system ...!!!
> and INDIA is not a SMART ENEMY.



Sir, NEVER underestimate the enemy.


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

CriticalThought said:


> I am in agreement here. We need to get our act together on foreign affairs in general, centralize its planning, and institutionalize its execution. But in the past few years, this has been a failure of the civilian government. It is wrong to blame any arm of the tri-services.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with @Hodor. Also, let's wait to see the final specs for Block 3 before comparing with J-10C
> 
> 
> 
> Sir, NEVER underestimate the enemy.


Saying that the PAF does its diplomacy work isn't casting blame on the PAF, but making an observation (albeit of a process that shouldn't happen). The PAF is working though the same open door as Hussain Haqqani (in that neither are elected representatives), so it's a door that needs to be shut

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## CriticalThought

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Saying that the PAF does its diplomacy work isn't casting blame on the PAF, but making an observation (albeit of a process that shouldn't happen). The PAF is working though the same open door as Hussain Haqqani (in that neither are elected representatives), so it's a door that needs to be shut



Yes, I see your point. If any XYZ can represent us and our interests however they choose, without consultation with the rest of power centres in the country, that is a recipe for disaster.

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## fatman17

Just a nice picture

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## fatman17

Just a nice picture

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## Talon

CriticalThought said:


> I am in agreement here. We need to get our act together on foreign affairs in general, centralize its planning, and institutionalize its execution. But in the past few years, this has been a failure of the civilian government. It is wrong to blame any arm of the tri-services.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with @Hodor. Also, let's wait to see the final specs for Block 3 before comparing with J-10C
> 
> 
> 
> Sir, NEVER underestimate the enemy.


I am not.

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## CriticalThought

Hodor said:


> I am not.
> 
> View attachment 416463



It's beautiful so long as it serves Pakistan's vested interests.


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## Ahmet Pasha

Also the former defence minister was doing good work. With r&d and local development and sales to friendly nations. But now we cant be sure if the same policies will continue.


Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Saying that the PAF does its diplomacy work isn't casting blame on the PAF, but making an observation (albeit of a process that shouldn't happen). The PAF is working though the same open door as Hussain Haqqani (in that neither are elected representatives), so it's a door that needs to be shut





CriticalThought said:


> Yes, I see your point. If any XYZ can represent us and our interests however they choose, without consultation with the rest of power centres in the country, that is a recipe for disaster.


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## CriticalThought

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Also the former defence minister was doing good work. With r&d and local development and sales to friendly nations. But now we cant be sure if the same policies will continue.



Well, former Defence Minister is now Foreign Minister. He look like an educated, reasonable person. Hopefully he will handle the job well. And hopefully his successor in Defence Ministry will be as capable as him.


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## Ahmet Pasha

See thats the problem.
Say bush wants to destroy Iraq and say his term is over. The incoming president will continue his policies or devise a better policy.
In pakistan however, when the man changes policy changes as well.


CriticalThought said:


> Well, former Defence Minister is now Foreign Minister. He look like an educated, reasonable person. Hopefully he will handle the job well. And hopefully his successor in Defence Ministry will be as capable as him.

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## Talon

PAF C130 at Exercise Mobility Guardian..

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## Ahmet Pasha

What is that cheeseburger with goggles doing. On the aircraft.


Hodor said:


> PAF C130 at Exercise Mobility Guardian..
> View attachment 416538
> View attachment 416541
> View attachment 416537


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## Talon

Ahmet Pasha said:


> What is that cheeseburger with goggles doing. On the aircraft.


The mission involved joint aeromedical evacuation.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Also the former defence minister was doing good work. With r&d and local development and sales to friendly nations. But now we cant be sure if the same policies will continue.





CriticalThought said:


> Well, former Defence Minister is now Foreign Minister. He look like an educated, reasonable person. Hopefully he will handle the job well. And hopefully his successor in Defence Ministry will be as capable as him.


I don't know about Khawaja Asif (former DM/current FM), but the one spearheading a lot of the work in the past few years was the Minister of Defence Production Rana Tanveer Hussain. I believe he is still in that post.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Ah yes I actually meant him.


Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I don't know about Khawaja Asif (former DM/current FM), but the one spearheading a lot of the work in the past few years was the Minister of Defence Production Rana Tanveer Hussain. I believe he is still in that post.

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## fatman17

F16A MLU

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## fatman17



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## Readerdefence

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 416615
> 
> F16A MLU


Hi when it says top gun only the person you have this can fly that specific plane or some body else can? Beside this once that top gun move on to another duty that insignia still attached to that plane ?
Thx in advance if you can answer the query


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## fatman17

Readerdefence said:


> Hi when it says top gun only the person you have this can fly that specific plane or some body else can? Beside this once that top gun move on to another duty that insignia still attached to that plane ?
> Thx in advance if you can answer the query


I'm not sure but these aircraft may be subordinated to CCS and thus the Topgun motif.

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## Talon

Readerdefence said:


> Hi when it says top gun only the person you have this can fly that specific plane or some body else can? Beside this once that top gun move on to another duty that insignia still attached to that plane ?
> Thx in advance if you can answer the query


All the PAF vipers that took part in Anatolian eagle 16 had Topgun on them and they still hv it.This photo is from July.








fatman17 said:


> I'm not sure but these aircraft may be subordinated to CCS and thus the Topgun motif.


Griffins fly under CCS and not Arrows as far as i know.

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## Zarvan

__ https://www.facebook.com/


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## Ahmet Pasha

Can u still withstand high gs even if u r old?


Zarvan said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/


@Hodor @Windjammer


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## Ultima Thule

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Can u still withstand high gs even if u r old?
> 
> @Hodor @Windjammer


if you're physically and mentally fit then


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## Raider 21

Hodor said:


> All the PAF vipers that took part in Anatolian eagle 16 had Topgun on them and they still hv it.This photo is from July.
> View attachment 416714
> 
> 
> 
> *Griffins fly under CCS and not Arrows as far as i know.*


Correct.....the CCS stamps in the logbooks would normally have the No.9 OC and Flight Commander stamps.

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## Talon

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Can u still withstand high gs even if u r old?
> 
> @Hodor @Windjammer


depends on the old man..chuck yeager had a ride in an F-15 when he was 90 years old

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## Talon

Finally...

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## fatman17

Hodor said:


> Finally...
> View attachment 417207


Cool


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## Ahmet Pasha

Awesome....shouldve gotten m version 
So we could put miniguns and machine guns on it.


Hodor said:


> Finally...
> View attachment 417207

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## Talon

fatman17 said:


> Cool





Ahmet Pasha said:


> Awesome....shouldve gotten m version
> So we could put miniguns and machine guns on it.


This is over islamabad..any thoughts of it being part of the airshow?


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## Ahmet Pasha

Dnt usually all elements of aviation corps participate during the 23 march parade?


Hodor said:


> This is over islamabad..any thoughts of it being part of the airshow?


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## Talon

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Dnt usually all elements of aviation corps participate during the 23 march parade?


Yeah but this aint 23rd march parade..


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## khanasifm

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Awesome....shouldve gotten m version
> So we could put miniguns and machine guns on it.



So paf did started replacing aullote iii with aw139 for sar mission?? Which is medium weight vs French light weight heli 

Perhaps these will be used for sar plus vvip transport ?? 

Also 4th mi171 sqn being raised so 8/9 heli sqn will have 3-4 heli each with mi171 or aw139 about same price though but 171 can carry 5k kg with sling and 4K kg internally aw139 can carry about half


At one time it was decided for all 3 services to choose same platform for heli af and army seems to selected mi171 and aw139 navy is different story as they need specialised version 
And long ranged so sticking to sea king for now and not sure will go for m171 

Mil version for sar aw139 https://www.google.com/search?q=paf...0#imgdii=Wnt9QsYASHOoSM:&imgrc=NGaONoRlh9q47M:


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## Ahmet Pasha

Newer version of mi17 is being developed by china und rossia. PAC is negotiating assembly/ workshare from TAI any chance we could do same with this helicopter.


khanasifm said:


> So paf did started replacing aullote iii with aw139 for sar mission?? Which is medium weight vs French light weight heli
> 
> Perhaps these will be used for sar plus vvip transport ??
> 
> Also 4th mi171 sqn being raised so 8/9 heli sqn will have 3-4 heli each with mi171 or aw139 about same price though but 171 can carry 5k kg with sling and 4K kg internally aw139 can carry about half
> 
> 
> At one time it was decided for all 3 services to choose same platform for heli af and army seems to selected mi171 and aw139 navy is different story as they need specialised version
> And long ranged so sticking to sea king for now and not sure will go for m171
> 
> Mil version for sar aw139 https://www.google.com/search?q=paf...0#imgdii=Wnt9QsYASHOoSM:&imgrc=NGaONoRlh9q47M:





Hodor said:


> Finally...
> View attachment 417207





khanasifm said:


> So paf did started replacing aullote iii with aw139 for sar mission?? Which is medium weight vs French light weight heli
> 
> Perhaps these will be used for sar plus vvip transport ??
> 
> Also 4th mi171 sqn being raised so 8/9 heli sqn will have 3-4 heli each with mi171 or aw139 about same price though but 171 can carry 5k kg with sling and 4K kg internally aw139 can carry about half
> 
> 
> At one time it was decided for all 3 services to choose same platform for heli af and army seems to selected mi171 and aw139 navy is different story as they need specialised version
> And long ranged so sticking to sea king for now and not sure will go for m171
> 
> Mil version for sar aw139 https://www.google.com/search?q=paf...0#imgdii=Wnt9QsYASHOoSM:&imgrc=NGaONoRlh9q47M:


IMHO that bird does look like die m version.


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## fatman17

Harbin Y-12 Aircraft of Air Eagle Refurbished by PIA







Karachi; May 12, 2017

PIA Engineering and Maintenance Division has refurbished the interior and exterior of Harbin Y-12 aircraft of Air Eagle (A Project of Pakistan Air Force) - aireagle.pk . 

The paint job and cabin refurbishment of the aircraft was completed and the aircraft was made ready for delivery to Air Eagle yesterday.

A simple ceremony was held at PIA head office where acting CEO PIA Nayyar Hayat and Chief Executive of Air Eagle, Air Commodore (Retd.) Shahjahan Sattar Khan signed the acceptance/delivery receipt of the refurbished aircraft at PIA Head Office. 

CEO PIA Nayyar Hayat while sharing his views on the occasion said that PIA Engineering is aiming to expand its maintenance capabilities to fill in the demand gap for servicing aircraft in Pakistan.

Speaking on the occasion Mr. Shahjahan Sattar Khan appreciated the refurbishment work on Y-12 aircraft carried out by PIA Engineering Division. 

Chief Technical Officer PIA Amir Ali and other senior officials of PIA and Air Eagle were present at the occasion.

PIA Engineering & Maintenance Division had earlier this month successfully carried out Check '1-C' of Pakistan Navy’s ATR 72 aircraft and is also providing maintenance services to major regional operators like Qatar Airways, Saudi Arabian Airlines, Oman Air, Fly Dubai and Gulf Air.

Source: PIA Press Release (May 12, 2017)

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## khanasifm

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/a...or-usaf-but-top-commander-wants-uh-60-353436/



https://www.flightglobal.com/news/a...ack-hawk-revival-in-search-for-huey-r-422150/


Finally 

A source close to the program notes that the Blackhawk costs up to $35 million, whereas other aircraft that would compete for this contract are half the price to acquire. Also, Blackhawks costs more than $5,000/hour to operate compared to $1,500 for some of the other likely competitors.

http://breakingdefense.com/2016/05/air-force-abandons-sole-source-nuke-helos-deal/


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## khanasifm

M or military/GOVT version https://www.google.com/amp/s/thaimi...-is-the-militarised-version-of-the-aw139/amp/


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## fatman17

fatman17 said:


> Harbin Y-12 Aircraft of Air Eagle Refurbished by PIA
> View attachment 417330
> 
> 
> 
> Karachi; May 12, 2017
> 
> PIA Engineering and Maintenance Division has refurbished the interior and exterior of Harbin Y-12 aircraft of Air Eagle (A Project of Pakistan Air Force) - aireagle.pk .
> 
> The paint job and cabin refurbishment of the aircraft was completed and the aircraft was made ready for delivery to Air Eagle yesterday.
> 
> A simple ceremony was held at PIA head office where acting CEO PIA Nayyar Hayat and Chief Executive of Air Eagle, Air Commodore (Retd.) Shahjahan Sattar Khan signed the acceptance/delivery receipt of the refurbished aircraft at PIA Head Office.
> 
> CEO PIA Nayyar Hayat while sharing his views on the occasion said that PIA Engineering is aiming to expand its maintenance capabilities to fill in the demand gap for servicing aircraft in Pakistan.
> 
> Speaking on the occasion Mr. Shahjahan Sattar Khan appreciated the refurbishment work on Y-12 aircraft carried out by PIA Engineering Division.
> 
> Chief Technical Officer PIA Amir Ali and other senior officials of PIA and Air Eagle were present at the occasion.
> 
> PIA Engineering & Maintenance Division had earlier this month successfully carried out Check '1-C' of Pakistan Navy’s ATR 72 aircraft and is also providing maintenance services to major regional operators like Qatar Airways, Saudi Arabian Airlines, Oman Air, Fly Dubai and Gulf Air.
> 
> Source: PIA Press Release (May 12, 2017)


OUR FLEET 

L-382B (C-130) HERCULES AP-AUT

Specifications:

Crew : 06Capacity : 84 paxWing Span: 40.41 M (132 ft 7 in)Empty Operating Weight: 33.06 TonesMax Payload : 20.4 Tones


Y-12

Specifications:

Crew: 2Capacity: 17 passengersWingspan: 17.24 m (56 ft 6½ in)Empty Operating Weight: 2,84 Tons


Cessna-172 P

Specifications:

Crew: oneCapacity: 03 passengersWingspan: 11.0 m (36 ft 1 in)Empty Operating Weight: 767 kg


Saab 2000

The Saab 2000 is a twin-engine turboprop-powered regional airliner produced by the Swedish manufacturer Saab AB.

Specifications:

Crew: 02Capacity: 45 PassengersWing Span :24.76 m (81.2 ft)Empty Operating Weight: 13,500 Kg (29,762 lbs)Max. Takeoff Weight: 22,000 Kg (48,502 lbs)


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## fatman17

Nigerian President Osinbajo unveils five Super Mushshak aircrafts bought from Pakistan
https://t.co/5BECLU45rQ https://t.co/r8REXpFGif

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## Zarvan

Fulfillment of defence requirements, top priority of government .

On the occasion, the Air Chief briefed the Minister about ongoing and future development projects of Pakistan Air Force (PAF) and other related financial matters.

ISLAMABAD: Finance Minister, Senator Mohammad Ishaq Dar on Wednesday said that fulfilling defence requirements was the top priority of the PML-N Government.

The Finance Minister was talking to Chief of the Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman, who called on him here, according to statement issued by the Finance Ministry.

Dar said that the government acknowledged the services rendered by the Air Force for the country and would continue to make sure that all their financial requirements are catered to.

The minister appreciated different development schemes being undertaken by the PAF to enhance its operational capability.

He made particular mention of PAF’s important role in the Operation Zarb-e-Azb, to eliminate the menace of terrorism.


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## khanasifm

Jf block 3 order need to be placed by paf ?? 2017


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## hassan1



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## TaimiKhan

hassan1 said:


> View attachment 417510


So atleast 2 r with PAF. nice addition.

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## CHI RULES

Any one having some info abt JF17 block-III


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## SQ8

fatman17 said:


> OUR FLEET
> 
> L-382B (C-130) HERCULES AP-AUT
> 
> Specifications:
> 
> Crew : 06Capacity : 84 paxWing Span: 40.41 M (132 ft 7 in)Empty Operating Weight: 33.06 TonesMax Payload : 20.4 Tones
> 
> 
> Y-12
> 
> Specifications:
> 
> Crew: 2Capacity: 17 passengersWingspan: 17.24 m (56 ft 6½ in)Empty Operating Weight: 2,84 Tons
> 
> 
> Cessna-172 P
> 
> Specifications:
> 
> Crew: oneCapacity: 03 passengersWingspan: 11.0 m (36 ft 1 in)Empty Operating Weight: 767 kg
> 
> 
> Saab 2000
> 
> The Saab 2000 is a twin-engine turboprop-powered regional airliner produced by the Swedish manufacturer Saab AB.
> 
> Specifications:
> 
> Crew: 02Capacity: 45 PassengersWing Span :24.76 m (81.2 ft)Empty Operating Weight: 13,500 Kg (29,762 lbs)Max. Takeoff Weight: 22,000 Kg (48,502 lbs)


They also looked at a A330 but the deal fell apart for some reason


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Oscar said:


> They also looked at a A330 but the deal fell apart for some reason


Speaking of which...it would be nice if the PAF could get 2-3 A330 MRTTs. 

Quite a few advantages.

These could provide AAR support to the F-16s and JF-17s (and the plus-one fighter if attained) thanks to both hose-and-drogue and boom refueling. By virtue of being an airliner, it is also much more fuel efficient than the IL-78. As the wings contain the fuel, the MRTT still retains the cabin and cargo areas of the A330, so it can double as a transport, passenger plane or even another special mission aircraft (e.g. HADR, airborne C2, etc). 

Honestly, even getting 1 might be a boon.

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## khanasifm

TaimiKhan said:


> So atleast 2 r with PAF. nice addition.



2 ?? 4 were ordered ??


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## Ahmet Pasha

I think he is getting the number from the tail.
Cuz it says 17-002
So there must be 2 aircraft
Or it could be the 1st chopper manufactured in 2017.


khanasifm said:


> 2 ?? 4 were ordered ??


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## TaimiKhan

Ahmet Pasha said:


> I think he is getting the number from the tail.
> Cuz it says 17-002
> So there must be 2 aircraft
> Or it could be the 1st chopper manufactured in 2017.


17-002 means, it came into service in 2017 and 002 means its the 2nd chopper which came in service in 2017. 


khanasifm said:


> 2 ?? 4 were ordered ??


From what i heard the number is 4-6 helicopters but not sure if all will come in one batch.


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## fatman17

TaimiKhan said:


> So atleast 2 r with PAF. nice addition.


All 3 arms will get them eventually


----------



## fatman17

CHI RULES said:


> Any one having some info abt JF17 block-III


Has block ll production completed. 50 aircraft.


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## fatman17

Oscar said:


> They also looked at a A330 but the deal fell apart for some reason


What is this PAF moonlighting as a transport company


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## TaimiKhan

fatman17 said:


> All 3 arms will get them eventually


Yes it seems all 3 armed forces have decided to get this heli as a standard platform. This is good as commonality will bring benefits.

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## fatman17



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## Ahmet Pasha

China and Turkey are making almost the same helicopter in form of t-625. Maybe we could get that along with t129 atak for much better price.
What say u guys???


TaimiKhan said:


> Yes it seems all 3 armed forces have decided to get this heli as a standard platform. This is good as commonality will bring benefits.


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## TaimiKhan

Ahmet Pasha said:


> China and Turkey are making almost the same helicopter in form of t-625. Maybe we could get that along with t129 atak for much better price.
> What say u guys???


Till older gets retired more cant be brought in. T625 is years away, late 2018 first flight and then testing from there 6-10 years before first gets inducted. So for now tried and tested platform more preferred.

We need, light, medium and heavy. Fennecs as light, aw139/bell 214/pumas as medium and mi17 in heavy category.


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## AMG_12

TaimiKhan said:


> 17-002 means, it came into service in 2017 and 002 means its the 2nd chopper which came in service in 2017.
> 
> From what i heard the number is 4-6 helicopters but not sure if all will come in one batch.


I spotted 2 AW-139 yesterday performing rehearsals here in Islamabad, both operated by PAF in the low vis scheme.

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## blinder

Game.Invade said:


> I spotted 2 AW-139 yesterday performing rehearsals here in Islamabad, both operated by PAF in the low vis scheme.


Recently (2016/2017), three Army and three AF AW139 have been seen on pre-delivery test flights in Italy, wearing temporary Italian civil registration marks.
Three were delivered this June (to PAF?) whereas the Army received theirs last August. Could be some more pending delivery...


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## khanasifm

Not sure as navy had z9 but perhaps to replace Aulloute iii like army and af for sar role aw139 has app 1000 km range which for its class is pretty impressive there are 20-30 aullotes in pa plus another 10-15 in af and 8/9 in pn so total of about 40-50

There are 11 aw139 , 5 being flown for disaster MGMT and rest for Vvip fleet ?? 

And now mod orders


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## SQ8

fatman17 said:


> What is this PAF moonlighting as a transport company


Usual side businesses like Shaheen foundation ans faziya- a way to keep(&transition) retired personnel.

Fauji kabhi retyer nahin hote

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## fatman17

Quote of the Day

Muhammad Ali: Superman don’t need no seat belt.
Flight Attendant: Superman don’t need no airplane, either.

-- quoted by Clifton Fadiman, 'The Little, Brown Book of Anecdotes,' 1985

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## fatman17

Saudi Hawks

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## fatman17



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## ghazi52

Get ready to be amazed this 14th of August independence day.





__ https://www.facebook.com/


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## khanasifm

AFM August 2017 

The Pakistan Air Force has been highly effective against terrorists in Pakistan’s FATA region and intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance assets have been at the forefront of its combat operations, as Alan Warnes explains. 

Any thing new ??


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## Zarbe Momin

India is installing ASEA radar on its JAGUAR:::::Why pakistan not put ASEA on mirages and put Rd 93 engine. Because mirages airframe is still useful and worth to make so...South Africa also did so....

Why Pakistan not go further and assembel F-7 PG at Kamra will be cheap and upgrade existing also with new WS-13 engine, ASEA Radar, CFT, and data link with Air born Early warning data link....very cheap and effective......to defend air space....

with CFT there will be more hard point available and WS-13 will give more thrust to compensate CFT.....

BVR capable F-7PG are hell with airborn surviliance data link to defend air space...


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## messiach

@Oscar @El Sidd @Thəorətic Muslim
OK.


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## fatman17



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## SQ8

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 418283
> View attachment 418284


@Windjammer , I wonder what that gentleman is doing now? Lost touch with him a long time back.


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## Windjammer

Oscar said:


> @Windjammer , I wonder what that gentleman is doing now? Lost touch with him a long time back.


Haseeb, Sulheri, Ahsan.....all based in AHQ.....desk jobs and marketing mostly...as far as i know but will try to find out more about this gentleman.

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## CHI RULES

fatman17 said:


> Has block ll production completed. 50 aircraft.


For Allah's sake sir pls get my point behind this simple question. Even a fool knows that production of block ii not completed but I read here and there that PAF shall order block-iii in 2017. First order is placed then production is started. There are reports that design work of block iii is already completed. 
Our adversary deliveries of Rafael is going to start in 2018, and we are still planning. Even IAF Jaguars getting upgrades.
The question more relates to concerns of a layman.

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## The Accountant

I t


CHI RULES said:


> For Allah's sake sir pls get my point behind this simple question. Even a fool knows that production of block ii not completed but I read here and there that PAF shall order block-iii in 2017. First order is placed then production is started. There are reports that design work of block iii is already completed.
> Our adversary deliveries of Rafael is going to start in 2018, and we are still planning. Even IAF Jaguars getting upgrades.
> The question more relates to concerns of a layman.


I think prototype not yet ready ... on paper design is ready but prototype needs to be tested first as definitely there are some minute airframe changes atleat with nose cone ...

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## CHI RULES

The Accountant said:


> I t
> 
> I think prototype not yet ready ... on paper design is ready but prototype needs to be tested first as definitely there are some minute airframe changes atleat with nose cone ...


One should hope that there should be no compromises on the basis of cost and even if block three cannot be at par it should be at least challenging to Rafael. As given here it should have more powerful engine, frontal low RCS, IRST,AESA and capable HOBS WVR AAM, with new BVR (more range and kill zone).

The crap about man behind machine should be stopped and PAF/Govt should also search for new plat form to counter Rafael.

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## CriticalThought

CHI RULES said:


> For Allah's sake sir pls get my point behind this simple question. Even a fool knows that production of block ii not completed but I read here and there that PAF shall order block-iii in 2017. First order is placed then production is started. There are reports that design work of block iii is already completed.
> Our adversary deliveries of Rafael is going to start in 2018, and we are still planning. Even IAF Jaguars getting upgrades.
> The question more relates to concerns of a layman.



Mind your language. You are talking to a very senior poster here.


----------



## CHI RULES

CriticalThought said:


> Mind your language. You are talking to a very senior poster here.


Mind u language too as I was not disrespect ful to him any way



CriticalThought said:


> Mind your language. You are talking to a very senior poster here.


I demand u to explain what disrespect ful words being used


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## The Accountant

I think idea is same ... blk 3 is going to be top end ... although in terms of range it might be difficult to beat rafael but I think plan of PAF is to get 80% to 90% capability of top end fighters and then field them in numbers ... With the help od AWACS, ground radars, it will be deadly for any invading force ...


----------



## CriticalThought

Zarbe Momin said:


> India is installing ASEA radar on its JAGUAR:::::Why pakistan not put ASEA on mirages and put Rd 93 engine. Because mirages airframe is still useful and worth to make so...South Africa also did so....
> 
> Why Pakistan not go further and assembel F-7 PG at Kamra will be cheap and upgrade existing also with new WS-13 engine, ASEA Radar, CFT, and data link with Air born Early warning data link....very cheap and effective......to defend air space....
> 
> with CFT there will be more hard point available and WS-13 will give more thrust to compensate CFT.....
> 
> BVR capable F-7PG are hell with airborn surviliance data link to defend air space...



Eventually, the Thunder will replace all lower tier aircraft. It may take some time, but it will happen eventually. So instead of spending money on upgrading the PGs, its better to spend that money in getting more Thunders and researching 5th gen. Also, it looks like PAF is seriously considering a 'plus one' option, that is, a 4+ gen aircraft in addition to Thunder. This is the direction in which we should be thinking.



The Accountant said:


> I think idea is same ... blk 3 is going to be top end ... although in terms of range it might be difficult to beat rafael but I think plan of PAF is to get 80% to 90% capability of top end fighters and then field them in numbers ... With the help od AWACS, ground radars, it will be deadly for any invading force ...



The real challenge which Rafael presents is superiority of EW package, superiority of weapons package, and top notch situational awareness for the pilot. These things make it extremely dangerous. The good new is that Rafale will pose a danger to China as well.

You might not have noticed, but high end research done for J-20 is slowly trickling down to J-10C and JF-17 as well. Since we share the threat with China, we will work in consort with them to develop a solution for this threat. As long as PAF is alert and works hard to counter this threat, Insha Allah, there is nothing to fear.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

The Accountant said:


> I think idea is same ... blk 3 is going to be top end ... although in terms of range it might be difficult to beat rafael but I think plan of PAF is to get 80% to 90% capability of top end fighters and then field them in numbers ... With the help od AWACS, ground radars, it will be deadly for any invading force ...


It's not so much the Block-III will be in the high-end, rather, it will be the newer block and as such carry the systems of the day (i.e. today it is AESA radars et. al). If the PAF decides to stretch JF-17 induction to 200 or 250 jets, then we'd see Block-IV and Block-V. The big question will be the fate of the Block-I and Block-II. Will they be upgraded to a future block, stay as they are or be sold?

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## The Accountant

Exactly this is what I meant, but the sub-systems we are referring to present in the cutting edge fighters of today ... By high end I meant that it is expected to be much advanced than blk II ...

AESA, probably HMDS, Targeting Pods, IRST pods so all this will be way ahead of current blocks ...


Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It's not so much the Block-III will be in the high-end, rather, it will be the newer block and as such carry the systems of the day (i.e. today it is AESA radars et. al). If the PAF decides to stretch JF-17 induction to 200 or 250 jets, then we'd see Block-IV and Block-V. The big question will be the fate of the Block-I and Block-II. Will they be upgraded to a future block, stay as they are or be sold?





CriticalThought said:


> Eventually, the Thunder will replace all lower tier aircraft. It may take some time, but it will happen eventually. So instead of spending money on upgrading the PGs, its better to spend that money in getting more Thunders and researching 5th gen. Also, it looks like PAF is seriously considering a 'plus one' option, that is, a 4+ gen aircraft in addition to Thunder. This is the direction in which we should be thinking.
> 
> 
> 
> The real challenge which Rafael presents is superiority of EW package, superiority of weapons package, and top notch situational awareness for the pilot. These things make it extremely dangerous. The good new is that Rafale will pose a danger to China as well.
> 
> You might not have noticed, but high end research done for J-20 is slowly trickling down to J-10C and JF-17 as well. Since we share the threat with China, we will work in consort with them to develop a solution for this threat. As long as PAF is alert and works hard to counter this threat, Insha Allah, there is nothing to fear.


Rafael will take atleast 2 to 3 years for integration with the system ... I think situational awareness is key for thunder to overcome its weakness inherited from light weight design ...

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## CriticalThought

The Accountant said:


> Rafael will take atleast 2 to 3 years for integration with the system ... I think situational awareness is key for thunder to overcome its weakness inherited from light weight design ...



Sir, Thunder has no 'weakness inherited from light weight design'.

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## The Accountant

CriticalThought said:


> Sir, Thunder has no 'weakness inherited from light weight design'.


Sir light weight design has following weakness ..

Short range
Engine failure could be fatal
Less no of weapon stations and less weight carrying capability 
Less number of internal subsystems can be incorporated within airframe in comparison to medium and heavy weight ...

So sir keight weight has its advantages as well as disadvantages ..

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## CriticalThought

The Accountant said:


> Sir light weight design has following weakness ..
> 
> Short range
> Engine failure could be fatal
> Less no of weapon stations and less weight carrying capability
> Less number of internal subsystems can be incorporated within airframe in comparison to medium and heavy weight ...
> 
> So sir keight weight has its advantages as well as disadvantages ..



Sir, short range -> air 2 air refueling

Engine failure -> Shoddy Indian argument. There wouldn't be any single engine fighter in the world if this were true.

Payload -> more aircraft.

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## The Accountant

CriticalThought said:


> Sir, short range -> air 2 air refueling
> 
> Engine failure -> Shoddy Indian argument. There wouldn't be any single engine fighter in the world if this were true.
> 
> Payload -> more aircraft.


ir air to air refueling is available for heavy weight aircrafts as well ... so if both are available still range of twin engine is high ...

twin engine is not an indian argument but a fact ...

Payload more aircraft I would have agreed but unfortunately we are already short of aircrafts so this argument is invalid

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## CriticalThought

The Accountant said:


> ir air to air refueling is available for heavy weight aircrafts as well ... so if both are available still range of twin engine is high ...
> 
> twin engine is not an indian argument but a fact ...
> 
> Payload more aircraft I would have agreed but unfortunately we are already short of aircrafts so this argument is invalid



Sir, white house ko bomb karnay ka irada hai kiya?

It's not the reason why forces invest in twin engine aircraft.

The money for twin engine is best invested in single engine.

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## ziaulislam

Zarbe Momin said:


> India is installing ASEA radar on its JAGUAR:::::Why pakistan not put ASEA on mirages and put Rd 93 engine. Because mirages airframe is still useful and worth to make so...South Africa also did so....
> 
> Why Pakistan not go further and assembel F-7 PG at Kamra will be cheap and upgrade existing also with new WS-13 engine, ASEA Radar, CFT, and data link with Air born Early warning data link....very cheap and effective......to defend air space....
> 
> with CFT there will be more hard point available and WS-13 will give more thrust to compensate CFT.....
> 
> BVR capable F-7PG are hell with airborn surviliance data link to defend air space...


Because manufacturing process involved means that airframe is limited to less than 2000 hours vs 4-5 thousand before midlife upgrade for current fighters. So no, you are wrong they dont have much life left. Current mirages have gone multiple rebuilds in mirage rebuild factory, Infact i think even the fuselage portion are running out of life. Ecen if pushed they would be prpblems beyound 2025
So there is no option other than new jf17

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## ziaulislam

CHI RULES said:


> One should hope that there should be no compromises on the basis of cost and even if block three cannot be at par it should be at least challenging to Rafael. As given here it should have more powerful engine, frontal low RCS, IRST,AESA and capable HOBS WVR AAM, with new BVR (more range and kill zone).
> 
> The crap about man behind machine should be stopped and PAF/Govt should also search for new plat form to counter Rafael.


Why do you want more powerful engine
AESA,IRST are likely , HMD will be there if available 
jauguars are due to retire by 2030 beforw that they wil get an expensive upgrade around 2025. Remember orginally this upgarde was plannes for 2000s it seem it will be implemented 20 years late

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## The Accountant

CriticalThought said:


> Sir, white house ko bomb karnay ka irada hai kiya?
> 
> It's not the reason why forces invest in twin engine aircraft.
> 
> The money for twin engine is best invested in single engine.


Lolzzz ... sir irady ka na pochn werna bht kuch tabah hosakta ha ... lolzzz ...

On serious node sir i agree that Pakistan do not intend for deep strike in india and same will be done through stand-off ammunition but from neutral point these are limitations of light weight aircrafts and no matter what ... it will remain as it is ...

We have made our strategies as per our budget constraints but i am sure if we had budget we would gone for few squadrons of heavy weights as well to provide us much needed flexibility ...

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## CriticalThought

The Accountant said:


> Lolzzz ... sir irady ka na pochn werna bht kuch tabah hosakta ha ... lolzzz ...
> 
> On serious node sir i agree that Pakistan do not intend for deep strike in india and same will be done through stand-off ammunition but from neutral point these are limitations of light weight aircrafts and no matter what ... it will remain as it is ...
> 
> We have made our strategies as per our budget constraints but i am sure if we had budget we would gone for few squadrons of heavy weights as well to provide us much needed flexibility ...



It is unfortunate that 'air campaign' conjures images of hundreds of aircrafts bombing a helpless enemy. A war between two well armed, well trained nations will not be like Iraq, Afghanistan, or Syria. In modern aerial warfare, large aircraft without LO, Radar avoidance, and stealthy features will become a liability. Here are the relevant choices: F-22, F-15, F-18, Rafale, EFT, SU-35, J-20. That's it. How many nations can afford them in large numbers?

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## The Accountant

CriticalThought said:


> It is unfortunate that 'air campaign' conjures images of hundreds of aircrafts bombing a helpless enemy. A war between two well armed, well trained nations will not be like Iraq, Afghanistan, or Syria. In modern aerial warfare, large aircraft without LO, Radar avoidance, and stealthy features will become a liability. Here are the relevant choices: F-22, F-15, F-18, Rafale, EFT, SU-35, J-20. That's it. How many nations can afford them in large numbers?


Our adversary is fielding 2 squadrons of those high end fighters ... 

So i completely agree that mki has no advantage over vipers and thunders in blk 3 configuration will eat them raw unless mkis got updated ... however india is putting much higher numbers of mki, mirrage and fulcrums whereas rafael is also on the way ...

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## CriticalThought

The Accountant said:


> Our adversary is fielding 2 squadrons of those high end fighters ...
> 
> So i completely agree that mki has no advantage over vipers and thunders in blk 3 configuration will eat them raw unless mkis got updated ... however india is putting much higher numbers of mki, mirrage and fulcrums whereas rafael is also on the way ...



And a few twin engine aircraft ain't gonna make any difference.


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## fatman17

The SHOW STOPPERS of today's Airshow in #Islamabad.
Wing Commander Yasir Mudassar (JF-17) 
Captain Erhan Günar (F-16, @soloturk) https://t.co/wZpUBQDWe0

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## fatman17

PAF flew in JF 17 Pak/Chinese Jets along with Turks & Saudi Air force...while the Chinese were the Chief guests..
Is Pakistan isolated ? https://t.co/POQo3rOM6B

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## fatman17

AG600

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## Dr. Abdul Basit

Please post videos of the performances

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## Inception-06

fatman17 said:


> The SHOW STOPPERS of today's Airshow in #Islamabad.
> Wing Commander Yasir Mudassar (JF-17)
> Captain Erhan Günar (F-16, @soloturk) https://t.co/wZpUBQDWe0
> View attachment 418466



I had the opportunity to meet the soloturk Pilots, when they noticed that I am Pakistani, they brought me next day an F-16 Solo Turk Patch, I did bring on the third day a Picture of a Jf-17 to him, I wanted to know, what he thinks of this jet, he just said it looks like a capable fighter jet ^^

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## Windjammer

Oscar said:


> @Windjammer , I wonder what that gentleman is doing now? Lost touch with him a long time back.


@Oscar , got the info on THE gent....man he is surely climbing the ladder.
He's ACAS Ops now... been told that it's a Highly sensitive and prized seat. Only the best 1 Star gets it. Did you know that previous to this he was Base Commander Minhas.....and you wouldn't believe who is now running the show at Shahbaz.....

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## SQ8

Windjammer said:


> @Oscar , got the info on THE gent....man he is surely climbing the ladder.
> He's ACAS Ops now... been told that it's a Highly sensitive and prized seat. Only the best 1 Star gets it. Did you know that previous to this he was Base Commander Minhas.....and you wouldn't believe who is now running the show at Shahbaz.....


He has been climbing, that initial T&E job was the impetus

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## fatman17

Dr. Abdul Basit said:


> Please post videos of the performances


Go to utube or twitter or Facebook

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## fatman17

Air Vice Marshal Hamid Rashid Randhawa was commissioned in GD (P) Branch of Pakistan Air Force in June, 1988. He is a qualified flying instructor. During his illustrious career, he has commanded a Flying Squadron, a Flying Wing and an Operational Air Base.


In his staff appointments he has served as assistant chief of the air
staff (Safety) and personal staff officer to chief of the air staff at the Air Headquarters.


He is a graduate of Combat Commanders’ School and National Defence University. He holds Master’s degree in War Studies.


He is recipient of Sitara-i-Imtiaz (Military) and Tamgha-i-Imtiaz
(Military).


Air Vice Marshal Nasser ul Haq Wyne was commissioned in GD (P) Branch
of Pakistan Air Force in June, 1988.
He is a qualified flying instructor. During his illustrious career, he has commanded Flying Instructors’ School, a Flying Squadron, a Flying Wing and an Operational Air Base.


In his staff appointments he has served as secretary to chief of the air
staff at Air Headquarters.
He has also served as air Attache to China. He is a graduate of Combat
Commanders’ School, Air War College and National Defence University. He holds Master’s degrees in Strategic Studies and War Studies and Defence Management.


He is recipient of Sitara-i-Imtiaz (Military) and Tamgha-i-Imtiaz
(Military).

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## Thorough Pro

These are not weaknesses rather features of a light weight fighter.
The second point is funny as though engine failure is not fatal in heavy aircraft? 





The Accountant said:


> Sir light weight design has following weakness ..
> 
> Short range
> Engine failure could be fatal
> Less no of weapon stations and less weight carrying capability
> Less number of internal subsystems can be incorporated within airframe in comparison to medium and heavy weight ...
> 
> So sir keight weight has its advantages as well as disadvantages ..

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## The Accountant

Thorough Pro said:


> These are not weaknesses rather features of a light weight fighter.
> The second point is funny as though engine failure is not fatal in heavy aircraft?


Well let me re-word weakness with limitations ...

Regarding second point ,,, engine problems do occur in twin engine as well but in a lot of cases if there is one engine failure then second engine can help aircraft to land ... for example few days back there was a critical engine failure in hornet flown from US aircraft carrier but aircraft somehow managed to land at Oman air port with the help of single engine ... Such type of failures are fatal in single engine .. just like unfortunate incident in which we lost one of our thunder in the arabian sea

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## khanasifm

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 418696
> 
> Air Vice Marshal Hamid Rashid Randhawa was commissioned in GD (P) Branch of Pakistan Air Force in June, 1988. He is a qualified flying instructor. During his illustrious career, he has commanded a Flying Squadron, a Flying Wing and an Operational Air Base.
> 
> 
> In his staff appointments he has served as assistant chief of the air
> staff (Safety) and personal staff officer to chief of the air staff at the Air Headquarters.
> 
> 
> He is a graduate of Combat Commanders’ School and National Defence University. He holds Master’s degree in War Studies.
> 
> 
> He is recipient of Sitara-i-Imtiaz (Military) and Tamgha-i-Imtiaz
> (Military).
> 
> 
> Air Vice Marshal Nasser ul Haq Wyne was commissioned in GD (P) Branch
> of Pakistan Air Force in June, 1988.
> He is a qualified flying instructor. During his illustrious career, he has commanded Flying Instructors’ School, a Flying Squadron, a Flying Wing and an Operational Air Base.
> 
> 
> In his staff appointments he has served as secretary to chief of the air
> staff at Air Headquarters.
> He has also served as air Attache to China. He is a graduate of Combat
> Commanders’ School, Air War College and National Defence University. He holds Master’s degrees in Strategic Studies and War Studies and Defence Management.
> 
> 
> He is recipient of Sitara-i-Imtiaz (Military) and Tamgha-i-Imtiaz
> (Military).



Allen last book shows one of them leading /Oc no 25 sqn back in 2004-5


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## Inception-06

@khanasifm @Hodor A selam Brothers,

Is it possible to arm the F-7PG Fleet with a Chinese BVR Missile? And would it bring any tactical advantages?

I had the discussion with a German Eurofighter Pilots and asked him, about dog fights and BVR combat he short replied: " If a Pilot is in the range of dogfight, or his aircraft is not capable of BVR, then something must have been gone wrong in the past"!

I understood as: In this times a modern aircraft must be BVR capable- Dogfight is the second stage in the air to air combat, first, the enemy must/should be shot down through a BVR kill!

So our Mirage fleet and neither the F-7PG are BVR capable!

The fighter Pilots were participating in the ILA 2016 in Berlin! If everything will go fine I will meet this Pilots every year, because they stay in my Hotel  Next time I will show them also a picture of the Jf-17 Thunder and analyze their reactions!

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## khanasifm

Ulla said:


> @khanasifm @Hodor A selam Brothers,
> 
> Is it possible to arm the F-7PG Fleet with a Chinese BVR Missile? And would it bring any tactical advantages?
> 
> I had the discussion with a German Eurofighter Pilots and asked him, about dog fights and BVR combat he short replied: " If a Pilot is in the range of dogfight, or his aircraft is not capable of BVR, then something must have been gone wrong in the past"!
> 
> I understood as: In this times a modern aircraft must be BVR capable- Dogfight is the second stage in the air to air combat, first, the enemy must/should be shot down through a BVR kill!
> 
> So our Mirage fleet and neither the F-7PG are BVR capable!
> 
> The fighter Pilots were participating in the ILA 2016 in Berlin! If everything will go fine I will meet this Pilots every year, because they stay in my Hotel  Next time I will show them also a picture of the Jf-17 Thunder and analyze their reactions!



Too late both a/c need replacement not upgrades especially f7s p and pg with 24-2800 hours total life paf flying them w/o Oem support, to extend life beyond the speculated life per paf history book PAC used experienced gained on ft-5 life extension and came up with package for f7 and last of a5s, mirage is different story as Oem still supporting And PAC has lots of experience but spares is a problem or will be some time in future I guess retired ac will be used as spares once it happens 

Best thing is to get fast jf production but I think it's financial not just technical issue, 16 per year ie one sqn per year for now so 3 pg plus 6 mirages sqn ( not counting 2017), guess what's the time is needed, till then paf keep flying them 

I think paf will be happy to get another blk 52 sqn and /or used batch to convert another older sqn totalling 5/6 f16 sqn 

Lastly I think mix of bvr capability (f16 jf) and non bvr (mirage, pg) will go hand in hand to respond to say incursion , violation etc if you check bvr followed by merge will happen unless you take shots and are 100% lucky and get all at bvr, based on historical data 50/50 or less chances but data from early 2000 and technology has improved so who knows 


Just my 2 cents

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## Talon

Ulla said:


> @khanasifm @Hodor A selam Brothers,
> 
> Is it possible to arm the F-7PG Fleet with a Chinese BVR Missile? And would it bring any tactical advantages?
> 
> I had the discussion with a German Eurofighter Pilots and asked him, about dog fights and BVR combat he short replied: " If a Pilot is in the range of dogfight, or his aircraft is not capable of BVR, then something must have been gone wrong in the past"!
> 
> I understood as: In this times a modern aircraft must be BVR capable- Dogfight is the second stage in the air to air combat, first, the enemy must/should be shot down through a BVR kill!
> 
> So our Mirage fleet and neither the F-7PG are BVR capable!
> 
> The fighter Pilots were participating in the ILA 2016 in Berlin! If everything will go fine I will meet this Pilots every year, because they stay in my Hotel  Next time I will show them also a picture of the Jf-17 Thunder and analyze their reactions!


W SALAM,I can share a lot of information on this topic but its classified so all i can say is:
F7s fight with Vipers and try to force them to come into WVR and thus learn how to handle the situation...hope u got my point.


Ulla said:


> So our Mirage fleet and neither the F-7PG are BVR capable!


Strategy is all that matters..

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## SQ8

Hodor said:


> W SALAM,I can share a lot of information on this topic but its classified so all i can say is:
> F7s fight with Vipers and try to force them to come into WVR and thus learn how to handle the situation...hope u got my point.
> 
> Strategy is all that matters..


Not everything about it is classified beyond specific roles and tactics used.
The idea of fighting with BVR fighters and forcing WVR is as old as ACEVAL and AIMVAL, techniques include using Ambush CAP setups, hiding in ground clutter etc

A common practice is to keep changing parameters for BVR missiles; BVR systems depends on target aspect, speed and height which makes the "range" of a BVr system a pretty fluid number- a target coming head on(and mainting its aspect) may be engaged at 50km while one running away will barely make 10km.

So a well trained pilot can confound a BVR shot by constantly changing aspect, speed and height via intelligent energy management and can close to WVR range- that is what our pilots trained to do for almost twenty years prior to BVR coming to PAF(in proper numbers anyway)

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## Khadim e Darul Ehsaan

Hodor said:


> W SALAM,I can share a lot of information on this topic but its classified so all i can say is:
> F7s fight with Vipers and try to force them to come into WVR and thus learn how to handle the situation...hope u got my point.
> 
> Strategy is all that matters..



Sir can i ask what special f7 can do when it carries only two wvr missiles and have drop tanks ? I mean against heavy fighters how much this machine can survive bcz although its true that its not the single fighter jet which took part in interception but still at the end of the day u can only use only use those weapons which u have in yur own bucket ?


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## fatman17

Air Platforms

Chinese SEAD-equipped J-10B emerges at Aviadarts contest





Richard D Fisher Jr - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

16 August 2017

A SEAD-mission-equipped J-10B fighter emerged for the first time at a display concluding the 2017 Aviadarts international aerial competition at Changchun Airbase in Jilin province. Source: Via Dingsheng web page

China has used the recent ‘Aviadarts’ international aerial competition to reveal for the first time that its Chengdu Aircraft Corporation (CAC) J-10B can be equipped to perform suppression of enemy air defences (SEAD) missions, adding to the number of People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) combat aircraft able to perform this mission.

Images of the SEAD-equipped J-10B first appeared on Chinese web pages on 10 August as part of a ground display at Changchun Airbase in Jilin Province, occurring at the end of the Aviadarts competition, part of the larger 2017 International Army Games held from 29 July to 12 August.

For the SEAD mission the J-10B was revealed to carry two Hongdu Aviation Industries YJ-91 anti-radiation missiles (ARMs). The YJ-91 was developed from the Russian Tactical Missile CorporationKh-31 family of ramjet-powered ARM and anti-ship missiles that were first seen in China in the early 2000s. The YJ-91 reportedly requires a separate guidance system pod, which was seen mounted on a fuselage pylon of the J-10B.

As early as 2009 indications emerged that the YJ-91 also could equip the earlier J-10A. However, this version has not been seen with the Southwest Institute of Electronics Equipment (SWIEE) K/RKL007A electronic support measures/electronic countermeasures (ESM/ECM) pod seen under the J-10B. This pod possibly enables or enhances the J-10B’s ability to autonomously attack electronic targets.

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## fatman17

Airforce or Army

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## Talon

Oscar said:


> Not everything about it is classified beyond specific roles and tactics used.
> The idea of fighting with BVR fighters and forcing WVR is as old as ACEVAL and AIMVAL, techniques include using Ambush CAP setups, hiding in ground clutter etc
> 
> A common practice is to keep changing parameters for BVR missiles; BVR systems depends on target aspect, speed and height which makes the "range" of a BVr system a pretty fluid number- a target coming head on(and mainting its aspect) may be engaged at 50km while one running away will barely make 10km.
> 
> So a well trained pilot can confound a BVR shot by constantly changing aspect, speed and height via intelligent energy management and can close to WVR range- that is what our pilots trained to do for almost twenty years prior to BVR coming to PAF(in proper numbers anyway)


The classified stuff is related to PAF and its strategies,plans and operations(especially the aircrafts) and not to general concept of BVR and WVR.For the rest of the stuff u said,nobody can argue on that..!



Khadim e Darul Ehsaan said:


> Sir can i ask what special f7 can do when it carries only two wvr missiles and have drop tanks ? I mean against heavy fighters how much this machine can survive bcz although its true that its not the single fighter jet which took part in interception but still at the end of the day u can only use only use those weapons which u have in yur own bucket ?


It all depends on how u use ur bucket..and yes there are always more than one aircraft and more than one type.
P.s drop tanks are always jettisoned before engagement

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## CriticalThought

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 419221
> 
> Airforce or Army



Would be interesting if it can be converted into a drone and piloted remotely.


----------



## TOPGUN

fatman17 said:


> Air Platforms
> 
> Chinese SEAD-equipped J-10B emerges at Aviadarts contest
> View attachment 419215
> 
> 
> Richard D Fisher Jr - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
> 
> 16 August 2017
> 
> A SEAD-mission-equipped J-10B fighter emerged for the first time at a display concluding the 2017 Aviadarts international aerial competition at Changchun Airbase in Jilin province. Source: Via Dingsheng web page
> 
> China has used the recent ‘Aviadarts’ international aerial competition to reveal for the first time that its Chengdu Aircraft Corporation (CAC) J-10B can be equipped to perform suppression of enemy air defences (SEAD) missions, adding to the number of People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) combat aircraft able to perform this mission.
> 
> Images of the SEAD-equipped J-10B first appeared on Chinese web pages on 10 August as part of a ground display at Changchun Airbase in Jilin Province, occurring at the end of the Aviadarts competition, part of the larger 2017 International Army Games held from 29 July to 12 August.
> 
> For the SEAD mission the J-10B was revealed to carry two Hongdu Aviation Industries YJ-91 anti-radiation missiles (ARMs). The YJ-91 was developed from the Russian Tactical Missile CorporationKh-31 family of ramjet-powered ARM and anti-ship missiles that were first seen in China in the early 2000s. The YJ-91 reportedly requires a separate guidance system pod, which was seen mounted on a fuselage pylon of the J-10B.
> 
> As early as 2009 indications emerged that the YJ-91 also could equip the earlier J-10A. However, this version has not been seen with the Southwest Institute of Electronics Equipment (SWIEE) K/RKL007A electronic support measures/electronic countermeasures (ESM/ECM) pod seen under the J-10B. This pod possibly enables or enhances the J-10B’s ability to autonomously attack electronic targets.



PAF really needs to get its hands on J-10B or J-10C time is being wasted the org number of 36 or a 18 would help.

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## CriticalThought

TOPGUN said:


> PAF really needs to get its hands on J-10B or J-10C time is being wasted the org number of 36 or a 18 would help.



I still say increase the capacity of Thunder's production line and make it potent enough to face all threats. Latest model jets should be bought only as quality drivers.


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## syed_yusuf

PAF should go for a customized version of FC-31 as JF31 with all bells and whistles. if we take it seriously we can have a 5th gen fighter in 5-7 years from now

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## fatman17

@bilal @TK @Oscar 
Can someone shed some light on PAF SEAD assets. l know all our vipers are capable of firing the AGM88 HARM but the US never approved the sale, however JANES claims that both the AIM7 Sparrow and the AGM88 HARM are in PAF inventory but I think they are mistaken and that's why PAF went for the MR1 HARM a copy of the US missile. Which aircraft in our inventory are compatible to use this missile. What about the Chinese YJ91 AGM. Please comment.


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## SQ8

fatman17 said:


> @bilal @TK @Oscar
> Can someone shed some light on PAF SEAD assets. l know all our vipers are capable of firing the AGM88 HARM but the US never approved the sale, however JANES claims that both the AIM7 Sparrow and the AGM88 HARM are in PAF inventory but I think they are mistaken and that's why PAF went for the MR1 HARM a copy of the US missile. Which aircraft in our inventory are compatible to use this missile. What about the Chinese YJ91 AGM. Please comment.


Mirages, specifically two non publicly upgraded sq at rafiqui and masroor- MAR-1 using in house RHAWS

JF-17 to assist with Chinese arm in the future.

F-16s to remain focused on OCA and critical AD, mostly mirages & F-7s and JF-17s on CAS to limit expected attrition 
in those high risk missions


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## khanasifm

khanasifm said:


> AFM August 2017
> 
> The Pakistan Air Force has been highly effective against terrorists in Pakistan’s FATA region and intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance assets have been at the forefront of its combat operations, as Alan Warnes explains.
> 
> Any thing new ??

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## fatman17



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## fatman17

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/899253820211040257Watch

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## his5850

What is the PAF 10 year future plan?? From ACM sohail aman interview I am getting the idea that PAF next plane will be 5th generation.

what you thoughts guys??


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## Alpha BeeTee

his5850 said:


> What is the PAF 10 year future plan?? From ACM sohail aman interview I am getting the idea that PAF next plane will be 5th generation.
> 
> what you thoughts guys??


PAF's focus is on jf17 ( perhaps block 3) purely.
For 4.5th generation requirments perhaps ToT of J10 etc from China but chances are slim for such an accusation.
Project Azm is very far off as of now.
So the future looks to be just ok.


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## his5850

Alpha BeeTee said:


> PAF's focus is on jf17 ( perhaps block 3) purely.
> For 4.5th generation requirments perhaps ToT of J20 etc from China but chances are slim for such an accusation.
> Project Azm is very far off as of now.
> So the future looks to be just ok.


JF-17 blok 3 is 4.5 gen plane but J-20 is 5th gen 
as far as tot is PAF going with J-20 or J-31 or with Turkey TAI TFX


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## CriticalThought

fatman17 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/899253820211040257Watch



Viper vs. some unknown twin engine aircraft? Is this from a PAF exercise? An actual border skirmish? Or just some footage from somewhere else? The two planes are at too leisurely a pace for this to be real combat. Looks like an exercise, to me.






EDIT: Another thing to note is the twin engine aircraft loses a lot of speed in the turn, allowing the viper to close the gap considerably. From there, the Viper can rely on its excellent sustained turn rate and the enemy has to make ONE mistake, he'll be roast turkey. As a matter of fact, if this viper were armed with HOBS + HMD/S, the twin engine would already be roast turkey once the gap was closed.

Also, if the viper were equipped with a 5th gen WVRAM, things wouldn't proceed to the turning phase. It would have taken a shot almost as soon as it got on the six.

Just goes on to show we really need 5th gen WVRAM, and HOBS + HMD/S


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## Avicenna

CriticalThought said:


> Viper vs. some unknown twin engine aircraft? Is this from a PAF exercise? An actual border skirmish? Or just some footage from somewhere else? The two planes are at too leisurely a pace for this to be real combat. Looks like an exercise, to me.
> 
> View attachment 419719
> 
> 
> EDIT: Another thing to note is the twin engine aircraft loses a lot of speed in the turn, allowing the viper to close the gap considerably. From there, the Viper can rely on its excellent sustained turn rate and the enemy has to make ONE mistake, he'll be roast turkey. As a matter of fact, if this viper were armed with HOBS + HMD/S, the twin engine would already be roast turkey once the gap was closed.
> 
> Also, if the viper were equipped with a 5th gen WVRAM, things wouldn't proceed to the turning phase. It would have taken a shot almost as soon as it got on the six.
> 
> Just goes on to show we really need 5th gen WVRAM, and HOBS + HMD/S



It looks like a Mig-29. Could be from any number of scenarios.

For all we know its a US operated Mig-29 out of Nevada.


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## HRK

CriticalThought said:


> Viper vs. some unknown twin engine aircraft?


MiG-29 


CriticalThought said:


> Is this from a PAF exercise?


NO 


CriticalThought said:


> An actual border skirmish?


No


CriticalThought said:


> Or just some footage from somewhere else?


obviously ....

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## fatman17

#PAF T-33 code name: BlueBird-166 20th August 1971 #RashidMinhasShaheed https://t.co/EZrh4Rd3PC

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## fatman17

Yu-8 rocket assisted torpedo https://t.co/q7olK56g3I


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## fatman17

YJ-12 supersonic AShM https://t.co/xzjvu3wQL3


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## fatman17

J16

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## fatman17

Just a nice pic

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## his5850

in the wake of Trump new speech it is time for Pakistan to work even harder on JF-17 and forget about F-16 because are US sanctions are coming soon


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## fatman17

Time to invest in the J16

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## CriticalThought

fatman17 said:


> Time to invest in the J16
> View attachment 420422



Is it available for export without restrictions?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

CriticalThought said:


> Is it available for export without restrictions?


Probably not. Even if the Russians don't mind seeing Pakistan fly Flankers, they'd prefer those Flankers be built in Russia.

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## Thunder.Storm

For jf bl 3 engine thrust is 105 kn. And paf 5th gen will design its 5th gen around ws-15 enging or u can say mini j-20 with single engine and paf modified one.


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## fatman17

CriticalThought said:


> Is it available for export without restrictions?


Chinese 100%

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## CriticalThought

fatman17 said:


> Chinese 100%



Hmmmmm

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) thoughts?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

CriticalThought said:


> Hmmmmm
> 
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) thoughts?


Russia still lays claim to the IP. The Chinese, while shredding most of it, still respect that in regards to export. Otherwise, we would have seen it on AVIC's product catalogue.


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## HRK

fatman17 said:


> Time to invest in the J16
> View attachment 420422



its time to sign deal for Su-35 even for as small number as 12-16 as initial batch.


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## KRAIT

HRK said:


> its time to sign deal for Su-35 even for as small number as 12-16 as initial batch.


Will Russia provide Su-35 with AESA radar?


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## his5850

Thunder.Storm said:


> For jf bl 3 engine thrust is 105 kn. And paf 5th gen will design its 5th gen around ws-15 enging or u can say mini j-20 with single engine and paf modified one.



JF-17 block 3 is not getting a engine but will get aesa radar, helmet mounted display, new avionics and payload



KRAIT said:


> Will Russia provide Su-35 with AESA radar?



there was a news russia wasn't providing AESA radar with Su-35 that's why deal got canceled

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## Thunder.Storm

his5850 said:


> JF-17 block 3 is not getting a engine but will get aesa radar, helmet mounted display, new avionics and payload
> 
> 
> 
> there was a news russia wasn't providing AESA radar with Su-35 that's why deal got canceled


You misunderstood the engine point. Engine will be same one but upgraded.


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## GriffinsRule

Thunder.Storm said:


> You misunderstood the engine point. Engine will be same one but upgraded.



What's the source for this?


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## his5850

Thunder.Storm said:


> You misunderstood the engine point. Engine will be same one but upgraded.



Plz read this link 

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/twitter-q-a-on-jf-17-thunder-program-with-horus-oscar.513417/


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## Readerdefence

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Probably not. Even if the Russians don't mind seeing Pakistan fly Flankers, they'd prefer those Flankers be built in Russia.


Hi just a thought if Pakistan is ready to buy engines supply from Russia through china isn't it possible beside if china is getting su35 they can somehow make Russians to agreed on this 
Just a thought your input will be appreciated 
Thx


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## khanasifm

There was no news just folks making and spreading rumors end of story SUxx, with reference to rejection


----------



## MastanKhan

HRK said:


> its time to sign deal for Su-35 even for as small number as 12-16 as initial batch.



Hi,

Before we do that---can we hang those members who fought vehemently for the F16's on this board---.

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## ghazi52

*
KALLAR KAHAR:* The Badge Award Ceremony of 4th Special Advanced Training Course of Uqaab Force was held at PAF Base Kallar Kahar . Air Marshal Asad Lodhi, Vice Chief of Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force was the chief guest at the occasion.

A total of 262 PAF personnel including 11 officers and 251 airmen successfully completed their rigorous training conducted by the Special Services Wing of Pakistan Air Force. The Chief Guest awarded badges and trophies to the successful personnel who underwent a strenuous and demanding course.

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## Thunder.Storm

GriffinsRule said:


> What's the source for this?


Here is a pdf member @messiach she mentioned somewhere that engine thrust 105 kn for bl3.



Amulet said:


> Pakistan planing a stealth fighter based on J-31 with indigenous and Turkish technologies.





graphican said:


> There as actually another talk that Pakistan is interested in TOT for Xian WS-15, which hinted that probably J-20s are coming, or - may Pakistan's own stealth aircraft will use WS-15s.


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## Ultima Thule

Thunder.Storm said:


> Here is a pdf member @messiach she mentioned somewhere that engine thrust 105 kn for bl3.


He said 98 kn not 105 kn RD93MA


----------



## Thunder.Storm

pakistanipower said:


> He said 98 kn not 105 kn RD93MA







https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/jf-17-thunder-multirole-fighter-thread-7.427560/page-177#post-9630045
@his5850 @GriffinsRule

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## Ultima Thule

Thunder.Storm said:


> View attachment 420550
> 
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/jf-17-thunder-multirole-fighter-thread-7.427560/page-177#post-9630045
> @his5850 @GriffinsRule


speculations by him


----------



## Alpha BeeTee

"PAF 5th gen project is just an attempt to attain ToT of j20/j31 from China with some Turkish flavor."
Right or wrong ?


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Alpha BeeTee said:


> "PAF 5th gen project is just an attempt to attain ToT of j20/j31 from China with some Turkish flavor."
> Right or wrong ?


Sounds like someone who thinks the JF-17 is based on the MiG-21 would say...

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## CriticalThought

pakistanipower said:


> speculations by him



First of all, it is 'she', because she is a lady. Secondly, She is a very senior and highly regarded member of this forum. Please mind you attitude when referring to seniors.


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## The Accountant

pakistanipower said:


> speculations by him


You are talking about Ex PAF person who still has connections ... Few of the members here to whose statement I consider as a source in itself and you are talking about one of them ...


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## Thunder.Storm

I personally think PAF will design a single engine 5th gen fighter around ws-15(A Modern version required for 5th gen fighter). And will develop required technologies with help from turkey and china.


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## Alpha BeeTee

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Sounds like someone who thinks the JF-17 is based on the MiG-21 would say...


Regardless of who says it,don't you think it will be a joint venture like the thunder ?
Or will Paf try to build it 'indigenously' like the Tejas ? If that's the case then it seems pretty far fetched that we would accomplish that even after a decade from now.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Alpha BeeTee said:


> Regardless of who says it,don't you think it will be a joint venture like the thunder ?
> Or will Paf try to build it 'indigenously' like the Tejas ? If that's the case then it seems pretty far fetched that we would accomplish that even after a decade from now.


The reality is that based on the info available, we don't know what this 5th gen program actually is...so the guy saying, "it's an attempt at J-31 ToT with Turkish flavour" is either pushing an unsubstantiated opinion or is fabricating facts. That's why I brought in the JF-17/MiG-21 thing, because it's essentially the same thing - "how do you know?"

Anyways, the PAF ACM said that the 5th gen program is with AvDI in PAC. He also didn't bring up China (yet) and in an April interview said the PAF will work with Turkey in a next-gen fighter. At present the info given is pretty vague and only time will provide structure. Anything else is guesswork, which can be good at times, but is by nature tentative and not fact.

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## Alpha BeeTee

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The reality is that based on the info available, we don't know what this 5th gen program actually is...so the guy saying, "it's an attempt at J-31 ToT with Turkish flavour" is either pushing an unsubstantiated opinion or is fabricating facts. That's why I brought in the JF-17/MiG-21 thing, because it's essentially the same thing - "how do you know?"
> 
> Anyways, the PAF ACM said that the 5th gen program is with AvDI in PAC. He also didn't bring up China (yet) and in an April interview said the PAF will work with Turkey in a next-gen fighter. At present the info given is pretty vague and only time will provide structure. Anything else is guesswork, which can be good at times, but is by nature tentative and not fact.


Yup.
All is vague atm.


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## GriffinsRule

CriticalThought said:


> First of all, it is 'she', because she is a lady. Secondly, She is a very senior and highly regarded member of this forum. Please mind you attitude when referring to seniors.



I would not consider it a valid source, just a word of mouth, speculation or a wish list. Even she said to wait for official word, which means it's not a done deal. Maybe it was an option being looked at by PAF considering the increased payload but probably didn't happen. Else we would have heard it from the various PAF interviews that boast Thunders capabilities at every possible turn, so it's safe to assume we can put that in the 'nice to have' bucket for now


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## Mentee

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Before we do that---can we hang those members who fought vehemently for the F16's on this board---.


sir , they've got no balls of shame

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## Thorough Pro

Another scumbag hiding behind the Great Green

@mods please check his IP

the only thing indigenous about Tejas are the hollow claims, everything else including the engineers come from one of the 37 countries struggling to put that junk together




Alpha BeeTee said:


> Regardless of who says it,don't you think it will be a joint venture like the thunder ?
> Or will Paf try to build it 'indigenously' like the Tejas ? If that's the case then it seems pretty far fetched that we would accomplish that even after a decade from now.


----------



## GriffinsRule

Mentee said:


> sir , they've got no balls of shame



Thank God for those F-16s and their associated DB110 reconnaissance pods that helped save countless Pakistani lives as they enabled us to digitally terrain map FATA and make targeting TTP and other terrorists possible. 

For more information, read the August's Air Forces Monthly article on PAF's ISR efforts.

In the interim I will let the ill-wishers of Pakistani armed forces hang themselves

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## haroonn

I have a question about the new PAF's AW-139 helicopters. News reported they were part of No. 80 SAR squadron. Any idea where is it based? Is it raised for PAF Bholari currently being built?


----------



## Alpha BeeTee

Thorough Pro said:


> Another scumbag hiding behind the Great Green
> 
> @mods please check his IP
> 
> the only thing indigenous about Tejas are the hollow claims, everything else including the engineers come from one of the 37 countries struggling to put that junk together


O beta ! Haath hola rakho thora neechay ao.
Baat samajh anay say pehlay react nahi kartay.


----------



## Mentee

GriffinsRule said:


> In the interim I will let the ill-wishers of Pakistani armed forces hang themselves



Amin to that


----------



## MastanKhan

GriffinsRule said:


> Thank God for those F-16s and their associated DB110 reconnaissance pods that helped save countless Pakistani lives as they enabled us to digitally terrain map FATA and make targeting TTP and other terrorists possible.
> 
> For more information, read the August's Air Forces Monthly article on PAF's ISR efforts.
> 
> In the interim I will let the ill-wishers of Pakistani armed forces hang themselves




Sir,

The blue uniform that you wore---the generals wearing that uniform---many of them were and are sellouts---sold pakistan to the highest bidder---.


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## fatman17

The delivery of the first batch (1701-1704) could start in late 2017.
Myanmar

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## messiach

@GriffinsRule @Thunder.Storm 
I gather PAF is to stick with RD93. This i a twitter Q&A session with some insider source.

You are aware these turbines are twin spool eg RD-series 3 , WS13/e/j with 2 X L-H compressor-turbines.
This is pretty much standard for this range. Most chinese effort is based on russian designs and this goes for WS engines aswell eg. the fan-Lp compressor-turbine assembly for WS series 10, 13 incld. bypass duct has been tested on russian RD engines with russian assistance. Technically they are modified russian turbines. Power to thrust ratio is a nonlinear relationship but my estimate is 105kn.

You can quote me.



Thunder.Storm said:


> Here is a pdf member @messiach she mentioned somewhere that engine thrust 105 kn for bl3.

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## fatman17

PAF women pilot Rabia

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## CriticalThought

messiach said:


> @GriffinsRule @Thunder.Storm
> I gather PAF is to stick with RD93. This i a twitter Q&A session with some insider source.
> 
> You are aware these turbines are twin spool eg RD-series 3 , WS13/e/j with 2 X L-H compressor-turbines.
> This is pretty much standard for this range. Most chinese effort is based on russian designs and this goes for WS engines aswell eg. the fan-Lp compressor-turbine assembly for WS series 10, 13 incld. bypass duct has been tested on russian RD engines with russian assistance. Technically they are modified russian turbines. Power to thrust ratio is a nonlinear relationship but my estimate is 105kn.
> 
> You can quote me.



Are you saying Block 3 will have WS-13 which is really just a modified RD-93?


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## Windjammer

A Good underside study of PAF's new toy.

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## Talon

Windjammer said:


> A Good underside study of PAF's new toy.
> 
> View attachment 421460


F16 pilots flying a helicopter...savage.

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## CriticalThought

Hodor said:


> F16 pilots flying a helicopter...savage.



I am personally wary of PAF trying to branch out into too many directions. Mr MastanKhan posted a video about the Luftwaffe's folly of trying to be everything at once. I think that is a good lesson to learn. There should be a high level planning body at the top to coordinate the efforts of air warfare with jets, commercial/civil aviation, helis, drones, and space, but both tactical and strategic execution should be performed by separate entities with cross-pollination in the form of research seminars, focus groups, and even secondment. But trying to be everywhere at once is not going to be feasible.


----------



## Talon

CriticalThought said:


> I am personally wary of PAF trying to branch out into too many directions. Mr MastanKhan posted a video about the Luftwaffe's folly of trying to be everything at once. I think that is a good lesson to learn. There should be a high level planning body at the top to coordinate the efforts of air warfare with jets, commercial/civil aviation, helis, drones, and space, but both tactical and strategic execution should be performed by separate entities with cross-pollination in the form of research seminars, focus groups, and even secondment. But trying to be everywhere at once is not going to be feasible.


Rotation is a normal thing in AF...no need to worry.


----------



## messiach

Thi_s is extreme over-simplification. _
However your Q has a serious background. Not undermining china, it was the _Russian help_ that was crucially critical. We have therefore shown sense and extended an olive branch to russian in-terms of using RD engines therefore providing business to russians and keeping them engaged in the project & _possible future projects_. Russians have therefore supervised changes in their 70's RD turbofan. This move has diplomatic connotations. We definitely need russian assistance as the international diplomatic scene unfolds against us. I am away this week now.


CriticalThought said:


> Are you saying Block 3 will have WS-13 which is really just a modified RD-93?

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

messiach said:


> Thi_s is extreme over-simplification. _
> However your Q has a serious background. Not undermining china, it was the _Russian help_ that was crucially critical. We have therefore shown sense and extended an olive branch to russian in-terms of using RD engines therefore providing business to russians and keeping them engaged in the project & _possible future projects_. Russians have therefore supervised changes in their 70's RD turbofan. This move has diplomatic connotations. We definitely need russian assistance as the international diplomatic scene unfolds against us. I am away this week now.


It's worth noting that even the current PAF CAS, ACM Sohail Aman, explicitly identified Russia as an option for any third fighter platform (to complement the JF-17 and F-16) should the PAF embark on that route. 

_Pakistan definitely has to induct new aircraft. We have both Chinese and Russian options._

http://www.bolnarratives.com/two-fronts-one-mission/

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## Thunder.Storm

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It's worth noting that even the current PAF CAS, ACM Sohail Aman, explicitly identified Russia as an option for any third fighter platform (to complement the JF-17 and F-16) should the PAF embark on that route.
> 
> _Pakistan definitely has to induct new aircraft. We have both Chinese and Russian options._
> 
> http://www.bolnarratives.com/two-fronts-one-mission/


For example which fighter?


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Thunder.Storm said:


> For example which fighter?


Not known.


----------



## Thunder.Storm

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Not known.


Make a possible guess


----------



## Raider 21

MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> 
> The blue uniform that you wore---the generals wearing that uniform---many of them were and are sellouts---sold pakistan to the highest bidder---.


Shit....I was actually thinking of and was advised to wear that uniform for a career......


----------



## ziaulislam

Thunder.Storm said:


> Make a possible guess


both mig29 and su 30 will be available
question is sub systems availability and indian pressure


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## Thorough Pro

The only thing Indian pressure can do is act on their Kegel muscle and would last only as long as they can hold their pee, rest NO ONE gives a ****, money talks. 



ziaulislam said:


> both mig29 and su 30 will be available
> question is sub systems availability and indian pressure


----------



## ziaulislam

Thorough Pro said:


> The only thing Indian pressure can do is act on their Kegel muscle and would last only as long as they can hold their pee, rest NO ONE gives a ****, money talks.


exactly money talks,
as soon as russia throw us something india would offer a bigger deal. and they will troll russia, they have a very very long shopping list even if they dont buy anything in the end


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## araz

ziaulislam said:


> exactly money talks,
> as soon as russia through us something india would offer a bigger deal. and they will troll russia, they have a very very long shopping list even if they dont buy anything in the end


Once relations pick up and we can be assured of a better supply line of spares The Red bear can sell to both countries irrespective of how big a list one has as against the other. The US is doing it and France is doing it. So why should they not. It makes perfect monetory sense to supply arms to whosoever wants it as long as they have money to pay.
A

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## Thorough Pro

It's a myth created by indian trolls, no country has limitless resources to keep throwing big arms purchase deals jus to create problems for Pak.



ziaulislam said:


> exactly money talks,
> as soon as russia throw us something india would offer a bigger deal. and they will troll russia, they have a very very long shopping list even if they dont buy anything in the end

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## fatman17

"It's been four decades, not a day goes by that I don't miss him" Mother of Rashid Minhas
#PakistanZindabad 
#TributeToRashidMinhas https://t.co/23Mn1yUbZ6

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## fatman17



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## redgriffin

CriticalThought said:


> I am personally wary of PAF trying to branch out into too many directions. Mr MastanKhan posted a video about the Luftwaffe's folly of trying to be everything at once. I think that is a good lesson to learn. There should be a high level planning body at the top to coordinate the efforts of air warfare with jets, commercial/civil aviation, helis, drones, and space, but both tactical and strategic execution should be performed by separate entities with cross-pollination in the form of research seminars, focus groups, and even secondment. But trying to be everywhere at once is not going to be feasible.


CSAR assets. PAF has been operating helis since the sixties, even before Army Aviation iirc.

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## CriticalThought

redgriffin said:


> CSAR assets. PAF has been operating helis since the sixties, even before Army Aviation iirc.



Sir, the potential manufacture of TAI-129 is also supposed to be under Kamra. That is what I mean by branching off into too many directions.


----------



## Rafael

A good read. Didn't know where to post it.

*Taking Airpower for Granted: A Smart Bomb Story*

https://warontherocks.com/2017/08/taking-airpower-for-granted-a-smart-bomb-story/

@MastanKhan @Oscar @Dazzler

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## Chak Bamu

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 422008



This is how our forces make us proud.

I still thank PAF for not allowing Kargil misadventure to escalate into full-fledged war. It was smart of them to do so. Those were the darkest times with sanctions and all. Today's PAF is different and more capable.

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## CriticalThought

Chak Bamu said:


> This is how our forces make us proud.
> 
> I still thank PAF for not allowing Kargil misadventure to escalate into full-fledged war. It was smart of them to do so. Those were the darkest times with sanctions and all. Today's PAF is different and more capable.



Battles are won and lost in the planning. The man who chooses his battles wisely, wins every battle.

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## fatman17

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/903255031805353984Please note Friday 8pm 24 news channel

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## MastanKhan

Chak Bamu said:


> This is how our forces make us proud.
> 
> I still thank PAF for not allowing Kargil misadventure to escalate into full-fledged war. It was smart of them to do so. Those were the darkest times with sanctions and all. Today's PAF is different and more capable.



Sir,

Get out of your deceits and lies----Paf had no aircraft to fight a war---. It was incapable to make a fight---.

So---stop lying blatantly and shamelessly.



Rafael said:


> A good read. Didn't know where to post it.
> 
> *Taking Airpower for Granted: A Smart Bomb Story*
> 
> https://warontherocks.com/2017/08/taking-airpower-for-granted-a-smart-bomb-story/
> 
> @MastanKhan @Oscar @Dazzler



Hi,

If the general stated that it was easier---then indeed it is easier---. The writer just wanted to bullsh-it his way into writing an article---.

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## SQ8

MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> 
> Get out of your deceits and lies----Paf had no aircraft to fight a war---. It was incapable to make a fight---.
> 
> So---stop lying blatantly and shamelessly.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> If the general stated that it was easier---then indeed it is easier---. The writer just wanted to bullsh-it his way into writing an article---.


The GBU-10 had a narrow drop zone due to "bang bang" guidance- essentially its control surfaces just went either full left or full right.

The GBU-12 improved upon that by having controlled deflection but still had specific speeds and heights although in the gulf war there were weapons deployed at supersonic speeds as well.

Deploying a weapon outside of its parameters not only reduces accuracy and precision but can also be dangerous to an aircraft (so when ACdre Tufail talks about going to 60k+ in a F-16 when the stated safe height is 55k, he isnt being a badass pilot but is openly violating stated operating safety limits imposed for a reason by the designers and engieers of the airplane- not very smart regardless of how experienced you are)

Each successive weapon has gotten easier to employ , the JDAM of today only requires marking a coordinate either preflight or via the ground mapping mode on a radar. 

But as sophistication has grown, so has different operating procedures and restrictions. Sure, most (USA systems anyway) have much higher tolerances than stated as safe so weapons will still work ok outside of those limits, but that is why training is imperitive to ensure thay procedure is followed that can be adapted in wartime situations rather than being left to improvise on the ground.

That is not to say that the USAF isn't prone to hotdogs or pilots making mistakes, they lost track of nukes for christ's sake! But the size versus the institutionalization of safety and procedure is more indoctrinated compared to the PAF. A more closer analogy is the Israelis with their open procedures but they go through a rather tough selection process that has their pilots being groomed from high school.

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## MastanKhan

Oscar said:


> The GBU-10 had a narrow drop zone due to "bang bang" guidance- essentially its control surfaces just went either full left or full right.
> 
> The GBU-12 improved upon that by having controlled deflection but still had specific speeds and heights although in the gulf war there were weapons deployed at supersonic speeds as well.
> 
> Deploying a weapon outside of its parameters not only reduces accuracy and precision but can also be dangerous to an aircraft (so when ACdre Tufail talks about going to 60k+ in a F-16 when the stated safe height is 55k, he isnt being a badass pilot but is openly violating stated operating safety limits imposed for a reason by the designers and engieers of the airplane- not very smart regardless of how experienced you are)
> 
> Each successive weapon has gotten easier to employ , the JDAM of today only requires marking a coordinate either preflight or via the ground mapping mode on a radar.
> 
> But as sophistication has grown, so has different operating procedures and restrictions. Sure, most (USA systems anyway) have much higher tolerances than stated as safe so weapons will still work ok outside of those limits, but that is why training is imperitive to ensure thay procedure is followed that can be adapted in wartime situations rather than being left to improvise on the ground.
> 
> That is not to say that the USAF isn't prone to hotdogs or pilots making mistakes, they lost track of nukes for christ's sake! But the size versus the institutionalization of safety and procedure is more indoctrinated compared to the PAF. A more closer analogy is the Israelis with their open procedures but they go through a rather tough selection process that has their pilots being groomed from high school.



Hi,

Fighter pilots are like cowboys---. Everyone wants to show off his " quick Draw ".

So---when he flew to 60K---he was checking his endurance and that of the aircraft's as well---and also showing off that " I did it ".

One should also keep in mind the 10-12% margin---.


----------



## Storm Force

The single most important and battle proven weapon in Pakistan is the F16 .

with relations at an all time low with USA And relations between india & USA at a high I am surprised to see no talk or debate about how to

1. Avoid/overcome spares embargoes in a future war or escalation of tension
2. REALISTIC PLAN that is actually feasible financially and diplomatically to replace the F16

I FOR ONE would never wish to have IAF premiere fighter come from nation that did not offer guaranteed support during a conflict . AND in indian case Russian French & Israeli support is almost certainly guaranteed

IMO the F16 will PAF achillies heal .............

YET not a word in this forum ........ its like IT WONT HAPPEN


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## SQ8

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Fighter pilots are like cowboys---. Everyone wants to show off his " quick Draw ".
> 
> So---when he flew to 60K---he was checking his endurance and that of the aircraft's as well---and also showing off that " I did it ".
> 
> One should also keep in mind the 10-12% margin---.


There is arrogance and cowboy attitudes, and there is risking safety- at 50k feet your blood will boil off in case you lose pressurization. 
To top it off,you have a young trainee in the backseat with you, an extremely precious asset that is barely kept flying due to sanctions- and neither of you are wearing pressure suits which means that in case something happens you are both dead along with the multi million dollar aircraft.

Sure, common sense eventually kicked in but its these hot dog moments that get you killed

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## khanasifm

Couple of points

1 looks like no 7, 25 and 27 are only flying refueling probe version of mirages 

2 LIFT k8

3 paf transport Sqns

4 self explanatory

5 ISR c-130 which can also laze gbu so carrier aircraft does not need a ld pod


Lastly 15 sqn flying most of the oldest mirages so it may be the first sqn to convert to jf after f7s/PGS

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## CriticalThought

khanasifm said:


> View attachment 422180
> 
> 
> View attachment 422181
> 
> 
> View attachment 422182
> 
> 
> View attachment 422183
> 
> 
> View attachment 422184
> 
> 
> View attachment 422185
> 
> 
> View attachment 422186
> 
> 
> View attachment 422187
> 
> 
> View attachment 422188
> 
> 
> Couple of points
> 
> 1 looks like no 7, 25 and 27 are only flying refueling probe version of mirages
> 
> 2 LIFT k8
> 
> 3 paf transport Sana
> 
> 4 self explanatory
> 
> 5 ISR c-130 which can also laze gbu so carrier aircraft does not need a ld pod
> 
> 
> Lastly 15 sqn flying most of the oldest mirages so it may be the first sqn to convert to jf after f7s/PGS



Thunder max speed Mach 1.6 confirmed. And they ACTUALLY fly it at that speed


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## Raider 21

CriticalThought said:


> Thunder max speed Mach 1.6 confirmed. *And they ACTUALLY fly it at that speed *


And it seems they land it at that speed too....

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## CriticalThought

Knuckles said:


> And it seems they land it at that speed too....



I am simply over the moon that Alhamdulillah in Pakistan we are making things that can simply tolerate the stresses involved at those speeds and keep working. I *WISH* they would release a video of Thunder breaking the sound barrier. It would be *AWESOME*

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## Chak Bamu

MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> 
> Get out of your deceits and lies----Paf had no aircraft to fight a war---. It was incapable to make a fight---.
> 
> So---stop lying blatantly and shamelessly.



Mastan, tell me where have I lied and what deceit I am in. I would also like to know what makes you think I am being blatant and shameless.

You have an agenda and you spread lies, yes lies because its all hearsay that you bring up. You are obsessed with an idea that a lone weapon system can bring a ten-times more powerful enemy to his knees. You have been challenged many many times, and yet you continue to spread BS. So, for the nth time, please tell us how to defeat an enemy that has an economy 10 times the size of Pakistan's?....... Oh OK, you do not have an answer. Just as I guessed.

You demand that our airforce officers be perfect and not make mistakes. Great... are you perfect? Do you not make mistakes? What makes you think that IAF, that has every conceivable aircraft type and myriad supply chain issues, does not make mistakes? Chiding others is easy. If you were so perfect, you would not spend all your waking hours ranting on various forums. Get a life and get well.

I have far more trust in an institution that works for Pakistan than a lunatic raving and ranting in California....



Storm Force said:


> The single most important and battle proven weapon in Pakistan is the F16 .
> 
> with relations at an all time low with USA And relations between india & USA at a high I am surprised to see no talk or debate about how to
> 
> 1. Avoid/overcome spares embargoes in a future war or escalation of tension
> 2. REALISTIC PLAN that is actually feasible financially and diplomatically to replace the F16
> 
> I FOR ONE would never wish to have IAF premiere fighter come from nation that did not offer guaranteed support during a conflict . AND in indian case Russian French & Israeli support is almost certainly guaranteed
> 
> IMO the F16 will PAF achillies heal .............
> 
> YET not a word in this forum ........ its like IT WONT HAPPEN


We know how to manage the 'Achilles's heel'. We did that in the past, we can do that going forward. There is no embargo as of yet and your glee is a bit premature to say the least.

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## khanasifm

There is option to ignore post from members, use it to enjoy only relevant posts

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## fatman17

Program on PAF Base Minhas 
14 and 16 squadron based along with 3 AWACS squadron 
87 SAR Squadron 
Mix of JF17 Block l and ll. Serial numbers sighted 
150, 214, 217 and 231 so far.

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## fatman17

fatman17 said:


> Program on PAF Base Minhas
> 14 and 16 squadron based along with 3 AWACS squadron
> 87 SAR Squadron
> Mix of JF17 Block l and ll. Serial numbers sighted
> 150, 214, 217 and 231 so far.


143


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## fatman17

fatman17 said:


> 143


History of 14 sqn Tail Choppers being explained


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## HRK

fatman17 said:


> History of 14 sqn Tail Choppers being explained



which channel ...??


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## fatman17

HRK said:


> which channel ...??


24

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## fatman17

fatman17 said:


> History of 14 sqn Tail Choppers being explained


WC Hasan demonstrates rollout and TO. 6 to 8 min reqd per ADA

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## MastanKhan

Chak Bamu said:


> Mastan, tell me where have I lied and what deceit I am in. I would also like to know what makes you think I am being blatant and shameless.
> 
> You have an agenda and you spread lies, yes lies because its all hearsay that you bring up. You are obsessed with an idea that a lone weapon system can bring a ten-times more powerful enemy to his knees. You have been challenged many many times, and yet you continue to spread BS. So, for the nth time, please tell us how to defeat an enemy that has an economy 10 times the size of Pakistan's?....... Oh OK, you do not have an answer. Just as I guessed.
> 
> You demand that our airforce officers be perfect and not make mistakes. Great... are you perfect? Do you not make mistakes? What makes you think that IAF, that has every conceivable aircraft type and myriad supply chain issues, does not make mistakes? Chiding others is easy. If you were so perfect, you would not spend all your waking hours ranting on various forums. Get a life and get well.
> 
> I have far more trust in an institution that works for Pakistan than a lunatic raving and ranting in California....
> 
> 
> We know how to manage the 'Achilles's heel'. We did that in the past, we can do that going forward. There is no embargo as of yet and your glee is a bit premature to say the least.



Hi,

If the indians worshipped their air force next to their Bhagwans---they would expect the same.

Mistakes are acceptable---but continuous deceptions are an act of treason.

Like---pakistanis hate the U S for sanctions on the F16---why because the Paf lied to the pakistanis---did not tell them the truth---

That the U S already told them that the sanctions were coming and DO NOT INVEST anymore into the F16---that was the late 80's---yet they did---same story again and again---.

Why did the Paf lie to the public and not tell them the truth---why was this hatred against the U S caused by the Paf---.

All the APOLOGISTS of the Paf are in the same category of deceivers---because they justify the Paf's agenda.

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## fatman17

fatman17 said:


> WC Hasan demonstrates rollout and TO. 6 to 8 min reqd per ADA


Lady WC Muniza leads Minhas ATC. 
SD10A definitely operational

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## Chak Bamu

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> If the indians worshipped their air force next to their Bhagwans---they would expect the same.
> 
> Mistakes are acceptable---but continuous deceptions are an act of treason.
> 
> Like---pakistanis hate the U S for sanctions on the F16---why because the Paf lied to the pakistanis---did not tell them the truth---
> 
> That the U S already told them that the sanctions were coming and DO NOT INVEST anymore into the F16---that was the late 80's---yet they did---same story again and again---.
> 
> Why did the Paf lie to the public and not tell them the truth---why was this hatred against the U S caused by the Paf---.
> 
> All the APOLOGISTS of the Paf are in the same category of deceivers---because they justify the Paf's agenda.


1. You live, earn, & pay taxes in USA. The untempered severity of your opinions needs to be moderated by your reality - but it is not. Most posters at PDF are those who live, earn, & pay taxes in Pakistan. They should be, and are more concerned than you. What does it matter to you that PAF does its job or not? Why should anyone care for your unbalanced outbursts?

2. Nobody worships PAF. Get your mind straightened out. You imagination is playing tricks. Maybe you should concentrate more on being a productive member of your society than to obsess about your lop-sided opinions.

3. Payments for F-16s were made by GoP, not PAF. Lay blame with GoP, not PAF. If you can not 'get' it, then it is pointless to talk to you. The fact that you continue to harp about these things proves that you have really lost it. You have no perspective. You are not reliable in what you talk about. You deliberately mix stuff to create a BS narrative.

4. Love or hatred for USA is not based on one issue. It is your unbalanced mind that creates that perception for you. This is totally analogous to your harping about Pakistan not buying M2K or Rafales. It never occurs to you that it would be beyond Idiotic for any regime, democratic or dictatorial, to opt for 2 high-end systems while Pakistan's HDIs are in the gutter. Your mind is poisoned due to your own agenda. You are not a reliable poster in anything you say relating to PAF, or Pakistan in general. You keep uttering falsehoods to satisfy your ego.

The only reason why I do tangle with your insufferable personality, despite senior posters advising me to not do so, is because you are affecting new Pakistani posters with your mind-set. Cynicism is a disease. You are distributing it indiscriminately.



khanasifm said:


> There is option to ignore post from members, use is to enjoy only relevant posts


Thanks for the advice, bro. But while you and other posters have put Mastan on your ignore list, his idiocies go unchallenged and younger posters are getting affected. Someone has to call his BS out in public.

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## HRK

fatman17 said:


> 24



thnx again ....
===============
members enjoy the show ....

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## Zarvan

Program about JF-17 on News One right now

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## MastanKhan

Chak Bamu said:


> 1. You live, earn, & pay taxes in USA. The untempered severity of your opinions needs to be moderated by your reality - but it is not. Most posters at PDF are those who live, earn, & pay taxes in Pakistan. They should be, and are more concerned than you. What does it matter to you that PAF does its job or not? Why should anyone care for your unbalanced outbursts?
> 
> 2. Nobody worships PAF. Get your mind straightened out. You imagination is playing tricks. Maybe you should concentrate more on being a productive member of your society than to obsess about your lop-sided opinions.
> 
> 3. Payments for F-16s were made by GoP, not PAF. Lay blame with GoP, not PAF. If you can not 'get' it, then it is pointless to talk to you. The fact that you continue to harp about these things proves that you have really lost it. You have no perspective. You are not reliable in what you talk about. You deliberately mix stuff to create a BS narrative.
> 
> 4. Love or hatred for USA is not based on one issue. It is your unbalanced mind that creates that perception for you. This is totally analogous to your harping about Pakistan not buying M2K or Rafales. It never occurs to you that it would be beyond Idiotic for any regime, democratic or dictatorial, to opt for 2 high-end systems while Pakistan's HDIs are in the gutter. Your mind is poisoned due to your own agenda. You are not a reliable poster in anything you say relating to PAF, or Pakistan in general. You keep uttering falsehoods to satisfy your ego.
> 
> The only reason why I do tangle with your insufferable personality, despite senior posters advising me to not do so, is because you are affecting new Pakistani posters with your mind-set. Cynicism is a disease. You are distributing it indiscriminately.
> 
> 
> Thanks for the advice, bro. But while you and other posters have put Mastan on your ignore list, his idiocies go unchallenged and younger posters are getting affected. Someone has to call his BS out in public.



Hi,

I pay more in charity in pakistan every month than some of your yearly taxes.

So don't dwell on that idea.



Chak Bamu said:


> It never occurs to you that it would be beyond Idiotic for any regime, democratic or dictatorial, to opt for 2 high-end systems while Pakistan's HDIs are in the gutter. Your mind is poisoned due to your own agenda. You are not a reliable poster in anything you say relating to PAF, or Pakistan in general. You keep uttering falsehoods to satisfy your ego.
> 
> The only reason why I do tangle with your insufferable personality, despite senior posters advising me to not do so, is because you are affecting new Pakistani posters with your mind-set. Cynicism is a disease. You are distributing it indiscriminately.
> .



Hi,

Very poor level of intellect young man---very poor level of intellect---but as you are hitting your head against me---that is a good thing---because one of these days---you will wake up and understand what I am saying---.

Right now---your level of understanding has not reached that plateau.

Diversity has been the norm for thousands of years to survive---keep stability and win against odds---.

Your sarcasm & rhetoric cannot change the historical realities of nations living under duress---.

Stop banging your head against me---for the nation of pakistan---open the eyes of your brain and listen to understand what is being said and not what you want to hear---.

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## khanasifm

26 pekhawar

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## fatman17

Air Platforms

Turkey addresses pilot shortage

Kerry Herschelman - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

31 August 2017

The Turkish government issued a new decree on 25 August requiring civil aviation pilots to return to the Turkish Air Force Command (TAFC) in an attempt to bridge a serious shortage in combat pilots.

The shortage has become more acute as a result of the ongoing massive purges of the Turkish Armed Forces (TSK) and of pilots after the 2016 failed coup.

One of the measures Turkey has reportedly taken to address the pilot shortage is to request Pakistan to send three F-16 pilot trainers. However, the US, which supplies F-16s, did not give permission to Turkey to receive Pakistani trainers.

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## denel

fatman17 said:


> Air Platforms
> 
> Turkey addresses pilot shortage
> 
> Kerry Herschelman - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
> 
> 31 August 2017
> 
> The Turkish government issued a new decree on 25 August requiring civil aviation pilots to return to the Turkish Air Force Command (TAFC) in an attempt to bridge a serious shortage in combat pilots.
> 
> The shortage has become more acute as a result of the ongoing massive purges of the Turkish Armed Forces (TSK) and of pilots after the 2016 failed coup.
> 
> One of the measures Turkey has reportedly taken to address the pilot shortage is to request Pakistan to send three F-16 pilot trainers. However, the US, which supplies F-16s, did not give permission to Turkey to receive Pakistani trainers.


Amazing why you need permission to fly jets you have purchased and paid for. was looking for imoji for a middle finger.

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## his5850

khanasifm said:


> 26 pekhawar


why Pakistani media is so useless in Army interviews

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## CriticalThought

denel said:


> Amazing why you need permission to fly jets you have purchased and paid for. was looking for imoji for a middle finger.



I laugh at the Arab Sheiks wasting billions of dollars on F-15s

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## fatman17

his5850 said:


> why Pakistani media is so useless in Army interviews


Don't hire defence experts

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## Khadim e Darul Ehsaan

his5850 said:


> why Pakistani media is so useless in Army interviews



It was better if she did some research and prepare some good questions regarding paf and fighter jets and then took their intervw ,similarly naseem zehra program was better but not excellent, if u remember, mahaaz program , that man did vry good tv program regarding paf

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## fatman17

fatman17 said:


> Air Platforms
> 
> Turkey addresses pilot shortage
> 
> Kerry Herschelman - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
> 
> 31 August 2017
> 
> The Turkish government issued a new decree on 25 August requiring civil aviation pilots to return to the Turkish Air Force Command (TAFC) in an attempt to bridge a serious shortage in combat pilots.
> 
> The shortage has become more acute as a result of the ongoing massive purges of the Turkish Armed Forces (TSK) and of pilots after the 2016 failed coup.
> 
> One of the measures Turkey has reportedly taken to address the pilot shortage is to request Pakistan to send three F-16 pilot trainers. However, the US, which supplies F-16s, did not give permission to Turkey to receive Pakistani trainers.


Commenting on this decision, Erdogan Karakus suggested that the US might want to prevent Pakistani pilots from getting access to the digital terrain-mapping systems which are installed on the modernized F-16 jets possessed by Turkey.

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## Khadim e Darul Ehsaan

CriticalThought said:


> I laugh at the Arab Sheiks wasting billions of dollars on F-15s



We r also a big arm purchasers from amercan side, see f16s , cobra gunships whether previous or current ah1z , even our communication devices came from amerca ,bcz it was our compulsion but now trend is shifting towards china which is gòod in a sense that thy donot impose restrictions as amercans do but i.m quite sure that even today if amerca offers any weapon system from his side we will also start spending billion dollars like arab sheikhs whether we have to take loans for it

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## Avicenna

fatman17 said:


> Air Platforms
> 
> Turkey addresses pilot shortage
> 
> Kerry Herschelman - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
> 
> 31 August 2017
> 
> The Turkish government issued a new decree on 25 August requiring civil aviation pilots to return to the Turkish Air Force Command (TAFC) in an attempt to bridge a serious shortage in combat pilots.
> 
> The shortage has become more acute as a result of the ongoing massive purges of the Turkish Armed Forces (TSK) and of pilots after the 2016 failed coup.
> 
> One of the measures Turkey has reportedly taken to address the pilot shortage is to request Pakistan to send three F-16 pilot trainers. However, the US, which supplies F-16s, did not give permission to Turkey to receive Pakistani trainers.



All the more reason to move on from US systems.

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## CriticalThought

Khadim e Darul Ehsaan said:


> We r also a big arm purchasers from amercan side, see f16s , cobra gunships whether previous or current ah1z , even our communication devices came from amerca ,bcz it was our compulsion but now trend is shifting towards china which is gòod in a sense that thy donot impose restrictions as amercans do but i.m quite sure that even today if amerca offers any weapon system from his side we will also start spending billion dollars like arab sheikhs whether we have to take loans for it



Believe me, we have logically sound reasons for procuring restricted American technology.

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## Avicenna

CriticalThought said:


> Believe me, we have logically sound reasons for procuring restricted American technology.



Its called no other options.

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## CriticalThought

Avicenna said:


> Its called no other options.



It's called shrewd planning.

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## Avicenna

CriticalThought said:


> It's called shrewd planning.



How so?

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## CriticalThought

Avicenna said:


> How so?



I'll leave it at that.

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## Avicenna

CriticalThought said:


> I'll leave it at that.



LOL. OK.

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## MastanKhan

his5850 said:


> why Pakistani media is so useless in Army interviews




Hi,

That is what happens when you send someone who think that they are interviewing GODS---and the interviewer is dumb as a rock---.

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## Chak Bamu

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I pay more in charity in pakistan every month than some of your yearly taxes.
> 
> So don't dwell on that idea.


Nobody here cares about your charity. Keep it if you must use to feel superior to others without knowing what they do, or how much they contribute.

This just illustrates your habit of spewing stuff without knowing a single thing about anything relevant.




MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Very poor level of intellect young man---very poor level of intellect---but as you are hitting your head against me---that is a good thing---because one of these days---you will wake up and understand what I am saying---.



I told you to not 'young man' me. But you do not listen. You are lonely because you never listen to others. The time you spend on forums and the vitriol you spread informs of your circumstances. I pity you.

The immediately obvious thing about your writing is that you love to spread cynicism in the garb of being a realist. You are just a bitter old man who has nothing positive to say. You think I will wake up and understand you? You think you are some sort of prophet of doom who must be listened to? You keep talking about 'need' to buy expensive military hardware when Pakistan's HDI indicators are miserably low. You ARE a prophet of doom, then. But the sort that should be ignored.



MastanKhan said:


> Right now---your level of understanding has not reached that plateau.



What plateau? What are you even talking about? Do you think you have attained some sort of nirvana or something? Many mad-men actually claim that, because megalomania makes them say so. When was the last time you saw a psychiatrist? Have you missed an appointment or two? Because lately you have become even more insufferable than usual.



MastanKhan said:


> Diversity has been the norm for thousands of years to survive---keep stability and win against odds---.



What diversity are you talking about? Diversity of genes, or education, or guns, or crack-pots?

What stability can be had when an unacceptably high percentage of Pakistanis are illiterate or as-good-as-illiterate? If Pakistan follows your prescription, we would be condemned to even lower HDI. You want that in name of survival? You want survival of Pakistanis as illiterate savages? Because this is what your logic leads to - throwing even more money on weapons. Can you comprehend the trade-off involved in spending more on imported expensive weapons systems? Do you have any idea how it works? Who are you to prescribe what Pakistanis need? Did you do a survey or something? Do you know nearly enough about what Pakistanis need?



MastanKhan said:


> Your sarcasm & rhetoric cannot change the historical realities of nations living under duress---.



Have you made a systematic study of nations under duress? You think that lack of weapons creates duress, and not a lack of economic strength? You think duress is all about not buying M2Ks, and Rafales, & what-nots? What makes you think that duress is not about under-funded hospitals & schools? You think that history gives you numbers about literacy and weapons? I would like to know which history (or histories) inform your opinions. I would bet that they are not worth a single bent penny. You think that tossing random phrases like "nations living under duress" lends any credence to your gibberish?



MastanKhan said:


> Stop banging your head against me---for the nation of pakistan---open the eyes of your brain and listen to understand what is being said and not what you want to hear---.



"eyes of your brain" now that is another good one. Does you narcissism have any limits? Do you listen to others? Or do you keep repeating same old gibberish (painfully obvious to most of us here) without realizing what it means?

Let me tell you what your rubbish means:

1. Buy heavy hitting twin engine behemoths that are laden with Western avionics - ignoring that such stuff costs a heck of a lot, and obviously development budget must be cut in order to afford such toys. Lack of improvement or even decline of HDIs means nothing to you. You are blind to the vicious circle of low HDI, low investment, & inferior economic development.

2. PAF is a traitor organization that Pakistanis worship, because it did not buy toys that you wanted them to buy. Well gee wiz - read what I wrote above, except that Pakistan would have even worse HDI had PAF bought those same toys.

3. I am important and everybody should listen to me, because Pakistan would be doomed if you do not listen to me - Hmm.... did you take your medicine yet?

I think I have had enough fun with your idiocies today.

Seriously though, it would be abysmal HDIs that might undo Pakistan, not lack of sophisticated weapons. Now for better HDIs, one has to listen to economists, not self-declared defense analysts. There are only two main principles to look to: A) An established institutional framework (which Pakistan struggles with & is its Achilles' heel) and B) National Ethic of hard work (which Pakistanis can do much of). All strength - economic, military, moral, diplomatic flows from these two factors. Any prescription that interferes with this combination leads to weakness - and I see a lot of that in your gibberish.

Seriously... take you medicine and leave the decision-making to those who are most able. Lay-off the internet for a few days. Call you children and tell them you love them.

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## MastanKhan

Chak Bamu said:


> Nobody here cares about your charity. Keep it if you must use to feel superior to others without knowing what they do, or how much they contribute.
> 
> This just illustrates your habit of spewing stuff without knowing a single thing about anything relevant.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I told you to not 'young man' me. But you do not listen. You are lonely because you never listen to others. The time you spend on forums and the vitriol you spread informs of your circumstances. I pity you.
> 
> The immediately obvious thing about your writing is that you love to spread cynicism in the garb of being a realist. You are just a bitter old man who has nothing positive to say. You think I will wake up and understand you? You think you are some sort of prophet of doom who must be listened to? You keep talking about 'need' to buy expensive military hardware when Pakistan's HDI indicators are miserably low. You ARE a prophet of doom, then. But the sort that should be ignored.
> 
> 
> 
> What plateau? What are you even talking about? Do you think you have attained some sort of nirvana or something? Many mad-men actually claim that, because megalomania makes them say so. When was the last time you saw a psychiatrist? Have you missed an appointment or two? Because lately you have become even more insufferable than usual.
> 
> 
> 
> What diversity are you talking about? Diversity of genes, or education, or guns, or crack-pots?
> 
> What stability can be had when an unacceptably high percentage of Pakistanis are illiterate or as-good-as-illiterate? If Pakistan follows your prescription, we would be condemned to even lower HDI. You want that in name of survival? You want survival of Pakistanis as illiterate savages? Because this is what your logic leads to - throwing even more money on weapons. Can you comprehend the trade-off involved in spending more on imported expensive weapons systems? Do you have any idea how it works? Who are you to prescribe what Pakistanis need? Did you do a survey or something? Do you know nearly enough about what Pakistanis need?
> 
> 
> 
> Have you made a systematic study of nations under duress? You think that lack of weapons creates duress, and not a lack of economic strength? You think duress is all about not buying M2Ks, and Rafales, & what-nots? What makes you think that duress is not about under-funded hospitals & schools? You think that history gives you numbers about literacy and weapons? I would like to know which history (or histories) inform your opinions. I would bet that they are not worth a single bent penny. You think that tossing random phrases like "nations living under duress" lends any credence to your gibberish?
> 
> 
> 
> "eyes of your brain" now that is another good one. Does you narcissism have any limits? Do you listen to others? Or do you keep repeating same old gibberish (painfully obvious to most of us here) without realizing what it means?
> 
> Let me tell you what your rubbish means:
> 
> 1. Buy heavy hitting twin engine behemoths that are laden with Western avionics - ignoring that such stuff costs a heck of a lot, and obviously development budget must be cut in order to afford such toys. Lack of improvement or even decline of HDIs means nothing to you. You are blind to the vicious circle of low HDI, low investment, & inferior economic development.
> 
> 2. PAF is a traitor organization that Pakistanis worship, because it did not buy toys that you wanted them to buy. Well gee wiz - read what I wrote above, except that Pakistan would have even worse HDI had PAF bought those same toys.
> 
> 3. I am important and everybody should listen to me, because Pakistan would be doomed if you do not listen to me - Hmm.... did you take your medicine yet?
> 
> I think I have had enough fun with your idiocies today.
> 
> Seriously though, it would be abysmal HDIs that might undo Pakistan, not lack of sophisticated weapons. Now for better HDIs, one has to listen to economists, not self-declared defense analysts. There are only two main principles to look to: A) An established institutional framework (which Pakistan struggles with & is its Achilles' heel) and B) National Ethic of hard work (which Pakistanis can do much of). All strength - economic, military, moral, diplomatic flows from these two factors. Any prescription that interferes with this combination leads to weakness - and I see a lot of that in your gibberish.
> 
> Seriously... take you medicine and leave the decision-making to those who are most able. Lay-off the internet for a few days. Call you children and tell them you love them.



Hi,

People who need it haven't complained about it---neither the poor---nor the students---nor those who needed surgery---or money for wedding of their daughter or help buying medicine---maybe my one month donation was more than your yearly or maybe two year tax added---or did you even pay any taxes---if you did not---my apologies---I won't compete then.

Focus on defense needs young man---defense needs---so much vitriol that you have poured---so much poison---is not good.

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## Raider 21

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> People who need it haven't complained about it---neither the poor---nor the students---nor those who needed surgery---or money for wedding of their daughter or help buying medicine---maybe my one month donation was more than your yearly or maybe two year tax added---or did you even pay any taxes---if you did not---my apologies---I won't compete then.
> 
> Focus on defense needs young man---defense needs---*so much vitriol that you have poured*---so much poison---is not good.


Fight fire with fire boss....

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## CriticalThought

Knuckles said:


> Fight fire with fire boss....



Bad idea to egg him on. His criticism isn't constructive. He needs to understand this and stop it.

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## fatman17

The latest image (September 2017) indicated that since early 2017 a J-20A prototype has been fitted with two indigenous WS-10X turbofan engines featuring stealth nozzles with saw tooth edges, suggesting the Chinese engine technology has become mature enough to finally have the Russian engines replaced.

- Last Updated 9/3/17

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## Chak Bamu

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> People who need it haven't complained about it---neither the poor---nor the students---nor those who needed surgery---or money for wedding of their daughter or help buying medicine---maybe my one month donation was more than your yearly or maybe two year tax added---or did you even pay any taxes---if you did not---my apologies---I won't compete then.
> 
> Focus on defense needs young man---defense needs---so much vitriol that you have poured---so much poison---is not good.


Again, you are nobody to tell me any of the above. Yes I pay taxes, & yes I give a proportion of my income in charity, & yes I volunteer my time. I also try to deal with cynics like yourself, and view it as public service. I am glad we got it over with, & I hope that this never comes up again. But having read your posts for more than a decade, I think you would find a way to bring it up again somehow.

You do not live in Pakistan & so do not know what intelligentsia thinks, or what students aspire to being, or what taxpayers feel. Most of what you say is made up of coarse generalizations (except some technical stuff), and you do not realize how off the mark you are most of the time. That is why most senior posters hv put you on their ignore list. Since most ppl do not argue with you, in your ignorance you feel that everyone agrees with your gibberish relating to PAF, M2K, Rafales, etc...

Lately you hv become even more arrogant & insufferable. You quoted one of the serious members and said some nasty personal stuff. The gentleman concerned has put you on ignore list, so he does not know that you hv talked rubbish about him. So I thought I would do the honors instead.

When I was moderating, I would warn ppl to be civil to you. You had your opinions, but you were not this arrogant & insufferable back then. Something has really changed and it is definitely for the worst.

If you could get any idea of the above, you would not be complaining of vitriol coming from me.

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## Chak Bamu

CriticalThought said:


> Bad idea to egg him on. His criticism isn't constructive. He needs to understand this and stop it.


He really needs to check himself & how he interacts with others. A bit of humility never hurt anyone.

Besides, being on many ignore lists makes him feel superior in his ignorance. Someone has to tell him to dial it down a bit.

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## Chak Bamu

fatman17 said:


> The latest image (September 2017) indicated that since early 2017 a J-20A prototype has been fitted with two indigenous WS-10X turbofan engines featuring stealth nozzles with saw tooth edges, suggesting the Chinese engine technology has become mature enough to finally have the Russian engines replaced.
> 
> - Last Updated 9/3/17
> View attachment 422906


Thanks for posting this. I had a bet with Dr. Bashir at ITU that Chinese engines would be ready for mass scale deployment within a year. This would go some way in convincing him.

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## fatman17

Chak Bamu said:


> Thanks for posting this. I had a bet with Dr. Bashir at ITU that Chinese engines would be ready for mass scale deployment within a year. This would go some way in convincing him.


The Chinese are moving forward faster than the west. Will catch up with the west in 5 years esp in quality engine manufacturing

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## CriticalThought

Chak Bamu said:


> Thanks for posting this. I had a bet with Dr. Bashir at ITU that Chinese engines would be ready for mass scale deployment within a year. This would go some way in convincing him.



Sir, did you manage to get hold of that report?

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## Chak Bamu

CriticalThought said:


> Sir, did you manage to get hold of that report?


Its Eid days buddy. I have yet to ascertain if Dr. Bashir would allow it to be shared here. I do not expect ground shattering revelations, since the perspective is not technical but strategic.

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## Chak Bamu

fatman17 said:


> The Chinese are moving forward faster than the west. Will catch up with the west in 5 years esp in quality engine manufacturing


Yes sir. But to produce something like EJ-200 might take a bit longer. TWR of Chinese engines is not better than Russian engines, it seems.

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## fatman17

The US government has denied a request by Turkey to recruit F-16 instructors from Pakistan in order to conduct in-house training of more pilots for the Turkish Air Force. According to the contract agreed when the F-16s were sold, Ankara needs to request permission from Washington if it is to order a third party to conduct maintenance or training with the aircraft, leaving Turkey with the only option of sending trainee pilots to the US for such training, after Washington further refused to send its pilots to Turkey. One of the reasons for being reported is that the majority of US jet pilots are already on active duty conducting missions against Islamic State militants in Iraq and Syria, while cynics may point to the recent dip in relations between Turkey and its NATO allies as potential cause for the denial. Turkey’s low manpower problem stems from an ongoing military and civil service purge following last year’s attempted coup against the government of Recep Tayyip Erdogan. During the thwarted putsch, 25 coup pilots flew with F-16 jets and 11 of them bombed strategic sites, including its Parliament.

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## CriticalThought

Grant Turkish citizenship to Pakistani pilots. One nation, one fight.

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## MastanKhan

Chak Bamu said:


> Again, you are nobody to tell me any of the above. Yes I pay taxes, & yes I give a proportion of my income in charity, & yes I volunteer my time. I also try to deal with cynics like yourself, and view it as public service. I am glad we got it over with, & I hope that this never comes up again. But having read your posts for more than a decade, I think you would find a way to bring it up again somehow.
> 
> You do not live in Pakistan & so do not know what intelligentsia thinks, or what students aspire to being, or what taxpayers feel. Most of what you say is made up of coarse generalizations (except some technical stuff), and you do not realize how off the mark you are most of the time. That is why most senior posters hv put you on their ignore list. Since most ppl do not argue with you, in your ignorance you feel that everyone agrees with your gibberish relating to PAF, M2K, Rafales, etc...
> 
> Lately you hv become even more arrogant & insufferable. You quoted one of the serious members and said some nasty personal stuff. The gentleman concerned has put you on ignore list, so he does not know that you hv talked rubbish about him. So I thought I would do the honors instead.
> 
> When I was moderating, I would warn ppl to be civil to you. You had your opinions, but you were not this arrogant & insufferable back then. Something has really changed and it is definitely for the worst.
> 
> If you could get any idea of the above, you would not be complaining of vitriol coming from me.




Hi,

You can shut your eyes close your ears or put someone on ignore list---but then in your spare time---read the history of the destruction of the muslim empire by Chengiz Khan---.

Learned educated influential people over there also put those on the ignore list---whose message they did not like---there is nothing left of their civilization and history---only that they existed---and then they were wiped out.

So---it does not surprise me a tad bit.

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## Chak Bamu

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> You can shut your eyes close your ears or put someone on ignore list---but then in your spare time---read the history of the destruction of the muslim empire by Chengiz Khan---.
> 
> Learned educated influential people over there also put those on the ignore list---whose message they did not like---there is nothing left of their civilization and history---only that they existed---and then they were wiped out.
> 
> So---it does not surprise me a tad bit.



Assumptions galore.

You are assuming that:

1. I am ignorant of the history of Mongols. I am not ignorant of the said history. I think your mind can only comprehend black & white and therefore you come up with stark examples. It costs you nothing to do so. But were it up to someone to implement your prescriptions, it would cost a lot to people in Pakistan. Frankly, any nation that has abysmal HDI would likely be considered closer to Chengiz Khan's Mongols. On that score, maybe Pakistan is qualifies to be called Mongolia. You, O great general may lead Pakistan to battle & glory - NOT

You keep quoting the example of Mongols. Are you OK? I mean you do not understand the most obvious & comical facets of your own tales.

In case you think Indians are analogous to Mongols, then you are seriously deluded. They have much better institutional frame work. Their army has never had the gall to dictate or overthrow the civilian government. You came up with the example of Mongols a few days ago too. Can you not comprehend that your example falls flat on all counts?

It is the ossification of thought, such as yours, that causes countries to lose their edge. Your ideas got fixed decades back and the world has moved on.

Nobody wants to occupy Pakistan or to destroy it. It is Pakistanis themselves that are doing a great job of it. All thanks to people like you that thought more of weapons than people.


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## ziaulislam

fatman17 said:


> Air Platforms
> 
> Turkey addresses pilot shortage
> 
> Kerry Herschelman - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
> 
> 31 August 2017
> 
> The Turkish government issued a new decree on 25 August requiring civil aviation pilots to return to the Turkish Air Force Command (TAFC) in an attempt to bridge a serious shortage in combat pilots.
> 
> The shortage has become more acute as a result of the ongoing massive purges of the Turkish Armed Forces (TSK) and of pilots after the 2016 failed coup.
> 
> One of the measures Turkey has reportedly taken to address the pilot shortage is to request Pakistan to send three F-16 pilot trainers. However, the US, which supplies F-16s, did not give permission to Turkey to receive Pakistani trainers.


And hence why one shouldn't invest in f16s.even though it was way cheaper option as compared to mirage2000. This was true back in 1980s. Now PAF is stuck with f16s so i wont blame them for working on it
From what i am seeing in other branches of armed forces. I believe had there been no sanctions or clear offer from china we wouldn't have had jf 17

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## ziaulislam

CriticalThought said:


> I laugh at the Arab Sheiks wasting billions of dollars on F-15s


And i cry on Pakistan for purchasing equipmeny like Zulus despite a chance of repeated 1990s saga 
I mean russian and turkish option are as good and way less sanction prone

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## CriticalThought

ziaulislam said:


> And hence why one shouldn't invest in f16s.even though it was way cheaper option as compared to mirage2000. This was true back in 1980s. Now PAF is stuck with f16s so i wont blame them for working on it
> From what i am seeing in other branches of armed forces. I believe had there been no sanctions or clear offer from china we wouldn't have had jf 17



If certain pics and hints on the forum are to be believed, PAC has quietly acquired some level of expertise in making F-16 spares, thanks to ToT from Turkey. I remember seeing a pic of Yellow F-16 with Pakistani guys working on it, and a training seminar given by Turks. So I think we should be OK in the F-16 area.



ziaulislam said:


> And i cry on Pakistan for purchasing equipmeny like Zulus despite a chance of repeated 1990s saga
> I mean russian and turkish option are as good and way less sanction prone



Again, I think PA was specifically after the millimetre wavelength terrain mapping radars. This was absolutely cutting edge technology not available anywhere else. These birds were trialled in Pakistan, PA proposed changes, and the changes were approved for both U.S. Marines and PA. It was at the time the most logical thing to do. Where it stopped making sense was when U.S. displayed cheap, lowball tactics of witholding 50 m dollars in payments. At that time, we should have taken the first step ourselves to cut relations and penalize U.S. by tightening the screws on the supply routes.

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## Hassan Guy

ziaulislam said:


> And i cry on Pakistan for purchasing equipmeny like Zulus despite a chance of repeated 1990s saga
> I mean russian and turkish option are as good and way less sanction prone


ALL are sanction prone.
Pakistan needs to build its own helicopters.

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## redgriffin

Chak Bamu said:


> 1. You live, earn, & pay taxes in USA. The untempered severity of your opinions needs to be moderated by your reality - but it is not. Most posters at PDF are those who live, earn, & pay taxes in Pakistan. They should be, and are more concerned than you. What does it matter to you that PAF does its job or not? Why should anyone care for your unbalanced outbursts?
> 
> 2. Nobody worships PAF. Get your mind straightened out. You imagination is playing tricks. Maybe you should concentrate more on being a productive member of your society than to obsess about your lop-sided opinions.
> 
> 3. Payments for F-16s were made by GoP, not PAF. Lay blame with GoP, not PAF. If you can not 'get' it, then it is pointless to talk to you. The fact that you continue to harp about these things proves that you have really lost it. You have no perspective. You are not reliable in what you talk about. You deliberately mix stuff to create a BS narrative.
> 
> 4. Love or hatred for USA is not based on one issue. It is your unbalanced mind that creates that perception for you. This is totally analogous to your harping about Pakistan not buying M2K or Rafales. It never occurs to you that it would be beyond Idiotic for any regime, democratic or dictatorial, to opt for 2 high-end systems while Pakistan's HDIs are in the gutter. Your mind is poisoned due to your own agenda. You are not a reliable poster in anything you say relating to PAF, or Pakistan in general. You keep uttering falsehoods to satisfy your ego.
> 
> The only reason why I do tangle with your insufferable personality, despite senior posters advising me to not do so, is because you are affecting new Pakistani posters with your mind-set. Cynicism is a disease. You are distributing it indiscriminately.
> 
> 
> Thanks for the advice, bro. But while you and other posters have put Mastan on your ignore list, his idiocies go unchallenged and younger posters are getting affected. Someone has to call his BS out in public.


I applaud your effort in this futile exercise. As they say in Punjabi "Aina da kaa chitta e rehna aye"

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## Chak Bamu

redgriffin said:


> I applaud your effort in this futile exercise. As they say in Punjabi "Aina da kaa chitta e rehna aye"


I do not like it, but somebody has to do it.

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## CriticalThought

Chak Bamu said:


> I do not like it, but somebody has to do it.



You are my hero

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## araz

Chak Bamu said:


> Thanks for posting this. I had a bet with Dr. Bashir at ITU that Chinese engines would be ready for mass scale deployment within a year. This would go some way in convincing him.


Thank you for your posts. I think it is only inevitable that the Chinese engine technology matures with the amount of money and R&D they have poured into it. PAF on the other hand has decided at the moment to steer away from the Chinese Ws13 series and stay the course with the RD series. I remain unsure on those grounds of what the level of maturity of the Chinese engines is. Perhaps the forays made are in particular engines only and the technology has not trickled down into other projects. Or perhaps the mass priduction cycles are still not reliable. This is understandable as these things take time.
The next juncture in JFT history is the block 3. Do we change tack or stay the course? From PAF and Pak perspective that would be the litmus test of our faith in Chinese engines. Or perhaps the next purchase that we make.
A

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## CriticalThought

araz said:


> Thank you for your posts. I think it is only inevitable that the Chinese engine technology matures with the amount of money and R&D they have poured into it. PAF on the other hand has decided at the moment to steer away from the Chinese Ws13 series and stay the cohrse with the RD series. I remain unsure on those grounds of what the level of maturity is. Perhaps the forays made are in particular engines only and the technology has not trickled down into other projects. Or perhaps the mass priduction cycles are still not reliable. This is understandable as these things take time.
> The next juncture in JFT history is the block 3. Do we change tack or stay the course? From PAF and Pak perspective that would be the litmus test of our faith in Chinese engines. Or perhaps the next purchase that we make.
> A



Per @messiach its not so much a lack of quality in Chinese engines, rather, the favors showered upon us by Russians. They have given good advice in areas such as reducing noise and heat signatures. This budding relationship is what led PAF to stick with Russians.

At least, that's the way I understood it.

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## Chak Bamu

araz said:


> Thank you for your posts. I think it is only inevitable that the Chinese engine technology matures with the amount of money and R&D they have poured into it. PAF on the other hand has decided at the moment to steer away from the Chinese Ws13 series and stay the cohrse with the RD series. I remain unsure on those grounds of what the level of maturity is. Perhaps the forays made are in particular engines only and the technology has not trickled down into other projects. Or perhaps the mass priduction cycles are still not reliable. This is understandable as these things take time.
> The next juncture in JFT history is the block 3. Do we change tack or stay the course? From PAF and Pak perspective that would be the litmus test of our faith in Chinese engines. Or perhaps the next purchase that we make.
> A


It is prudent to use time-tested and robust engines on single-engined fighters. I do understand why PAF shall continue to use RD-93. It would be a nice surprise to see WS-13 if & when it gets used, since it is expected to be a bit more efficient due to higher by-pass ratio. Given recent Chinese advances, it might offer a bit more thrust & engine life.

The Chinese engines shall be used in twin-engine aircraft first. WS-10 (IPE?) being used on J-20 would be a big step and a show of confidence in Chinese engine technology. I just hope that we see WS series powered combat aircraft soon, because that would only expand Pakistan's choice. Maybe its because I am a bit of an old-timer now, I do not like dependence on Russians for anything critical. I think that Russian design philosophy does not suit PAF.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Chak Bamu said:


> It is prudent to use time-tested and robust engines on single-engined fighters. I do understand why PAF shall continue to use RD-93. It would be a nice surprise to see WS-13 if & when it gets used, since it is expected to be a bit more efficient due to higher by-pass ratio. Given recent Chinese advances, it might offer a bit more thrust & engine life.
> 
> The Chinese engines shall be used in twin-engine aircraft first. WS-10 (IPE?) being used on J-20 would be a big step and a show of confidence in Chinese engine technology. I just hope that we see WS series powered combat aircraft soon, because that would only expand Pakistan's choice. Maybe its because I am a bit of an old-timer now, I do not like dependence on Russians for anything critical. I think that Russian design philosophy does not suit PAF.


The sense I am getting is that the PAF will actually prefer working with Russia on the engine. They did open talks with Klimov to bring a complete MRO facility for the RD-93 to PAC Kamra in 2015 and in 2016 PAC officials told IHS Jane's that they were interested in both the WS-13 and RD-33MK. Klimov is also developing an RD-93MA, it's due for 2019 and will be marketed towards the Thunder.

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## CriticalThought

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The sense I am getting is that the PAF will actually prefer working with Russia on the engine. They did open talks with Klimov to bring a complete MRO facility for the RD-93 to PAC Kamra in 2015 and in 2016 PAC officials told IHS Jane's that they were interested in both the WS-13 and RD-33MK. Klimov is also developing an RD-93MA, it's due for 2019 and will be marketed towards the Thunder.



Can we expect it for Thunder Block 3?

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## alimobin memon

So Myanmar Jf17 deal is a go? We are giving jets to murderers ?
Please don't just say that they wont be used against rohingya muslims

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## Chak Bamu

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The sense I am getting is that the PAF will actually prefer working with Russia on the engine. They did open talks with Klimov to bring a complete MRO facility for the RD-93 to PAC Kamra in 2015 and in 2016 PAC officials told IHS Jane's that they were interested in both the WS-13 and RD-33MK. Klimov is also developing an RD-93MA, it's due for 2019 and will be marketed towards the Thunder.


Russian timelines are not dependable. Plus I feel that the geopolitically aggressive stance of Russian government would likely run counter to our interests sometime in not-too-distant future. We would do well to insulate ourselves by hedging proactively. Wooing Russia is good, but only where we can maintain choices and not be depending upon them for anything critical.



alimobin memon said:


> So Myanmar Jf17 deal is a go? We are giving jets to murderers ?
> Please don't just say that they wont be used against rohingya muslims


Its not as simple as that. The deal is with China, not Pakistan. In order to with-hold these planes, we have to get China on board. Chinese do not interfere in other countries' internal affairs and are not likely to with-hold the jets. When we said that jet was sanctions-free, this is what it meant. Moral stances have a price. I would willingly pay it, but I am not sure about others. Burmese are murderers alright. But do Chinese agree? That is the question.

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## fatman17

Let's not over react here. UK and US supplying KSA and UAE, who are bombing the shite out of the yemenese. Last time I checked Yemen was a Muslim country. no holier than thou attitude there. The a/c haven't even been delivered. Please no double standards.

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## fatman17

Just a nice picture AW139

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## alimobin memon

fatman17 said:


> Let's not over react here. UK and US supplying KSA and UAE, who are bombing the shite out of the yemenese. Last time I checked Yemen was a Muslim country. no holier than thou attitude there. The a/c haven't even been delivered. Please no double standards.


So some of members here and pakistani's dont condemn attack on yemen and so that justifies the myanmar jf17 deal ? Whether its china who is supplying Pakistan can at least show some anger and ask the china and regional powers to ask them to stop this massacre



Chak Bamu said:


> Russian timelines are not dependable. Plus I feel that the geopolitically aggressive stance of Russian government would likely run counter to our interests sometime in not-too-distant future. We would do well to insulate ourselves by hedging proactively. Wooing Russia is good, but only where we can maintain choices and not be depending upon them for anything critical.
> 
> 
> Its not as simple as that. The deal is with China, not Pakistan. In order to with-hold these planes, we have to get China on board. Chinese do not interfere in other countries' internal affairs and are not likely to with-hold the jets. When we said that jet was sanctions-free, this is what it meant. Moral stances have a price. I would willingly pay it, but I am not sure about others. Burmese are murderers alright. But do Chinese agree? That is the question.


Thank You Sir very professional reply. But We can do something about it ask chinese show some objections. Chinese Love CPEC and Chinese would Love to give us more priority hence they must listen.

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## araz

alimobin memon said:


> So some of members here and pakistani's dont condemn attack on yemen and so that justifies the myanmar jf17 deal ? Whether its china who is supplying Pakistan can at least show some anger and ask the china and regional powers to ask them to stop this massacre
> 
> 
> Thank You Sir very professional reply. But We can do something about it ask chinese show some objections. Chinese Love CPEC and Chinese would Love to give us more priority hence they must listen.


The reality is that even if you object it will not make any difference. You do not have any bargaining chips with the Myanmar Government. We need to build relations first and then look at the possibility of a positive influence towards achieving our aims. Unfortunately muslims do not matter in this world at this point in time. We need to sort out our own house first before looking externally.
A

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## fatman17

alimobin memon said:


> So some of members here and pakistani's dont condemn attack on yemen and so that justifies the myanmar jf17 deal ? Whether its china who is supplying Pakistan can at least show some anger and ask the china and regional powers to ask them to stop this massacre
> 
> 
> Thank You Sir very professional reply. But We can do something about it ask chinese show some objections. Chinese Love CPEC and Chinese would Love to give us more priority hence they must listen.


Pakistan has condemned Myanmar directly and via the UN.

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## messiach

Its about international relations & building alliances. Thank your Lord and then the Russians. What good is a plane without a turbine. Its business afterall but they were in a position to refuse us in the face.



CriticalThought said:


> Per @messiach its not so much a lack of quality in Chinese engines, rather, the favors showered upon us by Russians. They have given good advice in areas such as reducing noise and heat signatures. This budding relationship is what led PAF to stick with Russians.
> 
> At least, that's the way I understood it.

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## fatman17

JF17 B3 will have 8th HP below right intake under the fuselage opposite to gun on left. This HP will be used for carrying mission/sensor pod https://t.co/Iny9579A77

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## fatman17

PLAAF & PAF has started joint exercises in #China J-11B, JH-7A, J-8F, KJ-200 & F-7P, JF-17, ZDK-03 from #Pakistan take part in this exercise https://t.co/3SV7fbavTR

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## fatman17

Nation's Daughter from PAF now also on the forefront to defend the motherland, the are equally ferious & deadly when defending Pakistan https://t.co/L6lDHEYQ0w

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## Thorough Pro

Which AESA radar fits better the JF-17 Block 3?




fatman17 said:


> JF17 B3 will have 8th HP below right intake under the fuselage opposite to gun on left. This HP will be used for carrying mission/sensor pod https://t.co/Iny9579A77
> View attachment 424080

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## Khadim e Darul Ehsaan

fatman17 said:


> JF17 B3 will have 8th HP below right intake under the fuselage opposite to gun on left. This HP will be used for carrying mission/sensor pod https://t.co/Iny9579A77
> View attachment 424080



R dual ejector racks for bvr missiles r operational with block 2 or block 3 will take them ???

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## fatman17

#PakistanAirForce JF-17 Thunder to take part in the "#ShaheenVI" joint training exercises in China. 

https://t.co/oFRAzr4XLO https://t.co/hoDkDg2a3d

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## ghazi52

PM Shahid Khaqan Abbasi takes part in PAF training exercise, flies in an F-16





__ https://www.facebook.com/

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## fatman17

China, #Pakistan air forces hold joint training exercises https://t.co/HIgthMfwrr https://t.co/jS7gb1jcSr

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## fatman17

Just a nice picture

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## fatman17

PAF to hold first ever multinational exercises in which 19 Air forces from around the globe will participate.
https://t.co/l3vn6D7SOr https://t.co/T7dj6dcBU1

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## khanasifm

Chak Bamu said:


> Russian timelines are not dependable. Plus I feel that the geopolitically aggressive stance of Russian government would likely run counter to our interests sometime in not-too-distant future. We would do well to insulate ourselves by hedging proactively. Wooing Russia is good, but only where we can maintain choices and not be depending upon them for anything critical.
> 
> 
> Its not as simple as that. The deal is with China, not Pakistan. In order to with-hold these planes, we have to get China on board. Chinese do not interfere in other countries' internal affairs and are not likely to with-hold the jets. When we said that jet was sanctions-free, this is what it meant. Moral stances have a price. I would willingly pay it, but I am not sure about others. Burmese are murderers alright. But do Chinese agree? That is the question.



There is no comparison between Rd-93 which has flown 30k hours with paf plus 100000 more in form of Rd series 
Chinese engine needs to show same quality plus 10000 hours of operations , wS-13 is for exports plus plaaf/plaan if they decide in future to replace some of j-7, a-5 and even f8 

Paf has already invested too much in Rd with rebuild in country plus training both mi-171 and Rd 93 rebuild started last year or few year ago in country and paf is designated as oem certified facility

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## khanasifm

fatman17 said:


> PAF to hold first ever multinational exercises in which 19 Air forces from around the globe will participate.
> https://t.co/l3vn6D7SOr https://t.co/T7dj6dcBU1
> View attachment 424377



19 air forces are also being their aircraft or some may be observer status ??

This may be paper plus field exercise so some may participate in field plus some just paper one ??

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## CriticalThought

khanasifm said:


> There is no comparison between Rd-93 which has flown 30k hours with paf plus 100000 more in form of Rd series
> Chinese engine needs to show same quality plus 10000 hours of operations , wS-13 is for exports plus plaaf/plaan if they decide in future to replace some of j-7, a-5 and even f8
> 
> *Paf has already invested too much in Rd with rebuild in country plus training both mi-171 and Rd 93 rebuild started last year or few year ago in country and paf is designated as oem certified facility*



WOW. I missed that announcement! (If it was ever announced).

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## khanasifm

http://thediplomat.com/2015/11/pakistan-to-stick-with-russian-engine-for-jf-17-fighter-jet/
Old article reposted 
“When we designed the JF-17 we evaluated a number of design alternatives and we determined that the RD-93 in this single-engine installation is absolutely right for this application,” another PAC representative said. “We worked extensively with the people from Klimov bureau in St Petersburg [Russia] and this engine turned out to be an ideal solution.”

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## fatman17

Video: Joint exercise between Pakistani and Chinese air forces reported by CCTV13. #ShaheenVI https://t.co/lDDgyPIk8B

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

araz said:


> Thank you for your posts. I think it is only inevitable that the Chinese engine technology matures with the amount of money and R&D they have poured into it. PAF on the other hand has decided at the moment to steer away from the Chinese Ws13 series and stay the course with the RD series. I remain unsure on those grounds of what the level of maturity of the Chinese engines is. Perhaps the forays made are in particular engines only and the technology has not trickled down into other projects. Or perhaps the mass priduction cycles are still not reliable. This is understandable as these things take time.
> The next juncture in JFT history is the block 3. Do we change tack or stay the course? From PAF and Pak perspective that would be the litmus test of our faith in Chinese engines. Or perhaps the next purchase that we make.
> A


Fortune favors the brave......

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## fatman17

Shaheen VI

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## mingle

fatman17 said:


> China, #Pakistan air forces hold joint training exercises https://t.co/HIgthMfwrr https://t.co/jS7gb1jcSr
> View attachment 424304
> View attachment 424305
> View attachment 424306


Thanks

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## Talon

fatman17 said:


> Nation's Daughter from PAF now also on the forefront to defend the motherland, the are equally ferious & deadly when defending Pakistan https://t.co/L6lDHEYQ0w
> View attachment 424106


This girl is now an ACCA student..terminated from PAF before passing out

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## MastanKhan

Hodor said:


> This girl is now an ACCA student..terminated from PAF before passing out



And what caused the termination.

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## mrrehan

On the lighter note, this is seems to be American wish how ever this is very stupid dog fight between F-18 and JF-17 in an American a Drama series. but a bit interesting @fatman17 @Windjammer @Zarvan @Horus

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## Talon

MastanKhan said:


> And what caused the termination.


Disciplinary issues..

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## Zarvan

mrrehan said:


> On the lighter note, this is seems to be American wish how ever this is very stupid dog fight between F-18 and JF-17 in an American a Drama series. but a bit interesting @fatman17 @Windjammer @Zarvan @Horus


Somebody posted this video on my group and I didn't watched it because I thought it is some Pakistani made video in which JF-17 takes down F-18. But this is actually shocking and now there is a pattern in USA of ISI specially and Pakistan as a country being shown as the enemy. For past 5 years several Programs specially related to FBI and CIA are busy doing that.

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## Avicenna

Zarvan said:


> Somebody posted this video on my group and I didn't watched it because I thought it is some Pakistani made video in which JF-17 takes down F-18. But this is actually shocking and now there is a pattern in USA of ISI specially and Pakistan as a country being shown as the enemy. For past 5 years several Programs specially related to FBI and CIA are busy doing that.



This is on purpose. Subconsciously teaching the public...

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## Dr Shaheryar

Hahahahha....US silly and funny Pilots takes on everyone and wins. Hilarious comedy.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Call of duty and medal of honor have on many occasions shown pakistanis and isi as the enemy many times.


Zarvan said:


> Somebody posted this video on my group and I didn't watched it because I thought it is some Pakistani made video in which JF-17 takes down F-18. But this is actually shocking and now there is a pattern in USA of ISI specially and Pakistan as a country being shown as the enemy. For past 5 years several Programs specially related to FBI and CIA are busy doing that.





Avicenna said:


> This is on purpose. Subconsciously teaching the public...

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## Dr Shaheryar

yep. Problem is they can win against competent enemies only in movies and dramas. Their metal is only proven against pathetic adversaries( Iraq, Vietnam and Afghanistan).

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## barbarosa

mrrehan said:


> On the lighter note, this is seems to be American wish how ever this is very stupid dog fight between F-18 and JF-17 in an American a Drama series. but a bit interesting @fatman17 @Windjammer @Zarvan @Horus


Watch this video as advertisement of F/A 18. US is going to sell it to Canada.

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## fatman17

Shaheen VI at Korla AB

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## fatman17

barbarosa said:


> Watch this video as advertisement of F/A 18. US is going to sell it to Canada.


JF17 is a threat to Canada?

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## fatman17

I have flown in just about everything, with all kinds of pilots in all parts of the world -- British, French, Pakistani, Iranian, Japanese, Chinese -- and there wasn't a dime's worth of difference between any of them except for one unchanging, certain fact: the best, most skillful pilot has the most experience.

-- Chuck Yeager

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## fatman17

High speed taxiing of WS-10B powered J-20 #2021, maiden flight in a few days via fyjs. https://t.co/uVpWplamxb

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## khanasifm

fatman17 said:


> High speed taxiing of WS-10B powered J-20 #2021, maiden flight in a few days via fyjs. https://t.co/uVpWplamxb
> View attachment 426153
> View attachment 426154
> View attachment 426156



Thanks for sharing but how is this relevant to this thread ? Or paf news ? 

Should be in J-20 thread ?? 

Or is it something paf is involved so relevant ??
Thanks [emoji120]

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## The Fist

PAF Resurrect Uncoverable Aircraft

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## hassan1

http://hawkertempest.se/index.php/action/inpakistan


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## Raider 21

hassan1 said:


> http://hawkertempest.se/index.php/action/inpakistan


Thanks very much for that link. My grand-uncle was the first OC, Sqn Ldr M.Ibrahim Khan when they were equipped with Hawker Tempests. Decades later my father flew F-16s for the same squadron (operational + CCS).

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

The Fist said:


> PAF Resurrect Uncoverable Aircraft


Must watch. @Horus @Oscar @war&peace @Penguin @tps77 @Bratva @JamD

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## fatman17

China says air force drills with Pakistan "routine", no need to overreact https://t.co/zIHOUPhNGy https://t.co/Ri5xTOKfZO

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## Tps43

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Must watch. @Horus @Oscar @war&peace @Penguin @tps77 @Bratva @JamD


I watched It completely while also wasting my mobile data , But It completely worth it . The Guy who was commanding the controllers of stated sqn I know him. So when the news were circulating that it was completely destroyed he always said to me that No U are wrong and I really feel happy that I was proved wrong.Apart from that This incident gave paf alot of lessons which were later implemented one by one the most important one was security of bases and installations.

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## araz

tps77 said:


> I watched It completely while also wasting my mobile data , But It completely worth it . The Guy who was commanding the controllers of stated sqn I know him. So when the news were circulating that it was completely destroyed he always said to me that No U are wrong and I really feel happy that I was proved wrong.Apart from that This incident gave paf alot of lessons which were later implemented one by one the most important one was security of bases and installations.


The change is visible and it trickles down from fhe chief. As to the Programme it was good for the public but I kept sying to myself "why are they skirting the issues. Give us a straight answer". 
PAF has converted this setback into an opportunity. However to me still the future seems a bit vague. Whether this is intentionally being kept this way or is the case needs to be seen.
A

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## CriticalThought

araz said:


> The change is visible and it trickles down from fhe chief. As to the Programme it was good for the public but I kept sying to myself "why are they skirting the issues. Give us a straight answer".
> PAF has converted this setback into an opportunity. However to me still the future seems a bit vague. Whether this is intentionally being kept this way or is the case needs to be seen.
> A



Basically, they are saying PAC has the full capability to take a proposed aerodynamic design, transform it into a structural design per international standards, and then manufacture it using aluminium alloys. In the process, they can also create the complete wiring for the aircraft. For the future, they will need to perform the following:

1. Define the threats we are facing, and the requirements which the next gen aircraft needs to fulfil in order to neutralize those threats.

2. A design phase where various aerodynamic designs are tested to find compliance with laid down requirements. Parameters such as climb rate, drag, life etc. will be calculated based on wind tunnel tests.

3. Engine needs to be finalized. A decade from now means TFX will be a reality.

4. Avionics, EW etc. need to be produced.

They haven't given us any insight into how much of these 4 capabilities we have. But given the whole approach of Aviation City, they will be looking to train local talent in these fields. There will be further acquisitions such as wind tunnels and engines. The production line for AESA radars will need to be set up.

Insha Allah, it looks achievable if we don't digress in the middle and keep the passion, funding, and efforts going.

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## syed_yusuf

they were talking about 2 damaged aircraft. it has been debated to death, but did they mentioned that just 2 were damaged and the theory that one was destroyed is baseless?

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## Advocate Pakistan

syed_yusuf said:


> they were talking about 2 damaged aircraft. it has been debated to death, but did they mentioned that just 2 were damaged and the theory that one was destroyed is baseless?



I have same question i,e. do we have 3 Eeriyes operational and 3 on order or 4 operational and 3 on order.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

syed_yusuf said:


> they were talking about 2 damaged aircraft. it has been debated to death, but did they mentioned that just 2 were damaged and the theory that one was destroyed is baseless?


We had a retired PAF officer a while back say that 2 were being repaired and one other had to be replaced entirely. Around the time he said that, the PAF imported another Saab 2000. Then in the recent MoDP report, the DGDP-A listed "Recovery of 4th AEW&C" at around $125 m. So one was a goner, but it has or will be replaced as part of a fresh order of 3 new Erieye, bringing the fleet to its originally planned force of 6.

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## war&peace

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Must watch. @Horus @Oscar @war&peace @Penguin @tps77 @Bratva @JamD



Thanks for sharing.. Excellent work. "Zara geela ho tu yeh mitti bhi bara acha ha"
This highlights that we have people with in depth knowledge who were able to pull a seemingly impossible job. This is not your average denting and paint job on a car damaged in a road accident. The structural integrity of the airframe is vital. Furthermore a design tip that airplanes are not designed similar to the land vehicles with factor of safety whereas the airplane airframes are designed with Margin of Safety (I can explain the difference if asked) to keep the weight to a minimum. So an airplane is on leaner side and normally discarded if it gets damaged because repairing it to the level where it can fly and pass structural tests is next to impossible and the reason is that the cracks propagate at microscopic level and under extreme loads and temperatures fatigue and creep set in. Airframe of such large airplanes is mostly made of a wireframe and then skin is added on top of it.... multiple levels of complications. My objective is to highlight and appreciate their job. 

Furthermore, there are great aerospace engineers working at PAF Kamra, AERO, Air University and in SUPARCO and also some in private sector like integrated dynamics. We have basic soil for undertaking the fifth gen A/C program, of course through JVs and collaborations.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

war&peace said:


> Thanks for sharing.. Excellent work. "Zara geela ho tu yeh mitti bhi bara acha ha"
> This highlights that we have people with in depth knowledge who were able to pull a seemingly impossible job. This is not your average denting and paint job on a car damaged in a road accident. The structural integrity of the airframe is vital. Furthermore a design tip that airplanes are not designed similar to the land vehicles with factor of safety whereas the airplane airframes are designed with Margin of Safety (I can explain the difference if asked) to keep the weight to a minimum. So an airplane is on leaner side and normally discarded if it gets damaged because repairing it to the level where it can fly and pass structural tests is next to impossible and the reason is that the cracks propagate at microscopic level and under extreme loads and temperatures fatigue and creep set in. Airframe of such large airplanes is mostly made of a wireframe and then skin is added on top of it.... multiple levels of complications. My objective is to highlight and appreciate their job.
> 
> Furthermore, there are great aerospace engineers working at PAF Kamra, AERO, Air University and in SUPARCO and also some in private sector like integrated dynamics. We have basic soil for undertaking the fifth gen A/C program, of course through JVs and collaborations.


They were coy about it, but from the footage given it seems like they built Depot level MRO for the Saab 2000. Honestly, the next step should be to revive the Saab 2000, but with new PW 150 turboprops and most of the airframe manufactured in Pakistan. I think our civil commuter market can provide decent scale for the cost of setting up, though we can add few unarmed ISR platforms to the mix too.

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## mrrehan

Why cannot we can go for TOT with SAAB.

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## war&peace

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> They were coy about it, but from the footage given it seems like they built Depot level MRO for the Saab 2000. Honestly, the next step should be to revive the Saab 2000, but with new PW 150 turboprops and most of the airframe manufactured in Pakistan. I think our civil commuter market can provide decent scale for the cost of setting up, though we can add few unarmed ISR platforms to the mix too.



Sometimes seemingly unfavourable conditions lead to very positive outcomes and perhaps this incident is one of them for PAF and Pakistan if we can capitalise on it and build from here.



tps77 said:


> I watched It completely while also wasting my mobile data , But It completely worth it . The Guy who was commanding the controllers of stated sqn I know him. So when the news were circulating that it was completely destroyed he always said to me that No U are wrong and I really feel happy that I was proved wrong.Apart from that This incident gave paf alot of lessons which were later implemented one by one the most important one was security of bases and installations.

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## syed_yusuf

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> We had a retired PAF officer a while back say that 2 were being repaired and one other had to be replaced entirely. Around the time he said that, the PAF imported another Saab 2000. Then in the recent MoDP report, the DGDP-A listed "Recovery of 4th AEW&C" at around $125 m. So one was a goner, but it has or will be replaced as part of a fresh order of 3 new Erieye, bringing the fleet to its originally planned force of 6.



it make sense, to end with by 2020 PAF will be flying 6 saab 2000 erieye ER. nevertheless a good number specially if coupled with 4 ZDK-03. 10 AEWCS for size of Pakistan is definitely a good number. specially when we need just 3 to cover the entire land mass.

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## war&peace

syed_yusuf said:


> it make sense, to end with by 2020 PAF will be flying 6 saab 2000 erieye ER. nevertheless a good number specially if coupled with 4 ZDK-03. 10 AEWCS for size of Pakistan is definitely a good number. specially when we need just 3 to cover the entire land mass.


We can dedicate them for different roles. We need to acquire more maritime surveillance platforms especially since india is expanding at a rapid rate and the stakes are getting higher in IOR.

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## fatman17

China says air force drills with Pakistan "routine", no need to overreact https://t.co/zIHOUPhNGy https://t.co/Ri5xTOKfZO

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## Penguin

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Must watch. @Horus @Oscar @war&peace @Penguin @tps77 @Bratva @JamD


Did. Interesting. Without doubting achievement, which can only be commended, it does make you wonder about cost and cost-effectiveness: would obtaining another similar airframe and moving te AEWC systems have been cheaper (assuming possible)?

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## Tps43

araz said:


> The change is visible and it trickles down from fhe chief. As to the Programme it was good for the public but I kept sying to myself "why are they skirting the issues. Give us a straight answer".
> PAF has converted this setback into an opportunity. However to me still the future seems a bit vague. Whether this is intentionally being kept this way or is the case needs to be seen.
> A


Actually If they had answered straight they feared back lashed so they took a zigzag path.
I would rather say Paf future to me seems secure and without any major hiccups.



war&peace said:


> Sometimes seemingly unfavourable conditions lead to very positive outcomes and perhaps this incident is one of them for PAF and Pakistan if we can capitalise on it and build from here.

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## fatman17



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## war&peace

tps77 said:


> Actually If they had answered straight they feared back lashed so they took a zigzag path.
> I would rather say Paf future to me seems secure and without any major hiccups.



Kiu itna excited ho bhai.. ...beth jao aram se 

Well, I would say that they are moving in the right direction but I can't say for sure if their future is totally secure until the first 5th gen enters the production and there will be hiccups on the way but if they persevere and make smart moves, they will succeed finally.

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## CriticalThought

war&peace said:


> Kiu itna excited ho bhai.. ...beth jao aram se
> 
> Well, I would say that they are moving in the right direction but I can't say for sure if their future is totally secure until the first 5th gen enters the production and there will be hiccups on the way but if they persevere and make smart moves, they will succeed finally.



Insha Allah.

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## Tps43

war&peace said:


> Kiu itna excited ho bhai.. ...beth jao aram se
> 
> Well, I would say that they are moving in the right direction but I can't say for sure if their future is totally secure until the first 5th gen enters the production and there will be hiccups on the way but if they persevere and make smart moves, they will succeed finally.


Ghee and sugar in ur butiful mouth
Yeah but lets see what happens but hope for the best.

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## war&peace

tps77 said:


> Ghee and sugar in ur butiful mouth
> Yeah but lets see what happens but hope for the best.



This need to decide and acquire a 4.5 medium to heavy fighter asap so that they can focus on 5th gen without worrying too much about the deadlines and hence making mistakes and compromises. If PAF has 5-6 squadrons of big birds like EFT, J16, JH7 etc, I won't be worried by the acquisition of Rafale by India.

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## CriticalThought

war&peace said:


> This need to decide and acquire a 4.5 medium to heavy fighter asap so that they can focus on 5th gen without worrying too much about the deadlines and hence making mistakes and compromises. If PAF has 5-6 squadrons of big birds like EFT, J16, JH7 etc, I won't be worried by the acquisition of Rafale by India.



Sir, the Rafale threat is the threat of EW and superior weapons package. Meaning, advanced missiles that are not fooled by flares and other counter-measures so easily.

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## Tps43

war&peace said:


> This need to decide and acquire a 4.5 medium to heavy fighter asap so that they can focus on 5th gen without worrying too much about the deadlines and hence making mistakes and compromises. If PAF has 5-6 squadrons of big birds like EFT, J16, JH7 etc, I won't be worried by the acquisition of Rafale by India.


OMG 5 6 sqn's That too likes of EFT , j16
konsa bakra halal karna hai bhai, Till the time PAF budget doesnt get double I cannot see any one of these coming.

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## war&peace

CriticalThought said:


> Sir, the Rafale threat is the threat of EW and superior weapons package. Meaning, advanced missiles that are not fooled by flares and other counter-measures so easily.


Yes, we need to acquire those on priority basis and integrate with our existinng A/C ( F-16, JF17) and also check what package a possible 4.5 gen A/C comes?



tps77 said:


> OMG 5 6 sqn's That too likes of EFT , j16
> konsa bakra halal karna hai bhai, Till the time PAF budget doesnt get double I cannot see any one of these coming.


Well these are big ticket purchase so special budget will be made..
Bakray bohat hai Pakistan main.

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## CriticalThought

war&peace said:


> Yes, we need to acquire those on priority basis and integrate with our existinng A/C ( F-16, JF17) and also check what package a possible 4.5 gen A/C comes?



The discussion has interesting detail. Should we continue on this thread, or shift it to some more dedicated thread? I can create one if none exists. Please advise.

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## Tps43

war&peace said:


> Yes, we need to acquire those on priority basis and integrate with our existinng A/C ( F-16, JF17) and also check what package a possible 4.5 gen A/C comes?
> 
> 
> Well these are big ticket purchase so special budget will be made..
> Bakray bohat hai Pakistan main.


But those bakra dont get into our hands so we r at badluck for now.

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## war&peace

tps77 said:


> But those bakra dont get into our hands so we r at badluck for now.


bakre ka maa kab khait manay ga . aik din tu 



CriticalThought said:


> The discussion has interesting detail. Should we continue on this thread, or shift it to some more dedicated thread? I can create one if none exists. Please advise.


As you feel better bro..

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## razgriz19

CriticalThought said:


> Basically, they are saying PAC has the full capability to take a proposed aerodynamic design, transform it into a structural design per international standards, and then manufacture it using aluminium alloys. In the process, they can also create the complete wiring for the aircraft. For the future, they will need to perform the following:
> 
> 1. Define the threats we are facing, and the requirements which the next gen aircraft needs to fulfil in order to neutralize those threats.
> 
> 2. A design phase where various aerodynamic designs are tested to find compliance with laid down requirements. Parameters such as climb rate, drag, life etc. will be calculated based on wind tunnel tests.
> 
> 3. Engine needs to be finalized. A decade from now means TFX will be a reality.
> 
> 4. Avionics, EW etc. need to be produced.
> 
> They haven't given us any insight into how much of these 4 capabilities we have. But given the whole approach of Aviation City, they will be looking to train local talent in these fields. There will be further acquisitions such as wind tunnels and engines. The production line for AESA radars will need to be set up.
> 
> Insha Allah, it looks achievable if we don't digress in the middle and keep the passion, funding, and efforts going.


That's not what they're saying. They said they can do mods and repair in house to manufacture's standards. 
That means they can come up with approved repair designs and build them to OEM standard. It's big thing but not a huge thing.

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## CriticalThought

razgriz19 said:


> That's not what they're saying. They said they can do mods and repair in house to manufacture's standards.
> That means they can come up with approved repair designs and build them to OEM standard. It's big thing but not a huge thing.



They have the relevant qualifications, training, and expertise. Admittedly, it takes a bit of 'reading between the lines', but I am confident in my assessment.

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## Tps43

war&peace said:


> bakre ka maa kab khait manay ga . aik din tu
> 
> 
> As you feel better bro..


Aik din tou halaal hoga

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## war&peace

razgriz19 said:


> That's not what they're saying. They said they can do mods and repair in house to manufacture's standards.
> That means they can come up with approved repair designs and build them to OEM standard. It's big thing but not a huge thing.


To be honest, these kinds of repairs are more difficult than making a new product and that's exactly what they were told by SAAB.



tps77 said:


> Aik din tou halaal hoga


ha na, inko halal tu karna ha

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## HRK

Penguin said:


> it does make you wonder about cost and cost-effectiveness: would obtaining another similar airframe and moving te AEWC systems have been cheaper (assuming possible)?



in reply to a question they gave estimation of ~5% cost as compare to alternative solution in the program

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## Thorough Pro

I think he did mention the cost to be around 5% of acquisition cost, even if you double it, I don't think you can get anything in that amount. In addition even if the planes were not recovered, the knowledge and experience gained would be worthwhile the effort.



Penguin said:


> Did. Interesting. Without doubting achievement, which can only be commended, it does make you wonder about cost and cost-effectiveness: would obtaining another similar airframe and moving te AEWC systems have been cheaper (assuming possible)?

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## CriticalThought

From

http://www.guancha.cn/military-affairs/2017_09_23_428335_3.shtml

Using google translate



> In the case of Pakistan, historically, Pakistan has confronted India and the Soviet Air Force during the war between India and Pakistan and during the war in Afghanistan. In the 1950s and 1970s, the Pakistan Air Force was clearly dominant in the record, and even had a number of "one-day trump card" (one of the air combat in the shooting more than five aircraft), especially in the 1980s to obtain US F-16 fighter, the Pakistan Air Force has repeatedly played against the Soviet Air Force, and achieved good results. Under the American system trained pilots in the initiative, enthusiasm has some characteristics.
> 
> But despite this, after the Cold War, with the Indian and Pakistan strength of the shift, the Soviet Union after the disintegration of the United States to reduce the strength of Pakistan's military aid and other factors, the Pakistan Air Force a serious crisis. By the year 2000, the Pakistani Air Force, which was mainly equipped with Mirage-3, had to "protect the war" and let the Indian Air Force third-generation fighter plane implement air support in the border conflict between India and Pakistan. This is the biggest shame in the history of the Pakistan Air Force.
> 
> In fact, this is not just a performance disadvantage of the fighter, for the Pakistan Air Force, its early India and Pakistan war experience in organizing air battles in the three generations after the era has long been outdated, and its acceptance of the F-16 and the Soviet Union after the air confrontation It is only a border action, for its organization of large-scale air combat is also no help. It can be said that Pakistan was completely at that time did not have the ability to organize a formal air confrontation. On the contrary, the Indian Air Force not only vigorously procurement of advanced fighters, but also efforts to organize their own air operations organizational capacity, especially after entering the 21st century, India "Jianlou" access to Israel "Feierkang" air warning system, Pakistan is a " Asymmetric advantage ". A small number of outstanding pilots in the system against the overall disadvantage in the case, is not play a big role.
> 
> Since the new century, with the development of the Pakistan Air Force JF-17 fighter and the United States to thank the Pakistan war crimes in the contribution to the delivery of F-16C / D fighter aircraft to Pakistan and part of the F-16A fighter to upgrade, Pakistan Air Force strength has a new improvement.
> 
> For the well-known reasons, the Pakistan Air Force did not send its most advanced F-16C / D fighters to participate in CMB training, "falcon" when, perhaps the future Sino-Pakistani training can look forward to the new Aspect
> 
> Pakistan Air Force ZDK-03 early warning aircraft publicity photo, although the aircraft has long been the arrival, but how to use this early warning aircraft in the air combat to seize the advantage, the Pakistan Air Force is still a big problem
> 
> However, from the combat point of view, the Pakistan Air Force has entered the three generations of machine age, never had a large-scale air confrontation experience. Especially in the Indian Air Force has hundreds of advanced three generations of fighters under the premise of the Pakistan Air Force is not only in the number of weaknesses, strategic depth, the number of bases and other factors have been India over one. So the full start of the facelift JF-17, and gradually replace the old "Phantom" series fighter in the process, the Pakistan Air Force in urgent need of large-scale air campaign organization of new experience.
> 
> Can be said that the joint training of Pakistan and Pakistan, the Pakistan Air Force is a rare opportunity, because the United States will not give Pakistan a similar opportunity, and Pakistan's Middle East allies are now busy with the Air Force "war", there is no similar opportunity.
> 
> It is noteworthy that Pakistan, including ZDK-03 early warning aircraft to participate in the whole, for Pakistan, to learn how to use early warning aircraft for air command is a new issue, the CMB Air Force "with the same By "training, but also contains the early warning aircraft with the training, which in fact than the Pakistani Emmanuel Brigadier General J-11BS fighter is much more meaningful.
> 
> For Pakistan's future potential for future military conflict, the experience of the Pakistani Air Force in obtaining large-scale air battles that can not be obtained through other channels will be of great value.
> 
> This article is the exclusive article of the observer network, the content of the article is purely personal point of view, does not mean that the platform point of view, without authorization, may not be reproduced, or will be held accountable. Concerned about the observer network micro letter guanchacn, daily reading fun articles.



@Oscar @Bilal Khan 777 @messiach @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @fatman17 @MastanKhan @Hodor

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## fatman17

CriticalThought said:


> From
> 
> http://www.guancha.cn/military-affairs/2017_09_23_428335_3.shtml
> 
> Using google translate
> 
> 
> 
> @Oscar @Bilal Khan 777 @messiach @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @fatman17 @MastanKhan @Hodor


Can't make head or tail of this message

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## fatman17

Shaheen Ⅵ exercise: an offensive air to ground combat training was conducted at night. https://t.co/pGc58rDdmT https://t.co/HzlQhdQnkh

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## CriticalThought

fatman17 said:


> Can't make head or tail of this message



I am just seeking comments on some of the assertions made by this Chinese reporter. The English is pretty bad translation from Google. Here are the main points I am seeking comment on:

1. Kargil is a shameful chapter of PAF history because they simply didn't have the aircraft to fly against Indians.
2. PAF is struggling to properly use ZDK-03 to its full potential.
3. PAF doesn't get too much practice in waging a large scale air war.

There are a few other barbs in between the lines there. I just want seniors to comment on these.

From my own knowledge, I can see, for example, that point 3 above cannot be true, given PAF regularly holds 'all of airforce' exercises, but still, independent comments would be welcome.

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## fatman17

Chinese & Pakistani air forces have demonstrated mutual trust by sitting in same fighter during joint drills named "Shaheen VI" @defencepk https://t.co/9jiuWHVAju

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## fatman17

CriticalThought said:


> I am just seeking comments on some of the assertions made by this Chinese reporter. The English is pretty bad translation from Google. Here are the main points I am seeking comment on:
> 
> 1. Kargil is a shameful chapter of PAF history because they simply didn't have the aircraft to fly against Indians.
> 2. PAF is struggling to properly use ZDK-03 to its full potential.
> 3. PAF doesn't get too much practice in waging a large scale air war.
> 
> There are a few other barbs in between the lines there. I just want seniors to comment on these.
> 
> From my own knowledge, I can see, for example, that point 3 above cannot be true, given PAF regularly holds 'all of airforce' exercises, but still, independent comments would be welcome.


This guy is a moron. The Chinese are incredibly grateful to Pakistan for exposure to western DCAT.

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## volatile

Penguin said:


> Did. Interesting. Without doubting achievement, which can only be commended, it does make you wonder about cost and cost-effectiveness: would obtaining another similar airframe and moving te AEWC systems have been cheaper (assuming possible)?


Hi the real cost is designing of such system as it involves countless man hours and testing ,The job performed by PAF is an excellent work and some how it paves the way for new frontiers if taken in business terms ,I suggest that PAF use all these people and create a new company with private sector help , the cost of manufacturing or reproduce should always be cheap

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## Penguin

HRK said:


> in reply to a question they gave estimation of ~5% cost as compare to alternative solution in the program


What alternative solution exactly? Used airframe, new airframe? And how long a lifespan for each versus repaired airframe? Again, I'm just wondering. %5 seems a bit low.



Thorough Pro said:


> I think he did mention the cost to be around 5% of acquisition cost, even if you double it, I don't think you can get anything in that amount. In addition even if the planes were not recovered, the knowledge and experience gained would be worthwhile the effort.


Yeah but I wouldn't compare repair with cost of acquisition of a new Saab AEWC (which would include both airframe and AEWC system?). What I meant is the cost of getting a used similar airframe and then simply refitting that with the AEWC from the of damaged airframe. I'm aware there is value in doing the repair at home, irrespective of the replacement cost.



volatile said:


> Hi the real cost is designing of such system as it involves countless man hours and testing ,The job performed by PAF is an excellent work and some how it paves the way for new frontiers if taken in business terms ,I suggest that PAF use all these people and create a new company with private sector help , the cost of manufacturing or reproduce should always be cheap


To be clear, the fact I am looking at cost does on no way detract from the egineering achievement of PAF personnel.

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## CriticalThought

Penguin said:


> What alternative solution exactly? Used airframe, new airframe? And how long a lifespan for each versus repaired airframe? Again, I'm just wondering. %5 seems a bit low.
> 
> 
> Yeah but I wouldn't compare repair with cost of acquisition of a new Saab AEWC (which would include both airframe and AEWC system?). What I meant is the cost of getting a used similar airframe and then simply refitting that with the AEWC from the of damaged airframe. I'm aware there is value in doing the repair at home, irrespective of the replacement cost.
> 
> 
> To be clear, the fact I am looking at cost does on no way detract from the egineering achievement of PAF personnel.



It seems they repaired the structure, but they also performed 'systems recovery'. I don't know what this means, but if they were able to produce some sensitive electronics in-house then that would be a great achievement indeed.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Penguin said:


> What alternative solution exactly? Used airframe, new airframe? And how long a lifespan for each versus repaired airframe? Again, I'm just wondering. %5 seems a bit low.
> 
> 
> Yeah but I wouldn't compare repair with cost of acquisition of a new Saab AEWC (which would include both airframe and AEWC system?). What I meant is the cost of getting a used similar airframe and then simply refitting that with the AEWC from the of damaged airframe. I'm aware there is value in doing the repair at home, irrespective of the replacement cost.
> 
> 
> To be clear, the fact I am looking at cost does on no way detract from the egineering achievement of PAF personnel.


Is it possible that the repair work was done to the airframe due to the lack of available surplus Saab 2000s? IIRC just 63 were built, and Pakistan alone is on its way to flying 1/10 of the fleet. I know other Saab 2000s will be sought for the Erieye follow on order (3 more planes), but that's due for completion in 2020. It can be that alternate Saab 2000s weren't available in 2013.

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## Path-Finder

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/911588355145691136

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## HRK

Penguin said:


> What alternative solution exactly? Used airframe, new airframe? And how long a lifespan for each versus repaired airframe? Again, I'm just wondering. %5 seems a bit low.


didn't explain in detail .... you can yourself listen it they spoke a single line about this issue

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## war&peace

Penguin said:


> Did. Interesting. Without doubting achievement, which can only be commended, it does make you wonder about cost and cost-effectiveness: would obtaining another similar airframe and moving te AEWC systems have been cheaper (assuming possible)?



In house repairs can be very economical since they had access MRF and the whole Kamra that are able to produce everything they needed. Furthermore, for each new product the provider not only charges for the product but also a huge profit and R&D costs + taxes and duties.

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## war&peace

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Is it possible that the repair work was done to the airframe due to the lack of available surplus Saab 2000s? IIRC just 63 were built, and Pakistan alone is on its way to flying 1/10 of the fleet. I know other Saab 2000s will be sought for the Erieye follow on order (3 more planes), but that's due for completion in 2020. It can be that alternate Saab 2000s weren't available in 2013.


Sir, their next gen. system is underdevelopment ( I forgot its name). Shouldn't we look into that?

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## mingle

Path-Finder said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/911588355145691136


I think it's been in service when kiyani was chief. They just showing her export customer to public.

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## Thorough Pro

Pakistan already operates Luna's, this might be a newer version



Path-Finder said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/911588355145691136

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

war&peace said:


> Sir, their next gen. system is underdevelopment ( I forgot its name). Shouldn't we look into that?


Do you mean the Erieye ER GaN AEW&C? It's available for sale but it's basically a new system entirely.

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## war&peace

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Do you mean the Erieye ER GaN AEW&C? It's available for sale but it's basically a new system entirely.


GlobalEye which is usable of all types of surveillance

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

war&peace said:


> GlobalEye which is usable of all types of surveillance


So the GlobalEye has 3 parts:

1. Erieye ER for AEW&C
2. Ground-facing SAR of unknown model
3. EO/IR turret

I don't think it would be difficult to add the EO/IR turret. The PAF likes Star SAFIRE EO/IR pods quite a bit, they can look to add one to the Saab 2000 AEW&C. The ground-facing SAR is trickier as a large stand-off type would add a lot of weight to the Saab 2000 airframe. I honestly doubt the GlobalEye uses something akin to the JSTARS SAR, more likely a COTS system from Leonardo. It might be doable depending on the weight of the SAR/GMTI.

The Erieye ER part is basically like ordering a new AEW&C. It can only be plausible if the PAF is ordering them brand new from Saab, thereby setting up a 3rd AEW&C platform. For a dreamer it wouldn't be shocking, we have people asking the PAF to pick-up the KJ-2000 or KJ-500. However, it's feasibility will depend on how much it adds to the maintenance overhead.

IMO it'd be better to have a separate aircraft for ground-facing ISR. They can look at picking up some other used Saab 2000s, ATR-72s or CN-235s and fitting them with EO/IR turrets and SAR/GMTI. It'd be better to dedicate the AEW&C crew to support air defence tasks while making a few dedicated ground-facing ISR assets available for the Army for their own ISR needs.

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## fatman17

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/911117622103638017Shaheen VI video

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## Ahmet Pasha

fatman17 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/911117622103638017Shaheen VI video


@fatman17. Bro I am looking for the official logo of SSGN and SSW this is probably not the right thread but can you please help me out?
Thanks

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## fatman17

96 year old former PAF Air Chief Asghar Khan sent condolence message for Marshal #Arjansingh demise. Here the two in 1960s https://t.co/js60HlqjJw

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## fatman17

Ahmet Pasha said:


> @fatman17. Bro I am looking for the official logo of SSGN and SSW this is probably not the right thread but can you please help me out?
> Thanks


Shouldn't be too hard to find.

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## fatman17

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/911836026057797632Shaheen VI video

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## HRK

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> So the GlobalEye has 3 parts:
> 
> 1. Erieye ER for AEW&C
> 2. Ground-facing SAR of unknown model
> 3. EO/IR turret
> 
> I don't think it would be difficult to add the EO/IR turret. The PAF likes Star SAFIRE EO/IR pods quite a bit, they can look to add one to the Saab 2000 AEW&C. The ground-facing SAR is trickier as a large stand-off type would add a lot of weight to the Saab 2000 airframe. I honestly doubt the GlobalEye uses something akin to the JSTARS SAR, more likely a COTS system from Leonardo. It might be doable depending on the weight of the SAR/GMTI.
> 
> The Erieye ER part is basically like ordering a new AEW&C. It can only be plausible if the PAF is ordering them brand new from Saab, thereby setting up a 3rd AEW&C platform. For a dreamer it wouldn't be shocking, we have people asking the PAF to pick-up the KJ-2000 or KJ-500. However, it's feasibility will depend on how much it adds to the maintenance overhead.
> 
> IMO it'd be better to have a separate aircraft for ground-facing ISR. They can look at picking up some other used Saab 2000s, ATR-72s or CN-235s and fitting them with EO/IR turrets and SAR/GMTI. It'd be better to dedicate the AEW&C crew to support air defence tasks while making a few dedicated ground-facing ISR assets available for the Army for their own ISR needs.


3 of SAAB-2000 are pictured with visible under-fuselage bulge hopefully these bulge are some sort of Ground facing SAR radar 

SAAB-2000 (*10025+11045*)






*10040*+12-002




*
11045




10040



*

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## Ahmet Pasha

Ive looked everywhere but only ssg army logo is found.


fatman17 said:


> Shouldn't be too hard to find.

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## Lord Of Gondor

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Ive looked everywhere but only ssg army logo is found.


Not really sure of the SSW logo but this is the best I could find:




SSW^








SSG(N)

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## Ahmet Pasha

Isnt 1st one the same as ssg army logo???


Lord Of Gondor said:


> Not really sure of the SSW logo but this is the best I could find:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SSW^
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SSG(N)



Oh and thanks for ur help.

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## Lord Of Gondor

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Isnt 1st one the same as ssg army logo???
> 
> 
> Oh and thanks for ur help.


Okay some more searching lead me to this:

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## fatman17

Lord Of Gondor said:


> Okay some more searching lead me to this:


Nice job

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## Hell hound

Knuckles said:


> Thanks very much for that link. My grand-uncle was the first OC, Sqn Ldr M.Ibrahim Khan when they were equipped with Hawker Tempests. Decades later my father flew F-16s for the same squadron (operational + CCS).


a bit of a personal question which i have been meaning to ask you for some time (don't answer if you don't like it). was your father the one who was shot down in the friendly fire incident or was he the one who accidentally pulled the trigger. if possible can you pls narrate the whole thing once again. i now can't find your post about the incident.

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## Raider 21

Hell hound said:


> a bit of a personal question which i have been meaning to ask you for some time (don't answer if you don't like it). was your father the one who was shot down in the friendly fire incident or was he the one who accidentally pulled the trigger. if possible can you pls narrate the whole thing once again. i now can't find your post about the incident.


PM me and I'll let you know. Got some pics as well.

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## Hell hound

Knuckles said:


> PM me and I'll let you know. Got some pics as well.


can't do that as i am not a think tank but will posting on your profile page do?

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## fatman17

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/911981367839412224Typhoon Down


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## fatman17

LGB500

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## Khadim e Darul Ehsaan

Knuckles said:


> PM me and I'll let you know. Got some pics as well.


Sir i will like tu know also, if u find feasible tell me tu that incidence

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## fatman17

Senior Pakistani officer flies the Chinese J-11 fighter aircraft. Via https://t.co/6VDsWt5PHa https://t.co/L0jm9uGD1M

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## fatman17

AVM Muhammad Haseeb Paracha,
Air Officer Commanding - Southern Air Command (PAF) flew J-11 Chinese fighter during Excercise 'Shaheen VI' https://t.co/3OOQFPJOsJ

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## BATMAN

fatman17 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/911981367839412224Typhoon Down


Saw that yesterday, I think pilot passed out here.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Is southern air force responsible for maritime ops????

Looks like an orientation flight I think


fatman17 said:


> AVM Muhammad Haseeb Paracha,
> Air Officer Commanding - Southern Air Command (PAF) flew J-11 Chinese fighter during Excercise 'Shaheen VI' https://t.co/3OOQFPJOsJ

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## fatman17

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Is southern air force responsible for maritime ops????
> 
> Looks like an orientation flight I think


Absolutely

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## fatman17

BATMAN said:


> Saw that yesterday, I think pilot passed out here.


Italian

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## Khadim e Darul Ehsaan

View attachment 428104

J20 small scale model delivery to paf

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## fatman17

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/912932433741443072Haseeb video J11

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## MastanKhan

BATMAN said:


> Saw that yesterday, I think pilot passed out here.



*Auto-GCAS Saves Unconscious F-16 Pilot—Declassified US Air Force ...*

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## Mugwop

fatman17 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/912932433741443072Haseeb video J11


Did he further comment more about his experience?

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## fatman17

Mugwop said:


> Did he further comment more about his experience?


He gave a thumbs up

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## fatman17



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## araz

fatman17 said:


> He gave a thumbs up


It is a big thing for an AVM to be involved in such an exercise and possibly shows the level of co operation between China and Pak.
A

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## fatman17

araz said:


> It is a big thing for an AVM to be involved in such an exercise and possibly shows the level of co operation between China and Pak.
> A


Let's not speculate but I'm sure evaluation of every platform available in China is ongoing on a regular basis

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## fatman17

J20 enters PLAAF service

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## khanasifm

araz said:


> It is a big thing for an AVM to be involved in such an exercise and possibly shows the level of co operation between China and Pak.
> A



He is not the first Avm to attend every exercise were attended by high ranker last one avm is now am 

It’s just he is known because of tv appearance

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## fatman17

China and Pakistan Demonstrate Alliance, Flex Muscles During Joint Exercise
MILITARY & INTELLIGENCE
23:40 28.09.2017
(updated 03:05 29.09.2017)

For the first time ever, a Pakistani fighter pilot has flown a Chinese warplane during joint combat exercises between the two Asian nations. The exercises, which lasted through most of September, took place in Xinjiang, the westernmost province of China that borders Pakistan.
The Shaheen-VI exercises, the latest in a series of annual joint drills between the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) and the People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) that started in 2011, happened this year between September 5 and 25. They included many firsts, according to Chinese military sources, such as live-fire target practice, night warfare, and close support operations.

But the biggest news from the exercise came when Air Vice Marshal Haseeb Paracha, head of PAF's Southern Air Command, climbed into a Chinese J-11B fighter and flew a sortie as part of the exercises. This was the first time in history that a PAF pilot flew a PLAAF plane, a symbolic gesture of the tight bonds between Beijing and Islamabad.


"The air vice marshal was accompanied by Xin Xin, a vice-chief of staff of the PLA Air Force. This marks the first time that a Pakistani top military official has flown in China's new fighter jet," reported the Chinese military in a statement. "The Chinese warplane performed acrobatic maneuvers during the flight, drawing praise from Haseeb."

The exercises included Shenyang J-11 jet fighters (a modification of the Soviet Sukhoi Su-27,) Xian JH-7 fighter-bombers, and KJ-200 Airborne Early Warning and Control (AEW&C) systems from China, and JF-17 Thunder fighter jets. JF-17's are a joint project between two state-owned companies: the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex and the Chengdu Aircraft Corporation of China.

Speaking on behalf of Chinese President Xi Jinping, Col Wu Qian praised the PAF and the strong alliance the exercises emblematized. "Speaking of Pakistan, the first word that comes to my mind is 'Iron Pak'," the Colonel said in a press release, using a nickname for Pakistan that refers to the "ironclad" friendship between the two powers.


"If we characterize Pakistan-China military-to-military relations," said Wu, then the three key concepts are "all-weather brotherhood, high-level mutual assistance and support, and deep-rooted strategic mutual trust."

The strong expression of support comes just days after a strict condemnation of Pakistan by India, a mutual rival, during the United Nations General Assembly. Indian Foreign Minister Sushma Swaraj called Pakistan a nation whose main exports are "terrorists and terrorist camps."

Swaraj specifically mentioned Jaish-e-Mohammad (JEM), a Kashmir-separatist and jihadi group with close ties to al-Qaeda and the Taliban. JEM is suspected of being the culprits behind an attack against an Indian military base in Kashmir in September 2016 that left 19 soldiers dead.


China has used their Security Council veto to prevent India from classifying Masood Azhar, the leader of JEM, as the leader of a terrorist group, later compromising and allowing JEM itself to be classified as a terror organization as of the BRICS summit earlier in September.

However, Beijing reassured Islamabad that this did not signify any "change in Chinese policy regarding Pakistan."


...


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## fatman17

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 428514
> 
> J20 enters PLAAF service


Low key announcement of the day: J-20 commissioned into PLAAF service.

http://eng.mod.gov.cn/news/2017-09/28/content_4793397.htm

BEIJING, Sept. 28 (Xinhua) -- China's latest J-20 stealth fighter has been officially commissioned into military service, according to Wu Qian, spokesperson for the Ministry of National Defense on Thursday.

The flight tests are being conducted as scheduled, Wu said at a press conference.

The J-20 is China's fourth-generation medium and long-range fighter jet. It made its maiden flight in 2011 and was first shown to the public at the 11th Airshow China in Zhuhai, Guangdong Province, in November last year.

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## war&peace

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> So the GlobalEye has 3 parts:
> 
> 1. Erieye ER for AEW&C
> 2. Ground-facing SAR of unknown model
> 3. EO/IR turret
> 
> I don't think it would be difficult to add the EO/IR turret. The PAF likes Star SAFIRE EO/IR pods quite a bit, they can look to add one to the Saab 2000 AEW&C. The ground-facing SAR is trickier as a large stand-off type would add a lot of weight to the Saab 2000 airframe. I honestly doubt the GlobalEye uses something akin to the JSTARS SAR, more likely a COTS system from Leonardo. It might be doable depending on the weight of the SAR/GMTI.
> 
> The Erieye ER part is basically like ordering a new AEW&C. It can only be plausible if the PAF is ordering them brand new from Saab, thereby setting up a 3rd AEW&C platform. For a dreamer it wouldn't be shocking, we have people asking the PAF to pick-up the KJ-2000 or KJ-500. However, it's feasibility will depend on how much it adds to the maintenance overhead.
> 
> IMO it'd be better to have a separate aircraft for ground-facing ISR. They can look at picking up some other used Saab 2000s, ATR-72s or CN-235s and fitting them with EO/IR turrets and SAR/GMTI. It'd be better to dedicate the AEW&C crew to support air defence tasks while making a few dedicated ground-facing ISR assets available for the Army for their own ISR needs.


Now they are using Bombardier 7000 series business jets that increases the range and endurance in addition to adding the comfort.

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## war&peace

fatman17 said:


> China and Pakistan Demonstrate Alliance, Flex Muscles During Joint Exercise
> MILITARY & INTELLIGENCE
> 23:40 28.09.2017
> (updated 03:05 29.09.2017)
> 
> For the first time ever, a Pakistani fighter pilot has flown a Chinese warplane during joint combat exercises between the two Asian nations. The exercises, which lasted through most of September, took place in Xinjiang, the westernmost province of China that borders Pakistan.
> The Shaheen-VI exercises, the latest in a series of annual joint drills between the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) and the People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) that started in 2011, happened this year between September 5 and 25. They included many firsts, according to Chinese military sources, such as live-fire target practice, night warfare, and close support operations.
> 
> But the biggest news from the exercise came when Air Vice Marshal Haseeb Paracha, head of PAF's Southern Air Command, climbed into a Chinese J-11B fighter and flew a sortie as part of the exercises. This was the first time in history that a PAF pilot flew a PLAAF plane, a symbolic gesture of the tight bonds between Beijing and Islamabad.
> 
> 
> "The air vice marshal was accompanied by Xin Xin, a vice-chief of staff of the PLA Air Force. This marks the first time that a Pakistani top military official has flown in China's new fighter jet," reported the Chinese military in a statement. "The Chinese warplane performed acrobatic maneuvers during the flight, drawing praise from Haseeb."
> 
> The exercises included Shenyang J-11 jet fighters (a modification of the Soviet Sukhoi Su-27,) Xian JH-7 fighter-bombers, and KJ-200 Airborne Early Warning and Control (AEW&C) systems from China, and JF-17 Thunder fighter jets. JF-17's are a joint project between two state-owned companies: the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex and the Chengdu Aircraft Corporation of China.
> 
> Speaking on behalf of Chinese President Xi Jinping, Col Wu Qian praised the PAF and the strong alliance the exercises emblematized. "Speaking of Pakistan, the first word that comes to my mind is 'Iron Pak'," the Colonel said in a press release, using a nickname for Pakistan that refers to the "ironclad" friendship between the two powers.
> 
> 
> "If we characterize Pakistan-China military-to-military relations," said Wu, then the three key concepts are "all-weather brotherhood, high-level mutual assistance and support, and deep-rooted strategic mutual trust."
> 
> The strong expression of support comes just days after a strict condemnation of Pakistan by India, a mutual rival, during the United Nations General Assembly. Indian Foreign Minister Sushma Swaraj called Pakistan a nation whose main exports are "terrorists and terrorist camps."
> 
> Swaraj specifically mentioned Jaish-e-Mohammad (JEM), a Kashmir-separatist and jihadi group with close ties to al-Qaeda and the Taliban. JEM is suspected of being the culprits behind an attack against an Indian military base in Kashmir in September 2016 that left 19 soldiers dead.
> 
> 
> China has used their Security Council veto to prevent India from classifying Masood Azhar, the leader of JEM, as the leader of a terrorist group, later compromising and allowing JEM itself to be classified as a terror organization as of the BRICS summit earlier in September.
> 
> However, Beijing reassured Islamabad that this did not signify any "change in Chinese policy regarding Pakistan."
> 
> 
> ...


I would like to add the world "publicly" into the opening sentence.



fatman17 said:


> The J-20 is China's fourth-generation medium and long-range fighter jet. It made its maiden flight in 2011 and was first shown to the public at the 11th Airshow China in Zhuhai, Guangdong Province, in November last year.


One clarification for all, China uses a slightly different classification system for generations of ACs so a 5th internationally is a 4th gen in Chinese system.


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## araz

khanasifm said:


> He is not the first Avm to attend every exercise were attended by high ranker last one avm is now am
> 
> It’s just he is known because of tv appearance


Haseeb Paracha is a 16s ace and known for a lot more than TV appearances.
A



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> We had a retired PAF officer a while back say that 2 were being repaired and one other had to be replaced entirely. Around the time he said that, the PAF imported another Saab 2000. Then in the recent MoDP report, the DGDP-A listed "Recovery of 4th AEW&C" at around $125 m. So one was a goner, but it has or will be replaced as part of a fresh order of 3 new Erieye, bringing the fleet to its originally planned force of 6.


It is a pity we cant hold on to people of real calibre. He was a retired AC if my guess is right and we have had another Air Commodore on the board before. These guys need to be cherished and given their due share of respect for their services to the country.
A

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## fatman17

Shaheen VI concludes

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## fatman17

Photo: A PLAAF J-8 takes off while PAF F-7PGs wait on the ramp at Korla air base in China on September 14, during the latest Shaheen manoeuvres. PAF




The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) sent a large contingent of fighters to Korla air base in China during mid-September, in a bid to further increase interoperability with the People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF).

Exercise Shaheen VI has seen the PAF deploy a squadron of JF-17 Thunders, ROSE III Mirage VEFs, Chengdu F-7PGs and a single ZDK-03 Karakoram Eagle airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) aircraft. According to the PAF the objective of these manoeuvres is “to strengthen the working relationship between both the air forces and help them learn from each other’s experiences”.

Over a three-week period, combat pilots, air defence controllers and ground crews will strengthen their expeditionary and tactical skills in the most complex Shaheen exercise to date.

It is the first time that JF-17 Thunders have flown to China for a tactical exercise, as all previous visits were connected to visiting the Zhuhai Airshow or the JF-17 test and development facility at Chengdu. This goes some way to illustrating the PAF’s confidence in the maturing jet.

The PLAAF has deployed the Shenyang J-8, Shenyang J-11, Xi’an JH-7 and KJ-200 AEW&C aircraft in the latest PAF/PLAAF joint exercise, which sees the two countries host the event in alternative years. The first PAF and PLAAF joint manoeuvres under Exercise Shaheen took place in 2012, when several J-11s visited PAF Base Rafiqui. Since then, the China-based exercises have taken place at Hotain (2013) and Yinchuan (2015), with PAF Mirage IIIEAs and F-7PGs being an ever-present.

Deploying overseas for exercises plays is an important part of the PAF’s tactical philosophy. Since 2004 it has visited exercises in Turkey (Anatolian Eagle), Nellis AFB, Nevada (Red Flag), Jordan (Falcon Air Meet), Egypt (Bright Star) and Saudi Arabia (Al Saqoor) as well as China. *Alan Warnes*

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## volatile

Are Mirages able to communicate with Karakoram ?


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## raahaat7

volatile said:


> Are Mirages able to communicate with Karakoram ?


I guess Link_17 was developed for this very perpose.


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## khanasifm

Aircraft with radar can feed air picture to non radar type like mirage 5 with no radar, so can other assets

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## CriticalThought

khanasifm said:


> Aircraft with radar can feed air picture to non radar type like mirage 5 with no radar, so can other assets



So the miragrs are enabled for Network Centric Warfare?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

CriticalThought said:


> So the miragrs are enabled for Network Centric Warfare?


Yes.

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## fatman17

Air Marshal Farooq Habib appointed as Vice Chief of Pakistan Air Force
https://t.co/NrTGvxTipD https://t.co/pivzcO8hrj

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## fatman17

RAF Red Arrows over Karachi

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## fatman17



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## fatman17

#OTH First flight of Cessna T-37 on 12 October 1954. [emoji767]Ken Kula #cessna #t37 #trainer #military #history #aeroausmag #avgeek https://t.co/DlG4wl0MZs




60 + years later, PAF still operating the Tweet

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## khanasifm

19 k8 with 1 sqn rest of 20 at paf academy paf need to order another 20-25 to phase out t-37s not sure when it’s going to happen perhaps after block 3 50 jf delivered by 2022 ??


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## fatman17



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## Lord Of Gondor

Good watch. Great Warrior.
Not a fan of the interviewer though, felt that he could have prepared better.

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## fatman17

Pakistan Russia in talks for fifth generation fighter jet: RUSI
https://t.co/Z5i4v0TFbb https://t.co/TfMQCBj7cX

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## mingle

fatman17 said:


> Pakistan Russia in talks for fifth generation fighter jet: RUSI
> https://t.co/Z5i4v0TFbb https://t.co/TfMQCBj7cX
> View attachment 431098


Su 35 ?

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## fatman17

C4iSR: Air

Image suggests DART-450 turboprop is possible candidate for new PLAAF basic trainer

Richard D Fisher Jr - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

13 October 2017

The Diamond Aircraft Industries DART-450 tandem turboprop-powered trainer has emerged as a possible candidate for a new People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) basic training aircraft, according to information provided by Chinese reporter Wu Jie.

The journalist posted a photograph on his Weibo website of a DART-450 model in PLAAF markings that he claims was taken in September at an exhibition by the China Electronics Technology Corporation (CETC) Wuhu Diamond Aircraft Manufacturing Company, which is based in China’s eastern Anhui Province.

A photograph posted in September on Chinese online forums shows a model of a DART-450 training aircraft in PLAAF markings. (Via Wu Jie)

Formed in December 2013, this joint venture (JV) between the CETC and the Wuhu Municipal Government licence-builds Diamond Aircraft Industries aircraft such as the DA42 MPP, the DA42-VI, and the DA20.

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## fatman17

6-ship of the #Saudi Air Force F-15 Eagles, assigned to the 13th Sqn, arrive to Mushaf AFB, #Pakistan for exercise 'ACES MEET 2017' https://t.co/3nmG4OILkT

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## khanasifm

http://www.scramble.nl/orbats/saudi-arabia/airforce

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## khanasifm

Per paf history book 1999-2013 additional k8 in coming years will replace t-37s
K8 and mashaq will form paf training system 

as far as other platform are concerned I think with success of mushaq it’s going anyware for next 2 decades or so

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## fatman17



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## Readerdefence

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 431461
> View attachment 431462
> View attachment 431463
> View attachment 431464


Hi do they use CFT on f15 c/d 
Thx for your reply

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## khanasifm

Readerdefence said:


> Hi do they use CFT on f15 c/d
> Thx for your reply




E model not sure if it also applies to c/d 

http://www.f-15e.info/joomla/technology/fuel-system/91-conformal-fuel-tanks

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## Raider 21

khanasifm said:


> E model not sure if it also applies to c/d
> 
> http://www.f-15e.info/joomla/technology/fuel-system/91-conformal-fuel-tanks


They have it on C/Ds, called FAST packs.

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## fatman17

#Azerbaijan has shown its interest to buy Pakistan-made #JF17Thunder fighter jets

https://t.co/rUd6v647N3 https://t.co/JNFmHFBW6a

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## fatman17

PAF international seminar in Air Headquarters, 18 allied countries Airforce delegates participate
https://t.co/Vy2vPLDGC4 https://t.co/cUi0Q03Dwo

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## Gryphon

INTEL REPORT: Masters of Mirage maintenance
Alan Warnes goes behind the scenes at the Mirage Rebuild Factory at Pakistan Aeronautical Complex Kamra.

http://www.airforcesmonthly.com/the-magazine/view-issue/

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> INTEL REPORT: Masters of Mirage maintenance
> Alan Warnes goes behind the scenes at the Mirage Rebuild Factory at Pakistan Aeronautical Complex Kamra.
> 
> http://www.airforcesmonthly.com/the-magazine/view-issue/


It's a snippet from that article: "The past PAF leadership’s investment in the MRF is reaping dividends decades later, and the work will continue until the JF-17 Thunder is mature enough, or a new fighter has been acquired, to take on most of the Mirage’s roles." @Oscar That should pretty much authenticate what you had been saying about the PAF seeking (at one point) a new strike fighter to supplant the Mirages. Seems that road has split to also (or only) see a more strike-capable JF-17.

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## khanasifm

Anything new in FORCE REPORT: Nigerian Air Force Part Two
In the second and concluding part of AFM’s fascinating study of the Nigerian Air Force, M Mazumdar examines post-2014 combat operations, its plans and provides a full air order of battle.

Not sure if there was something new in part one ?

Lastly if the news of 3 new HP on block 3 is correct then perhaps a jf will r place all mirages 

New Ac if acquired will be kind of add on new capability or replacement for rose 2/3 Ac ie no 25 and 26 sqn the late mirage sqn to convert to jf or the new type 

IMO

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## Gryphon

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It's a snippet from that article: "The past PAF leadership’s investment in the MRF is reaping dividends decades later, and the work will continue until the JF-17 Thunder is mature enough, or a new fighter has been acquired, to take on most of the Mirage’s roles." @Oscar That should pretty much authenticate what you had been saying about the PAF seeking (at one point) a new strike fighter to supplant the Mirages. Seems that road has split to also (or only) see a more strike-capable JF-17.



Anyone can download AFM pdf. Not allowed to post magazine screenshots on defence.pk as those are copyright violations.

Regarding the need of a strike fighter, I would suggest JH-7 Flounder. (@MastanKhan has been saying this for years now. )

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

The PAF is not as pragmatic as the PN. While the PN will "pick up whatever works whenever it is available", the PAF seems to gun for optimizing every single asset to do as much as possible. In other words, the PAF will probably avoid specialized strike platforms (as light as turboprops to as heavy as JH-7A) and seek a strike-capable multi-role fighter.

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## Gryphon

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> the PAF seems to gun for optimizing every single asset to do as much as possible. In other words, the PAF will probably avoid specialized strike platforms (as light as turboprops to as heavy as JH-7A) and seek a strike-capable multi-role fighter.



Mirages are more CAS assets now than MR. It is evident from PA Command / Corps level exercises conducted in recent years.

JH-7 with JF-17 escort (connected with AWACS and each other via data-link) can conduct SEAD, CAS and ALCM/SOW missions over medium distances. Pakistan can rely on GLCM and ballistic missiles for striking 'deep'. 

You don't have much to choose from with little money in pockets. Su-35, EF Typhoon or even MiG-35 / J-10 nowhere in sight.

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## araz

khanasifm said:


> Anything new in FORCE REPORT: Nigerian Air Force Part Two
> In the second and concluding part of AFM’s fascinating study of the Nigerian Air Force, M Mazumdar examines post-2014 combat operations, its plans and provides a full air order of battle.
> 
> Not sure if there was something new in part one ?
> 
> Lastly if the news of 3 new HP on block 3 is correct then perhaps a jf will r place all mirages
> 
> New Ac if acquired will be kind of add on new capability or replacement for rose 2/3 Ac ie no 25 and 26 sqn the late mirage sqn to convert to jf or the new type
> 
> IMO


I think if the engine is more capable tben increasing the Hardpoints seems more logical. However a safer bet may well be DERS for BVRs which might make things good enough at a cost. Inlet mounted HP is certai to accomodate the Aselsan pod.
A

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## khanasifm

araz said:


> I think if the engine is more capable tben increasing the Hardpoints seems more logical. However a safer bet may well be DERS for BVRs which might make things good enough at a cost. Inlet mounted HP is certai to accomodate the Aselsan pod.
> A



You can have more HP but as long as you do it exceed max take off weight / external load you should be fine idea is to give more configuration options with in the existing limit 

Of course you will have to test various configurations 

If mirage with 1: .68 thrust to weight ration in clean configuration then jf with .99 or 1 plus ( with 50% internal fuel) you are fine

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## mingle

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Anyone can download AFM pdf. Not allowed to post magazine screenshots on defence.pk as those are copyright violations.
> 
> Regarding the need of a strike fighter, I would suggest JH-7 Flounder. (@MastanKhan has been saying this for years now. )


I second that JH-7 with combo JF17 and ZDK 3 will be good enough to strike Indian task force coming towards our waters cheap easy to maintain twinengine heavy load is good enough .


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Mirages are more CAS assets now than MR. It is evident from PA Command / Corps level exercises conducted in recent years.
> 
> JH-7 with JF-17 escort (connected with AWACS and each other via data-link) can conduct SEAD, CAS and ALCM/SOW missions over medium distances. Pakistan can rely on GLCM and ballistic missiles for striking 'deep'.
> 
> You don't have much to choose from with little money in pockets. Su-35, EF Typhoon or even MiG-35 / J-10 nowhere in sight.


If they can't get the Su-35 or Typhoon, then IMO they'll just hold out until a suitable 5th-gen solution is available. I don't think we could expect Project Azm that soon, likely post-JF-17 if the aim is to keep most of the design and development work in-country. Rather, they'll seek the FC-31, TFX or J-20.

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## Gryphon

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> If they can't get the Su-35 or Typhoon, then IMO they'll just hold out until a suitable 5th-gen solution is available. I don't think we could expect Project Azm that soon, likely post-JF-17 if the aim is to keep most of the design and development work in-country. Rather, they'll seek the FC-31, TFX or J-20.



Currently, PAF wants to acquire 1 more F-16 squadron (new or used) which isn't materializing, unfortunately.

Next in line are 2 Mirage squadrons mainly doing ground attack roles. While heavy 4.5 gen MR aircraft replacements are ideal, no progress is being made with any available option.
(PAF continues to try revive dead bodies with more overhauls) So, JH-7 appears a possible option.

PAC can't develop a trainer without foreign help. They should sign TFX as partner as soon as possible. The next thing coming to the neighbourhood is F-35 I believe.

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## khanasifm

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Currenly, PAF wants to acquire 1 more F-16 squadron (new or used) which isn't materializing, unfortunately.
> 
> Next in line are 2 Mirage squadrons mainly doing ground attack roles. While heavy 4.5 gen MR aircraft replacements are ideal, no progress is being made with any available option.
> (PAF continues to try revive dead bodies with more overhauls) So, JH-7 appears a possible option.
> 
> PAC can't develop a trainer without foreign help. They should sign TFX as partner as soon as possible. The next thing coming to the neighbourhood is F-35 I believe.



Khatey ke Khar un khatey deh it will sooner or later


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## mingle

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Currenly, PAF wants to acquire 1 more F-16 squadron (new or used) which isn't materializing, unfortunately.
> 
> Next in line are 2 Mirage squadrons mainly doing ground attack roles. While heavy 4.5 gen MR aircraft replacements are ideal, no progress is being made with any available option.
> (PAF continues to try revive dead bodies with more overhauls) So, JH-7 appears a possible option.
> 
> PAC can't develop a trainer without foreign help. They should sign TFX as partner as soon as possible. The next thing coming to the neighbourhood is F-35 I believe.


I read yesterday indians pulling out from SU 57 5th generation programe if it is true our chances for Su family r bright plus F35 coming india very likely .Mind no Airforce is happySo far F35 performance including israel.its pretty much American forcing other countries to buy them .

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## Safriz

Myanmar Thunder??

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## khanasifm

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Currently, PAF wants to acquire 1 more F-16 squadron (new or used) which isn't materializing, unfortunately.
> 
> Next in line are 2 Mirage squadrons mainly doing ground attack roles. While heavy 4.5 gen MR aircraft replacements are ideal, no progress is being made with any available option.
> (PAF continues to try revive dead bodies with more overhauls) So, JH-7 appears a possible option.
> 
> PAC can't develop a trainer without foreign help. They should sign TFX as partner as soon as possible. The next thing coming to the neighbourhood is F-35 I believe.



Jh-7 does not meet paf profile ie multi role aircraft plus its old technology profile no leading edge and other latest 

It’s equivalent to su-24 and fb-111 and tornado variant for ground attack paf is tactical Air Force and it will prefer multi role rather then specialized aircraft 

Uses 1960s technology spey engine and its chinese copies it’s international version has never found a buyer and total production of around 100 by plaaf plus plaan tells you something  


http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/xianjh7fighterbomber/

http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/aircraft/types/type-details/xian-jh-7-flounder.htm

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## fatman17

Getting ready for Dubai air show

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## khanasifm

Nov 12-16

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## Akasa

JF-17 & J-11B

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## TaimiKhan

SinoSoldier said:


> JF-17 & J-11B
> 
> View attachment 432891


Daddy and son. Jf17 is just like a kid infront of that monster.

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## SQ8

TaimiKhan said:


> Daddy and son. Jf17 is just like a kid infront of that monster.


Also is more difficult to detect and get an eyeball on. From the front, pilots have difficulty getting visual on it

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## fatman17

Shaheen VI

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## Signalian

No sticky on F-7P/PG. 
some Information about F-7P/PG in PAf service.

http://paf-eagles.blogspot.com.au/2011/04/f-7-mig-21-in-paf-service.html

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## Falcon26

Signalian said:


> No sticky on F-7P/PG.
> some Information about F-7P/PG in PAf service.
> 
> http://paf-eagles.blogspot.com.au/2011/04/f-7-mig-21-in-paf-service.html


From above link-
“The movie of the HUD was examined by external experts, and is still shown in the CCS. The positioning of aircraft in a perfect by the GCI was commendable, and the way IAF fighters, identified as MiG-27ML exited the scene was morale booster for every PAF pilot who saw that engagement.”

Has anyone ever seen or heard about this HUD film? Should be released publicly to bust some misconceptions about PAF posture during the Kargil War @Windjammer @Knuckles

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## Windjammer

Falcon26 said:


> From above link-
> “The movie of the HUD was examined by external experts, and is still shown in the CCS. The positioning of aircraft in a perfect by the GCI was commendable, and the way IAF fighters, identified as MiG-27ML exited the scene was morale booster for every PAF pilot who saw that engagement.”
> 
> Has anyone ever seen or heard about this HUD film? Should be released publicly to bust some misconceptions about PAF posture during the Kargil War @Windjammer @Knuckles


There were several incidents where PAF fighters had Indian jets in their sights....amongst them when two F-16s trailed a flight of five MiG-29s for about 20 minutes with Indian pilots completely oblivious of Falcon's presence until warned by their GCI, at which point the Indian pilots panicked so violently that they almost crashed into each other.

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## fatman17



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## mingle

fatman17 said:


>


Baba G this is future .

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## fatman17

mingle said:


> Baba G this is future .


I may be old but I'm not baba G

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## fatman17

An LED probe light was installed on top of the right engine intake behind the IFR probe to illuminate both the probe and the drogue from the tanker during night operations. All Block IIs starting from 16-229 will have the IFR probe and probe light installed. The aircraft is to be supported by PAF Il-78MPtanker. The IFR test was believed to have started in 2017.

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## fatman17

General Bajwa Witnesses Multinational Air Exercise 'Aces Meet 2017'Quote

Post Thu Oct 26, 2017 5:47 pm

Today, Chief of Army Staff General Qamar Javed Bajwa visited Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Base Mushaf, Sargodha, to witness multinational air exercise 'Aces Meet 2017'.

Aircraft of PAF, Turkish Air Force (TuAF) and Royal Saudi Air Force (RSAF) are taking part in the two-week long exercise that began on October 16. Representatives of eight other air forces are attending the exercise as observers.

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## fatman17

Anadolu Agency



Pakistan's counter terror air exercise with Turkey ends

Saudi forces also participated in 2-week long air exercise in southwestern Sargodah

home > Turkey, world 28.10.2017 





By Islamuddin Sajid

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan

The first ever two-week long multinational counter terrorism air exercise involving Pakistani, Turkish and Saudi air forces ended in southeastern Sargodah in Punjab province on Saturday, according to a Pakistani air force spokesman’s statement.

The exercise, named ACES MEET-2017, had begun on Oct. 16 at Pakistani air force’s Mushaf Operational Air Base Sargodah. 

Contingents of Turkish Air Force and Royal Saudi Air Force comprising fighter aircraft, combat pilots and ground technical crew had taken part in the exercise, the statement said.

The main objective of the exercise was to maximize the combat readiness of the air forces by providing a realistic training environment in air combat training and counter terrorism operations.

The participating crews simulated contemporary air combat tactics utilizing state of the art training aids.

Besides live para drops by commandos of Pakistani air force’s Special Services Wing in the contested air space, a large force employment concept was also practiced during the exercise.

Addressing the participants, Pakistani air force chief Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman lauded the professionalism of the Turkish and Saudi air forces, and hoped that they would take back good memories of their rewarding interactions from Pakistan.

The Turkish team leader Maj. Orhun Atasever thanked the Pakistani air force for its hospitality and for arranging such an exercise.

"This international exercise was met with the same standard as the exercise of other countries of the world; sharing of this professional experience knowledge and combat experience are true manifestation of our good relationship," Atasever said, who concluded his remarks with Zindabad (Long Live) Turkey-Pakistan brotherhood.

Anadolu Agency website contains only a portion of the news stories offered to subscribers in the AA News Broadcasting System (HAS), and in summarized form.

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## fatman17

#PAF Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman flew on the last #RSAF F-15 mission in exercise 'ACES MEET 2017' piloted by Col. Hussaini https://t.co/nkKYB3Sibx

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## fatman17

China CCTV7 now airing military documentary "The Eagles of Tian Shan - Pak China Joint Air Exercise SHAHEEN-VI" https://t.co/UUfXw7itEg

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## Tank131

Any idea if they pitted JF-17 against F-15?

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## Hell hound

Tank131 said:


> Any idea if they pitted JF-17 against F-15?


i my memory serves me right thunders once went against saudi f 15 in a exercise .fight was interesting enough that american f 18 jockey wanted to spar with thunder.

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## Tank131

I think thunder should not participate in direct exercise with us until relations are stabilized. The PAF will be at enough disadvantage without our military giving away the flight characteristics of your fleets backbone to the Indians.

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## Army research

Air Forces monthly on Nigeria's future plans , indicates 3 jf 17 
Also something new , shaheen foundation of Pakistan helping NAF maintain craft

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## fatman17

THE PAF "FALCONS" MAKE HISTORY 
Little Dragon M.M Alam, Wg. Cdr Mervyn L. Middlecoat and other PAF Falcons in 1968 https://t.co/QdSJ11aomp

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## Hassan Guy

Is PAF not buying the C-130J?

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## fatman17

OP-ED





ACES Meet-2017

Being mindful of the scarcity of funds and reducing the financial burden on the nation, while stressing on indigenization, ensures the longevity of air assets, provides cost effective solutions to demands of technological advancement and even generates revenue through defence export.

S M Hali

NOVEMBER 4, 2017

Pakistan’s first ever two-week long multinational counter terrorism air exercise ACES Meet-2017 concluded on October 28 and was witnessed by the current and former Air Chiefs, war veterans of PAF, and senior serving and retired officers including this scribe and Contingents of the Turkish and Royal Saudi Air Forces comprising fighter aircrafts, combat pilots and ground technical crew participated in this epoch making operational exercise. Officials from various allied countries including the Russian Federation, Poland, Lebanon, Uzbekistan and Azerbaijan participated in the exercise as observers. Contingent Commanders of the Turkish and Royal Saudi Air Forces presented their views on ACES Meet-2017, deeming it to be a unique experience where they were exposed to realistic scenarios of combating terrorism with the aid of airpower, supporting the land, maritime and Special Forces. They showered accolades on PAF’s Airpower Centre of Excellence (ACE) for organizing the major counter terrorism air exercise, which they considered to be of very high professional standards.

Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force commended the organizers and participants, reiterating PAF’s resolve to stand committed for aerial defence in Pakistan. Adding that PAF continues to progress on the sound foundations built by its illustrious ancestors to take PAF to greater heights of excellence. He praised the professionalism of the participating air forces and hoped that they would take good memories of rewarding interaction from here.

Earlier the Commandant of ACE presented a comprehensive briefing about the Centre of Excellence, its vision, mission statement, operational doctrine, establishment, development of weapons systems, evolution of tactics, training modules, curricula and the mode of conduct of the multinational air exercise. It is remarkable that the idea of establishing ACE was floated by ACM Sohail Aman in 2015, the ground breaking of the premier institution took place soon after, while the establishment was completed in 2016 and here it was conducting multinational airpower war-games and operational exercises. The professional institutions supplement the prestigious Combat Commanders School (CCS) and facilitates in providing training to mid-level aircrew and air defence controllers by inculcating combat leadership and professional excellence in the role of airpower. ACE is devoted to building a country’s capacity to undertake air warfare operations in the context of counterinsurgency (COIN). Specifically, ACE aims to build the capacity of air forces to effectively utilize their intelligence, surveillance, reconnaissance (ISR) and precision-strike assets in an effective manner.

The establishment of the Aviation City near PAF Aeronautical Complex Kamra is not only timely but also fulfils the demand where knowledge and industry can work together to create new opportunities for Pakistan in the field of aerospace

It is remarkable, that the PAF, which was called to participate in counter terrorism (CT) operations in support of the land, maritime and Special Forces, had neither the experience nor the wherewithal for this sensitive undertaking. PAF leadership, which was also sensitive to possible collateral damage resulting from CT operations, approached the task in a highly professional manner. It not only developed tactics but also platforms for gathering valuable intelligence and reconnaissance platforms along with munitions, which would deliver a telling blow on the enemy, avoid collateral damage, and minimize risks to the participating aircrew and air platforms. It goes to the credit of PAF, its leadership and personnel that it has not only gained invaluable experience through baptism in fire but is now in a position to share its experiences and tactics developed with allied air forces.

ACE speaks volumes for the national effort and is being replicated at the upcoming Main Operating Air Base at Bholari where the focus would be providing air support to maritime operations. The groundbreaking ceremony was performed in December 2015 while the newly accomplished project will be inaugurated before this year ends. It is appreciable that the PAF leadership has undertaken concrete steps to lead the way towards indigenization and self-reliance in defence production. The establishment of the Aviation City near PAF Aeronautical Complex Kamra is not only timely but also fulfils the demand where knowledge and industry can work together to create new opportunities for Pakistan in the field of aerospace.

It was heartening to learn that the conjugal knot in which the aerospace industry and the operators of air weapons platforms have been tied is working wonders. The development of the next generation of fighter aircrafts is already proceeding beyond the drawing board. While strategies are being developed and air combat tactics are evolving, there are also many local developments occurring with the aid of civil technology. This is done to achieve optimum utilization of scarce resources, infrastructures and aerial delivery munitions. The platforms to deploy them are also being developed locally with the aid of civil technology.

State-of-the-art airpower technology costs an arm and a leg while obsolescence also sets in very rapidly. Being mindful of the scarcity of funds and reducing the financial burden on the nation, while stressing on indigenization, ensures the longevity of air assets, provides cost effective solutions to demands of technological advancement and even generates revenue through defence export.



The writer is a retired Group Captain of PAF. He is a columnist, analyst and TV Talk show host who has authored six books on current affairs including three on China

Published in Daily Times, November 4th 2017.

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## fatman17

Hatf VIII

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## fatman17

C4iSR: Joint & Common Equipment

China’s CETC readies long-range air defence radars for export

Kelvin Wong - IHS Jane's International Defence Review

06 November 2017

State-owned electronics and radar systems developer China Electronics Technology Group Corporation (CETC) is taking aim at Asia-Pacific and Middle East countries, which have traditionally relied on Western and Russian radars, with its latest long-range air surveillance and early warning systems, Jane’s sources have revealed.The SLC-7 L-band multifunction phased array radar is claimed to be capable of detecting low observable air threats at ranges of over 300 km. (Ling Hongyi)

CETC’s Nanjing Institute of Electronic Technology (NRIET) subsidiary has completed development of the indigenous road-mobile SLC-7 L-band multifunction phased array radar system. According to specifications provided by the company, the solid-state SLC-7 radar is capable of detecting a target with a radar cross section of 0.05 m 2 at ranges in excess of 450 km, with a claimed detection probability of 80%. Maximum detection altitude is being quoted as 30,000 m.

“The performance of the SLC-7 radar is even greater than that of the Great Pine system,” the source claimed, referring to the EL/M-2080S ‘Green Pine Block-B' phased-array search, acquisition, and fire-control radar developed by Israeli company Elta Systems.

According to CETC, the SLC-7 radar is also capable of detecting and tracking tactical ballistic missiles – with an RCS of 0.01 m 2 – at ranges in excess of 300 km, with a detection probability of 90%.

The SLC-7 radar also features a high level of mobility. A six-person crew can set up and tear down the radar within 15 minutes, enabling it to be swiftly relocated to address gaps in the early warning detection network or complement fixed arrays for increased tracking performance.

CETC has also completed development of its YLC-8B medium/high altitude long range 3D surveillance radar, which is road, rail, and sea transportable and requires less than 30 minutes for a six-person crew to set up and tear down.

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## Zarvan

Commander Royal Jordanian Air Force Major General Yousef Ahmad Al-Hanity lauded the role of#Pakistan Air Force in the war against #terrorism.


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## fatman17

FC31V2 spotted in flight test recently, photos by 牧是家 https://t.co/YJoPYDJUAT

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## fatman17

Today In #AviationHistory 

On November 9, 1983, #PakistanAirForce accepted first #F16FightingFalcon from Peace Gate II order. The sale of F-16 jets to Pakistan was influenced by the close partnership with #Pakistan during the Soviet invasion of #Afghanistan. https://t.co/xMjp6MrDWo

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## fatman17

J10D

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## CriticalThought

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 435906
> View attachment 435907
> View attachment 435908
> 
> J10D



This is what makes me think that a LO version of Thunder is very much possible.


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## mingle

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 435906
> View attachment 435907
> View attachment 435908
> 
> J10D


Sir We should have them it looks cool looks like EF .

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## blain2

Falcon26 said:


> From above link-
> “The movie of the HUD was examined by external experts, and is still shown in the CCS. The positioning of aircraft in a perfect by the GCI was commendable, and the way IAF fighters, identified as MiG-27ML exited the scene was morale booster for every PAF pilot who saw that engagement.”
> 
> Has anyone ever seen or heard about this HUD film? Should be released publicly to bust some misconceptions about PAF posture during the Kargil War @Windjammer @Knuckles


AC Kaiser Tufail has mentioned the mutual lock-ons in his blog. I see no reason to doubt what he wrote.

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## fatman17

Nigeria is set to receive its remaining five Super Mushshak trainer aircraft by the end of the year , already returning four interim trainers borrowed from Pakistan. The four trainers had been used by the 401 Flying Training School in Kaduna for ab-initio flying training while the first batch of trainers was being prepared. The first batch were inducted into service on August 8.

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## fatman17

PAC's Aircraft Manufacturing Factory has painted up one of its demonstrator Super Mushshaks in a new colour scheme. https://t.co/9nR7SQXgZm

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## fatman17

J10C with MAWS sensor

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## fatman17

fatman17 said:


> PAC's Aircraft Manufacturing Factory has painted up one of its demonstrator Super Mushshaks in a new colour scheme. https://t.co/9nR7SQXgZm
> View attachment 436140


In the background a JF17 Block II


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## blain2

Good to see blkIIs with CCS first. Hopefully the school will be the first to take on blkIIIs as well.

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## Talon

blain2 said:


> Good to see blkIIs with CCS first. Hopefully the school will be the first to take on blkIIIs as well.


CCS operates blk 1...that blk 2 is assigned to No. 14 sqn


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## mingle

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 436144
> 
> J10C with MAWS sensor


Fatman any chance of these jets for PAF 50 of them would be good .


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## Advocate Pakistan

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 435906
> View attachment 435907
> View attachment 435908
> 
> J10D


Canted twin tails would be more helpful in increasing stealth characters side-on. There's no point for an all moving vertical tail to be kept in the conventional straight form when you want to improve stealth. But maybe the weight penalty of twin tails wasn't worth the benefits it offered.
*vertical stabilizers


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## fatman17

mingle said:


> Fatman any chance of these jets for PAF 50 of them would be good .


Most likely not as JFT performance is similar esp blockll and the upcoming blocklll

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## fatman17

China's AVIC showing off new jet powered armed UAV, Cloud Shadow mock-up at #DAS17 #avgeek https://t.co/Y5ePl1Ol8i

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## fatman17

Pakistani officers/gentlemen describe the joint Pak-Chinese JF-17Thunder as a “Generation 4.5 fighter.” They fly here #DubaiAirshow at 16.00 https://t.co/enl3fESRjw

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## messiach

That's an important development. Our UAV/UAV-SEAD/UCAV prog could be following these lines. Keep watching.



fatman17 said:


> China's AVIC showing off new jet powered armed UAV, Cloud Shadow mock-up at #DAS17 #avgeek https://t.co/Y5ePl1Ol8i
> View attachment 436379

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## CHI RULES

The thing every one should understand that coming block3 shall take few years to be available in numbers, being a light weight fighter and AD requirements we desperately require another fighter of modern era which can not only take lead role from F16s ( as it looks impossible to upgrade existing stock or even get more)but may also effectively replace our Mirages especially Mirage IIIs. 
India has already committed to Rafael and shall start getting deliveries from 2019, with upgrade of even Jaguars with AESAs. Even SU30 in current form with availability of 200+ fighters with the operational readiness promised to be brought upto greater than 70%. The challenges are real for PAF. The unavailability of potent long range SAMs along with only limited number of medium/short range SAMs the our ground based AD is also unable to cover our entire country. As Manpads like Anza are only good for some defense against old jets or incapable helicopters only.
It's better to commit with FC31 program or jet like J10D should be considered in medium term.

Further I humbly differ from people who consider JF17 equal to J10 as J10 is a medium class fighter jet with better payload can accommodate better EW/ECM/ESM gadgets. The J10D looks much stealthier. The synthetic aperture radar on J10 already has more range than that of JF17, similar shall be case when AESA introduced in JF17. The PL12 version used with latest J10/11 has better rnage than SD10.

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## Advocate Pakistan

messiach said:


> That's an important development. Our UAV/UAV-SEAD/UCAV prog could be following these lines. Keep watching.



Good if that's the case. What if we also develop a smaller one along the lines of IAI Harpy to take care of air defence systems like the Pantsir etc, that are to accompany the enemy's armour formations?


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## khanasifm

The best thing would be to design additional internal fuel capacity to increase total to say 2600/2700kg in jf and increase it range plus external Cft. I think j-10 or what ever paf chooses if they want will come after 2020 for now they want to add AEsa and other gizmos to jf which will be enough to handle anything out there in subcontinent. only short coming against j-10 and mostly f-16 is range plus load if jf has increased max external load to 4300-4600 its will cover anything so the big question is block 3 has increase in internal fuel as well as Cft ? 

Radar range is not an issue due to awacs coverage pretty much whole country and hundred of miles inside other countries

Even ground based coverage with area based tps-77, tps-43g and j and ylc-2 is pretty good in fact just one of these system set covers most of the territory rest act as backups

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## fatman17

Super Mushshak, Made in Pakistan for Qatar Air Force (QAF). 
#Pakistan has recently signed agreements to export Super Mushshak aircraft to #Turkey, #Nigeria and #Qatar. https://t.co/nwNjgJAvOl

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## khanasifm

Amigator said:


> *Armed forces say no to advanced versions of indigenous 'Tejas', 'Arjun'*
> 
> View attachment 436592
> 
> 
> NEW DELHI: The armed forces have virtually given the thumbs down to the proposed advanced versions of the indigenous Tejas light combat aircraft and Arjun main-battle tank by strongly pitching for mega acquisitions of foreign single-engine fighters and futuristic armoured fighting vehicles through the 'Make in India' route under the 'strategic partnership (SP)' policy.
> 
> The Army last week issued the preliminary tender or request for information (RFI) to global armament giants for an initial 1,770 futuristic tanks called the future ready combat vehicles (FRCVs) geared for "rapid dominance in an expanded battle space", while the IAF is getting set to do the same for 114 single-engine fighters soon.
> 
> This comes in the backdrop of the defence ministry finalising the SP policy in May to boost the country's fledgling defence production sector, which envisages Indian private sector companies producing cutting-edge weapon systems in collaboration with global arms majors through joint ventures and technology transfers, as earlier reported by TOI.
> 
> The going will, however, not be easy for IAF and Army. For one, the annual defence budgets now have very little money for new projects with the bulk of the capital outlay being used for "committed liabilities" or instalments of deals inked earlier. IAF's single-engine fighter project, which will be a direct dogfight between the Gripen-E (Sweden) and F-16 (US) jets, for instance, will alone cost an estimated Rs 1.15 lakh crore.
> 
> For another, the DRDO-defence PSU lobby is putting up stiff resistance, leading the government to question the need for the single-engine fighter project. "Questions have also been raised whether such a major project should be given to the private sector. Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), in turn, says it can deliver a much better single-engine Tejas," said a source.
> 
> DRDO contends the forces continue to cold-shoulder indigenous platforms in their hunger to acquire foreign ones. Instead of ordering say around 500 Arjun tanks, which would have stabilised production lines, achieved economies of scale and paved the way for development of a futuristic MBT, the Army has inducted only 124 Arjun Mark-1 tanks till now.
> 
> The Army is not willing to order 118 Arjun Mark-II tanks, costing over Rs 6,600 crore, till they clear field trials. "The FRCV project, if it takes off, will kill the indigenous FMBT project," said a scientist.
> 
> 
> But all this cuts little ice with the forces, which say the DRDO-defence PSU lobby "over-promises and then under-delivers" with huge time and cost overruns. "Can operational military readiness be sacrificed at the altar of indigenisation?" asked a lieutenant general.
> 
> 
> IAF, for instance, says Tejas is yet to become combat-ready or achieve "final operational clearance" after being in the making for over three decades. "Moreover, with its limited range and weapon carrying capacity, the Tejas simply does not give IAF the punch and cost-effectiveness it needs. Tejas, which has just about 50% of the capabilities of an F-16 or Gripen in terms of endurance, payload etc, will have to fly under the protection of other fighters during conflicts," said an officer.
> 
> 
> Grappling with just 33 fighter squadrons when 42 are need to take care of the "collusive threat" from China and Pakistan, the IAF feels the single-engine fighter project is necessary to maintain adequate force-levels till an entirely new Tejas Mark-2 becomes a reality.
> *
> Taken from Times of India Article.*



Wrong thread !! This is paf and not Iaf thread

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## fatman17

#Pakistan #AirForce #PAF finds #China made drones / #UAVs #Wingloong and #Yunying, very tempting in #DAS17 ! https://t.co/QfWwdsshlg


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## princefaisal

CHI RULES said:


> The thing every one should understand that coming block3 shall take few years to be available in numbers, being a light weight fighter and AD requirements we desperately require another fighter of modern era which can not only take lead role from F16s ( as it looks impossible to upgrade existing stock or even get more)but may also effectively replace our Mirages especially Mirage IIIs.
> India has already committed to Rafael and shall start getting deliveries from 2019, with upgrade of even Jaguars with AESAs. Even SU30 in current form with availability of 200+ fighters with the operational readiness promised to be brought upto greater than 70%. The challenges are real for PAF. The unavailability of potent long range SAMs along with only limited number of medium/short range SAMs the our ground based AD is also unable to cover our entire country. As Manpads like Anza are only good for some defense against old jets or incapable helicopters only.
> It's better to commit with FC31 program or jet like J10D should be considered in medium term.
> 
> Further I humbly differ from people who consider JF17 equal to J10 as J10 is a medium class fighter jet with better payload can accommodate better EW/ECM/ESM gadgets. The J10D looks much stealthier. The synthetic aperture radar on J10 already has more range than that of JF17, similar shall be case when AESA introduced in JF17. The PL12 version used with latest J10/11 has better rnage than SD10.


Totally agreed


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## fatman17




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## fatman17

JF-17 Thunder & Mashak trainer aircraft taking part in Dubai Airshow to showcase Pakistan's indigenous defence capabilities
https://t.co/dxwBtru8Gd


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## fatman17

Dubai Air Show

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## fatman17

Leonardo’s M-346FA presented at the Dubai Airshow

By

Asian Military Review





November 14, 2017


Leonardo’s M-346FA (Fighter Attack) makes its debut at the Dubai Airshow, one of the most important global defence and aerospace events, held from 12 to 16 November.

The M-346FA, for which several international air force’s have already demonstrated their interest, represents a further evolution – after the AJT (Advanced Jet Trainer) for the advanced training of military pilots and the multi-role M-346FT (Fighter Trainer) – of a family concept designed to create a common baseline, able to rapidly answer to the different requirements.

Thanks to the integration of the Grifo multi-mode fire control radar, designed and manufactured by Leonardo and already chosen by several customers in the world, the M-346FA offers advanced operational capabilities.

The M-346FA’s characteristics make it not only an excellent advanced trainer, but also a light fighter aircraft capable of carrying out operational missions at far lower costs than those of front-line fighters.

With seven pylons for external loads, the M-346FA is able to operate very effectively as multi-role tactical aircraft, capable of air-to-surface, air-to-air and tactical reconnaissance missions.

Leonardo, a world leader in the training field, offers a product portfolio able to cover the entire training syllabus, from basic-advanced training on the new M-345 into the advanced/lead-in fighter training (LIFT) phase with the M-346.

Already ordered by the Italian Air Force, the M-345 jet trainer is comparable in cost to a high-power turboprop aircraft but with higher levels of performance.

A complete Ground Based Training System (GBTS), well-integrated with the platforms and able to ensure both high quality training and strong operating efficiency, complements the aerial platforms. Platforms and systems offer worldwide customers a “turnkey” training solution that can guarantee the highest quality standards at every training stage.

Among the most notable examples that have integrated Leonardo products and selected them based on excellent performance characteristics is the United Arab Emirates’ national aerobatic team, Al Fursan, which uses the Aermacchi MB-339 aircraft. The Emirati pilots were trained in Italy and the UAE under the guidance of the “Frecce Tricolori” pilots using Italian aircraft and training systems.


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## khanasifm

__ https://www.facebook.com/


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## mingle

fatman17 said:


>


R we looking for this ?


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## fatman17

The FC31 02 prototype was expected to feature "major" improvements in order to make it moreattractive to domestic/foreign customers. Those improvements include a one-piece canopy, a new wide-angle holographic HUD similar to the one onboard J-20, twoindigenous WS-13E turbofan engines with a higher thrust, a longer and fatter fuselage made of more composite materials, a bigger internal weapon bay, larger wing area, reshaped F-35 style vertical tailfins and cropped wing and horizontal stabilizer tips similar to those of F-22. It also has the provisions for nose-mounted IRST, EODAS throughout the fuselage, as well as 6 underwing hardpoints to be installed later. It was rumored that the 01 prototype powered by two upgraded WS-13E turbofan engines flew for the first time on July 1, 2016. An AVIC promotional video released at the 2016 Zhuhai Airshow indicated the 02 prototype was built and was preparing for the maiden flight. The high-speed taxiing test of the 02 prototype started on December 18, 2016. First flight took place on December 23, 2016, powered by two smokeless WS-13Eengines. Currently the test flight of the 02 prototype continues at SAC. A recent rumor (June 2017) suggested that the 03 prototype is being developed which could become the first prototype of the new carrier-based stealth fighter for PLAN. If ordered now by aforeign customer, FC-31 could enter the production as early as 2019 and achieve IOC in 2022.

- Last Updated 11/14/17


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## fatman17

mingle said:


> R we looking for this ?


It would be a great buy for CAS

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## fatman17

Air Forces Monthly
ACM RAF and ACM PAF.jpg final | Air Forces Monthly

The PAF CAS, Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman with the RAF CAS, Air Chief Marshal Sir Stephen Hillier after flying a mission together in separate F-16Bs. PAF

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## Amigator

My Question to all senior persons here on the "PAF News & Discussion Thread" that Why PAF is not considering Russian Mig-35 Fulcrum F variant for its defence. It has come far way in evolution and a direct competitor to Modern MMRCA like Dassault Rafale, SAAB Gripen with affordable price. It's maintenance cost has also diminish over the time. And if we are not able to negotiate for "Sukhois" and "Migs" with russians then what options does PAF have then except JFT Block 3.


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## ZedZeeshan

Amigator said:


> My Question to all senior persons here on the "PAF News & Discussion Thread" that Why PAF is not considering Russian Mig-35 Fulcrum F variant for its defence. It has come far way in evolution and a direct competitor to Modern MMRCA like Dassault Rafale, SAAB Gripen with affordable price. It's maintenance cost has also diminish over the time. And if we are not able to negotiate for "Sukhois" and "Migs" with russians then what options does PAF have then except JFT Block 3.


No future development...!!


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## fatman17

IOMAX has showcased a new and improved Block 2 variant of its Archangel Border Patrol Aircraft (BPA),

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## fatman17

Amigator said:


> My Question to all senior persons here on the "PAF News & Discussion Thread" that Why PAF is not considering Russian Mig-35 Fulcrum F variant for its defence. It has come far way in evolution and a direct competitor to Modern MMRCA like Dassault Rafale, SAAB Gripen with affordable price. It's maintenance cost has also diminish over the time. And if we are not able to negotiate for "Sukhois" and "Migs" with russians then what options does PAF have then except JFT Block 3.


Russia will not sell at this time, but now that Pakistan is member of SCO, things could change in the near future.


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## fatman17

Gripen and JF17 at Dubai air show

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## fatman17

fatman17 said:


> Russia will not sell at this time, but now that Pakistan is member of SCO, things could change in the near future.


Russian export targets for its MiG-35 have been set at over $10 billion, ahead of the fighter’s release for export next year.


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## khanasifm

fatman17 said:


> Gripen and JF17 at Dubai air show



Customer disclosed finally


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## Ultimate Weapon

khanasifm said:


> Customer disclosed finally



I am unable to hear about the new customer. They only mentioned Mayanmar and Nigeria.

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## Ahmet Pasha

JF17 and SM exports should be further increased. And NGF should be built with importance of exports in mind.


Ultimate Weapon said:


> I am unable find to hear about the new customer. They only mentioned Mayanmar and Nigeria.


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## Readerdefence

Amigator said:


> My Question to all senior persons here on the "PAF News & Discussion Thread" that Why PAF is not considering Russian Mig-35 Fulcrum F variant for its defence. It has come far way in evolution and a direct competitor to Modern MMRCA like Dassault Rafale, SAAB Gripen with affordable price. It's maintenance cost has also diminish over the time. And if we are not able to negotiate for "Sukhois" and "Migs" with russians then what options does PAF have then except JFT Block 3.


Hi I think at the moment due to budget constraints paf is not looking for that option but as you know if you have hard cash or a credit line through china for Russians they will give you any fighter jet as long as you can pay them 
Or they have developed interest through pak China economic corridor at the moment they are lying a oil pipe line between Karachi and nawabshah hopefully Russians will start taking interest in Pakistan’s defence procurements
Thx


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## Khafee

Ahmet Pasha said:


> JF17 and SM exports should be further increased. And *NGF should be built with importance of exports in mind.*


Yes, Unlike the JFT.

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## fatman17

Alan Warnes 
Nice to catch up with Sqn Ldr Yasir and Zeeshan the JF-17 demo pilots during last display day on Thursday. Both fly with the Tail Choppers Sqn during normal working hours. https://t.co/F89ZFRY87Z

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## fatman17



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## TaimiKhan

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 438121


J10s have also performed.


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## qwerrty

KLJ-7A AESA for jf-17 block-iii
https://twitter.com/HenriKenhmann
http://www.eastpendulum.com/airshow-china-2016-radar-aesa-klj-7a

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## fatman17

J10s at Samugli AB

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## fatman17

Pakistan Air Force and Air Force of the Chinese People’s Liberation Army take part in a beautiful aerobatic show at Samungli Airbase #Quetta today. @zlj517 https://t.co/9Vwkx8weFJ

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## Talon



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## mingle

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 438121


Fatman looks like detachment of Jf17 s is deployed at samungli?


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## fatman17

mingle said:


> Fatman looks like detachment of Jf17 s is deployed at samungli?


May have come for the airshow


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## fatman17

FC-31 V1.0 spotted during final assembly ... spotted in a CCTV documentary on the J-15. https://t.co/8l0tgLDt6w

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## fatman17

J20, just a nice picture.

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## Raider 21

fatman17 said:


> FC-31 V1.0 spotted during final assembly ... spotted in a CCTV documentary on the J-15. https://t.co/8l0tgLDt6w
> View attachment 438475


Reminds me of the YF-22 with X-35 intakes...


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## fatman17

Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force visited the historic No. 9 Squadron of Royal Air Force and flew an exercise training mission in Tornado fighter jet of this prestigious squadron at Royal Air Force Base Marham, UK.


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## Talon

mingle said:


> Fatman looks like detachment of Jf17 s is deployed at samungli?





fatman17 said:


> May have come for the airshow



Thunders have been on deployment at Samungli for almost an year now..

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## Talon



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## ghazi52

Mahaaz with Wajahat Saeed Khan - Pak Air Force Ka Mahaaz - 26 November 2017 -

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## Cybernetics

China Pakistan "Eagle 6/Shaheen-6" joint night exercise conducting air to ground attacks.




Summary:

September 21, 2017 China and Pakistan air force conducted a joint exercise.
"Red vs Blue" combat, interception and ground attack exercise with each team having a mix of Chinese and Pakistani pilots. This exercise mainly emphasised ground attack.
Night operations
Both country's airborne radar platforms were utilised
Combat exercise directors monitored and evaluated pilot performance.
Set a foundation for future joint exercises and operations.

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## khanasifm

Cybernetics said:


> China Pakistan "Eagle 6/Shaheen-6" joint night exercise conducting air to ground attacks.



Translation ???


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## fatman17

Industry

Pakistan and Poland pursue aerospace co-operation

Beth Stevenson - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

27 November 2017

Pakistani and Polish industry are furthering their industrial defence ties, having conducted the second meeting within a week to discuss potential ways in which the two nations can collaborate on a number of technology areas.

On 24 November, commander of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF), ACM Sohail Aman, visited Warsaw to discuss bilateral aerospace industrial co-operation with Polish Armaments Group (PGZ), and was pictured looking at the company’s unmanned aerial vehicle designs.

This was the second of three visits that are planned for 2017, according to PGZ, and follows a 15–19 November visit during which Pakistan Ordnance Factory and members of the government visited PGZ to discuss potential co-operation in the development of small arms and ammunition.

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## Windjammer

Marking it's anniversary, special nose art applied on a PAF C-130 Transport.

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## fatman17

1971 - The Air War. Read here https://t.co/WiuQJRyado https://t.co/KEdoSzAmyC

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## fatman17

Just a nice picture

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## fatman17

View attachment 440610

Just a nice picture

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## fatman17

Azerbaijan has inked contracts with Pakistan, finalizing a deal to purchase 10 Super Mushshak trainers from Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC). The signing took place during a trilateral meeting of foreign ministers from Pakistan, Turkey and Azerbaijan, and hosted in the Azeri capital Baku. During the meeting, Pakistan’s Foreign Minister Khawaja Muhammad Asif called for greater joint defense production between the three countries, something his counterparts were amenable to. Azerbaijan and Pakistan, being the smaller defence industry players of the three countries, will likely look to limit their hard currency outflows and increase support for their respective defence suppliers by linking to the supply channels supporting the Turkish Armed Forces. This could potentially be had by Islamabad and Baku partnering with Ankara in the latter’s development programs. Pakistan is also looking to sell its JF-17 Thunder multi-role fighter to Azerbaijan, and manufacturer PAC is configuring Turkish firm Aselsan’s ASELPOD targeting pod to the JF-17. This, along with potentially other Turkish subsystems and air-to-surface weapons, could make their way to Azerbaijan should Baku select the JF-17.

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## ghazi52

*PAF to continue its journey of indigenization: Air Chief*








ISLAMABAD: Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal, Sohail Aman on Thursday termed the indigenously produced JF-17 Thunder a symbol of national pride and said that Pakistan Air Force (PAF)would continue its journey of indigenization to further improve country’s defensive capabilities.

He was speaking as chief guest at the opening ceremony of Air Tech Conference and Techno Show at Air University, Islamabad.

Air Vice Marshal (Retd), Faaiz Amir, Vice Chancellor of Air University was also present at the occasion.

The distinguished speakers gave presentations on different aspects of science and technology during the opening session of the conference.

The Air Chief said that Pakistan’s future was bright as the country’s youth were full of talent.

“We need to groom and guide them properly,” he said.

He said that Pakistani nation and the armed forces had fought the war against terrorists with supreme courage and determination, while rendering great sacrifices, which had resulted in wiping out this menace from the country.

Over three thousand students from around hundred educational institutions would present their projects in the four-day conference.

Competitions in 26 different disciplines including photography, aero modelling and robotics etc will also be held during the grand event.

The main objective of the conference is to highlight the importance of technology in the progress of the nation and offering opportunities to the talented students to showcase their hidden talent at both national and international levels.

A science exhibition, followed by a thrilling aero modelling show at F-9 Park, Islamabad will also be held on the last day of the conference.


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## The Eagle

*'Pakistan to send astronauts into space in two years'*

By News Desk
Published: December 7, 2017





Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman addressing AirTech’17 Conference at Air University in Islamabad on Thursday. PHOTO: INP

Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman has announced that Pakistan will be able to send astronauts into space with the collaboration of China in the next two years.

He was addressing the inauguration session of AirTech’17 conference, hosted by Air University in Islamabad on Thursday, according to a statement issued by Pakistan Air force (PAF).

AirTech’17 is the country’s largest technical and scientific Olympiad, being held at the main campus of Air University from December 7 to 10.

_*The air chief disclosed that Pakistan was currently working to manufacture next generation aircraft with the support of Chinese experts*_, adding that China was also providing technical support to Pakistan for launching the satellite programme.

*PAF can shoot down any drone violating Pakistani airspace, says air chief*

Pakistan annually manufactures 16 to 20 JF-17 aircraft, which are much better than F-16 planes in performance, said Aman.

Commenting over importance of national defence, he said Pakistan was on right track to curb terrorism and emphasised that security, stability and prosperity were interlinked in today’s world.

The air chief, in his keynote address on “Leadership, Education & Society Development”, said the purpose of an education system must be to introduce latest technologies and contribute something positive for the betterment of society as a whole.

He also urged the importance of industry-academia cooperation.

“No doubt, Pakistani students are talented, intelligent and hard-working but to achieve success in life goals, unconditional faith, firm commitment and tireless struggle are essential,” he emphasised.

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## Ahmet Pasha

This man needs an extension. Because the air force needs him.


ghazi52 said:


> *PAF to continue its journey of indigenization: Air Chief*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ISLAMABAD: Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal, Sohail Aman on Thursday termed the indigenously produced JF-17 Thunder a symbol of national pride and said that Pakistan Air Force (PAF)would continue its journey of indigenization to further improve country’s defensive capabilities.
> 
> He was speaking as chief guest at the opening ceremony of Air Tech Conference and Techno Show at Air University, Islamabad.
> 
> Air Vice Marshal (Retd), Faaiz Amir, Vice Chancellor of Air University was also present at the occasion.
> 
> The distinguished speakers gave presentations on different aspects of science and technology during the opening session of the conference.
> 
> The Air Chief said that Pakistan’s future was bright as the country’s youth were full of talent.
> 
> “We need to groom and guide them properly,” he said.
> 
> He said that Pakistani nation and the armed forces had fought the war against terrorists with supreme courage and determination, while rendering great sacrifices, which had resulted in wiping out this menace from the country.
> 
> Over three thousand students from around hundred educational institutions would present their projects in the four-day conference.
> 
> Competitions in 26 different disciplines including photography, aero modelling and robotics etc will also be held during the grand event.
> 
> The main objective of the conference is to highlight the importance of technology in the progress of the nation and offering opportunities to the talented students to showcase their hidden talent at both national and international levels.
> 
> A science exhibition, followed by a thrilling aero modelling show at F-9 Park, Islamabad will also be held on the last day of the conference.





The Eagle said:


> *'Pakistan to send astronauts into space in two years'*
> 
> By News Desk
> Published: December 7, 2017
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman addressing AirTech’17 Conference at Air University in Islamabad on Thursday. PHOTO: INP
> 
> Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman has announced that Pakistan will be able to send astronauts into space with the collaboration of China in the next two years.
> 
> He was addressing the inauguration session of AirTech’17 conference, hosted by Air University in Islamabad on Thursday, according to a statement issued by Pakistan Air force (PAF).
> 
> AirTech’17 is the country’s largest technical and scientific Olympiad, being held at the main campus of Air University from December 7 to 10.
> 
> _*The air chief disclosed that Pakistan was currently working to manufacture next generation aircraft with the support of Chinese experts*_, adding that China was also providing technical support to Pakistan for launching the satellite programme.
> 
> *PAF can shoot down any drone violating Pakistani airspace, says air chief*
> 
> Pakistan annually manufactures 16 to 20 JF-17 aircraft, which are much better than F-16 planes in performance, said Aman.
> 
> Commenting over importance of national defence, he said Pakistan was on right track to curb terrorism and emphasised that security, stability and prosperity were interlinked in today’s world.
> 
> The air chief, in his keynote address on “Leadership, Education & Society Development”, said the purpose of an education system must be to introduce latest technologies and contribute something positive for the betterment of society as a whole.
> 
> He also urged the importance of industry-academia cooperation.
> 
> “No doubt, Pakistani students are talented, intelligent and hard-working but to achieve success in life goals, unconditional faith, firm commitment and tireless struggle are essential,” he emphasised.

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## araz

Ahmet Pasha said:


> This man needs an extension. Because the air force needs him.


This would be a bad idea. I think he reflects the collective thought process of the force which means there are more ideas to come with the new chiefs. Extensions take that opportunity away and waste newer brains and ideas. His time has come and will go. Others need to step in and give their own blend of thought and vigour to push things forward.
A

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## Ahmet Pasha

Thats a very fair point. But I have two objections

1) We might not see same amount of leadership and enthisiasm displayed by him in a different air chief. Like we saw with Raheel handing over command to Bajwa.

2) I think that a politician should not choose the chief of any service arm. He should only select his cabinet members like the Minister of Defence for example.


araz said:


> This would be a bad idea. I think he reflects the collective thought process of the force which means there are more ideas to come with the new chiefs. Extensions take that opportunity away and waste newer brains and ideas. His time has come and will go. Others need to step in and give their own blend of thought and vigour to push things forward.
> A


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## fatman17

The latest news indicated that the JF-17B 02 prototype flew for the first time on December 7, 2017.
- Last Updated 12/8/17

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## Ahmet Pasha

It seems it has CFTs or maybe its just the color scheme.


fatman17 said:


> The latest news indicated that the JF-17B 02 prototype flew for the first time on December 7, 2017.
> - Last Updated 12/8/17
> View attachment 441699


----------



## fatman17

Ahmet Pasha said:


> It seems it has CFTs or maybe its just the color scheme.


Just primer paint and the dorsal hump holds electronics which made space for 2nd seat

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## araz

fatman17 said:


> Just primer paint and the dorsal hump holds electronics which made space for 2nd seat


Any thoughts/info on changes/modifications to second prototype?
A


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## Incog_nito

L-159 coming to PAF?


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## chaklala2

is it just me or the B model looks much more advanced than the As? Just has a much slicker look...

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Arshad Ahmed said:


> is it just me or the B model looks much more advanced than the As? Just has a much slicker look...


Looks are subjective, but yes, the JF-17B is more advanced. It is built with the three-axis FBW system, has a lower wing-loading and new areas for fuel (compensating for the loss caused by the second seat). I hope the JF-17 Block-III just uses the JF-17B airframe. You can make a single seat variant of the JF-17B much in the same way Mikoyan made single seat MiG-29KUB or Czech L-159A (i.e. retaining the same airframe, but replacing the rear seat with the spine extension) @messiach

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## fatman17

#PakistanAirForce is collaborating with #China on the 5th gen fighter (FGF) program. 60% of Project Azm staff is civilian. Production of the FGF (prototype) will begin in 5 years. https://t.co/RoJ1ip6YqX

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## khanasifm

?? It is more likely that paf /pac May be working on single engine variant ??

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## ziaulislam

khanasifm said:


> View attachment 442046
> 
> 
> ?? It is more likely that paf /pac May be working on single engine variant ??


where are we going to bring a very strong engine?
you would need at least an f-35 class engine, which we dot have
so almost certainly a twin engine


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## Advocate Pakistan

ziaulislam said:


> where are we going to bring a very strong engine?
> you would need at least an f-35 class engine, which we dot have
> so almost certainly a twin engine


A single engine in 140-150 KN class could be viable. For a light NGF, what is the thrust rating of Chinese engine to be used on J-20 in future.


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## blinder

This new AW139 was test flying 09oct17 at Venegono in Italy. 
Probably delivered by now in one of those An-124s 






Sorry if this was posted before.

Rgds
Erwin

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## TOPGUN

blinder said:


> This new AW139 was test flying 09oct17 at Venegono in Italy.
> Probably delivered by now in one of those An-124s
> 
> View attachment 442066
> 
> 
> Sorry if this was posted before.
> 
> Rgds
> Erwin




That is one bada$$ picture thx for sharing


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## ziaulislam

Advocate Pakistan said:


> A single engine in 140-150 KN class could be viable. For a light NGF, what is the thrust rating of Chinese engine to be used on J-20 in future.


well look at f-35 it has 180+ engine and still is considered under powered

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## fatman17

A Pakistani pilot participated in the flight test of JF-17B #01 on 7 December for the first time. https://t.co/YRTLu4VP87 https://t.co/O9gotl9xDy

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## Thorough Pro

Looks like the dorsal "hump" is not as pronounced as in the first example, any PS experts to do some visual/pixel calc?



fatman17 said:


> The latest news indicated that the JF-17B 02 prototype flew for the first time on December 7, 2017.
> - Last Updated 12/8/17
> View attachment 441699


----------



## Advocate Pakistan

ziaulislam said:


> where are we going to bring a very strong engine?
> you would need at least an f-35 class engine, which we dot have
> so almost certainly a twin engine


A single engine in 140-150 KN could be viable. For a light NGF, what is the thrust rating of Chinese engine to be used on J-20 in future.


ziaulislam said:


> well look at f-35 it has 180+ engine and still is considered under powered


It needs not necessarily to be in the category of F-35. A MTOW of 16-20 tons would suffice.


----------



## ziaulislam

Advocate Pakistan said:


> A single engine in 140-150 KN could be viable. For a light NGF, what is the thrust rating of Chinese engine to be used on J-20 in future.
> 
> It needs not necessarily to be in the category of F-35. A MTOW of 16-20 tons would suffice.


so why do people think F 35 is under powered and doesn't has enough space for weapons(which i dont think)
we need a viable fighter and i think it would at least need power comparable to f-35 because all weapons and fuel has to be inside and within the regular full flight parameters


----------



## Raider 21

Thorough Pro said:


> Looks like the dorsal "hump" is not as pronounced as in the first example, any PS experts to do some visual/pixel calc?


Probably for additional avionics or a slight re-design. Definitely looks better than the single-seat version in my opinion.


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## ziaulislam

i hope they use the dorsal hump for fuel avionics, move the landing gear towards the wings, get more hardpoints under the fuselage to total of around 9 and get an AESA/IRST


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## Thorough Pro

Probably I didn't expressed my self clearly. What I mean to say was the dorsal hump in 2nd plane of B version looks slightly smaller than the plane 1 of B version. I know it's more pronounced that single seat version and looks much better too.



Knuckles said:


> Probably for additional avionics or a slight re-design. Definitely looks better than the single-seat version in my opinion.


----------



## his5850

ziaulislam said:


> so why do people think F 35 is under powered and doesn't has enough space for weapons(which i dont think)
> we need a viable fighter and i think it would at least need power comparable to f-35 because all weapons and fuel has to be inside and within the regular full flight parameters



its wing area is smaller as compared to the fuselage it's not an under power plan but a fat plane never the less it's like F-4 Phantom bus with a big engine


----------



## CriticalThought

ziaulislam said:


> so why do people think F 35 is under powered and doesn't has enough space for weapons(which i dont think)
> we need a viable fighter and i think it would at least need power comparable to f-35 because all weapons and fuel has to be inside and within the regular full flight parameters



F-35 can only carry two AMRAAMs internally.

It also needs to perform the circus of VTOL, in addition to acting like an AEWACS and an EW unit, all the while remaining stealthy.


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## ziaulislam

CriticalThought said:


> F-35 can only carry two AMRAAMs internally.
> 
> It also needs to perform the circus of VTOL, in addition to acting like an AEWACS and an EW unit, all the while remaining stealthy.


but VTOL is limited model i am talking about regular F 35A


----------



## CriticalThought

ziaulislam said:


> but VTOL is limited model i am talking about regular F 35A



It is still required to perform too many things.


----------



## fatman17

The second prototype of the JF-17 Thunder’s twin-seat variant—the JF-17B—is currently undergoing flight tests in China. A total of three JF-17B prototypes are in production after requests by potential third-party customers for a twin-seat variant that could be used for training and evaluation purposes. Two prototypes will go to the Pakistan Air Force (PAF). In addition to a tandem seat, the JF-17B incorporates several design changes to its single-seat counterpart, including a modified vertical stabilizer, dorsal spine (potentially for fuel to compensate for the space lost from the additional seat), enlarged nose and three-axis fly-by-wire (FBW) flight control system.

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## fatman17



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## fatman17

A new image of the second JF-17B. https://t.co/Fi5DYH3ql9

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## alimobin memon

fatman17 said:


> A new image of the second JF-17B. https://t.co/Fi5DYH3ql9
> View attachment 442249


Pretty sure this variant with so many composites will have better payload and FGA capabilities. furthermore I like this design more than the single seat.


----------



## Ahmet Pasha

Looks just a tiny bit like kai golden eagle ( very minutely)


fatman17 said:


> A new image of the second JF-17B. https://t.co/Fi5DYH3ql9
> View attachment 442249


----------



## fatman17

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Looks just a tiny bit like kai golden eagle ( very minutely)


or JL9


----------



## fatman17

#Pakistan Air Force is ready to welcome a new member into its jet fighter family named JF-17B, a twin-seat variant of the famous JF-17 Thunder jet. The new fighter jet was previously seen undergoing tests in #China. https://t.co/31Dy1ou4g1


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## fatman17

Second PAC-CATIC JF-17B dual-seat prototype (S. No. 02) undergoing flight tests. Two JF-17Bs will be delivered to the #Pakistan Air Force in 2018. Serial production of the JF-17B will commence at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, Kamra in 2019. https://t.co/HAl4ljtRg1

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## BERKEKHAN2

fatman17 said:


> Second PAC-CATIC JF-17B dual-seat prototype (S. No. 02) undergoing flight tests. Two JF-17Bs will be delivered to the #Pakistan Air Force in 2018. Serial production of the JF-17B will commence at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, Kamra in 2019. https://t.co/HAl4ljtRg1


So when will JF 17 BLK 3 come ?


----------



## fatman17

Bakshi tufail said:


> So when will JF 17 BLK 3 come ?


Starting 2019

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## BERKEKHAN2

fatman17 said:


> Starting 2019


Prototype ??


----------



## fatman17

Bakshi tufail said:


> Prototype ??


Sir they will go to SBP, no prototype.

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## BERKEKHAN2

fatman17 said:


> Sir they will go to SBP, no prototype.


I am no sir [emoji6] 

Sent from my LS-5016 using Defence.pk mobile app


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## CriticalThought

fatman17 said:


> Starting 2019



So, we can start to see a semblance of Block 3 airframe in B version. Correct?

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## Khadim e Darul Ehsaan

Bakshi tufail said:


> I am no sir [emoji6]
> 
> Sent from my LS-5016 using Defence.pk mobile app


Sir is used to give respect to someone jaisay muhtaram ya sahib, it doesnot mean k ap apny teacher ya apni se barey umer k logu ko hi ye khty hn

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## MastanKhan

Bakshi tufail said:


> Prototype ??



Hi,

A prototype is of a brand new aircraft---why should there be a prototype of an existing aircraft?

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## mingle

khanasifm said:


> View attachment 442046
> 
> 
> ?? It is more likely that paf /pac May be working on single engine variant ??


Why not twin tale and twin engine


----------



## Ahmet Pasha

The single engine has been circulated around for quite some time. There was also an MoU signed by PAC with chinese which meant a stealth variant of JF17 will be developed.

Honestly if its not twin engined I will be really pissed.


mingle said:


> Why not twin tale and twin engine

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## mingle

Ahmet Pasha said:


> The single engine has been circulated around for quite some time. There was also an MoU signed by PAC with chinese which meant a stealth variant of JF17 will be developed.
> 
> Honestly if its not twin engined I will be really pissed.


Single engine does not make sence we need little bigger aircraft not size of JF 17.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Yes we need something that will replace F-16 in medium role and maybe agar kismat mein hua to air superiority fighter either domestic or imported.


mingle said:


> Single engine does not make sence we need little bigger aircraft not size of JF 17.

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## Bossman

Ahmet Pasha said:


> The single engine has been circulated around for quite some time. There was also an MoU signed by PAC with chinese which meant a stealth variant of JF17 will be developed.
> 
> Honestly if its not twin engined I will be really pissed.


Which MOU?


----------



## Army research

Most likely a clean sheet dual engine prototype will be made AVDI in 5 years, but what will bridge the gap till then


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## Ahmet Pasha

There was an MoU in 2010 which gave the option to make a stealth variant for JF17.


Bossman said:


> Which MOU?


----------



## fatman17

FC-31's Large-Area Display. https://t.co/MknRRapGqn

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## CriticalThought

fatman17 said:


> FC-31's Large-Area Display. https://t.co/MknRRapGqn
> View attachment 444125



Any chance if getting this for Thunder Block 3?

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

CriticalThought said:


> Any chance if getting this for Thunder Block 3?


Yep we heard it from several people (on this forum and beyond) that the Block-III will have a single panel MFD.

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## syed_yusuf

I highly doubt that JFT BLK 3 will going to have single mfd as been shown in many 5th gen fighters

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## Tank131

syed_yusuf said:


> I highly doubt that JFT BLK 3 will going to have single mfd as been shown in many 5th gen fighters



Why not? Gripen E/F has a single MFD.


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## Maxpane

beautiful


----------



## Maxpane

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 435906
> View attachment 435907
> View attachment 435908
> 
> J10D


sir where will be its weapon bay?


----------



## fatman17

Maxpane said:


> sir where will be its weapon bay?


underbelly I think


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## Maxpane

fatman17 said:


> underbelly I think


sir is there enough place?


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## Human One

Something about the PAF from an old magazine here.

*Air International 1981-04*

http://aviadejavu.ru/Site/Arts/Art7242.htm


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## fatman17

Maxpane said:


> sir is there enough place?


I'm afraid I'm not an expert on F31


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## Maxpane

fatman17 said:


> I'm afraid I'm not an expert on F31


oh ok sir


----------



## fatman17



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## Maxpane

new suadron no28


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## fatman17

J-10C + TVC nozzle unveiled !!

@xinfengcao @OedoSoldier @HenriKenhmann @CombatAir https://t.co/j2ujRkG8yH

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## araz

fatman17 said:


> J-10C + TVC nozzle unveiled !!
> 
> @xinfengcao @OedoSoldier @HenriKenhmann @CombatAir https://t.co/j2ujRkG8yH
> View attachment 444579


they maybe trying newer things but somehow I dont see a J10 coming to the market with a TVC.
A


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## Advocate Pakistan

Maxpane said:


> sir where will be its weapon bay?


No weapons bay, it was a semi stealth concept. Weapons on hardpoints.


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## Maxpane

Advocate Pakistan said:


> No weapons bay, it was a semi stealth concept. Weapons on hardpoints.


really


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## The Fist



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## Khadim e Darul Ehsaan

The Fist said:


>


This man is very nice and he seems very smart and intelligent comander


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## fatman17

Sherdils at newly inaugurated PAF Base,Bholari. https://t.co/nOCf1anAiH

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## fatman17

Identify this 50s fighter


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## Inception-06

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 444944
> 
> Identify this 50s fighter





*Hawker Hunter*

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## Amigator

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 444944
> 
> Identify this 50s fighter


*Dassault Étendard IV*
*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Étendard_IV*

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## fatman17

Ulla said:


> *Hawker Hunter*


No

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## fatman17

Amigator said:


> *Dassault Étendard IV*
> *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Étendard_IV*


No

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## fatman17

Hint. its UK manufacturing

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## Inception-06

fatman17 said:


> Hint. its UK manufacturing




Harrier ?


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## fatman17

Ulla said:


> Harrier ?


No sir

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## Inception-06

fatman17 said:


> No sir




Last try 
*Supermarine Swift*


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## Talon

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 444944
> 
> Identify this 50s fighter


Supermarine scimitar..

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## fatman17

Ulla said:


> Last try
> *Supermarine Swift*


Getting warm

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## fatman17

Hodor said:


> Supermarine scimitar..


Bingo.

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## fatman17



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## khanasifm

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 445009



Its a few miles outside Hyderabad so not sure why Karachi perhaps nearest mob and largest city ??


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## fatman17

Falcons from No.19 Sqn 'Sherdils', in their new home - PAF Base Bholari #PakistanDefence https://t.co/tFjCfpa1Ue

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## fatman17

khanasifm said:


> Its a few miles outside Hyderabad so not sure why Karachi perhaps nearest mob and largest city ??


Actually all combat sqdns to be relocated to this base. masroor to be converted to transport hub as chaklala getting congested.

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## fatman17

JF-17 Block Ⅲ project proceeded to the initial design stage at the end of October, a key milestone for the project. https://t.co/ZwyIdREtfU

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## Talon

fatman17 said:


> Actually all combat sqdns to be relocated to this base. masroor to be converted to transport hub as chaklala getting congested.


For real?
Bcuz civil traffic of OPRN will soon be shifted to the new airport.

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## fatman17

Hodor said:


> For real?
> Bcuz civil traffic of OPRN will soon be shifted to the new airport.


That's the plan. The 23 odd transports may be split between chaklala and masroor.

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## fatman17

fatman17 said:


> That's the plan. The 23 odd transports may be split between chaklala and masroor.


The other thought is to shift assets from drigh road, navy as well as airforce to masroor, because of the population around drigh road.

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## Furqan Sarwar

Sir how can they shift all combat squadrons from Masroor to Bholari as it is a small airbase. At Max Bholari can accommodate 2 squadrons

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## fatman17

Furqan Sarwar said:


> Sir how can they shift all combat squadrons from Masroor to Bholari as it is a small airbase. At Max Bholari can accommodate 2 squadrons


At this time yes you are right, however extension is planned.

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## fatman17

Two #PAF officers promoted as Air Vice Marshal

Government of Pakistan promoted two Pakistan Air Force (PAF) officers Air Commodore Haseeb Gul & Air Commodore Zuliquar Ahmad Qureshi to the rank of Air Vice Marshal. https://t.co/BF9scytePk

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## fatman17

100 Up for JF17 Block l and ll.

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## CriticalThought

fatman17 said:


> Two #PAF officers promoted as Air Vice Marshal
> 
> Government of Pakistan promoted two Pakistan Air Force (PAF) officers Air Commodore Haseeb Gul & Air Commodore Zuliquar Ahmad Qureshi to the rank of Air Vice Marshal. https://t.co/BF9scytePk
> View attachment 445268



Is this the same Haseeb who led the recent Shaheen VI contingent from Pakistan?


----------



## Furqan Sarwar

CriticalThought said:


> Is this the same Haseeb who led the recent Shaheen VI contingent from Pakistan?


Don't think so as Haseeb Paracha has the command of Southern Sector

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## fatman17

Air Marshal Asghar Khan passed away.

"To Allah we belong and to Him we shall return". May ALLAH reward him for his work for the country. Ameen! https://t.co/fgF03vPQiF

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## raahaat7

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 445678
> View attachment 445679
> View attachment 445680
> 
> 100 Up for JF17 Block l and ll.


Sir, how much time will it take to proceed to the prototype stage or will there be no prototype? When should we expect our first b3 copy?


----------



## fatman17



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## fatman17

raahaat7 said:


> Sir, how much time will it take to proceed to the prototype stage or will there be no prototype? When should we expect our first b3 copy?


No prototype


----------



## ghazi52

PAF cheif visits Air defence headquarter .
The move came after PAF cheif reiterated his resolve to shoot down any US drones entering Pakistani air space.


----------



## BERKEKHAN2

MALE UAV made in kamra ??

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## BERKEKHAN2

Bakshi tufail said:


> MALE UAV made in kamra ??
> View attachment 446530


@fatman17


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## Advocate Pakistan

Bakshi tufail said:


> MALE UAV made in kamra ??
> View attachment 446530


CH-4 or 5??
@Bilal Khan (Quwa) what's the news from your side about this mockup?


----------



## blain2

Khadim e Darul Ehsaan said:


> This man is very nice and he seems very smart and intelligent comander


He is a very competent commander. The key here is that he will put his boys on the line but the end game is not in the control of the PAF. That is something that has to be handled via diplomacy. Going up against US/ISAF is not a simple task.

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## Maxpane

hope we should get it soon


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Advocate Pakistan said:


> CH-4 or 5??
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) what's the news from your side about this mockup?


Seems to be a different design than CH-4 or CH-5.

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## Zarvan

Advocate Pakistan said:


> CH-4 or 5??
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) what's the news from your side about this mockup?


No it's our own design not CH-4 or CH-5 I hope it is Armed Drone not just surveillance


----------



## CriticalThought

Bakshi tufail said:


> MALE UAV made in kamra ??
> View attachment 446530



Couple of points. The dorsal surface follows optimal aerodynamic configuration. The twin tails, thin and long wings seem to favor Low Observability. The non-conventional length to width ratio (because of very long wings) has the potential of throwing off legacy detection algorithms.

The underbelly isn't visible so can't say much. It would be interesting to know the composition in terms of materials used. Hopefully a high percentage of composites will be present.

I can't see any hard points on the wings. So payload may be completely internal. At this point, it is hard to say whether it will be armed or not, although it doesn't make sense to design only a surveillance drone.

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## Ahmet Pasha

IMO it kinda looks like TAI anka


CriticalThought said:


> Couple of points. The dorsal surface follows optimal aerodynamic configuration. The twin tails, thin and long wings seem to favor Low Observability. The non-conventional length to width ratio (because of very long wings) has the potential of throwing off legacy detection algorithms.
> 
> The underbelly isn't visible so can't say much. It would be interesting to know the composition in terms of materials used. Hopefully a high percentage of composites will be present.
> 
> I can't see any hard points on the wings. So payload may be completely internal. At this point, it is hard to say whether it will be armed or not, although it doesn't make sense to design only a surveillance drone.


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

CriticalThought said:


> Couple of points. The dorsal surface follows optimal aerodynamic configuration. The twin tails, thin and long wings seem to favor Low Observability. The non-conventional length to width ratio (because of very long wings) has the potential of throwing off legacy detection algorithms.
> 
> The underbelly isn't visible so can't say much. It would be interesting to know the composition in terms of materials used. Hopefully a high percentage of composites will be present.
> 
> I can't see any hard points on the wings. So payload may be completely internal. At this point, it is hard to say whether it will be armed or not, although it doesn't make sense to design only a surveillance drone.


It might be a preliminary design. If you look through the video (or other screenshots) you'll notice the staff working with other designs and concepts. I'm not sure about an internal-only payload though - the fuselage doesn't have enough width to sustain it. IMO an internal-only payload would likely result in a blended-wing delta-wing drone, unless if you're aiming for a minimal payload (e.g. Kratos Valkyrie). 



Ahmet Pasha said:


> IMO it kinda looks like TAI anka


In general a lot of these sub-500 kg payload MALE UAVs are inspired from the MQ-1 Predator.

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## Advocate Pakistan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Seems to be a different design than CH-4 or CH-5.


The rear fuselage seems very very thin. See the one attached to the wall beside AvDI plaque.

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## JamD

I count at least 3 parallel UAV programs in Pakistan. Not sure if 3 is too many. 
NDC's Burraq, AWC's Shahpar, PAF's unnamed MALE. Also I think it's too early for the PAF's MALE as these just look like crude 3d models just made for conceptual design and are very very early stages in the production life cycle. Just for comparison here's a tiny picture of the shahpar's 3D model which shows more detail

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## Human One

Pakistan Army paratroops leave the twin doors of an (ex-Iranian AF) C-130B.






http://aviadejavu.ru/Site/Arts/Art7242.htm


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## Maxpane

woow


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## fatman17

Air Platforms
*Wing Loong I UAV spotted at Pakistani airbase*
*Gabriel Dominguez and Sean O’Connor* - Jane's Defence Weekly
09 January 2018

Commercial satellite imagery captured on 24 November 2017 shows that the Pakistani military may be operating the Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) Wing Loong I strike-capable, medium-altitude long-endurance (MALE) unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV).

The image shows what appears to be a single Wing Loong I in front of a hangar at the Pakistan Air Force’s (PAF’s) MM Alam airbase in Mianwali District – which is located in Pakistan’s Punjab Province – and confirms an online report published on 5 January by the Center for the Study of the Drone at Bard College in New York.

The South Asian country’s UAV programme, which got under way in 2007 with the acquisition of Leonardo Airborne and Space Systems Falco fixed-wing medium-altitude/endurance surveillance UAVs, has been expanding in recent years with the arrival and deployment of the Burraq and Shahpar unmanned aerial systems (UASs).


----------



## Ahmet Pasha

What if they scope out PDF for news???
That'd be freekin hilarious.


fatman17 said:


> Air Platforms
> *Wing Loong I UAV spotted at Pakistani airbase*
> *Gabriel Dominguez and Sean O’Connor* - Jane's Defence Weekly
> 09 January 2018
> 
> Commercial satellite imagery captured on 24 November 2017 shows that the Pakistani military may be operating the Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) Wing Loong I strike-capable, medium-altitude long-endurance (MALE) unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV).
> 
> The image shows what appears to be a single Wing Loong I in front of a hangar at the Pakistan Air Force’s (PAF’s) MM Alam airbase in Mianwali District – which is located in Pakistan’s Punjab Province – and confirms an online report published on 5 January by the Center for the Study of the Drone at Bard College in New York.
> 
> The South Asian country’s UAV programme, which got under way in 2007 with the acquisition of Leonardo Airborne and Space Systems Falco fixed-wing medium-altitude/endurance surveillance UAVs, has been expanding in recent years with the arrival and deployment of the Burraq and Shahpar unmanned aerial systems (UASs).


----------



## CriticalThought

Which aircraft are these?






And what's going on with these F-16s??? We actually upgrade F-16s in Pakistan?????






@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Bilal Khan 777 @Windjammer


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

CriticalThought said:


> Which aircraft are these?
> 
> View attachment 447332
> 
> 
> And what's going on with these F-16s??? We actually upgrade F-16s in Pakistan?????
> 
> View attachment 447333
> 
> 
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Bilal Khan 777 @Windjammer


Just random photos to explain a point (having Kamra manufacture combat aircraft and commercial airliners), nothing to do with PAC.

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## Amigator

CriticalThought said:


> Which aircraft are these?
> 
> View attachment 447332
> 
> 
> And what's going on with these F-16s??? We actually upgrade F-16s in Pakistan?????
> 
> View attachment 447333
> 
> 
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Bilal Khan 777 @Windjammer


Man these F-16s are not being upgraded in Pakistan. This frame is of Lockhead Matin Assembly Unit. Behind aircrafts along wall USA flags are hanging.

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## CriticalThought

Amigator said:


> Man these F-16s are not being upgraded in Pakistan. This frame is of Lockhead Matin Assembly Unit. Behind aircrafts along wall USA flags are hanging.



Good catch on the flags


----------



## Amigator

Amigator said:


> Man these F-16s are not being upgraded in Pakistan. This frame is of Lockhead Matin Assembly Unit. Behind aircrafts along wall USA flags are hanging.


Wish we had such Large Manufacturing & Assembly units in Pakistan. But series of big sales needed for that.


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## ghazi52

In 2013, the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Sea Survival School (SSS) purchased two 4-passenger Neoteric Rescue Hovercraft for security patrol along the Korangi Creek Air Force Base shoreline in Karachi, Pakistan. The curved shoreline contains mudflats and mangroves that make it inaccessible to vehicles other than hovercraft.

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## ghazi52

RAF Korangi Creek Station.












RAF ground crew take a towing cable out to Consolidated Catalina Mark IV, JX301 'P', of No. 191 Squadron RAF, which has been moored to a warping buoy prior to being hauled in for inspection at Korangi Creek, near Karachi, India..

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## Windjammer

PAF No 17 Squadron (Tigers) has moved out of it's Samungli Base in Baluchistan and stationed in Peshawar.
It could be run up to raising of athe new JF-17 Squadron (28), which reportedly will be based in Samungli.

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## Beethoven

Windjammer said:


> PAF No 17 Squadron (Tigers) has moved out of it's Samungli Base in Baluchistan and stationed in Peshawar.
> It could be run up to raising of athe new JF-17 Squadron (28), which reportedly will be based in Samungli.
> 
> 
> View attachment 447417


swaad laa ditta paaji....my city is going to get a new jf-17 squadron....wow i cant believe am going to get the chance of seeing this beauty live....

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## Talon

Windjammer said:


> PAF No 17 Squadron (Tigers) has moved out of it's Samungli Base in Baluchistan and stationed in Peshawar.
> It could be run up to raising of athe new JF-17 Squadron (28), which reportedly will be based in Samungli.
> 
> 
> View attachment 447417


As I predicted..


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## Ahmet Pasha

Hey dude so if I am accepted into PAF is there a high chance of me flying JF17 in future???


Hodor said:


> As I predicted..

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## Talon

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Hey dude so if I am accepted into PAF is there a high chance of me flying JF17 in future???


So ur an intermediate student or even below than that?



Windjammer said:


> PAF No 17 Squadron (Tigers) has moved out of it's Samungli Base in Baluchistan and stationed in Peshawar.
> It could be run up to raising of athe new JF-17 Squadron (28), which reportedly will be based in Samungli.
> 
> 
> View attachment 447417


Actually the ceremony was held yesterday...the sqdrn had already moved to Peshawar,atleast a month ago.



Beethoven said:


> swaad laa ditta paaji....my city is going to get a new jf-17 squadron....wow i cant believe am going to get the chance of seeing this beauty live....


JF17 have been flying in Quetta for about an year now...u must be lazy in observing the sky.

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## Ahmet Pasha

I just asked a simple question man. Why u getting hot bro????


Hodor said:


> So ur an intermediate student or even below than that?
> 
> 
> Actually the ceremony was held yesterday...the sqdrn had already moved to Peshawar,atleast a month ago.
> 
> 
> JF17 have been flying in Quetta for about an year now...u must be lazy in observing the sky.


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## Talon

Ahmet Pasha said:


> I just asked a simple question man. Why u getting hot bro????


No I am not getting HOT...i just asked a counter question,which u didnt answer

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## Ahmet Pasha

I'm in Pakistani equivalent of FSc


Hodor said:


> No I am not getting HOT...i just asked a counter question,which u didnt answer


----------



## fatman17

*Pakistan & China’s JF-17 Fighter Program*
Jan 10, 2018 04:58 UTC by Defense Industry Daily staff
_Latest update [?]_

Dubai 2013


*January 10/18: Exports-Nigeria, Myanmar *Nigerian budget documents for 2018 show that three JF-17 Thunder fighter aircraft will be procured




from the Chengdu Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, making it the first export purchaser of the fighter to be publicly named. $36 million has been earmarked as partial payment for the purchase, and will also include support equipment and spares. While no official announcement has been names, a Pakistani air force official told FlightGlobal at last year’s Paris Air Show that a “contract had been signed” with an Asian country, and Chinese social media have shown a JF-17 in Myanmar air force markings, and the junta are expected to add 16 models to their inventory. Nigeria is also expected to buy two AgustaWestland AW109 helicopters in 2018, as well as undergoing depot maintenance for two Dassault Alpha Jets and a Lockheed Martin C-130H.

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## fatman17

Military Capabilities

Nigeria completes Super Mushshak deliveries

Gareth Jennings, London - Jane's Defence Weekly

14 January 2018

The Nigerian Air Force (NAF) has received a further five Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) Kamra Super Mushshak basic trainer aircraft to add to the five delivered in mid-2017.

The second batch of piston-engined aircraft arrived at NAF Base Kaduna on 14 January having been airlifted from Pakistan via Ilyushin Il-76 ‘Candid’ transport aircraft, the air force’s director of public relations announced. NAF Base Kaduna is home to the 401 Flying Training School.

The aircraft will now be assembled before joining the first five that were delivered in July 2017 (four Super Mushshak’s had previously been loaned to the NAF, and have since been returned to Pakistan).

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## fatman17

Today, 4th martyrdom anniversary of Wing Commander Jamal Afridi Shaheed and Flight Lieutenant Saad Salman Shaheed. https://t.co/ndX0Pa8os4

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## ghazi52

Drigh Road air base. Now Faisal air base Karachi.


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## Amigator

Pakistan Drone spotted on flight radar namely "BURAQ1". Take off from Peshawar, in ISB airspace at moment.

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## Ahmet Pasha

ISR???
BTW isnt it sensitive info??


Amigator said:


> Pakistan Drone spotted on flight radar namely "BURAQ1". Take off from Peshawar, in ISB airspace at moment.
> 
> View attachment 448525

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## Amigator

Ahmet Pasha said:


> ISR???
> BTW isnt it sensitive info??


Yes it shouldn't be visible on a website available to general public to track flights. I never see any fighter jet or fighter helicopter ever on this website.

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## Khadim e Darul Ehsaan

Amigator said:


> Pakistan Drone spotted on flight radar namely "BURAQ1". Take off from Peshawar, in ISB airspace at moment.
> 
> View attachment 448525


If it can show small drone then this world flights map can also show military aircrafts movement 
Is it right ???


----------



## Amigator

Khadim e Darul Ehsaan said:


> If it can show small drone then this world flights map can also show military aircrafts movement
> Is it right ???


Maybe drones are shown in past on this website. But I never saw a military jet with its identity. However I saw helicopters but for private users.

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## Talon

Amigator said:


> Pakistan Drone spotted on flight radar namely "BURAQ1". Take off from Peshawar, in ISB airspace at moment.
> 
> View attachment 448525





Khadim e Darul Ehsaan said:


> If it can show small drone then this world flights map can also show military aircrafts movement
> Is it right ???



Flight radar 24 uses ADS Transponder technology to track airplanes so only those aircrafts are visible on it which are equipped with ADS.

In case of PAF all of its transport aircrafts are equipped with it as they have much interaction with civil airspace(but also appear when landing at PAF bases such as Mushaf) though in some cases they turn it off e.g c130s operating at TCS,Pindi.Dassault Falcon is also sometimes seen on FR24 so spotting a UAV isnt something special.

As far as fighters are concerned,they never appear on FR24 but u can hear the comms at Liveatc if u get lucky.

Also naval ATRs are also visible on FR24.
Even PAAs helis are sometimes visible.



Ahmet Pasha said:


> ISR???
> BTW isnt it sensitive info??


Nope not sensitive info..

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## Ahmet Pasha

Seen a lot of footage of different aircraft from different airforces flying the mach loop. I was wondering if PAF has ever flown through the mach loop???
@Windjammer @fatman17


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## SQ8

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Seen a lot of footage of different aircraft from different airforces flying the mach loop. I was wondering if PAF has ever flown through the mach loop???
> @Windjammer @fatman17


Never, except a few exhange cadets getting a chance.


----------



## Safriz

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Seen a lot of footage of different aircraft from different airforces flying the mach loop. I was wondering if PAF has ever flown through the mach loop???
> @Windjammer @fatman17


Only NATO does it.
I been there twice with my camera. Only saw an Apache. The flights are weather depending and both times I was there the Welsh weather struck.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Do we have a low flying range of our own???


Oscar said:


> Never, except a few exhange cadets getting a chance.





شاھین میزایل said:


> Only NATO does it.
> I been there twice with my camera. Only saw an Apache. The flights are weather depending and both times I was there the Welsh weather struck.


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## SQ8

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Do we have a low flying range of our own???


We fly low wherever we want except over populated areas

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## Ahmet Pasha

I once saw Blk52 over Islamabad/Pindi. It was during Salala Fiasco.


Oscar said:


> We fly low wherever we want except over populated areas


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## Safriz

Ahmet Pasha said:


> I once saw Blk52 over Islamabad/Pindi. It was during Salala Fiasco.


We grew up watching very low flying PAF jets over our houses. It was very common occurrence in the 80s

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## Raider 21

Oscar said:


> Never, except a few exhange cadets getting a chance.


They are not exchange cadets but sent on a deputation course there either as students, and sometimes there are instructor pilots who fly at the Central Flying School on Tucanos. RAF aviation cadets do not attend PAF Academy for flight training hence no concept of exchange cadets.


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## Windjammer

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Do we have a low flying range of our own???


I did hear of one certain incident where a farmer around Sargodha wasn't too happy when some of his crop went up in smoke from the heat of a low flying jet.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Whoa dude is that really possible?? Lmao


Windjammer said:


> I did hear of one certain incident where a farmer around Sargodha wasn't too happy when some of his crop went up in smoke from the heat of a low flying jet.


----------



## Windjammer

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Whoa dude is that really possible?? Lmao


What i was told that initially some trees got it which then spread to the field.
Check out how an F-16 in full afterburner dries up the ground 100s feet away.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Hell yea...freakin awesome 


Windjammer said:


> What i was told that initially some trees got it which then spread to the field.
> Check out how an F-16 in full afterburner dries up the ground 100s feet away.


----------



## Talon

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Do we have a low flying range of our own???


Every where...often on villages and sometimes on smaller cities..I once saw an F16 chasing a Mirage at low alt(*best thing i hv ever seen*)...Last year 4 ship F16s buzzed very low above my city(a few months after Twining Ceremony of 9 sqn and even during that they flew low)...both time,these were from Mushaf AB.

Also one time a friend of mine(now Mirage operator) flew his K8(Mianwali based) multiple times at very low alt during a night mission over our city(to make his parents proud...not a good way to do but every pilot desires this)
Also seen F7s and even IL78 at low alt.

So yeah low flying is just a normal thing.

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## SQ8

Knuckles said:


> They are not exchange cadets but sent on a deputation course there either as students, and sometimes there are instructor pilots who fly at the Central Flying School on Tucanos. RAF aviation cadets do not attend PAF Academy for flight training hence no concept of exchange cadets.


Long story short- no PAF roundel ever went through the mach loop.


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## Raider 21

Oscar said:


> Long story short- no PAF roundel ever went through the mach loop.


I know 2 who have in fast jets but as civilians....both former PAF.



Hodor said:


> Every where...often on villages and sometimes on smaller cities..I once saw an F16 chasing a Mirage at low alt(*best thing i hv ever seen*)...Last year 4 ship F16s buzzed very low above my city(a few months after Twining Ceremony of 9 sqn and even during that they flew low)...both time,these were from Mushaf AB.
> 
> Also one time a friend of mine(now Mirage operator) flew his K8(Mianwali based) multiple times at very low alt during a night mission over our city(to make his parents proud...not a good way to do but every pilot desires this)
> Also seen F7s and even IL78 at low alt.
> 
> So yeah low flying is just a normal thing.


Yeah....recall seeing F-7 IPs flying really low at a lake near Mianwali when recovering after a sortie at the range. Saw F-16s low over the canal beside Kamra. My old man flew an F-6 near a family wedding that he couldn't attend. T-37 flyovers from him were common as my grandparents lived close to Risalpur (1989).

Separate one here....Mirage 2000-9s by the coast near Dubai. They were flying about 50 feet above the water...two ship and the best part of all it was during sunset. Beautiful sight.

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## fatman17

With domestic #WS20 engine clear for production, #Y20 strategic lifter can offer ample opportunities to Pakistan armed force to enhance its aerial transport capabilities. Currently Pakistan rely on fleet of C130 with much less cargo capacity backed by Il78MRTT. https://t.co/ymn4F9pd7M

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## CriticalThought

fatman17 said:


> With domestic #WS20 engine clear for production, #Y20 strategic lifter can offer ample opportunities to Pakistan armed force to enhance its aerial transport capabilities. Currently Pakistan rely on fleet of C130 with much less cargo capacity backed by Il78MRTT. https://t.co/ymn4F9pd7M
> View attachment 449527



Would love to see Pak Army formations practicing aerial drops from this bird.

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## fatman17

Air Commodore (R) Sattar Alvi presents tail of #Israeli Air Force Mirage to the PAF Chief, Sattar shot down Capt Lutz's Mirage over Golan heights in #Syria during the Arab Israeli conflict 1974. This will be permanently displayed at PAF Museum. https://t.co/8DtHQFWE0U

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## mingle

fatman17 said:


> Air Commodore (R) Sattar Alvi presents tail of #Israeli Air Force Mirage to the PAF Chief, Sattar shot down Capt Lutz's Mirage over Golan heights in #Syria during the Arab Israeli conflict 1974. This will be permanently displayed at PAF Museum. https://t.co/8DtHQFWE0U
> View attachment 449620


Wow that something new nice.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

CriticalThought said:


> Would love to see Pak Army formations practicing aerial drops from this bird.





fatman17 said:


> With domestic #WS20 engine clear for production, #Y20 strategic lifter can offer ample opportunities to Pakistan armed force to enhance its aerial transport capabilities. Currently Pakistan rely on fleet of C130 with much less cargo capacity backed by Il78MRTT. https://t.co/ymn4F9pd7M
> View attachment 449527


In my opinion, I think the PAF should instead keep an eye on the Antonov An-70. Ukraine is working to revive that program - i.e. upgrade its avionics (via the West) and push into serial production. Unlike the IL-76 and Y-20, the An-70 provides that heavy-lift element (47 tons) in hot-and-high environments (e.g. Northern Areas/Kashmir). 

The An-70's success rests on scale. It would be nice to see Ukraine, Pakistan and a couple others - e.g. South Africa, a private Chinese freighter firm, etc - form a consortium for the An-70 wherein they pool orders and split production and support work. If successful, we'd have the poor man's A400M.

For the tanker role, it would be best to find some surplus commercial airliners on the market (e.g. A330) and fit them with two hose-and-drogue pods. Basically, consider working with Ukraine to integrate the UPAZ to the A330. This way, the PAF would get a decent long-range tanker with much better fuel efficiency than the guzzlers that are the IL-78. Maybe consider fitting SIGINT equipment to those airliners too ... so whenever they're up in the air doing AAR, they're also picking up frequencies to add to Pakistan's threat library.

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## Ahmet Pasha

What do you think a trubo prop heavy lift offers over the turbo fan heavy lift apart from obvious fuel efficiency??


Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> In my opinion, I think the PAF should instead keep an eye on the Antonov An-70. Ukraine is working to revive that program - i.e. upgrade its avionics (via the West) and push into serial production. Unlike the IL-76 and Y-20, the An-70 provides that heavy-lift element (47 tons) in hot-and-high environments (e.g. Northern Areas/Kashmir).
> 
> The An-70's success rests on scale. It would be nice to see Ukraine, Pakistan and a couple others - e.g. South Africa, a private Chinese freighter firm, etc - form a consortium for the An-70 wherein they pool orders and split production and support work. If successful, we'd have the poor man's A400M.
> 
> For the tanker role, it would be best to find some surplus commercial airliners on the market (e.g. A330) and fit them with two hose-and-drogue pods. Basically, consider working with Ukraine to integrate the UPAZ to the A330. This way, the PAF would get a decent long-range tanker with much better fuel efficiency than the guzzlers that are the IL-78. Maybe consider fitting SIGINT equipment to those airliners too ... so whenever they're up in the air doing AAR, they're also picking up frequencies to add to Pakistan's threat library.



Also has PAF ever given thought to having smaller cargoes like c-27, casa series, kc-390 in big numbers?? @Windjammer @Bilal Khan (Quwa)


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## fatman17

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> In my opinion, I think the PAF should instead keep an eye on the Antonov An-70. Ukraine is working to revive that program - i.e. upgrade its avionics (via the West) and push into serial production. Unlike the IL-76 and Y-20, the An-70 provides that heavy-lift element (47 tons) in hot-and-high environments (e.g. Northern Areas/Kashmir).
> 
> The An-70's success rests on scale. It would be nice to see Ukraine, Pakistan and a couple others - e.g. South Africa, a private Chinese freighter firm, etc - form a consortium for the An-70 wherein they pool orders and split production and support work. If successful, we'd have the poor man's A400M.
> 
> For the tanker role, it would be best to find some surplus commercial airliners on the market (e.g. A330) and fit them with two hose-and-drogue pods. Basically, consider working with Ukraine to integrate the UPAZ to the A330. This way, the PAF would get a decent long-range tanker with much better fuel efficiency than the guzzlers that are the IL-78. Maybe consider fitting SIGINT equipment to those airliners too ... so whenever they're up in the air doing AAR, they're also picking up frequencies to add to Pakistan's threat library.


I believe Ukraine has offered JV in this particular area.

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## fatman17

Ahmet Pasha said:


> What do you think a trubo prop heavy lift offers over the turbo fan heavy lift apart from obvious fuel efficiency??
> 
> 
> Also has PAF ever given thought to having smaller cargoes like c-27, casa series, kc-390 in big numbers?? @Windjammer @Bilal Khan (Quwa)


At the end of the day cost is the prohibitive factor.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Time has shown that if armed forces really really need somwthing they find a way to get it.


fatman17 said:


> At the end of the day cost is the prohibitive factor.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Ahmet Pasha said:


> What do you think a trubo prop heavy lift offers over the turbo fan heavy lift apart from obvious fuel efficiency??
> 
> 
> Also has PAF ever given thought to having smaller cargoes like c-27, casa series, kc-390 in big numbers?? @Windjammer @Bilal Khan (Quwa)


Turboprop is better for hot-and-high conditions. Jets don't do well with thin and warm air (in high altitude areas, which are a major facet of Pakistan's operating environment). Furthermore, the An-70 can also take-off from a shorter (and less prepared) runway than a typical jet air-lifter. 

As for smaller transports, the PAF had bought the CN235 with the plan of building out the fleet - but other priorities and budget problems shelved that plan. However, as long as that aircraft (CN235) is in service, the infrastructure will be there should the PAF ever decide to buy more.

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## ChineseTiger1986

The J-31 will officially become Pakistan's 5th gen fighter, and China has decided to transfer the technology of the WS-19 to Pakistan.

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## Avicenna

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The J-31 will officially become Pakistan's 5th gen fighter, and China has decided to transfer the technology of the WS-19 to Pakistan.



Sauces?


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## TOPGUN

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The J-31 will officially become Pakistan's 5th gen fighter, and China has decided to transfer the technology of the WS-19 to Pakistan.



Is that really official Chinese Tiger ?

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## ChineseTiger1986

This news was provided by our military insider.

The WS-19 is better than the EJ200 with an afterburner thrust of 120KN and a TWR of 10.

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## Raider 21

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> This news was provided by our military insider.
> 
> *The WS-19 is better than the EJ200 with an afterburner thrust of 120KN and a TWR of 10.*


Let's hope the jet engines don't "jet" themselves out of the aircraft on take-off during final handling runs if it has a TWR of 10.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Knuckles said:


> Let's hope the jet engines don't "jet" themselves out of the aircraft on take-off during final handling runs if it has a TWR of 10.



lol, the Chinese engine has an excellent record, and it hasn't involved in any incident so far.

China has already handled the WS-15, and it is flying smoothly on the J-20, so it can indeed handle the WS-19 properly.

The military leaders of Pakistan have by far more confidence on China's military products than you guys.

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## Raider 21

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> lol, the Chinese engine has an excellent record, and it hasn't involved in any incident so far.
> 
> China has already handled the WS-15, and it is flying smoothly on the J-20, so it can indeed handle the WS-19 properly.
> 
> *The military leaders of Pakistan have by far more confidence on China's military products than you guys.*


I hope the TWR numbers make sense hence my comment above. I have never heard of ratio that is 10. And no need to tell me about confidence in the Chinese military products. They're great in their own way but the reliance towards Chinese military products come strictly due to the issues of cost and availability, at least for Pakistan armed forces. And I have no clue by what you mean "you guys". Cheers !!!

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## HRK

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The J-31 will officially become Pakistan's 5th gen fighter, and China has decided to transfer the technology of the WS-19 to Pakistan.


source ....???


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## ChineseTiger1986

Knuckles said:


> I hope the TWR numbers make sense hence my comment above. I have never heard of ratio that is 10. And no need to tell me about confidence in the Chinese military products......my old man flew F-7s and F-6s with over a 1100 hours combined...very fortunate to have him come home. Hope you understand my friend. Cheers !!!



When China was building the F-6/F-7, it also built the warships like this.










Now China is building the J-20 and J-31, and it is building the warships like this.









HRK said:


> source ....???



As I explained earlier, from our military insider.

And you will see your announcement from your official media later.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The J-31 will officially become Pakistan's 5th gen fighter, and China has decided to *transfer the technology of the WS-19 to Pakistan.*


Does this mean that Pakistan will get the ability to manufacture the WS-19?

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## ChineseTiger1986

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Does this mean that Pakistan will get the ability to manufacture the WS-19?



This is the condition proposed by the PAF to select the J-31 as their official 5th gen fighter.

China has agreed to bring the production line, and also agree to train the high skilled workers to assemble the engine for Pakistan.

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## araz

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> This is the condition proposed by the PAF to select the J-31 as their official 5th gen fighter.
> 
> China has agreed to bring the production line, and also agree to train the high skilled workers to assemble the engine for Pakistan.


So you are telling us that tech acquired after spending many billion dollars will just be transferred to Pakistan for it to procure the J31. You sir are either very nieve or are deceiving this board with rumour monngering. The reason is the seriously hilarious notion that the Chinese wilp just hand over their own successful programme.
A

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## ChineseTiger1986

araz said:


> So you are telling us that tech acquired after spending many billion dollars will just be transferred to Pakistan for it to procure the J31. You sir are either very nieve or are deceiving this board with rumour monngering. The reason is the seriously hilarious notion that the Chinese wilp just hand over their own successful programme.
> A



Without the WS-19, the PAF won't choose the J-31.

BTW, to cooperate with China is Pakistan's only viable option for the 5th gen, since the current US government is hostile toward you and any other Muslim nations, while Turkey doesn't have the technology nor financial capability to provide this.

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## Safriz

araz said:


> So you are telling us that tech acquired after spending many billion dollars will just be transferred to Pakistan for it to procure the J31. You sir are either very nieve or are deceiving this board with rumour monngering. The reason is the seriously hilarious notion that the Chinese wilp just hand over their own successful programme.
> A


On the flip side Chinese may have learnt the lesson.
J-10B wasn't bought by Pakistan because the pre_condition was that China will provide the engine with a Chinese engine,not TOT. 
Chinese simply failed to make an engine until recently. So j-10 never came to PAF.
For J-31 Chinese may be doing what Americans did to Swedish. Their jet engines are also based on a TOT from.USA.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

araz said:


> So you are telling us that tech acquired after spending many billion dollars will just be transferred to Pakistan for it to procure the J31. You sir are either very nieve or are deceiving this board with rumour monngering. The reason is the seriously hilarious notion that the Chinese wilp just hand over their own successful programme.
> A


Putting aside the specific news for a moment, the idea of getting a factory line for the engine isn't outlandish. Note: we shouldn't mix a local engine manufacturing line for China transferring an engine industry to Pakistan. India has been manufacturing AL-31FPs for a while. However, in our case the factory equipment, core components - e.g. crystal blades - will have to come from China and that China will always be linked to manufacturing Chinese engines in Pakistan.

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## SipahSalar

araz said:


> So you are telling us that tech acquired after spending many billion dollars will just be transferred to Pakistan for it to procure the J31.


The J-31 has been marketed as a stealth fighter for export market from day 1. Nothing naive about it. It's the J-20 that the Chinese are not willing to export to any country, even Pakistan.

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## HRK

SipahSalar said:


> The J-31 has been marketed as a stealth fighter for export market from day 1. Nothing naive about it. It's the J-20 that the Chinese are not willing to export to any country, even Pakistan.


araz was debating about WS-19 engine ..... this news is too good to be true at this moment .... 
logically speaking why China would transfer the technology of Jet engine manufacturing which is achieved after the decades long research & billions of $ investment ....?? 
In my opinion the maximum we can have the rights of assembling and manufacturing of non-critical parts of WS-19 with this deal

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## araz

SipahSalar said:


> The J-31 has been marketed as a stealth fighter for export market from day 1. Nothing naive about it. It's the J-20 that the Chinese are not willing to export to any country, even Pakistan.


The notion of tech transfer for an engine is the naive bit. I dont think anyone will give us anything more than simple assembly rights. The turbine blades and single crystal growth is the pinnacle of engine technology and the notion that it will just be handed over is naive. To give you an example, ae have a 3 decade history of engine imports from Ukraine and only now are we getting some level of tech transfer and possible local assembly. The dire stafe of Ukraine has something to do with it as well. But exclude those peculiar circumstances and see where your efforts to acquire engine tech get to. 
J20 will not remain the goose that lays golden eggs. There are people who are Ex PAF who in 5heir commentry have specifically mentioned J20 rather than J31. Now it could be argued that this maybe a ploy but effectively if we dont buy J31 and the likelihood is we wont( at least not without assurances from PLAAF orPLAN of a buy which will lower the development costs) it will die a slow and painful death.PAF has learnt its lesson well with the Chinese back tracking on the JFT(this is not nit picking and not a case of sour grapes but a case of a commitment which was initially given and then retracted) and wont commit its meagre resources on a project requiring money to finish it. The ultimate product will be too expensive.
A


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## ChineseTiger1986

HRK said:


> araz was debating about WS-19 engine ..... this news is too good to be true at this moment ....
> logically speaking why China would transfer the technology of Jet engine manufacturing which is achieved after the decades long research & billions of $ investment ....??
> In my opinion the maximum we can have the rights of assembling and manufacturing of non-critical parts of WS-19 with this deal



From a geopolitical scope, China has already put huge stake on Pakistan with the CPEC, so everything is intertwined, from economic to military perspective.

Since China has supported Pakistan's nuclear program, but has opposed the one from North Korea. You can clearly see that China has the routine to make exemption for Pakistan.

Maybe from an initial step, Pakistan maybe lacks the capability to product all critical components for the WS-19, but it is still a good starting point for your aerospace industry.

BTW, the time will tell if this news is true or not.

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## araz

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Putting aside the specific news for a moment, the idea of getting a factory line for the engine isn't outlandish. Note: we shouldn't mix a local engine manufacturing line for China transferring an engine industry to Pakistan. India has been manufacturing AL-31FPs for a while. However, in our case the factory equipment, core components - e.g. crystal blades - will have to come from China and that China will always be linked to manufacturing Chinese engines in Pakistan.


Fair enough but a few things need to be considered. Pak China interactions in defence have not traditionally been as stringent as say Pak US buys. Therefore there will be an attempt by Pak to progressively increase its ehare of local products. That requires both investment which we dont have, technological leaps which we may currently not be able to absorb and will take money away from the Chinese which any good businessman will not desire. That for 40 odd fighters and you are giving away a key technological achievement when your developmental cost would exceed the amount of the contract. This is a bad business formula and the Chinese are very astute business men. So unless someone is projecting a 500 planes demand, currently I would treat this notion with a certain mistrust if not sheer disbelief.
Regards
A



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> From a geopolitical scope, China has already put huge stake on Pakistan with the CPEC, so everything is intertwined, from economic to military perspective.
> 
> Since China has supported Pakistan's nuclear program, but has opposed the one from North Korea. You can clearly see that China has the routine to make exemption for Pakistan.
> 
> Maybe from an initial step, Pakistan maybe lacks the capability to product all critical components for the WS-19, but it is still a good starting point for your aerospace industry.
> 
> BTW, the time will tell if this news is true or not.


Look I dont want to derail this topic but the money has been invested with clear gains in mind. So this is not just brotherly relations. It was done because the Chinese are seeing profit in it. The advantages maybe there for both countries but no one can spin this yarn of Chinese benevolence for the love of Pakistan. Let us be frank and call a spade a spade. Mutual interests keep Pak China together and this is the real adhesive in the relationship.
A



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Without the WS-19, the PAF won't choose the J-31.
> 
> BTW, to cooperate with China is Pakistan's only viable option for the 5th gen, since the current US government is hostile toward you and any other Muslim nations, while Turkey doesn't have the technology nor financial capability to provide this.


China and Turkey are both strategic partners in the fifth generation project. No one is foolish enough to deny the help the Chinese have rendered but this has been in response to critical help provided by Pakistan to the Chinese as well. However this notion is a bridge too far so my note of dissention.
A


شاھین میزایل said:


> On the flip side Chinese may have learnt the lesson.
> J-10B wasn't bought by Pakistan because the pre_condition was that China will provide the engine with a Chinese engine,not TOT.
> Chinese simply failed to make an engine until recently. So j-10 never came to PAF.
> For J-31 Chinese may be doing what Americans did to Swedish. Their jet engines are also based on a TOT from.USA.


The OP I responded seemed to suggest a lock stock and barrel approach to transfer of engine technology. The J31itself is a problematic issue for PAF. There has been no evidence to date of PLAN/ PLAAF involvement or a commitment to buy the plane. This remains a prototype and development may require multiple billions of dollars which PAF will not fork out. There seems to be a technical game being played in that PAF wants a commitment from PLAAF/PLAN to buy the platform and inject money to cater the development cost. Until they do that J31 is not going anywhere and the project may yet close down for lack of international support. To propel the project forward the Chinese are offering select technologies. However the proviso mentioned in my posts remain. At best lets watch this space, but beyond this this notion is a bit suspect.
A

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## ChineseTiger1986

araz said:


> Look I dont want to derail this topic but the money has been invested with clear gains in mind. So this is not just brotherly relations. It was done because the Chinese are seeing profit in it. The advantages maybe there for both countries but no one can spin this yarn of Chinese benevolence for the love of Pakistan. Let us be frank and call a spade a spade. Mutual interests keep Pak China together and this is the real adhesive in the relationship.
> A



I know it is cool for Pakistan to acquire the J-20, but SAC has worked hard on the J-31 over a decade, and China wanna provide SAC an equal opportunity to promote their product.

BTW, China is very close to test the 6th gen turbofan engine on the J-20, so this means that the 6th gen aircraft is also around the corner within this decade, and the J-20 will indeed not be remained classified forever.







If I have read any news about China's offer of the J-20 to Pakistan, then I will indeed feel glad to share with you guys, but for now, the 5th gen aircraft deal only involves with the J-31.

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## Ahmet Pasha

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) something is strange because werent there chinese and turkish scientists in Pakistan a few month ago and there was news of them teaching Pakistani aerospace engineers or something to that effect. Turks also worked on some naval project with Pakistani scientists. I think these 3 news were also reported by you on Quwa as well?? What's up with that and how would that fit into context of this new runour from chinese friend?


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## Safriz

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> I know it is cool for Pakistan to acquire the J-20, but SAC has worked hard on the J-31 over a decade, and China wanna provide SAC an equal opportunity to promote their product.
> 
> BTW, China is very close to test the 6th gen turbofan engine on the J-20, so this means that the 6th gen aircraft is also around the corner within this decade, and the J-20 will indeed not be remained classified forever.
> 
> View attachment 449817
> 
> 
> If I have read any news about China's offer of the J-20 to Pakistan, then I will indeed feel glad to share with you guys, but for now, the 5th gen aircraft deal only involves with the J-31.


J-20 is galaxies beyond our requirements.


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## araz

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> I know it is cool for Pakistan to acquire the J-20, but SAC has worked hard on the J-31 over a decade, and China wanna provide SAC an equal opportunity to promote their product.
> 
> BTW, China is very close to test the 6th gen turbofan engine on the J-20, so this means that the 6th gen aircraft is also around the corner within this decade, and the J-20 will indeed not be remained classified forever.
> 
> View attachment 449817
> 
> 
> If I have read any news about China's offer of the J-20 to Pakistan, then I will indeed feel glad to share with you guys, but for now, the 5th gen aircraft deal only involves with the J-31.


There is unlikely to be a buy from Pak this side of 2020. Even if negotiations start now typically they will run for 2 years. Say in 2023-25 would J20 still remain off limits for PAF. Does China want to lose Pak as a customer, when a buy by Pak is a seal of approval to the quality of the product. No product which PAF has not bought from China has been an international success. So PAF will make an enquiry at a time when J20 becomes available and it wont be refused. If a J20 downs a couple of Rafales it wl have internationwl customers lining up to buy the product.
So an eazy defence against India is 5o bolster Pak defences within reason making some money in the process.
A


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## ChineseTiger1986

شاھین میزایل said:


> J-20 is galaxies beyond our requirements.



It is also much more expensive to maintain than the J-31.

I do believe that China does not intend to keep the J-20 classified forever.

Also, considering about the budget of the PAF, the J-31 was eventually pitched by the PAF, since the J-20 might not really suit the need of the PAF.



araz said:


> There is unlikely to be a buy from Pak this side of 2020. Even if negotiations start now typically they will run for 2 years. Say in 2023-25 would J20 still remain off limits for PAF. Does China want to lose Pak as a customer, when a buy by Pak is a seal of approval to the quality of the product. No product which PAF has not bought from China has been an international success. So PAF will make an enquiry at a time when J20 becomes available and it wont be refused. If a J20 downs a couple of Rafales it wl have internationwl customers lining up to buy the product.
> So an eazy defence against India is 5o bolster Pak defences within reason making some money in the process.
> A



When Pakistan got a bigger economy, and the PAF has the upgraded requirements with a more lavish budget, I will say that the option for the J-20 will definitely be available.

But for now, the PAF has opted for the J-31, and soon you may see the official announcement from your media.

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## SipahSalar

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> But for now, the PAF has opted for the J-31, and soon you may see the official announcement from your media.


Has J-31 even been deployed by the PLAAF yet? I think once it has been deployed and starts active service only then the PAF will be able to put the stealth fighter through tests in local environment.


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## ChineseTiger1986

SipahSalar said:


> Has J-31 even been deployed by the PLAAF yet? I think once it has been deployed and starts active service only then the PAF will be able to put the stealth fighter through tests in local environment.



The J-20 was already deployed by the PLAAF, while the J-31 was selected by the PLAN.

The successor of the J-15 will be based on the J-31.


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## CriticalThought

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> I know it is cool for Pakistan to acquire the J-20, but SAC has worked hard on the J-31 over a decade, and China wanna provide SAC an equal opportunity to promote their product.
> 
> BTW, China is very close to test the 6th gen turbofan engine on the J-20, so this means that the 6th gen aircraft is also around the corner within this decade, and the J-20 will indeed not be remained classified forever.
> 
> View attachment 449817
> 
> 
> If I have read any news about China's offer of the J-20 to Pakistan, then I will indeed feel glad to share with you guys, but for now, the 5th gen aircraft deal only involves with the J-31.



I envision half a squadron to full squadron of J-20 stationed in China along with Pakistani pilots. They train and work their until called in emergency when they fly first to Pakistan, then elsewhere for deep strike missions.


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## The Accountant

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Without the WS-19, the PAF won't choose the J-31.
> 
> BTW, to cooperate with China is Pakistan's only viable option for the 5th gen, since the current US government is hostile toward you and any other Muslim nations, while Turkey doesn't have the technology nor financial capability to provide this.


What he is talking about could be assembly and maintenance of engine ... We already have experience with mirrages and was trying the same for thunder ... It make sense and we have expertise similar to license assembly of engine ... We all know that Pakistan do not have any serious metalurgical capacity therefore the only thing in terms of engine manufacturing we could do is assembly and believe me this is not for the first time we are trying this... We tried similar arrangent for rd93 but we did not succeed ...


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## ChineseTiger1986

CriticalThought said:


> I envision half a squadron to full squadron of J-20 stationed in China along with Pakistani pilots. They train and work their until called in emergency when they fly first to Pakistan, then elsewhere for deep strike missions.



It is possible in the future, but right now the PAF has chosen the J-31, and I think it has mostly to do with the budget.



The Accountant said:


> What he is talking about could be assembly and maintenance of engine ... We already have experience with mirrages and was trying the same for thunder ... It make sense and we have expertise similar to license assembly of engine ... We all know that Pakistan do not have any serious metalurgical capacity therefore the only thing in terms of engine manufacturing we could do is assembly and believe me this is not for the first time we are trying this... We tried similar arrangent for rd93 but we did not succeed ...



To assemble the turbofan engine is also a critical step for your aerospace industry.

And the WS-19 is at least a generation ahead of the RD93, and you could learn a lot thing about the design structure of the 5th gen turbofan engine.


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## Beethoven

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> This news was provided by our military insider.
> 
> The WS-19 is better than the EJ200 with an afterburner thrust of 120KN and a TWR of 10.


This means J-31 for Pakistan will be powered by WS-19?????????

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## ChineseTiger1986

Beethoven said:


> This means J-31 for Pakistan will be powered by WS-19?????????



Yep, it will power the J-31 for both PLAN and PAF.

The WS-19 has an afterburner thrust of 120KN and a TWR exceeding 10.

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## Shabi1

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The J-31 will officially become Pakistan's 5th gen fighter, and China has decided to transfer the technology of the WS-19 to Pakistan.



Good to hear. Already was expecting a MBT-2000/Al-Khalid type transfer venture for J-31/Project Azm fighter

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## ChineseTiger1986

Shabi1 said:


> Good to hear. Already was expecting a MBT-2000/Al-Khalid type transfer venture for J-31/Project Azm fighter



Also don't forget the Type 054A, and the Type 054B in the future.

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## Army research

Bakshi tufail said:


> Kashmir isn't hot [emoji23]


"Hot and high "

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## araz

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> It is also much more expensive to maintain than the J-31.
> 
> I do believe that China does not intend to keep the J-20 classified forever.
> 
> Also, considering about the budget of the PAF, the J-31 was eventually pitched by the PAF, since the J-20 might not really suit the need of the PAF.
> 
> 
> 
> When Pakistan got a bigger economy, and the PAF has the upgraded requirements with a more lavish budget, I will say that the option for the J-20 will definitely be available.
> 
> But for now, the PAF has opted for the J-31, and soon you may see the official announcement from your media.


OK. Fair enough. Lets wait for some formal announcement. Inspite of my understanding of the commonaljty of engines between the J31 and JFT, the plane is no where near ready so it will be some time. I will be very happy to be proven wrong but so far it seems unlikely.
A

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## Readerdefence

Hi PDF memebers should Also keep one thing in mind of giving benefit of doubt for planaf to acquire j31 
As navy has still time for the third aircraft carrier to be online which can be having emals for arresting and flying out of j31 from the carrier 
So techibically j31 developers still have time for their product to get matured and planaf can be offered on the right time 
Any input from the learned memebers will be welcome 
Thank you


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## syed_yusuf

It is 8 -10 years for paf to get producing 5th gen fighters


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## fatman17

Indonesian President @jokowi inspected JF-17 fighter jet at Nur Khan Airbase in #Islamabad today. He evinced keen interest in the fighter jet. On the occasion, the visiting dignitary was briefed about the operational capabilities of JF-17. https://t.co/SZPlVXX2Gw

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## Army research

fatman17 said:


> Indonesian President @jokowi inspected JF-17 fighter jet at Nur Khan Airbase in #Islamabad today. He evinced keen interest in the fighter jet. On the occasion, the visiting dignitary was briefed about the operational capabilities of JF-17. https://t.co/SZPlVXX2Gw






, in this video if you add 30-40, network warfare capable block two or even better block 3 air craft guided by 1-2 AWACS , armed with BVR's, the balance would definitely tilt towards Indonesia albeit only in terms of defence. Iam speculating that chances of the sale of thunders are high , they could form the quantitive Part of the Indonesian air force , supporting offence ops of the su 35's , while also bringing strong anti shipping abilities especially if you add cm 400 to the mix.


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## MiG-35-BD

syed_yusuf said:


> It is 8 -10 years for paf to get producing 5th gen fighters


I do not know when such a plane would be designed, but the prospect sounds exciting. Given the practical approach of PAF, I hope it will be something real and actually in production unlike the "LCA" and whatever else India makes.

It seems that the design requirement is, possibly, IMHO, as follows (please note, I am speculating):

1. Stealth / LO features
2. Supercruise at 1.2 mach
3. Range equal to the F-16

The best way to design such a plane would perhaps be to keep it simple and work with available technologies. I am not an aeronautical engineer but I have informally studied it and I believe such a plane is possible within the parameters presented above.

Here is how one could go about designing such a plane - take design cues from what has already been researched rather than re-inventing the wheel (aka LCA / Arjunk / etc).

The closest aircraft to such a specification requirement are:
1. X-31 (delta wing, TVC)
2. J-10 (delta wing, potential TVC)
3. F-16 XL (Delta wing, TVC)

At the same time, one can perhaps look at the designs of stealth aircraft already produced:
1. J-20 (great design but less valuable for air superiority, a prime requirement for PAF and also too big and maintenance intensive. But could a smaller J-20 around a single engine be a broad possibility)
2. F-23. This aircraft lost the US fighter contest due to political reasons. You can see the only test pilot to have flown both the YF-23 and YF-22 basically hinting that the YF-23 lost because of politics and that it was a superior design. (can't post links yet but you can find on you tube "YF-23 Dem/Val presentation metz sandberg"
3. F-22. One interesting innovation in the F-22 is the use of TVC not to do cobra maneuvres but to improve high altitude performance. TVC can actually improve range, speed and stealth of an aircraft. See this paper for details how: (I can't post links yet due to not having enough posts but you can google and find the icas website paper ID ICA0534 a pdf file)
Taking these factors into consideration, perhaps the best design for a limited budget light-medium weight design is as follows:

1. A simple delta wing design. This provides the lowest drag and highest speed and range
2. A single engine like the WS-10 or twin RD-93s. Should give enough thrust without becoming an expensive and hard to maintain aircraft
3. TVC. TVC along with FBW (fly by wire) will allow a simple delta to be highly maneuverable, it will also allow the canted tails (below) to be very small, drastically reducing drag and eliminating canards.
4. Twin canted tails that are used for both horizontal and vertical stabilization, in a similar configuration to the YF-23 (but much smaller given modern TVC and FBW advances)
5. If a single AL-31 / WS-10 is used, one could ride off the upgrades and parts bin of the J-10.

These features should be able to achieve an aircraft capable of supercruise of mach 1.2, excellent maneuverability both at high and medium altitudes and an ideal strike and BVR platform able to meet any challenge India can bring.

Technically such a plane would be gen 5.5 given the reduced tail surfaces config.


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## sparten

شاھین میزایل said:


> J-20 is galaxies beyond our requirements.


Not really. If the US & A starts giving lalaji's advanced equipment, like F35's, then we absolutley need something able to beat it and J20 will be a candidate, the J31 _won't._

Not sure that PAF would accept the J31 as is. A more likely scenario is to create a large air superiority fighter based on the J31.

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## Windjammer

*Air Cdr (R) Kaiser Tufail and other fit to fly veterans who in the words of Air Cdr......*

*''The Air Staff gave a unique opportunity to some (fit) senior veterans to assess the operational capabilities of the PAF from a 'then and now' perspective. I am pleased to report that the PAF of today is mighty potent and absolutely ready, as I along with a few old buddies made an assessment after we took rides in the incomparable electric jet. Not only is the latest version completely sensor fused and out of this world, the young boys who fly them are tech-savvy professionals as good as can be -- much better than we were. Here is today's picture alongside one that is three decades old. Loads of more pictures to follow''.*

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## denel

Army research said:


> , in this video if you add 30-40, network warfare capable block two or even better block 3 air craft guided by 1-2 AWACS , armed with BVR's, the balance would definitely tilt towards Indonesia albeit only in terms of defence. Iam speculating that chances of the sale of thunders are high , they could form the quantitive Part of the Indonesian air force , supporting offence ops of the su 35's , while also bringing strong anti shipping abilities especially if you add cm 400 to the mix.


I think this is unnecessary; there is no reason for be projecting an atmosphere of conflict when there is none.


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## Raider 21

Windjammer said:


> *Air Cdr (R) Kaiser Tufail and other fit to fly veterans who in the words of Air Cdr......*
> 
> *''The Air Staff gave a unique opportunity to some (fit) senior veterans to assess the operational capabilities of the PAF from a 'then and now' perspective. I am pleased to report that the PAF of today is mighty potent and absolutely ready, as I along with a few old buddies made an assessment after we took rides in the incomparable electric jet. Not only is the latest version completely sensor fused and out of this world, the young boys who fly them are tech-savvy professionals as good as can be -- much better than we were. Here is today's picture alongside one that is three decades old. Loads of more pictures to follow''.*
> 
> View attachment 450443


One of them is fit, the rest not on that level....nevertheless still impressive to take rides. Chuck Yeager and Buzz Aldrin managed fighter jet rides in their 80s.


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## Windjammer

Knuckles said:


> One of them is fit, the rest not on that level....nevertheless still impress to take rides. Chuck Yeager and Buzz Aldrin managed fighter jet rides in their 80s.


Chuck and Buzz were flying most of their lives unlike our current PM or CJCSC.
In any case, Sir Tufail would know better than any of us..... besides the veterans were there for more than just to prove their physical fitness.


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## BHarwana

Pakistan is waiting on the deliveries of J10-b powered with ws-10 engines.

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## ZedZeeshan

BHarwana said:


> Pakistan is waiting on the deliveries of J10-b powered with ws-10 engines.


says who..???


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## BHarwana

ZedZeeshan said:


> says who..???


Why you don't believe me? Pakistan has signed the agreement for J10-b with ws-10 engines and we will get the devilries soon. Pakistan will receive them.


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## Army research

BHarwana said:


> Why you don't believe me? Pakistan has signed the agreement for J10-b with ws-10 engines and we will get the devilries soon. Pakistan will receive them.


Source?


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## BHarwana

Army research said:


> Source?


What type of source do you want? News from some news channel or official military statement?


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## Army research

BHarwana said:


> What type of source do you want? News from some news channel or official military statement?


How did you get the info ?


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## BHarwana

Army research said:


> How did you get the info ?


I will give you a source that no think tank or expert can claim is false but first you tell me will Pakistan not but J-10b. We need them and we have contract signed for them and are working on the joint development of the version we require and with WS-10 engine.


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## Army research

BHarwana said:


> I will give you a source that no think tank or expert can claim is false but first you tell me will Pakistan not but J-10b. We need them and we have contract signed for them and are working on the joint development of the version we require and with WS-10 engine.


Sir I didn't mean to offend , and I know how strategically beneficial the plane will be , it's just that on this forum numerous eft , su 35 and scars have already landed in Pakistan. I just want to be sure before I get my hopes high. Would the J10 be an Aesa variant ? Maybe it could have commonality with jft block three ?

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## BHarwana

Army research said:


> Sir I didn't mean to offend , and I know how strategically beneficial the plane will be , it's just that on this forum numerous eft , su 35 and scars have already landed in Pakistan. I just want to be sure before I get my hopes high. Would the J10 be an Aesa variant ? Maybe it could have commonality with jft block three ?



No my friend JF-17 is a light fighter jet which is a multirole fighter but mainly used by Pakistan for ground attack. Where as J-10 b is an air superiority monster with good interception capability


here is the News and source below: No one can challenge this. It is official website now try to prove me wrong any one. 

- FC-20 / J-10B Fighter Jet. PAF is also in process of receiving its first FC-20 / J-10B fighter jet which is powered by indigenous WS-10 engine.

https://www.ispr.gov.pk/front/main.asp?id=85&o=t-article

@Army research the contract is signed and research was being made on J-10b to integrate it with WS-10 engine after all the trails have been done and project is proved successful Pakistan is going to get the jets.


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## Army research

BHarwana said:


> No my friend JF-17 is a light fighter jet which is a multirole fighter but mainly used by Pakistan for ground attack. Where as J-10 b is an air superiority monster with good interception capability
> 
> 
> here is the News and source below: No one can challenge this. It is official website now try to prove me wrong any one.
> 
> - FC-20 / J-10B Fighter Jet. PAF is also in process of receiving its first FC-20 / J-10B fighter jet which is powered by indigenous WS-10 engine.
> 
> https://www.ispr.gov.pk/front/main.asp?id=85&o=t-article


Sir I know , I was just suggesting that the FC 20 and jft block three could have the same Aesa when in paf service , potentially allowing local manufacturing of the radar.
Also kudos for breaking the news of a new fighter with actual solid evidence. You've made my day

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## BHarwana

Army research said:


> Sir I know , I was just suggesting that the FC 20 and jft block three could have the same Aesa when in paf service , potentially allowing local manufacturing of the radar.
> Also kudos for breaking the news of a new fighter with actual solid evidence. You've made my day



JF-17 has a different purpose and JF-17 is also getting Aesa soon. they are testing it.

@Army research here is Pakistan's J-10b being tested

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## Tps43

BHarwana said:


> No my friend JF-17 is a light fighter jet which is a multirole fighter but mainly used by Pakistan for ground attack. Where as J-10 b is an air superiority monster with good interception capability
> 
> 
> here is the News and source below: No one can challenge this. It is official website now try to prove me wrong any one.
> 
> - FC-20 / J-10B Fighter Jet. PAF is also in process of receiving its first FC-20 / J-10B fighter jet which is powered by indigenous WS-10 engine.
> 
> https://www.ispr.gov.pk/front/main.asp?id=85&o=t-article
> 
> @Army research the contract is signed and research was being made on J-10b to integrate it with WS-10 engine after all the trails have been done and project is proved successful Pakistan is going to get the jets.


So can we see J 10's on 23 march parade?


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## BHarwana

tps77 said:


> So can we see J 10's on 23 march parade?


I don't think so because Pakistan is a customer of J-10b with WS-10 and it is being tested and production will take time.


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## Tps43

BHarwana said:


> I don't think so because Pakistan is a customer of J-10b with WS-10 and it is being tested and production will take time.


If u remember Khawaja Asif once mentioned in NA that we have 2 sqn's standby in china?


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## BHarwana

tps77 said:


> If u remember Khawaja Asif once mentioned in NA that we have 2 sqn's standby in china?


My friend Pakistan and China are working with each other for a long time on different projects and much of them are not know to public. But if there will be need there is much more than J-10b that will come from China.


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## Tps43

BHarwana said:


> My friend Pakistan and China are working with each other for a long time on different projects and much of them are not know to public. But if there will be need there is much more than J-10b that will come from China.


 I am just trying to match the dots here 2 sqn's and J 10b btw this was hot topic 4 years back and what I had heard at that time was china aint giving flexible financial terms on J 10's.


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## BHarwana

tps77 said:


> I am just trying to match the dots here 2 sqn's and J 10b btw this was hot topic 4 years back and what I had heard at that time was china aint giving flexible financial terms on J 10's.



China has always given Pakistan Flexible financial terms to Pakistan because Pakistan has always helped China in many things to acquire. The most famous was J-7 upgrade to ground role which would not have been possible with out the help of PAF Pilots and Much more. PAC teams make constant visits to AVIC and many Chinese defence companies and we work together on many issue ever since the Mou have been signed between the countries. J-10b with WS-10 is better than any jet in the world if the integration goes all good this will be a lethal weapon.

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## SabzShaheen

BHarwana said:


> China has always given Pakistan Flexible financial terms to Pakistan because Pakistan has always helped China in many things to acquire. The most famous was J-7 upgrade to ground role which would not have been possible with out the help of PAF Pilots and Much more. PAC teams make constant visits to AVIC and many Chinese defence companies and we work together on many issue ever since the Mou have been signed between the countries. J-10b with WS-10 is better than any jet in the world if the integration goes all good this will be a lethal weapon.


We're not getting J-10s dude, we cancelled any plans for those planes to focus on JF-17. It's sad I know but it's true


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## BHarwana

SabzShaheen said:


> We're not getting J-10s dude, we cancelled any plans for those planes to focus on JF-17. It's sad I know but it's true



May be we have canceled but the Jet Pakistan ordered is now being tested so I never got any news of cancellation of the order from a credible source. You tell me what are we going to buy we don't have any option. F-16 are off the table due to USA. JF-17 has a different role. Russian Jet are twin engine. Plus there is an unanswered question. It takes a lot of money to integrate a new engine into a jet and why would China do that China has many other platforms to work on but still J-10b is being developed with WS-10 why can you answer that?


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## SabzShaheen

BHarwana said:


> May be we have canceled but the Jet Pakistan ordered is now being tested so I never got any news of cancellation of the order from a credible source. You tell me what are we going to buy we don't have any option. F-16 are off the table due to USA. JF-17 has a different role. Russian Jet are twin engine. Plus there is an unanswered question. It takes a lot of money to integrate a new engine into a jet and why would China do that China has many other platforms to work on but still J-10b is being developed with WS-10 why can you answer that?


We don't have to focus on an imported fighter. The JF-17 is meant to be the backbone of the PAF and we still have options for other fighters like Project Azm (Insha'Allah it will work out) and J-31 from China. The J-10 is used by China so it makes sense why they are still upgrading it.

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## BHarwana

SabzShaheen said:


> We don't have to focus on an imported fighter. The JF-17 is meant to be the backbone of the PAF and we still have options for other fighters like Project Azm (Insha'Allah it will work out) and J-31 from China. The J-10 is used by China so it makes sense why they are still upgrading it.



Yes we are focusing on JF-17 and we are developing Azm and J-31 is there as well but which one is the interceptor among them all? The order was placed there is no source of cancellation news. I am not saying that we will not make all those jets or not get them but the gap of interceptor can only be filled with this jet. If PAF cancels J-10b order that means PAF will place an order for J-20 because PAF need interceptor. No air force is complete with out an interceptor.


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## SabzShaheen

BHarwana said:


> Yes we are focusing on JF-17 and we are developing Azm and J-31 is there as well but which one is the interceptor among them all? The order was placed there is no source of cancellation news. I am not saying that we will not make all those jets or not get them but the gap of interceptor can only be filled with this jet. If PAF cancels J-10b order that means PAF will place an order for J-20 because PAF need interceptor. No air force is complete with out an interceptor.


I'm no aerial warfare expert but I think modern aircraft design does not focus on interceptors specifically anymore and the J10 is a multi-role (so it can perform the role of an interceptor fighter) just like the JF-17. Also I doubt we'll get the j-20 as it's a sensitive project for china. Instead, we will probably collaborate with them to develop our own fighter under Project Azm (https://quwa.org/2017/12/07/pakistan-collaborating-with-china-on-next-gen-fighter/)

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## BHarwana

SabzShaheen said:


> I'm no aerial warfare expert but I think modern aircraft design does not focus on interceptors specifically anymore and the J10 is a multi-role (so it can perform the role of an interceptor fighter) just like the JF-17. Also I doubt we'll get the j-20 as it's a sensitive project for china. Instead, we will probably collaborate with them to develop our own fighter under Project Azm (https://quwa.org/2017/12/07/pakistan-collaborating-with-china-on-next-gen-fighter/)



Why is Pakistan not buying J-20 or J-31 and making Azm? Because Pakistan is going to get J-10b for interception. JF-17 is work horse that will fight all the battles but which jet will Intercept incoming Indian jets first and which jet will take out Indian early warning systems in range. It is J-10b and J-10 b will accompany Jf-17 and other jets. the current development of J-10 b is the very proof that J-10b is on cards. China has flanker and many other jets that are far superior than J-10b but they still develop it means that the Jet is on Pakistani cards. only time will tell but this possibility cannot be ruled out until there is some concrete evidence. Because there is no other Jet that can do mach 2.2


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## Tank131

araz said:


> So you are telling us that tech acquired after spending many billion dollars will just be transferred to Pakistan for it to procure the J31. You sir are either very nieve or are deceiving this board with rumour monngering. The reason is the seriously hilarious notion that the Chinese wilp just hand over their own successful programme.
> A



I have lomg suspected that project AZM is in fact the J-31. PAF will likely acquire rights to produce amd develop the fighter for its own use. This includes the tech used in it such as avionics and engine. Now with respect to the engine, i think it will be more the rights of local assembly rather than production. As @araz mentioned, the tech of single crystal turbine blades has only been mastered by a few...as such even if Pakistan wanted to buy the tech amd china was willing to sell it, Pakistan may not be able to absorb the tech at this stage as it does not have the facilities to create the metal alloys necessary for the single crystal forging. The same is not true for the rest of the aircraft which would give rise to the future of the aerospace industry (much like mig-19 and mig-21 gave rise to china's industry).

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## Ahmet Pasha

Completely ignoring TFX would the worst, monumental mistake ever made by PAF


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## BHarwana

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Completely ignoring TFX would the worst, monumental mistake ever made by PAF


TFX can be sanctioned by west because of parts being supplied by BAE systems.


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## Ahmet Pasha

SUBSYSTEMS


BHarwana said:


> TFX can be sanctioned by west because of parts being supplied by BAE systems.


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## SQ8

No J-10 is coming- project ditched in 2011.

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## alimobin memon

Oscar said:


> No J-10 is coming- project ditched in 2011.


J10 has always been an "if" project, if rafale than J10. Since J31 has still 6 to 8 years pakistan might buy dozen J10B as stop gap.


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## SQ8

alimobin memon said:


> J10 has always been an "if" project, if rafale than J10. Since J31 has still 6 to 8 years pakistan might buy dozen J10B as stop gap.


Depends entirely on billions as funds.


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## fatman17




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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Oscar said:


> No J-10 is coming- project ditched in 2011.


Seeing that the PAF leadership even walked away from the F-16s (after the US refused to back it with FMF) despite having the infrastructure for it, it seems that the funds have been allotted for other things, with emphasis on the JF-17 and the FGF. Besides scarcity of funds, I wonder how much of it also has to do with just being fed up with being a price-taker on the import market (not to mention grovelling repeatedly for loans and credit), and just closing the door on the issue once for all. While the cost issue won't go away with FGF, at least you have control over the spare parts, supply channel (e.g. deciding when to downsize or ramp-up production), etc.

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## SQ8

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Seeing that the PAF leadership even walked away from the F-16s (after the US refused to back it with FMF) despite having the infrastructure for it, it seems that the funds have been allotted for other things, with emphasis on the JF-17 and the FGF. Besides scarcity of funds, I wonder how much of it also has to do with just being fed up with being a price-taker on the import market (not to mention grovelling repeatedly for loans and credit), and just closing the door on the issue once for all. While the cost issue won't go away with FGF, at least you have control over the spare parts, supply channel (e.g. deciding when to downsize or ramp-up production), etc.


There are still suppliers open, but unlike the gcc arabs who will dole out money wherever their respective western consultants/gods suggest- we don’t have the open funds nor do we purchase on a whim or a simple tap on our insecurities. 

The goal was even in the worst situation have 75 F-16s and 150 JF-17s +the PGs doing intercepts and soldiering on the most serviciable and competent mirage airframes.

What the PAF is doing now is what the PA is doing and the PN is doing, focusing on itself as a warfighting organism as a whole rather than piling on incompatible and dubiously ready systems in the East,or toys like the Arabs, or propogana like our western neighbor. 

Interestingly, it is the Chinese who have now taken our lesson to heart and are doing just that... building a unified warfighting organization rather than multiple non specific confused systems.

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## fatman17

PAF Has Operated AVIC’s Wing Loong I Since 2015 https://t.co/aP6Kl3EAIt https://t.co/yZ23k16NWV

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## fatman17

PAF Has Operated AVIC’s Wing Loong I Since 2015
Posted on January 27, 2018


A review of commercial satellite imagery acquired between 2015 and 2017 by DigitalGlobe confirms that the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is operating the Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) Wing Loong I medium-altitude, long endurance unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV). Imagery shows the platform parked near an aircraft shelter at the PAF M. M. Alam airbase in Mianwali, Punjab. A report of the UAV’s possible deployment was published online earlier this month by the Center for the Study of the Drone at Bard College.

Previously, video and handhelds released by the Pakistani press in 2016 of a crashed drone near the airbase showed components that strongly resembled the Wing Loong I. The report was the first open source tip-off that Pakistan was operating the strike-capable UAV. Contrary to the Bard College report, a further review of commercial imagery confirms that Pakistan has operated the aircraft from the airbase since at least 2015. In fact, commercial imagery captured on 01 November 2015 shows two of the UAV at the hangar. Multiple Wing Loong have not been observed at the location since.

The Wing Loong I, Pakistan’s most advanced strike-capable UAV, has a length of 9 m, a wingspan of 14 m and a range of 5,000 km. Pakistan joins a handful of air arms in the Middle East and Central Asia who operate the platform. Additional strike-capable UAVs operated by the PAF include a derivative of the CASC CH-3, known domestically as the Burraq. Produced by Pakistan’s National Engineering and Scientific Commission (NESCOM), the Burraq was used by the PAF in its first documented drone strike in 2015. In addition to the PAF, the country’s Navy also inducted their first local Chinese variants in 2013.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Oscar said:


> There are still suppliers open, but unlike the gcc arabs who will dole out money wherever their respective western consultants/gods suggest- we don’t have the open funds nor do we purchase on a whim or a simple tap on our insecurities.
> 
> The goal was even in the worst situation have 75 F-16s and 150 JF-17s +the PGs doing intercepts and soldiering on the most serviciable and competent mirage airframes.
> 
> What the PAF is doing now is what the PA is doing and the PN is doing, focusing on itself as a warfighting organism as a whole rather than piling on incompatible and dubiously ready systems in the East,or toys like the Arabs, or propogana like our western neighbor.
> 
> Interestingly, it is the Chinese who have now taken our lesson to heart and are doing just that... building a unified warfighting organization rather than multiple non specific confused systems.


I see that. It's apparent that the FGF is not being sought for its own sake, but to achieve very specific objectives: (1) deep-strike, (2) OCA and (3) maritime operations. The sensor-fusion and low-RCS profile is beneficial on all counts. Sure, there's that boast factor of having an FGF, but that's not the objective in the program.


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## sparten

J10 was rejected since it did not offer sufficiently advanced capabioity versus costs.
The FGF project has been up since at least the late 2000's, when the Indian MMRCA programme began. 
Especially from Mid 2011, when the F16IN was dropped, Lockheed Martin spent a lot of time trying to convince the PAF to adopt the F35, I believe the even dangled the possibility of a manufacturering line at PAC. For a short while the PAF seemed interested, you might remember a few years ago the PAF chief spoke of buying the F35. That seems ended now.

While the smart money has been on J-31=Pakistani FGF, its not really clear if it _is. _The PAF has had a reqirement for a big twin engined interceptor since the 1980's when the F6 became increasingly obsolesent. Before Pressler, the PAF was about the issue a RFP/RFI for one, with F14, F15 being the front runners. We very nearly bought the Su-27 in the mid 1990's, until then CAS, Farooq Khan decided that the TOT offered by the French and Italians for ROSE Mirage and F7PG programmes was a better bet. J20 would seem a better bet than the J31 in this spehre.

So its possible that FGF is a brand new Pakistani developed plane (with Chinese assiatcne of course).


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## BHarwana

J-10b was never rejected there is no proof and currently there is no jet that can match J10-b in the single engine class.
Plus PAF requires 2 squadrons of J-10b because of it's interception role and max speed of 2.2 mach and the speed is 2.5 with WS-10 and J-10b being a delta wing configuration is best platform from Skardu Air base and Siachen region. Pakistan always ordered J-10b with WS-10 and Plan is now being tested.


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## Army research

The fgf would be a Pakistani designed plane , if things go according to plan , a dual engine fighter. Further details highly secret


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## Khadim e Darul Ehsaan

BHarwana said:


> Why is Pakistan not buying J-20 or J-31 and making Azm? Because Pakistan is going to get J-10b for interception. JF-17 is work horse that will fight all the battles but which jet will Intercept incoming Indian jets first and which jet will take out Indian early warning systems in range. It is J-10b and J-10 b will accompany Jf-17 and other jets. the current development of J-10 b is the very proof that J-10b is on cards. China has flanker and many other jets that are far superior than J-10b but they still develop it means that the Jet is on Pakistani cards. only time will tell but this possibility cannot be ruled out until there is some concrete evidence. Because there is no other Jet that can do mach 2.2


I have read yur discussion sir bharwana ,i am very sorry to say that i feel you have no solid concrete evidence (may be i m wrong). U r an elite member of this hounerable and knowledgable forum but personally i think that u r assuming that Pakistan will buy it bcz pakistan needs it ,else then that i think there is no solid evidence .the pic u shared and said is of paf j10b being tested is also not a proof bcz who knows either it is for china or for pakistan


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## BHarwana

Khadim e Darul Ehsaan said:


> I have read yur discussion sir bharwana ,i am very sorry to say that i feel you have no solid concrete evidence (may be i m wrong). U r an elite member of this hounerable and knowledgable forum but personally i think that u r assuming that Pakistan will buy it bcz pakistan needs it ,else then that i think there is no solid evidence .the pic u shared and said is of paf j10b being tested is also not a proof bcz who knows either it is for china or for pakistan



My friend I totally agree with you and you could be right and I could be wrong but one of my point stands valid. I have provided the official statement of order being placed and no one here has provided official statement that order has been canceled. All every one did was made assumptions of order being canceled because so long time frame with out keeping in mind the development of WS-10. The News I quoted is from 2013 and this is 2018 it takes time to develop a Jet engine. I am the one that stands here with firm evidence of order being placed but no one here is giving firm evidence that order has been canceled, I am not making any claims but just stating common sense and I am flexible to change my stance if some evidence is given of order being canceled. I have provided evidence and now I am just asking the opposition to do the same and give evidence this is not a fight but just an effort to achieve the true nature of the things. The continuous development of J-10b is the biggest prove that the jet is on cards and there is no modern interceptor that can achieve this role. The latest J-10b is better that Rafael and many other platforms out there. Fifth gen cannot fill the role of interceptor even Russia revived the MIG 31 fighter jet and modernized it. There is no Air force with out interceptors.


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## SabzShaheen

BHarwana said:


> My friend I totally agree with you and you could be right and I could be wrong but one of my point stands valid. I have provided the official statement of order being placed and no one here has provided official statement that order has been canceled. All every one did was made assumptions of order being canceled because so long time frame with out keeping in mind the development of WS-10. The News I quoted is from 2013 and this is 2018 it takes time to develop a Jet engine. I am the one that stands here with firm evidence of order being placed but no one here is giving firm evidence that order has been canceled, I am not making any claims but just stating common sense and I am flexible to change my stance if some evidence is given of order being canceled. I have provided evidence and now I am just asking the opposition to do the same and give evidence this is not a fight but just an effort to achieve the true nature of the things. The continuous development of J-10b is the biggest prove that the jet is on cards and there is no modern interceptor that can achieve this role. The latest J-10b is better that Rafael and many other platforms out there. Fifth gen cannot fill the role of interceptor even Russia revived the MIG 31 fighter jet and modernized it. There is no Air force with out interceptors.


Fair enough that there doesn't seem to be evidence of a cancellation of any J-10 order but I doubt the PAF will induct any because we don't need them. Wikipedia says that the order was cancelled in 2016 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chengdu_J-10#Pakistan) but the linked source is not available. Bear in mind that the JF-17 Block 3 is still in development and it is likely that a 4th block will be made which could be better suited to an interceptor role if the PAF deems it necessary. Also, many FGFs like the Sukhoi FGFA and J-31 (which Pakistan may acquire) are being designed as multi-role aircraft so they will be able to perform the interceptor role.


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## Talon

BHarwana said:


> *J-10b was never rejected there is no proof and currently there is no jet that can match J10-b in the single engine class.*
> Plus PAF requires 2 squadrons of J-10b because of it's interception role and max speed of 2.2 mach and the speed is 2.5 with WS-10 and J-10b being a delta wing configuration is best platform from Skardu Air base and Siachen region. Pakistan always ordered J-10b with WS-10 and Plan is now being tested.


Paf F16s have already *beaten* J10 in a friendly engagement(cant and wont tell more details abt this).
Yes J10 was once considered for induction but those were old days no chances now.
J10 and Su35 are never coming to Pakistan.


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## BHarwana

SabzShaheen said:


> Fair enough that there doesn't seem to be evidence of a cancellation of any J-10 order but I doubt the PAF will induct any because we don't need them. Wikipedia says that the order was cancelled in 2016 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chengdu_J-10#Pakistan) but the linked source is not available. Bear in mind that the JF-17 Block 3 is still in development and it is likely that a 4th block will be made which could be better suited to an interceptor role if the PAF deems it necessary. Also, many FGFs like the Sukhoi FGFA and J-31 (which Pakistan may acquire) are being designed as multi-role aircraft so they will be able to perform the interceptor role.



JF-17 block 3 or J-31 are not interceptors. Here are possible interceptors. J-7P, MIG-31, Mirage-3, J-20, J-10b. Interceptors are the first jets to approach an incoming air attack. The Job of the interceptors is to fly fast fire missiles and run like hell thus making an incoming attack to lose it's full capacity of attack and fuel thus providing your own fighter an edge in a fight. they also take out Early warning systems and Air refueling tankers. PAF has always used interceptors and you are trying to tell me that they will ditch them why? Interceptor is not an air craft but an Air warfare strategy.

If JF-17 block 3 can do above Mach 2.2 that means Pakistan is not buying J-10b, If Pakistan places an order for J-20 that means Pakistan is not buying J-10b or if Pakistan buys Mig 31DZ that means Pakistan is not buying J-10b. Look at PAF inventory it is full of interceptors. PAF loves interceptors and they plan to keep them. Interceptors are the main threat to India and USA they are even better than 5th Gen. Interceptor can attack and out run 5th gen any time. Either Pakistan will not retire J-7P/PG or Mirages or it will buy J-10b or JF-17 will get WS-10 engine in block 3 and will achieve Mach 2.0 there is no way around this.


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## Talon

BHarwana said:


> The News I quoted is from 2013 and this is 2018 it takes time to develop a Jet engine.


I was told in 2014 by a Paf pilot that the order has been canceled so that 2013 source of yours stands invalid..atleast in my books.


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## BHarwana

Hodor said:


> I was told in 2014 by a Paf pilot that the order has been canceled so that 2013 source of yours stands invalid..atleast in my books.


Previously all those who said Pakistan was buying J-10b said I was told and they were made fool of now all those who are saying that I was told are doing the same. My friend stop I was told and bring evidence. I am not saying you were told wrong but just asking the same question please give concrete evidence. This discussion is going no where you cannot say any thing because of the secrecy in the induction process and development process every thing is so secrete and no PAF pilot can tell you any thing until he is a test pilot so my point still stands I have many PAF pilots as friends but it is pointless to ask them any thing because only PAF test team knows what is actually going on and which Platforms Pakistan is interested in. Still I stand with the order being positive because of the PAF desire to use interceptors.



Hodor said:


> Paf F16s have already *beaten* J10 in a friendly engagement(cant and wont tell more details abt this).
> Yes J10 was once considered for induction but those were old days no chances now.
> J10 and Su35 are never coming to Pakistan.


Yes F-16 can beat J-10 in exercises but no F-16 can beat J-10b that is a fact and in real war if J-10b wants to take a kill over F-16 or F-15 it can because it is an interceptor and it will fire and escape faster than it could be caught. This is the strategy that was developed in Iran Iraq war. MIG 31 was never caught by Iranis even with F-14 twin engine tomcats just ask them and they will tell you the reality. In real war and beyond visual range interceptor are deadly than any jet in the world. That is why J-7P/PG still serves around the world. How the hell would F-16 even get near J-10b in beyond visual range engagement it is impossible to catch the jet. It is too fast and can attack from even further. F-7P/PG is still the most dominant fighter out there.


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## Talon

BHarwana said:


> Previously all those who said Pakistan was buying J-10b said I was told and they were made fool of now all those who are saying that I was told are doing the same. My friend stop I was told and bring evidence. I am not saying you were told wrong but just asking the same question please give concrete evidence. This discussion is going no where you cannot say any thing because of the secrecy in the induction process and development process every thing is so secrete and no PAF pilot can tell you any thing until he is a test pilot so my point still stands I have many PAF pilots as friends but it is pointless to ask them any thing because only PAF test team knows what is actually going on and which Platforms Pakistan is interested in. Still I stand with the order being positive because of the PAF desire to use interceptors.


You said everyone here is making assumptions that the order has been cancelled so i said i have been *told* and now u have issues abt getting *told* as well...its not necessary for every project to be announced at what posit it is as at or is it even active.




BHarwana said:


> Yes F-16 can beat J-10 in exercises but no F-16 can beat J-10b that is a fact and in real war if J-10b wants to take a kill over F-16 or F-15 it can because it is an interceptor and it will fire and escape faster than it could be caught. This is the strategy that was developed in Iran Iraq war. MIG 31 was never caught by Iranis even with F-14 twin engine tomcats just ask them and they will tell you the reality. In real war and beyond visual range interceptor are deadly than any jet in the world. That is why J-7P/PG still serves around the world. How the hell would F-16 even get near J-10b in beyond visual range engagement it is impossible to catch the jet. It is too fast and can attack from even further. F-7P/PG is still the most dominant fighter out there.


Are u sick...do u even know whats the strategy of Paf in warfare?Do u think Paf doesnt know how to tackle bvr engagements?
Paf is a force that practices 1 vs 5 scenarios bcuz it knows it will always be short at numbers.Similarly it practices to bring the Red team within Wvr bcuz it knows its will always be at lower tech than its enemy.
How do u think Paf has guts to send an F7pg or even a Mirage whoz hud barely works to *Intercept *the enemy's Su30...bcuz it flies daily and practices these kinds of things all day long.
I tell u Paf has taken down J10s and u say it was only an exercise...if u have *so many* paf pilots as friends then ask them about this engagement and they will tell u what the matter really was...until then stop claiming that *falan* jahaz can never take down *falan* jahaz and stop comparing Paf with Iranis.If only tech mattered then saudi IFVs wouldnt be getting their a** kicked in yemen or their F15s getting shot down.

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## BHarwana

Hodor said:


> Are u sick...do u even know whats the strategy of Paf in warfare?Do u think Paf doesnt know how to tackle bvr engagements?
> Paf is a force that practices 1 vs 5 scenarios bcuz it knows it will always be short at numbers.Similarly it practices to bring the Red team with Wvr bcuz it knows its will always be at lower tech than its enemy.
> How do u think Paf has guts to send an F7pg or even a Mirage whoz hud barely works to *Intercept *the enemy's Su30...bcuz it flies daily and practices these kinds of things all day long.
> I tell u Paf has taken down J10s and u say it was an exercise...if u have *so many* paf pilots as friends then ask them about this engagement and they will tell u what the matter really was...until then stop claiming that *falan* jahaz can never take down *falan* jahaz and stop comparing Paf with Iranis.If only tech mattered then saudi IFVs wouldnt be getting their a** kicked in yemen or their F15s getting shot down.


Give an authentic link of order cancellation please. This is a valid request.


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## Talon

BHarwana said:


> Give an authentic link of order cancellation please. This is a valid request.


Yeah now u hv got nothing to say so u are coming to the only point u hv got..which i hv already answered in first part of my previous post.
Its useless to talk to you..Allah Hafiz and Peace!


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## BHarwana

Hodor said:


> Yeah now u hv got nothing to say so u are coming to the only point u hv got..which i hv already answered in first part of my previous post.
> Its useless to talk to you..Allah Hafiz and Peace!


There is no order cancellation info that is why you cannot provide me any link I know that but I will give you 100% credit that I might be wrong as well because of secrecy around the procurement. But J-10b is a good jet with all listed specs it is better than F-16.


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## BHarwana

CriticalThought said:


> Absolute third category BS. Stop this nonsense, it has gone on for too long already.


Agreed. lol

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## CriticalThought

BHarwana said:


> Agreed. lol



OK, I knew you were pulling our legs. Now I'll delete the post

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## sparten

JF17, with AEW, BVR and LOAL is a sufficient interceptor. Even versus MKI or Rafael. What FGF-Azm would be is an Air superiority fighter. Useful for deep penetration strike missions, defending the strike aircraft.


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## BHarwana

CriticalThought said:


> OK, I knew you were pulling our legs. Now I'll delete the post


Let it make it simple the deal was signed and WS-10 part of the deal is still alive but I have no info on how this part of the deal will be used, will it be used in JF-17 J-10b or what ever way PAF has in mind. Pakistan needs interceptor and JF-17 block 3 will complete that role or they will find something else but it will be done until then J-7P/PG and Mirage will remain in service. This is the point that cannot be ignored.

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## CriticalThought

BHarwana said:


> Let it make it simple the deal was signed and WS-10 part of the deal is still alive but I have no info on how this part of the deal will be used, will it be used in JF-17 J-10b or what ever way PAF has in mind. Pakistan needs interceptor and JF-17 block 3 will complete that role or they will find something else but it will be done until then J-7P/PG and Mirage will remain in service. This is the point that cannot be ignored.



Agreed. There is also the possibility that they will quietly re-engineer the F-16s to satisfy their own requirements. But that is mere speculation on my part.

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## SQ8

Hodor said:


> I was told in 2014 by a Paf pilot that the order has been canceled so that 2013 source of yours stands invalid..atleast in my books.


I was told in 2012 by current CPD JF-17 that we were broke as hell. So I don’t see where the 2013 news or order comes in. The “news” itself seems like a rehash.

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## Tank131

@BHarwana, a few things. Firstly J-10 top speed is mach 2.2, F-16 is Mach 2, F-7 is Mach 2, Mirage 3 is Mach 2. They are all in the same general speed range. Saying they are faster this or that doesnt tlchamge anything. The truth of the matter is that the full speed of the fighter is not significant in the modern era. Tell me which top flight airforce uses point defense interceptors still. Rather the focus is on multirole or omnirole. Now to the point of the J-10; it is a good multirole fighter. Its benefit, however in PAF is limited by the fact that is performance (with granted exception of top speed) is smack in the middle of JF-17 and F-16, both of which PAF operate in large numbers. So it offers nothing new in terms of capability, and what new stuff it does bring (electronics and avionics) will likely find their way to the JF-17 blk 3. Yes PAF had initially placed. An. Order for 36, but that was a few years back and nothing materialized. Then the WS-10 came to fruition, however, it is unlikely that PAF would not have been able to get AL-31 given the improved relationship with russia and the the fact that they already get RD-93, the engine was not likely the issue that was holding PAF from inducing the fighter. Rather it was the performance space it occupied (marginally better than JF-17 and marginally worse than F-16).

Now, will anyone be able to prove that the type wont be acquired. Probably not until the FGF or block JF-17 Blk 3 is inducted will we here that the J-10 has been passed by, or until the J-10 is actually in PAF can we say for sure that it will be. Thats how Pakistan's military operates...under conditions of ambiguity.

IMHO the time if the dedicated interceptors is over. The only reason F-7 and Mirage are in service in PAF is because they don't have enough money to to replace them all at once.

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## BHarwana

Tank131 said:


> IMHO the time if the dedicated interceptors is over. The only reason F-7 and Mirage are in service in PAF is because they don't have enough money to to replace them all at once.



Pakistan made the deal in 2009 for J-10 and if Pakistan wanted to replace them then they could. but they did not the only reason Pakistan is not replacing them is because Pakistan has home facility to overhaul them and replace parts. Plus these jets have become sanction free for Pakistan. The J-10b was chosen because of it's good capabilities in Northern areas of Pakistan. Now it all depends on WS-10 engine being integrated into JF-17 if that is done Pakistan don't needs J-10b. There is one more thing that could result in the induction of J10-b is the CPEC and over sea role because platform has been widely successful on the east cost of China.


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## Ultima Thule

BHarwana said:


> Now it all depends on WS-10 engine being integrated into JF-17 if that is done Pakistan don't needs J-10b.


what are you talking about WS-10 in JF-17 not possible in 2009 there is no J-10b is their but J-10A was resons behind the rejection of J-10 in 2009 that it will not bring any new capabilities to PAF when its compare to PAF's F-16 and as for your information J-10 is way a head in thee term of capabilities when its compare to JF-17 better avionics better range, better T/W ratio ( means better agility/maneuverability)better payloads etc etc, think logically Mr @BHarwana


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## Safriz

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/956977984849801221


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## araz

BHarwana said:


> Give an authentic link of order cancellation please. This is a valid request.


You know as well as everyone else that neither China nor Pakistan would want to do that. China made a pact to procure 150 JFT. Did it do so and where did you see their cancellation order? These things just do not happen
The provision of older 16s and MLU has meant PAF is happy to carry on with JFT and 16s. There is no reason to buy an additional platform. There are problems with the AL31 and WS10 has not matured sufficiently for it to be in recokening. There were reports of spectacular J10 flame outs..Main reason for not going for J10 is that it brings nothing on the table for PAF. They have put their money on the JFT and buying another platform would send out the wrong message possibly affecting sale. The 16s are excluded as PAF already has them and they can be easily incorporated into our system. If you look at the last CAS interview he has given some specs of the FGF and it will be either j20 or some other platform. J31 is shortlegged and needs money pouring into it for development. So the likely scenario is a twin engined lo observability platform with an extensive range and internal bays.
A

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## Tank131

BHarwana said:


> Pakistan made the deal in 2009 for J-10 and if Pakistan wanted to replace them then they could. but they did not the only reason Pakistan is not replacing them is because Pakistan has home facility to overhaul them and replace parts. Plus these jets have become sanction free for Pakistan. The J-10b was chosen because of it's good capabilities in Northern areas of Pakistan. Now it all depends on WS-10 engine being integrated into JF-17 if that is done Pakistan don't needs J-10b. There is one more thing that could result in the induction of J10-b is the CPEC and over sea role because platform has been widely successful on the east cost of China.



Respectfully you are making many errors.
1. If PAF wanted to replace them (mirage 3 and f-7) it would have. PAF does want to replace them. By the ACM own account, there are 190 fighters needing replacement. Which are those? Obviously they are F-7P, Mirage 3/5 (then rose 1/2/3 Mirage), tuen F-7PG. The reason the PGs may last the longest is they are newer airframes (the oldest are only 17yrs old delivered in 2001). That was the reason for seeking more F-16s. The Jordanian F-16s would have enabled a sqd to conver quickly from F-7P to a more advanced multirole fighter. They will rapidly replace all F-7P/PG and Mirages if they had the funds and airframe availability. 

2. The WS-10 will never get fit into the JF-17. For starters, its too large. Additionally its probably too powerful for the airframe to handle. The WS-13E/WS-19maybe. Maybe the RD-93MK, But unlikely to get WS-10.

3. The J-10b was non-existent in 2009. Infact the J-10B specifically came about because the performance of the J-10A was subpar per PAF and the B version was created to specifically address the shortcomings identified by PAF. Problem is that the J-10b is not likely to offer performance advantages over the JF-17 to justify the higher cost. Furthermore the electronic advantages it holds will find their way to blk 3 at a cheaper cost. That is why no other nation has elected J-10 yet despite being offered. Nigeria amd Myanmar both went for JF-17 and Argentina was considering it until china revoked the offer of C-802A under British pressure and then the Argentine government changed. Those who could afford J-10 in numbers can usually get western equipment. Those who could benefit from its capabilities cant afford it. The only other nation who could get it financially is Pakistan and you already have Fighters filling the exact role (which is a multirole and strike platform more than an interceptor).

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## BHarwana

araz said:


> You know as well as everyone else that neither China nor Pakistan would want to do that. China made a pact to procure 150 JFT. Did it do so and where did you see their cancellation order? These things just do not happen
> The provision of older 16s and MLU has meant PAF is happy to carry on with JFT and 16s. There is no reason to buy an additional platform. There are problems with the AL31 and WS10 has not matured sufficiently for it to be in recokening. There were reports of spectacular J10 flame outs..Main reason for not going for J10 is that it brings nothing on the table for PAF. They have put their money on the JFT and buying another platform would send out the wrong message possibly affecting sale. The 16s are excluded as PAF already has them and they can be easily incorporated into our system. If you look at the last CAS interview he has given some specs of the FGF and it will be either j20 or some other platform. J31 is shortlegged and needs money pouring into it for development. So the likely scenario is a twin engined lo observability platform with an extensive range and internal bays.
> A



Okay lets stick with what you are saying with out diverting much. 1 Pakistan placed the order after the J10-b in 2012 and first squadron of JF-17 was inducted in 2010 if I am not mistaking. Now Pakistan was only interested in 36 J10-b fighters. So taking the info available in hand this is what can be concluded That Pakistan wanted to buy J-10b for different role from JF-17 and buying only 36 meant that this was purely specific role. The order was placed for J10-b that means it included WS-10 engine and Aesa RADAR as well. So at time it was leap on many technologies available but now current dynamics have changed and I will consider that the deal has changed but the question remains what will happen in between JF-17 block 3 and AZM. To be more specific with the development of AZM we all can conclude that J-20 and J-31 are not coming. Now WS-10 will be the power plant for AZM and this all will take time. So that means if Pakistan is not buying J10-b then JF-17 block 3 will come with Major modifications if not there will be a purchase of J10-b as a breather that is all I can conclude.


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## Ultima Thule

BHarwana said:


> Okay lets stick with what you are saying with out diverting much. 1 Pakistan placed the order after the J10-b in 2012 and first squadron of JF-17 was inducted in 2010 if I am not mistaking. Now Pakistan was only interested in 36 J10-b fighters. So taking the info available in hand this is what can be concluded That Pakistan wanted to buy J-10b for different role from JF-17 and buying only 36 meant that this was purely specific role. The order was placed for J10-b that means it included WS-10 engine and Aesa RADAR as well. So at time it was leap on many technologies available but now current dynamics have changed and I will consider that the deal has changed but the question remains what will happen in between JF-17 block 3 and AZM. To be more specific with the development of AZM we all can conclude that J-20 and J-31 are not coming. Now WS-10 will be the power plant for AZM and this all will take time. So that means if Pakistan is not buying J10-b then JF-17 block 3 will come with Major modifications if not there will be a purchase of J10-b as a breather that is all I can conclude.


your all information are wrong mushi govt order 36 J-10 not in 2009 or in 2012, in mushi term there were only J-10A not J-10b on the horizon at that time so we were getting J-10A at that time, and at the time of 2012 WS-10 were not matured enough and not mass produce at that time and is in testing phase on J-11/su27 and on few J-10B's and as for your information J-10B has a PESA not an AESA, J-10C has a AESA, recently confirmed by the Chinese members that J-10B has a PESA radar go to J-10 discussion thread in Chinese section @BHarwana


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## ziaulislam

araz said:


> You know as well as everyone else that neither China nor Pakistan would want to do that. China made a pact to procure 150 JFT. Did it do so and where did you see their cancellation order? These things just do not happen
> The provision of older 16s and MLU has meant PAF is happy to carry on with JFT and 16s. There is no reason to buy an additional platform. There are problems with the AL31 and WS10 has not matured sufficiently for it to be in recokening. There were reports of spectacular J10 flame outs..Main reason for not going for J10 is that it brings nothing on the table for PAF. They have put their money on the JFT and buying another platform would send out the wrong message possibly affecting sale. The 16s are excluded as PAF already has them and they can be easily incorporated into our system. If you look at the last CAS interview he has given some specs of the FGF and it will be either j20 or some other platform. J31 is shortlegged and needs money pouring into it for development. So the likely scenario is a twin engined lo observability platform with an extensive range and internal bays.
> A


the only problem in this assessment is that f16 hasnt come in numbers we would expect, infact apart from Jordanian f-16 we havent gotten anything major in this decade.

whether this is the result of stiff resistance at capital hill or poor political leadership is different discussion but this has created a clear deficit in PAF fleet, this is only going to get worse if IAF and IN goes with multiple squadrons of rafale and gripen.

PAF will need a fighter before 2025. I dont expect j31 or project AZM being ready by than..
if IAF procure 100 odd Rafale and similar amount of gripen by than , PAF will be vastly outmatched and outgunned in a way it has never been before

PAF has to manage both IN and IAF

solution would be a either major upgrade of jf-17 in line of gripen NG/f16C/D( which i am not sure is going to happen given its almost a new fighter) or new fighter which is what the discussion is about
PAF might lose its minimum credible capability against IAF

a wonderful situation would be J31 getting ready before 2025 and PAF getting 2-3 squardons of it but that has to be seen

or things cooling down and USA allowing PAF to acquire second hand f16s from europe and EDA stock

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## BERKEKHAN2

BHarwana said:


> I don't think so because Pakistan is a customer of J-10b with WS-10 and it is being tested and production will take time.


Why not the J10C

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## I FLY HIGH

Bakshi tufail said:


> Why not the J10C


good question.

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## Tank131

The only way I see PAF ever going for the J-10 is in the event of war and PAF urgently needing fighters. I would not be surprised if a large number of pilots would be trained on the J-10 to enable a rapid transfer of fighters from China to Pakistan in the event of war. Short of that, i see PAF and CAC further developing the JF-17 into blocks 3 and 4 in order to fill the gap. There are currently 75 F-16 and 100 JF-17. Additionally there are 60 F-7pg and roughly 67 ROSE I/II/III Mirages which can likely soldier on for another 7-10 years. That leaves 70 fighters to replace in the next few years. The bulk of these are Mirage 3 and V (Sqn 8, 15, 22) with No 18 Sqd (Sharp Shooters) being the last sqd (i believe) operating the F-7P. If PAC is able to ramp up production to 15-25airframes per year as has been reported to be possible, and the Chinese line (which is open given that Myanmar thunders were likely built there) can pump out a similar number, then PAF could have the aircraft from these 4 squadrons replaced in 1.5-2years (likely by 2020 if blk 3 production starts in 2019 as expected). The block 4 will likely start production in 2022-2023 along with project AZM/J-31 (which i honestly believe to be the same) coming up in 2025. If 70-100 block 3 are made and 50 block 4 by 2023, that puts PAF at ~250-270JF-17 along with 75 F-16 OR 325-345 Fighters by 2023. If PAF needs to it can get the J-10 in a wartime senario, but the goal will be replacing old build block 1 airframes amd bringing FGF online tp start replacing MLU F-16.

I would advocate for a large heavy strike fighter to fill out the numbers a bit. If the Su-35 is unavailable (it is highly unlikely the Chinese flankers could be sold) O still think getting 2 squdrons of JH-7B with the AESA and IRST from J-11D or J-16, and a good HMS paired with Pl-10 and Pl-15 and its myriad of strike weapoms including the ability to field 4AShM or probably 2 RAAD in addition to carrying 4 A2A missiles and fuel. Pair it with PAF AWACS via a data link and this thing could be a bomb/missile truck that could significantly decrease the pressure on JF-17 in the naval and strike roles and ease some burden on PAF to get newer fighters (probably could get 40 fighters in 2 years, replacing the rose II/III Sqd very easily).

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## BERKEKHAN2

I FLY HIGH said:


> good question.


[emoji23]


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## Talon

Oscar said:


> I was told in 2012 by current CPD JF-17 that we were broke as hell. So I don’t see where the 2013 news or order comes in. The “news” itself seems like a rehash.


Only the ACM himself can satisy Mr @BHarwana..he's not going to believe anyone on PDF

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## Inception-06

Tank131 said:


> The only way I see PAF ever going for the J-10 is in the event of war and PAF urgently needing fighters. I would not be surprised if a large number of pilots would be trained on the J-10 to enable a rapid transfer of fighters from China to Pakistan in the event of war. Short of that, i see PAF and CAC further developing the JF-17 into blocks 3 and 4 in order to fill the gap. There are currently 75 F-16 and 100 JF-17. Additionally there are 60 F-7pg and roughly 67 ROSE I/II/III Mirages which can likely soldier on for another 7-10 years. That leaves 70 fighters to replace in the next few years. The bulk of these are Mirage 3 and V (Sqn 8, 15, 22) with No 18 Sqd (Sharp Shooters) being the last sqd (i believe) operating the F-7P. If PAC is able to ramp up production to 15-25airframes per year as has been reported to be possible, and the Chinese line (which is open given that Myanmar thunders were likely built there) can pump out a similar number, then PAF could have the aircraft from these 4 squadrons replaced in 1.5-2years (likely by 2020 if blk 3 production starts in 2019 as expected). The block 4 will likely start production in 2022-2023 along with project AZM/J-31 (which i honestly believe to be the same) coming up in 2025. If 70-100 block 3 are made and 50 block 4 by 2023, that puts PAF at ~250-270JF-17 along with 75 F-16 OR 325-345 Fighters by 2023. If PAF needs to it can get the J-10 in a wartime senario, but the goal will be replacing old build block 1 airframes amd bringing FGF online tp start replacing MLU F-16.
> 
> I would advocate for a large heavy strike fighter to fill out the numbers a bit. If the Su-35 is unavailable (it is highly unlikely the Chinese flankers could be sold) O still think getting 2 squdrons of JH-7B with the AESA and IRST from J-11D or J-16, and a good HMS paired with Pl-10 and Pl-15 and its myriad of strike weapoms including the ability to field 4AShM or probably 2 RAAD in addition to carrying 4 A2A missiles and fuel. Pair it with PAF AWACS via a data link and this thing could be a bomb/missile truck that could significantly decrease the pressure on JF-17 in the naval and strike roles and ease some burden on PAF to get newer fighters (probably could get 40 fighters in 2 years, replacing the rose II/III Sqd very easily).




Sir we agree, but do you have the same opinion about the J-10C that it is not a needed aircraft by the PAF ?


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## Incog_nito

Is there any chance or need in PAF for any other fighter?
Rafael
EF-2000
Grippen
J-10B/BS
F-16s from USA (used Block-15)


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## BHarwana

Hodor said:


> Only the ACM himself can satisy Mr @BHarwana..he's not going to believe anyone on PDF


When for 5 years here every one can say a valid news false so I can say that his word is needed.


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## salman-1

J10 in PAF would be like " Too late the Hero"


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## SQ8

BHarwana said:


> When for 5 years here every one can say a valid news false so I can say that his word is needed.


Please advise proof of validity: you are just basing an old statement saying it is still true.



Oxair Online said:


> Is there any chance or need in PAF for any other fighter?
> Rafael
> EF-2000
> Grippen
> J-10B/BS
> F-16s from USA (used Block-15)


The first is a NO, the second is a long shot and expensive, the third is pointless as the JF-17 is very similar
The fourth is just a Chinese F-16 at the end of the day, lest @Deino takes that to heart.

And we’re saying goodbye to America.

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## BHarwana

Oscar said:


> Please advise proof of validity: you are just basing an old statement saying it is still true.


I am not bashing any statement my friend. I just provided the statement and the statement was always there. At the moment the deal might not be there I totally agree but this deal was live and had taken place at the time so every one bashing that deal was never made is wrong. I have no knowledge of current state of deal and affairs and so does every one else here has no knowledge it is just that.


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## Ahmet Pasha

We might have to raise the number of fighters as well by a few squadrons to counter growing numbers in Indian inventory.


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## Tank131

Ulla said:


> Sir we agree, but do you have the same opinion about the J-10C that it is not a needed aircraft by the PAF ?



I think the same issue for the J-10b is true for the J-10C unless there is some dramatic change in the airframe or engine or both. It physically occupies a space between JF-17 and F-16. It isnt significantly changing PAF capability. PAF could use them in case of war with a quick transfer, but short of that, it doesn't make much sense. J-10 is a good fighter, it just doesn't bring anything new to PAF that cant be had by making more JF-17. Electronically, its equipment (or variations of it) will end up on JF-17 anyways so no advantages there. 



BHarwana said:


> I am not bashing any statement my friend. I just provided the statement and the statement was always there. At the moment the deal might not be there I totally agree but this deal was live and had taken place at the time so every one bashing that deal was never made is wrong. I have no knowledge of current state of deal and affairs and so does every one else here has no knowledge it is just that.



The problem is that the statement was true that 36 FC-20 Aircraft were approved for acquisition. The issue is at the time J-10A didn't meet the standards of the paf so china developed J-10b. The PAF never explicitly said which variant was FC-20, nor did it commit to buying the aircraft...but from the government perspective, the sale was approved. Following Mushy's government, there was a massive economic downturn and it seems the project was shelved given the lack of interest from PAF and lack of $$ from government. Now tje problem is much of this shelving issue is speculation given there was no deal signed and no J-10b has found its way PAF despite plenty of opportunity and time. All of this is speculation until it either shows up or doesn't. The discussion is rather pointless until them. As i said, i think PAF would be better served by having a heavy striken fighter like JH-7B with an AESA/IRST radar off J-11B/J-16, HMS and a LINK17 to allow ZDK-03 to guide its weapons.

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## BHarwana

Tank131 said:


> The problem is that the statement was true that 36 FC-20 Aircraft were approved for acquisition. The issue is at the time J-10A didn't meet the standards of the paf so china developed J-10b. The PAF never explicitly said which variant was FC-20, nor did it commit to buying the aircraft...but from the government perspective, the sale was approved. Following Mushy's government, there was a massive economic downturn and it seems the project was shelved given the lack of interest from PAF and lack of $$ from government. Now tje problem is much of this shelving issue is speculation given there was no deal signed and no J-10b has found its way PAF despite plenty of opportunity and time. All of this is speculation until it either shows up or doesn't. The discussion is rather pointless until them. As i said, i think PAF would be better served by having a heavy striken fighter like JH-7B with an AESA/IRST radar off J-11B/J-16, HMS and a LINK17 to allow ZDK-03 to guide its weapons.



My friend the statement was always about J-10b with WS-10 engines when they would be developed and in 2012 there was a meeting on the possible time frame of deliveries. The suggested reports of deal being canceled only emerged in 2016 with no credible source. At that time Pakistan was not looking for procurement because Pakistan was already inducting JF-17. So the deal was made and the status is unknown. My thinking is that deal was canceled in favor of AZM or JF-17 Block 3 what ever case is but the current status of deal is unknown. Pakistan's procurement always come as a surprise. There are many things that Pakistan procure from China but never tells and one day out of a sudden Pakistan will announce that we have this capability. So I have no knowledge and I am not qualified to comment on the current status of the deal it is all speculations.


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## SQ8

BHarwana said:


> I am not bashing any statement my friend. I just provided the statement and the statement was always there. At the moment the deal might not be there I totally agree but this deal was live and had taken place at the time so every one bashing that deal was never made is wrong. I have no knowledge of current state of deal and affairs and so does every one else here has no knowledge it is just that.


I said basing.. not bashing.. you have based your knowledge on obsolete information whereas the current state of affairs is different.

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## BHarwana

Oscar said:


> I said basing.. not bashing.. you have based your knowledge on obsolete information whereas the current state of affairs is different.



Have I ever said that it is current state I said I have no knowledge of current state on the deal. I know that according to Wikipedia the deal was canceled in 2016 so if we take that info into account the deal was there till 2016 but you and I both know about the info of Wikipedia is posted by normal posters and any one can update that post. So what ever is being done no one knows but this is an evidence that there will be another platform coming to Pakistan. Now it is domestically made or foreign purchased but the deal being dragged to 2016 means Pakistan intent to include another platform. If the deal is canceled that means Pakistan has some better option than J-10 b that is why they are canceling it.


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## Talon

BHarwana said:


> I am not bashing any statement my friend. I just provided the statement and the statement was always there. At the moment the deal might not be there I totally agree but this deal was live and had taken place at the time so every one bashing that deal was never made is wrong. I have no knowledge of current state of deal and affairs and so does every one else here has no knowledge it is just that.


U were constatly asking for a proof thay deal was cancelled which implies that u beileve that the deal is still active and now u are changing ur stance.
Secondly,most of the people u argued here never said that the deal wasnt made infact what I and many others said that the deal has been cancelled.
And if u dont have info of current state of the deal and others try to tell u that it has been cancelled you ask for links.Bhai jan everything is not posted on the internet.

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## BHarwana

Hodor said:


> U were constatly asking for a proof thay deal was cancelled which implies that u beileve that the deal is still active and now u are changing ur stance.
> Secondly,most of the people u argued here never said that the deal wasnt made infact what I and many others said that the deal has been cancelled.
> And if u dont have info of current state of the deal and others try to tell u that it has been cancelled you ask for links.Bhai jan everything is not posted on the internet.


My friend I am neither denying nor accepting any thing I am just saying there is no info on deal being still in place or being canceled. In conclusion I don't know any thing about the current status of the deal. How hard is that to understand.


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## ziaulislam

BHarwana said:


> My friend I am neither denying nor accepting any thing I am just saying there is no info on deal being still in place or being canceled. In conclusion I don't know any thing about the current status of the deal. How hard is that to understand.


no money no honey simple

very few countries in the world can afford to maintain a large fourth gen fighter fleet

the only viable solution in current fiscal constrains are mass produced jet which is either the jf-17 or the f-16 due to existing infrastructure and training even that only used ones 

now i am not saying Pakistan doesn't has money, i am saying PAF doesn't has money...
after all, how come PIA add a total liability of 450 billion rupees if we didnt had money!...
forget about the DESCOs and steel mills...

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## Ultima Thule

BHarwana said:


> My friend the statement was always about J-10b with WS-10 engines when they would be developed and in 2012 there was a meeting on the possible time frame of deliveries. The suggested reports of deal being canceled only emerged in 2016 with no credible source. At that time Pakistan was not looking for procurement because Pakistan was already inducting JF-17. So the deal was made and the status is unknown. My thinking is that deal was canceled in favor of AZM or JF-17 Block 3 what ever case is but the current status of deal is unknown. Pakistan's procurement always come as a surprise. There are many things that Pakistan procure from China but never tells and one day out of a sudden Pakistan will announce that we have this capability. So I have no knowledge and I am not qualified to comment on the current status of the deal it is all speculations.


Bro you have all wrong information mushy government order j-10a, there was no j-10b at that time and next government (Zardari) was eat the funds of fc-20 and also those fund depleted by 2005 earthquake and there was WS-10 was in early phase of development tested on Chinese Su-27 at that time do research before you post @BHarwana since than no talks/order for either j-10a or j-10b @BHarwana


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## fatman17

Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman has underlined need to continue operational training to meet aerial warfare challenges.He said Combat Commanders School has been imparting quality operational training to future commanders which is vital for war preparedness of Pakistan Air Force. https://t.co/Ij80UQOH77


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## fatman17

fatman17 said:


> Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman has underlined need to continue operational training to meet aerial warfare challenges.He said Combat Commanders School has been imparting quality operational training to future commanders which is vital for war preparedness of Pakistan Air Force. https://t.co/Ij80UQOH77
> View attachment 450866


But Sir, what about the Drones! !!!


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## BHarwana

ziaulislam said:


> no money no honey simple
> 
> very few countries in the world can afford to maintain a large fourth gen fighter fleet
> 
> the only viable solution in current fiscal constrains are mass produced jet which is either the jf-17 or the f-16 due to existing infrastructure and training even that only used ones
> 
> now i am not saying Pakistan doesn't has money, i am saying PAF doesn't has money...
> after all, how come PIA add a total liability of 450 billion rupees if we didnt had money!...
> forget about the DESCOs and steel mills...



Money has always been there for this purchase since the deal was signed. PAF always keep a kitty. and that kitty has increased ever since.



pakistanipower said:


> Bro you have all wrong information mushy government order j-10a, there was no j-10b at that time and next government (Zardari) was eat the funds of fc-20 and also those fund depleted by 2005 earthquake and there was WS-10 was in early phase of development tested on Chinese Su-27 at that time do research before you post @BHarwana since than no talks/order for either j-10a or j-10b @BHarwana



Please stop spreading American propaganda to boost F-16 sales kindly. If Pakistan placed the order for j10a they would have been delivered because deal was live in 2016 and 2009 to 2016 is a lot of time for delivery. The funds for PAF cannot be rolled back by civil Govt so no one can do any thing Pakistani Military structure is different there is no civilian govt corruption in the procurement section get educated on Pakistan affairs first then comment.


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## Talon

BHarwana said:


> Money has always been there for this purchase since the deal was signed. PAF always keep a kitty. and that kitty has increased ever since.
> 
> 
> 
> Please stop spreading American propaganda to boost F-16 sales kindly. If Pakistan placed the order for j10a they would have been delivered because deal was live in 2016 and 2009 to 2016 is a lot of time for delivery. The funds for PAF cannot be rolled back by civil Govt so no one can do any thing Pakistani Military structure is different there is no civilian govt corruption in the procurement section get educated on Pakistan affairs first then comment.


You said you only knew that the deal was live in 2013(as per your link).Now how did 2016 come in...where's the link to that?

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## BHarwana

Hodor said:


> You said you only knew that the deal was live in 2013(as per your link).Now did 2016 came in...where's the link to that?



Here my friend read in my reply to Oscar I said that this is from Wikipedia and there are some media reports about the deal in 2016 but no confirmation. In only 2013 there is firm evidence of the deal after that there is nothing on Media. I am no insider at PAF with claims I am just reading news as all of us here.




Few things to clear (This is all assessment and I could be wrong)

Deal was made for J-10b with WS-10 and AESA

The deal was perused as well till 2012 and 2013

Pakistan has a plan to buy a second platform other than JF-17

Pakistan is not interested in F-16 and Mirage 2000 any more the requirement for PAF is different. (In all the time frame there were many cheap second hand F-16 and Mirage 2000 were available but Pakistan never went for them)

Current status is unknown about the deal.

This is all I can asses from the info available.


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## Talon

BHarwana said:


> I am no insider at PAF with claims I am just reading news as all of us here.


You said you had lots of friends at the airforce and now again your are backing off from your posts by saying this.
Not everyone here relies on internet.
Only a noob would trust wikipedia in such matters.
Come on man dont be Dr. Shahid Masood...just agree to the facts instead of changing your stance again and again.

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## BHarwana

Hodor said:


> You said you had lots of friends at the airforce and now again your are backing off from your posts by saying this.
> Not everyone here relies on internet.
> Only a noob would trust wikipedia in such matters.
> Come on man dont be Dr. Shahid Masood...just agree to the facts instead of changing your stance again and again.


Yes I have many friends in PAF. But I also said that I can relly on them because they don't know any thing them selves only test pilots know don't quote my statements half man.

Yes only a noob will rely on Wikipedia so please read my statement again where I said that Wikipedia is updated by general public.

Dr. Shahid Masood has inside info like you. I don't have any inside info. 

You want to be the one with inside PAF info you are most welcome to be I am not a PAF insider I am just a common Pakistani with no military ties and I an just a noob kid with access to internet. But I know how to use internet and get info which I need Mr. PAF insider.


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## Talon

BHarwana said:


> Yes I have many friends in PAF. But I also said that I can relly on them because they don't know any thing them selves only test pilots know don't quote my statements half man.
> 
> Yes only a noob will rely on Wikipedia so please read my statement again where I said that Wikipedia is updated by general public.
> 
> Dr. Shahid Masood has inside info like you. I don't have any inside info.
> 
> You want to be the one with inside PAF info you are most welcome to be I am not a PAF insider I am just a common Pakistani with no military ties and I an just a noob kid with access to internet. But I know how to use internet and get info which I need Mr. PAF insider.


First of all I never said I am a PAF insider...dont make false comments.
Secondly,if u didnt rely on wikipedia and read to get information then u wouldnt be quoting it here...simple AF.
Now again u say u have lots of paf friends and then say *common pakistani with no military ties*...you indeed are a kid.
If like Dr Shahid u cant defend ur point(being that the deal is still active) then just accept it...why argue?


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## BHarwana

Hodor said:


> First of all I never said I am a PAF insider...dont make false comments.
> Secondly,if u didnt rely on wikipedia and read to get information then u wouldnt be quoting it here...simple AF.
> Now again u say u have lots of paf friends and then say *common pakistani with no military ties*...you indeed are a kid.
> If like Dr Shahid u cant defend ur point(being that the deal is still active) then just accept it...why argue?



My friend I know that I provided a legit link to PAF j-10b order is hurting your ego but let it go and get over it. This is a PAF discussion thread not a discussion thread on me.

I have friends in PAF but they are not my military ties. Do you think that having friends in PAF makes us more than a common Pakistani? I have friends and they are my friends not my military ties and yes I am a common Pakistan. Now where is the contradiction here? PAF employees don't share info to common Pakistanis so they are friends not military ties, you need to grow up and get over the idea of being common is some thing bad.


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## Ultima Thule

BHarwana said:


> Please stop spreading American propaganda to boost F-16 sales kindly. If Pakistan placed the order for j10a they would have been delivered because deal was live in 2016 and 2009 to 2016 is a lot of time for delivery. The funds for PAF cannot be rolled back by civil Govt so no one can do any thing Pakistani Military structure is different there is no civilian govt corruption in the procurement section get educated on Pakistan affairs first then comment.


you beleive what you what you want and Wikipedia good for your health i am not trying to boost F-16 to Pakistan whatever you think i am just stating the facts that there was no J10b in either 2006 or in 2009
and after Zardari govt there were no fund for buying J-10a or b after Zardari govt Pakistan had no intention to buy J-10 or whatever version of version of J-10 because JF-17 has a almost same capabilities as the J-10 have with a exceptions of payloads, at the time of ordering J-10A (mushy govt) WS-10 was a initial phase of development testing on Chinese Su-27 at that time, do research before you post @BHarwana other than wikipedia , its a sincere advice Mr @BHarwana after canceling the order in mushy term there were no further orders of J-10



BHarwana said:


> My friend I know that I provided a legit link to PAF j-10b order is hurting your ego but let it go and get over it. This is a PAF discussion thread not a discussion thread on me.


you are insisted your crap again and again, initial order of 36 J-10A in mushy term after no further consideration/orders for J-10 neither in 2009 or in 2012 that is the answer for your silly question @BHarwana


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## araz

BHarwana said:


> My friend I know that I provided a legit link to PAF j-10b order is hurting your ego but let it go and get over it. This is a PAF discussion thread not a discussion thread on me.
> 
> I have friends in PAF but they are not my military ties. Do you think that having friends in PAF makes us more than a common Pakistani? I have friends and they are my friends not my military ties and yes I am a common Pakistan. Now where is the contradiction here? PAF employees don't share info to common Pakistanis so they are friends not military ties, you need to grow up and get over the idea of being common is some thing bad.


Why are we having an ego trip in this matter. The article that was quoted was from 2013. There has been no announcement fromPAF regarding procuring J10. WS10 is not yet that mature that PAF would bet on it.AL31FN is not currently being sold to PAF As of now 5years post the news there is still no sign of J10. If you have a source that has told you that. J10 is being procured we need to agree to disagree and move on. Repeated postings based on old news is not a good way of discussion

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## Irfan Baloch

araz said:


> Why are we having an ego trip in this matter. The article that was quoted was from 2013. There has been no announcement fromPAF regarding procuring J10. WS10 is not yet that mature that PAF would bet on it.AL31FN is not currently being sold to PAF As of now 5years post the news there is still no sign of J10. If you have a source that has told you that. J10 is being procured we need to agree to disagree and move on. Repeated postings based on old news is not a good way of discussion


you summed it up well.
Chinese were willing to park the J-10 to whatever base we wanted but it didnt even reach the MoU stage beyond our PAF personnel and leadership being shown the jet and some photo ops. many factors like the funding and the question about its power plant and then JF-17's improvement over 10 years and so has pretty much put any such possibility on the back burner


on other note rest of the members please avoid personal remarks and avoid pointless one liners or thread bans will follow

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## araz

Irfan Baloch said:


> you summed it up well.
> Chinese were willing to park the J-10 to whatever base we wanted but it didnt even reach the MoU stage beyond our PAF personnel and leadership being shown the jet and some photo ops. many factors like the funding and the question about its power plant and then JF-17's improvement over 10 years and so has pretty much put any such possibility on the back burner
> 
> 
> on other note rest of the members please avoid personal remarks and avoid pointless one liners or thread bans will follow


If you remember Hkhan of pakdef.info reported significant flame outs of J10 engines which would have been problematic for PAF. The fact remains that only in the dreams of fanboys will you induct a platform that brings nothing more than a bit more range( irrelevant now due to IFR ) and more HPs. There have been quite a few questions asked about the harxpoints of J10 as inspite of its ?11 hardpoints apparantly 4 can only house dumb bombs so what do we gain and DERs will eventually obviate that need as well.
We may yet buy the damned thing but the reasons may be on account of increasing number of obsolescent platforms and delays/setbacks in the 5th generation projject. If you have heard the CAS interview his explanation about the range and other requirements points to a long range multirole stealth fighter. If there are delays and our friends toys cause them to be exuberant then perhaps or maybe shoved down our throats for some other gains. However we always say Pak cheen dosti Zinda baad.
A

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## ziaulislam

BHarwana said:


> Money has always been there for this purchase since the deal was signed. PAF always keep a kitty. and that kitty has increased ever since.
> Please stop spreading American propaganda to boost F-16 sales kindly. If Pakistan placed the order for j10a they would have been delivered because deal was live in 2016 and 2009 to 2016 is a lot of time for delivery. The funds for PAF cannot be rolled back by civil Govt so no one can do any thing Pakistani Military structure is different there is no civilian govt corruption in the procurement section get educated on Pakistan affairs first then comment.


okay, keep your fantasies alive
fact is we dont have money for f-16, j-10 or anything, even the jf-17s were produced on credit lol

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## fatman17

The PLAAF may only have just a handful of J-20s for deployment due to a manufacturing bottleneck. Photo: PLA Daily





Why the PLA’s J-20 jet-fighter has been so hard to spot

It was expected China would produce up to three of the stealth planes every month, but only a handful so far exist

By ASIA TIMES STAFF
JANUARY 29, 2018 

China’s advanced multirole J-20 jets have been hard to find since they entered into service with the People’s Liberation Army Air Force almost one year ago, and it isn’t just because they are super stealth fighters.

Embarassingly, the country’s leading aerospace plant is struggling to meet orders for the plane that was trumpeted as China’s answer to the US F-22 and the Russian T-50 PAK FA, with only a handful having so far been produced due to undisclosed manufacturing glitches.

Hong Kong-based Kanwa Defence Review, citing sources within the PLAAF, as well as recent satellite imagery, said it was likely to be some time before any more fighters exited the Chengdu Aerospace Corp factory in western Sichuan province, even as orders piled up.

All the PLAAF can do in the meantime is maintain and service the existing J-20 inside two hangars at the Dingxin airbase in the northwestern province of Gansu, the publication noted.

The J-20 was hailed by China as a technological marvel when it was first unveiled officially in 2016, able to transform the PLA from “a predominantly territorial air force to one capable of conducting both offensive and defensive operations”. It was expected that up to three of the highly-manoeavrable fighters would be produced each month.


The first J-20s take part in drills at China’s Dingxin airbase. Photo: Weibo
Two totally sealed hangars erected at Dingxin were reportedly intended to house the J-20s which, unlike the US F-22, must be kept at a constant temperature and in a humidity-controlled environment during downtime to preserve their delicate stealth coating. The room temperature needs to be kept at 22 degrees Celsius (71.6 Fahrenheit).

The fact that only two hangers can be seen in satellite photos may be further evidence of the J-20’s supply crunch at the Chengdu plant.

It appears Dingxin has been earmarked as the base for the new generation of fighters, which may have also a role as bombers and spy planes, for both the air force and navy. Xinhua and the PLA Daily have hinted the initial batch of J-20s is undergoing combat drills to mimic dogfights with the F-22 Raptor, the plane China used as its model.

Whether the J-20 will match up to such lofty standards as a genuine fifth-generation fighter is still being debated, with some observers convinced the Chinese plane is at best a 4.5-generation effort because it is powered by only a subsonic engine: either the Russian-made Saturn AL-31 or China’s homemade WS-10A Taihang. The jet’s medium-sized fans could be a drag on its speed and will thus affect its air superiority.


China has developed its own turbofan engine, the WS-15, under the codename of Emei, but tests are continuing to ascertain its durability. The engine would theoretically be capable of turning the J-20 into a truly supersonic fighter.

However, military commentator Andrei Chang pointed out in the Kanwa Defence Review article that the J-20’s hull would need to be retrofitted to accommodate the bigger thrust-weight ratio of the Emei engine, and any modification to the airframe would require meticulous test flights before the planes could go into full deployment.

It is not expected that the engine will be ready until 2019, by which time the PLA was supposed to be graduating to an upgraded stealth fighter, the J-20B. Perhaps it has decided to hold fire on the current model, which might explain why the Chengdu factory is marking time.

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## Army research

Bakshi tufail said:


> PAF Mirages getting Cheetah upgrade from South Africa with major avionics & weapons upgrade along with new engine SMR-95.
> The upgrade consisted of a complete refurbishment of the airframe down to zero hours, the fitting of non-moving canards , two new stores pylons at the wing roots, an aerial refuelling probe, a new powerful engine.
> 
> So J10's aren't coming


Radar ?


----------



## HRK

Bakshi tufail said:


> PAF Mirages getting Cheetah upgrade from South Africa with major avionics & weapons upgrade along with new engine SMR-95.
> The upgrade consisted of a complete refurbishment of the airframe down to zero hours, the fitting of non-moving canards , two new stores pylons at the wing roots, an aerial refuelling probe, a new powerful engine.
> 
> So J10's aren't coming


plz post source of this speculation

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## Ahmet Pasha

Indian Air Intelligence hehehe


HRK said:


> plz post source of this speculation


----------



## The Accountant

Bakshi tufail said:


> PAF Mirages getting Cheetah upgrade from South Africa with major avionics & weapons upgrade along with new engine SMR-95.
> The upgrade consisted of a complete refurbishment of the airframe down to zero hours, the fitting of non-moving canards , two new stores pylons at the wing roots, an aerial refuelling probe, a new powerful engine.
> 
> So J10's aren't coming


You forgot to mention radar obsorbent material, super cruise capability, tvc, hmds and gan based aesa radar


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## Incog_nito

Is PAF looking to get more used F-16s or they are just keeping the old fleet and getting new JF-17s?


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## ziaulislam

Oxair Online said:


> Is PAF looking to get more used F-16s or they are just keeping the old fleet and getting new JF-17s?


old f16s are not available to paf

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## fatman17

History made today by #PAF as #JF17 Thunder fires Beyond Visual Range and Infrared Missiles with Pin point accuracy at a range near #Karachi. #Pakistan https://t.co/ORM65TcSv6

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## fatman17

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/959414113599459328

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## fatman17

#Pakistan operationalizes advanced weapon test range developed with #Chinese help

It was a landmark occasion for the #PAF as well as the whole nation, when the indigenously produced #JF17 Thunder shot down a slow speed target with BVR & IR missile with pin point accuracy https://t.co/eVw7YcoKGb

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## salman-1

How it will be confirmed which missile is used and with what new targeting equipment or pod for infra red. Comments awaited


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## ghazi52

*Pakistan successfully test-fires ‘beyond visual range’ missile from JF-17 Thunder*


KARACHI: It was a landmark occasion for Pakistan Air Force (PAF) as well as the whole nation, when the indigenously produced JF-17 Thunder shot down a slow speed target with BVR (Beyond Visual Range) and IR (Infrared) missile with a pin-point accuracy at Sonmiani firing range on Friday.

Chief of the Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman witnessed the live demonstration, displaying PAF’s capability to successfully locate and destroy high/ slow speed moving targets by employing high-tech inventory of aircraft and missiles, said a PAF press release.

Addressing the ceremony, the air chief said, “We are thankful to Allah Almighty who has given us the strength to achieve this extraordinary milestone. The successful testing of these sophisticated weapons is a testimony of JF-17 Thunder’s multirole capabilities.”






He said it was a matter of immense pride that six PAF fighter squadrons had already been equipped with the pride of the nation JF-17 Thunder aircraft, making it the backbone of our aerial defence.

The air chief also lauded the hard work put in by PAF and Chinese personnel in making the event a success.

“The day marked a monumental episode in the glorious history of PAF as a state-of-the-art Weapon Test Range has been made operational to track the complete trajectory of the aircraft and launched missiles,” read the press release.

The facility, developed in collaboration with Chinese authorities, is equipped with real time tracking and measuring equipment to qualify the indigenously developed and procured weapon systems.

Earlier, Air Vice Marshal Haseeb Paracha, Air Officer Commanding, Southern Air Command received the chief guest on his arrival at the venue. High ranking PAF officers along with civil and military officials also witnessed this historic event.

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## BHarwana

Pakistan Now has total six JF-17 fighter squadrons complete now.


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## fatman17

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/959728248107294720

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## CriticalThought

fatman17 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/959728248107294720



May I ask what's the relevance to PAF???

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## fatman17

CriticalThought said:


> May I ask what's the relevance to PAF???



bad memories

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## khanasifm

fatman17 said:


> #Pakistan operationalizes advanced weapon test range developed with #Chinese help
> 
> It was a landmark occasion for the #PAF as well as the whole nation, when the indigenously produced #JF17 Thunder shot down a slow speed target with BVR & IR missile with pin point accuracy https://t.co/eVw7YcoKGb
> View attachment 451368
> View attachment 451369



A new color of camo ?? Not sure what service ?


----------



## GriffinsRule

fatman17 said:


> bad memories


Should be in the memories thread instead of news...

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## Readerdefence

khanasifm said:


> A new color of camo ?? Not sure what service ?


Hi can they be from army air defence . 
Thx


----------



## BHarwana

Who is this sitting in JF-17


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## Tps43

BHarwana said:


> Who is this sitting in JF-17


our beloved Guests.


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## WaLeEdK2

BHarwana said:


> Who is this sitting in JF-17


i think he's russian but not sure who exactly


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## BHarwana

tps77 said:


> our beloved Guests.





WaLeEdK2 said:


> i think he's russian but not sure who exactly


Yep he is Russian Air Chief.

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## Tps43

BHarwana said:


> Yep he is Russian Air Chief.


Waiting for JFT 17B to come then he can have a ride of it.

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## BHarwana

PAF will receive 14 more JF-17 this year.


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## Tps43

and how many B's?


BHarwana said:


> PAF will receive 14 more JF-17 this year.


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## syed_yusuf

dont PAC promised to keep the 16 examples a year pipeline going???


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## fatman17

syed_yusuf said:


> dont PAC promised to keep the 16 examples a year pipeline going???


The production line can deliver 25 aircraft per year. It all depends on the order book for domestic and exports. If PAF needs 14, they will deliver 14.


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## muhammadali233

HRK said:


> plz post source of this speculation


PAF did in recent history purchased some SA mirages/cheetah which had zero hour on clock.All of 'em were cannibalised. 
So he is not all wrong.


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## GriffinsRule

muhammadali233 said:


> PAF did in recent history purchased some SA mirages/cheetah which had zero hour on clock.All of 'em were cannibalised.
> So he is not all wrong.



Just the wings, not the airframes


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## fatman17

The UAE Air Force C-17 came across the trailer carrying JF-17 fuselage at Chengdu Shuangliu Airport. https://t.co/EOJZlbs8GT https://t.co/qbRzYb09Na

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## BERKEKHAN2

fatman17 said:


> The UAE Air Force C-17 came across the trailer carrying JF-17 fuselage at Chengdu Shuangliu Airport. https://t.co/EOJZlbs8GT https://t.co/qbRzYb09Na
> View attachment 452246


Will it be officially inducted into PAF or just or ceremonial events


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## BHarwana

PAF First JF-17 reached CAC facility for overhaul and feed backs. 13 Nov 2017

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## fatman17

Military Capabilities

Pakistan sets up instrumented weapon test range at Sonmiani

Gabriel Dominguez, London - Jane's Defence Weekly

07 February 2018

The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has set up an instrumented weapon test range (WTR) at the Sonmiani firing range in Balochistan Province designed to “track the complete trajectory of aircraft and launched missiles”, according to a 2 February report by the state-owned Associated Press of Pakistan (APP).

The facility, which was developed with support from China, is equipped with “real-time tracking and measuring equipment to qualify the indigenously developed and procured weapon systems”, reported the media outlet citing an official press release.

To qualify the measuring equipment at the new WTR, Pakistani-built JF-17 Thunder multirole combat aircraft shot down aerial targets using beyond-visual-range and infrared missiles.

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## Trailer23




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## BHarwana

Who wants to see the shape of JF-17 Block 3. Hehehe I have a possible picture.

It is a debatable image to lets debate. The possible Design of block 3.


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## Army research

BHarwana said:


> Who wants to see the shape of JF-17 Block 3. Hehehe I have a possible picture.
> 
> It is a debatable image to lets debate. The possible Design of block 3.
> 
> View attachment 452724


That's just 17B on the right and a trainer craft on the left

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## PWFI

BHarwana said:


> Who wants to see the shape of JF-17 Block 3. Hehehe I have a possible picture.
> 
> It is a debatable image to lets debate. The possible Design of block 3.
> 
> View attachment 452724


L-15 Period

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## BHarwana

PWFI said:


> L-15 Period


Yep agreed.


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## fatman17

Just a nice picture

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## BHarwana

A nice picture

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## Path-Finder



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## fatman17

China’s J-20 stealth fighter jet lines up for combat duty, boosting firepower in the sky

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## fatman17

Meet a Martyr J/T Wajahat Hussain From Special Services Wing (SSW), Pakistan Air Force. 

Today is his 3rd Martyrdom Anniversary.

Please pray for his family may almighty give them strength to bear this lose . https://t.co/Y11ENzFh8a

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## Ahmet Pasha

I had never heard of him. Was he in COIN operations in NW??


fatman17 said:


> Meet a Martyr J/T Wajahat Hussain From Special Services Wing (SSW), Pakistan Air Force.
> 
> Today is his 3rd Martyrdom Anniversary.
> 
> Please pray for his family may almighty give them strength to bear this lose . https://t.co/Y11ENzFh8a
> View attachment 453057


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## Cuirassier

Badaber i guess. Or not.


----------



## Readerdefence

fatman17 said:


> Meet a Martyr J/T Wajahat Hussain From Special Services Wing (SSW), Pakistan Air Force.
> 
> Today is his 3rd Martyrdom Anniversary.
> 
> Please pray for his family may almighty give them strength to bear this lose . https://t.co/Y11ENzFh8a
> View attachment 453057


RIP brother may Allah bless his soul and give him Jannah

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## fatman17

S200 that shot down the IDAF F16

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## Windjammer

*Green, Lean, Mean Fighting Machine. *
Green Helmet with matching visor looks the works for this FT-7PG rider.

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## BHarwana

Just came across this Image of JF-17 is this JF-17 in Turkey???






link to the image.
https://quwa.org/2016/11/11/discussion-with-klj-7a-could-an-aesa-radar-equipped-jf-17-come-sooner/

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## Talon

Windjammer said:


> *Green, Lean, Mean Fighting Machine. *
> Green Helmet with matching visor looks the works for this FT-7PG rider.
> 
> View attachment 453322


Flt Lt Abdur rehman...Tigers operator..pity the picture has been stolen from his profile pic.


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## Windjammer

Hodor said:


> Flt Lt Abdur rehman...Tigers operator..pity the picture has been stolen from his profile pic.


Stolen ???.... how many people would have heard about this individual.....isn't there a possibility that he may have shared it with some one , !!


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## Talon

Windjammer said:


> Stolen ???.... how many people would have heard about this individual.....isn't there a possibility that he may have shared it with some one , !!


He's famous on instagram with nearly 5k followers...and he didnt post it,only used it for profile picture which can easily be saved through many apps.

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## Chak Bamu

Hodor said:


> He's famous on instagram with nearly 5k followers...and he didnt post it,only used it for profile picture which can easily be saved through many apps.



I am not sure if a discussion of the ethics of sharing DPs is the right thing to do on this thread. DPs are quite public and if you have an issue with sharing them over here, please address the Webmaster on an appropriate thread. He can discuss the same with WindJammer if he thinks that sharing public DPs is an issue for PDF. Thanks.

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## Talon

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Y u always such a
> View attachment 453500


Beta ap apni studies pe concentrate kro...PDF pe thora time spend kea kro.



Chak Bamu said:


> I am not sure if a discussion of the ethics of sharing DPs is the right thing to do on this thread. DPs are quite public and if you have an issue with sharing them over here, please address the Webmaster on an appropriate thread. He can discuss the same with WindJammer if he thinks that sharing public DPs is an issue for PDF. Thanks.


First of all I never blamed @Windjammer for stealing the picture.

Instagram DPs aren't that private...you cant open them like FB or other sites and there's a reason to that which should be respected.I just made a comment man no need to start a debate with fellow users and admins.

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## SQ8

Hodor said:


> Beta ap apni studies pe concentrate kro...PDF pe thora time spend kea kro.
> 
> 
> First of all I never blamed @Windjammer for stealing the picture.
> 
> Instagram DPs aren't that private...you cant open them like FB or other sites and there's a reason to that which should be respected.I just made a comment man no need to start a debate with fellow users and admins.


Actually Insta DPs are too small in restricted mode to open anyway to get this resolution- this is either FB or someone already with access to the Instagram account; in that case it’s the pilots fault on who he allows in.
But to debate privacy on the internet is folly, we have situations linked outside of where military officers have ended up with playthings in the usual bravado and then when they try to eject out of the situation their chutes are snagged by the scorned women and pictures outed.

Same way we had a situation where a AMC girls dp was taken off a google search of her FB account.

So if you put a picture up on the internet, you already signed away your privacy rights.


----------



## Safriz

Hodor said:


> Beta ap apni studies pe concentrate kro...PDF pe thora time spend kea kro.
> 
> 
> First of all I never blamed @Windjammer for stealing the picture.
> 
> Instagram DPs aren't that private...you cant open them like FB or other sites and there's a reason to that which should be respected.I just made a comment man no need to start a debate with fellow users and admins.


Same thing happened to me. I run a large enough Facebook page and someone sent me a video of a joint Pakistan China air force exercise. The video was unique and interesting, so I posted and it went viral. Got 1000 + shares within a few days. 
Then the actual pilot who recorded the video whith his mobile phone while flying the PAF jet cake round and messaged me on FB via the page, saying that the video was "Stolen" from a Watts app group where he posted it for viewing of members who as a select group of ex and serving military personnel. I am not a member of that Watts app group but I knew someone who was in there and requested to investigate. He told me that yes the video was posted in the group by squadron leader such and such, but he did not add any footnote asking members to keep it private or not to share with public, so people took the liberty and shared the video on their Watts app and other social media platforms.
I deleted the video from my page and messaged back the Squadron leader sahib about how his video reached me and probably other social media platforms and he sounded very disappointed about how allegedly his close friends in the Watts app group breached his trust.
But the blame was mutual. People get arrested for driving a car while using a mobile phone and here a PAF squadron leader was using mobile phone while flying a multi million dollar armed jet? And it doesn't stop here , he also recorded the Chinese electronic warfare plane flying next to him and video showing very detailed view of Chinese jet. Did the Chinese allow him or PAF to record Their electronic warfare jet in such a way?
I felt sorry for the guy and raised multiple copyright claims with faceFace, Google and other platforms where I saw the same video being posted. Some platforms removed the video, some didn't. So the video may still be out there, breaching not only Pakistan's but also Chinese national security.
Out military men should be more mature and responsible and stop making such teenager mistakes.

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## Clairvoyant

Windjammer said:


> Stolen ???.... how many people would have heard about this individual.....isn't there a possibility that he may have shared it with some one , !!


Happens to be someone I personally know and he didnt share it with anyone.

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## CriticalThought

شاھین میزایل said:


> Same thing happened to me. I run a large enough Facebook page and someone sent me a video of a joint Pakistan China air force exercise. The video was unique and interesting, so I posted and it went viral. Got 1000 + shares within a few days.
> Then the actual pilot who recorded the video whith his mobile phone while flying the PAF jet cake round and messaged me on FB via the page, saying that the video was "Stolen" from a Watts app group where he posted it for viewing of members who as a select group of ex and serving military personnel. I am not a member of that Watts app group but I knew someone who was in there and requested to investigate. He told me that yes the video was posted in the group by squadron leader such and such, but he did not add any footnote asking members to keep it private or not to share with public, so people took the liberty and shared the video on their Watts app and other social media platforms.
> I deleted the video from my page and messaged back the Squadron leader sahib about how his video reached me and probably other social media platforms and he sounded very disappointed about how allegedly his close friends in the Watts app group breached his trust.
> But the blame was mutual. People get arrested for driving a car while using a mobile phone and here a PAF squadron leader was using mobile phone while flying a multi million dollar armed jet? And it doesn't stop here , he also recorded the Chinese electronic warfare plane flying next to him and video showing very detailed view of Chinese jet. Did the Chinese allow him or PAF to record Their electronic warfare jet in such a way?
> I felt sorry for the guy and raised multiple copyright claims with faceFace, Google and other platforms where I saw the same video being posted. Some platforms removed the video, some didn't. So the video may still be out there, breaching not only Pakistan's but also Chinese national security.
> Out military men should be more mature and responsible and stop making such teenager mistakes.



OUCH!!!!!!!!!!! This is SERIOUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

@WebMaster @The Eagle @Horus how can we raise this with relevant authorities???

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## Talon

Oscar said:


> Actually Insta DPs are too small in restricted mode to open anyway to get this resolution- this is either FB or someone already with access to the Instagram account; in that case it’s the pilots fault on who he allows in.
> But to debate privacy on the internet is folly, we have situations linked outside of where military officers have ended up with playthings in the usual bravado and then when they try to eject out of the situation their chutes are snagged by the scorned women and pictures outed.
> 
> Same way we had a situation where a AMC girls dp was taken off a google search of her FB account.
> 
> So if you put a picture up on the internet, you already signed away your privacy rights.


Yeah instagram DPs cant be opened thorugh the original app but there are many apps on playstore through which u can open DP of target account and save it.I know this pilot and also follow him instagram and he didnt post it there,just used it for dp(only to prevent it get reposted but alas log kisi ko ni chorty).

Postings pictures on social media...yeah thats their own fault.But people especially females use their own DPs on insta just bcuz they cant be opened in the original app and I think it should be respected.

I know 2 friends of mine against whom airforce took some action just bcz they kept posting selfies while flying(didnt hide their name and sqn in the pictures).



شاھین میزایل said:


> Same thing happened to me. I run a large enough Facebook page and someone sent me a video of a joint Pakistan China air force exercise. The video was unique and interesting, so I posted and it went viral. Got 1000 + shares within a few days.
> Then the actual pilot who recorded the video whith his mobile phone while flying the PAF jet cake round and messaged me on FB via the page, saying that the video was "Stolen" from a Watts app group where he posted it for viewing of members who as a select group of ex and serving military personnel. I am not a member of that Watts app group but I knew someone who was in there and requested to investigate. He told me that yes the video was posted in the group by squadron leader such and such, but he did not add any footnote asking members to keep it private or not to share with public, so people took the liberty and shared the video on their Watts app and other social media platforms.
> I deleted the video from my page and messaged back the Squadron leader sahib about how his video reached me and probably other social media platforms and he sounded very disappointed about how allegedly his close friends in the Watts app group breached his trust.
> But the blame was mutual. People get arrested for driving a car while using a mobile phone and here a PAF squadron leader was using mobile phone while flying a multi million dollar armed jet? And it doesn't stop here , he also recorded the Chinese electronic warfare plane flying next to him and video showing very detailed view of Chinese jet. Did the Chinese allow him or PAF to record Their electronic warfare jet in such a way?
> I felt sorry for the guy and raised multiple copyright claims with faceFace, Google and other platforms where I saw the same video being posted. Some platforms removed the video, some didn't. So the video may still be out there, breaching not only Pakistan's but also Chinese national security.
> Out military men should be more mature and responsible and stop making such teenager mistakes.


Yeah it totally depends on the officer himself...I know guys who dont even use social media just bcz to prevent such incidents...yeah they too take selfies and videos but dont share on the internet.And there are some who dont even take selfies,their only passion is flying and dedication to their profession.


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## fatman17

The #PakistanAirForce gained a new squadron, No.28 'Phoenix'. It will be based at Samungli Air Base, Quetta. Pakistan Falcon's photogallery showed the first pre-delivery photograph of 17-238 in 28sq markings.
#AvGeek #JF17Thunder https://t.co/pnBegVMJbT

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## fatman17

28 Sqdn JF17 Block ll

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## Talon

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 453842
> 
> 28 Sqdn JF17 Block ll


Nope...its assigned to B Panthers and I posted this photo here few months back.

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## Talon

Cobras..Rafiqui Boys

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## Raider 21

Hodor said:


> Cobras..Rafiqui Boys
> View attachment 453920


"Welcome to Cobra Country" was the banner at Peshawar AB when the squadron was flying F-6s.

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## fatman17

China's military modernization challenges US air power - report
Published time: 14 Feb, 2018 19:38
Edited time: 15 Feb, 2018 09:43

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## Falgrine

BHarwana said:


> Just came across this Image of JF-17 is this JF-17 in Turkey???
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> link to the image.
> https://quwa.org/2016/11/11/discussion-with-klj-7a-could-an-aesa-radar-equipped-jf-17-come-sooner/



Paris 2015. I was there standing next to this A/C, and saw how the crowd swelled around it after a great show in the air was put by Wng. Cmdr. Usman Ali.

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## BHarwana

@Zarvan @Windjammer 

5203 AVIC

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## mingle

BHarwana said:


> @Zarvan @Windjammer
> 
> 5203 AVIC
> 
> View attachment 454225


Looks like PAF whole focus is now jf17 which is very good move.

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## alimobin memon

BHarwana said:


> @Zarvan @Windjammer
> 
> 5203 AVIC
> 
> View attachment 454225


hi what is special about 5203 ?

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## BHarwana

alimobin memon said:


> hi what is special about 5203 ?



They are test beds for some New technology. When ever Test beds fly that means new tech is being tested. Air forces don't fly in paint less jets.

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## BHarwana

Super Mushshak delivered to Nigeria 








_I can count 10 Super Mushshak_

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## syed_yusuf

alimobin memon said:


> hi what is special about 5203 ?


is it for MAF not PAF?


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## BHarwana

syed_yusuf said:


> is it for MAF not PAF?



JF-17 MAF 1701


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## syed_yusuf

BHarwana said:


> JF-17 MAF 1701


this was an old order of that 4 delivered. the new order is in process.


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## BHarwana

syed_yusuf said:


> this was an old order of that 4 delivered. the new order is in process.


Yes but jets that fly in yellow color in china are always test beds.


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## Shabi1

BHarwana said:


> Yes but jets that fly in yellow color in china are always test beds.


Not too long a PAF JF-17 was sent to Chengdu for aircraft fatigue testing and overhaul. It could be it.

https://quwa.org/2017/11/12/first-jf-17-will-undergo-major-overhaul-avic/

"
Briefly, major aircraft overhaul would involve disassembling the entire aircraft down to its individual parts, after which each part is closely inspected for damage or anomalies. These parts will either be repaired or replaced entirely with brand new components. During the overhaul process the depot would also examine the aircraft’s wiring as well as hydraulic and fuel pipes, which may necessitate repair or replacing. The aircraft is re-assembled and put through tests before returning to use.

The PAF’s Block-I fighters will require major overhaul work through the 2020s.
"


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## Talon

*Saffron Bandit to start from next week...*

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## blinder

5203, I would say 5th user, block II, third in batch. 
So probably the 3rd for Myanmar on a testflight.


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## Ahmet Pasha

@waz @The Eagle @WebMaster 
Hi mods a few of my posts were deleted a short while ago. Can you please explain why they were deleted.
or what those posts were so I can ascertain whether I was even at fault in first place??


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## fatman17



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## ghazi52

Khyber pakhtunkhwa's biggest foundation stone for the project will be placed in the Swabi February 20. 
The project consists of a thousand land Canal in which the first PAF Khyber pakhtunkhwa Cadet College, technical school, *300 bed hospital*, PAF sports grounds Education Center .

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## fatman17

Industry

Saab notes AEW&C sales successes in 2017

Gareth Jennings, London - IHS Jane's Defence Industry

16 February 2018

Saab secured SEK3.35 billion (USD420 million) in sales for its airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) systems in 2017, the company disclosed during its annual results briefing on 16 February.

Saab secured two sales for its airborne early warning and control platforms in 2017, though the classified nature of the contracts means that few details have bene made public. Saab

The figure was secured across two separate sales announced in January and May of last year, valued at SEK2 billion and SEK1.35 billion respectively.

The nature of the AEW&C contracts was such that Saab declined to divulge further details on either deal, except to say that the first award would see deliveries from 2019 to 2021, with those for the second running from 2017 to 2020.

Saab did not disclose its customers in either of these instances, but it was reported at the time that the second SEK1.35 billion deal would probably cover three new Erieye aircraft for Pakistan. These would replace one Saab 2000-based Erieye aircraft that the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) lost in an insurgent attack on its operating base in 2013, and augment the remaining three that were ordered in 2006 for a full-strength force of six.

If this order is for Pakistan, it is not clear if it will comprise the same Saab 2000 turboprop-based system as the country’s original order, or if it will be based on the company’s latest Global 6000 business jet-based GlobalEye that features the S-band (2 to 4 GHz) Erieye Extended Range (ER) radar.

While these latest two contracts have been shrouded in secrecy, Saab has previously publicised a deal for the GlobalEye with the United Arab Emirates (UAE) under the platform’s previously held moniker of Swing Role Surveillance System (SRSS). However, the company has consistently declined to discuss this contract since the initial announcement in 2015.

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## The Eagle

Ahmet Pasha said:


> @waz @The Eagle @WebMaster
> Hi mods a few of my posts were deleted a short while ago. Can you please explain why they were deleted.
> or what those posts were so I can ascertain whether I was even at fault in first place??



Because posts have no value, adding nothing to the topic in hand or worth reading w.r.t. subject of this thread. Please avoid such discussion. 

Regards,


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## Shabi1

In 2014 a bomb exploded while being dropped from a PAF F-16B. Aircraft was damaged and despite multiple systems failures and a non responsive throttle it was saved and flying in PAF after repairs.

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## fatman17

CM-400AKG







This supersonic standoff missile was first on display at the 2012 Zhuhai Airshow as part of FC-1/JF-17's "complete" weapon package. Unlike most modern ASMs flying at the low altitude, the missile flies a rare high ballistic trajectory, powered by a solid rocket motor. It appears that CM-400AKGmay have evolved from the earlier SY-400 SRBM. Therefore the effectiveness of such attack profile is still unknown. Some specifications: weight 900kg, max range 240km, max speed Mach 5.5 (at diving stage?). It has INS during the mid-course and utilizes active/passive radar/IIR seeker with target-recognition capabilities at the terminal stage, which may improve its accuracy. CM-400AKG is speculated to have been designed to attack fixed or "slow moving", high value ground targets. Up to two CM-400AKGs can be carried by an FC-1/JF-17. A small yellow dorsal antenna was installed probably to provide the datalink between the missile and the aircraft. It has yet to see if CM-400AGK will enter the service with PAF. A recent image (July 2016) suggested that the program was still making progress with JF-17 seen undergoing weapon integration tests, possibly to meet the requirement of a new customer.
- Last Updated 2/19/18


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## syed_yusuf

No matter what paf is saying in public, I believe pakistan got cm400akg in decent numbers


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## Shabi1

Did see a inventory/procurement document for the CM-400AKG. Can't recall number but PAF has a sizable quantity on order. Was unable to find the document again.


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## Cuirassier

Shabi1 said:


> Did see a inventory/procurement document for the CM-400AKG. Can't recall number but PAF has a sizable quantity on order. Was unable to find the document again.


Check this out.

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## fatman17

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/966295598545608704

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## TOPGUN

fatman17 said:


> Industry
> 
> Saab notes AEW&C sales successes in 2017
> 
> Gareth Jennings, London - IHS Jane's Defence Industry
> 
> 16 February 2018
> 
> Saab secured SEK3.35 billion (USD420 million) in sales for its airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) systems in 2017, the company disclosed during its annual results briefing on 16 February.
> 
> Saab secured two sales for its airborne early warning and control platforms in 2017, though the classified nature of the contracts means that few details have bene made public. Saab
> 
> The figure was secured across two separate sales announced in January and May of last year, valued at SEK2 billion and SEK1.35 billion respectively.
> 
> The nature of the AEW&C contracts was such that Saab declined to divulge further details on either deal, except to say that the first award would see deliveries from 2019 to 2021, with those for the second running from 2017 to 2020.
> 
> Saab did not disclose its customers in either of these instances, but it was reported at the time that the second SEK1.35 billion deal would probably cover three new Erieye aircraft for Pakistan. These would replace one Saab 2000-based Erieye aircraft that the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) lost in an insurgent attack on its operating base in 2013, and augment the remaining three that were ordered in 2006 for a full-strength force of six.
> 
> If this order is for Pakistan, it is not clear if it will comprise the same Saab 2000 turboprop-based system as the country’s original order, or if it will be based on the company’s latest Global 6000 business jet-based GlobalEye that features the S-band (2 to 4 GHz) Erieye Extended Range (ER) radar.
> 
> While these latest two contracts have been shrouded in secrecy, Saab has previously publicised a deal for the GlobalEye with the United Arab Emirates (UAE) under the platform’s previously held moniker of Swing Role Surveillance System (SRSS). However, the company has consistently declined to discuss this contract since the initial announcement in 2015.
> 
> View attachment 454771



fatman17 , bro do you think PAF will go for the jet version of the saab AEW&C things time ?


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## Readerdefence

Hi an


fatman17 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/966295598545608704


Hi any info about the plane which one it can be ? Looks like j11 
Thx


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## syed_yusuf

TF141 said:


> Check this out.
> View attachment 455193



they missed C602 and C302

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## fatman17

India abandons procurement of single engine fighters, will focus on twin engine types. so no F16 or Gripen on the horizon.

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## fatman17

TOPGUN said:


> fatman17 , bro do you think PAF will go for the jet version of the saab AEW&C things time ?


If made available then why not otherwise they will stick to their current type.

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## Windjammer

*Commandant Central Flying School, RAF College, Cranwell and OC Advanced Examiners, following a K-8 sortie at a PAF Base. CFS was in Pakistan to exchange ideas on the latest instructional techniques the RAF uses for pilot training. A very successful visit to 2 bases and also to the Air HQ in Islamabad.*

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## Raider 21

Windjammer said:


> *Commandant Central Flying School, RAF College, Cranwell and OC Advanced Examiners, following a K-8 sortie at a PAF Base. CFS was in Pakistan to exchange ideas on the latest instructional techniques the RAF uses for pilot training. A very successful visit to 2 bases and also to the Air HQ in Islamabad.*
> 
> View attachment 456091


And they couldn't have sent any better guys there. The man on the right flew for the RAF Red Arrows as a pilot and he flew vintage aircraft for the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight. 

The FIS course at PAF Risalpur was originally designed and modified over the years through inputs and feedback from CFS Cranwell.

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## syed_yusuf

fatman17 said:


> India abandons procurement of single engine fighters, will focus on twin engine types. so no F16 or Gripen on the horizon.


Is this a news or a statement?


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## Talon

Windjammer said:


> *Commandant Central Flying School, RAF College, Cranwell and OC Advanced Examiners, following a K-8 sortie at a PAF Base. CFS was in Pakistan to exchange ideas on the latest instructional techniques the RAF uses for pilot training. A very successful visit to 2 bases and also to the Air HQ in Islamabad.*
> 
> View attachment 456091


833 is deployed at Mianwali...had the honour to sit in its cockpit when I visited FCU 4 years ago.


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## fatman17

syed_yusuf said:


> Is this a news or a statement?


Take it as you like it


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## TsAr

syed_yusuf said:


> Is this a news or a statement?


https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...or-wider-competition/articleshow/63034958.cms


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## fatman17

fatman17 said:


> India abandons procurement of single engine fighters, will focus on twin engine types. so no F16 or Gripen on the horizon.


View: Why India should not delay its fighter jet procurement

stlbeacon.org - 2/28/2018


By cancelling the single engine fighter jet procurement and expanding it to include twin engine fighters, the government is trying to find a different result by trying the same thing as it was done in the previous MMRCA tender which it scrapped in 2015. The reason apparently is due to the furore created over the Rafale deal and the government does not want allegations later as there were only two contenders for the single engine jet, Lockheed Martin F-16 and SAAB Gripen.

See the full article at stlbeacon.org


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## HRK




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## Tps43

HRK said:


> View attachment 456614


Parts/spares of Spada 2000 or maybe new batteries.

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## fatman17

The Pakistan Air Force stood up No 28 Sqn today, equipped with JF-17 Thunders, at PAF Base Samungli, Quetta. One of its roles will be to defend Pakistan's western border 24/7. The new OC of 28 (MR) Sqn is Wg Cdr Amir Cheema. Nice to see so many familiar faces in this photo https://t.co/PLNxvMQtTH

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## fatman17

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/968838024250445824


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## fatman17

Its not often you see a brand new squadron standing up these days, So I'm pleased the PAF CAS is showing off the unit's insignia with the 28 (MR) Sqn OC, Wg Cdr Amir Cheema. https://t.co/fSDTfSxnKn

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## hassan1



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## araz

fatman17 said:


> The Pakistan Air Force stood up No 28 Sqn today, equipped with JF-17 Thunders, at PAF Base Samungli, Quetta. One of its roles will be to defend Pakistan's western border 24/7. The new OC of 28 (MR) Sqn is Wg Cdr Amir Cheema. Nice to see so many familiar faces in this photo https://t.co/PLNxvMQtTH
> View attachment 456726


_Intersting. No demonstration of IFR. I think they should ot miss any opportunity to demonstrate IFR capability to ram it down people's throats._ Buth another good step in the right direction.
A

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## Tps43

fatman17 said:


> The Pakistan Air Force stood up No 28 Sqn today, equipped with JF-17 Thunders, at PAF Base Samungli, Quetta. One of its roles will be to defend Pakistan's western border 24/7. The new OC of 28 (MR) Sqn is Wg Cdr Amir Cheema. Nice to see so many familiar faces in this photo https://t.co/PLNxvMQtTH
> View attachment 456726


The Guy standing 4th from left , Which unit he is commanding in sumungli ? I know all other guys but not him.


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## araz

hassan1 said:


> View attachment 456750
> View attachment 456751
> View attachment 456752
> View attachment 456753
> View attachment 456754


@Windjammer Your friend is sitting right next to the chief in the first photo. We all want to see the day when he is in the chief's chair.
A

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## Tps43

araz said:


> @Windjammer Your friend is sitting right next to the chief in the first photo. We all want to see the day when he is in the chief's chair.
> A


2021


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## PakShaheen79

MashaAllah. So No 28 is up and I am expecting the count soaring to at least No 30 with JF-17B and Block III yet to join. It is noteworthy that PAF is expanding during times when IAF's strength has decreased in terms of overall squadron strength. Certainly, IAF would be watching this development and it is expected that we see lots of propaganda on Indian media to fetch lots of extra funds to raise new squadrons.


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## Raider 21

PakShaheen79 said:


> MashaAllah. So No 28 is up and I am expecting the count soaring to at least No 30 with JF-17B and Block III yet to join. It is noteworthy that PAF is expanding during times when IAF's strength has decreased in terms of overall squadron strength. Certainly, IAF would be watching this development and it is expected that we see lots of propaganda on Indian media to fetch lots of extra funds to raise new squadrons.


They'll panick regardless....bullies always bark more. When PAF ordered 13 second hand F-16s from Jordan...the Indian government lost their mind. But when the Indian government orders 250 Su-30MKIs and later on 36 Rafales....then obviously nothing is wrong with that. They fear PAF........

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## Dazzler

Knuckles said:


> They'll panick regardless....bullies always bark more. When PAF ordered 13 second hand F-16s from Jordan...the Indian government lost their mind. But when the Indian government orders 250 Su-30MKIs and later on 36 Rafales....then obviously nothing is wrong with that. They fear PAF........



So do the israelis for all the right reasons


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## Windjammer

*PAF’s No 88 Squadron Equipped With Augusta Helicopters*






ISLAMABAD, Mar 03 (APP) Pakistan Air Force (PAF) achieved a significant milestone, when its No 88 Search & Rescue squadron was re-equipped with AW-139 (Augusta Westland) helicopters on Saturday.
With the induction of this state-of-the-art helicopter on its inventory, this Search & Rescue squadron has been renamed as No 88 Combat Support Squadron and Advanced Helicopter Training School, said a press release issued here by media affairs directorate of PAF.
To mark this significant event in the glowing history of PAF, a ceremony was held at PAF Base, Shahbaz (Jacobabad). Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force was the chief guest on the occasion.
During the ceremony, Air Chief reviewed a smartly turned-out guard of honour by the personnel of the Base. A three-ship formation, comprising 01 MI 171 and 02 AW 139 Augusta, helicopters presented the fly past over the venue.
Speaking on the occasion, the Air Chief said, “PAF, after an in-depth analysis of the Search & Rescue platforms available worldwide, selected AW-139 as the most effective solution for our requirements. The state-of-the-art machine that we have inducted is a manifestation of stern commitment of Pakistan Air Force to modernization and capability enhancement.
“I firmly believe that this will become a stepping stone in achieving more complex capabilities as regard to the Helo fleet. The AW-139
promises a feature of enhancing PAF capability due to its versatile roles. The vision of taking Helo fleet of PAF into 21st century could not have been achieved any other way,” he added.
He said, “Today, Alhamdulillah; the long awaited vision of PAF to acquire night and maritime Search & Rescue capability has been achieved with the AW-139 operationalisation”.
The induction of AW-139 helicopters would considerably enhance
the operational capabilities of this squadron which was flying vintage MI 171 helicopters earlier. Being a pioneer squadron of AW-139 helicopters in PAF, it would also serve as a conversion unit for the young pilots to train them on this system.
High ranking military officials along with civil dignitaries also attended the ceremony.


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## hassan1



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## fatman17

Why all spot light on #PAF AW139 only?
Army got AW139 of their own too [emoji5]
In total, 11 AW139 are with Pakistan, 5 used for civilian purpose while remaining 6 are part of armed forces as Search & Rescue (#SAR) units. More unknown number of units are on order. https://t.co/LGKtObdzfc


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## Shabi1

fatman17 said:


> Why all spot light on #PAF AW139 only?
> Army got AW139 of their own too [emoji5]
> In total, 11 AW139 are with Pakistan, 5 used for civilian purpose while remaining 6 are part of armed forces as Search & Rescue (#SAR) units. More unknown number of units are on order. https://t.co/LGKtObdzfc
> View attachment 457420



Airforce version looks different and a updated variant.


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## Bossman

New and upgraded bases, more Erieyes, increased training cooperation with RAF, enhanced search and rescue capability. All this are a precursor to? Yes Typhoons! Might be linked to upcoming Saudi order.

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## Army research

Bossman said:


> New and upgraded bases, more Erieyes, increased training cooperation with RAF, enhanced search and rescue capability. All this are a precursor to? Yes Typhoons! Might be linked to upcoming Saudi order.


That would be very unusual, yet nothing normal in this world.

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## fatman17

PAF Jf17 successfully test fired C802-AK Anti Ship missile following final day of #PAF & #PN joint exercise #Rabat_18 https://t.co/6PgYAboXVp

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## Maxpane

Wow great


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## Yasser76

Shabi1 said:


> Airforce version looks different and a updated variant.



It is, has FLIR, Search light, Night cam, winch and countermeasures, will be used for CSAR, Army for regular troop transport


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## fatman17

Pakistan’s Air Force has inducted the AW139 helicopter into service, being assigned to its No 88 search and rescue squadron which is now designated as a advanced helicopter training school. The event was marked by a ceremony held at PAF Base, Shahbaz (Jacobabad) with Chief of the Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman as the chief guest, with other high ranking military officials civil dignitaries also in attendance. In February 2017, manufacturer Leonardo announced the sale of an undisclosed number of AW139s to Pakistan with the aim to use them in a variety of utility and transport roles.


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## araz

fatman17 said:


> Pakistan’s Air Force has inducted the AW139 helicopter into service, being assigned to its No 88 search and rescue squadron which is now designated as a advanced helicopter training school. The event was marked by a ceremony held at PAF Base, Shahbaz (Jacobabad) with Chief of the Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman as the chief guest, with other high ranking military officials civil dignitaries also in attendance. In February 2017, manufacturer Leonardo announced the sale of an undisclosed number of AW139s to Pakistan with the aim to use them in a variety of utility and transport roles.


Sir jee.
How many platcorms inducted and how many more proposed or ordered?
A


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## fatman17

araz said:


> Sir jee.
> How many platcorms inducted and how many more proposed or ordered?
> A


Total so far 11 for army and AF. More on the way.


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## fatman17

The first JF-17B was sighted at Kamra. No surprise if you follow us, four weeks ago we reported the hulk on a trailer ready for air transport in China (see https://t.co/TjFQs2OUuS). This shot was taken in one of PAC's hangars comes courtesy of PAF fan page Fizaiya. #avgeek https://t.co/bZo1ts5KoG


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## fatman17

Patch of 88 SAR

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## blinder

As far as I know, there are at least 13 AW139, but likely, 14 delivered:

SIX-050 to SIX-055 [6] op by ERC
16-062 & 16-063, so likely also 16-061; op by Army [2 or 3]
EYE73 [1] op by gvmt
17-001 & 17-002 plus two more (temp Italy reg CSX81922 and 81923) [4] op by Air Force

I recall reading somewhere that the AW order was for 14. That is after the ERC examples. That would bring the grand total to 20. If that is the case we could see around six more being delivered this year and next.

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## GriffinsRule

Of the AW-139s operated by PAA, at least two are configured for VIP transport.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

GriffinsRule said:


> Of the AW-139s operated by PAA, at least two are configured for VIP transport.


Acc. to the MoDP 2015-2016 yearbook, 4 AW139s were ordered, seemingly split between the PAF and PAA (i.e. 2 each). The PAF's AW139s are clearly SAR-centric, but at least one of the PAA's has been used for VIP, but it's unclear if is configured for VIP (e.g. special seating) or if such things are fixed (possibly modular/removable). 

A second AW139 batch was ordered in Feb. 2017, but we don't know how many. If the PAF plans to replace its Alouette IIIs with the AW139s, then I suppose we can look to 10-12 more AW139s in the long-run.

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## khanasifm

http://www.scramble.nl/orbats/pakistan/airforce


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## fatman17

C130 Hercules, AW139 SAR and F16 Vipers at PAF Base Shabaz [emoji1191][emoji1191][emoji1191] https://t.co/jCsQ9LLu59

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## Tps43

fatman17 said:


> C130 Hercules, AW139 SAR and F16 Vipers at PAF Base Shabaz [emoji1191][emoji1191][emoji1191] https://t.co/jCsQ9LLu59
> View attachment 457859


1 C-130 is always stationed at Shabaz for any contingency.


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## hassan1



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## fatman17

Naval Weapons

PN, PAF successfully test-fire C-802 anti-ship cruise missiles

Gabriel Dominguez, London - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

06 March 2018

This image shows PNS Saif an F-22P-class frigate, test-firing a Chinese-built C-802 radar-guided anti-ship missile in the North Arabian Sea on the final day of the ‘RIBAT-18’ exercise. Source: Via ISPR

The Pakistan Navy (PN) and the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) have successfully test-fired various Chinese-built radar-guided anti-ship cruise missiles to demonstrate the services’ “firepower and combat readiness”, according to a 5 March statement by Inter-Services Public Relations (ISPR): the media wing of the Pakistani military.

The test-firings took place in the North Arabian Sea on the final day of the ‘RIBAT-18’ exercise, with the C-802AK missile being launched from a PAF JF-17 Thunder multirole combat aircraft and the C-802 missile from a PN Sword (F-22P)-class guided-missile frigate.

“Missiles launched from both platforms successfully hit their intended targets, which not only re-asserts the efficacy of [the] weapon systems but also manifests the extended range of joint PN-PAF sea-air operations and desired synergy between the two services,” said ISPR.

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## fatman17

Air Platforms

PAF equips SAR squadron with AW139 helicopter, says report

Gabriel Dominguez, London - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

06 March 2018

The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has equipped its No 88 search-and-rescue (SAR) squadron with the AgustaWestland AW139 multirole twin-engine helicopter, according to a 3 March report by the Associated Press of Pakistan (APP).

Citing a PAF press statement, the state-owned media outlet also reported that the squadron was renamed “No 88 Combat Support Squadron and Advanced Helicopter Training School” following the induction of the platform.

PAF commander Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman, who attended a ceremony to mark the event at the Shahbaz Air Base (Jacobabad), was quoted by AAP as saying that the PAF had selected the AW139 “as the most effective solution for our requirements” after an in-depth analysis of the SAR platforms available worldwide.

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## fatman17

The navy and air force of Pakistan have conducted joint live-fire exercises of anti-ship missiles. Conducted on March 5 under the watchful eye of Chief of the Naval Staff, Admiral Zafar Mahmood Abbasi along with Chief of the Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman, the Chinese-made C-802 missiles were fired from the multi-mission F-22P frigate PNS Saif and JF-17 fighter aircraft with all missiles hitting their targets. The firing was held on the final day of Exercise RIBAT-18, which focused on validating war fighting concepts under the evolving multi faceted threats.

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## fatman17




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## fatman17

ASIA DEFENSE
Pakistan Stands Up New Fighter Squadron

Image Credit: Wikimedia Commons/ Eric Salard

Pakistan Stands Up New Fighter Squadron
The Pakistan Air Force inaugurated a new JF-17 fighter squadron in Quetta last month.


By Franz-Stefan Gady
March 08, 2018



The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) stood up a new fighter squadron composed of Aeronautical Complex/Chengdu Aerospace Corporation (PAC/CAC) JF-17 “Thunder” multirole fighter jets in Quetta, Balochistan last month, according to local media reports.

The new squadron, designated Number 28 “Phoenix,” is the sixth PAF unit to receive the JF-17 lightweight, single-engine, multirole combat aircraft to date. “From now on, No. 28 MR Squadron, equipped with Pakistan’s (…) JF-17, has the responsibility of providing day and night aerial defense of the country, especially along the western borders of Pakistan [shared with Iran and Afghanistan],” the PAF Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman was quoted as saying by the Associated Press of Pakistan (APP).

The PAF is expected to induct 150 JF-17 combat aircraft over the next years, split into three productions blocks: Block I, Block II, and Block-III. PAC has so far produced 50 Block I aircraft and 50 Block II JF-17s. Twelve more Block II JF-17 aircraft are expected to be rolled out in 2018. Pakistan is estimated to be capable of assembling up to 25 JF-17 aircraft per year without technical or logistical assistance from China. (PAC produces 58 percent of the airframe and CAC 42 percent.) Once the Block-II JF-17 order is complete this year, PAC will switch to producing the aircraft’s most advanced version.

Among other things, “the JF-17 Block III, the latest variant of the combat aircraft, will feature new avionics including Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA), which will replace the older Nanjing Research Institute of Electronic Technologies’ (NRIET) KLJ-7 X-band fire control radar, and a new electronic warfare system, among other things,” I summarized in 2017. A selected number of Block II and the future Block III variants also feature an in-flight refueling (IFR) probe, which suggests that the aircraft could be deployed for longer-range maritime strike missions. (The PAF and Navy have recently conducted a live-fire exercise, which included the launch of an anti-ship missile from a JF-17.)

Powered by a Russian designed but Chinese license-built Klimov RD-93 (a RD-33 derivative) turbofan engine, the aircraft can reportedly reach a top speed of up to Mach 1.6 and has an operational range of up to 1,200 kilometers without refueling. The fighter jet can be armed with a variety of weapons and features seven hardpoints. The JF-17 is reportedly capable of carrying a weapons payload of over 3.5 tons, including air-to-air, air-to-surface, and anti-ship missiles.

“The JF-17 was originally developed to replace the PAF’s aging fleet of Dassault Mirage III/5 fighter jets by 2o20,” I explained in 2016. “Pakistan is looking to replace 190 aircraft — primarily Chengdu F-7 and Dassault Mirage III/5 fighter jets — by 2020 presumably with a mixture of F-16 and JF-17 aircraft.”

Pakistan and China are also working on a two-seat trainer variant of the JF-17, dubbed JF-17B, which, according to some reports, could be the basis for the JF-17 Block III version of the aircraft.“In comparison to the single-seat JF-17, the JF-17B variant features a dorsal fin that contains an additional fuel tank,” I reported in May 2017. The aircraft prototype also has a slightly larger wingspan and a marginally modified nose section and features a larger swept-back vertical stabilizer housing a new three-axis fly-by-wire system.

Pakistan is looking to export the JF-17.


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## STRANGER BIRD

*F7PG Thunderbolts lined up at Samungli air base*

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## Shabi1

According to PAF active aircraft list on wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_Pakistan_Air_Force_aircraft

F-16s = 76
Mirage 3s = 75 (2025 retirement)
Mirage 5s = 82 (2025 retirement)
JF-17 = 100
F-7PGs = 60

Total = 393

F-7Ps have been replaced by JF-17s with F-7PG variant remaining in service. But now instead of retiring Mirages PAF chose to raise a new squadron.

Mirages alone are 75+85 = 160. Looking at numbers it's unlikely JF-17s alone can fill these numbers.

What are your opinions. Looks like JF-17 will receive further PAF order beyond the 50 JF-17 Block-3s but still in my opinion there is room in the fleet for another aircraft before the 5th Gen project Azm (rumored J-31). Because combined Mirage and F-7PG its 220 aircraft and even with a eventual 250 fleet size of JF-17 their is a balance of 70 jets. Otherwise PAF will need to shrink the overall fleet size.

5th Gen project Azm is slated for a aircraft to start replacing F-16s.


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## syed_yusuf

Everything in the list is ok except paf have around 50 .f-7pg and around 100 mirage all varients


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## ziaulislam

Shabi1 said:


> According to PAF active aircraft list on wikipedia
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_Pakistan_Air_Force_aircraft
> 
> F-16s = 76
> Mirage 3s = 75 (2025 retirement)
> Mirage 5s = 82 (2025 retirement)
> JF-17 = 100
> F-7PGs = 60
> 
> Total = 393
> 
> F-7Ps have been replaced by JF-17s with F-7PG variant remaining in service. But now instead of retiring Mirages PAF chose to raise a new squadron.
> 
> Mirages alone are 75+85 = 160. Looking at numbers it's unlikely JF-17s alone can fill these numbers.
> 
> What are your opinions. Looks like JF-17 will receive further PAF order beyond the 50 JF-17 Block-3s but still in my opinion there is room in the fleet for another aircraft before the 5th Gen project Azm (rumored J-31). Because combined Mirage and F-7PG its 220 aircraft and even with a eventual 250 fleet size of JF-17 their is a balance of 70 jets. Otherwise PAF will need to shrink the overall fleet size.
> 
> 5th Gen project Azm is slated for a aircraft to start replacing F-16s.


Original plan was to get more f16s and some j10s and reduce the size (not squardon give high serviceability of newer gen ac)

Now I guess it has to be thunders and or if possible USED or FMF f16s...as PAF doesn't think newer f16 are worth their price


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## fatman17

Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman who is supposed to be retired on 19th March requested government to grant him brief extension as he wants to take pride to lead 23rd March fly-past for last time in his career. He will be leading this Pakistan's Day parade & will retire on 26th March https://t.co/VEkNU6gPuC

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## fatman17

JF-17B prototype 01 has gained the serial number 17-601 in Pakistan, where it is currently conducting test flights at PAC Kamra Air Base. https://t.co/KCN3y8dWIZ

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## GriffinsRule

It should've been 18-601! Nice to see it up in Pakistan skies still


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## fatman17

GriffinsRule said:


> It should've been 18-601! Nice to see it up in Pakistan skies still


Manufacture date is 17, delivery date is 18.


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## fatman17

JF-17B Fierce Dragon/Thunder


This tandem-seat trainer version wasdeveloped at the request of Pakistani AF, which also pre-ordered the first prototype. JF-17B is believed to have been based on the JF-17Block II configuration with a IFR probe and an LED probe light installed on the starboard side of the forward fuselage. The aircraft features an enlarged and raised spine which creates additional space for flight instruments and fuel in order to compensate the space occupied by the rear cockpit. The aircraft also features a more swept vertical tail in order to reduce drag and to maintain the center of gravity. A new color LED landing light was installed above the front landing gear. A more powerful cockpit environmental control system has been installed as well to accommodate two pilots. More composite materials have been used in order to reduce the weight and to strengthen the structure. JF-17B is reportedly controlled by a new 3-axis digital FBW system replacing the old analog system. The aircraft is equipped with the same KLJ-7 PD fire-control radar and retain the same BVR as well as precision air-to-ground strike capabilities as JF-17 Block II. As the result JF-17B represents a very attractive option to foreign customers with limited budget and resources. Its length is 14.5m, height is 4.6m, TO weight is 9.4t, max external load is 4.6t. A model of the aircraft was first unveiled at the 2013 Paris Airshow by CATIC. The development started officially in 2014. The 01 prototype of JF-17B wasconstructed in December 2016 andconducted its first taxiing test on April 21, 2017. The JF-17B BC0001 prototype conducted its maiden flight on April 27, 2017. The JF-17B 02 prototype flew for the first time on December 7, 2017. Currently the 01 prototype (17-601) is conducting test flights at PAC.
- Last Updated 3/11/18

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## Maxpane

Waiting for block 3


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## fatman17

During the 2012 Zhuhai Airshow a new anti-radiation air-to-ground variant was unveiled as LD-10 with a range of 60km, which could equip JF-17 as well.

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## Tank131

PAF already operates the MAR-1 which has similar abilities. Not sure why they will also induct LD-10 rather than just offer it with the aircraft for buyers


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## Shabi1

Tank131 said:


> PAF already operates the MAR-1 which has similar abilities. Not sure why they will also induct LD-10 rather than just offer it with the aircraft for buyers



Although the JF-17 can fire the MAR-1, it primarily equips the Mirage, PAF already ordered 100 LD-10s with 50 delivered 2014-15 and range from some sources is 80km. Commonality with SD-10A justifies procuring it will simplify maintenance, only seeker is different. Also if the JF-17 Blk-3 gets the dual SD-10 racks, it can be assumed it can carry LD-10s on those racks as well or a SD-10/LD-10 combo.

Pakistan has been really effective in hiding procurements for as late as possible and its a good thing as we know there are always surprises available.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/pakistan-receives-ld-10-anti-radiation-missiles.445188/

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## Tps43

fatman17 said:


> Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman who is supposed to be retired on 19th March requested government to grant him brief extension as he wants to take pride to lead 23rd March fly-past for last time in his career. He will be leading this Pakistan's Day parade & will retire on 26th March https://t.co/VEkNU6gPuC
> View attachment 458744
> View attachment 458745


He is retiring on time


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## fatman17

Chengdu J-20 to become multi-role platform

13 MARCH, 2018 SOURCE:
FLIGHTGLOBAL.COM BY: GREG WALDRON SINGAPORE
Beijing will evolve the Chengdu J-20 fighter into roles well beyond aerial supremacy.

The aircraft’s primary mission for the time being is “making way for other aircraft in an air battle,” says Zhang Hao, who heads an air force flight test centre.

Zhang made the remarks in a story carried by Beijing’s official China Daily news organ.

The type will be developed into variants and will also allow for the opening of research into a “sixth generation fighter,” says Yang Wei, a deputy director of science and technology at AVIC.

"We are not complacent about what we have achieved,” Yang is quoted as saying. “We will develop the J-20 into a large family and keep strengthening its information-processing and intelligent capacities. At the same time, we will think about our next-generation combat plane to meet the nation's future requirements," Yang added that the J-20 is “the best fighter in China, so it would be used in the most crucial moments during a war.”

The 418-word story is surprisingly candid about the J-20, which has been shrouded in secrecy since it first appeared on social media in 2010. The type made its maiden flight in 2011. At the 2016 iteration of Airshow China in Zhuhai, two examples flew above the crowd at the show’s opening, but AVIC officials declined to discuss the aircraft. The China Daily story, however, says the type was “de-classified” in November 2016.

A recent, seperate two-line story from state news agency Xinhua proclaimed that the type had been commissioned into combat service, but gave few details.

Apart from a plan to develop more J-20 variants, the story reveals that the Peoples Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) will not allow exports of the type. It also revealed that the type has participated in beyond-visual-range (BVR) test engagements.

It does not reveal how many aircraft have been produced, how many will be operated, or the specific missions for which the J-20 will be developed.

Observers have suggested that a key mission for the type in the aerial supremacy role will be not just engaging enemy combat aircraft, but attacking critical support aircraft such as tankers and airborne early warning & control (AEW&C) aircraft. To this end China is developing the PL-21, a ramjet-powered missile guided by an active radar. Performance is believed to be comparable to the long-range MBDA Meteor.

A guide to possible missions is provided by Lockheed Martin’s mission list for the F-35. Apart from the air-to-air mission, it says the type is suitable for electronic attack, air-to-surface warfare, and intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance (ISR). The F-22, originally developed as a fighter, is also capable of electronic attack and can carry bombs.

The report claims that the J-20 is the third fifth generation fighter to enter service after the F-22 and F-35. In addition, it reiterated that AVIC’s FC-31 is aimed at the international market, but gave no other details about development plans for this aircraft.

"In the past, we had to follow others' paths when it came to designing military aircraft because our research and development capabilities were primitive in this regard, but now we have become capable of designing and making what we want to have," said Yang.

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## ghazi52

THE NEW PAKISTAN AIR FORCE HOSPITAL IN ISLAMABAD

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## Tank131

Shabi1 said:


> Although the JF-17 can fire the MAR-1, it primarily equips the Mirage, PAF already ordered 100 LD-10s with 50 delivered 2014-15 and range from some sources is 80km. Commonality with SD-10A justifies procuring it will simplify maintenance, only seeker is different. Also if the JF-17 Blk-3 gets the dual SD-10 racks, it can be assumed it can carry LD-10s on those racks as well or a SD-10/LD-10 combo.
> 
> Pakistan has been really effective in hiding procurements for as late as possible and its a good thing as we know there are always surprises available.
> 
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/pakistan-receives-ld-10-anti-radiation-missiles.445188/



Missiles are not reserved for one type or another. The notion that MAR-1 equips mirages and so LD-10 is necessary is not well thought through given mirages are being retired and replaced by JF-17. Now one could say LD-10 is a better weapon than MAR-1 but there is no evidence of this. The stated range of both is 60km, but some reports suggest longer ranges for both with 80km for LD-10 and 100km for MAR-1. Something as simple as the PAF wants multiple options or it was bought to appease China or show that PAF stands behind thr Chinese weapons packages for the sake of marketing the aircraft and weapons, or even they dont have enough MAR-1 in the inventory would all be reasonable answers, but not because it primarily equips Mirage. MAR-1 integration on the JF-17 has been completed. PAF should try to keep as diverse a group of suppliers for all weapons and aircraft as possible for those areas whdre it doesnt have indigenous solutions, obviously with China getting the lions share.

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## his5850

Tank131 said:


> Missiles are not reserved for one type or another. The notion that MAR-1 equips mirages and so LD-10 is necessary is not well thought through given mirages are being retired and replaced by JF-17. Now one could say LD-10 is a better weapon than MAR-1 but there is no evidence of this. The stated range of both is 60km, but some reports suggest longer ranges for both with 80km for LD-10 and 100km for MAR-1. Something as simple as the PAF wants multiple options or it was bought to appease China or show that PAF stands behind thr Chinese weapons packages for the sake of marketing the aircraft and weapons, or even they dont have enough MAR-1 in the inventory would all be reasonable answers, but not because it primarily equips Mirage. MAR-1 integration on the JF-17 has been completed. PAF should try to keep as diverse a group of suppliers for all weapons and aircraft as possible for those areas whdre it doesnt have indigenous solutions, obviously with China getting the lions share.



Point is very simple PAF looking for new weapons and they need new weapons as USA closing arms sales to Pakistan MAR-1 are also not going to be sold to Pakistan again so PAF is looking for new weapon system to replace it so where LD-10 comes in which has almost same range and and can be launch from JF-17


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## Falcon26

his5850 said:


> Point is very simple PAF looking for new weapons and they need new weapons as USA closing arms sales to Pakistan MAR-1 are also not going to be sold to Pakistan again so PAF is looking for new weapon system to replace it so where LD-10 comes in which has almost same range and and can be launch from JF-17



Who told you MAR-1 is not going to be sold to Pakistan?


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## his5850

Falcon26 said:


> Who told you MAR-1 is not going to be sold to Pakistan?



IS there any new weapon deal heaping with USA *answer is no*. so until relationship between Pakistan and USA get normal PAF don't want to just relies on just USA for weapons so that make scene to have other options and it also doesn't surprise me if AH-1Z viper deal also fall short. USA also did that before with F-16


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## HRK

his5850 said:


> IS there any new weapon deal heaping with USA *answer is no*. so until relationship between Pakistan and USA get normal PAF don't want to just relies on just USA for weapons so that make scene to have other options and it also doesn't surprise me if AH-1Z viper deal also fall short. USA also did that before with F-16


MAR-1 is not a product of USA origin

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## Beethoven

HRK said:


> MAR-1 is not a product of USA origin


I was about to respond but you beat me to it....let me add a little bit MAR-1 Anti radiation missile was bought from Brazil


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## his5850




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## his5850

HRK said:


> MAR-1 is not a product of USA origin



*sorry my bad* i didn't know MAR-1 was Brazilian i thought it was a different variant of AGM-84H/K SLAM-ER 

but my point is still valid that PAF don't want to depend on just one vendor and it's chines so may be there is a TOD involved in this missiles so it would be cheaper to make and buy


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## fatman17

PAF Flypast drills over Capital Islamabad.
1: One Il78 MRTT with two C130 Hercules
2: One ZDK03 with two Erieye AWACs
3: Two P3C Orion MPA https://t.co/SKDAgp5jDF

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## fatman17

Today In Aviation History

On March 14, 1969, The aerobatic team of black F-6's (call sign "The Rattlers"), perform over Sargodha. The team gave its last performance on 14 March 1969 when Marshal Grechko the Soviet Defence Minister visited Sargodha. https://t.co/60xZ52MuYi

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## ghazi52



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## Dazzler

fatman17 said:


> PAF Flypast drills over Capital Islamabad.
> 1: One Il78 MRTT with two C130 Hercules
> 2: One ZDK03 with two Erieye AWACs
> 3: Two P3C Orion MPA https://t.co/SKDAgp5jDF
> View attachment 459276
> View attachment 459278
> View attachment 459279



So good to see such assets roaming our skies!

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## Vigilant civilian

fatman17 said:


> Today In Aviation History
> 
> On March 14, 1969, The aerobatic team of black F-6's (call sign "The Rattlers"), perform over Sargodha. The team gave its last performance on 14 March 1969 when Marshal Grechko the Soviet Defence Minister visited Sargodha. https://t.co/60xZ52MuYi
> View attachment 459293


Nice, also do share the "Paybills"


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## Falcon26

his5850 said:


> IS there any new weapon deal heaping with USA *answer is no*. so until relationship between Pakistan and USA get normal PAF don't want to just relies on just USA for weapons so that make scene to have other options and it also doesn't surprise me if AH-1Z viper deal also fall short. USA also did that before with F-16



MAR-1 has nothing to do with the US. Better to research your claim before posting knee-jerk reaction & scripted messages. 

Thanks


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## mingle

HRK said:


> MAR-1 is not a product of USA origin


It's Brazilian product


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## Tank131

his5850 said:


> IS there any new weapon deal heaping with USA *answer is no*. so until relationship between Pakistan and USA get normal PAF don't want to just relies on just USA for weapons so that make scene to have other options and it also doesn't surprise me if AH-1Z viper deal also fall short. USA also did that before with F-16



MAR-1 is Brazilian and has no US components. You need to look into what you are talking about before authoritatively posting nonsense. As it relates to suppliers, Mectron, who makes the MAR-1 is the biggest weapons supplier for the JF-17 outside of China and Pakistan. Both the MAR-1 and the MAA-1A and in the future the MAA-1B (reportedly letter of intent was signed) Piranah IR-guided Short Range A2A Missiles.



his5850 said:


> *sorry my bad* i didn't know MAR-1 was Brazilian i thought it was a different variant of AGM-84H/K SLAM-ER
> 
> but my point is still valid that PAF don't want to depend on just one vendor and it's chines so may be there is a TOD involved in this missiles so it would be cheaper to make and buy



The PAF already operates AGM-88 HARM which would be the equivalent US missile, so not sure where you get off thinking that the MAR-1 or the LD-10 would be some new development for PAF. Usually the restriction on the export to Pakistan is on weapon types it does not already operate or possess (and PAF has both MAR-1, HARM and now LD-10) or big ticket items with political ramifications (F-16s, Frigates, OPVs, etc).

PAF needs multiple suppliers including US which provides among other things
Aim-120 AMRAAM (which it has more than 500)
AGM-88 HARM
AGM-154 JSOW
JDAM
AGM-84 Harpoon

Brazil: MAR-1, MAA-1A/B
South Africa: Raptor I/II (which became H2/H4), and in future possibly A-darter

And of course, China, which provides more weapons that we can count.

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## HRK

mingle said:


> It's Brazilian product


I know

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## AMG_12

Tank131 said:


> MAR-1 is Brazilian and has no US components. You need to look into what you are talking about before authoritatively posting nonsense. As it relates to suppliers, Mectron, who makes the MAR-1 is the biggest weapons supplier for the JF-17 outside of China and Pakistan. Both the MAR-1 and the MAA-1A and in the future the MAA-1B (reportedly letter of intent was signed) Piranah IR-guided Short Range A2A Missiles.
> 
> 
> 
> The PAF already operates AGM-88 HARM which would be the equivalent US missile, so not sure where you get off thinking that the MAR-1 or the LD-10 would be some new development for PAF. Usually the restriction on the export to Pakistan is on weapon types it does not already operate or possess (and PAF has both MAR-1, HARM and now LD-10) or big ticket items with political ramifications (F-16s, Frigates, OPVs, etc).
> 
> PAF needs multiple suppliers including US which provides among other things
> Aim-120 AMRAAM (which it has more than 500)
> AGM-88 HARM
> AGM-154 JSOW
> JDAM
> AGM-84 Harpoon
> 
> Brazil: MAR-1, MAA-1A/B
> South Africa: Raptor I/II (which became H2/H4), and in future possibly A-darter
> 
> And of course, China, which provides more weapons that we can count.


PAF don't operate AGM 88.


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## Windjammer

*Map with AGM-88 operators in blue*








*Current operators[edit]*





Australia: AGM-88E variant ordered; to be used on EA-18G Growlers.[18] On 28 April 2017, the Defense Security Cooperation Agency stated that Australia intended to purchase 70 AGM-88B and 40 AGM-88E missiles.[19]




Egypt




Germany[20]




Greece




Israel




Italy: AGM-88E variant.




Kuwait




Morocco: AGM-88B/C variant.[21]




Pakistan




Saudi Arabia




South Korea




Spain[20]




Taiwan: AGM-88B variant.




Turkey




United Arab Emirates




United States:
United States Air Force
United States Marine Corps[22]
United States Navy


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## ghazi52

....

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## GriffinsRule

@Windjammer
Wikipedia is not the best source for this. PAF does not have the AGM-88 HARM missile in its service and I am sure our F-16s have not been outfitted for the SEAD (Wild Weasel) role. The ones in USAF are designated as F-16CJ and are equipped with the HTS pod (HARM Targeting System). Some other countries do have HARM missiles, such as Egypt on its Block 40s,Turkey with Block 52s, etc... Any such sale of missiles/equipment to Pakistan would be in the open source had it ever happened.

Maybe you are thinking of AGM-65 Maverick?

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## MastanKhan

GriffinsRule said:


> @Windjammer
> Wikipedia is not the best source for this. PAF does not have the AGM-88 HARM missile in its service and I am sure our F-16s have not been outfitted for the SEAD (Wild Weasel) role. The ones in USAF are designated as F-16CJ and are equipped with the HTS pod (HARM Targeting System). Some other countries do have HARM missiles, such as Egypt on its Block 40s,Turkey with Block 52s, etc... Any such sale of missiles/equipment to Pakistan would be in the open source had it ever happened.
> 
> Maybe you are thinking of AGM-65 Maverick?



Hi,

That is what I was going to say---.

The US refused to sell pakistan thr anti radiation missile.


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## Tank131

Game.Invade said:


> PAF don't operate AGM 88.



Then i stabd corrected on the AGM88 but the remaining statement stands true none the less.


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## his5850

Tank131 said:


> MAR-1 is Brazilian and has no US components. You need to look into what you are talking about before authoritatively posting nonsense. As it relates to suppliers, Mectron, who makes the MAR-1 is the biggest weapons supplier for the JF-17 outside of China and Pakistan. Both the MAR-1 and the MAA-1A and in the future the MAA-1B (reportedly letter of intent was signed) Piranah IR-guided Short Range A2A Missiles.
> 
> 
> 
> The PAF already operates AGM-88 HARM which would be the equivalent US missile, so not sure where you get off thinking that the MAR-1 or the LD-10 would be some new development for PAF. Usually the restriction on the export to Pakistan is on weapon types it does not already operate or possess (and PAF has both MAR-1, HARM and now LD-10) or big ticket items with political ramifications (F-16s, Frigates, OPVs, etc).
> 
> PAF needs multiple suppliers including US which provides among other things
> Aim-120 AMRAAM (which it has more than 500)
> AGM-88 HARM
> AGM-154 JSOW
> JDAM
> AGM-84 Harpoon
> 
> Brazil: MAR-1, MAA-1A/B
> South Africa: Raptor I/II (which became H2/H4), and in future possibly A-darter
> 
> And of course, China, which provides more weapons that we can count.




you prove my point which ever MAR-1 or LD-10 PAF wants more then one vendor for there weapons need.LD-10 is the export variant of PL-12 may be just may be PAF can also get LD-10 in technology transfer that way PAF can improve and modify as there need. it's same as avionic not only PAF consider chines but also western avionic or south African and Brazilian for JF-17

and as for USA and F-16 is consonance they not going to come Pakistan not in near future PAF should really focus on block 3 and 4 of JF-17 and 5th generation plane.


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## fatman17

PAF Airpower Centre built as world class facility for multinational exercises: PAF

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## fatman17

Govt has designated Air Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan as new Chief of The Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force with effect from 19 March,2018.
Born on 23rd December, 1962 Mr Khan was commissioned in GD (P) Branch of Pakistan Air Force in December, 1983, currrently he is Deputy chief of PAF https://t.co/Z9Ebnvrr2L

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## fatman17



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## fatman17

JF17B. ACMs final flight

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## SherDil

15 March 2018 - Viper solo display over capital.

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## khanasifm

fatman17 said:


> JF17B. ACMs final flight
> View attachment 459898



This may have been farewell visit to the base and pac so why not fly it


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## syed zia Hassan

that very good problem solved of PAF its also credit to ACM Sohail Aman ..Godd for Pakistan Air Force. and Now Mirages and F7p will retired soon .. and PAF save expensive Human Life of Pilots


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## fatman17

FC31 PT2

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## fatman17

March 18 marks the 5th death anniversary of Air Commodore MM Alam, famously known as "The Little Dragon". Alam is said to have downed 9 IAF jets in 1965 (IAF flags on his jets), including the world record of shooting down 5, in less than 30 seconds.
Rest in eternal peace sir! https://t.co/4flszNKwkx

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## Maxpane

Rip sir . The best pilot in paf history

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## ghazi52

RIP







World record holder a true Hero the legendary Air Commodore (r) M.M. Alam - Sitara-i-Jurat (with Bar)

This Falcon downed five aircraft in less than a minute — the first four within 30 seconds — establishing a world record. He also excelled in gunnery competition, a skill that without a doubt contributed greatly to his becoming the first and the only jet ace in one mission. (R.I.P)

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## syed zia Hassan

Yes he was not only the Best Pilot of Pakistan Air force ..he was very kind and real gentleman in normal life I meet him ones he say new generation should read books for world knowledge History. without general knowledge a person not adjust any field he always in complex from others. you have good education is first but if lack of simple general knowledge you will be Zero in any Party. I always remember him and his words. I was in School in that time .in Karachi I met him at his sister house near Jama Millya Collage Malir City Karachi. then We look him no one known who is he . he tell us Indian Air Force pilots are fool in Dogfights I lock down one Indian Jet and fire and others quickly towards in front of me. He did not shows us any greatness of his past his world record even he did not believe that the world record in his hands. very simple person and what Great Person . May God rest his soul in peace.

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## fatman17

Changing of the guard

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## fatman17

JF17A and B

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## syed zia Hassan

fatman17 said:


> JF17A and B
> View attachment 460407


this photo show us how its Important for Pakistan













Jamal Ahmed Khan ACM 1986 At Rasilpur Academy 3rd April 1986.. second line left to second .Pilot Officer Syed Zia Hassan Shaheed

As well AS Jf-17 two seat badly need of PAF now its pictures give a relax and Hope

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## ziaulislam

__ https://www.facebook.com/





outgoing last speech
block 3 has been finalized recently, and has been above expectations and much more sophisticated
current fighter ratio with india is 1:1.75
plan is to keep the force at 400 fighter jet level

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## araz

ziaulislam said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> outgoing last speech
> block 3 has been finalized recently, and has been above expectations and much more sophisticated
> current fighter ratio with india is 1:1.75
> plan is to keep the force at 400 fighter jet level


This Means we will go upto 250 JFTS.

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## SQ8

araz said:


> This Means we will go upto 250 JFTS.


It was always on budget. So if tomorrow the economy is wrecked, it goes back to 150+75+50 equation

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## Dazzler

Oscar said:


> It was always on budget. So if tomorrow the economy is wrecked, it goes back to 150+75+50 equation



The economy is wrecked as of today, as IMF has estimated. Contingency plans to be put into motion.

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## SQ8

Dazzler said:


> The economy is wrecked as of today, as IMF has estimated. Contingency plans to be put into motion.


Hence- 150 JF, 70 F-16 and 50 pg
That is the minimum


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## araz

Oscar said:


> Hence- 150 JF, 70 F-16 and 50 pg
> That is the minimum


I think the begging bowl will be out again. Which means we will be doing our masters' bidding again. However is the master going to be as benevolent as to put some crumbs for the dogs of this nation to eat this time. The people as always will struggle on..
A


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## SQ8

araz said:


> I think the begging bowl will be out again. Which means we will be doing our masters' bidding again. However is the master going to be as benevolent as to put some crumbs for the dogs of this nation to eat this time. The people as always will struggle on..
> A


I doubt it. It is time to accept the pill that Pakistan has lost on all fronts; internal and external. 
I would not be surprised if we give up the nuclear weapons in return for more loans and assistance. The sleeping nation has no idea what fecal matter it has sleepwalked into.

But then we deserve it.

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## araz

Oscar said:


> I doubt it. It is time to accept the pill that Pakistan has lost on all fronts; internal and external.
> I would not be surprised if we give up the nuclear weapons in return for more loans and assistance. The sleeping nation has no idea what fecal matter it has sleepwalked into.
> 
> But then we deserve it.


I guess if they give up the Nukes they have no bargaining chip left. If you have nothing left no one will look at you to even pour a bucket of shit on your head. They might sell it for a little money and get some profit.
Anyways I feel sorry for my beautiful Pakland and the way it has been pillaged.
A

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## SQ8

araz said:


> I guess if they give up the Nukes they have no bargaining chip left. If you have nothing left no one will look at you to even pour a bucket of shit on your head. They might sell it for a little money and get some profit.
> Anyways I feel sorry for my beautiful Pakland and the way it has been pillaged.
> A


Pakistan is not a piece of land, it’s the people; and I don’t feel sorry for them sadly.

Almost apathy.
Either way, the force is still enough to prevent conflict since the calculation is correct that our neighbor cares more and more about economic aspirations than territorial bluster.

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## Army research

Oscar said:


> Pakistan is not a piece of land, it’s the people; and I don’t feel sorry for them sadly.
> 
> Almost apathy.
> Either way, the force is still enough to prevent conflict since the calculation is correct that our neighbor cares more and more about economic aspirations than territorial bluster.


Is there any possibility for being saved in the short term less a revolution ?


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## PDF

Oscar said:


> I would not be surprised if we give up the nuclear weapons in return for more loans and assistance.


If worst comes, rather than giving up the nukes, we might sell them to '_friendly'_ countries or share our knowledge about nuclear weapons with the nations who have interest in it.
But for now, I do see such desperation appearing. We still can give the US some relief about Afghanistan and carefully manipulating their public view though it won't be easy and we will still be surviving under harsh conditions&pressures. In this way, we might be able to stall any near drastic measure forced upon Pakistan...But we need to get our sh** together if we want to survive in the long term. 
With the current state of our politicians and military folks, I don't see any improvement for the long term. Perhaps, , our country needs to witness a regional conflict involving us in order to realize ourselves and move forward.


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## SQ8

Army research said:


> Is there any possibility for being saved in the short term less a revolution ?


Can you change just your entire family members?
Or friends?
Just 10 people?
That is our barrier of entry.

I know I can change 10 people, will they change 10 more?
That is the process that is needed.

The highest resistance will be older people or the illiterate.

Either way, we dither.
The chief is alluding to another aspect that exists in the organizations that is infighting and corruption in case someone caught that hint.


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## Army research

Oscar said:


> Can you change just your entire family members?
> Or friends?
> Just 10 people?
> That is our barrier of entry.
> 
> I know I can change 10 people, will they change 10 more?
> That is the process that is needed.
> 
> The highest resistance will be older people or the illiterate.
> 
> Either way, we dither.
> The chief is alluding to another aspect that exists in the organizations that is infighting and corruption in case someone caught that hint.


The most difficult are the ' educated ' illiterates whose ego is unbreachable. Only If they suffer they will learn.

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## ziaulislam

Dazzler said:


> The economy is wrecked as of today, as IMF has estimated. Contingency plans to be put into motion.


IMF is concerned about two major things
short term risk for current account deficit
medium term risk for non privatizing loss making entities and lack of reforms in power sector

otherwise things are better though not best of course 
such huge investment by Chinese sector has helped nobody expected that to happen


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## syed_yusuf

ziaulislam said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> outgoing last speech
> block 3 has been finalized recently, and has been above expectations and much more sophisticated
> current fighter ratio with india is 1:1.75
> plan is to keep the force at 400 fighter jet level


India does not have 700 fighters dies it ?

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## ziaulislam

likley hood of going to IMF is alot, i would like to avoid it becasue it will affect growth but as the same time its IMF that forces reforms which govt for some unknown reason doesnt do ...
so goignt o IMF might be better for reforms but will cut growth in short term due to austerity measures



syed_yusuf said:


> India does not have 700 fighters dies it ?


250su30+120mig29/mirage+200 mig 21bison/27+100 jauguers=~ 700/32 suardons

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Army research said:


> Is there any possibility for being saved in the short term less a revolution ?


It's not even revolution. It's more of a situation of the general society acknowledging things are hopelessly unsustainable and then working - as a collective - towards real and comprehensive change. There's trying to convince people, sure, but convincing is actually contingent on having people *listen* ... we don't have a lot of that, sadly (just see the SCAR thread, lol).

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## Path-Finder

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It's not even revolution. It's more of a situation of the general society acknowledging things are hopelessly unsustainable and then working - as a collective - towards real and comprehensive change. There's trying to convince people, sure, but convincing is actually contingent on having people *listen* ... we don't have a lot of that, sadly (just see the SCAR thread, lol).


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## ziaulislam

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It's not even revolution. It's more of a situation of the general society acknowledging things are hopelessly unsustainable and then working - as a collective - towards real and comprehensive change. There's trying to convince people, sure, but convincing is actually contingent on having people *listen* ... we don't have a lot of that, sadly (just see the SCAR thread, lol).


at times i think politicians are better than general public, they some time try to make right decision but back off because they are not hugely popular..lol

we claim them to be corrupt but proportion of corruption done by a clerk is far more than proportion of corruption done by PM (even if its in billions!)

on economy its still atleast moving in the right direction though slower than whats needed

the hope is the honest people who have kept it together

---------
on topic, i am more hopeful for major upgrades on thunder block 3 as it seems PAF leadership is pretty impressed with the plateform
budget would be an issue, even though PAF is not going for any outside big ticket deal


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## fatman17

Pakistani-Chinese JF-17 Fighter Jet’s Block III Design Finalized

Our Bureau12:40 PM, March 20, 2018

The Pakistan-Chinese JF-17 ‘Thunder’ fighter aircraft has completed its Block-III design; an upgrade intended to match latest fourth-generation military jets such as the F-16V and Saab Gripen NG.

The outgoing Chief of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF), Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman announced on Monday that the design of the JF-17 Block-III had been finalized after a period of “two-and-a-half years,” Associated Press of Pakistan reported.

The Block-III version of the single-seat aircraft is to be equipped with an active electronically-scanned array radar, upgraded avionics suite, new electronic warfare and countermeasures system besides a helmet-mounted display and sight. Newly developed air-to-air missiles and a targeting pod are also to be added.

Major R & D work is being undertaken by the Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group, a wing of the Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) while Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) is largely in charge of serial manufacturing. Various reports have said that the PAF would be the launch customer for the JF-17 Block III with some 50 aircraft to be delivered in the 2020-2022 timeframe.

The Block III version would boost the exports prospects of the JF-17 in countries that cannot afford expensive Western origin fighter aircraft such as the F-16V. Already, Myanmar is a customer for the Block II aircraft having signed a $560 million in July 2015 for 16 jets.

The JF-17 costs substantially less compared to fourth-generation Western fighter jets. Taking the Myanmar deal is a benchmark, the price of the Block II jets is around $32 million apiece which makes it a third cheaper than the F-16.


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## fatman17

ACM #SohailAman, the man who put PAF in right direction. Initiated much needed indigenous process in shape of #Project_Azm, successfully continued #Jf17 project despite of economic & technical challenges, developed relations with allied forces and net-centricity with own forces https://t.co/TBCjLfcoFq

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## araz

Army research said:


> The most difficult are the ' educated ' illiterates whose ego is unbreachable. Only If they suffer they will learn.


Unfortunately they will not suffer as most of them will escape to walayat at the slightest of signs of trouble. Ahhh the problem is the only thing Pak land seems to be good for is pillaging.
A


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## Army research

araz said:


> Unfortunately they will not suffer as most of them will escape to walayat at the slightest of signs of trouble. Ahhh the problem is the only thing Pak land seems to be good for is pillaging.
> A


I try to convince youngsters that their are loans on are shoulders , sooner or later the cherished west will close their doors, But these jahils would rather make fun of people like me just to good look , a typical vedera attitude. Only Allah can save this nation.

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## araz

Army research said:


> I try to convince youngsters that their are loans on are shoulders , sooner or later the cherished west will close their doors, But these jahils would rather make fun of people like me just to good look , a typical vedera attitude. Only Allah can save this nation.


Allah has never saved a nation unless the nayion has woken up and done something about its own plight. Look at the Quran. Look at Surah Maryam, when she is delivering Essa AS Allah tells her to shake the date tree. Much has been written about the miracle of dates appearing out of no where on the tree, but even if you discount that essentially Allah has asked her to make some effort. Similarly the story of Hajera and Ismail AS. Allah could have given her water and sustenance without her running 7 times between Safa and Marwa and the Baby crying and rubbing/shifting the sand with its feet. And yet we do not ponder.
By the one who holds my life in his hands if things came easy then they whould have come easy to our Prophet SAW who was the most beloved of Allah yet all of his life is a struggle and yet we sit idly and pontificating.
A

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## fatman17

Exclusive catch.
PAF Jf17 spotted with #Aselpod ATP. Integration of Aselpod has granted advance recon and targeting capabilities to Jf17 in all weather day/night conditions. https://t.co/OhTnqGUijN

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## Stealth

My Shots of Pakistan Ex Airforce Chief Flypast Maneuvers & His farewell escorting F16s..

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## SQ8

fatman17 said:


> Exclusive catch.
> PAF Jf17 spotted with #Aselpod ATP. Integration of Aselpod has granted advance recon and targeting capabilities to Jf17 in all weather day/night conditions. https://t.co/OhTnqGUijN
> View attachment 460788
> View attachment 460789


Cant say it’s exclusive, it was in the video released by ISPR so its exclusvity is pretty suspect.

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## BHarwana



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## fatman17

Oscar said:


> Cant say it’s exclusive, it was in the video released by ISPR so its exclusvity is pretty suspect.


Whatever makes you happy mate


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## fatman17

"In the last two years, the PAF carried out 1,327 aerial attacks that killed many militants and destroyed their safe havens and infrastructure of terrorism," Centre for Research and Security Studies (CRSS) Executive Director Imtiaz Gul told Pakistan Forward.
#PAFTheGuardiansOfSky https://t.co/WFDVvKac3S

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## araz

fatman17 said:


> "In the last two years, the PAF carried out 1,327 aerial attacks that killed many militants and destroyed their safe havens and infrastructure of terrorism," Centre for Research and Security Studies (CRSS) Executive Director Imtiaz Gul told Pakistan Forward.
> #PAFTheGuardiansOfSky https://t.co/WFDVvKac3S
> View attachment 460900


The attacks on terrorist hideouts always show F16s. Is this an on going pitch for more or just opd habits dying hard?
A

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## GriffinsRule

Only F-16s had the precision attack capability so perhaps closer to the truth

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## khanasifm

GriffinsRule said:


> Only F-16s had the precision attack capability so perhaps closer to the truth



Self designation yes but precision attack, mirages and even f-7 can carry weapon and launch but needs designation from ground or by another carrier 

Turks have 250 plus f-16 and total of about 60-80 pods including sniper and aselpod and older American 

So expect for 250 jf-17 about 1 in 3 say ?? Pods ~80 

Guessing


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## GriffinsRule

Yes, but that still means F-16 are needed for basically every precision strike mission.


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## khanasifm

GriffinsRule said:


> Yes, but that still means F-16 are needed for basically every precision strike mission.



Mirages have used ground based lasing or airbase lasing via c-130 now even falco can lase

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## fatman17

23rd March Flypast

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## ghazi52

The newly appointed Chief of the Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan made first visit to Naval Headquarters after assumption of Command and met Chief of the Naval Staff, Admiral Zafar Mahmood Abbasi.

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## Readerdefence

Hi anybody having jf17 flypast with Aselpod if not why the haven’t have this on the jf17 
With flypast 
Thank you


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## Hexciter

Air force pilot Lt. Col. Azman Halil salutes with graywolf symbol. Thank you Halil, we are saluting you also.

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## mingle

Hexciter said:


> Air force pilot Lt. Col. Azman Halil salutes with graywolf symbol. Thank you Halil, we are saluting you also.
> View attachment 461532


He is probably wing commander.


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## Talon

Hexciter said:


> Air force pilot Lt. Col. Azman Halil salutes with graywolf symbol. Thank you Halil, we are saluting you also.
> View attachment 461532


Group Captain Azman *Khalil*


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## Windjammer

Hexciter said:


> Air force pilot Lt. Col. Azman Halil salutes with graywolf symbol. Thank you Halil, we are saluting you also.
> View attachment 461532

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## salman-1

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 461544


Mashah Allah. Allah hamarey mujahidun ko nazer sey bachaye


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## Raider 21

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 461544







Back when he was a Squadron Leader (Major) and sent to USA on deputation, getting his training done on F-16 C/Ds at Tuscon, AZ with the 162nd Fighter Wing.

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## fatman17

MiG 19, what a classic

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## syed zia Hassan

fatman17 said:


> MiG 19, what a classic
> View attachment 461803


yes real Russian( U.S.S R) Mig-19 .PAF used this machine for very long time F-6



Windjammer said:


> View attachment 461544


 the Pilot he Save F-16 Air Craft was in operations and during operation and then due to very bad technical condition he fly and land it without any major damage his high ability and brave fighter Pilot I salute you


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## fatman17

At Gulf Shield KSA

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## Maxpane

*Air Marshal Arshad Malik appointed as vice chief of PAF*

He was posted to China for two years to oversee and coordinate the development and manufacturing of JF-17 aircraft
Pakistan
by Muhammad Irfan | Published on March 26, 2018 (Edited March 26, 2018)




Facebook
Twitter
Reddit
ISLAMABAD – Air Marshal Arshad Malik has been appointed as Vice Chief of Pakistan Air Force (PAF). According to PAF Spokesperson, Air Marshal Arshad Malik was born on 12 July 1962 in Faisalabad.

He joined PAF in 1978 with 76th GDP course and was commissioned as a fighter pilot in December 1983.

During his illustrious career, he has commanded a Fighter Squadron, a Flying Wing, an Operational Air Base and a Regional Air Command. He was posted to China for two years to oversee and coordinate the development and manufacturing of JF-17 aircraft

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## araz

Hexciter said:


> Air force pilot Lt. Col. Azman Halil salutes with graywolf symbol. Thank you Halil, we are saluting you also.
> View attachment 461532


This is a known illuminati sign of the devil. It should really not be copied by any muslim. It is sad that we copy others without knowing the significance.
A


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## HRK

araz said:


> This is a known illuminati sign of the devil. It should really not be copied by any muslim. It is sad that we copy others without knowing the significance.
> A


its a normal hand sign/signals by Pilots to communicate with ground staff/Aircraft marshaller its a routine thing
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paf-pilot-flying-in-f-15-eagle.524074/reply?quote=9968743

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## araz

HRK said:


> its a normal hand sign/signals by Pilots to communicate with ground staff/Aircraft marshaller its a routine thing
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paf-pilot-flying-in-f-15-eagle.524074/reply?quote=9968743


When something depicts something wrong it should be changed. Sign language must have other alternatives. Do we have to follow what is considered wrong. Are all the people displaying this sign also from the AF? The media is full of these devil worshippers who display the sign. Let us not follow them but formulate our own signs. This is all I am saying.
A

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## NeonNinja



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## chaklala2

love it



NeonNinja said:


>


luv it


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## syed_yusuf

Where did they arrive

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## fatman17

Air Marshal Arshad Malik as Vice Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force. Air Marshal Arshad Malik was born on 12 July, 1962 at Faisalabad. He joined PAF College Sargodha in 1978 with 76th GD (P) course and was commissioned as a fighter pilot in December, 1983. https://t.co/sT0sd5Odgg


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## MastanKhan

Maxpane said:


> *Air Marshal Arshad Malik appointed as vice chief of PAF*
> 
> He was posted to China for two years to oversee and coordinate the development and manufacturing of JF-17 aircraft
> Pakistan
> by Muhammad Irfan | Published on March 26, 2018 (Edited March 26, 2018)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Facebook
> Twitter
> Reddit
> ISLAMABAD – Air Marshal Arshad Malik has been appointed as Vice Chief of Pakistan Air Force (PAF). According to PAF Spokesperson, Air Marshal Arshad Malik was born on 12 July 1962 in Faisalabad.
> 
> He joined PAF in 1978 with 76th GDP course and was commissioned as a fighter pilot in December 1983.
> 
> During his illustrious career, he has commanded a Fighter Squadron, a Flying Wing, an Operational Air Base and a Regional Air Command. He was posted to China for two years to oversee and coordinate the development and manufacturing of JF-17 aircraft


Hi,

He looks familiar---was he the one at the Paris air show display---.


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## Falcon26

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> He looks familiar---was he the one at the Paris air show display---.



Yes. Known for marketing the JF-17 yo prospective clients

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## araz

fatman17 said:


> Air Marshal Arshad Malik as Vice Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force. Air Marshal Arshad Malik was born on 12 July, 1962 at Faisalabad. He joined PAF College Sargodha in 1978 with 76th GD (P) course and was commissioned as a fighter pilot in December, 1983. https://t.co/sT0sd5Odgg
> View attachment 461908


Made a good job of sales of mashaq to various countries. Lets hope he carries on in the same enthusiastic vane.
A

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## fatman17

JF-17 TO GET CHINESE-DEVELOPED AESA RADAR
JF-17 to get Chinese-developed AESA radar

28 MARCH, 2018 SOURCE: FLIGHTGLOBAL.COM BY: GREG WALDRON SINGAPORE
The Chengdu/Pakistan Aernautical Complex JF-17 fighter is to get an active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, which is expected to boost its export prospects.

The KLJ-7A AESA radar developed by the Nanjing Research Institutie of Electronics Technology (NRIET) will be installed on the single-engined type, which is operated by the Pakistan air force, says NRIET's head Hu Mingchun in a China Daily report.

A mockup of the KLJ-7A was displayed by China Electronics Technology Group at the Zhuhai air show in 2016.

"Our product will tremendously extend the fighter jet's detection range, giving it a much longer sight that will help it detect the enemy's aircraft before they do, and this is very important because in real combat if you see first, you fire first," says Hu.

"The radar is capable of tracking dozens of targets and engaging several of them simultaneously. It also has a good jamming-resistant capacity that keeps the plane away from enemy's electronic interference."

Replacing the aircraft's mechnically-scanned KLJ-7 radar with an AESA set is a key element in the JF-17's Block III configuration, which also features an updated cockpit and better avionics. The radar could also be used to upgrade in-service aircraft in the Block I and II configuration.

Adding AESA is expected to boost the type's export prospects. Although Pakistan and China's export firm CATIC have actively promoted the JF-17 on the international market for years, success has been limited.

At the Paris air show in June 2015, a Pakistani air force official told FlightGlobal that a "contract had been signed" with an Asian country. The Asian country has yet to be officially named, but is believed to be Myanmar. Images on Chinese social media have shown a JF-17 in Myanmar air force markings.

Nigeria's proposed 2018 budget document confirmed that the African nation will obtain JF-17s, with N13.1 billion ($36 million) will be earmarked as partial payment for three of the fighter jets. The payment will also cover support equipment and spares.

In the China Daily story, Hu called on Beijing to increase its support for Chinese arms makers on the international market. He adds that a major focus of the NRIET has been developing radar systems that can detect stealth aircraft, such as the Lockheed Martin F-22.

Powered by the Klimov RD-93 engine, the JF-17 is pitched as a low-cost fighter for developing world air forces. Following feedback from prospective customers, a two seat version was developed, which is now undergoing testing.

Related Content
Myanmar signs order for six Su-30s
Nigeria to acquire three JF-17 fighters
PARIS: China promotes unmanned airpower
Twin-seat JF-17B takes maiden flight
ANALYSIS: China's mixed signals on military aircraft exports

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## fatman17

C4iSR: Air

China to upgrade radar of Pakistan’s JF-17 fighter aircraft

Gabriel Dominguez, London - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

28 March 2018

China will upgrade Pakistan Air Force JF-17 Thunder multirole combat aircraft with the KLJ-7A active electronically scanned-array (AESA) radar, according to a 28 March report by the China Daily newspaper.

Hu Mingchun, head of the Nanjing Research Institute of Electronics Technology (NRIET) in Jiangsu province, was quoted by the state-owned paper as saying that the newest version of the KLJ-7 fire-control radar (FCR) will substantially improve the combat capabilities of the aircraft.

“Our product will tremendously extend the fighter jet’s detection range, giving it a much longer sight that will help it detect the enemy’s aircraft before they do; and this is very important, because in real combat if you see first, you fire first,” he said.


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## Maxpane

Waiting for the block 3


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## fatman17

Identify the 5 remaining aircraft after the F104 Starfighter


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## Ultima Thule

fatman17 said:


> Identify the 5 remaining aircraft after the F104 Starfighter
> View attachment 462317


voddo, delta dagger, delta dart, super saber and thunder-chief i think

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## fatman17

Air Recognition
China to upgrade Pakistan JF-17 with KLJ-7A AESA radar

March 2018 news aviation air force industry

POSTED ON THURSDAY, 29 MARCH 2018 10:17

China will upgrade Pakistan Air Force JF-17 fighter jets with a world-class radar system that will substantially improve the combat capability of the aircraft, a top Chinese radar researcher said. Hu Mingchun, head of the Nanjing Research Institute of Electronics Technology in Jiangsu province, said the KLJ-7A active phased array radar will give the JF-17 many advantages in an aerial combat.

China to upgrade Pakistan JF 17 with KLJ 7A AESA radar 001A PAF JF-17 Thunder fighter jetA PAF JF-17 Thunder fighter jet
(Credit: Shimin Gu)

China will upgrade Pakistan Air Force JF-17 fighter jets with a world-class radar system that will substantially improve the combat capability of the aircraft, a top Chinese radar researcher said. Hu Mingchun, head of the Nanjing Research Institute of Electronics Technology in Jiangsu province, said the KLJ-7A active phased array radar will give the JF-17 many advantages in an aerial combat.

"Our product will tremendously extend the fighter jet's detection range, giving it a much longer sight that will help it detect the enemy's aircraft before they do, and this is very important because in real combat if you see first, you fire first," he said. "The radar is capable of tracking dozens of targets and engaging several of them simultaneously. It also has a good jamming-resistant capacity that keeps the plane away from enemy's electronic interference."

The KLJ-7A radar can be mounted on light-or medium-weight fighter jets. It is one of the best of its kind in the world in terms of technology and capability, Hu said.

Nanjing Research Institute of Electronics Technology, part of the State-owned defense giant China Electronics Technology Group Corp, is the country's largest and strongest developer of military radar. Its products have been sold to more than 20 nations in Africa and Asia.
The JF-17, known as the FC-1 in China, is a lightweight, multirole fighter jet codeveloped by Aviation Industry Corp of China and Pakistan Aeronautical Complex.

The plane is widely deployed by the Pakistan Air Force and some reportedly have been purchased by the Myanmar Air Force.
Meanwhile China and Pakistan have spared no effort to find new buyers.

Wu Peixin, an aviation industry analyst in Beijing, said the upgrade with a type of cutting-edge radar will undoubtedly enhance the JF-17/FC-1's appeal to potential buyers from developing nations.

"The KLJ-7A will enable JF-17 and its variants to have stronger fighting capability at a reasonable cost, allowing the aircraft to compete with or confront expensive Western or Russian jets," he said.

Hu suggested that China should encourage and give more support to the efforts of Chinese arms makers to export because by doing so the country's defense technologies and products will have more opportunities to display their advantages to buyers and to verify designs and capabilities for further improvements.

The research institute has been promoting a series of new-generation radar capable of detecting stealth aircraft such as the US F-22 Raptor.

These new radar types, such as the YLC-8B, SLC-7 and SLC-12, integrate the traditional detection method of mechanical scanning with two-dimensional active phased array technology, so they are able to handle not only stealth fighter jets but also unmanned aircraft, and even cruise or ballistic missiles, according to the institute.
All of them can be mounted on vehicles, it said.

Hu said the institute not only sells its radar but also provides air-defense solution packages to clients and helps them build their own research and development capabilities.

"In the past, our radar was backward so we had to follow others' rules in both the market and the battlefield. Now we have begun to turn into a leading player in this sphere. Therefore, we are becoming a rule maker and make others follow our rules," Hu said.

(Source: China Daily)










Copyright [emoji767] 2018 Air Recognition | Webdesign by Zzam


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## fatman17

pakistanipower said:


> voddo, delta dagger, delta dart, super saber and thunder-chief i think


Yep, known as the Century fighters. F100 to F105

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## ghazi52

*Graduation ceremony of PAF’s 120th Combat Support Course held*











ISLAMABAD: The graduation ceremony of 120th Combat Support Course, 40th BLPC Course and commissioning of *10 cadets of Islamic Republic of Iran Air Force (IRIAF) *was held at PAF Academy, Asghar Khan on Thursday.

Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force was the chief guest of the ceremony. Mr Mehdi Honardoost, Iranian Ambassador to Pakistan was also present at the occasion.

Speaking on the occasion, Air Chief said “Let there be no doubt in the minds of our adversaries that PAF is fully committed to defend sovereignty of the country with utmost might and with all possible means.”








Addressing the parade, Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan said, “Certainly, your training at PAF Academy Asghar Khan has equipped you with ample knowledge in your respective professions. As officers, you will be required to establish your credentials by grooming yourselves at both professional as well as personal levels.”

He further said, “PAF has taken a number of initiatives to reinforce its operational preparedness. By the grace of Allah Almighty and the commitment of our personnel, we have successfully achieved various strategic milestones. I am glad to share that our efforts towards indigenization and self-reliance have been highly rewarding; the world-wide acclaim received by JF-17 is a manifestation of our indigenous defence production capabilities.”

He added “I strongly believe that PAF is fully capable to measure up to the aspirations of the people of Pakistan. With the entire Pakistani nation at our back, the resounding success of Air Power employment in synergy with sister services helped in eradicating the menace of terrorism and restoration of peace to the country and the region at large. This has made the whole nation proud of its Armed Forces and especially PAF.”

“I would like to reiterate that we are a peace-loving nation and want to live in peace with dignity and our desire for peaceful co-existence is for regional stability”.

A total of 47 cadets including 09 Lady Cadets were graduated at the occasion. The Chief Guest awarded branch insignia and trophies to the distinction holders.

Trophy for Best Performance in 120th Combat Support Course was awarded to Aviation Cadet Sidra Abdullah, while Aviation Cadet Sajid Mahmood received trophy for Overall Best Performance in 40th BLPC Course.

The ceremony was followed by a thrilling performance by “Eaglets”- the Para Motor Glider team of the Academy.

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## hassan1



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## litman

sorry to say but none of them look like cadets.


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## syed_yusuf

What is combat support course is?


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## Maxpane

1 Apr, 2018
[/paste:font]







*SHARES*







ISLAMABAD: The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has conveyed to the Islamabad High Court (IHC) that the mysterious death of Group Captain Rizwan Attique was suicide.

In response to a petition filed by Attique’s widow, Tanzeela Khan, PAF’s director legal service Sohail Ahmed stated that the woman’s husband had committed suicide as he feared the consequences of an inquiry into his alleged corruption.

*READ MORE: PAF, PN civilian employees arrested in gang of criminals in Karachi*
Giving a detailed background of the events before the death of the officer, the written reply stated: “During his service, the petitioner’s husband became involved in embezzlement, misappropriation, malpractices and collusion with various civilian contractors against service interest. Consequently, a Board of Inquiry was ordered at the Air Headquarters, Islamabad, on July 5, 2017 to probe into his alleged illegal activities.

Written reply alleges that widow’s petition is aimed at maligning the force

*READ MORE: PAF, Pak Army helicopters and jawans called in to extinguish Margala Hills fire*
“The deceased officer was provided VIP room at Officers Mess, Islamabad, to face the Board of Inquiry proceedings; the deceased officer was not taken into Air Force custody. However, he was asked to remain present on the premises of Officers Mess, Islamabad, during the Board of Inquiry proceedings.”

The reply further states: “The deceased officer committed suicide as a remorse for his involvement in misappropriation and as a fear for loss of image in society, which he had built for last many years.”

*READ MORE: New PAF Chief has a message for enemy*
It said: “Group Captain Rizwan committed suicide. On July 10, 2017 he was found hanging from a window grille using bedsheet in his room at the Officers Mess, Islamabad.

“He was immediately shifted to PAF Hospital where he was declared as ‘brought dead’. Later, his body was shifted to Pakistan Institute of Medical Sciences (Pims) for autopsy.”

The reply claimed that Pims confirmed that the officer had committed a suicide. The reply alleged that the petitioner filed the petition only to malign the PAF .

Ms Khan was seeking transparent and impartial inquiry into the death of her husband.


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## araz

Maxpane said:


> 1 Apr, 2018
> [/paste:font]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *SHARES*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ISLAMABAD: The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has conveyed to the Islamabad High Court (IHC) that the mysterious death of Group Captain Rizwan Attique was suicide.
> 
> In response to a petition filed by Attique’s widow, Tanzeela Khan, PAF’s director legal service Sohail Ahmed stated that the woman’s husband had committed suicide as he feared the consequences of an inquiry into his alleged corruption.
> 
> *READ MORE: PAF, PN civilian employees arrested in gang of criminals in Karachi*
> Giving a detailed background of the events before the death of the officer, the written reply stated: “During his service, the petitioner’s husband became involved in embezzlement, misappropriation, malpractices and collusion with various civilian contractors against service interest. Consequently, a Board of Inquiry was ordered at the Air Headquarters, Islamabad, on July 5, 2017 to probe into his alleged illegal activities.
> 
> Written reply alleges that widow’s petition is aimed at maligning the force
> 
> *READ MORE: PAF, Pak Army helicopters and jawans called in to extinguish Margala Hills fire*
> “The deceased officer was provided VIP room at Officers Mess, Islamabad, to face the Board of Inquiry proceedings; the deceased officer was not taken into Air Force custody. However, he was asked to remain present on the premises of Officers Mess, Islamabad, during the Board of Inquiry proceedings.”
> 
> The reply further states: “The deceased officer committed suicide as a remorse for his involvement in misappropriation and as a fear for loss of image in society, which he had built for last many years.”
> 
> *READ MORE: New PAF Chief has a message for enemy*
> It said: “Group Captain Rizwan committed suicide. On July 10, 2017 he was found hanging from a window grille using bedsheet in his room at the Officers Mess, Islamabad.
> 
> “He was immediately shifted to PAF Hospital where he was declared as ‘brought dead’. Later, his body was shifted to Pakistan Institute of Medical Sciences (Pims) for autopsy.”
> 
> The reply claimed that Pims confirmed that the officer had committed a suicide. The reply alleged that the petitioner filed the petition only to malign the PAF .
> 
> Ms Khan was seeking transparent and impartial inquiry into the death of her husband.


Good. Let him pay in this world and the other world. Subhanalpah we dont understand what we will face after our deaths. If he had shown remorse and suffered the punishment perhaps Allah would have forgiven him.
A

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## fatman17



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## salman-1

We'll that Su-25SM could be a good replacement for our Mirage aircrafts as it's a dedicated attack aircraft and with good survivability. There's a lot of hard points and if could be air to air-refuelled then could become a strategic asset. I think with proper modification it might also be able to carry our Raad missiles as well .




It has ample space to load big weapons like Raad

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## Maxpane

*Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar visits HQ Air Defence Command*
April 06, 2018
|
By GEO NEWS
|
Pakistan









ISLAMABAD: Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan said on Friday that concerted efforts should be taken to keep the Pakistan Air Force in the highest state of operational readiness, according to an official press release.

The Air Chief Marshal and the Chief of the Air Staff paid a visit to Headquarters Air Defence Command today.

The press statement said that upon arrival, the new air chief was received by Air Vice Marshal Muhammad Zahoor Faisal, Air Officer Commanding and Air Defence Command.

During his visit, the command and control centre of Air Defence Command, the air chief witnessed the ongoing operations carried out by the air defenders of the country.

“The visit was undertaken with a purpose to assess the operational readiness of the various installations of the Air Defence Command of Pakistan Air Force,” said the press statement.

The air chief interacted with the combat crew and appreciated their level of motivation in performing the duty of defending the aerial frontiers round the clock.


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## ghazi52

The Unsung Heroes

Flight Lieutenant M. Yunus who shot down IAF Canberra on April 10, 1959. PAF's No. 15 Squadron "Cobras" draw first blood. This incident of air violation is historically significant as it was PAF's first success against the IAF.

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## ghazi52

*Air Chief visits Headquarters Air Defence Command*





Islamabad: Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force paid maiden visit to Headquarters Air Defence Command Friday.

On his arrival, he was received by Air Vice Marshal Muhammad Zahoor Faisal, Air Officer Commanding, Air Defence Command.

Visiting the command and control centre of Air Defence Command, the Air Chief witnessed the ongoing operations carried out by the Air Defenders of the country. The visit was undertaken with a purpose to assess the operational readiness of the various installations of the Air Defence Command of Pakistan Air Force.

Interacting with the combat crew, the Air Chief appreciated their level of motivation in performing this sacred duty of defending the aerial frontiers round the clock. He added that we must make concerted efforts to keep the Pakistan Air Force in highest state of operational readiness.

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## blain2

khanasifm said:


> Self designation yes but precision attack, mirages and even f-7 can carry weapon and launch but needs designation from ground or by another carrier
> 
> Turks have 250 plus f-16 and total of about 60-80 pods including sniper and aselpod and older American
> 
> So expect for 250 jf-17 about 1 in 3 say ?? Pods ~80
> 
> Guessing


Mirages and F-7s do carry PGMs, but the F-16s have the all-weather, day/night strike capability due to better sensors which these other aircraft do not have. With the new Turkish pods going on the JF-17, it will start shouldering precision attack missions.

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## Humble Analyst

ziaulislam said:


> likley hood of going to IMF is alot, i would like to avoid it becasue it will affect growth but as the same time its IMF that forces reforms which govt for some unknown reason doesnt do ...
> so goignt o IMF might be better for reforms but will cut growth in short term due to austerity measures
> 
> 
> 250su30+120mig29/mirage+200 mig 21bison/27+100 jauguers=~ 700/32 suardons


What about the mirage 2000? And Rafaela arriving too?


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## fatman17

*PAF’s Counter-Terrorism Campaign *
Published in Hilal English 





Written By: Wing Commander Bahroni


In recent history, nature and dynamics of warfare have changed dramatically. Gone are the days of conventional warfare between two organized forces under established Military Rules and Laws of War. Weapons of mass destruction and aversion of masses towards destruction and misery caused by wars, as witnessed in two great wars, has made conventional conflicts less and less likely. Nations, jostling for power and influence, now resort to low intensity conflicts to achieve their objectives. Similarly, small groups within a state, who resort to armed struggle for their perceived rights or to enforce minority views on the majority, cannot wage a conventional battle against regular armies. Such groups resort to terror tactics and when supported by external entities pose a significant threat to the host nation.





Unfortunately, our nation has lately been targeted by such foreign funded terror groups. We have suffered enormously by the loss of precious lives of our brave soldiers and civilians, and by the loss of economic opportunities to the tune of trillions of rupees. Despite all odds, our Armed Forces have fought valiantly along with law enforcement agencies of our country. Results achieved in the past were commendable, but it was later realized that better synergy of tri-services would have resulted in increase efficiency in terms of achievement of objectives. As a result, PAF enhanced its counter-terrorism effort, with its unmatched attributes of _Height, Speed_ and _Reach_. Better synergistic effort has acted as a force multiplier and PAF was able to deliver a lethal blow to anti-state terrorist elements who no longer find any safe havens to conduct their subversive activities in Pakistan.


There is an assortment of collectives and individuals with a vested interest in terrorism and they have defined the term in the form that suits their bias or perspective. They include organisations and alliances of nations, academics and researchers, the legal profession, the health profession, counter-terrorism and law enforcement agencies, governments that wish to protect their citizens and even governments that wish to repress their citizens, terrorist groups and the media. Nevertheless, the most accepted definition, that characterizes the monster of terrorism, states that: “Terrorism is the unlawful use of force/violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives”.


Counter-terrorism on the other hand incorporates the practice, military tactics, techniques, and strategy that government, military, law enforcement, business, and intelligence agencies use to combat or prevent terrorism. Counter-terrorism strategies also include attempts to counter the financing of terrorist outfits. The methods adopted to counter terrorism will thus be a combination of political, social, economic and military measures. When applied collectively, they are called counter-terrorism operations and are undoubtedly comprehensive civilian and military efforts, designed to defeat and contain the terrorism and to address its root causes.


*Role of Air Power in Counter-Terrorism Operations*
Air power, by virtue of its characteristics of _Height, Speed, Reach, Flexibility_ and _Responsiveness_ supplements and overcomes inherent limitations of land forces. The terrain which prohibits reach of ground forces, the operations which demand quick response and the targets which warrant precision engagement make air power the first choice of arm. Air Force’s primary role in counter-terrorism operations is to employ real-time target intelligence and accurate target engagement for providing opportunity to friendly ground forces to attain their aim thus ground forces take charge of the area of operation after air power has softened the desired targets.


*Control of Air*
Control of air is the pre-requisite of any air as well as ground military operation. Mostly, in military operations against terrorists, the control of air is inherently available with the state’s air force. However, in-case terrorists possess aircraft or anti-aircraft weaponry then gaining control of airspace would be the first step towards military action in CT air operations.


*Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance (ISR) Missions*
The second yet important role of air power is actionable intelligence and target identification which is a vital aspect of CT military campaigns. Intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance missions flown by ISR platforms provide accurate real-time target location, identification, early warning and physical disposition of targets allowing for subsequent engagement of assigned targets from air. The information gathered through actionable intelligence and ISR platforms is then put to use in counter land operations. Availability of real-time targeting picture and precision guided munition enables air power to engage targets with greater accuracy and minimal collateral damage. Through well-coordinated and knitted CT airstrikes, air power can effectively engage targets with precision, reach and speed as compared to ground forces. Employing UAVs (Unmanned Aerial Vehicles) in CT operations doubles the advantages; long endurance and less operating cost further improves upon persistence and cost-benefit ratio of any military action. With application of air power, terrorist elements can be hit discreetly and proactively. The responsiveness enables commanders with initiative, flexibility and negligible exposure to dynamic threat environment.


*Planning Hierarchy*
In the modern world whenever a military operation is planned, it is highly coordinated and involves assets from all services. They appoint a _Joint Force Commander_ who is overall incharge of a CT campaign. Under him, there is a _Joint Force Air Component Commander_ who is responsible for the proper employment of the air power. Then there is a qualified officer called as J_oint Terminal Attack_ _Controller (JTAC)._





*Joint Terminal Attack Controller*
JTAC term is used in the modern Armed Forces for a qualified service member who directs the action of combat aircraft engaged in close air support and other offensive strikes from a forward position. JTAC coordinates the entire CT air operation from the start till the very end i.e., from target engagement till the fighters vacate the ops area airspace.


*PAF and CT Operations*
No two CT campaigns can be the same in terms of reasons/counter measures. Pakistan Armed Forces had to come up with a procedure tailored to best suit the terrain and demography which was being exploited by terrorist elements. Our ground forces have fought with commitment, courage and dedication in extremely difficult and unfriendly terrain in north-western region of Pakistan. They were faced with an adversary who was equipped with sophisticated warfighting arsenal and posed difficulties for our ground combatants. PAF was thus brought into action to engage the targets with precision and effectiveness thereby softening the ground for friendly forces. The core of CT operations is equally understood and professionally executed by Pakistan Armed Forces through tailor-made procedures acclimatized to meet our own environment. Pakistan Armed Forces have not only exhibited their strong arm in conventional wars with commitment, courage, dedication and professionalism but also have evolved the tactics and strategies to fight unconventional warfare.


*Planning Procedure* 
The fundamental rule governing all air operations jointly with sister services in PAF is directed against personnel and objects that are declared and identified as hostile. The operational planning cycle is mainly based on keeping in view home ground and consideration of zero collateral damage.


*Target Identification*
Target generation and identification is initially carried out by tactical soldiers and other intelligence agencies, whereas, aerial platforms are also being utilized for identification procedure through onboard ISR capabilities.


*Verification and Approval*
The next step involves verification of the targets which is done initially at GHQ through ground intelligence alongside PAF through ISR images and coordinates of targets to confirm their authenticity. After verification, these targets are then allotted to Pakistan Air Force for effective engagement. PAF, AHQ has established a separate Directorate which after allocation of designated target and approval by competent authority assigns the target to the Fighter Squadrons in the field for mission planning, consideration and timely execution.


*Mission Planning*
Mission planning is initiated on the receipt of an air request. Detailed analysis of the task target is carried out during planning of this mission. Meticulous operational planning ensures safety of mission and desired results. Due to cost, limited availability and implications on war reserve material, strict adherence to the principle of economy of effort is maintained by PAF. Specifically, in sub-conventional warfighting, economy of effort for precision guided munition is being calculated as _One Target, One Bomb._ All assigned targets are studied to ascertain the possibility of collateral damage. This involves taking into consideration the type of weapons, fuse settings, target composition, and terrain. It is imperative to ensure that the _Forward Line of Own Troops (FLOT)_ stays clear from debris of the weapons dropped by the friendly fighters, therefore, _FLOT_ distance is kept on weapon simulation.


*Safe Conduct of Operations*
In order to ensure safe conduct of operations all the missions are co-ordinated with Air Defence Command/other ground agencies so as to ensure that the airspace in the vicinity of target area becomes exclusive and no other traffic transits or shares this operational airspace.


*Dynamic Targeting*
Upon indication of a possible air strike, the group of terrorists might change their location therefore intelligence agencies and _ISR_ pictures are utilized to reconfirm their location and thus the dynamic targets are engaged by fighter aircraft. As a pre-requisite to receive real-time target Full Motion Video (FMV) for the conduct of _Time Critical Targeting,_ an _ISR_ asset with fully functional telemetry is deployed on station throughout the DT process. This in turn reduces sensor to shooter decision cycle time.


PAF has been at the forefront, shoulder to shoulder with sister services to uproot the menace of terrorism from Pakistan’s soil. May it be Balochistan unrest in the past or recent military actions like _Operations Zarb-e-Azb_ and _Radd-ul-Fasaad,_ PAF has turned out to be a major instrument in breaking the backbone of militants through joint operational methodology. Since intelligence is a key attribute of CT operations, PAF actively undertakes ISR operations in the area of interest for provisioning of real-time target information to own fighters as well as to Pakistan Army. For effective deployment and subsequent engagement, the ground troops require a detailed assessment of target which is also met by PAF through launching ISR missions in the area of interest, providing accurate geo-location, identification of target and detailed picture of terrain. Assessment of damage and confirmation of target engagement is also undertaken by PAF through ISR platforms. The battle damage assessment missions provide useful information for effective engagement of target, specifically by ground forces. The activities of terrorist elements along the porous western border made it crucial to destroy their focal point and leadership which has been achieved through precision strikes by PAF on terrorists’ concentration, training camps, leadership and logistic reserves in support of Pakistan Army. PAF’s instant response and application of precision guided munitions have ensured in-time and accurate engagement of targets with negligible collateral damage.


*Analysis*
Analysis of the subject reveals the following points:
• Contemporary model of CT Operations reveals wholesome utility of knitted assets exploiting full spectrum network centricity.
• Current operations have unprecedented synergy among tri-services at operational and tactical levels which may further be cemented through inducting procedural, technological and training measures.
• Popup threats can be efficiently neutralized through dynamic targeting by PAF fighters, exhibiting unmatched flexibility and responsiveness.
• Persistent ISR is the cornerstone of CT operations; Pakistan Army, Navy and Air Force are working to further synergize the ISR efforts.
• PAF’s application in CT operations has ensured quick response, accurate target engagement with minimal/no collateral damage. 
• PAF can lethally raze assigned targets, however for permanence of effects, Pakistan Army holds ground without giving breathing space to violent actors.


The success of CT operations is deeply rooted in the level of expertise, training, technology and most importantly, synergy. Although PAF is not a substitute for boots on ground, yet its unique capabilities of being a force multiplier combined with lethal firepower, ability to strike rapidly and maintaining diligence makes it an indispensable part of CT operations. Employment of Air Force in CT operations has gained unequalled dividends with minimal collateral damage. Pakistan Air Force has cut its teeth in the challenging anti-terrorism operations and has provided Pakistan Army invaluable support in the combat against the terrorists. No matter what the challenges are; a full scale aggression or counter-terrorism operations, PAF has maintained its professional image throughout its existence. Officers and men of the PAF are proud inheritors of a legacy of warriors who have left a permanent imprint on history. With the hallmark of courage and compassion, spurred on by its proud heritage as an efficient and hard hitting force, PAF shall remain committed to meet any challenge with dedication beyond the call of duty. No wonder that PAF has come up to the Quaid’s expectations of being _Second to None_.



E-mail: bahroni_riyadi@yahoo.com

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## Windjammer

*Commander PLAAF China Attends Graduation Parade At PAF Academy Asghar Khan*
RISALPUR, Apr 13 (APP):Commander People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) China, Lieutenant General Ding Laihang on Friday attended the Graduation Parade here at Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Asghar Khan Academy.
He was the chief guest at the graduation ceremony of No 139 GD(P),
No 85 Engineering, No 95 Air Defence, No 20 Admin & Special Duties and No 04 Logistics courses, said a statement issued by media affairs directorate of PAF.
On his arrival at the Academy, he was received by Air Chief Marshal
Mujahid Anwar Khan, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force.
“You are the pillars of PAF’s future and your excellence will forge a
world class air force”, he said while addressing the cadets at the Graduation Parade ceremony.
“You will shoulder the sacred mission of safeguarding national sovereignty and territorial integrity. I hope you, together with young military officers from PLAAF, would carry forward the friendly and cooperative relations between the two air forces,” he added.
He said since the establishment of diplomatic relations between China and Pakistan, both the countries had established all weather friendship and all round cooperation. “We always respect, understand and support each other in issues concerning core interests, representing an excellent model of friendly cooperation between two countries.
“As an important part of friendly cooperation between two countries, military-to-military cooperation between two air forces witnessed the broadest and deepest pragmatic exchanges,” he added.
In recent years, he said PLAAF and PAF had carried out extensive
cooperation and achieved great success in operational command, joint exercises, training, logistic supply, weapons and equipment.
A total of 109 aviation cadets including two cadets from Royal Saudi
Air Force and two lady cadets graduated in the ceremony. The chief guest awarded branch insignias to the graduating cadets and also gave away trophies to the distinction holders. He awarded Quaid-e-Azam Banner to No 4 Squadron, the new Champion Squadron of the Academy.
Aviation Cadet Academy Under Officer, Ameer Hamza clinched Chief of the Air Staff Trophy for best performance in flying and the coveted Sword of Honour for Overall Best Performance in College of Flying Training.
Chief of the Air Staff Trophy for best performance in engineering was lifted by Aviation Cadet Sergeant Hamza Hussain, whereas, the prestigious Sword of Honour for Overall Best Performance in College of Aeronautical Engineering was awarded to Aviation Cadet Squadron Under Officer, Furrukh Iqbal.
Trophies for overall best performance in No 95 Air Defence and No 20 Admin & Special Duties Courses were won by Aviation Cadet Sergeant Sarosh Arif and Aviation Cadet Sergeant Waleed Hassan respectively.
Aviation Cadet Sergeant Ahsan Ahmed won the trophy for Overall Best Performance in logistics course. Aviation Cadet Wing Under Officer, Muhmmad Kamran was awarded Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff CommitteeTrophy for Best Performance in General Service Training.
The ceremony was followed by a thrilling performance by “Eaglets”-
the Para Motor Glider team of the Academy. “Bravehearts and Sherdils”, the PAF Academy aerobatics teams also displayed a stunning aerial display on the occasion.
The well-synchronized drill presented by Hamza Flight was an icing
on the cake, which was thoroughly enjoyed by the guests. The ceremony was witnessed by high-ranking military & civil officials, diplomats, foreign dignitaries and a large number of guests of graduating cadets.

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## fatman17

Azerbaijan Air Force MFI Super Mushshak produced by @packamra Pakistan. [emoji1191][emoji1039] https://t.co/VNJ12aQPhf

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## Maxpane

*China’s PLAAF Commander witnesses graduation ceremony at PAF*







Web Desk

_




RISALPUR: “You are the pillars of PAF' s future and your excellence will forge a world class air force”, said Lieutenant General Ding Laihang, Commander People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF), China while addressing the Graduation Parade at PAF Academy, Asghar Khan, Friday.







He was the Chief Guest during the graduation ceremony of 139 GD(P), 85 Engineering, 95 Air Defence, 20 Admin & Special Duties and 04 Logistics courses. On his arrival at the Academy, he was received by Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force.

Addressing the graduating cadets the Chief Guest said, “You will shoulder the sacred mission of safeguarding national sovereignty and territorial integrity. I hope you, together with young military officers from PLAAF, would carry forward the friendly and cooperative relations between the two air forces”.






He further said, “Since the establishment of diplomatic relations between China and Pakistan, we have established all weather friendship and all round cooperation. We always respect, understand and support each other in issues concerning core interests, representing an excellent model of friendly cooperation between two countries”.

He added, “As an important part of friendly cooperation between two countries, military to military cooperation between two air forces witnessed the broadest and deepest pragmatic exchanges. In recent years, PLAAF and PAF have carried out extensive cooperation and achieved great success in operational command, joint exercises, training, logistic supply, weapons and equipment”.

A total of 109 aviation cadets including 02 cadets from Royal Saudi Air Force and 02 Lady Cadets graduated in the ceremony. The Chief Guest awarded branch insignias to the graduating cadets and also gave away trophies to the distinction holders.

The chief guest awarded Quaid-e-Azam Banner to 4 Squadron, the new Champion Squadron of the Academy.

Aviation Cadet Academy Under Officer Ameer Hamza clinched Chief of the Air Staff Trophy for best performance in Flying and the coveted Sword of Honour for Overall Best Performance in College of Flying Training.

Chief of the Air Staff Trophy for best performance in Engineering was lifted by Aviation Cadet Sergeant Hamza Hussain; whereas, the prestigious Sword of Honour for Overall Best Performance in College of Aeronautical Engineering was awarded to Aviation Cadet Squadron Under Officer Furrukh Iqbal.

Trophies for overall best performance in No 95 Air Defence and No 20 Admin & Special Duties Courses were won by Aviation Cadet Sergeant Sarosh Arif and Aviation Cadet Sergeant Waleed Hassan respectively.

Aviation Cadet Sergeant Ahsan Ahmed won the trophy for Overall Best Performance in Logistics course. Aviation Cadet Wing Under Officer Muhmmad Kamran was awarded Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee Trophy for Best Performance in General Service Training.

The ceremony was followed by a thrilling performance by “Eaglets”- the Para Motor Glider team of the Academy.

“Bravehearts and Sherdils”, the PAF Academy Aerobatics Teams also displayed a stunning aerial display at the occasion. The well-synchronized drill presented by Hamza Flight was an icing on the cake, which was thoroughly enjoyed by the guests.

The ceremony was witnessed by high-ranking Military & Civil Officials, Diplomats, foreign dignitaries and a large number of guests of graduating cadets
_


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## Talon

View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram

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## Cool_Soldier

Really nice


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## Maxpane

Amazing


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## Windjammer

Hodor said:


> View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram


So JF-17 is rubbing shoulders and blending it with the F-15, F-16, F/A-18, Typhoons and the F-5s.....but hey Tejas has been to Bahrain.

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## Talon

Windjammer said:


> So JF-17 is rubbing shoulders and blending it with the F-15, F-16, F/A-18, Typhoons and the F-5s.....but hey Tejas has been to Bahrain.


hahaha ikr


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## Irfan Baloch

Windjammer said:


> So JF-17 is rubbing shoulders and blending it with the F-15, F-16, F/A-18, Typhoons and the F-5s.....but hey Tejas has been to Bahrain.


nice flight past.


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## Gomig-21

Irfan Baloch said:


> nice flight past.



Definitely. Something we don't get to see very often, this kind of participation.

From left to right:
Bahraini F-5s
Pakistani JF-17s
Saudi F-15C
Saudi F-15S
Saudi Typhoon
Kuwaiti F/A-18
Egyptian F-16

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## ZedZeeshan

Windjammer said:


> So JF-17 is rubbing shoulders and blending it with the F-15, F-16, F/A-18, Typhoons and the F-5s.....but hey Tejas has been to Bahrain.


Tameez. Haad-e-Adab. SP-9 just few few days ago...


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## syed_yusuf

Only non Western fighter in the mix is JFT

Why uae mirage is missing

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## Gomig-21

syed_yusuf said:


> Only non Western fighter in the mix is JFT
> 
> Why uae mirage is missing



They didn't bring them as far as I know. They showed up with just their Block-60's, while Bahrain came with both, their F-5s and F-16s.

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## Talon

JF17 flying in formation along with other airforces during Gulf Shield

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## denel

Gomig-21 said:


> Definitely. Something we don't get to see very often, this kind of participation.
> 
> From left to right:
> Bahraini F-5s
> Pakistani JF-17s
> Saudi F-15C
> Saudi F-15S
> Saudi Typhoon
> Kuwaiti F/A-18
> Egyptian F-16


Wing and tail between jf-17 and f-5 is very close for visual id.


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## Gomig-21

denel said:


> Wing and tail between jf-17 and f-5 is very close for visual id.



They are, but if you click and enlarge, you can see the huge LERX on the JF-17 and even the IFR probe. LERX and intake location very distinct on the JF-17. Same formation in the last batch of pics also shows those two in the same positions.


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## fatman17

#GulfShield exercise continues.
Pakistan Air Force Jf17 Thunder spotted flying in formation with F15S/SA Eagles, EF Typhoon & F5 Tiger of Royal Saudi Air Force, F/A18C Super Hornet of Kuwait Air Force, F16C Falcon of Egyptian Air Force. https://t.co/3dL7RByZNs


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## Readerdefence

Hi looks like only one jf17 having IFR on it 
Thank you


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## fatman17

On April 16, 1987, PAF F-16 flown by Squadron Leader Badar-ul-Islam shoot down an intruding Afghan Su-22 near Thal area during the Afghan War. Squadron Leader Saif-ur-Rahman was the Air Defence Controller on radar for this mission. https://t.co/GcNiXKTW4w

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## Gomig-21

This formation is getting some good mileage. UAE blk60 scooted in and took the Kuwait F-18 slot.

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## fatman17

Pakistan and Malaysia are in preliminary discussions about the potential export of the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex/Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation (PAC/CAC) JF-17 Thunder combat aircraft, an official from PAC has confirmed to Jane’s.
https://t.co/sAnmKBCu3o

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## fatman17

Industry

DSA 2018: Pakistan in ‘primary level’ talks with Malaysia on JF-17

Jon Grevatt, Kuala Lumpur - IHS Jane's Defence Industry

15 April 2018

Pakistan is in preliminary discussions with Malaysia about the potential sale of the JF-17 Thunder seen here in Pakistani colours. Source: IHS Markit/Patrick Allen

Pakistan and Malaysia are in preliminary discussions about the potential export of the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex/Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation (PAC/CAC) JF-17 Thunder combat aircraft, an official from PAC has confirmed to Jane’s .

Speaking at the Defence Services Asia (DSA) 2018 exhibition in Kuala Lumpur on 16 April, the PAC official – who did not want to be identified – said the two governments have had “primary level talks” about a potential sale of the single-engine fighter in order to meet the air combat requirements of the Royal Malaysian Air Force (RMAF).

“We are aware of the potential requirements in Malaysia for cost-effective fighter aircraft,” he said. “There have been no serious talks but through government-to-government channels there have been what we can describe as primary level talks about the JF-17 programme.”

In supporting a potential deal for Malaysia, the official said that PAC is willing to enter collaborative partnerships with local industry through which technologies could be transferred to facilitate either localised component manufacturing or maintenance, repair and overhaul (MRO). “Of course, the industrial engagement would depend on the sale of the Malaysian requirement,” he said.

Malaysia initially expressed an interest in the JF-17 several years ago. Jane’s has previously reported that Malaysia’s high commissioner to Pakistan said in December 2015 that Malaysia was considering purchasing the JF-17 and might make a decision “very soon”. However, Malaysia’s defence minister denied the story the following day.

Malaysia’s requirement stems from continuing delays in the RMAF’s programme to procure a twin-engine multirole combat aircraft. This programme, which was announced more than a decade ago, has been hindered largely due to a lack of funds.

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## araz

fatman17 said:


> Pakistan and Malaysia are in preliminary discussions about the potential export of the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex/Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation (PAC/CAC) JF-17 Thunder combat aircraft, an official from PAC has confirmed to Jane’s.
> https://t.co/sAnmKBCu3o


Biggest news if it goes through. This would really be a big sale for PAF and JFT. Presumably this would be block3. An off the cuff point to consider, if this is a preliminary discussion then the official should have kept quiet at this stage. We have had so many starts and interests that dont go anywhere so no news should be leaked unless a contract is to be signed imminently.
A

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## fatman17

araz said:


> Biggest news if it goes through. This would really be a big sale for PAF and JFT. Presumably this would be block3. An off the cuff point to consider, if this is a preliminary discussion then the official should have kept quiet at this stage. We have had so many starts and interests that dont go anywhere so no news should be leaked unless a contract is to be signed imminently.
> A


True, but at the same time, one needs to showcase the interest in the system by potential customers. PAC has a uphill battle against western and Russian aerospace giants so any type of order book is a huge victory. 
Nigeria 
Myanmar

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## The Ronin




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## Avicenna

fatman17 said:


> Industry
> 
> DSA 2018: Pakistan in ‘primary level’ talks with Malaysia on JF-17
> 
> Jon Grevatt, Kuala Lumpur - IHS Jane's Defence Industry
> 
> 15 April 2018
> 
> Pakistan is in preliminary discussions with Malaysia about the potential sale of the JF-17 Thunder seen here in Pakistani colours. Source: IHS Markit/Patrick Allen
> 
> Pakistan and Malaysia are in preliminary discussions about the potential export of the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex/Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation (PAC/CAC) JF-17 Thunder combat aircraft, an official from PAC has confirmed to Jane’s .
> 
> Speaking at the Defence Services Asia (DSA) 2018 exhibition in Kuala Lumpur on 16 April, the PAC official – who did not want to be identified – said the two governments have had “primary level talks” about a potential sale of the single-engine fighter in order to meet the air combat requirements of the Royal Malaysian Air Force (RMAF).
> 
> “We are aware of the potential requirements in Malaysia for cost-effective fighter aircraft,” he said. “There have been no serious talks but through government-to-government channels there have been what we can describe as primary level talks about the JF-17 programme.”
> 
> In supporting a potential deal for Malaysia, the official said that PAC is willing to enter collaborative partnerships with local industry through which technologies could be transferred to facilitate either localised component manufacturing or maintenance, repair and overhaul (MRO). “Of course, the industrial engagement would depend on the sale of the Malaysian requirement,” he said.
> 
> Malaysia initially expressed an interest in the JF-17 several years ago. Jane’s has previously reported that Malaysia’s high commissioner to Pakistan said in December 2015 that Malaysia was considering purchasing the JF-17 and might make a decision “very soon”. However, Malaysia’s defence minister denied the story the following day.
> 
> Malaysia’s requirement stems from continuing delays in the RMAF’s programme to procure a twin-engine multirole combat aircraft. This programme, which was announced more than a decade ago, has been hindered largely due to a lack of funds.
> 
> View attachment 466945



Alhamdulilah! 

This would be significant. Hopefully, it goes through. 

And other countries to follow inshAllah!

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## ghazi52

Beauty.

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## ghazi52

Leonardo Helicopters just announced that Pakistan has purchased more AW139s. For delivery in early 2019. The PAF has already taken delivery of several to replace the operational Alouette IIIs. They will be used for utility, transport and EMS as the previous order.


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## razgriz19




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## khanasifm

razgriz19 said:


>



Who is this dude ??


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## Raider 21

fatman17 said:


> On April 16, 1987, PAF F-16 flown by Squadron Leader Badar-ul-Islam shoot down an intruding Afghan Su-22 near Thal area during the Afghan War. Squadron Leader Saif-ur-Rahman was the Air Defence Controller on radar for this mission. https://t.co/GcNiXKTW4w
> View attachment 466890


First Viper kill for the Tail Choppers...

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## Tps43

Knuckles said:


> First Viper kill for the Tail Choppers...


The controller in this mission later became sector commander north and then ACAS AD , at that time ACAS AD was highest position for anyone in AD branch.

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## fatman17

khanasifm said:


> Who is this dude ??


Guy with $$$$


----------



## fatman17

Will Malaysia Buy Pakistan’s JF-17 Fighter Jet?

Pakistan has been in “primary talks” with Malaysia over the procurement of the JF-17 fighter jet.


By Franz-Stefan Gady
April 17, 2018



Pakistan and Malaysia are purportedly engaged in preliminary talks over the possible procurement of an unknown number of Pakistan Aeronautical Complex/Chengdu Aerospace Corporation (PAC/CAC) JF-17 “Thunder” multirole fighter jets, a PAC official told IHS Jane’s at the Defense Services Asia (DSA) 2018 exhibition in Kuala Lumpur on April 16.

“We are aware of the potential requirements in Malaysia for cost-effective fighter aircraft,” the PAC official said. “There have been no serious talks but through government-to-government channels there have been what we can describe as primary level talks about the JF-17 program.”

Malaysia purportedly expressed interested in the JF-17 in 2015. However, reports that the Royal Malaysian Air Force (RMAF) was considering purchasing the aircraft were quickly publicly denied by the Malaysian defense ministry at the time.


The RMAF initially intended to procure 18 new fighter jets to replace aging Mig-29 combat aircraft and supplement its fleet of twin-engine F/A-18D and Su-30MKM fighter jets. However, the acquisition program was shelved due to budgetary constraints in 2017.

Instead, the RMAF has reportedly been considering cheaper lightweight multirole fighters with a number of countries already positioning themselves for a future competitive bidding process. Next to Sweden’s JAS-39C/D Gripen, China’s J-10, and Russia’s Mig-35, the JF-17 would likely be the cheapest option for the RMAF.

The production of the JF-17 has been split up into three blocks: Block I, Block II, and Block III. Malaysia would receive the Block III variant of the aircraft with production slated to kick off in 2019. (50 Block I and 50 Block II aircraft have been produced so far with 12 more of the latter to be rolled out in 2018.)

The JF-17’s most advanced variant will feature various upgrades in comparison to the earlier versions “including Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar, which will replace the older Nanjing Research Institute of Electronic Technologies’ (NRIET) KLJ-7 X-band fire control radar, and a new electronic warfare system, among other things,” I summarized in 2017.

“Powered by a Russian designed but Chinese license-built Klimov RD-93 (a RD-33 derivative) turbofan engine, [the JF-17] can reportedly reach a top speed of up to Mach 1.6 and has an operational range of up to 1,200 kilometers without refueling,” I explained in previously. The fighter jet, featuring seven hardpoints, can be armed with a variety of weapons including air-to-air, air-to-surface, and anti-ship missiles.

What perhaps could make the JF-17 particularly attractive to the RMAF is that its engine is also in use in the Mig-29 and for which the service already has repair and maintenance facilities in place. This would further reduce overall operational cost of the new aircraft for the cash-strapped Malaysian military.

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## Clairvoyant

Knuckles said:


> First Viper kill for the Tail Choppers...


When did he retire?


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## Raider 21

tps77 said:


> The controller in this mission later became sector commander north and then ACAS AD , at that time ACAS AD was highest position for anyone in AD branch.


Unfortunately pilot became medically unfit and had to retire at the rank of squadron leader even though he is one of the best fighter pilots the world has ever seen.....they called him "BADER" after Douglas Bader...

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## Tps43

Knuckles said:


> Unfortunately pilot became medically unfit and had to retire at the rank of squadron leader even though he is one of the best fighter pilots the world has ever seen.....they called him "BADER" after Douglas Bader...


By choice or was he was medically unable to continue in any role ?


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## Raider 21

tps77 said:


> By choice or was he was medically unable to continue in any role ?


Let's just say lifting weights without proper posture coupled with pulling Gs on the job will ruin you....

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## Tps43

Knuckles said:


> Let's just say lifting weights without proper posture coupled with pulling Gs on the job will ruin you....


ohh now I got it


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## fatman17

History of Western Fighters

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## fatman17

Gulf Shield

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## Armchair

araz said:


> Biggest news if it goes through. This would really be a big sale for PAF and JFT. Presumably this would be block3. An off the cuff point to consider, if this is a preliminary discussion then the official should have kept quiet at this stage. We have had so many starts and interests that dont go anywhere so no news should be leaked unless a contract is to be signed imminently.
> A


While I enjoy digging out info from defence.pk, which gives a LOT of information if you know what and where to look, I do feel you are right on the money about giving away such information.


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## Taygibay

Tand report on USAF _ PAF relationship :

https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RR2107.html


The USAF and U.S. policymakers should understand the limits of U.S., and particularly USAF, leverage over Pakistan's choices.
The USAF and U.S. interlocutors should calibrate Pakistan's expectations about what is politically feasible in the United States. They should also recognize the impact of the tone of rhetoric by members of the U.S. policy community.
Subject always to changing geopolitical circumstances, the United States should continue to approve maintenance, training, and support for existing Pakistan Air Force (PAF) F-16s, and be wary of calls to forgo (or accelerate) future transfers.
The USAF should offer the opportunity for PAF to send a select officer to serve as an instructor at a USAF school.
The United States should — to the extent possible without jeopardizing its relationship with India — consider sales of technical systems that support improved collaboration in areas of shared interests, such as counterterrorism or counterinsurgency missions.
Well worth the read as usual with Rand Corp.

@Oscar @Joe Shearer @AUSTERLITZ @Indus Falcon @Zarvan @Solomon2 @Windjammer @member.exe

Think, Tay.

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## mingle

How about exchange programs like pilot exchange plus a US IP at Risalpur 


It should be beneficial for both parties.
US culture last 30 yrs changed alot so I do not see any issues over these programs.

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## Joe Shearer

Taygibay said:


> Tand report on USAF _ PAF relationship :
> 
> https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RR2107.html
> 
> 
> The USAF and U.S. policymakers should understand the limits of U.S., and particularly USAF, leverage over Pakistan's choices.
> The USAF and U.S. interlocutors should calibrate Pakistan's expectations about what is politically feasible in the United States. They should also recognize the impact of the tone of rhetoric by members of the U.S. policy community.
> Subject always to changing geopolitical circumstances, the United States should continue to approve maintenance, training, and support for existing Pakistan Air Force (PAF) F-16s, and be wary of calls to forgo (or accelerate) future transfers.
> The USAF should offer the opportunity for PAF to send a select officer to serve as an instructor at a USAF school.
> The United States should — to the extent possible without jeopardizing its relationship with India — consider sales of technical systems that support improved collaboration in areas of shared interests, such as counterterrorism or counterinsurgency missions.
> Well worth the read as usual with Rand Corp.
> 
> @Oscar @Joe Shearer @AUSTERLITZ @Indus Falcon @Zarvan @Solomon2 @Windjammer
> 
> Think, Tay.



On target, as usual. However, it depends on the point of view. From the point of view of a superpower that used Pakistan and failed to retain her loyalty or her allegiance, it is understandable. There is nothing to gain by sustained hostility, and possibly everything to lose, there is something - not much, but better than nothing - to gain by retaining a civil relationship and maintaining what has been supplied and sold already.

As I said, that is from the American point of view. 

From another point of view, the PAF is Pakistan's most efficient service, but at the moment brought to dangerous straits by strategic mistakes (@MastanKhan may not be entirely right, but he is not entirely wrong) and difficult economic conditions. 

Out of the 530 fighter, interceptor, attack and reconnaisance aircraft remaining, the F 16 constitutes 85, and the bulk of the remainder is Mirages (165) and JF 17s (100). This service is vulnerable, less so than their Navy, but vulnerable nevertheless. 

Apart from the Americans, nobody else has a stake in maintaining their F 16 inventory, least of all the Chinese, who will wish for a reduction of the 530 to aircraft sourced from China exclusively. The Russians too want that vacuum that might result to be filled by them; their aircraft programme desperately needs partners to complete it, partners on an unrealistic basis that could have been achieved even a decade or more ago, but one that is completely untenable today. Their game plan is to earn enough from the exports of their models that are up and running to pay for the models under development. So, nobody but the Pakistanis and the American need the F 16 to be nurtured. 

These are the two principals. The rest will wait upon events.

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## MastanKhan

Armchair said:


> While I enjoy digging out info from defence.pk, which gives a LOT of information if you know what and where to look, I do feel you are right on the money about giving away such information.



Hi,

This is the first BIG ticket item that Pakistan's defense industry has to sell---and they have been clueless how to approach it. 

For that very reason---there has been a lots of interests---but not major bites---.

The reason being---if the BLK1 was not satisfactory for the mother country---it is not satisfactory for the end user---.

If BLK2 needs to get some twerks---then again---it is still not good enough for the end user either----.

This is not a 70's / 80/s market---where you could sell your inferior product---. 

Buyers nowadays want fully loaded equipment---even though they may not have their usage----because the top tier equipment gives the operator a massive edge---that may not be compensated with just a pilot alone---.

Next---this kind of interest is normal from curious / interested parties---.

It is easier dealing with Pakistan than with other nations. They have their eyes on the SD10 and PL15 and CM400AKG, AESA at the minimum---.

The 2 seater will break the sound barrier---.


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## fatman17



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## alimobin memon

https://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-AIRCR...-MIG-21-AVIATION-AIRBORNE-RADIO-/172600253662

Mig 21 Radar for 50000 PKR on sale.


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## Taygibay

Joe, on average between Pak and US,
Pakistan feels only the yoke while
America conflates misunderstood
motives that indeed often change
with disobedience/treacherousness.

Rand as usual starts from reality, not
a given perception of it and reaches
"purer" prospectives, better tools.
[ It explains why they remain on top,
almost a different breed if not animal
than modern so-called think tanks. ]

My interest is of course dissemination
of this type of view in the general pool
of PDF members because Rand's ways
could bear to be imported amidst the
fake news gala and credomination. ***

Let's see where it goes.

All the best to you and yours, Tay.


P.S. *** A gift of a neologism to you that
I made myself from the domination of
a strictly adhered to view over facts.

P.P.S. If I had to choose between a sole
provider for the PAF as you offered, I'd
go with the Celestials because they have
the good sense as with the CPEC to help
their clients enrich themselves to pay for
the jets whereas Russia pains to keep its
economy healthy.

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## BHarwana

First JF-17B delivered to PAF







https://k.sina.cn/article_5445360823_144919cb70010069az.html


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## fatman17

On March 10, a Pakistani pilot drove serial 01 aircraft to successfully make the first flight in Pakistan, then the second flight inspection was completed, and 01 planes were officially delivered to Pakistan on April 3. 2/2 https://t.co/ZGDHpa66I8

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## هيرون



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## Talon



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## fatman17

Speaking to Jane’s on the sidelines of this year’s Defence Services Asia (DSA) expo being held in Kuala Lumpur, an official from the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) has revealed that preliminary talks have kicked off that may see the JF-17 fighter sold to Malaysia. While stressing that no serious talks have started yet, the anonymous official said that PAC was will to form collaborative partnerships with local industry in Malaysia through which technologies could be transferred to facilitate either localised component manufacturing or maintenance, repair and overhaul (MRO). Rumours had surfaced that Malaysia was interested in the JF-17 in 2015, but these had been previously downplayed by its defense ministry. This time, if talks were to mature to a further stage, the JF-17 may offer a cost effective solution to the Royal Malaysian Air Force’s requirement for a twin-engine multirole combat aircraft. The RMAF program, which was announced more than a decade ago, has been hindered largely due to a lack of funds.


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## Armchair

fatman17 said:


> Speaking to Jane’s on the sidelines of this year’s Defence Services Asia (DSA) expo being held in Kuala Lumpur, an official from the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) has revealed that preliminary talks have kicked off that may see the JF-17 fighter sold to Malaysia. While stressing that no serious talks have started yet, the anonymous official said that PAC was will to form collaborative partnerships with local industry in Malaysia through which technologies could be transferred to facilitate either localised component manufacturing or maintenance, repair and overhaul (MRO). Rumours had surfaced that Malaysia was interested in the JF-17 in 2015, but these had been previously downplayed by its defense ministry. This time, if talks were to mature to a further stage, the JF-17 may offer a cost effective solution to the Royal Malaysian Air Force’s requirement for a twin-engine multirole combat aircraft. The RMAF program, which was announced more than a decade ago, has been hindered largely due to a lack of funds.



I am very sad that they revealed preliminary discussions. I think this is a little naive on the part of whoever did this. Now there will be arm twisting to stop such a deal by everyone from the US, India, etc. The US tried every possible way to stop the JF-17. 

And what's with always giving exclusive access to white AFM or Janes people? Why can't similar access and leaks be given to local or non-western journalists? Anyways, the news is a good one and I am very happy to hear this.

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## fatman17

Meet newly delivered Pakistan army Enstrom 280FXs helicopter.
These helicopters are ideal training helicopter to operate in the difficult climate conditions of Pakistan for training rotary wing crew. So far Pakistan has taken delivery of Four of these cute beauties. https://t.co/9U3TXt2MjJ

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## Tps43

fatman17 said:


> Meet newly delivered Pakistan army Enstrom 280FXs helicopter.
> These helicopters are ideal training helicopter to operate in the difficult climate conditions of Pakistan for training rotary wing crew. So far Pakistan has taken delivery of Four of these cute beauties. https://t.co/9U3TXt2MjJ
> View attachment 468589


Army or Paf?


----------



## fatman17

Defence Blog

Pakistan buying more AW139 intermediate twin engine helicopters

By Colton Jones 23, April, 2018
  Country: Pakistan 



Leonardo has been awarded a contract by the Government of Pakistan to provide an undisclosed number of additional AW139 intermediate twin engine helicopters, said in announced by press service of the company.

According to the company, the Government of Pakistan will introduce into service an undisclosed number of additional AW139 intermediate twin engine helicopters. The aircraft will be used to perform utility, passenger transport and emergency medical service operations across the nation. The helicopters will be delivered in early 2019.


This latest fleet expansion is a further step towards the completion of a fleet renewal programme spread over several batches and highlights the success of the AW139. Leonardo is also delivering logistic support and training services for the growing fleet of AW139s in Pakistan. A significant number of AW139s are already in service in Pakistan, with several operated by the Pakistan Government for EMS/SAR, relief and transport duties.


The AW139 is the perfect fit to Pakistan’s challenging operational environment, delivering outstanding capabilities and hot & high performance unmatched by any other helicopter type in the same class.

Leonardo noted that the militarised version of the AW139; the market-leading intermediate twin-engine helicopter – the benchmark for safety design features, performance capabilities and productivity in challenging operations all over the world.

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## fatman17

tps77 said:


> Army or Paf?


My bad. army

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## khanasifm

fatman17 said:


> Defence Blog
> 
> Pakistan buying more AW139 intermediate twin engine helicopters
> 
> By Colton Jones 23, April, 2018
> Country: Pakistan
> 
> 
> 
> Leonardo has been awarded a contract by the Government of Pakistan to provide an undisclosed number of additional AW139 intermediate twin engine helicopters, said in announced by press service of the company.
> 
> According to the company, the Government of Pakistan will introduce into service an undisclosed number of additional AW139 intermediate twin engine helicopters. The aircraft will be used to perform utility, passenger transport and emergency medical service operations across the nation. The helicopters will be delivered in early 2019.
> 
> 
> This latest fleet expansion is a further step towards the completion of a fleet renewal programme spread over several batches and highlights the success of the AW139. Leonardo is also delivering logistic support and training services for the growing fleet of AW139s in Pakistan. A significant number of AW139s are already in service in Pakistan, with several operated by the Pakistan Government for EMS/SAR, relief and transport duties.
> 
> 
> The AW139 is the perfect fit to Pakistan’s challenging operational environment, delivering outstanding capabilities and hot & high performance unmatched by any other helicopter type in the same class.
> 
> Leonardo noted that the militarised version of the AW139; the market-leading intermediate twin-engine helicopter – the benchmark for safety design features, performance capabilities and productivity in challenging operations all over the world.
> 
> 
> View attachment 468635



Look like one of them has a flare/chaff dispenser on the tail ??

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## Readerdefence

khanasifm said:


> Look like one of them has a flare/chaff dispenser on the tail ??


Hi or can be a camera ? Kind of thing 
Thank you

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## fatman17

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/988724448864997376

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## airbus101

Good Analysis between PAF and IAF #iafkhichriakaTejas

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## Ahmet Pasha

Agreed such undertakings never should be revealed prematurely. 

Cheap labor for Iblis at work again.


Armchair said:


> I am very sad that they revealed preliminary discussions. I think this is a little naive on the part of whoever did this. Now there will be arm twisting to stop such a deal by everyone from the US, India, etc. The US tried every possible way to stop the JF-17.
> 
> And what's with always giving exclusive access to white AFM or Janes people? Why can't similar access and leaks be given to local or non-western journalists? Anyways, the news is a good one and I am very happy to hear this.

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## fatman17

Today In Aviation History

On April 28, 1975, Chinese FT-5, two-seat advanced training version of the J-5 (Chinese built Mig-17) aircraft inducted into PAF fleet. Pakistan was the first country to acquire some FT-5's; other known recipients include Sudan, Bangladesh and Tanzania. https://t.co/8UqveB6a0n

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## The Fist

In these pictures taken on December 27, 2017, technicians work on a Mirage aircraft during a full overhaul by the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) at the Mirage Rebuild Factory (MRF) in Kamra, west of the capital Islamabad. - Fifty years after Pakistan bought its first Mirages, many plans in the venerable fleet are still being patched up, overhauled and upgraded for use in combat, years after conventional wisdom dictates they should be grounded.

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## Armchair-General

Mirages have got 6 years of life left, J10 should be a good replacement for it. Can we can buy them I batches of 12 to 18 a year?

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## hassan1



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## hassan1



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## hassan1



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## hassan1



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## Raider 21

hassan1 said:


> View attachment 470613


My old man is in 84718 in this pic....



hassan1 said:


> View attachment 470647


Definitely got the details slightly wrong about the incident on April 29th, 1987...

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## LKJ86



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## ghazi52

Turkey’s Chief of General Staff General Hulusi Akar visited the Air Headquarters in Islamabad on Friday and lauded the Pakistan Air Force’s (PAF) role in fighting the war against terrorism and expressed his desire to learn from its experiences.

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## fatman17

J20 HMDS

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## alimobin memon

SO did jf17 really had a one on one against f7 pg in exercise what was outcome ?


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## Alex John

26 and 1 is lost due to fatal crash leaving 25.


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## ghazi52

Father of Pakistan Air Force, Asghar Khan briefing pioneering team at Risalpur in 1947.

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## fatman17

Good to see PAF Uqaab force using Pakistan own Cavalier group Interceptor Armored vehicle manufactured and engineered by Pakistan own Cavalier group. https://t.co/oBKWGjiopz

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## Ahmet Pasha

R u sure?? Didnt thw Americans deliver similar looking vehicles to PAF and ministry of interior Balochistan a few months back??

Or were they difderent from these cavalier vehicles??


fatman17 said:


> Good to see PAF Uqaab force using Pakistan own Cavalier group Interceptor Armored vehicle manufactured and engineered by Pakistan own Cavalier group. https://t.co/oBKWGjiopz
> View attachment 473365


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## Tps43

fatman17 said:


> *End of an Era;*
> 
> The J-7/F-7 production line was closed in May 2013 after the 30 years of production.
> 
> 
> 
> future ACM's.....who knows!


Have u got any powers to foresee future ?


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## fatman17

tps77 said:


> Have u got any powers to foresee future ?


Would like to

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## fatman17

Ahmet Pasha said:


> R u sure?? Didnt thw Americans deliver similar looking vehicles to PAF and ministry of interior Balochistan a few months back??
> 
> Or were they difderent from these cavalier vehicles??


Can't comment really


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## HAIDER

Same company makes .













Hamza 8x8

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## Muhammad Omar

HAIDER said:


> Same company makes .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 473610
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hamza 8x8
> View attachment 473611


Why Army isn't procuring these ??


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## HAIDER

Muhammad Omar said:


> Why Army isn't procuring these ??


Let's bring this topic to PA section, open a thread and see the feedback.

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## araz

HAIDER said:


> Let's bring this topic to PA section, open a thread and see the feedback.


Or simply ask the question in the IFV thread.
A


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## fatman17

Aircraft Details 
Name:	Saab 2000 Erieye AEW&C
Operator:	Pakistan Air Force
Registration:	10040
Location 
Islamabad, PAKISTAN
Date 
09-08-2017
Photographer 
SalmanFalconsPK
Photo Category 
Military


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## BHarwana

Possible sales of JF-17 to Bulgaria.

Bulgarian Govt has purposed parliament the purchase of 8 fighter Jets with 1.8 billion leva ($1.08 billion)

Mig is not included as Europe has sanctioned Russia.

Six companies are invited for tender. 

They are also considering purchase of second had jets.

JF-17 has the highest sales potential here as JF-17 fits the desired price Bulgaria is looking for.


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## Tps43

BHarwana said:


> Possible sales of JF-17 to Bulgaria.
> 
> Bulgarian Govt has purposed parliament the purchase of 8 fighter Jets with 1.8 billion leva ($1.08 billion)
> 
> Mig is not included as Europe has sanctioned Russia.
> 
> Six companies are invited for tender.
> 
> They are also considering purchase of second had jets.
> 
> JF-17 has the highest sales potential here as JF-17 fits the desired price Bulgaria is looking for.


F 16's?


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## BHarwana

tps77 said:


> F 16's?



F-16s will there to compete in the tender but my assessment is more of Gripen or JF-17 will be main competition. The price at which Bulgaria want's Jets is low and Mig is not invited so it leaves PAF and SAAB as main competitors in the tender.

Link to the news of Bulgarian proposal of fighter jets purchase. You can get more info here.

http://www.bta.bg/en/c/DF/id/1801663

the offers to Bulgaria also include second hand F-16 from Portugal and Eurofighter Typhoon fighters from Italy. So it leaves Gripen and JF-17 as new fighter Jet choices.


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## Readerdefence

BHarwana said:


> F-16s will there to compete in the tender but my assessment is more of Gripen or JF-17 will be main competition. The price at which Bulgaria want's Jets is low and Mig is not invited so it leaves PAF and SAAB as main competitors in the tender.
> 
> Link to the news of Bulgarian proposal of fighter jets purchase. You can get more info here.
> 
> http://www.bta.bg/en/c/DF/id/1801663
> 
> the offers to Bulgaria also include second hand F-16 from Portugal and Eurofighter Typhoon fighters from Italy. So it leaves Gripen and JF-17 as new fighter Jet choices.


Hi my friend your analysis about Bulgarian airforce is very well described but I think they will get f16 as they are EU and a NATO ally in that case f16 will be the easiest way to pass over to them 
Even block 40 or 50 will be quite sufficient for them as most of the NATO countries are trying to sell off their f16 to space out for f35 and being a EU and NATO ally it’s very much possible for Bulgarian airforce to get them and trained over easily 
About eurofighter I think that will be little bit too much for them at the moment as compare to whatever they are flying at the moment 
Thank you

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## BHarwana

Readerdefence said:


> Hi my friend your analysis about Bulgarian airforce is very well described but I think they will get f16 as they are EU and a NATO ally in that case f16 will be the easiest way to pass over to them
> Even block 40 or 50 will be quite sufficient for them as most of the NATO countries are trying to sell off their f16 to space out for f35 and being a EU and NATO ally it’s very much possible for Bulgarian airforce to get them and trained over easily
> About eurofighter I think that will be little bit too much for them at the moment as compare to whatever they are flying at the moment
> Thank you



I will agree with you but F-16 from Portugal will have higher operational costs and will be expensive. I think they will consider cost as their primary target that is why I am not dropping any thing out. the decision will be reached till july it is not a long time we will soon know the out come. There is a huge chance for JF-17 here lets wait and watch.

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## Armchair

PAF is stronger today than at any time in the past.

There are 100 JF-17s armed with BVR
almost 80 F-16s armed with AMRAAMs
150 odd Mirages, out of which about 60 are BVR capable with R-Darter and now this is possibly replaced with AMRAAM.
F-7PG has BVR - R-Darter and now possibly replaced with ???

R-Darters in PAF service had 60 km range according to Prasun Sengupta (they were improved from the regular R-Darters). They are being phased out or have already been phased out (???)

*that's a total of nearly 300 BVR capable aircraft!*

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## denel

Armchair said:


> PAF is stronger today than at any time in the past.
> 
> There are 100 JF-17s armed with BVR
> almost 80 F-16s armed with AMRAAMs
> 150 odd Mirages, out of which about 60 are BVR capable with R-Darter and now this is possibly replaced with AMRAAM.
> F-7PG has BVR - R-Darter and now possibly replaced with ???
> 
> R-Darters in PAF service had 60 km range according to Prasun Sengupta (they were improved from the regular R-Darters). They are being phased out or have already been phased out (???)
> 
> *that's a total of nearly 300 BVR capable aircraft!*


Friend there is no confirmation of PGs with R-Darter. This has been noted before as well.
For Mirage there is a thread already and we cannot put it in this bucket; they are antiques and should be excluded from this list. Please refer to the Mirage thread.

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## Armchair

denel said:


> Friend there is no confirmation of PGs with R-Darter. This has been noted before as well.
> For Mirage there is a thread already and we cannot put it in this bucket; they are antiques and should be excluded from this list. Please refer to the Mirage thread.



Prasun Sengupta's site notes that the PGs also had R-Darters installed. Senior posters on this forum including people with insider knowledge also noted the same - that the PGs had BVR. 

@denel, my friend, a BVR is a BVR, whether from a Mirage or an F-16. AMRAAM integration would not be a problem on Mirages as the radar is compatible and the French equipment is not blocked by the US.

Sengupta also notes another interesting fact - PAF F-16s were BVR capable BEFORE the AMRAAMs came - they had Sparrows, but this was not openly admitted. Zia must have been a hell of a good bargainer.

@denel can you confirm the extended range of the PAF R-Darters? Sengupta claims 60km range.


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## denel

Armchair said:


> Prasun Sengupta's site notes that the PGs also had R-Darters installed. Senior posters on this forum including people with insider knowledge also noted the same - that the PGs had BVR.
> 
> @denel, my friend, a BVR is a BVR, whether from a Mirage or an F-16. AMRAAM integration would not be a problem on Mirages as the radar is compatible and the French equipment is not blocked by the US.
> 
> Sengupta also notes another interesting fact - PAF F-16s were BVR capable BEFORE the AMRAAMs came - they had Sparrows, but this was not openly admitted. Zia must have been a hell of a good bargainer.
> 
> @denel can you confirm the extended range of the PAF R-Darters? Sengupta claims 60km range.


Yes it is 60km.

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## Armchair

Off-topic but @denel I've seen some images of a Chinese AAM that looks remarkably like an R-Darter. Do you think the Chinese got a hold of these from the Israelis? I can't find the image just now, but it looked remarkably like an R-Darter.


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## denel

Armchair said:


> Off-topic but @denel I've seen some images of a Chinese AAM that looks remarkably like an R-Darter. Do you think the Chinese got a hold of these from the Israelis? I can't find the image just now, but it looked remarkably like an R-Darter.


Not sure friend. They are cloning a lot of things but always a question of quality not quantity; for example, we have taken apart their manpacks and comms gear - plainly put really poor in terms of functionality and quality and easily breakable; in an heavy EW/ECM would not work but because most countries dont know better they just buy on the looks and paper specs without putting them through a standardised battery of testings including taking them to antartica.

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## Armchair

thank you for the info!


denel said:


> Not sure friend. They are cloning a lot of things but always a question of quality not quantity; for example, we have taken apart their manpacks and comms gear - plainly put really poor in terms of functionality and quality and easily breakable; in an heavy EW/ECM would not work but because most countries dont know better they just buy on the looks and paper specs without putting them through a standardised battery of testings including taking them to antartica.


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## MastanKhan

denel said:


> Not sure friend. They are cloning a lot of things but always a question of quality not quantity; for example, we have taken apart their manpacks and comms gear - plainly put really poor in terms of functionality and quality and easily breakable; in an heavy EW/ECM would not work but because most countries dont know better they just buy on the looks and paper specs without putting them through a standardised battery of testings including taking them to antartica.



Hi,

Thank you for the post---. Pakistani kids and adults live and die by specs---. They are clueless as to what makes the specs work.

They will throw the specs left and right having no understanding of the engineering behind it---.

Poor things---so illiterate about the world of weapons---.

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## Armchair

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thank you for the post---. Pakistani kids and adults live and die by specs---. They are clueless as to what makes the specs work.
> 
> They will throw the specs left and right having no understanding of the engineering behind it---.
> 
> Poor things---so illiterate about the world of weapons---.



I always put the gear I use to field test. I've consistently found that the chinese stuff doesn't always work as advertised, but then you get these gems sometimes. There is a lot of trial and error involved. I remember buying 150 USD night vision and they worked unbelievably well. 

Regarding jet fighters, sadly since we aren't military men, we can only go by specs, as we can't actually go and kick the tires, so to speak.

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## denel

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thank you for the post---. Pakistani kids and adults live and die by specs---. They are clueless as to what makes the specs work.
> 
> They will throw the specs left and right having no understanding of the engineering behind it---.
> 
> Poor things---so illiterate about the world of weapons---.


One thing which was always blatant with chinese RF equipment - filters; just attrocious and never consistent. They barely make the filter specs; expose them to varying temperature and humidity (which the manpacks are sealed off from); they shift off the mark. Even the basic hop is too predictable on the top end units with complete miss on sync - in this capability they are were we were back in 70s with first gen hops; try to send a data packet over it - does not work. These are just basic stuff i am allowed to write; only thing good for them was their casing and colour.



Armchair said:


> I always put the gear I use to field test. I've consistently found that the chinese stuff doesn't always work as advertised, but then you get these gems sometimes. There is a lot of trial and error involved. I remember buying 150 USD night vision and they worked unbelievably well.
> 
> Regarding jet fighters, sadly since we aren't military men, we can only go by specs, as we can't actually go and kick the tires, so to speak.


Yes, never get chinese binoculars or even those made in India . Really bad. My preference is always in i can get my hands of Novosibrsk made equipment; too heavy but precise.

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## Armchair

denel said:


> One thing which was always blatant with chinese RF equipment - filters; just attrocious and never consistent. They barely make the filter specs; expose them to varying temperature and humidity (which the manpacks are sealed off from); they shift off the mark. Even the basic hop is too predictable on the top end units with complete miss on sync - in this capability they are were we were back in 70s with first gen hops; try to send a data packet over it - does not work. These are just basic stuff i am allowed to write; only thing good for them was their casing and colour.
> 
> 
> Yes, never get chinese binoculars or even those made in India . Really bad. My preference is always in i can get my hands of Novosibrsk made equipment; too heavy but precise.



Their binoculars are pretty bad but I did add a small monocular that cost me like 5 dollars. Its fast, easy to carry and gets the basic work done. Most people were blown away by the effectiveness of the 150 dollar NVG I got - gen 1+ and did the job brilliantly!

They are now selling thermals for 200-300 USD!!! Can't wait to try it.

I used to spend a lot of time testing Chinese equipment I use. Some work, some do the job, some are just ridiculous. And their supposedly "high end" stuff somehow is sometimes more expensive than western counterparts, but not necessarily better.

PS: not being a military person I don't really get a lot of opportunity to use my collections. The major thing binoculars were used for were by my then apartment-mates to look at girls down the street or through their window. You don't really need high quality lens for that.

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## fatman17

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/998559920495751168


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## fatman17

F16D Block 52M of Pakistan Air Force.
Currently, its most advance aircraft in South Asian region. There are rumors which suggest that Pakistan is considering option of Surplus F16s from European Market. https://t.co/DFsNa4N9q9

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## fatman17

Congratulations to Flight Cadet @osamafarqaleet of Pakistan Air Force- waving the Pakistani flag at his graduation from the United States Air Force Academy Colorado Springs, USA on May 23, 2018! [emoji1258][emoji1191] We are proud of you! May you be a be a bridge of unity between our nations. https://t.co/f5eCGzaCTA

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## Armchair

Yes, that's what they are sent there for, to become "bridges of unity". This is the core problem in PAF imho.

You need to send diplomats to build such "bridges". Not compromise your national security by creating a block of your military personnel whose ultimate loyalty will be effected by such "bridge building" exercises.

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## litman

Armchair said:


> Yes, that's what they are sent there for, to become "bridges of unity". This is the core problem in PAF imho.
> 
> You need to send diplomats to build such "bridges". Not compromise your national security by creating a block of your military personnel whose ultimate loyalty will be effected by such "bridge building" exercises.


its not only in PAF but in every pakistani department. they always consider USA as boss. the previous PAF chief ot the award from USAF at the time of his retirement.

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## MastanKhan

Armchair said:


> PAF is stronger today than at any time in the past.
> 
> There are 100 JF-17s armed with BVR
> almost 80 F-16s armed with AMRAAMs
> 150 odd Mirages, out of which about 60 are BVR capable with R-Darter and now this is possibly replaced with AMRAAM.
> F-7PG has BVR - R-Darter and now possibly replaced with ???
> 
> R-Darters in PAF service had 60 km range according to Prasun Sengupta (they were improved from the regular R-Darters). They are being phased out or have already been phased out (???)
> 
> *that's a total of nearly 300 BVR capable aircraft!*




Hi,

Off course----but in relation to what---?

It is simple math---Paf has 100 JF17's---so by default they are stronger.

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## Armchair

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Off course----but in relation to what---?
> 
> It is simple math---Paf has 100 JF17's---so by default they are stronger.



Hi MK,

Stronger in relation to the past. also in relation to the 1990s, 2000s, and more recent history, stronger compared to what they were against the IAF, relatively speaking. What seemed to be an irrevocable lead by the IAF, with projected buys of 124 MRCA, petered out. LCA failed to be meaningful. Squadron strength with the IAF has only gone down. 

Meanwhile, PAF now has a national network with a large number of radars and AWACS, and about 300 BVR capable fighters. 

If my speculation that the Mirages can now fire AMRAAMs is correct (and this makes perfect sense for the 500 AMRAAM buy, PAF airspace has some serious capability build up. 

The IAF FLANKERS have very long spool up times, meaning they have to be based further inland, forward airbase usage will not be meaningful for them. MiGs of all shades and varieties are now in poor shape and many are outdated. 

Entering Pakistani airspace at low level for Jaguars, MiG-27s, is going to be very costly. 

PAF does seem quite unassailable and very capable of protecting Pakistani airspace. 

Let us consider the effective force utilization capabilities, using some basic rule of thumb:
*IAF
Aircraft # Availability effective force utilization
MiG-21 244 50% 122
MiG-29 66 60% 40
Mirage 2000 41 80% 33
Sukhoi Su-30 240 60% 144
*
For BVR air combat, IAF only has, at any given time, this total of *239 aircraft *that can meaningfully engage in air combat. 

PAF would obviously have fewer, but I do think that the gap is now smaller than anytime in the recent past.


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## MastanKhan

Armchair said:


> Hi MK,
> 
> Stronger in relation to the past. also in relation to the 1990s, 2000s, and more recent history, stronger compared to what they were against the IAF, relatively speaking. What seemed to be an irrevocable lead by the IAF, with projected buys of 124 MRCA, petered out. LCA failed to be meaningful. Squadron strength with the IAF has only gone down.
> 
> Meanwhile, PAF now has a national network with a large number of radars and AWACS, and about 300 BVR capable fighters.
> 
> If my speculation that the Mirages can now fire AMRAAMs is correct (and this makes perfect sense for the 500 AMRAAM buy, PAF airspace has some serious capability build up.
> 
> The IAF FLANKERS have very long spool up times, meaning they have to be based further inland, forward airbase usage will not be meaningful for them. MiGs of all shades and varieties are now in poor shape and many are outdated.
> 
> Entering Pakistani airspace at low level for Jaguars, MiG-27s, is going to be very costly.
> 
> PAF does seem quite unassailable and very capable of protecting Pakistani airspace.
> 
> Let us consider the effective force utilization capabilities, using some basic rule of thumb:
> *IAF
> Aircraft # Availability effective force utilization
> MiG-21 244 50% 122
> MiG-29 66 60% 40
> Mirage 2000 41 80% 33
> Sukhoi Su-30 240 60% 144
> *
> For BVR air combat, IAF only has, at any given time, this total of *239 aircraft *that can meaningfully engage in air combat.
> 
> PAF would obviously have fewer, but I do think that the gap is now smaller than anytime in the recent past.



Hi,

Modern warfare has proved that inferior aircrafts would be decimated by the superior aircraft---that is one thing you cannot take away from a superior aircraft.

A pilot flying a superior aircraft would be default would be a superior pilot playing on the strengths of his aircraft---.

When the enemy's primary aircraft can carry 4 to six times the number of BVR missiles than yours---have massive jammers---the equation is not the same---.

It would be embarrassing to consider the mirage 3's in any league at all in the offensive role.

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## Armchair

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Modern warfare has proved that inferior aircrafts would be decimated by the superior aircraft---that is one thing you cannot take away from a superior aircraft.
> 
> A pilot flying a superior aircraft would be default would be a superior pilot playing on the strengths of his aircraft---.
> 
> When the enemy's primary aircraft can carry 4 to six times the number of BVR missiles than yours---have massive jammers---the equation is not the same---.
> 
> It would be embarrassing to consider the mirage 3's in any league at all in the offensive role.




You're right. Of course the FLANKER is in a class of its own in offensive counter air. 

BUT

The Mirage and JF-17s will not be engaging in offensive counter air. They will be fighting a defensive battle. One where in fact IAF MiG-21s would not have the legs to have effective impact. 

In the 1990s, PAF had a handful of barely operational F-16s with BVR (Sparrows). In the 2000s, PAF had R-Darters with F-7PG and Mirages, while IAF had a huge, massive lead. In the early 2010s, PAF only had a small number of JF-17s.

IAF FLANKERS, lets assume that for offensive counter air they use 8x BVR and 2x WVR. This is actually being very optimistic of a meaningful loadout. Still, they will face JF-17s with 4x BVRs and F-16s with 6x BVR That's definitely not four to six times the number as you are quoting. 

And IAF is not made up of only FLANKERS, there are legions of MiG-21s, then Mirage 2000s with the range-challenged French BVR. Then there are MiG-29s that have serious limitations in their use of BVRs. 

Old airframes such as Mirage are excellent for interception, where you need fast climb to altitude, a good radar to lock with, and with AMRAAMs, a game changer. 

This is not like WVR dogfights, its a very specific and technical capability. 

But you are right MK, not meaningful for offensive counter air ops.


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## messiach

Interesting.



Armchair said:


> Yes, that's what they are sent there for, to become "bridges of unity". This is the core problem in PAF imho.
> 
> You need to send diplomats to build such "bridges". Not compromise your national security by creating a block of your military personnel whose ultimate loyalty will be effected by such "bridge building" exercises.

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## MastanKhan

Armchair said:


> You're right. Of course the FLANKER is in a class of its own in offensive counter air.
> 
> BUT
> 
> The Mirage and JF-17s will not be engaging in offensive counter air. They will be fighting a defensive battle. One where in fact IAF MiG-21s would not have the legs to have effective impact.
> 
> In the 1990s, PAF had a handful of barely operational F-16s with BVR (Sparrows). In the 2000s, PAF had R-Darters with F-7PG and Mirages, while IAF had a huge, massive lead. In the early 2010s, PAF only had a small number of JF-17s.
> 
> IAF FLANKERS, lets assume that for offensive counter air they use 8x BVR and 2x WVR. This is actually being very optimistic of a meaningful loadout. Still, they will face JF-17s with 4x BVRs and F-16s with 6x BVR That's definitely not four to six times the number as you are quoting.
> 
> And IAF is not made up of only FLANKERS, there are legions of MiG-21s, then Mirage 2000s with the range-challenged French BVR. Then there are MiG-29s that have serious limitations in their use of BVRs.
> 
> Old airframes such as Mirage are excellent for interception, where you need fast climb to altitude, a good radar to lock with, and with AMRAAMs, a game changer.
> 
> This is not like WVR dogfights, its a very specific and technical capability.
> 
> But you are right MK, not meaningful for offensive counter air ops.



Hi,

Paf has no choice but to fight a defensive war---.

Defensive war is for a loser---.

In the past---there was a myth attached with the Paf pilots and muslim warriors---.

That myth has been busted by the americans---.

When you talk of the mirage 3's---you sound like selling the enemy short---please don't---.

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## GriffinsRule

Armchair said:


> You're right. Of course the FLANKER is in a class of its own in offensive counter air.
> 
> BUT
> 
> The Mirage and JF-17s will not be engaging in offensive counter air. They will be fighting a defensive battle. One where in fact IAF MiG-21s would not have the legs to have effective impact.
> 
> In the 1990s, PAF had a handful of barely operational F-16s with BVR (Sparrows). In the 2000s, PAF had R-Darters with F-7PG and Mirages, while IAF had a huge, massive lead. In the early 2010s, PAF only had a small number of JF-17s.
> 
> IAF FLANKERS, lets assume that for offensive counter air they use 8x BVR and 2x WVR. This is actually being very optimistic of a meaningful loadout. Still, they will face JF-17s with 4x BVRs and F-16s with 6x BVR That's definitely not four to six times the number as you are quoting.
> 
> And IAF is not made up of only FLANKERS, there are legions of MiG-21s, then Mirage 2000s with the range-challenged French BVR. Then there are MiG-29s that have serious limitations in their use of BVRs.
> 
> Old airframes such as Mirage are excellent for interception, where you need fast climb to altitude, a good radar to lock with, and with AMRAAMs, a game changer.
> 
> This is not like WVR dogfights, its a very specific and technical capability.
> 
> But you are right MK, not meaningful for offensive counter air ops.




PAF Mirages should not even be counted as a threat to IAF. Maybe they will succeed in shallow attacks on their armored formations etc but that is about it. Unless Mirages in question are -2009, leave them from the equation. And they are not equipped with BVR missiles. Yes their radar might be decent upgrade when considering it dates from the 1990s, it is only speculation that PAF actually has any missiles on them to use at BVR ranges.

And if you are counting the IAF at 60-80% serviceability, you should do the same with PAF. After all, we know we have jets coming in and out of overhauls and servicing just like anyone else, we are not immune to jets that would not be battle ready.

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## CriticalThought

messiach said:


> Interesting.



Welcome back Madam. Nice to see you on the forum.


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## Tank131

Armchair said:


> You're right. Of course the FLANKER is in a class of its own in offensive counter air.
> 
> BUT
> 
> The Mirage and JF-17s will not be engaging in offensive counter air. They will be fighting a defensive battle. One where in fact IAF MiG-21s would not have the legs to have effective impact.
> 
> In the 1990s, PAF had a handful of barely operational F-16s with BVR (Sparrows). In the 2000s, PAF had R-Darters with F-7PG and Mirages, while IAF had a huge, massive lead. In the early 2010s, PAF only had a small number of JF-17s.
> 
> IAF FLANKERS, lets assume that for offensive counter air they use 8x BVR and 2x WVR. This is actually being very optimistic of a meaningful loadout. Still, they will face JF-17s with 4x BVRs and F-16s with 6x BVR That's definitely not four to six times the number as you are quoting.
> 
> And IAF is not made up of only FLANKERS, there are legions of MiG-21s, then Mirage 2000s with the range-challenged French BVR. Then there are MiG-29s that have serious limitations in their use of BVRs.
> 
> Old airframes such as Mirage are excellent for interception, where you need fast climb to altitude, a good radar to lock with, and with AMRAAMs, a game changer.
> 
> This is not like WVR dogfights, its a very specific and technical capability.
> 
> But you are right MK, not meaningful for offensive counter air ops.



You are making strong assumptions regarding the mirage fleets equipment based on rumor amd conjecture of the early 2000s. While the grifo m radar may have had the range to host a BVR missile, there is no definitive proof that PAF ever had R-darter. Furthermore PAF was never sold sparrows for F-16 (despite what Wikipedia reports). The only bvr aircraft in PAF arsenal are the 100 JF-17 and 85 F-16. The mirages are not likely to carry the AMRAAM and im not sute if you expanded on that theory but how did you come up with that conclusion? Now there may be a way for PAF to create BVR capacity among the legacy fleet using datalinks much like erieyr does for gripen. If ZDK and ERIEYE can utilize Link17 to guide missiles then the robust AWAC fleet of 7 (soon to be 10 i believe) could theoretically enable Mirages and F-7 to host BVR missiles in a pinch.


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## Armchair

GriffinsRule said:


> PAF Mirages should not even be counted as a threat to IAF. Maybe they will succeed in shallow attacks on their armored formations etc but that is about it. Unless Mirages in question are -2009, leave them from the equation. And they are not equipped with BVR missiles. Yes their radar might be decent upgrade when considering it dates from the 1990s, it is only speculation that PAF actually has any missiles on them to use at BVR ranges.
> 
> And if you are counting the IAF at 60-80% serviceability, you should do the same with PAF. After all, we know we have jets coming in and out of overhauls and servicing just like anyone else, we are not immune to jets that would not be battle ready.



We will just have to agree to disagree on "PAF having or not having BVR AAMs" on Mirages.
What is obvious though, that if PAF Mirages are wired with R-Darters, or even better, with AMRAAMs, they are a very serious threat.

We will also have to agree to disagree about serviceability. I do believe that given the nature of the IAF fleet, and the PAF fleet, PAF's serviceability is better. This doesn't mean they aren't immune to jets being overhauled or serviced.

Its not speculation alone, many senior forum members have admitted R-darters on this forum. Prasun Sengupta, a well established Indian analyst, also notes this. Not only that, but he writes that the PAF R-Darters have longer ranges - 60 km.

Him along with other sources also note that F-16s originally came with Sparrows. These are my sources. I didn't come up with all this out of my own imagination. 

And I am not sure why AMRAAMs won't be wired in, given Sidewinders are. And now the MAA-1 Piranhas too.

There are numerous sources online that note R-Darters (I guess they are all speculation for some), but let's just say we agree to disagree.

Except for the AMRAAM bit, which is my speculation, as I have stated before on this thread, everything else I have said has been said by senior members on this forum, members known to have a solid reputation on this forum.

I'm not going to go through all the myriad of evidences for the R-Darter, including Indians observing PAF exercises in the 2000s, where they noted that R-darters were being simulated.

Of course the PAF won't admit it because the R-Darter is intertwined with Israel.

Again, I'll let you do your own research and come to your own conclusions. I've presented mine.

@Tank131 please read the above, this should also answer your query.



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Paf has no choice but to fight a defensive war---.
> 
> Defensive war is for a loser---.
> 
> In the past---there was a myth attached with the Paf pilots and muslim warriors---.
> 
> That myth has been busted by the americans---.
> 
> When you talk of the mirage 3's---you sound like selling the enemy short---please don't---.




Hi MK,

Good thoughts but with the presence of layered SAMs on both sides, offensive operations are going to be a bit of a problem. I once read a long paper by a serving PAF officer on the possible utilization of UCAVs. He suggested that a simple UCAV that can penetrate enemy airspace, use precision munition, and return to base, may be the way forward.

This reminds me of something you recently wrote - that when you go for a deep penetration strike, sometimes its best to get the attacking asset stripped of any weapons to counter enemy air assets. I think we were having a conversation about the Osirak strike. 

_So, basically, can we imagine a new form of warfare? Can we think of something beyond what we know from GW1 and GW2?_

Who will meet that challenge? I seriously doubt South Asian airforce personnel of any country can have that open minded breadth of vision to come up with it. I do however expect that from people like yourself. 

Let me share some of my thoughts:

To win an air war against a peer, and that too a peer that is generally superior to you, one has to take advantage of:
1. Disruptive technologies
2. Innovative doctrine

The key disruptive technologies before us are:
1. Jamming
2. Lasers
3. UCAVs

Do UCAVs really have to be super-expensive? There is a paper out there that suggests otherwise. Messiach would probably really like this idea because the paper claims:

1. Because robots don't need to train like humans, they can be built to much lower standards of durability. This means easy to build, lighter weight, and most importantly, considerably lower costs. 
2. Such UCAVs in the Indo-Pak scenario do not need to have satellite bandwidth, they can be used autonomously (like strike UCAVs, basically a reusable cruise missile) or in similar fashion to fox hunting - riders and hunting dogs - the manned fighters being the riders and the UCAVs acting as hunting dogs. 

A host of other ideas... I hope you enjoy:

PAF is not some magical airforce of superheroes, and IAF isn't a banana republic air force. If you look at the formulas for air warfare developed in WWII, quantity has an exponential-like advantage. This isn't Israel vs twiddly arabs. Going on the offensive would be suicidal for PAF, unless yo take advantage of the ideas outlined.

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## MastanKhan

Armchair said:


> We will just have to agree to disagree on "PAF having or not having BVR AAMs" on Mirages.
> What is obvious though, that if PAF Mirages are wired with R-Darters, or even better, with AMRAAMs, they are a very serious threat.
> 
> We will also have to agree to disagree about serviceability. I do believe that given the nature of the IAF fleet, and the PAF fleet, PAF's serviceability is better. This doesn't mean they aren't immune to jets being overhauled or serviced.
> 
> Its not speculation alone, many senior forum members have admitted R-darters on this forum. Prasun Sengupta, a well established Indian analyst, also notes this. Not only that, but he writes that the PAF R-Darters have longer ranges - 60 km.
> 
> Him along with other sources also note that F-16s originally came with Sparrows. These are my sources. I didn't come up with all this out of my own imagination.
> 
> And I am not sure why AMRAAMs won't be wired in, given Sidewinders are. And now the MAA-1 Piranhas too.
> 
> There are numerous sources online that note R-Darters (I guess they are all speculation for some), but let's just say we agree to disagree.
> 
> Except for the AMRAAM bit, which is my speculation, as I have stated before on this thread, everything else I have said has been said by senior members on this forum, members known to have a solid reputation on this forum.
> 
> I'm not going to go through all the myriad of evidences for the R-Darter, including Indians observing PAF exercises in the 2000s, where they noted that R-darters were being simulated.
> 
> Of course the PAF won't admit it because the R-Darter is intertwined with Israel.
> 
> Again, I'll let you do your own research and come to your own conclusions. I've presented mine.
> 
> @Tank131 please read the above, this should also answer your query.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi MK,
> 
> Good thoughts but with the presence of layered SAMs on both sides, offensive operations are going to be a bit of a problem. I once read a long paper by a serving PAF officer on the possible utilization of UCAVs. He suggested that a simple UCAV that can penetrate enemy airspace, use precision munition, and return to base, may be the way forward.
> 
> This reminds me of something you recently wrote - that when you go for a deep penetration strike, sometimes its best to get the attacking asset stripped of any weapons to counter enemy air assets. I think we were having a conversation about the Osirak strike.
> 
> _So, basically, can we imagine a new form of warfare? Can we think of something beyond what we know from GW1 and GW2?_
> 
> Who will meet that challenge? I seriously doubt South Asian airforce personnel of any country can have that open minded breadth of vision to come up with it. I do however expect that from people like yourself.
> 
> Let me share some of my thoughts:
> 
> To win an air war against a peer, and that too a peer that is generally superior to you, one has to take advantage of:
> 1. Disruptive technologies
> 2. Innovative doctrine
> 
> The key disruptive technologies before us are:
> 1. Jamming
> 2. Lasers
> 3. UCAVs
> 
> Do UCAVs really have to be super-expensive? There is a paper out there that suggests otherwise. Messiach would probably really like this idea because the paper claims:
> 
> 1. Because robots don't need to train like humans, they can be built to much lower standards of durability. This means easy to build, lighter weight, and most importantly, considerably lower costs.
> 2. Such UCAVs in the Indo-Pak scenario do not need to have satellite bandwidth, they can be used autonomously (like strike UCAVs, basically a reusable cruise missile) or in similar fashion to fox hunting - riders and hunting dogs - the manned fighters being the riders and the UCAVs acting as hunting dogs.
> 
> A host of other ideas... I hope you enjoy:
> 
> PAF is not some magical airforce of superheroes, and IAF isn't a banana republic air force. If you look at the formulas for air warfare developed in WWII, quantity has an exponential-like advantage. This isn't Israel vs twiddly arabs. Going on the offensive would be suicidal for PAF, unless yo take advantage of the ideas outlined.



Hi,

For some f those very reasons---the flank---ie---the space over the ocean leaves a wide space to conduct offensive strike missions---because you can fly down from pasni without the fear of SAMS---.

Any eneny ships with lrsams are within the range of your ashm's first---you can fight air to air battles on somewhat "equal" grounds without fear of SAMs targetting you upto a certain distance---.

The thing is what if the enemy is able to destroy your primary defensive layers of sams---and with no offensive capability---you cannot divert the war to a different region---.

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## messiach

For a short-while only.


CriticalThought said:


> Welcome back Madam. Nice to see you on the forum.

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## CriticalThought

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> For some f those very reasons---the flank---ie---the space over the ocean leaves a wide space to conduct offensive strike missions---because you can fly down from pasni without the fear of SAMS---.
> 
> Any eneny ships with lrsams are within the range of your ashm's first---you can fight air to air battles on somewhat "equal" grounds without fear of SAMs targetting you upto a certain distance---.
> 
> The thing is what if the enemy is able to destroy your primary defensive layers of sams---and with no offensive capability---you cannot divert the war to a different region---.



India will deploy at least a carrier battle group's strength in the Arabian Sea. And to protect it, they will leave no stone unturned. From space based assets to ship based Sam, it will be a veritable killing field. More than aerial assets, sub surface combatants will have a higher chance on survival.

And what people completely fail to realize is that the next war will be fought with complete American backing to India. I expect America to try to enforce a non nuclear mandate by stationing Arleigh-Burke class ships and shooting down nukes. Then there is the Indian base in Oman to take into account.

All in all, you get a 0 out of 10 in your analysis.


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## ziaulislam

CriticalThought said:


> India will deploy at least a carrier battle group's strength in the Arabian Sea. And to protect it, they will leave no stone unturned. From space based assets to ship based Sam, it will be a veritable killing field. More than aerial assets, sub surface combatants will have a higher chance on survival.
> 
> And what people completely fail to realize is that the next war will be fought with complete American backing to India. I expect America to try to enforce a non nuclear mandate by stationing Arleigh-Burke class ships and shooting down nukes. Then there is the Indian base in Oman to take into account.
> 
> All in all, you get a 0 out of 10 in your analysis.


it would be impossible to shoot a battle blastic missle or all of aircatfts..there aretoo many delivery systems and which side its gpinf to shoot..


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## CriticalThought

ziaulislam said:


> it would be impossible to shoot a battle blastic missle or all of aircatfts..there aretoo many delivery systems and which side its gpinf to shoot..



Sir, it doesn't mean they will not try damage control to the extent possible, and it doesn't mean they won't have the technology to do so. As we increase our capabilities, so does the enemy. I would plan with the expectation of going against the following combatants at least:

India
America
Australia


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## Armchair

CriticalThought said:


> India will deploy at least a carrier battle group's strength in the Arabian Sea. And to protect it, they will leave no stone unturned. From space based assets to ship based Sam, it will be a veritable killing field. More than aerial assets, sub surface combatants will have a higher chance on survival.
> 
> And what people completely fail to realize is that the next war will be fought with complete American backing to India. I expect America to try to enforce a non nuclear mandate by stationing Arleigh-Burke class ships and shooting down nukes. Then there is the Indian base in Oman to take into account.
> 
> All in all, you get a 0 out of 10 in your analysis.



You're giving MK, a legend on PDF 0 out of 10. Handing out these meaningless posts with ad hominems. I notice you've done the same to @gambit and I haven't seen him since. A sad day for PDF because he was a real asset. You should learn to contribute constructively or to keep silent. Learn from your elders.

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## ghazi52

*Glass Squash **court in PAF museum , Karachi.*

*




*


*



*

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## Tank131

The imbalanced nature of the quantity amd quality between IAD and IN is exactly why I have advocated for the existance of a small strategic bomber force for PAF made of H-6K and an expanded ASW aircraft for PN by introducing Y-8Gx6(Q).

They would be used missile trucks and in the H-6Ks case, wouls likely be able to launch strikes using air launched CMs (specifically air launched variants of Babur) on india while sitting deep within Pakistan comfortably behind PAF SAMs and fighters and vectored away from threats by AWACs. Each is capable of carrying 6-8 CMs and could overwhelm IAF Fobs or SAM positions. In conjunction with UCAVs they could be the spear point for PAFs strike endeavors.
The Y-8 Is capable of carrying 4-6 CM-400AKG. At MACH 4-5 they could likely penetrate IN CBG defenses with these missiles.

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## CriticalThought

Armchair said:


> You're giving MK, a legend on PDF 0 out of 10. Handing out these meaningless posts with ad hominems. I notice you've done the same to @gambit and I haven't seen him since. A sad day for PDF because he was a real asset. You should learn to contribute constructively or to keep silent. Learn from your elders.



I am giving him -10 and it will be good riddance as far as MastanKhan is concerned. Now stay on topic.


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## MastanKhan

ziaulislam said:


> it would be impossible to shoot a battle blastic missle or all of aircatfts..there aretoo many delivery systems and which side its gpinf to shoot..



Hi,

if you have a little time---share a scenario---or maybe just a little more detail in what you want to say---.

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## Armchair

Tank131 said:


> The imbalanced nature of the quantity amd quality between IAD and IN is exactly why I have advocated for the existance of a small strategic bomber force for PAF made of H-6K and an expanded ASW aircraft for PN by introducing Y-8Gx6(Q).
> 
> They would be used missile trucks and in the H-6Ks case, wouls likely be able to launch strikes using air launched CMs (specifically air launched variants of Babur) on india while sitting deep within Pakistan comfortably behind PAF SAMs and fighters and vectored away from threats by AWACs. Each is capable of carrying 6-8 CMs and could overwhelm IAF Fobs or SAM positions. In conjunction with UCAVs they could be the spear point for PAFs strike endeavors.
> The Y-8 Is capable of carrying 4-6 CM-400AKG. At MACH 4-5 they could likely penetrate IN CBG defenses with these missiles.



Interesting idea, but PAF would already have its hands full against a larger, more technologically advanced enemy. To surrender scarce resources for "line backers" AND invest in protecting them, that's going to be quite a problem, IMHO. 

You could just launch those same cruise missiles from the ground. But keep thinking, we can only get better the more we think about issues constructively.


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## Mir Shahzain

On May 28 2010, Pakistan successfully launched production of avionics and other important gadgets for JF-17 Thunder fighter jets at Pakistan Aeronautical Complex #PAC #Kamra, #Pakistan.
#JF17 Thunder is developed by #Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation under a JV btw Pakistan and#China

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## Tank131

Armchair said:


> Interesting idea, but PAF would already have its hands full against a larger, more technologically advanced enemy. To surrender scarce resources for "line backers" AND invest in protecting them, that's going to be quite a problem, IMHO.
> 
> You could just launch those same cruise missiles from the ground. But keep thinking, we can only get better the more we think about issues constructively.



The problem of launching Babur from the ground is mostly range. A ground launched Babur has a range of 700km. Now the issue is u cant exactly keep that on the boarderas it will be taken out by IAF air strike or IA artillery. So most likely, the reach of the missilenwill be more in the league of 500km into India (likely sitting around 200km inside Pakistan for protection). The advantage of developing a air launched Babur is the huge leap in range whem launching such a weapon from altitude (likely in the ramge of 1000-1400km) While Ra'ad is mean mostly for launch from fighters, Babur is too large for such delivery. The reason it is worth spending money on say 6-10 bombers that could be equipped with Babur is that they become force multipliers on a massive scale.

They can sit deep inside Pakistan, behind layers of fighters, SAMs and umder the protective eyes of AWACS and protect fighters from being taken out over Pakistan by S400s and its 400km range (allowing it to hit aircraft deep inside Pakistan). It will also preserve the fighters by limiting the number of IAF Fighters they will have to face. By launching CM strikes on FOBs of India, they will push the IAF fighters back to bases deeper inside India. They will likely take out a number of fighters on the ground as well. IAF will have to fly further to get to the frontline and will have to fly further to get home. This decreases time spent in the theater and increases reliance on aerial tankers which themselves would become targets of PAF SAMs and fighters (looking at a future JF-17 Blk 3 with PL-15). All this hampers IAFs ability to turn over fighters amd decreases the number of sorties they can launch limiting the number of fighter and strike aircraft the IAF can send against the PAF. 2 Bombers with 6-8 missiles could likely overrun an IAF FOB or SAM battery.

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## Armchair

Well, instead of spending all that money on bombers, and pilots, pilot training, maintenance,.... why not develop a longer range CM? I've heard they have managed to extend the Babur's range already.


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## fatman17

Sir Asim Suleman who did Simulated Attack on USN Carrier and Buzzed on it's deck during "Inspired Alert 1995".
When USS CVN-72 commander said it's defences can't be breached, this guy proved him wrong by mocking Exocet attack via his Mirage. https://t.co/xM9awZqwga

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## Tank131

Armchair said:


> Well, instead of spending all that money on bombers, and pilots, pilot training, maintenance,.... why not develop a longer range CM? I've heard they have managed to extend the Babur's range already.



Sure... Only why haven't they? When Pakistan can make 2700km ballistic missilez, why can they increase the ramge of babur to 1000+km. My only guess is they have no capacity to do so (no access to capable rocket motors), or a lack of motivation to do so.

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## ziaulislam

Tank131 said:


> The imbalanced nature of the quantity amd quality between IAD and IN is exactly why I have advocated for the existance of a small strategic bomber force for PAF made of H-6K and an expanded ASW aircraft for PN by introducing Y-8Gx6(Q).
> 
> They would be used missile trucks and in the H-6Ks case, wouls likely be able to launch strikes using air launched CMs (specifically air launched variants of Babur) on india while sitting deep within Pakistan comfortably behind PAF SAMs and fighters and vectored away from threats by AWACs. Each is capable of carrying 6-8 CMs and could overwhelm IAF Fobs or SAM positions. In conjunction with UCAVs they could be the spear point for PAFs strike endeavors.
> The Y-8 Is capable of carrying 4-6 CM-400AKG. At MACH 4-5 they could likely penetrate IN CBG defenses with these missiles.


will be flying ducks with lack of escort which PAF doesnt has(just 176 4th gen fighters vs 500+ of IAF/IN)

aand hence investment in land based systems


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## MastanKhan

Armchair said:


> Well, instead of spending all that money on bombers, and pilots, pilot training, maintenance,.... why not develop a longer range CM? I've heard they have managed to extend the Babur's range already.



Hi,

CM sites are fixed---their direction is predictable---.

Air launched is the best option---

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## Armchair

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> CM sites are fixed---their direction is predictable---.
> 
> Air launched is the best option---



Interesting point.



Tank131 said:


> Sure... Only why haven't they? When Pakistan can make 2700km ballistic missilez, why can they increase the ramge of babur to 1000+km. My only guess is they have no capacity to do so (no access to capable rocket motors), or a lack of motivation to do so.



We don't know the classified ranges or projects. We can't say "they haven't" with any level of certainty.

Nor do we know about what their requirements are, war doctrine is... i.e. do they think they need it?


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## django

@Hell hound @Zibago @war&peace @Maarkhoor 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1002600821949902848

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## war&peace

django said:


> @Hell hound @Zibago @war&peace @Maarkhoor
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1002600821949902848


That was an excellent feat. Though I guess these smart *** Yankees will have plugged that loophole in their defences but I'm sure PAF guys may have some tricks up their sleeves if a need ever arise.

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## Hell hound

django said:


> @Hell hound @Zibago @war&peace @Maarkhoor
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1002600821949902848


Yep I remember reading about it few years ago they flew too close to the waves and when they pop up and flew past the carrier to demonstrate that the mock attack was success the carrier commander was so astonished that everyone could look it on his face.

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## Tps43

django said:


> @Hell hound @Zibago @war&peace @Maarkhoor
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1002600821949902848


This man had attitude problem when he was air marshal.

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## django

tps77 said:


> This man had attitude problem when he was air marshal.


Perhaps,,,,, never the less he was a heck of a pilot.Kudos

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## Tps43

django said:


> Perhaps,,,,, never the less he was a heck of a pilot.Kudos


True

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## Sulman Badshah

Painting was gifted by USS Abraham Lincoln administration


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## CriticalThought

Sulman Badshah said:


> Painting was gifted by USS Abraham Lincoln administration



@django @Hell hound do we know the security detail employed for the CBG? Was an AEWACS present when this feat was pulled off?

Edit: the exercise was conducted in the 1990s. Radar technology has since evolved.


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## Hell hound

CriticalThought said:


> @django @Hell hound do we know the security detail employed for the CBG? Was an AEWACS present when this feat was pulled off?
> 
> Edit: the exercise was conducted in the 1990s. Radar technology has since evolved.


In one of the "Inspired Alert" exercises, the PAF pilots were supposed to try to get "as close to the aircraft carrier" as possible without detection, and accomplish other tasks. USN was tasked to detect Pakistani intruders and USN fighters (F-14s) were to intercept them. Both sides had complete freedom in selecting their strategy. The USN was very confident that the PAF Mirages would not be able to get too close, mainly because their RADARs and other equipment were superior to anything Pakistan had. To their amazement, not only did 2 Mirage fighters get "as close as possible", they even flew low beside the aircraft carrier, "buzzing" the deck.

They stayed undetected by flying dangerously low over the sea under RADAR cover, and by creating diversions and fooling them into thinking the main intruders were coming from a different direction (other Mirages, I think). By the time they realized that 2 Mirages had made it close, it was too late to interecept them. This forced even senior USN pilots to react.
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/worldarmedforcesforum/paf-vs-usn-exercise-t48154.html

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## fatman17

F16 Fighting Falcons in Pakistan Air Force have completed the land mark of 100,000 successful Flight hours!
F16s in Pakistan are operational from 3.5 decade and so far only 9 crashes have occurred making one of successful safety record in Aviation History. https://t.co/ac0m3xha3I

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## Tank131

ziaulislam said:


> will be flying ducks with lack of escort which PAF doesnt has(just 176 4th gen fighters vs 500+ of IAF/IN)
> 
> aand hence investment in land based systems



They will be 400km away from the front behind layers of SAMs and Fighters. Vectored by AWACs with ranges of greater than 400km as well as ground radars.Plus, this doesnt seem to be a concern for AWACS and Tankers. This talk of escorts and sitting ducks is convenient when they dont want to think of alternatives to fighter only solutions for the issues PAF faces.

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## Windjammer

fatman17 said:


> F16 Fighting Falcons in Pakistan Air Force have completed the land mark of 100,000 successful Flight hours!
> F16s in Pakistan are operational from 3.5 decade and so far only 9 crashes have occurred making one of successful safety record in Aviation History. https://t.co/ac0m3xha3I
> View attachment 478066


Wrong information, PAF in fact achieved this milestone over a decade earlier.

*F-16 Fighting Falcon News*
*Pakistani F-16s reach 100,000 accident free flight hours*

*October 4, 2005* (by Asif Shamim) -
*A three-member delegation of Pratt & Whitney called on Air Chief Marshal Kaleem Saadat, Chief of the Air Staff Pakistan Air Force at Air Headquarters to present a plaque to the Chief of the Air Staff in recognition of flying the F-16, for over 100,000 accident-free flight hours.
*

Lloyd W. "Fig" Newton, executive vice president, presented a plaque to the Chief of the Air Staff in recognition of flying the F-16, for over 100,000 accident-free flight hours.

They also commended the maintenance, quality control and flight safety standards of the PAF, which made this achievement possible.

Retired Gen. Lloyd Newton, along with Gen. (R) William J Begert, Vice President and Warren Boley, Vice President, remained with Air Chief Marshal Kaleem Sadaat, Chief of Air Staff for some time and discussed matters pertaining to mutual and professional interest.

http://www.f-16.net/f-16-news-article1468.html

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## Shabi1

Something which gets overlooked alot that I would like to bring to attention.

S400 detection range is roughly 400km (370km to be precise). It is a real threat but nothing is 100% effective and against a fighter that is severely less, which is why they can still be taken out by salvos of ranged or anti radiation weapons. And detection can be avoided by using terrain advantage.

Actual threat to aircraft from the S400 will be from it's 9M96/9M96E2 (max range 120km) and 9M96E (max range 40km) missiles which can engage maneuvering targets. The higher ranged missile are for fixed trajectory targets. Both these missiles by the time the aircraft is in it's range, the aircraft will also be able to fire it's standoff weapons or anti radiation missiles.

And then there is curvature of the Earth, one of many factors to limit long range missile range.
https://www.foi.se/report-search/pdf?fileName=D:\ReportSearch\Files\e1539f62-de49-421b-93ad-f4e960e0eacc.pdf

"One long-range weapon that has attracted considerable attention in Sweden is Russia’s S-400 SAM system. Its nominal range of 400 km means that the S-400 could theoretically reach Swedish territory. However, the actual range of a SAM is limited by a number of factors. An obvious factor is the curvature of the earth. Figure 11.1 shows that at a distance of 400 km, an aircraft needs to be at an altitude of 12 000 metres to be visible from the ground. Conversely, anobserver needs to be at an altitude of 12 000 meters to be able to detect an object on the ground from this distance. Another limiting factor is the flight time of the SAM. It takes about ten minutes for a SAM to travel 400 km, which is enough time for a fighter aircraft to fly more than 100 km in any direction. Consequently, a longrange SAM would need to receive real-time updates of the target’s position and velocity in order to adjust its trajectory. This would require airborne or surface-based sensors to track the target and transmit data to the missile via a data link. All of this requires line of sight between the target and the sensors, as well as between the data-link transmitters and the missile. Terrain masking poses an obvious challenge for detecting and tracking targets at low altitude. Furthermore, the missile has a limited supply of velocity, which would be quickly drained as the target manoeuvres. All of this means that while a long-range SAM system such as the S-400 would certainly be a threat at a very long range to an airliner cruising at 36 000 feet, the actual effective range against a fighter at low altitude could well be under 20 km, depending on the terrain. Figure 1. Required altitude for visibility of objects at a distance. Hence, long-range SAMs constitute only a limited and to some extent manageable threat to fighter aircraft. For a SAM system to reach its full potential, it needs to be an integrated part of a network of sensors, command and control functions, and weapons. To be effective at long range, airborne sensors are required. Thus, the threat posed by a long-range SAM system in Kaliningrad or on Gotland, for example, cannot be described as a circle on the map with the nominal range as the radius. An aircraft taking off from an airbase in Sweden could not be shot down by SAMs based on the other side of the Baltic shortly after it left the runway"





PAF routinely practices 500(152m)-1000ft (304m) low altitude flight and from interviews of pilots I gather the routine is 500ft.

So remaining undetected and taking out the S400 threat is not a impossibility, it will be difficult and risky but then again it's what our fly boys train day and night for.

And then there are terrain hugging cruise missiles in Pakistan's inventory for a saturated attack.

So things are not grim for PAF.

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## MastanKhan

Shabi1 said:


> Something which gets overlooked alot that I would like to bring to attention.
> 
> S400 detection range is roughly 400km (370km to be precise). It is a real threat but nothing is 100% effective and against a fighter that is severely less, which is why they can still be taken out by salvos of ranged or anti radiation weapons. And detection can be avoided by using terrain advantage.
> 
> Actual threat to aircraft from the S400 will be from it's 9M96/9M96E2 (max range 120km) and 9M96E (max range 40km) missiles which can engage maneuvering targets. The higher ranged missile are for fixed trajectory targets. Both these missiles by the time the aircraft is in it's range, the aircraft will also be able to fire it's standoff weapons or anti radiation missiles.
> 
> And then there is curvature of the Earth, one of many factors to limit long range missile range.
> https://www.foi.se/report-search/pdf?fileName=D:\ReportSearch\Files\e1539f62-de49-421b-93ad-f4e960e0eacc.pdf
> 
> "One long-range weapon that has attracted considerable attention in Sweden is Russia’s S-400 SAM system. Its nominal range of 400 km means that the S-400 could theoretically reach Swedish territory. However, the actual range of a SAM is limited by a number of factors. An obvious factor is the curvature of the earth. Figure 11.1 shows that at a distance of 400 km, an aircraft needs to be at an altitude of 12 000 metres to be visible from the ground. Conversely, anobserver needs to be at an altitude of 12 000 meters to be able to detect an object on the ground from this distance. Another limiting factor is the flight time of the SAM. It takes about ten minutes for a SAM to travel 400 km, which is enough time for a fighter aircraft to fly more than 100 km in any direction. Consequently, a longrange SAM would need to receive real-time updates of the target’s position and velocity in order to adjust its trajectory. This would require airborne or surface-based sensors to track the target and transmit data to the missile via a data link. All of this requires line of sight between the target and the sensors, as well as between the data-link transmitters and the missile. Terrain masking poses an obvious challenge for detecting and tracking targets at low altitude. Furthermore, the missile has a limited supply of velocity, which would be quickly drained as the target manoeuvres. All of this means that while a long-range SAM system such as the S-400 would certainly be a threat at a very long range to an airliner cruising at 36 000 feet, the actual effective range against a fighter at low altitude could well be under 20 km, depending on the terrain. Figure 1. Required altitude for visibility of objects at a distance. Hence, long-range SAMs constitute only a limited and to some extent manageable threat to fighter aircraft. For a SAM system to reach its full potential, it needs to be an integrated part of a network of sensors, command and control functions, and weapons. To be effective at long range, airborne sensors are required. Thus, the threat posed by a long-range SAM system in Kaliningrad or on Gotland, for example, cannot be described as a circle on the map with the nominal range as the radius. An aircraft taking off from an airbase in Sweden could not be shot down by SAMs based on the other side of the Baltic shortly after it left the runway"
> View attachment 478084
> 
> 
> PAF routinely practices 500(152m)-1000ft (304m) low altitude flight and from interviews of pilots I gather the routine is 500ft.
> 
> So remaining undetected and taking out the S400 threat is not a impossibility, it will be difficult and risky but then again it's what our fly boys train day and night for.
> 
> And then there are terrain hugging cruise missiles in Pakistan's inventory for a saturated attack.
> 
> So things are not grim for PAF.



Hi,

Oh---gee---thanks for the post---.

There was a reason for me regarding the naval strike missions and JH7 A aircraft---.

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## ziaulislam

Tank131 said:


> They will be 400km away from the front behind layers of SAMs and Fighters. Vectored by AWACs with ranges of greater than 400km as well as ground radars.Plus, this doesnt seem to be a concern for AWACS and Tankers. This talk of escorts and sitting ducks is convenient when they dont want to think of alternatives to fighter only solutions for the issues PAF faces.


a simple rocket boaster and some more fuel in current babur can be done if you are going to use it for crusie missles!!


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## Tank131

ziaulislam said:


> a simple rocket boaster and some more fuel in current babur can be done if you are going to use it for crusie missles!!



Then why haven't they done so? If they can then they should. CM barrage of FOBs and S400 positions of IAF will be the most effective way for PAF to protect the longevity of its forces and decrease attrition rates in a full tilt conflict.


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## MastanKhan

ziaulislam said:


> will be flying ducks with lack of escort which PAF doesnt has(just 176 4th gen fighters vs 500+ of IAF/IN)
> 
> aand hence investment in land based systems



Hi,

You are just talk---I have asked you to write a scenario---but you are clueless to write anything---because you know nothing---.

Read @Signalian 's---maybe you will learn something rather than making a fool of yourself over and over---.

Today at 6:03 AM#4963 here is another and then there is a post by @tank131

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## war&peace

tps77 said:


> This man had attitude problem when he was air marshal.


Well, we all have attitude problems...



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> if you have a little time---share a scenario---or maybe just a little more detail in what you want to say---.


I read his post and couldn't make any sense out of it...a fifth grader can state his opinion clearer than him.

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## CriticalThought

Shabi1 said:


> Something which gets overlooked alot that I would like to bring to attention.
> 
> S400 detection range is roughly 400km (370km to be precise). It is a real threat but nothing is 100% effective and against a fighter that is severely less, which is why they can still be taken out by salvos of ranged or anti radiation weapons. And detection can be avoided by using terrain advantage.
> 
> Actual threat to aircraft from the S400 will be from it's 9M96/9M96E2 (max range 120km) and 9M96E (max range 40km) missiles which can engage maneuvering targets. The higher ranged missile are for fixed trajectory targets. Both these missiles by the time the aircraft is in it's range, the aircraft will also be able to fire it's standoff weapons or anti radiation missiles.
> 
> And then there is curvature of the Earth, one of many factors to limit long range missile range.
> https://www.foi.se/report-search/pdf?fileName=D:\ReportSearch\Files\e1539f62-de49-421b-93ad-f4e960e0eacc.pdf
> 
> "One long-range weapon that has attracted considerable attention in Sweden is Russia’s S-400 SAM system. Its nominal range of 400 km means that the S-400 could theoretically reach Swedish territory. However, the actual range of a SAM is limited by a number of factors. An obvious factor is the curvature of the earth. Figure 11.1 shows that at a distance of 400 km, an aircraft needs to be at an altitude of 12 000 metres to be visible from the ground. Conversely, anobserver needs to be at an altitude of 12 000 meters to be able to detect an object on the ground from this distance. Another limiting factor is the flight time of the SAM. It takes about ten minutes for a SAM to travel 400 km, which is enough time for a fighter aircraft to fly more than 100 km in any direction. Consequently, a longrange SAM would need to receive real-time updates of the target’s position and velocity in order to adjust its trajectory. This would require airborne or surface-based sensors to track the target and transmit data to the missile via a data link. All of this requires line of sight between the target and the sensors, as well as between the data-link transmitters and the missile. Terrain masking poses an obvious challenge for detecting and tracking targets at low altitude. Furthermore, the missile has a limited supply of velocity, which would be quickly drained as the target manoeuvres. All of this means that while a long-range SAM system such as the S-400 would certainly be a threat at a very long range to an airliner cruising at 36 000 feet, the actual effective range against a fighter at low altitude could well be under 20 km, depending on the terrain. Figure 1. Required altitude for visibility of objects at a distance. Hence, long-range SAMs constitute only a limited and to some extent manageable threat to fighter aircraft. For a SAM system to reach its full potential, it needs to be an integrated part of a network of sensors, command and control functions, and weapons. To be effective at long range, airborne sensors are required. Thus, the threat posed by a long-range SAM system in Kaliningrad or on Gotland, for example, cannot be described as a circle on the map with the nominal range as the radius. An aircraft taking off from an airbase in Sweden could not be shot down by SAMs based on the other side of the Baltic shortly after it left the runway"
> View attachment 478084
> 
> 
> PAF routinely practices 500(152m)-1000ft (304m) low altitude flight and from interviews of pilots I gather the routine is 500ft.
> 
> So remaining undetected and taking out the S400 threat is not a impossibility, it will be difficult and risky but then again it's what our fly boys train day and night for.
> 
> And then there are terrain hugging cruise missiles in Pakistan's inventory for a saturated attack.
> 
> So things are not grim for PAF.



There are some significant errors here:

https://fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/airdef/s-400.htm



> The Fakel Machine Building Design Bureau has developed two new missiles for _Triumf_.
> 
> 
> The "big" missile [designation otherwise unknown] has a range of up to 400 km and will be able to engage "over- the-horizon [OTH]" targets using a new seeker head developed by Almaz Central Design Bureau. This seeker can operate in both a semiactive and active mode, with the seeker switched to a search mode on ground command and homing on targets independently. Targets for this missile include airborne early warning and control aircraft as well as jammers.
> The 9M96 missile is designed to destroy aircraft and air- delivered weapons at ranges in excess of 120 km. The missile is small-- considerably lighter than the ZUR 48N6Ye used in the S-300PMU1 systems and the _Favorit_. The missile is equipped with an active homing head and has an estimated single shot kill probability of 0.9 for manned aircraft and 0.8 for unmanned maneuvering aircraft. a gas-dynamic control system enables the 9M96 missile to maneuver at altitudes of up to 35 km at forces of over 20g, which permits engagment of non- strategic ballistic missiles. A mockup of the missile was set up at an Athens arms exhibition in October 1998. One 9M96 modification will become the basic long-range weapon of Air Force combat aircraft, and may become the standardized missile for air defense SAM systems, ship-launched air defense missile systems, and fighter aircraft.



So basically, the larger missile does not need any line of sight communication with the controller.

That said, the article is correct in saying that S-400 can be avoided at 400 km by fighter jets. But again it is providing only partial information. S-400 will not exist in a vacuum. It will be part of a multi-layered air defence that will cover all approaches and ranges.

In war, unpredictability is everything. If you can limit the approach of the enemy, you have already put him at a significant disadvantage. And S-400 will create that disadvantage.

Then, there are significant presumptions that you make. Yes, terrain can be used for evasion, but will terrain be available for evasion? For example, in the plains of Punjab? And will the enemy be completely incognizant of the terrain advantage you want to use?

Yes, saturation attacks can overcome any system, but will the enemy sit around letting you perform saturation attacks on him? What happens when 1000 Brahmos missiles are launched at Pakistani air defences and FOBs, given that we have very little strategic depth?

You are trivializing a complex situation, and you should disassociate yourself from the likes of MastanKhan who is literally acting like cheering squad, jumping on anything that seems to support his fantasies.


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## Army research

Indo pak war will be blood bath for both airforces, this will be a war in which bothsides are entrenched against each other since their creation in 1947, know that in world war 1 artillery acquired the most amount of kills when because it was fired on fixed locations, fast forward to the 21st century with cruise missiles cluster bombs guided bombs ballistic missiles , against immovable airbases.
The airforce which can reposition and construct airbases on a day's notice in the middle of nowhere will be the triumphant one

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## ziaulislam

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> You are just talk---I have asked you to write a scenario---but you are clueless to write anything---because you know nothing---.
> 
> Read @Signalian 's---maybe you will learn something rather than making a fool of yourself over and over---.
> 
> Today at 6:03 AM#4963 here is another and then there is a post by @tank131


i come here to make my self a fool and have some fun....


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## MastanKhan

ziaulislam said:


> i come here to make my self a fool and have some fun....




Hi,

Nothing to be proud of---a person would be rather ashamed and learn to better themselves---.

But how pathetic is it that posters are trying their best to raise the level of discussion on the board---and you are trying your best to bring it down---.



tps77 said:


> This man had attitude problem when he was air marshal.



Hi,

Off course he had an attitude problem---. He got a life time hard on by taking on the US nuclear aircraft carrier---.

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## Mrc

MastanKhan said:


> He got a life time hard on by taking on the US nuclear aircraft carrier---.




Wouldn't you???? Ultimate sport hunting... no bigger prize exists on earth....



I am reading some of scenarios and that not in discussion above among honorable members....

I want to say one thing ..


For me there is only one scenario in next war....
Playing on your strength.... and manipulating enemy deficits....

Pak response to war (preemptively or reacting) shud be a barrage of cruise missiles (in hundreds) tipped with tactical nuclear devices (India currently lacks tactical nukes and cruise missiles that can deliver them)... _on all air bases._.. and all land based nuclear sites.... to take them out of equation straight away...

If India retaliates with strategic nukes and ballistic missiles..(only choices they have). they will have to face complete MAD scenario....


There will be no war between 2 nuclear states which is non nuclear... or remain so...
So to me all conventional scenarios are obsolete and waste of time....


Now if you ask me how India shud fight. A war.... I can also give you a scenario.... but that's not my side ... so not my duty


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## Tps43

war&peace said:


> Well, we all have attitude problems...
> 
> 
> I read his post and couldn't make any sense out of it...a fifth grader can state his opinion clearer than him.


No he had extreme attitude problem which was not good for service and especially when u had all administration of paf under ur command . 
I never saw him shaking hand or even asking "how are u ?" From airmen and jco's .
Thank God CAS didn't recommended extension for him.



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Nothing to be proud of---a person would be rather ashamed and learn to better themselves---.
> 
> But how pathetic is it that posters are trying their best to raise the level of discussion on the board---and you are trying your best to bring it down---.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Off course he had an attitude problem---. He got a life time hard on by taking on the US nuclear aircraft carrier---.


No actually he was a nice person till he was Air Commodore but when he became AVM his personality was completely changed. Only allah knows what happened inside his heart.

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## fatman17

Pakistan is looking to buy Hongdu 15 LIFT air craft from China. This trainer can also be employed for ground strike role as it can carry variety of ground munitions as well as short range air to air missiles. Timeline and exact number of units to be bought is yet to be known. https://t.co/qkE4mugPeW

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## Tps43

fatman17 said:


> Pakistan is looking to buy Hongdu 15 LIFT air craft from China. This trainer can also be employed for ground strike role as it can carry variety of ground munitions as well as short range air to air missiles. Timeline and exact number of units to be bought is yet to be known. https://t.co/qkE4mugPeW
> View attachment 478283
> View attachment 478284


Aren't Yak 130 better then these and what will happen to those k 8's?

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## ghazi52

F 16 Fighting Falcons in Pakistan Air Force have completed the landmark of 100,000 successful Flight hours! F16s in Pakistan are operational from 3.5 decade and so far only 9 crashes have occurred making one of successful safety record in Aviation History.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1002864809841430528

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## araz

fatman17 said:


> Pakistan is looking to buy Hongdu 15 LIFT air craft from China. This trainer can also be employed for ground strike role as it can carry variety of ground munitions as well as short range air to air missiles. Timeline and exact number of units to be bought is yet to be known. https://t.co/qkE4mugPeW
> View attachment 478283
> View attachment 478284


Why now specially when the JFT B is available. Can the pilots not train on it?
A



ghazi52 said:


> F 16 Fighting Falcons in Pakistan Air Force have completed the landmark of 100,000 successful Flight hours! F16s in Pakistan are operational from 3.5 decade and so far only 9 crashes have occurred making one of successful safety record in Aviation History.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1002864809841430528


Already posted by Fatman17 and rebutted by Windjammer. Apparently we completed 100k hrs on 16s much earlier.
A

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## ziaulislam

araz said:


> Why now specially when the JFT B is available. Can the pilots not train on it?
> A
> 
> 
> Already posted by Fatman17 and rebutted by Windjammer. Apparently we completed 100k hrs on 16s much earlier.
> A


probably jf-17 isnt cost effective in that role


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## araz

ziaulislam said:


> probably jf-17 isnt cost effective in that role


Possibly but a new platform for training at this point does not make sense to me at least.
Are we envisaging a ground attack role for it as well.
A


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## Thorough Pro

Some basic math. 100,000 hours / 35 years = 2857 hours per year
2857 hours / 40 planes = 71 hours per plane per year (looks way too low with even 40 planes, increase the jet numbers to current strength and you'll end up with approx. 35 hours per plane per year, which is unbelievable.





ghazi52 said:


> F 16 Fighting Falcons in Pakistan Air Force have completed the landmark of 100,000 successful Flight hours! F16s in Pakistan are operational from 3.5 decade and so far only 9 crashes have occurred making one of successful safety record in Aviation History.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1002864809841430528

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## TOPGUN

araz said:


> Possibly but a new platform for training at this point does not make sense to me at least.
> Are we envisaging a ground attack role for it as well.
> A





fatman17 said:


> Pakistan is looking to buy Hongdu 15 LIFT air craft from China. This trainer can also be employed for ground strike role as it can carry variety of ground munitions as well as short range air to air missiles. Timeline and exact number of units to be bought is yet to be known. https://t.co/qkE4mugPeW
> View attachment 478283
> View attachment 478284



fatman17, bro is this news conformed ? and I am thinking if bought like you said would be used for ground strike roles more then training .


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## syed_yusuf

fatman17 said:


> Pakistan is looking to buy Hongdu 15 LIFT air craft from China. This trainer can also be employed for ground strike role as it can carry variety of ground munitions as well as short range air to air missiles. Timeline and exact number of units to be bought is yet to be known. https://t.co/qkE4mugPeW
> View attachment 478283
> View attachment 478284


Good decision, I hope they go for L15b. Avery potent LIFT and multi role platform

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## MastanKhan

Thorough Pro said:


> Some basic math. 100,000 hours / 35 years = 2857 hours per year
> 2857 hours / 40 planes = 71 hours per plane per year (looks way too low with even 40 planes, increase the jet numbers to current strength and you'll end up with approx. 35 hours per plane per year, which is unbelievable.



Hi,

A realistic number should be between 5.5 to 6 times that number---.

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## Shabi1

fatman17 said:


> Pakistan is looking to buy Hongdu 15 LIFT air craft from China. This trainer can also be employed for ground strike role as it can carry variety of ground munitions as well as short range air to air missiles. Timeline and exact number of units to be bought is yet to be known. https://t.co/qkE4mugPeW
> View attachment 478283
> View attachment 478284



Chengdu marketing brochures are also listing JF-17B as a LIFT option with multirole capabilities. Wouldnt it make more sense to employ them for LIFT role as PAF will be inducting few JF-17Bs till it waits for JF-17 Blk-3 production.

For CAS support the JF-17B will be more capable and we're also replenishing our Gunship fleet and enhancing the UCAV capability.

PAF has a habit of evaluating everything to keep itself updated on developments or what to incorporate on local platforms, we heard similar news for the Korean T-50 and Czech L-39. For training a replacement of the T-37s via TAI Hurkus (since it has jet like characteristics) seems more plausible.



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Oh---gee---thanks for the post---.
> 
> There was a reason for me regarding the naval strike missions and JH7 A aircraft---.



PAF does need a delivery truck for missiles and bombs. And I too think it should have bought the Mirage F-1 and JH-7 but it's too late for both of these as non of these are in further development and I suspect JH-7 is out of production as well since JH-7 B was supposed to come out in 2015 but no updates on any developments, seems China will replace them with J-11/15/16s. They've even got got a J-16D variant similar to F-18 Grawler.

PAF could consider Chinese flankers or either H-6K/Y-9 (ASW variant) with fighter escort. But again all wishlists.

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## Gomig-21

fatman17 said:


> Pakistan is looking to buy Hongdu 15 LIFT air craft from China. This trainer can also be employed for ground strike role as it can carry variety of ground munitions as well as short range air to air missiles. Timeline and exact number of units to be bought is yet to be known. https://t.co/qkE4mugPeW
> View attachment 478283
> View attachment 478284



Hey @pakistanipower , looks like you owe our friend @Zarvan an apology after going at him hard for this news that he couldn't talk about (for some strange reason but that's neither here nor there) and give him a big hug and a kiss and apologize and tell him you're sorry in sincere humility, my friend. 

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/pakistan-buying-jets-from-china-old-story-or-new-development.561553/

Looks like @Zarvan was onto something after all..

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## MastanKhan

Shabi1 said:


> PAF does need a delivery truck for missiles and bombs. And I too think it should have bought the Mirage F-1 and JH-7 but it's too late for both of these as non of these are in further development and I suspect JH-7 is out of production as well since JH-7 B was supposed to come out in 2015 but no updates on any developments, seems China will replace them with J-11/15/16s. They've even got got a J-16D variant similar to F-18 Grawler.
> 
> PAF could consider Chinese flankers or either H-6K/Y-9 (ASW variant) with fighter escort. But again all wishlists.



Hi,

Modern technology has done wonders in upgrading older aircraft for a different utility function---.

In diversifying their utility with modern upgrades and electronics---they have become the perfect platforms for launching standoff weapons from a distance of 100 miles and beyond---or acting as BVR trucks for future air dominance battles.

A modern radar has limitations in how far it can see---. To look out of your envelope of influence you have awacs---and other surveillance aircraft that are flying on the fringes of your regional territory---. If they fly out too far---they become vulnerable---if they send a naval flotilla---that becomes vulnerable to your stand off AShM's---.

The strike capability of the JH7A type aircraft can do wonders for pakistan and give it control over the ocean---. The enemy will never put its naval flotilla in the region that can be targetted from 250 miles away.

@Signalian @Tank131 @Khafee and then myself have written about it extensively here amongst many others---.

Always remember---why can't anyone defeat the US---because no one can reach its mainland---.

If you cannot reach the heartland of the enemy thru aircraft air strikes---we might as well pack it and make peace---.

Mumbai is the Heart / Liver / Kidneys of the enemy---. One major strike---and the capitol will start running out of the country---never to come back---.

That is why---we need to wage a war from our position of strength---and that is a conventional war---.

We can get a sqdrn of JH7A's from the current chinese inventory---and get a second sqdrn in the shop for total upgrade with the latest available EW package---.

Once you get the JH7A in your inventory and your pilots start flying it---then you can literally understand the difference between a .308 sniper rifle and a Barret .50 anti material / anti personal rifle.

Understanding the utility and strength of a weapons system on its own merits is tantamount to a new awakening---.

The JH7A type aircraft is a different kind and type of aircraft---. Its utility cannot be measured by comparing it to the utility of an F16 or a JF17---.

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## GriffinsRule

Thorough Pro said:


> Some basic math. 100,000 hours / 35 years = 2857 hours per year
> 2857 hours / 40 planes = 71 hours per plane per year (looks way too low with even 40 planes, increase the jet numbers to current strength and you'll end up with approx. 35 hours per plane per year, which is unbelievable.



Not even accounting for the fact that the tweet is complete bullshit there is something really wrong with your basic analysis man. First off, we didn't have 40 aircraft operational since 1986 when the first of the 9 F-16s was lost (8 since PAF achieved the 100,000 accident free hours).

As Windjammer had posted earlier, the news piece states that on October 4, 2005 a delegation of Pratt & Whitney presented a plaque to the Chief of the Air Staff in recognition of flying the F-16, for over *100,000 accident-free* flight hours. The bold part is important here ... last F-16 accident prior to 2005 happened in October of 1994. So that is just 11 years or operations with 32 F-16s. That comes to around 285 per airframe a year, not far below the US average of 300 hours a year. That including the fact that during the Pressler Amendment years of 1989 through 1994, PAF F-16 fleet was severely affected with spares shortages that impacted flying operations. So all in all, not too bad.

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## LKJ86

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Modern technology has done wonders in upgrading older aircraft for a different utility function---.
> 
> In diversifying their utility with modern upgrades and electronics---they have become the perfect platforms for launching standoff weapons from a distance of 100 miles and beyond---or acting as BVR trucks for future air dominance battles.
> 
> A modern radar has limitations in how far it can see---. To look out of your envelope of influence you have awacs---and other surveillance aircraft that are flying on the fringes of your regional territory---. If they fly out too far---they become vulnerable---if they send a naval flotilla---that becomes vulnerable to your stand off AShM's---.
> 
> The strike capability of the JH7A type aircraft can do wonders for pakistan and give it control over the ocean---. The enemy will never put its naval flotilla in the region that can be targetted from 250 miles away.
> 
> @Signalian @Tank131 @Khafee and then myself have written about it extensively here amongst many others---.
> 
> Always remember---why can't anyone defeat the US---because no one can reach its mainland---.
> 
> If you cannot reach the heartland of the enemy thru aircraft air strikes---we might as well pack it and make peace---.
> 
> Mumbai is the Heart / Liver / Kidneys of the enemy---. One major strike---and the capitol will start running out of the country---never to come back---.
> 
> That is why---we need to wage a war from our position of strength---and that is a conventional war---.
> 
> We can get a sqdrn of JH7A's from the current chinese inventory---and get a second sqdrn in the shop for total upgrade with the latest available EW package---.
> 
> Once you get the JH7A in your inventory and your pilots start flying it---then you can literally understand the difference between a .308 sniper rifle and a Barret .50 sniper rifle.
> 
> Understanding the utility and strength of a weapons system on its own merits is tantamount to a new awakening---.
> 
> The JH7A type aircraft is a different kind and type of aircraft---. Its utility cannot be measured by comparing it to the utility of an F16 or a JF17---.

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## Shabi1

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Modern technology has done wonders in upgrading older aircraft for a different utility function---.
> 
> In diversifying their utility with modern upgrades and electronics---they have become the perfect platforms for launching standoff weapons from a distance of 100 miles and beyond---or acting as BVR trucks for future air dominance battles.
> 
> A modern radar has limitations in how far it can see---. To look out of your envelope of influence you have awacs---and other surveillance aircraft that are flying on the fringes of your regional territory---. If they fly out too far---they become vulnerable---if they send a naval flotilla---that becomes vulnerable to your stand off AShM's---.
> 
> The strike capability of the JH7A type aircraft can do wonders for pakistan and give it control over the ocean---. The enemy will never put its naval flotilla in the region that can be targetted from 250 miles away.
> 
> @Signalian @Tank131 @Khafee and then myself have written about it extensively here amongst many others---.
> 
> Always remember---why can't anyone defeat the US---because no one can reach its mainland---.
> 
> If you cannot reach the heartland of the enemy thru aircraft air strikes---we might as well pack it and make peace---.
> 
> Mumbai is the Heart / Liver / Kidneys of the enemy---. One major strike---and the capitol will start running out of the country---never to come back---.
> 
> That is why---we need to wage a war from our position of strength---and that is a conventional war---.
> 
> We can get a sqdrn of JH7A's from the current chinese inventory---and get a second sqdrn in the shop for total upgrade with the latest available EW package---.
> 
> Once you get the JH7A in your inventory and your pilots start flying it---then you can literally understand the difference between a .308 sniper rifle and a Barret .50 anti material / anti personal rifle.
> 
> Understanding the utility and strength of a weapons system on its own merits is tantamount to a new awakening---.
> 
> The JH7A type aircraft is a different kind and type of aircraft---. Its utility cannot be measured by comparing it to the utility of an F16 or a JF17---.



I agree with you, JH-7 will be very useful for PAF and the benefit to cost ratio is very favorable as well. But despite it's extensive use for maritime don't know why China hasn't revealed any new variants or developments. I do remember when FBC-1 was trialed by PAF their complaint was it was under powered and availability was a problem because back then production rate was low, 6 per year. It was also pitched to Iran but don't know their reasons. Since then they came out with the improved JH-7A but we didnt get any PAF updates after that.

Got a new update from a Chinese source on the J-31, there was lack of new developments on this platform suggesting it was put on the back burner as confusion on intended customers but got the reason. The third prototype will be larger and it's being delayed because of engine availability. They are waiting for the WS-13E/RD-93MA to be available which would happen somewhere in 2019. So this project is till in development and not being shelved.


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## Ultima Thule

Shabi1 said:


> I agree with you, JH-7 will be very useful for PAF and the benefit to cost ratio is very favorable as well. But despite it's extensive use for maritime don't know why China hasn't revealed any new variants or developments. I do remember when FBC-1 was trialed by PAF their complaint was it was under powered and availability was a problem because back then production rate was low, 6 per year. It was also pitched to Iran but don't know their reasons. Since then they came out with the improved JH-7A but we didnt get any PAF updates after that.
> 
> Got a new update from a Chinese source on the J-31, there was lack of new developments on this platform suggesting it was put on the back burner as confusion on intended customers but got the reason. The third prototype will be larger and it's being delayed because of engine availability. They are waiting for the WS-13E/RD-93MA to be available which would happen somewhere in 2019. So this project is till in development and not being shelved.


But JH-7 uses WS-9 which is based on British engine @Shabi1


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## Shabi1

pakistanipower said:


> But JH-7 uses WS-9 which is based on British engine @Shabi1


Yes true, the British engines it's based on had a good reliability but I'm talking of a long time ago perhaps 2001 PAF back then was looking for a multirole fighter. They would have looked at it from a air to air combat role and not from the maritime strike role angle that we are talking about now. The Mirages back then would have been freshly getting their ROSE upgrades so they might have been thought to be enough for PAF strike needs.

This jet is perfectly suited for the strike role. Don't know why this option wasn't revisited. Perhaps post 9/11 PAF got too hyped up about additional F-16s and JF-17 went so well they didn't look at other specialist options more seriously. Another reason could be that stand off cruise missiles other than Exocet (Mirage) and Harpoon (P-3C, F-16) been inducted in PAF recently so back then the concept of a missile truck didn't dawn on anyone. But these are just guesses, really have no clue why.

Regardless of the reasons Mirage F-1 and JH-7 are two platforms PAF missed out on.


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## Ultima Thule

Shabi1 said:


> Yes true, the British engines it's based on had a good reliability but I'm talking of a long time ago perhaps 2001 PAF back then was looking for a multirole fighter. They would have looked at it from a air to air combat role and not from the maritime strike role angle that we are talking about now. The Mirages back then would have been freshly getting their ROSE upgrades so they might have been thought to be enough for PAF strike needs.
> 
> This jet is perfectly suited for the strike role. Don't know why this option wasn't revisited. Perhaps post 9/11 PAF got too hyped up about additional F-16s and JF-17 went so well they didn't look at other specialist options more seriously. Another reason could be that stand off cruise missiles other than Exocet (Mirage) and Harpoon (P-3C, F-16) been inducted in PAF recently so back then the concept of a missile truck didn't dawn on anyone. But these are just guesses, really have no clue why.
> 
> Regardless of the reasons Mirage F-1 and JH-7 are two platforms PAF missed out on.


If PAF/PN purchases JH-7 it would be stand of missile launcher rather then a mere bomb truck, espeacially in the Maritime attack @Shabi1 and as for engine before the emergence of JH-7A/B, JH-7 uses British SPY Engine @Shabi1


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## fatman17

Gomig-21 said:


> Hey @pakistanipower , looks like you owe our friend @Zarvan an apology after going at him hard for this news that he couldn't talk about (for some strange reason but that's neither here nor there) and give him a big hug and a kiss and apologize and tell him you're sorry in sincere humility, my friend.
> 
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/pakistan-buying-jets-from-china-old-story-or-new-development.561553/
> 
> Looks like @Zarvan was onto something after all.. [emoji38]


Here's my take. After the Chinese failed in their attempt to sell the Z10, and Pakistan opted for the turkish T129, Pakistan had to please their Chinese benefactors by showing interest in the L15.

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## fatman17

TOPGUN said:


> fatman17, bro is this news conformed ? and I am thinking if bought like you said would be used for ground strike roles more then training .


Multi role aircraft. Presently at evaluation stage.

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## fatman17

araz said:


> Why now specially when the JFT B is available. Can the pilots not train on it?
> A
> 
> 
> Already posted by Fatman17 and rebutted by Windjammer. Apparently we completed 100k hrs on 16s much earlier.
> A


More likely for CAS / COIN role.

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## fatman17

tps77 said:


> Aren't Yak 130 better then these and what will happen to those k 8's?


K8s will continue with their training role as it's potential for CAS was limited, and the L15 is a good option. YAK130 could be a option but not sure if the Russian s would sell at this stage in our relationship.

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## fatman17

Windjammer said:


> Wrong information, PAF in fact achieved this milestone over a decade earlier.
> 
> *F-16 Fighting Falcon News*
> *Pakistani F-16s reach 100,000 accident free flight hours*
> 
> *October 4, 2005* (by Asif Shamim) -
> *A three-member delegation of Pratt & Whitney called on Air Chief Marshal Kaleem Saadat, Chief of the Air Staff Pakistan Air Force at Air Headquarters to present a plaque to the Chief of the Air Staff in recognition of flying the F-16, for over 100,000 accident-free flight hours.
> *
> 
> Lloyd W. "Fig" Newton, executive vice president, presented a plaque to the Chief of the Air Staff in recognition of flying the F-16, for over 100,000 accident-free flight hours.
> 
> They also commended the maintenance, quality control and flight safety standards of the PAF, which made this achievement possible.
> 
> Retired Gen. Lloyd Newton, along with Gen. (R) William J Begert, Vice President and Warren Boley, Vice President, remained with Air Chief Marshal Kaleem Sadaat, Chief of Air Staff for some time and discussed matters pertaining to mutual and professional interest.
> 
> http://www.f-16.net/f-16-news-article1468.html



I was thinking about that but just wasn't sure

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## ziaulislam

Shabi1 said:


> I agree with you, JH-7 will be very useful for PAF and the benefit to cost ratio is very favorable as well. But despite it's extensive use for maritime don't know why China hasn't revealed any new variants or developments. I do remember when FBC-1 was trialed by PAF their complaint was it was under powered and availability was a problem because back then production rate was low, 6 per year. It was also pitched to Iran but don't know their reasons. Since then they came out with the improved JH-7A but we didnt get any PAF updates after that.
> 
> Got a new update from a Chinese source on the J-31, there was lack of new developments on this platform suggesting it was put on the back burner as confusion on intended customers but got the reason. The third prototype will be larger and it's being delayed because of engine availability. They are waiting for the WS-13E/RD-93MA to be available which would happen somewhere in 2019. So this project is till in development and not being shelved.


any idea on rd 93ma specs and will it be license manufacturing or off the shelf
difference between rd 93 ma and ws 13 e


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## Shabi1

ziaulislam said:


> any idea on rd 93ma specs and will it be license manufacturing or off the shelf
> difference between rd 93 ma and ws 13 e



From a Chinese source. Both engines are very similar if not identical, Russia and China assisting each other for the WS-13E and RD-93MA/RD-33MA with two way flow of expertise, Chinese have made some head ways or gotten access to technology the Russians lacked before. Engine stuff is not my expertise so didn't understood or can recall the components and the jargons. Its supposed to have a major improvement in extended service life and and interval between overhauls comparable with western equivalents. These engines will also have significant weight reductions from the previous versions.

According to google searches thrust should be between 93-100kn. Pakistan can directly buy from Russia or China. So far no official specs of JF-17 blk-3 out but speculations are for RD-93MA from Russia.

Chinese are also developing IR low observable saw tooth exhaust nozzles similar to the ones on the F-35. WS-13E will likely have this modification since it's going on the J-31.

Russia will use the RD-33MA on their latest Mig-35s, it's going to be amongst their most high end products so a intelligent guess that they should definitely incorporate the IR reduction technology.

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## Tps43

fatman17 said:


> K8s will continue with their training role as it's potential for CAS was limited, and the L15 is a good option. YAK130 could be a option but not sure if the Russian s would sell at this stage in our relationship.


Maybe K8 takes place of T 37 in academy and 1 FCU gets and AJT sqn gets L 15 ?

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## araz

tps77 said:


> Maybe K8 takes place of T 37 in academy and 1 FCU gets and AJT sqn gets L 15 ?


I cant help but feel that the PAF Top brass never went in for K8 wholeheartedly. Look at the number of years vs the number of units procured. It ppints to issues which have not been discussed. I wonder why?
Any ideas @ Oscar, @Bilal Khan (Quwa) or @TaimiKhan.
A

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## Tps43

araz said:


> I cant help but feel that the PAF Top brass never went in for K8 wholeheartedly. Look at the number of years vs the number of units procured. It ppints to issues which have not been discussed. I wonder why?
> A


Same here , I feel something is missing here but the thing which comes in my mind , why arent T 37 getting retirement ? K 8 was supposed to be its replacement , Wasnt that the case ?


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## Zarvan

fatman17 said:


> Pakistan is looking to buy Hongdu 15 LIFT air craft from China. This trainer can also be employed for ground strike role as it can carry variety of ground munitions as well as short range air to air missiles. Timeline and exact number of units to be bought is yet to be known. https://t.co/qkE4mugPeW
> View attachment 478283
> View attachment 478284


Yes this was the news @Waglakon


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## Armchair

fatman17 said:


> More likely for CAS / COIN role.



Or maybe its a money making scheme that will help certain people have mansions in Europe and Swiss bank accounts. Or a "gift" from a retiring senior officer.



araz said:


> I cant help but feel that the PAF Top brass never went in for K8 wholeheartedly. Look at the number of years vs the number of units procured. It ppints to issues which have not been discussed. I wonder why?
> Any ideas @ Oscar, @Bilal Khan (Quwa) or @TaimiKhan.
> A



Maybe no money to be made so no need for K-8. One needs the right equipment to get the right bribe.


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## Zarvan

pakistanipower said:


> But JH-7 uses WS-9 which is based on British engine @Shabi1


The news of L-15 is what I was talking about 
@New World @Darth Vader @araz @wanglaokan


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## New World

Zarvan said:


> The news of L-15 is what I was talking about
> @New World @Darth Vader @araz @wanglaokan


dual engine trainer means a dual engine aircraft will follow soon?


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## denel

tps77 said:


> Same here , I feel something is missing here but the thing which comes in my mind , why arent T 37 getting retirement ? K 8 was supposed to be its replacement , Wasnt that the case ?


Exactly the point, there are too many mixtures of platforms on the training side; 2 engine vs 1 engine. T-37s are long gone and serve no purpose; when K8 is there, why have 2 plus the headaches of spare parts on two fronts.



Zarvan said:


> The news of L-15 is what I was talking about
> @New World @Darth Vader @araz @wanglaokan


Frankly i see no reason for this purchase. Instead it would have been better spent getting a dedicate replacement for Mirage for deep strike. There is no rationale if we think of it given that there will be jf-17b for training purpose which can easily be used as well or worse case jl9 which has a lot of commonality with 7pgs. L15 have no track record behind them as well.
Anyway, just a very confusing story from a road map prespective.

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## Tps43

denel said:


> Exactly the point, there are too many mixtures of platforms on the training side; 2 engine vs 1 engine. T-37s are long gone and serve no purpose; when K8 is there, why have 2 plus the headaches of spare parts on two fronts.
> 
> 
> Frankly i see no reason for this purchase. Instead it would have been better spent getting a dedicate replacement for Mirage for deep strike. There is no rationale if we think of it given that there will be jf-17b for training purpose which can easily be used as well or worse case jl9 which has a lot of commonality with 7pgs. L15 have no track record behind them as well.
> Anyway, just a very confusing story from a road map prespective.


To be frank Paf is hiding something from us .

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## Zarvan

New World said:


> dual engine trainer means a dual engine aircraft will follow soon?


Well those who know this kind of stuff say that is the obvious step


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## ziaulislam

denel said:


> Exactly the point, there are too many mixtures of platforms on the training side; 2 engine vs 1 engine. T-37s are long gone and serve no purpose; when K8 is there, why have 2 plus the headaches of spare parts on two fronts.
> 
> 
> Frankly i see no reason for this purchase. Instead it would have been better spent getting a dedicate replacement for Mirage for deep strike. There is no rationale if we think of it given that there will be jf-17b for training purpose which can easily be used as well or worse case jl9 which has a lot of commonality with 7pgs. L15 have no track record behind them as well.
> Anyway, just a very confusing story from a road map prespective.


if life time cost is lower than it does make sense


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## denel

ziaulislam said:


> if life time cost is lower than it does make sense


true but there is a factor called obsolesence. by collecting T-37s from hand me outs reflects a bad decision in my view and reflect a policy not to promote your own development aircraft like K8.

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## araz

New World said:


> dual engine trainer means a dual engine aircraft will follow soon?


Not necessarily. Most good trainers nowadays are dual engined to be more safe in case of engine failure.
A

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## Armchair

Wasn't the K-8 share of 15% sold? If memory serves me right...


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## khanasifm

Too many rumours from last so many years nothing announced yet so premature to say what is happening


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## denel

araz said:


> Not necessarily. Most good trainers nowadays are dualengined to be more sqfe in case of engine failure.
> A


No not really; many are going for Pilatus or super tucanos which give better comparative performance to T-37s.

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## MastanKhan

Shabi1 said:


> I agree with you, JH-7 will be very useful for PAF and the benefit to cost ratio is very favorable as well. But despite it's extensive use for maritime don't know why China hasn't revealed any new variants or developments. I do remember when FBC-1 was trialed by PAF their complaint was it was under powered and availability was a problem because back then production rate was low, 6 per year. It was also pitched to Iran but don't know their reasons. Since then they came out with the improved JH-7A but we didnt get any PAF updates after that.
> 
> Got a new update from a Chinese source on the J-31, there was lack of new developments on this platform suggesting it was put on the back burner as confusion on intended customers but got the reason. The third prototype will be larger and it's being delayed because of engine availability. They are waiting for the WS-13E/RD-93MA to be available which would happen somewhere in 2019. So this project is till in development and not being shelved.



Hi,

We all get carried away in the newer is better concept---. That is what is happening in china---and the same thing is happening in the US---A10 vs F35.

It is not that the military does not want the older aircraft---it is the vested interests that control the supply chain---.

If the chinese and the US stuck with the older aircraft---the aircraft industry would go bonkers---.

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## New World

Zarvan said:


> Well those who know this kind of stuff say that is the obvious step


so, the thing which will follow will have only one seat. otherwise there is no sense of L-15.




araz said:


> Not necessarily. Most good trainers nowadays are dual engined to be more safe in case of engine failure.
> A



sir, i know that most good trainers have dual engine, but PAF already have lots of trainer and JF-17b is the new addition.


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## Tank131

The JH-7A suffered from people comparing it to Flankers, F-16, and the like. It is not a true multirole aircraft nor is it an air superiority fighter. What it is, is a missile truck with great range and payload and a giant nose. If you look at its specs, it has similar range to a Su 30 (3700km) with slightly better payload (9000kg vs 8000kg). While it only has 9 hard points, it has 2 additional stations under the intakes which are dedicated for pods/sensors.Designed for low level flight and terrain avoidance this jet was meant to fly in low under radar level and fire its missiles in a barrage and flee.

If PAF selectef it for strike use or more ideally, for naval strike, it could be customized into a very potent platform. Ideally basing any such acquisition around new avionics (ideally the AESA IRST and avionics from J-16 or J-11D). It can be Fitted with 4 C-802A/2 CM 400AKG/ or 2 RA'AD all while still carrying a centerline tank 2 bvr and 2 wvr missiles. These would be monsters for IN to deal with. With the AESA ranged radar and AWAC support, they will see the IN fighters long before being in any danger themselves and my (with PL-15) get the first 2 shots on them. Equipped with HMS and PL-10 HOBS missiles as well and much of its deficiencies in maneuverability will also be covered (not that this is a aircraft that should be dogfighting).

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## MastanKhan

Tank131 said:


> The JH-7A suffered from people comparing it to Flankers, F-16, and the like. It is not a true multirole aircraft nor is it an air superiority fighter. What it is, is a missile truck with great range and payload and a giant nose. If you look at its specs, it has similar range to a Su 30 (3700km) with slightly better payload (9000kg vs 8000kg). While it only has 9 hard points, it has 2 additional stations under the intakes which are dedicated for pods/sensors.Designed for low level flight and terrain avoidance this jet was meant to fly in low under radar level and fire its missiles in a barrage and flee.
> 
> If PAF selectef it for strike use or more ideally, for naval strike, it could be customized into a very potent platform. Ideally basing any such acquisition around new avionics (ideally the AESA IRST and avionics from J-16 or J-11D). It can be Fitted with 4 C-802A/2 CM 400AKG/ or 2 RA'AD all while still carrying a centerline tank 2 bvr and 2 wvr missiles. These would be monsters for IN to deal with. With the AESA ranged radar and AWAC support, they will see the IN fighters long before being in any danger themselves and my (with PL-15) get the first 2 shots on them. Equipped with HMS and PL-10 HOBS missiles as well and much of its deficiencies in maneuverability will also be covered (not that this is a aircraft that should be dogfighting).



@Armchair enjoy the read of the above post---.

Hi,

Youngman---I am excited--. Thank you.

It is not what the machine can do---it is what you can make the machine do.

It is all about your ability and capability---mindset and understanding---a utilitarian approach of knowing and understanding the strengths.

The usage of the F16's had brought in a very negative effect in the mental growth of the future Paf pilots---and that shows of very well when they are unable to assess and analyze an aircraft utility based on its design principals and not the operational principals of the F16's---.

The mental growth of the Paf pilot stagnated with the dependence on the F16's---. They visualized everything thru the prizm of the F16---and that has been disastrous---.

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## GriffinsRule

PAF is not hiding anything viz-a-viz K-8 and T-37. The simple fact of the matter is the sanctions on China of the Garrett engine delayed its production until they found a suitable replacement. By then, PAF had put its fleet to T-37s through a structural enhancement program and later got basically free T-37s from Turkey with lots of spares and airframe life.
As a poor country and always cash strapped for new acquisitions, it made sense to use the T-37 fleet as long as it is viable. Why retire a working aircraft with plenty of life prematurely? K-8s have been steadily increasing in numbers and given how well it has sold overseas, PAF decision to go slow on its induction seems to have had no negative impact on sales as China seems to have done just fine in that realm.

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## mzeeshanfahd

fatman17 said:


> Here's my take. After the Chinese failed in their attempt to sell the Z10, and Pakistan opted for the turkish T129, Pakistan had to please their Chinese benefactors by showing interest in the L15.


why not j series .....


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## BHarwana

JF-17 on the cover of FDS Magazine

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## Armchair

A modern LIFT has an advantage that no other aircraft has - it can mimic the control dynamics and flight profile of various aircraft it is programmed to. This could help lower the flight hours on F-16s, JF-17, Su-35s or J-20s. 

With a low CPFH and long service lives, they can really boost an airforce. Just thinking aloud on why the decision could make sense for PAF.

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## ghazi52

*AhmAd IbrAhim*‏ @AhmAdTipu7
PAF and IAF pilots with USAF colleagues after completion of course in US. Standing far left is PAF pilot Saleem Baig, who shot down IAF hunter over Peshawar & Gnat over Srinagar. Standing far right is IAF pilot Tejwant Singh who was shot down while flying a Mig21FL by PAF Sabre

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## alikazmi007

ghazi52 said:


> *AhmAd IbrAhim*‏ @AhmAdTipu7
> PAF and IAF pilots with USAF colleagues after completion of course in US. Standing far left is PAF pilot Saleem Baig, who shot down IAF hunter over Peshawar & Gnat over Srinagar. Standing far right is IAF pilot Tejwant Singh who was shot down while flying a Mig21FL by PAF Sabre




Just to piggy back on your post.....

from http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Kochi/Honour-eludes-a-war-hero/article16462527.ece

"That was the case until a few years ago when a retired PAF officer, *Wing Commander Salim Mirza Baig*, who was in the thick of action in 1971, revealed in a personal war account that the Hunter flown by Muralidharan was among the two Indian fighter aircraft brought down by him in separate air battles in the war. According to Wing Commander Baig’s version of the *battle over Peshawar*, he admires the Hunter he took on, calling it a ‘tough nut to crack’ and conclusively says that the pilot was killed in air combat."

"The second aircraft brought down by Wing Commander Baig was a Gnat flown by Flying Officer Nirmal Jit Singh Sekhon, who took on six marauding Sabres *over Srinagar* before being gunned down. Sekhon was posthumously decorated with the Param Vir Chakra, the IAF’s only Param Vir Chakra till date. “Even as the time limit is said to be standing in way of a belated honour to the war hero, there’s precedence to the contrary,” says Mr. Nair."

Flying Officer KP Muralidharan






Flying Officer Nirmal Jit Singh Sekhon, Param Vir Chakra

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## fatman17

PAF NGF Concept

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## Sinnerman108

fatman17 said:


> PAF NGF Concept
> View attachment 479049



Hmm

Where did you get this from boss ?


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## Armchair

fatman17 said:


> PAF NGF Concept
> View attachment 479049




A stealthy, twin engined F-16! What better plan than that to replace F-16s?

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## LKJ86

Armchair said:


> A stealthy, twin engined F-16! What better plan than that to replace F-16s?


"A stealthy, twin engined F-16!"??????

F-35 should be called "a stealthy F-16".


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## Armchair

LKJ86 said:


> "A stealthy, twin engined F-16!"??????
> 
> F-35 should be called "a stealthy F-16".



No, actually if you study the matter a bit more, the F-35 is not, nor was it designed to be a stealthy F-16.

And if you are alluding to the J-31, its not nearly as maneuverable as the F-35, let alone comparisons with the F-16.


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## Deltaviper

Lots of PAF activity over Lahore before sehri today. It's a little unusual... Did anyone else notice?


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## fatman17

Second prototype of dual seat version JF-17 "B" with more composites materials and advance avionics is undergoing flight tests.
PC: strategical and tactical military affairs. https://t.co/gLIsoshhMJ

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## syed_yusuf

It seems that JFT twin seat carry more internal fuel compare to that of single seat. 

Is that a correct assessment?

If green skin are fuel cells that taking a swag one can say that it carries close to 3000kg of internal fuel ???


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## Trango Towers

syed_yusuf said:


> It seems that JFT twin seat carry more internal fuel compare to that of single seat.
> 
> Is that a correct assessment?
> 
> If green skin are fuel cells that taking a swag one can say that it carries close to 3000kg of internal fuel ???


Fuel cells???? What???


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## Aamir Hussain

Not fuel cells. But IMHO composite panels.


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## CriticalThought

Aamir Hussain said:


> Not fuel cells. But IMHO composite panels.



The yellow and green coatings you see are simply Zinc Chromate primer which is used as anti-corrosion agent. There doesn't have to be a correlation between certain colors and composite materials.

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## fatman17

Jf17b (PT02) with three drop tanks.
Jf17 Thunder has secured half dozen export orders ever since its Twin seater version is developed. https://t.co/IFZHpFAd3a

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## araz

fatman17 said:


> Jf17b (PT02) with three drop tanks.
> Jf17 Thunder has secured half dozen export orders ever since its Twin seater version is developed. https://t.co/IFZHpFAd3a
> View attachment 479494


AHalf a dozen new orders, that is interesting. Is it 6 specimen or 6 lots of planes. Who is ordering? Also proves not to have ordered a twin seater before was perhaps ill thought out and short sighted.
A

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## khanasifm

fatman17 said:


> Jf17b (PT02) with three drop tanks.
> Jf17 Thunder has secured half dozen export orders ever since its Twin seater version is developed. https://t.co/IFZHpFAd3a
> View attachment 479494



??
So 6 aircraft b model ordered or 6 new customers order placed ?

And what is the basis of this statement ? 

2 customers are already known including Nigeria


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## khanasifm

Someone claiming on twitter but who knows what’s the reality 

Myanmar and Nigeria are known customers.
Two more from Gulf region, one from Caucasus region and one more from Africa 

Gulf ??
Caucasus is probably Azri ??
Africa ?? Senegal [emoji1211] ?? Speculations I think ??

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## araz

khanasifm said:


> Someone claiming on twitter but who knows what’s the reality
> 
> Myanmar and Nigeria are known customers.
> Two more from Gulf region, one from Caucasus region and one more from Africa
> 
> Gulf ??
> Caucasus is probably Azri ??
> Africa ?? Senegal [emoji1211] ?? Speculations I think ??


Senegal was in the news so a good opening. Azerbaijan was still evaluating the plane. There was news of interest from Malaysia but that is preliminary. Gulf states???. Qatar and Bahrain? Or the land of Saud has been leaned on? Interesting times ahead.
A

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## Raider 21

araz said:


> Senegal was in the news so a good opening. Azerbaijan was still evaluating the plane. There was news of interest from Malaysia but that is preliminary. Gulf states???. Qatar and *Bahrain*? Or the land of Saud has been leaned on? Interesting times ahead.
> A


Bahrain is a definite no for now as they're in pursuit of getting new F-16s and are looking at more Hawks (source: ex-PAF pilots who are Hawk IPs). Qatar is happy with Strike Eagles, Typhoons and Rafales and maybe Hawks might join the inventory as well.

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## araz

Knuckles said:


> Bahrain is a definite no for now as they're in pursuit of getting new F-16s and are looking at more Hawks (source: ex-PAF pilots who are Hawk IPs). Qatar is happy with Strike Eagles, Typhoons and Rafales and maybe Hawks might join the inventory as well.


So any ideas about the possible middle Eastern customer. 
A


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## mosu

Any one knows what's going on I see at least 4 mirages or pg one f16 making round and chasing each other upon my village for last 5 minutes I live 8 kilometers from hala city of sindh


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## fatman17

khanasifm said:


> ??
> So 6 aircraft b model ordered or 6 new customers order placed ?
> 
> And what is the basis of this statement ?
> 
> 2 customers are already known including Nigeria


Go to link


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## fatman17

araz said:


> So any ideas about the possible middle Eastern customer.
> A


Sirjee East Asian and African

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## araz

fatman17 said:


> Sirjee East Asian and African


Thank you understood.
A

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## fatman17

Just in.
Both Jf17 Thunder & Super Mushshaq of Pakistan Air Force will be flying in #Radom air show on 25-26 Aug 2018 (Poland) . Air show will be held to celebrate 100th birthday of Polish Air Force. https://t.co/blG7pVgWqB


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## Windjammer



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## fatman17

Thunder brothers flying in Formation.
Jf17A and Jf17B. https://t.co/Jt92OMa1QG

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## fatman17

The JF-17B 02 prototype flew for the first time on December 7, 2017. Currently the 01 prototype (17-601) is conducting test flights at PAC.
- Last Updated 6/9/18


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## khanasifm

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 479672



Compared to mirage with ejection seat inclined at 13 degree or so both jf and f-16 inclined at 30 degree which suppose to help pilot with g forced

???

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## Shabi1

Has anyone noticed one of the antennas below the nose on JF-17B #2 is different from the one on the other one.

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## Armchair

araz said:


> Thank you understood.
> A



Maybe sometimes its better not to say anything until the deal is done. There are host of countries, agencies, etc that would try tooth and nail to ensure JF-17s are not exported anywhere. There are host of intelligence agencies that would do the same. 

There just maybe too much information being leaked. While this is a lot of fun for us here, it is detrimental to the national interest of Pakistan and China. For instance, they don't need hard facts. Just leads. So if RUMINT suggests country X is interested in plane Y, they have a lead and then can go in to investigate. Given the technologies available to the usual suspects, this second step would be easy to do. 

Sometimes we imagine that certain countries are acting independently in their own self-interest. But we don't know that certain countries and groups of countries, act together because of ideological reasons. For instance, I was once talking to a disgruntled spy of a country down under, who admitted said country was spying on Saudi Arabia, sending agents there. Said country down under had no interests, no geopolitical machinations, no military in Saudi Arabia or neighboring countries, at least at that time, perhaps for all we know there may be some handfuls in Syria or Iraq now. 

So why was this country acting in this way? Sadly, people who only view international politics from the perspective of individual self-interest of nations, cannot explain this and many such incidents. 

Truth is that being a Muslim country is enough of a reason that they will look at ideology rather than self-interest. They will pretend very well, to talk of self-interest but reality is different. Muhammad Assad, one of the earliest Pakistani diplomats explains this in one of his books, as a collective psychological issue - when the modern West was born, its first and most immediate enemy were Turks / Moors - by that they meant not the Turkish race but Muslims. Just like a traumatic experience in childhood leaves us permanently affected, this is what happened to the West. 

Suffice it to say that a dozen foreign intelligence agencies, their diplomatic might, their cooperative engagement will be aimed at ensuring weapons development, or critical industrial development is stunted in countries like Turkey and Pakistan. It will be aimed at ensuring that weapons systems like the JF-17 remain unexported. Technologies not shared. 

Just as the Egyptian development of the HF-300 fighter, which would have been a Mirage substitute, was scuttled and it was ensured that no Muslim country could continue with that effort. It would have been easy for Pakistan or some other country to take a well-developed and documented project that had 6 prototypes, and build on that, despite British sanction. But this was never done...

Anyways, I'm branching off a bit. I think its very important that these political realities be kept in mind so that no untoward accident can happen that would lead to the JF-17 program being less successful than otherwise. 

@messiach

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## araz

Armchair said:


> Maybe sometimes its better not to say anything until the deal is done. There are host of countries, agencies, etc that would try tooth and nail to ensure JF-17s are not exported anywhere. There are host of intelligence agencies that would do the same.
> 
> There just maybe too much information being leaked. While this is a lot of fun for us here, it is detrimental to the national interest of Pakistan and China. For instance, they don't need hard facts. Just leads. So if RUMINT suggests country X is interested in plane Y, they have a lead and then can go in to investigate. Given the technologies available to the usual suspects, this second step would be easy to do.
> 
> Sometimes we imagine that certain countries are acting independently in their own self-interest. But we don't know that certain countries and groups of countries, act together because of ideological reasons. For instance, I was once talking to a disgruntled spy of a country down under, who admitted said country was spying on Saudi Arabia, sending agents there. Said country down under had no interests, no geopolitical machinations, no military in Saudi Arabia or neighboring countries, at least at that time, perhaps for all we know there may be some handfuls in Syria or Iraq now.
> 
> So why was this country acting in this way? Sadly, people who only view international politics from the perspective of individual self-interest of nations, cannot explain this and many such incidents.
> 
> Truth is that being a Muslim country is enough of a reason that they will look at ideology rather than self-interest. They will pretend very well, to talk of self-interest but reality is different. Muhammad Assad, one of the earliest Pakistani diplomats explains this in one of his books, as a collective psychological issue - when the modern West was born, its first and most immediate enemy were Turks / Moors - by that they meant not the Turkish race but Muslims. Just like a traumatic experience in childhood leaves us permanently affected, this is what happened to the West.
> 
> Suffice it to say that a dozen foreign intelligence agencies, their diplomatic might, their cooperative engagement will be aimed at ensuring weapons development, or critical industrial development is stunted in countries like Turkey and Pakistan. It will be aimed at ensuring that weapons systems like the JF-17 remain unexported. Technologies not shared.
> 
> Just as the Egyptian development of the HF-300 fighter, which would have been a Mirage substitute, was scuttled and it was ensured that no Muslim country could continue with that effort. It would have been easy for Pakistan or some other country to take a well-developed and documented project that had 6 prototypes, and build on that, despite British sanction. But this was never done...
> 
> Anyways, I'm branching off a bit. I think its very important that these political realities be kept in mind so that no untoward accident can happen that would lead to the JF-17 program being less successful than otherwise.
> 
> @messiach


A good post and fully agree with sentiments expressed. I do have ananswer to why that country was being spied upon but perhaps it is best left unsaid. These things become obvious if you have firm faith and a little grasp of the Quran. I do not find anything surprising in what you write as the view has been my belief since the last 10 yrs or so.
Anyways lets move on. We do need some masaala to make this dish palatable.
A

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## MastanKhan

Armchair said:


> Maybe sometimes its better not to say anything until the deal is done. There are host of countries, agencies, etc that would try tooth and nail to ensure JF-17s are not exported anywhere. There are host of intelligence agencies that would do the same.
> 
> There just maybe too much information being leaked. While this is a lot of fun for us here, it is detrimental to the national interest of Pakistan and China. For instance, they don't need hard facts. Just leads. So if RUMINT suggests country X is interested in plane Y, they have a lead and then can go in to investigate. Given the technologies available to the usual suspects, this second step would be easy to do.
> 
> Sometimes we imagine that certain countries are acting independently in their own self-interest. But we don't know that certain countries and groups of countries, act together because of ideological reasons. For instance, I was once talking to a disgruntled spy of a country down under, who admitted said country was spying on Saudi Arabia, sending agents there. Said country down under had no interests, no geopolitical machinations, no military in Saudi Arabia or neighboring countries, at least at that time, perhaps for all we know there may be some handfuls in Syria or Iraq now.
> 
> So why was this country acting in this way? Sadly, people who only view international politics from the perspective of individual self-interest of nations, cannot explain this and many such incidents.
> 
> Truth is that being a Muslim country is enough of a reason that they will look at ideology rather than self-interest. They will pretend very well, to talk of self-interest but reality is different. Muhammad Assad, one of the earliest Pakistani diplomats explains this in one of his books, as a collective psychological issue - when the modern West was born, its first and most immediate enemy were Turks / Moors - by that they meant not the Turkish race but Muslims. Just like a traumatic experience in childhood leaves us permanently affected, this is what happened to the West.
> 
> Suffice it to say that a dozen foreign intelligence agencies, their diplomatic might, their cooperative engagement will be aimed at ensuring weapons development, or critical industrial development is stunted in countries like Turkey and Pakistan. It will be aimed at ensuring that weapons systems like the JF-17 remain unexported. Technologies not shared.
> 
> Just as the Egyptian development of the HF-300 fighter, which would have been a Mirage substitute, was scuttled and it was ensured that no Muslim country could continue with that effort. It would have been easy for Pakistan or some other country to take a well-developed and documented project that had 6 prototypes, and build on that, despite British sanction. But this was never done...
> 
> Anyways, I'm branching off a bit. I think its very important that these political realities be kept in mind so that no untoward accident can happen that would lead to the JF-17 program being less successful than otherwise.
> 
> @messiach



Hi,

Sometimes you wonder---who you are talking to on the other side of the screen------.

Eid Mubarrak

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## 帅的一匹

@Zarvan PAF is evaluating L15 advanced trainer

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## Armchair

I think if the L-15 can lower the utilization of F-16s by simulating F-16 flight profiles, it can be valuable.


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## syed_yusuf

wanglaokan said:


> @Zarvan PAF is evaluating L15 advanced trainer


I highly doubtf paf will buy L15. It is expensive and paf is cash starved


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## 帅的一匹

syed_yusuf said:


> I highly doubtf paf will buy L15. It is expensive and paf is cash starved


an anonymous from the Pakistan national defence university disclosed the news.

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## Windjammer

Seems the dual seat F-7 supports an additional antenna on it's spine.

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## denel

syed_yusuf said:


> I highly doubtf paf will buy L15. It is expensive and paf is cash starved


Absolutely, it makes no financial sense to bring L-15 onboard given the overall costs associated with maintenance not to mention new engines that come with it.


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## Readerdefence

wanglaokan said:


> @Zarvan PAF is evaluating L15 advanced trainer


Hi no exaggeration PAF might by after twin engine from china very soon that can be the reason for L15 otherwise they can opt for JL 9 also any input on this please 
Thank you


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## 帅的一匹

Readerdefence said:


> Hi no exaggeration PAF might by after twin engine from china very soon that can be the reason for L15 otherwise they can opt for JL 9 also any input on this please
> Thank you


for AZM training

L15 is the trainer for J20

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## 帅的一匹

if PAF induct the LIFT version, it can fill the gap when Q5 retire. then it will serve as a lead in fighter to run CAS and advanced trainer.



Windjammer said:


> Seems the dual seat F-7 supports an additional antenna on it's spine.
> 
> View attachment 480984


the paint job of F7 of PAF is eye candy.

its like brand new

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## fatman17

Eurosatory 2018
*Precision targeting [ES18D5]*

15 June 2018





Turkish defence electronics specialist Aselsan (Hall 6, Stand B200) is showing some of its solutions for precision targeting from tactical aircraft. An important system is the Aselpod advanced targeting pod, which has been acquired by the Turkish air force for carriage by F-4-2020 upgraded Phantom and F-16 aircraft, and has reportedly been ordered by Pakistan for fitment to the JF-17 Thunder.

To complement the Aselpod, the company has also developed a range of precision-guided munitions. A laser-guided bomb system adds a semi-active laser seeker to the nose of a Turkish-made Mk 80 series bomb, with a Paveway II-style fin kit.

With Tubitak-SAGE – Turkey’s defence industry R&D establishment – Aselsan has developed the HGK, a GPS/inertial guidance kit also tailored for Mk 80 series warheads. Small strakes are added to improve glide ranges, which can reach 15 nautical miles when the weapon is released from high altitude. A variety of impact profiles can be programmed to optimise weapon effects against different types of targets, ranging from a shallow dive (10°) attack to a vertical top attack.


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## BHarwana

*US to upgrade Pakistan Air Force F-16A Block 15 mid-life upgrade*

L3 Link Simulation and Training, Arlington, Texas, has been awarded a $7,064,503 firm-fixed-price contract for the Pakistan Air Force F-16A Block 15 mid-life upgrade 3rd aircrew training device, with spares and contractor logistics support as priced options. Work will be performed in Arlington, Texas, and is expected to be completed by November 2020. This award was the result of a sole-source acquisition via letter of offer and acceptance/international agreement competitive restrictions, and involves 100 percent foreign military sales to Pakistan. Air Force Life Cycle Management Center, Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Ohio, is the contracting activity (FA8621-18-C-0019).

Contract awarded 8th June 2018


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## mosu

[emoji2]

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## fatman17

Both Saab 2000 aircrafts acquired from Sweden (SE-LTU & SE-LTX) have reached Pakistan today at Noor Khan Air Base. It's not known yet for what role PAF intends to use these aircrafts. Most likely these aircrafts will be converted into AEWACS (Eyieye or Global eye?) at @packamra https://t.co/mwzbo573wp


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## ziaulislam

BHarwana said:


> *US to upgrade Pakistan Air Force F-16A Block 15 mid-life upgrade*
> 
> L3 Link Simulation and Training, Arlington, Texas, has been awarded a $7,064,503 firm-fixed-price contract for the Pakistan Air Force F-16A Block 15 mid-life upgrade 3rd aircrew training device, with spares and contractor logistics support as priced options. Work will be performed in Arlington, Texas, and is expected to be completed by November 2020. This award was the result of a sole-source acquisition via letter of offer and acceptance/international agreement competitive restrictions, and involves 100 percent foreign military sales to Pakistan. Air Force Life Cycle Management Center, Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Ohio, is the contracting activity (FA8621-18-C-0019).
> 
> Contract awarded 8th June 2018


Which aircrafts?


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## khanasifm

Pac part of recovery of Saab 2k achieved 4 th level or overhaul capability and may be conversation will be done at pac??? Guessing

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## fatman17

khanasifm said:


> Pac part of recovery of Saab 2k achieved 4 th level or overhaul capability and may be conversation will be done at pac??? Guessing


Guess is good because saves a lot of $$$


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## syed_yusuf

fatman17 said:


> Guess is good because saves a lot of $$$


electronic equipment needs to be bought from Sweden anyway...

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## ghazi52

1965: BBC correspondent interviewing fighter pilots of Pakistan Air Force.

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## fatman17

Flg Off Israr along with Wg Cdr Umar have embraced shahadat today in an FT-7 PG aircraft crash in Peshawar. Crash occurred due to engine flameout. https://t.co/MqLhyc78iy

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## Mahmood-ur-Rehman

May both rest in peace Ameen


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## Armchair-General

F7s and Mirages are flying coffins.
Replace them for God's sake


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## fatman17

Armchair-General said:


> F7s and Mirages are flying coffins.
> Replace them for God's sake


It's in progress with JFT Program. Unfortunately can't replace everything at the same time.

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## Talon

RIAT 2018 Tail art..

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## Usamafarooqi99

Armchair-General said:


> F7s and Mirages are flying coffins.
> Replace them for God's sake



these jets r numerous and its hard to replace them together
and PAF is making jf17 and will go for some other to replace them


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## denel

Armchair-General said:


> F7s and Mirages are flying coffins.
> Replace them for God's sake


F7PG not so much but Mirages.... they need to be gone.

FT-7 is used i believe not PG training model.


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## Armchair

There is no cranked wing training Ft-7 as far as I know. Would have helped lower takeoff and landing speeds.

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## alimobin memon

*SINGAPORE AIR FORCE SELLING ALL F16 i-e bulk of 60 examples by 2028 oldest OCU variant to be retired by 2020 according to a friend who lives in Singapore.*


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## GriffinsRule

They just got more F-15s and are in talks with procurement of F-35s, so makes sense. These surplus F-16s will most likely end up with Thailand or Indonesia etc.

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## HRK

Old news but not reported in local media

*Pakistan Air Force delegation visiting WZL-1*

On the 24th of November 2017, Military Aviation Works No. 1 had a pleasure to host the delegation of Pakistan Air Force in the head of which was General Sohail Aman. In addition to Pakistani delegates, the representatives of Polish Ministry of National Defence and Polish Armaments Group also participated in the meeting. *The dialogue focused on overhaul and modernization capabilities for Pakistani Mi-171, with a particular input on adapting those helicopters to modern NVG solutions.*





















http://www.wzl1.mil.pl/lodz/pakistan-air-force-delegation-visiting-wzl-1

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## denel

HRK said:


> Old news but not reported in local media
> 
> *Pakistan Air Force delegation visiting WZL-1*
> 
> On the 24th of November 2017, Military Aviation Works No. 1 had a pleasure to host the delegation of Pakistan Air Force in the head of which was General Sohail Aman. In addition to Pakistani delegates, the representatives of Polish Ministry of National Defence and Polish Armaments Group also participated in the meeting. *The dialogue focused on overhaul and modernization capabilities for Pakistani Mi-171, with a particular input on adapting those helicopters to modern NVG solutions.*
> View attachment 483900
> View attachment 483901
> View attachment 483902
> View attachment 483903
> View attachment 483904
> View attachment 483905
> 
> 
> http://www.wzl1.mil.pl/lodz/pakistan-air-force-delegation-visiting-wzl-1


My question - why not go direct to Russia vs Poland for maintenance of Mi-17s.


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## HRK

denel said:


> My question - why not go direct to Russia vs Poland for maintenance of Mi-17s.


Actually I am surprised at this news ... as in the year 2014 we establish an overhauling facility with the collaboration of Saint Petersburg Aviation Repair Company(SPARC) in Army Aviation workshop Rawalpindi, now for what reason Air force was seeking a separate facility that too from a different source is bit difficult to comment, might be modernisation and specially about night flying capability are the intriguing factor
http://dunyanews.tv/en/Pakistan/226683-Army-aviations-capacity-building-necessary-Army-

But one thing I would like to mention that one of our provincial government Mi-17 was sent to Russia for overhaul in 2016 or 2017 for the reason (if I am not wrong) of time saving as Army give preference to its inventory first than to entertain others entities

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

HRK said:


> Actually I am surprised at this news ... as in the year 2014 we establish an overhauling facility with the collaboration of Saint Petersburg Aviation Repair Company(SPARC) in Army Aviation workshop Rawalpindi, now for what reason Air force was seeking a separate facility that to from a different source is bit difficult to comment, might be modernisation and specially about night flying capability are the intriguing factor
> http://dunyanews.tv/en/Pakistan/226683-Army-aviations-capacity-building-necessary-Army-
> 
> But one thing I would like to mention that one of our provincial government Mi-17 was sent to Russia for overhaul in 2016 or 2017 for the reason (if I am not wrong) of time saving as Army give preference to its inventory first than to entertain others entities


The PAF might be looking to set-up a Depot Level MRO site for the Mi-17/35 at PAC. The PAA site is likely I-Level.

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## HRK

*Pakistan Air Force visiting WZL-1*

On the* 30-th of January 2018*, Wojskowe Zakłady Lotnicze Nr 1 (Military Aviation Works No. 1) had a pleasure of hosting Pakistan Air Force delegation, as well as the representatives of Polska Grupa Zbrojeniowa (Polish Armaments Group). *The dialogue was focused on WZL-1's capabilities in overhauling and modernizing Mi family helicopters with a particular input placed on Mi-17 and its adaptation to night operations.*


























http://www.wzl1.mil.pl/lodz/pakistan-air-force-visiting-wzl-1


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## razgriz19

HRK said:


> Actually I am surprised at this news ... as in the year 2014 we establish an overhauling facility with the collaboration of Saint Petersburg Aviation Repair Company(SPARC) in Army Aviation workshop Rawalpindi, now for what reason Air force was seeking a separate facility that too from a different source is bit difficult to comment, might be modernisation and specially about night flying capability are the intriguing factor
> http://dunyanews.tv/en/Pakistan/226683-Army-aviations-capacity-building-necessary-Army-
> 
> But one thing I would like to mention that one of our provincial government Mi-17 was sent to Russia for overhaul in 2016 or 2017 for the reason (if I am not wrong) of time saving as Army give preference to its inventory first than to entertain others entities


Just because a facility is present that doesn't mean it can repair and overhaul everything. Not every facility has the approval or knowhow to fix every part of the aircraft. 
Airplanes are not like cars.

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## ziaulislam

alimobin memon said:


> *SINGAPORE AIR FORCE SELLING ALL F16 i-e bulk of 60 examples by 2028 oldest OCU variant to be retired by 2020 according to a friend who lives in Singapore.*


Their is huge demand of f16 from coalition patners who don't have money.. Pakistan isn't one of those countries


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## HRK

razgriz19 said:


> Just because a facility is present that doesn't mean it can repair and overhaul everything.


that facility is specifically established for the overhaul of Mi-17 .... but your post make it look like a Facility built for a SPECIFIC purpose of Mi-17 overhaul is NOT able to perform the task for which it is built ....

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) explanation seem more logical, but than the question arise why are they not going to the same source from Russia for the D-level facility ....??

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

HRK said:


> that facility is specifically established for the overhaul of Mi-17 .... but your post make it look like a Facility built for a SPECIFIC purpose of Mi-17 overhaul is NOT able to perform the task for which it is built ....
> 
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) explanation seem more logical, but than the question arise why are they not going to the same source from Russia for the D-level facility ....??


Russia isn't easy to deal with when it comes to d-level maintenance, spare parts manufacturing, etc. Their local industry relies on providing these services.

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## khanasifm

Army is overhauling its fleet at paa facility so paf going separate way??

Or it’s just the upgrade for nvg

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## razgriz19

HRK said:


> that facility is specifically established for the overhaul of Mi-17 .... but your post make it look like a Facility built for a SPECIFIC purpose of Mi-17 overhaul is NOT able to perform the task for which it is built ....
> 
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) explanation seem more logical, but than the question arise why are they not going to the same source from Russia for the D-level facility ....??


PAF does all the major maintenance on its F16 in house and yet they had to send all the aircraft to Turkey for MLU. What does that tell you?
Any mod requires supplemental type certificate, and only certain organizations are capable of performing such mods. If the facility is not certified to carry out that task then they simply can't do it, unless they want to risk voiding the warranty

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## khanasifm

razgriz19 said:


> PAF does all the major maintenance on its F16 in house and yet they had to send all the aircraft to Turkey for MLU. What does that tell you?
> Any mod requires supplemental type certificate, and only certain organizations are capable of performing such mods. If the facility is not certified to carry out that task then they simply can't do it, unless they want to risk voiding the warranty



US did not allow pac/paf to do Mod in country and it had no option 

Paf did sent a team to participate at turkey to learn some new items stated only partial of the fleet was worked in Turkey and rest at PAF Base but not sure what’s true

Even turkey had to wait for Lm to mod two models and confirm modifications as paf had different equipment like Apg-68 v9 and other versus EU mlu which had paf-66v2 etc

Out of total 45 4 were mlued at Lm in USA and 41 in turkey/local ( local mod not sure)

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## Fieldmarshal

razgriz19 said:


> PAF does all the major maintenance on its F16 in house and yet they had to send all the aircraft to Turkey for MLU. What does that tell you?
> Any mod requires supplemental type certificate, and only certain organizations are capable of performing such mods. If the facility is not certified to carry out that task then they simply can't do it, unless they want to risk voiding the warranty



Actually the u.s had agreed for mlu to be carried out kamra until our "brothers" ie turkey convinced the americans other wise n hence we lost a huge opportunity.


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## khanasifm

Fieldmarshal said:


> Actually the u.s had agreed for mlu to be carried out kamra until our "brothers" ie turkey convinced the americans other wise n hence we lost a huge opportunity.



Its per official paf history, not sure where is your information based on 

Paf history book clearly stated what I shared


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## BHarwana

*JF-17B being Produced in PAC Kamra

Image date: 19 May 2018*


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## khanasifm

Are the 12 block 2 targeted for 2018 dual seaters ??


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## BHarwana

khanasifm said:


> Are the 12 block 2 targeted for 2018 dual seaters ??



If they are making it that means they are. The Image is recent and is from the visit of Chinese delegation at PAC Kamra and it clearly shows JF-17B being manufactured in the back ground. So the order for JF-17B has been placed and being constructed.







If you look behind the head of Chinese ambassador the number says 01 and there is another one in the back drop on the left of the Image being manufactured. So yes they have started the production of those 12 jets.

The Image date is 19 may 2018. So first one is almost near completion and we will soon hear the News of JF-17B being inducted.


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## khanasifm

BHarwana said:


> *JF-17B being Produced in PAC Kamra
> 
> Image date: 19 May 2018*



The one in the background is standard single seater check straight vertical tail vs dual seater slanted vertical stabiliser 

Plus 01 is the first dual seater which was transferred to pac for testing in feb / March

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## BHarwana

khanasifm said:


> The one in the background is standard single seater check straight vertical tail vs dual seater slanted vertical stabiliser
> 
> Plus 01 is the first dual seater which was transferred to pac for testing



This is not the test version. Test version are not parked in the construction facility. Kamra has runway and hangers away from production facility. These are the new ones being produced. I cannot say what version is the other one it is not clear from this image. I saw the single seat produced from the image of Core Commander Peshawar visited PAC Kamra.

here look at the latest single seat being produced. This is a ready for delivery jet.






The test version has no 001 marking on the nose section.






No where it says 001 so that image is of the first being produced at Kamra.






Production of JF-17B has started at Kamra and first one is near delivery.

Here is another proof an Image of Saudis visiting PAC kamra few months early it also has a JF-17B under production in the back. Saudis have inspected the manufacturing of JF-17B twice this means Saudis are interested in the Jet.

This is image of the second jet in the first Image.






This is a month older Image there are no landing gear and tail installed but in the recent Image they have been installed. So yes we are producing those 12 that had been ordered.


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## syed_yusuf

What will happen after first 150 JFT BUILD .for example are we going to get full right to produce entire airframe . What about shared avionics production etc. Does anyone have this data


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## SQ8

syed_yusuf said:


> What will happen after first 150 JFT BUILD .for example are we going to get full right to produce entire airframe . What about shared avionics production etc. Does anyone have this data


We already have full rights on the airplane.. we can build a golden toilet in it and paint the airplane pink.

We share production due to current lack lf equipment to produce all fuselage sections(with the required material) otherwise we have the right to build 100% of it.

The same goes for avionics, some of them are sourced from other countries as we do not have the capability to produce our own.

Otherwise, if it was a question of just rights and we had all the capability; we could produce 100% of the JF-17.

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## Thorough Pro

"Being Produced" are normally painted yellow, not the grey final paint scheme, besides serial number 01 points to the first prototype produced in china. the unit in pic looks like a complete unit.



BHarwana said:


> *JF-17B being Produced in PAC Kamra
> 
> Image date: 19 May 2018*


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## BHarwana

Thorough Pro said:


> "Being Produced" are normally painted yellow, not the grey final paint scheme, besides serial number 01 points to the first prototype produced in china. the unit in pic looks like a complete unit.



It is yellow in the intial stage but here it is beyond that stage you can see the avionic equipment already and seats there that means it is in the final stage. I cannot say what this actually is because it is only an image and all we can do is assess from it.


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## Thorough Pro

The grey paint comes on only after the flight tests are completed and jet is ready for delivery. If it is painted grey, then it is not under construction. May be opened up for inspection/learning/training



BHarwana said:


> It is yellow in the intial stage but here it is beyond that stage you can see the avionic equipment already and seats there that means it is in the final stage. I cannot say what this actually is because it is only an image and all we can do is assess from it.


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## BHarwana

Thorough Pro said:


> The grey paint comes on only after the flight tests are completed and jet is ready for delivery. If it is painted grey, then it is not under construction. May be opened up for inspection/learning/training



Now this image below says other wise. The jet is in grey paint


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## Thorough Pro

It does not prove it is being constructed. Probably routine checkup/inspection or maybe repair who knows?



BHarwana said:


> Now this image below says other wise. The jet is in grey paint

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## fatman17

Ra'ad ALCM mounted on center-line of PAF Mirage air craft.
Ra'ad ALCM, equipped with Nuclear Payload is meant to constitute air leg of Pakistan Nuclear Triad. As per future plans, Jf17 will be able to carry two Ra'ad 2 ALCM offering more range and twice fire power. https://t.co/KmffLHsJFk

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## BHarwana

*Nigerian lawmakers justify 24 additions to 2018 budget*

*The adjustments are:*

1. Augmentation to unity schools meal subsidy – N3,701,587,104.

2. Outstanding liability on exchange rate differential for 2015 & 2016 Bea ongoing remittances to 12 Bea countries (scholarship) – N3,265,720,064.

3. Rehabilitation of block C, D, G & H at the Headquarters and Lagos State office of Federal Ministry Of Industry, Trade & Investment – N1,207,942,115.

4. Construction of Kashimbilla/Gamovo multipurpose dam -N 2,000,000,000.

5. Strengthening public health against LASSA fever/other outbreaks: procurement and installation of incinerators, procurement of personal protective equipment, ribavirin and laboratory reagents and training of health personnel, construction of isolation ward at University of Abuja Teaching Hospital, Gwagwalada – N2,000,000,000.

6 Fast Power Programme Accelerated Gas and Solar Power Generation – N12,500,000,000.
7. Expansion and reinforcement of infrastructure in 11 distribution companies to reduce stranded generation capacity – N30,000,000,000.

8. Alternative energy development fund – N1,000,000,000.

9. Completion of headquarters building Federal Ministry of Women Affairs – N500,000,000.

10. Construction of 3000 capacity maximum security prison in Abuja (Phase I) – N6,031,862,972.

*11. Procurement of 3 x JF17 Thunder aircraft – N12,792,939,682.*

12. Security vote (including augmentation of shortfall in operational funds) for Nigerian Navy – N3,000,000,000.

13. Department of State Security – Pensions (including arrears) – N6,318,326,710.

14. Contributions to international organisations – N11,000,000,000.

15. Contingency -N2,800,000,000.

16. Military operation: Lafiya Dole & other operations of the armed forces – N3,000,000,000.

17. Subscription to shares in international organisations – N11,000,000,000.

18. SDG special projects – N38,000,000,000.

19. Contingency (capital) – N2,000,000,000.

20. Promotion, recruitment and appointment for Police Service Commission – N5,393,947,080.

21. Additional provision to some security agencies – N10,000,000,000.

22. Additional provision of N82billion on critical federal roads e.g. rehabilitation of Abuja-Kaduna-Zaria-Kano N10billion, rehabilitation of Lagos-Badagry-Seme road N4billion, rehabilitation/dualisation of Calabar-Itu-Ikot Ekpene-Aba-Owerri Road N7billion – N92,000,000,000.

23. Additional funds to new federal universities – N12,000,000,000.

24. National Institute for Legislative Studies (NILS) – N4,000,000,000.



https://www.premiumtimesng.com/news...kers-justify-24-additions-to-2018-budget.html


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## messiach

Good. This is as per blueprint. Toxic development.



fatman17 said:


> Ra'ad ALCM mounted on center-line of PAF Mirage air craft.
> Ra'ad ALCM, equipped with Nuclear Payload is meant to constitute air leg of Pakistan Nuclear Triad. As per future plans, Jf17 will be able to carry two Ra'ad 2 ALCM offering more range and twice fire power. https://t.co/KmffLHsJFk
> View attachment 485096

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## CriticalThought

messiach said:


> Good. This is as per blueprint. Toxic development.



It's good, but also a toxic development? Can you please explain?


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## fatman17

Lovely to see the Pakistan Air Force C-130 back again @airtattoo this year, great scheme too. https://t.co/8CiSWzTG1v


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## ghazi52

Pakistan Air force C130 Hercules Paint job for International Air Tattoo Competition in United Kingdom. #RIAT 2018







Pakistan Air Force beautiful C-130 Hercules. #RIAT 2018

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## Windjammer

*

Air Cdre Ahsan Rafique promoted to Air Vice Marshal.*
@Oscar

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## messiach

This is one of the series of ALCM developed for PAF. Just a meta-phrase.



CriticalThought said:


> It's good, but also a toxic development? Can you please explain?

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## ghazi52

ACM Arjun singh CNC Indian Air force being received by Flt Lt Farooq Umar and wing commander Afzal, on his landing at Peshawar , to resolve the POW (Prisoner of war) Issue. Post 1965 war.

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## SQ8

Windjammer said:


> *
> Air Cdre Ahsan Rafique promoted to Air Vice Marshal.*
> @Oscar


He is chief material.


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## HRK

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The PAF might be looking to set-up a Depot Level MRO site for the Mi-17/35 at PAC. *The PAA site is likely I-Level*.



I noted today that PAF has an in-house O & I-level facility available, as PAF purchase O & I-level test equipment for MI-17 in year *2015-2016 *(plz read item#17 at page 18 of Year book 2015-16, MODP: link).

So the visit of Ex-ACM Sohail Aman to overhaul facility of Mi-17 in Poland does make sense either for D-level overhaul in Poland or for the creation of D-level facility in Pakistan

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## CriticalThought

messiach said:


> This is one of the series of ALCM developed for PAF. Just a meta-phrase.



There is something hiding behind this meta-phrase that you are not telling us. You are not one to drop a meta-phrase for no reason.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

CriticalThought said:


> There is something hiding behind this meta-phrase that you are not telling us. You are not one to drop a meta-phrase for no reason.


My hopeful guess ... that we see a new family of ALCM for the JF-17 ... e.g. smaller/conventional? decoys? EW/ECM-jammer equipped ALCMs? supersonic cruising, etc?

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## CriticalThought

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> My hopeful guess ... that we see a new family of ALCM for the JF-17 ... e.g. smaller/conventional? decoys? EW/ECM-jammer equipped ALCMs? supersonic cruising, etc?



That would be great. Ever since your article about SOM, I haven't been expecting much. A jamming ALCM would be awesome. There is also your idea about bomblet dispenser. Hopefully some will see the light of day.

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## The Accountant

CriticalThought said:


> That would be great. Ever since your article about SOM, I haven't been expecting much. A jamming ALCM would be awesome. There is also your idea about bomblet dispenser. Hopefully some will see the light of day.


I think bomblet disposal should be based on gliding stand-off weapon rather than cruise missile as the cost of cruise missile is hgih to get any real benefits ...


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## CriticalThought

The Accountant said:


> I think bomblet disposal should be based on gliding stand-off weapon rather than cruise missile as the cost of cruise missile is hgih to get any real benefits ...



Consider a pair of ALCMs where dispenser types takes out perimeter security whereas the main one takes out the target. It's meant for special purposes.


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## khanasifm

HRK said:


> I noted today that PAF has an in-house O & I-level facility available, as PAF purchase O & I-level test equipment for MI-17 in year *2015-2016 *(plz read item#17 at page 18 of Year book 2015-16, MODP: link).
> 
> So the visit of Ex-ACM Sohail Aman to overhaul facility of Mi-17 in Poland does make sense either for D-level overhaul in Poland or for the creation of D-level facility in Pakistan



Paa already has depot level for mi-17 not sure what’s paf doing ?? 

Why not pool resources ?? 

https://www.helis.com/database/news/pakarmy_mi17/


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## HRK

khanasifm said:


> Paa already has depot level for mi-17 not sure what’s paf doing ??
> 
> https://www.helis.com/database/news/pakarmy_mi17/


yes I was aware about PAA facility but PAF facility was not in my knowledge

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## fatman17

Nice


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## messiach

Good development.


Windjammer said:


> *
> Air Cdre Ahsan Rafique promoted to Air Vice Marshal.*
> @Oscar

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## Raider 21

Windjammer said:


> *
> Air Cdre Ahsan Rafique promoted to Air Vice Marshal.*
> @Oscar


A dedicated professional. Rare breed in the air force...

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## ghazi52

PAF Korangi Creek Air Station...................

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## ACE OF THE AIR

ghazi52 said:


> PAF Korangi Creek Air Station...................


which year are these pics of?


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## BHarwana




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## ghazi52

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> which year are these pics of?


 
May be 1940 to 43.

The facility was established by the RAF in 1923. Located in a beach area of Karachi, the primary role of the facility was to provide the embarkation and disembarkation facilities to the RAF and other British personnel arriving by civil or military amphibious aircraft, and also to handle receipts and dispatch of cargo on these aircraft.


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## Thorough Pro

What does it say?



BHarwana said:


>


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## BHarwana

Thorough Pro said:


> What does it say?



There are go-pro on the wing tips. which means that it is going for weapons drop test.


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## khanasifm

Thorough Pro said:


> What does it say?



I think some one posted camera attached and separation testing in progress drop tanks, other external load etc


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## Thorough Pro

Left one is not wing tip rather tail



BHarwana said:


> There are go-pro on the wing tips. which means that it is going for weapons drop test.


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## BHarwana

Thorough Pro said:


> Left one is not wing tip rather tail



I only told you what it said.

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## Ali_Baba

The F7s and Mirages are too old now otherwise this upgrade would have been cool : http://www.leonardocompany.com/en/-/grifo-fighter-escan

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Ali_Baba said:


> The F7s and Mirages are too old now otherwise this upgrade would have been cool : http://www.leonardocompany.com/en/-/grifo-fighter-escan


That can be an option for the JF-17 ... if not the PAF's Block-IIIs, then either for export or as a less complex AESA radar route for the current Block-I and Block-II.


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## ghazi52

RAF Mauripur







Terminal Building RAF Mauripur

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## araz

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> That can be an option for the JF-17 ... if not the PAF's Block-IIIs, then either for export or as a less complex AESA radar route for the current Block-I and Block-II.


There is genuine concern about marrying systems from different providers especially Radars. This was ONE of the reasons for going for the KLJ7A. With PAC gearing up for in house manufacturing it seems less and less likely that a radar from another provider will find its way into JFT.
A

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## fatman17

*ZDK-03/Y-8P Karakoram Eagle*



*ZDK-03* (*Y-8P*) is an AWACS aircraft developed for the Pakistani Air Force as part of the *JF-17* supporting project initiated in the early 2000. A Y-8 AWACS testbed (S/N T0518/Y-8CE) based on Y-8 Category II Platform was first discovered at CFTE in early 2006. Unlike *KJ-200*, this variant carries a traditional rotodome on top of its fuselage, with a mechanically rotating antenna inside. The PESA radar is thought to scan electronically in elevation but mechanically in azimuth. Therefore the Y-8 AWACS was speculated to be developed for the export market only as it appears less advanced than *KJ-200* which features a fixed AESA radar. However this design does provide a true 360° coverage and carry a cheaper price tag. The AEW radar is the product of the 38th Institute/CETC, but no details are available. The aircraft also features MAWS sensors on both sides of the nose and tail cone, and small vertical stabilizers attached to its tailplanes. Additional fairings are seen at the wingtips and the tail housing ESM antennas. The Y-8 AWACS prototype flew to Pakistan and was evaluated by Pakistani AF in 2006. After some negotiations a much improved design was developed based on PAF's specifications. The variant is now named *ZDK-03/Y-8P* (_ZDK_ means CETC) and is based on the new Y-8 Category III Platform featuring WJ-6C turboprops with 6-blade high efficiency propellers. It was reported in early 2009 that a total of 4 were ordered by PAF in a $278m contract. The first *ZDK-03* prototype rolled out in November 2010 at SAC. Since then it has been undergoing test at CFTE (S/N 733). The first *ZDK-03* (S/N 11-001) was delivered to PAF in December 2011. The 2nd (S/N 12-002, formerly 11-002) was delivered some time later. The third (S/N 13-003, formerly 12-003) was delivered in 2013. The delivery of the 4th (S/N 14-004) was delayed until February 2015, probably due to certain upgrades such as a new datalink. *ZDK-03* is serving as the airborne command & control center for the *JF-17* fighter fleet currently in service with PAF. However it does not have the secure NATO datalink installed to effectively command western fighter aircraft such as American F-16. Therefore *ZDK-03* operates together with Saab-2000 in a "high-low" combination in order to coordinate various Chinese and western made combat aircraft effectively. The latest rumor (June 2015) suggested that the AWACS might be upgraded in the future with a fixed AESA radar similar to the one onboard *KJ-500*.
_- Last Updated 3/25/17_



araz said:


> There is genuine concern about marrying systems from different providers especially Radars. This was ONE of the reasons for going for the KLJ7A. With PAC gearing up for in house manufacturing it seems less and less likely that a radar from another provider will find its way into JFT.
> A



at the end of the day, its all about performance. PAF is still in love with western systems and therefore it cannot be totally ignored.


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## denel

fatman17 said:


> *ZDK-03/Y-8P Karakoram Eagle*
> 
> 
> 
> *ZDK-03* (*Y-8P*) is an AWACS aircraft developed for the Pakistani Air Force as part of the *JF-17* supporting project initiated in the early 2000. A Y-8 AWACS testbed (S/N T0518/Y-8CE) based on Y-8 Category II Platform was first discovered at CFTE in early 2006. Unlike *KJ-200*, this variant carries a traditional rotodome on top of its fuselage, with a mechanically rotating antenna inside. The PESA radar is thought to scan electronically in elevation but mechanically in azimuth. Therefore the Y-8 AWACS was speculated to be developed for the export market only as it appears less advanced than *KJ-200* which features a fixed AESA radar. However this design does provide a true 360° coverage and carry a cheaper price tag. The AEW radar is the product of the 38th Institute/CETC, but no details are available. The aircraft also features MAWS sensors on both sides of the nose and tail cone, and small vertical stabilizers attached to its tailplanes. Additional fairings are seen at the wingtips and the tail housing ESM antennas. The Y-8 AWACS prototype flew to Pakistan and was evaluated by Pakistani AF in 2006. After some negotiations a much improved design was developed based on PAF's specifications. The variant is now named *ZDK-03/Y-8P* (_ZDK_ means CETC) and is based on the new Y-8 Category III Platform featuring WJ-6C turboprops with 6-blade high efficiency propellers. It was reported in early 2009 that a total of 4 were ordered by PAF in a $278m contract. The first *ZDK-03* prototype rolled out in November 2010 at SAC. Since then it has been undergoing test at CFTE (S/N 733). The first *ZDK-03* (S/N 11-001) was delivered to PAF in December 2011. The 2nd (S/N 12-002, formerly 11-002) was delivered some time later. The third (S/N 13-003, formerly 12-003) was delivered in 2013. The delivery of the 4th (S/N 14-004) was delayed until February 2015, probably due to certain upgrades such as a new datalink. *ZDK-03* is serving as the airborne command & control center for the *JF-17* fighter fleet currently in service with PAF. However it does not have the secure NATO datalink installed to effectively command western fighter aircraft such as American F-16. Therefore *ZDK-03* operates together with Saab-2000 in a "high-low" combination in order to coordinate various Chinese and western made combat aircraft effectively. The latest rumor (June 2015) suggested that the AWACS might be upgraded in the future with a fixed AESA radar similar to the one onboard *KJ-500*.
> _- Last Updated 3/25/17_
> 
> 
> 
> at the end of the day, its all about performance. PAF is still in love with western systems and therefore it cannot be totally ignored.


In terms of electronics, china is lagging behind a lot. With time they will catch up but most likely they are borrowing a lot from Elta and that is making its way across their developments.


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## LKJ86




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## HRK

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 487132


plz post translation ...


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## LKJ86

HRK said:


> plz post translation ...


*张又侠会见巴基斯坦空军参谋长*
来源：国防部网作者：欧阳浩责任编辑：汤传飞2018-07-19 17:40
摘要：7月19日下午，中央军委副主席张又侠在乌鲁木齐会见了巴基斯坦空军参谋长穆加希德。

7月19日下午，中央军委副主席张又侠在乌鲁木齐会见了巴基斯坦空军参谋长穆加希德。

张又侠说，中巴是“全天候战略合作伙伴”，两国人民世代友好的情谊历久弥新。无论国际形势如何变化，中巴永远是守望相助的好邻居、好朋友、好兄弟、好伙伴。近日，习近平主席就巴发生严重恐袭事件向侯赛因总统致慰问电，坚定支持巴为打击恐怖主义，维护国家稳定、保护人民生命安全所作的努力，充分体现了中巴两国和两国人民之间的高度互信和深厚情谊。在新的历史时期，中巴两军应进一步加强沟通协调，深化防务安全合作，共同维护地区和平稳定，不断将两军关系推向新的水平。

穆加希德说，感谢习近平主席在巴遭受严重恐袭事件后第一时间发电慰问，这是习主席和中国人民对巴基斯坦人民和军队兄弟般的关怀，更加坚定了我们打击恐怖主义，维护地区安全的决心与信心。巴方珍视巴中友谊，高度重视两军防务安全合作，巴空军愿与中方积极深化各领域务实合作，坚定不移推进两军关系不断发展。（欧阳浩）

Soure:http://www.mod.gov.cn/shouye/2018-07/19/content_4819755.htm

*Google Translate:*
On the afternoon of July 19, Zhang Youxia, vice chairman of the Central Military Commission, met with Pakistani Air Force Chief of Staff Mugahid in Urumqi.

Zhang Youxia said that China and Pakistan are "all-weather strategic partners" and the friendship between the two peoples for generations has been long-lasting. No matter how the international situation changes, China and Pakistan will always be good neighbors, good friends, good brothers and good partners. Recently, President Xi Jinping expressed his condolences to President Hussein on the serious terrorist attacks in Pakistan and firmly supported Pakistan’s efforts to fight terrorism, safeguard national stability and protect people’s lives, fully demonstrating China and Pakistan and the two countries. High mutual trust and deep friendship between the people. In the new historical period, the two armies should further strengthen communication and coordination, deepen defense and security cooperation, jointly safeguard regional peace and stability, and constantly push the relations between the two militaries to a new level.

Mugahid said that he thanked President Xi Jinping for the first time after the severe terrorist attacks in Pakistan. This is the fraternal concern of President Xi and the Chinese people to the Pakistani people and the army. It has strengthened our fight against terrorism and safeguarded the region. Safety determination and confidence. The Pakistani side cherishes the friendship between Pakistan and China and attaches great importance to the defense and security cooperation between the two armies. The Pakistani Air Force is willing to actively deepen pragmatic cooperation with China in various fields and unswervingly promote the continuous development of relations between the two militaries. (Ouyang Hao)

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## LKJ86

*Google Translate*:
On July 18, Luo Ronghuai, general manager of China Aviation Industry, met with visiting Pakistan Air Force chief of staff, General Mujahid, in Beijing.
The two sides reviewed the long and far-reaching history of cooperation between China and Pakistan in the aviation industry. Mujahid said that the Pakistan Air Force highly appreciates the seriousness and professionalism of China's aviation industry partners. Thanks to the Chinese aviation industry's support for the Pakistan Air Force for many years, the Pakistan Air Force will always cherish the friendship with the Chinese aviation industry. Luo Ronghuai thanked the Pakistan Air Force for its trust in China's aviation industry and said that China's aviation industry will work together with the Pakistan Air Force to promote the continuous development and growth of bilateral cooperation projects and contribute to strengthening cooperation between China and Pakistan. The two sides reached an agreement on the subsequent deepening of relevant project cooperation.

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## fatman17

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1021749453362003968JF17

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## messiach

He's there to inspect something major. @Bilal Khan (Quwa) 



LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 487132

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

messiach said:


> He's there to inspect something major. @Bilal Khan (Quwa)


If I had to guess ... is the PAF aiming to show a frozen design/mock-up at IDEAS 2020?


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## Ahmet Pasha

Man Sohail Aman had a vision. I am very scared that this new guy or his team might just go for a foreign licensed and locally produced fighter, killing off any prospect of strengthening our R&D abilities. Instead of actually making the FGF in house inside Pakistan.

He should visit Turkey as well. They have better goodies in terms of electronics and munitions to offer. And a solid know how since they have been manufacturing F-16s and now stealth composite materials used in F-35 Fuselage.

Moreover, with the T-129 along with local assembly making inroads into our defence industry Turkey will be a highly valuable partner in defence especially aerospace albeit an expensive one but one that will pay off in the long run.


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## Readerdefence

fatman17 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1021749453362003968JF17


Hi awesome video anything while night time IFR I hope they can shoot something IFR night time 
Will be a hit for jf17 sales also
Thank you


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## denel

Readerdefence said:


> Hi awesome video anything while night time IFR I hope they can shoot something IFR night time
> Will be a hit for jf17 sales also
> Thank you


I will not be surprised if IFR is on the 'nice to have' priority list.

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## messiach

Do'nt know. This is about block3.



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> If I had to guess ... is the PAF aiming to show a frozen design/mock-up at IDEAS 2020?

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## CriticalThought

messiach said:


> Do'nt know. This is about block3.



Oooooooh!!!!!!!!!!


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## hassan1

Pakistan Air Force Hospital Islamabad

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## Talon

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Man Sohail Aman had a vision. I am very scared that this new guy or his team might just go for a foreign licensed and locally produced fighter, killing off any prospect of strengthening our R&D abilities. Instead of actually making the FGF in house inside Pakistan.
> 
> He should visit Turkey as well. They have better goodies in terms of electronics and munitions to offer. And a solid know how since they have been manufacturing F-16s and now stealth composite materials used in F-35 Fuselage.
> 
> Moreover, with the T-129 along with local assembly making inroads into our defence industry Turkey will be a highly valuable partner in defence especially aerospace albeit an expensive one but one that will pay off in the long run.


Not every chief is same..if current CAS doesn't appear much on Tv like the former that doesn't mean he isnt doing anything.
Quoting words of a Paf senior officer "the institute is merely affected by the change of CAS"

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## SQ8

Hodor said:


> Not every chief is same..if current CAS doesn't appear much on Tv like the former that doesn't mean he isnt doing anything.
> Quoting words of a Paf senior officer "the institute is merely affected by the change of CAS"


But some CAS can make or break the PAF by appointments of yes men or corrupt people.

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## hassan1




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## Ahmet Pasha

Werent the brazilians interested in JF17 earlier as well???


hassan1 said:


> View attachment 490075
> View attachment 490076


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## Raider 21

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Werent the brazilians interested in JF17 earlier as well???


Interested does not mean they'll buy it. They got their own domestic projects and the Gripen program coming up. They'll pick the best platform based on their resources, selection decisions at the best cost..


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## Ahmet Pasha

Yep I think the same way. Was just recalling how they had an interest in JF17 in the past. What domestic projects they have tho???

I thought they had a design that turned out to be a paper tiger.


Knuckles said:


> Interested does not mean they'll buy it. They got their own domestic projects and the Gripen program coming up. They'll pick the best platform based on their resources, selection decisions at the best cost..


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## khanasifm

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Yep I think the same way. Was just recalling how they had an interest in JF17 in the past. What domestic projects they have tho???
> 
> I thought they had a design that turned out to be a paper tiger.



You are mixing Argentina and Brazil ?? For jf interest ?? 

Brazilian always had Swedish Grippen in sight and traditionally enjoyed / preferred Swedish products


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Knuckles said:


> Interested does not mean they'll buy it. They got their own domestic projects and the Gripen program coming up. They'll pick the best platform based on their resources, selection decisions at the best cost..


IMO ... the Brazilians are trying to sell us on the KC-390.

The PAF would *never* consider the KC-390 a viable replacement for the C-130B/E, the latter is credible beyond doubt in Pakistan's hot-and-high environment. *However*, the KC-390 could make for an interesting multi-role tanker and transport (MRTT) replacement to the IL-78.

The IL-78 does provide a unique capability in terms of heavy-lift, but those D-30 engines aren't as efficient as the KC-390's IAE V2500, i.e. an airliner engine (used by the many hundreds of A320s around the world). From better fuel efficiency to lower life-cycle costs (via an ubiquitous commercial and global MRO base), KC-390 looks good.

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## Tps43

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IMO ... the Brazilians are trying to sell us on the KC-390.
> 
> The PAF would *never* consider the KC-390 a viable replacement for the C-130B/E, the latter is credible beyond doubt in Pakistan's hot-and-high environment. *However*, the KC-390 could make for an interesting multi-role tanker and transport (MRTT) replacement to the IL-78.
> 
> The IL-78 does provide a unique capability in terms of heavy-lift, but those D-30 engines aren't as efficient as the KC-390's IAE V2500, i.e. an airliner engine (used by the many hundreds of A320s around the world). From better fuel efficiency to lower life-cycle costs (via an ubiquitous commercial and global MRO base), KC-390 looks good.


Can KC 390 refuel our F 16's?

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## ZedZeeshan

tps77 said:


> Can KC 390 refuel our F 16's?


yes

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

tps77 said:


> Can KC 390 refuel our F 16's?


Hose & Drogue only...

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## Tps43

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Hose & Drogue only...


So can it be option for our fleet? 
I was thinking we can make a sqn just by purchasing 2 example solely for our F 16's fleet


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## Ahmet Pasha

Oh yeah thanks for correction. Argentinians were the ones who were joy riding on multiple platforms like kfir etc etc


khanasifm said:


> You are mixing Argentina and Brazil ?? For jf interest ??
> 
> Brazilian always had Swedish Grippen in sight and traditionally enjoyed / preferred Swedish products


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

tps77 said:


> So can it be option for our fleet?
> I was thinking we can make a sqn just by purchasing 2 example solely for our F 16's fleet


No. The KC-390 can only work with the JF-17 and Mirages, not the F-16. The F-16 needs a boom type refueler, but those are basically unavaipauna to us. The only plausible option is the A330 MRTT, but it's not on offer and/or too expensive.

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## Tps43

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> No. The KC-390 can only work with the JF-17 and Mirages, not the F-16. The F-16 needs a boom type refueler, but those are basically unavaipauna to us. The only plausible option is the A330 MRTT, but it's not on offer and/or too expensive.


How much expensive ?
Btw whats your opinion on buying C 130J ?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

tps77 said:


> How much expensive ?
> Btw whats your opinion on buying C 130J ?


Each A330 MRTT is around $250-300 m.

Each C-130J is around $233 m.

Note: both prices include training, logistics and after-sale maintenance and support costs. Still quite expensive.

That said, one alternative to the C-130J might be the LM-100J; it's basically the same aircraft, but without the costly on board electronics. Each LM-100J could potentially be had for around $100 m each (with support package).

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## Tps43

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Each A330 MRTT is around $250-300 m.
> 
> Each C-130J is around $233 m.
> 
> Note: both prices include training, logistics and after-sale maintenance and support costs. Still quite expensive.
> 
> That said, one alternative to the C-130J might be the LM-100J; it's basically the same aircraft, but without the costly on board electronics. Each LM-100J could potentially be had for around $100 m each (with support package).


Is our transport fleet enough and do u think our C 130 B models need replacement?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

tps77 said:


> Is our transport fleet enough and do u think our C 130 B models need replacement?


I don't think the PAF is worrying about the C-130s at the moment.

The main issue I think are air-to-air refueling (AAR) aircraft. The IL-78MP isn't fuel-efficient enough for the role nor is it compatible with the F-16. If only for fuel-efficiency, the KC-390 could be an interesting match to the JF-17 (and next-generation fighters), but otherwise, I imagine the A330 MRTT would be ideal.

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## Tps43

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I don't think the PAF is worrying about the C-130s at the moment.
> 
> The main issue I think are air-to-air refueling (AAR) aircraft. The IL-78MP isn't fuel-efficient enough for the role nor is it compatible with the F-16. If only for fuel-efficiency, the KC-390 could be an interesting match to the JF-17 (and next-generation fighters), but otherwise, I imagine the A330 MRTT would be ideal.


Both of us know Paf wont dump IL 78 till next decade , buying 2 A330 MRTT for around 500 million $ would be Ideal. Lets see what happens.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

tps77 said:


> Both of us know Paf wont dump IL 78 till next decade , buying 2 A330 MRTT for around 500 million $ would be Ideal. Lets see what happens.


'next decade' is in 2 years (2020s)

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## Tps43

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> 'next decade' is in 2 years (2020s)


My Bad 
2028.
Btw any news on LLR's what I heard is that its still pending although It is being said decision is near , and its European platform.

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## Inception-06

tps77 said:


> Both of us know Paf wont dump IL 78 till next decade , buying 2 A330 MRTT for around 500 million $ would be Ideal. Lets see what happens.



Is it not wise to check the Chinese options? The *Shaanxi Y-9 !*

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## Tps43

Inception-06 said:


> Is it not wise to check the Chinese options? The *Shaanxi Y-9 !*


Can this platform support support our F 16's?


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## Inception-06

tps77 said:


> Can this platform support support our F 16's?



I was just thinking about the transport fleet! I don't know if it is even possible for PAF to introduce so deep in Indian airspace?

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## Tps43

Inception-06 said:


> I was just thinking about the transport fleet! I don't if it is even possible for PAF to introduce so deep in Indian airspace?


Ohh I thought u were talking about MRTT , For transport fleet , yes it can be an option but it depends about its engines tbh.

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## Windjammer



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## hassan1



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## Trailer23

*Here is a recent video I edited dedicating to the Men & Women of the PAF.
*

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## denel

Knuckles said:


> Interested does not mean they'll buy it. They got their own domestic projects and the Gripen program coming up. They'll pick the best platform based on their resources, selection decisions at the best cost..


Yup, with Embraer as a local giant, they are looking for good top line solutions which they can own.


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## SQ8

hassan1 said:


> View attachment 490788
> View attachment 490789
> View attachment 490790


Just passing time.


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## hassan1




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## Trailer23

*A new 30sec Teaser I edited on the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (Kamra).*


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## Lord Of Gondor

Wonderful read:
https://hushkit.net/2017/10/30/flyi...-conversation-with-wg-cdr-irfan-masum-part-1/

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## air marshal

PAF JF-17 Thunder landing in Poland for Radom International Airshow 2018 - 100 years of Polish Air Force. Photo by Marian Jędrych

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## denel

air marshal said:


> PAF JF-17 Thunder landing in Poland for Radom International Airshow 2018 - 100 years of Polish Air Force. Photo by Marian Jędrych


what was the flight path used?


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## Trailer23

*100 Years of Polish Air Force - AIRSHOW 2018 - 25/26 August*

http://en.airshow.wp.mil.pl/artykuly/aktualnosci/2018-06-11-pac-jf-17-thunder-from-pakistan/


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## litman

i think PAF should not use a plane painted in national flag at international air show. any mishap and it will be a huge embarrassment for the country and air force. the western and indian media will bark a lot against china and pak. plane painted in national flag colors can bring pride if it is expected to out perform all others in an air show but we all know that in an air show JFT in present configuration cant outperform F-16, rafale, EF and the latest sukhois.

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## salman-1

I think it's not there to compete for a tender its there to demonstrate what it can show. By the way has Poland made an indigenous fighter jet in their 100 years, No we have, and its there in our colours and we should be proud of it.

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## ZedZeeshan




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## Thunder.Storm

WTF


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## Thunder.Storm

Project azm 5th gen fgfa

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## Pakistani Aircraft

That's an FC-31.


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## Thorough Pro

Most probably Pakistan-Iran-Turkey-Bulgaria-Romania-Poland



denel said:


> what was the flight path used?


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## denel

salman-1 said:


> I think it's not there to compete for a tender its there to demonstrate what it can show. By the way has Poland made an indigenous fighter jet in their 100 years, No we have, and its there in our colours and we should be proud of it.


Wrong..... It is not your construction, it is made in China; assembled in Pak. Please get your facts correct.

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## salman-1

denel said:


> Wrong..... It is not your construction, it is made in China; assembled in Pak. Please get your facts correct.


Please inform how many of the 100 built so far are made in china. It's already known its a joint venture between China and Pakistan. No more debate on this please.


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## salman-1

Thunder.Storm said:


> Project azm 5th gen fgfa
> View attachment 493335


Well if the design and Rcs meets the standards set for a stealth aircraft, then it's a wise decision to adapt the Fc-31 design with changes made in design for a single engine, which in long term is an economical solution to keep max fleet airworthy. Engines being developed in China will mature in few years more, as if J20 engine will be up to the power for Azm project. Adopting design would also help save a lot of time, efforts and money in terms of testing and making it a proven design.

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## messiach

Interesting.


Thunder.Storm said:


> Project azm 5th gen fgfa
> View attachment 493335

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## messiach

@All How do we serve information to&fro in a 4th gen platform?


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## khanasifm

Thunder.Storm said:


> WTF
> View attachment 493334



Was this even worth posting my friend ? ??? 

There is no need to even post such items

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## denel

salman-1 said:


> Please inform how many of the 100 built so far are made in china. It's already known its a joint venture between China and Pakistan. No more debate on this please.


Yes no more calling it indeginous or what ever verbiage to make it your own. 


salman-1 said:


> Please inform how many of the 100 built so far are made in china. It's already known its a joint venture between China and Pakistan. No more debate on this please.


Salman. 
Please check the meaning of indigenous before writing it then saying it is a joint venture. It is completely a product of china with input from Pak. 
We all know what it is so please dont give it a coinage which it is not; that is what i am suggesting.

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## Tps43

denel said:


> Yes no more calling it indeginous or what ever verbiage to make it your own.
> 
> Salman.
> Please check the meaning of indigenous before writing it then saying it is a joint venture. It is completely a product of china with input from Pak.
> We all know what it is so please dont give it a coinage which it is not; that is what i am suggesting.


Its a joint venture not indigenous tho.
And we all know that ask any senior member @Windjammer @Oscar @Signalian


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## CriticalThought

messiach said:


> @All How do we serve information to&fro in a 4th gen platform?



Madam, are you hinting at Network Centric Warfare through datalink?


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## Dazzler

messiach said:


> @All How do we serve information to&fro in a 4th gen platform?



Using datalink.


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## salman-1

salman-1 said:


> I think it's not there to compete for a tender its there to demonstrate what it can show. By the way has Poland made an indigenous fighter jet in their 100 years, No we have, and its there in our colours and we should be proud of it.


Yes I know the meaning of indigenous, solely ours. My mistake, but used it in a sense that some freind was disliking the colour scheme Paf used and sent that bird to Poland. I was just referring to the achievement as compared to other air forces. And the post you are referring my brother I also stated a joint venture of China and Pakistan.


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## SQ8

denel said:


> Yes no more calling it indeginous or what ever verbiage to make it your own.
> 
> Salman.
> Please check the meaning of indigenous before writing it then saying it is a joint venture. It is completely a product of china with input from Pak.
> We all know what it is so please dont give it a coinage which it is not; that is what i am suggesting.


It did have Pakistani engineers oursourced and as part of the design team(certain papers were published and others co authored). But as such the JF-17/FC-1 is a product of Chengdu. 
@messiach

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## SQ8

messiach said:


> @All How do we serve information to&fro in a 4th gen platform?


All generations have some sort of datalink, the more interesting bit is the medium. I wonder if the idea of using the AESA as the data transfer antenna has made it to PAC? @Bilal Khan (Quwa) 

My favorite means is what was originally planned for the F-22: a dual radio/laser based datalink which would be essentially impossible to jam unless physically blocked.

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## Quwa

Oscar said:


> All generations have some sort of datalink, the more interesting bit is the medium. I wonder if the idea of using the AESA as the data transfer antenna has made it to PAC? @Bilal Khan (Quwa)
> 
> My favorite means is what was originally planned for the F-22: a dual radio/laser based datalink which would be essentially impossible to jam unless physically blocked.


IIRC the current push of the industry is to use AESA TRMs for both radar and EW/ECM and, I imagine, having these TRMs work in unison. You'd need a sensor fusion engine that can properly manage these TRMs, but the outcome is 360-degree situational awareness, forward jamming and hundreds of available data transfer antennas for TDL.

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## CriticalThought

Oscar said:


> All generations have some sort of datalink, the more interesting bit is the medium. I wonder if the idea of using the AESA as the data transfer antenna has made it to PAC? @Bilal Khan (Quwa)
> 
> My favorite means is what was originally planned for the F-22: a dual radio/laser based datalink which would be essentially impossible to jam unless physically blocked.



How about a satellite datalink? Especially now that we are progressing towards indigenous satellite technology.

Imagine the Thunder launching a modified Raad that serves as an over the horizon reconnaissance drone sending pictures, video, and data through satellite uplink.

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## SQ8

CriticalThought said:


> How about a satellite datalink? Especially now that we are progressing towards indigenous satellite technology.
> 
> Imagine the Thunder launching a modified Raad that serves as an over the horizon reconnaissance drone sending pictures, video, and data through satellite uplink.


Or, to take your idea further.. RAAD having these capabilities as part of its guidance allowing it to be provide ISR on its way to target and then blow stuff up too. While it may seem expensive, Babur already has some sensor capabilities to actually capture imagery on route but that’s for TERPROM and target recognition.

H-2(Raptor) had image transmission back to thr target but I don’t think it is recorded on the datalink @denel

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## CriticalThought

Oscar said:


> Or, to take your idea further.. RAAD having these capabilities as part of its guidance allowing it to be provide ISR on its way to target and then blow stuff up too. While it may seem expensive, Babur already has some sensor capabilities to actually capture imagery on route but that’s for TERPROM and target recognition.
> 
> H-2(Raptor) had image transmission back to thr target but I don’t think it is recorded on the datalink @denel



Excellent. The ideal platform would be the B version where GIBS can update ISR while pilot concentrates on the flight. Going one step further, such Over The Horizon (OTH) sensor cum missile platforms could be controlled from AEWACS as well. The possibilities are endless.


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## SQ8

CriticalThought said:


> Excellent. The ideal platform would be the B version where GIBS can update ISR while pilot concentrates on the flight. Going one step further, such Over The Horizon (OTH) sensor cum missile platforms could be controlled from AEWACS as well. The possibilities are endless.


So are costs


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## MastanKhan

denel said:


> Yes no more calling it indeginous or what ever verbiage to make it your own.
> 
> Salman.
> Please check the meaning of indigenous before writing it then saying it is a joint venture. It is completely a product of china with input from Pak.
> We all know what it is so please dont give it a coinage which it is not; that is what i am suggesting.



Hi,

I think that your title " Senior Member " needs to be changed to " Defence Professional " category---so that the youngsters may think twice to nip at your heels---.

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## denel

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I think the your title " Senior Member " needs to be changed to " Defence Professional " category---so that the youngsters may think twice to nip at your heels---.


good idea. @waz anyone who can assist?

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## CriticalThought

Oscar said:


> So are costs



The idea is to benefit from indigenization/local production. If we look at the components, Raad, satellite, Thunder are all either indigenous or being produced locally. Furthermore, if we limit the range to the MTCR limit, we can benefit from exports as well.

Imagine a network of indigenous satellites providing coverage all the way to Turkey, or even Nigeria. The possibilities are endless!


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## SQ8

denel said:


> good idea. @waz anyone who can assist?


@WebMaster

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## SQ8

CriticalThought said:


> The idea is to benefit from indigenization/local production. If we look at the components, Raad, satellite, Thunder are all either indigenous or being produced locally. Furthermore, if we limit the range to the MTCR limit, we can benefit from exports as well.
> 
> Imagine a network of indigenous satellites providing coverage all the way to Turkey, or even Nigeria. The possibilities are endless!


Imagination is good( and I would never discourage it)but we need more than imagination when it comes to the myriad problems that effect our country’s R&D base.

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## messiach

There is a large contingent now. Early 2000's there were handful but this is their work. Lean$Mean.



Oscar said:


> It did have Pakistani engineers oursourced and as part of the design team(certain papers were published and others co authored). But as such the JF-17/FC-1 is a product of Chengdu.
> @messiach

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## messiach

OK. 


Dazzler said:


> Using datalink.


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## CriticalThought

Oscar said:


> Imagination is good( and I would never discourage it)but we need more than imagination when it comes to the myriad problems that effect our country’s R&D base.



Slightly off-topic, but if we quickly reflect on a discussion from another thread about quality of Pakistani soldiers vs American soldiers, it all goes back to social fabric.

In America and the West in general, you have at least a semblance of quality education. Most importantly, health is tied with education. Meals are served at the school cafeteria to provide nutrition. A solid culture of sports such as gymnastics, rugby, basketball provides exercise. You have a social fabric of educated, healthy people. Then, the population is largely free of mental tensions and stresses. This creates an environment for innovation, leadership, and excellence.

So, yes, we have huge challenges because of the same fundamental reasons, whether we are talking about quality of soldiers, or quality of researchers.

BUT, as far as research is concerned, there are quick fix solutions available. Make Western textbooks meant for first year of uni widely available. Books such as Physics Vol 1 and 2 by Halliday, Resnick, and Krane. Calculus by Howard Anton. Now create a program where students passing 12th grade are tested on these uni books. The test MUST NOT be about rote learning. It MUST test the ability to solve problems, with each year having a completely different set of problems. Provide incentives such as scholarships, stipends etc. The idea is to find students who are both willing and able to absorb material that is higher than what is taught up till grade 12. And absorb it to a degree where they can apply it to solve complex problems. I guarantee you, you WILL strike gold, Insha Allah. Had such programs been in place when yours truly passed 12th grade, you might be seeing two Pakistani flags in my profile today.

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## messiach

@All not to Oscar. There are lot of terms i read here, one is datalinks, link16-17-X with little insight. One of our colleagues created a 'spawned honeypot server' on a mobile platform & duped the rafael into accepting as original server. Create a server on your localhost & you can recraft it from zero.



Oscar said:


> All generations have some sort of datalink, the more interesting bit is the medium. I wonder if the idea of using the AESA as the data transfer antenna has made it to PAC? @Bilal Khan (Quwa)
> a dual radio/laser based datalink which would be essentially impossible to jam unless physically blocked.

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## CriticalThought

messiach said:


> @All not to Oscar. There are lot of terms i read here, one is datalinks, link16-17-X with little insight. One of our colleagues created a 'spawned honeypot server' on a mobile platform & duped the rafael into accepting as original server. Jet was owned.



Well of course security is of utmost importance. The point is, he hacked the Rafale once, can he hack it again after the design team has wisened up about the flaw?


----------



## CriticalThought

messiach said:


> @All not to Oscar. There are lot of terms i read here, one is datalinks, link16-17-X with little insight. One of our colleagues created a 'spawned honeypot server' on a mobile platform & duped the rafael into accepting as original server. Jet was owned.



Are you hinting at quantum communications by any chance?


----------



## messiach

Yes possible. Thats why virtual tunnels exists.


CriticalThought said:


> Well of course security is of utmost importance. The point is, he hacked the Rafale once, can he hack it again after the design team has wisened up about the flaw?


----------



## CriticalThought

messiach said:


> Yes possible. Thats why virtual tunnels exists.



If he can hack it just as easily the second time, the entire design team should be fired.


----------



## SQ8

messiach said:


> @All not to Oscar. There are lot of terms i read here, one is datalinks, link16-17-X with little insight. One of our colleagues created a 'spawned honeypot server' on a mobile platform & duped the rafael into accepting as original server. Create a server on your localhost & you can recraft it from zero.


Link 17 was started right in front of me- one guy was handed the pdf for stanag 5516 & 5522 and asked to start reading.

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## CriticalThought

Oscar said:


> Link 17 was started right in front of me- one guy was handed the pdf for stanag 5516 & 5522 and asked to start reading.



Is the guy an advisor around here these days, by any chance?


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## messiach

No. It was part of TDLCAP exercises. Technically its fingerprinting. On a general purpose server a close analogy would be to SSH over a virtual tunnel. Try honeypotting with standard tools - pentbox, pentmenu, ssh-honeypot....



CriticalThought said:


> If he can hack it just as easily the second time, the entire design team should be fired.


----------



## CriticalThought

messiach said:


> No. It was part of TDLCAP exercises. Technically its fingerprinting. On a general purpose server a close analogy would be to SSH over a virtual tunnel. Try honeypotting with standard tools - pentbox, pentmenu, ssh-honeypot....



Properly implemented SSH is extremely hard to break, especially if fixed keys are used. The only way to break it is to have access to the key files, or if poor quality keys are used.


----------



## Burhan Wani

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1032708935999016961
@Windjammer @Side-Winder What is this?


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## messiach

partly valid. 


CriticalThought said:


> Properly implemented SSH is extremely hard to break, especially if fixed keys are used. The only way to break it is to have access to the key files, or if poor quality keys are used.


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## CriticalThought

messiach said:


> partly valid.



I would love to learn. Can you please elaborate which part is invalid?


----------



## fatman17

*JF-17B Fierce Dragon/Thunder*



This tandem-seat trainer version was developed at the request of Pakistani AF, which also pre-ordered the first prototype. *JF-17B* is believed to have been based on the *JF-17* Block II configuration with a IFR probe and an LED probe light installed on the starboard side of the forward fuselage. The aircraft features an enlarged and raised spine which creates additional space for flight instruments and fuel in order to compensate the space occupied by the rear cockpit. The aircraft also features a more swept vertical tail in order to reduce drag and to maintain the center of gravity. A new color LED landing light was installed above the front landing gear. A more powerful cockpit environmental control system has been installed as well to accommodate two pilots. More composite materials have been used in order to reduce the weight and to strengthen the structure. *JF-17B* is reportedly controlled by a new 3-axis digital FBW system replacing the old analog system. The aircraft is equipped with the same KLJ-7 PD fire-control radar and retain the same BVR as well as precision air-to-ground strike capabilities as *JF-17* Block II. As the result *JF-17B* represents a very attractive option to foreign customers with limited budget and resources. Its length is 14.5m, height is 4.6m, TO weight is 9.4t, max external load is 4.6t. A model of the aircraft was first unveiled at the 2013 Paris Airshow by CATIC. The development started officially in 2014. The 01 prototype of *JF-17B* was constructed in December 2016 and conducted its first taxiing test on April 21, 2017. The *JF-17B* BC0001 prototype conducted its maiden flight on April 27, 2017. The *JF-17B* 02 prototype flew for the first time on December 7, 2017. Currently the 01 prototype (17-601) is conducting test flights at PAC. The 03 prototype conducted its maiden flight on August 3rd, 2018.
_- Last Updated 8/24/18





_

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## messiach

'The only way to break it is to have access to the key files.'


CriticalThought said:


> I Can you please elaborate which part is invalid?


Try with a virtual server on your board with different versions of OS.


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## Dazzler

messiach said:


> The only way to break it is to have access to the key files.



Slightly off topic but worth sharing..

In a recent conversation, a GDP friend revealed that the jf-17 houses undisclosed EW package from a European country. The block 2 version had the f-16 blk 52 in trouble multiple times during BVR mock simulations. At the moment, thunder pilots are having an upper hand over the blk 52 jockeys in terms of A-A kills.

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## Beethoven

Dazzler said:


> Slightly off topic but worth sharing..
> 
> In a recent conversation, a GDP friend revealed that the jf-17 houses undisclosed EW package from a European country. The block 2 version had the f-16 blk 52 in trouble multiple times during BVR mock simulations. At the moment, thunder pilots are having an upper hand over the blk 52 jockeys in terms of A-A kills.


last time i heard the thunder had an EW package from Indra of Spain


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## Dazzler

Beethoven said:


> last time i heard the thunder had an EW package from Indra of Spain



Same here, but there were rumors that another one was selected for testing purposes but it is not confirmed.

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## denel

CriticalThought said:


> I would love to learn. Can you please elaborate which part is invalid?


Please read cryptography and network security book by Tanenbaum to start. it is a good introduction to this field. Next go to NIST to get additional materials. You have to understand various layers.


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## CriticalThought

messiach said:


> 'The only way to break it is to have access to the key files.'
> 
> Try with a virtual server on your board with different versions of OS.



Which is why I initially wrote (emphasis added):



> *Properly implemented SSH* is extremely hard to break


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Dazzler said:


> Slightly off topic but worth sharing..
> 
> In a recent conversation, a GDP friend revealed that the jf-17 houses undisclosed EW package from a European country. The block 2 version had the f-16 blk 52 in trouble multiple times during BVR mock simulations. At the moment, thunder pilots are having an upper hand over the blk 52 jockeys in terms of A-A kills.


There are several options, e.g. Indra ALQ-500 (Spain), Elettronica ELT-568 and EDGE (Italy), and even an option in Belarus. Note: the Elettronica stuff are both ITAR free.


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## salman-1

Dazzler said:


> Slightly off topic but worth sharing..
> 
> In a recent conversation, a GDP friend revealed that the jf-17 houses undisclosed EW package from a European country. The block 2 version had the f-16 blk 52 in trouble multiple times during BVR mock simulations. At the moment, thunder pilots are having an upper hand over the blk 52 jockeys in terms of A-A kills.


I also had some info on it. The ew package is of French origin, which was officially denied as some sanctions prone equipment. But alternate arrangements are always there with some good bucks in hand.

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## Thorough Pro

Why do we need to divulge all the details of secret equipment and confidential deals?


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## alee92nawaz

Ek


Dazzler said:


> Slightly off topic but worth sharing..
> 
> In a recent conversation, a GDP friend revealed that the jf-17 houses undisclosed EW package from a European country. The block 2 version had the f-16 blk 52 in trouble multiple times during BVR mock simulations. At the moment, thunder pilots are having an upper hand over the blk 52 jockeys in terms of A-A kills.


Elaborate on this more please. Explain bit more if possible


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## Dazzler

alee92nawaz said:


> Ek
> 
> Elaborate on this more please. Explain bit more if possible



Not possible, shared all i was told.

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## fatman17

Dazzler said:


> Slightly off topic but worth sharing..
> 
> In a recent conversation, a GDP friend revealed that the jf-17 houses undisclosed EW package from a European country. The block 2 version had the f-16 blk 52 in trouble multiple times during BVR mock simulations. At the moment, thunder pilots are having an upper hand over the blk 52 jockeys in terms of A-A kills.


Italy


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## Dazzler

fatman17 said:


> Italy



Must be from Leonardo?

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## Chimgathar




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## The Eagle

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1033982180517715974

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## fatman17

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1033693138710409216JF17 in Poland

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## araz

fatman17 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1033693138710409216JF17 in Poland


Yuk na shud do shud! I did not know there would be 2 of them. Nyways it is a good diplomatic gesture and will raise the international profile of the JFT.
A


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## Thorough Pro

To be honest there was nothing "dazzling" in Thunder's flying display it was rather mediocre at best. It was disappointing to see the same run they have been doing since their first appearance in China in 2010. Compare the thunder manoeuvring with Grippen in the same show. While the Grippen seems to be in a constant manoeuver smoothly transitioning from one manoeuver to the other in a tight envelope, Thunder, on the other hand, does a 5 mile run to show one mediocre left turn, then another 5 mile run to show inverted flight, then another 5 mile run to show a climb etc. Not sure it's the jet or the pilot or maybe both. Instead of trying to appear like Tom Cruise, PAF pilots should up their game and let their manoeuvering and plane handling do the talking. 

JAS39 Grippen





JF17 Thunder

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## fatman17



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## Ahmet Pasha

They are brought up in rote learning Pakistani school. And their parents live in a different century so these Pakistani pilots dont have enough freedom of thought for them to be able to able to take the initiative and pioneer something new.


Thorough Pro said:


> To be honest there was nothing "dazzling" in Thunder's flying display it was rather mediocre at best. It was disappointing to see the same run they have been doing since their first appearance in China in 2010. Compare the thunder manoeuvring with Grippen in the same show. While the Grippen seems to be in a constant manoeuver smoothly transitioning from one manoeuver to the other in a tight envelop, Thunder on the other hand does a 5 mile run to show one mediocre left turn, then another 5 mile run to show inverted flight, then another 5 mile run to show a climb etc. Not sure it's the jet or the pilot or maybe both. Instead of trying to appear like Tom Cruise, PAF pilots should up their game and let their manoeuvering and plane handling do the talking.
> 
> JAS39 Grippen
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JF17 Thunder


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## Thorough Pro

Nah, I don't think that's the reason.



Ahmet Pasha said:


> They are brought up in rote learning Pakistani school. And their parents live in a different century so these Pakistani pilots dont have enough freedom of thought for them to be able to able to take the initiative and pioneer something new.


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## CriticalThought

Thorough Pro said:


> To be honest there was nothing "dazzling" in Thunder's flying display it was rather mediocre at best. It was disappointing to see the same run they have been doing since their first appearance in China in 2010. Compare the thunder manoeuvring with Grippen in the same show. While the Grippen seems to be in a constant manoeuver smoothly transitioning from one manoeuver to the other in a tight envelope, Thunder, on the other hand, does a 5 mile run to show one mediocre left turn, then another 5 mile run to show inverted flight, then another 5 mile run to show a climb etc. Not sure it's the jet or the pilot or maybe both. Instead of trying to appear like Tom Cruise, PAF pilots should up their game and let their manoeuvering and plane handling do the talking.
> 
> JAS39 Grippen
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JF17 Thunder



My Polish friend disagrees. He took a look and went "That's cool".

That said, the display will always be scripted and limited. Such is the nature of displays by professionals. I really want to see a mock dogfight between Thunder and Viper as the display - not gonna happen!


----------



## ghazi52



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## ghazi52



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## Path-Finder

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1035535352109387778

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## Amigator

Dazzler said:


> Slightly off topic but worth sharing..
> 
> In a recent conversation, a GDP friend revealed that the jf-17 houses undisclosed EW package from a European country. The block 2 version had the f-16 blk 52 in trouble multiple times during BVR mock simulations. At the moment, thunder pilots are having an upper hand over the blk 52 jockeys in terms of A-A kills.


If true, its really impressive!


----------



## SherDil

What about Air Shows on PAF Air Bases on 6th Sep ??
Any update


----------



## Arsalan

So here,


Dash said:


> Apologies to bulldoze your area of influence but this kinda caught my attention.
> 
> So... you are sure about it like you salvaged Italian M 109s?


and this was the post you quoted:


Arsalan said:


> yup, have been hearing this for some 5 6 years now, some day, it is BOUND to happen



My question, as you asked me to put it as a question.

DO YOU THINK THAT PAF WILL NEVER BUY A NEW PLANE,,, EVER?



Secondly, you mentioned "you are sure about it like you salvaged Italian M 109s". I did not understood what you meant by this, referring to some post i made or are you saying that M109s were never inducted or what?


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## Path-Finder

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1036557063139287040


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## HRK

Path-Finder said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1036557063139287040


nope the first but apparently 6th JF-17 from the initial batch of 8 JF-17, previously we were aware about the overhaul of three JF-17 till March-17 in Pakistan

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## salman-1

Only 3 are being overhauled there. Read the banner.





It's pac rather.


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## volatile

At what interval we need to overhaul it ,also chances are these are 2007 models so 11 years not a bad 


salman-1 said:


> Only 3 are being overhauled there. Read the banner.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's pac rather.


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## HRK

volatile said:


> At what interval we need to overhaul it


for blk-I https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/jf-1...ighter-thread-7.427560/page-369#post-10760322


volatile said:


> also chances are these are 2007 models so 11 years not a bad


yes 8 first came from China PAF as part of SBP PAC start its production in March-2009 and first JF-17 built in Pakistan was 09-111 with only 20% share of in-house manufacturing


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## salman-1

Frankly speaking the flight hrs mentioned 7-800hr doesn't match the time period for an overhaul. If 200 on average a year which is also very low for a new aircraft, which goes a lot of flight tests, training, weapons integration, pilot training etc 10 years simply makes out 2000 hrs. Paf might have used or changed engine shafts and other moving parts with a better quality materials for longer life span.
One example is of engine harnesses imported first from France and then later PAC actually set up the plant for it. All was for Jf17. Other developments might be secret.


----------



## GriffinsRule

Its also likely that this is a pattern aircraft to put down procedures in tandem with CAC of doing a complete overhaul. The prior ones performed in PAC might have been as extensive as this one (my speculation here) and hence the reason this is news worthy. 
Either case, PAF was bound to have to overhaul its fleet at some point and hopefully they have factored in the capacity and capabilities of PAC to run both the production line as well as the overhaul of jets in parallel and actually planned for it. Given the production of newer aircraft has atleast another ten year run ahead of it, and we are planning to start the Azm project down the line, they ought to train and hire a sizeable workforce for sustained operations.

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## messiach

Correct info but additional reasons exist.


GriffinsRule said:


> Its also likely that this is a pattern aircraft to put down procedures in tandem with CAC of doing a complete overhaul.


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## blinder

HRK said:


> for blk-I https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/jf-1...ighter-thread-7.427560/page-369#post-10760322
> 
> yes 8 first came from China PAF as part of SBP PAC start its production in March-2009 and first JF-17 built in Pakistan was 09-111 with only 20% share of in-house manufacturing
> View attachment 496344



09-111 was marked FC10011
Does this mean it is from the pre production series too?






I always thought that only 8 SBP were FC1 0001 to FC1 0008 and then FC1 0101 onward for Block I?
With 09-112 being FC1 0104, you would expect 09-111 to be FC1 0103...

Or is this a painter's mistake


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## HRK

blinder said:


> 09-111 was marked FC10011
> Does this mean it is from the pre production series too?
> 
> View attachment 496821



Chinese style nomenclature for JF-17 we have seen many such examples such as
Serial Production *SP*-37 = Fighter China-1 *FC1*0137 (Chinese)

For PAF JF-17 12-137








*
FC1*0232=JF-17 232


















blinder said:


> I always thought that only 8 SBP were FC1 0001 to FC1 0008 and then FC1 0101 onward for Block I?
> With 09-112 being FC1 0104, you would expect 09-111 to be FC1 0103...
> 
> Or is this a painter's mistake


for production run following table would be helpful 





China made Central back fuselage of JF-17 PAC make front Fuselage, wings (both) and vertical tail so all Chinese made sections are number in FC1 series like FC10xxx


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## fatman17

China is moving closer to mass-producing an improved engine with a longer lifespan and more power for its first aircraft carrier-based fighter jet, the J-15, according to military analysts.

They said technical problems had been overcome and the WS-10H turbofan engine now had the thrust and lifespan to put it on par with the AL-31F Russian-made engine that was initially used in the fighter jet.

Details about the WS-10H emerged after military sources told the South China Morning Post this week that a new and improved engine for China’s J-20 stealth fighter would be ready for mass production by the end of the year.

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## fatman17

RD93 requires a overhaul after 500 hours which is low when one compares with western power plants.


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## salman-1

fatman17 said:


> China is moving closer to mass-producing an improved engine with a longer lifespan and more power for its first aircraft carrier-based fighter jet, the J-15, according to military analysts.
> 
> They said technical problems had been overcome and the WS-10H turbofan engine now had the thrust and lifespan to put it on par with the AL-31F Russian-made engine that was initially used in the fighter jet.
> 
> Details about the WS-10H emerged after military sources told the South China Morning Post this week that a new and improved engine for China’s J-20 stealth fighter would be ready for mass production by the end of the year.


What's the life span of Al31F and what's ws10h will hold long for running. Please inform


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## khanasifm

fatman17 said:


> RD93 requires a overhaul after 500 hours which is low when one compares with western power plants.



Yes compared to western it’s low but it was report in Afm article 800 hours compared to f-7p/pg engine of 300 hours

Not sure about mirage engine but assuming it’s in same range as f-7


At the same time rd-93 is 1/3 the price of pw f-16 engine

I thinks comparing Russia. Or even European eqpt to US is not fair US leads the industry’s standards in performance

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## fatman17

salman-1 said:


> What's the life span of Al31F and what's ws10h will hold long for running. Please inform



1000+ hrs. is my guesstimate which would be a huge improvement over the past.


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## Windjammer

Guys, i don't want to sound like Hazrat Zarvan, but watching a defence day special documentary on HUM TV last night which entirely focused in detail on the manufacturing of JF-17 at PAC Kamra, i noticed at least one aircraft under build which appeared different from others as it supported a Black Radome, the camouflage was different colour and even the name ''Thunder'' below the cockpit was written in hi viz and different pattern.


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## GriffinsRule

Maybe for Nigerian AF

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## salman-1

fatman17 said:


> 1000+ hrs. is my guesstimate which would be a huge improvement over the past.


Just a thought may be a flight of any aircraft might be considered as one flight hour, it might be a a 30mln or 2hrs, as 7 to 800 hrs is not enough to fly for 10 years. As 800 hrs if Considered for Rd93, it Comes out to be 80hrs a year.


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## Sinnerman108

fatman17 said:


> 1000+ hrs. is my guesstimate which would be a huge improvement over the past.



Actually the AL31 itself is not the most reliable engine, and has lower than expected life.


----------



## Windjammer

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1038748149224013825


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## CriticalThought

Is there any Shaheen VII planned for 2018?

@Windjammer @Oscar @Bilal Khan (Quwa)


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## ghazi52

Quaid-e-Azam M.A. Jinnah with Asghar Khan at PAF Academy Risalpur in 1947-48 .

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## python-000

Jf-17, F-16 Jf-17 , F-16 Jf-17 , F-16 will PAF ever consider any other platform for its fighting fleet
PAF is so weak in terms of fighter plans to tackle 21st century challenges....


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## Knight Rider

python-000 said:


> Jf-17, F-16 Jf-17 , F-16 Jf-17 , F-16 will *PAF ever consider any other platform for its fighting fleet*
> PAF is so weak in terms of fighter plans to tackle 21st century challenges....



We all are frustrated on this issue of PAF as well as Army and Navy not getting new war machines.
PAF can always go for J-11Ds and J-10Cs. But we need good amount of money first for such a deal to happen with China. IK government is working on the corruption issues and economic issues as we speak. We will soon Insha Allah get the money we need to buy such equipment from China. But the deal should come with TOT agreement so that PAC can build one or both of the aircrafts (J-10 and J-11) at home, just like the JF-17.


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## python-000

Knight Rider said:


> We all are frustrated on this issue of PAF as well as Army and Navy not getting new war machines.
> PAF can always go for J-11Ds and J-10Cs. But we need good amount of money first for such a deal to happen with China. IK government is working on the corruption issues and economic issues as we speak. We will soon Insha Allah get the money we need to buy such equipment from China. But the deal should come with TOT agreement so that PAC can build one or both of the aircrafts (J-10 and J-11) at home, just like the JF-17.


Yes you are right & we hope for the Best for Pakistan INSHALLAH, beside that can we go for J-31 v2 !!!


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## Knight Rider

python-000 said:


> Yes you are right & we hope for the Best for Pakistan INSHALLAH, beside that can we go for *J-31 v2* !!!



Yes !!! FC-31 (J-31) will be build inside PAC just like JF-17 thunder. For this purpose PAF has already launch Project Azm. Project Azm is all about setting up facilities inside PAC to support FGFA project.

* Project AZM*
Aviation City’s evolution transforms PAC Kamra into a teaching industry by bridging itself with co-located Air University Campus. Entire infrastructure of production, upgrade/ overhaul, research & development, qualification and certification would be opened to the students of Air University, thus equipping them with higher academic knowledge and professional skills. These students would be fully fielded in all such disciplines under collaborative supervision of Air University faculty and engineering leadership of the factories.
The multi-discipline research team at Aviation Research, Indigenization & Development (AvRID) Centre will include an effective mix of highly qualified and experienced specialists, who would leverage industrial and academic potential available to Kamra. This would put together components of industry and academia to build a high-end research center to enhance indigenization capability.
AvRID (Aviation Research, Indigenization & Development) at Kamra is destined to be the embodiment of this aim.

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## Amigator

So according to indian media Rafale is 4th gen aircraft and according to IAF chief Pakistan's F-16 after MLU becomes 4.5th gen aircraft.

Indian Airforce Chief quoted "There are reasons (for that) because our neighbours are not sitting idle. Pakistan has upgraded F-16s and made them 4.5 generation as far as avionic electronics goes and is inducting JF-17 (from China) in large numbers."

READ FULL ARTICLE

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/raf...m-china-pak-air-chief-1915436#comments_result


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## TOPGUN

Knight Rider said:


> Yes !!! FC-31 (J-31) will be build inside PAC just like JF-17 thunder. For this purpose PAF has already launch Project Azm. Project Azm is all about setting up facilities inside PAC to support FGFA project.
> 
> * Project AZM*
> Aviation City’s evolution transforms PAC Kamra into a teaching industry by bridging itself with co-located Air University Campus. Entire infrastructure of production, upgrade/ overhaul, research & development, qualification and certification would be opened to the students of Air University, thus equipping them with higher academic knowledge and professional skills. These students would be fully fielded in all such disciplines under collaborative supervision of Air University faculty and engineering leadership of the factories.
> The multi-discipline research team at Aviation Research, Indigenization & Development (AvRID) Centre will include an effective mix of highly qualified and experienced specialists, who would leverage industrial and academic potential available to Kamra. This would put together components of industry and academia to build a high-end research center to enhance indigenization capability.
> AvRID (Aviation Research, Indigenization & Development) at Kamra is destined to be the embodiment of this aim.



We do know yet if it will be FC-31 ? or new aircraft in the making simply to early to state such news without clear shown facts regarding the aircraft.


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## Ahmet Pasha

He is just shytting bricks because Pakistan is successfully replacing its work horse jets. While India is struggling with lower operational squadrons than required and not being able to replace their workhorse jets.


Amigator said:


> So according to indian media Rafale is 4th gen aircraft and according to IAF chief Pakistan's F-16 after MLU becomes 4.5th gen aircraft.
> 
> Indian Airforce Chief quoted "There are reasons (for that) because our neighbours are not sitting idle. Pakistan has upgraded F-16s and made them 4.5 generation as far as avionic electronics goes and is inducting JF-17 (from China) in large numbers."
> 
> READ FULL ARTICLE
> 
> https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/raf...m-china-pak-air-chief-1915436#comments_result


----------



## salman-1

It's a mix fc31, as basic stealth design is supposedly OK. But twin engine is a costly option for greater numbers. So using single engine of J20 is gonna fill the gap well.


----------



## Ahmet Pasha

Can we get foreign customers/partners like F-35 programme??

This program should not be solely reliant on China. It should also have Turkish input as they could help us out in electronic/sensor/cyber aspect. After all they make fantastic subsytems and have been making F16 and F35 components for a very long time.

We can make this a cost effective F-35 with great export potential.


----------



## Windjammer

*Seems PAF has installed a new type of chafe and flare system on it's F-16 fleet.*


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## SherDil



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## Quwa

SherDil said:


> View attachment 499773


I wonder if the Kamra team's inspired by the Airbus FCAS? @Oscar @messiach

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## messiach

All i can say is i have seen the probable competing designs. I am more interested in what turbines can power this fighter.


Quwa said:


> I wonder if the Kamra team's inspired by the Airbus FCAS? @Oscar @messiach

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## SQ8

Windjammer said:


> *Seems PAF has installed a new type of chafe and flare system on it's F-16 fleet.*
> 
> View attachment 499730


No. Just different programs you can put into the dispenser. Same dispensar on all F-16C/D’s.



Quwa said:


> I wonder if the Kamra team's inspired by the Airbus FCAS? @Oscar @messiach


Might be inspired but suffice to say that two of the designs in play are rather unconventional. As @messiach put it, its more about the engines then the airframe right now.

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## denel

Oscar said:


> No. Just different programs you can put into the dispenser. Same dispensar on all F-16C/D’s.
> 
> 
> Might be inspired but suffice to say that two of the designs in play are rather unconventional. As @messiach put it, its more about the engines then the airframe right now.


Agreed. achiles heal is the engine as we have seen with jf-17 program


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## Army research

Oscar said:


> No. Just different programs you can put into the dispenser. Same dispensar on all F-16C/D’s.
> 
> 
> Might be inspired but suffice to say that two of the designs in play are rather unconventional. As @messiach put it, its more about the engines then the airframe right now.


Last when I talked with a person working on thus a year and a half ago he mentioned the same issue, but between then and now the Chinese have finally declared their domestic engine for the J20 fully op, 
Hopefully this works


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## Windjammer

Oscar said:


> No. Just different programs you can put into the dispenser. Same dispensar on all F-16C/D’s.


Seems the switch over is a recent factor since we use to see individual release of flares....the same seems to apply on the JF-17 as well.

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## SQ8

Windjammer said:


> Seems the switch over is a recent factor since we use to see individual release of flares....the same seems to apply on the JF-17 as well.


Just a program setting - 
Can be 2 flare 6 chaff - 6 chaff 6 flare - continuous dispense etc

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## khanasifm

Oscar said:


> Just a program setting -
> Can be 2 flare 6 chaff - 6 chaff 6 flare - continuous dispense etc



For display purposes chaff ?? Flare are bright and show item chaff will not be part of show display ??


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## SQ8

khanasifm said:


> For display purposes chaff ?? Flare are bright and show item chaff will not be part of show display ??


Chaff can be taken out of a program, the program is upto the customer. We can request our own programs for the ALE-47.


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## Amigator

Oscar said:


> Chaff can be taken out of a program, the program is upto the customer. We can request our own programs for the ALE-47.


Sir do we have any authentic numbers about chaffes, flares carring capacity of JFT?


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## SQ8

Amigator said:


> Sir do we have any authentic numbers about chaffes, flares carring capacity of JFT?


25 25 of each I think or maybe its 25 50.
@Bilal Khan (Quwa) if only that leonardo DRFM decoy was available.

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## razgriz19

khanasifm said:


> Yes compared to western it’s low but it was report in Afm article 800 hours compared to f-7p/pg engine of 300 hours
> 
> Not sure about mirage engine but assuming it’s in same range as f-7
> 
> 
> At the same time rd-93 is 1/3 the price of pw f-16 engine
> 
> I thinks comparing Russia. Or even European eqpt to US is not fair US leads the industry’s standards in performance


Soviet could've made a better engine if they wanted to. Their doctrine was based on numbers rather than quality hence the low cost of the engine.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Oscar said:


> 25 25 of each I think or maybe its 25 50.
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) if only that leonardo DRFM decoy was available.


Leonardo was marketing it for the JF-17, but I guess end-user restrictions (i.e. the 'don't let China see' clause) and costs (it might be tricky dealing with this thing, i.e. knowing how many you need, the shelf-life, etc) might be issues. 

http://www.leonardocompany.com/-/brite-eye

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## khanasifm

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Leonardo was marketing it for the JF-17, but I guess end-user restrictions (i.e. the 'don't let China see' clause) and costs (it might be tricky dealing with this thing, i.e. knowing how many you need, the shelf-life, etc) might be issues.
> 
> http://www.leonardocompany.com/-/brite-eye
> 
> View attachment 500217



This magazine a little different the current magazine on jf shown in various programs on video has 18 round per magazine and 4 total magazines two on each side 
The magazine shape can always be adjusted accordingly as jf magazine is not rectangle

Plus two different size which can use existing magazine/dispenser 
http://www.leonardocompany.com/docu.../Britecloud_ECM_LQ_mm08222_.pdf?download_file


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## khanasifm

Lower left magazine for chaff/flares

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## khanasifm

Simple flare for aim-9x ??

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## Talon

CriticalThought said:


> Is there any Shaheen VII planned for 2018?
> 
> @Windjammer @Oscar @Bilal Khan (Quwa)


Saffron is still in progress



Windjammer said:


> Seems the switch over is a recent factor since we use to see individual release of flares....the same seems to apply on the JF-17 as well.


Number of flares dispensed can be set through settings...PAF normally uses single flare during displays..
The prgm and mode switches are used for this purpose... Programs are set in Data Cartridge.

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## fatman17

KAMRA: JF-17 production capacity of Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) reaches 25 aircraft per annum. The Pakistan Air Force currently operates 101 JF-17s, with 149 more on order. https://t.co/VmhiZjUSAF

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## Path-Finder

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1046795146849914880

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## Globalwarrior

Nice on the ground 
But [emoji7] in the air


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## SQ8

Path-Finder said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1046795146849914880


It’s their national ignorance

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## Path-Finder

Oscar said:


> It’s their national ignorance



No, LCA is the crown jewel of aviation.


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## SQ8

Path-Finder said:


> No, LCA is the crown jewel of aviation.


Its national character- just leave it at that.


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## Trailer23

I don't know if i'm off topic over here because I truly don't know the politics involved in an agreement between two countries but am left to ponder on issues.

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articles-view/release/3/41949/sweden-won’t-sell-gripen-jets-to-pakistan-(july-8).html
Now this was an article from *Press Trust of India* (_largest news agency in India_) dated: 7th July, 2004
In it details (then) President Pervez Musharraf's visit to Sweden and how the Swedes were not interested in selling weapons or weapon-related to Pakistan. I recall there being some influence back in the day, but couldn't locate any source material.

Fast forward to a few years back, when we were negotiations with the US to purchase EIGHT F-16's and our neighbor screamed that we would use those against them.

Why is it that its okay for India to go out and place orders for 126 jets (and later converting it 36)?

Why is it that Pakistan never raises the issue on the International Forum and raises the same points?

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## khanasifm

fatman17 said:


> KAMRA: JF-17 production capacity of Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) reaches 25 aircraft per annum. The Pakistan Air Force currently operates 101 JF-17s, with 149 more on order. https://t.co/VmhiZjUSAF
> View attachment 502301



No such news from Official channel ?? Or pac website or news ??


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## GriffinsRule

We can raise the issue, except no one will pay attention. India gets more levy because of their market and purchasing power. If we were in a position to order billions of dollars of weapons and good annually, it wouldn't be a hassle for us either.

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## Chimgathar

250 JF-17s, Why PAF wants all eggs in one basket?


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## araz

Chimgathar said:


> 250 JF-17s, Why PAF wants all eggs in one basket?


because these are OUR eggs.
if you recall the country is broke. In these circumstances we need a cheap yet effective workhorse taking pressure away from the more expensive foreign buys (For the moment the F16s). Secondly we dont have anyone at the moment in the current international scene that wants to give us fighter planes at a cost and for a loan which we can afford(this in itself being debatable) that can suitably counter the IAF purchases. We have therefore gone the indegenous route to make a fighter with help from friendly countries putting up with a lot of pressure to abandon the project. This has laid down a foundation of a whole aviation industry in Pak land which is commendable.
A

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## CriticalThought

araz said:


> because these are OUR eggs.
> if you recall the country is broke. In these circumstances we need a cheap yet effective workhorse taking pressure away from the more expensive foreign buys (For the moment the F16s). Secondly we dont have anyone at the moment in the current international scene that wants to give us fighter planes at a cost and for a loan which we can afford(this in itself being debatable) that can suitably counter the IAF purchases. We have therefore gone the indegenous route to make a fighter with help from friendly countries putting up with a lot of pressure to abandon the project. This has laid down a foundation of a whole aviation industry in Pak land which is commendable.
> A



Actually, in this case, putting eggs in multiple baskets is more risky. Thus, your first line "Because these are OUR eggs" is correct - it's our eggs, and our basket. You put eggs in different baskets, and then one of the baskets has a problem you can't fix locally. Now, you can be held hostage to sanctions, higher price, delays etc.

PAF would be guilty of putting all eggs in one basket IF Thunder was the only program it was pursuing. The fact of the matter is, while 250 Thunders are being produced, the Thunder program also has the potential for great foreign exchange income, and at the same time, PAF is investing in Project Azm and fifth gen fighter. Meanwhile, the F-16s and Mirages are also being kept in top form.

If there was any immediate need for national security purposes, there should be no question that need would be fulfilled. We DO have options in terms of Chinese J11, J10, J16 etc. and for national security money would be arranged one way or the other. If we see no foreign fighter being procured, then the reality of the situation is that Indian capabilities do not warrant such investment.

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## messiach

With block3, FC1 multirole capability would be segregated into extended, extended-diversified & diversified roles. You would be able to see a combination within one squadron.



Chimgathar said:


> 250 JF-17s, Why PAF wants all eggs in one basket?

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## araz

messiach said:


> With block3, FC1 multirole capability would be segregated into extended, extended-diversified & diversified roles. You would be able to see a combination within one squadron.


can you elaborate this a bit further to be clear. Obviously explain what ever you feel comfortable explaining.
Regards
A

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## Trailer23

Well something is certainly brewing up across the border...and all of a sudden 'Pakistan' seems to have something to do with it - or so some claim.

Now this is a video I recently edited out of a *India Today* show titled '_News Today_'. Its a 3min vid where the host is grilling the BJP Party of what Pakistan has to do with the _Rafale deal_ and that playing the _'Pakistan' card_ is desperate sign prior to each Election.


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## ziaulislam

Trailer23 said:


> Well something is certainly brewing up across the border...and all of a sudden 'Pakistan' seems to have something to do with it - or so some claim.
> 
> Now this is a video I recently edited out of a *India Today* show titled '_News Today_'. Its a 3min vid where the host is grilling the BJP Party of what Pakistan has to do with the _Rafale deal_ and that playing the _'Pakistan' card_ is desperate sign prior to each Election.


how do you think so many different hindhus are united ..its the boggy man fear which is pakistan

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## syed_yusuf

i agree and the more i see mirage saga, the more i get fascinated by the PAf and PAC and all other organizations. having 76 F-16 in top notch condition it a breathing space add to it another 100 4th gen JF-17 and PAF looks very formidable. this is not it, the way PAF have upgraded and use Mirage is a story of its own. like 2 squadrons of rose3, 2 squadrons of rose1 and one anti ship squadron really help tier one line of defense that is F-16 and JFT. PAF is really a force on its own. i hope project AZM takes shape sooner than later so that it can replace all legacy mirages and F-16's over next decade. there is another option of extending Mirage rose 3 and PA2/3 with rose 5 upgrade to have 3 plus may be 2 more squadrons to make a 2nd tier quality force of 5 squadrons or upgraded rose 5 miarge 5. it all depends upon project AZM and its progress. end of the day there is so much rebuild could be done to these age old fighter.

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## messiach

Lets wait for block3. Significant changes ahead.


araz said:


> can you elaborate this a bit further to be clear. Obviously explain what ever you feel comfortable explaining.
> Regards
> A

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## Maxpane

Exciting


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## Amigator




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## ghazi52

Prime Minister Nawabzada Liaquat Ali Khan and the Shah of Iran viewing the air display at Pakistan Air Force College in Risalpur. The College dates back to 1910 when a cantonment was established within its premises. During the First World War, members of the Royal Flying Corps were sent there for training. On August 15, 1947, it officially became an airbase of the Royal Pakistan Air Force.

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## Inception-06

@tps77 as you said the crotale is still active, here some snapshots from bases in Sargodha and Lahore!

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## Tps43

Inception-06 said:


> @tps77 as you said the crotale is still active, here some snapshots from bases in Sargodha and Lahore!
> 
> View attachment 503495


No 459SCU sqn Hq at Lhr and it's one flight is at mushaf as well
Thanks for the tag.
Crotales are here for atleast 2028

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## khanasifm

tps77 said:


> No 459SCU sqn Hq at Lhr and it's one flight is at mushaf as well
> Thanks for the tag.
> Crotales are here for atleast 2028



Paf had various version of crotale 1000/2000/4000 series they also picked up batteries from Libya along with mirages per paf book which were older version and used it for spares during rebuilt 

I think 4000 series which are
More modern and support dual method i.e. radar as well electro optics to track and engage plus data link are still active while older version are replaced by spada 2k but now there are xx Sam sqn with 2 or more flight each in sqn with each flight has a battery of Sams

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## Tps43

4 sam sqns of crotale being active and yes majority of them are 4000 series and ex libiyans
from 57 to 60 all are crotales sqns and all of them have atleast 3 battaries

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## polanski

I found this fantastic photo of PAF. I wish to see more of this near future. I hope Imran Khan does more for women of Pakistan.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

polanski said:


> I found this fantastic photo of PAF. I wish to see more of this near future. I hope Imran Khan does more women of Pakistan.


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## fatman17

Exclusive News:

@packamra has signed MoU with @Chengdu_China for Co-production of 48 Wing Loong II MALE UCAVs.
The first locally produced Wing Loong II will be delivered to PAF within 1 year after contract signing, with a capacity of 12 units per year. https://t.co/0HBSALGd0g

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## ziaulislam

fatman17 said:


> Exclusive News:
> 
> @packamra has signed MoU with @Chengdu_China for Co-production of 48 Wing Loong II MALE UCAVs.
> The first locally produced Wing Loong II will be delivered to PAF within 1 year after contract signing, with a capacity of 12 units per year. https://t.co/0HBSALGd0g
> View attachment 503602


no reliable source yet


----------



## Maxpane

Is it confirm ?


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## fatman17

ziaulislam said:


> no reliable source yet


Contract has to be signed


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## fatman17

Wing Loong II

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## ziaulislam

fatman17 said:


> Wing Loong II
> View attachment 503782
> View attachment 503783
> View attachment 503784


Intersting to see its cost vs fighter jet cost

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## Ahmer Rana

can someone provide me information about Flt lt Mehmood A butt shaheed. He was martyred on 17 september. Actually he belongs from my area. I searched on internet about him but could not find appropriate information.
Thanks in advance


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## TOTUU

Maxpane said:


> Is it confirm ?


----------



## fatman17

Turkish F-16s are on their way to Pakistan for joint military exercise "ACES Meet-2018" with Pakistan Air Force which will be held at Mushaf Airbase in Sargodha.

#PakTurkDostiZindabad https://t.co/iOGW6CO11o


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## fatman17

Jf17A Thunder [emoji298] with a Quadcopter UAV in King Abdullah Air Base [emoji1210][emoji1191] https://t.co/fYj8rTyAd5

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## Maxpane

fatman17 said:


> Jf17A Thunder [emoji298] with a Quadcopter UAV in King Abdullah Air Base [emoji1210][emoji1191] https://t.co/fYj8rTyAd5


Beauty


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## Army research

fatman17 said:


> Jf17A Thunder [emoji298] with a Quadcopter UAV in King Abdullah Air Base [emoji1210][emoji1191] https://t.co/fYj8rTyAd5


That's a DJI cinematography drone , used in F1 races and other high speed races , quite expensive ;
Not a military uav


----------



## Windjammer

Italian air chief visits AHQ.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1049241255102898176

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## ghazi52

President Alvi confers Nishan-e-Imtiaz upon Italian air force chief

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## mingle

It's just Hello or we may get EF Italy have stored them.


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## CHI RULES

Inception-06 said:


> @tps77 as you said the crotale is still active, here some snapshots from bases in Sargodha and Lahore!
> 
> View attachment 503495



The news was there that crotale is upgraded by Pakistani engineers domestically. Can u please explain upgraded cotale features.

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## Tps43

CHI RULES said:


> The news was there that crotale is upgraded by Pakistani engineers domestically. Can u please explain upgraded cotale features.


Along with thales from year 2010 till 2012

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## Inception-06

CHI RULES said:


> The news was there that crotale is upgraded by Pakistani engineers domestically. Can u please explain upgraded cotale features.



I only know that years ago the missile stockpile was upgraded and the shelf life was extended!

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## ZAC1

What if these old systems be given to PA for armoured protection.


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## Tps43

ZAC1 said:


> What if these old systems be given to PA for armoured protection.


PA have FM 90s
They are upgraded copies of crotales

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## khanasifm

https://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/falco-uav/


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## hassan1




----------



## BHarwana

China pakistan drone deal hitting the main stream media now


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1049656225116250112


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## fatman17

Windjammer said:


> Italian air chief visits AHQ.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1049241255102898176


EFT

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## CriticalThought

fatman17 said:


> EFT



That is a VERY BIG statement!!!!!

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## mingle

fatman17 said:


> EFT


I was guessing same we need third platform when F16 chapter is closed gir good. EF used and new fits the Bill.plus we don't need to look at Russian option no need to put hands in American Hornest net.
Long range SAMS we can look at Italy too. Third option is better than tussle between Russia and US.

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## TOPGUN

fatman17 said:


> EFT



fatman17, bro you cant be serious ??


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## Quwa

fatman17 said:


> EFT





TOPGUN said:


> fatman17, bro you cant be serious ??


Can't tell if @fatman17 is just pulling legs here, but for clarity, it's worth noting that the only thing the Italian Air Force can offer are Typhoon T1s. I think there are around 18~24 of them available for sale for around $60-80 m each (with remaining spare parts, etc). But keep in mind, they have limited A2G and would basically serve in the A2A role.

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## Tps43

Quwa said:


> Can't tell if @fatman17 is just pulling legs here, but for clarity, it's worth noting that the only thing the Italian Air Force can offer are Typhoon T1s. I think there are around 18~24


Can they be upgraded to T3?


----------



## fatman17

TOPGUN said:


> fatman17, bro you cant be serious ??


Initial discussion s have taken place. Lots of hurdles to overcome.

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## Maxpane

Interesting news sir


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## TOPGUN

fatman17 said:


> Initial discussion s have taken place. Lots of hurdles to overcome.



If this is true then wow that's just wonderful news but like you said lots of hurdles ahead !!

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## Quwa

tps77 said:


> Can they be upgraded to T3?


Nope. In fact, the T1 and T3 would basically have to be maintained as two different aircraft platforms.

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## HRK

tps77 said:


> Can they be upgraded to T3?


nope T-1 consist of block-2 and block-5, from T-2 new hardware standard was adopted

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## Tps43

Quwa said:


> Nope. In fact, the T1 and T3 would basically have to be maintained as two different aircraft platforms.


So If for example Paf buys t 1 how can they'll be used?
I think maybe for AD duties or to cover mirages/jft when they are on offensive missions?



fatman17 said:


> Initial discussion s have taken place. Lots of hurdles to overcome.


So thats why Nishan e Imtiaz was given



HRK said:


> nope T-1 consist of block-2 and block-5, from T-2 new hardware standard was adopted


So for used EFT we will have to look for T 2?


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## mingle

Quwa said:


> Can't tell if @fatman17 is just pulling legs here, but for clarity, it's worth noting that the only thing the Italian Air Force can offer are Typhoon T1s. I think there are around 18~24 of them available for sale for around $60-80 m each (with remaining spare parts, etc). But keep in mind, they have limited A2G and would basically serve in the A2A role.


Bilal they can't be MLU s like F16s to trench 3? they r worth than SU family but should avoid Russian purchase stay away from theior tussle with America.

24 to 30 would be good numbers can replace two legacy Sqd of Mirages or F7 or we can make them as anti ship role.


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## Quwa

tps77 said:


> So If for example Paf buys t 1 how can they'll be used?
> I think maybe for AD duties or to cover mirages/jft when they are on offensive missions?


Basically. Typhoon T1s to provide top cover to Mirage ROSE and JF-17, the latter deploying SOWs.



mingle said:


> Bilal they can't be MLU s like F16s to trench 3? But they r worth than SU family but should avoid Russian purchase stay away from theior tussle with America.


Nope. The T1 wasn't build for A2G in mind. For credible A2G/AShW the PAF would need the T3 and, the spending for that (purchasing + maintenance) is nearly $300 m per jet. Besides loans from each consortium member, we'd need a 50%+ offset (via targeted investments in the R&D that will lose out to fund a Typhoon purchase) to even have a chance at a T3 purchase these days.

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## mingle

Quwa said:


> Basically. Typhoon T1s to provide top cover to Mirage ROSE and JF-17, the latter deploying SOWs.
> 
> 
> Nope. The T1 wasn't build for A2G in mind. For credible A2G/AShW the PAF would need the T3 and, the spending for that (purchasing + maintenance) is nearly $300 m per jet. Besides loans from each consortium member, we'd need a 50%+ offset (via targeted investments in the R&D that will lose out to fund a Typhoon purchase) to even have a chance at a T3 purchase these days.


We can do that by buying trench 3 in small badges? It's a good platform. Good news if it's true


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## Tps43

Quwa said:


> Basically. Typhoon T1s to provide top cover to Mirage ROSE and JF-17, the latter deploying SOWs.


Yeah that was my opinion also.
Lets hope something big comes out this time. But it will be impossible without getting money from NS and zardari which they looted!

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## Windjammer

Albeit the PAF checked out the EFT as far back as 2005 when the then ACM visited the RAF and flew in the type.
Although the ACM politely said, ''It's too modern for us'' but back then they had serious issues with it's voice command system.

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## mingle

tps77 said:


> Yeah that was my opinion also.
> Lets hope something big comes out this time. But it will be impossible without getting money from NS and zardari which they looted!


I think Spain has stored them as well we can get those it's worth of money stop gap for 5th generation meantime if we get hand on used F16s it's bonus.

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## Tps43

mingle said:


> I think Spain has stored them as well we can get those it's worth of money stop gap for 5th generation meantime if we get hand on used F16s it's bonus.


They will bring qualitative advantage to paf but problem is $$$

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## CriticalThought

Quwa said:


> Basically. Typhoon T1s to provide top cover to Mirage ROSE and JF-17, the latter deploying SOWs.
> 
> 
> Nope. The T1 wasn't build for A2G in mind. For credible A2G/AShW the PAF would need the T3 and, the spending for that (purchasing + maintenance) is nearly $300 m per jet. Besides loans from each consortium member, we'd need a 50%+ offset (via targeted investments in the R&D that will lose out to fund a Typhoon purchase) to even have a chance at a T3 purchase these days.



Sir, this aircraft will become a money pit. From spares to upgrades, the Europeans will milk us from out balls.

For top cover just pair RD-93 with Mirage 3/5 and upgrade the airframe with modern manufacturing, composites etc.

The real thing is the weapons + avionics. Now, even if we somehow acquire these, what is the guarantee that India will not be provided with codes/jammers to counter these? The knowledge for these is distributed throughout Europe and India/America/Israel have significant inroads there. All in all, a very, very bad idea.

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## mingle

tps77 said:


> They will bring qualitative advantage to paf but problem is $$$


50 or 60 million a copy not a big issue we will be ok can repay with 100 million a yr but look what we getting at what price indian rafale will fizzle out before they land in India.
Plus we should lobby Americans for used F16s as well Two Sqd of used F16 with two Sqd of EF gave us enough time to fix economy and look at fifth generation.

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## Tps43

mingle said:


> 50 or 60 million a copy not a big issue we will be ok can repay with 100 million a yr but look what we getting at what price indian rafale will fizzle out before they land in India.


LoL yes u r right

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## Inception-06

tps77 said:


> Yeah that was my opinion also.
> Lets hope something big comes out this time. But it will be impossible without getting money from NS and zardari which they looted!



The money can be brought only back if we can rule and control Pakistan like the North Korean regime does it and the KP in China!

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## Tps43

Inception-06 said:


> The money can be brought only back if we can rule and control Pakistan like the North Korean regime does it and the KP in China!


Or KSA model?

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## CriticalThought

Royal Blue007 said:


> how about leasing few squadrons of J11. Is it an option to consider. Does it make any sense?



What's your concern with this?


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## Windjammer



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## Knight Rider

We are still lacking offensive role assets which we can use to strike deep inside our enemy territory . We need a heavy fighters and stealth bombers or drones for this role.


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## Ultima Thule

Royal Blue007 said:


> Is it yes or No ?


Not possible without a permission from Russia @Royal Blue007


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## CriticalThought

Royal Blue007 said:


> Is it yes or No ?



None of your concern.


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## Inception-06

tps77 said:


> Or KSA model?



KSA has Oil, they don't have any model. See what they do in China with corrupt politicians and generals, they strip them down till underwear and throw them in jail or hang them! China and North Korea control every inch and human of their land, it's not like in Pakistan, where Government decides to run a coal plant or school, while the plant is never built, and the schools are blown up. Pakistan needs control mechanisms like North Korea and China.


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## Tps43

Inception-06 said:


> KSA has Oil, they don't have any model, see what they do with politicians and corrupt generals, they strip them down, throw them in jail or hang them! China and North Korea control every inch and human of their land, it's not like in Pakistan, where Government decides to run a coal plant or school, while the plant is never built, and the schools are blown up. Pakistan needs control mechanisms like North Korea and China.


True.
Agreed , whats ur opinion on T 1s?

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## Ultima Thule

Royal Blue007 said:


> Its a *lease*


Still not not possible without Russian permission because design is Russian IP property @Royal Blue007


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## Windjammer

Royal Blue007 said:


> Is it yes or No ?
> 
> 
> 
> bravo


Save it for later, once UK was keen to sell the EFT to Pakistan.

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## Tps43

Windjammer said:


> Save it for later, once UK was keen to sell the EFT to Pakistan.


Only problem is Germany.

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## TOPGUN

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 504268



Wow love it bro hope this turns in to reality !!

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## Ultima Thule

tps77 said:


> Only problem is Germany.


Care to explain sir @tps77 ???

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## Windjammer

Royal Blue007 said:


> ok i will wait....starting right now,....
> 
> 
> J11 is not russian ip. ask any chinease


Yea, try not to get banned before that.


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## Inception-06

tps77 said:


> True.
> Agreed , whats ur opinion on T 1s?



To be realistic, we can't afford anymore the US and European fighters planes, better and right direction would be a customized Pakistani version of the J-10C, it could take the future role as an air superiority fighter. And please don't say the Jf-17 can do the same as the J-10C that's not true if so then the Chinese would have dropped the J-10C programme and mass co-produced the Jf-17 for their own air force.....

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## Tps43

pakistanipower said:


> Care to explain sir @tps77 ???


Eft is a joint project with italy uk and Germany partner in it.
With Germans we dont have strong mill relationship and they can likely block our purchase.

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## Tps43

Inception-06 said:


> To be realistic, we can't afford anymore the US and European fighters planes, better and right direction would be a customized Pakistani version of the J-10C, it could take the future role as an air superiority fighter. And please don't say the Jf-17 can do the same as the J-10C that's not true if so then the Chinese would have dropped the J-10C programme and mass co-produced the Jf-17 for their own air force...


So another type of russian engine?
Can pakistan afford this?

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## Inception-06

tps77 said:


> So another type of russian engine?
> Can pakistan afford this?



Buying a single engine is cheaper than a western fighter aircraft package with its spare parts and sanction risks!

J-10CPAK with Russian, engine and a western BVR missile!

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## Ultima Thule

tps77 said:


> So another type of russian engine?
> Can pakistan afford this?


They (PLAAF) already have 400+ WS-10 on various J-11 series of jets and some of J-10B/C, and recently they tested TVC version of WS-10 on i think J-10B @tps77

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## CriticalThought

Inception-06 said:


> Buying a single engine is cheaper than a western fighter aircraft package with its spare parts and sanction risks!
> 
> J-10CPAK with Russian, engine and a western BVR missile!



I like this idea!

But what I would like even better is latest SU-35 SM with Zhuk radar.

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## Ultima Thule

Inception-06 said:


> Buying a single engine is cheaper than a western fighter aircraft package with its spare parts and sanction risks!
> 
> J-10CPAK with Russian, engine and a western BVR missile!


they already have 400+ WS-10 in various versions on J-11 series of jets as well as some J-10B/C and recently tested TVC version of WS-10 on J-10B @Inception-06 so engine is not a problem for PAF @Inception-06

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## mingle

Windjammer said:


> Save it for later, once UK was keen to sell the EFT to Pakistan.


It should be a package of New trench3 with used as well if it's sums up 5 billion 28 to 30 new and 24 to 30 used it would be awesome.


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## denel

CriticalThought said:


> Sir, this aircraft will become a money pit. From spares to upgrades, the Europeans will milk us from out balls.
> 
> For top cover just pair RD-93 with Mirage 3/5 and upgrade the airframe with modern manufacturing, composites etc.
> 
> The real thing is the weapons + avionics. Now, even if we somehow acquire these, what is the guarantee that India will not be provided with codes/jammers to counter these? The knowledge for these is distributed throughout Europe and India/America/Israel have significant inroads there. All in all, a very, very bad idea.


 now you are talking about Super Cheetah

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## mingle

CriticalThought said:


> I like this idea!
> 
> But what I would like even better is latest SU-35 SM with Zhuk radar.


Su is good but Americans r after theior arms industry with sanctions on most of buyers we should avoid that route


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## CriticalThought

mingle said:


> Su is good but Americans r after theior arms industry with sanctions on most of buyers we should avoid that route



You think they won't sanction the RD-93 engines we buy?



denel said:


> now you are talking about Super Cheetah



Aaaaaahhhhh NOW everything falls into place. I have been such an idiot!!!!!!!!! Now I really, really, really hope whatever you and @Bilal Khan (Quwa) have been hinting at comes out to be true


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## HRK

tps77 said:


> So for used EFT we will have to look for T 2?


as per my understanding at least T-2 block-10 configuration but induction Rafale (with AESA radar) and Su-30 upgrade would again put us in the same situation against India which we are currently facing.
.........................................................................................

BTW @Quwa / @Bilal Khan (Quwa) and @Oscar I was thinking will it be possible to refit Tranch-1 eurofighter with Vixen AESA ....??

Irrespective of this initial development just want to know about this on technical ground ....

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## mingle

CriticalThought said:


> You think they won't sanction the RD-93 engines we buy?
> 
> 
> 
> Aaaaaahhhhh NOW everything falls into place. I have been such an idiot!!!!!!!!! Now I really, really, really hope whatever you and @Bilal Khan (Quwa) have been hinting at comes out to be true


It's small item compare to S-400 with Su s they r big ticket items avoid that Shit European option is bit expensive but trouble free.


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## CriticalThought

mingle said:


> It's small item compare to S-400 with Su s they r big ticket items avoid that Shit European option is bit expensive but trouble free.



If the Americans want to squeeze you, they just need an excuse. Nothing is big/small. If it's an arms purchase, it's an arms purchase. What do you think about AK-103, or military helis, or Pantsir? Europe, because of sanctions and leaking counter-measures to India IS NOT trouble free. Europe will DEFINITELY NOT allow you to integrate Raad. Why would we want our top of the line aircraft to be unable to perform nuclear strikes?


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## Windjammer

mingle said:


> It should be a package of New trench3 with used as well if it's sums up 5 billion 28 to 30 new and 24 to 30 used it would be awesome.


If we can pick up the storage aircraft at a reasonable price, they would be ideal replacement for the held back Vipers and a good stop gap measure until Block-3 Thunders become operational.

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## LKJ86

Inception-06 said:


> J-10CPAK with Russian, engine and a western BVR missile!


A very strange idea!
Why not buy the fighters directly from Russia or West?

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## Ultima Thule

Royal Blue007 said:


> Lets agree to disagree.


its simple Russia wont allow this to Chinese to Lease J-11 case closed @Royal Blue007


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## LKJ86

pakistanipower said:


> They (PLAAF) already have 400+ WS-10 on various J-11 series of jets and some of J-10B/C, and recently they tested TVC version of WS-10 on i think J-10B @tps77


WS-10 is used for J-11B/BS and J-16 in mass-production now.
There are about 100 J-10Cs in service already.(Maybe about 300 in total in plan)

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## Tps43

HRK said:


> as per my understanding at least T-2 block-10 configuration but induction Rafale (with AESA radar) and Su-30 upgrade would again put us in the same situation against India which we are currently facing.


Yes I meant with something like MLU for T. 2's
Maybe T 2's with Aesa can be bang for money?



Inception-06 said:


> Buying a single engine is cheaper than a western fighter aircraft package with its spare parts and sanction risks!
> 
> J-10CPAK with Russian, engine and a western BVR missile!


Nice idea

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## HRK

tps77 said:


> Yes I meant with something like MLU for T. 2's
> Maybe T 2's with Aesa can be bang for money?


Captor-E AESA is planned for Tranch-3 we can not say If and when it would be made available for earlier tranche as upgrad.

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## SQ8

HRK said:


> as per my understanding at least T-2 block-10 configuration but induction Rafale (with AESA radar) and Su-30 upgrade would again put us in the same situation against India which we are currently facing.
> .........................................................................................
> 
> BTW @Quwa / @Bilal Khan (Quwa) and @Oscar I was thinking will it be possible to refit Tranch-1 eurofighter with Vixen AESA ....??
> 
> Irrespective of this initial development just want to know about this on technical ground ....


Im pretty skeptical on the news bearing fruition.
The T-1’s are very air to air focused and nothing short of remanufacturing them will make them as capable as T-3s.

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## Tps43

HRK said:


> Captor-E AESA is planed for Tranch-3 we can not say If and when it would be made available for earlier tranche as upgrad.


True


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## Quwa

Oscar said:


> Im pretty skeptical on the news bearing fruition.
> The T-1’s are very air to air focused and nothing short of remanufacturing them will make them as capable as T-3s.


Interesting fact ... in 2005 the PAF actually did take a serious look at the T1. Alenia had in fact invited the PAF to watch flight trials of some T1s back then. I don't think it being "too advanced for us" had any bearing.

Rather, the T1's focus on A2A was the likely turn-off, esp. considering the bevy of A2G munitions the PAF bought with the F-16 Block-52+. In fact, from an electronics standpoint, the Block-52+ offered comparable electronics and A2A capability as the T1, though with mature A2G (which, albeit if the US allowed, could blossom with the JASSM, JSOW, Sensor-Fuzed Munition, etc). With the T1 at the time, there weren't many non-ITAR munitions to use, so going to the US (and paying up more) would've been the case anyways.

The situation is slightly better with the T3, though much more expensive. However, if by some miracle it can be done, then the PAF can speak to Turkey to get its AAMs, AGMs and AShMs to the aircraft.

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## khanasifm

mingle said:


> 50 or 60 million a copy not a big issue we will be ok can repay with 100 million a yr but look what we getting at what price indian rafale will fizzle out before they land in India.
> Plus we should lobby Americans for used F16s as well Two Sqd of used F16 with two Sqd of EF gave us enough time to fix economy and look at fifth generation.



The country cannot pay its short term debt and no one is paying taxes the economy is in tanks and 60 million a pop is no issue  

Stop electing crooks 

I doubt anything will happen is short to medium term other Than block 3

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Windjammer said:


> If we can pick up the storage aircraft at a reasonable price, they would be ideal replacement for the held back Vipers and a good stop gap measure until Block-3 Thunders become operational.


There was news the Austria is also keen on selling their EFT's. It is not a bad option if PAF can manage to procure not just the Italian and Spanish ones but also the Austrian ones. 
These can be used for ADA freeing up the F-16's for deep strike penetrations.


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## Chimgathar

Although EFs could be welcome addition in PAF but it seems a far cry uncle Sam or UK may create hurdles. Also EFs are plagued with problems, some operators want to replace them due to accidents, crashes, operational costs. German air force had 10 EF operational out 128 due to maintenance issues few months ago. Developed countries are struggling to maintain their EFs I dont understand how PAF with lower budget will maintain these jets.


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## polanski

tps77 said:


> Can they be upgraded to T3?


Yes Typhoon can be upgraded to latest tranche. There is life cycle management projects under European Fighter Program. Germany is upgrading their Typhoon to Nuclear capable. British and Spanish Typhoons are upgraded to ground attacks and anti-ship capabilities. The most important factor is Meteor is certified by Euro Fighter Typhoon.
The Italian government was focused on F-35 program hence they didn't maintain life cycle of their Typhoon. Rather they order different tranche in each production run. Tranche is also a production run for Typhoon customers.

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## Tps43

Chimgathar said:


> UK may create hurdles


Nope UK will be ok.


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## Amigator

@Oscar @CriticalThought @GriffinsRule @Windjammer  PAF isn't considering China's J-11D model. It ranges is good. Chinese engine is used in it so no problem with Russia. It has use huge amount of composite materials in it making it lighter in weight to its predecessor. More importantly, AESA radar and IRST is available. Some Chinese online platforms are considering it better than Russian SU-35 bcz it has AESA radar rather then Pessa.

I think Chinese would come to some deal with Russia if PAF requests it.

Good For CPEC also.

What are your thoughts??


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## CriticalThought

Amigator said:


> @Oscar @CriticalThought @GriffinsRule @Windjammer  PAF isn't considering China's J-11D model. It ranges is good. Chinese engine is used in it so no problem with Russia. It has use huge amount of composite materials in it making it lighter in weight to its predecessor. More importantly, AESA radar and IRST is available. Some Chinese online platforms are considering it better than Russian SU-35 bcz it has AESA radar rather then Pessa.
> 
> I think Chinese would come to some deal with Russia if PAF requests it.
> 
> Good For CPEC also.
> 
> What are your thoughts??



PAF seems to be diversifying its aeronautical options. They have insisted on using Russian engines for the Thunder, for example. It is in our best interests to further solidify the relationship with Russia. SU-35 is battle proven in Syria against the F-22. That is why I personally favour it, backed by A-100 AEWACS system.

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## Amigator

I am dying to see a PAF pilot in a Flanker plane and make it dance. Don't know when will my dream come true.


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## CriticalThought

Amigator said:


> I am dying to see a PAF pilot in a Flanker plane and make it dance. Don't know when will my dream come true.



Don't get your hopes too high. It may never come to pass...


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## royalharris

Chimgathar said:


> Although EFs could be welcome addition in PAF but it seems a far cry uncle Sam or UK may create hurdles. Also EFs are plagued with problems, some operators want to replace them due to accidents, crashes, operational costs. German air force had 10 EF operational out 128 due to maintenance issues few months ago. Developed countries are struggling to maintain their EFs I dont understand how PAF with lower budget will maintain these jets.


Because it is Europe original
To some parkistan friends,it is best


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## SQ8

Amigator said:


> @Oscar @CriticalThought @GriffinsRule @Windjammer  PAF isn't considering China's J-11D model. It ranges is good. Chinese engine is used in it so no problem with Russia. It has use huge amount of composite materials in it making it lighter in weight to its predecessor. More importantly, AESA radar and IRST is available. Some Chinese online platforms are considering it better than Russian SU-35 bcz it has AESA radar rather then Pessa.
> 
> I think Chinese would come to some deal with Russia if PAF requests it.
> 
> Good For CPEC also.
> 
> What are your thoughts??


It is not a mature platform yet and the J-11 series has certain restrictions on it for export.

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## TOPGUN

Any further news about the EFT guys ?


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## Trailer23

I don't want to act like the kill joy, but i'm curious...
Are there any American components on the EuroFrighter?
I'm asking because - the US had held back sales to countries even if a single component has been built in the US.

Example: Even France can't sell their airbus Commercial Aircrafts to Iran, because most airbus have American made stuff in them.


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## fatman17

Air Platforms

China, Pakistan to jointly produce Wing Loong II UAVs, says report

Gabriel Dominguez, London and Rahul Bedi, New Delhi - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

09 October 2018

The Chinese-developed Wing Loong II UAV during its maiden flight in February 2017. PAC and CAC will reportedly jointly bild 48 of these platforms for the Pakistani military. Source: Via Sina.com.cn

Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) Kamra and China's Chengdu Aircraft Corporation (CAC) will reportedly jointly produce 48 Wing Loong II strike-capable, reconnaissance unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs).

The announcement, which was made on 6 October via the Facebook page of the Pakistan Air Force's (PAF's) Sherdils Aerobatic Team, was also covered by China's state-owned Global Times newspaper. However, no details were revealed about the value of the deal, when it was struck, the delivery schedule, and whether all of the platforms are intended for use by the Pakistani military.

If confirmed, the deal would be one of the largest-known foreign orders placed for the Chinese-developed turboprop-powered UAV.

The latest developments come after commercial satellite imagery captured on 24 November 2017 showed that the Pakistani military may already be operating the Wing Loong I UAV. The imagery showed what appeared to be a single Wing Loong I in front of a hangar at the (PAF's MM Alam airbase in the Mianwali District, which is located in Pakistan's Punjab Province.

The second-generation Wing Loong II was first displayed at the China Airshow 2016 in Zhuhai, and conducted its maiden flight in February 2017.

In December 2017 the Xinhua news agency reported that the medium-altitude, long-endurance (MALE) platform hit five targets in succession using five different types of missiles as part of a live-firing test. Citing a statement by the Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC), Xinhua reported at the time that by achieving a "100% hit rate" the Wing Loong II set a new live-firing record for a Chinese-made UAV in a single sortie.

However, the report did not provide any details about the weapons that were test-fired.

As Jane's previously reported, the Wing Loong II bears a strong resemblance to the General Atomics Aeronautical Systems Inc (GA-ASI) MQ-9 Reaper UAV, with its low-wing monoplane slender fuselage and empennage with a prominent V-tail and ventral fin.

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## GriffinsRule

Amigator said:


> @Oscar @CriticalThought @GriffinsRule @Windjammer  PAF isn't considering China's J-11D model. It ranges is good. Chinese engine is used in it so no problem with Russia. It has use huge amount of composite materials in it making it lighter in weight to its predecessor. More importantly, AESA radar and IRST is available. Some Chinese online platforms are considering it better than Russian SU-35 bcz it has AESA radar rather then Pessa.
> 
> I think Chinese would come to some deal with Russia if PAF requests it.
> 
> Good For CPEC also.
> 
> What are your thoughts??



PAF is not considering J-11 and other Su-27 knockoffs from China because they are not available for sale without Russian okay, which is unlikely to come, given they would rather sell their aircraft directly. However, given the CAATSA law, it is better to avoid getting in that mess between the US and Russians. Remember, the law they passed applies to "major" weapon systems, which an Su-35 would certainly be, while RD-93 engines are not. 
On the same token, China would not be willing to upset their Russian relations, esp with them working together as counter-balance to the US by selling us any J-11 series aircraft (even if they could) as it is not in their strategic interest. Then there is the aspect of the aircraft itself, with China having just bought Su-35s from Russia itself, so one can read into that as they may.

Also, it has nothing to do with CPEC, so not sure how that applies, unless you mean Pakistan getting further in debt with the Chinese, which I am not in favor of at all.

As for the Typhoon, while tempting as it maybe, I don't think it is a good idea. Mind you, the upfront cost is just a small part of the equation. PAF will be with these aircraft for the next 30 years, and spending that much money on an aircraft with very limited (T1 Block 5) A2G capabilities, that will cost an arm and a leg to upgrade and support, I can not justify that purchase at all. Also, it is very possible to upgrade the T1s down the line to newer standards ... it will just cost a lot of money. Another thing to note is that the EF Typhoon production line is due to close by 2022. Had our financial situation been better, we could have bought new aircraft from the EF consortium and in return got very helpful and needed infrastructure upgrades for our own aviation sector, but buying these used T1s don't get us any ancillary benefits. 

I think, we need to keep a laser focus on developing our own aviation industry and avoid getting jumpy and anxious every time India buys shiny toys to pat themselves on the back. In the medium to long run, PAF should be limited to 3 fighters, the JF-17, F-16, and whatever Project AZM brings to fruition. It will not only streamline our logistics and in turn save us $$s, it will bring us more security as well. Let IAF burden itself with a hodgepodge of aircraft from all over the place.

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## Falcon26

GriffinsRule said:


> PAF is not considering J-11 and other Su-27 knockoffs from China because they are not available for sale without Russian okay, which is unlikely to come, given they would rather sell their aircraft directly. However, given the CAATSA law, it is better to avoid getting in that mess between the US and Russians. Remember, the law they passed applies to "major" weapon systems, which an Su-35 would certainly be, while RD-93 engines are not.
> On the same token, China would not be willing to upset their Russian relations, esp with them working together as counter-balance to the US by selling us any J-11 series aircraft (even if they could) as it is not in their strategic interest. Then there is the aspect of the aircraft itself, with China having just bought Su-35s from Russia itself, so one can read into that as they may.
> 
> Also, it has nothing to do with CPEC, so not sure how that applies, unless you mean Pakistan getting further in debt with the Chinese, which I am not in favor of at all.
> 
> As for the Typhoon, while tempting as it maybe, I don't think it is a good idea. Mind you, the upfront cost is just a small part of the equation. PAF will be with these aircraft for the next 30 years, and spending that much money on an aircraft with very limited (T1 Block 5) A2G capabilities, that will cost an arm and a leg to upgrade and support, I can not justify that purchase at all. Also, it is very possible to upgrade the T1s down the line to newer standards ... it will just cost a lot of money. Another thing to note is that the EF Typhoon production line is due to close by 2022. Had our financial situation been better, we could have bought new aircraft from the EF consortium and in return got very helpful and needed infrastructure upgrades for our own aviation sector, but buying these used T1s don't get us any ancillary benefits.
> 
> I think, we need to keep a laser focus on developing our own aviation industry and avoid getting jumpy and anxious every time India buys shiny toys to pat themselves on the back. In the medium to long run, PAF should be limited to 3 fighters, the JF-17, F-16, and whatever Project AZM brings to fruition. It will not only streamline our logistics and in turn save us $$s, it will bring us more security as well. Let IAF burden itself with a hodgepodge of aircraft from all over the place.



Where’s the evidence that China will not sell their Russian knockoffs to third parties? This claim has been made repeatedly on this forum but without any substantive evidence.

China sold their MiG-19 & MiG-21 knockoffs the world over. There’s little doubt they won’t sell their Su-knockoffs if the price is right.


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## GriffinsRule

Falcon26 said:


> Where’s the evidence that China will not sell their Russian knockoffs to third parties? This claim has been made repeatedly on this forum but without any substantive evidence.
> 
> China sold their MiG-19 & MiG-21 knockoffs the world over. There’s little doubt they won’t sell their Su-knockoffs if the price is right.



Selling 1960s technology is one thing, Su-27s another. Also, when China sold those across the world, they were not on friendly terms with the Soviets.


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## Falcon26

GriffinsRule said:


> Selling 1960s technology is one thing, Su-27s another. Also, when China sold those across the world, they were not on friendly terms with the Soviets.



My point still stands: where’s the evidence Russia is blocking China from exporting their Su-knockoffs?

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## GriffinsRule

What sort of evidence do you require? And where do you think it would be available? 

What we do have is ample anecdotal evidence, from PAF itself, that it has directly engaged with Russia and Ukraine in the past for Su-27 and Su-35 talks, but no such reports are even mentioned in regards to China, from whom we have quite openly discussed J-10s and even J-20s and cooperation in stealth fighter program for the PAF. 
That is evidence enough for me


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## Mahmood-ur-Rehman

royalharris said:


> Because it is Europe original
> To some parkistan friends,it is best


Pakistan nor parkistan


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## Falcon26

GriffinsRule said:


> What sort of evidence do you require? And where do you think it would be available?
> 
> What we do have is ample anecdotal evidence, from PAF itself, that it has directly engaged with Russia and Ukraine in the past for Su-27 and Su-35 talks, but no such reports are even mentioned in regards to China, from whom we have quite openly discussed J-10s and even J-20s and cooperation in stealth fighter program for the PAF.
> That is evidence enough for me



That’s faulty logic. PAF pursuing SU-series from Russia is not a proof that China can’t sell their derivatives to Pakistan! Russia being okey with Chinese factories rolling out hundreds of Sukhio knockoffs but protesting couple squadron sell to a third party to me doesn’t seem credible. Unless there’s an official or unofficial evidence, I am sorry I don’t buy this theory. It’s farfetched and weak. If intellectual property protection is the cited reason, then it makes no sense for Russia to continue selling their top of the line weapons to China knowing fully well that they will be reverse engineered. Despite previous experiences, Russia still sold SU-35 & SU-400 to China when Beijing has reverse engineered the older iterations of these weapons. I will have to call BS on this.

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## Maxpane

EFT?


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## messiach

The world has rapidly changed in the last 10years. Russia & China are looking at a post petro$ world. In principle Russia is not going to object as long as parties adhere to 'share in the pie'. Our team incld some PAF pilots at chengdu had 'almost open access' to flankers. 


Falcon26 said:


> My point still stands: where’s the evidence Russia is blocking China from exporting their Su-knockoffs?

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## Falcon26

messiach said:


> The world has rapidly changed in the last 10years. Russia & China are looking at a post petro$ world. *In* *principle* Russia is not going to object as long as parties adhere to 'share in the pie'. Our team incld some PAF pilots at chengdu had 'almost open access' to flankers.



How about in practice?

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## syed_yusuf

Falcon26 said:


> My point still stands: where’s the evidence Russia is blocking China from exporting their Su-knockoffs?



i agree, PAF is not going into chinese versions of Su-27 due to various reasons. Russian blockade is not one of them

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## SQ8

Falcon26 said:


> Where’s the evidence that China will not sell their Russian knockoffs to third parties? This claim has been made repeatedly on this forum but without any substantive evidence.
> 
> China sold their MiG-19 & MiG-21 knockoffs the world over. There’s little doubt they won’t sell their Su-knockoffs if the price is right.


Attempts have been made to source them before, the issue is that the Russians don’t want a repeat of the mig-19 and 21 saga. They were already furious that China is making the J series after getting the SKs. The recent Su-35 purchase too has a lot of strings attached; but you are correct that money goes a long way.

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## Falcon26

Oscar said:


> Attempts have been made to source them before, the issue is that the Russians don’t want a repeat of the mig-19 and 21 saga. They were already furious that China is making the J series after getting the SKs. The recent Su-35 purchase too has a lot of strings attached; but you are correct that money goes a long way.



To be fair, Russian apprehensions on China’s Su-35 request centered on Moscow’s fears that the Chinese were solely interested in the jet to study its engines & possibly to reverse engineer it....not fears of China’s selling a copy to third parties.

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## Quwa

Oscar said:


> Attempts have been made to source them before, the issue is that the Russians don’t want a repeat of the mig-19 and 21 saga. They were already furious that China is making the J series after getting the SKs. The recent Su-35 purchase too has a lot of strings attached; but you are correct that money goes a long way.


I wouldn't underestimate the operating cost of the Flankers either. I can't say if it's because of the Flanker in of itself or due to Russia's vertically tight after-sale support structure, but flying Flankers isn't easy.

It might sound like a cop-out, but as you'd explained, the PAF procures based on finely-tuned plans and processes. 

You'd have to rework a lot of things to accommodate for the Flanker and, at some point, you might as well ask if it's even worth it (will you cede 1 meter for a 1 foot gain?). I doubt the Flankers would factor much beyond maritime -- and even then, the goal would be to deter (truly valuable gains). However, can you sustain it if your availability rate starts tanking due to a lack of spare parts (or the Russians being slow)? 

I remember an uncle told me about how the PAF looked at the Jaguar and Tornado at various points. There was no doubt that those fighters had value in their intended roles, but the platforms were either dependent on others or in truth needed a complete domestic support chain for long-term value (esp. Jaguar).

The Flanker falls in the latter, and there's no fault on the Chinese I think for pursuing it -- lest they end up like the IAF with at one point a low serviceability rate. I doubt the Russians would cede as much to Pakistan.

So we either work out a bespoke deal for Chinese Flankers and pay Russia fees for licensing the design, which I don't think flew otherwise the PAF would've likely done it, or we go for something else.

I'd hope the Chinese make the J-10C available at some point soon, it would make for a pretty good all-round air-to-air and air-to-ground platform. It also benefits from the scale of the PLAAF, so the production and cost of parts and support shouldn't be an issue. It'd also link up with key Chinese munitions, esp. supersonic AShM.

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## CriticalThought

Quwa said:


> I wouldn't underestimate the operating cost of the Flankers either. I can't say if it's because of the Flanker in of itself or due to Russia's vertically tight after-sale support structure, but flying Flankers isn't easy.
> 
> It might sound like a cop-out, but as you'd explained, the PAF procures based on finely-tuned plans and processes.
> 
> You'd have to rework a lot of things to accommodate for the Flanker and, at some point, you might as well ask if it's even worth it (will you cede 1 meter for a 1 foot gain?). I doubt the Flankers would factor much beyond maritime -- and even then, the goal would be to deter (truly valuable gains). However, can you sustain it if your availability rate starts tanking due to a lack of spare parts (or the Russians being slow)?
> 
> I remember an uncle told me about how the PAF looked at the Jaguar and Tornado at various points. There was no doubt that those fighters had value in their intended roles, but the platforms were either dependent on others or in truth needed a complete domestic support chain for long-term value (esp. Jaguar).
> 
> The Flanker falls in the latter, and there's no fault on the Chinese I think for pursuing it -- lest they end up like the IAF with at one point a low serviceability rate. I doubt the Russians would cede as much to Pakistan.
> 
> So we either work out a bespoke deal for Chinese Flankers and pay Russia fees for licensing the design, which I don't think flew otherwise the PAF would've likely done it, or we go for something else.
> 
> I'd hope the Chinese make the J-10C available at some point soon, it would make for a pretty good all-round air-to-air and air-to-ground platform. It also benefits from the scale of the PLAAF, so the production and cost of parts and support shouldn't be an issue. It'd also link up with key Chinese munitions, esp. supersonic AShM.



Here is an ideal. Acquire manufacturing rights for SU-35 and negotiate the Saturn AL-41 engine for use on Azm or an uprated Thunder type aircraft. This is how you build a synergy and economies of scale. Pair up with China on spares and maintenance. I believe with proper planning it should be much more doable than any European options.

Btw, under the offsets deal of Rafale, important missiles are to be assembled in India. With the Flankers, at least we can rely on Chinese missiles.


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## LKJ86

Quwa said:


> I'd hope the Chinese make the J-10C available at some point soon, it would make for a pretty good all-round air-to-air and air-to-ground platform. It also benefits from the scale of the PLAAF, so the production and cost of parts and support shouldn't be an issue. It'd also link up with key Chinese munitions, esp. supersonic AShM.


PLAAF is very satisfied with J-10C. It has a good performance during the training with Su-35, and is also deployed on the Qinghai-Tibet Plateau (says hello to our Indian friends).

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## Zarvan

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1050765528652890112


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## denel

Quwa said:


> I wouldn't underestimate the operating cost of the Flankers either. I can't say if it's because of the Flanker in of itself or due to Russia's vertically tight after-sale support structure, but flying Flankers isn't easy.
> 
> It might sound like a cop-out, but as you'd explained, the PAF procures based on finely-tuned plans and processes.
> 
> You'd have to rework a lot of things to accommodate for the Flanker and, at some point, you might as well ask if it's even worth it (will you cede 1 meter for a 1 foot gain?). I doubt the Flankers would factor much beyond maritime -- and even then, the goal would be to deter (truly valuable gains). However, can you sustain it if your availability rate starts tanking due to a lack of spare parts (or the Russians being slow)?
> 
> I remember an uncle told me about how the PAF looked at the Jaguar and Tornado at various points. There was no doubt that those fighters had value in their intended roles, but the platforms were either dependent on others or in truth needed a complete domestic support chain for long-term value (esp. Jaguar).
> 
> The Flanker falls in the latter, and there's no fault on the Chinese I think for pursuing it -- lest they end up like the IAF with at one point a low serviceability rate. I doubt the Russians would cede as much to Pakistan.
> 
> So we either work out a bespoke deal for Chinese Flankers and pay Russia fees for licensing the design, which I don't think flew otherwise the PAF would've likely done it, or we go for something else.
> 
> I'd hope the Chinese make the J-10C available at some point soon, it would make for a pretty good all-round air-to-air and air-to-ground platform. It also benefits from the scale of the PLAAF, so the production and cost of parts and support shouldn't be an issue. It'd also link up with key Chinese munitions, esp. supersonic AShM.


I concur TCO for flankers is just too high; with J10c if it becomes available is ideal

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## Quwa

LKJ86 said:


> PLAAF is very satisfied with J-10C. It has a good performance during the training with Su-35, and is also deployed on the Qinghai-Tibet Plateau (says hello to our Indian friends).
> View attachment 504722





denel said:


> I concur TCO for flankers is just too high; with J10c if it becomes available is ideal


Right now AVIC is only marketing the J-10A. I hope we see the J-10C become available soon, it'd be the right solution for the PAF (i.e. leverage the SD-10A and C-802A inventory, integrate with CM-302? etc).

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## LKJ86

Quwa said:


> Right now AVIC is only marketing the J-10A.


But the production of J-10A has stopped long ago. Will it restart for export?

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## Quwa

LKJ86 said:


> But the production of J-10A has stopped long ago. Will it restart for export?


It's odd. But I haven't seen AVIC market the J-10B or J-10C, you'll only find mock-ups of the J-10A at their stalls and exhibits during events. If not J-10C, then I guess AVIC's priority is to market the JF-17 and, later on, FC-31?

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## MastanKhan

Quwa said:


> the PAF procures based on finely-tuned plans and processes.
> 
> You'd have to rework a lot of things to accommodate for the Flanker and, at some point, you might as well ask if it's even worth it (will you cede 1 meter for a 1 foot gain?).
> 
> I doubt the Flankers would factor much beyond maritime -- and even then, the goal would be to deter (truly valuable gains). .



Hi,

This is once in a lifetime when I just take the pointers out of a post---.

If Paf procurement was so finely tuned---then it should have bought the F16's in 2003-04.

See---I agree with you and the general / uncle you spoke to---Paf is finely tuned to procurement---.

But it is not finely tuned to procuring the right equipment at the right time in a timely manner---.

It gambled on the F16 purchase---and the nation lost an extremely strong fighting force---.

The Paf gambled on the JF17---and the project is 10 years behind schedule---.

Now if nigeria or myanmar or thailand were 10 years behind the project---it would not matter much---but when you are in constant fear of war---and you constantly chicken out to make a conventional stand against the opponent---then that is a big big issue---.

So---being clever in procurement---has resulted in being " too clever " overall---.

As for the maritime role---that is the most important battle front in the coming war for fighter and strike aircraft---.

The problem with the Paf is that it has been an over land operating air force primarily---and over the water was a secondary option---.

Now---over the water is the primary focus---and it that field----it has so far failed miserably---@denel

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## Quwa

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> This is once in a lifetime when I just take the pointers out of a post---.
> 
> If Paf procurement was so finely tuned---then it should have bought the F16's in 2003-04.
> 
> See---I agree with you and the general / uncle you spoke to---Paf is finely tuned to procurement---.
> 
> But it is not finely tuned to procuring the right equipment at the right time in a timely manner---.
> 
> It gambled on the F16 purchase---and the nation lost an extremely strong fighting force---.
> 
> The Paf gambled on the JF17---and the project is 10 years behind schedule---.
> 
> Now if nigeria or myanmar or thailand were 10 years behind the project---it would not matter much---but when you are in constant fear of war---and you constantly chicken out to make a conventional stand against the opponent---then that is a big big issue---.
> 
> So---being clever in procurement---has resulted in being " too clever " overall---.
> 
> As for the maritime role---that is the most important battle front in the coming war for fighter and strike aircraft---.
> 
> The problem with the Paf is that it has been an over land operating air force primarily---and over the water was a secondary option---.
> 
> Now---over the water is the primary focus---and it that field----it has so far failed miserably---@denel


The tuning you see from the PAF is from real resource constraints. When the Pak Gov't is at the start of every term asking the IMF for hard currency infusions, then you don't have much flexibility in terms of technology or time. The exception to the rule was Mushy's time when there was a lot of aid dollars flowing through, and I fully agree, a lot of money was squandered.

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## CriticalThought

Quwa said:


> The tuning you see from the PAF is from real resource constraints. When the Pak Gov't is at the start of every term asking the IMF for hard currency infusions, then you don't have much flexibility in terms of technology or time. The exception to the rule was Mushy's time when there was a lot of aid dollars flowing through, and I fully agree, a lot of money was squandered.



Even today, a production plan where we acquire manufacturing rights and make Russia an a benefactor in any sales coming out of an uprated Thunder type aircraft can be pulled off. You have 500 million dollars just from the Myanmar deal. The B version is already slated for export. Use the base of JF-17 Thunder to plan your next move. If you think creatively, there are many things that are possible.

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## Quwa

CriticalThought said:


> Even today, a production plan where we acquire manufacturing rights and make Russia an a benefactor in any sales coming out of an uprated Thunder type aircraft can be pulled off. You have 500 million dollars just from the Myanmar deal. The B version is already slated for export. Use the base of JF-17 Thunder to plan your next move. If you think creatively, there are many things that are possible.


The Russians won't openly upset the Indians. So the trick is to find out what the Russians can subtly do to help you in the near and long-terms. So the Russians can't help with Su-35s and S-400s, but they might be flexible through expertise, technology inputs, industry inputs, resources, etc that go into fighters and SAM tech. Take the South Korean KM-SAM as an example.

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## CriticalThought

Quwa said:


> The Russians won't openly upset the Indians. So the trick is to find out what the Russians can subtly do to help you in the near and long-terms. So the Russians can't help with Su-35s and S-400s, but they might be flexible through expertise, technology inputs, industry inputs, resources, etc that go into fighters and SAM tech. Take the South Korean KM-SAM as an example.



Money speaks. Use the Thunder program to generate enough cash to lure the Russians. The SU-35 would be a very good addition. And I am thinking both in terms of naval power, AND potentially countering the F-22. You never know what the future holds. It is extremely short-sighted of us to disregard the American threat. And if we position the F-22s stationed in Afghanistan properly in front of the Russians, there is no reason why they won't help to prop us up. There was a time when American F-16s helped to shoot down Russian Su-22s. Revenge must feel sweet for the Russians, and we should offer to facilitate.


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## Safriz

Two things ruined Pakistani participation in J-10 program.. The corruption of Zardari regime who only released 65% of PAF budget, and Chinese inviability to make own engine on time .

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## LKJ86

Quwa said:


> I hope we see the J-10C become available soon, it'd be the right solution for the PAF (i.e. leverage the SD-10A and C-802A inventory, integrate with CM-302? etc).


J-10C with PL-10, PL-15, KD-88, YJ-91, and LS-500J

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## denel

Quwa said:


> Right now AVIC is only marketing the J-10A. I hope we see the J-10C become available soon, it'd be the right solution for the PAF (i.e. leverage the SD-10A and C-802A inventory, integrate with CM-302? etc).


It will be a matter of time i think before j10c are offered.

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## TOPGUN

LKJ86 said:


> J-10C with PL-10, PL-15, KD-88, YJ-91, and LS-500J
> View attachment 504726
> 
> View attachment 504727
> 
> View attachment 504728




I am in love, this is what PAF needs they just don't get it !!

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## denel

CriticalThought said:


> Even today, a production plan where we acquire manufacturing rights and make Russia an a benefactor in any sales coming out of an uprated Thunder type aircraft can be pulled off. You have 500 million dollars just from the Myanmar deal. The B version is already slated for export. Use the base of JF-17 Thunder to plan your next move. If you think creatively, there are many things that are possible.


That is where the problem is overall; there is no fresh open ideas and this closed mindset is what has lead to the present scenario

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## Safriz

J-31 FTW 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1049201001108914176


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## SQ8

Falcon26 said:


> To be fair, Russian apprehensions on China’s Su-35 request centered on Moscow’s fears that the Chinese were solely interested in the jet to study its engines & possibly to reverse engineer it....not fears of China’s selling a copy to third parties.


Your post contradicts itself, the fear is of reverse engineering and then selling those copies- taking potential revenue away from Russia.


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## LKJ86

Quwa said:


> It's odd. But I haven't seen AVIC market the J-10B or J-10C, you'll only find mock-ups of the J-10A at their stalls and exhibits during events. If not J-10C, then I guess AVIC's priority is to market the JF-17 and, later on, FC-31?


In fact, there is only J-10C in production now. About 100 J-10C is in service already, and maybe 300 in total is in plan.
And marketing FC-31 is not so easy.
It is really odd.
If J-10D really exists, J-10C may be exported soon.

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## TOPGUN

LKJ86 said:


> In fact, there is only J-10C in production now. About 100 J-10C is in service already, and maybe 300 in total is in plan.
> And marketing FC-31 is not so easy.
> It is really odd.
> If J-10D really exists, J-10C may be exported soon.



Any chance PAF will go for J-10C ?

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## LKJ86

TOPGUN said:


> Any chance PAF will go for J-10C ?


IMHO, it is mainly based on the willing of PAF.

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## Falcon26

Oscar said:


> Your post contradicts itself, the fear is of reverse engineering and then selling those copies- taking potential revenue away from Russia.



I am not contradicting myself, at all. China copying Russian engines is a violation of Russian intellectual property. Whether China uses those engines for domestic consumption or sells abroad is irrelevant. China has already copied the SU-27/30 and producing them enmass. Russia has a right to be concerned. What you are hinting is that Russia is ok with China reverse engineering those engines/planes as long as it doesn’t sell them abroad; even though Chinese domestic requirements is exponentially larger than any potential foreign order. This is where we disagree. If Russian ban exists, it will apply across the board. My point still stands: there’s no credible proof that China can’t sell its SU-knockoffs. What you and others have are conjectures. Nothing conclusive.

Btw I am not even a fan of PAF inducting SU-knockoffs. I think it’s awful idea to induct a derivative of a plane your main adversary deploys and in bigger quantities. But arguments that China won’t sell its Su derivatives due to Russian restrictions is absurd and premised on flimsy grounds. China reverse engineered and inducted those planes in record numbers despite Russian restrictions!



TOPGUN said:


> Any chance PAF will go for J-10C ?



PAF should go for it but it won’t. Reasons have more to do with PAF’s rigid thinking and the idea that JF-17 & F-16s are sufficient for the Indian threat. Per PAF thinking, J-10c benefits are marginal compared to Jf-17 and don’t justify induction. Whether that’s true is up to anyone.

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## TOPGUN

J-10C is multirole correct ?

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## Falcon26

TOPGUN said:


> J-10C is multirole correct ?


 Yes.

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## TOPGUN

Falcon26 said:


> Yes.



Pitty for PAF !!!!!


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## GriffinsRule

Falcon26 said:


> That’s faulty logic. PAF pursuing SU-series from Russia is not a proof that China can’t sell their derivatives to Pakistan! Russia being okey with Chinese factories rolling out hundreds of Sukhio knockoffs but protesting couple squadron sell to a third party to me doesn’t seem credible. Unless there’s an official or unofficial evidence, I am sorry I don’t buy this theory. It’s farfetched and weak. If intellectual property protection is the cited reason, then it makes no sense for Russia to continue selling their top of the line weapons to China knowing fully well that they will be reverse engineered. Despite previous experiences, Russia still sold SU-35 & SU-400 to China when Beijing has reverse engineered the older iterations of these weapons. I will have to call BS on this.



@Falcon26 That is why I said anecdotal evidence. Its not faulty logic I think, but we are all entitled to see things how they suit us. One other thing I could point to is that China has never offered the Su-27 knock-offs for sale in any promotional and sales materials while other Chinese products can be found splattered all over the marketing brochures and what not. That lack of evidence that China actually is either willing or able to sell the J-11 etc can make for a compelling argument as well.
Anyways, not to debate solely this point (whether China can or can not sell their J-11 series), I think its perhaps safe to say that we wont be seeing those aircraft in PAF service.

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## fatman17

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1050921679461830656
Wing Loong

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## Inception-06

LKJ86 said:


> PLAAF is very satisfied with J-10C. It has a good performance during the training with Su-35, and is also deployed on the Qinghai-Tibet Plateau (says hello to our Indian friends).
> View attachment 504722


@tps77 @Quwa @MastanKhan 

Which are the best air to air missiles this J-10C can carry or offer compared to the Indian SU-30MKI air to air missile arsenal, do the Chinese missiles have any edge or are they different or equal from the Indian weapon quality?

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## HRK

Inception-06 said:


> air to air missiles this J-10C can carry


J-10C with pair of PL-10 SRAAM and PL-15 LRAAM






I few days back read somewhere that upgraded PL-12 _(version was not mention)_ almost match with PL-15

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## denel

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> This is once in a lifetime when I just take the pointers out of a post---.
> 
> If Paf procurement was so finely tuned---then it should have bought the F16's in 2003-04.
> 
> See---I agree with you and the general / uncle you spoke to---Paf is finely tuned to procurement---.
> 
> But it is not finely tuned to procuring the right equipment at the right time in a timely manner---.
> 
> It gambled on the F16 purchase---and the nation lost an extremely strong fighting force---.
> 
> The Paf gambled on the JF17---and the project is 10 years behind schedule---.
> 
> Now if nigeria or myanmar or thailand were 10 years behind the project---it would not matter much---but when you are in constant fear of war---and you constantly chicken out to make a conventional stand against the opponent---then that is a big big issue---.
> 
> So---being clever in procurement---has resulted in being " too clever " overall---.
> 
> As for the maritime role---that is the most important battle front in the coming war for fighter and strike aircraft---.
> 
> The problem with the Paf is that it has been an over land operating air force primarily---and over the water was a secondary option---.
> 
> Now---over the water is the primary focus---and it that field----it has so far failed miserably---@denel


I concur with my friend. They continued to have narrow interest and completely lacked out of the box thinking. Now, as there are multiple evolutionary threats they face, they are still boxed in their mindset and refuse to acknowledge these gaps; they need a new fresh outlook - regretfully they suffer from being the initiator of ideas to implementors of ideas which is the primal failure point and now to let R&D incubators come up due to petty politics and protection of the turf... in short nothing less than traitors of their own making; the country also is to blame for holding them to high standards which was and is a fallacy. The ability to keep one step ahead is completely amiss and always the China card is there. There is no sense to own and develop further; that is exactly what my friends who were seconded over to Kamra said - they just take in but have no concept of taking it further because of the bureacratic red tape.
Mastan, in my work, we were not measured at the end of year based on how you towed the line but rather how frequently you went against the grain and came up with new ideas ... for example the algorithm for stable ultra high g manouvering using tvc that is on the a-darter. Constant challenging is required; that is regretfully my analysis of Kamra and PAC. I am very harsh in critism because that is how my senior mentors groomed our entire R&D engineering groups - never to be boxed in.

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## Knight Rider

Falcon26 said:


> I am not contradicting myself, at all. China copying Russian engines is a violation of Russian intellectual property. Whether China uses those engines for domestic consumption or sells abroad is irrelevant. China has already copied the SU-27/30 and producing them enmass. Russia has a right to be concerned. What you are hinting is that Russia is ok with China reverse engineering those engines/planes as long as it doesn’t sell them abroad; even though Chinese domestic requirements is exponentially larger than any potential foreign order. This is where we disagree. If Russian ban exists, it will apply across the board. My point still stands: there’s no credible proof that China can’t sell its SU-knockoffs. What you and others have are conjectures. Nothing conclusive.
> 
> Btw I am not even a fan of PAF inducting SU-knockoffs. I think it’s awful idea to induct a derivative of a plane your main adversary deploys and in bigger quantities. But arguments that China won’t sell its Su derivatives due to Russian restrictions is absurd and premised on flimsy grounds. China reverse engineered and inducted those planes in record numbers despite Russian restrictions!
> 
> 
> 
> PAF should go for it but it won’t. Reasons have more to do with PAF’s rigid thinking and the idea that JF-17 & F-16s are sufficient for the Indian threat. Per PAF thinking, J-10c benefits are marginal compared to Jf-17 and don’t justify induction. Whether that’s true is up to anyone.


China has already sold 253 F-6s (Mig-19 Farmer) copies and 180 F-7s (Mig-21 Fishbed) copies to Pakistan !!! Why selling J-11D (SU-27/30) copies would make a difference and trigger the Russians now all of a sudden ??? If Russians are so much concerned,they should provide a better option to Pakistan. 

Russian MIGs are not a bad option for PAF !!!

We need a heavy deep strike fighter for bombing role and which can also perform air superiority role aswell against enemy aircrafts (bandits) during bombing missions.

An Example for Heavy Strike Fighter;
Look how American F-15Cs performed against the Iraqi air force !!!! The only aircraft which challenge the F-15C was MIG-25. Iraqi shot down 1 F-15C and 1 F/A-18 in Dogfights with it during the Gulf war 1991.


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## messiach

Definitely with russian engines.




Quwa said:


> It's odd. But I haven't seen AVIC market the J-10B or J-10C, you'll only find mock-ups of the J-10A at their stalls and exhibits during events. If not J-10C, then I guess AVIC's priority is to market the JF-17 and, later on, FC-31?


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## Readerdefence

Hi in my opinion Russian doesn’t have any objections in selling j11 or j16 to Pakistan 
As china already flying them with their own engines most of the russsian objections will 
Be or can be turn down by Chinese as they are getting su35 to give Russians a financial 
Shoulder 
Thank you


----------



## MastanKhan

denel said:


> I concur with my friend. They continued to have narrow interest and completely lacked out of the box thinking. Now, as there are multiple evolutionary threats they face, they are still boxed in their mindset and refuse to acknowledge these gaps; they need a new fresh outlook - regretfully they suffer from being the initiator of ideas to implementors of ideas which is the primal failure point and now to let R&D incubators come up due to petty politics and protection of the turf... in short nothing less than traitors of their own making; the country also is to blame for holding them to high standards which was and is a fallacy. The ability to keep one step ahead is completely amiss and always the China card is there. There is no sense to own and develop further; that is exactly what my friends who were seconded over to Kamra said - they just take in but have no concept of taking it further because of the bureacratic red tape.
> Mastan, in my work, we were not measured at the end of year based on how you towed the line but rather how frequently you went against the grain and came up with new ideas ... for example the algorithm for stable ultra high g manouvering using tvc that is on the a-darter. Constant challenging is required; that is regretfully my analysis of Kamra and PAC. I am very harsh in critism because that is how my senior mentors groomed our entire R&D engineering groups - never to be boxed in.



Hi,

Your truthful and harsh criticism is very " UN PAKISTANI "---.

Pakistanis would lie thru their teeth to not be embarrassed by their failures---.

Everything failure has an excuse---and there is an excuse for the incompetent leadership.

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## Tps43

Inception-06 said:


> @tps77 @Quwa @MastanKhan
> 
> Which are the best air to air missiles this J-10C can carry or offer compared to the Indian SU-30MKI air to air missile arsenal, do the Chinese missiles have any edge or are they different or equal from the Indian weapon quality?


PL 12 and the latest killer one PL 15

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## LKJ86

Readerdefence said:


> Hi in my opinion Russian doesn’t have any objections in selling j11 or j16 to Pakistan
> As china already flying them with their own engines most of the russsian objections will
> Be or can be turn down by Chinese as they are getting su35 to give Russians a financial
> Shoulder
> Thank you


China has to consider the relationship with Russia.

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## messiach

Yes, the partnership is vital. China is not going to sideline russia. Pk wants russia to contribute to PAF future needs.


LKJ86 said:


> China has to consider the relationship with Russia.

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## LKJ86

messiach said:


> Pk wants russia to contribute to PAF future needs.


Yep, I don't think PAF is willing to put all its eggs into one basket.
Buying fighters from the west or Russia is a reasonable choice to PAF, I guess.


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## YeBeWarned

messiach said:


> Yes, the partnership is vital. China is not going to sideline russia. Pk wants russia to contribute to PAF future needs.



You think Russian will contribute in PAF needs in upcoming future ? specially after S-400 , it would be odd to pitch Russian Fighters against Russian SAM's ..


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## Falcon26

Starlord said:


> You think Russian will contribute in PAF needs in upcoming future ? specially after S-400 , it would be odd to pitch Russian Fighters against Russian SAM's ..



Why not? Russia is selling the same weapons to both China and India

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## Knight Rider

The Russians provide RD-93 engines for JF-17s. Why would they object or show concern if China sell J-11s and J-16s to Pakistan. China already sold 253 Mig-19 and 180 Mig-21 copies to Pakistan back in the 90s and the Russians didn't object or showed any concern about those deals.

Russia can always offer MIG-35 Fulcrum-E and SU-35 Flanker E as an alternative to Pakistan.


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## LKJ86

Knight Rider said:


> The Russians provide RD-93 engines for JF-17s. Why would they object or show concern if China sell J-11s and J-16s to Pakistan. China already sold 253 Mig-19 and 180 Mig-21 copies to Pakistan back in the 90s and the Russians didn't object or showed any concern about those deals.


When China sold J-6 and J-7, Soviet Union/Russia had stopped the production of Mig-19 and Mig-21 long ago and abandoned such light-weight fighters. They did not affect Russia's arms sales at all.

But when China chooses to export J-11 and J-16 now, they will compete directly with Russia's Su-30 and Su-35 in the international market. It will be another story.

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## Fieldmarshal

Instead of "buying " the ac in question from China, a simple and most doable solution be to simply "lease" the ac.
It will keep both the Russians and Chinese happy.


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## LKJ86

Fieldmarshal said:


> Instead of "buying " the ac in question from China, a simple and most doable solution be to simply "lease" the ac.
> It will keep both the Russians and Chinese happy.


Why not buy the fighter from Russia directly?


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## Tps43

LKJ86 said:


> Why not buy the fighter from Russia directly?


Russia wont sell due to indian factor


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## LKJ86

tps77 said:


> Russia wont sell due to indian factor


EFT also is a good choice.


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## Tps43

LKJ86 said:


> EFT also is a good choice.


T 3 is very expensive but there can be some T 1's .


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## LKJ86

tps77 said:


> T 3 is very expensive but there can be some T 1's .


As we all know, Pakistan cooperates with China in the JF-17 project, and very likely in its fifth-generation fighter project.
If PAF also buys J-10C, it means to put all its fighters into China's basket.
So, I guess PAF would prefer other options.

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## Tps43

LKJ86 said:


> As we all know, Pakistan cooperates with China in the JF-17 project, and very likely in its fifth-generation fighter project.
> If PAF also buys J-10C, it means to put all its fighters into China's basket.
> So, I guess PAF would prefer other options.


Agreed I always said Mirages will be replaced by A western AC


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## LKJ86

tps77 said:


> Agreed I always said Mirages will be replaced by A western AC


Yep, just like PA and PN.

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## messiach

There's an offer on the table. That would shape future Pak-sino-rus alliance.


Starlord said:


> You think Russian will contribute in PAF needs in upcoming future ?..

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## Tps43

messiach said:


> There's an offer on the table. That would shape future Pak-sino-rus alliance.


5th Gen?
Just yes or no.


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## araz

tps77 said:


> 5th Gen?
> Just yes or no.


Makes sense with a russian engine. Look out for increased thrust on RD93/ other engines are also possible. The Solid russian produce would be problematic for infrastructure management but a hybrid solution maybe on the way. JUST SAYING.
My own opinion so take it or leave it.
A

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## Tps43

araz said:


> Makes sense witth a russian engine. Look out for increased thrust on RD93/ other engines are also possible. The Solid russian produce would be pronlemafic f9r infrastructure management but a hybrid solution maybe on the way. JUST SAYING.
> My own opinion so take it or leave it.
> A


I will take it 
I was thinking the same .
But there can be a new platform as well .
Tri nation fighter?

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## fatman17

JF17 Block lll prototype in China alongside a J20.

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## araz

tps77 said:


> I will take it
> I was thinking the same .
> But there can be a new platform as well .
> Tri nation fighter?


Will take too long. Think a win win solution might be to carry on working up a semi complete project and use both Countries to outsource their best produce. The solution then will come on time and on budget and make up the weaknesses of one supplier by taking a strong produce of the otherone. If it works then the produce getssold and everyone is happy. This is my brain telling me how to do it the smart way.
A



fatman17 said:


> JF17 Block lll prototype in China alongside a J20.
> View attachment 505184


Larger wing span if I am not mistaken. So more fuel. But does it translate into more hardpoints??
A

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## Sinnerman108

araz said:


> Will take too long. Think a win win solution might be to carry on working up a semi complete project and use both Countries to outsource their best produce. The solution then will come on time and on budget and make up the weaknesses of one supplier by taking a strong produce of the otherone. If it works then the produce getssold and everyone is happy. This is my brain telling me how to do it the smart way.
> A
> 
> 
> Larger wing span if I am not mistaken. So more fuel. But does it translate into more hardpoints??
> A



Larger wing span = more lift = more drag 

and no it cannot translate into more hand points, that is a different beast altogether.

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## LKJ86

fatman17 said:


> JF17 Block lll prototype in China alongside a J20.
> View attachment 505184


https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/jf-1...ighter-thread-7.427560/page-356#post-10673690


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## Inception-06

@Dazzler why we don't have our own air defence missile programme?

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## Tps43

Inception-06 said:


> @Dazzler why we don't have our own air defence missile programme?


We have

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## Inception-06

tps77 said:


> We have



based on western and eastern military technology or something totally new?

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## bananarepublic

tps77 said:


> We have



can you give a hint if the air defense is for long range interception or not ?

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## Tps43

Inception-06 said:


> based on western and eastern military technology or something totally new?


As far as I know indigenous .
It will be a tri service platform.


bananarepublic said:


> can you give a hint if the air defense is for long range interception or not ?


Medium as far as I know.

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## Inception-06

tps77 said:


> We have



thx that's enough, don't need to expose details! I just hope its a killing machine and it will bring India the same nightmare as the S-400.

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## Tps43

Inception-06 said:


> thx that's enough, don't need to expose details! I just hope its a killing machine and will bring India the same nightmare as the S-400.


Hopes are high.
انشاالله we will succeed.

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## bananarepublic

tps77 said:


> As far as I know indigenous .
> It will be a tri service platform.
> 
> Medium as far as I know.



are we cooperating with the turkey on this project ?
because certain tech is not available in Pakistan ?

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## CriticalThought

fatman17 said:


> JF17 Block lll prototype in China alongside a J20.
> View attachment 505184



Is it only me, or the cropped delta wings seem to have a more pronounced delta formation with shorter LERX? Nothing can be said with certainty at this resolution, but if true, then it means lower wing loading, higher lift, better instantaneous turn rate without giving up too much on sustained turn rate.


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## Tps43

bananarepublic said:


> are we cooperating with the turkey on this project ?
> because certain tech is not available in Pakistan ?


No comments bro

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## CriticalThought

tps77 said:


> Hopes are high.
> انشاالله we will succeed.



Please eat something sweet on my account for this sweet, sweet news

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## Tps43

CriticalThought said:


> Please eat something sweet on my account for this sweet, sweet news


Hahaahaha thnx bhai

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## Zarvan

fatman17 said:


> JF17 Block lll prototype in China alongside a J20.
> View attachment 505184


It's JF-17 BLOCK B not BLOCK III


----------



## YeBeWarned

Falcon26 said:


> Why not? Russia is selling the same weapons to both China and India



we are not in same league as China , we can't pay upfront Cash to Russians which they need, plus China got $$$ to pay they can buy anything they want .



tps77 said:


> 5th Gen?
> Just yes or no.



I doubt that, for me if Russians enter Pakistani markets it will be a 4++ Gen fighter . 5th Gen will be a hybrid of J-20/J31/TFX and JF



tps77 said:


> Hahaahaha thnx bhai



Bhai Biryani ke bad Meetha tu banta hai ..
waise mera calculated guess hai , A-darter can be used in our home made Medium altitude SAM or it could be based on SD10, your guess can be as good as mine .



messiach said:


> There's an offer on the table. That would shape future Pak-sino-rus alliance.



If any Russian option is under evaluation , which series you will prefer ? MiG or Su ?

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## Dazzler

CriticalThought said:


> Is it only me, or the cropped delta wings seem to have a more pronounced delta formation with shorter LERX? Nothing can be said with certainty at this resolution, but if true, then it means lower wing loading, higher lift, better instantaneous turn rate without giving up too much on sustained turn rate.



Just the B model nothing else. The blk 3 is still sitting at the assembly line.

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## Falcon26

Starlord said:


> we are not in same league as China , we can't pay upfront Cash to Russians which they need, plus China got $$$ to pay they can buy anything they want .
> 
> 
> 
> I doubt that, for me if Russians enter Pakistani markets it will be a 4++ Gen fighter . 5th Gen will be a hybrid of J-20/J31/TFX and JF
> 
> 
> 
> Bhai Biryani ke bad Meetha tu banta hai ..
> waise mera calculated guess hai , A-darter can be used in our home made Medium altitude SAM or it could be based on SD10, your guess can be as good as mine .
> 
> 
> 
> If any Russian option is under evaluation , which series you will prefer ? MiG or Su ?



No country makes upfront cash payment.


----------



## Tps43

Starlord said:


> Bhai Biryani ke bad Meetha tu banta hai ..
> waise mera calculated guess hai , A-darter can be used in our home made Medium altitude SAM or it could be based on SD10, your guess can be as good as mine .


It can be .
Btw what if they r upgraded aspide missiles

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## Readerdefence

LKJ86 said:


> When China sold J-6 and J-7, Soviet Union/Russia had stopped the production of Mig-19 and Mig-21 long ago and abandoned such light-weight fighters. They did not affect Russia's arms sales at all.
> 
> But when China chooses to export J-11 and J-16 now, they will compete directly with Russia's Su-30 and Su-35 in the international market. It will be another story.


Hi my friend china is churning out j series with home grown engines specially on j11 and j16 
Do you still think Russian can have a say in exporting those to another country beside this china is still importing su35 from Russia 
So I think if china export these jets to Pakistan Russia can also mingle around with supply 
Of engines o for these jets 
Thank you


----------



## YeBeWarned

tps77 said:


> It can be .
> Btw what if they r upgraded aspide missiles



hmm that would be interesting ..

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## Inception-06

tps77 said:


> It can be .
> Btw what if they r upgraded aspide missiles



LY-60 / FD-60 / PL10 so we are experimenting with the retired Typ21 frigate SAM.

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## CriticalThought

Inception-06 said:


> LY-60 / FD-60 / PL10 so we are experimenting with the retired Typ21 frigate SAM.



The aim should be to neutralize the Brahmos threat.


----------



## khanasifm

GriffinsRule said:


> @Falcon26 That is why I said anecdotal evidence. Its not faulty logic I think, but we are all entitled to see things how they suit us. One other thing I could point to is that China has never offered the Su-27 knock-offs for sale in any promotional and sales materials while other Chinese products can be found splattered all over the marketing brochures and what not. That lack of evidence that China actually is either willing or able to sell the J-11 etc can make for a compelling argument as well.
> Anyways, not to debate solely this point (whether China can or can not sell their J-11 series), I think its perhaps safe to say that we wont be seeing those aircraft in PAF service.



China promoted selling f-7s after they copied it and they are not doing so for their version of SU or j-11 series on their export web site


What they offer to foreign markets as of now  

http://www.avic.com/en/forbusiness/militaryaviationanddefense/fighters/index.shtml

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## LKJ86

Readerdefence said:


> Hi my friend china is churning out j series with home grown engines specially on j11 and j16
> Do you still think Russian can have a say in exporting those to another country beside this china is still importing su35 from Russia
> So I think if china export these jets to Pakistan Russia can also mingle around with supply
> Of engines o for these jets
> Thank you


J-11B/BS and J-16 all use WS-10 engines already, and they are 100% made in China. Besides, China has not officially purchases AL-31FNs from Russia last year yet.

But as what I said before, if China exports J-11 and J-16, they will affect Russia's arms sales directly. It will be sure to affect the relationship between China and Russia.

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## YeBeWarned

@tps77 @Inception-06 guys have you ever given a thought about the odd 24 Su-35's China bought from Russia ? I mean this purchase very weird in many ways , China is already producing J-Series and now J20's what was their reason to buy 24 SU35 ? I wonder if it was to later be sold to Pakistan ? buying it from China and getting a NoC from Russia will be easier and it will save a lot of trouble for Pakistan , as we wont be getting any sanctions on us ,and we can pay to china in several years time period .

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## Tps43

Inception-06 said:


> LY-60 / FD-60 / PL10 so we are experimenting with the retired Typ21 frigate SAM.


Maybe but cant say exactly.



Starlord said:


> @tps77 @Inception-06 guys have you ever given a thought about the odd 24 Su-35's China bought from Russia ? I mean this purchase very weird in many ways , China is already producing J-Series and now J20's what was their reason to buy 24 SU35 ? I wonder if it was to later be sold to Pakistan ? buying it from China and getting a NoC from Russia will be easier and it will save a lot of trouble for Pakistan , as we wont be getting any sanctions on us ,and we can pay to china in several years time period .


Nope won't happen bro

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## Falcon26

Starlord said:


> @tps77 @Inception-06 guys have you ever given a thought about the odd 24 Su-35's China bought from Russia ? I mean this purchase very weird in many ways , China is already producing J-Series and now J20's what was their reason to buy 24 SU35 ? I wonder if it was to later be sold to Pakistan ? buying it from China and getting a NoC from Russia will be easier and it will save a lot of trouble for Pakistan , as we wont be getting any sanctions on us ,and we can pay to china in several years time period .



China is believed to have bought those planes in order to study their engines and possibly reverse engineer them. This is why negotiations took so long. As of now, they are fully deployed by PLAAF. Any talk of PAF involved in their acquisitions is a daydream.

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## Amigator

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Your truthful and harsh criticism is very " UN PAKISTANI "---.
> 
> Pakistanis would lie thru their teeth to not be embarrassed by their failures---.
> 
> Everything failure has an excuse---and there is an excuse for the incompetent leadership.



This culture needs to change. 

One thing is also important to mention that in Pakistan critics go on criticising very harshly so the leadership find it useful to lie and get themself acquit.

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## fatman17

Pakistan Positioning For Aerospace Services Growth
Aviation Week & Space Technology
Pakistan is hoping to lean on skills and experience garnered from assembling jet trainers and combat aircraft in a bid to attract international aerospace companies to invest. Islamabad is pouring money into the creation of its first aerospace cluster, the National Aerospace Science and Technology Park (NASTP), part of its future vision to create an Aviation City around Kamra, home to the country’s aerospace efforts. The NASTP aerospace cluster will be located at Kamra, ........

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## Windjammer

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1051803663272939520


----------



## messiach

Yes {would russia be a part of it is an open field}



tps77 said:


> 5th Gen?
> Just yes or no.



No. They are independently producing turbines. It is for greater strategic ties.


Falcon26 said:


> China is believed to have bought those planes in order to study their engines and possibly reverse engineer them.

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## Falcon26

messiach said:


> Yes {would russia be a part of it is an open field}
> 
> 
> 
> No. They are independently producing turbines. It is for greater strategic ties.



China’s problems with engines are legendary. Apart from the increased loiter time of the su-35 in the South China Sea region, engines were the primary reasons they were sought.

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## Tps43

messiach said:


> Yes {would russia be a part of it is an open field}


Thnx , so my guess was right

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## LKJ86

LKJ86 said:


> J-11B/BS and J-16 all use WS-10 engines already, and they are 100% made in China. Besides, China has not officially purchases AL-31FNs from Russia last year yet.
> 
> But as what I said before, if China exports J-11 and J-16, they will affect Russia's arms sales directly. It will be sure to affect the relationship between China and Russia.


J-16 with WS-10 engines

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## messiach

Ok.


Falcon26 said:


> China’s problems with engines are legendary.

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## syed_yusuf

j-16/ j-11/ j-15 or any variant of them are not coming to PAF why?

1 - cost of purchase, support/ operational cost 
2 - Russian angle as these fighters cannot be exported.


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## LKJ86

syed_yusuf said:


> j-16/ j-11/ j-15 or any variant of them are not coming to PAF why?
> 
> 1 - cost of purchase
> 2 - Russian angle as these fighters cannot be exported.


J-15 is a carrier-based fighter.


----------



## syed_yusuf

LKJ86 said:


> J-15 is a carrier-based fighter.


i know, just wanted to make a sweeping statement.


----------



## YeBeWarned

tps77 said:


> Nope won't happen bro



just a thought bro ..

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## Ultima Thule

Falcon26 said:


> China’s problems with engines are legendary. Apart from the increased loiter time of the su-35 in the South China Sea region, engines were the primary reasons they were sought.


WS-10 more than 500+ in service @Falcon26


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## MastanKhan

Falcon26 said:


> China’s problems with engines are legendary. Apart from the increased loiter time of the su-35 in the South China Sea region, engines were the primary reasons they were sought.



Hi,

China's problems with the engine are no more legendary than any other nation which started building engines---.

The leaps that china has taken on engine building is un-precedented---.

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## LKJ86

Falcon26 said:


> China’s problems with engines are legendary. Apart from the increased loiter time of the su-35 in the South China Sea region, engines were the primary reasons they were sought.


During the development of WS-10 engine, China had made a huge number of mistakes that can be made, and spent a long time, but WS-10 engine has become mature and is in mass-production already.

Although WS-10 is not perfect, it has basically satisfied the needs of PLAAF for J-11/16/20. China has not officially purchases AL-31FNs from Russia last year yet. And you must know that, only USA, Russia, and China in the world are building the low bypass ratio, large thrust turbofan engines now.

Besides, WS-15 and WS-19 are also in development, and they won't take so much time as before any more, due to huge input and past experience.

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## Amigator

LKJ86 said:


> During the development of WS-10 engine, China had made a huge number of mistakes that can be made, and spent a long time, but WS-10 engine has become mature and is in mass-production already.
> 
> Although WS-10 is not perfect, it has basically satisfied the needs of PLAAF for J-11/16/20. China has not officially purchases AL-31FNs from Russia last year yet. And you must know that, only USA, Russia, and China in the world are building such engines now.
> 
> Besides, WS-15 and WS-19 are also in development, and they won't take so much time as before any more, due to huge input and past experience.


This is good for Pakistan Air force also. As we are not in position to develop a fighter plane engine in at least 15 years. So we will be using developed by China then.

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## Falcon26

LKJ86 said:


> During the development of WS-10 engine, China had made a huge number of mistakes that can be made, and spent a long time, but WS-10 engine has become mature and is in mass-production already.
> 
> Although WS-10 is not perfect, it has basically satisfied the needs of PLAAF for J-11/16/20. China has not officially purchases AL-31FNs from Russia last year yet. And you must know that, only USA, Russia, and China in the world are building such engines now.
> 
> Besides, WS-15 and WS-19 are also in development, and they won't take so much time as before any more, due to huge input and past experience.



You are placing the WS-10 in the same category and quality as it’s Russian, American, French and British counterparts? Granted the Chinese are making massive strides and might conceivably close the technology gap within a decade, no-one would claim the Chinese are there yet.



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> China's problems with the engine are no more legendary than any other nation which started building engines---.
> 
> The leaps that china has taken on engine building is un-precedented---.



None of that is under dispute but they aren’t there quite yet.

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## LKJ86

Falcon26 said:


> You are placing the WS-10 in the same category and quality as it’s Russian, American, French and British counterparts? Granted the Chinese are making massive strides and might conceivably close the technology gap within a decade, no-one would claim the Chinese are there yet.


I mean the low bypass ratio, large thrust turbofan engines. Only USA, Russia, and China in the world are building such engines now.


----------



## Amigator

When i read title in my google feed i also misunderstood it first for PAF. [emoji1] [emoji1] [emoji1] [emoji1] 

https://ptvnews.ph/dnd-likely-to-acquire-swedish-made-fighter-jets/


----------



## syed_yusuf

Falcon26 said:


> You are placing the WS-10 in the same category and quality as it’s Russian, American, French and British counterparts? Granted the Chinese are making massive strides and might conceivably close the technology gap within a decade, no-one would claim the Chinese are there yet.
> 
> 
> 
> None of that is under dispute but they aren’t there quite yet.


does french and Uk made big engines like russia and USA


----------



## araz

syed_yusuf said:


> does french and Uk made big engines like russia and USA


Snecma is French a d Rolls Royce make the EJ200 series engines for EFT. Then The Airbus engines are manufactured in EU so plenty of engines of various sizes are manufactured in EU.
A


----------



## LKJ86

araz said:


> Snecma is French a d Rolls Royce make the EJ200 series engines for EFT. Then The Airbus engines are manufactured in EU so plenty of engines of various sizes are manufactured in EU.
> A


No low bypass ratio, large thrust turbofan engines.


----------



## Dazzler



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## denel

Falcon26 said:


> You are placing the WS-10 in the same category and quality as it’s Russian, American, French and British counterparts? Granted the Chinese are making massive strides and might conceivably close the technology gap within a decade, no-one would claim the Chinese are there yet.
> 
> 
> 
> None of that is under dispute but they aren’t there quite yet.


I concur, they are coming close but not there yet; for now industrial espionage is one way where they are getting more insights from.

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## MastanKhan

denel said:


> I concur, they are coming close but not there yet; for now industrial espionage is one way where they are getting more insights from.



Hi,

Industrial espionage in reverse was used to sabotage their fighter aircraft engine project---.

20 years ago---the west already knew that the chinese would steal their product knowledge---.

For that reason---they sabotaged the material composition percentage of critical engine parts ( turbine blades ) and allowed the information to be stolen---.

The product worked perfect for a 100-200 hours under testing and then would break down---then re-configuration and rebuilding would set the program back by a few years---.

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## denel

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Industrial espionage in reverse was used to sabotage their fighter aircraft engine project---.
> 
> 20 years ago---the west already knew that the chinese would steal their product knowledge---.
> 
> For that reason---they sabotaged the material composition percentage of critical engine parts ( turbine blades ) and allowed the information to be stolen---.
> 
> The product worked perfect for a 100-200 hours under testing and then would break down---then re-configuration and rebuilding would set the program back by a few years---.


THey have a long way to go in localised engine production.


----------



## fatman17

Recent images (December 2017) indicated that Wing Long IIhas been undergoing weapon integration tests by launching various GPS/laser/IR guided air-to-air, air-to-surface missiles and bombs. The latest satellite image (October 2017) suggested that UAE has acquired the first batch of Wing Loong II UCAV. The latest news (October 2018) claimed that Pakistan plans to produce 48 Wing Loong II under licence at PAC Kamra.

- Last Updated 10/14/18

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## Chak Bamu

fatman17 said:


> Recent images (December 2017) indicated that Wing Long IIhas been undergoing weapon integration tests by launching various GPS/laser/IR guided air-to-air, air-to-surface missiles and bombs. The latest satellite image (October 2017) suggested that UAE has acquired the first batch of Wing Loong II UCAV. The latest news (October 2018) claimed that Pakistan plans to produce 48 Wing Loong II under licence at PAC Kamra.
> 
> - Last Updated 10/14/18
> 
> View attachment 505775



Would they be built at a separate facility or the one being used for JF-17 manufacturing?

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## jupiter2007

Most likely separate area will be setup for these since it will take few years to manufacture these.


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## araz

Chak Bamu said:


> Would they be built at a separate facility or the one being used for JF-17 manufacturing?


Likely to be separate but within the Kamra complex. It is intriguing how various facilities are being developed close together so resources can remain a common.
A


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## Thorough Pro

It would make sense to produce them in the same facility. You don't setup a brand new facility for just 48 samples.



Chak Bamu said:


> Would they be built at a separate facility or the one being used for JF-17 manufacturing?



and a big plum target in case of war. Never keep all your eggs in the same basket.



araz said:


> Likely to be separate but within the Kamra complex. It is intriguing how various facilities are being developed close together so resources can remain a common.
> A

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## fatman17

The latest image (October 2018) indicated that the first batch of 6 JF-17Ms were delivered to Myanmar Air Force, which has become the second customer of the aircraft.
- Last Updated 10/20/18

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## CriticalThought

fatman17 said:


> The latest image (October 2018) indicated that the first batch of 6 JF-17Ms were delivered to Myanmar Air Force, which has become the *second customer* of the aircraft.
> - Last Updated 10/20/18



So you are confirming Nigeria as the first customer?


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

CriticalThought said:


> So you are confirming Nigeria as the first customer?


2nd.
'First was Myanmar... with deal announced in 2015... at the French Air Show.


----------



## CriticalThought

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> 2nd.
> 'First was Myanmar... with deal announced in 2015... at the French Air Show.



His post says Myanmar airforce is the second customer...


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

CriticalThought said:


> His post says Myanmar airforce is the second customer...



*Pakistan wins first JF-17 order at Paris Air Show: PAF*
By Web Desk / AFP
Published: June 15, 2015
2SHARES
SHARE TWEET EMAIL




With a total 11 countries including Pakistan, China also markets the aircraft. PHOTO: APP

PARIS: After high expectations for a deal to pull through, Pakistan was successful in securing its first ever export order for its JF-17 Thunder fighter on Monday at the first day of the International Paris Air Show.

Air Commodore and Pakistan Air Force officer dealing in sales and marketing, Khalid Mahmood said *“A contract has been signed with an Asian country.”* However the name of the country was not disclosed and deliveries are likely to begin in 2017.

The report added that 80 people were promoting the JF-17 in Paris this year, reflecting a significant marketing push.



Read: Pakistan eager to secure first ever-order for the JF-17 at Paris Air Show

Due to security concerns and client sensitivities, Mahmood chose not to specify the name of the customer and the number of aircraft it will obtain from Pakistan.

Further, speaking to AFP from the Paris Air Show by phone, Air Commodore Syed Muhammad Ali said an order for the plane had been finalised but declined to give details.

“That’s the case, we’ve finalised the order,” he said, citing sensitivities for not naming the client, the number of aircraft or the date of delivery.

Mahmood further stated that the sales for the JF-17 had been delayed due to the political turmoil in numerous countries in the Middle East.

Having brought three aircraft to the show this year, one of them will make its flying debut.


https://tribune.com.pk/story/903828...order-at-international-paris-air-show-report/

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## araz

Thorough Pro said:


> It would make sense to produce them in the same facility. You don't setup a brand new facility for just 48 samples.
> 
> 
> 
> and a big plum target in case of war. Never keep all your eggs in the same basket.


beggers cannot be choosers my friend. I have thought of the consequences of clustering but the answers are not so easy.
A


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## Maxpane

Dazzler said:


> View attachment 505736


Sir is this for jf 17?


----------



## fatman17

Doesn't matter who's 1st or second. Nigeria ordered 1 batch of 3, whilst Myanmar ordered 1 batch of 16. This delivery is for Myanmar thus the JF17M designation. For Nigeria it's JF17N, but we all know that. Nigeria has plans to order a 2nd batch of 3 aircraft.

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## CriticalThought

fatman17 said:


> Doesn't matter who's 1st or second. Nigeria ordered 1 batch of 3, whilst Myanmar ordered 1 batch of 16. This delivery is for Myanmar thus the JF17M designation. For Nigeria it's JF17N, but we all know that. Nigeria has plans to order a 2nd batch of 3 aircraft.



Sir, what is the progress of deliveries to Nigeria?


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## Dazzler

Maxpane said:


> Sir is this for jf 17?



Hmd is a plug and play system. Can be used once in service.


----------



## fatman17

CriticalThought said:


> Sir, what is the progress of deliveries to Nigeria?


In 2019

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## ghazi52

ISLAMABAD: Chief of the Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan visited Headquarters of Royal Saudi Air Force during an official visit of Saudi Arabia.

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## GoldenRatio1618

Pakistan Air Force Needs Mig 25 like fighter jets which could fly up to 35 - 37 km high altitude and easily could penetrate into indian air space even S-400 on borders because S-400 can track the target up to 30 Km high altitude more than this limit S-400 can't trace nor it could kill it.

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## GriffinsRule

GoldenRatio1618 said:


> Pakistan Air Force Needs Mig 25 like fighter jets which could fly up to 35 - 37 km high altitude and easily could penetrate into indian air space even S-400 on borders because S-400 can track the target up to 30 Km high altitude more than this limit S-400 can't trace nor it could kill it.



Mig-25 was an interceptor designed to take out long range bombers, or for recon purposes. Since IAF does not field bombers and satellites have taken over the role from Mig-25, SR-71 etc, Pakistan needs to concentrate on science and technology to enable it to build and launch its own satellites.


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## Thorough Pro

I don't understand your post. What does lack of finances has to do with not putting all your eggs in the same basket? The lesser the resources, the more cautious one should be to disperse/safeguard them not the other way round.



araz said:


> beggers cannot be choosers my friend. I have thought of the consequences of clustering but the answers are not so easy.
> A


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## TOPGUN

We all know what PAF needs …. its all about what PAF can get and will get !!!!


----------



## araz

Thorough Pro said:


> I don't understand your post. What does lack of finances has to do with not putting all your eggs in the same basket? The lesser the resources, the more cautious one should be to disperse/safeguard them not the other way round.


Resource constraint in my view has various facets. Lack of trained personnel, ancillary support technologies, and administrative oversight demand clustering. We are not a developed setup where we have hundred and thousands of trained personnel. Transfer of material from one site to another has a cost to it. Considering all this clustering has been adopted. It is a necessity and accepts the limitation of ease of destruction in an attack as a plausible yet necessary /unavoidable action. I hope I have clarified my point of view. In any case in todays times where the location of each and every factory of strategic importance is known all it would require would be 2 different attacks rather than one and that should not be too difficult to manage for an opponent so it is at the end of the day a mute point in my very humble opinion.
A



ghazi52 said:


> ISLAMABAD: Chief of the Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan visited Headquarters of Royal Saudi Air Force during an official visit of Saudi Arabia.


Is this a standardcustomary visit or is there more behind it.
A


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## Falcon26

araz said:


> Resource constraint in my view has various facets. Lack of trained personnel, ancillary support technologies, and administrative oversight demand clustering. We are not a developed setup where we have hundred and thousands of trained personnel. Transfer of material from one site to another has a cost to it. Considering all this clustering has been adopted. It is a necessity and accepts the limitation of ease of destruction in an attack as a plausible yet necessary action. I hope I have clarified my point of view. In any case in todays times where the location of each and every factory of strategic importance is known all it would require would be 2 different attacks ratyer than one and that should not be too difficult to manage for an opponent so it is at the end of the day a mute point in my very humble opinion.
> A
> 
> 
> Is this a standard customafy visit or is there more behind it.
> A



Normal customary visit that’s being blown out of proportion


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## CriticalThought

Falcon26 said:


> Normal customary visit that’s being blown out of proportion



In light of IK's recent visit and the resulting outcomes, it does take on some significance.


----------



## hassan1



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## fatman17

Air Platforms

AVIC readies Wing Loong I-D prototype for maiden flight

Kelvin Wong, Singapore - Jane's International Defence Review

21 October 2018

State-owned aerospace and defence prime Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) is on track to perform the maiden flight of its new strike-capable Wing Loong I-D reconnaissance medium-altitude long-endurance unmanned aerial vehicle (MALE UAV) by the end of 2018, following the handover of an all-composite airframe for the prototype air vehicle by contractor Sichuan Xinwanxing Carbon Fiber Composite Co Ltd (Xinwanxing) in late August.

According to information released by Xinwanxing, the 330 kg composite airframe – which was fabricated at the company’s primary production facility in Jiajiang county, Sichuan province – measures 8.7 m long and 3.2 m tall with a wingspan of 17.6 m, matching the original specifications stated by AVIC at the 2016 iteration of the Airshow China exhibition where it first announced its intention to develop an improved variant of successful Wing Loong I UAV.

A scale model of the Wing Loong I-D was unveiled at Airshow China 2016. The prototype air vehicle is expected to perform its maiden flight by the end of 2018. (IHS Markit/Kelvin Wong)

The Wing Loong I-D will be powered by a piston engine, with the company aiming to achieve a maximum speed of 280 km/h and a service ceiling of 7,500 m (24,600 ft). An operating endurance of 35 hours is also desired.

AVIC also stated that the new variant will be capable of carrying up to 400 kg of external stores, although details of its internal carriage capacity have not been made public.

In contrast, the baseline Wing Loong I design comprises a conventional aluminium fuselage supported by composite structural components and has entered service with the People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) under the designation of Gongji-1 (Attack-1). It is also operated by the armed forces of Egypt, Kazakhstan, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and the UAE.

The Wing Loong I measures 9 m long, 2.8 m tall, and has a wingspan of 14 m. The air vehicle – which performed its maiden flight in 2007 following two years of development – has a maximum take-off weight (MTOW) of 1,200 kg and a maximum payload capacity of 200 kg, split evenly between internal and external stores.

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## fatman17

CriticalThought said:


> In light of IK's recent visit and the resulting outcomes, it does take on some significance.


What can PAF offer to KSAAF and vice versa. Probably nothing.


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## fatman17

If ordered now by a foreign customer, FC-31 could enter the production as early as 2019 and achieve IOC in 2022. The domestic land-based variant for PLAN might be called J-35.

- Last Updated 10/22/18

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## fatman17

fatman17 said:


> If ordered now by a foreign customer, FC-31 could enter the production as early as 2019 and achieve IOC in 2022. The domestic land-based variant for PLAN might be called J-35.
> 
> - Last Updated 10/22/18
> View attachment 507498


Its first foreign customer is likely to be Pakistani AF, which has been planning its own 4th generation stealth fighter based onFC-31 since late 2017.

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## Maxpane

SiR any interest from paf?


fatman17 said:


> If ordered now by a foreign customer, FC-31 could enter the production as early as 2019 and achieve IOC in 2022. The domestic land-based variant for PLAN might be called J-35.
> 
> - Last Updated 10/22/18
> View attachment 507498


----------



## LKJ86

fatman17 said:


> land-based variant


Carrier-based variant.

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## CriticalThought

fatman17 said:


> What can PAF offer to KSAAF and vice versa. Probably nothing.



Help in Yemen?


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## TOPGUN

LKJ86 said:


> Carrier-based variant.



On the land based variant can we see it in PAF ?


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## SQ8

CriticalThought said:


> Help in Yemen?


There is no skillset the PAF could transfer that the RSAF and other GCC forces don’t already know very well.

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## CriticalThought

Oscar said:


> There is no skillset the PAF could transfer that the RSAF and other GCC forces don’t already know very well.



But they certainly have not been very effective till now. How about teaching them about better drone surveillance and coordinated IBGs involving airforce and special forces?

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## fatman17

CriticalThought said:


> Help in Yemen?


Government will not allow


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## fatman17

CriticalThought said:


> But they certainly have not been very effective till now. How about teaching them about better drone surveillance and coordinated IBGs involving airforce and special forces?


They are being trained by the US.

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## fatman17

Maxpane said:


> SiR any interest from paf?


At some point, a PAF specific aircraft will certainly emerge. work has started since 2017.

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## CriticalThought

fatman17 said:


> They are being trained by the US.



That relationship is quickly souring. They need a backup plan.


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## Maxpane

fatman17 said:


> At some point, a PAF specific aircraft will certainly emerge. work has started since 2017.


Thank you sir for your kind reply


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## fatman17

Air Platforms

Pakistan approves Nigerian JF-17 production

Jeremy Binnie, London - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

25 October 2018

The Pakistani government’s Economic Coordination Committee (ECC) has approved a USD184.3 million sovereign guarantee covering the production of three PAC/CAC JF-17 Thunder fighters for Nigeria under a recently signed contract, the Pakistan Express Tribune reported on 24 October.

This is the first confirmation from Pakistan that Abuja has signed a contract for the JF-17, although payments totalling NGN19.7 billion (USD54 billion) were put aside for the aircraft in Nigeria’s 2016 and 2018 budgets.

At 30m $ per copy, Pakistan plans to sell at least 6 aircraft to Nigeria including infrastructure, training costs.

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## denel

fatman17 said:


> Air Platforms
> 
> Pakistan approves Nigerian JF-17 production
> 
> Jeremy Binnie, London - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
> 
> 25 October 2018
> 
> The Pakistani government’s Economic Coordination Committee (ECC) has approved a USD184.3 million sovereign guarantee covering the production of three PAC/CAC JF-17 Thunder fighters for Nigeria under a recently signed contract, the Pakistan Express Tribune reported on 24 October.
> 
> This is the first confirmation from Pakistan that Abuja has signed a contract for the JF-17, although payments totalling NGN19.7 billion (USD54 billion) were put aside for the aircraft in Nigeria’s 2016 and 2018 budgets.
> 
> At 30m $ per copy, Pakistan plans to sell at least 6 aircraft to Nigeria including infrastructure, training costs.


Good ... lets hope Nigerian crooks can pay you for delivery. They cannot be trusted with 1 cent.

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## Windjammer

denel said:


> Good ... lets hope Nigerian crooks can pay you for delivery. They cannot be trusted with 1 cent.


It's not the first contract with them, earlier PAC supplied NAF with about a dozen super Mashak trainers, some fitted for COIN operations.

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## denel

Windjammer said:


> It's not the first contract with them, earlier PAC supplied NAF with about a dozen super Mashak trainers, some fitted for COIN operations.



Yes, i am aware of it; i saw a whole fleet do a fly past a few months back on NTA which i pick up on C band dish. Hppe they paid for it . 

Nigerians cant be trusted with anything. Master fraudsters.

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## Windjammer

denel said:


> Yes, i am aware of it; i saw a whole fleet do a fly past a few months back on NTA which i pick up on C band dish. Hppe they paid for it .
> 
> Nigerians cant be trusted with anything. Master fraudsters.


As the saying goes....fool me once, shame on you....fool me twice.....shame on me.

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## salman77

*PAF To Participate In Zhuhai Airshow To Be Held Next Month In China*

*Pakistan Air Force (PAF) will participate in the 12th China International Aviation and Aerospace Exhibition, or the Zhuhai Airshow, scheduled to be held from Nov 6 to 11 in Zhuhai, south China's Guangdong Province.*

BEIJING, (UrduPoint / Pakistan Point News - 26th Oct, 2018 ) :Pakistan Air Force (PAF) will participate in the 12th China International Aviation and Aerospace Exhibition, or the Zhuhai Airshow, scheduled to be held from Nov 6 to 11 in Zhuhai, south China's Guangdong Province.

The Chinese PLA Air Force has sent invitations to foreign Air Forces. Up to date, Air Forces (Air Self-Defense Force) from 43 countries including Russia, Pakistan, the UK, Japan, ROK, and Australiahave confirmed to participate, according to a senior official of the Chinese Ministry of Defence here.

During the Airshow, there will be aerobatic performances by the August 1st and Red Eagle Aerobatic Teams from the PLA Air Force, and the Saudi Hawk Aerobatic Team from Saudi Arabia Royal Air Force.


The PLA Air Force will also hold the 5th International Military Flight and Training Conference fromNov. 4th to 5th.

Since its inception in 1996, the scale of Zhuhai Airshow has been expanding steadily and the level of exhibition equipment has been increasing year by year.

It has become a major airplane exhibition in the Asian-Pacific region or even the world in regard to its scale and influence.

https://www.urdupoint.com/en/pakistan/paf-to-participate-in-zhuhai-airshow-to-be-he-465548.html


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## fatman17

denel said:


> Yes, i am aware of it; i saw a whole fleet do a fly past a few months back on NTA which i pick up on C band dish. Hppe they paid for it .
> 
> Nigerians cant be trusted with anything. Master fraudsters.


In such deals, payment is received in advance.

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## Dazzler

denel said:


> Good ... lets hope Nigerian crooks can pay you for delivery. They cannot be trusted with 1 cent.



They are corrupt indeed. I can vouch for that but this involves national security which is something they are not in a position to mess with. Also, they made timely payments for Super Mashak.

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## Readerdefence

CriticalThought said:


> That relationship is quickly souring. They need a backup plan.


Hi another back plan is Chinese training with Chinese drones if I’m not wrong 
Thank you


----------



## LKJ86



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## Akasa

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 508813
> View attachment 508814
> View attachment 508815
> 
> 
> View attachment 508832
> 
> 
> View attachment 508855
> 
> 
> View attachment 508923



Put this and a couple of conformal tanks onto a J-10C and PAF would have itself a capable 4.5-generation platform.

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## Muhammad Omar

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 508813
> 
> View attachment 508855
> 
> View attachment 508923
> 
> View attachment 508814
> 
> View attachment 508815
> 
> View attachment 508832


The best possible option to replace Aeging PAF Mirages


----------



## TOPGUN

Like I always said PAF needs the J-10C, love this bird !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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## salman-1

Paf should stop day dreaming of having more western fighters of any kind. Buy this top class J-10c, why not if we can use F7 type fighters for 3 decades or more, why can't use this modular baby.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Akasa said:


> Put this and a couple of conformal tanks onto a J-10C and PAF would have itself a capable 4.5-generation platform.





Muhammad Omar said:


> The best possible option to replace Aeging PAF Mirages





TOPGUN said:


> Like I always said PAF needs the J-10C, love this bird !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!





salman-1 said:


> Paf should stop day dreaming of having more western fighters of any kind. Buy this top class J-10c, why not if we can use F7 type fighters for 3 decades or more, why can't use this modular baby.


The J-10C is not yet for sale. China is only marketing the J-10A (FC-20).

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## Muhammad Omar

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The J-10C is not yet for sale. China is only marketing the J-10A (FC-20).



Hmm but at Zuhai Airshow 2018 J-10B with TVC Engine is there so are they marketing B variant for Export ??


----------



## Akasa

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The J-10C is not yet for sale. China is only marketing the J-10A (FC-20).



"Yet"; things might change once a domestic engine is installed.


----------



## Readerdefence

Akasa said:


> "Yet"; things might change once a domestic engine is installed.


Hi akasa a technical Q from you although China is marketing j10a but do you think they still running the A assembly lines as what I have read and saw the pictures of B&C A lines must have been disassembled to give way for higher blocks so it doesn’t make sense until unless 5bey want to phase out A block fighters from their stock which are not even new planes 
You input will be appreciated 
Thank you


----------



## Akasa

Readerdefence said:


> Hi akasa a technical Q from you although China is marketing j10a but do you think they still running the A assembly lines as what I have read and saw the pictures of B&C A lines must have been disassembled to give way for higher blocks so it doesn’t make sense until unless 5bey want to phase out A block fighters from their stock which are not even new planes
> You input will be appreciated
> Thank you



I don't think they would keep J-10A assembly lines if production has already stopped, although that doesn't mean they won't be able to reactivate it some time in the future.

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## salman-1

J 10 A has been discontinued for years and around 250 to 300 J 10 B have already been Inducted, the C has now been in testing for some time. Usually China doesn't show its new gadgets to public unless basic certification is already done. The testing videos or pictures being shown of C are more symbolic than real first testing images. Product is ready and available.

Only a Musharaf type enthusiast general or Air Marshall is required to push Paf to realise its actual needs on ground. Not in papers

Mirages now belong more on 80-90 chowks and round abouts around the country than on Paf bases.


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## fatman17

Nigeria is making progress in its JF-17 fighter jet acquisition program. The country recently signed a $184.3 million contract with Pakistan that covers the production of three PAC/CAC JF-17 Thunder fighters. The Thunder is a joint Chinese-Pakistani project aimed at reduceing Pakistan’s dependence on western firms for advanced fighters, by fielding a low-cost multi-role lightweight fighter that can host modern electronics and precision-guided weapons. The fighter jet is a single engine, lightweight, multipurpose combat aircraft that costs $20 million per unit. Nigeria earmarked about $54 billion for the JF-17 program in its 2016 and 2018 budgets.

Europe

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## Maxpane

now we are exporting aircrafts .


----------



## hassan1



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## Dazzler

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 510284
> View attachment 510286
> View attachment 510287



wrong thread.


----------



## Trailer23

Maxpane said:


> now we are exporting aircrafts .


Yeah it is a good feeling, although I think _Nigeria_ might officially be our first customer since we have suspended sale of the JF-17 to _Myanmar_.

Source: *Morning Mail*
https://morning.pk/story/11661

*Q.* Is _Nigeria_ going for the conventional JF-17 (1-seater) or the JF-17B (Duel-Seater)?

Block 2 would be pointless when they have no Air-to-Air Refueling.


----------



## khanasifm

fatman17 said:


> Nigeria is making progress in its JF-17 fighter jet acquisition program. The country recently signed a $184.3 million contract with Pakistan that covers the production of three PAC/CAC JF-17 Thunder fighters. The Thunder is a joint Chinese-Pakistani project aimed at reduceing Pakistan’s dependence on western firms for advanced fighters, by fielding a low-cost multi-role lightweight fighter that can host modern electronics and precision-guided weapons. The fighter jet is a single engine, lightweight, multipurpose combat aircraft that costs $20 million per unit. Nigeria earmarked about $54 billion for the JF-17 program in its 2016 and 2018 budgets.
> 
> Europe



Million not billion $  Janes also had typo

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## Windjammer



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## ghazi52

Today three PAF's JF-17s arrived at Zhuhai (China) Airshow.


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## Trailer23

How long before _would_ the PAF consider replacing the K-8 Karakorum Trainer?

*T-50*: would never be in conversation as it has a *Lockheed Martin* label on it.





*YAK-130*: though a sweet Trainer/Light Attack jet. But i'm not sure if we'd get the support from the Russians, considering they have strong relations with our neighbors.





*L-15*: now THAT would be ideal as it can also carry upto 3 tons of armament. We could produce those just as we did the K-8.


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## Hassan Guy

Trailer23 said:


> How long before _would_ the PAF consider replacing the K-8 Karakorum Trainer?
> 
> *T-50*: would never be in conversation as it has a *Lockheed Martin* label on it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *YAK-130*: though a sweet Trainer/Light Attack jet. But i'm not sure if we'd get the support from the Russians, considering they have strong relations with our neighbors.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *L-15*: now THAT would be ideal as it can also carry upto 3 tons of armament. We could produce those just as we did the K-8.


Still around 10 years, by then the Turkish Hurjet could be a real option.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Trailer23 said:


> How long before _would_ the PAF consider replacing the K-8 Karakorum Trainer?
> 
> *T-50*: would never be in conversation as it has a *Lockheed Martin* label on it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *YAK-130*: though a sweet Trainer/Light Attack jet. But i'm not sure if we'd get the support from the Russians, considering they have strong relations with our neighbors.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *L-15*: now THAT would be ideal as it can also carry upto 3 tons of armament. We could produce those just as we did the K-8.





Hassan Guy said:


> Still around 10 years, by then the Turkish Hurjet could be a real option.


Likeliest outcome is to build next-gen K-8s or remanufacture the existing ones with service life extension, new engines and electronics.

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## messiach

Lovely plane. Did a lot of work on these wings.



Windjammer said:


> View attachment 510789

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## hassan1




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## SQ8

messiach said:


> Lovely plane. Did a lot of work on these wings.


Seems Grumman started the idea of the double delta on the F-7, if the old concept paper drawings are to be believed.

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## M16174

New PAF fighter jet unveiling on 29th of this month.
PAF said in a programme regarding negotiations with Russia on Su-35 but J-10b was also kept in view.
Do you think so PAF can buy a fleet with its limited budget ?


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## Maxpane

M16174 said:


> View attachment 512678
> New PAF fighter jet unveiling on 29th of this month.
> PAF said in a programme regarding negotiations with Russia on Su-35 but J-10b was also kept in view.
> Do you think so PAF can buy a fleet with its limited budget ?


If its true then its great news

NGFA stands for?


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## M16174

Maxpane said:


> If its true then its great news
> 
> NGFA stands for?




I think NEXT GENERATION FIGHTER AIRCRAFT 
might be 4.5+gen
or less possibly 5thgen


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## Maxpane

M16174 said:


> I think NEXT GENERATION FIGHTER AIRCRAFT
> might be 4.5+gen
> or less possibly 5thgen


Hm ok sir


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## Tps43

M16174 said:


> View attachment 512678
> New PAF fighter jet unveiling on 29th of this month.
> PAF said in a programme regarding negotiations with Russia on Su-35 but J-10b was also kept in view.
> Do you think so PAF can buy a fleet with its limited budget ?


JF 17 blk 3 nothing else


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## M16174

tps77 said:


> JF 17 blk 3 nothing else




Brother, Jf-17 is not a "new fighter aircraft" 
Also,work on Jf-17 blk3 is going to start in 2019.

it is written in the details of event that new fighter aircraft induction and challenges of handling it.

Remember the order of J10 to china from PAF in 2008 or later. The fleet hasn't been delivered to PAF since.
There was a cancellation but might be J10b's were ordered instead in 2015.

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## Tps43

M16174 said:


> Brother, Jf-17 is not a "new fighter aircraft"
> Also,work on Jf-17 blk3 is going to start in 2019.
> 
> it is written in the details of event that new fighter aircraft induction and challenges of handling it.
> 
> Remember the order of J10 to china from PAF in 2008 or later. The fleet hasn't been delivered to PAF since.
> There was a cancellation but might be J10b's were ordered instead in 2015.


I know . and Agreed but Let us wait For now . I know something but won't disclose now

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## Ultima Thule

M16174 said:


> Brother, Jf-17 is not a "new fighter aircraft"
> Also,work on Jf-17 blk3 is going to start in 2019.
> 
> it is written in the details of event that new fighter aircraft induction and challenges of handling it.
> 
> Remember the order of J10 to china from PAF in 2008 or later. The fleet hasn't been delivered to PAF since.
> There was a cancellation but might be J10b's were ordered instead in 2015.


bro yes its not new jet but i am telling you, its heavily upgraded jet and work started on Blk-3 was in 2014-15 at least just like F-16 versions and as for J-10 ZARDARI eats J-10 procurement funds that's why we don't purchase it @M16174

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## The Eagle

M16174 said:


> View attachment 512678
> New PAF fighter jet unveiling on 29th of this month.
> PAF said in a programme regarding negotiations with Russia on Su-35 but J-10b was also kept in view.
> Do you think so PAF can buy a fleet with its limited budget ?



These are topics, suggested for the speakers to discuss points and does not disclose any induction/unveiling of New Fighter Jet. This is not an announcement of induction of fighter jet on 29th.

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## fatman17

pakistanipower said:


> bro yes its not new jet but i am telling you, its heavily upgraded jet and work started on Blk-3 was in 2014-15 at least just like F-16 versions and as for J-10 ZARDARI eats J-10 procurement funds that's why we don't purchase it @M16174


Actually mushy cancelled the J10 procurement

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## denel

Trailer23 said:


> How long before _would_ the PAF consider replacing the K-8 Karakorum Trainer?
> 
> *T-50*: would never be in conversation as it has a *Lockheed Martin* label on it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *YAK-130*: though a sweet Trainer/Light Attack jet. But i'm not sure if we'd get the support from the Russians, considering they have strong relations with our neighbors.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *L-15*: now THAT would be ideal as it can also carry upto 3 tons of armament. We could produce those just as we did the K-8.


Friend, K8 needs to be re-worked into K-8NG or someother designation; no need to replace; it is a good overall frame for what it is capable; the challenge is the laid back attitude for not doing anything in terms of next cycle improvements.

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## ghazi52

*Air Marshal Asim Zaheer appointed Vice Chief of Air Staff*

November 3, 2018






Air Marshal Asim Zaheer. 

Air Marshal Asim Zaheer was appointed as the Vice Chief of Air Staff on Saturday.

The newly appointed vice chief has earlier commanded a fighter squadron, an operational air base and the PAF Academy in Risalpur.

Air Marshal Zaheer was commissioned in 1984.

He also served as the chief project director (CPD) Falcon, deputy director operations (F-16) as well as an air defence attaché to France.

He was currently designated as the Deputy Chief of Air Staff (Administration).

Air Marshal Zaheer is a graduate of Combat Commanders’ School, National Defence University and General Staff College, Germany and is a qualified flying instructor.

He holds a master’s degree in war studies and is a recipient of Hilal-e-Imtiaz.


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## salman-1

Two to three months back when new Air chief was brought in, a Paf friend of mine I formed me that 2-3 teams have been sent abroad for evaluation and study of new options. He described J10 as the most possible option to be selected.


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## ziaulislam

mingle said:


> It's just Hello or we may get EF Italy have stored them.


Discussed to death EF is expensive to operate and those of tranch 1 are seemingly expensive to update for multirole (rather than air Superiority) last high chances if sanctions more than uncle sam, you sneez here and germans will sanction you

British did uodated their tranche 1 for 5-10 million for decent a2g roles(block 5 trench 1 had same FOC as trench 2-3) There are plenty of EF lying around in every country (england, austria, spain etc)..if the price drops to sub 40m and PAF has enough money to get 60 odd than it looks to be good aircraft but just don't sneez otherwise germans will block it


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## Maxpane

Sir what about jh 7 a and j 10 c?. Can china sell us j 10 c?


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## Ultima Thule

Maxpane said:


> Sir what about jh 7 a and j 10 c?. Can china sell us j 10 c?


China willing do so but remember JF-17 BLK-3 is almost similar, except range and payloads @Maxpane


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## ziaulislam

Maxpane said:


> Sir what about jh 7 a and j 10 c?. Can china sell us j 10 c?


Jh-7 is outdated old plateform..one wonders about j10c offering same weapons and basic tech as willcome with thunder..you want a different approach/weapon system


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## Maxpane

pakistanipower said:


> China willing do so but remember JF-17 BLK-3 is almost similar, except range and payloads @Maxpane


Thank you sir . Sir can i ask a question ? What is the combat radius of jf 17?



ziaulislam said:


> Jh-7 is outdated old plateform..one wonders about j10c offering same weapons and basic tech as willcome with thunder..you want a different approach/weapon system


So any idea sir ?


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## Ultima Thule

Maxpane said:


> Thank you sir . Sir can i ask a question ? What is the combat radius of jf 17?


1,352 km km or 700 miles @Maxpane


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## Maxpane

pakistanipower said:


> 1,352 km km or 700 miles @Maxpane


And j 10 sir?


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## Ultima Thule

Maxpane said:


> And j 10 sir?


1850 km or 1150 miles @Maxpane


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## Maxpane

pakistanipower said:


> 1850 km or 1150 miles @Maxpane


Ok . Thank you sir


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## salman-1

This beast can fulfil all jobs like F16s. Just have to take initiative


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## messiach

Flow fields, vortex flow control & latency of vortex breakdown is impressive at low AoA. Just a mini F16 but overall significantly inferior to FC1. 


Oscar said:


> Seems Grumman started the idea of the double delta on the F-7, if the old concept paper drawings are to be believed.

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## Trailer23

salman-1 said:


> ...*2-3 teams* have been sent abroad for evaluation and study of new options. He described J10 as the most possible option to be selected.


Okay, lets say 2-3 Teams were sent. Each Team would probably go to one country.
Now One being China, as you already mentioned the J10.
What about the other Two?
US (not a chance in hell)
France (can't affort 'em)
Sweden (can't afford those, either)
Russia (ehh, more loyal to neighbours)

What about seeking (used) F-16's from Turkey, Egypt, Jordan (again), or from the East...?


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## khanasifm

The country is begging for loans and grants to pay short term debt and folks here have a wish list 

Educate masses and become an economic power first and rest will follow

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## salman-1

Trailer23 said:


> Okay, lets say 2-3 Teams were sent. Each Team would probably go to one country.
> Now One being China, as you already mentioned the J10.
> What about the other Two?
> US (not a chance in hell)
> France (can't affort 'em)
> Sweden (can't afford those, either)
> Russia (ehh, more loyal to neighbours)
> 
> What about seeking (used) F-16's from Turkey, Egypt, Jordan (again), or from the East...?


Yes brother Russian also showed thier Su 35. These teams are not there just to see shows, but access the technical aspects of setting maintenance depots, training supplies of parts etc. My friend also told me one team bought Mirage engine parts from south Africa at throw away prices. Not all details he shared but specifically mentioned the J10 inspection from all aspects.


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## ACE OF THE AIR

ziaulislam said:


> Discussed to death EF is expensive to operate and those of tranch 1 are seemingly expensive to update for multirole (rather than air Superiority) last high chances if sanctions more than uncle sam, you sneez here and germans will sanction you
> 
> British did uodated their tranche 1 for 5-10 million for decent a2g roles(block 5 trench 1 had same FOC as trench 2-3) There are plenty of EF lying around in every country (england, austria, spain etc)..if the price drops to sub 40m and PAF has enough money to get 60 odd than it looks to be good aircraft but just don't sneez otherwise germans will block it



Sir,
EFT Tranche I = Air superiority. 
EFT is expensive to operate as it has twin engines, this logic does not count when it is based on what it can achieve. 

Over the years PAF operated various twin engine aircraft, however some good or bad decision lead PAF to remove them by premature retirement which left behind a void in capabilities. Till this day since 1965 PAF has never recovered form the loss of air superiority it faced once F-104's were grounded, this was felt in 5 years time. PAF did try to address this by a concept of aerial deniability by inducting Mirrage III and V which are till date operational (40 years). 

Some seniors still criticize that the induction of these Mirages
(a) could have come earlier and 
(b) them being stationed not just in WEST PAKISTAN but in EAST PAKISTAN with an offensive role could have had a different out come all together. 

B-57 Canberra 
This was a Twin engined deep strike bomber which was once again retired without adequate replacement. Till date PAF lacks a decent strike platform. 

Made shifts that were introduced were F-7s and F-5 both were Twin engine aircraft, both have been retired with limited numbers of JF-17. 

GOP can generate no more that $200 million per year for operational costs of a twin engine aircraft and give this to PAF, not a high price of having Freedom of Independence for the citizens of Pakistan.


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## Trailer23

khanasifm said:


> The country is begging for loans and grants to pay short term debt and folks here have a wish list


Agreed...

But isn't there a Defense Budget that separates from the Nation Budget. I always assumed that regardless of what the country requires to stay afloat...economically (Petrol, Trade, Education, Health etc.) - it doesn't compromise with the Dept. of Defense.

I recall Minister of Information (Fawad Chaudry) bringing it up in one of his Press Briefs recently. If I find it, i'll attach the link.


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## ziaulislam

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Sir,
> EFT Tranche I = Air superiority.
> EFT is expensive to operate as it has twin engines, this logic does not count when it is based on what it can achieve.
> 
> Over the years PAF operated various twin engine aircraft, however some good or bad decision lead PAF to remove them by premature retirement which left behind a void in capabilities. Till this day since 1965 PAF has never recovered form the loss of air superiority it faced once F-104's were grounded, this was felt in 5 years time. PAF did try to address this by a concept of aerial deniability by inducting Mirrage III and V which are till date operational (40 years).
> 
> Some seniors still criticize that the induction of these Mirages
> (a) could have come earlier and
> (b) them being stationed not just in WEST PAKISTAN but in EAST PAKISTAN with an offensive role could have had a different out come all together.
> 
> B-57 Canberra
> This was a Twin engined deep strike bomber which was once again retired without adequate replacement. Till date PAF lacks a decent strike platform.
> 
> Made shifts that were introduced were F-7s and F-5 both were Twin engine aircraft, both have been retired with limited numbers of JF-17.
> 
> GOP can generate no more that $200 million per year for operational costs of a twin engine aircraft and give this to PAF, not a high price of having Freedom of Independence for the citizens of Pakistan.


trench 1 update 5 can carry all air to ground weapons and pods as any other trench ..ot has same FOC certification ..there might be some deficiencies but its a prettyuch multirole ..however the update and cost of used aircraft's it self is pretty high..i doubt PAF can Get them less thsn 80 m making them a very expensive option ..than there is the issue of us sneezing and getting an embargo


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## SQ8

messiach said:


> Flow fields, vortex flow control & latency of vortex breakdown is impressive at low AoA. Just a mini F16 but overall significantly inferior to FC1.


Its a potent WVR fighter for which they used a off boresight system as well reportedly; makes it a good close in kill system. Still obsolete as such by today’s standards


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## Readerdefence

ziaulislam said:


> Discussed to death EF is expensive to operate and those of tranch 1 are seemingly expensive to update for multirole (rather than air Superiority) last high chances if sanctions more than uncle sam, you sneez here and germans will sanction you
> 
> British did uodated their tranche 1 for 5-10 million for decent a2g roles(block 5 trench 1 had same FOC as trench 2-3) There are plenty of EF lying around in every country (england, austria, spain etc)..if the price drops to sub 40m and PAF has enough money to get 60 odd than it looks to be good aircraft but just don't sneez otherwise germans will block it


Hi zia can you elaborate why Germans are not blocking Saudi EF upgradition and overhauling 
As on number of occasions they have put up arms embargo against Saudis 
Thank you


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

fatman17 said:


> Actually mushy cancelled the J10 procurement


Mushy approved the purchase of 36 F-16 Block-52+ and 36 FC-20 (J-10A).

However, due to a lack of funding in 2009-2013, the PAF had to walk away from the 36 FC-20 (and the optional 18 F-16 Block-52+). Basically, no new fighters aside from the JF-17.

In November 2016, Jane's reported that the PAF was looking for 30-40 new fighters to serve as a bridge to the Next-Gen Fighter. The Su-35 and J-10 were the leading options. 

If the new fighter program is still happening, then I imagine it'll be tied into Project Azm (e.g., offset into Aviation City). One plausible outcome is convincing China to sell 40 J-10Cs and then tying up with Chengdu to work on a joint PLAAF-PAF lightweight 5th gen fighter.

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## ziaulislam

Readerdefence said:


> Hi zia can you elaborate why Germans are not blocking Saudi EF upgradition and overhauling
> As on number of occasions they have put up arms embargo against Saudis
> Thank you


because saudis pumps 11 million barrel oil per day....
money talks...
why do you think no body cares what Israel or india does..india blinded 100s of people no body cared..

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## ACE OF THE AIR

ziaulislam said:


> trench 1 update 5 can carry all air to ground weapons and pods as any other trench ..ot has same FOC certification ..there might be some deficiencies but its a prettyuch multirole ..however the update and cost of used aircraft's it self is pretty high..i doubt PAF can Get them less thsn 80 m making them a very expensive option ..than there is the issue of us sneezing and getting an embargo


Sir,
In my earlier post I specifically quoted what are PAF's Requirements i.e Air Superiority. 
In that role the Tranche 1 do not need any upgrades for the time being i.e Short term 5-10 years. 
NB: This is if Project AZM is really progressing at its ideal pace, however, might not be possible. 

As far as I know update 5 required wings to be strengthened (New wings) along with other modifications. The delay in its research meant costs increased but now have significantly reduced due to demands from Middle East along with Germany (which is in the process of upgrading their entire fleet along with capability to fire US made Nuclear Arsenal). 

PAF would have F-16 & JF-17 available for dedicated ground strike roles with EFT's giving them Top Cover.

Remember the initial offer by BAE Systems to India for 126 aircraft was for $7 Billion which included a new production facility. This comes down to $55.5 million. These were Tranche 2 aircraft that did not include AESA radars. 

The issue of USA embargoing sales by European Union once signed prior would never be accepted by the European Parliament or European Court of Justice. 

You already have seen this in case of Iran. 



Readerdefence said:


> Hi zia can you elaborate why Germans are not blocking Saudi EF upgradition and overhauling
> As on number of occasions they have put up arms embargo against Saudis
> Thank you


The German Parliament can not enforce a trade embargo on deas already in effect as European Court of Justice would never tolerate retrospective effect. This can be seen with the case of Iran



ziaulislam said:


> because saudis pumps 11 million barrel oil per day....
> money talks...
> why do you think no body cares what Israel or india does..india blinded 100s of people no body cared..


Its not just money. There are other factors too.



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> One plausible outcome is convincing China to sell 40 J-10Cs and then tying up with Chengdu to work on a joint PLAAF-PAF lightweight 5th gen fighter.


Sir, 
With due respect I would like to ask why PAF is once again going to repeat its mistakes. If PAF purchases J-10's then it will one again have a single source once F-16's are embargoed. China though a strategic partner / all weather friend / brother what ever one may call it can also act against in the time of need by saying not this time sorry. 

Light weight 5th Gen PLAAF does not need nor dose PLAAN. They have already showcased J-31 as a light weight 5th Generation aircraft for export. Unfortunately no one is willing to purchase it. 

The only way possible For PAF to procure 5th Gen aircraft is through Turkey provided TFX wishes to provide the single engine design and technical knowledge.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Sir,
> With due respect I would like to ask why PAF is once again going to repeat its mistakes. If PAF purchases J-10's then it will one again have a single source once F-16's are embargoed. China though a strategic partner / all weather friend / brother what ever one may call it can also act against in the time of need by saying not this time sorry.
> 
> Light weight 5th Gen PLAAF does not need nor dose PLAAN. They have already showcased J-31 as a light weight 5th Generation aircraft for export. Unfortunately no one is willing to purchase it.
> 
> The only way possible For PAF to procure 5th Gen aircraft is through Turkey provided TFX wishes to provide the single engine design and technical knowledge.


Those are all valid concerns, but Pakistan's reliance on China (and to an extent, Europe and the US) stems from our inability to produce core systems such as gas turbines, semi-conductors, aviation grade steel, etc. We want to make radars and planes, but without mastery of the core stuff, we'll always rely on someone -- due to our lack of funding, that source is mostly China.

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## fatman17

GJ-2 Wing Loong II


It was first unveiled inSeptember 2015 that a bigger and more powerful variantcalled Wing Loong II (WD-2K/GJ-2?) was under development at the 611 Institute and GAAC. It is powered by a new turboprop engine (WJ-9? 456kW) and can carry up to 12 ATGMs. Its MTOW is 4,200kg, max external load is 480kg, max speed is 370km/hr, ceilingis 9,000m, endurance is 20hr. The UCAV also has an SAR radar installed in its nose for acquiring ground target in poor weather conditions. A small datalink antenna for guiding missiles was also installed underneath the starboard side of the forward fuselage. The maiden flight of the 01 prototype took place on February 27, 2017.Wing Loong II was speculated to have beenordered by PLAAF, UAE, Saudi Arabia (300?), and possibly Egypt. Recent images (December 2017) indicated that Wing Long IIhas been undergoing weapon integration tests by launching various GPS/laser/IR guided air-to-air, air-to-surface missiles and bombs. A recent satellite image (October 2017) suggested that UAE has acquired the first batch of Wing Loong II UCAV. The latest news (October 2018) claimed that Pakistan plans to produce 48 Wing Loong II under licence at PAC Kamra. The latest image (November 2018) indicated that Wing Loong II has entered the service with PLAAF as GJ-2.

- Last Updated 11/2/18


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## M16174

Did any one find Jf-17 blk3 design clue from PAF song.
Aye watan Song by Paf, in which the aeronautical Engineer watches the computer screens displaying aircraft blue prints in PAC kamra.

Animation Looks bit familiar to f-18 in 1st screen but in second one you can see f16 and Jf-17-blk 3 with two rudders.

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## Muhammad Omar

M16174 said:


> View attachment 512678
> New PAF fighter jet unveiling on 29th of this month.
> PAF said in a programme regarding negotiations with Russia on Su-35 but J-10b was also kept in view.
> Do you think so PAF can buy a fleet with its limited budget ?




JF-17 B variant induction most probably



M16174 said:


> Did any one find Jf-17 blk3 design clue from PAF song.
> Aye watan Song by Paf, in which the aeronautical Engineer watches the computer screens displaying aircraft blue prints in PAC kamra.
> 
> Animation Looks bit familiar to f-18 in 1st screen but in second one you can see f16 and Jf-17-blk 3 with two rudders.
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 514988
> View attachment 514989
> View attachment 514990


Damn


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## M16174

Muhammad Omar said:


> JF-17 B variant induction most probably
> 
> 
> Damn



Friend if you observe the last picture, it's neither f18, look at elevons, its jf17.
and nor jf17 b, look, its one seat.
and intake is under fuselage I think.


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## Trailer23

M16174 said:


> Did any one find Jf-17 blk3 design clue from PAF song.
> Aye watan Song by Paf, in which the aeronautical Engineer watches the computer screens displaying aircraft blue prints in PAC kamra.
> 
> Animation Looks bit familiar to f-18 in 1st screen but in second one you can see f16 and Jf-17-blk 3 with two rudders.


In the movie business they call them 'Easter Eggs', but it seems more likely that its just 3D Max/Maya mixed with Adobe After Effects.

It would have been more believable had they not of been...acting.


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## M16174

Trailer23 said:


> In the movie business they call them 'Easter Eggs', but it seems more likely that its just 3D Max/Maya mixed with Adobe After Effects.
> 
> It would have been more believable had they not of been...acting.



definitely it was an acting. but don't you really think so that they would have downloaded such big size software for just a blue print display for 3-4 seconds, and that within a song. !!!!!!
I just want to say, that the man in song just opened the aircraft design file present in the system to pretend like an engineer .

Might i be wrong, but the design of an aircraft in last picture stimulates me to think of blk 3.


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## Trailer23

M16174 said:


> but don't you really think so that they would have downloaded such big size software for just a blue print display for 3-4 seconds, and that within a song. !!!!!!


Look, anything is possible. But since this was edited by a Post Production House, its very likely that they have all these softwares available as it is.

Maybe it is 'B' version - maybe its a Block III.

Only time will tell...


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## Path-Finder

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1059411813115289600


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## araz

M16174 said:


> Did any one find Jf-17 blk3 design clue from PAF song.
> Aye watan Song by Paf, in which the aeronautical Engineer watches the computer screens displaying aircraft blue prints in PAC kamra.
> 
> Animation Looks bit familiar to f-18 in 1st screen but in second one you can see f16 and Jf-17-blk 3 with two rudders.
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 514988
> View attachment 514989
> View attachment 514990


Hmmm! a twin engined fighter with in 2-3 yrs. I think this is not it. I do not see the benefit in a twin engined JFT with 8-10 HPs. We need a stronger engine and if need be HPs can be increased although with dual racks do we really need to throw the money and time when there is an easier option available???
A


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Those are all valid concerns, but Pakistan's reliance on China (and to an extent, Europe and the US) stems from our inability to produce core systems such as gas turbines, semi-conductors, aviation grade steel, etc. We want to make radars and planes, but without mastery of the core stuff, we'll always rely on someone -- due to our lack of funding, that source is mostly China.


Sir,
Pakistan is not under any sanctions at the time being, armed forces must sit with the bureaucrats and convince them to take steps in which these problems are solved then ask the parliamentarians / politicians to pass orders implementing these agreements. There are many other sources that can offer semi-conductors, aviation grade steel etc. As far as engines are concerned Pakistan must also get in contact with British, Italians and Ukrainians as they can provide decent engines. Potentially Turkey would one day become also a potential engine exporter.

Pakistan is good at cherry picking may be some thing extraordinary comes out with limited resources from most unlikely places.

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## ghazi52

Pakistan Air Force Falcons in 1955
Photo Courtesy : Natasha Bukhari

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> aviation grade steel,


Sir, 
In my earlier reply I left this out so that proper research could be done before a reply could be given with proper facts and sources. 

These days modern aircraft use mostly carbon fiber composites fused with titanium alloy. Two potential sources for high grade titanium alloy are Canada and Italy. Italy should be the ideal choice as it produce both the material in high grades. These are used for EFT wing and engine. More diversified approach could be through Canada which includes acquiring the technique to forge the Titanium alloy something they have been doing since the late 50's. (Remember the AVRO ARROW). They still have the Canadian Engine technology that was meant to power prototype 4. 

To really spice up the things ask Turkey to provide access to how they make the F-35's weapons bay.

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## Readerdefence

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Sir,
> In my earlier post I specifically quoted what are PAF's Requirements i.e Air Superiority.
> In that role the Tranche 1 do not need any upgrades for the time being i.e Short term 5-10 years.
> NB: This is if Project AZM is really progressing at its ideal pace, however, might not be possible.
> 
> As far as I know update 5 required wings to be strengthened (New wings) along with other modifications. The delay in its research meant costs increased but now have significantly reduced due to demands from Middle East along with Germany (which is in the process of upgrading their entire fleet along with capability to fire US made Nuclear Arsenal).
> 
> PAF would have F-16 & JF-17 available for dedicated ground strike roles with EFT's giving them Top Cover.
> 
> Remember the initial offer by BAE Systems to India for 126 aircraft was for $7 Billion which included a new production facility. This comes down to $55.5 million. These were Tranche 2 aircraft that did not include AESA radars.
> 
> The issue of USA embargoing sales by European Union once signed prior would never be accepted by the European Parliament or European Court of Justice.
> 
> You already have seen this in case of Iran.
> 
> 
> The German Parliament can not enforce a trade embargo on deas already in effect as European Court of Justice would never tolerate retrospective effect. This can be seen with the case of Iran
> 
> 
> Its not just money. There are other factors too.
> 
> 
> Sir,
> With due respect I would like to ask why PAF is once again going to repeat its mistakes. If PAF purchases J-10's then it will one again have a single source once F-16's are embargoed. China though a strategic partner / all weather friend / brother what ever one may call it can also act against in the time of need by saying not this time sorry.
> 
> Light weight 5th Gen PLAAF does not need nor dose PLAAN. They have already showcased J-31 as a light weight 5th Generation aircraft for export. Unfortunately no one is willing to purchase it.
> 
> The only way possible For PAF to procure 5th Gen aircraft is through Turkey provided TFX wishes to provide the single engine design and technical knowledge.


Hi I’m talking in terms of EF been supplied to KSA through uk as I have read somewhere on this forum coz of Germany we can get hold of EF as my understanding is all the consortium countries are free to make deal at their own will to sell these planes and the remaining countries whosoever is bound to supply the concerned parts and other stuff
Any info on this and thanks for your earlier reply
Thank you

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## ghazi52

The air chief witnessed the aerial display of "Pride of Pakistan" JF-17 Thunder aircraft

Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan on Tuesday was in attendance for the opening ceremony of China’s Zhuhai Air Show in which “Pride of Pakistan” JF-17 Thunder aircraft also took part.


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Readerdefence said:


> Hi I’m talking in terms of EF been supplied to KSA through uk as I have read somewhere on this forum coz of Germany we can get hold of EF as my understanding is all the consortium countries are free to make deal at their own will to sell these planes and the remaining countries whosoever is bound to supply the concerned parts and other stuff
> Any info on this and thanks for your earlier reply
> Thank you


Hi, 
Here is what was able publicly in regards to the Eurofighter Typhoon. Britain wanted a new fighter that was second to none as USSR had showcased not just one but two highly capable fighter aircraft i.e Mig 29 and Su-27. What was offered by the USA was F-16's which were considered to be insufficient. 

Hence Britain contacted her partners Italy & Germany which produced Tornado & France which produced the Jaguar. 

As KSA was an operator of the Tornado hence had clearances from Germany. The problem with Germany and Sweden in regards to supply of weapons is that they can only sell to those countries that will uses them for defensive purposes and not for offensive. This is really confusing to understand as most of the weapons are offensive in nature. 

*In simpler term those countries that perform preemptive strikes are not allowed right of sale. This is because they did not defend themselves from an attack but became the aggressors. 
*
Till the War with ISIS and Yemen KSA was never involved directly in any conflict hence Germany did grant licencesses for the export of EFT and other stuff. 
*
The question that comes to mind is why is the licence important from Germany?*
Answer 
EFT is not made completely by any of the partner countries but in parts which are then exported to England where they are finally assembled. This is the reason non of the partner nations have the technical knowledge or the expertise to make an entire EFT.
That parts that are manufactured in Germany need to comply the licence requirements before they can be approved for any sale.

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## fatman17

. The Block II variant is expected to be followed by the much improved Block III, which might feature a more powerful engine (WS-13E or RD-33K? 9,000kg class), a new AESA radar developed by NETRI/14th Institute (KLJ-7A, range 170km, track 15, engage 4) or by the 607 Institute (LKF601E, air cooled), IRST, HMD, full authority digital FBW and additional types of weapons. The assembling of the first three *JF-17* Block IIs (S/N 15-2xx) started at PAC in mid-2014. First flight of 15-201 took place on February 9, 2015. A total of 50 were built by the end of 2017. It is expected that all the Block I/II *JF-17*s will be upgraded with the KLJ-7A AESA radar.

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## Maxpane

Great news


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## fatman17

*ZDK-03* is serving as the airborne command & control center for the *JF-17* fighter fleet currently in service with PAF. However it does not have the secure NATO datalink installed to effectively command western fighter aircraft such as American F-16. Therefore *ZDK-03* operates together with Saab-2000 in a "high-low" combination in order to coordinate various Chinese and western made combat aircraft effectively. The latest news (November 2018) indicated that a new variant (KLC-7/_Silk Road Eye_) featuring a mechanically rotating AESA radar is being developed._- Last Updated 11/7/18_


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## Maxpane

fatman17 said:


> *ZDK-03* is serving as the airborne command & control center for the *JF-17* fighter fleet currently in service with PAF. However it does not have the secure NATO datalink installed to effectively command western fighter aircraft such as American F-16. Therefore *ZDK-03* operates together with Saab-2000 in a "high-low" combination in order to coordinate various Chinese and western made combat aircraft effectively. The latest news (November 2018) indicated that a new variant (KLC-7/_Silk Road Eye_) featuring a mechanically rotating AESA radar is being developed._- Last Updated 11/7/18_
> View attachment 516610


Sir now we can use it for all jets ? Just explain for layman like me thanks


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## fatman17

Air Platforms
*Airshow China 2018: Wing Loong II armed reconnaissance UAV enters PLAAF service*
*Kelvin Wong, Zhuhai* - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
08 November 2018





The PLAAF has inducted the Gongji-2 MALE UAV for armed reconnaissance missions. Source: IHS Markit/Kelvin Wong
The People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) revealed at the Airshow China 2018 exhibition on 6-11 November in Zhuhai, Guangdong Province, that it has acquired the Aviation Industry Corporation of China's (AVIC's) armed reconnaissance Wing Loong II medium-altitude, long-endurance unmanned aerial vehicle (MALE UAV), which is known in PLAAF service as the Gongji-2 ('Attack 2' or GJ-2).

PLAAF officials declined to provide details about the specific configuration and capabilities of the displayed GJ-2 - which bears the serial number 53130 - or the number and distribution of the type, saying only that it offers significantly longer range, endurance, and payload capacity than the previous GJ-1. They would also not disclose if the GJ-1 will eventually be phased out in favour of the newer and more capable air vehicles.

First unveiled at Airshow China 2016, the baseline Wing Loong II is developed and manufactured by Chengdu Aircraft Corporation (CAC): an AVIC subsidiary that is also responsible for building the PLAAF's J-20 next-generation multirole fighter. The UAV was first marketed in company literature at Airshow China 2015, although it was not until the 2016 exhibition that CAC debuted a "production-ready" version of the air vehicle along with an array of compatible UAV-launched weapons.

The Wing Loong II bears a strong resemblance to General Atomics Aeronautical Systems' MQ-9 Reaper UAV as it features a low-wing monoplane slender fuselage and empennage with lifting surfaces that terminate in winglets, as well as a prominent V-tail and ventral fin. Like its US-made counterpart, each wing can incorporate up to three hardpoints for external stores.

However, the in-service GJ-2 shown at the PLAAF's static display appears to be different from the baseline air vehicle as it does not feature winglets and it was shown equipped with only two hardpoints under each wing.



Maxpane said:


> Sir now we can use it for all jets ? Just explain for layman like me thanks



a link has been developed to do that. modified and improved.

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## Maxpane

fatman17 said:


> Air Platforms
> *Airshow China 2018: Wing Loong II armed reconnaissance UAV enters PLAAF service*
> *Kelvin Wong, Zhuhai* - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
> 08 November 2018
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The PLAAF has inducted the Gongji-2 MALE UAV for armed reconnaissance missions. Source: IHS Markit/Kelvin Wong
> The People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) revealed at the Airshow China 2018 exhibition on 6-11 November in Zhuhai, Guangdong Province, that it has acquired the Aviation Industry Corporation of China's (AVIC's) armed reconnaissance Wing Loong II medium-altitude, long-endurance unmanned aerial vehicle (MALE UAV), which is known in PLAAF service as the Gongji-2 ('Attack 2' or GJ-2).
> 
> PLAAF officials declined to provide details about the specific configuration and capabilities of the displayed GJ-2 - which bears the serial number 53130 - or the number and distribution of the type, saying only that it offers significantly longer range, endurance, and payload capacity than the previous GJ-1. They would also not disclose if the GJ-1 will eventually be phased out in favour of the newer and more capable air vehicles.
> 
> First unveiled at Airshow China 2016, the baseline Wing Loong II is developed and manufactured by Chengdu Aircraft Corporation (CAC): an AVIC subsidiary that is also responsible for building the PLAAF's J-20 next-generation multirole fighter. The UAV was first marketed in company literature at Airshow China 2015, although it was not until the 2016 exhibition that CAC debuted a "production-ready" version of the air vehicle along with an array of compatible UAV-launched weapons.
> 
> The Wing Loong II bears a strong resemblance to General Atomics Aeronautical Systems' MQ-9 Reaper UAV as it features a low-wing monoplane slender fuselage and empennage with lifting surfaces that terminate in winglets, as well as a prominent V-tail and ventral fin. Like its US-made counterpart, each wing can incorporate up to three hardpoints for external stores.
> 
> However, the in-service GJ-2 shown at the PLAAF's static display appears to be different from the baseline air vehicle as it does not feature winglets and it was shown equipped with only two hardpoints under each wing.
> 
> 
> 
> a link has been developed to do that. modified and improved.


Thank you sir


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## Maxpane




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## SQ8

Maxpane said:


> View attachment 516816


Armband exchanges are common among allied militaries.

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## Maxpane

Oscar said:


> Armband exchanges are common among allied militaries
> Yes sir got it


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## Cuirassier

Block 2 Thunders with AESA, will free the Vipers from the huge stress of being the sole high end fighter.


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Readerdefence said:


> Hi I’m talking in terms of EF been supplied to KSA through uk as I have read somewhere on this forum coz of Germany we can get hold of EF as my understanding is all the consortium countries are free to make deal at their own will to sell these planes and the remaining countries whosoever is bound to supply the concerned parts and other stuff
> Any info on this and thanks for your earlier reply
> Thank you


Take a look at this link:
https://www.dw.com/en/chancellor-an...el-macron-clash-over-saudi-weapons/a-46059978

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## BHarwana

PAF C-130 has just made an emergency landing at Nur-kahn Air base. All crew survived and plane took minor damages and caught fire due to landing with out landing gear.

Great job done by PAF in landing the air craft successfully.

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## S-A-B-E-R->

Has any one seen this?...Or JF17 Is in Hollywood ...the series is not so kind towards Pakistan but jf 17 is there.


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## Trailer23

*What B.S...*


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## Akasa

Unconfirmed yet, but if true, then it seems that the *J-10C* is now available for export. PAF may have an option to counter the IAF's Rafales, the first of which made its maiden flight in October.

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## GumNaam

S-A-B-E-R-> said:


> Has any one seen this?...Or JF17 Is in Hollywood ...the series is not so kind towards Pakistan but jf 17 is there.


hey, it caught their attention...and being a hollywood series, OF COURSE the F-18 would win...

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## Kompromat

Nope. 



Akasa said:


> Unconfirmed yet, but if true, then it seems that the *J-10C* is now available for export. PAF may have an option to counter the IAF's Rafales, the first of which made its maiden flight in October.
> 
> View attachment 517441


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## Akasa

Horus said:


> Nope.



What is "nope" supposed to mean here?


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## LKJ86

Horus said:


> Nope.


J-10CE, E stands for "Export".

Just like PL-10E, HQ-16BE, JH-7E, and so on.


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## Kompromat

I meant that this aircraft is too late for Pakistan. We're already discussing a strategic replacement of F-16 under project azm. 



LKJ86 said:


> J-10CE, E stands for "Export".
> 
> Just like PL-10E, HQ-16BE, JH-7E, and so on.

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## LKJ86

Horus said:


> I meant that this aircraft is too late for Pakistan. We're already discussing a strategic replacement of F-16 under project azm.


Doesn't PAF consider a 4.5th-generation fighter like Su-35?
Besides, I don't think PAF will buy J-10CE, but it will be a good choice to other countries.


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## GumNaam

LKJ86 said:


> Doesn't PAF consider a 4.5th-generation fighter like Su-35?
> Besides, I don't think PAF will buy J-10CE, but it will be a good choice to other countries.


I think the PAF has its mind made up to strengthen manufacturing their own aircrafts than purchasing...hence the concentration on the JF-17 and the AZM projects.


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## Kompromat

We'll build a 5th gen aircraft with CAC. Those F-16s are 30 years old. They will need to be replaced eventually. 



LKJ86 said:


> Doesn't PAF consider a 4.5th-generation fighter like Su-35?
> Besides, I don't think PAF will buy J-10CE, but it will be a good choice to other countries.

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## Beethoven

Horus said:


> We'll build a 5th gen aircraft with CAC. Those F-16s are 30 years old. They will need to be replaced eventually.


What about FC-31???? does PAF have any plans for them????


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## GumNaam

Beethoven said:


> What about FC-31???? does PAF have any plans for them????


man you know the PAF...every thing is hush hush. so its anybody's guess...

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## Trailer23

GumNaam said:


> man you know the PAF...every thing is hush hush. so its anybody's guess...


Well according to Russian News Agency (*TACC*)..., reported that the cost of the promising *J-31/FC-31* for export would be about *$ 70 Million*.







Source: https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/5770578


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## Maxpane

Trailer23 said:


> Well according to Russian News Agency (*TACC*)..., reported that the cost of the promising *J-31/FC-31* for export would be about *$ 70 Million*.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Source: https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/5770578


Price of f 16?sir


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## Trailer23

Maxpane said:


> Price of f 16?sir


Good question.

Well it all depends on a number of factors which a lot of Senior Members may be able to shed light on.

Basically, depends on if you're seeking to buy the aircraft in flyaway conditions (without spares, weapons etc). There is also the type of engine you want to go for (_Pratt & Whitney_ or _GE_).

If you've followed the _Rafale_ row/scandal that is currently brewing up in _India_ - you'd have better understanding and far clearer picture.

But my guess is it would cost somewhere around *(USD) $ 80 Million* - and is for the upcoming _Block 70/72_ (Super Viper) which is currently on order by both _Bahrain_ and _Slovakia_.


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## Maxpane

T


Trailer23 said:


> Good question.
> 
> Well it all depends on a number of factors which a lot of Senior Members may be able to shed light on.
> 
> Basically, depends on if you're seeking to buy the aircraft in flyaway conditions (without spares, weapons etc). There is also the type of engine you want to go for (_Pratt & Whitney_ or _GE_).
> 
> If you've followed the _Rafale_ row/scandal that is currently brewing up in _India_ - you'd have better understanding and far clearer picture.
> 
> But my guess is it would cost somewhere around *(USD) $ 80 Million* - and is for the upcoming _Block 70/72_ (Super Viper) which is currently on order by both _Bahrain_ and _Slovakia_.


Thqnk you sir


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## khanasifm

Akasa said:


> Unconfirmed yet, but if true, then it seems that the *J-10C* is now available for export. PAF may have an option to counter the IAF's Rafales, the first of which made its maiden flight in October.
> 
> View attachment 517441



Is this j10 has 4 under wing pylon points or same 3 with dual launcher for sd-10

With wing span of 9.8 m its same as f-16

Surprised no English or other language just Chinese


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## Trailer23

Another one by Wajahat Saeed Khan released a few hours back.


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## fatman17

*Asia-Pacific*
The Chinese People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) seems to have an updated version



of its J-10 fighter aircraft. The J-10 Thrust Vectoring Control, or TVC, is equipped with a hinged thrust-vectoring nozzle that allows it to control the direction of its exhaust. This capability gives it improved maneuverability and low-speed handling. The J-10 TVC



is the only Chinese aircraft that uses this technology. Internationally TVC is found on Russian Su-35s and the US F-22 Raptor. The J-10



is a lightweight, single-engine, multi-role fighter developed by Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation (CAC) and 611 Institute for the People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF). The high-performance J-10 aircraft has been designed as an air superiority fighter with air-to-surface capability and is powered by China’s domestically-produced WS-10B3 turbofan engine. Experts have noted that Chinese development of a reliable domestic jet engine would also be a major step in shoring up what some observers see as the long-term political risk of an over-reliance on Russian military hardware.


----------



## Muhammad Omar

2 Qatar Airforce C-17 Globemaster at New Islamabad International Airport 

Wonder why are they here and that to on New Islamabad airport rather then Nur Khan Airbase


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## Tps43

Muhammad Omar said:


> 2 Qatar Airforce C-17 Globemaster at New Islamabad International Airport
> 
> Wonder why are they here and that to on New Islamabad airport rather then Nur Khan Airbase
> 
> View attachment 518799


Qatari armed forces cheif of staff was in Pakistan today for offical visit

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## Avicenna

I wouldn’t be surprised if PAF is holding out hope for a change in the political winds at some point in the future where access to used F-16s will be granted given the enormous potential supply. (With a Block 72-like upgrade)

This perhaps may factor in to a lack of interest in obtaining J-10.

I think history may prove this to be a mistake.

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## Muhammad Omar

tps77 said:


> Qatari armed forces cheif of staff was in Pakistan today for offical visit


Thanks

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## Trailer23

tps77 said:


> Qatari armed forces cheif of staff was in Pakistan today for offical visit


...and he needed 02 C-17 Globemaster III for a visit.

That's quite an entourage. Just one of those beasts is big enough to house a small Army.

I recall in my early years of flying when I used to see them practically everyday for the USAF in Bagram and Kandahar & some military Bases in Iraq.

Those P&W engines used to be so powerful that we had to close the FWD Door of our B737's just to avoid the pure thrust of those engines before taxi.

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## M16174

Muhammad Omar said:


> 2 Qatar Airforce C-17 Globemaster at New Islamabad International Airport
> 
> Wonder why are they here and that to on New Islamabad airport rather then Nur Khan Airbase
> 
> View attachment 518799




I think PAF is holding something really secret. New Islamabad airport got construction right near the Nur khan base. Nur khan base was a joint civil and military airport. A long history of US aircrafts landing at Nur khan base with a reason of landing at Islamabad.

But now u see more longer runways, better bigger airport (i mean new Isl airport ), so US or other countries might not interrupt in Pak military affairs, like they used to at Nur Khan base)


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## Chimgathar




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## Trailer23

M16174 said:


> I think PAF is holding something really secret. New Islamabad airport got construction right near the Nur khan base. Nur khan base was a joint civil and military airport. A long history of US aircrafts landing at Nur khan base with a reason of landing at Islamabad.
> 
> But now u see more longer runways, better bigger airport (i mean new Isl airport ), so US or other countries might not interrupt in Pak military affairs, like they used to at Nur Khan base)


Not much of a secret when you have 02 of those beasts in town that can easily be detected by the likes of the NSA or something like flightradar24.

Commonly secret meetings require something small like a Gulfstream, LearJet, Citation etc.


----------



## Tps43

Trailer23 said:


> ...and he needed 02 C-17 Globemaster III for a visit.
> 
> That's quite an entourage. Just one of those beasts is big enough to house a small Army.
> 
> I recall in my early years of flying when I used to see them practically everyday for the USAF in Bagram and Kandahar & some military Bases in Iraq.
> 
> Those P&W engines used to be so powerful that we had to close the FWD Door of our B737's just to avoid the pure thrust of those engines before taxi.


Yes bcuz he was from air force and u know arabs they even bring there cars in it.

It was just a visit nothing more.



M16174 said:


> I think PAF is holding something really secret. New Islamabad airport got construction right near the Nur khan base. Nur khan base was a joint civil and military airport. A long history of US aircrafts landing at Nur khan base with a reason of landing at Islamabad.
> 
> But now u see more longer runways, better bigger airport (i mean new Isl airport ), so US or other countries might not interrupt in Pak military affairs, like they used to at Nur Khan base)


Bro It was just a visit nothing else


----------



## Windjammer

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1061227954636836864

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## Dazzler

Windjammer said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1061227954636836864



Who would mind such adoration?

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## Windjammer

Dazzler said:


> Who would mind such adoration?


As long as their own wives are happy about it.

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## Windjammer



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## ghazi52

First President of Pakistan Iskander Mirza in PAF Risalpur academy at the passing out parade of his son Enver Mirza in 1950's..

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## litman

ghazi52 said:


> First President of Pakistan Iskander Mirza in PAF Risalpur academy at the passing out parade of his son Enver Mirza in 1950's..


doesnt seem to be risalpur. the hills in the background appear very close to the parade ground. cherat hills are not that much close to risalpur.


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## TOPGUN

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 519452
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 519453



Now I like that patch


----------



## Hassan Guy

Windjammer said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1061227954636836864


i think i should look into joining the PAF now


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## fatman17

C4iSR: Air

KLJ-7A AESA radar being considered for China’s J-20 fighter aircraft

Reuben F Johnson, Kiev - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

16 November 2018

The Nanjing Research Institute of Electronics Technology’s (NRIET’s) KLJ-7A active electronically scanned-array (AESA) radar is being considered for use with China’s J-20 multirole ‘fifth-generation’ fighter aircraft, a Chinese industry source has told Jane’s .

The radar, a mock-up of which was displayed by NRIET in a three-array configuration at the Airshow China 2018 on 6–11 November, is one of the options being evaluated for use on the platform, said the source, without providing further details.

The KLJ-7A is an advanced variant of the KLJ-7 (also referred to as Type 1478) X-band airborne fire-control radar (FCR) that has previously been presented in a number of different configurations.


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## Arsalan

fatman17 said:


> C4iSR: Air
> 
> KLJ-7A AESA radar being considered for China’s J-20 fighter aircraft
> 
> Reuben F Johnson, Kiev - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
> 
> 16 November 2018
> 
> The Nanjing Research Institute of Electronics Technology’s (NRIET’s) KLJ-7A active electronically scanned-array (AESA) radar is being considered for use with China’s J-20 multirole ‘fifth-generation’ fighter aircraft, a Chinese industry source has told Jane’s .
> 
> The radar, a mock-up of which was displayed by NRIET in a three-array configuration at the Airshow China 2018 on 6–11 November, is one of the options being evaluated for use on the platform, said the source, without providing further details.
> 
> The KLJ-7A is an advanced variant of the KLJ-7 (also referred to as Type 1478) X-band airborne fire-control radar (FCR) that has previously been presented in a number of different configurations.


What? Isnt it the same that was considered for JF-17 sir? I know it was!! 
Same radar on the fight generation J-20? i doubt that.


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## LKJ86

Arsalan said:


> What? Isnt it the same that was considered for JF-17 sir? I know it was!!
> Same radar on the fight generation J-20? i doubt that.


It is the three-array KLJ-7A AESA radar with more T/R modules.

J-20 has a bigger nose than JF-17.

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## Hassan Al-Somal

GumNaam said:


> I think the PAF has its mind made up to strengthen manufacturing their own aircrafts than purchasing...hence the concentration on the JF-17 and the AZM projects.



A wise move! In the event of war, coupled with the current computerized technology, these toys can be disabled remotely. Iraq learned the hard way in 2003, where according to some reports, some of the long-range SAMs failed to work before Baghdad has fallen. So for a country like Pakistan who is under constant threats and accusations, developing its own fighter jets is the best forward, plus maintaining close relations with China.

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## BHarwana

Which cruise missiles are these in the grey color?


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## Maxpane

Small klj 7 a for jf 17 and big one for j 20?


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## fatman17

Lot of PAF activity over karachi last 2-3 days. is Seaspark 18 exercise still continuing?


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## CriticalThought

fatman17 said:


> Lot of PAF activity over karachi last 2-3 days. is Seaspark 18 exercise still continuing?



Probably preparation for IDEAS 2018 display. Insha Allah, it's going to be a tri-services act.


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## BHarwana

Today is the third death anniversary of Shaheed Mariam Mukhtar.







Please offer fatiah and prayers for her.

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## Amigator




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## M16174

Besides air activity over Islamabad yesterday night, 
i just heard roar of fighter (high altitude, speedy movement) right now, think jf17 or f16 over LAHORE (New Lahore),
at 0808 hours, Something going on, what we aren't aware of.


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## TsAr

M16174 said:


> Besides air activity over Islamabad yesterday night,
> i just heard roar of fighter (high altitude, speedy movement) right now, think jf17 or f16 over LAHORE (New Lahore),
> at 0808 hours, Something going on, what we aren't aware of.


Heard the same thing last night from a friend who resides in Muzafarabad. He also reported unusual air activity.


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## fatman17

Popped into the IDEAS exhibition area this afternoon. To sort a few things out before the event starts tomorrow. The 2 Sqn ‘Minhasians’ JF-17 was looking good as I left. https://t.co/HxFDK07cgQ


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## ghazi52

.*Kala Chappra *

1930s: Airship mooring mast and hangar - Karachi

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## S-A-B-E-R->

BHarwana said:


> Which cruise missiles are these in the grey color?
> 
> View attachment 521346


I believe these are glide bombs, not Cruse missiles.

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## BHarwana

S-A-B-E-R-> said:


> I believe these are glide bombs, not Cruse missiles.



There is no laser guided seeker in front and a bit too big and well designed for guide bombs. They are some type of cruise missiles I cannot find them in any category. But the bombs are part of JF-17 munition.

Jf-17 glide bombs have kits made in Pakistan. They are different. First thought they were som cruise missile but then som is different. So a bit confused on them.

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## fatman17

Had a very good briefing on the PAF’s Vision air defence system. It has merged air and ground radars from USA, Europe and China into one Recognised Air and Maritime Picture (RAMP). Includes Chinese CETC ZDK-03 and Sweden’s Saab Erieye datalink feeds into one RAP.

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## CriticalThought

fatman17 said:


> Had a very good briefing on the PAF’s Vision air defence system. It has merged air and ground radars from USA, Europe and China into one Recognised Air and Maritime Picture (RAMP). Includes Chinese CETC ZDK-03 and Sweden’s Saab Erieye datalink feeds into one RAP.



Is there a video available?


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## S-A-B-E-R->

BHarwana said:


> There is no laser guided seeker in front and a bit too big and well designed for guide bombs. They are some type of cruise missiles I cannot find them in any category. But the bombs are part of JF-17 munition.
> 
> Jf-17 glide bombs have kits made in Pakistan. They are different. First thought they were som cruise missile but then som is different. So a bit confused on them.


Glide bombs r generally GPS guided so no need for laser seekers... I am also guessing because there is no visible propulsion system visible underneath for it to be a cruise missile...


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## fatman17

Looks like Iranian Air Chief ☫ couldn't hold himself during #IDEAS2018 & leaked the news of Persian Jf17 with one of my friend.
Well, Iran is looking for replacing its outdated fleet of F5, Mig21, Mig29, F14 from Jf17 and they are aimed at placing largest export order of jf17. https://t.co/IUxdBeAXI1

Makes sense

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## fatman17

Was told by @LeonardoDefence that no one is allowed to talk to media. Even though they have sold AW139s to Army and more recently Air Force. And they are still trying to sell M346 to PAF as a potential LIFT. I bet that wouldn’t happen at Bangalore...


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## gambit

S-A-B-E-R-> said:


> *Glide bombs r generally GPS guided so no need for laser seekers*... I am also guessing because there is no visible propulsion system visible underneath for it to be a cruise missile...


A glide bomb is for distance, so GPS assist is pretty much necessary. However...

https://www.raytheon.com/capabilities/products/stormbreaker


> The seeker works in three modes to provide maximum operational flexibility: millimeter wave radar to detect and track targets through weather, imaging infrared for enhanced target discrimination and semi-active laser that enables the weapon to track an airborne laser designator or one on the ground.


The Stormbreaker, used to be called Small Diameter Bomb (SDB), is a glide bomb with sensors.

GPS guidance does not provide immediate area information such as weather, target (re)location, and even battle related obscurants like smoke.

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/6-71/Ch1.htm


> *Battlefield obscuration* can be provided by artillery, mortars, smoke pots, rockets, hexachloroethane (HC) (smoke) grenades, and large area smoke generators. It is an aid in deceiving the enemy, concealing maneuver, and increasing your potential force ratios.


GPS give geo-coords guidance. Active sensors provides real time targeting information. The more precise the bomb, the smaller it can be, and the more payload per sortie.

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## fatman17

I was surprised to hear that one of the JF-17 prototypes PT-4 is now back in Pakistan. It’s near the end of its useful life so hopefully will be preserved. Maybe at the excellent PAF Museum at Faisal. Just down the road from here.

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## SQ8

fatman17 said:


> I was surprised to hear that one of the JF-17 prototypes PT-4 is now back in Pakistan. It’s near the end of its useful life so hopefully will be preserved. Maybe at the excellent PAF Museum at Faisal. Just down the road from here.


Could you link Alan’s tweet too, it would help give context to the post.

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## Windjammer

Oscar said:


> Could you link Alan’s tweet too, it would help give context to the post.




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1067427153900273665

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## fatman17

I asked the Nigerian Air Force Commander today if he was still going to acquire the JF-17 Thunder. His response was “we are still planning to buy it.”


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## Maxpane

fatman17 said:


> I asked the Nigerian Air Force Commander today if he was still going to acquire the JF-17 Thunder. His response was “we are still planning to buy it.”


Sir is it means negotiation?


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## fatman17

Air Cdre Habib also said that Block 3 JF-17s would be operational in 2021. I was told production of the Block 3s would commenced towards the end of next year. By then a decision on the radar will have been made.


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## fatman17

Maxpane said:


> Sir is it means negotiation?


Delivery next year. What needs to be finalised is the number of aircraft. Monies already budgeted.


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## Falcon26

fatman17 said:


> Air Cdre Habib also said that Block 3 JF-17s would be operational in 2021. I was told production of the Block 3s would commenced towards the end of next year. By then a decision on the radar will have been made.



When you copy and paste other people’s tweets, make sure you give due credit. You are a senior member, you should know this.

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## Maxpane

fatman17 said:


> Delivery next year. What needs to be finalised is the number of aircraft. Monies already budgeted.


Thank you sir


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## khanasifm

Where is the chief 2 page interview from by Alan ??

Alan Warnes
Alan Warnes
@warnesyworld
·
Nov 26
GIDS did dummy run on the launch of their new Burraq UAV tomorrow when I hope to find out more. I’ll be working on the ⁦@AsianMilitaryReview Show Daily. There will be several Pak mil stories in there over coming days. Tomorrow’s issue includes 2 page interview with PAF CAS.

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## Incog_nito

Is PAF still looking to buy L-139?


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## ghazi52

`Pakistan Air force 1951`

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## Trailer23

A matter of interpretation...

I was watching *DG ISPR Major General Asif Ghafoor* complete Press Conference (6th Dec) and the most interesting question raised (by a Reporter) came at the end. Infact, it was the last question.

Check time code *52:38*






Now, it may just be smokescreen, but _Zalmay Khalilzad_ (US diplomat and the Special Representative for Afghanistan Reconciliation) may have had a positive note on his recent visit to Islamabad.

After nearly 02 Years in Office, _Donald Trump_ appears to be softening up on Foreign Relations. Case in point: Trade Relations neighbors (_Canada_ & _Mexico_) and more importantly _China_. He also said that he wanted the F-35 transfer to _Turkey_ move smoothly.

This might be the best time (for _Pakistan_) to strike a deal. We may not get all the funds they owe us, but getting goodies is just as good.


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## Windjammer



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## jupiter2007

Pakistan 5th generation fighter (photoshop)

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## Ahmet Pasha

Is it released by PAC or fanmade??


jupiter2007 said:


> Pakistan 5th generation fighter (photoshop)
> View attachment 525481


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## Maxpane

I think fan made


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## hassan1




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## fatman17

Falcon26 said:


> When you copy and paste other people’s tweets, make sure you give due credit. You are a senior member, you should know this.


My bad Sir


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## fatman17

During #IDEAS2018 Pakistan’s Ministry of Defence Production (MoDP) and Ukraine’s UkrOboronProm agreed to explore opportunities for defence collaboration on land, naval/sea and aerial applications.
Ukrainian An70 (An188) can become credible option for replacing [emoji1191] aging C130 fleet https://t.co/TKxhZiacj0

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## hassan1



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## Nasr

Are those Tempests or Furies? I can never tell which is which. Records show that Pakistan Air Force operated both Tempest and Fury, separately or at the same time.

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## fatman17

Dubai 2013

December 12/18: Iran & Malaysia show interest An article by Defense World suggests that Iranian and Malaysian military officials may buy Pakistan’s JF-17 Thunder. Some talks were held on the sidelines of the IDEAS 2018 aerospace exhibition, which took place in Karachi late last month. The exhibition was attended by Iranian Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC) General Qasem Soleiman and Malaysian Royal Air Force Chief General Dato’ Affendi. The JF-17 is a Pakistani fighter jet with Chinese parts. The Thunder is a single engine, lightweight, multipurpose combat aircraft that can host modern electronics and precision-guided weapons. It costs $20 million per unit. Malaysia first voiced interest buying the jet in April 2018 during the Defence Services Asia (DSA) expo held in Kuala Lumpur.


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## Path-Finder

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1068065226690572288


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## Maxpane

Sir plz translate it


Path-Finder said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1068065226690572288


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## Path-Finder

Maxpane said:


> Sir plz translate it



I think its about working with Pakistan aviation.


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Maxpane said:


> Sir plz translate it


Ukroboronprom agrees to repair and modernize aviation Pakistan -


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## Maxpane

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Ukroboronprom agrees to repair and modernize aviation Pakistan -


Sir which jet ?



Path-Finder said:


> I think its about working with Pakistan aviation.


Sir in aviation which sector? Or which jet ?


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## Imran Khan

Maxpane said:


> Sir which jet ?


the one we buy from them bro il-78


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## Maxpane

Path-Finder said:


> I think its about working with Pakistan aviation.


Sir in aviation which sector? Or which jet ?

Ok . Thank you sir


Imran Khan said:


> the one we buy from them bro il-78


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Maxpane said:


> Sir which jet ?
> 
> 
> Sir in aviation which sector? Or which jet ?


It does not mention any details only this is what it stated..

There could be Engines for IL78 and its associated products also heavy maintenance of IL 78. 

OR

It could also be taken this news is for some other projects that might interest PAC in the future.


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## Maxpane

Thank you sir


ACE OF THE AIR said:


> It does not mention any details only this is what it stated..
> 
> There could be Engines for IL78 and its associated products also heavy maintenance of IL 78.
> 
> OR
> 
> It could also be taken this news is for some other projects that might interest PAC in the future.


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## Path-Finder

Maxpane said:


> Sir in aviation which sector? Or which jet ?
> 
> Ok . Thank you sir


There is a link to an article that you can read using translation tools from the internet.


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Path-Finder said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1068065226690572288


Translated article..
*UKROBORONPROM AGREES ON THE REPAIR AND MODERNIZATION OF PAKISTAN'S AVIATION*
11/29/2018





Within the framework of the International Defense Exhibition IDEAS-2018, negotiations were held with representatives of the Ukroboronprom Defense Company with the Air Force Commander, Pakistan's chief airspace marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan.

The parties expressed their appreciation for the bilateral aviation relations. Agreements were reached on the analysis and monitoring of all existing bilateral agreements. This result will be the basis of the roadmap for further deeper bilateral relations.

Mujahid Anwar Khan stressed that his country was interested in maximizing cooperation with Ukraine in the field of aviation. Among the promising projects that can be implemented in the near future, he called the services of enterprises "Ukroboronprom" for major repairs of transport aircraft, which in time put Ukraine. Also, it is about providing services for the training of Pakistani specialists who have already arrived in Ukraine, for the repair of certain units. It was noted that Pakistan was keenly interested in repair and modernization of helicopters that are being used by Pakistan Air Force. The parties identified a series of steps to optimize logistics policy in their relations.

The Ukrainian delegation stressed that it was ready to provide the partner with the widest range of aircraft repair services.

The International Defense Exhibition IDEAS-2018 is held in Karachi (Islamic Republic of Pakistan) from 27 to 30 November. The forum takes place once in two years, and is one of the largest in the South Asian region, which today offers significant prospects for Ukraine in the field of development of military-technical cooperation.


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## Path-Finder

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Translated article..
> *UKROBORONPROM AGREES ON THE REPAIR AND MODERNIZATION OF PAKISTAN'S AVIATION*
> 11/29/2018
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Within the framework of the International Defense Exhibition IDEAS-2018, negotiations were held with representatives of the Ukroboronprom Defense Company with the Air Force Commander, Pakistan's chief airspace marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan.
> 
> The parties expressed their appreciation for the bilateral aviation relations. Agreements were reached on the analysis and monitoring of all existing bilateral agreements. This result will be the basis of the roadmap for further deeper bilateral relations.
> 
> Mujahid Anwar Khan stressed that his country was interested in maximizing cooperation with Ukraine in the field of aviation. Among the promising projects that can be implemented in the near future, he called the services of enterprises "Ukroboronprom" for major repairs of transport aircraft, which in time put Ukraine. Also, it is about providing services for the training of Pakistani specialists who have already arrived in Ukraine, for the repair of certain units. It was noted that Pakistan was keenly interested in repair and modernization of helicopters that are being used by Pakistan Air Force. The parties identified a series of steps to optimize logistics policy in their relations.
> 
> The Ukrainian delegation stressed that it was ready to provide the partner with the widest range of aircraft repair services.
> 
> The International Defense Exhibition IDEAS-2018 is held in Karachi (Islamic Republic of Pakistan) from 27 to 30 November. The forum takes place once in two years, and is one of the largest in the South Asian region, which today offers significant prospects for Ukraine in the field of development of military-technical cooperation.



it would be better to make a consortium and develop turbofan engines with friendly countries.


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## Tps43

Path-Finder said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1068065226690572288


Air Cheif watching Geo Really????

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## mingle

Ukraine is making turbo prop transport planes can be replacement of C130s


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## Maxpane

Can they collaborate in jet engine making?


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## fatman17

Myanmar induct the JF17/FC1.

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## fatman17

Today, the Myanmar Air Force inaugurated the JF-17M Thunder fighters. Also newly introduced were a medium transport aircraft and helicopters.

Via Kyaw Zaw (FB) https://t.co/mB9ZxkPFAp

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## Maxpane

Greattttt


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## Dreamer.

fatman17 said:


> Myanmar induct the JF17/FC1.
> View attachment 526706
> View attachment 526707





fatman17 said:


> Today, the Myanmar Air Force inaugurated the JF-17M Thunder fighters. Also newly introduced were a medium transport aircraft and helicopters.
> 
> Via Kyaw Zaw (FB) https://t.co/mB9ZxkPFAp
> View attachment 526709



Does this really belong in thread for PAF news?? What another airforce is doing??

There's plenty of JF-17 threads..... use one of them.

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## ghazi52




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## jupiter2007

jupiter2007 said:


> Pakistan 5th generation fighter (photoshop)
> View attachment 525481



Japanese fighter with one engine.


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## fatman17

Dreamer. said:


> Does this really belong in thread for PAF news?? What another airforce is doing??
> 
> There's plenty of JF-17 threads..... use one of them.


Aye, aye capt

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## Nasr

Ukraine is not the sort of country Pakistan Air Force should be looking to going into business with, at this particular time.

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## SSGcommandoPAK

I made a rough video about all the thunder info I absorbed from this forum. I didn't use any script so correct me If you find any errors.


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## Dazzler

Malaysian air chief is at PAC,,,

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## Maxpane

Hope we can see good news after visit


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## syed_yusuf

SSGcommandoPAK said:


> I made a rough video about all the thunder info I absorbed from this forum. I didn't use any script so correct me If you find any errors.


good job

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## fatman17

Air Platforms

Myanmar shows off Thunder fighters

Gareth Jennings, London - Jane's Defence Weekly

17 December 2018

The Myanmar Air Force (Tatmadaw Lay - TL) has received the first of up to 16 Pakistan Aeronautical Complex/Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation (PAC/CAC) JF-17 Thunder combat aircraft it ordered in 2015, it was disclosed on 15 December.

At least four aircraft were shown on static display in a video posted online of an official airshow celebrating the TL's 71st anniversary. With the sale announced in 2015, images of the aircraft being flight tested at CAC's airfield in Chengdu were posted in June 2017. As recently as April, Jane's was told that PAC is building the aircraft for Myanmar, with testing being conducted by CAC.


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## Trailer23

Maxpane said:


> Can they collaborate in jet engine making?


I'm going to Kiev (Ukraine) on the 26th for a layover - i'll ask  .


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## Nasr

I hope that Malaysia purchases 24-36 JF-17 Thunders from us, in-sha-Allah, Ameen!


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## fatman17

A similar export version called C-802A was also developed and is being carried by PAF JF-17 as well as by MAF JF-17M. Iran reverse-engineered C-802 as Noor which can be carried by its F-4. C-802A can also be carried by the new FC-31 still in development. An improved version called YJ-83KH has been developed featuring an IIR seeker.

- Last Updated 12/16/18

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## fatman17

Up to two CM-400AKGs can be carried by an FC-1/JF-17. A small yellow dorsal antenna was installed probably to provide the datalink between the missile and the aircraft. It has yet to see if CM-400AKG will enter the service with PAF. A recent image (July 2016) suggested that the program was still making progress with JF-17 seen undergoing weapon integration tests, possibly to meet the requirement of a new customer (Myanmar?).

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## Tank131

Can someone tell us why the CM 400AKG has not been inducted into the PAF. It appears to be the best answer to Brahmos available to PAF at the time. It also appears to be far superior to C-802 in terms of range and speed. The kinetic energy alone is enough to cripple if not sink a ship. 

Is there something wrong with the missile? Does it not fit the thunder the same way as Ra'ad? What exactly is their trepidation?

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## Mrc

Tank131 said:


> Can someone tell us why the CM 400AKG has not been inducted into the PAF. It appears to be the best answer to Brahmos available to PAF at the time. It also appears to be far superior to C-802 in terms of range and speed. The kinetic energy alone is enough to cripple if not sink a ship.
> 
> Is there something wrong with the missile? Does it not fit the thunder the same way as Ra'ad? What exactly is their trepidation?





Some times u wonder uoon sanity of procurement incharge. 

Cm. 400 akg shud b produced with a lical designation to get full potential of range


----------



## salman-1

Tank131 said:


> Can someone tell us why the CM 400AKG has not been inducted into the PAF. It appears to be the best answer to Brahmos available to PAF at the time. It also appears to be far superior to C-802 in terms of range and speed. The kinetic energy alone is enough to cripple if not sink a ship.
> 
> Is there something wrong with the missile? Does it not fit the thunder the same way as Ra'ad? What exactly is their trepidation?


Sir cm400akg is already in Paf arsenal. Paf has purchased 50 rounds of it approximately 2 years back. Current calendar also shows its picture carrying it, which is 2 years old pic too.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Tank131 said:


> Can someone tell us why the CM 400AKG has not been inducted into the PAF. It appears to be the best answer to Brahmos available to PAF at the time. It also appears to be far superior to C-802 in terms of range and speed. The kinetic energy alone is enough to cripple if not sink a ship.
> 
> Is there something wrong with the missile? Does it not fit the thunder the same way as Ra'ad? What exactly is their trepidation?





Mrc said:


> Some times u wonder uoon sanity of procurement incharge.
> 
> Cm. 400 akg shud b produced with a lical designation to get full potential of range


The CM-400AKG is a rocket, basically a mini air launched ballistic missile, not a supersonic crusing missile like BrahMos. For that the PAF would need to look at the Chinese CM-302, CX-1, and HD-1A. The HD-1A was reportedly designed with air launches in mind, so that may interest the PAF.

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## Umair Nawaz

so whats the reason for Blk 3 delay? why is it delayed till 2021?


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## Mrc

Umair Nawaz said:


> so whats the reason for Blk 3 delay? why is it delayed till 2021?




No delay... They will have inducted squadron by that date

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## Gryphon

Tank131 said:


> Can someone tell us why the CM 400AKG has not been inducted into the PAF. It appears to be the best answer to Brahmos available to PAF at the time. It also appears to be far superior to C-802 in terms of range and speed. The kinetic energy alone is enough to cripple if not sink a ship.
> 
> Is there something wrong with the missile? Does it not fit the thunder the same way as Ra'ad? What exactly is their trepidation?



CM-400AKG is advertised as a supersonic AGM, there is no active radar or IIR seeker. The existing seeker may work against larger targets like ACs, but will not be very effective against smaller targets (with smaller signatures).

Chinese supersonic cruise missiles (inc. HD-1A) are too large (and heavy) for the Block I/II and if there is a significant increase in Block III payload, expect it to carry not more than one missile (that too on the centerline pylon).



Umair Nawaz said:


> so whats the reason for Blk 3 delay? why is it delayed till 2021?



The radar and associated stuff has not been finalized yet, that explains delays in the program.

Meanwhile, PAC continues Block II production, 12 additional planes for PAF in 2018, 16 for Myanmar & 3 for Nigeria.

JF-17B is currently under trials with PAF, if orders are placed, we could see JF-17B production around 2020.

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## Quwa

In case anyone's interested in knowing, but the Leonardo Grifo-E is a GaN-based AESA radar.

https://www.janes.com/article/85332...de-radar-aims-to-bring-aesa-to-a-wider-market

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## Umair Nawaz

koi pakki baat ke yaar, delay q hua ha?


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## Tank131

Quwa said:


> In case anyone's interested in knowing, but the Leonardo Grifo-E is a GaN-based AESA radar.
> 
> https://www.janes.com/article/85332...de-radar-aims-to-bring-aesa-to-a-wider-market



This would be an excellent option but i think the Vixen 1000E showed us that China is not willing to play ball when it comes to getting its missiles' source codes married to European radars. If there are other options in the future like Denel Marlin and A darter then the Grifo or Vixen would make more sense. 



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The CM-400AKG is a rocket, basically a mini air launched ballistic missile, not a supersonic crusing missile like BrahMos. For that the PAF would need to look at the Chinese CM-302, CX-1, and HD-1A. The HD-1A was reportedly designed with air launches in mind, so that may interest the PAF.



The CX-1 to my understanding is a land and ship launched missile only. Im not sure the cm-302 or hd-1a could be carried by JF-17.


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## CriticalThought

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The CM-400AKG is a rocket, basically a mini air launched ballistic missile, not a supersonic crusing missile like BrahMos. For that the PAF would need to look at the Chinese CM-302, CX-1, and HD-1A. The HD-1A was reportedly designed with air launches in mind, so that may interest the PAF.



It is ideal for saturation attacks against armor columns or even large structures such as dams. A pack of 6 Thunders can launch 10 400 AKGs and one HD-1A. That's some awesome firepower right there. Launched against a battery of S-400s, it will give them some work to do giving the more accurate HD-1 better chance to hit target.

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## ziaulislam

Tank131 said:


> This would be an excellent option but i think the Vixen 1000E showed us that China is not willing to play ball when it comes to getting its missiles' source codes married to European radars. If there are other options in the future like Denel Marlin and A darter then the Grifo or Vixen would make more sense.
> 
> 
> 
> The CX-1 to my understanding is a land and ship launched missile only. Im not sure the cm-302 or hd-1a could be carried by JF-17.


A third party weapon from neutral state would have no issues like from douth africa Brazil ..already weapons ftom Brazil are in our fighters

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## ghazi52

*It is imperative to develop national spirit to realize dreams of founding fathers: Air chief*

Islamabad 20 December, 2018: “It is imperative to develop national spirit and national will to realize the dreams of our founding fathers”, said the Air Chief while addressing the faculty and students of Air University, Islamabad, today. 

Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force had an interactive session on the topic “Importance of National Spirit in the Age of Globalization”.

Addressing at the occasion, the Air Chief said, “The age of globalization has brought many challenges for our nation and we have to face and overcome these challenges. To benefit from various positives of the phenomenon, we have to protect our values, culture, family structure, national spirit and patriotism.” He further said, “if we want to excel in life we have to learn and adopt certain basic qualities such as tolerance, work ethics and better planning”.

Earlier, on his arrival the Air Chief was received by Air Vice Marshal (Retd), Faaiz Amir, Vice Chancellor of Air University.

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## ghazi52

Deputy Chief of the Air Staff (Operations), Air Marshal Muhammad Haseeb Paracha was the chief guest at the occasion. Defence Attaché from the Chinese embassy, Major General Chen Wenrong was also present on the occasion. PHOTO: PAF

*Pakistan-China joint air exercise ‘Shaheen-VII’ concluded with an august culmination ceremony at an operational air base of Pakistan Air Force (PAF) in Karachi on Friday.*

The main objective of the exercise was to maximise the combat readiness of the two air forces by providing a realistic training environment in different air combat scenarios, a spokesperson of the PAF said in a statement.

The high ranking officials of both the countries were given a comprehensive briefing on the exercise. Air Marshal Paracha highlighted significance of the joint venture and appreciated the personnel of both air forces for the smooth conduct of exercise.

Major General Wenrong, in his address thanked the PAF high command for offering traditional hospitality and providing the opportunity to learn from each other’s experiences.

PAF war veterans, PLAAF officials, diplomats from Chinese embassy, retired and senior serving officers also attended the ceremony. The distinguished guests visited the exercise monitoring cell to witness the conduct of the exercise.

Later on, the guests witnessed the launched missions of PAF and PLAAF’s participating fighter jets and support elements.

PAF has been participating in foreign exercises with leading and friendly air forces of the world. These exercises have helped in giving invaluable experience to the PAF combat crew and enhancing their professional competence.

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## Tps43

ghazi52 said:


> Deputy Chief of the Air Staff (Operations), Air Marshal Muhammad Haseeb Paracha


@Windjammer @Bilal Khan 777 @Knuckles @Hodor 
Is this true ? AM haseeb paracha is DCAS(O) now?
If true then this is one of the best news for me in a while.

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## Maxpane

Hm


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## Bilal Khan 777

Tps43 said:


> @Windjammer @Bilal Khan 777 @Knuckles @Hodor
> Is this true ? AM haseeb paracha is DCAS(O) now?
> If true then this is one of the best news for me in a while.



Yes, ACM Mujahid has brought his team onto key places.



ghazi52 said:


> Deputy Chief of the Air Staff (Operations), Air Marshal Muhammad Haseeb Paracha was the chief guest at the occasion. Defence Attaché from the Chinese embassy, Major General Chen Wenrong was also present on the occasion. PHOTO: PAF
> 
> *Pakistan-China joint air exercise ‘Shaheen-VII’ concluded with an august culmination ceremony at an operational air base of Pakistan Air Force (PAF) in Karachi on Friday.*
> 
> The main objective of the exercise was to maximise the combat readiness of the two air forces by providing a realistic training environment in different air combat scenarios, a spokesperson of the PAF said in a statement.
> 
> The high ranking officials of both the countries were given a comprehensive briefing on the exercise. Air Marshal Paracha highlighted significance of the joint venture and appreciated the personnel of both air forces for the smooth conduct of exercise.
> 
> Major General Wenrong, in his address thanked the PAF high command for offering traditional hospitality and providing the opportunity to learn from each other’s experiences.
> 
> PAF war veterans, PLAAF officials, diplomats from Chinese embassy, retired and senior serving officers also attended the ceremony. The distinguished guests visited the exercise monitoring cell to witness the conduct of the exercise.
> 
> Later on, the guests witnessed the launched missions of PAF and PLAAF’s participating fighter jets and support elements.
> 
> PAF has been participating in foreign exercises with leading and friendly air forces of the world. These exercises have helped in giving invaluable experience to the PAF combat crew and enhancing their professional competence.


Future PAF's high performance aircraft are also in this picture.

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## Muhammad Omar

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> Yes, ACM Mujahid has brought his team onto key places.
> 
> 
> Future PAF's high performance aircraft are also in this picture.


J-10

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## Tps43

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> Yes, ACM Mujahid has brought his team onto key places.


This is the development I was waiting for , so shahbaz group is on key position now good to see that



Bilal Khan 777 said:


> Future PAF's high performance aircraft are also in this picture.


@Starlord

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## YeBeWarned

Tps43 said:


> This is the development I was waiting for , so shahbaz group is on key position now good to see that
> 
> 
> @Starlord



left wing or Right wing ? 
Notice the Flags positions behind the Aircrafts , Aqaal mand ko ishara kafi

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## ZedZeeshan

Tps43 said:


> This is the development I was waiting for , so shahbaz group is on key position now good to see that
> 
> 
> @Starlord


SHAHBAZ GROUP...????can you elaborate...??


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## Tps43

Starlord said:


> left wing or Right wing ?
> Notice the Flags positions behind the Aircrafts , Aqaal mand ko ishara kafi


Ofcourse  Apne Chote bhai (JF 17 ) ke sath hai 
So ur wish is coming true.

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## YeBeWarned

Tps43 said:


> Ofcourse  Apne Chote bhai (JF 17 ) ke sath hai
> So ur wish is coming true.



Bhai , Hazaaro khwaishen aise hai ke har khawish pe dum niklay .. but after the constant ditching from US on F-shola this options is only feasible for us

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## Tps43

ZedZeeshan said:


> SHAHBAZ GROUP...????can you elaborate...??


They both are ex Base commander shabaz
ACM Mujahid
AM Asim Zaheer VCAS
AM Ahmar Shahzad (PAC)
AM Haseeb Paracha (DCAS O)
all of them are ex base commander shabaz and at important positions



Starlord said:


> Bhai , Hazaaro khwaishen aise hai ke har khawish pe dum niklay .. but after the constant ditching from US on F-shola this options is only feasible for us


Much Much Better then mirages whom they will replace .
I wished for EFT but J 10 is also not bad
3 sqn's of J 10 will give us enough breathing space

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## YeBeWarned

Tps43 said:


> Much Much Better then mirages whom they will replace .
> I wished for EFT but J 10 is also not bad
> 3 sqn's of J 10 will give us enough breathing space



yaar EFT is very expensive to operate and hence defeat the purpose of intern fighter or cheap option until Azm comes to life .. J-10C with be in my opinion a massive addition as they will bring AESA+IRST along with a massive payload to PAF , which will also fulfill the dreams of many members here who are asking for dedicated bombers . Chinese play it very smart as they tested TVC on J-10 they bring it to PAF , leave them with no reason not to consider it .

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## Tps43

Starlord said:


> yaar EFT is very expensive to operate and hence defeat the purpose of intern fighter or cheap option until Azm comes to life .. J-10C with be in my opinion a massive addition as they will bring AESA+IRST along with a massive payload to PAF , which will also fulfill the dreams of many members here who are asking for dedicated bombers . Chinese play it very smart as they tested TVC on J-10 they bring it to PAF , leave them with no reason not to consider it .


And We needed to update masroor and rafiqui as well, other then 27sqn non of mirage sqn should remaon in paf

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## Bilal Khan 777

I think there is place for both aircraft, as JF17 replaces all Block 15s, Mig 19s, and Mig-21s, we can take both these aircraft, 4 sqn each and that should be able to protect all three borders.

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## Maxpane

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> I think there is place for both aircraft, as JF17 replaces all Block 15s, Mig 19s, and Mig-21s, we can take both these aircraft, 4 sqn each and that should be able to protect all three borders.


Sir you mean j 10 c

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## fatman17

Pak China Shaheen VII Air Exercise executed successfully.
Mirage V, JH7, J11b, J10C, Jf17A, Mirage III can be seen in background. [emoji1191][emoji630] https://t.co/LYUOiz8vTg

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## khanasifm

fatman17 said:


> Pak China Shaheen VII Air Exercise executed successfully.
> Mirage V, JH7, J11b, J10C, Jf17A, Mirage III can be seen in background. [emoji1191][emoji630] https://t.co/LYUOiz8vTg
> View attachment 527993



F-7s ?? I guess no longer main force, mirage with 7 sqn and jf with 7 sqn make bulk of paf ??

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## Path-Finder

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1076388752132657153

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## Maxpane

Path-Finder said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1076388752132657153


Good gesture

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## Beethoven

knowledgable members of this forum please enlighten me how does a J10 C perform as compared to an F16 block 52+


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## LKJ86

Beethoven said:


> knowledgable members of this forum please enlighten me how does a J10 C perform as compared to an F16 block 52+


J-10C is equipped with an AESA radar and PL-15 AAM with the range of about 200KM, while F16 block 52+ is equipped with a PD radar.

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## Beethoven

LKJ86 said:


> J-10C is equipped with an AESA radar and PL-15 AAM with the range of about 200KM, while F16 block 52+ is equipped with a PD radar.


exactly and in addition to this J10C has IRST which the block 52 lacks...still i read somewhere in this forum that both these beauties were at par with each other and that confused me therefore i was trying to clear myself just in case i didnt know something that others might know about it


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## Dreamer.

Maxpane said:


> Sir you mean j 10 c


Obviously he means both J10C and J11B. While it might be nice to dream that PAF can get both I think finances will get in the way.

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## mingle

Dreamer. said:


> Obviously he means both J10C and J11B. While it might be nice to dream that PAF can get both I think finances will get in the way.


U forgetting Jh7 @MastanKhan favourite so make three planes two for PAF one for PN.



Dreamer. said:


> Obviously he means both J10C and J11B. While it might be nice to dream that PAF can get both I think finances will get in the way.


Both of two can also replace older models of F16s as well plus give enough time for 5th generation jet.

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## Maxpane



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## khanasifm

Maxpane said:


> View attachment 528597



Did f-16 no 19 moved out ?? 

At least for this exercise ?


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## Maxpane

khanasifm said:


> Did f-16 no 19 moved out ??
> 
> At least for this exercise ?


Dnt know sir


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## Ahmet Pasha

Secretly planning to re-educate PAF lol!!!


Maxpane said:


> View attachment 528597


----------



## Maxpane



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## Maxpane




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## khanasifm

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Secretly planning to re-educate PAF lol!!!



Did not realize she is a 3 star [emoji294]️ ?? Is she ?


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## Tps43

khanasifm said:


> Did not realize she is a 3 star [emoji294]️ ?? Is she ?


Equivalent to our Flt Lt


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## khanasifm

Ok so these star on collar are not general [emoji294]️ ?? But rather captain 3 stars [emoji294]️

Most western collar star are generals insignia

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## fatman17

The latest rumor (November 2018) suggested that an EW variant (JF-17E?) has been proposed.
- Last Updated 11/20/18

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## Maxpane



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## fatman17

PLAAF J11B [emoji630] at Bholari air base during #SHAHEENIV exercise with Pakistan Air Force [emoji1191] https://t.co/MpjyBD6V5i

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## LKJ86

fatman17 said:


> PLAAF J11B [emoji630] at Bholari air base during #SHAHEENIV exercise with Pakistan Air Force [emoji1191] https://t.co/MpjyBD6V5i
> View attachment 529004


J-11BS

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## Maxpane

LKJ86 said:


> J-11BS


Sir whats the difference between j11 band j 11 bs?


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## Yasser76

RAF gives Force Protection training to PAF






Award for 3rd PAF F-16 simulator

L3 Link Simulation and Training, Arlington, Texas, has been awarded a $7,064,503 firm-fixed-price contract for the Pakistan Air Force F-16A Block 15 mid-life upgrade 3rd aircrew training device, with spares and contractor logistics support as priced options. Work will be performed in Arlington, Texas, and is expected to be completed by November 2020. This award was the result of a sole-source acquisition via letter of offer and acceptance/international agreement competitive restrictions, and involves 100 percent foreign military sales to Pakistan. Air Force Life Cycle Management Center, Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Ohio, is the contracting activity (FA8621-18-C-0019).


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## LKJ86

Maxpane said:


> Sir whats the difference between j11 band j 11 bs?


J-11B is a single-seat version, while J-11BS is a dual-seat version.

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## Maxpane

LKJ86 said:


> J-11B is a single-seat version, while J-11BS is a dual-seat version.


Oh ok thank you sir

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## Zarvan

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1078589680424288258


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## Zarvan




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## fatman17

Air Platforms

China flies DART-450-derived military basic trainer aircraft

Gareth Jennings, London - Jane's Defence Weekly

28 December 2018

A photograph published in late 2017 of the DART-450 in PLAAF markings gave the first indication that China was planning to develop the aircraft into a military basic trainer. Source: Via Wu Jie

China has flown a new military trainer aircraft derived from the Diamond DART-450 single-engined turboprop, state media disclosed in late 2018.

The flight of the tandem two-seat trainer developed by China Electronics Technology Corporation (CETC) Wuhu Diamond Aircraft Manufacturing Company, was reported to have taken place at the company's facility in Jiangsu Province on 6 November.

Designated the TA-20, the new aircraft is a product of a joint venture (JV) between the CETC and the Wuhu Municipal Government, which builds aircraft on licence from Austria-based Diamond Aircraft Industries. Jane' s first reported in October 2017 that the Diamond Aircraft Reconnaissance Trainer (DART)-450 was being lined up as a possible candidate for development into a military basic trainer aircraft for the People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF).

The cockpits of the TA-20 are equipped with the Smart-210 avionics system developed indigenously by Chengdu Hermes Technology Company Limited . (Chengdu Hermes Technology Company Limited)

The DART-450 on which the TA-20 is based was developed rapidly by Diamond, with first drawings to first flight taking just one year (the maiden flight was recorded on 17 May 2016). The all-carbon fibre tandem two-seat civilian and military trainer features a sidestick and pneumatic ejection seats. The aircraft has a top-speed of 230 kt, a service ceiling of 23,000 ft (7,010 m), and a maximum endurance of eight hours plus reserve.

While the baseline DART-450 features Garmin G3000 avionics, the TA-20 has been equipped with the Smart-210 system developed indigenously by Chengdu Hermes Technology Company Limited. Imagery posted by the company shows both cockpits to be fitted with a single large-area display touchscreen, suitable for training pilots for fifth-generation platforms such as the J-20. The aircraft's side-stick control column is also similar to that fitted to the J-20.

The PLAAF is engaged in an extensive modernisation and recapitalisation programme that is seeing new combat aircraft introduced in large numbers. Running parallel to this expansion in combat capabilities is an expansion in trainer capabilities, with the GAIC JL-9 Shanying and HAIG JL-10 advanced jet trainers having been received by the PLAAF over recent years.


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## LKJ86

fatman17 said:


> Air Platforms
> 
> China flies DART-450-derived military basic trainer aircraft
> 
> Gareth Jennings, London - Jane's Defence Weekly
> 
> 28 December 2018
> 
> A photograph published in late 2017 of the DART-450 in PLAAF markings gave the first indication that China was planning to develop the aircraft into a military basic trainer. Source: Via Wu Jie
> 
> China has flown a new military trainer aircraft derived from the Diamond DART-450 single-engined turboprop, state media disclosed in late 2018.
> 
> The flight of the tandem two-seat trainer developed by China Electronics Technology Corporation (CETC) Wuhu Diamond Aircraft Manufacturing Company, was reported to have taken place at the company's facility in Jiangsu Province on 6 November.
> 
> Designated the TA-20, the new aircraft is a product of a joint venture (JV) between the CETC and the Wuhu Municipal Government, which builds aircraft on licence from Austria-based Diamond Aircraft Industries. Jane' s first reported in October 2017 that the Diamond Aircraft Reconnaissance Trainer (DART)-450 was being lined up as a possible candidate for development into a military basic trainer aircraft for the People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF).
> 
> The cockpits of the TA-20 are equipped with the Smart-210 avionics system developed indigenously by Chengdu Hermes Technology Company Limited . (Chengdu Hermes Technology Company Limited)
> 
> The DART-450 on which the TA-20 is based was developed rapidly by Diamond, with first drawings to first flight taking just one year (the maiden flight was recorded on 17 May 2016). The all-carbon fibre tandem two-seat civilian and military trainer features a sidestick and pneumatic ejection seats. The aircraft has a top-speed of 230 kt, a service ceiling of 23,000 ft (7,010 m), and a maximum endurance of eight hours plus reserve.
> 
> While the baseline DART-450 features Garmin G3000 avionics, the TA-20 has been equipped with the Smart-210 system developed indigenously by Chengdu Hermes Technology Company Limited. Imagery posted by the company shows both cockpits to be fitted with a single large-area display touchscreen, suitable for training pilots for fifth-generation platforms such as the J-20. The aircraft's side-stick control column is also similar to that fitted to the J-20.
> 
> The PLAAF is engaged in an extensive modernisation and recapitalisation programme that is seeing new combat aircraft introduced in large numbers. Running parallel to this expansion in combat capabilities is an expansion in trainer capabilities, with the GAIC JL-9 Shanying and HAIG JL-10 advanced jet trainers having been received by the PLAAF over recent years.

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## Dreamer.

This is PLAAF news.



fatman17 said:


> Air Platforms
> 
> China flies DART-450-derived military basic trainer aircraft
> 
> Gareth Jennings, London - Jane's Defence Weekly
> 
> 28 December 2018
> 
> A photograph published in late 2017 of the DART-450 in PLAAF markings gave the first indication that China was planning to develop the aircraft into a military basic trainer. Source: Via Wu Jie
> 
> China has flown a new military trainer aircraft derived from the Diamond DART-450 single-engined turboprop, state media disclosed in late 2018.
> 
> The flight of the tandem two-seat trainer developed by China Electronics Technology Corporation (CETC) Wuhu Diamond Aircraft Manufacturing Company, was reported to have taken place at the company's facility in Jiangsu Province on 6 November.
> 
> Designated the TA-20, the new aircraft is a product of a joint venture (JV) between the CETC and the Wuhu Municipal Government, which builds aircraft on licence from Austria-based Diamond Aircraft Industries. Jane' s first reported in October 2017 that the Diamond Aircraft Reconnaissance Trainer (DART)-450 was being lined up as a possible candidate for development into a military basic trainer aircraft for the People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF).
> 
> The cockpits of the TA-20 are equipped with the Smart-210 avionics system developed indigenously by Chengdu Hermes Technology Company Limited . (Chengdu Hermes Technology Company Limited)
> 
> The DART-450 on which the TA-20 is based was developed rapidly by Diamond, with first drawings to first flight taking just one year (the maiden flight was recorded on 17 May 2016). The all-carbon fibre tandem two-seat civilian and military trainer features a sidestick and pneumatic ejection seats. The aircraft has a top-speed of 230 kt, a service ceiling of 23,000 ft (7,010 m), and a maximum endurance of eight hours plus reserve.
> 
> While the baseline DART-450 features Garmin G3000 avionics, the TA-20 has been equipped with the Smart-210 system developed indigenously by Chengdu Hermes Technology Company Limited. Imagery posted by the company shows both cockpits to be fitted with a single large-area display touchscreen, suitable for training pilots for fifth-generation platforms such as the J-20. The aircraft's side-stick control column is also similar to that fitted to the J-20.
> 
> The PLAAF is engaged in an extensive modernisation and recapitalisation programme that is seeing new combat aircraft introduced in large numbers. Running parallel to this expansion in combat capabilities is an expansion in trainer capabilities, with the GAIC JL-9 Shanying and HAIG JL-10 advanced jet trainers having been received by the PLAAF over recent years.


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## ghazi52



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## hassan1



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## Maxpane



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## Maxpane



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## Zulfiqar

Thunders flying over blue area for an hour. Anything happening?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1081082040387289088


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## Maxpane



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## salman-1

Zulfiqar said:


> Thunders flying over blue area for an hour. Anything happening?
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1081082040387289088


Might be waking up the President.


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## BERKEKHAN2

https://www.rjaf.mil.jo/ar/showannouncement-08.html

Jordanian C130 B for sale 
Paf could look in

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## mingle

Storm bombardier said:


> https://www.rjaf.mil.jo/ar/showannouncement-08.html
> 
> Jordanian C130 B for sale
> Paf could look in


Not only C130 they selling F16s too among that inventory pak can have Atleast 70% except Hawk trainers.

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## khanasifm

https://www.rjaf.mil.jo/en/showannouncement-4.html

Dated 2016 but looks like back on ??

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## Nasr

Well if Pakistan Air Force goes for the Jordanian Vipers, then this acquisition would officially bring the total number of Pakistan Air Force Vipers, above 100! It is almost surreal that 35 years on, Pakistan Air Force will have reached the desired number of Vipers they wanted, back in 1983. Dunno whether that's a good thing or a bad thing. But one thing is for certain, that Pakistan Air Force will operate Vipers for some years to come. As such, Pakistan Air Force ought to be stockpiling on spare parts and engines for their Viper fleet.

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## GriffinsRule

Ghazwa1 said:


> Well if Pakistan Air Force goes for the Jordanian Vipers, then this acquisition would officially bring the total number of Pakistan Air Force Vipers, above 100! It is almost surreal that 35 years on, Pakistan Air Force will have reached the desired number of Vipers they wanted, back in 1983. Dunno whether that's a good thing or a bad thing. But one thing is for certain, that Pakistan Air Force will operate Vipers for some years to come. As such, Pakistan Air Force ought to be stockpiling on spare parts and engines for their Viper fleet.



Certainly a good thing from two perspectives ... lower operating and acquisition costs vs any other comparable fighter. Second, the larger the fleet, the more it can sustain operations in the conflict since even if you have to cannibalize part of the fleet to keep some airworthy, you still have more fighters available for the duration. Once the conflict is over, having the fleet grounded for some time is not as impactful as those supply lines eventually reopen. Just my 2 cents

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## Maxpane



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## GriffinsRule

Falcon26 said:


> Where’s the evidence that China will not sell their Russian knockoffs to third parties? This claim has been made repeatedly on this forum but without any substantive evidence.
> 
> China sold their MiG-19 & MiG-21 knockoffs the world over. There’s little doubt they won’t sell their Su-knockoffs if the price is right.



@Falcon26 and all other proponents of Pakistan buying Chinese Flanker variants and asking for evidence and proof ... this should settle the debate now. No J-11 are ever going to come from China for PAF. Read the highlighted part.

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## Maxpane



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## denel

khanasifm said:


> https://www.rjaf.mil.jo/en/showannouncement-4.html
> 
> Dated 2016 but looks like back on ??


there was a page where they were advertising what they were getting rid off; then f-16 inventory was taken off it; the assumption was it was bought by PAF (these were the aircraft deemed to have too many hours, i believe).


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## ghazi52

JF-17 Thunders Flypast for the Crown Prince of Abu Dhabi Sheikh Muhammad Bin Zayed Al Nahyan on his visit to Pakistan






__ https://www.facebook.com/

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## Nasr

Prime Minister Imran Khan certainly looks menacingly serious. I hope he lifts Pakistan to become a strong and united nation, in-sha-Allah. JF-17 Thunder display, was spectacular, ma-sha-Allah.

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## GriffinsRule

denel said:


> there was a page where they were advertising what they were getting rid off; then f-16 inventory was taken off it; the assumption was it was bought by PAF (these were the aircraft deemed to have too many hours, i believe).



There were taken off as a company in the US was going to acquire them as aggressors for training USAF pilots in air combat. That deal did not pan out

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## GriffinsRule

I am kinda interested in what is going on with Jordanian Air Force. Now they are also selling their two AC-235 gunships that they upgraded only in 2014? Talk about poor planning. At the same time, something that PAF could find useful

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## ziaulislam

GriffinsRule said:


> I am kinda interested in what is going on with Jordanian Air Force. Now they are also selling their two AC-235 gunships that they upgraded only in 2014? Talk about poor planning. At the same time, something that PAF could find useful


They are in a financial crisis

And so are we

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## mingle

ziaulislam said:


> They are in a financial crisis
> 
> And so are we


No they changed the doctrine it's more focused COIN ops they reduced the size of AF beacuse they dont have enemy country there was isreal but they have peace with them.

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## denel

GriffinsRule said:


> There were taken off as a company in the US was going to acquire them as aggressors for training USAF pilots in air combat. That deal did not pan out


ok. any possibility on the rumour it may be coming over?


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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

fatman17 said:


> Pak China Shaheen VII Air Exercise executed successfully.
> Mirage V, JH7, J11b, J10C, Jf17A, Mirage III can be seen in background.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://t.co/LYUOiz8vTg
> View attachment 527993





Maxpane said:


> View attachment 528648
> 
> 
> View attachment 528649


Ummet-i Muhammed is, by definition, second to none among the entire Beni Adem...

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## Maxpane



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## ghazi52

PAF bought 120 F-86 sabres starting in 1954.
The jets served PAF until 1980.
Picture shows a newly bought batch of the jets lined up at Masroor air base Karachi.

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## denel

ghazi52 said:


> PAF bought 120 F-86 sabres starting in 1954.
> The jets served PAF until 1980.
> Picture shows a newly bought batch of the jets lined up at Masroor air base Karachi.


love the sabres.

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## mingle

I have met retired RCaF Colonel Kurtis. He was F86 Canadiar Sabre pilot .I asked him about Pak that era he told me he has flown along with Pak fighter pilot full of praise of them.He called Hot guys great pilots.

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## fatman17

Maxpane said:


> View attachment 531288


Spelt as SABRE


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## fatman17

PAF is Adding 28 Fourth Gen JF-17 Thunder Jets to its Fleet

PAF to Induct 63 Fourth Generation Fighter Jets to Its Fleet | propakistani.pk
Raza Rizvi in AviationDefenseNews

Pakistan Airforce (PAF) is going to add 63 fourth generation, indigenously built, JF-17 fighter jets to its fleet by the year 2022, a report revealed on Sunday.

JF-17, a Multi Combat Aircraft, is jointly built by Pakistan’s Aeronautical Complex and China’s Chengdu Aircraft Corporation.


As per the report, PAF is going to get 35 JF-17 Block 2 – the already existing JF series – and 28 JF-17 Block 3 aircraft – the fourth generation warplane- within the next four years.


PAF Purchased Turkish Advanced Targeting Pods for JF-17 Thunder

The addition of Block 2 fighter planes will be completed by 2020 with PAF receiving 13 of the aircraft in 2019 and remaining by 2020.

The two countries are also jointly developing JF-17 Block 3, fourth-generation fighter jets which will be delivered to Pakistan Air Force by 2022.


The report suggests that China’s Chengdu Aircraft Corporation would deliver the first two JF-17 Block 3 jets and the remaining 26 would be made in Pakistan.


Nigeria to Buy 3 JF-17 Fighter Jets from Pakistan

What’s New in JF-17 Block 3??
JF-17 Block 3 is a fourth generation warplane with more advanced equipment and features such as:

Avionics Lab
Pilot Visor
A new single panel multi-functional display.
An active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar
An infrared search and track system
A two-seater cockpit option with a flight control stick
A top speed of 2.00 plus Mach

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## Nasr

fatman17 said:


> Avionics Lab
> Pilot Visor
> A new single panel multi-functional display.
> An active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar
> An infrared search and track system
> A two-seater cockpit option with a flight control stick
> *A top speed of 2.00 plus Mach*
> View attachment 531642



That definitely means the Thunder is getting new, uprated engines. About time, Alhumdulillah.

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## Tank131

Ghazwa1 said:


> That definitely means the Thunder is getting new, uprated engines. About time, Alhumdulillah.



Or its getting lighter. BTW, i was under the impression that the speed limitation on the JF-17 is more to do with the DSI than then engine/weight itself. Afterall, even the J-10's top speed dropped from Mach 2.2 to Mach 1.8 after the DSI was placed. The F-35 (with the single most powerful jet engine) has a Top Speed of Mach 1.6, also has a DSI. I know its been discussed before, but maybe someone can shed more light?
@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Bilal Khan 777 @Oscar @MastanKhan?


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## MastanKhan

Tank131 said:


> Or its getting lighter. BTW, i was under the impression that the speed limitation on the JF-17 is more to do with the DSI than then engine/weight itself. I know its been discussed before, but maybe someone can shed more light?
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Bilal Khan 777 @Oscar @MastanKhan?



Hi,

Speed limitations are indeed due to DSI---.

The important part is not the speed---but acceleration---. The speed in itself from 1200 mph to 1400 mph ain't gonna do anything in combat.

For fighter aircraft---it is all about acceleration---from 300 to 550 knots---.

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## SQ8

Tank131 said:


> Or its getting lighter. BTW, i was under the impression that the speed limitation on the JF-17 is more to do with the DSI than then engine/weight itself. Afterall, even the J-10's top speed dropped from Mach 2.2 to Mach 1.8 after the DSI was placed. The F-35 (with the single most powerful jet engine) has a Top Speed of Mach 1.6, also has a DSI. I know its been discussed before, but maybe someone can shed more light?
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Bilal Khan 777 @Oscar @MastanKhan?


Since DSI is not a moving part(cannot adapt or change) it is kept limited to a certain performance parameters or in this case a Mach number and compression flow optimized around that.(the original test DSI on the F-16 was good to Mach 2 but not the most efficient flow manager)

Since modern combat aircraft VERY RARELY exceed Mach 1.5 in countless scenarios seen in the past 30 years; the limit is well thought out and works well.

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## Maxpane



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## Maxpane



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## Raider 21

Maxpane said:


> View attachment 531978


Beautiful !!!!

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## Maxpane



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## mingle

Knuckles said:


> Beautiful !!!!


Why I always believe that @Maxpane is a Bot? Or he is a grade 10 school kid? I asked him never answer me.


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## Maxpane

mingle said:


> Why I always believe that @Maxpane is a Bot? Or he is a grade 10 school kid? I asked him never answer me.


yes am grade 10 kid . what do you want you want to ask ?

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## mingle

Maxpane said:


> yes am grade 10 kid . what do you want you want to ask ?


Thanks man Atleast u answered I found ur comments very weird that's why I asked. You never wrote a sentence or put ur own thought all I see was likes pics and wow, I am glad ur a real human being not an artificial intelligence Bott. 
Cheer up and thanks for the answer wish u all ur best.


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## Maxpane

mingle said:


> Thanks man Atleast u answered I found ur comments very weird that's why I asked. You never wrote a sentence or put ur own thought all I see was likes pics and wow, I am glad ur a real human being not an artificial intelligence Bott.
> Cheer up and thanks for the answer wish u all ur best.


sir i dnt have time to write paragraphs. mostly i comment wow or great which are weird but these comments allow me to see the discussion and getging different point of view and help me to have a balance views and not be single sided. So my weird comments are useful to enhance my knowledge . Hope you now get my point

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## araz

Maxpane said:


> sir i dnt have time to write paragraphs. mostly i comment wow or great which are weird but these comments allow me to see the discussion and getging different point of view and help me to have a balance views and not be single sided. So my weird comments are useful to enhance my knowledge . Hope you now get my point


Do find the time to write a few lines and learn how to argue your point of view. It is important for your future development. Wows abd thats great do not add much to the value of the debate.
A

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## Dazzler



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## CriticalThought

Dazzler said:


>




Details please?


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## Dazzler

CriticalThought said:


> Details please?



MK.8xx casing and accessories built locally.

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## Cuirassier

Coming to think of it, PAF has radically changed in the past decade.

From A-5s to a backbone of 4th gen JF17s and F16s. The F7s have been reduced to a third of what we had, and our AWACS capacity has increased to 10 systems, indicating that the High Command wants all corners of the nation's airspace secure. Base Air Defense has also improved with Spada systems. 

Missile tech like the Ra'ad and new purchases of ARMs and BVRs have also improved our strike prowess. We're looking for a 5th gen program seriously and have Block 3s rolling out soon, with a chance that the rest of the Thunder fleet gets AESAs too. 

If we keep going on this course, we could be entering into a golden age for the PAF soon.

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## Trailer23

Was watching an exclusive interview by _*Kamran Shahid*_ (On the Front) of *Cameron Munter*, the former US Ambassador to Pakistan, a couple of days back.

Mr. Munter is now CEO & President of _The EastWest Institute_ - whatever the hell that is.

If you scroll to timecode *32:27* of the interview, Kamran speaks of the Military Aid (suspended by Donald Trump) and the question has been strategically dodged by Mr. Munter.






Apologies for most questions by _Kamran Shaid_ have been dubbed in Urdu.


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## ghazi52



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## khanasifm

Typical pak style questions based on conspiracy and here say


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## fatman17

Brand new AgustaWestland AW-139 helicopter in camouflage scheme built for Pakistan Army photographed during a test flight with Italian registration I-RAIO in Venegono Inferiore, Italy, on January 18, 2019. https://t.co/ntWN9HVfxi

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## fatman17

Flight Lieutenant Tahir Akbar who Embraced Shahadat today in a tragic F-7PG crash this morning at Mastung. 

May ALLAH accept his sacrifice for greater cause, May ALLAH ease the suffering of his loved ones, Ameen ... https://t.co/0K3PM6QCkO

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## Windjammer

Front portion of Sir M M Alam's F-86 Sabre .

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## Cool_Soldier

RIP


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## ghazi52

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dxw3F0kW0AY2geg.jpg












Air Chief Marshal, Mujahid Anwar Khan says Pakistan Air Force is proud of its futuristic and dynamic approach and is always open to new ideas.

He was addressing the Graduation Ceremony of 51st Combat Commanders' Course held at Airpower Centre of Excellence in Islamabad today.

The Air Chief urged the graduating officers to make consistent efforts for grooming of younger fighter pilots and controllers, which is extremely vital for overall war preparedness of the PAF.

He said that combat training in PAF can be maintained at highest pedestal only if we remain sensitive to contemporary challenges and meet them in line with emerging modern concepts.

The Air Chief also awarded certificates and trophies to the graduating officers.

The Chief of the Air Staff Trophy for the best Combat Commander was awarded to Squadron Leader Ahmed Sami while Air Officer Commanding Air Defence Command Trophy for best Combat Controller was awarded to Squadron Leader Asif Gulzar.

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## fatman17

The graduation ceremony of the Pak AF's 51st Combat Commanders' Course took place at PAF Base Mushaf on Friday. The best Combat Commander award went to Sqn Ldr Ahmed Sami while Sqn Ldr Asif Gulzar won the trophy for the best Combat Controller. Its a very important qualification. https://t.co/N9HqIvAwZw


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## fatman17

Exercise Falcon Talon lll 
PAF - USAF.

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## Maxpane

can we buy jh 7 in minimum price and then upgrade them without using much money on other platform ?


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## salman-1

Jh7 buying is like newly made Rose Mirage 3/5. It's an old dud, old fashioned old design like F4 phantom. Not in production any more. We should move on to J-10c which can bring strike ability manifold


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## Maxpane

salman-1 said:


> Jh7 buying is like newly made Rose Mirage 3/5. It's an old dud, old fashioned old design like F4 phantom. Not in production any more. We should move on to J-10c which can bring strike ability manifold


sir we can buy j 10 but for maritime strike we should negotiate for jh 7e it would increase our power with in no time just like we buy howitzer from italy


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## salman-1

Maxpane said:


> sir we can buy j 10 but for maritime strike we should negotiate for jh 7e it would increase our power with in no time just like we buy howitzer from italy


Jh7 as I told you brother no more in production. If you ask Chinese they would offer you other planes like J10. J10 has all the capabilities of strike, maritime strike and air interception.


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## Maxpane

brother jh 7 e is for export . you can ask chinese member we can get them giving peanuts


salman-1 said:


> Jh7 as I told you brother no more in production. If you ask Chinese they would offer you other planes like J10. J10 has all the capabilities of strike, maritime strike and air interception.

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## fatman17

fatman17 said:


> Exercise Falcon Talon lll
> PAF - USAF.
> View attachment 535902
> View attachment 535903
> View attachment 535904


I thought all inter action was suspended.

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## MIRauf

Maxpane said:


> brother jh 7 e is for export . you can ask chinese member we can get them giving peanuts



JH-7E doesn't exist, best bet be to buy surplus JH-7As when they become available. I will not debate with you why you shouldn't as it seems others writing hasn't made a dent in your pursuit of JH-7.


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## Maxpane

MIRauf said:


> JH-7E doesn't exist


it does exist sir.

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## Nasr

Come on guys, no need to argue here. JH-7E exist, but the decision to buy such aircraft is with Pakistan Air Force. We can't be conclusive on this matter. Just have to wait on what pans out in the end.


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## Tank131

My understanding is JH-7 is no longer in production. Those JH-7s that are currently in service are being offered for sale after refurbishment amd these are being marketed as JH-7E. While it may be the case that there is no further production, i dont think ignoring it is good. If you dont think of it as a a2a fighter but rather a maritime and strategic strike fighter, it is still the best of all available options. With the exception of Mirage, no aircraft in PAF can currently carry RAAD or be set up for nuclear strike. Buying second hand JH-7A for pennies on the dollar (i would ask also for upgrades electronics with J-16s electronic suite esp AESA and ISRT) is an inexpensive way to help retire Mirage and maintain/augment you nuclear strike, a2g missions amd most importantly, maritime strike capacity. 2 sqn along with the No. 2 sqn operating JF-17 would be a profound upgrade for the above requirements. It buys time for a newer more advanced fighter tontake its role (Azm?).

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## Maxpane

absolutely sir. thats what i wanted to say


Tank131 said:


> My understanding is JH-7 is no longer in production. Those JH-7s that are currently in service are being offered for sale after refurbishment amd these are being marketed as JH-7E. While it may be the case that there is no further production, i dont think ignoring it is good. If you dont think of it as a a2a fighter but rather a maritime and strategic strike fighter, it is still the best of all available options. With the exception of Mirage, no aircraft in PAF can currently carry RAAD or be set up for nuclear strike. Buying second hand JH-7A for pennies on the dollar (i would ask also for upgrades electronics with J-16s electronic suite esp AESA and ISRT) is an inexpensive way to help retire Mirage and maintain/augment you nuclear strike, a2g missions amd most importantly, maritime strike capacity. 2 sqn along with the No. 2 sqn operating JF-17 would be a profound upgrade for the above requirements. It buys time for a newer more advanced fighter tontake its role (Azm?).


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## Nasr

Tank131 said:


> My understanding is JH-7 is no longer in production. Those JH-7s that are currently in service are being offered for sale after refurbishment amd these are being marketed as JH-7E. While it may be the case that there is no further production, i dont think ignoring it is good. If you dont think of it as a a2a fighter but rather a maritime and strategic strike fighter, it is still the best of all available options. With the exception of Mirage, no aircraft in PAF can currently carry RAAD or be set up for nuclear strike. Buying second hand JH-7A for pennies on the dollar (i would ask also for upgrades electronics with J-16s electronic suite esp AESA and ISRT) is an inexpensive way to help retire Mirage and maintain/augment you nuclear strike, a2g missions amd most importantly, maritime strike capacity. 2 sqn along with the No. 2 sqn operating JF-17 would be a profound upgrade for the above requirements. It buys time for a newer more advanced fighter tontake its role (Azm?).



Well one of two things could happen here.

1. Pakistan either develops technologies to make ALCM small enough, yet effective enough to be carried on Thunders. Meantime prolonging the life of Mirages with additional purchases like the ones from Egypt.

2. Pakistan marks the requirement for J-16 or Su-34 or JH-7 like missile carrier, which would eventually can fill the combat role that the Mirages fulfill currently.

In my view, presently the most likely thing to happen is the purchase of Egyptian and other countries' Mirages to maintain our Mirage fighter-bomber fleet at optimum operational readiness. Perhaps sometime in the not too distant future, Pakistan Air Force will decide on what aircraft would suitably replace the Mirage fighter-bomber role. In an ideal world, it would've been Vipers, but that's not the sort of world we live in.


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## Tank131

Nasr said:


> Well one of two things could happen here.
> 
> 1. Pakistan either develops technologies to make ALCM small enough, yet effective enough to be carried on Thunders. Meantime prolonging the life of Mirages with additional purchases like the ones from Egypt.
> 
> 2. Pakistan marks the requirement for J-16 or Su-34 or JH-7 like missile carrier, which would eventually can fill the combat role that the Mirages fulfill currently.
> 
> In my view, presently the most likely thing to happen is the purchase of Egyptian and other countries' Mirages to maintain our Mirage fighter-bomber fleet at optimum operational readiness. Perhaps sometime in the not too distant future, Pakistan Air Force will decide on what aircraft would suitably replace the Mirage fighter-bomber role. In an ideal world, it would've been Vipers, but that's not the sort of world we live in.


PAF is in the mode of replacing Mirage, not adding more. They are starting to literally fall from the skies. It would be safer to get a low cost option like JH-7A which could easily soldier for another 10-15 years safely and protect your pilots while at the same time adding capability. People think because it isnt agile. It isnt worth it, but it isnt an air superiority fighter, its a missile truck. It will be as effective at long range as any other 4th gen fighter. Its range and payload are comparable to Su-30. While Mirage can carry 1 exocet and JF-17 can carry 2 C-802A, the JH-7A can carry 2 CM-400AKG AND 2-C-802A all while still carrying 2 SD-10s AND 2 WVR missiles. It could potentially carry 4 RAAD. It is the ideal low altitude strike aircraft for PAF and equipped properly would be a boon in the strike game for PAF. It will buy time for the PAF to re-equip sqn with older aircraft with JF-17 Blk 3 or AZM or whatever you select in a manner that protects your pilots while adding tremendous capacity to protect your coast for relatively cheap.

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

Thank you for your post---. Most members on this board have no clue how important is it for one aircraft to have more than one strike missile on its pylons.

With anti missile capabilities increasing exponentially---the chance of one missile to get thru has decreased tremendously. So---when there is only that one opportunity available to make the strike---the aircraft must be loaded to the hilt---.

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## LKJ86

Why not go for some H-6K bombs?

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## CriticalThought

Tank131 said:


> PAF is in the mode of replacing Mirage, not adding more. They are starting to literally fall from the skies. It would be safer to get a low cost option like JH-7A which could easily soldier for another 10-15 years safely and protect your pilots while at the same time adding capability. People think because it isnt agile. It isnt worth it, but it isnt an air superiority fighter, its a missile truck. It will be as effective at long range as any other 4th gen fighter. Its range and payload are comparable to Su-30. While Mirage can carry 1 exocet and JF-17 can carry 2 C-802A, the JH-7A can carry 2 CM-400AKG AND 2-C-802A all while still carrying 2 SD-10s. It could potentially carry 4 RAAD. It is the ideal low altitude strike aircraft for PAF and equipped properly would be a boon in the strike game for PAF. It will buy time for the PAF to re-equip sqn with older aircraft with JF-17 Blk 3 or AZM or whatever you select in a manner that protects your pilots while adding tremendous capacity to protect your coast for relatively cheap.



If a bomb truck is what's needed, I'd prefer utilizing transport aircrafts for the purpose.


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## HRK



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## Tank131

CriticalThought said:


> If a bomb truck is what's needed, I'd prefer utilizing transport aircrafts for the purpose.



They aren't equipped with dire control radars and they are not able to defend themselves. A JH-7A can launch 4 AShM and still has 2 SD-10A and 2 PL-10 (which could be married to a HMS) and can escape at Mach 2.2. Alsonit is a low altitude fighter whereas transport AC are higher altitude and huge RCS. This is an ideal stop-gap. Dont get me wrong, the J-10 is a great aircraft and as far as multirole AC go, its no contests between the two, but a. New. J-10C likely to cost 3x as much as a refurb and upgraded JH-7A.



LKJ86 said:


> Why not go for some H-6K bombs?
> View attachment 535993



I have made that argument countless times. I have stated numerous times that 7-8 H-6K would be a game changer for PN. They could be equipped with 6 air launched variants of Babur (which would presumably have 1000km+ of range). These would be the single most effective counter to S400. A single bomber could be 500km inside Pakistan and still launch deep strikes into India, at S400 positions and with 6 CM it would likely be able to overrun the S400 battery.

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## CriticalThought

Tank131 said:


> They aren't equipped with dire control radars and they are not able to defend themselves. A JH-7A can launch 4 AShM and still has 2 SD-10A and 2 PL-10 (which could be married to a HMS) and can escape at Mach 2.2. Alsonit is a low altitude fighter whereas transport AC are higher altitude and huge RCS. This is an ideal stop-gap. Dont get me wrong, the J-10 is a great aircraft and as far as multirole AC go, its no contests between the two, but a. New. J-10C likely to cost 3x as much as a refurb and upgraded JH-7A.



If a transport is to be used at all during a modern war, it must be equipped with situational awareness ( enemy planes, incoming threats), and counter measures at the very least. Now, I raise the question. What stops a transport from firing a BVR for self-protection? And why can't we have active protection against aerial threats? Armed with such capabilities, the transport becomes a flying fortress. On top of that, the range of A2G missiles should be increased such that the need for flying low is eliminated. Interestingly, the higher the plane and the faster it flies, the longer the missile's range.


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## GriffinsRule

If you want a replacement for the Mirage, and at that, used aircraft as the replacement, go buy the M2Ks from Qatar and UAE. Im sure, France would love to sell their used inventory as well. Heck go offer the Egyptians to barter new JF-17s for their 18-19 odd Mirages as well. Would still be a better plane than the pos JH-7

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## Maxpane

SLAMABAD: Royal Thailand Air Force Commander-in-Chief Air Chief Marshal Chaiyapruk Didyasarin visited Air Headquarters, Islamabad on Thursday.

On his arrival, the distinguished guest was received by Pakistan Air Force’s (PAF) Chief of the Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan.

He was presented with the guard of honour by a smartly turned out contingent of PAF. Later on, he called on the air chief in his office. Various matters of professional and mutual interest, including regional peace and stability came under discussion during the meeting. The commander-in-chief of Royal Thailand Air Force appreciated the sound professionalism of PAF personnel and its achievements in the war against terrorism.

The air chief briefed the visiting dignitary about ongoing indigenisation projects taken up by PAF in recent years. Both dignitaries agreed to further enhance bilateral cooperation and defence ties to strengthen the existing cordial relations between the two countries in general and two air forces in particular.

The commander-in-chief of Royal Thailand Air Force is visiting Pakistan on the special invitation of PAF.









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## syed_yusuf

GriffinsRule said:


> If you want a replacement for the Mirage, and at that, used aircraft as the replacement, go buy the M2Ks from Qatar and UAE. Im sure, France would love to sell their used inventory as well. Heck go offer the Egyptians to barter new JF-17s for their 18-19 odd Mirages as well. Would still be a better plane than the pos JH-7



Don't forget mirage 2000-5 from Taiwan, they are retiring them as the cost of operation is too high and they cannot keep up with the maintenance. Taiwan air-force have 55 examples. 

if i put the math in
UAE - 68 max
Qatar - 12
TAF - 55
EAF - 15

total 140 examples.


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## denel

syed_yusuf said:


> Don't forget mirage 2000-5 from Taiwan, they are retiring them as the cost of operation is too high and they cannot keep up with the maintenance. Taiwan air-force have 55 examples.
> 
> if i put the math in
> UAE - 68 max
> Qatar - 12
> TAF - 55
> EAF - 15
> 
> total 140 examples.


you will be in the same boat as before. best is to continue to get jhf-17 B3; but jf-7 is a requirement in its own class to project deep standoff capability with M2K does not provide.


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## MIRauf

Indeed, M2K be much better option then the JF-7As dubbed as JF-7E. heck, pick up Tornado F-1/2 from RSAF as they upgrade theirs with the EFT, they are much better low level attack plane, just have the RSAF donate them to PAF.

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## Tank131

GriffinsRule said:


> If you want a replacement for the Mirage, and at that, used aircraft as the replacement, go buy the M2Ks from Qatar and UAE. Im sure, France would love to sell their used inventory as well. Heck go offer the Egyptians to barter new JF-17s for their 18-19 odd Mirages as well. Would still be a better plane than the pos JH-7





syed_yusuf said:


> Don't forget mirage 2000-5 from Taiwan, they are retiring them as the cost of operation is too high and they cannot keep up with the maintenance. Taiwan air-force have 55 examples.
> 
> if i put the math in
> UAE - 68 max
> Qatar - 12
> TAF - 55
> EAF - 15
> 
> total 140 examples.



1. Pakistan doesnt have diplomatic relations with Taiwan. You think they are going to sell warplanes to Pakistan, the closest ally to their greatest enemy (China).

2. M2K doesnt solve the deep strike issue for Pakistan, not. Can it carry the load or appropriate weaponry for the job PN needs from it. It again can carry 2 exocets while JH-7A carries 4 AShM. It is unlikely to be allowed to carry RAAD as France is not likely to give RDY-2 source codes to allow integration. Pakistan has no weapons for M2k in its inventory except old Magic R550 amd exocet (No MICA) and in times of war, spares wont be guaranteed. Also it is a high altitude fighter, not ideal for low altitude deep strike esp in maritimr role, whereas the JH-7A os designed for that. Plus, the m2k will likely be far more expensive.

Regarding Tornado, again, PN has AMRAAM and aim-9 but it has no Sea Eagle antiship missile, and it doesnt have brimstone or storm shadow. And it will be far more expensive than JH-7A. And bet there will be no spares when conflict occurs.

I get that PN wont get this aircraft but it is ideally suited for Pakistans need and its wallet. It will be the best stop-gap until a more advanced fighter can be procured. PN has all the relavant weapons for it and will be able to get it cheaply. It needs to soldier until Azm comes to fruition and allows PN to focus on JF-17s development.


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## Nasr

Tank131 said:


> PAF is in the mode of replacing Mirage, not adding more. They are starting to literally fall from the skies. It would be safer to get a low cost option like JH-7A which could easily soldier for another 10-15 years safely and protect your pilots while at the same time adding capability. People think because it isnt agile. It isnt worth it, but it isnt an air superiority fighter, its a missile truck. It will be as effective at long range as any other 4th gen fighter. Its range and payload are comparable to Su-30. While Mirage can carry 1 exocet and JF-17 can carry 2 C-802A, the JH-7A can carry 2 CM-400AKG AND 2-C-802A all while still carrying 2 SD-10s AND 2 WVR missiles. It could potentially carry 4 RAAD. It is the ideal low altitude strike aircraft for PAF and equipped properly would be a boon in the strike game for PAF. It will buy time for the PAF to re-equip sqn with older aircraft with JF-17 Blk 3 or AZM or whatever you select in a manner that protects your pilots while adding tremendous capacity to protect your coast for relatively cheap.



Well if Mirages are out, then the only logical choice should be JH-7s. It's a pity that we have not made "enough" headway with the Russians. Because if we had or pursue it in the near future. Then the correct type of aircraft to get is Su-34 Fullback. As this aircraft has far greater payload, range and agility than the Mirages, Thunders or JH-7s, in the specified role. So it ought to be Su-34s if Pakistan Air Force is actually serious about offensive capability. Otherwise, JH-7s would be suitable enough to fulfill the role. But, having said that, is there any indication that Pakistan Air Force ever actually considered having a fighter-bomber replacement for Mirages?


----------



## GriffinsRule

Lets just say that had PAF wanted to replace any Mirages with the junk that is JH-7, it would have done so a long time ago. Even before the new and 2nd hand F-16s, PAF did not care to take a 2nd look at that plane, and for good reason.


----------



## Nasr

GriffinsRule said:


> Lets just say that had PAF wanted to replace any Mirages with the junk that is JH-7, it would have done so a long time ago. Even before the new and 2nd hand F-16s, PAF did not care to take a 2nd look at that plane, and for good reason.



Okay, I will bite ... what other options are there, provided Pakistan Air Force actually wakes up one day to this important issue. Which aircraft, in your view, would be suitable for Pakistan Air Force to fulfill such a role or replacement for Mirages?


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## Maxpane

some one's junk can be other one's treasure. just like italian howitzer which are are not value able for them but Pakisfan army buying them cuz its useful for them 
. same is the case of jh 7 we can buy them and improve our numbers and strength instead of wasting our resources . may be it would be helpful to get more f 16.

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## GriffinsRule

Nasr said:


> Okay, I will bite ... what other options are there, provided Pakistan Air Force actually wakes up one day to this important issue. Which aircraft, in your view, would be suitable for Pakistan Air Force to fulfill such a role or replacement for Mirages?



Used or new? If used, then F-16/M2K
If new, then Rafale/Su-30/Typhoon

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## Maxpane

GriffinsRule said:


> Used or new? If used, then F-16/M2K
> If new, then Rafale/Su-30/Typhoon


i think @Tank131 has already given answer for M2k and f 16


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## GriffinsRule

Maxpane said:


> i think @Tank131 has already given answer for M2k and f 16


I dont agree with his answer


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## Maxpane

GriffinsRule said:


> I dont agree with his answer


ok


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## Tank131

GriffinsRule said:


> Used or new? If used, then F-16/M2K
> If new, then Rafale/Su-30/Typhoon



F-16s issue is that while its great for strike role, but PAF F-16 dont have capability for Maritime strike. If the US is willing to give them that capability then by all means. But you still dont have an aircraft capable of nuclear strike. Same goes for M2K.

Rafale and Typhoon would be great, but PAF cant really afford new builds and used Rafales have been upgraded to F3 (soon to be F4). The used Typhoons available for sale are Tranch 1 which have no a2g capabilities or maritime strike capabilities.

Su-30/34/35 would be perfect but agaim they are not, as far as we know, available to Pakistan. If they are, then by all means the Su-34 or Su-35 would be the very best PAF could ask for.

The issue is that there are no good strike options available to PAF amd the JH-7A is actually a good low cost option until PAF can replace it. The very definition of a stop gap is a low cost adequate option capable of fulfilling your needs for a short time.


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## GriffinsRule

Tank131 said:


> F-16s issue is that while its great for strike role, but PAF F-16 dont have capability for Maritime strike. If the US is willing to give them that capability then by all means. But you still dont have an aircraft capable of nuclear strike. Same goes for M2K.
> 
> Rafale and Typhoon would be great, but PAF cant really afford new builds and used Rafales have been upgraded to F3 (soon to be F4). The used Typhoons available for sale are Tranch 1 which have no a2g capabilities or maritime strike capabilities.
> 
> Su-30/34/35 would be perfect but agaim they are not, as far as we know, available to Pakistan. If they are, then by all means the Su-34 or Su-35 would be the very best PAF could ask for.
> 
> The issue is that there are no good strike options available to PAF amd the JH-7A is actually a good low cost option until PAF can replace it. The very definition of a stop gap is a low cost adequate option capable of fulfilling your needs for a short time.



First, Pakistan should push for harpoon capability for its F-16s, given that we already have that available for our P-3C Orions. So its not out of the realm of possibility. Secondly, M2K offers both cruise missiles and anti-ship missiles (which btw we can also using JF-17). Having refuelers negates the range advantage more or less anyways. Besides, for targets really out in the gulf or indian ocean, PN will be hard pressed already to find targets and then to deploy fighters to attack them anyways (but thats another matter). And since we are only talking here about a squadron at most, for maritime roles, we can afford both the Rafale and the Typhoon (upgrading with better A2G than existing is not a hurdle). I am actually not in favor of the Su but whatever the PAF chooses amongst these 3 would more than suffice.

Now for the question of nuclear strike, if we are using Mirages now, JF-17 will then be the primary carrier and it can perform the role better if not just as well as the Mirage 3/5s. And in the next 10-15 years, we will have the next gen aircraft from project AZM to take over that role (Mirages are not going anywhere before then anyways).

As for JH-7 being a stop gap and low cost option, both are fallacies. PAF can't afford to buy stop gap, esp for a crap antiquated fighter, as the operational costs, training, infrastructure etc all have to be accounted for. So no thank you.

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## monitor

Fighter Squadrons of Pakistan Air Force in 2018-19.
PAF Currently operate 19 active combat squadrons alongside four squadrons of Combat Commander School totaling 23




41

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## ziaulislam

Tank131 said:


> F-16s issue is that while its great for strike role, but PAF F-16 dont have capability for Maritime strike. If the US is willing to give them that capability then by all means. But you still dont have an aircraft capable of nuclear strike. Same goes for M2K.
> 
> Rafale and Typhoon would be great, but PAF cant really afford new builds and used Rafales have been upgraded to F3 (soon to be F4). The used Typhoons available for sale are Tranch 1 which have no a2g capabilities or maritime strike capabilities.
> 
> Su-30/34/35 would be perfect but agaim they are not, as far as we know, available to Pakistan. If they are, then by all means the Su-34 or Su-35 would be the very best PAF could ask for.
> 
> The issue is that there are no good strike options available to PAF amd the JH-7A is actually a good low cost option until PAF can replace it. The very definition of a stop gap is a low cost adequate option capable of fulfilling your needs for a short time.


Trench 1 are going through upgrade standard 3 that will give them basic A2G equipment like precision strike and cruise missiles ..
So it is now a full scale MR fighter


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## MIRauf

If PAF were to go for JF-7s they would have a while back to replace the A-5s and they didn't. It seems PAF was not interested or didn't see it good enough then. Now if you are to add J-16 style or similar Avionics to make it suitable for PAF / PN needs then it will take time to test, months / years. Time to integrate in PAF, write new syllabus, support and maintenance along with pilot training.

PAF might be better off with studying and looking into height (variable / adjustable ) main & front gear, similar to good o'l A-4 Skyhawk. It just might fix your ground clearance for RAAD deployment, it may not satisfy your ( number of weapon load that you may desire to carry. ) Its a penny for your thoughts.

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## ziaulislam

monitor said:


> Fighter Squadrons of Pakistan Air Force in 2018-19.
> PAF Currently operate 19 active combat squadrons alongside four squadrons of Combat Commander School totaling 23
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 41


Priority is to get rid of the 4 f-7s squardons..i believe even the f7 pG will go before anything else..than you have 5 mirage sq apart from two for strategic strike rest will be retired too..whther they will be retired before PG is not known..

in short PAF is in need of 150 fighters(9sq) in next 5 years..it desperately needs couple of cheap used/EDA/MLUs f16 squardons so that jf-17 program is not rushed

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## jupiter2007

ziaulislam said:


> Priority is to get rid of the 4 f-7s squardons..i believe even the f7 pG will go before anything else..than you have 5 mirage sq apart from two for strategic strike rest will be retired too..whther they will be retired before PG is not known..
> 
> in short PAF is in need of 150 fighters(9sq) in next 5 years..it desperately needs couple of cheap used/EDA/MLUs f16 squardons so that jf-17 program is not rushed



USA, Turkey and Israel will retire older F-16 with in 2 years.


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## ziaulislam

jupiter2007 said:


> USA, Turkey and Israel will retire older F-16 with in 2 years.


plenty of f16 all over the place, whther usa will allow used f16 is the real question

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## xbat

jupiter2007 said:


> USA, Turkey and Israel will retire older F-16 with in 2 years.


Turkey doesnt have a plan to retire any F16s, instead Block30s will get upgrade and will serve more than 10 years for TurAf.

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## jupiter2007

ziaulislam said:


> plenty of f16 all over the place, whther usa will allow used f16 is the real question



You are right.. Jordan, Netherlands, Denmark, Norway, Portugal, Belgium, Greece and Poland. I think Jordan took delivery of F-16s from Netherlands.
Singapore announced last year that they are looking to replace the aged F-16s in next 5 years.



xbat said:


> Turkey doesnt have a plan to retire any F16s, instead Block30s will get upgrade and will serve more than 10 years for TurAf.



If not Turkey, we can get Israeli F-16 via Turkey.

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## Windjammer

*T-33, B-57 and F-6 with a lineup of F-86s in the background, Masroor AB 1980s.*

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## GriffinsRule

jupiter2007 said:


> You are right.. Jordan, Netherlands, Denmark, Norway, Portugal, Belgium, Greece and Poland. I think Jordan took delivery of F-16s from Netherlands.
> Singapore announced last year that they are looking to replace the aged F-16s in next 5 years.
> 
> 
> 
> If not Turkey, we can get Israeli F-16 via Turkey.



Good joke

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## jupiter2007

GriffinsRule said:


> Good joke


Which part?

It’s acceptable to get F-16s from Jordan who acquired Dutch F-16s. 
But it’s not acceptable from Turkey, if Turkey acquires them from Israel.


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## GriffinsRule

jupiter2007 said:


> Which part?
> 
> It’s acceptable to get F-16s from Jordan who acquired Dutch F-16s.
> But it’s not acceptable from Turkey, if Turkey acquires them from Israel.



Yes, since we ourselves tried to get European F-16s back in the day. And the joke part is where you assume Turkey will buy them from Israel in order to sell them to us ... btw their relations are in the dumpster and second, why would we even consider buying Israeli used-up machines? There is no shortage of them within the US

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## jupiter2007

ziaulislam said:


> Priority is to get rid of the 4 f-7s squardons..i believe even the f7 pG will go before anything else..than you have 5 mirage sq apart from two for strategic strike rest will be retired too..whther they will be retired before PG is not known..
> 
> in short PAF is in need of 150 fighters(9sq) in next 5 years..it desperately needs couple of cheap used/EDA/MLUs f16 squardons so that jf-17 program is not rushed



What role Yak-130 can play in PAF?


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## denel

GriffinsRule said:


> First, Pakistan should push for harpoon capability for its F-16s, given that we already have that available for our P-3C Orions. So its not out of the realm of possibility. Secondly, M2K offers both cruise missiles and anti-ship missiles (which btw we can also using JF-17). Having refuelers negates the range advantage more or less anyways. Besides, for targets really out in the gulf or indian ocean, PN will be hard pressed already to find targets and then to deploy fighters to attack them anyways (but thats another matter). And since we are only talking here about a squadron at most, for maritime roles, we can afford both the Rafale and the Typhoon (upgrading with better A2G than existing is not a hurdle). I am actually not in favor of the Su but whatever the PAF chooses amongst these 3 would more than suffice.
> 
> Now for the question of nuclear strike, if we are using Mirages now, JF-17 will then be the primary carrier and it can perform the role better if not just as well as the Mirage 3/5s. And in the next 10-15 years, we will have the next gen aircraft from project AZM to take over that role (Mirages are not going anywhere before then anyways).
> 
> As for JH-7 being a stop gap and low cost option, both are fallacies. PAF can't afford to buy stop gap, esp for a crap antiquated fighter, as the operational costs, training, infrastructure etc all have to be accounted for. So no thank you.



I am not agreeing with your thought for Jh-7 as a stop gap measure. Between the nightmare of bandaging is required to keep the M3/5s going; JH-7 brings in the credible role that is needed for a carrier for SOW - it is penny wise pound foolish mentality. We are not talking of a huge amount of squadrons, just 2 is all that is needed - just like Mirage 4 provided.

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## ghazi52

Federal Minister for Aviation & Privatisation Mohammedmian Soomro met with Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan.

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## fatman17

Revealing first time, F16 Blk15 EMLU belonging to the newly created No.29 Aggressors squadron. If a separate squadron and not part of CCS then It's 5th squadron of F16 in PAF reaching grand total of 20 combat squadrons (excluding CCS) https://t.co/WnVJJlZbHA

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## hassan1



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## Maxpane

*PAF war hero WC Tariq Habib passed away in Islamabad*
*14 Feb, 2019*






*SHARES*




*ISLAMABAD: Wing Commander (retd.) Tariq Habib Khan, Pak Airforce’s war hero who showed extraordinary gallantry in the Indo-Pak wars of 1965 and 1971, passed away in Islamabad after a prolonged illness on Wednesday.*

READ MORE:Saudi Crown Prince visit to Pakistan, schedule of high profile visit activities revealed
The celebrated war hero was also a decorated airman. The government of Pakistan had conferred upon him the Sitara-e-Jurat (Star of Courage), which is the third highest military award of Pakistan.

His funeral prayers were offered at Pakistan Airforce’s Nur Khan Airbase in Chaklala. A huge number of war heroes, civil and military personalities and people belonging to different walks of life attended the funeral rites.


READ MORE:Commander Islamic Military Alliance General (R) Raheel Sharif calls on PM Imran Khan
[image: Tariq Habib Khan, Wing Commander, Pakistan Airforce,]

[image: Wing Commander, Tariq Habib Khan, Pakistan Airforce,]

READ MORE:Commander Islamic Military Alliance calls on COAS General Bajwa at GHQ
He was laid to rest in PAFcemetery at Chaklala with full military honours.

Later, Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan expressed his condolences on the sad demise of the nation’s hero.

The air force chief said that Khan was an extraordinary fighter and a patriot, whose services for the country would never be forgotten


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## Raider 21

Maxpane said:


> *PAF war hero WC Tariq Habib passed away in Islamabad*
> *14 Feb, 2019*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *SHARES*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *ISLAMABAD: Wing Commander (retd.) Tariq Habib Khan, Pak Airforce’s war hero who showed extraordinary gallantry in the Indo-Pak wars of 1965 and 1971, passed away in Islamabad after a prolonged illness on Wednesday.*
> 
> READ MORE:Saudi Crown Prince visit to Pakistan, schedule of high profile visit activities revealed
> The celebrated war hero was also a decorated airman. The government of Pakistan had conferred upon him the Sitara-e-Jurat (Star of Courage), which is the third highest military award of Pakistan.
> 
> His funeral prayers were offered at Pakistan Airforce’s Nur Khan Airbase in Chaklala. A huge number of war heroes, civil and military personalities and people belonging to different walks of life attended the funeral rites.
> 
> 
> READ MORE:Commander Islamic Military Alliance General (R) Raheel Sharif calls on PM Imran Khan
> [image: Tariq Habib Khan, Wing Commander, Pakistan Airforce,]
> 
> [image: Wing Commander, Tariq Habib Khan, Pakistan Airforce,]
> 
> READ MORE:Commander Islamic Military Alliance calls on COAS General Bajwa at GHQ
> He was laid to rest in PAFcemetery at Chaklala with full military honours.
> 
> Later, Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan expressed his condolences on the sad demise of the nation’s hero.
> 
> The air force chief said that Khan was an extraordinary fighter and a patriot, whose services for the country would never be forgotten


A legendary fighter pilot. One of the best the service has ever had.

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## Trailer23

*Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi in Germany...*

FM has meeting with *09 US Senators* and *10 US Congressmen* tomorrow (15th of Feb).

Not exactly PAF related, but those are the guys who are decision makers in terms of sales of defense related. Now i'm not saying that Block 70's are around the corner, because some our brothers on this forum are against the F-16 and/or assistance from the US (in general). However, we still need parts for our aging F-16's which we can't just dump and we certainly could use the upgrades - too.

Check timecode - *11:00*

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## Windjammer

Knuckles said:


> A legendary fighter pilot. One of the best the service has ever had.


Being awarded SJ by Nur Khan after 1965 war.

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## Readerdefence

Knuckles said:


> A legendary fighter pilot. One of the best the service has ever had.


Hi knuckles just a little off topic Q 
These legendary war/ fighter pilot heroes usually got retired as a wing commander or as a air commodore can this be due to 
1 favouritism 
2 lost their touch time of promotion 
3 or anything specific according to the PAF promotion criteria 
Thank you

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## Raider 21

Readerdefence said:


> Hi knuckles just a little off topic Q
> These legendary war/ fighter pilot heroes usually got retired as a wing commander or as a air commodore can this be due to
> 1 favouritism
> 2 lost their touch time of promotion
> 3 or anything specific according to the PAF promotion criteria
> Thank you


Multiple reasons. But the public will always have their own theories to make it newsworthy.

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## MastanKhan

Readerdefence said:


> Hi knuckles just a little off topic Q
> These legendary war/ fighter pilot heroes usually got retired as a wing commander or as a air commodore can this be due to
> 1 favouritism
> 2 lost their touch time of promotion
> 3 or anything specific according to the PAF promotion criteria
> Thank you



Hi,

You already answered the question---.

You know what incompetent people have---as they can compete against the competent---they have developed a knack to impress the seniors at how good they are---.

They know how to play with the psyche of the commander in commander and other selectors---.

Where as high performer is busy fighting a bigger enemy in the air---the low performer is as busy training his self to get promoted---.

See---you can either be this---or you can either be that----.

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## Readerdefence

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> You already answered the question---.
> 
> You know what incompetent people have---as they can compete against the competent---they have developed a knack to impress the seniors at how good they are---.
> 
> They know how to play with the psyche of the commander in commander and other selectors---.
> 
> Where as high performer is busy fighting a bigger enemy in the air---the low performer is as busy training his self to get promoted---.
> 
> See---you can either be this---or you can either be that----.


Hi Mk thx for your reply but you think it’s still going on or there is some improvement as compare to what it was before I hope there is some betterment now what it use to be 25-30 yrs before 
Obviously not at the high end of getting something beyond f16 saga 
Thank you


----------



## MastanKhan

Readerdefence said:


> Hi Mk thx for your reply but you think it’s still going on or there is some improvement as compare to what it was before I hope there is some betterment now what it use to be 25-30 yrs before
> Obviously not at the high end of getting something beyond f16 saga
> Thank you



Hi,

It is from bad to worse---.


----------



## Raider 21

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> It is from bad to worse---.


Other way around actually.


----------



## ziaulislam

Trailer23 said:


> *Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi in Germany...*
> 
> FM has meeting with *09 US Senators* and *10 US Congressmen* tomorrow (15th of Feb).
> 
> Not exactly PAF related, but those are the guys who are decision makers in terms of sales of defense related. Now i'm not saying that Block 70's are around the corner, because some our brothers on this forum are against the F-16 and/or assistance from the US (in general). However, we still need parts for our aging F-16's which we can't just dump and we certainly could use the upgrades - too.
> 
> Check timecode - *11:00*


most important person is pompeo, and upcoming def sec. if they allow pakistan can get alot of surplus stock/EDA from USA/thrid countries

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## mingle

ziaulislam said:


> most important person is pompeo, and upcoming def sec. if they allow pakistan can get alot of surplus stock/EDA from USA/thrid countries


Also US stock in Afghanistan he met yesterday jhon Kerry, Joe Lieberman, lindsey Graham I recognize let's hope we can get Hand on theior surplus material.


----------



## ziaulislam

mingle said:


> Also US stock in Afghanistan he met yesterday jhon Kerry, Joe Lieberman, lindsey Graham I recognize let's hope we can get Hand on their surplus material.


block 70 doesnt matter, we dont have the money, the federal govt is bankrupted after 18 amendmant, the budget starts with -600b (minus), govt will not be able to balance it book till until 2021-2022

punjab govt development project was bigger than federal govt budget!

to get budget books balanced govt needs atleast 3 trillion in additional tax revenues. this is achievable if reforms done in next 3-4 years

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## MastanKhan

Knuckles said:


> Other way around actually.



If you say so---.


----------



## Raider 21

MastanKhan said:


> If you say so---.


I know so.

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## Path-Finder

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1097181329412771840

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## MastanKhan

Knuckles said:


> I know so.



Hi,

Ok---then I will agree with you---with caution---.

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## Raider 21

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Ok---then I will agree with you---with caution---.


Cheers!!!


----------



## fatman17

Maxpane said:


> *PAF war hero WC Tariq Habib passed away in Islamabad*
> *14 Feb, 2019*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *SHARES*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *ISLAMABAD: Wing Commander (retd.) Tariq Habib Khan, Pak Airforce’s war hero who showed extraordinary gallantry in the Indo-Pak wars of 1965 and 1971, passed away in Islamabad after a prolonged illness on Wednesday.*
> 
> READ MORE:Saudi Crown Prince visit to Pakistan, schedule of high profile visit activities revealed
> The celebrated war hero was also a decorated airman. The government of Pakistan had conferred upon him the Sitara-e-Jurat (Star of Courage), which is the third highest military award of Pakistan.
> 
> His funeral prayers were offered at Pakistan Airforce’s Nur Khan Airbase in Chaklala. A huge number of war heroes, civil and military personalities and people belonging to different walks of life attended the funeral rites.
> 
> 
> READ MORE:Commander Islamic Military Alliance General (R) Raheel Sharif calls on PM Imran Khan
> [image: Tariq Habib Khan, Wing Commander, Pakistan Airforce,]
> 
> [image: Wing Commander, Tariq Habib Khan, Pakistan Airforce,]
> 
> READ MORE:Commander Islamic Military Alliance calls on COAS General Bajwa at GHQ
> He was laid to rest in PAFcemetery at Chaklala with full military honours.
> 
> Later, Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan expressed his condolences on the sad demise of the nation’s hero.
> 
> The air force chief said that Khan was an extraordinary fighter and a patriot, whose services for the country would never be forgotten


RIP


----------



## fatman17

Escorts for MBS

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## Trailer23

Guys, you need to hear this question raised by the Saudi journalist from *Al Arabiya English*...

Q. *"Will we (Saudi Arabia) be seeing the JF-17 in the Saudi Air Force, maybe?"*

Check timecode - *15:35*





​


----------



## Path-Finder



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## Trailer23

Good God, what is the obsession we and the arab world have with Gold. Look at that frame?!!

Even in the IK vid above..., just look at the chair?


----------



## ghazi52

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1097853472660180992


----------



## Path-Finder

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1098391214829723649


----------



## Maxpane

Path-Finder said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1098391214829723649


so still its im designing phase???????


----------



## GriffinsRule

Maxpane said:


> so still its im designing phase???????


 2017 tweet ...


----------



## Maxpane

GriffinsRule said:


> 2017 tweet ...


ohhh thats okay. thank you sir

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## jupiter2007

Maxpane said:


> ohhh thats okay. thank you sir



Mostly likely it will be ready in May 2019


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## Maxpane

jupiter2007 said:


> Mostly likely it will be ready in May 2019


ap k mun main ghee shakar. hope its true


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## SABRE

I don't know if this has been brought up but, as per Alan Warnes, the Chinese have developed a launch pylon, the _Stand-alone Weapon & Fire Control System_ (SWFCS), which can be integrated on the Russian & Western fighter jets in order to enable them to fire Chinese weapons. If the system is effective it could mean a lot for PAF as well in its potential future acquisitions. Its already been tested on Su-27.

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## mingle

SABRE said:


> I don't know if this has been brought up but, as per Alan Warnes, the Chinese have developed a launch pylon, the _Stand-alone Weapon & Fire Control System_ (SWFCS), which can be integrated on the Russian & Western fighter jets in order to enable them to fire Chinese weapons. If the system is effective it could mean a lot for PAF as well in its potential future acquisitions. Its already been tested on Su-27.


Daniyal u mean we integrate them in F16 or mirages or future western platforms?


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## khanasifm




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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

SABRE said:


> I don't know if this has been brought up but, as per Alan Warnes, the Chinese have developed a launch pylon, the _Stand-alone Weapon & Fire Control System_ (SWFCS), which can be integrated on the Russian & Western fighter jets in order to enable them to fire Chinese weapons. If the system is effective it could mean a lot for PAF as well in its potential future acquisitions. Its already been tested on Su-27.


The wireless remote basically means, in theory, you could pair this to the F-16s (to fire Ra'ad and REK), but then remove them when someone checks. It takes care of the stand-off/air-to-surface strike issue for most platforms, but I don't think it'll do much for radar-guided AAMs or AShMs *unless *the targeting info is passed by a third-party platform, e.g., AEW&C or (if we want to push it) a radar in a pod.

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## MastanKhan

@Aasimkhan 

Your quote " In the end it is the man behind the gun who matters. Result of the battle will be decided by the ones who are ready to go the extra mile "---.

I am surprised that you are so illiterate about modern warfare and modern weapons---.

Modern weapons have artificial intelligence---. The artificial intelligence will compensate for any shortcomings of the pilot---. A pilot of a modern aircraft is a vary capable pilot by default---.

Enemy pilots have more experience on their SU30's and M2K's---than pakistani pilots have on their JF17's---.

So forget about the myth about the man behind the machine---it is only to please the pakistani fanboys---.

To think that the enemy is a fool and his pilots inferior make you the enemy of your motherland---.

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## BERKEKHAN2

khanasifm said:


> View attachment 541578


Chinese systems on eurofighter??


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## AsifIjaz

@MastanKhan sb..
I have gr8 respect for you and your lust for knowledge and education in a field that is not your profession but your hobby or obsession..
But its a humble request to tone down your rhetoric and the way you write your posts. One is cringed to read posts where another fellow member is belittled or called out for his remark, understanding or way of expression. 
Think of others as juniors, development in progress or students. Why are you always volatile sir... Why put off the naive and the beginners. I urge you that if you think you know much then kindly share the knowledge without derogatory remarks. Its disturbing to say the least.
Good day sir

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## MastanKhan

AsifIjaz said:


> @MastanKhan sb..
> I have gr8 respect for you and your lust for knowledge and education in a field that is not your profession but your hobby or obsession..
> But its a humble request to tone down your rhetoric and the way you write your posts. One is cringed to read posts where another fellow member is belittled or called out for his remark, understanding or way of expression.
> Think of others as juniors, development in progress or students. Why are you always volatile sir... Why put off the naive and the beginners. I urge you that if you think you know much then kindly share the knowledge without derogatory remarks. Its disturbing to say the least.
> Good day sir



Hi,

When all posters are singing the same tune of "man behind the machine " mantra---they need to be given a wake up call---.

This is my 13th + year on this forum---and I have been writing about this B S of man behind the machine for that much time here---.

Is there a some kind of learning disability that young pakistanis are born with or are they eternally illiterate of learning---. Have they no concept how AI has taken over the technology---where machies do most of the owrk for the " man behind the machine " to compensate for much of the short comings---.

You must re-asses your views---. Pakistanis never learn with kind words---.

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## AsifIjaz

Sir, if you are on a crusade against slow learners then probably this aint the right forum or dare i say decorum. Why are you hell bent on proving them wrong and hammering in what you think is right, which infact may actually be right. Why do you think it is your duty or obligation to hammer in your point of view (which again is probably right).
If someone does not want to learn via the easy way even after a few reminders, let him be as eventually he will come around in time. If 13 years didnt dent the knowledge learning curve, if it hasnt led to a spike then trust me 30 more won't make a difference either as its simply not working. Having said that please let me say it again that i have nothing but utmost respect for your insatiable and resolute thirst for knowledge as this is getting rarer now. You have a knack of remebering everything as per ur profession or observations as i believe it helps you to remmeber it and then reproduce it later as well. But having said that i would like to admit that i do like to read naive comments and comments which are baffling to say the least as they also help me to reallign my thought process as well. Thats the learning curve or process of majority of us out here. 

What i am afraid off and what i guess will definitely happen over time is that the standard of posting and expressing one's views will go down which will itself bring down learning , ingenuity and will gradually put off members who actually know something... Not only from this forum but dare i say from this forum because of yourself and your unyielding quest to educate all.

Think about it sir, what you have in your hand is not a whip or a hammer.... its a 2 edge sword and the forum will eventually bleed along with the stiff-necked, bruished or lacerated colleagues of mine.

Good day sir


MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> When all posters are singing the same tune of "man behind the machine " mantra---they need to be given a wake up call---.
> 
> This is my 13th + year on this forum---and I have been writing about this B S of man behind the machine for that much time here---.
> 
> Is there a some kind of learning disability that young pakistanis are born with or are they eternally illiterate of learning---. Have they no concept how AI has taken over the technology---where machies do most of the owrk for the " man behind the machine " to compensate for much of the short comings---.
> 
> You must re-asses your views---. Pakistanis never learn with kind words---.


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## hassan1

PAF Auster J-5F Aiglet Trainer

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## Aasimkhan

MastanKhan said:


> @Aasimkhan
> 
> Your quote " In the end it is the man behind the gun who matters. Result of the battle will be decided by the ones who are ready to go the extra mile "---.
> 
> I am surprised that you are so illiterate about modern warfare and modern weapons---.
> 
> Modern weapons have artificial intelligence---. The artificial intelligence will compensate for any shortcomings of the pilot---. A pilot of a modern aircraft is a vary capable pilot by default---.
> 
> Enemy pilots have more experience on their SU30's and M2K's---than pakistani pilots have on their JF17's---.
> 
> So forget about the myth about the man behind the machine---it is only to please the pakistani fanboys---.
> 
> To think that the enemy is a fool and his pilots inferior make you the enemy of your motherland---.


Mr Mastan don't talk to me in general terms regarding smart weapons and artificial intelligence. Be specific tell me where SU30 and M2K is superior to our jf17. You can start from BVR regime towards WVR and staffing. Go ahead shoot

Mr 13 plus years of key board warrior there are people who have spent more than 35 years in ops rooms, those who have shot down these planes from the skies, what you have seen in the movies or heard or read in fiction books these people have done on ground with flying colurs. A person who thinks man behind the gun will be replaced is akin to an ostrich who has buried his head in the sand


MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> When all posters are singing the same tune of "man behind the machine " mantra---they need to be given a wake up call---.
> 
> This is my 13th + year on this forum---and I have been writing about this B S of man behind the machine for that much time here---.
> 
> Is there a some kind of learning disability that young pakistanis are born with or are they eternally illiterate of learning---. Have they no concept how AI has taken over the technology---where machies do most of the owrk for the " man behind the machine " to compensate for much of the short comings---.
> 
> You must re-asses your views---. Pakistanis never learn with kind words---.


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## Mentee

Aasimkhan said:


> Mr Mastan don't talk to me in general terms regarding smart weapons and artificial intelligence. Be specific tell me where SU30 and M2K is superior to our jf17. You can start from BVR regime towards WVR and staffing. Go ahead shoot
> 
> Mr 13 plus years of key board warrior there are people who have spent more than 35 years in ops rooms, those who have shot down these planes from the skies, what you have seen in the movies or heard or tea books these people have done on ground with flying colurs. A person who thinks man behind the gun will be replaced is akin to an ostrich who has buried his head in the sand



Let's for a second forget about the radar, jamming capability and loiter time of the su30's and stick to the payload of both these machines. Su30 could carry a mix of 4 wvr's and and 8 bvr's. now there's a high probability that Indians won't be engaging us In a dog fight so what's left is the bvr arena - - - - - - - - -.


An Su30 gets airborne and fires a volley of 3-4 bvr's flying on a forward operating airbase near pak border cities like Lahore etc and then scoot back deep inside India - - - - - - - - - while the Thunder has the "luxury" of firing only 2 . Now tell us which aircraft's chances are high to score a hit ?

In this case your man behind the machine theory would crash somewhere in Pakistan if not already blown into pieces in the air .

Another example would be of a burger teenager armed with a Gatling gun pitched against a marine with a standard m-4 rifle - - - - - - - I won't bet a single penny on the mere jazba and training of that marine .

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## GriffinsRule

Mentee said:


> Let's for a second forget about the radar, jamming capability and loiter time of the su30's and stick to the payload of both these machines. Su30 could carry a mix of 4 wvr's and and 8 bvr's. now there's a high probability that Indians won't be engaging us In a dog fight so what's left is the bvr arena - - - - - - - - -.
> 
> 
> An Su30 gets airborne and fires a volley of 3-4 bvr's flying on a forward operating airbase near pak border cities like Lahore etc and then scoot back deep inside India - - - - - - - - - while the Thunder has the "luxury" of firing only 2 . Now tell us which aircraft's chances are high to score a hit ?
> 
> In this case your man behind the machine theory would crash somewhere in Pakistan if not already blown into pieces in the air .
> 
> Another example would be of a burger teenager armed with a Gatling gun pitched against a marine with a standard m-4 rifle - - - - - - - I won't bet a single penny on the mere jazba and training of that marine .


 
How close does the Indian Su-30 have to be to shoot his 4 missile load, and if he is turning back, how are the missiles going to be guided to the target? 
PS Man behind the machine matters when the pilot retains his cool and follows his training and procedures to defeat the incoming BVR missiles. So yes it does matter. Put the same man in a better machine and you just increase his effectiveness. Put a shitty pilot on a Su-30 and he would land his jet in some PAF FOB from fear of getting shot down lol.

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## Mentee

GriffinsRule said:


> How close does the Indian Su-30 have to be to shoot his 4 missile load, and if he is turning back, how are the missiles going to be guided to the target?



There have been many technological breakthroughs in the field of air weaponry like awacs guiding the missiles, bvr's own guidance system - - - - - -.

Moreover Do keep in mind the su's loiter time .


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## CriticalThought

Mentee said:


> Let's for a second forget about the radar, jamming capability and loiter time of the su30's and stick to the payload of both these machines. Su30 could carry a mix of 4 wvr's and and 8 bvr's. now there's a high probability that Indians won't be engaging us In a dog fight so what's left is the bvr arena - - - - - - - - -.
> 
> 
> An Su30 gets airborne and fires a volley of 3-4 bvr's flying on a forward operating airbase near pak border cities like Lahore etc and then scoot back deep inside India - - - - - - - - - while the Thunder has the "luxury" of firing only 2 . Now tell us which aircraft's chances are high to score a hit ?
> 
> In this case your man behind the machine theory would crash somewhere in Pakistan if not already blown into pieces in the air .
> 
> Another example would be of a burger teenager armed with a Gatling gun pitched against a marine with a standard m-4 rifle - - - - - - - I won't bet a single penny on the mere jazba and training of that marine .



This is highly technically inaccurate.

This is how BVR engagements happen in real life. The Flanker has the option to fire multiple BVRs to increase probability of kill on one target, or engage multiple targets. From the onset, man behind machine will matter. Other than keeping cool in tense situation and keeping one's wits about, it takes years of experience to assess the situation in air and form the correct mental picture of the battle. Decision needs to be made on whether own radar will be used or ground controller guidance. If all of a sudden there is complete radio silence, is it a result of EM jamming, or equipment failure, or air controller taken out by enemy action. Who is friend vs foe? But most importantly, which bogey to prioritize? Which accompanying friendly should engage which enemy aircraft? Should the formation spread, or remain tight? All of this needs to be decided within seconds. And a mistake in any one can prove fatal. You have been fed wrong info about the nature of aerial warfare. It is not about blindly shooting some missiles and turning tail. That would make IAF the laughing stock of the world.

Btw, I haven't even covered the engagement itself yet. That's an entirely different can of worms.



Mentee said:


> There's has been many technological breakthroughs in the field of air weaponry like awacs guiding the missiles, bvr's own guidance system - - - - - -.
> 
> Moreover Do keep in mind the su's loiter time .



Sure. It still doesn't mean the Flanker can simply shoot and scoot. If he has AEWACS guidance, then the enemy also has jamming and decoys.


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## Aasimkhan

Mentee said:


> Let's for a second forget about the radar, jamming capability and loiter time of the su30's and stick to the payload of both these machines. Su30 could carry a mix of 4 wvr's and and 8 bvr's. now there's a high probability that Indians won't be engaging us In a dog fight so what's left is the bvr arena - - - - - - - - -.
> 
> 
> An Su30 gets airborne and fires a volley of 3-4 bvr's flying on a forward operating airbase near pak border cities like Lahore etc and then scoot back deep inside India - - - - - - - - - while the Thunder has the "luxury" of firing only 2 . Now tell us which aircraft's chances are high to score a hit ?
> 
> In this case your man behind the machine theory would crash somewhere in Pakistan if not already blown into pieces in the air .
> 
> Another example would be of a burger teenager armed with a Gatling gun pitched against a marine with a standard m-4 rifle - - - - - - - I won't bet a single penny on the mere jazba and training of that marine .


R u a fool? Either you are taking too much charas or you are a moron
Do you know the RCS of SU 30 and that of a JF17? And in BVR a radar and missile with greater range will shoot first. Kill first, number of BVRs is of secondary importance. Do you know the range of missiles on thunder and those on SU 30 ? That's why I always say an idiot with a key board is a most dangerous man


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## Mentee

Aasimkhan said:


> R u a fool? Either you are taking too much charas or you are a moro



Its needless to showoff your upbringing on an online forum. Got no issues if you keep it to your house hold. 



Aasimkhan said:


> in BVR a radar and missile with greater range will shoot first.



And which jet has these attributes? 



Aasimkhan said:


> Do you know the range of missiles on thunder and those on SU 30 ?



are you presuming that the paf gonna engage from 100 - 110 km away from the Indian border and not near or in the Indian airspace ?



CriticalThought said:


> Sure. It still doesn't mean the Flanker can simply shoot and scoot. If he has AEWACS guidance, then the enemy also has jamming and decoys.



The crux of the matter is that we have a very short legged airforce and woefully ill equipped for an enemy the size of india


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## CriticalThought

Aasimkhan said:


> R u a fool? Either you are taking too much charas or you are a moron
> Do you know the RCS of SU 30 and that of a JF17? And in BVR a radar and missile with greater range will shoot first. Kill first, number of BVRs is of secondary importance. Do you know the range of missiles on thunder and those on SU 30 ? That's why I always say an idiot with a key board is a most dangerous man



Give others the respect you expect for yourself. We are all Pakistanis and now is the time to unite, not divide.



Mentee said:


> The crux of the matter is that we have a very short legged airforce and woefully ill equipped for an enemy the size of india



Even with an aircraft that could theoretically travel from one end of India to the other and back, you would first need to take out the defences in between. We don't necessarily need an aircraft with endurance. We do need a credible 360 degree attack capability against India. The same can be achieved through airbases. This means leveraging geo-political power.


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## Mentee

Pakistani Nation, at every level, is suffering form the Stockholm syndrome. No one dare question the credibility of the system let alone revamping it - - - - - -.


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## Aasimkhan

Mentee said:


> Its needless to showoff your upbringing on an online forum. Got no issues if you keep it to your house hold.
> 
> 
> 
> And which jet has these attributes?
> 
> 
> 
> are you presuming that the paf gonna engage from 100 - 110 km away from the Indian border and not near or in the Indian airspace ?
> 
> 
> 
> The crux of the matter is that we have a very short legged airforce and woefully ill equipped for an enemy the size of india


This shows your inadequate understanding of warfare. After the first violation there will be no respect for international border till the cease fire. Weapons will be used at their full range.
I did not.mention any thing about.your family. As a matter of fact you exposed yours when you mentioned mine. I was just talking of your inadequate understanding of the unfolding of the air battle.


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## Ultima Thule

Aasimkhan said:


> This shows your inadequate understanding of warfare. After the first violation there will be no respect for international border till the cease fire. Weapons will be used at their full range.
> I did not.mention any thing about.your family. As a matter of fact you exposed yours when you mentioned mine. I was just talking of your inadequate understanding of the unfolding of the air battle.


woh woh woh, calm down bro, you knows nothing about modern Air battles, no BVR or air to ground weapons is used at extreme ranges, this decrease weapons PK (probability of kill) to increase PK weapons fire at relatively closer this called NEZ (NO ESCAPE ZONE) especially for BVR, for example SD-10 has range of 100 km but that's doesn't means jet fires SD-10 at 100 Km but in no escape zone 70 to 80 km from the target to increase PK, and do research on topic before you post, its a sincere advice @Aasimkhan

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## maverick1977

4 to 5 sq of J16 can bring balance of air power in Sub continent.

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## Aasimkhan

pakistanipower said:


> woh woh woh, calm down bro, you knows nothing about modern Air battles, no BVR or air to ground weapons is used at extreme ranges, this decrease weapons PK (probability of kill) to increase PK weapons fire at relatively closer this called NEZ (NO ESCAPE ZONE) especially for BVR, for example SD-10 has range of 100 km but that's doesn't means jet fires SD-10 at 100 Km but in no escape zone 70 to 80 km from the target to increase PK, and do research on topic before you post, its a sincere advice @Aasimkhan


I didn't say extreme ranges, I said maximum range. If you know so much about missiles then I am sure you know the difference as well. Secondly while you have applied your theory on Pakistanis missiles the same won't apply in the indian side? If range of Pakistani missile will be decreased by 30% then you will not like to apply the same to the indian side?
Thirdly NEZ is most importantly effected by the speed of the missile. A faster missile even if fired from a distance will have greater no escape zone as compared to a slower one even if fired at a closer range. This is just one factor of determination of NEZ. There are many others which I will keep telling.you as you grow older and maturer in missile craft.


pakistanipower said:


> woh woh woh, calm down bro, you knows nothing about modern Air battles, no BVR or air to ground weapons is used at extreme ranges, this decrease weapons PK (probability of kill) to increase PK weapons fire at relatively closer this called NEZ (NO ESCAPE ZONE) especially for BVR, for example SD-10 has range of 100 km but that's doesn't means jet fires SD-10 at 100 Km but in no escape zone 70 to 80 km from the target to increase PK, and do research on topic before you post, its a sincere advice @Aasimkhan


Bhai Jan now apply the same theory on the indian side also. Net advantage will remain as I mentioned. How can you decrease the range of one side by 30% one sidedly?


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## Ultima Thule

Aasimkhan said:


> I didn't say extreme ranges, I said maximum range. If you know so much about missiles then I am sure you know the difference as well. Secondly while you have applied your theory on Pakistanis missiles the same won't apply in the indian side? If range of Pakistani missile will be decreased by 30% then you will not like to apply the same to the indian side?
> Thirdly NEZ is most importantly effected by the speed of the missile. A faster missile even if fired from a distance will have greater no escape zone as compared to a slower one even if fired at a closer range. This is just one factor of determination of NEZ. There are many others which I will keep telling.you as you grow older and maturer in missile craft.
> 
> Bhai Jan now apply the same theory on the indian side also. Net advantage will remain as I mentioned. How can you decrease the range of one side by 30% one sidedly?


Dont fool yourself bro both are same meaning @Aasimkhan  and India has longer range BVR then Pakistan R-27/R-77 etc etc, this second para shows you immaturity you have BVR missile has fixed speed but altitude factor reduce its range @Aasimkhan

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## Aasimkhan

Lol, see you are acting on the old dictum if you can't solve the issue then confuse the issue. Addition of new factors is this typical example.


pakistanipower said:


> Dont fool yourself bro both are same meaning @Aasimkhan  and India has longer range BVR then Pakistan R-27/R-77 etc etc, this second para shows you immaturity you have BVR missile has fixed speed but altitude factor reduce its range @Aasimkhan


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## Ultima Thule

Aasimkhan said:


> Lol, see you are acting on the old dictum if you can't solve the issue then confuse the issue. Addition of new factors is this typical example.


your pretending to be an expert but you're not, i know better than you @Aasimkhan

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## Path-Finder

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1100074652293058561

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## Zulfiqar

Path-Finder said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1100074652293058561




That is over isb on 14 Aug IIRC.

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## gambit

Aasimkhan said:


> Thirdly NEZ is most importantly effected by the speed of the missile. A faster missile even if fired from a distance will have greater no escape zone as compared to a slower one even if fired at a closer range. This is just one factor of determination of NEZ. There are many others which I will keep telling.you as you grow older and maturer in missile craft.


Here is my commentary on the NEZ...

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/f-16-block-52-vs-mirage-2000-5-mk2.367886/page-5#post-6981301


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## Aasimkhan

pakistanipower said:


> your pretending to be an expert but you're not, i know better than you @Aasimkhan


I am not here to prove my expertise level to any one, that's classified. But trust me whatever I said is provable under lab conditions. Whatever you said is hearsay.



gambit said:


> Here is my commentary on the NEZ...
> 
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/f-16-block-52-vs-mirage-2000-5-mk2.367886/page-5#post-6981301


Excellent stuff. It proves my point to a great extent.


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## Aasimkhan

pakistanipower said:


> You're just a troll, nothing else, what is the prove that you have expertise in defense matters, your false ego
> expertise not needed here on PDF and no one listening here your false expert analysis trash @Aasimkhan
> 
> 
> What points, you are trash @Aasimkhan


When people finish with any more logic they resort to name calling. I won't diysgrace myself by further replying to your name calling. You have just shown your class

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## python-000

Pakistan must inducted 2 or 3 sqd of J-10B & 1 or 2 Sqd of J-31 or J-20 from China in this tens situation...


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## Aasimkhan

python-000 said:


> Pakistan must inducted 2 or 3 sqd of J-10B & 1 or 2 Sqd of J-31 or J-20 from China in this tens situation...


Haha u never know


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## araz

python-000 said:


> Pakistan must inducted 2 or 3 sqd of J-10B & 1 or 2 Sqd of J-31 or J-20 from China in this tens situation...


AC induction needs years of planning and depot buildup and pilot training development of techniques keeping in mind the flight characteristics of the plane. So even if by some miracle these planes were to arrive next week, they will for most purposes be useless on account of above factors.
A


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## MIRauf

Actually time to push for some Loan / Aid from Gulf to buy EFT ( 40 odd, used if have to, ) upgraded for A2A Role if too expensive for Multi-Role. Pak PM, FM, Air-Chief, Army Chief all should be making round of Arab world and asking for $ assistance, make a huge case for it. Strike for $ Military assistance with the Arabs while Iron is hot, use this attempt / strike by India to Pakistan's own advantage.

Take a note from Israel play book vs Iran / Syria / Hizbullah etc. and how they use it to get max from USA and there is nothing wrong with it either as it serves them best.


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## syed_yusuf

MIRauf said:


> Actually time to push for some Loan / Aid from Gulf to buy EFT ( 40 odd, used if have to, ) upgraded for A2A Role if too expensive for Multi-Role. Pak PM, FM, Air-Chief, Army Chief all should be making round of Arab world and asking for $ assistance, make a huge case for it. Strike for $ Military assistance with the Arabs while Iron is hot, use this attempt / strike by India to Pakistan's own advantage.
> 
> Take a note from Israel play book vs Iran / Syria / Hizbullah etc. and how they use it to get max from USA and there is nothing wrong with it either as it serves them best.



good idea,


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## araz

MIRauf said:


> Actually time to push for some Loan / Aid from Gulf to buy EFT ( 40 odd, used if have to, ) upgraded for A2A Role if too expensive for Multi-Role. Pak PM, FM, Air-Chief, Army Chief all should be making round of Arab world and asking for $ assistance, make a huge case for it. Strike for $ Military assistance with the Arabs while Iron is hot, use this attempt / strike by India to Pakistan's own advantage.
> 
> Take a note from Israel play book vs Iran / Syria / Hizbullah etc. and how they use it to get max from USA and there is nothing wrong with it either as it serves them best.


I think the problem pakland has is that we dont have the money to pay the interest on the loans that we have currently aacrued. More loans would cripple us even more. I am not against the idea but perhaps in the next 2-3 years when we have rectified some of the acute fiscal pressures which befall us NOW. 
A

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## AsifIjaz

I humbly disagree...
Nothing can be done for the current situation on border. At max we can bring in a new batch of a2a or a2g missiles with spares.

For maximum leverage, benefit or modernization of airforce the shortest time period we are looking at is 2.5 to 3 years. 

Now about ur point about milking arabs... we are not arabic speakers (read egypt), nor we are taken as arabs by anyone. So they will not dole out cash for us at the same level.
Secondly
If at all we have a leverage on KSA/UAE then we should use it to convince kSA to buy the low cost aircraft called jf17. Two squadrons worth sale can do wonders for us. Get the economy of production on ur side and what you will have is a steep thunder modernization program infront of you. This would be the best scenario for us both short and long term.

The shortest program with most bang for bucks is... We embark upon a modernization program of jf17 block 2 to block 2b asap. Get that air cooled aesa on board. I am sure 2 or 3 aesa can be had in next 6 to 7 months, provided we want it and really push for it. Afterwards we can start writing manuals and training programs for pilots following the upgradation of mere 2 or 3 aircrafts. By the time more aesa arrive for upgrading further block 2 aircrafts, we will have some crude knowledge and documentation of how to go about training and assimilation of pilots on same aircrafts but with better radars.
This will also help pilots when they switch to block 3 aicrafts in 2021 which will definitely have slightly different flight characteristics but with a more powerful aesa and hopefully a better ecm package. 



MIRauf said:


> Actually time to push for some Loan / Aid from Gulf to buy EFT ( 40 odd, used if have to, ) upgraded for A2A Role if too expensive for Multi-Role. Pak PM, FM, Air-Chief, Army Chief all should be making round of Arab world and asking for $ assistance, make a huge case for it. Strike for $ Military assistance with the Arabs while Iron is hot, use this attempt / strike by India to Pakistan's own advantage.
> 
> Take a note from Israel play book vs Iran / Syria / Hizbullah etc. and how they use it to get max from USA and there is nothing wrong with it either as it serves them best.

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## Aasimkhan

pakistanipower said:


> Yes, i am not your class but stayed in higher class than you, this phrase shows your class that *AIR TO AIR MISSILES (BVR/SRAAM) HAVE NOT FIXED SPEED* @Aasimkhan


Where did I say this? R u day dreaming?


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## MIRauf

Issue with just selling couple of Dozen Jf-7 is that what $1 Million profit margin or so per AC will need to be split between CAC / PAC.The long term after sale will make no difference today or next month.

Yes Pak is no Egypt, however Pak can dole out 100k+ solders easily for KSA/UAE needs while Egypt can't. Pak can stand up another couple of Divisions if needed in short notice ( finances permitted where as Egypt can't. ) KSA and UAE has gotten zilch from Egypt in favor of doling out $10+ Billions for Rafale etc.

KSA / UAE and other Arab countries need a strong Pak, Pak just need to get over the Iran hurdle and look out for its best interests.

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## Aasimkhan

pakistanipower said:


> from your post #6041, that's show your class @Aasimkhan sick:


I never said *AIR TO AIR MISSILES (BVR/SRAAM) HAVE NOT FIXED SPEED, this is a figment of your wild imagination. * Read my post carefully again and if you still are unable to understand then hire an English tutor.


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## python-000

Aasimkhan said:


> Haha u never know


haha obviously Bro i am a common civilian person of Pakistan so how should i know...


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## Aasimkhan

pakistanipower said:


> I know better than you what are you saying at long ranges bvr are faster,at closer range they are slower, and i am in USA i know far far better than English than you fart,keep trolling @Aasimkhan


i never said this, i was saying various BVRs have different ranges and different speeds. The BVRs with more speed have a larger NEZ even if they are fired from a longer range. A BVR with slow speed even if fired from closer distance will have a smaller NEZ.


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## Path-Finder

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1100743853496324096
Hooray for Rtd. Air Marshal

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## khanasifm

Mirages and jf

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## Thorough Pro

Mirages for ground attack, Thunders for hunting flying pigs



khanasifm said:


> Mirages and jf


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## jupiter2007

Thorough Pro said:


> Mirages for ground attack, Thunders for hunting flying pigs



After Indian mig-21 planes were shot down, Indian airforce planners are seriously considering F-21 offer from USA. I think 15 billon dollars is a lot of moneys for 4.5 generation fighter program.

We need to start production of JF-17 Block3 and get another long range miltrole fighter plane, J-31 or J-20.


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## Path-Finder

I think some J10-C will be a great addition and at the time it will help bolster defences.

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## syed_yusuf

jupiter2007 said:


> After Indian mig-21 planes were shot down, Indian airforce planners are seriously considering F-21 offer from USA. I think 15 billon dollars is a lot of moneys for 4.5 generation fighter program.
> 
> We need to start production of JF-17 Block3 and get another long range miltrole fighter plane, J-31 or J-20.


I think paf shot down 2 mig 29


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## niaz

Seriously minded forum members would know that there is a lot of propaganda & misinformation from both sides during the war press briefings.

ISPR has been claiming that they shot down 2 Indian Mig -21 but only showing one pilot and debris of one aircraft. Indian spokesman, on the other hand, claims IAF also shot down one F-16.

IMHO only one aircraft was shot down by PAF and India did not shoot down any PAF fighter.

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## syed_yusuf

niaz said:


> Seriously minded forum members would know that there is a lot of propaganda & misinformation from both sides during the war press briefings.
> 
> ISPR has been claiming that they shot down 2 Indian Mig -21 but only showing one pilot and debris of one aircraft. Indian spokesman, on the other hand, claims IAF also shot down one F-16.
> 
> IMHO only one aircraft was shot down by PAF and India did not shoot down any PAF fighter.


 2 mig29 shot down 

One landed in AJK and the other on IOK side


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## niaz

syed_yusuf said:


> 2 mig29 shot down
> 
> One landed in AJK and the other on IOK side



Sir,

It is the first time I have heard that the downed plane was a Mig-29; DG ISPR never mentioned Mig-29? How did you manage to dig out this piece of news? On the number downed planes have you not heard that "Truth is the first casualty in a war" and no one really knows what is really happening. I still remember that during 1971 war we were told that all was going well in the war in East Pakistan until the news of surrender.

You are welcome to insist that it was Mig-29. However, in reply to a question in Khanzah's program ACM (Rtd), Suhail Aman implied that it was a Mig-21 but also said that IAF Mig-21s had been modified to carry BVR missiles and thus capable of shooting down any fighter? You would agree that as recently retired Chief of PAF, he would know more than you and me together.

Finally, I posted what I believe to be closer to reality and it is possible that 2 planes were downed but these were not the Mig-29's.

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## SQ8

Fog of war @niaz - the bigger issue is that NO one in the border areas or in critical cities is talking of civil defense initiatives or the like.

Its not that they are not sweating on the other side as well, and there is no need for us to sweat more; but at this could end up in a snowball effect where both sides aren’t able to control it.

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## khanasifm

Mug-21 and Dual seater mig-29, jf and mirages no f-16 involved at all

The mig type which fell in iok can be confirmed from other side but paf might have some indication as depending on range of visual than gun camera will confirm if bvr then iff data or awacs data might confirm

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## AsifIjaz

Bhai...
I guess i did not put my narrative the rt way..
Other than the pocket money that we may get from the sale of thunders. 2 or 3 squadrons of thunders in ksa /uae would mean
A) they have deeper pockets hence upgradation can be shouldered and will thus be comparatively early
B) western avionics and equipment would be relatively easier to acquire
C) sister countries of ksa/uae like bahrain egypt will be more willing to look at thunders
D) uae / ksa are better forces than myanmar or nigeria.. Hence better on the cv for thunders


MIRauf said:


> Issue with just selling couple of Dozen Jf-7 is that what $1 Million profit margin or so per AC will need to be split between CAC / PAC.The long term after sale will make no difference today or next month.
> 
> Yes Pak is no Egypt, however Pak can dole out 100k+ solders easily for KSA/UAE needs while Egypt can't. Pak can stand up another couple of Divisions if needed in short notice ( finances permitted where as Egypt can't. ) KSA and UAE has gotten zilch from Egypt in favor of doling out $10+ Billions for Rafale etc.
> 
> KSA / UAE and other Arab countries need a strong Pak, Pak just need to get over the Iran hurdle and look out for its best interests.

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## khanasifm

The engine exhaust look like su-30 from the size one that came down iok

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## khanasifm




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## MastanKhan

MIRauf said:


> Issue with just selling couple of Dozen Jf-7 is that what $1 Million profit margin or so per AC will need to be split between CAC / PAC.The long term after sale will make no difference today or next month.
> 
> Yes Pak is no Egypt, however Pak can dole out 100k+ solders easily for KSA/UAE needs while Egypt can't. Pak can stand up another couple of Divisions if needed in short notice ( finances permitted where as Egypt can't. ) KSA and UAE has gotten zilch from Egypt in favor of doling out $10+ Billions for Rafale etc.
> 
> KSA / UAE and other Arab countries need a strong Pak, Pak just need to get over the Iran hurdle and look out for its best interests.



Hi,

So true---that is what I told the higher ups in 2015---150K troops---and build a totally seperate battle group with independent air force---navy and ground forces---now they wish they had---.

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## SiCiSi

Pakistanis and Afghans are respected as fighters by us because they always fight back. And as much as I do not like them personally, I have to admit I respect them as men and their spirit to fight even in the face of a much bigger force. India will not win this one. 

Also now I understand is why everyone is so afraid to sell Pakistanis more capable planes. You have good pilots.

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## Aasimkhan

pakistanipower said:


> What a ridiculous person you are @Aasimkhan  i think you don't know what is you typing  Let me help you on this here you post # 6041 part
> Thirdly NEZ is most importantly effected by the speed of the missile.* A faster missile even if fired from a distance will have greater no escape zone as compared to a slower one even if fired at a closer range.* This is just one factor of determination of NEZ. There are many others which I will keep telling.you as you grow older and maturer in missile craft.
> 
> Even you this post said exactly same as above, almost all BVR has almost same speed slighty above Mach-4 (Amraam/R-77 class), do you know what is mach means @Aasimkhan  and NEZ is not depends only on speed but depends of lots of variables, like enemy is head on (coming to you) or tail Chase (receding from you), if enmey is coming to you then yes you have greater NEZ at long ranges but if they are receding from you NEZ will reduce 70 - 80% at long ranges but at closer BVR can become fire & forget weapon immediately after launch Because it dont need mid flight data link update from launch plate-form and directly go into active mode, Hence it has significantly vast NEZ coverage at closer range and NEZ also depends on Launch plate-form altitude etc etc, so you're all wrong kid, do some research before you post kid its a sincere advice to you @Aasimkhan


U mean all BVRs have same speed of mach 4 ? Go check the speed of meteor and also of PL 15 then feel some shame then get back to me



pakistanipower said:


> What a ridiculous person you are @Aasimkhan  i think you don't know what is you typing  Let me help you on this here you post # 6041 part
> Thirdly NEZ is most importantly effected by the speed of the missile.* A faster missile even if fired from a distance will have greater no escape zone as compared to a slower one even if fired at a closer range.* This is just one factor of determination of NEZ. There are many others which I will keep telling.you as you grow older and maturer in missile craft.
> 
> Even you this post said exactly same as above, almost all BVR has almost same speed slighty above Mach-4 (Amraam/R-77 class), do you know what is mach means @Aasimkhan  and NEZ is not depends only on speed but depends of lots of variables, like enemy is head on (coming to you) or tail Chase (receding from you), if enmey is coming to you then yes you have greater NEZ at long ranges but if they are receding from you NEZ will reduce 70 - 80% at long ranges but at closer BVR can become fire & forget weapon immediately after launch Because it dont need mid flight data link update from launch plate-form and directly go into active mode, Hence it has significantly vast NEZ coverage at closer range and NEZ also depends on Launch plate-form altitude etc etc, so you're all wrong kid, do some research before you post kid its a sincere advice to you @Aasimkhan
> 
> [


And I had told you beforehand that there are many other factors also but we will not discuss them because they are constants. You you know what is a constant in research Mr Einstein ? But again you started discussing them one by one just to confuse the issue and lengthen the topic unnecessarily. Remain focussed jani


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## Ultima Thule

Aasimkhan said:


> U mean all BVRs have same speed of mach 4 ? Go check the speed of meteor and also of PL 15 then feel some shame then get back to me


Do you have a comprehension problems @Aasimkhan  i said most of (Amraam class) Meteor uses RAMJET engine and PL-15 is long range BVR similar to USAF retired AIM-154 Phoneix BVR


Aasimkhan said:


> And I had told you beforehand that there are many other factors also but we will not discuss them because they are constants. You you know what is a constant in research Mr Einstein ? But again you started discussing them one by one just to confuse the issue and lengthen the topic unnecessarily. Remain focussed jani


And i prove you all wrong, you said BVR has better/greater NEZ at long ranges and at closer range BVR has lesser NEZ, opposite is true for your false assertions, go kid have a hike and do research before you post @Aasimkhan


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## Aasimkhan

pakistanipower said:


> Do you have a comprehension problems @Aasimkhan  i said most of (Amraam class) Meteor uses RAMJET engine and PL-15 is long range BVR similar to USAF retired AIM-154 Phoneix BVR
> 
> And i prove you all wrong, you said BVR has better/greater NEZ at long ranges and at closer range BVR has lesser NEZ, opposite is true for your false assertions, go kid have a hike and do research before you post @Aasimkhan


Sorry I did not say it, you need a tuition in English language.



pakistanipower said:


> Do you have a comprehension problems @Aasimkhan  i said most of (Amraam class) Meteor uses RAMJET engine and PL-15 is long range BVR similar to USAF retired AIM-154 Phoneix BVR
> 
> And i prove you all wrong, you said BVR has better/greater NEZ at long ranges and at closer range BVR has lesser NEZ, opposite is true for your false assertions, go kid have a hike and do research before you post @Aasimkhan


And did I I say was talking of only AMRAAM class? You make your own assumptions and start firing from hip.


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## Danish saleem

I am just surprised that we claiming hit was by JF-17, but on the other hand Indian showing pieces of AIM-120CC, which cant be fired from JF-17, so it MIG 21 was down by JF-17, and SU 30 By F-16? i am confused


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## jupiter2007

Pakistan need 4 additional squadrons to increase it’s strength.



pakistanipower said:


> Don't have a word of face saving @Aasimkhan  i remain always on topic you don't clarify me what class of BVR you talking about,i prove all wrong your false experties nothing worth here go to school kid than post @Aasimkhan



Your English writing skill is worse than me.


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## Pakhtoon yum

No f-16s period


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## Aasimkhan

pakistanipower said:


> Don't have a word of face saving @Aasimkhan  i remain always on topic you don't clarify me what class of BVR you talking about,i prove all wrong your false experties nothing worth here go to school kid than post @Aasimkhan


If you read English carefullybyouveill come to know that my statement had nothing to do with class of BVRs. My statement was general pertaining to all BVRs but alas you don't even make an effort to decipher the meaning of my words and start criticizing. That is very unfortunate.


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## jupiter2007

pakistanipower said:


> ok kid now happy @jupiter2007



The readon I made that comment because you claimed to be in USA and you claimed you have better writing skill than others. Nothing personal... 



jupiter2007 said:


> Pakistan need 4 additional squadrons to increase it’s strength.



Since JF-17 Block 3 won’t be ready for production until late 2020, we will continue the production line for Block 2. We will probably have 2 additional squadrons for Block 2 by 2020 to replace F-7s of Squadrons 18 and 20.

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## mingle

jupiter2007 said:


> The readon I made that comment because you claimed to be in USA and you claimed you have better writing skill than others. Nothing personal...
> 
> 
> 
> Since JF-17 Block 3 won’t be ready for production until late 2020, we will continue the production line for Block 2. We will probably have 2 additional squadrons for Block 2 by 2020 to replace F-7s of Squadrons 18 and 20.


More F16s new and old from team Trump they are desparate


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## jupiter2007

mingle said:


> More F16s new and old from team Trump they are desparate



Lockers Martin want to continue the production line of F-16s, hence they are offering India F-21 (advance F-16) option with local production. We will have to see what comes out of that offer. If india agree to that and go in that direction then we won’t get anymore F-16s and PAF planner are already focus on other options. If india does not take the bait of F-21 then we might get additional 15 to 20 surplus F-16s. I think Trump might even entertain the idea of selling New F-16s Block 60+ to Pakistan. Some people even floating the idea of surplus F-15s from Japan which doesn’t make sense to me. All of this depends on the peace in the region.



Storm bombardier said:


> Wing commander shahzaz ud din who was shot down by mig
> View attachment 543122



You search him up on the internet??? Isn’t he training on J-16s in China?

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## mingle

Storm bombardier said:


> Wing commander shahzaz ud din who was shot down by mig
> View attachment 543122


My Indian friend just quit now. None of F16 shot down accept it or bring a proof don't make internet story.pak never had problem to accept its loss we lost F16 in combat at western borders mid 80s and pilot was our forum buddy Knuckles father. But it was in news right away if they couldn't hide on those days now we r 35 yrs ahead.



jupiter2007 said:


> Lockers Martin want to continue the production line of F-16s, hence they are offering India F-21 (advance F-16) option with local production. We will have to see what comes out of that offer. If india agree to that and go in that direction then we won’t get anymore F-16s and PAF planner are already focus on other options. If india does not take the bait of F-21 then we might get additional 15 to 20 surplus F-16s. I think Trump might even entertain the idea of selling New F-16s Block 60+ to Pakistan. Some people even floating the idea of surplus F-15s from Japan which doesn’t make sense to me. All of this depends on the peace in the region.
> 
> 
> 
> You search him up on the internet??? Isn’t he training on J-16s in China?


India not gonna buy F21 they will go more rafale Jett with tejas.LM should float this F21 idea to Pak its about 10 billion $ if this happens that would be best along JF17 blk 3 we don't need F15 these F21 would be the best along JF17 we can concentrate on 5th Gen next 15 yrs.


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## fatman17

The latest image (October 2018) indicated that the 03 batch has entered the service with PLAAF (S/N 61x6x?). The export variant of J-10C might be called J-10CE.

- Last Updated 2/26/19

Ready for export?


----------



## ziaulislam

niaz said:


> Sir,
> 
> It is the first time I have heard that the downed plane was a Mig-29; DG ISPR never mentioned Mig-29? How did you manage to dig out this piece of news? On the number downed planes have you not heard that "Truth is the first casualty in a war" and no one really knows what is really happening. I still remember that during 1971 war we were told that all was going well in the war in East Pakistan until the news of surrender.
> 
> You are welcome to insist that it was Mig-29. However, in reply to a question in Khanzah's program ACM (Rtd), Suhail Aman implied that it was a Mig-21 but also said that IAF Mig-21s had been modified to carry BVR missiles and thus capable of shooting down any fighter? You would agree that as recently retired Chief of PAF, he would know more than you and me together.
> 
> Finally, I posted what I believe to be closer to reality and it is possible that 2 planes were downed but these were not the Mig-29's.


Very much possible. Though i wonder why did the statement change from 2 to 1 that simply hurted ispr credibility


----------



## jupiter2007

fatman17 said:


> The latest image (October 2018) indicated that the 03 batch has entered the service with PLAAF (S/N 61x6x?). The export variant of J-10C might be called J-10CE.
> 
> - Last Updated 2/26/19
> 
> Ready for export?
> View attachment 543136



70 million each, maintenance and operational cost will be less than J-16.


----------



## mingle

Haris Khan PDF saying none of F16 is down but second jet was Su 30MKI.which IAF is down playing well done boys.



jupiter2007 said:


> 70 million each, maintenance and operational cost will be less than J-16.


Best option for Pak is still F16s new and used just add up nothing more trained pilots trained crew just keep adding.
PAF should talk with LM about F21 option.


----------



## jupiter2007

Storm bombardier said:


> What proof do you have your f16 was not shot



Don’t you think Lockheer Martin will be interesting in knowing what happened? Indians have no shame in telling lies and deceit, and making up funny stories. 
It ain’t Bollywood buddy. You can conquer China with Tejas only in Bollywood, reality is different.


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## fatman17

Storm bombardier said:


> What proof do you have your f16 was not shot


What tangible proof you have that it was? 
Accept the fact that IAF had a bad day period. That's life. your airforce is not invincible, ours isn't also. Relax till the next time. l sincerely hope better sense prevails. Peace!

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## Tank131

Storm bombardier said:


> What proof do you have your f16 was not shot


Well thats easily verifiable. You all seem to forget, the PAF F-16s are frequently inspected and attended to by American personnel to ensure that no component or weapon makes goes missing only to turn up in CAC. So if the US hasnt been talking about it, then its likely not true. More likely the Parachute was that of colonel Abhi.

As for having AIM120 wreckage, highly unlikely that it left identifiable wreckage, but if it did it would have landed in Pakistan, because IAF only lost one aircraft to PAF remember? Isnt that the official line of Gov of India? But if colonel Abhi was shot down over Pakistan, any missiles remains wpuld be in Pakistan far from Indian reach. IF you have missile wreckage in India, youust admit a second jet went down which begs the question which aircraft and who shot it? I am of the question that it was more likely a Mig, and likely by the same type that took the colonels plane. This is likely JF-17 as the pilots who were credited are thunder pilots.

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## GriffinsRule

Its only a matter of time that footage or pics will come out of the Indian wreckage inside IOK


----------



## TheDarkKnight

Storm bombardier said:


> There is news about wng commander shahzaz ud din what about him


No such pilot exist; your media is making stuff up for example showing the downed mig21 wreckage in Azad Kashmir as F16!! I mean if your media could have used some brain and called it a downed f7 then maybe it could have held some weight - but then the Indian marking and caught pilot is visible.



Tank131 said:


> Well thats easily verifiable. You all seem to forget, the PAF F-16s are frequently inspected and attended to by American personnel to ensure that no component or weapon makes goes missing only to turn up in CAC. So if the US hasnt been talking about it, then its likely not true. More likely the Parachute was that of colonel Abhi.
> 
> As for having AIM120 wreckage, highly unlikely that it left identifiable wreckage, but if it did it would have landed in Pakistan, because IAF only lost one aircraft to PAF remember? Isnt that the official line of Gov of India? But if colonel Abhi was shot down over Pakistan, any missiles remains wpuld be in Pakistan far from Indian reach. IF you have missile wreckage in India, youust admit a second jet went down which begs the question which aircraft and who shot it? I am of the question that it was more likely a Mig, and likely by the same type that took the colonels plane. This is likely JF-17 as the pilots who were credited are thunder pilots.


The second PAF kill most likely is the mig21 that crashed in IOK due to “technical issues” right around the time of PAF attack plus there is a downed mi17.


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## BERKEKHAN2

TheDarkKnight said:


> No such pilot exist; your gov is making stuff up now.


If you have no casualty then why IK &DG ISPR said we have two pilots one is in CMH and another one is with them 
Where is the other pilot did he escape frm hospital??


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## jupiter2007

Storm bombardier said:


> There is news about wng commander shahzaz ud din what about him


What news? Again you making something out of nothing.


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## BERKEKHAN2

jupiter2007 said:


> What news? Again you making something out of nothing.


Ok let us agree it's fake but why IK& DG ISPR said we have two pilots one is in CMH and other guy is with them .


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## jupiter2007

Storm bombardier said:


> Ok let us agree it's fake but why IK& DG ISPR said we have two pilots one is in CMH and other guy is with them .



We will wait until de-escalating and I am sure one of our journalist will ask that question. ISPR might not want to share that information at this point also since india only claiming one pilot missing.

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## BERKEKHAN2

jupiter2007 said:


> We will wait until de-escalating and I am sure one of our journalist will ask that question. ISPR might not want to share that information at this point also since india only claiming one pilot missing.


ISPR actually helped our narrative


----------



## TheDarkKnight

Storm bombardier said:


> If you have no casualty then why IK &DG ISPR said we have two pilots one is in CMH and another one is with them
> Where is the other pilot did he escape frm hospital??


So you are telling me PAF F16 pilots were caught by PA herself, took to hospital thinking all the way that both pilots are Indians and declared by DG ISPR? I mean seriously we cant even Identify our own pilot from our own plane in our territory , all the way upto the hospital !
The mystery of the other two pilots remains I believe, but to consider them as PAFs own pilots mistaken as IAF is just ridiculous (quite frankly an insult) and is merely a drowning man clutching straws argument. Substantiate your claim with some credible supporting evidence rather than as we say in Urdu, “ Dum ka baal sa hathi banana” which literally translates to : “ to make an elephant from a hair of its tail”. A downed F16 will be found out by Americans if true, we owe explanation and checks for each sensitive equipment like an F16!!

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## jupiter2007

Storm bombardier said:


> ISPR actually helped our narrative



I feel sorry for you...we are still in state of war, our airspace is still close.
Take your narrative and shove it in Modi bechwara.


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## TheDarkKnight

jupiter2007 said:


> What news? Again you making something out of nothing.


Man they need some mental refuge, they will cook up anything make fantastical claims from mere rumors- as in their minds it’s impossible PAF outdid them in this round unscathed!


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## jupiter2007

TheDarkKnight said:


> So you are telling me PAF F16 pilots were caught by PA herself, took to hospital thinking all the way that both pilots are Indians and declared by DG ISPR? I mean seriously we cant even Identify our own pilot from our own plane in our territory , all the way upto the hospital !
> The mystery of the other two pilots remains I believe, but to consider them as PAFs own pilots mistaken as IAF is just ridiculous (quite frankly an insult) and is merely a drowning man clutching straws argument. Substantiate your claim with some credible supporting evidence rather than as we say in Urdu, “ Dum ka baal sa hathi banana” which literally translates to : “ to make an elephant from a hair of its tail”. A downed F16 will be found out by Americans if true, we owe explanation and checks for each sensitive equipment like an F16!!



Seriously calm down, too much information for Indians to understand


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## TheDarkKnight

jupiter2007 said:


> Seriously calm down


I believe this is a misquote, but I am very calm.


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## BERKEKHAN2

TheDarkKnight said:


> So you are telling me PAF F16 pilots were caught by PA herself, took to hospital thinking all the way that both pilots are Indians and declared by DG ISPR? I mean seriously we cant even Identify our own pilot from our own plane in our territory , all the way upto the hospital !
> The mystery of the other two pilots remains I believe, but to consider them as PAFs own pilots mistaken as IAF is just ridiculous (quite frankly an insult) and is merely a drowning man clutching straws argument. Substantiate your claim with some credible supporting evidence rather than as we say in Urdu, “ Dum ka baal sa hathi banana” which literally translates to : “ to make an elephant from a hair of its tail”. A downed F16 will be found out by Americans if true, we owe explanation and checks for each sensitive equipment like an F16!!


Before army could reach the place locals had beaten him mercilessly


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## TheDarkKnight

Storm bombardier said:


> Before army could reach the place locals had beaten him mercilessly


Who Abhinanand ? He was just roughed up but I apologize for the locals behavior.


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## BERKEKHAN2

TheDarkKnight said:


> Who Abhinanand ? He was just roughed up but I apologize for the locals behavior.


No the other pilot who was struck on a tree 
Haven't you seen old chacha vedio which he claims there two pilots down


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## Great Janjua

Storm bombardier said:


> Before army could reach the place locals had beaten him mercilessly


The locals are not brain dead they wouldn't just starting beating without verifying the pilots country plus our air men wear our flag on their uniform

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## Great Janjua

Storm bombardier said:


> No the other pilot who was struck on a tree
> Haven't you seen old chacha vedio which he claims there two pilots down


He said 3 pilots he also said one landed in India


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## TheDarkKnight

Storm bombardier said:


> No the other pilot who was struck on a tree
> Haven't you seen old chacha vedio which he claims there two pilots down


Lol so its locals now as well who cant differentiate! But An old chacha says two pilots and from far off he can tell they were Pakistani - but our own locals didn't. Honsetly both armies wear distinctive uniforms and we can identify- atleast PA can identify before telling it to DG ISPR - cant we see it from the id and uniform they carry!


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## GriffinsRule

There is no mystery on the two pilots ... both were shot down in their Su-30 and ejected over IOK.

In other news ... how incompetent are Indians. The losers have been operation Mig-21 since the 60s and even assembled hundreds of them in India ... yet are still unable to even identify its wreckage and claim its an F-16!!

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## TheDarkKnight

Storm bombardier said:


> Give a simple answer why Dg ispr changed it's position


Well we need to quiz DG ISPR for it as without any details available to the public we can only speculate inconclusively- its a mystery I would agree. But what I know for sure it certainly is not PA mistaking our own pilots as Indians, when we know all professional Armies wear distinctive badges, flags, carry ID # etc - we even put our flag on the airplane tails for Gods Sake.

My own speculation is discussed at the end in this post with upto 6 scenarios that explain it:
#BREAKING: PAF shot down two Indian aircrafts inside Pakistani airspace: DG ISPR


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## GriffinsRule

Go and quiz him then. I am sure the PAF pilots reported back two successful shoot downs. Our AWACS might have even seen the two ejections and the Indian pilots floating down. The news reached him but there might have been confusion around who was in custody and CMH ... which happened to be the same pilot. After all, he was bleeding all over his face and mustve been taken for treatment. Not that hard to fathom that miscommunication can happen.


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## Reichsmarschall

Storm bombardier said:


> Wing commander shahzaz ud din who was shot down by mig
> View attachment 543122


We don't have names like shahzaz you moron 
It's purely work of Indian fiction

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## Tank131

Firstly in fog of war you could forgive a update about 2 pilots as a mistake or you can twist it into a cover up. But as i said i reminded everyone PAF F-16 are under American eyes. We would know if one was lost. And all know that at least 3 IAF pilots were involved as two were shot down amd died over IOK and 1 captured by PA. So you could forgive the confusion which occured within minutes of the event in question. You all couldn't even acknowledge the fact that your pilot was in Pakistani custody for 12 hours calling it fake news with your media screaming dont believe Pakistan! The reality is you guys refuse to acknowledge any new paints india in an inferior light. I have yet to find any international source even remotely believing your claims of an actual successful bombing strike in Balakot with most still listing it as an Indian claim. Furthermore most have have stopped discussing anything about F-16. Especially when you all destroyed your credibility earlier in the day claiming PAF accidentally shot down their own F-16 in a war panic/hysteria with pics circulated on twitter. Then the entire saga has continued to evolve with various excuses about how India came out on top. Nobody buys it outside india. Even many Indians dont buy it because within minutes of Colonel Abhi's appearance in Pak Custody, videos were circulating about his capture, initial interrogation, cleanup and subsequent interview. There were photographic amd video graphic evidence of his downed MIG and the 2nd jet in IOK (by locals kashmiri). There was a video of Kashmiri attacking a Mi-17 with rocks all of these were done contporaneously. India has yet to show amy such video live evidence of any of its claims.


My theory is that the whole thing fr the initial bombing to the finale was a studip false flag exercise that got far out of hand and this is a message even suggested by some members of Indian civil society. Modi is losing state elections and is worried about up coming ballots. He arranged an attack on his own soldiers and he got an excuse to hit Pakistan at a time when relations with US were improving. He gets popularity for at least being tough because he is being embarrassed on economic front. Explains lack of death on Pakistani side. I think he believed truly that as long as it was a no death toll strike he could get away with it but he recieved retaliation which he didnt expect. And it got away until PAKISTAN had decided to release Abhi.

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## Chak Bamu

Storm bombardier said:


> What proof do you have your f16 was not shot


Classic troll tactic: You want proof that F-16 was NOT shot? How would such a proof be possible, except lining up all the PAF F-16s and counting them?

Lemme ask you to prove that IAF Flanker was not shot? How does that sound?

It would be logical to ask what proof is there that an F-16 or SU-30 MKI was shot.

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## Danish saleem

Storm bombardier said:


> Wing commander shahzaz ud din who was shot down by mig
> View attachment 543122



Please share the Hit video, from the camera which is mounted on Hud, where is that Video, in which your Air force easily able to prove that they hit F-16. 
We share videos, pilot and wreckage what ever proof we have! but what u shared are the pieces of AIM 120, which also proved that your plane got hit !


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## fatman17

So, India has removed WAC chief after PAF strikes & shooting down of IAF fighters.
Just to point out, IAF WAC operates three Sq of Su30 (Sq 17, 220, 221) and two Sq of Mig21(Sq 3, 51).
His removal is a major supportive argument in favor of Pakistan stance!
https://t.co/m9GfMGPcgs

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## Aasimkhan

Tps43 said:


> Bus karo tum dono kitne duno se larr rahe ho


I rest my case

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## Jango

fatman17 said:


> So, India has removed WAC chief after PAF strikes & shooting down of IAF fighters.
> Just to point out, IAF WAC operates three Sq of Su30 (Sq 17, 220, 221) and two Sq of Mig21(Sq 3, 51).
> His removal is a major supportive argument in favor of Pakistan stance!
> https://t.co/m9GfMGPcgs



The news from Indian media is that he was supposed to retire today as a matter of routine.

Take it as you may.


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## mingle

Storm bombardier said:


> What proof do you have your f16 was not shot


Just quit my friend tum say nahi hoga how far u will stretch urself to prove.


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## S-A-B-E-R->

The Thing I want to see is The JF17 used in the recent kills with two mig 21 silhouettes painted below the cockpit!

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## fatman17

S-A-B-E-R-> said:


> The Thing I want to see is The JF17 used in the recent kills with two mig 21 silhouettes painted below the cockpit!


Soon mate

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## ghazi52

Pakistan had handed over captured Indian Air Force pilot Abhinandan,

In a brief statement, the Indian authorities said, "IAF wing commander Abhinandan Varthaman has just been handed over to us as per the standard operating procedures. We will now take him for a detailed medical checkup. This is mandatory because he had ejected and must have caused great stress to his body."


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## ghazi52

Air Chief Mujahid Anwar Khan has said Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is fully prepared to respond to any aggression.

He made the remarks during his visit to forward operating air bases today where he also met with air defense and security staff.

The Air Chief praised the performance and professionalism of Pakistan Air Force for their recent triumph against the enemy.

He said the entire nation is proud of Pakistan Air Force for delivering to the duty of defense and security of the country in the most professional manner.

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## ziaulislam

Storm bombardier said:


> Give a simple answer why Dg ispr changed it's position


Easy..when arrested he got a call.. Saying guy is healthy ..but than they took him to hospital for treatment so he mention second one under treatment ...confusion was cleared very quickly


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## ghazi52

*'Challenges not over yet, keep your guard up,' Air chief tells PAF personnel*
March 04, 2019






Chief of the Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan addresses PAF personnel at forward operating bases. — PAF

Chief of the Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan, on Monday cautioned the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) officers that they should keep their "guard up" as the challenges facing the nation "are not over yet".

The air chief made the remarks during a visit to the forward operating bases (FOB), where, according to a PAF spokesperson, he met combat and ground crew, air defence and engineering personnel, security troops and civilian staff.

"We bow our heads in complete humility and express our gratitude to the Almighty for giving us strength to come up to the expectations of our resilient nation,” the air chief said, referring to last week's repulsion of an Indian attack and subsequent shooting down of two Indian aircraft.

"The entire nation is proud of PAF, which did exceptionally well in safeguarding the sovereignty of our country in the recent conflict with the enemy.”

One of the Indian aircraft's pilots was captured by the armed forces before Prime Minister Imran Khan decided to repatriate him as a peace gesture.

The move has largely dispelled an immediate threat of further escalations with India, but the chief of air staff has instructed PAF personnel to not let their guards down.

"The challenges are not over yet, and we should keep our guards up and always be ready to respond to any aggression from the adversary," he said.

Last month, amid heightened tension between India and Pakistan following an attack on Indian security forces in occupied Kashmir's Pulwama district, Air Chief Marshal Khan had said that the PAF would "thwart any misadventure by the enemy" and was ready to respond to any incursion with full force as per the aspirations of the nation.

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## royalharris

Paks should seriously consider rafael，make good preparation for it
Never underestimate your enemy

To be honest，PAF have waste a lot of time to make the decison about another platform

Wish you best，friends

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## SQ8

royalharris said:


> Paks should seriously consider rafael，make good preparation for it，don＇t underestimate enemy


It is being - including any intel from airforces that have trained with it in exercises.

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## syed_yusuf

PAF should speed up its project Azm with target of getting in the active service by 2023.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Oscar said:


> It is being - including any intel from airforces that have trained with it in exercises.


I'd say the Rafale isn't a free ticket. It's a very pricy platform and the loss of even a few would be very significant. Can we really expect the IAF to send them for a border fight at the LoC? I think their job will be to prevent an even worse scenario, like the PAF trying to knock out high value targets? Or a bigger attack role, like trying to deny the PAF its own airspace?

Makes one wonder... How about setting up a unit of 24 Typhoon T3s to specifically match up to any Rafale force? Between now and Azm, I imagine the dream would be to fit the F-16s with AESA and get 18~24 T3s... Get a solid 100 tier one long-range jets to be the edge of a sledgehammer of 150+ JF-17 fleet (ideally all with AESA)

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## SQ8

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I'd say the Rafale isn't a free ticket. It's a very pricy platform and the loss of even a few would be very significant. Can we really expect the IAF to send them for a border fight at the LoC? I think their job will be to prevent an even worse scenario, like the PAF trying to knock out high value targets? Or a bigger attack role, like trying to deny the PAF its own airspace?
> 
> Makes one wonder... How about setting up a unit of 24 Typhoon T3s to specifically match up to any Rafale force? Between now and Azm, I imagine the dream would be to fit the F-16s with AESA and get 18~24 T3s... Get a solid 100 tier one long-range jets to be the edge of a sledgehammer of 150+ JF-17 fleet (ideally all with AESA)


The economy is currently under chemotherapeutic state; our focus is to get the JF-17 fleet up to its status so we might even go all the way to 200 JF-17s to augment it. 
Internal loans and purchases are easier to take and “book” versus an external one.

Plus besides adding in more F-16Vs, anything other than AZM is luxury.

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## Aasimkhan

Oscar said:


> The economy is currently under chemotherapeutic state; our focus is to get the JF-17 fleet up to its status so we might even go all the way to 200 JF-17s to augment it.
> Internal loans and purchases are easier to take and “book” versus an external one.
> 
> Plus besides adding in more F-16Vs, anything other than AZM is luxury.


IMHO JF17 equipped with AESA and PL15 should be able to take care of Rafale threat

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## hassan1



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## Amigator

What type of F-16 is this?


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## lithiumhydride

Amigator said:


> View attachment 544361
> 
> 
> What type of F-16 is this?


presumably block50/52+


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## CriticalThought

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I'd say the Rafale isn't a free ticket. It's a very pricy platform and the loss of even a few would be very significant. Can we really expect the IAF to send them for a border fight at the LoC? I think their job will be to prevent an even worse scenario, like the PAF trying to knock out high value targets? Or a bigger attack role, like trying to deny the PAF its own airspace?
> 
> Makes one wonder... How about setting up a unit of 24 Typhoon T3s to specifically match up to any Rafale force? Between now and Azm, I imagine the dream would be to fit the F-16s with AESA and get 18~24 T3s... Get a solid 100 tier one long-range jets to be the edge of a sledgehammer of 150+ JF-17 fleet (ideally all with AESA)



It's not the plane, it's the equipment and armaments that matter. And we should be looking to design our own in cooperation with China. Forget already about the Western platforms. We need to think how we can best them, not how we can use them.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Oscar said:


> The economy is currently under chemotherapeutic state; our focus is to get the JF-17 fleet up to its status so we might even go all the way to 200 JF-17s to augment it.
> Internal loans and purchases are easier to take and “book” versus an external one.
> 
> Plus besides adding in more F-16Vs, anything other than AZM is luxury.


Then retrofitting Block-I/II with the LETRI AESA radar will be key.

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## MikeZulu

Amigator said:


> View attachment 544361
> 
> 
> What type of F-16 is this?



Its an F-16 C/D Block 52+ .. The difference between block 15 and block 52 is the shape as u can see in this image on sides of cockpit.. The older ones don't have this.


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## araz

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Then retrofitting Block-I/II with the LETRI AESA radar will be key.


I suspect PAF will very closely analyze the effectiveness of KLJ7 radar in this particular effort. This is no longer the case of fighter vs fighter but a net centric warfare era where the AWACs are leading the show from the rear. So what advantage do we get from mass level exchange of Radars costing us 5-7 million per plane (2 million loss of old radar plus 5 million new one plus time for exchange plus testing) . Do we build another 30-50 fighters instead and these can be armed with AESA Radar which can be a lot more useful expenditure than discarding nearly 100 perfectly good Radars just because they are PDs. I think PAF will be thinking hard before it puts its money in.
A

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## Path-Finder

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1102960793711267841


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## Aasimkhan

Path-Finder said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1102960793711267841


This is the coverall of Israeli pilot shot down by air Marshall sattar alvi in 1973


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## syed_yusuf

Amigator said:


> View attachment 544361
> 
> 
> What type of F-16 is this?



what is on mid pylon between PGM and aim9


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## truthseeker2010

syed_yusuf said:


> what is on mid pylon between PGM and aim9



GBU-31


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## syed_yusuf

truthseeker2010 said:


> GBU-31



what is this


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## Zulfiqar

syed_yusuf said:


> what is this
> 
> View attachment 544527



Jdams.


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## CHACHA"G"

Hello all
We use our F-7pgs as interceptor ,,,,,,,,, What if we replace them with EFT t-3 ( We can use them as interceptor ) …….. F-7pgs still have 5+ years life in them ……. In these 5 years PAF can do needful (money + negotiations +contract )……
What you all think ……

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## Shabi1

CHACHA"G" said:


> Hello all
> We use our F-7pgs as interceptor ,,,,,,,,, What if we replace them with EFT t-3 ( We can use them as interceptor ) …….. F-7pgs still have 5+ years life in them ……. In these 5 years PAF can do needful (money + negotiations +contract )……
> What you all think ……


What we've learned from the current scenario is weapon matters more than launch platform. F-7PGs to be replaced by block-3 equipped with Pl-10 and Pl-15 which is equivalent of meteor missile, they would be better suited for airsuperiority. So I would say EFT not needed.

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## Zubear Ali

Is there truth in this news of China supplying pl-15 for use with jf-17 block 2 as as reported by paffalcons.com


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## Maxpane

Zubear Ali said:


> Is there truth in this news of China supplying pl-15 for use with jf-17 block 2 as as reported by paffalcons.com


its all on fb

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## Ultima Thule

Maxpane said:


> its all on fb


I think PL-15 will come with BLK-3 Current radar on BLK-2 has not much range to guide PL-15 KLJ-7V2 has a range of 130 Km and PL-15 have a range of 150-200 KM , rthiose just speculations and rumors are @Maxpane

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## Maxpane

Zubear Ali said:


> Is there truth in this news of China supplying pl-15 for use with jf-17 block 2 as as reported by paffalcons.com


its all on fb


pakistanipower said:


> I think PL-15 will come with BLK-3 Current radar on BLK-2 has not much range to guide PL-15 KLJ-7V2 has a range of 130 Km and PL-15 have a range of 150-200 KM , rthiose just speculations and rumors are @Maxpane


got it sir


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## Readerdefence

pakistanipower said:


> I think PL-15 will come with BLK-3 Current radar on BLK-2 has not much range to guide PL-15 KLJ-7V2 has a range of 130 Km and PL-15 have a range of 150-200 KM , rthiose just speculations and rumors are @Maxpane


Hi it can be guided by awacs for further guidance towards target 
Thank you

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## Ultima Thule

Readerdefence said:


> Hi it can be guided by awacs for further guidance towards target
> Thank you


Yes, it possible according to @gambit but might be this capability for US/Russian/Chinese AWACS but definitely our erieye or ZDK-3 have not this capability @Readerdefence

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## Readerdefence

pakistanipower said:


> Yes, it possible according to @gambit but might be this capability for US/Russian/Chinese AWACS but definitely our erieye or ZDK-3 have not this capability @Readerdefence


Hi ok I thought we can use this through link-17 any info on it 
Thank you

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## fatman17

JF-17 Block 3 jet expected to be fitted with active electronically scanned array radar
By Liu Xuanzun Source:Global Times Published: 2019/3/11

Development of JF-17 Block 3 jet underway

A JF-17 fighter jet attached to the Pakistan Air Force flies towards the designated airspace during an air-to-ground offensive operation drill conducted by two Chinese JH-7 fighter bombers and two Pakistani JF-17 fighter jets on Sept. 20, 2017, which is part of the "Shaheen VI " joint training exercise launched by the air forces of China and Pakistan on Sept. 8 and scheduled to conclude on Sept. 27, 2017. Photo: eng.chinamil.com.

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## araz

fatman17 said:


> JF-17 Block 3 jet expected to be fitted with active electronically scanned array radar
> By Liu Xuanzun Source:Global Times Published: 2019/3/11
> 
> Development of JF-17 Block 3 jet underway
> 
> A JF-17 fighter jet attached to the Pakistan Air Force flies towards the designated airspace during an air-to-ground offensive operation drill conducted by two Chinese JH-7 fighter bombers and two Pakistani JF-17 fighter jets on Sept. 20, 2017, which is part of the "Shaheen VI " joint training exercise launched by the air forces of China and Pakistan on Sept. 8 and scheduled to conclude on Sept. 27, 2017. Photo: eng.chinamil.com.
> View attachment 545751


Do you think the full article can be posted here or if not salient features please


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## hassan1



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## kursed

The development and production of the JF-17 Block 3 are underway, said Yang Wei, a Chinese legislator and chief designer of the China-Pakistan co-developed fighter jet, as he aims to enhance the jet's informatized warfare capability and weapons.

"All related work is being carried out," said Yang at a Thursday press conference featuring Chinese legislators and political advisers in aviation, China Aviation News reported Friday.

*The third block will see the JF-17's informatized warfare capability and weapons upgraded, Yang said.

Wei Dongxu, a Beijing-based military analyst, told the Global Times on Monday that the JF-17 Block 3 is expected to be fitted with an active electronically scanned array radar, which can gather more information in combat, enabling the fighter jet to engage from a farther range and attack multiple targets at the same time. A helmet-mounted display and sight system could also allow pilots to aim whatever he sees. 

Pakistan, the main user of the JF-17, could further share information between the fighter and other platforms, taking advantage of the whole combat system to effectively defend against strong opponents like India, Wei said.*

With the new upgrade, Wei expects the JF-17 Block 3 to match an improved version of the F-16 fighter jet.

Yang said that the development and batch production for the JF-17 Block 3 are going simultaneously, thanks to the broad experience.

*Wei said this probably means while the upgrades like the new AESA radar are still in development, the airframe, which remains roughly the same, can be manufactured without waiting.*

Once new developments are complete, they can be fitted on the airframe very fast, ensuring a quick delivery time, Wei said.

The JF-17, or the FC-1, is a single-engine multi-role light fighter jet jointly developed by China and Pakistan for export, according to the website of the Aviation Industry Corporation of China.

When asked about which countries have inquired about the JF-17 Block 3, Yang said "A lot of countries have come to buy. You sign [a contract for the JF-17], you benefit."

The JF-17 is often described by its manufacturer and military observers as an advanced but also cost-effective fighter. It is currently contending with India's Tejas and South Korea's FA-50 in Malaysia's new fighter jet purchase plan, with the JF-17 being the most competitive option, Wei said.

http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1141710.shtml

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## Tank131

pakistanipower said:


> Yes, it possible according to @gambit but might be this capability for US/Russian/Chinese AWACS but definitely our erieye or ZDK-3 have not this capability @Readerdefence



Thats not entirely true. This capability was actually mastered by SAAB and it is a well known functionality of Gripen/Erieye combo where the entire sqd of gripen can fly radar off under the guidance of erieye and it can put the targeting algorithms for missiles carried by gripen. Can also be done with just the lead fighter having radar on with the others flying with radars off. I am certain F-16 amd Erieyes can do the same. Im not sure about JF-17 and ZDK-03 but my suspicion is it can.

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## Fieldmarshal

Tank131 said:


> Thats not entirely true. This capability was actually mastered by SAAB and it is a well known functionality of Gripen/Erieye combo where the entire sqd of gripen can fly radar off under the guidance of erieye and it can put the targeting algorithms for missiles carried by gripen. Can also be done with just the lead fighter having radar on with the others flying with radars off. I am certain F-16 amd Erieyes can do the same. Im not sure about JF-17 and ZDK-03 but my suspicion is it can.





Tank131 said:


> Thats not entirely true. This capability was actually mastered by SAAB and it is a well known functionality of Gripen/Erieye combo where the entire sqd of gripen can fly radar off under the guidance of erieye and it can put the targeting algorithms for missiles carried by gripen. Can also be done with just the lead fighter having radar on with the others flying with radars off. I am certain F-16 amd Erieyes can do the same. Im not sure about JF-17 and ZDK-03 but my suspicion is it can.



they tried it on the 26th n it almost worked n it surely would have worked had our boys followed them into indian territory, only the lead ac got a shot off .....the indians only found out about the presence of our boys after they saw the flashes off our missiles

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## MastanKhan

Tank131 said:


> Thats not entirely true. This capability was actually mastered by SAAB and it is a well known functionality of Gripen/Erieye combo where the entire sqd of gripen can fly radar off under the guidance of erieye and it can put the targeting algorithms for missiles carried by gripen. Can also be done with just the lead fighter having radar on with the others flying with radars off. I am certain F-16 amd Erieyes can do the same. Im not sure about JF-17 and ZDK-03 but my suspicion is it can.




Hi,

How about the awacs locking and launching BVR missiles from the aircraft---and the aircraft flying silent flying stealth---.



Shabi1 said:


> What we've learned from the current scenario is weapon matters more than launch platform. F-7PGs to be replaced by block-3 equipped with Pl-10 and Pl-15 which is equivalent of meteor missile, they would be better suited for airsuperiority. So I would say EFT not needed.



Hi,

Most of you learnt---who did not want to---.

But some of us were telling the most of you for years---that the weapons matter and not the launch platform---EW suite matters---.

We were banging our heads against skulls thick as coconuts shells---.


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## Cuirassier

Wing Commander Nouman Ali Khan looks like he commands the new No.29 Aggressors, and I believe it provided the F16 element in the Feb 27 shootdown. 

Either Sqd Ldr Hassan Siddiqi was a Thunder Driver at WVR or he was also alongwith the Aggressors on F16. That takes us closer to what may have happened. 

JF17s from the CCS or TailChoppers involved in luring in the IAF CAP after strikes on 6 targets, deployed chaff and dropped altitude, thus IAF CAP lost it's signatures and got confused. Ripetime. 

Meanwhile the F16 CAP with WgCdr Noman and wingman SqdLdr Hassan await the IAF jets, both locking on and taking shots. 

Sqd Ldr Hassan getting confirmed kill with BVR AMRAAM on WgCdr Abhi who led the IAF team, and his wingman breaks away towards Riasi and WgCdr Noman assumes a probable kill. 
It's unclear whether he had locked onto the 2nd MiG, or one of the Su30s who were approaching from Udhampur axis. 
The latter seems more possible as IAF accepted it's Su30s were targetted, though their claim of 4-5 AMRAAMs and jamming the missiles is obvious BS as they only found one's remains. The most likely cause of evasion is that it was shot at the edge of it's range, where BVRs get unreliable. 

WgCdr Abhi states in a video that he was looking for his target when our AF shot him down. This implies that at WVR the JF17s who lured the MiGs into the trap had employed evasive tactics, which confused Abhi as he lost their signature. 
Most BVR kills come without warning for the victim, before they know it the missile hits them, a AIM120 quality. 

Any inputs would be appreciated.

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## fatman17

araz said:


> Do you think the full article can be posted here or if not salient features please


Most certainly


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## fatman17

The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) successfully test-fired an indigenously developed range smart weapon from JF-17 multi-role fighter aircraft. The JF-17 Thunder is a single-engine, multi-role combat aircraft developed jointly by the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex and the Chengdu Aircraft Corporation of China. The PAF inducted its first JF-17 squadron in February 2010. The Thunder was part of media attention during recent hostility between Pakistan and India. It was recently reported by CNN that a JF-17 fighter jet brought down an Indian warplane in Azad Jammu and Kashmir. The report contradicted Indian claims that Pakistan used F-16s to down Indian planes.


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## fatman17

Norway will house the world’s first licensed service center to service F-16 fighter jets. Lockheed Martin together with AIM Norway will jointly establish the so called „Falcon Depot“ center for the Royal Norwegian Air Force and other regional F-16 customers. AIM Norway provides maintenance, repair and modification services for fixed wing aircraft, helicopters and field equipment for the Norwegian Armed Forces. Lockheed Martin continues to grow its F-16 customer base and sees new F-16 production opportunities totaling more than 400 aircraft. There are approximately 3,000 operational F-16s in service today with 25 countries.

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## truthseeker2010

TF141 said:


> Wing Commander Nouman Ali Khan looks like he commands the new No.29 Aggressors, and I believe it provided the F16 element in the Feb 27 shootdown.
> 
> Either Sqd Ldr Hassan Siddiqi was a Thunder Driver at WVR or he was also alongwith the Aggressors on F16. That takes us closer to what may have happened.
> 
> JF17s from the CCS or TailChoppers involved in luring in the IAF CAP after strikes on 6 targets, deployed chaff and dropped altitude, thus IAF CAP lost it's signatures and got confused. Ripetime.
> 
> Meanwhile the F16 CAP with WgCdr Noman and wingman SqdLdr Hassan await the IAF jets, both locking on and taking shots.
> 
> Sqd Ldr Hassan getting confirmed kill with BVR AMRAAM on WgCdr Abhi who led the IAF team, and his wingman breaks away towards Riasi and WgCdr Noman assumes a probable kill.
> It's unclear whether he had locked onto the 2nd MiG, or one of the Su30s who were approaching from Udhampur axis.
> The latter seems more possible as IAF accepted it's Su30s were targetted, though their claim of 4-5 AMRAAMs and jamming the missiles is obvious BS as they only found one's remains. The most likely cause of evasion is that it was shot at the edge of it's range, where BVRs get unreliable.
> 
> WgCdr Abhi states in a video that he was looking for his target when our AF shot him down. This implies that at WVR the JF17s who lured the MiGs into the trap had employed evasive tactics, which confused Abhi as he lost their signature.
> Most BVR kills come without warning for the victim, before they know it the missile hits them, a AIM120 quality.
> 
> Any inputs would be appreciated.
> View attachment 545939



JF-17 of HS took down M21 using PL-5
NA F-16 took MKI using AIM-120


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## monitor

Air Marshal Asghar Khan, Then Commander-in-Chief Of Pakistan Air Force Tries Out A Newly Inducted B-57 Bomber, C.1959. Credits #*CombatAviationHistoryOfPakistan*

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## ghazi52



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## fatman17

The latest news suggested that one PAF JF-17 Block II shot down an IAF Mig-21Bison over Kashmir on February 27, 2019, marking its first kill in combat. The latest image (March 2019) indicated that JF-17Block II has been carrying the new PL-15Elong range AAM for testing.
- Last Updated 3/14/18

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## fatman17

Pakistan has now developed a combat version of Super Mushak. The aircraft has been equipped with anti-tank missiles.

Buraq laser guided missiles will also be installed in this aircraft. The targeting capacity has further been improved in this plane. The aircraft will be used for combat purposes for the first time.

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## Devil Soul

*Pakistan unveils yet another military combat aircraft equipped with laser guided and anti tank missiles*
*19 Mar, 2019*



*SHARES*




ISLAMABAD - Pakistan has prepared another military aircraft to use for war purposes after the success of its JF-17 Thunder.

According to details, Pakistan Aeronautical Complex has prepared the latest version of Super Mushak aircrafts. The aircraft will be used for training purposes.


Pakistan FM Shah Mehmood Qureshi leaves for China on an important visit
After the JF-17 Thunder combat aircraft, Pakistan has now developed a fighter version of Super Mushak. The aircraft has been equipped with anti-tank missiles. Buraq laser guided missiles will also be installed in this aircraft. The targeting capacity has further been improved in this plane. The aircraft will be used for combat purposes for the first time.

Since this plane has lower operational cost, it can especially be used in operations against terrorists. Pakistan had earlier achieved a great success by experimenting log-range indigenously developed smart missile from JF-17 Thunder which made the country's defence impregnable and reduced the dependency on other countries.

Pakistan Foreign Minister gives a stern message to Indian PM Modi
The experiment was a great milestone for the country as the weapon has been developed, integrated and qualified solely through indigenous efforts of Pakistani scientists and engineers. The successful trial provided JF-17 Thunder a very potent and assured day and night capability to engage in a variety of targets with pinpoint accuracy.

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## ghazi52

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1108036414179106816

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## Thorough Pro

for training purpose only, this thing won't survive against a rickshaw, does it even have a radar




fatman17 said:


> Pakistan has now developed a combat version of Super Mushak. The aircraft has been equipped with anti-tank missiles.
> 
> Buraq laser guided missiles will also be installed in this aircraft. The targeting capacity has further been improved in this plane. The aircraft will be used for combat purposes for the first time.
> View attachment 547583


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## CriticalThought

Thorough Pro said:


> for training purpose only, this thing won't survive against a rickshaw, does it even have a radar



Or, it can be used against helis and UCAVs.


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## fatman17

Despite Indian complaints to USA, Pakistan has moved the entire F-16 fleet to the Eastern airbases along the borders with India.

Pak-F16. https://t.co/KEy5f45sOQ

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## 1Paki$tani

Thorough Pro said:


> for training purpose only, this thing won't survive against a rickshaw, does it even have a radar



If it has weapon and it has been integrated I guess it has other relevant upgrades required to operate that weapon.



CriticalThought said:


> Or, it can be used against helis and UCAVs.


not just that but for CAS. Have these armed with laser weapon would mean PAF will not have to use main assets for CAS.

Laser guided BURQ will come real handy against enemy tanks or artillery or other formation.


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## CriticalThought

1Paki$tani said:


> If it has weapon and it has been integrated I guess it has other relevant upgrades required to operate that weapon.
> 
> 
> not just that but for CAS. Have these armed with laser weapon would mean PAF will not have to use main assets for CAS.
> 
> Laser guided BURQ will come real handy against enemy tanks or artillery or other formation.



I was talking solely about the heat seeking side-winders.

Typical effective LGBs are in the 500 lb, 1000 lb, and 2000 lb category. Highly unlikely to be seen on SM.

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## aziqbal

honestly I love the F16 

but even now I should say more JF17 over F16

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## Khafee

Gen. (retd) Chuck Horner US & Allied Air Forces commander in Gulf War 1, on PAF:

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/the-un-intended-eye-opener-of-27th-feb.609124/page-14#post-11299427

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## AsianLion

TF141 said:


> Wing Commander Nouman Ali Khan looks like he commands the new No.29 Aggressors, and I believe it provided the F16 element in the Feb 27 shootdown.
> 
> Either Sqd Ldr Hassan Siddiqi was a Thunder Driver at WVR or he was also alongwith the Aggressors on F16. That takes us closer to what may have happened.
> 
> JF17s from the CCS or TailChoppers involved in luring in the IAF CAP after strikes on 6 targets, deployed chaff and dropped altitude, thus IAF CAP lost it's signatures and got confused. Ripetime.
> 
> Meanwhile the F16 CAP with WgCdr Noman and wingman SqdLdr Hassan await the IAF jets, both locking on and taking shots.
> 
> Sqd Ldr Hassan getting confirmed kill with BVR AMRAAM on WgCdr Abhi who led the IAF team, and his wingman breaks away towards Riasi and WgCdr Noman assumes a probable kill.
> It's unclear whether he had locked onto the 2nd MiG, or one of the Su30s who were approaching from Udhampur axis.
> The latter seems more possible as IAF accepted it's Su30s were targetted, though their claim of 4-5 AMRAAMs and jamming the missiles is obvious BS as they only found one's remains. The most likely cause of evasion is that it was shot at the edge of it's range, where BVRs get unreliable.
> 
> WgCdr Abhi states in a video that he was looking for his target when our AF shot him down. This implies that at WVR the JF17s who lured the MiGs into the trap had employed evasive tactics, which confused Abhi as he lost their signature.
> Most BVR kills come without warning for the victim, before they know it the missile hits them, a AIM120 quality.
> 
> Any inputs would be appreciated.
> View attachment 545939




I believe this scenario. Two jets confirmed killed...Mig 21 Bison and Su 30 mki.


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## Hassan Al-Somal

aziqbal said:


> honestly I love the F16
> 
> but even now I should say more JF17 over F16



Anyone conducted evaluation between JF17 block II vs F16?



> The Pakistan Air Force's Chief of Air Staff Sohail Aman in his final speech to Air Headquarters announced that the design of the most recent advanced of the country's JF-17 fighter had been finalised. The Air Force agreed on the final design of the JF-17 Block III after a two and a half years of design work. The fighter is set to provide significantly enhanced capabilities relative to the Block II fighter currently in production, though these improvements will be reflected in the aircraft's cost. *The fighter is set to become the most advanced in production in any Asian state other than China and South Korea, and will be jointly manufactured by the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex and the Aviation Industry Group of China.* Pakistan's Air Force already fields over 100 domestically manufactured JF-17 fighters from Block I and Block II.
> 
> T*he JF-17 Block III is set to integrate an advanced AESA radar capable of tracking fifteen targets and engaging four simultaneously at extreme distances. When armed with sophisticated Chinese built PL-12 air to air missiles, the fighters are able to pose a threat to enemy aircraft at distances of up to 100km, making them arguably more lethal than Pakistan's F-16 fighters which rely on U.S. made AIM-120B missiles which have poorer manoeuvrability and are restricted to a 75km range. Other formidable armaments include the YJ-12, a 400km range anti ship missile with a payload of 200-500kg designed to allow China's fighters to destroy threaten hostile warships including aircraft carriers. Equipping the JF-17 with these missiles does much to compensate for the larger size and more advanced capabilities of the Indian and U.S. Navies by providing critical air support to Pakistan's own Navy.* Long range targeting will be facilitated by advanced Chinese designed KLJ-7A radars, which are produced in the Pakistani town of Kamra north of Islamabad. Block III fighters are also set to integrate significantly improved HMD avionics and an infrared search and tracking system. New engines are also expected to allow the fighter to exceed speeds of Mach 2 for the first time, eclipsing the speeds of the vast majority of several light fighters including the Dassault Rafale, HAL Tejas, F-18E and F-16. The fighter is also set to make a greater use of composite materials, making the airframe more resilient and lighter. Induction of the JF-17 Block III into the Air Force is expected to have started by the end of 2020.



Source: https://militarywatchmagazine.com/a...k-iii-what-to-expect-from-the-new-jet-fighter


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## fatman17

The latest image (March 2019) indicated that first customer of JF-17B (S/N 1707) turned out to be the Myanmar Air Force.
- Last Updated 3/24/19

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## GriffinsRule

Damn they beat PAF to the punch.


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## MIRauf

If JF-17 Block-III is based on JF-17-IIB platform them there could possibly be JF-17 IIIB and the likely reason that PAF is waiting on it. IIIB as a dedicated Strike / SEAD / Growler type rather then as trainer that MAF is getting.

F-16V would make the IAF head spin, even a 16/18 craft order would be a game changer and dampen any superiority IAF may feel when it inducts Rafale.

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## Signalian

An old video of ATLIS -II POD on YF-16. The accuracy achieved through Martin Marietta ATLIS II pod could have prompted PAF to go for Thompson ATLIS II Pod.






PAF F-16 A with Thompson Atlis II POD


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## LKJ86

The general manager of AVIC visited Pakistan on March 21-25, 2019.

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## Ali_Baba

LKJ86 said:


> The general manager of AVIC visited Pakistan on March 21-25, 2019.
> View attachment 549416



I wonder what goodies they are discussing. AESA for Block 1/2s and PL15 upgrades i hope !!!


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## Thorough Pro

@Oscar Can PAF use older F-16 targeting pods like Atlis on Thunders or other PAF fighters?
Do they work stand alone or need integration with other onboard sensors?




Signalian said:


> An old video of ATLIS -II POD on YF-16. The accuracy achieved through Martin Marietta ATLIS II pod could have prompted PAF to go for Thompson ATLIS II Pod.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PAF F-16 A with Thompson Atlis II POD
> 
> View attachment 549386


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## SQ8

Thorough Pro said:


> @Oscar Can PAF use older F-16 targeting pods like Atlis on Thunders or other PAF fighters?
> Do they work stand alone or need integration with other onboard sensors?


Atlis could be used but is no longer done


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## Evora

can any fellow confirm about what AA missile K8 carrying. Is it AIM-9 sidewinder?


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## Path-Finder

Signalian said:


> An old video of ATLIS -II POD on YF-16. The accuracy achieved through Martin Marietta ATLIS II pod could have prompted PAF to go for Thompson ATLIS II Pod.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PAF F-16 A with Thompson Atlis II POD
> 
> View attachment 549386



this looks just like lockheed martin sniper pod.

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## khanasifm

Air war in Kashmir ??

Anything new disclosed ?
https://content.keypublishing.com/central/images/covers/large/7828.jpg


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## Dreamer.

That article is heavily biased towards india! AFM richly deserves cold shoulder from PAF in future. They shouldn't be allowed to cover anything major related to PAF and no more access to anything at any level.

Nothing new at all, in fact many things missing.



khanasifm said:


> Air war in Kashmir ??
> 
> Anything new disclosed ?
> https://content.keypublishing.com/central/images/covers/large/7828.jpg


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## Dreamer.

And perhaps the moderator should also be a little less enthusiastic with copy rights of such biased articles!


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## Fenrir

jupiter2007 said:


> You are right.. Jordan, Netherlands, Denmark, Norway, Portugal, Belgium, Greece and Poland. I think Jordan took delivery of F-16s from Netherlands.
> Singapore announced last year that they are looking to replace the aged F-16s in next 5 years.



Not Norway. It's been decided that rather then refurbishing or reselling the aircraft, costly both monetarily and politically, the 52 F-16s of the RNoAF will be scrapped:

_BODØ AIR STATION, NORWAY – As the Norwegian air force prepares to bring its first three F-35 joint strike fighters to Norwegian soil, the government is taking a simple approach to disposing of its aging F-16 fleet._​_
Rather than trying to deal with the complicated politics of reselling them or paying the cost of maintaining the older fighters as a reserve, the Ministry of Defense plans to scrap its collection fifty-plus Fighting Falcons, officials said during a visit here January 19.​_
https://www.defensenews.com/air/2017/01/27/as-f-35-comes-online-norway-to-scrap-f-16-fleet/







They've been in service since for a long time too. Norway was one of the four original customers of the F-16. And now is one of the original customers and partners of the F-35.

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## jupiter2007

Fenrir said:


> Not Norway. It's been decided that rather then refurbishing or reselling the aircraft, costly both monetarily and politically, the 52 F-16s of the RNoAF will be scrapped:
> 
> _BODØ AIR STATION, NORWAY – As the Norwegian air force prepares to bring its first three F-35 joint strike fighters to Norwegian soil, the government is taking a simple approach to disposing of its aging F-16 fleet.
> Rather than trying to deal with the complicated politics of reselling them or paying the cost of maintaining the older fighters as a reserve, the Ministry of Defense plans to scrap its collection fifty-plus Fighting Falcons, officials said during a visit here January 19._​
> https://www.defensenews.com/air/2017/01/27/as-f-35-comes-online-norway-to-scrap-f-16-fleet/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They've been in service since for a long time too. Norway was one of the four original customers of the F-16. And now is one of the original customers and partners of the F-35.



By July 2019 USA again is going to offer F-16 to Pakistan. Let’s hope we make the right decision.

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## Hassannn85

jupiter2007 said:


> By July 2019 USA again is going to offer F-16 to Pakistan. Let’s hope we make the right decision.



Why not ask China for J-16s! Pretty sure there will be no strings attached compared to F16 deal. Secondly, according to experts it is a potent 4.5 Generation multirole fighter. 3 to 4 squadrons of this plane could help maintain parity with IAF imo.

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## Secret Service

jupiter2007 said:


> By July 2019 USA again is going to offer F-16 to Pakistan. Let’s hope we make the right decision.



What ? if this is true, we should take this opportunity to get maximum benefit. More block 52s or maybe block 60.


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## Zulfiqar

secretservice said:


> What ? if this is true, we should take this opportunity to get maximum benefit. More block 52s or maybe block 60.



Nope. PAF should not buy them unless the price is heavily subsidized.

If we have to pay full price then it is better to add more block 3s or some other system because in a decade these f 16s will be of not much use unless we get v with aesa upgrade and with aim 9xs.

We have 100+ additional aircrafts to replace in next 5-10 years. Better to spend the money in an asset that gives better overall improvement.

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## Ali_Baba

Dreamer. said:


> That article is heavily biased towards india! AFM richly deserves cold shoulder from PAF in future. They shouldn't be allowed to cover anything major related to PAF and no more access to anything at any level.
> 
> Nothing new at all, in fact many things missing.



Have you read the article? how is it biased? PAF has made no official statement, while IAF so that will distort the message of what is being communicated.


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## jupiter2007

Hassannn85 said:


> Why not ask China for J-16s! Pretty sure there will be no strings attached compared to F16 deal. Secondly, according to experts it is a potent 4.5 Generation multirole fighter. 3 to 4 squadrons of this plane could help maintain parity with IAF imo.



1) Russia has to agree to the deal
2) Money??? 65 million each???
3) maintenance and operational cost more than F-16s and JF-17 block 3.

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## Hassannn85

jupiter2007 said:


> 1) Russia has to agree to the deal
> 2) Money??? 65 million each???
> 3) maintenance and operational cost more than F-16s and JF-17 block 3.



With regards to Su35S i was merely discussing a hypothetical scenario. 
J16 is chinese. 
Moreover as jets get more advanced and bigger their operational and maintenance costs usually increase. If you dont like that stick with Mirages.

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## mingle

jupiter2007 said:


> By July 2019 USA again is going to offer F-16 to Pakistan. Let’s hope we make the right decision.


IA combination of F16 with AESA new and old plus JF-17 all BlK3 r enough to counter Rafale too so we can continue with 5th Gen jet.



Hassannn85 said:


> With regards to Su35S i was merely discussing a hypothetical scenario.
> J16 is chinese.
> Moreover as jets get more advanced and bigger their operational and maintenance costs usually increase. If you dont like that stick with Mirages.


Procurement of new jet is very costly we should look for more F16s when infrastructure is already placed we just have to add numbers simple that's the cheap and quickest way along JF-17 blk 3 very deadly combination battle proven as well..

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## Hassannn85

mingle said:


> IA combination of F16 with AESA new and old plus JF-17 all BlK3 r enough to counter Rafale too so we can continue with 5th Gen jet.
> 
> 
> Procurement of new jet is very costly we should look for more F16s when infrastructure is already placed we just have to add numbers simple that's the cheap and quickest way along JF-17 blk 3 very deadly combination battle proven as well..




You're right but i would like us to move away from US weapons steadily. Buying F16s wont help in that regard. But if we have to i hope we go for the latest version being sold to Morocco.

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## mingle

Hassannn85 said:


> You're right but i would like us to move away from US weapons steadily. Buying F16s wont help in that regard. But if we have to i hope we go for the latest version being sold to Morocco.


We will but it's very potent weapon system with expert pilot its deadly. Americans didn't bother when we used them against India at Feb27 and if we buy more they won't bother whom we using against plus they will like to prove that theior tech is best against French and Russians.if they give us good package we should take it

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## princefaisal

jupiter2007 said:


> By July 2019 USA again is going to offer F-16 to Pakistan. Let’s hope we make the right decision.


The right decision will be to upgrade the existing F-16 fleet to V standard through Turkey.

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## Readerdefence

Hi any knowledgeable member can answer the followings Q
1 if we say we want to buy j series Chinese jets (twin engine) member on this forum reply 
Back in negative as these are cloned through Russians technology and need to take out Russian
Approval 
2 so how. PAF can upgrade to V level technology for f16 what about American copy rights & technology Transfer though members talk about Turkish upgrades still even not open any of their 
Jets or install anything without prior USA approval 
Any member with more knowledge can enlighten on this matter 
Thank you


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## Hassannn85

To the senior members of the forum,

Engine technology is critical for any jet fighter/chopper and requires decades of research and huge investment. I was wondering is it possible for PAKISTAN to sign an agreement with Rolls Royce etc. and have jet engines manufactured in Pakistan alongwith transfer of tech. This will obviously cost a lot but is a sure way of expediting the process of self sufficiency in jet engine manufacturing. 

I understand our local industry isnt upto scratch but we have to start somewhere.

We could follow this by another project in helicopter manufacturing just like Algeria has done with Leonardo. 

Manufacturing our own tanks, jets and helis with input/collaboration from China, Turkey, Malaysia, Sweden in Avionics could go a long way.

As far as the *engine* bit goes, guys, do you think it makes sense? If yes, how long before its doable?


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## syed_yusuf

Hassannn85 said:


> To the senior members of the forum,
> 
> Engine technology is critical for any jet fighter/chopper and requires decades of research and huge investment. I was wondering is it possible for PAKISTAN to sign an agreement with Rolls Royce etc. and have jet engines manufactured in Pakistan alongwith transfer of tech. This will obviously cost a lot but is a sure way of expediting the process of self sufficiency in jet engine manufacturing.
> 
> I understand our local industry isnt upto scratch but we have to start somewhere.
> 
> We could follow this by another project in helicopter manufacturing just like Algeria has done with Leonardo.
> 
> Manufacturing our own tanks, jets and helis with input/collaboration from China, Turkey, Malaysia, Sweden in Avionics could go a long way.
> 
> As far as the *engine* bit goes, guys, do you think it makes sense? If yes, how long before its doable?



I totally agree but it will require a government level initive to make Pakistan considerable self sufficient in various engines


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## Vortex

And do you honestly think that they would let us to « master » this crucial technology which jet engine is ?

I have doubts. Very strong doubts.

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## SSGcommandoPAK

Formation of thunder during Myanmar Military Parade !

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## araz

Hassannn85 said:


> To the senior members of the forum,
> 
> Engine technology is critical for any jet fighter/chopper and requires decades of research and huge investment. I was wondering is it possible for PAKISTAN to sign an agreement with Rolls Royce etc. and have jet engines manufactured in Pakistan alongwith transfer of tech. This will obviously cost a lot but is a sure way of expediting the process of self sufficiency in jet engine manufacturing.
> 
> I understand our local industry isnt upto scratch but we have to start somewhere.
> 
> We could follow this by another project in helicopter manufacturing just like Algeria has done with Leonardo.
> 
> Manufacturing our own tanks, jets and helis with input/collaboration from China, Turkey, Malaysia, Sweden in Avionics could go a long way.
> 
> As far as the *engine* bit goes, guys, do you think it makes sense? If yes, how long before its doable?


Your best bet is to piggy back on the Chinese development cycle while getting help from the Russians for critical technology. The likelihood is you will not get anywhere in the short to intermediate future and will have to be reliant for engines on the Chinese/Russians. One reason for it is our small market and the lack of metallurgical expertise and research.
A

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## syed_yusuf

Vortex said:


> And do you honestly think that they would let us to « master » this crucial technology which jet engine is ?
> 
> I have doubts. Very strong doubts.


No body gives u for free 
Pakistan needs to start from some where ?

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## Vortex

syed_yusuf said:


> No body gives u for free
> Pakistan needs to start from some where ?



Yes then we should start studying metallurgy, physics, thermodynamics, engineering etc etc etc sciences.

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## CriticalThought

Readerdefence said:


> Hi any knowledgeable member can answer the followings Q
> 1 if we say we want to buy j series Chinese jets (twin engine) member on this forum reply
> Back in negative as these are cloned through Russians technology and need to take out Russian
> Approval
> 2 so how. PAF can upgrade to V level technology for f16 what about American copy rights & technology Transfer though members talk about Turkish upgrades still even not open any of their
> Jets or install anything without prior USA approval
> Any member with more knowledge can enlighten on this matter
> Thank you



Can you please rephrase your question so it is understandable? Or write in Urdu I will do the translation for you.



Hassannn85 said:


> To the senior members of the forum,
> 
> Engine technology is critical for any jet fighter/chopper and requires decades of research and huge investment. I was wondering is it possible for PAKISTAN to sign an agreement with Rolls Royce etc. and have jet engines manufactured in Pakistan alongwith transfer of tech. This will obviously cost a lot but is a sure way of expediting the process of self sufficiency in jet engine manufacturing.
> 
> I understand our local industry isnt upto scratch but we have to start somewhere.
> 
> We could follow this by another project in helicopter manufacturing just like Algeria has done with Leonardo.
> 
> Manufacturing our own tanks, jets and helis with input/collaboration from China, Turkey, Malaysia, Sweden in Avionics could go a long way.
> 
> As far as the *engine* bit goes, guys, do you think it makes sense? If yes, how long before its doable?



This has been discussed many times on the forum. Here is the jist

1. If you start from scratch, then member messiach estimates 25 years to get something working. Now although you can get it working, my own view is that you will probably run into IP rights issues as soon as you try to sell in the international market. Which means, it will be a venture in net loss into which you will need to keep pumping money.

2. The next suggestion by messiach is to start a JV on gas turbines. The underlying technology is similar for gas turbines and jet engines.

3. Respectable members such as messiach and Oscar have hinted about considerable Russian help to improve RD-93.

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## The Accountant

syed_yusuf said:


> No body gives u for free
> Pakistan needs to start from some where ?


Start by making car engines

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## khanasifm

Available on internet

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## fatman17

Malaysian Air Force is reportedly set to acquire 2 JF-17 for initial evaluation, after the Sino-Pakistani fighter had won its 1st dogfight. Block 2 variants are expected to be delivered by mid 2020, Block 3 v.(w/ AESA radar n helmet-mounted display system) is said to be offered. https://t.co/h9WQ8qIgHG

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## ghazi52

Commander Royal Air Force of Oman Air Vice Marshal Matar Ali Matar Al-Obaidani has lauded the professionalism and achievements of Pakistan Air Force in recent years.

He said this while talking to Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan in Islamabad today.

Various matters of professional interest and regional security came under discussion during the meeting.

The Air Chief offered support and cooperation in the field of aviation and military training to Royal Air Force of Oman.

Both the dignitaries agreed to further augment the bilateral defence cooperation between two countries.

Earlier, Commander Royal Air Force of Oman visited Air Headquarters Islamabad. On arrival, the distinguished guest was presented Guard of Honour by a smartly turned out contingent of Pakistan Air Force.

To pay homage to the martyrs of Pakistan Air Force, Commander Royal Air Force of Oman laid floral wreath at Martyrs' Monument.


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## Ahmet Pasha

Same people giving bases to US navy looking straight up at Gwadar coast.


ghazi52 said:


> Commander Royal Air Force of Oman Air Vice Marshal Matar Ali Matar Al-Obaidani has lauded the professionalism and achievements of Pakistan Air Force in recent years.
> 
> He said this while talking to Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan in Islamabad today.
> 
> Various matters of professional interest and regional security came under discussion during the meeting.
> 
> The Air Chief offered support and cooperation in the field of aviation and military training to Royal Air Force of Oman.
> 
> Both the dignitaries agreed to further augment the bilateral defence cooperation between two countries.
> 
> Earlier, Commander Royal Air Force of Oman visited Air Headquarters Islamabad. On arrival, the distinguished guest was presented Guard of Honour by a smartly turned out contingent of Pakistan Air Force.
> 
> To pay homage to the martyrs of Pakistan Air Force, Commander Royal Air Force of Oman laid floral wreath at Martyrs' Monument.

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## Windjammer

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1113033887503003648

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## HawkEye27

SSGcommandoPAK said:


> Formation of thunder during Myanmar Military Parade !




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1113039342434467847

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## ghazi52

*Four Legends of Pakistan Air Force
*
R to L : Air Marshal Malik Nur Khan, Air Commodore F.S. Hussain, Air Commodore Mitty Masood
and Wg. Cdr Mervyn L. Middlecoat, just before the 65 War in Sargodha.
Photo Courtesy : Lesley Ann Middlecoat

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## Ahmet Pasha

Whats this political fatass doing here???


Windjammer said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1113033887503003648

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## Windjammer

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Whats this political fatass doing here???


He is after all the information minister, possibly being informed on the current scenario.

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## Ahmet Pasha

I generally despise and loathe politicians but ur point makes sense.

Same ones who are initially pro state turn very sub nationalist very quickly.

Me no likey politicians.






Windjammer said:


> He is after all the information minister, possibly being informed on the current scenario.


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## ghazi52

ISLAMABAD - Air Vice Marshal Matar Ali Matar Al Obaidani, Commander Royal Air Force of Oman visited Naval Headquarters and called on Chief of the Naval Staff, Admiral Zafar Mahmood Abbasi.


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## BVR

Pakistan outlines FGFA industrial aims

Jon Grevatt - Jane's Defence Weekly

03 April 2019

Follow

RSS


￼

The Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) is looking to leverage capabilities advanced in building the JF-17 Thunder multirole combat aircraft (pictured) to develop a new fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA). Source: IHS Markit/Patrick Allen

The Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) has outlined ambitious plans to support its development of a fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) - otherwise known in Pakistan as Project AZM.

The PAC enterprise, which is owned and run by the Pakistan Air Force (PAF), has established a new office - the Aviation Research, Indigenization & Development (AvRID) unit - to lead the FGFA programme, it confirmed.

The development programme is supported through Pakistan's development of a new aerospace complex - named 'Aviation City' - that was launched in 2017 to support Project AZM and other national military aerospace requirements.

"The office of DG [Director General] AvRID has been established to transform into reality the [PAF's] air staff vision… with the long-term goal of developing our own fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA)," PAC said on its website.

"[The] development of [the] FGFA would be a major national programme that would entail a massive amount of work, not all of which may possibly be carried out within PAC or even within Pakistan.

"Such large-scale development requires synergetic efforts from a number of industrial (public and private) and academic organisations to fulfill the enormous task," it added.

In order to "manage an engineering development programme of this magnitude", effective technical, engineering, and project management processes need to be established, PAC said.

PAC also outlined several specialist project teams that it will establish in collaboration with other national agencies as part of the Aviation City initiative.

These include an engineering management and support office, an Aviation Design Institute, a Mission Electronics Design Institute, an Aero Structures Design Institute, an Advanced Technologies Centre, and a Flight Test Centre.

PAC states that AvRID will collaborate with and leverage the capabilities of these various Aviation City agencies in undertaking Project AZM. "This [will] put together components of industry and academia to build a high-end research centre to enhance indigenisation capability.





https://www.janes.com/article/87669/pakistan-outlines-fgfa-industrial-aims

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## CriticalThought

BVR said:


> Pakistan outlines FGFA industrial aims
> 
> Jon Grevatt - Jane's Defence Weekly
> 
> 03 April 2019
> 
> Follow
> 
> RSS
> 
> 
> ￼
> 
> The Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) is looking to leverage capabilities advanced in building the JF-17 Thunder multirole combat aircraft (pictured) to develop a new fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA). Source: IHS Markit/Patrick Allen
> 
> The Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) has outlined ambitious plans to support its development of a fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) - otherwise known in Pakistan as Project AZM.
> 
> The PAC enterprise, which is owned and run by the Pakistan Air Force (PAF), has established a new office - the Aviation Research, Indigenization & Development (AvRID) unit - to lead the FGFA programme, it confirmed.
> 
> The development programme is supported through Pakistan's development of a new aerospace complex - named 'Aviation City' - that was launched in 2017 to support Project AZM and other national military aerospace requirements.
> 
> "The office of DG [Director General] AvRID has been established to transform into reality the [PAF's] air staff vision… with the long-term goal of developing our own fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA)," PAC said on its website.
> 
> "[The] development of [the] FGFA would be a major national programme that would entail a massive amount of work, not all of which may possibly be carried out within PAC or even within Pakistan.
> 
> "Such large-scale development requires synergetic efforts from a number of industrial (public and private) and academic organisations to fulfill the enormous task," it added.
> 
> In order to "manage an engineering development programme of this magnitude", effective technical, engineering, and project management processes need to be established, PAC said.
> 
> PAC also outlined several specialist project teams that it will establish in collaboration with other national agencies as part of the Aviation City initiative.
> 
> These include an engineering management and support office, an Aviation Design Institute, a Mission Electronics Design Institute, an Aero Structures Design Institute, an Advanced Technologies Centre, and a Flight Test Centre.
> 
> PAC states that AvRID will collaborate with and leverage the capabilities of these various Aviation City agencies in undertaking Project AZM. "This [will] put together components of industry and academia to build a high-end research centre to enhance indigenisation capability.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.janes.com/article/87669/pakistan-outlines-fgfa-industrial-aims



I have only one reservation. The scope is too broad and no short term goals have been defined. I would prefer to set the SMART goal " In five years PAC will produce an indigenous LIFT platform that will be designed and tested using computational and wind tunnel facilities inside Pakistan". Similarly for later years. In its present form, the initiative is a recipe for disaster.

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Bilal Khan 777 @Oscar @messiach

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## Aryeih Leib

Like Turkey


CriticalThought said:


> I have only one reservation. The scope is too broad and no short term goals have been defined. I would prefer to set the SMART goal " In five years PAC will produce an indigenous LIFT platform that will be designed and tested using computational and wind tunnel facilities inside Pakistan". Similarly for later years. In its present form, the initiative is a recipe for disaster.
> 
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Bilal Khan 777 @Oscar @messiach



Sent from my SM-J600G using Defence.pk mobile app


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## fatman17

The Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) outlined plans for a fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA), Jane’s reports. The FGFA is part of the so called Project AZM. The PAC established a new office to lead the Project AZM. Additionally, a new aerospace complex – named Aviation City, that was launched in 2017 to support Project AZM and other national military aerospace requirements – aids the development program. PAC also outlined several specialist project teams, including an engineering management and support office, an Aviation Design Institute, a Mission Electronics Design Institute, an Aero Structures Design Institute, an Advanced Technologies Center, and a Flight Test Center. that it will establish in collaboration with other national agencies as part of the Aviation City initiative.

Possible country contribution to this project 
China, airframe, avionics, weapons 
Turkey, avionics, weapons 
Russia, engine 
Ukraine, engine 
Italy, avionics

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## Sunny4pak




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## Ultimate Weapon

The Accountant said:


> Start by making car engines


Bike engines would be much easier for a start.


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## The Accountant

Ultimate Weapon said:


> Bike engines would be much easier for a start.


I dont mind but atleast start


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## Shabi1

CriticalThought said:


> I have only one reservation. The scope is too broad and no short term goals have been defined. I would prefer to set the SMART goal " In five years PAC will produce an indigenous LIFT platform that will be designed and tested using computational and wind tunnel facilities inside Pakistan". Similarly for later years. In its present form, the initiative is a recipe for disaster.
> 
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Bilal Khan 777 @Oscar @messiach



It has already been stated in a interview that wind tunnel testing and airframe design will be outsourced to China since they have good facilities there. Pakistan is likely starting out with sub systems design, manufacture and integration for Azm.

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## messiach

Short term platform goals would be implemented through FC-1B an Xprototype sitting at chengdu. 
The question is who will we beg for the fan!!!




CriticalThought said:


> I have only one reservation. The scope is too broad and no short term goals have been defined. I would prefer to set the SMART goal " In five years PAC will produce an indigenous LIFT platform that will be designed and tested using computational and wind tunnel facilities inside Pakistan". Similarly for later years. In its present form, the initiative is a recipe for disaster.
> 
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Bilal Khan 777 @Oscar @messiach

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## MIRauf

Russian or Chinese Fan, if willing ( Russian ) or able ( Chinese ). It likely be twin RD-93 or its Variant, or similar Chinese Twin Engines.

US = Unlikely
French = Bogged down by Indians or US Pressue
UK = Same as France, too much in favor of India, US Pressure.
Ukraine = If they could build one in time, then it be twin engine platform.


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## CriticalThought

messiach said:


> Short term platform goals would be implemented through FC-1B an Xprototype sitting at chengdu.
> The question is who will we beg for the fan!!!



Which is why we should be looking at Ukraine today for an engine for a LIFT platform as well as acquiring IP rights for RD-93 MA. The result should be an indigenous LIFT and a completely indigenous iteration/evolution of JF-17. That is how you slowly build up capability.

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## messiach

If wishes had wings.......



CriticalThought said:


> Which is why we should be looking at Ukraine today for an engine for a LIFT platform as well as acquiring IP rights for RD-93 MA. The result should be an indigenous LIFT and a completely indigenous iteration/evolution of JF-17. That is how you slowly build up capability.

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## CriticalThought

messiach said:


> If wishes had wings.......



The astonishing aspect is that this entire project will cost a lot of money. Instead of pouring money into infrastructure and aviation city, put them into something which gives results, create a core set of people with knowledge and skill andmake them pass it on. Start small and expand on the basis of concrete achievements.


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## messiach

Turbofan R&D should have been initiated 3X decades back, when i very humbly suggested so. Who should be punished now!! MoD, PAF or the wretched, corrupt & incompetent BS baby zakotay. When i name&shame baby zakotay who single-handedly monopolised, criminalised & destroyed water&power generation sector, labelling begins being anti certain group.

Now go begging Sir, what can i do!! @MastanKhan @Oscar @Sinnerman108 



CriticalThought said:


> The astonishing aspect is that this entire project will cost a lot of money. Instead of pouring money into infrastructure and aviation city, put them into something which gives results, create a core set of people with knowledge and skill andmake them pass it on. Start small and expand on the basis of concrete achievements.

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## CriticalThought

messiach said:


> Turbofan R&D should have been initiated 3X decades back, when i very humbly suggested so. Who should be punished now!! MoD, PAF or the wretched, corrupt & incompetent BS baby zakotay. When i name&shame baby zakotay who single-handedly monopolised, criminalised & destroyed water&power generation sector, labelling begins being anti certain group.
> 
> Now go begging Sir, what can i do!!



I am quite sure we can name and shame without egregious over-generalization. But what's done is done. There is no changing the path. We must look to the future. And right now, I am astonished at our plans for the future that don't have any concrete SMART goals. Specific, Measurable, Achievable, Relevant/Realistic, Time Bounded. Without this, we are at risk of pulling off a Tejas or Kaveri, and we cannot afford to do so.


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## SQ8

CriticalThought said:


> I am quite sure we can name and shame without egregious over-generalization. But what's done is done. There is no changing the path. We must look to the future. And right now, I am astonished at our plans for the future that don't have any concrete SMART goals. Specific, Measurable, Achievable, Relevant/Realistic, Time Bounded. Without this, we are at risk of pulling off a Tejas or Kaveri, and we cannot afford to do so.


Not a single PMP is to be found in project management on PAF side

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## CriticalThought

Oscar said:


> Not a single PMP is to be found in project management on PAF side



I just hope relevant people from PAF/PAC will see the discussion here and put some rationality within the plans. I am guessing the success of Thunder has Chinese Project Managers behind it?

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## messiach

You guessed correctly. Add russia to list.



CriticalThought said:


> I am guessing the success of Thunder has Chinese Project Managers behind it?





CriticalThought said:


> I just hope relevant people from PAF/PAC will see the discussion here and put some rationality withint?


There are few and far relevant people. The above divisions are state owned military run administrations.

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## PDF

How long will the development of radar be? Will it be included in Project Azm or will it be limited to JF-17?

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## araz

MIRauf said:


> Russian or Chinese Fan, if willing ( Russian ) or able ( Chinese ). It likely be twin RD-93 or its Variant, or similar Chinese Twin Engines.
> 
> US = Unlikely
> French = Bogged down by Indians or US Pressue
> UK = Same as France, too much in favor of India, US Pressure.
> Ukraine = If they could build one in time, then it be twin engine platform.


The Russians do not have a fan of the RD size which can fit into JFT sized plane. The RD 93MA is not yet on line so we have to wait. The russians will . The Chinese have WS 15 but it is still far away from fruition. This my be one reason J31 has not seen progress.
US is definately out as are the French. The English may be an option via the Turkish but is going to be expensive. So unless we are seeing something spectacular in 5 years from the Chinese we will still be sitting having this conversation. This is the problem I see. There is no solution in the short term and we have left it far too late in the day for developing an industry.
However we must look forward and upwards. This nation has slept for far too long. It must wake up now before all is lost.
A

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## messiach

Thankyou. We agree to disagree.


The Accountant said:


> Ok lets close this topic ...

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## MastanKhan

messiach said:


> Turbofan R&D should have been initiated 3X decades back, when i very humbly suggested so. Who should be punished now!! MoD, PAF or the wretched, corrupt & incompetent BS baby zakotay. When i name&shame baby zakotay who single-handedly monopolised, criminalised & destroyed water&power generation sector, labelling begins being anti certain group.
> 
> Now go begging Sir, what can i do!! @MastanKhan @Oscar @Sinnerman108



Hi,

I will guarantee you one thing---. When I win the lottery---you will have your funds for the machine---.

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## messiach

Even then it would be difficult. Zakootas are everywhere now, in every social strata, far & across races.



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I will guarantee you one thing---. When I win the lottery---you will have your funds for the machine---.

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## Vortex

@messiach sorry to intervene in your discussion but could you explain what you call zakootas ?

Thanks.


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## messiach

I cant stop laughing. @Oscar Could you define a zakoota please.



Vortex said:


> @messiach sorry to intervene in your discussion but could you explain what you call zakootas ?
> 
> Thanks.


----------



## Pakhtoon yum

Vortex said:


> @messiach sorry to intervene in your discussion but could you explain what you call zakootas ?
> 
> Thanks.


A character, which was a jin in an old Pakistani kids show.

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## Vortex

Thanks @Pakhtoon yum.


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## M.AsfandYar

messiach said:


> I cant stop laughing. @Oscar Could you define a zakoota please.


Strange analogy..
I rather liked zakoota

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## CriticalThought

M.AsfandYar said:


> Strange analogy..
> I rather liked zakoota



She is alluding to men of small stature, ugly demeanor, and loud voices.

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## MastanKhan

Vortex said:


> @messiach sorry to intervene in your discussion but could you explain what you call zakootas ?
> 
> Thanks.

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## Vortex

CriticalThought said:


> She is alluding to men of small stature, ugly demeanor, and loud voices.



Now I understand what @messiach was saying. Imagine one instant how tortured I was since she used this name!!! 


@messiach app ney jiinon ko kabbu khar lia hota to Pakistan kidder ponch gaya hota.

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## Ultimate Weapon

These Zakootad tried to stop development of Jf17 too. But didn't succeed.

@messiach wish you had find someone loyal to this nation at that time.

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## messiach

Characters of all sorts, heights, voices far&across in our SG&D services who played a dirty game with power generation in this country.



CriticalThought said:


> She is alluding to men of small stature, ugly demeanor, and loud voices.



I feel the pain bacuase you and so many other like you are in pain and misery becuase of chronic power shortages, industrial standstill and consequent mass unemplyment and rising prices, disruption of basic services in hospitals beacuse of power outages and people dying because of service disruption. These people the zakootas they are your real killers - the killers within.



Vortex said:


> Now I understand what @messiach was saying. Imagine one instant how tortured I was since she used this name!!!
> @messiach app ney jiinon ko kabbu khar lia hota to Pakistan kidder ponch gaya hota.

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## SQ8

messiach said:


> I cant stop laughing. @Oscar Could you define a zakoota please.


Lets see 
“File needs wheels”
“Commissions”
“Eye think we need some more research”
“India isnt doing this so we should not either”
“Tu Punjabi mein Pakhtoon Dilli wala”
“Pehey, pehey do”
“Fatima ke bhai ko le ayein warna kaam nahin hoga”

Not one definition

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## messiach

Thats Classic.



Oscar said:


> Lets see
> “File needs wheels”
> “Commissions”
> “Eye think we need some more research”
> “India isnt doing this so we should not either”
> “Tu Punjabi mein Pakhtoon Dilli wala”
> “Pehey, pehey do”
> “Fatima ke bhai ko le ayein warna kaam nahin hoga”
> 
> Not one definition

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## Sinnerman108

Oscar said:


> Lets see
> “File needs wheels”
> “Commissions”
> “Eye think we need some more research”
> “India isnt doing this so we should not either”
> “Tu Punjabi mein Pakhtoon Dilli wala”
> “Pehey, pehey do”
> “Fatima ke bhai ko le ayein warna kaam nahin hoga”
> 
> Not one definition



We have to change the way departments and thus organizations are setup. 

Our organizational structure is derived from the British Raj era when work was carried out
on paper, and superior officers established their domain in all ways possible.

To develop and deliver 21st century product, we must find and adopt the 21st century way of doing thing.

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## SQ8

Sinnerman108 said:


> We have to change the way departments and thus organizations are setup.
> 
> Our organizational structure is derived from the British Raj era when work was carried out
> on paper, and superior officers established their domain in all ways possible.
> 
> To develop and deliver 21st century product, we must find and adopt the 21st century way of doing thing.


I had offerred to one serving three star and a former chief... was shot down faster than Abhinandan crossing the LoC @messiach

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## Sinnerman108

Oscar said:


> I had offerred to one serving three star and a former chief... was shot down faster than Abhinandan crossing the LoC @messiach



I have had my wings burnt similarly.
It is not reasonable to expect that an officer who is a product of the status quo paradigm to 
understand change and disruption. 

It is the same disease that is burning the whole country,

Study Saudi Arabia's vision 2030. 
It is a very very impressive program, and they are going about it very well as well.

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## AsifIjaz

This is the case across the board in all government departments, ministries and sections.
I have literally educated via presentations and read ups the secretaries and members of a government ministry to enable them to understand the tasks/duties at their hand.. Only for them to judge, oversee and approve/reject files and tasks put forth to them. Thats the level of intelligence in most if not all government departments. Politically motivated appointments of people who have a way with words and with people who can be a threat due to their knowledge. They are aptly named zakutas

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## Khafee

Oscar said:


> I had offerred to one serving three star and a former chief... was shot down faster than Abhinandan crossing the LoC @messiach


Feel your pain bro!



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I will guarantee you one thing---. When I win the lottery---you will have your funds for the machine---.


No amount of funds, can change a psyche.

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## TsAr

Khafee said:


> Feel your pain bro!
> 
> 
> No amount of funds, can change a psyche.


Sad state of affairs, Allah ais mulq ki hifazat karay aur hum par raham...

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## CriticalThought

TsAr said:


> Sad state of affairs, Allah ais mulq ki hifazat karay aur hum par raham...



Aameen


----------



## Chak Bamu

Oscar said:


> Not a single PMP is to be found in project management on PAF side


LOL....

Last year I took a Six Sigma course at Pakistan Institute of Management. I was perhaps the only private individual who took the course; the rest being government employees. The interest level varied considerably among the other participants. As a tax-payer, attitude of some government employees was demoralizing.

Having done a PMP a while back, I can attest that pretty good PM instruction and course is available at PIM. I highly recommend Dr. Samnan's class at PIM Lahore (he may teach at Islamabad too). PAC & PAF should send a few guys for a course. Even a diploma course is good, if PMP certification is a bit much.

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## Sinnerman108

Chak Bamu said:


> LOL....
> 
> Last year I took a Six Sigma course at Pakistan Institute of Management. I was perhaps the only private individual who took the course; the rest being government employees. The interest level varied considerably among the other participants. As a tax-payer, attitude of some government employees was demoralizing.
> 
> Having done a PMP a while back, I can attest that pretty good PM instruction and course is available at PIM. I highly recommend Dr. Samnan's class at PIM Lahore (he may teach at Islamabad too). PAC & PAF should send a few guys for a course. Even a diploma course is good, if PMP certification is a bit much.



PMP is akin to teaching someone what a screw driver is, what a wrench is etc,
it is not reasonable to trust someone to make a space shuttle just by knowing PMP.

This is a side discussion, but I have severe reservations on these PmP types.

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## CriticalThought

Chak Bamu said:


> LOL....
> 
> Last year I took a Six Sigma course at Pakistan Institute of Management. I was perhaps the only private individual who took the course; the rest being government employees. The interest level varied considerably among the other participants. As a tax-payer, attitude of some government employees was demoralizing.
> 
> Having done a PMP a while back, I can attest that pretty good PM instruction and course is available at PIM. I highly recommend Dr. Samnan's class at PIM Lahore (he may teach at Islamabad too). PAC & PAF should send a few guys for a course. Even a diploma course is good, if PMP certification is a bit much.



Project management is a very diverse fiekd. A successful project manager from construction would not be successful in software. But the issue at hand on this thread is how to approach the Azm initiative. Let me generalize it. Given we dont have an aerospace industry in Pakistan, how can we set it up? Do we need a university as a first step? Or is it better to take a handson approach of getting a focus group of people to deliver results and then make them pass on their learning?

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## Aryeih Leib

https://www.tacticalreport.com/view_news/UAE-Pakistan-and-Mirage-2000-9s/5264#sthash.FAj297sf.dpuf

Again ??


----------



## Windjammer

Ronnie k said:


> https://www.tacticalreport.com/view_news/UAE-Pakistan-and-Mirage-2000-9s/5264#sthash.FAj297sf.dpuf
> 
> Again ??


Should read the date of the article.

*UAE*
*Wed, 18 Jan 2017*
*UAE, Pakistan and Mirage 2000-9s*

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## Aryeih Leib

Lesson learned


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## Pakistani Fighter

Ronnie k said:


> Lesson learned
> View attachment 552302


What will Mirage 2K offer new to us?


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## Aryeih Leib

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> What will Mirage 2K offer new to us?


Sir I am a noob in this matter [emoji12]


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## SQ8

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> What will Mirage 2K offer new to us?


An excellent strike aircraft. One we’ve always wanted.

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## TOPGUN

Ronnie k said:


> Lesson learned
> View attachment 552302



How true is this news/source ? anyone ?

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## Aryeih Leib

TOPGUN said:


> How true is this news/source ? anyone ?


Sir article is 2yr's old

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Oscar said:


> An excellent strike aircraft. One we’ve always wanted.


Are these aircraft the last versions developed from the rafale research?

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## SQ8

Sinnerman108 said:


> PMP is akin to teaching someone what a screw driver is, what a wrench is etc,
> it is not reasonable to trust someone to make a space shuttle just by knowing PMP.
> 
> This is a side discussion, but I have severe reservations on these PmP types.


PMP is essentially a validation of what you already know with some structure. 
A non-experienced PMP isn’t worth much.

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## TheDarkKnight

Oscar said:


> An excellent strike aircraft. One we’ve always wanted.


Why would UAE even want to sell these? I dont know how these rumors get generated but they should atleast be plausible.


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## TOPGUN

Ronnie k said:


> Sir article is 2yr's old



Yea, that's what I thought I don't know why people love fanboy stuff.

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## ZedZeeshan

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> What will Mirage 2K offer new to us?


Tech which F7 Miage 3, 5 and F7PG are not offering..!!



TheDarkKnight said:


> Why would UAE even want to sell these? I dont know how these rumors get generated but they should atleast be plausible.


UAE wanted to sell these Planes but deal could nt finalize due to number of reasons..


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## Tps43

Chak Bamu said:


> LOL....
> 
> Last year I took a Six Sigma course at Pakistan Institute of Management. I was perhaps the only private individual who took the course; the rest being government employees. The interest level varied considerably among the other participants. As a tax-payer, attitude of some government employees was demoralizing.
> 
> Having done a PMP a while back, I can attest that pretty good PM instruction and course is available at PIM. I highly recommend Dr. Samnan's class at PIM Lahore (he may teach at Islamabad too). PAC & PAF should send a few guys for a course. Even a diploma course is good, if PMP certification is a bit much.


Paf sends many officers to pims lahore for short courses

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## Talon

TOPGUN said:


> Yea, that's what I thought I don't know why people love fanboy stuff.


But the news of mirage acquisition from Egypt was legit.Wonder what happened to that deal.

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## Khafee

Hodor said:


> But the news of mirage acquisition from Egypt was legit.Wonder what happened to that deal.


With +/- 12 units, is it worth it?

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## Talon

Khafee said:


> With +/- 12 units, is it worth it?


They are in pretty good state so yeah it would be worth it to replace them with some "Khokhaas" we are flying rn.

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## CriticalThought

Oscar said:


> An excellent strike aircraft. One we’ve always wanted.



And a very expensive maintenance nightmare. It would be nice if we evolve our doctrine towards swing role aircrafts. Or fighter bombers such as Flanker.

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## messiach

yes.


CriticalThought said:


> And a very expensive maintenance nightmare. .

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## SQ8

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Are these aircraft the last versions developed from the rafale research?


No. Their electronics are early Rafale or late 1990s

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## Trailer23

Hodor said:


> But the news of mirage acquisition from Egypt was legit.Wonder what happened to that deal.


To my recollection...its just around the time when Egypt had placed an order, becoming the first customer for the Rafales.

I suppose when the deal didn't go through, they ended up upgrading all of their Mirages'.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Oscar said:


> An excellent strike aircraft. One we’ve always wanted.


Probably the easiest platform to integrate Ra'ad, Ra'ad 2, H-2, H-4, REK, and an AShM all in one. If a wish could come true, the Emirati, Qatari and a few French planes plus an upgrade at Leonardo involving an AESA radar.

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## Trailer23

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> If a wish could come true, the Emirati, Qatari and a few French planes plus an upgrade at Leonardo involving an AESA radar.


Since everything is connected to money. And everyone knows where we stand on that (currently).

What would be the difference in the price tag between the Mirage & the F-16 (leaving the upgrades aside)?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Trailer23 said:


> Since everything is connected to money. And everyone knows where we stand on that (currently).
> 
> What would be the difference in the price tag between the Mirage & the F-16 (leaving the upgrades aside)?


I'd reckon the used M2K/-5/-9 would be cheaper upfront, though maintenance costs will mount as the years go on. However, for the PAF it'd be more of a stopgap until Project Azm takes form if anything, so the mounting costs of keeping those planes active might not hurt in the end.

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## MastanKhan

Khafee said:


> Feel your pain bro!
> 
> 
> No amount of funds, can change a psyche.



Hi,

For the rope around the neck does a magical cure---.

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## mingle

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I'd reckon the used M2K/-5/-9 would be cheaper upfront, though maintenance costs will mount as the years go on. However, for the PAF it'd be more of a stopgap until Project Azm takes form if anything, so the mounting costs of keeping those planes active might not hurt in the end.


Rose mirages can be replace with mirage 2k its a decent number both Qatar and UAE plus French air force has M2k as well if Gulf states put pressure on French we can get these planes with leonardo upgrades

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Probably the easiest platform to integrate Ra'ad, Ra'ad 2, H-2, H-4, REK, and an AShM all in one. If a wish could come true, the Emirati, Qatari and a few French planes plus an upgrade at Leonardo involving an AESA radar.


Sir,
The maintenance required by M2K is different to what PAF is flying. With Radar upgrade the integration would require source codes being given out?

With reference to you own article dated 30/11/2017 UAE is upgrading their aircraft so why will they be willing to sell them? These aircraft are already equipped with some advance weapons which PAF had always wanted but could not acquire.

What is the condition of the Brazilian M2K's adding those could give spares?

What if PAF procures J-10's with Leonardo AESA?

https://quwa.org/2017/11/30/uae-moves-upgrade-mirage-2000-9s-strike-capabilities/

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Sir,
> The maintenance required by M2K is different to what PAF is flying. With Radar upgrade the integration would require source codes being given out?
> 
> With reference to you own article dated 30/11/2017 UAE is upgrading their aircraft so why will they be willing to sell them? These aircraft are already equipped with some advance weapons which PAF had always wanted but could not acquire.
> 
> What is the condition of the Brazilian M2K's adding those could give spares?
> 
> What if PAF procures J-10's with Leonardo AESA?
> 
> https://quwa.org/2017/11/30/uae-moves-upgrade-mirage-2000-9s-strike-capabilities/


I understand the maintenance if the 3/5 is different than the M2K, I was referring to integrating Ra'ad etc. But like you said, doesn't matter if the UAE isn't selling. Another option is to get the Qatari ones and then add a few ex-French ones.

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## MIRauf

"What if PAF procures J-10's with Leonardo AESA?" unlikely, same reason as JF-17 and Vixen AESA, Chinese and Italian will need to share codes which neither side is willing. Italian for sharing AESA Tech with Chinese and Chinese letting Italian know of their weapons etc.

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## messiach

Some wishes can be deadly - either way.


Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Probably the easiest platform to integrate Ra'ad, Ra'ad 2, H-2, H-4, REK, and an AShM all in one. If a wish could come true, the Emirati, Qatari and a few French planes plus an upgrade at Leonardo involving an AESA radar.

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## fatman17

Top Guns

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## fatman17

fatman17 said:


> Top Guns
> View attachment 553063


a very historic photograph of our elite fighter pilots who were trained on d american F-104 star fighters in 1962..

of these 13 gallant officers u see in this picture,two,ACM Jamal n ACM hakim rose to become our airforce chiefs..

Out of 13,6 attained shahadat..
Middlecoat got TWO sitara e jurrats,one in 65 n another in 71 before being shot down in 1971 war..

aftab alam created history by shooting d first Indian plane over wazirabad in 65 wid an AIR TO AIR MISSILE..he refused to take his gallantry award from FM ayub khan,stating he did his NATIONAL DUTY by shooting down n Indian plane,that is wat he was trained n paid for,hence he did not deserve d award..

2 became air marshals,
nearly all 13 got gallantry awards in 65 n 71 war..

I don't think anyyyyy similar crowd exists in one single photograph,from any air force history of any country on this planet..

May Allah grant long n healthy lives to d ones who r still among us,n bless the ones who live no more..

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## messiach

V nice and very historic. Great find. ThumbsUp.



fatman17 said:


> Top Guns
> View attachment 553063

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## The Eagle

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1116228065749868544

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

The Eagle said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1116228065749868544


@Oscar that's no small presence. I wonder if something like offsets (by spinning off the AW139 MRO) is on the cards?

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## ZedZeeshan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> @Oscar that's no small presence. I wonder if something like offsets (by spinning off the AW139 MRO) is on the cards?


Vixen 1000

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## Maxpane

fatman17 said:


> Top Guns
> View attachment 553063


historic pic. salute to them

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## mingle

messiach said:


> V nice and very historic. Great find. ThumbsUp.


I met ACM Jamal elder brother Air Com R Najeeb at Toronto he was bigbig fan of Leslie middlecoat I can see tear in his eyes when he was talking about him middlecoat shot down according to him at jamnager area he must have a great bond with him that he feels him even at this age Najeeb is very elderly now needs walker to walk around sometimes u lost someone who is very close to U and u feel him all ur life.



ZedZeeshan said:


> Vixen 1000


Armaachi 346 look pics in background?

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## SQ8

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> @Oscar that's no small presence. I wonder if something like offsets (by spinning off the AW139 MRO) is on the cards?


I see more along electronics

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## mingle

My next Wish list is LM office in Pak F-16 made in Pak along F35 in future replacement .



Oscar said:


> I see more along electronics


Our Air Cheif also wants advance jet trainer with after burner engines could be one reason as well. But if Italians r in then Frenchs r out from Pak defence sector for good .


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## araz

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I understand the maintenance if the 3/5 is different than the M2K, I was referring to integrating Ra'ad etc. But like you said, doesn't matter if the UAE isn't selling. Another option is to get the Qatari ones and then add a few ex-French ones.


I was told the Frogs were asking 60 million per platform for their 59 M2K5s in 2002 although the spares were substantial. With the latest crumbs being picked up of the Indian table they will not be interested in jeoperdising the deal. My take is this is a false news. The time for M2Ks has come and gone.
Onwards to block3 and if required intermediate platform.
A

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## mingle

araz said:


> I was told the Frogs were asking 60 million per platform for their 59 M2K5s in 2002 although the spares were substantial. With the latest crumbs being picked up of the Indian table they will not be interested in jeoperdising the deal. My take is this is a false news. The time for M2Ks has come and gone.
> Onwards to block3 and if required intermediate platform.
> A


60 million for used copy wow French were high on theior French wines even today u can buy brand new F16 at around same price and according to LM F35 price they expecting around 75 million per copy down the road thanks God Pak didn't buy that used jet


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## araz

mingle said:


> 60 million for used copy wow French were high on theior French wines even today u can buy brand new F16 at around same price and according to LM F35 price they expecting around 75 million per copy down the road thanks God Pak didn't buy that used jet


It was with plenty of spares good enough for 15 to 20 years but still too expensive. It might have been their way of saying buy the Rafale instead. It is important to note that inspite of having deeper pockets even IAF has not ventured this way. Even their upgrade programme was a hefty 45 million a pop.

A

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## Trailer23

mingle said:


> My next Wish list is LM office in Pak F-16 made in Pak along F35 in future replacement.


Sorry to disappoint, but 70% of that is already in India.

Lockheed Martin Office with the F-16 wings soon to be developed there.

Nothing F-35 related...


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## ZedZeeshan

mingle said:


> I met ACM Jamal elder brother Air Com R Najeeb at Toronto he was bigbig fan of Leslie middlecoat I can see tear in his eyes when he was talking about him middlecoat shot down according to him at jamnager area he must have a great bond with him that he feels him even at this age Najeeb is very elderly now needs walker to walk around sometimes u lost someone who is very close to U and u feel him all ur life.
> 
> 
> Armaachi 346 look pics in background?


Maybe I cannot disagree with you... But normally companies do put pic of their products in the office..


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## mingle

Trailer23 said:


> Sorry to disappoint, but 70% of that is already in India.
> 
> Lockheed Martin Office with the F-16 wings soon to be developed there.
> 
> Nothing F-35 related...


It's only if India buy theior F16s then they will allow them to produce wings along TATA its a sweetner with deal


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## Trailer23

mingle said:


> It's only if India buy theior F16s then they will allow them to produce wings along TATA its a sweetner with deal


Sadly, i'd have to disagree with you once again.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...-jet-in-india-with-partner-tata-idUSKCN1LK17T





*Lockheed to make wings for F-16 jet in India with partner Tata:*​
September 4, 2018

NEW DELHI (Reuters) - Lockheed Martin will build wings for its F-16 combat plane in India with its local partner, Tata Advanced Systems Limited, an executive at the U.S. company said on Tuesday.

Lockheed is bidding for a contract - estimated at more than $15 billion - to supply the Indian air force with 114 combat planes, which must be all manufactured locally under Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s flagship Make in India program.

*However, Vivek Lall, vice president of strategy and business development at Lockheed, said the proposed Indian production of the F-16 wings would not be contingent upon the company winning the order for the planes.*

“Producing F-16 wings in India will strengthen Lockheed Martin’ strategic partnership with Tata and support Make in India,” the company said in a statement.

Modi has been pushing for local manufacturing that will provide jobs and also end the military’s dependence on imports.

Lockheed’s announcement came just days ahead of top level talks between the United States and India aimed at expanding defense ties.

U.S. Secretary of State Mike Pompeo and Defense Secretary Jim Mattis will meet with Indian Foreign Minister Sushma Swaraj and Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman.

Boeing has pitched its F/A-18 Super Hornet for the Indian contract as well as Sweden’s Saab with its Gripen fighter. France’s Dassault Systemes SE’s Rafale, the Eurofighter Typhoon and Russian aircraft are also in the fray.

Lall said Lockheed had offered to make India its sole F-16 production facility that would supply the Indian military but also other countries. “If India buys the F-16 then it becomes the center of manufacturing for the global market,” he said.

Lall said the company planned to begin production of the F-16 wings in the southern Indian city of Hyderabad from 2020. He said these were being produced at a facility in Israel and would not impact any jobs in the United States.

The Israeli center will continue to be involved in other production, he said. “All F-16 wings globally are to be built in the Hyderabad facility,” he said.

Note: There is some more reading material on the matter on Lockheed Martin's official website...:
https://news.lockheedmartin.com/2017-06-19-Lockheed-Martin-Tata-Announce-F-16-India-Partnership

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## mingle

Trailer23 said:


> Sadly, i'd have to disagree with you once again.
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...-jet-in-india-with-partner-tata-idUSKCN1LK17T
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Lockheed to make wings for F-16 jet in India with partner Tata:*​
> September 4, 2018
> 
> NEW DELHI (Reuters) - Lockheed Martin will build wings for its F-16 combat plane in India with its local partner, Tata Advanced Systems Limited, an executive at the U.S. company said on Tuesday.
> 
> Lockheed is bidding for a contract - estimated at more than $15 billion - to supply the Indian air force with 114 combat planes, which must be all manufactured locally under Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s flagship Make in India program.
> 
> *However, Vivek Lall, vice president of strategy and business development at Lockheed, said the proposed Indian production of the F-16 wings would not be contingent upon the company winning the order for the planes.*
> 
> “Producing F-16 wings in India will strengthen Lockheed Martin’ strategic partnership with Tata and support Make in India,” the company said in a statement.
> 
> Modi has been pushing for local manufacturing that will provide jobs and also end the military’s dependence on imports.
> 
> Lockheed’s announcement came just days ahead of top level talks between the United States and India aimed at expanding defense ties.
> 
> U.S. Secretary of State Mike Pompeo and Defense Secretary Jim Mattis will meet with Indian Foreign Minister Sushma Swaraj and Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman.
> 
> Boeing has pitched its F/A-18 Super Hornet for the Indian contract as well as Sweden’s Saab with its Gripen fighter. France’s Dassault Systemes SE’s Rafale, the Eurofighter Typhoon and Russian aircraft are also in the fray.
> 
> Lall said Lockheed had offered to make India its sole F-16 production facility that would supply the Indian military but also other countries. “If India buys the F-16 then it becomes the center of manufacturing for the global market,” he said.
> 
> Lall said the company planned to begin production of the F-16 wings in the southern Indian city of Hyderabad from 2020. He said these were being produced at a facility in Israel and would not impact any jobs in the United States.
> 
> The Israeli center will continue to be involved in other production, he said. “All F-16 wings globally are to be built in the Hyderabad facility,” he said.
> 
> Note: There is some more reading material on the matter on Lockheed Martin's official website...:
> https://news.lockheedmartin.com/2017-06-19-Lockheed-Martin-Tata-Announce-F-16-India-Partnership


You don't have to agree with me it says will but when Indian Airforce won't use F16s what the purpose of building wing there? It's only relavent when IAF buy F16s otherwise rest of world phasing out F16s.its a joint venture of TATA and LM to bid F16s under make in india theory like Dasso is partner with Ambani in Rafale deal.


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## Trailer23

mingle said:


> You don't have to agree with me it says will but when Indian Airforce won't use F16s what the purpose of building wing there? It's only relavent when IAF buy F16s otherwise rest of world phasing out F16s.its a joint venture of TATA and LM to bid F16s under make in india theory like Dasso is partner with Ambani in Rafale deal.


You know what, now you're acting a bit childish. They've already signed an Agreement. Its on the Lockheed Martin's _official_ website. They've probably begun Construction on the site where they plan on manufacturing those Wings. And yet, there is still no order for the F-21/F-16. And for sure, there won't be an order.

Its just a business deal. Just because India doesn't buy the product they are producing, doesn't mean that they won't buy other things from Lockheed Martin.

For Lockheed Martin its business - for the United States its an opportunity. Try to think about the bigger picture. Donald Trump is trying to prevent American products to be built outside the US, in his 'Make America Great Again', but there are things that even he can't avoid and are out of his hands as the President of the United States.

The US was (technically) supposed to place sanctions on India for purchasing the S-400. They didn't. They were supposed to put a stop to them buying Oil from Iran. They didn't.

Question is...who's playing who, here?

Those wings are just going to be manufactured in India & then be shipped off to South Carolina where they will be assembled onto the F-16's. Its just like the Wings for the B787 Dreamliner are 'Made in Japan'.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Oscar said:


> I see more along electronics


Yep, I guess there are a few major areas.

Fitting the MILGEM and Damen OPVs
Meeting the PN's new multi-mission helicopter requirement
Promoting the M346 Master LIFT to the PAF
Promoting the Kronos radars to the PAF (for replacing the MPDRs)



Trailer23 said:


> You know what, now you're acting a bit childish. They've already signed an Agreement. Its on the Lockheed Martin's _official_ website. They've probably begun Construction on the site where they plan on manufacturing those Wings. And yet, there is still no order for the F-21/F-16. And for sure, there won't be an order.
> 
> Its just a business deal. Just because India doesn't buy the product they are producing, doesn't mean that they won't buy other things from Lockheed Martin.
> 
> For Lockheed Martin its business - for the United States its an opportunity. Try to think about the bigger picture. Donald Trump is trying to prevent American products to be built outside the US, in his 'Make America Great Again', but there are things that even he can't avoid and are out of his hands as the President of the United States.
> 
> The US was (technically) supposed to place sanctions on India for purchasing the S-400. They didn't. They were supposed to put a stop to them buying Oil from Iran. They didn't.
> 
> Question is...who's playing who, here?
> 
> Those wings are just going to be manufactured in India & then be shipped off to South Carolina where they will be assembled onto the F-16's. Its just like the Wings for the B787 Dreamliner are 'Made in Japan'.


I agree.

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## SQ8

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Yep, I guess there are a few major areas.
> 
> Fitting the MILGEM and Damen OPVs
> Meeting the PN's new multi-mission helicopter requirement
> Promoting the M346 Master LIFT to the PAF
> Promoting the Kronos radars to the PAF (for replacing the MPDRs)
> 
> I agree.


EW systems are a key area of interest along with the possibility of working on upgrades to our ground electronics.

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## khanasifm

https://www.c4isrnet.com/industry/2017/12/06/leonardo-works-on-europes-first-fully-digital-radar/


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## ziaulislam

Trailer23 said:


> You know what, now you're acting a bit childish. They've already signed an Agreement. Its on the Lockheed Martin's _official_ website. They've probably begun Construction on the site where they plan on manufacturing those Wings. And yet, there is still no order for the F-21/F-16. And for sure, there won't be an order.
> 
> Its just a business deal. Just because India doesn't buy the product they are producing, doesn't mean that they won't buy other things from Lockheed Martin.
> 
> For Lockheed Martin its business - for the United States its an opportunity. Try to think about the bigger picture. Donald Trump is trying to prevent American products to be built outside the US, in his 'Make America Great Again', but there are things that even he can't avoid and are out of his hands as the President of the United States.
> 
> The US was (technically) supposed to place sanctions on India for purchasing the S-400. They didn't. They were supposed to put a stop to them buying Oil from Iran. They didn't.
> 
> Question is...who's playing who, here?
> 
> Those wings are just going to be manufactured in India & then be shipped off to South Carolina where they will be assembled onto the F-16's. Its just like the Wings for the B787 Dreamliner are 'Made in Japan'.


but manufacture wings for whom, aliens..no one is buying any more f16s by time its setup all of last orders will be fullfilled

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## Hassannn85

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/b...brew-f-15j-eagles-pay-more-stealth-jets-52167

Is that "Southeast nation" us?


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## Trailer23

ziaulislam said:


> but manufacture wings for whom, aliens..no one is buying any more f16s by time its setup all of last orders will be fullfilled


Well, that is another debate...
But think about it. At one point, the F-16 was done for sure. Infact, the last F-16 that was built in Texas was meant to be for Iraq. Curtains. Or so we thought.

They moved the assembly line to South Carolina and all of a sudden there is an interest in the F-16's - again.
Bahrain, Slovakia and even Croatia...wanted used ones. *Yesterday* the Royal Moroccan Air Force placed an order.

One has to admit that there is something about the F-16 that nations want to keep going back to (Bahrain & Morocco).

Look, i'm not thrilled that our moral enemy is building those wings, but one can't deny that the F-16 is back on the Block and competing with the likes of Rafales, Gripens, EFT etc...


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## Thorough Pro

a permanent presence in the country through local office means some long term projects, probably some involvement in new technologies related to project AZM. @Oscar @Bilal Khan 777 @Khafee 



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> @Oscar that's no small presence. I wonder if something like offsets (by spinning off the AW139 MRO) is on the cards?

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## Trailer23

Thorough Pro said:


> a permanent presence in the country through local office means some long term projects, probably some involvement in new technologies related to project AZM. @Oscar @Bilal Khan 777 @Khafee


Have there been any Tenders gone out to indicate the progress?

You see the Turkish TF-X programme has been on halt for a quite a while. Rolls Royce engines have backed off because of involvement because Qatari backing.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Trailer23 said:


> Have there been any Tenders gone out to indicate the progress?
> 
> You see the Turkish TF-X programme has been on halt for a quite a while. Rolls Royce engines have backed off because of involvement because Qatari backing.


If there are any tenders, they won't be available to the public -- basically a way to guard these projects from outside interference. @Oscar if electronics is the focus, I hope we look at getting Leonardo to broker the sale and transfer of Targo/JHMCS II HMD/S for the JF-17 (Leonardo is already brokering Elbit's tech on the M346).



Trailer23 said:


> Well, that is another debate...
> But think about it. At one point, the F-16 was done for sure. Infact, the last F-16 that was built in Texas was meant to be for Iraq. Curtains. Or so we thought.
> 
> They moved the assembly line to South Carolina and all of a sudden there is an interest in the F-16's - again.
> Bahrain, Slovakia and even Croatia...wanted used ones. *Yesterday* the Royal Moroccan Air Force placed an order.
> 
> One has to admit that there is something about the F-16 that nations want to keep going back to (Bahrain & Morocco).
> 
> Look, i'm not thrilled that our moral enemy is building those wings, but one can't deny that the F-16 is back on the Block and competing with the likes of Rafales, Gripens, EFT etc...


The Block-70/72 shares the same engine and airframe components as the Block-50/52, itself a very popular and widely used model. So the lifecycle costs are probably very competitive.

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## mingle

ziaulislam said:


> but manufacture wings for whom, aliens..no one is buying any more f16s by time its setup all of last orders will be fullfilled


That's my argument when EU and other phasing F16s what TATA gona do with that wing?? Pak not gona buy that it's only feseable if IAF order jets from LM


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## CriticalThought

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> If there are any tenders, they won't be available to the public -- basically a way to guard these projects from outside interference. @Oscar if electronics is the focus, I hope we look at getting Leonardo to broker the sale and transfer of Targo/JHMCS II HMD/S for the JF-17 (Leonardo is already brokering Elbit's tech on the M346).
> 
> 
> The Block-70/72 shares the same engine and airframe components as the Block-50/52, itself a very popular and widely used model. So the lifecycle costs are probably very competitive.



Is it possible that PAC will become a system integrator for Leonardo products on JF-17? This move could be the first step towards Thunder sales with European avionics?

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

CriticalThought said:


> Is it possible that PAC will become a system integrator for Leonardo products on JF-17? This move could be the first step towards Thunder sales with European avionics?


It depends. If we're talking about the cockpit, human machine interface (HMI), EW/ECM, etc, then not only are export sales doable, but the PAF would apply that Western tech to its own JF-17s too.

However, if we're talking about radars, such as the Vixen or the Grifo E, then it's a tough task as that'd require a non-Chinese source for BVRAAM and AShM. I used to underestimate this part of the process, but it appears to be pretty expensive and time-consuming. If the JF-17 is competing on price, then the best approach is to always offer the solution available at no extra integration cost or time (i.e., today). 

So in sum, a European avionics and EW/ECM suite are quite plausible (if not likely), but a radar is unlikely. The only way the PAF could make the radar a Western radar a factor is by having its own first-party BVRAAM and AShM; this is why I hope reports of working on this front with Turkey's Roketsan are true...

_As part of the agreement, Rokestan AS, an establishment of the Turkish Armed Force Foundation, is expected to assist Pakistan with air-to-air, ground-to-ground and anti-tank UMTAS and OMTAS missile technology.
_
https://tribune.com.pk/story/1857733/8-turkey-provide-cybersecurity/​

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## CriticalThought

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It depends. If we're talking about the cockpit, human machine interface (HMI), EW/ECM, etc, then not only are export sales doable, but the PAF would apply that Western tech to its own JF-17s too.
> 
> However, if we're talking about radars, such as the Vixen or the Grifo E, then it's a tough task as that'd require a non-Chinese source for BVRAAM and AShM. I used to underestimate this part of the process, but it appears to be pretty expensive and time-consuming. If the JF-17 is competing on price, then the best approach is to always offer the solution available at no extra integration cost or time (i.e., today).
> 
> So in sum, a European avionics and EW/ECM suite are quite plausible (if not likely), but a radar is unlikely. The only way the PAF could make the radar a Western radar a factor is by having its own first-party BVRAAM and AShM; this is why I hope reports of working on this front with Turkey's Roketsan are true...
> 
> _As part of the agreement, Rokestan AS, an establishment of the Turkish Armed Force Foundation, is expected to assist Pakistan with air-to-air, ground-to-ground and anti-tank UMTAS and OMTAS missile technology.
> _
> https://tribune.com.pk/story/1857733/8-turkey-provide-cybersecurity/​



As far as Western equipment is concerned, it follows widely published standards that define how information is interexchanged. This is true even for Western radars. The only problem would be if a radar encrypted the data bring sent on the bus, but I am not sure any radar actually does this. Then again, I am no expert on the matter.

But Turkish missiles paired with Italian avionics sounds like a dream. I look forward to a Thunder sale with this equipment.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

ziaulislam said:


> but manufacture wings for whom, aliens..no one is buying any more f16s by time its setup all of last orders will be fullfilled





mingle said:


> That's my argument when EU and other phasing F16s what TATA gona do with that wing?? Pak not gona buy that it's only feseable if IAF order jets from LM


F-16's would be operational in regions like Africa and South America for some time. LM is smart they want India to make these wings to keep the costs low making it a potential best seller in the above mentioned continents.


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## fatman17

araz said:


> I was told the Frogs were asking 60 million per platform for their 59 M2K5s in 2002 although the spares were substantial. With the latest crumbs being picked up of the Indian table they will not be interested in jeoperdising the deal. My take is this is a false news. The time for M2Ks has come and gone.
> Onwards to block3 and if required intermediate platform.
> A


French will not sell offensive war materials to Pakistan anymore.

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## mingle

fatman17 said:


> French will not sell offensive war materials to Pakistan anymore.


We don't need overpriced war material as well thanks

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## ziaulislam

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> F-16's would be operational in regions like Africa and South America for some time. LM is smart they want India to make these wings to keep the costs low making it a potential best seller in the above mentioned continents.


Which African country name 1. Akso name South American country 
Countries either need none or operate some other or won't be given any ...


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## ACE OF THE AIR

ziaulislam said:


> Which African country name 1. Akso name South American country
> Countries either need none or operate some other or won't be given any ...


So fat there is only one country in South America that is operating F-16's but as soon more F-16's are available in the market Restrictions will be removed paving the way for exports to all theses countries. Moreover with Russia and China making inroads in infrastructure and transport sectors these countries would have enough cash to buy & maintain the F-16 well into 2080. 
You well know PAF has been operating the Mirages for over 50 yrs. Recently the tests regarding structure for F-16 were conducted where these airframs out performed their designed life. Also this developed life enhancement modules which would help LM to keep F-16's flying till the next century in areas where people are still flying on DC-3's today.


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## GriffinsRule

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> So fat there is only one country in South America that is operating F-16's but as soon more F-16's are available in the market Restrictions will be removed paving the way for exports to all theses countries. Moreover with Russia and China making inroads in infrastructure and transport sectors these countries would have enough cash to buy & maintain the F-16 well into 2080.
> You well know PAF has been operating the Mirages for over 50 yrs. Recently the tests regarding structure for F-16 were conducted where these airframs out performed their designed life. Also this developed life enhancement modules which would help LM to keep F-16's flying till the next century in areas where people are still flying on DC-3's today.



Chile and Venezuela both have F-16s in South America. The former can barely afford to feed its people right now with hyperinflation and the later has no need for additional. Other countries in South America have either gone for French (Brazil) or are broke too (like Argentina). 

In Africa, Morocco and Egypt have F-16s. Libya is in no shape to get anything and eventually will buy French. South Africa can not afford anything bar the few Grippens they already have. Algerians are in the Russian camp and already operate Mig-29s and Su-30s etc. Nigeria is barely able to afford the JF-17. There are no other real takers in the continent.


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## Ali_Baba

ZedZeeshan said:


> Vixen 1000



If Pakistan gets a Leonardo AESA radar with associated avionics suite, then can Pakistan also get the Meteor missile ? Would be an interesting variant for sure and really mix up Indian planning and reactions to fast developing aerial tactical situations. ie are they facing a chinese avionice system, turkish or italian !!! Which missile is gonna come at them. All in the same airframe.

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## araz

fatman17 said:


> French will not sell offensive war materials to Pakistan anymore.


Fully agreed. The cards are now on the table and the sides are drawn. The poodle will follow its master. The bigger threat is China and there will be a lot of effort to contain that behemoth because the western industrial complex purely on financial and manpower basis cannot compete. They have the technology but the cost input is fast becoming prohibitive for the minions they want to fight amongst themselves to keep their defence industries going.
A

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## pkd

The Eagle said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1116228065749868544





Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> @Oscar that's no small presence. I wonder if something like offsets (by spinning off the AW139 MRO) is on the cards?





Oscar said:


> I see more along electronics




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1116683115018235904

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1116588339954536448

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## Maxpane

pkd said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1116683115018235904
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1116588339954536448


interesting

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## mingle

Maxpane said:


> interesting


Italians and Turks r In French are Out.

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## volatile

Italy wants to be part of Export orders

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## mingle

volatile said:


> Italy wants to be part of Export orders


Yes we incorporate theior electronics in mirages and JF-17 as well.

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## Keysersoze

Quick off topic post. What is the starting serial number for the JF17?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

volatile said:


> Italy wants to be part of Export orders


To an extent, but mostly interested in PAF orders as those would make up the majority of all JF-17 production.

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## mingle

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> To an extent, but mostly interested in PAF orders as those would make up the majority of all JF-17 production.


For navy probably submarine as @Rafi said midget subs ship electronic but I see italians being our EU partner. Billal u see any scope of EF which italians have? Or long range SAM system like Aster??

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## HRK

Keysersoze said:


> What is the starting serial number for the JF17?


07-101

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## GriffinsRule

Interesting to see 08-106 in primer. Maybe freshly overhauled.

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## ziaulislam

Trailer23 said:


> Well, that is another debate...
> But think about it. At one point, the F-16 was done for sure. Infact, the last F-16 that was built in Texas was meant to be for Iraq. Curtains. Or so we thought.
> 
> They moved the assembly line to South Carolina and all of a sudden there is an interest in the F-16's - again.
> Bahrain, Slovakia and even Croatia...wanted used ones. *Yesterday* the Royal Moroccan Air Force placed an order.
> 
> One has to admit that there is something about the F-16 that nations want to keep going back to (Bahrain & Morocco).
> 
> Look, i'm not thrilled that our moral enemy is building those wings, but one can't deny that the F-16 is back on the Block and competing with the likes of Rafales, Gripens, EFT etc...


No doubt f16b70 trumps rafale/typhoon but with f35 cost running down the traditional allies dont need it..so few arab countirs are left..i doubt you will see anymore orders..bahrain Morocco were expected orders before the line closes..there onoy two other possible candidates ..taiwan and Pakistan

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## mingle

ziaulislam said:


> No doubt f16b70 trumps rafale/typhoon but with f35 cost running down the traditional allies dont need it..so few arab countirs are left..i doubt you will see anymore orders..bahrain Morocco were expected orders before the line closes..there onoy two other possible candidates ..taiwan and Pakistan


Jiger that's my point u moving plant for 100 wings max not a good idea



ziaulislam said:


> No doubt f16b70 trumps rafale/typhoon but with f35 cost running down the traditional allies dont need it..so few arab countirs are left..i doubt you will see anymore orders..bahrain Morocco were expected orders before the line closes..there onoy two other possible candidates ..taiwan and Pakistan


I doubt on Taiwan too if us and China got trade agreement Taiwan had very low chance for new F-16 only pak left make in Pak


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

mingle said:


> For navy probably submarine as @Rafi said midget subs ship electronic but I see italians being our EU partner. Billal u see any scope of EF which italians have? Or long range SAM system like Aster??


Leonardo is just one Italian company, the submarine issue is with DRASS, another company. Besides that, you also have Elettronica, which specializes in EW/ECM tech and has been promoting that to Pakistan for some time.

As for new fighters, besides some news reports and the previous CAS saying the PAF needs new fighters, I don't know what the PAF will do -- or can do -- for something before Project Azm. The PAF could try leasing second hand Typhoon T1s from Italy, Spain and/or UK as a stopgap until Project Azm.

The T1 isn't much better than the Block-52+, but from a big picture lens, it'd at least shore-up medium-weight jet numbers and give a perceptual boost (i.e., make the IAF worry a bit more). The Consortium might even be willing to offer the T1s on lease for a discount if the PAF could order 18~24 new-build T3s, but that'd cost $5-6 bn.

But the T1 in of itself really doesn't do much for the PAF, it'd be the T3 with the MBDA Meteor and unrestricted SOW/ALCM compatibility that would matter, but it's prohibitively expensive.

As for long-range SAMs. I think it's either China or wait for Turkey's SIPER. Personally, I'd rather we save the money and get a proper hit-to-kill capable system such as the SIPER in around the same timeframe as Project Azm.

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## mingle

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Leonardo is just one Italian company, the submarine issue is with DRASS, another company. Besides that, you also have Elettronica, which specializes in EW/ECM tech and has been promoting that to Pakistan for some time.
> 
> As for new fighters, besides some news reports and the previous CAS saying the PAF needs new fighters, I don't know what the PAF will do -- or can do -- for something before Project Azm. The PAF could try leasing second hand Typhoon T1s from Italy, Spain and/or UK as a stopgap until Project Azm.
> 
> The T1 isn't much better than the Block-52+, but from a big picture lens, it'd at least shore-up medium-weight jet numbers and give a perceptual boost (i.e., make the IAF worry a bit more). The Consortium might even be willing to offer the T1s on lease for a discount if the PAF could order 18~24 new-build T3s, but that'd cost $5-6 bn.
> 
> But the T1 in of itself really doesn't do much for the PAF, it'd be the T3 with the MBDA Meteor and unrestricted SOW/ALCM compatibility that would matter, but it's prohibitively expensive.
> 
> As for long-range SAMs. I think it's either China or wait for Turkey's SIPER. Personally, I'd rather we save the money and get a proper hit-to-kill capable system such as the SIPER in around the same timeframe as Project Azm.


I believe after this skirmishes with IAF we need to invest more in military to build more mussle because I don't see prospects of peace if Modi win again they got bloody nose they will come back again. EF Or more F16s is way to go along jf17 need bigger and modern airforce with pack of punch along strong army and Navy if they back make them bleed again.

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## fatman17

Chinese CAC JF-17 Thunder aircraft under CM-400/AKG Missile integration trials. This weapon has a hypersonic impact velocity. It is believed to be capable of destroying a moving aircraft carrier from a range of 250km. This weapon is now in service with Pakistan Air Force. https://t.co/r6xVikb7rw

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## The Eagle

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> @Oscar that's no small presence. I wonder if something like offsets (by spinning off the AW139 MRO) is on the cards?



Actually, the chatter suggests that it all started with CPEC interest. We can expect some JV, Thunder progress/participation, AZM & Naval side because (Leonardo) met CNS as well.


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## Zee-shaun



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## Trailer23

ziaulislam said:


> No doubt f16b70 trumps rafale/typhoon but with f35 cost running down the traditional allies dont need it..so few arab countirs are left..i doubt you will see anymore orders..bahrain Morocco were expected orders before the line closes..there onoy two other possible candidates ..taiwan and Pakistan


I'd have to disagree with you & @mingle here. I didn't know Morocco was an expected order, to begin with. A week back if someone would have mentioned them, none of us would've blinked.

I sense there is more life left in the F-16's & we may see a Block 80/82 a decade from now. I haven't really seen the numbers as to how low they are going on the F-35, but either someone said OR I read that the US is not offering Stealth Coating on all Export variants. The US also expects to have that one Fighter Jets to counter the usual suspects: Rafales, Gripens & Euro Fighters. I don't see anyone taking interest in the F-18 Super Hornet.

Still putting Pakistan in the block of expected orders is pipe dream which may never become a reality. We'll be lucky if we [ever] pick up used ones.

Finally, Slovakia may be one of a few Eastern European countries that may be interested in the F-16's - looking to replace the Soviet-era jets in their inventory. They're already in the EU and want to be in the good graces of the US. Romania picked up used ones - Portugal and Poland had bought them directly from the US.

Note: I think marketing the F-21 won't stop with India. The US has nothing to offer India as far as jets are concerned: F-21 & F-18 Super Hornet. I doubt the F-15 Strike Eagle has even been on the discussion table.


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## Pakistani Fighter

fatman17 said:


> Chinese CAC JF-17 Thunder aircraft under CM-400/AKG Missile integration trials. This weapon has a hypersonic impact velocity. It is believed to be capable of destroying a moving aircraft carrier from a range of 250km. This weapon is now in service with Pakistan Air Force. https://t.co/r6xVikb7rw
> View attachment 553415


Can these two missiles sink IN Vikramaditiya??


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## Trailer23

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Can these two missiles sink IN Vikramaditiya??


Does it even leave the harbor?

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## Pakistani Fighter

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> To an extent, but mostly interested in PAF orders as those would make up the majority of all JF-17 production.





Trailer23 said:


> Does it even leave the harbor?


If it does and comes to Pakistan waters and JF 17 fires both CM 400 at it. Will it sink?


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## araz

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> If it does and comes to Pakistan waters and JF 17 fires both CM 400 at it. Will it sink?


It might not sink but get criplled badly. That in its own right will make it a sitting duck in unfriendly waters.
A

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## Army research

araz said:


> It might not sink but get criplled badly. That in its own right will make it a sitting duck in unfriendly waters.
> A


Even if one supersonic cm400 hits , the deck is gurrsteed to be put of action so a it will be left toothless , and since the purpose of aircraft carrier is to provide air cover where aircraft from land based air bases cannot reach, the whole Indian aircraft carrier group will be left in the open either to run away or face salvos upon salvos of air craft with more cm400, c302 , c802, harpoons and excocets , not a ideal position,
2 cm400s would almost definitely either kill enough crew, equipment or power to knock out , disable or maybe sink it should it be a bow hit

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## Quwa

Army research said:


> Even if one supersonic cm400 hits , the deck is gurrsteed to be put of action so a it will be left toothless , and since the purpose of aircraft carrier is to provide air cover where aircraft from land based air bases cannot reach, the whole Indian aircraft carrier group will be left in the open either to run away or face salvos upon salvos of air craft with more cm400, c302 , c802, harpoons and excocets , not a ideal position,
> 2 cm400s would almost definitely either kill enough crew, equipment or power to knock out , disable or maybe sink it should it be a bow hit


The CM-400AKG is basically an air-launched rocket or mini-ballistic missile.

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## Trailer23

The question was: *would it sink it?*

Now i'm not an expert on the _Laws of Physics_...

But who said anything about hitting the deck &/or crippling it...

Go for the base. A hole in one, if you may. That most certainly will take it down to the Ocean Floor.

India would NEVER venture by bringing it at striking distance of Pakistan or China. Lets put the loss of life aside. They'd lose various Jets & Choppers in the process too.


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## araz

Trailer23 said:


> The question was: *would it sink it?*
> 
> Now i'm not an expert on the _Laws of Physics_...
> 
> But who said anything about hitting the deck &/or crippling it...
> 
> Go for the base. A hole in one, if you may. That most certainly will take it down to the Ocean Floor.
> 
> India would NEVER venture by bringing it at striking distance of Pakistan or China. Lets put the loss of life aside. They'd lose various Jets & Choppers in the process too.


It has a high flying trajectoryfrom which it tumbles down towards the AC at great speed. So it will invariably hit the deck.
A

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## CriticalThought

Trailer23 said:


> The question was: *would it sink it?*
> 
> Now i'm not an expert on the _Laws of Physics_...
> 
> But who said anything about hitting the deck &/or crippling it...
> 
> Go for the base. A hole in one, if you may. That most certainly will take it down to the Ocean Floor.
> 
> India would NEVER venture by bringing it at striking distance of Pakistan or China. Lets put the loss of life aside. They'd lose various Jets & Choppers in the process too.



You are displaying an ignorance of AC design and modern naval design. They are compartmentalized such that even a hull breach causes only localized flooding. There will be sealing doors everywhere to cater to such an event. It is extremely hard to sink an aircraft carrier.

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## Trailer23

CriticalThought said:


> It is extremely hard to sink an aircraft carrier.


Extremely hard...(maybe)...but can you rule out _impossible_ (with absolute certainty).


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## Army research

Trailer23 said:


> Extremely hard...(maybe)...but can you rule out _impossible_ (with absolute certainty).


There's no program to only hit the bottom middle deck especially for a top attack missile ,



Quwa said:


> The CM-400AKG is basically an air-launched rocket or mini-ballistic missile.


They sheer kinetic power would probably give disabling ptsd even if it were to land next to the AC


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## fatman17

C4iSR: Joint & Common Equipment

Saab delivers radar equipment to Pakistan Air Force

Gabriel Dominguez, London - Jane's Defence Weekly

15 April 2019

Follow

RSS


Defence and security company Saab delivered three sets of radar equipment to Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Base Nur Khan (Chaklala) on 9 April, according to the information provided by the Pakistan Import Export Trade Database.

Although not specified by the website, it is possible that the Swedish company delivered three Erieye airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) radar systems for fitment onto an equal number of twin-engined Saab 2000 aircraft that were handed over to Pakistan's Directorate General Defence Purchase in 2018, according to aircraft sales specialist Skyworld Aviation.

In a 26 June statement Skyworld Aviation announced that the aircraft had previously been in operation with Sweden-based BRA Braathens Regional Airlines.

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## Aryeih Leib

https://quwa.org/2019/04/16/project...es-tender-for-data-link-items-for-male-uav-2/


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## fatman17

SAAB certified PAC Kamra for all future repairs or modifications to SAAB 2000 airplanes and Ericsson Erieye AEW&C systems. 
Any repairs or modifications done by PAC Kamra will be deemed at the same or higher level as if done by the manufacturer themselves. https://t.co/NdKaVIhldq

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## fatman17

The PAF is set to receive a batch of Egyptian Air Force Mirage Vs over the coming months. It’s a deal that has been under negotiation for a couple of years now. But has now been sealed. The bulk will be used to support current fleet but we could see some becoming operational too.

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## fatman17

The CAS confirmed the Su-30MKI kill in addition to the MiG-21 Bison. Also added that the IAF Mi-17 that was lost was shot down by its own side possibly by a MiG-21, in a ‘red on red’ incident. He reiterated that no PAF F-16 pwas lost.
Alan Warnes source.

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## fatman17

fatman17 said:


> The PAF is set to receive a batch of Egyptian Air Force Mirage Vs over the coming months. It’s a deal that has been under negotiation for a couple of years now. But has now been sealed. The bulk will be used to support current fleet but we could see some becoming operational too.


Source Alan Warnes

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## BVR

See the tenders at PAC website.

https://www.pac.org.pk/tenders


Mirage 5 spare buying

'2 engine test centre'

Male UAV
Datalink parts

Jf-17 new ware house

3d printer

3d scanner

And much more to follow......

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## BVR

PAC is also going to become secure like Area 51. 
look the tender 
https://www.pac.org.pk/assets/files/admin_pc-91.pdf

Procurement of tower for thermal camera

Procurement of Camouflage Nets 

https://www.pac.org.pk/assets/files/log-pc-95_03_line_items_18-19.pdf

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## fatman17

Catching up from last week at the first ⁦@Saudiairshow⁩ models of the Chinese designed AR-1 and FT-9 bombs were seen next to the PSATRI Sakar-4. Footage at their stand showed both hitting the targets during a test-firing. https://t.co/1WP9UM397g

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## ghazi52

RAF Headquarters, Main Gate Peshawar in 1940's

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## Aryeih Leib

https://m.theepochtimes.com/russia-...Yz4WeoRdaEMEjA31fQot0wxCqgod2r9iZHgAJ4ymQdrzI

Valued insight of senior members


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## fatman17

Ronnie k said:


> https://m.theepochtimes.com/russia-...Yz4WeoRdaEMEjA31fQot0wxCqgod2r9iZHgAJ4ymQdrzI
> 
> Valued insight of senior members
> View attachment 554269


Won't happen. No sales of offensive weapons. Helos maybe

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## Aryeih Leib

Sir Russia is selling S400 to Turkey a NATO ally and responsible for shooting down their plane not so long ago 
Russia can sell anything to anyone


fatman17 said:


> Won't happen. No sales of offensive weapons. Helos maybe


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## fatman17

Ronnie k said:


> Sir Russia is selling S400 to Turkey a NATO ally and responsible for shooting down their plane not so long ago
> Russia can sell anything to anyone


Yes, however India is still important to Russia for arms sales. This is my humble opinion.

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## Danish Moazzam

The situation vis a vis India/Pakistan is very different for Russia, so there is slim possibilities. Deals might be brokered via China if anything is done.


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## Ali_Baba

India is a declining market for Russia as India starts to shop elsewhere(most of her recent deals have been with the USA, UK, France, Germany). Russia needs to act, to save her industry.


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## sathya

Ali_Baba said:


> India is a declining market for Russia as India starts to shop elsewhere(most of her recent deals have been with the USA, UK, France, Germany). Russia needs to act, to save her industry.



S400, AK 203, 4 frigate s , Nuclear sub lease signed

494 T90 MS, VSHORAD, Kamov Helicopter, additional 8-18 Su 30 mki , Su 30 upgrade deal to be signed. .

Declining market ?

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## syed_yusuf

sathya said:


> S400, AK 203, 4 frigate s , Nuclear sub lease signed
> 
> 494 T90 MS, VSHORAD, Kamov Helicopter, additional 8-18 Su 30 mki , Su 30 upgrade deal to be signed. .
> 
> Declining market ?



Good for india - spend, but do it wisely ... T90, su-30mki etc etc are technologies of yesterday it seems they are stuck in this cycle since 70's. always buy behind technology and then struggle to use it in a very meaningful way except that of mirage 2000.


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## khanasifm

Azm design completed ??

Must be high level and not detailed design ?? 2 years seem very quick unless as suggested existing design modified jf or fc-31 etc 

Business community urged to capitalize on investment opportunities in aviation industry https://nation.com.pk/19-Apr-2019/b...investment-opportunities-in-aviation-industry


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## Maxpane

khanasifm said:


> Azm design completed ??
> 
> Must be high level and not detailed design ?? 2 years seem very quick unless as suggested existing design modified jf or fc-31 etc
> 
> Business community urged to capitalize on investment opportunities in aviation industry https://nation.com.pk/19-Apr-2019/b...investment-opportunities-in-aviation-industry


thats interesting news


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## sathya

syed_yusuf said:


> Good for india - spend, but do it wisely ... T90, su-30mki etc etc are technologies of yesterday it seems they are stuck in this cycle since 70's. always buy behind technology and then struggle to use it in a very meaningful way except that of mirage 2000.



Ironically Mirage upgrade going too slow..like 1or 2 per year 
Su 30 mki is for replacement of lost aircraft s.
T90 MS is upgraded ones, with a demand of 80% local components instead of 40 %.
Frigate I agree could be made in starving indian shipyards.

momentum is gained because of Rupee-Ruble trade to counter CAATSA.

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## salman-1

Mig 35 is actually on cards of Paf. Advantages attached are same engine maintenance facilities as of Jf17. It's been marketed aggressively by Russians, one e.g is sale agreement with Egypt. Full testing completed in 2017-18. Now serial production under way. Russians offering Aesa radar, infrared and all its modern fire arms. Russian Air force already ordered around 180 of these birds and upgrading present Mig 29 fleet. Production facility already of Mig 29. So production in numbers not a problem. It's endurance is 2.5 to 3 hrs with internal fuel and Ifr probe retractable. With Air to Air refuelling 6hrs of endurance. Russian offered it to Pakistan instead of Su 35 when Pakistan tested Su 35. It's comparable to blk 70 F16s as sensor suit is said to be better. Pakistan desperately looking for Rafael comparison and could only offered this economical solution. I personally think it's a viable solution.

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## mingle

sathya said:


> Ironically Mirage upgrade going too slow..like 1or 2 per year
> Su 30 mki is for replacement of lost aircraft s.
> T90 MS is upgraded ones, with a demand of 80% local components instead of 40 %.
> Frigate I agree could be made in starving indian shipyards.
> 
> momentum is gained because of Rupee-Ruble trade to counter CAATSA.


India should go for tejas route like PAF went to JF17 to replace legacy jets along 250 MKI with 36to 72 Rafale is more than enough. There is nothing better than having ur own baby cheap reliable can marry with any weapon future upgrades what else u want.



sathya said:


> Ironically Mirage upgrade going too slow..like 1or 2 per year
> Su 30 mki is for replacement of lost aircraft s.
> T90 MS is upgraded ones, with a demand of 80% local components instead of 40 %.
> Frigate I agree could be made in starving indian shipyards.
> 
> momentum is gained because of Rupee-Ruble trade to counter CAATSA.


Trump is in the mood of trade war with India as they did with China, Canada, Mexico, EU they forcing India to buy F16s blk 70 on the name of F21to avoid S400 sactions Beleive me there is no difference between F16V and F21 r almost same best for india is teja nothing more let's see india scummbed to Trump pressure or not?



salman-1 said:


> Mig 35 is actually on cards of Paf. Advantages attached are same engine maintenance facilities as of Jf17. It's been marketed aggressively by Russians, one e.g is sale agreement with Egypt. Full testing completed in 2017-18. Now serial production under way. Russians offering Aesa radar, infrared and all its modern fire arms. Russian Air force already ordered around 180 of these birds and upgrading present Mig 29 fleet. Production facility already of Mig 29. So production in numbers not a problem. It's endurance is 2.5 to 3 hrs with internal fuel and Ifr probe retractable. With Air to Air refuelling 6hrs of endurance. Russian offered it to Pakistan instead of Su 35 when Pakistan tested Su 35. It's comparable to blk 70 F16s as sensor suit is said to be better. Pakistan desperately looking for Rafael comparison and could only offered this economical solution. I personally think it's a viable solution.


Mig 35 Taylored according to PAF needs can carry exocit and chines Anti ship missles and RAAD r good enough to replace mirages.


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## Syed1.

khanasifm said:


> Azm design completed ??
> 
> Must be high level and not detailed design ?? 2 years seem very quick unless as suggested existing design modified jf or fc-31 etc
> 
> Business community urged to capitalize on investment opportunities in aviation industry https://nation.com.pk/19-Apr-2019/b...investment-opportunities-in-aviation-industry



Seems like it took them 2 years to just come up with the 3D CAD model... if that is true then it isn't some extraordinary achievement. Any mechanical engineer kid can spend a month and come up with a SolidWorks/AutoCAD model of a jet, it might be the prettiest jet ever but with zero practicality since none of the parts would have been designed using computational fluid dynamics (CFD) analysis or radar cross section study. 

Maybe they are going old school way, designing on computer and then 3D printing a 1:100 size model then doing wind tunnel testing on it and analyzing the results. These days you don't have to do that you can run far more advanced software analysis.


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## loanranger

Syed1. said:


> Seems like it took them 2 years to just come up with the 3D CAD model... if that is true then it isn't some extraordinary achievement. Any mechanical engineer kid can spend a month and come up with a SolidWorks/AutoCAD model of a jet, it might be the prettiest jet ever but with zero practicality since none of the parts would have been designed using computational fluid dynamics (CFD) analysis or radar cross section study.
> 
> Maybe they are going old school way, designing on computer and then 3D printing a 1:100 size model then doing wind tunnel testing on it and analyzing the results. These days you don't have to do that you can run far more advanced software analysis.


Man you really know how things work


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## Syed1.

loanranger said:


> Man you really know how things work


I sense sarcasm


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## Vortex

Syed1. said:


> Seems like it took them 2 years to just come up with the 3D CAD model... if that is true then it isn't some extraordinary achievement. Any mechanical engineer kid can spend a month and come up with a SolidWorks/AutoCAD model of a jet, it might be the prettiest jet ever but with zero practicality since none of the parts would have been designed using computational fluid dynamics (CFD) analysis or radar cross section study.
> 
> Maybe they are going old school way, designing on computer and then 3D printing a 1:100 size model then doing wind tunnel testing on it and analyzing the results. These days you don't have to do that you can run far more advanced software analysis.



Do we have advanced softwares to run such advances analysis without going to wind tunnels?


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## Syed1.

Vortex said:


> Do we have advanced softwares to run such advances analysis without going to wind tunnels?


T.orrent.s


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## Rafi

Project Azm is the domestic production of the J31 with some added hot source, indigenous and some allied ingredients. 

Project Azm will allow us to build as many as required, which will be substantial.

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## Vortex

Syed1. said:


> T.orrent.s



I would have opted for darknet.

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## AsifIjaz

Only way mig35 will make sense for pakistan is if
.. Russia agrees to a rd93 and probably rd93ma overhaul facility in pakistan
.. Russia agrees to integrate the klj7A or better chinese aesa on it.. Read possible local assembly or manufacture of aesa and mostly same weapons with thunder 
.. Tailor some of the specs as per paf needs e.g. martin baker seats and allowing us to integrate some of the pods or ecms

A russian mig35 is not required but a tailored russian mig35 with local engine overhaul facility can sweetened the deal for 3 to max 4 squadron worth of order. 

In short, if the PAF is opting for a ws13 or ws19 for thunders in the near future then this purchase makes no sense but if we are replacing rd93 with rd93ma which has fadec and/or better mtbo then why not. This way a tailored mig35 can start to replace rose mirages in about 5 years while block 3 thunders can replace non-rose mirages/pgs thus giving us a fleet of thunder, vipers and mig35s.


salman-1 said:


> Mig 35 is actually on cards of Paf. Advantages attached are same engine maintenance facilities as of Jf17. It's been marketed aggressively by Russians, one e.g is sale agreement with Egypt. Full testing completed in 2017-18. Now serial production under way. Russians offering Aesa radar, infrared and all its modern fire arms. Russian Air force already ordered around 180 of these birds and upgrading present Mig 29 fleet. Production facility already of Mig 29. So production in numbers not a problem. It's endurance is 2.5 to 3 hrs with internal fuel and Ifr probe retractable. With Air to Air refuelling 6hrs of endurance. Russian offered it to Pakistan instead of Su 35 when Pakistan tested Su 35. It's comparable to blk 70 F16s as sensor suit is said to be better. Pakistan desperately looking for Rafael comparison and could only offered this economical solution. I personally think it's a viable solution.

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## salman-1

We are already having around 126 Rd93 on jf17s and Rd-93ma on blk 3. So facility of maintenance is there and setting overhaul unit already in pipeline. Mig 35 tailored according to Paf needs will be a potent asset and a good replacement for Mirages. But I don't think Klj7a would be installed on Mig. It has its own Aesa radar

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## CriticalThought

salman-1 said:


> We are already having around 126 Rd93 on jf17s and Rd-93ma on blk 3. So facility of maintenance is there and setting overhaul unit already in pipeline. Mig 35 tailored according to Paf needs will be a potent asset and a good replacement for Mirages. But I don't think Klj7a would be installed on Mig. It has its own Aesa radar



Masha Allah, It's a good decision, Alhamdulillah. PAF has a history of eking out max performance from the junior version, e.g., F-16 instead of F-15. The Flanker's monster engines are also notorious for FOD problems, although Su-35 is supposed to have solved that problem. Nevertheless, extensive familiarity with RD-33 derivative isn't something that can be easily overlooked. As long as the fighter doesn't lack power to fulfill all its duties, it is still a welcome addition. Although, some part of my heart still wistfully yearns for the Flanker... I feel if PAF got its hands on Su-35, it would eventually rid the Flanker of its problems, Insha Allah.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

AsifIjaz said:


> Only way mig35 will make sense for pakistan is if
> .. Russia agrees to a rd93 and probably rd93ma overhaul facility in pakistan
> .. Russia agrees to integrate the klj7A or better chinese aesa on it.. Read possible local assembly or manufacture of aesa and mostly same weapons with thunder
> .. Tailor some of the specs as per paf needs e.g. martin baker seats and allowing us to integrate some of the pods or ecms
> 
> A russian mig35 is not required but a tailored russian mig35 with local engine overhaul facility can sweetened the deal for 3 to max 4 squadron worth of order.
> 
> In short, if the PAF is opting for a ws13 or ws19 for thunders in the near future then this purchase makes no sense but if we are replacing rd93 with rd93ma which has fadec and/or better mtbo then why not. This way a tailored mig35 can start to replace rose mirages in about 5 years while block 3 thunders can replace non-rose mirages/pgs thus giving us a fleet of thunder, vipers and mig35s.


On that chain, it'd also only make sense if it ties directly into Project Azm. Interestingly, UAC was supposed to develop a FGF with UAE based on the MiG-29/35 frame, not sure what came of it...

//Russia defense heavyweight Rostec will partner with the UAE Ministry of Defence to co-develop a fifth-generation light combat fighter, company CEO Sergey Chemezov said at IDEX in Abu Dhabi Monday.

Development, which is based upon its MiG-29 twin-engine fighter aircraft, will kick off in 2018, and will take an estimated seven to eight years, Chemezov said during a media briefing with journalists. He elaborated in an exclusive one-on-one interview with Defense News.//

https://www.defensenews.com/digital...ostec-to-co-develop-5th-gen-fighter-with-uae/

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## ZedZeeshan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> On that chain, it'd also only make sense if it ties directly into Project Azm. Interestingly, UAC was supposed to develop a FGF with UAE based on the MiG-29/35 frame, not sure what came of it...
> 
> //Russia defense heavyweight Rostec will partner with the UAE Ministry of Defence to co-develop a fifth-generation light combat fighter, company CEO Sergey Chemezov said at IDEX in Abu Dhabi Monday.
> 
> Development, which is based upon its MiG-29 twin-engine fighter aircraft, will kick off in 2018, and will take an estimated seven to eight years, Chemezov said during a media briefing with journalists. He elaborated in an exclusive one-on-one interview with Defense News.//
> 
> https://www.defensenews.com/digital...ostec-to-co-develop-5th-gen-fighter-with-uae/


1st prototype is expected in 2025.


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## denel

salman-1 said:


> We are already having around 126 Rd93 on jf17s and Rd-93ma on blk 3. So facility of maintenance is there and setting overhaul unit already in pipeline. Mig 35 tailored according to Paf needs will be a potent asset and a good replacement for Mirages. But I don't think Klj7a would be installed on Mig. It has its own Aesa radar


Yes correct on radar but standardisation brings synergies.


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## Kabotar

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> On that chain, it'd also only make sense if it ties directly into Project Azm. Interestingly, UAC was supposed to develop a FGF with UAE based on the MiG-29/35 frame, not sure what came of it...
> 
> //Russia defense heavyweight Rostec will partner with the UAE Ministry of Defence to co-develop a fifth-generation light combat fighter, company CEO Sergey Chemezov said at IDEX in Abu Dhabi Monday.
> 
> Development, which is based upon its MiG-29 twin-engine fighter aircraft, will kick off in 2018, and will take an estimated seven to eight years, Chemezov said during a media briefing with journalists. He elaborated in an exclusive one-on-one interview with Defense News.//
> 
> https://www.defensenews.com/digital...ostec-to-co-develop-5th-gen-fighter-with-uae/


For AZM Russia's _izdeliye_ 30 might make single engine fighter possible. They have offered this engine to India for AMCA but I doubt they will go for it China is trying to build their own, there aren't many countries who will be offered Su57s so they might be tempted to sell some 400-600 engines to PAF to spread R&D. This engine produces power(107kn/176kn) close to what is produced by F35(125kn/192kn).

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## AsifIjaz

Basically... Rf93ma should be sufficient for a powerful aesa with side trms, irst and any possible internal or external ecms that we may use on thunders in the future. Keeping the size of the thunder in mind there is just enough that can be put on it either internally or externally. 

If azm ends up being a dual engine aircraft (which is highly likely) then 2 x rd93ma shud probably be enough for most if not any design that we may come up with or finalize but its gonna be a long shot for a single engine fgf. A reliable powerplant is gonna be an Achilles heal for either azm and dare i say the way things are looking for tfx as well. Turkey is not going anywhere with TFX without solving this issue. So if we can get an overhaul facility locally then chances of tfx and azm combining as one fgf are pretty high. Moreover if pakistan does decide to go the sino route with a j31 then even rd93ma can become its base power unit. 

To conclude, an overhaul facility for rd93ma wud essentially mean a big relief for depots, increase the reliability or availability of parts for thunders, mig35s and an engine that can possibly be used in azm or azm+TFX/J31. This facility can also be used for possible overhauling engines from friendly countries operating mig29s or mig35 via rd33 or its variants. (malaysia, may be Egypt or probably uae). 
So in essence the possibilities are endless with this move. We kill not 2 but 3 birds by going for a mig35 platform tied with an engine overhaul facility for rd93ma.

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## Behram Khilji

PAF Azm project I think will be a tailored J-31, nothing more nothing less, it will again be produced on Jf-17 production concept of gradually localising the production of parts.

Azm is or Should be a replacement of f-16, if so then 120 odd j-10 can serve us well in to the future edging the mirages out.

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## Dazzler

with WS-13, back in 2014-15. The same aircraft was the first to have the new ECS system for enhanced cooling. LAter, it was fitted and tested with LKF-601E AESA. 








04 with WS-13, right, 06 with 93MA, left. Image from 2013









New engine options have been tested for several years on this aircraft.

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## MIRauf

Only way Mig-35 would be available if India doesn't select Russian Aircraft and goes for JS-39 or a US Variant, then again its highly unlikely as India will buy x$ Billion of something to please the Russians.

Either PAF goes for J-10CE or gets in bed with GCC and have them finance 64 / 32 odd EFTs ( used (64) or new (32) ) like they funded the Egyptian Rafale and other weapons deal. GCC would get better solders from Pak vs almost nothing they got from Egypt and Pak / PAF will get a very good Fighter, a win-win for all.


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## TOPGUN

MIRauf said:


> Only way Mig-35 would be available if India doesn't select Russian Aircraft and goes for JS-39 or a US Variant, then again its highly unlikely as India will buy x$ Billion of something to please the Russians.
> 
> Either PAF goes for J-10CE or gets in bed with GCC and have them finance 64 / 32 odd EFTs ( used (64) or new (32) ) like they funded the Egyptian Rafale and other weapons deal. GCC would get better solders from Pak vs almost nothing they got from Egypt and Pak / PAF will get a very good Fighter, a win-win for all.



India will not go for Mig-35 , now how true is the story of PAF being interested or Russia even willing to sell to PAF is another story.

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## Army research

Mig 35 when the Indians have the s400? Wouldn't the Russians have tweaked the s400 to optimally take on the mig35 ? 
Rather pour funds in kamra or buy much much more safer option of J10C , already have munitions similarity and avionics to a degree ,
Better just buy used f16 etc for now until azm matures

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## StrikeEagle

Assalam u Alaikum guys;

Can someone with reliable information kindly confirm if these news about Pakistan looking for Mig-35's are true?


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## Shabi1

People in Russian Defence ministry were quoting a SU-35 sale to Pakistan not long ago. So will take this with a pinch of salt.

PAF likes to evaluate everything so maybe they did evaluate Mig-35 as well but most likely purchases could be sub systems.

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## loanranger

Shabi1 said:


> People in Russian Defence ministry were quoting a SU-35 sale to Pakistan not long ago. So will take this with a pinch of salt.
> 
> PAF likes to evaluate everything so maybe they did evaluate Mig-35 as well but most likely purchases could be sub systems.


Window Shopping eh

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## The Accountant

StrikeEagle said:


> Assalam u Alaikum guys;
> 
> Can someone with reliable information kindly confirm if these news about Pakistan looking for Mig-35's are true?


No chance ... j10 r much bettee than mig35


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## jupiter2007

TOPGUN said:


> India will not go for Mig-35 , now how true is the story of PAF being interested or Russia even willing to sell to PAF is another story.



1) 9 billon is lots of money that we don’t have unless 90% is a loan.
2) Why would PAF choose MiG-35 instead of SU-35? It doesn’t make any sense...
3) if Russia is willing to make a major deal, we should go for mid and high air defense system and possibly 18 to 24 SU-35 and option to buy 18 more.
4) As far as the news about acquiring 500 T-90 tank, they are 5 million each. I’m not sure how they compare to Chinese tank in terms of capability and price.


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## ghazi52

*The Dragon Fly “Mitty Masud”*

(This historic photo is from the collection of historian Nasim Yousaf. Mr. Yousaf received this photo from a former Air Chief Marshal of the Pakistan Air Force. In this picture, legendary fighter pilot Wing Commander (later Air Commodore) M. Zafar Masud is standing in front of his Sabre jet with helmet (at the bottom of the photo). The pilots shown are lined up on Feb 02, 1958, prior to flying the sixteen Sabres loop formation, which set a world record.)

One of the PAF’s most courageous leaders Air Commodore Mohammad Zafar Masud HJ, SBt,1923 – October 7, 2003; widely knew as Mitty Masud, was a high-ranking air force strategist and air commander of the Eastern Air Command during the East Pakistan war, prior to 1971.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Id keep an eye out more for Russian helo families such as Mi17, 35 very little chances of Mi26. Mi28NE is also an important platform.

I am especially interested in seeing Ka52 in PAA.

And some air defence to top it all off.

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## mingle

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Id keep an eye out more for Russian helo families such as Mi17, 35 very little chances of Mi26. Mi28NE is also an important platform.
> 
> I am especially interested in seeing Ka52 in PAA.
> 
> And some air defence to top it all off.


T129 blk 1 and heavy ATAK along AH1z with Mi35 r enough.

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## Ahmet Pasha

If Mi35 comes with advanced IR/EO systems and a suitable weapons package then that will be enough. Right now Mi35 only SEEMS to be a troop transport that can provide good firepower in CAS role.


mingle said:


> T129 blk 1 and heavy ATAK along AH1z with Mi35 r enough.



AH1z is pretty much dead.
Thats why I said Mi28NE and Ka52
These might become even more relevant if PAA/PAC decides not to go for Atak 2(God forbid).
So they're a good plan B to have as options.

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## mingle

Ahmet Pasha said:


> If Mi35 comes with advanced IR/EO systems and a suitable weapons package then that will be enough. Right now Mi35 only SEEMS to be a troop transport that can provide good firepower in CAS role.
> 
> 
> AH1z is pretty much dead.
> Thats why I said Mi28NE and Ka52
> These might become even more relevant if PAA/PAC decides not to go for Atak 2(God forbid).
> So they're a good plan B to have as options.


No No come to Army Aviation section we talking about it According to @Khafee US Centcom visit offered 12 more AH1z along already 12 in pipeline things r getting good with yanks Thanks to New Govt

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## fatman17

mingle said:


> No No come to Army Aviation section we talking about it According to @Khafee US Centcom visit offered 12 more AH1z along already 12 in pipeline things r getting good with yanks Thanks to New Govt


What US generals offer has to be approved by state dept and congress, that's the roadblocks.

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## mingle

fatman17 said:


> What US generals offer has to be approved by state dept and congress, that's the roadblocks.


@fatman17 I hope Gen knows it too he won't offer just an offer plus current houses r fully in Trump pockets so nothing to be worry about its business after all no law maker at the moment from both parties dare Trump believe or not it will go through yes we need to increase our lobby too for Pak not for persons like in Past it will work.

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## fatman17

mingle said:


> @fatman17 I hope Gen knows it too he won't offer just an offer plus current houses r fully in Trump pockets so nothing to be worry about its business after all no law maker at the moment from both parties dare Trump believe or not it will go through yes we need to increase our lobby too for Pak not for persons like in Past it will work.


Actually congress is in Democrats control

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## mingle

fatman17 said:


> Actually congress is in Democrats control


I know that but I told you the facts Democrats has no balls to dare Trump he is there for next term as well any purchase won't be a problem


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## MIRauf

Dems are in shambles, they are back to how they were during Regan era ( headless chickens. ) It's the Republicans on Indian payroll that have to be countered.

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## mingle

MIRauf said:


> Dems are in shambles, they are back to how they were during Regan era ( headless chickens. ) It's the Republicans on Indian payroll that have to be countered.


Trump can fix any law man they have no value in front of Him just like our MNA now in front of PM or cheifs.


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## mdmm

↑
TOPGUN said
"""India will not go for Mig-35 , now how true is the story of PAF being interested or Russia even willing to sell to PAF is another story."""

"jupiter2007, post: 11395447, member: 2321"]1) 9 billon is lots of money that we don’t have unless 90% is a loan.
2) Why would PAF choose MiG-35 instead of SU-35? It doesn’t make any sense...
3) if Russia is willing to make a major deal, we should go for mid and high air defense system and possibly 18 to 24 SU-35 and option to buy 18 more.
**************************************************** 
I got news from international media that Russia is offering MIG-35 and SU-35 ,to Pakistan on easy terms.
Since "clash of champions (Pakistan-India) month ago, India is not interested in Russian jet hardwares.


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## The Eagle

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1120742658467667969

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## litman

ghazi52 said:


>


amazing pic. around 50 air crafts lined up. i have never seen so many PAF jets together.


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## TAC

The Eagle said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1120742658467667969


Any idea which mag Alan's related articles will appear in?


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## mingle

TAC said:


> Any idea which mag Alan's related articles will appear in?


Airfore monthly I believe

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## Humble Analyst

I believe Russians are enticing Indians and at the same time getting publicity for Mig 35. Plane is good multirole bit is under the shadow of being the derivative of mig 29. Russia needs to sell arms to India however if india does not bite then they may sell to others but to Pakistan maybe....


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## ziaulislam

mingle said:


> No No come to Army Aviation section we talking about it According to @Khafee US Centcom visit offered 12 more AH1z along already 12 in pipeline things r getting good with yanks Thanks to New Govt


sir this is not the 1980s..i doubt US will offer anything..*and i hope i am wrong..congress controls the money and congress is hostile to pakistan due to negligence of last 10 years*

secondly everyone knows that US weapons are very expensive if no FMF is offered, so they do become nonviable even if they are offered and FMF is blocked for sure now

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## mingle

ziaulislam said:


> sir this is not the 1980s..i doubt US will offer anything..*and i hope i am wrong..congress controls the money and congress is hostile to pakistan due to negligence of last 10 years*
> 
> secondly everyone knows that US weapons are very expensive if no FMF is offered, so they do become nonviable even if they are offered and FMF is blocked for sure now


Whos fault is this Zia? Why they against US? why our narrative did not sell to America? there is only and only one reason that last 10 yrs Govt failed to lobby for state of Pak and last 4 yrs we didn't have FM. So far CSF been blked but I am sure they will release soon things r melting between US and Pak plus new Govt US will like to Give a chance to work with new guy in Pak.He is delivering them where they need now so CSF will release we can use that money congress has no say in front of Trump with Pak still Non NATO Allie will get discount over theior products things moving now and wil get pace down the road.khan visit is due at DC things will Change along his visits and before but making congress melow is job of Pak diplomats along pentagon plus LM it will sooth out Keep fingers cross

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## raja786

mingle said:


> Whos fault is this Zia? Why they against US? why our narrative did not sell to America? there is only and only one reason that last 10 yrs Govt failed to lobby for state of Pak and last 4 yrs we didn't have FM. So far CSF been blked but I am sure they will release soon things r melting between US and Pak plus new Govt US will like to Give a chance to work with new guy in Pak.He is delivering them where they need now so CSF will release we can use that money congress has no say in front of Trump with Pak still Non NATO Allie will get discount over theior products things moving now and wil get pace down the road.khan visit is due at DC things will Change along his visits and before but making congress melow is job of Pak diplomats along pentagon plus LM it will sooth out Keep fingers cross


Stop living in fools paradise mate. Yanks will never sell us or arm us with high tech anything. And I think it's blessing in disguise. We will never side yanks in any real world scenario. 
We just need to play our cards right with China and Russia. Make our own stuff. We will get there In Sha Allah. We are on right tracks and top guys know that, well they knew long befor. So keep calm and pay taxes.

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## mingle

raja786 said:


> Stop living in fools paradise mate. Yanks will never sell us or arm us with high tech anything. And I think it's blessing in disguise. We will never side yanks in any real world scenario.
> We just need to play our cards right with China and Russia. Make our own stuff. We will get there In Sha Allah. We are on right tracks and top guys know that, well they knew long befor. So keep calm and pay taxes.


Russia wants hott cash they dont offer loan or line of credit is a problem. China is good but putting whole eggs in chines baskit is not wise either. We have friendship with yanks 70 yrs old should not loose it being emotional. Time to mend what been broken and its not US fault its our fault too a country without FM is rudderless ship plus rulers lobbied for theior projection not for state.Things getting better we need to make it successful.


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## ghazi52

No.9 Squadron pilots and ground crew at Sargodha in 70's.






F - 104

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## fatman17

TAC said:


> Any idea which mag Alan's related articles will appear in?


He's AFM chief coresspondent

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## mdmm

Can you all,please put some light on fate and future of following news.
Source: http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2019-01/24/content_9413144.htm
HINATop Stories
*A sole international market for China's J-10 fighter jets is taking shape*
Source-China Military Online , Editor-Huang Panyue
When it comes to China’s exporting of high-end military equipment, the exporting of J-10 fighter jets to Pakistan is an inevitable topic. Although Pakistan already offered an olive branch to China’s J-10 fighter jets and its Chief of Army Staff Qamar Javed Bajwa even personally mounted on a J-10C during the “Shaheen-VII” China-Pakistan joint air exercise at the end of 2018, it remains hard for the country to make up its mind to sign the official contract to purchase J-10 aircraft.




File Photo: General Qamar Javed Bajwa, Chief of Army Staff of the Pakistan Army,personally conducts a test drive of a Chinese J-10C fighter jet. Even so, it isn’t easy for Pakistan to make up its mind to purchase this type of aircraft.

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## fatman17

mdmm said:


> Can you all,please put some light on fate and future of following news.
> Source: http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2019-01/24/content_9413144.htm
> HINATop Stories
> *A sole international market for China's J-10 fighter jets is taking shape*
> Source-China Military Online , Editor-Huang Panyue
> When it comes to China’s exporting of high-end military equipment, the exporting of J-10 fighter jets to Pakistan is an inevitable topic. Although Pakistan already offered an olive branch to China’s J-10 fighter jets and its Chief of Army Staff Qamar Javed Bajwa even personally mounted on a J-10C during the “Shaheen-VII” China-Pakistan joint air exercise at the end of 2018, it remains hard for the country to make up its mind to sign the official contract to purchase J-10 aircraft.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> File Photo: General Qamar Javed Bajwa, Chief of Army Staff of the Pakistan Army,personally conducts a test drive of a Chinese J-10C fighter jet. Even so, it isn’t easy for Pakistan to make up its mind to purchase this type of aircraft.


The billion $ deal for 36 aircraft was cancelled by mushy. Since then no news as PAF focuses on the JFT program.


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## mdmm

fatman17 said:


> The billion $ deal for 36 aircraft was cancelled by mushy. Since then no news as PAF focuses on the JFT program.


***************
Thank you for reply...
But that was 2008, 11 years ago ?


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## Ali_Baba

mdmm said:


> Can you all,please put some light on fate and future of following news.
> Source: http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2019-01/24/content_9413144.htm
> HINATop Stories
> *A sole international market for China's J-10 fighter jets is taking shape*
> Source-China Military Online , Editor-Huang Panyue
> When it comes to China’s exporting of high-end military equipment, the exporting of J-10 fighter jets to Pakistan is an inevitable topic. Although Pakistan already offered an olive branch to China’s J-10 fighter jets and its Chief of Army Staff Qamar Javed Bajwa even personally mounted on a J-10C during the “Shaheen-VII” China-Pakistan joint air exercise at the end of 2018, it remains hard for the country to make up its mind to sign the official contract to purchase J-10 aircraft.
> A
> File Photo: General Qamar Javed Bajwa, Chief of Army Staff of the Pakistan Army,personally conducts a test drive of a Chinese J-10C fighter jet. Even so, it isn’t easy for Pakistan to make up its mind to purchase this type of aircraft.



PAF has no money!!! it can BARELY afford the JF17 programme. Look at the induction rate. PAF may want J10C but they dont have the money for it. Simples..

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## fatman17

mdmm said:


> ***************
> Thank you for reply...
> But that was 2008, 11 years ago ?


Still no change


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## ziaulislam

mingle said:


> No No come to Army Aviation section we talking about it According to @Khafee US Centcom visit offered 12 more AH1z along already 12 in pipeline things r getting good with yanks Thanks to New Govt


Congress !


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## mingle

ziaulislam said:


> Congress !


Oh Bahi congress needs lobby from Trump administration and IK administration plus LM and pentagon.it will be fine keep if zar and Sher did lobby for Pak not for themselves we won't see bad mood of Congress what u saying today.


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## batmannow

mingle said:


> Oh Bahi congress needs lobby from Trump administration and IK administration plus LM and pentagon.it will be fine keep if zar and Sher did lobby for Pak not for themselves we won't see bad mood of Congress what u saying today.


world has moved from that decades old platforms and there no point , wasting time and energies over lobying , for a few old birds and I gss pak millitary had realised walking with usa on its terms at all subjects isn't posible as far as equipment goes russia had good birds comparing usa


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## mingle

batmannow said:


> world has moved from that decades old platforms and there no point , wasting time and energies over lobying , for a few old birds and I gss pak millitary had realised walking with usa on its terms at all subjects isn't posible as far as equipment goes russia had good birds comparing usa


That's a different debate but I feel and I believe we should replace F16s with American jets. But what @zia is saying mood of Congress is due to last two Govts who lobbied for themselves not state of Pak. US is still global power we have to make a balance between them and China.

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## loanranger

Work towards the future Azm is the future the blackbird is the future. If not getting some glossy birds presently is the price so be it !


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## batmannow

mingle said:


> That's a different debate but I feel and I believe we should replace F16s with American jets. But what @zia is saying mood of Congress is due to last two Govts who lobbied for themselves not state of Pak. US is still global power we have to make a balance between them and China.


we have seen how that so called global power has caught it's pants down in Afghanistan ?
so what next with tht mindset , we should be begging to US congress to defend our aerospace next time our enemy attacks us ?????
come on , it's simple thy give it it's fine thy don't , well Russians are ready to roll a few SU35 or even MIG35 & both in PAFs hands , specially its air attack HELOS wouLD be dam deadly combination then what we been beggin stupidly for ?



loanranger said:


> Work towards the future Azm is the future the blackbird is the future. If not getting some glossy birds presently is the price so be it !


AZM won't be coming soon while u never know , even today IAF comes in and attack some where more important then ballakot ?
Then what we should do , tell enemy to wait let us make AZM frist ?


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## loanranger

batmannow said:


> AZM won't be coming soon while u never know , even today IAF comes in and attack some where more important then ballakot ?
> Then what we should do , tell enemy to wait let us make AZM frist ?


I said work towards not wait for Azm to happen magically....
We should get some aircraft but its not a permanent long term solution(2040onwards).
Azm is not going to be a su35 it will be a evolved jf17 version for that we need to play around with our jf17 more.


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## Trailer23

mingle said:


> ...but I feel and I believe we should replace F16s with American jets.


Ok. Which American jets did you have in mind?

Pickings are slim... What're the options? F-15, F-18 & F-35.


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## mingle

Trailer23 said:


> Ok. Which American jets did you have in mind?
> 
> Pickings are slim... What're the options? F-15, F-18 & F-35.


My fav is new F15X I am big critic of F35 F18 thanks but no thanks


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## Incog_nito

ZedZeeshan said:


> Tech which F7 Miage 3, 5 and F7PG are not offering..!!
> 
> 
> UAE wanted to sell these Planes but deal could nt finalize due to number of reasons..


Pakistan should have sold f7s to current operators


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## GriffinsRule

IM Ozair said:


> Pakistan should have sold f7s to current operators


We are trying to sell those operators JF-17


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## TheTallGuy

I have a gut feeling there are more F-16s (Newly built) will come


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## batmannow

loanranger said:


> I said work towards not wait for Azm to happen magically....
> We should get some aircraft but its not a permanent long term solution(2040onwards).
> Azm is not going to be a su35 it will be a evolved jf17 version for that we need to play around with our jf17 more.


JF 17 succesfully brought us good numbers with battle able tech and yes it will grow up more but it has nothing to do with project AZM 
AZM need a lot of research and a lot more testing to come it won't be a JFT as everyone is gssIng , rather it will be a differnt platform altogether , but right now pakistan air force needs a long range high tech reliable fighter jet which we only can get from China and Russia those times of thinking and wishing that USA will give us it's own high tech specially after watching JFT in skies , we should not evn bother to think about it rathr getting russian top tech available and let it our strike force which can strike deep into enemys lands where thy feel secure cause our inability of long range fighters

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## Army research

batmannow said:


> JF 17 succesfully brought us good numbers with battle able tech and yes it will grow up more but it has nothing to do with project AZM
> AZM need a lot of research and a lot more testing to come it won't be a JFT as everyone is gssIng , rather it will be a differnt platform altogether , but right now pakistan air force needs a long range high tech reliable fighter jet which we only can get from China and Russia those times of thinking and wishing that USA will give us it's own high tech specially after watching JFT in skies , we should not evn bother to think about it rathr getting russian top tech available and let it our strike force which can strike deep into enemys lands where thy feel secure cause our inability of long range fighters


Why can't we do a back deal with Russia , 
We pay them royalty and they allow us to buy the latest variant of AL31 equipped J16's , 
This way Russia won't be subject to political pressure from the gangandus, Pakistan won't face CATSA sanctions, and China will benefit too, 
Besides the J16 would be cheap since China mass produces them and we already have the munitions it uses and our pilots have many times flown and tested J11's and j16's , 
Even if with royalty it's price increases , it will still be a formidable strike fighter, especially for the Arabian sea, 
2-3 squadrons with a 4th one built up over the long term would be a good breathing gap till 2030 onwards when azm arrives , 
I just trying to understand why Russia doesn't let China export if royalties are guaranteed, 
As for J31 , it's just a demonstrstor as of yet ; or who knows the paf might have indepth inforamation about it and might have already signalled willingus to buy 2-3 squadrons 5 years from now when it will be operational should it's development continue


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## jupiter2007

Army research said:


> Why can't we do a back deal with Russia ,
> We pay them royalty and they allow us to buy the latest variant of AL31 equipped J16's ,
> This way Russia won't be subject to political pressure from the gangandus, Pakistan won't face CATSA sanctions, and China will benefit too,
> Besides the J16 would be cheap since China mass produces them and we already have the munitions it uses and our pilots have many times flown and tested J11's and j16's ,
> Even if with royalty it's price increases , it will still be a formidable strike fighter, especially for the Arabian sea,
> 2-3 squadrons with a 4th one built up over the long term would be a good breathing gap till 2030 onwards when azm arrives ,
> I just trying to understand why Russia doesn't let China export if royalties are guaranteed,
> As for J31 , it's just a demonstrstor as of yet ; or who knows the paf might have indepth inforamation about it and might have already signalled willingus to buy 2-3 squadrons 5 years from now when it will be operational should it's development continue



If you had to choose between J-10CE and J-16, which one would you pick and why?

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## Khafee

jupiter2007 said:


> If you had to choose between J-10CE and J-16, which one would you pick and why?


Can I answer this...?

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## jupiter2007

Khafee said:


> Can I answer this...?


Yes

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## Thorough Pro

better empty that gut asap or you'll end up having a long term constipation.
screw american policies and equipment, they have already stopped paying our dues along with deliveries of previously committed equipment. Who wants to deal with a moody bitch like US of A?





TheTallGuy said:


> I have a gut feeling there are more F-16s (Newly built) will come

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## Khafee

jupiter2007 said:


> Yes



The J10C is a medium weight multi role fighter equal to that of the Viper. 
The J16 is a heavy weight, that does come in a dedicated wild weasel / growler type version as well.

Now a single engine a/c is much easier to maintain, and very economical for CAP's, but these capabilities are already being addressed by Viper & JFT. 

If it comes down to which one PAF should buy, the clear choice should be the J16.

Everything that the J10 offers is available in the Blk52+ and is supplemented by JFT. What PAF needs now, is to address gaps / additional areas that need to be addressed, especially for maritime ops.

A dedicated squadron or two for the navy, considering it's long range, would do wonders. 

Secondly, the J16's low flight capability is very close, if not better than that of the mirages. Being twin engine it's payload capacity is also greater. In a Growler like config, it would wreak havoc. 

Just my 2cents
@Signalian & @MastanKhan can expand on this further.

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## mingle

Good logical answer by @Khafee j16 indeed can compliment our maritime requirements if we r looking for a Chinese solution.

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## LKJ86

mingle said:


> Good logical answer by @Khafee j16 indeed can compliment our maritime requirements if we r looking for a Chinese solution.


Just forget J-16. It is impossible.


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## Khafee

LKJ86 said:


> Just forget J-16. It is impossible.


For PAF no Chinese aircraft is impossible. 

Hell even the Taiwanese gave them AMRAAM's (joke)

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## LKJ86

Khafee said:


> For PAF no aircraft is impossible.


Su-30 or Su-35 will be a more realistic choice.


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## MastanKhan

Khafee said:


> The J10C is a medium weight multi role fighter equal to that of the Viper.
> The J16 is a heavy weight, that does come in a dedicated wild weasel / growler type version as well.
> 
> Now a single engine a/c is much easier to maintain, and very economical for CAP's, but these capabilities are already being addressed by Viper & JFT.
> 
> If it comes down to which one PAF should buy, the clear choice should be the J16.
> 
> Everything that the J10 offers is available in the Blk52+ and is supplemented by JFT. What PAF needs now, is to address gaps / additional areas that need to be addressed, especially for maritime ops.
> 
> A dedicated squadron or two for the navy, considering it's long range, would do wonders.
> 
> Secondly, the J16's low flight capability is very close, if not better than that of the mirages. Being twin engine it's payload capacity is also greater. In a Growler like config, it would wreak havoc.
> 
> Just my 2cents
> @Signalian & @MastanKhan can expand on this further.


 
Hi,

Thanks for the tag---. Weapons and war---it is all about the timing---. What do you have---when would you need it---what is the enemy planning right now---.

Based on that---Paf is woefully low on numbers as of now for the frontline aircraft---.

The enemy is not weak---it just made a tactical retreat---. Admitted that it looks terrible in show and on paper the way it was done---.

The attack in kashmir was ill-planned and its execution terrible by the Iaf---. Paf rode the wave of enemy un-certainty and smashed them---.

But they did not run away because they were weak---. That retreat was tactical---. Any further losses in air or on ground would result badly on the elections---so the enemy decided what it did---swallowed its pride and calmed down with its tail between its legs---.

But that does not mean it ended---. The election results will reflect on the future---. If Modi wins---war is imminent---no ifs and buts---.

So---how should pakistan cope now---thios mentality of " brings nothing new to the table " falls in favor of the enemy---.

Napoleone----if he was alive---for sure to this day would have wanted his flank division to have moved 1 minute ahead of time and available to him at the crucial moment---.

An educated pakistani is absolutely illiterate in war planning strategy equipment utility & resource---.

They don't understand what 16-18 fighter aircraft bring to the military---.

16---18 aircraft comprises of a sqdrn of aircraft---a sqdrn of aircraft is like a division of army---a division of Jordanian F16's in pakistani air force lines created havoc in the indian air force plans---.

Because they suddenly showed up one day---just like that---.

So---be it the J10CE or the J16---both are extremely important aircraft for the Paf & Pakistan---.

J10CE is an easier integration than the J16's.

The problem with the Paf's mindset is that it wants to do tomorrow what needed to be done today---.

They should have a plan in place for the 1st enemy incursion---they did not---not ready for today---but ready to make plans for tomorrow---.

Kargil---did not get the chinese F7PG's till they got into combat with the enemy---yet they were available earlier---.

Did not get the M2k's earlier when available---waited too long and lost the deal---.

Did not get the F16's earlier---lost the opportunity to get the F16's later---.

So---the J10---the J16 or the JH7A's---Paf needs to get something now---.

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## Khafee

MastanKhan said:


> The enemy is not weak---it just made a tactical retreat---. Admitted that it looks terrible in show and on paper the way it was done---.
> 
> The attack in kashmir was ill-planned and its execution terrible by the Iaf---. Paf rode the wave of enemy un-certainty and smashed them---.
> 
> But they did not run away because they were weak---. That retreat was tactical---. Any further losses in air or on ground would result badly on the elections---so the enemy decided what it did---swallowed its pride and calmed down with its tail between its legs---.
> 
> But that does not mean it ended---. The election results will reflect on the future---. If Modi wins---war is imminent---no ifs and buts---.
> 
> .



People need to wake up, smell the coffee, and understand this. They are too complacent.

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## Ultima Thule

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thanks for the tag---. Weapons and war---it is all about the timing---. What do you have---when would you need it---what is the enemy planning right now---.
> 
> Based on that---Paf is woefully low on numbers as of now for the frontline aircraft---.
> 
> The enemy is not weak---it just made a tactical retreat---. Admitted that it looks terrible in show and on paper the way it was done---.
> 
> The attack in kashmir was ill-planned and its execution terrible by the Iaf---. Paf rode the wave of enemy un-certainty and smashed them---.
> 
> But they did not run away because they were weak---. That retreat was tactical---. Any further losses in air or on ground would result badly on the elections---so the enemy decided what it did---swallowed its pride and calmed down with its tail between its legs---.
> 
> But that does not mean it ended---. The election results will reflect on the future---. If Modi wins---war is imminent---no ifs and buts---.
> 
> So---how should pakistan cope now---thios mentality of " brings nothing new to the table " falls in favor of the enemy---.
> 
> Napoleone----if he was alive---for sure to this day would have wanted his flank division to have moved 1 minute ahead of time and available to him at the crucial moment---.
> 
> An educated pakistani is absolutely illiterate in war planning strategy equipment utility & resource---.
> 
> They don't understand what 16-18 fighter aircraft bring to the military---.
> 
> 16---18 aircraft comprises of a sqdrn of aircraft---a sqdrn of aircraft is like a division of army---a division of Jordanian F16's in pakistani air force lines created havoc in the indian air force plans---.
> 
> Because they suddenly showed up one day---just like that---.
> 
> So---be it the J10CE or the J16---both are extremely important aircraft for the Paf & Pakistan---.
> 
> J10CE is an easier integration than the J16's.
> 
> The problem with the Paf's mindset is that it wants to do tomorrow what needed to be done today---.
> 
> They should have a plan in place for the 1st enemy incsirursion---they did not---not ready for today---but ready to make plans for tomorrow---.
> 
> Kargil---did not get the chinese F7PG's till they got into combat with the enemy---yet they were available earlier---.
> 
> Did not get the M2k's earlier when available---waited too long and lost the deal---.
> 
> Did not get the F16's earlier---lost the opportunity to get the F16's later---.
> 
> So---the J10---the J16 or the JH7A's---Paf needs to get something now---.


And not to forget sir political influences on PAF purchasing, especially for Mirage-2000 sega @MastanKhan

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## ziaulislam

Trailer23 said:


> Ok. Which American jets did you have in mind?
> 
> Pickings are slim... What're the options? F-15, F-18 & F-35.


Obviously the f35 if that ever becomes available extremely unlikely that such a system will be allowed to india anytime soon let alone Pakistan anytime Ever


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## mingle

ziaulislam said:


> Obviously the f35 if that ever becomes available extremely unlikely that such a system will be allowed to india anytime soon let alone Pakistan anytime Ever


F35 has good sensors but it's not a good dog fighter best is still F15 X can knock anything out there.


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## airomerix

mingle said:


> F35 has good sensors but it's not a good dog fighter best is still F15 X can knock anything out there.



These are mere assumptions that F-35 is not a good dogfighter. These assumptions are brain child of that community who wanted to kill F-35 program in favour of more F-16's and F-15's in the US. Since F-35 without a doubt has sucked alot of money out of US tax payer. 

The idea of F-35 being a less capable dogfighter was born when inexperienced pilots on F-35 went against veteran F-16/F-15 pilots. Obviously F-35 pilots were destined to lose that way. But now if you ask those guys at Luke AFB. F-35s eat everyone alive. F-16's and F-15s cant even see the F-35 until its too late. 

The aircraft is a marvel. Its too good.

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## Ultima Thule

mingle said:


> F35 has good sensors but it's not a good dog fighter best is still F15 X can knock anything out there.


Dog fighting era is almost over that's why all 5th and upcoming 6th gen jets will have more BVR, short ranged air to air missiles are for last resort @mingle

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## mingle

pakistanipower said:


> Dog fighting era is almost over that's why all 5th and upcoming 6th gen jets will have more BVR, short ranged air to air missiles are for last resort @mingle


It will never be that's why we still have guns in planes.

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## Ultima Thule

airomerix said:


> These are mere assumptions that F-35 is not a good dogfighter. These assumptions are brain child of that community who wanted to kill F-35 program in favour of more F-16's and F-15's in the US. Since F-35 without a doubt has sucked alot of money out of US tax payer.
> 
> The idea of F-35 being a less capable dogfighter was born when inexperienced pilots on F-35 went against veteran F-16/F-15 pilots. Obviously F-35 pilots were destined to lose that way. But now if you ask those guys at Luke AFB. F-35s eat everyone alive. F-16's and F-15s cant even see the F-35 until its too late.
> 
> The aircraft is a marvel. Its too good.


 world best electronically advance jet without doubt @airomerix



mingle said:


> It will never be that's why we still have guns in planes.


only in F-35A there is fixed gun but other version of F-35 have optional gun pod and remember sir F-35 is a world best electronically advance jet and its electronic counter measure will jam enemy radars (ground, Air) and weapons ( SAMs,AAM) so i think gun is useless for F-35 @mingle

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## Thorough Pro

I agree and see a big (full blown) war with India coming in next 5 years. we need at least 2/3 full squadrons of J10C or better ASAP. The day India gets their rafael, their itch will suddenly increase significantly and we need a wire brush to satisfy that itch for ever. 








MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thanks for the tag---. Weapons and war---it is all about the timing---. What do you have---when would you need it---what is the enemy planning right now---.
> 
> Based on that---Paf is woefully low on numbers as of now for the frontline aircraft---.
> 
> The enemy is not weak---it just made a tactical retreat---. Admitted that it looks terrible in show and on paper the way it was done---.
> 
> The attack in kashmir was ill-planned and its execution terrible by the Iaf---. Paf rode the wave of enemy un-certainty and smashed them---.
> 
> But they did not run away because they were weak---. That retreat was tactical---. Any further losses in air or on ground would result badly on the elections---so the enemy decided what it did---swallowed its pride and calmed down with its tail between its legs---.
> 
> But that does not mean it ended---. The election results will reflect on the future---. If Modi wins---war is imminent---no ifs and buts---.
> 
> So---how should pakistan cope now---thios mentality of " brings nothing new to the table " falls in favor of the enemy---.
> 
> Napoleone----if he was alive---for sure to this day would have wanted his flank division to have moved 1 minute ahead of time and available to him at the crucial moment---.
> 
> An educated pakistani is absolutely illiterate in war planning strategy equipment utility & resource---.
> 
> They don't understand what 16-18 fighter aircraft bring to the military---.
> 
> 16---18 aircraft comprises of a sqdrn of aircraft---a sqdrn of aircraft is like a division of army---a division of Jordanian F16's in pakistani air force lines created havoc in the indian air force plans---.
> 
> Because they suddenly showed up one day---just like that---.
> 
> So---be it the J10CE or the J16---both are extremely important aircraft for the Paf & Pakistan---.
> 
> J10CE is an easier integration than the J16's.
> 
> The problem with the Paf's mindset is that it wants to do tomorrow what needed to be done today---.
> 
> They should have a plan in place for the 1st enemy incursion---they did not---not ready for today---but ready to make plans for tomorrow---.
> 
> Kargil---did not get the chinese F7PG's till they got into combat with the enemy---yet they were available earlier---.
> 
> Did not get the M2k's earlier when available---waited too long and lost the deal---.
> 
> Did not get the F16's earlier---lost the opportunity to get the F16's later---.
> 
> So---the J10---the J16 or the JH7A's---Paf needs to get something now---.

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## mingle

pakistanipower said:


> world best electronically advance jet without doubt @airomerix
> 
> 
> only in F-35A there is fixed gun but other version of F-35 have optional gun pod and remember sir F-35 is a world best electronically advance jet and its electronic counter measure will jam enemy radars (ground, Air) and weapons ( SAMs,AAM) so i think gun is useless for F-35 @mingle


In Vietnam they removed gun from F4 phantoms due to Aim 7 and sparrows no body can come close but they proved wrong again put the gun back. In war u never know what gonna happen so gun is as important as missiles r

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## PurpleButcher

MastanKhan said:


> The problem with the Paf's mindset is that it wants to do tomorrow what needed to be done today---.



Beautifully said!

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## Ultima Thule

mingle said:


> In Vietnam they removed gun from F4 phantoms due to Aim 7 and sparrows no body can come close but they proved wrong again put the gun back. In war u never know what gonna happen so gun is as important as missiles r


BVR is more advance and reliable than Vietnam era, Vietnam era was early/mid part of development of BVR era @mingle

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## mingle

pakistanipower said:


> BVR is more advance and reliable than Vietnam era, Vietnam era was early/mid part of development of BVR era @mingle


Remember on those days sparrows were like AMRAAM today.


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## TsAr

Khafee said:


> The J10C is a medium weight multi role fighter equal to that of the Viper.
> The J16 is a heavy weight, that does come in a dedicated wild weasel / growler type version as well.
> 
> Now a single engine a/c is much easier to maintain, and very economical for CAP's, but these capabilities are already being addressed by Viper & JFT.
> 
> If it comes down to which one PAF should buy, the clear choice should be the J16.
> 
> Everything that the J10 offers is available in the Blk52+ and is supplemented by JFT. What PAF needs now, is to address gaps / additional areas that need to be addressed, especially for maritime ops.
> 
> A dedicated squadron or two for the navy, considering it's long range, would do wonders.
> 
> Secondly, the J16's low flight capability is very close, if not better than that of the mirages. Being twin engine it's payload capacity is also greater. In a Growler like config, it would wreak havoc.
> 
> Just my 2cents
> @Signalian & @MastanKhan can expand on this further.


Has Russia allowed China to export J-16 (as it's a variant of J11)? Secondly there are doubts that the power unit on J-16 i.e ws-10b still needs give tuning.

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## Humble Analyst

pakistanipower said:


> world best electronically advance jet without doubt @airomerix
> 
> 
> only in F-35A there is fixed gun but other version of F-35 have optional gun pod and remember sir F-35 is a world best electronically advance jet and its electronic counter measure will jam enemy radars (ground, Air) and weapons ( SAMs,AAM) so i think gun is useless for F-35 @mingle


India Pak share borders so the gun will be needed as chances of within visual range cannot be ruled out. The thought that gun will not be needed is not a new idea. It emerged with F 4 phantom and F104 and came back in 70s
While electronic counter measures have come a long way so will the counter counter measures evolve. Someday the Stealth technology will not be as stealthy as it is today. The process will go on swinging from one side to other.
It is good to have faith and set a course but allow for needed course changes and be prepared.


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## Ultima Thule

Humble Analyst said:


> India Pak share borders so the gun will be needed as chances of within visual range cannot be ruled out. The thought that gun will not be needed is not a new idea. It emerged with F 4 phantom and F104 and came back in 70s
> While electronic counter measures have come a long way so will the counter counter measures evolve. Someday the Stealth technology will not be as stealthy as it is today. The process will go on swinging from one side to other.
> It is good to have faith and set a course but allow for needed course changes and be prepared.


yes you're right but remember that in 60s/70s US military (USN/USAF) thinks that dog fight era will be over and future wars will be fought in BVR arena, especially USN had started the project of fleet defense fighter with subsonic jet with heavy load (6-8 BVR) @Humble Analyst 


mingle said:


> Remember on those days sparrows were like AMRAAM today.


yes you're right but remember that in 60s/70s US military (USN/USAF) thinks that dog fight era will be over and future wars will be fought in BVR arena, especially USN had started the project of fleet defense fighter with subsonic jet with heavy load (6-8 BVR) @mingle

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## mingle

pakistanipower said:


> yes you're right but remember that in 60s/70s US military (USN/USAF) thinks that dog fight era will be over and future wars will be fought in BVR arena, especially USN had started the project of fleet defense fighter with subsonic jet with heavy load (6-8 BVR) @Humble Analyst
> 
> yes you're right but remember that in 60s/70s US military (USN/USAF) thinks that dog fight era will be over and future wars will be fought in BVR arena, especially USN had started the project of fleet defense fighter with subsonic jet with heavy load (6-8 BVR) @mingle


Gun will remain as primary weapon for close combat no matter how advance technology is.


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## Ultima Thule

mingle said:


> Gun will remain as primary weapon for close combat no matter how advance technology is.


No only for last resort after all BVR/SRAAM are expired, its true in past and remains in future @mingle

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

Go back to feb 27th---the myht of the gun has been busted---.

No pilots worth his salt & common sense would stay in the dog fight range---. He would rather run away---.

@Khafee --- it would be absolutely stupid of any pilot---even the one who can get into a gun fight to get into a gun fight could also be the target of a BVR missiles---from another enemy aircraft---.

See---gun fight takes 110 % of the pilots attention---he is clueless about anything other than the target---he got target fixation---that is how he will get behind the enemy---he can't hear anything---he can't see anything other than the target and gun lock---which means that he has put the aircraft and his life in jeoardy against a BVR shot from an enemy aircraft 30-40 miles away---.

Even though missile warning launch would be screaming in his ears---he won't hear anything else other than looking for a target lock---.

You kids do not have a broader view of the combat---.

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## Trailer23

airomerix said:


> F-16's and F-15s cant even see the F-35 until its too late.


Coincidently, Pakistan won't see the F-35 until _its_ too late.

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## CriticalThought

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Go back to feb 27th---the myht of the gun has been busted---.
> 
> No pilots worth his salt & common sense would stay in the dog fight range---. He would rather run away---.
> 
> @Khafee --- it would be absolutely stupid of any pilot---even the one who can get into a gun fight to get into a gun fight could also be the target of a BVR missiles---from another enemy aircraft---.
> 
> See---gun fight takes 110 % of the pilots attention---he is clueless about anything other than the target---he got target fixation---that is how he will get behind the enemy---he can't hear anything---he can't see anything other than the target and gun lock---which means that he has put the aircraft and his life in jeoardy against a BVR shot from an enemy aircraft 30-40 miles away---.
> 
> Even though missile warning launch would be screaming in his ears---he won't hear anything else other than looking for a target lock---.
> 
> You kids do not have a broader view of the combat---.



Complete hogwash. If you are caught in a furball with multiple hostiles armed to the teeth, turning tail means assured death from a fifth gen WVR. It is better to stay in the fight and take your chances with the cannon. On the modern battlefield, dumb bullets are still the only thing that cannot be jammed or subverted through spoofing.

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## Humble Analyst

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Go back to feb 27th---the myht of the gun has been busted---.
> 
> No pilots worth his salt & common sense would stay in the dog fight range---. He would rather run away---.
> 
> @Khafee --- it would be absolutely stupid of any pilot---even the one who can get into a gun fight to get into a gun fight could also be the target of a BVR missiles---from another enemy aircraft---.
> 
> See---gun fight takes 110 % of the pilots attention---he is clueless about anything other than the target---he got target fixation---that is how he will get behind the enemy---he can't hear anything---he can't see anything other than the target and gun lock---which means that he has put the aircraft and his life in jeoardy against a BVR shot from an enemy aircraft 30-40 miles away---.
> 
> Even though missile warning launch would be screaming in his ears---he won't hear anything else other than looking for a target lock---.
> 
> You kids do not have a broader view of the combat---.


Kids during 60s did not have the broader view either and Uncles had, also Pak needs multi role planes and gun is useful there too.


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## Khafee

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Go back to feb 27th---the myht of the gun has been busted---.
> 
> No pilots worth his salt & common sense would stay in the dog fight range---. He would rather run away---.
> 
> @Khafee --- it would be absolutely stupid of any pilot---even the one who can get into a gun fight to get into a gun fight could also be the target of a BVR missiles---from another enemy aircraft---.
> 
> See---gun fight takes 110 % of the pilots attention---he is clueless about anything other than the target---he got target fixation---that is how he will get behind the enemy---he can't hear anything---he can't see anything other than the target and gun lock---*which means that he has put the aircraft and his life in jeoardy against a BVR shot from an enemy aircraft 30-40 miles away-*--.
> 
> Even though missile warning launch would be screaming in his ears---he won't hear anything else other than looking for a target lock---.
> 
> You kids do not have a broader view of the combat---.



Very well said!!

With advance IFF in place, even if a target is a few meters apart from a friendly, it will identify correctly, and neutralize the bogey. Thats how advance BVR missiles are today.



Humble Analyst said:


> Kids during 60s did not have the broader view either and Uncles had, also Pak needs multi role planes and *gun is useful there too*.



Guns come with a weight penalty, and are useful against slower moving / less agile. fixed wing / rotary wing aircrafts, and ground targets.

In WVR they could actually prove to be a liability, giving the pilot a false sense of confidence, while another bogey is painting him.

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## MastanKhan

Humble Analyst said:


> Kids during 60s did not have the broader view either and Uncles had, also Pak needs multi role planes and gun is useful there too.



Hi,

This is air combat we are talking about---ala 21st century---create a scenario and explain how a gun would be used in a dog fight---

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## LKJ86

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> This is air combat we are talking about---ala 21st century---create a scenario and explain how a gun would be used in a dog fight---


J-20 has given up the gun.

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## MastanKhan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> This is air combat we are talking about---ala 21st century---create a scenario and explain how a gun would be used in a dog fight---



Hi,

Modern day air combat is totally different than what it was in the 1960's---. At that time it was either one on one or two on two---.

Simply put---

Today---when you are in the hunt guided by your awac---someone else is on the hunt for you guided by their awacs---.

So---you ran out of missiles---and you find an enemy that you want to chase down with your guns---then there is a fair possibility of 90% that that someone is also looking at you thru their electronic eye---possibly guiding an aircraft 40-50 miles away to lock and launch their BVR at you---.

So---under those circumstances---who wants to get into a dog fight and get a bvr up their behind---?

So---anyone who wants to talk about the gun---please create scenario and show how the presence of a gun is a must---.

Don't pull out the examples of the 60's to justify your explanation---.

What that means is that you have no input of your own---you do not have the ability to think and analyze on your own---you don't understand the concept of modern day warfare---you don't understand the lethality of the modern day air to air missiles---.

There is an other guy giving the example of a SPARROW air to air missile and comparing it to the aamram---wasn't that a joke---totally clueless---. @Khafee

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## Ultima Thule

Humble Analyst said:


> Kids during 60s did not have the broader view either and Uncles had, also Pak needs multi role planes and gun is useful there too.


gun is for last resort when all BVR/SRAAM are expired, and also that its a least accurate (unguided) weapons for air superiority jet @Humble Analyst


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## Humble Analyst

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> This is air combat we are talking about---ala 21st century---create a scenario and explain how a gun would be used in a dog fight---


In my first post explained it because of shared border, interdiction of bombers when out of missiles. Use your imagination and do not get too pressured of 21st century and being a conformist.
These schools of thoughts come and go gun will stay for quite some time.

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## denel

we are thinking guns as being on for AA combat; please dont forget there are always times when you need to engage ground level targets especially - it does happen.

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## Humble Analyst

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Modern day air combat is totally different than what it was in the 1960's---. At that time it was either one on one or two on two---.
> 
> Simply put---
> 
> Today---when you are in the hunt guided by your awac---someone else is on the hunt for you guided by their awacs---.
> 
> So---you ran out of missiles---and you find an enemy that you want to chase down with your guns---then there is a fair possibility of 90% that that someone is also looking at you thru their electronic eye---possibly guiding an aircraft 40-50 miles away to lock and launch their BVR at you---.
> 
> So---under those circumstances---who wants to get into a dog fight and get a bvr up their behind---?
> 
> So---anyone who wants to talk about the gun---please create scenario and show how the presence of a gun is a must---.
> 
> Don't pull out the examples of the 60's to justify your explanation---.
> 
> What that means is that you have no input of your own---you do not have the ability to think and analyze on your own---you don't understand the concept of modern day warfare---you don't understand the lethality of the modern day air to air missiles---.
> 
> There is an other guy giving the example of a SPARROW air to air missile and comparing it to the aamram---wasn't that a joke---totally clueless---. @Khafee


You are just one track minded and do not understand that all air forces cannot have all aircraft as mission specific. Reading some material about BVR does not give a right to be arrogant, I have read those scenarios of BVR engagements, mostly in fiction books. If you cannot use your imagination then I am not going to bother any further.
I can and have given a few scenarios but you won’t get off your high horses because somehow the idea made it there and cannot get unstuck and blocking your imagination. Therefore you are resorting to negative tactics.
Next you will say short range missiles are use less all combat will be bvr.


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

You are getting behind another aircraft---you need to get around 500---700 yards behind the enemy aircraft to use your guns to make the best use of the opportunity---.

To get that close to the target---you are using all your energy---your concentration---your resource---your focus to line up your aircraft to make the shot---.

So---basically---you are in your zone---you have tunnel vision---you can see nothing but the enemy in the pips of your gun sight---you are oblivious to what is happening around


Humble Analyst said:


> You are just one track minded and do not understand that all air forces cannot have all aircraft as mission specific. Reading some material about BVR does not give a right to be arrogant, I have read those scenarios of BVR engagements, mostly in fiction books. If you cannot use your imagination then I am not going to bother any further.
> I can and have given a few scenarios but you won’t get off your high horses because somehow the idea made it there and cannot get unstuck and blocking your imagination. Therefore you are resorting to negative tactics.
> Next you will say short range missiles are use less all combat will be bvr.



Hi,

Create scenarios---.

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## ziaulislam

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> This is air combat we are talking about---ala 21st century---create a scenario and explain how a gun would be used in a dog fight---


You can watch the sherdil movie


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## Khafee

ziaulislam said:


> You can watch the sherdil movie


He is trying to explain something to a member, and you jump in with this.......

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## Army research

denel said:


> we are thinking guns as being on for AA combat; please dont forget there are always times when you need to engage ground level targets especially - it does happen.


Yup exactly what I thought when I saw people debating it , they tend to forget we have no dedicated strike craft so in war if desperate CAS is needed any aircraft doing CAP would be routed to provide cannon fire ,

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## denel

Army research said:


> Yup exactly what I thought when I saw people debating it , they tend to forget we have no dedicated strike craft so in war if desperate CAS is needed any aircraft doing CAP would be routed to provide cannon fire ,


trust me. i have seen crazy things happen. - two incidents; when daks returning from low level drop offs; one had an RPG-7 go right thru the fuselage - just 2 holes; plane flew back all ok - the other - rpg lodged in the tail.

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## MastanKhan

Army research said:


> Yup exactly what I thought when I saw people debating it , they tend to forget we have no dedicated strike craft so in war if desperate CAS is needed any aircraft doing CAP would be routed to provide cannon fire  ,



Hi,

But this scenario is different that what other posters are saying---they are giving the examples of the 60's---and using the gun for dog fights---and dog fights---they are not against slow moving air crafts---but against air crafts with similar capabilities---.

And what I am saying is---dog fights against similar aircraft era is gone---you may dog fight with a WVR missile---but using guns---next to impossible---.

That slow moving target that posters are talking about---it is the " death trap " laid by the enemy against your aircraft---.

LR sams---BVR missiles---high high accuracy of both systems---it is not the 60's gun battle any more---.



Khafee said:


> He is trying to explain something to a member, and you jump in with this.......



Hi,

When educated pakistanis talk like that---what to say of the discussion---.

I don't watch any pakistani or indian movies---it has been decades a minimum of 3 1/2 at that---.

So---what it comes to is---what you see in the movies is "truth"---.

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## ziaulislam

Khafee said:


> He is trying to explain something to a member, and you jump in with this.......


To lighten the mood lol..


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## MIRauf

Guns will come back in near future, just in a different format ( Energy weapons. ) Today they are liability in A2A as MK has stated.

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## denel

MIRauf said:


> Guns will come back in near future, just in a different format ( Energy weapons. ) Today they are liability in A2A as MK has stated.


One analogy i can suggest to level set the discussion; i still have my bayonet that goes on R4/R5; we still have a knife issued as an additional side weapon. Same would be asked why have a knife when we have a rifle plus a sidearm.

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## SQ8

MIRauf said:


> Guns will come back in near future, just in a different format ( Energy weapons. ) Today they are liability in A2A as MK has stated.


Yet most US fighters have them, practice with them in A2A and even employ them in complex A2A and A2G scenarios such as red flag. Ill trust the premier airforces of the world and not random internet babas.

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## Humble Analyst

Khafee said:


> He is trying to explain something to a member, and you jump in with this.......[/QUOT
> Appreciate you looking out for us all

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## Keysersoze

denel said:


> One analogy i can suggest to level set the discussion; i still have my bayonet that goes on R4/R5; we still have a knife issued as an additional side weapon. Same would be asked why have a knife when we have a rifle plus a sidearm.


I think a better analogy would be a pistol. When my rifle jams I go to my pistol. Bayonets are for clearing positions lol

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## Humble Analyst

Oscar said:


> Yet most US fighters have them, practice with them in A2A and even employ them in complex A2A and A2G scenarios such as red flag. Ill trust the premier airforces of the world and not random internet babas.


Exactly in different form maybe not necessarily the rockets or bullets of today but they will stay.



Keysersoze said:


> I think a better analogy would be a pistol. When my rifle jams I go to my pistol. Bayonets are for clearing positions lol


You will throw away the pistol because you have a long range rifle?


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## SQ8

Humble Analyst said:


> Exactly in different form maybe not necessarily the rockets or bullets of today but they will stay.


Projectile weapons can’t be equated with energy weapons. The behavior and usage will change. 

The common aspect will be usage as a close in weapons system.

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## Army research

denel said:


> trust me. i have seen crazy things happen. - two incidents; when daks returning from low level drop offs; one had an RPG-7 go right thru the fuselage - just 2 holes; plane flew back all ok - the other - rpg lodged in the tail.


That must be a cheaply made rpg, 
Also albeit being inexperienced my self, i have learend from the memoirs of my late uncle who fought as a major in 1971 , South Kashmir, 
A single cannon fire run on advancing or withdrawing enemy troops , especially if they are ill disciplined Indians, has enough physch potential to route them, let alone the fact that it is futile to use expensive Air to ground missile in supply convoy hit missions were cannons are enough to shread trucks,



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> But this scenario is different that what other posters are saying---they are giving the examples of the 60's---and using the gun for dog fights---and dog fights---they are not against slow moving air crafts---but against air crafts with similar capabilities---.
> 
> And what I am saying is---dog fights against similar aircraft era is gone---you may dog fight with a WVR missile---but using guns---next to impossible---.
> 
> That slow moving target that posters are talking about---it is the " death trap " laid by the enemy against your aircraft---.
> 
> LR sams---BVR missiles---high high accuracy of both systems---it is not the 60's gun battle any more---.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> When educated pakistanis talk like that---what to say of the discussion---.
> 
> I don't watch any pakistani or indian movies---it has been decades a minimum of 3 1/2 at that---.
> 
> So---what it comes to is---what you see in the movies is "truth"---.


I agree sir , but a multi role aircraft must have a cannon , for cas, if we are rich to have separate strike craft, as of now USA and China only , then the cannon would be a glad omission, as for your point of posters citing the ineffectiveness of 60's and Vietnam BVR , I agree , one look at the technical specifications of the meteor is enough

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## Khafee

Humble Analyst said:


> Appreciate you looking out for us all



Thank You Bro!

Some people on this forum are plain idiots. They don't want t learn, they are happy with their preconceived notions.

To learn, you need an open mind, and carefully read what is written, and ignore by whom. Then analyze it your self.

I'm not a pilot, but flying is my passion, and I have been studying it from the first gulf war. Aircrafts, tactics, and I still consider myself a novice.

This was one book, that opened up my mind, and ultimately made me a nightmare for my opponents.
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/the-un-intended-eye-opener-of-27th-feb.609124/page-14#post-11299427

I have learnt a lot on this forum, and from people I can't stand, and I would suggest to anyone who wants to "learn" to put his ego aside, and not let it become a detrimental factor in learning. Ultimately you benefit from that knowledge, and the more you share it, the more you benefit. Just like money, sitting in a bank it's just paper, spending in the right cause, enriching someone else's life, brings YOU happiness.

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## denel

Army research said:


> That must be a cheaply made rpg,
> Also albeit being inexperienced my self, i have learend from the memoirs of my late uncle who fought as a major in 1971 , South Kashmir,
> A single cannon fire run on advancing or withdrawing enemy troops , especially if they are ill disciplined Indians, has enough physch potential to route them, let alone the fact that it is futile to use expensive Air to ground missile in supply convoy hit missions were cannons are enough to shread trucks,


Nope. It was a good old made in Soviet Union - it was sheer luck; it was stuck in the tail. because daks' skin is light aluminium; just went thru.


Keysersoze said:


> I think a better analogy would be a pistol. When my rifle jams I go to my pistol. Bayonets are for clearing positions lol


 - bayonets have multiple uses in our cases - it comes with a tin opener - that is what we used it for most.

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## Army research

denel said:


> Nope. It was a good old made in Soviet Union - it was sheer luck; it was stuck in the tail. because daks' skin is light aluminium; just went thru.
> 
> - bayonets have multiple uses in our cases - it comes with a tin opener - that is what we used it for most.


I thought of that , it may have had a hard impact fuze , lucky pilot

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## MastanKhan

Keysersoze said:


> I think a better analogy would be a pistol. When my rifle jams I go to my pistol. Bayonets are for clearing positions lol



Hi,

And you are correct---you are in close combat---you can use your pistol---as your rifle has jammed.

The long range enemy shooter cannot target you YET---because smart bullet technology that will target just you and not the other guy has not been invented yet---.

But for aircraft---that technology has been invented---. You fell into the trap of a 'dogfight'---the enemy awacs has you targetted---orders the fighter aircraft 40 miles away to launch its missile at you---the missile is smart---it knows the difference between you and your opponent---you are busy lining up your aircraft behind your enemy and KABOOM---

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## Humble Analyst

Khafee said:


> Thank You Bro!
> 
> Some people on this forum are plain idiots. They don't want t learn, they are happy with their preconceived notions.
> 
> To learn, you need an open mind, and carefully read what is written, and ignore by whom. Then analyze it your self.
> 
> I'm not a pilot, but flying is my passion, and I have been studying it from the first gulf war. Aircrafts, tactics, and I still consider myself a novice.
> 
> This was one book, that opened up my mind, and ultimately made me a nightmare
> 
> Some people on this forum are plain idiots. They don't want t learn, they are happy with their preconceived notions.
> 
> To learn, you need an open mind, and carefully read what is written, and ignore by whom. Then analyze it your self.
> 
> I'm not a pilot, but flying is my passion, and I have been studying it from the first gulf war. Aircrafts, tactics, and I still consider myself a novice.
> 
> This was one book, that opened up my mind, and ultimately made me a nightmare for my opponents.
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/the-un-intended-eye-opener-of-27th-feb.609124/page-14#post-11299427
> 
> I have learnt a lot on this forum, and from people I can't stand, and I would suggest to anyone who wants to "learn" to put his ego aside, and not let it become a detrimental factor in learning. Ultimately you benefit from that knowledge, and the more you share it, the more you benefit. Just like money, sitting in a bank it's just paper, spending in the right cause, enriching someone else's life, brings YOU happiness.


 Thanks for sharing I have that book and last weekend I took it out to restart reading this Tom Clancy book.
I read Dale Brown as well, however I am not rigid in my thoughts and maybe those who say gun is useless in dog fight have rigid attitude.
Drones are the future and a lot of other changes in air warfare but this will take time.

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## Khafee

Oscar said:


> Yet most US fighters have them, practice with them in A2A and even employ them in complex A2A and A2G scenarios such as red flag. Ill trust the premier airforces of the world and not random internet babas.



Sir Red Flag is a an exercise. No matter what people say, IT is not a "tactics development exercise". There literally all capabilities of an aircraft are used, just the same way, a soldier is taught to assemble his weapon eyes closed. The real "tactics and sop's" are developed "after" the exercise.

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## CriticalThought

Khafee said:


> Sir Red Flag is a an exercise. No matter what people say, IT is not a "tactics development exercise". There literally all capabilities of an aircraft are used, just the same way, a soldier is taught to assemble his weapon eyes closed. The real "tactics and sop's" are developed "after" the exercise.



Based on the data gathered in the exercise. Which necessarily includes the use of cannons.

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## MastanKhan

Humble Analyst said:


> Thanks for sharing I have that book and last weekend I took it out to restart reading this Tom Clancy book.
> I read Dale Brown as well, however I am not rigid in my thoughts and maybe those who say gun is useless in dog fight have rigid attitude.
> Drones are the future and a lot of other changes in air warfare but this will take time.



Hi,

Have you read his earlier books---?

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## Khafee

CriticalThought said:


> Based on the data gathered in the exercise. Which necessarily includes the use of cannons.


Thank You Captain Obvious!

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## Humble Analyst

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Have you read his earlier books---?


Yes some of them
I remember the Flight of you he old Dog and


MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Have you read his earlier books---?


yes flight of the old dog, night of the hawk and later now strike force and probably started but not yet finished.


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## CriticalThought

Khafee said:


> Thank You Captain Obvious!



Let's make something very clear. We are not friends. We don't know each other, and we share no bonds of familiarity. Stay within the norms of decency and formality.


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## Khafee

CriticalThought said:


> Let's make something very clear. We are not friends. We don't know each other, and we share no bonds of familiarity. Stay within the norms of decency and formality.


I have a very strong distaste for clueless and arrogant idiots, hence my earlier sarcastic comment.

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## Thorough Pro

Not so quick sunshine, what if both radars as well as comm equipment is jammed for both and you end up in close proximity to an enemy? Gun is the only non-jammable weapon on a fighter and it can be used in sow-moving drones as well as ground targets. why lose such a versatile weapon? and what advantage you get by losing it?



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Go back to feb 27th---the myht of the gun has been busted---.
> 
> No pilots worth his salt & common sense would stay in the dog fight range---. He would rather run away---.
> 
> @Khafee --- it would be absolutely stupid of any pilot---even the one who can get into a gun fight to get into a gun fight could also be the target of a BVR missiles---from another enemy aircraft---.
> 
> See---gun fight takes 110 % of the pilots attention---he is clueless about anything other than the target---he got target fixation---that is how he will get behind the enemy---he can't hear anything---he can't see anything other than the target and gun lock---which means that he has put the aircraft and his life in jeoardy against a BVR shot from an enemy aircraft 30-40 miles away---.
> 
> Even though missile warning launch would be screaming in his ears---he won't hear anything else other than looking for a target lock---.
> 
> You kids do not have a broader view of the combat---.

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## SQ8

Khafee said:


> Sir Red Flag is a an exercise. No matter what people say, IT is not a "tactics development exercise". There literally all capabilities of an aircraft are used, just the same way, a soldier is taught to assemble his weapon eyes closed. The real "tactics and sop's" are developed "after" the exercise.


Lessons from red flag are employed in real life; which includes the usage of the gun in A2A combat.

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## fatman17

https://www.rt.com/news/457701-iaf-report-admits-failures-pakistan/

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## Signalian

Khafee said:


> The J10C is a medium weight multi role fighter equal to that of the Viper.
> The J16 is a heavy weight, that does come in a dedicated wild weasel / growler type version as well.
> 
> Now a single engine a/c is much easier to maintain, and very economical for CAP's, but these capabilities are already being addressed by Viper & JFT.
> 
> If it comes down to which one PAF should buy, the clear choice should be the J16.
> 
> Everything that the J10 offers is available in the Blk52+ and is supplemented by JFT. What PAF needs now, is to address gaps / additional areas that need to be addressed, especially for maritime ops.
> 
> A dedicated squadron or two for the navy, considering it's long range, would do wonders.
> 
> Secondly, the J16's low flight capability is very close, if not better than that of the mirages. Being twin engine it's payload capacity is also greater. In a Growler like config, it would wreak havoc.
> 
> Just my 2cents
> @Signalian & @MastanKhan can expand on this further.


Varying views.

I wouldn't undermine Chinese electronics since JF-17 is based on Chinese systems, but i have a few things in mind before i conclude. JF-17 is an investment which has been already made, there is no turning back from it, the only way is forward. J-10 is an option, and not the only option. Yes credit wise (money), its a cheaper option, but isn't JF-17 a cheaper option already present.

J-10 would have been a good option in the absence of F-16. You know the price tag of modern western aircraft. PAF wants funding enabled from CSF. Uncle Sam is drifting away from spoken words. PAF wants available technology, best or effective, but both come with a price tag. Its more like J-10 vs F-16 now. what offers more? The mood on PDF has deviated towards USA putting sanctions on Pakistan in case of F-16, so F-16 is not a good option in future for further induction. PAF sees it differently. Western electronic systems have their own place in the market and are proven systems. It will be interesting so know if DA-20 EW aircraft are equipped with western (french ?) or chinese systems, or a mix of both. PAF's love for F-16 has proved itself on 27th feb, just like it did back in 1980's against Soviet/Afghan jets.

so for the next jet,will it be only Azm project or any other, will be it western or chinese electronics ? Can PAF get a chinese aircraft and integrate with western tech like before? or will it be turkish tech this time ? this reminds me ,why is Russian electronic tech so under rated by PAF ? indians somehow also chose israeli tech on russian aircrafts.

If you look at the Kuwaiti AF acquisition of 40 F-18 E/F's, its a 10 billion USD deal, check the amount of accessories which come with these aircrafts, sky rocketing the cost. So then again, PAF has say 3 Billion USD, what will PAF do, cant get multiple platforms, cant get all all required accessories maybe. F-16 also has many accessories, pay the price and get those pods, radars, EW systems. is J-10 also flexible enough ? you know the issues of licensing with J-11 series, will Russians allow, can't say for sure since Russians have pitched SU35 already.

You know "weapon politics" better than me.

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## Globalwarrior

How did F 16 prove itself when ISPR says no f16s were used ?

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## CriticalThought

Signalian said:


> Varying views.
> 
> I wouldn't undermine Chinese electronics since JF-17 is based on Chinese systems, but i have a few things in mind before i conclude. JF-17 is an investment which has been already made, there is no turning back from it, the only way is forward. J-10 is an option, and not the only option. Yes credit wise (money), its a cheaper option, but isn't JF-17 a cheaper option already present.
> 
> J-10 would have been a good option in the absence of F-16. You know the price tag of modern western aircraft. PAF wants funding enabled from CSF. Uncle Sam is drifting away from spoken words. PAF wants available technology, best or effective, but both come with a price tag. Its more like J-10 vs F-16 now. what offers more? The mood on PDF has deviated towards USA putting sanctions on Pakistan in case of F-16, so F-16 is not a good option in future for further induction. PAF sees it differently. Western electronic systems have their own place in the market and are proven systems. It will be interesting so know if DA-20 EW aircraft are equipped with western (french ?) or chinese systems, or a mix of both. PAF's love for F-16 has proved itself on 27th feb, just like it did back in 1980's against Soviet/Afghan jets.
> 
> so for the next jet,will it be only Azm project or any other, will be it western or chinese electronics ? Can PAF get a chinese aircraft and integrate with western tech like before? or will it be turkish tech this time ? this reminds me ,why is Russian electronic tech so under rated by PAF ? indians somehow also chose israeli tech on russian aircrafts.
> 
> If you look at the Kuwaiti AF acquisition of 40 F-18 E/F's, its a 10 billion USD deal, check the amount of accessories which come with these aircrafts, sky rocketing the cost. So then again, PAF has say 3 Billion USD, what will PAF do, cant get multiple platforms, cant get all all required accessories maybe. F-16 also has many accessories, pay the price and get those pods, radars, EW systems. is J-10 also flexible enough ? you know the issues of licensing with J-11 series, will Russians allow, can't say for sure since Russians have pitched SU35 already.
> 
> You know "weapon politics" better than me.



I criticize the slave mentality behind PAF's Viper love affair. Instead of trying to produce better, they remain a net importer. Thunder is mainly Chinese engineering. AEWACS are all Chinese/Western engineering. In 70 years, they didn't have the vision and foresight to setup a decent semiconductor fabrication and materials industry. And even with Azm, the plan seems to be 'Program Management' with key components outsourced. A success based on imported war fighting philosophy and technology is temporary. As soon as India decides to listen to USAF, forget about PAF's supposed man behind the machine. If America arns your enemy with better tools AND skills, you are nothing. 27th Feb is America's lesson to India to listen like a good student. If Indians are wise enough to listen, good bye PAF.

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## Bossman

Globalwarrior said:


> How did F 16 prove itself when ISPR says no f16s were used ?


ISPR never said that F16 were not used. They never crossed the LOC but were definitely used.

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## Aryeih Leib

??


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## araz

CriticalThought said:


> I criticize the slave mentality behind PAF's Viper love affair. Instead of trying to produce better, they remain a net importer. Thunder is mainly Chinese engineering. AEWACS are all Chinese/Western engineering. In 70 years, they didn't have the vision and foresight to setup a decent semiconductor fabrication and materials industry. And even with Azm, the plan seems to be 'Program Management' with key components outsourced. A success based on imported war fighting philosophy and technology is temporary. As soon as India decides to listen to USAF, forget about PAF's supposed man behind the machine. If America arns your enemy with better tools AND skills, you are nothing. 27th Feb is America's lesson to India to listen like a good student. If Indians are wise enough to listen, good bye PAF.


I get the objections raised against further acquisitionof 16s. We can go round and round this to vs fro debate. The problem may well be commission and houses in the West for seniorofficers but do you think the Chinese do not offer the same? I remember an account related to me by someone of Our SHEEDA Teli roaming around with 6 Chinese girls provided to him courtesy of some pweapons dealer. My cousin who goes world over to evaluare arms for PA also relates similar approach.
You talk of comparable tech but do tell me of where this is going to come from? If we go to EU we will pay through the nose for at par tech. 
There are a few other things which cannot be related on the open forum. However please rest assured PAF knows the twists and turns of theUS arms market and changing strategies. If the Chinese do provide these then PAF will not look westwards butcurrently they dont which is where the problem lies. Our meagre pockets and perhaps some hungry mouths do not help either but if one enters into Pig swill your boots will get dirty and this is what the arms acquisition is about.
A

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## CriticalThought

araz said:


> I get the objections raised against further acquisitionof 16s. We can go round and round this to vs fro debate. The problem may well be commission and houses in the West for seniorofficers but do you think the Chinese do not offer the same? I remember an account related to me by someone of Our SHEEDA Teli roaming around with 6 Chinese girls provided to him courtesy of some pweapons dealer. My cousin who goes world over to evaluare arms for PA also relates similar approach.
> You talk of comparable tech but do tell me of where this is going to come from? If we go to EU we will pay through the nose for at par tech.
> There are a few other things which cannot be related on the open forum. However please rest assured PAF knows the twists and turns of theUS arms market and changing strategies. If the Chinese do provide these then PAF will not look westwards butcurrently they dont which is where the problem lies. Our meagre pockets and perhaps some hungry mouths do not help either but if one enters into Pig swill your boots will get dirty and this is what the arms acquisition is about.
> A



Let me explain my concerns. I am not simply concerned about acquisitions and their sources. I am saying that true air power lies in total indigenous understanding of the underlying science, and local design and manufacturing. Without understanding the underlying science, you cannot devise effect strategies and counter-strategies. Without indigenous design, there is always the chance of malicious backdoors or kill switches being placed in your electronics. Similarly for local manufacture, along with the reduction in import bill.

Today, our pilots have onboarded the American way of thinking, planning, and conducting aerial warfare. Guess what? The Americans are in our head. They know how we think, they know what we are truly capable of. And they are best friends with our arch enemy. They have a vested interest in selling to our rival, and their regional plans see us being subservient to Indian hegemony. Which is why, you cannot say that we are truly powerful. In order to gain true air power, our air chiefs need to have a deep insight into the science such that they are able to push the limits of technology and demand performance from an indigenous base of researchers, scientists, and engineers. Through experimentation, they need to have local reproduction of results to truly understand the capabilities of not just India, but America, France, Russia etc. Based on this understanding, they need to devise their strategies and start projects for indigenous weapons. That is how you truly achieve ANY power, whether land, aerial, or naval. We are lacking this approach completely, and this is my concern.

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## araz

CriticalThought said:


> Complete hogwash. If you are caught in a furball with multiple hostiles armed to the teeth, turning tail means assured death from a fifth gen WVR. It is better to stay in the fight and take your chances with the cannon. On the modern battlefield, dumb bullets are still the only thing that cannot be jammed or subverted through spoofing.


That maybe the case for current aircrafts but the whole play book of the 5th generation might be totally different. The whole concept of the 5th generation is to fight from a distance and deliver your missiles from a range from where you are not detectable and get away. I dont see much of getting into the mellee with a 5th generation plane. We must remember that the 5th generation platform looses its utility once it is withing visual range. That maybe the reason for 22s not having a cannon. My thoughts so feel free to disagree.
A

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## CriticalThought

araz said:


> That maybe the case for current aircrafts but the whole play book of the 5th generation might be totally different. The whole concept of the 5th generation is to fight from a distance and deliver your missiles from a range from where you are not detectable and get away. I dont see much of getting into the mellee with a 5th generation plane. We must remember that the 5th generation platform looses its utility once it is withing visual range. That maybe the reason for 22s not having a cannon. My thoughts so feel free to disagree.
> A



Both F-22 and F-35 have internal cannons.

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## TsAr

araz said:


> That maybe the case for current aircrafts but the whole play book of the 5th generation might be totally different. The whole concept of the 5th generation is to fight from a distance and deliver your missiles from a range from where you are not detectable and get away. I dont see much of getting into the mellee with a 5th generation plane. We must remember that the 5th generation platform looses its utility once it is withing visual range. That maybe the reason for 22s not having a cannon. My thoughts so feel free to disagree.
> A


F-22 has a M61A2 Vulcan 20 mm rotary cannon.

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## Thorough Pro

PAF is a defence arm of the government with the primary aim to defend the country not to manufacture arms and ammunition. They will acquire whatever they think is necessary, its the job of the civilian government to ensure that the required stuff is made available either through import or local manufacture. 

Since the civilian governments failed in either establishing a viable local defense industry or maintaining reliable relationships with foreign suppliers, they (PAF) had to jump in the manufacturing to produce its own jet. They are doing it, but still this is not their primary responsibility.




CriticalThought said:


> I criticize the slave mentality behind PAF's Viper love affair. Instead of trying to produce better, they remain a net importer. Thunder is mainly Chinese engineering. AEWACS are all Chinese/Western engineering. In 70 years, they didn't have the vision and foresight to setup a decent semiconductor fabrication and materials industry. And even with Azm, the plan seems to be 'Program Management' with key components outsourced. A success based on imported war fighting philosophy and technology is temporary. As soon as India decides to listen to USAF, forget about PAF's supposed man behind the machine. If America arns your enemy with better tools AND skills, you are nothing. 27th Feb is America's lesson to India to listen like a good student. If Indians are wise enough to listen, good bye PAF.



May be true, but the missile fragments may not be that smart to only target the enemy plane and avoid the friendly in close proximity. 




Khafee said:


> Very well said!!
> 
> *With advance IFF in place, even if a target is a few meters apart from a friendly, it will identify correctly, and neutralize the bogey. Thats how advance BVR missiles are today.*
> 
> 
> 
> Guns come with a weight penalty, and are useful against slower moving / less agile. fixed wing / rotary wing aircrafts, and ground targets.
> 
> In WVR they could actually prove to be a liability, giving the pilot a false sense of confidence, while another bogey is painting him.


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## Humble Analyst

araz said:


> That maybe the case for current aircrafts but the whole play book of the 5th generation might be totally different. The whole concept of the 5th generation is to fight from a distance and deliver your missiles from a range from where you are not detectable and get away. I dont see much of getting into the mellee with a 5th generation plane. We must remember that the 5th generation platform looses its utility once it is withing visual range. That maybe the reason for 22s not having a cannon. My thoughts so feel free to disagree.
> A


By 22 if you mean F22 Raptor then it has a cannon

What I see is an awe of 5th generation planes and thinking by a lot of smart people that BVR will be the only way of air battles of the future.
Let us take another look at it to see if it is true.
I think that the sensors and jamming will improve and eventually the planes will sometimes or little more than sometimes end up within visual range. It is not yet defined what will be 6th generation planes type? Will they be drones or they will operate nearer to stratosphere.
The countries with resources will beat the third World through economy and technology.

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## CriticalThought

Thorough Pro said:


> PAF is a defence arm of the government with the primary aim to defend the country not to manufacture arms and ammunition. They will acquire whatever they think is necessary, its the job of the civilian government to ensure that the required stuff is made available either through import or local manufacture.
> 
> Since the civilian governments failed in either establishing a viable local defense industry or maintaining reliable relationships with foreign suppliers, they (PAF) had to jump in the manufacturing to produce its own jet. They are doing it, but still this is not their primary responsibility.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> May be true, but the missile fragments may not be that smart to only target the enemy plane and avoid the friendly in close proximity.



For much of our history military has been in power. The blame must be evenly divided.

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## ghazi52

May 1, 2019

*PAF’s response against India’s aggression to be remembered as ‘Operation Swift Retort’: Air Chief*


ISLAMABAD: “PAF response on 27 February 2019 against the enemy aggression will be remembered in history as “Operation Swift Retort”, said Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan on Wednesday.

He was addressing the 264th Air Staff Presentation meeting held at Air Headquarters in Islamabad.

Addressing the principal staff officers, field commanders, air officers and airmen of PAF, the Air Chief further said, “ We bow our heads in complete humility and thank Almighty Allah for providing us an opportunity to come up to the expectations of our nation in giving a befitting reply to the enemy’s misadventure during the recent Indo-Pak conflict.”

He said: “PAF’s swift response was the demonstration of our firm resolve, capacity and capability in thwarting the nefarious designs of the adversary”.

Lauding the selfless commitment of PAF personnel, the Air Chief said that every rank and file of PAF deserves special appreciation for proving equal to the task and I salute each one of you for showing strong commitment, perseverance and motivation being deployed at forward operating bases during these testing times.

In the end the Air Chief reiterated his resolve that in case of any misadventure by the adversary, PAF response would be even stronger than before.

At the conclusion of the event, the Air Chief awarded trophies to the bases excelling in various domains. 

Trophies for best performance in Training and Flight Safety were awarded to PAF Base Shahbaz, while the Strongman Trophy was won by PAF Base Mushaf. 

The Ground Safety trophy was awarded to PAF Base Peshawar. Air Staff Presentation is held quarterly in Pakistan Air Force in order to take stock of the operational preparedness of PAF.

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## Zarvan

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1123579832288387077


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## Maxpane

Zarvan said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1123579832288387077


tweet isnt showing sir


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## Trailer23

Thought some of you may have missed out on this Tweet in the JF-17 (Sub-Forum).


Tempest II said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1123629098180517888
> View attachment 557575

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## The Eagle

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1123967134902706176

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## R Wing

CriticalThought said:


> Let me explain my concerns. I am not simply concerned about acquisitions and their sources. I am saying that true air power lies in total indigenous understanding of the underlying science, and local design and manufacturing. Without understanding the underlying science, you cannot devise effect strategies and counter-strategies. Without indigenous design, there is always the chance of malicious backdoors or kill switches being placed in your electronics. Similarly for local manufacture, along with the reduction in import bill.
> 
> Today, our pilots have onboarded the American way of thinking, planning, and conducting aerial warfare. Guess what? The Americans are in our head. They know how we think, they know what we are truly capable of. And they are best friends with our arch enemy. They have a vested interest in selling to our rival, and their regional plans see us being subservient to Indian hegemony. Which is why, you cannot say that we are truly powerful. In order to gain true air power, our air chiefs need to have a deep insight into the science such that they are able to push the limits of technology and demand performance from an indigenous base of researchers, scientists, and engineers. Through experimentation, they need to have local reproduction of results to truly understand the capabilities of not just India, but America, France, Russia etc. Based on this understanding, they need to devise their strategies and start projects for indigenous weapons. That is how you truly achieve ANY power, whether land, aerial, or naval. We are lacking this approach completely, and this is my concern.



Yes, and unicorns should roam the Deosai. I'm not disagreeing with your points, BTW --- but we know what the PAF is and isn't capable of, so we should keep our diagnosis, prognosis and expectations in line. 

You're talking about chip manufacturing, material science, advanced testing and, most of all, vision. The vision most people have is about what job they'll be securing post-retirement and what land they can buy now that will be worth 10x by the time they're out of service. 

They go to the States. Most of their kids go to the States to study. This is all a pipe dream. 

The best a mid-tier country like us can hope for is a mix of tools so no one nation can totally dominate us (though a superpower obviously will, regardless.)


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## MystryMan

Trailer23 said:


> Thought some of you may have missed out on this Tweet in the JF-17 (Sub-Forum).


block-2 or 3?


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## Incog_nito

Is paf getting JH-7B from China as gift? If yes then how many and will it be for PN?

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## CriticalThought

R Wing said:


> Yes, and unicorns should roam the Deosai. I'm not disagreeing with your points, BTW --- but we know what the PAF is and isn't capable of, so we should keep our diagnosis, prognosis and expectations in line.
> 
> You're talking about chip manufacturing, material science, advanced testing and, most of all, vision. The vision most people have is about what job they'll be securing post-retirement and what land they can buy now that will be worth 10x by the time they're out of service.
> 
> They go to the States. Most of their kids go to the States to study. This is all a pipe dream.
> 
> The best a mid-tier country like us can hope for is a mix of tools so no one nation can totally dominate us (though a superpower obviously will, regardless.)



Step 1: ordinary citizens start holding our leaders to a higher level of expectation. Let them know in clear terms what standards of excellence you want. Initially there may be just one person with those expectations. But Insha Allah with the Help and Mercy of Allah the Almighty, eventually there will be 200 million with those expectations. Insha Allah, the Goodness will only multiply. Aameen.

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## TsAr

IM Ozair said:


> Is paf getting JH-7B from China as gift? If yes then how many and will it be for PN?


Where did you get this news from?


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## BHarwana



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## khanasifm

Pac might be getting some offset work related to t-129 acquisition beside Mashaq ?

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## R Wing

CriticalThought said:


> Step 1: ordinary citizens start holding our leaders to a higher level of expectation. Let them know in clear terms what standards of excellence you want. Initially there may be just one person with those expectations. But Insha Allah with the Help and Mercy of Allah the Almighty, eventually there will be 200 million with those expectations. Insha Allah, the Goodness will only multiply. Aameen.



InshaAllah!

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## Maxpane

BHarwana said:


> View attachment 558017


whats this?


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## fatman17

Globalwarrior said:


> How did F 16 prove itself when ISPR says no f16s were used ?


That's for you to find out. We are in the know.

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## Incog_nito

TsAr said:


> Where did you get this news from?


From A video ....


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## fatman17

Aselsan introduced another new technology at the IDEF 19 in Istanbul, which started on April 30. The Turkish company showcased an active electronically scanned array (AESA) design that is being pitched for integration on the Turkish Air Force’s F-16 fleet. According to the company, the radar will be able to perform non-co-operative and automatic target recognition, while also featuring protection against radar frequency jamming, and has electronic support and electronic attack functions. Aselsan sees the radar competing with systems such as Northrop Grumman’s APG-83 Scalable Agile Beam Radar on the domestic and export market.

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## mingle

IM Ozair said:


> Is paf getting JH-7B from China as gift? If yes then how many and will it be for PN?


If it's true it will be a party from @MastanKhan


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## Maxpane

IM Ozair said:


> From A video ....


rubbish

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## fatman17

The Pak Air Force is hoping to send three JF-17 Thunders to Paris Show next month, barring any operational commitments.
Source : Alan Warnes.

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## Maxpane

fatman17 said:


> The Pak Air Force is hoping to send three JF-17 Thunders to Paris Show next month, barring any operational commitments.
> Source : Alan Warnes.


very good news


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## fatman17

“Turkey’s T-FX is in line with what the PAF want.” PAC Kamra Chairman Air Marshal Ahmer Shahzad told me today. Pak Air Force studies into a next generation fighter aircraft have been ongoing for over two years now. #IDEF2019
Source : Alan Warnes

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## Ahmet Pasha

Very significant coming from PAC Chairman. But the British engine scares me a bit. Hopefully Turks and Pakistan can work around that.


fatman17 said:


> “Turkey’s T-FX is in line with what the PAF want.” PAC Kamra Chairman Air Marshal Ahmer Shahzad told me today. Pak Air Force studies into a next generation fighter aircraft have been ongoing for over two years now. #IDEF2019
> Source : Alan Warnes

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## BHarwana

fatman17 said:


> “Turkey’s T-FX is in line with what the PAF want.” PAC Kamra Chairman Air Marshal Ahmer Shahzad told me today. Pak Air Force studies into a next generation fighter aircraft have been ongoing for over two years now. #IDEF2019
> Source : Alan Warnes


I disagree with what Warned said here. How can PAF eye TFX because at this stage TFX is just a concept which is under research. There is nothing concrete for PAF to look at regarding TFX. TFX needs more time for PAF to consider. May be this could happen on later stages of TFX development but not now. What are your thoughts?

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## Chak Bamu

BHarwana said:


> I disagree with what Warned said here. How can PAF eye TFX because at this stage TFX is just a concept which is under research. There is nothing concrete for PAF to look at regarding TFX. TFX needs more time for PAF to consider. May be this could happen on later stages of TFX development but not now. What are your thoughts?


This is probably to dissuade India from buying Rafale aircrafts. It seems that the logic is that Pakistan is looking for 5th gen stealthy war-birds and for this reason, India's best bet is to buy 5th generation aircraft instead of Rafale. Having Rafale may provide a window of few short years in which IAF would feel less vulnerable, but in the longer run Pakistan would do better.

Problem is that India could opt for F-35. They probably have the finances to handle it.

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## BHarwana

Chak Bamu said:


> This is probably to dissuade India from buying Rafale aircrafts. It seems that the logic is that Pakistan is looking for 5th gen stealthy war-birds and for this reason, India's best bet is to buy 5th generation aircraft instead of Rafale. Having Rafale may provide a window of few short years in which IAF would feel less vulnerable, but in the longer run Pakistan would do better.
> 
> Problem is that India could opt for F-35. They probably have the finances to handle it.


India has already bought 36 Rafale and the extended order will follow be it Rafale or F-18 but it will because India needs too many jets and building entire fleet of 5th gen is not possible for them. Although I some what agree with your reason but yet we cannot deter them. Rafale will go through and yes F-35 will be flown by IAF that is where you are 100% correct.

Just an opinion. I think pakistan will divide it's 5th gen procurement.

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## TsAr

Eventually India will buy more Rafale, as it makes sense since there ground crew would be trained on them and logistics would also be sorted out. Adding a new aircraft would be a nightmare for them.

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## Amigator




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## Ali_Baba

BHarwana said:


> India has already bought 36 Rafale and the extended order will follow be it Rafale or F-18 but it will because India needs too many jets and building entire fleet of 5th gen is not possible for them. Although I some what agree with your reason but yet we cannot deter them. Rafale will go through and yes F-35 will be flown by IAF that is where you are 100% correct.
> 
> Just an opinion. I think pakistan will divide it's 5th gen procurement.



India cannot buy the F35 since she will also operate the S400.....


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## Silicon0000

If F-16/F21 comes to India then F35 will also come otherwise not or maybe after so many years that it won't remain a significant threat.


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## fatman17

TsAr said:


> Eventually India will buy more Rafale, as it makes sense since there ground crew would be trained on them and logistics would also be sorted out. Adding a new aircraft would be a nightmare for them.


Rafale has the inside track to win the 114 aircraft tender, only hitch will be the price and the French tradition of bribery to win the order.


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## fatman17

Our Polish Patriot

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## TsAr

fatman17 said:


> Rafale has the inside track to win the 114 aircraft tender, only hitch will be the price and the French tradition of bribery to win the order.


French have a tendency in bribing, and I am sure they even did it for the 36 planes. The only thing that could stop them is a major financial scandal

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## denel

TsAr said:


> French have a tendency in bribing, and I am sure they even did it for the 36 planes. The only thing that could stop them is a major financial scandal


Amen, they do big time.

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## Pakistani Fighter

BHarwana said:


> India has already bought 36 Rafale and the extended order will follow be it Rafale or F-18 but it will because India needs too many jets and building entire fleet of 5th gen is not possible for them. Although I some what agree with your reason but yet we cannot deter them. Rafale will go through and yes F-35 will be flown by IAF that is where you are 100% correct.
> 
> Just an opinion. I think pakistan will divide it's 5th gen procurement.


How can PAF counter F 35s??


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## BHarwana

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> How can PAF counter F 35s??


The same way every one else is going to do it. F-35 is a bigger problem for Russia and China and they will find a solution all we have to do is watch them and adapt.


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## Trailer23

I never knew that we take in cadet pilots from The Islamic Republic of Iran Air Force and train 'em on the K-8...


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## GriffinsRule

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> How can PAF counter F 35s??


By not going up against it

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## SQ8

GriffinsRule said:


> By not going up against it


Staying far from it and the F-22.
In the words of a PAF officer who has seen the F-35..”Its a hundred years ahead(in concepts)”

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## syed_yusuf

Oscar said:


> Staying far from it and the F-22.
> In the words of a PAF officer who has seen the F-35..”Its a hundred years ahead(in concepts)”


What do u mean ?


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## Pakistani Fighter

Oscar said:


> Staying far from it and the F-22.
> In the words of a PAF officer who has seen the F-35..”Its a hundred years ahead(in concepts)”


So what would PAF do when IAF F 35 enters Pakistan's Air space?


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## fatman17

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> So what would PAF do when IAF F 35 enters Pakistan's Air space?


Bugger it


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## Ultima Thule

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> So what would PAF do when IAF F 35 enters Pakistan's Air space?


IAF F-35 @Syed Hammad Ahmed ??? currently IAF has no F-35 in their arsenal @Syed Hammad Ahmed


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## SQ8

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> So what would PAF do when IAF F 35 enters Pakistan's Air space?


Hopefully we have a better LO asset available to find it.. or better detection methods available.

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## Avicenna

pakistanipower said:


> IAF F-35 @Syed Hammad Ahmed ??? currently IAF has no F-35 in their arsenal @Syed Hammad Ahmed



It's a matter of time.


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## fatman17

Viper Driver Flying Hours 

Sqn.Ldr. Waqas "Fury-1" Javed

Viper Driver

Name
Sqn.Ldr.Waqas "Fury-1" Javed
Country Pakistan 
Unit 11th squadron "Arrows"Flying F-16s
Viper Hours1100
F-16 Flying Hours1,000 Hours
#2460 on the 1K list
Unit 19th squadron "Warhawks/Sherdills"


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## Ultima Thule

Avicenna said:


> It's a matter of time.


Not before that 2025 or later if the deal will finalized in a year or two @Avicenna


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## Avicenna

pakistanipower said:


> Not before that 2025 or later if the deal will finalized in a year or two @Avicenna



I have no idea about the timing.

Only that PAF has to be ready to face technologically superior US sourced arms in service with the IAF going forward.

Hopefully, China will have caught up even more by then.

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## Ultima Thule

Avicenna said:


> I have no idea about the timing.
> 
> Only that PAF has to be ready to face technologically superior US sourced arms in service with the IAF going forward.
> 
> Hopefully, China will have caught up even more by then.


J-31 will be ready then @Avicenna


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## Avicenna

pakistanipower said:


> J-31 will be ready then @Avicenna



Time will tell.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Should've written Turkey instead of China. They're going to stab us in back and try to re educate us one day. Mark my words.


Avicenna said:


> Hopefully, China will have caught up even more by then.

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## Ultima Thule

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Should've written Turkey instead of China. They're going to stab us in back and try to re educate us one day. Mark my words.


And TFX will operational after 2030 but if we trying to improve our know that how to design/R&D/develop 5th gen jets (project AZM) turkey is beneficial country @Ahmet Pasha


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## LKJ86

pakistanipower said:


> And TFX will operational after 2030 but if we trying to improve our know that how to design/R&D/develop 5th gen jets (project AZM) turkey is beneficial country @Ahmet Pasha


If there are a teacher and a student, which one should you choose to learn from?

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## Ultima Thule

LKJ86 said:


> If there are a teacher and a student, which one should you choose to learn from?


From both @LKJ86

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## Pakistani Fighter

Oscar said:


> Staying far from it and the F-22.
> In the words of a PAF officer who has seen the F-35..”Its a hundred years ahead(in concepts)”


Hope Pakistan Gets F 35s


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## Ultima Thule

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Hope Pakistan Gets F 35s


No Chance @Syed Hammad Ahmed

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## loanranger

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Hope Pakistan Gets F 35s


Never happening ever but donot be dissappointed the good guys never have the nice shiny weapons.They always have to make do with what they have. Abhi Jf 17 humara itna chikna lagta hai tou kuch salon main j10 ya koi aur homegrown 5 gen a gaya tou f35 ko sab bhol jayen gai. It will be the end of the Gora F16 complex.


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## araz

pakistanipower said:


> From both @LKJ86


Great response my friend. It is indeed right. Sometimes a student has a way of teaching which the teacher does not.
A

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## Ultima Thule

araz said:


> Great response my friend. It is indeed right. Sometimes a student has a way of teaching which the teacher does not.
> A


Thanks sir


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## Evora

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Hope Pakistan Gets F 35s


Thanks God ke khwab dekhna free hai warna hamare pass to is kaam ke bhi paise nhi hai, waise agar paise hote bhi to ap ko F35 nhi milne. lets live in reality rather in fantasies. We should focus on Chinese and indigenous stuff.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Evora said:


> Thanks God ke khwab dekhna free hai warna hamare pass to is kaam ke bhi paise nhi hai, waise agar paise hote bhi to ap ko F35 nhi milne. lets live in reality rather in fantasies. We should focus on Chinese and indigenous stuff.


Bhai phr India ke F 35s se kaise muqabla karoge?


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## Trailer23

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Bhai phr India ke F 35s se kaise muqabla karoge?


@Syed Hammad Ahmed , where exactly are you getting the idea that India is getting the F-35 (JSF)?

It is not even a story worthy of conversation.

There are no rumors or speculation that India has any interest in them (currently).

Furthermore, perhaps you're not aware - but if you have placed an order for the *Russian S-400*, you can't get the F-35. Just look at _Turkey_ for example. Even _Egypt_ is now be pressured about their order for the Su-35 or MiG-35 (not sure which).

India has bigger problems right now. They _have_ sanctions to deal with for procuring Oil from Iran. The US might give 'em leverage if they were to say, place an order for the _F-21_ (which they are not interested in).

The US has a strict policy when it comes to Russia: You're either with us, or against us.

So, lets not worry about an F-35 in the IAF inventory for a decade or two.

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## batmannow

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Bhai phr India ke F 35s se kaise muqabla karoge?






There u go kid, stop worrying the day india would be flyin F35s, we ill be watching them in that jet???



Trailer23 said:


> @Syed Hammad Ahmed , where exactly are you getting the idea that India is getting the F-35 (JSF)?
> 
> It is not even a story worthy of conversation.
> 
> There are no rumors or speculation that India has any interest in them (currently).
> 
> Furthermore, perhaps you're not aware - but if you have placed an order for the *Russian S-400*, you can't get the F-35. Just look at _Turkey_ for example. Even _Egypt_ is now be pressured about their order for the Su-35 or MiG-35 (not sure which).
> 
> India has bigger problems right now. They _have_ sanctions to deal with for procuring Oil from Iran. The US might give 'em leverage if they were to say, place an order for the _F-21_ (which they are not interested in).
> 
> The US has a strict policy when it comes to Russia: You're either with us, or against us.
> 
> So, lets not worry about an F-35 in the IAF inventory for a decade or two.


Pls stop speardin bias that USA has imposed any restrictions on india, all it wants is to bully India to order some big, shyt so called modified F16S versions which been renamed to F21s and that's all once india place order you will see every permission ill be granted to india America is for war economy and Thts all

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## Trailer23

batmannow said:


> Pls stop speardin bias that USA has imposed any restrictions on india, all it wants is to bully India to order some big, shyt so called modified F16S versions which been renamed to F21s and that's all once india place order you will see every permission ill be granted to india America is for war economy and Thts all


I believe I just replied to one of your posts (in regard to me). And since I don't want to go down the road of calling another member a liar, I will ask you directly...do you even watch the news or do you just read the headlines on your cellphone & make assumptions - trying to impress everyone that you're a major think tank with all the juice.

First off, I never stated that India has sanctions. Try to read the sentence again...slowly. Its says, "_They have sanctions to deal with for procuring Oil from Iran._" That would be if they placed an order in the present time.

Tell you what..., here's a lil' read for you:
https://oilprice.com/Energy/Crude-Oil/China-Set-To-Defy-US-Sanctions-On-Iran.html

Go ahead, take the time & read it. It'll give you a clearer picture of what 'SANCTIONS' there will be for any country that attempts to buy Oil from Iran as of a week ago (*02nd May*).

The US can't ensure cheaper Oil supplies, which means a number of countries will defy the Sanctions. China for one will. Question is, will India...? No one here cares about the others _Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Italy_ and _Greece_.

And i'll hold you on that IAF order for the F-21's, since you're all to sure its coming (as stated by you).

Finally, I know you like to talk trash with other Members and have gone a few rounds with others & myself. But bear in mind, you - are - not - the - only - one.

You got something to say, make your point & move on.

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## batmannow

Trailer23 said:


> I believe I just replied to one of your posts (in regard to me). And since I don't want to go down the road of calling another member a liar, I will ask you directly...do you even watch the news or do you just read the headlines on your cellphone & make assumptions - trying to impress everyone that you're a major think tank with all the juice.
> 
> First off, I never stated that India has sanctions. Try to read the sentence again...slowly. Its says, "_They have sanctions to deal with for procuring Oil from Iran._" That would be if they placed an order in the present time.
> 
> Tell you what..., here's a lil' read for you:
> https://oilprice.com/Energy/Crude-Oil/China-Set-To-Defy-US-Sanctions-On-Iran.html
> 
> Go ahead, take the time & read it. It'll give you a clearer picture of what 'SANCTIONS' there will be for any country that attempts to buy Oil from Iran as of a week ago (*02nd May*).
> 
> The US can't ensure cheaper Oil supplies, which means a number of countries will defy the Sanctions. China for one will. Question is, will India...? No one here cares about the others _Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Italy_ and _Greece_.
> 
> And i'll hold you on that IAF order for the F-21's, since you're all to sure its coming (as stated by you).
> 
> Finally, I know you like to talk trash with other Members and have gone a few rounds with others & myself. But bear in mind, you - are - not - the - only - one.
> 
> You got something to say, make your point & move on.


Let's get a restart from the point of you veiw then , Chinese, Russian has crap areo tech and all the goodies Jst get birth in the west?

Thts ur bottom line was?

I came to counter ur so called final verdict hence you felt been trashed out instead of bringing credible sources, u r still just druming the same shyt?, sorry for the language but then its Jst normal, Lingo on every major American news channel these days?
I'm not think tank here nor I hve claimed ever but I work behind many real bussines deals, some for my own country and some for others and Thts from where I get my info, I gss u won't hve any chance to sit in ur life with any of those so called pentagon contractors which I hve done deals with???
Now come and prove that Russian areo tech is crap Thts the equation where u should be concentrating more???
So whts the F21 ?
How far it is from RAFEAL and can France take care of indian interests in the world?
Let's talk from tht angle?


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## Trailer23

batmannow said:


> Let's get a restart from the point of you veiw then , Chinese, Russian has crap areo tech and all the goodies Jst get birth in the west?
> 
> Thts ur bottom line was?
> 
> I came to counter ur so called final verdict hence you felt been trashed out instead of bringing credible sources, u r still just druming the same shyt, sorry its Jst normal to hve a open discussion u can find same words on every major American news channel these days?
> I'm not think tank here nor I hve claimed ever but I work behind many real bussines deals, some for my own country and some for others and Thts from where I get my info, I gss u won't hve any chance to sit in ur life with any of those so called pentagon contractors which I hve done deals with???
> Now come and prove that Russian areo tech is crap Thts the equation where u should be concentrating more???


I haven't the slightest clue what the hell you're rambling about. Especially the fisrt 02 questions about China & Russian Aerotech...stuff. It has nothing to do with any of my earlier posts. Yeesh.

Tell you what, lets just forget we even crossed paths - I know i'd like nothing more.


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## Irfan Baloch

batmannow said:


> Let's get a restart from the point of you veiw then , Chinese, Russian has crap areo tech and all the goodies Jst get birth in the west?
> 
> Thts ur bottom line was?
> 
> I came to counter ur so called final verdict hence you felt been trashed out instead of bringing credible sources, u r still just druming the same shyt?, sorry for the language but then its Jst normal, Lingo on every major American news channel these days?
> I'm not think tank here nor I hve claimed ever but I work behind many real bussines deals, some for my own country and some for others and Thts from where I get my info, I gss u won't hve any chance to sit in ur life with any of those so called pentagon contractors which I hve done deals with???
> Now come and prove that Russian areo tech is crap Thts the equation where u should be concentrating more???
> So whts the F21 ?
> How far it is from RAFEAL and can France take care of indian interests in the world?
> Let's talk from tht angle?


I hope your grammar and spelling is better in all written correspondence with your business partners.

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## batmannow

Irfan Baloch said:


> I hope your grammar and spelling is better in all written correspondence with your business partners.


Actully it's not but I can gurntee you it's far more better then the guys I'm dealin with?
Thts just south eastern Asian syndrome And its perception, Tht for having a bussines u must hve English grammarical back ground, most of the time u hve experienced secretaries for those kinda jobs but when there is a personal discussion it's free way?
U can't be expecting, a Chinese or Russian, or even some Africans having or using the west minster kinda English language skills???
Bussines means to get money, doing some services or selling or buyin some thing to convert into profiting money.

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## mshan44



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## Raider 21

mshan44 said:


> View attachment 559134


602.....the air conditioning that finally got fixed after MLU....


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## Irfan Baloch

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Hope Pakistan Gets F 35s


Not going to happen
From now on only inhouse production with chinese support

Getting any western platform os now impossible due to end user ban by american equipment in European jets and their own anti Pakistan stance

Tue awacs from sweden maube the last western item

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## ghazi52

Skardu Airport





__ https://www.facebook.com/

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## SABRE

Irfan Baloch said:


> Not going to happen
> From now on only inhouse production with chinese support
> 
> Getting any western platform os now impossible due to end user ban by american equipment in European jets and their own anti Pakistan stance
> 
> Tue awacs from sweden maube the last western item



You are more than welcome to correct me but because of the significantly restrictive nature of the American export controls laws, end-user agreement, & third party transfer agreement most advance European states tend not to incorporate American technologies on their weapons platforms. The only exception perhaps is SAAB Gripen. Americans were fairly dismayed when CERN did not even buy a screw from them for their collider let alone seek any advance equipment or scientific assistance for these reasons. I think the Europeans are fairly independent when it comes to jets like Eurofighter and Rafale. Britains Tempest fighter jet programme will probably have no American technology and engineering assistance either.

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## Ultima Thule

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Bhai phr India ke F 35s se kaise muqabla karoge?


*J-31



*​@Syed Hammad Ahmed

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## Pakistani Fighter

pakistanipower said:


> *J-31
> View attachment 559435
> *​@Syed Hammad Ahmed


Is it that good enough considering Americans have the best technology


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## Ultima Thule

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Is it that good enough considering Americans have the best technology


Its not about how its good against projected Indian F-35 purchase but we only have that option that can counter Indian F-35 @Syed Hammad Ahmed

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## Irfan Baloch

SABRE said:


> You are more than welcome to correct me but because of the significantly restrictive nature of the American export controls laws, end-user agreement, & third party transfer agreement most advance European states tend not to incorporate American technologies on their weapons platforms. The only exception perhaps is SAAB Gripen. Americans were fairly dismayed when CERN did not even buy a screw from them for their collider let alone seek any advance equipment or scientific assistance for these reasons. I think the Europeans are fairly independent when it comes to jets like Eurofighter and Rafale. Britains Tempest fighter jet programme will probably have no American technology and engineering assistance either.


thanks my dear you understood and for benefit of all readers gave a detail about American restrictions when it comes to military or duel use technology.

I think the Western European preference for non American components is more of a business decision rather than accommodating the potential buyer. these Europeans are part of NATO & are very scarce examples where they would have taken a decision against American wishes (I already mentioned Swedish AWACS sale to Pakistan).

like SAAB Gripen, I think the Europfighter also uses AMRAAMs as well but maybe its an optional integration.

French are definitely independent but given their business commitments with India you can see how they were jumping for India more than BJP blowhards after Pulwama attack.

the British, we must rule out. even their own defence minister is more loyal to Americans than his own country and leaks details. British wont dare to do anything out of line to even cause a frown on the Americans. they so even if any of their system has no American component , they will still follow the American embargo to the letter take example of American restrictions on Iran, After threats by Americans, independent European and Asian banks stopped their business with Iran.

to get access to Western European weapons technology, we must keep our interests and negotiations very secret so that they dont get sabotaged, the OEM is all within the country without American parts and the size of the contract should be sufficient that Indian blackmailing to the supplier doesnt work. I have always wished Grippen as replacement for our Mirages role but its a wishful thinking and J-10 maybe a more plausible option.

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## Trailer23

@Syed Hammad Ahmed - Hypothetically speaking, the Pakistan Air Force has a better chance of acquiring the Su-57 than India getting the F-35.

I said: hypothetically

Though, historically speaking...Pakistan had almost no connection with the former Soviet Union (currently Russia), but it appears that India has left them out in the dark as of late. First they ditched them with the Su-57 and now not looking to buy any jets other than a few (stored) MiG-29's from the late 80's.

So, I won't be too worried about something that doesn't exist in their inventory.



LKJ86 said:


> Why not choose to upgrade JF-17 instead?


How about you guys give us a good deal on the J-10c's...(for now) .

And we'll continue to upgrade those JFT's further .

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## Ultima Thule

Trailer23 said:


> @Syed Hammad Ahmed - Hypothetically speaking, the Pakistan Air Force has a better chance of acquiring the Su-57 than India getting the F-35.
> 
> I said: hypothetically
> 
> Though, historically speaking...Pakistan had almost no connection with the former Soviet Union (currently Russia), but it appears that India has left them out in the dark as of late. First they ditched them with the Su-57 and now not looking to buy any jets other than a few (stored) MiG-29's from the late 80's.
> 
> So, I won't be too worried about something that doesn't exist in their inventory.


no bro Su-57 has no Chance for PAF, we just started our relation to Russia, Few years back there was rumors tha Pakistan interested in Su-35 but Russia says NO Su-35 for Pakistan, then how its possible that we will get Su-57 in near future, Su-57 has least chance for Pakistan, just my 2 cent bro @Trailer23

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## Irfan Baloch

Trailer23 said:


> @Syed Hammad Ahmed - Hypothetically speaking, the Pakistan Air Force has a better chance of acquiring the Su-57 than India getting the F-35.
> 
> *I said: hypothetically*
> 
> Though, historically speaking...Pakistan had almost no connection with the former Soviet Union (currently Russia), but it appears that India has left them out in the dark as of late. First they ditched them with the Su-57 and now not looking to buy any jets other than a few (stored) MiG-29's from the late 80's.
> 
> So, I won't be too worried about something that doesn't exist in their inventory.



I LOLed

and I let you off the hook but wait and see as some posters will see red and start ranting at you after reading the first sentence.
Indians still have top dollar military sales deals with Russians, Submarines and air defence systems are one example so , they havent left them in the dark

Indian diplomacy is great, they might get special exemptions to have S400 and be potential recipients of F 35
(they might go for Naval version thus reducing the similar American objections to Turkey)

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## Trailer23

Irfan Baloch said:


> ...but wait and see as some posters will see red and start ranting at you after reading the first sentence.


Yeah, I know those posers, oh, I mean posters might. But this is an independent forum and i'm giving my view.

As for your last point, I respect your opinion, but would have to disagree (currently). I never indicated that it would never happen - but currently they (India) haven't shown any interest and there is too much heat going about US/F-35/Turkey and US/Iran Oil/India going about for those doors to open.

By the time India signs up for the F-35, we'll be doing Test runs on Project AZM.


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## TsAr

SABRE said:


> You are more than welcome to correct me but because of the significantly restrictive nature of the American export controls laws, end-user agreement, & third party transfer agreement most advance European states tend not to incorporate American technologies on their weapons platforms. The only exception perhaps is SAAB Gripen. Americans were fairly dismayed when CERN did not even buy a screw from them for their collider let alone seek any advance equipment or scientific assistance for these reasons. I think the Europeans are fairly independent when it comes to jets like Eurofighter and Rafale. Britains Tempest fighter jet programme will probably have no American technology and engineering assistance either.


Most NATO countries are buying F-35 so your argument that European stay away from American countries does not hold true.


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## SABRE

TsAr said:


> Most NATO countries are buying F-35 so your argument that European stay away from American countries does not hold true.



It's not about buying a complete system or joint-ventures with the Americans, it's about incorporating American technology on what they are producing/developing indigenously. The advance Europeans states tend not to acquire anything from the Americans for that. Anything they plan on exporting in the future would not have American technology onboard.


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## New World

pakistanipower said:


> And not to forget sir political influences on PAF purchasing, especially for Mirage-2000 sega @MastanKhan


Political influence or corruption in the deal?
Either way that thing happened in F-16, Augusta A90 and some extent to Rose Program.
Imagine 40 Mirage 2000-5 of 1990s with used M2K of France and that technologies and missiles would have been used in JF-17 in its early phases of development and new F-16 of 2000s with used ones.

In 2010s PAF would have 60-80 upgraded M2K, 80-100 more advanced JF-17 with french technologies and 80-100 upgraded F-16.


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## MastanKhan

mingle said:


> In Vietnam they removed gun from F4 phantoms due to Aim 7 and sparrows no body can come close but they proved wrong again put the gun back. In war u never know what gonna happen so gun is as important as missiles r



Hi,

In vietnam era---when the phantom came out---there was no telephone in a pakistani house---maybe not a single land line phone in a small town---. One had to go to the telegraph office to book time to make a call---and look what everyone has now---.

When discussing about weapons---please give tactical explanations and reasoning for inclusion or exclusion---.

Can you define how an air to air gun battle would take place and what is involved in it---?

The americans are masters of deception when it comes to weapons---.

They have added a redundant weapon in the system---that they know---will not be used---but will confuse the enemy---.

The only reason the gun is on the F35 / F22 is because there are many in the congress and senate who saw the vietnam war---. They are illiterate of modern technology and need a lots of help from their younger workers to help them use that technology---so they have in grown prejudices or preferences---.

Things have changed as these old dogs are dying out---.

The USAF put the gun in the aircraft to please the old crowd to get its funding---. The USAF already knew that gun was outdated---even though they do practice with it---but for air superiority---they won't use it.

Being put in a position to use a gun---is like entrapment by the enemy---like the Paf did on the 27th---.

It created a scenario to trap the enemy to do something---so that the Paf would shoot it down with its assets---. The enemy fell for it and Paf shot 2 of them down---.

No USAF pilot will fall for that trap during the air superiority air war---.

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## Irfan Baloch

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> In vietnam era---when the phantom came out---there was no telephone in a pakistani house---maybe not a single land line phone in a small town---. One had to go to the telegraph office to book time to make a call---and look what everyone has now---.
> 
> When discussing about weapons---please give tactical explanations and reasoning for inclusion or exclusion---.
> 
> Can you define how an air to air gun battle would take place and what is involved in it---?
> 
> The americans are masters of deception when it comes to weapons---.
> 
> They have added a redundant weapon in the system---that they know---will not be used---but will confuse the enemy---.
> 
> The only reason the gun is on the F35 / F22 is because there are many in the congress and senate who saw the vietnam war---. They are illiterate of modern technology and need a lots of help from their younger workers to help them use that technology---so they have in grown prejudices or preferences---.
> 
> Things have changed as these old dogs are dying out---.
> 
> The USAF put the gun in the aircraft to please the old crowd to get its funding---. The USAF already knew that gun was outdated---even though they do practice with it---but for air superiority---they won't use it.
> 
> Being put in a position to use a gun---is like entrapment by the enemy---like the Paf did on the 27th---.
> 
> It created a scenario to trap the enemy to do something---so that the Paf would shoot it down with its assets---. The enemy fell for it and Paf shot 2 of them down---.
> 
> No USAF pilot will fall for that trap during the air superiority air war---.


the first part was savage and expert level 1000
nicely explained

re having or not having gun I have read and saw arguments from both sides and I am now leaving towards the no gun side because thats how modern battle is evolving.
there is a video on the web used many times in discussion here on forum where the guy is criticizing F 35 and insists that a merge in air combat is inevitable and thats were the guns will come handy
the counter arguments I have seen a lot or heard so I dont need to be sold again, the modern air war is such that you want to see an enemy before hand and deploy an appropriate weapon well before he knows you and he is done for .. so having a cannon becomes redundant. the weight and space saved from removing cannon and ammo can be used for an additional missile(s) or further sensors etc.

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## CriticalThought

Irfan Baloch said:


> the first part was savage and expert level 1000
> nicely explained
> 
> re having or not having gun I have read and saw arguments from both sides and I am now leaving towards the no gun side because thats how modern battle is evolving.
> there is a video on the web used many times in discussion here on forum where the guy is criticizing F 35 and insists that a merge in air combat is inevitable and thats were the guns will come handy
> the counter arguments I have seen a lot or heard so I dont need to be sold again, the modern air war is such that you want to see an enemy before hand and deploy an appropriate weapon well before he knows you and he is done for .. so having a cannon becomes redundant. the weight and space saved from removing cannon and ammo can be used for an additional missile(s) or further sensors etc.



At the cost of being derided, the case being presented by Indians about F-16 downed by MIG is theoretically valid. Everything has a blind spot, including F-35. If it is passing a mountain range, its sensor fused HMDS cannot show what lies behind the mountain range. If an enemy is flying in tight formation, it cannot see fighters hidden by the leading ones. There are no technological solutions to this. These are constraints placed by the laws of physics. Which means even the F-35 can find itself in a dog fight in the thick of battle.

War in unpredictable. Don't try to fight its unpredictability you will only end up getting bitten.


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## Irfan Baloch

CriticalThought said:


> At the cost of being derided, the case being presented by Indians about F-16 downed by MIG is theoretically valid. Everything has a blind spot, including F-35. If it is passing a mountain range, its sensor fused HMDS cannot show what lies behind the mountain range. If an enemy is flying in tight formation, it cannot see fighters hidden by the leading ones. There are no technological solutions to this. These are constraints placed by the laws of physics. Which means even the F-35 can find itself in a dog fight in the thick of battle.
> 
> War in unpredictable. Don't try to fight its unpredictability you will only end up getting bitten.


if such extreme scenario happens then anything is possible.
such airforce is not worthy of flying F 35. 

if we look in such cases in isolation then yea everything is possible to F22 even

when it comes to America there is a wast list of assets at the disposal of the Americans that even the jets are a sensor nodes in there. yes if F 35 itself is blinded then there are other assets in air and space that will help it out.

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## CriticalThought

Irfan Baloch said:


> if such extreme scenario happens then anything is possible.
> such airforce is not worthy of flying F 35.
> 
> if we look in such cases in isolation then yea everything is possible to F22 even
> 
> when it comes to America there is a wast list of assets at the disposal of the Americans that even the jets are a sensor nodes in there. yes if F 35 itself is blinded then there are other assets in air and space that will help it out.



Read my last para again.


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## Humble Analyst

I have various times mentioned all the following points in favor of the guns on fighters and especially multirole planes.
I will put them all together just in case they present all aspect, or they may go through the barriers of thought process.
1- In countries who share borders a WVR combat cannot be ruled out.Try to imagine various situations and it is not hard
2- There are limited number of points for missiles and EW. Once missiles are out either you break or you use your gun. If you do not have gun obviously you will break away. Same can happen to the interceptor. No weapons he breaks away. In future electronic jamming can result in WVR combat. Will you say I am out if missiles so bye.
3- Depending on the size of Air Force and resources, so many sorties can be flown so you want to have force multipliers, gun is a force multiplier. Ask those who are already loaded with EW pods or bombs and now they are in WVR and short on missiles.
4- Small to medium size air forces cannot dedicate too many planes to exclusive missions and will use the gun for tactical support.
5- The type of gun may evolve and maybe different from today’s cannon so please open the brain barrier.
Below is a link which I am posting again. Open you mind or you can keep on praising each other who think gun will disappear in air combat or tactical support.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/b...eneration-fighters-firing-laser-weapons-55587


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## MastanKhan

Irfan Baloch said:


> if such extreme scenario happens then anything is possible.
> such airforce is not worthy of flying F 35.
> 
> if we look in such cases in isolation then yea everything is possible to F22 even
> 
> when it comes to America there is a wast list of assets at the disposal of the Americans that even the jets are a sensor nodes in there. yes if F 35 itself is blinded then there are other assets in air and space that will help it out.



Hi,

Most posters just want to talk---but do not want to create an actual scenario where guns could be used.

When using a gun---just before---you focus on the target that come within your focus---now you are chasing and trying to get behind at and then trying to reduce the distance around 500 meters---and you are about to pull the trigger when you see red hot searing heat all around you before you get obliterated after your aircraft had explode---.

What had happened was when you started to chase that aircraft to line him up for a gun short---the intensity of the chase and the energy required you to keep focus on the target made you oblivious any any threat---you had grown tunnel vision---you had lost your hearing ability during that chase and in the heat of the moment you did not hear the missile lock and missile launch warning coming from the console to your ears---even though the warning were blaring in your ears---the enemy SU30 had locked & launched a volley of 2 bvr missiles at you from a distance---.

In a similar scenario---close to the border---the enemy could launch a SA missile at you---while you chase a gun shot target---.

The TIME that is needed to chase a target---get it in your gun's range lock and shoot is too long in an environment where an enemy can shoot fro 20-30-40 miles away---.


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## Thorough Pro

That is where AWACS come in to play, flying high and far, seeing and showing the big picture to friendly fighters.
USAF does not send in their fighters without first knowing what lies ahead and to the sides, they don't jump in to action thinking "will cross the river when we reach there", they do their homework, gathering intelligence from all available sources, building the big picture and planning ahead making sure no surprises pop out in their faces and that is the secret of their success. 




CriticalThought said:


> At the cost of being derided, the case being presented by Indians about F-16 downed by MIG is theoretically valid. Everything has a blind spot, including F-35. If it is passing a mountain range, its sensor fused HMDS cannot show what lies behind the mountain range. If an enemy is flying in tight formation, it cannot see fighters hidden by the leading ones. There are no technological solutions to this. These are constraints placed by the laws of physics. Which means even the F-35 can find itself in a dog fight in the thick of battle.
> 
> War in unpredictable. Don't try to fight its unpredictability you will only end up getting bitten.


----------



## CriticalThought

Thorough Pro said:


> That is where AWACS come in to play, flying high and far, seeing and showing the big picture to friendly fighters.
> USAF does not send in their fighters without first knowing what lies ahead and to the sides, they don't jump in to action thinking "will cross the river when we reach there", they do their homework, gathering intelligence from all available sources, building the big picture and planning ahead making sure no surprises pop out in their faces and that is the secret of their success.



The US comprises humans who are every bit as prone to making mistakes, as prone to falling for deception as the next guy. Drop this mentality where you see them as super humans. If your fundamentals are strong, you can give them a bloody nose. The real power of the US comes from their depth. You can beat them in a battle, but they will simply keep coming at you until they defeat you in the war. You need depth and a global reach to take on the USAF, not to mention you would be contending with their army and navy at the same time along with economic sanctions. What PAF pilots have achieved in Red Flag and other bilateral exercises is significant. It is living proof that tactics work and the US is just as prone to them. Our Mirage pilot buzzing their carrier is hard evidence of this.



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Most posters just want to talk---but do not want to create an actual scenario where guns could be used.
> 
> When using a gun---just before---you focus on the target that come within your focus---now you are chasing and trying to get behind at and then trying to reduce the distance around 500 meters---and you are about to pull the trigger when you see red hot searing heat all around you before you get obliterated after your aircraft had explode---.
> 
> What had happened was when you started to chase that aircraft to line him up for a gun short---the intensity of the chase and the energy required you to keep focus on the target made you oblivious any any threat---you had grown tunnel vision---you had lost your hearing ability during that chase and in the heat of the moment you did not hear the missile lock and missile launch warning coming from the console to your ears---even though the warning were blaring in your ears---the enemy SU30 had locked & launched a volley of 2 bvr missiles at you from a distance---.
> 
> In a similar scenario---close to the border---the enemy could launch a SA missile at you---while you chase a gun shot target---.
> 
> The TIME that is needed to chase a target---get it in your gun's range lock and shoot is too long in an environment where an enemy can shoot fro 20-30-40 miles away---.



This is a very single minded world view and ignores the huge variability present in any war. There are two steps to discredit this view. Step 1 shows how two aircrafts can end up within WVR range on a modern battle field. Step 2 considers what happens once you are out of ammo. Do you turn tail? In that case you face an increased risk of being shot down. If you have a cannon, it gives you the option to keep fighting.

In detail, consider the case where enemy fighters are escorting a HVT which you are tasked with taking down. It could be a cargo plane, a VIP movement, or even an AEWACS. If you consume all your missiles fighting off the escort, you are in the ridiculous situation where you have a sitting duck that you can't shoot.

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## Raider 21

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> In vietnam era---when the phantom came out---there was no telephone in a pakistani house---maybe not a single land line phone in a small town---. One had to go to the telegraph office to book time to make a call---and look what everyone has now---.
> 
> When discussing about weapons---please give tactical explanations and reasoning for inclusion or exclusion---.
> 
> Can you define how an air to air gun battle would take place and what is involved in it---?
> 
> The americans are masters of deception when it comes to weapons---.
> 
> They have added a redundant weapon in the system---that they know---will not be used---but will confuse the enemy---.
> 
> The only reason the gun is on the F35 / F22 is because there are many in the congress and senate who saw the vietnam war---. They are illiterate of modern technology and need a lots of help from their younger workers to help them use that technology---so they have in grown prejudices or preferences---.
> 
> Things have changed as these old dogs are dying out---.
> 
> The USAF put the gun in the aircraft to please the old crowd to get its funding---. The USAF already knew that gun was outdated---even though they do practice with it---but for air superiority---they won't use it.
> 
> Being put in a position to use a gun---is like entrapment by the enemy---like the Paf did on the 27th---.
> 
> It created a scenario to trap the enemy to do something---so that the Paf would shoot it down with its assets---. The enemy fell for it and Paf shot 2 of them down---.
> 
> No USAF pilot will fall for that trap during the air superiority air war---.


What about the Navy and the Marine Corps. What is their justification behind having a gun on the aircraft.


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## MastanKhan

Knuckles said:


> What about the Navy and the Marine Corps. What is their justification behind having a gun on the aircraft.



What type of aircraft---?


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## Thorough Pro

No, I don't think they are super humans, read my comments in light of the post i responded to.




CriticalThought said:


> The US comprises humans who are every bit as prone to making mistakes, as prone to falling for deception as the next guy. Drop this mentality where you see them as super humans. If your fundamentals are strong, you can give them a bloody nose. The real power of the US comes from their depth. You can beat them in a battle, but they will simply keep coming at you until they defeat you in the war. You need depth and a global reach to take on the USAF, not to mention you would be contending with their army and navy at the same time along with economic sanctions. What PAF pilots have achieved in Red Flag and other bilateral exercises is significant. It is living proof that tactics work and the US is just as prone to them. Our Mirage pilot buzzing their carrier is hard evidence of this.
> 
> 
> 
> This is a very single minded world view and ignores the huge variability present in any war. There are two steps to discredit this view. Step 1 shows how two aircrafts can end up within WVR range on a modern battle field. Step 2 considers what happens once you are out of ammo. Do you turn tail? In that case you face an increased risk of being shot down. If you have a cannon, it gives you the option to keep fighting.
> 
> In detail, consider the case where enemy fighters are escorting a HVT which you are tasked with taking down. It could be a cargo plane, a VIP movement, or even an AEWACS. If you consume all your missiles fighting off the escort, you are in the ridiculous situation where you have a sitting duck that you can't shoot.


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## GriffinsRule

Knuckles said:


> What about the Navy and the Marine Corps. What is their justification behind having a gun on the aircraft.


CAS


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## CriticalThought

Thorough Pro said:


> No, I don't think they are super humans, read my comments in light of the post i responded to.



The AEWACs is prone to the same blind spot as everyone else. MIMO processing of EM signals is a DARPA hard problem. Even with multiple AEWACs you are not assured a 100% accurate picture. If you really understand the second sentence of this post, you will know what I am referring to.


----------



## Humble Analyst

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Most posters just want to talk---but do not want to create an actual scenario where guns could be used.
> 
> When using a gun---just before---you focus on the target that come within your focus---now you are chasing and trying to get behind at and then trying to reduce the distance around 500 meters---and you are about to pull the trigger when you see red hot searing heat all around you before you get obliterated after your aircraft had explode---.
> 
> What had happened was when you started to chase that aircraft to line him up for a gun short---the intensity of the chase and the energy required you to keep focus on the target made you oblivious any any threat---you had grown tunnel vision---you had lost your hearing ability during that chase and in the heat of the moment you did not hear the missile lock and missile launch warning coming from the console to your ears---even though the warning were blaring in your ears---the enemy SU30 had locked & launched a volley of 2 bvr missiles at you from a distance---.
> 
> In a similar scenario---close to the border---the enemy could launch a SA missile at you---while you chase a gun shot target---.
> 
> The TIME that is needed to chase a target---get it in your gun's range lock and shoot is too long in an environment where an enemy can shoot fro 20-30-40 miles away---.


I keep hearing about no scenarios of gun utility, either sir you do not read or ignore or there is a block in imagination.
So now let the time decide as you and your like minded posters will not decide same as us who believe in gun utility are not the designers of the 6th generation fighters

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## Ultima Thule

CriticalThought said:


> The AEWACs is prone to the same blind spot as everyone else. MIMO processing of EM signals is a DARPA hard problem. Even with multiple AEWACs you are not assured a 100% accurate picture. If you really understand the second sentence of this post, you will know what I am referring to.


And long range ground radars Can able to cover these blind spots @CriticalThought


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## MastanKhan

Humble Analyst said:


> I keep hearing about no scenarios of gun utility, either sir you do not read or ignore or there is a block in imagination.
> So now let the time decide as you and your like minded posters will not decide same as us who believe in gun utility are not the designers of the 6th generation fighters



Hi,

time has already decided about the fate of the gun---. There have not been any aircraft shot down in two decades with guns---.

In our primary air to air combat theatre---during the war of air superiority---there will be no gun battles---.

Gun battle means TARGET FIXATION---and time to lock onto the target. Target fixation and time are a death sentence to a pilot---.

This is personal experience---me---myself---I got caught in a "target fixation" mode one time---I do not know how I survived---it was a miracle---.

Now remember where the basic conversation started awhile ago---. An aircraft has used its missiles and coming home and finds a target of opportunity-- I said that the aircraft has no fuel---it needs to go home and prepare for the next sortie---.

A dog fight is a prolonged affair for an aircraft that has already used its missiles and low on fuel---the pilot is tired and drained out---.


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## CriticalThought

pakistanipower said:


> And long range ground radars Can able to cover these blind spots @CriticalThought



Ground radars are actually notorious for their blind spots. I can post links to research papers which gambit has previously shared as well.

But you are right. A well constructed air defence network, comprising distributed assets in the air and on the surface are needed to defend against any aggressor. But the present discussion is about US air power and their ability to gain situational awareness. And the point is, if you are the defender against USAF, you can use tactics and terrain to take away their advantage, despite them fielding the F-35.

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## Silicon0000

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> time has already decided about the fate of the gun---. There have not been any aircraft shot down in two decades with guns---.
> 
> In our primary air to air combat theatre---during the war of air superiority---there will be no gun battles---.
> 
> Gun battle means TARGET FIXATION---and time to lock onto the target. Target fixation and time are a death sentence to a pilot---.
> 
> This is personal experience---me---myself---I got caught in a "target fixation" mode one time---I do not know how I survived---it was a miracle---.
> 
> Now remember where the basic conversation started awhile ago---. An aircraft has used its missiles and coming home and finds a target of opportunity-- I said that the aircraft has no fuel---it needs to go home and prepare for the next sortie---.
> 
> A dog fight is a prolonged affair for an aircraft that has already used its missiles and low on fuel---the pilot is tired and drained out---.



Best use of Guns could be use of Guns to target low value targets like drone where value of your missile is much more than the target like a quad copter. Although Use of newer generation aircraft in that scenario is also questionable but it could be a possibility.


----------



## GriffinsRule

Silicon0000 said:


> Best use of Guns could be use of Guns to target low value targets like drone where value of your missile is much more than the target like a quad copter. Although Use of newer generation aircraft in that scenario is also questionable but it could be a possibility.


Shooting low and slow moving targets such as helicopter that you can't get a lock on with your missiles. 
Guns also are used against convoys and soft targets.

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## Raider 21

MastanKhan said:


> What type of aircraft---?


Fighters.

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## Keysersoze

CriticalThought said:


> Ground radars are actually notorious for their blind spots. I can post links to research papers which gambit has previously shared as well.
> 
> But you are right. A well constructed air defence network, comprising distributed assets in the air and on the surface are needed to defend against any aggressor. But the present discussion is about US air power and their ability to gain situational awareness. And the point is, if you are the defender against USAF, you can use tactics and terrain to take away their advantage, despite them fielding the F-35.


I think the best answer is to think of this as being the same as defending against burglary. If they want to get in, they will. But the trick is to make it as hard as possible for them.


MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> time has already decided about the fate of the gun---. There have not been any aircraft shot down in two decades with guns---.
> 
> In our primary air to air combat theatre---during the war of air superiority---there will be no gun battles---.
> 
> Gun battle means TARGET FIXATION---and time to lock onto the target. Target fixation and time are a death sentence to a pilot---.
> 
> This is personal experience---me---myself---I got caught in a "target fixation" mode one time---I do not know how I survived---it was a miracle---.
> 
> Now remember where the basic conversation started awhile ago---. An aircraft has used its missiles and coming home and finds a target of opportunity-- I said that the aircraft has no fuel---it needs to go home and prepare for the next sortie---.
> 
> A dog fight is a prolonged affair for an aircraft that has already used its missiles and low on fuel---the pilot is tired and drained out---.


U.S. Air Force major Stuart Nichols explained in a 1998 paper for the Air Command and Staff College.

"The gun is a simple weapon system to employ and maintain," Nichols added. "It cannot be degraded by enemy electronic countermeasures or flare decoys which all help to degrade missile performance. Another significant benefit of using a gun is that it isn’t reliant on the aircraft’s radar system. Radar missiles must work in concert with the aircraft’s radar, which is very susceptible to enemy aircraft maneuver and countermeasures."



The U.S. Air Force has revealed that a ground-based surrogate for a laser weapon system that could protect American fighter jets and other aircraft from incoming threats in the future has successfully shot down multiple air-launched missiles in a test. The service's publicly stated goal is to have a podded prototype system ready for actual flight tests by 2021 and an actual operational capability by the end of the decade.

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## Apocalypse



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## MastanKhan

hI

What got the controversy started was that the F22 / F35 would not engage in a gun fight---because it took away their technical superiority---and may put them at 50/50 odds.

Then what came next was a fighter after going home after spending its missiles may find a straggler that it may want to shoot down---. And I said no---getting home is more important rather than deviating---.

And that is where it was and then you jumped in head first into the fire---and a couple of other posters as well.

"It is better to shoot at a slower moving target with a missile than a gun---. In a gun shot---you have to get very close to get a shot---you aircraft may have to swallow the debris---missile is expensive---but it is still safe---".


----------



## fatman17

Air Platforms

Pakistan Air Force prepares for arrival of final Block II JF-17 and JF-17B fighter aircraft

Alan Warnes, Kamra - Jane's Defence Weekly

15 May 2019

Follow

RSS


One of the latest JF-17 Block II aircraft to come off the production line at PAC Kamra. Source: Alan Warnes

The final three Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) JF-17 Thunder Block II multirole combat aircraft are set to be delivered to the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) by late June, the service has told Jane's .

The aircraft are part of an order placed by the PAF in late 2017 for an additional 12 platforms that are currently on the Aircraft Manufacturing Factory (AMF) final assembly line at PAC Kamra. AMF has built more than 100 JF-17s since the first JF-17 (serialled 09-111) was rolled out in November 2009.

Production of the Block III variant is expected to begin later this year PAF Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan told Jane's, adding that the service "will make a decision on one of the two new Chinese AESA [airborne electronically scanned-array] radars we are currently evaluating for these aircraft". He noted that, although supportability and cost will be factors in the decision, the service hopes to have the aircraft operating with the new radar by March 2020.

The Nanjing Research Institute of Electronics Technology's KLJ-7A radar is being marketed by China Electronics Technology Group Corporation (CETC) with air-cooling and liquid-cooling options. The second contender is Leihua Electronic Technology Research Institute (LETRI), which offers an air-cooling AESA radar known as the LKF601E.

Meanwhile, the Aircraft Repair Factory (ARF) at PAC Kamra recently completed its first 1,000th hour inspection on the first JF-17. This comes after PAC Kamra and China's Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation (CAC), which co-developed the fighter, worked on two JF-17s each to develop the working procedures.

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## Keysersoze

fatman17 said:


> Air Platforms
> 
> Pakistan Air Force prepares for arrival of final Block II JF-17 and JF-17B fighter aircraft
> 
> Alan Warnes, Kamra - Jane's Defence Weekly
> 
> 15 May 2019
> 
> Follow
> 
> RSS
> 
> 
> One of the latest JF-17 Block II aircraft to come off the production line at PAC Kamra. Source: Alan Warnes
> 
> The final three Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) JF-17 Thunder Block II multirole combat aircraft are set to be delivered to the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) by late June, the service has told Jane's .
> 
> The aircraft are part of an order placed by the PAF in late 2017 for an additional 12 platforms that are currently on the Aircraft Manufacturing Factory (AMF) final assembly line at PAC Kamra. AMF has built more than 100 JF-17s since the first JF-17 (serialled 09-111) was rolled out in November 2009.
> 
> Production of the Block III variant is expected to begin later this year PAF Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan told Jane's, adding that the service "will make a decision on one of the two new Chinese AESA [airborne electronically scanned-array] radars we are currently evaluating for these aircraft". He noted that, although supportability and cost will be factors in the decision, the service hopes to have the aircraft operating with the new radar by March 2020.
> 
> The Nanjing Research Institute of Electronics Technology's KLJ-7A radar is being marketed by China Electronics Technology Group Corporation (CETC) with air-cooling and liquid-cooling options. The second contender is Leihua Electronic Technology Research Institute (LETRI), which offers an air-cooling AESA radar known as the LKF601E.
> 
> Meanwhile, the Aircraft Repair Factory (ARF) at PAC Kamra recently completed its first 1,000th hour inspection on the first JF-17. This comes after PAC Kamra and China's Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation (CAC), which co-developed the fighter, worked on two JF-17s each to develop the working procedures.
> View attachment 560120



Probably been mentioned already but that blk 2 seems to have an increase in composite. If you look at the A model above the extra composite panel in the side.

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## PakShaheen79

So, Block III production is YET TO START. All the rumors about Block-III flying this year seems incorrect. March 2020 is the time ACM eying and most probably 23rd will be date it will officially fly.


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## syed_yusuf

If blk 3 rolling off in August it mush be in assembling face to be rolled out by mid to late August


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## MastanKhan

Knuckles said:


> Fighters.



Hi,

In a sea battle---with the enemy aircraft targeting american ships in large numbers and launching sub sonic AShM missiles at them---american aircraft engaging the enemy aircraft and some trying to chase down sub sonic cruise missiles---as the A to A missiles were gone---the gun remained---the last ditch effort to take the missiles down---?????


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## khanasifm

The 7th sqn would be full strength in June ?? Assuming 12 plus 2 jf b model may be for 7th sqn ??


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## fatman17

The last three Pakistan Aeronautical Complex JF-17 Thunder Block II multirole combat aircraft are scheduled to arrive for the Pakistan Air Force by the end of June. The JF-17 Thunder is single-engine, multi-role combat aircraft utilized primarily by Pakistan for aerial reconnaissance, ground attack and aircraft interception. Pakistan’s first Thunder aircraft was rolled out in 2009. The Pakistan Air Force ordered additional 12 platforms in 2017. The JF-17s are currently on the Aircraft Manufacturing Factory final assembly line. Approximately 25 Block II variants of the JF-17 were being manufactured in Pakistan annually. Production will be terminated in favor of the upcoming JF-17 Block III. Block III production will start later this year. There is yet to be made a decision, which radar will be integrated into the aircraft.

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## mdmm

Kindly reveals that how many new JF-17 Block III will be added to PAF by the end of 2020.How many manufactured in China and how many in Pakistan ??
Are these 4th generation or fifth gen ??


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## randomradio

Something that even our officers pointed out after Balakot. 

@krash @Knuckles @Bilal Khan 777 @Oscar @denel @Khafee @MastanKhan @The Deterrent @Nilgiri @Hellfire @MilSpec

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...-a-navy-f-14-fleet-pilot-turned-f-5-aggressor
_I flew BFM against a variety of dissimilar aircraft as a Tomcat pilot. During a memorable week off the coast of Pakistan we flew a number of BFM and BVR sorties against the Pakistani Air Force. I still have some spectacular HUD footage from engagements against MiG-21s (J-7s).

*I remember being amazed at the lack of proficiency and proper weapons employment from their F-16 pilots.*_

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## Khafee

randomradio said:


> Something that even our officers pointed out after Balakot.
> 
> @krash @Knuckles @Bilal Khan 777 @Oscar @denel @Khafee @MastanKhan @The Deterrent @Nilgiri @Hellfire @MilSpec
> 
> https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...-a-navy-f-14-fleet-pilot-turned-f-5-aggressor
> _I flew BFM against a variety of dissimilar aircraft as a Tomcat pilot. During a memorable week off the coast of Pakistan we flew a number of BFM and BVR sorties against the Pakistani Air Force. I still have some spectacular HUD footage from engagements against MiG-21s (J-7s).
> 
> *I remember being amazed at the lack of proficiency and proper weapons employment from their F-16 pilots.*_


And yet zero evidence from IAF, just BS as usual.

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## Quwa

Khafee said:


> And yet zero evidence from IAF, just BS as usual.


IIRC the 'BVR exercises' this guy was talking about must have been from the 1990s, i.e., during the embargo when Pakistan's F-16s _*didn't *_have BVR. @Khafee weren't F-6s also involved in this exercise, and didn't one sneak behind a F-14?

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## randomradio

Quwa said:


> IIRC the 'BVR exercises' this guy was talking about must have been from the 1990s, i.e., during the embargo when Pakistan's F-16s _*didn't *_have BVR. @Khafee weren't F-6s also involved in this exercise, and didn't one sneak behind a F-14?



You don't need a BVR missile in order to train for it.

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## Raider 21

Quwa said:


> IIRC the 'BVR exercises' this guy was talking about must have been from the 1990s, i.e., during the embargo when Pakistan's F-16s _*didn't *_have BVR. @Khafee weren't F-6s also involved in this exercise, and didn't one sneak behind a F-14?


PAF F-16s did sneak on Tomcats as well and the brand new F/A-18Cs.



randomradio said:


> Something that even our officers pointed out after Balakot.
> 
> @krash @Knuckles @Bilal Khan 777 @Oscar @denel @Khafee @MastanKhan @The Deterrent @Nilgiri @Hellfire @MilSpec
> 
> https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...-a-navy-f-14-fleet-pilot-turned-f-5-aggressor
> _I flew BFM against a variety of dissimilar aircraft as a Tomcat pilot. During a memorable week off the coast of Pakistan we flew a number of BFM and BVR sorties against the Pakistani Air Force. I still have some spectacular HUD footage from engagements against MiG-21s (J-7s).
> 
> *I remember being amazed at the lack of proficiency and proper weapons employment from their F-16 pilots.*_


I doubt the Balakot supposed raid worked out in favour of the Indian government to supposedly take out 300 people, for which there were almost no burials by the locals in the area. The IAF under the instructions from the Indian government tried to use Pakistan as a playground, dropped a few bombs and fled. PAF responded the next day.....we all know other than the Indian media how that went. Otherwise they wouldn't have been butt hurt to cry about AMRAAMs (they are meant to be fired, not for decoration purposes) and the use of Vipers in combat.

Regarding the US Navy pilot's article....he commented well on it (and that too is reflective during that time) but that is not conclusive to what I've read and heard from other pilots who conducted exercises with PAF Vipers.

Cheers!!!!

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## Avicenna

randomradio said:


> Something that even our officers pointed out after Balakot.
> 
> @krash @Knuckles @Bilal Khan 777 @Oscar @denel @Khafee @MastanKhan @The Deterrent @Nilgiri @Hellfire @MilSpec
> 
> https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...-a-navy-f-14-fleet-pilot-turned-f-5-aggressor
> _I flew BFM against a variety of dissimilar aircraft as a Tomcat pilot. During a memorable week off the coast of Pakistan we flew a number of BFM and BVR sorties against the Pakistani Air Force. I still have some spectacular HUD footage from engagements against MiG-21s (J-7s).
> 
> *I remember being amazed at the lack of proficiency and proper weapons employment from their F-16 pilots.*_



You have to remember that this likely took place in the 90's when the PAF was limited by sanctions.

This almost certainly translated into limitations in performance. (no known BVR capability and thus limited profiency although anti-BVR tactics were employed)

As an outside observer, the 90's (pre-9/11 certainly) appeared to be a dark time for PAF.

However, you can ask Abhinandnan what he thinks about the profieciency and weapons emplyoment of the PAF now.

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## randomradio

Knuckles said:


> Otherwise they wouldn't have been butt hurt to cry about AMRAAMs (they are meant to be fired, not for decoration purposes) and the use of Vipers in combat.



Our main aim for pointing out the use of AMRAAMs is to get the USG to sanction Pakistan over the use of the F-16s and force the withdrawal of the US as a major arms supplier of hitech weapons to Pakistan, which has worked to a significant extent. And more will be done after elections towards that goal.

Making this public has done wonders. Now the US cannot be seen publicly helping Pakistan under the watchful eyes of our media, and in extension, the people of India, or risk alienation. One of the prime reasons why the F-16 is now the F-21. So what looks like butthurt to you is actually carefully calculated manoeuvres to slowly move Pakistan away from Western suppliers as much as possible. And if it works, you should already know the repercussions.

As for Balakot, it's just my claim against your claim, so it's pointless to debate it. What's more interesting in the article I quoted is the Tomcat pilot's candid admission about Pakistani pilots. He was ridiculously specific there. And, much more importantly, matches what an IAF officer also pointed out.

Regards

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## Quwa

randomradio said:


> Our main aim for pointing out the use of AMRAAMs is to get the USG to sanction Pakistan over the use of the F-16s and force the withdrawal of the US as a major arms supplier of hitech weapons to Pakistan, which has worked to a significant extent. And more will be done after elections towards that goal.
> 
> Making this public has done wonders. Now the US cannot be seen publicly helping Pakistan under the watchful eyes of our media, and in extension, the people of India, or risk alienation. One of the prime reasons why the F-16 is now the F-21. So what looks like butthurt to you is actually carefully calculated manoeuvres to slowly move Pakistan away from Western suppliers as much as possible. And if it works, you should already know the repercussions.
> 
> As for Balakot, it's just my claim against your claim, so it's pointless to debate it. What's more interesting in the article I quoted is the Tomcat pilot's candid admission about Pakistani pilots. He was ridiculously specific there. And, much more importantly, matches what an IAF officer also pointed out.
> 
> Regards


Since we're all just saying things, the article could also be well-executed pandering to the F-21 market.

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## randomradio

Avicenna said:


> You have to remember that this likely took place in the 90's when the PAF was limited by sanctions.
> 
> This almost certainly translated into limitations in performance. (no known BVR capability and thus limited profiency although anti-BVR tactics were employed)



You don't need a missile to train for BVR. Already pointed it out. And the PAF F-16s could easily simulate BVR kills.

Also, when two air forces are facing each other without a common missile in their inventory, a fictional missile is simulated. The IAF simulates MICA with the French and a fictional missile with the Americans. So technically, IAF and USAF also do not have the Aim-120 during exercises, but still train for BVR.



> As an outside observer, the 90's (pre-9/11 certainly) appeared to be a dark time for PAF.



The 90s wasn't good for us either.



> However, you can ask Abhinandnan what he thinks about the profieciency and weapons emplyoment of the PAF now.



Let's just say it was the highlight of his career to date.



Quwa said:


> Since we're all just saying things, the article could also be well-executed pandering to the F-21 market.



Dunno how an F-14 article helps the chances of the F-21 here.

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## Myth_buster_1

randomradio said:


> Our main aim for pointing out the use of AMRAAMs is to get the USG to sanction Pakistan over the use of the F-16s and force the withdrawal of the US as a major arms supplier of hitech weapons to Pakistan, which has worked to a significant extent. And more will be done after elections towards that goal.
> 
> Making this public has done wonders. Now the US cannot be seen publicly helping Pakistan under the watchful eyes of our media, and in extension, the people of India, or risk alienation. One of the prime reasons why the F-16 is now the F-21. So what looks like butthurt to you is actually carefully calculated manoeuvres to slowly move Pakistan away from Western suppliers as much as possible. And if it works, you should already know the repercussions.
> 
> As for Balakot, it's just my claim against your claim, so it's pointless to debate it. What's more interesting in the article I quoted is the Tomcat pilot's candid admission about Pakistani pilots. He was ridiculously specific there. And, much more importantly, matches what an IAF officer also pointed out.
> 
> Regards



Pakistan has always been prone to US military sanctions since 1960s.


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## Raider 21

randomradio said:


> Our main aim for pointing out the use of AMRAAMs is to get the USG to sanction Pakistan over the use of the F-16s and force the withdrawal of the US as a major arms supplier of hitech weapons to Pakistan, which has worked to a significant extent. And more will be done after elections towards that goal.
> 
> Making this public has done wonders. Now the US cannot be seen publicly helping Pakistan under the watchful eyes of our media, and in extension, the people of India, or risk alienation. One of the prime reasons why the F-16 is now the F-21. So what looks like butthurt to you is actually carefully calculated manoeuvres to slowly move Pakistan away from Western suppliers as much as possible. And if it works, you should already know the repercussions.
> 
> As for Balakot, it's just my claim against your claim, so it's pointless to debate it. What's more interesting in the article I quoted is the Tomcat pilot's candid admission about Pakistani pilots. He was ridiculously specific there. And, much more importantly, matches what an IAF officer also pointed out.
> 
> Regards


I understand and I agree with the Tomcat driver (I know a Viper driver who has shot him in an exercise) . You have any info from the IAF officer who said that. Or was it in person. I'm interested out of curiosity on their point of view. Respectfully. 

Oh and more AMRAAMs are being worked on for PAF and Moroccan Vipers. 

Cheers!!!

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## Avicenna

randomradio said:


> You don't need a missile to train for BVR. Already pointed it out. And the PAF F-16s could easily simulate BVR kills.
> 
> Also, when two air forces are facing each other without a common missile in their inventory, a fictional missile is simulated. The IAF simulates MICA with the French and a fictional missile with the Americans. So technically, IAF and USAF also do not have the Aim-120 during exercises, but still train for BVR.
> 
> 
> 
> The 90s wasn't good for us either.
> 
> 
> 
> Let's just say it was the highlight of his career to date.
> 
> 
> 
> Dunno how an F-14 article helps the chances of the F-21 here.



Again, PAF was hobbled by sanctions. (IAF was not.)

I can't quantify it, however, I would think that would have some effect on training etc. etc.

Resulting in degradation of capability.

Fast forward to 2019, you had the introduction of the Block 52, release of additonal Block 15OCU and subsequent MLU and 500 AMRAAMS.

Not to mention a successful JF-17 program with SD-10.

In addition to the better hardware, you likely had improved training in regards to the BVR sphere to effectively utilize the new hardware.

I remember following PAF as closely as possible for a layman in the states during the 90's and was genuinely concerned given all the limitations in place at the time. (US sanctions affecting F-16 fleet, uncertainty regarding availability of RD-93 for JF-17, etc...)

Just saying the limitations of those days may have affected performance.


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## Nilgiri

randomradio said:


> Something that even our officers pointed out after Balakot.
> 
> @krash @Knuckles @Bilal Khan 777 @Oscar @denel @Khafee @MastanKhan @The Deterrent @Nilgiri @Hellfire @MilSpec
> 
> https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...-a-navy-f-14-fleet-pilot-turned-f-5-aggressor
> _I flew BFM against a variety of dissimilar aircraft as a Tomcat pilot. During a memorable week off the coast of Pakistan we flew a number of BFM and BVR sorties against the Pakistani Air Force. I still have some spectacular HUD footage from engagements against MiG-21s (J-7s).
> 
> *I remember being amazed at the lack of proficiency and proper weapons employment from their F-16 pilots.*_



We are supposed to care about whats said in echo chamber forums like this one about such topics? lol.


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## Keysersoze

Nilgiri said:


> We are supposed to care about whats said in echo chamber forums like this one about such topics? lol.


Why the hell are you here then?

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## blain2

randomradio said:


> Something that even our officers pointed out after Balakot.
> 
> @krash @Knuckles @Bilal Khan 777 @Oscar @denel @Khafee @MastanKhan @The Deterrent @Nilgiri @Hellfire @MilSpec
> 
> https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...-a-navy-f-14-fleet-pilot-turned-f-5-aggressor
> _I flew BFM against a variety of dissimilar aircraft as a Tomcat pilot. During a memorable week off the coast of Pakistan we flew a number of BFM and BVR sorties against the Pakistani Air Force. I still have some spectacular HUD footage from engagements against MiG-21s (J-7s).
> 
> *I remember being amazed at the lack of proficiency and proper weapons employment from their F-16 pilots.*_




I am okay with this perception. What matters is when things count.

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## randomradio

Knuckles said:


> I understand and I agree with the Tomcat driver (I know a Viper driver who has shot him in an exercise) . You have any info from the IAF officer who said that. Or was it in person. I'm interested out of curiosity on their point of view. Respectfully.



It was an Air Marshal in a Youtube video. I can't find it.

It was a guy who was trying to explain what happened during the skirmish in layman terms and an Air Marshal was called in to help explain it all. The AM pointed out that Pak's BVR tactics employed were poor. That was the only thing of significance to take from the video though. Everything else in it was basically the same as whatever you have read in the media.

But what's interesting to note, unrelated to the above, is that most of what's been said in the media of both sides is not what actually happened. There's a lot more to the story that nobody is talking about. For example, nobody on both sides are talking about the two other sites that were bombed by the IAF.



> Oh and more AMRAAMs are being worked on for PAF and Moroccan Vipers.
> 
> Cheers!!!



Yep. It's about time PAF gets a new batch.

Anyway, I don't expect GoI's attempt at sanctioning Pakistan over F-16s to work out, but at best there is a chance cooperation for new stuff will end.


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## SQ8

randomradio said:


> Something that even our officers pointed out after Balakot.
> 
> @krash @Knuckles @Bilal Khan 777 @Oscar @denel @Khafee @MastanKhan @The Deterrent @Nilgiri @Hellfire @MilSpec
> 
> https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...-a-navy-f-14-fleet-pilot-turned-f-5-aggressor
> _I flew BFM against a variety of dissimilar aircraft as a Tomcat pilot. During a memorable week off the coast of Pakistan we flew a number of BFM and BVR sorties against the Pakistani Air Force. I still have some spectacular HUD footage from engagements against MiG-21s (J-7s).
> 
> *I remember being amazed at the lack of proficiency and proper weapons employment from their F-16 pilots.*_


Back when exactly? After the 90’s sanctions?

Still made no difference on the 27th

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## randomradio

blain2 said:


> I am okay with this perception. What matters is when things count.



Yep, that's always what matters. I always says that. Only the actual ground situation matters, everything else is just smoke and mirrors.


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## Thorough Pro

@Oscar @Bilal Khan 777 @Knuckles @Tps43


In the two pics, looking at where the wheel bay doors are in comparison to the wheels themselves, it "appears" the two seat versions have more ground clearance. 



Keysersoze said:


> Probably been mentioned already but that blk 2 seems to have an increase in composite. If you look at the A model above the extra composite panel in the side.
> 
> View attachment 560128


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## MastanKhan

randomradio said:


> Something that even our officers pointed out after Balakot.
> 
> @krash @Knuckles @Bilal Khan 777 @Oscar @denel @Khafee @MastanKhan @The Deterrent @Nilgiri @Hellfire @MilSpec
> 
> https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...-a-navy-f-14-fleet-pilot-turned-f-5-aggressor
> _I flew BFM against a variety of dissimilar aircraft as a Tomcat pilot. During a memorable week off the coast of Pakistan we flew a number of BFM and BVR sorties against the Pakistani Air Force. I still have some spectacular HUD footage from engagements against MiG-21s (J-7s).
> 
> *I remember being amazed at the lack of proficiency and proper weapons employment from their F-16 pilots.*_



Hi,

What a con artist your are---.

That was about Tomcat flying against pakistani F16's---possibly over 20 years ago---.

"
I flew BFM against a variety of dissimilar aircraft as a Tomcat pilot. During a memorable week off the coast of Pakistan we flew a number of BFM and BVR sorties against the Pakistani Air Force. I still have some spectacular HUD footage from engagements against MiG-21s (J-7s).

I remember being amazed at the lack of proficiency and proper weapons employment from their F-16 pilots. When we were in the Persian Gulf, we had a week where we fought the Emirati Mirage 2000-5 pilots. They were actually quite aggressive pilots who displayed a keen awareness of the tactics to employ against the weaknesses of the F-14A. They would jam to the merge, then pull 9Gs, flying so high we almost lost sight. If we did, they would tag us with a heater (infrared short-range guided missile). But if you could survive the first merge to employ follow-on BFM, they became easy prey".

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## SQ8

Pointless derailment of the thread halted.

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## Keysersoze

Oscar said:


> Back when exactly? After the 90’s sanctions?
> 
> Still made no difference on the 27th


Operation inspired alert. It ran during the 90s. He hasn't seen comments from other pilots about it.


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## Irfan Baloch

randomradio said:


> _
> *I remember being amazed at the lack of proficiency and proper weapons employment from their F-16 pilots.*_


seems like the PAF pilots improved themselves since then

2+1 to 0 against IAF
+1 being an own goal (by IAF)


note 0 is variable. from Indian perspective it varies from 350 (terrorists killed) to 40 (AMRAAMs dodged to 1 F16 shot down)
from Pakistani perspective its simply a 0. (but who cares about Pakistani perspective even the PAF pilots are joking with the F-16 pilot that he is dead because Indians say so)

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## Tejas Spokesman

randomradio said:


> Something that even our officers pointed out after Balakot.
> 
> @krash @Knuckles @Bilal Khan 777 @Oscar @denel @Khafee @MastanKhan @The Deterrent @Nilgiri @Hellfire @MilSpec
> 
> https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...-a-navy-f-14-fleet-pilot-turned-f-5-aggressor
> _I flew BFM against a variety of dissimilar aircraft as a Tomcat pilot. During a memorable week off the coast of Pakistan we flew a number of BFM and BVR sorties against the Pakistani Air Force. I still have some spectacular HUD footage from engagements against MiG-21s (J-7s).
> 
> *I remember being amazed at the lack of proficiency and proper weapons employment from their F-16 pilots.*_


Yes they did say that.


----------



## Keysersoze

Tejas Spokseman said:


> Yes they did say that.









Tejas Spokseman said:


> Yes they did say that.


However, the RAF has rubbished claims the IAF beat British crews '12-0' in the latest exercise, with a source describing the boast as "comical".

They said British pilots did not make use of the advanced technology at their disposal and were effectively fighting "with one arm behind their backs".

ADVERTISEMENT

_




GETTY


Indian Air Force Sukhoi Su-30MKI fighters were involved in the training mission
The RAF source told the Independent: "There must have been some clouded recollection on the flights back to India, as the headlines of the Indian press bear no relation to the results of the tactical scenarios completed on the exercise in any shape or form."


This is the difference between talking the talk and walking the walk....._

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## SQ8

Keysersoze said:


> Operation inspired alert. It ran during the 90s. He hasn't seen comments from other pilots about it.


In the 90s our F-16 pilots were barely managing the requisite hours

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## Keysersoze

Oscar said:


> In the 90s our F-16 pilots were barely managing the requisite hours


Who knows?It might have been less experienced pilots lack of flight time, bad day or any other factor. Plus taking on F14s over water was never going to be easy...Interestingly enough the mirages did well.

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## Raider 21

Keysersoze said:


> Who knows?It might have been less experienced pilots lack of flight time, bad day or any other factor. Plus taking on F14s over water was never going to be easy...Interestingly enough the mirages did well.


Students attached to the exercise.



Oscar said:


> In the 90s our F-16 pilots were barely managing the requisite hours


Logbooks still show they were doing 150-200 hours a year during that time.


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## SQ8

Knuckles said:


> Students attached to the exercise.
> 
> 
> Logbooks still show they were doing 150-200 hours a year during that time.


Per a viper pilot( one who had to eject due to an engine fire caused by Mirage part being used by a fellow) it was below the average in the 80’s.

Also why there was a proposal to create a neural feedback simulator to give acceleration and orientation sensations to our pilots and increase sim hours to offset lack of spares

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## ghazi52

PM, Air Chief discuss matters pertaining to PAF

May 17, 2019








Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan called on Prime Minister Imran Khan in Islamabad on Friday.

Professional matters pertaining to Pakistan Air Force were discussed during the meeting.

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## Keysersoze

Oscar said:


> Per a viper pilot( one who had to eject due to an engine fire caused by Mirage part being used by a fellow) it was below the average in the 80’s.
> 
> Also why there was a proposal to create a neural feedback simulator to give acceleration and orientation sensations to our pilots and increase sim hours to offset lack of spares


Take a look at this video. It's two F18 pilots playing DCS sim game with VR.

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## SQ8

Keysersoze said:


> Take a look at this video. It's two F18 pilots playing DCS sim game with VR.


The project never left the ground.. but it was to actually tap into the nervous system of the pilots to create g forces- having them shave their heads and so on.


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## Armchair

Because of the possibility of sanctions, and to counter the Rafale, PAF needs an interim bird. Here are my thoughts on why the MiG-35 could perhaps be suitable. 

*Political:*
With the US aligning with India and shifting production of F-16s there, and with Israel now helping India, Pakistan has to make necessary calculations in its geo-strategic posture. Making a major deal with Russia would give Pakistan breathing room in dealing with India. 

*Economic:*
If PAF is looking to counter the Rafale and does not have the budget to purchase J-10s for 60 million per piece, the MiG-35 offers some serious capabilities at a reasonable price. Most importantly, it could be engineered to have the ultimate commonality not only with the JFT but also with Azm. 

A MiG-35 frame rigged with Chinese weapons, radar, avionics, that are basically the same but a more powerful version of what will go into Block 3, would give PAF a commonality of most major LRUs and provide a plane with minimal logistics headache. 

What could a reasonable price look like? Airframe with engines, FBW, everything related to radar, electronics, missiles, etc Chinese. $20 million + $15 million = $35million per bird is a possibility. With minimal setup costs, because of engine and electronics commonality with the JF-17. 

*Strategic:*
The MiG-35 could provide parts for the Azm project, which will be of the same weight class (given twin RD-33s). This means PAF could gain parts manufacture strategically that can be used for the Azm project. Additionally, they could get engine MRO and parts manufacturing, giving greater independence and local capability in the long term. With all three future aircraft of the PAF - JFT, Azm and MiG-35 using the same engines, this would make a lot of logistic sense for the PAF. 

*Technology*
The MiG-35 is a solid airframe, and the engineering and aerodynamics are brilliant. The main downside of it are the less than par electronics and weapons. The airframe could be modified to PAF requirements, and with Chinese electronics similar to the Block 3, would give PAF a rough equivalent to the Rafale, at a bargain price. 
Modern BVR air combat requires high altitude and high speed performance (hi-hi), which allows the kinematic performance of the missile to have great range, speed and accuracy. The JFT does not compare well in this regard with the Rafale armed with Meteor. With the F-16s possibly being figured out and countered via Israel, and the Rafale even outperforming the F-16s, a new platform is critical for the kind of limited warfare seen on the 27th Feb. 

The MiG-35 has kinematics and weapons carriage capability similar to the Rafale, but lags far behind in the electronics, sensor fusion and avionics departments. With a Chinese AESA and assorted equipment, a Chinese LRAAM, the playing field gets evened out. 

*Environmental*
The next limited air war may happen in the flashpoint of Kashmir, with Indians looking to use Rafales in the same way PAF did. With a range and kinematics advantage. However, with MiG-35s in the equation, India's attempt to turn the tables would be thwarted. 

*Legal*
CAATSA may cause problems for such a deal to go through. 

Hope you enjoyed my analysis.

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## Humble Analyst

fatman17 said:


> so the author is correct!


Is it possible that Mi35 which is a Mi24 being mentioned here? Mi 35 is a version of mi 24


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## Trailer23

Humble Analyst said:


> Is it possible that Mi35 which is a Mi24 being mentioned here? Mi 35 is a version of mi 24


MiG-35 is actually a variant of the MiG-29.


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## Humble Analyst

Trailer23 said:


> MiG-35 is actually a variant of the MiG-29.


I mean mil 35 helicopter, Hind E Nato name, is a variant of Mil 24 hind.

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## MastanKhan

Irfan Baloch said:


> seems like the PAF pilots improved themselves since then
> 
> 2+1 - 0 against IAF
> +1 being an own goal
> 
> 
> note 0 is variable. from Indian perspective it varies from 350 (terrorists killed) to 40 (AMRAAMs dodged to 1 F16 shot down)
> from Pakistani perspective its simply a 0. (but who cares about Pakistani perspective even the PAF pilots are joking with the F-16 pilot that he is dead because Indians say so)



Hi,

The funny thing is that those emirati pilots were trained by pakistani trainers---.

So---what happened---did the pakistani pilots sabotage the exercise and intentionally under performed---.

Secondly---if you read the article in the link---The Tomcat had a thrust ratio of 0.67:1



Knuckles said:


> Students attached to the exercise.
> 
> 
> Logbooks still show they were doing 150-200 hours a year during that time.



Hi,

Were those emirati pilots trained by pakistani trainers---.

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## Raider 21

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The funny thing is that those emirati pilots were trained by pakistani trainers---.
> 
> So---what happened---did the pakistani pilots sabotage the exercise and intentionally under performed---.
> 
> Secondly---if you read the article in the link---The Tomcat had a thrust ratio of 0.67:1
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Were those emirati pilots trained by pakistani trainers---.


No. I was quoting some of the PAF Viper studs. 

Some of the Emiratis were at that time but not on Mirage 2000s...



Oscar said:


> Per a viper pilot( one who had to eject due to an engine fire caused by Mirage part being used by a fellow) it was below the average in the 80’s.
> 
> Also why there was a proposal to create a neural feedback simulator to give acceleration and orientation sensations to our pilots and increase sim hours to offset lack of spares


Well No. 14 squadron pilots flew beyond above average in the mid to late 1980s.


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## GriffinsRule

Knuckles said:


> No. I was quoting some of the PAF Viper studs.
> 
> Some of the Emiratis were at that time but not on Mirage 2000s...
> 
> 
> Well No. 14 squadron pilots flew beyond above average in the mid to late 1980s.



Also the low flying hours for the PAF were only in the early 90s. The Brown Amendment changed that in 1994 when restrictions were lifted and we got the spares we needed from the source. Even prior to that, I think we were still able to secure spares and such from third parties but not in the quantity required and pretty expensive, hence the reduced hours made sense (were made up by flying other aircrafts in PAF inventory).

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## MastanKhan

ghazi52 said:


> PM, Air Chief discuss matters pertaining to PAF
> 
> May 17, 2019
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan called on Prime Minister Imran Khan in Islamabad on Friday.
> 
> Professional matters pertaining to Pakistan Air Force were discussed during the meeting.



Hi,

Look at the body language difference between IK and the ACM---.

IK is like The Boss---one leg on top of other and shoe pointing directly at---.

The ACM is sitting with both his feet planted on the ground---one hand over the other---in front and protecting his jewels---with a happy smile on his face--.

It is amazing how things have changed in the military---. Every one of those generals is ready to say---" Sir---how high sir " with a smile on their faces---.

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## Raider 21

GriffinsRule said:


> Also the low flying hours for the PAF were only in the early 90s. The Brown Amendment changed that in 1994 when restrictions were lifted and we got the spares we needed from the source. Even prior to that, I think we were still able to secure spares and such from third parties but not in the quantity required and pretty expensive, hence the reduced hours made sense (were made up by flying other aircrafts in PAF inventory).


There was a short time during the early 90s when Vipers were grounded for 8-9 months after 2 crashes back to back. But after that they were flying regularly...that too under sanctions. My old man flew 500+ hours in the Viper between 91-94.

The spares kept coming, not as frequently, from both third party and GD.

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## mingle

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Look at the body language difference between IK and the ACM---.
> 
> IK is like The Boss---one leg on top of other and shoe pointing directly at---.
> 
> The ACM is sitting with both his feet planted on the ground---one hand over the other---in front and protecting his jewels---with a happy smile on his face--.
> 
> It is amazing how things have changed in the military---. Every one of those generals is ready to say---" Sir---how high sir " with a smile on their faces---.


Future requirements of PAF might discussed. I hope Air Cheif would say no to Russian jet.

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## fatman17

Military Capabilities

Pakistan Air Force moves into former Islamabad airport

Alan Warnes, Rawalpindi - Jane's Defence Weekly

15 May 2019


The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has taken over Islamabad's former Benazir Bhutto International Airport, located on the outskirts of the adjacent city of Rawalpindi. PAF Base Nur Khan, which had previously shared the runway and taxiways with the airport, is now responsible for the large passenger terminal and the adjacent ramp where the airliners once parked.

Il-78 aircraft have now moved onto the ramp of Pakistan's former Benazir Bhutto International Airport, which has now become part of PAF Base Nur Khan. (Alan Warnes)

The large apron is now home to No 10 Squadron's four Il-78 multirole tanker transport aircraft, which can now taxi to the runway without having to manoeuvre around the PAF's other aircraft. In the near future the PAF's passenger terminal, which is currently housed inside a small building in the base's complex, will also be relocated.

There are several shelter areas at the airport that are used for drills or high levels of alert. During the recent stand-off with India, known locally as Operation 'Swift Retort', a detachment of PAF JF-17 Thunder fighter aircraft were deployed to the base to defend Islamabad.


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## GriffinsRule

Knuckles said:


> There was a short time during the early 90s when Vipers were grounded for 8-9 months after 2 crashes back to back. But after that they were flying regularly...that too under sanctions. My old man flew 500+ hours in the Viper between 91-94.
> 
> The spares kept coming, not as frequently, from both third party and GD.


Yes I recall those crashes were due to using parts past their expiration or something along those lines. Were dark times for PAF indeed.


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## Raider 21

GriffinsRule said:


> Yes I recall those crashes were due to using parts past their expiration or something along those lines. Were dark times for PAF indeed.


It was a generic engine design flaw or turbine blade failures....something along those lines... for the PW F100s.


----------



## fatman17

Home › News › First air-to-air kill for JF-17?



*First air-to-air kill for JF-17?*
Published: February 28th, 2019

Photo: Alan Warnes

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## CriticalThought

fatman17 said:


> Home › News › First air-to-air kill for JF-17?
> 
> 
> 
> *First air-to-air kill for JF-17?*
> Published: February 28th, 2019
> 
> Photo: Alan Warnes



Entire story is based on 'increasingly likely', 'unconfirmed reports' and tweets. PAF wants it to remain ambiguous and ambiguous it shall remain.

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## fatman17

CriticalThought said:


> Entire story is based on 'increasingly likely', 'unconfirmed reports' and tweets. PAF wants it to remain ambiguous and ambiguous it shall remain.


Maybe so but pictures don't lie.


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## CriticalThought

fatman17 said:


> Maybe so but pictures don't lie.



Sir pictures can be photo-shopped. The problem is, in the absence of an official announcement, an encyclopedia entry will not state that JF-17 has a confirmed kill. This is the negative side-effect of holding back information. If someone was to argue with me, I would not be able to present a convincing argument.

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## ghazi52

In 1945 Aerial view of Air Base Korangi Creek, Karachi :

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## fatman17

CriticalThought said:


> Sir pictures can be photo-shopped. The problem is, in the absence of an official announcement, an encyclopedia entry will not state that JF-17 has a confirmed kill. This is the negative side-effect of holding back information. If someone was to argue with me, I would not be able to present a convincing argument.


The Thunder pilot is going to get SJ for his kill. These are not given for photo shopping. Plus wait for ACM upcoming interview to the author of this article where he confirms the Thunder kill. This article was penned before the author met with the Chief.

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## CriticalThought

fatman17 said:


> The Thunder pilot is going to get SJ for his kill. These are not given for photo shopping. Plus wait for ACM upcoming interview to the author of this article where he confirms the Thunder kill. This article was penned before the author met with the Chief.



Thank you Sir. Anxiously awaiting the article and awards ceremony.

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## fatman17

The CAS confirmed the Su-30MKI kill in addition to the MiG-21 Bison. Also added that the IAF Mi-17 that was lost was shot down by its own side possibly by a MiG-21, in a ‘red on red’ incident. He reiterated that no PAF F-16 was lost.
Source Alan Warnes

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## ghazi52

Polish forces commander discusses mutual interests with Pak air chief

May 21, 2019

Commander Polish Armed Forces Lieutenant General Jaroslaw Mika visited Air Headquarters Islamabad, called on the Air Chief and discussed issues of bilateral interests with him here on Tuesday.

Upon his arrival at Air HQs, a smartly turned out contingent of Pakistan Air Force presented him the Guard of Honour. Commander Polish Armed Forces paid homage to the martyrs of PAF by laying floral wreath on Martyrs’ Monument. 

The visiting dignitary called on Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan during which various matters pertaining to regional security and areas of mutual cooperation came under discussion.

Commander Polish Armed Forces lauded the sound professionalism of PAF. Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan appreciated the enviable relations between both the air forces and also acknowledged the key role played by pioneering Polish officers in the development and modernization of PAF in its early years.

Both the dignitaries agreed to further enhance and expand mutual cooperation and defence ties between two countries.

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## BHarwana

JF-17 block 3 has already gone into production.

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## Ali_Baba

BHarwana said:


> JF-17 block 3 has already gone into production.



Only for the prototype for testing. Serial production will not start until the type is tested!

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## mingle

BHarwana said:


> JF-17 block 3 has already gone into production.


No pics??


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## BHarwana

Ali_Baba said:


> Only for the prototype for testing. Serial production will not start until the type is tested!



It is already gone in production the air frames are being produced already. The air frame is some what similar to block 2 with slight changes.



mingle said:


> No pics??


Nope I was reading the chief designers interview.

It has more composite material than block 2.

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## Trailer23

Ali_Baba said:


> Only for the prototype for testing. Serial production will not start until the type is tested!


Aray yaar, kumbakht Prototype ke he koi tasweer dikha do.

Waqi may, agar dikha jaey, sab-kay-sab Block III ke koi photo ka aisa intizaar kar rahay hai jaisay kay Khala album la rahe hain - jis may sari Super Models hain Rishtay kay leya.

Lord knows the level of disappointment that'll follow after realizing the Block III doesn't really differ from the earlier I & II from the exterior.

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## syed_yusuf

Trailer23 said:


> Aray yaar, kumbakht Prototype ke he koi tasweer dikha do.
> 
> Waqi may, agar dikha jaey, sab-kay-sab Block III ke koi photo ka aisa intizaar kar rahay hai jaisay kay Khala album la rahe hain - jis may sari Super Models hain Rishtay kay leya.
> 
> Lord knows the level of disappointment that'll follow after realizing the Block III doesn't really differ from the earlier I & II from the exterior.



I agree we all are up for some disappointing results of blk 3


----------



## mingle

syed_yusuf said:


> I agree we all are up for some disappointing results of blk 3


Blk 3 is AESA and PL15 with chin pod for turkish POD rest its same Aircraft yes Helmat mounted site.New EW and software that's it.

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## syed_yusuf

mingle said:


> Blk 3 is AESA and PL15 with chin pod for turkish POD rest its same Aircraft yes Helmat mounted site.New EW and software that's it.


I doubt that it will have any additional hard point 

Aesa and pl15 is pretty much settled

HMS well let's see and Advance short range ir missile well let's see 

Upgraded Ew suite we will never know the details 

Upgraded engine not too sure 

More internal fuel not too sure 

SOW like raad integration not too sure 

Upgraded FCS not too sure

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## Ultima Thule

syed_yusuf said:


> I doubt that it will have any additional hard point
> 
> Aesa and pl15 is pretty much settled
> 
> HMS well let's see and Advance short range ir missile well let's see
> 
> Upgraded Ew suite we will never know the details
> 
> Upgraded engine not too sure
> 
> More internal fuel not too sure
> 
> SOW like raad integration not too sure
> 
> Upgraded FCS not too sure


With exception of HMS 5th gen Short range air to air missiles rest of tech in Block-3 is already confirmed by senior/professional members here on PDF @syed_yusuf


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## syed_yusuf

pakistanipower said:


> With exception of HMS 5th gen Short range air to air missiles rest of tech in Block-3 is already confirmed by senior/professional members here on PDF @syed_yusuf


The only confirmed item is aesa and pl15 

Rest are speculation and probable solutions

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## Ultima Thule

syed_yusuf said:


> The only confirmed item is aesa and pl15
> 
> Rest are speculation and probable solutions



With exception of HMD/HMS all is already confirmed

new engine because AESA need more power

Full digital fly by wire system is On JF-17B an will on block-3

EW comes along AESA and mated with AESA then how do you know that EW will not upgraded and AESA has its own EW/ECM/ECCM features

lot senior member here giving us a hint that first 22 block-3 based on JF-17B which has increase wing area hence more fuel

If you look JF-17B and JF-17, JF-17B has more ground clearances than JF-17 which means its will carry SOW like RAAD, i already told you block-3 will based on JF-17B according to lots of senior/professional members here @syed_yusuf


----------



## khanasifm

Only thing confirmed or disclosed are 

@11:15





Rest all hooo haaa until it’s official

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## syed_yusuf

pakistanipower said:


> With exception of HMD/HMS all is already confirmed
> 
> new engine because AESA need more power
> 
> Full digital fly by wire system is On JF-17B an will on block-3
> 
> EW comes along AESA and mated with AESA then how do you know that EW will not upgraded and AESA has its own EW/ECM/ECCM features
> 
> lot senior member here giving us a hint that first 22 block-3 based on JF-17B which has increase wing area hence more fuel
> 
> If you look JF-17B and JF-17, JF-17B has more ground clearances than JF-17 which means its will carry SOW like RAAD, i already told you block-3 will based on JF-17B according to lots of senior/professional members here @syed_yusuf



I sincerely hope you are right 

If so I will be the happiest person 

God willing

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## Ultima Thule

syed_yusuf said:


> I sincerely hope you are right
> 
> If so I will be the happiest person
> 
> God willing


Not hope its already confirmed because its need have these type that upgrade to face the enemy @syed_yusuf


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## syed_yusuf

pakistanipower said:


> Not hope its already confirmed because its need have these type that upgrade to face the enemy @syed_yusuf


I sincerely hope u r right seeing is believing

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## Ultima Thule

syed_yusuf said:


> I sincerely hope u r right seeing is believing


these logical accessories for block-3 not just assumptions/speculations of mine @syed_yusuf


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## ZedZeeshan



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## Tamiyah

BHarwana said:


> It is already gone in production the air frames are being produced already. The air frame is some what similar to block 2 with slight changes.
> 
> 
> Nope I was reading the chief designers interview.
> 
> It has more composite material than block 2.


Have you seen it?


----------



## BHarwana

Tamiyah said:


> Have you seen it?


Nope I have not.

I read it.

Yang said that the development and batch production for the JF-17 Block 3 are going simultaneously, thanks to the broad experience.

Wei said this probably means while the upgrades like the new AESA radar are still in development, the airframe, which remains roughly the same, can be manufactured without waiting.

Once new developments are complete, they can be fitted on the airframe very fast, ensuring a quick delivery time, Wei said.

http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1141710.shtml

It is a bit old article and aesa for JF-17 is already here.

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## fatman17

United Nations Former Expert Adviser on Human Rights Mr Ansar Burney and Mrs Shaheen Burney along with Base Commander, Air Commodore Muhammad Sarfraz (Masroor AFB) visited the grave of 1965 HERO Air Commodore MM Alam and offered Fateha. https://t.co/lYQ20amxmQ

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## fatman17

fatman17 said:


> United Nations Former Expert Adviser on Human Rights Mr Ansar Burney and Mrs Shaheen Burney along with Base Commander, Air Commodore Muhammad Sarfraz (Masroor AFB) visited the grave of 1965 HERO Air Commodore MM Alam and offered Fateha. https://t.co/lYQ20amxmQ


MM Alam grave

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## fatman17

My story: Outgunned By Pak F-16s, IAF Plans To Re-Arm Its Sukhois With Israeli Missiles https://t.co/sCwFtwQeSQ via @ndtv

Key word "Outgunned"

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## syed_yusuf

fatman17 said:


> My story: Outgunned By Pak F-16s, IAF Plans To Re-Arm Its Sukhois With Israeli Missiles https://t.co/sCwFtwQeSQ via @ndtv
> 
> Key word "Outgunned"



some how they are not accepting that SD-10 also out gunned them comprehensively

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## Pakistani Fighter

syed_yusuf said:


> some how they are not accepting that SD-10 also out gunned them comprehensively


F16s were the main escorts

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## araz

syed_yusuf said:


> some how they are not accepting that SD-10 also out gunned them comprehensively


Let them not accept it in public but in private they are really rattled by the performance of PAF. This is about building a narrative so they dont cause mass hysteria.
For the Joe public it is acceptable that the Gora produce gave a hammering to their roosi mijjjiles and fighters but they 2ill not accept the cheeni maal which they project as third rate to beat their forces. Be it so the writing is very much on the wall.

A

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## mingle

fatman17 said:


> My story: Outgunned By Pak F-16s, IAF Plans To Re-Arm Its Sukhois With Israeli Missiles https://t.co/sCwFtwQeSQ via @ndtv
> 
> Key word "Outgunned"


Fatman theior Su 30 r over hyped and also shown big flaws I don't think Israeli Derby will help them why Isreal using huge numbers of AMRAAMs?

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## fatman17

mingle said:


> Fatman theior Su 30 r over hyped and also shown big flaws I don't think Israeli Derby will help them why Isreal using huge numbers of AMRAAMs?


Firm believer in training and tactics.

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## Ali_Baba

Could the PAF induct an Italian radar and weapons package for the JF17 that is equipped with the Meteor missile?

PAF had originally looked at French subsystems but this didnot proceed with France viewing greater opportunities. Given the state of relations between Italy and India and Pakistan, could Pakistan proceed with one of the Leonardo derivatives for the AESA radar and get the Meteor ?

Will really upset the India's...

Imagine the horror the IAF will face, in detecting a JF17, but not knowing if they are gonna get a SD10B, or a PL15 or a Meteor rammed up their arses !!!!! How do you counter those three possibilities????

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## Tamiyah

Ali_Baba said:


> Could the PAF induct an Italian radar and weapons package for the JF17 that is equipped with the Meteor missile?
> 
> PAF had originally looked at French subsystems but this didnot proceed with France viewing greater opportunities. Given the state of relations between Italy and India and Pakistan, could Pakistan proceed with one of the Leonardo derivatives for the AESA radar and get the Meteor ?
> 
> Will really upset the India's...
> 
> Imagine the horror the IAF will face, in detecting a JF17, but not knowing if they are gonna get a SD10B, or a PL15 or a Meteor rammed up their arses !!!!! How do you counter those three possibilities????


Dont you think it will be difficult to connect chinese missile with italian radar you know what i mean.


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## Ali_Baba

Tamiyah said:


> Dont you think it will be difficult to connect chinese missile with italian radar you know what i mean.



What I am saying is you wont need to.. ie IRIS-T and ASRAAM for WVR, Meteor for long range coupled with a western radar. A closed system of European weapon and a seperate ecosystem of weapons that are western in origin.

There is enough JF17s to integrate Chinese stuff onto, but this way you still have a foot in the door as far as European systems go and you increase the overall capability of the platform.

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## Armchair

Ali_Baba said:


> What I am saying is you wont need to.. ie IRIS-T and ASRAAM for WVR, Meteor for long range coupled with a western radar. A closed system of European weapon and a seperate ecosystem of weapons that are western in origin.
> 
> There is enough JF17s to integrate Chinese stuff onto, but this way you still have a foot in the door as far as European systems go and you increase the overall capability of the platform.



Brilliant idea actually. Leonardo has a Grif-E which is an AESA. Probably not GaN but should be good enough. Even if this is done for 18 odd birds, you could have 6 each in the three commands that would mix things up for the PAF and keep the IAF guessing.

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## Aryeih Leib

Sir will we see it before September?


BHarwana said:


> JF-17 block 3 has already gone into production.


----------



## BHarwana

Aryeih Leib said:


> Sir will we see it before September?


I don't know my friend.

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## Silicon0000

Aryeih Leib said:


> Sir will we see it before September?


Probably on 23 March 2020

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## Trailer23

*Wishing all my brothers a E!D Mubarak.*​
I have taken the liberty of making a Eid Wish edit on the PAF.

Now _I know_ a certain Senior Member ( @Imran Khan ) bhai is going to be very upset with me for adding the F-7, however, if you'll notice the Pilot - you may realize that its actually a F-18 Super Hornet pilot of the US Navy flying in a F-7.






*@Horus **@Dubious* *@araz* *@AZADPAKISTAN2009* *@Bilal Khan (Quwa)* *@Dazzler* *@fatman17* *@ghazi52* *@Hodor* *@Irfan Baloch* *@Imran Khan* *@Knuckles* *@Oscar* *@waz* *@Windjammer**
@aeromerix **@Ali_Baba* *@Falcon26* *@Haroon Baloch* *@HRK* *@khanasifm* *@Liquidmetal* *@Maxpane* *@crankthatskunk* *@Gillani88* *@graphican* *@GriffinsRule* *@Hakikat ve Hikmet* *@I S I** @Khafee @Khanivore **@khansaheeb** @loanranger **@member.exe* *@Microsoft* *@mingle* *@Mrc* *@Myth_buster_1* *@Rafi* *@Sabretooth* *@salman-1** @Shane **@Okasha** Zahid **@Ozee* *@Pakhtoon yum** @pakistanipower **@PAKISTANFOREVER* *@Path-Finder* *@PWFI** @Signalian **@Starlord* *@Super Falcon** @TF141 @The Accountant @TheTallGuy **@Thorough Pro** @tipu_ssw **@TOPGUN** @Tps43 @Shane **@_Sherdils_* *@Umair Nawaz* *@war&peace* *@War Thunder* *@Vortex* *@ziaulislam* *@Zulfiqar*

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## Imran Khan

Trailer23 said:


> *Wishing all my brothers a E!D Mubarak.*​
> I have taken the liberty of making a Eid Wish edit on the PAF.
> 
> Now _I know_ a certain Senior Member ( @Imran Khan ) bhai is going to be very upset with me for adding the F-7, however, if you'll notice the Pilot - you may realize that its actually a F-18 Super Hornet pilot of the US Navy flying in a F-7.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *@Horus **@Dubious* *@araz* *@AZADPAKISTAN2009* *@Bilal Khan (Quwa)* *@Dazzler* *@fatman17* *@ghazi52* *@Hodor* *@Irfan Baloch* *@Imran Khan* *@Knuckles* *@Oscar* *@waz* *@Windjammer*
> *@aeromerix **@Ali_Baba* *@Falcon26* *@Haroon Baloch* *@HRK* *@khanasifm* *@Liquidmetal* *@Maxpane* *@crankthatskunk* *@Gillani88* *@graphican* *@GriffinsRule* *@Hakikat ve Hikmet* *@I S I** @Khafee @Khanivore **@khansaheeb** @loanranger **@member.exe* *@Microsoft* *@mingle* *@Mrc* *@Myth_buster_1* *@Rafi* *@Sabretooth* *@salman-1** @Shane **@Okasha** Zahid **@Ozee* *@Pakhtoon yum** @pakistanipower **@PAKISTANFOREVER* *@Path-Finder* *@PWFI** @Signalian **@Starlord* *@Super Falcon** @TF141 @The Accountant @TheTallGuy **@Thorough Pro** @tipu_ssw **@TOPGUN** @Tps43 @Shane **@_Sherdils_* *@Umair Nawaz* *@war&peace* *@War Thunder* *@Vortex* *@ziaulislam* *@Zulfiqar*


F-7 ko ab videos main dikhana khud PAF ki insult hai it was design of 1950s today after 70 years we show it in video then people might think our airforce is junk .


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## GriffinsRule

Imran Khan said:


> F-7 ko ab videos main dikhana khud PAF ki insult hai it was design of 1950s today after 70 years we show it in video then people might think our airforce is junk .


USAF still flies F-5s/T-38s yaar. Dont be so harsh on PAF

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## Imran Khan

GriffinsRule said:


> USAF still flies F-5s/T-38s yaar. Dont be so harsh on PAF


USAF still flying C-47 too


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## Trailer23

Imran Khan said:


> F-7 ko ab videos main dikhana khud PAF ki insult hai.


Aray bhai, 'Eid Mubarak' kh-kay he ghusa uttar daitay.

Anyways, i'm really not a fan of the F-7 myself, but had my reasons to add it.

1. The most usual reason being short of footage as always.
2. Yaar, we have some of our boys still flying those machines. Uun ka bhe tou dil hai kay uun ka equipment (bhe) dikha dain.
3. It took me a whole day* masking/extracting a F-18 Super Hornet *Pilot* of the VFA-211 (Checkmates) from the US Navy - and putting him in our F-7. I just thought it was funny. *Timecode - 0:30
*
*Note: That's 30fps (frames per second).

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## CHI RULES

When the Mirage Horus shall be delivered to PAF?


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## fatman17

PAF Chief of the Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan greets personnel of the 'Tail Choppers' earlier today, during Eid festivities. PAF personnel sport some great patches and I particularly like the one on his right shoulder here. The Erieye one isn't bad either... https://t.co/s4UL8xxYe1


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## hassan1



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## HRK

hassan1 said:


> View attachment 563767
> View attachment 563768
> View attachment 563769


can some other member confirm that patch at the shoulder of Air Chief is showing JF-17 and H2/H4 glide weapon ....???

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## Psychic

HRK said:


> can some other member confirm that patch at the shoulder of Air Chief is showing JF-17 and H2/H4 glide weapon ....???


That is clearly a mirage.

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## PaklovesTurkiye

Psychic said:


> That is clearly a mirage.



Asalam Alikum, sir. Eid Mubarak 

Can you please direct me towards that comment of yours where posted funny pic of Indian analyst Abhijeet Mitra and saying wedding cancelled etc......That was hilarious comment and I forgot in which that thread you posted that?


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## Maxpane

hassan1 said:


> View attachment 563767
> View attachment 563768
> View attachment 563769


beautiful


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## Psychic

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> Asalam Alikum, sir. Eid Mubarak
> 
> Can you please direct me towards that comment of yours where posted funny pic of Indian analyst Abhijeet Mitra and saying wedding cancelled etc......That was hilarious comment and I forgot in which that thread you posted that?


Waalikum Salam, bro. Khair Mubarak
That page
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paf-...ison-alan-warnes.614187/page-57#post-11503265

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## PaklovesTurkiye

Psychic said:


> Waalikum Salam, bro. Khair Mubarak
> That page
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paf-...ison-alan-warnes.614187/page-57#post-11503265



Thanks a lot


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## fatman17

The latest news suggested that one PAF *JF-17* Block II shot down an IAF Mig-21 _Bison_ over Kashmir on February 27, 2019, marking its first kill in combat. 
_- Last Updated 5/15/19_

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## Shabi1

Came across this, PAF will likely keep them flying as long as possible like it has done with Mirages but if it looks to enhance fleet or replace it's C-130s, the KC-390 looks very promising for a debate. Not only does it match the C-130, its also cheaper than a new one and multirole as well. Getting air tanker certification these days.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embraer_KC-390

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## syed_yusuf

fatman17 said:


> The latest news suggested that one PAF *JF-17* Block II shot down an IAF Mig-21 _Bison_ over Kashmir on February 27, 2019, marking its first kill in combat.
> _- Last Updated 5/15/19_


we already know that

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## Pakistani Fighter

fatman17 said:


> The latest news suggested that one PAF *JF-17* Block II shot down an IAF Mig-21 _Bison_ over Kashmir on February 27, 2019, marking its first kill in combat.
> _- Last Updated 5/15/19_


NO.it was F16 of Wg Cdr Noman


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## Ultima Thule

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> NO.it was F16 of Wg Cdr Noman


And how do you know are you on F-16 cockpit that shot down MIG-21 according to you @Syed Hammad Ahmed

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## Shabi1

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> NO.it was F16 of Wg Cdr Noman


Lets just wait more to confirm, medals likely to be awarded on 14th Aug and we will get more on the story definitely by then. Yes he flies F-16s but according to a previous ACM interview PAF prefers to move senior F-16 pilots to JF-17s, so that current generation of F-16 pilots are younger and have more time before retirement. Reason being upgraded F-16s training is more tech specific. Adding to confusion both kill pilots sport CCS badges which flies F-16, JF-17s and F-7s. Also although we have photos and videos of them in F-16s but they are from 2010 and 2016.
So we can neither confirm or deny anything.

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## airomerix

Shabi1 said:


> Lets just wait more to confirm, medals likely to be awarded on 14th Aug and we will get more on the story definitely by then. Yes he flies F-16s but according to a previous ACM interview PAF prefers to move senior F-16 pilots to JF-17s, so that current generation of F-16 pilots are younger and have more time before retirement. Reason being upgraded F-16s training is more tech specific. Adding to confusion both kill pilots sport CCS badges which flies F-16, JF-17s and F-7s. Also although we have photos and videos of them in F-16s but they are from 2010 and 2016.
> So we can neither confirm or deny anything.



O bhai aisa kuch nahin hota. 

The youngest lot on JF-17s are currently Flying officers whilst the youngest pilots on F-16s are Flt Lt's. 

Also There is a separate formula when it comes to pilot rotations between squadrons operating different types. The one you mentioned is not true at all. 

Lastly, Mig was shot down by OC 29, Wg Cmdr Nauman. There is no doubt about it.

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## Ultima Thule

airomerix said:


> O bhai aisa kuch nahin hota.
> 
> The youngest lot on JF-17s are currently Flying officers whilst the youngest pilots on F-16s are Flt Lt's.
> 
> Also There is a separate formula when it comes to pilot rotations between squadrons operating different types. The one you mentioned is not true at all.
> 
> Lastly, Mig was shot down by OC 29, Wg Cmdr Nauman. There is no doubt about it.


And both F-16/JF-17 is quite similar jets, if someone fly F-16 then its definitely would fly JF-17, as for your information JF-17 is based/inspire on design of F-16 @airomerix


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## airomerix

pakistanipower said:


> And both F-16/JF-17 is quite similar jets, if someone fly F-16 then its definitely would fly JF-17, as for your information JF-17 is based/inspire on design of F-16 @airomerix



This made no sense. I dont know what are you trying to prove. Please rework your thoughts and channel them properly. Chief of Air Staff.

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## Ultima Thule

airomerix said:


> This made no sense. I dont know what are you trying to prove. Please rework your thoughts and channel them properly. Chief of Air Staff.


give me a reasons that why you think that, its massive possibility, i can show you lots of example that lots of USAF pilots that are flying F-15 also flew F-16 or their lower tier jets @airomerix


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## airomerix

pakistanipower said:


> give me a reasons that why you think that, its massive possibility, i can show you lots of example that lots of USAF pilots that are flying F-15 also flew F-16 or their lower tier jets @airomerix



Again i never claimed what you're trying to prove otherwise.


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## Ultima Thule

airomerix said:


> Again i never claimed what you're trying to prove otherwise.


its a possibilty that F-16 pilots able to fly JF-17 on 27 FEB, there were a news that lots former F-16 Pilots were going to fly/joining JF-17 squadrons @airomerix


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## ghazi52

c. 1940s: Two Hawker Hurricane Mk. IIc fighters are being worked on by the ground crew outside the Miranshah fort


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## Imran Khan

Shabi1 said:


> Came across this, PAF will likely keep them flying as long as possible like it has done with Mirages but if it looks to enhance fleet or replace it's C-130s, the KC-390 looks very promising for a debate. Not only does it match the C-130, its also cheaper than a new one and multirole as well. Getting air tanker certification these days.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embraer_KC-390


you idea is perfect sir i really liked this baby and its nice bird 

c130 - 33tons 92troops speed 593km range 3800 km
kc-390 26tons 80 troops speed 870km range 2813km 


there are differences and planners will see them if they plan


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## fatman17

http://kaiser-aeronaut.blogspot.com/2019/06/pulwama-from-bluster-to-whimper.html?m=1

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## Maxpane

so credit goes to f 16

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## Ultima Thule

Maxpane said:


> so credit goes to f 16


no one sure, its just a rumors by some members here, maybe it JF-17 or ,maybe F-16, nothing is confirmed @Maxpane


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## fatman17

Maxpane said:


> so credit goes to f 16


AC Kaisers information is usually accurate!


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## fatman17

syed_yusuf said:


> we already know that


[emoji12]


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## Armchair

PAF needs to have a clear picture going forward for the next 2 years. IAF will be upgrading and looking for revenge. Here are a few threats they have the plan for:
1. Rafale with Meteor
2. EW assets
3. S-400
4. Possibly F-21 or even F-35. PAF will have a serious disadvantage if IAF gets the F-35. 
5. The PAF should also plan for (not necessarily engage in, but have the capability for) offensive air campaigns in Afghanistan and even Iran. Some MALE UAVs would be useful here (are the Wing Loong IIs coming??)

In dealing with these challenges, PAF should:
1. Buy as many Mirage III/Vs it can get its hands on
2. Invest in a ramjet powered BVRAAM.
3. Look to make a deal with the US for more F-16s and assorted goodies
4. Failing 3 above, look for an alternative or speed up Project Azm. Rapid prototyping is a reality in project management and there is no reason one cannot do this particularly in the presence of 3D technology and advanced CAD and fluid dynamics software. 
5. Invest in a Harpy like drone capability
6. Build a basic LR-SAM that can act as an added hassle for intruding IAF aircraft. There is already a (secret) HQ-9 presence but this is guarding Kahuta. PAF needs the local scientific team to turn the Nasr base design into an LR-SAM. Something to scare away intruding enemy IAF fighters, even if they can't shoot down a maneuvering target, they can cause the enemy to drop their ordnance. 
7. PAF needs to invest in two types of serious UCAVs: 1 for strike and the other for air defence. Something that can play a cameo role in the PAF air defence scheme. Even if it is a simple BVR shooter with data-links to the external sensor network.

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## ghazi52

*The Dragon Fly “Mitty Masud”*

(This historic photo is from the collection of historian Nasim Yousaf. Mr. Yousaf received this photo from a former Air Chief Marshal of the Pakistan Air Force. In this picture, legendary fighter pilot Wing Commander (later Air Commodore) M. Zafar Masud is standing in front of his Sabre jet with helmet (at the bottom of the photo). The pilots shown are lined up on Feb 02, 1958, prior to flying the sixteen Sabres loop formation, which set a world record.)

One of the PAF’s most courageous leaders Air Commodore Mohammad Zafar Masud HJ, SBt,1923 – October 7, 2003; widely knew as Mitty Masud, was a high-ranking air force strategist and air commander of the Eastern Air Command during the East Pakistan war, prior to 1971.

Masud was born in Gujranwala, British Punjab State in 1923. Having joined the Royal Air Force in 1943, Masud was sent to Royal Air Force College Cranwell, Great Britain where he did his BSc in Strategic studies and also received a diploma in fighter pilot training. He did a staff college course in United Kingdom from which Masud returned with the best foreign student award. Upon his return to British Indian Empire, Mitty Masud opted the Pakistani citizenship as the Jinnah led the creation of Pakistan. Mitty was by 1947 already an air force pilot and became the youngest pioneer of the newly born Pakistan Air Force.

In 1947, Flight-Lieutenant (Captain) Mitty was deployed in Dhamial Army Air Base where he was put in charge air campaigns during the 1947 Kashmir War. As the war intensified, Mitty was sent to Skardu National Airport where took active participation in air missions under the command of Air-Commodore (Brigadier-General) Ahmad Mukhtar Dogar. In 1948, After the war, Mitty joined the Pakistan Air Force Academy as a research associate and gained MSc in Counter-insurgency in 1952. In 1952, he was promoted to Squadron Leader (Major) rank, and played an instrumental figurative role in the development and establishment in PAF's prestigious combat flying institution Combat Commanders School (CCS), PAF's Top Gun. In 1958, Commander-in-Chief Air-Marshal Asghar Khan chose (then) Wing-Commander (Lieutenant-Colonel) Mitty Masud to organise, train, and lead an aerobatics team of 16 F-86 Sabre jets that set a world record, validating the PAF's place among the well- regarded air arms of the world. Masud organised and sat up the first aerobatics unit as he served its first Commanding officer. In 1972, the Pakistan Air Force officially gave commissioned to Pakistan Air Force Sherdils in an honour of Mitty Masud, who first presented the squadrons its flying colours.

In 1964, Mitty was promoted to Group-Captain (Colonel) in the Air Force, and was made Commanding officer of the Sargodha Air Force Base. Mitty served under the Command of Air-Vice Marshal (Major-General) Eric Gordan Hall during the 1965 India-Pakistan war. As commanding officer of the Sargodha Air Force Base, Mitty's leadership and devotion to duty led to a successful aerial missions against the Indian Air Force (IAF). On the day and night of 7 September 1965, the IAF made five successive attacks on Pakistan Air Force facilities, and PAF's installations with Canberra bombers, Hunter and Mystere fighter bombers. Under the command of Mitty Masud, the PAF was retaliated, though the IAF heavily damaged the Air Force Base, PAF responded back with series of counter missions. After the war, Group Captain Mohammad Zafar Masud was honoured and awarded Hilal-i-Jurat in a colourful public ceremony by President Ayub Khan, for his active participation during the conflict.

Air Commodore Masud was very happily married to his devoted wife, Elizabeth, for 45 years and their son Salaar works as a software analyst in Europe. Elizabeth Masud, a German lady, speaks Urdu fluently and has, despite her own frail health, lovingly remained by her husband's side, including his long and difficult battle with Parkinson's disease. Masud died in Karachi on 7 October 2003, due to a Cardiac arrest. Mitty received a Guard of honour from the Pakistan Air Force, and was honorarily buried in Karachi Military Graveyard, next to his wife.









The Dragon Fly “Mitty Masud”
Sixth from left Air Commodore M. Zafar Masud.







Mitti Masud's true strength of character & courage of conviction. In 1971, he was head of PAF in E Pak & refused to participate in military action because he felt it unjustified. He along with Admiral Ahsan & Gen Yaqub resigned. Later he flew in flying club as an instructor for pittance. History will judge his greatness for this principled stand

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## GriffinsRule

Armchair said:


> PAF needs to have a clear picture going forward for the next 2 years. IAF will be upgrading and looking for revenge. Here are a few threats they have the plan for:
> 1. Rafale with Meteor
> 2. EW assets
> 3. S-400
> 4. Possibly F-21 or even F-35. PAF will have a serious disadvantage if IAF gets the F-35.
> 5. The PAF should also plan for (not necessarily engage in, but have the capability for) offensive air campaigns in Afghanistan and even Iran. Some MALE UAVs would be useful here (are the Wing Loong IIs coming??)
> 
> In dealing with these challenges, PAF should:
> 1. Buy as many Mirage III/Vs it can get its hands on
> 2. Invest in a ramjet powered BVRAAM.
> 3. Look to make a deal with the US for more F-16s and assorted goodies
> 4. Failing 3 above, look for an alternative or speed up Project Azm. Rapid prototyping is a reality in project management and there is no reason one cannot do this particularly in the presence of 3D technology and advanced CAD and fluid dynamics software.
> 5. Invest in a Harpy like drone capability
> 6. Build a basic LR-SAM that can act as an added hassle for intruding IAF aircraft. There is already a (secret) HQ-9 presence but this is guarding Kahuta. PAF needs the local scientific team to turn the Nasr base design into an LR-SAM. Something to scare away intruding enemy IAF fighters, even if they can't shoot down a maneuvering target, they can cause the enemy to drop their ordnance.
> 7. PAF needs to invest in two types of serious UCAVs: 1 for strike and the other for air defence. Something that can play a cameo role in the PAF air defence scheme. Even if it is a simple BVR shooter with data-links to the external sensor network.



I think your projections are too short term and not realistic in my opinion.
*1. Rafale with Meteor* (with deliveries commence this year but wont end until 2024-2025. Two years is not enough time for IAF to integrate the jet they are just getting in service fully or to have their doctrine updated to fully take advantage of the new technologies it offers.)
*2. EW assets* (will take longer than two years as they are just now going to order more homegrown EW assets and even purchasing from abroad takes time, with testing, selection, and integration)
*3. S-400* (Not as big a threat as we assume if to be, especially if their situation awareness if degraded like it happened on Feb 27th. They will not want to shoot their own Su-30s and Mirages with their newly inducted 'super SAM') Also PAF is not going to be sitting on its rear end and I am sure has already been working on contingency plans to counter this threat.
*4. Possibly F-21 or even F-35.* PAF will have a serious disadvantage if IAF gets the F-35. (Not going to be getting F-16/21 due to optics and not getting F-35s if the situation in Turkey is anything to go by. More Rafales and Tejas are their only options.)
5. *The PAF should also plan for (not necessarily engage in, but have the capability for) offensive air campaigns in Afghanistan and even Iran. Some MALE UAVs would be useful here (are the Wing Loong IIs coming??) *PAF should avoid any and all offensive missions in Iran as they are a sovereign nation and we cannot and should not try to think we have any right to attack any targets inside their territory. This is not against international laws and norms, but also a very poor way of conducting oneself in foreign relations and especially in case of Pakistan where we already have two hot borders to contend with. Much more fruitful to engage with them on a diplomatic level and increase cooperation on a military level with joint task forces to fight BLA and other Indian-sponsored terrorists. This is exactly what Pakistan seems to be heading towards. 
As for Afghanistan, we should also treat them as a sovereign country, and any attacks in their territory would be limited to the immediate border areas if and when our military or civilian infrastructure on the border comes under attack from Taliban or ISIS etc. And these don't need to be public information anyways.


As for the other points, I agree with you on all but two. We can not look for an alternative to AZM. Its the only way forward, come hell or high water. It might be delayed due to various 
Also Pakistan has no real expertise in developing any UCAVs. One we have are Chinese and will remain so for the foreseable future. Better to buy them cheaply off the shelf and focus the energy and resources on project AZM which is the priority, make or break kind of a project for the future viability for the PAF. In fact, any other ancillary project such as weapons etc should be secondary to that. Once we have the platform, we can develop indigenous weapons and whatnot to go with it.
Over extending our limited resources (dollars and brains) across a dozen different projects will only slow everything down and make them all more prone to failure. Best to skip weapons/ldps, engines, and radars (AESA) and foucs on getting capability for the airframe first. That in itself is a huge challenge as we will need to setup new manufacturing technologies that are non-existent in Pakistan right now.

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## Pakhtoon yum

Armchair said:


> PAF needs to have a clear picture going forward for the next 2 years. IAF will be upgrading and looking for revenge. Here are a few threats they have the plan for:
> 1. Rafale with Meteor
> 2. EW assets
> 3. S-400
> 4. Possibly F-21 or even F-35. PAF will have a serious disadvantage if IAF gets the F-35.
> 5. The PAF should also plan for (not necessarily engage in, but have the capability for) offensive air campaigns in Afghanistan and even Iran. Some MALE UAVs would be useful here (are the Wing Loong IIs coming??)
> 
> In dealing with these challenges, PAF should:
> 1. Buy as many Mirage III/Vs it can get its hands on
> 2. Invest in a ramjet powered BVRAAM.
> 3. Look to make a deal with the US for more F-16s and assorted goodies
> 4. Failing 3 above, look for an alternative or speed up Project Azm. Rapid prototyping is a reality in project management and there is no reason one cannot do this particularly in the presence of 3D technology and advanced CAD and fluid dynamics software.
> 5. Invest in a Harpy like drone capability
> 6. Build a basic LR-SAM that can act as an added hassle for intruding IAF aircraft. There is already a (secret) HQ-9 presence but this is guarding Kahuta. PAF needs the local scientific team to turn the Nasr base design into an LR-SAM. Something to scare away intruding enemy IAF fighters, even if they can't shoot down a maneuvering target, they can cause the enemy to drop their ordnance.
> 7. PAF needs to invest in two types of serious UCAVs: 1 for strike and the other for air defence. Something that can play a cameo role in the PAF air defence scheme. Even if it is a simple BVR shooter with data-links to the external sensor network.


Someone make him the cheif of PAF, cause they ones right now are sleeping



GriffinsRule said:


> I think your projections are too short term and not realistic in my opinion.
> *1. Rafale with Meteor* (with deliveries commence this year but wont end until 2024-2025. Two years is not enough time for IAF to integrate the jet they are just getting in service fully or to have their doctrine updated to fully take advantage of the new technologies it offers.)
> *2. EW assets* (will take longer than two years as they are just now going to order more homegrown EW assets and even purchasing from abroad takes time, with testing, selection, and integration)
> *3. S-400* (Not as big a threat as we assume if to be, especially if their situation awareness if degraded like it happened on Feb 27th. They will not want to shoot their own Su-30s and Mirages with their newly inducted 'super SAM') Also PAF is not going to be sitting on its rear end and I am sure has already been working on contingency plans to counter this threat.
> *4. Possibly F-21 or even F-35.* PAF will have a serious disadvantage if IAF gets the F-35. (Not going to be getting F-16/21 due to optics and not getting F-35s if the situation in Turkey is anything to go by. More Rafales and Tejas are their only options.)
> 5. *The PAF should also plan for (not necessarily engage in, but have the capability for) offensive air campaigns in Afghanistan and even Iran. Some MALE UAVs would be useful here (are the Wing Loong IIs coming??) *PAF should avoid any and all offensive missions in Iran as they are a sovereign nation and we cannot and should not try to think we have any right to attack any targets inside their territory. This is not against international laws and norms, but also a very poor way of conducting oneself in foreign relations and especially in case of Pakistan where we already have two hot borders to contend with. Much more fruitful to engage with them on a diplomatic level and increase cooperation on a military level with joint task forces to fight BLA and other Indian-sponsored terrorists. This is exactly what Pakistan seems to be heading towards.
> As for Afghanistan, we should also treat them as a sovereign country, and any attacks in their territory would be limited to the immediate border areas if and when our military or civilian infrastructure on the border comes under attack from Taliban or ISIS etc. And these don't need to be public information anyways.
> 
> 
> As for the other points, I agree with you on all but two. We can not look for an alternative to AZM. Its the only way forward, come hell or high water. It might be delayed due to various
> Also Pakistan has no real expertise in developing any UCAVs. One we have are Chinese and will remain so for the foreseable future. Better to buy them cheaply off the shelf and focus the energy and resources on project AZM which is the priority, make or break kind of a project for the future viability for the PAF. In fact, any other ancillary project such as weapons etc should be secondary to that. Once we have the platform, we can develop indigenous weapons and whatnot to go with it.
> Over extending our limited resources (dollars and brains) across a dozen different projects will only slow everything down and make them all more prone to failure. Best to skip weapons/ldps, engines, and radars (AESA) and foucs on getting capability for the airframe first. That in itself is a huge challenge as we will need to setup new manufacturing technologies that are non-existent in Pakistan right now.


When they cross the line anything is fair, even razing of Tehran. Mark my words, Iran will cross the line again.

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## Armchair

GriffinsRule said:


> I think your projections are too short term and not realistic in my opinion.
> *1. Rafale with Meteor* (with deliveries commence this year but wont end until 2024-2025. Two years is not enough time for IAF to integrate the jet they are just getting in service fully or to have their doctrine updated to fully take advantage of the new technologies it offers.)
> *2. EW assets* (will take longer than two years as they are just now going to order more homegrown EW assets and even purchasing from abroad takes time, with testing, selection, and integration)
> *3. S-400* (Not as big a threat as we assume if to be, especially if their situation awareness if degraded like it happened on Feb 27th. They will not want to shoot their own Su-30s and Mirages with their newly inducted 'super SAM') Also PAF is not going to be sitting on its rear end and I am sure has already been working on contingency plans to counter this threat.
> *4. Possibly F-21 or even F-35.* PAF will have a serious disadvantage if IAF gets the F-35. (Not going to be getting F-16/21 due to optics and not getting F-35s if the situation in Turkey is anything to go by. More Rafales and Tejas are their only options.)
> 5. *The PAF should also plan for (not necessarily engage in, but have the capability for) offensive air campaigns in Afghanistan and even Iran. Some MALE UAVs would be useful here (are the Wing Loong IIs coming??) *PAF should avoid any and all offensive missions in Iran as they are a sovereign nation and we cannot and should not try to think we have any right to attack any targets inside their territory. This is not against international laws and norms, but also a very poor way of conducting oneself in foreign relations and especially in case of Pakistan where we already have two hot borders to contend with. Much more fruitful to engage with them on a diplomatic level and increase cooperation on a military level with joint task forces to fight BLA and other Indian-sponsored terrorists. This is exactly what Pakistan seems to be heading towards.
> As for Afghanistan, we should also treat them as a sovereign country, and any attacks in their territory would be limited to the immediate border areas if and when our military or civilian infrastructure on the border comes under attack from Taliban or ISIS etc. And these don't need to be public information anyways.
> 
> 
> As for the other points, I agree with you on all but two. We can not look for an alternative to AZM. Its the only way forward, come hell or high water. It might be delayed due to various
> Also Pakistan has no real expertise in developing any UCAVs. One we have are Chinese and will remain so for the foreseable future. Better to buy them cheaply off the shelf and focus the energy and resources on project AZM which is the priority, make or break kind of a project for the future viability for the PAF. In fact, any other ancillary project such as weapons etc should be secondary to that. Once we have the platform, we can develop indigenous weapons and whatnot to go with it.
> Over extending our limited resources (dollars and brains) across a dozen different projects will only slow everything down and make them all more prone to failure. Best to skip weapons/ldps, engines, and radars (AESA) and foucs on getting capability for the airframe first. That in itself is a huge challenge as we will need to setup new manufacturing technologies that are non-existent in Pakistan right now.



Hi GriffinsRule, thanks for a thoughtful and well constructed response. Its good to have a nice discussion on PDF after so long. Please allow me to reply back in points. 

1. Rafale with Meteor is likely to be a serious threat within 2 years. This is because IAF already has officers training on the Rafale and will be jumping onto the Rafales fully trained. 
2. I admit I don't know enough about electronic warfare to claim they can be integrated within 2 years. Perhaps you know better here. I do know that jamming pods are pretty much plug and play. 
3. For S-400, I hope that PAF has prepared something, at the bare minimum a Pakistani version of the Harpy. An own local LR-SAM would have really been beneficial even if they caused the IAF to break formation and let go of ordnance. 
4. F-35 can be a reality for India. I think it is possible they would get it. If they do, they would take as little as 6 months to get a squadron and 2 years they should have an operational squadron. If this doesn't happen, well and good, but we must prepare contingency plans if they do. 
5. I did not say we will attack Iran. But if the US does destroy Iran and create a failed state, it *could be *in our best interest to have a limited offensive capability to take out targets of interest. All I am saying is to keep a few squadrons of the Wing Loong 2 or something similar for COIN in the borderlands.
6. I think a Ramjet BVR is a serious need to counter the Rafales (our timeline of that threat differs so that may be the reason we differ on this). I would say a more pressing need than Azm. 

Regarding UCAVs, it is not a matter of expertise as much as it is a matter of vision. We should be willing to imagine and dare to break new ground. For the kind of UCAVs internally proposed in the PAF (strike) and the kind of UCAVs I've proposed (a2a) simple yet effective solutions could be created with the resources available. 

If we could imagine an Indian strike package having to worry about LR-SAMs breaking them up, and UCAVs with BVR missiles meeting them in coordination with PAF fighters, jamming, Long Range BVRs. All of these could make PAF's defenses even more formidable as a whole.

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## Blueskiez 2001

Armchair said:


> Hi GriffinsRule, thanks for a thoughtful and well constructed response. Its good to have a nice discussion on PDF after so long. Please allow me to reply back in points.
> 
> 
> Regarding UCAVs, it is not a matter of expertise as much as it is a matter of vision. We should be willing to imagine and dare to break new ground. For the kind of UCAVs internally proposed in the PAF (strike) and the kind of UCAVs I've proposed (a2a) simple yet effective solutions could be created with the resources available.
> 
> If we could imagine an Indian strike package having to worry about LR-SAMs breaking them up, and UCAVs with BVR missiles meeting them in coordination with PAF fighters, jamming, Long Range BVRs. All of these could make PAF's defenses even more formidable as a whole.



This is a very power full and visionary way to go. Imagine several UCAV armed with PL-15 howering for 20 hours each with a ground controller with advanced radar station telling where to fire the missile when needed.

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## Armchair

Blueskiez 2001 said:


> This is a very power full and visionary way to go. Imagine several UCAV armed with PL-15 howering for 20 hours each with a ground controller with advanced radar station telling where to fire the missile when needed.



exactly what I am thinking. would really be a force multiplier.


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## fatman17

*FC-1/JF-17 Fierce Dragon/Thunder*




First revealed in 1995 as the successor of the cancelled Sino-US Super-7 project, *FC-1* (Fighter China-1, max TO weight 12,700kg, max speed M 1.8, service ceiling 16,920m, max external load 3,600kg, ferry range 3,480km, combat radius 1,352km, max g load +8.5) is being developed by CAC/611 Institute (with some technical assistance from Russian Mikoyan OKB) as a "medium tech", light weight fighter/ground attack aircraft carrying a relatively cheap price tag (~$20m). As a fighter designed for export, its main customer is expected to be Pakistan who also shares 50% of the total cost (around $150m). It may also compete with second-hand F-16s to seize the market created by the retirement of Mig-21s, Mirage III and F-5s. Currently powered by a Russian RD-93 turbofan (upgraded RD-33, rated 8,795kg with A/B), it could also be powered by a locally produced WS-13 _Taishan_ once the engine is ready. The A-6 style "V" shaped air-intakes are believed to provide smooth air flow to the engine at high AoA. The fire control radar is thought to be a Chinese KLJ-7V2 X-band multi-functional PD radar (track 10 and engage 2 simultaneously, look-up range 110km for RCS=3m2). A Chinese AESA radar might be installed in later batches. Other electronics include an NVG compatible glass cockpit (EFIS) with three 8"x6" color MFDs, HOTAS, AIFF, 1553B databus and INS/GPS. Weapon load includes both short (PL-5EII/PL-9C/AIM-9M) and medium-range AAMs (SD-10A). LGBs (LT-2/LT-3/GBU-12), GPS/INS guided bombs (LS-6 or MK8x-REK), 500kg dispensors (GB6/TL500), ASMs (C705KD), anti-radiation missiles (Brazilian MAR-1 or Chinese LD-10/CM102) and IRST/laser designation pod (WMD-7 or ASELPOD) can also be carried for ground attack missions. Up to 2 C-802AK AShMs can be carried for anti-ship missions. For high value fixed targets, up to 2 CM-400AKG standoff supersonic ASMs can be carried. For self-protection purpose a KG300G or KG600 ECM pod can be carried underneath centerline pylon. The development schedule of *FC-1* was repeatedly delayed caused by various problems, such as lack of funding, the reluctance of western countries to supply advanced avionics, as well as the revised specifications set by PAF to counter the threat from India's LCAs. These specifications included a true BVR attack capability with active radar guided medium-range AAMs (SD-10A). However, *FC-1*'s prospect in the domestic market had diminished, as PLAAF had committed to the more advanced *J-10* as its new generation fighter along with *J-11* and was reluctant to acquire any *FC-1*s due to its less advanced design and a Russian engine. After lengthy negotiations, Pakistani government finally signed the contract with CATIC and CAC/611 in 1999 and gave the "go ahead" order to the much delayed project. The development was further accelerated after PAF recommitted the project and confirmed *FC-1*'s technical specifications in detail in February 2001. A full-scale mock-up was quickly constructed. A total of 6 prototypes (01-06) were built at CAC. The 01 prototype rolled down the assembly line on May 31, 2003 with two small wing fences. Its maiden flight took place on August 25, 2003. The 03 prototype first flew on April 9, 2004 without the two small wing fences. The 04 prototype was expected to fly by the end of 2005 with full suite of avionics but this was delayed until April 2006 due to several structural modifications. They include new diverterless supersonic inlets (DSI/Bump) similar to those of American F-35 to reduce weight and achieve better performance. A large rectangular-shaped fairing is installed on top of the vertical tail which may house ECM equipment. Its flight control includes a Type 634 quadruplex digital FBW in pitch axis and a duplex analog FBW in roll axis. A UV band MAWS has been installed at the root of the vertical tail to provide rear hemisphere coverage. Two enlarged F/A-18 style LERX are thought to offer higher AOA as well. The first flight of 04 prototype took place on April 28, 2006, and 06 prototype on September 10, 2006. The first two pre-production *JF-17*s (PAF designation Joint Fighter-17 Block I, 00 batch/07-101 & 102) were delivered to Pakistan on March 2, 2007, with the nose-tip pitot tube removed. The 01 batch of 6 *JF-17*s (08-103 -- 08-108) were delivered between March and April 2008. The contract for PAF to acquire another 42 *JF-17*s assembled by PAC was singed on March 7, 2009. The first two (09-109 & 110) were built by CAC. The first *JF-17* (09-111) in the batch of 4 assembled by PAC rolled out on November 23, 2009. The production of the 50 Block I concluded by the end of 2013 with another 50 Block II following in 2014. Besides Pakistan, several Asian, African and South America countries also expressed interest in *FC-1/JF-17*, including Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Azerbaijan, Myanmar, Argentina, Nigeria, Malaysia and Iran. *FC-1* passed design appraisal in December 2009. The first taxiing test of *FC-1* powered by an indigenous WS-13 took place on March 18, 2010, but the results were unsatisfactory. A further upgraded variant (*JF-17* Block II) featuring a detachable IFR probe on the starboard side of the cockpit, similar to that of *J-10*, improved avionics (including secure datalink with *ZDK-03*) and enhanced precision-guided weapon capability has been developed. The aircraft may also fly ESM/ECM missions with a new EW pod. An LED probe light was installed on top of the right engine intake behind the IFR probe to illuminate both the probe and the drogue from the tanker during night operations. The aircraft is to be supported by PAF Il-78MP tanker. The IFR test was believed to have started in 2017. All Block IIs starting from 16-229 and on will have the IFR probe and probe light installed. The Block II variant is expected to be followed by the much improved Block III, which might feature a more powerful engine (WS-13E or RD-33K? 9,000kg class), a new AESA radar developed by NETRI/14th Institute (KLJ-7A, range 170km, track 15, engage 4) or by the 607 Institute (LKF601E, air cooled), IRST, HMD, full authority digital FBW and new types of weapons including PL-10E IIR guided AAM. First flight is expected in 2019. It was reported in November 2016 that 611 Institute was studying a semi-stealth concept of *FC-1* (JF-17 Block IV?) to further extend its export potential. The aircraft might have certain stealth features such as a redesigned stealth nose with a one-piece F-22 style canopy. A tandem-seat trainer version (*JF-17B*) has been under development since 2013 (see below). The assembling of the first three *JF-17* Block IIs (S/N 15-2xx) started at PAC in mid-2014. First flight of 15-201 took place on February 9, 2015. A total of 50 were built by the end of 2017, 12 more by 2019. It is expected that all the Block I/II *JF-17*s will be upgraded with the KLJ-7A AESA radar. It was reported in June 2015 that *JF-17* secured its first export contract from an Asian customer which turned out to be Myanmar. The $560m contract could involve an initial batch of 16 aircraft. A recent image (July 2016) suggested that the 04 prototype has been wearing a new blue color scheme based upon customer's requirements. The first *JF-17M* (Block II standard) had its maiden flight at CAC on June 13, 2017, featuring a blue/gray camouflage and a color LED landing light on the front landing gear similar to that onboard *JF-17B*. However the aircraft appears to lack the IFR capability. Recent news (September 2016) indicated that Nigerian AF has decided to acquire *JF-17*. The first batch of 3 is expected to be delivered in 2019. A recent news (December 2017) indicated that *JF-17* Block III entered the preliminary design stage in October 2017. A recent image (October 2018) indicated that the first batch of 6 *JF-17M*s (S/N 1701-1706) were delivered to Myanmar Air Force, which has become the second customer of the aircraft. The latest news suggested that one PAF *JF-17* Block II shot down an IAF Mig-21 _Bison_ over Kashmir on February 27, 2019, marking its first kill in combat. 
_- Last Updated 6/9/19_

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## Shahzaz ud din

*Guess these Pakistani Aviators*
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## mingle

Shahzaz ud din said:


> *Guess these Pakistani Aviators*
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Rafiqi, Middlecoat, Noor khan, Aloudin Ahmed Butch, last one Mitty masood


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## denel

Shahzaz ud din said:


> *Guess these Pakistani Aviators*
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any one have old photo of Rab Nawaz?


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## ghazi52

Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan, Chief of Air Staff at Pakistan Navy War College, Lahore.

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## ghazi52

NO. 5 SQUADRON - PAF - 1971











The legends of PAF and the pic of legendary M.M Alam's team of instructors on Mirage Air craft who proceeded to France ... For Mirage-3 conversion in 1967 








Shahzaz ud din said:


> *Guess these Pakistani Aviators*
> *
> 
> 
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Falcons of the PAF, Squadron Leader Sarfaraz Ahmed Rafiqui 

Standing L to R, C/T Aslam, Baseer,Rashid Bhatti,Saleem(Mullan)29th.GD(P),(Late)Zahoor,Qasid.Sitting L to R, Ali Kazim,28th.GD.Flt. Lt.Afzal Chaudhry,Sqn.Leader Rafique,Flt. Lt. Saleem Iqbal(Late),26th GD. Moin 27th GD

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## fatman17

*Warplanes: JF17 Evolves For Pakistan*
June 13, 2019: The first Pakistani JF17 Block 1 aircraft has completed a periodic overhaul, in China, during March 2019. Pakistan had hoped to do these overhauls in Pakistan but Pakistani maintainers are still in China learning how to handle this sort of thing. Pakistanis have been less successful in learning how to manufacture many of the JF17 components but, because of years of maintaining the similar American F-16, Pakistan has expanded its ability to maintain and overhaul these modern jet fighters.

The fifty Block 1 JF17 aircraft were built in China starting in 2006 and most of the first ones were assembled there by 2013, while the transfer of assembly capability to Pakistan was carried out. The Block 1 entered service in 2007 but it was a year before the first squadron (12 aircraft) could enter service. China could have built and put into service fifty JF17s in less than a year but it took longer because the goal was to train Pakistani personnel to do the assembly of Chinese components. A parallel effort transferred tech and expertise to Pakistani firms so they could manufacture more and more of the airframe, which is mostly metal but also wiring and electric motors. The Block 1s were, by Chinese standards, simple aircraft and cost about $15 million to build.

Fifty Block 2 aircraft, with inflight refueling, improved electronics and digital data link, began production in 2013 and twelve more were ordered and completed by 2017. The Block 2s cost about $25 million each.

Block 3 will have an improved, Chinese-designed engine and much improved flight performance. Block 3 was supposed to begin production in 2016 but that has been delayed until 2019. The Chinese designed engine may not be available for the first Block 3s. China is still developing its ability to build locally designed high-performance military jet engines. The fifty Block 3s are a major upgrade with AESA radar and a passive (does not broadcast signals) IRST (infrared search and track) system that detects aircraft via the heat they emit. There will be a new “glass cockpit” with more effective flight controls (including a helmet mounted sight) and a two-seater option. The Block 3s cost about $35 million each.

In May 2017 the JF-17B, a two-seat version made its first flight. The B version is built to be either an advanced trainer, or when equipped with a few million dollars’ worth of additional sensors and upgraded fire control electronics, an advanced fighter-bomber. The B version is meant to be an option with the Block 3, which will have sufficiently improved electronics to operate as an advanced fighter-bomber like the F-15E or similar aircraft built by Russia and China. The Block 3 and B versions make the JF17 a better export aircraft and that is keeping Chinese sales teams busy discussing purchases by a number of interested nations like Algeria, Azerbaijan, Argentina, Qatar, Egypt, Iran, Lebanon, Malaysia, Morocco, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Sri Lanka, Zimbabwe and Uruguay. China is offering all three block versions because some potential buyers just want a cheap jet fighter.

When the first JF-17 fighter arrived in Pakistan by 2007, that marked the completion of over twenty years of development for what was first called the Super 7 fighter. The JF-17 was developed by China in cooperation with Pakistan, which originally only wanted to buy 150 of them. All this came about because Pakistan could not get modern fighters from anyone else, and turned to China. At the time, China had nothing comparable to the early model F-16s Pakistan already had. As of early 2019, Pakistan owns at least a hundred JF17s. These are Block 1 and 2 plus some pre-production aircraft. Because of ongoing overhauls of Block 1 aircraft Pakistan had about 85 JF17s available for service during early 2019. Pakistan expects to handle overhauls and major repairs itself by 2020.

Because the JF-17 was a joint effort with China, the first JF-17s were manufactured and assembled in China. This began to change with Block 2. Now Chinese made components (the engine, electronics and nearly half the airframe components) are shipped to Pakistan where Pakistanis assemble them in a Pakistani owned and operated plant. The goal was always to shift production to Pakistan but that has not been achieved yet and probably never will be. That’s because the engine (Russian RD-93 license-built in China) is something Pakistan has no plans for trying to build, or even assemble, locally. Same situation with most of the electronics. Nevertheless, the final assembly has been established in Pakistan and that is sufficient for Pakistan to claim the aircraft is “built in Pakistan”.

The Chinese designed JF-17 (also known as FC-1) is also manufactured in China, which is trying to export it as an inexpensive alternative to American and Russian fighters. So far, there have been few takers. Myanmar (Burma) bought 16 and has received six so far. Nigeria also bought three in 2016 with a possible sales of twenty or more. Both of these export sales were more diplomacy than just selling jet fighters. The JF-17s built in Pakistan are mainly composed of Chinese parts, and the Chinese Air Force has not shown any interest in obtaining the aircraft for its own use. Officially, the Chinese Air Force is still “evaluating” the JF-17, but unofficially, Chinese air force commanders consider the JF-17 inferior to other fighters they are building. The Chinese developer and manufacturer consider the JF17 a financial success but mainly as an export item and mainly to Pakistan, which may ultimately buy more than 300. That plus export sales add up to a significant amount of business.

The low-end JF-17 is little more than a day time interceptor. The most capable F-16 model in service is the F-16I, used exclusively by Israel. It's basically a modified version of the F-16C/D Block 50/52 optimized to deliver smart bombs anywhere, at any time, in any weather and despite dense air defenses. The F-16I costs about $70 million each. At the moment the Block 3 will come close to the F-16I capabilities and the JF-17B Block 3 will cost less than half what the F-16I does while having some of the capabilities. What China is really touting here is the availability of a jet fighter that is cheap and performs somewhat like an F-16. For many countries, this is an attractive option. The only problem is that there are hundreds of second-hand (and very well maintained) F-16s on the market, selling for less than the bare-bones JF-17.

The JF-17 design is partly based on a canceled Russian project, the MiG-33. Originally, Pakistan wanted Western electronics in the JF-17, but because of the risk of Chinese technology theft, and pressure from the United States (who did not want China to steal more Western aviation electronics), the JF-17 uses Chinese and Pakistani electronics.

The 13 ton JF-17 can carry 3.6 tons of weapons and uses radar guided and heat seeking missiles. It has max speed of nearly 2,000 kilometers an hour, an operating range of 1,300 kilometers and a max altitude of nearly 18,000 meters (55,000 feet). China says it does not want to use the JF-17 itself because its own J-10 (another local design) and J-11 (a license-built Russian Su-27) are adequate for their needs. The J-10, like the JF-17, did not work out as well as was hoped, but that's another matter. Meanwhile, Pakistan has several squadrons in service and more being formed. The JF-17, along with the American F-16s Pakistan has long used, were both used against Islamic terrorists in the tribal territories where both aircraft performed well using guided and unguided bombs. 

from Strategy Page so take it with a pinch of salt.

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## fatman17

Nice to catch up with Sqn Ldr Shaukat at the static JF-17 this morning - wearing a nice patch for Paris Air Show. During a night shoot at his base back in April he was flying one of the Minhasian Thunders. https://t.co/U9TMUI1Hs0

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## fatman17

There are nine Pakistan AF JF-17 Thunders in Europe right now. Three Minhasian jets @parisairshow and six from the most recent JF-17 unit to stand up, Pheonix, at Konya in Turkey for Exercise Anatolian Eagle. I arrived in Paris this evening and hope to be in Konya next week.
Alan Warnes

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## Path-Finder

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1141254389472124928
Significant step in EW development and we know the importance of keeping pace with EW.

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## fatman17

JF-17 Thunder steps into the Electronic Warfare domain. https://t.co/mdz3mOwfea

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## fatman17

F-16 Aircraft DatabaseF-16 Accidents & Mishaps for the Pakistan Air Force.




Found 9 aircraft, displaying 1-9 [Sorted by Date]DateStatusLocal S/NAircraftAF/UnitVersionInfoDetails

22 Oct 1994[w/o]8270181-0899 PAF 11 sqnF-16A Block 15EDetails

Crashed near Sargodha AB after suffering a birdhit. The pilot ejected safely.

04 Sep 1989[w/o]8471281-0910 PAF 38 TWF-16A Block 15QDetails

During a night sortie and a few minutes after take-off from Sargodha AB, the wingman informed his lead - Sqn.Ldr. Zafar Ahsan - and ground control that he is disoriented. They tried to help by repeatedly telling him to concentrate on the instruments but he crashed a few miles from Sarghoda, killing the pilot.

29 Apr 1987[w/o]8572081-0918 PAF 14 sqnF-16A Block 15SDetails

Shot down by Wing Commander Amjad Javed - mistakenly shooting down his wingman. Flight Lieutenant Shahid Sikandar Khan ejected safely.

17 Mar 1994[w/o]8572181-0919 PAF 14 sqnF-16A Block 15SDetails

Crashed near Sargodha AB due to spatial dissorientation. The pilot was killed in the accident.

16 Jun 1991[w/o]8572381-0921 PAF 9 sqnF-16A Block 15TDetails

On a night training mission with one other F-16. Returning to Kamra AB to land suffered an engine failure forcing Squadron Leader Syed Hassan Raza to eject.

27 Oct 1991[w/o]8572581-0923 PAF 14 sqnF-16A Block 15UDetails

Crashed in Attock, Pakistan after it suffered an engine failure during a dogfight training mission with the pilot, Squadron Leader Nadeem Anjum, ejected safely. The engine failure was caused by installing not an original part in the engine during routine maintenance.

10 Nov 1993[w/o]8460781-0937 PAF 38 TWF-16B Block 15NDetails

Crash caused by a birdhit. Both pilots ejected safely.

18 Dec 1986[w/o]8560981-1504 PAF 38 TWF-16B Block 15UDetails

The aircraft took off from Sargodha AB and hit a wild boar causing the two pilots to eject. One of them was Sqn Ldr Faaiz Amir.

17 Jul 2009[w/o]9272992-0405F-16A Block 15AQ OCUNews ArticleDetails

The plane was on a routine night training mission when it crashed close to village of NurPur, 105km south west of Sargodha. The pilot, Squadron Leader Saud Ghulam Nabi, was sadly killed.

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## fatman17

Dearth Of Fighter Jets In Paris Air Show Aerial Displays

Our Bureau 12:04 PM, June 18, 2019

JF-17 Thunder at Paris Air Show 2019

With just the Pakistani-Chinese JF-17 and Dassault Rafale among fighter jets performing aerial displays at the ongoing Paris Air Show 2019, the skies over Le Bourget were missing the thunder and after-burner flame that are the hallmark of any air show.

“JF-17 Thunder multi-role fighter jet of Pakistan Air Force gave an impressive performance at the opening ceremony of the 53rd edition of 7-day International Paris Air Show,” Pakistani newspaper The News glossed over the performance of its country’s fighter jet.

The only other combat jet to take part in the air show, France’s Dassault Rafale went about its climbs, loops and dives in a monotonous manner having performed the same maneuvers at previous Paris and other shows in the Middle East and Asia.

The Belgian Air Force’s F-16s are expected to add to these two flying displays during public days this weekend.

Eurofighter Typhoon, flown by the UK and German air forces, was conspicuous by its absence in the flying display; an indication perhaps of its depleting sales prospects globally. It recently lost out a bid to sell 8 jets to Bulgaria which preferred US-made F-16s instead. It only sales prospects are probably Germany and maybe Switzerland which are looking to buy new jets.

In fact, Eurofighter has not issued the customary press release on the eve of the show, a practice which most jet manufacturers do on the eve of a major event. Eurofighter was missing from the static displays as well.

Saab Gripen, another European jet seeing depleting global demand too was missing; both from the flying and static displays. Saab was recently asked by Switzerland’s defense procurement agency, Armasuisse to cancel its flight test as part of the Swiss fighter jet procurement program. Armasuisse doubted that the Gripen E jet would be ready in time for the procurement planned for 2022.

The hot selling F-35, Europe’s most purchased fighter jet in recent years, was brought to the show but only in static display.

Adding to dampness of the flying display was the absence of Russian jets such as the Su-35 and MiG-35. While the Russians were keen to bring their jets to the show, European Union sanctions against Russia prevented them from doing so. A Rosoboronexport press released blamed ‘competition,’ for the situation and invited potential customers to the Moscow show, MAKS in August to view ‘spectacular’ flying demonstrations.

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## Ali_Baba

Very interesting!!! didnot realise only Rafale and JF17s were doing the rounds. The JF17 has a good future ahead of it!!!

Maybe PAF can stay behind for a few days, and dance with Rafales in training exercises !!!!!!

A few piccies of the JF17 with the Rafale flying over the Eiffel tower will go down a treat! Come on France, give us the crowds what we are looking for...


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## Adam_Khan

fatman17 said:


> JF-17 Thunder steps into the Electronic Warfare domain. https://t.co/mdz3mOwfea
> View attachment 565938



Looks like Paf is planning on using JF.17's the same way Indians used their Bisons during the Cope India exercise in early 2000's.


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## fatman17

One for the PAF fans. The two JF-17 Thunder display pilots Wg Cdr Baryar (left) and Sqn Ldr Sibtain hosted me for a great lunch at the flightline yesterday just before the former did his display. https://t.co/Pm9WthrBrf

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## fatman17

The green JF-17 with Wg Cdr Zaryar at controls prepares to taxis out yesterday. Sqn Ldr Sibtain flew the grey one today. https://t.co/hRPksqaC2G

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## Armchair

PAF needs to seriously work on UCAVs both as BVR shooters and for strike missions. PAF also needs to stop being stubborn about LR-SAMs. UCAVs and LR-SAMs would complicate the work of Indian planners and pilots to no end. Its those extra things you have to think about in the heat of battle that often gets you.

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## Tamiyah

Armchair said:


> PAF needs to seriously work on UCAVs both as BVR shooters and for strike missions. PAF also needs to stop being stubborn about LR-SAMs. UCAVs and LR-SAMs would complicate the work of Indian planners and pilots to no end. Its those extra things you have to think about in the heat of battle that often gets you.


Sir I dont know about anyone else but I have a feeling or a belief that PAF operates many types of UCAV but they are not public. I think mostly are from China.


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## Deltadart

Where do things stand with Egyptian mirages? Have we received any yet?


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## fatman17

Deltadart said:


> Where do things stand with Egyptian mirages? Have we received any yet?


On their way


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## fatman17

Possibility for Thunder.

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## AsifIjaz

The only way this engine might see light with thunder is if KSA buys a few dozen thunders as this engine will be common with its current fleet of eurofighters. Although it has more thrust and is more fuel efficient, even if we could afford it there is no way we are getting approval for its export yo pakistan.
What i am more interested in whether rd93MA matches it in terms of dry/wet thurst and in terms of fuel economy

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## nomi007

fatman17 said:


> Possibility for Thunder.
> View attachment 566247


only possible if we start jf-17 next gen version with turkey

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## mingle

fatman17 said:


> Possibility for Thunder.
> View attachment 566247


May open door for EF for PAF as well it would be a good deal both GCC Pak and BAE.


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## Armchair

I have a feeling PAF is going for a new Chinese engine in the block 3. The same one rumored for the J-31 project.


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## fatman17

JFT at Paris

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## Armchair

Let us imagine a worst case scenario for the PAF:
1. India buys more Rafales - numbers go up to 100
2. It upgrades comprehensively and comes up with a new game plan
3. PAF doesn't have the budget to follow suit, no new aircraft type can be inducted. Azm is 10 years away and block 3 is operationally 2 years away. 
4. PAF will not only face a qualitative problem but a quantitative one, with retiring airframes of Mirages and F-7s

What could PAF do?

MIX IT UP: PAF could play the strategy of a variety bowler. It can introduce low cost BVR UCAVs and strike UCAVs. It can bring in LRSAMs into the mix. This could simply be Nasr-like missiles with multiple SD-10s carried within, or S-200 level local SAMs. The difference they would make would be that ingressing IAF aircraft would have to spend extra effort to dodge them or to release their strike loads. 
Increase the number of threat axis for ingressing IAF aircraft. 

MODERNIZE LEGACY AIRCRAFT: PAF can re-manufacture Mirages, comprehensively. With Block 2 and Block 1 JFT being upgraded, these Mirages could receive the radar and avionics package of the block 1/2 JFTs and become potent air defence aircraft. 
PAF could also buy an additional 50 F-7PGs, could be bought second hand from retiring Chinese stock for pennies or given even for free. These could be upgraded with a small AESA radar. The main problem that the F-7s / MiG-21s have faced for so long is that their nose is not big enough for a decent radar. This problem has recently been solved with air-breathing, low cost GaN AESA radars. Such radars would allow the F-7PGs to shoot SD-10s at decent BVR ranges. 
Upgraded such, PAF F-7PGs would get a new lease of life and act as point defence fighters and Close Air Support aircraft for the PA. 

INCREASE PRODUCTION OF BLOCK 3s: This I think is a long awaited upgraded and should be a no-brainer. 

USE E-BOMBS: IAF has been using increasingly large formations against PAF. A well-placed E-bomb would fry the electronics of such a formation. Would almost be an e-bomb SAM.

SCARE THEM: Get some JH-7As for strike, and pay visits to near Mumbai and Goa in the way that the Russians use their BEARs. This would expose the weakness of their radar network and defenses in the Southern Command, forcing IAF to put its valuable resources defending this sector rather than acting aggressively up north.

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## Armchair

SURGE: Least 6 J-10Ds and keep two squadrons worth of pilots trained. If tensions rise, PLAAF can send you two squadrons of J-10Cs and you would have an instant boost in air power.

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## MastanKhan

Armchair said:


> SURGE: Least 6 J-10Ds and keep two squadrons worth of pilots trained. If tensions rise, PLAAF can send you two squadrons of J-10Cs and you would have an instant boost in air power.



Hi,

Tactically---it is better to have those 2 sqdrn's on your air bases---than sitting in china---.

Modern day combat / war is different---. 

The more you have on your lots---it prevents the enemy from starting war---.

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## skyshadow

*Shahed_129 drone mark *

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## Armchair

Hi @MastanKhan that is ideal of course. I was just stating that if PAF finds the J-10s too expensive to buy, this could be a second-best solution.

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## Ultima Thule

Armchair said:


> Hi @MastanKhan that is ideal of course. I was just stating that if PAF finds the J-10s too expensive to buy, this could be a second-best solution.


What is the first options for PAF bro @Armchair


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## araz

Armchair said:


> Let us imagine a worst case scenario for the PAF:
> 1. India buys more Rafales - numbers go up to 100
> 2. It upgrades comprehensively and comes up with a new game plan
> 3. PAF doesn't have the budget to follow suit, no new aircraft type can be inducted. Azm is 10 years away and block 3 is operationally 2 years away.
> 4. PAF will not only face a qualitative problem but a quantitative one, with retiring airframes of Mirages and F-7s
> 
> What could PAF do?
> 
> MIX IT UP: PAF could play the strategy of a variety bowler. It can introduce low cost BVR UCAVs and strike UCAVs. It can bring in LRSAMs into the mix. This could simply be Nasr-like missiles with multiple SD-10s carried within, or S-200 level local SAMs. The difference they would make would be that ingressing IAF aircraft would have to spend extra effort to dodge them or to release their strike loads.
> Increase the number of threat axis for ingressing IAF aircraft.
> 
> MODERNIZE LEGACY AIRCRAFT: PAF can re-manufacture Mirages, comprehensively. With Block 2 and Block 1 JFT being upgraded, these Mirages could receive the radar and avionics package of the block 1/2 JFTs and become potent air defence aircraft.
> PAF could also buy an additional 50 F-7PGs, could be bought second hand from retiring Chinese stock for pennies or given even for free. These could be upgraded with a small AESA radar. The main problem that the F-7s / MiG-21s have faced for so long is that their nose is not big enough for a decent radar. This problem has recently been solved with air-breathing, low cost GaN AESA radars. Such radars would allow the F-7PGs to shoot SD-10s at decent BVR ranges.
> Upgraded such, PAF F-7PGs would get a new lease of life and act as point defence fighters and Close Air Support aircraft for the PA.
> 
> INCREASE PRODUCTION OF BLOCK 3s: This I think is a long awaited upgraded and should be a no-brainer.
> 
> USE E-BOMBS: IAF has been using increasingly large formations against PAF. A well-placed E-bomb would fry the electronics of such a formation. Would almost be an e-bomb SAM.
> 
> SCARE THEM: Get some JH-7As for strike, and pay visits to near Mumbai and Goa in the way that the Russians use their BEARs. This would expose the weakness of their radar network and defenses in the Southern Command, forcing IAF to put its valuable resources defending this sector rather than acting aggressively up north.


The only realistic option is to get more JFTs.M3/5s dont have the legs and upgrades will require funding which could suddenly run into 100s of millions. Same problem with J7s and the most advanced AESA will not change the short leggedness of the fighter.
Regards

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## Armchair

araz said:


> The only realistic option is to get more JFTs.M3/5s dont have the legs and upgrades will require funding which could suddenly run into 100s of millions. Same problem with J7s and the most advanced AESA will not change the short leggedness of the fighter.
> Regards



Hi Araz,

The Mirages have done just fine so far as regards strike. Their short-leggedness has not been a major issue so far. It makes sense therefore to do anything to keep their numbers up, and their capabilities as current as possible. 

Same goes with the F-7PGs, if they can be made to use the SD-10, they would make effective point defense fighters, in that role and in the defensive Close Air Support (CAS) role, they are the best bang for the buck.


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## SQ8

Armchair said:


> Hi Araz,
> 
> The Mirages have done just fine so far as regards strike. Their short-leggedness has not been a major issue so far. It makes sense therefore to do anything to keep their numbers up, and their capabilities as current as possible.
> 
> Same goes with the F-7PGs, if they can be made to use the SD-10, they would make effective point defense fighters, in that role and in the defensive Close Air Support (CAS) role, they are the best bang for the buck.


The range for the Grifo-7PG doesn’t justify a BVR system even though they do practice the engagement process.

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## Armchair

Oscar said:


> The range for the Grifo-7PG doesn’t justify a BVR system even though they do practice the engagement process.



I was suggesting upgrading the Grifo with an air cooled AESA, given the price drop in AESA technologies, even GaN. The problem with the F-7s have always been the small nosecone, and now the solution is there. Do with the PGs what we did with the Mirages, and you'd have a very potent point interceptor and (defensive) CAS aircraft.


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## denel

Oscar said:


> The range for the Grifo-7PG doesn’t justify a BVR system even though they do practice the engagement process.


not to mention integration between SD10 and Grifo; these are different architectures.


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## Armchair

denel said:


> not to mention integration between SD10 and Grifo; these are different architectures.



There is apparently a Chinese company trying to sell small, low cost air cooled AESA radars that is scalable and their target audience seems to be refitting older aircraft (or in this case even the JFT). One such radar is (was?) even up for contention for the Block 3 / block 1/2 upgrade.

With the Mirage IIIs one could also refit the PD radars from the Block 2/1 JFTs, once AESAs are installed in the latter; that would be a cheap BVR upgrade.


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## SQ8

denel said:


> not to mention integration between SD10 and Grifo; these are different architectures.


That can be worked around, the problem is that unlike the Bison the PG’s have a really small space for the Antenna.

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## denel

Armchair said:


> There is apparently a Chinese company trying to sell small, low cost air cooled AESA radars that is scalable and their target audience seems to be refitting older aircraft (or in this case even the JFT). One such radar is (was?) even up for contention for the Block 3 / block 1/2 upgrade.
> 
> With the Mirage IIIs one could also refit the PD radars from the Block 2/1 JFTs, once AESAs are installed in the latter; that would be a cheap BVR upgrade.


yes i do get your point but the question is how much money you want to spend. in my humble opinion PGs are pretty good for what they deliver and there needs to be an upgrade path for them as well.



Oscar said:


> That can be worked around, the problem is that unlike the Bison the PG’s have a really small space for the Antenna.


yes, in comms we have a saying it does not matter how good your electronics are if your antenna is no good. excellent antenna makes or breaks a radar. Bison still has a larger area unlike the 21F small cone.

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## SQ8

denel said:


> yes i do get your point but the question is how much money you want to spend. in my humble opinion PGs are pretty good for what they deliver and there needs to be an upgrade path for them as well.
> 
> 
> yes, in comms we have a saying it does not matter how good your electronics are if your antenna is no good. excellent antenna makes or breaks a radar. Bison still has a larger area unlike the 21F small cone.


Since the Indian influence (among others)in SA and our economic woes still exists there is no point discussing the possibility of using the A darter seeker on the R-darter to give a R-77T type capability.

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## denel

Oscar said:


> Since the Indian influence (among others)in SA and our economic woes still exists there is no point discussing the possibility of using the A darter seeker on the R-darter to give a R-77T type capability.


oscar, indian influence is dead with the departure of Guptas; any mention of Indian is a no go zone; so forget any indian influence for next 2 generations. Darters mated with PG will run circles around Bison or M2K.

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## fatman17

There is a message in this

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## fatman17

Numerous collaborations can happen. 
China - Pakistan 
Turkey - Pakistan 
Italy - Pakistan 

The only roadblock is our current state of the economy / financial situation but this also can be overcome by reducing the "waste " in our budget and proper utilisation of the funds.

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## Army research

fatman17 said:


> There is a message in this
> View attachment 566807


" the future is in the skies "


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## Armchair

denel said:


> oscar, indian influence is dead with the departure of Guptas; any mention of Indian is a no go zone; so forget any indian influence for next 2 generations. Darters mated with PG will run circles around Bison or M2K.



So perhaps, the upgrade path of the PG could be not a radar upgrade but data links and some kind of a Darter - like Oscar intriguingly suggests - an A-darter / R-Darter hybrid. Or perhaps a combination of Darters.


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## denel

Armchair said:


> So perhaps, the upgrade path of the PG could be not a radar upgrade but data links and some kind of a Darter - like Oscar intriguingly suggests - an A-darter / R-Darter hybrid. Or perhaps a combination of Darters.


Correct a combination of darters is not out of the question either

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## mingle

fatman17 said:


> Numerous collaborations can happen.
> China - Pakistan
> Turkey - Pakistan
> Italy - Pakistan
> 
> The only roadblock is our current state of the economy / financial situation but this also can be overcome by reducing the "waste " in our budget and proper utilisation of the funds.


@fatman17 EF r coming from Italy???


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## ACE OF THE AIR

mingle said:


> @fatman17 EF r coming from Italy???


SU35's...


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## mingle

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> SU35's...


No no Sorry no Russian jetts European option is better.


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## fatman17

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> SU35's...


Italian offer is on the table, that's all I can confirm.

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## fatman17

mingle said:


> @fatman17 EF r coming from Italy???


True, offer is on the table. EF tranche 1 with upgrade.

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## mingle

fatman17 said:


> True, offer is on the table. EF tranche 1 with upgrade.


Should take it along few more new and used EFs happy we looking EU option yes also look for F16 AESA upgrades.



ACE OF THE AIR said:


> SU35's...


Russian r good for Army needs tanks, Gunships, APCs along air defence needs SAM systems jetts no good.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

fatman17 said:


> Italian offer is on the table, that's all I can confirm.


I had known of the Italian offer being on the table for some time. Unfortunately yesterday came to know that the chances of SU-35 are greater. 

We all know how things work in PAF so we can not be sure till the aircraft actually lands on Pakistani soil in PAF's colours to confirm.

Seems like Turkey is considering JF-17.

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## HRK

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Seems like Turkey is considering JF-17


there is no reason to believe this as Turkey have no need for any new 4th gen platform ....

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## Windjammer

A new book on the 1971 Air War by Sir Kaiser Tufail is being republished by Helion Publshing UK. It will be a fully illustrated edition. Likely to see the book stands early next year.

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## fatman17

Windjammer said:


> A new book on the 1971 Air War by Sir Kaiser Tufail is being republished by Helion Publshing UK. It will be a fully illustrated edition. Likely to see the book stands early next year.
> 
> 
> View attachment 566939


You mentioned republished, is there a local edition available?

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## Armchair

denel said:


> Correct a combination of darters is not out of the question either



A non-emitting F-7PG could fire an IR-Darter guided by AWACs or other aircraft in the formation. That would make an interesting interceptor. 

I am also very interested in the close air support capability of the F-7PG. The wing design means it is far more ideal than a regular MiG-21 could ever be for such a mission. Basically, Pakistan has an area between Southern Punjab and Northern Sindh where there is a "gap" and it is expected that Indian armored forces could move towards this area with possible maneuver warfare taking place. A defensive CAS mission would not need long legs, just a good variety of munitions, a few passes in this open and inaccessible desert would leave any incoming armored formations worse for wear.



mingle said:


> Should take it along few more new and used EFs happy we looking EU option yes also look for F16 AESA upgrades.
> 
> 
> Russian r good for Army needs tanks, Gunships, APCs along air defence needs SAM systems jetts no good.



PAF has a habit of evaluating all kinds of systems, almost anything it gets in hands on. It is very hard to guess what the PAF will buy based on an evaluation. 

It would be amazing if the PAF got Eurofighters with Meteor integration. That would be a killer counter to the IAF as the Eurofighter has always been the better a2a platform.

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## syed_yusuf

fatman17 said:


> True, offer is on the table. EF tranche 1 with upgrade.



is the offer for older EF with upgrade to trench 3 plus some new trench 3. is this offer mated to buying M346?

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## mingle

syed_yusuf said:


> is the offer for older EF with upgrade to trench 3 plus some new trench 3. is this offer mated to buying M346?


18 to 24 New along used one upgrade is just great no need for more New F16s


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## mingle

Armchair said:


> A non-emitting F-7PG could fire an IR-Darter guided by AWACs or other aircraft in the formation. That would make an interesting interceptor.
> 
> I am also very interested in the close air support capability of the F-7PG. The wing design means it is far more ideal than a regular MiG-21 could ever be for such a mission. Basically, Pakistan has an area between Southern Punjab and Northern Sindh where there is a "gap" and it is expected that Indian armored forces could move towards this area with possible maneuver warfare taking place. A defensive CAS mission would not need long legs, just a good variety of munitions, a few passes in this open and inaccessible desert would leave any incoming armored formations worse for wear.
> 
> 
> 
> PAF has a habit of evaluating all kinds of systems, almost anything it gets in hands on. It is very hard to guess what the PAF will buy based on an evaluation.
> 
> It would be amazing if the PAF got Eurofighters with Meteor integration. That would be a killer counter to the IAF as the Eurofighter has always been the better a2a platform.


I am not fan of Russian jet 27 feb is good example we should negotiate used and new typhoons if this happens F16 chapter is closed for good yes upgrade them along used F16s.

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## fatman17

syed_yusuf said:


> is the offer for older EF with upgrade to trench 3 plus some new trench 3. is this offer mated to buying M346?


No M346s

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## mingle

fatman17 said:


> No M346s


Even with trench 1 upgrades along new jets subsystems enough juice for leonardo

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## Windjammer

fatman17 said:


> You mentioned republished, is there a local edition available?


The locally published book is available in Pakistan under the title, 'In the Ring and on Its Feet' published by Ferozsons

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## fatman17

Windjammer said:


> The locally published book is available in Pakistan under the title, 'In the Ring and on Its Feet' published by Ferozsons


Thanks mate


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## Armchair

mingle said:


> I am not fan of Russian jet 27 feb is good example we should negotiate used and new typhoons if this happens F16 chapter is closed for good yes upgrade them along used F16s.



The lesson learned from 27 Feb is that electronic warfare, radar, data links, missiles matter a lot. A MiG-35 with Chinese AESA and weapons suite would use that lesson learned while still being a "Russian jet". I think if we lump it all as "Russian jet" then we lose the depth of analysis that could be more fruitful for us. 

Anyways, it seems PAF now feels that the latest Block 3 is capable of dealing with the Rafale. So our discussion is actually moot.

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## fatman17

Spent last couple of days at Konya, Turkey for Anatolian Eagle 19 exercise. Plenty to see including Royal Jordanian AF F-16s, Qatar C-17 and C-130J, Pakistan AF JF-17s operating alongside the likes of six 48th FW F-15Es and three Italian AMX. Plus lots of Turkish F-16s and F-4s.

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## Armchair

Following are the options available to the PAF:

1. JF-17 Block 3 with Chinese AESA and weapons package
2. JF-17 Block 3 with Selex Grifo-E and Meteor (!!!)
3. Eurofighter from Italy with Meteor
4. J-10C
5. Su-35 as perhaps a joint buy with China 

The main problem I see with point 5 is CAATSA. Pakistan doesn't seem strong enough to stand against this. On the other hand, if the news is credible, PAF is showing strong interested with it. One loophole PAF could use is to buy them through China - since Russia has made an offer to China to purchase the Su-35. 

The Su-35 would give PAF the ability to strike deep into the Indian Ocean, keeping IN carriers at bay, and even causing IAF to shift significant assets to protect the South (which is largely neglected by them). Thus reducing IAF actual capability in the Northern and Western commands.

It would also be a very direct threat to IN shipping, and to Mumbai, Goa and other important centers in the South. It would be very hard for IN to maintain SLOC through the Persian Gulf if PAF had a good number of well-armed Su-35s.


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## Path-Finder

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1144528322321424384
This along with SOJ can fulfill future EW needs of the nation.

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## Keysersoze

Path-Finder said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1144528322321424384
> This along with SOJ can fulfill future EW needs of the nation.


Whats wrong with new Falcon jets?


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## Path-Finder

Keysersoze said:


> Whats wrong with new Falcon jets?


?


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## Thorough Pro

A *trench* is a type of excavation or depression in the ground that is generally deeper than it is wide (as opposed to a wider gully, or ditch), and narrow compared with its length (as opposed to a simple hole).[1]

he word _*tranche*_ is French for 'slice', 'section', 'series', or 'portion'. In structured finance, a *tranche* is one of a number of related securities offered as part of the same transaction. 




mingle said:


> Even with trench 1 upgrades along new jets subsystems enough juice for leonardo

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## Avicenna

Thorough Pro said:


> A *trench* is a type of excavation or depression in the ground that is generally deeper than it is wide (as opposed to a wider gully, or ditch), and narrow compared with its length (as opposed to a simple hole).[1]
> 
> he word _*tranche*_ is French for 'slice', 'section', 'series', or 'portion'. In structured finance, a *tranche* is one of a number of related securities offered as part of the same transaction.



LOL!


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## MIRauf

Ah the crux of English as Second Language, Trench vs Tranche, I guess things for us get lost in the translation somewhere every once in a while.

Oh a lighter note, I think you meant to write "The word tranche .." and copy paste likely ate the "t" and ended up instead with "he word tranche ..."

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## mingle

MIRauf said:


> Ah the crux of English as Second Language, Trench vs Tranche, I guess things for us get lost in the translation somewhere every once in a while.
> 
> Oh a lighter note, I think you meant to write "The word tranche .." and copy paste likely ate the "t" and ended up instead with "he word tranche ..."


It's fine when we talk we all know what we talking about


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## fatman17

China Offers Two-Seat Fighter Trainer FC-1B For International Sales

Our Bureau 09:46 AM, June 28, 2019

A model of FC-1B fighter trainer Paris Air Show (image: Xinhua)

China has offered its two-seat fighter-trainer FC-1B for international sales by showing its model at the Paris Air Show last week.

It is not known at what stage of development the FC-1B is. The aircraft is based on the FC-1, whose export version, the JF-17 Thunder, is doing duty in the Pakistan Air Force (PAF).

“The FC-1B advanced trainer is a sophisticated type that has won universal praise in the international arena. Equipped with multi-functions, this type of fighter trainer is scarce in the international market and has bright market prospects,” said military expert Li Li, during an interview with China’s state broadcaster CCTV.

The fighter trainer has all-weather combat capability, equivalent to that of the JF-17 Thunder. It can use air-to-air missiles in beyond visual range conditions and short-range air-to-air missiles in air combat. It can be equipped with air-to-ground missiles, air-to-ship missiles, precision-guided bombs, and conventional bombs to conduct airstrikes to the ground and sea. The trainer can also be used for basic pilot training as well as tactical flight training.

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## Maxpane

hope we get some orders


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## fatman17

Maxpane said:


> hope we get some orders


Myanmar and Nigeria definitely for training their pilots.


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## Maxpane

fatman17 said:


> Myanmar and Nigeria definitely for training their pilots.


sir what about malaysia?

sir you were talking about Euro fighter isnt it expensive to upgrade trench 1 to trench 3?


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## fatman17

Maxpane said:


> sir what about malaysia?


Too much competition there. India, South Korea, Russia, US. Would be very surprised if Malaysia opts for JFT.


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## Maxpane

fatman17 said:


> Too much competition there. India, South Korea, Russia, US. Would be very surprised if Malaysia opts for JFT.


hmm . thank you sir for your kind reply


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## ghazi52

1965 photo of Squadron Leader Najeeb Ahmed Khan with a B-57 in the background. Now retired Air Commodore, Najeeb can be seen visiting crash site of his friend Squadron Leader Shabbir Alam Siddiqui near Jamnagar in CNN-IBN special 'Missing in Action' documentary. In 1965 war, Najeeb piloted B-57 in bombing attacks on various IAF bases including Ambala, Jodhpur, Halwara and Adamapur.


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## The Eagle



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## Keysersoze

fatman17 said:


> Too much competition there. India, South Korea, Russia, US. Would be very surprised if Malaysia opts for JFT.


India---No chance. The product is a mess with high costs and dubious supply lines
South Korea---Will be too expensive (Good product though)
Russia---Possible but they have a bad rep with serviceability of the Jets that the RMAF already operate. they are retiring the mig29's they already have.(They may just order more su35's)
US---Possible depending but the political situation may affect this one. As well as expensive (They may just order more hornets)
Pakistan---Possible if they are happy with the product.

It will boil down to price. That's the reason why the MRCA deal for the RMAF was shelved.

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## fatman17

Keysersoze said:


> India---No chance. The product is a mess with high costs and dubious supply lines
> South Korea---Will be too expensive (Good product though)
> Russia---Possible but they have a bad rep with serviceability of the Jets that the RMAF already operate. they are retiring the mig29's they already have.(They may just order more su35's)
> US---Possible depending but the political situation may affect this one. As well as expensive (They may just order more hornets)
> Pakistan---Possible if they are happy with the product.
> 
> It will boil down to price. That's the reason why the MRCA deal for the RMAF was shelved.


Fair assessment but I feel SKorea may offer a loan package to get the deal.

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## Keysersoze

fatman17 said:


> Fair assessment but I feel SKorea may offer a loan package to get the deal.


I looked at the planes potentially involved in this. And have had a rethink.

---T-50 Golden Eagle, Russia’s YAK-130, Leonardo M-346FA, BAE Systems Hawk, India’s Tejas and the JF-17 Thunder from Pakistan.---

I think the first 4 probably have the best chances. With the HAWK the The M-346FA and T50 having the best chances. They are looking to spend up to 1.6 billion dollars to supply 36 aircraft. It will then depend on what additional infrastructure they need.

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## Silicon0000

It's also depends on strategic support that comes with fighter jets. One of the main factor where JF17 lacks the most. The main competition is between Russia’s YAK-130, Leonardo M-346FA, BAE Systems Hawk. Price and terms of payment is also critical for Malaysia so I think Chinese involvement can play a role in JF17 getting winner.


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## nomi007

The Eagle said:


>


better to place also
mig-21, su-30mki & mi-17v5


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## ghazi52

Pakistan, Russia agree to expand mutual cooperation & defence ties

July 02, 2019







Pakistan and Russia have agreed to further enhance and expand mutual cooperation and defence ties between the two countries.

This understanding reached during a meeting between Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan and Commander-in-Chief Russian Ground Forces General Oleg Salyukov in Islamabad today (Tuesday).

Various matters pertaining to regional security and bilateral relations came under discussion during the meeting.

Russian Commander paid homage to the martyrs of Pakistan Air Force by laying floral wreath on Martyrs’ Monument.

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## khanasifm

ghazi52 said:


> Pakistan, Russia agree to expand mutual cooperation & defence ties
> 
> July 02, 2019
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan and Russia have agreed to further enhance and expand mutual cooperation and defence ties between the two countries.
> 
> This understanding reached during a meeting between Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan and Commander-in-Chief Russian Ground Forces General Oleg Salyukov in Islamabad today (Tuesday).
> 
> Various matters pertaining to regional security and bilateral relations came under discussion during the meeting.
> 
> Russian Commander paid homage to the martyrs of Pakistan Air Force by laying floral wreath on Martyrs’ Monument.



Interesting model of anti ship missile perhaps c-803 or 802ak/akg

One area where jf surpasses mirages and f-16 per acm


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## ghazi52

1940s: Four Future Air Force Chiefs Together in the Royal Air Force

Seen in this picture are Air Chief Marshal Mehra Indian CAS from 1973-76, Air Marshal Asghar Khan, Air Marshal Nur Khan and Air Marshal Zafar Chaudhry. Asghar Khan opted for Politics, Nur Khan was Deputy CMLA, Minister for Social Sectors and Governor of West Pakistan. Zafar Chaudhry headed the PIA and PAF

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## GriffinsRule

Keysersoze said:


> I looked at the planes potentially involved in this. And have had a rethink.
> 
> ---T-50 Golden Eagle, Russia’s YAK-130, Leonardo M-346FA, BAE Systems Hawk, India’s Tejas and the JF-17 Thunder from Pakistan.---
> 
> I think the first 4 probably have the best chances. With the HAWK the The M-346FA and T50 having the best chances. They are looking to spend up to 1.6 billion dollars to supply 36 aircraft. It will then depend on what additional infrastructure they need.


Yeah JF-17 is really going to be an underdog in this competition. BAe is already offering to upgrade the Hawks in RMAF inventory with new radars and weapons. They will push them to buy a tried and tested platform that the Malaysians have had decades of experience with already.
Similarly, RMAF is also in the market to buy additional F-18C/Ds from Kuwait as they replace them with newer jets. This is probably the most attractive option for them given the reliability of American products, infrastructure in place as well as the added benefit of two engines vs one while flying over large tracts of ocean and islands. 
Yak-130, M-346 and LCA have the least chance for success I believe as their is either no commonality or dubious chances for after sales support. 
JF-17 in my opinion falls between these two groups. If it were up to me, the quickest and easiest way forward would be upgrading Hawks and Hornets (incl Kuwaiti ones). JF-17s chances are there in terms of it being a new airframe and the assortment of weapons it would offer as well as an AESA radar for a cost bracket thats hard to meet. T-50 while good on paper doesnt offer any benefit imo.

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## fatman17

Silicon0000 said:


> It's also depends on strategic support that comes with fighter jets. One of the main factor where JF17 lacks the most. The main competition is between Russia’s YAK-130, Leonardo M-346FA, BAE Systems Hawk. Price and terms of payment is also critical for Malaysia so I think Chinese involvement can play a role in JF17 getting winner.


China, Malaysia are not at at good terms with Malaysia PM cancellation of Chinese projects recently.


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## fatman17

The latest news (October 2018) claimed that Pakistan plans to produce 48 _Wing Loong II_ under licence at PAC Kamra. 
any further update on this news?


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## HRK

fatman17 said:


> The latest news (October 2018) claimed that Pakistan plans to produce 48 _Wing Loong II_ under licence at PAC Kamra.
> any further update on this news?


allegedly it was a fake news

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## fatman17

HRK said:


> allegedly it was a fake news


Ok


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## fatman17

JF-17 Block 3 Begins Initial Production; New Fighter to Revolutionise Pakistani Capabilities

March-14th-2019


JF-17 Block 3 Concept Design

Chief designer of the JF-17 Thunder fighter jet Yang Wei, also developer of the J-20 stealth fighter for the Chinese People's Liberation Army, reported in a press conference in early March 2019 that production of an advanced new variant of the combat jet, the JF-17 Block III, has been initiated. “All related work is being carried out… the third block will see the JF-17’s informatized warfare capability and weapons upgraded,” he stated. The aircraft is being developed under a joint venture between the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex and the Chengdu Aerospace Corporation, and production of the fighter in Pakistan is expected to be established at a later date much as it did with the Block I and Block II variants. The new fighter is set to revolutionise Pakistani aerial warfare capabilities, incorporating an advanced active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar (possibly the Chinese made KLJ-7A), new electronic warfare systems, a new fly by wire digital flight control system, a new helmet mounted display and access to a new wider range of more sophisticated munitions. This are reported to include new longer ranged and more sophisticated air to air munitions, the PL-15 according to some reports, and possibly more advanced variants of the PL-12, which will considerably enhance the aircraft’s performance in air to air combat.




Other possible upgrades to the JF-17 design which will be integrated onto the Block III variant include an infra red search and track system and a radar cross section reducing 'pseudo-stealthy' airframe. Use of a more powerful AESA radar will revolutionise the fighter’s situational awareness while at the same time minimising its radar signature to increase survivability. This radar system is expected to be more powerful than anything currently in Indian service other than the Bars passive electronically scanned array radar deployed by the Su-30MKI, and combined with new longer ranged air to air munitions, such as the PL-15 which with a 150km range currently outranges any analogues in Indian service, will provide Pakistan’s fleet with an edge




China’s Nanjing Research Institute of Electronics Technology is reportedly developing the new AESA radar system for the aircraft, which “can be fitted on the airframe very fast, ensuring a quick delivery time,” according to designer Yang. For the airframe itself, PAC is reportedly set to manufacture 58 percent, with Chengdu manufacturing the remaining 42 percent. The possibility for upgrading older variants of the JF-17 with new radars and avionics, particularly the JF-17 Block I which retains below average situational awareness, has also been raised. A number of foreign clients have expresses considerable interest in the fighter, which though considerably cheaper is far more sophisticated and capable than its widely marketed American analogue F-16C Fighting Falcon (though its airframe is still slower and less manoeuvrable - but capable of higher altitudes.) Among the interested parties are Egypt, Malaysia, Iran and Azerbaijan - with other states likely to follow suit particularly if the aircraft is capable of deploying high end long range missiles such as the PL-15 - which for many states would be a game changer for their aerial warfare capabilities.




JF-17 Block 3 Concept Design



[emoji767] 2018 Copyright www.militarywatchmagazine.com

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## Maxpane

fatman17 said:


> Other possible upgrades to the JF-17 design which will be integrated onto the Block III variant include an infra red search and track system and a radar cross section reducing 'pseudo-stealthy' airframe.


whats the meaning of these lines. sir kindly explain


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## GriffinsRule

Maxpane said:


> whats the meaning of these lines. sir kindly explain


Wishful thinking

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## hassan1



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## Keysersoze

Maxpane said:


> whats the meaning of these lines. sir kindly explain



These should help....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infrared_search_and_track
An *infrared search and track* (*IRST*) system (sometimes known as *infrared sighting and tracking*) is a method for detecting and tracking objects which give off infrared radiation (see Infrared signature) such as jet aircraft and helicopters.[1]

IRST is a generalized case of forward looking infrared (FLIR), i.e. from forward-looking to all-round situation awareness. Such systems are passive (thermographic camera), meaning they do not give out any radiation of their own, unlike radar. This gives them the advantage that they are difficult to detect.

However, because the atmosphere attenuates infrared to some extent (although not as much as visible light) and because adverse weather can attenuate it also (again, not as badly as visible systems), the range compared to a radar is limited. Within range, angular resolution is better than radar due to the shorter wavelength.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stealth_aircraft#General_design

The general design of a stealth aircraft is always aimed at reducing radar and thermal detection. It is the designer's top priority to satisfy the following conditions, which ultimately decide the success of the aircraft:-


Reducing thermal emission from thrust
Reducing radar detection by altering some general configuration (like introducing the split rudder)
Reducing radar detection when the aircraft opens its weapons bay
Reducing infra-red and radar detection during adverse weather conditions


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## fatman17

Maxpane said:


> whats the meaning of these lines. sir kindly explain


IRST is a generalized case of forward looking infrared (FLIR), i.e. from forward-looking to all-round situation awareness. Such systems are passive (thermographic camera), meaning they do not give out any radiation of their own, unlike radar.


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## Maxpane

fatman17 said:


> IRST is a generalized case of forward looking infrared (FLIR), i.e. from forward-looking to all-round situation awareness. Such systems are passive (thermographic camera), meaning they do not give out any radiation of their own, unlike radar.


thank you sir


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## hassan1



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## The Eagle

Today: PM Imran, Air Chief discuss matters pertaining to PAF.
Right before when PM IK is due to visit US on 22nd July, 2019.

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## mingle

The Eagle said:


> Today: PM Imran, Air Chief discuss matters pertaining to PAF.
> Right before when PM IK is due to visit US on 22nd July, 2019.


F sola


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## nomi007

hassan1 said:


> View attachment 568761
> View attachment 568761
> View attachment 568762
> View attachment 568763
> View attachment 568764
> View attachment 568765


Can you share images of Il-28, Paf Operated a number of H-5s under the designation B-56.


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## Ahmet Pasha

F16 troll bait 


The Eagle said:


> Today: PM Imran, Air Chief discuss matters pertaining to PAF.
> Right before when PM IK is due to visit US on 22nd July, 2019.

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## fatman17

Pakistan’s JF-17 Block III Fighter Jet to Make Maiden Flight by the End of 2019

The Pakistan Air Force plans to operationally deploy the latest variant of the JF-17 fighter jet in 2020.

https://t.co/LlZz3jEKgD

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## fatman17

Pakistan’s JF-17 Block III Fighter Jet to Make Maiden Flight by the End of 2019

The Pakistan Air Force plans to operationally deploy the latest variant of the JF-17 fighter jet in 2020.

By Franz-Stefan Gady

July 11, 2019


The Pakistan Aeronautical Complex/Chengdu Aerospace Corporation (PAC/CAC) JF-17 “Thunder” Block III multirole fighter aircraft will have its first flight before the end of 2019, according to local media reports.

The aircraft is set to operationally deploy with the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) in 2020 and induct all 50 planned JF-17 Block IIIs by 2024, according to the PAF Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan.

The JF-17 Block III has already entered production at the Aircraft Manufacturing Factory (AMF) final assembly line at PAC Kamra.


“Production of subassemblies has already started for the first two 50 Block 3 aircraft, to be assembled next year, and will be followed by another 12 in 2021, 2022, 2023, and 2024,” PAC chairman Air Marshall Ahmer Shahzad was quoted as saying by AINonline. We will assemble eight dual-seaters this year, followed by 14 in 2020, and the remaining four in 2021.”

PAC has reportedly been producing 58 percent of the JF-17s airframe and subsystems — the wings, horizontal tail, vertical tail, and forward fuselage — while CAC produces 42 percent of it including the mid- and rear- fuselages. The aircraft parts arrive from China in kit form for local assembly. PAC has an annual production capability of about 25 JF-17 aircraft.

The PAF has currently 85 JF-17 Block I and II operationally deployed, although, according to recent reporting by Flight Global, the PAF has 98 in-service JF-17s. That number that is slated to eventually expand to 112. The first PAF JF-17 squadron, consisting of 14 JF-17 Block I fighter aircraft, was established in 2010. The PAF currently has six operational squadrons.

The JF-17 war principally designed to replace the PAF’s aging fleet of Chengdu F-7 and Dassault Mirage III/5 fighter jets.

JF-17 Block I and II variants are powered by a Chinese license-built Klimov RD-93MA turbogan engine. Block III aircraft are expected to be receive the RD-93MA or Chinese WS-13 engine. As I explainedelsewhere:

F-17 Block III fighters will apparently receive a new electronic warfare system, upgraded avionics including a three-axis fly-by-wire digital flight control system, a helmet-mounted display and sight system, and Pakistan’s first Chinese-made active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar system. Two such radar systems are currently under evaluation, according to the PAF Air Chief: the Nanjing Research Institute of Electronics Technology’s KLJ-7A radar and the Leihua Electronic Technology Research Institute’s (LETRI) LKF601E. 

According to reporting by Alan Warnes, Leonardo’s Grifo-E AESA radar system is also“still on the table.”

The PAF also plans to field a two-seat trainer variant of the JF-17 aircraft, dubbed JF-17B. Next to the 50 JF-17 Block III aircraft, the service is expected to procure up to 26 of the two-seat version of the fighter jet.

The JF-17 also made its second appearance at this year’s Paris Air Show.

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## fatman17

Someone in the know tells me that JFTs 3 different blocks will have 3 dedicated roles. 
FGA 
POINT DEFENCE 
STRIKE ROLE

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## hassan1



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## Sunny4pak

*My tribute to Pakistan Air Force 2019.*






@Windjammer @Imran Khan @Zarvan @Quwa @hassan1 @fatman17 @TOPGUN

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## hassan1



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## Tank131

Can we envision a senario where the Grifo-E would actually win the PAF tender for JF-17? My understanding is that unless italy or china capitulate on allowing the other access to their own equipment to carry out integration, its not going to happen. I dont get (with such a large order) why Leonardo wouldnt allow the PAC to get enough access to allow them to integrate the weapons themselves.

That being said do we know much about the Grifo E, its specs, how it compares to the Chinese AESAs or even RAVEN ES-05?

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## MastanKhan

Tank131 said:


> Can we envision a senario where the Grifo-E would actually win the PAF tender for JF-17? My understanding is that unless italy or china capitulate on allowing the other access to their own equipment to carry out integration, its not going to happen. I dont get (with such a large order) why Leonardo wouldnt allow the PAC to get enough access to allow them to integrate the weapons themselves.
> 
> That being said do we know much about the Grifo E, its specs, how it compares to the Chinese AESAs or even RAVEN ES-05?



Hi,

Grifo might be the radar of choice for the JF17---.

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## Ali_Baba

A western variant of the JF17 equipped with the Grifo-E, supporting the Meteor and ASRAAM interlinked with the Erieyes is not out the question.. I hope it comes to pass!!! They will complement the F16s perfectly and totally mess up Indian tactics as countering the JF17 will become difficult as there will be 2 variants.. ie what jamming techniques to use, etc.

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## mingle

Ali_Baba said:


> A western variant of the JF17 equipped with the Grifo-E, supporting the Meteor and ASRAAM interlinked with the Erieyes is not out the question.. I hope it comes to pass!!! They will complement the F16s perfectly and totally mess up Indian tactics as countering the JF17 will become difficult as there will be 2 variants.. ie what jamming techniques to use, etc.


We should have Atleast two sqdn of these types extra punch and let Indians figure it out

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## FuturePAF

*Western and Turkish* equipped JF-17 might be a good alternative to the F-16 Block 70/72 as well. All the latest Western/Turkish sub-systems inside a standard looking JF-17 would definitely add confusion to the Indian war planners. It would also open up the European fighter/bomber munitions arms market to Pakistan, which will help add a bit of qualitative edge when it becomes available. This will also make the JF-17 ready for export to many more foreign customers, because we can show real planes equipped and employing either Chinese or Western or a mix of both systems.

We have to think beyond the mere platform, and think of how best to employ munitions and tactics. Brilliant idea to the OP who suggested it.

We just have to make it clear to the Italians that in order for us to buy the Grifo-E; we need *guaranteed access* to the* latest European weapons*, *Electronic Warfare equipment/Electronic Support Measures*, *the latest *communications equipment/*data links*, etc. and in sufficient numbers. We need to tie a deal with the sale of the *Meteor, Asraam, IRIS-T*, Spear 3, Scalp Missile, Pirate IRST or Skyward IRST if the Chinese equipped Block III will have an IRST, A GaN based DRFM Jammer

https://www.leonardocompany.com/en/products/compact-jamming-system

Towed Decoy
https://www.leonardocompany.com/en/products/ariel

BriteCloud DRFM Expendable Decoy
https://www.leonardocompany.com/en/products/britecloud-3

BriteEye Decoy
https://www.leonardocompany.com/en/products/brite-eye?f=/all-products

E-Scan IFF
https://www.leonardocompany.com/doc...6S_E_Scan_IFF_LQ_mm07523_.pdf?t=1538987653679

Praetorian Defensive Aids Sub-system
https://www.leonardocompany.com/en/products/praetorian-2?f=/all-products


*A Major capability we need to acquire from the Italians suppliers (based on their experience on the Eurofighter) is Avionics to enable true Sensor Fusion; a "5th Generation Capability"; fusing all the data from AWACS over Link 16, Other Fighters, your own Radar, EW Suite, IFF, and putting it all into one track. *

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c285/Scorpion82/EF technical/EF-Sensorfusion.jpg
http://rafalefan.e-monsite.com/medias/images/data-fusion.jpg

=========
We also need to find a way to integrate Turkish Sub-systems and Munitions with these Italian Sub-systems.

Aselsan Electronics Warfare Suite from the F-16 upgrade if they are better then the Italian or Chinese option
https://www.aselsan.com.tr/SPEWSII_EW_Self_Protection_Suite_2448.pdf

The Turkish BVR and WVR missiles should also be considered, depending on if they can be properly integrated into the European Radar selected. BVR Missile is the Bozgodan and the WVR missile is the Gokdogan.






The SOM Missile should also be considered, as it has already been a planned F-35 munition, and may already be an option for the European Radars.





========
Before committing to the Grifo-E we need to wait till the Turkish F-16 GaN Aesa is ready in 2020/2021, so that we can evaluate it.
http://www.f-16.net/forum/download/file.php?id=23044&sid=b9e3107a8fa8ff1511b0f735181fe55f&mode=view

========
We Also need to consider a few European Growler JF-17s; armed with a Raven ES-05/Vixen Radar or Turkish F-16 GaN radar. A small Fleet of 6-8 of these planes with the Latest European/Turkish Jamming Pods, along side 6-8 Chinese equipped JF-17 Growlers could add to the best of all suppliers. This would be another means to add qualitative capabilities.

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## Ali_Baba

Excellent post FuturePAF, i 1000% agree with you. It is no longer about the platform, but "systems of systems" to have an integrated platform.

This is something that the PAC Aviation City should work on, as integrators before cutting their teeth on something bigger like Azm (imho) as the new platform for a western JF17 can form the foundation of the avionics for Project Azm.

I do think(i like to think!! Optimistic me!!!), that is why Lenoardo has opened up an office in Pakistan.

The only firm requirement has to be is that it is ITAR free !!!!!!!

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## hassan1



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## fatman17

×
THE AVIATIONIST
theaviationist.com

Pakistani JF-17 Thunders and Turkish ELINT/SIGINT C-160D Transall Among The Highlights Of Anatolian Eagle Exercise
Pakistani JF-17 Thunders and Turkish ELINT/SIGINT C-160D Transall Among The Highlights Of Anatolian Eagle Exercise 

July 15, 2019 David Cenciotti



Pakistani Air Force JF-17 landing at the end of a mission (Image credit: Stephan De Bruijn)

Let’s have a look at Anatolian Eagle 2019 at Konya, Turkey.
Exercise Anatolian Eagle, is a very well-known series of exercises hosted by the Turkish Air Force held at the 3rd Main Jet Base – Konya, in central Anatolia, south of Ankara, Turkey.

It is inspired by the U.S. Red Flag and Maple Flag series and its goal is to train fighter pilots for the first few days of a modern conflict (its Greek counterpart is Ex. Iniochos – read here about the 2019 and 2018 edition of the drills held at Andravida AB, Greece).

The exercise provides the participating Turkish and foreign nations air forces an interesting opportunity to perform joint combat training in real-world scenarios that include Combined Air Operations (COMAOs) on tactical and strategic targets defended by Aggressors aircraft and Surface to Air Missile (SAM) threats of all types scattered across an airspace of 120 by 216 NM that allows some +60 aircraft to employ their tactics away from the effects of any (civilian or non AE traffic) around.


Pakistan Air Force JF-17s were among the highlights of AE19 mission. (All images credit: Stephan de Bruijn)
Konya is an important base, the headquarters of the Anatolian Eagle Training Center Command, that plans, organizes and conducts the AE drills and has the important role of testing and validating TuAF’s aircraft and units’ ability and preparedness for combat, establishing a background knowledge to achieve the military aims at war in the shortest time and with minimum effort. In simple words, Konya is where tactics are developed and put to test. Moreover, it hosts the 131 Filo, the squadron that operates the E-7T (B737AEW&C); 132 Filo that flies the F-16C/D Block 50; 135 Filo, equipped with AS532AL, CN235M-100 and UH-1H helicopters and it is the homebase of the Turkish Stars, the TuAF display team.


Turkish Viper with a 48th FW taking off in the background.
Since its establishment in 2001, 41 AE trainings have been performed. Through these years, fourteen countries and 33,000 personnel participated in AE. They brought some 2,000 aircraft to Turkey and generated some 24,000 sorties!

Our friend, journalist and photographer Stephan de Bruijn visited Konya last month, during the 2019 edition of Anatolian Eagle, that ran from Jun. 17 – 28.

“The objectives in AE 2019, were increasing the operational training level of the pilots and air defence personnel in a most realistic operational environment as well as developing joined and combined operational procedures,” he explained us. “The AETC trains the crew on such a way that a decrease of attritions during real combat missions will be realized, likewise there is a focus on an increase of mission effectiveness. Fighter pilots were given a chance to execute their planned tactics to employ in large force compositions. During AE19, 389 sorties were generated that included Close Air Support, Time Sensitive Targeting, Combat Search and Rescue, Ground Assisted Air Interdiction, Point Defense, Hostage Rescue, Casualty Evacuation, Infiltration/exfiltration, Offensive/Defensive Counter Air, Reconnaissance and Suppression of Enemy Air Defense.”


A Turkish F-4E 2020 taxies as a JF-17 takes off for a new AE19 mission.

This special colored F-4E celebrated the 60 years of service of the mighty Phantom.
During the two week exercise, the AETC provides a forum to the participants to exchange ideas and lessons learned.

“AE training will enhance the training level of the participants, by creating a realistic combat theatre within a specific scenario: “blue forces” conduct a combined air operation (COMAO) attack against targets on “red land” that is heavily defended by “red forces” that are equipped with Surface to Air Missile (SAM) systems, electronic warfare threat emitters and fighter aircraft that simulate red-air tactics.”


“Within the AE operations center, all COMAO aircraft, the red forces, involved Airborne Warning And Control Systems (AWACS) as well as ground systems and instructions of Ground Controlled Intercept operators can be visualized on real-time basis in a recognized air picture in the Air Combat Manoeuvring Instrumentation (ACMI) system. After the missions flown, though work for all people involved starts, the debrief in which post-mission assessments can be made in a realistic way. The AETC provides experienced instructors that assist in the debrief.”


An Italian Air Force AMX ACOL (piloted by a U.S. Air Force exchange pilot).
Anatolian Eagle 2019 saw participation of five JF-17 Thunders of 28sq of the Pakistan Air Force, three F-16AM/BM of 2sq of the Royal Jordanian Air Force, three AMX of the 51° Stormo (Wing), 132° Gruppo (Squadron) of the Italian Air Force, six F-15E Strike Eagles of the 494th Fighter Squadron belonging to the 48th Fighter Wing of the United States Air Force in Europe, a C-17A and a C-130J-30 of the 12th Transport Squadron of the Qatar Emiri Air Force and a NATO E-3A of the NATO Airborne Early Warning & Control Force. The host nation Turkey participated with six F-4E-2020 of 111 Filo, some twenty F-16C/D with markings of 113, 151 152, 161, 162, 182 and 193 Filo, an E-7T of 131 Filo, a C-130 of 222 Filo and very rarely seen ELINT/SIGINT C-160D of 221 Filo.


Four F-4Es in formation with the Turkish Stars display team.
Aircraft based at Konya itself but assigned to the exercise were a CN235 and AS532UL of 135 Filo, an E-7T of 131 Filo and some ten F-16C/Ds of 132 Filo. A KC-135A of 101 Filo operated out of homebase Incirlik. The Azerbaijan Air Force sent three military as observers.


A very rarely seen ELINT/SIGINT C-160D of 221 Filo.

A big “Thank you” to Stephan de Bruijn for providing text, images and details about AE19. Make sure you follow him on his Instagram account @stephan_debruijn too.

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## Tank131

As @FuturePAF comprehensively put it, there are many other issues to consider when declaring that PAF will go with radar a or b.

1. Weapons: beyond the a2a missiles, PAF has numerous strike weapons from glide bombs to ARM to AShM of chinese origin. Some are overcome by having other foreign options (MAR-1 ARM) while others have local counterparts (H2/H4, REKs) however, whatever the radar you must ensure proper munitions to be deployed with it which, if it is a european radar, means having 4 different supply chains for munitions (American for F-16, Chinese for block 1/2 JF-17, European for blk 3 and locally produced)

2. Other subsystems like ecm and eccm, dfrm, irst, hmd/s, and targeting pods all need to work with PAF weapons and the radar. You cannot get the grifo without making sure all of the above equipment is not only available to PAF, and affordable, but also will remain that way in times of conflict.

These are no small feet. If PAF DOES sort these things out and goes for the Grifo-E, then it would behoove them to get the LETRI LKF601E for the block 1s and 2s. Upgrade the weapons on all of these with PL-15, PL-10 Along with HMD/S. That enables you to quickly change your fighters over to more Chinese configuration on the fly in times of conflict in the event that europe embargoes PAFs weapons.

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## ghazi52

World Open Sailing Championship in Karachi from July 23

July 16, 2019








Pakistan Air Force will organise its 2nd Chief of the Air Staff International Open Sailing Championship-2019 in Karachi from 23rd of this month at PAF Korangi Creek.

Addressing a press conference in Karachi, Air Commodore Sabih Wali-ur-Rehman who is also President PAF Yacht Club said that as many as 16 countries including Pakistan Sailing Team have confirmed their participation with total 72 players including ladies/gents/optimist sailors would take part in the championship.

The championship will continue till 27th of this month.

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## Tank131

Kind of surprised that JF-17 is participating in exercises with USAF. The PAF must have significant confidence in it, especially if they are fielding it against F-15E. Beyond that, how cool is the pic if the F-4E sith the JF-17 taking off in the background!

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## FuturePAF

Tank131 said:


> Kind of surprised that JF-17 is participating in exercises with USAF. The PAF must have significant confidence in it, especially if they are fielding it against F-15E. Beyond that, how cool is the pic if the F-4E sith the JF-17 taking off in the background!



More like Dissimilar Combat training to refine the design for future Blocks. The JF-17 is a decent light fighter, that needs a few tricks up its sleeve to punch above its weight, because all is fair in love and war.

The IAF SU-30MKI experience showed data-links matter, tactics matter, and a decent knowledge of all potential adversaries and yourself. Air Combat really makes true the odd adage by Sun Tzu

“If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.”

-------
*PAF should at least equip some of the fleet with the Grifo-E radars, so PAF can participate in exercises with western equipped fighters without giving away the secrets of the Chinese radars.*

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## Tank131

FuturePAF said:


> More like Dissimilar Combat training to refine the design for future Blocks. The JF-17 is a decent light fighter, that needs a few tricks up its sleeve to punch above its weight, because all is fair in love and war.
> 
> The IAF SU-30MKI experience showed data-links matter, tactics matter, and a decent knowledge of all potential adversaries and yourself. Air Combat really makes true the odd adage by Sun Tzu
> 
> “If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.”
> 
> -------
> *PAF should at least equip some of the fleet with the Grifo-E radars, so PAF can participate in exercises with western equipped fighters without giving away the secrets of the Chinese radars.*



I dont disagree with equipping grifo on a sqn or 2, or even the entire block if the munitions and subsystem like DRFM, IRST, HMD/S etc arenall part of the package. Leonardo can deliver much of that but the munitions will require agreement from France and England in addition to Italy, and the IAF will also be operating Meteor on rafale so i doubt they will be too pleased if france agreed to the sale (which could endager rafales bid for an add on order)

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## araz

Tank131 said:


> I dont disagree with equipping grifo on a sqn or 2, or even the entire block if the munitions and subsystem like DRFM, IRST, HMD/S etc arenall part of the package. Leonardo can deliver much of that but the munitions will require agreement from France and England in addition to Italy, and the IAF will also be operating Meteor on rafale so i doubt they will be too pleased if france agreed to the sale (which could endager rafales bid for an add on order)


The price will increase horrendously. Secondly will Leonardo actually be able to provide the whole system? and the missiles?
Multiple armaments mean more headache of storage.
However I agree the idea is a good one even as a tech demonstrator to other parties who have reservations about Chinese equipment.
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## Tank131

araz said:


> The price will increase horrendously. Secondly will Leonardo actually be able to provide the whole system? and the missiles?
> Multiple armaments mean more headache of storage.
> However I agree the idea is a good one even as a tech demonstrator to other parties who have reservations about Chinese equipment.
> A


Which is exactly why I posted my original question regarding the actual likelihood that Leonardo could actually get the bid. If PAF is truly satisfied with chinese equipment and weapons, then personally, I dont thinkthere is much chance if any for the Grifo E. However if PAF is disappointed or dissatisfied with the performance of the KLJ-7 V2 or the SD-10, then Grifo has a good chance (expensive or not) but that will depend on them delivering on the other subsystems (which they can because they produce many of them in house) and the munitions (which is a more difficult task).

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## fatman17

PAF has a history of combining western suites on its Chinese origin aircraft. F6, F7 series and the retd A5s. F6 with the sidewinder was a lethal weapon against much superior aircraft. So why not continue that with the JF17, making it a more lethal aircraft.

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## FuturePAF

Tank131 said:


> I dont disagree with equipping grifo on a sqn or 2, or even the entire block if the munitions and subsystem like DRFM, IRST, HMD/S etc arenall part of the package. Leonardo can deliver much of that but the munitions will require agreement from France and England in addition to Italy, and the IAF will also be operating Meteor on rafale so i doubt they will be too pleased if france agreed to the sale (which could endager rafales bid for an add on order)



In for a penny in for a pound. The Indians wont have any other choice. They don't want to buy the F-16 (because "Abhi's Mig got it") and don't want to depend on the Americans. They also don't want Russian aircraft because they know their limitations. So they have to go European.

We need advanced sub-systems. Hopefully we wont have to buy 18 Eurofighters to sweeten the deal to ensure it. Hopefully the J-10CE avionics have sensor fusion and an advanced enough AESA.

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## aliyusuf

Having two different set of avionics suite and AESA radars on an otherwise outwardly the same JF-17, may present problems for enemy EW-Jammers and counter measures.

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## Tank131

aliyusuf said:


> Having two different set of avionics suite and AESA radars on an otherwise outwardly the same JF-17, may present problems for enemy EW-Jammers and counter measures.



I dont think that will be the case. Whichever radar is chosen will likely equip the whole block. With that being said, im hoping the PAF will have the $$ and foresight to upgrade all existing block 1 and 2 aircraft with LKF601E and give them the same HMD/S with upgraded munitions (pl-15 and pl-10). That will bring them to near blk 3 status and keep PAFs foot in the chinese electronics sector in the event tgat relations with europe breakdown during a conflict with India and they suspend the sale of parts and munitions (as france did to Argentina) that will allow blk 3 aircraft to quickly have their radars switched over to chinese systems and equip Pl-15/10 from existing stocks ensuring continuous operation.


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## Quwa

Tank131 said:


> Can we envision a senario where the Grifo-E would actually win the PAF tender for JF-17? My understanding is that unless italy or china capitulate on allowing the other access to their own equipment to carry out integration, its not going to happen. I dont get (with such a large order) why Leonardo wouldnt allow the PAC to get enough access to allow them to integrate the weapons themselves.
> 
> That being said do we know much about the Grifo E, its specs, how it compares to the Chinese AESAs or even RAVEN ES-05?


China/Italy/UK won't capitulate to sharing source codes.

If the Grifo-E wins the Block 3 tender, then it means that the PAF has secured a non-Chinese BVRAAM and AShM suite through Leonardo and MBDA. It can also point to the PAF working with a trusted 3rd party like South Africa or Turkey on their respective BVRAAM (Merlin and Marlin, respectively), but that'd be a stretch seeing how the PAF will often go for something that's available today than play around with prototyping et. al.

Basically, the PAF might be dangling the Block-3 to Leonardo as a means to get Leonardo (and the Italian and UK governments) to sell the MBDA Meteor. If you're going to have a world of confidence in the Block-3, then perhaps arming it with a known quantity like the Meteor will force the enemy to respect it.

BTW an embargo wouldn't be a major factor in war. The PAF will stock enough AAMs and AShMs for a wartime response regardless of whether they're from the West or China.

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## Beethoven

Quwa said:


> China/Italy/UK won't capitulate to sharing source codes.
> 
> If the Grifo-E wins the Block 3 tender, then it means that the PAF has secured a non-Chinese BVRAAM and AShM suite through Leonardo and MBDA. It can also point to the PAF working with a trusted 3rd party like South Africa or Turkey on their respective BVRAAM (Merlin and Marlin, respectively), but that'd be a stretch seeing how the PAF will often go for something that's available today than play around with prototyping et. al.
> 
> Basically, the PAF might be dangling the Block-3 to Leonardo as a means to get Leonardo (and the Italian and UK governments) to sell the MBDA Meteor. If you're going to have a world of confidence in the Block-3, then perhaps arming it with a known quantity like the Meteor will force the enemy to respect it.
> 
> BTW an embargo wouldn't be a major factor in war. The PAF will stock enough AAMs and AShMs for a wartime response regardless of whether they're from the West or China.


Wont that put us at a disadvantage....i mean the Indians are arming Rafales with Meteor which means they will have an idea about the BVRAAM Block 3 is going to field...

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## Quwa

Beethoven said:


> Wont that put us at a disadvantage....i mean the Indians are arming Rafales with Meteor which means they will have an idea about the BVRAAM Block 3 is going to field....wont that put us at a disadvantage????


Sometimes the threat you understand is more serious than something that might or might not be as threatening.

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## Beethoven

Quwa said:


> Sometimes the threat you understand is more serious than something that might or might not be as threatening.


I still feel we should keep our abilities classified....giving ur enemy an idea about ur strength will provide him with the techniques to counter ur strength


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## Ali_Baba

Quwa said:


> China/Italy/UK won't capitulate to sharing source codes.
> 
> If the Grifo-E wins the Block 3 tender, then it means that the PAF has secured a non-Chinese BVRAAM and AShM suite through Leonardo and MBDA. It can also point to the PAF working with a trusted 3rd party like South Africa or Turkey on their respective BVRAAM (Merlin and Marlin, respectively), but that'd be a stretch seeing how the PAF will often go for something that's available today than play around with prototyping et. al.
> 
> Basically, the PAF might be dangling the Block-3 to Leonardo as a means to get Leonardo (and the Italian and UK governments) to sell the MBDA Meteor. If you're going to have a world of confidence in the Block-3, then perhaps arming it with a known quantity like the Meteor will force the enemy to respect it.
> 
> BTW an embargo wouldn't be a major factor in war. The PAF will stock enough AAMs and AShMs for a wartime response regardless of whether they're from the West or China.



I agree, having a block of JF17s with the Grifo-E (or other Lenardo radar) with Meteror, ASRAAM will bring the JF17 platform on par with the Rafale as far as the Air-to-Air role is concerned and will serve as a deterrent. 

This is nothing to stop PAF ordering 50x Block III with Chinese avionics/AESA, and another 50x Block III with Western systems, making a final tally of 200 odd JF17s and then moving the focus to Azm project.



Quwa said:


> Sometimes the threat you understand is more serious than something that might or might not be as threatening.



I agree !!! Indians will understand the capability of the Meteor and will respect its deterrence capabilities. The whole purpose is to deter.. not to start the war, etc.

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## aliyusuf

aliyusuf said:


> Having two different set of avionics suite and AESA radars on an otherwise outwardly the same JF-17, may present problems for enemy EW-Jammers and counter measures.


That is why I suggested, a few posts earlier, that we should keep a mix of both technologies. This way, we will keep the enemy guessing about which avionics & weapons technology mix they are up against in an encounter.

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## Quwa

Beethoven said:


> I still feel we should keep our abilities classified....giving ur enemy an idea about ur strength will provide him with the techniques to counter ur strength


As @Ali_Baba said, the PAF can do that by equipping the Block 1 and/or Block 2 with the LKF601E (and use new Chinese AAMs and AShMs with them).

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

I stated a few days ago---.

The Radar on the JF 17 is heading towards the Italian manufacturer---.

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## Beethoven

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I stated a few days ago---.
> 
> The Radar on the JF 17 is heading towards the Italian manufacturer---.


Your thoughts sir on the possible acquistion of Meteor and IRIS T by the PAF to equip the Block 3...

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## denel

Quwa said:


> China/Italy/UK won't capitulate to sharing source codes.
> 
> If the Grifo-E wins the Block 3 tender, then it means that the PAF has secured a non-Chinese BVRAAM and AShM suite through Leonardo and MBDA. It can also point to the PAF working with a trusted 3rd party like South Africa or Turkey on their respective BVRAAM (Merlin and Marlin, respectively), but that'd be a stretch seeing how the PAF will often go for something that's available today than play around with prototyping et. al.
> 
> Basically, the PAF might be dangling the Block-3 to Leonardo as a means to get Leonardo (and the Italian and UK governments) to sell the MBDA Meteor. If you're going to have a world of confidence in the Block-3, then perhaps arming it with a known quantity like the Meteor will force the enemy to respect it.
> 
> BTW an embargo wouldn't be a major factor in war. The PAF will stock enough AAMs and AShMs for a wartime response regardless of whether they're from the West or China.


Yes but if we see it from overall prespective putting in Grifo will cause more challenges as you have to go back to the drawing board which seperates blk1/2 from 3. All upgrade paths for each plus weapon systems will be seperated with seperate maintenance streams.
While it will definitely provide diversity, it may be more trouble than worth it.

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## Tank131

Again, it will require more than just the munitions, but also the irst, and HMD/S at least. Also possiblly a dfrm.

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## Chak Bamu

JF-17 is not Rafale. Having similar missiles would put JF-17 at a disadvantage (RCS, # of missiles, Grifo-E radar range, etc...). Its best to equip it with something that keeps the enemy guessing. If PL-15 is available to PAF, its best to base JF-17 Block III BVR capability on it.

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## alimobin memon

Ali_Baba said:


> I agree, having a block of JF17s with the Grifo-E (or other Lenardo radar) with Meteror, ASRAAM will bring the JF17 platform on par with the Rafale as far as the Air-to-Air role is concerned and will serve as a deterrent.
> 
> This is nothing to stop PAF ordering 50x Block III with Chinese avionics/AESA, and another 50x Block III with Western systems, making a final tally of 200 odd JF17s and then moving the focus to Azm project.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree !!! Indians will understand the capability of the Meteor and will respect its deterrence capabilities. The whole purpose is to deter.. not to start the war, etc.


Grifo E range is an issue 90km for 5m^2 if im not wrong ?

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## Tank131

alimobin memon said:


> Grifo E range is an issue 90km for 5m^2 if im not wrong ?


I would highly doubt that. The grifo s had a 92km range. No way PAF would go for a 90km AESA. Especially when the KLJ-7V1 had 105 and v2 has 130km range.

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## alimobin memon

Tank131 said:


> I would highly doubt that. The grifo s had a 92km range. No way PAF would go for a 90km AESA. Especially when the KLJ-7V1 had 105 and v2 has 130km range.


brochures are showing that. That's why I am confused.

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## Tank131

alimobin memon said:


> brochures are showing that. That's why I am confused.


The brochure from Leonardo shows the Track range for a fighter sized aircraft is 40-75 NM (74-139KM). The lookup detection range is 40-85NM (74-158km).
It is a low powered air or liquid cooled GaN bases radar. Doesnt seem to have the range of the KLJ-7A or LKF601E but by only 12km. Furthermore like the LKF601E it can be air cooled and being that it is GaN based, draws less power meaning they can even be offered for older airframes.

Keep in mind, the APG-68(V)9 has a lookup detection range of 105km for a fighter sized aircraft, the RBE2-AA (Rafale) has a detection range of 75NM (139KM) for a fighter sized AC, theAPG-83 has a fighter detection range of 120km, so these ranges are quite good for the size of the radars

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## denel

Tank131 said:


> I would highly doubt that. The grifo s had a 92km range. No way PAF would go for a 90km AESA. Especially when the KLJ-7V1 had 105 and v2 has 130km range.


yes correct. the challenge with most chinese metrics - one has to take them with a pinch of salt; they have a bad habit of exagerating.

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## alimobin memon

Tank131 said:


> The brochure from Leonardo shows the Track range for a fighter sized aircraft is 40-75 NM (74-139KM). The lookup detection range is 40-85NM (74-158km).
> It is a low powered air or liquid cooled GaN bases radar. Doesnt seem to have the range of the KLJ-7A or LKF601E but by only 12km. Furthermore like the LKF601E it can be air cooled and being that it is GaN based, draws less power meaning they can even be offered for older airframes.
> 
> Keep in mind, the APG-68(V)9 has a lookup detection range of 105km for a fighter sized aircraft, the RBE2-AA (Rafale) has a detection range of 75NM (139KM) for a fighter sized AC, theAPG-83 has a fighter detection range of 120km, so these ranges are quite good for the size of the radars


Than it means radar wise jf17 can be up to par with rafale. But buying western radar might mean having its info in wrong end italy can sell its weaknesses with india ? I may be wrong


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## MastanKhan

denel said:


> yes correct. the challenge with most chinese metrics - one has to take them with a pinch of salt; they have a bad habit of exagerating.



Hi,

A fighter aircraft is as strong as its weakest link---ie the radar---the EW package---the weapons---.

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## Tank131

I agree with @denel that the listed specs for Chinese equipment may not always be reliable. This can be for any numver of reasons from a lack of coordination between the technical and sales/pr staff to hiding the real capabilities (better or worse) from the real world. That being said, whatever the real specs, i am certain PAF is NOT going to pick a radar based on its brochures. It is likely fully aware of both the strengths and weaknesses of the system. It will pick them on 3 things, capabilities, cost, and subsystems/munition availability.

From the end of capabilities, ranges are likely similar (+/- 10-15km) but we dont know the other details if them like which has better ecm/eccm etc. My suspicion is that the chinese radar has more range by a bit but the other capabilities are likely in the favor of the Grifo by a bit. It will come down to cost and availability of the subsystems and munitions.

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## FuturePAF

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> An fighter aircraft is as strong as its weakest link---ie the radar---the EW package---the weapons---.



Sensor Fusion is also crucial for faster OODA loop decision making. Too much useless information can also give the pilot phantom returns to chase, and get lost in the reeds hunting ghosts.

The PAF needs to aim to make the JF-17 match the Gripen as closely as possible, and if the PAF goers for the J-10CE; it will need to get CAC to build it up to the level of the Eurofighter Tranche 4; Leading in Sensor Fusion, EW, ECM/ECCM, Datalinks, the best algorithms and waveforms fort the AESA radar, and cutting edge munitions.

If PAF can commit itself to procuring 102 J-10CE (6 Squadrons), it can set up a second production line at Kamra, benefiting from the economies of scale, and get the ToT to maintain and upgrade the jet itself. It will really help towards practically advancing project AZM; as the J-10CE and its engine are in the weight class of the single engine Project AZM.

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## Chak Bamu

FuturePAF said:


> If PAF can commit itself to procuring 102 J-10CE (6 Squadrons), it can set up a second production line at Kamra, benefiting from the economies of scale, and get the ToT to maintain and upgrade the jet itself.



Two production lines is a pipe dream - not gonna happen any time soon. Pakistan needs GDP growth of more than 6% for a decade before such thoughts are practically realized.

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## fatman17

Squadron leader Saira Amin :
She is one of the female pilots of Pakistan Airforce who made the history. She was awarded by Sword of honour in Pakistan airforce academy. https://t.co/zJ1SGA56iT

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## araz

Chak Bamu said:


> Two production lines is a pipe dream - not gonna happen any time soon. Pakistan needs GDP growth of more than 6% for a decade before such thoughts are practically realized.


I do wonder whether there would be a side by side production of pr. Azm and JFT.
With J10 we will probably get depot level maintenance and overhauling rights for WS10. Anything more for 40 odd planes would be too much to ask.
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## Chak Bamu

Hush Kit interview of JF-17 pilot is a treat to read. 

https://hushkit.net/

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## Tank131

Chak Bamu said:


> Hush Kit interview of JF-17 pilot is a treat to read.
> 
> https://hushkit.net/


Really good find! I think the big take away is that the pilots seem to live the aircraft although they seem to have very specific constructive criticisms which are likely to be addressed with continually upgrading the aircraft (most specifically wanting more powerful engine and more BVR missiles). And second, it seems PAF is operating the CM-400AKG

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## Armchair

The radar is not as big a problem as we imagine vis-a-vis integration. The JFT is designed in such a way that the radar plugs into something like a "CPU" and this "CPU" can handle other weapons and items, and use data from the radar to target them. 

It is very easy for PAF to integrate Chinese and Russian missiles on the same aircraft. Possibly even European missiles if those missiles can do a handshake with the "CPU".


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## MastanKhan

FuturePAF said:


> Sensor Fusion is also crucial for faster OODA loop decision making. Too much useless information can also give the pilot phantom returns to chase, and get lost in the reeds hunting ghosts.
> 
> The PAF needs to aim to make the JF-17 match the Gripen as closely as possible, and if the PAF goers for the J-10CE; it will need to get CAC to build it up to the level of the Eurofighter Tranche 4; Leading in Sensor Fusion, EW, ECM/ECCM, Datalinks, the best algorithms and waveforms fort the AESA radar, and cutting edge munitions.
> 
> If PAF can commit itself to procuring 102 J-10CE (6 Squadrons), it can set up a second production line at Kamra, benefiting from the economies of scale, and get the ToT to maintain and upgrade the jet itself. It will really help towards practically advancing project AZM; as the J-10CE and its engine are in the weight class of the single engine Project AZM.



Hi,

This was discussed here years ago---.

It is already in place for over half a decade---.

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## Quwa

denel said:


> Yes but if we see it from overall prespective putting in Grifo will cause more challenges as you have to go back to the drawing board which seperates blk1/2 from 3. All upgrade paths for each plus weapon systems will be seperated with seperate maintenance streams.
> While it will definitely provide diversity, it may be more trouble than worth it.


It depends on whether the PAF is viewing the Block 3 in the same continuity as the Block 1 & 2. 

As I said earlier, the existing JF-17s can and will keep using the Chinese AAM/AShMs, and the PAF will need a munitions set with the Blk-3 anyways. 

The advantage of going Chinese all the way is that that the newer Chinese AAMs can make their way to the older JF-17s. But any initial order of new Chinese AAMs (or if Grifo-E is bought, Western) will start with focusing on just the Block 3, and they can expand if and when the Block 1/2s are upgraded. 

Still, upgrades an open question; the PAF can do it, but you're looking at taking a lot of planes out of the front to run the upgrade, and the airframes will be old by that point (late 2020s/early 2030s). The best course may just be to replace old JF-17s with new ones -- i.e., keep existing ones as they are. 

Hopefully by the late 2020s/early 2030s this integration question will end ... Project Azm should lead to indigenously manufactured AAMs by that point.

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## Tank131

Quwa said:


> It depends on whether the PAF is viewing the Block 3 in the same continuity as the Block 1 & 2.
> 
> As I said earlier, the existing JF-17s can and will keep using the Chinese AAM/AShMs, and the PAF will need a munitions set with the Blk-3 anyways.
> 
> The advantage of going Chinese all the way is that that the newer Chinese AAMs can make their way to the older JF-17s. But any initial order of new Chinese AAMs (or if Grifo-E is bought, Western) will start with focusing on just the Block 3, and they can expand if and when the Block 1/2s are upgraded.
> 
> Still, upgrades an open question; the PAF can do it, but you're looking at taking a lot of planes out of the front to run the upgrade, and the airframes will be old by that point (late 2020s/early 2030s). The best course may just be to replace old JF-17s with new ones -- i.e., keep existing ones as they are.
> 
> Hopefully by the late 2020s/early 2030s this integration question will end ... Project Azm should lead to indigenously manufactured AAMs by that point.




I think this is one of the very few areas where i dont agree with you. The cost of refurbishing an aircraft is significantly less than building a new airframe. For PAF they can achieve near block 3 potential from block 1 and 2 by changing out the radars of aircraft for LKF601E or Grifo if they choose to go that route. Add in the HMD/S and you have, from an offensive standpoint, near the capability of a block 3 (minus probably some of the ECM/ECCM advancements). Additionally, if they choose to go with a new engine, the Blk 1/2s will be structurally able to house both RD-93MA and WS-13 so there is not much from a structural standpoint except a refurbish at 20yrs and at 30 if necessary you can do a rebuild or replace them at that point. If you marry these to PL-15 and PL-10 they will be nearly as potent as tge blk 3,certainly in the a2a realm.

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## Quwa

Tank131 said:


> I think this is one of the very few areas where i dont agree with you. The cost of refurbishing an aircraft is significantly less than building a new airframe. For PAF they can achieve near block 3 potential from block 1 and 2 by changing out the radars of aircraft for LKF601E or Grifo if they choose to go that route. Add in the HMD/S and you have, from an offensive standpoint, near the capability of a block 3 (minus probably some of the ECM/ECCM advancements). Additionally, if they choose to go with a new engine, the Blk 1/2s will be structurally able to house both RD-93MA and WS-13 so there is not much from a structural standpoint except a refurbish at 20yrs and at 30 if necessary you can do a rebuild or replace them at that point. If you marry these to PL-15 and PL-10 they will be nearly as potent as tge blk 3,certainly in the a2a realm.


Re: the airframe it depends.

If we look at it from the PoV of Western aircraft, i.e., high materials sourcing, labour and production costs, then yes, you're definitely correct (hence the $100 m F-16). However, those costs aren't as high with the Chinese, and the JF-17 sits in a cost tier beneath the J-10C and J-11, so its airframe is even cheaper. 

Moreover, the JF-17 airframe was designed for 15-20 years (as per PAF officials on numerous occasions), so I don't think the gap between extending the life for another 10 years and replacing the fighter is that much. 

So let's say a new-built airframe is like $15 m (minus the electronics). And let's say a structural refresh for another 10 years is $5 m (very liberal estimate, I don't even the UP/STAR for the F-16 cost that little). From that PoV, you'd be right, a refresh is 33% the cost of a new airframe. 

But there's more to a fighter than that. 

The electronics (incl. radar, avionics, etc) are all imported, and they'll command like 30-40% of the total cost no matter if you go for a new airframe or an old one. The % will likely spike to 50% if we go European. And it's fixed no matter if you upgrade or build new, it's the same radar, mission systems, etc. 

So a new JF-17 will cost $25 m, while a refurbished JF-17 (minus 3-axis FBW, more hardpoints, more internal fuel room, etc of the Block-3 line mind you) is $15 m, and it only has another 10 years of life vs. 15-20+ years of the Block-3. 

At that point, you have to ask if the $10 m savings is really worth it.

You can either keep refreshing an antiquated airframe (so fly the Block 1 frame into the 2030s/2040s) or just delay the inevitable of replacing it with a Block-3 (or -4 or later).

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## Tank131

In


Quwa said:


> Re: the airframe it depends.
> 
> If we look at it from the PoV of Western aircraft, i.e., high materials sourcing, labour and production costs, then yes, you're definitely correct (hence the $100 m F-16). However, those costs aren't as high with the Chinese, and the JF-17 sits in a cost tier beneath the J-10C and J-11, so its airframe is even cheaper.
> 
> Moreover, the JF-17 airframe was designed for 15-20 years (as per PAF officials on numerous occasions), so I don't think the gap between extending the life for another 10 years and replacing the fighter is that much.
> 
> So let's say a new-built airframe is like $15 m (minus the electronics). And let's say a structural refresh for another 10 years is $5 m (very liberal estimate, I don't even the UP/STAR for the F-16 cost that little). From that PoV, you'd be right, a refresh is 33% the cost of a new airframe.
> 
> But there's more to a fighter than that.
> 
> The electronics (incl. radar, avionics, etc) are all imported, and they'll command like 30-40% of the total cost no matter if you go for a new airframe or an old one. The % will likely spike to 50% if we go European. And it's fixed no matter if you upgrade or build new, it's the same radar, mission systems, etc.
> 
> So a new JF-17 will cost $25 m, while a refurbished JF-17 (minus 3-axis FBW, more hardpoints, more internal fuel room, etc of the Block-3 line mind you) is $15 m, and it only has another 10 years of life vs. 15-20+ years of the Block-3.
> 
> At that point, you have to ask if the $10 m savings is really worth it.
> 
> You can either keep refreshing an antiquated airframe (so fly the Block 1 frame into the 2030s/2040s) or just delay the inevitable of replacing it with a Block-3 (or -4 or later).


You raise some good points but i think we would need to examine the quality of the airframe at the time, furthermore need to have clear cost estimates. My suspicion is the answer will be somewhere in the middle of our two positions. After all, even F-7 is flying 30 years and their standards are far less than JF-17. Not i want thunders falling from the sky like that, but we would need tonsee the cost/benefit. You may be right in the end.

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## Quwa

Tank131 said:


> In
> 
> You raise some good points but i think we would need to examine the quality of the airframe at the time, furthermore need to have clear cost estimates. My suspicion is the answer will be somewhere in the middle of our two positions. After all, even F-7 is flying 30 years and their standards are far less than JF-17. Not i want thunders falling from the sky like that, but we would need tonsee the cost/benefit. You may be right in the end.


Yup, but bear in mind, the PAF is extending the F-7Ps to keep flying them, there are no upgrades on the horizon.

If we're just talking about keeping the Block-1 and Block-2 as they are, then yes I agree, the PAF can certainly run a structural re-fresh and keep flying them as-is. That's a likely scenario, but in that case, there's no issue with the munitions as the PAF can keep using its SD-10 and C-802 stocks. 

The question is whether it's feasible to do a structural refresh + radar & avionics upgrade, or to eventually just fly the Block-1/2s out and replace them with Block-3/4 in the 2030/2040 timeframe.


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## FuturePAF

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> This was discussed here years ago---.
> 
> It is already in place for over half a decade---.



Any Details? Could you provide the link. Has the PAf implemented actual sensor fusion?; where only one track appears on the screen, but an integrator module or piece of software blends the tracks from the radar, IFF, MAWS, etc.


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## Tank131

@MastanKhan im not entirely sure to what you are referring. I certainly didnt take your material, but i think you and I are usually on the same page. That being said, @Bilal Khan (Quwa) if the point is that they can keep the airframe airworthy, why then would you not chamge the sensors when you have to the means. You are talking about $10M dollars difference to replace 1 airframe vs refurbish and upgrade. It. Now multiply that by 112 airframes. To me, if you can MLU the block 1 and 2s you save $1.12Bln, but my suspicion is the difference will be more than that. But again that may not necessarily be worth it to PAF vs new builds.

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## MastanKhan

FuturePAF said:


> Any Details? Could you provide the link. Has the PAf implemented actual sensor fusion?; where only one track appears on the screen, but an integrator module or piece of software blends the tracks from the radar, IFF, MAWS, etc.



Hi,

The posts are here on the forum---over 5 years old---discussing all aspects of data link etc etc etc---making a functional unit like the Grippen NG---.

Now you bring up info of one function at a time this this and that---acting in this this & that manner---.

Now if the Grippen NG had all those functions---then please consider them covered---because the JF17 is based on the Grippen NG design function & utility---.

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## messiach

All credit to you Khan Sahib.


MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Jul 3, 2019#32
> 
> This cost of new vs re-furbishing---I brought out a couple of three weeks ago---where @messiach asked me how I got to the $30 mil or $35 mil for a BLK3 JF17---.
> 
> I had suggested that it might be feasible to upgrade the aircraft because the newer one would be pretty cheap---.
> 
> So---please---guys---if your guys are using my posts---please give me credit for that---if it is your original idea and you claim that you have not read my 3 weeks old post---I won't argue---.
> 
> But it is happening more often than not---.
> 
> Posters are becoming Defense Analysts Defense writers on stealing my material---and material from this website---.
> 
> Please confront and stop these guys---if they take it from the forum---they need to give credit to it.

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## GriffinsRule

So the Mirages of the 1960s vintage can fly with the PAF for 50+ years of frontline service, yet a plane designed in the 90s and produced in the 2000s is only good for 20? If that were the case, why even bother with creating a facility to fully overhaul the jet? JF-17's existing airframes will be in service for a long time to come, and easily double the service life then the 15-20 year estimates. The first jets that were manufactured are just starting to go through overhaul now after about 10 years of service. If the 15-20 years contention is correct, its implying that they will be only overhauled once in their life. We all know how many times F-6, F-7s and Mirages have gone through major overhauls to know PAF will not be throwing away its newest jets.

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## Sinnerman108

GriffinsRule said:


> So the Mirages of the 1960s vintage can fly with the PAF for 50+ years of frontline service, yet a plane designed in the 90s and produced in the 2000s is only good for 20? If that were the case, why even bother with creating a facility to fully overhaul the jet? JF-17's existing airframes will be in service for a long time to come, and easily double the service life then the 15-20 year estimates. The first jets that were manufactured are just starting to go through overhaul now after about 10 years of service. If the 15-20 years contention is correct, its implying that they will be only overhauled once in their life. We all know how many times F-6, F-7s and Mirages have gone through major overhauls to know PAF will not be throwing away its newest jets.



Not really,
Even if the air-frame remains worthy, the plane maybe useless
due to technological advancements and survival requirements.

How wise would it be to fly the JF when operational theater consists of 5G+ and stealth with engines 
producing more thrust than weight ?

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## MastanKhan

GriffinsRule said:


> So the Mirages of the 1960s vintage can fly with the PAF for 50+ years of frontline service, yet a plane designed in the 90s and produced in the 2000s is only good for 20? If that were the case, why even bother with creating a facility to fully overhaul the jet? JF-17's existing airframes will be in service for a long time to come, and easily double the service life then the 15-20 year estimates. The first jets that were manufactured are just starting to go through overhaul now after about 10 years of service. If the 15-20 years contention is correct, its implying that they will be only overhauled once in their life. We all know how many times F-6, F-7s and Mirages have gone through major overhauls to know PAF will not be throwing away its newest jets.



Hi,

The 60's mirages fly for 50 years is because of the refurbishment of whole of the aircraft frame upwards---.

We are operating them because they still are an excellent platform for the job that they can do and the duties that they can perform---.

They still are an excellent strike platform for ground and naval targets---.

As we have all the facilities to upgrade these aircraft---it costs us a minsicule amount to have a working strike aircraft than can carry 2 anti ship missiles---.

We have a plethora of slightly or mildly used mirage 3 & 5's---we have a lots of brand new engines and some slightly used engines as well---and we can overhaul these engines as good as new---.

So again---this aircraft's primary use is strike---and some for recon---and for these missions---you do not need a top notch aircraft---you need a functional aircraft---.

Now for the JF17---its cost is cheap---because of our cheap labor---. The lockmart engineer makes in one day that our engineer makes it in one month as salary---.

Our technician's salary of one month is that of one days salary of a tech at lockmart---.

The JF17 is our most modern frontline aircraft---. For the cost ratio to a similarly capable foreign aircraft to the life of the aircraft---we still come out way ahead---. 

Life cyclce is very important for a major weapons system---but what is more important is what it can do for you when you go to war---remember that is what is its primary function---fighting capability---.

Now knowing that we can life cycle upgrade it in 15 years---it gives us a bigger advantage---we will have a more modern aircraft in our hands in the 15th-16th year than as compared to 25-30 years upgrade---.

Next---once the JF17 reaches the BLK design stability in the BLK3 or BLK 4---we are much better off replacing the older blocks with newer ones---because we get the most modern weapons and electronics warfare systems available to us---.

By that time---the life cycle of our aircraft would also have increased by default---why---because as this is one pf the major builds by us and our allies---we will learn what needs to be done to make it a 30 or a 40 year life aircraft---.

Rome was not built in a day---.

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## syed_yusuf

The time is ripe to standardize mirage fleet for better operations, training, delivery and punch 

The time is now to have rose 5 for mirage 5


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## GriffinsRule

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The 60's mirages fly for 50 years is because of the refurbishment of whole of the aircraft frame upwards---.
> 
> We are operating them because they still are an excellent platform for the job that they can do and the duties that they can perform---.
> 
> They still are an excellent strike platform for ground and naval targets---.
> 
> As we have all the facilities to upgrade these aircraft---it costs us a minsicule amount to have a working strike aircraft than can carry 2 anti ship missiles---.
> 
> We have a plethora of slightly or mildly used mirage 3 & 5's---we have a lots of brand new engines and some slightly used engines as well---and we can overhaul these engines as good as new---.
> 
> So again---this aircraft's primary use is strike---and some for recon---and for these missions---you do not need a top notch aircraft---you need a functional aircraft---.
> 
> Now for the JF17---its cost is cheap---because of our cheap labor---. The lockmart engineer makes in one day that our engineer makes it in one month as salary---.
> 
> Our technician's salary of one month is that of one days salary of a tech at lockmart---.
> 
> The JF17 is our most modern frontline aircraft---. For the cost ratio to a similarly capable foreign aircraft to the life of the aircraft---we still come out way ahead---.
> 
> Life cyclce is very important for a major weapons system---but what is more important is what it can do for you when you go to war---remember that is what is its primary function---fighting capability---.
> 
> Now knowing that we can life cycle upgrade it in 15 years---it gives us a bigger advantage---we will have a more modern aircraft in our hands in the 15th-16th year than as compared to 25-30 years upgrade---.
> 
> Next---once the JF17 reaches the BLK design stability in the BLK3 or BLK 4---we are much better off replacing the older blocks with newer ones---because we get the most modern weapons and electronics warfare systems available to us---.
> 
> By that time---the life cycle of our aircraft would also have increased by default---why---because as this is one pf the major builds by us and our allies---we will learn what needs to be done to make it a 30 or a 40 year life aircraft---.
> 
> Rome was not built in a day---.



So you are implying that the life cycle for the JF-17 is only 15 years and that according to you we should see the first JF-17s to be retiring by 2024. How you got the 15 year lifespan, I am not sure, but 5 years is not that far ahead so we will know soon enough.

PS, the fact is Pakistan only builds 58% of the airframe, where the lower cost of labor comes in handy. It does not apply to the rest of the parts sourced from Russia and China so I think the cost-benefit you guys are doing probably has some holes in it as well.

Second, given that PAF will be starting to retire its Mirages around 2025 timeframe, and we have a lot of them in the inventory to replace, it is completely out of the realm of possibility that Pakistan is going to be replacing not just the F-7s, but the Mirages as well ALONG with the JF-17 at the same time. Its simply not going to happen.



Sinnerman108 said:


> Not really,
> Even if the air-frame remains worthy, the plane maybe useless
> due to technological advancements and survival requirements.
> 
> How wise would it be to fly the JF when operational theater consists of 5G+ and stealth with engines
> producing more thrust than weight ?



Are you talking about 2025 or 2055? 
If 2025, then it would be very wise to be flying the JF-17, You can probably figure out yourself a rough estimate of how many 5th Gen aircraft will be flying in the subcontinent even in the next two decades. Your comment can be applied to say, F-7PG for example, but if your contention that the Block 1 and 2 versions of JF-17 will be useless in the next 5 years due to technological advancements, you are incorrect.

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## MastanKhan

GriffinsRule said:


> So you are implying that the life cycle for the JF-17 is only 15 years and that according to you we should see the first JF-17s to be retiring by 2024. How you got the 15 year lifespan, I am not sure, but 5 years is not that far ahead so we will know soon enough.
> 
> PS, the fact is Pakistan only builds 58% of the airframe, where the lower cost of labor comes in handy. It does not apply to the rest of the parts sourced from Russia and China so I think the cost-benefit you guys are doing probably has some holes in it as well.
> 
> Second, given that PAF will be starting to retire its Mirages around 2025 timeframe, and we have a lot of them in the inventory to replace, it is completely out of the realm of possibility that Pakistan is going to be replacing not just the F-7s, but the Mirages as well ALONG with the JF-17 at the same time. Its simply not going to happen.
> 
> 
> 
> Are you talking about 2025 or 2055?
> If 2025, then it would be very wise to be flying the JF-17, You can probably figure out yourself a rough estimate of how many 5th Gen aircraft will be flying in the subcontinent even in the next two decades. Your comment can be applied to say, F-7PG for example, but if your contention that the Block 1 and 2 versions of JF-17 will be useless in the next 5 years due to technological advancements, you are incorrect.




Hi,

I am not saying much---only that the first upgrade is around 10 years---.


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## Thorough Pro

Same as now with 50 year old Mirages and F7's




Sinnerman108 said:


> Not really,
> Even if the air-frame remains worthy, the plane maybe useless
> due to technological advancements and survival requirements.
> 
> *How wise would it be to fly the JF when operational theater consists of 5G+* and stealth with engines
> producing more thrust than weight ?


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## Tank131

Speaking of sensor fusion, i wonder if anyone has looked at a defensive drown swarm. We all know about their potential use in offense to both confuse an enemies networks and overwhem air defenses, but what about a defensive swarm. It would be a interesting idea for a nation like Pakistan who is trying to find an impenetrable defensive posture with just the right amount of offense to keep its neighborhood behaving well.

The idea is to stick radars on drones (for example, having small radars with say 50km ranges and datalinks allowing ground controllers to operate like AWAC controls. Other drones would be in the air with EW pods similar to growlers at various frequencies. This would cause havoc and blinding of any attacking force while leaving PAF with strong, multi-tiered situational awareness with AWACS, fighters, drones, and ground radar all datalinked into one network.

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## Armchair

The older JFTs can be relegated to strike or CAS. Or refurbished and sold to Third World countries.

The psyche of a fighter plane building country is very different from the psyche of a fighter plane buying country. We have to psychologically evolve to that psyche. 

Replace "fighter plane" above with "tank", "car" or "ship" and you have the same issue at play.



Tank131 said:


> Speaking of sensor fusion, i wonder if anyone has looked at a defensive drown swarm. We all know about their potential use in offense to both confuse an enemies networks and overwhem air defenses, but what about a defensive swarm. It would be a interesting idea for a nation like Pakistan who is trying to find an impenetrable defensive posture with just the right amount of offense to keep its neighborhood behaving well.
> 
> The idea is to stick radars on drones (for example, having small radars with say 50km ranges and datalinks allowing ground controllers to operate like AWAC controls. Other drones would be in the air with EW pods similar to growlers at various frequencies. This would cause havoc and blinding of any attacking force while leaving PAF with strong, multi-tiered situational awareness with AWACS, fighters, drones, and ground radar all datalinked into one network.



Hi, you may find this interesting: https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/ucavs-the-future-of-air-warfare.86119/

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## MastanKhan

Sinnerman108 said:


> Not really,
> Even if the air-frame remains worthy, the plane maybe useless
> due to technological advancements and survival requirements.
> 
> How wise would it be to fly the JF when operational theater consists of 5G+ and stealth with engines
> producing more thrust than weight ?



Hi,

Basically it all depends on what the neighboring forces have in the arena---.


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## Sinnerman108

GriffinsRule said:


> So you are implying that the life cycle for the JF-17 is only 15 years and that according to you we should see the first JF-17s to be retiring by 2024. How you got the 15 year lifespan, I am not sure, but 5 years is not that far ahead so we will know soon enough.
> 
> PS, the fact is Pakistan only builds 58% of the airframe, where the lower cost of labor comes in handy. It does not apply to the rest of the parts sourced from Russia and China so I think the cost-benefit you guys are doing probably has some holes in it as well.
> 
> Second, given that PAF will be starting to retire its Mirages around 2025 timeframe, and we have a lot of them in the inventory to replace, it is completely out of the realm of possibility that Pakistan is going to be replacing not just the F-7s, but the Mirages as well ALONG with the JF-17 at the same time. Its simply not going to happen.
> 
> 
> 
> Are you talking about 2025 or 2055?
> If 2025, then it would be very wise to be flying the JF-17, You can probably figure out yourself a rough estimate of how many 5th Gen aircraft will be flying in the subcontinent even in the next two decades. Your comment can be applied to say, F-7PG for example, but if your contention that the Block 1 and 2 versions of JF-17 will be useless in the next 5 years due to technological advancements, you are incorrect.





Thorough Pro said:


> Same as now with 50 year old Mirages and F7's





MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Basically it all depends on what the neighboring forces have in the arena---.


@MastanKhan thanks for paraphrasing. 

@Thorough Pro and @GriffinsRule , Study the following phenomenon. 
Your answer is in here.

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## MastanKhan

Sinnerman108 said:


> @MastanKhan thanks for paraphrasing.
> 
> @Thorough Pro and @GriffinsRule , Study the following phenomenon.
> Your answer is in here.



Hi,

Love that sample of growth curve---. The Mirage 3 / 5 are upgraded in a manner never thought that it could happen to this aircraft---even by the manufacturer---.

As it is getting older---the aircraft is going towards the peak of its performance---amazing---simply amazing---. Only the french can design something like that or the americans---.

Now can you just imagine---if we had opted for the Mirage F1 in the 80's and gotten the plant to build the as well---.

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## Sinnerman108

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Love that sample of growth curve---. The Mirage 3 / 5 are upgraded in a manner never thought that it could happen to this aircraft---even by the manufacturer---.
> 
> As it is getting older---the aircraft is going towards the peak of its performance---amazing---simply amazing---. Only the french can design something like that or the americans---.
> 
> Now can you just imagine---if we had opted for the Mirage F1 in the 80's and gotten the plant to build the as well---.



If i have one goat today, and it has 2 kids per lactation cycle of 5 months, then I will have 1 goat and 4 kids end of year. 
however the growth rate will be much higher the following year, and then the following year. 

The seeds of technology and industry that you sow in the right climate and environment, continue to give you fruits. 
provided you don't plant wheat in marsh land. 

Back to topic, t*he force disparity may not be massive today, however the investments that the enemy is making in technology, and the speed at which technology is being made available will lead to a massive disparity in future. *

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Love that sample of growth curve---. The Mirage 3 / 5 are upgraded in a manner never thought that it could happen to this aircraft---even by the manufacturer---.
> 
> As it is getting older---the aircraft is going towards the peak of its performance---amazing---simply amazing---. Only the french can design something like that or the americans---.
> 
> *Now can you just imagine---if we had opted for the Mirage F1 in the 80's and gotten the plant to build the as well--*-.


Had that happened, and we moved into the 1990s, we might have experimented with fitting the SMR-95 turbofan engine to it (as the South Africans did at the time). In lieu of the F-16s, we could have seen a brand new multi-role fighter in the PAF years before the JF-17. And the PAF may have had the flexibility to be more ambitious with the JF-17 (basically, sign onto the J-10 since the F-1 was there for the lightweight role already).

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## Avicenna

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Had that happened, and we moved into the 1990s, we might have experimented with fitting the SMR-95 turbofan engine to it (as the South Africans did at the time). In lieu of the F-16s, we could have seen a brand new multi-role fighter in the PAF years before the JF-17. And the PAF may have had the flexibility to be more ambitious with the JF-17 (basically, sign onto the J-10 since the F-1 was there for the lightweight role already).



In hindsight, it was a major missed oppurtunity.

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## fatman17

static display of PAF Hercules at International Air Tattoo show 
Web Desk On Jul 20, 2019

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## Ali_Baba

Painting up a C130 and bringing it to RIAT is becoming lame, they need to send over the JF17s !!!!!!!


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## Tamiyah

No it gives more space for paintings.


Ali_Baba said:


> Painting up a C130 and bringing it to RIAT is becoming lame, they need to send over the JF17s !!!!!!!


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## hassan1



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## araz

Sinnerman108 said:


> Not really,
> Even if the air-frame remains worthy, the plane maybe useless
> due to technological advancements and survival requirements.
> 
> How wise would it be to fly the JF when operational theater consists of 5G+ and stealth with engines
> producing more thrust than weight ?


Cost considerations of 5th generation fighters would mean that 4+ generation fighters would still remain relevant in the Indo Pak theatre in the 40s. So yes the utility might not be as much as it is now but it will certainly not disappear totally. Even US is looking to fly the 16s till the 40s
A



syed_yusuf said:


> The time is ripe to standardize mirage fleet for better operations, training, delivery and punch
> 
> The time is now to have rose 5 for mirage 5


Unless you are looking at manufacturing the air frame locally and fitting in a RD engine and Chinese Radars the venture is past its sell by date. Most frames would need replacement by 2025 which is why PAF wants to start replacing them .
A



Tank131 said:


> Speaking of sensor fusion, i wonder if anyone has looked at a defensive drown swarm. We all know about their potential use in offense to both confuse an enemies networks and overwhem air defenses, but what about a defensive swarm. It would be a interesting idea for a nation like Pakistan who is trying to find an impenetrable defensive posture with just the right amount of offense to keep its neighborhood behaving well.
> 
> The idea is to stick radars on drones (for example, having small radars with say 50km ranges and datalinks allowing ground controllers to operate like AWAC controls. Other drones would be in the air with EW pods similar to growlers at various frequencies. This would cause havoc and blinding of any attacking force while leaving PAF with strong, multi-tiered situational awareness with AWACS, fighters, drones, and ground radar all datalinked into one network.


Technology and engine manufacturing maybe hurdles. We are progressing slowly but still seem dependent on China for essential supplies and designs. Azm city might free us up with more resources and independence.
A


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## JK!

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/t...st-might-kill-russias-new-stealth-su-57-25893

What are the chances of looking at something like this to boost the capabilities of JF17?

Not necessarily by procurement from the US but developing such a capability with friendly nations like China for Pakistan’s existing fighters


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## Tank131

JK! said:


> https://nationalinterest.org/blog/t...st-might-kill-russias-new-stealth-su-57-25893
> 
> What are the chances of looking at something like this to boost the capabilities of JF17?
> 
> Not necessarily by procurement from the US but developing such a capability with friendly nations like China for Pakistan’s existing fighters



@Bilal Khan (Quwa) and i discussed this a few years back. The Chinese developed EOTS-89 AND EORD-31 and combined them into a chin mounted sensor on J-31. These are an electro-optical targeting system and an IRST respectively. That is essentially what the legion pod is, and IRST. That is the main reason new aircraft carry IRST so as to fly with the radars off and still be able to see long distances. Supposedly IRST is in the cards for Blk 3 but no official word as to which one or its capabilities. These sensors list detection range of F-22 as 110km which feels a little overstated, but supposedly the a Russian Su-35 captured images of F-22 being seen on IRST scopes so who knows for sure.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/a...irm-unveils-new-sensors-for-j-20-j-31-416111/

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## Chak Bamu

Sinnerman108 said:


> Back to topic, t*he force disparity may not be massive today, however the investments that the enemy is making in technology, and the speed at which technology is being made available will lead to a massive disparity in future. *



Hence the need to talk peace instead of perpetual war. Stay strong & opportunities would present themselves during peace-time.

Problem with efficiency mind-set is that it ignores strategic dimensions.


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## hassan1



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## Yasser76

Khan/Trump visit bearing fruits already? This authorisation was sorted out prior to trip 

United Technologies Corp., doing business as Pratt & Whitney Military Engines, East Hartford, Connecticut, has been awarded a $253,708,434 indefinite-delivery-requirements contract for engine module remanufacture. This contract provides for F100-PW-100/-200/-220/-220E/-229/-229EEP engine module remanufacture for Foreign Military Sales (FMS) partner countries. Work will be performed at East Hartford, Connecticut; Midland, Georgia; and Midwest City, Oklahoma, and is expected to be completed by July 30, 2024. This contract involves foreign military sales to Chile, Indonesia, Taiwan, Poland, Greece, Iraq, *Pakistan*, Romania, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Thailand and Morocco. No funds are being obligated at the time of award. This award is the result of a sole source acquisition. The Air Force Sustainment Center, Tinker Air Force Base, Oklahoma, is the contracting activity (FA8121-19-D-0005).

Data Link Solutions LLC, Cedar Rapids, Iowa, is awarded a $235,566,335 modification to its current indefinite-delivery/indefinite-quantity contract (N00039-15-D-0007) to increase the ceiling of the existing production contract line item number (CLIN), spares CLIN, and systems engineering and integration CLIN of the referenced contract. This ceiling increase will implement the capabilities identified in the Joint Requirements Oversight Council (JROC) Memorandum dated Aug. 20, 2018, wherein the JROC endorsed the advanced capabilities of Concurrent Multi-Netting-4 (CMN-4), Concurrent Contention Receive, and Enhanced Throughput as the Department of Defense baseline for all future upgrades to any platform requiring Link-16. In response to the JROC memorandum, current Link-16 platform users identified the need for the procurement and/or retrofit of 3,370 additional Multifunctional Information Distribution System Joint Tactical Radio System (MIDS JTRS) CMN-4, F-22 Falcon, Tactical Targeting Network Technology (TTNT) terminals. This increase in scope will be in addition to the current scope in the original Class Justification and Approval (CJ&A) No. 17,226 approved April 25, 2014, for the MIDS JTRS; the amended CJ&A No. 18,012 approved Jan. 18, 2017, for the addition of the MIDS JTRS TTNT development effort; and CJ&A No. 18,415 approved Sept. 11, 2018, for the addition of MIDS Modernization Increment 2, retrofits and additional MIDS JTRS terminals, not including F-22s. The modification will increase the contract value to $1,224,529,670. This contract combines purchases for the Navy, Air Force and MIDS Program Office, as well as to the governments of Austria, Chile, Finland, Israel, Jordan, Japan, Kuwait, Malaysia, Morocco, Oman, *Pakistan*, Qatar, South Korea, Saudi Arabia, Singapore, Sweden, Switzerland, Taiwan, Thailand, United Arab Emirates, Australia, Canada, New Zealand and the United Kingdom. This contract also includes purchases to NATO and all NATO nations under the Foreign Military Sales program. Work will be performed in Cedar Rapids, Iowa (50%); and Wayne, New Jersey (50%), and is expected to be completed June 2020. No additional funding will be placed on contract or obligated at the time of modification award. Existing contract funds will not expire at the end of the current fiscal year. Future contract actions will be issued and funds obligated as individual delivery orders. This contract modification was not competitively procured because it is a follow-on sole-source, multiple-award procurement pursuant to the authority of Title 10 U.S. Code 2304(c)(1): only one or a limited number of responsible sources (Federal Acquisition Regulation subpart 6.302-1(a)(2)). Non-competitive procedures were approved for this modification under CJ&A 19,415. Naval Information Warfare System Command, San Diego, California, is the contracting activity.

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## MastanKhan

Avicenna said:


> In hindsight, it was a major missed oppurtunity.



Hi,

Not now---even at that time it was a blunder---. It was absolutely shocking.

There was no tactical vision at that time---.

The Mirage F1 was a beautiful aircraft---. Pakistan could have had aircraft and its plant and assembly for not a lot of money---.

That aircraft was the perfect aircraft for the Paf---because if you look at the JF17---it is so close to the Mirage F1 capabilities---.

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## denel

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Not now---even at that time it was a blunder---. It was absolutely shocking.
> 
> There was no tactical vision at that time---.
> 
> The Mirage F1 was a beautiful aircraft---. Pakistan could have had aircraft and its plant and assembly for not a lot of money---.
> 
> That aircraft was the perfect aircraft for the Paf---because if you look at the JF17---it is so close to the Mirage F1 capabilities---.


Correct. Atlas was experimenting with one of the RD engines on F1s and the test bed is still flying now 20+yrs later. F1s are and were a much more potent fighter than the M3/5. Dont forget we were flying with helmet mounted sights on these babies in late 70's onwards mated to Kukris.

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## Avicenna

denel said:


> Correct. Atlas was experimenting with one of the RD engines on F1s and the test bed is still flying now 20+yrs later. F1s are and were a much more potent fighter than the M3/5. Dont forget we were flying with helmet mounted sights on these babies in late 70's onwards mated to Kukris.



Mirage F1s were somewhat feared from what I can recall back in the day.

Mated with Russian engines and other goodies that you know about.....

Oh well.

Whats done is done.

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## MastanKhan

denel said:


> Correct. Atlas was experimenting with one of the RD engines on F1s and the test bed is still flying now 20+yrs later. F1s are and were a much more potent fighter than the M3/5. Dont forget we were flying with helmet mounted sights on these babies in late 70's onwards mated to Kukris.



Hi,

The Paf was enraptured by the power of the F16 engine---and that is what they directed all their attention towards---power---power---power till the Paf hit the brick wall in the form and shape of the jF17---.

No engine available---then the one that became available was supposedly under powered---the RD93---that was a very hard pill to swallow for the Paf---.

That is where they had to change their thinking and approach towards flying and combat training---and to their surprise---they found out that it really was not that important to have a massively powerful engine---there were other factors that could provide air superiority as well.

We all learn---.

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## Aryeih Leib

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=398055211069146





This documentary of Pakistan airforce stats that Chinese A5 fighter bomber could use Aim 9 P missile


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## Aryeih Leib

https://www.facebook.com/Pakistan-fighter-jets-334132477461420/

Page link


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## Adam_Khan

Aryeih Leib said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=398055211069146
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This documentary of Pakistan airforce stats that Chinese A5 fighter bomber could use Aim 9 P missile



All non US origin Pakistani aircraft including F.6, A.5, FT.5, F.7P, F.7PG and mirage have used or are using sidewinders as their primary air to air missile.


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## hassan1



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## Armchair

Bossman said:


> Please have a rational thought process. Don’t BS, take your meds or move to the old people home paid for by my taxes in California



You should have paid attention to what I wrote before on another thread to you. Your behavior is disruptive and degrades the quality of the forum. And your replies are immature and devoid of meaningful content. Ad hominems do not add anything.

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## Aryeih Leib

Sir US allowed the integration? 

Does that mean if PAF wants it can integrate Aim missile onto jf 17 also ??


Adam_Khan said:


> All non US origin Pakistani aircraft including F.6, A.5, FT.5, F.7P, F.7PG and mirage have used or are using sidewinders as their primary air to air missile.

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## Zarvan

Air Chief in Poland

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## Path-Finder

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1154022697871040512

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1154022712504926209

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## Keysersoze

Aryeih Leib said:


> Sir US allowed the integration?
> 
> Does that mean if PAF wants it can integrate Aim missile onto jf 17 also ??


Depends What type of AIM

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## fatman17

.@StateDept authorizes a proposed Foreign Military Sale (FMS) to #Pakistan for Technical Security Team (TST) Continued Support of the F-16 Program worth $125 million @StateDeptPM @State_SCA #FMSUpdate-https://t.co/jUThWcz29D

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## fatman17

The US State Department has made a determination approving a possible Foreign Military Sale to Pakistan for Technical Security Team in continued support of the F-16 program for an estimated cost of 125 million dollars.

The Defense Security Cooperation Agency has delivered the required certification notifying Congress of this possible sale.

The Government of Pakistan had requested a continuation of technical support services; U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics support services; and other related elements of logistics support to assist in the oversight of operations in support of the Pakistan Peace Drive advanced F-16 program.

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## fatman17

Viper Driver Flying Hours 
Sqn.Ldr. Waqas "Fury-1" Javed


Viper Driver

Name
Sqn.Ldr.Waqas "Fury-1" Javed
Country
Pakistan 
Unit
11th squadron "Arrows"Flying F-16sViper Hours
1100

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## hassan1




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## khanasifm

fatman17 said:


> The US State Department has made a determination approving a possible Foreign Military Sale to Pakistan for Technical Security Team in continued support of the F-16 program for an estimated cost of 125 million dollars.
> 
> The Defense Security Cooperation Agency has delivered the required certification notifying Congress of this possible sale.
> 
> The Government of Pakistan had requested a continuation of technical support services; U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics support services; and other related elements of logistics support to assist in the oversight of operations in support of the Pakistan Peace Drive advanced F-16 program.
> View attachment 571027



Basically 60 US Booz employee to monitor and supply chain perhaps nothing else , not sure what’s the pop for the contract

Nothing technical transfer or equipment or stores

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## fatman17

fatman17 said:


> The US State Department has made a determination approving a possible Foreign Military Sale to Pakistan for Technical Security Team in continued support of the F-16 program for an estimated cost of 125 million dollars.
> 
> The Defense Security Cooperation Agency has delivered the required certification notifying Congress of this possible sale.
> 
> The Government of Pakistan had requested a continuation of technical support services; U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics support services; and other related elements of logistics support to assist in the oversight of operations in support of the Pakistan Peace Drive advanced F-16 program.
> View attachment 571027


This doesn't fall under security assistance, which is still suspended. USA is spending this money on 60+ Americans who monitor end user agreement, which is in their own interests.

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## fatman17

khanasifm said:


> Basically 60 US Booz employee to monitor and supply chain perhaps nothing else , not sure what’s the pop for the contract
> 
> Nothing technical transfer or equipment or stores


Spares are included

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## mingle

fatman17 said:


> This doesn't fall under security assistance, which is still suspended. USA is spending this money on 60+ Americans who monitor end user agreement, which is in their own interests.


We don't need aid 500 million is not big number


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## fatman17

mingle said:


> We don't need aid 500 million is not big number


Original agreement is based on Pakistan sovereign funds of US $900m+

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## mingle

fatman17 said:


> Original agreement is based on Pakistan sovereign funds of US $900m+


We should not take that route again because when things goes south yanks will talk bla bla best is get line of credit if we get I know it's has interest but it's very minimal at that level.


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## fatman17

mingle said:


> We should not take that route again because when things goes south yanks will talk bla bla best is get line of credit if we get I know it's has interest but it's very minimal at that level.


This is the 2nd instance, 1st being the 650m paid for the 28 embargoed F16s.

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## fatman17

The US State Department approved a possible Foreign Military Sale to Pakistan for continued support of the F-16 program. The FMS is valued at $125 million. The Government of Pakistan had requested a continuation of technical support services, US Government and contractor technical and logistics support services, and other related elements of logistics support to assist in the oversight of operations in support of the Pakistan Peace Drive advanced F-16 program. Pakistan has used the F-16 fighter jets against India, the latest being in the aftermath of the Balakot airstrike inside Pakistan by India. The program raised the total number of F-16s ordered by Pakistan to 54. The Pakistan Air Force received its first F-16, in the block 15 F-16A/B configuration, in 1982.

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## GriffinsRule

fatman17 said:


> The US State Department approved a possible Foreign Military Sale to Pakistan for continued support of the F-16 program. The FMS is valued at $125 million. The Government of Pakistan had requested a continuation of technical support services, US Government and contractor technical and logistics support services, and other related elements of logistics support to assist in the oversight of operations in support of the Pakistan Peace Drive advanced F-16 program. Pakistan has used the F-16 fighter jets against India, the latest being in the aftermath of the Balakot airstrike inside Pakistan by India. The program raised the total number of F-16s ordered by Pakistan to 54. The Pakistan Air Force received its first F-16, in the block 15 F-16A/B configuration, in 1982.
> View attachment 571318



The biggest thing this news really confirms is that PAF is not very worried about the rampant kill-switch threads on this forum that use to pop up pre-February 27th. PAF requesting a continuation of oversight of the F-16s by the US. Guess they must know something we dont. 

PS, this news has no relation to the alleged acquisition of the block 72s in the future.

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## fatman17

GriffinsRule said:


> The biggest thing this news really confirms is that PAF is not very worried about the rampant kill-switch threads on this forum that use to pop up pre-February 27th. PAF requesting a continuation of oversight of the F-16s by the US. Guess they must know something we dont.
> 
> PS, this news has no relation to the alleged acquisition of the block 72s in the future.


Exactly


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## MystryMan

hassan1 said:


> View attachment 570583


Which Anti aircraft gun is that?


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## Yasser76

Small but interesting point. The deal mentions looking after PAF's fleet of over "60 F-16" when we have around 75. This leads to believe that the security and oversight deal only cover the technology within the Block 52s and the MLUs. It DOES NOT cover the Jordanian F-16s that were not upgraded to that standard.Hence why we do not need to station them at Shabaz AFB or Mushaf AFB were the oversight teams are.

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## Army research

3 inch gun


MystryMan said:


> Which Anti aircraft gun is that?[/QUOTE
> 
> 
> MystryMan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Which Anti aircraft gun is that?
Click to expand...

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## fatman17

The export variant of J-10C might be called J-10CE. The latest rumor (July 2019) suggested that a new batch of J-10C powered by the indigenous WS-10B turbofan without the TVC nozzle has been in production.

- Last Updated 8/1/19

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## HAIDER

fatman17 said:


> The export variant of J-10C might be called J-10CE. The latest rumor (July 2019) suggested that a new batch of J-10C powered by the indigenous WS-10B turbofan without the TVC nozzle has been in production.
> 
> - Last Updated 8/1/19


Pakistan don t need TVC. TVC only good for acrobats , in real war scenario it has no role. When the plane activates TVC, it slows down and consume more fuel. Which is lethal for any strike or interceptor role

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## The Eagle

fatman17 said:


> The export variant of J-10C might be called J-10CE. The latest rumor (July 2019) suggested that a new batch of J-10C powered by the indigenous WS-10B turbofan without the TVC nozzle has been in production.
> 
> - Last Updated 8/1/19



That surely is confirm or close to that. Couple of days ago, a poster showing J-20 & J-10 bids farewell to Russian engine and then, few pictures with low resolution observes the new engine. That is a breakthrough by China indeed.

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## Tamiyah

I also saw some picture that are of J10 with WS-10 engine.


fatman17 said:


> The export variant of J-10C might be called J-10CE. The latest rumor (July 2019) suggested that a new batch of J-10C powered by the indigenous WS-10B turbofan without the TVC nozzle has been in production.
> 
> - Last Updated 8/1/19


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## Aryeih Leib

International customer launch order for M346FA

Leonardo, an Italian multinational company specialising in aerospace, defence and security, has secured a launch order from a 'major international customer' for six M346FA fighter attack aircraft. 

This FA variant (Fighter Attack), developed from the Advanced Jet Trainer variant of the former Aermacchi M346, the T-346 Master. This new optimized variant is a multi-role lightweight fighter aircraft equipped with multi-mode Grifo-346 radar and Identification Friend or Foe (IFF). It features a digital glass cockpit accommodating two crew members in tandem configuration. It can carry an extensive variety of air-to-air and air-ground weapons (IR, Radar, laser/GPS guided and un-guided) and several external loads including gun, reconnaissance, target designation or electronic warfare pods.

The M346FA was unveiled during the Paris Air Show in 2017 and immediately attracted the interest of many nations. The aircraft is being marketed for export to South American and East Asian countries, and is claimed to be able to carry out operational missions at far lower costs than those of front-line fighters. 

The 'major international customer' is still unknown. But it is no secret, that Leonardo remains confident that it can sell the M346FA to Argentina, despite the rumour that this country has already selected the Korean Aerospace Industries (KAI) FA-50 Fighting Eagle to be its new interim fighter aircraft. Time will tell which country will appear as the launching international customer.

Source : Scramble magazine


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## fatman17

HAIDER said:


> Pakistan don t need TVC. TVC only good for acrobats , in real war scenario it has no role. When the plane activates TVC, it slows down and consume more fuel. Which is lethal for any strike or interceptor role


This model is without TVC

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## fatman17

Aryeih Leib said:


> International customer launch order for M346FA
> 
> Leonardo, an Italian multinational company specialising in aerospace, defence and security, has secured a launch order from a 'major international customer' for six M346FA fighter attack aircraft.
> 
> This FA variant (Fighter Attack), developed from the Advanced Jet Trainer variant of the former Aermacchi M346, the T-346 Master. This new optimized variant is a multi-role lightweight fighter aircraft equipped with multi-mode Grifo-346 radar and Identification Friend or Foe (IFF). It features a digital glass cockpit accommodating two crew members in tandem configuration. It can carry an extensive variety of air-to-air and air-ground weapons (IR, Radar, laser/GPS guided and un-guided) and several external loads including gun, reconnaissance, target designation or electronic warfare pods.
> 
> The M346FA was unveiled during the Paris Air Show in 2017 and immediately attracted the interest of many nations. The aircraft is being marketed for export to South American and East Asian countries, and is claimed to be able to carry out operational missions at far lower costs than those of front-line fighters.
> 
> The 'major international customer' is still unknown. But it is no secret, that Leonardo remains confident that it can sell the M346FA to Argentina, despite the rumour that this country has already selected the Korean Aerospace Industries (KAI) FA-50 Fighting Eagle to be its new interim fighter aircraft. Time will tell which country will appear as the launching international customer.
> 
> Source : Scramble magazine


Why post here and PAF is not the customer

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## messiach

Very interesting news for turbine engineers. Whats the source?



fatman17 said:


> The export variant of J-10C might be called J-10CE. The latest rumor (July 2019) suggested that a new batch of J-10C powered by the indigenous WS-10B turbofan without the TVC nozzle has been in production.
> 
> - Last Updated 8/1/19


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## fatman17

messiach said:


> Very interesting news for turbine engineers. Whats the source?


It's a Chinese Web site, usually quite accurate


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## HAIDER

fatman17 said:


> This model is without TVC


Yes, that's my argument, TVC is more cosmetic then real time.

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## messiach

NGFA is on track then.


fatman17 said:


> It's a Chinese Web site, usually quite accurate

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## Aryeih Leib

Sir some time ago some members were saying paf will these trainers so I thought 
That undisclosed buyer will be PAF


fatman17 said:


> Why post here and PAF is not the customer


Yes Israel has ordered the armed version of this jet

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## fatman17

Aryeih Leib said:


> Sir some time ago some members were saying paf will these trainers so I thought
> That undisclosed buyer will be PAF Yes Israel has ordered the armed version of this jet


Okay, no worries

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## fatman17

The Eagle said:


> That surely is confirm or close to that. Couple of days ago, a poster showing J-20 & J-10 bids farewell to Russian engine and then, few pictures with low resolution observes the new engine. That is a breakthrough by China indeed.


Eventually they will master the technology, they have with most everything else.

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## Beethoven

messiach said:


> NGFA is on track then.


M'am why do i get this impression that AZM will be employing chinese turbofans...


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Aryeih Leib said:


> Sir some time ago some members were saying paf will these trainers so I thought
> That undisclosed buyer will be PAF Yes Israel has ordered the armed version of this jet


In a May 2019 interview with Alan Warnes, the PAF CAS did say that the PAF is pursuing a LIFT, and that they evaluated the KAI/LM T-50, AVIC L-15, and Leonardo M-346. It'd be interesting if the customer of the M-346FA is actually Israel, not sure why Leonardo would shy away from disclosing the country name in that case. I suspect it's either Azebaijan, Malaysia, Argentina, or Pakistan.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> In a May 2019 interview with Alan Warnes, the PAF CAS did say that the PAF is pursuing a LIFT, and that they evaluated the KAI/LM T-50, AVIC L-15, and Leonardo M-346. It'd be interesting if the customer of the M-346FA is actually Israel, not sure why Leonardo would shy away from disclosing the country name in that case. I suspect it's either Azebaijan, Malaysia, Argentina, or Pakistan.


Sir, 
It is interesting to note that M-346 was a joint venture between Russia and Italy which was abandoned because of sanctions imposed by USA on Russia, Russia however modified and improved on the M346 to produce YAK-140 and the Chinese developed the L-15 with some collaboration with Russia. All these aircraft have one thing in common that is these are twin engined aircraft. 

KAI/LM T-50 is a mini F-16 using a single F-18 engine. T-50 that are being flown in Korean Air Force have not gone through upgrades that USAF had requested LM for. The upgrades are designed similar to F-16 block upgrades. This aircraft uses a single General Electric F404-102 turbofan engine with Full Authority Digital Engine Control (FADEC) system. The engine consists of three-staged fans, seven axial stage arrangement, and an afterburner. The aircraft has a maximum speed of Mach 1.5. Its engine produces a maximum of 78.7 kN (17,700 lbf) of thrust with afterburner making it the only supersonic LIFT platform. 

Paf has historically relied more on single engined platforms but there were many twin engined aircraft flown as well by PAF. The Karakorum 8 that is being used is a single engined aircraft but it is only used as an intermediate trainer where as F-6T (now decommissioned) was used for supersonic flight training which added both expense and time. Since this is gone supersonic training is done on OCU aircraft and simulators. Though training done on simulators is far more advance and beyond what can be achieved in a real aircraft still some consider that it is not the real thing (something I personally disagree). 

Irrespective to what were the parameters set by PAF for evaluation of LIFT platforms would it not be in the best interest to have something that can give both transonic and supersonic capability with also attack capability and limited area deniability.

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## Ali_Baba

PAF has singled engined fighters, so LIFT roled aircraft only ever needed to be single engined. Now, that Azm will be twin engined, PAF will revist its training pipeline and associated procurement to ensure it has the processes and tools in place to train PAF pilots of the future. Chances are that the new LIFT procurement will need to be twin engined ?

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## messiach

I never said it will be using turbines from A,B or C. All it meant is we have backup availability.



Beethoven said:


> M'am why do i get this impression that AZM will be employing chinese turbofans...

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## Raider 21

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Sir,
> It is interesting to note that M-346 was a joint venture between Russia and Italy which was abandoned because of sanctions imposed by USA on Russia, Russia however modified and improved on the M346 to produce YAK-140 and the Chinese developed the L-15 with some collaboration with Russia. All these aircraft have one thing in common that is these are twin engined aircraft.
> 
> KAI/LM T-50 is a mini F-16 using a single F-18 engine. T-50 that are being flown in Korean Air Force have not gone through upgrades that USAF had requested LM for. The upgrades are designed similar to F-16 block upgrades. This aircraft uses a single General Electric F404-102 turbofan engine with Full Authority Digital Engine Control (FADEC) system. The engine consists of three-staged fans, seven axial stage arrangement, and an afterburner. The aircraft has a maximum speed of Mach 1.5. Its engine produces a maximum of 78.7 kN (17,700 lbf) of thrust with afterburner making it the only supersonic LIFT platform.
> 
> Paf has historically relied more on single engined platforms but there were many twin engined aircraft flown as well by PAF. The Karakorum 8 that is being used is a single engined aircraft but it is only used as an intermediate trainer where as F-6T (now decommissioned) was used for supersonic flight training which added both expense and time. Since this is gone supersonic training is done on OCU aircraft and simulators. Though training done on simulators is far more advance and beyond what can be achieved in a real aircraft still some consider that it is not the real thing (something I personally disagree).
> 
> Irrespective to what were the parameters set by PAF for evaluation of LIFT platforms would it not be in the best interest to have something that can give both transonic and supersonic capability with also attack capability and limited area deniability.


T-50 would have been great. 2 ex-PAF pilots in UAE did an initial evaluation of it back in 2005, it was very impressive in their opinion.

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## Beethoven

messiach said:


> I never said it will be using turbines from A,B or C. All it meant is we have backup availability.


Ok.....it means chinese turbofans will be used as backup just in case we dont get them from......


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## GriffinsRule

T-37 used in PAF for jet training along with the K-8 is a twin engine aircraft as well.


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## Dazzler

messiach said:


> NGFA is on track then.



J10C with...


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1156824542188363777

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## MastanKhan

Knuckles said:


> T-50 would have been great. 2 ex-PAF pilots in UAE did an initial evaluation of it back in 2005, it was very impressive in their opinion.



Hi,

So if I may ask---why did the Paf generals claim around that time a few years later---that Paf did not need a trainer---JF17 was a very easy aircraft to fly---.

Why did they need an advanced trainer---?

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## GriffinsRule

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> So if I may ask---why did the Paf generals claim around that time a few years later---that Paf did not need a trainer---JF17 was a very easy aircraft to fly---.
> 
> Why did they need an advanced trainer---?


Cost. I recall watching an interview with the previous chief that actually stated something along the lines of, we are interesting in a LIFT but the current offerings have added on too many other features, that they find secondary for the role, which has resulted in the prices being too high to justify the cost. So they were always interested in getting one, but didnt want a gold plated edition, of sorts.
That was still a while ago, before AZM and before the idea of Pakistan going for its own NGFA. Maybe they updated where the PAF should be in 10-20 years and are accordingly pursuing or prioritizing a different strategy.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> So if I may ask---why did the Paf generals claim around that time a few years later---that Paf did not need a trainer---JF17 was a very easy aircraft to fly---.
> 
> Why did they need an advanced trainer---?





GriffinsRule said:


> Cost. I recall watching an interview with the previous chief that actually stated something along the lines of, we are interesting in a LIFT but the current offerings have added on too many other features, that they find secondary for the role, which has resulted in the prices being too high to justify the cost. So they were always interested in getting one, but didnt want a gold plated edition, of sorts.
> That was still a while ago, before AZM and before the idea of Pakistan going for its own NGFA. Maybe they updated where the PAF should be in 10-20 years and are accordingly pursuing or prioritizing a different strategy.


It looks like it.

According to IHS Jane's interview with the PAF CAS in May 2019, the PAF's ordering 26 JF-17Bs to train young pilots "without first putting them through the F-16, Mirage or F-7P/PG as they are now." So, that big tells me that the PAF wants to start assigning rookie pilots to the JF-17, right away.

But in the same interview, the CAS says the PAF needs a LIFT with "an air interdiction radar and datalink training system," and that it must happen before the "FGFA capability comes online."

So, the PAF wants a LIFT to prepare pilots for a 4+/5th-gen cockpit right away: finish FCU on the LIFT, and then move onto the OCU on the JF-17B or F-16B/D. 

In other words, it's more than learning how to fly the JF-17, but now also knowing BVR, network-enabled operations, using a targeting or recon pod, EW/ECM, etc before doing any OCU flying.

I think there's also a secondary intent, and that is to lessen the Mirage and F-16s' DACT usage at CCS.

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## MastanKhan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It looks like it.
> 
> According to IHS Jane's interview with the PAF CAS in May 2019, the PAF's ordering 26 JF-17Bs to train young pilots "without first putting them through the F-16, Mirage or F-7P/PG as they are now." So, that big tells me that the PAF wants to start assigning rookie pilots to the JF-17, right away.
> 
> But in the same interview, the CAS says the PAF needs a LIFT with "an air interdiction radar and datalink training system," and that it must happen before the "FGFA capability comes online."
> 
> So, the PAF wants a LIFT to prepare pilots for a 4+/5th-gen cockpit right away: finish FCU on the LIFT, and then move onto the OCU on the JF-17B or F-16B/D.
> 
> In other words, it's more than learning how to fly the JF-17, but now also knowing BVR, network-enabled operations, using a targeting or recon pod, EW/ECM, etc before doing any OCU flying.
> 
> I think there's also a secondary intent, and that is to lessen the Mirage and F-16s' DACT usage at CCS.



Hi,

Technology---so much technology overload---. That is why I was always in favor of more 2 seaters than single seaters---.

The single seaters were like cowboys going in with their six shooters---.

The 2 seaters were like the team that went into the gunfight at the ok corral---. The better team won.

Here is what I think---. Paf need to find a way to load the JF17 with around 5 or 6 BVR's---the datalink is obviously there between all aircraft of the group---.

On an air superiority mission---the twin seater would be the leader and the back seater would be the mission incharge---be able to lock and launch all the missiles from the individual aircrafts within that air superiority group at the enemy aircaft or it it is a strike mission against enemy assets then launch the appropriate weapons---.

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## Armchair

If you can subtract some of the hours a PAF pilot needs to fly in an F-16, you increase the operational life of the jet. If LIFT aircraft can be used for keeping pilots current while using F-16 hours less, they are well worth the money.



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Technology---so much technology overload---. That is why I was always in favor of more 2 seaters than single seaters---.
> 
> The single seaters were like cowboys going in with their six shooters---.
> 
> The 2 seaters were like the team that went into the gunfight at the ok corral---. The better team won.
> 
> Here is what I think---. Paf need to find a way to load the JF17 with around 5 or 6 BVR's---the datalink is obviously there between all aircraft of the group---.
> 
> On an air superiority mission---the twin seater would be the leader and the back seater would be the mission incharge---be able to lock and launch all the missiles from the individual aircrafts within that air superiority group at the enemy aircaft or it it is a strike mission against enemy assets then launch the appropriate weapons---.



If you can include UCAVs into that group, that second seat "commander" can use the racks on the UCAVs as BVR carriers.

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## MastanKhan

Armchair said:


> If you can subtract some of the hours a PAF pilot needs to fly in an F-16, you increase the operational life of the jet. If LIFT aircraft can be used for keeping pilots current while using F-16 hours less, they are well worth the money.
> 
> 
> 
> If you can include UCAVs into that group, that second seat "commander" can use the racks on the UCAVs as BVR carriers.



Hi,

That is understood---it is by default---. 

Maybe they need to invest in a real time flight simulator---maybe more than one---.

But what happened to " we have superior pilots---we don't need a lift---single seater JF17 would do the job---it is very easy to fly "---.

Now which ACM needs to put his head on the chopping block---because a twin seater was the need of the hour right from day one---. We would have sold so many JF17's by now with the twin seater package---.

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## Armchair

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> That is understood---it is by default---.
> 
> Maybe they need to invest in a real time flight simulator---maybe more than one---.
> 
> But what happened to " we have superior pilots---we don't need a lift---single seater JF17 would do the job---it is very easy to fly "---.
> 
> Now which ACM needs to put his head on the chopping block---because a twin seater was the need of the hour right from day one---. We would have sold so many JF17's by now with the twin seater package---.



I think what we should be offering foreign air forces is:

1. PAF's vaunted role in training fighter pilots. 
2. Package deals - buy the aircraft, support and training all put together
3. Package deals 2 - lease a squadron, fighter pilots and maintenance crew come with the aircraft. 

Deal 3 is something we can offer that almost no one else can competitively offer.


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Armchair said:


> If you can subtract some of the hours a PAF pilot needs to fly in an F-16, you increase the operational life of the jet. If LIFT aircraft can be used for keeping pilots current while using F-16 hours less, they are well worth the money.
> 
> 
> 
> If you can include UCAVs into that group, that second seat "commander" can use the racks on the UCAVs as BVR carriers.


Yep. If you also factor-out the DACT hours CCS uses on the F-16s, the LIFT ends up saving even more.

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## Armchair

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Yep. If you also factor-out the DACT hours CCS uses on the F-16s, the LIFT ends up saving even more.



Even the US uses F-5s / T-38s in DACT

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## GriffinsRule

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Yep. If you also factor-out the DACT hours CCS uses on the F-16s, the LIFT ends up saving even more.


You cant have DACT with LIFT trainers alone... how are you supposed to know the strengths and weaknesses of your fighter jet platform while flying something that is a watered down version of frontline jets and meant to ease with the transition and introducing some other flight dynamics up from a basic/intermediate jet trainer?
A trainer would not give you that experience. I am really surprised you would bring this up as a point in favor or LIFT.

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## Armchair

The problem is to find a LIFT that has similar flight characteristics and instrumentation to an F-16. Perhaps the JFT-B can be tailored for this. T-50s are ideal but way too expensive. Don't know if the L-15 is junk or would have usefulness. 

Modern LIFT often come with special programming that allows them to mimic (roughly) a certain aircraft) can the Italian M-346 do this for the F-16? Can the L-15 be setup that way? It looks like a simple decision but once you look at the nitty gritty the issue becomes complex.


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

GriffinsRule said:


> You cant have DACT with LIFT trainers ... how are you supposed to know the strengths and weaknesses of your fighter jet platform while flying something that is a watered down version of frontline jets and meant to ease with the transition and introducing some other flight dynamics up from a basic/intermediate jet trainer?
> A trainer would not give you that experience. I am really surprised you would bring this up as a point in favor or LIFT.


You wouldn't take out other fighters entirely, just reduce the # of DACT hours they're spending by giving some hours to a LIFT. The LIFT can help with other parts at a lower cost, e.g., simulating an enemy asset with BVR and network-enabled support. You might not need an F-16 to provide that for every DACT mission, only some.


----------



## MastanKhan

Armchair said:


> I think what we should be offering foreign air forces is:
> 
> 1. PAF's vaunted role in training fighter pilots.
> 2. Package deals - buy the aircraft, support and training all put together
> 3. Package deals 2 - lease a squadron, fighter pilots and maintenance crew come with the aircraft.
> 
> Deal 3 is something we can offer that almost no one else can competitively offer.



Hi,

We are desperately trying---. We missed the boat because we did not have the two seater---.

Otherwise it would have been a different story---.

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## GriffinsRule

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> You wouldn't take out other fighters entirely, just reduce the # of DACT hours they're spending by giving some hours to a LIFT. The LIFT can help with other parts at a lower cost, e.g., simulating an enemy asset with BVR and network-enabled support. You might not need an F-16 to provide that for every DACT mission, only some.


Ah I see what you were trying to say.


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## MastanKhan

GriffinsRule said:


> You cant have DACT with LIFT trainers alone... how are you supposed to know the strengths and weaknesses of your fighter jet platform while flying something that is a watered down version of frontline jets and meant to ease with the transition and introducing some other flight dynamics up from a basic/intermediate jet trainer?
> A trainer would not give you that experience. I am really surprised you would bring this up as a point in favor or LIFT.



Hi,

The environment that we live in---with such a large modern enemy fleet next door---we really cannot afford to have lesser capability aircraft to train on or for the pilots to keep their hours---.

To hone our abilities to the sharpest & to best utilize our resources---we will have to fly our aircraft that we will fly into the battle with---.

The JF17 is our best assets---we can fly it as much as we can---because the rebuilt cost or the cost of a new aircraft is extremely low---.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

GriffinsRule said:


> Ah I see what you were trying to say.


It seems the Italian Air Force is already doing this with its M-346s.


_From Feb. 4 to 12, two T-346As (Italian Air Force designation for the AleniaAermacchi* M346 “Master”) belonging to the 61° Stormo (Wing) based at Lecce Galatina airport, Italy, deployed to Albacete airbase, Spain, to take part in the TLP (Tactical Leadership Programme) in the “Aggressors” role.

The Italian Masters had already successfully undertaken such task at Grosseto airbase in May 2015, when the T-346 jets conducted several aerial combat sorties against the local-based F-2000A Typhoons of the 4° Stormo._

https://theaviationist.com/2016/02/...or-during-nato-tactical-leadership-programme/​...and Leonardo's marketing it too:






https://www.leonardocompany.com/doc...et_Aermacchi_M_346RedAir_.pdf?t=1538987671612

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## Armchair

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It seems the Italian Air Force is already doing this with its M-346s.
> 
> 
> _From Feb. 4 to 12, two T-346As (Italian Air Force designation for the AleniaAermacchi* M346 “Master”) belonging to the 61° Stormo (Wing) based at Lecce Galatina airport, Italy, deployed to Albacete airbase, Spain, to take part in the TLP (Tactical Leadership Programme) in the “Aggressors” role.
> 
> The Italian Masters had already successfully undertaken such task at Grosseto airbase in May 2015, when the T-346 jets conducted several aerial combat sorties against the local-based F-2000A Typhoons of the 4° Stormo._
> 
> https://theaviationist.com/2016/02/...or-during-nato-tactical-leadership-programme/​...and Leonardo's marketing it too:
> 
> View attachment 572482
> 
> https://www.leonardocompany.com/doc...et_Aermacchi_M_346RedAir_.pdf?t=1538987671612



The M-346 is designed to mimic the control and flight characteristics of multiple aircraft, thus they can be used in this way to a good extent.

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## messiach

Good catch Khan Sahib. I have the answer but very unfortunately cant discuss.


MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> So if I may ask---why did the Paf generals claim around that time a few years later---that Paf did not need a trainer---JF17 was a very easy aircraft to fly---.
> 
> Why did they need an advanced trainer---?



Yes this is interesting news. I know.


Dazzler said:


> J10C with...
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1156824542188363777

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## Raider 21

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> So if I may ask---why did the Paf generals claim around that time a few years later---that Paf did not need a trainer---JF17 was a very easy aircraft to fly---.
> 
> Why did they need an advanced trainer---?


I knew ex-Wing Commanders flying as IPs. Don't know about generals. You can relay that question to them....


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## Raider 21

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> That is understood---it is by default---.
> 
> Maybe they need to invest in a real time flight simulator---maybe more than one---.
> 
> But what happened to " we have superior pilots---we don't need a lift---single seater JF17 would do the job---it is very easy to fly "---.
> 
> Now which ACM needs to put his head on the chopping block---because a twin seater was the need of the hour right from day one---. We would have sold so many JF17's by now with the twin seater package---.


They have a very good flight simulator. Very good setup, almost at every air base that has a Thunder squadron.

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## Silicon0000

messiach said:


> NGFA is on track then.





messiach said:


> I never said it will be using turbines from A,B or C. All it meant is we have backup availability.





MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> So if I may ask---why did the Paf generals claim around that time a few years later---that Paf did not need a trainer---JF17 was a very easy aircraft to fly---.
> 
> Why did they need an advanced trainer---?





messiach said:


> Good catch Khan Sahib. I have the answer but very unfortunately cant discuss.
> 
> 
> Yes this is interesting news. I know.



I am getting a feeling that AZM/NGFA is single engine and in a sense evolution of J10


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Silicon0000 said:


> I am getting a feeling that AZM/NGFA is single engine and in a sense evolution of J10


The PAF CAS' words (via IHS Jane's, May 2019)

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## Tamiyah

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The PAF CAS' words (via IHS Jane's, May 2019)
> 
> View attachment 572618


It means that it would be a collabration with China or Turkey. Bilal Do you think TF-X stand a chance in this?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Tamiyah said:


> It means that it would be a collabration with China or Turkey. Bilal Do you think TF-X stand a chance in this?


The key is "ITAR-free." In other words, for the TF-X to stand a chance, Turkey will need to eliminate any and all US inputs and, in turn, ensure that the technology (their own or from Europe) has no regulatory links to the US.

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## Tamiyah

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The key is "ITAR-free." In other words, for the TF-X to stand a chance, Turkey will need to eliminate any and all US inputs and, in turn, ensure that the technology (their own or from Europe) has no regulatory links to the US.


Yeah. Thank you for your reply.


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## fatman17

AZM in my opinion will be a mix of J31 and TFX, since very little information is available I'm betting that the power plant will be from Rolls Royce, the avionics from Leonardo, and the aircraft will be able to use both Chinese and European weapons.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

fatman17 said:


> AZM in my opinion will be a mix of J31 and TFX, since very little information is available I'm betting that the power plant will be from Rolls Royce, the avionics from Leonardo, and the aircraft will be able to use both Chinese and European weapons.


Seeing how Turkey got booted from the F-35 over the S-400, it's possible we might see Russian involvement in TF-X as well, especially in terms of gas turbines. In that case, it would line-up really well with Project Azm.

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## fatman17

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Seeing how Turkey got booted from the F-35 over the S-400, it's possible we might see Russian involvement in TF-X as well, especially in terms of gas turbines. In that case, it would line-up really well with Project Azm.


Certainly India would show grave concern


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## messiach

I said that to an TAI official at balgat ankara several yrs ago but unfortunately unclesams influence is immense and seductive. It may be very late in the day now.


Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Seeing how Turkey got booted from the F-35 over the S-400, it's possible we might see Russian involvement in TF-X as well, especially in terms of gas turbines. In that case, it would line-up really well with Project Azm.

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## Tank131

My suspicion is that Azm may be the 2nd model of Azm (delta canard) with Chinese equipment like HDM, EOS, and possibly radar (vs leonardo radar) with local, chinese and turkish weapons and russian engine.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Tank131 said:


> My suspicion is that Azm may be the 2nd model of Azm (delta canard) with Chinese equipment like HDM, EOS, and possibly radar (vs leonardo radar) with local, chinese and turkish weapons and russian engine.


A twin-engine config with either the RD-93MA or WS-19, basically.

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## araz

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> A twin-engine config with either the RD-93MA or WS-19, basically.


A quick question. Do you see any role for the RJ series engines which were being licence produced in Turkey? This is a much more advanced engine with better MTBO


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## fatman17

Sorrowfully it is informed that AVM Mahmood Akhtar Bokhari, SBt & bar, President, PAFROA Karachi, has departed for eternal abode this morning, Thursday, 08th August, 2019. May Allah grant him a heavenly abode and solace to his family. He was admitted in the ICU PAF Hospital Faisal, for the past few months where he continued to receive critical and complete attention. 
His funeral prayer will be held today at Baargah Imam Yathrib Phase IV DHA after Zohar prayers (1:30). Burial will be at PAF graveyard, Korangi Creek.

He shot down Russian SU25 Frogfoot with a Sidewinder AAM flying in a F16A during the afghan war in the 80s


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## haroonn

fatman17 said:


> Sorrowfully it is informed that AVM Mahmood Akhtar Bokhari, SBt & bar, President, PAFROA Karachi, has departed for eternal abode this morning, Thursday, 08th August, 2019. May Allah grant him a heavenly abode and solace to his family.
> He shot down Russian SU25 Frogfoot with a Sidewinder AAM flying in a F16A during the afghan war in the 80s



AVM "Athar" Bokhari, not Akhtar. 
May Allah grant him highest place in Jannah..

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## TsAr

fatman17 said:


> Sorrowfully it is informed that AVM Mahmood Akhtar Bokhari, SBt & bar, President, PAFROA Karachi, has departed for eternal abode this morning, Thursday, 08th August, 2019. May Allah grant him a heavenly abode and solace to his family. He was admitted in the ICU PAF Hospital Faisal, for the past few months where he continued to receive critical and complete attention.
> His funeral prayer will be held today at Baargah Imam Yathrib Phase IV DHA after Zohar prayers (1:30). Burial will be at PAF graveyard, Korangi Creek.
> 
> He shot down Russian SU25 Frogfoot with a Sidewinder AAM flying in a F16A during the afghan war in the 80s


إنا لله وإنا إليه راجعون

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## Vortex

fatman17 said:


> Sorrowfully it is informed that AVM Mahmood Akhtar Bokhari, SBt & bar, President, PAFROA Karachi, has departed for eternal abode this morning, Thursday, 08th August, 2019. May Allah grant him a heavenly abode and solace to his family. He was admitted in the ICU PAF Hospital Faisal, for the past few months where he continued to receive critical and complete attention.
> His funeral prayer will be held today at Baargah Imam Yathrib Phase IV DHA after Zohar prayers (1:30). Burial will be at PAF graveyard, Korangi Creek.
> 
> He shot down Russian SU25 Frogfoot with a Sidewinder AAM flying in a F16A during the afghan war in the 80s



إنا لله وإنا إليه راجعون

May Allah open doors of jannat for him and give his family sabr and strength.


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## Comfortably Numb

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/b...g-21-pilot-who-developed-cobra-maneuver-72081

Pugachevs cobra and Pakistani pilots

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## fatman17

haroonn said:


> AVM "Athar" Bokhari, not Akhtar.
> May Allah grant him highest place in Jannah..


I posted how l received it. Yes it's Ather

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## MIRauf

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> A twin-engine config with either the RD-93MA or WS-19, basically.



Bigger question would be that can either of these engine provide the AZM project Jet with Super Cruise ability ?

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## ACE OF THE AIR

fatman17 said:


> Sorrowfully it is informed that AVM Mahmood Akhtar Bokhari, SBt & bar, President, PAFROA Karachi, has departed for eternal abode this morning, Thursday, 08th August, 2019. May Allah grant him a heavenly abode and solace to his family. He was admitted in the ICU PAF Hospital Faisal, for the past few months where he continued to receive critical and complete attention.
> His funeral prayer will be held today at Baargah Imam Yathrib Phase IV DHA after Zohar prayers (1:30). Burial will be at PAF graveyard, Korangi Creek.
> 
> He shot down Russian SU25 Frogfoot with a Sidewinder AAM flying in a F16A during the afghan war in the 80s


You are talking about Masroor's Father?


----------



## Raider 21

fatman17 said:


> Sorrowfully it is informed that AVM Mahmood Akhtar Bokhari, SBt & bar, President, PAFROA Karachi, has departed for eternal abode this morning, Thursday, 08th August, 2019. May Allah grant him a heavenly abode and solace to his family. He was admitted in the ICU PAF Hospital Faisal, for the past few months where he continued to receive critical and complete attention.
> His funeral prayer will be held today at Baargah Imam Yathrib Phase IV DHA after Zohar prayers (1:30). Burial will be at PAF graveyard, Korangi Creek.
> 
> He shot down Russian SU25 Frogfoot with a Sidewinder AAM flying in a F16A during the afghan war in the 80s


Athar Hussain Bokhari was an Air Marshal.

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## mingle

Knuckles said:


> Athar Hussain Bokhari was an Air Marshal.


What happened to him? Sad to hear was he same guy who shot Su25 by F16


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## Raider 21

mingle said:


> What happened to him? Sad to hear was he same guy who shot Su25 by F16


I don't think it is the same Bokhari being referred to.

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## Trailer23

Full episode currently unavailable...

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## Trailer23

A somewhat old News clip of PTV from the 23rd March, 2016 flypast.

Cast: *Sqn. No. 9 (Griffins)*

I had been searching for this clip for months, & stumbled on it on *dailymotion*.






@GriffinsRule @Hodor @Khafee @loanranger

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## Khafee

Trailer23 said:


> A somewhat old News clip of PTV from the 23rd March, 2016 flypast.
> 
> Cast: *Sqn. No. 9 (Griffins)*
> 
> I had been searching for this clip for months, & stumbled on it on *dailymotion*.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @GriffinsRule @Hodor @Khafee @loanranger


2016! The quality looks like pre-1947 (with color)

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## GriffinsRule

Khafee said:


> 2016! The quality looks like pre-1947 (with color)


Probably because the cameras date back to the advent of color TV lol

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## Trailer23

Khafee said:


> 2016! The quality looks like pre-1947 (with color)


Explains why I mentioned PTV...

I figured you guys would've understood that those Camera's are from the stone ages & are still being used.

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## GriffinsRule

Trailer23 said:


> A somewhat old News clip of PTV from the 23rd March, 2016 flypast.
> 
> Cast: *Sqn. No. 9 (Griffins)*
> 
> I had been searching for this clip for months, & stumbled on it on *dailymotion*.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @GriffinsRule @Hodor @Khafee @loanranger


Same question to everyone which also can only expected to be answered in the same manner. Who will say, no I don't give a crap about being in the flypast.
There is no depth to the questions and no interest from the person holding the mic to delve past her one scripted question

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## loanranger

Trailer23 said:


> Full episode currently unavailable...


Finally some new content on our airforce.


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## truthseeker2010

GriffinsRule said:


> Same question to everyone which also can only expected to be answered in the same manner. Who will say, no I don't give a crap about being in the flypast.
> There is no depth to the questions and no interest from the person holding the mic to delve past her one scripted question



What do you expect from a tv anchor to ask from a fighter pilot, whats the no escape zone of aim 120? Certainly not bcoz these are pr videos for general public.

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## fatman17

Self explanatory

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## Maxpane

fatman17 said:


> Self explanatory
> View attachment 573703


salute you sir for your courage

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## Ahmet Pasha

Dont just salute him 
Get him a medal
Campaign for his well deserved medal
If that wretch Mehwish Hayat can sleep her way to medal
We can certainly get this Pak hero recognized for his valor.


fatman17 said:


> Self explanatory
> View attachment 573703





Maxpane said:


> salute you sir for your courage

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## Fieldmarshal

fatman17 said:


> Self explanatory
> View attachment 573703


He is not an officer but a retired JCO

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## MIRauf

what does "O" stands for in the JCO ? equivalent to NCO or WO in the US ? so one doesn't salute them.


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## TsAr

MIRauf said:


> what does "O" stands for in the JCO ? equivalent to NCO or WO in the US ? so one doesn't salute them.


Junior comissioned officer


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## fatman17

Fieldmarshal said:


> He is not an officer but a retired JCO


Doesn't matter

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## fatman17

Indian media reports that Intelligence Agencies have spotted at least three Pakistan Air Force transport aircraft C-130bringing equipment to Skardu Air Base. Pakistan is expected to deploy JF-17 fighter aircraft at Skardu Air Base. The Intelligence Agencies are keeping a close watch on the activity at the Base. In the past, Pakistan has used the Air Base to support its Army operations on the border with India. It has been one week since the Narendra Modi government made moves to end special status of Jammu and Kashmir under Article 370 of the Indian Constitution and bifurcate the state into two Union Territories and the situation between India and Pakistan is tense.

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## fatman17

Fighter pilots of PAF who participated in #OperationSwiftRetort on 27 Feb 2019 have been conferred with gallantry awards.

[emoji828] Wing Commander Noman Ali Khan -- Sitara-e-Jur'at

[emoji828] Wing Commander Faheem Ahmed -- Tamgha-e-Jur'at

[emoji828] Squadron Leader Hasan Siddiqui -- Tamgha-Jur'at https://t.co/3SaFruXudU

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## Trailer23



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## messiach

Chitraul say pehle he rhona dhona. 



fatman17 said:


> Indian media reports that Intelligence Agencies have spotted at least three Pakistan Air Force transport aircraft C-130bringing equipment to Skardu Air Base. Pakistan is expected to deploy JF-17 fighter aircraft at Skardu Air Base. The Intelligence Agencies are keeping a close watch on the activity at the Base. In the past, Pakistan has used the Air Base to support its Army operations on the border with India. It has been one week since the Narendra Modi government made moves to end special status of Jammu and Kashmir under Article 370 of the Indian Constitution and bifurcate the state into two Union Territories and the situation between India and Pakistan is tense.
> View attachment 573902

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## Code_Geass

E


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## truthseeker2010

fatman17 said:


> Indian media reports that Intelligence Agencies have spotted at least three Pakistan Air Force transport aircraft C-130bringing equipment to Skardu Air Base. Pakistan is expected to deploy JF-17 fighter aircraft at Skardu Air Base. The Intelligence Agencies are keeping a close watch on the activity at the Base. In the past, Pakistan has used the Air Base to support its Army operations on the border with India. It has been one week since the Narendra Modi government made moves to end special status of Jammu and Kashmir under Article 370 of the Indian Constitution and bifurcate the state into two Union Territories and the situation between India and Pakistan is tense.
> View attachment 573902



Is there a likelihood of another air to air clash? Or is it just precautionary measures from both sides.


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## Trailer23

truthseeker2010 said:


> Is there a likelihood of another air to air clash? Or is it just precautionary measures from both sides.


The way IK has threatened India, I (personally) think it won't just be an Air-to-Air conflict.

The incident of India coming into Pakistan Air Space on the 26th of Feb are with us. And so are the events that followed the following morning when we responded with might.

But in simple words, i'd say we caught India with their pants down and off guard. And even though I have no doubt about the superiority of our guys in the PAF, one can't be too (over) confident.

Not sure those Radar images of Su-30's and SAMs being deployed in Srinagar are accurate, but you can be sure that if a scrimmage were to take place between the two, those SAMs won't be sitting idle.

Then again, knowing India, they might take out another one of their own in the process.

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## truthseeker2010

Trailer23 said:


> The way IK has threatened India, I (personally) think it won't just be an Air-to-Air conflict.
> 
> The incident of India coming into Pakistan Air Space on the 26th of Feb are with us. And so are the events that followed the following morning when we responded with might.
> 
> But in simple words, i'd say we caught India with their pants down and off guard. And even though I have no doubt about the superiority of our guys in the PAF, one can't be too (over) confident.
> 
> Not sure those Radar images of Su-30's and SAMs being deployed in Srinagar are accurate, but you can be sure that if a scrimmage were to take place between the two, those SAMs won't be sitting idle.
> 
> Then again, knowing India, they might take out another one of their own in the process.



So pak is basically on a war mode, but i am surprized the global media is not covering it, or it might be that mass mobilization wont be taking place, just sudden and swift a2a action like before. That might be the reason why r27 were bought by iaf in so haste.

I personally think 27 feb was one of event which cannot be replicated for war but as things stand Paf will have a upper hand and if it showed discilpine and courage it will outclass iaf.


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## TheTallGuy

I want to put this out in open - we will kill in numbers and suffer losses as well. this *realisation* is important. we should not think that we will not suffer losses these will be painful (F16s/JF17s/Mirages/F7s) and *pilots will die and will be captured*.. we should be ready for it *physically and mentally* - rest assured Pakistan Armed Forces will inflict *far far more losses* on Indian Armed Forces.

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## AFlover

TheTallGuy said:


> I want to put this out in open - we will kill in numbers and suffer losses as well. this *realisation* is important. we should not think that we will not suffer losses these will be painful (F16s/JF17s/Mirages/F7s) and *pilots will die and will be captured*.. we should be ready for it *physically and mentally* - rest assured Pakistan Armed Forces will inflict *far far more losses* on Indian Armed Forces.


This time more active role of ISI is also needed for in house attack during escalation to hit at the head right at the time


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## Dazzler

Interesting payloads..

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## HRK

Dazzler said:


> Interesting payloads..
> 
> View attachment 574601


anti-armour and air2ground roles ...

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## syed_yusuf

Dazzler said:


> Interesting payloads..
> 
> View attachment 574601


What kind of a fuel tank is it carrying ?

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## Dazzler

syed_yusuf said:


> What kind of a fuel tank is it carrying ?


Standard supersonic fuel tanks.


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## Silicon0000

https://www.deviantart.com/bagera3005/art/Lockheed-EFX-70-Panther-USAF-809798957

What's this???


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## Dazzler

Silicon0000 said:


> https://www.deviantart.com/bagera3005/art/Lockheed-EFX-70-Panther-USAF-809798957
> 
> What's this???



Title of this thread, "*Pakistan Air Force | News & Discussions.*"

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## khanasifm

syed_yusuf said:


> What kind of a fuel tank is it carrying ?



Two types on f-7 supersonic 500 litres or 800 litres sub sonic only on centerline 

This is 800 litres drop tanks

With only 2350 litres internal capacity and old 50 technology turbojet engine f-7 total flight time is 25-30 minutes on internal fuel and 45-50 minutes with all tanks
One of the short coming of type 
[emoji6]

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## Armchair

khanasifm said:


> Two types on f-7 supersonic 500 litres or 800 litres sub sonic only on centerline
> 
> This is 800 litres drop tanks
> 
> With only 2350 litres internal capacity and old 50 technology turbojet engine f-7 total flight time is 25-30 minutes on internal fuel and 45-50 minutes with all tanks
> One of the short coming of type
> [emoji6]



Can they use sd10as?

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## fatman17

Armchair said:


> Can they use sd10as?


Only the PAF knows. F7 and the F7pg primary role is point air defence .

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## CHI RULES

fatman17 said:


> Only the PAF knows. F7 and the F7pg primary role is point air defence .


Sir, what is radar range of F7PG, the latest version of F7 in use by Bangaldesh Air Force has reportedly radar range only up to 80 KM so it can't fully utilize BVR capability of SD10.



TheTallGuy said:


> I want to put this out in open - we will kill in numbers and suffer losses as well. this *realisation* is important. we should not think that we will not suffer losses these will be painful (F16s/JF17s/Mirages/F7s) and *pilots will die and will be captured*.. we should be ready for it *physically and mentally* - rest assured Pakistan Armed Forces will inflict *far far more losses* on Indian Armed Forces.


Sir in aggressive role one should expect more losses as compared to defensive one.

Can any one explain how many squadrons of F7s are still operational as in the past it is mentioned that all F7s have been retired from active duty except for training purposes meanwhile F7PGs are active.

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## Armchair

One does not need radar range of the onboard radar. By now ppl should know this. One can simply use off board sensors. Important thing is to be data linked. 

Come on ppl, you can't behave like kids forever. Let's take our discussion quality up a notch

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## araz

CHI RULES said:


> Sir, what is radar range of F7PG, the latest version of F7 in use by Bangaldesh Air Force has reportedly radar range only up to 80 KM so it can't fully utilize BVR capability of SD10.
> 
> 
> Sir in aggressive role one should expect more losses as compared to defensive one.
> 
> Can any one explain how many squadrons of F7s are still operational as in the past it is mentioned that all F7s have been retired from active duty except for training purposes meanwhile F7PGs are active.


I think the Ps are more or less retired barring one squadron or so. The pgs stay (3 squadrons or thereabout) and will be with us for a few years yet.
A

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## Keysersoze

Armchair said:


> One does not need radar range of the onboard radar. By now ppl should know this. One can simply use off board sensors. Important thing is to be data linked.
> 
> Come on ppl, you can't behave like kids forever. Let's take our discussion quality up a notch


Not sure if the sd10 has that facility

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## CHI RULES

araz said:


> I think the Ps are more or less retired barring one squadron or so. The pgs stay (3 squadrons or thereabout) and will be with us for a few years yet.
> A



Sir what is radar range against Air targets of F7PG.


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## fatman17

CHI RULES said:


> Sir, what is radar range of F7PG, the latest version of F7 in use by Bangaldesh Air Force has reportedly radar range only up to 80 KM so it can't fully utilize BVR capability of SD10.
> 
> 
> Sir in aggressive role one should expect more losses as compared to defensive one.
> 
> Can any one explain how many squadrons of F7s are still operational as in the past it is mentioned that all F7s have been retired from active duty except for training purposes meanwhile F7PGs are active.


Eventually JF17s will replace the F7 and mirage squadrons but that is ongoing and it is not going to be one to one replacement. F7pg and Mirage ROSE squadrons will remain active /frontline for the near to medium term. F7s like the F6 and A5s will go to reserves "last ditch " situation (God Forbid ).

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## aliyusuf

When the range of an active radar homing AAMs is stated, it is the max kinetic flight range of the missile under the most favorable launch speed and altitude.

It's not how far it's on board tiny radar can see. The on board radar seeker cannot see farther than 20 to 25 km usually. It is at this range the missile becomes a true fire and forget missile.

Apart from that, not utilizing it's max kinetic range doesn't keep it from being used to the range limit of the FCR of the F-7P/PG (if at all it is integrated to be used).

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## araz

CHI RULES said:


> Sir, what is radar range of F7PG, the latest version of F7 in use by Bangaldesh Air Force has reportedly radar range only up to 80 KM so it can't fully utilize BVR capability of SD10.
> 
> 
> Sir in aggressive role one should expect more losses as compared to defensive one.
> 
> Can any one explain how many squadrons of F7s are still operational as in the past it is mentioned that all F7s have been retired from active duty except for training purposes meanwhile F7PGs are active.





CHI RULES said:


> Sir what is radar range against Air targets of F7PG.


Pg radar is Grifo S7 with a rangeof around50 kms from open source literature.
A

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## hassan1



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## Armchair

Keysersoze said:


> Not sure if the sd10 has that facility


It would be ridiculous if it didn't. Bvr missiles in modern combat is guided very often by off board sensors.
These are important considerations because if we act dumb about it we won't be able to effectively utilise the f7s in combat. Something they need to be given the present situation. If war breaks out, f7s armed with sd10as or pl15s, datalinked to awacs can play a very useful role. 

But if we become nihilistic and keep discussing the range of the radar in the f7s it would just be a case of "stupid is what stupid does"


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## Tank131

So the original F-7M had a british sky ranger radar which had a range of 15km. These were upgraded to the F-7MP also known in PAF as the F-7P with the FIAR (now leonardo/selex) Grifo-7. This radar has a range of 55km and these gave the ability to fire the Aim-9L. The Grifo 7 was then replaced by the Grifo 7 mk II which increased then scan angles by +/- 20 degrees. In the PGs there is the FIAR Grifo MG radar which also has 55km range but +/- 30 degrees and better ecm/eccm and reportedly a range of 60km.

With respect to BVR from them, its certainly a possibility but that would require sd-10 codes again be handed over to Italy for integration. The Grifo is afterall an Italian and not Chinese FCR. That is never going to happen. Ideally if you wanted to make them BVR capable you would have gone for something like Sparrow, MICA or even R-darter (i doubt PAF will be allowed or want to put AMRAAM on it). But the SD-10 is NOT going to happen.

As far as sd-10 being able to be targeted and guided by AWAC to take full use of the range, it is possible with datalinks which i am very sure exist between SD-10 and ZDKs, but again the F-7s cant really host tge missile per se.

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## denel

Tank131 said:


> So the original F-7M had a british sky ranger radar which had a range of 15km. These were upgraded to the F-7MP also known in PAF as the F-7P with the FIAR (now leonardo/selex) Grifo-7. This radar has a range of 55km and these gave the ability to fire the Aim-9L. The Grifo 7 was then replaced by the Grifo 7 mk II which increased then scan angles by +/- 20 degrees. In the PGs there is the FIAR Grifo MG radar which also has 55km range but +/- 30 degrees and better ecm/eccm and reportedly a range of 60km.
> 
> With respect to BVR from them, its certainly a possibility but that would require sd-10 codes again be handed over to Italy for integration. The Grifo is afterall an Italian and not Chinese FCR. That is never going to happen. Ideally if you wanted to make them BVR capable you would have gone for something like Sparrow, MICA or even R-darter (i doubt PAF will be allowed or want to put AMRAAM on it). But the SD-10 is NOT going to happen.
> 
> As far as sd-10 being able to be targeted and guided by AWAC to take full use of the range, it is possible with datalinks which i am very sure exist between SD-10 and ZDKs, but again the F-7s cant really host tge missile per se.


correction, AIM-9 series is heat seaking and does not require radar

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## Tank131

denel said:


> correction, AIM-9 series is heat seaking and does not require radar



That is only partially true. While you can use the weapon without a radar, the seeker of the missile is the one finding the target. That means the seeker searches the sky, essentially looking for a bright/hot target to go chase and when it gets tone, you fire. A fire control radar mated to the missile (which requires integration of the weapon and the fire control radar like there was between Grifo 7 and AIM-9 ) speeds up the process. Essentially the FCR finds the target and in conjunction with the NAS essentially tells the IR missile where to look (in order to quickly find the target and get tone). I know you are probably aware of this but for other members who may not understand the how the entire system works i dug this up. Its a good read.

https://migflug.com/jetflights/how-fighter-jets-target-and-lock-on-enemy-jets/

https://www.quora.com/How-is-a-missile-fired-from-a-fighter-jet-How-does-it-function-exactly

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## araz

Tank131 said:


> That is only partially true. While you can use the weapon without a radar, the seeker of the missile is the one finding the target. That means the seeker searches the sky, essentially looking for a bright/hot target to go chase and when it gets tone, you fire. A fire control radar mated to the missile (which requires integration of the weapon and the fire control radar like there was between Grifo 7 and AIM-9 ) speeds up the process. Essentially the FCR finds the target and in conjunction with the NAS essentially tells the IR missile where to look (in order to quickly find the target and get tone). I know you are probably aware of this but for other members who may not understand the how the entire system works i dug this up. Its a good read.
> 
> https://migflug.com/jetflights/how-fighter-jets-target-and-lock-on-enemy-jets/
> 
> https://www.quora.com/How-is-a-missile-fired-from-a-fighter-jet-How-does-it-function-exactly


Is it not true that PAC Kamra was assembling these radars in house. If so they would have gotten the radar source codes.SD10A are already in PAF and integrated with JFT. If hte integration is done in houseI dont think the Chinese would have any objection to releasing the codes for SD10A for PAF.
On that basis I say we MAY have integration of SD10A on the pgs

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## PakShaheen79

araz said:


> Is it not true that PAC Kamra was assembling these radars in house. If so they would have gotten the radar source codes.SD10A are already in PAF and integrated with JFT. If hte integration is done in houseI dont think the Chinese would have any objection to releasing the codes for SD10A for PAF.
> On that basis I say we MAY have integration of SD10A on the pgs



I think it is true what you are saying but the firmware which controls the hardware comes in assembled/compiled form as a chip or software to be installed. (Like a BIOS software) ... unless we have source code of that software in its native programming language and minds able to alter that code, integration of SD-10 on PGs would remain a distinct dream. But I like that idea that why don't we look for a compatible missile instead from a European source.

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## araz

PakShaheen79 said:


> I think it is true what you are saying but the firmware which controls the hardware comes in assembled/compiled form as a chip or software to be installed. (Like a BIOS software) ... unless we have source code of that software in its native programming language and minds able to alter that code, integration of SD-10 on PGs would remain a distinct dream. But I like that idea that why don't we look for a compatible missile instead from a European source.


If grifo 7 was being produced in PAC I think they will have the source codes of the system. It is not cutting edge tech anymore and Leonardo would release the source codes. Paklands have many little gems sitting in quiet cubby holes that can work wonders given half a chance. So I think it is likely to have happened. However like you I have no confirmation of this one way or another.
A

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## hassan1



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## Blueskiez 2001

any news about the Egyptian Mirages?


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## messiach

Good. CKKB-XX firmware controls the embedded kernel. This is replaceable with native firmware written in C. There is no such thing as codes or source codes or pin codes or key switches. @araz 



PakShaheen79 said:


> I think it is true what you are saying but the firmware which controls the hardware comes in assembled/compiled form as a chip or software to be installed. (Like a BIOS software) ... unless we have source code of that software in its native programming language and minds able to alter that code, integration of SD-10 on PGs would remain a distinct dream. But I like that idea that why don't we look for a compatible missile instead from a European source.

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## Dil Pakistan

messiach said:


> Good. CKKB-XX firmware controls the embedded kernel. This is replaceable with native firmware written in C. There is no such thing as codes or source codes or pin codes or key switches. @araz



or a "Kill Switch" ??


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## Tank131

messiach said:


> Good. CKKB-XX firmware controls the embedded kernel. This is replaceable with native firmware written in C. There is no such thing as codes or source codes or pin codes or key switches. @araz



I think then the integration of SD-10A should be possible. In the Indo-Pak theater though, with such close proximity and with the plan for over 150 JF-17 and over 75 F-16, im not sure it is worth it for F-7 which is on its way out. That being said there are dual ejector racks for Mig-21bis wvr missile and i have seen load outs of 4 wvr missiles and 2 bvr missiles with 1 large centerline fuel tank so in such a configuration, 2 sd-10 and 2-4 aim-9/pl5s could be doable, albeit it would have almost no legs to stay in a fight. Even if all that was doable, lets look how the super dooper Mig-21bis (which for all intents and purposes is similar to F-7PG with somewhat better EW capabilities) did against F-16. It was trounced before even firing a single missile. Not sure of the viability in pitched battles against mki, m2k, or rafale. It is fine in the current loading for dealing with point defense against strike packages so why exert the effort for SD-10? Your thoughts?


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## syed_yusuf

Why is paf not going not going into aggressive posture and attacking across loc


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## mingle

syed_yusuf said:


> Why is paf not going not going into aggressive posture and attacking across loc


War is always last resort not ur first just relax and play duel its test match not 20/20


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## syed_yusuf

mingle said:


> War is always last resort not ur first just relax and play duel its test match not 20/20


Not enough done to pressurize Bharat 

I am afraid the kashmiri will run out of steam


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## mingle

syed_yusuf said:


> Not enough done to pressurize Bharat
> 
> I am afraid the kashmiri will run out of steam


72yrs they didn't will not now


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## PakShaheen79

messiach said:


> Good. CKKB-XX firmware controls the embedded kernel. This is replaceable with native firmware written in C. There is no such thing as codes or source codes or pin codes or key switches. @araz



Firmware and embedded Kernel ... Both are software stored in Read Only Memory. Nevertheless, they are program routines written in low level programming language. So source codes are very much real. What you are proposing here implies that every missile and weapon can be integrated on every other plane. This is not that simple.


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## The Eagle

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1164889397894008832
Found it interesting for the ideas of, foreign source integration can be done?

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## messiach

Firmware is interoperable between OX kernel and card/device/devices.


PakShaheen79 said:


> Firmware and embedded Kernel ... Both are software stored in Read Only Memory.



Either C or scala for DFPR. No assemblers.


PakShaheen79 said:


> Nevertheless, they are program routines written in low level programming language.



No such proposal!! Not my implication.


PakShaheen79 said:


> What you are proposing here implies that every missile and weapon can be integrated on every other plane.



Firmware operates between FCS, Av & multiple rader kernel(s) and peripherals. Multiple firmwares operates singly, in tandem or multiplex eg. mirage upgarde.



Tank131 said:


> I think then the integration of SD-10A should be possible. In the Indo-Pak theater though, with such close proximity and with the plan for over 150 JF-17 and over 75 F-16, im not sure it is worth it for F-7 which is on its way out. That being said there are dual ejector racks for Mig-21bis wvr missile and i have seen load outs of 4 wvr missiles and 2 bvr missiles with 1 large centerline fuel tank so in such a configuration, 2 sd-10 and 2-4 aim-9/pl5s could be doable, albeit it would have almost no legs to stay in a fight. Even if all that was doable, lets look how the super dooper Mig-21bis (which for all intents and purposes is similar to F-7PG with somewhat better EW capabilities) did against F-16. It was trounced before even firing a single missile. Not sure of the viability in pitched battles against mki, m2k, or rafale. It is fine in the current loading for dealing with point defense against strike packages so why exert the effort for SD-10? Your thoughts?

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## mingle

The Eagle said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1164889397894008832
> Found it interesting for the ideas of, foreign source integration can be done?


Pak should look towards defence ties with Israel like other islamic countries r doing


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## MystryMan

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1164868776963133441"

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## The Eagle

mingle said:


> Pak should look towards defence ties with Israel like other islamic countries r doing



Let's not get into a useless conversation here in this thread especially since the post was for some different idea.

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## The Eagle




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## PakShaheen79

J-16 ... now that's interesting. PAF do need few of these Flankers in CCS to perfect our tactics against MKIs. Chinese Flankers are only possibility of getting them. Russian will be a non-starter.

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## Tumba

PakShaheen79 said:


> J-16 ... now that's interesting. PAF do need few of these Flankers in CCS to perfect our tactics against MKIs. Chinese Flankers are only possibility of getting them. Russian will be a non-starter.



J-16 is on much higher tech. tier than MKIs, practicing with one will give PAF foresight into any MKI upgrades coming after so called super sukhio upgrade then also most probably MKI upgrades wont be with AESA like J-16


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## araz

mingle said:


> Pak should look towards defence ties with Israel like other islamic countries r doing


You wont get much bite from that fish. The two are in direct confrontation if not now then in the next decade. A few deals on the black market aside you wont get response crom them.
A

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## TsAr

araz said:


> You wont get much bite from that fish. The two are in direct confrontation if not now then in the next decade. A few deals on the black market aside you wont get response crom them.
> A


Govt to govt there would be no issues, but who is going to make the mullah in our country understand that it's the benefit of Pakistan to have diplomatic ties with Israel


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## araz

TsAr said:


> Govt to govt there would be no issues, but who is going to make the mullah in our country understand that it's the benefit of Pakistan to have diplomatic ties with Israel


It would be political and strategic suicide in my very humble view. We are the 2 sides ofa coin and being diametrically opposite we arebound to clash at some stage. We are a big thorne in the side of Israel and until and unless we are defanged the greater designs cannot be enacted. Best to keep away.
A

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## TsAr

araz said:


> It would be political and strategic suicide in my very humble view. We are the 2 sides ofa coin and being diametrically opposite we arebound to clash at some stage. We are a big thorne in the side of Israel and until and unless we are defanged the greater designs cannot be enacted. Best to keep away.
> A


We are enemies with India but we do have diplomatic ties them, same case with India and China or USA. I don't expect to be die hard friends with them but I don't see any reason why we should not have diplomatic ties with him. We should at least engage with them so that they don't fall into India's hand


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## Code_Geass

TsAr said:


> We are enemies with India but we do have diplomatic ties them, same case with India and China or USA. I don't expect to be die hard friends with them but I don't see any reason why we should not have diplomatic ties with him. We should at least engage with them so that they don't fall into India's hand


you are being so naive, we don't recognize ISRAEL


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## nomi007

is Paf is developing 
*Small Diameter Bomb*
or not?


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## araz

TsAr said:


> We are enemies with India but we do have diplomatic ties them, same case with India and China or USA. I don't expect to be die hard friends with them but I don't see any reason why we should not have diplomatic ties with him. We should at least engage with them so that they don't fall into India's hand


India is not half as dangerous as Israel is. In fact India is jumping up and down based on the support of others. This is part of the big game and will rsult in the formation of Greater Israel. Our Prophet taught us the story of the three bulls and the Lion . How quickly we have forgotten this. Look I have based my logic on what I have learnt kn the Quran and my very very limited understanding of the Hadeeth. I will end by saying that Israel is cureently and very unfortunately in bed with a lot of Arab states. However no one is a bigger enemy of the muslims than the Zionist state of Israel. I would agakn clarify that there is a distinct difference between the jews and the zionists( could be jews and non Jews and my problem is with the Zionists. I have a lot of respect for a lot of Jewish peolle skme of whom are my personal friends.
A

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## mingle

The Eagle said:


> Let's not get into a useless conversation here in this thread especially since the post was for some different idea.


OK boss


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## The Eagle

Off-topic discussion ends here and no more posts.

Regards,

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## air marshal

Thunder B (03) variant in Pakistan skies!


http://falcons.pk/photo/JF-17B-Thunder/2040

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## fatman17

Pakistan, Chinese Air Forces Start Joint Exercise Amid Rising Conflict With India
Sunday, August 25, 2019
By: Eurasia Times 

Source Link: CLICK HERE



Chinese and Pakistani Air Forces have commenced joint training programs in northwest China according to Chinese air force sources. The joint training, code-named “Shaheen (eagle) VIII,” is the eighth of its kind between the two countries since it was first launched in March 2011. 

The annual joint training does not target any third party, and aims to improve training standards of the two air forces through mutual learning, the sources said.

The PLAAF and PAF have held regular drills since March 2011 with the first Shaheen exercise held in Pakistan. The second training exercise took place in the Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region in western China in September 2013, the third was held in Punjab, Pakistan in May 2014.




Last year, the joint training between the air forces was held in Pakistan which was participated by a contingent of the Chinese air force, comprising combat pilots, air defence controllers, and technical ground crew along with fighter jets, bombers and early warning AWACS planes.

The Pakistan Air Force heavily relies on its fleet of around 70 U.S.-made F-16 fighter jets in its anti-terrorist operations in Pakistan and counter-balance to Indian rapidly increasingly fleet of modern fighter jets. Whether any F-16 aircraft will participate in the training exercise is unknown.

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## Syed1.

PakShaheen79 said:


> Firmware and embedded Kernel ... Both are software stored in Read Only Memory. Nevertheless, they are program routines written in low level programming language. So source codes are very much real. What you are proposing here implies that every missile and weapon can be integrated on every other plane. This is not that simple.



On a more general note kernels and firmware are generally written in C and the compiler converts it into assembly language and then into machine code. Not sure how it works in missiles and weapon systems. 



Source: I work as an embedded engineer


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## Inception-06

air marshal said:


> Thunder B (03) variant in Pakistan skies!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://falcons.pk/photo/JF-17B-Thunder/2040



Any differents in designe compared to the previous prototypes?


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## Path-Finder

a short and sweat interview.


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## hassan1




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## fatman17

Here twoPL-9C AAMs are seen being carried by a F-7PG fighter to be delivered to PAF. However PAF eventually decided to procure AIM-9Ls for its F-7PG fleet instead.

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## fatman17

PL15 to be delivered to the PAF?

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## fatman17

fatman17 said:


> PL15 to be delivered to the PAF?


PL-15


It was first rumored in 2011 that 607 Institute wasdeveloping the nextgeneration of active radar homing LRAAM dubbed PL-15 replacing PL-12 which is comparable to American AIM-120D . The missile was initially speculated as a PL-12variant (PL-12C?) but it appears to be a new design. PL-15 features redesigned stabilizing fins and tail control fins with smaller wingspans in order to fit into the internal weapon bay of J-20 (up to 4). A major improvement of the missile is a new a dual pulse rocket motor which could extend its range up to 200km. Its two-way datalink and a new active/passive dual mode AESA seeker onboard will give it an excellent ECCM capability against severe jamming. A PL-15prototype was first seen underneath the wing of a J-11B testbed in 2012. In 2013 PL-15 was first seen inside J-20's main internal weapon bay during its weapon integration tests. It was reported by US intelligence thatPL-15 was successfully test-fired from a J-11B in 2015. In 2016 PL-15 started to be carried by J-10C, J-11B and by J-16 a year later. The further improved version (PL-20?) was rumored to have been under development. It might feature a streamlined missile body with a smaller diameter so that additional missiles can be fitted into the internal weapon bay of J-20 (up to 6). The latest rumor (March 2019) claimed that PL-15 has been cleared for export as PL-15E.

- Last Updated 3/21/19

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## fatman17

fatman17 said:


> PL-15
> 
> 
> It was first rumored in 2011 that 607 Institute wasdeveloping the nextgeneration of active radar homing LRAAM dubbed PL-15 replacing PL-12 which is comparable to American AIM-120D . The missile was initially speculated as a PL-12variant (PL-12C?) but it appears to be a new design. PL-15 features redesigned stabilizing fins and tail control fins with smaller wingspans in order to fit into the internal weapon bay of J-20 (up to 4). A major improvement of the missile is a new a dual pulse rocket motor which could extend its range up to 200km. Its two-way datalink and a new active/passive dual mode AESA seeker onboard will give it an excellent ECCM capability against severe jamming. A PL-15prototype was first seen underneath the wing of a J-11B testbed in 2012. In 2013 PL-15 was first seen inside J-20's main internal weapon bay during its weapon integration tests. It was reported by US intelligence thatPL-15 was successfully test-fired from a J-11B in 2015. In 2016 PL-15 started to be carried by J-10C, J-11B and by J-16 a year later. The further improved version (PL-20?) was rumored to have been under development. It might feature a streamlined missile body with a smaller diameter so that additional missiles can be fitted into the internal weapon bay of J-20 (up to 6). The latest rumor (March 2019) claimed that PL-15 has been cleared for export as PL-15E.
> 
> - Last Updated 3/21/19


PL15

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## Code_Geass

how long w will use F7 PG and how many PG we have?


fatman17 said:


> Here twoPL-9C AAMs are seen being carried by a F-7PG fighter to be delivered to PAF. However PAF eventually decided to procure AIM-9Ls for its F-7PG fleet instead.
> View attachment 576270


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## fatman17

Code_Geass said:


> how long w will use F7 PG and how many PG we have?


Roughly 60 aircraft minus a few attrition losses will soldier on as point defence aircraft for a few more years.

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## Fieldmarshal

Very high ac activity being witnessed right now around ajk region.

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## alee92nawaz

Fieldmarshal said:


> Very high ac activity being witnessed right now around ajk region.


Routine

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## Inception-06

fatman17 said:


> Here twoPL-9C AAMs are seen being carried by a F-7PG fighter to be delivered to PAF. However PAF eventually decided to procure AIM-9Ls for its F-7PG fleet instead.
> View attachment 576270



whats different advantages/disadvantage between with missiles?


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## loanranger

⚡JF -17 THUNDER ⚡Promotional video .

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## syed_yusuf

fatman17 said:


> Roughly 60 aircraft minus a few attrition losses will soldier on as point defence aircraft for a few more years.



as of today PAF operates ~53 examples of F-7PG in 3 squadrons


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## khanasifm

Pl-15 has clipped wings reducing wingspan for internal carriage in j-20 weapons bay 4 can be carried it will also help on other platforms like jf for dual carriage launchers giving more clearance and capability of carrying 800/1100 litres drops tanks along with missiles or I think other options is f-7 style supersonic drop tanks and dual launchers with sd-10 

Guessing here based on available pic on web

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## Ghost 125

Code_Geass said:


> how long w will use F7 PG and how many PG we have?


4 PGs/Ps squadrons, that roughly makes 60

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## denel

fatman17 said:


> Roughly 60 aircraft minus a few attrition losses will soldier on as point defence aircraft for a few more years.


PG is a good aircraft over all and requires low maintenance. For what it does and brings; there is no better substitute.

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## Cuirassier

syed_yusuf said:


> as of today PAF operates ~53 examples of F-7PG in 3 squadrons


AFAIK, 45 F7PGs and 6 FT7PGs.

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## mingle

TF141 said:


> AFAIK, 45 F7PGs and 6 FT7PGs.


These PG s need to be replace 27feb proved mig 21 derivatives are obsolete in modern era Dog fight


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## Code_Geass

Agree but we atill have too many fighters to replace 60 pg and same nos mirages 120 more jf 17s??


mingle said:


> These PG s need to be replace 27feb proved mig 21 derivatives are obsolete in modern era Dog fight

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## mingle

Code_Geass said:


> Agree but we atill have too many fighters to replace 60 pg and same nos mirages 120 more jf 17s??


Yeh but mirages are upgraded along for ground attack only these Mig 21 family is obsolete both sides of border I don't think Indians will Pitch them again against PAF


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## aliyusuf

TF141 said:


> AFAIK, 45 F7PGs and 6 FT7PGs.


48 F-7PG and 9 FT-7PG were purchased in 2001-2 
5 F-7PG and 3 FT-7PG have been lost due to accidents.
Remaining are 43 F-7PGs and 6 FT-7PG

There were rumors of acquiring additional 11 F-7PGs, but never substantiated to my knowledge.

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## Code_Geass

It might be we only have jf 17s and f-16s in 2030
Which seems very unlikely
But i dont see project azm will be able to give a 5th generation by then..


mingle said:


> Yeh but mirages are upgraded along for ground attack only these Mig 21 family is obsolete both sides of border I don't think Indians will Pitch them again against PAF

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Code_Geass said:


> It might be we only have jf 17s and f-16s in 2030
> Which seems very unlikely
> But i dont see project azm will be able to give a 5th generation by then..


In the past, the concern with not getting new fighters was that we'd miss out on key capabilities. But with the JF-17, we're able to access those capabilities right away. So, even if the F-16s are stuck as-is, we can at least push AESA radars to the JF-17 (plus other technologies).

The JF-17 solves 80% of the problem and, defensively speaking, we can add as many of those as we can afford. But the remaining 20% has to do with offensive capability, which we've kept putting off due to a lack of options and cash. That's where Project Azm or, more specifically, the PAF's scope for an FGFA (twin engine) comes in.

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## Code_Geass

Yeah i agree, do you think the design that was painted on tail of our c 130 recently has anything to do with project azm??


Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> In the past, the concern with not getting new fighters was that we'd miss out on key capabilities. But with the JF-17, we're able to access those capabilities right away. So, even if the F-16s are stuck as-is, we can at least push AESA radars to the JF-17 (plus other technologies).
> 
> The JF-17 solves 80% of the problem and, defensively speaking, we can add as many of those as we can afford. But the remaining 20% has to do with offensive capability, which we've kept putting off due to a lack of options and cash. That's where Project Azm or, more specifically, the PAF's scope for an FGFA (twin engine) comes in.

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## Code_Geass

Btw work on quwa.org has slowed down alot recently


Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> In the past, the concern with not getting new fighters was that we'd miss out on key capabilities. But with the JF-17, we're able to access those capabilities right away. So, even if the F-16s are stuck as-is, we can at least push AESA radars to the JF-17 (plus other technologies).
> 
> The JF-17 solves 80% of the problem and, defensively speaking, we can add as many of those as we can afford. But the remaining 20% has to do with offensive capability, which we've kept putting off due to a lack of options and cash. That's where Project Azm or, more specifically, the PAF's scope for an FGFA (twin engine) comes in.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Code_Geass said:


> Yeah i agree, do you think the design that was painted on tail of our c 130 recently has anything to do with project azm??


It's probably the author's vision. Thus far, all we know is that the CAS said that the PAF's interested in a twin-engine design with supercruise and room for directed energy weapons. Moreover, it has to be ITAR free (i.e. 100% free of any controlled US components/subsystems). The PAF is open to partnerships, so it's keeping an eye on the TF-X, but I imagine the FC-31 and/or a new Chengdu project are also under consideration.

@JamD the confusing thing about Azm is that "next-gen" doesn't have to be confined to an FGFA program. You can, in theory anyways, continue working on the JF-17 as-is and evolve its design. Even HAL is doing as much with their Tejas Mk2. Likewise, one of South Korea's KFX proposals was basically an up-worked T-50. 

I wonder, at some point, if the PAF basically opted to bifurcate the JF-17 and FGFA into separate streams. So rather than the FGFA replacing the JF-17, the JF-17 line continues along an evolutionary track of some kind. That may also reconcile some of @messiach earlier points re: Azm being a natural next step from JF-17 (as well as the previous CAS' statements about Azm's design being done with Chinese help, etc). 

Heck, if we take this to one natural conclusion, the twin-engine FGFA might just end up being more of an import or consortium project, while Azm = JF-17 NG.

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## Danishwer

denel said:


> PG is a good aircraft over all and requires low maintenance. For what it does and brings; there is no better substitute.



Can we compare the Indian Mig-21 Bison to Pakistani F7PG. Which one is superior? does IAF Bison has similar Flight Time and Radius?

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## denel

Danishwer said:


> Can we compare the Indian Mig-21 Bison to Pakistani F7PG. Which one is superior? does IAF Bison has similar Flight Time and Radius?


PG any time; plus the entire flight envelope of PG is very close to F-16A/B

http://paf-eagles.blogspot.com/2011/04/f-7-mig-21-in-paf-service.html

You can scroll towards the end to read tufails' view.

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## JamD

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It's probably the author's vision. Thus far, all we know is that the CAS said that the PAF's interested in a twin-engine design with supercruise and room for directed energy weapons. Moreover, it has to be ITAR free (i.e. 100% free of any controlled US components/subsystems). The PAF is open to partnerships, so it's keeping an eye on the TF-X, but I imagine the FC-31 and/or a new Chengdu project are also under consideration.
> 
> @JamD the confusing thing about Azm is that "next-gen" doesn't have to be confined to an FGFA program. You can, in theory anyways, continue working on the JF-17 as-is and evolve its design. Even HAL is doing as much with their Tejas Mk2. Likewise, one of South Korea's KFX proposals was basically an up-worked T-50.
> 
> I wonder, at some point, if the PAF basically opted to bifurcate the JF-17 and FGFA into separate streams. So rather than the FGFA replacing the JF-17, the JF-17 line continues along an evolutionary track of some kind. That may also reconcile some of @messiach earlier points re: Azm being a natural next step from JF-17 (as well as the previous CAS' statements about Azm's design being done with Chinese help, etc).
> 
> Heck, if we take this to one natural conclusion, the twin-engine FGFA might just end up being more of an import or consortium project, while Azm = JF-17 NG.



It's hard to debate something like this. The problem is how many things do you have to change about the JF-17 before it stops being a JF-17. There's no objectively true answer to this question. Everyone will have their own metric. For me as soon as you change the number of engines that's a new aircraft. But someone will point out that F-5 and F-20 are basically the same aircraft.

PAF's future procurement plans are unclear, this much I can agree on. Azm could might as well turn out to be a JF-17NG as you called it. Or it could be the actual NGF. Not sure. We will have to be patient.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

JamD said:


> It's hard to debate something like this. The problem is how many things do you have to change about the JF-17 before it stops being a JF-17. There's no objectively true answer to this question. Everyone will have their own metric. For me as soon as you change the number of engines that's a new aircraft. But someone will point out that F-5 and F-20 are basically the same aircraft.
> 
> PAF's future procurement plans are unclear, this much I can agree on. Azm could might as well turn out to be a JF-17NG as you called it. Or it could be the actual NGF. Not sure. We will have to be patient.


I agree. In any case, as much as we're all whining about the lack of new fighters, the JF-17 Block-3 is a serviceable solution. My concern now is less to do with the aircraft itself, and whether we'll have enough money to build a large enough fleet. The current outlay is 76 (50 B3s + 26 Bs), but retrofitting the B2s could bring 126 AESA jets.

Either way, the difference of the JF-17 is the difference between having the MiG-21 in numbers instead of the F-6 and F-86 during the 1971 War. 

The one plausible variable is upgrading the F-16s with an AESA radar. If anything, I'd say that is the PAF's main priority aside from the JF-17 as that could result in up to 76 additional AESA radar-equipped jets.

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## JamD

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I agree. In any case, as much as we're all whining about the lack of new fighters, the JF-17 Block-3 is a serviceable solution. My concern now is less to do with the aircraft itself, and whether we'll have enough money to build a large enough fleet. The current outlay is 76 (50 B3s + 26 Bs), but retrofitting the B2s could bring 126 AESA jets.
> 
> Either way, the difference of the JF-17 is the difference between having the MiG-21 in numbers instead of the F-6 and F-86 during the 1971 War.
> 
> The one plausible variable is upgrading the F-16s with an AESA radar. If anything, I'd say that is the PAF's main priority aside from the JF-17 as that could result in up to 76 additional AESA radar-equipped jets.


Here's to hoping the economy picks up in the coming 5-10 years.

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## khanasifm

denel said:


> PG is a good aircraft over all and requires low maintenance. For what it does and brings; there is no better substitute.



Next batch of 76ish jf-17 including dual seaters will replace all 3 pg and another mirage sqn 

Or approximately 4 sqns

Another ~100 will be needed to replace all mirage sqn

Jf finally tally is expected to be around 250 plus unless another type is is also indicted


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## MastanKhan

JamD said:


> It's hard to debate something like this. The problem is how many things do you have to change about the JF-17 before it stops being a JF-17. There's no objectively true answer to this question. Everyone will have their own metric. For me as soon as you change the number of engines that's a new aircraft. But someone will point out that F-5 and F-20 are basically the same aircraft.
> 
> PAF's future procurement plans are unclear, this much I can agree on. Azm could might as well turn out to be a JF-17NG as you called it. Or it could be the actual NGF. Not sure. We will have to be patient.



Hi,

If the right engine was available—- a single engine fgfa would be a perfect upgrade for the JF 17 with twin tails and next gen features.
That would be the least expensive way forward.

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## fatman17

TF141 said:


> AFAIK, 45 F7PGs and 6 FT7PGs.


Yes the original number was 57, so 4 attritions

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## fatman17

mingle said:


> These PG s need to be replace 27feb proved mig 21 derivatives are obsolete in modern era Dog fight


Depends on the pilot skills

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## fatman17

Code_Geass said:


> Agree but we atill have too many fighters to replace 60 pg and same nos mirages 120 more jf 17s??


These 180 will not be replaced one for one. Replacement may be around 90 because of the superior nature of the JFT.

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## mingle

fatman17 said:


> Depends on the pilot skills


Yeh @fatman17 but it's an old design very less room for upgrades passed her generation.

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## fatman17

Code_Geass said:


> It might be we only have jf 17s and f-16s in 2030
> Which seems very unlikely
> But i dont see project azm will be able to give a 5th generation by then..


Don't underestimate project azm, it's a major priority.


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## fatman17

Code_Geass said:


> Yeah i agree, do you think the design that was painted on tail of our c 130 recently has anything to do with project azm??


Someone's imagination running wild.

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## fatman17

mingle said:


> Yeh @fatman17 but it's an old design very less room for upgrades passed her generation.


Agreed completely

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## ziaulislam

fatman17 said:


> These 180 will not be replaced one for one. Replacement may be around 90 because of the superior nature of the JFT.


and higher operational capacity at any given time...
yet PAF should get more fighters..
if we learn anything form feb, its that airforce will be the key for any future conflict, the make or break thing

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## mingle

ziaulislam said:


> and higher operational capacity at any given time...
> yet PAF should get more fighters..
> if we learn anything form feb, its that airforce will be the key for any future conflict, the make or break thing


I believe we need Atleast 500 to 600 jets half the size of IAF Atleast.

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## ziaulislam

mingle said:


> I believe we need Atleast 500 to 600 jets half the size of IAF Atleast.


getting 400 will be a miracle ! by 2025 PAF will have 180 jf-17 And ??f16s~76= 250 that really counts, which is about 100 short from what PAF needs to be(350+50 odd mirage5)..

i think PAF needs to work hard on getting an approval for used f16s...
seems the only possible choice ..i was expecting alot more after jordan deal but guess didnt worked out..
one possibility does exist if italy ends up giving a good deal on typhoons ..Italy is trying to pitch on older ones in europe at the same price as used f16s but associated cost , approval from member states and upgrades are too expensive

other option is more j10s on loans but i would rather wait and see if we can get a 5th gen fighter from china rather than j10..

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## mingle

ziaulislam said:


> getting 400 will be a miracle ! by 2025 PAF will have 180 jf-17 And ??f16s~76= 250 that really counts, which is about 100 short from what PAF needs to be(350+50 odd mirage5)..
> 
> i think PAF needs to work hard on getting an approval for used f16s...
> seems the only possible choice ..i was expecting alot more after jordan deal but guess didnt worked out..
> one possibility does exist if italy ends up giving a good deal on typhoons ..Italy is trying to pitch on older ones in europe at the same price as used f16s but associated cost , approval from member states and upgrades are too expensive
> 
> other option is more j10s on loans but i would rather wait and see if we can get a 5th gen fighter from china rather than j10..


Well to fight india we need Atleast 1-2 ratio I mean long war short war is different story but we should go J10 and effort for used F16s as many as we can.


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## ziaulislam

mingle said:


> Well to fight india we need Atleast 1-2 ratio I mean long war short war is different story but we should go J10 and effort for used F16s as many as we can.


gap is 100 figters(assuming we keep 60ish mirages flying till 2030-2033 and wait for fifth gen to replace them)

that 100 fighters can be filled by mix of thunders, f16s ideally if we get an approval ..if not PAF will have to see what else it can do..j10s?

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## mingle

ziaulislam said:


> gap is 100 figters(assuming we keep 60ish mirages flying till 2030-2033 and wait for fifth gen to replace them)
> 
> that 100 fighters can be filled by mix of thunders, f16s ideally if we get an approval ..if not PAF will have to see what else it can do..j10s?


Air Cheif met IK today I believe it's all about new planes or used one and more AIM 120 s along PL15s


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## Pakhtoon yum

ziaulislam said:


> *more j10s *on loans but i would rather wait and see if we can get a 5th gen fighter from china rather than j10..


Uhm..what? Since when did PAF have any j10s?


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## MystryMan

mingle said:


> I believe we need Atleast 500 to 600 jets half the size of IAF Atleast.


more likely 400-450 at max.
100-120 F-16 (If we able to get blk72 +used)
~200 JF-17
~100 M3/M5+ some PGs (maybe).
If we get some J-10 that would be bonus.

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## mingle

MystryMan said:


> more likely 400-450 at max.
> 100-120 F-16 (If we able to get blk72 +used)
> ~200 JF-17
> ~100 M3/M5+ some PGs (maybe).
> If we get some J-10 that would be bonus.


I agree but I talking against India in long war scenario we need some jetts at reserves.

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## ziaulislam

MystryMan said:


> more likely 400-450 at max.
> 100-120 F-16 (If we able to get blk72 +used)
> ~200 JF-17
> ~100 M3/M5+ some PGs (maybe).
> If we get some J-10 that would be bonus.


well thats the problem..those 50+ f16s...we aint getting any..cant count the chickens before they hatch
200 jf17 is plausible but with rate we are building them getting to 200 before 2025 will be challenging
rest 100 M3/M5 are more like 60 aircrafts due to their low operatabilty

PGs had 2000hr life frame..we are probably going to be pushing them beyond 2020

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## fatman17

ziaulislam said:


> and higher operational capacity at any given time...
> yet PAF should get more fighters..
> if we learn anything form feb, its that airforce will be the key for any future conflict, the make or break thing


There is a limit to how many combat squadrons the airforce can realistically have. 20 to 22 squadrons is their limit. What they need is more new generation fighters.


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## fatman17

mingle said:


> I believe we need Atleast 500 to 600 jets half the size of IAF Atleast.


Not possible


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## ACE OF THE AIR

ziaulislam said:


> getting 400 will be a miracle ! by 2025 PAF will have 180 jf-17 And ??f16s~76= 250 that really counts, which is about 100 short from what PAF needs to be(350+50 odd mirage5)..
> 
> i think PAF needs to work hard on getting an approval for used f16s...
> seems the only possible choice ..i was expecting alot more after jordan deal but guess didnt worked out..
> one possibility does exist if italy ends up giving a good deal on typhoons ..Italy is trying to pitch on older ones in europe at the same price as used f16s but associated cost , approval from member states and upgrades are too expensive
> 
> other option is more j10s on loans but i would rather wait and see if we can get a 5th gen fighter from china rather than j10..


The question that comes in my mind is for how long would PAF like to fly these 50-100 off the self fighters? 
IF PAF really is planning on getting quantities in access of 70 then they would require reserves as well as maintenance facilities which indeed would also add to the expenses. Even if the Italian offer PAF EFT at USD 10 mil. a pop other factors would increase the costs to around 35-40 mil. 

The only western solution that can be feasible for PAF is to procure either more F-16's or to persuade Trump to provide 50 F-15E's to have some sort of air superiority. 

For the price of USD 35-40mil PAF can have more JF-17's ordered directly from China.JF-17 Block II and B are in the same price tag. 50 JF-17 B can be used not as trainers but dedicated deep strike platforms. in addition 50-Block III can also be directly purchased providing aerial deniability against any Indian future wars. This would benefit PAF in the loger run. 

PAF could also procure FA-50 from South Korea which is also prices at USD35mil. This would seriously improve PAF's LIFT role and add up as light combat platform. This could potentially open up doors towards KFX program along with TFX and AZM going hand in hand. Chinese J-20 or J-31, US F-35 or any European fifth gen aircraft can be produced later on if need be.


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## fatman17

mingle said:


> Well to fight india we need Atleast 1-2 ratio I mean long war short war is different story but we should go J10 and effort for used F16s as many as we can.


PAF should really revisit the J10C situation and try to get excess EFTs from Italy.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

fatman17 said:


> What they need is more new generation fighters.


PAF could also procure FA-50 from South Korea which is also prices at USD35mil. This would seriously improve PAF's LIFT role and add up as light combat platform. This could potentially open up doors towards KFX program along with TFX and AZM going hand in hand. Chinese J-20 or J-31, US F-35 or any European fifth gen aircraft can be produced later on if need be.


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## GriffinsRule

fatman17 said:


> Yes the original number was 57, so 4 attritions


@aliyusuf @fatman17 
PAF initially ordered 40 that were delivered in two batches of 20 each. They arrived on Dec 17th and 20th 2001 in Karachi via Chinese ships. A third batch of 8 was ordered and delivered in early 2003 along with 6 FT-7PG under Hand-Shake IV. That enabled PAF to equip No.17 Tigers, No.23 Talons and No.20 Cheetahs squadrons. There was an initial requirement for up to 80 aircraft but there were no subsequent orders. There were some two seats ordered later on as attrition replacements in the later years as well.

As far as attrition goes, it is not easy to know if the crashes are of F-7P or F-7PG sometimes but as many as 10 F-7PGs and 4 FT-7PGs have crashed



ACE OF THE AIR said:


> PAF could also procure FA-50 from South Korea which is also prices at USD35mil. This would seriously improve PAF's LIFT role and add up as light combat platform. This could potentially open up doors towards KFX program along with TFX and AZM going hand in hand. Chinese J-20 or J-31, US F-35 or any European fifth gen aircraft can be produced later on if need be.


A LIFT jet should not cost more than our frontline fighter, in this case JF-17.


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## fatman17

JF-17B Fierce Dragon/Thunder


This tandem-seat trainer version wasdeveloped at the request of Pakistani AF, which also pre-ordered the first prototype. JF-17B is believed to have been based on the JF-17 Block II configuration with a IFR probe and an LED probe light installed on the starboard side of the forward fuselage. The aircraft features an enlarged and raised spine which creates additional space for flight instruments and fuel in order to compensate the space occupied by the rear cockpit. The aircraft also features a more swept vertical tail in order to reduce drag and to maintain the center of gravity. A new color LED landing light was installed above the front landing gear. A more powerful cockpit environmental control system has been installed as well to accommodate two pilots. More composite materials have been used in order to reduce the weight and to strengthen the structure. JF-17B is reportedly controlled by a new 3-axis digital FBW system replacing the old analog system. The aircraft is equipped with the same KLJ-7 PD fire-control radar and retain the same BVR as well as precision air-to-ground strike capabilities as JF-17 Block II. As the result JF-17B represents a very attractive option to foreign customers with limited budget and resources. Its length is 14.5m, height is 4.6m, TO weight is 9.4t, max external load is 4.6t. A model of the aircraft was first unveiled at the 2013 Paris Airshow by CATIC. The development started officially in 2014. The 01 prototype of JF-17B was constructed in December 2016 and conducted its firsttaxiing test on April 21, 2017. The JF-17BBC0001 prototype conducted its maiden flight on April 27, 2017. The JF-17B 02 prototype flew for the first time on December 7, 2017. Currently the 01 prototype (17-601) is conducting test flights at PAC with the pitot tube removed from the nose. The 03 prototype conducted its maiden flight on August 3rd, 2018. 26 were reportedly ordered by PAF, with the initial delivery in 2019. A recent rumor (November 2018) suggested that an EW variant (JF-17E?) has been proposed. The latest image (March 2019) indicated that first customer of JF-17B(M) (S/N 1707) turned out to be the Myanmar Air Force, which has been delivered to MAF.
- Last Updated 8/26/19

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## fatman17

GriffinsRule said:


> @aliyusuf @fatman17
> PAF initially ordered 40 that were delivered in two batches of 20 each. They arrived on Dec 17th and 20th 2001 in Karachi via Chinese ships. A third batch of 8 was ordered and delivered in early 2003 along with 6 FT-7PG under Hand-Shake IV. That enabled PAF to equip No.17 Tigers, No.23 Talons and No.20 Cheetahs squadrons. There was an initial requirement for up to 80 aircraft but there were no subsequent orders. There were some two seats ordered later on as attrition replacements in the later years as well.
> 
> As far as attrition goes, it is not easy to know if the crashes are of F-7P or F-7PG sometimes but as many as 10 F-7PGs and 4 FT-7PGs have crashed
> 
> 
> A LIFT jet should not cost more than our frontline fighter, in this case JF-17.


Pakistan ordered 57 F-7PGs and 9 FT-7PGs in early 2000. They have replaced J-6/Mig-19 tocounter India's Mig-21bis/Bison fleet. SomeF-7PGs were upgraded with VLOC antennas on top of the vertical tail fin as well as a newdorsal UHF/VHF antenna behind the cockpit.
As one can see different versions are floating around on the net.

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## ziaulislam

fatman17 said:


> There is a limit to how many combat squadrons the airforce can realistically have. 20 to 22 squadrons is their limit. What they need is more new generation fighters.


that translates to 400 fighters which previous chief quoted saying we need but no. of 4th gen fighters wont go beyond 260(180+77 unless uncle sam let us buy older f16s)



fatman17 said:


> PAF should really revisit the J10C situation and try to get excess EFTs from Italy.


italy as ~30ish trench 1 on sale and they have an offer of custom upgrade package ..question is how good is it and what will be the cost of acquisition and maintain those..(radar is made by italy for main fighter as well)..however, seems it has lost multiple times to f16 in tenders

other countries like Britain, Germany, Spain and Austria have several trench 1 that they want to get rid of..simply because they dont need them

if PAF manages to figure this out it can easily find 50+ good airframes at low cost..issue is cost of operation and upgrades as trench 1 is just an airsup aircraft

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## fatman17

ziaulislam said:


> that translates to 400 fighters which previous chief quoted saying we need but no. of 4th gen fighters wont go beyond 260(180+77 unless uncle sam let us buy older f16s)
> 
> 
> italy as ~30ish trench 1 on sale and they have an offer of custom upgrade package ..question is how good is it and what will be the cost of acquisition and maintain those..(radar is made by italy for main fighter as well)..however, seems it has lost multiple times to f16 in tenders
> 
> other countries like Britain, Germany, Spain and Austria have several trench 1 that they want to get rid of..simply because they dont need them
> 
> if PAF manages to figure this out it can easily find 50+ good airframes at low cost..issue is cost of operation and upgrades as trench 1 is just an airsup aircraft


Pray for Afghanistan peace and see the F16s flying here along with super cobras etc. Pakistan play your cards right!

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## GriffinsRule

fatman17 said:


> Pakistan ordered 57 F-7PGs and 9 FT-7PGs in early 2000. They have replaced J-6/Mig-19 tocounter India's Mig-21bis/Bison fleet. SomeF-7PGs were upgraded with VLOC antennas on top of the vertical tail fin as well as a newdorsal UHF/VHF antenna behind the cockpit.
> As one can see different versions are floating around on the net.



Thanks, but I believe your figures are incorrect. Maybe if you have a picture of any F-7PG with a serial number after 02-848 that you could post, I would take your figure of 57 aircraft into account. But as of yet I have not seen any so I am sticking to what I have read and gathered for now.

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## fatman17

GriffinsRule said:


> Thanks, but I believe your figures are incorrect. Maybe if you have a picture of any F-7PG with a serial number after 02-848 that you could post, I would take your figure of 57 aircraft into account. But as of yet I have not seen any so I am sticking to what I have read and gathered for now.



no worries. not that critical.

According to the South China Morning Post



, China has decided that the the Chengdu J-20 fighter will be developed further to operate from the country’s aircraft carriers. An anonymous military source says the Central Military Commission is favoring the J-20 over Shenyang FC-31. The J-20 was announced combat ready in July. It is listed in China’s latest national defense white paper as one of the new, high-tech weapons the Chinese military has commissioned.

Pakistan should take over the F31 program from china

Its first foreign customer is likely to be Pakistani AF, which has been planning its own 4th generation stealth fighter based on *FC-31* since late 2017.

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## fatman17

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> PAF could also procure FA-50 from South Korea which is also prices at USD35mil. This would seriously improve PAF's LIFT role and add up as light combat platform. This could potentially open up doors towards KFX program along with TFX and AZM going hand in hand. Chinese J-20 or J-31, US F-35 or any European fifth gen aircraft can be produced later on if need be.


FA50 is US sanctions prone unfortunately


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## fatman17

ziaulislam said:


> that translates to 400 fighters which previous chief quoted saying we need but no. of 4th gen fighters wont go beyond 260(180+77 unless uncle sam let us buy older f16s)
> 
> 
> italy as ~30ish trench 1 on sale and they have an offer of custom upgrade package ..question is how good is it and what will be the cost of acquisition and maintain those..(radar is made by italy for main fighter as well)..however, seems it has lost multiple times to f16 in tenders
> 
> other countries like Britain, Germany, Spain and Austria have several trench 1 that they want to get rid of..simply because they dont need them
> 
> if PAF manages to figure this out it can easily find 50+ good airframes at low cost..issue is cost of operation and upgrades as trench 1 is just an airsup aircraft


The Italian offer is ~€600m for 1squadron plus the upgrade and infrastructure etc.


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## ziaulislam

fatman17 said:


> The Italian offer is ~€600m for 1squadron plus the upgrade and infrastructure etc.


too expensive ..with upgrades it might cost the same as f16s..with f16s have 12000 hours airframe...
unless they come upwith sweat deal i doubt PAF will entertain it

i think PAF will only seriously consider it if it gets under 30M/aircraft with substantial upgrades to tranch1..if it does it wll probbaly look for 2-3/36-48 squardons ~3 billion dollars....

though seems even that would be tough for pakistan to cough up..we are in crisis never this big


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## Code_Geass

i dont think IAF has 1000+ fighter jets 


fatman17 said:


> Not possible


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## Ultima Thule

Code_Geass said:


> i dont think IAF has 1000+ fighter jets


750-800 fighter jets excluding support aircraft @Code_Geass


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## Nasr

fatman17 said:


> no worries. not that critical.
> 
> According to the South China Morning Post
> 
> 
> 
> 
> , China has decided that the the Chengdu J-20 fighter will be developed further to operate from the country’s aircraft carriers. An anonymous military source says the Central Military Commission is favoring the J-20 over Shenyang FC-31. The J-20 was announced combat ready in July. It is listed in China’s latest national defense white paper as one of the new, high-tech weapons the Chinese military has commissioned.
> 
> Pakistan should take over the F31 program from china
> 
> Its first foreign customer is likely to be Pakistani AF, which has been planning its own 4th generation stealth fighter based on *FC-31* since late 2017.
> 
> View attachment 576424



The FC-31 program would be the ideal choice for Pakistan Air Force, provided that the aircraft has engines which provide 120KN of thrust (each), have a lifespan of 2800-3000 hours and are made in China. Pakistan Air Force would need to induct these aircraft fast if it wants to operate stealth jets before the enemy does. Pakistan Air Force can take similar approach as they did with the Thunder, however with the FC-31, the program is already well underway, so Pakistan Air Force would look to incorporate as much as it's own specifications as possible by becoming a major stake holder in the program. Fleet size - 90/110 aircraft.

JF-17 Thunder's future Blocks, perhaps Block-IV or V, must have larger air-frame and must have more powerful engines which have longer lifespan. Anyone who says that it isn't possible, is living in neverland. Boeing's F/A-18 E/F Super Hornets, Saab's JAS-39 Gripen-NG and Mitsubishi's F-2 Kai would slap that argument that airframes cannot be made larger on an already designed and produced aircraft, right back in your faces. Fleet size - 300 aircraft.

F-16 Fighting Falcon's future in Pakistan Air Force has one of two options. Either we buy more used F-16s with substantial airframe hours left in them, are upgraded to at least Block-52 standards and have airframe life extention work done on them. This used fleet buy-up can only work, provided that Pakistan Air Force can manage to stockpile large reserves of essential components of the aircraft "_in reserve_" with MRO facilities in place. Or Pakistan Air Force goes for new F-16s (Block-V, Block-70 or whatever the heck they're called these days) but the same condition of acquiring large reserve of components to maintain 100% of the fleet for at least 1 year. Fleet size - 130/150 aircraft.

Pakistan Air Force ought to center it's focus around building it's fleet size with qualitative edge of 550 aircraft. With Pakistan Air Force's serviceability record, which is one of the best in the world today. The 550 mark, gives Pakistan Air Force a comprehensive and decisive advantage against the enemy. 

But the objectives of Pakistan Air Force do not end there. Nope!! The parallel effort should be focused on Pakistan Air Force driving toward Unmanned Air Systems, capable of swarm attacks, electronic jamming, rcs mimmicking and masking abilities. Pakistan Air Force should lead the charge with China in developing *AI-UACS* (Artificial Intelligence Unmanned Air Combat Systems) capable of achieving air-interdiction missions in SAM Saturated Sites. More than that, these AI-UACS should have the capability to merge with AEWs, expanding the field-view of the AEW systems, phenomenally. Lastly, Pakistan Air Force should work with China and Russia to develop AI-UACS which can be operated by air superiority fighter squadrons for air battle tactics. Fleet size - undefined!

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## ACE OF THE AIR

fatman17 said:


> FA50 is US sanctions prone unfortunately


yes and so are the F-16 not to mention EFT is also sanction prone.


fatman17 said:


> The Italian offer is ~€600m for 1squadron plus the upgrade and infrastructure etc.


This price would be aprox 37.5 million euro per pop. The issue is would these upgrades bring the EFT equal to F-16 block 15 in regards to ground attack roles?

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## JamD

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> If the right engine was available



Hazaron khuahishon aisi kay har khwahish pe dum niklay 

Translation because of forum rules:
Thousands of wishes such that each wish takes your life.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

The Typhoon T1 is a glorified F-16 Block-52+. The most feasible way to approach those is to work out a leasing agreement with Leonardo where the PAF pays $100 m a year flat for everything -- i.e., every plane, maintenance issue, weapon, sortie, fuel, etc -- right until we don't need the T1s anymore. By the end of the leasing deal, those T1s will be so worn out, Leonardo might just leave them with Pakistan.

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## Armchair

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The Typhoon T1 is a glorified F-16 Block-52+. The most feasible way to approach those is to work out a leasing agreement with Leonardo where the PAF pays $100 m a year flat for everything -- i.e., every plane, maintenance issue, weapon, sortie, fuel, etc -- right until we don't need the T1s anymore. By the end of the leasing deal, those T1s will be so worn out, Leonardo might just leave them with Pakistan.



Here are some alternative things we could do with 100 million. 

1. Build a local bare basic LRSAM that will add an additional dimension for enemy fighters to deal with, while simultaneously taking on our fighter pilots and EW. This can be done using the basic technology of Nasr and mating it with an active seeker. 
With 100 million a year, you cold have a gigantic number of LRSAMs.
2. Build UCAVs for strike and as BVR carrying companions for JFTs
3. Double the production rate of JFT 
4. Decrease the time for Project Azm by half
5. Raise 20 new conscript divisions to completely neutralize India's numbers advantage. 
6. Lease J-10 Cs instead.

Actually, at 100 million a year, you could attempt to do a reasonable job in 4 of the above 6 points.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Armchair said:


> Here are some alternative things we could do with 100 million.
> 
> 1. Build a local bare basic LRSAM that will add an additional dimension for enemy fighters to deal with, while simultaneously taking on our fighter pilots and EW. This can be done using the basic technology of Nasr and mating it with an active seeker.
> With 100 million a year, you cold have a gigantic number of LRSAMs.
> 2. Build UCAVs for strike and as BVR carrying companions for JFTs
> 3. Double the production rate of JFT
> 4. Decrease the time for Project Azm by half
> 5. Raise 20 new conscript divisions to completely neutralize India's numbers advantage.
> 6. Lease J-10 Cs instead.
> 
> Actually, at 100 million a year, you could attempt to do a reasonable job in 4 of the above 6 points.


If spread over 10 years, I'd...

1. Buy the Denel Dynamics Marlin BVRAAM / MR-SAM Project
2. Develop an AUAV (for deep-strike and buddying Project Azm & JF-17)
3. Develop an Iskander-like SRBM (maybe use Ukraine's Hrim-2 project as a starting point)
4. Develop a lightweight supersonic AShM for use from aircraft, land, ships & submarines
5. Develop lighter, longer-range variants of the Ra'ad ALCM
6. Get Denel Dynamics to give us an equivalent to Umbani and Sajeel PGB/LGBs
7. Buy-off Denel's Raptor 3 for an H-6.
8. Buy-off the A-Darter 
9. Get Hensoldt to develop a custom HMD/S

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## Armchair

I think someday we may find that you can't buy off technology. That's a place were a lot of Muslim states have wasted money but never, historically helped them. As soon that bought technology became outdated. And while we focused on the nihilistic view of buying weapons systems, people who understood the underlying technologies were able to do much more.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Armchair said:


> someday


its nothing but wishful thinking. time to take rest my friend.


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## denel

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> If spread over 10 years, I'd...
> 
> 1. Buy the Denel Dynamics Marlin BVRAAM / MR-SAM Project
> 2. Develop an AUAV (for deep-strike and buddying Project Azm & JF-17)
> 3. Develop an Iskander-like SRBM (maybe use Ukraine's Hrim-2 project as a starting point)
> 4. Develop a lightweight supersonic AShM for use from aircraft, land, ships & submarines
> 5. Develop lighter, longer-range variants of the Ra'ad ALCM
> 6. Get Denel Dynamics to give us an equivalent to Umbani and Sajeel PGB/LGBs
> 7. Buy-off Denel's Raptor 3 for an H-6.
> 8. Buy-off the A-Darter
> 9. Get Hensoldt to develop a custom HMD/S



I am telling you; South Africa is the premium destination for every bit of hardware that Pak needs; even additional specs will be accommodated. We need Pak to join in joint ventures and a lot of syngeries will come through. Even though RSA4 SLV is off shelf; it can be resurrected for LEOs launches. This is just on the air front. On land, IFV/mine proof vehicles remains our core strengths that is copied/transformed right across the globe under various brands, artillery etc.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

denel said:


> I am telling you; South Africa is the premium destination for every bit of hardware that Pak needs; even additional specs will be accommodated. We need Pak to join in joint ventures and a lot of syngeries will come through. Even though RSA4 SLV is off shelf; it can be resurrected for LEOs launches. This is just on the air front. On land, IFV/mine proof vehicles remains our core strengths that is copied/transformed right across the globe under various brands, artillery etc.


Though off-the-shelf project buys are a start, the ideal is collaboration, right down to core inputs such as miniature air-breathing engines (esp. ramjet, scramjet, etc with CSIR, SomChem), satellite tech, IFVs, LAVs, etc. If the geo-strategic stance is a sign, there's a lull across our entire leadership towards taking sharp step forwards. Be it with South Africa or Ukraine for that matter, lots of missed opportunities. The lack of money is a constraint, but then again, we're not talking about EU/USA here, much closer currency parity and comparable economic realities.

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## TsAr

denel said:


> I am telling you; South Africa is the premium destination for every bit of hardware that Pak needs; even additional specs will be accommodated. We need Pak to join in joint ventures and a lot of syngeries will come through. Even though RSA4 SLV is off shelf; it can be resurrected for LEOs launches. This is just on the air front. On land, IFV/mine proof vehicles remains our core strengths that is copied/transformed right across the globe under various brands, artillery etc.


@denel a question was you, Pakistan and South African military chiefs have visited the countries and defense delegations have held several meeting. What is the stumbling block that is stopping both countries from joint ventures?

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## denel

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Though off-the-shelf project buys are a start, the ideal is collaboration, right down to core inputs such as miniature air-breathing engines (esp. ramjet, scramjet, etc with CSIR, SomChem), satellite tech, IFVs, LAVs, etc. If the geo-strategic stance is a sign, there's a lull across our entire leadership towards taking sharp step forwards. Be it with South Africa or Ukraine for that matter, lots of missed opportunities. The lack of money is a constraint, but then again, we're not talking about EU/USA here, much closer currency parity and comparable economic realities.


Absolutely, we are desperately looking for markets right now as long as there is money, it can be done. With the exception of land weapons where we have a good market share, there is already breakthru on AAMs front; things had slowed under prior Brazilian govt; with the president things are beginning to move to get AAMs jvs to final stages.



TsAr said:


> @denel a question was you, Pakistan and South African military chiefs have visited the countries and defense delegations have held several meeting. What is the stumbling block that is stopping both countries from joint ventures?


There was no stumbling block on our side; the issue was on Pak side. Remember - we have a difference - our military chiefs have ZERO power on deals. Pak team signs documents and promises but never shows up; then what has been passed along is they have vested interests with Chinese/US/European sellers who give massive kickbacks and hence nothing transpires. Regretfully until that mentality changes, there will be nothing of major significant going over to Pak @MastanKhan

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## Inception-06

denel said:


> Absolutely, we are desperately looking for markets right now as long as there is money, it can be done. With the exception of land weapons where we have a good market share, there is already breakthru on AAMs front; things had slowed under prior Brazilian govt; with the president things are beginning to move to get AAMs jvs to final stages.
> 
> 
> There was no stumbling block on our side; the issue was on Pak side. Remember - we have a difference - our military chiefs have ZERO power on deals. Pak team signs documents and promises but never shows up; then what has been passed along is they have vested interests with Chinese/US/European sellers who give massive kickbacks and hence nothing transpires. Regretfully until that mentality changes, there will be nothing of major significant going over to Pak @MastanKhan



as other members wrote already what's stopping Pakistan from joint ventures and deeper military cooperation with South Africa?

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## denel

Inception-06 said:


> as other members wrote already what's stopping Pakistan from joint ventures and deeper military cooperation with South Africa?


Corruption and self interest on Pak side. This is exactly what scuttled the deal with Turkey when we were trying to sell Rooivalk helos back in 90's. Their high command was under pressure of EU/US not to deal under pretext of carrots to join EU etc. Think of it this way - you need gunships - we have the know how, design and complete production can be done - but not once we were approached.



denel said:


> Corruption and self interest on Pak side. This is exactly what scuttled the deal with Turkey when we were trying to sell Rooivalk helos back in 90's. Their high command was under pressure of EU/US not to deal under pretext of carrots to join EU etc. Think of it this way - you need gunships - we have the know how, design and complete production can be done - but not once we were approached.


You need mine proof vehicles - all countries have come to us for TOT including Americans after they got eaten up in Iraq; but did Pak ever consider coming to even discuss how best to come up with a low cost solution - we always believe there is a solution for every client - NOTHING.
Sorry i am not sounding like sour grapes but just frustrated at the morons you have at the leadership in Pak.

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## TsAr

denel said:


> Absolutely, we are desperately looking for markets right now as long as there is money, it can be done. With the exception of land weapons where we have a good market share, there is already breakthru on AAMs front; things had slowed under prior Brazilian govt; with the president things are beginning to move to get AAMs jvs to final stages.
> 
> 
> There was no stumbling block on our side; the issue was on Pak side. Remember - we have a difference - our military chiefs have ZERO power on deals. Pak team signs documents and promises but never shows up; then what has been passed along is they have vested interests with Chinese/US/European sellers who give massive kickbacks and hence nothing transpires. Regretfully until that mentality changes, there will be nothing of major significant going over to Pak @MastanKhan


So kicks backs is the only reason? So should I assume that south African defense companies are against kick backs which are prevalent in the defense industry? (I am not in favor of kickbacks, just trying to get a better understanding)

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## Inception-06

denel said:


> Corruption and self interest on Pak side. This is exactly what scuttled the deal with Turkey when we were trying to sell Rooivalk helos back in 90's. Their high command was under pressure of EU/US not to deal under pretext of carrots to join EU etc. Think of it this way - you need gunships - we have the know how, design and complete production can be done - but not once we were approached.
> 
> 
> You need mine proof vehicles - all countries have come to us for TOT including Americans after they got eaten up in Iraq; but did Pak ever consider coming to even discuss how best to come up with a low cost solution - we always believe there is a solution for every client - NOTHING.
> Sorry i am not sounding like sour grapes but just frustrated at the morons you have at the leadership in Pak.



If that's true, then its shame and it hurts!


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## denel

TsAr said:


> So kicks backs is the only reason? So should I assume that south African defense companies are against kick backs which are prevalent in the defense industry? (I am not in favor of kickbacks, just trying to get a better understanding)


They will avoid it as much as possible; it is some people have bigger bags they can give. For example - when we were trying to negotiate with India on howitzers - they demanded 25% kickbacks; then govt changed, the next set of officials wanted another 25% because their palms had not been greased; we refused and got black listed for kickbacks.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

denel said:


> Corruption and self interest on Pak side. This is exactly what scuttled the deal with Turkey when we were trying to sell Rooivalk helos back in 90's. Their high command was under pressure of EU/US not to deal under pretext of carrots to join EU etc. Think of it this way - you need gunships - we have the know how, design and complete production can be done - but not once we were approached.
> 
> 
> You need mine proof vehicles - all countries have come to us for TOT including Americans after they got eaten up in Iraq; but did Pak ever consider coming to even discuss how best to come up with a low cost solution - we always believe there is a solution for every client - NOTHING.
> Sorry i am not sounding like sour grapes but just frustrated at the morons you have at the leadership in Pak.


Indeed. It might not be fancy, but the Rooivalk/Puma combination was definitely worth exploring. Two rugged and proven platforms, albeit with one major choking point -- Safran Group. However, that's where re-adapting comes into play, e.g., working with Ukraine's Motor Sich for an alternative turboshaft, or perhaps promising Airbus and Safran new Puma orders in tandem with the Rooivalk.

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## denel

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Indeed. It might not be fancy, but the Rooivalk/Puma combination was definitely worth exploring. Two rugged and proven platforms, albeit with one major choking point -- Safran Group. However, that's where re-adapting comes into play, e.g., working with Ukraine's Motor Sich for an alternative turboshaft, or perhaps promising Airbus and Safran new Puma orders in tandem with the Rooivalk.


Absolutely, that is the beauty, those platforms have complete flexibility to interchange.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

TsAr said:


> So kicks backs is the only reason? So should I assume that south African defense companies are against kick backs which are prevalent in the defense industry? (I am not in favor of kickbacks, just trying to get a better understanding)


To see South Africa (and Ukraine's) value, you need to be of the mindset of wanting to develop weapon systems first, even if you can get them from China or other sources. That's been Turkey's mindset as of late; they could've gotten AAMs, PGBs, etc from wherever, but they opted to make those in-house. Pakistan's mind-set is generally to import what's available and only take homegrown/JV routes when we can't access good equivalents.

So, as long as Pakistan can buy AAMs and SAMs from China (or Turkey in the coming years), it sadly will never collaborate with South Africa. However, in the 1990s, when no one was offering Pakistan PGMs, Pakistan opted to acquire tech for H-2, H-4, and Ra'ad from South Africa.

Unfortunately, this mindset of procurement runs against the 'vision' of a strong domestic defence industry -- for the latter, you need to prioritize in-house ahead of imports. But this is just another one of our conflicting beliefs, it joins the list of many others across our social, education, political, etc system.

PS: we could also work with South Africa on artillery, e.g., towed 155 mm howtizers, guns for a tracked howitzer, lightweight 105 mm howitzers, guided shells, etc.

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## denel

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> To see South Africa (and Ukraine's) value, you need to be of the mindset of wanting to develop weapon systems first, even if you can get them from China or other sources. That's been Turkey's mindset as of late; they could've gotten AAMs, PGBs, etc from wherever, but they opted to make those in-house. Pakistan's mind-set is generally to import what's available and only take homegrown/JV routes when we can't access good equivalents.
> 
> So, as long as Pakistan can buy AAMs and SAMs from China (or Turkey in the coming years), it sadly will never collaborate with South Africa. However, in the 1990s, when no one was offering Pakistan PGMs, Pakistan opted to acquire tech for H-2, H-4, and Ra'ad from South Africa.
> 
> Unfortunately, this mindset of procurement runs against the 'vision' of a strong domestic defence industry -- for the latter, you need to prioritize in-house ahead of imports. But this is just another one of our conflicting beliefs, it joins the list of many others across our social, education, political, etc system.
> 
> PS: we could also work with South Africa on artillery, e.g., towed 155 mm howtizers, guns for a tracked howitzer, lightweight 105 mm howitzers, guided shells, etc.


Absolutely, until that mindset is adopted; nothing will change.

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## Khafee

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> To see South Africa (and Ukraine's) value, you need to be of the mindset of wanting to develop weapon systems first, even if you can get them from China or other sources. That's been Turkey's mindset as of late; they could've gotten AAMs, PGBs, etc from wherever, but they opted to make those in-house. Pakistan's mind-set is generally to import what's available and only take homegrown/JV routes when we can't access good equivalents.
> 
> So, as long as Pakistan can buy AAMs and SAMs from China (or Turkey in the coming years), it sadly will never collaborate with South Africa. However, in the 1990s, when no one was offering Pakistan PGMs, Pakistan opted to acquire tech for H-2, H-4, and *Ra'ad* from South Africa.
> 
> Unfortunately, this mindset of procurement runs against the 'vision' of a strong domestic defence industry -- for the latter, you need to prioritize in-house ahead of imports. But this is just another one of our conflicting beliefs, it joins the list of many others across our social, education, political, etc system.
> 
> PS: we could also work with South Africa on artillery, e.g., towed 155 mm howtizers, guns for a tracked howitzer, lightweight 105 mm howitzers, guided shells, etc.


Sir, Ra'ad has ARAB genes, it did not come from south africa.

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## Dual Wielder

denel said:


> but did Pak ever consider coming to even discuss how best to come up with a low cost solution - we always believe there is a solution for every client - NOTHING.
> Sorry i am not sounding like sour grapes but just frustrated at the morons you have at the leadership in Pak.



Unfortunately our leaders only come to power to enrich themselves, the country comes second e.g. the infamous 'Mr. 10%' but I think that's changing now, we're slowly moving in right direction due to the recent accountability drive.

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## denel

Dual Wielder said:


> Unfortunately our leaders only come to power to enrich themselves, the country comes second e.g. the infamous 'Mr. 10%' but I think that's changing now, we're slowly moving in right direction due to the recent accountability drive.


we saw same entire decade under the curry muncher indian transplants Guptas and their hijack of Zuma and his croonies. Finally we are coming out of the shithole these indians dug this country and institutions under. If i had my way, we would put these Guptas where no light would even shine of their wretched swine family.

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## MastanKhan

Khafee said:


> Sir, Ra'ad has ARAB genes, it did not come from south africa.



Hi,

Surprise surprises---I was relaxing and you pulled another one---.

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## fatman17

General Xu Qiliang, Vice Chairman of Chinese Central Military Commission visited the Pakistan AF Commander, Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan at AHQ Islamabad today. Bet that was an interesting meeting. https://t.co/kM4n09tw5k

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## Maxpane

fatman17 said:


> General Xu Qiliang, Vice Chairman of Chinese Central Military Commission visited the Pakistan AF Commander, Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan at AHQ Islamabad today. Bet that was an interesting meeting. https://t.co/kM4n09tw5k
> View attachment 576554


which missile model is on the table?


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## fatman17

Maxpane said:


> which missile model is on the table?


The C or AK variety Anti Ship

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## PakShaheen79

Looks like C-602.

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## The Eagle



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## MIRauf

It's 802-A if not mistaken.

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## messiach

Two different project lines. NxGF is planned to be survivable assett.


JamD said:


> Azm could might as well turn out to be a JF-17NG as you called it. Or it could be the actual NGF. Not sure. We will have to be patient.

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## Quwa

messiach said:


> Two different project lines. NxGF is planned to be survivable assett.


So, the future PAF is basically JF-17 NG (e.g., 4, 5, 6 etc) and a larger FGFA? If so, then it's well crafted -- implicit understanding that FGFAs may be tough to field in great numbers, need a proven and lower cost asset in concert.

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## JamD

Quwa said:


> So, the future PAF is basically JF-17 NG (e.g., 4, 5, 6 etc) and a larger FGFA? If so, then it's well crafted -- implicit understanding that FGFAs may be tough to field in great numbers, need a proven and lower cost asset in concert.


Perhaps we should use this opportunity to clear up the nomenclature.
1. FGFA = Project Azm
2. JF-17NG (Block 4+)
Is this about right? Not sure what NGF refers too. Perhaps FGFA = NGF = Azm? I'm still very confused.

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## Syed1.

JamD said:


> Perhaps we should use this opportunity to clear up the nomenclature.
> 1. FGFA = Project Azm
> 2. JF-17NG (Block 4+)
> Is this about right? Not sure what NGF refers too. Perhaps FGFA = NGF = Azm? I'm still very confused.


IIRC Project AZM is a holistic project umbrella that includes creation of an Aviation City and centers of excellence at Kamra, as well as advanced UAVs and a fifth generation fighter.

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## JamD

Syed1. said:


> IIRC Project AZM is a holistic project umbrella that includes creation of an Aviation City and centers of excellence at Kamra, as well as advanced UAVs and a fifth generation fighter.


I think originally what you said is indeed what was announced. However, I suspect they have changed the website (recently). It now reads:




https://www.pac.org.pk/avrid

Furthermore, all mention of UAV has been removed. @Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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## Quwa

JamD said:


> Perhaps we should use this opportunity to clear up the nomenclature.
> 1. FGFA = Project Azm
> 2. JF-17NG (Block 4+)
> Is this about right? Not sure what NGF refers too. Perhaps FGFA = NGF = Azm? I'm still very confused.





JamD said:


> I think originally what you said is indeed what was announced. However, I suspect they have changed the website (recently). It now reads:
> View attachment 576676
> 
> https://www.pac.org.pk/avrid
> 
> Furthermore, all mention of UAV has been removed. @Bilal Khan (Quwa)


I agree. Project Azm should refer to the FGFA, while the JF-17NG would basically be the next JF-17 variant.

IIRC, PAC's AvRID page never included mention of the MALE UAV (see this post from 2018). I think they might have (nominally speaking) simplified Project Azm into just the FGFA, and everything else, be it drones, missiles, etc are all separate programs.

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## messiach

So, when a project is blueprinted, its characteristics are frozen. I am not aware of anything like 4,5,6,16,100. Building a brand new design is a major major undertaking eg NxGFA worth 100s of millions of $. Read about sustained highlift devices @JamD 


Quwa said:


> So, the future PAF is basically JF-17 NG (e.g., 4, 5, 6 etc) and a larger FGFA? If so, then it's well crafted -- implicit understanding that FGFAs may be tough to field in great numbers, need a proven and lower cost asset in concert.

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## fatman17

I've been able to confirm PAF interest in AESA/PL-15 integration for JF-17 Block-III. It will enable JF-17s to engage targets at extended BVR ranges, where the aircraft itself will not be visible on enemy's radar due to low RCS. We're talking 150+ km.

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## fatman17

Due to the integration of AESA radar, the JF-17s will not only become resistant to enemy's jamming but will have on station jamming, EW capabilities of their own. This will be further enhanced by the integration of a modular plug & play EW pod, mounted on the chin hard point.

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## fatman17

These are tweets of Shahid Reza


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## ARMalik

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/308608358_THE_AERODYNAMIC_ANALYSIS_OF_HIGH_LIFT_DEVICES

*THE AERODYNAMIC ANALYSIS OF HIGH LIFT DEVICES*


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## Kabotar

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1168525104554360832

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## khanasifm

fatman17 said:


> Due to the integration of AESA radar, the JF-17s will not only become resistant to enemy's jamming but will have on station jamming, EW capabilities of their own. This will be further enhanced by the integration of a modular plug & play EW pod, mounted on the chin hard point.



Learned internal fuel capacity has also gone up plus lighter due to advance materials and all fly by wire system

It would be nice if fuel fraction goes to .30 plus 

Say ~2600 kg and weapons pylons to 9-11

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## loanranger

khanasifm said:


> weapons pylons to 9-11


Where are we going get the surface area to spare for 9 to 11 pylons. Wing span and other specs are the same????


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## khanasifm

loanranger said:


> Where are we going get the surface area to spare for 9 to 11 pylons. Wing span and other specs are the same????



I do not know but 2 under wing plus two under intake total 4 new one, like to but I am not aware of total number at this time


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## khanasifm

Something like it plus two under intake , guessing but possible

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## ziaulislam

khanasifm said:


> View attachment 577208
> 
> 
> Something like it plus two under intake , guessing but possible


main problem of current block isnt the no. of hard points but its limited internal fuel.. a single hardpoint for pod is more than enough its the fuel that limits it..it has to carry 2 fuel tanks all the time to really be practical ..if it gets naother 800-1000 liters it can simply work out with 1 fuel tank and spare another 2 hardpoints

block 3 would need to get at least another 800 kg of fuel to really become a good fighter...or come up with something innovative like CFTs

gripen NG carries 3400kg of fuel up from 2400 in the C version..they realized that wihtout this addiotnal fuel its not going to be able to compete



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The Typhoon T1 is a glorified F-16 Block-52+. The most feasible way to approach those is to work out a leasing agreement with Leonardo where the PAF pays $100 m a year flat for everything -- i.e., every plane, maintenance issue, weapon, sortie, fuel, etc -- right until we don't need the T1s anymore. By the end of the leasing deal, those T1s will be so worn out, Leonardo might just leave them with Pakistan.


i doubt they will lease them so cheap
you want them to have upgraded capabilities not just basic T1s, and that is where the problem lies..this will push the plan well into 60+M range

the price will have to be dropped to around 20 m from 40 ish now to make this deal feasible for PAF, provided theere is interest in PAF to begin with it

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## fatman17

Swift Retort!

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

ziaulislam said:


> main problem of current block isnt the no. of hard points but its limited internal fuel.. a single hardpoint for pod is more than enough its the fuel that limits it..it has to carry 2 fuel tanks all the time to really be practical ..if it gets naother 800-1000 liters it can simply work out with 1 fuel tank and spare another 2 hardpoints
> 
> block 3 would need to get at least another 800 kg of fuel to really become a good fighter...or come up with something innovative like CFTs
> 
> gripen NG carries 3400kg of fuel up from 2400 in the C version..they realized that wihtout this addiotnal fuel its not going to be able to compete
> 
> 
> i doubt they will lease them so cheap
> you want them to have upgraded capabilities not just basic T1s, and that is where the problem lies..this will push the plan well into 60+M range
> 
> the price will have to be dropped to around 20 m from 40 ish now to make this deal feasible for PAF, provided theere is interest in PAF to begin with it


IMO ... we need to come to terms, the only near-term new fighter will be the JF-17 Block-3. At this point, I can't see how they'll spare even available money for anything but Project Azm. 

Sure, they might end-up being less risky or ambitious with Azm, but as it stands, the money should go into taking us out of heavy reliance on outside OEMs, not keep us there.

However, spending a $1bn on air-to-air, air-to-surface, etc weapons development (including dual-motor pulse rockets, electronics, seekers, etc) for both JF-17 and Project Azm is a worthwhile idea. I'd go that route.

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## Silicon0000

JamD said:


> Perhaps we should use this opportunity to clear up the nomenclature.
> 1. FGFA = Project Azm
> 2. JF-17NG (Block 4+)
> Is this about right? Not sure what NGF refers too. Perhaps FGFA = NGF = Azm? I'm still very confused.



As it's already September and no pic leak of block3 (which is assumed to be with no significant difference in appearance but internals) and with this secrecy ....... I have a feeling either:

1- The project is far behind timelines.
2- Block-3 is actually JF-17 NG.



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IMO ... we need to come to terms, the only near-term new fighter will be the JF-17 Block-3. At this point, I can't see how they'll spare even available money for anything but Project Azm.
> 
> Sure, they might end-up being less risky or ambitious with Azm, but as it stands, the money should go into taking us out of heavy reliance on outside OEMs, not keep us there.
> 
> However, spending a $1bn on air-to-air, air-to-surface, etc weapons development (including dual-motor pulse rockets, electronics, seekers, etc) for both JF-17 and Project Azm is a worthwhile idea. I'd go that route.



Should be the way to look forward.

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## messiach

Thats the FC-1E under RandD since 2010. I have talked abt it elsewhere.



fatman17 said:


> Due to the integration of AESA radar, the JF-17s will not only become resistant to enemy's jamming but will have on station jamming, EW capabilities of their own. This will be further enhanced by the integration of a modular plug & play EW pod, mounted on the chin hard point.

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## JamD

messiach said:


> Thats the FC-1E under RandD since 2010. I have talked abt it elsewhere.


@Signalian

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## Dazzler

__ https://www.facebook.com/

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## Fieldmarshal

Seems like terbulance


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## Apocalypse

Air War of '65 - 54 years ago today


The Tail Choppers

The concentration of air, sea and land power lay in the western wing of the country, and East Pakistan had only a single squadron of 12 F-86F aircraft at Dhaka. This was all that could be spared, in the hope that it would be sufficient for the comparatively limited air defence requirements of East Pakistan. Offensive operations from that wing had not been seriously contemplated, although the station commander, Group Captain Ghulam Haider, had been cautioned to have all planning and preparations completed.

The primary target was the big IAF base at Kalaikunda, with Rampurhat radar as the secondary. At Kalaikunda one could expect a good concentration of fighters and bombers set aside for tasks in the east. In fact it actually had over 80 aircraft: 1 Canberra squadron, 1 Hunter squadron, 1 Mystere squadron, 1 Vampire or Ouragon squadron and a number of miscellaneous aircraft. Of the other targets, Baghdogra had 2 Vampire/Ouragon squadrons, Tezpur and Chabwa I Hunter squadron each.

On the 6th, the Dhaka-based pilots were at standby from 0430 hours when Theatre ordered 6 aircraft to be ready for immediate strikes. There was a flash warning at 0830 announcing the start of the war. A CAP was accordingly flown overhead Dhaka all day. When Theatre decided upon the overall airfield strike plan later that morning, it was appreciated that a dusk strike in the east could not be synchronised with those in the west because of a one hour difference in local times. The mission order of 14 Squadron, therefore, prescribed a TOT at dawn on the 7th. IAF Canberras from Kalaikunda penetrated into East Pakistan air space as far as Dhaka during the night of 6/7 September, and dropped bombs at random without much effect in the way of damage or casualties. On the morning of 7 September the Indians launched a pre-dawn offensive consisting of widespread attacks against several targets in East Pakistan - the airfields at Chittagong, Jessore, Lalmunirhat, Shibganj, Thakurgaon and Kurmitola, as well as the Pak Army headquarters at Rangpur.

Hampered by the low cloud and the natural cover which the country afforded, the Indian aircraft failed to locate Dhaka airfield, from where the Sabres were, operating. Instead, they attacked Kurmitola, an abandoned airfield nearby, where the PAF's SOC was located. Here, a barrack was hit by rockets, and there were two casualties, one Sergeant A R Choudhry, and a child.

Kurmitola was still under attack when the strike element of the squadron started up, in anticipation of clearance from Theatre for counter offensive action. This clearance was some time in coming, and it was not until 0635 hours that the mission was on its way to Kalaikuncla. It consisted of 5 aircraft with Squadron Leader Shabbir H Syed, the squadron commander, in the lead. The other members were Flight Lieutenant Baseer Khan, Flight Lieutenant Tariq Habib Khan, Flying Officer Afzal Khan, and Flight Lieutenant Abdul Haleem.

Under difficult visibility conditions, the strike mission flew on, just managing to stick together, often without any visual contact. However, it was not long before the leader reported the target in sight; there were, four confident calls of 'contact' from his team, and as they pulled up for the attack, Shabbir's formation was rewarded by the sight of Canberras and Hunters lying mostly unguarded on the airfield. The surprise, it seems, was complete; the Indians had probably never imagined that such a small force could react with such speed and audacity against odds so heavily weighted against it, and that, too, at the very limits of its reach into Indian territory.

The raiders put in three attacks, and when they exited, the airfield lay ablaze behind them. Ten aircraft were estimated to have been destroyed, while several aircraft and a number of installations were damaged. The mission landed back at Dhaka at 0744 hours.

Not content, however, with having delivered this significant blow to draw first blood, the-squadron pursued the initiative further, and at 1030 hours a second strike mission was ready to leave for Kalaikuncla, led this time by Flight Lieutenant Haleem. Later it was thought that it might have been wiser not to send this second strike.

Take off was at about 1030 hours and the approach was made at low level as before, although in fairly poor visibility; but this time the Indians were ready. As the F-86s pulled up for their attack, No 4 called on the radio "Nine Hunters, 12 o'clock high", and heavy ack ack fire was simultaneously encountered from the airfield. From their battle formation, the F-86s split into two pairs as the leader ordered his No 3 and 4 not to follow him into the attack, but during their single pass, the first two Sabres each strafed a Canberra. Before this strike, the remaining Indian bombers had been removed from the tarmac into protected dispersals, presumably on the principle of better late than never.

All 4 F-86s then turned to engage the Indian aircraft, and Flight Lieutenant Tariq Habeeb, who was leading the second pair of Sabres, called, ','Lead, I have four Hunters behind me". He also told his No 2, Afzal Khan, to jettison his tanks and break. With four drop tanks beneath the wings, the Sabres were very sluggish, and before Afzal could release them a Hunter had closed in to about 600 ft and opened fire. The F-86 burst into flames, and rolled straight into the ground. Tariq Habeeb had in the meantime jettisoned three of his tanks, but the fourth hung up and with this handicap he was cornered by 3 Hunters for a good ten minutes. With remarkable coolness and presence of mind, he twisted and turned at low altitude to evade his pursuers, popping out his speed brakes and lowering flap to improve his low speed manoeuvreability.

Even after his flap stuck down at 20 degrees he managed to continue breaking into the Hunters, as well as firing at a couple of them, before he succeeded in shaking them off and returning safely to Dhaka, several anxious minutes after the other 2 Sabres had landed. For his courage and skill in fighting his way clear of the larger and better equipped enemy force, Tariq Habeeb was awarded a well deserved Sitara-e-Jurat. 14 Squadron earned the nickname of the 'Tail Choppers', alluding to the swath of bullets they used at Kalaikuncla to cut through the tails of IAF's neatly lined up Canberras. In West Pakistan, the PAF had cut off the head of the Indian Air Force, and in their two sorties on 7 September, the pilots of 14 Squadron did an equally good job with the tail.

This second raid is estimated to have bagged 4 to 6 aircraft, mainly Canberras, for the loss of one Sabre. Thus the day's toll on the IAF in the east was about 14-16 aircraft destroyed, and 6-8 aircraft damaged. The losses, on the other hand, were one Sabre destroyed with its pilot Flying Officer Afzal lost, and one Sabre - Flight Lieutenant Tariq Habeeb's -rendered permanently unserviceable for want of spares. Though this in itself was not much, the aircraft strength of the squadron was now reduced to 8 [this included two air accidents due to bad weather conditions since the war started].

By the end of 7th September 1965, the PAF achieved an outstanding measure of success in both its immediate objectives. The significance of this soon became apparent: after the 7th of September, except for occasional air skirmishes over the international border, the IAF never seriously challenged the PAF for control of the air. Having achieved a healthy measure of air superiority, it now became necessary for the PAF to review its strategy for the foreseeable future. Since there was no political or army guidance available as to the probable duration of the war, nor was there any prospect of replenishment of lost aircraft, it was now of paramount importance to adopt a 'conservation' policy. It was, therefore, decided to halt daylight counter air operations altogether as they were likely to produce the highest attrition rate; henceforth attacks against IAF installations would be done exclusively by B-57s at night. The Sabres would be employed primarily on air defence and army support operations

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## ghazi52

*PAF ever ready to protect blue skies of country: Air Chief*

September 07, 2019





Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan says Pakistan Air Force is ever ready to protect the blue skies of the country.

Addressing Martyrs' Day ceremony at Air Headquarters in Islamabad on Saturday, he said PAF's glaring victory against the enemy during Operation Swift Retort showed to the world the capability of our Shaheens. 

The Air Chief said sacrifices of our forefathers demand unity and patriotism amongst us. 

Talking about the Kashmir issue, he said we stand shoulder to shoulder with our Kashmiri brothers in their struggle for the right of self-determination.

Later, Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan laid floral wreath and offered Fateha at the Martyrs' Monument.

Principal Staff Officers and a large number of Airmen attended the ceremony.

Meanwhile, in connection with PAF Day, a wreath laying ceremony was also held at the grave of country's youngest Nishan-e-Haider Pilot Officer Rashid Minhas Shaheed in Karachi.

A PAF Contingent led by Air Vice Marshal Ghulam Abbas Ghumman, Air Officer Commanding, Southern Air Command, offered 'Fateha' and laid floral wreath at the grave of Rashid Minhas Shaheed on behalf of the Air Chief.

The contingent paid homage to the young pilot who sacrificed his life in the defence of motherland, showing exceptional courage and determination.

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## fatman17

The so far best images from the joint PAF-PLAAF exercise "Shaheen VIII 2019"

(Images via Via @空军发布 and @央视军事报道 from Weixin) https://t.co/g78FtwWjK6

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## khanasifm

Always see paf pilot flying back seat of j-11,16 or su but nothing on j-10 ??


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## ziaulislam

khanasifm said:


> Learned internal fuel capacity has also gone up plus lighter due to advance materials and all fly by wire system
> 
> It would be nice if fuel fraction goes to .30 plus
> 
> Say ~2600 kg and weapons pylons to 9-11


who told you fuel went up?
JF17 currently just needs another 25-33% internal fuel and better engine like RD93MA to overcome its issues

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## ghazi52



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## denel

ghazi52 said:


>


Very nice to see always the Cheetah refueling probe!!

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## polanski

Pakistan will buy second hand Mirage 5 from Egypt. 
https://militarywatchmagazine.com/a...of-modernised-mirage-5-attack-jets-from-egypt


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## khanasifm

Will, shall ... when it lands or come in crates then it will be final

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## loanranger



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## Fieldmarshal

We are talking about the group captains uniform here or somthing the man wore on a fency dress party

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## Ghost 125

loanranger said:


> View attachment 578769


lol its just a lapel pin, no secrets here anyone can buy it. the aircraft in the background is mirrage and the pin (although rafale) looks like mirrage (delta wing) so he is brandishing it with his name


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## mingle

Ghost 125 said:


> lol its just a lapel pin, no secrets here anyone can buy it. the aircraft in the background is mirrage and the pin (although rafale) looks like mirrage (delta wing) so he is brandishing it with his name


Along his name tag its Rafale 200% look at canards in front of delta wings

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## Ghost 125

mingle said:


> Along his name tag its Rafale 200% look at canards in front of delta wings


i know its rafale, but it means nothing, its just a lapel pin available in market and people affilated with mirrage aircraft in PAF wear it normally because of its close look to mirrage (delta wing), i once saw a squadron leader wearing a rafale lapel pin on suit. it means NOTHING

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## Windjammer

A Rare Image of CCS 'Dashing' Unit's Aircraft.

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## PakEye

Ghost 125 said:


> i know its rafale, but it means nothing, its just a lapel pin available in market and people affilated with mirrage aircraft in PAF wear it normally because of its close look to mirrage (delta wing), i once saw a squadron leader wearing a rafale lapel pin on suit. it means NOTHING


Where is available this lapel pin of Rafale, I want to by ...


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## mingle

Windjammer said:


> A Rare Image of CCS 'Dashing' Unit's Aircraft.
> 
> View attachment 579363


Time to retire them all they are obsolete now in current theatre


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## Shah_Deu

*AssalamoAlikum guys, Just went through an Indian article on The Print, found it interesteing (apart from the usual Indian sabre-rattling). Hence shared *

*https://theprint.in/defence/how-pak...-the-mission-the-fighters-the-tactics/291522/*


*How Pakistan planned to hit India back for Balakot — the mission, the fighters, the tactics*

*Pakistan was incapable of affording a full-blown war with India. But the response  still had to convey an ‘impression’ to India and the world that Islamabad was willing to escalate the crisis.*
SAMEER JOSHI Updated: 15 September, 2019 10:11 am IST




IAF Mirage 2000 jets played a key role in air operations against Pakistan on the 26 and 27 February 2019 | Photo:  Sameer Joshi

The Indian Air Force fought one of the most significant post-Independence aerial clashes with its arch rival, the Pakistan Air Force on 27 February 2019. It’s been long since the world saw two nuclear-armed, fourth generation combat aircraft-equipped near-peer adversaries engaging each other in a highly dynamic full spectrum operational environment. This event saw the use of class leading beyond visual range (BVR) missiles in an air-to-air engagement by Pakistan; along with application of modern air combat tactics and doctrinal philosophies on diverse frontage by both sides.

This is a detailed OSINT analysis of the events that took place between 0930 to 1030H on India’s western border, on a day which would go down in the annals of aerial combat history for the grit and determination shown by a small group of Indian fighter pilots in blunting a well-executed large force PAF package attacking ground targets in south Kashmir; as well as the turning the tables on the dogged PAF F-16 ambush, which was hell bent on shooting IAF Sukhoi Su-30MKIs at all costs. What was very obvious by the end of the Pakistan’s Operation Swift Retort was that the PAF had bitten far more than it could chew — in an ignominious honour, losing a 4th generation F-16 to a 3rd generation MiG-21 in a fierce counter-attack by the Indian Air Force.

In this first part of a two part write-up on the subject, I will examine the PAF’s combat strength, doctrine, limitations, military aim and tactical plan for Op Swift retort, as well as identify the various participating strike, air defence and support formations which executed the various missions on 27 Feb 2019.

The second part will analyse the execution, conduct, achievements and lessons learnt from this aerial skirmish, especially highlighting the core role played by the IAF in blunting this attack. The second part will be released in the coming days on ThePrint.

*Prelude — Crossing the Rubicon*
Early morning at 0330H on 26 February 2019, Mirage 2000 aircraft of the Indian Air Force made shallow incursions into the Azad Kashmir and launched a pre-emtive strike on the Jaish-e-Mohammad (JeM) terror camp at Jabba Top, Balakot in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa  —  Pakistan  — hitting the targets as planned. These strikes were a direct response to the Pakistan-supported terror group JeM’s suicide attack on the convoy of Indian CRPF jawans at Pulwama near Srinagar on 14 February.

The IAF strikes completely surprised the Pakistani military establishment; in that India used airpower as a strategic signalling tool  —  in a less than war scenario  —  crossing the Line of Control (LoC) on an offensive attack mission inside Pakistan for the first time since the 1971 Indo-Pak war.

High resolution satellite imagery available in public domain confirms India’s claim  — the primary target, the Mujahid hostel, displays clean entry marks of 3 Spice 2000 penetrator bombs in the roof. Pre-strike and post-strike 30 cm high resolution imagery can be sourced to validate the same  —  including the hasty repair work carried out by the Pakistani Army in the days after the strike.

Much like the famed crossing of the Rubicon river by Julius Caesar back in 49 BC that precipitated the Roman civil war ,  the IAF’s attack was a crisp and clear escalatory message to Pakistan that post these air strikes by India, the mutual relationship had reached a point of no return  —  where Pakistan would be directly accountable for any attack by non-state actors and proxies it supports.

Having achieved the limited military aim to demonstrate its attack capability, the IAF now waited to counter Pakistan’s expected response  —  while being prepared for an all-out war.

*Scripting Pakistan’s response*
The atmosphere in Pakistan all through the day on 26 February was very tense following the IAF’s strikes, with the military establishment in a huddle over how to respond to India’s action. Pakistan military’s pride was severely dented by the Indian strike  —  especially the violation of the LoC by the IAF  —  with its domestic audience approval ratings taking a nose dive.

The military completely sealed off the targeted camp in Balakot, discouraging any independent verification of on-site damage. Casualties were hastily transferred to the nearby Army camp at Shinkiari. As per available reports the JeM has lost at least 150 of its cadre in this strike. A deception plan by the Pakistani Army’s ISPR was kicked off to cover up  —  indicating that the IAF bombs had missed the target.

Sometime in the afternoon, Pakistan Prime Minister Imran Khan called for an emergency meeting of the National Command Authority (NCA), Pakistan’s highest decision-making body, where the ongoing situation was deliberated at length and all options for an appropriate response discussed. The ability of the Pakistani nation to get all diverse and discontenting voices together in the hour of a national crisis — especially against a perceived Indian aggression, ensured that all participants agreed in unison that  escalation by India needed to be matched by an equivalent military effort.

With Pakistan’s territorial integrity violated ,  the Pakistan Air Force, in a quid pro response, was chosen to hit back at India.

While Pakistan politically may be prepared for war with India, economically and geopolitically it is in a state of deep mess. It’s foreign reserves are at an all-time low, with endless debt related issues plaguing the economy at large. The central bank forecasts growth at 3.5 to 4 per cent in the 12 months to end-June, well short of a government target of 6.2 per cent. The IMF paints an even gloomier picture, predicting Pakistan’s growth of 2.9 per cent in 2019 and 2.8 per cent the following year. Islamabad obtained temporary relief from close allies such as China and Saudi Arabia with short-term loans worth more than $10 billion to buffer foreign currency reserves and ease pressures on the country’s current account. But analysts called an IMF bailout inevitable, with Pakistan also facing an increasing fiscal crunch ahead of the annual budget spending review for the next financial year starting July2019. Any sustained conflict with India would be a literal blow towards getting anything from the IMF and the world community.

On the other hand, pressure from the Financial Action Task Force (FATF) on Pakistan’s role as a partner in funding terror across the world is also building up, with Pakistan standing to lose billions of dollars in further aid. With its widespread support to terrorists exposed on umpteen occasions in the past decades, old allies like the United States, United Kingdom and France are no longer on its side  —  Pakistan is widely being branded as a nation spawning and supporting terrorism. Pakistan has so far managed to avoid isolation only through the deft international power play by its ‘all weather’ friend and ‘iron brother’ China.

The Chinese hypocrisy and double standards are exposed in its support to Pakistan on the Masood Azhar issue, which is dictated by strategic and economic investments it has made in Pakistan over the years  —  especially in the China Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC). With $62 billion invested till date, CPEC has spread its tentacles from Gilgit to Gwader to benefit largely Chinese companies and contractors. So while China is game in using Pakistan as a tool to checkmate India in its backyard with consistent military aid and support on all quarters  —  its current economic investments in Pakistan take a serious hit in case of an all-out Indo-Pakistan war. Similarly, traditional allies like Saudi Arabia and the UAE are also averse to any war with India and advised restraint to Pakistan due to their own economic and geopolitical aspirations in South East Asia.

*The PAF’s dilemma*
As Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan, the Chief of the Pakistan Air Force , would have sat down to plan an appropriate response, he would have found himself in uncharted territory. The PAF’s self-proclaimed USP  —  its dynamic operational flexibility and aggressive doctrinal methodology  —  was unsparingly weighed down by the problems plaguing the Pakistani nation, especially its economic mess  —  which would be counterproductive to the PAF’s ability to deliver the so called emphatic blow, as well as sustain round-the-clock operations against India for a considerable duration — bleeding precious aircraft and fuel reserves required to fight a long lasting engagement.

With the surge in IAF’s flying quantum in February, the PAF had been forced to break discipline on the use of its 20-day general service aviation fuel reserve and would have been eating into its 25-day strategic war reserve maintained by Pakistan State Oil (PSO) sooner than later. Similarly as was noticed back in 1999 during the Kargil conflict, the F-16 and the older Mirage III/V aircraft fleets cannot sustain a lengthy state of operational readiness  —  consuming critical spares, weapon and flying hours meant for actual hostilities. With the US warming up to India in all spheres in the recent past, OEM support and supplies for the equipment and armament purchased through various US Congress sanctions in the last decade  —  ironically to be used in the war against terror  —  would be under scrutiny and literally come to a halt, further adding to the PAF’s woes. While the PAF has efficiently mitigated the spare and airframe calendar life issues with purchase of additional F-16s from Jordan (ADF version) and a mid-life upgrade (MLU) of its existing F-16 fleet through Turkey — any PAF military response would need to factor these crucial aspects needed to fight an extended all-out war with India.

_*Also read:* 1965 Sargodha attack: How IAF hit Pakistan’s most protected base & destroyed 10 aircraft_


*PAF’s military aim post-Balakot*
Pakistan’s geopolitical and economic considerations, when mated with data available from the PAF’s large force engagement (LFE) on 27 February 2019 ,  provides a good assessment of the PAF’s military aim towards the response towards the Balakot attack, which are as follows —
1 . Demonstrate ‘perceptible tactical brilliance’ of the PAF in a bold operation — restoring the measure of honour lost due to the Indian strikes a day prior in public perception
2 . Seize the military initiative back from the IAF — not letting India exploit the new normal
3 . Highlight — that the forces are in balance and the liberty of attacking at will without repercussions for India is not an option
4 . Aim for a quick outcome within an established time frame — avoiding escalation beyond the perceived combat threshold of an all-out war
5.  Preserve — its force levels at all costs
This counterstroke, given that Pakistan was incapable of affording a full blown war with India — still had to be significant to convey an ‘impression’ to India and the world community — that Pakistan was willing to escalate the crisis and extended diplomacy was the only way ahead to de-escalate the crisis. Towards this a parallel peace posture would be propagated through the Pak Foreign Office.

*Assessing PAF’s military preparedness*
The Pakistan Air Force has a chequered history in the various wars with India. Widely showcased by Pak propaganda over the years as a pantheon of past glory for Pakistan — the PAF is a professional force which has always attracted the best human capital in Pakistan to man its diverse cockpits. In fact, the PAF has one of the highest rejection rates amongst air forces in the world, while clinically aiming at a high ratio of 2.5 pilots per aircraft cockpit— meaning it can sustain a greater sortie rate over a protracted conflict — with lesser number of aircraft.

In-spite of living in the shadow of a much larger Pakistan Army, the PAF has remarkably done well to update and increase its airpower assets over the last couple of decades; attempting to maintain parity with the IAF at the — technological, operational training and air war doctrine employment levels.

Post 9/11, widespread American aid and concessions as a close ally in the war on terror and the perceived western need to arm Pakistan with modern tactical weapons to match the Indian superiority threshold, ostensibly to avoid a nuclear meltdown in the region — has progressively helped the PAF in upgrading its F-16 Falcon fleet and erode Indian Air Force’s numerical and technical superiority in air superiority fighters (ASF) equipped with beyond visual range (BVR) air-to-air missiles. Currently PAF has 18 top of line F-16 C/D Block 52 (inducted in 2010), 28 F-16 A/B ADF (purchased from Jordan in 2014 and 2016) and 31 F-16 A/B MLU (upgraded by TAI, Turkey between 2012–2014).





The Block 52, inducted in 2010, is the most advanced version of the F-16 in PAF’s inventory.
While the newer Block 52s are the most advanced version of F-16 with the PAF, the PAF has unwearyingly ensured that all its F-16s (less the Jordanian lot) are upgraded and equipped with the Northrop Grumman AN/APG — 68 (V)9 multi-mode radar and the AIM-120 C-5 AMRAAM missile through the various Mid Life Upgrade (MLU) initiatives. The Jordanian supplied F-16 A/B Block 15 ADF version is equipped with the APG-66 (V)2 and the AMRAAM. The AIM-120 C-5 Advanced Medium Range Air to Air Missile (AMRAAM) with its active missile seeker and a max range of around 100 km, is amongst the most advanced air to air missile operational in the world, widely used by NATO and close allies of the United States. Last known, the PAF has around 500 AMRAAMs in its stockpile.
The F-16 Falcon, armed with the AMRAAM missile, has given the PAF an edge over the IAF in beyond visual range (BVR) combat since 2010, a capability it had lacked back in the last war fought with India in Kargil 1999.





The PAF receiving its first batch of F-16A/B ADF purchased from Jordan in 2014.
Alongside, the PAF has inducted the modern JF-17 Block I/II Thunder multirole fighter in large numbers to replace its ageing fleet of F-6 and F-7 fighters. The JF-17 program is a joint Sino — Pakistan effort, which has mostly Chinese avionics and armament. The onboard NRIET KLJ-7 Pulse Doppler Multi mode attack has decent performance and is teamed with the SD-10A (PL-12) active guidance BVR AAM, which is based on the technology used in the Russian R-77 (AA-12 Adder) missile. The JF-17 is also able to carry a wide array of air to ground armament; much more than the American supplied F-16. The Block II version introduces air-air-refuelling and the Block III will feature and AESA AI radar and the potent SD-10B AAM along with other updates. There are upward of 140 JF-17s in PAF service, with an aim to have a fleet of 250 in the next few years.

These modern PAF fighters are supported by an advanced and superbly networked Air Defence environment on the ground, as well as 4 Saab-2000 ERIEYE and the 4 ZDK-03 series airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) platforms. 2 more Saab ERIEYEs will be inducted by 2020 to give the PAF a total of 10 AEW&C aircraft — which will be able to efficiently provide 24 x 7 surveillance across Pakistan.





This trio comprising of the F-16, JF-17 and the EYIEYE will form the tip of any PAF offensive air campaign.
A noteworthy achievement for the PAF has been the continuous upgradation of its older Mirage III/V fleet over the years at a low cost fraction — thus keeping a realistic strike option in place. PAF’s Mirage fleet consists of 90 Mirage-III and 90 Mirage-V aircraft for interceptor and attack roles respectively. PAF modernized its Mirage jets in an MLU program named Project ROSE (Retro Fit of Strike Element) at Aeronautical Complex in Kamra starting in end 1990s. Despite challenges and problems, the ROSE program provided a platform to PAF to experience aerial technology integration and acquire experience, gaining confidence to undertake similar project with confidence in future, which include the JF-17s. The Mirage in the PAF service have received new capabilities that improve its performance in battle dramatically. The Mirage III have been equipped with the FIAR Grifo M3 multi-mode Airborne Interception radar and along with the Mirage Vs, have been modified to carry out night missions and sophisticated systems like SAGEM Forward-looking infrared (FLIR) imaging sensors, an integrated Electronic Warfare suite, air-to-air refuelling capability and integration of stand-off precision attack munition. Pakistan Navy also operates specially upgraded Mirage aircraft for its maritime missions, which are equipped with French-made Exocet anti-Ship missiles. PAF will soon get 30+ more Mirages from Egypt, which may be utilized for the maintenance of airframes and spares for the existing fleet. Interestingly, in spite of being a generation behind the under induction JF-17, the Mirage III/V has better low level penetration range and dash capability than the JF-17 — which with the use of stand-off weapons makes it an effective weapon delivery platform under most operational scenarios.

The PAF has also inducted four IL-78MP Multi-Role Tanker Transport (MRTT) from Ukraine. While the ERIEYE and the ZDKs can look deep inside India, the tankers can provide operational support for any PAF strike deep in the Indian heartland.





The IL-78MP refuelling a Mirage V.
What is very visible in the PAF’s various newer acquisitions, operational and maintenance philosophies and upgrade programs – is its emphasis on widespread flexibility and reliability towards achieving a high sortie rate during crisis. The PAF has also focussed persistently on the right fit of platforms, a bang for the buck necessary to execute all facets of full spectrum, networked missions across its geographical bounds of operational influence.

*PAF’s doctrinal evolution — stand-off munition/tactical land attack missiles*
The PAF’s war fighting doctrine has primarily relied upon surprise and pre-emptive strikes as a definitive tool to neutralise IAF’s offensive power and gain numerical parity during the early phase of the conflict — This strategy has spawned out due to the limited defensive depth available to Pakistan geographically, as well as a mitigation measure towards the numerical superiority enjoyed by the IAF.

In the recent years however, proliferation of advanced air defence networks and surface to air missiles (SAMs) by India, has reduced the efficacy of ‘first strike’ as a full proof methodology for the PAF. To counter networks of these advanced integrated air defence systems (IADS), stand-off weapons have been adopted generously by the PAF.
A technology jump in integration of stand-off munitions like the 350 km range Ra’ad and the 550 km range Ra’ad 2 cruise missile, the 120 km range NESCOM H-2/4 SOW on the Mirage III/V & the JF-17Block II, the 60 km range Chinese LS-6 glide bombs and the Mk 80 bomb Range Extension Kits (REK) on the JF-17; along with JDAM munition on Block 52 F-16 — gives a stand-off weapon employment edge to the PAF —  much like what the Brahmos, Spice 2000 and Crystal Maze give to the IAF.





The recently displayed 550 km range Ra’ad 2 Cruise missile on a Mirage III centreline pylon.
A major part of the first strike capability is also operationalised with PAF’s use of land attack missiles like the short range Nasr/ Hatf / Abdali/ Babur missiles and SRBMs like Ghaznavi and Shaheen — I, with varied manner of tactical & nuclear payloads, adding teeth to the attack options available to the PAF. Beyond the dedicated nuclear warheads the Pak Army SSMs targeting Indian cities carry, the Ra’ad and the Nasr short range missiles are also equipped with tactical nuclear weapon (TNW) in the range of 0.5 to 1 Kiloton to take on the Indian Army’s Integrated Battle Groups (IBG).

Within the ambit of Pakistan’s low yield nuclear strike philosophy, it’s possible that these TNWs may also be employed against forward IAF bases and aircraft concentration areas —  to offset the dynamics of local air superiority in favour of the PAF.
It is this recently acquired TNW capability — which Pakistan will leverage in any conflict with India as a bargaining chip to get better military aid and political concessions from the western powers, especially the United States; as well as an acceptable nuclear threshold to engage Indian Army spearheads which penetrate Pakistani boundaries.

*PAF’s doctrinal evolution — Large Force Engagement (LFE) training*
The PAF has kept pace with the evolution of airpower and air combat philosophies over the years. It sees merit in employing large force, full spectrum mission packages as a doctrinal inclusion at the strategy level to achieve local air superiority against numerically superior forces. The PAF has been operationalising and consolidating the organisation and force level structures of large force engagements (LFE) — wherein it has benefited from participation in foreign exercises like the ‘Red Flag’ and ‘Falcon Talon’ with the United States, ‘Anatolian Eagle’ and ‘Indus Viper’ with Turkey and ‘Shaheen’ series with China’s PLAAF. Foreign deployments by the PAF, flying Dissimilar Air Combat Training (DACT) and LFE sorties at Red Flag and Anatolian Eagle have particularly helped the PAF F-16s train towards and achieving an excellent exposure to BVR combat, benchmarking same at an international level. In this, the PAF’s BVR employment tactics are modelled mostly on the USAF’s air combat tactics.





PAF & Turkish F-16 crew at Konya, Turkey during Ex Anatolian Eagle in 2016.




PAF F-16A/B crew from 9 Sqn with USAF pilots in Exercise Red Flag 2010.




USAF F-16 with PAF F-16, Mirage-III and F-7P aircraft during Ex Falcon Talon 2009PAF’s Chief of the Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan participated in the culmination phase of Ex Falcon Talon with USAF at Jacobabad AFB in Jan 2019.




USAF F-16 with PAF F-16, Mirage-III and F-7P aircraft during Ex Falcon Talon 2009PAF’s Chief of the Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan participated in the culmination phase of Ex Falcon Talon with USAF at Jacobabad AFB in Jan 2019.
Incidentally, a major focus area for the PAF during the Sino-Pak ‘Shaheen’ air exercises —  has been to extensively evaluate the operational capability of the PLAAF’s Su-27/ Su-30MKK/ J-11 aircraft. Practice close combat and BVR air melees with these aircraft has revealed significant intelligence on the performance and electromagnetic signatures of the Russian origin Su-27/30/ J-11 platforms and BVR missiles like the R-27 and RVV-AE (R-77 export version) to the participating PAF aircraft. Significant would be the digital mapping and knowledge of the Minimum Abort Ranges (MAR) of these missiles — which could give an edge to the PAF in planning effective BVR tactics against the IAF Sukhoi Su-30MKIs.





PAF personnel pose in front of a PLAAF Su-27UBK during Shaheen-I ex in 2011 in PakistanA PLAAF J-10A fighter taxing out, with PAF’s 7 Sqn Mirage IIIs in the background during Ex Shaheen II.




A PLAAF J-10A fighter taxing out, with PAF’s 7 Sqn Mirage IIIs in the background during Ex Shaheen II.




Pak Army Chief General Bajwa in a Chinese J-10B cockpit during Sino-Pak Ex Shaheen VII in Dec 2018 at Bholari AFB. Interestingly PAF 19 Sqn, equipped with F-16 A/B ADF is based at Bholari.
The PAF F-16s are known to be utilised as the long range aggressor component for these BVR engagements, clandestinely operating with the PLAAF during the exercise in Pakistan. The worthy ELINT capability of Saab 2000 ERIEYE AEW&C system, the Falcon DA-20 EW platform, as well as the ALQ-211 (V)4 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suites (AIDEWS) on the Block-52s — would been very useful towards building a credible threat library and jamming techniques towards the Russian radars carried by the PLAAF.
The PAF thus would perceive itself to have a good measure of the IAF’s Su-30MKI fleet, which is seen as the primary & most numerous threat for the PAF’s wartime missions — focussing its energy on developing a range of anti- Sukhoi tactics. Hence in any IAF vs PAF contemporary aerial engagement — PAF effort would aim to deny the SU-30MKIs any tactical operational latitude.

The red herring for the PAF however is the IAF’s recently upgraded fleet of Mirage-2000 I/TIs — which equipped with the relatively unknown RDY-3 radar and Mica AAMs, are capable of outmatching the F-16C/D Block 52s in BVR combat. Thus the Mirage-2000 I/TIs threat would be taken very seriously by marauding PAF offensive sweeps under most scenarios, the only solace being that the IAF had barely a squadron’s worth of upgraded Mirages at the time during Op Swift Retort.

The PAF’s consolidated strategic and tactical war fighting capability —  especially viewed in the backdrop of India’s fast depleting combat aircraft squadrons and widespread distribution of its fourth generation combat aircraft strength, on both the Pakistan and China border to cater to a two-front war — does make the PAF a superbly equipped and very capable near-peer adversary in a limited war scenario with the IAF.

*Why a localised operation in Jammu & Kashmir?*
Post Balakot, the PAF rightly assessed that a conventional response with its fighter jets across the International Boundary may be counterproductive to its aim— with limited tactical flexibility against the estimated numerical superiority of IAF’s fourth generation aircraft supported by a well networked Integrated Air Command and Control System (IACCS) equipped with advanced surface to air missiles (SAMs) and ground radars. So it focussed its attack plan in the northern sector on the line of control in the J&K.
With the IAF having demonstrated its willingness to cross the Line of Control in J&K and launch stand-off precision attack munitions, the PAF only considered it par for the course to respond back.

Historically, both sides have compartmentalised localised operations in J&K as events short of total war. This crucial aspect, along with the non-linear terrain in Jammu & Kashmir suited the PAF tactically, providing enough manoeuvre space for multi vector large force attacks with surprise and deception — which in theory would overwhelm the small component of IAF aircraft in the area north of Jammu, effectively bisecting the IAF’s defensive capability. At the same time, any IAF Combat Air Patrols (CAP) over the Kashmir valley would not have adequate reaction time against an attack launched from/ near the Line of Control.

The PAF’s riposte — would aim to create meaningful pressure points on the Line of Control (LC), achieving local air superiority for a sufficient period of time to let the PAF strike aircraft demonstrate an advanced strike capability —  that would be an order of magnitude higher than what the IAF showcased in its strikes.
Towards this— the PAF would target Indian Army formations located close to the Line of Control with stand-off weapons.





The versatile JF-17 Block I/II/III will be the backbone of PAF operations in the coming decades.
The PAF’s air operations directorate headed by PAF’s poster boy and the highly regarded Air Marshal Haseeb Paracha, DCAS (Ops), based on a well rehearsed warplan in the event of the IAF striking terrorist camps across the LC — sanctioned air strikes for 27 February against Indian Army’s 16 Corps positions near the Line of Control in Jammu and Kashmir at the following locations —
1. Krishnaghati (KG) top near Poonch
2. Bhimber Gali Brigade HQ
3. Narian Ammunition Dump

These would be targeted with H4 SOW fired by Mirage III/V and the REK GPS guided minitions from the JF-17s —  both from a distance of 40–70 km. The NESCOM H2/H4 are copies of the South African Denel Dynamic’s Raptor I/II glide bombs. The maximum range of the H-2/4 rocket assisted glide bomb is 60/ 120 kilometres. After launch, the H-2/4 is guided to its target by IN/GPS, and uses Infra Red (IR) homing or manual TV guidance in the terminal attack phase for accurate targeting, before exploding a 600 kg warhead.





The H4/ Raptor II glide bomb shown with the strap on Rocket Launch kit at Denel’s booth in 2014The H2/H4 glide bomb explained in detail.




The H4/ Raptor II glide bomb shown with the strap on Rocket Launch kit at Denel’s booth in 2014The H2/H4 glide bomb explained in detail.
The JF-17 would fire stand-off GIDS REK (Range Extension Kits) munition, locally called ‘Takbir’, which is basically an IN/GPS guided glide bomb kit on the Mk 83 bomb, with a maximum range of 60 km. In effect, a REK transforms a dumb bomb into a force multiplier weapon.

The PAF wanted to send across a clear message that — military locations in India were legitimate attack targets by air henceforth — emphasising on the fact, that the Air forces are in balance.





The PAF’s Mk83 REK under testing in 2018.
All in all, the large force mission engagement (LFE) against India on 27 February, also presented the PAF with an opportunity to validate its stand-off strike philosophies and newer generation weapons in actual combat scenarios.
To ensure this action was not interfered by the IAF in any manner, a large component of Air Defence aircraft would be utilised — far in excess than anything seen towards a single mission in the past 1971 and 1965 wars with India.

However, the shock and awe component of air domination, an inherent highlight of the PAF’s war fighting doctrine — was missing. That was until, a decision was made to deliberately draw in and shoot down IAF fighters, preferably the Sukhoi-30MKIs — ambushing them in a PAF dominated kill zone. The PAF was of the opinion —  that the loss of a Sukhoi in air combat would effectively put the IAF on a back-foot.

At the same time, no loss of any PAF aircraft was acceptable

Towards this — the PAF accurately assessed that the IAF was in no mood to escalate and the in place IAF’s Rules of Engagement (ROE) would not permit the IAF fighters to fire on PAF aircraft — until fired upon OR in violation of the line of control. Hence there was to be no meaningful crossing over into Indian territory — with the PAF launching all its weapons and munitions from Pakistani territory inside/ on the line of control.

This riposte by the PAF on 27 Feb 2019, was accorded the official name — OPERATION SWIFT RETORT

The PAF’s Air defence forces had the following tactical objectives for Operation Swift Retort —
1. Achieve local air superiority with Offensive Fighter Sweeps and ensure that the PAF strikes went through unscathed
2. Segregate and block the IAF Defensive Counter Air (DCA) elements — preventing them from interfering with the follow-on PAF strikes
3. Engage and shoot down IAF Defensive Counter Air (DCA) aircraft— ‘engage’ the Sukhoi Su-30MKI, ‘avoid’ the Mirage-2000I/TI’
4. Post action Barrier Combat Air Patrols(BARCAP) in Azad Kashmir to prevent any IAF counter-intrusion into Azad Kashmir
5. De-escalate once mission objectives were achieved.

The ‘deliberate’ decision to shoot down an IAF aircraft — launching air-to-air missiles from own side of Line of Control in violation of existing rules of engagements (ROE)— reflects how far the PAF is willing to go to achieve tactical surprise and psychological dominance over its bête noire and nemesis — the Indian Air Force. The PAF was upping the ante and — the IAF, oblivious to the PAF’s endgame to fire AAMs across the Line of Control — was supposed to walk right into the PAF’s trap.

Or so, that’s what the PAF assumed!

*Op Swift Retort: Participating PAF squadrons*
Operation Swift Retort was led by the tacticians of the Combat Commander’s School embedded within the formations, with the mission commander (an Air Vice Marshal rank officer) flying onboard the Saab ERIEYE.
The Order of Battle (ORBAT) for the Op was as follows-

Mission Lead: Saab 2000 ERIEYEAEW&C from №3 Squadron — one aircraft at 33 Tactical Wing, Minhas/ Kamra AFB, one aircraft operating ex- Sargodha AFB

Offensive Sweep/ BARCAP: F-16 A/B MLU from №9 Squadron — ‘The Griffins’ at 38 Multi-Role Wing, Mushaf/ Sargodha AFB

Offensive Sweep/ BARCAP: F-16 A/B MLU 29 Squadron — ‘Aggressors’ from Combat

Commanders School (CCS) — at 38 Multi-Role Wing, Mushaf/ Sargodha AFB

Offensive Sweep/ BARCAP: JF-17 Block I Flight — ‘Fierce Dragons’ from Combat

Commanders School (CCS) — at 38 Multi-Role Wing, Mushaf/ Sargodha AFB

Escort to Strike/AEW&C: JF-17 BlockII from №14 Squadron — ‘The Tail Choppers’ at 33 Tactical Wing, Minhas/ Kamra AFB

REK Strike: JF-17 BlockI from №16 Squadron — ‘Black Panthers’ at 33 Tactical Wing, Minhas/ Kamra AFB

H4 SOW Strike: Mirage III/V from №15 (TA) Squadron — ‘The Cobras’ at 33 Tactical Wing, Rafiqui AFB

Electronic warfare: Falcon 20 EW from №20 Squadron — ‘The Blinders’ at 33 Tactical Wing, Minhas/ Kamra AFB; operating from Sargodha AFB

The following force level was allocated for Op Swift Retort from the above outfits –

8 x F-16 from 9 Sqn
4 x F-16s from 29 Sqn
8 x F-16s from CCS
4 x JF-17s from 16 Sqn
4 x Mirage from 15 Sqn
1 x Saab ERIEYE from 3 Sqn (another on stand-by)
1 x DA-20 from 20 Sqn

The offensive element for Swift Retort hence include 12 x F-16A/B MLU, 12 x JF-17 Block I/II and 4 x Mirage III/V plus combat reserves at formation level – total of 28 aircraft + reserves

To support Op Swift Retort, the PAF would carry out activation of all its bases abeam Punjab, Rajasthan and Gujrat — aiming to showcase regular flying — as well as undertaking deception vectors towards the International Border to keep IAF Defensive Counter Air (DCA) CAPs tied up south of Jammu— not unlike what the IAF did when the Balakot strike was in progress.

The PAF exclusively handpicked its best crews from the CCS and specialist Squadrons for Op Swift Retort. The PAF’s ‘best of the best’ would take on regular rostered crews from the IAF’s Defensive Counter Air (DCA) effort in Jammu & Kashmir.

*Opening moves — post-afternoon 26 February*
By 1400H on 26 Feb post the Balakot attack, General Qamar Bajwa had met Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan even before the NCA meeting — giving his tacit go-ahead for a counter-stroke by the PAF.

The PAF under pressure from the Pakistan Army to quickly launch its riposte — so as not allowing time for negative public perception in Pakistan to build up beyond ISPR’s control after the Balakot strike by the IAF — decided to spearhead its riposte abeam the Naoshera-Rajouri-Poonch sector of J&K in broad daylight in the morning hours of 27 February , which was the very next day— a time when it was estimated that the IAF’s guard would be down to a great extent.

The PAF had practiced this contingency many times in the past and had an updated attack plan which was activated to take on a post Balakot like situation, focussing on a response by the PAF in event of IAF strikes on Pak supported terror camps. In the afternoon, after a high level coordination meeting at Sargodha, elements of the above mentioned squadrons practiced the specific sequence of planned events with aircraft rendezvous (RV), formation keeping and weapon release (SOW)/ BVR combat drills till the Forming up points (FUP). FUPs were the jumpstart points about 50–75 km in the rear, through which the various elements of the mission would channel-in inside the Op zone.

An Impression of a routine large force exercise was given to the IAF AWACS and ground radars keenly monitoring the event from across the border. To give credibility to routine training/ operational flights, most of the PAF aircraft flew with their Identify Friend or Foe (IFF) transponders ON, which are routinely switched off during offensive missions.
In between — the cat and mouse play between the IAF and the PAF continued, with the regulation runs towards the International border to draw out on-station combat air patrols (CAPs) on either side.

Meanwhile, the Indian Air Force was taking no chances, with all combat aircraft mobilised to their wartime locations by the evening of 26 Feb. Throughout the intervening night of 26/27 Feb, the IAF was on maximum alert expecting the PAF’s counter-attack — wherein Indian AEW&C aircraft scanned Pakistani skies for any sign of protracted activity towards India — with all vital zones on the western border being well covered by on-station Combat air Patrols (CAP), flying harmonised defensive patterns.

On the other side, the PAF AEW&C’s and ELINT aircraft especially focussed their attention on the area north of Pathankot for radar & electronic emissions of Indian combat jets on CAP missions in Jammu & Kashmir to zero their location and types.

The PAF deduced the following basis the surveillance and existing Air Intelligence on the IAF-

1. There was at least one Indian Air Force 4th Gen aircraft Defensive Counter Air (DCA) CAP for defence of the Kashmir valley airborne 24×7.
2. The IAF’s Su-30MKI and Mirage-2000I/TIs were identified to be part of this DCA mission operating in the Kashmir bowl.
3. There was a Squadron of MiG-21 Bison aircraft permanently based at Srinagar AFB, mounting Operational Readiness Platforms (ORP) at Srinagar and Awantipore AFBs. These also flew an occasional DCA CAP mission in support of the Su-30MKI/Mirage-2000I/TIs. However, the PAF did not consider the Mig-21 Bison as a worthwhile threat to the planned attack.
The PAF’s counterstroke would consist of 30–40 combat aircraft on 27 Feb morning, which would initially give an impression of routine flying, converting into attack vectors — specifically exploiting the gaps around the ‘change over times’ of the IAF DCA air patrols over their holding zones in the Kashmir valley.
This would ensure that the IAF CAPs would not have adequate endurance to take on the PAF threat.

The PAF was ready to deliver the coup de grace, with 27 February 2019 to go down as the ‘surprise’ day in the history of the Pakistan Air Force, where yet again its material and martial dominance would be well established over the Indian Air Force. The PAF had the numerical superiority, technology ascendency and the will to attack at the time and place of its choosing. And the best fighter pilots from Pakistan would be involved towards execution of the highly bold Op Swift Retort.

As has been a case time immemorial, the Pakistan Air Force did not cater to the resolute resolve and superlative training levels of the Indian Air Force fighter pilots. But then, this is another story, a story which did not end very well for the ambitious goals set by the PAF for Operation Swift Retort.

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## GriffinsRule

Basically spreading lies with information that was shared on this forum and over the months. Nothing new there and and in fact the same repetition of F-16 shot down etc etc.

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## CT-9914 "Snoop"

Anyone got any info on the 29 squadron? When was it formed and where is it posted?


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## Haris Ali2140

GriffinsRule said:


> Basically spreading lies with information that was shared on this forum and over the months. Nothing new there and and in fact the same repetition of F-16 shot down etc etc.


These guys are hardcore baisharams. Sameer Joshi after running out of excuses wrote on twitter that it was PAF's best vs IAF's normal.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1172993877214732288

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## Aamir Hussain

Abhi is still driving a version of this a/c!!!!

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## ziaulislam

mingle said:


> Time to retire them all they are obsolete now in current theatre



And replace with what?
F7 are just kinda back up they are obsolete in current war fare

Mirages hold value in CAS/cluster ammunition and startegic role with Raad

Even the indian bisons with BVR were in trouble


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## The Eagle

Shah_Deu said:


> *AssalamoAlikum guys, Just went through an Indian article on The Print, found it interesteing (apart from the usual Indian sabre-rattling). Hence shared *
> 
> *https://theprint.in/defence/how-pak...-the-mission-the-fighters-the-tactics/291522/*
> 
> 
> *How Pakistan planned to hit India back for Balakot — the mission, the fighters, the tactics*
> 
> *Pakistan was incapable of affording a full-blown war with India. But the response  still had to convey an ‘impression’ to India and the world that Islamabad was willing to escalate the crisis.*
> SAMEER JOSHI Updated: 15 September, 2019 10:11 am IST
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IAF Mirage 2000 jets played a key role in air operations against Pakistan on the 26 and 27 February 2019 | Photo:  Sameer Joshi
> 
> The Indian Air Force fought one of the most significant post-Independence aerial clashes with its arch rival, the Pakistan Air Force on 27 February 2019. It’s been long since the world saw two nuclear-armed, fourth generation combat aircraft-equipped near-peer adversaries engaging each other in a highly dynamic full spectrum operational environment. This event saw the use of class leading beyond visual range (BVR) missiles in an air-to-air engagement by Pakistan; along with application of modern air combat tactics and doctrinal philosophies on diverse frontage by both sides.
> 
> This is a detailed OSINT analysis of the events that took place between 0930 to 1030H on India’s western border, on a day which would go down in the annals of aerial combat history for the grit and determination shown by a small group of Indian fighter pilots in blunting a well-executed large force PAF package attacking ground targets in south Kashmir; as well as the turning the tables on the dogged PAF F-16 ambush, which was hell bent on shooting IAF Sukhoi Su-30MKIs at all costs. What was very obvious by the end of the Pakistan’s Operation Swift Retort was that the PAF had bitten far more than it could chew — in an ignominious honour, losing a 4th generation F-16 to a 3rd generation MiG-21 in a fierce counter-attack by the Indian Air Force.
> 
> In this first part of a two part write-up on the subject, I will examine the PAF’s combat strength, doctrine, limitations, military aim and tactical plan for Op Swift retort, as well as identify the various participating strike, air defence and support formations which executed the various missions on 27 Feb 2019.
> 
> The second part will analyse the execution, conduct, achievements and lessons learnt from this aerial skirmish, especially highlighting the core role played by the IAF in blunting this attack. The second part will be released in the coming days on ThePrint.
> 
> *Prelude — Crossing the Rubicon*
> Early morning at 0330H on 26 February 2019, Mirage 2000 aircraft of the Indian Air Force made shallow incursions into the Azad Kashmir and launched a pre-emtive strike on the Jaish-e-Mohammad (JeM) terror camp at Jabba Top, Balakot in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa  —  Pakistan  — hitting the targets as planned. These strikes were a direct response to the Pakistan-supported terror group JeM’s suicide attack on the convoy of Indian CRPF jawans at Pulwama near Srinagar on 14 February.
> 
> The IAF strikes completely surprised the Pakistani military establishment; in that India used airpower as a strategic signalling tool  —  in a less than war scenario  —  crossing the Line of Control (LoC) on an offensive attack mission inside Pakistan for the first time since the 1971 Indo-Pak war.
> 
> High resolution satellite imagery available in public domain confirms India’s claim  — the primary target, the Mujahid hostel, displays clean entry marks of 3 Spice 2000 penetrator bombs in the roof. Pre-strike and post-strike 30 cm high resolution imagery can be sourced to validate the same  —  including the hasty repair work carried out by the Pakistani Army in the days after the strike.
> 
> Much like the famed crossing of the Rubicon river by Julius Caesar back in 49 BC that precipitated the Roman civil war ,  the IAF’s attack was a crisp and clear escalatory message to Pakistan that post these air strikes by India, the mutual relationship had reached a point of no return  —  where Pakistan would be directly accountable for any attack by non-state actors and proxies it supports.
> 
> Having achieved the limited military aim to demonstrate its attack capability, the IAF now waited to counter Pakistan’s expected response  —  while being prepared for an all-out war.
> 
> *Scripting Pakistan’s response*
> The atmosphere in Pakistan all through the day on 26 February was very tense following the IAF’s strikes, with the military establishment in a huddle over how to respond to India’s action. Pakistan military’s pride was severely dented by the Indian strike  —  especially the violation of the LoC by the IAF  —  with its domestic audience approval ratings taking a nose dive.
> 
> The military completely sealed off the targeted camp in Balakot, discouraging any independent verification of on-site damage. Casualties were hastily transferred to the nearby Army camp at Shinkiari. As per available reports the JeM has lost at least 150 of its cadre in this strike. A deception plan by the Pakistani Army’s ISPR was kicked off to cover up  —  indicating that the IAF bombs had missed the target.
> 
> Sometime in the afternoon, Pakistan Prime Minister Imran Khan called for an emergency meeting of the National Command Authority (NCA), Pakistan’s highest decision-making body, where the ongoing situation was deliberated at length and all options for an appropriate response discussed. The ability of the Pakistani nation to get all diverse and discontenting voices together in the hour of a national crisis — especially against a perceived Indian aggression, ensured that all participants agreed in unison that  escalation by India needed to be matched by an equivalent military effort.
> 
> With Pakistan’s territorial integrity violated ,  the Pakistan Air Force, in a quid pro response, was chosen to hit back at India.
> 
> While Pakistan politically may be prepared for war with India, economically and geopolitically it is in a state of deep mess. It’s foreign reserves are at an all-time low, with endless debt related issues plaguing the economy at large. The central bank forecasts growth at 3.5 to 4 per cent in the 12 months to end-June, well short of a government target of 6.2 per cent. The IMF paints an even gloomier picture, predicting Pakistan’s growth of 2.9 per cent in 2019 and 2.8 per cent the following year. Islamabad obtained temporary relief from close allies such as China and Saudi Arabia with short-term loans worth more than $10 billion to buffer foreign currency reserves and ease pressures on the country’s current account. But analysts called an IMF bailout inevitable, with Pakistan also facing an increasing fiscal crunch ahead of the annual budget spending review for the next financial year starting July2019. Any sustained conflict with India would be a literal blow towards getting anything from the IMF and the world community.
> 
> On the other hand, pressure from the Financial Action Task Force (FATF) on Pakistan’s role as a partner in funding terror across the world is also building up, with Pakistan standing to lose billions of dollars in further aid. With its widespread support to terrorists exposed on umpteen occasions in the past decades, old allies like the United States, United Kingdom and France are no longer on its side  —  Pakistan is widely being branded as a nation spawning and supporting terrorism. Pakistan has so far managed to avoid isolation only through the deft international power play by its ‘all weather’ friend and ‘iron brother’ China.
> 
> The Chinese hypocrisy and double standards are exposed in its support to Pakistan on the Masood Azhar issue, which is dictated by strategic and economic investments it has made in Pakistan over the years  —  especially in the China Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC). With $62 billion invested till date, CPEC has spread its tentacles from Gilgit to Gwader to benefit largely Chinese companies and contractors. So while China is game in using Pakistan as a tool to checkmate India in its backyard with consistent military aid and support on all quarters  —  its current economic investments in Pakistan take a serious hit in case of an all-out Indo-Pakistan war. Similarly, traditional allies like Saudi Arabia and the UAE are also averse to any war with India and advised restraint to Pakistan due to their own economic and geopolitical aspirations in South East Asia.
> 
> *The PAF’s dilemma*
> As Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan, the Chief of the Pakistan Air Force , would have sat down to plan an appropriate response, he would have found himself in uncharted territory. The PAF’s self-proclaimed USP  —  its dynamic operational flexibility and aggressive doctrinal methodology  —  was unsparingly weighed down by the problems plaguing the Pakistani nation, especially its economic mess  —  which would be counterproductive to the PAF’s ability to deliver the so called emphatic blow, as well as sustain round-the-clock operations against India for a considerable duration — bleeding precious aircraft and fuel reserves required to fight a long lasting engagement.
> 
> With the surge in IAF’s flying quantum in February, the PAF had been forced to break discipline on the use of its 20-day general service aviation fuel reserve and would have been eating into its 25-day strategic war reserve maintained by Pakistan State Oil (PSO) sooner than later. Similarly as was noticed back in 1999 during the Kargil conflict, the F-16 and the older Mirage III/V aircraft fleets cannot sustain a lengthy state of operational readiness  —  consuming critical spares, weapon and flying hours meant for actual hostilities. With the US warming up to India in all spheres in the recent past, OEM support and supplies for the equipment and armament purchased through various US Congress sanctions in the last decade  —  ironically to be used in the war against terror  —  would be under scrutiny and literally come to a halt, further adding to the PAF’s woes. While the PAF has efficiently mitigated the spare and airframe calendar life issues with purchase of additional F-16s from Jordan (ADF version) and a mid-life upgrade (MLU) of its existing F-16 fleet through Turkey — any PAF military response would need to factor these crucial aspects needed to fight an extended all-out war with India.
> 
> _*Also read:* 1965 Sargodha attack: How IAF hit Pakistan’s most protected base & destroyed 10 aircraft_
> 
> 
> *PAF’s military aim post-Balakot*
> Pakistan’s geopolitical and economic considerations, when mated with data available from the PAF’s large force engagement (LFE) on 27 February 2019 ,  provides a good assessment of the PAF’s military aim towards the response towards the Balakot attack, which are as follows —
> 1 . Demonstrate ‘perceptible tactical brilliance’ of the PAF in a bold operation — restoring the measure of honour lost due to the Indian strikes a day prior in public perception
> 2 . Seize the military initiative back from the IAF — not letting India exploit the new normal
> 3 . Highlight — that the forces are in balance and the liberty of attacking at will without repercussions for India is not an option
> 4 . Aim for a quick outcome within an established time frame — avoiding escalation beyond the perceived combat threshold of an all-out war
> 5.  Preserve — its force levels at all costs
> This counterstroke, given that Pakistan was incapable of affording a full blown war with India — still had to be significant to convey an ‘impression’ to India and the world community — that Pakistan was willing to escalate the crisis and extended diplomacy was the only way ahead to de-escalate the crisis. Towards this a parallel peace posture would be propagated through the Pak Foreign Office.
> 
> *Assessing PAF’s military preparedness*
> The Pakistan Air Force has a chequered history in the various wars with India. Widely showcased by Pak propaganda over the years as a pantheon of past glory for Pakistan — the PAF is a professional force which has always attracted the best human capital in Pakistan to man its diverse cockpits. In fact, the PAF has one of the highest rejection rates amongst air forces in the world, while clinically aiming at a high ratio of 2.5 pilots per aircraft cockpit— meaning it can sustain a greater sortie rate over a protracted conflict — with lesser number of aircraft.
> 
> In-spite of living in the shadow of a much larger Pakistan Army, the PAF has remarkably done well to update and increase its airpower assets over the last couple of decades; attempting to maintain parity with the IAF at the — technological, operational training and air war doctrine employment levels.
> 
> Post 9/11, widespread American aid and concessions as a close ally in the war on terror and the perceived western need to arm Pakistan with modern tactical weapons to match the Indian superiority threshold, ostensibly to avoid a nuclear meltdown in the region — has progressively helped the PAF in upgrading its F-16 Falcon fleet and erode Indian Air Force’s numerical and technical superiority in air superiority fighters (ASF) equipped with beyond visual range (BVR) air-to-air missiles. Currently PAF has 18 top of line F-16 C/D Block 52 (inducted in 2010), 28 F-16 A/B ADF (purchased from Jordan in 2014 and 2016) and 31 F-16 A/B MLU (upgraded by TAI, Turkey between 2012–2014).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Block 52, inducted in 2010, is the most advanced version of the F-16 in PAF’s inventory.
> While the newer Block 52s are the most advanced version of F-16 with the PAF, the PAF has unwearyingly ensured that all its F-16s (less the Jordanian lot) are upgraded and equipped with the Northrop Grumman AN/APG — 68 (V)9 multi-mode radar and the AIM-120 C-5 AMRAAM missile through the various Mid Life Upgrade (MLU) initiatives. The Jordanian supplied F-16 A/B Block 15 ADF version is equipped with the APG-66 (V)2 and the AMRAAM. The AIM-120 C-5 Advanced Medium Range Air to Air Missile (AMRAAM) with its active missile seeker and a max range of around 100 km, is amongst the most advanced air to air missile operational in the world, widely used by NATO and close allies of the United States. Last known, the PAF has around 500 AMRAAMs in its stockpile.
> The F-16 Falcon, armed with the AMRAAM missile, has given the PAF an edge over the IAF in beyond visual range (BVR) combat since 2010, a capability it had lacked back in the last war fought with India in Kargil 1999.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The PAF receiving its first batch of F-16A/B ADF purchased from Jordan in 2014.
> Alongside, the PAF has inducted the modern JF-17 Block I/II Thunder multirole fighter in large numbers to replace its ageing fleet of F-6 and F-7 fighters. The JF-17 program is a joint Sino — Pakistan effort, which has mostly Chinese avionics and armament. The onboard NRIET KLJ-7 Pulse Doppler Multi mode attack has decent performance and is teamed with the SD-10A (PL-12) active guidance BVR AAM, which is based on the technology used in the Russian R-77 (AA-12 Adder) missile. The JF-17 is also able to carry a wide array of air to ground armament; much more than the American supplied F-16. The Block II version introduces air-air-refuelling and the Block III will feature and AESA AI radar and the potent SD-10B AAM along with other updates. There are upward of 140 JF-17s in PAF service, with an aim to have a fleet of 250 in the next few years.
> 
> These modern PAF fighters are supported by an advanced and superbly networked Air Defence environment on the ground, as well as 4 Saab-2000 ERIEYE and the 4 ZDK-03 series airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) platforms. 2 more Saab ERIEYEs will be inducted by 2020 to give the PAF a total of 10 AEW&C aircraft — which will be able to efficiently provide 24 x 7 surveillance across Pakistan.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This trio comprising of the F-16, JF-17 and the EYIEYE will form the tip of any PAF offensive air campaign.
> A noteworthy achievement for the PAF has been the continuous upgradation of its older Mirage III/V fleet over the years at a low cost fraction — thus keeping a realistic strike option in place. PAF’s Mirage fleet consists of 90 Mirage-III and 90 Mirage-V aircraft for interceptor and attack roles respectively. PAF modernized its Mirage jets in an MLU program named Project ROSE (Retro Fit of Strike Element) at Aeronautical Complex in Kamra starting in end 1990s. Despite challenges and problems, the ROSE program provided a platform to PAF to experience aerial technology integration and acquire experience, gaining confidence to undertake similar project with confidence in future, which include the JF-17s. The Mirage in the PAF service have received new capabilities that improve its performance in battle dramatically. The Mirage III have been equipped with the FIAR Grifo M3 multi-mode Airborne Interception radar and along with the Mirage Vs, have been modified to carry out night missions and sophisticated systems like SAGEM Forward-looking infrared (FLIR) imaging sensors, an integrated Electronic Warfare suite, air-to-air refuelling capability and integration of stand-off precision attack munition. Pakistan Navy also operates specially upgraded Mirage aircraft for its maritime missions, which are equipped with French-made Exocet anti-Ship missiles. PAF will soon get 30+ more Mirages from Egypt, which may be utilized for the maintenance of airframes and spares for the existing fleet. Interestingly, in spite of being a generation behind the under induction JF-17, the Mirage III/V has better low level penetration range and dash capability than the JF-17 — which with the use of stand-off weapons makes it an effective weapon delivery platform under most operational scenarios.
> 
> The PAF has also inducted four IL-78MP Multi-Role Tanker Transport (MRTT) from Ukraine. While the ERIEYE and the ZDKs can look deep inside India, the tankers can provide operational support for any PAF strike deep in the Indian heartland.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The IL-78MP refuelling a Mirage V.
> What is very visible in the PAF’s various newer acquisitions, operational and maintenance philosophies and upgrade programs – is its emphasis on widespread flexibility and reliability towards achieving a high sortie rate during crisis. The PAF has also focussed persistently on the right fit of platforms, a bang for the buck necessary to execute all facets of full spectrum, networked missions across its geographical bounds of operational influence.
> 
> *PAF’s doctrinal evolution — stand-off munition/tactical land attack missiles*
> The PAF’s war fighting doctrine has primarily relied upon surprise and pre-emptive strikes as a definitive tool to neutralise IAF’s offensive power and gain numerical parity during the early phase of the conflict — This strategy has spawned out due to the limited defensive depth available to Pakistan geographically, as well as a mitigation measure towards the numerical superiority enjoyed by the IAF.
> 
> In the recent years however, proliferation of advanced air defence networks and surface to air missiles (SAMs) by India, has reduced the efficacy of ‘first strike’ as a full proof methodology for the PAF. To counter networks of these advanced integrated air defence systems (IADS), stand-off weapons have been adopted generously by the PAF.
> A technology jump in integration of stand-off munitions like the 350 km range Ra’ad and the 550 km range Ra’ad 2 cruise missile, the 120 km range NESCOM H-2/4 SOW on the Mirage III/V & the JF-17Block II, the 60 km range Chinese LS-6 glide bombs and the Mk 80 bomb Range Extension Kits (REK) on the JF-17; along with JDAM munition on Block 52 F-16 — gives a stand-off weapon employment edge to the PAF —  much like what the Brahmos, Spice 2000 and Crystal Maze give to the IAF.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The recently displayed 550 km range Ra’ad 2 Cruise missile on a Mirage III centreline pylon.
> A major part of the first strike capability is also operationalised with PAF’s use of land attack missiles like the short range Nasr/ Hatf / Abdali/ Babur missiles and SRBMs like Ghaznavi and Shaheen — I, with varied manner of tactical & nuclear payloads, adding teeth to the attack options available to the PAF. Beyond the dedicated nuclear warheads the Pak Army SSMs targeting Indian cities carry, the Ra’ad and the Nasr short range missiles are also equipped with tactical nuclear weapon (TNW) in the range of 0.5 to 1 Kiloton to take on the Indian Army’s Integrated Battle Groups (IBG).
> 
> Within the ambit of Pakistan’s low yield nuclear strike philosophy, it’s possible that these TNWs may also be employed against forward IAF bases and aircraft concentration areas —  to offset the dynamics of local air superiority in favour of the PAF.
> It is this recently acquired TNW capability — which Pakistan will leverage in any conflict with India as a bargaining chip to get better military aid and political concessions from the western powers, especially the United States; as well as an acceptable nuclear threshold to engage Indian Army spearheads which penetrate Pakistani boundaries.
> 
> *PAF’s doctrinal evolution — Large Force Engagement (LFE) training*
> The PAF has kept pace with the evolution of airpower and air combat philosophies over the years. It sees merit in employing large force, full spectrum mission packages as a doctrinal inclusion at the strategy level to achieve local air superiority against numerically superior forces. The PAF has been operationalising and consolidating the organisation and force level structures of large force engagements (LFE) — wherein it has benefited from participation in foreign exercises like the ‘Red Flag’ and ‘Falcon Talon’ with the United States, ‘Anatolian Eagle’ and ‘Indus Viper’ with Turkey and ‘Shaheen’ series with China’s PLAAF. Foreign deployments by the PAF, flying Dissimilar Air Combat Training (DACT) and LFE sorties at Red Flag and Anatolian Eagle have particularly helped the PAF F-16s train towards and achieving an excellent exposure to BVR combat, benchmarking same at an international level. In this, the PAF’s BVR employment tactics are modelled mostly on the USAF’s air combat tactics.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PAF & Turkish F-16 crew at Konya, Turkey during Ex Anatolian Eagle in 2016.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PAF F-16A/B crew from 9 Sqn with USAF pilots in Exercise Red Flag 2010.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> USAF F-16 with PAF F-16, Mirage-III and F-7P aircraft during Ex Falcon Talon 2009PAF’s Chief of the Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan participated in the culmination phase of Ex Falcon Talon with USAF at Jacobabad AFB in Jan 2019.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> USAF F-16 with PAF F-16, Mirage-III and F-7P aircraft during Ex Falcon Talon 2009PAF’s Chief of the Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan participated in the culmination phase of Ex Falcon Talon with USAF at Jacobabad AFB in Jan 2019.
> Incidentally, a major focus area for the PAF during the Sino-Pak ‘Shaheen’ air exercises —  has been to extensively evaluate the operational capability of the PLAAF’s Su-27/ Su-30MKK/ J-11 aircraft. Practice close combat and BVR air melees with these aircraft has revealed significant intelligence on the performance and electromagnetic signatures of the Russian origin Su-27/30/ J-11 platforms and BVR missiles like the R-27 and RVV-AE (R-77 export version) to the participating PAF aircraft. Significant would be the digital mapping and knowledge of the Minimum Abort Ranges (MAR) of these missiles — which could give an edge to the PAF in planning effective BVR tactics against the IAF Sukhoi Su-30MKIs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PAF personnel pose in front of a PLAAF Su-27UBK during Shaheen-I ex in 2011 in PakistanA PLAAF J-10A fighter taxing out, with PAF’s 7 Sqn Mirage IIIs in the background during Ex Shaheen II.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A PLAAF J-10A fighter taxing out, with PAF’s 7 Sqn Mirage IIIs in the background during Ex Shaheen II.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pak Army Chief General Bajwa in a Chinese J-10B cockpit during Sino-Pak Ex Shaheen VII in Dec 2018 at Bholari AFB. Interestingly PAF 19 Sqn, equipped with F-16 A/B ADF is based at Bholari.
> The PAF F-16s are known to be utilised as the long range aggressor component for these BVR engagements, clandestinely operating with the PLAAF during the exercise in Pakistan. The worthy ELINT capability of Saab 2000 ERIEYE AEW&C system, the Falcon DA-20 EW platform, as well as the ALQ-211 (V)4 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suites (AIDEWS) on the Block-52s — would been very useful towards building a credible threat library and jamming techniques towards the Russian radars carried by the PLAAF.
> The PAF thus would perceive itself to have a good measure of the IAF’s Su-30MKI fleet, which is seen as the primary & most numerous threat for the PAF’s wartime missions — focussing its energy on developing a range of anti- Sukhoi tactics. Hence in any IAF vs PAF contemporary aerial engagement — PAF effort would aim to deny the SU-30MKIs any tactical operational latitude.
> 
> The red herring for the PAF however is the IAF’s recently upgraded fleet of Mirage-2000 I/TIs — which equipped with the relatively unknown RDY-3 radar and Mica AAMs, are capable of outmatching the F-16C/D Block 52s in BVR combat. Thus the Mirage-2000 I/TIs threat would be taken very seriously by marauding PAF offensive sweeps under most scenarios, the only solace being that the IAF had barely a squadron’s worth of upgraded Mirages at the time during Op Swift Retort.
> 
> The PAF’s consolidated strategic and tactical war fighting capability —  especially viewed in the backdrop of India’s fast depleting combat aircraft squadrons and widespread distribution of its fourth generation combat aircraft strength, on both the Pakistan and China border to cater to a two-front war — does make the PAF a superbly equipped and very capable near-peer adversary in a limited war scenario with the IAF.
> 
> *Why a localised operation in Jammu & Kashmir?*
> Post Balakot, the PAF rightly assessed that a conventional response with its fighter jets across the International Boundary may be counterproductive to its aim— with limited tactical flexibility against the estimated numerical superiority of IAF’s fourth generation aircraft supported by a well networked Integrated Air Command and Control System (IACCS) equipped with advanced surface to air missiles (SAMs) and ground radars. So it focussed its attack plan in the northern sector on the line of control in the J&K.
> With the IAF having demonstrated its willingness to cross the Line of Control in J&K and launch stand-off precision attack munitions, the PAF only considered it par for the course to respond back.
> 
> Historically, both sides have compartmentalised localised operations in J&K as events short of total war. This crucial aspect, along with the non-linear terrain in Jammu & Kashmir suited the PAF tactically, providing enough manoeuvre space for multi vector large force attacks with surprise and deception — which in theory would overwhelm the small component of IAF aircraft in the area north of Jammu, effectively bisecting the IAF’s defensive capability. At the same time, any IAF Combat Air Patrols (CAP) over the Kashmir valley would not have adequate reaction time against an attack launched from/ near the Line of Control.
> 
> The PAF’s riposte — would aim to create meaningful pressure points on the Line of Control (LC), achieving local air superiority for a sufficient period of time to let the PAF strike aircraft demonstrate an advanced strike capability —  that would be an order of magnitude higher than what the IAF showcased in its strikes.
> Towards this— the PAF would target Indian Army formations located close to the Line of Control with stand-off weapons.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The versatile JF-17 Block I/II/III will be the backbone of PAF operations in the coming decades.
> The PAF’s air operations directorate headed by PAF’s poster boy and the highly regarded Air Marshal Haseeb Paracha, DCAS (Ops), based on a well rehearsed warplan in the event of the IAF striking terrorist camps across the LC — sanctioned air strikes for 27 February against Indian Army’s 16 Corps positions near the Line of Control in Jammu and Kashmir at the following locations —
> 1. Krishnaghati (KG) top near Poonch
> 2. Bhimber Gali Brigade HQ
> 3. Narian Ammunition Dump
> 
> These would be targeted with H4 SOW fired by Mirage III/V and the REK GPS guided minitions from the JF-17s —  both from a distance of 40–70 km. The NESCOM H2/H4 are copies of the South African Denel Dynamic’s Raptor I/II glide bombs. The maximum range of the H-2/4 rocket assisted glide bomb is 60/ 120 kilometres. After launch, the H-2/4 is guided to its target by IN/GPS, and uses Infra Red (IR) homing or manual TV guidance in the terminal attack phase for accurate targeting, before exploding a 600 kg warhead.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The H4/ Raptor II glide bomb shown with the strap on Rocket Launch kit at Denel’s booth in 2014The H2/H4 glide bomb explained in detail.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The H4/ Raptor II glide bomb shown with the strap on Rocket Launch kit at Denel’s booth in 2014The H2/H4 glide bomb explained in detail.
> The JF-17 would fire stand-off GIDS REK (Range Extension Kits) munition, locally called ‘Takbir’, which is basically an IN/GPS guided glide bomb kit on the Mk 83 bomb, with a maximum range of 60 km. In effect, a REK transforms a dumb bomb into a force multiplier weapon.
> 
> The PAF wanted to send across a clear message that — military locations in India were legitimate attack targets by air henceforth — emphasising on the fact, that the Air forces are in balance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The PAF’s Mk83 REK under testing in 2018.
> All in all, the large force mission engagement (LFE) against India on 27 February, also presented the PAF with an opportunity to validate its stand-off strike philosophies and newer generation weapons in actual combat scenarios.
> To ensure this action was not interfered by the IAF in any manner, a large component of Air Defence aircraft would be utilised — far in excess than anything seen towards a single mission in the past 1971 and 1965 wars with India.
> 
> However, the shock and awe component of air domination, an inherent highlight of the PAF’s war fighting doctrine — was missing. That was until, a decision was made to deliberately draw in and shoot down IAF fighters, preferably the Sukhoi-30MKIs — ambushing them in a PAF dominated kill zone. The PAF was of the opinion —  that the loss of a Sukhoi in air combat would effectively put the IAF on a back-foot.
> 
> At the same time, no loss of any PAF aircraft was acceptable
> 
> Towards this — the PAF accurately assessed that the IAF was in no mood to escalate and the in place IAF’s Rules of Engagement (ROE) would not permit the IAF fighters to fire on PAF aircraft — until fired upon OR in violation of the line of control. Hence there was to be no meaningful crossing over into Indian territory — with the PAF launching all its weapons and munitions from Pakistani territory inside/ on the line of control.
> 
> This riposte by the PAF on 27 Feb 2019, was accorded the official name — OPERATION SWIFT RETORT
> 
> The PAF’s Air defence forces had the following tactical objectives for Operation Swift Retort —
> 1. Achieve local air superiority with Offensive Fighter Sweeps and ensure that the PAF strikes went through unscathed
> 2. Segregate and block the IAF Defensive Counter Air (DCA) elements — preventing them from interfering with the follow-on PAF strikes
> 3. Engage and shoot down IAF Defensive Counter Air (DCA) aircraft— ‘engage’ the Sukhoi Su-30MKI, ‘avoid’ the Mirage-2000I/TI’
> 4. Post action Barrier Combat Air Patrols(BARCAP) in Azad Kashmir to prevent any IAF counter-intrusion into Azad Kashmir
> 5. De-escalate once mission objectives were achieved.
> 
> The ‘deliberate’ decision to shoot down an IAF aircraft — launching air-to-air missiles from own side of Line of Control in violation of existing rules of engagements (ROE)— reflects how far the PAF is willing to go to achieve tactical surprise and psychological dominance over its bête noire and nemesis — the Indian Air Force. The PAF was upping the ante and — the IAF, oblivious to the PAF’s endgame to fire AAMs across the Line of Control — was supposed to walk right into the PAF’s trap.
> 
> Or so, that’s what the PAF assumed!
> 
> *Op Swift Retort: Participating PAF squadrons*
> Operation Swift Retort was led by the tacticians of the Combat Commander’s School embedded within the formations, with the mission commander (an Air Vice Marshal rank officer) flying onboard the Saab ERIEYE.
> The Order of Battle (ORBAT) for the Op was as follows-
> 
> Mission Lead: Saab 2000 ERIEYEAEW&C from №3 Squadron — one aircraft at 33 Tactical Wing, Minhas/ Kamra AFB, one aircraft operating ex- Sargodha AFB
> 
> Offensive Sweep/ BARCAP: F-16 A/B MLU from №9 Squadron — ‘The Griffins’ at 38 Multi-Role Wing, Mushaf/ Sargodha AFB
> 
> Offensive Sweep/ BARCAP: F-16 A/B MLU 29 Squadron — ‘Aggressors’ from Combat
> 
> Commanders School (CCS) — at 38 Multi-Role Wing, Mushaf/ Sargodha AFB
> 
> Offensive Sweep/ BARCAP: JF-17 Block I Flight — ‘Fierce Dragons’ from Combat
> 
> Commanders School (CCS) — at 38 Multi-Role Wing, Mushaf/ Sargodha AFB
> 
> Escort to Strike/AEW&C: JF-17 BlockII from №14 Squadron — ‘The Tail Choppers’ at 33 Tactical Wing, Minhas/ Kamra AFB
> 
> REK Strike: JF-17 BlockI from №16 Squadron — ‘Black Panthers’ at 33 Tactical Wing, Minhas/ Kamra AFB
> 
> H4 SOW Strike: Mirage III/V from №15 (TA) Squadron — ‘The Cobras’ at 33 Tactical Wing, Rafiqui AFB
> 
> Electronic warfare: Falcon 20 EW from №20 Squadron — ‘The Blinders’ at 33 Tactical Wing, Minhas/ Kamra AFB; operating from Sargodha AFB
> 
> The following force level was allocated for Op Swift Retort from the above outfits –
> 
> 8 x F-16 from 9 Sqn
> 4 x F-16s from 29 Sqn
> 8 x F-16s from CCS
> 4 x JF-17s from 16 Sqn
> 4 x Mirage from 15 Sqn
> 1 x Saab ERIEYE from 3 Sqn (another on stand-by)
> 1 x DA-20 from 20 Sqn
> 
> The offensive element for Swift Retort hence include 12 x F-16A/B MLU, 12 x JF-17 Block I/II and 4 x Mirage III/V plus combat reserves at formation level – total of 28 aircraft + reserves
> 
> To support Op Swift Retort, the PAF would carry out activation of all its bases abeam Punjab, Rajasthan and Gujrat — aiming to showcase regular flying — as well as undertaking deception vectors towards the International Border to keep IAF Defensive Counter Air (DCA) CAPs tied up south of Jammu— not unlike what the IAF did when the Balakot strike was in progress.
> 
> The PAF exclusively handpicked its best crews from the CCS and specialist Squadrons for Op Swift Retort. The PAF’s ‘best of the best’ would take on regular rostered crews from the IAF’s Defensive Counter Air (DCA) effort in Jammu & Kashmir.
> 
> *Opening moves — post-afternoon 26 February*
> By 1400H on 26 Feb post the Balakot attack, General Qamar Bajwa had met Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan even before the NCA meeting — giving his tacit go-ahead for a counter-stroke by the PAF.
> 
> The PAF under pressure from the Pakistan Army to quickly launch its riposte — so as not allowing time for negative public perception in Pakistan to build up beyond ISPR’s control after the Balakot strike by the IAF — decided to spearhead its riposte abeam the Naoshera-Rajouri-Poonch sector of J&K in broad daylight in the morning hours of 27 February , which was the very next day— a time when it was estimated that the IAF’s guard would be down to a great extent.
> 
> The PAF had practiced this contingency many times in the past and had an updated attack plan which was activated to take on a post Balakot like situation, focussing on a response by the PAF in event of IAF strikes on Pak supported terror camps. In the afternoon, after a high level coordination meeting at Sargodha, elements of the above mentioned squadrons practiced the specific sequence of planned events with aircraft rendezvous (RV), formation keeping and weapon release (SOW)/ BVR combat drills till the Forming up points (FUP). FUPs were the jumpstart points about 50–75 km in the rear, through which the various elements of the mission would channel-in inside the Op zone.
> 
> An Impression of a routine large force exercise was given to the IAF AWACS and ground radars keenly monitoring the event from across the border. To give credibility to routine training/ operational flights, most of the PAF aircraft flew with their Identify Friend or Foe (IFF) transponders ON, which are routinely switched off during offensive missions.
> In between — the cat and mouse play between the IAF and the PAF continued, with the regulation runs towards the International border to draw out on-station combat air patrols (CAPs) on either side.
> 
> Meanwhile, the Indian Air Force was taking no chances, with all combat aircraft mobilised to their wartime locations by the evening of 26 Feb. Throughout the intervening night of 26/27 Feb, the IAF was on maximum alert expecting the PAF’s counter-attack — wherein Indian AEW&C aircraft scanned Pakistani skies for any sign of protracted activity towards India — with all vital zones on the western border being well covered by on-station Combat air Patrols (CAP), flying harmonised defensive patterns.
> 
> On the other side, the PAF AEW&C’s and ELINT aircraft especially focussed their attention on the area north of Pathankot for radar & electronic emissions of Indian combat jets on CAP missions in Jammu & Kashmir to zero their location and types.
> 
> The PAF deduced the following basis the surveillance and existing Air Intelligence on the IAF-
> 
> 1. There was at least one Indian Air Force 4th Gen aircraft Defensive Counter Air (DCA) CAP for defence of the Kashmir valley airborne 24×7.
> 2. The IAF’s Su-30MKI and Mirage-2000I/TIs were identified to be part of this DCA mission operating in the Kashmir bowl.
> 3. There was a Squadron of MiG-21 Bison aircraft permanently based at Srinagar AFB, mounting Operational Readiness Platforms (ORP) at Srinagar and Awantipore AFBs. These also flew an occasional DCA CAP mission in support of the Su-30MKI/Mirage-2000I/TIs. However, the PAF did not consider the Mig-21 Bison as a worthwhile threat to the planned attack.
> The PAF’s counterstroke would consist of 30–40 combat aircraft on 27 Feb morning, which would initially give an impression of routine flying, converting into attack vectors — specifically exploiting the gaps around the ‘change over times’ of the IAF DCA air patrols over their holding zones in the Kashmir valley.
> This would ensure that the IAF CAPs would not have adequate endurance to take on the PAF threat.
> 
> The PAF was ready to deliver the coup de grace, with 27 February 2019 to go down as the ‘surprise’ day in the history of the Pakistan Air Force, where yet again its material and martial dominance would be well established over the Indian Air Force. The PAF had the numerical superiority, technology ascendency and the will to attack at the time and place of its choosing. And the best fighter pilots from Pakistan would be involved towards execution of the highly bold Op Swift Retort.
> 
> As has been a case time immemorial, the Pakistan Air Force did not cater to the resolute resolve and superlative training levels of the Indian Air Force fighter pilots. But then, this is another story, a story which did not end very well for the ambitious goals set by the PAF for Operation Swift Retort.



It's more like copied all the stuff from forum along with Indian posters rants and make it OSINT. Hue and cry.

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## mingle

The Eagle said:


> It's more like copied all the stuff from forum along with Indian posters rants and make it OSINT. Hue and cry.


Indians lied so much so much nobody believe on them anymore to save IAF from embarrassment they become laughing stock by themselves


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## loanranger

Can anyone enlighten me as to the PAF's ROE's(Rules of Engagement) during Op Swift Retort that allowed us to engage and take down only two of possible nine targets.
What a tragedy. However indians had to follow ROEs too. Dont know if they played fair too or were they even in a position to contemplate chivalry?


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## Flight of falcon

His name should be smear jotshi...... I believe jotshi is same as astrologer


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## Safriz

loanranger said:


> Can anyone enlighten me as to the PAF's ROE's(Rules of Engagement) during Op Swift Retort that allowed us to engage and take down only two of possible nine targets.
> What a tragedy. However indians had to follow ROEs too. Dont know if they played fair too or were they even in a position to contemplate chivalry?


To display capability of striking Indian targets without hitting them.


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## The Eagle

mingle said:


> Indians lied so much so much nobody believe on them anymore to save IAF from embarrassment they become laughing stock by themselves



true that but on the same time, we must not forget that whatever we or the emotional lot having father, brother etc in Uniform talk about or share details to bag a title of insider or know it all, is read & noted by adversary with so much attention. The above so-called OSINT speaks volume and they are good with driving forces with the same.


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## nomi007

Whole burden is on F-16s
we have to add Euro typhoon to counter Rafale threat


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## Trailer23




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## Rafi

India tried to control the escalation ladder, but the 27th proved to the veggies, that it was for PAF. By locking onto and then hitting on the side of their assets, with careful targeting of key personnel.

We basically dared them to retaliate and they stood done.

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## Syed1.

I hope a few years down the line and if the pocket permits we should develop an indigenous "Super Thunder" which basically takes the Thunder design and enlarges the airframe and put a more powerful engine in it, so that we have a 4.5 gen heavy fighter to complement Azm.

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## Haris Ali2140

So after running out of every excuse,Indians are demanding that PAF must show serial numbers os MiG-21

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1173117382765641728

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## ziaulislam

Syed1. said:


> I hope a few years down the line and if the pocket permits we should develop an indigenous "Super Thunder" which basically takes the Thunder design and enlarges the airframe and put a more powerful engine in it, so that we have a 4.5 gen heavy fighter to complement Azm.


mirage 4000
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Mirage_4000

Was same concept with 2000

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## Syed1.

ziaulislam said:


> mirage 4000
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Mirage_4000
> 
> Was same concept with 2000


Thanks for sharing, I had no idea about this.... I see the Mirage 4000 had a massive influence on the design of the Rafale.


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## ziaulislam

Syed1. said:


> Thanks for sharing, I had no idea about this.... I see the Mirage 4000 had a massive influence on the design of the Rafale.


Mirage 4000 was a concept to use mirage2000 as base for large plateform
It was essentially just enlarge mirage2000 with two engines

Same thing can be done with thunder if PAF wants to ..other wise a foreign offshelf might be cheaper


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## NA71

Haris Ali2140 said:


> So after running out of every excuse,Indians are demanding that PAF must show serial numbers os MiG-21
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1173117382765641728


Vishu bhai say bolo just check your inventory of R-73...obviously the missing serial numbers will be the answer to his request

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## YeBeWarned

Rafi said:


> India tried to control the escalation ladder, but the 27th proved to the veggies, that it was for PAF. By locking onto and then hitting on the side of their assets, with careful targeting of key personnel.
> 
> We basically dared them to retaliate and they stood done.



if a strike on Balakot results on 300 Pakistani's dead, than Bipin won't see the night on 27th Feb 2019 ..Poor guy , his ears must still be ringing from the bombs hahah

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## Syed1.

ziaulislam said:


> Mirage 4000 was a concept to use mirage2000 as base for large plateform
> It was essentially just enlarge mirage2000 with two engines
> 
> Same thing can be done with thunder if PAF wants to ..other wise a foreign offshelf might be cheaper




Building own hardware always has more upfront cost than buying off-the-shelf solution but long term benefits are innumerable, as the PAF is finding out with the difficulty in acquiring more F-16s but the ease with which more Thunders are being pumped out. 

I hope in the next decade the economy ramps up which gives more fiscal space to massively invest in indigenous fighter planes and other military hardware. This will develop our country's industrial base as well.


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## Quwa

ziaulislam said:


> Mirage 4000 was a concept to use mirage2000 as base for large plateform
> It was essentially just enlarge mirage2000 with two engines
> 
> Same thing can be done with thunder if PAF wants to ..other wise a foreign offshelf might be cheaper


hmm...the PAF is trying to develop a twin engine fighter via Project Azm.


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## ziaulislam

Quwa said:


> hmm...the PAF is trying to develop a twin engine fighter via Project Azm.



Correct
but we were wondering if PAF wants a heavy multirole like flankers, is this a viable alternative especially if it plans to get >75-100.

There will be at least engine commonelty and some other parts

It might be more costlier but will be inhouse solution 

But looking at india a J31 like fighter will be a better option


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## khanasifm

Some folks have too much free time at hand


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## fatman17

In September issue of AFM

EXERCISE REPORT: Anatolian Eagle 2019
One of Europe’s largest air exercises took place in June after a two-year hiatus. Anatolian Eagle 2019 involved participation from Italy, Jordan, Pakistan, Qatar, the US and NATO.

EXERCISE REPORT: Anatolian Phoenix 2019
Ahead of this year’s Anatolian Eagle, Konya air base in southern Turkey played host to another exercise, dedicated to combat search and rescue.

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## Apocalypse

CASA CN-235 into the setting sun.

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## The Eagle

Haris Ali2140 said:


> So after running out of every excuse,Indians are demanding that PAF must show serial numbers os MiG-21
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1173117382765641728



Please avoid posting the usual rants & troll posts as such. Serial number is given by the one at receiving end like IAF that has nothing to showcase except that piece of AMRAAM which surely hit its mark. PAF displayed all four missiles and invited any independent analyst to inspect so IAF can go to anywhere to claim or prove otherwise. These online Arm Chair Generals & self style military come propaganda specialists does not worth any time or explanation at all.

Regards,

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## Kompromat

New acquisition being considered.

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## Haris Ali2140

Horus said:


> New acquisition being considered.


Does it has to do anything with Khafee leaks???


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## Dreamer.

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Does it has to do anything with Khafee leaks???


OH Please!!! Horus's post is the diametric opposite of _that_.

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## MIRauf

It's a push for sale of F-16s, BB tried it also back in 1990s "We like F-16s, would like to buy them, we have M2K on offer but we prefer your F-16s. ) President Clinton didn't flinch and Mr. 10% doomed the M2K. I do wish PAF the success of more F-16s, great plane for PAF and $ of revenue for US instead of some other country.

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## denel

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Does it has to do anything with Khafee leaks???


oh god no!!!! not that those leaks again

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## mingle

Horus said:


> New acquisition being considered.


From Russia or Europe or US



MIRauf said:


> It's a push for sale of F-16s, BB tried it also back in 1990s "We like F-16s, would like to buy them, we have M2K on offer but we prefer your F-16s. ) President Clinton didn't flinch and Mr. 10% doomed the M2K. I do wish PAF the success of more F-16s, great plane for PAF and $ of revenue for US instead of some other country.


Logically it's only F16s makes sence to me great plane we know her inside out Taiwan got 66 New blk72 8 billions along 5 billion V kits for 144 current fleet if Pak goes half about 6 billions flat gona work for US 34 new along V Kitts for current fleet


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## Nasr

mingle said:


> From Russia or Europe or US
> 
> 
> Logically it's only F16s makes sence to me great plane we know her inside out Taiwan got 66 New blk72 8 billions along 5 billion V kits for 144 current fleet if Pak goes half about 6 billions flat gona work for US 34 new along V Kitts for current fleet



And what makes you think that America would even consider selling Pakistan the new Block-72s?


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## mingle

Nasr said:


> And what makes you think that America would even consider selling Pakistan the new Block-72s?


What make u think why not????


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## Rafi

J10 C and J16 are the only possible options with stealth drones and 5th gen on after.

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## Ultima Thule

Rafi said:


> J10 C and J16 are the only possible options with stealth drones and 5th gen on after.


J-10C , J-16  @Rafi

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## Rafi

pakistanipower said:


> J-10C , J-16  @Rafi



The heart wants what it wants, so a little tribute greases the turning of the wheel.

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## mingle

Rafi said:


> The heart wants what it wants, so a little tribute greases the turning of the wheel.


Let's see another chinese jettt ??


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## Ultima Thule

Rafi said:


> The heart wants what it wants, so a little tribute greases the turning of the wheel.



J-10C is best option for PAF but J-16 is based on Su-30 MKK design which is Russian INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY hence we will not able to buy J-16 from China @Rafi


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## Rafi

pakistanipower said:


> J-10C is best option for PAF but J-16 is based on Su-30 MKK design which is Russian INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY hence we will not able to buy J-16 from China



The heart wants what it wants, so a little tribute greases the turning of the wheel, you ask a girl out, she turn you down, that don't change the fact that she hot.

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## Ultima Thule

Rafi said:


> The heart wants what it wants, so a little tribute greases the turning of the wheel, you ask a girl out, she turn you down, that don't change the fact that she hot.


what trying to say or are you trolling @Rafi

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## Rafi

pakistanipower said:


> what trying to say or are you trolling @Rafi



I'm trying to tell you, that we are fascinated by it, and would like to have it, but because of reasons beyond our control we may not get it.

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## Fieldmarshal

The thing with Pak- China relationship is such that if Pak wants somthing China will not refuse. Now how do u expect to get somthing when u dont even ask.
If Russia is a concern than u can always lease the equipment.

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## jupiter2007

pakistanipower said:


> J-10C is best option for PAF but J-16 is based on Su-30 MKK design which is Russian INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY hence we will not able to buy J-16 from China @Rafi



J-11 was based on Russian design (Copy of SU-27. J -16 is designed from J-11BS, so it not a copy of SU-27. If Chinese can make it slightly smaller, it will be perfect for Pakistan.


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## Ultima Thule

jupiter2007 said:


> J-11 was based on Russian design (Copy of SU-27. J -16 is designed from J-11BS, so it not a copy of SU-27. If Chinese can make it slightly smaller, it will be perfect for Pakistan.


Look my above post that you quoted i am saying its based on Su-30 MKK not Su-27 you like it or not design is still Russian intellectual property whether it is based on su27 or j11BS,and tell me j-11BS based on what design @jupiter2007


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## jupiter2007

pakistanipower said:


> Look my above post that you quoted i am saying its based on Su-30 MKK not Su-27 you like it or not design is still Russian intellectual property whether it is based on su27 or j11BS,and tell me j-11BS based on what design @jupiter2007



Whatever the case maybe. If Chinese want, they can redesign something from original design but they won’t because they are working on J-31 and J-20.
I think J-12 and J-14 got cancelled.


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## Ultima Thule

jupiter2007 said:


> Whatever the case maybe. If Chinese want, they can redesign something from original design but they won’t because they are working on J-31 and J-20.
> I think J-12 and J-14 got cancelled.


Man you don't understand when Chinese were acquiring Su-27/Su-30 from Russia in this deal Russian had put the claws that they won't sell Su-27/30 and its versions to third party because Russians knows that Chinese eventually copy/paste Su-27/30,because their previous experience @jupiter2007


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## araz

Fieldmarshal said:


> The thing with Pak- China relationship is such that if Pak wants somthing China will not refuse. Now how do u expect to get somthing when u dont even ask.
> If Russia is a concern than u can always lease the equipment.


Iwould disagree with that. China is a sovereign nation with its own interests. They do not always ally with Paklands. So that is not true.
A


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## Nasr

mingle said:


> What make u think why not????



The chicken-hawk sitting in as Sec-Def and the enemy's lobbying in Washington.


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## Path-Finder

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/th...rojects-concepts-etc.21179/page-3#post-231277

We don't seem to have a thread on PGM's employed by PAF or do we? 100 points for someone who gets the pics of raptor 3 from the link site, you have to register


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## HRK

Path-Finder said:


> the pics of raptor 3 from the link site

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## Path-Finder

HRK said:


> View attachment 580158
> View attachment 580159
> View attachment 580160
> View attachment 580161
> View attachment 580162

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## Yasser76

Contract awards for Pakistan Link 16 updates 

https://www.defense.gov/Newsroom/Contracts/Contract/Article/1956513/

Contract awards for Pakistan PW F-100 updates

https://www.defense.gov/Newsroom/Contracts/Contract/Article/1911093/

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## mingle

Yasser76 said:


> Contract awards for Pakistan Link 16 updates
> 
> https://www.defense.gov/Newsroom/Contracts/Contract/Article/1956513/
> 
> Contract awards for Pakistan PW F-100 updates
> 
> https://www.defense.gov/Newsroom/Contracts/Contract/Article/1911093/


Old news I believe but Guess work here is made in China now for new jetts.


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## Readerdefence

HRK said:


> View attachment 580158
> View attachment 580159
> View attachment 580160
> View attachment 580161
> View attachment 580162


Hi HRK thx for the detailed info about this SOM is you provide about its speed coz I think if I’m not wrong with this kind of stand off range you need something very fast & agile 
Your input will be appreciated thx


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## Haris Ali2140

HRK said:


> View attachment 580158
> View attachment 580159
> View attachment 580160
> View attachment 580161
> View attachment 580162


Is there any procurement chances of this beast???


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## HRK

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Is there any procurement chances of this beast???


no idea ....



Readerdefence said:


> Hi HRK thx for the detailed info about this SOM is you provide about its speed coz I think if I’m not wrong with this kind of stand off range you need something very fast & agile
> Your input will be appreciated thx


If you are enquiring about its speed after launch than I believe it could be in the range of 0.6-0.9 mach ....


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## Haris Ali2140

HRK said:


> no idea ....


They will make Indians think twice before pressing Brahmos' button.

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## Quwa

Path-Finder said:


> https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/th...rojects-concepts-etc.21179/page-3#post-231277
> 
> We don't seem to have a thread on PGM's employed by PAF or do we? 100 points for someone who gets the pics of raptor 3 from the link site, you have to register


Unfortunate Pakistan didn't take advantage of all of these projects with South Africa. @denel But the CSIR turbojet projects might have been triggered by Pakistan (the OP on that forum said a "foreign requirement" restarted those programs), and in the time since then, Pakistan unveiled 4 or 5 new cruise missile models. Clearly, Pakistan has an incentive for ITAR-free turbojets.

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## Path-Finder

Quwa said:


> Unfortunate Pakistan didn't take advantage of all of these projects with South Africa. @denel











Quwa said:


> Unfortunate Pakistan didn't take advantage of all of these projects with South Africa. @denel But the CSIR turbojet projects might have been triggered by Pakistan (the OP on that forum said a "foreign requirement" restarted those programs), and in the time since then, Pakistan unveiled 4 or 5 new cruise missile models. Clearly, Pakistan has an incentive for ITAR-free turbojets.


Didn't Pakistan get some small turbojets/fans from the Czechs?

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## denel

Quwa said:


> Unfortunate Pakistan didn't take advantage of all of these projects with South Africa. @denel But the CSIR turbojet projects might have been triggered by Pakistan (the OP on that forum said a "foreign requirement" restarted those programs), and in the time since then, Pakistan unveiled 4 or 5 new cruise missile models. Clearly, Pakistan has an incentive for ITAR-free turbojets.


Absolutely, right now there is a lot of works in pipeline from KSA/UAE to support their 'indigenous' efforts e.g. saqar UAV which is nothing more than Bateleur UAV; I would not be surprised if that was not the case for Pak.

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## Path-Finder

denel said:


> Absolutely, right now there is a lot of works in pipeline from KSA/UAE to support their 'indigenous' efforts e.g. saqar UAV which is nothing more than Bateleur UAV; I would not be surprised if that was not the case for Pak.







This is the first use of H2 to take out a bridge as per this post!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kaiserbill I think the first sentence or two in my post #89 answers your question.

I was not going to post these as they are both produced weapons, however perhaps particularly for foreign visitors, they might find the progression of the Raptor PGM interesting (in light of my Raptor III pics in post #82 above). As mentioned in the brochures it has been integrated onto the Mirage III, V, Cheetah and F1. Then also on the Sukhoi SU-24 (which I suspect is for Algeria). Pakistan is fairly open about them having it, see one of their squadron's paintings below clearly depicting Raptor II being launched from one of their Mirages.

The weapon is slightly unusual in that the dropping aircraft can be different from the controlling aircraft if need be.

As per sa_bushwar's video post # 61, showing it being dropped in combat action against the Cuito bridge in Angola on 3 January 1988 (when it was then still known as the H-2). *I later met someone who was on the H-2 program at the time, he said that they we very upset with the military for wrenching the H-2 out of their hands for use against the Cuito bridge when it was still very much an uncompleted prototype. This explains some of the misses they had before the near (but successful) hit they had depicted in sa_bushwar's video.* *A little bit of translation from the video for those who don't understand Afrikaans - they are talking about a (military) vehicle that happens to be on the bridge as the H-2 is being guided in (this could be direct feedback from a South African Special Forces operator on the ground?), at the last moment one of them says that the Bomb is going in slightly to to left of the bridge into the water. It did enough damage though, as the Russians, Cubans and Fapla could only use it for walking traffic and not for their tanks/IFV/trucks - which is exactly why we were targeting the bridge in the first place.

Very nice post BTW sa_bushwar - thanks!

BTW the reason that they had initially for many years been so cagey about H-2/Raptor, was that it was apparently also very much part of our then nuclear weapons program.*

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/th...rojects-concepts-etc.21179/page-3#post-231735

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## denel

Path-Finder said:


> This is the first use of H2 to take out a bridge as per this post!
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Kaiserbill I think the first sentence or two in my post #89 answers your question.
> 
> I was not going to post these as they are both produced weapons, however perhaps particularly for foreign visitors, they might find the progression of the Raptor PGM interesting (in light of my Raptor III pics in post #82 above). As mentioned in the brochures it has been integrated onto the Mirage III, V, Cheetah and F1. Then also on the Sukhoi SU-24 (which I suspect is for Algeria). Pakistan is fairly open about them having it, see one of their squadron's paintings below clearly depicting Raptor II being launched from one of their Mirages.
> 
> The weapon is slightly unusual in that the dropping aircraft can be different from the controlling aircraft if need be.
> 
> As per sa_bushwar's video post # 61, showing it being dropped in combat action against the Cuito bridge in Angola on 3 January 1988 (when it was then still known as the H-2). *I later met someone who was on the H-2 program at the time, he said that they we very upset with the military for wrenching the H-2 out of their hands for use against the Cuito bridge when it was still very much an uncompleted prototype. This explains some of the misses they had before the near (but successful) hit they had depicted in sa_bushwar's video.* *A little bit of translation from the video for those who don't understand Afrikaans - they are talking about a (military) vehicle that happens to be on the bridge as the H-2 is being guided in (this could be direct feedback from a South African Special Forces operator on the ground?), at the last moment one of them says that the Bomb is going in slightly to to left of the bridge into the water. It did enough damage though, as the Russians, Cubans and Fapla could only use it for walking traffic and not for their tanks/IFV/trucks - which is exactly why we were targeting the bridge in the first place.
> 
> Very nice post BTW sa_bushwar - thanks!
> 
> BTW the reason that they had initially for many years been so cagey about H-2/Raptor, was that it was apparently also very much part of our then nuclear weapons program.*
> 
> https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/th...rojects-concepts-etc.21179/page-3#post-231735


cuito was a major operation; everything under the sink was thrown at the Cubans.

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## Path-Finder

denel said:


> cuito was a major operation; everything under the sink was thrown at the Cubans.


Is this bridge in Angola?

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## denel

Path-Finder said:


> Is this bridge in Angola?


yes.

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## Readerdefence

HRK said:


> no idea ....
> 
> 
> If you are enquiring about its speed after launch than I believe it could be in the range of 0.6-0.9 mach ....


Hi for the reply my friend what’s your intake about this much speed for something with 300km stand off will it hit the target while not been intercepted before reaching to the destination 
Thx for your input


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## denel

Path-Finder said:


> Is this bridge in Angola?


what surprises me is the similarity between Raad and Mupsow. I wontbe surprised if there was cross pollination like Raptor.

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## HRK

Readerdefence said:


> Hi for the reply my friend what’s your intake about this much speed for something with 300km stand off will it hit the target while not been intercepted before reaching to the destination
> Thx for your input


in the presence of air defence assets these SOW are launch with proper mission planing .... so that chances of mission success remain high .... 

End of the story.... its a cat and mouse game ....

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## Quwa

denel said:


> Absolutely, right now there is a lot of works in pipeline from KSA/UAE to support their 'indigenous' efforts e.g. saqar UAV which is nothing more than Bateleur UAV; I would not be surprised if that was not the case for Pak.


With the PAF signalling ITAR-free, localized turnkey systems under Project Azm, then extracting SA R&D in difficult areas under the table is plausible. It'd be the only logical answer to the silence around SA-Pakistan cooperation. So, in a way, Darter, Marlin, and Umbani tech could make its way (with proceeds going to SA R&D directly).

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## denel

Quwa said:


> With the PAF signalling ITAR-free, localized turnkey systems under Project Azm, then extracting SA R&D in difficult areas under the table is plausible. It'd be the only logical answer to the silence around SA-Pakistan cooperation. So, in a way, Darter, Marlin, and Umbani tech could make its way (with proceeds going to SA R&D directly).


Indeed, i do hope involvement with M3/5 consolidation to a new upgraded standardised system.

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## jupiter2007

pakistanipower said:


> Man you don't understand when Chinese were acquiring Su-27/Su-30 from Russia in this deal Russian had put the claws that they won't sell Su-27/30 and its versions to third party because Russians knows that Chinese eventually copy/paste Su-27/30,because their previous experience @jupiter2007










pakistanipower said:


> Man you don't understand when Chinese were acquiring Su-27/Su-30 from Russia in this deal Russian had put the claws that they won't sell Su-27/30 and its versions to third party because Russians knows that Chinese eventually copy/paste Su-27/30,because their previous experience @jupiter2007




*J-14 project.*

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## Ultima Thule

jupiter2007 said:


> *J-14 project.*
> View attachment 580236


bro these were canceled when J-20 project became successful, and these projects are just rumors and nothing more @jupiter2007



jupiter2007 said:


> *J-14 project.*
> View attachment 580236


and its a early depiction of J-20 or projected version of J-10 named super-10 @jupiter2007


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## Falcon26

denel said:


> what surprises me is the similarity between Raad and Mupsow. I wontbe surprised if there was cross pollination like Raptor.



do you see a similarity between Denel Targos & the Turkish SOM


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## Path-Finder

Interesting PGM from SA, Does it remind you of something?


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## denel

Falcon26 said:


> do you see a similarity between Denel Targos & the Turkish SOM


no, there is differences. but for raad - it is like for like

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## Quwa

Falcon26 said:


> do you see a similarity between Denel Targos & the Turkish SOM


SOM is unique from most ALCMs in that it's smaller and lighter. I hope Pakistan develops a similar type of ALCM ('Ra'ad Lite') for use via JF-17s as long-range conventional SOWs.

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## Falcon26

Quwa said:


> SOM is unique from most ALCMs in that it's smaller and lighter. I hope Pakistan develops a similar type of ALCM ('Ra'ad Lite') for use via JF-17s as long-range conventional SOWs.



what’s wrong with simply getting the SOM off shelf?


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## Quwa

Falcon26 said:


> what’s wrong with simply getting the SOM off shelf?


We have a lot of the same kind of tech via Ra'ad, it's matter of making a smaller version. This way, we'd have a turnkey supply of these light ALCMs.

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## Dazzler

Path-Finder said:


> View attachment 580289
> 
> 
> Interesting PGM from SA, Does it remind you of something?


Spice lookalike.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Dazzler said:


> Spice lookalike.


It looks like the prototype of the Sajeel PGB they developed for the UAE.

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## air marshal

1st Indigenously overhauled JF-17 Thunder fighter rolls out in Pakistan

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## khanasifm

So mirage needs first overhaul at 1800 next one after another 2000 another one ... averaging about 2000 hours total life 8000 hours

Jf needs overhaul after ?? 1200 the next one another 1200 ? Or the cycle is tbd for now ?

Also the concept of overhaul is. different its inspections starting at 300 hours , 600, 900 and 1200 is major one ?

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## Ali_Baba

my understanding is that the total life of the JF17 is 4,000 hours. where did you get 8,000 from?

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## LKJ86

Ali_Baba said:


> my understanding is that the total life of the JF17 is 4,000 hours. where did you get 8,000 from?


The "total life" is an interesting concept.

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## khanasifm

Analysis conducted by a EU firm with paf concluded fuslage life for mirage 3/5 is 8000 hours and wing 2250 hours but can open up and totally rebuild wing which is what paf is doing 

Last Paf article in Afm on mirages 50 year

Jf-17 initial life is 4000 but with time extension like f-16 will extend it

F-7 total life is 26-2800 hours now getting slep

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## fatman17

PAF overhauls JF-17 at local aircraft facility
By news desk
Sep.26,2019

Ceremony to mark achievement held at Kamra's Aircraft Rebuild Factory.

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## fatman17

fatman17 said:


> PAF overhauls JF-17 at local aircraft facility
> By news desk
> Sep.26,2019
> 
> Ceremony to mark achievement held at Kamra's Aircraft Rebuild Factory.
> View attachment 581373


4 JF17s have been overhauled, 2 in China, 2 at Kamra.

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## khanasifm

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...r-to-air-missile-really-the-best-in-the-world

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## GriffinsRule

fatman17 said:


> PAF overhauls JF-17 at local aircraft facility
> By news desk
> Sep.26,2019
> 
> Ceremony to mark achievement held at Kamra's Aircraft Rebuild Factory.
> View attachment 581373


Could not see any serial numbers of the jets in the pics or the video -_-


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## Code_Geass

GriffinsRule said:


> Could not see any serial numbers of the jets in the pics or the video -_-


one with Pakistan flag is 07-103 as per alan warnes

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## fatman17

Code_Geass said:


> one with Pakistan flag is 07-103 as per alan warnes


One of the earliest batch of 7 aircraft

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## Code_Geass

fatman17 said:


> One of the earliest batch of 7 aircraft


is there any minor change in color or is just feel that way

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## Windjammer



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## mingle

Windjammer said:


>


Who is that Gentleman???


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## Windjammer

mingle said:


> Who is that Gentleman???


Must be an exchange pilot looks American.

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## mingle

Windjammer said:


> Must be an exchange pilot looks American.


Thats what I think Thanks @Windjammer


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## Raider 21

Windjammer said:


> Must be an exchange pilot looks American.


No exchange pilots from USAF on F-6. In this case that's a Navy Tomcat driver who flew an orientation sortie.

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## Haris Ali2140

@Basel No I don't have any knowledge about this matter at all. I am only stating my observation.

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## ARMalik

Unsubstantiated news of PAF wanting to buy SU-35 floating around. It would be very interesting if true.


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## Talon

ARMalik said:


> Unsubstantiated news of PAF wanting to buy SU-35 floating around. It would be very interesting if true.


Cant afford to buy them and cant afford to maintain the fleet.

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## Viper27

Any news about the C-130 that was recently involved in an accident during landing? Written of or being repaired?


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## ARMalik

Hodor said:


> Cant afford to buy them and cant afford to maintain the fleet.



Apparently, "_funds are not a problem"_. Again Unsubstantiated news.


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## Talon

Viper27 said:


> Any news about the C-130 that was recently involved in an accident during landing? Written of or being repaired?


Written off long time ago



ARMalik said:


> Apparently, "_funds are not a problem"_. Again Unsubstantiated news.


Funds are always the problem.Even if we manage to buy them we cant afford to fly and maintain them.We cant even afford to fly reheat trainers.

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## The Eagle

Kindly spare this place from unsubstantiated news & social media sensational rumors.

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## Windjammer

Knuckles said:


> No exchange pilots from USAF on F-6. In this case that's a Navy Tomcat driver who flew an orientation sortie.



Dude all i said was that he may be an exchange pilot, never even mentioned the F-6.
An RAF visitor went up in an F-7 for a familiarization flight, doesn't mean that he was attached to an F-7 unit.


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## Raider 21

Windjammer said:


> Dude all i said was that he may be an exchange pilot, never even mentioned the F-6.
> An RAF visitor went up in an F-7 for a familiarization flight, doesn't mean that he was attached to an F-7 unit.


Dude look up what an exchange pilot is.

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## Windjammer

Knuckles said:


> Dude look up what an exchange pilot is.


I know exactly what it means dear,however this is what you implied.....No exchange pilots from USAF *on F-6.*


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## Raider 21

Windjammer said:


> I know exactly what it means dear,however this is what you implied.....No exchange pilots from USAF *on F-6.*


Then I'll add a little bit more. No exchange pilots from USA with PAF. Hope that clears the confusion. 

Cheers!!!

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## fatman17

Air Platforms
*PAC Kamra rolls out its first locally overhauled JF-17 Thunder aircraft*
*Alan Warnes, Prague* - Jane's Defence Weekly
03 October 2019



The first JF-17 Thunder multirole combat aircraft overhauled in Pakistan was rolled out during a ceremony held on 26 September at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) Kamra. The move comes nearly 10 years after the first JF-17, which was jointly developed by China and Pakistan, rolled off the production line there.

The Pakistan Air Force (PAF's) Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan, said during the ceremony: "We are living in a technology-intensive world, where self-reliance and indigenisation are key to effectively addressing modern challenges. [The] PAF has been relentlessly pursuing these goals and has now achieved this remarkable capability".

Work on the JF-17 maintenance repair and overhaul (MRO) project has been under way since 2017. The chief engineer of JF-17 MRO, a wing commander who did not want to be named, had told _Jane's_ in April, "We have been overhauling Chinese aircraft for the past few decades, so we took the initiative and developed our own JF-17 overhaul facility here in the Aircraft Repair Factory [ARF]."

"We developed the overhaul package, but to have it validated by the Chinese we sent two, effectively pattern aircraft to Changsha, in China during 2017," he added. Changsha is the 5712 Aircraft Industry Co., which operates under state-owned Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC).

Around the same time, the ARF started working on two JF-17s, in tandem with the two aircraft in China, with the wing commander stressing that "we carried out all the work here ourselves using our own procedures".

The two jets overhauled in China were back at PAC Kamra by April, when the ARF was working on a third aircraft. There are plans for five more aircraft to be overhauled at the factory in 2019, and a new hangar currently under construction will open next year, allowing 20 aircraft to be overhauled in 2020.




The PAC in Kamra rolled out the first overhauled JF-17 aircraft in a ceremony held on 26 September. (Pakistan Air Force)

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## litman

did they just overhaul the older jet or upgraded it to block 2 standards as well?

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## Windjammer

*
This was the time when PAF F-16s repeatedly beat the Italian Typhoons during an exercise.*

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## GriffinsRule

Windjammer said:


> *This was the time when PAF F-16s repeatedly beat the Italian Typhoons during an exercise.*
> 
> View attachment 582559


What were the ROEs involved?


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## Windjammer

GriffinsRule said:


> What were the ROEs involved?


PAF seldom boasts or gives out such details, the news was actually reported by Alan Warnes.

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## GriffinsRule

Windjammer said:


> PAF seldom boasts or gives out such details, the news was actually reported by Alan Warnes.


Yes I have read that issue and clearly a proud feeling =). The reason I was asking is so that new readers don't start thinking we are invincible somehow against IAF. Those non-MLU Block 15s of the time would have been taken out at BVR ranges in a realistic scenario by the Typhoons using AIM-120. 
In the pre-BVR era PAF's focus had been WVR combat and that is what they extensively trained for and were thus very good at. I believe you get better by playing/training against a better opponent. Italian Air Force probably learned some good lessons and valuable takeaways from that exercise in regards to dogfights. I am sure PAF learned something as well outside of WVR engagements. Win-win for everyone involved.


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## Raider 21

GriffinsRule said:


> Yes I have read that issue and clearly a proud feeling =). The reason I was asking is so that new readers don't start thinking we are invincible somehow against IAF. Those non-MLU Block 15s of the time would have been taken out at BVR ranges in a realistic scenario by the Typhoons using AIM-120.
> In the pre-BVR era PAF's focus had been WVR combat and that is what they extensively trained for and were thus very good at. I believe you get better by playing/training against a better opponent. Italian Air Force probably learned some good lessons and valuable takeaways from that exercise in regards to dogfights. I am sure PAF learned something as well outside of WVR engagements. Win-win for everyone involved.


It was a win-win for both. PAF learned a lot especially with the BVR phase, hence the fruition of that was seen on Feb 27th, 2019. Exercises are always mutually beneficial.


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## alee92nawaz

GriffinsRule said:


> Yes I have read that issue and clearly a proud feeling =). The reason I was asking is so that new readers don't start thinking we are invincible somehow against IAF. Those non-MLU Block 15s of the time would have been taken out at BVR ranges in a realistic scenario by the Typhoons using AIM-120.
> In the pre-BVR era PAF's focus had been WVR combat and that is what they extensively trained for and were thus very good at. I believe you get better by playing/training against a better opponent. Italian Air Force probably learned some good lessons and valuable takeaways from that exercise in regards to dogfights. I am sure PAF learned something as well outside of WVR engagements. Win-win for everyone involved.


Feb 27th was a BVR shootout. What about wvr engagement of F-16s and JF-17s against indian migs mirages and sukhois. How will that pan out? Any thoughts?


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## loanranger

alee92nawaz said:


> Feb 27th was a BVR shootout. What about wvr engagement of F-16s and JF-17s against indian migs mirages and sukhois. How will that pan out? Any thoughts?


It wont be pretty if a JF 17 gets in wvr with a skilled Su30 pilot.

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## Viper27

loanranger said:


> It wont be pretty if a JF 17 gets in wvr with a skilled Su30 pilot.



JF-17 is more than capable of taking out a Sukhoi in both WVR and BVR modes.


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## truthseeker2010

alee92nawaz said:


> Feb 27th was a BVR shootout. What about wvr engagement of F-16s and JF-17s against indian migs mirages and sukhois. How will that pan out? Any thoughts?





loanranger said:


> It wont be pretty if a JF 17 gets in wvr with a skilled Su30 pilot.



In WVR PAF will always have a field day against IAF, because PAF have came out on top with USAF, RAF, TUAF...... Dogfights has been drilled into every paf pilot like others said in pre-bvr era paf had trained extensively for that. 

You might be worried about Cobra manoeuvre of MKI, rest assure its good for airshows but in combat it has limitations and experienced jockey will not risk its plane on fancy things..........

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## alee92nawaz

truthseeker2010 said:


> In WVR PAF will always have a field day against IAF, because PAF have came out on top with USAF, RAF, TUAF...... Dogfights has been drilled into every paf pilot like others said in pre-bvr era paf had trained extensively for that.
> 
> You might be worried about Cobra manoeuvre of MKI, rest assure its good for airshows but in combat it has limitations and experienced jockey will not risk its plane on fancy things..........


I am definitely not worried about Cobra maneuver. Needed more details than that thank.

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## truthseeker2010

alee92nawaz said:


> I am definitely not worried about Cobra maneuver. Needed more details than that thank.



Than there is nothing special about MKI, the RCS is its biggest weakness.

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## TsAr

alee92nawaz said:


> Feb 27th was a BVR shootout. What about wvr engagement of F-16s and JF-17s against indian migs mirages and sukhois. How will that pan out? Any thoughts?


One can only speculate, there is no correct answer....

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## araz

TsAr said:


> One can only speculate, there is no correct answer....


I think the story is very much out along with the armaments used so don't know what other confirmation is required.
Regards
A


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## fatman17

litman said:


> did they just overhaul the older jet or upgraded it to block 2 standards as well?


Common sense would suggest that the overhaul included the upgrade.


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## fatman17

The latest rumor (March 2019) claimed that PL-15 has been cleared for export as PL-15E.

- Last Updated 10/6/19


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## hassan1



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## fatman17

PAF air activity right now over DHA / Clifton sea view area


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## hassan1



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## cabatli_53

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1181105100267372544

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## Haris Ali2140

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1181106138659659777How serious is including J-10 in PAF calendar???


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## HRK

cabatli_53 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1181105100267372544


Time of evaluation of J-10A was 2003-2005


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## Keysersoze

hassan1 said:


> View attachment 582721
> View attachment 582722


Anyone know what aircraft these are? Image is a bit dated


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## Army research

Keysersoze said:


> Anyone know what aircraft these are? Image is a bit dated


Looks like blenheims

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## Bossman

Army research said:


> Looks like blenheims


Halifax

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## GriffinsRule

Keysersoze said:


> Anyone know what aircraft these are? Image is a bit dated



Handley-Page Halifax bomber.

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## hassan1



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## Kabotar

From 12:27


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## hassan1



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## hassan1



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## hassan1



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## hassan1



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## fatman17

Islamabad highlights defence aviation progress

11 OCTOBER, 2019 SOURCE: FLIGHTGLOBAL.COM BY: GREG WALDRON SINGAPORE

The Pakistan military’s yearbook for 2017-2018 disclosed that Islamabad has obtained at least 60 CM-400AKG air-to-surface missiles, and that work continues on a future fighter concept.

During the two years covered in the yearbook, which covers all arms of the military, Islamabad spent $100 million to obtain 60 Chinese-made CM-400AKGs, a supersonic anti-ship missile that can be deployed from the Chengdu/Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) JF-17 fighter.

A mock-up of the missile has frequently appeared on static display with Pakistan Air Force (PAF) JF-17s at Air Show China held every two years in Zhuhai.


A JF-17 at the Zhuhai static park in 2016 - note CM-400AKG on bottom left.

Greg Waldron

According to the manufacturer, the weapon uses “high [altitude] launching” to achieve “higher aircraft survivability.” AVIC has listed the 0.4m-diameter missile as having a range of between 54-130nm (100-240km), while carrying either a 150kg blast warhead or 200kg penetration warhead.

Meanwhile, work on Pakistan’s Next Generation Fighter Aircraft (NGFA) – named Project Azm – is proceeding, having completed its first cycle of conceptual design.

“The first configuration that was designed based on the challenging performance requirements of PAF will go through three more cycles within the conceptual design using higher fidelity analysis tools and codes,” it says.

The yearbook adds that a sixth airborne early warning & control (AEW&C) aircraft was added at a cost of $95 million. Pakistan defence analysis group Quwa suggests that this is the nation’s sixth Saab 2000 Erieye AEW&C asset.

Another acquisition involved a trio of Saab 2000 aircraft for $9.3 million. In addition to its Saab 2000 Erieyes, Islamabad also operates the type as multi-role platforms.

The two years covered in the yearbook also saw 12 Dassault Mirage III and V fighters overhauled at the PAC's Mirage Rebuild Factory. In addition, there was significant overhaul work on engine types such as the Pratt & Whitney F100 and Rolls-Royce T56, and the acquisition of five Klimov RD-93 for $22.4 million for the JF-17 fleet.

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## The Eagle

Trailer23 said:


> WoW, a picture of the PAF Ensign on my car was removed with...
> Reason: Post of no value
> 
> If I were to dissect half the posts done by most on PDF - half would be removed.
> Whatever to the Mod who removed it.



Respect the topic in hand and see the subject for better understanding. We have so much to cry but very less to offer on topic. So how about not to derail if there is nothing to add and keep it clean. 

All should be removed but then again, there are very few here having a working brain to understand that not every thread deserved to be polluted.


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## fatman17

Project Azm = Lead by #PAF to develop/build 5th generation aircraft, weapon systems and MALE attack drones.

° Project Hangor = Lead by Pakistan #Navy to acquire and build 8X Hangor Class Submarines.

° Project Haider = Lead by #Pakistan #Army to develop & build a 4th gen Tank.

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## fatman17

fatman17 said:


> Project Azm = Lead by #PAF to develop/build 5th generation aircraft, weapon systems and MALE attack drones.
> 
> ° Project Hangor = Lead by Pakistan #Navy to acquire and build 8X Hangor Class Submarines.
> 
> ° Project Haider = Lead by #Pakistan #Army to develop & build a 4th gen Tank.
> 
> View attachment 584026


Projects

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## Haris Ali2140

How many Air Bases does PAF has???
@Signalian


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## Benign Persona

The Eagle said:


> Respect the topic in hand and see the subject for better understanding. We have so much to cry but very less to offer on topic. So how about not to derail if there is nothing to add and keep it clean.
> 
> All should be removed but then again, there are very few here having a working brain to understand that not every thread deserved to be polluted.


Hello sir sorry for quoting you here but any info regarding F 16s Block 70s T&Cs? you said you will disclose them once you go through them. that thread is been closed so i am asking here.


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## The Eagle

Benign Persona said:


> Hello sir sorry for quoting you here but any info regarding F 16s Block 70s T&Cs? you said you will disclose them once you go through them. that thread is been closed so i am asking here.



I meant the possible T&Cs but nothing so far confirmed. The chatter has it that there might be some unpleasant T&Cs but only time will tell. Let it be confirmed first as I don't want to make a fuss out of nothing for the moment.

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## fatman17

Haris Ali2140 said:


> How many Air Bases does PAF has???
> @Signalian


Many

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## fatman17

Pakistan's indigenous fifth-generation fighter aircraft completes initial conceptual design phase

October 2019 news defense aviation aerospace air force industry
POSTED ON MONDAY, 14 OCTOBER 2019



Pakistan’s “Project Azm” whose centrepiece involves development of its own fifth generation fighter has accelerated, with first of the four “conceptual design phase” cycles being concluded.

Pakistans indigenous fifth generation fighter aircraft completes initial conceptual design phaseA non official concept art of FGFA (Picture source: globalsecurity.org)

The MoDP yearbook stated that the AvRID Secretariat has completed the first cycle of the conceptual design. It stated, “The first cycle of the conceptual design phase has been completed. The first configuration that was designed based on the challenging performance requirements of PAF will go through three more cycles within the conceptual design using higher fidelity analysis tools and codes.”

The Fifth-Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) is the highlight of the much-anticipated Project Azm, which outlines the PAF’s ambition for developing a state of the art aviation industrial base within the country. This aviation industrial complex will support the defense capabilities of the country, alongside fulfilling civilian and commercial aviation needs.

The PAF formally initiated Project Azm in July 2017 with the objective of developing an FGFA, a medium-altitude and long-endurance (MALE) unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV), new munitions, and other projects.

When it announced Project Azm, the then Chief of Air Staff (CAS), Air Chief Marshal (ACM) Sohail Aman, had stated that the design work of the MALE UAV was in its “final stages.” The 2017-2018 MoDP yearbook stated that the scheduled deadline for the MALE UAV’s maiden flight was June 2019.

In terms of the FGFA, in a recent interview with the PAF Chief of Air Staff (CAS), Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan, stated that he does not expect the FGFA to become operational for “another decade.”

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## fatman17

Air Platforms
PAC Kamra rolls out its first locally overhauled JF-17 Thunder aircraft
Alan Warnes, Prague - Jane's Defence Weekly
03 October 2019
Follow
RSS

The first JF-17 Thunder multirole combat aircraft overhauled in Pakistan was rolled out during a ceremony held on 26 September at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) Kamra. The move comes nearly 10 years after the first JF-17, which was jointly developed by China and Pakistan, rolled off the production line there.

The Pakistan Air Force (PAF's) Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan, said during the ceremony: "We are living in a technology-intensive world, where self-reliance and indigenisation are key to effectively addressing modern challenges. [The] PAF has been relentlessly pursuing these goals and has now achieved this remarkable capability".

Work on the JF-17 maintenance repair and overhaul (MRO) project has been under way since 2017. The chief engineer of JF-17 MRO, a wing commander who did not want to be named, had told Jane's in April, "We have been overhauling Chinese aircraft for the past few decades, so we took the initiative and developed our own JF-17 overhaul facility here in the Aircraft Repair Factory [ARF]."

"We developed the overhaul package, but to have it validated by the Chinese we sent two, effectively pattern aircraft to Changsha, in China during 2017," he added. Changsha is the 5712 Aircraft Industry Co., which operates under state-owned Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC).

Around the same time, the ARF started working on two JF-17s, in tandem with the two aircraft in China, with the wing commander stressing that "we carried out all the work here ourselves using our own procedures".

The two jets overhauled in China were back at PAC Kamra by April, when the ARF was working on a third aircraft. There are plans for five more aircraft to be overhauled at the factory in 2019, and a new hangar currently under construction will open next year, allowing 20 aircraft to be overhauled in 2020.The PAC in Kamra rolled out the first overhauled JF-17 aircraft in a ceremony held on 26 September. (Pakistan Air Force)


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## fatman17

October 18, 2016
3rd Shahadat Anniversary of Sir Wing Commander Fayyaz Athar, who embraced Shahadat in a Mirage crash while on a routine training Sortie during the Air drill High Marks 2016 near Karachi.

May Allah award the departed Soul the highest place in Jannat. Aamin
#PAF https://t.co/Nwo44jw2Qy

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## Roller321321

I've heard people talk about Abhinandan's messages with the Indian command before being shot down, are there any recordings of this?


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## TOPGUN

Roller321321 said:


> I've heard people talk about Abhinandan's messages with the Indian command before being shot down, are there any recordings of this?



kept in wraps due to extreme shame lolz.


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## loanranger

The perfect farewell. Lucky person.

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## khanasifm

https://dailythepatriot.com/checkma...or-indian-air-forces-future-weapon-platforms/

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## Syed_Adeel




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## fatman17

In addition SD-10A is being carried by JF-17 currently in service with PAF. Some specifications of SD-10: length 3,850mm, diameter 203mm, wing span 674mm, weight 180kg, max g-load 38g, max speed 4M, range 60-70km. Recently produced PL-12 was expected to feature an improved seeker with new digital processor and SINS. The improved PL-12 (PL-12A?) is thought to be comparable to American AIM-120C4. It was reported in November 2010 that PL-12 may feature an active/passive dual mode seeker in order to achieve greater ECCM capability and kill probability. Several improved versions were proposed by the 607 Institute, including PL-12B with improved guidance system, PL-12C with foldable tailfins for internal carriage by the 4th generation fighters (see PL-15) and PL-12D with a belly air inlet and a ramjet motor for long range attack similar to PL-21 (see below). During the 2012 Zhuhai Airshow a new anti-radiation air-to-ground variant was unveiled as LD-10 with a range of 60km, which could equip JF-17 as well.

- Last Updated 3/7/18

Is the PL10E in PAF inventory?

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## thunderkaka

Is the following true?

All Mirage III's and V's are planned to be replaced by JF-17s by 2030. In addition all F-7Ps/PGs are to be replaced by JF-17s by 2025.

*That's a total of 454 jets.*

Source: Wiki


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## MIRauf

thunderkaka said:


> Is the following true?
> 
> All Mirage III's and V's are planned to be replaced by JF-17s by 2030. In addition all F-7Ps/PGs are to be replaced by JF-17s by 2025.
> 
> *That's a total of 454 jets.*
> 
> Source: Wiki



200+, not 454.

Thus PAF wants new and used F-16s to replace at least 50 odd out of 200+. There was an post few years back where ACM outlined why PAF wanted US to give PAF option for used F-16s to replace some of the older jets.

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## mingle

MIRauf said:


> 200+, not 454.
> 
> Thus PAF wants new and used F-16s to replace at least 50 odd out of 200+. There was an post few years back where ACM outlined why PAF wanted US to give PAF option for used F-16s to replace some of the older jets.


Older F16 is alot better than F7 with V upgrades good for another 15 yrs. Lets see how deal pans out


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## loanranger

thunderkaka said:


> Is the following true?
> 
> All Mirage III's and V's are planned to be replaced by JF-17s by 2030. In addition all F-7Ps/PGs are to be replaced by JF-17s by 2025.
> 
> *That's a total of 454 jets.*
> 
> Source: Wiki


We make 24 jets a year. It would take us approximately 19 years to make 454 jets.


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## GriffinsRule

Not a patch, but a historic picture of a PAF Hawker with the markings of No 14 Squadron. The name Tail Choppers was given later after 1965. Wonder what they were called before that.





http://thetheoryofwellsomethings.blogspot.com/2018/09/saath-jaye-gi-parwaaz-meri.html

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## Talon

GriffinsRule said:


> Not a patch, but a historic picture of a PAF Hawker with the markings of No 14 Squadron. The name Tail Choppers was given later after 1965. Wonder what they were called before that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://thetheoryofwellsomethings.blogspot.com/2018/09/saath-jaye-gi-parwaaz-meri.html


Old name was "Shaheens"

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## ghazi52

RAF Risalpur .....1931 / 1932

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## GriffinsRule

Hodor said:


> Old name was "Shaheens"


Thanks!


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## Graham Nelmes

View media item 18084View media item 18083I am hoping to visit Karachi soon from the UK. I lived there until 1954 whilst my Father was attached to the RPAF. I have good memories of our house and the Officers' Mess and have attached photos of them Can anyone tell me if they are still there please?

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## Bossman

Graham Nelmes said:


> View media item 18084View media item 18083I am hoping to visit Karachi soon from the UK. I lived there until 1954 whilst my Father was attached to the RPAF. I have good memories of our house and the Officers' Mess and have attached photos of them Can anyone tell me if they are still there please?


The old C type houses are still there but not accessible from Drigh Road (Shahraeh Faisal) as they have built a security wall. I lived in one of the same houses.

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## Graham Nelmes

Bossman said:


> The old C type houses are still there but not accessible from Drigh Road (Shahraeh Faisal) as they have built a security wall. I lived in one of the same houses.


Thank you. Is it possible to show me on Google Maps where they are please? I would be very grateful.


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## ghazi52

*Air Chief meets Kenyan counterpart, discusses matters of mutual cooperation*





October 26, 2019

Chief of the Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan held a meeting with Commander of Kenya Air Force Major General Francis Ogolla at Moi Air Base in Nairobi, Kenya.
 
Various matters of mutual cooperation and professional interest came under discussion during the meeting.

The Commander of Kenya Air Force appreciated high standards of professionalism being set by Pakistan Air Force over the years.

The air chief offered support to the Kenya Air Force in the fields of military training and aviation.

Both the dignitaries’ reiterated resolve to further enhance the existing cordial relations between both the air forces.


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## ghazi52



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## loanranger

Nigerian JF-17s on the cards?
Super Mushshak already serving.

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## khanasifm

ghazi52 said:


> *Air Chief meets Kenyan counterpart, discusses matters of mutual cooperation*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> October 26, 2019
> 
> Chief of the Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan held a meeting with Commander of Kenya Air Force Major General Francis Ogolla at Moi Air Base in Nairobi, Kenya.
> 
> Various matters of mutual cooperation and professional interest came under discussion during the meeting.
> 
> The Commander of Kenya Air Force appreciated high standards of professionalism being set by Pakistan Air Force over the years.
> 
> The air chief offered support to the Kenya Air Force in the fields of military training and aviation.
> 
> Both the dignitaries’ reiterated resolve to further enhance the existing cordial relations between both the air forces.




https://www.scramble.nl/orbats/kenya/summary

F-5 need replacement ??


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## ghazi52

The only fighter jet in the world who scored a collision with a moving train. 
Happened at the only airport in the world where a railway track crosses the main runway. Happened in 1993.
A PAF F-6 while taking off , crashed into a train crossing the runway at Peshawar air port.

Both pilots escaped unharmed.

The railway line is closed now . Back in the days it used to carry a train service to Afghanistan Border via Landikotal and Jamrud.
The train would stop before the runway awaiting clearance from the control tower. well taking that into account, the Peshawar airport also happened to be the only airport in the world where Aircraft control tower also controlled trains.
In August 1993 a communication lapse between train driver and control tower caused the accident.

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## syed_yusuf

ghazi52 said:


> The only fighter jet in the world who scored a collision with a moving train.
> Happened at the only airport in the world where a railway track crosses the main runway. Happened in 1993.
> A PAF F-6 while taking off , crashed into a train crossing the runway at Peshawar air port.
> 
> Both pilots escaped unharmed.
> 
> The railway line is closed now . Back in the days it used to carry a train service to Afghanistan Border via Landikotal and Jamrud.
> The train would stop before the runway awaiting clearance from the control tower. well taking that into account, the Peshawar airport also happened to be the only airport in the world where Aircraft control tower also controlled trains.
> In August 1993 a communication lapse between train driver and control tower caused the accident.



I did not know that any picture of the airport of that time will be awesome

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## ghazi52

.........
.. ...........................................







syed_yusuf said:


> I did not know that any picture of the airport of that time will be awesome

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## fatman17

thunderkaka said:


> Is the following true?
> 
> All Mirage III's and V's are planned to be replaced by JF-17s by 2030. In addition all F-7Ps/PGs are to be replaced by JF-17s by 2025.
> 
> *That's a total of 454 jets.*
> 
> Source: Wiki


Single JF17 capabilities = at least 2 if not 3 mirages and F7s. As per ACM statement no 1:1 replacement.

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## fatman17

The JF-17BBC0001 prototype conducted its maiden flight on April 27, 2017. The JF-17B 02 prototype flew for the first time on December 7, 2017. Currently the 01 prototype (17-601) is conducting test flights at PAC with the pitot tube removed from the nose. The 03 prototype conducted its maiden flight on August 3rd, 2018. 26 were reportedly ordered by PAF, with the initial delivery in 2019 (starting 19-604?). A recent rumor (November 2018) suggested that an EW variant (JF-17E?) has been proposed.

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## fatman17

A recent image (March 2019) indicated that first customer of JF-17B(M) (S/N 1707) turned out to be the Myanmar Air Force, which has been delivered to MAF.
- Last Updated 10/26/19

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## ziaulislam

fatman17 said:


> Single JF17 capabilities = at least 2 if not 3 mirages and F7s. As per ACM statement no 1:1 replacement.


however ACM did say they wanted ~400 operational aircraft in recent interview..
182+76=~260..
still short of 140 ACs

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## devil302

Has anyone seen news about pak-turk joint venture in 5th gen aircraft that they would work together..
It was on news channels today atound 3pm


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## The Eagle

devil302 said:


> Has anyone seen news about pak-turk joint venture in 5th gen aircraft that they would work together..
> It was on news channels today atound 3pm



There is no news until & unless you share details and try to find source/link of the same website. 

Regards,

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## HRK

PAF Inter Squadron Armament Competition

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## SABRE

HRK said:


> PAF Inter Squadron Armament Competition



F-16's sound was like "yeah, what ever!"

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## fatman17

JF-17 retains PAF’s top fighter slot at armament competition

By news desk

Oct.30,2019

Fighter pilots exhibit highest level of professionalism through pinpoint weapon delivery

PAC JF-17 Thunder combat aircraft, developed jointly with China, reaffirmed its position as the front line fighter of the Pakistan Air Force after displaying exceptional performance at PAF’s Inter-Squadron Armament Competition on Wednesday.

The most anticipated contest of the force’s operational year was held at Sonmiani firing range, said a statement issued by the PAF in Karachi.

The competition, which commenced on October 10, saw PAF fighter pilots from all weapon systems exhibiting highest level of professionalism through pinpoint weapon delivery. After a close competition, No 11 Multirole Squadron achieved highest score and was declared the winner of Inter-Squadron Armament Trophy.

The Best Armament Trophy (BAT), introduced for the first time in this year’s competition, was shared by No 2 and No 8 squadrons, while No 14 Squadron won the Maintenance Trophy.


Wing Commander Noman Akram was awarded the coveted Sher Afgan Trophy for being the best marksman in the competition.


All PAF Fighter Squadrons were evaluated for operational readiness and weapon system performance under the competitive environment. “The main highlight of the competition was exceptional performance by the JF-17 Thunder aircraft and it reaffirmed its position as the front line fighter of the PAF.”


Wing Commander Noman Akram being awarded the trophy. PHOTO: PAF

The closing ceremony of the contest was held at an operational air base. Chief of the Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan was the chief guest of the ceremony.

Speaking on the occasion, the air chief said that PAF places highest premium on self-reliance through indigenisation alongside modernisation and expansion of existing combat capabilities. He added that PAF stands ever-ready for the aerial defence of motherland and has always responded to the nation’s call with full valour and commitment.

Commenting on the Kashmir situation, he said that, “We stand by our Kashmiri brethren in their just struggle for self-determination”. ACM Mujahid reiterated that the human atrocities must end immediately, adding that, “we are fully alive to the situation and cannot lower our guards”.

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## khanasifm

fatman17 said:


> JF-17 retains PAF’s top fighter slot at armament competition
> 
> By news desk
> 
> Oct.30,2019
> 
> Fighter pilots exhibit highest level of professionalism through pinpoint weapon delivery
> 
> PAC JF-17 Thunder combat aircraft, developed jointly with China, reaffirmed its position as the front line fighter of the Pakistan Air Force after displaying exceptional performance at PAF’s Inter-Squadron Armament Competition on Wednesday.
> 
> The most anticipated contest of the force’s operational year was held at Sonmiani firing range, said a statement issued by the PAF in Karachi.
> 
> The competition, which commenced on October 10, saw PAF fighter pilots from all weapon systems exhibiting highest level of professionalism through pinpoint weapon delivery. After a close competition, No 11 Multirole Squadron achieved highest score and was declared the winner of Inter-Squadron Armament Trophy.
> 
> The Best Armament Trophy (BAT), introduced for the first time in this year’s competition, was shared by No 2 and No 8 squadrons, while No 14 Squadron won the Maintenance Trophy.
> 
> 
> Wing Commander Noman Akram was awarded the coveted Sher Afgan Trophy for being the best marksman in the competition.
> 
> 
> All PAF Fighter Squadrons were evaluated for operational readiness and weapon system performance under the competitive environment. “The main highlight of the competition was exceptional performance by the JF-17 Thunder aircraft and it reaffirmed its position as the front line fighter of the PAF.”
> 
> 
> Wing Commander Noman Akram being awarded the trophy. PHOTO: PAF
> 
> The closing ceremony of the contest was held at an operational air base. Chief of the Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan was the chief guest of the ceremony.
> 
> Speaking on the occasion, the air chief said that PAF places highest premium on self-reliance through indigenisation alongside modernisation and expansion of existing combat capabilities. He added that PAF stands ever-ready for the aerial defence of motherland and has always responded to the nation’s call with full valour and commitment.
> 
> Commenting on the Kashmir situation, he said that, “We stand by our Kashmiri brethren in their just struggle for self-determination”. ACM Mujahid reiterated that the human atrocities must end immediately, adding that, “we are fully alive to the situation and cannot lower our guards”.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 586781
> View attachment 586782



So f-16, mirage and jf-17 sqn won something and nothing for f-7 sqn , also in the past even no 1 sqn with k-8 go for missile firing camps not sure if it was part of this competition as k-8 has a War time role

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## RAMPAGE

The PAF has managed some pretty significant accomplishments in recent years. Things one can do when one isn't occupied with moral policing, especially that of the political nature. Other institutions may want to follow PAF's example.

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## messiach

That's a strong engine.



fatman17 said:


> The JF-17BBC0001 prototype conducted its maiden flight on April 27, 2017. The JF-17B 02 prototype flew for the first time on December 7, 2017. Currently the 01 prototype (17-601) is conducting test flights at PAC with the pitot tube removed from the nose. The 03 prototype conducted its maiden flight on August 3rd, 2018. 26 were reportedly ordered by PAF, with the initial delivery in 2019 (starting 19-604?). A recent rumor (November 2018) suggested that an EW variant (JF-17E?) has been proposed.
> View attachment 586552

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## The Eagle

messiach said:


> That's a strong engine.



One can imagine by looking at output/heat but are you suggesting other than existing RD-93? Just curious by the gist of your post.

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## fatman17

The National Interest

The JF-17 Fighter Shows How China Will Help Pakistan Fight Off India


November 3, 2019 Topic: Security Blog

by Charlie Gao

Key point: The global arms market meets the world's most dangerous hot zone.


The 2019 India-Pakistan border skirmish resulted in major shake-ups within the Indian Air Force (IAF). The most accepted narrative, that of a loss of an IAF MiG-21 Bison to no losses of the Pakistan Air Force bodes poorly for the IAF. But interestingly, according to a July interview, the skirmish marked one of the first “hot” use of Pakistan’s new Chinese JF-17 “Thunder” fighters.



The JF-17 is a relatively new single-engine fighter, meant to compete against other light fighters like the F-16, Gripen, and MiG-29 for export contracts. As the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is the only large user, most solid information about the aircraft is from Chinese marketing documents. But the July interview gives one pilot’s opinion on how the JF-17 stacks up against most common adversaries, from Sukhois to F-16s.

The extent of the JF-17’s “hot” usage following the border skirmish was in patrols near the border. In some incidents, the pilot said that during these patrols, he was getting radar lock-on Su-30MKIs at ranges in excess of 100 kilometers.

However, this doesn’t mean that a JF-17 could kill with a missile at that range. The JF-17’s primary beyond-visual-range (BVR) armament is the PL-12 missile, which is still undergoing integration (as of February 2019). During the actual border air skirmish, PAF F-16s lobbed AIM-120C-5 AMRAAM missiles at similar ranges, which forced IAF aircraft to go defensive to dodge the missiles, but no kills were scored. As the PL-12 is said to have a similar range to the AMRAAM, it’s likely that its kinematic performance at range is similar, and it too wouldn’t be able to score a kill.


But if the JF-17 allows the pilot to “lob” a missile at planes at such ranges, it still might be a step ahead of the IAF’s Su-30MKIs. According to an NDTV report, the Russian R-77 missiles cannot engage targets past 80 km.

Despite the Su-30’s missile limitations, the JF-17 pilot said that the Su-30 was one of the most formidable threats the PAF faces. This is likely due to the strong engines and maneuvering capability of the Su-30, which allows it to recover energy quickly after maneuvering and makes it hard to shoot down in a within visual range (WVR) engagement.

Interestingly, the pilot then goes onto state that he’s not that afraid of the Su-30 because he’s trained against F-16s with AMRAAMs, which he thinks is a far superior missile. The pilot also states that the MICA on the Mirage is also a significant threat.

This suggests that the pilot probably thinks that the fight will be largely decided, or largely influenced by the BVR stage of the engagement and that the JF-17’s capabilities in that arena are competitive to the F-16 and Mirage. However, the pilot does say that the JF-17’s limited BVR loadout is its main weakness, as most models of the JF-17 can only carry four BVR missiles, compared to the Su-30MKI which can carry eight or more.

The pilot also gives good marks to the JF-17 for reliability, flight characteristics, and maintenance. As the JF-17 is one of China’s “clean slate” designs, this bodes well for the reliability characteristics of the current generation of Chinese aircraft. However, the JF-17 still uses a Russian engine, and the PAF rejected offers to use Chinese engines in their JF-17s in 2015. Engines remain a critical weakness in the Chinese aerospace industry.

Charlie Gao studied political and computer science at Grinnell College and is a frequent commentator on defense and national-security issues. This article originally appeared earlier this year and is being republished due to reader interest.

Image: Wikipedia.

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## Roller321321

According to that article it would seem that if a Block 3 JF-17 fires a PL-15 around 100kms(or upto 200kms)of range, not only would the JF be quite safe considering the Russian R-77 isn't effective after 80kms, the Sukhoi would have a harder time out maneuvering the PL-15 as the missile will have plenty of juice left.

It seems that the Sukhois will not be nearly as intimidating after the integration of PL-15s and AESA, is the writer missing out on some things or am I? 

The article also talks about missile limitations on the SU, surely an air superiority platform would be able to fire better BVR missiles, why didn't they mention it in the article, does India not have any longer range Russian missiles?

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## khanasifm

Did you know that missile range depends heavily on the altitude of the launching aircraft (and its target)? A missile launched at sea level may only have one-third the range of a missile launched at 40,000ft, where the thinner air causes less drag and improves rocket thrust.


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## khanasifm

https://www.popularmechanics.com/flight/g2323/greatest-flying-aces/


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## truthseeker2010

Roller321321 said:


> According to that article it would seem that if a Block 3 JF-17 fires a PL-15 around 100kms(or upto 200kms)of range, not only would the JF be quite safe considering the Russian R-77 isn't effective after 80kms, the Sukhoi would have a harder time out maneuvering the PL-15 as the missile will have plenty of juice left.
> 
> It seems that the Sukhois will not be nearly as intimidating after the integration of PL-15s and AESA, is the writer missing out on some things or am I?
> 
> The article also talks about missile limitations on the SU, surely an air superiority platform would be able to fire better BVR missiles, why didn't they mention it in the article, does India not have any longer range Russian missiles?



There is a reason why there is a hue and cry in India for rafale, the main reason is the meteor.

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## GriffinsRule

khanasifm said:


> Did you know that missile range depends heavily on the altitude of the launching aircraft (and its target)? A missile launched at sea level may only have one-third the range of a missile launched at 40,000ft, where the thinner air causes less drag and improves rocket thrust.
> 
> View attachment 587556


As well as the speed of the launch aircraft


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## Chak Bamu

fatman17 said:


> Charlie Gao studied political and computer science at Grinnell College and is a frequent commentator on defense and national-security issues. This article originally appeared earlier this year and is being republished due to reader interest.



Charlie Gao read one article from Hush Kit blog and wrote a song about it.

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## SD 10

RAMPAGE said:


> The PAF has managed some pretty significant accomplishments in recent years. Things one can do when one isn't occupied with moral policing, especially that of the political nature. Other institutions may want to follow PAF's example.


can you give a few examples?


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## The Eagle

*Sri Lankan Chief of Defence Staff calls on Air Chief Marshal Mujhaid Anwar Khan*

November 05, 2019







Sri Lankan Chief of Defence Staff Admiral Ravindra Wijegunaratne called on Air Chief Marshal Mujhaid Anwar Khan during his visit to Air Headquarters in Islamabad on Tuesday.

Sri Lankan Chief of Defence Staff agreed to explore new avenues to enhance bilateral professional cooperation.

Air Chief assured Sri Lankan Chief of Defence Staff of sustained support and cooperation in the fields of technical training and professional expertise.

Earlier, on his arrival, a smartly turned out contingent of Pakistan Air Force presented the Guard of Honour.

The visiting dignitary paid homage to the martyrs of PAF by laying floral wreath on Martyrs' Monument.


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## Syed1.

No offense but pretty unimpressive physique and posture displayed by Sri Lankan chief.

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## Haris Ali2140

Syed1. said:


> No offense but pretty unimpressive physique and posture displayed by Sri Lankan chief.


Maybe he was changing his position when the oic was clicked?

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## messiach

Est calculated idle thrust @ sealevel 107 +/- 1.2 SD.



The Eagle said:


> One can imagine by looking at output/heat but are you suggesting other than existing RD-93? Just curious by the gist of your post.

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## khanasifm

At paf museum

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## fatman17

Syed1. said:


> No offense but pretty unimpressive physique and posture displayed by Sri Lankan chief.


Needs keto diet plan [emoji12]


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## fatman17

The Pak AF's No 11 Multirole Squadron flying F-16s won this year's Inter Squadron Armament competition (ISAC). The competition, which took place Oct 10-30, saw all the PAF weapons systems (fighters) involved. Best Armament Trophy was shared between 2 Sqn and 8 Sqn. https://t.co/qkKJU2LlEI

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## Roller321321

Why are the intakes covered with the red material when the jets are on display? 

Is it to prevent people from throwing anything into the intake? Then why do they cover it in their own airbase?


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## Ultima Thule

Roller321321 said:


> Why are the intakes covered with the red material when the jets are on display?
> 
> Is it to prevent people from throwing anything into the intake? Then why do they cover it in their own airbase?


for safety bro


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## Talon

Roller321321 said:


> Why are the intakes covered with the red material when the jets are on display?
> 
> Is it to prevent people from throwing anything into the intake? Then why do they cover it in their own airbase?


FOD and Birds..No one deliberately throws anything in the intakes.

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## Roller321321

Hodor said:


> FOD and Birds..No one deliberately throws anything in the intakes.



What damage could birds do to a static plane?


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## Bossman

Roller321321 said:


> What damage could birds do to a static plane?


Lay eggs in the engine and make omelettes.

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## fatman17

JF-17 / FC-1 prototype no. 06 spotted with a unique pod ... IMO looks like some sort of camera pod. [emoji848] https://t.co/2LC5GyTm8m

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## syed_yusuf

look at the center line fuel tank.

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## khanasifm

syed_yusuf said:


> look at the center line fuel tank.



F-7s 800 liters drop tank

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## Talon

Pakistani pilot flying solo in Turk T38.


        View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram

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## denel

Hodor said:


> Pakistani pilot flying solo in Turk F5.
> 
> 
> View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram


correction. T-38 not F5.

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## Talon

denel said:


> correction. T-38 not F5.


Corrected, Thanks.


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## khanasifm

Alternate Mission equipment , Another capability due to MRF 
Covering all weapon system including f-16

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## ghazi52

Air Chief, Turkish Commander discuss professional matters

November 19, 2019







Chief of General Staff of Turkish Armed Forces General Yasar Guler called on Air Chief Mujahid Anwar Khan in Islamabad on Tuesday and discussed matters of professional and mutual interest.

General Yasar Guler appreciated the sound professionalism of PAF personnel. He also expressed his desire to learn from each other experiences.

The Air Chief said both the countries enjoy cordial and brotherly relations and reiterated his resolve to further enhance the existing cooperation between the two countries.

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## fatman17

C4iSR: Land

JY-27A radar spotted in Pakistan

Sean O’Connor, Indianapolis - Jane's Defence Weekly

20 November 2019


Key Points has identified a JY-27A CVLO radar in imagery captured of Mianwali Air Base in PakistanA modern VHF-band system, China's JY-27A was not previously known to have been exported to Pakistan

Satellite imagery captured on 29 August has revealed a China Electronics Technology Group Corporation (CETC) JY-27A counter-very-low-observable (CVLO) radar at Mianwali Air Base (AB) in Pakistan. Imagery examination indicates the radar arrived between 5 June and 29 August and was not yet fully erected as of 2 September.

The sale of the JY-27A to Pakistan has gone unnoticed in the open press, with most air-defence-related reporting concerned with Pakistan's desire to import advanced Chinese surface-to-air missile (SAM) systems.

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## fatman17

fatman17 said:


> C4iSR: Land
> 
> JY-27A radar spotted in Pakistan
> 
> Sean O’Connor, Indianapolis - Jane's Defence Weekly
> 
> 20 November 2019
> 
> 
> Key Points has identified a JY-27A CVLO radar in imagery captured of Mianwali Air Base in PakistanA modern VHF-band system, China's JY-27A was not previously known to have been exported to Pakistan
> 
> Satellite imagery captured on 29 August has revealed a China Electronics Technology Group Corporation (CETC) JY-27A counter-very-low-observable (CVLO) radar at Mianwali Air Base (AB) in Pakistan. Imagery examination indicates the radar arrived between 5 June and 29 August and was not yet fully erected as of 2 September.
> 
> The sale of the JY-27A to Pakistan has gone unnoticed in the open press, with most air-defence-related reporting concerned with Pakistan's desire to import advanced Chinese surface-to-air missile (SAM) systems.


JY27A

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## kursed

Here it is.

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## khanasifm

http://errymath.blogspot.com/2016/11/anti-stealth-radars-on-display-at.html


YJ27A 3-D long-range surveillance/guidance radar. Operating in the VHF band, it adopts 2-D electronic scanning in azimuth and elevation. It is active phased array system, and it is stated to be resistant to jamming and with ‘high measurement accuracy’. The trailer-mounted radar is in service and has been spotted in Shigatse, Tibet, for example. 
There are unverified claims that the radar can pick up hostile stealth fighters at ranges of up to 500km. If these reports are accurate, such Chinese radars could swiftly nullify the advantages of stealth aircraft. The JY-27A is also designed to address the ballistic missile threat. 

The Nanjing Research Institute of Electronic Technology (NRIET) is at the forefront of CETC's programme and produced two of the units on display at the Zhuhai air show, the YLC-8B and SLC-7.

China Expands Deployment of JY-27A Anti-Stealth Radar Systems
IHS Global, Inc. • May 28
•••
Two newly identified deployments of China's JY-27A metre-wave radar bring the total number of such systems in operation within the PLAAF to at least 10.
This comes amid media reports claiming that China's metre-wave radars are now capable of not only detecting VLO aircraft but also providing missiles with in-flight guidance commands to intercept a designated target.
The number of counter-very low observable (CVLO) radar systems deployed with radar units of China's People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) is increasing.

One of the newest CVLO systems to enter service is the JY-27A from state-owned electronics and radar systems developer China Electronics Technology Group Corporation (CETC).

Source: www.janes.com

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## fatman17

kursed said:


> Here it is.


Those swept wing aircraft look like F6s?


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## LKJ86

fatman17 said:


> JY27A
> View attachment 590705

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## khanasifm

Modp report also mentioned vhf/uhf radar being developed locally ?

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## fatman17

One of the PAC Super Mushshak demonstrators is in static. No appearance by the JF-17 Thunder this year. According to PAC the main marketing drive was saved for Paris in June. I spoke to Nigerian AF Chief on Sat who is looking forward to receiving his three jets next year. https://t.co/WEYl4KCJTv


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## Ahmet Pasha

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 590720
> 
> View attachment 590719



So this can intercept stealth aircraft??


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## MIRauf

It has the potential to detect Stealth / low observable flying craft. USAF tested extensively against vera radar, likely has taken into consideration and perhaps have found work around it.

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## fatman17

MIRauf said:


> It has the potential to detect Stealth / low observable flying craft. USAF tested extensively against vera radar, likely has taken into consideration and perhaps have found work around it.


Czech Vera was blocked by US for sale to Pakistan, this is the alternative.

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## Windjammer



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## Windjammer

'Sniper 1' From No 19 ''Sherdil'' Squadron.

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## fatman17

Air Platforms

Dubai Airshow 2019: China’s Chengdu promotes J-10C export variant

Reuben F Johnson, Dubai - Jane's Defence Weekly

22 November 2019


A model of the FC-20E, displayed at the Dubai Airshow. Source: Reuben Johnson

The Chengdu Aerospace Corporation (CAC), one of two major fighter aircraft design and production centres in the People’s Republic of China (PRC), revealed the export variant of its J-10 fighter at the 17-21 November Dubai Airshow. Designated the FC-20E, the design is a near-parallel configuration of the J-10C, the third major iteration of the aircraft.

Photographs of the J-10C that circulated on Chinese aviation websites in October showed the aircraft still flying in factory primer, suggesting it is only in the initial stages of series-production.

It differs considerably from the original J-10A, most notably in its power plant. The initial J-10 batches have the Russian Salyut-made AL-31FN Series 3, a derivative of the engine installed in the Sukhoi Su-27 and Su-30MKK purchased by China.

The installation of the AL-31F in the J-10A required the Salyut plant’s design team to rotate the gearbox and accessory pack to the underside of the engine. The aircraft’s air intake also had to be a quadrangular shape like that of the Su-27 inlet.

In contrast, the J-10C is reported to be powered with the Chinese-made Wo Shan (WS)-10A engine and features a diverterless, oblong-shaped air inlet. The CAC design team has also demonstrated the aircraft flying with an axisymmetric thrust vector control (TVC) nozzle and a modified nozzle that should reduce the rear hemisphere radar cross section. A J-10C pre-production aircraft in this configuration flew at the November 2018 Air Show China in Zhuhai.

The J-10C is also equipped with an active electronically scanning array (AESA) radar, a new avionics suite, and electronic warfare (EW) modules.

Direct threat to JF17 sales?

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## PakFactor

fatman17 said:


> Air Platforms
> 
> Dubai Airshow 2019: China’s Chengdu promotes J-10C export variant
> 
> Reuben F Johnson, Dubai - Jane's Defence Weekly
> 
> 22 November 2019
> 
> 
> A model of the FC-20E, displayed at the Dubai Airshow. Source: Reuben Johnson
> 
> The Chengdu Aerospace Corporation (CAC), one of two major fighter aircraft design and production centres in the People’s Republic of China (PRC), revealed the export variant of its J-10 fighter at the 17-21 November Dubai Airshow. Designated the FC-20E, the design is a near-parallel configuration of the J-10C, the third major iteration of the aircraft.
> 
> Photographs of the J-10C that circulated on Chinese aviation websites in October showed the aircraft still flying in factory primer, suggesting it is only in the initial stages of series-production.
> 
> It differs considerably from the original J-10A, most notably in its power plant. The initial J-10 batches have the Russian Salyut-made AL-31FN Series 3, a derivative of the engine installed in the Sukhoi Su-27 and Su-30MKK purchased by China.
> 
> The installation of the AL-31F in the J-10A required the Salyut plant’s design team to rotate the gearbox and accessory pack to the underside of the engine. The aircraft’s air intake also had to be a quadrangular shape like that of the Su-27 inlet.
> 
> In contrast, the J-10C is reported to be powered with the Chinese-made Wo Shan (WS)-10A engine and features a diverterless, oblong-shaped air inlet. The CAC design team has also demonstrated the aircraft flying with an axisymmetric thrust vector control (TVC) nozzle and a modified nozzle that should reduce the rear hemisphere radar cross section. A J-10C pre-production aircraft in this configuration flew at the November 2018 Air Show China in Zhuhai.
> 
> The J-10C is also equipped with an active electronically scanning array (AESA) radar, a new avionics suite, and electronic warfare (EW) modules.
> 
> Direct threat to JF17 sales?
> 
> View attachment 591162



That’s one beautiful looking bird.
Don’t know why we don’t get those to be honest.


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## Shah_Deu

PakFactor said:


> That’s one beautiful looking bird.
> Don’t know why we don’t get those to be honest.


Because we already got an aircraft in JF-17 Blk3 specifically designed to our needs and with similar capabilities to be honest.


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## Cool_Soldier

J10 C seems equivalent to F16 Block 52.
PAF should consider it. However, PAF needs something to counter Indian Rafale fighter plane.


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## Tamiyah

Cool_Soldier said:


> J10 C seems equivalent to F16 Block 52.
> PAF should consider it. However, PAF needs something to counter Indian Rafale fighter plane.


Don't you think that we should stop depending on China and develop something in-house..?


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## Haris Ali2140

Tamiyah said:


> Don't you think that we should stop depending on China and develop something in-house..?


Nice idea.
But from where the money will come???


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## LKJ86

Cool_Soldier said:


> J10 C seems equivalent to F16 Block 52.


Are you kidding?


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## Tamiyah

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Nice idea.
> But from where the money will come???


Pakistan can invest gradually. Who says to invest 3 to 4 billion at one go. If government provide enough facility for our young generation they could help improve our image in aviation industry. But first we should build proper aviation universities.
I hope we would get something out of Project AZM.


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## Haris Ali2140

Tamiyah said:


> Pakistan can invest gradually. Who says to invest 3 to 4 billion at one go. If government provide enough facility for our young generation they could help improve our image in aviation industry. But first we should build proper aviation universities.
> I hope we would get something out of Project AZM.


With India building up next door we don't have the luxury of waiting.
We have projects going on which will help us in the long run like AZM. However somethings we have procure from abraod.


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## ZedZeeshan

Cool_Soldier said:


> J10 C seems equivalent to F16 Block 52.
> PAF should consider it. However, PAF needs something to counter Indian Rafale fighter plane.


It is superior to Block 52... Having AESA radar

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## Tamiyah

Haris Ali2140 said:


> With India building up next door we don't have the luxury of waiting.
> We have projects going on which will help us in the long run like AZM. However somethings we have procure from abraod.


You're right but slow and steady wins the race.
We dont want to develop something like LCA Tejas.


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## Haris Ali2140

Tamiyah said:


> You're right but slow and steady wins the race.
> We dont want to develop something like LCA Tejas.


Things we can produce we are producing them in-house. Things on which we can afford to do R&D we are doing it.


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## Tamiyah

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Things we can produce we are producing them in-house. Things on which we can afford to do R&D we are doing it.


Yeah you know everything takes time.


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## Cool_Soldier

Tamiyah said:


> Don't you think that we should stop depending on China and develop something in-house..?



Definitely, we should develop. we are actually developing JF -17 Block 3 to counter Rafale threat and PAF is also working on 5th Generation plan.
But right now we are in urgent need of something to counter threat as IAF already received 3 Rafale fighter and will receive more soon. That's why PAF should get something in small number around 24 to tackle current situation and rest keep working by its own.

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## GriffinsRule

Cool_Soldier said:


> Definitely, we should develop. we are actually developing JF -17 Block 3 to counter Rafale threat and PAF is also working on 5th Generation plan.
> But right now we are in urgent need of something to counter threat as IAF already received 3 Rafale fighter and will receive more soon. That's why PAF should get something in small number around 24 to tackle current situation and rest keep working by its own.


Order today and delivery of anything urgent would be 2-3 years from now. Soooo ... Block III is as fast as you will get.


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## PakShaheen79

Problem 1 : China does not use JF-17. It is a PAF specific fighter at least it started that way.
Problem 2: FC-20E is "Light Weight" fighter in Chinese categorization along with J-16 as medium and J-20 as heavy weight. It simply means, JF-17 is ultra-light weight by that categorization. 

It will help China to pitch FC-20E more aggressively while JF-17 will be look like an ultra light fighter which it is not actually. It would be interesting to see how PAC comes up with Block-III marketing. In retrospective narrative, perhaps this is why PAF is reluctant to procure J-10C as it will simply means that PAF's own light weight fighter is not light weight ... hence it was forced to import it. This is quite a Pandora Box.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

PakShaheen79 said:


> Problem 1 : China does not use JF-17. It is a PAF specific fighter at least it started that way.
> Problem 2: FC-20E is "Light Weight" fighter in Chinese categorization along with J-16 as medium and J-20 as heavy weight. It simply means, JF-17 is ultra-light weight by that categorization.
> 
> It will help China to pitch FC-20E more aggressively while JF-17 will be look like an ultra light fighter which it is not actually. It would be interesting to see how PAC comes up with Block-III marketing. In retrospective narrative, perhaps this is why PAF is reluctant to procure J-10C as it will simply means that PAF's own light weight fighter is not light weight ... hence it was forced to import it. This is quite a Pandora Box.


Well, according to the 1999-2009 PAF history book, the FC-20 (J-10As) were meant for deep-strike. Let's say the money wasn't the issue, the PAF could've also walked away because the added payoff of the J-10A wasn't enough to justify the cost of a whole new fighter platform. Let's see how things pan out with the FC-20E/J-10C. 

If there's a way to fit the Ra'ad/Ra'ad II and H2/H4 onto it, then if anything, the FC-20E becomes the contingency option in case the FGFA hits a snag (e.g., delays, complications, etc). But then again, it seems the Ra'ad is also a unique beast and that the Mirage might be the only platform viable for it. In other words, the Ra'ad itself may need a change, and in that case, it might just work from the JF-17, which again negates the need of the FC-20E.

@JamD

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## JamD

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Well, according to the 1999-2009 PAF history book, the FC-20 (J-10As) were meant for deep-strike. Let's say the money wasn't the issue, the PAF could've also walked away because the added payoff of the J-10A wasn't enough to justify the cost of a whole new fighter platform. Let's see how things pan out with the FC-20E/J-10C.
> 
> If there's a way to fit the Ra'ad/Ra'ad II and H2/H4 onto it, then if anything, the FC-20E becomes the contingency option in case the FGFA hits a snag (e.g., delays, complications, etc). But then again, it seems the Ra'ad is also a unique beast and that the Mirage might be the only platform viable for it. In other words, the Ra'ad itself may need a change, and in that case, it might just work from the JF-17, which again negates the need of the FC-20E.
> 
> @JamD



It's really hard to say whether or not PAF would go for FC-20E even if FGFA hits delays (which it probably will). IMHO they will not under most circumstances because we're poor and we're kind of planning for other things. It does not come as a surprise to me the JF-17 block 3 was (at least partially) spec-d based on the threat from Rafales. This is the best we can do with our limited resources. I think PAF will "brave it out" with JF-17 block 3 or 4 even in the case FGFA is delayed.

Also, it is quite obvious that the Ra'ad and our Mirage fleet will retire at the same time. That time being when there is a new nuclear capable ALCM capable of being carried by JF-17 and a SOW in the class of H2/H4. Both seem to be areas of active development (with only little pieces of news sneaking out here and there). I think PAF is focused more on replacing Ra'ad and H2/H4 instead of Mirages if you know what I mean. I kind of agree with this plan of action given the circumstances because I see no reason why the the JF-17 cannot perform the strike role (given the right systems). Especially given some rumors of CFTs for the JF-17.



PakShaheen79 said:


> Problem 1 : China does not use JF-17. It is a PAF specific fighter at least it started that way.
> Problem 2: FC-20E is "Light Weight" fighter in Chinese categorization along with J-16 as medium and J-20 as heavy weight. It simply means, JF-17 is ultra-light weight by that categorization.
> 
> It will help China to pitch FC-20E more aggressively while JF-17 will be look like an ultra light fighter which it is not actually. It would be interesting to see how PAC comes up with Block-III marketing. In retrospective narrative, perhaps this is why PAF is reluctant to procure J-10C as it will simply means that PAF's own light weight fighter is not light weight ... hence it was forced to import it. This is quite a Pandora Box.



I think it has a lot to do with China's size and Pakistan's size. We can do with a short-legged cheap jet that can do it all. The Chinese need bigger planes to cover more land mass and fly out to sea. They only flew J-7s out of compulsion and would much rather fly J-10s instead.

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## khanasifm

JamD said:


> It's really hard to say whether or not PAF would go for FC-20E even if FGFA hits delays (which it probably will). IMHO they will not under most circumstances because we're poor and we're kind of planning for other things. It does not come as a surprise to me the JF-17 block 3 was (at least partially) spec-d based on the threat from Rafales. This is the best we can do with our limited resources. I think PAF will "brave it out" with JF-17 block 3 or 4 even in the case FGFA is delayed.
> 
> Also, it is quite obvious that the Ra'ad and our Mirage fleet will retire at the same time. That time being when there is a new nuclear capable ALCM capable of being carried by JF-17 and a SOW in the class of H2/H4. Both seem to be areas of active development (with only little pieces of news sneaking out here and there). I think PAF is focused more on replacing Ra'ad and H2/H4 instead of Mirages if you know what I mean. I kind of agree with this plan of action given the circumstances because I see no reason why the the JF-17 cannot perform the strike role (given the right systems). Especially given some rumors of CFTs for the JF-17.
> 
> 
> 
> I think it has a lot to do with China's size and Pakistan's size. We can do with a short-legged cheap jet that can do it all. The Chinese need bigger planes to cover more land mass and fly out to sea. They only flew J-7s out of compulsion and would much rather fly J-10s instead.



Per paf book 2014 in 1990s paf were to buy 150 and plaaf another 100 but due delays as paf was asking for western standards and avionics the program was delayed till 2000 and revived by going ahead with everything minus avionics then it does not mention anything about plaaf 100 jf -17


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## JamD

khanasifm said:


> Per paf book 2014 in 1990s paf were to buy 150 and plaaf another 100 but due delays as paf was asking for western standards and avionics the program was delayed till 2000 and revived by going ahead with everything minus avionics then it does not mention anything about plaaf 100 jf -17


Doesn't it seem weird that an air force as big as China's would only go for 100 of a jet like JF-17. I think it was just a token order that they decided against. They could afford to make their "base fighter" the J-10. @messiach said there was no clause for China to acquire any JF-17s. God knows what the true story is.


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## khanasifm

JamD said:


> Doesn't it seem weird that an air force as big as China's would only go for 100 of a jet like JF-17. I think it was just a token order that they decided against. They could afford to make their "base fighter" the J-10. @messiach said there was no clause for China to acquire any JF-17s. God knows what the true story is.



K-8 went same route it was paf and nanchang program and plaaf I think join way afterwards


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

JamD said:


> It's really hard to say whether or not PAF would go for FC-20E even if FGFA hits delays (which it probably will). IMHO they will not under most circumstances because we're poor and we're kind of planning for other things. It does not come as a surprise to me the JF-17 block 3 was (at least partially) spec-d based on the threat from Rafales. This is the best we can do with our limited resources. I think PAF will "brave it out" with JF-17 block 3 or 4 even in the case FGFA is delayed.
> 
> Also, it is quite obvious that the Ra'ad and our Mirage fleet will retire at the same time. That time being when there is a new nuclear capable ALCM capable of being carried by JF-17 and a SOW in the class of H2/H4. Both seem to be areas of active development (with only little pieces of news sneaking out here and there). I think PAF is focused more on replacing Ra'ad and H2/H4 instead of Mirages if you know what I mean. I kind of agree with this plan of action given the circumstances because I see no reason why the the JF-17 cannot perform the strike role (given the right systems). Especially given some rumors of CFTs for the JF-17.
> 
> 
> 
> I think it has a lot to do with China's size and Pakistan's size. We can do with a short-legged cheap jet that can do it all. The Chinese need bigger planes to cover more land mass and fly out to sea. They only flew J-7s out of compulsion and would much rather fly J-10s instead.


I can agree with that. It would be interesting if as an intermediary between the Block 3 and FGFA, the Block 4 tries emulating the Gripen E/F and F-16C/D more closely. In other words, a slightly enlarged, lighter airframe with a new engine (based on the RD-93 of course). 

In some cases, some parts of the FGFA -- e.g., engine (if Chinese), radar, avionics, etc -- come reach the JF-17 NG sooner. This way, you can rationalize a switch to a new variant since it'll have commonality with the future, albeit at the cost of breaking it with the past.

If the FGFA work takes place in Pakistan, the continued work on the JF-17 (and a 'JF-17 NG') can happen in China.

The constraint would be funding, but if the FGFA hits a snag, then slotting in a JF-17 NG could be an option -- instead of pouring money on an the FC-20E.

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## hassan1




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## messiach

PLAAF never showed interest to acquire FC1.



JamD said:


> Doesn't it seem weird that an air force as big as China's would only go for 100 of a jet like JF-17. I think it was just a token order that they decided against. They could afford to make their "base fighter" the J-10. @messiach said there was no clause for China to acquire any JF-17s. God knows what the true story is.

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## Windjammer



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## litman

ZedZeeshan said:


> It is superior to Block 52... Having AESA radar


there is a lot of difference between whats on paper and whats the reality. on paper su 30 has huge advantage over F-16 but on 27 feb they had no choice but to escape against even our MLUed falcons.


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## aliyusuf

litman said:


> there is a lot of difference between whats on paper and whats the reality. on paper su 30 has huge advantage over F-16 but on 27 feb they had no choice but to escape against even our MLUed falcons.


There are no two ways about it. AESA radar is superior to Mechanically Scanned radars. No matter how well made and dependable the latter is. AESA is technologically superior and belongs to a different generation. Build quality considerations don't factor into it. AESA are LPI radars with better range and Jam resistance features. 

The Su-30 MKI got undone by it's huge RCS and it's 90's technology Russian (PESA) radar and above all by the superiority of the AIM-120C-5 over the R-77.

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## litman

aliyusuf said:


> There are no two ways about it. AESA radar is superior to Mechanically Scanned radars. No matter how well made and dependable the latter is. AESA is technologically superior and belongs to a different generation. Build quality considerations don't factor into it. AESA are LPI radars with better range and Jam resistance features.
> 
> The Su-30 MKI got undone by it's huge RCS and it's 90's technology Russian (PESA) radar and above all by the superiority of the AIM-120C-5 over the R-77.


dear sirf radar he nahi hota air craft main.

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## Ultima Thule

litman said:


> dear sirf radar he nahi hota air craft main.


Its main sensor in jets bro, it can guide weapons/detect/track enemy its has ecm/eccm features etc etc

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## litman

seven0seven said:


> Its main sensor in jets bro, it can guide weapons/detect/track enemy its has ecm/eccm features etc etc


as per AM shahid latif they identified 50 areas in j 10 that needed improvement. during the musharaf era j 10 it appeared that j 1 is about to be inducted into paf very soon but still nothing on ground has materialized . we can speculate about some of the reasons. may be paf was not interested in j 10 and musharraf was forcing paf to induct the jet like other chinese systems but paf was not happy as these systems were not fulfilling paf requirements. ACM kaleem sadat mentioned about this disagreement with musharraf over the induction of chinese systems but remained silenced later on. we all can understand why he remained silenced. so j10 is either not suitable for paf requirements or we dont have any funds right now to induct any new platform.


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## Ultima Thule

litman said:


> as per AM shahid latif they identified 50 areas in j 10 that needed improvement. during the musharaf era j 10 it appeared that j 1 is about to be inducted into paf very soon but still nothing on ground has materialized . we can speculate about some of the reasons. may be paf was not interested in j 10 and musharraf was forcing paf to induct the jet like other chinese systems but paf was not happy as these systems were not fulfilling paf requirements. ACM kaleem sadat mentioned about this disagreement with musharraf over the induction of chinese systems but remained silenced later on. we all can understand why he remained silenced. so j10 is either not suitable for paf requirements or we dont have any funds right now to induct any new platform.


are you trolling???, i am answering to your above quote that there are other things in the jet other than radar, but radar is main sensor for fighter jets rest of the sensors/avionics are compliment ( add on) to radar

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## StormBreaker

seven0seven said:


> are you trolling???, i am answering to your above quote that there are other things in the jet other than radar, but radar is main sensor for fighter jets rest of the sensors/avionics are compliment ( add on) to radar


They are not any ‘less’ needed components rather are input sources for various situational awareness algorithms so these sensors are equally important...

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## Ultima Thule

StormBreaker said:


> They are not any ‘less’ needed components rather are input sources for various situational awareness algorithms so these sensors are equally important...


they interrelated with radar but radar is a main sensor for fighter jets

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## aliyusuf

litman said:


> dear sirf radar he nahi hota air craft main.


Brother, it is the primary sensor which gives a platform the see first shoot first capability.

After that the other plane will have to take defensive measures and hope to save itself. It's primary objectives will be rendered immaterial.

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## messiach

Funds are there. Thats why block3 is being introduced. We dont want fighter jet number 10,20,16,17 or 22, we want the fabtech backbone to drive an effective fleet. Part of that will come with Block3, part with NxGF. Thats where the money will go.



litman said:


> as per AM shahid latif they identified 50 areas in j 10 that needed improvement. during the musharaf era j 10 it appeared that j 1 is about to be inducted into paf very soon but still nothing on ground has materialized . we can speculate about some of the reasons. may be paf was not interested in j 10 and musharraf was forcing paf to induct the jet like other chinese systems but paf was not happy as these systems were not fulfilling paf requirements. ACM kaleem sadat mentioned about this disagreement with musharraf over the induction of chinese systems but remained silenced later on. we all can understand why he remained silenced. so j10 is either not suitable for paf requirements or we dont have any funds right now to induct any new platform.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

messiach said:


> Funds are there. Thats why block3 is being introduced. We dont want fighter jet number 10,20,16,17 or 22, we want the fabtech backbone to drive an effective fleet. Part of that will come with Block3, part with NxGF. Thats where the money will go.


Is the goal still turnkey manufacturing for the whole fighter, gas turbines and semi-conductors included? Or will that taper off a bit to sourcing some components from amenable suppliers (China)? Or is it a gradual thing where the indigenous % will grow with each tranche, e.g., foreign engines in the first tranche of NxGF, but local by the final tranche of NxGF?

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## Aamir Hussain

I think PAF want European Avionics and Radar/Sensors on block 3 and beyond and China is just not playing ball on this. 

Why PAF wants western avionics radars,and sensors, and not Chinese, your guess is as good as mine!!

I think with the Feb engagement, the understanding of how important is the role of EW/jamming & Targeting systems has grown tremendously, atleast among those who visit this forum. In the past it was all about speed and payload. 

I for one still think the achilles heel of JFT is the engine. All the rest can be figured out over time and integrated. This bit has not been resolved and until it does, it will always remain a sticking point when it comes to foreign sales.

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## Tank131

In Feb, PAF followed the USAF guidebook to successfully carry out its mission. It doesn't necessarily have to have the best jets flying in the theater (although for USAF it is true that it does), but the USAF depends on overwhelming electronic warefare to blins opponents while maintaining superior situational awareness via AWACS, datalinks and overall netcentric warfare and superior munitions. THAT is why on paper the MKI is superior to the F-16 blk 52 and MLUs but was forced to back off because it could see or get locks on Falcons while itself being targeted at great length.

We see that PAF will go for even more Erieye nowand will raise its AWAC fleet to 11 (5th most of any country) which will play huge roles both in EW and in maintaining situational awareness. The munitions superiority will be further augmented by the acquisition of PL-15 AND PL-10 for JF-17. The netcentric fighting is made possible by both Link-16 and Link-17 to enable that all fighters are linked to ground control and AWACs and can see what they see.

Block 3 with enhanced EW capabilities and AESE's resilience against jamming will further improve its capabilities. So it truly is a secondary thing if blk 3 falls slightly short to some IAF fighter or ther other. If the overall senario still pits PAF EW/situational control/netcentric approach against IAF relying solely on the capability of individual fighters or SAM types, the outcomes will likely be similar.

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## Raider 21

Aamir Hussain said:


> I think PAF want European Avionics and Radar/Sensors on block 3 and beyond and China is just not playing ball on this.
> 
> W*hy PAF wants western avionics radars,and sensors*, and not Chinese, your guess is as good as mine!!
> 
> I think with the Feb engagement, the understanding of how important is the role of EW/jamming & Targeting systems has grown tremendously, atleast among those who visit this forum. In the past it was all about speed and payload.
> 
> I for one still think the achilles heel of JFT is the engine. All the rest can be figured out over time and integrated. This bit has not been resolved and until it does, it will always remain a sticking point when it comes to foreign sales.


Never harmful to have the interoperability with existing platforms. Chinese avionics are still behind, no matter how good they look on the screen.



Tank131 said:


> In Feb, PAF followed the USAF guidebook to successfully carry out its mission. It doesn't necessarily have to have the best jets flying in the theater (*although for USAF it is true that it does*), but the USAF depends on overwhelming electronic warefare to blins opponents while maintaining superior situational awareness via AWACS, datalinks and overall netcentric warfare and superior munitions. THAT is why on paper the MKI is superior to the F-16 blk 52 and MLUs but was forced to back off because it could see or get locks on Falcons while itself being targeted at great length.
> 
> We see that PAF will go for even more Erieye nowand will raise its AWAC fleet to 11 (5th most of any country) which will play huge roles both in EW and in maintaining situational awareness. The munitions superiority will be further augmented by the acquisition of PL-15 AND PL-10 for JF-17. The netcentric fighting is made possible by both Link-16 and Link-17 to enable that all fighters are linked to ground control and AWACs and can see what they see.
> 
> Block 3 with enhanced EW capabilities and AESE's resilience against jamming will further improve its capabilities. So it truly is a secondary thing if blk 3 falls slightly short to some IAF fighter or ther other. If the overall senario still pits PAF EW/situational control/netcentric approach against IAF relying solely on the capability of individual fighters or SAM types, the outcomes will likely be similar.


Doesn't the USAF deploy whatever squadron by role, and not by the best jets ? F-16s have been doing a lot more missions than F-35s. Same goes for A-10s and F-15Es.


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## SABRE

Aamir Hussain said:


> *I think PAF want European Avionics and Radar/Sensors on block 3 and beyond and China is just not playing ball on this. *
> 
> Why PAF wants western avionics radars,and sensors, and not Chinese, your guess is as good as mine!!
> 
> I think with the Feb engagement, the understanding of how important is the role of EW/jamming & Targeting systems has grown tremendously, atleast among those who visit this forum. In the past it was all about speed and payload.
> 
> I for one still think the achilles heel of JFT is the engine. All the rest can be figured out over time and integrated. This bit has not been resolved and until it does, it will always remain a sticking point when it comes to foreign sales.



There might be this whole _military industrial complex (MIC)_ thing going on. It is not unheard of in Pakistan-China military relations. In fact, it might be more common than expected. Weapons acquisition bureaucracy and the end users in Pakistan logically prefers Western equipment and weapon systems and, in principle, China shouldn't be a hurdle in that, even if those equipment and weapon systems are to be incorporated on a joint venture platform. But the Chinese do appear to intervene, perhaps not out of malice but market competition. In the case of Pakistan, they always counter the Western market with cheaper alternatives and our arms acquisition bureaucracy ends up going for those items for reason that we can speculate based on MIC trends. But lets stick to cost-to-tech values f or now. Where the Western offers are based on _less for more_, the Chinese offers are based on _more for less_. i.e. you can't buy as many F-16s in the same budget cost as JF-17s, which now is now coming up with superior capabilities relative to Pakistani F-16s. Similarly, PN had an option of 3 to 4 U-214 submarines. But with the Chinese they got 8. But let's face the fact, the _more for less _factor does impinge on quality control. Chinese have made major breakthroughs and many of their technologies perform well in the India-Pakistan context but they still have lot of catching up to do with the Western/American technology. For this reason alone I believe PAF would still be willing to take up '_less for more_' option of F-16s (alongside JF-17s) if the opportunity is provided.


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## Tank131

Knuckles said:


> Doesn't the USAF deploy whatever squadron by role, and not by the best jets ? F-16s have been doing a lot more missions than F-35s. Same goes for A-10s and F-15Es.



Most squadrons have roles just like in other airforces, but has nothing to do with what i was saying. The USAF, whenever it goes into an operational theater, ensures air superiority, in large part by ensuring superiority in the electronic warfare arena.

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## Windjammer



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## MastanKhan

Hi,

Engine is not the problem with the JF17---being the central part of the aircraft---it is the only item that has provided stability to the aircraft. It is functional---it is utilitarian---it is reliable---it is serviceable easily---it is dependable---.

And it has a very quick spool up time---and this is something that no poster talks about---. Seems like none of them have any concept what that means.

If I have a say---I would rather have this engine on JF17 rather than another with more thrust but a slower spool up time.

From engine start to 5000 ft is the most critical time for any fighter aircraft---. The JF17 with the RD93 does it in a shorter time than any aircraft in the indian air force inventory---.

My aircraft is already up in the air ready to strike the at the enemy while the enemy is still on the ground floundering to take off---.

You guys never bring that out---maybe you don't have an understanding of what that means---.

This engine will not lose you battles---but win you some. Poor quality EW package will---pilots not on top of their game---inferior weaponry---.

For the moment we are assuming that the pilot /operator of the aircraft is not the issue---.

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## PakFactor

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Engine is not the problem with the JF17---being the central part of the aircraft---it is the only item that has provided stability to the aircraft. It is functional---it is utilitarian---it is reliable---it is serviceable easily---it is dependable---.
> 
> And it has a very quick spool up time---and this is something that no poster talks about---. Seems like none of them have any concept what that means.
> 
> If I have a say---I would rather have this engine on JF17 rather than another with more thrust but a slower spool up time.
> 
> From engine start to 5000 ft is the most critical time for any fighter aircraft---. The JF17 with the RD93 does it in a shorter time than any aircraft in the indian air force inventory---.
> 
> My aircraft is already up in the air ready to strike the at the enemy while the enemy is still on the ground floundering to take off---.
> 
> You guys never bring that out---maybe you don't have an understanding of what that means---.
> 
> This engine will not lose you battles---but win you some. Poor quality EW package will---pilots not on top of their game---inferior weaponry---.
> 
> For the moment we are assuming that the pilot /operator of the aircraft is not the issue---.



How capable is our EW Suite on JF-17 - and other thing these EW devices how are they tested - and how are they tested to see if they can for example fool the AMRAAM? I think unless China has some of Western equipment (weaponry) to test their own equipment how we know reliability - against Russian equipment China can easily test.

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## Ultima Thule

PakFactor said:


> How capable is our EW Suite on JF-17 - and other thing these EW devices how are they tested - and how are they tested to see if they can for example fool the AMRAAM? I think unless China has sames of Western equipment to test their own equipment on?


Block-2 has Spanish INDRA EW/ECM, better then Chinese EW system on block-1 bro


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## PakFactor

seven0seven said:


> Block-2 has Spanish INDRA EW/ECM, better then Chinese EW system on block-1 bro



Ok. I believe that's the same system the Spanish use on their F-18s if I'm not mistaken when they upgraded a few years back.


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## Ultima Thule

PakFactor said:


> Ok. I believe that's the same system the Spanish use on their F-18s if I'm not mistaken when they upgraded a few years back.


i don't know bro, ask to the senior members


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## HRK

PakFactor said:


> How capable is our EW Suite on JF-17 - and other thing these EW devices how are they tested - and how are they tested to see if they can for example fool the AMRAAM?







source: AINonline June-2019

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## Aamir Hussain

PakFactor said:


> Ok. I believe that's the same system the Spanish use on their F-18s if I'm not mistaken when they upgraded a few years back.


Those were ALQ-500 I believe


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## The Eagle

PAF CONDUCTS HAWK-EYE EXERCISE
Islamabad 29 November, 2019:-

Today, Pakistan Air Force has conducted a command level operation exercise with participation of all Operational Bases across the three Regional Commands. All types of PAF aircraft participated in the massive concurrent exercise to practice short-notice offensive employment concept involving fighter aircraft, force-multipliers and Special Forces. The concept validates PAF’s options for offensive employment of its various capabilities.

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## air marshal



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

air marshal said:


>


Happy to see PAF resorting back to its offensive posturing as it used to do once upon a time.

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## StormBreaker

Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> *This is Massive!!!*
> 
> What is the messaging?
> 
> Regardless, PAF must remain second to none!
> 
> It is commanded to be so by *Qaid e Azam*... good going!!!


On an unbiased scale and opinion, tbh, Thunder really looks more beautiful than F-16 from this view angle, the glass color, fatter nose.

Why does the F-16 lack Pak flag?

Ohh, i was yawning while the video started and suddenly my yawn paused when i saw 19-258 tail. Like, have any pic yet appeared of a 19 batch? And the IFR probe

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## StormBreaker

Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> *JF17 *is the *seed*, granddaddy of Aviation Industry and all future *PakFighters*...
> 
> This little *IronFalcon *is evolving year by year... surprise after surprise...
> 
> Have no idea about PakFlag not being on F sola!


Ohh man !!! The sudden spirit boost, after watching this video, load ‘em up with PL-15 and AESA, CHECKMATE *MKI* !!!

Bring in your Rafales, make sure your pilots don’t piss unnecessarily !!!!

The beauty Of PAF is not in numbers but in complex planning, with more focus on situational awareness and EW/Jamming. Our fleet of AWACS planes is our pride and that is what ultimately downplays the IAF. Link 16, 17 are the pride of our Software engineers, one of the best skills of Pakistanis (soft dev) and they used it wisely.

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## aliyusuf

@Mangus Ortus Novem
@StormBreaker

Also, please add to above mix ... the L.O.A.L. capabilities of the PAF's AEW&C platforms utilizing the Link-17 TDL.

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## StormBreaker

aliyusuf said:


> @Mangus Ortus Novem
> @StormBreaker
> 
> Also, please add to above mix ... the L.O.A.L. capabilities of the PAF's AEW&C platforms utilizing the Link-17 TDL.


Isn’t L.O.A.L like 60+% more of a hardware thingy rather Link 17 ?

We do need a HMS to utilize LOAL at it’s best. Probability of CAW between IAF and PAF are very high due to being next to each other. Not taking into account, extreme BVR environment, HMS really needs to materialize soon. Good for marketing as well. Don’t know where PAF is heading for that tech since Chinese J-20 HMS is not quite upto JHCMS standards as per various reviews.

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## nomi007

The IAF Tetris Challenge






Hope PAF will also test their skill like this

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## StormBreaker

nomi007 said:


> The IAF Tetris Challenge
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hope PAF will also test their skill like this


*coughs* WTF is this

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## aliyusuf

StormBreaker said:


> Isn’t L.O.A.L like 60+% more of a hardware thingy rather Link 17 ?
> 
> We do need a HMS to utilize LOAL at it’s best. Probability of CAW between IAF and PAF are very high due to being next to each other. Not taking into account, extreme BVR environment, HMS really needs to materialize soon. Good for marketing as well. Don’t know where PAF is heading for that tech since Chinese J-20 HMS is not quite upto JHCMS standards as per various reviews.


L.O.A.L. is primarily based on TDL. Since we use our own TDL i.e. why it is based on Link-17. 
The Lock-On-After-Launch capability is the AWACS or any other fighter in TDL network taking control of the launched BVRAAM missile from the original launch fighter and provide it the necessary mid-flight update till the on board active seeker of the missile kicks-in. 

This allows for ...

1) A fighter, with it's radar switched off, to launch a missile with the help of a buddy fighter or a AWACS in the network.
2) A fighter launch a long range missile from a range longer than the fighter's radar can see.
3) Guiding long range air-to-ground or air-to-sea munitions.

A nice article from QUWA on the subject.

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## StormBreaker

aliyusuf said:


> L.O.A.L. is primarily based on TDL. Since we use our own TDL i.e. why it is based on Link-17.
> The Lock-On-After-Launch capability is the AWACS or any other fighter in TDL network taking control of the launched BVRAAM missile from the original launch fighter and provide it the necessary mid-flight update till the on board active seeker of the missile kicks-in.
> 
> This allows for ...
> 
> 1) A fighter, with it's radar switched off, to launch a missile with the help of a buddy fighter or a AWACS in the network.
> 2) A fighter launch a long range missile from a range longer than the fighter's radar can see.
> 3) Guiding long range air-to-ground or air-to-sea munitions.
> 
> A nice article from QUWA on the subject.


But that requires a homing and active seeker AAM right?


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## aliyusuf

StormBreaker said:


> But that requires a homing and active seeker AAM right?


I only used that example. It can work with SARH BVRAAM as well.

But it yields best jamming resistant results with munitions having data link feature as well ... like SD-10 and PL-15 etc.

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## PakFactor

Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> *JF17 *is the *seed*, granddaddy of Aviation Industry and all future *PakFighters*...
> 
> This little *IronFalcon *is evolving year by year... surprise after surprise...
> 
> Have no idea about PakFlag not being on F sola!



Yeah baby love the name Iron Falcon.

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## StormBreaker

PakFactor said:


> Yeah baby love the name Iron Falcon.


Hamare Mangus bhai koi shayar se kam nai hain bhai.

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## MastanKhan

Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> *JF17 *is the *seed*, granddaddy of Aviation Industry and all future *PakFighters*...
> 
> This little *IronFalcon *is evolving year by year... surprise after surprise...
> 
> Have no idea about PakFlag not being on F sola!



Hi,

Thank you---. An excellent name---.

The BLK 3 should be named IRON FALCON---.

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## StormBreaker

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thank you---. An excellent name---.
> 
> The BLK 3 should be named IRON FALCON---.


@The Eagle , if it’s possible for you, we would love you to suggest ‘Iron Falcon’ name to PAF and PAC specifically for Block 3. Just like Hornet and Super Hornet

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## MastanKhan

StormBreaker said:


> @The Eagle , if it’s possible for you, we would love you to suggest ‘Iron Falcon’ name to PAF and PAC specifically for Block 3. Just like Hornet and Super Hornet



And acknowledge our dear colleague @Mangus Ortus Novem for that name---.

Thank you.

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## StormBreaker

MastanKhan said:


> And acknowledge our dear colleague @Mangus Ortus Novem for that name---.
> 
> Thank you.


Dear is a small word for him, creative, beauty he is.

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## MastanKhan

StormBreaker said:


> Dear is a small word for him, creative, beauty he is.





Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> @MastanKhan @StormBreaker
> 
> My very dear Paks,
> 
> 
> We need to position our products with global benchmarks... an aspect we have been lacking due varrying reasons...
> 
> *BlockIII* is becoming quite a bird... and deserves rightful recognition... by merely calling it *Thunder B3 *doesn't do justice...
> 
> I do strongly believe that subliminally products sell not only because of quality... Anyhow, even if no one calls B3 *IronFalcon *... we shall...
> 
> And when B4 pops up... we shall allot it proper title.
> 
> Imagine calling dual seater JF17B or Calling it JF17 *SnowLeopard *or something more inducing...
> 
> Regardless, you both are trying to humble this nobody... duely noted. *Allow me to thankyou!*
> 
> Mangus



Hi,

Thank you----. Basic of sales pitch is---to give a product an individual identity---a similar but a different product has to have a different name to separate it from the HERD and position it by itself on its own merits capabilities and capabilities---.

It must be known targeted and appreciated by its own name---.

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## Avicenna

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thank you----. Basic of sales pitch is---to give a product an individual identity---a similar but a different product has to have a different name to separate it from the HERD and position it by itself on its own merits capabilities and capabilities---.
> 
> It must be known targeted and appreciated by its own name---.



Style as well as substance.

Take a page from Western marketing.

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## StormBreaker

Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> @MastanKhan @StormBreaker
> 
> My very dear Paks,
> 
> 
> We need to position our products with global benchmarks... an aspect we have been lacking due varrying reasons...
> 
> *BlockIII* is becoming quite a bird... and deserves rightful recognition... by merely calling it *Thunder B3 *doesn't do justice...
> 
> I do strongly believe that subliminally products sell not only because of quality... Anyhow, even if no one calls B3 *IronFalcon *... we shall...
> 
> And when B4 pops up... we shall allot it proper title.
> 
> Imagine calling dual seater JF17B or Calling it JF17 *SnowLeopard *or something more inducing...
> 
> Regardless, you both are trying to humble this nobody... duely noted. *Allow me to thankyou!*
> 
> Mangus


There is this deceased singer boy, 20, killed last year, known as xxxtentacion while having real name as Ricardo. No one knows the name, mostly he is recognized by Xxxtentacion. If just we pdfians start calling them with these names, it won’t be long before officials also hear the stories of ‘How a fandom calls it directly Iron Falcon’, perhaps themselves start using the name.

@HRK @MastanKhan @The Eagle @Mangus Ortus Novem @Windjammer @aliyusuf @Signalian @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Bilal Khan 777 @DESERT FIGHTER @Musafir117 @Retired Troll @HAIDER

How about let’s start referring to Block 3 as _*Iron Falcon*_ in every conversation...

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## Ultima Thule

StormBreaker said:


> _*Iron Falcon*_


Iron Thunder would be more nice

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## StormBreaker

seven0seven said:


> Iron Thunder would be more nice


Didn’t make sense tho


----------



## Ultima Thule

StormBreaker said:


> Didn’t make sense tho


Falcon is the nickname of F-16, that's not fits the bill bro

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## HRK

StormBreaker said:


> There is this deceased singer boy, 20, killed last year, known as xxxtentacion while having real name as Ricardo. No one knows the name, mostly he is recognized by Xxxtentacion. If just we pdfians start calling them with these names, it won’t be long before officials also hear the stories of ‘How a fandom calls it directly Iron Falcon’, perhaps themselves start using the name.
> 
> @HRK @MastanKhan @The Eagle @Mangus Ortus Novem @Windjammer @aliyusuf @Signalian @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Bilal Khan 777 @DESERT FIGHTER @Musafir117 @Retired Troll @HAIDER
> 
> How about let’s start referring to Block 3 as _*Iron Falcon*_ in every conversation...



Chinese online community already call JF-17 as 'Fierce Dragon' so its upto Pakistani online community to term blk-III if they want another unofficial name .....

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## MastanKhan

Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> @MastanKhan @StormBreaker
> 
> My very dear Paks,
> 
> 
> We need to position our products with global benchmarks... an aspect we have been lacking due varrying reasons...
> 
> *BlockIII* is becoming quite a bird... and deserves rightful recognition... by merely calling it *Thunder B3 *doesn't do justice...
> 
> I do strongly believe that subliminally products sell not only because of quality... Anyhow, even if no one calls B3 *IronFalcon *... we shall...
> 
> And when B4 pops up... we shall allot it proper title.
> 
> Imagine calling dual seater JF17B or Calling it JF17 *SnowLeopard *or something more inducing...
> 
> Regardless, you both are trying to humble this nobody... duely noted. *Allow me to thankyou!*
> 
> Mangus



Hi,

The 2 seater is basically going to be a strike aircraft---so Keeping in mind @Mangus Ortus Novem --- appropriate name could be *STRIKE FALCON*

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## StormBreaker

seven0seven said:


> Falcon is the nickname of F-16, that's not fits the bill bro


But F-7s are also called mini falcons


----------



## StormBreaker

Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> Brilliant! MK totally spot on!!!
> 
> Henceforth, *JF17B *is *StrikeFalcon*!
> 
> *B3 is IronFalcon*
> 
> Now we are on some evolutional plain... great going!
> 
> Mangus


Thunder SF
THUNDER IF


----------



## Ultima Thule

StormBreaker said:


> But F-7s are also called mini falcons


i didn't hear that



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The 2 seater is basically going to be a strike aircraft---so Keeping in mind @Mangus Ortus Novem --- appropriate name could be *STRIKE FALCON*





Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> Brilliant! MK totally spot on!!!
> 
> Henceforth, *JF17B *is *StrikeFalcon*!
> 
> *B3 is IronFalcon*
> 
> Now we are on some evolutional plain... great going!
> Mangus


I don't like that nickname, Falcon is nickname of F-16, it would be nice say Strike Thunder for JF-17B and Iron Thunder for Block-3

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## mingle

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thank you---. An excellent name---.
> 
> The BLK 3 should be named IRON FALCON---.


How about lndus falcon

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## Ultima Thule

mingle said:


> How about lndus falcon


on the spot sir or Indus Thunder would also be nice

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> @MastanKhan @StormBreaker
> 
> My very dear Paks,
> 
> 
> We need to position our products with global benchmarks... an aspect we have been lacking due varrying reasons...
> 
> *BlockIII* is becoming quite a bird... and deserves rightful recognition... by merely calling it *Thunder B3 *doesn't do justice...
> 
> I do strongly believe that subliminally products sell not only because of quality... Anyhow, even if no one calls B3 *IronFalcon *... we shall...
> 
> And when B4 pops up... we shall allot it proper title.
> 
> Imagine calling dual seater JF17B or Calling it JF17 *SnowLeopard *or something more inducing...
> 
> Regardless, you both are trying to humble this nobody... duely noted. *Allow me to thankyou!*
> 
> Mangus


If renaming is on the cards, then I suggest "Saker" (after the saker falcon).

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## mingle

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> If renaming is on the cards, then I suggest "Saker" (after the saker falcon).


Indus will look better due to Mighty Indus River and Pakistan civilization drived from river Indus


----------



## StormBreaker

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> If renaming is on the cards, then I suggest "Saker" (after the saker falcon).


SAEGAH 



mingle said:


> Indus will look better due to Mighty Indus River and Pakistan civilization drived from river Indus


Ya, appreciated but the word ‘Indus’ itself appears less appealing due to its rhyme with industry. So something else would be better...

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

mingle said:


> Indus will look better due to Mighty Indus River and Pakistan civilization drived from river Indus


I'd keep "Indus" for a hypothetical company dedicated to making air-to-air, surface-to-air and air-to-surface weapons... Indus Munitions Company (IMC)

boi I Kno how 2 brand...

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## StormBreaker

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I'd keep "Indus" for a hypothetical company dedicated to making air-to-air, surface-to-air and air-to-surface weapons... Indus Munitions Company (IMC)...boi I Kno how 2 brand.


That’s more like it, similar to my review on Indus Falcon. Saker isn’t a bad idea either BUT due to the fact that the word isn’t english, would make it appear less appealing due to the simple fact that ALL of the might jets in this world have english titles even J-20 or J-31.

Anything less will give iran vibes which already are “Derh inch ki masjid”

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## mingle

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I'd keep "Indus" for a hypothetical company dedicated to making air-to-air, surface-to-air and air-to-surface weapons... Indus Munitions Company (IMC)
> 
> boi I Kno how 2 brand...


Ok guess a name plz no Mideast proper local Pak name how Mola Juttt or Sultan Rahi Gandasa??

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

mingle said:


> Ok guess a name plz no Mideast proper local Pak name how Mola Juttt or Sultan Rahi Gandasa??


We use Uqab in Urdu too, just as we use Farsi, Hindustani, etc. We should keep them all and assert ourselves as a tri-regional power, a bridge between civilizations and a natural leader. No need to run into a cave and sit in the dark -- own it, own it all.

Here are some other ideas...

Khyber Heavy Vehicles (KHV)
Baluchistan Engine Systems Production Agency (BESPA)
Ghandhara Engineering Organization (GEO)

Seriously, give me 2 hrs and I can create a marketing framework for Pakistan's defence industry. Literally, I can sell hot air and maybe bring in some billions in foreign exchange.

Sometimes, you've got to rely on words and messaging to bring fuel to a real project, otherwise you'll have people perpetually believe the JF-17 is a MiG-21, or some other nonsense. Had it been up to me, people would call the JF-17 a "grittier Gripen, but more affordable." 

Uncles in charge neither have any idea of marketing nor an appreciation for it, hence the reason why "EDGE Group" in UAE is taking us to the woodshed at exhibitions.

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## mingle

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> We use Uqab in Urdu too, just as we use Farsi, Hindustani, etc. We should keep them all and assert ourselves as a tri-regional power, a bridge between civilizations and a natural leader. No need to run into a cave and sit in the dark -- own it, own it all.
> 
> Here are some other ideas...
> 
> Khyber Heavy Vehicles (KHV)
> Baluchistan Engine Systems Production Agency (BESPA)
> Ghandhara Engineering Organization (GEO)
> 
> Seriously, give me 2 hrs and I can create a marketing framework for Pakistan's defence industry. Literally, I can sell hot air and maybe bring in some billions in foreign exchange.
> 
> Sometimes, you've got to rely on words and messaging to bring fuel to a real project, otherwise you'll have people perpetually believe the JF-17 is a MiG-21, or some other nonsense. Had it been up to me, people would call the JF-17 a "grittier Gripen, but more affordable."
> 
> Uncles in charge neither have any idea of marketing nor an appreciation for it, hence the reason why "EDGE Group" in UAE is taking us to the woodshed at exhibitions.


Jeera blade will be good one too, cheeda pistol



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> We use Uqab in Urdu too, just as we use Farsi, Hindustani, etc. We should keep them all and assert ourselves as a tri-regional power, a bridge between civilizations and a natural leader. No need to run into a cave and sit in the dark -- own it, own it all.
> 
> Here are some other ideas...
> 
> Khyber Heavy Vehicles (KHV)
> Baluchistan Engine Systems Production Agency (BESPA)
> Ghandhara Engineering Organization (GEO)
> 
> Seriously, give me 2 hrs and I can create a marketing framework for Pakistan's defence industry. Literally, I can sell hot air and maybe bring in some billions in foreign exchange.
> 
> Sometimes, you've got to rely on words and messaging to bring fuel to a real project, otherwise you'll have people perpetually believe the JF-17 is a MiG-21, or some other nonsense. Had it been up to me, people would call the JF-17 a "grittier Gripen, but more affordable."
> 
> Uncles in charge neither have any idea of marketing nor an appreciation for it, hence the reason why "EDGE Group" in UAE is taking us to the woodshed at exhibitions.


Reason I like Indus? When U call it first thing strike in Ur mind is Pakistan very unique we use to have exercise Name Indus Vipers remember??

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

mingle said:


> Jeera blade will be good one too, cheeda pistol
> 
> 
> Reason I like Indus? When U call it first thing strike in Ur mind is Pakistan very unique we use to have exercise Name Indus Vipers remember??


IMO places (e.g., Indus, Ghandara, etc) should be associated with organizations, while animals with aircraft or other vehicles, and classical weapons (e.g. lances, swords, daggers, etc) with missiles. 

Plus when naming a platform, you should aim to keep it to one word, unless the preceding word is something like "super" (e.g., Super Hornet, Silent Eagle, etc). 

So, 'Indus Falcon' sounds more like an event than a system. If you want to retain our culture, then use a local word for an animal for the JF-17. "Baaz" can work, e.g., "jay eff satra baaz" rolls off the tongue.

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## The Eagle

Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> @MastanKhan @StormBreaker
> 
> My very dear Paks,
> 
> 
> We need to position our products with global benchmarks... an aspect we have been lacking due varrying reasons...
> 
> *BlockIII* is becoming quite a bird... and deserves rightful recognition... by merely calling it *Thunder B3 *doesn't do justice...
> 
> I do strongly believe that subliminally products sell not only because of quality... Anyhow, even if no one calls B3 *IronFalcon *... we shall...
> 
> And when B4 pops up... we shall allot it proper title.
> 
> Imagine calling dual seater JF17B or Calling it JF17 *SnowLeopard *or something more inducing...
> 
> Regardless, you both are trying to humble this nobody... duely noted. *Allow me to thankyou!*
> 
> Mangus



Let the Phoenix rise from ashes at once; it will mark its name in the hearts of enemies & the name will be there as what you suggest is brilliant as well.

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## khanasifm

Another view on stealth 






__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1457664024371460

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## Talon

Shooter squadron different from Sharp Shooters,some people here including @Windjammer had doubts @khanasifm

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## Windjammer

Hodor said:


> Shooter squadron different from Sharp Shooters,some people here including @Windjammer had doubts @khanasifm
> 
> View attachment 592173
> View attachment 592174


Thank you sir, I'm the one who approved this video to be posted on a certain site.

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## khanasifm

Hodor said:


> Shooter squadron different from Sharp Shooters,some people here including @Windjammer had doubts @khanasifm
> 
> View attachment 592173
> View attachment 592174



It was stated on the raising day of this sqn that it’s a temparary sqn. It’s role is LIFT sqn and mostly made up of older f-7ps till all hours are utilized on the airframe 

Also paf ft-7s were getting slep to add another 200 hours past useful life to keep ft-7p

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## Talon

khanasifm said:


> It was stated on the raising day of this sqn that it’s a temparary sqn. It’s role is LIFT sqn and mostly made up of older f-7ps till all hours are utilized on the airframe
> 
> Also paf ft-7s were getting slep to add another 200 hours past useful life to keep ft-7p


Yep acquired from 14 sqn,I have met the OC of this sqn but @Windjammer wouldn't believe me that it's a separate from No. 18.Hope this isn't the case now.

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## GriffinsRule

Hodor said:


> Shooter squadron different from Sharp Shooters,some people here including @Windjammer had doubts @khanasifm
> 
> View attachment 592173
> View attachment 592174


Bald Eagles in Pakistan??


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## Windjammer

Hodor said:


> Yep acquired from 14 sqn,I have met the OC of this sqn but @Windjammer wouldn't believe me that it's a separate from No. 18.Hope this isn't the case now.


‘Shooter Squadron’ is an innovative idea of establishing *a temporary flying squadron* which would serve as a lead in fighter training. It would provide ample opportunities to the young pilots to polish their flying skills and bridging the gap between low-tech and medium tech aircraft. Training at this squadron would give the future air warriors enough confidence to ultimately undergo their conversions on state of the art F-16 and JF-17 Thunder aircraft.


----------



## Windjammer

F-16 and Poorman's F-16.

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## GriffinsRule

Windjammer said:


> ‘Shooter Squadron’ is an innovative idea of establishing *a temporary flying squadron* which would serve as a lead in fighter training. It would provide ample opportunities to the young pilots to polish their flying skills and bridging the gap between low-tech and medium tech aircraft. Training at this squadron would give the future air warriors enough confidence to ultimately undergo their conversions on state of the art F-16 and JF-17 Thunder aircraft.


So they have Mirages and F-7s in this temporary squadron?


----------



## khanasifm

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/air-chief-inaugurates-shooter-squadron-at-paf-base-m-m-alam.538684/


----------



## Raider 21

Hodor said:


> Yep acquired from 14 sqn,I have met the OC of this sqn but @Windjammer wouldn't believe me that it's a separate from No. 18.Hope this isn't the case now.


And the previous No.19 and No.18 squadron aircraft.


----------



## ghazi52

Sitting- Group Captain (later Air Commodore) M. Zafar Masud. Sep 1965

One of the PAF’s most courageous leaders Air Commodore Mohammad Zafar Masud HJ, SBt, ( 1923 – October 7, 2003 }; widely knew as Mitty Masud,

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## ghazi52



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## The Eagle

DG ISPR: COAS & CAS visited PAF Base Mushaf. COAS was flown in an F-16. CAS flew in another F-16 & both aircraft proceeded to maneuver for a combat action simulation mission. 
COAS lauded professionalism & dedication of PAF & thanked the Force for its unmatched services to the nation.
Air Chief thanked Army Chief for his visit. Both underlined the need for continued and enhanced interaction between the services in training and operations.

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## mingle

The Eagle said:


> DG ISPR: COAS & CAS visited PAF Base Mushaf. COAS was flown in an F-16. CAS flew in another F-16 & both aircraft proceeded to maneuver for a combat action simulation mission.
> COAS lauded professionalism & dedication of PAF & thanked the Force for its unmatched services to the nation.
> Air Chief thanked Army Chief for his visit. Both underlined the need for continued and enhanced interaction between the services in training and operations.
> View attachment 592321
> View attachment 592322


F16s are coming both old and news looks like @Khafee leaks going to correct soon.

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## Silicon0000

mingle said:


> F16s are coming both old and news looks like @Khafee leaks going to correct soon.



Not again


----------



## mingle

Silicon0000 said:


> Not again


Yes yes we going for more F16s very likely PAF is satisfied with end user terms.

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## Amigator

Can anyone plz tell me what this C130 is doing in ISB. Mujhe to lag raha hai k gol gol chakar laga k running pori ker raha hai

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## nomi007

Amigator said:


> Can anyone plz tell me what this C130 is doing in ISB. Mujhe to lag raha hai k gol gol chakar laga k running pori ker raha hai
> View attachment 592469


Routine exercise


----------



## denel

mingle said:


> F16s are coming both old and news looks like @Khafee leaks going to correct soon.


please let us not get this started again.

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## mingle

denel said:


> please let us not get this started again.


It's not a joy ride very unusual and again going Mushaf base and fly F16 s kamara is more close to islamabad than sargodha.last time Airforce used army's fund for used Jordanian F16s I feel same thing gonna happen again.


----------



## Myth_buster_1

Amigator said:


> Can anyone plz tell me what this C130 is doing in ISB. Mujhe to lag raha hai k gol gol chakar laga k running pori ker raha hai
> View attachment 592469


New pilot training.


----------



## khanasifm

Myth_buster_1 said:


> New pilot training.



Navigation error stuck in pattern/circles


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## HRK

mingle said:


> last time Airforce used army's fund for used Jordanian F16s


not just Jordanian F-16s but for blk-52+ as well .... Army at the time when PAF was facing difficulty to pay for those F-16 blk-52+ had given its 5 years development budget to PAF during Zardari era ...

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## mingle

HRK said:


> not just Jordanian F-16s but for blk-52+ as well .... Army at the time when PAF was facing difficulty to pay for those F-16 blk-52+ had given its 5 years development budget to PAF during Zardari era ...


If there is chance PAF should buy Norwegian F16 package 28 planes in total but Norway wants all 28 to one customer


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## HRK

mingle said:


> If there is chance PAF should buy Norwegian F16 package 28 planes in total but Norway wants all 28 to one customer


seems difficult

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

IMHO...if the PAF could have really gotten used F-16s, it would've done so. Even with 1000 hours left it would've found a role for such birds if it meant making the Indian media say, "...and Pakistan has 150 of these F-16s." Paper numbers have value too. The fact that the PAF hasn't tells me the US is blocking them.

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## mingle

HRK said:


> seems difficult


No not at all US Pak realtions are Good now plus Afghan peace process is back on track again there are 15 trade delegations are coming to Pak from US next year


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## HRK

mingle said:


> No not at all US Pak realtions are Good now plus Afghan peace process is back on track again there are 15 trade delegations are coming to Pak from US next year


even then it seem difficult not just because of US factor but due to many other factors even Norway itself might try to avoid such transaction with Pakistan

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## mingle

HRK said:


> even then it seem difficult not just because of US factor but due to many other factors even Norway itself might try to avoid such transaction with Pakistan


Agree but they are for sale and at storage but Norway wants to sell whole 28 to one customer not in fractions. Also Jordan has around 28 to 30 at storage they want to get rid too. I see no issue but this Bajwa trip shows Army might help PAF.

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## ziaulislam

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IMHO...if the PAF could have really gotten used F-16s, it would've done so. Even with 1000 hours left it would've found a role for such birds if it meant making the Indian media say, "...and Pakistan has 150 of these F-16s." Paper numbers have value too. The fact that the PAF hasn't tells me the US is blocking them.


Already on record pakistan foreign minister stated that jordianan f16 were blocked so this is no secret



mingle said:


> No not at all US Pak realtions are Good now plus Afghan peace process is back on track again there are 15 trade delegations are coming to Pak from US next year


Afghan peace is now off track...it wont come up before 202 elections

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## mingle

ziaulislam said:


> Already on record pakistan foreign minister stated that jordianan f16 were blocked so this is no secret
> 
> 
> Afghan peace is now off track...it wont come up before 202 elections


Trump just announced fews days back at Afghanistan plus US assisting talibans against ISIS khurasan according to Khalilzad. Trade delegations are coming pak no doubt F16s will come from US as well US won't let pie to go Russia and China or EU will keep theior share of it.


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## Falcon26

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IMHO...if the PAF could have really gotten used F-16s, it would've done so. Even with 1000 hours left it would've found a role for such birds if it meant making the Indian media say, "...and Pakistan has 150 of these F-16s." Paper numbers have value too. The fact that the PAF hasn't tells me the US is blocking them.



the last Pakistani FM at one of the DC think tanks mentioned the Jordanian F-16s were blocked. If they are, other pipelines must be closed too. But with the upswing in relations, Pakistan has a very tight window to make some moves.

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## hassan1



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## hassan1



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## Windjammer

An interesting conversation between an Indian (Boney) and a thumping reply from a white female. (Bea).


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1202195902376448005

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1202346261279657984

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## PakFactor

Windjammer said:


> An interesting conversation between an Indian (Boney) and a thumping reply from a white female. (Bea).
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1202195902376448005
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1202346261279657984



Ouch. She struck right in the jaw. Lol

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## Ali_Baba

Windjammer said:


> An interesting conversation between an Indian (Boney) and a thumping reply from a white female. (Bea).
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1202195902376448005
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1202346261279657984



Oh boy, did she do a surgical strike on his *** or what !!!!! No messing around, hit the bulls eye on that one!!!!!

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## MastanKhan

Ali_Baba said:


> Oh boy, did she do a surgical strike on his *** or what !!!!! No messing around, hit the bulls eye on that one!!!!!



If King Gustaf himself is trying to market it to the indians, that is absolutely shameless and disgusting.

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## mingle

MastanKhan said:


> If King Gustaf himself is trying to market it to the indians, that is absolutely shameless and disgusting.


I agree with you also shows how desperate sweds are

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## fatman17

It's rumored 1st prototype of JF-17 Block Ⅲ has appeared. https://t.co/E9gjlCDdty


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## fatman17

fatman17 said:


> It's rumored 1st prototype of JF-17 Block Ⅲ has appeared. https://t.co/E9gjlCDdty


The design drawings of JF-17 Block Ⅲ electromechanical system were distributed to the factory in Nov 2018. If everything goes smoothly, 1st prototype would be ready by the end of this year. https://t.co/aOuAJCz1A1


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## Syed1.

fatman17 said:


> The design drawings of JF-17 Block Ⅲ electromechanical system were distributed to the factory in Nov 2018. If everything goes smoothly, 1st prototype would be ready by the end of this year. https://t.co/aOuAJCz1A1


Bhai meray this tweet is from Feb.

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## Windjammer

The PAF Police get the road version of F-16.

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## GriffinsRule

Windjammer said:


> The PAF Police get the road version of F-16.
> 
> View attachment 593149
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 593151


That seems like a waste of funds to me

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## MastanKhan

Windjammer said:


> The PAF Police get the road version of F-16.
> 
> View attachment 593149
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 593151



Hi,

If true---then it is a horrific offence against the nation---.

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## Syed1.

Can anybody explain to me the purpose of "Airforce Police" and why does this vehicle not have a registered number plate?


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## khanasifm

Syed1. said:


> Can anybody explain to me the purpose of "Airforce Police" and why does this vehicle not have a registered number plate?



It has MIL registration number 28201

May be one or two acquired for senior provost Marshall ?? Not ordinary patrol vehicular but bullet proof for marshal


----------



## fatman17

Also interesting, since it is different to the one used on the PAF's JF-17. https://t.co/6T6qlV2MKw

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## Maxpane

fatman17 said:


> Also interesting, since it is different to the one used on the PAF's JF-17. https://t.co/6T6qlV2MKw
> View attachment 593204


sir its jf 17 B?


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## fatman17

Maxpane said:


> sir its jf 17 B?


I was referring to the bomb racks


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## Maxpane

fatman17 said:


> I was referring to the bomb racks


ohh sorry yep its different

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## Adam_Khan

Windjammer said:


> The PAF Police get the road version of F-16.
> 
> View attachment 593149
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 593151



Clearly says airforce police,if they haven't been given for free then it's a big waste of resources.

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## Ultima Thule

Adam_Khan said:


> Clearly says airforce police,if they haven't been given for free then it's a big waste of resources.


this is cute sarcasm/joke by @Windjammer bro


----------



## RAMPAGE

@messiach 

Do you think it would be prudent and possible for PAC to design and develop a replacement for our C130 fleet in the near future?

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## StormBreaker

RAMPAGE said:


> @messiach
> 
> Do you think it would be prudent and possible for PAC to design and develop a replacement for our C130 fleet in the near future?


No, simply not worth the money, time and investment just to procure some units and no export potential.


----------



## messiach

RAMPAGE said:


> @messiach
> Do you think it would be prudent and possible for PAC to design and develop a replacement for our C130 fleet in the near future?



Most certainly a turboprop hexa or quad stage turbine is much simpler to build. This is quite possible & we have some of the experise for that.

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## Tank131

messiach said:


> Most certainly a turboprop hexa or quad stage turbine is much simpler to build. This is quite possible & we have some of the experise for that.


Maam, why undertake such an endeavor when you can either get more C-130 or more likely Y-9 is available? The Y-9 has better numbers (payload capacity and range) than C-130 and is cheaper. It is likley to be more cost effective than building an aircraft from scratch.

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## RAMPAGE

messiach said:


> Most certainly a turboprop hexa or quad stage turbine is much simpler to build. This is quite possible & we have some of the experise for that.


I was referring to a replacement for the aircraft itself, not merely the engine. Is it possible or desirable to create something like the Embraer KC390 - be it a turboprop or a turbofan aircraft?



Tank131 said:


> Maam, why undertake such an endeavor when you can either get more C-130 or more likely Y-9 is available? The Y-9 has better numbers (payload capacity and range) than C-130 and is cheaper. It is likley to be more cost effective than building an aircraft from scratch.


This is precisely the disastrous thinking that has kept us from developing industry in Pakistan. Yes, it will be cheaper to import am off-the-shelf product, but it will lead to an economy utterly unable to compete with the rest of the world and with the additional deficit of economic production and trade imbalance. Is it cheaper for the consumer to buy a Japanese car? Yes, but it is absolutely crippling for an economy like ours to import such machinery instead of producing our own. Now you will probably say that our demand for cars does not compare to that of transport aircraft, and therefore my argument is incorrect. I would like to remind you that the industrial capacity produced by such projects is precisely what will lead to a decreased dependence on imported machinery that has destroyed our economy.

@messiach @Oscar

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

RAMPAGE said:


> I was referring to a replacement for the aircraft itself, not merely the engine. Is it possible or desirable to create something like the Embraer KC390 - be it a turboprop or a turbofan aircraft?


The PAF's requirements won't generate enough economies-of-scale to support such a program. So, for example, the KC-390's development costs are apparently around $2 billion US (in 2014, so a little higher today due to inflation). They're banking on export to help recoup those costs, otherwise, it's a massive expense (before the first plane).

The next best thing the PAF can do is partner with someone else and share the R&D costs while also combining orders to push economies-of-scale.

So, in this case, you could speak to Turkey or Ukraine on a joint-venture, ideally using a platform that is already working, and then upgrading it. This is what Turkey is doing by backing the An-188 (i.e., jet-powered An-70).

Perhaps the PAF could look at doing something similar, but with an upgraded propfan-powered An-70 (e.g., An-77) meant for hot-and-high conditions?

If not this, then you buy a new solution that's available for sale, like the KC-390, but in-exchange for being the top or 2nd largest customer, demand heavy offsets.

In this scenario, Embraer would spend 50%+ of the contract value in Pakistan, perhaps by investing in a new aero-structures manufacturing plant, final assembly site, depot-level MRO, etc.

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## RAMPAGE

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The PAF's requirements won't generate enough economies-of-scale to support such a program. So, for example, the KC-390's development costs are apparently around $2 billion US (in 2014, so a little higher today due to inflation). They're banking on export to help recoup those costs, otherwise, it's a massive expense (before the first plane).
> 
> The next best thing the PAF can do is partner with someone else and share the R&D costs while also combining orders to push economies-of-scale.
> 
> So, in this case, you could speak to Turkey or Ukraine on a joint-venture, ideally using a platform that is already working, and then upgrading it. This is what Turkey is doing by backing the An-188 (i.e., jet-powered An-70).
> 
> Perhaps the PAF could look at doing something similar, but with an upgraded propfan-powered An-70 (e.g., An-77) meant for hot-and-high conditions?
> 
> If not this, then you buy a new solution that's available for sale, like the KC-390, but in-exchange for being the top or 2nd largest customer, demand heavy offsets.
> 
> In this scenario, Embraer would spend 50%+ of the contract value in Pakistan, perhaps by investing in a new aero-structures manufacturing plant, final assembly site, depot-level MRO, etc.


Yes, I have suggested a similar partnership before for the C130 replacement. Perhaps it would be better to partner with a JF-17 customer with deep pockets should we manage to find one. Are the Saudis interested in the BLK3?

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## khanasifm

fatman17 said:


> Also interesting, since it is different to the one used on the PAF's JF-17. https://t.co/6T6qlV2MKw
> View attachment 593204



Not sure what new these are dual racks which paf adopted on preference to other side by side dual racks gds-117

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

RAMPAGE said:


> Yes, I have suggested a similar partnership before for the C130 replacement. Perhaps it would be better to partner with a JF-17 customer with deep pockets should we manage to find one. Are the Saudis interested in the BLK3?


No word on that front. Personally, I'm a fan of the An-70, so I'd be down for a new variant with better electronics (An-77).


----------



## Tank131

RAMPAGE said:


> I was referring to a replacement for the aircraft itself, not merely the engine. Is it possible or desirable to create something like the Embraer KC390 - be it a turboprop or a turbofan aircraft?
> 
> 
> This is precisely the disastrous thinking that has kept us from developing industry in Pakistan. Yes, it will be cheaper to import am off-the-shelf product, but it will lead to an economy utterly unable to compete with the rest of the world and with the additional deficit of economic production and trade imbalance. Is it cheaper for the consumer to buy a Japanese car? Yes, but it is absolutely crippling for an economy like ours to import such machinery instead of producing our own. Now you will probably say that our demand for cars does not compare to that of transport aircraft, and therefore my argument is incorrect. I would like to remind you that the industrial capacity produced by such projects is precisely what will lead to a decreased dependence on imported machinery that has destroyed our economy.
> 
> @messiach @Oscar



The reality is that Pakistan has limited resources and where it outs those resources is of significance. Putting the resources to produce 12 aircraft for PAF is a poor use of those resources when these types of aircraft typically serve for 3-4 decades. Foe such a project it is better to buy off the shelf. If you want to have some r&d or industrial development, get it with significant ToT to enable in house construction (rather than just assembly) and go from there. It doesnt make any sense to try to reinvent this wheel. Buy Y-9 with rights to develop. While expensive , it will save time and still be cheaper than starting from scratch. These major projects where you start from development phase is better for more strategic assets.

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## RAMPAGE

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> No word on that front. Personally, I'm a fan of the An-70, so I'd be down for a new variant with better electronics (An-77).


I am all for it if the amount of technology transfer is comparable to that of the JF-17 program. In time, I would like to see PAC producing commercial airliners.



Tank131 said:


> The reality is that Pakistan has limited resources and where it outs those resources is of significance. Putting the resources to produce 12 aircraft for PAF is a poor use of those resources when these types of aircraft typically serve for 3-4 decades. Foe such a project it is better to buy off the shelf. If you want to have some r&d or industrial development, get it with significant ToT to enable in house construction (rather than just assembly) and go from there. It doesnt make any sense to try to reinvent this wheel. Buy Y-9 with rights to develop. While expensive , it will save time and still be cheaper than starting from scratch. These major projects where you start from development phase is better for more strategic assets.


Now you are just rephrasing the objections I already addressed in my previous reply.

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## Tank131

RAMPAGE said:


> I am all for it if the amount of technology transfer is comparable to that of the JF-17 program. In time, I would like to see PAC producing commercial airliners.
> 
> 
> Now you are just rephrasing the objections I already addressed in my previous reply.


Again, what strategic gain is it to develop this type of aircraft from scratch. Indont even think it needs inhouse production but can be acquired off the shelf. Spend your money on weapons, radars, fighter/strike aircraft, and other major weapons systems.it would be a different situation if Pakistan had Saudi level money or had no access to comparable aircrafy, but neither are true. Its not about not doing the project, rather picking the right projects which will be cost effective and fill strategic needs. It is like all things, based on the hierarchy of need. Get the bread and butter parts of the industry first by filling it with strategically important thinks, then you can worry about adding other pieces as the funds arise.

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## StormBreaker

RAMPAGE said:


> I was referring to a replacement for the aircraft itself, not merely the engine. Is it possible or desirable to create something like the Embraer KC390 - be it a turboprop or a turbofan aircraft?
> 
> 
> This is precisely the disastrous thinking that has kept us from developing industry in Pakistan. Yes, it will be cheaper to import am off-the-shelf product, but it will lead to an economy utterly unable to compete with the rest of the world and with the additional deficit of economic production and trade imbalance. Is it cheaper for the consumer to buy a Japanese car? Yes, but it is absolutely crippling for an economy like ours to import such machinery instead of producing our own. Now you will probably say that our demand for cars does not compare to that of transport aircraft, and therefore my argument is incorrect. I would like to remind you that the industrial capacity produced by such projects is precisely what will lead to a decreased dependence on imported machinery that has destroyed our economy.
> 
> @messiach @Oscar


ACM Sohail Aman did give hint of Aviation city developing passenger planes.



RAMPAGE said:


> I was referring to a replacement for the aircraft itself, not merely the engine. Is it possible or desirable to create something like the Embraer KC390 - be it a turboprop or a turbofan aircraft?
> 
> 
> This is precisely the disastrous thinking that has kept us from developing industry in Pakistan. Yes, it will be cheaper to import am off-the-shelf product, but it will lead to an economy utterly unable to compete with the rest of the world and with the additional deficit of economic production and trade imbalance. Is it cheaper for the consumer to buy a Japanese car? Yes, but it is absolutely crippling for an economy like ours to import such machinery instead of producing our own. Now you will probably say that our demand for cars does not compare to that of transport aircraft, and therefore my argument is incorrect. I would like to remind you that the industrial capacity produced by such projects is precisely what will lead to a decreased dependence on imported machinery that has destroyed our economy.
> 
> @messiach @Oscar


Why build something from scratch when your intended fleet is no more than 20 max ? 
Plus, you can’t compete in the world for export since china will become more popular eventually in commercial aircrafts thanks to our riyal walay bhais.

This sort of project requires billions of dollars of budget just to develop a turbofan.

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## fatman17

khanasifm said:


> Not sure what new these are dual racks which paf adopted on preference to other side by side dual racks gds-117
> 
> View attachment 593253


Always testing different options


----------



## Dazzler

Windjammer said:


> The PAF Police get the road version of F-16.
> 
> View attachment 593149
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 593151



I wonder what they'll do with it.


----------



## fatman17

Pakistan's Inter Services Public Relations Pakistan (ISPR) released a brief video of the Army Chief visiting PAC at Kamra. Quite interesting there is a JF-17 single seater as well as a JF-17B (?) in the background ... strange however is its construction number. [emoji848] https://t.co/tRWWoerYrJ

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## mingle

fatman17 said:


> Pakistan's Inter Services Public Relations Pakistan (ISPR) released a brief video of the Army Chief visiting PAC at Kamra. Quite interesting there is a JF-17 single seater as well as a JF-17B (?) in the background ... strange however is its construction number. [emoji848] https://t.co/tRWWoerYrJ
> View attachment 593734
> View attachment 593735


Remember 27 ordered maybe few coming from china

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## Windjammer

GriffinsRule said:


> That seems like a waste of funds to me





MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> If true---then it is a horrific offence against the nation---.





Adam_Khan said:


> Clearly says airforce police,if they haven't been given for free then it's a big waste of resources.





Dazzler said:


> I wonder what they'll do with it.


I believe this is just from Nawaz Sharif's collection, passed down for some VIP protocol.

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## Raider 21

fatman17 said:


> Pakistan's Inter Services Public Relations Pakistan (ISPR) released a brief video of the Army Chief visiting PAC at Kamra. Quite interesting there is a JF-17 single seater as well as a JF-17B (?) in the background ... strange however is its construction number. [emoji848] https://t.co/tRWWoerYrJ
> View attachment 593734
> View attachment 593735


Going there in a few weeks, hopefully they allow pictures.

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## StormBreaker

Knuckles said:


> Going there in a few weeks, hopefully they allow pictures.


I wish first flight is before your visit, you will lose the race .

Anyhow, please do ask for B3A if in case first flight of B3 is a B model, then i would be disappointed...


----------



## khanasifm

?? Are these kits for lgb and not REK 

Lgb nose /seeks sections ?


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## khanasifm




----------



## JamD

khanasifm said:


> View attachment 593775
> 
> 
> ?? Are these kits for lgb and not REK
> 
> Lgb nose /seeks sections ?



These are parts for the laser guided bombs. The two on the left fit together to make the one on the right, to which fins and seeker are attached. Definitely NOT REK parts. REK wings are visible on the bottom right in green in the second picture in my quoted post:



JamD said:


> Laser Guided Bomb parts:
> View attachment 593718
> 
> 
> I-REK Wings:
> View attachment 593719


----------



## StormBreaker

khanasifm said:


> View attachment 593775
> 
> 
> ?? Are these kits for lgb and not REK
> 
> Lgb nose /seeks sections ?


Is that for attaching an active seeker on top ?


----------



## Raider 21

StormBreaker said:


> I wish first flight is before your visit, you will lose the race .
> 
> Anyhow, please do ask for B3A if in case first flight of B3 is a B model, then i would be disappointed...


Haha I am not in a rush for it. 

Will do.

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## GriffinsRule

News is that JF-17 will be performing at Doha on Dec 18th for Qatars National Day celebration

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## StormBreaker

GriffinsRule said:


> News is that JF-17 will be performing at Doha on Dec 18th for Qatars National Day celebration


Source?


----------



## Windjammer

Seems the Brass and Copper attachments for LGBs is a new thing. Earlier these parts were said to be made from reinforced Aluminium.

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## StormBreaker

Windjammer said:


> Seems the Brass and Copper attachments for LGBs is a new thing. Earlier these parts were said to be made from reinforced Aluminium.
> 
> View attachment 593793
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 593794


Aluminum could fail during hit by providing eating momentum upon encounter. Brass/copper alloy is stiff


----------



## air marshal

Qatar Invites PAF to perform on it's National Day Parade on 18th December









http://falcons.pk/photo/JF-17-Thunder/1885

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## StormBreaker

@Signalian Are we going to fly in a ‘Customer’s’ land ?


----------



## fatman17

mingle said:


> Remember 27 ordered maybe few coming from china


At least 2 that we know of so far

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## khanasifm

Pac

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## mingle

khanasifm said:


> View attachment 594010
> 
> 
> Pac


Rebuilding old cobras I read on other PDF by Usman Shabbir that Army looking to upgrade these old cobras from turkey like Jordan has plus Army Aviation has fantastic engine workshop for these cobras.

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## GriffinsRule

mingle said:


> Rebuilding old cobras I read on other PDF by Usman Shabbir that Army looking to upgrade these old cobras from turkey like Jordan has plus Army Aviation has fantastic engine workshop for these cobras.


They had to out of necessity. These Cobras were turning into deathtraps for its crew. Bodes well for Pakistan that it is feeling more emboldened to help itself, like it did with Saab 2000s.

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## fatman17

GriffinsRule said:


> They had to out of necessity. These Cobras were turning into deathtraps for its crew. Bodes well for Pakistan that it is feeling more emboldened to help itself, like it did with Saab 2000s.


Necessity is the mother of invention. HST, these overhauls and upgrades are not cheap as spares have to be procured at commercial rates plus cannabalization.

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## fatman17

According to the local sources, JF-17 Block Ⅲ has made the maiden flight today. Congratulations! https://t.co/HuAOUOqobT

At Chengdu, China.

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## mingle

fatman17 said:


> According to the local sources, JF-17 Block Ⅲ has made the maiden flight today. Congratulations! https://t.co/HuAOUOqobT
> 
> At Chengdu, China.


No piccss


----------



## fatman17

mingle said:


> No piccss


Searching [emoji5]

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## khanasifm

mingle said:


> Rebuilding old cobras I read on other PDF by Usman Shabbir that Army looking to upgrade these old cobras from turkey like Jordan has plus Army Aviation has fantastic engine workshop for these cobras.



I think this is what happened 

US provided 20 cobras for flying condition which were added 

It also provided 20 cobras for spares but to make sure pak did not make them fly worthy all cabling /wiring was cut out but had everything else to be converted to spares 

Pak inventory looks like is more than usual ie 20 older cobras plus 20 new one delivered in 2010ish so should be around 40’max minus attrition 

Pak/pac took the challenge and used wiring at pac w/o tech docs to recover and replace lost ones there were at least 2/3 accidents and losses over the years since 80s 

I think they used 10-12 to be converted to spare and rewire 8-10 more to bring them to flight status 

There were pic of cobra being unloaded from c-141 with all wire cut out at one time 

Again this is my theory but I can be totally wrong

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## fatman17

khanasifm said:


> I think this is what happened
> 
> US provided 20 cobras for flying condition which were added
> 
> It also provided 20 cobras for spares but to make sure pak did not make them fly worthy all cabling /wiring was cut out but had everything else to be converted to spares
> 
> Pak inventory looks like is more than usual ie 20 older cobras plus 20 new one delivered in 2010ish so should be around 40’max minus attrition
> 
> Pak/pac took the challenge and used wiring at pac w/o tech docs to recover and replace lost ones there were at least 2/3 accidents and losses over the years since 80s
> 
> I think they used 10-12 to be converted to spare and rewire 8-10 more to bring them to flight status
> 
> There were pic of cobra being unloaded from c-141 with all wire cut out at one time
> 
> Again this is my theory but I can be totally wrong


Very likely actually. completely remember the delivery of the 20 cobras for spares utilisation, were stored at Multan AAB.

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## GriffinsRule

khanasifm said:


> I think this is what happened
> 
> US provided 20 cobras for flying condition which were added
> 
> It also provided 20 cobras for spares but to make sure pak did not make them fly worthy all cabling /wiring was cut out but had everything else to be converted to spares
> 
> Pak inventory looks like is more than usual ie 20 older cobras plus 20 new one delivered in 2010ish so should be around 40’max minus attrition
> 
> Pak/pac took the challenge and used wiring at pac w/o tech docs to recover and replace lost ones there were at least 2/3 accidents and losses over the years since 80s
> 
> I think they used 10-12 to be converted to spare and rewire 8-10 more to bring them to flight status
> 
> There were pic of cobra being unloaded from c-141 with all wire cut out at one time
> 
> Again this is my theory but I can be totally wrong



Pakistan has had 7 Cobra related accidents or crashes since 2008 that I know of, probably more. If any of them are not written off completely and just damaged (3 maybe), it is bound by circumstances to try to rebuild or recover them, since new or used ones are not seemingly coming as expected (read AH-1Zs not delivered, T-129 delayed).

Cut cabling or wiring is not a big challenge for us to overcome honestly, but it is keeping the antiquated systems running. I think it would make sense to completely replace the internals of the gunships with systems sourced from Kamra or abroad, though I am not sure how that would impact OEM support etc for engines and such. But replacing wiring is a pretty easy thing for us to accomplish given last decade of manufacturing experience with the JF-17

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## Ali_Baba

Question for everyone in the know.

Have the Egyptian Mirage 3/5's been delivered yet ?( ie the Horus upgraded Mirages ).


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## syed_yusuf

Ali_Baba said:


> Question for everyone in the know.
> 
> Have the Egyptian Mirage 3/5's been delivered yet ?( ie the Horus upgraded Mirages ).


No news

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## air marshal

http://falcons.pk/photo/JF-17-Thunder/2416

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## air marshal



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## The Eagle

PAF JF-17 THUNDER PARTICIPATE IN FLYPAST
ON THE NATIONAL DAY OF QATAR

18 December, 2019:
It was a momentous occasion when three PAF JF-17 Thunder aircraft presented spectacular flypast in Qatar on the eve of national day of this brotherly country. The spectators fervently cheered to see the pride of Pakistan JF 17 aircraft appearing on the horizon. His Highness Tamim bin Hamad Al Thani, Emir of Qatar and his father Hamad bin Khalifa Al Thani (former Emir of Qatar) along with thousands of citizens and residents witnessed the Qatar National Day parade. All branches of Qatar’s Military and Civil Defence including Emiri Forces, Air Force, Army, different Police wings took part in the Parade. PAF contingent comprising pilots and ground crew of Pakistan Air Force had arrived at Doha to participate in the Qatar National Day Celebrations.

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## denel

The Eagle said:


> PAF JF-17 THUNDER PARTICIPATE IN FLYPAST
> ON THE NATIONAL DAY OF QATAR
> 
> 18 December, 2019:
> It was a momentous occasion when three PAF JF-17 Thunder aircraft presented spectacular flypast in Qatar on the eve of national day of this brotherly country. The spectators fervently cheered to see the pride of Pakistan JF 17 aircraft appearing on the horizon. His Highness Tamim bin Hamad Al Thani, Emir of Qatar and his father Hamad bin Khalifa Al Thani (former Emir of Qatar) along with thousands of citizens and residents witnessed the Qatar National Day parade. All branches of Qatar’s Military and Civil Defence including Emiri Forces, Air Force, Army, different Police wings took part in the Parade. PAF contingent comprising pilots and ground crew of Pakistan Air Force had arrived at Doha to participate in the Qatar National Day Celebrations.


Looks good; and pretty much even with M2K size wise.

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## khanasifm

denel said:


> Looks good; and pretty much even with M2K size wise.



In one of the recent films there was a scene at paf academy and where they compare jf vs mirage 2k and I don’t think clips are available but it compared Turing capability of jf vs mirage 2k in a dog [emoji240] fight bottom line mirage will bleed off energy while jf will maintain or preserve even with tight turning and come on top to win due to aerodynamic capabilities

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## Ahmet Pasha

Hope Qatar buys Blk 3.
We paraded ATAK in our national day parade long before we signed the deal.

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## nomi007

Hope Paf will test its Jets against Rafale in Qatar


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## fatman17

*December 18/19: Technical Security Support* Booz Allen Hamilton won a $9.1 million contract



to provide technical security team support services in support of the Pakistan F-16 program. On June 28, 2006, the US DSCA notified Congress via a series of releases of its intention to provide Pakistan with a $5.1 billion Foreign Military Sales package to upgrade the F-16s that serve as the PAF’s top of the line fighters. Pakistan has used the F-16 fighter jets against India, the latest being in the aftermath of the Balakot airstrike inside Pakistan by India. The Pakistan Air Force received its first F-16, in the Block 15 F-16A/B configuration, in 1982. Work under the deal will take place in Pakistan and expected completion is on June 18, 2020.


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## ghazi52

Gilgit airport

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## Readerdefence

nomi007 said:


> Hope Paf will test its Jets against Rafale in Qatar


Hi hope they don’t have a clause like PAF f16 not to participate with the foreign airforce in any kind 
Just a thought 
Thank you


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## Talon

Readerdefence said:


> Hi hope they don’t have a clause like PAF f16 not to participate with the foreign airforce in any kind
> Just a thought
> Thank you


Already flown against Saudi F15s as well not forgetting JF17s participated in Anatolian Eagle this year.

And who said Pakistani F16s cant participate with other air forces? It's just the Chinese who are not allowed to come close to it (On Ground) (In front of the Americans).

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## Readerdefence

Hodor said:


> Already flown against Saudi F15s as well not forgetting JF17s participated in Anatolian Eagle this year.
> 
> And who said Pakistani F16s cant participate with other air forces? It's just the Chinese who are not allowed to come close to it (On Ground) (In front of the Americans).
> 
> View attachment 594650


Hi thanks for your reply I’m specially wrote about blk 52 that’s what we heard 
So if we go my your info PAF can pitch them against Chinese j11 & j10 in pakistan & abroad 
Thanks for your reply


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## araz

Readerdefence said:


> Hi thanks for your reply I’m specially wrote about blk 52 that’s what we heard
> So if we go my your info PAF can pitch them against Chinese j11 & j10 in pakistan & abroad
> Thanks for your reply


No and No.
A


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## fatman17

JF17 Block III at CAC perhaps

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## nomi007

fatman17 said:


> JF17 Block III at CAC perhaps
> View attachment 594668


proof?


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## TsAr

nomi007 said:


> proof?


he mentioned the word perhaps, which means he is not sure himself, so no proof is required.

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## ghazi52

Aerial view of Skardu Airport and Air Base
Skardu, Gilgit Baltistan

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## Windjammer



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## ghazi52

Pakistan Air Force Feb, 2019

Remember..............

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## Readerdefence

araz said:


> No and No.
> A


Hi araz thanks for the information


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## devil302

Windjammer said:


>


the one on top looks awesome with same colour nose..

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## SABRE

Dil Pakistan said:


> Hello Everyone: …. is this true?



I wouldn't buy into anything the YouTube videos say. I found most YouTube defence and journalistic channels as a mean to _fifteen-minutes-of-fame _for people pretending to be military, academic or journalistic experts. Most of their analysis is also amateurish. Suffice to say, they usually conjure up unverifiable information just to increase their following. Some, however, have some sort of a backing, even though the realities of their expertise are same.

Because of my above views I did not go through the whole video. But having said the above, there were speculations of possible 3rd Chinese stealth fighter when J-20 and J-31/FC-31 projects began. There was a view at the time that these two aircraft were actually exploratory attempts to be followed up by an aircraft that could actually be at par with the American F-22 and F-35. This was to be done as soon as Chinese aviation technology _matured_. But with China trying to flex its air power quickly against the US they decided to finalize at least one of these aircraft as operational products, and the J-20 was eventually selected for that purpose. I suspect that the Chinese would at some point begin exploring 5th Gen VTOL aircraft for both PLAAF and PLAN.

Don't know what they are offering Pakistan though, but they certainly won't tell a YouTuber.

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## jupiter2007

Dil Pakistan said:


> Hello Everyone: …. is this true?



Bunch of BS and nothing more, sound like reading a khabarnama.
I can do better video both in Urdu and English.


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## StormBreaker

SABRE said:


> I wouldn't buy into anything the YouTube videos say. I found most YouTube defence and journalistic channels as a mean to _fifteen-minutes-of-fame _for people pretending to be military, academic or journalistic experts. Most of their analysis is also amateurish. Suffice to say, they usually conjure up unverifiable information just to increase their following. Some, however, have some sort of a backing, even though the realities of their expertise are same.
> 
> Because of my above views I did not go through the whole video. But having said the above, there were speculations of possible 3rd Chinese stealth fighter when J-20 and J-31/FC-31 projects began. There was a view at the time that these two aircraft were actually exploratory attempts to be followed up by an aircraft that could actually be at par with the American F-22 and F-35. This was to be done as soon as Chinese aviation technology _matured_. But with China trying to flex its air power quickly against the US they decided to finalize at least one of these aircraft as operational products, and the J-20 was eventually selected for that purpose. I suspect that the Chinese would at some point begin exploring 5th Gen VTOL aircraft for both PLAAF and PLAN.
> 
> Don't know what they are offering Pakistan though, but they certainly won't tell a YouTuber.


There are at least 7 years away from producing anything like VTOL. Or even more. Their engines and TVC aren’t mature yet and VTOL is on a whole different level.

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## SABRE

StormBreaker said:


> There are at least 7 years away from producing anything like VTOL. Or even more. Their engines and TVC aren’t mature yet and VTOL is on a whole different level.



Agreed. Though, I think they might be at least 7 to 10 years away from producing and maturing VTOL/STOVL technology. Not to forget an engine at par with P&W F135. The aircraft itself might be even further away.


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## Ahmet Pasha

If true this bird is starting to look a lot like the F16. It has come along way since 2007


nomi007 said:


> proof?


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## Windjammer



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## air marshal

http://falcons.pk/photo/JF-17-Thunder/2435

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## StormBreaker

air marshal said:


> http://falcons.pk/photo/JF-17-Thunder/2435


Any amateur can mistake this beauty with F-16 !!!
Thunder

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## Dazzler

Courtesy ACE of PAF's facebook page:

"Why Pakistan flies F-16 on border patrols also known as CAP or combat air patrols?

Because F-16 are equipped with AIM-120 AMRAAM.

Little known to general public , there are two criteria for major overhaul of an air to air missiles.

Shelf life when the missile is not mounted on a fighter jet and in storage. Missiles can have many years of shelf life before needing a major overhaul.

Captive flying hours. Or the amount of time a missile flies while attached to a fighter jets.
This is the real problem.

Since an air to air missile experiences violent vibrations, extreme temperature changes and other forms of stress while flying mounted on a fighter jet. It needs a major overhaul after certain number of flying hours and an accurate record is kept for each missile.

For AMRAAM AIM-120 the reported Captive flying hours were 895 as of 1990.

Since then the later versions have been improved and the version Pakistan uses AIM-120C had 1500 captive flying hours endurance before overhaul.

In comparison a French Meteor missile (used on Rafale) needs a motor change every 500 flying hours and a complete overhaul every 1000 flying hours.

The SD-10 air to air missile used by JF-17 Thunder is far more accurate and has a much higher kill probability than AIM-120 , but has a very low endurance for captive flying hours. The missile needs to be taken apart and thoroughly checked after every 100 flying hours , which is far lower than the 1500 hours of AIM-120C.

For this reason F-16 with AIM-120 patrol Pakistani skies on combat patrols, and JF-17 with SD-10 are only sent in at critical occasions where actual combat is imminent.

This configuration is cost effective."

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## khanasifm

~$2M a piece 


https://www.janes.com/article/93354/germany-boosts-meteor-bvraam-inventory


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## PakFactor

Dazzler said:


> Courtesy ACE of PAF's facebook page:
> 
> "Why Pakistan flies F-16 on border patrols also known as CAP or combat air patrols?
> 
> Because F-16 are equipped with AIM-120 AMRAAM.
> 
> Little known to general public , there are two criteria for major overhaul of an air to air missiles.
> 
> Shelf life when the missile is not mounted on a fighter jet and in storage. Missiles can have many years of shelf life before needing a major overhaul.
> 
> Captive flying hours. Or the amount of time a missile flies while attached to a fighter jets.
> This is the real problem.
> 
> Since an air to air missile experiences violent vibrations, extreme temperature changes and other forms of stress while flying mounted on a fighter jet. It needs a major overhaul after certain number of flying hours and an accurate record is kept for each missile.
> 
> For AMRAAM AIM-120 the reported Captive flying hours were 895 as of 1990.
> 
> Since then the later versions have been improved and the version Pakistan uses AIM-120C had 1500 captive flying hours endurance before overhaul.
> 
> In comparison a French Meteor missile (used on Rafale) needs a motor change every 500 flying hours and a complete overhaul every 1000 flying hours.
> 
> The SD-10 air to air missile used by JF-17 Thunder is far more accurate and has a much higher kill probability than AIM-120 , but has a very low endurance for captive flying hours. The missile needs to be taken apart and thoroughly checked after every 100 flying hours , which is far lower than the 1500 hours of AIM-120C.
> 
> For this reason F-16 with AIM-120 patrol Pakistani skies on combat patrols, and JF-17 with SD-10 are only sent in at critical occasions where actual combat is imminent.
> 
> This configuration is cost effective."



If that is true about SD-10 overhaul time frame that’s sad — waste of time and man power. I would’ve thought it’ll be much better than that. 

Also, compared to AMRAAM the SD isn’t battle tested how can we know it’s accurate and survive a high EW environment?

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## fatman17




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## Pakistani Fighter

Dazzler said:


> The SD-10 air to air missile used by JF-17 Thunder is far more accurate and has a much higher kill probability than AIM-120


But how? Ita not even tested in Battles?
If u are assuming it by testing in Military practices, then how it compares with PL 15?



Dazzler said:


> The missile needs to be taken apart and thoroughly checked after every 100 flying hours , which is far lower than the 1500 hours of AIM-120C.


What about PL 15?



Dazzler said:


> For this reason F-16 with AIM-120 patrol Pakistani skies on combat patrols, and JF-17 with SD-10 are only sent in at critical occasions where actual combat is imminent.


Sorry but F16s can carry 6 AMRAAMS compared to just 2 SD 10s by JF17s (as seen in pictures). AIM 120C5s have higher ranges then SD 10s. AMRAAMS are battle proven whereas SD 10s are not. F16s have better EW capabilities, better radars and better Fuel Capacities then JF 17s (uptill now).


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## PakFactor

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> But how? Ita not even tested in Battles?
> If u are assuming it by testing in Military practices, then how it compares with PL 15?
> 
> 
> What about PL 15?
> 
> 
> Sorry but F16s can carry 6 AMRAAMS compared to just 2 SD 10s by JF17s (as seen in pictures). AIM 120C5s have higher ranges then SD 10s. AMRAAMS are battle proven whereas SD 10s are not. F16s have better EW capabilities, better radars and better Fuel Capacities then JF 17s (uptill now).



On top of that AMRAAMS probably have a better probability to survive a EW Spoofing etc environment considering its battle tested and our load out is small that’s another concern I have always had.


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## khanasifm

PakFactor said:


> If that is true about SD-10 overhaul time frame that’s sad — waste of time and man power. I would’ve thought it’ll be much better than that.
> 
> Also, compared to AMRAAM the SD isn’t battle tested how can we know it’s accurate and survive a high EW environment?



comments

1 aim-120 was tested for xx hours and Then with passage of time flight hours it’s life schedule defined enhanced it was not out of the box it got where it is today 

2 sd-10 is far cheaper so who cares if 1500 bs 200 hours as long as they have per hour cost comparison which will go down with passage of time 

3 No need to compare US system with Chinese US is decade ahead of Europe or rest of the world 

4 paf is still a third world airforce do not compare it with west and pak is still a third world country where majority of population is uneducated 

5 compare prep wrt to major threat or opponents as long as paf is able to defend against it, its fine no need to compare to usaf or other modern af with advance capabilities, resources and materials available 

Cheer

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## PakFactor

khanasifm said:


> Two comments
> 
> 1 aim-120 was tested for xx hours and Then with passage of time flight hours it’s life schedule defined enhanced it was not out of the box it got where it is today
> 
> 2 sd-10 is far cheaper so who cares if 1500 bs 200 hours as long as they have per hour cost comparison which will go down with passage of time
> 
> 3 No need to compare US system with Chinese US is decade aged of Europe or ready of the world
> 
> 4 paf is still a third world airforce do not compare it with west and pak is still a third world country where majority of population is uneducated
> 
> 5 compare prep wrt to major threat or opponents as long as paf is able to defend against it, its fine no need to compare to usaf or other modern af with advance capabilities, resources and materials available
> 
> Cheer



That’s not a good way to look at things — yes we should be looking to compete against west as well because our enemy will not stay Ganguland forever. If we can not give our boys the proper equipment that will be doing them a disservice and could imperial the security of our nation.

It’s a stupid mentality to keep for any nation be it rich or poor.

Along with this minimum deterrence crap our officers keep spewing needs to be gone completely because a defensive force never wins and they’ve never won a god damn war. Either focus on offensive capabilities or wither away under an assault.

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## Vortex

PakFactor said:


> That’s not a good way to look at things — yes we should be looking to compete against west as well because our enemy will not stay Ganguland forever. If we can not give our boys the proper equipment that will be doing them a disservice and could imperial the security of our nation.
> 
> It’s a stupid mentality to keep for any nation be it rich or poor.
> 
> Along with this minimum deterrence crap our officers keep spewing needs to be gone completely because a defensive force never wins and they’ve never won a god damn war. Either focus on offensive capabilities or wither away under an assault.



Agreed with both of you and @khanasifm but we are at the beginning of our defence industry, etc and we have to work with what we can get. What was the captive flight time for the first version of the AIM120 ?

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## StormBreaker

Dazzler said:


> Courtesy ACE of PAF's facebook page:
> 
> "Why Pakistan flies F-16 on border patrols also known as CAP or combat air patrols?
> 
> Because F-16 are equipped with AIM-120 AMRAAM.
> 
> Little known to general public , there are two criteria for major overhaul of an air to air missiles.
> 
> Shelf life when the missile is not mounted on a fighter jet and in storage. Missiles can have many years of shelf life before needing a major overhaul.
> 
> Captive flying hours. Or the amount of time a missile flies while attached to a fighter jets.
> This is the real problem.
> 
> Since an air to air missile experiences violent vibrations, extreme temperature changes and other forms of stress while flying mounted on a fighter jet. It needs a major overhaul after certain number of flying hours and an accurate record is kept for each missile.
> 
> For AMRAAM AIM-120 the reported Captive flying hours were 895 as of 1990.
> 
> Since then the later versions have been improved and the version Pakistan uses AIM-120C had 1500 captive flying hours endurance before overhaul.
> 
> In comparison a French Meteor missile (used on Rafale) needs a motor change every 500 flying hours and a complete overhaul every 1000 flying hours.
> 
> The SD-10 air to air missile used by JF-17 Thunder is far more accurate and has a much higher kill probability than AIM-120 , but has a very low endurance for captive flying hours. The missile needs to be taken apart and thoroughly checked after every 100 flying hours , which is far lower than the 1500 hours of AIM-120C.
> 
> For this reason F-16 with AIM-120 patrol Pakistani skies on combat patrols, and JF-17 with SD-10 are only sent in at critical occasions where actual combat is imminent.
> 
> This configuration is cost effective."


A beautiful and highly informative read.

My questions :

- What are the Hardware/Physical elements that judges CPF and affects it ?

- CPF of PL-15, are they known yet ?

- Why SD-10 is considered better than AIM-120 (not taking CPF into consideration) and is it inferior to AIM-120D in terms of accuracy?

@MastanKhan @HRK @Signalian


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## Ali_Baba

After the Feb 27 2019 incident, the IAF went out and purchased close to 800 R77s and the like. This was mostly likely down to the IAF exhausting the captive flying hours and total lifespan of those missiles and needed replenishment of their stocks on an asap basis. 

USA way ahead, that is why so many people want the American stuff and why PAF will always want American gear. It operates very well, are very thoroughly tested, in many cases combat proven and they tend to have long shelf lives, and product usage lifespans to boot. What ever you think of America itself, their military equipment is second to none. Even Europe is quite behind in comparison as proven with the Meteor captive flying hours as shown above !!!!

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## DrWatson775

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> But how? Ita not even tested in Battles?
> Sorry but F16s can carry 6 AMRAAMS compared to just 2 SD 10s by JF17s (as seen in pictures). AIM 120C5s have higher ranges then SD 10s. AMRAAMS are battle proven whereas SD 10s are not. F16s have better EW capabilities, better radars and better Fuel Capacities then JF 17s (uptill now).



Reportedly SD10 is very jamming resistant, is more lethal and has more range than 120 charlie (but 120 D is better).

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## air marshal




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## ziaulislam

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> But how? Ita not even tested in Battles?
> If u are assuming it by testing in Military practices, then how it compares with PL 15?
> 
> 
> What about PL 15?
> 
> 
> Sorry but F16s can carry 6 AMRAAMS compared to just 2 SD 10s by JF17s (as seen in pictures). AIM 120C5s have higher ranges then SD 10s. AMRAAMS are battle proven whereas SD 10s are not. F16s have better EW capabilities, better radars and better Fuel Capacities then JF 17s (uptill now).


Actually standarad is 4 aim 120 with two fuel tanks for f16

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## Pakistani Fighter

ziaulislam said:


> Actually standarad is 4 aim 120 with two fuel tanks for f16


Yes but it can carry 6 AMRAAMS


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## ziaulislam

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Yes but it can carry 6 AMRAAMS


Well jf17 can carry four as well in dual racks. Or if you sacrifice fuel 4 on regular pylons


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## Pakistani Fighter

ziaulislam said:


> Well jf17 can carry four as well in dual racks. Or if you sacrifice fuel 4 on regular pylons


Oh. Havent seen in pictures


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## ghazi52

Quaid-e-Azam M.A. Jinnah with Asghar Khan at PAF Academy Risalpur in 1947-48

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## fatman17

Lol. ....

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## air marshal

1st JF-17B rolls out

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## mingle

air marshal said:


> 1st JF-17B rolls out


New Sqd will raise or will induct in old ones??


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## ghazi52



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## khanasifm

mingle said:


> New Sqd will raise or will induct in old ones??



2018/19 pac pushed 12 single seater plus 8 dual seater, 1 new sqn expected plus all sqn will get a dual seater (guessing)

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## GumNaam

khanasifm said:


> 2018/19 pac pushed 12 single seater plus 8 dual seater 1 sqn plus all sqn will get a dual seater (guessing)


Pakistan has no need for dual seater Thunders as we've been operating single seater Thunders for well over a decade now. The range of the aircraft is just not long enough to be a deep strike fighter. I can 99.9999999% guarantee you, these dual seaters are being customized as GROWLERS! the iaf, ia and in can look forward to fighting there future battles BLIND!

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## Akh1112

GumNaam said:


> Pakistan has no need for dual seater Thunders as we've been operating single seater Thunders for well over a decade now. The range of the aircraft is just not long enough to be a deep strike fighter. I can 99.9999999% guarantee you, these dual seaters are being customized as GROWLERS! the iaf, ia and in can look forward to fighting there future battles BLIND!



I mean, there is nothing to say it cant be used as a deep strike fighter. Remember, Thunder is a replacement for F7s and Mirage's. The latter of which operates a deep strike role. It will need to be replaced. I dont see anything to indicate that the PAF would have a Thunder dedicated purely towards EW.


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## fatman17

Today and quite as a surprise PAC Kamra rolled out the first eight twin seater JF-17Bs, what is an incredible achievement, since all eight were built within only five months.

https://t.co/3eUXpaWKc4

(Images via video) https://t.co/ENf4K7rD14

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## fatman17

This is quite a strong possibility.


GumNaam said:


> Pakistan has no need for dual seater Thunders as we've been operating single seater Thunders for well over a decade now. The range of the aircraft is just not long enough to be a deep strike fighter. I can 99.9999999% guarantee you, these dual seaters are being customized as GROWLERS! the iaf, ia and in can look forward to fighting there future battles BLIND!

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## GumNaam

Akh1112 said:


> I mean, there is nothing to say it cant be used as a deep strike fighter. Remember, Thunder is a replacement for F7s and Mirage's. The latter of which operates a deep strike role. It will need to be replaced. I dont see anything to indicate that the PAF would have a Thunder dedicated purely towards EW.


An EW role is a simple software change and addition of EW/jamming pods on external hard points that the second aviator in the back seat operates. Any dual seater can do this provided it's engine can generate enough power to fire up the EW/jamming pods which I'm sure the JF17 can generate.


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## fatman17

The latest image claimed that the maiden flight of *JF-17* Block III (#3000) took place on December 15, 2019 in Chengdu. The aircraft features a *J-20* style wide-angle holographic HUD as well as *J-10C* style forward IIR MAWS sensors behind the engine air intakes.
_- Last Updated 12/27/19_

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## GumNaam

fatman17 said:


> The latest image claimed that the maiden flight of *JF-17* Block III (#3000) took place on December 15, 2019 in Chengdu. The aircraft features a *J-20* style wide-angle holographic HUD as well as *J-10C* style forward IIR MAWS sensors behind the engine air intakes.
> _- Last Updated 12/27/19_
> View attachment 596183


Advantage of wide angle holographic HUD? and what's a IIR MAWS?


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## Ultima Thule

GumNaam said:


> Advantage of wide angle holographic HUD? and what's a IIR MAWS?


More cues from the HUD at wider angles, INFRARED MISSILE APPROACH WARNING SYSTEM

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## ghazi52



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## Akh1112

ghazi52 said:


>




? We have seen this picture multiple times

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## ghazi52

Air Force Day celebrations at PAF Station,Drig Road, Karachi on 10 January, 1965.
Courtesy : Ahmed Alv

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## fatman17

JF-17 Block III Fierce Dragon/Thunder


The first JF-17 Block III prototype (#3000) just returned to the CAC airfield from its maiden flight on December 15, 2019. As the latest variant of JF-17, Block III carries PAF's ambition to counter IAF's most powerful 3.5th generation fighter Rafale. The aircraft is expected to feature a more powerful engine (WS-13E? 9,000kg class), a new AESA radar developed by NETRI/14th Institute(KLJ-7A, range 170km, track 15, engage 4) or by the 607 Institute (LKF601E, air cooled), HMDS, IRST, upgraded EW suite, full authority digital FBW and a variety of air-to-air and air-to-ground guided weapons including PL-10E IIR guided AAM as well as PL-15E active radar homing AAM (using twin launch rails). Additional hard points are installed including ones underneath the engine air intake for ECM or targeting pod. Images of the first flight indicated the JF-17Block III prototype features a J-20 style narrow frame wide-angle holographic HUD (EHUD-2?), a slightly enlarged spine, and new forward MAWS sensors behind the engine air intakes. The rear MAWS sensors were relocated to the EW compartment on top of the vertical tail fin as well. Otherwisethe overall aerodynamic configuration remains unchanged and the aircraft is still powered by the original RD-93 engine.
- Last Updated 12/29/19

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## fatman17

JF-17B Fierce Dragon/Thunder


This tandem-seat trainer version was developed at the request of Pakistani AF, which also pre-ordered the first prototype. JF-17B is believed to have been based on the JF-17 Block II configuration with a IFR probe and an LED probe light installed on the starboard side of the forward fuselage. The aircraft features an enlarged and raised spine which creates additional space for flight instruments and fuel in order to compensate the space occupied by the rear cockpit. The aircraft also features a more swept vertical tail in order to reduce drag and to maintain the center of gravity. A new color LED landing light was installed above the front landing gear. A more powerful cockpit environmental control system has been installed as well to accommodate two pilots. More composite materials have been used in order to reduce the weight and to strengthen the structure. JF-17B is reportedly controlled by a new 3-axis digital FBW system replacing the old analog system. The aircraft is equipped with the same KLJ-7 PD fire-control radar and retain the same BVR as well as precision air-to-ground strike capabilities as JF-17 Block II. As the result JF-17B represents a very attractive option to foreign customers with limited budget and resources. Its length is 14.5m, height is 4.6m, TO weight is 9.4t, max external load is 4.6t. A model of the aircraft was first unveiled at the 2013 Paris Airshow by CATIC. The development started officially in 2014. The 01 prototype of JF-17B was constructed in December 2016 and conducted its firsttaxiing test on April 21, 2017. The JF-17BBC0001 prototype conducted its maiden flight on April 27, 2017. The JF-17B 02 prototype flew for the first time on December 7, 2017. Currently the 01 prototype (17-601) is conducting test flights at PAC with the pitot tube removed from the nose. The 03 prototype (19-603) conducted its maiden flight on August 3rd, 2018. 26 were reportedly ordered by PAF. The first batch of 8 JF-17Bs (including prototypes) were ready for delivery from PAC in late 2019. A recent image (March 2019) indicated that first customer of JF-17B turned out to be the Myanmar Air Force. So far two JF-17Bs (S/N 1706 & 1707) have been delivered to MAF.
- Last Updated 12/29/19

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## fatman17

China's JF-17 Multirole Jet Could Be A Big Success (Thanks to F-16 'DNA')

JF-17Pakistan
A fusion of the MiG-21 and the F-16 Fighting Falcon.

by Charlie Gao

Key point: The largest advantage of the JF-17 is its cost.

China’s JF-17 “Thunder” multirole fighter is one of China’s most successful aerospace exports. While it was designed from the outset to be an export fighter, its road to service was very rocky, involving decades of development and even American involvement at some points. Design wise, it’s a fusion of the MiG-21 and the F-16 Fighting Falcon. The most recent blocks of the JF-17 have introduced advanced capabilities that nominally put it on par with designs twenty years its senior. But how exactly did the United States help in creating the JF-17? Does the ancient airframe hold it back, or can it be worked around?



The JF-17 evolved out of a series of projects to produce an upgrade for the Pakistani Air Force’s fleet of Chengdu Aircraft Corporation (CAC) J-7 fighters. As Pakistan was one of the primary facilitators of U.S. aid to the anti-Soviet Afghan Mujaheddin, the United States was willing to provide aid to Pakistan in other defense sectors. As the Soviets were preparing to field their next generation lightweight fighter; the MiG-29, Pakistan wanted an aircraft that could counter it.

This resulted in Project Sabre II, an attempt to modernize the J-7s conducted by CAC and Grumman. The original iteration of Sabre II only stretched the fuselage of the J-7, redesigned the control surfaces, and changed the location and size of the air intakes. However the Sabre II was unable to reach the performance of contemporary American fighters or the projected performance of the MiG-29 with this configuration, so Project Sabre II was canned.

However, the three countries decided to have another go at it later in the 1980s, resulting in the “Super 7” project. This time the wingspan was increased and formed into a similar configuration to the F-16 in addition to the prior aerodynamic changes. Grumman pulled out of the Super 7 project in 1989 due to Tiananmen Square and the resulting fallout. The project remained on ice for around 10 years as negotiations between China and Pakistan continued. A feasibility study to see if future development would be fruitful was commissioned in 1992, it was successful so a memorandum to continue development was signed.


In 1998 China and Pakistan recommenced serious development of the Super 7. Costs were split 50/50 between the Pakistani government and CAC and the aircraft was renamed JF-17 As Grumman had dropped out, the fighter needed a new powerplant. A solution was found in the Russian Mikoyan design bureau, which offered the Klimov RD-93 engine which was originally designed for the canceled MiG-33 fighter jet. The RD-93 was an advanced version of the RD-33 used on the MiG-29, however, only one RD-93 is used on the JF-17 in contrast to two RD-33s in a MiG-29.

Another key innovation that occurred during the development process was the inclusion of diverterless supersonic intakes (DSI) on the JF-17 design. The design went through several iterations but is seen on current JF-17 production aircraft. In 2003 the first prototype took to the air. By 2006 the JF-17 was finalized and ready to enter serial production. It was formally adopted in 2007. The first fully Pakistani-manufactured JF-17 was created in 2008.

The JF-17’s designers have proven adept at keeping up with the times following its entry into service. The initial run of fighters for Pakistan have been referred to as Block I JF-17s. Block II JF-17s introduced a multitude of new capabilities and upgrades, including composites in the airframe for reduced weight, air to air refueling, a full fly-by-wire system, and a better radar. China offered to replace the Russian RD-93s with their own WS-13 in Block II JF-17s, but Pakistan opted to stick with the Russian engine.

For the Block III, China hopes to add an AESA radar to the JF-17 and further improve the avionics and weapons compatibility of the JF-17. The standard JF-17 features the MIL-STD-1760 databus in some implementations, allowing for compatibility with Western and Eastern weapons. One potential weakness of the JF-17 is its internal cannon, which is still the double-barrel GSh-23, a legacy of its MiG-21 heritage. This cannon is outperformed by practically any other autocannon mounted on a modern combat aircraft. However, given the relative infrequency of cannon usage in modern air combat, this is not a big issue.

The largest advantage of the JF-17 is its cost. At only 15 million per plane in its most basic configuration, the JF-17 is far cheaper than any of its competitors, even used. Block II JF-17s cost around the same margin, with Myanmar buying them for only 16 million per unit. This has been the key to the JF-17’s export success. A poor nation can field a relatively modern fighter for a very low price. It is yet to be seen whether it can actually perform at its price point in combat, but Pakistan seems to be satisfied with what the JF-17 can do in trials. In many ways, China has updated the budget fighter of the last generation, the MiG-21, for the modern era with the help and additional design cues from the F-16.

Charlie Gao studied political and computer science at Grinnell College and is a frequent commentator on defense and national-security issues.

Image: Reuters

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## fatman17

Defence
Beijing celebrates new year with JF-17, J-20 progress

By Greg Waldron
2 January 2020


The Block III version of the Chengdu/Pakistan Aeronautical Complex JF-17 fighter has conducted its maiden flight, and China appears to be making progress with indigenous engines for the J-20 stealth fighter.

Social media accounts covering Chinese defence aerospace developments were busy over the holidays, with two notable developments.

JF-17 Block III

Source: Weibo @JacKsonbobo

The JF-17 Block III takes off on its maiden sortie.

On 27 December 2019 images emerged of the JF-17 Block III taking flight from AVIC’s production centre in Chengdu. One image showed the jet taking off before a group of seated VIPs, with a banner celebrating the event hanging from a building.


At the Paris air show last June, an official with the programme said the first flight of the Block III would occur before the end of 2019.

Visually, it is hard to detect many differences between earlier versions of the JF-17 and the new Block III. One notable difference appears to be a considerably larger heads-up display similar to that observed on the J-20.

In addition, there appear to be the addition of a radar warning receivers aft of the aircraft intakes and on the tail. At Paris, the programme official said a key structural difference with the Block III would be a larger intake. In early images of the Block III, however, the intake appears similar to the Block I and II.

Irrespective of appearances, the most profound change for the new version will be the addition of an active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar. As of June 2019 the type of radar had yet to be decided, but FlightGlobal understood that two were in contention: the China Electronics Technology Group KLJ-7A, and an AESA from AVIC that it claims is the first air-cooled example. 

The Block III will also have new integrated electronic warfare suite.

J-20 with WS-10

Source: Weibo @JacKsonbobo

The WS-10 engines can be distinguished by the saw-toothed design of the exhaust petals.

Separately, images emerged of a pair of new J-20s apparently powered by the Shenyang WS-10 Taihang engine, as opposed to the upgraded version of the Saturn AL-31 that powers most examples . The WS-10 – which also powers the Shenyang J-11B, an Su-27 clone - features saw-toothed exhaust petals, whereas the AL-31 has flush exhaust petals. Internet observers believe that only four WS-10 powered J-20s have been produced.

The definitive powerplant for the J-20 is understood to be the more powerful Xian Aero Engine WS-15 Emei, but the timeline for its integration and testing are not clear.

Chinese carrier fighter

Source: AVIC via Weibo

The mystery aircraft profile posted by AVIC on Weibo.

Coinciding with the JF-17 and J-20 news, AVIC’s Weibo account published the outline of a stealthy aircraft resembling the developmental FC-31, with a reference to the recent commissioning of Beijing’s second carrier, the CNS Shandong. In Chinese, the caption states “brief introduction to future shipborne fighter.”

The status of the J-31/FC-31 is unclear, but there has been speculation that it will be developed as a carrier-based fighter – there is similar speculation about the larger J-20. Chinese carriers currently operate the J-15, a copy of the Sukhoi Su-33, but reports suggest that the navy has suffered reliability and safety issues with the type.

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## air marshal



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## Windjammer

Karachi Winter Wonderland with a model of JF-17 made entirely from Ice.

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## fatman17

Air Platforms
*PAC Kamra completes production of first batch of JF-17B fighters for Pakistan Air Force*
*Gabriel Dominguez, London* - Jane's Defence Weekly
02 January 2020



The Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) Kamra has completed production of the first eight twin-seat JF-17B Thunder multirole combat aircraft on order for the Pakistan Air Force (PAF).

The aircraft were rolled out on 27 December in a ceremony that attended by the PAF's Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan, and China's Ambassador to Pakistan, Yao Jing, among others.

Speaking at the event, ACM Khan, congratulated both the PAC and the China National Aero-Technology Import & Export Corporation (CATIC) on the "successful accomplishment of [the] 2019 production target and on completing [the] first 8 dual-seat JF-17 aircraft in [a] record time of five months", according to a PAF statement.

Air Platforms
*Sino-Pakistani JF-17/FC-1 Block III prototype makes maiden flight*
*Andreas Rupprecht, Mainz* - Jane's Defence Weekly
02 January 2020


The first Block III prototype of the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex/Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group (PAC/CAIG) JF-17 Thunder/FC-1 Xiaolong multirole combat aircraft has made its maiden flight.

The single-seat aircraft (with serial number ‘3000’) took to the skies on 15 December from CAIG’s production facility at Chengdu-Huangtianba, with the first images of the event appearing some two weeks later on Chinese online forums.

A further development of the Block II variant, the JF-17/FC-1 Block III version appears to be the result of a comprehensive upgrade of the aircraft that is set to include a new active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar.

From the few images that have emerged so far – which show the aircraft armed with two PL-5EII short-range air-to-air-missiles (AAMs) – the most visible changes in the Block III variant are a new wide-angle holographic head-up display – similar to the one used in China’s fifth-generation J-20 fighter aircraft – and an imaging infrared (IIR)-based missile approach warning system – the sensors of which are located behind the engine air intakes as well as on top of the vertical tail fin, similar to those fitted on China’s J-10C fighter.

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## ghazi52

Pakistan Air Force is organising Ski and Winter Sports at Nalter to portray the soft image of Pakistan to the entire world.











__ https://www.facebook.com/


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## musaji

ghazi52 said:


> Pakistan Air Force is organising Ski and Winter Sports at Nalter to portray the soft image of Pakistan to the entire world.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/



Now if only they can use the same music and graphics quality in their other promotions ... :-D


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## airomerix

Reshuffle in the high command taking place. 

For one, Air Marshal Ahmer (nickname: Hammer) to posted as VCAS. Some more postings pending notification.

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## Maxpane

airomerix said:


> Reshuffle in the high command taking place.
> 
> For one, Air Marshal Ahmer (nickname: Hammer) to posted as VCAS. Some more postings pending notification.


sir kheriat ha na?


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## airomerix

Maxpane said:


> sir kheriat ha na?



Oh yes. It is routine. He has spent a good time at PAC.


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## Maxpane

airomerix said:


> Oh yes. It is routine. He has spent a good time at PAC.


ohh tjen fine . i thought msy be because of our neighbour

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## Windjammer

A Block-3 airframe has arrived at PAC Kamra in one of those large Russian Transporters.
Alas, we might see the bird in the Pakistan Day Parade.

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## mingle

Windjammer said:


> A Block-3 airframe has arrived at PAC Kamra in one of those large Russian Transporters.
> Alas, we might see the bird in the Pakistan Day Parade.


Any chance of Italian AESA for blk 3 this time???


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## Nasr

mingle said:


> Any chance of Italian AESA for blk 3 this time???



You can finalize a design and components for a Block aircraft, commission it for serial production and then just willy nilly slap on an AESA radar from another country, can ya? Nope, no chance of an Italian, British or Kangaroo AESA radar on the Block-lll Thunder, at all!

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## fatman17

ASIA DEFENSE | SECURITY | SOUTH ASIA

Pakistan’s JF-17 Block III Fighter Jet Makes Maiden Flight

The single-seat fighter jet took to the skies for the first time last month.

Franz-Stefan Gady
By Franz-Stefan Gady
January 06, 2020

Pakistan’s JF-17 Block III Fighter Jet Makes Maiden Flight

Credit: Chinese Internet

The Pakistan Aeronautical Complex/Chengdu Aerospace Corporation (PAC/CAC) JF-17 “Thunder” Block III multirole fighter aircraft conducted its maiden flight on December 15 in China’s southwestern province of Sichuan, according to Chinese social media reports.

The maiden flight of the JF-17 Block III prototype reportedly took place at CAIG’s production facility at Chengdu-Huangtianba. Images of the aircraft’s take off show the JF-17 Block III armed with PL-5EII short-range air-to-air-missiles (AAMs).

According to an analysis by Jane’s, the new aircraft features a couple of additions over previous systems including a new wide-angle holographic head-up display and a new imaging infrared (IIR)-based missile approach warning system.

While JF-17 Block I and II variants are reportedly powered by a Chinese license-built Klimov RD-93MA turbofan engine, the Block III version of the JF-17 are slated to receive the RD-93MA or Chinese WS-13 engine. As I explained elsewhere:

F-17 Block III fighters will apparently receive a new electronic warfare system, upgraded avionics including a three-axis fly-by-wire digital flight control system, a helmet-mounted display and sight system, and Pakistan’s first Chinese-made active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar system. Two such radar systems are currently under evaluation, according to the PAF Air Chief: the Nanjing Research Institute of Electronics Technology’s KLJ-7A radar and the Leihua Electronic Technology Research Institute’s (LETRI) LKF601E. 


Pakistan is reportedly also still considering Leonardo’s Grifo-E AESA radar system.

The aircraft is expected to operationally deploy with the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) this year. The service is reportedly looking to procure at least 50 JF-17 Block IIIs by 2024, according to the PAF Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan.

The first two aircraft have reportedly already entered production at the Aircraft Manufacturing Factory (AMF) final assembly line at PAC Kamra.

“Production of subassemblies has already started for the first two 50 Block 3 aircraft, to be assembled next year, and will be followed by another 12 in 2021, 2022, 2023, and 2024,” PAC chairman Air Marshall Ahmer Shahzad was quoted as saying by AINonline in 2019. “We will assemble eight dual-seaters this year, followed by 14 in 2020, and the remaining four in 2021.”

PAC and CAC purportedly have an annual production capability of about 25 JF-17 aircraft. As I noted previously:

PAC has reportedly been producing 58 percent of the JF-17s airframe and subsystems — the wings, horizontal tail, vertical tail, and forward fuselage — while CAC produces 42 percent of it including the mid- and rear- fuselages. The aircraft parts arrive from China in kit form for local assembly.

The JF-17 was chiefly designed to replace the PAF’s aging fleet of Chengdu F-7 and Dassault Mirage III/5 fighter jets.

AUTHORS
Franz-Stefan Gady
STAFF AUTHOR
Franz-Stefan Gady
Franz-Stefan Gady is a Senior Editor with The Diplomat. Follow him on Twitter.

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## NA71

Leonardo’s Grifo-E AESA is again popped up.... multiple articles hinting....

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## khanasifm

NA71 said:


> Leonardo’s Grifo-E AESA is again popped up.... multiple articles hinting....



With the integration faculty looks like now pac can go for any sub system and weapons integration ??

So the big question will be $$$ of equipment how much is Grifo vs other radar ?? And price vs performance gain ??

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## PakFactor

NA71 said:


> Leonardo’s Grifo-E AESA is again popped up.... multiple articles hinting....



From public info max range is 92km pointless having a short range radar if the Chinese radar offers a longer range.

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## NA71

I think we are going to have different batches of B3 with different AESAs fitted with. someone has already mentioned in previous posts. (B2s will be upgraded in similar fashion).

We are keeping B3 wide open for both Chinese as well as Western weapon systems.

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## Tank131

mingle said:


> Any chance of Italian AESA for blk 3 this time???





NA71 said:


> Leonardo’s Grifo-E AESA is again popped up.... multiple articles hinting....



Actually the Grifo E-scan is fairly comparable to the KLJ-7A in range (detection for fighter sized aircraft is said to be >45-85NM or 157km vs 170km of the KLJ-7A. Tracking of saod fighter listed as >75NM or 139km). Additionally, leonardo is among the best producers of combat radars (see CAPTOR, RAVEN ES-05) and the radar can also be air or liquid cooled and utilizes GaN meaning it has low power consumption. It is the M-Scan Radar on M346 that has a 92km range. 

The major issue however issue is armament. PAF has a huge cache of Chinese weapons and China's willingness to sell mire advanced weapons (see Pl-15 and Pl-10). Now of Italy can get a weapons package together for PAF there is a possibility but it would need to involve an HMD/S, Meteor, and ASRAAM/IRIS-T, and A2G munitions and allow integration of Pakistan's own weapons (RAAD, H2, H4 ect). Now they have allowed Pakistan to do so in the past (mirages), but that will need to continue. All of that would make it very expensive,so if this happens you would likely only see it on a small number of thunder (likely 2-3 elite squadrons). All of that is to say that the system overapl would need to perform as well as the chinese radars. Beyond this, the chinese radars could theoretically be fit into the blk 1 and 2 aircraft during an MLU and certain systems such as EW suits and HMD/S can be added with minimal cost. So theoretically you could get Chinese weapons for these and if European weapons are able to be sourced, get Grifo E for block 3 aircraft. Any such acquisition however would need to include other systems including brightcloud drfm, possibly skyward irst, and sale of CAMM-ER for airforce and naval use. 



NA71 said:


> I think we are going to have different batches of B3 with different AESAs fitted with. someone has already mentioned in previous posts. (B2s will be upgraded in similar fashion).
> 
> We are keeping B3 wide open for both Chinese as well as Western weapon systems.



I hope to see the Chinese AESA used for MLU in the blk 1 and 2 aircraft given both can be air-cooled

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## Tank131

PakFactor said:


> From public info max range is 92km pointless having a short range radar if the Chinese radar offers a longer range.



That is the Grifo-346 (Mscan) which has a 92km track but 111km detect range. It is the radar which the Grifo E-scan is based on. The E-scan has a at least 157km range (not far off the Chinese radars). They have a liquid cooled version and a smaller compact version which is air cooled.

https://www.leonardocompany.com/en/products/grifo-e

What i want to know is how the Grifo E stacks against vixen 1000E and Raven Es-05 which are also Selex/Leonardo systems.

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## fatman17

*JF-17 Block III Fierce Dragon/Thunder*



The first *JF-17* Block III prototype (#3000) just returned to the CAC airfield from its maiden flight on December 15, 2019. As the latest variant of *JF-17*, Block III carries PAF's ambition to counter IAF's most powerful 3.5th generation fighter Rafale. The aircraft is expected to feature a more powerful engine (WS-13E? 9,000kg class), a new AESA radar developed by NETRI/14th Institute (KLJ-7A, range 170km, track 15, engage 4) or by the 607 Institute (LKF601E, air cooled), HMDS, IRST, upgraded EW suite, new datalink, full authority digital FBW and a variety of air-to-air and air-to-ground guided weapons including PL-10E IIR guided AAM as well as PL-15E active radar homing AAM (using twin launch rails). Additional hard points are installed including ones underneath the engine air intake for ECM or targeting pod. Images of the first flight indicated the *JF-17* Block III prototype features a *J-20* style narrow frame wide-angle holographic HUD (EHUD-2?), a slightly enlarged spine, and new forward MAWS sensors behind the engine air intakes. The rear MAWS sensors were relocated to the EW compartment on top of the vertical tail fin as well. Otherwise the overall aerodynamic configuration remains the unchanged and the aircraft is still powered by the original RD-93 engine.
_- Last Updated 12/29/19_


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## Roller321321

Why is the Rafale mentioned as a 3.5 gen fighter while usually we tend to hear 4.5 gen?


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## Haris Ali2140

Roller321321 said:


> Why is the Rafale mentioned as a 3.5 gen fighter while usually we tend to hear 4.5 gen?


Where???


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## Pakistani Fighter

Tank131 said:


> Actually the Grifo E-scan is fairly comparable to the KLJ-7A in range (detection for fighter sized aircraft is said to be >45-85NM or 157km vs 170km of the KLJ-7A. Tracking of saod fighter listed as >75NM or 139km). Additionally, leonardo is among the best producers of combat radars (see CAPTOR, RAVEN ES-05) and the radar can also be air or liquid cooled and utilizes GaN meaning it has low power consumption. It is the M-Scan Radar on M346 that has a 92km range.
> 
> The major issue however issue is armament. PAF has a huge cache of Chinese weapons and China's willingness to sell mire advanced weapons (see Pl-15 and Pl-10). Now of Italy can get a weapons package together for PAF there is a possibility but it would need to involve an HMD/S, Meteor, and ASRAAM/IRIS-T, and A2G munitions and allow integration of Pakistan's own weapons (RAAD, H2, H4 ect). Now they have allowed Pakistan to do so in the past (mirages), but that will need to continue. All of that would make it very expensive,so if this happens you would likely only see it on a small number of thunder (likely 2-3 elite squadrons). All of that is to say that the system overapl would need to perform as well as the chinese radars. Beyond this, the chinese radars could theoretically be fit into the blk 1 and 2 aircraft during an MLU and certain systems such as EW suits and HMD/S can be added with minimal cost. So theoretically you could get Chinese weapons for these and if European weapons are able to be sourced, get Grifo E for block 3 aircraft. Any such acquisition however would need to include other systems including brightcloud drfm, possibly skyward irst, and sale of CAMM-ER for airforce and naval use.
> 
> 
> 
> I hope to see the Chinese AESA used for MLU in the blk 1 and 2 aircraft given both can be air-cooled


Meteors are expensive


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## Ultimate Weapon

Roller321321 said:


> Why is the Rafale mentioned as a 3.5 gen fighter while usually we tend to hear 4.5 gen?


As per Chineses source Rafale is termed as 3.5 gen, Chinese generations count one less then the world.

World 4.5th gen will called as 3.5 gen in Chinese system.

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## Roller321321

Ultimate Weapon said:


> As per Chineses source Rafale is termed as 3.5 gen, Chinese generations count one less then the world.
> 
> World 4.5th gen will called as 3.5 gen in Chinese system.



Thanks, do you know the reason for it?


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## aliyusuf

Roller321321 said:


> Thanks, do you know the reason for it?


That is how they rate generations ... for them stealth & super-cruise is 4th generation.

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## StormBreaker

Roller321321 said:


> Thanks, do you know the reason for it?


Chinese skipped generation 1 planes and started with second generation planes that were used in WW2.

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## nomi007

Roller321321 said:


> Why is the Rafale mentioned as a 3.5 gen fighter while usually we tend to hear 4.5 gen?


chinese use 4th gen for western and other 5th gen aircrafts

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## khanasifm




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## khanasifm

Interesting 


https://theweek.com/articles/559441/tiny-russian-plane-ridiculous-number-weapons


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## fatman17

Industry
*Pakistan defence committee outlines PAC efficiency requirements*
*Jon Grevatt* - Jane's Defence Weekly
08 January 2020



Pakistan's Standing Committee on Defence Production has outlined requirements for the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) to become more efficient and pursue exports. The priorities were laid out in a statement by the Senate committee on 7 January.

The statement said that the development of the PAC is required to support Pakistan's effort to "develop its combat worthiness [and] to protect its sovereignty and territorial integrity". In line with this objective, the committee said it had identified several "directions" for the PAC.

These included investing in supporting indigenous "innovative research and self-reliance" as well expanded commercialisation through exports.

"Commercialisation of [PAC] products should be the next priority to not only earn much-needed foreign exchange but also to reinforce [Pakistan's] bilateral ties with friendly countries," said the committee.

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## ghazi52



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## mingle

ghazi52 said:


>


Looks beautiful man mini F16

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## Windjammer

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1217108164136488960

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## loanranger

Promotional video

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## Haris Ali2140

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1218229606962036736
@Windjammer@airomerix when did this happened????

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## khanasifm

Another option just in case for both jf and f-16 

Not sure if f-16 will be allowed though. 


https://www.janes.com/article/93778/turkey-tests-air-to-air-missiles

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## khanasifm

Windjammer said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1217108164136488960



Bahrain is very tiny military but very well connected ?? Is pat pushing Mashaq ? Jf?? 
F-5 and hawk replacement ? 

Plus t67m260

https://www.scramble.nl/orbats/bahrain/summary


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## Trailer23

This vid was released on the PAF YouTube page earlier today.

Yeesh. You think they could afford decent _Post Production House_ to do Promotional Videos.





@Hodor @Windjammer @airomerix @Path-Finder @StormBreaker

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## loanranger

Trailer23 said:


> This vid was released on the PAF YouTube page earlier today.
> 
> Yeesh. You think they could afford decent _Post Production House_ to do Promotional Videos.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Hodor @Windjammer @airomerix @Path-Finder @StormBreaker


Vasef bhai genuine any video from your channel on this PAF channel would have instantly increased PAFs channels PR and coolness level. This 30 sec video was absolutely not up to the mark.

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## StormBreaker

Trailer23 said:


> This vid was released on the PAF YouTube page earlier today.
> 
> Yeesh. You think they could afford decent _Post Production House_ to do Promotional Videos.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Hodor @Windjammer @airomerix @Path-Finder @StormBreaker


They should definitely get involved with a dedicated studio for film/documentary/clip productions.

This vid was very nicely made with appropriate music and timings !!!


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## Raider 21

khanasifm said:


> Bahrain is very tiny military but very well connected ?? Is pat pushing Mashaq ? Jf??
> F-5 and hawk replacement ?
> 
> Plus t67m260
> 
> https://www.scramble.nl/orbats/bahrain/summary


Hawk is irreplaceable. The talks were for Super Mushaks primarily and some light on JF-17s for F-5s but they are not up to par for their requirements.


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## Ahmet Pasha

Would be proud to see JF17 BLK3 in Qatari colors. I don't know if Bahrain will buy them.
What happened to Malaysian programme?

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Pakistani Fighter

Knuckles said:


> up to par for their requirements.


What were their requirements?


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## Raider 21

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> What were their requirements?


Air to ground capabilities and maintenance.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Maxpane

Knuckles said:


> Air to ground capabilities and maintenance.


so no chance for jf 17?


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## Raider 21

Maxpane said:


> so no chance for jf 17?


Not for now yes. It is not good enough for their requirements.


----------



## Maxpane

Knuckles said:


> Not for now yes. It is not good enough for their requirements.


thats not good for us. can we fulfill thrir requirements or not?


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## airomerix

Trailer23 said:


> This vid was released on the PAF YouTube page earlier today.
> 
> Yeesh. You think they could afford decent _Post Production House_ to do Promotional Videos.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Hodor @Windjammer @airomerix @Path-Finder @StormBreaker



Write a letter to CAS introducing yourself and your work with a USB enclosed. You will get a call if they deem it fit. 

The address is simple. 

to: Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan, Chief of Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force
Address: Air House, Air Headquarters Islamabad,

And CC this to

DG ISPR, GHQ. 

I hope you will get a response.

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## Raider 21

airomerix said:


> Write a letter to CAS introducing yourself and your work with a USB enclosed. You will get a call if they deem it fit.
> 
> The address is simple.
> 
> to: Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan, Chief of Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force
> Address: Air House, Air Headquarters Islamabad,
> 
> And CC this to
> 
> DG ISPR, GHQ.
> 
> I hope you will get a response.


Man he can barely use his whatsapp on the phone, I doubt he can check the mail.



Maxpane said:


> thats not good for us. can we fulfill thrir requirements or not?


Never bow down to it. If it is not good, move on. You can never satisfy everyone all the time.


----------



## airomerix

Knuckles said:


> Man he can barely use his whatsapp on the phone, I doubt he can check the mail.
> 
> 
> Never bow down to it. If it is not good, move on. You can never satisfy everyone all the time.



You're right. I also know his package will go in a few more hands before reaching him but it is worth a shot. 

All we need is the info to reach his SSO, an Air commodore. He'll take care of the rest.


----------



## Adam_Khan

Maxpane said:


> thats not good for us. can we fulfill thrir requirements or not?



They are flush with cash and when you have so much money then you obviously become picky.


----------



## Trailer23

loanranger said:


> This 30 sec video was absolutely not up to the mark.


Honestly, I could make the exact same video in less than 2hrs...

...and I won't even make this error (below). Throughout the video, there are clips that are widescreen, meaning you see Black Borders (top/Bottom).








StormBreaker said:


> This vid was very nicely made with appropriate music and timings !!!


Well, obviously you and everyone is entitled to their opinion. I thought the vid was...weak. Anyone with a half decent Video Editing software can speed up a clip at 140-150% and get the same result.

I love our Air Force. I just feel that the PR Department is...atrocious. Even the brochures at the DxB Air Show had a small JF-17 upside down on all the pages, which clearly shows that they really aren't interested in this sort of stuff.

@airomerix - During the Air Show I (did) presented a USB to a 'starred' Officer with my work. I even rendered the service of certain PDF Members* without even consulting them first - all because I felt we all could do our bit to promote the PAF. I mean, we spend countless hours discussing which AESA Radar we're gonna chose for the Block III. If we're gonna get the Block 70/72. Should we involve Turkey in Project AZM or not...and so on.

Naturally, this type of stuff is not everyone's forte, but there should be a notion that if you're passionate about something, you should pursue it.

*One PDF Member did contact them. Last I checked, there was no reply in over 2 Weeks.

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## airomerix

Trailer23 said:


> Honestly, I could make the exact same video in less than 2hrs...
> 
> ...and I won't even make this error (below). Throughout the video, there are clips that are widescreen, meaning you see Black Borders (top/Bottom).
> 
> View attachment 600601
> 
> 
> Well, obviously you and everyone is entitled to their opinion. I thought the vid was...weak. Anyone with a half decent Video Editing software can speed up a clip at 140-150% and get the same result.
> 
> I love our Air Force. I just feel that the PR Department is...atrocious. Even the brochures at the DxB Air Show had a small JF-17 upside down on all the pages, which clearly shows that they really aren't interested in this sort of stuff.
> 
> @airomerix - During the Air Show I (did) presented a USB to a 'starred' Officer with my work. I even rendered the service of certain PDF Members* without even consulting them first - all because I felt we all could do our bit to promote the PAF. I mean, we spend countless hours discussing which AESA Radar we're gonna chose for the Block III. If we're gonna get the Block 70/72. Should we involve Turkey in Project AZM or not...and so on.
> 
> Naturally, this type of stuff is not everyone's forte, but there should be a notion that if you're passionate about something, you should pursue it.
> 
> *One PDF Member did contact them. Last I checked, there was no reply in over 2 Weeks.



I get what you're saying. Unless he has 3 or more stars on his collar, that guy wont do jackshit for you. 

If Chief tells a base commander to spend 5 hours on PDF. He'll do it. So the idea is to get in touch with the top. Only then things get done. Especially involving media or public.


----------



## Trailer23

airomerix said:


> Unless he has 3 or more stars on his collar, that guy wont do jackshit for you.


Funny, you mention that. He did.

But its okay. Look, I don't make a penny off my Video Edits. I don't have any form of Social Media platform to promote my YouTube page.

I get PAF stuff made: Shirts, Car Sunshade, Caps...emblem for my car out of my own pocket.

The PAF can easily hire a decent Graphic Designer to design their brochures.

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## Raider 21

airomerix said:


> You're right. I also know his package will go in a few more hands before reaching him but it is worth a shot.
> 
> All we need is the info to reach his SSO, an Air commodore. He'll take care of the rest.


He's my cousin. I know him very well and these guys are more busier than ever these days.


----------



## fatman17

Afghan SU22 war trophy

March 16, 2019 Topic: Security Region: Middle East Blog Brand: The Buzz Tags: PakistanAfghanistanSoviet UnionSoviet-Afghan WarAlexander RutskoyMujahideen
*Pakistan’s F-16s Battled Soviet Jets—and Shot Down the Future Vice President of Russia*

Tragedy.

by Sebastien Roblin

In 1977, General Muhammad Zia-ul-Haq overthrew Pakistan’s civilian president in a coup. He proceeded to institute hardline Islamist laws throughout Pakistan, and began rebuilding Pakistani military power after its defeat in a 1971 war with India.

Following the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in 1979, Washington found that Zia’s policies dovetailed conveniently with getting Pakistani assistance in supporting Mujahideen insurgents fighting Communist forces. Thus, Pakistani and U.S. agents collaborated in organizing and arming militants proliferating in Afghan refugee camps in Pakistan.

In retaliation, Soviet and Democratic Republic of Afghanistan Air Force (DRAAF) jet bombers began crossing into Pakistani airspace to blast those refugee camps. The Pakistani military deployed J-6 fighters (Chinese-built MiG-19 clones) capable of Mach 1 speed and two radars to defend the border, but these proved too slow and the patrol and radar coverage too spotty, so none of the raids were intercepted.

Thus in 1981, Zia persuaded the Reagan administration to authorize sale of forty F-16As and two-seat F-16Bs, which would be received between 1983-1986. The then cutting-edge fourth-generation fighter was affordable, extremely maneuverable due to its aerodynamically unstable design (compensated for with fly-by-wire controls), and could still attain high speeds and carry heavy payloads.

However, early production F-16s lacked the capability to fire radar-guided beyond-visual range missiles. This meant Pakistani Falcons needed to get up close to their opponents to use their AIM-9P and more advanced AIM-9L Sidewinder heat-seeking missiles—or their 20-millimeter Vulcan cannons.

In 1986, the F-16s of the PAF’s No. 9 Griffin and 14 Shaheen squadrons were finally ready to begin flying combat air patrols along the Afghan border. That year, Soviet and Afghan forces began a series of offensive targeting mujahideen bases in the Panshir valley, supported with intensified bombardments of refugee camps. 

On May 17, 1986 two F-16As were vectored towards two DRAAF Su-22M3K penetrating Pakistani airspace near Parachinar. The Sukhois were rugged swing-wing supersonic fighter bombers that often suffered heavy losses in Cold War conflicts.


The PAF F-16s closed within six miles and Squadron Leader Hameed Qadri launched a Sidewinder which failed to hit. The Su-22 promptly belted back for the Afghan border. Qadri fired off a second AIM-9L which first flew wide off the Sukhoi, then curled around and slammed into its target.

In an account published by the PAF, Qadri describes that he raced towards the second Su-22, which he engaged with a gun:


“The other aircraft was in a left turn. His radius of turn and my energy state gave me enough confidence that I could easily achieve kill parameters both with missile and guns. During the turn, I found myself hitting the fringes of AIM-9P missile. I pulled a high yo-yo as I was in a totally offensive position. My target was now in a nose-down and heading towards Afghan territory. After apexing, I quickly rolled back and fired a three-second burst on the exiting Su-22. I stopped firing when a trail of smoke and flash from his aircraft confirmed a lethal kill. Through a split 'S', I headed east of Parachinar.“

However, the Afghan Air Force confirmed losing only one jet, though the engagement led to a major decrease in attacks on refugee camps. Furthermore, the Soviet VVS deployed MiG-23MLD fighters to protect Afghan Su-22s.

Qadri encountered the MiGs a month later, but neither side opened fire. Nearly a year later on April 16 1987, F-16s chased down DRAAF Su-22s again near Thal, managing to overtake the supersonic jets despite having to attack from lower altitude. Squadron Leader Badar-us-Islam shot down the Sukhoi of Lt. Col. Abdul Jameel, who ejected and was captured on Pakistani soil.

By 1987, Soviets records indicate that Pakistani fighters had begun roaming into Afghan airspace—particularly harassing efforts to provide aerial resupply to besieged garrisons like Khost, only ten miles across the border.


On March 30, 1987 two F-16s intercepted an An-26 twin-turboprop cargo plane near Khost, each striking it with one Sidewinder from just under a mile away. The ponderous cargo plane crashed into the snowy mountains below, killing all 39 aboard. Over the course of the conflict, Pakistani F-16 pilots also claimed the destruction of several Mi-8 transports helicopter, another An-26 on a reconnaissance mission in 1989, and a maneuver kill versus an An-24 transport which was actually attempting to defect.

However, the Pakistani fighter jock’s luck turned two weeks later when two No.9 Squadron F-16s ambushed four MiG-23s of the Soviet 120th Fighter Regiment as they plastered a mujahideen supply bases in Djaware, Pakistan with cluster bombs. As Soviet Lt. Col. Pochitalkin led his unit in evasive maneuvers he saw an airplane plummet towards the earth in flames below him.


This was not a MiG, but the F-16 of Lt. Shahi Sikander, who had inadvertently been acquired by an AIM-9L fired by his wingman. Sikander parachuted down to Afghan soil, where he and the wreckage of his plane were smuggled back to Pakistan by Mujahideen. Some Russian sources claim Sikander was actually shot down by a Soviet jet—though the MiGs were not carrying air-to-air missiles—or had somehow plowed into the rain of cluster bomblets.

In 1988, as Soviet ground forces withdrew from Afghanistan, DRAAF and Soviet aviation units began a ferocious new bombardment campaign in a last-ditch effort to save the crumbling Afghan Communist government.


On August 8, Col Alexander Rutskoy, commander of a regiment of slow but heavily armored Su-25 Frogfoot attack jets—was leading a night raid on the Maranshah refugee camp when his four-ship flight was bounced by two F-16As of the 14th fighter squadron. Rutskoy turned hard towards the F-16s, perhaps seeking to draw them away, and believing the heat-seeking missile would lose its track if his plane’s hot tail-pipe was facing away from it. But the AIM-9L was designed to engage targets from all aspects, and the detonations of its proximity warhead broke the “flying tank” in two.

Rutskoy ejected over Pakistani soil and was captured. Exchanged back to Russia, he was decorated as a hero of the Soviet Union and went onto become vice president of Russia under Boris Yeltsin, before leading an attempted coup in 1993.


A month after Rutskoy’s shootdown, a formation of twelve Soviet MiG-23s—eight loaded with bombs, and four carrying R-24 air-to-air missiles, zipped into Pakistani airspace near the Kunar valley at 32,000 feet—probably seeking to lure PAF F-16s into an ambush.

Obligingly, two F-16s raced towards the swing-wing fighters at only 11,000 feet. However, the Soviet radars failed to detect the lower-flying F-16s amidst the ground clutter. A Sidewinder fired at a steep angle by Squadron Leader Khalid Mahmood managed to riddle one MiG-23 with shrapnel, which limped back home for a crash landing. Two MiGs peeled away to engage the F-16s in a dogfight. But while Pakistani pilots claimed two MiG-23 kills, Soviet records show no additional aircraft were lost.


On November 3, 1988 the PAF would bag its final jet kill when Lt. Khalid Mahmood shot down a DRAAF Su-2M4K. Pakistan formally credits its F-16 pilots with 10 kills during the conflict, while Soviet records confirm the loss of three Su-22s, an Su-25 and An-26. Some sources claim the PAF shot down at least a dozen more aircraft during the Soviet war in Afghanistan which ostensibly were not formally credited because they involved violations of Afghan airspace. Those interested in a more extensive accounting of the Pakistani-Afghan air battles are recommended to consult the following compilations of Pakistani air combat narratives.


_Sébastien Roblin holds a master’s degree in conflict resolution from Georgetown University and served as a university instructor for the Peace Corps in China. He has also worked in education, editing, and refugee resettlement in France and the United States. He currently writes on security and military history for War Is Boring._

_Image: Wikimedia_

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## Windjammer



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## Raider 21

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 600693
> 
> Afghan SU22 war trophy
> 
> March 16, 2019 Topic: Security Region: Middle East Blog Brand: The Buzz Tags: PakistanAfghanistanSoviet UnionSoviet-Afghan WarAlexander RutskoyMujahideen
> *Pakistan’s F-16s Battled Soviet Jets—and Shot Down the Future Vice President of Russia*
> 
> Tragedy.
> 
> by Sebastien Roblin
> 
> In 1977, General Muhammad Zia-ul-Haq overthrew Pakistan’s civilian president in a coup. He proceeded to institute hardline Islamist laws throughout Pakistan, and began rebuilding Pakistani military power after its defeat in a 1971 war with India.
> 
> Following the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in 1979, Washington found that Zia’s policies dovetailed conveniently with getting Pakistani assistance in supporting Mujahideen insurgents fighting Communist forces. Thus, Pakistani and U.S. agents collaborated in organizing and arming militants proliferating in Afghan refugee camps in Pakistan.
> 
> In retaliation, Soviet and Democratic Republic of Afghanistan Air Force (DRAAF) jet bombers began crossing into Pakistani airspace to blast those refugee camps. The Pakistani military deployed J-6 fighters (Chinese-built MiG-19 clones) capable of Mach 1 speed and two radars to defend the border, but these proved too slow and the patrol and radar coverage too spotty, so none of the raids were intercepted.
> 
> Thus in 1981, Zia persuaded the Reagan administration to authorize sale of forty F-16As and two-seat F-16Bs, which would be received between 1983-1986. The then cutting-edge fourth-generation fighter was affordable, extremely maneuverable due to its aerodynamically unstable design (compensated for with fly-by-wire controls), and could still attain high speeds and carry heavy payloads.
> 
> However, early production F-16s lacked the capability to fire radar-guided beyond-visual range missiles. This meant Pakistani Falcons needed to get up close to their opponents to use their AIM-9P and more advanced AIM-9L Sidewinder heat-seeking missiles—or their 20-millimeter Vulcan cannons.
> 
> In 1986, the F-16s of the PAF’s No. 9 Griffin and 14 Shaheen squadrons were finally ready to begin flying combat air patrols along the Afghan border. That year, Soviet and Afghan forces began a series of offensive targeting mujahideen bases in the Panshir valley, supported with intensified bombardments of refugee camps.
> 
> On May 17, 1986 two F-16As were vectored towards two DRAAF Su-22M3K penetrating Pakistani airspace near Parachinar. The Sukhois were rugged swing-wing supersonic fighter bombers that often suffered heavy losses in Cold War conflicts.
> 
> 
> The PAF F-16s closed within six miles and Squadron Leader Hameed Qadri launched a Sidewinder which failed to hit. The Su-22 promptly belted back for the Afghan border. Qadri fired off a second AIM-9L which first flew wide off the Sukhoi, then curled around and slammed into its target.
> 
> In an account published by the PAF, Qadri describes that he raced towards the second Su-22, which he engaged with a gun:
> 
> 
> “The other aircraft was in a left turn. His radius of turn and my energy state gave me enough confidence that I could easily achieve kill parameters both with missile and guns. During the turn, I found myself hitting the fringes of AIM-9P missile. I pulled a high yo-yo as I was in a totally offensive position. My target was now in a nose-down and heading towards Afghan territory. After apexing, I quickly rolled back and fired a three-second burst on the exiting Su-22. I stopped firing when a trail of smoke and flash from his aircraft confirmed a lethal kill. Through a split 'S', I headed east of Parachinar.“
> 
> However, the Afghan Air Force confirmed losing only one jet, though the engagement led to a major decrease in attacks on refugee camps. Furthermore, the Soviet VVS deployed MiG-23MLD fighters to protect Afghan Su-22s.
> 
> Qadri encountered the MiGs a month later, but neither side opened fire. Nearly a year later on April 16 1987, F-16s chased down DRAAF Su-22s again near Thal, managing to overtake the supersonic jets despite having to attack from lower altitude. Squadron Leader Badar-us-Islam shot down the Sukhoi of Lt. Col. Abdul Jameel, who ejected and was captured on Pakistani soil.
> 
> By 1987, Soviets records indicate that Pakistani fighters had begun roaming into Afghan airspace—particularly harassing efforts to provide aerial resupply to besieged garrisons like Khost, only ten miles across the border.
> 
> 
> On March 30, 1987 two F-16s intercepted an An-26 twin-turboprop cargo plane near Khost, each striking it with one Sidewinder from just under a mile away. The ponderous cargo plane crashed into the snowy mountains below, killing all 39 aboard. Over the course of the conflict, Pakistani F-16 pilots also claimed the destruction of several Mi-8 transports helicopter, another An-26 on a reconnaissance mission in 1989, and a maneuver kill versus an An-24 transport which was actually attempting to defect.
> 
> However, the Pakistani fighter jock’s luck turned two weeks later when two No.9 Squadron F-16s ambushed four MiG-23s of the Soviet 120th Fighter Regiment as they plastered a mujahideen supply bases in Djaware, Pakistan with cluster bombs. As Soviet Lt. Col. Pochitalkin led his unit in evasive maneuvers he saw an airplane plummet towards the earth in flames below him.
> 
> 
> This was not a MiG, but the F-16 of Lt. Shahi Sikander, who had inadvertently been acquired by an AIM-9L fired by his wingman. Sikander parachuted down to Afghan soil, where he and the wreckage of his plane were smuggled back to Pakistan by Mujahideen. Some Russian sources claim Sikander was actually shot down by a Soviet jet—though the MiGs were not carrying air-to-air missiles—or had somehow plowed into the rain of cluster bomblets.
> 
> In 1988, as Soviet ground forces withdrew from Afghanistan, DRAAF and Soviet aviation units began a ferocious new bombardment campaign in a last-ditch effort to save the crumbling Afghan Communist government.
> 
> 
> On August 8, Col Alexander Rutskoy, commander of a regiment of slow but heavily armored Su-25 Frogfoot attack jets—was leading a night raid on the Maranshah refugee camp when his four-ship flight was bounced by two F-16As of the 14th fighter squadron. Rutskoy turned hard towards the F-16s, perhaps seeking to draw them away, and believing the heat-seeking missile would lose its track if his plane’s hot tail-pipe was facing away from it. But the AIM-9L was designed to engage targets from all aspects, and the detonations of its proximity warhead broke the “flying tank” in two.
> 
> Rutskoy ejected over Pakistani soil and was captured. Exchanged back to Russia, he was decorated as a hero of the Soviet Union and went onto become vice president of Russia under Boris Yeltsin, before leading an attempted coup in 1993.
> 
> 
> A month after Rutskoy’s shootdown, a formation of twelve Soviet MiG-23s—eight loaded with bombs, and four carrying R-24 air-to-air missiles, zipped into Pakistani airspace near the Kunar valley at 32,000 feet—probably seeking to lure PAF F-16s into an ambush.
> 
> Obligingly, two F-16s raced towards the swing-wing fighters at only 11,000 feet. However, the Soviet radars failed to detect the lower-flying F-16s amidst the ground clutter. A Sidewinder fired at a steep angle by Squadron Leader Khalid Mahmood managed to riddle one MiG-23 with shrapnel, which limped back home for a crash landing. Two MiGs peeled away to engage the F-16s in a dogfight. But while Pakistani pilots claimed two MiG-23 kills, Soviet records show no additional aircraft were lost.
> 
> 
> On November 3, 1988 the PAF would bag its final jet kill when Lt. Khalid Mahmood shot down a DRAAF Su-2M4K. Pakistan formally credits its F-16 pilots with 10 kills during the conflict, while Soviet records confirm the loss of three Su-22s, an Su-25 and An-26. Some sources claim the PAF shot down at least a dozen more aircraft during the Soviet war in Afghanistan which ostensibly were not formally credited because they involved violations of Afghan airspace. Those interested in a more extensive accounting of the Pakistani-Afghan air battles are recommended to consult the following compilations of Pakistani air combat narratives.
> 
> 
> _Sébastien Roblin holds a master’s degree in conflict resolution from Georgetown University and served as a university instructor for the Peace Corps in China. He has also worked in education, editing, and refugee resettlement in France and the United States. He currently writes on security and military history for War Is Boring._
> 
> _Image: Wikimedia_


Read Hameed Qadri's (late) account of the Soviet Afghan war. I posted it some time back.

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## hassan1



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## Raider 21

Knuckles said:


> Read Hameed Qadri's (late) account of the Soviet Afghan war. I posted it some time back.


Here is the link to it. 

http://www.defencejournal.com/aug98/pakafghanwar1.htm

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## Haris Ali2140

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1219287998803664897

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## fatman17

Back at PAC Kamra today. Plenty of JF-17s both operational and with AMF. The first of 14 JF-17s to be built this year was on the production line. The new PAC Chairman, Air Marshall Noman, ex #JF-17 CPD who I’ve known for many years found time, for a chat on his first day. https://t.co/4vMEzIYN0B

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## fatman17

I saw a lot of JF-17Bs today at AMF’s flight test station. One with air to air refuelling probe. 14 more two seaters will be delivered this year, adding to the eight handed over in late Dec. Production of the extremely capable Block 3 with AESAradar starts next year.
Alan Warnes.


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## fatman17

First three of 52 Super Mushshaks for the Turkish Air Force are expected to be handed over by end of the year. AMF is on the verge of being awarded another big deal. The Super Mushshak has been revitalised in recent years with the integration of new avionics systems.
Alan Warnes

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## fatman17

While visiting PAC Kamra today I visited the Aircraft Manufacturing Factory where I saw a @GenesysAero avionics system being integrated into a Super Mushshak. AMF has already sold the basic trainer aircraft with @Dynon and @GarminAviation glass cockpits.
Alan Warnes


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## fatman17

The delta winged Mirages have now been serving the Pak AF for over 52 years. And there appears to be no end in sight. They provide a vital capability. One of the Mirage pilots I spoke to flew four missions today including one at night. He clearly loves his job too.


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## fatman17

Flew to Karachi overnight and in the morning headed to the Pak AF Museum to see the contents of the new Op Swift Retort gallery (attached). Very impressive display. https://t.co/X1Dqh8OSTx

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## air marshal

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1219602437008449536

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## fatman17

JF17 with ASELPOD

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## air marshal

*CJCSC lauded valiant response by brave air warriors during Operation Swift Retort*
January 21, 2020

ISLAMABAD: General Nadeem Raza, Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee arrived at Air Headquarters, Islamabad on his maiden visit after assuming the charge of office at Joint Staff Headquarters.

General Nadeem Raza called on Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force in his office. Both the dignitaries discussed matters of professional interest. The Air Chief highlighted various ongoing projects being carried out by PAF.

CJCSC lauded the valiant response by brave air warriors during Operation Swift Retort, in line with the glorious traditions of Pakistan Air Force. He also appreciated the level of motivation among PAF personnel and expressed his confidence in the operational preparedness of Pakistan Air Force.


Earlier, on his arrival, the CJCSC was received by Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force. A smartly turned out contingent of Pakistan Air Force presented him the Guard of Honour. He also laid floral wreath at the Martyrs’ Monument to pay homage to the Martyrs’ of PAF.

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## ghazi52

* F-86 SABRES IN THE FRONT ROW AND BRISTOL TYPE 170 FREIGHTERS IN THE BACK ROW (MARIPUR AIR BASE)

*

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## ghazi52

General Nadeem Raza with Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan. PHOTO: PAF

Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee (CJCSC) General Nadeem Raza on Tuesday paid a maiden visit to the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) headquarters in Islamabad, since assuming the charge of his new portfolio.

General Raza was appointed CJCSC in November last year following the retirement of four-star general Zubair Mahmood Hayat.

He met Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan in his office where the two discussed matters of professional interest, according to an official statement.

“The CJCSC lauded the valiant response by brave air warriors during Operation Swift Retort, in line with the glorious traditions of Pakistan Air Force,” the communique added.


Earlier, upon his arrival at the headquarters the CJCSC was received by the air chief and a “smartly turned out” contingent of PAF presented him the guard of honour.

“He also laid floral wreath at the Martyrs’ Monument to pay homage to martyrs’ of PAF,” the statement concluded.

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## StormBreaker

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1219906026603995136

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## Pakistani Fighter

StormBreaker said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1219906026603995136


Rafale alternative=JF 17 Blk 3???
More numbers Mig29UPGs+SU 30MKIs+Tejas inducted= less number of Thunders to be inducted
Supersonic Brahmos with range b/w 450-600km=Not there


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## Mrc

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Rafale alternative=JF 17 Blk 3???
> More numbers Mig29UPGs+SU 30MKIs+Tejas inducted= less number of Thunders to be inducted
> Supersonic Brahmos with range b/w 450-600km=Not there




There is very little benefit in going Supersonic for a land attack cruise missile

Loss of stealth and very heavy weight means less numbers and less platforms able to carry it. .. And they are not hypersonic means they can still be and will be shot down.
Higher speed gives u higher kinetic energy which is not very useful in land attack but it can cause huge damage to ships .. Warhead for brahmos is 200 kg while most subsonic ones can carry 500 kg plus. brahmos is a antiship missile changed to land attack on customers request. ..

Sub sonic missiles can cause more damage on land carry bigger warheads and remain stealth . Have longer ranges ..

Donot confuse Supersonic with newer hyper sonic weapons mac 5 plus that are extremely difficult to track and shoot down


Brahmos is an excellent missile in antiship role. . I wouldn't fit it into planes in my airforce

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Pakistani Fighter

Mrc said:


> Warhead for brahmos is 200 kg


300 kg for ALCM


----------



## Windjammer

Enter Sargodha.

Reactions: Like Like:
6


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## StormBreaker

Windjammer said:


> Enter Sargodha.
> 
> View attachment 601187


I always wonder, never asked, but what is in front of hud, in the extreme front of cockpit after HUD ? Some random pipes and cables ?



Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Rafale alternative=JF 17 Blk 3???
> More numbers Mig29UPGs+SU 30MKIs+Tejas inducted= less number of Thunders to be inducted
> Supersonic Brahmos with range b/w 450-600km=Not there


O bhai, dekhte jao, Thunder program won’t stop, we will first increase standards through Block 3 and later numbers by vigorous Thunder procurement post Block 3


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1219900259461144576

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1219289299230887937
Is someone here subscribed to AirForces Monthly ?

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## Windjammer

StormBreaker said:


> I always wonder, never asked, but what is in front of hud, in the extreme front of cockpit after HUD ? Some random pipes and cables ?


Most likely cables or pipes from radar, RWR, pitot tube and other sensors leading into the control column and HUD.

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## fatman17

*Thrifty at 50: Pakistan keeps aging Mirages flying*




1 / 3
A Mirage aircraft of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) prepares for a first test run at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex after an overhaul at the Mirage Rebuild Factory (MRF) in Kamra, west of the capital Islamabad. (AFP)




2 / 3
In this file photo, technicians work on a Mirage aircraft during a full overhaul by the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) at the Mirage Rebuild Factory (MRF) in Kamra, west of the capital Islamabad on Dec.27, 2017. (AFP)




3 / 3
In this file photo, technicians work on a Mirage aircraft during a full overhaul by the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) at the Mirage Rebuild Factory (MRF) in Kamra, west of the capital Islamabad on Dec.27, 2017. (AFP)
Updated 29 April 2018
AFP
April 29, 2018 03:45
854
 




KAMRA, Pakistan: The sprawling complex at Kamra, west of Islamabad, reverberates at the thundering take-off of a Mirage Rose-1, the latest aging fighter jet to have been gutted and reassembled by the Pakistani Air Force.
Fifty years after Pakistan bought its first Mirages, many planes in the venerable fleet are still being patched up, overhauled and upgraded for use in combat, years after conventional wisdom dictates they should be grounded.
That includes one of the first two planes originally purchased from France’s Dassault in 1967, which was in a hangar at Kamra after its record fifth overhaul when AFP visited recently.
The techniques they have developed are reminiscent of — but far more high-tech and lethal than — the improvised methods used to keep classic American cars running on the streets of Havana.
“We have achieved such a capability that our experts can integrate any latest system with the aging Mirages,” says Air Commodore Salman M. Farooqi, deputy managing director of the Mirage Rebuild Factory (MRF) at the Kamra complex.
Pakistan bought its first Mirages to diversify its fleet, which in the late 1960s largely consisted of US-built planes: F-104 Starfighters, T-37 Tweety Birds and F-86 Sabres.
The Mirage became a popular choice, with the Air Force buying 17 different variants in later years, eventually owning the second-highest number of the fighter jets after France.
They performed bombing missions during Pakistan’s war with India in 1971 — one of the shortest conflicts in history, lasting just 13 days and leading to the creation of Bangladesh.
But Mirages flew on, also carrying out reconnaissance missions in India, and intercepting and shooting down Soviet and Afghan planes that violated Pakistani airspace during the Soviet war.
Usually, the jet has two or three life cycles, each spanning around 12 years. But overhauling them abroad was expensive for Pakistan, a developing country whose budget is already disproportionately tilted toward its military and which has historically received billions in military assistance from countries such as the US.
So, with the help of experts from Dassault, the air force decided if you want something done for the right price, you’ve got to do it yourself.
The Mirage Rebuild Factory was established at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) in 1978, and in the years since has saved “billions” of dollars for Pakistan, according to Group Captain Muhammad Farooq, in charge of one of the maintenance hangars — though he said the exact figure was difficult to pin down.
The planes take some seven weeks to be overhauled and repainted, he said, adding that usually the MRF has the capacity for more than a dozen planes a year. Its calendar for the next decade or so is already booked up.
At least eight different Mirage variants, including the Mirage 5-EF, Mirage III-DP and Mirage-III Rose-I, were in one of the maintenance hangers when AFP visited.
Engineers and technicians were dismantling cockpit instrument panels and landing gear while undertaking a “non-destructive inspection,” essentially an X-ray to detect faults in the wings and airframe.
Dozens of engines awaiting overhaul were piled in one hangar. Even planes that had suffered accidents such as fires breaking out have been patched back together at the facility.
Pakistan has also been buying up discarded Mirages from other countries to bring through the facility, said retired Air Marshal Shahid Lateef.
The most important technological improvement, developed with the help of South Africa, is the ability to integrate air-to-air refueling, Farooqi said.
The “identification of friend and foe” (IFF) system, which detects when a Mirage has been locked on to by the system of another plane, was also a key development, he said.
But even with the improvements and cost-saving measures, the aging planes are becoming more difficult to maintain.
“They have outlived their lives... after their overhauls (they) have become highly unreliable, we even met with lots of accidents,” Lateef said.
The best option to replace them would be the Rafale, as neighbor and arch-rival India — which has also flown and maintained Mirages for decades — is doing, signing a deal with Dassault in 2016.
The price tag is too much for Pakistan, however, retired Air Commodore Tariq Yazdani said.
Instead Pakistan plans to replace them with the JF-17 Thunder aircraft that it co-developed and co-produced with China, the original manufacturer.
Even as it becomes more urgent to phase them out, Mirages’ status as the grand dames of Pakistani military aviation cannot be dismissed, Yazdani, who has logged 1,500 hours flying them, told AFP.
It is a “very agile aircraft capable of penetrating deep into the enemy’s territory without being detected by radar, which makes its sole mission -– to drop bombs on the enemy’s position -– quite easy,” he said.
“It is an old aircraft,” said aviation writer Alan Warnes, author of two books on the Pakistani air force. “But Pakistani pilots have been flying this plane with the utmost accuracy and expertise.”

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## StormBreaker

fatman17 said:


> *Thrifty at 50: Pakistan keeps aging Mirages flying*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1 / 3
> A Mirage aircraft of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) prepares for a first test run at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex after an overhaul at the Mirage Rebuild Factory (MRF) in Kamra, west of the capital Islamabad. (AFP)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2 / 3
> In this file photo, technicians work on a Mirage aircraft during a full overhaul by the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) at the Mirage Rebuild Factory (MRF) in Kamra, west of the capital Islamabad on Dec.27, 2017. (AFP)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 3 / 3
> In this file photo, technicians work on a Mirage aircraft during a full overhaul by the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) at the Mirage Rebuild Factory (MRF) in Kamra, west of the capital Islamabad on Dec.27, 2017. (AFP)
> Updated 29 April 2018
> AFP
> April 29, 2018 03:45
> 854
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KAMRA, Pakistan: The sprawling complex at Kamra, west of Islamabad, reverberates at the thundering take-off of a Mirage Rose-1, the latest aging fighter jet to have been gutted and reassembled by the Pakistani Air Force.
> Fifty years after Pakistan bought its first Mirages, many planes in the venerable fleet are still being patched up, overhauled and upgraded for use in combat, years after conventional wisdom dictates they should be grounded.
> That includes one of the first two planes originally purchased from France’s Dassault in 1967, which was in a hangar at Kamra after its record fifth overhaul when AFP visited recently.
> The techniques they have developed are reminiscent of — but far more high-tech and lethal than — the improvised methods used to keep classic American cars running on the streets of Havana.
> “We have achieved such a capability that our experts can integrate any latest system with the aging Mirages,” says Air Commodore Salman M. Farooqi, deputy managing director of the Mirage Rebuild Factory (MRF) at the Kamra complex.
> Pakistan bought its first Mirages to diversify its fleet, which in the late 1960s largely consisted of US-built planes: F-104 Starfighters, T-37 Tweety Birds and F-86 Sabres.
> The Mirage became a popular choice, with the Air Force buying 17 different variants in later years, eventually owning the second-highest number of the fighter jets after France.
> They performed bombing missions during Pakistan’s war with India in 1971 — one of the shortest conflicts in history, lasting just 13 days and leading to the creation of Bangladesh.
> But Mirages flew on, also carrying out reconnaissance missions in India, and intercepting and shooting down Soviet and Afghan planes that violated Pakistani airspace during the Soviet war.
> Usually, the jet has two or three life cycles, each spanning around 12 years. But overhauling them abroad was expensive for Pakistan, a developing country whose budget is already disproportionately tilted toward its military and which has historically received billions in military assistance from countries such as the US.
> So, with the help of experts from Dassault, the air force decided if you want something done for the right price, you’ve got to do it yourself.
> The Mirage Rebuild Factory was established at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) in 1978, and in the years since has saved “billions” of dollars for Pakistan, according to Group Captain Muhammad Farooq, in charge of one of the maintenance hangars — though he said the exact figure was difficult to pin down.
> The planes take some seven weeks to be overhauled and repainted, he said, adding that usually the MRF has the capacity for more than a dozen planes a year. Its calendar for the next decade or so is already booked up.
> At least eight different Mirage variants, including the Mirage 5-EF, Mirage III-DP and Mirage-III Rose-I, were in one of the maintenance hangers when AFP visited.
> Engineers and technicians were dismantling cockpit instrument panels and landing gear while undertaking a “non-destructive inspection,” essentially an X-ray to detect faults in the wings and airframe.
> Dozens of engines awaiting overhaul were piled in one hangar. Even planes that had suffered accidents such as fires breaking out have been patched back together at the facility.
> Pakistan has also been buying up discarded Mirages from other countries to bring through the facility, said retired Air Marshal Shahid Lateef.
> The most important technological improvement, developed with the help of South Africa, is the ability to integrate air-to-air refueling, Farooqi said.
> The “identification of friend and foe” (IFF) system, which detects when a Mirage has been locked on to by the system of another plane, was also a key development, he said.
> But even with the improvements and cost-saving measures, the aging planes are becoming more difficult to maintain.
> “They have outlived their lives... after their overhauls (they) have become highly unreliable, we even met with lots of accidents,” Lateef said.
> The best option to replace them would be the Rafale, as neighbor and arch-rival India — which has also flown and maintained Mirages for decades — is doing, signing a deal with Dassault in 2016.
> The price tag is too much for Pakistan, however, retired Air Commodore Tariq Yazdani said.
> Instead Pakistan plans to replace them with the JF-17 Thunder aircraft that it co-developed and co-produced with China, the original manufacturer.
> Even as it becomes more urgent to phase them out, Mirages’ status as the grand dames of Pakistani military aviation cannot be dismissed, Yazdani, who has logged 1,500 hours flying them, told AFP.
> It is a “very agile aircraft capable of penetrating deep into the enemy’s territory without being detected by radar, which makes its sole mission -– to drop bombs on the enemy’s position -– quite easy,” he said.
> “It is an old aircraft,” said aviation writer Alan Warnes, author of two books on the Pakistani air force. “But Pakistani pilots have been flying this plane with the utmost accuracy and expertise.”


Source of article


----------



## nomi007

StormBreaker said:


> Source of article


its an old article


----------



## Raider 21

StormBreaker said:


> Source of article


Very old article. "Yazdani" has been flying Hawks in the middle east for over half a decade.


----------



## StormBreaker

Knuckles said:


> Very old article. "Yazdani" has been flying Hawks in the middle east for over half a decade.


I might sound stupid but what is full form of AFP


----------



## razgriz19

"Non destructive inspection"
That's what I do for a living!!


fatman17 said:


> *Thrifty at 50: Pakistan keeps aging Mirages flying*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1 / 3
> A Mirage aircraft of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) prepares for a first test run at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex after an overhaul at the Mirage Rebuild Factory (MRF) in Kamra, west of the capital Islamabad. (AFP)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2 / 3
> In this file photo, technicians work on a Mirage aircraft during a full overhaul by the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) at the Mirage Rebuild Factory (MRF) in Kamra, west of the capital Islamabad on Dec.27, 2017. (AFP)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 3 / 3
> In this file photo, technicians work on a Mirage aircraft during a full overhaul by the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) at the Mirage Rebuild Factory (MRF) in Kamra, west of the capital Islamabad on Dec.27, 2017. (AFP)
> Updated 29 April 2018
> AFP
> April 29, 2018 03:45
> 854
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KAMRA, Pakistan: The sprawling complex at Kamra, west of Islamabad, reverberates at the thundering take-off of a Mirage Rose-1, the latest aging fighter jet to have been gutted and reassembled by the Pakistani Air Force.
> Fifty years after Pakistan bought its first Mirages, many planes in the venerable fleet are still being patched up, overhauled and upgraded for use in combat, years after conventional wisdom dictates they should be grounded.
> That includes one of the first two planes originally purchased from France’s Dassault in 1967, which was in a hangar at Kamra after its record fifth overhaul when AFP visited recently.
> The techniques they have developed are reminiscent of — but far more high-tech and lethal than — the improvised methods used to keep classic American cars running on the streets of Havana.
> “We have achieved such a capability that our experts can integrate any latest system with the aging Mirages,” says Air Commodore Salman M. Farooqi, deputy managing director of the Mirage Rebuild Factory (MRF) at the Kamra complex.
> Pakistan bought its first Mirages to diversify its fleet, which in the late 1960s largely consisted of US-built planes: F-104 Starfighters, T-37 Tweety Birds and F-86 Sabres.
> The Mirage became a popular choice, with the Air Force buying 17 different variants in later years, eventually owning the second-highest number of the fighter jets after France.
> They performed bombing missions during Pakistan’s war with India in 1971 — one of the shortest conflicts in history, lasting just 13 days and leading to the creation of Bangladesh.
> But Mirages flew on, also carrying out reconnaissance missions in India, and intercepting and shooting down Soviet and Afghan planes that violated Pakistani airspace during the Soviet war.
> Usually, the jet has two or three life cycles, each spanning around 12 years. But overhauling them abroad was expensive for Pakistan, a developing country whose budget is already disproportionately tilted toward its military and which has historically received billions in military assistance from countries such as the US.
> So, with the help of experts from Dassault, the air force decided if you want something done for the right price, you’ve got to do it yourself.
> The Mirage Rebuild Factory was established at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) in 1978, and in the years since has saved “billions” of dollars for Pakistan, according to Group Captain Muhammad Farooq, in charge of one of the maintenance hangars — though he said the exact figure was difficult to pin down.
> The planes take some seven weeks to be overhauled and repainted, he said, adding that usually the MRF has the capacity for more than a dozen planes a year. Its calendar for the next decade or so is already booked up.
> At least eight different Mirage variants, including the Mirage 5-EF, Mirage III-DP and Mirage-III Rose-I, were in one of the maintenance hangers when AFP visited.
> Engineers and technicians were dismantling cockpit instrument panels and landing gear while undertaking a “non-destructive inspection,” essentially an X-ray to detect faults in the wings and airframe.
> Dozens of engines awaiting overhaul were piled in one hangar. Even planes that had suffered accidents such as fires breaking out have been patched back together at the facility.
> Pakistan has also been buying up discarded Mirages from other countries to bring through the facility, said retired Air Marshal Shahid Lateef.
> The most important technological improvement, developed with the help of South Africa, is the ability to integrate air-to-air refueling, Farooqi said.
> The “identification of friend and foe” (IFF) system, which detects when a Mirage has been locked on to by the system of another plane, was also a key development, he said.
> But even with the improvements and cost-saving measures, the aging planes are becoming more difficult to maintain.
> “They have outlived their lives... after their overhauls (they) have become highly unreliable, we even met with lots of accidents,” Lateef said.
> The best option to replace them would be the Rafale, as neighbor and arch-rival India — which has also flown and maintained Mirages for decades — is doing, signing a deal with Dassault in 2016.
> The price tag is too much for Pakistan, however, retired Air Commodore Tariq Yazdani said.
> Instead Pakistan plans to replace them with the JF-17 Thunder aircraft that it co-developed and co-produced with China, the original manufacturer.
> Even as it becomes more urgent to phase them out, Mirages’ status as the grand dames of Pakistani military aviation cannot be dismissed, Yazdani, who has logged 1,500 hours flying them, told AFP.
> It is a “very agile aircraft capable of penetrating deep into the enemy’s territory without being detected by radar, which makes its sole mission -– to drop bombs on the enemy’s position -– quite easy,” he said.
> “It is an old aircraft,” said aviation writer Alan Warnes, author of two books on the Pakistani air force. “But Pakistani pilots have been flying this plane with the utmost accuracy and expertise.”


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

StormBreaker said:


> I might sound stupid but what is full form of AFP


*Agence France-Presse*

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## denel

fatman17 said:


> *Thrifty at 50: Pakistan keeps aging Mirages flying*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1 / 3
> A Mirage aircraft of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) prepares for a first test run at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex after an overhaul at the Mirage Rebuild Factory (MRF) in Kamra, west of the capital Islamabad. (AFP)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2 / 3
> In this file photo, technicians work on a Mirage aircraft during a full overhaul by the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) at the Mirage Rebuild Factory (MRF) in Kamra, west of the capital Islamabad on Dec.27, 2017. (AFP)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 3 / 3
> In this file photo, technicians work on a Mirage aircraft during a full overhaul by the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) at the Mirage Rebuild Factory (MRF) in Kamra, west of the capital Islamabad on Dec.27, 2017. (AFP)
> Updated 29 April 2018
> AFP
> April 29, 2018 03:45
> 854
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KAMRA, Pakistan: The sprawling complex at Kamra, west of Islamabad, reverberates at the thundering take-off of a Mirage Rose-1, the latest aging fighter jet to have been gutted and reassembled by the Pakistani Air Force.
> Fifty years after Pakistan bought its first Mirages, many planes in the venerable fleet are still being patched up, overhauled and upgraded for use in combat, years after conventional wisdom dictates they should be grounded.
> That includes one of the first two planes originally purchased from France’s Dassault in 1967, which was in a hangar at Kamra after its record fifth overhaul when AFP visited recently.
> The techniques they have developed are reminiscent of — but far more high-tech and lethal than — the improvised methods used to keep classic American cars running on the streets of Havana.
> “We have achieved such a capability that our experts can integrate any latest system with the aging Mirages,” says Air Commodore Salman M. Farooqi, deputy managing director of the Mirage Rebuild Factory (MRF) at the Kamra complex.
> Pakistan bought its first Mirages to diversify its fleet, which in the late 1960s largely consisted of US-built planes: F-104 Starfighters, T-37 Tweety Birds and F-86 Sabres.
> The Mirage became a popular choice, with the Air Force buying 17 different variants in later years, eventually owning the second-highest number of the fighter jets after France.
> They performed bombing missions during Pakistan’s war with India in 1971 — one of the shortest conflicts in history, lasting just 13 days and leading to the creation of Bangladesh.
> But Mirages flew on, also carrying out reconnaissance missions in India, and intercepting and shooting down Soviet and Afghan planes that violated Pakistani airspace during the Soviet war.
> Usually, the jet has two or three life cycles, each spanning around 12 years. But overhauling them abroad was expensive for Pakistan, a developing country whose budget is already disproportionately tilted toward its military and which has historically received billions in military assistance from countries such as the US.
> So, with the help of experts from Dassault, the air force decided if you want something done for the right price, you’ve got to do it yourself.
> The Mirage Rebuild Factory was established at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) in 1978, and in the years since has saved “billions” of dollars for Pakistan, according to Group Captain Muhammad Farooq, in charge of one of the maintenance hangars — though he said the exact figure was difficult to pin down.
> The planes take some seven weeks to be overhauled and repainted, he said, adding that usually the MRF has the capacity for more than a dozen planes a year. Its calendar for the next decade or so is already booked up.
> At least eight different Mirage variants, including the Mirage 5-EF, Mirage III-DP and Mirage-III Rose-I, were in one of the maintenance hangers when AFP visited.
> Engineers and technicians were dismantling cockpit instrument panels and landing gear while undertaking a “non-destructive inspection,” essentially an X-ray to detect faults in the wings and airframe.
> Dozens of engines awaiting overhaul were piled in one hangar. Even planes that had suffered accidents such as fires breaking out have been patched back together at the facility.
> Pakistan has also been buying up discarded Mirages from other countries to bring through the facility, said retired Air Marshal Shahid Lateef.
> The most important technological improvement, developed with the help of South Africa, is the ability to integrate air-to-air refueling, Farooqi said.
> The “identification of friend and foe” (IFF) system, which detects when a Mirage has been locked on to by the system of another plane, was also a key development, he said.
> But even with the improvements and cost-saving measures, the aging planes are becoming more difficult to maintain.
> “They have outlived their lives... after their overhauls (they) have become highly unreliable, we even met with lots of accidents,” Lateef said.
> The best option to replace them would be the Rafale, as neighbor and arch-rival India — which has also flown and maintained Mirages for decades — is doing, signing a deal with Dassault in 2016.
> The price tag is too much for Pakistan, however, retired Air Commodore Tariq Yazdani said.
> Instead Pakistan plans to replace them with the JF-17 Thunder aircraft that it co-developed and co-produced with China, the original manufacturer.
> Even as it becomes more urgent to phase them out, Mirages’ status as the grand dames of Pakistani military aviation cannot be dismissed, Yazdani, who has logged 1,500 hours flying them, told AFP.
> It is a “very agile aircraft capable of penetrating deep into the enemy’s territory without being detected by radar, which makes its sole mission -– to drop bombs on the enemy’s position -– quite easy,” he said.
> “It is an old aircraft,” said aviation writer Alan Warnes, author of two books on the Pakistani air force. “But Pakistani pilots have been flying this plane with the utmost accuracy and expertise.”


This was in the Mirage thread. Old but gold!

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Windjammer

Not long ago, the pilot of this Viper was sitting behind a desk in Washington, now he is a base commander and the other day went up in a Viper for an air display....pity it was low cloud cover.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Raider 21

Windjammer said:


> Not long ago, the pilot of this Viper was sitting behind a desk in Washington, now he is a base commander and the other day went up in a Viper for an air display....pity it was low cloud cover.
> 
> View attachment 601229


Great guy, gave me good career advice some time back. One of the first bunch of guys to break the 2k in Vipers and setting a standard.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Incog_nito

Is PAF going to acquire some trainers from EU:
50 M345
50 M346

besides the dual seat JF-17 these aircraft are really a very good option to enhance PAF training.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## fatman17

IM Ozair said:


> Is PAF going to acquire some trainers from EU:
> 50 M345
> 50 M346
> 
> besides the dual seat JF-17 these aircraft are really a very good option to enhance PAF training.


100 trainers sounds ridiculous

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## fatman17

Arab news. It's 2 years old just found it in my archive


StormBreaker said:


> Source of article

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## fatman17

*India and Pakistan Aerial Battle*
By
David Oliver
-
March 4, 2019



IAF MiG-21 Bison.


 

 
_*David Oliver –* *For the first time in the 21st Century, the air forces of India and Pakistan are becoming involved in air combat.*_

Following the terrorist attack which killed forty Indian personnel and injured five on February 14 by a suicide bomber of Pakistan-based terror group in Indian-administered Kashmir, the Indian Air Force (IAF) 2000Hs launched an airstrike guided by the EMB-145 Netra AEW&C aircraft against suspected militant bases in Pakistan territory during the night of 26 February. In response Pakistan Air Force (PAF) fighters launched airstrikes on ‘non-military’ targets on 27 February claiming they were clear areas in Indian-administered Kashmir across the Line of Control (LoC) and that there were no casualties on the ground.

What happened next is disputed but it is clear that IAF MiG-21 Bisons, the latest variant of an aircraft that saw action in the 1971 the war with Pakistan, were scramble to intercept the attacking PAF aircraft. In the following air battle, the IAF claimed to have shot down one PAF aircraft while the PAF claimed to have shot down two IAF aircraft with its F-16s although this has not been confirmed.

The IAF later admitted that it had lost on MiG-21 and that the pilot appeared to have been captured by Pakistan forces after ejecting. The second IAF aircraft claimed by the PAF has not been confirmed nor has the PAF aircraft claimed to have been shot down by the IAF.

The Pakistan government’s official Twitter account released a video of what it claimed was one of the Indian pilots who had been shot down. The man, whose face was bloodied and blindfolded, gives his name and service number, before telling a man questioning him: “I’m sorry sir, that’s all I’m supposed to tell you.” An Indian government official speaking on 28 February that there would be no deal on Air Force pilot captured by Pakistan, and that the government expected that he is returned immediately. The captured IAF pilot, Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman, was released on 1 March.

In the immediate aftermath of the air battle, the IAF ordered Kashmir’s main airport in Srinagar along with at least three others in neighbouring states to close and Pakistan shut its airspace, with commercial flights in the country cancelled and flights from the Middle East and India were also affected.

In a separate incident, and IAF Mi-17V-5 crashed at Budgam in Indian-administered Kashmir on 27 February en route from Srinagar Airport. Six military personnel were killed in the crash but the cause is unclear.

_by David Oliver_

*More Chinese UAVs for Pakistan?*
Published in Show Daily 2018 - Day 2

By
Asian Military Review
-
January 16, 2019





 

 
_*Chinese firms are lining up to meet a potential interest in medium altitude long endurance (MALE) unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) for the Pakistan Air Force (PAF).* _

The service is already operating the tactical-class NESCOM Barruq, which appears to be a derivative of the China Aerospace Science and Technology Corporation (CASC)’s CH-3 design. However, PAF is understood to be seeking higher-end UAV capabilities, and has been linked to several Chinese-made UAVs.

China National Aero-Technology Import & Export Corporation (CATIC), the export arm of Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC), is actively marketing the Wing Loong family of armed reconnaissance UAVs.

Developed and manufactured by AVIC’s Chengdu Aircraft Design and Research Institute subsidiary, the Wing Loong I has a 14 metre wingspan and a maximum take-off weight of 1,200kg, and is presently in People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) service as the Gongji-1.

The company has also developed the larger and more capable Wing Loong II, which has a 4,200kg MTOW with wingspan of 20.5m. CATIC states that the Wing Loong II has a stated internal payload capacity of 200kg, with provision for up to 480kg of external stores. A large fuel capacity enables it to fly for up to 20 hours. Likewise, the Wing Loong II has been acquired by the PLAAF, and serves under the name of Gongji-2.

Meanwhile Aerospace Long-March International Trade (ALIT) is marketing the internationally popular CH-4 UAV, which has a flight endurance between 14-30 hours depending on its configuration. The CH-4, which has a MTOW of up to 1,330kg and payload capacity of 345kg, has gained a respectable following around the world since its introduction in 2014, with at least 30 of these air vehicles now flying in countries such as Algeria, Iraq, and Jordan.

The company has also developed the larger and more capable CH-5, which was introduced in 2016 and subsequently fully developed in 2017. The air vehicle can carry a wide range of precision munitions, which would appeal to countries seeking an affordable and persistent airborne strike capability.


----------



## Pakistani Fighter

fatman17 said:


> *India and Pakistan Aerial Battle*
> By
> David Oliver
> -
> March 4, 2019
> 
> 
> 
> IAF MiG-21 Bison.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _*David Oliver –* *For the first time in the 21st Century, the air forces of India and Pakistan are becoming involved in air combat.*_
> 
> Following the terrorist attack which killed forty Indian personnel and injured five on February 14 by a suicide bomber of Pakistan-based terror group in Indian-administered Kashmir, the Indian Air Force (IAF) 2000Hs launched an airstrike guided by the EMB-145 Netra AEW&C aircraft against suspected militant bases in Pakistan territory during the night of 26 February. In response Pakistan Air Force (PAF) fighters launched airstrikes on ‘non-military’ targets on 27 February claiming they were clear areas in Indian-administered Kashmir across the Line of Control (LoC) and that there were no casualties on the ground.
> 
> What happened next is disputed but it is clear that IAF MiG-21 Bisons, the latest variant of an aircraft that saw action in the 1971 the war with Pakistan, were scramble to intercept the attacking PAF aircraft. In the following air battle, the IAF claimed to have shot down one PAF aircraft while the PAF claimed to have shot down two IAF aircraft with its F-16s although this has not been confirmed.
> 
> The IAF later admitted that it had lost on MiG-21 and that the pilot appeared to have been captured by Pakistan forces after ejecting. The second IAF aircraft claimed by the PAF has not been confirmed nor has the PAF aircraft claimed to have been shot down by the IAF.
> 
> The Pakistan government’s official Twitter account released a video of what it claimed was one of the Indian pilots who had been shot down. The man, whose face was bloodied and blindfolded, gives his name and service number, before telling a man questioning him: “I’m sorry sir, that’s all I’m supposed to tell you.” An Indian government official speaking on 28 February that there would be no deal on Air Force pilot captured by Pakistan, and that the government expected that he is returned immediately. The captured IAF pilot, Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman, was released on 1 March.
> 
> In the immediate aftermath of the air battle, the IAF ordered Kashmir’s main airport in Srinagar along with at least three others in neighbouring states to close and Pakistan shut its airspace, with commercial flights in the country cancelled and flights from the Middle East and India were also affected.
> 
> In a separate incident, and IAF Mi-17V-5 crashed at Budgam in Indian-administered Kashmir on 27 February en route from Srinagar Airport. Six military personnel were killed in the crash but the cause is unclear.
> 
> _by David Oliver_
> 
> *More Chinese UAVs for Pakistan?*
> Published in Show Daily 2018 - Day 2
> 
> By
> Asian Military Review
> -
> January 16, 2019
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _*Chinese firms are lining up to meet a potential interest in medium altitude long endurance (MALE) unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) for the Pakistan Air Force (PAF).* _
> 
> The service is already operating the tactical-class NESCOM Barruq, which appears to be a derivative of the China Aerospace Science and Technology Corporation (CASC)’s CH-3 design. However, PAF is understood to be seeking higher-end UAV capabilities, and has been linked to several Chinese-made UAVs.
> 
> China National Aero-Technology Import & Export Corporation (CATIC), the export arm of Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC), is actively marketing the Wing Loong family of armed reconnaissance UAVs.
> 
> Developed and manufactured by AVIC’s Chengdu Aircraft Design and Research Institute subsidiary, the Wing Loong I has a 14 metre wingspan and a maximum take-off weight of 1,200kg, and is presently in People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) service as the Gongji-1.
> 
> The company has also developed the larger and more capable Wing Loong II, which has a 4,200kg MTOW with wingspan of 20.5m. CATIC states that the Wing Loong II has a stated internal payload capacity of 200kg, with provision for up to 480kg of external stores. A large fuel capacity enables it to fly for up to 20 hours. Likewise, the Wing Loong II has been acquired by the PLAAF, and serves under the name of Gongji-2.
> 
> Meanwhile Aerospace Long-March International Trade (ALIT) is marketing the internationally popular CH-4 UAV, which has a flight endurance between 14-30 hours depending on its configuration. The CH-4, which has a MTOW of up to 1,330kg and payload capacity of 345kg, has gained a respectable following around the world since its introduction in 2014, with at least 30 of these air vehicles now flying in countries such as Algeria, Iraq, and Jordan.
> 
> The company has also developed the larger and more capable CH-5, which was introduced in 2016 and subsequently fully developed in 2017. The air vehicle can carry a wide range of precision munitions, which would appeal to countries seeking an affordable and persistent airborne strike capability.


No Pakistan based Terror Groups
We claimed JF 17s shot jets
We later told second jet was SU 30
Mi 17v5 didnt crashed but was shot down in a friendly fire


----------



## Mir Shahzain

Windjammer said:


> Not long ago, the pilot of this Viper was sitting behind a desk in Washington, now he is a base commander and the other day went up in a Viper for an air display....pity it was low cloud cover.
> 
> View attachment 601229


Has PAF finalized any radar for JF-17 Block III ???


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## Talon

Windjammer said:


> Not long ago, the pilot of this Viper was sitting behind a desk in Washington, now he is a base commander and the other day went up in a Viper for an air display....pity it was low cloud cover.
> 
> View attachment 601229


They had to make three or four passes for landing.Weather was very bad and finding the runway wasn't easy.

He's sitting in the back btw.


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## fatman17

It shows foreign media mindset


Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> No Pakistan based Terror Groups
> We claimed JF 17s shot jets
> We later told second jet was SU 30
> Mi 17v5 didnt crashed but was shot down in a friendly fire


----------



## Incog_nito

fatman17 said:


> 100 trainers sounds ridiculous


Come on. 
M345 is a basic & intermediate Jet Trainer.
M346 is an advance Jet Trainer + LIFT.

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## fatman17

*Super Mushshaks, Super Popular!*
Published in Show Daily 2018 - Day 1

By
Alan Warnes
-
January 9, 2019



The 260hp Super Mushshak training aircraft has gained a new lease of life since a new glass cockpit has been integrated. (Alan Warnes)



 
_*The Super Mushshak trainer aircraft has seen a renaissance in its popularity since being fitted with a digital ‘glass cockpit’.* _

After sales to Qatar Air Force (eight) and Nigeria (10) in 2016, manufacturer Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) won its biggest export order to the Turkish Air Force for 52 aircraft in April 2017. This was followed in July 2017, by a sale of another ten to Azerbaijan.

In the space of a year or so, PAC had racked up the sale of 80 Super Mushshaks. The government owned facility is offering the 260hp piston aircraft, with options for two different glass cockpit configurations.

The Turkish AF has selected the Garmin 950 avionics suite for its aircraft, which will replace its fleet of SF260s and Cessna T-41s based at Izmir-Kaklic and Istanbul-Yesilkoy for student pilot and undergraduate training respectively. All 52 aircraft are being delivered over the next three years. The previous PAC Chairman, Air Marshal Arshad Malik, signed the deal with Turkey’s Undersecretary for Defence Industries Professor Dr. Ismail Demir, at the International Defence Exhibition and Fair (IDEF) in Istanbul in May, 2017. It came nine months after the Super Mushshak had been selected in August 2016.

The Qatar Air Force examples have all been all fitted with Garmin 950 avionics too, while the ten aircraft for Nigeria, are operated with a Dynon avionics suite. The Nigerian Air Force was initially loaned three PAC-owned and one PAF aircraft to train instructor pilots before the ten new aircraft were delivered in 2017. It is unclear which avionics system Azerbaijan selected.

The PAF’s Asghar Khan Academy operates around 60 Super Mushshaks for basic flying training and a number of them have been upgraded with the glass cockpit to train student pilots. New life has been breathed into a trainer that, PAC’s Aircraft Manufacturing Factory has been assembling and manufacturing since 1975. Until 2017, the last export customer was the Saudi Arabian Air Force which purchased 20 aircraft in 2003.

 

https://asianmilitaryreview.com/?bsa_pro_id=86&bsa_pro_url=1

TAGS
PAC
Pakistan Aeronautical Complex
Qatar Air Force
Super Mushshak
Turkish Air Force
Previous articleChinese Mining Firm turns Cruise Missile Developer
Next articlePakistan Air Force builds for the future



Alan Warnes
Alan has travelled to over 60 countries writing/taking photos of military aircraft and enjoying the many cultures he has encountered. Since 2001 has been a regular visitor to the Pakistan Air Force (PAF). He has written two books on the PAF. @warnesyworld
 

*Pakistan Air Force builds for the future*
Published in Show Daily 2018 - Day 1

By
Alan Warnes
-
January 10, 2019



PAF Chief of the Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan took over in March this year. (Alan Warnes)



 
_*Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan, Chief of the Air Staff (CAS), talks to IDEAS show daily correspondent Alan Warnes.*_

Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force (PAF) knows a thing about pressure. He previously served as the Assistant Chief of Air Staff (Operations) which is probably the second most demanding job in the PAF.

The PAF is on a constant state of alert along all of its borders. In the west, it has been supporting the Army against the terrorists Pakistan is trying to eliminate, while on the northern, eastern and southern boundaries comes a threat from its bigger neighbours.

There have been two wars with India and several serious stand-offs since Pakistan was founded in 1947 and the threats are growing more sophisticated through newer technologies.

The CAS’ role is to provide stability, leadership and vision for the PAF, which is regarded as one of the most professional air forces in the region. “My main role is to ensure continuity of policies and operational preparedness,” he explained at the Zhuhai Air Show in early November.

”But I am trying to build a broader and longer vision – _Building a Next Generation PAF for_ _2047_ when the PAF will be 100 years old”.

*Next Generation Fighter*
Spearheading that vision is the development of a 5th Generation aircraft. “We can’t afford to lag behind others”.

Regional stability is undoubtedly the focus of his concern. “The geo-political and geo-strategic situation means that we have to maintain a strategic balance in the region and we need to be build it up now”.

We know that when other countries have inducted new generation fighter aircraft, they have been badly prepared for the training. Developing a new generation aircraft is always a difficult proposition, but over the years the PAF has succeeded in facing these challenges.

“I want to make sure that we have certain potent capacities and capabilities right across our aircraft, battle systems and our training too. Education will play a big part in that. It might seem a long time away but with technologies continuing to evolve at such a fast pace we have to remain focused on what that could be.

The PAF has been working on a 5th Generation fighter for almost a year now and it is likely to take at least a couple of years before it is flying. “It is indigenous at this time – we will be self-reliant and not dependent upon western or eastern partners”.

That is a tall task, considering the Chinese have struggled to develop indigenous power plants for their own fighters, but the Chief is adamant and aware of the huge challenges the PAF faces on this project. It will of course have to be ITAR-free, because Pakistan has suffered so many times in the past from United States sanctions.

“It will be collaborated with private industry and our academia. Our Aviation City is being built up now, that will one day work towards building a brighter future for our aerospace industry. Aviation education is almost non-existent in Pakistan and we need to fix that. We are setting up our own aviation hub and now formulating our vision which will cover manufacturing facilities and laboratories”.

“We have recently opened up a new university too, albeit in a make-shift location and we will link all of this to developing our own 5th Generation fighter and commercial aircraft”.

*Training*
Right now the PAF fulfils its training requirements on the elderly Cessna T-37 and Hongdu K-8s. But the Chief needs something more modern. “We are upgrading the T-37s with a glass cockpit, just as we have the Super Mushshak previously”.

That’s the futuristic approach – we have to adapt them to our needs. It’s the first step.

“For future lead-in fighter training, we have evaluated certain aircraft which included the Hongdu L-15 and Leonardo M346. There might be shortfalls in some aircraft, but if they can fulfil our air staff requirements”.






The Chief’s predecessor, Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman flew in the Leonardo M346 before he retired, to look at the jet-trainer’s capabilities as a LIFT. (Leonardo)
“Pakistan is a third-world country, and it might not have the same resources and finances that others might have in the region. So when the PAF does evaluate something, it is evaluated thoroughly”.

Everyone in the industry knows that the PAF are hard taskmasters, and if they want to sell to the PAF, it will evaluated from every angle. “But once we have bought something, the companies are usually very keen to market our acquisition”.

On the future, the CAS finished, “We know where we are going and we know what we need to get there”.

*Chinese Mining Firm turns Cruise Missile Developer*
Published in Show Daily 2018 - Day 1

By
Asian Military Review
-
January 3, 2019





 

 
_*Guangdong Hongda Blasting Company, a Guangzhou-based firm that specialises in commercial explosives and mining equipment, stunned the world in early October when it announced that it had successfully launched and tested a supersonic cruise missile called the HD-1.*_

Further details of the missile development were subsequently released by the company. These revealed that the HD-1 is a land-based precision strike weapon with a maximum range of 290km and can travel at speeds between Mach 2.2-3.5 depending on its flight profile. It can perform sea skimming anti-ship operations flying at 5-10 metres above the waves, or cruise at altitudes of up to 15km before diving down for a top attack on its target.

The HD-1 employs ramjet propulsion technology to attain its high speed, but requires a booster rocket to achieve height and sufficient speed to engage its ramjets. It is aimed at the export market and can also be adapted for air- and ship-launch operations, which expands its utility for potential customers.

Pakistan’s rapidly evolving missile arsenal forms an important part of its defence strategy and currently comprises mobile short and medium-range ballistic missiles, but it is also making significant strides into its indigenous cruise missile capability. However, its present Hatf 7 and in-development Hatf 8 cruise missiles are all subsonic types, which are less survivable in highly defended airspace.

In this context there could be a potential interest by Pakistan to acquire a capability that could match the Russo-Indian BrahMos (PJ-10) series of supersonic cruise missiles designed to be launched from land-based platforms, as well as ships, aircraft and submarines. The land- and ship-launched variants of the BrahMos are already in service with the Indian armed forces, while the air-launched version is undergoing testing.

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## hassan1



Reactions: Like Like:
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## DrWatson775

hassan1 said:


> . The PAF has been working on a 5th Generation fighter for almost a year now and it is likely to take at least a couple of years before it is flying.



Hope this is not a typo. Aiming high. Come to think about it, better to get a prototype flying early and spend more time on practical testing and integration and then move back and forth between drawing boards and testing.


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## Windjammer




----------



## Pakistani Fighter

fatman17 said:


> The PAF has been working on a 5th Generation fighter for almost a year now and it is likely to take *at least a couple of years before it is flying.* “It is indigenous at this time – we will be self-reliant and not dependent upon western or eastern partners”.


What? @airomerix



fatman17 said:


> Pakistan’s rapidly evolving missile arsenal forms an important part of its defence strategy and currently comprises mobile short and medium-range ballistic missiles, but it is also making significant strides into its indigenous cruise missile capability. However, its present Hatf 7 and in-development Hatf 8 cruise missiles are all subsonic types, which are less survivable in highly defended airspace.
> 
> In this context there could be a potential interest by Pakistan to acquire a capability that could match the Russo-Indian BrahMos (PJ-10) series of supersonic cruise missiles designed to be launched from land-based platforms, as well as ships, aircraft and submarines. The land- and ship-launched variants of the BrahMos are already in service with the Indian armed forces, while the air-launched version is undergoing testing.


An off topic but people here really used to say to me how Subsonic missiles are better than Supersonic but this article says otherwise


----------



## airomerix

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> What? @airomerix
> 
> 
> An off topic but people here really used to say to me how Subsonic missiles are better than Supersonic but this article says otherwise



5th generation development homework has been in works since 2015.

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## mingle

airomerix said:


> 5th generation development homework has been in works since 2015.


Engine???


----------



## razgriz19

Does Pakistan operate MC12 intelligence and reconnaissance aircraft?

I learned something very interesting about it


----------



## StormBreaker

If Turkey also gets SU-35 from Russia, I don’t see PAF NOT pursuing SU-35 in near future, like after 3 years or something.

China already operates SU-35, India has been trying to distance itself from russia lately, in many tenders. Russia and Pakistan relations are on a journey like never before, still a long way to go, but we are headed on a track which is in good terms with Russia.

Especially if Russia invests in Pakistan and makes use of it, it would like to do MORE with Pakistan.

Although, the contradicting scenario is, india re-opts for T-50, which has a potential to
Happen in cases :


PAF gets some squadrons of FC-31 (v3 is expected to fly soon and is said to be better than F-35 in some aspects and overall far better than it’s earlier variants)
PAF gets some Chinese flankers or V upgrades for the whole fleet (V upgrades for whole fleet will definitely leave india panicked no matter what they buy)
AMCA doesn’t go as they expected it to happen.
Russia improvises T-50 to match the standards and succeeds in their engine project
*All these points are highlighting about in which cases india might opt for T-50s.
*
We at the moment can’t rule out the possibility of India acquiring F-35 if uncle sam have some desperate interests with india. Although, S-400 and F-35 together would be a rare case but india has been a rare case in many other situations as well be it iranian oil.

So back to SU-35, SU-35 would be the best ever choice we make before AZM. AZM is just on papers at the moment. Although wind tunnel testing will, is or may be done at the moment (refer to MoDP report about Wind Tunnel plans for PAC) but AZM is very far and that would be 2030-32 and God knows where world would be at that time, peace or war or destroyed.

It is inevitable that PAF will/Should get a deep strike fighter for PAF or PN in medium term, right when Block 3 production is nearing its current limit. We could possibly see our economy even booming or getting better, giving us some edge to get these toys.


BUT, even though just my wish or call it anything, SU-35 with J-20 radar and Chinese AAMs, nothing would be better in 4++ class than this SU-35P. Russia wouldn’t seem to allow this at the moment, but like said, we should persuade them, NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE IN THIS WORLD EXCEPT TIME TRAVEL AND KEEPING A WIFE HAPPY FOREVER.

@Windjammer @Mangus Ortus Novem @HRK @aliyusuf @Hodor 

Kuch naya karne ko nai hai isliye socha wapas wohi batein shuro karden, bohat din se bekar topics chalrahe hain...

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## StormBreaker

Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> O Charmer!!!!
> 
> Let me frame it differently...
> 
> What is Pakistan's current GAP when all 9 Vectors of War are considered?
> 
> And if we have a rational answer then what would be the bestest investement and in which Vector?
> 
> I would rather that instead of buy any 4th++ Gen we invest in JF and AZM...but most importantly build factory/factroies to produe aero engines under licence in Pakistan...
> 
> Another CurveBall for ya... what is Pakistan's Defence Capability in the Global Scenario? Should we forever remain India centric?
> 
> Mangus


That’s another way of looking at it with a wider and broader perspective.

Reminds me, China has been a blessing for us, given that there are possible assurances from China to provide necessary highly critical weapons and platforms as assistance or lease during war which is less likely, we have got a room to instead improvise ourselves while invest in maturing industry instead of worrying About adversaries.

Nice

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## Ghost 125

razgriz19 said:


> Does Pakistan operate MC12 intelligence and reconnaissance aircraft?
> 
> I learned something very interesting about it


Yes i think Army (MI) operates 2 or 3 for intelligence and survielence and in fact 1 crashed in rawalpindi last year

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## aliyusuf

StormBreaker said:


> If Turkey also gets SU-35 from Russia, I don’t see PAF NOT pursuing SU-35 in near future, like after 3 years or something.
> 
> China already operates SU-35, India has been trying to distance itself from russia lately, in many tenders. Russia and Pakistan relations are on a journey like never before, still a long way to go, but we are headed on a track which is in good terms with Russia.
> 
> Especially if Russia invests in Pakistan and makes use of it, it would like to do MORE with Pakistan.
> 
> Although, the contradicting scenario is, india re-opts for T-50, which has a potential to
> Happen in cases :
> 
> 
> PAF gets some squadrons of FC-31 (v3 is expected to fly soon and is said to be better than F-35 in some aspects and overall far better than it’s earlier variants)
> PAF gets some Chinese flankers or V upgrades for the whole fleet (V upgrades for whole fleet will definitely leave india panicked no matter what they buy)
> AMCA doesn’t go as they expected it to happen.
> Russia improvises T-50 to match the standards and succeeds in their engine project
> *All these points are highlighting about in which cases india might opt for T-50s.
> *
> We at the moment can’t rule out the possibility of India acquiring F-35 if uncle sam have some desperate interests with india. Although, S-400 and F-35 together would be a rare case but india has been a rare case in many other situations as well be it iranian oil.
> 
> So back to SU-35, SU-35 would be the best ever choice we make before AZM. AZM is just on papers at the moment. Although wind tunnel testing will, is or may be done at the moment (refer to MoDP report about Wind Tunnel plans for PAC) but AZM is very far and that would be 2030-32 and God knows where world would be at that time, peace or war or destroyed.
> 
> It is inevitable that PAF will/Should get a deep strike fighter for PAF or PN in medium term, right when Block 3 production is nearing its current limit. We could possibly see our economy even booming or getting better, giving us some edge to get these toys.
> 
> 
> BUT, even though just my wish or call it anything, SU-35 with J-20 radar and Chinese AAMs, nothing would be better in 4++ class than this SU-35P. Russia wouldn’t seem to allow this at the moment, but like said, we should persuade them, NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE IN THIS WORLD EXCEPT TIME TRAVEL AND KEEPING A WIFE HAPPY FOREVER.
> 
> @Windjammer @Mangus Ortus Novem @HRK @aliyusuf @Hodor
> 
> Kuch naya karne ko nai hai isliye socha wapas wohi batein shuro karden, bohat din se bekar topics chalrahe hain...


I think if we can muster or negotiate the finances, then, we are more likely to have access to more powerful AESA radars, Advanced EW Suite, Advanced AAM + AGM + ASM + SAM from China. Latch on as many of these on to the Thunder's coming iterations as possible and increase production capacity. 

Till AZM's NGF becomes a reality, this arrangement will do quite adequately. 

It is my opinion that China has surpassed Russia in electronics by leaps and bounds. And modern warfare primarily evolves around the supremacy of electronics of avionics, active & passive sensors ... like radars, RWRs and jammers. Also Chinese missiles are a better bet than their Russian counterparts.

Also, in that context, if we should require a stop gap ... then an updated Sino Flanker (J-16 or J-15B) would be a much more effective and combat savvy choice for the PAF instead of the Su-35. 

That is my humble opinion on the topic.

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## StormBreaker

aliyusuf said:


> I think if we can muster or negotiate the finances, then, we are more likely to have access to more powerful AESA radars, Advanced EW Suite, Advanced AAM + AGM + ASM + SAM from China. Latch on as many of these on to the Thunder's coming iterations as possible and increase production capacity.
> 
> Till AZM's NGF becomes a reality, this arrangement will do quite adequately.
> 
> It is my opinion that China has surpassed Russia in electronics by leaps and bounds. And modern warfare primarily evolves around the supremacy of electronics of avionics, active & passive sensors ... like radars, RWRs and jammers. Also Chinese missiles are a better bet than their Russian counterparts.
> 
> Also, in that context, if we should require a stop gap ... then an updated Sino Flanker (J-16 or J-15B) would be a much more effective and combat savvy choice for the PAF instead of the Su-35.
> 
> That is my humble opinion on the topic.


I emphasized on SU-35 simply due to its design and RCS unlike J-16, J-15B but with systems and weapons if China.

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## airomerix

So my nephew ruined a really classy Block 52+ D model of PAF. Looks like the missing AMRAAMs will be found in India. 

Now accepting condolences.

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## mingle

airomerix said:


> So my nephew ruined a really classy Block 52+ D model of PAF. Looks like the missing AMRAAMs will be found in India.
> 
> Now accepting condolences.
> 
> View attachment 602280
> View attachment 602281
> View attachment 602282


Any news about more of these birds along V upgrades???


----------



## Raider 21

StormBreaker said:


> *If Turkey also gets SU-35 from Russia*, I don’t see PAF NOT pursuing SU-35 in near future, like after 3 years or something.
> 
> China already operates SU-35, India has been trying to distance itself from russia lately, in many tenders. Russia and Pakistan relations are on a journey like never before, still a long way to go, but we are headed on a track which is in good terms with Russia.
> 
> Especially if Russia invests in Pakistan and makes use of it, it would like to do MORE with Pakistan.
> 
> Although, the contradicting scenario is, india re-opts for T-50, which has a potential to
> Happen in cases :
> 
> 
> PAF gets some squadrons of FC-31 (v3 is expected to fly soon and is said to be better than F-35 in some aspects and overall far better than it’s earlier variants)
> PAF gets some Chinese flankers or V upgrades for the whole fleet (V upgrades for whole fleet will definitely leave india panicked no matter what they buy)
> AMCA doesn’t go as they expected it to happen.
> Russia improvises T-50 to match the standards and succeeds in their engine project
> *All these points are highlighting about in which cases india might opt for T-50s.
> *
> We at the moment can’t rule out the possibility of India acquiring F-35 if uncle sam have some desperate interests with india. Although, S-400 and F-35 together would be a rare case but india has been a rare case in many other situations as well be it iranian oil.
> 
> So back to SU-35, SU-35 would be the best ever choice we make before AZM. AZM is just on papers at the moment. Although wind tunnel testing will, is or may be done at the moment (refer to MoDP report about Wind Tunnel plans for PAC) but AZM is very far and that would be 2030-32 and God knows where world would be at that time, peace or war or destroyed.
> 
> It is inevitable that PAF will/Should get a deep strike fighter for PAF or PN in medium term, right when Block 3 production is nearing its current limit. We could possibly see our economy even booming or getting better, giving us some edge to get these toys.
> 
> 
> BUT, even though just my wish or call it anything, SU-35 with J-20 radar and Chinese AAMs, nothing would be better in 4++ class than this SU-35P. Russia wouldn’t seem to allow this at the moment, but like said, we should persuade them, NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE IN THIS WORLD EXCEPT TIME TRAVEL AND KEEPING A WIFE HAPPY FOREVER.
> 
> @Windjammer @Mangus Ortus Novem @HRK @aliyusuf @Hodor
> 
> Kuch naya karne ko nai hai isliye socha wapas wohi batein shuro karden, bohat din se bekar topics chalrahe hain...


If TuAF pursue the Su-35 then a lot of their annual flight time amongst fighter guys will reduce drastically. The Russian jets require a ton of maintenance to maintain NATO standard level of annual flight time for fighter pilots.

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## aliyusuf

StormBreaker said:


> I emphasized on SU-35 simply due to its design and RCS unlike J-16, J-15B but with systems and weapons if China.


Russia may not be too thrilled with the option of selling it's Su-35s with Chinese goodies. That would mean it's own munitions won't get sold.

The J-16 and J-15B already have a much reduced RCS than the original Su-27 from which all subsequent Flankers have originated. But still not on the same league as the Su-35 in regards to RCS. But Su-35s radar is a PESA and is not an LPI radar like the AESA radars of it's Chinese cousins (i.e. J-16 and J-15B). So when the Su-35 opens up with it's PESA it's low RCS is offset by the broadcasting electromagnetic beacon sent out by it's Irbis-E PESA radar. Here is where it will be at a disadvantage. Furthermore, Chinese PL-15 and PL-XX both have AESA seekers ... the Su-35's RWRs will have tough time picking them up until too late when these missiles go pitbull. But that is how I see it and I am certainly no expert.

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## StormBreaker

airomerix said:


> So my nephew ruined a really classy Block 52+ D model of PAF. Looks like the missing AMRAAMs will be found in India.
> 
> Now accepting condolences.
> 
> View attachment 602280
> View attachment 602281
> View attachment 602282


Where to get this block d model?


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## airomerix

StormBreaker said:


> Where to get this block d model?



All 2 star and above got a set when a shipment came in. I'm not sure from where but i can check. Its an AHQ thing. Whenever something like this comes along everyone in the upper brass gets a sample. 

And no i'm not a two star. 



mingle said:


> Any news about more of these birds along V upgrades???



No update.

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## LKJ86

StormBreaker said:


> I emphasized on SU-35 simply due to its design and RCS unlike J-16, J-15B but with systems and weapons if China.


Why do you think Su-35 has a much reduced RCS?


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## StormBreaker

LKJ86 said:


> Why do you think Su-35 has a much reduced RCS?


Evidently because of the lack of canards and russian claims.

Furthermore, they might have used more composites on airframe and taken measures on intakes to reduce direct engine heat signatures


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## LKJ86

StormBreaker said:


> russian claims


Can you provide the sources?


StormBreaker said:


> taken measures on intakes to reduce direct engine heat signatures


Intakes ~ direct engine heat signatures ???
Are you seriously?


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## StormBreaker

StormBreaker said:


> Evidently because of the lack of canards and russian claims.
> 
> Furthermore, they might have used more composites on airframe and taken measures on intakes to reduce direct engine heat signatures





Austin Powers said:


> *Russian stealth researchers have developed materials and techniques that can reduce the head-on radar cross-section (RCS) of a Sukhoi Su-35 fighter by an order of magnitude, halving the range at which hostile radars can detect it. The research group - working with Sukhoi, but based at the Institute for Theoretical and Applied Electromagnetics (ITAE) at the Russian Academy of Sciences in Moscow - has performed more than 100 hours of testing on a reduced-RCS Su-35 and has also experimented with the use of plasmas - ionized gases - to reduce RCS.
> 
> "A problem of huge size" is how the researchers describe the Su-35 inlet, with a straight duct that provides direct visibility to the entire face of the engine compressor. The basic solution has been to apply ferro-magnetic radar absorbent material (RAM) to the compressor face and to the inlet duct walls, but this involves challenges. The researchers note: the material cannot be allowed to constrict airflow or impede the operation of anti-icing systems and must withstand high-speed airflows and temperatures up to 200°C. The ITAE team has developed and tested coating materials that meet these standards. A layer of RAM between 0.7mm and 1.4mm thick is applied to the ducts and a 0.5mm coating is applied to the front stages of the low-pressure compressor, using a robotic spray system. The result is a 10-15dB reduction in the RCS contribution from the inlets.
> 
> The modified Su-35 also has a treated cockpit canopy which reflects radar waves, concealing the high RCS contribution from metal components in the cockpit. ITAE has developed a plasma-deposition process to deposit alternating layers of metallic and polymer materials, creating a coating that blocks radio-frequency waves, is resistant to cracking and crazing and does not trap solar heat in the cockpit. The plasma-coating process is then carried out robotically in a 22 m3 vacuum chamber.
> 
> ITAE and its partners have also developed plasma-type technology for applying ceramic coatings to the exhaust and afterburner. The conference video also showed the use of hand-held sprays to apply RAM to R-27 air-to-air missiles.
> 
> https://www.fighter-planes.com/stealth2.htm*


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## araz

Knuckles said:


> If TuAF pursue the Su-35 then a lot of their annual flight time amongst fighter guys will reduce drastically. The Russian jets require a ton of maintenance to maintain NATO standard level of annual flight time for fighter pilots.


Agreed. TUAF will most likely not persue SU 35s but instead concentrate on their 5th generation venture. They have enough 16s and infrastructure to maintain them so it is not likely that they are desperate for anything at the moment. The most intriguing prospect for me is the possibility of Pak Turk collaboration on an advanced NGF version of JFT ideally with EJ200 uprated engines for Turkey( Pak might want to continue with the RD series having made its inveatment for maintenance). Now that is a thought worth drooling on.
A

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## StormBreaker

araz said:


> Agreed. TUAF will most likely not persue SU 35s but instead concentrate on their 5th generation venture. They have enough 16s and infrastructure to maintain them so it is not likely that they are desperate for anything at the moment. The most intriguing prospect for me is the possibility of Pak Turk collaboration on an advanced NGF version of JFT ideally with EJ200 uprated engines for Turkey( Pak might want to continue with the RD series having made its inveatment for maintenance). Now that is a thought worth drooling on.
> A


Wouldn’t we need Chinese permission to seek turkey as a partner for another Joint Pak-Turk Block ? Will China even allow such ?

I can only see that happening IF we just use the airframe and all systems are NON-Chinese, in easy words, When özgur upgrade avionics are ready. These turkish ozgur systems can be used to produce a Turkish Thunder alongside Pak. We on the other hand can later on integrate our current inventory of Weapons to our Turk Block Thunders without getting turks involved with Chinese source codes...

If Turkey doesn’t go for other fighters, chances are higher that they might beef up their current numbers by adding light but lethal Fighters like Thunder. Another reason they would do that would be to portray Our level of cooperation and Friendship just like Mushak’s case, Ada corvettes or Agosta upgrades.

If PAF opts for Hurjet, chances would be higher than ever that Turkey might actually procure some thunders.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

StormBreaker said:


> Wouldn’t we need Chinese permission to seek turkey as a partner for another Joint Pak-Turk Block ? Will China even allow such ?
> 
> I can only see that happening IF we just use the airframe and all systems are NON-Chinese, in easy words, When özgur upgrade avionics are ready. These turkish ozgur systems can be used to produce a Turkish Thunder alongside Pak. We on the other hand can later on integrate our current inventory of Weapons to our Turk Block Thunders without getting turks involved with Chinese source codes...
> 
> If Turkey doesn’t go for other fighters, chances are higher that they might beef up their current numbers by adding light but lethal Fighters like Thunder. Another reason they would do that would be to portray Our level of cooperation and Friendship just like Mushak’s case, Ada corvettes or Agosta upgrades.
> 
> If PAF opts for Hurjet, chances would be higher than ever that Turkey might actually procure some thunders.


As far as Turkey is concerned, the Hurjet is an alternative to the JF-17. Sure, it's on the lighter side, but its engine class is about as good as any other lightweight fighter.



araz said:


> Agreed. TUAF will most likely not persue SU 35s but instead concentrate on their 5th generation venture. They have enough 16s and infrastructure to maintain them so it is not likely that they are desperate for anything at the moment. The most intriguing prospect for me is the possibility of Pak Turk collaboration on an advanced NGF version of JFT ideally with EJ200 uprated engines for Turkey( Pak might want to continue with the RD series having made its inveatment for maintenance). Now that is a thought worth drooling on.
> A


Forget JF-17 Block-IV, if you _really _want to day dream, imagine a scenario where the PAF calls it a day on the JF-17 after the Block-III, and then switches to the Hurjet as its future low-cost platform (to work with the FGFA). In truth, the Hurjet _*is *_the Westernized lightweight fighter the PAF dreamed of in the late 1980s.

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## StormBreaker

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> As far as Turkey is concerned, the Hurjet is an alternative to the JF-17. Sure, it's on the lighter side, but its engine class is about as good as any other lightweight fighter.


Trainer is always a trainer buddy, it could never fulfill multiroles to the cap of thunders due to wing loading, HPs and most importantly range and space for advanced systems such as those we saw incorporated on 3000



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> As far as Turkey is concerned, the Hurjet is an alternative to the JF-17. Sure, it's on the lighter side, but its engine class is about as good as any other lightweight fighter.
> 
> 
> Forget JF-17 Block-IV, if you _really _want to day dream, imagine a scenario where the PAF calls it a day on the JF-17 after the Block-III, and then switches to the Hurjet as its future low-cost platform (to work with the FGFA). In truth, the Hurjet _*is *_the Westernized lightweight fighter the PAF dreamed of in the late 1980s.


It would be just a paisa phenk buddy.

This budget can be better used on speeding up AZM, or some other heavy platforms in small numbers.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

StormBreaker said:


> Trainer is always a trainer buddy, it could never fulfill multiroles to the cap of thunders due to wing loading, HPs and most importantly range and space for advanced systems such as those we saw incorporated on 3000


The baseline Hurjet will use an engine as powerful as (and more efficient than) the RD-93. It will have a payload of 3,000 kg and max altitude of 45,000 ft. There's nothing (besides time and money) stopping the Turks from working the design up even further to come up with a Gripen/Tejas-class fighter (it's mostly there already). 

As for 'advanced systems,' the Turks will load the Hurjet with their own AESA radar, integrated EW/ECM suite, and HMD/S (from TF-X), plus their own bevy of indigenous AAMs, SOWs, AShM, PGBs, LGB, EW pod, etc. And never mind the other attributes, e.g., relaxed stability, heavier use of composite materials, etc.

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## LKJ86

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The baseline Hurjet will use an engine as powerful as (and more efficient than) the RD-93. It will have a payload of 3,000 kg and max altitude of 45,000 ft. There's nothing (besides time and money) stopping the Turks from working the design up even further to come up with a Gripen/Tejas-class fighter (it's mostly there already).
> 
> As for 'advanced systems,' the Turks will load the Hurjet with their own AESA radar, integrated EW/ECM suite, and HMD/S (from TF-X), plus their own bevy of indigenous AAMs, SOWs, AShM, PGBs, LGB, EW pod, etc. And never mind the other attributes, e.g., relaxed stability, heavier use of composite materials, etc.


When will Hurjet be ready?


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## StormBreaker

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> As far as Turkey is concerned, the Hurjet is an alternative to the JF-17. Sure, it's on the lighter side, but its engine class is about as good as any other lightweight fighter.
> 
> 
> Forget JF-17 Block-IV, if you _really _want to day dream, imagine a scenario where the PAF calls it a day on the JF-17 after the Block-III, and then switches to the Hurjet as its future low-cost platform (to work with the FGFA). In truth, the Hurjet _*is *_the Westernized lightweight fighter the PAF dreamed of in the late 1980s.


Although, i would be very much interested to see PAF deciding up on 5th Gen trainer should it be off the shelf or self developed.

Either Hondu L-15 or a JF-17B2 (new variant of B) with 5th gen cockpit, sensor fusion, technologies. We will have 5th gen systems (except for stealth), by 2026-27, practice on it, gain experience, learn by it to further modify AZM’s systems and aspects and when AZM is inducted, we will be in a much experienced position to use it in combats sooner instead of waiting for AZM the waiting another 5-7 years for being ready to use it in battlefield through rigorous practice.
We have China which is already fielding multiple 5th gen platforms so we can use this card to get as much 5th gen on thunder trainers as possible except for stealth so that AZM can become a true 5+/6th gen while our pilots are already 5th gen experienced without actually possessing any 5th gen platforms in our air force.

Secondly, no sane person/Air force would use Stealth fighters for heavy training similar to how we directly jump our pilots to thunders post CCS. Operating stealth aircrafts comes with almost double maintenance cost compared to our current costs so it would be wise to get some good trainers which are also best to use for combat and low cost, so an upgraded Block B thunder with 5th Gen elements should definitely come post Block 3 or if Block 4 arrives.



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The baseline Hurjet will use an engine as powerful as (and more efficient than) the RD-93. It will have a payload of 3,000 kg and max altitude of 45,000 ft. There's nothing (besides time and money) stopping the Turks from working the design up even further to come up with a Gripen/Tejas-class fighter (it's mostly there already).
> 
> As for 'advanced systems,' the Turks will load the Hurjet with their own AESA radar, integrated EW/ECM suite, and HMD/S (from TF-X), plus their own bevy of indigenous AAMs, SOWs, AShM, PGBs, LGB, EW pod, etc. And never mind the other attributes, e.g., relaxed stability, heavier use of composite materials, etc.


I am glad, they are doing such. Do they have any plans to modify the design heavily so as to make it look more like a fighter, and sink in the cockpit lower ?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

LKJ86 said:


> When will Hurjet be ready?


They're aiming to fly it in 2022/2023.


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## LKJ86

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> They're aiming to fly it in 2022/2023.


I mean when it will be in service?


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## Goku

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> They're aiming to fly it in 2022/2023.


First prototype , u mean??


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

StormBreaker said:


> Although, i would be very much interested to see PAF deciding up on 5th Gen trainer should it be off the shelf or self developed.
> 
> Either Hondu L-15 or a JF-17B2 (new variant of B) with 5th gen cockpit, sensor fusion, technologies. We will have 5th gen systems (except for stealth), by 2026-27, practice on it, gain experience, learn by it to further modify AZM’s systems and aspects and when AZM is inducted, we will be in a much experienced position to use it in combats sooner instead of waiting for AZM the waiting another 5-7 years for being ready to use it in battlefield through rigorous practice.
> We have China which is already fielding multiple 5th gen platforms so we can use this card to get as much 5th gen on thunder trainers as possible except for stealth so that AZM can become a true 5+/6th gen while our pilots are already 5th gen experienced without actually possessing any 5th gen platforms in our air force.
> 
> Secondly, no sane person/Air force would use Stealth fighters for heavy training similar to how we directly jump our pilots to thunders post CCS. Operating stealth aircrafts comes with almost double maintenance cost compared to our current costs so it would be wise to get some good trainers which are also best to use for combat and low cost, so an upgraded Block B thunder with 5th Gen elements should definitely come post Block 3 or if Block 4 arrives.
> 
> 
> I am glad, they are doing such. Do they have any plans to modify the design heavily so as to make it look more like a fighter, and sink in the cockpit lower ?


The first crop of FGFA/AZM pilots will probably be ex-F-16/JF-17/Mirage operators, and they'll probably train on simulators. In fact, I think FGFAs in the PAF would likely be a capstone for experienced pilots, especially as AZM would probably spearhead the PAF's offensive edge in the future (for which flawless execution is key).



Goku said:


> First prototype , u mean??


Yep.



LKJ86 said:


> I mean when it will be in service?


Realistically, I'm guessing late 2020s or early 2030s.

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## LKJ86

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Realistically, I'm guessing late 2020s or early 2030s.


At that moment, what will China or Pakistan have?

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

LKJ86 said:


> At that moment, what will China or Pakistan have?


JF-17 Block-IV or V if we're lucky


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## Pakistani Fighter

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> JF-17 Block-IV or V if we're lucky


So Hurjet will be a 4.5 gen jet ryt? Why would Pakistan want Hurjet when we can have J10Cs?


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## araz

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The baseline Hurjet will use an engine as powerful as (and more efficient than) the RD-93. It will have a payload of 3,000 kg and max altitude of 45,000 ft. There's nothing (besides time and money) stopping the Turks from working the design up even further to come up with a Gripen/Tejas-class fighter (it's mostly there already).
> 
> As for 'advanced systems,' the Turks will load the Hurjet with their own AESA radar, integrated EW/ECM suite, and HMD/S (from TF-X), plus their own bevy of indigenous AAMs, SOWs, AShM, PGBs, LGB, EW pod, etc. And never mind the other attributes, e.g., relaxed stability, heavier use of composite materials, etc.


I understand where you are coming from but the Hurjet is a cooked project in which PAF will have little or no input. I dont like the idea of PAC losing its skill set to a Turkish project. We will either have a joint ccollaboration on JFT in which case the Turkish skill dset will further augment what has been gained by PAF/PAC.
A

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

araz said:


> I understand where you are coming from but the Hurjet is a cooked project in which PAF will have little or no input. I dont like the idea of PAC losing its skill set to a Turkish project. We will either have a joint ccollaboration on JFT in which case the Turkish skill dset will further augment what has been gained by PAF/PAC.
> A


Ultimately, I think a better idea would be to consider developing a replacement to the JF-17 by using the expertise and technology from the Thunder and Project Azm. So, while Project Azm becomes our offensive/maritime asset (as it's a twin-engine design), we should have a next-gen lightweight fighter to replace the JF-17s.

In this case, you could perhaps re-open the JF-17's design so that it can take on Project Azm's engine as well as new electronics (e.g., radar, EW/ECM, avionics, etc). Or use the aircraft development expertise and technology of Azm to develop a clean sheet single engine fighter. So, use the same engine as Azm, but design the fighter around heavy composite use, relaxed stability, etc, while still keeping it relatively (for a NGF) simple and low-cost platform.

That or we go an entirely different direction by consolidating our entire manned fighter fleet on only Project Azm, and then complement it with UAVs (loyal wingman drones, stealthy attack UAVs, etc).

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## LKJ86

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> JF-17 Block-IV or V if we're lucky


China would have already stopped the production of 4th-generation fighters (like J-10 or J-16) at that moment, and maybe J-20 equipped with WS-15 engines has been allowed to be exported.

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## araz

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Ultimately, I think a better idea would be to consider developing a replacement to the JF-17 by using the expertise and technology from the Thunder and Project Azm. So, while Project Azm becomes our offensive/maritime asset (as it's a twin-engine design), we should have a next-gen lightweight fighter to replace the JF-17s.
> 
> In this case, you could perhaps re-open the JF-17's design so that it can take on Project Azm's engine as well as new electronics (e.g., radar, EW/ECM, avionics, etc). Or use the aircraft development expertise and technology of Azm to develop a clean sheet single engine fighter. So, use the same engine as Azm, but design the fighter around heavy composite use, relaxed stability, etc, while still keeping it relatively (for a NGF) simple and low-cost platform.
> 
> That or we go an entirely different direction by consolidating our entire manned fighter fleet on only Project Azm, and then complement it with UAVs (loyal wingman drones, stealthy attack UAVs, etc).


Would that not depend on what is available from our friends and what our requirements are? I would also like to know what the AM meant when he said "JFT air frame will reach maturity after Block 3". Does it mean there is no further potential to develop the platform further? or that this was what PAF envisaged the JFT to be when they started out in the late 90s.
SO this question once answered will then lead to where we go and what the demands of modern day war in the subcontinent are?. For instance if we dont think that Azm will come on line by 30 to 35 then do we buy something akin to J31/20 in 3 squadron strength to negate any advantage the rafale will bring to the IAF? If not then do we open the design of JFT and look at producing JF18 ?
I think the later seems like a waste of money and effort as irrespective it will not give PAF any outstanding advantage to the PAF. We need to also discuss what will be the utility of such a fighter in 2035 onwards when 5th gen planes are flying around on both sides and we are looking at 6th generation platforms.
The future is very vague as a lot of background is not available to me at least. Interim buys if at all occur may well be of more 16s for MLU.
A

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## Pakistani Fighter

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Ultimately, I think a better idea would be to consider developing a replacement to the JF-17 by using the expertise and technology from the Thunder and Project Azm. So, while Project Azm becomes our offensive/maritime asset (as it's a twin-engine design), we should have a next-gen lightweight fighter to replace the JF-17s.
> 
> In this case, you could perhaps re-open the JF-17's design so that it can take on Project Azm's engine as well as new electronics (e.g., radar, EW/ECM, avionics, etc). Or use the aircraft development expertise and technology of Azm to develop a clean sheet single engine fighter. So, use the same engine as Azm, but design the fighter around heavy composite use, relaxed stability, etc, while still keeping it relatively (for a NGF) simple and low-cost platform.
> 
> That or we go an entirely different direction by consolidating our entire manned fighter fleet on only Project Azm, and then complement it with UAVs (loyal wingman drones, stealthy attack UAVs, etc).


Would Hurjet be a 5th gen light weight fighter?


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## LKJ86

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Would Hurjet be a 5th gen light weight fighter?


What???

Is there enough room inside a lightweight fighter for weapon bays?

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## StormBreaker

LKJ86 said:


> What???
> 
> Is there enough room inside a lightweight fighter for weapon bays?


That’s the reason why there couldn’t be any light weight 5th gen Fighter


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## Hassan Guy

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Ultimately, I think a better idea would be to consider developing a replacement to the JF-17 by using the expertise and technology from the Thunder and Project Azm. So, while Project Azm becomes our offensive/maritime asset (as it's a twin-engine design), we should have a next-gen lightweight fighter to replace the JF-17s.
> 
> In this case, you could perhaps re-open the JF-17's design so that it can take on Project Azm's engine as well as new electronics (e.g., radar, EW/ECM, avionics, etc). Or use the aircraft development expertise and technology of Azm to develop a clean sheet single engine fighter. So, use the same engine as Azm, but design the fighter around heavy composite use, relaxed stability, etc, while still keeping it relatively (for a NGF) simple and low-cost platform.
> 
> That or we go an entirely different direction by consolidating our entire manned fighter fleet on only Project Azm, and then complement it with UAVs (loyal wingman drones, stealthy attack UAVs, etc).


One would think that if Pakistan was to build a 5th gen fighter, they'd be looking to go single engine with an airframe with similar proportions to a jf-17/f-16. It would make sense from a pragmatic view to just reimplement the jf-17 into a new stealth airframe, sort of like the Russian 5th gen fighter. But since the Su-57 has seen some delays, I guess not?

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Hassan Guy said:


> One would think that if Pakistan was to build a 5th gen fighter, they'd be looking to go single engine with an airframe with similar proportions to a jf-17/f-16. It would make sense from a pragmatic view to just reimplement the jf-17 into a new stealth airframe, sort of like the Russian 5th gen fighter. But since the Su-57 has seen some delays, I guess not?
> View attachment 602529
> 
> View attachment 602528


Theoretically, 'stealthi-fying' the JF-17 should be possible, at some level. Northrop did just that to the T-38 Talon through the Model 400. Unfortunately, we won't know how much of a performance improvement it is, but it was aimed at the USAF's next-gen LIFT requirements.

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## araz

Hassan Guy said:


> One would think that if Pakistan was to build a 5th gen fighter, they'd be looking to go single engine with an airframe with similar proportions to a jf-17/f-16. It would make sense from a pragmatic view to just reimplement the jf-17 into a new stealth airframe, sort of like the Russian 5th gen fighter. But since the Su-57 has seen some delays, I guess not?
> View attachment 602529
> 
> View attachment 602528


We would need a power plant like the F35 engine to be able to get the performance we want out of a single engined 5th generation AC. I cannot recall any engine with a performance like that. It is therefore fair to assume that a single engined stealth fighter would be a waste of time in the PAC scenario and capabilities sphere. What we could have is a semi stealth lo observable fighter with recessed weapons and RAM coating and appropriate software as a work horse to go along with the Azm. Now whether PAF wants to use another fighter or accompanying drones is something I dont know. Howsoever we look at it we need an interim fighter before Azm comes along. What that might be is not clear.

A

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## BoggedDown

araz said:


> We would need a power plant like the F35 engine to be able to get the performance we want out of a single engined 5th generation AC. I cannot recall any engine with a performance like that. It is therefore fair to assume that a single engined stealth fighter would be a waste of time in the PAC scenario and capabilities sphere. What we could have is a semi stealth lo observable fighter with recessed weapons and RAM coating and appropriate software as a work horse to go along with the Azm. Now whether PAF wants to use another fighter or accompanying drones is something I dont know. Howsoever we look at it we need an interim fighter before Azm comes along. What that might be is not clear.
> 
> A



In my humble opinion AZM is just technical study to understand 5th generation aircraft. PAF does not have fund, technology or capability to build a 5th generation aircraft by itself. It either have to collaborate with China for joint development (meaning setting requirements and priorities and small enhancements here and there by integration some specific stuff from non chinese sources) and later inhouse manufacturing a la JF17 or buy a readymade aircraft from Turkey. So a medium weight single engine stealth fighter project with CAC is what PAF at best can have for a quantity of 100+ pieces. If Turkish TF-X project get successful in future, PAF may acquire 3-4 dozens to keep its touch with western aircrafts as replacements of F16s.

I think the most optimal for PAF would be a scale down in size and range of J20, a single engine (in the beginning WS10B or whatever the current engine of J20 and ultimately WS-15 when ready) medium weight stealth air superiority fighter with attack as secondary role, little bit bigger that current J10C or similar size but greater range. So you can think it as a hybrid of J10C and J20A, a scale up of J10C by adding stealth feature + internal weapons bay (4 BVR+2 WVR or 2 BVR + 2 AGM +2 WVR ) or a scale down J20A with a single engine, whichever option is easy. In my opinion CAC can build it quite easily with very short time and reasonable cost as all of the technologies already exists from J20A and J10C program, nothing much new need to be invented here. Of course as parameters changes it will be ground up as a new aircraft design, development and testing wise but all subcomponents should be reused with from existing programs as much as possible

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## Talon

After Tigers,Talons have also improved their tail art

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## Haris Ali2140

Hodor said:


> After Tigers,Talons have also improved their tail art
> 
> View attachment 602629



Why don't we have full body skins???

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## Silicon0000

araz said:


> We would need a power plant like the F35 engine to be able to get the performance we want out of a single engined 5th generation AC. I cannot recall any engine with a performance like that. It is therefore fair to assume that a single engined stealth fighter would be a waste of time in the PAC scenario and capabilities sphere. What we could have is a semi stealth lo observable fighter with recessed weapons and RAM coating and appropriate software as a work horse to go along with the Azm. Now whether PAF wants to use another fighter or accompanying drones is something I dont know. Howsoever we look at it we need an interim fighter before Azm comes along. What that might be is not clear.
> 
> A




Don't you think going for development of another interim fighter will only increase the timeline of 5th gen Azm only. Personally I think we can develop Azm fighter right after JF17 block3 in same way JF17 is developed infact with better efficiency and more contribution. 

AZM development timelines are mainly depends on Indian developments and it will be delayed till Indian seriously got a timeline for their 5th Gen. PAF has more of a reactive mindset (maybe because of many limitations) then the .......


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## araz

Silicon0000 said:


> Don't you think going for development of another interim fighter will only increase the timeline of 5th gen Azm only. Personally I think we can develop Azm fighter right after JF17 block3 in same way JF17 is developed infact with better efficiency and more contribution.
> 
> AZM development timelines are mainly depends on Indian developments and it will be delayed till Indian seriously got a timeline for their 5th Gen. PAF has more of a reactive mindset (maybe because of many limitations) then the .......


The reason I write what I write is the need for 100 odd fighters which PAF needs to replace. We dont have the finances to buy anything in large enough numbers to fulfill this need. The next issue is the block building approach of the JFT. This effectively dictates that there will be a newer block/blocks if we need 100 fighters to replace.
I therefore posed myself the following questions for a logical solution to the problem.
A. Is the block 3 good enough that we dont need anything more from anywhere? (Possibly not being a light weight fighter)
B. If not what is the growth potential of the current design for future blocks?(million dollar question to which no one knows the answer and those that know aren't telling.)
C.Are the upgrades only going to be software upgrades or we will need to add more hardware?(possibly software as well as hardware)
D. What will be our needs in the next 10 years and how will we meet them?( more drones, more fighters?? Possibly twin engine fighter.
E. When do we envisage Azm coming on line? (Realistic answer 10 to 15 years).
So please look at the questions posed and try to answer them and see where you get to. It is a simple exercise in proactive thinking setting down criteria and then looking back at what the prospects are
Lookng at the JFT it has more or less served its purpose in the sense that it has kick started our aviation industry with a simple to manufacture and learn platform which is upgradeable. However moving on as we apply progressive levels of knowledge to our Azm project will we not want to try the newer concepts and designs and software out. If we want to do that what will be our platform?
Going by publically available information the Block 3 is the culmination of the JFT. Therefore moving forward the only logical sequence of events keeping our needs and demands in view I see further blocks of JFT being built along with changes progressively towards peri 5th gen platform(4++). I see the development of Azm to be ongoing all along as they have been now.
Regards
A


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## Haris Ali2140

araz said:


> The reason I write what I write is the need for 100 odd fighters which PAF needs to replace. We dont have the finances to buy anything in large enough numbers to fulfill this need. The next issue is the block building approach of the JFT. This effectively dictates that there will be a newer block/blocks if we need 100 fighters to replace.
> I therefore posed myself the following questions for a logical solution to the problem.
> A. Is the block 3 good enough that we dont need anything more from anywhere? (Possibly not being a light weight fighter)
> B. If not what is the growth potential of the current design for future blocks?(million dollar question to which no one knows the answer and those that know aren't telling.)
> C.Are the upgrades only going to be software upgrades or we will need to add more hardware?(possibly software as well as hardware)
> D. What will be our needs in the next 10 years and how will we meet them?( more drones, more fighters?? Possibly twin engine fighter.
> E. When do we envisage Azm coming on line? (Realistic answer 10 to 15 years).
> So please look at the questions posed and try to answer them and see where you get to. It is a simple exercise in proactive thinking setting down criteria and then looking back at what the prospects are
> Lookng at the JFT it has more or less served its purpose in the sense that it has kick started our aviation industry with a simple to manufacture and learn platform which is upgradeable. However moving on as we apply progressive levels of knowledge to our Azm project will we not want to try the newer concepts and designs and software out. If we want to do that what will be our platform?
> Going by publically available information the Block 3 is the culmination of the JFT. Therefore moving forward the only logical sequence of events keeping our needs and demands in view I see further blocks of JFT being built along with changes progressively towards peri 5th gen platform(4++). I see the development of Azm to be ongoing all along as they have been now.
> Regards
> A



IMO we might see further blocks of JF-17 with structural changes. Technology has evolved a lot since the inception of its BLK 1. Now we can test structural changes using simulations using powerful processors. As @Quwa suggested that JF-17 can also serve as a test platform for the technologies which will be incorporated in AZM. 

A major obstacle will be to finance the newer upgrades. This can be helped if we can commit other countries to the program by exports.

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## SD 10

LKJ86 said:


> At that moment, what will China or Pakistan have?


j31 or j20.


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## LKJ86

SD 10 said:


> j31 or j20.


One thing for sure is that China would be equipped with a new figher jet from SAC.

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## SD 10

LKJ86 said:


> One thing for sure is that China would be equipped with a new figher jet from SAC.


i think by 2030 we well see a 6th generation chinese jet.


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## Silicon0000

araz said:


> The reason I write what I write is the need for 100 odd fighters which PAF needs to replace. We dont have the finances to buy anything in large enough numbers to fulfill this need. The next issue is the block building approach of the JFT. This effectively dictates that there will be a newer block/blocks if we need 100 fighters to replace.
> I therefore posed myself the following questions for a logical solution to the problem.
> A. Is the block 3 good enough that we dont need anything more from anywhere? (Possibly not being a light weight fighter)
> B. If not what is the growth potential of the current design for future blocks?(million dollar question to which no one knows the answer and those that know aren't telling.)
> C.Are the upgrades only going to be software upgrades or we will need to add more hardware?(possibly software as well as hardware)
> D. What will be our needs in the next 10 years and how will we meet them?( more drones, more fighters?? Possibly twin engine fighter.
> E. When do we envisage Azm coming on line? (Realistic answer 10 to 15 years).
> So please look at the questions posed and try to answer them and see where you get to. It is a simple exercise in proactive thinking setting down criteria and then looking back at what the prospects are
> Lookng at the JFT it has more or less served its purpose in the sense that it has kick started our aviation industry with a simple to manufacture and learn platform which is upgradeable. However moving on as we apply progressive levels of knowledge to our Azm project will we not want to try the newer concepts and designs and software out. If we want to do that what will be our platform?
> Going by publically available information the Block 3 is the culmination of the JFT. Therefore moving forward the only logical sequence of events keeping our needs and demands in view I see further blocks of JFT being built along with changes progressively towards peri 5th gen platform(4++). I see the development of Azm to be ongoing all along as they have been now.
> Regards
> A



A ..... No. But better answer for me is to speed up AZM system development. 

B & C ..... We are doing upgrades to 1960s vintage mirages ..... There will be lots of upgrades to JF17 platform (Both Software and Hardware). Newer block (more fighters) and upgrade both will need to be there. Azm should have different production lines. 

D ..... Agree with you. Think Azm as AZM system, not only 5th gen fighter. Speed up is the only answer. JF17 model (starting with available mature tech and then incremental capability increase) is excellent in reducing timeline. Things should start coming out in 3-5 years with final product should be there in 8-10 years. we don't always need to be reactive to Indian developments. We need to be visionary and proactive.

And one more thing is that if I am not wrong (I could be as I am no technical person) stealth shaping with internal weapon bay is less difficult task then the other 5th gen goodies. Leaving only these 2 won't be a good thing and cause more waste of time. 

I could be wrong but these are my views.


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## LKJ86

SD 10 said:


> i think by 2030 we well see a 6th generation chinese jet.


The work for next generation engines and fighters has started.

The competition in the development of fighters between USA and China would be increased dramatically in near future.

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## SD 10

LKJ86 said:


> The work for next generation engines and fighters has started.
> 
> The competition in the development of fighters between USA and China would be increased dramatically in near future.


the two leading countries in aviation, Russia is out of the picture in this one!


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## LKJ86

SD 10 said:


> the two leading countries in aviation, Russia is out of the picture in this one!


USA is still top.

China needs to keep working very hard for a long time.

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## SD 10

LKJ86 said:


> USA is still top.
> 
> China needs to keep working very hard for a long time.


CHINA will get there!


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## StormBreaker

SD 10 said:


> CHINA will get there!


No, probably china will create standards in near future, take an altogether different path.

Reason : USA have mustered 5th gen fighters. China still doesn’t know the 100% or even to my guess 60% of F-22/F-35 tech and yet they have J-20 claiming to be 5th gen. They tried their level best but don’t know all the studies USA have for 5th gen. So china will definitely carry on a different path and will introduce something totally new in this field


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## araz

Silicon0000 said:


> A ..... No. But better answer for me is to speed up AZM system development.
> 
> B & C ..... We are doing upgrades to 1960s vintage mirages ..... There will be lots of upgrades to JF17 platform (Both Software and Hardware). Newer block (more fighters) and upgrade both will need to be there. Azm should have different production lines.
> 
> D ..... Agree with you. Think Azm as AZM system, not only 5th gen fighter. Speed up is the only answer. JF17 model (starting with available mature tech and then incremental capability increase) is excellent in reducing timeline. Things should start coming out in 3-5 years with final product should be there in 8-10 years. we don't always need to be reactive to Indian developments. We need to be visionary and proactive.
> 
> And one more thing is that if I am not wrong (I could be as I am no technical person) stealth shaping with internal weapon bay is less difficult task then the other 5th gen goodies. Leaving only these 2 won't be a good thing and cause more waste of time.
> 
> I could be wrong but these are my views.


You cannot speed up products like that. It is not without reason people are saying that the project will take 10 yrs to materialize. I think it is very likely we might not see a platform till 35. This leaves me with a decade+/-5yrs to contend with (I think in planning one takes the worst possible scenario ) and hence my assumption of newer blocks of JFT which is where this discussion started. I understand the fact that there may be 2 separate assembly lines but that is quite an expense for PAC unless we have significant orders.
The story of Mirages is a very different one so let us not complicate things unnecessarily by including those here.
A



StormBreaker said:


> No, probably china will create standards in near future, take an altogether different path.
> 
> Reason : USA have mustered 5th gen fighters. China still doesn’t know the 100% or even to my guess 60% of F-22/F-35 tech and yet they have J-20 claiming to be 5th gen. They tried their level best but don’t know all the studies USA have for 5th gen. So china will definitely carry on a different path and will introduce something totally new in this field


There is 100 years of industrial development backing the Us aviation industry. China has only really been there since the last 40 years. It will take them another10 -20yrs to catch up to the US.
A

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## MastanKhan

StormBreaker said:


> No, probably china will create standards in near future, take an altogether different path.
> 
> Reason : USA have mustered 5th gen fighters. China still doesn’t know the 100% or even to my guess 60% of F-22/F-35 tech and yet they have J-20 claiming to be 5th gen. They tried their level best but don’t know all the studies USA have for 5th gen. So china will definitely carry on a different path and will introduce something totally new in this field



Hi,

Here is what is going to happen---. China may never be able to compete with the 'white devil' for another 50 years---but they will come out with something else to take it down----.

And that would be a better tracking system--- better surface and air to air missiles---better radar and early warning system---ability to take down the opponents air refuellers at a critical time.

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## ARMalik

I have said it plenty of times that if China wants to be a TRUE Superpower than it can never become a Superpower if it tries to copy the US because it will always lag the US. The Only way that China can beat US and others is to innovate and come up with New Energy Source and new weapons systems based on an entirely different design philosophy. People say that you *DO NOT *need to reinvent the wheel. *I say why do you even need WHEELS??* Come up with something extraordinary and you will not need wheels ever again. And this is what any nation which wants to the supreme power needs to do.

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## ziaulislam

ARMalik said:


> I have said it plenty of times that if China wants to be a TRUE Superpower than it can never become a Superpower if it tries to copy the US because it will always lag the US. The Only way that China can beat US and others is to innovate and come up with New Energy Source and new weapons systems based on an entirely different design philosophy. People say that you *DO NOT *need to reinvent the wheel. *I say why do you even need WHEELS??* Come up with something extraordinary and you will not need wheels ever again. And this is what any nation which wants to the supreme power needs to do.


And where will that innovation going to come from.?
China population is getting old and decades old policy of single child is now showing its colors while minorities are prosecuted ...talent is being sucked into USA. 
In USA half of the people in MIT are immigrants inculding chinese

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## ARMalik

ziaulislam said:


> And where will that innovation going to come from.?
> China population is getting old and decades old policy of single child is now showing its colors while minorities are prosecuted ...talent is being sucked into USA.
> In USA half of the people in MIT are immigrants inculding chinese



As a nation, China needs to figure out how to move past all obstacles. Achieving a Superpower status and then maintaining it is extremely difficult.


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## Chak Bamu

When I was a mere teenager in 80's, I thought that it would be great to have a joint fighter program with Turkey, with perhaps Iran as third partner (I was obviously more naive back then).

Each partner could take the lead in either airframe, or engine, or avionics. I thought that it could be done within a decade (yes, naive again), to get a fighter that would be dependable & cutting edge.

It would be great if Pakistan could partner with Turkey on a complete jet, minus the engine perhaps? Going the FGFA route independently could become cost-prohibitive. Just look at recent GDP growth numbers.

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## LKJ86

ziaulislam said:


> And where will that innovation going to come from.?
> China population is getting old and decades old policy of single child is now showing its colors while minorities are prosecuted ...talent is being sucked into USA.
> In USA half of the people in MIT are immigrants inculding chinese


USA also thinks so.
But the reality is very cruel to the people having such idea...







But that idea really helps China unexpectedly

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## StormBreaker

Chak Bamu said:


> When I was a mere teenager in 80's, I thought that it would be great to have a joint fighter program with Turkey, with perhaps Iran as third partner (I was obviously more naive back then).
> 
> Each partner could take the lead in either airframe, or engine, or avionics. I thought that it could be done within a decade (yes, naive again), to get a fighter that would be dependable & cutting edge.
> 
> It would be great if Pakistan could partner with Turkey on a complete jet, minus the engine perhaps? Going the FGFA route independently could become cost-prohibitive. Just look at recent GDP growth numbers.


A joint FGFA NGF platform co developed by PAF and TuAF has more potential and probability of happening (God knows what talks are going inside) than one can imagine.

Reason : Turkey has been rejected F-35 and TF-X is going to be a dual engine air superiority fighter in class between heavy and medium. It is intended to replace F-16s.

PAF on the other hand plans AZM as possible replacement of F-16s but in limited numbers to around 120-150 (my guess due to costs and heavy maintenance requirements).

So both Air forces have a grey area where number boosting, single engine advanced fighter is required and this is where a program can be initiated to go 5+/6th Gen and timeline should be around 2035-2040.

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @aliyusuf

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## aliyusuf

StormBreaker said:


> A joint FGFA NGF platform co developed by PAF and TuAF has more potential and probability of happening (God knows what talks are going inside) than one can imagine.
> 
> Reason : Turkey has been rejected F-35 and TF-X is going to be a dual engine air superiority fighter in class between heavy and medium. It is intended to replace F-16s.
> 
> PAF on the other hand plans AZM as possible replacement of F-16s but in limited numbers to around 120-150 (my guess due to costs and heavy maintenance requirements).
> 
> So both Air forces have a grey area where number boosting, single engine advanced fighter is required and this is where a program can be initiated to go 5+/6th Gen and timeline should be around 2035-2040.
> 
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @aliyusuf


Collaboration should be encouraged with whomever is willing to collaborate with us. As long as Pakistan's interests get served. That should be the primary consideration. Be it China, Turkey or any other country. But in the immediate future I am seeing this collaboration being heavily dependent on Chinese help to start off the initial work. Turkey will be useful in sharing their expertise in subsystems like GaN based AESA radar TRMs, EW suites and targeting pods etc. Pakistan could be useful in working as a conduit of know-how between the other two and as eventually providing the trained workforce to keep prices down comparatively.

But AZM will be giving off results i.e. the first prototype gets developed ... sometime between 2030 to 2035. Then expect another 7 to 8 years for the design to be perfected and finalized. After that small batch production versions could be initiated. Somewhere between 2037 to 2043.

Provided, Pakistan's economy picks up in the next couple years.

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## Path-Finder

I didn't see any news about this and it's already more than 6 months old. PAF visit to PCO S.A Polish optics maker.
https://pcosa.com.pl/en/delegation-from-pakistan-4/

On 23rd of July premises of PCO S.A. were visited by Mujahid Awnar Khan Chief of the Hedquarters of the Airforce – Commander of the Pakistan Air Force.
He was accompanied by Safqat Ali Khan – ambassador of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan in Warsaw, and Deffence Attache of the embassy.

Guests watched a multimedia presentation of the Company. They were also acvkonwledged with the most modern night vision products and cameras for the combat platforms. Next the delegation visited production facilities of the Company and tests department conducting tests of the equipment.















Interestingly COAS visited them as well and Former ACM visited them too!

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## PakShaheen79

> Interestingly COAS visited them as well and Former ACM visited them too!



Don't know why, but it seems they are already working on something asked by PAF. So many high end visits can't be just to get know the products offered by a company.

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## khanasifm

outer casing being reviewed by chief it’s looks like 

https://pcosa.com.pl/en/night-vision-thermal-and-day-cameras/

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## mingle

khanasifm said:


> outer casing being reviewed by chief it’s looks like
> 
> https://pcosa.com.pl/en/night-vision-thermal-and-day-cameras/


What they offer to PAF???Helmet mounted system for PAF pilots


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## khanasifm

More like 


https://pcosa.com.pl/en/swpl-1-cyklop-flight-parametres-display-system/

And other aviator nvg


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## Readerdefence

aliyusuf said:


> Collaboration should be encouraged with whomever is willing to collaborate with us. As long as Pakistan's interests get served. That should be the primary consideration. Be it China, Turkey or any other country. But in the immediate future I am seeing this collaboration being heavily dependent on Chinese help to start off the initial work. Turkey will be useful in sharing their expertise in subsystems like GaN based AESA radar TRMs, EW suites and targeting pods etc. Pakistan could be useful in working as a conduit of know-how between the other two and as eventually providing the trained workforce to keep prices down comparatively.
> 
> But AZM will be giving off results i.e. the first prototype gets developed ... sometime between 2030 to 2035. Then expect another 7 to 8 years for the design to be perfected and finalized. After that small batch production versions could be initiated. Somewhere between 2037 to 2043.
> 
> Provided, Pakistan's economy picks up in the next couple years.


Hi I’m not contradicting your time line about AZM just a Q for your as Americans have their f22 around by that time 50 years or so like wise China & Russia also around 25yers or so 
So If I may ask about the detection or innovation or stealth radar will not be around by that time 
And of its around adversary will definitely have one 
So now here I’m not against the AZM but if possible air defence or PAF should get to focus about getting this radar ASAP 
What’s your take on this 
Thank you


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## aliyusuf

Readerdefence said:


> So now here I’m not against the AZM but if possible air defence or PAF should get to focus about getting this radar ASAP


Absolutely, based on what we think we know as we are surely not privy to the actual situation. But getting that radar or whatever that is even better (if) available, we should be going for it. These are significant force multipliers.

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## Lord Of Gondor



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## khanasifm

https://www.defence.gov.au/ADC/Publications/documents/Commanders/2012/Shamsi-2012.pdf


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## fatman17

Military Capabilities

Pakistan Air Force to receive first 12 JF-17B combat aircraft ‘in near future’.

Alan Warnes, Kamra - Jane's Defence Weekly
04 February 2020


A JF-17B aircraft is pictured taxiing out for a test flight test from PAC Kamra in late January 2020. Source: Alan Warnes

Deliveries of the first 12 of 26 twin-seat JF-17B Thunder multirole combat aircraft on order for the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) are expected to commence "in the near future", PAF officials have told Jane's .

Eight of these aircraft were built at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) in Kamra, while the remaining four were constructed by the Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group (CAIG) in China, where the aircraft type is known as the FC-1 Xiaolong.

The aircraft, several of which are equipped with aerial refuelling probes, had been rolled out at PAC Kamra in late December 2019 during a ceremony that was also attended by the PAF's Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan. Delivery of the remaining JF-17Bs is expected to be completed by 2021.

Speaking to Jane's on 20 January, ACM Khan explained that the JF-17Bs will help to streamline the PAF's training process for the Thunder. "The JF-17 pilots are currently being posted to Lockheed Martin F-16, Chengdu F-7PG or Dassault Mirage IIIEA ROSE aircraft before converting to the JF-17," he said. "But they will start going straight to a JF-17 OCU [operational conversion unit] after completing their advanced jet training." ACM Khan added that this "will ensure that pilots transitioning to the Sino-Pakistani jet are a lot younger than they are now".

The JF-17B prototype made its first flight in China in April 2017.

Meanwhile, the PAF revealed that after a lengthy evaluation the air-cooled Nanjing Research Institute of Electronics Technology (NRIET) KLJ-7A active electronically scanned-array (AESA) radar has been selected for the Block III variant of the JF-17/ FC-1 Xiaolong, the first prototype of which made its maiden flight on 17 December from CAIG's production facility at Chengdu-Huangtianba. PAC Kamra's newly appointed chairman, Air Marshal Syed Noman Ali, said a second Block III prototype will assist in May with the test and evaluation process.

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## Tank131

KLJ-7A it is.

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## Pakistani Fighter

fatman17 said:


> Speaking to Jane's on 20 January, ACM Khan explained that the JF-17Bs will help to streamline the PAF's training process for the Thunder.


So Block B will be used for training. No EW plateform like growler



fatman17 said:


> Deliveries of the first 12 of 26 twin-seat JF-17B Thunder multirole combat aircraft on order for the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) are expected to commence "in the near future", PAF officials have told Jane's .


So total of 26 JF17 Bs will be inducted in whole Thunder fleet?


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## fatman17

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> So Block B will be used for training. No EW plateform like growler
> 
> ACM will not disclose that to anyone.
> 
> 
> So total of 26 JF17 Bs will be inducted in whole Thunder fleet?



yes


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## PakShaheen79

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> So Block B will be used for training. No EW plateform like growler
> 
> 
> So total of 26 JF17 Bs will be inducted in whole Thunder fleet?


For now it is 26 Bs; Certainly this number can go up in future depending on multiple factors ranging from PAF's plan to raise more squadrons requiring more planes for training the pilots in parallel to new scenarios in which PAF finds utility of such platform like dedicated EW squadron. 26 is a number for foreseeable future 3~5 years.


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## fatman17

Exercise Zilzal

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## Ahmet Pasha

I think for EW PAF wants to depend upon Blinders.

But it'd be better for PAF to use Blinders sqn for EW in a larger area with the AWACS. And use growlers with a strike package in immediate area where dogfight/airstrike is going to happen.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Ahmet Pasha said:


> I think for EW PAF wants to depend upon Blinders.
> 
> But it'd be better for PAF to use Blinders sqn for EW in a larger area with the AWACS. And use growlers with a strike package in immediate area where dogfight/airstrike is going to happen.


EW will make its way to the fleet in different ways.

The Block-III, for example, will have its own integrated suite.

The JF-17s (be it Block-I, II, III or B) will have access to a dedicated EW pod, which one or several of them can deploy as part of a mission. Sure, there's no Growler-like aircraft designed for the job (with one jet carrying 3-4 jamming pods), but EW will be fairly common in the PAF fleet.

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## air marshal

*Pakistan provides medical supplies to virus-hit Wuhan City*
February 3, 2020

The Pakistani government transported 300,000 medical masks, 800 hazmat suits and 6,800 pairs of gloves to the epidemic-hit region.
The aid was supplied through Pakistan Air Force aircraft.
The supplies have been delivered after China witnessed the deadly coronavirus outbreak claiming lives of more than 300 people and infecting thousands others.

KARACHI: Medical supplies from Pakistan arrived in China's Wuhan City, which has been badly affected by coronavirus, media reported on Monday.

The Pakistani government transported 300,000 medical masks, 800 hazmat suits and 6,800 pairs of gloves to the epidemic-hit region. The aid was supplied through Pakistan Air Force aircraft.

Meanwhile, another PAF aeroplane is also expected to fly to China to deliver the supplies. The supplies have been delivered after China witnessed the deadly coronavirus outbreak that claimed lives of more than 300 people and infecting thousands others.

Health officials say the death toll from the virus has exceeded that of acute respiratory syndrome outbreak in 2002 and 2003. The total number of people infected with the virus rose to 17, 205 in China after 2,829 new case were reported.

At least 150 cases have also been reported from other countries.

Meanwhile, China's health commission says that there were 475 recoveries and 361 deaths nationwide due to the virus. They said the SARS epidemic claimed lives of 349 people across China.

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## LKJ86

air marshal said:


> *Pakistan provides medical supplies to virus-hit Wuhan City*
> February 3, 2020
> 
> The Pakistani government transported 300,000 medical masks, 800 hazmat suits and 6,800 pairs of gloves to the epidemic-hit region.
> The aid was supplied through Pakistan Air Force aircraft.
> The supplies have been delivered after China witnessed the deadly coronavirus outbreak claiming lives of more than 300 people and infecting thousands others.
> 
> KARACHI: Medical supplies from Pakistan arrived in China's Wuhan City, which has been badly affected by coronavirus, media reported on Monday.
> 
> The Pakistani government transported 300,000 medical masks, 800 hazmat suits and 6,800 pairs of gloves to the epidemic-hit region. The aid was supplied through Pakistan Air Force aircraft.
> 
> Meanwhile, another PAF aeroplane is also expected to fly to China to deliver the supplies. The supplies have been delivered after China witnessed the deadly coronavirus outbreak that claimed lives of more than 300 people and infecting thousands others.
> 
> Health officials say the death toll from the virus has exceeded that of acute respiratory syndrome outbreak in 2002 and 2003. The total number of people infected with the virus rose to 17, 205 in China after 2,829 new case were reported.
> 
> At least 150 cases have also been reported from other countries.
> 
> Meanwhile, China's health commission says that there were 475 recoveries and 361 deaths nationwide due to the virus. They said the SARS epidemic claimed lives of 349 people across China.


Thank you, Pakistan.

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## mingle

Ahmet Pasha said:


> While abandoning it's own citizen within and outside Pakistan just so Uturn wali sarkar can suck upto Cheen.


He Did the right thing U turn wali sarkar is not Bao jee and company if pak health system that good why Bao jee ended in London??


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## fatman17

ASIA DEFENSE | SECURITY | SOUTH ASIA
Pakistan Air Force to Take Delivery of first 12 JF-17B Fighters ‘in Near Future’
The service is expected to receive the new fighter jets soon, according to Pakistan Air Force officials.

Franz-Stefan Gady
By Franz-Stefan Gady
February 05, 2020

Pakistan Air Force to Take Delivery of first 12 JF-17B Fighters ‘in Near Future’
Credit: Chinese Internet

The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is expected to receive the first 12 Pakistan Aeronautical Complex/Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation (PAC/CAC) JF-17B Thunder “in the near future,” according to PAF officials cited in a February 4 IHS Jane’s report.

PAC completed production of the first batch of eight JF-17Bs last month. CAC meanwhile has produced four JF-17B aircraft.

PAF’s chief of air staff, Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan, and China’s ambassador to Pakistan, Yao Jing, attended the roll out ceremony on January 20 at the PAC production facility in Karma.

Khan at the time congratulated PAC Kamra and CAC for the “successful accomplishment of [the] 2019 production target and on completing [the] first 8 dual-seat JF-17 aircraft in [a] record time of five months.”

The JF-17B aircraft will be available in an attack and trainer variant. According to an IHS Jane’s interview with Khan from January 2020, the JF-17B will help streamline pilot training processes within the PAF.


“The JF-17 pilots are currently being posted to Lockheed Martin F-16, Chengdu F-7PG or Dassault Mirage IIIEA ROSE aircraft before converting to the JF-17,” Khan was quoted as saying by IHS Jane’s. “But they will start going straight to a JF-17 OCU [operational conversion unit] after completing their advanced jet training.”

This “will ensure that pilots transitioning to the Sino-Pakistani jet are a lot younger than they are now,” according to Khan.

In addition to the eight aircraft rolled out in late December, the PAF expects to receive a further 14 JF-Bs in 2020 and four more in 2021. The first prototype of the JF-17B twin-seater was reportedly completed in late 2016 and conducted its maiden flight in April 2017.

In comparison to previous JF-17 variants, the JF-17B is a twin-seat aircraft and features a deeper dorsal spine and added fuel capacity.

The latest single-seat variant of the aircraft, theJF-17 Block III, conducted its maiden flight in December 2019.

Notably, this new variant may be fitted with the Chinese WS-13 engine instead of the Russian Klimov RD-93MA found on JF-17 Block I and Block II aircraft. The latest variant of the aircraft will also feature additional technical upgrades, as I explained elsewhere:

F-17 Block III fighters will apparently receive a new electronic warfare system, upgraded avionics including a three-axis fly-by-wire digital flight control system, a helmet-mounted display and sight system, and Pakistan’s first Chinese-made active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar system.



According to PAF sources, the service has opted for the the Nanjing Research Institute of Electronics Technology’s KLJ-7A AESA radar system.

Overall, the PAF has reportedly placed orders for 186 JF-17 combat aircraft.

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## Shah_G

First time watching a video of PAF breaking sound barrier.

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## TsAr

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> EW will make its way to the fleet in different ways.
> 
> The Block-III, for example, will have its own integrated suite.
> 
> The JF-17s (be it Block-I, II, III or B) will have access to a dedicated EW pod, which one or several of them can deploy as part of a mission. Sure, there's no Growler-like aircraft designed for the job (with one jet carrying 3-4 jamming pods), but EW will be fairly common in the PAF fleet.


I concur with your post, events of 27 Feb have further proved to PAF the importance of EW suits, now how they employ them would depend on resources at the disposal and situation requirements.


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## MastanKhan

Chak Bamu said:


> When I was a mere teenager in 80's, I thought that it would be great to have a joint fighter program with Turkey, with perhaps Iran as third partner (I was obviously more naive back then).
> 
> Each partner could take the lead in either airframe, or engine, or avionics. I thought that it could be done within a decade (yes, naive again), to get a fighter that would be dependable & cutting edge.
> 
> It would be great if Pakistan could partner with Turkey on a complete jet, minus the engine perhaps? Going the FGFA route independently could become cost-prohibitive. Just look at recent GDP growth numbers.



Hi,

Progress happens---projects see success---when the alliance has common enemy---.

Pak China alliance is the best alliance that there is---. Turkey's addition would be a major plus---.

The thing is that with pak china alliance---at critical times---products becomes available as if coming out of the thin air without any restrictions---.

Just like between the US and Israel---.

Turkey has made a major blunder by creating issues with the F35 delivery while going for the S400.

Turkey should have received the F35's before going side ways---. But I guess after putting in jail many of the F16 pilots---Turkey may not have had any pilots to operate the F35's---. Oh well---.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## khanasifm

fatman17 said:


> ASIA DEFENSE | SECURITY | SOUTH ASIA
> Pakistan Air Force to Take Delivery of first 12 JF-17B Fighters ‘in Near Future’
> The service is expected to receive the new fighter jets soon, according to Pakistan Air Force officials.
> 
> Franz-Stefan Gady
> By Franz-Stefan Gady
> February 05, 2020
> 
> Pakistan Air Force to Take Delivery of first 12 JF-17B Fighters ‘in Near Future’
> Credit: Chinese Internet
> 
> The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is expected to receive the first 12 Pakistan Aeronautical Complex/Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation (PAC/CAC) JF-17B Thunder “in the near future,” according to PAF officials cited in a February 4 IHS Jane’s report.
> 
> PAC completed production of the first batch of eight JF-17Bs last month. CAC meanwhile has produced four JF-17B aircraft.
> 
> PAF’s chief of air staff, Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan, and China’s ambassador to Pakistan, Yao Jing, attended the roll out ceremony on January 20 at the PAC production facility in Karma.
> 
> Khan at the time congratulated PAC Kamra and CAC for the “successful accomplishment of [the] 2019 production target and on completing [the] first 8 dual-seat JF-17 aircraft in [a] record time of five months.”
> 
> The JF-17B aircraft will be available in an attack and trainer variant. According to an IHS Jane’s interview with Khan from January 2020, the JF-17B will help streamline pilot training processes within the PAF.
> 
> 
> “The JF-17 pilots are currently being posted to Lockheed Martin F-16, Chengdu F-7PG or Dassault Mirage IIIEA ROSE aircraft before converting to the JF-17,” Khan was quoted as saying by IHS Jane’s. “But they will start going straight to a JF-17 OCU [operational conversion unit] after completing their advanced jet training.”
> 
> This “will ensure that pilots transitioning to the Sino-Pakistani jet are a lot younger than they are now,” according to Khan.
> 
> In addition to the eight aircraft rolled out in late December, the PAF expects to receive a further 14 JF-Bs in 2020 and four more in 2021. The first prototype of the JF-17B twin-seater was reportedly completed in late 2016 and conducted its maiden flight in April 2017.
> 
> In comparison to previous JF-17 variants, the JF-17B is a twin-seat aircraft and features a deeper dorsal spine and added fuel capacity.
> 
> The latest single-seat variant of the aircraft, theJF-17 Block III, conducted its maiden flight in December 2019.
> 
> Notably, this new variant may be fitted with the Chinese WS-13 engine instead of the Russian Klimov RD-93MA found on JF-17 Block I and Block II aircraft. The latest variant of the aircraft will also feature additional technical upgrades, as I explained elsewhere:
> 
> F-17 Block III fighters will apparently receive a new electronic warfare system, upgraded avionics including a three-axis fly-by-wire digital flight control system, a helmet-mounted display and sight system, and Pakistan’s first Chinese-made active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar system.
> 
> 
> 
> According to PAF sources, the service has opted for the the Nanjing Research Institute of Electronics Technology’s KLJ-7A AESA radar system.
> 
> Overall, the PAF has reportedly placed orders for 186 JF-17 combat aircraft.
> 
> View attachment 603763



This added fuel capacity ?? Does anyone know how much internal capacity went up in B as well as block 3 ? Assuming couple of hundred pounds say 200-300 kg range ?? Ie 3000 to 3400/3500 liters


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## fatman17

SINGAPORE AIR SHOW

DEFENSE

Catic Caters to Customers with Full Line of Fighters

by Reuben F. Johnson

February 4, 2020, 

J-20

Like Russia and the Soviet Union before it, the People’s Republic of China (PRC) has concentrated authority for export of weapons systems into a monopoly of state-run military trading companies. In the case of combat aircraft, the entity responsible is the China National Aero-Technology Import & Export Corporation (Catic).

Catic has traditionally had a list of sometimes unremarkable products to offer prospective customers, but that has changed with the development of new programs from both the Chengdu Aerospace Corporation (CAC) and its rivals at the Shenyang Aircraft Works (SAC).

Foremost among these is the Chengdu J-20, which appears to be a stealth aircraft as questions continue about how successful its radar cross-section (RCS) reduction design has been. This is based on numerous photos of more recent versions powered with what appears to be a new Chinese-built WS-10 jet engine variant in which the exhaust nozzle is designed with saw-tooth edge petals to reduce the rear hemisphere signature.

It is estimated that only four low-rate initial production variants of the WS-10-powered J-20 exist. Previous models appear to be powered by the Salyut AL-31F engine fitted to the Sukhoi Su-27, although Russian sources state the Chengdu design team has shown interest in the Su-35’s AL-41FS-series engine as another option.

Chengdu’s other major program is the single-engine J-10 fighter, which resembles the design of the Israel Aircraft Industries Lavi technology demonstrator. The latest version features a redesigned diverterless supersonic inlet and is also powered with a WS-10 variant over the AL-31FN originally designed by Salyut for this program.

J-10

The last of the three major Chengdu programs is the JF-17 single-engine lightweight fighter that is cooperatively produced with the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) in Kamra. On December 28, 2019, the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) rolled out its first batch of what will be two-seat models of the JF-17 Block III design.

Go beyond the headlines with AIN’s free weekly digest of the most important news across the aero defense industry.

“To mark this momentous occasion, a grand ceremony was held at Aircraft Manufacturing Factory Kamra, where Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan was the chief guest,” according to a spokesperson for the PAF. The event was also attended by the Chinese ambassador, Yao Jing, and Aviation Industries of China executive vice president Hao Zhaoping.

The Air Chief singled out Catic for successfully meeting its 2019 production targets and congratulated the design team for completing the two-seat JF-17 in a record timeframe of five months, calling it a “true manifestation of everlasting friendship between both countries.”

The Air Chief also cut the ribbon on a new JF-17 dual-seat integration facility at the PAC Avionics Production Factory. “The facility will enable PAF to integrate avionics and weapon systems of choice with JF-17 aircraft, ultimately providing much-needed self-reliance and operational flexibility,” according to a PAF statement.

JF-17

SAC’s entry in the new lineup for Catic is the FC-31 fighter, which resembles the U.S. F-35 in many respects, but is powered with two Russian-made Klimov RD-93 engines. The program has been through more than one major redesign and is now being discussed as the basis for a new carrier-capable aircraft.

These designs now give Catic a full lineup of products to offer for sale abroad. Having overcome the hurdle of being able to design modern-day platforms, the next challenge will be to find countries that are willing to jettison traditional suppliers in the U.S. and Europe and put their faith in Chinese industry.


----------



## fatman17

DEFENSE

More 'Thunder' in China's Air

by Jon Lake

January 2, 2020, 

The Block III JF-17, which incorporates numerous enhancements, made its first flight at Chengdu in mid-December.

December saw the ceremonial rollout of the first batch of eight two-seat, dual-control JF-17B Thunder fighters and also marked the inaugural flight of the first prototype of the new generation Block III JF-17.

The JF-17 Thunder is a lightweight, single-engine, multi-role fighter that was jointly developed by China’s Chengdu Aircraft Corporation (CAC) and the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) and that is in production at PAC's Kamra facility. The JF-17 has not been procured by the People’s Liberation Army Air Force but does also use the alternate FC-1 designation and the Chinese name Xiāo Lóng (Fierce Dragon).

In Pakistan Air Force (PAF) service, the JF-17 Thunder has accumulated about 20,000 operational flying hours since its official introduction to service in 2011. Fifty Block I aircraft were delivered before production switched to the improved Block II in December 2013. The 62 Block II aircraft introduced improved avionics, a new datalink, and improved electronic warfare capabilities as well as increased weapons-carrying capacity. All but the first 24 or so also incorporated an air-to-air refueling capability. Deliveries of the Block II variant ended in June 2019, by which time the PAF had equipped five front-line JF-17 squadrons.

The PAF will also receive 50 more single-seat JF-17s, to be delivered in a new Block III configuration. The Block III prototype made its first flight on December 15, 2019, at Chengdu, and the first two production aircraft are already “in build” at Kamra. The remainder will follow at a rate of 12 per year from 2021 onwards.

The Block III features an Aurora EHUD-2 wide-angle holographic head-up display as used in the new J-20, and a new electronic warfare system incorporating an S740 Airborne Missile Approach Warning System from the J-10C, with relocated infrared missile approach warning sensors. An air-to-air refueling probe light is fitted, and the aircraft has new LED landing lights. Some sources suggest that the airframe is strengthened and that there are further cockpit and avionics improvements (possibly including a single, large-area head-down display), but this cannot be confirmed. The aircraft may have a revised flight management system and a new fly-by-wire flight control system.

Go beyond the headlines with AIN’s free weekly digest of the most important news across the aero defense industry.

Early reports predicted that the aircraft would have a new Chinese-made active electronically scanned array radar to replace the mechanically-scanned KLJ-7V2 X-band multifunction pulse-Doppler radar. There are two options: the Nanjing Research Institute of Electronics Technology’s KLJ-7A and the Leihua Electronic Technology Research Institute’s LKF601E. Reports that the aircraft might be fitted with a Leonardo (Selex) Vixen 1000E seem unlikely.

The aircraft is expected to incorporate a helmet-mounted display (possibly of South African origin, and perhaps to be used in association with the Denel A-Darter high off-boresight within visual range air-to-air missile). It is also expected to be fitted with an additional fuselage hardpoint intended to carry a WMD-7 targeting pod (a Chinese equivalent to the Lockheed Martin sniper pod).

The Thunder has already been used operationally by the PAF, participating in operations against militants in North Waziristan. The PAF also claims that its JF-17s shot down an Indian Air Force MiG-21 and a Su-30MKI on February 27, 2019.

The JF-17 secured its first export contract from Myanmar in June 2015. The first of 16 JF-17Ms (to Block II standard) made its first flight at Chengdu on June 13, 2017, and the type entered service in 2018. The Myanmar order included at least two two-seat JF-17Bs. The prototype JF-17B made its first flight from Chengdu on April 27, 2017, and the Myanmar trainers were delivered by late March 2019.

PAC completed eight two-seat JF-17Bs at Kamra in 2019 and it will produce 14 more in 2020 and four in 2021 to meet PAF requirements. The first batch of eight JF-17Bs was ceremonially rolled out at Kamra on December 27, 2019, in the presence of Air Chief Marshall Mujahid Anwar Khan.

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## StormBreaker

fatman17 said:


> DEFENSE
> 
> More 'Thunder' in China's Air
> 
> by Jon Lake
> 
> January 2, 2020,
> 
> The Block III JF-17, which incorporates numerous enhancements, made its first flight at Chengdu in mid-December.
> 
> December saw the ceremonial rollout of the first batch of eight two-seat, dual-control JF-17B Thunder fighters and also marked the inaugural flight of the first prototype of the new generation Block III JF-17.
> 
> The JF-17 Thunder is a lightweight, single-engine, multi-role fighter that was jointly developed by China’s Chengdu Aircraft Corporation (CAC) and the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) and that is in production at PAC's Kamra facility. The JF-17 has not been procured by the People’s Liberation Army Air Force but does also use the alternate FC-1 designation and the Chinese name Xiāo Lóng (Fierce Dragon).
> 
> In Pakistan Air Force (PAF) service, the JF-17 Thunder has accumulated about 20,000 operational flying hours since its official introduction to service in 2011. Fifty Block I aircraft were delivered before production switched to the improved Block II in December 2013. The 62 Block II aircraft introduced improved avionics, a new datalink, and improved electronic warfare capabilities as well as increased weapons-carrying capacity. All but the first 24 or so also incorporated an air-to-air refueling capability. Deliveries of the Block II variant ended in June 2019, by which time the PAF had equipped five front-line JF-17 squadrons.
> 
> The PAF will also receive 50 more single-seat JF-17s, to be delivered in a new Block III configuration. The Block III prototype made its first flight on December 15, 2019, at Chengdu, and the first two production aircraft are already “in build” at Kamra. The remainder will follow at a rate of 12 per year from 2021 onwards.
> 
> The Block III features an Aurora EHUD-2 wide-angle holographic head-up display as used in the new J-20, and a new electronic warfare system incorporating an S740 Airborne Missile Approach Warning System from the J-10C, with relocated infrared missile approach warning sensors. An air-to-air refueling probe light is fitted, and the aircraft has new LED landing lights. Some sources suggest that the airframe is strengthened and that there are further cockpit and avionics improvements (possibly including a single, large-area head-down display), but this cannot be confirmed. The aircraft may have a revised flight management system and a new fly-by-wire flight control system.
> 
> Go beyond the headlines with AIN’s free weekly digest of the most important news across the aero defense industry.
> 
> Early reports predicted that the aircraft would have a new Chinese-made active electronically scanned array radar to replace the mechanically-scanned KLJ-7V2 X-band multifunction pulse-Doppler radar. There are two options: the Nanjing Research Institute of Electronics Technology’s KLJ-7A and the Leihua Electronic Technology Research Institute’s LKF601E. Reports that the aircraft might be fitted with a Leonardo (Selex) Vixen 1000E seem unlikely.
> 
> The aircraft is expected to incorporate a helmet-mounted display (possibly of South African origin, and perhaps to be used in association with the Denel A-Darter high off-boresight within visual range air-to-air missile). It is also expected to be fitted with an additional fuselage hardpoint intended to carry a WMD-7 targeting pod (a Chinese equivalent to the Lockheed Martin sniper pod).
> 
> The Thunder has already been used operationally by the PAF, participating in operations against militants in North Waziristan. The PAF also claims that its JF-17s shot down an Indian Air Force MiG-21 and a Su-30MKI on February 27, 2019.
> 
> The JF-17 secured its first export contract from Myanmar in June 2015. The first of 16 JF-17Ms (to Block II standard) made its first flight at Chengdu on June 13, 2017, and the type entered service in 2018. The Myanmar order included at least two two-seat JF-17Bs. The prototype JF-17B made its first flight from Chengdu on April 27, 2017, and the Myanmar trainers were delivered by late March 2019.
> 
> PAC completed eight two-seat JF-17Bs at Kamra in 2019 and it will produce 14 more in 2020 and four in 2021 to meet PAF requirements. The first batch of eight JF-17Bs was ceremonially rolled out at Kamra on December 27, 2019, in the presence of Air Chief Marshall Mujahid Anwar Khan.
> 
> View attachment 604104


They should have given credit to pdf for this perfect article resources...



fatman17 said:


> SINGAPORE AIR SHOW
> 
> DEFENSE
> 
> Catic Caters to Customers with Full Line of Fighters
> 
> by Reuben F. Johnson
> 
> February 4, 2020,
> 
> J-20
> 
> Like Russia and the Soviet Union before it, the People’s Republic of China (PRC) has concentrated authority for export of weapons systems into a monopoly of state-run military trading companies. In the case of combat aircraft, the entity responsible is the China National Aero-Technology Import & Export Corporation (Catic).
> 
> Catic has traditionally had a list of sometimes unremarkable products to offer prospective customers, but that has changed with the development of new programs from both the Chengdu Aerospace Corporation (CAC) and its rivals at the Shenyang Aircraft Works (SAC).
> 
> Foremost among these is the Chengdu J-20, which appears to be a stealth aircraft as questions continue about how successful its radar cross-section (RCS) reduction design has been. This is based on numerous photos of more recent versions powered with what appears to be a new Chinese-built WS-10 jet engine variant in which the exhaust nozzle is designed with saw-tooth edge petals to reduce the rear hemisphere signature.
> 
> It is estimated that only four low-rate initial production variants of the WS-10-powered J-20 exist. Previous models appear to be powered by the Salyut AL-31F engine fitted to the Sukhoi Su-27, although Russian sources state the Chengdu design team has shown interest in the Su-35’s AL-41FS-series engine as another option.
> 
> Chengdu’s other major program is the single-engine J-10 fighter, which resembles the design of the Israel Aircraft Industries Lavi technology demonstrator. The latest version features a redesigned diverterless supersonic inlet and is also powered with a WS-10 variant over the AL-31FN originally designed by Salyut for this program.
> 
> J-10
> 
> The last of the three major Chengdu programs is the JF-17 single-engine lightweight fighter that is cooperatively produced with the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) in Kamra. On December 28, 2019, the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) rolled out its first batch of what will be two-seat models of the JF-17 Block III design.
> 
> Go beyond the headlines with AIN’s free weekly digest of the most important news across the aero defense industry.
> 
> “To mark this momentous occasion, a grand ceremony was held at Aircraft Manufacturing Factory Kamra, where Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan was the chief guest,” according to a spokesperson for the PAF. The event was also attended by the Chinese ambassador, Yao Jing, and Aviation Industries of China executive vice president Hao Zhaoping.
> 
> The Air Chief singled out Catic for successfully meeting its 2019 production targets and congratulated the design team for completing the two-seat JF-17 in a record timeframe of five months, calling it a “true manifestation of everlasting friendship between both countries.”
> 
> The Air Chief also cut the ribbon on a new JF-17 dual-seat integration facility at the PAC Avionics Production Factory. “The facility will enable PAF to integrate avionics and weapon systems of choice with JF-17 aircraft, ultimately providing much-needed self-reliance and operational flexibility,” according to a PAF statement.
> 
> JF-17
> 
> SAC’s entry in the new lineup for Catic is the FC-31 fighter, which resembles the U.S. F-35 in many respects, but is powered with two Russian-made Klimov RD-93 engines. The program has been through more than one major redesign and is now being discussed as the basis for a new carrier-capable aircraft.
> 
> These designs now give Catic a full lineup of products to offer for sale abroad. Having overcome the hurdle of being able to design modern-day platforms, the next challenge will be to find countries that are willing to jettison traditional suppliers in the U.S. and Europe and put their faith in Chinese industry.
> 
> View attachment 604101
> View attachment 604102
> View attachment 604103


Surprised that FC-31 has once again been marketed on international platform @Deino , means the program is very well running

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## khanasifm

StormBreaker said:


> They should have given credit to pdf for this perfect article resources...
> 
> 
> Surprised that FC-31 has once again been marketed on international platform @Deino , means the program is very well running



It’s already listed on official website as a product ie f31 but j20 offered for export is new development


----------



## fatman17

An older article containing some good information on the PAF. 



PAF - Quality if not quantity!

Lindsay Peacock visits the Pakistan Air Force as it attempts to modernize its front-line inventory in the face of tight defence budgets.

Over the past decade, the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has undergone a quite significant transformation with regard to the equipment that it operates. Gone are many of the Shenyang F-6s that once constituted the backbone of its air arm, their place having been taken by a mix of 'high tech' western warplanes like the General Dynamics F-16 Fighting Falcon and less sophisticated hardware such as the Nanchang A-5-III Fantan and the Chengdu F-7P ‘Skybolt’. Valuable though this infusion of new equipment is, Pakistani air power is still in the unhappy position of being quantitatively inferior to neighbouring India, which is still perceived as posing the biggest threat to the nation's well-being.

Looking at the qualitative situation, the picture is hardly any brighter, especially now that the USA has opted to suspend Foreign Military Sales (FMS) assistance as an expression of its displeasure over Pakistan's nuclear power programme. That decision probably didn't come as too great a surprise to Pakistan but it is certainly a serious blow to PAF plans, for the service had anticipated taking delivery of a further 71 F-16s with effect from 1992. Now, unless there is a major change of American policy, these will not materialise and it is hardly surprising that there are some in the PAF who perceive the USA as being purely 'fair-weather friends'.

Pakistan's difficulties are compounded by the fact that it is far from being a wealthy country and is therefore not in a position to simply throw money at a problem until it goes away. Cash that is spent on defence could be employed equally well on a score of other projects so it is clearly a case of ensuring that whatever money is available is spent as wisely as possible and in a way that offers the best 'dividend'. That naturally exerts influence on procurement policy and the PAF is now well versed in steering a careful course between the super-sophisticated and highly desirable but inordinately expensive and the considerably less costly but much more numerous 'kits'.

Another way in which the PAF satisfies this requirement is in the pursuit of excellence with regard to its combat echelons. Paradoxically, though, that pursuit is by its very nature an expensive procedure and there is a high wastage rate as pilots progress through the training system, with individuals being weeded out all the way along the line. The end result is felt to be well worth the expense involved, however, and personal observations have certainly convinced the author that the average PAF pilot is almost certainly possessed of superior skills when compared with, say, an average American pilot. As to those who are rated above average, they compare favourably to the very best in a host of western air arms.

PAF organisation has also been subject to change during the past ten years, with one of the most important occurrences relating to the move of Air Headquarters from Peshawar to Chaklala in March 1983, so that it might be closer to the seat of government in Islamabad. Today, the PAF is headed by an Air Chief Marshal who occupies the post of Chief of Air Staff. Assisting him are the Vice-Chief (an Air Marshal) and four Deputy Chiefs (all Air Vice Marshals) who specialise in the areas of operations, administration, training and engineering.

Shortly before the headquarters was relocated, three regional agencies were created in 1981-82 so as to facilitate command and control in peacetime. Specifically, these are the Northern Air Command (with headquarters at Peshawar), the Central Air Command (Sargodha), and the Southern Air Command (Faisal). Each is headed be an Air Vice Marshal and they posses a fair degree of autonomy with regard to the planning and execution of routine operations.

One other vital link exists in the higher levels of the PAF hierarchy, namely the Air Defence Command (ADC) with headquarters at Chaklala. Again headed by an Air Vice Marshal, in time of peace ADC functions mainly in an advisory capacity, monitoring activity and looking after StanEval (Standardisation and Evaluation) matters which are directly concerned with air defence. In the event of war, however, ADC would come into its own, its personnel very quickly being assigned to the Chief of the Air Staff's Battle Staff and assuming responsibility for directing the air defence of the entire country.

Operational resourcesIt is at the operational level that the last decade has perhaps been most exciting, with the new equipment alluded to earlier allowing the PAF to greatly update its combat line-up. As far as tactical resources are concerned, these are distributed amongst a total of seven major air bases, each of which is home to a 'numbered' Wing organisation.

In practice, the number of squadrons assigned to a particular Wing may vary considerably, but this is probably driven as much by geographical constraints as by meeting anticipated threats. By way of illustration, No. 33 Wing at Kamra has only two squadrons while No. 32 at Masroor has five. Some attempt at consolidation of particular aircraft types at particular bases does seem to have occurred but this is far from universal, with, for example, the four tactical units at Masroor flying a mix of hardware that includes the A-5-III, F-7P and Mirage.

At the sharp end, some 20 squadrons presently exist, but only 12 of these are fully-fledged combat-ready units. Of those 12, two have F-16s (Nos 9 and 14 Sqn), three have F-6s (Nos 15, 17 and 23), three have F-7Ps (Nos 2, 18 and 19), two have A-5-IIIs (Nos 16 and 26), one has Mirage IIIEPs and IIIRPs (No 5) and one has Mirage 5PA2s and 5PA3s (No 8). The remaining eight squadrons are all concerned with training but that commitment varies according to the demand for pilots and almost all of them do also have operational roles to fulfil. As a consequence, staff continuation training is usually a feature of the routine flying programme.

Five of these squadrons are commonly referred to as Operational Conversion Units and a good proportion of their effort is directed towards providing a steady stream of qualified aircrew to front-line outfits. Each of the five major types in the PAF inventory is supported be an 'OCU squadron' and these units comprise No 7 (A-5-III), 11 (F-16), 20 (F-7P), 22 (Mirage) and No 25 (F-6).

Harking back to the varying amounts of energy directed towards training, with only some three dozen F-16s on charge, the need for new pilots in any given year is modest and No 11 Squadron is unlikely to find this task too taxing. As a result, it is therefore able to devote time to operational duties, such as annual gunnery qualification at Masroor and, on occasions, air defence alert. Conversely, the No 25 Squadron's brief is almost entirely concerned with training, for virtually all PAF pilots will begin their operational flying careers on the F-6 although a change may well come about in the next year or two as this veteran continues to decline in importance.

The remaining training establishments are aimed at pilots of markedly differing levels of skill. At the top end of the scale, there is the Combat Commanders' School which is responsible for disseminating advanced fighter tactics and doctrine. This has two subordinate units, specifically the 'Mirage Squadron' (with Mirage 5PAs) and the 'F-6 Squadron' (with F-6s). Instructor staff with the CCS are generally acknowledged to be the 'best of the best' and would also have a war role to fulfil in the event of conflict.

Finally, there is No 1 Fighter Conversion Unit at Mianwali. This is the first stop for students fresh from the PAF Academy at Risalpur and it is here, on the Shenyang FT-5, that they begin the process of learning how to become a fighter pilot. In theory, the FT-5 could be called upon to participate in combat - it has a 23mm gun plus a simple radar-ranging gunsight and can carry two AIM-9 Sidewinder infra-red homing air-to-air missiles - but one is inclined to think that there wouldn't be too much enthusiasm about the prospect of going to war in it.

Support elementsSupport elements in the PAF fulfil a variety of roles. Some make a definite contribution to tactical readiness while others are engaged on tasks of a secondary nature.

Quite clearly falling into the first category are the brace of Falcon 20Fs that are flown by No 24 Sqn at Sargodha, for these have been heavily modified in order to provide electronic warfare training support. Also in this category are a small number of Lockheed T-33As which undertake target-towing for units detached to Masroor for gunnery training as well as for the Pakistan Army and Navy. Unusually, though, these are actually assigned to No 2 Sqn which also operates the F-7P, necessitating the creation of separate Flights for each type. As a result, 'A' Flight has the F-7Ps while 'B' Flight looks after the 'T-Birds', its modest complement including a couple of RT-33As which are mostly employed on civil-orientated duties such as mapping and aerial survey.

Airlift resources are consolidated within No 35 (Composite Air Transport) Wing at Chaklala, conveniently close to the Air Headquarters where the Director Air Transport looks after tasking matters. As it has done for many years, the Lockheed Hercules serves as the PAF's work-horse, No 6 (Air Transport Support) Sqn operating a mixed fleet of C-130Bs, C-130Es and former PIA L-382B-4Cs, some of which have been in service for the best part of three decades.

As its title implies, No 12 (VVIP Communications) Sqn is concerned mostly with moving high-ranking officials and dignitaries and its assets include the Presidential F27 Friendship and Falcon 20 as well as a solitary King Air 200 and a pair of Boeing 707s. The latter were also obtained from the national airline, one having a VIP interior while the other is mainly used on long-haul cargo trips.

Transport elements are completed by No 41 (Light Communications) Sqn which operates single examples of the Beech Baron and Piper Seneca as well as a trio of Cessna 172s, but mention should also be made of the Transport Conversion School which provides qualified aircrew for the Hercules as and which required using aircraft 'borrowed' from No 6 Sqn.

Finally half-a-dozen squadrons (No 81 to 86) provide local search and rescue cover at the air bases at Peshawar, Sargodha, Rafiqui-Shorkot, Masroor, Samungli-Quetta and Mianwali. In each case, two Alouette IIIs are operated, these being the only helicopters flown by the PAF.

Pilot TrainingIn much the same way as Cranwell occupies a prominent position in RAF history, so does Risalpur with the PAF, for it is here that students take the first tentative steps towards mastery of the air, courtesy of the PAF Academy. Responsibility for transforming raw cadets into potential officer material and imparting basic flying skills is entrusted to the College of Flying Training (CFT). A long-time resident of Risalpur, the CFT controls two separate and distinct training organisations, namely the Primary Flying Training Wing (PFTW) and the Basic Flying Training Wing (BFTW). Respectively operating the Mushshak and the T-37, each has two subordinate squadrons.

Candidates for pilot training with the CFT (which typically has two 80-student intakes per annum) actually spend well over three years at the Academy, beginning with a two-year BSc (Bachelor of Science) degree course. During that time, they will study a number of aviation-related disciplines such as aerodynamics, engines and navigation but the course also includes general subjects like English language, physics and mathematics as well as specialised interests which embrace topics like Islam's philosophy, Pakistan's history and international affairs. After attending no fewer than 2,640 academic classes, cadets sit the final examination which is set and conducted by Peshawar University.

Only on successfully negotiating that hurdle are they permitted to move on to flying training, beginning with a one-month grading course which will entail some 7-10 hours of flying. Accomplished on Mushshaks of the PFTW, this is designed to establish whether they have the aptitude (and even the stomach) for a flying career and somewhere in the region of 20-25 per cent are 'scratched' at this point.

For those who remain, the next four to five months will prove highly testing, for the rest of the PFTW course requires them to log about 50 hours on the Mushshak. Perhaps the most notable highlight is going 'solo', which should ideally be accomplished in 12-13 hours although it can be extended to 14 hours if the cadet is particularly keen and shows considerable promise in other areas such as academic studies. Failure to 'solo' in this time inevitably results in suspension and wastage is still quite high, generally being of the order of 20 per cent during the PFTW phase, which also includes some simple navigation exercises, simulated 'engine out' recovery procedures and, as a preliminary to the next stage of training, a few hours of basic instrument flying.

By the time they reach the BFTW, it is not unknown for half of the initial intake of 80 to have fallen by the wayside. Those who remain are now introduced to the Cessna T-37 and in the next year those who stay the course will accumulate some 130-135 hours on this long-serving trainer. Again, 'solo' flight should be accomplished in 13 hours, after which the syllabus includes instrument, night and formation flying as well as some aerobatics, medium and low level navigation and a considerable amount of 'circuit bashing'. Wastage in this period is lower but typical attrition rates are around 15-17 per cent and may go higher - as an illustration, of 17 students who began a recent course with No 1 Basic Flying Training Squadron, only ten eventually qualified.

One other important agency come under CFT control, this being the Flying Instructor’s School (FIS). As its title implies, it is responsible for 'teaching the teachers' and is mainly concerned with turning out Qualified Flying Instructors (QFIs) for service with the PAF as well as the Pakistan Army and Navy and some friendly countries.

FIS graduates are usually posted first to either the PFTW or BFTW so as to build up instructional experience. Later, many move on to No 1 FCU, to one of the OCUs or even to the FIS itself. In addition to its teaching task, the FIS ensures that standards are maintained and it achieves this by periodic StanEval checks of instructional staff at Risalpur and Mianwali which are the PAF's two principle flying training establishments.

Candidates for the FIS course are drawn from across the PAF, since it is usual for a pilot to complete one three-year tour of duty as an instructor during his flying career. Course duration is 22 weeks and features three distinct phases. Academics almost inevitably play a part, as does flying, with about 80 hours being logged. Perhaps most important, though, is the matter of instructional technique and much attention is devoted to the honing of teaching skill. Nevertheless, there are failures, for good pilots do not necessarily make good instructors. Intakes vary from 18 to 25 students and these are usually split fairly evenly between the Mushshak and T-37 although a particular course may be 'weighted' towards a particular type, depending on the need for qualified instructional personnel at the time.

Flying instruction is by no means the only training activity that is undertaken at Risalpur, for the College of Aeronautical Engineering (CAE) is also here. A long-time resident of Korangi Creek on the outskirts of Karachi, the CAE actually moved north in May 1986 and is now an important part of the overall PAF Academy organisation.

Basically, it has responsibility for the training of officers who will specialise in the fields of engineering and avionics and it normally offers two courses per annum with a typical intake numbering some 60-65 students. After some three-and-a-half years of study, the successful students leave with a BSc degree in their chosen field.

In addition, the CAE also provides an extensive selection of specialist short courses for PAF officers and individuals from friendly nations. Lasting from one to seven weeks in duration, these cover a variety of technical subjects and disciplines, with aerospace engineering and avionics engineering being prominent among the list.

Advanced trainingAt Risalpur, students learn to fly, with those who are successful earning their cherished 'wings' as well as the lowly rank of Flying Officer and orders to move on to Mianwali. There, they will begin learning how to fly and fight, under the tutelage of the instructors of No 37 (Combat Training) Wing.

The process of transforming the still basically raw Flying Officers into fighter pilots occupies just under a year and this period of advanced training starts with No 1 Fighter Conversion Unit (FCU). This usually runs two courses of about 20 students per course during a typical year but there is sufficient flexibility in the system to permit that level of activity to be increased. However, since the FCU is dependent upon the PAF Academy for its 'raw material', the likelihood of that additional capacity being taken up seems slight, unless there is a drastic revision of the PAF's entire training system.

On arrival at Mianwali, students must first complete two weeks of ground school before they are introduced to the two-seat Shenyang FT-5. A somewhat unattractive but very durable machine, the FT-5 has been in use since 1975 and the PAF is generally quite content with it. Perhaps the greatest reservation voiced by some personnel of No 1 FCU related to the fact that it is 'short-legged', with the result that training sorties seldom exceed 40 minutes. In the early stages of the course, when the learning curve is at its steepest, that is probably more than enough but as the students progress and gain confidence in the FT-5 and their own ability, longer sorties would almost certainly be beneficial.

Over a period of about five months, the log approximately 85 sorties on the FT-5, the course being broken down into a number of distinct phases. These consist of transition (24 sorties), instrument flying (16), close formation (14), battle formation (6), high level navigation (3), low level navigation (2) and advanced handling including aerobatics (20). Finally, it is common to fly five or six 'flex' sorties as a lead-in to the next phase of training.

Inevitably, there is wastage, the level presently running at a rate of around 15-20 per cent - understandably, FCU instructors are far from happy with this situation and efforts are being made to cut the failure rate and obtain greater return on investment. One thing the PAF will not do, however, is lower its standards.

The final stage of advanced training is the prerogative of No 25 (OCU) Sqn, which, at the time of my visit, was flying a mixture of Shenyang F-6s and FT-6s, it being PAF policy to assign all first-tour pilots to a Chinese system (ideally the F-6 but also including the A-5-III). In the past, when the F-6 constituted the backbone of the PAF, that wasn't too difficult but this type is now very much on the way out and is unlikely to remain in front-line service much beyond 1994. In view of that, a policy change seems certain to occur in the near future.

Currently, there is (or, at least, there appears to be) some uncertainty as to the best course of action to pursue but it is likely that the Chengdu F-7P will take over from the F-6 as the principle type flown by 'first-tourists'. Evidence to support that contention is provided by the fact that No 25 Sqn is due to convert to the F-7P (and its two-seat version, the FT-7P).

If present plans are adhered to, this transition will involve nothing more than a simple renumbering exercise. To expand on that, Mianwali's other fighter unit (No 19 Sqn) was in the process of receiving the F-7P during February 1991 and had a total of eight aircraft on hand, with more in prospect. As to those additional machines, nine are expected to be FT-7Ps and it seems that on completion of the transition process, No 19 Sqn will metamorphose into No 25 (OCU) Sqn.

Simultaneously, the present No 25 (OCU) Sqn will adopt the identity of No 19 Sqn, but it is not clear whether the 'new' No 19 will continue to function as an OCU or whether it will dispose of most of the FT-6s and become a purely operational outfit. However, in view of the plans to dispose of the F-6 and the diminishing need for first-tour aircrew, the latter seems most likely, especially as there are plenty of experienced F-6 pilots about who could fill executive positions until such time as the type is finally retired.

In its present guise, No 25 has the F-6 and it is this unit which is responsible for the final phase of advanced training, taking students from No 1 FCU and putting them through about five weeks of ground school followed by five to six months of flying in which some 70-80 sorties are logged. Just over 30 are on the two-seat FT-6 and aspects of the syllabus include basic skills like instrument work, formation flying and navigation.

Operational-type flying also figures prominently, with students being coached in air-to-ground weapons delivery techniques (including live firing of guns and rockets), 1-v-1 and 2-v-2 air combat manoeuvring (with cine film assessment) and low level and tactical strike. At the end, those who remain - normally around 75 per cent - will receive a posting to an operational squadron, but they still have plenty to learn before they can be declared truly combat-ready.

The path of promotionWith very few exceptions, PAF fighter pilots obtain their first taste of squadron life flying a Chinese system. Relatively unsophisticated it may be, but the F-6 (and, to a lesser extent, the A-5-III) has the advantage of being familiar and the three-year duration of this all-important first tour allows an individual to be brought on steadily and build a solid foundation of experience that will stand him in good stead later in his PAF career.

At some stage, that career will usually include a tour of duty as an instructor pilot and a spell with a squadron flying a western type like the Mirage or the F-16 Fighting Falcon. After that, the path to command begins to open up and it is usual at this point to return to a Chinese system in a middle management capacity. This is usually accompanied by promotion to the rank of Squadron Leader and it allows promising individuals to obtain some first-hand knowledge of the demands of leadership.

When it comes to moving further up the ladder, PAF policy seems to be rather ruthless and it is very much a case of 'up or out'. Those who are adjudged worthy to occupy more senior positions must first negotiate the hurdle of the Combat Commanders' School (CCS). In a perfect world, career officers would ideally attend the CCS after completing 12 years of service - in reality, though, they can go there at any time between nine and 12 years. If they graduate, they can expect to lead a squadron in the rank of Wing Commander. If they fail - and some inevitably do, for the CCS course is exacting - they will make no further progress.

Subsequent promotion becomes ever more difficult to achieve, for the number of billets are fewer and the competition is ever more intense, since the PAF believes firmly in the pursuit of excellence. As a consequence of that belief, it is only the best and the brightest who can look forward to going right to the very top. Flying posts along the way include command of a Wing in the rank of Group Captain, and command of a Base in the rank of Air Commodore, interspersed with staff appointments.

For the elite few, a limited number of Air Vice Marshal slots exist, typically as a Deputy Chief of Air Staff or as an Air Officer Commanding of ADC or one of the regional air commands. Above that, it gets very lonely indeed, with the most exalted ranks of the PAF being confined to one Air Marshal (the Vice Chief of the Air Staff) and one Air Chief Marshal (the Chief of the Air Staff).

PAF operating philosophyWith only a somewhat limited quantity of combat aircraft at its disposal, the PAF is very much orientated towards multi-mission capability although the geographical area of operation and the equipment that is assigned do exert influence on the nature of those missions and to some extent the amount of time that is dedicated to training for them.

Regardless of the type that they fly, all PAF aircrew are expected to be proficient in air-to-air combat and all types do, as a matter of routine, pull their fair share of air defence alert (ADA) duty, although obviously, the F-16 is rather more potent than, say, the A-5-III. For a start, it has its own radar, which allows the pilot to assume responsibility for an intercept at a much earlier stage than an A-5 pilot who will be dependent upon GCI (Ground Control Intercept) support until such time as he is able to obtain a visual contact.

The F-16's superior capability as an interceptor is one reason why some of these machines are maintained on alert on a year-round basis and it also helps to explain why they were able to account for several Afghan and one Soviet aircraft in the mid-to-late 1980s when airspace violations were an irritatingly frequent occurrence. As far as the F-16 is concerned, ADA duty is mostly undertaken by Nos 9 and 14 Sqns, aided occasionally by No 11 Sqn when it can be spared from OCU tasks.

Armament carried by the F-16 comprises a mix of AIM-9L and AIM-9P Sidewinder missiles and the integral Vulcan M61 20mm gun. The trusty Sidewinder also features prominently in the air-to-air armoury of most other PAF types but the number of missiles carried is limited to two AIM-9Ps in the cases of the A-5-III and F-6. Two missiles - either the AIM-9P or the somewhat similar Matra Magic - can also be carried by the F-7 while the Mirage's air-to-air weapon load is dependent upon variant, with the dwindling number of IIIEPs being compatible with either the radar-guided or the IR-homing Matra R.530 and the Magic, unlike the 5Ps which can only use the latter. ADA duty periods usually involve three aircraft, with squadrons at a particular base taking turns when it comes to responsibility for this task.

In addition to air defence, all units train in air-to-surface missions as a matter of course, although the types of target that they might be called upon to engage vary. For the most part, PAF squadrons operating the F-6 and A-5-III are tasked to operate in support of the Army with close air support (CAS) and battlefield air interdiction (BAI) missions absorbing much of their energies. Neither machine is able to deliver 'smart' ordinance but the arsenal of the A-5 includes conventional bombs as well as cluster bomb units, unguided air-to-surface rockets and the Durandal runway cratering bomb, which, while it may not be 'smart', is at least 'reasonably intelligent'.

In addition, both types have gun armament for strafe attacks on 'soft' targets, the A-5 relying on a pair of Type-23-2 23mm cannon while the F-6 has three Nudelmann-Richter 30 mm guns, the heavier calibre of this weapon to some extent compensating for a slower firing rate. Annual training places considerable emphasis on air-to-air and air-to-ground gunnery and each squadron undergoes two weeks of live aerial firing over the sea near Masroor every year. Standards of accuracy appear comparable to those of the west and may surpass them, one F-6 pilot of No 15 Sqn having recently put 20 out of 25 shells through a banner in four successive passes. The author can vouch for this, having inspected the banner at Kamra and even more remarkably, the pilot responsible for this impressive shooting was a 'first-tourist'.

Deep penetration attacks would mainly be the preserve of the Mirage and the F-16 and, yet again, it is fair to say that the latter is the most potent type in the PAF inventory, since it is compatible with both 'dumb' and 'smart' weapons and has the ability to operate effectively by both day or night. Ordnance which may be delivered by the Fighting Falcon includes the AGM-65 Maverick TV-guided air-to-surface missile, 'slick' and 'retard' bombs (mainly Mk 82s and Mk 84s) and the Mk 20 cluster bomb unit. For precision attacks against 'hard' targets, it may also use laser-guided munitions like the Mk 84 2,000 lb bomb.

PAF capability also extends to maritime operations in support of the Navy but the amount of resources committed are far fewer, being limited to a single Mirage unit. This is No 8 Sqn at Masroor and its complement includes about a dozen Mirage 5PA3s with Agave radar, these being configured to carry and launch the AM.39 Exocet anti-ship attack missile. No 8 also uses some examples of the non-Exocet capable Mirage 5PA2.

Other missions undertaken by the PAF include tactical reconnaissance, about a dozen long-serving Mirage IIIRPs being the sole assets assigned to this role but even these are likely to have a secondary attack capability.

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## StormBreaker

khanasifm said:


> It’s already listed on official website as a product ie f31 but j20 offered for export is new development


J-20 isn’t offered for export, just displayed as their achievement, nothing more.

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## fatman17

AFAIK the first image of the KLJ-7A variant with the additional cheek arrays with the yellow cover removed ... anyone want to count the elements?
For comparison an older image with the yellow cover attached.

(Images via by78/SDF) https://t.co/KEFerEWnyq

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## fatman17

Great iamge of a PAF JF-17 - serial 12-140 - assigned to the No. 2 Squadron 'Minhas' loaded with a C-802AK AShM.

(Image via Dazzler/PDF) https://t.co/5I6hqduyjY

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## fatman17

The PAF's CCS (Combat Commanders School) introduced a new tail art logo for their JF-17s: a Dragon. [emoji236]

(Images by Ashan Malik via Windjammer/PDF and via Trailer23/PDF) https://t.co/OXkKftJc3D

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## khanasifm

Dragon

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## StormBreaker

fatman17 said:


> Great iamge of a PAF JF-17 - serial 12-140 - assigned to the No. 2 Squadron 'Minhas' loaded with a C-802AK AShM.
> 
> (Image via Dazzler/PDF) https://t.co/5I6hqduyjY
> View attachment 604277


Karachi ki hawa ne iska rang bhi nai bakhsha...

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## HRK

StormBreaker said:


> Karachi ki hawa ne iska rang bhi nai bakhsha...


rang choroo sehat dekhoo ....

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## fatman17

*JF-17 Block III Fierce Dragon/Thunder*



The first *JF-17* Block III prototype (#3000) just returned to the CAC airfield from its maiden flight on December 15, 2019. As the latest variant of *JF-17*, Block III carries PAF's ambition to counter IAF's most powerful 3.5th generation fighter Rafale. The aircraft is expected to feature a more powerful engine (WS-13E? 9,000kg class), a new AESA radar developed by NETRI/14th Institute (KLJ-7A, range 170km, track 15, engage 4) or by the 607 Institute (LKF601E, air cooled), HMDS, IRST, upgraded EW suite, new datalink, full authority digital FBW and a variety of air-to-air and air-to-ground guided weapons including PL-10E IIR guided AAM as well as PL-15E active radar homing AAM (using twin launch rails). Additional hard points are installed including ones underneath the engine air intake for ECM or targeting pod. Images of the first flight indicated the *JF-17* Block III prototype features a *J-20* style narrow frame wide-angle holographic HUD (EHUD-2?), a slightly enlarged spine, and new forward MAWS sensors behind the engine air intakes. The rear MAWS sensors were relocated to the EW compartment on top of the vertical tail fin as well. Otherwise the overall aerodynamic configuration remains the unchanged and the aircraft is still powered by the original RD-93 engine. The latest report (February 2020) suggested that the KLJ-7A AESA radar has been chosen by PAF.
_- Last Updated 2/8/19_

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## StormBreaker

fatman17 said:


> *JF-17 Block III Fierce Dragon/Thunder*
> 
> 
> 
> The first *JF-17* Block III prototype (#3000) just returned to the CAC airfield from its maiden flight on December 15, 2019. As the latest variant of *JF-17*, Block III carries PAF's ambition to counter IAF's most powerful 3.5th generation fighter Rafale. The aircraft is expected to feature a more powerful engine (WS-13E? 9,000kg class), a new AESA radar developed by NETRI/14th Institute (KLJ-7A, range 170km, track 15, engage 4) or by the 607 Institute (LKF601E, air cooled), HMDS, IRST, upgraded EW suite, new datalink, full authority digital FBW and a variety of air-to-air and air-to-ground guided weapons including PL-10E IIR guided AAM as well as PL-15E active radar homing AAM (using twin launch rails). Additional hard points are installed including ones underneath the engine air intake for ECM or targeting pod. Images of the first flight indicated the *JF-17* Block III prototype features a *J-20* style narrow frame wide-angle holographic HUD (EHUD-2?), a slightly enlarged spine, and new forward MAWS sensors behind the engine air intakes. The rear MAWS sensors were relocated to the EW compartment on top of the vertical tail fin as well. Otherwise the overall aerodynamic configuration remains the unchanged and the aircraft is still powered by the original RD-93 engine. The latest report (February 2020) suggested that the KLJ-7A AESA radar has been chosen by PAF.
> _- Last Updated 2/8/19_


Huitong


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## aliyusuf

StormBreaker said:


> Huitong


Chinese-military-aviation.blogspot


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## Pakistani Fighter

fatman17 said:


> *JF-17 Block III Fierce Dragon/Thunder*
> 
> 
> 
> The first *JF-17* Block III prototype (#3000) just returned to the CAC airfield from its maiden flight on December 15, 2019. As the latest variant of *JF-17*, Block III carries PAF's ambition to counter IAF's most powerful 3.5th generation fighter Rafale. The aircraft is expected to feature a more powerful engine (WS-13E? 9,000kg class), a new AESA radar developed by NETRI/14th Institute (KLJ-7A, range 170km, track 15, engage 4) or by the 607 Institute (LKF601E, air cooled), HMDS, IRST, upgraded EW suite, new datalink, full authority digital FBW and a variety of air-to-air and air-to-ground guided weapons including PL-10E IIR guided AAM as well as PL-15E active radar homing AAM (using twin launch rails). Additional hard points are installed including ones underneath the engine air intake for ECM or targeting pod. Images of the first flight indicated the *JF-17* Block III prototype features a *J-20* style narrow frame wide-angle holographic HUD (EHUD-2?), a slightly enlarged spine, and new forward MAWS sensors behind the engine air intakes. The rear MAWS sensors were relocated to the EW compartment on top of the vertical tail fin as well. Otherwise the overall aerodynamic configuration remains the unchanged and the aircraft is still powered by the original RD-93 engine. The latest report (February 2020) suggested that the KLJ-7A AESA radar has been chosen by PAF.
> _- Last Updated 2/8/19_


Engine is same


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## StormBreaker

aliyusuf said:


> Chinese-military-aviation.blogspot


This is huitong’s blogspot


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## khanasifm

fatman17 said:


> *JF-17 Block III Fierce Dragon/Thunder*
> 
> 
> 
> The first *JF-17* Block III prototype (#3000) just returned to the CAC airfield from its maiden flight on December 15, 2019. As the latest variant of *JF-17*, Block III carries PAF's ambition to counter IAF's most powerful 3.5th generation fighter Rafale. The aircraft is expected to feature a more powerful engine (WS-13E? 9,000kg class), a new AESA radar developed by NETRI/14th Institute (KLJ-7A, range 170km, track 15, engage 4) or by the 607 Institute (LKF601E, air cooled), HMDS, IRST, upgraded EW suite, new datalink, full authority digital FBW and a variety of air-to-air and air-to-ground guided weapons including PL-10E IIR guided AAM as well as PL-15E active radar homing AAM (using twin launch rails). Additional hard points are installed including ones underneath the engine air intake for ECM or targeting pod. Images of the first flight indicated the *JF-17* Block III prototype features a *J-20* style narrow frame wide-angle holographic HUD (EHUD-2?), a slightly enlarged spine, and new forward MAWS sensors behind the engine air intakes. The rear MAWS sensors were relocated to the EW compartment on top of the vertical tail fin as well. Otherwise the overall aerodynamic configuration remains the unchanged and the aircraft is still powered by the original RD-93 engine. The latest report (February 2020) suggested that the KLJ-7A AESA radar has been chosen by PAF.
> _- Last Updated 2/8/19_



Noticed the first prototype has no gun installed so slowly additional goodies will be added /tested on the platform and it may take few years for completed system integration testing on aircraft assuming bench testing competed anyway paf will keep building base platform/aircraft and add goodies


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## Lord Of Gondor



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## hassan1



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## litman

off topic but whenever i see any president of pakistan i always think what he is doing actually? what is his job? why this poor nation needs to spend so much in maintaining a useless office and a useless person?
attending ceremonies and parades, giving medals and certificates etc. a farmer working in his fields growing food for his family and for the nation is 100 times more useful for the nation then this office. but our politicians will never agree to remove this office as through this office they get a chance to oblige someone or some party.


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## The Eagle

It's February and Modi Establishment is still licking their wounds. I wouldn't be surprised if they are frustrated to settle the score and washout stains especially since invested a lot with their friends from West & M.E. Despite being caught in surprise & being shocked with the beating by PAF; they still managed to peddle their usual propaganda to delude their masses and in the meantime been preparing for lot more than before to forge history even if they are able to take down a stone in Pakistan Territory. Stay vigilant boys.

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## fatman17

Author Shahid Reza

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## Ahmet Pasha

Isn't this published by Dr. Moeed Pirzada???


fatman17 said:


> Author Shahid Reza
> View attachment 604822
> View attachment 604823

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## akramishaqkhan

Team how can I get hi res video of PAF. I am interested in building an AirForce hype video and require the best possible sources of videos. Any help would be appreciated.


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## PakFactor

Hold up has anyone got the subscription for Janes and let us know what his article stated.


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## The Eagle

Perfectly loaded.

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## fatman17

PAF JF17 patches

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## Inception-06

fatman17 said:


> Author Shahid Reza
> View attachment 604822
> View attachment 604823




Can you upload it ?


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## PakShaheen79

Inception-06 said:


> Can you upload it ?



Search Global Village Space website, it is available there.

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## StormBreaker

PakFactor said:


> Hold up has anyone got the subscription for Janes and let us know what his article stated.


If it was really significant, it would have been made news after all this time, so i am judging that the article is of not much importance for us


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## Tank131

fatman17 said:


> PAF JF17 patches
> View attachment 605939
> View attachment 605940



Second patch would be better with a picture of a mig being downed and saying "Sleep, Fly, Annihilate, Repatriate" with a tiny pic of abhinandan drinking chai

Lolz

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## Talon

@Windjammer sir here's another view of Masroor

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## fatman17

For the moment I wasn't able to find the original source but Huitong reports that according to a Nigerian Air Force spokesman the three JF-17N 'Thunder' fighters ordered by the Nigerian Air Force will be delivered in November this year.

(Via Huitong's CMA blog) https://t.co/SulpKqH0Ur

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## HRK

fatman17 said:


> For the moment I wasn't able to find the original source but Huitong reports that according to a Nigerian Air Force spokesman the three JF-17N 'Thunder' fighters ordered by the Nigerian Air Force will be delivered in November this year.
> 
> (Via Huitong's CMA blog) https://t.co/SulpKqH0Ur
> View attachment 606622


Excerpt of Nigerian Air force Chief Speech delivered yesterday[Official Source]


> The CAS further disclosed that the NAF was in the process of acquiring the JF-17 Thunder aircraft and the Super Tucano (A-29) light attack aircraft.
> 
> *According to him, the JF-17 was due in Nigeria by November 2020*



@Deino FYI as well

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## fatman17

Asia Pacific

Pakistan tests a new cruise missile. Can it hit inside India?

By: Usman Ansari   

Pakistan's Ra'ad cruise missile has been upgraded with almost double the range. Pictured is the Ra'ad I missile, an older version of the weapon, in a 2008 file photo. (Usman Ansari/Staff)

ISLAMABAD — Pakistan on Tuesday carried out a successful test of its latest Ra’ad-II air-launched cruise missile, with a new range of 600 kilometers.

According to the military’s ISPR media branch, the homegrown Ra’ad-II “significantly enhances air delivered strategic standoff capability on land and at sea." The weapon features enhanced guidance and navigation systems, “ensuring engagement of targets with high precision.”

When first unveiled as a mock-up in 2017 during an annual parade in Pakistan, the Ra’ad-II had a stated range of 550 kilometers. Slight changes to the intake design led to speculation that the extra range has been achieved due to a more advanced engine than that used in the Ra’ad-I, which has a range of 350 kilometers.

Pakistan wants to create a self-reliant, self-sustained defense industry

The Pakistani government is promoting aims to increase public-private cooperation. But the private sector is skeptical.


That speculation may have been correct. Though the footage from Tuesday’s test was deliberately low resolution, the rear of the Ra’ad-II appears to have been entirely redesigned with a new intake and control surfaces.

The Ra’ad-I had what may be described a large “twin tail,” whereas the Ra’ad-II appears to have adopted a more compact "X" configuration layout common with similar missiles in service elsewhere. That change should aid in its carriage on a wider range of platforms, perhaps even internally if Pakistan’s fifth-generation fighter program, Project Azm, bears fruit and features an internal weapons bay.

To date, the Ra’ad missiles have only been seen carried by Mirage III strike fighters, which have a wide-track undercarriage.

The range increase would allow the missile to launch well within Pakistan’s territory while being able to hit critical targets within India — New Delhi is roughly 430 kilometers from Lahore, for instance. That need has taken on a greater importance due to India’s air defense modernization efforts through the acquisition of systems such as the Russian S-400.




Washington also recently cleared the Integrated Air Defense System for sale to India.

Mansoor Ahmed, a senior fellow at the Center for International Strategic Studies in Islamabad who specializes in Pakistan’s nuclear program and its delivery platforms, believes the Ra’ad-II is “Pakistan’s answer to India’s development of the Nirbhay cruise missile.”

He believes Ra’ad-II “will significantly enhance the operational and targeting flexibility of the air leg of Pakistan's strategic forces.”

“It gives enhanced capability for precision strikes against critical military targets on land and at sea from safer standoff ranges. With its extended range, hitherto invulnerable sites, forces and assets can now be taken out with greater precision that were previously only covered by Pakistan’s ballistic missiles," he said.

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## fatman17

fatman17 said:


> Asia Pacific
> 
> Pakistan tests a new cruise missile. Can it hit inside India?
> 
> By: Usman Ansari
> 
> Pakistan's Ra'ad cruise missile has been upgraded with almost double the range. Pictured is the Ra'ad I missile, an older version of the weapon, in a 2008 file photo. (Usman Ansari/Staff)
> 
> ISLAMABAD — Pakistan on Tuesday carried out a successful test of its latest Ra’ad-II air-launched cruise missile, with a new range of 600 kilometers.
> 
> According to the military’s ISPR media branch, the homegrown Ra’ad-II “significantly enhances air delivered strategic standoff capability on land and at sea." The weapon features enhanced guidance and navigation systems, “ensuring engagement of targets with high precision.”
> 
> When first unveiled as a mock-up in 2017 during an annual parade in Pakistan, the Ra’ad-II had a stated range of 550 kilometers. Slight changes to the intake design led to speculation that the extra range has been achieved due to a more advanced engine than that used in the Ra’ad-I, which has a range of 350 kilometers.
> 
> Pakistan wants to create a self-reliant, self-sustained defense industry
> 
> The Pakistani government is promoting aims to increase public-private cooperation. But the private sector is skeptical.
> 
> 
> That speculation may have been correct. Though the footage from Tuesday’s test was deliberately low resolution, the rear of the Ra’ad-II appears to have been entirely redesigned with a new intake and control surfaces.
> 
> The Ra’ad-I had what may be described a large “twin tail,” whereas the Ra’ad-II appears to have adopted a more compact "X" configuration layout common with similar missiles in service elsewhere. That change should aid in its carriage on a wider range of platforms, perhaps even internally if Pakistan’s fifth-generation fighter program, Project Azm, bears fruit and features an internal weapons bay.
> 
> To date, the Ra’ad missiles have only been seen carried by Mirage III strike fighters, which have a wide-track undercarriage.
> 
> The range increase would allow the missile to launch well within Pakistan’s territory while being able to hit critical targets within India — New Delhi is roughly 430 kilometers from Lahore, for instance. That need has taken on a greater importance due to India’s air defense modernization efforts through the acquisition of systems such as the Russian S-400.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Washington also recently cleared the Integrated Air Defense System for sale to India.
> 
> Mansoor Ahmed, a senior fellow at the Center for International Strategic Studies in Islamabad who specializes in Pakistan’s nuclear program and its delivery platforms, believes the Ra’ad-II is “Pakistan’s answer to India’s development of the Nirbhay cruise missile.”
> 
> He believes Ra’ad-II “will significantly enhance the operational and targeting flexibility of the air leg of Pakistan's strategic forces.”
> 
> “It gives enhanced capability for precision strikes against critical military targets on land and at sea from safer standoff ranges. With its extended range, hitherto invulnerable sites, forces and assets can now be taken out with greater precision that were previously only covered by Pakistan’s ballistic missiles," he said.


RA AD

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## Path-Finder

I was thinking what Pakistan can really do with is a VTOL striker and bomber. It makes sense as you dont need runways for it. In a time of war runways will be decimated, I know that other roads can become runways but VTOL can eliminate the need for one.


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## Ultima Thule

Path-Finder said:


> I was thinking what Pakistan can really do with is a VTOL striker and bomber. It makes sense as you dont need runways for it. In a time of war runways will be decimated, I know that other roads can become runways but VTOL can eliminate the need for one.


but VTOL means very high maintenance cost , Bombers NO but fighter bombers or deep strike jets in class of Su-34/F-15E/J-16 then THE ANSWER is YES


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## Bossman

Path-Finder said:


> I was thinking what Pakistan can really do with is a VTOL striker and bomber. It makes sense as you dont need runways for it. In a time of war runways will be decimated, I know that other roads can become runways but VTOL can eliminate the need for one.


Stupid! By the time Pakistan gets to that it will be to late.


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## Path-Finder

seven0seven said:


> but VTOL means very high maintenance cost , Bombers NO but fighter bombers or deep strike jets in class of Su-34/F-15E/J-16 then THE ANSWER is YES


maintenance is only a major issue if spares and appropriate personnel needed to maintain/service are not locally available.



Bossman said:


> Stupid!


why hurt my feelings


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## aliyusuf

Path-Finder said:


> I was thinking what Pakistan can really do with is a VTOL striker and bomber. It makes sense as you dont need runways for it. In a time of war runways will be decimated, I know that other roads can become runways but VTOL can eliminate the need for one.


Nobody can deny the utility of VTOL/STOL/STOVL aircraft. But this utility comes at a price of expending extra fuel to attain lift or to land on engine power without or minimal wing support. This means limitation in time on station or combat range. AA-Refueling would defeat the purpose of having VTOL aircraft ... because that would mean that there is dependency on airfields as the AA-Refueler aircraft itself is airfield dependent. A sort of a catch 22 situation. Only place where VTOL aircraft make true sense are aircraft carriers. Harrier GR.1 of the RAF entered service in 1969 and today only the AV-8B Harrier-II and the F-35B STOVL fighters of these special type are in service. Also such aircraft are very maintenance insensitive and Harriers's high attrition rate has not helped the cause of this type.

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## Bossman

Path-Finder said:


> why hurt my feelings



Are you a sissy boy that your feelings get hurt so easily?


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## Path-Finder

aliyusuf said:


> Nobody can deny the utility of VTOL/STOL/STOVL aircraft. But this utility comes at a price of expending extra fuel to attain lift or to land on engine power without or minimal wing support. This means limitation in time on station or combat range. AA-Refueling would defeat the purpose of having VTOL aircraft ... because that would mean that there is dependency on airfields as the AA-Refueler aircraft itself is airfield dependent. A sort of a catch 22 situation. Only place where VTOL aircraft make true sense are aircraft carriers. Harrier GR.1 of the RAF entered service in 1969 and today only the AV-8B Harrier-II and the F-35B STOVL fighters of these special type are in service. Also such aircraft are very maintenance insensitive and Harriers's high attrition rate has not helped the cause of this type.


I am not talking about harrier jump jet those were of a bygone era I am talking about the new entries into it! F35 VTOL and onwards even China is looking at it Russia is going to revive it too. from Pakistan's perspectives they can play a role in air defence and denial of air superiority in our territory among other roles. As for expensive well name one thing that is not maintain/cost savvy?



Bossman said:


> Are you a sissy boy that your feelings get hurt so easily.


does talking about VTOL upset you?

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## Ultima Thule

Path-Finder said:


> I am not talking about harrier jump jet those were of a bygone era I am talking about the new entries into it! F35 VTOL and onwards even China is looking at it Russia is going to revive it too. from Pakistan's perspectives they can play a role in air defence and denial of air superiority in our territory among other roles. As for expensive well name one thing that is not maintain/cost savvy?


Compare to traditional jet VTOL/STOL is more maintenance prone and costly range is limited because of extra gear on the fuselage for STOL


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## aliyusuf

Path-Finder said:


> I am not talking about harrier jump jet those were of a bygone era I am talking about the new entries into it! F35 VTOL and onwards even China is looking at it Russia is going to revive it too. from Pakistan's perspectives they can play a role in air defence and denial of air superiority in our territory among other roles. As for expensive well name one thing that is not maintain/cost savvy?


I savvy. F-35s are off limits to us, in any of it's variants. Apart from the F-35B, there are no other VTOL fighter in production. 

VOTL comes at a price on range, performance and mission load. 

Fighter engine technology need a leap based on which VTOL become feasible.


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## Path-Finder

seven0seven said:


> Compare to traditional jet VTOL/STOL is more maintenance prone and costly range is limited because of extra gear on the fuselage for STOL


I am not talking about old VTOL they were made in an era before modern CAD/CAM existed. So many technical issues that existed in those aircraft are should not present with advances made in many spheres of knowledge and technical know how.

anyway its just a suggestion not meant to upset some people.



aliyusuf said:


> I savvy. F-35s are off limits to us, in any of it's variants. Apart from the F-35B, there are no other VTOL fighter in production.
> 
> VOTL comes at a price on range, performance and mission load.
> 
> Fighter engine technology need a leap based on which VTOL become feasible.


F35 is a good test bed which uses Yak design bureaus principles onboard. The basis exists and it has worked in the shape of F35. Not saying to pursue F35!! Like F16 is a gateway to JF17 vice versa.

I am thinking of VTOL from Pakistan's prospects. Territory wise our enemy is on our doorstep and the distance is extremely short for any mal intentions in materialising. VTOL can be the very first line of defence to the last line of defence. Other fighters can do their job of necessary deep strike etc, but a VTOL will not be bound to terrain or weather for taking off.

again just a discussion/suggestion not trying to offend some people.


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## Ultima Thule

Path-Finder said:


> I am not talking about old VTOL they were made in an era before modern CAD/CAM existed. So many technical issues that existed in those aircraft are should not present with advances made in many spheres of knowledge and technical know how.
> 
> anyway its just a suggestion not meant to upset some people.
> 
> 
> F35 is a good test bed which uses Yak design bureaus principles onboard. The basis exists and it has worked in the shape of F35. Not saying to pursue F35!! Like F16 is a gateway to JF17 vice versa.
> 
> I am thinking of VTOL from Pakistan's prospects. Territory wise our enemy is on our doorstep and the distance is extremely short for any mal intentions in materialising. VTOL can be the very first line of defence to the last line of defence. Other fighters can do their job of necessary deep strike etc, but a VTOL will not be bound to terrain or weather for taking off.
> 
> again just a discussion/suggestion not trying to offend some people.


Modern STOL jet more complex and maintenance intensive than previous STOL and very costly, you thinking are good but in full fledged war with our enemy these bases will be destroyed in minutes ( BM)


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## fatman17

Air-Launched Weapons
*Pakistan test-launches longer-range variant of Ra’ad II ALCM*
*Gabriel Dominguez, London* - Jane's Defence Weekly
19 February 2020



Pakistan announced on 18 February that it has test-launched a new variant of its Ra'ad II nuclear-capable, air-launched cruise missile (ALCM) with a range of 600 km.





A still from a low-resolution video provided by Pakistan's ISPR showing a PAF Mirage III fighter launching the latest variant of the Ra'ad II ALCM with a range of 600 km. (ISPR)

In a statement, Inter-Services Public Relations (ISPR), the media wing of the Pakistani military, said that the 600 km range of the new missile "significantly enhances" the PAF's "air-delivered strategic stand-off capability on land and at sea".

The new missile variant, which was shown in a low-resolution video being launched from a Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Mirage III fighter aircraft, "is equipped with state-of-the-art guidance and navigation systems ensuring engagement of targets with high precision", said the ISPR, referring to the weapon system as "a major step towards complementing Pakistan's deterrence capability".





Rare Erieye

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## Talon

MastanKhan said:


> -write something with substance in it---.


Dekho to keh kon raha..!

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## Windjammer



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## ghazi52

1969: Tail of an Indian Canberra bomber shot down in the 1965 war and exhibited here on public display in Sahiwal, Punjab







Somebody is mentioning that it was Given back to India by B. Bhutto. Or may be stolen.

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## SD 10

ghazi52 said:


> 1969: Tail of an Indian Canberra bomber shot down in the 1965 war and exhibited here on public display in Sahiwal, Punjab
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Somebody is mentioning that it was Given back to India by B. Bhutto. Or may be stolen.


No i am from Sahiwal. It was there for a long time and then due to no maintenance it got rusty, so district management throw it away. But everyone know the story. Its still jahaz chowk

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## loanranger

My tribute to PAF in leu of Feb 26/27.

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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1212946386494181376

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## MastanKhan

Path-Finder said:


> you have perfectly displayed the 'small man at a high place' or in big britches. you cannot stomach an opinion but act the arse end!
> 
> We tolerate your manure without becoming counts! why is difficult to stomach someone else's POV?



Hi,

My consideration have military and tactical backing to it---keeping in mind the cost factor and supposed value received.

Your opinion was---without merit---.

It had no concept of cost factor---engineering and design---function and utility---operational capabilities---.

You need to step back and re-think your position and re-assess what you wrote---.

Getting mad at me or hurling insults at me won't do you any good or change my position---.

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## Path-Finder

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Worthless opinions are and should be outright rejected---.
> 
> My consideration have military and tactical backing to it---keeping in mind the cost factor and supposed value received.
> 
> Your opinion was totally thoughtless---without merit---no common sense---.
> 
> It had no concept of cost factor---engineering and design---function and utility---operational capabilities---.
> 
> You need to step back and re-think your position and re-assess what you wrote---.
> 
> Getting mad at me or hurling insults at me won't do you any good or change my position---.


Ego kills a man!


----------



## StormBreaker

Path-Finder said:


> I do my utmost to kill ego & arrogance, aim to be humble in life. being humble has no expiry date!


I would disagree with your statement here, VTOL is a last measure step used specifically for Carriers, the associated operational cost and maintenance, as well as the very low life of airframe, and the constant troubles with the engine, such a tech is a headache for even US Marines at the moment, let alone Pakistan or even india. The costs associated will be nightmare, and in lesser time, structural integrity would lessen. Now, we are not “THAT CLOSE” to india that we need such sort if aircrafts, Our front line fighters and generally whole of our fleet has considerably low RCS, can evade radar detection for a good amount of time and altitude matters as well, you fly low after takeoff, or fly away from India until The aircraft is all set to engage.

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## MastanKhan

StormBreaker said:


> I would disagree with your statement here, VTOL is a last measure step used specifically for Carriers, the associated operational cost and maintenance, as well as the very low life of airframe, and the constant troubles with the engine, such a tech is a headache for even US Marines at the moment, let alone Pakistan or even india. The costs associated will be nightmare, and in lesser time, structural integrity would lessen. Now, we are not “THAT CLOSE” to india that we need such sort if aircrafts, Our front line fighters and generally whole of our fleet has considerably low RCS, can evade radar detection for a good amount of time and altitude matters as well, you fly low after takeoff, or fly away from India until The aircraft is all set to engage.



Hi,

The JF17 would start---take off and be at 15000 ft altitude even before the VTOL gets up in the air---if they both went thru the start up process at the same time---.

Kids just don't understand and don't want to understand that there is more to it than just to have an aircraft---.



Path-Finder said:


> that is a shoddy come back! Some of the greatest Humans were humble!



Some of the greatest conquerers were ars-eholes as well---.

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## The Eagle

Please avoided judging each other and lest continue with topic in hand. Evaluate content, argue with substance & quality without getting personal and share some knowledge. Thread topic doesn't require to judge each other on personal grounds or degrade anyone by any means.

Regards,

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## Trailer23

loanranger said:


> My tribute to PAF in leu of Feb 26/27.


I sent you a message on YouTube...

Don't have the privilege on PDF.


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## fatman17

PAF in full rehearsal over Clifton, Karachi for Op Swift Retort

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## Windjammer

*Bomb Release......*







*Bomb Impact.





*

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## ghazi52

__ https://www.facebook.com/


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## fatman17

Paf jf-17 firing C-802 https://t.co/DrIvJaLt2b

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## fatman17

Seems as if the PAF's No. 16 Squadron 'Black Panthers' have a new tail-art or logo for their JF-17s as shown on this one numbered 18-256.

(Image via Zohaib Malik) https://t.co/vlenCNOBeJ

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## fatman17

16 Sqn Panthers

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## ghazi52



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## Trailer23



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## The Eagle



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## syed_yusuf

The Eagle said:


>


Go ghumman make us all proud

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## fatman17

Great comparison of both a J-10C powered by the WS-10C and a J-10B powered by the AL-31FN.

(Image via HF-8086 at https://t.co/ijf52hrL5U) https://t.co/WI6nLBHULx

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## razgriz19

Interesting...so PAF is mixing block 1 and 2 in squadrons


fatman17 said:


> Seems as if the PAF's No. 16 Squadron 'Black Panthers' have a new tail-art or logo for their JF-17s as shown on this one numbered 18-256.
> 
> (Image via Zohaib Malik) https://t.co/vlenCNOBeJ
> View attachment 609043
> View attachment 609044

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## fatman17

Falcon20 EW - Blinders

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## Ahmet Pasha

This beauty must've done wonders 


fatman17 said:


> View attachment 610641
> 
> View attachment 610642
> 
> Falcon20 EW - Blinders

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## Myth_buster_1

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 610641
> 
> View attachment 610642
> 
> Falcon20 EW - Blinders


i think this one is the vip version not ew.


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## fatman17

Myth_buster_1 said:


> i think this one is the vip version not ew.



multi-role. only 2 aircraft in inventory

*Pakistan cannot get enough of America’s F-16 Fighting Falcon*
By
PAF Falcons
-
December 21, 2019



&lt;img width="696" height="435" class="entry-thumb td-modal-image" src="http://paffalcons.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/Pakistan-cannot-get-enough-of-Americas-F-16-Fighting-Falcon-696x435.jpg" srcset="http://paffalcons.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/Pakistan-cannot-get-enough-of-Americas-F-16-Fighting-Falcon-696x435.jpg 696w, http://paffalcons.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/Pakistan-cannot-get-enough-of-Americas-F-16-Fighting-Falcon.jpg 1392w" sizes="(-webkit-min-device-pixel-ratio: 2) 1392px, (min-resolution: 192dpi) 1392px, 696px" alt="" title="Pakistan cannot get enough of America's F-16 Fighting Falcon"/&gt;
Photo link: http://falcons.pk/photo/General-Dynamics-F-16A-ADF-Fighting-Falcon/2286

By Sebastien Roblin

During an aerial skirmish on February 27, 2019, an Indian Air Force MiG-21 Bison was shot down by a radar-guided missile. The Pakistani Air Force (PAF) claims the kill was scored by a JF-17 Thunder, a domestically-built fighter built with Chinese assistance.




&lt;img src="https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ID/hqdefault.jpg" alt="" width="480" height="360"&gt;

&lt;iframe title="Pakistan Air Force, Then &amp;amp; Now ready to defend Motherland &amp;#039;&amp;#039;We Are Ready&amp;#039;&amp;#039;" width="696" height="392" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/4VE-9IL0c78?feature=oembed" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen&gt;&lt;/iframe&gt;

However, India subsequently revealed fragments of an AIM-120C-5 missile—a U.S.-built weapon only compatible with the American-built F-16s in PAF service. Pakistan has incentives to deny the use of F-16s, as secret end-user agreements may restrict the aircraft’s use against India—despite that being an obvious application of the venerable fourth-generation jet. India, meanwhile, claims the MiG-21’s pilot managed to shoot down an F-16.

*Air Cover for the Mujahideen*

Pakistan’s F-16s have been no stranger to controversy for nearly four decades. In response to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in 1979, Islamabad and Washington collaborated to train, organize and arm mujahideen resistance fighters in Afghan refugee camps in Pakistan. In retaliation, Afghan and Soviet warplanes began bombing the camps—and the PAF’s Chinese-made J-6 jets proved too slow to catch them.

Thus in 1981, Pakistan convinced the United States to sell it F-16 Fighting Falcon single-engine multi-role fighters—a then cutting-edge yet inexpensive-to-operate design with fly-by-wire controls affording it extraordinary maneuverability. The agile Falcon could attain speeds as high as Mach 2 and lug heavy weapons loads, though it did have a limited combat radius (around 350 miles) and early production models lacked beyond-visual-range missiles.

Between October 1982 and 1986, a total of twenty-eight F-16As and twelve two-seat F-16Bs were delivered to Pakistan via Saudi Arabia in Operations Peace Gate I and II. These outfitted the PAF’s No. 9, 11 and 14 Squadrons which flew patrols along the Afghan border, typically carrying two advanced AIM-9L and two cheaper AIMP-9P-4 Sidewinder heat-seeking missiles.

Unlike earlier heat-seekers which could lock on to the hot tail-pipe at the rear of an aircraft, the AIM-9L “Lima” Sidewinders could engage from any angle. The AIM-9L’s ability to hit opponents in a head-on-pass would soon prove particularly effective.

Between 1986 and 1990, the PAF credited th F-16 with shooting down ten Afghan and Soviet jets, helicopters and transport planes, with many additional claims unconfirmed. Soviet and Afghan records definitively confirm only six losses: four Su-22s supersonic fighter-bombers, one Su-25 “flying tank” piloted by future Russian vice president Alexander Rutskoy, and one An-26 cargo plane.

The PAF lost a single F-16, apparently struck by a missile fired by its own wingman. The F-16 patrols reportedly deterred more extensive bombardment of refugee camps on Pakistani soil, and disrupted Soviet efforts to resupply isolated outposts.

*The Nuclear F-16 Controversy*

By 1990 Pakistan had already placed Peace Gate III and IV orders for seventy-one improved F-16A/B Block 15s. But in October 1990, Pakistan’s nuclear research program led the United States to impose sanctions. Thus, twenty-eight newly-built F-16s for which Pakistan had already paid $23 million apiece were consigned to the desert Boneyard facility in Arizona, where they remained for over a decade.

In the late 1990s, the Clinton administration offered to deliver the jets in return for Pakistan refraining from nuclear tests—but such was not to be. On May 28, 1998 Pakistan detonated five underground nuclear devices in response to an Indian nuclear test. It became evident that the heavy-lifting F-16s would serve as one of Pakistan’s primary nuclear-weapon delivery systems, and intelligence reports indicated that No. 9 and No. 11 squadron F-16s were modified to deliver nuclear gravity bombs on their center pylons.

A year later the two nuclear powers engaged in a limited war when Pakistani commandos infiltrated the mountainous Kargil region of India. As Indian Mirage 2000s pounded the infiltrators while escorted by MiG-29s, F-16s flew combat air patrols along the Pakistani side of the Line of Control reportedly painting the Indian jets with their targeting radars—and vice-versa—in an effort to intimidate.

However, neither air arm was authorized to engage the other, so no air battles occurred. Nonetheless, three years later a PAF F-16B shot down an Indian Searcher II drone that had penetrated deep into Pakistani airspace.

*Pakistan Finally Gets More Falcons*

Following the 9/11 attacks in 2001, the United States intervened against the Taliban—a fundamentalist faction Pakistani intelligence agencies had cultivated to assert Islamabad’s influence in its war-torn neighbor. Seeking to wheedle half-hearted cooperation from Pakistan, in 2006 the Bush administration finally authorized the “Peace Drive” deal (“Peace Gate” having become poisonous brand) in which the United States handed over twenty-three remaining Peace Gate F-16As and Bs, and sold nineteen far more capable F-16Cs and D Block 52s.

The $5.1 billion deal also involved modernizing Pakistan’s by-then dated F-16A and Bs with the F-16AM/BM “Mid-Life Update.” This involved stripping down and repairing the aging air frames, replacing hundreds of wiring harnesses, exchanging old monochrome cockpit displays with color multi-function displays, and installing wide-angle HUDs and a new modular, digital flight computers which added support for laser and GPS-guided bombs.

Furthermore, an improved APG-66V2 doppler radar allowed the F-16AMs to employ beyond-visual-range AIM-120C-5 air-to-air missiles with a maximum range of sixty-five miles. 600 of the radar-guided fire-and-forget missiles were also sold. Pakistan also acquired DB-110 electro-optical reconnaissance pods capable of scanning 10,000 miles of terrain per hour.

As the Taliban forces expanded across Pakistan’s Swat Valley and Waziristan province, the Pakistani military finally counterattacked in 2009. PAF F-16s flew hundreds of combat missions through 2011, first using DB-110 pods to identify camouflaged Taliban positions, then destroying them with laser-guided 500 and 2,000-pound bombs.

Islamabad’s thirst for the agile jets was not yet sated. In 2013, it purchased nine more F-16As and four F-16Bs directly from Jordan.




&lt;img src="https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ID/hqdefault.jpg" alt="" width="480" height="360"&gt;

&lt;iframe title="Pakistan Air Force conducts Night Operational Exercise Hawk-Eye" width="696" height="392" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/EotZyz67lE4?feature=oembed" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen&gt;&lt;/iframe&gt;

Today, Pakistan operates around sixty-six F-16A/Bs and nineteen F-16C/Ds in four active squadrons, including No. 9 Griffins multi-role squadron in Sargodha, the No. 19 Sherdills training and air defense squadron at Thatta, and the No. 11 Arrows multi-role squadron based at Shahbaz near Jacobabad. The last base also hosts No. 5 Falcons multi-role squadron, the only F-16C/D unit.

Besides the F-16A downed by friendly fire, Pakistan has lost six F-16As and two F-16Bs in accidents. In addition to bird strikes, engine failures, and pilot disorientation, one F-16B was consumed by fire after a collision with a wild boar during takeoff caused the nose gear to collapse!

India’s recovery of AIM-120C-5 missile fragments after the air battle on February 27 provides convincing evidence that Pakistani F-16s scored their first kill since 1990. However, India also claims an F-16 was downed by a MiG-21 using an R-73 missile. The PAF denies the claim, though its candor about F-16 involvement is suspect, while Indian media has also circulated demonstrably false “proof of an F-16 loss. The only evidence of an F-16 loss was a Pakistani ground observer who claimed seeing two jets, not one, shot down.

The mere possibility that a Falcon was downed by a 1950s-era MiG-21 should not be over-interpreted. India’s MiG-21 Bisons, though outdated, feature upgraded radars, data-links, self-defense jammers, and agile heat-seeking R-73 missiles targeted with a helmet-mounted sight. The airframe has always had a smallish radar cross-section, is Mach 2 capable, and performed well in exercises against U.S. F-15s and F-16s!




&lt;img src="https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ID/hqdefault.jpg" alt="" width="480" height="360"&gt;

&lt;iframe title="Incredible F-16 aerobatics performance by Pakistan Air Force" width="696" height="392" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/QOpDSvkJSJ4?feature=oembed" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen&gt;&lt;/iframe&gt;

While an F-16 is superior in many respects, particularly situational awareness, an R-73-armed MiG-21 that managed to close within visual range (as ostensibly occurred) would still pose a formidable threat.

In any case, the recent aerial skirmish highlights the important capabilities F-16s continue to provide Pakistan’s military, and the continuing tensions that may evoke as Pakistan aligns itself more with China, and the United States with India. Ironically, just days before the recent skirmish, F-16 manufacturer Lockheed launched a new pitch to move F-16 production to India for a heavily modernized spinoff dubbed the F-21.


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## Talon

Sherdils rolling..

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## fatman17

Project AZM. PAF 5th Gen aircraft design concept. unofficial of course.


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## SD 10

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 610869
> 
> Project AZM. PAF 5th Gen aircraft design concept. unofficial of course.


isnt this fan made?


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## Silicon0000

& If I am not wrong it's also very old

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## fatman17

It says unofficial Bro


SD 10 said:


> isnt this fan made?


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## HRK

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 610869
> 
> Project AZM. PAF 5th Gen aircraft design concept. unofficial of course.


This was designed by one of member this forum so it is just fanmade art

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## Myth_buster_1

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 610869
> 
> Project AZM. PAF 5th Gen aircraft design concept. unofficial of course.



Project AZM ko Pakistani fanboys nay pata nahi kiya sumaja howa hai! It is nothing but PAF variant of J-31.

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## Mrc

As jf 17b3 enters service . Azm shud b worked on in full pace


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## Aliph Ahmed

Myth_buster_1 said:


> Project AZM ko Pakistani fanboys nay pata nahi kiya sumaja howa hai! It is nothing but PAF variant of J-31.



J-31 but with lots of tweaks and PAF specific enhancements.

Pakistan has lots of time. Indian AMCA is just entering the funding requirement phase. Whereas, you already have a flying j-31. Imagine the modifications done to it

By the time, indian AMCA will take its first flight. PAF specific J31 would be entering serial production!!

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## Pakistani Fighter

Aliph Ahmed said:


> J-31 but with lots of tweaks and PAF specific enhancements.
> 
> Pakistan has lots of time. Indian AMCA is just entering the funding requirement phase. Whereas, you already have a flying j-31. Imagine the modifications done to it
> 
> By the time, indian AMCA will take its first flight. PAF specific J31 would be entering serial production!!


Yr But No recent news of J31


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## MIRauf

J-31 is a SAC project, PAF has had much success working with CAC, thus more then likely the Project AZM would be a brainchild conceived with the help of CAC. CAC is excellent with new designs while SAC is known for it's copy projects.

Rumor is that PLAAF J-16 ( SAC's latest baby ) had run into Radar issue which they rejected, you can take this rumor with grain of salt but it is out there. Same stated the reason was poor quality parts, some as sub-par performance.

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## ghazi52

1958 over Karachi







c. 1947: Aerial View 
RPAF base Mauripur Later renamed as PAF Base Masroor in 1967.

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## ghazi52

*Ukraine Air Force commander visits PAF Headquarters*






https://nation.com.pk/NewsSource/web-desk
March 03, 2020

Colonel General Sergii Drozdov, Commander of Air Force of Ukraine called on Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force at Air Headquarters Islamabad. Various matters of mutual interest and professional cooperation came under discussion during the meeting. Colonel General Sergii DROZDOV, appreciated the sound professionalism of PAF personnel. Air Chief highlighted that both the countries enjoy cordial relations and reiterated his resolve to further enhance the existing bilateral cooperation between the two countries.

Earlier, on his arrival at Air Headquarters, a smartly turned out contingent of Pakistan Air Force presented the Guard of Honour. He also laid floral wreath at the Martyrs’ Monument to pay homage to the PAF’s Martyrs.

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## fatman17

Myth_buster_1 said:


> Project AZM ko Pakistani fanboys nay pata nahi kiya sumaja howa hai! It is nothing but PAF variant of J-31.



exactly my point. said it on many occasions.

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## Kabotar

That would be disappointing. J20 would best option or another design from CAC or TFX.


fatman17 said:


> exactly my point. said it on many occasions.


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## LKJ86

MIRauf said:


> Rumor is that PLAAF J-16 ( SAC's latest baby ) had run into Radar issue which they rejected, you can take this rumor with grain of salt but it is out there. Same stated the reason was poor quality parts, some as sub-par performance.


There is nothing wrong with J-16's radar.
Besides, SAC and CAC don't build radars.


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## Maxpane

j 31 does not have side weapon bay and i think Horus was saying in an other thread that paf wants a platform which have side bays


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## LKJ86

Maxpane said:


> j 31 does not have side weapon bay and i think Horus was saying in an other thread that paf wants a platform which have side bays


If need side weapon bays, you should consider heavyweight fighters.


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## Maxpane

LKJ86 said:


> If need side weapon bays, you should consider heavyweight fighters.


may be . horus was saying that . and messuach maam has also shared her view that tbe team who worked on plaaf bomber and jf 17 also started work on project azm which means may be j 31 is not an option


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## LKJ86

Maxpane said:


> may be . horus was saying that . and messuach maam has also shared her view that tbe team who worked on plaaf bomber and jf 17 also started work on project azm which means may be j 31 is not an option


In fact, FC-31 is not another "JF-17" from the beginning.

SAC just takes it as a replacement for J-10 and J-15.


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## fatman17

And Shaheen Foundation/Pak Air Force is working with @NigAirForce to return the C-130H fleet back into service. Two done so far. NAF technicians are being trained to carry out a lot of the work themselves.

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## fatman17

The @NigAirForce Commander, AM Sadique Abubakar recently revealed to me the #JF-17s will be housed at Makurdi Air Base or at Bauchi currently being modernised. I guess later will be used for anti Boko Haram terrorist (BHT) ops in north east. The jets will be delivered in Nov.

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## Maxpane

LKJ86 said:


> In fact, FC-31 is not another "JF-17" from the beginning.
> 
> SAC just takes it as a replacement for J-10 and J-15.


no no am talking about the team which played a very vital role in the development of jf 17 is also working on project azm


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## fatman17

The head of the Nigerian Air Force




, Air Marshal Sadiq Abubakar, has revealed that three JF-17s, which the country ordered, will arrive home in November this year. He made the disclosure during the Passing Out Parade of the Basic Military Training Course 40 on February 15. In March 2019, Pakistan’s Economic Coordination Committee (ECC) announced that it had approved the sale of three JF-17s to Nigeria under a $184 million US contract. It is likely that the NAF will follow-up this contract with a follow-on order to fully replace its legacy F-7Ni and FT-7Ni fighters. Through the JF-17, Nigeria possesses one of Sub-Sahara Africa’s most well-equipped fighters.

*JF-17 Block III Fierce Dragon/Thunder*



The first *JF-17* Block III prototype (#3000) just returned to the CAC airfield from its maiden flight on December 15, 2019. As the latest variant of *JF-17*, Block III carries PAF's ambition to counter IAF's most powerful 3.5th generation fighter Rafale. The aircraft is expected to feature a more powerful engine (WS-13E? 9,000kg class), a new AESA radar developed by NETRI/14th Institute (KLJ-7A, range 170km, track 15, engage 4) or by the 607 Institute (LKF601E, air cooled), HMDS, IRST, upgraded EW suite, new datalink, full authority digital FBW and a variety of air-to-air and air-to-ground guided weapons including PL-10E IIR guided AAM as well as PL-15E active radar homing AAM (using twin launch rails). Additional hard points are installed including ones underneath the engine air intake for ECM or targeting pod. Images of the first flight indicated the *JF-17* Block III prototype features a *J-20* style narrow frame wide-angle holographic HUD (EHUD-2?), a slightly enlarged spine, and new forward MAWS sensors behind the engine air intakes. The rear MAWS sensors were relocated to the EW compartment on top of the vertical tail fin as well. Otherwise the overall aerodynamic configuration remains the unchanged and the aircraft is still powered by the original RD-93 engine. The latest report (February 2020) suggested that the KLJ-7A AESA radar has been chosen by PAF.
_- Last Updated 2/8/19_

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## araz

fatman17 said:


> *JF-17 Block III Fierce Dragon/Thunder*
> 
> 
> 
> The first *JF-17* Block III prototype (#3000) just returned to the CAC airfield from its maiden flight on December 15, 2019. As the latest variant of *JF-17*, Block III carries PAF's ambition to counter IAF's most powerful 3.5th generation fighter Rafale. The aircraft is expected to feature a more powerful engine (WS-13E? 9,000kg class), a new AESA radar developed by NETRI/14th Institute (KLJ-7A, range 170km, track 15, engage 4) or by the 607 Institute (LKF601E, air cooled), HMDS, IRST, upgraded EW suite, new datalink, full authority digital FBW and a variety of air-to-air and air-to-ground guided weapons including PL-10E IIR guided AAM as well as PL-15E active radar homing AAM (using twin launch rails). *Additional hard points are installed including ones underneath the engine air intake for ECM or targeting pod.* Images of the first flight indicated the *JF-17* Block III prototype features a *J-20* style narrow frame wide-angle holographic HUD (EHUD-2?), a slightly enlarged spine, and new forward MAWS sensors behind the engine air intakes. The rear MAWS sensors were relocated to the EW compartment on top of the vertical tail fin as well. Otherwise the overall aerodynamic configuration remains the unchanged and the aircraft is still powered by the original RD-93 engine. The latest report (February 2020) suggested that the KLJ-7A AESA radar has been chosen by PAF.
> _- Last Updated 2/8/19_
> 
> View attachment 611021
> 
> View attachment 611022
> 
> View attachment 611023


The highlighted bits are of interest to me. So in essence we are talking about 10 HPs including ability to mount a twin rail for AAMs. I think I would not want anything more than that in a light weight fighter. All other additions have already been discussed
A

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## The Eagle

araz said:


> The highlighted bits are of interest to me. So in essence we are talking about 10 HPs including ability to mount a twin rail for AAMs. I think I would not want anything more than that in a light weight fighter. All other additions have already been discussed
> A



In my opinion, there is reason for wing root strengthening and a larger wingspan as compare to Block-II. That will in-fact help to take a bit more payload & so to house more fuel internally. A dual rack pylon and one extra hard point under right side inlet/intake which by rough estimate calculates as 8 on wings, 1 center line & 1 under inlet equaling to 10 in total. A will? there is a way, I say. Now comes the tricky part for max load capacity and then powering the AESA as well that warrants the Power Plant question but that's unclear to me yet whether will be RD-93MA or one of WS (Chinese) series. Just guessing.

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## MIRauf

LKJ86 said:


> There is nothing wrong with J-16's radar.
> Besides, SAC and CAC don't build radars.



I was referring to initial batch, which per rumors had Radar that didn't meet PLAAF requirement ( rejected by PLAAF. ) As I wrote, was rumored, and am not dishing the current radar on J-16 or implying as such, apologizes if it came out that way.


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## fatman17

The Eagle said:


> In my opinion, there is reason for wing root strengthening and a larger wingspan as compare to Block-II. That will in-fact help to take a bit more payload & so to house more fuel internally. A dual rack pylon and one extra hard point under right side inlet/intake which by rough estimate calculates as 8 on wings, 1 center line & 1 under inlet equaling to 10 in total. A will? there is a way, I say. Now comes the tricky part for max load capacity and then powering the AESA as well that warrants the Power Plant question but that's unclear to me yet whether will be RD-93MA or one of WS (Chinese) series. Just guessing.



in my opinion PAF will stick with the RD series as there seems to be no supply issues direct or indirect. HST, im sure a prototype fitted with the Chinese WS type will be tested.

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## The Eagle

fatman17 said:


> in my opinion PAF will stick with the RD series as there seems to be no supply issues direct or indirect. HST, im sure a prototype fitted with the Chinese WS type will be tested.



No doubt about satisfaction with RD by PAF as stated by officials on many accounts including performance & supply. My guess was wild because of alleged need of more power having AESA & payload. In view of supply, depot level maintenance or even a repair/overhaul facility pretty much suggests RD to be continued be it RD-93MA. I don't know if PAF will suddenly switch to WS (Chinese) series for unknown reasons and stops with more RDs. Not to forget that WS hasn't yet reached to the level of maturity, at-least in public domain.

I think we have seen one JF-17 Thunder with possibly WS Engine in past.


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## Pakistani Fighter

fatman17 said:


> three JF-17s to Nigeria under a $184 million US contract


3 jets for that high price?


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## ARMalik

According to the Book *China's Military Modernization: Building for Regional and Global Reach By Richard D. Fisher *up to 500 RD-93 were purchased for JF-17. I assume this would also include spare engines. Hence it is nearly improbable that PAF would switch JF-17 RD engines with an alternate engine. 

https://books.google.com.au/books?i...akistan buys hundreds of rd-93 engine&f=false

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## razgriz19

Support system, training, infrastructure, probably also includes the cost of spares, weapons, etc

Aircraft isn't like buying a car or motorcycle. There's more to it than meets the eyes


Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> 3 jets for that high price?

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## fatman17

The Eagle said:


> No doubt about satisfaction with RD by PAF as stated by officials on many accounts including performance & supply. My guess was wild because of alleged need of more power having AESA & payload. In view of supply, depot level maintenance or even a repair/overhaul facility pretty much suggests RD to be continued be it RD-93MA. I don't know if PAF will suddenly switch to WS (Chinese) series for unknown reasons and stops with more RDs. Not to forget that WS hasn't yet reached to the level of maturity, at-least in public domain.
> 
> I think we have seen one JF-17 Thunder with possibly WS Engine in past.


WS engine would be fitted for export orders as Russia could raise objection for certain countries.

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## jupiter2007

Any news of J-10C coming to Pakistan?


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## GriffinsRule

jupiter2007 said:


> Any news of J-10C coming to Pakistan?


Next year ... for joint exercises Im sure

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## LKJ86

GriffinsRule said:


> Next year ... for joint exercises


This year


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## fatman17

The Somalian Air Force Chief visited Pak AF Commander, ACM Mujahid Anwar Khan today. Looks like #JF-17 was on the agenda, and the #C802A anti-shipping missile, judging from small model. Could be bad news for pirates, smugglers and militants in waters off of Somalia's coast! https://t.co/xnASf6GBIi

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## araz

fatman17 said:


> The Somalian Air Force Chief visited Pak AF Commander, ACM Mujahid Anwar Khan today. Looks like #JF-17 was on the agenda, and the #C802A anti-shipping missile, judging from small model. Could be bad news for pirates, smugglers and militants in waters off of Somalia's coast! https://t.co/xnASf6GBIi
> View attachment 611452


Sir jee .
Would they use a C802 for small pirate boats? Surely there would be smaller calibre weapons that could be used.
A


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## fatman17

They want to be 101% sure of destruction


araz said:


> Sir jee .
> Would they use a C802 for small pirate boats? Surely there would be smaller calibre weapons that could be used.
> A

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## airomerix

araz said:


> Sir jee .
> Would they use a C802 for small pirate boats? Surely there would be smaller calibre weapons that could be used.
> A



These pirates usually have hostages, money, large cache of drugs and weapons that are to be traced back to the origin. Hence such anti ship missiles are never a weapon of choice. Missiles like C802/Harpoon are best fit for military targets such as frigates, submarines, minesweepers. 

Rocket attacks are best suited for anti piracy ops only if things can nasty and pirates return fire with alot of firepower.

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## Windjammer

The C-802 is part of a permanent display, it probably caught Alan's attention now.

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## HRK

fatman17 said:


> The Somalian Air Force Chief visited Pak AF Commander, ACM Mujahid Anwar Khan today. Looks like #JF-17 was on the agenda, and the #C802A anti-shipping missile, judging from small model. Could be bad news for pirates, smugglers and militants in waters off of Somalia's coast! https://t.co/xnASf6GBIi
> View attachment 611452


this is the standard decoration of meeting corner of CAS office you could find same C-802 and JF-17 model in every meeting held with Air Chief in his office

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## Rehan khan 1

ARMalik said:


> According to the Book *China's Military Modernization: Building for Regional and Global Reach By Richard D. Fisher *up to 500 RD-93 were purchased for JF-17. I assume this would also include spare engines. Hence it is nearly improbable that PAF would switch JF-17 RD engines with an alternate engine.
> 
> https://books.google.com.au/books?i...akistan buys hundreds of rd-93 engine&f=false


bought 100 with an option to buy 400 more.


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## Raider 21

Windjammer said:


> The C-802 is part of a permanent display, it probably caught Alan's attention now.


ACM Mujahid and his PSO were at Bahrain a few weeks back. They had come on a visit for something.

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## airomerix

AHQ sent a request to Turkey for Solo Turk for the eve of the 23rd March parade. 

It has been accepted and Solo Turk is coming to Pakistan in a week's time.

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## TheTallGuy

airomerix said:


> AHQ sent a request to Turkey for Solo Turk for the eve of the 23rd March parade.
> 
> It has been accepted and Solo Turk is coming to Pakistan in a week's time.



Great News...Any news on Air Chief Flying 2 x Seat JF17 at start of parade?

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## MastanKhan

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> 3 jets for that high price?



Hi,

It would be a total package for those aircraft---not just the aircraft---.

As for the RD93---.

Why fix something that is not broken---.

It is available

It is operational

It is reliable

No incident reported of engine failures

No report of high maintenance issues

One day we will be surprised at the number of hours put on these engines by the Paf and people will say " whaaat "

It has enough power for the job---thrust to weight ratio is as desired

It has a very quick spool up time ( the most important thing in a fighter aircraft engine )

Techs are well trained on this power plant

RD93 is to air force as the G3 is to the army.

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## mingle

F7 are good start for Somali Air force

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## Tps43

Knuckles said:


> PSO


PSO was at home he was their with Sectary to CAS

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## mingle

Knuckles said:


> ACM Mujahid and his PSO were at Bahrain a few weeks back. They had come on a visit for something.


Bahrain getting blk 72 may be that reason?? May require some man power or IP??


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## Raider 21

Tps43 said:


> PSO was at home he was their with Sectary to CAS


Nope he was there, as he was at my family's place in Bahrain.



mingle said:


> Bahrain getting blk 72 may be that reason?? May require some man power or IP??


Nope. It was other stuff and try to improve relations. Bahrain for now gets exchange programs from UAE and USA to fly with in their Viper squadrons.

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## mingle

Knuckles said:


> Nope he was there, as he was at my family's place in Bahrain.
> 
> 
> Nope. It was other stuff and try to improve relations. Bahrain for now gets exchange programs from UAE and USA to fly with in their Viper squadrons.


What Air Cheif can do for better relationships?? When our expertise not required??? Still kahlifa family regards Pak thanks to them


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## Trailer23

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Yaar wo ghareeb phir akeela itni door say Pakistan aiy ga???


Challo, aap kay khatir ees ko bul-walaytay hain  ...

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## airomerix

mingle said:


> Bahrain getting blk 72 may be that reason?? May require some man power or IP??



It is usually less related to front line fighters especially US made jets. 

I heard exchange pilot training and Mushak's were the major subject. 




TheTallGuy said:


> Great News...Any news on Air Chief Flying 2 x Seat JF17 at start of parade?



No news from my side. It is an interesting thought though.

Will try to find out.

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## fatman17

Another great image of a PAF JF-17 made by Zohaib Malik. 
Noteworthy is the ASELPOD targeting pod and two LGBs. https://t.co/WkCvD5xYMA

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## GriffinsRule

fatman17 said:


> Another great image of a PAF JF-17 made by Zohaib Malik.
> Noteworthy is the ASELPOD targeting pod and two LGBs. https://t.co/WkCvD5xYMA
> View attachment 612151


Very nice. Looking at the size of that pod, wonder if it would be able to fit under the intake pylon.


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## LKJ86

PAF donates 500,000 face masks to AVIC.

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## Raider 21

airomerix said:


> It is usually less related to front line fighters especially US made jets.
> 
> I heard exchange pilot training and Mushak's were the major subject.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No news from my side. It is an interesting thought though.
> 
> Will try to find out.


F-16 IPs were discussed. Bahrain is also starting to send their own pilots to the US for Block 70 conversion soon. Mushaks were discussed before during their visit to PAC Kamra a few years ago. This time discussion was for enhancing Bahrain's training wing.

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## airomerix

Knuckles said:


> F-16 IPs were discussed. Bahrain is also starting to send their own pilots to the US for Block 70 conversion soon. Mushaks were discussed before during their visit to PAC Kamra a few years ago. This time discussion was for enhancing Bahrain's training wing.



It's a milestone then because US denied Turkey PAF IP's back in 2016.

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## Raider 21

airomerix said:


> It's a milestone then because US denied Turkey PAF IP's back in 2016.


We have 2 ex-PAF IPs there. Turkey was a special case, as it involved Block 50+ jets.

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## Zulfiqar

Knuckles said:


> We have 2 ex-PAF IPs there. Turkey was a special case, as it involved Block 50+ jets.



How much different are the Turkish Block 50+ relative to out block 52s apart from engine (IIRC).


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## Raider 21

Zulfiqar said:


> How much different are the Turkish Block 50+ relative to out block 52s apart from engine (IIRC).


The differences may not be much, but if they have various agreements on their contract then those have to be respected and met.


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## Tps43

Knuckles said:


> Nope he was there, as he was at my family's place in Bahrain.


yes u are right , Sectary was with CAS in Srilanka not bahrian


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## Raider 21

Tps43 said:


> yes u are right , Sectary was with CAS in Srilanka not bahrian


Both Air Chief and his PSO were at Bahrain a few months ago


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## Neptune

Zulfiqar said:


> How much different are the Turkish Block 50+ relative to out block 52s apart from engine (IIRC).



Don't know much about PAF vipers but, afaik HVKK F-16s are open for modification by TAI, strictly limited for the integration of national munitions/suites such as SOM family, precision guided ordnance, Peregrine IR and Merlin BVR AA missiles, SPEWS-II ew suite, and a new ew pod under development by Aselsan along with the AESA radar for F-16.

But I think your answer lies in the upgrades offered by the CCIP and how it differs from PAF specific Block 52. I know nothing about it, hence nothing to share . Would be great if TAI and Pakistan worked for AESA radars for PAF vipers as well.

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## Haris Ali2140

Neptune said:


> Don't know much about PAF vipers but, afaik HVKK F-16s are open for modification by TAI, strictly limited for the integration of national munitions/suites such as SOM family, precision guided ordnance, Peregrine IR and Merlin BVR AA missiles, SPEWS-II ew suite, and a new ew pod under development by Aselsan along with the AESA radar for F-16.
> 
> But I think your answer lies in the upgrades offered by the CCIP and how it differs from PAF specific Block 52. I know nothing about it, hence nothing to share . Would be great if TAI and Pakistan worked for AESA radars for PAF vipers as well.


There is a big elephant in the room aka The USA. Who is very likely to stop such a venture.

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## Zulfiqar

Neptune said:


> Don't know much about PAF vipers but, afaik HVKK F-16s are open for modification by TAI, strictly limited for the integration of national munitions/suites such as SOM family, precision guided ordnance, Peregrine IR and Merlin BVR AA missiles, SPEWS-II ew suite, and a new ew pod under development by Aselsan along with the AESA radar for F-16.
> 
> But I think your answer lies in the upgrades offered by the CCIP and how it differs from PAF specific Block 52. I know nothing about it, hence nothing to share . Would be great if TAI and Pakistan worked for AESA radars for PAF vipers as well.



I wish that was possible but considering our contact with the chinese for a significant portion of our fleet, that might not be possible. 

They literally have people in some of our air bases for end user monitoring of their systems. Saw few jobs on LinkedIn for that role.

However, some of the Turkish weapons may find its way on JF-17 down the line.

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## fatman17

Its first foreign customer is likely to be Pakistani AF, which has been planning its own 4th generation stealth fighter based on *FC-31* since late 2017.













*Pakistan Fifth Generation Fighter Programme*
India’s long-time foe, Pakistan is now working on a fifth generation fighter programme, known as Azm.

In November 2018, the PAF Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan told the author that it was part of his plans to build a broader and longer vision, he referred to as ‘Building a Next Generation PAF – 2047’, the significance of 2047 is that the PAF will be 100 years old.

“We have been working on a fifth generation fighter for almost a year now and it is likely to take several years before it is flying. It is an indigenous concept at this time – we are self-reliant and not dependent on Western or Eastern partners.” Although he didn’t exclude the possibility that China could get involved.

He continued: “It will be collaborated with private industry and our own academia. We are setting up our own aviation hub and now formulating our vision which will cover manufacturing facilities and laboratories. We have recently opened up a new university too, albeit in a make-shift location and we will link all of this to developing our own fifth/sixth generation fighter and commercial aircraft”.

_by Alan Warnes_

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## fatman17

Analysts point to the FC-1 Xiaolong /JF-17 Thunder project, which was jointly developed by AVIC’s Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation (CAC) subsidiary and the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) and subsidised by Pakistani funds. The collaboration was reasonably successful, with the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) procuring Block I and II single-seat JF-17 and two-seat JF-17Bs, while securing exports to Nigeria and Myanmar. Azerbaijan and Iran have also expressed strong interest in the type.

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## Yasser76

*US defence secretary likely to visit Pakistan later this month*
*https://tribune.com.pk/story/2172767/1-us-defence-secretary-likely-visit-pakistan-later-month/*

"In addition Afghanistan, the visit of the US defense secretary would provide opportunity to both the sides to discuss security cooperation."


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## Neptune

@fatman17 you said something abut PAF PIs for Turkey. Did the US finally allow it? If yes, that would be a huge help for us given the shortage of instructors within our ranks.


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## fatman17

US has so far not given any NOC for 
Engines for T129 
Turkey to hire Pakistan instructors for their F16 training programme. 
Maybe these issues are now discussed during visit of SecDef to Pakistan


Neptune said:


> @fatman17 you said something abut PAF PIs for Turkey. Did the US finally allow it? If yes, that would be a huge help for us given the shortage of instructors within our ranks.

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## The Eagle

fatman17 said:


> US has so far not given any NOC for
> Engines for T129
> Turkey to hire Pakistan instructors for their F16 training programme.
> Maybe these issues are now discussed during visit of SecDef to Pakistan



I can guess that PAF's Operation Swift Retort has changed the prospective about us hence, I can see our IPs for Bahrain, Turkey or one another.

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## Neptune

The Eagle said:


> I can guess that PAF's Operation Swift Retort has changed the prospective about us hence, I can see our IPs for Bahrain, Turkey or one another.



Outsider perspective: i think regardless of the op, imo Pakistan has a military/political reputation on two main things - ISI and combat pilot training.

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## Shah_Deu

Neptune said:


> Outsider perspective: i think regardless of the op, imo Pakistan has a military/political reputation on two main things - ISI and combat pilot training.


I would add SSG to it.

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## The Eagle

With regrets to inform that...


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237641577222332416

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## LKJ86

The Eagle said:


> With regrets to inform that...
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237641577222332416


RIP

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## Maxpane

The Eagle said:


> With regrets to inform that...
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237641577222332416


RIP

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## Ahmet Pasha

Innalillah wa inna alayhi rajioon.

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## fatman17

*Pakistani F-16 crashes during military parade rehearsal*

March 11, 2020 (by Asif Shamim) - *A Pakistani Air Force F-16 crashed during practice rehearsals for the Pakistan Day military parade over the capital of Islamabad with the loss of the pilot, Wing Commander Noman Akram. *



PAF F-16A block 15 #84707 from the 11th sqn seen performing during the Pakistan's Defence Day airshow. [PAF photo]

The F-16 (#92730) crashed in woods near Shakarparian area of the city. No damage or casualties on the ground have been reported.

"Rescue teams have been dispatched to the site of the crash," the statement said, adding that "a board of inquiry has been ordered by Air Headquarters to determine the cause of the accident."

Footage on social media showed a large plume of smoke billowing into the sky after the plane plummeted to the ground, having apparently attempted a loop.

Pakistan’s Air Force said that it would investigate the cause of the crash and that it was too early to determine whether it was the result of a technical failure or a bird strike. The jet was performing a standard manoeuvre at a low altitude before it crashed, officials said.

USNavy F-16A block 15 #90-0943 still wearing the two-tone camouflage of its original customer (Pakistan). [Photo by Steve]


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## fatman17

RIP BRAVE WARRIOR

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## airomerix

Chaklala;

No. 52 Squadron has been raised at Chaklala to house CN-235s. The directorate of air transport has separated CASA's from No. 6 squadron due to operational reasons and in lieu of expansion plans.

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## khanasifm

airomerix said:


> Chaklala;
> 
> No. 52 Squadron has been raised at Chaklala to house CN-235s. The directorate of air transport has separated CASA's from No. 6 squadron due to operational reasons and in lieu of expansion plans.




4 aircraft so does this mean may be adding additional casa to get it to full strength of about 8-10?

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## mingle

khanasifm said:


> 4 aircraft so does this mean may be adding additional casa to get it to full strength of about 8-10?


Jordan has two of them for sale


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## airomerix

khanasifm said:


> 4 aircraft so does this mean may be adding additional casa to get it to full strength of about 8-10?



Additional CASA's are in the design. I'm not aware of any orders that have been placed,

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## GriffinsRule

airomerix said:


> Additional CASA's are in the design. I'm not aware of any orders that have been placed,


Great news finally. Long been a promoter of PAF acquiring additional CN-235s or 295s to augment the Hercs


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## Adam_Khan

airomerix said:


> Chaklala;
> 
> No. 52 Squadron has been raised at Chaklala to house CN-235s. The directorate of air transport has separated CASA's from No. 6 squadron due to operational reasons and in lieu of expansion plans.



Care to elaborate a bit about the expansion plans?


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## mingle

Adam_Khan said:


> Care to elaborate a bit about the expansion plans?


If PAF wise two Casa are on sale by Jordan and look for used one can get from other source but last one we bought from Indonesia


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## Nomad40

mingle said:


> If PAF wise two Casa are on sale by Jordan and look for used one can get from other source but last one we bought from Indonesia


Bro what are you saying?


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## Ultima Thule

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> Bro what are you saying?


F-16


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## mingle

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> Bro what are you saying?


About C235


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## Nomad40

seven0seven said:


> F-16


Yes I fly F-16



mingle said:


> About C235


What about It


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## Ultima Thule

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> Yes I fly F-16


are you fighter pilot or PAF pilots??? then why you're doing in Canada???


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## Nomad40

seven0seven said:


> are you fighter pilot or PAF pilots??? then why you're doing in Canada???


I wish I was in the PAF but Unfortunately I had to move with my family when I was In my Teens.

If given the opportunity I can guarantee you will hear my name as the top pilots of the PAF

Went To Royal Canadian Air Force as A civil for ( But was removed Because of GPA requirement not met for one course ) was to be Merged in about a Year to the Air-force, Flew some
*Continuing Education Officer Training Plan (CEOTP) – Pilot*

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## Ultima Thule

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> I wish I was in the PAF but Unfortunately I had to move with my family when I was In my Teens.
> 
> If given the opportunity I can guarantee you will hear my name as the top pilots of the PAF
> 
> Went To Royal Canadian Air Force as A civil for ( But was removed Because of GPA requirement not met for one course ) was to be Merged in about a Year to the Air-force, Flew some
> *Continuing Education Officer Training Plan (CEOTP) – Pilot*


 good to know bro, which jet do you flew, CF-18??


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## mingle

seven0seven said:


> are you fighter pilot or PAF pilots??? then why you're doing in Canada???


He flies at HWY401



Mirage Battle Commander said:


> Yes I fly F-16
> 
> 
> What about It


Guy was talking about PAF procurement C235 Jordan got few for sale

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## Ultima Thule

mingle said:


> HWY401


what is this please explain????


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## Nomad40

seven0seven said:


> good to know bro, which jet do you flew, CF-18??


NO NO NO NO NOOOO

I was 6 months Into the 4 year program and here is what I studied 

Electronics (RCAF)
Aircraft avionics (RCAF)
Professional Pilot Communication (CIVIL)
Advanced Calculus (RCAF)
Mechanics(RCAF)
Aeronautics (RCAF)/(CIVIL)
Computer Enabled Problem solving (CIVIL)
Pilot Ground school (RCAF) 

also a shitload of Department of National Defense and transport Canada Exams

a-lot of independent study 

Bro the Canadian system is Messed up I was still in the educational Phase and did the Basic Flying Training and on the side flew Cessna 172s and Bonanza G36


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## mingle

seven0seven said:


> what is this please explain????


Ha ha he knows what I am talking about if he lives Canada?? It's highway

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## Nomad40

mingle said:


> He flies at HWY401
> 
> 
> Guy was talking about PAF procurement C235 Jordan got few for sale


BRO I FLY THE HIGHWAY 401 and Barrel-rolls on the Gardener expressway EVERY DAY and PULL LOOPS OVER LAKE ONTARIO



mingle said:


> Ha ha he knows what I am talking about if he lives Canada?? It's highway


Tell him about Poutine coffie chills and timbits

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## mingle

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> BRO I FLY THE HIGHWAY 401 and Barrel-rolls on the Gardener expressway EVERY DAY and PULL LOOPS OVER LAKE ONTARIO
> 
> 
> Tell him about Poutine coffie chills and timbits


Ha ha I am old now no Timbits just black no sugar


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## Nomad40

mingle said:


> Ha ha I am old now no Timbits just black no sugar


Im 20 so yeah I do-not care 

you live in Toronto?

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## Ultima Thule

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> NO NO NO NO NOOOO
> 
> I was 6 months Into the 4 year program and here is what I studied
> 
> Electronics (RCAF)
> Aircraft avionics (RCAF)
> Professional Pilot Communication (CIVIL)
> Advanced Calculus (RCAF)
> Mechanics(RCAF)
> Aeronautics (RCAF)/(CIVIL)
> Computer Enabled Problem solving (CIVIL)
> Pilot Ground school (RCAF)
> 
> also a shitload of Department of National Defense and transport Canada Exams
> 
> a-lot of independent study
> 
> Bro the Canadian system is Messed up I was still in the educational Phase and did the Basic Flying Training and on the side flew Cessna 172s and Bonanza G36


good going bro, May Allah help you to achieve your goals

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## Nomad40

seven0seven said:


> good going bro, May Allah help you to achieve your goals


Yeah lets hope so, I was rusticated from the program Lets see what happens after I finish my major at uni

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## Ultima Thule

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> Tell him about Poutine coffie chills and timbits


I don't know much about Canada but my elder sister lives in London adjacent to Toronto (2 hours drive from Toronto) last year we went to London to meet her



Mirage Battle Commander said:


> Yeah lets hope so, I was rusticated from the program Lets see what happens after I finish my major at uni


I have a plan to study Aeronautics/Aerodynamics from John Hopkins University or Maryland Uni


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## Nomad40

seven0seven said:


> I don't know much about Canada but my elder sister lives in London adjacent to Toronto (2 hours drive from Toronto) last year we went to London to meet her
> 
> 
> I have a plan to study Aeronautics/Aerodynamics from John Hopkins University or Maryland Uni


how old are you ?


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## Ultima Thule

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> how old are you ?


42


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## Nomad40

seven0seven said:


> 42


why study aerospace now?





what am I doing Wrong Guys? will I die if I do what I am Doing in this Picture

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## Ultima Thule

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> why study aerospace now?


its my Childhood dream

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## Nomad40

seven0seven said:


> its my Childhood dream


I wish the best of luck to you 

Aerospace is One of the most hardest and the most interesting subjects to study 
do you have any questions for me about aero?

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## Armchair

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> I wish the best of luck to you
> 
> Aerospace is One of the most hardest and the most interesting subjects to study
> do you have any questions for me about aero?



I have a question. If you wish to put a piston engine with a jet engine on an aircraft, do you keep the same propeller or does the pitch and length of the propeller change for optimization? 

Also, I've always felt that above 500 km/h a 3-4 blade propeller will perform better than a two blade prop. What do you think and why?

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## Talon

Commissioned painting depicting an IAF Rafale got intercepted by PAF F-16 block 52 over Northern punjab, Pakistan. They both had evaded BVR locks and got visual on each other. 
Aviation Art By Rehan Siraj

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## ghazi52



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## fatman17

A great comparison of a PAF JF-17 Block 2 vs the Block 3 prototype.

(Image via Dazzler/PDF) https://t.co/fQL7Dcz0rS

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## LKJ86

fatman17 said:


> Block 2


?


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## Talon

fatman17 said:


> A great comparison of a PAF JF-17 Block 2 vs the Block 3 prototype.
> 
> (Image via Dazzler/PDF) https://t.co/fQL7Dcz0rS
> View attachment 614262


Isn't this block 1?


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## fatman17

Hodor said:


> Isn't this block 1?



better ask @Dazzler but you are right


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## Armchair

Just curious why JF-17s don't use more carbon composites. Building airplanes out of aluminum to many US aeronautical engineers is considered outdated and illogical. I am sure PAF has its reasons for keeping really old school. Burt Rutan would be exasperated.

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## FuturePAF

Armchair said:


> Just curious why JF-17s don't use more carbon composites. Building airplanes out of aluminum to many US aeronautical engineers is considered outdated and illogical. I am sure PAF has its reasons for keeping really old school. Burt Rutan would be exasperated.



Cost


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## fatman17

*Viper Driver Flying Hours*
*

 Gr.Capt. Aamir Masood *

*Viper Driver*




Name * Gr.Capt. Aamir Masood *
Country 

Unit  * 9th squadron "Griffins" * 
Flying F-16s
Viper Hours *3000*
2006: Commanding Officer of 9 sqn. 

1st PAF pilot to 3,000 hrs flying the F16. probably retired now?

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## Windjammer

fatman17 said:


> *Viper Driver Flying Hours*
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *​* Gr.Capt. Aamir Masood *
> 
> *Viper Driver*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Name * Gr.Capt. Aamir Masood *
> Country
> 
> 
> Unit  * 9th squadron "Griffins" *
> Flying F-16s
> Viper Hours *3000*
> 2006: Commanding Officer of 9 sqn.
> 
> 1st PAF pilot to 3,000 hrs flying the F16. probably retired now?
> 
> View attachment 614289
> 
> View attachment 614290
> 
> View attachment 614291
> 
> View attachment 614292


You are posting over a year old information....after that he became Sargodha base commander and is now AVM.

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## fatman17

Windjammer said:


> You are posting over a year old information....after that he became Sargodha base commander and is now AVM.



thanks for the update

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## Adam_Khan

fatman17 said:


> *Viper Driver Flying Hours*
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *​* Gr.Capt. Aamir Masood *
> 
> *Viper Driver*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Name * Gr.Capt. Aamir Masood *
> Country
> 
> 
> Unit  * 9th squadron "Griffins" *
> Flying F-16s
> Viper Hours *3000*
> 2006: Commanding Officer of 9 sqn.
> 
> 1st PAF pilot to 3,000 hrs flying the F16. probably retired now?
> 
> View attachment 614289
> 
> View attachment 614290
> 
> View attachment 614291
> 
> View attachment 614292



He is an AVM now and presently serving as DCAS training. 


fatman17 said:


> *Viper Driver Flying Hours*
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *​* Gr.Capt. Aamir Masood *
> 
> *Viper Driver*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Name * Gr.Capt. Aamir Masood *
> Country
> 
> 
> Unit  * 9th squadron "Griffins" *
> Flying F-16s
> Viper Hours *3000*
> 2006: Commanding Officer of 9 sqn.
> 
> 1st PAF pilot to 3,000 hrs flying the F16. probably retired now?
> 
> View attachment 614289
> 
> View attachment 614290
> 
> View attachment 614291
> 
> View attachment 614292

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## Keysersoze

Armchair said:


> I have a question. If you wish to put a piston engine with a jet engine on an aircraft, do you keep the same propeller or does the pitch and length of the propeller change for optimization?
> 
> Also, I've always felt that above 500 km/h a 3-4 blade propeller will perform better than a two blade prop. What do you think and why?


Have a look at the B-36D it had both engine types

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## Nomad40

Armchair said:


> I have a question. If you wish to put a piston engine with a jet engine on an aircraft, do you keep the same propeller or does the pitch and length of the propeller change for optimization?
> 
> Also, I've always felt that above 500 km/h a 3-4 blade propeller will perform better than a two blade prop. What do you think and why?



do you mean replacing a piston with a turbo prop? or having a combination of turbo and piston (never thought about that) The prop really depends on what you will use it for lets say you have a a 3 blade prop than that means that it will be pushing and displacing 3 smaller pulses of air at super sonic speed that is the reason why 3 blade props are used for to get the max speed out of the plane.

4 blade props would provide you with max power and thrust characteristics at lower speeds so you will be able to lift more a lot quicker but it will have a higher drag coefficient and will be less efficient

yes at higher speeds those performances of a 3-4 blade props will be significantly better than a 2 blade but then it also depends on what type of air craft you are flying because the slip will be a big factor. lets say you put a 4 blade MT Prop on a cessna 172 than you will have to use a lot of rudder trim to keep the darn thing flying straight.

Idk which plane you are flying at 500km/h with a 3-4 blade prop I know barons can do 470kmh with a nice tail wind so maybe you are talking about high-performance turbo props or bigger than GA. 

but if you choose to fly at higher speed than probably you will utilize a variable pitch prop as they are much more easier and extensively used to keep the speed of the air craft at a constant selected speed.

Pitch is basically the distance of the prop (chord-line) that travels forward from AOI for every 1 rotation of the propeller.

to give you a little better answer I need more information. I was un-able to answer the first question because I am not clear about it but i can say this, Engines changes are tricky. you dont want to upgrade to an over powered heavier engine and always refer to the manufacturer guide if the guide says 90hp min to 120hp max than stick in that ball park dont put a 160-hp Engine as the mounts will not be able to handle it and the characteristics will alter drastically you will die.



Armchair said:


> I have a question. If you wish to put a piston engine with a jet engine on an aircraft, do you keep the same propeller or does the pitch and length of the propeller change for optimization?
> 
> Also, I've always felt that above 500 km/h a 3-4 blade propeller will perform better than a two blade prop. What do you think and why?


never seen a 2 blade go far beyond 300 km/h indicated and or actual WHAT IS THIS 2 BLADE YOU FLY I WANT TO BUY MUCH LESSER FUEL COSTS

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## MastanKhan

Armchair said:


> Just curious why JF-17s don't use more carbon composites. Building airplanes out of aluminum to many US aeronautical engineers is considered outdated and illogical. I am sure PAF has its reasons for keeping really old school. Burt Rutan would be exasperated.



It is maintenance extensive---and expensive as well.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Armchair said:


> Just curious why JF-17s don't use more carbon composites. Building airplanes out of aluminum to many US aeronautical engineers is considered outdated and illogical. I am sure PAF has its reasons for keeping really old school. Burt Rutan would be exasperated.


As @FuturePAF noted, it's almost certainly cost.

It was also a design decision back in the early 1990s, and back then, the things we take for granted today weren't assured. It didn't just eschew composites, but also relaxed stability, fully fly-by-wire, etc as well. Each of these things were either out-of-reach or experimental-stage in China when the JF-17 was on the drawing board. 

Sure, it sounds odd and all, but the JF-17 was and still is meant to supplant the F-7P/PG and Mirages, so an exponential leap wasn't needed from that standpoint. It was also meant to work with the F-16 (and Mirage 2000/-5, when all that was a thing in the 1990s and early 2000s).

But with Project Azm, the PAF opted for high-performance (and high-risk) capabilities in the design requirements. In this case, the goal is to evidently to replace the F-16s, and to form up much needed capabilities (greater range, payload, etc for maritime as well as deep-strike and offensive operations).

That said, it would be interesting if the PAF puts some development money aside for continued JF-17 development in China (in parallel to Pr. Azm). The team at Chengdu can re-open the JF-17's design and introduce composites, relaxed stability, a new engine, etc. Offer us a low-cost way to replace the JF-17 Block-I, II and III (while the FGFA/NGF supplants the F-16s).

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## Armchair

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> As @FuturePAF noted, it's almost certainly cost.
> 
> It was also a design decision back in the early 1990s, and back then, the things we take for granted today weren't assured. It didn't just eschew composites, but also relaxed stability, fully fly-by-wire, etc as well. Each of these things were either out-of-reach or experimental-stage in China when the JF-17 was on the drawing board.
> 
> Sure, it sounds odd and all, but the JF-17 was and still is meant to supplant the F-7P/PG and Mirages, so an exponential leap wasn't needed from that standpoint. It was also meant to work with the F-16 (and Mirage 2000/-5, when all that was a thing in the 1990s and early 2000s).
> 
> But with Project Azm, the PAF opted for high-performance (and high-risk) capabilities in the design requirements. In this case, the goal is to evidently to replace the F-16s, and to form up much needed capabilities (greater range, payload, etc for maritime as well as deep-strike and offensive operations).
> 
> That said, it would be interesting if the PAF puts some development money aside for continued JF-17 development in China (in parallel to Pr. Azm). The team at Chengdu can re-open the JF-17's design and introduce composites, relaxed stability, a new engine, etc. Offer us a low-cost way to replace the JF-17 Block-I, II and III (while the FGFA/NGF supplants the F-16s).




If I had to guess, the Block 3 has relaxed stability, an auxiliary power unit, more composite use (still not enough IMHO), greater range payload and TWR.

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## MastanKhan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> As @FuturePAF noted, it's almost certainly cost.
> 
> It was also a design decision back in the early 1990s, and back then, the things we take for granted today weren't assured. It didn't just eschew composites, but also relaxed stability, fully fly-by-wire, etc as well. Each of these things were either out-of-reach or experimental-stage in China when the JF-17 was on the drawing board.
> 
> Sure, it sounds odd and all, but the JF-17 was and still is meant to supplant the F-7P/PG and Mirages, so an exponential leap wasn't needed from that standpoint. It was also meant to work with the F-16 (and Mirage 2000/-5, when all that was a thing in the 1990s and early 2000s).
> 
> But with Project Azm, the PAF opted for high-performance (and high-risk) capabilities in the design requirements. In this case, the goal is to evidently to replace the F-16s, and to form up much needed capabilities (greater range, payload, etc for maritime as well as deep-strike and offensive operations).
> 
> That said, it would be interesting if the PAF puts some development money aside for continued JF-17 development in China (in parallel to Pr. Azm). The team at Chengdu can re-open the JF-17's design and introduce composites, relaxed stability, a new engine, etc. Offer us a low-cost way to replace the JF-17 Block-I, II and III (while the FGFA/NGF supplants the F-16s).



Hi,

Main issues with them are they are maintenance extensive---. Cracks are not easily visible---.

"

*Composites* have high recurring costs.
*Composites* are higher non recurring costs.
*Composites* have higher *material* costs.
*Composites* have very expensive repairs and maintenance.
*Composites* needed isolation to prevent adjacent aluminium part galvanic corrosion "

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## Armchair

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Main issues with them are they are maintenance extensive---. Cracks are not easily visible---.
> 
> "
> 
> *Composites* have high recurring costs.
> *Composites* are higher non recurring costs.
> *Composites* have higher *material* costs.
> *Composites* have very expensive repairs and maintenance.
> *Composites* needed isolation to prevent adjacent aluminium part galvanic corrosion "




I think the costs are over played. You simply need carbon composite sheets (flexible like curtain),resin and autoclave. You can then cast any part you want. It's that simple. You can see kids doing it in their garage on youtube. Sometimes people with book knowledge make simple things sound like reaching the moon.


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## MastanKhan

Armchair said:


> I think the costs are over played. You simply need carbon composite sheets (flexible like curtain),resin and autoclave. You can then cast any part you want. It's that simple. You can see kids doing it in their garage on youtube. Sometimes people with book knowledge make simple things sound like reaching the moon.



Puttar Ji,

Those are fiber glass---and not carbon fibre---hehehehehe.

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## Armchair

MastanKhan said:


> Puttar Ji,
> 
> Those are fiber glass---and not carbon fibre---hehehehehe.



Okay if you say so MK : )

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## fatman17

It was reported in September 2016 that Nigerian AF has decided to acquire *JF-17*. The initial batch of 3 *JF-17N* is expected to be delivered in November 2020. The first aircraft (2P-60?) was speculated to have been built by early 2020.

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## Dazzler

fatman17 said:


> It was reported in September 2016 that Nigerian AF has decided to acquire *JF-17*. The initial batch of 3 *JF-17N* is expected to be delivered in November 2020. The first aircraft (2P-60?) was speculated to have been built by early 2020.
> View attachment 614480



Perhaps all for Nigeria? 60-62

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## Haris Ali2140

Dazzler said:


> Perhaps all for Nigeria? 60-62
> 
> View attachment 614493
> 
> 
> View attachment 614486
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 614487


What are these green patches???


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## razgriz19

Why would they put apu intake up on the tail when it sits near the landing bay?
Isn't the exhaust for apu right in the middle of the landing gear, behind the gun?



That's probably a ram air inlet for oil or avionics cooling


fatman17 said:


> A great comparison of a PAF JF-17 Block 2 vs the Block 3 prototype.
> 
> (Image via Dazzler/PDF) https://t.co/fQL7Dcz0rS
> View attachment 614262

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## Dazzler

Haris Ali2140 said:


> What are these green patches???



Composites


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## Haris Ali2140

Dazzler said:


> Composites


Whats the percentage of composites in BLK-2 & BLK-3???


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## razgriz19

Try repair a knick or a small dent in composite. See where that takes you vs. an aluminum sheet


Armchair said:


> I think the costs are over played. You simply need carbon composite sheets (flexible like curtain),resin and autoclave. You can then cast any part you want. It's that simple. You can see kids doing it in their garage on youtube. Sometimes people with book knowledge make simple things sound like reaching the moon.


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## Dazzler

Hodor said:


> Isn't this block 1?



No "visible" differences between blk 1 and 2.



Haris Ali2140 said:


> Whats the percentage of composites in BLK-2 & BLK-3???



More than 20%..

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## Talon

Dazzler said:


> No "visible" differences between blk 1 and 2.
> 
> 
> 
> More than 20%..


The serial of the said aircraft indicates it to be blk 1..no?

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## Keysersoze

fatman17 said:


> A great comparison of a PAF JF-17 Block 2 vs the Block 3 prototype.
> 
> (Image via Dazzler/PDF) https://t.co/fQL7Dcz0rS
> View attachment 614262


Its interesting that the vertical stabiliser does not have composite like the JF17B.

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## Dazzler

Hodor said:


> The serial of the said aircraft indicates it to be blk 1..no?



@Deino tagged it as blk 2. Take your dig to him.

Original post..

JF-17 Block-3 -- Updates, News & Discussion

Deino's tweet


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1238739888025014273


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## Adam_Khan

Dazzler said:


> @Deino tagged it as blk 2. Take your dig to him.
> 
> Original post..
> 
> JF-17 Block-3 -- Updates, News & Discussion
> 
> Deino's tweet
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1238739888025014273



Don't think there are any external changes between block 1 and 2 other than the refuelling probe.

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## Deino

Dazzler said:


> @Deino tagged it as blk 2. Take your dig to him.
> 
> Original post..
> 
> JF-17 Block-3 -- Updates, News & Discussion
> 
> Deino's tweet
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1238739888025014273




I know, but weren't all Block 1 already upgraded to Block 2?

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Deino said:


> know, but weren't all Block 1 already upgraded to Block 2?


@airomerix told that differences have been minimized

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## StormBreaker

Don’t know about you guys, but these two pics, I highlighted the real apparent differences (and angle of pic and distance of image doesn’t matter here as this is very much detailed difference),

First of all, Saw tooth edge of Block 3 is sharper than Block 1, more extended (to strengthen the wing and to reduce flight trail and drag while turns, wasn’t that done from Block 2 onwards btw ?).

Secondly, as shown below in the pic i edited, The part above wing joints, which is attached to the intake, Intake body above the wing joint, is a bit lengthier than before and the wing seems to be brought down but it isn’t, rather the intake has been widened overall vertically (referring to widening of intakes.







Lastly, the opening of intakes confirms my second point as pointed out in the image below. The bottom part of intake opening which is a bit below the bottom fuselage x line. Block 1 compared, the opening of intake, below part, is parallel to the bottom line of fuselage and doesn’t extend negatively in the y coordinates.






@airomerix @Dazzler @HRK @The Eagle @Deino @Hodor @Trailer23 @Adam_Khan

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## JamD

Armchair said:


> I think the costs are over played. You simply need carbon composite sheets (flexible like curtain),resin and autoclave. You can then cast any part you want. It's that simple. You can see kids doing it in their garage on youtube. Sometimes people with book knowledge make simple things sound like reaching the moon.


I'm going to come off as someone with book knowledge then but hey were all here to learn 

Aircraft are low tolerance structures with small factors of safety. This means there is very little redundancy in terms of structural thicknesses (to put it simply). This means a very very accurate log needs to be kept what kind of forces the aircraft pulls. There are manuals on what to check and reinforce if pilot is has done this. Furthermore at each overhaul major metal parts are x-rayed for cracks. Cracks can grow and lead to failure. They need to be snipped in the bud as they say. You can see all this at MRF and ARF so not just book knowledge I feel. 

Composites have many advantages as you are well aware but here's the problem. More often than not they are not a homogeneous material like metals that you can just xray and look for cracks. I'm not a material guy but I dont think there are non destructive techniques like xray for detecting cracks (fibres breaking and resin cracking). So you can either have:
1. Complicated mathematical models that give you conservative estimates on when to reinforce or replace a part. Of course this needs a lot of experienced researchers and engineers to do that have to be involved from the design phase. It is also wasteful because these are conservative estimates.
2. Instrument the crap out of your composites part. You put sensors in every layer and lots of places to constantly log deflection and anything else. And you use this data to predict possible failure points more accurately and mitigate them. This isn't that wasteful as 1 but requires a more expensive and instrumented part. This also requires a lot of researchers and experts. As an example I saw a wing spar of an experimental aircraft made by NASA which was entirely composite. It was a good 737 size aircraft so the spar is at least 25 ft long. It was instrumented so heavily that there was a bundle of wires coming out the root that was 1 ft in diameter. Yeah. I might have a picture somewhere.

Found it. This is entirely composite and is just the wing spar but needed more instrumentation than a Mushaak.

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## StormBreaker

@Deino why does this pic look like fake due to the cuts on the Vertical stabilizer ? Photoshopped ? Look closely or is it bad resolution ?








JamD said:


> I'm going to come off as someone with book knowledge then but hey were all here to learn
> 
> Aircraft are low tolerance structures with small factors of safety. This means there is very little redundancy in terms of structural thicknesses (to put it simply). This means a very very accurate log needs to be kept what kind of forces the aircraft pulls. There are manuals on what to check and reinforce if pilot is has done this. Furthermore at each overhaul major metal parts are x-rayed for cracks. Cracks can grow and lead to failure. They need to be snipped in the bud as they say. You can see all this at MRF and ARF so not just book knowledge I feel.
> 
> Composites have many advantages as you are well aware but here's the problem. More often than not they are not a homogeneous material like metals that you can just xray and look for cracks. I'm not a material guy but I dont think there are non destructive techniques like xray for detecting cracks (fibres breaking and resin cracking). So you can either have:
> 1. Complicated mathematical models that give you conservative estimates on when to reinforce or replace a part. Of course this needs a lot of experienced researchers and engineers to do that have to be involved from the design phase. It is also wasteful because these are conservative estimates.
> 2. Instrument the crap out of your composites part. You put sensors in every layer and lots of places to constantly log deflection and anything else. And you use this data to predict possible failure points more accurately and mitigate them. This isn't that wasteful as 1 but requires a more expensive and instrumented part. This also requires a lot of researchers and experts. As an example I saw a wing spar of an experimental aircraft made by NASA which was entirely composite. It was a good 737 size aircraft so the spar is at least 25 ft long. It was instrumented so heavily that there was a bundle of wires coming out the root that was 1 ft in diameter. Yeah. I might have a picture somewhere.
> 
> Found it. This is entirely composite and is just the wing spar but needed more instrumentation than a Mushaak.
> View attachment 614667


Composites are indeed very interesting materials. They can be made stiff, tough while keeping low mass


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## Deino

StormBreaker said:


> @Deino why does this pic look like fake due to the cuts on the Vertical stabilizer ? Photoshopped ? Look closely or is it bad resolution ?
> 
> View attachment 614668
> 
> 
> 
> Composites are indeed very interesting materials. They can be made stiff, tough while keeping low mass




Pardon, but I don't see any cuts and the fact that it is blurred is due to being taken from some distance... IMO there is no doubt, that it is real.

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## HRK

Deino said:


> I know, but weren't all Block 1 already upgraded to Block 2?
> 
> Please correct me if I'm wrong.


yup ... in terms of avionics and software blk-I were upgraded to blk-II standards, in terms of airframe there was no difference so yes blk-I are equivalent to bkl-II but these are still identified as blk-I ....



StormBreaker said:


> Don’t know about you guys, but these two pics, I highlighted the real apparent differences (and angle of pic and distance of image doesn’t matter here as this is very much detailed difference),
> 
> First of all, Saw tooth edge of Block 3 is sharper than Block 1, more extended (to strengthen the wing and to reduce flight trail and drag while turns, wasn’t that done from Block 2 onwards btw ?).
> 
> Secondly, as shown below in the pic i edited, The part above wing joints, which is attached to the intake, Intake body above the wing joint, is a bit lengthier than before and the wing seems to be brought down but it isn’t, rather the intake has been widened overall vertically (referring to widening of intakes.
> 
> View attachment 614665
> 
> 
> Lastly, the opening of intakes confirms my second point as pointed out in the image below. The bottom part of intake opening which is a bit below the bottom fuselage x line. Block 1 compared, the opening of intake, below part, is parallel to the bottom line of fuselage and doesn’t extend negatively in the x coordinates.
> 
> View attachment 614666
> 
> 
> @airomerix @Dazzler @HRK @The Eagle @Deino @Hodor @Trailer23 @Adam_Khan


most probably these observations are due to the difference in colour blk-III is in primer coat while blk-I pic is in operational livery

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## StormBreaker

HRK said:


> yup ... in terms of avionics and software blk-I were upgraded to blk-II standards, in terms of airframe there was no difference so yes blk-I are equivalent to bkl-II but these are still identified as blk-I ....
> 
> 
> most probably these observations are due to the difference in colour blk-III is in primer coat while blk-I pic is in operational livery


I tried my best to reduce the possibility you are talking about, but point no 2 is indeed a truth, we can argue over last point to be inaccurate at the moment.

Spine does seem taller as well

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## Armchair

JamD said:


> I'm going to come off as someone with book knowledge then but hey were all here to learn
> 
> Aircraft are low tolerance structures with small factors of safety. This means there is very little redundancy in terms of structural thicknesses (to put it simply). This means a very very accurate log needs to be kept what kind of forces the aircraft pulls. There are manuals on what to check and reinforce if pilot is has done this. Furthermore at each overhaul major metal parts are x-rayed for cracks. Cracks can grow and lead to failure. They need to be snipped in the bud as they say. You can see all this at MRF and ARF so not just book knowledge I feel.
> 
> Composites have many advantages as you are well aware but here's the problem. More often than not they are not a homogeneous material like metals that you can just xray and look for cracks. I'm not a material guy but I dont think there are non destructive techniques like xray for detecting cracks (fibres breaking and resin cracking). So you can either have:
> 1. Complicated mathematical models that give you conservative estimates on when to reinforce or replace a part. Of course this needs a lot of experienced researchers and engineers to do that have to be involved from the design phase. It is also wasteful because these are conservative estimates.
> 2. Instrument the crap out of your composites part. You put sensors in every layer and lots of places to constantly log deflection and anything else. And you use this data to predict possible failure points more accurately and mitigate them. This isn't that wasteful as 1 but requires a more expensive and instrumented part. This also requires a lot of researchers and experts. As an example I saw a wing spar of an experimental aircraft made by NASA which was entirely composite. It was a good 737 size aircraft so the spar is at least 25 ft long. It was instrumented so heavily that there was a bundle of wires coming out the root that was 1 ft in diameter. Yeah. I might have a picture somewhere.
> 
> Found it. This is entirely composite and is just the wing spar but needed more instrumentation than a Mushaak.
> View attachment 614667



Thank you for an educated reply. I'm just passing on the exasperation of US aeronautical engineers when they see a fighter jet made of aluminum alloy. Now, I am not saying go 100% with composites. Particularly when you talk of key structural components of wide bodied airliners. Those are gigantic and highly complex things. We are discussing instead components of a small fighter. Does it make sense to build so much of it from aluminum? It seems for the PAF it does. It seems also that US aeronautical engineers don't share that enthusiasm. Hope I made my point a bit clearer.



razgriz19 said:


> Why would they put apu intake up on the tail when it sits near the landing bay?
> Isn't the exhaust for apu right in the middle of the landing gear, behind the gun?
> 
> 
> 
> That's probably a ram air inlet for oil or avionics cooling


Let's see how it pans out. I think its an auxilary power unit similar to some airliners out there. And the reason for it would be 1) greater power needed for the AESA radar, and 2) space at the tail saves more important real estate.


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## CriticalThought

JamD said:


> I'm going to come off as someone with book knowledge then but hey were all here to learn
> 
> Aircraft are low tolerance structures with small factors of safety. This means there is very little redundancy in terms of structural thicknesses (to put it simply). This means a very very accurate log needs to be kept what kind of forces the aircraft pulls. There are manuals on what to check and reinforce if pilot is has done this. Furthermore at each overhaul major metal parts are x-rayed for cracks. Cracks can grow and lead to failure. They need to be snipped in the bud as they say. You can see all this at MRF and ARF so not just book knowledge I feel.
> 
> Composites have many advantages as you are well aware but here's the problem. More often than not they are not a homogeneous material like metals that you can just xray and look for cracks. I'm not a material guy but I dont think there are non destructive techniques like xray for detecting cracks (fibres breaking and resin cracking). So you can either have:
> 1. Complicated mathematical models that give you conservative estimates on when to reinforce or replace a part. Of course this needs a lot of experienced researchers and engineers to do that have to be involved from the design phase. It is also wasteful because these are conservative estimates.
> 2. Instrument the crap out of your composites part. You put sensors in every layer and lots of places to constantly log deflection and anything else. And you use this data to predict possible failure points more accurately and mitigate them. This isn't that wasteful as 1 but requires a more expensive and instrumented part. This also requires a lot of researchers and experts. As an example I saw a wing spar of an experimental aircraft made by NASA which was entirely composite. It was a good 737 size aircraft so the spar is at least 25 ft long. It was instrumented so heavily that there was a bundle of wires coming out the root that was 1 ft in diameter. Yeah. I might have a picture somewhere.
> 
> Found it. This is entirely composite and is just the wing spar but needed more instrumentation than a Mushaak.
> View attachment 614667



Searching google scholar for 'composites in aerospace' turns up this gem. It validates some of what you say, but it corroborates that composites are heavily used in modern aircraft:

https://ihsmarkit.com/pdf/Composites-Aerospace-Applications-whitepaper_264558110913046532.pdf


> Composites in Aerospace Applications
> By Adam Quilter, Head of Strength Analysis Group, IHS ESDU Introduction
> 
> The unrelenting passion of the aerospace industry to enhance the performance of commercial and military aircraft is constantly driving the development of improved high performance structural materials. Composite materials are one such class of materials that play a significant role in current and future aerospace components. Composite materials are particularly attractive to aviation and aerospace applications because of their exceptional strength and stiffness-to-density ratios and superior physical properties.
> 
> A composite material typically consists of relatively strong, stiff fibres in a tough resin matrix. Wood and bone are natural composite materials: wood consists of cellulose fibres in a lignin matrix and bone consists of hydroxyapatite particles in a collagen matrix. Better known man-made composite materials, used in the aerospace and other industries, are carbon- and glass-fibre-reinforced plastic (CFRP and GFRP respectively) which consist of carbon and glass fibres, both of which are stiff and strong (for their density), but brittle, in a polymer matrix, which is tough but neither particularly stiff nor strong. Very simplistically, by combining materials with complementary properties in this way, a composite material with most or all of the benefits (high strength, stiffness, toughness and low density) is obtained with few or none of the weaknesses of the individual component materials.
> 
> CFRP and GFRP are fibrous composite materials; another category of composite materials is particulate composites. Metal matrix composites (MMC) that are currently being developed and used by the aviation and aerospace industry are examples of particulate composites and consist, usually, of non-metallic particles in a metallic matrix; for instance silicon carbide particles combined with aluminium alloy.
> 
> Probably the single most important difference between fibrous and particulate composites, and indeed between fibrous composites and conventional metallic materials, relates to directionality of properties. Particulate composites and conventional metallic materials are, nominally at least, isotropic, i.e. their properties (strength, stiffness, etc.) are the same in all directions, fibrous composites are anisotropic, i.e. their properties vary depending on the direction of the load with respect to the orientation of the fibres. Imagine a small sheet of balsa wood: it is much easier to bend (and break) it along a line parallel to the fibres than perpendicular to the fibres. This anisotropy is overcome by stacking layers, each often only fractions of a millimetre thick, on top of one another with the fibres oriented at different angles to form a laminate. Except in very special cases, the laminate will still be anisotropic, but the variation in properties with respect to direction will be less extreme. In most aerospace applications, this approach is taken a stage further and the differently-oriented layers (anything from a very few to several hundred in number) are stacked in a specific sequence to tailor the properties of the laminate to withstand best the loads to which it will be subjected. This way, material, and therefore weight, can be saved, which is a factor of prime importance in the aviation and aerospace industry.
> 
> Another advantage of composite materials is that, generally speaking, they can be formed into more complex shapes than their metallic counterparts. This not only reduces the number of parts making up a given component, but also reduces the need for fasteners and joints, the advantages of which are twofold: fasteners and joints may be the weak points of a component — a rivet needs a hole which is a stress concentration and therefore a potential crack-initiation site, and fewer fasteners and joints can mean a shorter assembly time.
> 
> Shorter assembly times, however, need to be offset against the greater time likely to be needed to fabricate the component in the first place. To produce a composite component, the individual layers, which are often preimpregnated (‘pre-preg’) with the resin matrix, are cut to their required shapes, which are all likely to be different to a greater or lesser extent, and then stacked in the specified sequence over a former (the former is a solid or framed structure used to keep the uncured layers in the required shape prior to, and during, the curing process). This assembly is then subjected to a sequence of temperatures and pressures to ‘cure’ the material. The product is then checked thoroughly to ensure both that dimensional tolerances are met and that the curing process has been successful (bubbles or voids in the laminate might have been formed as a result of contamination of the raw materials, for example).
> 
> The Use of Composites in Aircraft Design1
> Among the first uses of modern composite materials was about 40 years ago when boron-reinforced epoxy composite was used for the skins of the empennages of the U.S. F14 and F15 fighters.
> 
> Initially, composite materials were used only in secondary structure, but as knowledge and development of the materials has improved, their use in primary structure such as wings and fuselages has increased. The following table lists some aircraft in which significant amounts of composite materials are used in the airframe. Initially, the percentage by structural weight of composites used in manufacturing was very small, at around two percent in the F15, for example. However, the percentage has grown considerably, through 19 percent in the F18 up to 24 percent in the F22. The image below, from Reference 1, shows the distribution of materials in the F18E/F aircraft. The AV-8B Harrier GR7 has composite wing sections and 2 the GR7A features a composite rear fuselage.
> 
> Composite materials are used extensively in the Eurofighter: the wing skins, forward fuselage, flaperons and rudder all make use of composites. Toughened epoxy skins constitute about 75 percent of the exterior area. In total, about 40 percent of the structural weight of the Eurofighter is carbon-fibre reinforced composite material. Other European fighters typically feature between about 20 and 25 percent composites by weight: 26 percent for Dassault’s Rafael and 20 to 25 percent for the Saab Gripen and the EADS Mako.
> 
> The B2 stealth bomber is an interesting case. The requirement for stealth means that radar-absorbing material must be added to the exterior of the aircraft with a concomitant weight penalty. Composite materials are therefore used in the primary structure to offset this penalty.
> 
> The use of composite materials in commercial transport aircraft is attractive because reduced airframe weight enables better fuel economy and therefore lowers operating costs. The first significant use of composite material in a commercial aircraft was by Airbus in 1983 in the rudder of the A300 and A310, and then in 1985 in the vertical tail fin. In the latter case, the 2,000 parts (excluding fasteners) of the metal fin were reduced to fewer than 100 for the composite fin, lowering its weight and production cost. Later, a honeycomb core with CFRP faceplates was used for the elevator of the A310. Following these successes, composite materials were used for the entire tail structure of the A320, which also featured composite fuselage belly skins, fin/fuselage fairings, fixed leadingand trailing-edge bottom access panels and deflectors, trailing-edge flaps and flap-track fairings, spoilers, ailerons, wheel doors, main gear leg fairing doors, and nacelles. In addition, the floor panels were made of GFRP. In total, composites constitute 28 percent of the weight of the A320 airframe.
> 
> The A340-500 and 600 feature additional composite structures, including the rear pressure bulkhead, the keel beam, and some of the fixed leading edge of the wing. The last is particularly significant, as it constitutes the first large-scale use of a thermoplastic matrix composite component on a commercial transport aircraft. The use of composites enabled a 20 percent saving in weight along with a lower production time and improved damage tolerance.
> 
> The A380 is about 20-22 percent composites by weight and also makes extensive use of GLARE (glass-fibre reinforced aluminium alloy), which features in the front fairing, upper fuselage shells, crown and side panels, and the upper sections of the forward and aft upper fuselage. GLARE laminates are made up of four or more 0.38 mm (0.015 in) thick sheets of aluminium alloy and glass fibre resin bond film. GLARE offers weight savings of between 3 Fighter Aircraft U.S. Europe Russia AV-8B, F16, F14, F18, YF23, F22, JSF, UCAV Harrier GR7, Gripen JAS39, Mirage 2000, Rafael, Eurofighter, Lavi, EADS Mako MIG29, Su Series Bomber U.S B2 Transport U.S. Europe KC135, C17, 777, 767, MD1 1 A320, A340, A380, Tu204. ATR42, Falcon 900, A300-600 General Aviation Piaggio, Starship, Premier 1, Boeing 787 Rotary Aircraft V22, Eurocopter, Comanche, RAH66, BA609, EH101, Super Lynx 300, S92 15 and 30 percent over aluminium alloy along with very good fatigue resistance. The top and bottom skin panels of the A380 and the front, centre and rear spars contain CFRP, which is also used for the rear pressure bulkhead, the upper deck floor beams, and for the ailerons, spoilers and outer flaps. The belly fairing consists of about 100 composite honeycomb panels.
> 
> The Boeing 777, whose maiden flight was 10 ten years ago, is around 20 percent composites by weight, with composite materials being used for the wing’s fixed leading edge, the trailing-edge panels, the flaps and flaperons, the spoilers, and the outboard aileron. They are also used for the floor beams, the wing-to-body fairing, and the landing-gear doors. Using composite materials for the empennage saves approximately 1,500 lb in weight.
> 
> Composite materials constitute almost 50 percent of the Boeing 787, with average weight savings of 20 percent. The excellent strength-to-weight ratio of composites is also used in helicopters to maximize payloads and performance in general. Boeing Vertol used composites for rotorcraft fairings in the 1950s and made the first composite rotor blades in the 1970s. Composites are used in major structural elements of many modern helicopters, including the V22 tilt-rotor aircraft, which is approximately 50 percent composites by weight. The formability of composites has been used to particular advantage in helicopter manufacture to reduce the numbers of component parts and therefore cost.
> 
> Validated Research Data to Improve Engineering Design, Performance and Methodology
> The ESDU (www.ihsesdu.com) Composites Series provides a collection of ‘Data Items’ and programs for use in the design of fibre-reinforced laminated composite materials. The information is provided primarily for use in the aerospace industry, but has wide application to other areas of engineering where composite materials offer similar design benefits. The ESDU Composites Series contains the solutions to many strength analysis problems 4 Improved Toughness Resin (977-3) Used in All C/E Structural Applications High Strength/Durability (AERMET 100) Used in Flap Transmissions and elsewhere Increased Carbon Epoxy Usage in Center and Aft Fuselage Carbon Fibers (IM7) Used in Wing and Tail Skins Percent of Structural Weight F/A-18C/D F/A-18E/F 49 15 13 10 13 100 31 14 21 19 15 100 Aluminum Steel Titanium Carbon Epoxy Other met in the design of fibre-reinforced laminated composite structures. These applications include failure criteria, plate vibration and buckling, analysis of bonded joints, and stress concentrations, in addition to the calculation of basic stiffnesses and stresses, and built-in thermal stresses. Laminated composites can be specified in very many forms and assembled in a multitude of lay-up arrangements. Because of this complexity the only practical form in which many of the solutions can be delivered is as computer programs, and Fortran programs are provided for many of the analysis methods. In addition to the flexibility to change the overall geometry, a designer in composites can arrange the material strength and/or stiffness to meet the local loading. This complicates the design process and it is often difficult to select a route to the best combination of geometry and material. The ESDU Composites Series includes guidance on the factors influencing the design and suggests methods of achieving the desired solution.
> 
> The ESDU Composite Series, which consists of 44 Data Items accompanied by 28 Fortran programs, encompasses the areas summarized:
> • Laminated composites – stress analysis, stiffnesses, lay-ups for special orthotropy, circular hole stress raiser, through-the- thickness shear stiffness, laminate design
> • Buckling of balanced laminated composites – rectangular plates (flat/curved), panel with orthotropic stiffeners • Buckling of unbalanced laminated rectangular plates
> • Sandwich panels with composite face plates – wrinkling of beams, columns, panels
> • Bonded joints – single- and multi-step lap, guide to design
> • Plates under pressure
> • Failure criteria – failure modes and analysis, criteria, edge delamination
> • Damping and response to acoustic loading – damping and rms (root mean square) strain in panels, fatigue life of elements
> • Natural modes of vibration – rectangular flat/curved plates (also with in-plane loading), sandwich panels with laminated face plates
> 
> Conclusions
> So-called ‘conventional’ metallic materials and their derivatives continue to be developed and improved to offer ever increasing performance, and there is no doubt that they have a fundamental role in aerospace structures and the myriad applications in which they are employed. At the same time, there is little doubt that the considerable benefits offered by composites have yet to be fully exploited and as knowledge and understanding grow, composite materials will play an increasingly significant role. This role will expand not only as a result of improved material performance, but also as human ingenuity finds more and diverse areas where composite materials can be beneficially and advantageously employed.
> 
> Source
> [1] Mainly from Reference 1: “Low-cost composite materials and structures for aircraft applications”, Deo, R.B., Starnes, J.H., Holzwarth, R.C., May 2001.

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## aliyusuf

Deino said:


> Pardon, but I don't see any cuts and the fact that it is blurred is due to being taken from some distance... IMO there is no doubt, that it is real.





HRK said:


> yup ... in terms of avionics and software blk-I were upgraded to blk-II standards, in terms of airframe there was no difference so yes blk-I are equivalent to bkl-II but these are still identified as blk-I ....
> 
> 
> most probably these observations are due to the difference in colour blk-III is in primer coat while blk-I pic is in operational livery


Yes but if memory serves me right ... Block-IIs have increased payload capacity w.r.t. Block-I ... due to strengthened wing-roots ... furthermore Block-II's come with IFR probe or at least the plumbings in place.

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## MastanKhan

Armchair said:


> Okay if you say so MK : )



i guess you are correct on honemade

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## JamD

Armchair said:


> Thank you for an educated reply. I'm just passing on the exasperation of US aeronautical engineers when they see a fighter jet made of aluminum alloy. Now, I am not saying go 100% with composites. Particularly when you talk of key structural components of wide bodied airliners. Those are gigantic and highly complex things. We are discussing instead components of a small fighter. Does it make sense to build so much of it from aluminum? It seems for the PAF it does. It seems also that US aeronautical engineers don't share that enthusiasm. Hope I made my point a bit clearer.



You've sort of answered your own concern. The JF-17 has composites in nonstructural places already. Those are relatively easy to design, maintain, replace. Keep in mind it's hard to find anything on an aircraft that isn't load carrying (even the skin carries a lot of load in some places).

There's plenty metal in US designs still. It's not like US engineers are looking at Aluminum with disdain or anything. It's an engineering decision not a high-school popularity contest. If the US DoD can dish out $220 million per plane, then the engineers have the freedom to incorporate all sorts of fancy composite structural members. It would be cost-prohibitive even for the US to go 100% composite. It's what you can afford and what capability it gets you. 

It's not about lacking the capability to manufacture, diagnose, and maintain composites. There's plenty of people and tech in Pakistan that can do this correctly I can assure you of that. It's about the cost, both in manufacturing and maintenance. 

Also whatever I said about composite aircraft structures was equally (if not more) true for small fighters. Airliners go through predictable cycles during operations. It's easier to account for composite fatigue in that case with decent models. Fighters go through harsh maneuvers that are "non-standard" and that's where you need either complicated models, sensors, or both to guess how your structure has degraded. My point is it isn't as simple as carbon fibre cloth lay up in an oven and you're done.



CriticalThought said:


> Searching google scholar for 'composites in aerospace' turns up this gem. It validates some of what you say, but it corroborates that composites are heavily used in modern aircraft:
> 
> https://ihsmarkit.com/pdf/Composites-Aerospace-Applications-whitepaper_264558110913046532.pdf


Yes they are. My point was simply an aircraft made with composites is significantly more expensive to design, manufacture, and operate. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. I am sure we will see much more significant use of composites in Azm because that will be an expensive and high-end aircraft. The JF-17 is a budget workhorse. It doesn't make sense for it to have a high percentage of composites. That would've reduced your JF-17 numbers by half and in return you would get maybe 10% more thrust to weight and 10% endurance. Not worth it if you ask me.

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## HRK

aliyusuf said:


> Yes but if memory serves me right ... Block-IIs have increased payload capacity w.r.t. Block-I


as per engineer who is/was incharge of sub-assembly manufacturing for JF-17 in PAC wings for JF-17 are manufactured for *25 years of service life*, so I don't think they have upgraded wings of 50 blk-I aircrafts which mean 100 wings therefore I believe the previous figures of payload capacity of JF-17 blk-I was representing the restricted figures rather the actual payload carrying capacity. 


aliyusuf said:


> furthermore Block-II's come with IFR probe or at least the plumbings in place.


only from 16-229 and onward


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## Bratva

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1235491240952696839

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## CriticalThought

JamD said:


> You've sort of answered your own concern. The JF-17 has composites in nonstructural places already. Those are relatively easy to design, maintain, replace. Keep in mind it's hard to find anything on an aircraft that isn't load carrying (even the skin carries a lot of load in some places).
> 
> There's plenty metal in US designs still. It's not like US engineers are looking at Aluminum with disdain or anything. It's an engineering decision not a high-school popularity contest. If the US DoD can dish out $220 million per plane, then the engineers have the freedom to incorporate all sorts of fancy composite structural members. It would be cost-prohibitive even for the US to go 100% composite. It's what you can afford and what capability it gets you.
> 
> It's not about lacking the capability to manufacture, diagnose, and maintain composites. There's plenty of people and tech in Pakistan that can do this correctly I can assure you of that. It's about the cost, both in manufacturing and maintenance.
> 
> Also whatever I said about composite aircraft structures was equally (if not more) true for small fighters. Airliners go through predictable cycles during operations. It's easier to account for composite fatigue in that case with decent models. Fighters go through harsh maneuvers that are "non-standard" and that's where you need either complicated models, sensors, or both to guess how your structure has degraded. My point is it isn't as simple as carbon fibre cloth lay up in an oven and you're done.
> 
> 
> Yes they are. My point was simply an aircraft made with composites is significantly more expensive to design, manufacture, and operate. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. I am sure we will see much more significant use of composites in Azm because that will be an expensive and high-end aircraft. The JF-17 is a budget workhorse. It doesn't make sense for it to have a high percentage of composites. That would've reduced your JF-17 numbers by half and in return you would get maybe 10% more thrust to weight and 10% endurance. Not worth it if you ask me.



Actually, the biggest reason not to use composites is because you actually want your aircraft to have some mass. Mass creates inertia, which means a mere gust of wind cannot throw you off course. This becomes even more important for light fighters that already have a low mass. The result of going overboard with composites on a light fighter is something like Tejas. If you see the videos of Tejas firing missiles during IOC, the mere act of firing a missile causes the aircraft to sway. Of course the FBW controls are the main culprit, but the job would be easier if the aircraft had some bulk. Overuse of composites in a light fighter creates an airshow queen.

The other aspect is commercial. The aircraft is being sold to Nigeria and Myanmar. Neither of them have the kind of setup that could monitor and maintain composites if they were to be used in load bearing areas. The aircraft is a workhorse meant for third world countries.

Finally, it doesn't simply use aluminum, but an aerospace grade aluminum alloy. I am not aware what exactly is the composition of this alloy. Other metals are used as and when needed

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## JamD

CriticalThought said:


> Actually, the biggest reason not to use composites is because you actually want your aircraft to have some mass. Mass creates inertia, which means a mere gust of wind cannot throw you off course. This becomes even more important for light fighters that already have a low mass.


I am very very sure that that's not true. No fighter is in danger of being too light.

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## MastanKhan

Armchair said:


> Okay if you say so MK : )



Hi,

That is not fighter aircraft grade process---.

Enjoy this read---

https://www.thoughtco.com/how-is-carbon-fiber-made-820391

https://www.compositesworld.com/articles/the-making-of-carbon-fiber

http://news.mit.edu/2020/carbon-nanotubes-making-airplane-aerospace-parts-1013

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## Armchair

JamD said:


> You've sort of answered your own concern. The JF-17 has composites in nonstructural places already. Those are relatively easy to design, maintain, replace. Keep in mind it's hard to find anything on an aircraft that isn't load carrying (even the skin carries a lot of load in some places).
> 
> There's plenty metal in US designs still. It's not like US engineers are looking at Aluminum with disdain or anything. It's an engineering decision not a high-school popularity contest. If the US DoD can dish out $220 million per plane, then the engineers have the freedom to incorporate all sorts of fancy composite structural members. It would be cost-prohibitive even for the US to go 100% composite. It's what you can afford and what capability it gets you.
> 
> It's not about lacking the capability to manufacture, diagnose, and maintain composites. There's plenty of people and tech in Pakistan that can do this correctly I can assure you of that. It's about the cost, both in manufacturing and maintenance.
> 
> Also whatever I said about composite aircraft structures was equally (if not more) true for small fighters. Airliners go through predictable cycles during operations. It's easier to account for composite fatigue in that case with decent models. Fighters go through harsh maneuvers that are "non-standard" and that's where you need either complicated models, sensors, or both to guess how your structure has degraded. My point is it isn't as simple as carbon fibre cloth lay up in an oven and you're done.
> 
> 
> Yes they are. My point was simply an aircraft made with composites is significantly more expensive to design, manufacture, and operate. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. I am sure we will see much more significant use of composites in Azm because that will be an expensive and high-end aircraft. The JF-17 is a budget workhorse. It doesn't make sense for it to have a high percentage of composites. That would've reduced your JF-17 numbers by half and in return you would get maybe 10% more thrust to weight and 10% endurance. Not worth it if you ask me.



The internet is a funny place, we really don't know who we are talking to. Otherwise I would have given full weight to your assurances. However, I do think there is a level of phobia when it comes to something new and for the Pak military base, composites may be one such phobia.

To every argument, the unimaginative reply typically is "it will cost too much". And then, bam, they buy something incredibly expensive from abroad. Case in point, the SMG purchase. Later this turned out to be a case of brown envelopes changing hands. 

Here is a quote from Burt Rutan on aircraft design:
"If composites had preceded aluminum, we would have never certified aluminum for aircraft, due to its fatigue characteristics and its corrosion issues."
Think you might find it interesting and perhaps detracting from your understanding of the greater scheme of things. 

We have a lot of engineers and scientists trained abroad and they come back thinking they know the world. But there is something they don't know. The evolution of those technologies they learned about. When Boeing puts sensor and takes microscopic care to ensure there is no fault in the aircraft, they imagine this is how its done and should be done. 

Yet, they never learned the pioneer spirit that is needed that preceded the stage where Six Sigma black belts were needed. Such engineers and scientists can never truly be innovators. Because when you have a nascent industry, you need people who are passionate pioneers, hobbyists. Not "I memorized notes, went abroad and got a degree, now don't try to tell me what I know". 

You see, the Wright Flyer wasn't built with Six Sigma. it wasn't stress tested. Neither were the vast majority of the innovations coming out of the West. One does not need to put sensors between composite sandwiches because that is where the bozzo who got his degree from Amreeka is stuck at. 

When you have a pioneer mindset, you are willing to make leaps of faith. You are willing to take a risk and "see what happens". That mindset is sorely lacking. 

Instead of saying "lets put sensors in the structure" one could have easily said "how does this part generally perform in other similar aircraft". "Can we have a ball-park figure on the MTBF". 

If Pak military industrial complex and PAF were such straight thinkers, they would not be needing Chinese assistance at every baby step. Al Khalid would be a proper tank built in numbers and not derided during the Saudi tests. Pak would be able to build a corvette on its own and have some form of SAM systems for all services developed. Drones would not need to be imported left right and center. 

So forgive me if your assurances about the competence in the back room is taken with a dose of salt.

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## Raider 21

Bratva said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1235491240952696839


Impressive, yet every female is somehow one of the first PAF female fighter pilots.

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## Adam_Khan

Knuckles said:


> Impressive, yet every female is somehow one of the first PAF female fighter pilots.



Soon she'd also end up on transports or helis like the so many before her,not sure why are they even sending them to 18 OCU when no one has actually been posted to a fighter squadron afterwards.


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## Ahmet Pasha

Hook my parents up with this pashtun family 


Bratva said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1235491240952696839


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## fatman17

C4iSR: Joint & Common Equipment
*Pakistan aiming to procure radomes for its AN/TPS-77 and YLC-18A radar systems*
*Gabriel Dominguez, London* - Jane's Defence Weekly
16 March 2020



The Directorate of Procurement (Air) for the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has issued invitations for tenders to procure an undisclosed number of radomes for the service's Lockheed Martin AN/TPS-77 and China Electronics Technology Group Corporation (CETC) YLC-18A ground-based air-defence radar systems.

The move, which was announced on 11 March, comes after Pakistan's Ministry of Defence Production (MoDP) revealed in its yearbook for 2017-18, which was released in September 2019, that the PAF had placed an order worth USD24.9 million for five of the Chinese-made YLC-18A radars.

The PAF has invited responses to the radome tender by 1 April. No further details were provided.

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## CriticalThought

JamD said:


> I am very very sure that that's not true. No fighter is in danger of being too light.



I can help you become 100% sure.

At a minimum, a fighter needs a human, ammunition, communication, thrust, and maneuvers. The human needs life support systems, thrust needs an engine, and maneuvers need an aerodynamic body. All these factors combine with available technology to set a minimum weight for a fighter. No fighter jet can have lesser weight.

Next, although I said mass plays an important role, to be technically precise I should say mass distribution. For the example I gave of instability caused by firing a missile, rotational inertia would help the control system designer. Rotational inertia is determined by the second moment, which in turn depends on mass distribution. For a fighter jet, there is certainly such a thing as being too light in the wrong places.


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## mingle

Knuckles said:


> Impressive, yet every female is somehow one of the first PAF female fighter pilots.


She is good looking with a smile PAF should use her as recruit model for more Girls


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## JamD

Armchair said:


> The internet is a funny place, we really don't know who we are talking to. Otherwise I would have given full weight to your assurances. However, I do think there is a level of phobia when it comes to something new and for the Pak military base, composites may be one such phobia.
> 
> To every argument, the unimaginative reply typically is "it will cost too much". And then, bam, they buy something incredibly expensive from abroad. Case in point, the SMG purchase. Later this turned out to be a case of brown envelopes changing hands.
> 
> Here is a quote from Burt Rutan on aircraft design:
> "If composites had preceded aluminum, we would have never certified aluminum for aircraft, due to its fatigue characteristics and its corrosion issues."
> Think you might find it interesting and perhaps detracting from your understanding of the greater scheme of things.
> 
> We have a lot of engineers and scientists trained abroad and they come back thinking they know the world. But there is something they don't know. The evolution of those technologies they learned about. When Boeing puts sensor and takes microscopic care to ensure there is no fault in the aircraft, they imagine this is how its done and should be done.
> 
> Yet, they never learned the pioneer spirit that is needed that preceded the stage where Six Sigma black belts were needed. Such engineers and scientists can never truly be innovators. Because when you have a nascent industry, you need people who are passionate pioneers, hobbyists. Not "I memorized notes, went abroad and got a degree, now don't try to tell me what I know".
> 
> You see, the Wright Flyer wasn't built with Six Sigma. it wasn't stress tested. Neither were the vast majority of the innovations coming out of the West. One does not need to put sensors between composite sandwiches because that is where the bozzo who got his degree from Amreeka is stuck at.
> 
> When you have a pioneer mindset, you are willing to make leaps of faith. You are willing to take a risk and "see what happens". That mindset is sorely lacking.
> 
> Instead of saying "lets put sensors in the structure" one could have easily said "how does this part generally perform in other similar aircraft". "Can we have a ball-park figure on the MTBF".
> 
> If Pak military industrial complex and PAF were such straight thinkers, they would not be needing Chinese assistance at every baby step. Al Khalid would be a proper tank built in numbers and not derided during the Saudi tests. Pak would be able to build a corvette on its own and have some form of SAM systems for all services developed. Drones would not need to be imported left right and center.
> 
> So forgive me if your assurances about the competence in the back room is taken with a dose of salt.



I mostly agree with the philosophical argument you are making. What had happened if composites had preceded aluminum. We might have had the advanced models for composite fatigue that we have for metals. I also agree about the lack of imagination in Pakistani military complex. If you go through my post history you'll know how I write about those things too.

But the undeniable fact is that composites didn't precede metals. Even the "US aeronautical engineers who look at PACs aluminum aircraft with disgust" have to either spend money modeling their composite structures or instrumenting them or both. And the fact that they are expensive remains.

Furthermore, my post was about a very specific aspect of aircraft design: the heavy use of composites. And I gave an argument on why it made sense to limit it. This wasn't an argument about the greatness or dumbness of PAC.

And you are right. There's nothing I can say that will convince you of my assurances. It is the web. I have a certain reputation and people might guess what I do and what I know but those are only guesses. I could be a RAW agent for all that matters. But the technical part of my argument stands regardless of who makes that argument. So I hope we all have a better appreciation of the practical challenges associated with the use of composites in aircraft. 

With that being said this is the PAF News & Discussion thread, which I do not want to derail anymore.



CriticalThought said:


> I can help you become 100% sure.
> 
> At a minimum, a fighter needs a human, ammunition, communication, thrust, and maneuvers. The human needs life support systems, thrust needs an engine, and maneuvers need an aerodynamic body. All these factors combine with available technology to set a minimum weight for a fighter. No fighter jet can have lesser weight.
> 
> Next, although I said mass plays an important role, to be technically precise I should say mass distribution. For the example I gave of instability caused by firing a missile, rotational inertia would help the control system designer. Rotational inertia is determined by the second moment, which in turn depends on mass distribution. For a fighter jet, there is certainly such a thing as being too light in the wrong places.


I will respectfully disagree. And I am sorry I am unable to respond to your argument because I feel it will waste both our times.

Also, this is the PAF News & Discussion thread, which I do not want to derail anymore.

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## MastanKhan

Armchair said:


> Okay if you say so MK : )



Hi,

I got my focus back today---yesterday I was busy looking for groceries---only found 1 dozen eggs and a gallon bottle of milk---.

See---in the video the guy is just making a mould---a mould for just general use---.

So---leaving aside the making of the carbon fibre before moulding it to the shape you need---we won't talk about that---.

When you are making carbon fiber for fighter aircraft skin---the process is very high quality control intensive---. Then you have testing done on the material to see the longevity of your mould and wear and tear factor over a period of time---.

One of the biggest concern in using carbon fiber is that testing for micro cracks is not easy---.

An interesting 207 page thesis if someone wants to read it---.

Bottomline---carbon Fiber is wonderful but not without issues---. It is very cost and labor intensive---.

For paf---nothing works like the conventional Aluminum skin---.

But for stepping into the 21st century---one has to use the Carbon Fiber just to show that we use it---we know how to use it---we know how to manage and maintain it---and generally speaking---it is a good selling tool that we are a modern aircraft manufacturer---.

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## Ahmet Pasha

How you feelin about $1000 handouts??
What u gonna spend it on??
Cali is pretty expensive. I wonder what you can get in a $1000 in Cali.


MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I got my focus back today---yesterday I was busy looking for groceries---only found 1 dozen eggs and a gallon bottle of milk---.
> 
> See---in the video the guy is just making a mould---a mould for just general use---.
> 
> So---leaving aside the making of the carbon fibre before moulding it to the shape you need---we won't talk about that---.
> 
> When you are making carbon fiber for fighter aircraft skin---the process is very high quality control intensive---. Then you have testing done on the material to see the longevity of your mould and wear and tear factor over a period of time---.
> 
> One of the biggest concern in using carbon fiber is that testing for micro cracks is not easy---.
> 
> An interesting 207 page thesis if someone wants to read it---.
> 
> Bottomline---carbon Fiber is wonderful but not without issues---. It is very cost and labor intensive---.
> 
> For paf---nothing works like the conventional Aluminum skin---.
> 
> But for stepping into the 21st century---one has to use the Carbon Fiber just to show that we use it---we know how to use it---we know how to manage and maintain it---and generally speaking---it is a good selling tool that we are a modern aircraft manufacturer---.


----------



## MastanKhan

Ahmet Pasha said:


> How you feelin about $1000 handouts??
> What u gonna spend it on??
> Cali is pretty expensive. I wonder what you can get in a $1000 in Cali.



We will cross that bridge when we get to it---.


----------



## Armchair

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I got my focus back today---yesterday I was busy looking for groceries---only found 1 dozen eggs and a gallon bottle of milk---.
> 
> See---in the video the guy is just making a mould---a mould for just general use---.
> 
> So---leaving aside the making of the carbon fibre before moulding it to the shape you need---we won't talk about that---.
> 
> When you are making carbon fiber for fighter aircraft skin---the process is very high quality control intensive---. Then you have testing done on the material to see the longevity of your mould and wear and tear factor over a period of time---.
> 
> One of the biggest concern in using carbon fiber is that testing for micro cracks is not easy---.
> 
> An interesting 207 page thesis if someone wants to read it---.
> 
> Bottomline---carbon Fiber is wonderful but not without issues---. It is very cost and labor intensive---.
> 
> For paf---nothing works like the conventional Aluminum skin---.
> 
> But for stepping into the 21st century---one has to use the Carbon Fiber just to show that we use it---we know how to use it---we know how to manage and maintain it---and generally speaking---it is a good selling tool that we are a modern aircraft manufacturer---.




If you check out youtube there are a lot of carbon fiber parts being built, starting with the mold. Let's assume I don't know what I am talking about, why would Burt Rutan, one of the most celebrated aircraft designers in the last 40 years, say what he said? See quote in my last post. Think about it. 

I worked on a project where I got to meet the CNS of a navy lets say from a third world asian country. The guy running the project had a relative in the higher up of the navy. He and the team pretended to be a Canadian defense contractor (and made me the American subsidiary of their pretended company). 

We presented a comprehensive base security solution and had to pretend to source everything from "the West" just so as to wow these Macauley's children. This was going to cost millions and millions of dollars, for products that the country really didn't need. 

Some of the products included items that could have easily been built locally. For instance, electrified concertina wires. Basically, two spirals of wire, one interior, which has a current going through it, and one exterior. Between them are plastic bits that keep the two wires apart. I convinced the boss to have this locally built, designed the specs and viola, we did it at 1/100th the cost. That's 1/100. 

And I am not even an engineer. 

Imagine the insanity going on in these countries. Just mad mad garbage. Now, you can deny and imagine all this doesn't happen in Pakistan, but that would just be being an ostrich really. 

The scale of incompetence, ego, nepotism and corruption is incredible. Should we all remember PShamim at least? At least he was a PAF officer who had the guts to admit what he did. How many are not telling you the truth? 

We all know how difficult the JFT was to start. But one of the greatest difficulties came from within the PAF and still continues today in the form of an F-16 mafia. Do I really need to explain all of this?

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## Tank131

Armchair said:


> If you check out youtube there are a lot of carbon fiber parts being built, starting with the mold. Let's assume I don't know what I am talking about, why would Burt Rutan, one of the most celebrated aircraft designers in the last 40 years, say what he said? See quote in my last post. Think about it.
> 
> I worked on a project where I got to meet the CNS of a navy lets say from a third world asian country. The guy running the project had a relative in the higher up of the navy. He and the team pretended to be a Canadian defense contractor (and made me the American subsidiary of their pretended company).
> 
> We presented a comprehensive base security solution and had to pretend to source everything from "the West" just so as to wow these Macauley's children. This was going to cost millions and millions of dollars, for products that the country really didn't need.
> 
> Some of the products included items that could have easily been built locally. For instance, electrified concertina wires. Basically, two spirals of wire, one interior, which has a current going through it, and one exterior. Between them are plastic bits that keep the two wires apart. I convinced the boss to have this locally built, designed the specs and viola, we did it at 1/100th the cost. That's 1/100.
> 
> And I am not even an engineer.
> 
> Imagine the insanity going on in these countries. Just mad mad garbage. Now, you can deny and imagine all this doesn't happen in Pakistan, but that would just be being an ostrich really.
> 
> The scale of incompetence, ego, nepotism and corruption is incredible. Should we all remember PShamim at least? At least he was a PAF officer who had the guts to admit what he did. How many are not telling you the truth?
> 
> We all know how difficult the JFT was to start. But one of the greatest difficulties came from within the PAF and still continues today in the form of an F-16 mafia. Do I really need to explain all of this?


What did pshamim do?


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## Incog_nito

is PAF involved in the Chinese J-31 program as partner?

I think PAF should eventually procure a good deal of JF-17s and make it 70+% of the fleet.

But with all that PAF should not avoid thinking about fighters from other regions to add to the capability:

JAS-39 E/F Grippen
SU-57
F-16s Block-70s
J-20 / J-31


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## araz

Tank131 said:


> What did pshamim do?


Pshamim was a lockmart representative for Pakistan. However it needs to be understood that he retired from PAF well before he joined Lockheed.
A

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## PakFactor

araz said:


> Pshamim was a lockmart representative for Pakistan. However it needs to be understood that he retired from PAF well before he joined Lockheed.
> A



I remember that name from old PDF forum didn’t know he was old PAF and LM is he still active here ?


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## Shabi1

I don't get why carbon fiber materials are a issue. Its a common material and used in JF-17 structure wherever needed. Only the Indian's bragged about it because it was a over marketed term for the Tejas.

PAC Kamra has aviation grade carbon composite manufacturing tech that was first acquired when we bought TOT for the Falco UAVs and PAC is a co producer meaning it supplies components back to the original manufacturer. Falco UAVs are old news so the infrastructure must have enhanced now. Likewise China has pretty advanced material tech and when we buy TOTs we get it in Pakistan. No need to waste time discussing it.

https://www.pac.org.pk/amf
"AMF decided to venture in manufacturing of unmanned aerial vehicles through the latest carbon composite material. PAF after a comprehensive operational & technical evaluation process decided for establishment of FALCO UAV manufacturing facility at AMF. During the first phase, eight FALCO UAVs were received in form of semi-assembled kits . The Final assembly and system integration of these UAVs was successfully accomplished at AMF PAC Kamra under the supervision of OEM in 2007-2008 timeframe. During the same time period, state of the art equipment was also purchased to start co-production activities. After commissioning of the equipment and training on parts manufacturing, the newly established manufacturing facility was qualified by OEM to manufacture FALCO UAVs on European Quality Standards."

I remember there being a video of it and there was news of Turkey interested in collaboration with PAC to use Pakistan's manufacturing capability to boost overall production for aviation products.

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## araz

PakFactor said:


> I remember that name from old PDF forum didn’t know he was old PAF and LM is he still active here ?


He had severe eye problems and was pretty senior then. I hope he is well, but we have not had any contact with him for 5 years at least.

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## Windjammer

Guess Who.

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## Trailer23

Windjammer said:


> Guess Who.


You posted this pic a day back - and still no takers.


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## Safriz

Windjammer said:


> Guess Who.


Wing commander Noman Akram Shaheed.


----------



## fatman17

Even if not confirmed yet, this particular JF-17 with the serial no. 2P-60 - aka the 60th Block 2 aircraft built - is said to be the first for Nigeria.

(Image via Zohaib Malik via FB) https://t.co/o00flTN9rf


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## fatman17

Also interesting, they are said to be named 'Neelum' aka 'Blue Sapphire' similar to those to Myanmar are called 'Ruby'.

By the way, here was 2P-60 also spotted together with 2P-61. Is this one also for Nigeria?

(Image via GriffinsRule/PDF) https://t.co/fZ1FLrNNLX

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## Sinnerman108

fatman17 said:


> Even if not confirmed yet, this particular JF-17 with the serial no. 2P-60 - aka the 60th Block 2 aircraft built - is said to be the first for Nigeria.
> 
> (Image via Zohaib Malik via FB) https://t.co/o00flTN9rf
> View attachment 615657



Qibla,

Is this the right section of the forum ?


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## fatman17

Sinnerman108 said:


> Qibla,
> 
> Is this the right section of the forum ?


AFAIK, air force news


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## fatman17

Flypast 2020, cancelled


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## Armchair

araz said:


> He had severe eye problems and was pretty senior then. I hope he is well, but we have not had any contact with him for 5 years at least.



I last spoke to him over the phone in 2008. Haven't seen him active anywhere a long time.


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## Haris Ali2140

Right now according to wikipedia PAF has:
F-16 A/B/C/D: 76
JF-17: 107
Mirage 5: 92
Mirage 3: 87
F-7PG: 135

Can anyone give update on these numbers???
@fatman17 @Dazzler @Tipu7 @Signalian


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## Keysersoze

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Right now according to wikipedia PAF has:
> F-16 A/B/C/D: 76
> JF-17: 107
> Mirage 5: 92
> Mirage 3: 87
> F-7PG: 135
> 
> Can anyone give update on these numbers???
> @fatman17 @Dazzler @Tipu7 @Signalian


Wikipedia is notorious as it allows fanboys alter figures constantly. I had a battle once over the number of AH1's in PAA. I even provided serial numbers. Still got deleted and a totally fictional number was put on there....

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## ghazi52

Earlier in the day, the Air Chief arrived at PAF Base Mushaf, where he visited No 9 Multirole Squadron, the Unit of Wing Commander Noman Akram (Shaheed). The Air Chief also flew an operational training mission in F-16 aircraft alongside the combat crew of the Squadron. He interacted with the combat crew and expressed his satisfaction on the operational preparedness.

PAF F-16 Fighting Falcon

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## ghazi52

1922-3: Building work on the RAF Depot, Drigh Road, Karachi, now PAF Base Faisal :

The history of PAF Base Faisal, the oldest air base in Pakistan, is a rich one. It started out as RAF Drigh Road, and has a very interesting past. This is the place where Indian Air Force was born, and Lawrence of Arabia served as an engine clerk. The first flight in the history of Indian aviation lifted off from Drigh Road in Karachi. The RAF used the Drigh Road RAF Depot as their primary maintenance base to serve units throughout British India. Soon after the India Command of the Royal Air Force was formed in 1918, with a projected deployment of 8 squadrons on the subcontinent, an aircraft repair depot was established at Lahore with a detachment at Karachi and a port depot at Bombay. In 1922 the main unit was shifted from Lahore to Drigh Road, where the first commanding officer of what was called 'Aircraft Depot, India', was Wing Commander Charles D Breese, RAF.

The change to Karachi was logical because knocked down aircraft could be off loaded from British ships at this closest subcontinental depot, assembled, test flown and ferried away to the squadrons based inland. This was to remain the station's chief function until RAF Drigh Road was handed over to the Royal Pakistan Air Force in 1947.







.
Unloading P-38 Lightnng at kemari Karachi India 1942:

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## fatman17

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Right now according to wikipedia PAF has:
> F-16 A/B/C/D: 76
> JF-17: 107
> Mirage 5: 92
> Mirage 3: 87
> F-7PG: 135
> 
> Can anyone give update on these numbers???
> @fatman17 @Dazzler @Tipu7 @Signalian




Pakistan

■ PAKISTAN AIR FORCE. (Active Fleet)

100 of 112 on contract. Chengdu JF-17 Thunder MRCA. All current 50 aircraft are Block-I. The next 50 JF-17 will be Block-II and the third 50, Block III. A total of 150 aircraft are planned to be required. All will eventually be upgraded to Block III. The Block Is are being upgraded to Block IIs. An additional 12 Block 2s were ordered in early 2017. A further 26 JF17B (2-seat) trainer aircraft were ordered in 2018.

PAC Kamra in conjunction with China have successfully exported the JF17 Block II to Myanmar and Nigeria. Interest from Asian 3rd world air forces remains high.

76 General Dynamics/Lockheed Martin F-16A/B MRCA, comprising 58 Block-A/B (AM/BM) and 18 Block C/D. a F16AM was recently lost.

50 Dassault Mirage-IIIEP/OF/RP MRCA. Expected to remain in service until 2022 onwards.

50 Dassault Mirage-5EF/F/PA MRCA. The fleet will be replaced with the Chengdu JF-17 starting 2017.

12 Dassault Mirage-IIIBE/D/DP MRCA.

2 Dassault Mirage-5DPA MRCA.

Purchased Mirage III/5 aircraft from Egypt for fleet life extension program.

8 Chengdu FT-7 combat/trainer aircraft.

36 Chengdu F-7P.

35 Chengdu F-7PG MRCA.

39 Hongdu K-8 Karakorum light attack/ lead-in jet trainer.

2 Dassault Falcon 20/200 EW/reconnaissance aircraft.

3/1 Saab 2000 AEW&C aircraft, plus a utility / crew training aircraft.

4 Shaanxi Y-8/ZDK-03 airborne early warning and control (AEW&C).

4 Ilyushin Il-78 MRTT tanker/transport.

3/1 Airbus CN-235 turboprop freighter/VIP.

16 Lockheed Martin C-130 B/C/E and L-100 turboprop freighter. All aircraft being refurbished/upgraded to C130H standard.

6 Mil Mi-8/171 medium-lift utility (SAR) helicopter.

10 Airbus Helicopters SA-316 light utility helicopter. Replacement underway.

8 Leonardo AW139 utility/SAR/transport role. Deliveries commenced in mid-2017. Further inductions expected.

10 Aérospatiale SE-316 light utility helicopter. Replacement underway.

40 Cessna T-37B/C trainer aircraft. Recently acquired 34 T37C from Turkish Air Force for fleet replenishment program.

40 MFI-17 Super Mushshak, primary trainer/communication aircraft. Aircraft are being upgrade with glass cockpits.

Information taken from ASIAN DEFENCE MAGAZINE, NOV-2019 with additional comments added.



Keysersoze said:


> Wikipedia is notorious as it allows fanboys alter figures constantly. I had a battle once over the number of AH1's in PAA. I even provided serial numbers. Still got deleted and a totally fictional number was put on there....



I agree, its not a accurate source.

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## GriffinsRule

fatman17 said:


> Pakistan
> 
> ■ PAKISTAN AIR FORCE. (Active Fleet)
> 
> 100 of 112 on contract. Chengdu JF-17 Thunder MRCA. All current 50 aircraft are Block-I. The next 50 JF-17 will be Block-II and the third 50, Block III. A total of 150 aircraft are planned to be required. All will eventually be upgraded to Block III. The Block Is are being upgraded to Block IIs. An additional 12 Block 2s were ordered in early 2017. A further 26 JF17B (2-seat) trainer aircraft were ordered in 2018.
> 
> PAC Kamra in conjunction with China have successfully exported the JF17 Block II to Myanmar and Nigeria. Interest from Asian 3rd world air forces remains high.
> 
> 76 General Dynamics/Lockheed Martin F-16A/B MRCA, comprising 58 Block-A/B (AM/BM) and 18 Block C/D. a F16AM was recently lost.
> 
> 50 Dassault Mirage-IIIEP/OF/RP MRCA. Expected to remain in service until 2022 onwards.
> 
> 50 Dassault Mirage-5EF/F/PA MRCA. The fleet will be replaced with the Chengdu JF-17 starting 2017.
> 
> 12 Dassault Mirage-IIIBE/D/DP MRCA.
> 
> 2 Dassault Mirage-5DPA MRCA.
> 
> Purchased Mirage III/5 aircraft from Egypt for fleet life extension program.
> 
> 8 Chengdu FT-7 combat/trainer aircraft.
> 
> 36 Chengdu F-7P.
> 
> 35 Chengdu F-7PG MRCA.
> 
> 39 Hongdu K-8 Karakorum light attack/ lead-in jet trainer.
> 
> 2 Dassault Falcon 20/200 EW/reconnaissance aircraft.
> 
> 3/1 Saab 2000 AEW&C aircraft, plus a utility / crew training aircraft.
> 
> 4 Shaanxi Y-8/ZDK-03 airborne early warning and control (AEW&C).
> 
> 4 Ilyushin Il-78 MRTT tanker/transport.
> 
> 3/1 Airbus CN-235 turboprop freighter/VIP.
> 
> 16 Lockheed Martin C-130 B/C/E and L-100 turboprop freighter. All aircraft being refurbished/upgraded to C130H standard.
> 
> 6 Mil Mi-8/171 medium-lift utility (SAR) helicopter.
> 
> 10 Airbus Helicopters SA-316 light utility helicopter. Replacement underway.
> 
> 8 Leonardo AW139 utility/SAR/transport role. Deliveries commenced in mid-2017. Further inductions expected.
> 
> 10 Aérospatiale SE-316 light utility helicopter. Replacement underway.
> 
> 40 Cessna T-37B/C trainer aircraft. Recently acquired 34 T37C from Turkish Air Force for fleet replenishment program.
> 
> 40 MFI-17 Super Mushshak, primary trainer/communication aircraft. Aircraft are being upgrade with glass cockpits.
> 
> Information taken from ASIAN DEFENCE MAGAZINE, NOV-2019 with additional comments added.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree, its not a accurate source.


Nice effort but lots of incorrect information


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## fatman17

GriffinsRule said:


> Nice effort but lots of incorrect information



as you wish!

I used to put up a lot of data but everyone and anyone had more accurate data. LOL. we are never going to know what the 100% correct data is - 85-90% correct data is good enough to get a general idea of the situation.

even the experts like JANEs and SIPRI are wrong at times.

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## Haris Ali2140

fatman17 said:


> Pakistan
> 
> ■ PAKISTAN AIR FORCE. (Active Fleet)
> 
> 100 of 112 on contract. Chengdu JF-17 Thunder MRCA. All current 50 aircraft are Block-I. The next 50 JF-17 will be Block-II and the third 50, Block III. A total of 150 aircraft are planned to be required. All will eventually be upgraded to Block III. The Block Is are being upgraded to Block IIs. An additional 12 Block 2s were ordered in early 2017. A further 26 JF17B (2-seat) trainer aircraft were ordered in 2018.
> 
> PAC Kamra in conjunction with China have successfully exported the JF17 Block II to Myanmar and Nigeria. Interest from Asian 3rd world air forces remains high.
> 
> 76 General Dynamics/Lockheed Martin F-16A/B MRCA, comprising 58 Block-A/B (AM/BM) and 18 Block C/D. a F16AM was recently lost.
> 
> 50 Dassault Mirage-IIIEP/OF/RP MRCA. Expected to remain in service until 2022 onwards.
> 
> 50 Dassault Mirage-5EF/F/PA MRCA. The fleet will be replaced with the Chengdu JF-17 starting 2017.
> 
> 12 Dassault Mirage-IIIBE/D/DP MRCA.
> 
> 2 Dassault Mirage-5DPA MRCA.
> 
> Purchased Mirage III/5 aircraft from Egypt for fleet life extension program.
> 
> 8 Chengdu FT-7 combat/trainer aircraft.
> 
> 36 Chengdu F-7P.
> 
> 35 Chengdu F-7PG MRCA.
> 
> 39 Hongdu K-8 Karakorum light attack/ lead-in jet trainer.
> 
> 2 Dassault Falcon 20/200 EW/reconnaissance aircraft.
> 
> 3/1 Saab 2000 AEW&C aircraft, plus a utility / crew training aircraft.
> 
> 4 Shaanxi Y-8/ZDK-03 airborne early warning and control (AEW&C).
> 
> 4 Ilyushin Il-78 MRTT tanker/transport.
> 
> 3/1 Airbus CN-235 turboprop freighter/VIP.
> 
> 16 Lockheed Martin C-130 B/C/E and L-100 turboprop freighter. All aircraft being refurbished/upgraded to C130H standard.
> 
> 6 Mil Mi-8/171 medium-lift utility (SAR) helicopter.
> 
> 10 Airbus Helicopters SA-316 light utility helicopter. Replacement underway.
> 
> 8 Leonardo AW139 utility/SAR/transport role. Deliveries commenced in mid-2017. Further inductions expected.
> 
> 10 Aérospatiale SE-316 light utility helicopter. Replacement underway.
> 
> 40 Cessna T-37B/C trainer aircraft. Recently acquired 34 T37C from Turkish Air Force for fleet replenishment program.
> 
> 40 MFI-17 Super Mushshak, primary trainer/communication aircraft. Aircraft are being upgrade with glass cockpits.
> 
> Information taken from ASIAN DEFENCE MAGAZINE, NOV-2019 with additional comments added.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree, its not a accurate source.



What blocks does 58 F-16s AM/BM belongs to and joe many received MLU upgrades???


----------



## Trailer23

_Wg Cdr. Azman Khalil_ with Saudi Pilot after a familiarization flight in RSAF F-15C
during exercise *ACES MEET 2017*​


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## Shabi1

Haris Ali2140 said:


> What blocks does 58 F-16s AM/BM belongs to and joe many received MLU upgrades???


An F-16A/B which has received the MLU upgrade gets the AM/BM designation. All were Block-15 and received the MLU package with avionics at same level as Block-52.

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## Haris Ali2140

Shabi1 said:


> An F-16A/B which has received the MLU upgrade gets the AM/BM designation. All were Block-15 and received the MLU package with avionics at same level as Block-52.


There are also some F-16 ADF version. What are those???

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## War Historian

Haris Ali2140 said:


> What blocks does 58 F-16s AM/BM belongs to and joe many received MLU upgrades???


I think most of our 1980's Era old F16 are block 15 and also MLU. If i am not wrong after MLU they are almost block 40 equal.Ex jordanian F16 i thnk they are not MLU. Forgive me if i said some thing wrong. Thanks

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## Pakistani Fighter

Haris Ali2140 said:


> There are also some F-16 ADF version. What are those???


ADF are ex Jordanian. There Radars are prone to jam as told by @airomerix



fatman17 said:


> Purchased Mirage III/5 aircraft from Egypt for fleet life extension program.


Confirmed?


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## fatman17

I think RJAF had them Mlued


War Historian said:


> I think most of our 1980's Era old F16 are block 15 and also MLU. If i am not wrong after MLU they are almost block 40 equal.Ex jordanian F16 i thnk they are not MLU. Forgive me if i said some thing wrong. Thanks

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## War Historian

fatman17 said:


> I think RJAF had them Mlued


Sorry Sir, i have not much information about these Ex Jordanian F16.


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## Adam_Khan

War Historian said:


> I think most of our 1980's Era old F16 are block 15 and also MLU. If i am not wrong after MLU they are almost block 40 equal.Ex jordanian F16 i thnk they are not MLU. Forgive me if i said some thing wrong. Thanks



Avionics wise the Block 15 MLU's are almost equal to the Block 52's,only differences are in the airframe and engine.

Also the ex Jordanian aircraft are Block 15 ADF version so they're not MLU 'd.

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## SD 10

Adam_Khan said:


> Avionics wise the Block 15 MLU's are almost equal to the Block 52's,only differences are in the airframe and engine.
> 
> Also the ex Jordanian aircraft are Block 15 ADF version so they're not MLU 'd.


SiR, kindly explain adf version of f16, how is it different from blocka, b, or c? and how would you classify it in term of its equivalency with the bloack A, B,C?


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## StormBreaker

Adam_Khan said:


> Avionics wise the Block 15 MLU's are almost equal to the Block 52's,only differences are in the airframe and engine.
> 
> Also the ex Jordanian aircraft are Block 15 ADF version so they're not MLU 'd.


What are the restrictions of ADF ?
Are they BVR capable ?


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## DrWatson775

StormBreaker said:


> What are the restrictions of ADF ?
> Are they BVR capable ?


Yes they are BVR capable.

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## aliyusuf

StormBreaker said:


> What are the restrictions of ADF ?
> Are they BVR capable ?


Yes they certainly can ... upto 6 AIM-7F's or AIM-120 AMRAAM's as per F-16.net.
These equipped the US Air National Guards for the Air Defence Fighter role.
What is moot, is that whether Jordan received these birds with the BVR capability enabled or not.

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## Trailer23

fatman17 said:


> I think RJAF had them Mlued


Yes sir, they were MLU'ed.
*PAF acquires F-16s from Jordan*
https://www.thenews.com.pk/archive/print/636257-paf-acquires-f-16s-from-jordan


Adam_Khan said:


> Also the ex Jordanian aircraft are Block 15 ADF version so they're not MLU 'd.


----------



## Shabi1

Haris Ali2140 said:


> There are also some F-16 ADF version. What are those???


Those are Block-15 too but had the ability to carry Amraams even before upgrades. Got MLU upgrades too.


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## Adam_Khan

Trailer23 said:


> Yes sir, they were MLU'ed.
> *PAF acquires F-16s from Jordan*
> https://www.thenews.com.pk/archive/print/636257-paf-acquires-f-16s-from-jordan



Buddy they're not MLU'd,they have the same old cockpit displays alongside the APG.66 radar.

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## Haris Ali2140

Shabi1 said:


> Those are Block-15 too but had the ability to carry Amraams even before upgrades. Got MLU upgrades too.


So all F-16s of PAF are close or equal to BLK-52???


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## Trailer23

Adam_Khan said:


> Buddy they're not MLU'd,they have the same old cockpit displays alongside the APG.66 radar.


Alright man. Jeez.

I haven't actually climbed into one of 'em and taken a peek.

Like most (on PDF) - we're all getting information off the net.

But please, feel free to send us some pics of those Cockpit Displays and the APG.66 Radar.


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## Talon

Trailer23 said:


> Yes sir, they were MLU'ed.
> *PAF acquires F-16s from Jordan*
> https://www.thenews.com.pk/archive/print/636257-paf-acquires-f-16s-from-jordan


No sir not MLUed..still with old pits.

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## StormBreaker

Hodor said:


> No sir not MLUed..still with old pits.


Did they go through SLEP ?


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## shaded

fatman17 said:


> I think RJAF had them Mlued

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## Adam_Khan

Trailer23 said:


> Alright man. Jeez.
> 
> I haven't actually climbed into one of 'em and taken a peek.
> 
> Like most (on PDF) - we're all getting information off the net.
> 
> But please, feel free to send us some pics of those Cockpit Displays and the APG.66 Radar.



Compare that to the cockpit of an F.16 MLU.

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## StormBreaker

Adam_Khan said:


> Compare that to the cockpit of an F.16 MLU.
> 
> View attachment 616666


Too boring and shabby...


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## aliyusuf

Adam_Khan said:


> Compare that to the cockpit of an F.16 MLU.
> 
> View attachment 616666


Is this the Cockpit of the Block-15 ADF ?

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## Trailer23

Adam_Khan said:


> Compare that to the cockpit of an F.16 MLU.
> 
> View attachment 616666


Yeeesss.

Right, when I asked you to share pics of the F-16's cockpit, I was referring to the Jordanian acquired ones.

Not sure how many people are gonna pass that image (_above_) as the ex-Jordanian F-16's (now with PAF), but...I do know how to use Google Images (too).






You may be right that they aren't MLU'ed - just like that image you posted isn't the ex-Jordaian F-16.

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## Pakistani Fighter

StormBreaker said:


> Are they BVR capable ?


Yes but radars can be jammed


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## Adam_Khan

Trailer23 said:


> Yeeesss.
> 
> Right, when I asked you to share pics of the F-16's cockpit, I was referring to the Jordanian acquired ones.
> 
> Not sure how many people are gonna pass that image (_above_) as the ex-Jordanian F-16's (now with PAF), but...I do know how to use Google Images (too).
> 
> View attachment 616670
> 
> 
> You may be right that they aren't MLU'ed - just like that image you posted isn't the ex-Jordaian F-16.



Jordanian cockpit is exactly the same as the one I posted,sat in it and seen it first hand.

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## airomerix

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> ADF are ex Jordanian. There Radars are prone to jam as told by @airomerix



Jamming a radar is not a walk in the park. APG-66 is a 'relatively' older system and hence prone to forward jamming. 

And these F-16s are known as 'khokhas'. Younger pilots are transitioning to 19 sqn for conversion. This has enabled 11 and 9 sqn to focus on combat and advanced training roles (such as ACES/CCS)

Training puts a lot of strain on the aircraft. These F-16s get all the beating and seasoned pilots proceed to other 3 squadrons later on.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

airomerix said:


> Jamming a radar is not a walk in the park. APG-66 is a 'relatively' older system and hence prone to forward jamming.
> 
> And these F-16s are known as 'khokhas'. Younger pilots are transitioning to 19 sqn for conversion. This has enabled 11 and 9 sqn to focus on combat and advanced training roles (such as ACES/CCS)
> 
> Training puts a lot of strain on the aircraft. These F-16s get all the beating and seasoned pilots proceed to other 3 squadrons later on.


It would be nice if we could more of these older F-16A/Bs from other countries.

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## airomerix

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It would be nice if we could more of these older F-16A/Bs from other countries.



Everything requires congressional approval. 

The idea of additional used F-16 C/D's, used C-130J's, Ex Australian P-3's, release of Cobra Zulu's, warships was discussed with Ex Ambassador to Pakistan Cameron Munter at Global Strategic Threat & Response conference in Islamabad. FM Quraishi met with Munter a day before and it discussed to get the ball moving through congress which Munter hinted was a big challenge. Trump is not the problem, congress is.

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## Falcon26

airomerix said:


> Everything requires congressional approval.
> 
> The idea of additional used F-16 C/D's, used C-130J's, Ex Australian P-3's, release of Cobra Zulu's, warships was discussed with Ex Ambassador to Pakistan Cameron Munter at Global Strategic Threat & Response conference in Islamabad. FM Quraishi met with Munter a day before and it discussed to get the ball moving through congress which Munter hinted was a big challenge. Trump is not the problem, congress is.



current Congress is not hostile to Pakistan. They were running around IK like some groupies. But as it often happens, by the time Pakistan makes a decision, it will be too late.

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## Safriz

Falcon26 said:


> current Congress is not hostile to Pakistan. They were running around IK like some groupies. But as it often happens, by the time Pakistan makes a decision, it will be too late.


True.
Pakistan lacks the ability to milk the situation.

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## mingle

airomerix said:


> Everything requires congressional approval.
> 
> The idea of additional used F-16 C/D's, used C-130J's, Ex Australian P-3's, release of Cobra Zulu's, warships was discussed with Ex Ambassador to Pakistan Cameron Munter at Global Strategic Threat & Response conference in Islamabad. FM Quraishi met with Munter a day before and it discussed to get the ball moving through congress which Munter hinted was a big challenge. Trump is not the problem, congress is.


It would be nice but used stuff requires only state department approval unless its big new system? If we get what U mentioned would be great leap farward between Pak US relationship along trade.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Falcon26 said:


> current Congress is not hostile to Pakistan. They were running around IK like some groupies. But as it often happens, by the time Pakistan makes a decision, it will be too late.


House might be OK with Pakistan, but the Senate is still full of the same old guys who gave us trouble re the 8 F-16s.

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## Safriz

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> House might be OK with Pakistan, but the Senate is still full of the same old guys who gave us trouble re the 8 F-16s.


Unfortunately we don't have sunny Leone as our special envoy to warm their beds..
The naked truth.

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## Falcon26

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> House might be OK with Pakistan, but the Senate is still full of the same old guys who gave us trouble re the 8 F-16s.



True to an extent, but do keep in mind the personal chemistry between IK & Lindsey Graham who is a major republican figure in the senate. A deal supported by Trump and Lindsey Graham will sail through the senate. But things will change after November when the republicans are slated to lose some seats. So the window is fast closing for Pakistan. A republican leadership at the senate and White House has historically been very favorable prospects for Pakistan.

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## Shabi1

Haris Ali2140 said:


> So all F-16s of PAF are close or equal to BLK-52???


Yes

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Falcon26 said:


> True to an extent, but do keep in mind the personal chemistry between IK & Lindsey Graham who is a major republican figure in the senate. A deal supported by Trump and Lindsey Graham will sail through the senate. But things will change after November when the republicans are slated to lose some seats. So the window is fast closing for Pakistan. A republican leadership at the senate and White House has historically been very favorable prospects for Pakistan.


IMO we'll have a better chance with the Democrats. Things have changed. The Democrats of today aren't the same ilk of before. IK's softer tone is also helpful (doesn't hurt that we're on our 3rd democratic term with a different PM and governing party). Sure, the undertones are still around (e.g., the military's influence, tension with the media, etc) but definitely not as bad as earlier years. The key for us is less to do with the PAF (which will ask till kingdom come), but our lack of diplomatic competence.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IMO we'll have a better chance with the Democrats. Things have changed. The Democrats of today aren't the same ilk of before. IK's softer tone is also helpful (doesn't hurt that we're on our 3rd democratic term with a different PM and governing party). Sure, the undertones are still around (e.g., the military's influence, tension with the media, etc) but definitely not as bad as earlier years. The key for us is less to do with the PAF (which will ask till kingdom come), but our lack of diplomatic competence.


If Bernie wins then yes but if Biden wins then there could be the trouble

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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52

A-5 at Peshawar






Kamra

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## Pakistani Fighter

What is CSC Engineering Branch in PAF?
@airomerix @Hodor @khanasifm


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## airomerix

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> What is CSC Engineering Branch in PAF?
> @airomerix @Hodor @khanasifm



It is like a short service commission for engineers. 

These cadets have already acquired an engineering degree from a university and they enroll for 1 year at Risalpur for military training.

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## KaiserX

ghazi52 said:


> A-5 at Peshawar
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kamra



Wow have got to admit the A-5 is a very beautiful bird.


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## Pakistani Fighter

airomerix said:


> short service commission


What does this means?


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## Path-Finder

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1242135509088055296

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## mingle

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> What does this means?


Short service means they will not go PMA or PAF Risalpur they will go different school used to at Mangla for Army not sure about PAF Navy used to be karsaz karachi plus usually they won't go above Major rank bottom line short service means fill the ranks quick.


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## The Eagle

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> What is CSC Engineering Branch in PAF?
> @airomerix @Hodor @khanasifm



It will be better to use military career section and question thread.

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## Incog_nito

Is PAF looking to acquire L-39NG, like in numbers similar to 20 to 40?

Unit Cost: €12-15M per piece


Sources:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aero_L-39NG


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## air marshal

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1244189854751211521

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## Safriz

So NGFA it is.....

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## fatman17

PAC flew Super Mushshak with the new GenesyS digital cockpit system yesterday. Super Mushshak Flies with Genesys Aerosystems Glass Cockpit | Genesys Aerosystems https://t.co/EDD8TdYutY

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## fatman17

The @RAFFPForceHQ recently deployed a team to conduct a Train the Trainer package to Pakistan Air Force officers at Nur Khan Airbase.

The training will provide the skills required to self-sustain their own delivery of an Air FP Command & Control training course. https://t.co/fPBqCJZpP8

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## Maxpane



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## fatman17

Maxpane said:


> View attachment 619395



who is the civilian please

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## Maxpane

fatman17 said:


> who is the civilian please


sir secretary of MODP

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## Path-Finder

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1246028451615772672

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1245979802500292608

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## mingle

Path-Finder said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1246028451615772672
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1245979802500292608


Indian trolls are worst and even better aviation accounts are same shit feel sorry about Indians time they spent on trolling better spend on training

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## Path-Finder

mingle said:


> Indian trolls are worst and even better aviation accounts are same shit feel sorry about Indians time they spent on trolling better spend on training


internet sena is the strongest arm of india.

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## mingle

Path-Finder said:


> internet sena is the strongest arm of india.


It's good due to papulation size but not good being idiots

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## Apex

Germany's Rheinland @air_service has received a license to deliver a third RAS-72 Sea Eagle MPA to Pakistan. The ac is derived from ATR-72 commercial turboprop, and is part of a multi-year contract signed in 2015.
https://t.co/dgXi9oFn9X https://t.co/U2Qk4S9n0d

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## araz

Apex said:


> Germany's Rheinland @air_service has received a license to deliver a third RAS-72 Sea Eagle MPA to Pakistan. The ac is derived from ATR-72 commercial turboprop, and is part of a multi-year contract signed in 2015.
> https://t.co/dgXi9oFn9X https://t.co/U2Qk4S9n0d


I am somehow sure there will be a 4th one as well.
A

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## PakShaheen79

Are these platforms provides PN capabilities to outsmart IN in presence of P8-I and Mig-29Ks?


Apex said:


> Germany's Rheinland @air_service has received a license to deliver a third RAS-72 Sea Eagle MPA to Pakistan. The ac is derived from ATR-72 commercial turboprop, and is part of a multi-year contract signed in 2015.
> https://t.co/dgXi9oFn9X https://t.co/U2Qk4S9n0d


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## DrWatson775

PakShaheen79 said:


> Are these platforms provides PN capabilities to outsmart IN in presence of P8-I and Mig-29Ks?



Detection & situational awareness is the name of the game. Without it, assets cannot be deployed. P8 does the same thing. A carrier group can actually be a liability depending on the situation.


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## Pakistani Fighter

Apex said:


> Germany's Rheinland @air_service has received a license to deliver a third RAS-72 Sea Eagle MPA to Pakistan. The ac is derived from ATR-72 commercial turboprop, and is part of a multi-year contract signed in 2015.
> https://t.co/dgXi9oFn9X https://t.co/U2Qk4S9n0d


Its Air force thread not Navy

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## air marshal

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1246397379756032001


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## khanasifm

Apex said:


> Germany's Rheinland @air_service has received a license to deliver a third RAS-72 Sea Eagle MPA to Pakistan. The ac is derived from ATR-72 commercial turboprop, and is part of a multi-year contract signed in 2015.
> https://t.co/dgXi9oFn9X https://t.co/U2Qk4S9n0d




Thank you for sharing so pn is averaging foker replacements are rate of one every other year

Expecting fleet of at least ~4 mpa plus transport type atr-72 1-2 totaling ~6 like fokers But may go beyond 


Rheinland Air Service has already delivered two RAS 72 Sea Eagle maritime patrol aircraft derived from the ATR-72 commercial turboprop. It is part of a multi-year contract signed in 2015 for equipping the Pakistan Navy with a modern fleet of maritime patrol aircraft. The first aircraft of the fleet was formally handed over in June 2018 and the second aircraft was delivered after it was unveiled to the general public at the Paris Airshow in June 2019.

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## fatman17

PAF Fleet Replacement:

F-6 Farmer (Mig-19) = Replaced
FT-5 Trainer (Mig-15) = Replaced
A-5 Fantan = Replaced
F-7P Skybolt = Almost replaced
----------------
F-7PG = Due for replacement (most likely by JF-17 Block-III)
Mirage-3 & 5 = Due for replacement
F-16A/B = Upgraded

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## Pakistani Fighter

fatman17 said:


> Fantan


Phantom?



fatman17 said:


> F-16A/B = Upgraded


I would say due to upgrade. They need to be upgraded

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## aliyusuf

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> I would say due to upgrade. They need to be upgraded


A more appropriate term would be that they need to be upgraded again with AESA radars ... and not just the MLU-ed Block-15s ... but the Block-52+ as well.

In the past the existing Block-15s underwent MLU TAPE-5 upgrade from 2010 to 2014 i.e. it's sensors and weapons capabilities were brought up to the Block-52+ standards.

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## Avicenna

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Phantom?
> 
> 
> I would say due to upgrade. They need to be upgraded



A-5 or Q-5 Fantan.

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## fatman17

*FC-1/JF-17 Block I/II Fierce Dragon/Thunder*




First revealed in 1995 as the successor of the cancelled Sino-US Super-7 project, *FC-1* (Fighter China-1, max TO weight 12,700kg, max speed M 1.8, service ceiling 16,920m, max external load 3,600kg, ferry range 3,480km, combat radius 1,352km, max g load +8.5) is being developed by CAC/611 Institute (with some technical assistance from Russian Mikoyan OKB) as a "medium tech", light weight fighter/ground attack aircraft carrying a relatively cheap price tag (~$20m). As a fighter designed for export, its main customer is expected to be Pakistan who also shares 50% of the total cost (around $150m). It may also compete with second-hand F-16s to seize the market created by the retirement of Mig-21s, Mirage III and F-5s. Currently powered by a Russian RD-93 turbofan (upgraded RD-33, rated 8,795kg with A/B), it could also be powered by a locally produced WS-13 _Taishan_ once the engine is ready. The A-6 style "V" shaped air-intakes are believed to provide smooth air flow to the engine at high AoA. The fire control radar is thought to be a Chinese KLJ-7V2 X-band multi-functional PD radar (track 10 and engage 2 simultaneously, look-up range 110km for RCS=3m2). A Chinese AESA radar might be installed in later batches. Other electronics include an NVG compatible glass cockpit (EFIS) with three 8"x6" color MFDs, HOTAS, AIFF, 1553B databus and INS/GPS. Weapon load includes both short (PL-5EII/PL-9C/AIM-9M) and medium-range AAMs (SD-10A). LGBs (LT-2/LT-3/GBU-12), GPS/INS guided bombs (LS-6 or MK8x-REK), 500kg dispensors (GB6/TL500), ASMs (C705KD), anti-radiation missiles (Brazilian MAR-1 or Chinese LD-10/CM102) and IRST/laser designation pod (WMD-7 or ASELPOD) can also be carried for ground attack missions. Up to 2 C-802AK AShMs can be carried for anti-ship missions. For high value fixed targets, up to 2 CM-400AKG standoff supersonic ASMs can be carried. For self-protection purpose a KG300G or KG600 ECM pod can be carried underneath centerline pylon. The development schedule of *FC-1* was repeatedly delayed caused by various problems, such as lack of funding, the reluctance of western countries to supply advanced avionics, as well as the revised specifications set by PAF to counter the threat from India's LCAs. These specifications included a true BVR attack capability with active radar guided medium-range AAMs (SD-10A). However, *FC-1*'s prospect in the domestic market had diminished, as PLAAF had committed to the more advanced *J-10* as its new generation fighter along with *J-11* and was reluctant to acquire any *FC-1*s due to its less advanced design and a Russian engine. After lengthy negotiations, Pakistani government finally signed the contract with CATIC and CAC/611 in 1999 and gave the "go ahead" order to the much delayed project. The development was further accelerated after PAF recommitted the project and confirmed *FC-1*'s technical specifications in detail in February 2001. A full-scale mock-up was quickly constructed. A total of 6 prototypes (01-06) were built at CAC. The 01 prototype rolled down the assembly line on May 31, 2003 with two small wing fences. Its maiden flight took place on August 25, 2003. The 03 prototype first flew on April 9, 2004 without the two small wing fences. The 04 prototype was expected to fly by the end of 2005 with full suite of avionics but this was delayed until April 2006 due to several structural modifications. They include new diverterless supersonic inlets (DSI/Bump) similar to those of American F-35 to reduce weight and achieve better performance. A large rectangular-shaped fairing is installed on top of the vertical tail which may house ECM equipment. Its flight control includes a Type 634 quadruplex digital FBW in pitch axis and a duplex analog FBW in roll axis. A UV band MAWS has been installed at the root of the vertical tail to provide rear hemisphere coverage. Two enlarged F/A-18 style LERX are thought to offer higher AOA as well. The first flight of 04 prototype took place on April 28, 2006, and 06 prototype on September 10, 2006. The first two pre-production *JF-17*s (PAF designation Joint Fighter-17 Block I, 00 batch/07-101 & 102) were delivered to Pakistan on March 2, 2007, with the nose-tip pitot tube removed. The 01 batch of 6 *JF-17*s (08-103 -- 08-108) were delivered between March and April 2008. The contract for PAF to acquire another 42 *JF-17*s assembled by PAC was singed on March 7, 2009. The first two (09-109 & 110) were built by CAC. The first *JF-17* (09-111) in the batch of 4 assembled by PAC rolled out on November 23, 2009. The production of the 50 Block I concluded by the end of 2013 with another 50 Block II following in 2014. Besides Pakistan, several Asian, African and South America countries also expressed interest in *FC-1/JF-17*, including Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Azerbaijan, Myanmar, Argentina, Nigeria, Malaysia and Iran. *FC-1* passed design appraisal in December 2009. The first taxiing test of *FC-1* powered by an indigenous WS-13 took place on March 18, 2010, but the results were unsatisfactory. A further upgraded variant (*JF-17* Block II) featuring a detachable IFR probe on the starboard side of the cockpit, similar to that of *J-10*, improved avionics (including secure datalink with *ZDK-03*) and enhanced precision-guided weapon capability has been developed. The aircraft may also fly ESM/ECM missions with a new EW pod. An LED probe light was installed on top of the right engine intake behind the IFR probe to illuminate both the probe and the drogue from the tanker during night operations. The aircraft is to be supported by PAF Il-78MP tanker. The IFR test was believed to have started in 2017. All Block IIs starting from 16-229 and on will have the IFR probe and probe light installed. The Block II variant is expected to be followed by the much improved Block III (see below). It was reported in November 2016 that 611 Institute was studying a semi-stealth concept of *FC-1* (JF-17 Block IV?) to further explore its export potential. The aircraft might have certain stealth features such as a redesigned stealth nose with a one-piece F-22 style canopy. A tandem-seat trainer version (*JF-17B*) has been under development since 2013 (see below). The assembling of the first three *JF-17* Block IIs (S/N 15-2xx) started at PAC in mid-2014. First flight of 15-201 took place on February 9, 2015. A total of 50 were built by the end of 2017, 12 more by 2019. It is expected that all the Block I/II *JF-17*s will be upgraded with the KLJ-7A AESA radar. It was reported in June 2015 that *JF-17* secured its first export contract from an Asian customer which turned out to be Myanmar. The $560m contract could involve an initial batch of 16 aircraft. A recent image (July 2016) suggested that the 04 prototype has been wearing a new blue color scheme based upon customer's requirements. The first *JF-17M* (Block II standard) had its maiden flight at CAC on June 13, 2017, featuring a blue/gray camouflage and a color LED landing light on the front landing gear similar to that onboard *JF-17B*. However the aircraft appears to lack the IFR capability. It was reported in September 2016 that Nigerian AF has decided to acquire *JF-17*. The initial batch of 3 *JF-17N* is expected to be delivered in November 2020. All three (2P-60 to 2P-62?) were speculated to have been built by early 2020. A recent news (December 2017) indicated that *JF-17* Block III entered the preliminary design stage in October 2017. A recent image (October 2018) indicated that the first batch of 5 *JF-17M*s (S/N 1701-1705) were delivered to Myanmar Air Force, which has become the second customer of the aircraft.
_- Last Updated 3/27/20_

*

**JF-17B Fierce Dragon/Thunder*



This tandem-seat trainer version was developed at the request of Pakistani AF, which also pre-ordered the first prototype. *JF-17B* is believed to have been based on the *JF-17* Block II configuration with a IFR probe and an LED probe light installed on the starboard side of the forward fuselage. The aircraft features an enlarged and raised spine which creates additional space for flight instruments and fuel in order to compensate the space occupied by the rear cockpit. The aircraft also features a more swept vertical tail in order to reduce drag and to maintain the center of gravity. A new color LED landing light was installed above the front landing gear. A more powerful cockpit environmental control system has been installed as well to accommodate two pilots. More composite materials have been used in order to reduce the weight and to strengthen the structure. *JF-17B* is reportedly controlled by a new 3-axis digital FBW system replacing the old analog system. The aircraft is equipped with the same KLJ-7 PD fire-control radar and retain the same BVR as well as precision air-to-ground strike capabilities as *JF-17* Block II. As the result *JF-17B* represents a very attractive option to foreign customers with limited budget and resources. Its length is 14.5m, height is 4.6m, TO weight is 9.4t, max external load is 4.6t. A model of the aircraft was first unveiled at the 2013 Paris Airshow by CATIC. The development started officially in 2014. The 01 prototype of *JF-17B* was constructed in December 2016 and conducted its first taxiing test on April 21, 2017. The *JF-17B* BC0001 prototype conducted its maiden flight on April 27, 2017. The *JF-17B* 02 prototype flew for the first time on December 7, 2017. Currently the 01 prototype (17-601) is conducting test flights at PAC with the pitot tube removed from the nose. The 03 prototype (19-603) conducted its maiden flight on August 3rd, 2018. 26 were reportedly ordered by PAF. The first batch of 8 *JF-17B*s (including prototypes) were ready for delivery from PAC in late 2019. A recent image (March 2019) indicated that first customer of *JF-17B* turned out to be the Myanmar Air Force. So far two *JF-17B*s (S/N 1706 & 1707) have been delivered to MAF.
_- Last Updated 12/29/19_

*

**JF-17 Block III Fierce Dragon/Thunder*



The first *JF-17* Block III prototype (#3000) just returned to the CAC airfield from its maiden flight on December 15, 2019. As the latest variant of *JF-17*, Block III carries PAF's ambition to counter IAF's most powerful 3.5th generation fighter Rafale. The aircraft is expected to feature a more powerful engine (WS-13E? 9,000kg class), a new AESA radar developed by NETRI/14th Institute (KLJ-7A, range 170km, track 15, engage 4) or by the 607 Institute (LKF601E, air cooled), HMDS, IRST, upgraded EW suite, new datalink, full authority digital FBW and a variety of air-to-air and air-to-ground guided weapons including PL-10E IIR guided AAM as well as PL-15E active radar homing AAM (using twin launch rails). Additional hard points are installed including ones underneath the engine air intake for ECM or targeting pod. Images of the first flight indicated the *JF-17* Block III prototype features a *J-20* style narrow frame wide-angle holographic HUD (EHUD-2?), a slightly enlarged spine, and new forward MAWS sensors behind the engine air intakes. The rear MAWS sensors were relocated to the EW compartment on top of the vertical tail fin as well. Otherwise the overall aerodynamic configuration remains the unchanged and the aircraft is still powered by the original RD-93 engine. The latest report (February 2020) suggested that the KLJ-7A AESA radar has been chosen by PAF. The latest rumor (March 2020) suggested that the indigenous WS-13E engine is finally ready for mass production.
_- Last Updated 3/27/20_

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## Thorough Pro

https://www.google.com/search?q=a5+...rome..69i57.2363j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8




Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Phantom?
> 
> 
> I would say due to upgrade. They need to be upgraded

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## fatman17

Saiful Azam and his wingman Ihsan Shurdom of the RJAF's 1 Sqn, later commander of the force. 

Saif managed to shoot down an IAF Mystere IVA (Lt Hananya Bola), Mirage IIIC (Capt Gideon Dror) and Vautour (Capt Yitzhak Glantz-Golan) with his Hawker Hunter, in the '67 War. https://t.co/AlZp6EDHZX

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## StormBreaker

fatman17 said:


> Saiful Azam and his wingman Ihsan Shurdom of the RJAF's 1 Sqn, later commander of the force.
> 
> Saif managed to shoot down an IAF Mystere IVA (Lt Hananya Bola), Mirage IIIC (Capt Gideon Dror) and Vautour (Capt Yitzhak Glantz-Golan) with his Hawker Hunter, in the '67 War. https://t.co/AlZp6EDHZX
> View attachment 621390


He went to bangladesh upon partition

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## Trailer23

Never a dull moment...

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## fatman17

*Cheaper Options for Ground Attack*
By
Alan Warnes
-
April 9, 2020



India has been developing the HAL Tejas light combat aircraft for over 30 years and eventually reached full operational capability in February. (Alan Warnes)

 
_*There is now a growing range of ground attack aircraft available now, the purchase of which will not break a nation’s defence budget. *_

*COIN air operations*

Counter insurgency (COIN) air operations in Asia have shaped and been shaped by many campaigns.

The French in Indochina from 1946-1954 and Malayan Emergency from 1948-1960 were among the earliest to witness COIN operations in the region. The United States was heavily involved in the Vietnam War for 20 years until 1975, where unguided bombs, rocket propelled explosives and even napalm were dropped in huge amount on the North Vietnamese Army (NVA) and Viet Cong.

Indonesia’s government took on the East Timor freedom fighters from the mid-70s until the late 90s, while the Philippines still wages a war with Islamic militias in the south of the country. Malaysia too has carried out its own anti-terrorist operations in Sabah in 2013. Thailand has also experience terrorism activities in its southern region.

*Cutting attack costs*
Air power always plays a significant role in trying to defeat insurgents and freedom fighters, known simply as terrorists by their enemy. This has been particularly prevalent in conflicts within Iraq, Afghanistan and latterly Syria against Daesh. The media plays a major role in the dissemination of information with rapid reporting via satellite links, which is why precision guided munitions, targeting pods and EO/IR sensors have been relied upon to avoid collateral damage and the killing of innocent people.

All this can come at a hefty price and politicians as well as military commanders understand there are much cheaper options to using an Lockheed Martin F-16 or Fairchild Republic A-10. Dropping million-dollar precision guided munitions (PGMs) by jets that costs tens of thousands of dollars an hour to operate, just to get a terrorist escaping on a motorbike or a cadre of militia is economically unacceptable these days.

*USAF Programme*
Today, cheaper $30-$40 million aircraft with much lower operational costs yet still armed with high technology such as laser guided rockets is what many in the military are aspiring to operate.

The United States Air Force (USAF) has been searching for a new light, counter-insurgency, ground attack and reconnaissance aircraft since 2009 to fulfil its light attack/armed reconnaissance (LAAR) programme. This has evolved into the OA-X (Light Attack – Experiment) although there has still been no decision, mainly due to political objections.

Why is this so important to Asia? Because if the USAF was to select an aircraft, it could open the way for more orders for the winning manufacturer, particularly in Asia.

The competition sees the Sierra Nevada Corporation/Embraer A-29 Super Tucano face off with the Textron AT-6B Coyote, and the USAF is looking to acquire 24 of them by 2022 for around $1 billion.

The $40 million per aircraft price tag might water the eyes of some Asian air force commanders, but undoubtedly the operational cost would be lower than most fighters as would the new generation weapons.

The Textron Scorpion jet was also evaluated, while Aero Vodochody wanted to participate with its much upgraded L-159 Advanced Light Combat Aircraft (ALCA), the F/A-259 Striker.

However, the US authorities were not interested, preferring a turboprop instead. The Striker has now been abandoned and the future of the Scorpion is also questionable.

According to budget documents, the “the light attack aircraft will provide a deployable and sustainable multirole attack capability, capable of performing a diverse array of attack missions, including but not limited to close air support, armed reconnaissance, strike coordination and reconnaissance, airborne forward air control, and interdiction.”

Many Asian air forces will be looking on at the programme, even if it might be outside their budgets at the moment. The A-29 Super Tucano has been sold to the Indonesian Air Force (16) and Afghanistan (6) and more recently to the Phillippines Air Force (8) but the AT6B Coyote, an attack version of the successful T-6 trainer has never won a defence contract.

While the BAE Hawk has been an effective light attack aircraft in the past for Malaysia (2013 Sabah uprising) and Indonesia (East Timor in 90s), it is now viewed in the region as a more expensive older generation jet. With cheaper more cost effective options available, the BAE’s Hawk’s role in COIN is subjective.

*Local aircraft for local air forces*
*KAI FA-50*
Korea Aerospace Industries (KAI) has found a local solution for the Asian air forces, the fighter attack (FA) or light attack version of the T-50 which is capable of speeds of Mach 1.5 and can carry 4.5 tonnes of armaments. The air forces of South Korea, Philippines and Thailand all operate such aircraft.

Not too surprisingly the biggest operator of the FA-50 is the Republic of Korea Air Force (RoKAF), which operates 60 split across two squadrons – 103 Fighter Squadron of the 8 Fighter Wing at Wonju and 202 Squadron of 16 Fighter Wing at Yecheon Air Base.

They have been delivered in two batches: the first 20 in a contract worth $600 million were delivered during 2013/14 and a second for 40 worth $1 billion followed between 2013 and 2019. At around $30 million per aircraft, it amounts to considerably less investment than a new F-16C/D.





KAI’s FA-50 has found favour with several air forces in the region, and can be used in the jet trainer and fighter attack roles. (KAI)
*Specifications FA-50*

The FA-50 can be armed with Raytheon AIM-9 Sidewinders for self-protection as well as air-to-ground weapons like the AGM-65 Maverick, GBU-38/B Joint Direct Attack Munitions (JDAM), CBU-105 Sensor Fused Weapon (SFW), Mk-82 Low Drag General Purpose (LDGP) bombs and Cluster Bomb Units (CBUs). Mounted internally is a three-barrel 20mm Gatling gun and LAU-3/A 19-tube 2.75 inch rocket launcher, used to fire Folding-Fin Aerial Rockets (FFAR).

*The Philippines Air Force*

The Philippines Air Force signed a $417.95 million contract with KAI for 12 FA-50PH Golden Eagles on March 28, 2014. The first example flew on 19 June, 2015 and were delivered between December 2015 and May 2017. They are operated by the 7th Tactical Fighter Squadron based at Basa Air Base, Pampanga.

*Royal Thai Air Force*

In Thailand, the counter-insurgency role used to be the domain of the Aero Vodochody/Elbit L-39ZA(ART) and Dornier (now Airbus) Alphajet, but these are likely to be replaced by the KAI T-50TH Golden Eagle in the forseeable future. While the T-50THs are to be used as a lead-in fighter trainer for its fleet of F-16s and Saab Gripens, subsequent upgrades are likely to see them flown in the air to ground role.

KAI was awarded a $52.5 million ‘upgrade and modification’ contract on 24 May, 2019 by the Royal Thai Air Force (RTAF) to equip the eventual fleet of 12 T-50THs (only four have been delivered to date) with a radar warning receiver (RWR), countermeasures dispenser systems and a radar system.

The latter is likely to be the Elta EL/M2032 multimode airborne fire control radar orientated for air-to-air, air-to-sea and strike missions. The work should be completed by October 2021.

The fighter attack version of the T-50, is the FA-50 and the objective of the RTAF is clearly to make it multirole – more than just a lead in fighter trainer.

The first flight of a RTAF T-50TH took place on 10 August, 2017 which led to the first two aircraft being delivered in January 2018, with a second pair following in January 2019, while the rest will arrive by 2020. They are located with 401 Squadron based at Takhli.

*Indonesian Air Force*

Indonesia has also acquired 16 T-50I Golden Eagles for flying training purposes but they are believed to have a weapons capability too. They were delivered between September 2013 and 25 January, 2014 to Iswahyudi where they are flown by Skadron Udara 15 of the Indonesian Air Force (TNI-AU). KAI is also marketing the T-50/FA-50 to Malaysia.

*Super Tucano*
While South Korea operates the bigger Boeing F-15K Slam Eagle and F-16s, and Thailand has the F-16 and Gripens to fulfil missions that call for a heavier load, the same cannot be said of the Philippines.

So the Philippine Air Force (PAF) has also ordered a second lighter attack aircraft, the Embraer A-29 Super Tucano which has proved itself in this role across South America, the Middle East and Africa.





The Embraer A-29 Super Tucano is now serving with Indonesia and Afghanistan and will soon be delivered to the Philippines. (Embraer)
*Specifications Super Tucano*

Boasting a maximum load of 3,306lb (1,500kg), means the five hard points can carry general-purpose bombs and guided air-to-ground weapons as well as air-to-air missiles. The two-seat AT-29 is fitted with a FLIR Systems AN/AAQ-22 Star Safire forward-looking electro optical/Infra-red turret under the fuselage for targeting, navigation and target tracking for night attack and surveillance missions. Two wing-mounted 12.7mm machine guns that can fire 1,100 rounds a minute (rpm) come as standard fit.

*Philippine Air Force*

Embraer announced a sale for six A-29B Super Tucanos to the Philippines on 30 November, 2017, worth around $100 million (PHP 4.968 billion) stating that they will be used for “close air support, light attack, surveillance, air-to-air interception and counter-insurgency.” They will be delivered by February 2020 and operated by the 15th Strike Wing which should be moving to Lumbia Airport, Cagayan de Oro between 2019 and 2020.

These new Brazilian turboprops will augment the remaining North American Rockwell OV-10C/M Bronco attack aircraft used by the PAF in strike missions. The USAF issued a request for proposals in July 2018 to dismantle, ship and re-assemble two former NASA OV-10G+s to the PAF, but it is unclear if they ever got there. The Bronco was a popular COIN aircraft in Asia, not just with the US military in Vietnam but with the RTAF which operated them from 1972 to 2004 as well as the PAF.

*Indonesian Air Force*

The TNI-AU operates 15 Super Tucanos, covering two batches of eight delivered between 2012 and 2016. One aircraft was lost in February 2016 with both crew members being killed.

*The Afghan Air Force*

The Afghan Air Force operates 25 A-29 Super Tucanos, which were built at Embraer’s Jacksonville facility in Florida. The Afghan pilots were trained by Sierra Nevada Corporation at Moody AFB, Georgia and the aircraft were delivered to Afghanistan between 2016-2019 as part of a foreign military sale (FMS).

*APKWS laser guided rocket*
One of the most popular new weapons in the light attack role is the BAE Systems 70mm Advanced Precision Kill Weapon System (APKWS) laser guided rocket which has been integrated on the Super Tucano and OV-10 Bronco.

According to BAE, the APKWS can lock onto both moving and stationary targets from more than two miles (3km) away.

At Egypt’s EDEX exhibition last December, a BAE Systems representative told _AMR_, “the APKWS is the most cost effective laser-guided munition in its class and a quarter the price of a Brimstone missile.”

He was keen to stress that its laser guided rocket could only be acquired through FMS, and claims the system had a ‘100 percent success rate in Iraq’ while being operated from Iraqi Air Force Bell IA-407 helicopters.

*Emerging new option*
*Leonardo’s M346FA*
A new emerging threat to the dominance of the FA-50 and Super Tucano in the region is Leonardo’s M346FA. The Italian company, which launched the fighter attack version of the M346 trainer at Paris Air Show in June 2017, is positioning the aircraft as a replacement for 20/30 ton class fighter-bombers in roles like combat air patrol (CAP), quick reaction alert (QRA), close air support (CAS) and COIN.

Emanuele Merlo, senior vice president Trainers Aircraft at Leonardo told the author in late October: “The operational costs of the F-35, Rafale etc are so high that the M346FA with a varied assortment of weapons and its reliable multi-mode radar, would not only be less expensive to operate but save the fatigue life of the established fourth generation fighters.”

Leonardo announced in July that it had won its first M346FA contract, for six aircraft, from an undisclosed customer.

*Looking Around the Region*
Not all light attack options are restricted to the US and South Korea of course. Both Pakistan and Bangladesh operates the Hongdu K-8 Karakoram, and while the primary role is jet training the Chinese jet can be fitted with a cannon pod under the fuselage.





With a podded gun underneath, Pakistan Air Force K-8P Karakorams have a secondary light attack role. (Alan Warnes)
Bangladesh has also acquired 14 Yakovlev-130 Mitten jet trainers which have a secondary light attack role.

India has been developing the Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA) for 30 years now, with around 15Mk1s of an order for 40 flying with 45 Squadon at HAL Bangalore before it relocates to Sulur Air Base in the near future. The jet reached Final Operational Clearance on 20 February, 2019.

Deliveries of the 40Mk1s, including seven dual-seaters continue, while the IAF also requires an additional 73 single-seaters and ten dual seaters in Mk1A configuration. They will feature an enhanced indigenous electronic warfare system and AESA radar.

Taiwan’s Republic of China Air Force (RoCAF) continues to fly the AIDC AT-3 Tzu-Chung not just for flying training but also a secondary light strike role – there are around 45 continuing to serve the RoCAF with most of them serving the Fighter Training Group at Kangshan Air Base.

_by Alan Warnes_

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## fatman17

Thinking of doing a series on what JF-17 Block-II is capable as buzz of Block-3 has turned older brother into some kind of unwanted child [emoji23]. Here is start with a cracker a little less known.

It can fire HOBS missiles like PL-10E & A-Darter off boresight angles without HMD. https://t.co/vaJzixAAZC

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## mingle

fatman17 said:


> Thinking of doing a series on what JF-17 Block-II is capable as buzz of Block-3 has turned older brother into some kind of unwanted child [emoji23]. Here is start with a cracker a little less known.
> 
> It can fire HOBS missiles like PL-10E & A-Darter off boresight angles without HMD. https://t.co/vaJzixAAZC
> View attachment 622298
> View attachment 622299


When we will see blk flying in Pak???


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## fatman17

mingle said:


> When we will see blk flying in Pak???



around 2021-22 if there are no financial delays.

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## fatman17

One thing that I've learned from the air skirmish on 27th February against #India, is that Pakistan's most capable platform, the F-16 lacks dedicated Stand Off Strike capability. PAF can induct Turkish SOM ALCMs on F-16s & JF-17s to enhance their precision stand off capability. https://t.co/50dKan6mVg

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## Haris Ali2140

fatman17 said:


> One thing that I've learned from the air skirmish on 27th February against #India, is that Pakistan's most capable platform, the F-16 lacks dedicated Stand Off Strike capability. PAF can induct Turkish SOM ALCMs on F-16s & JF-17s to enhance their precision stand off capability. https://t.co/50dKan6mVg
> View attachment 622697


That's the biggest drawback of PAF's F-16s. Apart from AAM and some PGMs there is nothing we have. IMO it has more to do with US approval then anything else.


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## Ali_Baba

The USA would not approve the integration of Turkish SOMs to PAF F16s, that is the other problem. USA approval. That is why it is not a good idea for PAF to purchase new F16as due to the limited ability to integrate new weapons that meet your military requirements....

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## Viper27

Ali_Baba said:


> The USA would not approve the integration of Turkish SOMs to PAF F16s, that is the other problem. USA approval. That is why it is not a good idea for PAF to purchase new F16as due to the limited ability to integrate new weapons that meet your military requirements....



That depends on the prevailing circumstances. PAF would still buy used F-16s from anywhere it can as they continue to provide the best bang for the buck. Should we be willing to pay for any upgrades, some give and take is possible on our requirements for weapons integration. Not possible if we demand that US should partially finance our equipment & customise it to our requirements as well.


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## airomerix

Why does every online source still say that No.16 squadron is stationed at Peshawar? 

It has been at Minhas for a couple of years now.

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## Blacklight

airomerix said:


> Why does every online source still say that No.16 squadron is stationed at Peshawar?
> 
> It has been at Minhas for a couple of years now.


Because online sources are not intel agencies?

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## airomerix

Haris Ali2140 said:


> That's the biggest drawback of PAF's F-16s. Apart from AAM and some PGMs there is nothing we have. IMO it has more to do with US approval then anything else.



Same goes for AGM-88 HARMs. They never gave us those despite our repeated requests. 

They gave us AGM-84's for P-3's but never released the codes for F-16s.

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## Safriz

fatman17 said:


> One thing that I've learned from the air skirmish on 27th February against #India, is that Pakistan's most capable platform, the F-16 lacks dedicated Stand Off Strike capability. PAF can induct Turkish SOM ALCMs on F-16s & JF-17s to enhance their precision stand off capability. https://t.co/50dKan6mVg
> View attachment 622697


Raad-2 has been reduced in dimensions to fit underneath JF-17.
As for F-16, obviously uncle SAM will religiously Brown nose India and wont allow any such capabilities on F-16.

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## Zarvan



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## nomi007



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## fatman17

From the sister squadron of the Royal Air Force. 

A condolence message for Nauman. [emoji3590][emoji3590][emoji255][emoji255] https://t.co/wypK2j9pxa

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## fatman17

Some sources saying in Facebook that some of the PAF K-8s being equipped with AIM-9. Is that true? @schaheid https://t.co/hEDN7ixhZR

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## fatman17

Why would they? 
Belly gun and IR rockets for CAS seems justified


fatman17 said:


> Some sources saying in Facebook that some of the PAF K-8s being equipped with AIM-9. Is that true? @schaheid https://t.co/hEDN7ixhZR
> View attachment 624310


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## Pakistani Fighter

fatman17 said:


> One thing that I've learned from the air skirmish on 27th February against #India, is that Pakistan's most capable platform, the F-16 lacks dedicated Stand Off Strike capability. PAF can induct Turkish SOM ALCMs on F-16s & JF-17s to enhance their precision stand off capability. https://t.co/50dKan6mVg
> View attachment 622697


Doesn't matter. They are good air superiority fighters. We have enough Thunders and Mirages for Ground Strikes

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## khanasifm

fatman17 said:


> Some sources saying in Facebook that some of the PAF K-8s being equipped with AIM-9. Is that true? @schaheid https://t.co/hEDN7ixhZR
> View attachment 624310




Nothing new here this is old news k-8 were always armed with winders plus light attack role


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## untitled

fatman17 said:


> Belly gun and IR rockets for CAS seems justified


Most likely the sidewinders are for intercepting low speed targets such as drones

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## TsAr

fatman17 said:


> Why would they?
> Belly gun and IR rockets for CAS seems justified


for training purposes, I don't see them in active combat.

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## GriffinsRule

fatman17 said:


> Some sources saying in Facebook that some of the PAF K-8s being equipped with AIM-9. Is that true? @schaheid https://t.co/hEDN7ixhZR
> View attachment 624310


They have had the capability to carry AIM-9s since inception. Its nothing new.


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## fatman17

JF-17 #Thunder, REKs which converts Mk-80 series general purpose bombs into satellite/inertial guided SOWs. You don’t need to fly on top of enemy can fire 50-60 km away. This will be great for #Nigeria AF which can eliminate high value targets of Boko Haram with precision strikes https://t.co/ivivRCG34l

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## fatman17

F-7P/PG formed backbone of Pakistan Air Force in our testing times when even hope was too much of luxury to have. Trained a whole generation of pilots and still doing it. #Tribute https://t.co/bbN9tixK3b

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## ghazi52

Sargodha

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## BHarwana

full house.

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## fatman17

Fatima leading from the front

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## khanasifm

Paf still fly with rear aspect aim-9ps or aim-9P model sidewinder V4 onwards were also converted to all aspect by putting L model seeker

mostly P model are seen on mirages in a2g roles while a2a role ir with radar also carry all aspect Lima model winders


Hopefully with 5g aam decision will lead to the end of rear aspect winders



fatman17 said:


> Fatima leading from the front
> View attachment 625368
> View attachment 625369




All are same rank FO or 1st LT Just a course pic


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## Ultima Thule

khanasifm said:


> Paf still fly with rear aspect aim-9ps or aim-9P model sidewinder V4 onwards were also converted to all aspect by putting L model seeker


I just thought we have latest M version of sidewinder also a version before the X version


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## Adam_Khan

fatman17 said:


> Fatima leading from the front
> View attachment 625368
> View attachment 625369




Hope that she isn't in ground branches by now.



seven0seven said:


> I just thought we have latest M version of sidewinder also a version before the X version




AIM.9M's are only used by F.16s, Lima versions are used by ROSE 1 Mirages and F.7s while the P version is only used by the radar less mirages.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Fatima looking mean bro damn!!


fatman17 said:


> Fatima leading from the front
> View attachment 625368
> View attachment 625369

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## fatman17

AIM-120-C5 #AMRAAM is the top BVRAAM in arsenal of #PAF with range of 100km+. It has speed of Mach 4 with midcourse correction/active radar homing. PAF has around 498 units

Its a fire & forget weapon. Informally called “Slammer” launched by NATO pilots using brevity code “FOX 3” https://t.co/wvySryiEyV

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## nomi007

Finally, Y-20 has been reached









If anyone have videos please share

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## nomi007

The Chinese army sends material aid to Pakistan. Part of the freight was provided by a Y-20 registered *20044*, from the 13th transport division of PLAAF. This is the first time that this Chinese transport aircraft has left China.








Hope PAF officials will examine y-20, for PAF future transport fleet.

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## Bossman

nomi007 said:


> The Chinese army sends material aid to Pakistan. Part of the freight was provided by a Y-20 registered *20044*, from the 13th transport division of PLAAF. This is the first time that this Chinese transport aircraft has left China.
> View attachment 626808
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hope PAF officials will examine y-20, for PAF future transport fleet.


Has been in Pakistan before.


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## LKJ86

Bossman said:


> Has been in Pakistan before.


It is the first time for Y-20 to go abroad.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1253661983712264194

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## Dazzler

LKJ86 said:


> It is the first time for Y-20 to go abroad.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1253661983712264194



Yep, nice option for PAF's future cargo and airlift plans.

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## PakFactor

nomi007 said:


> The Chinese army sends material aid to Pakistan. Part of the freight was provided by a Y-20 registered *20044*, from the 13th transport division of PLAAF. This is the first time that this Chinese transport aircraft has left China.
> View attachment 626808
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hope PAF officials will examine y-20, for PAF future transport fleet.



Don't understand for Heavy Transport why we can't buy this? And modify it to our needs.

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## Ultima Thule

PakFactor said:


> Don't understand for Heavy Transport why we can't buy this? And modify it to our needs.


WHERE IS $$$$


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## khanasifm

LKJ86 said:


> It is the first time for Y-20 to go abroad.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1253661983712264194




Again engine is a problem still russian and chines engine still not adopted 

needs a Morden better fuel efficient engine than Russian 60s era

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## fatman17

Project AZM

In tandem with China, Pakistan is reportedly developing a 5th generation stealth fighter. Like Pakistan’s previous venture with China, the JF-17, the AZM will likely be largely dependent on Chinese technology and assistance, though the final airframes may be assembled in Pakistan. 

China’s FC-31 stealth fightermay be a starting place for the Project AZM idea. It is lightweight, compact, and presumably on the cheaper (and less capable) side when compared to China’s Chengdu J-20. 


A home-grown stealth fighter would be a prestige win for Pakistan, though the likely focus on cost-reduction raises questions about the airframe’s final capabilities. Still, developing a stealth fighter would be an impressive feat for a country with a defense budget under $8 billion. 

Proliferating Capabilities

The proliferation of stealth technologies is the next frontier of weapon control regimes and may well rule the twenty-first-century.

Caleb Larson holds a Master of Public Policy degree from the Willy Brandt School of Public Policy. He lives in Berlin and writes on U.S. and Russian foreign and defense policy, German politics, and culture.

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## SD 10

khanasifm said:


> Again engine is a problem still russian and chines engine still not adopted
> 
> needs a Morden better fuel efficient engine than Russian 60s era


y20 uses Russian engine??


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## LKJ86

khanasifm said:


> Again engine is a problem still russian and chines engine still not adopted


Y-20 is using WS-18 engines.

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## Aryeih Leib

Any news about it ?

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## Armchair

PakFactor said:


> Don't understand for Heavy Transport why we can't buy this? And modify it to our needs.



Because of something called CPFH (Cost Per Flight Hour).

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## Ahmet Pasha

Ooh we dont have need. Ohh we don't have economies of scale. Ohhh supply lines/logistics.
Usual bahaney bazi.


Dazzler said:


> Yep, nice option for PAF's future cargo and airlift plans.





Aryeih Leib said:


> Any news about it ?
> View attachment 627814


These will also be sitting somewhere in AMARG after production

Phir hamein soybean mile ga in return.

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## fatman17

Just since I urgently needed to something very much different to all the regular work today[emoji20]and there was once again a post concerning the Block 3 would have a greater ground clearance (IMO not), bigger wings (not visible from this image, but IMO not), wider engine (nope) ... https://t.co/GPnF5Gu0JT

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## khanasifm

LKJ86 said:


> Y-20 is using WS-18 engines.




Still Russian engine of Il-76/78 Chinese version still not in production aircraft

last pic was on test aircraft one out of four Engine was WS-18

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_aircraft_engines


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## fatman17

Tribute to Wg Cdr Nauman Akram shaheed in #PAF 's ‘’Second to None” magazine #PakistanAirForce #F16FightingFalcon #Sherdils https://t.co/J7DmnbFvHU

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## fatman17

Congratulations to Rahul Dev on his selection as GD Pilot in Pakistan Air Force (PAF). He hails from a remote village of Tharparkar, Sindh. All our love and prayers for him. [emoji177] https://t.co/3swnqJI9Cr

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## mingle

fatman17 said:


> Congratulations to Rahul Dev on his selection as GD Pilot in Pakistan Air Force (PAF). He hails from a remote village of Tharparkar, Sindh. All our love and prayers for him. [emoji177] https://t.co/3swnqJI9Cr
> View attachment 628991


Wish Him all his best

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## CHI RULES

Aoa my children like to collect PAF fighter jet models, they got few from a PAF souvenir shop at Nathia Galli but last time it was found closed. Can any one please guide me is it possible to get the models on line.


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## ziaulislam

fatman17 said:


> Just since I urgently needed to something very much different to all the regular work today[emoji20]and there was once again a post concerning the Block 3 would have a greater ground clearance (IMO not), bigger wings (not visible from this image, but IMO not), wider engine (nope) ... https://t.co/GPnF5Gu0JT
> View attachment 628341


No enginw upgrade is disapointing..rd93ma would have given 10-15% more dry thrust, range and endurance ..rest was pretty much expected ..
Raad will be redesigned once mirages are retired for thr thunder


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## MastanKhan

Safriz said:


> Raad-2 has been reduced in dimensions to fit underneath JF-17.
> As for F-16, obviously uncle SAM will religiously Brown nose India and wont allow any such capabilities on F-16.



Hi,

With two perfect platforms in place---Mirage 3/5's and JF17---there is no need for the F 16 to be equipped for that---.

And then to top it off we will have to pay 2 to 3 times the price of the foreign manufactured SOW---.

Doesn't make sense---when there are around and over 150 aircraft capable of using standoff weapons---then why add the F16's---.

Adding F16 to the list means using it below its true capabilities---specially when a close to 50 years old mirage can do that job---.

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## fatman17

Try paf museum Web site


CHI RULES said:


> Aoa my children like to collect PAF fighter jet models, they got few from a PAF souvenir shop at Nathia Galli but last time it was found closed. Can any one please guide me is it possible to get the models on line.

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## Talon

CHI RULES said:


> Aoa my children like to collect PAF fighter jet models, they got few from a PAF souvenir shop at Nathia Galli but last time it was found closed. Can any one please guide me is it possible to get the models on line.


If you are from Karachi then PAF museum otherwise Mian Shields or Sethi Printers in Sargodha.


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## CHI RULES

Hodor said:


> If you are from Karachi then PAF museum otherwise Mian Shields or Sethi Printers in Sargodha.


Sir any online store pls, neither from Karachi nor from Sargodha. Thks

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## fatman17

Try paf falcons website


CHI RULES said:


> Sir any online store pls, neither from Karachi nor from Sargodha. Thks

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## CHI RULES

fatman17 said:


> Try paf falcons website


Sir your kind suggestions well noted thks.


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## Talon

CHI RULES said:


> Sir your kind suggestions well noted thks.


Online stores including Paf Falcons charge too much than the original price.Sethi and Mian usually provide courier services.

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## fatman17

Pakistan Aeronautic Complex ''Kamra'', where the JF-17 is built. https://t.co/p2T2iJqRAB

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## fatman17

Long Live #Pakistan #Turkey Brotherhood[emoji1250][emoji1191]

A Cargo plane with medical equipment took off from #Ankara for Pakistan[emoji1191]to help the brother country to face the #Covid19 #coronavirus https://t.co/m544KH51im

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## fatman17

60 years ago Gary Powers was shot down flying the U-2 spyplane. In this RAeS lecture podcast - noted U-2 expert & aviation journalist Chris Pocock @UKdragonChris provides a fascinating insight into this #ColdWar incident #avgeek https://t.co/zbCaUz6HqN. https://t.co/6di8wuFpUb

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## Dazzler

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1258408989689368577

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## Pakistani Fighter

Dazzler said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1258408989689368577


Is it new?

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## Bossman

It’s not For electronic warfare. Used by ISI for transportation.

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## Dazzler

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Is it new?



We have our own JSTARS

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## Pakistani Fighter

Dazzler said:


> We have our own JSTARS


Wow I read somewhere that Indians were going for that jet to US. I was kinda worried. Never knew we had them too


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## Haris Ali2140

Bossman said:


> It’s not For electronic warfare. Used by ISI for transportation.


The name " EYE 77" suggest otherwise.

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## Bossman

Haris Ali2140 said:


> The name " EYE 77" suggest otherwise.


Why make it obvious. Lack of antennas suggests no EW role.

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## Trailer23

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Is it new?


Nope.

*Research:*
We got it between Summer of 2015 to Summer of 2016.

Prior to this, it was owned by *Chartright Air*, a Charter Company (https://chartright.com/)





​

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## fatman17

Thunder gearing towards a dedicated EW role. https://t.co/vtyF02HxYI

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## Tps43

Dazzler said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1258408989689368577


This bombardier aint of army or paf

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## Trailer23

fatman17 said:


> Thunder gearing towards a dedicated EW role. https://t.co/vtyF02HxYI
> View attachment 630578


Any info in regard to the B-Variant testing for the EW role?


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## fatman17

Ongoing


Trailer23 said:


> Any info in regard to the B-Variant testing for the EW role?

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## ghazi52

Gilgit

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## Blacklight

Tps43 said:


> This bombardier aint of army or paf


Is it even Pakistani? If so who?

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## Cookie Monster

Dazzler said:


> We have our own JSTARS


This jet seems too small to serve the role of a JSTAR like aircraft...
...doesn't seem like there would be enough room to fit all the electronics and sensors.


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## Scorpiooo

Trailer23 said:


> Nope.
> 
> *Research:*
> We got it between Summer of 2015 to Summer of 2016.
> 
> Prior to this, it was owned by *Chartright Air*, a Charter Company (https://chartright.com/)
> 
> View attachment 630527
> ​


Is it for transport/VIP or some EW role ?


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## Trailer23

Scorpiooo said:


> Is it for transport/VIP or some EW role ?


My research doesn't cover CONFIDENTIAL information. Try asking the big guns.

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## ghazi52



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## Tps43

Blacklight said:


> Is it even Pakistani? If so who?


Pakistani, ISI

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## Blacklight

Tps43 said:


> Pakistani, ISI


Seriously bro....!


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## Trailer23

Hi guys,
The Mothers Day video from PAF showed a lady Squadron Leader behind the controls of an interesting cockpit which I haven't been able to identify. The yoke in the Flight Deck seems very...Russian.

It isn't the Saab 2000 or the Y-8. It isn't the Falcon 20, nor the Gulfstream G450. It isn't the CASA CN-235 either. And it isn't that Bombardier Challenger 605 (EYE 77) that we've been discussing - recently.

Any takers?














@araz @airomerix @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Knuckles @Adam_Khan @GriffinsRule @ziaulislam

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## airomerix

Trailer23 said:


> Hi guys,
> The Mothers Day video from PAF showed a lady Squadron Leader behind the controls of an interesting cockpit which I haven't been able to identify. The yoke in the Flight Deck seems very...Russian.
> 
> It isn't the Saab 2000 or the Y-8. It isn't the Falcon 20, nor the Gulfstream G450. It isn't the CASA CN-235 either. And it isn't that Bombardier Challenger 605 (EYE 77) that we've been discussing - recently.
> 
> Any takers?
> 
> View attachment 631145
> 
> 
> View attachment 631149
> 
> 
> View attachment 631150​
> @araz @airomerix @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Knuckles @Adam_Khan @GriffinsRule @ziaulislam



S/L Fatima 

Phenom 100
41 Sqn.

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## Trailer23

airomerix said:


> S/L Fatima
> 
> Phenom 100
> 41 Sqn.


Wha....

Lightning speed response. Almost like a...


Malumaat jahaz ke kithi, par bhai nay larki ka naam bhe bata deya.

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## Falcon26

airomerix said:


> S/L Fatima
> 
> Phenom 100
> 41 Sqn.



Yes, it’s the embraer 500 Phenom 100

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## airomerix

Trailer23 said:


> Wha....
> 
> Lightning speed response. Almost like a...
> View attachment 631151​Malumaat jahaz ke kithi, par bhai nay larki ka naam bhe bata deya.



haha. Bas jee. 2 he cheezein ki zindigi mein. Jahaz aur larkian. 

BTW, she ejected from F-7 during OCU. Currently, she's flying Y-12s with 41 sqn.

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## Trailer23

airomerix said:


> haha. Bas jee. 2 he cheezein ki zindigi mein. Jahaz aur larkian.
> 
> BTW, she ejected from F-7 during OCU. Currently, she's flying Y-12s with 41 sqn.


Sahe kh-rahay hain, bus wohe 2 cheezein zindigi may chaye hain. Although ab tou sirf jahaz he rh-gaey. Hamara MLU nahe ho sakta. Sirf MLC (Mid-Life Crisis) ho sakta hai.

As for the lil' lady. If she 'Ejected' from a F-7, she did her self favor. Although, i'm not sure if the Y-12 is a step up. I can't imagine anyone wanting to fly that ugly bird.

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## airomerix

Trailer23 said:


> Sahe kh-rahay hain, bus wohe 2 cheezein zindigi may chaye hain. Although ab tou sirf jahaz he rh-gaey. Hamara MLU nahe ho sakta. Sirf MLC (Mid-Life Crisis) ho sakta hai.
> 
> As for the lil' lady. If she 'Ejected' from a F-7, she did her self favor. Although, i'm not sure if the Y-12 is a step up. I can't imagine anyone wanting to fly that ugly bird.



Losing a fighter rating is never a step up. Even if you get C-130's which is the most favorite in combat support role. 

She's currently doing a captain course at Y-12. Very soon she will command an aircraft of her own. Also, aircraft like Y-12, C-130 open doors for pilots to airlines due to 4 engine ratings.

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## Trailer23

airomerix said:


> Also, aircraft like Y-12, C-130 open doors for pilots to airlines due to 4 engine ratings.


I know. I've known quite a few from my stint with Shaheen Air and a charter company in Dubai called Eastern SkyJets.

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## Falcon26

airomerix said:


> haha. Bas jee. 2 he cheezein ki zindigi mein. Jahaz aur larkian.
> 
> BTW, she ejected from F-7 during OCU. Currently, she's flying Y-12s with 41 sqn.



Roughly how many female combat pilots does PAF has?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Falcon26 said:


> Roughly how many female combat pilots does PAF has?


You know, I noticed a lot of the ones who were shown as GD(P) trainees are now non-fighter flying or in other areas (e.g., AEW&C). 

@airomerix are numbers in decline, or is the inflow of female fighter flying trainees consistent each year?

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## mingle

airomerix said:


> haha. Bas jee. 2 he cheezein ki zindigi mein. Jahaz aur larkian.
> 
> BTW, she ejected from F-7 during OCU. Currently, she's flying Y-12s with 41 sqn.


I don't know PAF will retire these widow makers F7s

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## Adam_Khan

Trailer23 said:


> Hi guys,
> The Mothers Day video from PAF showed a lady Squadron Leader behind the controls of an interesting cockpit which I haven't been able to identify. The yoke in the Flight Deck seems very...Rusian.
> 
> It isn't the Saab 2000 or the Y-8. It isn't the Falcon 20, nor the Gulfstream G450. It isn't the CASA CN-235 either. And it isn't that Bombardier Challenger 605 (EYE 77) that we've been discussing - recently.
> 
> Any takers?
> 
> View attachment 631145
> 
> 
> View attachment 631149
> 
> 
> View attachment 631150​
> @araz @airomerix @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Knuckles @Adam_Khan @GriffinsRule @ziaulislam




@airomerix is correct, it's a Phenom and the squadron has quite a few female pilots by now.
I don't seem to grasp the logic behind sending women to fighter OCU's when none have actually gone beyond that point and served in fighter squadrons,it's sad to be honest.


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## airomerix

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> You know, I noticed a lot of the ones who were shown as GD(P) trainees are now non-fighter flying or in other areas (e.g., AEW&C).
> 
> @airomerix are numbers in decline, or is the inflow of female fighter flying trainees consistent each year?



Yes, the numbers are definitely in decline. We have learned our lessons. The routine of a GdP is not well suited for a woman in our culture. Requires long hours, over night duties. It is essentially how we prepare them for war like situation every day. We cannot necessarily adjust the roaster to accommodate females as this luxury is simply not there in wars. 

Furthermore, females typically ask for alot of leaves due to medical/biological reasons. It again hampers the training and operational schedule. As we wouldnt want to send up a female with her back hurting. Alot goes into it. It's a long debate and i dont want to be tagged a misogynist as i'm merely stating the learnings. 

Lastly, PAF does not have a strict quota for females to join GDP. If they all qualify, good. If not, no one gets the wings. 



Falcon26 said:


> Roughly how many female combat pilots does PAF has?



I'm not sure. I think only one is left on F-7s. There is none on F-16s, JF-17s and Mirages.



Adam_Khan said:


> @airomerix is correct, it's a Phenom and the squadron has quite a few female pilots by now.
> I don't seem to grasp the logic behind sending women to fighter OCU's when none have actually gone beyond that point and served in fighter squadrons,it's sad to be honest.



OCU is very tough to qualify. It is commendable that they make it past FCU atleast, which on in its own is very difficult and disqualifies more than 60% of the batch to slow flying, log sqn,'s and other arms. 

But yes, sadly, none of the females have qualified for even a pair leader. Let alone, becoming a section leader/flight cmdr and going upto OC.

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## Raider 21

airomerix said:


> Losing a fighter rating is never a step up. Even if you get C-130's which is the most favorite in combat support role.
> 
> She's currently doing a captain course at Y-12. Very soon she will command an aircraft of her own. Also, aircraft like Y-12, C-130 open doors for pilots to airlines due to 4 engine ratings.


Some officers are better as transport pilots as opposed to being mediocre fighter pilots. Same goes the other way around, seen plenty successful fighter jocks struggle to grasp basic airliner flying concepts.



Adam_Khan said:


> @airomerix is correct, it's a Phenom and the squadron has quite a few female pilots by now.
> I don't seem to grasp the logic behind sending women to fighter OCU's when none have actually gone beyond that point and served in fighter squadrons,it's sad to be honest.


That's how the system is. The OCU course flying can't differentiate between males and females, same goes for the jets. They do well, they'll pass ahead. They don't, other streams follow. Yes some skirmishes do exist with some instructors but it is all about performance and potential.

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## airomerix

Knuckles said:


> Some officers are better as transport pilots as opposed to being mediocre fighter pilots. Same goes the other way around, seen plenty successful fighter jocks struggle to grasp basic airliner flying concepts.
> 
> 
> That's how the system is. The OCU course flying can't differentiate between males and females, same goes for the jets. They do well, they'll pass ahead. They don't, other streams follow. Yes some skirmishes do exist with some instructors but it is all about performance and potential.



True. 

However, i've heard quite alot of stories of these 'skirmishes' between good pilots and their instructors over petty issues. I know a pilot who was sidelined because he took a shot of the sqn flt cmdr during a 2v2. He was roasted because he took a shot of a senior sqn ldr as a flg officer. 

I know another one who used to bring in ideas of air combat off the internet from the literature available from ex USAF pilots and other sources, he was roasted too because the instructor's ego was hurt. 

CCS is known for the clash of ego's. I met someone who is in Qatar Airways right now. He gave CCS instructors a run for their money during engagements. Top notch material! Was a Sher Afghan had he completed the last two missions. But in the process, developed hostility with OC CCS. He was chewed out and sent to AHQ. Never wanted to fly again despite Sohail Aman's repeated requests. Left the Air force for Airblue and now he's in Qatar.

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## Raider 21

airomerix said:


> True.
> 
> However, i've heard quite alot of stories of these 'skirmishes' between good pilots and their instructors over petty issues. I know a pilot who was sidelined because he took a shot of the sqn flt cmdr during a 2v2. He was roasted because he took a shot of a senior sqn ldr as a flg officer.
> 
> I know another one who used to bring in ideas of air combat off the internet from the literature available from ex USAF pilots and other sources, he was roasted too because the instructor's ego was hurt.
> 
> CCS is known for the clash of ego's. I met someone who is in Qatar Airways right now. He gave CCS instructors a run for their money during engagements. Top notch material! Was a Sher Afghan had he completed the last two missions. But in the process, developed hostility with OC CCS. He was chewed out and sent to AHQ. Never wanted to fly again despite Sohail Aman's repeated requests. Left the Air force for Airblue and now he's in Qatar.


My dad experienced similar fights, one notably during the evaluation of the ATLIS pod in the 90s on the F-16.

I've heard of the last one. Here's another bad one. An OCU IP suspended some officers from fighters, turns out the IP had a bad habit of failing students for nothing. IP sacked, the unfortunate students under them ended up moving to helicopters.

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## Adam_Khan

Knuckles said:


> Some officers are better as transport pilots as opposed to being mediocre fighter pilots. Same goes the other way around, seen plenty successful fighter jocks struggle to grasp basic airliner flying concepts.
> 
> 
> That's how the system is. The OCU course flying can't differentiate between males and females, same goes for the jets. They do well, they'll pass ahead. They don't, other streams follow. Yes some skirmishes do exist with some instructors but it is all about performance and potential.




I've personally seen guys who are more keen on going to transport/ AWACS just because it improves their chance of getting into airline flying later on and these days quite a few of them think along these lines.

You're right that they can't change the OCU curriculum but my point is that if not a single female pilot has gone beyond that stage then shouldn't sending them to OCU's for fighter aircraft be stopped. 

Ps,from what I've heard the induction rate of women in GDP branch is already falling.

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## Raider 21

Adam_Khan said:


> I've personally seen guys who are more keen on going to transport/ AWACS just because it improves their chance of getting into airline flying later on and these days quite a few of them think along these lines.
> 
> You're right that they can't change the OCU curriculum but my point is that if not a single female pilot has gone beyond that stage then shouldn't sending them to OCU's for fighter aircraft be stopped.
> 
> Ps,from what I've heard the induction rate of women in GDP branch is already falling.


I'd say negative on that because you never know if a female pilot trainee passes and exceeds her male counterparts at some point.

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## Adam_Khan

Knuckles said:


> I'd say negative on that because you never know if a female pilot trainee passes and exceeds her male counterparts at some point.



In our society I doubt that's going to happen anytime soon,not that I'm being a misogynist though. There was one who won the sword of honor, heard her husband was an Army Captain and because of social pressure had to join ATC.

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## Talon

Falcon26 said:


> Roughly how many female combat pilots does PAF has?


None



Adam_Khan said:


> @airomerix is correct, it's a Phenom and the squadron has quite a few female pilots by now.
> I don't seem to grasp the logic behind sending women to fighter OCU's when none have actually gone beyond that point and served in fighter squadrons,it's sad to be honest.


S/L Ayesha Farooq and F/O Maryam both qualified OCU, unfortunately we lost Maryam and Ayesha was in slow flying last time I checked.

OCU isnt easy,even 3-4 male pilots of each course fail in it, sometimes more.



airomerix said:


> True.
> 
> However, i've heard quite alot of stories of these 'skirmishes' between good pilots and their instructors over petty issues. I know a pilot who was sidelined because he took a shot of the sqn flt cmdr during a 2v2. He was roasted because he took a shot of a senior sqn ldr as a flg officer.
> 
> I know another one who used to bring in ideas of air combat off the internet from the literature available from ex USAF pilots and other sources, he was roasted too because the instructor's ego was hurt.
> 
> CCS is known for the clash of ego's. I met someone who is in Qatar Airways right now. He gave CCS instructors a run for their money during engagements. Top notch material! Was a Sher Afghan had he completed the last two missions. But in the process, developed hostility with OC CCS. He was chewed out and sent to AHQ. Never wanted to fly again despite Sohail Aman's repeated requests. Left the Air force for Airblue and now he's in Qatar.


Couldn't say better.If you want to excel in the Air Force just do Jee Sir and dont bring up creative ideas unless you are very senior.

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## Pakistani Fighter

airomerix said:


> F-7


Was it saved or crashed?



airomerix said:


> I think only one is left on F-7s. There is none on F-16s, JF-17s and Mirages.





Hodor said:


> None








BTW Why do PAF have qouta for females? Why don't they compete in similar tests to males?
@Adam_Khan


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## Raider 21

airomerix said:


> True.
> 
> However, i've heard quite alot of stories of these 'skirmishes' between good pilots and their instructors over petty issues. I know a pilot who was sidelined because he took a shot of the sqn flt cmdr during a 2v2. He was roasted because he took a shot of a senior sqn ldr as a flg officer.
> 
> I know another one who used to bring in ideas of air combat off the internet from the literature available from ex USAF pilots and other sources, he was roasted too because the instructor's ego was hurt.
> 
> *CCS is known for the clash of ego's. I met someone who is in Qatar Airways right now. He gave CCS instructors a run for their money during engagements. Top notch material! Was a Sher Afghan had he completed the last two missions. But in the process, developed hostility with OC CCS. He was chewed out and sent to AHQ. Never wanted to fly again despite Sohail Aman's repeated requests. Left the Air force for Airblue and now he's in Qatar.*


I got a scenario from 1993. 2 v 4 CCS. 2 Vipers, 4 Mirages. One of the Vipers developed engine problems and egressed. The sole Viper (lead) shot all 4 Mirages. Imagine how the debriefing was, I'll leave that up to you to think as it was a Sqn Ldr against the judgment of senior staff pilots (by rank, not flying hours).

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## Armchair

Knuckles said:


> I got a scenario from 1993. 2 v 4 CCS. 2 Vipers, 4 Mirages. One of the Vipers developed engine problems and egressed. The sole Viper (lead) shot all 4 Mirages. Imagine how the debriefing was, I'll leave that up to you to think as it was a Sqn Ldr against the judgment of senior staff pilots (by rank, not flying hours).



Shameful to read the stories here. This is why PAF should not be allowed to keep things in the dark. Pakistan deserves better. PAF is not a fiefdom for anyone, if competence is not honoured, no amount of feel good stories will help PAF win the next air war.

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## Maxpane

thats shame ful why dnt they change their culture

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## Talon

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Was it saved or crashed?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BTW Why do PAF have qouta for females? Why don't they compete in similar tests to males?
> @Adam_Khan


Yeah I know her,she recently cleared her FCU and I don't know if she has even flown the F-7 yet or not,even if she is flying it she is not a fighter pilot untill she passes OCU and becomes an Ops pilot which will take 1 to 1.5 years from her current stage.

How can an aircraft be saved if its pilot ejects? AutoBot hy ya F7?

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## Raider 21

Armchair said:


> Shameful to read the stories here. This is why PAF should not be allowed to keep things in the dark. Pakistan deserves better. PAF is not a fiefdom for anyone, if competence is not honoured, no amount of feel good stories will help PAF win the next air war.


It is not to say it this is normal.But highlighting that it is not uncommon. And it has a lot do with the cultural aspect, which won't change overnight,

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## Trailer23

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Was it saved or crashed?


Nahe yaar. Right before ejecting, just switch on the ILS Approch. The jet took over from there  .


airomerix said:


> I'm not sure. I think only one is left on F-7s. There is none on F-16s, JF-17s and Mirages.


Once the B-Variant becomes fully Operational (assigned to Squadrons) - and if an EW role is on the books, they could be great Rios.

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## airomerix

Hodor said:


> Couldn't say better.If you want to excel in the Air Force just do Jee Sir and dont bring up creative ideas unless you are very senior.



Organizations hire fresh talent for ideas and its the other way round here *facepalm*



Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Was it saved or crashed?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BTW Why do PAF have qouta for females? Why don't they compete in similar tests to males?
> @Adam_Khan



Fatima's aircraft went into a flat spin and she ejected at 6000 AGL after being unable to recover. Jahaz kahan bachna tha.



Knuckles said:


> I got a scenario from 1993. 2 v 4 CCS. 2 Vipers, 4 Mirages. One of the Vipers developed engine problems and egressed. The sole Viper (lead) shot all 4 Mirages. Imagine how the debriefing was, I'll leave that up to you to think as it was a Sqn Ldr against the judgment of senior staff pilots (by rank, not flying hours).



I can only imagine. There is another culture if the OC flying likes a young jock and takes him out for flying, the OC Sqn and other senior sqn officers develop insecurity. Seen it a number of times. It's pure out of jealousy. 



Armchair said:


> Shameful to read the stories here. This is why PAF should not be allowed to keep things in the dark. Pakistan deserves better. PAF is not a fiefdom for anyone, if competence is not honoured, no amount of feel good stories will help PAF win the next air war.





Maxpane said:


> thats shame ful why dnt they change their culture



These humane imperfections are everywhere in the world. Do you know what happens in IAF? The pilots are usually from upper casts while the maintainers are from lower. In an event of a spat, it turns into a inter-cast issue and these maintainers sabotage the aircraft which leads to its crash. 

So every organization has its flaws and ours being 'power distance' in the name of discipline. This power distance between senior and junior confers complete dominance to the senior in the light of his experience and record. Leaving little or no space for junior officers to shine.

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## Lord Of Gondor

airomerix said:


> These humane imperfections are everywhere in the world. Do you know what happens in IAF? The pilots are usually from upper casts while the maintainers are from lower. In an event of a spat, it turns into a inter-cast issue and these maintainers sabotage the aircraft which leads to its crash.


Bull Shit.


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## Maxpane

airomerix said:


> Organizations hire fresh talent for ideas and its the other way round here *facepalm*
> 
> 
> 
> Fatima's aircraft went into a flat spin and she ejected at 6000 AGL after being unable to recover. Jahaz kahan bachna tha.
> 
> 
> 
> I can only imagine. There is another culture if the OC flying likes a young jock and takes him out for flying, the OC Sqn and other senior sqn officers develop insecurity. Seen it a number of times. It's pure out of jealousy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These humane imperfections are everywhere in the world. Do you know what happens in IAF? The pilots are usually from upper casts while the maintainers are from lower. In an event of a spat, it turns into a inter-cast issue and these maintainers sabotage the aircraft which leads to its crash.
> 
> So every organization has its flaws and ours being 'power distance' in the name of discipline. This power distance between senior and junior confers complete dominance to the senior in the light of his experience and record. Leaving little or no space for junior officers to shine.


sir my concern is not about other organizations. when juniors officers gets higher positions thrn why not they try to change the culture which they have faced in the past. Though they were victims but after getting higher positions why they not try to change it instead of becoming the part of system

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## CriticalThought

airomerix said:


> Organizations hire fresh talent for ideas and its the other way round here *facepalm*
> 
> 
> 
> Fatima's aircraft went into a flat spin and she ejected at 6000 AGL after being unable to recover. Jahaz kahan bachna tha.
> 
> 
> 
> I can only imagine. There is another culture if the OC flying likes a young jock and takes him out for flying, the OC Sqn and other senior sqn officers develop insecurity. Seen it a number of times. It's pure out of jealousy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These humane imperfections are everywhere in the world. Do you know what happens in IAF? The pilots are usually from upper casts while the maintainers are from lower. In an event of a spat, it turns into a inter-cast issue and these maintainers sabotage the aircraft which leads to its crash.
> 
> So every organization has its flaws and ours being 'power distance' in the name of discipline. This power distance between senior and junior confers complete dominance to the senior in the light of his experience and record. Leaving little or no space for junior officers to shine.



Just my two cents. They could create an environment where juniors engage with each other in coming up with creative ideas. These could be reviewed and selected by top leadership, thus avoiding any embarrassing situations.

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## Armchair

airomerix said:


> Organizations hire fresh talent for ideas and its the other way round here *facepalm*
> 
> 
> 
> Fatima's aircraft went into a flat spin and she ejected at 6000 AGL after being unable to recover. Jahaz kahan bachna tha.
> 
> 
> 
> I can only imagine. There is another culture if the OC flying likes a young jock and takes him out for flying, the OC Sqn and other senior sqn officers develop insecurity. Seen it a number of times. It's pure out of jealousy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These humane imperfections are everywhere in the world. Do you know what happens in IAF? The pilots are usually from upper casts while the maintainers are from lower. In an event of a spat, it turns into a inter-cast issue and these maintainers sabotage the aircraft which leads to its crash.
> 
> So every organization has its flaws and ours being 'power distance' in the name of discipline. This power distance between senior and junior confers complete dominance to the senior in the light of his experience and record. Leaving little or no space for junior officers to shine.



Maybe true in India and Pakistan but in top tier Western organizations, this is far from the truth. I've spent years studying this phenomenon and have a PhD in a related subject, and unless we can move towards a meritocratic organization culture, we aren't going to be winning any wars or being able to compete internationally. Thanks for your candid insights.

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## Scorpiooo

airomerix said:


> True.
> 
> However, i've heard quite alot of stories of these 'skirmishes' between good pilots and their instructors over petty issues. I know a pilot who was sidelined because he took a shot of the sqn flt cmdr during a 2v2. He was roasted because he took a shot of a senior sqn ldr as a flg officer.
> 
> I know another one who used to bring in ideas of air combat off the internet from the literature available from ex USAF pilots and other sources, he was roasted too because the instructor's ego was hurt.
> 
> CCS is known for the clash of ego's. I met someone who is in Qatar Airways right now. He gave CCS instructors a run for their money during engagements. Top notch material! Was a Sher Afghan had he completed the last two missions. But in the process, developed hostility with OC CCS. He was chewed out and sent to AHQ. Never wanted to fly again despite Sohail Aman's repeated requests. Left the Air force for Airblue and now he's in Qatar.


Common pakistani phenomena, ego and fear that junior can take lead, this is all field of life for pakistanis



Adam_Khan said:


> I've personally seen guys who are more keen on going to transport/ AWACS just because it improves their chance of getting into airline flying later on and these days quite a few of them think along these lines.
> 
> You're right that they can't change the OCU curriculum but my point is that if not a single female pilot has gone beyond that stage then shouldn't sending them to OCU's for fighter aircraft be stopped.
> 
> Ps,from what I've heard the induction rate of women in GDP branch is already falling.


Thay are trying, lets see one day , one of these actually qualifies than

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## Tps43

Blacklight said:


> Seriously bro....!


Yes ISI brought it not too long ago it’s for vip transportation

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## Ark_Angel

airomerix said:


> True.
> 
> However, i've heard quite alot of stories of these 'skirmishes' between good pilots and their instructors over petty issues. I know a pilot who was sidelined because he took a shot of the sqn flt cmdr during a 2v2. He was roasted because he took a shot of a senior sqn ldr as a flg officer.
> 
> I know another one who used to bring in ideas of air combat off the internet from the literature available from ex USAF pilots and other sources, he was roasted too because the instructor's ego was hurt.
> 
> CCS is known for the clash of ego's. I met someone who is in Qatar Airways right now. He gave CCS instructors a run for their money during engagements. Top notch material! Was a Sher Afghan had he completed the last two missions. But in the process, developed hostility with OC CCS. He was chewed out and sent to AHQ. Never wanted to fly again despite Sohail Aman's repeated requests. Left the Air force for Airblue and now he's in Qatar.


Happens world over. Not restricted to PAF. Met multiple USAF Pilots who resigned or Left Fighter flying to pursue career in the private domain because they couldn’t get along with their Seniors. In IAF it’s the same case rather even worse. Met an Ex SU-30 Pilot he’s currently in the states flying Private for some Big Wig. The Guy had more than 800 Hours on him. And last he was Instructor at Gwalior. Said he had an argument with his OC in the air over their tactics when Singaporeans were around. The next thing he knew he’s off for good. 
My view from all this and others: 
If you really believe that you know more than your Senior, or that your more competent in whatever Air,Land or Surface Platform that you serve on to: 

1) Learn to Digest what your senior asks you or requires you don’t be a smart *** 
2) Understand his nature is he an SPG type or likes what new you bring to the game 
3) If he doesn’t then keep your Ideas with you, Look down walk along, Rise to the top and Allow your juniors to bring innovation and changes, Give them a free hand 
4) If you can’t do that, Leave as early as possible and try something else, The world is infinite and use your talents accordingly

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## loanranger

Hodor said:


> Couldn't say better.If you want to excel in the Air Force just do Jee Sir and dont bring up creative ideas unless you are very senior.


Absolutely agreed. Butter yourself to the top. But never let the inovative mind for the benefit of PAF die while climbing the ladder.


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## airomerix

loanranger said:


> Absolutely agreed. Butter yourself to the top. But never let the inovative mind for the benefit of PAF die while climbing the ladder.



It's easier said than done. Innovation requires a 'cultivatable' environment and supportive leadership to thrive. Without it, it is killed with age or at best, loses sharpness.



Ark_Angel said:


> Happens world over. Not restricted to PAF. Met multiple USAF Pilots who resigned or Left Fighter flying to pursue career in the private domain because they couldn’t get along with their Seniors. In IAF it’s the same case rather even worse. Met an Ex SU-30 Pilot he’s currently in the states flying Private for some Big Wig. The Guy had more than 800 Hours on him. And last he was Instructor at Gwalior. Said he had an argument with his OC in the air over their tactics when Singaporeans were around. The next thing he knew he’s off for good.
> My view from all this and others:
> If you really believe that you know more than your Senior, or that your more competent in whatever Air,Land or Surface Platform that you serve on to:
> 
> 1) *Learn to Digest what your senior asks you or* requires you don’t be a smart ***
> 
> This is the name of the game.
> 
> 2) Understand his nature is he an SPG type or likes what new you bring to the game
> 3) If he doesn’t then keep your Ideas with you, Look down walk along, Rise to the top and Allow your juniors to bring innovation and changes, Give them a free hand
> 4) If you can’t do that, Leave as early as possible and try something else, The world is infinite and use your talents accordingly



Not surprised. It sounds like a real loss.

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## Raider 21

Ark_Angel said:


> Happens world over. Not restricted to PAF. Met multiple USAF Pilots who resigned or Left Fighter flying to pursue career in the private domain because they couldn’t get along with their Seniors. In IAF it’s the same case rather even worse. Met an Ex SU-30 Pilot he’s currently in the states flying Private for some Big Wig. The Guy had more than 800 Hours on him. And last he was Instructor at Gwalior. Said he had an argument with his OC in the air over their tactics when Singaporeans were around. The next thing he knew he’s off for good.
> My view from all this and others:
> If you really believe that you know more than your Senior, or that your more competent in whatever Air,Land or Surface Platform that you serve on to:
> 
> 1) Learn to Digest what your senior asks you or requires you don’t be a smart ***
> 2) Understand his nature is he an SPG type or likes what new you bring to the game
> 3) If he doesn’t then keep your Ideas with you, Look down walk along, Rise to the top and Allow your juniors to bring innovation and changes, Give them a free hand
> 4) If you can’t do that, Leave as early as possible and try something else, The world is infinite and use your talents accordingly


That is there, but with organizations like USAF there is a high chance of getting appreciation for the effort the younger pilots put in. They normally and I repeat normally they don't let experience to waste. Same goes for the Navy and the Marine Corps. Some of the sharpest pilots I met are from the Marine Corps. Sharp, focused, fit and very motivated despite the scarcity of jets these days in their inventory.

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## araz

Ark_Angel said:


> Happens world over. Not restricted to PAF. Met multiple USAF Pilots who resigned or Left Fighter flying to pursue career in the private domain because they couldn’t get along with their Seniors. In IAF it’s the same case rather even worse. Met an Ex SU-30 Pilot he’s currently in the states flying Private for some Big Wig. The Guy had more than 800 Hours on him. And last he was Instructor at Gwalior. Said he had an argument with his OC in the air over their tactics when Singaporeans were around. The next thing he knew he’s off for good.
> My view from all this and others:
> If you really believe that you know more than your Senior, or that your more competent in whatever Air,Land or Surface Platform that you serve on to:
> 
> 1) Learn to Digest what your senior asks you or requires you don’t be a smart ***
> 2) Understand his nature is he an SPG type or likes what new you bring to the game
> 3) If he doesn’t then keep your Ideas with you, Look down walk along, Rise to the top and Allow your juniors to bring innovation and changes, Give them a free hand
> 4) If you can’t do that, Leave as early as possible and try something else, The world is infinite and use your talents accordingly


Having said all of this, there needs to be a system for marking progress which is objective and relatively devoid of personal likes and dislikes. It generally tends to be a tick box exercise but that plus the flight recording data can be a good judge of individual performance. There also needs to be a STRONG element of self discipline amongst trainees. A lot of careers have been destroyed by people being cocky and not listening to advice.
A

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

araz said:


> Having said all of this, there needs to be a system for marking progress which is objective and relatively devoid of personal likes and dislikes. It generally tends to be a tick box exercise but that plus the flight recording data can be a good judge of individual performance. There also needs to be a STRONG element of self discipline amongst trainees. A lot of careers have been destroyed by people being cocky and not listening to advice.
> A


You have to find a way to reward those who take feedback from juniors positively. 

If it's pride that's stopping seniors, then you have to train them to show pride in having subordinates with leadership caliber.

We use the term "rockstar team" in the corporate world as an example of this type of leadership. It's the idea that your subordinates are all leaders in their own right, and while they follow you, they're ahead of their peers in other businesses (or teams).

That said, the thing runs both ways. Juniors should also learn to explain issues about their seniors' work in a respectful way. I'm not saying this happens, but I've seen it happen the wrong way too, and that doesn't help anyone.

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## redgriffin

Knuckles said:


> It is not to say it this is normal.But highlighting that it is not uncommon. And it has a lot do with the cultural aspect, which won't change overnight,


This culture permeates across all aspects of professional Pakistan. See it everyday in the corporate sector as well & it makes my blood boil. A lot of us can't stomach the fact that someone may be better than us at the thing we chose to do or may know more than us.

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## truthfollower

Nature of Seniors in Pakistan in every field from home to organization is that they cant be wrong and junior in the family and organization must follow their command like its a dictatorship. No questions asked

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## araz

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> You have to find a way to reward those who take feedback from juniors positively.
> 
> If it's pride that's stopping seniors, then you have to train them to show pride in having subordinates with leadership caliber.
> 
> We use the term "rockstar team" in the corporate world as an example of this type of leadership. It's the idea that your subordinates are all leaders in their own right, and while they follow you, they're ahead of their peers in other businesses (or teams).
> 
> That said, the thing runs both ways. Juniors should also learn to explain issues about their seniors' work in a respectful way. I'm not saying this happens, but I've seen it happen the wrong way too, and that doesn't help anyone.


It is normally a 2 way assessment of what has been taught and learnt. If there is a personality clash it needs an adjudicator who looks at all the evidence and gives a verdict. If a senior gets too many negative reviews then he should be out of that job. On the other hand a junior who winges too much and most seniors have logical reasons to complain about his attitude/ skills should be shown the door. However two way feedback with adjudication should do the job. End of the term a good senior should be rewarded for his efforts.
A


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## fatman17

Lessons from Balakot

Electronic and information warfare can be game changers

Shahid Raza

The elephant in the room for the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is that its adversary, the Indian Air Force (IAF) is larger, better equipped and competent. Keeping this realisation in mind, the PAF, a tactical air force, over the years has had to adapt to the reality of always being outnumbered and outgunned.

The PAF was forged in the inferno of the Indo-Pakistani wars of 1965 and 1971. Its organisational growth continued during the Soviet-Afghan war when the PAF was engaged in combat against the Soviet Air Force and its Communist Afghan allies. The PAF also learned valuable lessons on indigenisation during the so-called ‘lost decade’ of the Nineties during which the PAF was unable to equip itself adequately due to the US sanctions.

When the Indo-Pakistani conflict broke out in the remote mountainous regions of Kargil, the PAF found itself poorly equipped to handle the crisis, especially due to the lack of a Beyond Visual Range (BVR) capability on its F-16 fighters. The ‘BVR Gap’ between the PAF and IAF tilted airpower dynamics in favour of the IAF throughout the Kargil crisis, therefore its focus remained primarily on maintaining homeland defences. The seriousness of the situation for PAF during that time cannot be better exemplified than the fact that the IAF lost two aircraft during the Kargil conflict, none of which were shot down by PAF.

This situation for the PAF changed after the 9/11 attacks in 2001, as the Americans suddenly found themselves in the need for Pakistani assistance in Afghanistan, and consequently, the sanctions imposed on the PAF were lifted. This opened a gateway for new development and acquisition programmes initiated by the PAF leadership at that time, to conduct fast-paced modernisation of the entire PAF. This is the time when the PAF launched its JF-17 Thunder fighter development initiative with China, placed an order for the F-16 C/D Block-52+ fighters, sought delivery of its remaining F-16 fighters which were placed under long-term storage in the US and put forth a requirement for the Mid Life Upgrade (MLU-MIII) for its F-16 A/B Block-15 aircraft.

During the past two decades, despite economic challenges, the PAF maintained a steady pace of modernisation – it not only acquired new aircraft but also inducted new capabilities by purchasing high-end assets such as the SAAB 2000 EriEye AEW&C from Sweden, ZDK-03 Karakoram Eagle AWACS from China, SPADA-2000+ surface-to-air missile system from MBDA, AN/TPS-77 Long Range Surveillance Radar system from Lockheed Martin, FALCO UAVs from Italy, IL-78 aerial refuelling tankers from Ukraine, and more recently, JY-27A VHF Radar system from China. During this period, the PAF also attained Nuclear Strike Capabilities to complete the aerial delivery element of the ‘Minimum Credible Deterrence’ strategy.




Since the US-led invasion of Afghanistan, the PAF provided Close Air Support to the Pakistan Army then engaged in low-intensity conflict against various al Qaida linked militant organisations operating out of the unstable bordering regions of Pakistan and Afghanistan, and regular patrolling of the Indo-Pakistani border, mostly to deter potential intruders and UAVs. This all suddenly changed on 26 February 2019 when the IAF carried out a ‘Dead Drop’ strike in Pakistan’s Balakot region — across the International Border. This led to a reciprocal action by the PAF, which carried out a similar ‘Dead Drop’ operation across the Line of Control (LC) in the Jammu region, on the morning of 27 February 2019.

During the ensuing engagement, an IAF MiG-21 Bison interceptor was shot down by an AIM-120C AMRAAM fired by a PAF F-16 MLU aircraft. The Bison pilot, Wing Commander Abhinandan was captured by Pakistan and promptly released to minimise political escalation. Other than the downing of the MiG-21, a Mi-17V5 helicopter of the IAF became the victim of a fratricide, killing six IAF officers and crew onboard. There were various claims made by both sides after this aerial engagement including the downing of a Pakistani F-16 and an Indian Su-30MKI aircraft — although no convincing evidence was made available by both belligerents to accurately assess those claims from a neutral perspective.

In February 2019, when the PAF saw itself engaged in combat against a powerful nemesis, it became an engagement written in history, as it’s the first time since the Korean War that two nuclear powers directly locked horns in aerial combat. There are multiple lessons to learn from the perspective of the PAF, as the engagement it refers to as the ‘Operation Swift Retort’ was a litmus test of its capabilities and shortcomings. It tested the PAF at Command, Planning and Operational level — while giving it the opportunity to study its state of preparedness for future conflicts.





Airpower is First Responder: For years, the Pakistani defence mind-set has been hooked on to the importance of land warfare. Although it goes without saying that land warfare is perhaps the most critical element of any military engagement — the limitations put on the effectiveness and even the viability of land warfare under a nuclear paradigm remains a far cry from the blitzkrieg tactics taught religiously to students by military schools across Pakistan.

The stark reality of modern-day land warfare can’t be better exemplified than the Soviet ‘Seven Days to the Rhine’ strategy — which is a testament to the fact that mass scale land warfare between two nuclear weapons states will almost certainly lead to a nuclear holocaust — an outcome no sane mind wants. Keeping this view in mind, the PAF emerges as the ‘First Responder’ to any tactical level conflict with India, as it was amply displayed during the brief tactical engagement between India and Pakistan back in February 2019.

This dynamic remains a hot topic of discussion as the viability and utility of airpower in the tactical domain gain further prominence as a result of recent experiences. The deployment of airpower in tactical conflicts has been established as a token policy instrument to project power while remaining well below the established escalation thresholds. This allows policymakers in Islamabad to not only manage escalation dynamics, but to also assure a measured, equivocal and non-escalatory retaliation — designed to deliver upon the intended political outcomes.



See First, Engage First: The MiG-21 Bison cannot be regarded as a frontline asset of the IAF, even by a wide stretch of the imagination. The IAF, however, believed that after these old aircraft were put through an extensive Israeli upgrade package, they could be used to ambush enemy fighters much more advanced than the humble MiG-21.

The IAF cemented this doctrine during Cope India exercises, during which the MiG-21s were pitted against the much-advanced USAF F-15 Eagles. The PAF was watching this with keen interest and is believed to have adopted similar tactics by using its available F/7-PG Skybolt fighters which are a Chinese produced derivative of the MiG-21. The PAF is believed to have extensively trained its frontline F-16 squadrons in ambush tactics and countermeasures adopted by the IAF — which might have contributed to the downing of the IAF MiG-21 Bison on the morning of 27 February 2019.

This ‘See First, Engage First’ approach is built on the technological capabilities and training regimes adopted by the PAF since the lifting of sanctions after the US-led invasion of Afghanistan. The PAF has built extensive sensor architecture and acquired advanced BVR capabilities, combined with a modernised Command & Control system to detect, track and engage hostile aircraft while maintaining the integrity of its own C4I systems. As far as the PAF is concerned, Operation Swift Retort validates this concept and its associated acquisition and training programmes.



Standoff Weapons offer Deterrence Value: The PAF was one of the early adopters of laser-guided precision munitions in South Asia. However, it could not leverage its precision strike capabilities during the Kargil conflict due to the ‘BVR Gap’. The IAF, on the other hand, was able to leverage its precision attack capabilities developed in cooperation with Israeli firms during the Kargil conflict. This imbalance was addressed once the PAF acquired BVR capability and was, therefore, able to offer reliable top cover for its strike packages.

The PAF acquired advance precision munitions and targeting pods from the United States which included GPS guided, laser guided and TV guided precision munitions to be used against tunnel networks operated by the militants in the restive border regions of Afghanistan and Pakistan. The PAF, therefore, gained extensive experience in the employability of precision-guided weapons under all conditions.

At the same time, the PAF also developed and acquired various kinds of precision-guided Standoff Weapons (SOW) from South Africa and China. During the Balakot raid, the IAF dead dropped Israeli made SPICE-2000 precision-guided glide munitions. The PAF in-kind deployed its Hafr-4 optically guided Standoff Weapons, which are produced locally under license from a South African company. It is worthy of note that neither the IAF SPICE-2000s or the PAF Hafr-4 SOWs caused any casualties on the ground because in both cases the weapons were ‘dead dropped’. They were only intended to be used as a demonstration of capability and intent, rather than to cause actual damage which would’ve deteriorated the already tense situation between the two nuclear-armed rivals.

This phenomenon of calculated engagement thus became an instrument of deterrence and at the heart of it lay the modern standoff weapons, offering tactical flexibility to the decision-makers.



Electronic Warfare Works: From the PAF’s perspective, during the aerial engagement in February, Wing Commander Abhinandan found his MiG-21 Bison blinded from his command post, therefore he could not positively hear vocal commands from his combat controller. The Su-30MKI aircraft flying top cover are also believed to have not been able to achieve a positive lock on the PAF aircraft engaged in the fight and were, therefore, not able to launch their radar-guided missiles.

This points to the extensive use of Electronic Warfare by the PAF during this engagement, to not only protect its own assets but to also attack hostile aircraft in an attempt to disrupt their communications and to confuse their radars. It is worthy of note that the PAF has collected vast amounts of experience in Electronic Warfare during the bilateral Shaheen series exercise with China. These exercises offer the PAF a rare opportunity to both fly and contest against the Chinese Su-27 and Su-30 aircraft to learn about their capabilities, weaknesses and tactics.

From the PAF’s point of view, the employment of Electronic Warfare during this engagement was a success and a lesson in modern aerial warfare. This aspect will loom large in future development and acquisition programmes undertaken by the PAF, meaning that the PAF will continue to acquire land-based and airborne assets dedicated to Electronic Warfare.



Information Warfare is Decisive: The PAF believes that in order to truly leverage tactical operations, the importance of information warfare cannot be understated. In the age of social media, it is absolutely critical to establish facts and create narratives as quickly as possible. The Information Warfare strategy adopted by the PAF is visible in the capture and release of the Wing Commander Abhinandan.

In a world where information flows instantly, it is important to seize the initiative. The PAF understood this concept very well and facilitated the flow of information during the hour of uncertainty back in February. For example, with the interview of the Wing Commander Abhinandan, his prompt release by Prime Minister Imran Khan or the establishment of ‘Operation Swift Retort’ memorial at the PAF Museum in Karachi – the PAF clearly believes that it has demonstrated information dominance. Since the war is politics by other means, the true nature of tactical engagements boils down to political objectives — whoever gets there first, wins.



Forecast: Having extensively studied the PAF operations during the past many years, this writer believes that the PAF might adopt the following course of action in the light of experience gained from its engagement with the IAF.

The PAF is likely to opt for a low observable platform to maintain its small but noticeable tactical edge over the IAF.The PAF watches the Rafale and Meteor acquisition by the IAF with keen interest. It will, therefore, take steps to keep the technological gap as close as possible by making new acquisitions, such as newer types of BVR missiles for its fighter fleet.The Indian acquisition of the S-400 Triumph SAM system represents a pressing challenge for the PAF. It will have to take steps to maintain its strike capabilities under a heavily contested environment. This might include additional focus on the development and acquisition of advance Standoff Weapons.The PAF will continue to acquire new early warning and electronic warfare assets to add asymmetric capabilities to its operations.The contact with the IAF may also have exposed shortcomings of the PAF and it would have to readjust their procurement and training programmes accordingly.The greatest change perhaps would have to be in the way Pakistan makes its future defence policies with a renewed focus on the development of PAF’s capabilities, including focus on emerging domains such as nuclear and cyberwarfare.

(The writer is editor of defence and strategic affairs for the Global Village Space Monthly. He focuses on the contemporary matters of geo-security affecting the South and Central Asian region, as well as the Middle East. Twitter: @schaheid

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## ghazi52



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## fatman17

Dummy Targets: Mock up of Mig-21s lined up on NAL airbase to lure PAF in attacking them. The airbase is configured with long range tracking radars and multiple SAM sites to deny any SEAD/DEAD op.
#IAF https://t.co/gCWTltHMcl

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## fatman17

Bulky thunder with the CFT kit, just a concept art. https://t.co/k9KOE7terT

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## CriticalThought

@airomerix @Knuckles @Ark_Angel @Bilal Khan (Quwa) 

Gentlemen, it is slightly unfair to call out the Senior Officers in these cases. PAF is no ordinary organization - it is in the business of taking lives and putting at risk both lives and millions of dollars worth of equipment of a very poor nation. The leader taking his subordinates into battle needs to be 110% sure that both him and his team are on the exact same page. This becomes important manyfold for modern air warfare. It is only through a brutal and ongoing selection process, that you get such thorough professionals as we saw on 27th Feb, 2019. For a moment, put the cocky pilots in the air over LOC with multiple Indian bogies showing their tails. Hand over heart, do you think these people would have shown the restraint shown by our pilots? Keep in mind that I freely call Bajwa and Khan traitors, but I salute the professionalism of our pilots and their obedience to their seniors.

There is another aspect as well. The current policies, procedures, and training of PAF represents knowledge gained over 72 years, and two major air battles with the enemy, not counting the numerous other accomplishments. It is simply not humanly possible for any young genius to come up with something that is more valuable than this accumulated experience. With the advance of technology, you get new toys, but Sun Tzu still remains relevant. The art of war, the crux that forms the soul of a warrior, remains the same, and it takes years of experience to master. You see this in martial arts - the Sensei is most respectable and if any upstart tries to best him, he is shown his place immediately.

If it has been explained to a young pilot that the leader's plane is out of bounds - either directly or through the grapevine, there is no excuse for the behavior. If things are more tacit, we are in a gray area. I am 99% confident that in the gray zone, what gets you dismissed is pure cockiness. Sincerely accepting one's mistake and offering an apology should be enough in most cases.

But if an IP/senior is truly biased, then PAF must put in place safeguards to ensure the young talent of our country isn't lost. And I am quite sure such safeguards are already in place.

Again, my two cents.

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## khanasifm

fatman17 said:


> Dummy Targets: Mock up of Mig-21s lined up on NAL airbase to lure PAF in attacking them. The airbase is configured with long range tracking radars and multiple SAM sites to deny any SEAD/DEAD op.
> #IAF https://t.co/gCWTltHMcl
> View attachment 631720




Like iaf paf has also number of older types like a5 , f-6 and now f-7 at various locations After retirement 

nothing new


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## Bossman

fatman17 said:


> Dummy Targets: Mock up of Mig-21s lined up on NAL airbase to lure PAF in attacking them. The airbase is configured with long range tracking radars and multiple SAM sites to deny any SEAD/DEAD op.
> #IAF https://t.co/gCWTltHMcl
> View attachment 631720


More likely old grounded Mig 21s. If they want to make dummies they will do it for Mirages and SUs.

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## ghazi52

Like this at Karachi Airport





*
Closer view of twelve Shaheen Air Boeing 737-200 Advanced dumped in an area at Karachi Airport where one of these aircraft (registration AP-BIS) caught fire.*






*Circled is the area where one of dumped Shaheen Air Boeing 737-200 Advanced aircraft caught fire at Karachi Airport.*

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## Blacklight

ghazi52 said:


> Like this at Karachi Airport
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> Closer view of twelve Shaheen Air Boeing 737-200 Advanced dumped in an area at Karachi Airport where one of these aircraft (registration AP-BIS) caught fire.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Circled is the area where one of dumped Shaheen Air Boeing 737-200 Advanced aircraft caught fire at Karachi Airport.*


The company went belly up, so why store their junk? Why not sell it and pay of employees left hanging?

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## Raider 21

CriticalThought said:


> @airomerix @Knuckles @Ark_Angel @Bilal Khan (Quwa)
> 
> Gentlemen, it is slightly unfair to call out the Senior Officers in these cases. PAF is no ordinary organization - it is in the business of taking lives and putting at risk both lives and millions of dollars worth of equipment of a very poor nation. The leader taking his subordinates into battle needs to be 110% sure that both him and his team are on the exact same page. This becomes important manyfold for modern air warfare. It is only through a brutal and ongoing selection process, that you get such thorough professionals as we saw on 27th Feb, 2019. For a moment, put the cocky pilots in the air over LOC with multiple Indian bogies showing their tails. Hand over heart, do you think these people would have shown the restraint shown by our pilots? Keep in mind that I freely call Bajwa and Khan traitors, but I salute the professionalism of our pilots and their obedience to their seniors.
> 
> There is another aspect as well. The current policies, procedures, and training of PAF represents knowledge gained over 72 years, and two major air battles with the enemy, not counting the numerous other accomplishments. It is simply not humanly possible for any young genius to come up with something that is more valuable than this accumulated experience. With the advance of technology, you get new toys, but Sun Tzu still remains relevant. The art of war, the crux that forms the soul of a warrior, remains the same, and it takes years of experience to master. *You see this in martial arts - the Sensei is most respectable and if any upstart tries to best him, he is shown his place immediately.*
> 
> If it has been explained to a young pilot that the leader's plane is out of bounds - either directly or through the grapevine, there is no excuse for the behavior. If things are more tacit, we are in a gray area. I am 99% confident that in the gray zone, what gets you dismissed is pure cockiness. Sincerely accepting one's mistake and offering an apology should be enough in most cases.
> 
> But if an IP/senior is truly biased, then PAF must put in place safeguards to ensure the young talent of our country isn't lost. And I am quite sure such safeguards are already in place.
> 
> Again, my two cents.


It is also unfair to exhibit poor leadership to your own men and women. Remember I said it before, this does not generalise how the air force functions but the system can break down the best of pilots and officers. A sharp junior pilot pointing out a senior's major mistakes should never be used to berate the younger officer. The Israelis have a system where a Brigadier or the Air Chief might be flying a mission (and yes their air chief's do fly operationally about once or twice a week), might be flying as No. 2 and the lead maybe a Lieutenant. If the senior makes a mistake, the junior is expected to correct him during the debriefings. 

The Sensei will listen to what the youngsters will say and most likely will guide him.

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## LKJ86

Islamabad
May 12, 2020

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## Blacklight

LKJ86 said:


> Islamabad
> May 12, 2020
> View attachment 631886


Wrong Thread, but Thank You China, for your support.

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## litman

fatman17 said:


> Dummy Targets: Mock up of Mig-21s lined up on NAL airbase to lure PAF in attacking them. The airbase is configured with long range tracking radars and multiple SAM sites to deny any SEAD/DEAD op.
> #IAF https://t.co/gCWTltHMcl
> View attachment 631720


i think this concept of parking junk fighters to decieve the attackers is now obsolete. this is the age of precision engagment. any air force before attacking a particular air field can easily get the real time satellite imagery of the target and select the areas which are to be hit. no air force is foolish enough to park whole squadron of jets in a field in a haphazard manner.

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## polanski

Pakistan steps up fighter jets activities near Pakistani border with India: https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2...-activities-near-pakistani-border-with-india/

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## Raider 21

LKJ86 said:


> Islamabad
> May 12, 2020
> View attachment 631886


Thanks China for sending support but this won't help by playing angel without having answers for the rest of the world.

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## Blacklight

polanski said:


> Pakistan steps up fighter jets activities near Pakistani border with India: https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2...-activities-near-pakistani-border-with-india/


As of 2hr ago, CAPS have increased.

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## aliyusuf

Blacklight said:


> As of 2hr ago, CAPS have increased.


This is a screen shot from the article link in your post (originally shared by @polanski )





*Which seems to state that PAF is operating the EriEye ER (GaN)-based AESA ... contrary to the opinion and claims of many on this forum.*

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## airomerix

CriticalThought said:


> @airomerix @Knuckles @Ark_Angel @Bilal Khan (Quwa)
> 
> Gentlemen, it is slightly unfair to call out the Senior Officers in these cases. PAF is no ordinary organization - it is in the business of taking lives and putting at risk both lives and millions of dollars worth of equipment of a very poor nation. The leader taking his subordinates into battle needs to be 110% sure that both him and his team are on the exact same page. This becomes important manyfold for modern air warfare. It is only through a brutal and ongoing selection process, that you get such thorough professionals as we saw on 27th Feb, 2019. For a moment, put the cocky pilots in the air over LOC with multiple Indian bogies showing their tails. Hand over heart, do you think these people would have shown the restraint shown by our pilots? Keep in mind that I freely call Bajwa and Khan traitors, but I salute the professionalism of our pilots and their obedience to their seniors.
> 
> There is another aspect as well. The current policies, procedures, and training of PAF represents knowledge gained over 72 years, and two major air battles with the enemy, not counting the numerous other accomplishments. It is simply not humanly possible for any young genius to come up with something that is more valuable than this accumulated experience. With the advance of technology, you get new toys, but Sun Tzu still remains relevant. The art of war, the crux that forms the soul of a warrior, remains the same, and it takes years of experience to master. You see this in martial arts - the Sensei is most respectable and if any upstart tries to best him, he is shown his place immediately.
> 
> If it has been explained to a young pilot that the leader's plane is out of bounds - either directly or through the grapevine, there is no excuse for the behavior. If things are more tacit, we are in a gray area. I am 99% confident that in the gray zone, what gets you dismissed is pure cockiness. Sincerely accepting one's mistake and offering an apology should be enough in most cases.
> 
> But if an IP/senior is truly biased, then PAF must put in place safeguards to ensure the young talent of our country isn't lost. And I am quite sure such safeguards are already in place.
> 
> Again, my two cents.



Tradition, seniority and culture is no excuse for bad leadership. 

Leadership in itself is a very abstract concept in almost every field. In armed forces, leadership is not a one way road either. Good leadership is making mistakes and admitting them. The problem lies with the identification of these mistakes which often comes from subordinates, and they are reprimanded for it. 

In the cases described earlier, I dont see how Sqn OC has to hold a grudge if a young Flt Lt gets to fly with OC Flying or he gets to take a shot during a mock dogfight. To save themselves the embarrassment, they hamper and limit the learning curve of these young guns and cultivate old school and mediocre strategies to satisfy their own ego. Unacceptable. 

As someone said, if USAF stops to innovate its functioning, it will be second in space, not first.

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## mingle

polanski said:


> Pakistan steps up fighter jets activities near Pakistani border with India: https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2...-activities-near-pakistani-border-with-india/


It's normal they used to do alot CAP in night time as well day when I was back home.


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## Nomad40

mingle said:


> It's normal they used to do alot CAP in night time as well day when I was back home.


Air activity is sub par all the time I dont think any thing else is unusual beside ELINT movements on both sides.

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## mingle

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> Air activity is sub par all the time I dont think any thing else is unusual beside ELINT movements on both sides.


My village was/is about 60km east of Sargodha I used to see them flying whole day whole night sometime breaking the sound Barriers night time u could see blinking lights of jets.So I take this as fake news beleive Indian Govt has nothing to do so sell pak as boggyman.

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## Nomad40

mingle said:


> My village was/is about 60km east of Sargodha I used to see them flying whole day whole night sometime breaking the sound Barriers night time u could see blinking lights of jets.So I take this as fake news beleive Indian Govt has nothing to do so sell pak as boggyman.


Yeah let them broadcast the weather its the least they can do for Daddy Pakistan.

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## mingle

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> Yeah let them broadcast the weather its the least they can do for Daddy Pakistan.


They start doing now PTV used to do when I was kid nothing new PTV can do it again can include Indian punjab, Rajasthan even Dehli these are useless and futile things no need to be panic


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## Nomad40

mingle said:


> They start doing now PTV used to do when I was kid nothing new PTV can do it again can include Indian punjab, Rajasthan even Dehli these are useless and futile things no need to be panic


Yeah 

We need Operation Reckless Retort this time 40 Strikers and 35+40 Air superiority

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## The Raven

aliyusuf said:


> This is a screen shot from the article link in your post (originally shared by @polanski )
> View attachment 631966
> 
> *Which seems to state that PAF is operating the EriEye ER (GaN)-based AESA ... contrary to the opinion and claims of many on this forum.*



It's an Indian news site, I wouldn't say it's a reliable news source. According to SAAB itself, the ER version of the Erieye radar is only available on the Globaleye, the first example of which was manufactured in early 2018 followed by extensive testing and validation, and SAAB didn't complete its testing and validation until around mid-2019. The PAF ordered the follow up order of 3 new SAAB 2000 Erieyes in mid-2017, which were delivered by 2018. The launch customer of the Globaleye and ER version of the Erieye is the UAE, which should be receiving its initial airframes about now.


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## fatman17

Rare photo op

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## Blacklight

The Raven said:


> It's an Indian news site, I wouldn't say it's a reliable news source. According to SAAB itself, the ER version of the Erieye radar is only available on the Globaleye, the first example of which was manufactured in early 2018 followed by extensive testing and validation, and SAAB didn't complete its testing and validation until around mid-2019. The PAF ordered the follow up order of 3 new SAAB 2000 Erieyes in mid-2017, which were delivered by 2018. The launch customer of the Globaleye and ER version of the Erieye is the UAE, which should be receiving its initial airframes about now.





The Raven said:


> According to SAAB itself, the ER version of the Erieye radar is only available on the Globaleye,


Saab has said no such thing, and currently 3 other platforms fly the legacy Erieye, all of which can be upgraded to ER. The UAEAF did just that with their Saab340's back in 2015

*Swedish surveillance planes in huge UAE deal - 9 November 2015*
https://www.thelocal.se/20151109/swedish-surveillance-planes-bought-in-huge-uae-deal



The Raven said:


> The PAF ordered the follow up order of 3 new SAAB 2000 Erieyes in mid-2017, which were delivered by 2018.



The first ER to PAF, was delivered in Dec 2017, the remaining two in 2018.



The Raven said:


> The launch customer of the Globaleye and ER version of the Erieye is the UAE, which should be receiving its initial airframes about now.


1st aircraft delivered, last month. 2nd aircraft, static testing done, it is in Flt testing now.

*Saab Delivers the First GlobalEye -**29 April 2020*
https://saabgroup.com/media/news-press/news/2020-04/saab-delivers-the-first-globaleye/

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## Ultima Thule

Blacklight said:


> Saab has said no such thing, and currently 3 other platforms fly the legacy Erieye, all of which can be upgraded to ER. The UAEAF did just that with their Saab340's back in 2015
> 
> *Swedish surveillance planes in huge UAE deal - 9 November 2015*
> https://www.thelocal.se/20151109/swedish-surveillance-planes-bought-in-huge-uae-deal
> 
> 
> 
> The first ER to PAF, was delivered in Dec 2017, the remaining two in 2018.
> 
> 
> 1st aircraft delivered, last month. 2nd aircraft, static testing done, it is in Flt testing now.
> 
> *Saab Delivers the First GlobalEye -**29 April 2020*
> https://saabgroup.com/media/news-press/news/2020-04/saab-delivers-the-first-globaleye/


the question is does PAF uses this GaN base AESA on our ERIEYE????, i don't thinks so brother


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## Pakistani Fighter

Blacklight said:


> Saab has said no such thing, and currently 3 other platforms fly the legacy Erieye, all of which can be upgraded to ER. The UAEAF did just that with their Saab340's back in 2015
> 
> *Swedish surveillance planes in huge UAE deal - 9 November 2015*
> https://www.thelocal.se/20151109/swedish-surveillance-planes-bought-in-huge-uae-deal
> 
> 
> 
> The first ER to PAF, was delivered in Dec 2017, the remaining two in 2018.
> 
> 
> 1st aircraft delivered, last month. 2nd aircraft, static testing done, it is in Flt testing now.
> 
> *Saab Delivers the First GlobalEye -**29 April 2020*
> https://saabgroup.com/media/news-press/news/2020-04/saab-delivers-the-first-globaleye/


Whats the range of ER?

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## The Raven

Blacklight said:


> Saab has said no such thing, and currently 3 other platforms fly the legacy Erieye, all of which can be upgraded to ER. The UAEAF did just that with their Saab340's back in 2015
> 
> *Swedish surveillance planes in huge UAE deal - 9 November 2015*
> https://www.thelocal.se/20151109/swedish-surveillance-planes-bought-in-huge-uae-deal
> 
> 
> 
> The first ER to PAF, was delivered in Dec 2017, the remaining two in 2018.
> 
> 
> 1st aircraft delivered, last month. 2nd aircraft, static testing done, it is in Flt testing now.
> 
> *Saab Delivers the First GlobalEye -**29 April 2020*
> https://saabgroup.com/media/news-press/news/2020-04/saab-delivers-the-first-globaleye/



The UAE was launch customer of the ER version, no where has SAAB stated that the PAF ordered the ER version in 2017, and that the ER version *will be* available to current users of the previous version.

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2015-11-09/saab-lands-uae-surveillance-deal

*[/QUOTE]While the UAE is the lead customer for the latest iteration of the Erieye concept, the developments being undertaken will feed into the overall program, and will become available for other customers.[/QUOTE]
*
I have yet to see any reference, either from SAAB, the PAF, or any other reputable source, that the PAF beat the UAE and became the launch customer of the ER version. Happy for you to prove me wrong.


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## Ultima Thule

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Whats the range of ER?


no one knows currently and range doesn't matter its more advance AESA than on our ERIEYE


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## Blacklight

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Whats the range of ER?


Approx 765km

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## Bossman

The Raven said:


> The UAE was launch customer of the ER version, no where has SAAB stated that the PAF ordered the ER version in 2017, and that the ER version *will be* available to current users of the previous version.
> 
> https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2015-11-09/saab-lands-uae-surveillance-deal


*While the UAE is the lead customer for the latest iteration of the Erieye concept, the developments being undertaken will feed into the overall program, and will become available for other customers.[/QUOTE]
*
I have yet to see any reference, either from SAAB, the PAF, or any other reputable source, that the PAF beat the UAE and became the launch customer of the ER version. Happy for you to prove me wrong.[/QUOTE]

I am not saying that you are right or wrong but Saab never announces it’s sales to Pakistan. Usually it say “sold to an Asian country” and it does not announce what it sold just the amount of the deal. Additionally, since the original order, Pakistan has not purchased fly away Erieyes, just the kits for the Radar and Controls. It does the integration itself. So if you are looking for a paper trail of what PAF purchased you will not find it in the public domain.

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## Blacklight

IAU said:


> no one knows currently and range doesn't matter its more advance AESA than on our ERIEYE


No it has already been publicly disclosed. 

Saab Legacy Erieye has a range of 450kms. ER adds 70% more to it.

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## The Raven

Bossman said:


> *While the UAE is the lead customer for the latest iteration of the Erieye concept, the developments being undertaken will feed into the overall program, and will become available for other customers.*
> 
> I have yet to see any reference, either from SAAB, the PAF, or any other reputable source, that the PAF beat the UAE and became the launch customer of the ER version. Happy for you to prove me wrong.
> 
> I am not saying that you are right or wrong but Saab never announces it’s sales to Pakistan. Usually it say “sold to an Asian country” and it does not announce what it sold just the amount of the deal. Additionally, since the original order, Pakistan has not purchased fly away Erieyes, just the kits for the Radar and Controls. It does the integration itself. So if you are looking for a paper trail of what PAF purchased you will not find it in the public domain.



Neither SAAB nor PAF has to directly state what was purchase was, and I don't expect them to, but it can be clearly inferred from the above, as well as the development timeline of the ER radar itself, that it's unlikely the PAF ordered the ER version. I'd be really happy to be proved wrong though.


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## The Raven

Blacklight said:


> *While the UAE is the lead customer for the latest iteration of the Erieye concept, the developments being undertaken will feed into the overall program, and will become available for other customers.
> *
> I have yet to see any reference, either from SAAB, the PAF, or any other reputable source, that the PAF beat the UAE and became the launch customer of the ER version. Happy for you to prove me wrong.
> 
> Like my earlier post in this thread proved, you are clueless, and like to chase your own tail. Pls feel free to continue doing so.



Happy for you to prove me wrong


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## Blacklight

IAU said:


> the question is does PAF uses this GaN base AESA on our ERIEYE????, i don't thinks so brother


PAF's last 3 systems are ER. Prior to that all Legacy.

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## Ultima Thule

Blacklight said:


> PAF's last 3 systems are ER. Prior to that all Legacy.


In those time ER were still in the testing phase, and how do you know, do you ave a source or/backup for your claims something or just assuming???

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## Blacklight

IAU said:


> In those time ER were still in the testing phase, and how do you know, do you ave a source or/backup for your claims something or just assuming???


If my sources are not solid, then no news.

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## aliyusuf

Blacklight said:


> PAF's last 3 systems are ER. Prior to that all Legacy.


Sahib, if you provide them even absolutely "Mustanad"/Credible/Certified information some people just cant seem to be able to accept that they were not the know it all that they thought were.

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## Armchair

airomerix said:


> Tradition, seniority and culture is no excuse for bad leadership.
> 
> Leadership in itself is a very abstract concept in almost every field. In armed forces, leadership is not a one way road either. Good leadership is making mistakes and admitting them. The problem lies with the identification of these mistakes which often comes from subordinates, and they are reprimanded for it.
> 
> In the cases described earlier, I dont see how Sqn OC has to hold a grudge if a young Flt Lt gets to fly with OC Flying or he gets to take a shot during a mock dogfight. To save themselves the embarrassment, they hamper and limit the learning curve of these young guns and cultivate old school and mediocre strategies to satisfy their own ego. Unacceptable.
> 
> As someone said, if USAF stops to innovate its functioning, it will be second in space, not first.



Maybe PAF could establish a Organization Culture Unit or something similar, to investigate claims of anti-meritocracy. When I was an academic administrator, our aim was to establish Quality Control and monitor our teachers to ensure that they were following processes and procedures. Reports, spot checks, feedback, etc were used to ensure we achieve the quality and standards we were looking for. Perhaps PAF could do something similar. 

Fighter pilots are the world's new knights in armor. They represent the elite, the first line of defense, and the most critical soldiers, whose victories or losses can decide the fate of a nation. To allow degradation of these national assets because of bruised egos is unacceptable. It cannot be treated the way Ark Angel just dismissively pushed it aside. It is quite alarming that a senior officer like him would have such an attitude. 

I hope to see better. PAF needs to constantly strive to improve itself. Evolve. Never stop trying to be more efficient and more effective.

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## The Raven

Blacklight said:


> Then get of this forum, and drag your sorry lazy behind to AHQ, and see what they tell you.
> 
> 
> Given that you dont even have basic knowledge of anything, best to quit polluting this thread.



Onus is on the person making the claim to provide some rational basis for the claim. If all you constantly have is "my cousin", then it's you who is polluting this forum with unsubstantiated rumours. All available data suggests the PAF does not have the ER version of the radar, but you want everyone to simply take your word for it because of what "your cousin" told you.

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## BHarwana

Please discuss topics with being polite to each other.

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## The Raven

Blacklight said:


> You should put a thread ban on people who are clueless, and just like to howl and chase their own tails. Facts verified on this very forum by serving professionals, is not enough for them......
> 
> Time for you to step up your game.
> 
> 
> Lagta hai tum waqai, kaway ho, aur wohi khatay ho jo kaway khatay hain. Aur bhoonko!
> 
> 
> This forum does not hand out titles on a whim, people are verified, before they get one. If you dont like how this forum is run, feel free to slither back to where you came from.



Verified as what exactly?


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## BHarwana

Hope this helps.
https://quwa.org/2017/05/21/pakistan-will-acquire-three-new-saab-erieye-aewc/







please stop trolling this thread. This thread is not allowed to be ruined.

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## Pakistani Fighter

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @airomerix


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## Blacklight

BHarwana said:


> Hope this helps.
> https://quwa.org/2017/05/21/pakistan-will-acquire-three-new-saab-erieye-aewc/
> 
> View attachment 632072
> 
> 
> please stop trolling this thread. This thread is not allowed to be ruined.


Thank You, for this!

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## The Raven

BHarwana said:


> Hope this helps.
> https://quwa.org/2017/05/21/pakistan-will-acquire-three-new-saab-erieye-aewc/
> 
> View attachment 632072
> 
> 
> please stop trolling this thread. This thread is not allowed to be ruined.



Thanks, so it's unclear if the PAF has the ER version, we only know they ordered 3 Erieye radars.

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## Blacklight

BHarwana said:


> Hope this helps.
> https://quwa.org/2017/05/21/pakistan-will-acquire-three-new-saab-erieye-aewc/
> 
> View attachment 632072
> 
> 
> please stop trolling this thread. This thread is not allowed to be ruined.


There is a very interesting story behind these deliverers, but with the level of trolling, and poor moderation, definitely not for this forum!

@Slav Defence

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## BHarwana

The Raven said:


> Thanks, so it's unclear if the PAF has the ER version, we only know they ordered 3 Erieye radars.


Don't have time to explain or check it please verify the Radar used in ER with QUWA link the RADAR is mentioned there.

Thanks

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## The Raven

BHarwana said:


> Don't have time to explain or check it please verify the Radar used in ER with QUWA link the RADAR is mentioned there.
> 
> Thanks



No, there's nothing in the Quwa article which suggests it's the ER version.

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## The Raven

Blacklight said:


> There is a very interesting story behind these deliverers, but with the level of trolling, and poor moderation, definitely not for this forum!
> 
> @Slav Defence



It's not trolling, but questioning an unsubstantiated claim.

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## BHarwana

The Raven said:


> No, there's nothing in the Quwa article which suggests it's the ER version.


Then it means PAF has not disclosed that info & you will not know. What is the name of the radar used by UAE?

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## The Raven

BHarwana said:


> Then it means PAF has not disclosed that info & you will not know. What is the name of the radar used by UAE?



I've been saying that all along, that the PAF has not confirmed it's the ER version. SAAB and the UAE have made it clear that the UAE ordered the ER version.

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## BHarwana

The Raven said:


> I've been saying that all along, that the PAF has not confirmed it's the ER version. SAAB and the UAE have made it clear that the UAE ordered the ER version.





IAU said:


> WE JUST SAYING SAME THAT ITS UNCLEAR WHAT THE AESA ON THOSE ERIEYES ORDER BACK IN 2015???


You have got your answer that you don't know what radar is Pakistan using which mean. The info is confidential. Stop fishing more plz.

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## Ultima Thule

BHarwana said:


> You have got your answer that you don't know what radar is Pakistan using which mean. The info is confidential. Stop fishing more plz.


We aRE JUST ASKING TO @Blacklight why he is so confirmed and provide a solid backup/proofs for his claims, but @Blacklight didn't provide his proofs backup of his claims you should warn @Blacklight too sir

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## Safriz

I guess ER can only be installed on Bombardier Global 6000 not on Saab-2000.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

The PAF definitely took delivery of additional Erieye AEW&C systems (the last MoDP report even confirmed the receipt of the 6th system). We don't know whether they're Erieye or Erieye ER, but the cost estimate ($94 M) given by the MoDP suggests it's Erieye.

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## Ultima Thule

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The PAF definitely took delivery of additional Erieye AEW&C systems (the last MoDP report even confirmed the receipt of the 6th system). But we don't know whether they're Erieye or Erieye ER. No information to that effect available in public.


so its unclear @Blacklight now see most respected member doesn't know whether we have ER version or not

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## Blacklight

IAU said:


> so its unclear @Blacklight now see most respected member doesn't know whether we have ER version or not


There are more knowledgeable members than the ones in the last 2/3 pages. BUT I wont bother tagging them.

Feel free to believe anything, and everything you want. I'm done wasting my time.



Safriz said:


> I guess ER can only be installed on Bombardier Global 6000 not on Saab-2000.


Bro the UAE Saab 340's have them. Pls check the link I posted earlier about their upgrades.

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## TheTallGuy

we have the oldest ERIEYE systems..not the latest. ER version was planned to purchase but since no new F16C/D so no ER..as well.

this is what i think...(ASC-890) Erieye
The original customer, Sweden, continues to operate its Saab 340 aircraft, but through the delivery of pairs of aircraft to Thailand and the UAE its own fleet has been reduced to only two aircraft. These originally flew in a minimally-manned configuration known as FSR890, with all radar data downlinked to ground stations. They were upgraded in 2009 to the current ASC890 standard with three operator consoles to give an airborne control capability. The operators comprise a mission control officer, combat control operator and surveillance operator.

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-...e-surveillance-system-takes-shape-global-6000

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## Slav Defence

*Stick to the topic*

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## airomerix

Pakistan does not have the ER version yet. Period.

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## ziaulislam

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The PAF definitely took delivery of additional Erieye AEW&C systems (the last MoDP report even confirmed the receipt of the 6th system). We don't know whether they're Erieye or Erieye ER, but the cost estimate ($94 M) given by the MoDP suggests it's Erieye.


exactly too cheap for new version..
also, suggest a lot of work(assembly/testing) will be done in the house..as off the shelf cost would have been way higher (3-4X)

if the original version as good as advertised..we don't need the ER for next 15-20 years till fifth-gen comes into play..which wont happen even in 30 years..we arent even seeing any modern threat apart from rafale which will be barely 2 squardons

next AESA will be LCA which looking at track record won't be in service before 2030

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## araz

Blacklight said:


> Then get of this forum, and go to AHQ, and see what they tell you.
> 
> 
> Given that you dont even have basic knowledge of anything, best to quit polluting this thread.


Mr Blacklight.
Please abide by forum rules and either agree to disagree and move on or provide proof of your statement. You have made a statement it is upto you to prove it.
Any more personal insults will result in negative ratings from me and a thread ban from the mods if they agree with my assessement.
Regards
A

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## MastanKhan

araz said:


> Mr Blacklight.
> Please abide by forum rules and either agree to disagree and move on or provide proof of your statement. You have made a statement it is upto you to prove it.
> Any more personal insulta will result in negative ratings from me and a thread ban from the mods if they agree with my assessement.
> Regards
> A




Hi,

In the last 15 years---you never posted anything ORIGINAL---not a single original post---of your own and yet you threaten members who have posted excellent material on this forum---.

You do not have a SINGLE NEGATIVE rating---why---?

How is that possible for a person writing on a defense forum not to have ruffled feathers---?

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## Slav Defence

*I want you all to stop becoming personal with each other. 
*
For heaven's sake, the word "respect" and "mutual understanding" seems to have ceased to exist. It is our job to scrutinize not of member's. If any of you do not agree with the claim made by members, leave it. If you have asked for a source and members seems not willing to provide any of it, just pass on. Matters themselves are self explanatory. Do not try to check each other's eligibility but of your own. I mean this very politely and for everyone. We all should check how well informed and groomed we are rather than checking someone else. Instead of educating others , please educate yourselves. 

_"Yesterday I was smart so I wanted to change the world, today I am wise so that I want to change myself."_

For the last time, for God's sake stick to the topic, please.

regards

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## Trailer23

The Pakistani contingent discusses flight plans after wrapping up Falcon Air Meet 2010 ceremonies at Azraq AB, Jordan. The Air Forces of _Pakistan_, _Jordan_, _United States_ and _United Arab Emirates_ competed in the annual two week event in Jordan hosted by the Royal Jordanian Air Force. The overall winner of the competition was the Royal Jordanian Air Force Team. *(U.S. Air Force photo by Mr. Alan Black)*​

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## araz

Blacklight said:


> Mr.Araz,
> I am abiding by forum rules, you seemed to have missed the obnoxious posts deleted by the admin team.
> 
> Nonetheless, realization has dawned on me that this forum is not defence related, and people are oblivious to anything that happens in the real world, but is not publicly disclosed, via official channels. So why should I bother, please continue chasing your own tails. You all deserve it.
> 
> As to your threat of negative rating, and a ban, mate, threats on an online forum mean zilch. Time to wake up!!
> 
> Regards


Mr Blacklight.
It is not my intention to annoy anyone. I merely pointed out the fact that there are forum rules. Allow me to point out that I have read the whole trail of emails. As far as I remember you argued that latest SAAB erieyes are GAN based. The other posters asked you for proof. And you got progressively more annoyed.
On online fora people often take time to gauge your standing. To give you an example @Bilal Khan 777 was the first one to break the news of one Erieyebeing burnt to cinders and 2 damaged. No one believed him and we all asked for proof. Later on we all found out he is a snior retired PAF officer and right all along. Other posters like @fatman17, @Bilal Khan (Quwa) , @messiach, @Dazzler have all maintained a position because of the quality of posts and content but it takes time for people to recognize and measure your worth. So do not despair, keep contributing and eventually people will either find value in your post or itherwise. Getting angry at being questioned is not helpful. You need a bit of tough skin to survive.
I hope you will head the advice of this old man.
Kind regards. 
PS: I am a very reluctant user of the red button so dont worry about it.
A

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## WebMaster

Lets get back to the topic. If someone is claiming something, please provide proofs. If they can't back it up, only take it with a pinch of salt and move on. Don't argue for the sake of arguing. There are a lot of people who will claim X but are in no position to do so, but want to get reputation or oh i know XYZ from ZZZ official sources. Real people who know the real stuff will never release info until it is ready to do so. All others rely on mummy daddy sources, so listen to them if you want that is your choice, but general recommendation would be to take it with a pinch of salt and move on. Another thing is to respect everyone regardless, that is free of cost.

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## Scorpiooo

araz said:


> Mr Blacklight.
> It is not my intention to annoy anyone. I merely pointed out the fact that there are forum rules. Allow me to point out that I have read the whole trail of emails. As far as I remember you argued that latest SAAB erieyes are GAN based. The other posters asked you for proof. And you got progressively more annoyed.
> On online fora people often take time to gauge your standing. To give you an example @Bilal Khan 777 was the first one to break the news of one Erieyebeing burnt to cinders and 2 damaged. No one believed him and we all asked for proof. Later on we all found out he is a snior retired PAF officer and right all along. Other posters like @fatman17, @Bilal Khan (Quwa) , @messiach, @Dazzler have all maintained a position because of the quality of posts and content but it takes time for people to recognize and measure your worth. So do not despair, keep contributing and eventually people will either find value in your post or itherwise. Getting angry at being questioned is not helpful. You need a bit of tough skin to survive.
> I hope you will head the advice of this old man.
> Kind regards.
> PS: I am a very reluctant user of the red button so dont worry about it.
> A


Agree sir, @Blacklight mostly have valuable posts in forum worth of reading.
About credibility of information we all here provides information recieved from some sources which sometimes can be wrong or information remain classified or cannot share the source due to sensitiveness of source.

But my point is when we request for proof or source of some information we can ask/request gently and in respectfully way there is not need to make group and start trolling that person.

We are not discussing any thing with our enemy spokesperson persons on this forum. We are mostly pakistani and with common approach of sharing and willing whatever is good or bad for our nation and country with intention for better and stable Pakistan in coming days ahead IA

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## Pakistani Fighter

ziaulislam said:


> if the original version as good as advertised


From which distance it can track Rafale?


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## ziaulislam

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> From which distance it can track Rafale?


pretty sure well above 300km
rafale isn't a stealth aircraft 
the problem, however, is rafale threat of meteor AAM IMO

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## ali_raza

ziaulislam said:


> pretty sure well above 300km
> rafale isn't a stealth aircraft
> the problem, however, is rafale threat of meteor AAM IMO


we follow a different ideology then india
where indians count each machine and its ranges
we go in a group with each asset complementing other
we can this was out range out maneuver and outclass anything india has.
including raphal

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

IAU said:


> PROOFS??? I WANT PROOFS NOT JUST YOUR WORDINGS,FROM PAF OR FROM SAAB


No need to be rude. People post various pieces of information on this forum from their sources. No one is forcing anyone to accept said information without additional corroboration.

You can politely say, 'thanks for the information, I'll wait for additional corroboration'.

Those of you who post information from personal sources, if someone does not want to take your word for something, just move along and, if you feel like it, quote your own post when the information does get confirmed to make a point.

Most importantly, be polite and civil during these exchanges.

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## airomerix

For a change.Some vintage.

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## Tomcats

airomerix said:


> For a change.Some vintage.
> 
> View attachment 632774
> View attachment 632775


Wow, those are some very nice high quality shots you got there.

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## Trailer23

The F-104 (Starfighter) - my dads favorite.

I guess back in those days, it made sense.

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## aliyusuf

Trailer23 said:


> The F-104 (Starfighter) - my dads favorite.
> 
> I guess back in those days, it made sense.


Mine too. Got hooked on it when I first saw a parked F-104 Starfighter at Masroor, I was around 4 years old at the time.

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## fatman17

It was met with technical malfunctioning and had to be stopped with help of a rope net on runway after landing. Structural damage was extensive. PAC went to work! Repair almost entire lower fuselage including that most complex circular air intake. Re certified. Operational Now! https://t.co/YnpQCt8oGu

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## fatman17

This happened in 2014/15 not sure about the date.
They were bombing the ttp hideouts when one bomb exploded prematurely upon release this caused extensive damage to the f-16 it was recovered from a flatspin by WC Azman khalil who was the GIB during that mission.


fatman17 said:


> It was met with technical malfunctioning and had to be stopped with help of a rope net on runway after landing. Structural damage was extensive. PAC went to work! Repair almost entire lower fuselage including that most complex circular air intake. Re certified. Operational Now! https://t.co/YnpQCt8oGu
> View attachment 632920

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## Blacklight

fatman17 said:


> It was met with technical malfunctioning and had to be stopped with help of a rope net on runway after landing. Structural damage was extensive. PAC went to work! Repair almost entire lower fuselage including that most complex circular air intake. Re certified. Operational Now! https://t.co/YnpQCt8oGu
> View attachment 632920


The items in yellow, are they composites, or normal aircraft grade metal alloys?


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## LKJ86

Urumqi, China













Via @unnamed-URC from Weibo

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## Enigma SIG

Blacklight said:


> The items in yellow, are they composites, or normal aircraft grade metal alloys?


Primer?


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## Blacklight

Enigma SIG said:


> Primer?


Definitely! But these parts in yellow, weren't the only ones replaced, hence the question.


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## Enigma SIG

Blacklight said:


> Definitely! But these parts in yellow, weren't the only ones replaced, hence the question.


Quite amazed at the incident though; do we know what type of munition was being fired that exploded? From the looks of the primer I guess the aircraft was totaled. Add on top a recovery from a flat spin. Wow.

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## hassan1



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## Safriz

fatman17 said:


> It was met with technical malfunctioning and had to be stopped with help of a rope net on runway after landing. Structural damage was extensive. PAC went to work! Repair almost entire lower fuselage including that most complex circular air intake. Re certified. Operational Now! https://t.co/YnpQCt8oGu
> View attachment 632920


The pilot was given award in a televised ceremony.
ACM was also involved in the operation.
ACM was on the radio with the pilot and both discussed the steps to be taken for stopping the aircraft upon landing.
The video mist be on YouTube

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## khanasifm

Safriz said:


> The pilot was given award in a televised ceremony.
> ACM was also involved in the operation.
> ACM was on the radio with the pilot and both discussed the steps to be taken for stopping the aircraft upon landing.
> The video mist be on YouTube




In war when aircraft are shot up are repaired locally unless there is significant damage and not recoverable mostly done locally

mirage rebuilt factory and especially the Australian package brought rebuilt repair and initial parts / component Repair capability and as well ame capability alternate mission equipment repair / manufacturing capability which also covers F-16

a full squadron worth of mirage were recovered which would have been written off due to damages by these new facilities this experience also play heavily in f-16, t-37 and Saab platforms 

per paf book

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## fatman17

#Throwback JF-17 #Thunder Tail no. 12-138 with kill mark. On 18-06-2017 Thunder shot down Iranian drone Shahed 129 UCAV in Balochistan province 45 km inside Pakistani territory. This remains the sole air to air kill of JF-17. https://t.co/9Xnwdwkfn6

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## Safriz

fatman17 said:


> #Throwback JF-17 #Thunder Tail no. 12-138 with kill mark. On 18-06-2017 Thunder shot down Iranian drone Shahed 129 UCAV in Balochistan province 45 km inside Pakistani territory. This remains the sole air to air kill of JF-17. https://t.co/9Xnwdwkfn6
> View attachment 633004
> View attachment 633005
> View attachment 633006


In 2017 when this happened I posted the news on an FB page with sizeable audience and guess what?
Many Pakistani were getting angry about how PAF dared to shoot down the Holy drone of Holy Iran, while ignoring the fact that it was inside Pakistani territory .
Not only that but those certain type of Pakistani were also putting blame on Pakistan

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## fatman17

I’ve recently found a few days to research Pak AF Mirages. It meant going through all my old notebooks and images. It’s been a joy. Some great interviews I’d never had the time to write up. This ex Lebanese AF dual seater lifts off from Rafiqui AB last year. https://t.co/VliNJwGtqv

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## hassan1



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## fatman17

Zapped

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## hassan1



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## fatman17

A-5C Fantan, along with the MiG-19 Farmer-C, only twin engine aircrafts to serve in #PAF. It was based off MiG-19 and designed to be a ground attack aircraft primarily in CAS role. It was one of the first aircraft to be replaced by JF-17 Thunder in early 2010s. https://t.co/ZfEqYaMvYz

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## fatman17

Another image of the first JF-17N 2P-60 for the Nigerian AF. Known locally as "Sapphire" three JF-17N fighters (2P-60,61,62) will be delivered in November this year, and the pilots are currently undergoing training in Pakistan.

(Images via Huitong's CMA-Blog) https://t.co/WAZv8QCSsJ

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## fatman17

An undisclosed customer contracted Saab to deliver an unspecified number of Erieye airborne early warning and control (AEW&C). The systems, which will be hosted aboard a Saab 2000 twin-turboprop aircraft, are valued at $160 million and will be delivered between 2020 and 2023. While Saab declined to provide further details, the nature of the system, the contract value, and the delivery timelines all indicate that the order is likely to be for between two and three systems. Given that Saab’s primary AEW&C offering is the Bombardier 6000/6500-based GlobalEye, utilizing the Erieye Extended-Range (ER) radar, it is likely that the Saab 2000-based platforms are for a follow-on customer looking to augment their existing fleet, rather than a new customer looking to acquire the latest solution.

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## fatman17

The only two customers already known to operate the Saab 2000 AEW&C are Pakistan and Saudi Arabia.


fatman17 said:


> An undisclosed customer contracted Saab to deliver an unspecified number of Erieye airborne early warning and control (AEW&C). The systems, which will be hosted aboard a Saab 2000 twin-turboprop aircraft, are valued at $160 million and will be delivered between 2020 and 2023. While Saab declined to provide further details, the nature of the system, the contract value, and the delivery timelines all indicate that the order is likely to be for between two and three systems. Given that Saab’s primary AEW&C offering is the Bombardier 6000/6500-based GlobalEye, utilizing the Erieye Extended-Range (ER) radar, it is likely that the Saab 2000-based platforms are for a follow-on customer looking to augment their existing fleet, rather than a new customer looking to acquire the latest solution.

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## hassan1




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## fatman17

Pakistan USA
Lockheed Martin has received a FMS for Pakistani F16s of Sniper, Infrared Search and Track (IRST); and Low Altitude Navigation and Targeting Infrared for Night (LANTIRN) navigation pod (fixed wing) hardware production.

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## DrWatson775

fatman17 said:


> An undisclosed customer contracted Saab to deliver an unspecified number of Erieye airborne early warning and control (AEW&C). The systems, which will be hosted aboard a Saab 2000 twin-turboprop aircraft, are valued at $160 million and will be delivered between 2020 and 2023. While Saab declined to provide further details, the nature of the system, the contract value, and the delivery timelines all indicate that the order is likely to be for between two and three systems. Given that Saab’s primary AEW&C offering is the Bombardier 6000/6500-based GlobalEye, utilizing the Erieye Extended-Range (ER) radar, it is likely that the Saab 2000-based platforms are for a follow-on customer looking to augment their existing fleet, rather than a new customer looking to acquire the latest solution.



Any chance this could be for India? Just saying. I mean the Swedes are not as slippery as the French but who knows; its CoVID19 era.

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## fatman17

No


DrWatson775 said:


> Any chance this could be for India? Just saying. I mean the Swedes are not as slippery as the French but who knows; its CoVID19 era.


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## Akh1112

DrWatson775 said:


> Any chance this could be for India? Just saying. I mean the Swedes are not as slippery as the French but who knows; its CoVID19 era.




Nope, India would not operate a platform we have vast experience with. It is always an awful idea to operate the same equipment as your adversary, they know the weaknesses and strengths inside out, as do you however


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## GriffinsRule

Akh1112 said:


> Nope, India would not operate a platform we have vast experience with. It is always an awful idea to operate the same equipment as your adversary, they know the weaknesses and strengths inside out, as do you however


They are also building their own so not India

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## Reddawn

fatman17 said:


> The only two customers already known to operate the Saab 2000 AEW&C are Pakistan and Saudi Arabia.



How many Saab 2000 AEW&C's will the PAF have in service after this order? 10 or 11? Interesting, how the PAF is bolstering its Saab 2000 AEW&C fleet and not the ZDK fleet. Could the ZDK fleet not be up to scratch?

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## fatman17

Saab has compatibility with western systems not ZDK perhaps.


Reddawn said:


> How many Saab 2000 AEW&C's will the PAF have in service after this order? 10 or 11? Interesting, how the PAF is bolstering its Saab 2000 AEW&C fleet and not the ZDK fleet. Could the ZDK fleet not be up to scratch?


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## ARMalik

fatman17 said:


> Saab has compatibility with western systems not ZDK perhaps.



It can be done by interfacing Link-16 and Link-17. These two are simply Communication protocols, and like all protocols, they can be made to talk each other. There might be small delays in communication (milliseconds) between the two when exchanging information.

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## loanranger

Notice the little taliban refrence

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## DrWatson775

loanranger said:


> View attachment 633868
> 
> Notice the little taliban refrence



Why does it look like Pizza Hut logo?


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## fatman17

The rumoured mirage upgrade is not that simple according to Alan warnes. 

"It wasn’t as simple as that!  Israel was heavily involved in the Cheetah programme. And the Cheetah E is still a sensitive subject now."

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## fatman17

That's true but remember PAFs love for all things western


ARMalik said:


> It can be done by interfacing Link-16 and Link-17. These two are simply Communication protocols, and like all protocols, they can be made to talk each other. There might be small delays in communication (milliseconds) between the two when exchanging information.

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## fatman17

Belgian [emoji1045] Mirage-Vs forming a #Delta most of them ended up becoming part of Pakistan Air Force’s #MirageV fleet in 1990s. https://t.co/NGSyBL40At

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## fatman17

fatman17 said:


> Belgian [emoji1045] Mirage-Vs forming a #Delta most of them ended up becoming part of Pakistan Air Force’s #MirageV fleet in 1990s. https://t.co/NGSyBL40At
> View attachment 634018


Correction, not to PAF, my bad


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## MIRauf

That Patch looks so fake, Doubt that PAF will allow any of it's staff sport such a Patch. It's like someone created it to incite hate.

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## loanranger

MIRauf said:


> That Patch looks so fake, Doubt that PAF will allow any of it's staff sport such a Patch. It's like someone created it to incite hate.


Do you also deny that PAF has bombed TTP hide outs? We have bombed them ! Let alone being worried about inciting hate.


----------



## Mustang-87

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1169716286890401792
Probably the best picture of F-7pg 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1070321931222700032

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## airomerix

loanranger said:


> View attachment 633868
> 
> Notice the little taliban refrence



This is not PAF patch. Neither has it been seen by anyone.

This is most likely a PS job.

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## StormBreaker

airomerix said:


> This is not PAF patch. Neither has it been seen by anyone.
> 
> This is most likely a PS job.


Bhai yar ye block 3 kab agli flight lega publicly ?

Kuch to samjhao yar inlogon ko ke itna bhi mat tarsao ke dil hi uth jaye phir

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## Akh1112

StormBreaker said:


> Bhai yar ye block 3 kab agli flight lega publicly ?
> 
> Kuch to samjhao yar inlogon ko ke itna bhi mat tarsao ke dil hi uth jaye phir




im guessing november/october time for induction of the first batch of aircraft into the PAF.


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## StormBreaker

Akh1112 said:


> im guessing november/october time for induction of the first batch of aircraft into the PAF.


Next year according to ACM

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## loanranger

airomerix said:


> This is not PAF patch. Neither has it been seen by anyone.
> 
> This is most likely a PS job.


It is possible I guess. I thought it was legit though earlier.


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## fatman17

No 9 sqdn Griffins

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## fatman17

#PAF’s No. 09 Squadron “Griffins” at Nellis AF Base, Nevada for Exercise Red Flag [emoji626]. Griffins is the elitist & most senior squadron of #Pakistan Air Force. https://t.co/NF446a1A6t

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## fatman17

Satellite imagery & IMINT capture a deployed Aerostat . Located in Gujarat, #India near the Pakistan border.
An EL/M 2083 Long range radar is carried by the aerostat, allowing it to conduct low-level air and sea surveillance of Pakistan's southern command.
#IMINT #OSINT https://t.co/riO9bVmdmE

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## MIRauf

loanranger said:


> Do you also deny that PAF has bombed TTP hide outs? We have bombed them ! Let alone being worried about inciting hate.



I do not deny it, however that Patch is akin to mocking, that is something called below the belt.


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## ziaulislam

Akh1112 said:


> Nope, India would not operate a platform we have vast experience with. It is always an awful idea to operate the same equipment as your adversary, they know the weaknesses and strengths inside out, as do you however


why would they have many other options..



fatman17 said:


> An undisclosed customer contracted Saab to deliver an unspecified number of Erieye airborne early warning and control (AEW&C). The systems, which will be hosted aboard a Saab 2000 twin-turboprop aircraft, are valued at $160 million and will be delivered between 2020 and 2023. While Saab declined to provide further details, the nature of the system, the contract value, and the delivery timelines all indicate that the order is likely to be for between two and three systems. Given that Saab’s primary AEW&C offering is the Bombardier 6000/6500-based GlobalEye, utilizing the Erieye Extended-Range (ER) radar, it is likely that the Saab 2000-based platforms are for a follow-on customer looking to augment their existing fleet, rather than a new customer looking to acquire the latest solution.


either pakistan or saudis..


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## Akh1112

ziaulislam said:


> why would they have many other options..
> 
> 
> either pakistan or saudis..




The Indian's also have a requirement for 360 degree coverage, the Erieye has two blind spots of 30 degrees, making it infeasible for Indian use, they like their Phalcon AWACS hence they keep pushing for them even at their ABSURD cost. For the latter, its more than likely Pakistan, we have 3 Saab 2000's that we had bought in 2018 for them to be used on

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## Bossman

Very interesting video from PAF You Tube Channel. First time I have seen such a direct message with an Indian flag on an official PAF video. Was India thinking of doing something from the sea, which was picked up by Pakistan and this is a warning?

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## fatman17

Today, Pakistan Armed Forces gifted a plane load of PPE to U.S. Armed Forces as a token of friendship & solidarity during the COVID-19 pandemic. Senior US officials joined our team at the hand-over ceremony at Andrews Air Base. @OfficialDGISPR @ForeignOfficePk
@fema @StateDept https://t.co/yWQzX3SMht

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## Cookie Monster

fatman17 said:


> It was met with technical malfunctioning and had to be stopped with help of a rope net on runway after landing. Structural damage was extensive. PAC went to work! Repair almost entire lower fuselage including that most complex circular air intake. Re certified. Operational Now! https://t.co/YnpQCt8oGu
> View attachment 632920


I have asked this before but never could get an answer...if this F16 was repaired at PAC...does that mean Pak has the capability to produce structural components for F16s? Or were the parts imported from US...and locally assembled? All I've ever heard is of the strict control US has over F16s and Pak isn't allowed to make any modifications...hence why I'm wondering how PAC was able to work on it(with US permission perhaps?)

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## Safriz

fatman17 said:


> A-5C Fantan, along with the MiG-19 Farmer-C, only twin engine aircrafts to serve in #PAF. It was based off MiG-19 and designed to be a ground attack aircraft primarily in CAS role. It was one of the first aircraft to be replaced by JF-17 Thunder in early 2010s. https://t.co/ZfEqYaMvYz
> View attachment 633258


In the early 80s i remember watching this aircraft regularly flying low above my house when we were playing in our lawn. It looked like a flying shoe due to oversized drop tank mounted in the middle.

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## GriffinsRule

Cookie Monster said:


> I have asked this before but never couldn't get an answer...if this F16 was repaired at PAC...does that mean Pak has the capability to produce structural components for F16s? Or were the parts imported from US...and locally assembled? All I've ever heard is of the strict control US has over F16s and Pak isn't allowed to make any modifications...hence why I'm wondering how PAC was able to work on it(with US permission perhaps?)


It was recovered with support from the OEM of course.

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## fatman17

TV shots shows launch of RA'AD ALCM from a Mirage aircraft.

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## ghazi52

The Legend Flt. Lt. (later Air Marshal) Malik Nur Khan Awan with his father Capt. Malik Mihr Khan Awan and Nawab Malik Amir Muhammad Khan Awan of Kalabagh in pre-Independence days.

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## syed_yusuf

fatman17 said:


> TV shots shows launch of RA'AD ALCM from a Mirage aircraft.
> View attachment 634604
> View attachment 634605
> View attachment 634606
> View attachment 634607


Is this new

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## ghazi52

Pakistan’s goodwill donation of surgical masks and protective suits to FEMA US Government arrived via C-130 tactical airlifter.


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## ghazi52

__ https://www.facebook.com/


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## Readerdefence

ghazi52 said:


> Pakistan’s goodwill donation of surgical masks and protective suits to FEMA US Government arrived via C-130 tactical airlifter.


Hi nice pictures & the nicest fmask is in first picture one the American airforce officer is wearing
Thank you

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## Trailer23




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## fatman17

No, l haven't seen it


syed_yusuf said:


> Is this new


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## airomerix

Some very interesting formations.

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## hassan1



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## ghazi52

1945: Two Hawker Hurricane Mk. IIc fighters are being worked on by the ground crew outside the Miranshah fort..


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## Trailer23



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## araz

Trailer23 said:


>


I wish the compere had done a little bit of homework. I see glimmers where he wants to say things and then says I dont know now as I have been away from the PAF for long. Lastly I think he has a lot of regrets about not making it further up the ranks. 
A


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## GriffinsRule

Music while having an interview is so distracting and in such poor editing judgement. I stopped listening after a few minutes.


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## fatman17

Is the Chinese JH-7 an Answer to the Pakistan Air Force’s Deep Strike Needs?

Despite its potent display of combat capability during the Balakot standoff, the PAF requires additional platforms to balance against a much larger Indian Air Force.

By Ammad Mailk

May 27, 2020
Is the Chinese JH-7 an Answer to the Pakistan Air Force’s Deep Strike Needs?

Credit: Alert5 via Wikimedia Commons

Amidst sustained tensions between the two nuclear armed South Asian neighbors, the Indian Air Force is scheduled to receive the first batch of four state-of-the-art Rafale fighter jets by the end of July 2020.
The 7.87 billion euro Rafale deal between France and New Delhi for a total order of 36 jets was finally inked in September 2016, after much controversy and delay. According to the delivery schedule, the Indian Air Force shall receive all jets by May 2022. Armed with Meteor missiles and a highly sophisticated electronic warfare suite, New Delhi’s Rafale acquisition threatens to tilt the balance of power in South Asia in the IAF’s favor.

The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has been following the Indian Air Force’s modernization program with keen interest, but budget constraints mean that Islamabad’s chances of acquiring a fighter jet of similar capability are slim. Instead, Pakistan seems to be focusing on the latest variant of its indigenous JF-17 Thunder multi-role fighter.

A prototype of the new JF-17 Block 3 fighter first flew in December 2019 and the jet has since undergone a further period of testing. By inducting an AESA radar-capable Block 3 variant in numbers by 2025, the PAF is confident that it can deny the larger Indian Air Force victory in a future conflict. Numerous reports have also hinted that the Block 3 would be armed with the much vaunted Chinese PL-15 missiles, which out-range everything in the IAF’s inventory, barring the Meteors.

Furthermore, unlike the IAF’s emphasis on induction of new platforms, the Pakistan Air Force has in recent years focused more on weapon systems and sensor upgrades to their existing fleet. This strategy paid dividends during the aerial engagement between the two air forces’ on February 27, 2019, as the PAF successfully infiltrated Indian airspace in Kashmir and managed to shoot down an IAF MiG-21.

However, despite the PAF’s well executed operation in February 2019, the Indian Air Force is equipped with aircraft that are both qualitatively and numerically superior to much of the PAF’s inventory. These include the IAF’s frontline air superiority fighter, the Sukhoi Su-30MKI, and the highly capable Mirage 2000 multirole aircraft. On the other hand, the PAF still relies largely on its limited fleet of F-16 Fighting Falcons as its primary air asset. The PAF has no more than 75 F-16 jets and a significant number of those are of the vintage Block A variant, delivered to Islamabad in the 1980s. Other aircraft include 100-plus JF-17s of the Block 1 and Block 2 variants, as well as a large operational fleet of the 1960s-era Mirage 3 fighter.

In the event of an all-out conventional war, the PAF’s limited frontline air assets are at risk of getting overstretched. More worryingly for Islamabad, the Indian Navy operates a sizeable independent air arm, which can be utilized in a conflict scenario to target Pakistan’s coastal industrial hub of Karachi. The much smaller Pakistan Navy does not operate fighter jets, instead relying on the PAF for aerial maritime strike operations.

This creates additional problems for the PAF, which is tasked with confronting the IAF along its long vulnerable eastern border as well as countering the Indian Navy’s air arm on the southern coast. The PAF’s problem of diverting much-needed air assets to the coast can be resolved by the acquisition of a cost-efficient aerial strike platform for the Pakistan Navy. Given Islamabad’s intimate relationship with China and the economic problems currently gripping the country, acquiring the JH-7 heavy strike fighter can both provide its navy with much needed aerial strike capability as well as free up PAF’s core assets to engage with the IAF for supremacy over the battlefields of Kashmir and Punjab.

The JH-7, while utilizing an old air frame, is a highly effective aircraft for deep strike operations. The jet first flew in 1988 and small numbers were delivered to the Chinese People’s Liberation Army Air Force during the 1990s. An improved version of the JH-7 fighter-bomber, also known by the NATO designation Flounder, began to be inducted in large numbers after 2004, after the Chinese aviation industry was able to indigenously manufacture a derivative of the Rolls Royce Spey engine. The Spey engine was designed specifically by the British for development of a low flying naval strike aircraft to counter the Soviet Navy in the Cold War.

Faced with cuts in defense expenditure and decreasing global influence after World War II, Britain could no longer afford to operate a sizable navy to deter the Soviet threat. Instead, the British opted for developing naval strike aircraft, such as the Blackburn Buccaneer, to extract a heavy toll on large Soviet Navy cruisers in a future conflict. The Spey engines were later utilized on the Royal Air Force’s fleet of F-4 Phantoms, giving the aircraft greater range and a shorter takeoff distance.

In addition to their low maintenance and impressive safety record, the Spey engine’s utility lies in the fact that it is designed specifically for sustained low altitude flight below the radar horizon of enemy naval vessels. Despite significant advances in jet engine development since the Cold War, the majority of engines today are designed for mid-to-high altitude flight. Flying at low altitude to avoid radar detection for longer periods thus decreases much of the engines’ range.

The JH-7 also complements the Pakistan Navy’s combat doctrine, which is based on the anti-access/area denial (A2/AD) blueprint. The PN’s three Khalid-class submarines form the linchpin of their A2/AD strategy, with the wartime objective of preventing an attempted blockade of the vital Karachi port by the Indian Navy. Acquisition of the JH -7 by Pakistan would provide Islamabad with lethal capability to considerably limit the maneuvering capacity of the Indian Navy in the proximity of Karachi port.

Also, the JH-7, with its longer combat range, heavy payload capacity, and ability to fly under enemy radar cover provides Islamabad with an offensive capacity targeted at India’s protracted western coastline. Hence, acquisition of the JH-7 by Pakistan serves both defensive and offensive purposes. The improved JH-7A variant currently in service with the PLA Air Force is capable to carry over seven tonnes of armament, including four KD-88/YJ-83 anti-ship missiles.


The capability to carry long range anti-ship missiles, which can be launched more than 100 miles away from their targets, means that the JH-7 is able to utilize an asymmetric “hit and run” strategy before enemy air defenses can effectively engage with it. This doctrine was perhaps most aptly demonstrated by the Argentine Air Force during the 1982 Falklands War, as French Super Etendard strike aircraft armed with Exocet missiles sank two British warships.

One alternative to the JH-7 for Pakistan is its existing arsenal of cruise missiles, but this option has its own pitfalls. First, cruise missiles follow a predictable trajectory and are vulnerable to interception by India’s air defense network and fighter aircraft such as the Sukhoi 30 MKI. Second, the use of cruise missiles, even in an all-out conflict, presents a significant leap in terms of escalation. As such, a cruise missile attack by either New Delhi or Islamabad can lead to an eventual nuclear exchange.

Having extensive prior experience in operating and maintaining Chinese-built aircraft such as the H-5, J-6, and F-7, acquisition of the JH-7 by Pakistan and its effective combat use for the heavy strike role presents an ideal “stop-gap” solution for the PAF until sufficient numbers of the JF-17 Block 3 are inducted. The Chinese also appear eager to sell much of their JH-7 fleet, showcasing the fighter bomber for sale at air shows such as the China International Aviation and Aerospace Exhibition. As prospects of inducting foreign jets from Western countries appear bleak, the JH-7 appears to be the PAF’s only viable option to assert itself in a volatile region.


Ammad Malik is a defense and security analyst based in Lahore, Pakistan. His work focuses on Pakistan’s relationship with the Middle East and issues concerning military strategy.

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## fatman17

*Rattles and Tigers*
Pakistan





In 1969 in the Pakistan Air Force, a “Rattles” aerobatic display team was created at Sargodha Air Base flying with Shenyang F-6 (a Chinese-built MiG-19) fighters which were painted all black. The team existed for only a few months.

In 1980, another F-6 (MiG-19) aerobatic team, known as the “Tigers”, was created at Sargodha. This time all 5 aircraft were painted in special colors - yellow and red. This team lasted a little longer than its predecessor.




 



someone was looking for this informatiom

*F-16 production takes off at Greenville facility with finalized contracts*
stlbeacon.org - 5/23/2020




A little over a year since Greenville’s Lockheed Martin Corp. facility welcomed its first production line, the aerospace manufacturer remains on track to introduce South Carolina’s first F-16 Fighting Falcon within two years — with some potential new customers in the works.

See the full article at stlbeacon.org

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## LKJ86

LKJ86 said:


> Urumqi, China
> View attachment 632949
> View attachment 632950
> View attachment 632951
> View attachment 632952
> 
> Via @unnamed-URC from Weibo


Another PAF's IL-78 in China




Via @Echooey from Weibo

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## Incog_nito

Is PAF open to acquire some more T-37 variants


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## mingle

Incog_nito said:


> Is PAF open to acquire some more T-37 variants


No Sir


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## Incog_nito

mingle said:


> No Sir


But they seems quite interested.

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## mingle

Incog_nito said:


> But they seems quite interested.


Yes but they are too old hope they will replace soon by better planes


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## fatman17

*JF-17 Thunder – Lightning Strikes Twice*
by Alan Warnes
- June 15, 2019, 3:30 AM




The Pak-Sino JF-17 Thunder has flown over 40,000 hours in service with six squadrons, including 2 ‘Minhasians’ Sqn. The fighter is set to mature even more rapidly with the integration of an AESA radar in the Block 3 JF-17s. (Photos: Alan Warnes)
Three Pakistan Air Force (PAF) JF-17s are attending this year’s Paris Air Show. The type will be making a welcome visit after the Pak-Sino-developed Thunder visited the event in 2015, and a lot has happened to the program since then.

Right now the last three Block 2s are on the Aircraft Manufacturing Factory (AMF) final assembly line at Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) Kamra, which will eventually help to equip a seventh operational unit later this year. Meanwhile, the first JF-17 has undergone a major overhaul at PAC Kamra’s Aircraft Repair Factory, and there is a dual-seat JF-17B, 17-601, undergoing test and evaluation in Pakistan. A decision from the PAF leadership on a new AESA radar for the Block 3 JF-17s is pending and is expected by November, followed by its first operational sortie early next year. Then, in deals that were signed in late-2017, AMF will assemble 50 Block 3 JF-17s and 26 JF-17Bs. Next year Air Engineering Depot 102 at PAF Base Faisal will start overhauling the jet's Klimov RD93 powerplant. 

There is a lot going on to occupy the minds of the PAF leadership, and operationally the JF-17 is playing a major part in the defense of Pakistan’s skies, with six operational squadrons. During the PAF’s recent confrontation with the Indian Air Force, known in Pakistan as Operation Swift Retort, PAF Chief of the Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan told *AIN* in mid-April, “The aircraft performed very well against the IAF Mirage 2000s and their Mica missiles, as well as the MiG-21 Bison and its R-73 Archer AAMs.”

On the export front, Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) has delivered six JF-17s (four single-seaters and two dual seaters) to the Myanmar Air Force, while PAC has sold three examples to Nigeria, and these should be delivered after the pilots are trained in Pakistan. Sales and marketing of the jet were split between PAC and China National Aero-Technology Import & Export Corporation (CATIC) in 2015. CATIC is engaged in discussions with Egypt surrounding the Block 3s, while PAC continues to talk to Malaysia. 



*Production Line*
More than 100 JF-17s have now come off the AMF assembly line, where the wings, horizontal tail, vertical tail, and forward fuselage, representing 58 percent of the fighter, are built. They are matched with the remaining 42 percent built in Chengdu in China, including the mid- and rear- fuselages that are airfreighted to PAC Kamra. The three fuselage sections are mated at the JF-17 subassembly line and are pushed through on a large trolley to one of the four docks in the final assembly facility. 

That’s when the avionics, wiring, undercarriage, harnesses, and Klimov RD93 powerplant are added, while the Martin-Baker Mk16 ejection seat comes later. The aircraft’s air-to-air refueling probes are not necessarily fitted on the assembly line, although all the necessary plumbing has been put in place since the production of Block 2 13-129. 

After being towed down to the flight test shed, the newly built JF-17s are put through five functional check flights (FCFs) by one of the four qualified test pilots based at the co-located Test and Evaluation Squadron (TES). Three PAF pilots have qualified at the Boscombe Down-based Empire Test Pilot School for the JF-17, but now most of them go to Xian in China to get their qualifications. When the author met Squadron Leader Ali in April, he was about to test-fly the latest JF-17 to leave the assembly line. He went through a six months training program in China after flying with two operational JF-17 squadrons. Working alongside him in the flight test shed was Boscombe-qualified Group Captain Imran, who spent two years during the early days of the JF-17 test program at Chengdu flying the prototypes and was more recently the first JF-17 Combat Commanders School (CCS) commanding officer. He told *AIN*, “During the FCFs we push the aircraft to the limit, right through the complete envelope, to assess the handling qualities, checking the systems and aircraft performance.”

Once the FCFs are completed the PAF then puts the JF-17 through a further check flight and if there are no snags, the aircraft will be officially handed over.

PAC chairman Air Marshall Ahmer Shahzad told *AIN*, “Production of subassemblies has already started for the first two 50 Block 3 aircraft, to be assembled next year, and will be followed by another 12 in 2021, 2022, 2023, and 2024. We will assemble eight dual-seaters this year, followed by 14 in 2020, and the remaining four in 2021.”

Building the JF-17 since 2009 has catapulted PAC into the serious business of fighter production, a feat that not many countries can boast, particularly in Asia. The chairman said he is keen to build on this. The company has already built a high-speed aerial target and is close to the completion of an indigenous UAV. 





Having flown around 100 hours of test and evaluation sorties, the first JF-17B to be delivered to Pakistan was having an air-to-air refuelling system fitted in mid-April.


*Block 3 Jets*
The JF-17 Block 3 enhancements will involve new avionics, including a helmet-mounted display and a holographic wide-angle head-up display, better electronic warfare systems with integrated self-protection kit, as well as a missile approach and warning system, an increased payload, and more sophisticated weapons like a fifth-generation short-range air-to-air missile. It will be the ultimate JF-17, and with an AESA radar will have the capability to employ longer-range weapons and track multiple aircraft. 

A decision on a new AESA radar for the Block 3s is expected to be made by the end of the year. There are now three Chinese contenders, which were all shown at last year’s Zhuhai Air Show, while Leonardo’s Grifo-E is still on the table.

Nanjing Research Institute of Electronics Technology's KLJ-7A is being marketed by China Electronics Technology Group Corporation in air- and liquid-cooling options. The second contender, which was displayed at the Zhuhai Air Show last November along with the two Nanjing examples, comes from Leihua Electronic Technology Research Institute (LETRI), another air-cooling AESA known as the LKF601E. AVIC has thrown its weight behind this option and claims it was the first air-cooling radar. Replacing the JF-17’s original KLJ-7 is simply a case of taking out the old system and inserting the new one. The PAF’s Flight Test Group is currently working the options.

*Weapons Options*
The PAF’s JF-17s are operational with the SD-10 beyond visual range air-to-air missile (AAM) with a data link and initial mid-course guidance, PL-5EII infrared short-range AAM, C-802 anti-shipping missile, and a stand-off capability courtesy of its Indigenous Range Extension Kit integrated with the Mk80 series of general-purpose bombs. The PAF chief of air staff recently told *AIN* that the JF-17 is better than many contemporary aircraft in three areas but would not provide any more details, although the air-to-sea mode is undoubtedly one of them.





A large number of weapons that could be integrated on to the JF-17 by customers, were on view at Zhuhai Air show last November.


At IDEF 19, held in Istanbul in early May, an Aselsan source confirmed that deliveries of the first of 50 Aselsan targeting pods for the JF-17s will commence "within a few months," which will provide the JF-17 with a laser-designator capability, working with JTACs on the ground in the air-to-land integration role. 

Air Commodore Rashid Habib, JF-17 deputy chief project director, told the audience at the IDEAS 18 Air Power Conference in Karachi, that the JF-17 had flown 40,000 operational hours. He added that the JF-17B would be fitted with a missionized rear cockpit for combat training and operations, a three-axis fly-by-wire kit, and a fifth-generation advanced short-range air-to-air missile.


Aircraft



https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2019-06-15/jf-17-thunder-lightning-strikes-twice

Why India Shouldn’t Underestimate the Pakistani Air Force’s JF-17 Thunder

March-2nd-2019




Pakistani Air Force JF-17 Thunder Single Engine Light Fighter



The Pakistani Air Force’s JF-17 Thunder single engine light fighter played a key role in clashes with the Indian Air Force in late February 2019, and were responsible for both of the service’s claimed air to air kills against Indian aircraft. The Pakistani military currently deploys two major variants of the fighter, the Block I variant which entered service from 2007 and the Block II variant which entered production in 2013. Approximately 25 Block II variants of the JF-17 are currently being manufactured in Pakistan annually, with plans to terminate production in favour of the upcoming JF-17 Block III in the early 2020s. A twin seat variant of the Block II fighter, the JF-17B, entered service in December 2017. Single engine variants, however, compromise the vast majority of the fleet at present. 









JF-17B Twin Seat Fighter




Much like the Indian MIG-21 Bison, an upgraded variant of the venerated design which according to Indian reports was highly successful against a Pakistani F-16 - likely due to its high end avionics, electronic warfare, jamming and missile systems which are all of the fourth generation, the JF-17 has long been underestimated for a number of reasons. The airframe is loosely based on that of the MiG-21 - an evolution of the Chinese J-7 design - but is considerably more capable than that of any other variant or derivative. The fighter’s engines produce little over half the thrust of the Indian Air Force’s MiG-29 - one third that of the elite Su-30MKI - giving it an inferior thrust/weight ratio when fully armed. These are compensated for by a number of factors, including its access to state of the art sensors and munitions - including the Chinese PL-12 long range air to air missile - an analogue to the American AIM-120C - and the YJ-12 anti ship cruise missile. The latter makes the aircraft a potentially highly lethal ship hunter, in some ways comparable to India's Brahmos cruise missile, and its deployment is an effective asymmetric asset against the large Indian surface fleet.









JF-17 with YJ-12 Anti Ship Cruise Missiles




The JF-17 is relatively simple both to operate and maintain, far moreso that the F-16 or MiG-29, and the costs of doing so are also extremely low. The while the aircraft is slower and less manoeuvrable than the F-16, it compensates with a higher altitude and arguably far superior options for its weapons loadout. Block II variants deploy data links and high end electronic capabilities which early F-16 and MiG-29 variants both lacked, while their avionics are also considerably more sophisticated. The fighters’ NRIET KLJ-7 X band fire control radars are also highly capable - variants of the Chengdu J-10’s formidable KLJ-10 - and are capable of tracking up to ten targets at ranges of over 105km. Data links allow the aircraft to potentially make use of longer ranged munitions, particularly when operating alongside AWACS platforms capable of guiding missiles beyond the range of the fighters’ onboard radars. As a key strength of the JF-17 is its compatibility with high end Chinese munitions, it is highly possible that Block II variants could in future receive longer range munitions which would benefit from such guidance - with more advanced variants of the PL-12 reportedly also planned for deployment by the upcoming JF-17 Block III. 









Pakistani Air Force JF-17 Fighter with PL-12 Air to Air Missiles





Ultimately the JF-17 remains a highly capable fourth generation fighter - more than a match for India’s MiG-21 and Mirage 2000 single engine light fighters and potentially capable of posing a threat to medium weight platforms such as the MiG-29 and Rafale - though likely still struggling against the Su-30MKI. The design is set to be enhanced considerably in the near future with the induction of the Block III variant, which will reportedly deploy a new radar, an infra red search and tracking system (IRST), helmet mounted display, new electronic warfare and jamming systems, and potentially even PL-15 air to air missiles - which considerably outrange anything currently in the Indian arsenal.



Pakistani Air Force JF-17 Thunder Single Engine Light Fighter

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## hassan1



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## airomerix

A guest today - RAF C-17 at Chakala.

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## fatman17

*Keeping PAF Mirages flying*
Published in Show Daily 2018 - Day 2

By
Asian Military Review
-
December 20, 2018



Inside the Mirage Overhaul Wing. Around ten Mirages are worked on at a time.




 

 
*Operating a fleet of around 100 1960s-era Dassault Mirages III/Vs means the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is challenged to keep them airworthy. Fortunately, in 1978, just a decade after buying its initial batch of 24 Mirage IIIEP, DP and RPs the PAF leadership had set up its Mirage Rebuild Factory.*


Today, the facility has worked on 350Mirages and 2,280 ATAR 09C engines which power the French delta-winged jet. In addition, there has been the recovery of 19 structurally damaged aircraft, upgrade of 36 retired ex-Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) Mirage IIIs to the Retrofit of Strike Element (ROSE1) version and modernisation of 14 Mirage VEFs with the ROSE III. When the aircraft were more recently modernised with air-to-air refuelling systems, it was the MRF which integrated the Mirage Pressurised Refuelling (MPR) into the jets.

Right from the outset, the PAF wanted to overhaul its Mirage fleet in Pakistan. Sending them back to France was costly and lengthy too – with the aircraft being out of service for 18 months. Time, it could not afford while tension with its old foe, India existed.

Work to set up the factory Initially known as Project-741, was given the green light in March 1974. All 24 Mirage IIIEP, DP and RPs purchased in1967 would require an overhaul in 1975, approximately nine years after their manufacture. By then 28 brand new Mirage VPAs had also been delivered and the plan was to overhaul all the Mirage IIIs by 1978, then the Mirage Vs. Facilities to work on the ‘Delta’, their components and ATAR 09C engines were put in place. On May 3, 1978 the first Mirage IIIEP, 67-101(later named ‘Old Baba’) was flown to Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) Kamra, by Wing Commander Saeed Anwar, who ironically went on to become the PAC Kamra director general from 1997 to 1999. Eleven days after the jet arrived, on May 14the MRF was inaugurated within the new factory, commanded by Air Commodore Atta Illahi Sheikh.

On 11 December 1979, 67-101 made its first flight after overhaul and handed back to the PAF on 20 February 1980. A large ceremony that day, saw the President of Pakistan, the late General Muhammad Zia-ul-Haq thank all those concerned for their tireless work in setting up the rebuild factory within such a short time. By 1987, all the original PAF Mirages had been overhauled. 

Aircraft accidents, eventually led to a Fuselage Structural Repair Facility being built. After Mirage V 70-415 was involved in an accident, Dassault was approached for a damage assessment and then repair of the jet. A fuselage repair jig was subsequently ordered which in May 1989, was installed in the original production hangar built in 1978, that was standing idle. The high cost of repairing one of these aircraft abroad coupled with a long lead in time, saw the Structures Wing repairing aircraft within months. To date, 19 PAF Mirages – a squadron strength, has been recovered at a minimal cost. 

In 1980, a Wing Refurbishing Facility was set up from equipment acquired from Australia under Blue Flash V programme and was soon joined by a ‘lifting and turning jig’ and a wing repair jig. The investment made in this equipment in the 1990s has led to millions of dollars of savings being made over the intervening years. One of the major issues with the Mirage these days is the wings, but this department is helping to combat that issue.

The WRF has repaired 19 Mirages over the years, and has helped to increase the Mirage fleet Right now, the PAF is facing problems of cracked ribs in the wings so the WRF is replacing any damaged structures. The wings are regularly monitored with x-rays, and if required personnel open the wings to replace the cracked ribs then close them to provide a new life.

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## Path-Finder

the jh_7 thread is closed. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1266641143107915776

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1266641406736678913

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1266641623288623104

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## Akh1112

Path-Finder said:


> the jh_7 thread is closed.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1266641143107915776
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1266641406736678913
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1266641623288623104




Bahaha i have never heard such BS before


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## ghazi52

A compass check being done on a Harvard B358 - picture taken in Karachi on 19th Dec 1949.









Risalpur, January 1964 - T-6G shivering in freak snowfall. 










T-6G lineup at Risalpur - circa 1959.

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## Syed1.

Path-Finder said:


> the jh_7 thread is closed.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1266641143107915776
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1266641406736678913
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1266641623288623104


Aain baain shaain

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## Ahmet Pasha

It used to snow in Rawalpindi even by some anecdotes I heard until temperatures began to rise.


ghazi52 said:


> A compass check being done on a Harvard B358 - picture taken in Karachi on 19th Dec 1949.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Risalpur, January 1964 - T-6G shivering in freak snowfall.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> T-6G lineup at Risalpur - circa 1959.

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## Path-Finder

Akh1112 said:


> Bahaha i have never heard such BS before





Syed1. said:


> Aain baain shaain



don't be mean to the jh-7 crowd. there are many!

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## fatman17

"The Pakistani Air Force (PAF) has proven the most die-hard user, having bought 96 new-build aircraft in the 1960s and 1970s, including the unique Exocet-compatible Mirage 5PA3, and then as mentioned acquiring 50 ex-Aussie Mirages in 1990. The Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) managed to get all but five of the Aussie machines back to flight condition, giving them an avionics update under the "Refit Of Strike Element (ROSE) I" program, conducted in collaboration with the French SAGEM firm. The other five Aussie Mirages were cannibalized for spares.

The ROSE I machines featured a head-up display (HUD), "hands on throttle & stick (HOTAS)" controls, a modernized cockpit layout, a modernized navigation system with an inertial unit and GPS satellite system receiver, defensive countermeasures systems, plus a FIAR Grifo M multimode radar. They were then followed by a batch of 39 AA hand-me-down Mirage 5 machines updated by SAGEM to the "ROSE II" and "ROSE III" configurations. The primary change in ROSE II was addition of a "forward looking infrared (FLIR)" imager and a laser rangefinder in a fairing under the cockpit, coupled to a low-level flight system and targeting system; the Grifo M radar was not fitted, these machines being optimized for the low-level night attack role. ROSE III was similar, but had improved avionics. The Pakistanis also kitted at least some of their Mirages with inflight refueling probes.

That wasn't the end of it, the PAF then acquiring ten Lebanese Mirages, which were returned to flight status; 13 Spanish Mirages, all used for spares; and 50 Libyan Mirages, mostly used for spares. That gave a total of 96 + 50 + 39 + 10 + 13 + 50 == 258 Mirages acquired by Pakistan. Mirages were still in service with the PAF in 2019, but they are to finally be retired in favor of the Chinese JF-17 fighter, a much-improved derivative of the Russian Mikoyan MiG-21. "

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## Armchair

fatman17 said:


> a much-improved derivative of the Russian Mikoyan MiG-21.



What the....

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## Dil Pakistan




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## fatman17

That's a standard western narrative


Armchair said:


> What the....

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## fatman17

Allegedly this JF-17B is carrying two 250kg Fuel Air Explosive bombs but some poster question it as being a faked image. 

However if I'm not mistaken, I remember that strange bomb from Zhuhai... but I will check. https://t.co/tXJmoeiGnX

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## Tamiyah

fatman17 said:


> Allegedly this JF-17B is carrying two 250kg Fuel Air Explosive bombs but some poster question it as being a faked image.
> 
> However if I'm not mistaken, I remember that strange bomb from Zhuhai... but I will check. https://t.co/tXJmoeiGnX
> View attachment 637213
> View attachment 637214


Could you post this in JF-17B section..?



fatman17 said:


> Allegedly this JF-17B is carrying two 250kg Fuel Air Explosive bombs but some poster question it as being a faked image.
> 
> However if I'm not mistaken, I remember that strange bomb from Zhuhai... but I will check. https://t.co/tXJmoeiGnX
> View attachment 637213
> View attachment 637214


Only thing that seems fake are the numbering and JF-17 Dual Seat written near the nose.


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## Armchair

fatman17 said:


> Allegedly this JF-17B is carrying two 250kg Fuel Air Explosive bombs but some poster question it as being a faked image.
> 
> However if I'm not mistaken, I remember that strange bomb from Zhuhai... but I will check. https://t.co/tXJmoeiGnX
> View attachment 637213
> View attachment 637214



anti-cold-start. Designed to give Covid19 to the coldstarteristanis.


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## Scorpiooo

Right now our thandar B are based on block 2, do PAF have plan to induct thandars based on block 3 in future?


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## Armchair

Thunder B is structurally similar to block 3. So we were informed by Messiach.


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## fatman17

This is airforce section right


Tamiyah said:


> Could you post this in JF-17B section..?
> 
> 
> Only thing that seems fake are the numbering and JF-17 Dual Seat written near the nose.

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## Tamiyah

fatman17 said:


> This is airforce section right


Of course Sir.

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## Akh1112

fatman17 said:


> Allegedly this JF-17B is carrying two 250kg Fuel Air Explosive bombs but some poster question it as being a faked image.
> 
> However if I'm not mistaken, I remember that strange bomb from Zhuhai... but I will check. https://t.co/tXJmoeiGnX
> View attachment 637213
> View attachment 637214




CS/BBF1 250kg FAB






Myanmar air force dropped it on Kokangs in 2015.


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## fatman17

Saw someone claiming that the kill mark of irani UAV on thunder was photoshopped. So to prove him wrong here are more pictures of thunder(TN 12-138) with the kill mark. https://t.co/hdwbRyGasO

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## ghazi52

PAF Sakaser , Punjab.

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## fatman17

#PakistanAirForce #PAF receives yet another #Saab2000 #Erieye Airborne Early Warning and Control (AEW&C) aircraft

Photo link: https://t.co/b3B592kS5D 

@FalconsSpotters https://t.co/Fo7PKjdUES

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## fatman17

Photos posted yesterday confirmed as JF-17B carrying two CS/BBF1 250 kg Fuel Air Explosive (FAE) or thermobaric bombs which envelope their target in fuel cloud & then ignite cloud in high temperature explosion using fuel & oxygen mix

#Pakistan #PakistanAirForce #PAF #JF17 #JF17B https://t.co/lLcQiyaWT7

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## Bilal.

fatman17 said:


> Photos posted yesterday confirmed as JF-17B carrying two CS/BBF1 250 kg Fuel Air Explosive (FAE) or thermobaric bombs which envelope their target in fuel cloud & then ignite cloud in high temperature explosion using fuel & oxygen mix
> 
> #Pakistan #PakistanAirForce #PAF #JF17 #JF17B https://t.co/lLcQiyaWT7
> View attachment 637555
> View attachment 637556
> View attachment 637557
> View attachment 637558



I remember Pakistan had it’s on FAE bomb tested back in the early 2000s. It was similar size weapon shown in the pictures back then.

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## fatman17

*PAF’s Eagle-eyed view*
Published in Show Daily 2018 - Day 3

By
Asian Military Review
-
November 29, 2018



The PAF’s air defences systems monitor every movement in its skies, and is showing its capabilities in the Pakistan Hall. (Alan Warnes)




 
 

_*Protecting Pakistan’s airspace, is the main role of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF). Under Project Vision, which commenced operations 19 years ago, the PAF has done a phenomenal job doing just that. *_


Pulling together information from a number of multi-service sensors means the PAF has a single recognised air picture (RAP) that provides its air defenders with an eagle-eyed view. As a result it has 24/7 coverage of all its airspace, which can extend hundreds of miles out into the sea and across its borders.

One source told the IDEAS Show Daily, “we have US, European and Chinese short range, medium range and long range radars, that are both air based and ground based. They are coming from vintage and modern systems.” He went on to say, “with all this information fed and merged into our Air Space Management Centre (ASMC) we get a Recognised Air and Maritime Picture (RAMP).”





Nigeria’s Air Force Commander, Air Marshal Sadique Abubaker is given a briefing on the Air Space Management Center at the PAF’s stand on the first day of IDEAS 2018.
The Army and Navy surveillance systems are also plugged into the ASMC, along with the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) sensor, radar and flight plans, ensuring the air surveillance coverage is robust. One example of its airborne radar input combines aerial pictures of Sweden’s Saab Erieye, French Dassault 20 and Chinese CETC ZDK-03s which are downlinked to the ASMC. It is difficult to know of such an air defence system anywhere else in the world that draws upon such a wide variety of foreign sensors. Clearly they have come up with a complex system. “No, not really,” said another spokesman, “we use our very own indigenous multi-radar tracker, integrated into all of air defence systems. We don’t rely on the tracker of those particular systems.”

At IDEAS, the same source added, “We now have a system that has been perfected over a couple of decades, so it is battle-hardened and time proven. The air threats are very unique too – they come from the long standing threat in the east and the effects of terrorism in the west, all happening along very long borders.”

The PAF has four air defence centres, covering the complete aerial space of Pakistan.

“We stitch together all the sensor’s pictures together to get the complete picture. How far it goes out to sea depends upon where the ship-borne radar is located.”

When it comes to an unidentified flying aircraft, a fighter will be launched from one of the PAF’s Air Defence Alerts (ADAs) situated around Pakistan. They are then directed onto the target by a Ground Control Interceptor (GCI). In the eastern borders there are a lot of unmanned aerial vehicles crossing the border and both sides are looking deep into each other’s territories, to ensure they have an early airborne warning. Then there is the airspace over Afghanistan which is always uncertain because of the ongoing war on terror.

Defending Pakistan’s airspace is obviously a major motivation for everyone in the military to ensure the country is well defended.

*Watching The Noisy Neighbours*
This is an article published in our November 2016 Issue.

By
Alan Warnes
-
August 29, 2017



Undoubtedly Pakistan’s ZDK-03 is one of the most unusual AEW aircraft. The Pakistan Air Force has developed the platform with China Electronics Technology Corporation. (PAF)




 

 
*It is always handy to know what your neighbour is up to, particularly if they are not friendly. So it is no surprise that over the past decade there has been a proliferation of Airborne Early Warning (AEW) platforms in the Asia Pacific. *


Airborne Early Warning aircraft are one of the most affordable ways of monitoring your neighbour. Flying over international waters or in your own airspace, operators in the rear of the aircraft can point the aircraft’s radarin the appropriate direction, then sit back and watch. In the Asia-Pacific there are two countries that other actors most want to keep an eye on; the People’s Republic of China (PRC) and the Democratic People’s Republic of North Korea (DRPK). The latter continue to fire ballistic missiles, which could one day be loaded with nuclear warheads and this causes real headaches for Japan and the Republic of Korea (ROK), which are in easy range.

The PRC has more strategic aspirations spreading its maritime and territorial claims into the South China Sea, where there are plenty of oil and gas resources. Beijing makes no excuses for claiming the Spratley and Paracel Islands in the South China Sea where they have set up military outposts, to the annoyance of other countries such as Brunei-Darussalam, Indonesia, Malaysia, Philippines and Vietnam, which claim parts of these archipelagos as their sovereign territory. Meanwhile, India and Pakistan have never got on, while the PRC sees the former’s aspirations for a blue water navy as a threat to its own maritime supremacy.





The Republic of Singapore Air Force’s four G-550s equipped with the EL/W-2085 radar have boosted Singapore’s AEW capabilities considerably. The aircraft were declared fully operational in April 2012. (Alan Warnes)
Such strategic considerations make it unsurprising that so many countries in the Asia-Pacific have acquired AEW aircraft over the past decade or so. Input picked up by the radars equipping these aircraft can help form a Recognised Air Picture (RAP) of a particular segment of airspace, which mission commanders in the rear of the aircraft can monitor. The RAP can be data-linked to ground stations for commanders and eventually political leaders to make snap decisions in the face of confrontation or conflict. In addition, AEW aircraft have a useful role to play in managing air operations, directing aircraft to and from their ground and air targets.

*DPRK*
When a DPRK missile fired what Pyongyang claimed was a submarine-launched ballistic missile in late August, the weapon, the identity of which was not revealed, traveled about 540 nautical miles/nm (1000 kilometres/km) and was one of their longest launches to date. Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe called it an unforgivable act of violence and a grave threat to Japan’s security. Russian Air Force (RUAF) fighters intruding Japanese airspace are also an issue. It was against this backdrop of dual threats from the DPRK and RUAF that Japan became the first nation in the region to acquire an AEW platform, with the delivery of four Boeing E-767s in 1998 and 1999. They are operated by the Airborne Early Warning Group of the Japan Air Self-Defence Force (JASDF) at Hamamatsu airbase in southern Japan.

The brain of the aircraft’s systems is the Northrop Grumman APY-2 S-band (2.3-2.5/2.7-3.7 gigahertz/GHz) air surveillance radar, but to overcome obsolescence they have been continuously upgraded throughout their 16-year operational history. On 28 October 2014 the US Department of Defence announced that Boeing had been awarded a $25.6 million contract to upgrade the aircraft. The work includes enhancements to the aircraft’s mission computing, electronic support measures, Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) interrogator/transponder, Automatic Identification System (for the detection of maritime transponders used by shipping) and data link upgrades. The JASDF also operates 13 Northrop Grumman E-2C Hawkeye AEW aircraft which are flown by the Airborne Early Warning and Surveillance Group, based at Misawa and Naha airbases in northern Japan and the Japanese island of Okinawa respectively. In June 2015, the US State Department approved the supply of four E-2D Hawkeyes under a $1.7 billion multi-year deal. The first aircraft was ordered in November 2015 (for $151 million) and another in July 2016 ($163 million) which will be operational by March 2018. There are no details on when the further two aircraft will be ordered and delivered. In terms of JASDF doctrine, the E-2Cs provide aerial coverage of Japan’s 16090nm (29800km) coastline, while the E-767s are used as strategic assets.

Across the Sea of Japan, the ROK also suffers with issues from its northern DPRK neighbour. The ROKAF (Republic of Korea Air Force) is one of the region’s newest entrants to the AEW club, with four Boeing 737-700IGW Peace Eye AEW aircraft ordered on 7 November 2006 in a $1.6 billion contract but technical issues delayed the first official hand over until 1 August 2011 and the last in late October, 2012. All four aircraft are flown by the ROKAF’s Airborne Early Warning and Control squadron at Gimhae Air Base in the southern ROK. The Northrop Grumman Multirole Electronically Scanned Array (MESA) L-band (1.215-1.4GHz) radar is the centre-piece of the aircraft’s tactical systems. It’s coverage is reportedly sufficient to monitor the airspace above most of the DPRK, this means that it is unlikely anything can fly in the DPRK without the ROK knowing about it.

*South of China*
As you head further south, most countries focus their attention on the potential Chinese threat. Watching its military forces deploy to the Spratley and Paracel Islands archipelago (_see above_) is a real concern to many of the PRC’s neighbours in the South China Sea. Underneath this vast expanse of water around these two archipelagos in the South China Sea there is believed to be some 213 billion barrels of oil, or the equivalent of 80 percent of Saudi Arabia’s reserves, according to _Forbes_ magazine. Malaysia’s military has repeatedly asked for funding for up to four AEW aircraft, but the government has so far rejected its requests. Indonesia too has a desperate requirement, but for now nothing, it relies on three obsolete Boeing 737 Surveillers maritime patrol aircraft for monitoring the seas of the Malacca Strait. These aircraft are equipped with an ageing Motorola AN/APS-135(V) X-band (8.5-10.68GHz) Side Looking Airborne Modular Multi Mission Radar, but this radar has no datalink capability to hand off track and RAP information to other users. There is unlikely to be any funding for a new AEW system until 2020. The Royal Thai Air Force flies two Saab 340 Erieye AEW aircraft, operated by Wing 7 at Surat Thani, not far from Thailand’s border with Malaysia and these aircraft play a significant part in Thailand’s Integrated Air Defence System (IADS).





The Royal Thailand Air Force operates two Saab 340 Erieyes which form an important component of Thailand’s IADS. (Saab)
With the Malacca Straits continuing to be a hotbed of piracy and while tensions with Malaysia and Indonesia ebb and flow on a regular basis Singapore relies on intelligence to prepare itself for any eventuality. The Republic of Singapore Air Force (RSAF) announced the $1 billion purchase of four Gulfstream G-550 turbofan transports configured with Israel Aerospace Industries’ Elta Systems division EL/W-2085 Conformal Airborne Early Warning (CAEW) L-band/S-band radar. Deliveries took place between 2009 and 2010 and the aircraft were declared fully operational on 13 April, 2012 at Tengah airbase where they are operated by the Republic of Singapore Air Force’s 111 Squadron.

IAI Elta continue to market their EL/W-2085 equipped G-550 which is also operational with Israel. The _Aeronautica Militaire _(Italian Air Force) has of these aircraft on order in a $750 million order, and the first one should be delivered by the end of the year having almost completed modification at IAI’s Ben Gurion airport facility just outside Tel Aviv. Avishay Izhakian, IAI Elta’s deputy general manager for marketing and business development told _AMR_ that this aircraft “is a fourth generation CAEW; the main difference is the advanced radar technology which makes it more powerful; you get better or same performance with lesser resources. Weight is a big factor in the AEW world and the aircraft fulfils several missions, not just tracking airborne targets but (targets) on the ground and at sea. We have developed the aircraft for the threats of the future not just today”

Meanwhile, Taiwan’s Republic of China Air Force (ROCAF) operates six E-2K Hawkeyes, which are configured to the E-2C Hawkeye 2000 standard which outfits the aircraft with a new mission computer, and an additional satellite communications aerial. Of the ROCAF’s six E-2Ks, two are brand new aircraft and four E-2Ts originally delivered in September 1995 were upgraded to the E-2K standard in a deal worth $250 million. These aircraft play a crucial air surveillance role working in tandem with a network of ground-based air surveillance radars, which form the ROCAF’s IADS. The operators onboard provide a wide area surveillance of the Taiwan Straits, East and South China Seas.

*South Asia*
Both Pakistan and India have acquired AEW aircraft in recent years; mainly to keep an eye on each other, and in India’s case, Pakistan’s ally and New Delhi’s occasional rival the PRC. These new aircraft provide low altitude coverage for both sides, looking into mountain valleys and across the horizon over the sea. As one senior Pakistan Air Force officer told the author: “Ground based air defence (GBAD) radars can’t cover the sea, and not always the land. Pakistan’s contrasting terrain; sea, desert, glaciers and high peaks meant that monitoring these areas was ‘patchy’ until the (AEW) arrived in the late 2000s.” The Saab 2000 Erieye system, acquired in 2010 are flown by 3 Squadron and the Chinese-built ZDK-03 Karakorum Eagle operated by 4 Squadron. First deliveries of the latter took place in 2011. The latter is a Shaanxi Y-8G turboprop freighter developed by the China Electronics Technology Group (CETC) with a revolving radar on top: “There are differing areas of interest, which led to the different solutions” the PAF officer continued.





Undoubtedly Pakistan’s ZDK-03 is one of the most unusual AEW aircraft. The Pakistan Air Force has developed the platform with China Electronics Technology Corporation. (PAF)
As part of India’s growing AEW capabilities, it was announced on 4 July 2008 that the government had ordered three Embraer EMB-145I in a $210 million deal. All three have been delivered to India’s Centre for Airborne Systems (CABS), part of the country’s Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) in Bangalore south-west India. The DRDO has developed an AESA (Active Electronically Scanned Array) radar operating in S-Band which can track targets in the air and in the sea. However, in 2014 India announced it was looking for a longer-endurance and higher-altitude platform compared to the EMB-145, on which to integrate this indigenous radar system. An initial two Airbus A330 turbofan transports, the precise variant of which has not been announced, were selected expected to cost between $813 million and $840 million, depending on sources, with an option for four more. The Indian Air Force has operated three Ilyushin/Beriev A-50EhIs for AEW since 2009, equipped with IAI Elta Systems’ EL/W-2090 L-band radar which are located at Agra airbase in northern India, and are operated by 50 Squadron.

*Australia*
Like the ROK (_see above_) the Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) opted to acquire the 737-700IGW to fulfill its AEW needs. All four E-7A Wedgetails, as they are designated by the RAAF reached full operational clearance in May 2015, and are flown by 42 Sqn at Williamtown airbase in New South Wales. They are playing a big part in Operation OKRA, Australia’s contribution to the US-led Operation INHERENT RESOLVE against the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS) insurgent organization which has occupied significant portions of the north-west and east of those countries.





An RAAF E-7A taxies off the runway. The force has six E-7As which have been very busy participating in Operation OKRA, Australia’s contribution to ongoing anti-ISIS efforts. (Alan Warnes)
*New Systems*
One of the latest systems on the block is Saab’s GlobalEye AEW aircraft for which its manufacturer sees a big market in the Asia-Pacific region. Launched at the Singapore airshow in February, this followed a two aircraft deal worth $1.27 billion deal announced in November 2015 from the United Arab Emirates. The GlobalEye combines the new Saab Erieye-ER S-band AESA radar and Selex/Leonardo Seaspray-7500 X-band (8.5-10.68GHz) maritime surveillance radar onboard Bombardier’s Global-6000 business jet. At the airshow, Erik Winberg, Saab’s director of business, said the GlobalEye has “a swing-role capability that can work in the air, land and maritime domain. We can do any sort of surveillance in those three domains.”





Saab is now marketing its new GlobalEye AEW aircraft in South-east Asia, where it sees a market for the Bombardier 6000 integrated with an AESA and maritime surveillance radar. (Saab)
Ultimately, AEW aircraft provide the military with the speedy intelligence needed to react to an adversary. The operational requirements for the RAP are constantly growing, because of aircraft and missiles boasting low radar cross sections. When the DPRK is firing missiles, do not think that the DPRK or Japan does not see it. That is why many countries have purchased some of the most technologically driven, if very expensive, air platforms yet developed; to defend themselves not just against threats in the air, but on the ground or at sea too.

_by Alan Warnes_

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## alikazmi007

".....Undoubtedly Pakistan’s ZDK-03 is one of the most unusual AEW aircraft. The Pakistan Air Force has developed the platform with China Electronics Technology Corporation. (PAF)......."

Curious to see the reason for that comment.

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## fatman17

Veteran AVM(R) Farooq Umar flying his first solo F-16 sortie from Kamra in 1989. AVM(R) Farooq is famous F-104 Pilot who gave multiple supersonic passes above Amritsar as a sign of deterrence and commitment from PAF in early September 1965. https://t.co/lg0XYs2BPk

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## fatman17

F-16s entered PAF in January 1983, on 23rd March 1983 Air Chief Marshal Anwar Shamim lead the fly past in F-16A. the most unique example of dedication, commander of the force flying newly introduced type, solo flight means he must be OCU qualified. That’s PAF for you [emoji178][emoji1191] https://t.co/2SS1cT4S69

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## Nomad40

fatman17 said:


> F-16s entered PAF in January 1983, on 23rd March 1983 Air Chief Marshal Anwar Shamim lead the fly past in F-16A. the most unique example of dedication, commander of the force flying newly introduced type, solo flight means he must be OCU qualified. That’s PAF for you [emoji178][emoji1191] https://t.co/2SS1cT4S69


Thats a B model.


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## Raider 21

fatman17 said:


> Veteran AVM(R) Farooq Umar flying his first solo F-16 sortie from Kamra in 1989. AVM(R) Farooq is famous F-104 Pilot who gave multiple supersonic passes above Amritsar as a sign of deterrence and commitment from PAF in early September 1965. https://t.co/lg0XYs2BPk
> View attachment 637856


He did his check out while as DG PAC Kamra. It was with No. 14 squadron. AVM Bahar Ul Haq did his check around that time as well.



fatman17 said:


> F-16s entered PAF in January 1983, on 23rd March 1983 Air Chief Marshal Anwar Shamim lead the fly past in F-16A. the most unique example of dedication, commander of the force flying newly introduced type, solo flight means he must be OCU qualified. That’s PAF for you [emoji178][emoji1191] https://t.co/2SS1cT4S69


He flew in a B model

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## fatman17

ACM Mujahid Anwar Khan at a Qatar Emiri Air Force Base ... guess the birds in background [emoji16] .... https://t.co/PscmOtJTRT

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## Adam_Khan

Knuckles said:


> He did his check out while as DG PAC Kamra. It was with No. 14 squadron. AVM Bahar Ul Haq did his check around that time as well.
> 
> 
> He flew in a B model




Just wondering what's the purpose of an AVM to check out on a new aircraft, not that he would ever be able to fly it operationally. Same goes to a couple of our Air chiefs who checked out on the F.16 only at a very senior level. 
To me it's more false bravado than anything else.


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## airomerix

Adam_Khan said:


> Just wondering what's the purpose of an AVM to check out on a new aircraft, not that he would ever be able to fly it operationally. Same goes to a couple of our Air chiefs who checked out on the F.16 only at a very senior level.
> To me it's more false bravado than anything else.



It is walking the talk and it also inspires confidence in the teams. Let's not get cynical about this.

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## Adam_Khan

airomerix said:


> It is walking the talk and it also inspires confidence in the teams. Let's not be cynical about this.



Agree it's walking the talk but not of any real use to the airforce in general and I'm not sure hownwill it inspire confidence when the person is already in the twilight of his career.


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## airomerix



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## Raider 21

Adam_Khan said:


> Just wondering what's the purpose of an AVM to check out on a new aircraft, not that he would ever be able to fly it operationally. Same goes to a couple of our Air chiefs who checked out on the F.16 only at a very senior level.
> To me it's more false bravado than anything else.


At that time, having as many Viper drivers would have been very essential whether AVMs or juniors. Even Mushaf Ali Mir did his check out and in fact flew more actively compared to a lot of the juniors.

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## Adam_Khan

Knuckles said:


> At that time, having as many Viper drivers would have been very essential whether AVMs or juniors. Even Mushaf Ali Mir did his check out and in fact flew more actively compared to a lot of the juniors.



Mir was base commander Sarghoda,he must have checked out earlier than the others.


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## Raider 21

Adam_Khan said:


> Mir was base commander Sarghoda,he must have checked out earlier than the others.


He did and as OC Flying Kamra

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## fatman17

*Nigerian Air Force to operate JF-17 fighters in 2020 *
May 2020 news defense aviation aerospace air force industry
Posted On Friday, 22 May 2020 15:19

The Nigerian Air Force will take delivery of its JF-17 Thunder fighter jets in November 2020, according to the Chief of Air Staff, Air Marshal Sadique Abubakar.https://news.google.com/publications/CAAqBwgKML_xlAsw9MKqAw?oc=3&ceid=US:en






*Pakistani JF-17 (Picture source: Wikipedia)*

Air Marshal Sadique Abubakar said that over the last four and a half years, the Nigerian Government facilitated an unprecedented increase in the number of aircraft available for air operations, bringing the aircraft serviceability rate from 35% in July 2015 up to 82% as at February 2020. The Air Force is in the process of acquiring the JF-17 Thunder fighter and the A-29 Super Tucano light attack aircraft. The JF-17 is due to arrive in Nigeria in November 2020, while the Super Tucanos are expected to be inducted into service by 2022.

The country has three JF-17s on order but more may be acquired from Pakistan to replace or supplement its F-7Ni fleet – a third of its 15 F-7Ni/FT-7Ni aircraft have been lost in crashes. Nigeria also bought Super Mushshak trainers from Pakistan. The NAF earlier this month took three new aircraft into service: two armed AW109 helicopters from Italy’s Leonardo and one Mi-171 from Russia. Another Mi-171 is expected, along with two more AW109s (to date, four AW109s have been delivered as the NAF continues to expand its fleet).

The PAC JF-17 Thunder), or CAC FC-1 Xiaolong, is a lightweight, single-engine, multi-role combat aircraft developed jointly by the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) and the Chengdu Aircraft Corporation (CAC) of China. It was designed to replace the A-5C, F-7P/PG, Mirage III, and Mirage V combat aircraft in the Pakistan Air Force. The JF-17 can be used for multiple roles, including interception, ground attack, anti-ship, and aerial reconnaissance. Its designation "JF-17" by Pakistan is short for "Joint Fighter-17", while the designation and name "FC-1 Xiaolong" by China means "Fighter China-1 Fierce Dragon".

The JF-17 can deploy diverse ordnance, including air-to-air and air-to-surface missiles, and a 23 mm GSh-23-2 twin-barrel automatic cannon. Powered by a Guizhou WS-13 or Klimov RD-93 afterburning turbofan, it has a top speed of Mach 1.8. The JF-17 is to become the backbone of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF), complementing the General Dynamics F-16 Fighting Falcon at half the cost.[5] The PAF inducted its first JF-17 squadron in February 2010. In 2015 Pakistan produced 16 JF-17s. In 2016, Pakistan was believed to have the capacity to produce 25 JF-17 per year. 58% of the airframe is Pakistani and 42% Chinese/Russian-origin.





*Official picture of one of the Nigerian JF-17 fighters (Picture source: Twitter account of Defense News Nigeria)*

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## khanasifm

fatman17 said:


> *Nigerian Air Force to operate JF-17 fighters in 2020 *
> May 2020 news defense aviation aerospace air force industry
> Posted On Friday, 22 May 2020 15:19
> 
> The Nigerian Air Force will take delivery of its JF-17 Thunder fighter jets in November 2020, according to the Chief of Air Staff, Air Marshal Sadique Abubakar.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Pakistani JF-17 (Picture source: Wikipedia)*
> 
> Air Marshal Sadique Abubakar said that over the last four and a half years, the Nigerian Government facilitated an unprecedented increase in the number of aircraft available for air operations, bringing the aircraft serviceability rate from 35% in July 2015 up to 82% as at February 2020. The Air Force is in the process of acquiring the JF-17 Thunder fighter and the A-29 Super Tucano light attack aircraft. The JF-17 is due to arrive in Nigeria in November 2020, while the Super Tucanos are expected to be inducted into service by 2022.
> 
> The country has three JF-17s on order but more may be acquired from Pakistan to replace or supplement its F-7Ni fleet – a third of its 15 F-7Ni/FT-7Ni aircraft have been lost in crashes. Nigeria also bought Super Mushshak trainers from Pakistan. The NAF earlier this month took three new aircraft into service: two armed AW109 helicopters from Italy’s Leonardo and one Mi-171 from Russia. Another Mi-171 is expected, along with two more AW109s (to date, four AW109s have been delivered as the NAF continues to expand its fleet).
> 
> The PAC JF-17 Thunder), or CAC FC-1 Xiaolong, is a lightweight, single-engine, multi-role combat aircraft developed jointly by the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) and the Chengdu Aircraft Corporation (CAC) of China. It was designed to replace the A-5C, F-7P/PG, Mirage III, and Mirage V combat aircraft in the Pakistan Air Force. The JF-17 can be used for multiple roles, including interception, ground attack, anti-ship, and aerial reconnaissance. Its designation "JF-17" by Pakistan is short for "Joint Fighter-17", while the designation and name "FC-1 Xiaolong" by China means "Fighter China-1 Fierce Dragon".
> 
> The JF-17 can deploy diverse ordnance, including air-to-air and air-to-surface missiles, and a 23 mm GSh-23-2 twin-barrel automatic cannon. Powered by a Guizhou WS-13 or Klimov RD-93 afterburning turbofan, it has a top speed of Mach 1.8. The JF-17 is to become the backbone of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF), complementing the General Dynamics F-16 Fighting Falcon at half the cost.[5] The PAF inducted its first JF-17 squadron in February 2010. In 2015 Pakistan produced 16 JF-17s. In 2016, Pakistan was believed to have the capacity to produce 25 JF-17 per year. 58% of the airframe is Pakistani and 42% Chinese/Russian-origin.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Official picture of one of the Nigerian JF-17 fighters (Picture source: Twitter account of Defense News Nigeria)*




Do not know the source of this interview but quoted to naf airchief


“The country has three JF-17s on order but more may be acquired from Pakistan to replace or supplement its F-7Ni fleet – a third of its 15 F-7Ni/FT-7Ni aircraft have been lost in crashes.”

expect total order to go from 3 to 12 /24 in the medium run ( my guess) replacing f-7 and perhaps alphajets in ground attack role with B models as well

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## fatman17

They will buy 16 depending on their budget allocations


khanasifm said:


> Do not know the source of this interview but quoted to naf airchief
> 
> 
> “The country has three JF-17s on order but more may be acquired from Pakistan to replace or supplement its F-7Ni fleet – a third of its 15 F-7Ni/FT-7Ni aircraft have been lost in crashes.”
> 
> expect total order to go from 3 to 12 /24 in the medium run ( my guess) replacing f-7 and perhaps alphajets in ground attack role with B models as well

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## Pakistani Fighter

fatman17 said:


> They will buy 16 depending on their budget allocations


They should seek Block 2+ atleast

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## fatman17

Likely


Pakistani Fighter said:


> They should seek Block 2+ atleast

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## fatman17

Ukraine's UkrOboronProm has got a US$30 million contract to overhaul & upgrade the Il-78 aerial refueling tanker of the Pakistan Air Force at the Mykolaiv Plant. If PAF is satisfied two more Il-78 overhaul contract to be awarded. @schaheid @Jana_Shah
https://t.co/JtEKJC5bsu https://t.co/8GojJX7soT

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## fatman17

None but the brave

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## fatman17

Pakistan and Turkey

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## Viper27

fatman17 said:


> Ukraine's UkrOboronProm has got a US$30 million contract to overhaul & upgrade the Il-78 aerial refueling tanker of the Pakistan Air Force at the Mykolaiv Plant. If PAF is satisfied two more Il-78 overhaul contract to be awarded. @schaheid @Jana_Shah
> https://t.co/JtEKJC5bsu https://t.co/8GojJX7soT
> View attachment 638740



Strange..weren’t the IL-78s upgraded in Russia?


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## TOPGUN

fatman17 said:


> Ukraine's UkrOboronProm has got a US$30 million contract to overhaul & upgrade the Il-78 aerial refueling tanker of the Pakistan Air Force at the Mykolaiv Plant. If PAF is satisfied two more Il-78 overhaul contract to be awarded. @schaheid @Jana_Shah
> https://t.co/JtEKJC5bsu https://t.co/8GojJX7soT
> View attachment 638740



fatman17, do you we know what will be upgraded ?


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## fatman17

TOPGUN said:


> fatman17, do you we know what will be upgraded ?


I'm guessing here. glass cockpit and engine upgrade. these IL78s make a lot of noise and therefore are not allowed to land at many international airports as they break noise abatement levels.



Viper27 said:


> Strange..weren’t the IL-78s upgraded in Russia?


no, these were bought from Ukraine 2nd hand and were initially given a refurbishment (dent, paint etc)

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## fatman17

*Dumb Bombs with Graduate Degrees*
By
Joetey Attariwala
-
April 27, 2017




Seen adjacent to a Pakistani JF-17 Thunder, is the Chinese made LS precision guided bomb (Right), also known as the Thunder Stone Gliding Guided Bomb. The LS is an upgrade kit to modernize dumb bombs with precision laser guidance. (Joetey Attariwala)
 

*From the early days of aerial warfare, air forces around the world have sought ways to increase the accuracy and lethality of air-delivered ordnance, but it was not until advances in microchip technology that air forces were able to use precision guidance kits which could be attached to dumb bombs. *



Today there are two primary types of guided bombs; Laser Guided Bombs (LGB), and GPS (Global Positioning System) guided bombs; each employ their own unique type of precision guidance kit technology. LGBs are the most common and widespread type of guided bombs. Essentially dumb bombs attached with a semi-active stabilized laser seeker unit on the nose, coupled to a Computer Control Group (CCG) containing guidance and control electronics, a battery, and a pneumatic control augmentation system. Each bomb has front control canards and a rear airflow group for stability. These weapons use their electronics to track targets that are designated by laser (typically in the infrared spectrum) and adjust their glide path to precisely strike the target. Since the weapon is tracking a light signature and not the object itself, the target must be illuminated from a separate source, either by a laser targeting pod on the attacking aircraft, by ground forces, or by a support aircraft ‘lasing’ the target.

Leading the LGB pack is Lockheed Martin and Raytheon’s Paveway series, comprising the Paveway-II, Paveway-III, and the Paveway-IV; the newest variant. Joe Serra, precision guided systems director at Lockheed Martin’s missiles and fire control division, explained the workshare split for Paveway precision guidance kits: “The US government had a lot of interest in bringing in competition for LGBs … So, in 2001 we were qualified for Paveway-II laser guided bomb kits by the US Air Force and the US Navy … One of the big drivers that competition has brought is affordability. I think the Paveway system is recognised as being a very affordable way of delivering conventional ordnance.”





Seen here in green is a Raytheon-manufactured dual mode Enhanced Paveway-II laser guided bomb. Lockheed Martin and Raytheon both produce the Paveway-II precision guidance kits. (Joetey Attariwala)
Lockheed Martin is a qualified provider of all three Paveway-II variants to equip the Mk.80 freefall dumb bomb family; namely the GBU-10 Mk.84, GBU-12 Mk.82 and GBU-16 Mk.83. In its most common configuration, the Paveway-II is fixed to the Mk.82 500 pound/lb (227.2 kilogram/kg) dumb bomb resulting in the GBU-12, providing a cheap lightweight PGM suitable for use against vehicles and other small targets. The Paveway-III family has a considerably longer glide range and greater accuracy than the Paveway-II series, but it is substantially more expensive and therefore tends to be limited in use against high-value targets. Paveway-III kits have been used on the larger Mk.84 and BLU-109 2000lb (909kg) weapons, resulting in the GBU-24 and GBU-27 combinations. Paveway-III guidance kits were also used on the GBU-28/B penetration bomb, which used the BLU-109B hardened penetrator bomb during the US-led Operation DESERT STORM in 1991 to evict Iraqi forces from Kuwait. Raytheon is the sole provider of Paveway-III variants.





Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF) weapons technicians load a GBU-12 Paveway-II while on the ramp at Trapani, Italy. The RCAF supported United Nations efforts to protect civilians during the Libyan civil war. (Joetey Attariwala)
*Adding Capability*
In mid-2016, Lockheed Martin tested the new Paveway-II Dual Mode Plus LGB which incorporates new optics and a GPS/INS (Inertial Navigation System) navigation _ensemble_. Effective against fixed and moving targets, the Paveway-II Dual Mode Plus LGB improves mission effectiveness by providing precision strike capabilities in all-weather conditions (given that laser guidance can be degraded by precipitation or smoke particles) at extended standoff ranges. This Paveway-II LGB configuration easily integrates with aircraft employing legacy Paveway-II LGBs. On 19 September 2016, Lockheed Martin received an $87.6 million contract from the USAF for follow-on production of Paveway II Dual Mode Plus LGB kits.





A French Air Force Mirage 2000 loaded with live dual mode GBU-12 Enhanced Paveway II bombs takes on fuel from while flying over the Mediterranean during Operation UNIFIED PROTECTOR. (Joetey Attariwala)
The Paveway-IV, meanwhile, is a dual mode GPS/INS and laser guided bomb manufactured by Raytheon’s UK subsidiary. The weapon is a guidance kit based on the existing Enhanced Paveway-II Enhanced Computer Control Group (ECCG) with increased penetration performance. The new ECCG contains a Height of Burst (HOB) sensor enabling air burst options, and a Selective Availability Anti Spoofing Module (SAASM) compliant GPS receiver. It can be launched by Inertial Measurement Unit only, given sufficiently good transfer alignment, or by using GPS guidance. Terminal laser guidance is available in either navigation mode. The Paveway-IV has entered service with the Royal Air Force and the Royal Saudi Air Force.

*GPS*
Lessons learned during Operation DESERT STORM and during US-led interventions in the Balkans in the 1990S showed the value of precision munitions, yet also highlighted the difficulties in employing them: specifically when visibility of a target was degraded due to weather or smoke. The solution was to develop GPS-guided munitions. Such weapons are dependent both on the precision of the measurement system used for location determination, and the precision in setting the coordinates of the target; the latter critically depends on intelligence information.

Satellite-guided weapons like Boeing’s Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM) family were designed to negate the issues faced by laser guided munitions. JDAM-equipped dumb bombs are guided by an integrated INS coupled to a GPS receiver. The JDAM family can be employed in all weather conditions, without any need for additional air or ground support. Standard configuration JDAMs have a published range of up to 15 nautical miles/nm (27.7 kilometres/km). Satellite guided munitions work very well, however operational experience proved that guidance to a set of GPS coordinates does not allow flexibility for mid-course correction to prosecute moving, manoeuvring or maritime targets. In 2007 the US Navy and USAF identified an urgent need during ongoing operations in Afghanistan and Iraq for a Direct Attack Moving Target Capability (DAMTC) to enable the precision engagement of high speed moving targets. Supported by Boeing, the services rapidly fielded an add-on laser kit for the JDAM family, thereby creating the dual mode Laser-JDAM (LJDAM) to address this gap. The laser seeker is a cooperative development between Boeing and Elbit Systems. The Precision Laser Guidance Set (PLGS) consists of a DSU-38B laser seeker and a wire harness fixed under the bomb body which connects the DSU-38B with the tail kit. The LJDAM is now in widespread use with the US Navy and Marine Corps. According to Captain Jaime Engdahl, US Navy precision strike weapons programme manager: “The preferred weapon for (the US Navy) is currently the Laser JDAM because of the flexibility to employ either a precision GPS guided weapon through the weather against fixed targets or laser-guided (weapons) against high speed moving targets.”

Boeing has also developed a new wing kit which when connected to the JDAM guidance kit increases the bomb’s range from approximately 12.9nm (24km) to more than 38nm (72km); this variant is dubbed the JDAM-ER (Extended Range): “The JDAM-ER kit takes advantage of the conventional JDAM aircraft interface and Boeing GBU-39 Small Diameter Bomb glide technology,” said Greg Coffey, director for Boeing JDAM programmes: “With the JDAM-ER customers have increased standoff range needed to neutralise current and future threats.” The Royal Australian Air Force is currently only operator of the JDAM-ER.





Boeing’s Joint Direct Attack Munition Extended Range (JDAM-ER) is now in service with the Royal Australian Air Force. The JDAM-ER demonstrated significant range increase while maintaining the accuracy expected by the GPS-guided munition. (Joetey Attariwala)
Current US Navy capabilities in development include a dual mode capability (_see above_) for 2000lb hard target penetrator weapons. Further enhancements to US direct attack weapons are not currently funded but in the future may include a precision navigation capability in a GPS-denied environment, additional weapon sensors, extended range variants of current direct attack weapons, or the addition of network capabilities to enable flexible targeting of weapons in flight: “At this time the tactical value, or need, for additional capabilities in the current threat environment has not been cited in recent engagements and no requirement exists to further improve our direct attack weapon inventory,” Capt. Engdhal continues, although he added: “The Navy is closely following the development and fielding of extended range variants of JDAM by our international allies although we currently do not have a requirement for JDAM-ER.”

*SPICE*
Israel’s Rafael Advanced Defence Systems started working on precision-guided, air-to-ground munitions in the early 1960’s, which produced the POPEYE, a precision human-in-the-loop guided missile. Rafael’s first precision guidance kit for dumb bombs was developed in the 1990’s and are marketed as the SPICE (Smart, Precise Impact, Cost-Effective) family. The SPICE family comprises stand-off, autonomous, air-to-ground weapons capable of hitting and destroying targets with pinpoint accuracy and at high attack volumes. SPICE kits use state-of-the-art navigation, guidance and homing techniques to achieve the accurate and effective destruction of high-value enemy targets with a CEP (Circular Error Probable) of three metres (9.8ft). SPICE’s Automatic Target Acquisition capability employs unique scene-matching technology that is able to discern scenery changes, countermeasures, navigation errors and target location errors. The technology works by comparing a real-time image received from the dual Charge-Coupled Device (CCD) and infrared seeker to a reference image stored in the weapon’s computer. SPICE has day, night and adverse weather capabilities, based on its advanced seeker and scene-matching algorithms. SPICE weapons are combat-proven and in service with the Israeli Air Force and several international customers.

The first kit to be developed was the SPICE-2000, which was designed for the 2000lb. general purpose or penetration warheads such as the Mk. 84, RAP-2000 and BLU-109. The SPICE-2000 has a stand-off range of 32.3nm (60km). The next kit to be developed was the SPICE-1000, which as the name denotes, is mated to 1000lb (454kg). general purpose or penetration warheads such as the Mk.83 and RAP-1000. The SPICE-1000 has a stand-off range of 53.9nm (100km). The Israeli Air Force will reach full operational capability with the SPICE-1000 by the end of 2016.

During a mission plan, whether in the air or on the ground, target data consisting of target coordinates, impact angle and azimuth, imagery and topographical data are used to create a mission for each target which the pilot allocates to each weapon before release. Mission parameters are defined according to target type and operational requirements, such as a steep dive angle for deep penetration. The SPICE munition is released outside a threatened area, and performs midcourse navigation autonomously using its INS/GPS to home in on the exact target location with the predefined impact angle and azimuth. While approaching the target, SPICE’s unique scene-matching algorithm compares the optronics image received in real time via the weapon seeker with mission reference intelligence data stored in the weapon’s computer memory. In the homing phase, the system locates the target using scene-matching technology, and uses the tracker to hit it. As a result of this capability, SPICE overcomes target location error and GPS jamming, and dramatically reduces collateral damage. A spokesperson for Rafael told _Armada_: “Trends which I see include how precision for fixed targets is now evolving into a requirement for moving targets. I believe there will be new homing techniques that allow precision attack for GPS environments, and I see increased stand-off range in order to overcome the risk to the aircrew due to the increased capabilities of air defence systems.”

*Worldwide Evolutions*
Nations such as India, the People’s Republic of China, South Africa and Turkey are manufacturing their own precision guidance kits for dumb bombs. For example, in October 2010, India developed its first Sudarshan LGB with the help of the Aeronautical Development Establishment, a lab of India’s Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO). The project aimed to develop an advanced laser guidance kit to improve the accuracy of 1000lb dumb bombs. The guidance kit consists of a computer control group, canards attached to the front of the warhead for steering, and a wing assembly attached to the rear end to provide lift. The kit can guide a bomb within ten metres (32.8ft) CEP, and if dropped from normal altitude, it has a range of around 4.8nm (nine kilometres). A programme to extend the precision guidance kit capability to further increase its range and accuracy is ongoing.





Seen adjacent to a Pakistani JF-17 Thunder, is the Chinese made LS precision guided bomb (Right), also known as the Thunder Stone Gliding Guided Bomb. The LS is an upgrade kit to modernize dumb bombs with precision laser guidance. (Joetey Attariwala)
Similarly, Turkey’s TÜBİTAK Defence Industries Research and Development Institute has developed the HGK guidance kit which converts 2000lb Mk.84 bombs into a precision guided munition. The kit consists of a GPS/INS guidance kit with extendable wings. It enables long range precision strike in all weather conditions with a CEP of six metres (19.6ft). Moreover, South Africa’s Denel Dynamics has partnered in a joint venture with Tawazun Holdings of the United Arab Emirates to develop and manufacture various precision weapons. A version of Denel’s Umbani kit, known as the Al-Tariq is now being manufactured. The Al Tariq provides the user with all-weather, day or night operational capabilities, utilising GPS/INS guidance or infrared, with a complete Automatic Target Recognition (ATR) capability, or a semi-active laser seeker. The system can also be fitted with a radio frequency proximity fuse for area targeting using a pre-fragmented warhead. Depending on configuration, it has autonomous target acquisition with a stand-off range of over 53.9nm (100 km). A wing kit, or motors, can be added to increase stand-off range and low-level (straight and level) launch capability. The weapons’ reported accuracy is as low as three metres CEP. Finally, Safran’s AASM adds precision guidance and propulsion kits to standard bombs, entering operational service in 2008, and in use with the French Air Force in ongoing operations against the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria insurgent organisation. The AASM has a stand-off range exceeding 32.3nm (60km) and allows operators to conduct all-weather, day/night precision ground strikes against fixed and moving targets.

*Conclusions*
According to the US Navy, the majority of navy weapons being employed in combat are 500lb (227kg); 1000lb and 2000 lb JDAM variants, namely the GBU-38/32/31, against fixed targets. Capt. Engdahl shared the following with _Armada_: “The dual mode Laser-JDAM has been operationally fielded since 2010 and has provided welcome operational flexibility to engage either moving, or fixed, targets with a single weapon variant. The US Navy, US Air Force, and our international partners will continue to procure modular JDAM tail kits and LJDAM sensor kits for the foreseeable future.”

Precision-guided dumb bombs, both GPS- and Laser-guided, combined with highly effective intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance, and improved targeting capabilities have been the key enablers for dramatically increasing warfighting effectiveness and minimising civilian casualties over the past two decades. Munitions like the JDAM family and LGBs are key enablers to provide precision strike capabilities. The future will see continual development of these systems employing multiple modes, new sensors, an increased focus on range, and the ability to operate in GPS-denied environments.

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## Scorpiooo

*This is how the Indians fool their nation. The IAF has painted the wreckage of their own MiG-21 in PAF colors and displayed it as a war trophy outside a military base*. However in their desperation apart from painting the Pakistani flag the wrong way, the losers failed to remove the serial number and as can be seen in the third picture, all IAF MiG-21s have a prefix of letter 'C' as part of their serial.

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## Incog_nito

Scorpiooo said:


> *This is how the Indians fool their nation. The IAF has painted the wreckage of their own MiG-21 in PAF colors and displayed it as a war trophy outside a military base*. However in their desperation apart from painting the Pakistani flag the wrong way, the losers failed to remove the serial number and as can be seen in the third picture, all IAF MiG-21s have a prefix of letter 'C' as part of their serial.
> View attachment 638942
> View attachment 638943
> View attachment 638944



Lolz... As Always...

Is PAF interested in acquiring some used MiG-29s & Su-27s with upgrades from some current operators?

This can give/offer PAF a hands-on experience as well as can assist PAF in building up a relationship with the Russian Aviation Industry directly.

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## Scorpiooo

Incog_nito said:


> Lolz... As Always...
> 
> Is PAF interested in acquiring some used MiG-29s & Su-27s with upgrades from some current operators?
> 
> This can give/offer PAF a hands-on experience as well as can assist PAF in building up a relationship with the Russian Aviation Industry directly.


Can be usefull idea

But PAF never interested in Russians birds , dont know the reason, thay are good and cheap.

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## Viper27

fatman17 said:


> I'm guessing here. glass cockpit and engine upgrade. these IL78s make a lot of noise and therefore are not allowed to land at many international airports as they break noise abatement levels.
> 
> 
> no, these were bought from Ukraine 2nd hand and were initially given a refurbishment (dent, paint etc)



Yes that I know..just didn't know the extent of the upgrades in Russia. Also wondering..could they not have been patched up by the Ukranians..why did they go to Russia first?

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## fatman17

My guess is as good as yours


Viper27 said:


> Yes that I know..just didn't know the extent of the upgrades in Russia. Also wondering..could they not have been patched up by the Ukranians..why did they go to Russia first?


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## Signalian

Armchair said:


> Couldn't sleep as an idea was working in my head so I got up and built an Excel model of conscription.
> 
> Basically the model has the following assumptions:
> 1. 10,000 conscripts per month.
> 2. Each conscript gets 1.5 month training and serves an additional 6 months
> 3. At the end of conscription, PA picks the best and offers them positions in the regular army
> 4. Of the rest, a second tour is offered on a voluntary basis with better remuneration. The model assumes 10% of conscripts choose such an option. A third tour is 10% of the second tour
> 5. Another option is to volunteer for the Weekend Warrior program - part time reserve, with training one weekend every month and a 2 week tour every year. The model assumes 20% of the conscripts choose this option. Every six months, attrition is 10%.
> 
> The net result is that, within the first year, Pakistan has 78,000 soldiers. By the second year, Pak has 91,500 soldiers. And by Year 3, there are 95,000 soldiers.
> 
> The Israelis use an 80-20 split. For every 8 conscripts, they have 2 professional soldiers / technicians / engineers to back them up. If we add about 18000 such soldiers for our force, we end up with approximately 113,000 soldiers of professionals / nonprofessionals mixed.
> 
> Next we can look into how to equip them and where to base them.
> 
> @PanzerKiel thought you may find it interesting.




I don't want to divert your thread into discussing aircrafts so im quoting you here - if we just say that instead of increasing Ground formations, follow a different model, an approach similar to USA and Israel, which leads to doubling the PAF combat Squadrons from 16 to 32. How would that affect future Operations of Pakistan Military and how would India react to it ? what resources and in how much time can the airforce be doubled ? How can it give edge to Pakistan in war ? Bear in mind that AF gives cover to ground and naval forces so its always in demand for providing cover and keeping friendly skies clear. Its difficult to match Indian Army divisions on 1 to 1 basis and remote chances of PN operating an aircraft carrier or destroyer.

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## Armchair

Signalian said:


> I don't want to divert your thread into discussing aircrafts so im quoting you here - if we just say that instead of increasing Ground formations, follow a different model, an approach similar to USA and Israel, which leads to doubling the PAF combat Squadrons from 16 to 32. How would that affect future Operations of Pakistan Military and how would India react to it ? what resources and in how much time can the airforce be doubled ? How can it give edge to Pakistan in war ? Bear in mind that AF gives cover to ground and naval forces so its always in demand for providing cover and keeping friendly skies clear. Its difficult to match Indian Army divisions on 1 to 1 basis and remote chances of PN operating an aircraft carrier or destroyer.



That is an interesting thought. Perhaps it doesn't have to be one or the other, but a balanced response with increases in all services. Conscripting say 1 in 10 matriculating graduates would be a low cost way to increase infantry divisions. If not 1:1 at least it can be 1:.8 It also solves the relative lack of reserves problem.

About increasing air force units - I think this will be expensive but a definite force multiplier. PAF has already increased JF-17 production rate to perhaps 25 a year. They may end up with a 500 fighter air force.

Maintaining these aircraft and manning them are quite expensive. The JF-17, mainly due to the engine costs more CPFH than the F-16 (or so I've gleaned). How can this be lowered?
What are some other ways that PAF capabilities can be enhanced?

Here are some ideas:
1. Buy all the Mirage 3/5/50 there is in the world. Continue this as long as possible to increase numbers.
2. Get a LIFT to lower the JF-17 costs - keep a portion of the pilot flight hours from a simulator and a LIFT, and minimize use of the actual jet. This would lower costs significantly.
3. Let's think a step further: Why not build a "JF-17 Lite" that would essentially be a LIFT? A low cost, low CPFH JF-17.

Thinking along this third line, such a LIFT may not need to pull 8.5 Gs. Maybe 4 Gs is enough. The most expensive element in the JF-17 is the RD-93 engine (and also the cause of higher CPFH). Build a simplified local RD-93 / WS-XX). Instead of using expensive alloys and materials, make a simplified version of the RD-93 / WS-13 with steel and aluminum (7x series aircraft aluminum).

I think if Elon Musk was in charge that is what he would do. His philosophy is, if something is too complex they inevitably create problems and is a poor engineering choice. This is why Space X is now building engines with Steel.

Do an Elon with the RD-93 or WS-xx. Get a team to use the Elon model of engineering R&D with constant building and testing, creating rapid iterations until you perfect it.

This engine would not need to be the most expensive or best engine. Just a good enough engine for a LIFT. Get the JF-17 Lite to the 0.8 - 0.9 mach range.

With low cost and simplified solutions (given only 4 Gs are needed), this JF-17 would be lighter and significantly cheaper (with the low cost local engine).

They would probably sell like hot cakes to any country looking for a low cost multirole aircraft.

Better yet, such a JF-17 would be able to bomb IA formations just as easily (you don't need 8 Gs and supersonic for ground pounding missions). They would be able to support "real" JF-17s in air combat by having missile racks that could be qued by data link.

They would be able to keep the "real" JF-17 pilots current by acting as the near perfect low cost LIFT. Since they would share parts with the "real" JF-17s, in war time when long MTBF is not needed, their parts would often be able to be used in a hurry.

As PAF's finances improve, parts from the JF-17 Lite could be retired in favor of "real" parts - increasing their capability. For instance, first thing changed would be perhaps the steel / aluminum fan blades for single crystal blades...

So, this perhaps could be a way that PAF could be made to significantly increasing the capability of a-2-a and a-2-g at a relatively low cost, keeping economic conditions in view.

This JF-17 Lite would sell like hot cakes in Africa and South America. Modern combat aircraft are just too expensive to buy for a large number of countries. We saw with the Nigeria order that each Block 2 JF-17s, with support, parts, etc costing 60 million per plane.

What is the JF-17 Lite cost 5 to 7 million? With the low cost of steel / aluminum / plastic parts, what is the price point we could offer the world?

How then, would a successful export aircraft help PAF? As money comes back in, and as increased production lowers unit costs, the sky would perhaps be the limit to however many JF-17s Pakistan needs, in whatever configuration.

Post Script: By the way, Israel uses conscription. Bringing this up since you noted Israel. They have about 600,000 soldiers 80% of them conscripts. The also have a large air force. So, for them its not one or the other, but a balance of both. Why conscription isn't being used in Pakistan is a logic that is not understandable to me. The only explanation is that PA does not wish to leave its colonial legacy.

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## fatman17

Lockheed Martin received a $485 million contract for Department of Defense and Foreign Military Sales (FMS) Sniper, Infrared Search and Track (IRST); and Low Altitude Navigation and Targeting Infrared for Night (LANTIRN) navigation pod (fixed wing) hardware production. This contract involves FMS to (this list is not all inclusive): Bahrain, Belgium, Bulgaria, Canada, Egypt, Greece, Indonesia, Iraq, Israel, Jordan, Republic of Korea, Kuwait, Morocco, Netherlands, Norway, Oman, Pakistan, Poland, Qatar, Romania, Saudi Arabia, Slovakia, Taiwan, Thailand and Turkey. FMS funds in the amount of $34 million are being obligated at the time of award for the country of Morocco. Contract through Air Force Life Cycle Management Center.

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## Scorpiooo

Armchair said:


> That is an interesting thought. Perhaps it doesn't have to be one or the other, but a balanced response with increases in all services. Conscripting say 1 in 10 matriculating graduates would be a low cost way to increase infantry divisions. If not 1:1 at least it can be 1:.8 It also solves the relative lack of reserves problem.
> 
> About increasing air force units - I think this will be expensive but a definite force multiplier. PAF has already increased JF-17 production rate to perhaps 25 a year. They may end up with a 500 fighter air force.
> 
> Maintaining these aircraft and manning them are quite expensive. The JF-17, mainly due to the engine costs more CPFH than the F-16 (or so I've gleaned). How can this be lowered?
> What are some other ways that PAF capabilities can be enhanced?
> 
> Here are some ideas:
> 1. Buy all the Mirage 3/5/50 there is in the world. Continue this as long as possible to increase numbers.
> 2. Get a LIFT to lower the JF-17 costs - keep a portion of the pilot flight hours from a simulator and a LIFT, and minimize use of the actual jet. This would lower costs significantly.
> 3. Let's think a step further: Why not build a "JF-17 Lite" that would essentially be a LIFT? A low cost, low CPFH JF-17.
> 
> Thinking along this third line, such a LIFT may not need to pull 8.5 Gs. Maybe 4 Gs is enough. The most expensive element in the JF-17 is the RD-93 engine (and also the cause of higher CPFH). Build a simplified local RD-93 / WS-XX). Instead of using expensive alloys and materials, make a simplified version of the RD-93 / WS-13 with steel and aluminum (7x series aircraft aluminum).
> 
> I think if Elon Musk was in charge that is what he would do. His philosophy is, if something is too complex they inevitably create problems and is a poor engineering choice. This is why Space X is now building engines with Steel.
> 
> Do an Elon with the RD-93 or WS-xx. Get a team to use the Elon model of engineering R&D with constant building and testing, creating rapid iterations until you perfect it.
> 
> This engine would not need to be the most expensive or best engine. Just a good enough engine for a LIFT. Get the JF-17 Lite to the 0.8 - 0.9 mach range.
> 
> With low cost and simplified solutions (given only 4 Gs are needed), this JF-17 would be lighter and significantly cheaper (with the low cost local engine).
> 
> They would probably sell like hot cakes to any country looking for a low cost multirole aircraft.
> 
> Better yet, such a JF-17 would be able to bomb IA formations just as easily (you don't need 8 Gs and supersonic for ground pounding missions). They would be able to support "real" JF-17s in air combat by having missile racks that could be qued by data link.
> 
> They would be able to keep the "real" JF-17 pilots current by acting as the near perfect low cost LIFT. Since they would share parts with the "real" JF-17s, in war time when long MTBF is not needed, their parts would often be able to be used in a hurry.
> 
> As PAF's finances improve, parts from the JF-17 Lite could be retired in favor of "real" parts - increasing their capability. For instance, first thing changed would be perhaps the steel / aluminum fan blades for single crystal blades...
> 
> So, this perhaps could be a way that PAF could be made to significantly increasing the capability of a-2-a and a-2-g at a relatively low cost, keeping economic conditions in view.
> 
> This JF-17 Lite would sell like hot cakes in Africa and South America. Modern combat aircraft are just too expensive to buy for a large number of countries. We saw with the Nigeria order that each Block 2 JF-17s, with support, parts, etc costing 60 million per plane.
> 
> What is the JF-17 Lite cost 5 to 7 million? With the low cost of steel / aluminum / plastic parts, what is the price point we could offer the world?
> 
> How then, would a successful export aircraft help PAF? As money comes back in, and as increased production lowers unit costs, the sky would perhaps be the limit to however many JF-17s Pakistan needs, in whatever configuration.


Thandar lite is not bad idea at all, but few point seam tomuch wished specially low cost local engines, aircraft engine are not easy job look how many countries actually doing it, so best option is to get cheap cost engine
Second point you said it can cost 5 to 7 million, which not realistic anything use as LIFT need have basic avionics and other equipment for training. Si what ever thay it will cost higher then ur guess


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Armchair said:


> That is an interesting thought. Perhaps it doesn't have to be one or the other, but a balanced response with increases in all services. Conscripting say 1 in 10 matriculating graduates would be a low cost way to increase infantry divisions. If not 1:1 at least it can be 1:.8 It also solves the relative lack of reserves problem.
> 
> About increasing air force units - I think this will be expensive but a definite force multiplier. PAF has already increased JF-17 production rate to perhaps 25 a year. They may end up with a 500 fighter air force.
> 
> Maintaining these aircraft and manning them are quite expensive. The JF-17, mainly due to the engine costs more CPFH than the F-16 (or so I've gleaned). How can this be lowered?
> What are some other ways that PAF capabilities can be enhanced?
> 
> Here are some ideas:
> 1. Buy all the Mirage 3/5/50 there is in the world. Continue this as long as possible to increase numbers.
> 2. Get a LIFT to lower the JF-17 costs - keep a portion of the pilot flight hours from a simulator and a LIFT, and minimize use of the actual jet. This would lower costs significantly.
> 3. Let's think a step further: Why not build a "JF-17 Lite" that would essentially be a LIFT? A low cost, low CPFH JF-17.
> 
> Thinking along this third line, such a LIFT may not need to pull 8.5 Gs. Maybe 4 Gs is enough. The most expensive element in the JF-17 is the RD-93 engine (and also the cause of higher CPFH). Build a simplified local RD-93 / WS-XX). Instead of using expensive alloys and materials, make a simplified version of the RD-93 / WS-13 with steel and aluminum (7x series aircraft aluminum).
> 
> I think if Elon Musk was in charge that is what he would do. His philosophy is, if something is too complex they inevitably create problems and is a poor engineering choice. This is why Space X is now building engines with Steel.
> 
> Do an Elon with the RD-93 or WS-xx. Get a team to use the Elon model of engineering R&D with constant building and testing, creating rapid iterations until you perfect it.
> 
> This engine would not need to be the most expensive or best engine. Just a good enough engine for a LIFT. Get the JF-17 Lite to the 0.8 - 0.9 mach range.
> 
> With low cost and simplified solutions (given only 4 Gs are needed), this JF-17 would be lighter and significantly cheaper (with the low cost local engine).
> 
> They would probably sell like hot cakes to any country looking for a low cost multirole aircraft.
> 
> Better yet, such a JF-17 would be able to bomb IA formations just as easily (you don't need 8 Gs and supersonic for ground pounding missions). They would be able to support "real" JF-17s in air combat by having missile racks that could be qued by data link.
> 
> They would be able to keep the "real" JF-17 pilots current by acting as the near perfect low cost LIFT. Since they would share parts with the "real" JF-17s, in war time when long MTBF is not needed, their parts would often be able to be used in a hurry.
> 
> As PAF's finances improve, parts from the JF-17 Lite could be retired in favor of "real" parts - increasing their capability. For instance, first thing changed would be perhaps the steel / aluminum fan blades for single crystal blades...
> 
> So, this perhaps could be a way that PAF could be made to significantly increasing the capability of a-2-a and a-2-g at a relatively low cost, keeping economic conditions in view.
> 
> This JF-17 Lite would sell like hot cakes in Africa and South America. Modern combat aircraft are just too expensive to buy for a large number of countries. We saw with the Nigeria order that each Block 2 JF-17s, with support, parts, etc costing 60 million per plane.
> 
> What is the JF-17 Lite cost 5 to 7 million? With the low cost of steel / aluminum / plastic parts, what is the price point we could offer the world?
> 
> How then, would a successful export aircraft help PAF? As money comes back in, and as increased production lowers unit costs, the sky would perhaps be the limit to however many JF-17s Pakistan needs, in whatever configuration.
> 
> Post Script: By the way, Israel uses conscription. Bringing this up since you noted Israel. They have about 600,000 soldiers 80% of them conscripts. The also have a large air force. So, for them its not one or the other, but a balance of both. Why conscription isn't being used in Pakistan is a logic that is not understandable to me. The only explanation is that PA does not wish to leave its colonial legacy.


To be honest, it doesn't need to be as complicated as any of that...

There's actually a Polish company that was willing to develop a new single-engine LIFT using the AI-222-28F. The design work was already complete, it just needed a primary investor/end-user to anchor the program.

This is basically your 'JF-17 Lite' in a nut-shell. It gets you the LIFT capabilities you need without causing a redundancy with the JF-17, while also adding its own value (e.g., as a light attack aircraft).

The engine was ITAR-free and widely in use, no reason why they couldn't make the other inputs ITAR-free if asked. If the PAF says it'll buy LIFT from a local contractor, and commit to a sizable enough order, the private sector will invest.

Sure, they wouldn't be able to make all or even most of the plane in Pakistan, but some firm could've bought the design, managed the final assembly, and manufactured like 33%+ of the content locally.

It's appalling we never thought of this idea when the Polish gov't literally invited some of our generals to tour the Polish industry in 2017 (see here).






https://old.defence-ua.com/index.ph...ping-grot-2-airplane-with-a-motor-sich-engine

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## Armchair

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> To be honest, it doesn't need to be as complicated as any of that...
> 
> There's actually a Polish company that was willing to develop a new single-engine LIFT using the AI-222-28F. The design work was already complete, it just needed a primary investor/end-user to anchor the program.
> 
> This is basically your 'JF-17 Lite' in a nut-shell. It gets you the LIFT capabilities you need without causing a redundancy with the JF-17, while also adding its own value (e.g., as a light attack aircraft).
> 
> The engine was ITAR-free and widely in use, no reason why they couldn't make the other inputs ITAR-free if asked. If the PAF says it'll buy LIFT from a local contractor, and commit to a sizable enough order, the private sector will invest.
> 
> It's appalling we never thought of this idea when the Polish gov't literally invited all armed forces chiefs to tour the Polish industry in 2017 (https://grupapgz.pl/blog/przedstawiciele-pakistanskiego-przemyslu-obronnego-z-wizyta-w-pgz/)
> 
> View attachment 639460
> 
> https://old.defence-ua.com/index.ph...ping-grot-2-airplane-with-a-motor-sich-engine



That is a good idea. However, I see a few points:

1. To develop a true LIFT is about 70% the effort of a fighter program. If its subsonic, about 50% the effort.

2. The engines have to be truly low maintenance and sip fuel. Otherwise there is no real purpose.

3. Modern AESA radars have very high definition - meaning they can recognize and differentiate aircraft a lot better than in the past. This means that this LIFT would just be a lift and at best a light attack aircraft.

4. There is very limited combat utility of a LIFT in an air defence role. Specially in a high stakes India-Pakistan face-off.

In comparison, the JF-17 Lite would:

1. Be nearly indistinguishable from JF-17s, meaning India would not know exactly how many "real JF-17s" they are facing in combat.

2. Over time, can be upgraded to even better combat capability (as funds become available): upgrade to some composite engine parts - get more combat capable engine. Add a radar / add a better radar. Add EW. Take out some of the lower quality airframe parts and improve G rating. There is a certain in-built upgradability here. Eventually, the margin of difference between the Lite and the real thing will be smaller.

3. You have a product indigenously developed that can be exported to Africa / South America as your export. Which can earn money. Buying a LIFT - most likely a Chinese one will never allow you to do that. And if you can sell the JF-17 Lite as a LIFT, you get a foot in the door and develop relationships as a manufacturer. Which makes the real JF-17 an even more attractive proposition as a package.

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## Signalian

Armchair said:


> That is an interesting thought. Perhaps it doesn't have to be one or the other, but a balanced response with increases in all services. Conscripting say 1 in 10 matriculating graduates would be a low cost way to increase infantry divisions. If not 1:1 at least it can be 1:.8 It also solves the relative lack of reserves problem.
> 
> About increasing air force units - I think this will be expensive but a definite force multiplier. PAF has already increased JF-17 production rate to perhaps 25 a year. They may end up with a 500 fighter air force.
> 
> Maintaining these aircraft and manning them are quite expensive. The JF-17, mainly due to the engine costs more CPFH than the F-16 (or so I've gleaned). How can this be lowered?
> What are some other ways that PAF capabilities can be enhanced?
> 
> Here are some ideas:
> 1. Buy all the Mirage 3/5/50 there is in the world. Continue this as long as possible to increase numbers.
> 2. Get a LIFT to lower the JF-17 costs - keep a portion of the pilot flight hours from a simulator and a LIFT, and minimize use of the actual jet. This would lower costs significantly.
> 3. Let's think a step further: Why not build a "JF-17 Lite" that would essentially be a LIFT? A low cost, low CPFH JF-17.
> 
> Thinking along this third line, such a LIFT may not need to pull 8.5 Gs. Maybe 4 Gs is enough. The most expensive element in the JF-17 is the RD-93 engine (and also the cause of higher CPFH). Build a simplified local RD-93 / WS-XX). Instead of using expensive alloys and materials, make a simplified version of the RD-93 / WS-13 with steel and aluminum (7x series aircraft aluminum).
> 
> I think if Elon Musk was in charge that is what he would do. His philosophy is, if something is too complex they inevitably create problems and is a poor engineering choice. This is why Space X is now building engines with Steel.
> 
> Do an Elon with the RD-93 or WS-xx. Get a team to use the Elon model of engineering R&D with constant building and testing, creating rapid iterations until you perfect it.
> 
> This engine would not need to be the most expensive or best engine. Just a good enough engine for a LIFT. Get the JF-17 Lite to the 0.8 - 0.9 mach range.
> 
> With low cost and simplified solutions (given only 4 Gs are needed), this JF-17 would be lighter and significantly cheaper (with the low cost local engine).
> 
> They would probably sell like hot cakes to any country looking for a low cost multirole aircraft.
> 
> Better yet, such a JF-17 would be able to bomb IA formations just as easily (you don't need 8 Gs and supersonic for ground pounding missions). They would be able to support "real" JF-17s in air combat by having missile racks that could be qued by data link.
> 
> They would be able to keep the "real" JF-17 pilots current by acting as the near perfect low cost LIFT. Since they would share parts with the "real" JF-17s, in war time when long MTBF is not needed, their parts would often be able to be used in a hurry.
> 
> As PAF's finances improve, parts from the JF-17 Lite could be retired in favor of "real" parts - increasing their capability. For instance, first thing changed would be perhaps the steel / aluminum fan blades for single crystal blades...
> 
> So, this perhaps could be a way that PAF could be made to significantly increasing the capability of a-2-a and a-2-g at a relatively low cost, keeping economic conditions in view.
> 
> This JF-17 Lite would sell like hot cakes in Africa and South America. Modern combat aircraft are just too expensive to buy for a large number of countries. We saw with the Nigeria order that each Block 2 JF-17s, with support, parts, etc costing 60 million per plane.
> 
> What is the JF-17 Lite cost 5 to 7 million? With the low cost of steel / aluminum / plastic parts, what is the price point we could offer the world?
> 
> How then, would a successful export aircraft help PAF? As money comes back in, and as increased production lowers unit costs, the sky would perhaps be the limit to however many JF-17s Pakistan needs, in whatever configuration.
> 
> Post Script: By the way, Israel uses conscription. Bringing this up since you noted Israel. They have about 600,000 soldiers 80% of them conscripts. The also have a large air force. So, for them its not one or the other, but a balance of both. Why conscription isn't being used in Pakistan is a logic that is not understandable to me. The only explanation is that PA does not wish to leave its colonial legacy.



You have started revolving around JF-17, its cost and fighter acquisition. I asked specific Q's to clear an over all picture with few basic points:
1. Army has raised new formations, upgraded older formations (Mech inf and Sp Arty Regts), PAF has also raised couple of Squadrons and PN has inducted new ships. So an overall expansion has taken in all three forces. In the past, Army was expanded the most which has changed now. However, all this expansion in three forces is excellent, but how does one get an edge over the enemy in conventional warfare?

2. Army cannot match its brigades and divisions with indian Army and Navy cannot also match ship to ship. However, if PAF starts to match its number of squadrons to IAF squadrons, would that raise alarms in IAF ? would that give an edge to PA and PN in conducting their Ops also since both are dependent on air cover ? 

3. India has always started a weapons race and knows that it can win that weapon race, in numbers especially. Pakistan can match in quality though and it has most of the times. Its the numbers where Pakistan lacks and will continue to do so.

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## Incog_nito

Scorpiooo said:


> Can be usefull idea
> 
> But PAF never interested in Russians birds , dont know the reason, thay are good and cheap.



Also, if we say only a very small number and PAF can keep them secret like other Air Forces have aircraft that they keep secret from the world.

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## fatman17

Identify the ordnance

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> To be honest, it doesn't need to be as complicated as any of that...
> 
> There's actually a Polish company that was willing to develop a new single-engine LIFT using the AI-222-28F. The design work was already complete, it just needed a primary investor/end-user to anchor the program.
> 
> This is basically your 'JF-17 Lite' in a nut-shell. It gets you the LIFT capabilities you need without causing a redundancy with the JF-17, while also adding its own value (e.g., as a light attack aircraft).
> 
> The engine was ITAR-free and widely in use, no reason why they couldn't make the other inputs ITAR-free if asked. If the PAF says it'll buy LIFT from a local contractor, and commit to a sizable enough order, the private sector will invest.
> 
> Sure, they wouldn't be able to make all or even most of the plane in Pakistan, but some firm could've bought the design, managed the final assembly, and manufactured like 33%+ of the content locally.
> 
> It's appalling we never thought of this idea when the Polish gov't literally invited some of our generals to tour the Polish industry in 2017 (see here).
> 
> View attachment 639460
> 
> https://old.defence-ua.com/index.ph...ping-grot-2-airplane-with-a-motor-sich-engine


Sir,
With due apology, LIFT will not give any significant advantage because it would only be used against lightly protected targets. Unfortunately what PAF's current requirements are is to procure a deep strike aircraft that could cover the expanded sea lines. PAF also needs to replace the F7PG with more multirole light fighter aircraft that can be flown at MACH 2. 

IF PAF would continue with the current concept of area deniability then: 
PAF should look into the Turkish Hurjet and engine technology so that in the future local production and self reliability can be secured for domestic and export.

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## princefaisal

Turkish Hurjet will be available in 2023.


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## PanzerKiel

fatman17 said:


> Identify the ordnance
> View attachment 639531



Left most is Lockheed Martin Paveway Dual Mode Plus-equipped Mk-82 general purpose bomb
Second from left is Mars



fatman17 said:


> Identify the ordnance
> View attachment 639531


...and the big green one is Cluster Bomb Unit, CBU.


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## Pakistani Fighter

PanzerKiel said:


> Cluster Bomb Unit, CBU.


Which one? Is it comparable to CBU 105?

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## PanzerKiel

fatman17 said:


> Identify the ordnance
> View attachment 639531



Green big one probable is Mk 20 Rockeye CBU



Pakistani Fighter said:


> Which one? Is it comparable to CBU 105?



*CBU-97 Sensor Fuzed Weapon* is a United States Air Force 1,000-pound (450 kg)-class freefall Cluster Bomb Unit. 

The CBU-97 used in conjunction with the Wind Corrected Munitions Dispenser guidance tail kit, is converted to a precision-guided weapon and designated *CBU-105*.

CBU 105 is of course much better, rather a smart munition, when compared to Mk 20.

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## Armchair

Signalian said:


> You have started revolving around JF-17, its cost and fighter acquisition. I asked specific Q's to clear an over all picture with few basic points:
> 1. Army has raised new formations, upgraded older formations (Mech inf and Sp Arty Regts), PAF has also raised couple of Squadrons and PN has inducted new ships. So an overall expansion has taken in all three forces. In the past, Army was expanded the most which has changed now. However, all this expansion in three forces is excellent, but how does one get an edge over the enemy in conventional warfare?
> 
> 2. Army cannot match its brigades and divisions with indian Army and Navy cannot also match ship to ship. However, if PAF starts to match its number of squadrons to IAF squadrons, would that raise alarms in IAF ? would that give an edge to PA and PN in conducting their Ops also since both are dependent on air cover ?
> 
> 3. India has always started a weapons race and knows that it can win that weapon race, in numbers especially. Pakistan can match in quality though and it has most of the times. Its the numbers where Pakistan lacks and will continue to do so.



I think the force needed to defend Pakistan is enough. There is both a strategic and conventional balance as is. However, if the objective is different - to liberate Kashmir or to fight an enemy that is bound to start a war - and win that war - then the equations change. 

Stalin is famous for saying - _quantity has a quality all it's own. _ Is Pakistan's qualitative edge and small size good enough to win a war to liberate Kashmir? That is the pertinent question for me. _Is it possible for Pakistan to win bag Kashmir? _Again another axiomatic question. 

Pakistan has gone beyond the point where it can be militarily defeated in a short conventional war. Or even in a long unconventional one. For me, the objective now should be to liberate Kashmir and to prepare for a Hindutva war where they attempt to occupy GB and Azad Kashmir. 

This means that from my POV, the objective isn't conventional balance but conventional imbalance in favour of Pakistan. Thus, the fundamental premise is why we aren't on the same page. To buttress my point, I can bring up that PM IK thinks (as according to his many speeches), that India has adopted a Nazi-like ideology whose logical conclusion is going to lead them to attack Pakistani Kashmir. 

From the other side, Kashmir is critical to Pakistan's ideological existence, and to liberate Kashmir is a fundamental order of Jinnah. So, to fulfill the political requirement, Pak Armed Forces job is to search for and implement strategies and plans that will help them achieve a victory in Kashmir. By ignoring this and holding on to minimal balance of forces vis-a-vis India, Pakistan Armed Forces is not truly serving the objectives set. 

To fulfill such a purpose, the armed forces has to realize that it has to up the game - and a part of upping that game is to see how the quantity variable can be changed. Pakistan isn't as rich as India that it can match them professional soldier to professional soldier. But can it close the gap in a cost-efficient manner? 

Now, it is on the onus of the armed forces to figure out what plan they have. That plan has to have the objective of having the possibility of retaking Kashmir. Not the objective of the past. Whether that includes conscription or not, whether that includes more combat aircraft or not, or what balance of quality and quantity that will require, or whatever. First and foremost those proposals have to come from the armed forces. 

The post you quoted is from a thread I started giving my amateur views on how this later objective of a coming showdown and an attempt can be made to retake Kashmir using a different kind of quantity, and a different combination of variables. It outlined my _amateur _attempt to show what kind of operational plans would need to be laid out - like the Bhuj salient or the flanking maneuver in Rajistan. Within my narrative, none of that is possible without a significantly larger military, and I simply used the point of least resistance to overcome that fundamental problem. 

Likewise, in this thread I've simply highlighted a similar idea for increasing the combat efficiency and effectiveness of the air force, _in line with the objectives I had outlined. _The loss in translation is because our fundamental premise of the ultimate objectives differ.

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## Shah_Deu

Signalian said:


> You have started revolving around JF-17, its cost and fighter acquisition. I asked specific Q's to clear an over all picture with few basic points:
> 1. Army has raised new formations, upgraded older formations (Mech inf and Sp Arty Regts), PAF has also raised couple of Squadrons and PN has inducted new ships. So an overall expansion has taken in all three forces. In the past, Army was expanded the most which has changed now. However, all this expansion in three forces is excellent, but how does one get an edge over the enemy in conventional warfare?
> 
> 2. Army cannot match its brigades and divisions with indian Army and Navy cannot also match ship to ship. However, if PAF starts to match its number of squadrons to IAF squadrons, would that raise alarms in IAF ? would that give an edge to PA and PN in conducting their Ops also since both are dependent on air cover ?
> 
> 3. India has always started a weapons race and knows that it can win that weapon race, in numbers especially. Pakistan can match in quality though and it has most of the times. Its the numbers where Pakistan lacks and will continue to do so.


I think you have raised an excellent point. In the current scenario, it is easiest to close the squadron numbers gap with that of IAF considering we are producing JF-17s inhouse. Matching the quantity of assets of PN and PA with the adversary is much more difficult if not impossible.

Additionally, the only service which can simultaneously support the other two services is PAF. Matching PA and PN numbers would only strengthen those particular services whereas strengthening the PAF would not only strengthen it alone but would also strengthen the PA and PN as a side-prdouct automatically.

Considering that the IAF is currently at its historically low numbers and considering all the vintage jets it has to replace, its squadron numbers are not going to go upwards any time soon. It is our wonderful chance to keep diminishing the quantity advantage they have enjoyed for years and slowly try to match it while retaining the quality edge at the same time.

JF-17 provides us a potent tool to realize this very opportunity. Thus, the initial idea of JF-17 as just a replacement for older jets needs to be bunked for good and its numbers must be increased beyond the intitally laid out figures. That would, thus, not only directly be a huge psychological setback for the IAF but would also indirectly be denying the size advantage the IN and IA enjoy in their respective categories.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

princefaisal said:


> Turkish Hurjet will be available in 2023.


It is under development hence PAF can invest and get a tailored product for itself.


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## Signalian

Shah_Deu said:


> I think you have raised an excellent point. In the current scenario, it is easiest to close the squadron numbers gap with that of IAF considering we are producing JF-17s inhouse. Matching the quantity of assets of PN and PA with the adversary is much more difficult if not impossible.
> 
> Additionally, the only service which can simultaneously support the other two services is PAF. Matching PA and PN numbers would only strengthen those particular services however strengthening the PAF would not only strengthen it alone but would also strengthen the PA and PN as a side-prdouct automatically.
> 
> Considering that the IAF is currently at its historically low numbers and considering all the vintage jets it has to replace, its squadron numbers are not going to go upwards any time soon. It is our wonderful chance to keep diminishing the quantity advantage they have enjoyed for years and slowly try to match it while retaining the quality edge at the same time.
> 
> JF-17 provides us a potent tool to realize this very opportunity. Thus, the initial idea of JF-17 as just a replacement needs to be bunked for good and its numbers must be increased beyond the intitally laid out figures. That would, thus, not only directly be a huge psychological setback for the IAF but would also indirectly be denying the size advantage the IN and IA enjoy in their respective categories.



IAF combat squadrons are around 28 with 3 more to be inducted this year and the authorised number is 42. If PAF also starts inducting squadrons at same speed, IAF will not feel any psychological edge by boosting numbers. Even if PAF keeps 12 aircrafts per squadron for new ones instead of usual 18, the squadron will still be operational.



Armchair said:


> Stalin is famous for saying - _quantity has a quality all it's own. _ Is Pakistan's qualitative edge and small size good enough to win a war to liberate Kashmir? That is the pertinent question for me. _Is it possible for Pakistan to win bag Kashmir? _Again another axiomatic question.


Ok, just to make u think a bit more on the Ops side.

Have u researched history of Air war over Kashmir from 1947 till 2020? 
What about the air warfare in mountains ? 
Which jets are suited for high altitudes and in snow ?
Which air bases can sustain a constant sortie rate from Pakistan and Indian side?


Why is strength of infantry formations lesser in number in mountains than regular battalions ?
How does mobility come into play for advancing army in mountains ?
Where does Army aviation come in ? and who will give cover to PAA ?

What role does snow play during combat in mountains ? Is choosing the right season necessary but it wont last forever, just a few months, so how to being victory in those few months ? Remember Barbarossa, but it wasnt mountains even.

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## Armchair

Signalian said:


> IAF combat squadrons are around 28 with 3 more to be inducted this year and the authorised number is 42. If PAF also starts inducting squadrons at same speed, IAF will not feel any psychological edge by boosting numbers. Even if PAF keeps 12 aircrafts per squadron for new ones instead of usual 18, the squadron will still be operational.
> 
> 
> Ok, just to make u think a bit more on the Ops side.
> 
> Have u researched history of Air war over Kashmir from 1947 till 2020?
> What about the air warfare in mountains ?
> Which jets are suited for high altitudes and in snow ?
> Which air bases can sustain a constant sortie rate from Pakistan and Indian side?
> 
> 
> Why is strength of infantry formations lesser in number in mountains than regular battalions ?
> How does mobility come into play for advancing army in mountains ?
> Where does Army aviation come in ? and who will give cover to PAA ?
> 
> What role does snow play during combat in mountains ? Is choosing the right season necessary but it wont last forever, just a few months, so how to being victory in those few months ? Remember Barbarossa, but it wasnt mountains even.



Thought provoking questions. I surely don't have air tight answers to quite a few of them. Even if I attempt amateur answers to some of them, I think these operational questions are left to a professional to answer. I do know quite intimately how a handful of soldiers in the mountains can bring a much larger force to a standstill - Indians were using 16:1 with heavy artillery - thousands of rounds per minute. If you look at the other thread, I've therefore shown how attacking from another sector by surprise could be used to get the results.

Obviously the Indians expect Pak to attack in Kashmir or between Sialkot to just South of Multan. Why not surprise them with something they don't expect? But don't want to drag this away from the interesting discussion you're looking for... just to note that the big picture requires greater flexibility of thinking.

F-16s are the best aircraft Pakistan has for high altitude mountain warfare. From the Indian side its the M-2K and MiG-29. Mountains allow aerial ambush opportunities at every contour. Rafale would be the deadliest aircraft of them all for this kind of high altitude turning ambushes.

Even a single one of your questions would be an interesting and long discussion and I don't want to disconnect but delay here because I was thinking about something else just now - the big picture. Perhaps if we start from there we can then start to drill down to the details.

Let's imagine a scenario of 2028 and what PAF could do to reach the 32 squadrons you've outlined.

What does it have from the old stock of 2019 at that point?
Perhaps:
F-16s - 75
JF-17s - 118
Mirage - 150
F-7PG - 50
*Total: 393*

To reach 32 squadrons, Pakistan needs: *576* combat aircraft.

This means there is a need for 183 aircraft more between 2020-2028. That is, about 20 aircraft inducted per year. Pakistan has right now a capacity of 25 aircraft per year (minus exports). Thus, what you are suggesting is a reasonably achievable goal.

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## Scorpiooo

Incog_nito said:


> Also, if we say only a very small number and PAF can keep them secret like other Air Forces have aircraft that they keep secret from the world.


I dont think in current world inductions of fighter aircraft can remain secret long



Armchair said:


> That is a good idea. However, I see a few points:
> 
> 1. To develop a true LIFT is about 70% the effort of a fighter program. If its subsonic, about 50% the effort.
> 
> 2. The engines have to be truly low maintenance and sip fuel. Otherwise there is no real purpose.
> 
> 3. Modern AESA radars have very high definition - meaning they can recognize and differentiate aircraft a lot better than in the past. This means that this LIFT would just be a lift and at best a light attack aircraft.
> 
> 4. There is very limited combat utility of a LIFT in an air defence role. Specially in a high stakes India-Pakistan face-off.
> 
> In comparison, the JF-17 Lite would:
> 
> 1. Be nearly indistinguishable from JF-17s, meaning India would not know exactly how many "real JF-17s" they are facing in combat.
> 
> 2. Over time, can be upgraded to even better combat capability (as funds become available): upgrade to some composite engine parts - get more combat capable engine. Add a radar / add a better radar. Add EW. Take out some of the lower quality airframe parts and improve G rating. There is a certain in-built upgradability here. Eventually, the margin of difference between the Lite and the real thing will be smaller.
> 
> 3. You have a product indigenously developed that can be exported to Africa / South America as your export. Which can earn money. Buying a LIFT - most likely a Chinese one will never allow you to do that. And if you can sell the JF-17 Lite as a LIFT, you get a foot in the door and develop relationships as a manufacturer. Which makes the real JF-17 an even more attractive proposition as a package.


*The idea of thander lite seems good*, it will give you cheap option to increase very lightweight Fighters and LIFT option too.
Ofcourse good export option if price can be controlled between 10 to 15 million

But question is how to reduce price , is there any cheap cost or low maintenance engine available from russia or china that can take weight of thandar airframe.
What other changes can reduce cost as we already know the basics verion block 1 used to cost 25 million so what other things can be removed from block one , that will not easy thing for PAC at all

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## polanski

Ukraine to upgrade Pakistan Air Force’s IL-78 Tanker Aircraft: https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2...de-pakistan-air-forces-il-78-tanker-aircraft/


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## Pakistani Fighter

Armchair said:


> Thought provoking questions. I surely don't have air tight answers to quite a few of them. Even if I attempt amateur answers to some of them, I think these operational questions are left to a professional to answer. I do know quite intimately how a handful of soldiers in the mountains can bring a much larger force to a standstill - Indians were using 16:1 with heavy artillery - thousands of rounds per minute. If you look at the other thread, I've therefore shown how attacking from another sector by surprise could be used to get the results.
> 
> Obviously the Indians expect Pak to attack in Kashmir or between Sialkot to just South of Multan. Why not surprise them with something they don't expect? But don't want to drag this away from the interesting discussion you're looking for... just to note that the big picture requires greater flexibility of thinking.
> 
> F-16s are the best aircraft Pakistan has for high altitude mountain warfare. From the Indian side its the M-2K and MiG-29. Mountains allow aerial ambush opportunities at every contour. Rafale would be the deadliest aircraft of them all for this kind of high altitude turning ambushes.
> 
> Even a single one of your questions would be an interesting and long discussion and I don't want to disconnect but delay here because I was thinking about something else just now - the big picture. Perhaps if we start from there we can then start to drill down to the details.
> 
> Let's imagine a scenario of 2028 and what PAF could do to reach the 32 squadrons you've outlined.
> 
> What does it have from the old stock of 2019 at that point?
> Perhaps:
> F-16s - 75
> JF-17s - 118
> Mirage - 150
> F-7PG - 50
> *Total: 393*
> 
> To reach 32 squadrons, Pakistan needs: *576* combat aircraft.
> 
> This means there is a need for 183 aircraft more between 2020-2028. That is, about 20 aircraft inducted per year. Pakistan has right now a capacity of 25 aircraft per year (minus exports). Thus, what you are suggesting is a reasonably achievable goal.


F7 PGs will retire soon


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## Mrc

J 31 is nearly ready. 

We shud get 2 squadrons

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## Armchair

Pakistani Fighter said:


> F7 PGs will retire soon



I hope not. They are pretty cheap and the maintenance is easy for PAF. Spare parts are cheap and plentiful. Good jet to keep around in small quantity for niche role as 

1. first aircraft for newly minted pilots
2. Giving flight hours to JF-17 / F-16 pilots so those platforms can be preserved
3. LIFT
4. Ground attack
5. WVR ambush around Lahore / Kashmir
6. Low cost policing duties like intercepting airliners that err.

In any case, I was trying to make the best possible case for reaching @Signalian 's numbers.

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## Reichmarshal

Pakistani Fighter said:


> F7 PGs will retire soon



No they are not !

They are relatively new and potent point defence jets with their double cranked deltas.
The first to go will be the last remaining F7.
Then the older non rose mirages.

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## fatman17

Will maintain at least 2 sqdns


Reichmarshal said:


> No they are not !
> 
> They are relatively new and potent point defence jets with their double cranked deltas.
> The first to go will be the last remaining F7.
> Then the older non rose mirages.

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## fatman17

IAF order of battle v Pakistan

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## fatman17

BHOLARI: Pakistan Air Force F-16s at PAF Base Bholari, Sindh 

| #Pakistan #Sindh #Bholari #PakistanAirForce #PAF #AirForces #F16 https://t.co/7RYxtKoBrh

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## fatman17

PAF Rocks [emoji1191] 25 Sqn, Sargodha, 1977-78. My dad, Air Cdre CQ Akhtar (Retd) as Squardon Commander #PakistanAirForce @XULQIMOON https://t.co/TYJkgDcc2p

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## nomi007



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## fatman17

Another Egyptian C-130 spotted in Pakistan [emoji16] ; Mirage Horus [emoji3] or May be EAF’s Pani Pack 20 F-16 Block 52s [emoji3590][emoji3544] .... ALLAH knows better ... https://t.co/Uiedpm5Mwg

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## Armchair

fatman17 said:


> Another Egyptian C-130 spotted in Pakistan [emoji16] ; Mirage Horus [emoji3] or May be EAF’s Pani Pack 20 F-16 Block 52s [emoji3590][emoji3544] .... ALLAH knows better ... https://t.co/Uiedpm5Mwg
> View attachment 640525




Fatman17, what is a Pani Pack 20 F-16 block 52? That's a very specific thing to say... we know Egyptian F-16s are watered down versions but... if you were speculating you would have said perhaps F-16s and left it at that... but you made it very very specific...

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## mingle

Armchair said:


> Fatman17, what is a Pani Pack 20 F-16 block 52? That's a very specific thing to say... we know Egyptian F-16s are watered down versions but... if you were speculating you would have said perhaps F-16s and left it at that... but you made it very very specific...


Means used F16s from EAF along Horus mirages make sence for EAF to get rid few so can adjust recent procurements
Pani pack means 20 blk 52 are in eygpt but are non operational and not link with any Sqdn or Unit means just 20 blk 52 stored there like brand new can you believe and EAF on shopping bonanza

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## Armchair

mingle said:


> Means used F16s from EAF along Horus mirages make sence for EAF to get rid few so can adjust recent procurements
> Pani pack means 20 blk 52 are in eygpt but are non operational and not link with any Sqdn or Unit means just 20 blk 52 stored there like brand new can you believe and EAF on shopping bonanza



Thank you that makes more sense.

Between, can somebody talk to the Libyans, they urgently need fighter aircraft, pilot training, etc. And their credit is good. They are only approachable through Turkey, won't talk to anybody else. Offer them a squadron of fighters with quick training... would be a great way to make some money.

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## Viper27

Would it be sensible to even consider Egyptian F-16s unless we have clearance from the Americans to remove softw restrictions re: AIM-120?

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## mingle

Viper27 said:


> Would it be sensible to even consider Egyptian F-16s unless we have clearance from the Americans to remove softw restrictions re: AIM-120?


Obviously will come as EDA but they are great if we get them software can be update its not an issue.

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## Viper27

mingle said:


> Obviously will come as EDA but they are great if we get them software can be update its not an issue.



I have serious doubts about the EAF used F-16s theory but lets see.


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## GriffinsRule

Zero chance of any EAF F-16s. Its just wishful thinking.

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## Yasser76

Egyptians giving up Block 52s. The absurdity on this forum reaches new levels.....

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Yasser76 said:


> Egyptians giving up Block 52s. The absurdity on this forum reaches new levels.....


The funny part is that when that doesn't happen, some folks will end up blaming AHQ.

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## Trailer23

mingle said:


> non operational and not link with any Sqdn or Unit means just 20 blk 52 stored there like brand new can you believe


Not that it matters - 'cause we can't even get near those jets, but where exactly does it state that 20 of 'em are in storage.

They have like 218 of 'em in A/B/C/D.

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## joly

Trailer23 said:


> Not that it matters - 'cause we can't even get near those jets, but where exactly does it state that 20 of 'em are in storage.
> 
> They have like 218 of 'em in A/B/C/D.


I have a question for you where is windy bhai is he well he is missing for months that's unusual l hope that he is not sick. You had personal contact with him in the past I hope that you have the answer


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## Trailer23

joly said:


> I have a question for you where is windy bhai is he well he is missing for months that's unusual l hope that he is not sick. You had personal contact with him in the past I hope that you have the answer


In all honesty, I myself have no clue with the disappearance of one of the more popular members of PDF. He always had the scoop ahead of time. The only time anyone used to beat him to the news would be at the odd hours while he was asleep.

I assure you, I did not have any contact with him (in the past). We barely even quoted each other on discussions.

I think I said it in the past, that either he got his Deam Job with the PAF in some capacity - which has resulted in him backing off from his past time duties on PDF.

Or he got hitched, which has put a hold on his activities on PDF - indefinitely.

Maybe one day he'll just pop up on this Thread.

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## joly

Trailer23 said:


> In all honesty, I myself have no clue with the disappearance of one of the more popular members of PDF. He always had the scoop ahead of time. The only time anyone used to beat him to the news would be at the odd hours while he was asleep.
> 
> I assure you, I did not have any contact with him (in the past). We barely even quoted each other on discussions.
> 
> I think I said it in the past, that either he got his Deam Job with the PAF in some capacity - which has resulted in him backing off from his past time duties on PDF.
> 
> Or he got hitched, which has put a hold on his activities on PDF - indefinitely.
> 
> Maybe one day he'll just pop up on this Thread.


Thanks for prompt reply


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## aliyusuf

Trailer23 said:


> In all honesty, I myself have no clue with the disappearance of one of the more popular members of PDF. He always had the scoop ahead of time. The only time anyone used to beat him to the news would be at the odd hours while he was asleep.
> 
> I assure you, I did not have any contact with him (in the past). We barely even quoted each other on discussions.
> 
> I think I said it in the past, that either he got his Deam Job with the PAF in some capacity - which has resulted in him backing off from his past time duties on PDF.
> 
> Or he got hitched, which has put a hold on his activities on PDF - indefinitely.
> 
> Maybe one day he'll just pop up on this Thread.


Ever since his chance meeting with the ACM, he became less frequent in his posts. Maybe it's only my false impression, but could be that the meeting with ACM has some bearing on Windy's less and less posts of late?

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## fatman17

The EAF herk may be delivering knock down mirages or picking up spares for their K8s or it may just be in transit from say central Asia.

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## Talon

joly said:


> I have a question for you where is windy bhai is he well he is missing for months that's unusual l hope that he is not sick. You had personal contact with him in the past I hope that you have the answer





Trailer23 said:


> In all honesty, I myself have no clue with the disappearance of one of the more popular members of PDF. He always had the scoop ahead of time. The only time anyone used to beat him to the news would be at the odd hours while he was asleep.
> 
> I assure you, I did not have any contact with him (in the past). We barely even quoted each other on discussions.
> 
> I think I said it in the past, that either he got his Deam Job with the PAF in some capacity - which has resulted in him backing off from his past time duties on PDF.
> 
> Or he got hitched, which has put a hold on his activities on PDF - indefinitely.
> 
> Maybe one day he'll just pop up on this Thread.


He's on self-ban because of Mastan Khan



fatman17 said:


> The EAF herk may be delivering knock down mirages or picking up spares for their K8s or it may just be in transit from say central Asia.


Mirages are not coming...

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## Pakistani Fighter

Hodor said:


> Mirages are not coming...


Horus will not come?

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## fatman17

Thread

1.All 4 Chinese zdk aewacs operated by Pakistan airforce spotted at Karachi airbase https://t.co/ckLqZVAUsB

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## fatman17

Mirages

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## fatman17

JF17

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## fatman17

C130 or P3C

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## nomi007

fatman17 said:


> C130 or P3C
> View attachment 640892


P3C

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## mikaal hassan

Hodor said:


> He's on self-ban because of Mastan Khan
> 
> 
> Mirages are not coming...



Can we ask Windy brother to come back please may be we can send a SORRY NOTE through ISI PIGEON POST lol he is a senior and respectful member on this forum if HE is angry because of Mastan khan .just tell him to have a bigger heart take it on the chin what ever mastan khan has said .As sometimes we do need a totally different opinion and the way Mastan khan express his opinion he likes to do with Authority lets just say he is like the very PATRIOTIC GENERAL ON THIS FORUM .At the end of the day both Windy Brother and Mastan Khan are Patriotic Pakistani brothers who want best for Pakistan .

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## Armchair

@Windjammer please come back we miss you. We won't let anyone mess with you.

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## mingle

Hodor said:


> He's on self-ban because of Mastan Khan
> 
> 
> Mirages are not coming...


So means most mirages will phase out in next 5yrs so what replacing them??


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## fatman17

Mainly JF17 and future available options. The 3 sqdns of ROSE will continue a bit longer and all the spares accumulation is to ensure their serviceability.


mingle said:


> So means most mirages will phase out in next 5yrs so what replacing them??

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## mingle

fatman17 said:


> Mainly JF17 and future available options. The 3 sqdns of ROSE will continue a bit longer and all the spares accumulation is to ensure their serviceability.


Why Egyptian Hercs are coming Pak? Any idea?also means time to say goodbye old warrior next 7-8yrs

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## fatman17

mingle said:


> Why Egyptian Hercs are coming Pak? Any idea?also means time to say goodbye old warrior next 7-8yrs


Have no idea Bro

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## fatman17

RIP

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## MastanKhan

Hodor said:


> He's on self-ban because of Mastan Khan



Hi,

Oh wow---. Very interesting---. I did not know---. What happened---?

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## Tomcats

mingle said:


> Why Egyptian Hercs are coming Pak? Any idea?also means time to say goodbye old warrior next 7-8yrs


I'm fairly sure they are using them for transporting medical equipment, hence why the flights to Pakistan (if there were any).

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## Nomad40

Trailer23 said:


> In all honesty, I myself have no clue with the disappearance of one of the more popular members of PDF. He always had the scoop ahead of time. The only time anyone used to beat him to the news would be at the odd hours while he was asleep.
> 
> I assure you, I did not have any contact with him (in the past). We barely even quoted each other on discussions.
> 
> I think I said it in the past, that either he got his Deam Job with the PAF in some capacity - which has resulted in him backing off from his past time duties on PDF.
> 
> Or he got hitched, which has put a hold on his activities on PDF - indefinitely.
> 
> Maybe one day he'll just pop up on this Thread.



He should come back-----with good new's preferably.

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## Raider 21

Trailer23 said:


> In all honesty, I myself have no clue with the disappearance of one of the more popular members of PDF. He always had the scoop ahead of time. The only time anyone used to beat him to the news would be at the odd hours while he was asleep.
> 
> I assure you, I did not have any contact with him (in the past). We barely even quoted each other on discussions.
> 
> I think I said it in the past, that either he got his Deam Job with the PAF in some capacity - which has resulted in him backing off from his past time duties on PDF.
> 
> Or he got hitched, which has put a hold on his activities on PDF - indefinitely.
> 
> Maybe one day he'll just pop up on this Thread.


Possibly a lot of reasons. But if a job within PAF, that would mean to get off this forum for good.



mingle said:


> Means used F16s from EAF along Horus mirages make sence for EAF to get rid few so can adjust recent procurements
> Pani pack means 20 blk 52 are in eygpt but are non operational and not link with any Sqdn or Unit means just 20 blk 52 stored there like brand new can you believe and EAF on shopping bonanza


Not possible. They are flying almost all their Vipers regularly.

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## Scorpiooo

Armchair said:


> Fatman17, what is a Pani Pack 20 F-16 block 52? That's a very specific thing to say... we know Egyptian F-16s are watered down versions but... if you were speculating you would have said perhaps F-16s and left it at that... but you made it very very specific...


What is water down version = downgraded version?



Hodor said:


> Mirages are not coming...


Can i ask the reason, is the price or some external pressure make Egyptians backtrack

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## Trailer23

Scorpiooo said:


> What is water down version = downgraded version?


Yeah, a watered down version is as good as Display Aircraft in an Air Show and boosting you have 'em. Print a few T-shirts & get some patches made. Its effective if its up against a Cessna.


> Can i ask the reason, is the price or some external pressure make Egyptians backtrack


There is NO talk of Egyptian F-16's. There never was.

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## Scorpiooo

Trailer23 said:


> Yeah, a watered down version is as good as Display Aircraft in an Air Show and boosting you have 'em. Print a few T-shirts & get some patches made. Its effective if its up against a Cessna.
> 
> There is NO talk of Egyptian F-16's. There never was.


Thanks for clarification about waterdown version, 

Second question about about Egyptians Huros mirages not about F16


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## Armchair

Egyptian F-16s have minimal EW capability and no AMRAAM capability, as far as I know. However, they are still potent fighters. They have the last generation of Sparrows, the same ones used highly successfully during Gulf War I. It's a software update away from being able to use the AMRAAMs.


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## araz

Armchair said:


> Egyptian F-16s have minimal EW capability and no AMRAAM capability, as far as I know. However, they are still potent fighters. They have the last generation of Sparrows, the same ones used highly successfully during Gulf War I. It's a software update away from being able to use the AMRAAMs.


We wont get them so let us not waste bandwidth thinking about it.
The realistic question to ask is whether the Mirages are coming or not.
A

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## fatman17

Closeup of Imaging Infrared #IIR seekers on AIM-9X & PL-10E (high off boresight) #HOBS missiles. That #eyeball is a telescope an eye to sensors behind.

PL-10E will be new SRAAM for JF-17 blk-3 fully enabled by HMDS. #Thunder will trump #PAF F-16s as they’ve JHMCS but no AIM-9X. https://t.co/80gcTT9V5q

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## fatman17

C802 launch from JF17

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## nomi007

Reports are coming that
One of greatest pilot of Pakistan airforce passed away.
Saiful Azam '' Living Eagle is no more''
Rip

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## fatman17

nomi007 said:


> Reports are coming that
> One of greatest pilot of Pakistan airforce passed away.
> Saiful Azam '' Living Eagle is no more''
> Rip


Ace

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## fatman17

Dear Sargodhians

With deep regret this is to inform that Saiful Azam (147A) passed away at around 1300 hrs at Dhaka CMH today (14 June 2020).

Inna lillahe ........................................

May Allah rest his soul in peace.

Aman (390F)

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## Safriz

Another gem from Muddy Khan


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1272137142597230596

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## SD 10

fatman17 said:


> Dear Sargodhians
> 
> With deep regret this is to inform that Saiful Azam (147A) passed away at around 1300 hrs at Dhaka CMH today (14 June 2020).
> 
> Inna lillahe ........................................
> 
> May Allah rest his soul in peace.
> 
> Aman (390F)


R.I.P. Inna lilah i wa inna ilahi rajiun.


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## Talon

Scorpiooo said:


> Can i ask the reason, is the price or some external pressure make Egyptians backtrack


Hmmmm...

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## nomi007



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## Path-Finder

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1272648948159844354

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## syed_yusuf

Path-Finder said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1272648948159844354


Crying wolf

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## mingle

Hodor said:


> Hmmmm...


@Hodor you know what's going on I believe PAF going for more vipers but Indus vipers intrigueing



syed_yusuf said:


> Crying wolf


He wants more funds Pak is a good excuse

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## fatman17

RIP

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## Ali_Baba

In light of India's failed surgical strike on Chinese positions in Ladakh, I think it is fair to assume that India is looking for a media victory to sell to its own masses.

There is a very high possibility of an air operation by IAF against Pakistan, so I hope PAF is alert with the fingers on the triggers. If an IAF aircraft approaches within 10kms of the LOC or International border, PAF should simply shoot it down on sight rather than wait for them to complete an operation and then be forced to react on India's terms.

Prevention is better than cure. I hope PAF has changed its Rules of Engagement to reflect the new reality after what happened yesterday between the PLA and IA. 

Shoot first, ask questions later.. best policy for now.

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## Trailer23

Ali_Baba said:


> Shoot first, ask questions later.. best policy for now.

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## fatman17

Tribute: Masters of the sky

September 05, 2009


Our history is replete with stories of valour and heroism; there is no dearth of bravery in the personnel of our armed forces. The defenders of our land, waters and skies have proven time and again that they can go beyond the call of duty to protect our boundaries. It's difficult to talk about the bravery of all of them in this limited space but here is a brief look at the feats of some of the heroes of our skies that is the personnel of the Pakistan Air Force.


Pilot Officer Rashid Minhas


Rashid Minhas was born on February 17, 1951, and was commissioned in the Air Force on March 13, 1971. He was a man of remarkable courage who became a national hero at the young age of 20!


On August 20, 1971, as a pilot still under training, Rashid Minhas was taxing out a T-33 Jet trainer for take-off, when a Bengali pilot instructor, Flight Lieutenant Mataur Rahman, forced his way into the rear cockpit. In mid-air Rahman knocked Minhas out, seized control of the aircraft and headed towards India. With just 40 miles of Pakistan territory remaining, Minhas regained consciousness and tried to regain control of his aircraft. Failing to do so, he did the only thing within his control to prevent his aircraft from being taken to India — he forced that plane to crash just 32 miles from the Indian border, deliberately sacrificing his life for the honour of Pakistan.


Minhas was posthumously awarded Pakistan's top military honour, the Nishan-i-Haider, and became the youngest man and the only member of the Pakistan Air Force to win the award.



Squadron Leader Muhammad Mahmood Alam


Sqd Ldr Muhammad Mahmood Alam was born on July 6, 1935, in Calcutta, India. He is popularly known as M.M. Alam and nicknamed 'Little Dragon'.


M.M. Alam is well-known for his feats in the 1965 Indo-Pakistan war when he was posted at Sargodha. He was involved in various dogfights while flying his F-86 Sabre jet equipped with AIM-9 Sidewinder missiles. He shot down nine fighters, six of them Hunters of the Indian Air Force, in air-to-air combats, five of them in less than a minute, which remains a record.


For his exceptional flying skill and valour, M.M. Alam was awarded Sitara-i-Juraat and a bar to his Sitara-i-Juraat. He retired in 1982 as an Air Commodore.


Squadron Leader Sarfraz Ahmad Rafiqui


On September 6, 1965, Sqn Ldr Sarfraz Rafiqui led a formation of three F-86 aircraft on a strike against Halwara airfield. The formation was intercepted by about 10 Hunter aircrafts, out of which Rafiqui shot down one in the first few seconds. Soon after, his guns jammed due to a defect and stopped firing. Still, he refused to leave the battle area and ordered his second-in-command to take over as leader and continue the engagement, while he tried to provide protection to his formation.


Before his aircraft was shot down, his action enabled his formation to shoot down three more Hunter aircrafts. Sqn Ldr Rafiqui's conduct was clearly beyond the call of duty and conformed to the highest tradition of leadership and bravery in battle against overwhelming odds.


For his bravery and selfless leadership he was posthumously awarded the Hilal-i-Jurat. Pakistan's third airbase Rafiqui Airbase (Shorkot Cantonment) is named after him.


Squadron Leader Alauddin Ahmed


Sqn Ldr Alauddin Ahmed led his squadron in 20 combat missions against the Indian ground and air forces. His leadership throughout the operations inspired the greatest confidence among the pilots of his formations and resulted in the destruction of many Indian tanks and vehicles.


In his last sortie, he attacked and blew up an important ammunition train at Gurdaspur rail-head, completely disregarding his personal safety. During this attack on September 13, his aircraft was damaged and was reported missing over enemy territory. Later, it was confirmed that he had died during the mission. For his exemplary leadership, courage and valour, Squadron Leader Alauddin Ahmed was awarded Sitara-i-Juraat.


Flight Lieutenant Saiful Azam


Flight Lieutenant Saiful Azam has the unique distinction of having kills against air forces of two different countries. As a young Flying Officer, Saiful Azam shot down an Indian Air Force Gnat during the 1965 War which earned him a Sitara-i-Jurat.


After the 1965 war, on the request of some Arab countries, some PAF pilots were deputed to the air forces of Jordon, Syria, Iraq and Egypt. During the 1967 Arab-Israel war, these pilots participated in defensive combat operations.


Saiful Azam, on deputation to the joint command of the Royal Jordanian Air force and the Iraqi Air Force, became the first Pakistani pilot to score against the Israeli Air Force. He shot down a Vatour Bomber, a super Mystere, and a Mirage IIIC in only two missions. To date, he remains the highest shooter of Israeli aircrafts.


He received various gallantry awards from both Jordan and Iraq for his extraordinary skill and courage. He retired as a Group Captain from Bangladesh Air Force. In 2001, he was honoured by the United States Air Force (USAF) and enjoys the status of being one of the 22 'Living Eagles' of the world.



Squadron Leader Abdul Hameed Qadri


On May 17, 1986, while on a routine CAP (Combat Air Patrol), Sqn Ldr Hameed Qadri was directed by the radar control to intercept four Afghan SU-22 aircrafts violating Pakistani air space near Parachinar. When his missiles failed to launch, he closed in with the enemy aircraft and shot down two SU-22s with his guns.


For his gallantry Sqn Ldr Hameen Qadri was awarded Sitara-i-Basalat and rose to the rank of Air Commodore. On July 20, 2002, A. H. Qadri (then Air Commodore and Base Commander PAF Minhas-Kamra) died in an air crash while flying a F-7P aircraft.


Flt Lt Khalid Mehmood


On September 12, 1988, Flight Lieutenant Khalid Mahmood, leading a formation of two F-16s, intercepted a formation of six Mig-23s intruding from Afghanistan. In a quick action he shot down two Mig-23 aircraft and later, on November 3, the same year, he challenged a formation of three Afghan SU-22s near Kohat, and after a short dogfight shot down one of the planes.


The wreckage of the Afghan Su-22 fell near Thal on the bank of river Kurram. The entire incident was observed from the ground by personnel of the Pakistan Army and some locals.


Flt Lt Muhammad Wasim Ansari


Flight Lieutenant Muhammad Wasim Ansari, a signals officer became a martyr as a result of a direct bomb hit on his place of work. The officer, inspired by a feeling of patriotism, carried on working under extremely dangerous conditions and has been awarded the Tamgha-i-Basalat.


— Compiled by Rizwana Naqvi

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## ejaz007

15 MAY 2019 00:00 GMT+0

*Pakistan Air Force moves into former Islamabad airport*
by Alan Warnes



The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has taken over Islamabad’s former Benazir Bhutto International Airport, located on the outskirts of the adjacent city of Rawalpindi. PAF Base Nur Khan, which had previously shared the runway and taxiways with the airport, is now responsible for the large passenger terminal and the adjacent ramp where the airliners once parked.





Il-78 aircraft have now moved onto the ramp of Pakistan’s former Benazir Bhutto International Airport, which has now become part of PAF Base Nur Khan. (Alan Warnes)

The large apron is now home to No 10 Squadron’s four Il-78 multirole tanker transport aircraft, which can now taxi to the runway without having to manoeuvre around the PAF’s other aircraft. In the near future the PAF’s passenger terminal, which is currently housed inside a small building in the base’s complex, will also be relocated.

There are several shelter areas at the airport that are used for drills or high levels of alert. During the recent stand-off with India, known locally as Operation ‘Swift Retort’, a detachment of PAF JF-17 Thunder fighter aircraft were deployed to the base to defend Islamabad.

The PAF’s Chief of the Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan, told _Janes_ he expected more operational squadrons to move to the larger base, including a helicopter unit. It is unclear, however, whether a permanent fighter unit is also expected to move in.

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/...air-force-moves-into-former-islamabad-airport

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## fatman17

China [emoji630]: #PAF installs #Anti -Stealth radar 

#Pakistan [emoji1191] #Airforce deploys cutting edge JY-27A Very High Frequency (VHF Band) #Counterstealth Radar system. The Radar is believed to be capable of detecting #Stealth aircraft from a distance of 500km. https://t.co/CWXPqd9Eoi

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## Pakistani Fighter

fatman17 said:


> China [emoji630]: #PAF installs #Anti -Stealth radar
> 
> #Pakistan [emoji1191] #Airforce deploys cutting edge JY-27A Very High Frequency (VHF Band) #Counterstealth Radar system. The Radar is believed to be capable of detecting #Stealth aircraft from a distance of 500km. https://t.co/CWXPqd9Eoi


Old news. BTW we have YLC 18A right? Do you know its range as compared to JY 27A?

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## Talon



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## truthseeker2010

Hodor said:


> View attachment 643059
> View attachment 643061
> View attachment 643062



Howz the situation at LOC? post pulwama level?

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## Salman876

truthseeker2010 said:


> Howz the situation at LOC? post pulwama level?


situation is normal, hot normal

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## truthseeker2010

Salman876 said:


> situation is normal, hot normal



Since IAF has moved M29, MKIs in Leh, PAF would also have moved to skardu. That is not normal.

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## truthseeker2010

TheTallGuy said:


> Something I had posted today somewhere else..This is latest from Leh AF (The have deployed AH64D and Su-30MKI not based at Leh) honestly this should not have filmed...censured...



You cannot hide these AF movements. Since Leh is a city and there are so many vantage points around mountains.


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## Falcon26

TheTallGuy said:


> Something I had posted today somewhere else..This is latest from Leh AF (The have deployed AH64D and Su-30MKI not based at Leh) honestly this should not have filmed...censured...



It’s a a silly drama concocted by Modi and the Hindu nationalists. China has exposed them as a toothless paper tiger and so these silly stunts are being done to tell their people india is strong enough to stand up to China. The truth couldn’t be any further. A nation addicted to Bollywood will buy this stunt.

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## fatman17

A #PAF JF-17 assigned to the no. 14 Squadron "Tail Choppers" loaded with two 2 Range Extension Kit (REK) modified bombs.

(Image via Zohaib Malik) https://t.co/KgQmrDdc7d

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## fatman17

Another iamge of the second JF-17B prototype no. 0002 carrying two CS/BBF1 FAE bombs

(Image via @JacKsonbobo at Weibo) https://t.co/C3y1NiyYxG

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## Salza

PAF chief met PM Imran Khan today. Discussed regional situation and other stuff.

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## TsAr

Salza said:


> PAF chief met PM Imran Khan today. Discussed regional situation and other stuff.


more interested in the other stuff...

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## mingle

Salza said:


> PAF chief met PM Imran Khan today. Discussed regional situation and other stuff.


It's pure related to PAF requirements I guess file is ready

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## AMRAAM

Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan called on Prime Minister Imran Khan at Islamabad today.
Matters pertaining to Pakistan Air Force were discussed during the meeting.










__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=4850180431691005

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## AMRAAM

Let's hope it's related to some procurement.

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## Imran Khan

AMRAAM said:


> Let's hope it's related to some procurement.


gen sahab hal chaal poochny ayee thy ke VVIP planes main koi takleef to nhi ho rahi . driver conector sab theek to hain na

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## HRK



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## khansaheeb

PM is asking air chief if he has enough tea for Indian pilots and not to make it too tasty as they will come and visit again.

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## Readerdefence

Imran Khan said:


> gen sahab hal chaal poochny ayee thy ke VVIP planes main koi takleef to nhi ho rahi . driver conector sab theek to hain na


Hi when will the present chief is retiring? 
Any info sir 
Thank you


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## cocomo

India has called Pakistan's bluff. India has a habit of calling people's bluff and later finding out they aren't bluffing.

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## Arsalan 345

India is getting at least 2 squadrons(probably 34 jets) from russia on emergency basis. not good for us because india can use diversion tactics and instead attacking china,attack pakistan.

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## Trailer23

Arsalan 345 said:


> India is getting at least 2 squadrons(probably 34 jets) from russia on emergency basis. not good for us because india can use diversion tactics and instead attacking china,attack pakistan.


Someday, someone will have to give me true definition 'Emergency Basis'.

It's not going to the local Toyota dealership and picking up 30-40 Hiace vans for your Transport business.

India has asked foe 21 MiG-29's and 12 Su-30MK's.

Now, they could get those MiG-29's from storage - but Su-30's aren't coming off the assembly like instant popcorn.

I think we're looking too much into India's Defense procurement.

I'm actually more interested how the US is looking at it. First India played down the MRCA 2.0 by laying off the competition with their own local LCA Tejas and now are going back to their main supplier - Russia.

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## HRK

Readerdefence said:


> Hi when will the present chief is retiring?
> Any info sir
> Thank you


probably next year in March or April .....

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## NA71

Imran Khan said:


> gen sahab hal chaal poochny ayee thy ke VVIP planes main koi takleef to nhi ho rahi . driver conector sab theek to hain na



IK described what is smart lock down...and Covid is simple flu....and if IAF comes...Ghabrana nahein hy.

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## Esgalduin

NA71 said:


> IK described what is smart lock down...and Covid is simple flu....and if IAF comes...Ghabrana nahein hy.


Sir, ever since we discovered that COVID-19 is airborne, we have secretly been in talks to buy Mospel-fitted, diesel fuelled F-16s. In Sha Allah under the leadership of Zartaj Gul and Maulana Fazlur Rahman, we will defeat this threat.

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## mingle

AMRAAM said:


> Let's hope it's related to some procurement.


I believe so matter of PAF means procurement also shows PAF made final decision let's hope for best.


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## Thorough Pro

Nothing buying as COVID-19 has severely affected any possibility of allocation for military buying.

The meeting was just the regular weekly briefing on the readiness of PAF to discourage any Balakot type misadventure due to frustration and humiliation of Indian government at the hands of China.

PM has a given a free hand this time to take out as many Indian fighters as PAF can lock, in PM's own words, "don't be frugal on using the BVR missiles"

those who know the code "SDK-KM" would know... keep it quiet, please.



Salza said:


> PAF chief met PM Imran Khan today. Discussed regional situation and other stuff.

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## mingle

Thorough Pro said:


> Nothing buying as COVID-19 has severely affected any possibility of allocation for military buying.
> 
> The meeting was just the regular weekly briefing on the readiness of PAF to discourage any Balakot type misadventure due to frustration and humiliation of Indian government at the hands of China.
> 
> PM has a given a free hand this time to take out as many Indian fighters as PAF can lock, in PM's own words, "don't be frugal on using the BVR missiles"
> 
> those who know the code "SDK-KM" would know... keep it quiet, please.


So Air Cheif was explaining tactics to PM at PM house both must have a lot of free time.

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## Yasser76

mingle said:


> So Air Cheif was explaining tactics to PM at PM house both must have a lot of free time.



Another ignorant post. China and India has their worst clash in 45 years, India is deploying lots of fighters and Helicopters near Ladakh and near our border. Don't you think it prudent PM gets an update on the situation from the guy who can give him the big picture?

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## Shameel

*
Article on "India and the US-Pakistan F-16 Agreement" published by the Centre for Aerospace & Security Studies, Islamabad:*

https://casstt.com/post/india-and-the-us-pakistan-f-16-agreement/219

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## Arsalan 345

Trailer23 said:


> Someday, someone will have to give me true definition 'Emergency Basis'.
> 
> It's not going to the local Toyota dealership and picking up 30-40 Hiace vans for your Transport business.
> 
> India has asked foe 21 MiG-29's and 12 Su-30MK's.
> 
> Now, they could get those MiG-29's from storage - but Su-30's aren't coming off the assembly like instant popcorn.
> 
> I think we're looking too much into India's Defense procurement.
> 
> I'm actually more interested how the US is looking at it. First India played down the MRCA 2.0 by laying off the competition with their own local LCA Tejas and now are going back to their main supplier - Russia.



I agree. It will take some time but it will add 2 squadrons in their fleet which is a problem. We need block 3 asap.

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## Tps43

Readerdefence said:


> Hi when will the present chief is retiring?
> Any info sir
> Thank you


18 march 2021

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## Trailer23

Arsalan 345 said:


> I agree. It will take some time but it will add 2 squadrons in their fleet which is a problem. We need block 3 asap.


Don't fret - a few crashes by themselves will automatically take care of that number.

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## Armchair

They seem to have relatively straight forward options to expanding their fleet quite rapidly. PAF doesn't have the same support because of the F-16 / US debacle. Had PAF gotten some J-10s, they could easily boost numbers in an emergency from China.

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## araz

NA71 said:


> IK described what is smart lock down...and Covid is simple flu....and if IAF comes...Ghabrana nahein hy.


Smart lockdown is a known terminology as is the theory(howsoever defective) behind it.
Covid is a simple Flu. It is simple in the sense of being devastating like the Spanish Flu was till people grew immunity to it. At the end of the day it is flu at its initial stage before people gain immunity to it. 2.5 million people died of Spanish Flu.
pakistan is a nation of people with Knee jerk reactions. So the advice is a good one. Here in UK in spite of having first world NHS, 40K + people have perished from Covid. US has lost 110K people and we are maligning everyone under the sun for 3000 deaths. it maybe that another 10000 will die but it will still be less than a tenth of what the EU and the US have had. i think Pakistan has done relatively well so far. But carry on maligning!!!
A

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## ziaulislam

araz said:


> Smart lockdown is a known terminology as is the theory(howsoever defective) behind it.
> Covid is a simple Flu. It is simple in the sense of being devastating like the Spanish Flu was till people grew immunity to it. At the end of the day it is flu at its initial stage before people gain immunity to it. 2.5 million people died of Spanish Flu.
> pakistan is a nation of people with Knee jerk reactions. So the advice is a good one. Here in UK in spite of having first world NHS, 40K + people have perished from Covid. US has lost 110K people and we are maligning everyone under the sun for 3000 deaths. it maybe that another 10000 will die but it will still be less than a tenth of what the EU and the US have had. i think Pakistan has done relatively well so far. But carry on maligning!!!
> A


in Pakistan,lockdown was more devastating the COVID itself.
we are talking about a country where child mortality is and maternal mortality is 100 higher than western countries..where half of the population is malnourished and the average age is just 63 years

one of the reason for lower mortality is that a regular flu pretty much thins out the vulnerable population in Pakistan each year 10,000s die from "pneumonias" in Pakistan that are preventable in other countries (like iran where everyone gets flushot and average age is 77)
hence when covid hit, the countries that had vulnerable populations suffered the most but African countries and pakistan where vulnerable populations dies every year ..nothing really happened..

this should be an eye opner..pakistan is living in 24/7 COVID like disaster for last 50 years..people are dying from hunger, sepsis, pneumonia (preventable Pneumovax 13 & 23), flu (preventable by influenza shot), varicella(preventable by varicella vaccine), measles, polio ...lets not even talk about immunocompromised..we dont have any..as we dont have any medications to make people immunocompromised..
*
we simply killed off the high-risk population before the COVID came..does this mean we did better...its ironic*

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## Armchair

I was reading wondering what in the world smart lockdown is in military aviation. Seems I had never encountered this term. Started wondering if it had something to do with a "smart" way to lock onto an enemy aircraft until I read the post and realized it had nothing to do with PAF or military aviation at all! FYI Bangladesh is also following a very similar smart lock down policy.

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## Syed1.

araz said:


> Smart lockdown is a known terminology as is the theory(howsoever defective) behind it.
> Covid is a simple Flu. It is simple in the sense of being devastating like the Spanish Flu was till people grew immunity to it. At the end of the day it is flu at its initial stage before people gain immunity to it. 2.5 million people died of Spanish Flu.
> pakistan is a nation of people with Knee jerk reactions. So the advice is a good one. Here in UK in spite of having first world NHS, 40K + people have perished from Covid. US has lost 110K people and we are maligning everyone under the sun for 3000 deaths. it maybe that another 10000 will die but it will still be less than a tenth of what the EU and the US have had. i think Pakistan has done relatively well so far. But carry on maligning!!!
> A


Sir no point explaining it to them. I am sure they have the mental capabilities to come to the same conclusion that 3000 deaths vs 40,000 or 120,000 is definitely better. Yet they continue to bad mouth and spew nonsense. It's almost as if IK is responsible for corona in the world, or IK should personally go to each citizen give him/her a mask and a 15 minute lecture on corona safety precautions. IK should also roam the streets of the cities and towns checking if people are adhering to social distancing.


Jahil quam hai, they deserve to be raped by Nawaz and Zardari. I hope IK retires after this term and let the dogs ravage the country ones more. Atleast the nation would be happy.

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## Raider 21

araz said:


> Smart lockdown is a known terminology as is the theory(howsoever defective) behind it.
> Covid is a simple Flu. It is simple in the sense of being devastating like the Spanish Flu was till people grew immunity to it. At the end of the day it is flu at its initial stage before people gain immunity to it. 2.5 million people died of Spanish Flu.
> pakistan is a nation of people with Knee jerk reactions. So the advice is a good one. Here in UK in spite of having first world NHS, 40K + people have perished from Covid. US has lost 110K people and we are maligning everyone under the sun for 3000 deaths. it maybe that another 10000 will die but it will still be less than a tenth of what the EU and the US have had. i think Pakistan has done relatively well so far. But carry on maligning!!!
> A


It definitely will increase in South Asian countries and since most of the world has learned the hard way so will countries like Pakistan. 3 of my own relatives passed away from it, all largely due to negligence. The armed forces thankfully have been taking it far more seriously than the civilian population. The estimated numbers for Pakistan for Covid related deaths is going to be around 1 million or more by the end of the year with their current rate and medical system. Maybe after another million dead would probably yield in serious protective measures.



Syed1. said:


> Sir no point explaining it to them. I am sure they have the mental capabilities to come to the same conclusion that 3000 deaths vs 40,000 or 120,000 is definitely better. Yet they continue to bad mouth and spew nonsense. It's almost as if IK is responsible for corona in the world, or IK should personally go to each citizen give him/her a mask and a 15 minute lecture on corona safety precautions. IK should also roam the streets of the cities and towns checking if people are adhering to social distancing.
> 
> 
> Jahil quam hai, they deserve to be raped by Nawaz and Zardari.* I hope IK retires after this term and let the dogs ravage the country ones more. Atleast the nation would be happy*.


But they'll be bickering again when more garbage starts running the country. A non-grateful nation will always be bickering, without sacrificing for the greater long term good.

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## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/AgustaWestland-AW139/2759

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## TsAr

araz said:


> Smart lockdown is a known terminology as is the theory(howsoever defective) behind it.
> Covid is a simple Flu. It is simple in the sense of being devastating like the Spanish Flu was till people grew immunity to it. At the end of the day it is flu at its initial stage before people gain immunity to it. 2.5 million people died of Spanish Flu.
> pakistan is a nation of people with Knee jerk reactions. So the advice is a good one. Here in UK in spite of having first world NHS, 40K + people have perished from Covid. US has lost 110K people and we are maligning everyone under the sun for 3000 deaths. it maybe that another 10000 will die but it will still be less than a tenth of what the EU and the US have had. i think Pakistan has done relatively well so far. But carry on maligning!!!
> A


People donot want to take precautions and are bent upon blaming Ik or the government....Has IK ever stopped people from wearing masks....

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## NA71

Now US look for real opportunity
*US warned India that MiG-29s and Su-30s wouldn’t help against China*
https://bulgarianmilitary.com/amp/2...help-against-china/?__twitter_impression=true



araz said:


> Smart lockdown is a known terminology as is the theory(howsoever defective) behind it.
> Covid is a simple Flu. It is simple in the sense of being devastating like the Spanish Flu was till people grew immunity to it. At the end of the day it is flu at its initial stage before people gain immunity to it. 2.5 million people died of Spanish Flu.
> pakistan is a nation of people with Knee jerk reactions. So the advice is a good one. Here in UK in spite of having first world NHS, 40K + people have perished from Covid. US has lost 110K people and we are maligning everyone under the sun for 3000 deaths. it maybe that another 10000 will die but it will still be less than a tenth of what the EU and the US have had. i think Pakistan has done relatively well so far. But carry on maligning!!!
> A


Not maligning any one....only pointing out sheer stupidity even old PTI supporters like me crying for whats happening here...

Loot mar machi hy in healthcare sector ...from doctors to medical drugs providers .....one day ICU charges reaches 100000 rupees....12000 injecction reaches 150000 ....plasma one point being sold at 350000 ......and the govt is no where.....

off topic ...but very sad.....this is all happening in madina ki riasat .... model

I have been in quarintine for last 15 days ...my doctor guided me through whtsapp and I am Allhamdolliah recovered from Covid19...

The very first advice was do not go to any hospital yet and try to take the steps as being suggested.... Otherwise your entire family will be in trouble ....

With your very first step in hospital with covid .... The staff will ask you for heavy deposit or leave.....

Karachi to kpk this is all happening here....first hand experience...


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## Salza

Armchair said:


> Had PAF gotten some J-10s, they could easily boost numbers in an emergency from China.



Jf17 block 3 was supposed to this what you mentioned but unfortunately even that program is taking more time than expected. Block 3 was supposed to be with PAF by 2018 but now first delivery is expected in 2021.

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## Armchair

Salza said:


> Jf17 block 3 was supposed to this what you mentioned but unfortunately even that program is taking more time than expected. Block 3 was supposed to be with PAF by 2018 but now first delivery is expected in 2021.




What I meant was that in an emergency, China could divert some of its stock of J-10s to Pak. During a war, this can be a real boost.


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## GriffinsRule

Armchair said:


> What I meant was that in an emergency, China could divert some of its stock of J-10s to Pak. During a war, this can be a real boost.


Not really. Pakistan or PAF is not going to completely lose its fighters in a short war. The re-equipment phase after the war is where the Chinese help would be needed, and that can come in the shape of additional JF-17s produced in China. No need for the J-10, esp since even if we got a new type tomorrow, it would take almost 2 years to have it integrated into the PAF. 
The only answer is more JF-17s and F-16s in the short to medium term. Long-term we are already focused on AZM

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## Armchair

GriffinsRule said:


> Not really. Pakistan or PAF is not going to completely lose its fighters in a short war. The re-equipment phase after the war is where the Chinese help would be needed, and that can come in the shape of additional JF-17s produced in China. No need for the J-10, esp since even if we got a new type tomorrow, it would take almost 2 years to have it integrated into the PAF.
> The only answer is more JF-17s and F-16s in the short to medium term. Long-term we are already focused on AZM



There was a crisis during the 1990s or early 2000s. I still remember it. Pak was having a very belligerent India wanting to attack it. The Chinese quickly sent F-7s to quickly build up numbers. Hostilities never started, but that help came in handy. Today this is not possible because there is no shared platform.

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## GriffinsRule

Armchair said:


> There was a crisis during the 1990s or early 2000s. I still remember it. Pak was having a very belligerent India wanting to attack it. The Chinese quickly sent F-7s to quickly build up numbers. Hostilities never started, but that help came in handy. Today this is not possible because there is no shared platform.


Good thing that PAF now is much stronger than it was in the 90s. As for the shared platform, they can still send us F-7PGs ... or perhaps PLAAF will buy JF-17s too. I like that idea even better.

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## PanzerKiel

Armchair said:


> There was a crisis during the 1990s or early 2000s. I still remember it. Pak was having a very belligerent India wanting to attack it. The Chinese quickly sent F-7s to quickly build up numbers. Hostilities never started, but that help came in handy. Today this is not possible because there is no shared platform.




.... And then, once upon a time , Chinese told us that just bring in your pilots and fly as much aircraft.... of a specific type.... as you want....

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## Armchair

PanzerKiel said:


> .... And then, once upon a time , Chinese told us that just bring in your pilots and fly as much aircraft.... of a specific type.... as you want....



Interesting... F-7s I guess. Must have saved pilot hours during the Pressler years.

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## PanzerKiel

Armchair said:


> Interesting... F-7s I guess. Must have saved pilot hours during the Pressler years.



A bit before Pressler.

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## Blacklight

PanzerKiel said:


> .... And then, once upon a time , Chinese told us that just bring in your pilots and fly as much aircraft.... of a specific type.... as you want....


This policy and more is still valid today.

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## Tipu7

Blacklight said:


> This policy and more is still valid today.


Infact deepened further...

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## araz

Armchair said:


> What I meant was that in an emergency, China could divert some of its stock of J-10s to Pak. During a war, this can be a real boost.


Firstly arecyou sure the Chinese were willing to sell at least the J10Cs to PAF?
Secondly are you sure that the AL31FN has been Cleared for export to PAF?
Lastly why do you think PAF remains reluctant to purchase J10 with WS10 till recently?
Your answers are there in front of you and yet you ask the question. You know that in aviation world a new product fulfills local needs before being exported. You also know that AL31FN has not only not been cleared for export toPAF. Our pilots witnessed massive flameouts of the engine which deterred them. There are issues with spares supply as well. Lastly I still think WS10 needs to mature before PAF will put its money on the line.
I still think all these stories of j this or that are more fiction than truth. I think they are being spread for specific purposes and the target is what we already have for ease of induction and available expertise to fly the platform. 
A

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## Yasser76

Armchair said:


> There was a crisis during the 1990s or early 2000s. I still remember it. Pak was having a very belligerent India wanting to attack it. The Chinese quickly sent F-7s to quickly build up numbers. Hostilities never started, but that help came in handy. Today this is not possible because there is no shared platform.



This is a good point a common type would of helped greatly as Pakistani industry and forces would have the massive backing of Chinese industry, but as you point out, extra numbers in time of need, similar to how Israeli pilots were flying freshly delivered USAF Phantoms in USAF colours that were rushed over during the 1973 War.

China is unable to do this in Pakistan and in an ideal world if PAF was flying 200 JF-17s and China flying 600 JF-17s this would have been a perfect situation. Unfortunately never happened for many reasons, 10-20 years ago Chinese aviation was nowhere near where it is now, even when we got F-7s we needed to put in new navigation gear, radar, communications and ejection seats. Even 36 J-10Cs right now would be a good as PAF could build up a ecosystem of pilots, infrastructure and weapons so that in war we could simply double numbers. I think it is too late for this now as PAF has thrown in it's lot with JF-17 Block III and AZM. These two projects alone will scoop up all the funds we have. 

In an ideal world it could be that AZM is essentially a J-31 this will solve many problems, especially if the tweaks PAF make to it are relatively minor so that Chinese J-31s could easily integrate into our own forces

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## Thorough Pro

Don't be ludicrous. 

All those ISI briefings were held to introduce the ISI pigeon agents to the PM?

You think he was discussing the colour and trim of the new fighters for which there is neither any willing supplier nor any money.

The meeting was strictly about the border situation and PAF's readiness and potential intensity of response this time. PM said he has given them ample opportunities to come to the table for peace talks, now they need to be taken to the cleaners






mingle said:


> So Air Cheif was explaining tactics to PM at PM house both must have a lot of free time.

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## MastanKhan

Armchair said:


> There was a crisis during the 1990s or early 2000s. I still remember it. Pak was having a very belligerent India wanting to attack it. The Chinese quickly sent F-7s to quickly build up numbers. Hostilities never started, but that help came in handy. Today this is not possible because there is no shared platform.



HI,

What you are not telling the readers is that modern fighter aircraft are a different breed---.

If china gave us the J20 on the day of war or if the US gave us the F22---we would not be able to do diddley with them---because it takes years to get familiar with modern 21st century aircrafts---.

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## Armchair

MastanKhan said:


> HI,
> 
> What you are not telling the readers is that modern fighter aircraft are a different breed---.
> 
> If china gave us the J20 on the day of war or if the US gave us the F22---we would not be able to do diddley with them---because it takes years to get familiar with modern 21st century aircrafts---.



I kind of implied the same when I suggested that if the PAF operated the J-10, they could quickly be sent aircraft to increase numbers. Even with a J-7, there is a learning curve, if you are moving up from a Sabre. There would also be a learning curve in moving from a JF-17 to a J-10, as their aerodynamics are very different. Not knowing how the cockpit differs, but there is always a difference there as well. 

Fighter pilots have to not only be simply familiar, but have to exercise that innumerable times, until it becomes a reflex. This takes time as well.

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## Shabi1

Armchair said:


> There was a crisis during the 1990s or early 2000s. I still remember it. Pak was having a very belligerent India wanting to attack it. The Chinese quickly sent F-7s to quickly build up numbers. Hostilities never started, but that help came in handy. Today this is not possible because there is no shared platform.


But the munitions are shared and smart munitions/SOW have gained more importance now. China can still send rush deliveries of ammunition and missiles.

Also in recent exercises with PAF, one of the goals was interoperability so perhaps there is still some mechanism of pilots having know how in case they have to fly PLAAF platforms in emergency. 

However this is a topic that no one with the right knowledge will divulge and we will only find out in time of war.

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## Imran Khan

Armchair said:


> There was a crisis during the 1990s or early 2000s. I still remember it. Pak was having a very belligerent India wanting to attack it. The Chinese quickly sent F-7s to quickly build up numbers. Hostilities never started, but that help came in handy. Today this is not possible because there is no shared platform.


Tiday its more then f7 today china can made for us dozens of thunders and weapons sir

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## Armchair

Imran Khan said:


> Tiday its more then f7 today china can made for us dozens of thunders and weapons sir



If they make the jets, it will take time to manufacture them, and then test them. This is a considerable amount of time. With J-10 or another platform that is common to both forces, they can simply send from their stocks. Which, as @MastanKhan pointed out, is not possible because PAF will need time to operationalize a new platform.

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## Imran Khan

Armchair said:


> If they make the jets, it will take time to manufacture them, and then test them. This is a considerable amount of time. With J-10 or another platform that is common to both forces, they can simply send from their stocks. Which, as @MastanKhan pointed out, is not possible because PAF will need time to operationalize a new platform.


They can make faster then we can dream of sir. Chinese speed is Super

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## Armchair

Imran Khan said:


> They can make faster then we can dream of sir. Chinese speed is Super



Combat aircraft production doesn't work like that my friend.

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## Imran Khan

Armchair said:


> Combat aircraft production doesn't work like that my friend.


I know how its work or war times sir.normal times are something else but war time countries made thousands of fighter jets in past too.

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## fatman17

I just realised that the Egypt F16s, 220 odd don't have AMRAAMS, Wow!


Scorpiooo said:


> What is water down version = downgraded version?
> 
> 
> Can i ask the reason, is the price or some external pressure make Egyptians backtrack

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## Yasser76

fatman17 said:


> I just realised that the Egypt F16s, 220 odd don't have AMRAAMS, Wow!



Israel

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## Scorpiooo

fatman17 said:


> I just realised that the Egypt F16s, 220 odd don't have AMRAAMS, Wow!


That is most probably, bcuz majority are got free or subsidized via American aid to remain quite agisnt Israel as deal of 1.2 billion per year

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## Armchair

fatman17 said:


> I just realised that the Egypt F16s, 220 odd don't have AMRAAMS, Wow!



They have the last and best Sparrows. The same ones used successfully in BVR by the US in GWI


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## Yasser76

Armchair said:


> They have the last and best Sparrows. The same ones used successfully in BVR by the US in GWI



That is a bit like saying they have the last and best Lee Enfield rifles too......

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## araz

Armchair said:


> If they make the jets, it will take time to manufacture them, and then test them. This is a considerable amount of time. With J-10 or another platform that is common to both forces, they can simply send from their stocks. Which, as @MastanKhan pointed out, is not possible because PAF will need time to operationalize a new platform.


I think this is a bit of a pipe dream. You may have a jet but you need trained manpower to run and maintain it. You need to develop techniques to use the platforms to their best capability and that cannot happen if you just fly them by the by. If we buy J10s now it will take upto 5 to 8 years to get them in a shape where we can effectively utilize them. This is why we need to think of how we are going to manage the upcoming situation. 
By the way why does no one think that China has an assembly line for JFT and can assemble them a lot quicker and these platforms can be utilized a lot more effectively than the j10s.
A



Scorpiooo said:


> That is most probably, bcuz majority are got free or subsidized via American aid to remain quite against Israel as deal of 1.2 billion per year


I think the reason is they don't want any force to be able to challenge the Israeli Air force. The Jewish Caucus in US wants to feed the Egyptians toothless tigers to keep them happy while knowing fully well they are well looked after in case the tiger turns side. 
A



Imran Khan said:


> They can make faster then we can dream of sir. Chinese speed is Super


Khan Saheb
They may well have to manufacture them in emergency. In case of a war Kamra will be targeted initially.
A

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## Yasser76

Seems like F-16 support work

Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Co., Fort Worth, Texas, has been awarded an estimated $44,055,036 firm-fixed-price and cost-reimbursable contract for contractor engineering and technical services engine support for Air National Guard and Foreign Military Sales partners. Work will be performed in Thailand; Iraq; Jordan; Taiwan; Turkey; Bahrain; Morocco; Egypt; Chile; Pakistan; Indonesia; Oman; Utah; Texas; and Florida, and is expected to be completed June 30, 2023. This award is the result of a sole-source acquisition and is a basic indefinite-delivery/indefinite-quantity contract. No funds will be obligated at award. Air Force Life Cycle Management Center, Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Ohio, is the contracting activity (FA8604-20-D-8002).

https://www.defense.gov/Newsroom/Contracts/Contract/Article/2226670/

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## Tair-Lahoti

Is it new for PAC? 

F-16 Fighting Falcon of PAF repaired by PAC Kamra after it got damaged during a bombing mission on terrorist hideouts.

SOURCE: PakistanStrategicForum

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## TOPGUN

Tair-Lahoti said:


> Is it new for PAC?
> 
> F-16 Fighting Falcon of PAF repaired by PAC Kamra after it got damaged during a bombing mission on terrorist hideouts.
> 
> SOURCE: PakistanStrategicForum
> View attachment 644379




No old news but not so old already posted before and discussed !

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## Inception-06

TOPGUN said:


> No old news but not so old already posted before and discussed !


 
How it was destroyed ? Enemy ground fire ?


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## Pakistani Fighter

Inception-06 said:


> How it was destroyed ? Enemy ground fire ?


Unexploded Bomb If I remember

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## GriffinsRule

Pakistani Fighter said:


> Unexploded Bomb If I remember


Rather bomb exploded prematurely after being dropped and the aircraft was hit by shrapnel

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## SoftKill

ATAK delivery continues


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1276070140870905856

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## ARMalik

SoftKill said:


> ATAK delivery continues
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1276070140870905856



What about the much hyped engine problem? Is it a problem at all or just an imagination by some here?


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## TOPGUN

Inception-06 said:


> How it was destroyed ? Enemy ground fire ?



Bomb exploded as it was on a terrorist op the pilot managed to save the aircraft and land it, later our boys repaired the aircraft and its back to normal flight status.



SoftKill said:


> ATAK delivery continues
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1276070140870905856



Yes brother, but none to PAA that's what is sad !!!!

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## Viper27

ARMalik said:


> What about the much hyped engine problem? Is it a problem at all or just an imagination by some here?



Issue is with export licenses. No problem with internal acquisitions.

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## Readerdefence

Scorpiooo said:


> That is most probably, bcuz majority are got free or subsidized via American aid to remain quite agisnt Israel as deal of 1.2 billion per year


Hi if they act on KSA advice for their defence hopefully LM will get additional contract to upgrade these f16 to some extent hopefully BLK 52 level Donald trump wins next time ( if he wins ) he might ask KSA to fund LM kind of industries 
Thank you


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## TOPGUN

Readerdefence said:


> Hi if they act on KSA advice for their defence hopefully LM will get additional contract to upgrade these f16 to some extent hopefully BLK 52 level Donald trump wins next time ( if he wins ) he might ask KSA to fund LM kind of industries
> Thank you



He won't win again that is for-sure lolz.

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## fatman17

Norinco GB-6 Glide sub-munitions despenser, it can fly upto 130kms. with variety of submunitions options, 
Destroying an enemy airfield! Or wipe out enemy armoured Columns from stand-off Range. it can spread sub munitions over a wide target area. [emoji6] #JF17 https://t.co/YaLxuyHztW

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## Nasr

Armchair said:


> They seem to have relatively straight forward options to expanding their fleet quite rapidly. PAF doesn't have the same support because of the F-16 / US debacle. Had PAF gotten some J-10s, they could easily boost numbers in an emergency from China.



I am more interested in knowing why exactly Pakistan Air Force has not opted for the J-10s? During Musharraf's era, there was growing interest in the aircraft. It cannot possibly be the engine, since the JF-17's powerplant is Russian, so that argument holds no weight at all.

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## Cookie Monster

fatman17 said:


> Norinco GB-6 Glide sub-munitions despenser, it can fly upto 130kms. with variety of submunitions options,
> Destroying an enemy airfield! Or wipe out enemy armoured Columns from stand-off Range. it can spread sub munitions over a wide target area. [emoji6] #JF17 https://t.co/YaLxuyHztW
> View attachment 645400


Is the GB6 analogous to the CBU105?

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Cookie Monster said:


> Is the GB6 analogous to the CBU105?


It won't offer the CBU-105's guided submunition capability.


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## AbsoluteEngineer

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It won't offer the CBU-105's guided submunition capability.



Does PAF has equivalent of BLU-114/B (Graphite Munition) with ability to knock out power grid? GB6 could offer a capability as a carrier to this kind of sub-munition with devastating impact on adversary's power grid.


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## Pakistani Fighter

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It won't offer the CBU-105's guided submunition capability.


Anything China or Turkey has analogous to CBU 105?


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## fatman17

"Don't Try This at Home Especially on Father's Day" 
The wonderful airmen of the Pakistan Air Force 6 Sqn, teaching children how to simulate a skydiving jump by jumping off the back of a Hercules C-130E onto a giant air cushion at The Royal International Air Tattoo 2016. https://t.co/6W9Wxe2vXt

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## Ahmet Pasha

Awwww so


fatman17 said:


> "Don't Try This at Home Especially on Father's Day"
> The wonderful airmen of the Pakistan Air Force 6 Sqn, teaching children how to simulate a skydiving jump by jumping off the back of a Hercules C-130E onto a giant air cushion at The Royal International Air Tattoo 2016. https://t.co/6W9Wxe2vXt
> View attachment 645621


cute!


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## Thorough Pro

That is why it is so important to have at least one or two common platforms with your biggest ally and that is why I am a big proponent of acquiring J10's instead of F-16's. The commonality of weapons between J10 and JF17 and in case of war we can easily loan 2/3 squadrons and use them in the war without any issues. 




MastanKhan said:


> HI,
> 
> What you are not telling the readers is that modern fighter aircraft are a different breed---.
> 
> If china gave us the J20 on the day of war or if the US gave us the F22---we would not be able to do diddley with them---because it takes years to get familiar with modern 21st century aircrafts---.

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## Trailer23



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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

Pakistani Fighter said:


> Anything China or Turkey has analogous to CBU 105?



There is Demet Cluster Bomb developed by Tubitak Sage, but you must have a big *** to use it.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/993818723466301441


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## nomi007

fatman17 said:


> "Don't Try This at Home Especially on Father's Day"
> The wonderful airmen of the Pakistan Air Force 6 Sqn, teaching children how to simulate a skydiving jump by jumping off the back of a Hercules C-130E onto a giant air cushion at The Royal International Air Tattoo 2016. https://t.co/6W9Wxe2vXt
> View attachment 645621


*اپنے بچوں کو دور سے نظارے*
*اور گوروں کے بچوں کو جھولے*

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## Ahmet Pasha

Le Pindi boys outside Girls college.


Trailer23 said:


>

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## Talon

Trailer23 said:


>


HFKRAW...Air Commodore Hamid Faraz Khan

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## Trailer23

@Horus @Dubious @AgNoStiC MuSliM @araz @airomerix @Arsalan @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @BHarwana @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Foxtrot Alpha @ghazi52 @Hodor @Irfan Baloch @Imran Khan @Jango @Knuckles @krash @LeGenD @Moonlight @Side-Winder @SQ8 @waz @Windjammer @dbc @Aamir Hussain

@Adam_Khan @Ahmet Pasha @Akh1112 @aliyusuf @ARMalik @Angry Easterling @assasiner @Blacklight @crankthatskunk @Cookie Monster @Counter-Errorist @Dalit @DESERT FIGHTER @Dil Pakistan @Falcon26 @Flight of falcon @FuturePAF @graphican @GriffinsRule @Gryphon @GumNaam @Haris Ali2140 @HRK @Hakikat ve Hikmet @HawkEye27 @I S I @Khanivore @khansaheeb @khanasifm @Liquidmetal @loanranger @Maxpane @Mirage Battle Commander @Microsoft @mingle @Mrc @mshan44 @Muhammad Omar @NA71 @Nasr @notorious_eagle @Pakhtoon yum @Pakistani Fighter @PAKISTANFOREVER @PakShaheen79 @PanzerKiel @Path-Finder @PDFChamp @PWFI @Rafi @Reichsmarschall @Riz @Safriz @Shane @Signalian @Starlord @Stealth @StormBreaker @The Accountant @TheTallGuy @Tank131 @Thorough Pro @TOPGUN @Tps43 @TsAr @Trango Towers @undercover JIX @Verve @ziaulislam @Zulfiqar 
My



hommies @PakSword @Super Falcon @Sabretooth @PradoTLC @khail007 @War Thunder @ZedZeeshan and @Khafee
@skybolt ​
Note: No PAF Pilot got into any trouble for this video - not that i'm aware of. And it ain't coming down on YouTube either 'cause its *MY Channel*.

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## Ahmet Pasha

If I were a fighter pilot I'd probably develop claustrophobia.

I think I'd prefer big birds or rotor craft.


Trailer23 said:


> @Horus @Dubious @AgNoStiC MuSliM @araz @airomerix @Arsalan @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @BHarwana @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Foxtrot Alpha @ghazi52 @Hodor @Irfan Baloch @Imran Khan @Jango @Knuckles @krash @LeGenD @Moonlight @Side-Winder @SQ8 @waz @Windjammer @dbc @Aamir Hussain
> 
> @Adam_Khan @Ahmet Pasha @Akh1112 @aliyusuf @ARMalik @Angry Easterling @assasiner @Blacklight @crankthatskunk @Cookie Monster @Counter-Errorist @Dalit @DESERT FIGHTER @Dil Pakistan @Falcon26 @Flight of falcon @FuturePAF @graphican @GriffinsRule @Gryphon @GumNaam @Haris Ali2140 @HRK @Hakikat ve Hikmet @HawkEye27 @I S I @Khanivore @khansaheeb @khanasifm @Liquidmetal @loanranger @Maxpane @Mirage Battle Commander @Microsoft @mingle @Mrc @mshan44 @Muhammad Omar @NA71 @Nasr @notorious_eagle @Pakhtoon yum @Pakistani Fighter @PAKISTANFOREVER @PakShaheen79 @PanzerKiel @Path-Finder @PDFChamp @PWFI @Rafi @Reichsmarschall @Riz @Safriz @Shane @Signalian @Starlord @Stealth @StormBreaker @The Accountant @TheTallGuy @Tank131 @Thorough Pro @TOPGUN @Tps43 @TsAr @Trango Towers @undercover JIX @Verve @ziaulislam @Zulfiqar
> My
> View attachment 646164
> hommies @PakSword @Super Falcon @Sabretooth @PradoTLC @khail007 @War Thunder @ZedZeeshan and @Khafee
> @skybolt ​
> Note: No PAF Pilot got into any trouble for this video - not that i'm aware of. And it ain't coming down on YouTube either 'cause its *MY Channel*.


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## Raider 21

Trailer23 said:


> @Horus @Dubious @AgNoStiC MuSliM @araz @airomerix @Arsalan @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @BHarwana @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Foxtrot Alpha @ghazi52 @Hodor @Irfan Baloch @Imran Khan @Jango @Knuckles @krash @LeGenD @Moonlight @Side-Winder @SQ8 @waz @Windjammer @dbc @Aamir Hussain
> 
> @Adam_Khan @Ahmet Pasha @Akh1112 @aliyusuf @ARMalik @Angry Easterling @assasiner @Blacklight @crankthatskunk @Cookie Monster @Counter-Errorist @Dalit @DESERT FIGHTER @Dil Pakistan @Falcon26 @Flight of falcon @FuturePAF @graphican @GriffinsRule @Gryphon @GumNaam @Haris Ali2140 @HRK @Hakikat ve Hikmet @HawkEye27 @I S I @Khanivore @khansaheeb @khanasifm @Liquidmetal @loanranger @Maxpane @Mirage Battle Commander @Microsoft @mingle @Mrc @mshan44 @Muhammad Omar @NA71 @Nasr @notorious_eagle @Pakhtoon yum @Pakistani Fighter @PAKISTANFOREVER @PakShaheen79 @PanzerKiel @Path-Finder @PDFChamp @PWFI @Rafi @Reichsmarschall @Riz @Safriz @Shane @Signalian @Starlord @Stealth @StormBreaker @The Accountant @TheTallGuy @Tank131 @Thorough Pro @TOPGUN @Tps43 @TsAr @Trango Towers @undercover JIX @Verve @ziaulislam @Zulfiqar
> My
> View attachment 646164
> hommies @PakSword @Super Falcon @Sabretooth @PradoTLC @khail007 @War Thunder @ZedZeeshan and @Khafee
> @skybolt ​
> Note: No PAF Pilot got into any trouble for this video - not that i'm aware of. And it ain't coming down on YouTube either 'cause its *MY Channel*.


This is beautiful. Sharing this with some RCAF guys

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## TOPGUN

Outstanding bro thanks so much for sharing !

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## aliyusuf

Trailer23 said:


> ....
> 
> Note: No PAF Pilot got into any trouble for this video - not that i'm aware of. And it ain't coming down on YouTube either 'cause its *MY Channel*.


That was quite nicely edited and put together.
Liked the soundtrack.
A great video sir jee.
Keep it up.

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## Blacklight

Trailer23 said:


> @Horus @Dubious @AgNoStiC MuSliM @araz @airomerix @Arsalan @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @BHarwana @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Foxtrot Alpha @ghazi52 @Hodor @Irfan Baloch @Imran Khan @Jango @Knuckles @krash @LeGenD @Moonlight @Side-Winder @SQ8 @waz @Windjammer @dbc @Aamir Hussain
> 
> @Adam_Khan @Ahmet Pasha @Akh1112 @aliyusuf @ARMalik @Angry Easterling @assasiner @Blacklight @crankthatskunk @Cookie Monster @Counter-Errorist @Dalit @DESERT FIGHTER @Dil Pakistan @Falcon26 @Flight of falcon @FuturePAF @graphican @GriffinsRule @Gryphon @GumNaam @Haris Ali2140 @HRK @Hakikat ve Hikmet @HawkEye27 @I S I @Khanivore @khansaheeb @khanasifm @Liquidmetal @loanranger @Maxpane @Mirage Battle Commander @Microsoft @mingle @Mrc @mshan44 @Muhammad Omar @NA71 @Nasr @notorious_eagle @Pakhtoon yum @Pakistani Fighter @PAKISTANFOREVER @PakShaheen79 @PanzerKiel @Path-Finder @PDFChamp @PWFI @Rafi @Reichsmarschall @Riz @Safriz @Shane @Signalian @Starlord @Stealth @StormBreaker @The Accountant @TheTallGuy @Tank131 @Thorough Pro @TOPGUN @Tps43 @TsAr @Trango Towers @undercover JIX @Verve @ziaulislam @Zulfiqar
> My
> View attachment 646164
> hommies @PakSword @Super Falcon @Sabretooth @PradoTLC @khail007 @War Thunder @ZedZeeshan and @Khafee
> @skybolt ​
> Note: No PAF Pilot got into any trouble for this video - not that i'm aware of. And it ain't coming down on YouTube either 'cause its *MY Channel*.


I must say, very professionally done! Very impressive.

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## Nomad40

Trailer23 said:


> @Horus @Dubious @AgNoStiC MuSliM @araz @airomerix @Arsalan @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @BHarwana @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Foxtrot Alpha @ghazi52 @Hodor @Irfan Baloch @Imran Khan @Jango @Knuckles @krash @LeGenD @Moonlight @Side-Winder @SQ8 @waz @Windjammer @dbc @Aamir Hussain
> 
> @Adam_Khan @Ahmet Pasha @Akh1112 @aliyusuf @ARMalik @Angry Easterling @assasiner @Blacklight @crankthatskunk @Cookie Monster @Counter-Errorist @Dalit @DESERT FIGHTER @Dil Pakistan @Falcon26 @Flight of falcon @FuturePAF @graphican @GriffinsRule @Gryphon @GumNaam @Haris Ali2140 @HRK @Hakikat ve Hikmet @HawkEye27 @I S I @Khanivore @khansaheeb @khanasifm @Liquidmetal @loanranger @Maxpane @Mirage Battle Commander @Microsoft @mingle @Mrc @mshan44 @Muhammad Omar @NA71 @Nasr @notorious_eagle @Pakhtoon yum @Pakistani Fighter @PAKISTANFOREVER @PakShaheen79 @PanzerKiel @Path-Finder @PDFChamp @PWFI @Rafi @Reichsmarschall @Riz @Safriz @Shane @Signalian @Starlord @Stealth @StormBreaker @The Accountant @TheTallGuy @Tank131 @Thorough Pro @TOPGUN @Tps43 @TsAr @Trango Towers @undercover JIX @Verve @ziaulislam @Zulfiqar
> My
> View attachment 646164
> hommies @PakSword @Super Falcon @Sabretooth @PradoTLC @khail007 @War Thunder @ZedZeeshan and @Khafee
> @skybolt ​
> Note: No PAF Pilot got into any trouble for this video - not that i'm aware of. And it ain't coming down on YouTube either 'cause its *MY Channel*.


Awesome as always

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## krash

Trailer23 said:


> @Horus @Dubious @AgNoStiC MuSliM @araz @airomerix @Arsalan @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @BHarwana @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Foxtrot Alpha @ghazi52 @Hodor @Irfan Baloch @Imran Khan @Jango @Knuckles @krash @LeGenD @Moonlight @Side-Winder @SQ8 @waz @Windjammer @dbc @Aamir Hussain
> 
> @Adam_Khan @Ahmet Pasha @Akh1112 @aliyusuf @ARMalik @Angry Easterling @assasiner @Blacklight @crankthatskunk @Cookie Monster @Counter-Errorist @Dalit @DESERT FIGHTER @Dil Pakistan @Falcon26 @Flight of falcon @FuturePAF @graphican @GriffinsRule @Gryphon @GumNaam @Haris Ali2140 @HRK @Hakikat ve Hikmet @HawkEye27 @I S I @Khanivore @khansaheeb @khanasifm @Liquidmetal @loanranger @Maxpane @Mirage Battle Commander @Microsoft @mingle @Mrc @mshan44 @Muhammad Omar @NA71 @Nasr @notorious_eagle @Pakhtoon yum @Pakistani Fighter @PAKISTANFOREVER @PakShaheen79 @PanzerKiel @Path-Finder @PDFChamp @PWFI @Rafi @Reichsmarschall @Riz @Safriz @Shane @Signalian @Starlord @Stealth @StormBreaker @The Accountant @TheTallGuy @Tank131 @Thorough Pro @TOPGUN @Tps43 @TsAr @Trango Towers @undercover JIX @Verve @ziaulislam @Zulfiqar
> My
> View attachment 646164
> hommies @PakSword @Super Falcon @Sabretooth @PradoTLC @khail007 @War Thunder @ZedZeeshan and @Khafee
> @skybolt ​
> Note: No PAF Pilot got into any trouble for this video - not that i'm aware of. And it ain't coming down on YouTube either 'cause its *MY Channel*.



M83's Outro never misses the mark. Nicely done.

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## TheTallGuy

Trailer23 said:


> @Horus @Dubious @AgNoStiC MuSliM @araz @airomerix @Arsalan @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @BHarwana @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Foxtrot Alpha @ghazi52 @Hodor @Irfan Baloch @Imran Khan @Jango @Knuckles @krash @LeGenD @Moonlight @Side-Winder @SQ8 @waz @Windjammer @dbc @Aamir Hussain
> 
> @Adam_Khan @Ahmet Pasha @Akh1112 @aliyusuf @ARMalik @Angry Easterling @assasiner @Blacklight @crankthatskunk @Cookie Monster @Counter-Errorist @Dalit @DESERT FIGHTER @Dil Pakistan @Falcon26 @Flight of falcon @FuturePAF @graphican @GriffinsRule @Gryphon @GumNaam @Haris Ali2140 @HRK @Hakikat ve Hikmet @HawkEye27 @I S I @Khanivore @khansaheeb @khanasifm @Liquidmetal @loanranger @Maxpane @Mirage Battle Commander @Microsoft @mingle @Mrc @mshan44 @Muhammad Omar @NA71 @Nasr @notorious_eagle @Pakhtoon yum @Pakistani Fighter @PAKISTANFOREVER @PakShaheen79 @PanzerKiel @Path-Finder @PDFChamp @PWFI @Rafi @Reichsmarschall @Riz @Safriz @Shane @Signalian @Starlord @Stealth @StormBreaker @The Accountant @TheTallGuy @Tank131 @Thorough Pro @TOPGUN @Tps43 @TsAr @Trango Towers @undercover JIX @Verve @ziaulislam @Zulfiqar
> My
> View attachment 646164
> hommies @PakSword @Super Falcon @Sabretooth @PradoTLC @khail007 @War Thunder @ZedZeeshan and @Khafee
> @skybolt ​
> Note: No PAF Pilot got into any trouble for this video - not that i'm aware of. And it ain't coming down on YouTube either 'cause its *MY Channel*.



Well done!


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## fatman17

JF-17 BLOCK 3 UPDATE: 

Pakistan Air Force has selected the Russian Klimov RD-93MA engine for the JF-17 Block 3 aircraft instead of the Chinese WS-13 engine. 

#Pakistan #PakistanAirForce #PAF #JF17 #Klimov #RD93MA #AirForce https://t.co/5eAISO9SgT

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## Cookie Monster

fatman17 said:


> JF-17 BLOCK 3 UPDATE:
> 
> Pakistan Air Force has selected the Russian Klimov RD-93MA engine for the JF-17 Block 3 aircraft instead of the Chinese WS-13 engine.
> 
> #Pakistan #PakistanAirForce #PAF #JF17 #Klimov #RD93MA #AirForce https://t.co/5eAISO9SgT
> View attachment 646562


Assuming RD93MA has FADEC?

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## aliyusuf

fatman17 said:


> JF-17 BLOCK 3 UPDATE:
> 
> Pakistan Air Force has selected the Russian Klimov RD-93MA engine for the JF-17 Block 3 aircraft instead of the Chinese WS-13 engine.
> 
> #Pakistan #PakistanAirForce #PAF #JF17 #Klimov #RD93MA #AirForce https://t.co/5eAISO9SgT
> View attachment 646562


Really good news if true, but, how reliable is the source?

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## PakFactor

fatman17 said:


> JF-17 BLOCK 3 UPDATE:
> 
> Pakistan Air Force has selected the Russian Klimov RD-93MA engine for the JF-17 Block 3 aircraft instead of the Chinese WS-13 engine.
> 
> #Pakistan #PakistanAirForce #PAF #JF17 #Klimov #RD93MA #AirForce https://t.co/5eAISO9SgT
> View attachment 646562



The Chinese engine wasn’t good enough? We can’t keep relying on the Russians

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## rAli

@Trailer23 

Double Thumbs up!! 

I have subscribed to your channel. If you setup a gofundme I will surely contribute.


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## mingle

aliyusuf said:


> Really good news if true, but, how reliable is the source?


I feel blk 3 will be a new breed in old skin

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## fatman17

So what is your suggestion


PakFactor said:


> The Chinese engine wasn’t good enough? We can’t keep relying on the Russians


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## Pakistan Ka Beta

fatman17 said:


> Pakistan Air Force has selected the Russian *Klimov* *RD-93MA* engine for the JF-17 Block 3


Even *better* than block 1 and 2 engine ??? or *same *???


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## Pakistani Fighter

fatman17 said:


> JF-17 BLOCK 3 UPDATE:
> 
> Pakistan Air Force has selected the Russian Klimov RD-93MA engine for the JF-17 Block 3 aircraft instead of the Chinese WS-13 engine.
> 
> #Pakistan #PakistanAirForce #PAF #JF17 #Klimov #RD93MA #AirForce https://t.co/5eAISO9SgT
> View attachment 646562


@airomerix @Deino


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## Deino

Pakistani Fighter said:


> @airomerix @Deino




IMO a completely unreliable source ... I won't even call it a source.

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## volatile

Pakistan Ka Beta said:


> Even *better* than block 1 and 2 engine ??? or *same *???


*The RD-93MA is a more powerful variant of the RD-93 engine powering the FC-1/JF-17 fighter aircraft. The RD-93MA develops 9,300kg of thrust and is intended to power improved FC-1/JF-17 jets.*
*
http://www.deagel.com/Propulsion-Systems/RD-93MA_a000909005.aspx*







so already it is being made operational in China and Pakistan (test beds)

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## SD 10

volatile said:


> *The RD-93MA is a more powerful variant of the RD-93 engine powering the FC-1/JF-17 fighter aircraft. The RD-93MA develops 9,300kg of thrust and is intended to power improved FC-1/JF-17 jets.
> 
> http://www.deagel.com/Propulsion-Systems/RD-93MA_a000909005.aspx*
> 
> View attachment 647104
> 
> 
> so already it is being made operational in China and Pakistan (test beds)


will it affect speed ? like max speed is 1.8 mach now, will it increase it?

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## Armchair

SD 10 said:


> will it affect speed ? like max speed is 1.8 mach now, will it increase it?



Very possible although operationally this increase in top speed will not be meaningful.

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## Pakistan Ka Beta

volatile said:


> *The RD-93MA is a more powerful variant of the RD-93 engine powering the FC-1/JF-17 fighter aircraft. The RD-93MA develops 9,300kg of thrust and is intended to power improved FC-1/JF-17 jets.
> 
> http://www.deagel.com/Propulsion-Systems/RD-93MA_a000909005.aspx*
> 
> View attachment 647104
> 
> 
> so already it is being made operational in China and Pakistan (test beds)


Thank you

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## volatile

SD 10 said:


> will it affect speed ? like max speed is 1.8 mach now, will it increase it?


https://quwa.org/2016/04/22/pakistan-might-consider-klimov-rd-33mk-jf-17/
More reliable ,turn over time increased to 4000 Hrs , Less maintenance , Thrust to weight ratio improvement for 

the JF-17 Block-III could potentially be equipped with a higher thrust turbofan, thus enabling the fighter to boast a higher thrust-to-weight ratio (TWR), especially if a higher proportion of composite materials are incorporated into the airframe. Besides improving the JF-17’s basic performance benchmarks (e.g. speed), an uprated engine could offer the PAF greater flexibility in arming the JF-17 for payload intensive roles, such as air-to-ground and sea missions.

More of these parameters ,speed is irrelevant



SD 10 said:


> will it affect speed ? like max speed is 1.8 mach now, will it increase it?


https://quwa.org/2016/04/22/pakistan-might-consider-klimov-rd-33mk-jf-17/
More reliable ,turn over time increased to 4000 Hrs , Less maintenance , Thrust to weight ratio improvement for 

the JF-17 Block-III could potentially be equipped with a higher thrust turbofan, thus enabling the fighter to boast a higher thrust-to-weight ratio (TWR), especially if a higher proportion of composite materials are incorporated into the airframe. Besides improving the JF-17’s basic performance benchmarks (e.g. speed), an uprated engine could offer the PAF greater flexibility in arming the JF-17 for payload intensive roles, such as air-to-ground and sea missions.

More of these parameters ,speed is irrelevant

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## The Accountant

SD 10 said:


> will it affect speed ? like max speed is 1.8 mach now, will it increase it?


No it will not the speed is limited not because of engines but coz of DSI. Infact speed should ideally remain limited to 1.6. Kindly note that F35 speed is also limited to 1.6 mach. In modern warfare lower speeds are being accounted for by BVR.

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## Aadi_1591

Tair-Lahoti said:


> Is it new for PAC?
> 
> F-16 Fighting Falcon of PAF repaired by PAC Kamra after it got damaged during a bombing mission on terrorist hideouts.
> 
> SOURCE: PakistanStrategicForum
> View attachment 644379


how it got damaged?


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## Clairvoyant

volatile said:


> https://quwa.org/2016/04/22/pakistan-might-consider-klimov-rd-33mk-jf-17/
> More reliable ,turn over time increased to 4000 Hrs , Less maintenance , Thrust to weight ratio improvement for
> 
> the JF-17 Block-III could potentially be equipped with a higher thrust turbofan, thus enabling the fighter to boast a higher thrust-to-weight ratio (TWR), especially if a higher proportion of composite materials are incorporated into the airframe. Besides improving the JF-17’s basic performance benchmarks (e.g. speed), an uprated engine could offer the PAF greater flexibility in arming the JF-17 for payload intensive roles, such as air-to-ground and sea missions.
> 
> More of these parameters ,speed is irrelevant
> 
> 
> https://quwa.org/2016/04/22/pakistan-might-consider-klimov-rd-33mk-jf-17/
> More reliable ,turn over time increased to 4000 Hrs , Less maintenance , Thrust to weight ratio improvement for
> 
> the JF-17 Block-III could potentially be equipped with a higher thrust turbofan, thus enabling the fighter to boast a higher thrust-to-weight ratio (TWR), especially if a higher proportion of composite materials are incorporated into the airframe. Besides improving the JF-17’s basic performance benchmarks (e.g. speed), an uprated engine could offer the PAF greater flexibility in arming the JF-17 for payload intensive roles, such as air-to-ground and sea missions.
> 
> More of these parameters ,speed is irrelevant




There is a difference between confirmed versus potentially possible dear,presently there is no publically available proof that RD.93MA has been or will be used.

For the time being it remains just another rumour.

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## volatile

Eternally_Aflame said:


> There is a difference between confirmed versus potentially possible dear,presently there is no publically available proof that RD.93MA has been or will be used.
> 
> For the time being it remains just another rumour.


May be or May be not China uses multiple engines on different platform WS13 is used on JF17 as well also RD93 in upcoming J31 as well similarly possibility of acquiring same engine with upgrade make more sense when you already have RD93 service centre in Paksitan 
*
PAC even plans to establish a full-scale servicing and overhaul facility for the Klimov/Sarkisov RD-93 engine in Kamra, also known as Aviation City, and the center of aircraft manufacturing in Pakistan.*
*
Instead, PAC will expand its work with the Russian engine manufacturer Klimov to set up a comprehensive engine overhaul and servicing facility in Kamra.

Quwa wrote that an overhaul facility (similar to the ATAR 09C facility in the Mirage Rebuild Factory) would be a possibility a few days ago (http://quwa.org/?p=1813).
*
These are few developments which gives you hint what is going to happen ,e.g my hunch is all platforms having RD93 or derivatives will be in serious consideration as infrastructure is built so much cheaper acquisition cost not like IAF where 6/7 platforms having 6/7 Engine types .so model works .

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## jupiter2007

volatile said:


> May be or May be not China uses multiple engines on different platform WS13 is used on JF17 as well also RD93 in upcoming J31 as well similarly possibility of acquiring same engine with upgrade make more sense when you already have RD93 service centre in Paksitan
> *
> PAC even plans to establish a full-scale servicing and overhaul facility for the Klimov/Sarkisov RD-93 engine in Kamra, also known as Aviation City, and the center of aircraft manufacturing in Pakistan.
> 
> Instead, PAC will expand its work with the Russian engine manufacturer Klimov to set up a comprehensive engine overhaul and servicing facility in Kamra.
> 
> Quwa wrote that an overhaul facility (similar to the ATAR 09C facility in the Mirage Rebuild Factory) would be a possibility a few days ago (http://quwa.org/?p=1813).
> *
> These are few developments which gives you hint what is going to happen ,e.g my hunch is all platforms having RD93 or derivatives will be in serious consideration as infrastructure is built so much cheaper acquisition cost not like IAF where 6/7 platforms having 6/7 Engine types .so model works .



Beside JF-17, both J-31 and MiG-35 uses RD-93 or derivatives. 
Didn’t Russia offer MiG-35 to Pakistan?


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## volatile

jupiter2007 said:


> Beside JF-17, both J-31 and MiG-35 uses RD-93 or derivatives.
> Didn’t Russia offer MiG-35 to Pakistan?


Mig 35 is an excellent platform but it came too late for Pakistan may be in 2010 it make sense ,J31 is serious candidate as China is going to market it like F35 and Project Azm and Turkey will be looking into it as both Air forces need to retire large fleets of F16 .IMO delta should replace delta


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## ACE OF THE AIR

volatile said:


> Mig 35 is an excellent platform but it came too late for Pakistan may be in 2010 it make sense ,J31 is serious candidate as China is going to market it like F35 and Project Azm and Turkey will be looking into it as both Air forces need to retire large fleets of F16 .IMO delta should replace delta


PAF needs to replace F-16's in 2030-35 by this time TFX and AZM both would be available. As far as Turkish Air Force is concerned F-16 are to be replaced by TFX. 

Turks wanted to replace their highly modified F-4s by F-35 but they are not going to come. 

IMO
If PAF manages to manufacture a single engine fifth generation aircraft similar in specifications of F-35 under AZM by 2026 then Turkey would be the first country ordering them to replace their F-4's. This Aircraft could also replace Mirage iii and v in PAF. Unfortunately non of the next generation aircraft are delta winged. PAF also needs to replace F-7PG in the next 7 to 10 years for which PAF can acquire the Hurjet which can serve both as LIFT and Interceptor with BVR missiles.

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## volatile

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> PAF needs to replace F-16's in 2030-35 by this time TFX and AZM both would be available. As far as Turkish Air Force is concerned F-16 are to be replaced by TFX.
> 
> Turks wanted to replace their highly modified F-4s by F-35 but they are not going to come.
> 
> IMO
> If PAF manages to manufacture a single engine fifth generation aircraft similar in specifications of F-35 under AZM by 2026 then Turkey would be the first country ordering them to replace their F-4's. This Aircraft could also replace Mirage iii and v in PAF. Unfortunately non of the next generation aircraft are delta winged. PAF also needs to replace F-7PG in the next 7 to 10 years for which PAF can acquire the Hurjet which can serve both as LIFT and Interceptor with BVR missiles.


Dear aiming one 5th generation and building one is quite different ,Project Azm will continue to work on a single engine configuration F16 will start to retire by 2025 specially the ones bought in 80s bcas they will be 45 years old .Unless uncle sam gives new life along with offered V70 version F16`s will be difficult to sustain ,J31 will be ready by that time and starts to replace F16 (This is going to be off the shelf) .Building 5th generation aeroplane requires certain sensor fusion ,engines ,materials and many other things ,We are producing JF17 with alloys of Aluminium ,composites are not there ,Please emotions a side Both Turkey and Pakistan dont have expertise and Turks seems to be going to Russian route

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## GriffinsRule

volatile said:


> Dear aiming one 5th generation and building one is quite different ,Project Azm will continue to work on a single engine configuration F16 will start to retire by 2025 specially the ones bought in 80s bcas they will be 45 years old .Unless uncle sam gives new life along with offered V70 version F16`s will be difficult to sustain ,J31 will be ready by that time and starts to replace F16 (This is going to be off the shelf) .Building 5th generation aeroplane requires certain sensor fusion ,engines ,materials and many other things ,We are producing JF17 with alloys of Aluminium ,composites are not there ,Please emotions a side Both Turkey and Pakistan dont have expertise and Turks seems to be going to Russian route


F-16s are not going anywhere before 2040. Age in number of years is meaningless. Flying hours and airframe life is what matters along with technological obsolescence.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

GriffinsRule said:


> F-16s are not going anywhere before 2040. Age in number of years is meaningless. Flying hours and airframe life is what matters along with technological obsolescence.


Considering the current situation PAF would require an other MLU if they need to take these aircraft to 2040 as they had previously planned. There is a possibility PAF might get some more Block 50/52 then that 2040 is possible. However if IAF can somehow gain time and delay the China -India war and pressurise USA for F35 then F-16's need to be replaced way earlier. PAF would have to think about this possibility and also look at their options. SU-57 / J20. Even the J31 would be removed from this choice. AZM being an in house project would also be stopped in favor of of the shelf procurement.

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## jupiter2007

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Considering the current situation PAF would require an other MLU if they need to take these aircraft to 2040 as they had previously planned. There is a possibility PAF might get some more Block 50/52 then that 2040 is possible. However if IAF can somehow gain time and delay the China -India war and pressurise USA for F35 then F-16's need to be replaced way earlier. PAF would have to think about this possibility and also look at their options. SU-57 / J20. Even the J31 would be removed from this choice. AZM being an in house project would also be stopped in favor of of the shelf procurement.



JF-17 was to create as a light weight fighter to replace A-5C, F-7s and older mirage. We don’t have medium weight fighter to go against SU-30 and Rafale. We have been upgrading 40 years old mirage and trying get more F-16s while slowly building JF-17. PAF long term planning is only limited to 5 years that’s why they are stuck with Mirage and F-16s. project AZM is unknown....no official or unofficial information is available in public domain. only wishful thinking and fake stories on YouTube.
I can post 10 fake news and articles published in last 10 years regarding PAF fighter acquisition...from F-16s to SU-30 and from Typhoon to mig-35.

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## volatile

GriffinsRule said:


> F-16s are not going anywhere before 2040. Age in number of years is meaningless. Flying hours and airframe life is what matters along with technological obsolescence.


F16s will start to replace not on my wish list or yours but according to PAF own replacement strategy 


*PAKISTAN TO GET STEALTH FIGHTER AIRCRAFT FROM CHINA*
Issue: 2 / 2015By Air Marshal B.K. Pandey (Retd)Photo(s): By Xinhuanet





NEWS
Pakistani officials have reportedly begun talks with their Chinese counterparts to buy the FC-31 stealth fighter jet, according to a news report. Pakistani Defence Production Minister Rana Tanveer Hussain confirmed the discussions were underway, according to an article published by Asia News International, a Delhi-based news agency. The Pakistani Air Force (PAF) is reportedly considering buying between 30 and 40 of the Chinese stealth combat aircraft to replace the F-16 fighter jets produced by Lockheed Martin Corporation of the US. The FC-31 is designed to fly close air support, air interdiction and other missions. However, the PAF is more likely to employ conventional tactical aircraft rather than stealth aircraft in actual missions to support Pakistani ground forces.

http://www.sps-aviation.com/story/?id=1617


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## GriffinsRule

volatile said:


> F16s will start to replace not on my wish list or yours but according to PAF own replacement strategy
> 
> 
> *PAKISTAN TO GET STEALTH FIGHTER AIRCRAFT FROM CHINA*
> Issue: 2 / 2015By Air Marshal B.K. Pandey (Retd)Photo(s): By Xinhuanet
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NEWS
> Pakistani officials have reportedly begun talks with their Chinese counterparts to buy the FC-31 stealth fighter jet, according to a news report. Pakistani Defence Production Minister Rana Tanveer Hussain confirmed the discussions were underway, according to an article published by Asia News International, a Delhi-based news agency. The Pakistani Air Force (PAF) is reportedly considering buying between 30 and 40 of the Chinese stealth combat aircraft to replace the F-16 fighter jets produced by Lockheed Martin Corporation of the US. The FC-31 is designed to fly close air support, air interdiction and other missions. However, the PAF is more likely to employ conventional tactical aircraft rather than stealth aircraft in actual missions to support Pakistani ground forces.
> 
> http://www.sps-aviation.com/story/?id=1617


Wait, India is a source of PAF strategy now for you?


----------



## ACE OF THE AIR

jupiter2007 said:


> JF-17 was to create as a light weight fighter to replace A-5C, F-7s and older mirage.


Sir, producing an aircraft is not child play. PAF was embarking on a journey that would produce an aircraft for the first time which needed to be equivalent to US 3rd generation F-16 and modified by high end weapons to bring it
at par with any 4th generation aircraft. Limitations that PAF faced were financial, technical and technological hence it was decided that the aircraft needed to be designed as a light weight aircraft which would be later modified and upgraded to medium weight. As we all know PAF was on the same path as F-16 and SAAB Grippen were developed, PAF was handicapped because of technical issues in making an aircraft whereas USA and Sweden were making aircraft from the very first piston aircraft.

A-5 were designed as bombers but PAF had later upgraded them to multi-role. Hence their role had finished internationally with the introduction of multi-role aircraft like F-15, F-16, F-18, EFT, Grippen and Mirage 2000.
F-7 were interceptors hence still capable whereas Mirages were still very capable aircraft hence could be upgraded to a higher generation with minimum cost. This is the very reason still Mirages can be bought and upgraded.



jupiter2007 said:


> We don’t have medium weight fighter to go against SU-30 and Rafale.


First of all one needs to understand what is the difference between light weight and medium weight fighter?
Aircraft are classified on these principles.
1) Type
2) Role
3) Weight

1) Type of aircraft
Trainer, Fighter, Bomber and Transport.

2) Role
Air Supremacy, Close Air Support, Ground attack. If an aircraft can do all these then it is called Multi-role.

3) Weight
Light, Medium and Heavy. Aircraft are certified on their Maximum performances in ISA conditions. Here maximum weight = empty weight + payload + fuel.
Empty weight includes everything except weapons and fuel.

Capability of an aircraft to outperform that of an adversary does not need to be classified in the same weight category because that would depend on the role being performed at that particular time. It is possible that a light weight aircraft in air to air out perform a medium or heavy weight aircraft if it is equipped with superior avionics and weapons as it would give light aircraft added advantage due to its smaller foot print.



jupiter2007 said:


> We have been upgrading 40 years old mirage and trying get more F-16s while slowly building JF-17


Wars have multiple fronts which also include economics, Mirages and f-16 have become cost effective against their adversaries. Hence if 2 F-16 are lost to shoot down 1 Rafale still the financial loss would remain considerably lower than the adversary.



jupiter2007 said:


> PAF long term planning is only limited to 5 years that’s why they are stuck with Mirage and F-16s.


Pakistani as a nation are only good at crisis management as we tend to live our lives on day to day basis.



jupiter2007 said:


> project AZM is unknown....no official or unofficial information is available in public domain. only wishful thinking and fake stories on YouTube.


This was one of the reason in my earlier post had mentioned that this project could to shelved like other military projects that were highly classified.



jupiter2007 said:


> I can post 10 fake news and articles published in last 10 years regarding PAF fighter acquisition...from F-16s to SU-30 and from Typhoon to mig-35.


When one does not have a sound direction and clarity of approach then this is bound to happen.

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## Trailer23




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## ghazi52



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## volatile

why you say like this ?

why you say like this ?


GriffinsRule said:


> Wait, India is a source of PAF strategy now for you?


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## GriffinsRule

volatile said:


> why you say like this ?
> 
> why you say like this ?



You linked an Indian website's article authored by an ex Indian military buy which quotes "according to an article published by Asia News International, a Delhi-based news agency", sourcing another Indian source. 
That is what my remark was about

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## Armchair

I think the F-16s, particularly the older ones are pretty heavily used. With current levels of constant high alert against the Indian border, I doubt airframe life will remain for a good chunk of them by 2030. Already by 2025 Pak will begin to have problems. 

The airframe is not a simple aluminum alloy frame like the Mirages. There is extensive composite use and this makes it very difficult to keep them operational beyond a certain life span. If supply of parts runs dry, problems will be multiplied. 

Even USAF is having very similar problems maintaining their F-15s and F-16s already and are being forced to procure new F-15s. Apparently cheaper and considerably less hassle than maintaining older F-15Cs. 

Then there is replacement from accidents - 10 already lost. All aircraft don't age equally so you will have lemons to deal with. You will have problem aircraft that will need replacement by 2025. 

There is one other option - lowering airframe hours by introducing a suitable LIFT. Perhaps that is what Pak is getting from Italy.

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## Yasser76

Armchair said:


> I think the F-16s, particularly the older ones are pretty heavily used. With current levels of constant high alert against the Indian border, I doubt airframe life will remain for a good chunk of them by 2030. Already by 2025 Pak will begin to have problems.
> 
> The airframe is not a simple aluminum alloy frame like the Mirages. There is extensive composite use and this makes it very difficult to keep them operational beyond a certain life span. If supply of parts runs dry, problems will be multiplied.
> 
> Even USAF is having very similar problems maintaining their F-15s and F-16s already and are being forced to procure new F-15s. Apparently cheaper and considerably less hassle than maintaining older F-15Cs.
> 
> Then there is replacement from accidents - 10 already lost. All aircraft don't age equally so you will have lemons to deal with. You will have problem aircraft that will need replacement by 2025.
> 
> There is one other option - lowering airframe hours by introducing a suitable LIFT. Perhaps that is what Pak is getting from Italy.



These F-16s went through Falcon Up and Falcon Star upgrade only 10 years ago so they could have another 20 years of life.


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## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/Chengdu-F-7P/2317

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## blain2

Armchair said:


> I think the F-16s, particularly the older ones are pretty heavily used. With current levels of constant high alert against the Indian border, I doubt airframe life will remain for a good chunk of them by 2030. Already by 2025 Pak will begin to have problems.
> 
> The airframe is not a simple aluminum alloy frame like the Mirages. There is extensive composite use and this makes it very difficult to keep them operational beyond a certain life span. If supply of parts runs dry, problems will be multiplied.
> 
> Even USAF is having very similar problems maintaining their F-15s and F-16s already and are being forced to procure new F-15s. Apparently cheaper and considerably less hassle than maintaining older F-15Cs.
> 
> Then there is replacement from accidents - 10 already lost. All aircraft don't age equally so you will have lemons to deal with. You will have problem aircraft that will need replacement by 2025.
> 
> There is one other option - lowering airframe hours by introducing a suitable LIFT. Perhaps that is what Pak is getting from Italy.



All PAF F-16s have gone through FALCON UP / STAR upgrade which has increased airframe life to 8000 hours. I don't anticipate the Air Force to have to face such issues for at least a decade plus.

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## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/JF-17-Thunder/2755

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## litman

Armchair said:


> I think the F-16s, particularly the older ones are pretty heavily used. With current levels of constant high alert against the Indian border, I doubt airframe life will remain for a good chunk of them by 2030. Already by 2025 Pak will begin to have problems.
> 
> The airframe is not a simple aluminum alloy frame like the Mirages. There is extensive composite use and this makes it very difficult to keep them operational beyond a certain life span. If supply of parts runs dry, problems will be multiplied.
> 
> Even USAF is having very similar problems maintaining their F-15s and F-16s already and are being forced to procure new F-15s. Apparently cheaper and considerably less hassle than maintaining older F-15Cs.
> 
> Then there is replacement from accidents - 10 already lost. All aircraft don't age equally so you will have lemons to deal with. You will have problem aircraft that will need replacement by 2025.
> 
> There is one other option - lowering airframe hours by introducing a suitable LIFT. Perhaps that is what Pak is getting from Italy.


as per the recent intervew of kaiser tufail pakistani F-16s after upgradation can fly for decades to come. however pakistan will need a better fifth gen jet in near future.




watch from 09:35

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## Trailer23

This video is clearly old, as you may notice no one is wearing face masks. My guess, *IDEAS 2018*.

For some odd reason, Samaa FM decided to upload it last week.

Don't really know much about the K-8, but wondering..., what the hell is a *Aim-9P* at 02:35?!!

Jets covered: K-8 & JF-17.






@denel ​@araz @airomerix @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Hodor @Knuckles @Adam_Khan @Akh1112 @Blacklight @Falcon26 @GriffinsRule @HRK @HawkEye27 @khanasifm @Mirage Battle Commander @mingle @NA71 @Pakistani Fighter @PanzerKiel @Path-Finder @Signalian @Stealth @TheTallGuy @Tps43 @ziaulislam @PradoTLC @khail007

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## Akh1112

Trailer23 said:


> This video is clearly old, as you may notice no one is wearing face masks. My guess, *IDEAS 2018*.
> 
> For some odd reason, Samaa FM decided to upload it last week.
> 
> Don't really know much about the K-8, but wondering..., what the hell is a *Aim-9P* at 02:35?!!
> 
> Jets covered: K-8 & JF-17.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @denel ​@araz @airomerix @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Hodor @Knuckles @Adam_Khan @Akh1112 @Blacklight @Falcon26 @GriffinsRule @HRK @HawkEye27 @khanasifm @Mirage Battle Commander @mingle @NA71 @Pakistani Fighter @PanzerKiel @Path-Finder @Signalian @Stealth @TheTallGuy @Tps43 @ziaulislam @PradoTLC @khail007




Yep, Chinese aircraft can carry western munitions, atleast stuff that doesnt rely on external guidance. Western IR AAMs have been carried by Chinese PAF platforms for decades

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## blain2

Trailer23 said:


> This video is clearly old, as you may notice no one is wearing face masks. My guess, *IDEAS 2018*.
> 
> For some odd reason, Samaa FM decided to upload it last week.
> 
> Don't really know much about the K-8, but wondering..., what the hell is a *Aim-9P* at 02:35?!!
> 
> Jets covered: K-8 & JF-17.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @denel ​@araz @airomerix @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Hodor @Knuckles @Adam_Khan @Akh1112 @Blacklight @Falcon26 @GriffinsRule @HRK @HawkEye27 @khanasifm @Mirage Battle Commander @mingle @NA71 @Pakistani Fighter @PanzerKiel @Path-Finder @Signalian @Stealth @TheTallGuy @Tps43 @ziaulislam @PradoTLC @khail007



AIM-9Ps were specifically integrated by the PAF with the Shenyang F-6s in the 70s. They have the same wiring and systems integration on the K-8's FCR. By default that is not the case. PAF also ensured the same could be done with JF-17's weapons and avionics bus.

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## fatman17

And before my Pakistani followers ask...@LockheedMartin did not know of any proposed F-16V upgrade to the #PakAF.


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## fatman17

Alan Warnes


fatman17 said:


> And before my Pakistani followers ask...@LockheedMartin did not know of any proposed F-16V upgrade to the #PakAF.

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## fatman17

JF17B at AVIC

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## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/Lockheed-F-104B-Starfighter/965

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## ghazi52

*Pakistan Govt promotes Air Officers to Air Marshal, Air Vice Marshal ranks*

July 10, 2020

The Government of Pakistan has promoted Air Vice Marshal Aamir Masood to the rank of Air Marshal; while, 10 Air Commodores have been promoted to the rank of Air Vice Marshal. The promoted Air Officers from GD(P) branch include:-

1. Air Vice Marshal Amir Rashid

2. Air Vice Marshal S Fauad Masud Hatmi

3. Air Vice Marshal M Jamal Arshad

4. Air Vice Marshal Zaffar Aslam

5. Air Vice Marshal M Sarfraz

6. Air Vice Marshal Kazim Hammad

7. Air Vice Marshal Shakil Ghazanfar


*Whereas promoted Air Officers from the Engineering branch are:-*

1. Air Vice Marshal Irfan Zaheer

2. Air Vice Marshal Asif Maqsood

3. Air Vice Marshal Amir M Hayat.

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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52

*BRISTOL TYPE 170 FREIGHTER*

*(1950-1966)*
The Bristol Type 170 Freighter was a British twin-engine aircraft designed and built by the Bristol Aeroplane Company as both a freighter and airliner, although its best known use is as an air ferry to carry cars and their passengers over relatively short distances.

The Bristol Type 170 was designed originally as a rugged, heavy duty transport to operate from unimproved airstrips. The Freighter is a somewhat bulbous and cumbersome-looking aircraft. The square sectioned fuselage was designed to be clear of internal obstructions. The flight deck was high in the fuselage nose, accessed via a ladder. The cockpit sits atop the forward fuselage with two large clam shell doors at the nose.

Purchased in early 1950s by Pakistan Air Force, 81 were delivered.Transport and communications Freighters of No.12 VIP Squadron were painted silver with a blue fuselage line and green propeller spinners; No.6 Squadron aircraft were painted with camouflage patterns and red spinners; the Transport Conversion Squadron aircraft had brown spinners.

Phased out in 1966 and replaced with C-130 aircraft.

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## air marshal

Two Egyptian C-130H Hercules visited Chaklala today

https://falcons.pk/photo/Lockheed-Martin-C-130H-Hercules/2820







https://falcons.pk/photo/Lockheed-Martin-C-130H-Hercules/2821

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## fatman17

Promoted

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## fatman17

History of PAF’s role in counterinsurgency operations

Air Cdre (Retd) Jamal Hussain believes, tracing and accurately recording the history of PAF’s role in counterinsurgency operations is essential not only for posterity but also to ensure that many valuable lessons learnt from some of the recent campaigns are not lost, past mistakes are not repeated, and the service is better prepared for future operations.

Air Cdre Jamal Hussain- July 11, 2020

PAF counterinsurgency


Although not explicitly raised for counterinsurgency operations, Pakistan Air Force since its very inception has been called upon to undertake such missions. While at the beginning of the insurgency, the threat may have been mere pinpricks, since the beginning of the current century it has assumed alarmingly dangerous proportions, challenging the very writ of the state.

PAF’s ability to conduct limited counterinsurgency operations was inbuilt in its force structure but could at best be described as a ‘dumbed down’ version of an operational campaign against a traditional adversary. For as long as the service was not called upon to undertake a serious insurgency campaign, it was not a cause for concern.

However, as the threat of insurgency grew in the country’s Tribal Belts, PAF has been repeatedly tasked to conduct major COIN operations against an adversary exploiting the 4GW technique. Many serious shortcomings soon became apparent. It was realised that counterinsurgency operations require a different set of calculus than the ones needed against a conventional foe.

New strategies were needed, and new capabilities had to be developed for this new form of warfare. Tracing and accurately recording the history of PAF’s role in counterinsurgency operations is, therefore, essential not only for posterity but also to ensure that many valuable lessons learnt from some of the recent campaigns are not lost, past mistakes are not repeated, and the service is better prepared for future operations.

PAF’s Baptism of Fire in Counterinsurgency Operations

The insurgency in Waziristan by the legendary Faqir of Ipi (nee Mirza Ali Khan) against the British rule in India had erupted in 1937. Two Royal Air Force (RAF) squadrons operating from Risalpur and Kohat were employed in the counterinsurgency role to quell the rebellion. Air actions against the legendary Faqir proved ineffective, and as the insurgency lingered on, RAF squadrons were reinforced by Royal Indian Air Force (RIAF) units operating from Miranshah.

Neither side could gain a decisive victory while the stalemate lingered on. RAF and RIAF squadrons continued to operate in ‘watch and ward’ duties in Waziristan year after year until, in 1947, when it was handed over to the nascent Royal Pakistan Air Force (RPAF).

On August 15 1947, just a day after the new state of Pakistan had come into existence in the Indian subcontinent, RPAF undertook its first operational assignment in Waziristan. Two Tempest squadrons from Peshawar took over the ‘watch and ward’ role from the British by deploying small detachments in rotation at Miranshah.

When the USA decided to invade Afghanistan in October 2001, following the 9/11 attack on its soil, Pakistan was sucked into somebody else’s long-drawn war which it could ill afford

From December 17 1947, RPAF became a part of GHQ’s ‘Operation Curzon’ aimed at extraditing the Pakistan Army troops from Razmak in Waziristan. While transport support for airlifting of troops and freight was provided by two Dakotas of No. 6 RPAF squadron and Tempest fighter bombers of 5 and 9 squadrons flew 47 sorties to ensure the marauding tribesmen did not interfere with the evacuation process.

The RPAF air operations continued till June 1949, and in total the service flew 139 sorties dropping 72 bombs, 108 rockets and 4600 rounds of 20 mm on the rebels. After 1949, the rebellion by the Faqir declined appreciably although he never surrendered or was captured. On November 4 1954, the surrender of a key rebel leader and a notorious outlaw Meher Dil in effect brought the Waziristan insurrection to an end.

While the Pakistan Army and the RPAF had successfully contained the Faqir of Ipi led insurgency, the watch and ward duties continued. Tempests were replaced by Furies operating from Kohat. In 1960 trouble erupted again, this time in Dir – Bajaur area and PAF (RPAF’s nomenclature had been changed to PAF in 1956) was again deployed operationally to quell the rebellion.

Flying in support of the Pakistan Army troops, PAF flew strafing, reconnaissance, bombing and extensive leaflet dropping missions. Furies and the newly acquired Sabre jets flew the bulk of the missions during the campaign that also saw meaningful participation by the RT-33 jets, Freighter transport planes and the H-43 helicopters.


During the entire operations that continued until 1962, PAF did not suffer a single mishap, and the air-land cooperation between the Army and the Air Force was considered very satisfactory. The Dir-Bajaur rebellion was successfully put down by 1962, which witnessed the end of nearly two and a half decades of watch and ward duties by the service in Pakistan’s tribal belts.

Waziristan Revisited – Army Operation Al Mizan – 2004

When the USA decided to invade Afghanistan in October 2001, following the 9/11 attack on its soil, Pakistan was sucked into somebody else’s long-drawn war which it could ill afford. Before 9/11, Pakistan was one of the only three countries to recognise and have ties with the Taliban regime.

It had to take a complete summersault in its Afghan policy and permit the US and Coalition forces to use its territory to topple the Taliban rule in Afghanistan, in effect becoming a key coalition partner. The move did not go well with the public, and the wave of anti-American sentiments that was generated has still not subsided.

The defeated Taliban leadership and foot soldiers were not destroyed, and they melted away and took refuge among their Pakistani Pashtun clansmen across the Durand Line (the official border between Pakistan and Afghanistan). When the focus of USA shifted from Afghanistan to Iraq in 2003, the Taliban recuperated and regrouped in Pakistan’s Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA) to start a campaign to regain power in Afghanistan.

ATLIS equipped F-16s flew over the area trained their ATLIS pods over the suspected sites and brought back video footages for analysis

The sanctuaries that the Taliban enjoyed in Pakistani held territories from where they could conduct their operations against the NATO and Afghan forces in Afghanistan became a severe bone of contention between USA and Pakistan. Under intense US pressure, Pakistan was forced to launch a military campaign in South Waziristan where the Taliban were firmly established.

South Waziristan is one of the Federally Administered Tribal Areas that was a part of Pakistan but had enjoyed a very high degree of autonomy – the tribes followed their practices and customs. They would not welcome any interference from the federal government. Even the British in their heydays had shied away from establishing their authority if the tribes did not harm their core interests.

Operation Al Mizan was launched in South Waziristan by the Pakistan Army in June 2004. During the planning phase at GHQ, Air Headquarters was not taken on board although air support from the PAF was envisaged and it was recognised that the campaign was likely to be conducted as a classical air-land battle where air support would form a key ingredient.

As the battle unfolded, PAF was requested to fly emergency surveillance and reconnaissance missions to identify enemy ambush sites, supply depots and compounds from where their leadership and foot soldiers operated and having pinpointed the targets follow up with interdiction missions to neutralise them.


Since the Army was working against insurgents employing 4GW technique, the targets to be identified were small, generally located amidst local population and in many instances fleeting in nature. PAF’s tactical reconnaissance capabilities had been developed for operations against conventional forces. The sophisticated cameras in its reconnaissance fleet were optimised to capture relatively large stationary targets and were not ideally suited to locate and identify small ones.

The service had to improvise in an emergency, and instead of employing the specialist Mirage reconnaissance fleet, it opted for the ATLIS pod equipped F-16s to accomplish the task. The ATLIS pods are airborne auto laser designators for the delivery of laser-guided bombs during surgical strikes. It has an inbuilt TV camera that video records the target for post-mission analysis. Given the peculiar nature of the task the auto laser designators although not initially designed for pinpoint reconnaissance were considered more appropriate.

The Army provided the PAF approximate coordinates of observed enemy fire, likely ambush sites and suspected enemy hideouts. ATLIS equipped F-16s flew over the area trained their ATLIS pods over the suspected sites and brought back video footages for analysis.

The results were subsequently conveyed to the GHQ, and with their input, interdiction targets were selected for subsequent airstrikes. Because no special communication setup had been established for the purpose, the entire process could take up to 24 hours. Where targets were fleeting, the time delay resulted in lost opportunities.

However, where these were of a fixed nature like specific houses/compounds which served as their supply dumps/command and control centres and where their commanders and foot soldiers resided, the intelligence gathered proved very useful. More than a dozen ATLIS equipped F-16 sorties were launched, and on occasions, Mirage reconnaissance platforms were also flown.

A ceasefire followed by a peace accord was eventually signed with the rebels in the hope that the tribesmen would cease supporting the foreign elements that had taken shelter with them

The PAF mounted a concerted effort and provided close support to friendly forces engaged in combat during the duration of the campaign. Interdiction targets generally comprised specific houses/compounds within a village or in isolation.

On receipt of target information from the Army in the shape of coordinates, PAF would first fly a reconnaissance mission using ATLIS equipped F-16s to accurately identify target location and engage it with F-16s armed with Laser Guided Bombs (LGBs), staying well clear of the ranges of enemy small arms fire and shoulder-fired hand-held SAMs.

The entire campaign and air operations lasted for about three months. About 60 to 70 interdiction/close support missions were flown, all by the F-16 fleet and only GBU 12 and GBU 10 (500 and 2000 pounds LGBs) were dropped.

Operation Al Mizan achieved partial success but was unable to gain a decisive victory. Lacking skill and experience of fighting an insurgency war in unfamiliar and hostile terrain, the campaign failed to achieve its primary military objective of eliminating the presence of a sizeable number of foreign fighters in the region whose subversive activities across the Durand Line had earned Pakistan the wrath of the world’s lone superpower, which threatened its security.

A ceasefire followed by a peace accord was eventually signed with the rebels in the hope that the tribesmen would cease supporting the foreign elements that had taken shelter with them.

Insufficient level of joint planning between GHQ and AHQ at the conceptual stage, inadequate imagery facility, shortage of specialised weapons systems, lack of training for this type of warfare and absence of online systems for quick information dissemination and sharing among the various elements involved in the operations were some of the key lessons that emerged after the conclusion of Operation Al Mizan.

The first incursion by the Pakistani armed forces in Waziristan in 1947 had continued in fits and starts for a decade and a half – the terms and conditions of the fragile peace accord of 2004 suggested that history was likely to repeat itself and the Pakistani armed forces would once again be called upon to mount further efforts soon to stabilise the troubled region.

Operation Falcon Sweep (PAF) and Sherdil (Army) – Swat, Bajaur and Mohmand Agencies – August 2008 to April 2009
Despite peace overtures and political concessions by the Federal Government of Pakistan to pacify the tribesmen, the situation continued to deteriorate. TTP’s influence spread beyond the Federally Administrated Tribal Areas (FATA) into the Swat and adjoining Buner valleys.

Mullah Fazlullah, the leader of the Tehreek e Nifaze Shariate Muhammadi (TNSM), an extremist religious outfit affiliated with the Al Qaeda philosophy, established a reign of terror in the valleys virtually paralysing the civil administration. Pak Army was tasked to subdue the rebellion and re-establish the writ of the government.

Operation Sherdil was conceived and launched by the Pakistan Army, and the PAF’s Operation Falcon Sweep supported it. While AHQ was aware of the impending Army action, it had not been involved in the planning stages. It did, however, carry out contingency plans to provide the kind of air support that had been asked for in earlier operations of a similar nature.

After an intense battle, the land forces working in tandem with the PAF had inflicted heavy losses on the insurgents, but Mullah Fazlullah and many of his followers managed to survive the blitz

During the campaign, PAF was tasked to engage an array of targets ranging from enemy hideouts, surface and underground structures housing their Command and Control Centres, ammunition dumps, supply depots, training camps and infiltration and exit routes of the insurgents. Air attacks were conducted in Swat, Matta, Khwazakhela and Peochar sectors. Some of the targets were situated among the local population, while others were in more isolated regions.

The Taliban had captured a strategic pass at Loe Sam through which regular intake of trained militants from Afghanistan to the Swat Valley was being conducted via Bajaur Agency.

The Taliban forces had to be ejected from the Loe Sam pass. When an infantry unit along with its armour support was moving through the narrow town bazaar street in a built-up area on their way to Loe Sam, the insurgents knocked off the lead, and rear tanks trapping the troops and ambushed them from the sides.

An emergency close support call to help rescue the beleaguered troops was made to the PAF which responded within an hour. PGM equipped F-16s were launched, and the enemy positions from where ambush fire was being directed were identified, engaged and destroyed with pinpoint accuracy. Because of the timely air support and bold counterattack by the troops, the ambush was neutralised.

Read more: PAF will never let India forget ‘Surprise Day’, Remembers fantastic tea with new song

Standard interdiction missions against enemy caves, tunnels and other targets were continuously flown as requested by the Army for the duration of the campaign that stretched to about four months. The scale and tempo of air operations during Operation Falcon Sweep were of a much larger magnitude than the earlier ones.

Despite an improvement in procedures, innovations and aircrew training, some of the lessons from the previous COIN operations had still not been adequately addressed. While there had been better air-land cooperation during the campaign, the need to fully integrate air and land operational plans at the initial planning stages of any air-land battle was still missing.

After an intense battle, the land forces working in tandem with the PAF had inflicted heavy losses on the insurgents, but Mullah Fazlullah and many of his followers managed to survive the blitz. The government, due to political expediencies, ordered a ceasefire and signed a peace accord with the rebels that still left the Valley under the latter’s control. While major operations in the valleys were over in about four months, sporadic air operations against militants in FATA continued till April 2009.

Operation Tri-Star – Lifting the Siege of Fort Laddah – January 2009
The unprecedented magnitude of military incursion in South Waziristan by the security forces of Pakistan had stirred up a hornets’ nest in the rest of the tribal areas of the country. It gave birth to a new terror outfit under the nomenclature of Tehreek e Taliban Pakistan (TTP).

While maintaining its ideological link to the Afghan Taliban and Al Qaeda, TTP directed its terror activities primarily on civilian and military targets within the tribal areas and in the rest of the country. Under Baitullah Mehsud, a Waziri, TTP besieged Fort Laddah in South Waziristan where a sizeable number of Frontier Constabulary (FC) troops of Pakistan were stationed.

The success of Operation Tri-Star vindicated the need for full integration of land and air plans from the conceptual stage to the end state of the campaign

They murdered the FC troops around the water source close to the Fort, capturing it and laid a siege around it. FC troops at Fort Laddah were virtually isolated and could not be reinforced with either ration or ammunition. Unless the blockade was broken the troops at Fort Laddah faced an imminent capitulation to the forces of Baitullah Mehsud.

Under the codename Tri-Star, GHQ planned and launched a military manoeuvre against the renegades under Baitullah Mehsud at Ladda. PAF was taken into confidence and was requested to engage the militants’ strongholds, firing positions, ammunition dumps, residential quarters and training camps in the vicinity of the Fort.

The PAF unleashed a focussed interdiction campaign against the besiegers primarily with PGMs for better effectiveness and lower collateral damage. Operation Tri-Star was completed in 15 days. With the help of PAF’s very lethal interdiction campaign and the professionalism and bravery of the troops of Pakistan Army that had taken part in the Operation, Baitullah’s forces were routed, and the siege lifted.

The battlefield environment during Operation Tri-Star was closer to a conventional set up in which identification of enemy targets was comparatively more straightforward than in a classical insurgency where the insurgents by design position themselves among the local populace.

That the PAF was forewarned about the impending Operation and that accurate intelligence data about the enemy was available both from the Army and the PAF’s resources made the interdiction campaign very effective. The success of Operation Tri-Star vindicated the need for full integration of land and air plans from the conceptual stage to the end state of the campaign.

Advanced Preparation by the Air Staff for Subsequent COIN Operations
The Air Staff was convinced that the peace accord in Swat was very fragile and was likely to breakdown. Anticipating another major combined land-air operation soon it decided to prepare in advance for such an eventuality.

PAF had recently received fresh high-resolution reconnaissance pods for its F-16 fleet from the USA which was made operational in record time. A comprehensive aerial survey and imagery of the entire Swat and Buner valleys along with Bajaur and Mohmand agencies was conducted using these pods. The excellent results of the imaging came in very handy in subsequent operations.

On PAF’s recommendations, airstrikes preceded the land offensive by two days. Over 150 F-16 sorties with LGBs struck the identified enemy targets effectively destroying them

The importance of joint planning during any air-land operations had been accepted in principle by both GHQ and AHQ but more needed to be done to turn the theory into reality. The then boss of air operations at the Air Staff, Air Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman, was convinced that rather than respond to Army’s requests for air support as the campaign unfolds, it would be far better if PAF at the planning phase reached out and offered them the kind of support the service can provide at every stage of the campaign.

The PAF Operation Burq and Army Rah e Rast Unleashed in Swat – May 7 2009
The Swat peace accord did crumble as anticipated, and in May 2009 the Armed Forces of Pakistan were once again tasked to crush the forces of Mullah Fazlullah. Contingency plans for such an eventuality that had already been worked out during joint sessions between senior planning staff of GHQ and AHQ were set in motion. The stage was set for the launch of a full-fledged air and land assault under the codenames Burq and Rah e Rast respectively.

Attractive tourist spots of Swat and Buner valleys had a high density of civil population. Any military action against the rebels who had embedded themselves with the civilians ran the risk of unacceptably great collateral damage. On the recommendation of the Armed Forces, the Federal Government took the difficult decision of asking the people in the valleys to uproot and relocate outside the likely war zones for the duration of the conflict.

The people of Swat and Buner who had been traumatised by the brutality of TNSM rule were willing to pay the price to end the tyranny. A clear majority decided to heed the government’s request and left their hearths and homes – some seeking shelter with their relatives in other parts of the country, and the rest are roughing it out in the hastily arranged state-run refugee camps.

Ensuring temporary shelters for the mass exodus of the human population from the likely war zones was a logistics’ nightmare. Besides taxing the administrative ability of the state functionaries to the very limit, it put a heavy financial burden on the already cash strapped national economy.

It did, however, give a relatively free run to the military to go after the insurgents without fear of causing high civilian casualties. Even after taking such a radical step, the danger of collateral damage could not be ruled out, and both at GHQ and AHQ strict rules of engagements were formulated and enforced to keep it to a bare minimum.

For the formulation of a comprehensive air plan, the updated imagery of the valleys and agencies were studied, and in coordination with GHQ and inputs from relevant human intelligence sources, enemy ambush sites, supply depots, ammunition dumps, ingress and escape routes and their command and control centres were identified.

Members of mid and high-level leadership of the insurgents are considered prime and legitimate targets in COIN operations. Being aware that they will continuously be under surveillance and threat of attack, their movements are planned in secrecy, and they scrupulously avoid staying at one place for any length of time.

Action on any intelligence on their movement or whereabouts, therefore, must be immediate. The Americans, based on their COIN experience had developed the Time Sensitive Targeting (TST) concept where after fusion of human and electronic intelligence, systems were put in place where information on the location and/or movement of key targets get disseminated to the decision-makers in real-time.

The valiant men of the Pakistan Army ably supported by the PAF could accomplish the mission in record time with far lower casualties than it had suffered in the earlier operations of similar scale and magnitude

Appropriate strike platforms (aircraft/drones) available on very short notice are then released to neutralise them. The Air Staff evaluated TST concept and after validation, through air Exercise Highmark, was modified to suit the local conditions and adopted for future COIN operations.

On PAF’s recommendations, airstrikes preceded the land offensive by two days. Over 150 F-16 sorties with LGBs struck the identified enemy targets effectively destroying them. During this phase, besides attacking the ambush sites and logistics chain, even the possible escape routes and passes of the enemy were targeted, reducing their ability to melt away from the battle zones.

Because of the targeted and intense interdiction campaign, the ability of the insurgents to resist the advancing Army formations was severely degraded. During this phase, LGB carrying Mirage platforms were also employed where target lasing was accomplished by the commandoes of PAF’s Special Surface Wing (SSW), using hand-held ground laser designators.

An illustration of the degree of air-land cooperation can be gauged from the episode of the heliborne landing of a 1500 strong Commando force in the Peochar Valley. On being briefed about the impending Operation, the air planners at JO Directorate studied the latest imagery of the landing area.

They noticed several suspicious sites from where deadly ambush fire could be directed against the landing helicopters. After further scrutiny and discussion with the army commanders, it was decided that an air interdiction campaign in the Valley to take out the ambush sites should precede the landing. Through a concerted interdiction effort, the militant strongholds and ambush sites that could bring fire on landing helicopters were neutralised.

As a result, the helicopter landings of 1500 Commando troops was accomplished without any mishap. Even after the successful landing of heliborne force, PAF the aircraft maintained their presence over the Valley providing immediate Close Support to the troops. A detachment of the PAF Commando Force (Special Services Wing – SSW) had also participated in the mission along with the Army Special Services Groups (SSG).

Ensuring collateral damage is kept to the bare minimum is one of the cardinal principals during COIN operations. To that end, PAF Rules of Engagement (ROE) spelt out that no aerial attack over the built-up area by fixed-wing platforms of the service will be conducted unless the vacation of civilians can be guaranteed by the Pakistan Army, civil administration of the area and resident notables.

In one instance when a formation of the Pakistan Army was engaged in heavy close quarter battle in an urban warfare scenario, pinpoint airstrikes on the rebel forces operating from houses located in a densely built-up area would have brought a swift end to the rebel resistance at a fraction of cost to own casualty. The aerial bombardment would, however, cause extensive damage to the city property.

The drones (UAVs) with the service were not as advanced and could not carry weapons, but they were very useful in the electronic and video surveillance and eavesdropping mode

The Army opted to accept higher casualties in its ranks and did not ask for any interdiction bombing missions. The enemy was eventually overpowered through hand to hand combat using small arms fire and mortar shells. At a high cost to own casualties, the damage to the city property was kept to a relatively low level by the Army formation.

Between May 7 and until the end of the campaign over 500 combat missions were flown by the PAF and more than 1700 LGBs were dropped. The valiant men of the Pakistan Army ably supported by the PAF could accomplish the mission in record time with far lower casualties than it had suffered in the earlier operations of similar scale and magnitude.

Fazlullah and his TNSM forces were routed and expelled from the valleys. Freed from the clutches of the barbaric TNSM rule the brave people of Swat and Buner who had migrated during the conflict started to return home.

Swat and Buner had been liberated from the clutches of the TNSM brigands and the displaced persons returned to their homeland, but the war on the terror outfits elsewhere had still to be won. The danger of TNSM forces making a comeback could not be ruled out. Army formations in the valleys maintained their presence there.


At the same time, the PAF continued to keep an aerial vigil on the activities and movements of the rebel forces in and around the region. Post-Rah e Rast and Operation Burq, PAF continued to attack militant targets in Buner, Lower Dir, Bajaur, Mohmand, Orakzai and Kurram Agencies.

During the military operations, TNSM ranks had been swelled by reinforcements from TTP and the Taliban from across the Durand Line. On being routed from the valleys, some of them managed to escape to their sanctuaries in South Waziristan from where they continued their terror and subversive activities. Another military expedition in South Waziristan appeared imminent.

1. Waziristan Once Again – Operation Rah e Nijat
After the successful military action, a degree of normality had returned in Swat, but unrest in South Waziristan failed to abate and continued to brew, fuelled further by the TNSM, TTP and Al Qaeda escapees from Swat and Buner. Another major operation there was on the card. AHQ and GHQ decided to prepare a contingency plan for such an eventuality.

The PAF flew fresh reconnaissance missions in S. Waziristan, updating the target data and identifying new ones. Air operations of Operation Burq were analysed and procedures refined. Network for sharing of online intelligence, imagery and other key information was set up between AHQ – GHQ and AHQ – Operational Bases. An air support team headed by a two-star PAF officer was established at Joint Operations Directorate at GHQ to coordinate all air activities for the duration of the campaign.

On confirmed reports of the presence of Taliban combatants/commanders at a specified compound in the Tribal Area, PAF had launched a dawn strike to take them out

PAF did not possess the superior electronic eavesdropping facility that US forces possessed, nor did it own sophisticated armed drones of the Predator or Reaper class. Its human intelligence capability was, however, more effective than those of ISAF and NATO forces in Afghanistan.

The drones (UAVs) with the service were not as advanced and could not carry weapons, but they were very useful in the electronic and video surveillance and eavesdropping mode. The drones were made a component of PAF’s TST operations and were extensively employed for the purpose during Operation Rah e Nijat.

A concept of Quick Reaction Force (QRF) was conceived where armed aircraft and pilots in ready status were made available to take on any Time Sensitive Targets at short notice. For even faster reaction, armed aircraft were airborne and positioned on predetermined stations, similar to the concept of Combat Air Patrol (CAP), ready to react immediately on receipt of attack orders – except in this case they were configured to take on ground targets instead of airborne ones.

Air interdiction campaign was launched on October 10 2009, ahead of the land offensive followed five days later. One hundred fifty targets that had been mutually coordinated with GHQ were successfully engaged during the first phase. Enemy defences and logistics stamina were softened.

Army offensive commenced on the 17th – the two days’ delay occurred due to inclement weather. Once the land manoeuvre got underway, PAF continued to fly interdiction and close support (CS) missions. TST concept was extensively employed, and during critical phases of the battle, CAP stations were maintained for immediate reaction to any CS requests.


The employment of ground-based laser designation for LGB carrying Mirages was also an integral part of the air campaign. The Star Sapphire equipped C-130s continued to provide live video images of the critical battle zones to the field commanders on a near 24/7 basis. The PAF drones were extensively flown on Intelligence Surveillance and Reconnaissance (ISR) missions. Overall, PAF had flown over 600 operational sorties during the conduct phase of the battle.

Some of the psychological impacts of PAF’s innovative actions came to light after the campaign through the interrogation of the captured Taliban fighters. Small teams of Taliban foot soldiers lightly armed with Kalashnikovs and RPGs needing little logistics support would take positions on hilltops overlooking the movement of Pak Army formations.

As the Army units would be passing through the Valley, they would fire their weapons and RPGs, aiming to cripple the lead and rear vehicles. The trapped elements then became vulnerable to enemy fire from ambush parties appropriately positioned for the purpose.

In the earlier campaigns, once the ambush party’s position was revealed the Army would train their artillery fire and direct the Cobra gunships towards the site. The reaction time before accurate artillery fire was brought to bear on the target or the Cobra gunships could react allowed the ambush posse to melt away safely.

During Operation Rah e Nijat, in line with the TST concept, LGB equipped F-16s patrolled over the battlefield within striking distance. As soon as the ambush party opened fire and revealed their position, target coordination was passed on to the pilots. From a height where the aircraft could neither have been seen nor heard, the F-16s would launch their deadly accurate laser-guided bombs.

Major air and land operations during Rah e Nijat were officially over by November 2009. Within one year PAF and Pakistan Army had successfully fought and won two major campaigns in Swat and South Waziristan

The victims would realise the mortal danger only in the form of a sharp whistle of the bomb just seconds before its impact. This invisible angel of death created a major scare among the Taliban ranks. Those who experienced the attacks but managed to survive referred to them as the whistling death, which they could neither see nor react against. It was, in their opinion, a great demoralising factor.

The strategy required for ensuring minimum collateral damage by the PAF was a very challenging one. While the service took all precautions to minimise chances of collateral damage even at the cost of tying one hand behind the back where necessary, the adversary as a matter of deliberate policy adopted steps to promote it, using civilians as human shields were standard practice with them. They were not even averse to putting their women and children in the line of fire to protect their combatants.

A bizarre case of unintentional collateral damage came to light during one of the air raids. On confirmed reports of the presence of Taliban combatants/commanders at a specified compound in the Tribal Area, PAF had launched a dawn strike to take them out.

Being aware of the cultural nuances of the locals where the guests are accommodated in the guest house portion of the complex while the family members reside in a separate section, only the guest house section was targeted to avoid harming the women and children.


Post bombing assessment revealed that the arrangement had been reversed because the Taliban were aware that if the news about the presence of their combatants got compromised, PAF would not target the family residential part of the house. To protect their fighters and commanders, they were willing to put their womenfolk and children in harm’s way. The PAF subsequently took further steps through even better intelligence to avoid recurrence of such nature.

As a consequence of the excellent cooperation between the PAF and the Pakistan Army, Operation Rah e Nijat achieved its mission objectives ahead of schedule and with far lower than anticipated casualties. A truly joint air-land campaign extracted maximum benefits from each other’s specific strengths and created the synergy, so critical in any form of warfare, especially those conducted under a 4GW setting.

The brilliant success of air operations during Rah e Rast and Rah e Nijat notwithstanding, there were still some areas that needed to be addressed. During the operations, PAF lacked precision night engagement capability, and this limitation allowed the enemy a degree of freedom of movement at night. The recent induction of Block 52 F-16 aircraft will provide the service with the ability to maintain pressure on the adversary on a 24/7 basis.

PAF yet does not have air-to-air refuelling facility for its combat fleet. A couple of Probe and Drogue Russian tankers have been acquired, and efforts are afoot to modify some of the Mirages to give them the ability to carry out mid-air refuelling.

Plans to have the entire JF-17 fleet capable of aerial refuelling are on the table while procurement of a Boom and Receptacle (Flying Boom) tanker to provide a similar capability for the F-16 fleet is under active consideration. With the availability of air-to-air refuelling, PAF’s ability to maintain round the clock presence over the battlefield will be further enhanced.


ISR is an essential component in any form of warfare, and in a 4GW setting, it is critical. While the PAF has made much progress in the recent past in this field, the exponential rate at which computer technology and miniaturisation is advancing has resulted in very rapid development and availability of better systems.

The service must continue to remain abreast of the latest technological developments in the ISR department and acquire them wherever possible. Developing indigenous capability in this area should continue to be accorded a very high priority.

Major air and land operations during Rah e Nijat were officially over by November 2009. Within one year PAF and Pakistan Army had successfully fought and won two major campaigns in Swat and South Waziristan. While the battles had been won, the war on militancy and extremism still raged. The service remains vigilant and is prepared for future air actions of similar or even greater magnitude.

Note: All operational details were obtained from briefing and files from the PAF’s Directorate of Operations.

Air Cdre (Retd) Jamal Hussain has served in Pakistan Air Force from 1966 to 1997. He was awarded Sitara-e-Basalat for his services in the year 1982. He regularly contributes articles on defense issues in the Defence Journal from Pakistan, Probe Magazine (Dhaka – Bangladesh) and national newspapers including Dawn, The News, and The Nation. He is the author of two books on ‘Air Power in South Asia’ and ‘Dynamics of Nuclear Weapons in South Asia’. The views expressed in this article are the author’s own and do not necessarily reflect the editorial policy of Global Village Space.

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## air marshal

PAF Ilyushin IL-78MP Midas spotted in China (July 14, 2020)

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## fatman17

China ramps up production of JF-17 fighter jet

Source: Globaltimes.cn Published: 2020

A JF-17 fighter jet attached to the Pakistan Air Force flies towards the designated airspace during an air-to-ground offensive operation drill conducted by two Chinese JH-7 fighter bombers and two Pakistani JF-17 fighter jets on Sept. 20, 2017. File Photo: eng.chinamil.com.cn


China has ramped up production of JF-17 fighter jet, which was jointly developed with Pakistan. In the first half of 2020, the number of aircraft delivered was the most in the past five years, according to industry reports.

As of June 30, the production line of the JF-17 has on average shortened the production period of a single aircraft by 15 days compared to last year, China Aviation News, a newspaper affiliated with the state-owned Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC), reported last week.

The Pakistani Air Force is the main operator of JF-17 fighter jets. Myanmar also flies the Chinese-Pakistani made fighter jets.

The latest, powered-up version of the JF-17, known as the JF-17 Block 3, made its maiden flight in December 2019, the Aerospace Knowledge magazine reported then.

In March 2019, Yang Wei, chief designer of the China-Pakistan co-developed fighter jet, said development and production of the JF-17 Block 3 was underway, and the third block will see the JF-17's information-based warfare capability and weapons upgraded.

Some other countries have also approached AVIC about purchasing the JF-17 Block 3, Yang said last year.

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## The Eagle

An advisory is issued for those who can hurt themselves, shall stay away from this picture. Nothing to see here.

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## JamD

The Eagle said:


> An advisory is issued for those who can hurt themselves, shall stay away from this picture. Nothing to see here.
> View attachment 651303


What are our boys doing with South Koreans?


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## The Eagle

JamD said:


> What are our boys doing with South Koreans?



That's interesting & on the same time, kept away from any news or enthusiasts. However, let's carry our discussion at
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paf-south-korean-air-force-l-learning-from-experience.676106/

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## SQ8

The Eagle said:


> An advisory is issued for those who can hurt themselves, shall stay away from this picture. Nothing to see here.
> View attachment 651303


PAF regularly goes to SK for G-training since we don’t have a centrifuge in country.

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## air marshal

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1283424999668359168

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## Nomad40

The Eagle said:


> An advisory is issued for those who can hurt themselves, shall stay away from this picture. Nothing to see here.
> View attachment 651303


old picture.

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## Adam_Khan

SQ8 said:


> PAF regularly goes to SK for G-training since we don’t have a centrifuge in country.



Yes they go there for G-training on their centrifuge. Here is another picture.

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## The Eagle

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> old picture.



Indeed. Even if I was in tour; wouldn't be sharing fresh ones at all at-least for days or a week and if permitted.


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## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/AgustaWestland-AW139/2836

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## 8 pass charlie

air marshal said:


> https://falcons.pk/photo/AgustaWestland-AW139/2836


this is the s_xiest and coolest pic of aw139 I have ever seen

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## fatman17

July 17th 2009 F-16A Block-15 serial no.92-729 was on a routine night training mission when it crashed close to village of Nur Pur, 105km south west of Sargodha. The pilot, Squadron Leader Saud Ghulam Nabi embraced Shahadat. https://t.co/79W3FHIQqe

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## air marshal

8 pass charlie said:


> this is the s_xiest and coolest pic of aw139 I have ever seen

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## The Eagle

Just a nice picture...

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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52

Dedicated to all Martyrs of Pakistan Air Force

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## ghazi52

PAC Kamra and Minhas Air Base

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## air marshal

Another Egyptian C-130H (Reg. No. 1273) landed today at OPRN

https://www.falcons.pk/photo/Lockheed-C-130H-Hercules/2852

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## airbus101

ghazi52 said:


> PAC Kamra and Minhas Air Base
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/QUOTE is it possible to upload the high resolution

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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52



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## fatman17

An interesting update on the #PAF: Following these images it seems as if the JF-17B "Thunder" has entered PAF-service within the No. 16 Squadron "Black Panthers". https://t.co/pc3PcYqCxB

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## hassan1



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## ghazi52



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## fatman17

PAF magazine, Second to None.

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## Talon

A fighter squadron to move out from *R *and shift to *M*.The squadron moving out will be replaced by a *J* squadron.

Aqalmand hazraat can easily guess..


@HRK @Windjammer @khanasifm @fatman17 @Trailer23

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## untitled

Hodor said:


> Aqalmand hazraat can easily guess..


So a delta/change is taking place at *R*


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## PurpleButcher

Hodor said:


> A fighter squadron to move out from *R *and shift to *M*.The squadron moving out will be replaced by a *J* squadron.
> 
> Aqalmand hazraat can easily guess..
> 
> 
> @HRK @Windjammer @khanasifm @fatman17 @Trailer23


*J* or *JF *


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## HRK

PurpleButcher said:


> *J* or *JF *





> Aqalmand hazraat can easily guess..

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## The Eagle

Hodor said:


> A fighter squadron to move out from *R *and shift to *M*.The squadron moving out will be replaced by a *J* squadron.
> 
> Aqalmand hazraat can easily guess..
> 
> 
> @HRK @Windjammer @khanasifm @fatman17 @Trailer23



See you at Gulbai Truck Stand.

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## Tipu7

Hodor said:


> A fighter squadron to move out from *R *and shift to *M*.The squadron moving out will be replaced by a *J* squadron.
> 
> Aqalmand hazraat can easily guess..
> 
> 
> @HRK @Windjammer @khanasifm @fatman17 @Trailer23



Let me connect;

A Jf17 Sq from Kamra is moving to Shorkot to switch place with a Mirage Sq.

And that Mirage Sq will be getting new Js and will operate from Kamra.

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## The Eagle

Tipu7 said:


> Let me say;
> 
> A Jf17 Sq from Kamra is moving to Shorkot to switch place with a Mirage Sq.
> 
> And that Mirage Sq will be getting new Js and will operate from Kamra.



Isn't Masroor is equipped with new thunders relieving Mirages that are supposed to go to new home where there squadron will be quipped with Js?

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## Tipu7

The Eagle said:


> Isn't Masroor is equipped with new thunders relieving Mirages that are supposed to go to new home where there squadron will be quipped with Js?


I am just connecting the dots and we should belive something only after physical evidence.

Rumors suggest, there are two new Js, not one. One for Minhas, One for Masroor.



Maxpane said:


> sir when ate they going to announce it?


After Rafale touch down in India. Probably before Eid. (Again rumor)



StormBreaker said:


> Come on Tipu bhai,
> A simple J doesn’t say much and yet isn’t even a singular type but actually plural.
> J-15+J-10, As per Hodor, Most probably No.15 going to Masroor ?


Rumor bro Rumor. I am mere connecting dots.

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## Tipu7

The Eagle said:


> Of-course Tipu Bhai... doing the same thing that if everyone try to make a best possible guess, there might be a point that we will close to reality. Minhas is new while everyone was like guessing about Masroor getting equipped with Thunders + one new platform relieving Mirages.


And add to that, one Mirage squadron is moving to Bholari (probably from Masroor).
A lot of movement taking place. PAF is preparing to spoil Indian Rafale celebrations.

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## StormBreaker

Tipu7 said:


> And add to that, one Mirage squadron is moving to Bholari (probably from Masroor).
> A lot of movement taking place. PAF is preparing to spoil Indian Rafale celebrations.


Ohhh noo.

So finally Mirages are leaving KHI for good 

Well, It’s been a pleasure.

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## Tariq Habib Afridi

Tipu7 said:


> And add to that, one Mirage squadron is moving to Bholari (probably from Masroor).
> A lot of movement taking place. PAF is preparing to spoil Indian Rafale celebrations.


Now i have some sympathy for Indians. becharayyyy

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## The Eagle

Maxpane said:


> yes sir two js big one and medium one. where there is a smoke there is a fire



Bhai.... these chatters of interest and even few mentioned on account when PAF was happy with two platforms and then we heard a slip of tongue such as 10C/P hence the 10C/E or even went to twin engine that participated in exercise and then after someone saw the leadership enjoying the ride & briefed accordingly. Then comes the time when PAF, rumor I say, tried to look into SU-35s while on the same time someone was looking at EFTs as well. Both of them didn't materialize, as far as we know or could be otherwise but in the end; the need of new platform arises since Operation Swift Retort especially when India went on shopping spree. 

Block-III alone is not enough and professionals do know. Not just because of tech or etc, don't want to create a new issue but numbers always matters especially when your adversary is buying everything new on the market with latest weaponry. A supplementing force with more punch was need of hour and am sure, these developments aren't new or sudden though, very few heard a bit of chatter at times. There is also a feeling and one or two parties deliberately tried to linger on talks and cause a harmful delay while this side, been straight forward, discussed & asked for it, got all the feasibility report and executed in a manner that those denying anything are to be surprised as well. 

The smoke was there as the fire was lighted. Time seems to be close enough to see end results. May ALLAH help us and give us more strength to fulfill our duties & responsibilities. Ameen.



Tipu7 said:


> And add to that, one Mirage squadron is moving to Bholari (probably from Masroor).
> A lot of movement taking place. PAF is preparing to spoil Indian Rafale celebrations.



Exactly. Deltas are going to accompany with Vipers. However, it's like parading the party.

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## StormBreaker

The Eagle said:


> Bhai.... these chatters of interest and even few mentioned on account when PAF was happy with two platforms and then we heard a slip of tongue such as 10C/P hence the 10C/E or even went to twin engine that participated in exercise and then after someone saw the leadership enjoying the ride & briefed accordingly. Then comes the time when PAF, rumor I say, tried to look into SU-35s while on the same time someone was looking at EFTs as well. Both of them didn't materialize, as far as we know or could be otherwise but in the end; the need of new platform arises since Operation Swift Retort especially when India went on shopping spree.
> 
> Block-III alone is not enough and professionals do know. Not just because of tech or etc, don't want to create a new issue but numbers always matters especially when your adversary is buying everything new on the market with latest weaponry. A supplementing force with more punch was need of hour and am sure, these developments aren't new or sudden though, very few heard a bit of chatter at times. There is also a feeling and one or two parties deliberately tried to linger on talks and cause a harmful delay while this side, been straight forward, discussed & asked for it, got all the feasibility report and executed in a manner that those denying anything are to be surprised as well.
> 
> The smoke was there as the fire was lighted. Time seems to be close enough to see end results. May ALLAH help us and give us more strength to fulfill our duties & responsibilities. Ameen.
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly. Deltas are going to accompany with Vipers. However, it's like parading the party.


Given these recent disclosures by Hodor and Tipu bhai, (squadron movement)
It seems, That PAF has opened not one but total 4 fronts now.

The distribution of Mirages as well as Ground attack specific planes at different points indicate that the early morning bombing at India, The Mirages and Thunder accompanied by air superiority F-16s, Seems that this combo has been beautifully distributed throughout Pakistan now.

Welldone PAF, WELLDONE. !!!!


India is in for a phase of depression and panic

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## air marshal

OPERATION SWIFT RETORT Formation Flypast

https://www.falcons.pk/photo/JF-17-Thunder/2862

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## nomi007

air marshal said:


> OPERATION SWIFT RETORT Formation Flypast
> 
> https://www.falcons.pk/photo/JF-17-Thunder/2862


Swift retort was a great example of Team Work.
On the other side, Endians were shocked by the surprise attack.

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## Safriz

air marshal said:


> OPERATION SWIFT RETORT Formation Flypast
> 
> https://www.falcons.pk/photo/JF-17-Thunder/2862


So, all jets used in the attack weren't even the new ones.
F-16 were old MLU not the new block 52+
Thunder were block 1
And mirages are old anyway.
Basically slapped India with broken old slippers

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## PDF

While you all discussing possibilities, I am thinking the cost of induction of 2 new platforms and relevant funds which will have to be dedicated to them to mantain. I for one never believed any new 4-4.5 gen aircraft would be inducted other than increasing the platforms in our inventory till we get 5 gen jet; and the only exception to this would have been the threat from IAF forcing us to revise and go for different and new fighter jets. 
So what have we got here:

J-20
J10
J15
J16
2&3
2&4
1&2
Bluff/Dis-information
Although, it is highly unlikely that Pakistan will buy or even lease 2 new platforms seeing the costs of operational them and logical too, I can only conclude that if the news is true, PAF did it so to surprise IAF and wrong their predictions. I bet IAF thought PAF will never ever induct 2 new platforms because it bring not rational or potentially possible and it makes zero sense. Surprise!

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## ziaulislam

So far we dont know..
This is true for almost all deals till they are offically disclosed ..
Noone knew about the vt tank deal or the type 54 frigates untill the very end and that too all of sudden

With respect to cost it all depends what china offers

PAF would probably be better off with flanker series because it can offer heavy super sonic missle(like brahmos) and very long range future heavy bvr that j10 might not be able to carry

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## air marshal

https://www.falcons.pk/photo/General-Dynamics-F-16AM-Fighting-Falcon/2720

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## Trailer23

Hodor said:


> A fighter squadron to move out from *R *and shift to *M*.The squadron moving out will be replaced by a *J* squadron.
> 
> Aqalmand hazraat can easily guess..


Sorry yaar, been editing for 4-straight hours  .
[filhal aqalBUND]​

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## Thorough Pro

PAF Check-mating before the IAF starts m.bating




Tipu7 said:


> And add to that, one Mirage squadron is moving to Bholari (probably from Masroor).
> A lot of movement taking place. PAF is preparing to spoil Indian Rafale celebrations.


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## Akh1112

While those lights are consistent with Flankers, im skeptical.

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## Safriz

Hachiman said:


> While you all discussing possibilities, I am thinking the cost of induction of 2 new platforms and relevant funds which will have to be dedicated to them to mantain. I for one never believed any new 4-4.5 gen aircraft would be inducted other than increasing the platforms in our inventory till we get 5 gen jet; and the only exception to this would have been the threat from IAF forcing us to revise and go for different and new fighter jets.
> So what have we got here:
> 
> J-20
> J10
> J15
> J16
> 2&3
> 2&4
> 1&2
> Bluff/Dis-information
> Although, it is highly unlikely that Pakistan will buy or even lease 2 new platforms seeing the costs of operational them and logical too, I can only conclude that if the news is true, PAF did it so to surprise IAF and wrong their predictions. I bet IAF thought PAF will never ever induct 2 new platforms because it bring not rational or potentially possible and it makes zero sense. Surprise!


I think its option 8.

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## Zarvan

Safriz said:


> I think its option 8.


I also considered it option eight for past some time but not anymore. News is more and more looking like to be true. @Hachiman

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## Safriz

Zarvan said:


> I also considered it option eight for past some time but not anymore. News is more and more looking like to be true. @Hachiman


J-10 or any big pricetag jet from China was only to be inducted in PAF "with a Chinese engine".
This was decided in 2008 by musharraf.
Its been 12 years and Chinese still suck at mass producing a reliable jet engine.


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## Zarvan

Safriz said:


> J-10 or any big pricetag jet from China was only to be inducted in PAF "with a Chinese engine".
> This was decided in 2008 by musharraf.
> Its been 12 years and Chinese still suck at mass producing a reliable jet engine.


J 10 C is with Chinese engine and it's great engine. Also J 15 or J 16 have Chinese engine.

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## Safriz

Zarvan said:


> J 10 C is with Chinese engine and it's great engine. Also J 15 or J 16 have Chinese engine.


Last time i checked they were unable to mass produce in sufficient quantities for export.

These demonstrators are for media consumption.

Mass production is still an issue.


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## Tariq Habib Afridi

I have to submit a conference paper until 28 and there is a lot of work to be done for that. But from past 3-4 days i am unable to focus on my research and on completion of my paper.  kindly have some mercy on me and relieve me from this confusion.


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## StormBreaker

Tariq Habib Afridi said:


> I have to submit a conference paper until 28 and there is a lot of work to be done for that. But from past 3-4 days i am unable to focus on my research and on completion of my paper.  kindly have some mercy on me and relieve me from this confusion.


@PakSword Ban chahiye bhai ko

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## Tariq Habib Afridi

StormBreaker said:


> @PakSword Ban chahiye bhai ko


no no no i was joking man. I will wait for sure. but kindly do tag me when the official announcement has been made.Do remember me please

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## StormBreaker

Tariq Habib Afridi said:


> no no no i was joking man. I will wait for sure. but kindly do tag me when the official announcement has been made.Do remember me please


Ban to sirf apko focus dilanay ke liye tha

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## Tariq Habib Afridi

By the way my father is a retired Pak Airforce but he had retired some 40 years ago and then he has served in UAE airforce for 25 years. he was there on both 65 and 71 war. that is why since from the beginning i have a liking for PAF.

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## mingle

Hodor said:


> A fighter squadron to move out from *R *and shift to *M*.The squadron moving out will be replaced by a *J* squadron.
> 
> Aqalmand hazraat can easily guess..
> 
> 
> @HRK @Windjammer @khanasifm @fatman17 @Trailer23


Ha ha Yeh babe thanks



Tipu7 said:


> And add to that, one Mirage squadron is moving to Bholari (probably from Masroor).
> A lot of movement taking place. PAF is preparing to spoil Indian Rafale celebrations.


PAF should give Rafale escort all the way to Indian waters I hope they will



Tipu7 said:


> And add to that, one Mirage squadron is moving to Bholari (probably from Masroor).
> A lot of movement taking place. PAF is preparing to spoil Indian Rafale celebrations.


@Tipu with Js I believe non rose mirages gona retire?? IA end of this yr and next yr will be exciting


----------



## StormBreaker

Tariq Habib Afridi said:


> By the way my father is a retired Pak Airforce but he had retired some 40 years ago and then he has served in UAE airforce for 25 years. he was there on both 65 and 71 war. that is why since from the beginning i have a liking for PAF.


Wow,
Great !!!

If you don’t mind, And If it’s comfortable to answer,
What was your father’s role in UAEAF ? And PAF ?

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## Tariq Habib Afridi

StormBreaker said:


> Wow,
> Great !!!
> 
> If you don’t mind, And If it’s comfortable to answer,
> What was your father’s role in UAEAF ? And PAF ?


He was not an officer but he was in headquarter in 71 war and was a radar operator. and in UAE he was also there as radar operator and was also a tutor.

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## ziaulislam

Thorough Pro said:


> PAF Check-mating before the IAF starts m.bating


29 july is when rafale joins..so PAF has 6 days to official do that..



Safriz said:


> J-10 or any big pricetag jet from China was only to be inducted in PAF "with a Chinese engine".
> This was decided in 2008 by musharraf.
> Its been 12 years and Chinese still suck at mass producing a reliable jet engine.


But they dont..
Noone argues othwerwise to its traditional engine ws 10 being mass produced ..its been mass produced for 2-3 years now..do they have enough to spare for export is the question


----------



## PakFactor

I’m confused have we acquired a new jet?


----------



## Safriz

ziaulislam said:


> 29 july is when rafale joins..so PAF has 6 days to official do that..
> 
> 
> But they dont..
> Noone argues othwerwise to its traditional engine ws 10 being mass produced ..its been mass produced for 2-3 years now..do they have enough to spare for export is the question


No.
Ws-10 or any Chinese engine are not being mass produced.

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## Tipu7

mingle said:


> @Tipu with Js I believe non rose mirages gona retire?? IA end of this yr and next yr will be exciting


Mirages are with us till 2028. And yes, with time we will retire the less capable ones.

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## jupiter2007

ziaulislam said:


> 29 july is when rafale joins..so PAF has 6 days to official do that..
> 
> 
> But they dont..
> Noone argues othwerwise to its traditional engine ws 10 being mass produced ..its been mass produced for 2-3 years now..do they have enough to spare for export is the question



only rumors.....I will believe it when I see it.


----------



## ziaulislam

Safriz said:


> No.
> Ws-10 or any Chinese engine are not being mass produced.



Every expert, american senate comittee to russian engine sellers say otherwise ..except for indians who still think chinese are in stone age

You can literally see 100s of j10s and flankers flying with them..

China has been mass producing different engines since 1970s..it had issues with modern turbofan jet engines..which it has caught on to..only to see world moved on to even better engines (the f35 class engines) which china is still struggling to get (j20 engines)

But ws-10 by todays standard isnt a modern engine anymore and china has no issues building it.

If PAF acquires any chinese jet aircraft with chinese engine that would not only indicate that the ws10 is mass produced but will also point out that it is mass produced for long time not just 2-3 years as PLAAF/PLAAN requirements for ws10 were HUGE

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## Thorough Pro

Is it Raphale or rafail?



ziaulislam said:


> 29 july is when rafale joins..so PAF has 6 days to official do that..
> 
> 
> But they dont..
> Noone argues othwerwise to its traditional engine ws 10 being mass produced ..its been mass produced for 2-3 years now..do they have enough to spare for export is the question


----------



## ziaulislam

Thorough Pro said:


> Is it Raphale or rafail?


Interestingly IAF didnt opt for any air to ground delivery system for rafale YET. It would only have SCALP & meteor ..
SPICE (A2G) was to be integrated but now under emergency procurement IAF is procuring HAMMER and probably a new pod telios as well with it..

This would mean millions of dollars additional as well. HAMMER was 3 times as expensive as isreali SPICE which it self is several times more expensive than chinese or PAF own solution 

So it is already a RA-fail.

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## ziaulislam

Ironically even being several times more expensive it didnt work last year..
I havent still figured it out how can IAF be this incompetent..
But only rational explanation is either incompetence or deliberately missing the targets ..as all 5 cant be a system issue

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## nomi007

I think PAF to print a special sign on all those jets, who participated in this operation.


----------



## Pakistan Ka Beta

*AIR CHIEF WITNESSES OPERATIONAL EXERCISE AT PAF BASE QADRI 
25 JULY, 2020:* Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force visited PAF Base, Qadri at Skardu in Gilgit-Baltistan province today. The Air Chief witnessed various operational activities at the base including rapid deployment of fighter aircraft and combat support elements. He was also briefed on the ongoing infrastructure development works at the base. The Air Chief appreciated operational preparedness of the base personnel and expressed his satisfaction over the pace of developmental works. *Addressing base personnel, the Air Chief stated that PAF is fully cognizant of the geo-strategic developments in the region. He said that the aggressive military procurements by the enemy are not going unnoticed and necessary measures are in place to ensure the balance of military power in conventional domain as well. *The Air Chief assured the nation that PAF alongside its sister services is ever ready to give a befitting response to any misadventure by the adversary. Expressing concern over the Indian state terrorism and atrocities of its armed forces in Indian occupied Jammu & Kashmir (IOJ&K), the Air Chief stated that Pakistani nation unequivocally supports the freedom struggle of Kashmiris and reiterated the need for expeditious resolution of Kashmir issue in accordance with the United Nations’ resolutions.

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## The Eagle

_*This is PAF News & Discussion thread yet bombarded with rumors & what not. Please don't mind but certain thread bans will have to be enforced to at-least keep it clean for credible news/discussion only.*_

_*Regards,*_

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## The Eagle



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## TsAr

ziaulislam said:


> Interestingly IAF didnt opt for any air to ground delivery system for rafale YET. It would only have SCALP & meteor ..
> SPICE (A2G) was to be integrated but now under emergency procurement IAF is procuring HAMMER and probably a new pod telios as well with it..
> 
> This would mean millions of dollars additional as well. HAMMER was 3 times as expensive as isreali SPICE which it self is several times more expensive than chinese or PAF own solution
> 
> So it is already a RA-fail.


This is good news for us. India initially wanted 124 jets but ended up ordering only 36 that to after 13 years of loitering around. I am sure French would not allow them to easily integrate outside systems with the Rafale, and IAF would have to dish out more funds towards buying armaments. Similar thing happened when they bought Scorpene sub from France but then did not have the latest torpedoes.

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## PakFactor

ziaulislam said:


> Ironically even being several times more expensive it didnt work last year..
> I havent still figured it out how can IAF be this incompetent..
> But only rational explanation is either incompetence or deliberately missing the targets ..as all 5 cant be a system issue



They spent so much on those 36 jets alone soon with ammunition, pods etc going to cost more than an air craft carrier. The rushed and the French going to milk them good.

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## haroonn

The Eagle said:


>


I think the leftmost person is Group Captain Mushtaq, back in the days when he was OC Flying, Minhas.

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## Akh1112

Have the Karachi night flying photos been deleted? I cant find them. Im trying to get a second opinion


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## ziaulislam

PakFactor said:


> They spent so much on those 36 jets alone soon with ammunition, pods etc going to cost more than an air craft carrier. The rushed and the French going to milk them good.


They first said no to HAMMER (spice alternative) & TELIOS (pod) but now are buying that too under emergency procurement even though it costs twice that of SPICE

As rafale doesnt has any air to ground weapon ready

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## ghazi52



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## baqai

ziaulislam said:


> So it is already a RA-fail.



for us its goodie goodie, let India be one of those guys who get a new car than spend more than twice the cost of the car to rice it up


----------



## ghazi52

Which has the fastest aerodynamic structure?


----------



## ghazi52



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## blain2

Thorough Pro said:


> Is it Raphale or rafail?


Neither.

It is Dassault RAFALE and pronounced phonetically as "Dasso Rafaaal". It is also not "Rafael" which is an Israeli weapons/avionics company.

I see members here making this mistake often interchangeably using these different names.

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## Thorough Pro

Top centre mid-wing



ghazi52 said:


> Which has the fastest aerodynamic structure?



Thanks but I wasn't asking for the correct spelling




blain2 said:


> Neither.
> 
> It is Dassault RAFALE and pronounced phonetically as "Dasso Rafaaal". It is also not "Rafael" which is an Israeli weapons/avionics company.
> 
> I see members here making this mistake often interchangeably using these different names.


----------



## blain2

Thorough Pro said:


> Top centre mid-wing
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks but I wasn't asking for the correct spelling


Understood and I may have misread your post but I see this common error quite often thus wanted to point it out.

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## mingle

Tipu7 said:


> Mirages are with us till 2028. And yes, with time we will retire the less capable ones.


Thanks maybe ROSE family will stick till 2028.


----------



## Hassan Guy

https://www.airrecognition.com/inde...an-air-component-seven-left-all-for-sale.html

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## ghazi52



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## DrWatson775

https://www.dawn.com/news/1571202/military-balance-in-region-to-be-ensured-air-chief

*Military balance in region to be ensured: air chief*
Baqir Sajjad SyedUpdated 26 Jul 2020
Facebook Count
Twitter Share
 
0




The air chief witnessed various operational activities at the base, including rapid deployment of fighter aircraft and combat support elements. — Photo courtesy PAF/File
ISLAMABAD: Chief of the Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan on Saturday vowed to ensure proper military balance in the region despite India’s aggressive buying of weapons.

Addressing the Pakistan Air Force personnel at PAF Base Qadri in Skardu, Air Chief Khan said: “The aggressive military procurements by the enemy are not going unnoticed and necessary measures are in place to ensure the balance of military power in conventional domain as well.”

It was the first statement by the PAF chief on India’s weapons buying spree following its stand-off with China.

It should be recalled that Indian policymakers in the midst of the conflict gave approval for emergency procurement of defence equipment from Russia and France. Most notably, Indian Defence Minister Rajnath Singh during his visit to Russia in the last week of June requested expediting timelines of delivery of defence equipment that had already been ordered.

ARTICLE CONTINUES AFTER AD
Says PAF fully cognisant of geo-strategic developments

Indian defence ministry later on July 3 authorised purchase of 33 Russian fighter jets (21 Mig-29s and 12 Su-30 MKI), and upgrades for 50 Indian Air Force MiG-29s to augment combat preparedness. This contract is worth $2.4 billion.

Meanwhile, India is expecting delivery of first batch of 36 Rafale aircraft from France based on a 2016 contract worth $8.7bn. New Delhi is hopeful that up to six Rafale jets will reach India by the end of July. These acquisitions will improve operational preparedness of Indian Air Force (IAF) both qualitatively and quantitatively.

The IAF has indicated that Rafale jets will be armed with French HAMMER air-to-ground missile, with 60-70kms range, which is designed for targeting hardened bunkers and shelters in any type of terrain, including mountainous areas, such as Ladakh. France has reportedly agreed to ensuring provision of HAMMER missiles from existing stocks on emergency footing to meet pressing requirements of the IAF.

Pakistan has always been worried that the acquisitions made by India on the pretext of matching up with China’s weaponry could be used against it.

The air chief said PAF was fully cognisant of the geo-strategic developments in the region and was, alongside its sister services, ready to give a befitting response to any misadventure by India.

He expressed concern over Indian state terrorism and atrocities of its armed forces in Indian Occupied Jammu and Kashmir and said that Pakistan unequivocally supports the freedom struggle of Kashmiris. He reiterated the need for expeditious resolution of Kashmir issue in accordance with the United Nations’ resolutions.

The air chief witnessed various operational activities at the base, including rapid deployment of fighter aircraft and combat support elements. He was also briefed on the ongoing infrastructure development works at the base.

He appreciated operational preparedness of the base personnel and expressed his satisfaction over the pace of developmental works, the PAF’s media directorate said.

_Published in Dawn, July 26th, 2020_

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## air marshal

https://www.falcons.pk/photo/North-American-T-6G-Harvard/2863

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## nomi007

air marshal said:


> https://www.falcons.pk/photo/North-American-T-6G-Harvard/2863


where are our *Bristol Freighters*?

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## Kommandant Omi

DrWatson775 said:


> https://www.dawn.com/news/1571202/military-balance-in-region-to-be-ensured-air-chief
> 
> *Military balance in region to be ensured: air chief*
> Baqir Sajjad SyedUpdated 26 Jul 2020
> Facebook Count
> Twitter Share
> 
> 0
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The air chief witnessed various operational activities at the base, including rapid deployment of fighter aircraft and combat support elements. — Photo courtesy PAF/File
> ISLAMABAD: Chief of the Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan on Saturday vowed to ensure proper military balance in the region despite India’s aggressive buying of weapons.
> 
> Addressing the Pakistan Air Force personnel at PAF Base Qadri in Skardu, Air Chief Khan said: “The aggressive military procurements by the enemy are not going unnoticed and necessary measures are in place to ensure the balance of military power in conventional domain as well.”
> 
> It was the first statement by the PAF chief on India’s weapons buying spree following its stand-off with China.
> 
> It should be recalled that Indian policymakers in the midst of the conflict gave approval for emergency procurement of defence equipment from Russia and France. Most notably, Indian Defence Minister Rajnath Singh during his visit to Russia in the last week of June requested expediting timelines of delivery of defence equipment that had already been ordered.
> 
> ARTICLE CONTINUES AFTER AD
> Says PAF fully cognisant of geo-strategic developments
> 
> Indian defence ministry later on July 3 authorised purchase of 33 Russian fighter jets (21 Mig-29s and 12 Su-30 MKI), and upgrades for 50 Indian Air Force MiG-29s to augment combat preparedness. This contract is worth $2.4 billion.
> 
> Meanwhile, India is expecting delivery of first batch of 36 Rafale aircraft from France based on a 2016 contract worth $8.7bn. New Delhi is hopeful that up to six Rafale jets will reach India by the end of July. These acquisitions will improve operational preparedness of Indian Air Force (IAF) both qualitatively and quantitatively.
> 
> The IAF has indicated that Rafale jets will be armed with French HAMMER air-to-ground missile, with 60-70kms range, which is designed for targeting hardened bunkers and shelters in any type of terrain, including mountainous areas, such as Ladakh. France has reportedly agreed to ensuring provision of HAMMER missiles from existing stocks on emergency footing to meet pressing requirements of the IAF.
> 
> Pakistan has always been worried that the acquisitions made by India on the pretext of matching up with China’s weaponry could be used against it.
> 
> The air chief said PAF was fully cognisant of the geo-strategic developments in the region and was, alongside its sister services, ready to give a befitting response to any misadventure by India.
> 
> He expressed concern over Indian state terrorism and atrocities of its armed forces in Indian Occupied Jammu and Kashmir and said that Pakistan unequivocally supports the freedom struggle of Kashmiris. He reiterated the need for expeditious resolution of Kashmir issue in accordance with the United Nations’ resolutions.
> 
> The air chief witnessed various operational activities at the base, including rapid deployment of fighter aircraft and combat support elements. He was also briefed on the ongoing infrastructure development works at the base.
> 
> He appreciated operational preparedness of the base personnel and expressed his satisfaction over the pace of developmental works, the PAF’s media directorate said.
> 
> _Published in Dawn, July 26th, 2020_


There is definitely something huge going on. First there was the visit to skardu and deployment of jf-17s there, along with infrastructural developments, as well as the mention of India. Then there was the news of Indian airplanes near the coast, today on the headlines the air chief met with the COAS. The underlying theme being the unprecedented buildup of India's air capability through various foreign procurements both of platforms and weapon systems, with a need for Pakistan to take the necessary steps to counter these.

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## air marshal

Two Egyptian C-130H landed today at OPRN

https://falcons.pk/photo/Lockheed-C-130H-Hercules/2882







https://falcons.pk/photo/Lockheed-C-130H-Hercules/2883

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## Crystal-Clear

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1288101468525006849

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## StormBreaker

air marshal said:


> Two Egyptian C-130H landed today at OPRN
> 
> https://falcons.pk/photo/Lockheed-C-130H-Hercules/2882
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://falcons.pk/photo/Lockheed-C-130H-Hercules/2883


Still coming ?


----------



## Ultima Thule

StormBreaker said:


> Still coming ?


WHERE ??? PAKISTAN????


----------



## Tamiyah

StormBreaker said:


> Still coming ?


Discussion moved to it's respective thread. Apparently they just here for refuelling nothing else.

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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52

Bristol Freighter (1950 to 1966)

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## BHarwana



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## nomi007

ghazi52 said:


> Bristol Freighter (1950 to 1966)


where are they now?


----------



## ghazi52

nomi007 said:


> where are they now?



No idea.

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## Talon

StormBreaker said:


> Still coming ?


OPRN to act as a refueling stop for EAF aircrafts as per a new agreement with PAF.

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## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/Sherdils-Aerobatic-Team/2891

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## Bossman

nomi007 said:


> where are they now?


Some were sold to a New Zealand based air carrier.


----------



## BHarwana

Gulfshield Exercise PAF JF17 F16 Mirage

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## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/Nanchang-A-5C-Fantan/2893

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## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/Shenyang-F-6/551

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## Zarvan

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1289491813116641280
Everyone follow Pakistan Air Force Twitter account

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## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/General-Dynamics-F-16A-ADF-Fighting-Falcon/2745

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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52



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## fatman17

Eid Mubarak

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## air marshal



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## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/General-Dynamics-F-16BM-Fighting-Falcon/1086

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## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/Canadair-CL-13B-Sabre-6/961

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## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/JF-17-Thunder/2902

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## Tomcats

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1290560262940930049

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## Viper27

Issam said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1290560262940930049



Unless we are having some exercises I don't see a reason for the IL-78 to be in Turkey except for cargo duties..


----------



## Yasser76

Viper27 said:


> Unless we are having some exercises I don't see a reason for the IL-78 to be in Turkey except for cargo duties..



Lots of reasons for regular trips to Turkey. Several naval projects, Mushshak deliveries, military personnell exchanges. Not really news, likewise probably every week or more PAF planes will be in China or Saudia

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## air marshal



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## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/A-5C-Fantan/2171

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## ghazi52



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## fatman17

With the serial / construction number NAF-702 this seems to be the second JF-17 Thunder for Nigerian Air Force. 

(Image via HawkEye27/PDF) https://t.co/9OatFXFAQm

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## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/Lockheed-T-33A-Shooting-Star/1136

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## air marshal

Pakistan sends its C-130 Hercules (Reg: 4144) laden with aid for the victims of the horrific blast in Beirut. Pakistan has always taken the lead in extending its helping hand to those in need.

https://falcons.pk/photo/Lockheed-C-130E-Hercules/2924

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## Vapour

fatman17 said:


> With the serial / construction number NAF-702 this seems to be the second JF-17 Thunder for Nigerian Air Force.
> 
> (Image via HawkEye27/PDF) https://t.co/9OatFXFAQm
> View attachment 659448



https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.de...gerian-jf-17-pilots-training-in-pakistan/amp/

Any news if the NAF are looking to expand their JF 17 order, would imagine they'd at least want one squadron?


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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52

Pakistan send aid for the People of Lebanon

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## ghazi52

Today (8th August 2017) 3rd Shahadat anniversary of Wg Cdr Zeeshan Atta OC 18 Sqn. May Allah give him the highest rank in Jannah, Ameen!

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## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/Lockheed-Martin-F-16D-Fighting-Falcon/2927

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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52



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## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/Dassault-Mirage-VPA/2263

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## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/Sherdils-Aerobatic-Team/2920

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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52

Weather conditions Right Now In
PAF Sakesar Soon valley

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## m52k85

Just an update since I was doing some reading. Here is how the air-superiority (my definition is based on BVR capability, yes I know there is a lot more to it but you have to have a cutoff for analysis) balance looks like and will look like for the foreseeable future:

*1. Current Pic*:
IAF: 13 MKI, 3 Mirage, 3 Mig29 squadrons + Navy 2 Mig-29 Squadrons
Paf: 4 F-16 & 5 Jf-17 squadrons
Ratio: 19:9 squadrons (21:9 if IN included)​*2. 2021 Picture:*
IAF: Adds 2 LCA squadrons (no. 45 already stood-up with IOC MK-1s and no.18 in process with FOC MK-1s)
https://www.livefistdefence.com/202...-for-5-2-billion-lca-tejas-fighter-order.html
PAF: Adds 1 JF-17 Blk-II squadron (conversion of no.18 sharp shooters)
Ratio: 21:10 squadrons (23:10 if IN included)​*3. 2023 Picture:*
IAF: Adds 3 squadrons (1 LCA MK-1A aesa equiped and 2 FOC Rafale squadrons)
PAF: Adds 3 Jf-17 Blk3 squadrons
Ratio: 24:13 squadrons --> best ratio expected​
Beyond 2023 to the 2027 period, it is unclear but it seems IAF will atleast add 2 more LCA MK-1A squadrons, what PAF will add is anyones guess (please dont start that discussion here since its already hot on other threads).

Beyond 2027 it will be race of the India economy vis-vis more Rafales or getting another Medium weight foreign buy and India development of 5th gen vs our Azm.

As far as ground attack goes things are looking the most encouraging for us in a long time. With the retirement of all Indian Mig-27s they have only 6 squadrons of Jaguars to our 5 squadrons of Mirages. The ratio in this 'obsolete category' will continue to remain the same till their complete retirement from both sides by 2028-2030.

Incase of protracted operations it will be fair to assume that WVR only aircraft will also serve in denying enemy ground attack aircrafts, upto 2025 IAF will have 6 squadrons of Mig-21 Bisons to our 3 squadrons of F-7PGs. Also note, all Bison's are Pakistan oriented per their home base placement, but since this category is point-defense the 2:1 ratio doesn't really matter.

P.S the Bison's BVR capability has been discarded as the comments from military circles that have come out since feb last year puts that capability as a non-starter.

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## Yasser76

m52k85 said:


> Just an update since I was doing some reading. Here is how the air-superiority (my definition is based on BVR capability, yes I know there is a lot more to it but you have to have a cutoff for analysis) balance looks like and will look like for the foreseeable future:
> 
> *1. Current Pic*:
> IAF: 13 MKI, 3 Mirage, 3 Mig29 squadrons + Navy 2 Mig-29 Squadrons
> Paf: 4 F-16 & 5 Jf-17 squadrons
> Ratio: 19:9 squadrons (21:9 if IN included)​*2. 2021 Picture:*
> IAF: Adds 2 LCA squadrons (no. 45 already stood-up with IOC MK-1s and no.18 in process with FOC MK-1s)
> https://www.livefistdefence.com/202...-for-5-2-billion-lca-tejas-fighter-order.html
> PAF: Adds 1 JF-17 Blk-II squadron (conversion of no.18 sharp shooters)
> Ratio: 21:10 squadrons (23:10 if IN included)​*3. 2023 Picture:*
> IAF: Adds 3 squadrons (1 LCA MK-1A aesa equiped and 2 FOC Rafale squadrons)
> PAF: Adds 3 Jf-17 Blk3 squadrons
> Ratio: 24:13 squadrons --> best ratio expected​
> Beyond 2023 to the 2027 period, it is unclear but it seems IAF will atleast add 2 more LCA MK-1A squadrons, what PAF will add is anyones guess (please dont start that discussion here since its already hot on other threads).
> 
> Beyond 2027 it will be race of the India economy vis-vis more Rafales or getting another Medium weight foreign buy and India development of 5th gen vs our Azm.
> 
> As far as ground attack goes things are looking the most encouraging for us in a long time. With the retirement of all Indian Mig-27s they have only 6 squadrons of Jaguars to our 5 squadrons of Mirages. The ratio in this 'obsolete category' will continue to remain the same till their complete retirement from both sides by 2028-2030.
> 
> Incase of protracted operations it will be fair to assume that WVR only aircraft will also serve in denying enemy ground attack aircrafts, upto 2025 IAF will have 6 squadrons of Mig-21 Bisons to our 3 squadrons of F-7PGs. Also note, all Bison's are Pakistan oriented per their home base placement, but since this category is point-defense the 2:1 ratio doesn't really matter.
> 
> P.S the Bison's BVR capability has been discarded as the comments from military circles that have come out since feb last year puts that capability as a non-starter.



Interesting summary, the loss of 10 Jaguar/MIG-21 squadrons will hit hard. Best case scenario will be these will be replaced by 2 LCA squadrons and 1 second hand MIG-29 upgrade squadron, so deficit here of 7 squadrons.

PAF is in a predicament two as we will need to look at replacing 4 Mirage units and 3 F-7PG units (although I suspect we may retain the F-7PGs are aggressors/trainers). However over the next 10 years it is not impossible for PAC and China to churn out another 100 JF-17s and also upgrade existing Blocks. So PAF should net out at a loss of only 2 squadrons, whilst also getting a decent incremental upgrade to existing squadrons of JF-17. This is also does not take into account the possibility of getting second hand F-16s during this period.

Of course after 10 years PAF maybe in the very excellent position of inducting a 5th Gen fighter. I think just like PAF getting F-16 in early 80s this will be a game changer and it is a shock that while countries like Norway, South Korea and Israel have all got their hands on F-35, Russia and China have their own aircraft, India will be left behind. Rafale will be old tech on a 5th Gen world....

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## m52k85

Yasser76 said:


> Interesting summary, the loss of 10 Jaguar/MIG-21 squadrons will hit hard. Best case scenario will be these will be replaced by 2 LCA squadrons and 1 second hand MIG-29 upgrade squadron, so deficit here of 7 squadrons.
> 
> PAF is in a predicament two as we will need to look at replacing 4 Mirage units and 3 F-7PG units (although I suspect we may retain the F-7PGs are aggressors/trainers). However over the next 10 years it is not impossible for PAC and China to churn out another 100 JF-17s and also upgrade existing Blocks. So PAF should net out at a loss of only 2 squadrons, whilst also getting a decent incremental upgrade to existing squadrons of JF-17. This is also does not take into account the possibility of getting second hand F-16s during this period.
> 
> Of course after 10 years PAF maybe in the very excellent position of inducting a 5th Gen fighter. I think just like PAF getting F-16 in early 80s this will be a game changer and it is a shock that while countries like Norway, South Korea and Israel have all got their hands on F-35, Russia and China have their own aircraft, India will be left behind. Rafale will be old tech on a 5th Gen world....


Thanks, I should have included the emergency order of a squadron of Mig-29s as well.


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## The Raven

It's also worth remembering that the Su-30s will undergo the "super 30" upgrade, which will add a pretty large and powerful AESA among other avionic and weapon upgrades.

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## Yasser76

The Raven said:


> It's also worth remembering that the Su-30s will undergo the "super 30" upgrade, which will add a pretty large and powerful AESA among other avionic and weapon upgrades.



Yes, but 1) that is not even a signed contract yet, and going by the very slow progress of Mirage and MOG-29 upgades a timeline of signing that and setting up HAL to implement it, testing it then putting it on 270 aircraft all within 10 years is VERY optimistic.
2) IAF SU-30 Servicability rates still hover at around 50% (hence the rush for spare parts and support during China-India stand off), effectively IAF only really has 6 sqaudrons of these planes for the fight, not 11. Most fighter servicabiity rates are between 70-90%

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## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/JF-17B-Thunder/1169

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## hassan1



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## ghazi52



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## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/CASA-CN-235M-200/2936

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## NA71

A must watch interview:

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## The Raven

NA71 said:


> A must watch interview:



Interesting, Kaiser Tufail reiterated what I and many others have been saying, that it doesn't make economical sense for the PN to have its own dedicated air wing. Given the multirole nature of JF-17s, their AShMs, datalink with Erieye and ZDK-03 and IFR capability, these are more than enough to provide anti-surface coverage for the navy.

He also says in 5 years time the PAF will comprise JF-17s and Vipers only. At this stage all the focus is on JF-17 Block III, no immediate plans for J-10 or any other platform. That could change once all the Mirages and F-7s have been replaced, and depending on funds.

In response to a question if AWC has any plans for indigenous BVRAAM - "Classified - no comment"

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## Talon

Chief ready to roll in Bravo

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## PakShaheen79

*AIR CHIEF ASSESSES FLIGHT PERFORMANCE OF RECENTLY INDUCTED JF-17B (DUAL SEAT) AIRCRAFT
Aug 13, 2020*

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## air marshal

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1293848599118454784

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## ghazi52

Chief of the Air Staff Pakistan Mujahid Anwar Khan evaluate the flight performance of the recently inducted #JF17B
(Dual Seat version).

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## Tehmasib

Is it dual SD 10 launcher?

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## ghazi52

Leading from the front - Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force

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## The Eagle

Tehmasib said:


> Is it dual SD 10 launcher?



No. Dual racks for Bombs only.

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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52

Marium Mukhtiar Shaheed in K-8 trainer aircraft

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## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/Chengdu-F-7PG/124

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## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/JF-17B-Thunder/2722

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## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/JF-17-Thunder-Block-2/1492

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## ghazi52

14 April, 1948







"University Officers Training Corps" (U.O.T.C.)

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## ghazi52



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## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/JF-17-Thunder/2035

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## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/Shenyang-F-6/2939

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## Yasser76

Only PAF with such paint, midifications and markings could make an F-6 look so badass

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## RAMPAGE

How many F-7s still in service with PAF?

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## m52k85

RAMPAGE said:


> How many F-7s still in service with PAF?


3 sqds of PGs. would be around 55 i think


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## Yasser76

m52k85 said:


> 3 sqds of PGs. would be around 55 i think



These are usful. You dont need to waste Viper/JF-17 Block IIIs flying around Afghan or Iran border

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## RAMPAGE

m52k85 said:


> 3 sqds of PGs. would be around 55 i think


To be replaced by JF17 BLK3s?


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## m52k85

RAMPAGE said:


> To be replaced by JF17 BLK3s?


Yes


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## Talon

*Okay so as it has surfaced now on Social media (atleast at 1 place) so its safe to say here as well...*Sharp Shooters No. 18 sqn soon to re-equip to JF-17 and act as OCU.

It will be taking place of a certain JF sqn I mentioned few weeks ago moving out of *M.
*
@HRK @khanasifm @fatman17

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## m52k85

Hodor said:


> *Okay so as it has surfaced now on Social media (atleast at 1 place) so its safe to say here as well...*Sharp Shooters No. 18 sqn soon to re-equip to JF-17 and act as OCU.
> 
> It will be taking place of a certain JF sqn I mentioned few weeks ago moving out of *M.
> *
> @HRK @khanasifm @fatman17


link? pics?


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## denel

m52k85 said:


> Yes


Correction... F-7P will be first.. PGs have more life left plus a lot of mods;those will be around for more

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## m52k85

denel said:


> Correction... F-7P will be first.. PGs have more life left plus a lot of mods;those will be around for more


Its not a correction. Yes the F-7Ps will be replaced first, but they will be replaced by Blk-IIs. Remember an additional 12 were ordered. The Blk3s will likely exclusively replace the PGs unless some non-upgarded mirages become part of the calculus.


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## m52k85

Hodor said:


> *Okay so as it has surfaced now on Social media (atleast at 1 place) so its safe to say here as well...*Sharp Shooters No. 18 sqn soon to re-equip to JF-17 and act as OCU.
> 
> It will be taking place of a certain JF sqn I mentioned few weeks ago moving out of *M.
> *
> @HRK @khanasifm @fatman17





Hodor said:


> A fighter squadron to move out from *R *and shift to *M*.The squadron moving out will be replaced by a *J* squadron.



My interpretation would be no. 14 moving out from *M*inhas (since they were spotted at Skardu and we know Skardu is expanding). No. 18 moving to *M*inhas with new JF-17s. That means Minhas will exclusively be a OCU base with 2 JF-17 OCU squadrons. However that doesnt explain the *R* in your post since no. 18 is coming from MM Alam Base, Mianwali. I doubt something is moving out from Rafiqui.

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## denel

m52k85 said:


> Its not a correction. Yes the F-7Ps will be replaced first, but they will be replaced by Blk-IIs. Remember an additional 12 were ordered. The Blk3s will likely exclusively replace the PGs unless some non-upgarded mirages become part of the calculus.


yes, i was pointing out to your number of 55; total P/PG number is far more than quoted.

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## m52k85

denel said:


> yes, i was pointing out to your number of 55; total P/PG number is far more than quoted.


If no.18 has indeed re-equipped that would be the last of the Ps. Are you counting the un-numbered LIFT and CCS flights/squadrons?

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## Talon

m52k85 said:


> My interpretation would be no. 14 moving out from *M*inhas (since they were spotted at Skardu and we know Skardu is expanding). No. 18 moving to *M*inhas with new JF-17s. That means Minhas will exclusively be a OCU base with 2 JF-17 OCU squadrons. However that doesnt explain the *R* in your post since no. 18 is coming from MM Alam Base, Mianwali. I doubt something is moving out from Rafiqui.


 This might help you understand better :

A squadron to move out from *R *and shift to *M.*The squadron moving out of *R *to be replaced by a squadron from *M.*The squadron moving out of *M *to be replaced by Sharp Shooters (I would put M here as well but that would cause too much confusion) 


You are correct on many points but not on all.

Dont worry you'll understand everything when official announcements are made.

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## Talon

m52k85 said:


> If no.18 has indeed re-equipped that would be the last of the Ps. Are you counting the un-numbered LIFT and CCS flights/squadrons?


CCS might be hosting last of F7 courses also I think Shooter squadron (not Sharp Shooters) will still keep flying F7Ps

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## m52k85

Hodor said:


> This might help you understand better :
> 
> A squadron to move out from *R *and shift to *M.*The squadron moving out of *R *to be replaced by a squadron from *M.*The squadron moving out of *M *to be replaced by Sharp Shooters (I would put M here as well but that would cause too much confusion)
> 
> 
> You are correct on many points but not on all.
> 
> Dont worry you'll understand everything when official announcements are made.


Thanks Mianwali, Minhas, Masroor so many *M*s but only one *R*afiqui. I'll go ahead and indulge with the latest clue, its turning out to be a good exercise in code breaking 

"A squadron to move out from *R *and shift to *M.*"
Mirage squadron from *R*afique to *M*asroor. (will make room for a previously missing AS element at Rafiqui and will mean JFs have another home base)

"The squadron moving out of *R *to be replaced by a squadron from *M*"
Mirage squadron moving out of *R*afique replaced by no.14 from *M*inhas

"The squadron moving out of *M *to be replaced by Sharp Shooters (I would put M here as well but that would cause too much confusion)":
no.14 moving out frm *M*inhas replaced by No. 18 Sharpshooters from *M*ianwali

So obviously I was wrong about no.14 going to Skardu and nothing moving out from Rafiqui.

What will be interesting is if as @Tipu7 rumored, a mirage squadron is also simultaneously converted to JF. Of the 110 As and 8 Bs accepted and available at PAF the numbers are certainly there.

P.S. please dont feel you have to respond if that means giving out too much info, Im merely documenting my deductive skills to check against when things become public.

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## ziaulislam

Hodor said:


> This might help you understand better :
> 
> A squadron to move out from *R *and shift to *M.*The squadron moving out of *R *to be replaced by a squadron from *M.*The squadron moving out of *M *to be replaced by Sharp Shooters (I would put M here as well but that would cause too much confusion)
> 
> 
> You are correct on many points but not on all.
> 
> Dont worry you'll understand everything when official announcements are made.



Why the crpyptic message 
I m old

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## ghazi52

New PAC JF-17A Block 2 undergoing aerial refuelling tests from a Pakistan Air Force Illyushin Il-78MP tanker |

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## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/AgustaWestland-AW139/2947

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## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/JF-17-Thunder/2755

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## ghazi52



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## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/Gulfstream-G450/2764

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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52

DG ISPR
@OfficialDGISPR

Today we remember supreme sacrifice of Pilot officer Rashid Minhas Shaheed (Nishan-e -Haider) in the line of duty. Pilot officer Rashid Minhas lived up to great traditions of Pakistan Air Force serving the motherland. #OurMartyrsOurHeroes

3:29 PM · Aug 19, 2020·

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## ghazi52

Salute...................

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## air marshal



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## air marshal



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## Windjammer

Group Captain Hussaini's Masterpiece Depicting 27th Feb. 1999 Airbattle.

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## Yasser76

Windjammer said:


> Group Captain Hussaini's Masterpiece Depicting 27th Feb. 1999 Airbattle.
> 
> View attachment 662384



Wah bhai wah!


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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52



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## air marshal



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## ghazi52



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## mingle

ghazi52 said:


>


Samungli

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## Windjammer



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## Invicta

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 662622
> 
> 
> View attachment 662623



Would you mind sharing your source for these images, need some high quality images for my desktop background.


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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52



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## air marshal



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## HAIDER



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## air marshal



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## air marshal



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## air marshal



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## air marshal



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## air marshal



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## air marshal



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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52



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## Talon

Ghazis have now moved from Rafiqui to Masroor and will be permanently deployed there..

Photo : Syed Zohaib Facebook

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## wasileo80

Hodor said:


> This might help you understand better :
> 
> A squadron to move out from *R *and shift to *M.*The squadron moving out of *R *to be replaced by a squadron from *M.*The squadron moving out of *M *to be replaced by Sharp Shooters (I would put M here as well but that would cause too much confusion)
> 
> 
> You are correct on many points but not on all.
> 
> Dont worry you'll understand everything when official announcements are made.


Now its more confused, as M stands for many like Minhas, Masroor, Mushef, MM Alam and etc. and even a new M is coming up in form of Muri.......
You people have created alot of suspense and ambiguity.

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## Talon

wasileo80 said:


> Now its more confused, as M stands for many like Minhas, Masroor, Mushef, MM Alam and etc. and even a new M is coming up in form of Muri.......
> You people have created alot of suspense and ambiguity.


The first part "sqn to move from R to M" was Ghazis moving out from Rafiqui to Masroor.

The transfer of the squadron (on papers) happened more than a month ago and actual movement happened few days ago.

All the events I mentioned will follow gradually

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## wasileo80

Hodor said:


> This might help you understand better :
> 
> A squadron to move out from *R *and shift to *M.*The squadron moving out of *R *to be replaced by a squadron from *M.*The squadron moving out of *M *to be replaced by Sharp Shooters (I would put M here as well but that would cause too much confusion)
> 
> 
> You are correct on many points but not on all.
> 
> Dont worry you'll understand everything when official announcements are made.


So the correct order would be like this:


A Squadron will move out from *Rafiqui *and will be shifted to *Masroor*. 
The Squadron which moved out from *Rafiqui *to be replace by a squadron from *Minhas*.
And lastly, The moved out squadron from *Minhas* will be replaced by *Sharp Shooters* from *MM Alam*.
I hope this would be the nearest.

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## wasileo80

Windjammer said:


> Group Captain Hussaini's Masterpiece Depicting 27th Feb. 1999 Airbattle.
> 
> View attachment 662384


2019 Air battle boss.


----------



## wasileo80

Hodor said:


> The first part "sqn to move from R to M" was Ghazis moving out from Rafiqui to Masroor.
> 
> The transfer of the squadron (on papers) happened more than a month ago and actual movement happened few days ago.
> 
> All the events I mentioned will follow gradually


Is there any possibility that the equipment of Ghazis will be replaced by some Js at Masroor????


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## air marshal



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## air marshal



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## PakShaheen79

PAF's Centre of ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE AND COMPUTING has been inaugurated by ACM Mujahid Anwar Khan. It's part of project AZM I think.https://youtu.be/zSCMvG03WIc

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## Pakistan Ka Beta

View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1298896893590765573

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## air marshal



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## air marshal




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## fatman17

Nigerian Air Force might end up with 2x Squadrons of JF-17 Thunder fighters, around 40x units. 3 aircraft will be delivered to NAF this year.

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## fatman17

There is a thread called "just a nice pic" , upload your pics there please. This is a news and discussion thread. Thanks

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## khanasifm

fatman17 said:


> Nigerian Air Force might end up with 2x Squadrons of JF-17 Thunder fighters, around 40x units. 3 aircraft will be delivered to NAF this year.



Is this guess work or based on some info


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## khanasifm

What happened to the next sqn conversion official ceremony ?


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## fatman17

Media report, make your own conclusion. Buying 3 aircraft doesn't seem to make any sense


khanasifm said:


> Is this guess work or based on some info

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## Signalian

Hodor said:


> The first part "sqn to move from R to M" was Ghazis moving out from Rafiqui to Masroor.
> 
> The transfer of the squadron (on papers) happened more than a month ago and actual movement happened few days ago.
> 
> All the events I mentioned will follow gradually


Is it possible for you to deduce which IAF squadrons will be deployed against Pakistan in an event of war from IAF's Orbat and what roles will those squadrons potentially be serving ?

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## air marshal



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## Aryeih Leib

How come there's nothing on pdf about this ?


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## Chak Bamu

Aryeih Leib said:


> How come there's nothing on pdf about this ?


Waste of time.

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## Aryeih Leib

Chak Bamu said:


> Waste of time.


So this vedio peddling wrong information?


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## fatman17

No comments. ....

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## GriffinsRule

Aryeih Leib said:


> So this vedio peddling wrong information?


Yes, old video and pics.

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## Aryeih Leib

GriffinsRule said:


> Yes, old video and pics.


Blk 3 is already in pakistan?


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## Pakistan Ka Beta

PAF Facebook and Instagram Accounts are now verified ( Blue Badge / Blue Tick )





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=725360291348486





        View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram

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## air marshal

*Egyptian Lockheed C-130H Hercules, Reg: 1291 landed today at Nur Khan*

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## xyx007

When you have tawakal on Allah you beat anything . 
NO. 8 SQUADRON'S "MISSION IMPOSSIBLE" SUCCEEDS
1500 HOURS - 30 MAY 1995

Flying a few feet above the Arabian Sea, the two Mirage pilots are impressed by the awesome silhouette of the nuclear-powered Abraham Lincoln as the carrier looms gradually above the sea curvature, dead on the nose. The mission: To penetrate successfully the Carrier Task Force's early warning and perimeter defences and, to deliver a simulated Exocet guided missile attack on "the world's largest warship". The memorable sortie was flown during "Inspired Alert" - a Pakistan-US joint exercise. O.C. No. 8 Squadron, strictly following the ground rules, planned and led a simultaneous multidirectional attack profile against CVN-72, in an attempt to overload its defence. As two of the three Mirage pairs turned away, the lead Mirage carried out a simulated Exocet "launch" from several miles away, without meeting any of the ship's fighters. The Squadron Commander and his wingman later did a friendly fly by at the carrier's side, perhaps just as surprised as the Lincoln's crews, at the missed interception.

Wing Commander Asim Suleiman Leader and O.C. No 8 Squadron
Flight Lieutenant Ahmed Hassan Wingman

Amerki never forget this defeat from ours shaheen.

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## Windjammer



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## GriffinsRule

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 665268
> View attachment 665269


A Bald Eagle in Pakistan lol

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## air marshal

GriffinsRule said:


> A Bald Eagle in Pakistan lol


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## Chak Bamu

xyx007 said:


> Amerki never forget this defeat from ours shaheen.



It was an exercise, not a contest. Please correct your spellings & grammar while you reconsider your words.

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## air marshal

*SEPTEMBER 2020*

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## Umair Nawaz

Bringing academia into industry must be replicated into other branches of Armed forces defence manufacturing also.

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## air marshal



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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52



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## mingle

ghazi52 said:


> View attachment 666192


Old 6ka??


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## Windjammer

* Ready To Pounce Tigers in Skardu.*

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## air marshal



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## ghazi52



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## air marshal



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## ghazi52

Run … it's a F-104 (3rd September 1965)

Sqn. Ldr Brijpal Singh Sikand, Commander of an Indian fighter squadron, surrenders to a PAF F-104 in combat.
The F-104 was flown by Flight Lieutenant Hakimullah who became the air chief two decades later. Sikand was taken prisoner and later rose to be an IAF Air Marshal.
This encounter was the most unusual event of the 1965 Air War.

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## ghazi52

.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1301584027397361667

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## Ghessan

ghazi52 said:


> .
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1301584027397361667



are they going to reveal some more stuff on 27 Feb?


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## fatman17

Happy anniversary: Today, 17 years ago on 25. August 2003, the first FC-1 prototype no. 01 performed its succesful maiden flight.

(Image via @航空工业 from Weibo) https://t.co/yGdCvUcIv2

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## Pakistan Ka Beta

View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram


        View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram


        View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram

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## Pakistan Ka Beta

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2717951948463347


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## fatman17

7th September 
Air Force Day

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## Ghessan

Pakistan Ka Beta said:


> View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram
> 
> 
> View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram
> 
> 
> View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram



what time will it tele-cast?


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## PakShaheen79

Ghessan said:


> what time will it tele-cast?


Today, on 7th September 2020 at 7 PM PST. On all leading channels. Will be uploaded on PAF's media channel as well.

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## ghazi52

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=3449861798404162

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## ghazi52

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1022763168183214

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## HRK

Probably first appearance of Azam NGF design in any official video of PAF
@Deino , @Windjammer ,@Quwa ,@Bilal Khan (Quwa) ,@Bilal Khan 777 ,@The Eagle and others ..... You people might find it interesting

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## Akh1112

HRK said:


> Probably first appearance of Azam NGF design in any official video of PAF
> @Deino , @Windjammer ,@Quwa ,@Bilal Khan (Quwa) ,@Bilal Khan 777 ,@The Eagle and others ..... You people might find it interesting
> View attachment 667731
> View attachment 667732
> View attachment 667733
> View attachment 667734
> View attachment 667735
> View attachment 667736


source????????


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## HRK

Akh1112 said:


> source????????


Video of PAF official ceremony to celbrate Air Force day 7th Sep, 2020 and posted at PAF official YouTube channel

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## Akh1112

HRK said:


> Video of PAF official ceremony to celbrate Air Force day 7th Sep, 2020 and posted at PAF official YouTube channel




you seen that missile in the Video too? I wonder what thats for.

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## HRK

Akh1112 said:


> you seen that missile in the Video too? I wonder what thats for.


Probably the same supersonic missile which was mention in one of the MODP reports


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## LKJ86



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## Akh1112

HRK said:


> Probably the same supersonic missile which was mention in one of the MODP reports




That was for the Navy?


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## Thorough Pro

This is epic .............. I guess IAF now takes oath from all new pilots to never drink tea if they ever get shot down



ghazi52 said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1022763168183214

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## mingle

HRK said:


> Probably first appearance of Azam NGF design in any official video of PAF
> @Deino , @Windjammer ,@Quwa ,@Bilal Khan (Quwa) ,@Bilal Khan 777 ,@The Eagle and others ..... You people might find it interesting
> View attachment 667731
> View attachment 667732
> View attachment 667733
> View attachment 667734
> View attachment 667735
> View attachment 667736


Looks like Yf23

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## ghazi52

A memorable photo of Late Air Cdre Saad Hatmi standing in front of IAF Gnat, captured in 1965 which is still present in PAF museum as a war trophy. Saad Akhtar Hatmi flew Gnat from Pusrur to Sargodha.

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## ghazi52

No.19 Squadron (Sherdils) pilots after the Pathankot strike. 

Standing L-R:Arshad Choudhry,Sajjad Haider,Dilawar,Khalid. Sitting L-R:Abbas Khattak,M Akber,Mazhar Abbas,Ghani Akber.Four SJs. 


Smiling from the cockpit is Late Arshad Sami Khan SJ,the man who flew the highest number of missions during 65.Another SJ.

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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52



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## The Eagle

Tair-Lahoti said:


> would love to have some discussion by seniors & aviation design experts.....
> View attachment 667979



We do have dedicated Azm thread for such discussion. Please join.

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## Pakistan Ka Beta

View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1302914425062596613


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## nomi007



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## Ali_Baba

Good to see all officals wearing masks. It sets a good example to the people!

Congrats Nourman Ali Khan. Happy hunting !!!!


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## fatman17

Some interesting news on the Nigerian Air Forces' JF-17N Thunders: So for now we have NAF-722, NAF-721 and NAF-720 ... but also NAF-702!

But I thought Nigeria ordered only 3 JF-17Ns so far?[emoji848]

(Images via devil thunder 302, JamD and Windjammer/PDF) https://t.co/8swopmrv7V

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## KaiserX

From being a so called "Mig-21 Clone" to shooting down Mig-21s and Su-30s

Great job PAF!

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## Ghost 125

HRK said:


> The BIGGEST surprise of this pic is not NAF-722 but Italian trainer and attack M-346 FA jet in the background, in PAC Kamra premises ....
> 
> View attachment 668239
> 
> 
> M-346FA
> 
> View attachment 668247
> 
> 
> View attachment 668241
> 
> 
> @Tipu7 ,@Bilal Khan (Quwa) , @Windjammer .....


it isnt....its another JF 17..see the landing gear and hinges under nose cone.


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## Tipu7

Its Bravo till officially proven otherwise...


HRK said:


> The BIGGEST surprise of this pic is not NAF-722 but Italian trainer and attack M-346 FA jet in the background, in PAC Kamra premises ....
> 
> View attachment 668239
> 
> 
> M-346FA
> 
> View attachment 668247
> 
> 
> View attachment 668241
> 
> 
> @Tipu7 ,@Bilal Khan (Quwa) , @Windjammer .....


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## devil thunder 302

HRK said:


> The BIGGEST surprise of this pic is not NAF-722 but Italian trainer and attack M-346 FA jet in the background, in PAC Kamra premises ....
> 
> View attachment 668239
> 
> 
> M-346FA
> 
> View attachment 668247
> 
> 
> View attachment 668241
> 
> 
> @Tipu7 ,@Bilal Khan (Quwa) , @Windjammer .....


nope its jf 17b see tha landing gears dont even match and tha panels on rear landing gear italian ac does not have those


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## faq

Hi there,

I'm trying to find information on Group Captain Zaheer H. Zaidi. He served in the PAF during the 1980's and understand he passed away some time ago after retiring from the PAF.

I am looking for biographical information about him.

I'm unable to obtain copies of Shaheen, the quarterly PAF journal, which would have likely published an obituary.

If anyone knew Zaheer Zaidi and his family or they have back issues of Shaheen or any other publication that did have an obituary, that would be highly appreciated.

Sincerely,

Faisal A. Qureshi


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## HRK

Ghost 125 said:


> it isnt....its another JF 17..see the landing gear and hinges under nose cone.





Tipu7 said:


> Its Bravo till officially proven otherwise...





devil thunder 302 said:


> nope its jf 17b see tha landing gears dont even match and tha panels on rear landing gear italian ac does not have those


but nose cone .... does not match with Bravo .... ???

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## HRK

Ghost 125 said:


> it isnt....its another JF 17..see the landing gear and hinges under nose cone.





Tipu7 said:


> Its Bravo till officially proven otherwise...





devil thunder 302 said:


> nope its jf 17b see tha landing gears dont even match and tha panels on rear landing gear italian ac does not have those


agreed its not M-346 as intakes are also different

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## Viper27

Some senior members had said a few weeks ago that Noman Ali Khan was in the US with a group of other PAF pilots. Since he's back now..is there any update on the reasons why he was there?

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## devil thunder 302

The Eagle said:


> We do have dedicated Azm thread for such discussion. Please join.





HRK said:


> but nose cone .... does not match with Bravo .... ???


bro nose cone is looking different due to that shert its reflection is causing doubt but its 💯 percent jf17b

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## Clairvoyant

Viper27 said:


> Some senior members had said a few weeks ago that Noman Ali Khan was in the US with a group of other PAF pilots. Since he's back now..is there any update on the reasons why he was there?



Yes he was there for a course, can't say anything beyond that.

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## ghazi52

Faisal Base, Drigh Road Karachi in 1926:

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## baqai

Clairvoyant said:


> Yes he was there for a course, can't say anything beyond that.



changing blocks?

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## Pakistan Ka Beta

View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram






__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2399379650369140

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## The Eagle

Please don't derail thread as such with low quality post and wish list. One thread ban issued.

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## fatman17

Rafale’s Impact on IAF’s Air Power Capabilities

September 10, 2020 

Image Source: nationalinterest.org
Air Cdre Kaiser Tufail (Retd)

Quite clearly, the inadequacy of IAF’s Su-30MKI and MiG-29 twin-engine fighters in the air superiority role led to the decision to acquire the Rafale, ostensibly a more modern and capable multi-role fighter. While both Russian fighters are highly maneuverable in a visual dogfight, as evidenced in several IAF exercises with RAF Typhoons and USAF F-15s and F-16s, they seem to have shortcomings in network-centric, Beyond Visual Range (BVR) combat. This was noticed during the 27 February 2019 skirmish with PAF F-16s, when a pair of Su-30s failed to establish data link and were of no mutual support to each other. The capabilities of the much-touted N011M ‘Bars’ airborne intercept radar are also suspect as the patrolling Su-30s were unable to launch even a single radar-guided R-77 BVR missiles against two dozen PAF fighters milling in the area on 27 February. While a definitive conclusion about the shortcomings of the Su-30 fire-control radar and missiles cannot be made on the basis of a single engagement, it is clear that they are not at par with the PAF F-16/AMRAAM combo. The IAF was aware of these limitations of the Russian fighters, which is why it had initiated measures for the acquisition of Western multi-role combat aircraft instead of more Su-30s, as far back as 2012.

IAF’s choice fell on the French Rafale, which is, indeed, a formidable multi-role fighter with long range and endurance, along with a sizeable payload in the class of the Su-30, areas that single-engine fighters like the F-16A/B and JF-17 cannot compete in. With a powerful radar and the long-range, radar-guided Meteor BVR missile, it comes at a cost of $120 million apiece. Dollar for dollar, PAF can acquire four JF-17 Blk-III for the cost of one Rafale, thus more than offsetting the latter’s payload capabilities, at least. The range of the Rafale’s Meteor missile claimed by the manufacturer (MBDA) to be 100+ km led the Indian Prime Minister to ruefully state that, “if we had the Rafale, results would have been different [on 27 February].”

Mr. Modi has apparently not yet been briefed by his Air Staff about the JF-17’s upcoming PL-15 BVR missile guided by the new AESA radar, which beats the Rafale’s ramjet-powered Meteor by several tens of kilometers. It is manifest that long range BVR combat will take precedence over close combat in any future conflict, and enemy aircraft will be shot out of the skies while remaining well inside their own territory.

While we are at it, it may be worthwhile to have a cursory line comparison of the Rafale, F-16A and JF-17 in one-on-one visual air combat.

All three aircraft have a ‘clean’ configuration Thrust-to-Weight Ratio of 1:1 and can climb and accelerate equally well. In a turning fight, Aspect Ratio and Wing Loading are critical parameters. The JF-17 and F-16A enjoy better Aspect Ratios of 3.7 each, compared to the Rafale which stands at 2.6. A better Aspect Ratio (square of wing span to wing area) implies better aerodynamic efficiency due to less induced drag during turning. As for Wing Loading, or the weight of the aircraft per unit area, the lesser the better. The Rafale has a slight edge, having 68 lbs/sq ft compared to the JF-17 and F-16A, both of which have Wing Loadings of 77 lbs/sq ft. A lightly loaded wing helps in a tighter turn, though in case of the Rafale, this advantage is overcome by greater induced drag due its lower Aspect Ratio. In sum, all three fighters are at par, more or less, in a turning fight.

Induction of the Rafale in IAF has created considerable media interest, and the impression has been created that with immediate effect, IAF will rule the Indian skies. It must, however, be remembered that it will be at least two years before the Rafale achieves anything close to Full Operational Capability. PAF, on the other hand, has been flying F-16s for 37 years, including hot scenarios during the Afghan War, in local counter-insurgency operations, and the latest Operation ‘Swift Retort,’ downing half a dozen enemy fighters in these operations. The JF-17 has been fully operational for over a decade, and is expected to replace the legacy fighters over the next five years. These combat-proven PAF fighters are fully integrated with the air defence system, and are mutually data-linked, alongside all AEW and ground sensors. Such capabilities are not achieved overnight, and it will be several years before the Rafales can be considered a threat in any real sense.

Any immediate impact of the Rafale on IAF’s air power capabilities is, thus, simply over-hyped. This inference, however, must not be dealt with lightly, as there is a distinct possibility of the Indian Prime Minister using the Rafale for a false-flag operation in a surreptitious manner, to prove his point that, “with the Rafale, the results would have been different,” from those of 27 February 2019.

Air Cdre Kaiser Tufail (Retired) is a former fighter pilot and a writer on military affairs.

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## PakShaheen79

PAF Counter Terrorism Ops (Documentary)

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## Clairvoyant

PakShaheen79 said:


> PAF Counter Terrorism Ops (Documentary)



They have used footage from Apache helicopter gun strikes in Afghanistan, quite shocking to be honest. Wasn't expecting that in an official video,I bet they would have reels of Sniper pod footage from the strikes in FATA.

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## Clairvoyant

Apache 30mm gun strike on Taliban in Afghanistan.






Footage just before a Hellfire strike.

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## ghazi52

*Pakistan Air Force Falcons in 1955
Photo Courtesy : Natasha Bukhari*

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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52



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## syed_yusuf

what plane is this is red square ...


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## PakFactor

syed_yusuf said:


> View attachment 669271
> 
> 
> what plane is this is red square ...



JF-17B


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## syed_yusuf

PakFactor said:


> JF-17B


then why is it so low in profile ... it seems still unassembled m346


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## Tamiyah

Well it looks like JF-17B to me.


syed_yusuf said:


> then why is it so low in profile ... it seems still unassembled m346


----------



## Meejee

syed_yusuf said:


> View attachment 669271
> 
> 
> what plane is this is red square ...



JF-17B. Its looking short because its got its canopy open.


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## ghazi52

All brave men of substance who delivered beyond the call of duty !

AIr Marshal Nur Khan Awan HJ, An ultimate Legendary C-in C, Icon, Leader & A Fearless Commander who led from the front amongst his fighter boys ! with Sqn Ldr Nosy Haider SJ and Flt Lt Shabbir Syed SJ. in 1960's 

Nosey Hyder and his boys destroyed 9 mig 21 at pathankot strike on the ground. Shabbir Hussain Syed moved up to the rank of AVM.

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## ghazi52

L to R : F/L T Gotting, S/L FS Hussain, F/O F Isaacs. UK-Pakistan Ferry Flight in May 1952

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## ghazi52

Legendary 9 Squadron Griffins of Pakistan Air Force at Sargodha in 1965

L-R Standing: Amanullah, Salim Sandal, Arif Manzoor, Rashid Bhatti, Mushtaq Alam, Abbas Mirza

L-R Sitting: Abbassi, Farooq Umar, Mervyn L. Middlecoat, Hakimullah, Ishaq, Aftab Alam

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## Pakistan Ka Beta

Commission in PAF in Medical Branch


        View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram

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## faq

faq said:


> Hi there,
> 
> I'm trying to find information on Group Captain Zaheer H. Zaidi. He served in the PAF during the 1980's and understand he passed away some time ago after retiring from the PAF.
> 
> I am looking for biographical information about him.
> 
> I'm unable to obtain copies of Shaheen, the quarterly PAF journal, which would have likely published an obituary.
> 
> If anyone knew Zaheer Zaidi and his family or they have back issues of Shaheen or any other publication that did have an obituary, that would be highly appreciated.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Faisal A. Qureshi



just reposting this in the hope that someone can help. I can be reached via DM's here or at faq@protonmail.com .

f.


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## nomi007

We never forget our great heroes. 
*AIR CDRE ABDUS SATTAR ALVI , SI (M) ,SJ | PAF DOCUMENTARY |




*

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## The Eagle

faq said:


> I just had my post asking for information on Akram Awan deleted because it was:
> 
> "Thread based upon irrelevant discussion".
> 
> Would the relevant moderator responsible care to discuss why this is the case?
> 
> Best,
> 
> Faisal A. Qureshi



You cannot just create a thread merely to ask information on certain officers as such, which is already not available in public domain. Op Sec & confidentiality will be maintained. Please avoid creating threads as such.

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## faq

The Eagle said:


> You cannot just create a thread merely to ask information on certain officers as such, which is already not available in public domain. Op Sec & confidentiality will be maintained. Please avoid creating threads as such.



My original post did not violate any forum rules and I certainly don't see how asking this question justifies deletion. 

Given the case was being investigated 30 years ago and most Pakistan print media from that period is still offline, how does one find out more unless it's by posting in a forum such as this?

Respectfully,

Faisal A. Qureshi


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## The Eagle

faq said:


> My original post did not violate any forum rules and I certainly don't see how asking this question justifies deletion.
> 
> Given the case was being investigated 30 years ago and most Pakistan print media from that period is still offline, how does one find out more unless it's by posting in a forum such as this?
> 
> Respectfully,
> 
> Faisal A. Qureshi



If you are so keen to drag on this instead of contacting GHQ for redressal, I am afraid that I will have to restrict your access to these threads that areal supposed to discuss news only. We do have dedicated thread for questions related to military in section or you can use this thread but inquiries as such are not appreciated tompost a separate thread.

Kindest regards,

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## faq

The Eagle said:


> If you are so keen to drag on this instead of contacting GHQ for redressal, I am afraid that I will have to restrict your access to these threads that areal supposed to discuss news only. We do have dedicated thread for questions related to military in section or you can use this thread but inquiries as such are not appreciated tompost a separate thread.
> 
> Kindest regards,



I'm sorry but I'm unaware of what GHQ is and why would I want to contact them for redressal? I'm not from a military background.

If you can point out the right thread to put my enquiries, that would be appreciated.

Best regards,

Faisal A. Qureshi

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## HRK

faq said:


> I'm sorry but I'm unaware of what GHQ is and why I would want to contact them for redressal. I'm not from any military background.


brother I think you are getting it all wrong by GHQ [link] mean an special subsection where you can raise your objection directly to the forum administrator .....

secondly we have a certain decorum at the forum which mean all the members are required to respect it and follow it additionally your post about which you were enquiring was seeking *personal information of an ex-servicemen in an open forum* I hope you do understand why nobody bothered to reply your post, here the issue is nobody knows who are you and what is your purpose to seek this information, therefore even if someone knows about that individual would not reply you.

Spend some time here at this forum you will acquaintance with the forum decorum and its members

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## faq

HRK said:


> brother I think you are getting it all wrong by GHQ [link] mean an special subsection where you can raise your objection directly to the forum administrator .....
> 
> secondly we have a certain decorum at the forum which mean all the members are required to respect it and follow it additionally your post about which you were enquiring was seeking *personal information of an ex-servicemen in an open forum* I hope you do understand why nobody bothered to reply your post, here the issue is nobody knows who are you and what is your purpose to seek this information, therefore even if someone knows about that individual would not reply you.
> 
> Spend some time here at this forum you will acquaintance with the forum decorum and its members




Hi there,

Thanks very much for that clarification and note on decorum. Useful to know. Apologies for any offence. Completely unintended.

I'll give a bit more information about myself and the reason for the requests soon.

Best,

Faisal A. Qureshi

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## Tomcats

PAF C-130 spotted flying over France and going over the Atlantic. https://www.radarbox.com/data/registration/4189/1461646357

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## Tomcats

Issam said:


> PAF C-130 spotted flying over France and going over the Atlantic. https://www.radarbox.com/data/registration/4189/1461646357


Ended up at Baltimore after a *possible* stopover in France. https://www.radarbox.com/data/registration/4189/1462314630

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## PDF

*The F-22 Raptor almost had a stealth bomber sibling *

Miguel Ortiz

The night sky is an inky black and the soldiers on the ground barely give it a passing glance. Their radar scopes are clear; no enemies inbound. The first sign that they receive of the American strike is the bombs falling on key strategic targets. Precision small-diameter bombs fall within inches of substations, radar sites, bunkers and anti-aircraft batteries.
The runway is also cratered by American bombs, but a few fighter planes manage to scramble into the air. Their pilots frantically check their radar for the unseen attackers—nothing. Suddenly, a volley of radar-guided AIM-120C AMRAAMs tears through the formation of fighters and erupts in an airborne spectacle of fire and twisted metal. The light from the fireball reflects the faintest glint of light on the visors of the American pilots as they turn their F-22 Raptors and FB-22 Strike Raptors for home.

Following the success of their F-22 Raptor stealth fighter, Lockheed Martin conducted a study in 2001 to determine the feasibility of developing a bomber platform from it. While the F-22 was designed as an air superiority fighter, it still maintained a degree of ground attack ability which Lockheed Martin hoped to exploit. If they could leverage the design and capabilities of the existing airframe, the cost of developing the new bomber would be significantly reduced.








_The F-22 Raptor air superiority fighter (Photo by Lockheed Martin)_

Lockheed Martin developed a number of bomber concepts based on the F-22. Much of the Raptor's avionics were retained and structural redesigns were focused on the fuselage and wings. An initial concept aimed to increase payload capacity by lengthening and widening the fuselage. However, this came with a penalty of a 25-30% increase in weight, materials and development costs. Instead, further concepts retained the same fuselage as the F-22 and bore elongated delta shape wings which allowed the concept bomber to carry more fuel and wing-mounted weapons.
With the new wings, the FB-22 Strike Raptor would have been able to carry up to 30-35 250-pound GBU-39 small diameter precision-guided bombs versus the F-22 Raptor's payload capacity of eight such bombs. Unlike the F-22, the FB-22 would also have been able to carry bombs weighing up to 5,000 pounds. With weapons stored internally, the FB-22 would have had a maximum combat load of 15,000 pounds. With additional weapons mounted on the wings, the FB-22 would have lost some of its stealth capability but carry up to 30,000 pounds of weapons.
Its increased fuel capacity gave the Strike Raptor a range of 1,600 miles, nearly triple the F-22's range of 600 miles, and could have been extended further with the addition of external fuel tanks. With this increased range, the FB-22 would have replaced the Air Force's F-15E Strike Eagle and taken over some of the missions of the B-1 Lancer and B-2 Spirit bombers. In October 2002, _Air Force Magazine_ reported that the FB-22 would have a combat effectiveness comparable to a B-2 Spirit armed with 2,000-pound bombs.
In order to power this larger airframe, the F-22's Pratt & Whitney F119-PW-100 engines would have been replaced with the Pratt & Whitney F135s which now power the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II. Though early concepts featured no tailplanes, later concepts incorporated twin tailplanes. Additionally, since the Strike Raptor was meant to complement the F-22 with its ground-attack capability, dogfighting capability was not a priority and the thrust vectoring technology of the F-22 was omitted from the FB-22 concept. According to _Flight International_ magazine, the FB-22 would have had a top speed of Mach 1.92.






_The F-35's F135 engine, developed from the F-22's F119, gives it enough thrust to perform short takeoffs and vertical landings. The FB-22 would have had two of these engines. (Photo by Lockheed Martin)_

In February 2003, Secretary of the Air Force James Roche reported to the House Armed Services Committee that he envisioned a strike force of 150 FB-22s, along with 60 B-1s, 21 B-2s, and 381 F-22s. Following this vision, in 2004, Lockheed Martin officially presented the FB-22 Strike Raptor concept to the Air Force. The concept met the Air Force requirement for a potential strategic bomber as an interim solution and would be operational by 2018.
Additionally, since it was developed from the existing F-22, the cost of fully developing the FB-22 was estimated to be 75% less than the cost of developing an entirely new bomber. _Air Force Magazine_ also reported that the FB-22's stealth capabilities had been increased, adding externally mounted detachable and faceted weapons pods that could carry weapons on the wings without sacrificing stealth.






_What might have been (Credit Bandai Namco Entertainment)_

Unfortunately, following the 2006 Quadrennial Defense Review, the FB-22 Strike Raptor project was cancelled. The DoD wanted a bomber with greater range and the Strike Raptor would be developed no further. However, disappointed aviation fans still have the opportunity to fly the FB-22 and experience the "next-generation stealth bomber that could have been" in the popular hybrid arcade-style flight simulator _Ace Combat_. The FB-22 is featured as a flyable aircraft in _Ace Combat 5_,_ Ace Combat X_,_ Ace Combat Joint Assault_, and _Ace Combat Infinity_.







_An FB-22 at full afterburner in Ace Combat Infinity (Credit Bandai Namco Entertainment)









The F-22 Raptor almost had a stealth bomber sibling


The night sky is an inky black and the soldiers on the ground barely give it a passing glance. Their radar scopes are clear; no enemies inbound. The first sign that they receive of the American strike is the bombs falling on key strategic targets. Precision small-diameter bombs fall within...




www.wearethemighty.com




_

(JFI ; I guess we should be open to bombers with FGF Azm?)

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## Pakistan Ka Beta

View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram


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## The Eagle

Pakistan Ka Beta said:


> View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram
> 
> 
> View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram



If you have already shared the same content in other thread, no need to re-post.

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## Pakistan Ka Beta

The Eagle said:


> If you have already shared the same content in other thread, no need to re-post.


sorry sir i thought we should keep a trail of PAF , PA , PN activities in News and discussions Threads as Particular Thread disappear with time .
Ghazi and few other brothers also share here as well .

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## The Eagle

Pakistan Ka Beta said:


> sorry sir i thought we should keep a trail of PAF , PA , PN activities in News and discussions as Particular Thread disappear with time .
> Ghazi and few other brothers also share here as well .



No problem Brother. Posting a thread is enough. Reposting sometimes makes it like spamming. Any news that doesn't need a new thread, can be posted in existing topics as such.

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## Pakistan Ka Beta

The Eagle said:


> No problem Brother. Posting a thread is enough. Reposting sometimes makes it like spamming. Any news that doesn't need a new thread, can be posted in existing topics as such.


Right Sir . Only important can be shared here as well as on a Separate Thread .

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## Windjammer

*Patch of the PM Air Crew (G450 & AW139) *

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## Pakistan Ka Beta

View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram


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## ghazi52



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## musaji

Any reason why we have a competition called 'Sher Afgans' instead of 'Sher-e-Pakistan'?

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## The Eagle

musaji said:


> Any reason why we have a competition called 'Sher Afgans' instead of 'Sher-e-Pakistan'?



The competition is about the best Marksman. Secondly, Sher Afgan is a character fr history known for bravery and sensing treachery. Why to limit the scope only to Pakistan. It goes back I'm history and known in the world.

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## musaji

The Eagle said:


> The competition is about the best Marksman. Secondly, Sher Afgan is a character fr history known for bravery and sensing treachery. Why to limit the scope only to Pakistan. It goes back I'm history and known in the world.




Interesting. Didn't know Sher Afgan was a historical character. Other than the fact he was the first husband of Nur Jahan, not sure what else he was known for. I think the competition is not named after the character but rather what it means (i.e. tiger grappler). Thanks!

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## hassan1



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## The Eagle

musaji said:


> Interesting. Didn't know Sher Afgan was a historical character. Other than the fact he was the first husband of Nur Jahan, not sure what else he was known for. I think the competition is not named after the character but rather what it means (i.e. tiger grappler). Thanks!



Not that character bro, the husband of Nur Jehan. But, a character having capabilities to sense treachery, brave & even if enemy thinks to lures, it will attack successfully and can never be trapped into an ambush. Well, call it tiger grappler or Nur Jehan's husband. (on the lighter note). Having above capabilities & skills, now think about Sher Afgan Trophy competition and marksmanship tasks to be done successfully.

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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52



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## PakShaheen79

Any news about Block-III??? Now it feels like I am wondering around in some PAF history forum.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

PakShaheen79 said:


> Any news about Block-III??? Now it feels like I am wondering around in some PAF history forum.


Nothing new. My guess? The PAF and AVIC are going to push some things back a bit to adjust with COVID et.al.

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## blain2

This has been an expensive year for the PAF with the loss of an F-16 (Wing Commander Nauman crash) and then the recent loss of a JF-17. While the latter is an inevitability on account of the risks of fighter flying, the first one was avoidable as getting operational fighter pilots to do aerobatics routines is a waste of lives, resources and assets.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

blain2 said:


> This has been an expensive year for the PAF with the loss of an F-16 (Wing Commander Nauman crash) and then the recent loss of a JF-17. While the latter is an inevitability on account of the risks of fighter flying, the first one was avoidable as getting operational fighter pilots to do aerobatics routines is a waste of lives, resources and assets.


I agree. Not sure why we had to put up an MLU out for such flying. If we had to use an F-16 (big if), we could've used to the non-MLU/ex-Jordanian ones instead. 

Otherwise, we should look at allocating a couple of JF-17 Block-Is for the role permanently.

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## ghazi52

No.12 VIP Squadron's F-27 ( Serial# 1025 4) Parked at Chaklala base tarmac. This Particular F-27 ( c/n 10254 ) was built in 1964 and delivered to PIA in 1988, Then to Pakistan Army in 1992 and finally to Pakistan Air Force in December 1994.

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## ghazi52

Pakistan Air Force has replaced its entire fleet of old and outdated Alouette-III helicopters with new state-of-the-art AW-139M helicopters. These helicopters are used for search and rescue and utility purposes.

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## Blacklight

ghazi52 said:


> No.12 VIP Squadron's F-27 ( Serial# 1025 4) Parked at Chaklala base tarmac. This Particular F-27 ( c/n 10254 ) was built in 1964 and delivered to PIA in 1988, Then to Pakistan Army in 1992 and finally to Pakistan Air Force in December 1994.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 673019


Still active, or retired?


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## Yasser76

Crashed.

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## Vapour

Yasser76 said:


> Crashed.



!?


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## Yasser76

Vapour said:


> !?

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## SQ8

Yasser76 said:


>


Took the creme of the PAF down with it - probably cost us 3 years in project delays and 100+ years combined experience of top notch leadership

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## Windjammer

It must be hard to be humble when you make history to be first to kill a super fighter.

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## ghazi52

The tea is fantastic

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Windjammer said:


> It must be hard to be humble when you make history to be first to kill a super fighter.
> 
> View attachment 673314


Seriously, bros, this is getting really weird now.

Look, we've got a hero here, great, but let's not take this too far by making some kind of celebrity culture out of it. Let's return to discussing issues, not people.

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## Windjammer

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Seriously, bros, this is getting really weird now.
> 
> Look, we've got a hero here, great, but let's not take this too far by making some kind of celebrity culture out of it. Let's return to discussing issues, not people.


Well sir, if the Indians are hell bent on to make a hero out of a zero then we have every right to celebrate the real victor discussing or rather cursing with topics such as we should have inducted say Mirage F-1 Fifty years ago is not exactly addressing any issues.

From IAF Officers Mess.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Windjammer said:


> Well sir, if the Indians are hell bent on to make a hero out of a zero then we have every right to celebrate the real victor discussing or rather cursing with topics such as we should have inducted say Mirage F-1 Fifty years ago is not exactly addressing any issues.
> 
> From IAF Officers Mess.
> 
> View attachment 673453



“Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas.” -- Henry Thomas Buckle

Basically, let others do what they want at their messes, drawing rooms and WhatsApp groups. We shouldn't debase ourselves to that level, but reflect on the circumstances that got us to the situation and to look ahead to perfect our actions for later. And if we don't, we'll become a meme ourselves.

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## Pakistan Ka Beta

*Old Songs of PAF shared recently by PAF official Instagram account .*


        View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram


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## Windjammer

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> “Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas.” -- Henry Thomas Buckle
> 
> Basically, let others do what they want at their messes, drawing rooms and WhatsApp groups. We shouldn't debase ourselves to that level, but reflect on the circumstances that got us to the situation and to look ahead to perfect our actions for later. And if we don't, we'll become a meme ourselves.


Well all said and done, at the end of the day there should be a happy medium.
In case you haven't noticed, lately the forum particularly the military image or media sections have been flooded by old multiple time repeated images of bygone era men and machines without anyone batting an eyelid but one of my solitary post getting so much attention and flak is indeed circumstantial.

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## Nomad40

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> “Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas.” -- Henry Thomas Buckle
> 
> Basically, let others do what they want at their messes, drawing rooms and WhatsApp groups. We shouldn't debase ourselves to that level, but reflect on the circumstances that got us to the situation and to look ahead to perfect our actions for later. And if we don't, we'll become a meme ourselves.


My personal philosophy is to adapt to the persons mental level but keep observant of not only what they speak but the body language and make mental notes this way it is a surety that one can be classified properly again only for the initial phases. This has nothing to do with Intelligence but decisiveness, I believe a person can learn a ton from people that might have a lesser cerebral capacity, and reflect from the interaction.

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## ghazi52

Father of Junaid Jamshed, Far Right Flying Officer Jamshed Akbar Khan.

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## ghazi52

F-86 , 
Black Spider's.

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## PakFactor

ghazi52 said:


> Father of Junaid Jamshed, Far Right Flying Officer Jamshed Akbar Khan.
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 674392



Amazing didn’t know his father was PAF.


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## PakShaheen79

Naval Chief visited Air HQ Islamabad. Met with ACM.

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## Bossman

musaji said:


> Any reason why we have a competition called 'Sher Afgans' instead of 'Sher-e-Pakistan'?


Sher Afgan is a name. Nothing to do do with the country. I.e Afgan and not Afghan. You must be Indian.


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## musaji

Bossman said:


> Sher Afgan is a name. Nothing to do do with the country. I.e Afgan and not Afghan. You must be Indian.



I am not an indian and you are late to the party.


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## North Star

Sher Afgan was famous for being a great marksman with the arrow.

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## mingle

North Star said:


> Sher Afgan was famous for being a great marksman with the arrow.


Sher afgan was 1st husband of Noor Jahan wife of Empror Jahangir its a basically central aisan or Persian name

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## Windjammer



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## Yasser76

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 675250



Medical training?


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## ghazi52

Latest painting, commissioned by OC 17 Sqn "Tigers" of Pakistan Airforce, depicts an F-7PG strafing its target during Inter Sqn Armament Competition 2019. 17 squadron was declared the best in F-7 weapon system category.

11 x 16 inches (unframed) - watercolors 










Just finished... F-6 of PAF 26 Sqn "Black Spiders" in an after rain morning, Peshawar AFB, late 1970s.









New commissioned painting, depicts an F-6 of PAF's No 11 Sqn "Arrows" at Sargodha AFB. 2 more F-6s are seen pitching out to land after an early morning sortie.

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## fatman17

Newly-minted JF-17B Block 2 captured today out of PAC Kamra stretching it’s wings for the first time! Will be added to PAF’s growing JF-17 thunder fleet (currently at 130+ JF-17s)
PC: Zohaib Malik https://t.co/eGZqsrmZbu

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## ghazi52

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1313838839073509379

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## ghazi52

Pilots From PAF No.14 Squadron Based In East Pakistan Discussing A Training Mission Sortie, Circa 1964.

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## denel

ghazi52 said:


> Latest painting, commissioned by OC 17 Sqn "Tigers" of Pakistan Airforce, depicts an F-7PG strafing its target during Inter Sqn Armament Competition 2019. 17 squadron was declared the best in F-7 weapon system category.
> 
> 11 x 16 inches (unframed) - watercolors
> 
> 
> View attachment 675606
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just finished... F-6 of PAF 26 Sqn "Black Spiders" in an after rain morning, Peshawar AFB, late 1970s.
> 
> 
> View attachment 675607
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New commissioned painting, depicts an F-6 of PAF's No 11 Sqn "Arrows" at Sargodha AFB. 2 more F-6s are seen pitching out to land after an early morning sortie.
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 675608


beauty


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## Pakistan Ka Beta

_

        View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram
 _



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## Trailer23

For those of you whom have not seen last years PAF-based movie, Sher Dil can now find it on the link below in HD.

Link: Sher Dil (2019) - YIFY


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Trailer23 said:


> For those of you whom have not seen last years PAF-based movie, Sher Dil can now find it on the link below in HD.
> 
> Link: Sher Dil (2019) - YIFY


ew.

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## Trailer23

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> ew.


I take it that you're not referring to *Electronic Warfare*  .

Yeah, I too have not seen it, but thought i'd do a speed run and see if I can get some valuable frames for future edits.

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## Blacklight

PakFactor said:


> Amazing didn’t know his father was PAF.



Flew F16's as well.

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## fatman17

Due to a stupid mistake here once again:

This seems to be the first image showing the #PAF JF-17B serial no. 19-607 with the regular tail art. [emoji106]
According to the panther it is now assigned to the No. 16 Squadron "Black Panthers" at PAF Minhas, Kamra. 

(Image via Zohaib Malik) https://t.co/MLkIhdBrFj

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## fatman17

Before and Now

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## Pakistan Ka Beta

View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram

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## Ali_Baba

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 678083



I remember seeing that Image so many years ago when it was first published, and i recall thinking how v.v.v advanced that cockpit layout was.

Block III may be also interesting if they adopt a single piece MFD ..

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## ghazi52

Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee CJCSC General Nadeem Raza visited an Operational Base of PAF today. During his visit the Chairman witnessed combat readiness of the base and visited operational units.

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## ghazi52

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=401443964579645

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## Pakistan Ka Beta

13 October, 2020: Major General (Pilot) Shihab Jahid Ali Shakarchi, Commander Iraqi Air Force, along with his delegation visited Air Headquarters, Islamabad today. Upon arrival, the distinguished guest was received by Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force. A smartly turned out contingent of the Pakistan Air Force presented Guard of Honour. The visiting dignitary also paid homage to PAF martyrs by laying a floral wreath at Yadgar-i-Shuhada (martyrs’ monument). The General also had a detailed meeting with Chief of the Air Staff. Both Commanders discussed various matters pertaining to security and mutual cooperation. Commander Iraqi Air Force lauded the professionalism of PAF personnel and the exceptional progress made by PAF over the years, through indigenization. The Air Chief highlighted the brotherly relations and collaboration between the two sides. Both the dignitaries agreed to further augment the already existing cordial relations between the two air forces.
Later in the day, Commander Iraqi Air Force also called on General Nadeem Raza, Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee, at Joint Staff Headquarters, Rawalpindi. Matters of bilateral professional interest and further strengthening of security and defence cooperation between the two countries were discussed during the meeting.







        View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1316072310416257025

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1316074010942279682

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1316074861069041670

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## ghazi52



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## Amavous

Can someone identify the model missile in this recent picture? looks like Antiship missile C-802. 

JF+17 + C-802, are they hinting something?

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## Blacklight

Amavous said:


> Can someone identify the model missile in this recent picture? looks like Antiship missile C-802.
> 
> JF+17 + C-802, are they hinting something?
> 
> 
> View attachment 679247


Wasnt C802 already confirmed for the JF17? @Dazzler

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## Amavous

Blacklight said:


> Wasnt C802 already confirmed for the JF17? @Dazzler



Yes, it is confirmed for Pakistan. what I want to say is that it's odd displaying Anti-ship missile when two air chiefs are meeting.

Maybe Pakistan is showcasing JF-17 to Iraq? The Iraqi airforce needs a complete makeover and JF-17 can fill the lower end of the capability spectrum. It will be a long shot but worth a try.

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## JamD

Amavous said:


> Yes, it is confirmed for Pakistan. what I want to say is that it's odd displaying Anti-ship missile when two air chiefs are meeting.
> 
> Maybe Pakistan is showcasing JF-17 to Iraq? The Iraqi airforce needs a complete makeover and JF-17 can fill the lower end of the capability spectrum. It will be a long shot but worth a try.


That model has been there for years and has been seen in every meeting the ACM takes.

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## hassan1



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## Pakistan Ka Beta

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1316735480268980229

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1316735480268980229

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__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=906401693099661

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## Pakistan Ka Beta

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## PakShaheen79

OK. I just found this and had no idea if this was correct forum to share... Any how, if Mods believe it is not, please move this to appropriate section of the forum. This is really an moving tale of respect, honor and grace.

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## Akh1112

PakShaheen79 said:


> OK. I just found this and had no idea if this was correct forum to share... Any how, if Mods believe it is not, please move this to appropriate section of the forum. This is really an moving tale of respect, honor and grace.
> 
> View attachment 680592
> 
> 
> View attachment 680593


love this.


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## Mustang-87

PakShaheen79 said:


> OK. I just found this and had no idea if this was correct forum to share... Any how, if Mods believe it is not, please move this to appropriate section of the forum. This is really an moving tale of respect, honor and grace.
> 
> View attachment 680592
> 
> 
> View attachment 680593


Her son also died in Pakistan last year

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## Armchair

So PAF seems to currently have roughly the following fleet:

F-16 - 75
JF-17 - 125 (approx?)
Mirage III - 89
Mirage V - 90
F-7PG - 57

This is a total of - 436 aircraft. That is approximately 24 squadrons worth of combat aircraft if we take 18 units per squadron. 

If we reduce squadron strength to 14 per squadron and add 8 UCAVs to each squadron, we could actually get to a 31 squadron air force. 

I think this would be a better way to use the Azm UCAV program than to make independent UCAV squadrons.

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## Yasser76

Armchair said:


> So PAF seems to currently have roughly the following fleet:
> 
> F-16 - 75
> JF-17 - 125 (approx?)
> Mirage III - 89
> Mirage V - 90
> F-7PG - 57
> 
> This is a total of - 436 aircraft. That is approximately 24 squadrons worth of combat aircraft if we take 18 units per squadron.
> 
> If we reduce squadron strength to 14 per squadron and add 8 UCAVs to each squadron, we could actually get to a 31 squadron air force.
> 
> I think this would be a better way to use the Azm UCAV program than to make independent UCAV squadrons.



I think you over estimated the Mirage numbers. Also combined UCAV/Manned squadrons will not work just yet for many reasons.

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## PakFactor

Armchair said:


> So PAF seems to currently have roughly the following fleet:
> 
> F-16 - 75
> JF-17 - 125 (approx?)
> Mirage III - 89
> Mirage V - 90
> F-7PG - 57
> 
> This is a total of - 436 aircraft. That is approximately 24 squadrons worth of combat aircraft if we take 18 units per squadron.
> 
> If we reduce squadron strength to 14 per squadron and add 8 UCAVs to each squadron, we could actually get to a 31 squadron air force.
> 
> I think this would be a better way to use the Azm UCAV program than to make independent UCAV squadrons.



I rather we have a separate squadron of UCAV without depleting the or reducing the regular AF Squadrons with if we allocate more aircraft per squadron. The UCAV should be a joint command between Army Air Corps and Air Force.

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## syed_yusuf

All types of mirage not more than 150 
F7 PG 53
F-16 75
JFT 130 AND COUNTING 

Total appx 410 fighters in 20 fighter squadron . The beauty of the above fleet is that paf now have appx 60% fleet of various 4th gen fighter

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## Armchair

Now, when I am talking about UCAVs, I don't mean the TB-2 or Predator type UCAV. I mean the kind of UCAV the airforce can use as a loyal wingman for strike and / or air to air missions. 

That is the real next step here. You don't want to create a separate squadron of loyal wingmen type advanced UCAVs. You want them to be organic to the air force squadrons to be effectively utilized. 

Meanwhile, you want your squadrons to be effective and efficient. If you put too many aircraft, whether manned or unmanned in a squadron, their marginal effectiveness decreases. There are only x number of people you can organize effectively, only x number of missions that a squadron has organizational capability to handle. 

This is why we saw in the first place why Western air forces preferred fewer aircraft in a squadron than Soviet / Chinese doctrine. 

Going by the same principle, you want to organize future combat aircraft / UCAV squadrons effectively not by adding x number of UCAVs to current squadrons (or even worse, creating separate UCAV squadrons), but by re-structuring your air force to have the best balance of manned and unmanned platforms per squadron.

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## Yasser76

Armchair said:


> Now, when I am talking about UCAVs, I don't mean the TB-2 or Predator type UCAV. I mean the kind of UCAV the airforce can use as a loyal wingman for strike and / or air to air missions.
> 
> That is the real next step here. You don't want to create a separate squadron of loyal wingmen type advanced UCAVs. You want them to be organic to the air force squadrons to be effectively utilized.
> 
> Meanwhile, you want your squadrons to be effective and efficient. If you put too many aircraft, whether manned or unmanned in a squadron, their marginal effectiveness decreases. There are only x number of people you can organize effectively, only x number of missions that a squadron has organizational capability to handle.
> 
> This is why we saw in the first place why Western air forces preferred fewer aircraft in a squadron than Soviet / Chinese doctrine.
> 
> Going by the same principle, you want to organize future combat aircraft / UCAV squadrons effectively not by adding x number of UCAVs to current squadrons (or even worse, creating separate UCAV squadrons), but by re-structuring your air force to have the best balance of manned and unmanned platforms per squadron.



It's an interesting idea, but that level of tech in a large enough UCAV simply does not exist at the moment.


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## PakShaheen79

AI based loyal wingmen are next evolution in air combat. DARPA is running an program where AI algorithms are being pitched against human brain to simulate aerial combats. Scary thing, AI is winning!

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## fatman17

I'm not entirely sure but by my understanding this is the #PAF JF-17B with the highest individual number seen so far spotted.

JF-17B no. 20-615 

(Image by Zarvan/PDF) https://t.co/asYsgJak60

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## Ghessan

fatman17 said:


> I'm not entirely sure but by my understanding this is the #PAF JF-17B with the highest individual number seen so far spotted.
> 
> JF-17B no. 20-615
> 
> (Image by Zarvan/PDF) https://t.co/asYsgJak60
> View attachment 682965



isn't it that there is a blur at both places around number area only? or may be i am looking too much into it.


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## GriffinsRule

Armchair said:


> So, is the rumor true about the J-10 touch down?


It touched down in China, not Pakistan

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## The Eagle

This thread is not to support rumor mills & hearsay. 

We do have a separate thread where everyone is allowed to see different landing gears, some different lights & even sort of a whole different planes landed to the strength of full squadron in Karachi or all over the Pakistan, that world hasn't seen yet. It is advised to not to pollute this place. Thread banned issued and In-case of further violations, more will follow. 

Regards,

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## Windjammer



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## fatman17

No comments. ...

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## Yasser76

L3Harris Technologies Inc., Clifton, New Jersey, has been awarded a $97,505,000 indefinite-delivery/indefinite-quantity contract to provide repair and return (R&R) services for unclassified and classified line-replaceable unit/standard equipment module assets of the ALQ-211 (V)4, (V)8, and (V)9 systems of the airborne F-16 Advanced Integrated Defense Electronic Warfare Suite (AIDEWS) weapon systems. This contract involves Foreign Military Sales (FMS) to support air forces of Chile, India, Oman, Pakistan, Poland, Turkey, Iraq and Morocco. Procurement of these R&R logistical support services is necessary to restore F-16 AIDEWS systems to mission capable condition and to equip partnering F-16 FMS fleets with airborne self-defense and survivability against electromagnetic threats. Work will be performed in Clifton, New Jersey, and is expected to be completed by Oct. 29, 2025. This award is the result of a sole-source acquisition. FMS funds in the amount of $73,000 are being obligated at the time of award. The Air Force Life Cycle Management Center, Robins Air Force Base, Georgia, is the contracting activity (FA8523-21-D-0001). 









Contracts for October 30, 2020


Today



www.defense.gov






Yasser76 said:


> L3Harris Technologies Inc., Clifton, New Jersey, has been awarded a $97,505,000 indefinite-delivery/indefinite-quantity contract to provide repair and return (R&R) services for unclassified and classified line-replaceable unit/standard equipment module assets of the ALQ-211 (V)4, (V)8, and (V)9 systems of the airborne F-16 Advanced Integrated Defense Electronic Warfare Suite (AIDEWS) weapon systems. This contract involves Foreign Military Sales (FMS) to support air forces of Chile, India, Oman, Pakistan, Poland, Turkey, Iraq and Morocco. Procurement of these R&R logistical support services is necessary to restore F-16 AIDEWS systems to mission capable condition and to equip partnering F-16 FMS fleets with airborne self-defense and survivability against electromagnetic threats. Work will be performed in Clifton, New Jersey, and is expected to be completed by Oct. 29, 2025. This award is the result of a sole-source acquisition. FMS funds in the amount of $73,000 are being obligated at the time of award. The Air Force Life Cycle Management Center, Robins Air Force Base, Georgia, is the contracting activity (FA8523-21-D-0001).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Contracts for October 30, 2020
> 
> 
> Today
> 
> 
> 
> www.defense.gov



Imagine they meant Israel not India in the above, Mistake.

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## mingle

Yasser76 said:


> L3Harris Technologies Inc., Clifton, New Jersey, has been awarded a $97,505,000 indefinite-delivery/indefinite-quantity contract to provide repair and return (R&R) services for unclassified and classified line-replaceable unit/standard equipment module assets of the ALQ-211 (V)4, (V)8, and (V)9 systems of the airborne F-16 Advanced Integrated Defense Electronic Warfare Suite (AIDEWS) weapon systems. This contract involves Foreign Military Sales (FMS) to support air forces of Chile, India, Oman, Pakistan, Poland, Turkey, Iraq and Morocco. Procurement of these R&R logistical support services is necessary to restore F-16 AIDEWS systems to mission capable condition and to equip partnering F-16 FMS fleets with airborne self-defense and survivability against electromagnetic threats. Work will be performed in Clifton, New Jersey, and is expected to be completed by Oct. 29, 2025. This award is the result of a sole-source acquisition. FMS funds in the amount of $73,000 are being obligated at the time of award. The Air Force Life Cycle Management Center, Robins Air Force Base, Georgia, is the contracting activity (FA8523-21-D-0001).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Contracts for October 30, 2020
> 
> 
> Today
> 
> 
> 
> www.defense.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Imagine they meant Israel not India in the above, Mistake.


Good Pakistan back in FMS


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## GriffinsRule

Yasser76 said:


> L3Harris Technologies Inc., Clifton, New Jersey, has been awarded a $97,505,000 indefinite-delivery/indefinite-quantity contract to provide repair and return (R&R) services for unclassified and classified line-replaceable unit/standard equipment module assets of the ALQ-211 (V)4, (V)8, and (V)9 systems of the airborne F-16 Advanced Integrated Defense Electronic Warfare Suite (AIDEWS) weapon systems. This contract involves Foreign Military Sales (FMS) to support air forces of Chile, India, Oman, Pakistan, Poland, Turkey, Iraq and Morocco. Procurement of these R&R logistical support services is necessary to restore F-16 AIDEWS systems to mission capable condition and to equip partnering F-16 FMS fleets with airborne self-defense and survivability against electromagnetic threats. Work will be performed in Clifton, New Jersey, and is expected to be completed by Oct. 29, 2025. This award is the result of a sole-source acquisition. FMS funds in the amount of $73,000 are being obligated at the time of award. The Air Force Life Cycle Management Center, Robins Air Force Base, Georgia, is the contracting activity (FA8523-21-D-0001).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Contracts for October 30, 2020
> 
> 
> Today
> 
> 
> 
> www.defense.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Imagine they meant Israel not India in the above, Mistake.


No it probably does mean India. Possibly their C-130 fleet or the Apaches.


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## Vapour

Yasser76 said:


> L3Harris Technologies Inc., Clifton, New Jersey, has been awarded a $97,505,000 indefinite-delivery/indefinite-quantity contract to provide repair and return (R&R) services for unclassified and classified line-replaceable unit/standard equipment module assets of the ALQ-211 (V)4, (V)8, and (V)9 systems of the airborne F-16 Advanced Integrated Defense Electronic Warfare Suite (AIDEWS) weapon systems. This contract involves Foreign Military Sales (FMS) to support air forces of Chile, India, Oman, Pakistan, Poland, Turkey, Iraq and Morocco. Procurement of these R&R logistical support services is necessary to restore F-16 AIDEWS systems to mission capable condition and to equip partnering F-16 FMS fleets with airborne self-defense and survivability against electromagnetic threats. Work will be performed in Clifton, New Jersey, and is expected to be completed by Oct. 29, 2025. This award is the result of a sole-source acquisition. FMS funds in the amount of $73,000 are being obligated at the time of award. The Air Force Life Cycle Management Center, Robins Air Force Base, Georgia, is the contracting activity (FA8523-21-D-0001).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Contracts for October 30, 2020
> 
> 
> Today
> 
> 
> 
> www.defense.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Imagine they meant Israel not India in the above, Mistake.



Perhaps used in their Tejas "fighter jets"?


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## Yasser76

GriffinsRule said:


> No it probably does mean India. Possibly their C-130 fleet or the Apaches.



Yes, but the notification indicates the systems were all F-16 compatible. I am aware that ALQ-211/AIDEWS can be carried by other aircraft but the notification is F-16 specific. None of the other countries mentioned operate Apache/C-130J.


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## Vapour

mingle said:


> Good Pakistan back in FMS



There's a been a couple before this too, most memorable one being the contract to monitor the Block 52 F-16s last summer.


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## Yasser76

mingle said:


> Good Pakistan back in FMS



Always has been if you look at DoD Contract history. Difference is now we are just spending small amounts to maintain current US weapons, no major new purchases of hardware

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## fatman17

Exports.

It was reported in June 2015 that *JF-17* secured its first export contract from an Asian customer which turned out to be Myanmar. The $560m contract could involve an initial batch of 16 aircraft. A recent image (July 2016) suggested that the 04 prototype has been wearing a new blue color scheme based upon customer's requirements. The first *JF-17M* (Block II standard) had its maiden flight at CAC on June 13, 2017, featuring a blue/gray camouflage and a color LED landing light on the front landing gear similar to that onboard *JF-17B*. However the aircraft appears to lack the IFR capability. It was reported in September 2016 that Nigerian AF has decided to acquire *JF-17*. The initial batch of 3 (later 4?) *JF-17N* is expected to be delivered in November 2020. All (720, 721, 722, 702?) were speculated to have been built by early 2020. A recent news (December 2017) indicated that *JF-17* Block III entered the preliminary design stage in October 2017. A recent image (October 2018) indicated that the first batch of 5 *JF-17M*s (S/N 1701-1705) were delivered to Myanmar Air Force, which has become the second customer of the aircraft.
_- Last Updated 10/30/20_

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## Scorpiooo

AgustaWestland AW139

PAKISTAN AIR FORCE

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## GriffinsRule

Not sure if these have been posted before, but talented Turkish designer behind the tail art of 2 F-7 squadrons in PAF. Lots of extremely nice patch designs.




__





Login • Instagram


Welcome back to Instagram. Sign in to check out what your friends, family & interests have been capturing & sharing around the world.




www.instagram.com

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## Ali_Baba

A slightly dated article on the Meteor missile that people maybe interested to read if they have not seen it before.









Is the European Meteor Air-To-Air Missile Really the Best in the World?


Some would say the best arrow is the one still left in your quiver.




www.thedrive.com


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## blinder

Talons at Mianwali/M.M.Alam AB nowadays? 
At least a handful with these very markings were landing at that base, see Hum News 7 September footage:


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## Yasser76

blinder said:


> Talons at Mianwali/M.M.Alam AB nowadays?
> At least a handful with these very markings were landing at that base, see Hum News 7 September footage:



Could be that both Samunguli and Peshawar both have a JF-17 unit and a F-7PG unit each. Could be that each air bases is getting a second JF-17 unit and in that case it would make sense to consolidate all F-7s at Mianwali.

Likewise when a second JF-17 unit reaches Masroor than I imagine all the Mirage units will be consolidate at Rafiqui. This would be entirely logical from a logistics, training and economic point of view. 1 Mirage base, 1 F-7 base, then the "teeth" of PAF consisting of 3 F-16 airbases and 4 JF-17 airbases.


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## Raider 21

Yasser76 said:


> Could be that both Samunguli and Peshawar both have a JF-17 unit and a F-7PG unit each. Could be that each air bases is getting a second JF-17 unit and in that case it would make sense to consolidate all F-7s at Mianwali.
> 
> Likewise when a second JF-17 unit reaches Masroor than I imagine all the Mirage units will be consolidate at Rafiqui. This would be entirely logical from a logistics, training and economic point of view. 1 Mirage base, 1 F-7 base, then the "teeth" of PAF consisting of 3 F-16 airbases and 4 JF-17 airbases.


No. 14 squadron is moving to Rafiqui. If it is a permanent move, it'll be an end to Kamra hosting a very prestigious squadron.

No. 2 squadron is moving to Jacobabad.


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## Tipu7

Raider 21 said:


> No. 14 squadron is moving to Rafiqui. If it is a permanent move, it'll be an end to Kamra hosting a very prestigious squadron.


Hasn't it moved already?


Raider 21 said:


> No. 2 squadron is moving to Jacobabad.


A Thunder Squadron at Jacobabad! What will happen to F16 squadrons we got there? And what's coming up in place of No2 in Masroor?

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## mingle

Tipu7 said:


> Hasn't it moved already?
> 
> A Thunder Squadron at Jacobabad! What will happen to F16 squadrons we got there? And what's coming up in place of No2 in Masroor?


Probably new birds we hearing all around from China


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## Akh1112

mingle said:


> Probably new birds we hearing all around from China


 

havent heard anything from any credible source

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## Yasser76

Raider 21 said:


> No. 14 squadron is moving to Rafiqui. If it is a permanent move, it'll be an end to Kamra hosting a very prestigious squadron.
> 
> No. 2 squadron is moving to Jacobabad.



I was under the impression we could not station Chinese fighters next to the Block 52s


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## Akh1112

Yasser76 said:


> I was under the impression we could not station Chinese fighters next to the Block 52s



can, they are stored at different parts of the bases, with different personnel for each part.


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## Nomad40

Raider 21 said:


> No. 14 squadron is moving to Rafiqui. If it is a permanent move, it'll be an end to Kamra hosting a very prestigious squadron.
> 
> No. 2 squadron is moving to Jacobabad.


In all honesty why are they moving NO-2 to Jacob?


mingle said:


> Probably new birds we hearing all around from China





Akh1112 said:


> havent heard anything from any credible source



waiting game.


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## mingle

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> In all honesty why are they moving NO-2 to Jacob?
> 
> 
> 
> waiting game.


Some thing gona replace No2 Sqd?


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## Yasser76

Akh1112 said:


> can, they are stored at different parts of the bases, with different personnel for each part.



Official cables leaked by Wikileaks show that even non US aircraft were exempt from landing at the base and they made exemptions for European helicopters and CASA planes. Unsure if this policy has changed, and in fact just in December 2019 Pakistan renewed the technical security contract with US DoD/Booze Allen. Do you have a source?


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## Nomad40

mingle said:


> Some thing gona replace No2 Sqd?


l cannot answer that question there are more knowledgeable people in the forum in regards to this that can answer.


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## Akh1112

Yasser76 said:


> Official cables leaked by Wikileaks show that even non US aircraft were exempt from landing at the base and they made exemptions for European helicopters and CASA planes. Unsure if this policy has changed, and in fact just in December 2019 Pakistan renewed the technical security contract with US DoD/Booze Allen. Do you have a source?


yes. here. https://warontherocks.com/2020/08/h...e-with-pakistan-can-help-it-deal-with-turkey/


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## Raider 21

Yasser76 said:


> I was under the impression we could not station Chinese fighters next to the Block 52s


Visiting Chinese aircraft from PLAAF cannot have F-16s seen in their sight, nor they are to have exercises with them. No rule not having Chinese origin fighters on the same base as PAF Vipers.

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## TsAr

Amigator said:


> Respectful members! What do you think, is J 10 gonna be a part of PAF. YES/NO? If yes which variant? Possibly.


Why not.....


Yasser76 said:


> I was under the impression we could not station Chinese fighters next to the Block 52s


They can be stationed on same base but are not allowed to mingle...


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## Nomad40

guys common stop this debate over western and eastern equipment. 

If it is owned and operated by PAF than they can station and mingle as much as they wish.


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## Akh1112

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> guys common stop this debate over western and eastern equipment.
> 
> If it is owned and operated by PAF than they can station and mingle as much as they wish.




they literally cant lol. its in the end user agreements.


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## Nomad40

Akh1112 said:


> they literally cant lol. its in the end user agreements.


Show me it!!!


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## Akh1112

How America’s Experience with Pakistan Can Help it Deal with Turkey - War on the Rocks


In its ties with Turkey, the United States finds itself in a classic Catch-22. Turkish foreign policy often runs afoul of U.S. interests. However, Ankara



warontherocks.com






Mirage Battle Commander said:


> Show me it!!!


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## Nomad40

Akh1112 said:


> How America’s Experience with Pakistan Can Help it Deal with Turkey - War on the Rocks
> 
> 
> In its ties with Turkey, the United States finds itself in a classic Catch-22. Turkish foreign policy often runs afoul of U.S. interests. However, Ankara
> 
> 
> 
> warontherocks.com


Brother dont come at me with garbage, use Logic. 

I have read about 20 seconds in to the Pakistan section, look at the writers and the stuff they write about.

stay safe, cheers.


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## GriffinsRule

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> Brother dont come at me with garbage, use Logic.
> 
> I have read about 20 seconds in to the Pakistan section, look at the writers and the stuff they write about.
> 
> stay safe, cheers.


A hint comes from the last ACM's speech himself, where he says he rejected additional F-16s because the terms of use were unacceptable for PAF. So its safe to assume there are some very stringent rules around basing of F-16s in Pakistan. 
All of that of course goes out the window if there is a war, but short of that, there are certainly some restrictions.


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## Talon

blinder said:


> Talons at Mianwali/M.M.Alam AB nowadays?
> At least a handful with these very markings were landing at that base, see Hum News 7 September footage:



Well now as someone has finally shared it,yes Talons are at Mianwali since September but its a temporary deployment due certain reasons



Raider 21 said:


> No. 14 squadron is moving to Rafiqui.


Already moved in October





Tipu7 said:


> And what's coming up in place of No2 in Masroor?


Ghazis, already moved

Of all the movements I hinted few months ago, only No. 18s conversion to Kamra is pending now (or maybe already done, I am not aware)

P.s and another sqn is to move as well,not gonna name it

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## Raider 21

GriffinsRule said:


> A hint comes from the last ACM's speech himself, where he says he rejected additional F-16s because the terms of use were unacceptable for PAF. So its safe to assume there are some very stringent rules around basing of F-16s in Pakistan.
> All of that of course goes out the window if there is a war, but short of that, there are certainly some restrictions.


That assumption is wrong sir.

Cheers!!!

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## Ahmet Pasha

Raider 21 said:


> That assumption is wrong sir.
> 
> Cheers!!!


They are not in mood to give us anything. PAF don't know when to stop. Like a tharki who doesn't know how to deal with rejection and stop.

You have seen what they did with the Ah1Z. They even blocked T129 engines. 

Pakistan does not sit well with their aims against the muslim world. 

F16s, F15s, F35s etc are given to filthy rich habibis even then the habibis have to do some serious boot polishing.


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## Yasser76

Akh1112 said:


> yes. here. https://warontherocks.com/2020/08/h...e-with-pakistan-can-help-it-deal-with-turkey/



I have read it, it does not prove your point at all. Again, please show me evidence that Pakistan can base Chinese planes with the Vipers. Cables from US ambassador and Hilary Clinton confirmed they cannot. If you are claiming to the contrary best to support your claims


Mirage Battle Commander said:


> guys common stop this debate over western and eastern equipment.
> 
> If it is owned and operated by PAF than they can station and mingle as much as they wish.



This is incorrect according to all open source info available


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## Irfan Baloch

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> guys common stop this debate over western and eastern equipment.
> 
> If it is owned and operated by PAF than they can station and mingle as much as they wish.


in order to protect its intellectual property the technology design features etc from chinese potential theft the Americans put such restrictions on Pakistan due to its close defence ties with china.
Americans are rightfully protective of their technology and this policy is worldwide there is nothing to feel insulted or singled out.
there is no restriction on the use of F16s in defence of Pakistan. I would go as far as saying they can be used to deter or retaliate cross border into India in case of open hostilities like last year. I recall Americans saying that too when Indians were complaining they were beaten with American weapons. 

whats more, the Americans based inside Pakistan related to F16 inspection brought sweets for PAF counterparts celebrating together the Downing of Soviet SU 30 with an American F16.


Ahmet Pasha said:


> They are not in mood to give us anything. PAF don't know when to stop. Like a tharki who doesn't know how to deal with rejection and stop.
> 
> You have seen what they did with the Ah1Z. They even blocked T129 engines.
> 
> Pakistan does not sit well with their aims against the muslim world.
> 
> F16s, F15s, F35s etc are given to filthy rich habibis even then the habibis have to do some serious boot polishing.


our foreign policy bad economy and relations has to share some blame for these restrictions.
PAF loves the American equipment because its best and relatively economical compared to western European systems.
yes facing blockades and bans really sucks for sure but alternatives are either too expensive or not even at par with minimum requirements.
as for habibies they dont beg for anything hey just buy to stay cosy with Americans. although they might have less personnel and pilots to operate American jets.

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## Akh1112

Yasser76 said:


> I have read it, it does not prove your point at all. Again, please show me evidence that Pakistan can base Chinese planes with the Vipers. Cables from US ambassador and Hilary Clinton confirmed they cannot. If you are claiming to the contrary best to support your claims
> 
> 
> This is incorrect according to all open source info available



" On bases where advanced F-16s are present, the United States requires that Pakistan separate them from other aircraft and strictly limit access to the area where they are located. "


Mirage Battle Commander said:


> Brother dont come at me with garbage, use Logic.
> 
> I have read about 20 seconds in to the Pakistan section, look at the writers and the stuff they write about.
> 
> stay safe, cheers.




Irrelevant, this is the end user agreement. You have provided nothing to support your claim.


----------



## Nomad40

Akh1112 said:


> " On bases where advanced F-16s are present, the United States requires that Pakistan separate them from other aircraft and strictly limit access to the area where they are located. "
> 
> 
> 
> Irrelevant, this is the end user agreement. You have provided nothing to support your claim.


You are very intelligent, you do you sir .


Hodor said:


> Well now as someone has finally shared it,yes Talons are at Mianwali since September but its a temporary deployment due certain reasons
> 
> 
> Already moved in October
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ghazis, already moved
> 
> Of all the movements I hinted few months ago, only No. 18s conversion to Kamra is pending now (or maybe already done, I am not aware)
> 
> P.s and another sqn is to move as well,not gonna name it


why the rotations ? if I remember correctly Ghazis were stationed in Karachi?


----------



## Yasser76

Akh1112 said:


> " On bases where advanced F-16s are present, the United States requires that Pakistan separate them from other aircraft and strictly limit access to the area where they are located. "
> 
> 
> 
> Irrelevant, this is the end user agreement. You have provided nothing to support your claim.



Again, you seem to be posting evidence that supports my point not yours.

Let me know your thoughts on the below and than try and post evidence that supports your claim that JF-17s can now be based there.

"The F-16 aircraft are subject to security restrictions that the aircraft, armaments, related equipment and technical data need to be housed at a separate air force base which does not have “non-US/non-Pakistani origin personnel and aircraft.” A January 2009 cable explained this further, stating that “there have been other US government concerns about illegal technology transfer relating to Pakistan’s co-production program with the JF-17 Chinese fighter aircraft.” 









WikiLeaks on Shahbaz airbase: F-16s flew in, with guaranteed US presence at base | The Express Tribune


PM and PAF clarified that the base was under Pakistan’s control and denied the presence of American officers.




tribune.com.pk


----------



## Akh1112

Yasser76 said:


> Again, you seem to be posting evidence that supports my point not yours.
> 
> Let me know your thoughts on the below and than try and post evidence that supports your claim that JF-17s can now be based there.
> 
> "The F-16 aircraft are subject to security restrictions that the aircraft, armaments, related equipment and technical data need to be housed at a separate air force base which does not have “non-US/non-Pakistani origin personnel and aircraft.” A January 2009 cable explained this further, stating that “there have been other US government concerns about illegal technology transfer relating to Pakistan’s co-production program with the JF-17 Chinese fighter aircraft.”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WikiLeaks on Shahbaz airbase: F-16s flew in, with guaranteed US presence at base | The Express Tribune
> 
> 
> PM and PAF clarified that the base was under Pakistan’s control and denied the presence of American officers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tribune.com.pk




oh no lmao, i agree with your point, i think theres been a miscommunication somewhere here.


----------



## airomerix

Only Chinese officials are not allowed near US equipment. 

Sargodha houses both Jf-17s and F-16s. Block 52's are also deployed regularly in the south and centre along with JF-17s. During high mark, F-16s operate in and out of several bases that house JF-17s. 

Pakistan itself is not comfortable with yanks roaming around in Kamra. It will be impossible to manage a large number of Chinese and American personnel at one base. 

These Wikileaks and reports are only exaggerated forms of regular US restrictions.

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## Scorpiooo

Raider 21 said:


> No. 14 squadron is moving to Rafiqui. If it is a permanent move, it'll be an end to Kamra hosting a very prestigious squadron.
> 
> No. 2 squadron is moving to Jacobabad.


Any idea why the movement


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## Pakistan Ka Beta

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1328297350318710786

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1328298856476528641

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1328298984570548224


        View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram

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## fatman17

Op Swift Retort

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## fatman17

Legendary PAF fighter pilot Air Marshal (Retd) Dilawar Hussain, who was awarded Sitara-i-Jura’at for his heroics in the 1965 War against India, breathed his last in Islamabad today. 

1/n https://t.co/lurH2YAQ9x

Reactions: Like Like:
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## HRK

fatman17 said:


> Legendary PAF fighter pilot Air Marshal (Retd) Dilawar Hussain, who was awarded Sitara-i-Jura’at for his heroics in the 1965 War against India, breathed his last in Islamabad today.
> 
> 1/n https://t.co/lurH2YAQ9x
> View attachment 690692


إِنَّا لِلَّهِ وَإِنَّا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعُونَ ​

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## Talon

Upgrades?
Image Source : Instagram

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## MIRauf

Hodor said:


> Upgrades?
> Image Source : Instagram
> 
> View attachment 690968


Expaning Airbase and making HS for 40+ PLAAF J-10s to be housed there ? 

Now after completion, someone needs to photoshop 40+ J-10s once again for kicks and giggles.

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## Aryeih Leib

Hodor said:


> Upgrades?
> Image Source : Instagram
> 
> View attachment 690968


OPSEC ?


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## Talon

Aryeih Leib said:


> OPSEC ?


You think the enemy doesn't know?

The picture is not mine,it was shared on public account of a commercial pilot on Instagram.Constructions are also visible on G Maps.

Also my post doesn't say anything about PAF,skardu is a shared strip and I posted picture taken from civilian ramp.

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## Aryeih Leib

Hodor said:


> You think the enemy doesn't know?
> 
> The picture is not mine,it was shared on public account of a commercial pilot on Instagram.Constructions are also visible on G Maps.
> 
> Also my post doesn't say anything about PAF,skardu is a shared strip and I posted picture taken from civilian ramp.


Okiii


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## ghazi52

Blast of the Past.

Air Marshal Rahim khan, Then Base Commander Masroor Presenting all round best Trophy to Flying officer Farooq Umar at jet Conversion School Masroor Karachi in 1961.







AM Rahim khan later became chief of the Air staff Pakistan Air Force in 1971 and helped Create the Lybian Air force which fought the 1973 Arab israel war with great Distinction to win back the Suez Canal and the oil fields at Abu Rudais in Sinai.

Courtesy : AVM Farooq Umar

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## ghazi52

FT-7, Quetta

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## ghazi52

Shenyang FT-2 (UMiG).

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## fatman17

Flt Lt Ayesha Farooq, #Pakistan 's first female combat qualified pilot #PAF https://t.co/X9NUS2RL4o

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## fatman17

China-Pakistan Bilateral Military Exercises SHAHEEN IX 2020 to start in a few days.

The People’s Liberation Army Air Force and the Pakistan Air Force will be conducting large-scale interoperability military air warfare exercises starting Monday, next week. #China [emoji630] #Pakistan [emoji1191] https://t.co/u47U6Ae8z7

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## Tomcats

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1334779576719912963

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## fatman17

#PACKamra Chairman, Air Marshal Noman told me last week the first MFI-17 Super Mushshak for the @TurkishAirForce has been rolled out of the paint shop. It looks smart. The first of 52 on order.

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## kursed

Shaheen IX to begin in Pakistan soon. PLAAF to participate with J10C, J11 and force multipliers.

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## JamD

kursed said:


> Shaheen IX to begin in Pakistan soon. PLAAF to participate with J10C, J11 and force multipliers.


And will the PLAAF forget to take back their J-10C's?

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## Windjammer

kursed said:


> Shaheen IX to begin *in Pakistan *soon. PLAAF to participate with J10C, J11 and force multipliers.


Are you sure as last exercise took place in Pakistan so this time it would be in China.

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## kursed

Windjammer said:


> Are you sure as last exercise took place in Pakistan so this time it would be in China.


Shaheen VIII happened in China, this one is taking place at Bolahri (Shaheen IX).


JamD said:


> And will the PLAAF forget to take back their J-10C's?


LOL! I am more interested in the ECM / EW aircraft being sent in as force multipliers for this ex.

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## razgriz19

I was just reading about RQ-170 Sentinel that Iran captured. 
The report mentioned the aircraft was also being used to monitor Pakistan's missile program as well as performing reconnaissance on OBL compound. 
The aircraft was also flying overhead when the raid took place.

Here are my concerns:
- Iran was able to detect and hack the aircraft.
- we didn't even know it had been spying on us let alone hacking it.
- did the PAF or Army did anything to raise a similar electronic warfare unit as Iran's?

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## fatman17

Red Flag 2012

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## araz

razgriz19 said:


> I was just reading about RQ-170 Sentinel that Iran captured.
> The report mentioned the aircraft was also being used to monitor Pakistan's missile program as well as performing reconnaissance on OBL compound.
> The aircraft was also flying overhead when the raid took place.
> 
> Here are my concerns:
> - Iran was able to detect and hack the aircraft.
> - we didn't even know it had been spying on us let alone hacking it.
> - did the PAF or Army did anything to raise a similar electronic warfare unit as Iran's?


We were absolutely aware of what was happening. To think otherwise would be naive in my humble opinion.
A

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## Tomcats

Why is there no news circulating on the exercise though, nothing from Chinese and Pakistani media yet nor any confirmation officially. Is this normal?


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## Vapour

araz said:


> We were absolutely aware of what was happening. To think otherwise would be naive in my humble opinion.
> A



So this was intentionally allowed to happen as well as the fact that this intel was being shared with the Indians?


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## araz

Vapour said:


> So this was intentionally allowed to happen as well as the fact that this intel was being shared with the Indians?


I have nothing further to say on the matter. However the intelligencia was aware of the planes flying but had little to do with what was captured by these planes. A lot of things are done for reasons which cannot be understood without knowing all the facts(which remain unknown to me and to you as well as most posters here). It therefore becomes difficult to draw conclusions from bare bones. Lastly the US does not need reapers to find out what you have. It knows already. 
Regards

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## Vapour

araz said:


> I have nothing further to say on the matter. However the intelligencia was aware of the planes flying but had little to do with what was captured by these planes. A lot of things are done for reasons which cannot be understood without knowing all the facts(which remain unknown to me and to you as well as most posters here). It therefore becomes difficult to draw conclusions from bare bones. Lastly the US does not need reapers to find out what you have. It knows already.
> Regards



To an extent yes, but can a clear line be drawn with regard to this? If measures are taken to curtail certain snooping methods such as counter-Intel against double agents/those who have been bought out as well as shooting down UAVs of other countries, including one known instance which has been well within own borders - then why can't this be extended to something that's within your control at least?

You're right, technologically and otherwise, there's a multitude of other ways for the US to extract what it needs and it probably knows everything it needs to know. However, should the controllables not be controlled?


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## fatman17

22 July 2014

A JDAM prematurely explodes after being dropped from an F-16. The jet made it back to an airfield but Lockheed Martin refused to repair it; saying it was extensively damaged.

The wild boys at PAC Kamra did the job and did it right. Today, Viper 602 is still flying. https://t.co/fQghQust4D

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## fatman17

fatman17 said:


> 22 July 2014
> 
> A JDAM prematurely explodes after being dropped from an F-16. The jet made it back to an airfield but Lockheed Martin refused to repair it; saying it was extensively damaged.
> 
> The wild boys at PAC Kamra did the job and did it right. Today, Viper 602 is still flying. https://t.co/fQghQust4D
> View attachment 693851
> View attachment 693852
> View attachment 693853


1-Went in a flat spin 
2-Throttle stopped working 
3-Didn’t slowed down on first landing attempt pilots took off again otherwise it would have overran the runway 
4-was Stopped by using a net
5-when it landed canopy didn’t open and was jettisoned by the ground crew.

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## Windjammer

Pilot OffIcer Abdullah Younas (Pakistan Air Force), received the inaugural Commandant's International Trainee Sword of Honour on graduation ceremony at Australian Defence Force Academy, Campbell.

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## fatman17

#NigerianAirForce pilots training with the #PakistanAirForce 'Tail Choppers' (top right), in preparation for the three #PAC JF-17s being delivered next year (top left). The @CAS_AMSadique is embarking on a major rebuilding exercise.

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## Raider 21

Windjammer said:


> Pilot OffIcer Abdullah Younas (Pakistan Air Force), received the inaugural Commandant's International Trainee Sword of Honour on graduation ceremony at Australian Defence Force Academy, Campbell.
> 
> 
> View attachment 694047


Excellent job. It is good to see news like this. It will repair and enhance relations with the ADFA.

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## ghazi52

A silent warrior from Operation Swift Retort .

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## ghazi52

PAF Pilot Officer Abdullah Younas received the Inaugural Commandant's International Trainee Sword of Honour on Graduation ceremony at Australian Defence Force Academy, Campbell.

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## PanzerKiel



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## fatman17

Earlier today, a #China AirForce (PLAAF) Y20 Heavy lift plane was spotted descending into #Pakistan near Bholari Airbase, along with it was spotted another unknown aircraft (suspected PLAAF) following the same route 

Aircraft are suspected to be in support of a joint exercise https://t.co/W4r0w5xTzw


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## fatman17

Sqdn to Sqdn

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## fatman17

Next Thunder Squadron 
SharpShooters

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## Raider 21

fatman17 said:


> Next Thunder Squadron
> SharpShooters


Conversion has started, with JF-17Bs

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## WinterFangs



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## Pakistan Ka Beta

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1336674479938760709

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1336675830248796160


        View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram

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## arjunk

J-10, Flanker, Mirage, F-7, JF-17 is what I've seen so far

The Flanker would be particularly worrying for our eastern neighbours.





Just to be clear, the one on the extreme left is a J-11 right?

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## Abu Zarrar

WinterFangs said:


>


why there is no tail codes on J10?
@HRK

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## HRK

Abu Zarrar said:


> why there is no tail codes on J10?
> @HRK


may be with low visibility marking ..... which PLAAF is adopting from some time with latest aircraft like J-16 and J-10Cs....

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## MIRauf

Sulman Badshah said:


> Sound fishy .. might be for PAF


No, It's how PLAAF roles to keep you guessing as to what Squadron, which base etc.

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## PakShaheen79



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## Raider 21

PakShaheen79 said:


>


A neat video. 0:54 again they are sugar coating it. Nevertheless, good to see exercises like this.

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## Ahmet Pasha

PakShaheen79 said:


>


ACM Mujahid is in a lot of these pictures?


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## Metal 0-1

fatman17 said:


> 22 July 2014
> 
> A JDAM prematurely explodes after being dropped from an F-16. The jet made it back to an airfield but Lockheed Martin refused to repair it; saying it was extensively damaged.
> 
> The wild boys at PAC Kamra did the job and did it right. Today, Viper 602 is still flying. https://t.co/fQghQust4D
> View attachment 693851
> View attachment 693852
> View attachment 693853





fatman17 said:


> 1-Went in a flat spin
> 2-Throttle stopped working
> 3-Didn’t slowed down on first landing attempt pilots took off again otherwise it would have overran the runway
> 4-was Stopped by using a net
> 5-when it landed canopy didn’t open and was jettisoned by the ground crew.





"On 22nd July 2014 at 8 pm two Pakistan Air Force pilots *Group Captain Azman Khaleel* and *Squadron Leader Asim* took off in F-16B (Serial# 82602) from PAF Base Mushaf to conduct an airstrike on terrorist Hideout. F-16 Fighter Jet went out of control into a spin manoeuvre and was quickly descending toward the ground. Group Captain Azman Khaleel who was on the backseat didn’t panicked and took the control of Fighter jet from Sq Ldr Asim. Skilled pilot Immediately took corrective action and was able to take fighter jet out of the uncontrolled spin manoeuvre"

Interesting Article.








The Story of PAF Pilot who managed to land a damaged F-16 fighter jet - Fighter Jets World


In 2014 Pakistan launched Operation Zarb-e-Azb a joint military offensive conducted by the Pak




fighterjetsworld.com





Group Captain Sharing his experience of that night. How he landed jet while wearing NVGs.








How the PAF pilot Group Captain Azman Khalil saved F-16 from c...


How the PAF pilot Group Captain Azman Khalil saved F-16 from crashing after the Hydraulics and throttle failed during a bombing run due to a bomb...




www.facebook.com

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## Danish Moazzam

arjunk said:


> J-10, Flanker, Mirage, F-7, JF-17 is what I've seen so far
> 
> The Flanker would be particularly worrying for our eastern neighbours.
> View attachment 694562
> 
> 
> Just to be clear, the one on the extreme left is a J-11 right?


Now in perspective, JF-17 is a very very small bird. Small but packing a good punch

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## The Eagle

Everyone! Please redirect your discussion to relevant thread regarding Shaheen-IX exercise including A/Cs etc. This thread needs to focus on news especially for PAF.

Regards,

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## PakShaheen79

Passing out of first ever apprenticeship batch held at PAF airmen academy Korangi, Karachi.

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## syed_yusuf

PakShaheen79 said:


> Passing out of first ever apprenticeship batch held at PAF airmen academy Korangi, Karachi.


What is this ?


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## PakShaheen79

syed_yusuf said:


> What is this ?


This academy for airmen training has been set up recently. This was the first batch passing out this year.

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## fatman17

Anyone to update this?

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## Clairvoyant

fatman17 said:


> Anyone to update this?
> View attachment 695863




14 squadron operates block II JF.17's now.
The picture for 18 squadron is a picture of F.7P's from 2 squadron, also no mention of 28 squadron.

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## truthseeker2010

fatman17 said:


> Anyone to update this?
> View attachment 695863



18 sqn are called sharpshooters
3 CCS sqns missing and one correction:
Mirage , skybolt
F7, Dashings
F-16, Agressors
JF-17, Fierce dragons

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## ghazi52

Death anniversary of Legendary Air Marshal Malik Nur Khan Awan [22 February 1923 – 15 December 2011]

AIr Marshal Malik Nur Khan Awan HJ, An ultimate Legendary C-in C, Icon, Leader & A Fearless Commander who led from the front.

Air Marshal Malik Nur Khan Awan, the man who led the Air Force achieve complete superiority over the three times bigger Indian air force on the very first day of the 1965 war, had all but resigned the post the very day that he took command of Pakistan Air Force on July 23, 1965.
The list of the great icons and legacies of Pakistan cannot be completed without the name of Air Marshal (Retd) Nur Khan. However, we Pakistanis lost this legendry icon on the December 15, 2011 when he left for his final resting place. 

His services as a military man, especially during the 1965 Pakistan-India war, can never be forgotten as well as his services to raising the name of Pakistan at the international level in sports such as Squash, Hockey and Cricket and raising the status of PIA to the Best Airline in the world. He was a man of steel, a man of iron will who altered the course of everything of which he was given authority, in the positive direction.

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## ghazi52

We Will Never Forget You

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## PakShaheen79

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1339259928264007680

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1339259931879485443

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1339259933846540293

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1339259944013615107

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## Metal 0-1

Green shirt123 said:


>


There is a dedicated thread for these kinds of compilation.

Editing and music sync was good but next time please use some better and strong music. 
Like; 
West Coast Rock - The Glitch Mob 
Mind of a Beast (2014 mix) - The Glitch Mob 
Take this video as example;





This is the best video you will ever find. PDF's own @Trailer23 also used this as inspiration.

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## fatman17

Shaheen 9 ends

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## ghazi52



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## fatman17

Today, during the joint PLAAF-PAF Shaheen IX exercise, Pak AF Chief, ACM Mujahid Anwar Khan flew an air superiority mission, probably in a JF-17B Thunder. Afterwards, he said both sides were working together on a wide spectrum of inter-operable employment options. #avgeeks https://t.co/rvqsjdkzUl

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## ghazi52

*Pak Air Chief lauds Chinese Military Aviation’s potential in modern warfare*

The Frontier Post
December 22, 2020


ISLAMABAD: On Tuesday, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Air Chief Marshal Mujhahid Anwar Khan remarked that the Chinese Military Aviation Technology was at par with contemporary requirements and had full capacity to meet the challenges of modern warfare.

The PAF Press release stated that the Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force Air Chief Marshal Mujhahid Anwar Khan had a flight on an air superiority sortie in a Hi-Tech Chinese fighter aircraft during ongoing exercise Shaheen IX.

It should be noted that the joint Air Exercise Shaheen IX that begin from on Dec 09, 2020 has now entered its last phase.

On the occasion he also praised the professionalism of Peoples Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) pilots. The Air Chief also lauded the outstanding air combat skills of PLAAF pilots are reflective of robust and modern combat training program of PLAAF.

Additionally, during his address he expressed his pleasure over the conduct of the exercise; the Air Chief was of the opinion that it was heartening to see the two Air Forces inter-operating across a wide spectrum of airpower employment options.

While addressing the ceremony, Air Chief also commented that in contemporary times competition in the air domain centers not only around mastery of technology, but also on its artful application in both strategy and tactics, the press release cited.

PAF press release also quoted Air Chief adding that he said Shaheen series of exercises will go a long way in enhancing the professional skills and operational preparedness of both the Air Forces in addition to developing mutual understanding of each other’s combat skills and promoting interoperability.

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## Raider 21

Metal 0-1 said:


> There is a dedicated thread for these kinds of compilation.
> 
> Editing and music sync was good but next time please use some better and strong music.
> Like;
> West Coast Rock - The Glitch Mob
> Mind of a Beast (2014 mix) - The Glitch Mob
> Take this video as example;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is the best video you will ever find. PDF's own @Trailer23 also used this as inspiration.


The USN and USMC ball videos are another level. Most of the filming and editing are done by their pilots.

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## fatman17

Technology jump:
On left is ex-PAF embargoed F-16B Blk-15 OCU acting as test airframe for Lockheed Martin & on right is new F-16D Block-50 of Singapore AF.

This airframe is now back in Pakistan currently serving No. 9 Sqn Griffins, US released some embargoed F-16s in mid 2000s https://t.co/Q35y1ZIFQR

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## fatman17

*JF-17 Block III Fierce Dragon/Thunder*



The first *JF-17* Block III prototype (#3000) just returned to the CAC airfield from its maiden flight on December 15, 2019. As the latest variant of *JF-17*, Block III carries PAF's ambition to counter IAF's most powerful 3.5th generation fighter Rafale. The aircraft is expected to feature a more powerful engine (upgraded RD-93MA, 9,300kg class), a new AESA radar developed by NETRI/14th Institute (KLJ-7A, range 170km, track 15, engage 4) or by the 607 Institute (LKF601E, air cooled), HMDS, IRST, upgraded EW suite, new datalink, full authority digital FBW and a variety of air-to-air and air-to-ground guided weapons including PL-10E IIR guided AAM as well as PL-15E active radar homing AAM (using twin launch rails). Additional hard points are installed including ones underneath the engine air intake for ECM or targeting pod. Images of the first flight indicated the *JF-17* Block III prototype features a *J-20* style narrow frame wide-angle holographic HUD (EHUD-2?), a slightly enlarged spine, and new forward MAWS sensors behind the engine air intakes. The rear MAWS sensors were relocated to the EW compartment on top of the vertical fin as well. Otherwise the overall aerodynamic configuration remains the unchanged and the aircraft is still powered by the original RD-93 engine. A recent report (February 2020) suggested that the KLJ-7A AESA radar has been chosen by PAF. A recent report (July 2020) suggested that the Russian RD-93MA engine was selected by PAF. The latest news (December 2020) suggested that Argentinian AF has showed some interest.
_- Last Updated 12/1/20_

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## Pakistan Ka Beta

View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1341987867711721472

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1341993950878588929

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1341993983791296515

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1341994337341743104

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## Pakistan Ka Beta

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1342843958926462976

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1342844968914853888

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1342845910062137347




        View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram

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## Windjammer

@HRK @Imran Khan @Clairvoyant @Raider 21

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## Imran Khan

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 700192
> 
> 
> @HRK @Imran Khan @Clairvoyant @Raider 21


when it was taken and by which sat ???????


----------



## Windjammer

Imran Khan said:


> when it was taken and by which sat ???????


Someone just shared it on Twitter.....seems taken yesterday.

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## HRK

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 700192
> 
> 
> @HRK @Imran Khan @Clairvoyant @Raider 21


either Mirage or J-10


----------



## Imran Khan

Windjammer said:


> Someone just shared it on Twitter.....seems taken yesterday.


it can be anything but as the size of apron and size of object its size of fighter jet may be mirage or j-10 . it seems still bigger then fighter jet to me .


----------



## Raider 21

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 700192
> 
> 
> @HRK @Imran Khan @Clairvoyant @Raider 21


Possibly a Y-20

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## ghazi52

No.14 Sqd “ Shaheens “ currently known as No.14 “ Tail Choppers “. 

Squadron was equipped with F-16 in 1983, No.14 F-16s saw action against Soviet and Afghan intruders during soviet afghan war. No.14 F-16s were replaced with F-7Ps in 1993, F-16 airframes were transferred to No.11 Sqd. In 2017 No.14’s F-7Ps were replaced by JF-17 Block-2s. 

Picture F-16B #82601 was one of the No.14 airframes currently serving in No.11.

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## mingle

Raider 21 said:


> Possibly a Y-20


I feel it's Y20 size and color maybe here for evaluation as well would love to see them in PAF colors


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## Raider 21

mingle said:


> I feel it's Y20 size and color maybe here for evaluation as well would love to see them in PAF colors


No it was here for an exercise


ghazi52 said:


> No.14 Sqd “ Shaheens “ currently known as No.14 “ Tail Choppers “.
> 
> Squadron was equipped with F-16 in 1983, No.14 F-16s saw action against Soviet and Afghan intruders during soviet afghan war. No.14 F-16s were replaced with F-7Ps in 1993, F-16 airframes were transferred to No.11 Sqd. In 2017 No.14’s F-7Ps were replaced by JF-17 Block-2s.
> 
> Picture F-16B #82601 was one of the No.14 airframes currently serving in No.11.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 700253


That was the first Viper made for PAF

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## fatman17

While the Bhakt camp and Modi's IT Cell was busy last month in publishing fake news from fake websites regarding JF serviceability being down to 40%...check out what Key Publishing's (Europe's Largest Aviation Publishing Company) Editor Mark Ayton and world-renowned Russian aviation expert and prolific writer Piotr Butowski have to say regarding IAF's Su-30 fleet serviceability in their latest 100-page bookazine on the Sukhoi this year. What goes around comes around!

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## fatman17

fatman17 said:


> While the Bhakt camp and Modi's IT Cell was busy last month in publishing fake news from fake websites regarding JF serviceability being down to 40%...check out what Key Publishing's (Europe's Largest Aviation Publishing Company) Editor Mark Ayton and world-renowned Russian aviation expert and prolific writer Piotr Butowski have to say regarding IAF's Su-30 fleet serviceability in their latest 100-page bookazine on the Sukhoi this year. What goes around comes around!


FYI

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## Ahmet Pasha

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 700192
> 
> 
> @HRK @Imran Khan @Clairvoyant @Raider 21


Kinda looks like Y20 to me note the raised tail section. Also a fighter would appear much smaller as well.


----------



## ghazi52

Painting dedicated to Air Cmdr (Retd) Mustansar, depicts his favorite aircrafts (C130 and F-86). T-6 Harvard and Boeing 747 depicts the first and the last aircraft he flew in his flying career.

20 X 17 inches (unframed) - Watercolors 

Rehan Siraj

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## aamirzs



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## ghazi52

President Ayub Khan Elevates PAF College Risalpur To Academy - January 1967.

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## Yasser76

Aryeih Leib said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1343564483583766530



1) This is the PAF thread
2) This is a Twitter link to a dodgy news site
3) Said dodgy news site quotes an unnamed source
4) EU Labs just exposed a massive Indian fake news operation
5) Your ban coming soon I imagine...

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## Aryeih Leib

Yasser76 said:


> 1) This is the PAF thread
> 2) This is a Twitter link to a dodgy news site
> 3) Said dodgy news site quotes an unnamed source
> 4) EU Labs just exposed a massive Indian fake news operation
> 5) Your ban coming soon I imagine...



I didn't know where to post it as I see there is no ISI related thread . Still apologise . And that thing I shared is making quiet noise in amerika


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## Yasser76

Aryeih Leib said:


> I didn't know where to post it as I see there is no ISI related thread . Still apologise . And that thing I shared is making quiet noise in amerika



No, it is not, Not a single major US website or news channel has aired the BS conspiracy theory. Please prove otherwise or simply stop posting garbage on here, it ruins the thread.

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## fatman17

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan Aeronautical Complex Karma delivered 14 dual-seat JF-17B aircraft to Pakistan Air Force (PAF),

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## fatman17

PAF no 18 Sharpshooters reloading with our very own JF-17 Thunder Bravos
Photo by Zohaib Malik 
.
.
#paf #PakistanAirForce #ranasuhaib #aviation #jf17 #jf17thunder #sharpshooters https://t.co/3UtvVCVrK9

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## fatman17

PAKISTAN AERONAUTICAL COMPLEX
KAMRA
PUNJAB
0900 Hours

The Chief of Air Staff of Pakistan Air Force ACM Mujahid Anwar Khan has announced that #Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) has officially started production of the 4+ Generation JF-17 Thunder Block III #PrideOfPakJF17 https://t.co/6FBy6J1z2Y

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## fatman17

fatman17 said:


> PAKISTAN AERONAUTICAL COMPLEX
> KAMRA
> PUNJAB
> 0900 Hours
> 
> The Chief of Air Staff of Pakistan Air Force ACM Mujahid Anwar Khan has announced that #Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) has officially started production of the 4+ Generation JF-17 Thunder Block III #PrideOfPakJF17 https://t.co/6FBy6J1z2Y
> View attachment 701448
> View attachment 701449
> View attachment 701450
> View attachment 701451


advanced fighter aircraft, in a ceremony here today. The Chief of Air Staff also inaugurated the JF-17A Block III’s production and integration facility at PAC Kamra.
The #Pakistan Air Force was also handed over a squadron of 14 JF-17B Block II aircraft, by the PAC. The induction https://t.co/lSJjPCQE9K

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## fatman17

fatman17 said:


> advanced fighter aircraft, in a ceremony here today. The Chief of Air Staff also inaugurated the JF-17A Block III’s production and integration facility at PAC Kamra.
> The #Pakistan Air Force was also handed over a squadron of 14 JF-17B Block II aircraft, by the PAC. The induction https://t.co/lSJjPCQE9K
> View attachment 701452


ceremony was attended by Chief of Air Staff and #China & #Nigeria’s ambassadors.
#PrideOfPakJF17 
Last year, PAC officially closed down production of the JF-17A Block II variant and started work on the JF-17B Block II variant, producing 8 of them in 2019 in just 5 months. https://t.co/QuJ43EJu5f

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## fatman17

fatman17 said:


> ceremony was attended by Chief of Air Staff and #China & #Nigeria’s ambassadors.
> #PrideOfPakJF17
> Last year, PAC officially closed down production of the JF-17A Block II variant and started work on the JF-17B Block II variant, producing 8 of them in 2019 in just 5 months. https://t.co/QuJ43EJu5f
> View attachment 701453


Now JF-17A Block III production has started with the first Block III variant to be inducted in early to mid 2021.
The JF-17A Thunder Block III is an advanced 4+ generation fighter, armed with the latest radars, sensors, electronic warfare equipment, cockpit ergonomics, HUD, MAWS, https://t.co/6VCDHOZvCj

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## fatman17

fatman17 said:


> Now JF-17A Block III production has started with the first Block III variant to be inducted in early to mid 2021.
> The JF-17A Thunder Block III is an advanced 4+ generation fighter, armed with the latest radars, sensors, electronic warfare equipment, cockpit ergonomics, HUD, MAWS, https://t.co/6VCDHOZvCj


HMD and a strengthened structure using more advanced composites, among other various upgrades including an advanced variant of the RD-93 engine, the RD-93MA. The fighter will also feature the most capable and longest-range air-to-air missile in the world, the PL-15 BVR missile https://t.co/Y6cPHNURXC

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## ghazi52

The Chief of Air Staff of The Pakistan Air Force Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan has announced that Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) has officially started production of the 4++ Generation JF-17A Thunder Block III advanced fighter aircraft, in a ceremony here today. The Chief of Air Staff also inaugurated the JF-17A Block III’s production and integration facility at PAC Kamra.

The Pakistan Air Force was also handed over a squadron of 14 JF-17B Block II aircraft, by the PAC. The induction ceremony was attended by Chief of Air Staff, the Chinese ambassador and the Nigerian ambassador.

Last year, PAC officially closed down production of the JF-17A Block II variant and started work on the JF-17B Block II variant, producing 8 of them in 2019 in just 5 months. Now JF-17A Block III production has started with the first Block III variant to be inducted in early to mid 2021.

The JF-17A Thunder Block III is an advanced 4+ generation fighter, armed with the latest radars, sensors, electronic warfare equipment, cockpit ergonomics, HUD, MAWS, HMD and a strengthened structure using more advanced composites. The fighter will feature an advanced variant of the RD-93 engine previously used, the RD-93MA.

The fighter will also feature the most capable and longest-range air-to-air missile in the world, the PL-15 BVR missile which only China currently uses. The PL-15 outranges the upcoming Indian Rafale’s upcoming Meteor BVR missiles by over 100 kilometres and America’s latest BVR missile the AIM-120D by over 120 kilometres. The fighter will also feature a new high off-boresight IR missile, the PL-10.

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## Pakistan Ka Beta

JF-17 DUAL-SEAT COMPLETION & BLOCK-III COMMENCEMENT CEREMONY HELD AT KAMRA

30 December, 2020: Pakistan Aeronautical Complex celebrated the completion of dual-seat JF-17 aircraft for PAF, and formally launched the production work of Block-III JF-17 aircraft in an inspiring ceremony held at Kamra today. Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force, was the Chief Guest of the ceremony while Ambassador of Peoples’ Republic of China in Pakistan, H.E. Mr. Nong Rong attended as guest of honour. Speaking on the occasion, Air Chief lauded the efforts of PAC Kamra in completing aircraft production targets for 2020 despite challenges posed by the Covid-19 pandemic. He emphasized the need of indigenization and self-reliance in military hardware and praised initiatives of PAC Kamra for design, development, manufacturing, and overhaul of aerial warfare assets. He also applauded the collaboration between aviation industries of Pakistan and China. Ambassador of Peoples’ Republic of China in Pakistan, H.E. Mr. Nong Rong, highlighted JF-17 program as a shining example of cooperation between two countries whereby both countries have diligently collaborated over the last two decades to bring a joint venture from drawing board to successful materialization. He praised the project teams for overcoming challenges and achieving milestones over the years. He assured of continued support by China for ongoing and future joint ventures in all domains. *The dual-seat JF-17 aircraft are fully mission capable for entire spectrum of combat operations and will boost PAF’s operational readiness besides fulfilling the training needs of PAF. Block-III is the most advanced JF-17 variant and represents the cutting edge of aerospace technology and will enable PAF to maintain credible deterrence under the evolving geopolitical environment. On the occasion, PAC Kamra also displayed JF-17 and Super Mushshak aircraft produced by its Aircraft manufacturing Factory for export to several countries. Chief of the Air Staff also formally inaugurated a purpose-built hangar built to overhaul JF-17 aircraft. Equipped with latest facilities and equipment, the hangar will assure in-country lifecycle support for the aircraft.The ceremony was held under strict Covid-19 protocols with social distancing at all events. *










__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1344311326898876418

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1344312599371018241

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1344314009244282881


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1344315068259905536





        View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram

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## Yasser76

36 seconds in they walk past a JF-17 with squadron tail logo, anyone know which unit this is?


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## m52k85

Yasser76 said:


> 36 seconds in they walk past a JF-17 with squadron tail logo, anyone know which unit this is?


No.28 Phoenix

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## Yasser76

m52k85 said:


> No.28 Phoenix



Thank you

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## ghazi52

*PAF inducts 14 dual-seat JF-17 aircraft into its fleet*


Major progress made in air defense as production of state-of-the-art JF-17 Thunder Block 3 also begins


December 30, 2020





PHOTO: EXPRESS

*ISLAMABAD: *The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) marked a major progress in its national air defense arsenal as it announced beginning the production of the state-of-the-art JF-17 Thunder Block 3 fighter jets, while also acquiring 14 dual-seat JF-17 aircraft.

According to reports, the JF-17 Thunder Block 3 of the PAF will be operational with a new radar ,and will be better than the Raphael aircraft acquired by India.

At the same time, 14 dual-seat aircraft, manufactured with Pak-China cooperation were also handed over to the PAF. These will also be used for trainings.


Speaking during the induction ceremony, Chinese Ambassador Nong Rong said that China congratulates Pakistan for the 17th Block-II Dual Seat joining its air defense fleet.

“Pakistan Air Force Block III is a very important project,” he said, adding “Cooperation in defense production is an example of our friendship.”

Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan also informed of the inclusion of the dual-seat JF-17 aircraft in the air force's fleet.

The air chief thanked China for helping Pakistan in achieving this milestone.

Despite its meagre defense budget, Pakistan's Kamra Complex has delivered more than 100 home-made JF-17 Block One and Block Two aircraft to the Pakistan Air Force since November 2009.

In the recent Pak-India tensions, this aircraft played an important role in the national defense by shooting down two superior Indian technology aircraft along the Line of Control (LoC).

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## Windjammer

Interesting Twin Tail Bird Present in PAC Kamra Today.

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## TsAr

Windjammer said:


> Interesting Twin Tail Bird Present in PAC Kamra Today.
> 
> View attachment 701578


a UAV

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## HRK

Windjammer said:


> Interesting Twin Tail Bird Present in PAC Kamra Today.
> 
> View attachment 701578


Video ?


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## Windjammer

HRK said:


> Video ?


No i just received the images.

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## HRK

Windjammer said:


> No i just received the images.
> 
> View attachment 701592


it appear similar to the model shown earlier 





it does not look as big as any other UAV with this design so I doubt it will carry weapon like WL, CH-4 or ANKA UAV .... and as per the previous pic which you shared I think it will have operational range with limited DATA link range of *>*250 km as satellite linking capability seems missing at least at this version.

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## Amaa'n

HRK said:


> it appear similar to the model shown earlier
> View attachment 701595
> 
> 
> it does not look as big as any other UAV with this design so I doubt it will carry weapon like WL, CH-4 or ANKA UAV .... and as per the previous pic which you shared I think it will have operational range with limited DATA link range of *>*250 km as satellite linking capability seems missing at least at this version.


bhai that pic windy shared....that drone is huge....look at the tail size for it and this one in your photo....its like baray mian aur chotay mian

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## Windjammer

HRK said:


> it appear similar to the model shown earlier
> View attachment 701595
> 
> 
> it does not look as big as any other UAV with this design so I doubt it will carry weapon like WL, CH-4 or ANKA UAV .... and as per the previous pic which you shared I think it will have operational range with limited DATA link range of *>*250 km as satellite linking capability seems missing at least at this version.


No yaara, it can't be this particular vehicle, here people standing behind it are towering above it where as in the image i shared, albeit the vehicle is in the back ground yet it seems to be standing high over the figures.

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## Path-Finder

Windjammer said:


> Interesting Twin Tail Bird Present in PAC Kamra Today.
> 
> View attachment 701578





Windjammer said:


> No i just received the images.
> 
> View attachment 701592



Mukhtariya gal wad gai ah. This is a bomb shell, or bumb shell.
maybe its the Wing Long II

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## MIRauf

Seems to be a Chinese made UCAV ( CH-4 ), Wing Long has more slanted rudders.

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## ghazi52

Turkish Super Mushshak Aircraft ready for DELIVERY at Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, PAC #Kamra.
Turkey ordered 52 Super Mushshak from Pakistan.

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## HRK

Foxtrot Alpha said:


> bhai that pic windy shared....that drone is huge....look at the tail size for it and this one in your photo....its like baray mian aur chotay mian





Windjammer said:


> No yaara, it can't be this particular vehicle, here people standing behind it are towering above it where as in the image i shared, albeit the vehicle is in the back ground yet it seems to be standing high over the figures.
> 
> View attachment 701596


I may be wrong but I think you people are confusing pic of model which I shared in my post, obviously that model was not built at 1:1 ratio to the original UAV shown in pic shared by windjamer.

I shared that pic only because it resemble with design and shows that this UAV is new and not imported one as reported by some media outlets nowadays that Pakistan and China have signed contract for 50 UAVs.

Secondly as for the size again I may be wrong or it is because of the angle at which pic is taken but for any reason it appear that the height of this UAV is shorter then Mushak Trainer as wing of Mushak trainer appear higher than the fuselage of UAV ....

So it is obviously bigger than Burraq UCAV but in my opinion smaller in comparison of Wing long or CH UAVs ....

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Windjammer said:


> Interesting Twin Tail Bird Present in PAC Kamra Today.
> 
> View attachment 701578


@JamD

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## JamD

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> @JamD


Just saw this. Azm's MALE.


Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> @JamD


Also seems like an original design so that's good to see.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

JamD said:


> Just saw this. Azm's MALE.
> 
> Also seems like an original design so that's good to see.


It'll be interesting to see what's powering this UAV. I hope they're by-passing pistons and going straight to a turboprop (e.g., from Ukraine). It could mean a lot for the design's actual payload, range and endurance.

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## JamD

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It'll be interesting to see what's powering this UAV. I hope they're by-passing pistons and going straight to a turboprop (e.g., from Ukraine). It could mean a lot for the design's actual payload, range and endurance.


that seems unlikely to me considering its mission and size and PAC.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

JamD said:


> that seems unlikely to me considering its mission and size and PAC.


I swear if this is the reason why the PN and PAF still end up importing MALE UAVs...

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## razgriz19

JamD said:


> Just saw this. Azm's MALE.
> 
> Also seems like an original design so that's good to see.


CH-4 most likely. Those vertical stabilizers look exactly like CH-4.


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## fatman17

It's F17B induction and JF17 Block 3 commencement day.

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## fatman17

Currently Pakistan has:-
49 JF-17A Block Is
60 JF-17A Block IIs
26 JF-17B Block IIs
2 JF-17A Block III prototypes

Pakistan Air Force currently now has 137 JF-17 Thunders https://t.co/r8pMqTf84S

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## Windjammer



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## Ali_Baba

fatman17 said:


> Currently Pakistan has:-
> 49 JF-17A Block Is
> 60 JF-17A Block IIs
> 26 JF-17B Block IIs
> 2 JF-17A Block III prototypes
> 
> Pakistan Air Force currently now has 137 JF-17 Thunders https://t.co/r8pMqTf84S



That makes it 212 BVR fighters which currently outclass everything in the BVR space that India fields at an operational level ( Rafales / Meteors will take some time.. despite the PR spin by IAF ..). No wonder the IAF chief is talking so much crap recently.

That of course, excludes what people used to say about what ever "semi-active" BVR capability the Mirage III/V's may pocess or not(i am in the not camp..).

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## ghazi52

* F-86 SABRES IN THE FRONT ROW AND BRISTOL TYPE 170 FREIGHTERS IN THE BACK ROW (MARIPUR AIR BASE




)




*

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## Bratva

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It'll be interesting to see what's powering this UAV. I hope they're by-passing pistons and going straight to a turboprop (e.g., from Ukraine). It could mean a lot for the design's actual payload, range and endurance.





JamD said:


> that seems unlikely to me considering its mission and size and PAC.

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## S A L M A N.

Ali_Baba said:


> That makes it 212 BVR fighters which currently outclass everything in the BVR space that India fields at an operational level ( Rafales / Meteors will take some time.. despite the PR spin by IAF ..). No wonder the IAF chief is talking so much crap recently.
> 
> That of course, excludes what people used to say about what ever "semi-active" BVR capability the Mirage III/V's may pocess or not(i am in the not camp..).



And 4-5 years down the line, we can expect to add 50 Block-IIIA's to the current fleet. For a total of approximately 260 BVR-capable fighters and a network-centric capability that is battle-tested and in a cycle of continuous improvement, the PAF will maintain the upper hand and would remain capable of Swift Retort-style ops until the 2040-50s.

Beyond that, we can expect the Azm NGFA to reach fruition and the associated capability boost that will bring forth. The Azm NGFA will literally reinvent the fabric of the service - everything from tactics to doctrine, training, maintenance and logistics will have to be transformed.

The cutting edge of the PAF will be maintained, that much we can be absolutely certain of.

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## HRK

Bratva said:


>


its some variant of Lycoming twin rotor blade piston engine.


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## Ali_Baba

HRK said:


> its some variant of Lycoming twin rotor blade piston engine.



The same as what is inside the Mushtaq trainer ?

Suprised to see a UAV this advanced in its development lifecycle. Early prototype it seems. The purchase of Wing Long II does suggest it might be a few years before it enters an operational capacity.









PAC MFI-17 Mushshak - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





At has a Textron Lycoming IO-360-A1B6 engine. 

_" Pakistan Aeronautical Complex unveiled a light attack variant of the Super Mushshak in March 2019. The aircraft is capable of launching Barq laser-guided and anti-tank missiles.[1][2][3] "_

So PAC has experience in both the engine, and design modifications to launch missiles.

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## HRK

Ali_Baba said:


> The same as what is inside the Mushtaq trainer ?
> 
> Suprised to see a UAV this advanced in its development lifecycle. Early prototype it seems. The purchase of Wing Long II does suggest it might be a few years before it enters an operational capacity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PAC MFI-17 Mushshak - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At has a Textron Lycoming IO-360-A1B6 engine.
> 
> _" Pakistan Aeronautical Complex unveiled a light attack variant of the Super Mushshak in March 2019. The aircraft is capable of launching Barq laser-guided and anti-tank missiles.[1][2][3] "_
> 
> So PAC has experience in both the engine, and design modifications to launch missiles.


IF this engine is fitted with this UAV then to be honest it is little bit of disappointment

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## m52k85

m52k85 said:


> Thanks Mianwali, Minhas, Masroor so many *M*s but only one *R*afiqui. I'll go ahead and indulge with the latest clue, its turning out to be a good exercise in code breaking
> 
> "A squadron to move out from *R *and shift to *M.*"
> Mirage squadron from *R*afique to *M*asroor. (will make room for a previously missing AS element at Rafiqui and will mean JFs have another home base)
> 
> "The squadron moving out of *R *to be replaced by a squadron from *M*"
> Mirage squadron moving out of *R*afique replaced by no.14 from *M*inhas
> 
> "The squadron moving out of *M *to be replaced by Sharp Shooters (I would put M here as well but that would cause too much confusion)":
> no.14 moving out frm *M*inhas replaced by No. 18 Sharpshooters from *M*ianwali
> 
> So obviously I was wrong about no.14 going to Skardu and nothing moving out from Rafiqui.
> 
> What will be interesting is if as @Tipu7 rumored, a mirage squadron is also simultaneously converted to JF. Of the 110 As and 8 Bs accepted and available at PAF the numbers are certainly there.
> 
> P.S. please dont feel you have to respond if that means giving out too much info, Im merely documenting my deductive skills to check against when things become public.











Pakistan JF-17 Thunder unit shuffles


Pakistan JF-17 Thunder unit shuffles The Pakistan Fiza'ya (Pakistan Air Force) is in the process of reshuffling some of its assets. The influx of more JF-17 Thunder fighter aircraf...




www.scramble.nl





Ok so, the above confirms what @Hodor had hinted at and I had interpreted a few months back. However, one additional piece in the above article is that no.2 Minhasians have moved to Shehbaz. This is where it gets interesting and here is my prediction:

Next squadron to re-equip with Jf-17 (after no.18) will be one of the Mirage squadrons at Masroor (nos. 7,8 or 22). Reason being Masroor without a Jf-17 squadron in anti-ship role doesn't make sense. This means all the F-7s will not be going out before the Mirages, the PGs will stay for a while (probably replaced only when the Block-IIIs start coming or their is a surprise J-10 induction). The re-equipment will likely start around April if it has not already.

My bet will be no.8 will re-equip since they are the oldest of mirages and employed in sea role. Their exocets will continue to be carried by PN helicopters.

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## mingle

m52k85 said:


> Pakistan JF-17 Thunder unit shuffles
> 
> 
> Pakistan JF-17 Thunder unit shuffles The Pakistan Fiza'ya (Pakistan Air Force) is in the process of reshuffling some of its assets. The influx of more JF-17 Thunder fighter aircraf...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.scramble.nl
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ok so, the above confirms what @Hodor had hinted at and I had interpreted a few months back. However, one additional piece in the above article is that no.2 Minhasians have moved to Shehbaz. This is where it gets interesting and here is my prediction:
> 
> Next squadron to re-equip with Jf-17 (after no.18) will be one of the Mirage squadrons at Masroor (nos. 7,8 or 22). Reason being Masroor without a Jf-17 squadron in anti-ship role doesn't make sense. This means all the F-7s will not be going out before the Mirages, the PGs will stay for a while (probably replaced only when the Block-IIIs start coming or their is a surprise J-10 induction). The re-equipment will likely start around April if it has not already.
> 
> My bet will be no.8 will re-equip since they are the oldest of mirages and employed in sea role. Their exocets will continue to be carried by PN helicopters.


PAF should look into J10 as omni role medium category plane they are ideal replacement for our Mirages even start with 2 Sqdn 36 plane


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## PDF

HRK said:


> IF this engine is fitted with this UAV then to be honest it is little bit of disappointment


The UAV might have a Western Engine including from U.S.

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## HRK

PDF said:


> The UAV might have a Western Engine including from U.S.


Lycoming is a US made engine but honestly I don't think the photo was showing Lycoming engine integrated with Azm UAV


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## ghazi52



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## Iceman2

m52k85 said:


> Pakistan JF-17 Thunder unit shuffles
> 
> 
> Pakistan JF-17 Thunder unit shuffles The Pakistan Fiza'ya (Pakistan Air Force) is in the process of reshuffling some of its assets. The influx of more JF-17 Thunder fighter aircraf...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.scramble.nl
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ok so, the above confirms what @Hodor had hinted at and I had interpreted a few months back. However, one additional piece in the above article is that no.2 Minhasians have moved to Shehbaz. This is where it gets interesting and here is my prediction:
> 
> Next squadron to re-equip with Jf-17 (after no.18) will be one of the Mirage squadrons at Masroor (nos. 7,8 or 22). Reason being Masroor without a Jf-17 squadron in anti-ship role doesn't make sense. This means all the F-7s will not be going out before the Mirages, the PGs will stay for a while (probably replaced only when the Block-IIIs start coming or their is a surprise J-10 induction). The re-equipment will likely start around April if it has not already.
> 
> My bet will be no.8 will re-equip since they are the oldest of mirages and employed in sea role. Their exocets will continue to be carried by PN helicopters.




Which squadron will j-10 be equipped to?


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## m52k85

Iceman2 said:


> Which squadron will j-10 be equipped to?


Sorry no idea


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## Silicon0000

Iceman2 said:


> Which squadron will j-10 be equipped to?



My guess if J10 comes to PAF it will be a replace of mirages and might base near water.


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## ghazi52

Three Of The Five Ex-Jordanian F-16s Delivered To The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) On April 27, 2014 Arrive At PAF Base Mushaf-Sargodha Accompanied By Two PAF Mirages.

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## ghazi52

*Fantastic Four Of PAF.*

© A.Mateen Aviation Photography

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## fatman17

*JF-17 Block III Fierce Dragon/Thunder
*


A *JF-17* Block III prototype was taking off from the CAC airfield, probably equipped for the first time with an AESA radar. As the latest variant of *JF-17*, Block III carries PAF's ambition to counter the threat from IAF's most powerful 3.5th generation fighter Rafale. The aircraft is expected to feature a more powerful engine (upgraded RD-93MA, 9,300kg class), a new AESA radar developed by NETRI/14th Institute (KLJ-7A, range 170km, track 15, engage 4) or by the 607 Institute (LKF601E, air cooled), HMDS, IRST, upgraded EW suite, new datalink, full authority digital FBW and a variety of air-to-air and air-to-ground guided weapons including PL-10E IIR guided AAM as well as PL-15E active radar homing AAM (using twin launch rails). Additional hard points are installed including ones underneath the engine air intake for ECM or targeting pod. The maiden flight of the #3000 prototype took place on December 15, 2019. Images of that flight indicated the *JF-17* Block III prototype features a *J-20* style narrow frame wide-angle holographic HUD (EHUD-2?), a slightly enlarged spine, and new forward MAWS sensors behind the engine air intakes. The rear MAWS sensors were relocated to the EW compartment on top of the vertical fin as well. Otherwise the overall aerodynamic configuration remains the unchanged and the aircraft is still powered by the original RD-93 engine. A recent report (February 2020) suggested that the KLJ-7A AESA radar has been chosen by PAF. A recent report (July 2020) suggested that the Russian RD-93MA engine was selected by PAF. It was reported in December 2020 that Argentinian AF has showed some interest. PAC formally launched the production work of Block III on December 30, 2020.
_- Last Updated 1/7/21_


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## truthfollower

fatman17 said:


> *JF-17 Block III Fierce Dragon/Thunder*
> 
> 
> 
> A *JF-17* Block III prototype was taking off from the CAC airfield, probably equipped for the first time with an AESA radar. As the latest variant of *JF-17*, Block III carries PAF's ambition to counter the threat from IAF's most powerful 3.5th generation fighter Rafale. The aircraft is expected to feature a more powerful engine (upgraded RD-93MA, 9,300kg class), a new AESA radar developed by NETRI/14th Institute (KLJ-7A, range 170km, track 15, engage 4) or by the 607 Institute (LKF601E, air cooled), HMDS, IRST, upgraded EW suite, new datalink, full authority digital FBW and a variety of air-to-air and air-to-ground guided weapons including PL-10E IIR guided AAM as well as PL-15E active radar homing AAM (using twin launch rails). Additional hard points are installed including ones underneath the engine air intake for ECM or targeting pod. The maiden flight of the #3000 prototype took place on December 15, 2019. Images of that flight indicated the *JF-17* Block III prototype features a *J-20* style narrow frame wide-angle holographic HUD (EHUD-2?), a slightly enlarged spine, and new forward MAWS sensors behind the engine air intakes. The rear MAWS sensors were relocated to the EW compartment on top of the vertical fin as well. Otherwise the overall aerodynamic configuration remains the unchanged and the aircraft is still powered by the original RD-93 engine. A recent report (February 2020) suggested that the KLJ-7A AESA radar has been chosen by PAF. A recent report (July 2020) suggested that the Russian RD-93MA engine was selected by PAF. It was reported in December 2020 that Argentinian AF has showed some interest. PAC formally launched the production work of Block III on December 30, 2020.
> _- Last Updated 1/7/21_


is there new helmet with ability to fire missiles? where pilot can see the target?

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## fatman17

truthfollower said:


> is there new helmet with ability to fire missiles? where pilot can see the target?


I believe so

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## ziaulislam

HRK said:


> IF this engine is fitted with this UAV then to be honest it is little bit of disappointment


i am new this, what did you expected? turboprop?

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## HRK

ziaulislam said:


> i am new this, what did you expected? turboprop?


yes


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## Zarvan

Ali_Baba said:


> The same as what is inside the Mushtaq trainer ?
> 
> Suprised to see a UAV this advanced in its development lifecycle. Early prototype it seems. The purchase of Wing Long II does suggest it might be a few years before it enters an operational capacity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PAC MFI-17 Mushshak - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At has a Textron Lycoming IO-360-A1B6 engine.
> 
> _" Pakistan Aeronautical Complex unveiled a light attack variant of the Super Mushshak in March 2019. The aircraft is capable of launching Barq laser-guided and anti-tank missiles.[1][2][3] "_
> 
> So PAC has experience in both the engine, and design modifications to launch missiles.


WING LONG II purchase if has been made which my sources suggest is not the case. Still that purchase will have nothing to do with speed of development of our MALE UAV.


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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52

Pakistan Air Force - PAF Hospital located at Sector E-9 Islamabad
And yes its open for the general Public anyone can visit.

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## fatman17

ghazi52 said:


> Pakistan Air Force - PAF Hospital located at Sector E-9 Islamabad
> And yes its open for the general Public anyone can visit.
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 705865
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 705866
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 705867


Why couldn't they construct a simple building?

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## fatman17

Pak AF Commander, ACM Mujahid Anwar Khan visited the Azerbaijan AF Chief today. The AAF acquired ten MFI-17 Super Mushshaks a couple of years back, so is JF-17 Block III now on the agenda? With KLJ-7A AESA radar and more capable weapons plus low price it would be a good option. https://t.co/L6klH5nvSw

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## Ali_Baba

It would be a good option as the JF17 has been designed to take on and beat the Su-30 series, which Armenia also operates. Block III is picking up alot of interest right now. Hopefully PAF remembers that it needs to make alot for itself, in addition to sales!

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## GriffinsRule

fatman17 said:


> Why couldn't they construct a simple building?


Costs about the same to design a shitty building vs a nicer one

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## FuturePAF

Ali_Baba said:


> It would be a good option as the JF17 has been designed to take on and beat the Su-30 series, which Armenia also operates. Block III is picking up alot of interest right now. Hopefully PAF remembers that it needs to make alot for itself, in addition to sales!



If the demand goes up significantly with foreign sales; they could open up a second line to meet the demand. I’m sure PAC and CAC would be glad to accommodate the orders.


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## ziaulislam

HRK said:


> yes


what benefit does turboprop provide as compared to piston engine?

aren't piston engines more efficient ? cost effective ?


Zarvan said:


> WING LONG II purchase if has been made which my sources suggest is not the case. Still that purchase will have nothing to do with speed of development of our MALE UAV.


we need 50+ drones now drones with payload and very long endurance to provide ground support to our troops in Baluchistan while we need to up the FALCO operations in Baluchistan for close surveillance 

the boarder and smuggling HAS to stop

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## HRK

ziaulislam said:


> what benefit does turboprop provide as compared to piston engine?
> 
> aren't piston engines more efficient ? cost effective ?


reliability, fuel efficiency and higher power the last 2 will translate into increase in endurance, speed & payload carrying capability at higher altitude

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## fatman17

GriffinsRule said:


> Costs about the same to design a shitty building vs a nicer one


Not so sure about that


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## ziaulislam

We should look for partner and do JV in drones with full combat systems rather then importing everything ..
We saw what happened to turkey when they did that


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## fatman17

JF-17 Thunder Block-III | What we know so far | Thread 

1: 3 axis FBW
2: AESA radar, unknown type.
3: Upgraded powerplant (RD-93MA?)
4: 8x Hard points
5: Reinforced wing roots to carry hard hitting 2000lb munitions, Inc cruise missiles.
6: Forward looking MAWRs like F-15SA.

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## fatman17

fatman17 said:


> JF-17 Thunder Block-III | What we know so far | Thread
> 
> 1: 3 axis FBW
> 2: AESA radar, unknown type.
> 3: Upgraded powerplant (RD-93MA?)
> 4: 8x Hard points
> 5: Reinforced wing roots to carry hard hitting 2000lb munitions, Inc cruise missiles.
> 6: Forward looking MAWRs like F-15SA.
> View attachment 706464


7: Integrated Electronic Warfare & Countermeasures with updated APU.

8: Upgraded Cockpit, wide area HUD, Data link, HMS?

9: LED landing gear lights, Night air Refueling lights.

10: Digital Engineering, easier hanger maintainablity.

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## fatman17

fatman17 said:


> 7: Integrated Electronic Warfare & Countermeasures with updated APU.
> 
> 8: Upgraded Cockpit, wide area HUD, Data link, HMS?
> 
> 9: LED landing gear lights, Night air Refueling lights.
> 
> 10: Digital Engineering, easier hanger maintainablity.


Increased Capabilities:

1: Overall increase in flight performance due to higher thrust and FBW.

2: Increased range due to super sonic tanks and night time air Refueling.

3: Capable of carrying heavy bunker buster munitions, cruise missiles, LGBs, GPS guided weapons.

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## fatman17

fatman17 said:


> Increased Capabilities:
> 
> 1: Overall increase in flight performance due to higher thrust and FBW.
> 
> 2: Increased range due to super sonic tanks and night time air Refueling.
> 
> 3: Capable of carrying heavy bunker buster munitions, cruise missiles, LGBs, GPS guided weapons.


4: Extended Range BVRAAMs.

5: High speed data sharing highway with all C4ISR assets including UAVs. 

6: All aspect, High Off Bore Sighted Missiles.

7: DFRM, toed decoy based EW and SP system is likely to be integrated.

8: Long range AESA radar gives Mini AWACS capability.

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## fatman17

fatman17 said:


> 4: Extended Range BVRAAMs.
> 
> 5: High speed data sharing highway with all C4ISR assets including UAVs.
> 
> 6: All aspect, High Off Bore Sighted Missiles.
> 
> 7: DFRM, toed decoy based EW and SP system is likely to be integrated.
> 
> 8: Long range AESA radar gives Mini AWACS capability.


9: Software is likely going to be upgraded, offering more autonomy.

10: It will be a proper 4.5 gen aircraft, surpassing the performance of F-16s, currently in [emoji1191] service in key domains.

Feel free to share this thread and your comments - Cheers.

- Shahid

And we still want J10C?

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## SQ8

fatman17 said:


> 9: Software is likely going to be upgraded, offering more autonomy.
> 
> 10: It will be a proper 4.5 gen aircraft, surpassing the performance of F-16s, currently in [emoji1191] service in key domains.
> 
> Feel free to share this thread and your comments - Cheers.
> 
> - Shahid
> 
> And we *still want J10C?*


Fuel fraction -> range - >deep strike.
Doesn’t matter what aircraft.
If Pakistan were allowed to integrate SOM or other stand off systems with the viper, the J-10C is irrelevant.

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## Ali_Baba

Is there a reason why you posted all this over 6 different posts on the same thread, and not as a single post ???????


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## VkdIndian

fatman17 said:


> And we still want J10C?


Considering the performance upgrades that the latest JF-17 include, is China considering to induct it in its Air Force? 
If all the inclusions are there as mentioned then it would be a potent platform and one of the best in this part of the world.

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## The Eagle

VkdIndian said:


> Considering the performance upgrades that the latest JF-17 include, is China considering to induct it in its Air Force?
> If all the inclusions are there as mentioned then it would be a potent platform and one of the best in this part of the world.



It has been discussed for thousands of times previously but since you are new here, please go through JF-17 threads in particular section to understand the reason. This thread is designated specifically for PAF News Discussion. JF-17 is not required by China given the geographical scenario and moreover, PLAAF do have many of their own jets. Your argument as such is nothing more than a primary level enquiry so that warrants search for your knowledge for which, you will need to do it by yourself by going through different threads and update yourself which will save us from repetition of irrelevant argument.

Regards,

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## ghazi52



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## MastanKhan

VkdIndian said:


> Considering the performance upgrades that the latest JF-17 include, is China considering to induct it in its Air Force?
> If all the inclusions are there as mentioned then it would be a potent platform and one of the best in this part of the world.



Hi,

Potency is an issue but a secondary one---primary issue is does the size meet the geography / terrain that it is going to be used in---& the enemy that it is going to be used against.

Another issue is what the aircraft size projects---the mind game---.

The JF17 SIZE does not meet the criteria of the plaaf---but otoh---it satisfies the need of the Paf---. Smaller aircraft---low in maintenance cost---can have in larger numbers---carries a load towards lighter side of the spectrum.

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## fatman17

VkdIndian said:


> Considering the performance upgrades that the latest JF-17 include, is China considering to induct it in its Air Force?
> If all the inclusions are there as mentioned then it would be a potent platform and one of the best in this part of the world.


China has made its decisions, J10 and J20.

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## The Eagle

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1350464161323622403

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1350465008367513601

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## ghazi52



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## fatman17



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## ghazi52

FT-5

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## ghazi52



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## ziaulislam

fatman17 said:


> 9: Software is likely going to be upgraded, offering more autonomy.
> 
> 10: It will be a proper 4.5 gen aircraft, surpassing the performance of F-16s, currently in [emoji1191] service in key domains.
> 
> Feel free to share this thread and your comments - Cheers.
> 
> - Shahid
> 
> And we still want J10C?


if we get rd93ma with its 15% thrust increase, then j10c will be redundant,
(unless of course the deal is too sweat to refuse, zero financing interest, and same cost as PLAAF)

i would rather want PAF to focus on Azm and j31/j35 to truly check mate IAF like we did with block 52 12 years ago


fatman17 said:


> JF-17 Thunder Block-III | What we know so far | Thread
> 
> 1: 3 axis FBW
> 2: AESA radar, unknown type.
> 3: Upgraded powerplant (RD-93MA?)
> 4: 8x Hard points
> 5: Reinforced wing roots to carry hard hitting 2000lb munitions, Inc cruise missiles.
> 6: Forward looking MAWRs like F-15SA.
> View attachment 706464


fan based or official patch?
what i am waiting for confirmation

1. Rd 93ma?
2. integration of self protection suit (like gripen has on its two outer pylons)
3. HMD type?
4. PL15(confirmed by some sources) and PL 10
5. towed decoy or other disposable decoys like britcloud(a poster showed that jf17 was a candidate)


https://basicsaboutaerodynamicsandavionics.files.wordpress.com/2016/03/brite-cloud.png

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## razgriz19

How can you say it's Lycoming from just looking at a propeller?
It could very well be a continental unit. They're both equally good


HRK said:


> its some variant of Lycoming twin rotor blade piston engine.

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## HRK

razgriz19 said:


> How can you say it's Lycoming from just looking at a propeller?
> It could very well be a continental unit. They're both equally good


I could be wrong but my guess is based on two reasons/observations

- Gear disk at which propeller are attached is similar to Lycoming engine of Mushaq aircraft

- As far as I am aware PAC is not using continental engines

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## nomi007

A-5 Fantan of Pakistan Air Force armed with 4 HAFR-4s Anti runway bombs.

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## SQ8

Deino said:


> Indeed, but I also noted several times that I don‘t think they are for Pakistan


If there are to be, they will be on the typical loan program which provided the JF-17 that most will not know the actual financial modalities of.

In the meantime, flippant claims of “good knews around the corner” will continue to be made based upon what has been already written here a year ago or a YouTube video.

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## Inception-06

HRK said:


> I could be wrong but my guess is based on two reasons/observations
> 
> - Gear disk at which propeller are attached is similar to Lycoming engine of Mushaq aircraft
> 
> - As far as I am aware PAC is not using continental engines


 
Is the PL-10 also officials confirmed ? And can it be operated also by Jf-17 Block 1-2, which advantages give the Pl-10, which role has it, does Pakistan operate a missile Typ like this (may be Western Typ ..?) ... thanks in advance !


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## imranyounus

well initially PAF was looking at around 150 JF17 + F16 100 + and keeping Mirage till some thing new comes along. 
but things changed in 90s than came 2000 and things started to change but along the line it all changed again. 

Throughout this JF 17 also evolved from 150 to 200 to 300. and yes logically it will change again. PAF was reluctant to inducted J 10 C and along with others things one factor was that it will need revisions of induction plans again and cut in JF 17 is possible or either an entire change of roles. It is also possible that PAF will now look at JF 17 B to augment strike capabilities rather than a multi role one.

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## HRK

Inception-06 said:


> Is the PL-10 also officials confirmed ? And can it be operated also by Jf-17 Block 1-2, which advantages give the Pl-10, which role has it, does Pakistan operate a missile Typ like this (may be Western Typ ..?) ... thanks in advance !


as of now nothing is officially confirm all we have are media reports and some guess work but it seems PL-10 is part of package with blk-III, as far as blk-I and blk-II are concern PL-10 could be a possibility if HMDS is integrated with earlier blocks but as of now no report of HMDS for blk-I or II, so as of now it seems PL-10 is not in consideration for earlier JF-17 blocks

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## Yasser76

imranyounus said:


> well initially PAF was looking at around 150 JF17 + F16 100 + and keeping Mirage till some thing new comes along.
> but things changed in 90s than came 2000 and things started to change but along the line it all changed again.
> 
> Throughout this JF 17 also evolved from 150 to 200 to 300. and yes logically it will change again. PAF was reluctant to inducted J 10 C and along with others things one factor was that it will need revisions of induction plans again and cut in JF 17 is possible or either an entire change of roles. It is also possible that PAF will now look at JF 17 B to augment strike capabilities rather than a multi role one.



I am unsure how good a strike platform the B will be, it maybe too short ranged

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## Inception-06

ghazi52 said:


> FT-5
> 
> 
> View attachment 709187



All replaced right ?


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## The Eagle

Members are advised to discuss possibility of new fighter air craft in another dedicated discussion. This thread must remain clean for Air Force News & Discussion based upon official/proven data in public domain.

Regards,

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## fatman17

*Asia-Pacific*
Pakistan has received




five Cai Hong 4 (Rainbow 4, or CH-4) multirole medium-altitude long-endurance (MALE) unmanned aerial vehicles from China, according to export-import (EXIM) logs on the Pakistan Exim Trade Info website. The UAVs, which were delivered by Chinese defense contractor Aerospace Long-March International Trade Co Ltd, arrived in the South Asian country on 15 January, according to the website. It is unclear, however, which variant of the CH-4 was ordered by Islamabad, and whether this delivery is part of a larger UAV order or just a limited acquisition of this UAV type, possibly for testing.

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## Pakistan Ka Beta

*JORDANIAN CHAIRMAN JOINT CHIEF OF STAFF CALLS ON AIR CHIEF AT AIR HEADQUARTERS 28 January, 2021: *

Major General Yousef Ahmad Al Hnaity, Chairman Joint Chief of Staff Jordan Armed Forces, called on Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force at Air Headquarters, Islamabad. Both the Commanders discussed various matters pertaining to bilateral cooperation and mutual interest. Chairman Joint Chief of Jordan lauded the professionalism of PAF personnel and expressed his desire to learn from its experience. The Air Chief offered all-out support to the brotherly country in the field of aviation and training. Both the dignitaries agreed to further cement the existing cordial relations between the two air forces. Earlier, on his arrival at Air Headquarters, the distinguished guest was received by Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force. A smartly turned out contingent of the Pakistan Air Force presented him the Guard of Honour.














        View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram

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## ghazi52



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## Tomcats

There will be PAF drills conducted in Quetta/Balochistan from January to April, these are fairly routine drills. So if there is any increased air activity noticed there then you can probably attribute it to this.

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## ghazi52

ISLAMABAD: Chairman Joint Chief of Staff Jordan Armed Forces Major General Yousef Ahmad Al Hnaity called on Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan at Air Headquarters here on Thursday.

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## khanasifm

fatman17 said:


> *Asia-Pacific*
> Pakistan has received
> 
> 
> 
> five Cai Hong 4 (Rainbow 4, or CH-4) multirole medium-altitude long-endurance (MALE) unmanned aerial vehicles from China, according to export-import (EXIM) logs on the Pakistan Exim Trade Info website. The UAVs, which were delivered by Chinese defense contractor Aerospace Long-March International Trade Co Ltd, arrived in the South Asian country on 15 January, according to the website. It is unclear, however, which variant of the CH-4 was ordered by Islamabad, and whether this delivery is part of a larger UAV order or just a limited acquisition of this UAV type, possibly for testing.


Is this 5 systems or 5 uav , typically one system is made of many say 5 uav plus ground control station etc


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## ghazi52

*Graduation ceremony of 144th GD (P), 90th Engineering, 100th AD courses*

February 2, 2021




Graduation ceremony of 144th GD (P), 90th Engineering, 100th AD courses


The graduation ceremony of 144th GD (P), 90th Engineering Course and 100th AD courses was held at PAF Academy, Asghar Khan today. Chief of Army Staff( COAS), General Qamar Javed Bajwa, was the chief guest on the occasion. Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan, Chief of Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force was also present at the ceremony.

COAS congratulated the graduating cadets on their landmark achievement. While addressing the graduating cadets, COAS said that Pakistan is a peace loving country that has rendered great sacrifices for regional and global peace. We stand firmly committed to the ideal of mutual respect and peaceful co-existence. It is time to extend hand of peace in all directions, COAS remarked. 

Pakistan and India must also resolve the longstanding issue of Jammu and Kashmir in a dignified and peaceful manner as per the aspirations of people of Jammu and Kashmir and bring this human tragedy to its logical conclusion, COAS emphasised.

However, we will not allow anybody or any entity to misinterpret our desire for peace as a sign of weakness. COAS said that Armed Forces of Pakistan are fully capable and prepared to thwart any threat. The immaculate coordination and harmony displayed by all the three services in operations against the enemies of Pakistan has brought great improvement in the internal security environment, COAS said. 

COAS specially commended the critical role played by Pakistan Air Force in War on Terror. The outstanding courage and professional excellence displayed by brave air warriors of Pakistan Air Force during Operation Swift Retort is a manifestation of our resolve and capability. The whole nation is proud of its Air Force and I earnestly hope that PAF will scale new heights of glory and excellence in the years to come, COAS reiterated.
.

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## ghazi52

*COAS: Pak committed to peaceful co-existence*

The Frontier Post
February 2, 2021


RISALPUR: Army Chief General Qamar Javed Bajwa on February 2nd addressed the graduation ceremony of 144th GDP, 90th Engineering Course and 100th AD courses held at PAF Academy Asghar Khan Risalpur.
Chief of Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan was also present at the ceremony.

During his address COAS said, Pakistan was a peace loving country that had rendered great sacrifices for regional and global peace, Director General ISPR Director said in a press release. While addre-ssing the graduating cadets, the COAS said that we stood firmly committed to the ideal of mutual respect and peaceful co-existence.

“It is time to extend hand of peace in all directions,” he remarked. Pakistan and India should also resolve the longstanding issue of Jammu and Kashmir in a dignified and peaceful manner as per the aspirations of people of Jammu and Kashmir and bring this human tragedy to its logical conclusion, the COAS emphasized. COAS Bajwa underscored that, “How-ever, we will not allow anybody or any entity to misinterpret our desire for peace as a sign of weakness”.

While boosting the moral of armed forces, COAS stated that, Armed Forces of Pakistan were fully capable and prepared to thwart any threat.

He also highlighted that, the immaculate coordination and harmony displayed by all the three services in operations against the enemies of Pakistan had brought great improvement in the internal security environment. The COAS specially commended the critical role played by Pakistan Air Force in War on Terror.

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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52



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## The Maverick

The Eagle said:


> It has been discussed for thousands of times previously but since you are new here, please go through JF-17 threads in particular section to understand the reason. This thread is designated specifically for PAF News Discussion. JF-17 is not required by China given the geographical scenario and moreover, PLAAF do have many of their own jets. Your argument as such is nothing more than a primary level enquiry so that warrants search for your knowledge for which, you will need to do it by yourself by going through different threads and update yourself which will save us from repetition of irrelevant argument.
> 
> Regards,



chinease have no requirement for thunders

they have 400 plus,single engined j10 multi role fighters 

thunder was designed by chengdu to pakistan requirements and now has won several exporter orders to smaller global air forces. 

Chinas next single engined fighter will be a fifth generation fighter based on fc31 decade from now

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## jordanrobert92

The airforce is doing a great job


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## nomi007



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## araz

The Maverick said:


> chinease have no requirement for thunders
> 
> they have 400 plus,single engined j10 multi role fighters
> 
> thunder was designed by chengdu to pakistan requirements and now has won several exporter orders to smaller global air forces.
> 
> Chinas next single engined fighter will be a fifth generation fighter based on fc31 decade from now


It will be a double engined fighter. I think the J10-series are th3 last single engined fighter PLAAF will use.
A


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## ghazi52

Congratulations

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## fatman17

Scramble - Dutch Aviation Society

HOME MILITARY NEWS FOLLOW UP ON THE CHENGDU J-10C DELIVERY ISSUES

PUBLISHED: 05 FEBRUARY 2021 LAST UPDATED: 05 FEBRUARY 2021

China Chengdu J 10s 640Follow up on the Chengdu J-10C delivery issues

Recently we revealed that deliveries of the Chengdu J-10C single engine fighter to the People's Liberation Army - Air Force (PLAAF, Chinese Air Force) seem to have been stopped. See the Scramble Magazine news item of 23 January 2021.

With the picture shown today multiple rows of fighters can be seen standing idle at Chengdu/Huangtianba, with all the flight sheds behind stuffed with J-20 fighters preparing for there test flights.

Although some believe that the J-10s are stored whilst waiting until an order for the J-10CEs with Pakistan is signed, a more probable reason could be that the locally developed Shenyang WS-10B engine has not yet been qualified for operational use. In November 2019 the first aircraft of production batch 05 was noted with this engine, but no WS-10B powered aircraft have been seen operational yet.

All operational aircraft noted are still powered by the Russian Saturn AL-31FN engine.

PLAAF China Chinese Air Force People's Liberation Army - Air Force Chengdu Aerospace Corporation - CAC Chengdu J-10C

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## ghazi52

Proud Moment

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## fatman17

By Alan Warnes

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## Clairvoyant



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## ghazi52

Feb 16, 2021
Today marked the 4th Anniversary of JF-17 Thunder with No. 14 Sqn 'Tail Choppers'.

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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52

First ever Aerospace and National Security Workshop is all set to commence at Center for Aerospace and Security Studies under the patronage of Air War College, PAF
AERONS21

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## ghazi52

Alouette III

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## fatman17

The FC-31, China’s ‘Other’ Stealth Fighter
A look at the jet with many names – and its carrier-based future.

By Rick Joe

February 18, 2021

The FC-31, China’s ‘Other’ Stealth Fighter
Credit: Sina Weibo/9谢艺航6
China’s FC-31 is a twin-engine stealth fighter demonstrator, which includes two iteratively different flying airframes that have been under active flight test since late 2012 and late 2016, respectively. This aircraft has often incorrectly been dubbed the “J-31” and been given various other names over the years, such as “J-21.” None of these J-designations remain true to the aircraft’s current state. It is a self-funded technology demonstrator from Shenyang Aircraft Corporation (SAC) and AVIC rather than a project being actively developed by the People’s Liberation Army (PLA). Therefore the names “J-31” or “J-21” are incorrect.

However, for the last few years it has been accepted that the PLA Navy has selected an FC-31-derived airframe to be developed into its carrier-based fifth-generation fighter, resulting in an aircraft that will indeed receive a J-designation. The PLA watching community has often referred to this aircraft as “J-35”; however, such a designation would be quite a numerical jump from “J-20” and thus deviate from prior norms where aircraft designations were somewhat more sequential (see, J-10, J-11, J-15, J-16, all as fourth-generation fighters). It also seems rather on the nose, having the same number as the U.S. F-35. It goes without saying there is substantial room for confusion over this aircraft’s name alone.

This piece will review the history and rationale of the FC-31 demonstrators, as well as consider the future of its carrier-based derivative, whose arrival is now expected sometime in 2021. For the purposes of this piece, the carrier-based fifth-generation fighter derived from FC-31 will be termed “J-XY/J-35,” in reference to the past “J-XX” name used for J-20, as well as to acknowledge the commonly circulated but yet to be confirmed “J-35” name.

FC-31 and Its Rationale

DIPLOMAT BRIEF

If the J-20 was the stealth fighter that changed PLA watching forever, it could be said that the FC-31 was a reminder that PLA watching still had the capacity to surprise.


Unlike the J-20, there was no long accumulation of rumors leading up to the FC-31’s unveiling. While some hints of a possible medium-weight fifth-generation aircraft bounced around in the late 2000s, the J-XX/J-20 was considered a much more credible aircraft to expect. In September 2011, less than a year after the unveiling of J-20, a model of a twin-engine aircraft with a convention configuration similar to the F-22 and F-35 (popularized since then, by the likes of KFX, TFX, and AMCA), was seen under the 601 Institute/SAC group at a UAV Innovation competition in Beijing, with the name “F-60.” The relatively generic nature of the aircraft depicted, as well as how recently the J-20 had emerged, made much of the community dismiss the F-60 model either as an internal study or some sort of subscale remote-controlled drone.

Therefore, it was a surprise when photographs emerged in mid-2012 of a suspicious looking, partially disassembled airframe being transported along roads and highways in China, with only its silhouette and shape visible through its protective covers. Initially this aircraft was thought to possibly be a disassembled JL-10 trainer or some other, more conservative aircraft. However, photographs taken at SAC a few months later in September revealed the complete and assembled aircraft with serial number 31001, virtually identical in configuration to the previously dismissed F-60. This aircraft made its first flight on October 31, 2012, just over a year and a half after the first J-20 technology demonstrator airframe, marking a milestone for China as only the second nation at the time to be actively flying more than one stealth fighter design at the same time.

Somewhat astonishingly, at Zhuhai Airshow in November 2012, a model of the new aircraft was even shown at a display booth, implying the aircraft could be offered for export or might even be intended for export. Subsequently, it was confirmed that the official AVIC designation for the aircraft was FC-31 (appearing to be a continuation of the export designations of FC-1 for the JF-17 and FC-20 for the J-10A).

A second, more revised airframe was known to be under work from 2015 to 2016, and it made its maiden flight on December 23, 2016. This airframe retained the same overall configuration, size, and planform as 31001, but enjoyed revisions in its flight control surfaces and panel geometry. It also replaced the two-piece canopy with a single piece reinforced canopy, and replaced the first airframe’s engines (thought to be the RD-93 or WS-13A, distinctive by their smoke) with WS-13E engines that feature certain improvements in thrust and materials, as well as being visibly smokeless. This airframe was dubbed in the community as “FC-31V2” denoting it as “version 2” of the same aircraft. FC-31V2 was eventually painted by late 2019 with a low-profile grey color and given the serial number 31003, fueling suspicions that the missing 31002 was likely a static test airframe of FC-31V1.

The relatively open profile of the FC-31 at various air shows and arms expos, as well as promotion from AVIC for its export prospects, created an impression that the aircraft was primarily intended as an export-oriented fifth-generation fighter, both in mainstream defense media as well as partially in the PLA watching community. But over time, it became obvious that the export prospects for the FC-31 were limited, and any AVIC push for overseas interest was likely half-hearted at best.

As it was, the FC-31 airframes were certainly full-sized airframes with internal weapons bays and capable of being developed into proper fifth-generation fighter; however, producing such a fighter would require significant additional development work on the aircraft’s avionics suite and weapons suite; the development of maintenance and infrastructure facilities; and substantially more flight and systems testing, among others – all of which would involve significant amounts of money, time, and willingness to tolerate risk. At the time, the PLA had yet to express interest in the FC-31 (or an FC-31 derivative), therefore the project lacked PLA commitment and funding, and there were no foreign nations that had the money or commitment to fund development of the FC-31 into a proper mission ready fighter for export. Therefore, it is likely that there was never any serious desire from AVIC, SAC, or the Chinese government to push the FC-31 as a dedicated export fifth-generation fighter. However, without a doubt the FC-31 was likely useful in announcing AVIC’s potential for developing a future fifth-generation fighter that may be offered on the export market, as well as starting discussions with potential customers to assess interest.

That leaves the question of what the purpose of the FC-31 was, if not as an export fighter. In recent years, academic papers from SAC have suggested the FC-31 was primarily a technology demonstrator for certain new manufacturing technologies, including but not limited to additive manufacturing and new structural loading principles to reduce cost and weight. Rumors have also suggested the FC-31 may utilize improved stealth technologies to increase ease of maintenance and operation, relative to the J-20.

At the same time, the FC-31 was clearly a full-sized fighter with a weapons bay that could likely be adapted to an operational aircraft if so desired (i.e. more similar to the American X-35 or YF-22 rather than the Japanese ATD-X). The planform of the FC-31, its overall size, and configuration and landing gear spacing, also appeared appropriate for development into a carrier-based variant, and indeed there was initial speculation in 2012 that the aircraft was the prototype of a new carrier-based fighter (quickly proven to be false at the time).

Therefore, it is likely the FC-31 was developed by SAC primarily as flying technology demonstrators, while also providing a basis for a future medium-weight land-based or carrier-based fifth-generation PLA requirement. Ultimately, in the early to mid-2010s the J-20 was still in active development and the FC-31 airframes remained in early flight testing themselves; therefore there were few signs of clear PLA commitment to the FC-31 or a derivative of it. However, this changed when the PLA Navy’s requirements for a carrier-based fighter began to advance.

The Carrier Has Arrived


By the mid to late 2010s, more concrete rumors surrounding the PLA Navy’s requirements for a fifth-generation carrier-based fighter started to emerge, with the two primary contenders being a navalized derivative of Chengdu’s J-20 versus a derivative of Shenyang’s FC-31.

For a couple of years, there was some swinging back and forth as to which aircraft the PLA would choose. Certain advantages and disadvantages existed for both options.

A J-20 derivative would be larger and enjoy greater range and payload as well as share greater commonality with the J-20 the PLA Air Force would induct. However, the larger size of a navalized J-20 would also impose restrictions on the number of aircraft that could be accommodated on the limited space of a carrier as well as on-deck maneuvering. A J-20 derivative would likely also need somewhat more extensive modifications to its control surfaces and wing size to enable better low speed handling. Furthermore, Chengdu had no prior experience developing and producing a navalized fighter compared to Shenyang, which might introduce greater relative risk.

The smaller footprint of a FC-31 derivative compared to the J-20 would enable a greater number of aircraft to be accommodated, and might prove easier to adapt for the navalized role by virtue of its more conventional configuration and existing landing gear arrangement. Shenyang also enjoyed experience in developing and producing the J-15 family of navalized fighters. However, a navalized FC-31 would also be more limited in range and payload than a navalized J-20, and would share less commonality with the PLA Air Force’s J-20.

Around 2018, a chorus of credible rumors strongly implied a navalized FC-31 had been chosen as the PLA Navy’s fifth-generation carrier-based fighter, now widely called “J-XY/J-35.” It remains unclear how much modification the J-XY/J-35 will undergo compared to the standard FC-31. It is expected the J-XY/J-35 will pick up from the FC-31V2 airframe, and include obvious modifications to enable carrier operations, including strengthened structure and landing gear, catapult compatible nose gear, a tailhook, folding wings, and corrosion resistance for operating in a maritime environment. It is also expected that the initial J-XY/J-35 prototypes and airframes will be powered by the 9-ton thrust WS-13E engine, to be succeeded by the more modern, 10+ ton thrust WS-19 currently under development. Notably, the development of the WS-19 may see a faster pace of work than the larger WS-15 being developed for the J-20, despite starting work later. That’s partly because the WS-19 is expected to take advantage of key technologies and advancements made as part of the WS-15’s development to begin with, as well as because the WS-19 sits in a smaller thrust category than the WS-15, with potential corresponding benefits for things such as yield and production of monocrystalline fan blades of smaller size.

What is not known is whether the J-XY/J-35 will undergo modifications in its wing size and control surface size, or changes to its overall size in general. As it stands, the FC-31 is not a small fighter; however, a carrier-based fighter may benefit disproportionately more from having a larger internal fuel load and internal weapons bay size. AVIC has shown promotional material indicating the FC-31 has an internal fuel combat radius of 1,200 km and a maximum takeoff weight (MTOW) of 28 tons. While the conditions of these numbers are not known, a slight increase of these parameters might benefit the overall flexibility of the aircraft, especially for carrier-based operations where greater range is always desirable. One past rumor had suggested the J-XY/J-35 might see a slight enlargement in size and weight up to an MTOW approaching 30 tons.

More intriguing is the ultimate size and geometry of J-XY/J-35’s weapons bay. The aircraft will likely retain the same main ventral bay configuration as on the FC-31 (which in turn is similar to that of the J-20 and F-22), while lacking dedicated side weapons bays. Given the geometry of the aircraft’s fuselage, it is unlikely that the J-XY/J-35 will enjoy as deep of a weapons bay as the F-35’s large diameter outboard stations. That said, the J-XY/J-35 might still field a sufficiently voluminous weapons bay to field powered strike weapons – the same source had suggested the aircraft might field the same weapons bay loadouts that the ventral bay of the J-20 can accommodate, raising an interesting prospect that the J-XY/J-35 might have the same main weapons bay geometry as the J-20.

In terms of sensors and avionics, it is very likely that it will be equipped with derivatives of the same suite that the J-20 enjoys. In fact, given the J-20 and J-XY/J-35 will likely enjoy a significant period of overlapping production, both aircraft may end up employing common subsystems in general. The usual suite of an AESA radar, passive electronic support measure systems and passive electro-optic detection systems, an electronic warfare system, an electro-optic chin mounted sensor, and robust datalinking capability with emphasis on networked warfare are all expected. It will be interesting to see if the initial J-XY/J-35 prototypes will be more similar to the J-20 project’s 200X technology demonstrators, or the more refined and more production representative 201X prototypes.

At time of writing in early February 2021, it is tentatively projected that the J-XY/J-35 may be unveiled sometime around mid-2021, but the effects of the global pandemic and overall global stability are confounding factors. But assuming a first flight sometime in 2021, development of the aircraft will likely take at least four to five years, implying the earliest the aircraft could see initial production would be 2026. However, this might be expedited slightly if the aircraft is able to exploit the many years of prior flight testing that the FC-31 airframes have enjoyed from 2012 to 2021, as well as utilizing existing, mature subsystems already employed on the J-20. The initial years of J-XY/J-35 production will be powered by the WS-13E, with the WS-19 potentially becoming available for production around the mid to late 2020s.

An entry into service in 2026 or 2027 would be a few years later than when the catapult equipped carrier 003 is expected to enter service; therefore at this stage it is expected that a catapult compatible J-15 family will be produced in the next few years, exploiting the flexibility and size of the Flanker airframe. It is unknown if the J-XY/J-35 will be designed with the ability to also take off from ski jumps, which would allow it to operate from the existing carriers Liaoning (CV-16) and Shandong (CV-17) as well as the future catapult carriers. It goes without saying that equipping the Liaoning and Shandong with the J-XY/J-35 will greatly enhance their combat potential. The stealthy nature of the J-XY/J-35 means the aircraft may be able to reliably take off from a ski jump under most conditions with a “light” load of full internal fuel and weapons, as such a weight would still only be a fraction of its MTOW.

An Air Force and Export Future?

The full-fledged development of the FC-31 into the J-XY/J-35 also presents an opportunity for the J-XY/J-35 to in turn be leveraged into a land-based fighter. A hypothetical land-based variant of the J-XY/J-35 would be capable of leveraging all of the development and subsystems work as part of the standard carrier-based aircraft, with removal of carrier-relevant details such as folding wings, structural enhancement, catapult nose gear, and tailhook, among others. Such modifications would not only reduce the weight of the aircraft, resulting in slightly improved kinematic performance, but also would be far less time consuming and complex than doing the reverse.

A land-based J-XY/J-35 could prove an attractive proposition for the PLA Air Force as a medium-weight fifth-generation fighter to complement the larger J-20, and if pursued might be production ready just a few years after the standard J-XY/J-35. However, an alternative medium-weight fighter may be a single engine aircraft powered by the WS-15. Holding all else equal, a single engine WS-15 powered fighter would enjoy benefits in operations cost by virtue of its single engine nature; however such an aircraft would likely have to be a clean sheet design compared to a land based J-XY/J-35, and there are also questions as to how the production of WS-15 can be scaled up to meet such demands.

Therefore, it remains an open question as to whether the PLA Air Force will commit itself to a land-based J-XY/J-35 variant, with some compelling arguments in favor of it. If such an aircraft is developed, it would certainly enjoy a rather convoluted development pathway, though there are some similar historical parallels. The YF-17 was a demonstrator fighter that competed with the YF-16 for the U.S. Air Force’s Lightweight Fighter competition, ultimately being declined in favor of the YF-16 (which became the widely used F-16). Meanwhile, the YF-17 was chosen by the U.S. Navy and developed into the F/A-18 as a carrier-based fighter – but interestingly, the F/A-18 was also developed into the F/A-18L, a land-based derivative of the aircraft for potential export. Ultimately, the F/A-18L did not result in any orders and was cancelled as a project, but interesting parallels exist, between the development path of the FC-31, J-XY/J-35, and a potential land-based J-XY/J-35, with that of the YF-17, F/A-18, and F/A-18L, respectively.

Furthermore, a land-based J-XY/J-35 would likely prove to be a viable export fifth-generation fighter, as such an aircraft will have been fully developed and adopted by the PLA. Such an aircraft might only emerge as a viable export product in the late 2020s, and therefore would likely be aimed at nations which desire a fifth-generation capability but are unable to purchase F-35s due to geopolitical alignment and/or cost. The most likely customer could be the Pakistani Air Force; however, Pakistan is currently also actively pursuing a fifth-generation capability dubbed Project Azm, whose stage of maturity is unknown, let alone what degree of indigenous industrial effort will be involved."


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## Windjammer



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## musaji

NA71 said:


>



There was a time that these videos would get all of their information from reputable forums like this one. How sad that its now the other way around. The forums are full of such videos that i don't even dare click on. 

If you think there is any credible information in this video, kindly state it when posting such a video.

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## NA71

musaji said:


> There was a time that these videos would get all of their information from reputable forums like this one. How sad that its now the other way around. The forums are full of such videos that i don't even dare click on.
> 
> If you think there is any credible information in this video, kindly state it when posting such a video.


few YT analyst are somehow have better understanding of def. related matters and these two vids are from those few.....who knows PDF reputable posters are behind these You tube videos....

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## ghazi52

Today "Surprise Day flypast rehearsal."
Credit 'Rana Suhaib'

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## nomi007

*PAF CELEBERATES GOLDEN JUBILEE OF MIRAGE AIRCRAFT IN @Pakistan Air Force |25 FEB 2021|*

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## ghazi52

.




















PAF CELEBERATES GOLDEN JUBILEE OF MIRAGE AIRCRAFT IN PAKISTAN AIR FORCE
25 February, 2021: To commemorate 50 years of service by Mirage Aircraft in Pakistan Air Force and pay accolades to No 22 Operational Conversion Unit and No 27 Tactical Attack Sqn for their meritorious services in war time role.
To celebrate “50 Years of Mirage in PAF” and award of Color to two operational Sqaudrons, a graceful ceremony was held at an Operational Base of Pakistan Air Force.
Dr Arif Alvi, President of Islamic Republic of Pakistan, was the Chief Guest on the occasion. Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force was also present at the occasion.
Addressing the audience the Air Chief said, “I acknowledge the vision of our predecessors for keeping the aircraft abreast to meet challenges of modern warfare through up-gradation”. He further said, “Over the years, the Mirage aircraft has amply demonstrated its capability in 1971 War, the two-decade long War on Terror; and recently during Operation Swift Retort. My felicitations to Mirage operators for employing 17 different variants of this legacy platform in various applications of airpower and providing Pakistan Air Force the desired capabilities in air-to-air, air-to-ground, air-to-sea or specialist roles”.
The Chief Guest, President of Islamic Republic of Pakistan, Dr Arif Alvi in his address, appreciated the opportunity to interact with heroes of the Nation. While commending the contributions of Air Marshal Nur Khan and Air Marshal Asghar Khan towards PAF, the Chief Guest said, “For a good Air Force, excellent professionalism and honest leadership is required. For leadership, the vision given by the Quaid should be followed.” He further said, “I was filled with pride on your performance on 27th February, 2019. It was a remarkable job, you are the master of your own destiny despite the fact that aircraft on the other side were advanced. You are second to none. We must increase our defence against our enemies.
An impressive fly past of Mirage fighter jets was the highlight of the event which enthralled the audience during the ceremony which was attended by a large number of serving and retired PAF officers and veterans.
PAF SPOKESPERSON

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## Shahzaz ud din

*PAF releases promo of new song to honour heroes of Operation Swift Retort*
08:00 PM | 25 Feb, 2021






ISLAMABAD – Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has released promo of a national song prepared to honor the heroes of Operation Swift Retort, an action which was taken to school belligerent neighbour, India. 

The song highlights patriotism and reaffirms the resolve that every personnel of Pakistan Air Force is ready to defend Pakistan at every time.

On Feb 27, 2019, PAF had shot down two Indian fighter jets over the disputed border region of Kashmir, in a significant escalation of the crisis between the two nuclear-armed powers.
The same day, India confirmed the loss of one plane (MiG-21 Bison) and said it shot down a Pakistani jet (F-16) as it responded to the incident. However, the Indian claim was later debunked by US officials who said that they have counted the number of Pakistan Air Force F-16s in service and can say that none were lost to the Indian Air Force on Feb 27 this year.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1364464960038985728Pakistan also captured an Indian pilot, Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman, and to India's fury, published a video of him. He was later handed over to India authorities.
The confrontation came a day after India said it launched airstrikes in Pakistan territory in the first such incursion by Indian air force planes since the India-Pakistan war of 1971.


> For the first time, Pakistan names second hero ...08:13 PM | 6 Mar, 2019
> ISLAMABAD – Pakistan has revealed the names of its pilots who shot down two Indian warplanes last week, in a fierce ...

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## hassan1

“Operation Swift Retort”

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## hassan1

Director Schools and Colleges Visit at FIC Minhas .27 feb 21

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## ghazi52

A Young Artist's Tribute To PAF



Fizaon Main Phir Say Tum by Hammad Ali










__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=170015254760781

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## ghazi52



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## Mir Shahzain

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1366319468020981769Hope Muhammad Haseeb Paracha, Deputy Chief of the Air Staff, Support (DCAS-S), AHQ, Islamabad will be next Air Chief Marshal of Pakistan Air Force. As he did tremendous job during Operation Swift Retort

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## Yasser76

Mir Shahzain said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1366319468020981769Hope Muhammad Haseeb Paracha, Deputy Chief of the Air Staff, Support (DCAS-S), AHQ, Islamabad will be next Air Chief Marshal of Pakistan Air Force. As he did tremendous job during Operation Swift Retort
> View attachment 721207
> View attachment 721207
> 
> View attachment 721208



News confirmed?


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## The Eagle

Yasser76 said:


> News confirmed?



Nothing confirmed about next Air Chief.

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## ghazi52

Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan paid a farewell call on Chief of the Naval Staff Admiral Muhammad Amjad Khan Niazi at Naval Headquarters, Islamabad.

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## Windjammer

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=693809577978568

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## Valiant

Windjammer said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=693809577978568



Pride of our nation. From the brave pilots to the countless officers that have laid their lives for this land, we are wholly indebted and owe the most immense gratitude.

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## Signalian

Discussion: Pros and Cons of basing a PAF fighter squadron at Skardu Airbase permanently?

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## Yasser76

Signalian said:


> Discussion: Pros and Cons of basing a PAF fighter squadron at Skardu Airbase permanently?




I would say

1) Supply - Everything has to be moved in by air
2) It is a small base, limited number of HAS, so extensive money to be spent on this and storage faclities, accomodation etc
3) Very high up - Humans will find it harder to work and human effectiveness can be degraded in such conditions
4) Unsure if it may even be with Indian long range artillery range eventually
5) Surrounding mountains give limited radar coverage and can hide attacking planes

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## The Eagle

Signalian said:


> Discussion: Pros and Cons of basing a PAF fighter squadron at Skardu Airbase permanently?



Necessary for war time readiness but costly given the geographic and might not be operational during winters. Land approach mostly cut off during winter and PAF will have to spend more than usual to maintain operational readiness however, the point has important role for the North covering given the geographic location.

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## arjunk

Signalian said:


> Discussion: Pros and Cons of basing a PAF fighter squadron at Skardu Airbase permanently?


Given the terrain, there is the potential for large underground tunnels/storage/rooms. As long as appropriate climate control technology is present (we could ask the Chinese for some), it should be fine.

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## CombatSurgeon

The Eagle said:


> Necessary for war time readiness but costly given the geographic and might not be operational during winters. Land approach mostly cut off during winter and PAF will have to spend more than usual to maintain operational readiness however, the point has important role for the North covering given the geographic location.


Land approach is okay during winters. Only issue is whether we need a permanent base there and whether we could afford it. To be honest, Skardu is offset by three and possibly four enemy airbases.

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## Windjammer



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## Talon

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 722619


@Trailer23 look closely...very closely


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## Trailer23

Hodor said:


> @Trailer23 look closely...very closely



Yaar, I haven't seen a girl this closely (in a long time) as I've tried to see this image. 

Must be rusty or old age is catching up on me. 

Find a way to, ehh, point out what I'm looking for/at.

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## JamD

Hodor said:


> @Trailer23 look closely...very closely







Warm? Cold?lol


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## Trailer23

JamD said:


> View attachment 723491
> 
> Warm? Cold?lol


Not one of mine.

Maybe everyone is watching one of my videos on the large screen  .


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## Raider 21

Hodor said:


> @Trailer23 look closely...very closely


Very interesting. The guys from that day


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## ghazi52

*In the memory of Wing Commander Noman Akram Shaheed, OC No. 9 SQN GRIFFINS,*

May his soul rest in peace. Our pride

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## HRK

JamD said:


> View attachment 723491
> 
> Warm? Cold?lol


it does not look like REK ...or H-4; PAF 15th Squadron is named Cobra & equipped with Mirage-V [I think non ROSE mirage jets .... ???]

this appear some thing similar to Flying wing design .... ??? strange ...


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## The Eagle

H-4 GIBS

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## fatman17

New Chief of the Air Staff to take #Command on 19 March 2021.
List of Contenders
- Air Marshal Syed Noman Ali, Chairman PAC
- Air Marshal Zaheer Ahmad Babar, DCAS Administration
- Air Marshal Javad Saeed, DCAS Air Defence
- Air Marshal Muhammad Haseeb Paracha, DCAS (Support)
#PAF

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## Talon

Trailer23 said:


> Yaar, I haven't seen a girl this closely (in a long time) as I've tried to see this image.
> 
> Must be rusty or old age is catching up on me.
> 
> Find a way to, ehh, point out what I'm looking for/at.


One of them is wearing your designed patches.. 



Raider 21 said:


> Very interesting. The guys from that day


Didn't participate though



HRK said:


> it does not look like REK ...or H-4; PAF 15th Squadron is named Cobra & equipped with Mirage-V [I think non ROSE mirage jets .... ???]
> 
> this appear some thing similar to Flying wing design .... ??? strange ...


That's an H4 with wings deployed

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## Pakistan Ka Beta

*President Dr Arif Alvi inaugurated the PAF Air War College Institute at Karachi 11 March, 2021: *


*President Islamic Republic of Pakistan, Dr Arif Alvi inaugurated the PAF Air War College Institute at Karachi today. On his arrival, he was received by Air Marshal Amir Masood, Deputy Chief of the Air Staff (Training), Pakistan Air Force. Addressing at the occasion, the chief guest appreciated the relentless efforts of the team, who completed the project in record time, as per the standards of Higher Education Commission (HEC).* He said that Pakistan is a peaceful country and the world has witnessed that we returned the Indian Pilot without any pressure. Lauding the PAF professionalism the Chief Guest said that the entire world has seen the professional competency of PAF after 27th Feb, 2019. The chief guest also visited various facilities of the Institute and interacted with the faculty and members. Earlier, Air Marshal Amir Masood, Deputy Chief of the Air Staff (Training), Pakistan Air Force while expressing his views said that education and training has remained the hallmark of PAF ever since its inception. He further said that as a progressive organization, PAF embraced the latest global trends in quality education, embedded the educational theory and practice with state of the art technology, infused education with critical thinking and opened the platform nationwide. During each course the members of PAF Air War College Institute are exposed to over a hundred subject matter experts including: Civil & Military Professionals, Diplomats, Scholars / Academicians, Lawyers, Industrialists, Scientists, Economists and Media Personnel. Additionally, exclusive interaction with foreign faculty and strategists is ensured to provide depth and academic rigor to the course. Seminars are also regularly conducted to promote inter-services operational harmony and jointness. 



















__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1369940550569320450





        View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram

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## ghazi52

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=431872661480737





First shahadat anniversary of Wing Commander Noman Akram shaheed - March 11, 2021

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## Windjammer

The Eagle said:


> H-4 GIBS

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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52



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## Trailer23

My edit from last year...

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## ghazi52



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## fatman17

Is he the next ACM?

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## ghazi52

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=923956091750448

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## ghazi52

Formation over Islamabad....






__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=266550691716464

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## khanasifm

fatman17 said:


> Is he the next ACM?
> View attachment 724435



who know wait till a few days before. 23rd

all am qualified and in the run till the very end 


ghazi52 said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=923956091750448



Any additional measure based on last year accident ?


ghazi52 said:


> View attachment 724233



is the guy on the left sirilankan ?


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## Tps43

khanasifm said:


> is the guy on the left sirilankan ?


Nope Pakistani , IK this guy personally

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## Inception-06

Tps43 said:


> Nope Pakistani , IK this guy personally


Welcome back, where have been Brother.

best regards !

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## ghazi52

Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar paid a farewell call on, COAS General Qamar Javed Bajwa In Rawalpindi..

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## ghazi52

March 16, 2021

Chief of Air Staff (CAS) Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan bid Director General Inter-Services (ISI) Intelligence Lieutenant General Faiz Hamid a farewell call.

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## Tps43

Inception-06 said:


> Welcome back, where have been Brother.
> 
> best regards !


Thanks alot , been busy with different stuff 
How are u?

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## Inception-06

Tps43 said:


> Thanks alot , been busy with different stuff
> How are u?



Shukar Allhamdullila, happy you are well. Take care !

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## fatman17

PRIME MINISTER OFFICE
PAK SECRETARIAT 

The Prime Minister of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan Imran Khan is pleased to appoint Air Marshal ZAHEER AHMAD BABAR HI(M) as the next Chief of Air Staff of the #Pakistan Air Force. 

The AM will be promoted to rank of Air Chief Marshal. https://t.co/xm75awkHTE

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## fatman17

fatman17 said:


> PRIME MINISTER OFFICE
> PAK SECRETARIAT
> 
> The Prime Minister of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan Imran Khan is pleased to appoint Air Marshal ZAHEER AHMAD BABAR HI(M) as the next Chief of Air Staff of the #Pakistan Air Force.
> 
> The AM will be promoted to rank of Air Chief Marshal. https://t.co/xm75awkHTE
> View attachment 725372
> View attachment 725373


Haseeb Paracha appointed VCAS

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## untitled

ghazi52 said:


> March 16, 2021
> 
> Chief of Air Staff (CAS) Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan bid Director General Inter-Services (ISI) Intelligence Lieutenant General Faiz Hamid a farewell call.
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 725161


So this is the official ISI logo?


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## Raider 21

fatman17 said:


> Haseeb Paracha appointed VCAS
> View attachment 725613


Negative. A new VCAS will be appointed by the current air chief.


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## ghazi52

Team Sherdils
Master Of Aerobatics

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## ghazi52

*SOLOTÜRK to fly demonstration flight in Pakistan*
*Turkish Air Force Command's demonstration team SOLOTÜRK arrived in Islamabad to make a demonstration flight during Pakistan's National Day events.*
AGENDA 21.03.2021, 18:22




 

Aerobatic team of the Turkish Air Force Command SOLOTÜRK, as it is every year in the brotherly country of Pakistan's National Day will perform flight demonstrations as a sign of friendship of Turkey and Pakistan in the skies this year.

In the post made on the social media account of the Ministry of National Defense, "The show team of our Air Forces Command SOLOTÜRK will participate in the National Day events of the friendly and brotherly country of Pakistan, and will fly a demonstration flight. Our SOLOTÜRK team reached the capital of Pakistan, Islamabad, for the ceremonies to be held on Tuesday, March 23, 2021. '' 











SOLOTÜRK, Pakistan’da gösteri uçuşu yapacak


Türk Hava Kuvvetleri Komutanlığı'nın gösteri ekibi SOLOTÜRK, Pakistan'ın Milli Gün etkinliklerinde gösteri uçuşu yapmak üzere İslamabad'a vardı.




www.savunmatr.com

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## ghazi52



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## fatman17

[emoji1210] #RSAF of #SaudiArabia to deploy Tornado jets to [emoji1191] of #PAF Base Mushaf, Sargodha. The first #Saudi Air Force Strike Group ever deployed to #Pakistan will take part in exercise ACES MEET 2021 from 27th Mar 2021 for two weeks.
#Pakistan #PakistanAirForce #ACESMEET2021 https://t.co/iZHKpWIi1o

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## fatman17

fatman17 said:


> [emoji1210] #RSAF of #SaudiArabia to deploy Tornado jets to [emoji1191] of #PAF Base Mushaf, Sargodha. The first #Saudi Air Force Strike Group ever deployed to #Pakistan will take part in exercise ACES MEET 2021 from 27th Mar 2021 for two weeks.
> #Pakistan #PakistanAirForce #ACESMEET2021 https://t.co/iZHKpWIi1o


Picture

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## ghazi52

*Pakistan Day parade postponed due to 'inclement weather and rains': ISPR*

Naveed Siddiqui
March 22, 2021 -
 






Soldiers march past during the Pakistan Day military parade in Islamabad. — AFP

The Pakistan Day parade scheduled to be held tomorrow (Tuesday) has been postponed due to forecast of "inclement weather and rain" over the next two days, the military's media wing said in a statement on Monday.

The parade will now be held on March 25, according to the Inter-Services Public Relations (ISPR).
"The Joint Services Pakistan Day Parade will now be held on 25th March, 2021 as per program and timings already specified," it said.

Pakistan Day commemorates the passing of the Lahore Resolution on March 23, 1940, when the All-India Muslim League demanded a separate nation for the Muslims of the British Indian Empire.

The day usually begins with a 31-gun salute in Islamabad while provincial capitals mark it with 21-gun salutes. The Pakistan Day military parade is held at Parade Ground near the Shakarparian hills in Islamabad. The annual parade is attended by civil and military leadership as well as foreign dignitaries.
Fly-past demonstrations are also held to mark the day.

The parade also showcases the local cultures of the four provinces. Cultural delegates and floats from Sindh, Punjab, Balochistan, Khyber Pakhtunkhwa, Gilgit Baltistan, and Azad Kashmir are featured during the ceremony.

However, last year's celebrations were scaled down because of the coronavirus pandemic as leaders vowed to combat the Covid-19 outbreak in the country.

Concerns had arisen regarding this year's celebrations as well as the third wave of the novel coronavirus intensified in the country and more than 3,000 new cases were reported for the last five days.
However, Minister for Planning Asad Umar had earlier told _Dawn_ that there was no plan to cancel or limit the Pakistan Day parade.

"We have already discussed all arrangements and SOPs during the parade and it will be held with the usual zeal. However, we have observed that the provincial administrative units and Islamabad are not enforcing the SOPs strictly, therefore, they have all been directed to ensure their implementation," he had said.

https://www.facebook.com/sharer/sha...awn.com/news/1613976&display=popup&ref=plugin

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## ghazi52

Resting in Pakistan AFTER LONG FLIGHT.
Welcome.

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## AMRAAM

ghazi52 said:


> Team Sherdils
> Master Of Aerobatics
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 725671



I've heard that the Sherdil Aerobatics team is consists of instructors from Risalpur. Not seeing any Sql Ldr rank pilot.


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## Yasser76

AMRAAM said:


> I've heard that the Sherdil Aerobatics team is consists of instructors from Risalpur. Not seeing any Sql Ldr rank pilot.



From what I gather one does not have to be a senior rank, those pilots showing great aptitude and skill at Risalpur (and in fact at other major western acadamies) are often offered chance to become flight instructors early on in their career. Fl Lt is Captain level in Air Force, they can easily graduate, do a 3 year tour at a fighter unit than come back to Risaplur to instruct

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## ghazi52

"SOLOTURK" It is a demo team which presents the capability of the modern & high-performance F-16 aircraft possessed by TuAF & the high level of skill & knowledge necessary for its use to the audience as a show. The demo flights are realized with a solo F-16C Block 40 aircraft

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## ghazi52



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## Clairvoyant



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## nomi007

The helmet is different any info.


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## Clairvoyant

nomi007 said:


> View attachment 727017
> 
> The helmet is different any info.



This is an aquilaex helmet visor,a couple of guys have ordered them online for themselves.






__





Visor-PRODUCTS







www.aquilaex.com

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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52

Uzun Canlı Pak Türk Arkadaşlığı

Welcome



to Pakistan

❤

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## ghazi52



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## Metal 0-1

fatman17 said:


> Picture
> View attachment 726701


These Flying bricks are something else

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## Yasser76

Metal 0-1 said:


> These Flying bricks are something else



Be it so, they are formidable strike plans and Saudis have given them a decent upgrade


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## Metal 0-1

Yasser76 said:


> Be it so, they are formidable strike plans and Saudis have given them a decent upgrade


No disrespect they are great strike planes. It's just I see them visually like a flying brick as well as Tonka. 
F-4 Phantom is another example of flying brick.


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## Yasser76

Metal 0-1 said:


> No disrespect they are great strike planes. It's just I see them visually like a flying brick as well as Tonka.
> F-4 Phantom is another example of flying brick.



Yes, not the most please plane on the eye granted, but I guess the whole point of the exercise is to leanr employment of modern strike tactics and weapons, we can learn here. That is what is most important. Be interesting to see what the US brings, I am thinking F-15Es as they are based nearby in UAE


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## The Raven

Does anyone remember back in 2001 during the stand off with india when there was a strong rumour that the Saudis deployed their Tornados and other assets to Pakistan? Even Alan Warnes reported it, but nothing was ever confirmed, and no pictorial evidence was ever seen.

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## Raider 21

Clairvoyant said:


>


This footage is amazing. The original song video has some aerial footage of my dad rolling and going inverted in F-7s. A little bit of that was for a half-hearted TV show


ghazi52 said:


> "SOLOTURK" It is a demo team which presents the capability of the modern & high-performance F-16 aircraft possessed by TuAF & the high level of skill & knowledge necessary for its use to the audience as a show. The demo flights are realized with a solo F-16C Block 40 aircraft
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 726827


Guy or gal is living the dream

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## ghazi52

Some participants of Pakistan Air Force on Parade 2021 and their patches

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## ghazi52

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=846043829310261

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## Clairvoyant

Raider 21 said:


> This footage is amazing. The original song video has some aerial footage of my dad rolling and going inverted in F-7s. A little bit of that was for a half-hearted TV show
> 
> Guy or gal is living the dream




Shahper kho na yaday?


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## Raider 21

Clairvoyant said:


> Shahper kho na yaday?


Ow bachaa daka de


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## ghazi52

*Solo Turk Roaring in The Blue skies Of Islamabad.
  *

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## ghazi52

*All 5 Fighter formations of Pakistan Air Force*

- F-16 Formation - No. 9 Squadron "Griffins"
- Mirage Formation - No. 27 Squadron "Zarrars"
- JF-17 Formation - No. 16 Squadron "Black Panthers"
- F7PG Formation - No. 17 Squadron "Tigers"
- F7P Formation - CCS Squadron "Dashings"

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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1374184757098070017

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## Reichmarshal

ghazi52 said:


> View attachment 727965


Talk is cheap........his *** was kicked by Taimur who took him as his prisoner.

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## ghazi52

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1374991384499851267

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## TsAr

Reichmarshal said:


> Talk is cheap........his *** was kicked by Taimur who took him as his prisoner.


He did defeat the Crusaders at Nicopolis though.....

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## Ghost 125

Reichmarshal said:


> Talk is cheap........his *** was kicked by Taimur who took him as his prisoner.


Napoleon was also defeated and sent to elba, escaped, came back, again defeated at waterloo, sent forever to saint helena.....that does not make him any less of an emperor or conqueror. same is the case with bayezid.

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## The Maverick

ghazi52 said:


> *All 5 Fighter formations of Pakistan Air Force*
> 
> - F-16 Formation - No. 9 Squadron "Griffins"
> - Mirage Formation - No. 27 Squadron "Zarrars"
> - JF-17 Formation - No. 16 Squadron "Black Panthers"
> - F7PG Formation - No. 17 Squadron "Tigers"
> - F7P Formation - CCS Squadron "Dashings"
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 727767




love this picture 
the twin seater thunder looks so much better than single seater ie bigger bubble canopy and slightly dropped nose

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## Trailer23

*Blast from the Past: The Man's been at it for a while...*

*------------------

PAF Holds Graduation Ceremony at Combat Commanders’ School, Sargodha*​
*April 21, 2012*

*A graduation ceremony of the combat commanders’ course was held on Friday at the Combat Commanders’ School, Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Base Mushaf in Sargodha.*

_Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt_ was the chief guest on the occasion.

In his address to the graduating combat commanders, the air chief said that the nature of aerial warfare continued to rise in complexity under a time-compressed environment.

Butt said, “_Any future conflict in our region would entail the employment of air power in a manner that we have not witnessed before_. The application of air power at different levels and modes could stretch our limited resources to the maximum and test our resolve. It is for this reason alone, that our force structuring and operational training must continue to evolve progressively to meet the future challenges. Air Headquarters is fully aware of this situation and the Air Staff remains committed to make PAF second to none’.”




The chief guest awarded certificates and trophies to a total of 23 officers who underwent a highly professional service course of six and a half months duration. *The Air Chief of the Air Staff Trophy for overall best performance was awarded to Squadron Leader Nouman Ali Khan.* Air Officer Commanding Trophy for the best performance in Air Defence Course was awarded to _Squadron Leader Faisal Iqbal_.

@Sunny4pak - for your YouTube Channel/Community

@Windjammer @Hodor @airomerix @The Eagle @ghazi52 @araz @HRK @Irfan Baloch

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## Trailer23

Interview from 2 Days ago.

Did not want to start up a new Topic just for this vid.





@Windjammer @Hodor @airomerix @The Eagle @araz

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## Reichmarshal

Ghost 125 said:


> Napoleon was also defeated and sent to elba, escaped, came back, again defeated at waterloo, sent forever to saint helena.....that does not make him any less of an emperor or conqueror. same is the case with bayezid.



Plz read history rather than arguing, 
he was not much of a ruler to begin with as he left most of the decision making to his wazirs/governors, who wrecked havoc. 
He did defeat the cruisders but that was more thanks to over zealous bumbling French.
His defeat against Taimur was complete and total so much so that due to the utter humiliation he committed suicide.

He was allegedly chained, and forced to watch how his beloved wife, Olivera, served Timur at dinner. 
a description of the public humiliation of Bayezid's wife:



> “He had a wife of Ildrim [Yıldırım, i.e., Bayezid], who was also a captive. They ripped off her clothes to the navel, exposing shameful areas. And he (Timur) made her serve food to him and his guests like that.[31]


 According to a legend, Timur took Bayezid with himself everywhere in a barred palanquin or cage, humiliating him in various ways, used Bayezid as a support under his legs, and at dinner had him placed under the table where bones were thrown at him.

Due this defeat the otoman empire would spiral into violence for more than a decade.


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## Trailer23

musaji said:


> Shows more of a filthy character of Timur than Bayzid. Please also review the details of what happened at the battle filed. At the prime of their power, they both were equally capable of defeating the other. At the end of the day, there could only be one victor.
> 
> Timur line went on to establish the moghuls through babur while Ottomans even after this defeat managed to collect themselves and ruled for another 500 years, kept ruling over the Europeans while also keeping the Russian bear at bay, which was no small feat.


Oh for God sake, man.

This is Pakistan Air Force News & Discussions - not Islamic History.

Why is it that every conversation/discussions of ours some how heads in that direction?

Here we are talking about Mirages, C-130's, JF-17's... [aur achanak say Moghuls aur Ottomans ajatay hain].

@The Eagle @waz

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## Ghost 125

Reichmarshal said:


> Plz read history rather than arguing,


noted

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## waz

Keep to TOPIC! This is not a history thread.

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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52

CCS Sky Bolts' Mirage and Mushaf AFB tower.

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## ghazi52

Temporary runway patch made on the Lahore-Islamabad M2 Motorway to accommodate military and air force missions

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## fatman17

Middle East & Africa

A video circulating online shows a JF-17 being unloaded from a Pakistan Air Force Il-76. The fighter is believed to have been delivered to Makurdi. The Nigerian Air Force has ordered three JF-17s from Pakistan and these have been manufactured, with registrations NAF-720, NAF-721 and NAF-722. In 2018 Pakistan’s Economic Coordination Committee (ECC) approved a $184.3 million sovereign guarantee for the production of three Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC)/Chengdu JF-17 fighters, according to the Pakistan Express Tribune.

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## ghazi52

'Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan' "As I relinquish the responsibility of PAF command on completion of my tenure as CAS, I bow my head in great humility before Allah almighty, for His boundless blessings, help & guidance throughout my career "

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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52

DA-20 EW aircraft from No. 24 Sqn Blinders. Two of these are in service, tasked to provide ELINT/ECM support to PAF. 
Both aircraft are named after martyrs of 1965 war, Sqn Ldr M. Iqbal & Sq Ldr Saifullah Lodi who flew RB-57F Canberra.

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## khanasifm

ghazi52 said:


> Temporary runway patch made on the Lahore-Islamabad M2 Motorway to accommodate military and air force missions
> 
> 
> View attachment 729237



So this concept was introduced by Sweden 🇸🇪 first but they had actually added parallel structures ie there was no need to close the main highway but off the main highway a parallel strip for to be used by airforce

they made many of them all across the country

lastly their runways were not 10 feet above ground Level but at ground level just in case of emergencies , it could still support a landing of an aircraft 









Air Bases in Sweden






www.mil-airfields.de


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## Yasser76

ghazi52 said:


> DA-20 EW aircraft from No. 24 Sqn Blinders. Two of these are in service, tasked to provide ELINT/ECM support to PAF.
> Both aircraft are named after martyrs of 1965 war, Sqn Ldr M. Iqbal & Sq Ldr Saifullah Lodi who flew RB-57F Canberra.
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 729457



I thought it was 3 in service? Most open sources give us as having 3


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## Signalian

Hoping for the day when aircrafts re-arm mid air.

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## ghazi52

The newly appointed Chief of the Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Zaheer Ahmed Baber Sidhu visited Naval Headquarters after assumption of Command and met Chief of the Naval Staff, Admiral Muhammad Amjad Khan Niazi.

Upon arrival at Naval Headquarters, Chief of the Air Staff was received by Naval Chief. A smartly turned out contingent of Pakistan Navy presented Guard of Honour.

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## ghazi52



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## CombatSurgeon

Yasser76 said:


> I thought it was 3 in service? Most open sources give us as having 3


Third one is named Mir, after another hero, Sqn Ldr Rashid Mir.

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## Sulman Badshah



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## MIRauf

Signalian said:


> Hoping for the day when aircrafts re-arm mid air.


Energy weapons, almost there.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Sulman Badshah said:


> View attachment 729715
> View attachment 729716
> View attachment 729717


Alouette replacement?
Or complementing fennecs maybe??

Or maybe they jus showing model lol 😆


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## Sulman Badshah

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Alouette replacement?
> Or complementing fennecs maybe??
> 
> Or maybe they jus showing model lol 😆


bigger than fennec .. it might be a good replacement for Huey type or similar in future

Currently just showing model

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Signalian said:


> Hoping for the day when aircrafts re-arm mid air.


Maybe when directed energy weapons become a thing we could see a 'recharge' option for its battery (and obviously aerial refueling if the engine's involved in creating power).

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## Sulman Badshah



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## ghazi52

Agusta Westland AW139

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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52



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## Tank131

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 723646


Interestingly, i think this may be the very first actual photo of H-4 in service with PAF, despite it being with them nearly 20 years. Anyone have actual images other than this of H2 or H4 in PAF service?



Ahmet Pasha said:


> Alouette replacement?
> Or complementing fennecs maybe??
> 
> Or maybe they jus showing model lol 😆


Gokbey is expected to eventually use the same TS1400 engine as the Atak will eventually. Perhaps that is the reason to show the model.


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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52

Air Marshal Syed Noman Ali, Vice Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force reviewed the ongoing multi-national air exercise “ACES Meet 2021-1” at an Operational Air Base of Pakistan Air Force.

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## ghazi52

'Shahbaz 1 Farewell'

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## ghazi52

No night flying activities without the guidance of ATC 'Air Traffic Control'.

ATC monitors every move with safety as their primary concern. Do you fancy a career as Air Traffic Controller ? 









Very tough job it is. It requires much attention and concentration because safe landing and taking off is on the mercy of ATC controller.
The real hero on the ground.

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## ghazi52

"PAF Mirage III ROSE Being Loaded With Weapons"

As the sun beats down upon him, an Airman wipes the sweat from his brow, spreading the layer of grease & oil from his hands onto his forehead. Consumed by the task at hand, he remains focused knowing his jet needs to be ready to take off within the hour.

He is accustomed to such working conditions by now the extreme summer heat, freezing winter cold & pouring rain. The long hours & necessity to stop what he is doing & seek shelter are all a part of his routine. He is a fighter aircraft crew chief. What he does is not a job, it is a lifestyle.

As a crew chief, you have to enjoy working in the cold, in the heat and in the rain. You have to enjoy getting your hands dirty & putting in the long hours. Seeing your jet take off two or three times a day & return home safely each time that’s the real reward. Having that pilot climb out & say, ‘Great job chief’ makes it worth it.”

There really is a lot of work that goes into every jet on the flightline. Crew chiefs usually put in about 12 to 14 hours of work a day. But everything they do, they do as a team. They start their day together, & they end it together.

So come heat, cold, rain, endless days and alarm reds, the crew chiefs of Pakistan Air force remain focused on the mission & continue to make sure their jets take off & come back safely every day

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## ghazi52

Two-week long Multi-National air exercise “ACES Meet 2021-1” concluded at an Operational Base of Pakistan Air Force today. A closing ceremony was held in this regard.

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## ghazi52

MULTI-NATIONAL EXERCISE “ACES MEET 2021-1” CONCLUDES

08 APRIL, 2021: Two-week long Multi-National air exercise “ACES Meet 2021-1” concluded at an Operational Base of Pakistan Air Force today. A closing ceremony was held in this regard. Air Commodore Ali Naeem Zahoor, Base Commander PAF Base, Mushaf was the chief guest at the occasion. His Excellency Nawaf Saeed Al-Malky, Ambassador KSA to Pakistan graced the ceremony as Guest of Honour. Air Vice Marshal (Pilot) / Staff Awad Abdullah Al Zahrani, Defence Attache KSA and Colonel Wallin David, Air Attache USA were also present in the ceremony along with observers from Bahrain, Egypt and Jordan

Addressing the participants of the exercise, the chief guest said, “PAF is happy to share its experiences and expertise in the field of Counter-Terrorism Operations with RSAF & USAF. At the same time, Exercise ACES Meet has also provided a good opportunity for us for mutual learning.” He further said, “With the successful and meaningful conduct of exercise, we have consolidated our resolve, that we stand by each other as allies and friends.”

His Excellency Nawaf Saeed Al-Malky, Ambassador KSA to Pakistan while sharing his views with the audience thanked Pakistan Air Force for arranging such exercise, especially in COVID-19 situation. He said that such exercises increase the comradeship and professional excellence of the participants. Colonel Wallin David, Air Attache USA also congratulated Pakistan Air Force on successful completion of the exercise


ACES MEET 2021-1 featured active participation of PAF, RSAF and USAF participated in the exercise whereas Bahrain, Egypt and Jordan air forces were invited as observers.
.

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## ghazi52

Recent Exercise

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## Yasser76

ghazi52 said:


> Recent Exercise
> 
> View attachment 732427



You sure? Looks like Red Flag, cannot remember the pan being like that or the hills like this at Mushaf.

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## Windjammer

USAF C-7 Globemaster on finals while landing in Karachi.

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## Metal 0-1

Windjammer said:


> USAF C-7 Globemaster on finals while landing in Karachi.
> 
> View attachment 732496
> 
> 
> View attachment 732497
> 
> 
> View attachment 732498


I think it's more like a transit flight

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## fatman17

#OTD: 62 years ago, the Pakistani AF scored its first air-to-air kill (April 10, 1959). Flt Lt. M. Younis, flying an F-86 Sabre (from No.15 Sqd), downed an Indian AF Canberra over Rawalpindi. The IAF aircraft was on a high altitude photo-reconnaissance mission. #AvGeek #Pakistan https://t.co/iF0Xgid7Ls

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## fatman17

fatman17 said:


> #OTD: 62 years ago, the Pakistani AF scored its first air-to-air kill (April 10, 1959). Flt Lt. M. Younis, flying an F-86 Sabre (from No.15 Sqd), downed an Indian AF Canberra over Rawalpindi. The IAF aircraft was on a high altitude photo-reconnaissance mission. #AvGeek #Pakistan https://t.co/iF0Xgid7Ls
> View attachment 732679


Depiction by Hussaini

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## fatman17

FA-50 and JF-17 are finalists in Malaysia's fighter competition - https://t.co/5nSqs7HRqw https://t.co/RChLuIQ1si

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## Scorpiooo

Due to join partnership in TFX program, T50 got more chances
Due to join partnership in TFX program, T50 got more chances


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## 3030

Is Malaysia working with South Korea on the New fighter? Isn't it Indonesia who already has them.


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## ghazi52

GOVERNMENT OF PAKISTAN PROMOTES AIR VICE MARSHAL HAMID RASHID RANDHAWA TO THE RANK OF AIR MARSHAL







12 APRIL, 2021: Government of Pakistan has promoted Air Vice Marshal Hamid Rashid Randhawa to the rank of Air Marshal.
Air Marshal Hamid Rashid Randhawa was commissioned in GD (P) Branch of Pakistan Air Force in June, 1988. During his illustrious career, he has commanded a Fighter Squadron, a Flying Wing and an Operational Air Base. In his staff appointments, he has served as Assistant Chief of Air Staff (Safety) and Personal Staff Officer to Chief of the Air Staff. He has also performed his duties as Air Officer Commanding PAF Academy, Asghar Khan and Additional Secretary at Ministry of Defence. Presently, he is serving as Inspector General Air Force at Air Headquarters. He is a graduate of Combat Commanders’ School and National Defence University, Islamabad. He is a recipient of Tamgha-i- Imtiaz (Military), Sitara-i-Imtiaz (Military) and Hilal-i-Imtiaz (Military).

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## ghazi52



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## mdmm

fatman17 said:


> FA-50 and JF-17 are finalists in Malaysia's fighter competition - https://t.co/5nSqs7HRqw https://t.co/RChLuIQ1si
> View attachment 733339
> View attachment 733340


*Dear Fatman, * *ghazi52, 
Your all posts are very informative.Kindly keep good work in this forum.
Like me all Pakistani in oversease are very sensitive to defence power,future and progress of Pakistan army and AF. Kindly provide following news,
1- did Pakistan JF17 Blk3 won in FA-50 and JF-17 are finalists in Malaysia's fighter competition ?. This will prove which jet fighter is best in comparison to JF17 Blk3 ?
2- Did Pakistan joined partnership in TFX with Turkey ?
3- No news about , what Chinese jet fighters , J-10c, J-20, J-11 is Pakistan getting ?*

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## Reichmarshal

The ans to all ur questions is a no

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## Primus

Reichmarshal said:


> The ans to all ur questions is a no


Not no, rather don't know.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Either way we should wait for the news to come out after deals are signed. Not before so they don't get spoiled by jealous neighbors.

And not disclose classified info prematurely.


mdmm said:


> *Dear Fatman, * *ghazi52,
> Your all posts are very informative.Kindly keep good work in this forum.
> Like me all Pakistani in oversease are very sensitive to defence power,future and progress of Pakistan army and AF. Kindly provide following news,
> 1- did Pakistan JF17 Blk3 won in FA-50 and JF-17 are finalists in Malaysia's fighter competition ?. This will prove which jet fighter is best in comparison to JF17 Blk3 ?
> 2- Did Pakistan joined partnership in TFX with Turkey ?
> 3- No news about , what Chinese jet fighters , J-10c, J-20, J-11 is Pakistan getting ?*





Reichmarshal said:


> The ans to all ur questions is a no





Huffal said:


> Not no, rather don't know.

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## ghazi52

circa 194,8 An RPAF de Havilland Tiger Moth at the Drigh Road Airbase. known as the Faisal Airbase now.

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## fatman17

mdmm said:


> *Dear Fatman, * *ghazi52,
> Your all posts are very informative.Kindly keep good work in this forum.
> Like me all Pakistani in oversease are very sensitive to defence power,future and progress of Pakistan army and AF. Kindly provide following news,
> 1- did Pakistan JF17 Blk3 won in FA-50 and JF-17 are finalists in Malaysia's fighter competition ?. This will prove which jet fighter is best in comparison to JF17 Blk3 ?
> 2- Did Pakistan joined partnership in TFX with Turkey ?
> 3- No news about , what Chinese jet fighters , J-10c, J-20, J-11 is Pakistan getting ?*


1. JF17 and Korean jet are the finalists for Malaysia procurement. No final decision / selection made by Malaysia. 
2. So far it is rumours only of Pakistan being partner in TFX programme. Pakistan has its own AZM programme. At some point Pakistan may include Turkey and China in the development of the AZM project. 
3. Also rumours about procurement of J10 etc. Pakistan focused on JF17 programme.

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## khanasifm

mdmm said:


> *Dear Fatman, * *ghazi52,
> Your all posts are very informative.Kindly keep good work in this forum.
> Like me all Pakistani in oversease are very sensitive to defence power,future and progress of Pakistan army and AF. Kindly provide following news,
> 1- did Pakistan JF17 Blk3 won in FA-50 and JF-17 are finalists in Malaysia's fighter competition ?. This will prove which jet fighter is best in comparison to JF17 Blk3 ?
> 2- Did Pakistan joined partnership in TFX with Turkey ?
> 3- No news about , what Chinese jet fighters , J-10c, J-20, J-11 is Pakistan getting ?*



Your assertion is wrong just because one aircraft is selected vs other say jas-39 lost to other in many competition does not mean it’s bad or good, such deals are not made just based on product performance but other factors play a major role infact its is the major factor price and performance plus political wrangling

the only exception is teja which is the joke of the industry spoken to many and it’s true

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## Scorpiooo



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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52

'Happy Pilots Day'
Great pilots are made, not born. 
A man may possess good eyesight, sensitive hands & perfect coordination, but the end result is only fashioned by steady coaching, much practice & experience ...

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## Windjammer



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## Yasser76

*USAF picks Yulista for AIDEWS engineering sustainment*



Onboard defensive EW suite for Pakistani and Turkish F-16s to be maintained until 2026.
Yulista Services is providing engineering sustainment support for the AN/ALQ-211(V) Advanced Integrated Defense Electronic Warfare Suite (AIDEWS) aboard F-16 aircraft operated by the Pakistani and Turkish air forces.
‘Procurement of these services will enhance operational safety, suitability, and effectiveness of the AIDEWS and bolster F-16 FMS fleets’ survivability against electromagnetic threats,’ the DoD noted on 23 April.
Work on the $8.47 million contract from the Air Force Life Cycle Management Center (which includes $1 million of FMS funds obligated at the time of award) will be carried out in Huntsville, Alabama and is scheduled for completion by April 2026.
Pakistan operates F-16C/D and F-16A/B aircraft, while Turkey operates F-16C/Ds.
The AN/ALQ-211(V), manufactured by L3Harris Technologies, is an integrated self-protection system designed to protect fixed-wing aircraft and rotorcraft against RF threats.
Shephard Defence Insight notes that the radar warning receivers and jammers on AIDEWS can be positioned around the aircraft to provide 360-degree coverage. The AN/ALQ-211(V) can also be linked to onboard countermeasure dispensers. 






__





USAF picks Yulista for AIDEWS engineering sustainment | Shephard


Onboard defensive EW suite for Pakistani and Turkish F-16s to be maintained until 2026.



www.shephardmedia.com

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## m52k85

Any airframe design experts here on pdf? I know a lot of folks here have expertise in electronics and computing but i have questions pertaining to things like control surfaces, centre of gravity, chord, sweep etc


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## ghazi52

PAF’s Il-78MP Strategic Airlifter here seen at Airforce Base Makurdi, Nigeria yesterday.
Pakistan delivered the last JF-17N Thunder Block II 4+ Generation Multirole Combat Aircraft to Nigeria yesterday.

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## Deltadart

I hope nigerians paid for the delivery expense?


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## Yasser76

Deltadart said:


> I hope nigerians paid for the delivery expense?



Why is that such a big deal? imagine they probably did, but if it was waived by PAF surely that shows Nigeria how good we are with after sales support no?

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Yasser76 said:


> *USAF picks Yulista for AIDEWS engineering sustainment*
> 
> 
> 
> Onboard defensive EW suite for Pakistani and Turkish F-16s to be maintained until 2026.
> Yulista Services is providing engineering sustainment support for the AN/ALQ-211(V) Advanced Integrated Defense Electronic Warfare Suite (AIDEWS) aboard F-16 aircraft operated by the Pakistani and Turkish air forces.
> ‘Procurement of these services will enhance operational safety, suitability, and effectiveness of the AIDEWS and bolster F-16 FMS fleets’ survivability against electromagnetic threats,’ the DoD noted on 23 April.
> Work on the $8.47 million contract from the Air Force Life Cycle Management Center (which includes $1 million of FMS funds obligated at the time of award) will be carried out in Huntsville, Alabama and is scheduled for completion by April 2026.
> Pakistan operates F-16C/D and F-16A/B aircraft, while Turkey operates F-16C/Ds.
> The AN/ALQ-211(V), manufactured by L3Harris Technologies, is an integrated self-protection system designed to protect fixed-wing aircraft and rotorcraft against RF threats.
> Shephard Defence Insight notes that the radar warning receivers and jammers on AIDEWS can be positioned around the aircraft to provide 360-degree coverage. The AN/ALQ-211(V) can also be linked to onboard countermeasure dispensers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> USAF picks Yulista for AIDEWS engineering sustainment | Shephard
> 
> 
> Onboard defensive EW suite for Pakistani and Turkish F-16s to be maintained until 2026.
> 
> 
> 
> www.shephardmedia.com


Yikes, a contract for 2 specific countries.


Yasser76 said:


> Why is that such a big deal? imagine they probably did, but if it was waived by PAF surely that shows Nigeria how good we are with after sales support no?


The Nigerians are paying on a layaway basis. Basically, they'll only order jets based on the cash they have on hand, and will transfer it ahead of any production work at PAC. We don't have the fiscal room to foot the bill for other countries (no credit facility, no loans, etc).

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## Deltadart

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Yikes, a contract for 2 specific countries.
> 
> The Nigerians are paying on a layaway basis. Basically, they'll only order jets based on the cash they have on hand, and will transfer it ahead of any production work at PAC. We don't have the fiscal room to foot the bill for other countries (no credit facility, no loans, etc).


Agreed, we don't have deep pockets, but keep on squandering money. We as a nation must learn how to make more money. Export, export export.

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## Yasser76

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Yikes, a contract for 2 specific countries.
> 
> The Nigerians are paying on a layaway basis. Basically, they'll only order jets based on the cash they have on hand, and will transfer it ahead of any production work at PAC. We don't have the fiscal room to foot the bill for other countries (no credit facility, no loans, etc).



I am aware of this, I was replying to a question in regards to payment of delivery expense (the IL-76 flight)

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Deltadart said:


> Agreed, we don't have deep pockets, but keep on squandering money. We as a nation must learn how to make more money. Export, export export.


I agree, and sadly, exporting aircraft may not be the golden ticket. We don't have the scale to independently drive airliner sales, nor do we have the clout to get military aircraft buyers.

IMHO, when it comes to exports, our focus points should be automotive, pharmaceuticals, and anything semiconductor related (which is probably the biggest challenge, but IC demand is getting out of control).

That said, we should focus on indigenous aircraft development, but as a manifestation of developing our domestic feeder industries. Basically, we should think along Japan's lines where exporting gear isn't the goal, but rather, developing exportable inputs (e.g., gas turbines, aerostructure materials, engineering and design services, etc) is the focus. Simply, domestic military gear are just an outcome of having those industries in the country, but those industries drive exports for us.

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## Deltadart

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I agree, and sadly, exporting aircraft may not be the golden ticket. We don't have the scale to independently drive airliner sales, nor do we have the clout to get military aircraft buyers.
> 
> IMHO, when it comes to exports, our focus points should be automotive, pharmaceuticals, and anything semiconductor related (which is probably the biggest challenge, but IC demand is getting out of control).
> 
> That said, we should focus on indigenous aircraft development, but as a manifestation of developing our domestic feeder industries. Basically, we should think along Japan's lines where exporting gear isn't the goal, but rather, developing exportable inputs (e.g., gas turbines, aerostructure materials, engineering and design services, etc) is the focus. Simply, domestic military gear are just an outcome of having those industries in the country, but those industries drive exports for us.


Fully agreed. We simply wasted way too much time in developing our economy. We never graduated from exporting raw materials and few processed products into what you outlined above. On a side note, we never stopped smuggling of goods from across our borders, and never stopped imports to develop our domestic industries. The kleptocracies that have looted and plundered Pakistan since it's inception have only one goal in mind, and that is to perpetuate their rule forever. Foreign military and economic aids were secured by selling the sovereignty of Pakistan. These moral cretins pocketed all the money themselves and ruled pakistan as their personal fiefdom.

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## akramishaqkhan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I agree, and sadly, exporting aircraft may not be the golden ticket. We don't have the scale to independently drive airliner sales, nor do we have the clout to get military aircraft buyers.
> 
> IMHO, when it comes to exports, our focus points should be automotive, pharmaceuticals, and anything semiconductor related (which is probably the biggest challenge, but IC demand is getting out of control).
> 
> That said, we should focus on indigenous aircraft development, but as a manifestation of developing our domestic feeder industries. Basically, we should think along Japan's lines where exporting gear isn't the goal, but rather, developing exportable inputs (e.g., gas turbines, aerostructure materials, engineering and design services, etc) is the focus. Simply, domestic military gear are just an outcome of having those industries in the country, but those industries drive exports for us.


If we had smart leaders at the helm - they would procure units from ASML and develop an IC ecosystem and manufacturing plants. Lets say they made an investment of $500MM (develop a decent ecosystem of ASML machines) and make them commercially available to the highest bidders - That investment could radically change our country in the next two decades. But alas I doubt people at the helm even know who ASML is.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

akramishaqkhan said:


> If we had smart leaders at the helm - they would procure units from ASML and develop an IC ecosystem and manufacturing plants. Lets say they made an investment of $500MM (develop a decent ecosystem of ASML machines) and make them commercially available to the highest bidders - That investment could radically change our country in the next two decades. But alas I doubt people at the helm even know who ASML is.


Yep, and if our leaders were incredibly visionary and ambitious, they'd try designing and producing inputs that foundries need in order to manufacture ICs.

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## Sifar zero

I hope the money from Nigeria goes back into R&D e.g the MALE drone or some MRAP.And not in someones HBL account.


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## ghazi52

AMBASSADOR OF CHINA CALLS ON AIR CHIEF

30 April, 2021: Ambassador of the People’s Republic of China, H.E. Mr Nong Rong called on Air Chief Marshal Zaheer Ahmed Baber Sidhu, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force in his office.

Mr Nong Rong congratulated Air Chief Marshal Zaheer Ahmed Baber Sidhu on assuming command of the PAF and said that Pakistan Air Force would achieve new heights and glory under his inspirational leadership.
The Air Chief expressed his satisfaction on the existing cooperation between PAF and PLAAF, and reiterated that this cooperation would be further strengthened.

Various matters of mutual interests and bilateral cooperation were also discussed in the meeting.
PAF SPOKESPERSON

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## Primus

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 738845


Hello there... Is this a recent contract or old?


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## Scorpiooo

ghazi52 said:


> AMBASSADOR OF CHINA CALLS ON AIR CHIEF
> 
> 30 April, 2021: Ambassador of the People’s Republic of China, H.E. Mr Nong Rong called on Air Chief Marshal Zaheer Ahmed Baber Sidhu, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force in his office.
> 
> Mr Nong Rong congratulated Air Chief Marshal Zaheer Ahmed Baber Sidhu on assuming command of the PAF and said that Pakistan Air Force would achieve new heights and glory under his inspirational leadership.
> The Air Chief expressed his satisfaction on the existing cooperation between PAF and PLAAF, and reiterated that this cooperation would be further strengthened.
> 
> Various matters of mutual interests and bilateral cooperation were also discussed in the meeting.
> PAF SPOKESPERSON
> 
> View attachment 738856
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 738857


Interesting paint scheme on JFT model in back


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## Deltadart

Scorpiooo said:


> Interesting paint scheme on JFT model in back


It would be nice to see them in different paint schemes.


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## Windjammer

Huffal said:


> Hello there... Is this a recent contract or old?


My guess is it's an old contract as the address is shown of Nur Khan Base.

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## Primus

Windjammer said:


> My guess is it's an old contract as the address is shown of Nur Khan Base.


Awwww . I was getting hyped for nothing. Why u gotta do me like that?


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## Windjammer

BLAST FROM THE PAST : First group of PAF CCS Instructors (Sargodha Air Base 1976-1977)

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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52



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## Windjammer

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1389219733371768840

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## khanasifm

Windjammer said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1389219733371768840



?? 
So what does he wants ?

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## Windjammer

khanasifm said:


> ??
> So what does he wants ?


The visiting dignitary congratulated the Air Chief on assuming command of the PAF. He also assured of cooperation and support in all spheres of collaboration between the two countries and their Air Forces.

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## Lord Of Gondor



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## litman

ghazi52 said:


> View attachment 739020


100% correct at least about me.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Cookie Monster said:


> I would still be okay if these elites would at least invest in Pakistan in a way that will help the country reduce its import bill. Like they can use their haram money(most likely) to set up industries that are practically non existent in Pakistan. This means instead of importing...Pakistan/Pakistanis can instead buy their products and reduce import bill to an extent...and they would make profit(probably even more so than they do currently).
> 
> But sigh...all they do is the same old same old...sugar mills, textiles, real estate, etc.


Our elites don't see themselves as the leaders or representatives of Pakistanis. Rather, they view themselves as the children of foreign cultures and civilizations. That is *the* difference between our elites and the elites of most other countries (especially the US, Europe and China).

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## Cookie Monster

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Our elites don't see themselves as the leaders or representatives of Pakistanis. Rather, they view themselves as the children of foreign cultures and civilizations. That is *the* difference between our elites and the elites of most other countries (especially the US, Europe and China).


I don't care what they see themselves as...I just want to use the basic nature of humans...namely "greed" towards something positive for Pakistan. I'm sure they love their money...who doesn't. I'm sure they would like to use their current money to make more money. They can make a ton more profit if they entered a new field instead of opening yet another sugar mill...
...they can use their connections(as elites) with the politicians/bureaucrats/military...to ensure that Pakistan buys their products(instead of importing said product). As the first ones to enter some market(whichever it maybe)...they will have no local competition. If they try...they can even come up with a comparable product(to the foreign equivalent) at a cheaper price owing to the cheaper labor costs in Pak.

This will provide some jobs for Pakistanis, take away business of some foreign company(keeping precious resources of Pakistanis out of their hands)...instead this money that used to go out will end up in the hands of these elites, which is not ideal...but at least it will give them incentive to do more of what they did...and hopefully it will start this cycle below...
...invest in Pakistan by setting up some industry...based on identifying things Pak imports...use their capital to provide local alternatives...use their influence to bribe their way into making those in power to buy their products...profit...repeat.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Cookie Monster said:


> I don't care what they see themselves as...I just want to use the basic nature of humans...namely "greed" towards something positive for Pakistan. I'm sure they love their money...who doesn't. I'm sure they would like to use their current money to make more money. They can make a ton more profit if they entered a new field instead of opening yet another sugar mill...
> ...they can use their connections(as elites) with the politicians/bureaucrats/military...to ensure that Pakistan buys their products(instead of importing said product). As the first ones to enter some market(whichever it maybe)...they will have no local competition. If they try...they can even come up with a comparable product(to the foreign equivalent) at a cheaper price owing to the cheaper labor costs in Pak.
> 
> This will provide some jobs for Pakistanis, take away business of some foreign company(keeping precious resources of Pakistanis out of their hands)...instead this money that used to go out will end up in the hands of these elites, which is not ideal...but at least it will give them incentive to do more of what they did...and hopefully it will start this cycle below...
> ...invest in Pakistan by setting up some industry...based on identifying things Pak imports...use their capital to provide local alternatives...use their influence to bribe their way into making those in power to buy their products...profit...repeat.


Yea, but even that takes some kind of pride in Pakistan and being Pakistani. Yes, if you're profit driven, you'll invest and set-up big businesses. But to get there, you need vision and pride in yourself and society, which our elites lack.

Besides, if greed alone was the motivating factor, then we should accept laziness too. As far as our elites are concerned, they're doing everything they need to keep their bellies full. If they don't have the vision to win at the global stage, they won't go further than where they're at now.

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## Cookie Monster

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Yea, but even that takes some kind of pride in Pakistan and being Pakistani. Yes, if you're profit driven, you'll invest and set-up big businesses. But to get there, you need vision and pride in yourself and society, which our elites lack.
> 
> Besides, if greed alone was the motivating factor, then we should accept laziness too. As far as our elites are concerned, they're doing everything they need to keep their bellies full. If they don't have the vision to win at the global stage, they won't go further than where they're at now.


Greed is greed...once u let it run rampant...it takes control of u. All they lack is vision. They may not take pride in being Pakistanis...but if they thought logically...about how to maximize their profits...then it is in Pakistan they have the home field advantage. They will not have the same sway with other elites or with those in power...in any other country...as they do in Pakistan. So they can see themselves as American, European, or whatever else...they will never have that advantage there that they can exploit in Pakistan.

Laziness is a factor here. This is why they keep beating the same dead horse doing the same old same old that their grandpa was doing..bcuz it's "good enough". If they had more vision...they can profit more...directly
..and Pakistan will gain somewhat indirectly.

In short...it will create Pak's version of Ambani and Tata.

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## StructE

Cookie Monster said:


> I don't care what they see themselves as...I just want to use the basic nature of humans...namely "greed" towards something positive for Pakistan. I'm sure they love their money...who doesn't. I'm sure they would like to use their current money to make more money. They can make a ton more profit if they entered a new field instead of opening yet another sugar mill...
> ...they can use their connections(as elites) with the politicians/bureaucrats/military...to ensure that Pakistan buys their products(instead of importing said product). As the first ones to enter some market(whichever it maybe)...they will have no local competition. If they try...they can even come up with a comparable product(to the foreign equivalent) at a cheaper price owing to the cheaper labor costs in Pak.
> 
> This will provide some jobs for Pakistanis, take away business of some foreign company(keeping precious resources of Pakistanis out of their hands)...instead this money that used to go out will end up in the hands of these elites, which is not ideal...but at least it will give them incentive to do more of what they did...and hopefully it will start this cycle below...
> ...invest in Pakistan by setting up some industry...based on identifying things Pak imports...use their capital to provide local alternatives...use their influence to bribe their way into making those in power to buy their products...profit...repeat.


Greed alone will not work unless you have a stick with it, greed is the one driving capital out of the country via money laundering and illegal transaction.

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## ghazi52



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## Windjammer



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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52



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## fatman17

JF-17 Thunder jets of Pakistan Air Force will participate in "Anatolian Eagle 2021" Exercise in Turkey starting from the first week of June [emoji1250] [emoji298] [emoji1191] https://t.co/jyP3BjQ6V0

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## Ltanspotter

fatman17 said:


> JF-17 Thunder jets of Pakistan Air Force will participate in "Anatolian Eagle 2021" Exercise in Turkey starting from the first week of June [emoji1250] [emoji298] [emoji1191] https://t.co/jyP3BjQ6V0
> View attachment 743632


We look forward to the arrival of the green painted one, I hope

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## fatman17

Ltanspotter said:


> We look forward to the arrival of the green painted one, I hope


Unfortunately being upgraded

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## fatman17

Pakistani F-16 Fighting Falcon Fleet [emoji1191]

[emoji666]23 F-16A MLU Fighting Falcon; 
[emoji666]21 F-16B MLU Fighting Falcon; 
[emoji666]9 F-16A ADF Fighting Falcon; 
[emoji666]4 F-16B ADF Fighting Falcon; 
[emoji666]12 F-16C Block 52 Fighting Falcon; 
[emoji666]6 F-16D Block 52 Fighting Falcon; https://t.co/0NBJFqdl2j

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## Ltanspotter

Hi again,

Is there any info about arrival time's of Pakistan Air Force aircrafts ? Also any info about cargo transport ?

As local spotters in Konya, we wanted to catch and share with you  

Cheers.

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## ghazi52

Vice Chief of Air Staff,
Air Marshal Syed Noman Ali, HI(M), SI(M) was commissioned in GD (P) branch of Pakistan Air Force in April 1986.

Chief Project Director JF17 at Air HQ,
Deputy Chief of Air Staff (Operations),
Chairman Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC),

Commanded Combat Commanders School & an Operational Air Base, served as Director Operations & Personal Staff Officer to Chief of the Air Staff, IG Air Force, Graduate of Combat Commanders School, Air War College, Air War College (USA), & National Defence University

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## Ltanspotter

Pakistan will attend Anatolian Eagle exercise which planned at the end of june. Not First of june. No arrivals seen yesterday and today.

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## Windjammer



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## khanasifm

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 747002



?


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## Windjammer

khanasifm said:


> ?


Samosa .

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## ghazi52

AIR VICE MARSHAL IRFAN AHMAD PROMOTED TO THE RANK OF AIR MARSHAL

28 MAY, 2021: Air Vice Marshal Irfan Ahmad has been promoted to the rank of Air Marshal.








Air Marshal Irfan Ahmad was commissioned in GD (P) Branch of Pakistan Air Force in June, 1988. During his illustrious career, he has commanded a Fighter Squadron, a Flying Wing and two Operational Air Bases. He has served as Director General Welfare & Rehab at Air Headquarters, Islamabad. He has also performed his duties as Air Officer Commanding, Central Air Command.

Presently, he is serving as Director General (Projects) at Air Headquarters Islamabad. He is a graduate of Combat Commanders’ School and National Defence University. He holds Master’s degree in Security Studies from USA and M Phil in Public Policy & Security Management. He is a recipient of Tamgha-i-Imtiaz (Military), Sitara-i-Imtiaz (Military) and Hilal-i-Imtiaz (Military)

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## Windjammer

Satellite image shows Saudi Tornados parked on Sargodha flight line during an exercise earlier this year.

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## truthseeker2010

ghazi52 said:


> AIR VICE MARSHAL IRFAN AHMAD PROMOTED TO THE RANK OF AIR MARSHAL
> 
> 28 MAY, 2021: Air Vice Marshal Irfan Ahmad has been promoted to the rank of Air Marshal.
> 
> 
> View attachment 748575
> 
> 
> 
> Air Marshal Irfan Ahmad was commissioned in GD (P) Branch of Pakistan Air Force in June, 1988. During his illustrious career, he has commanded a Fighter Squadron, a Flying Wing and two Operational Air Bases. He has served as Director General Welfare & Rehab at Air Headquarters, Islamabad. He has also performed his duties as Air Officer Commanding, Central Air Command.
> 
> Presently, he is serving as Director General (Projects) at Air Headquarters Islamabad. He is a graduate of Combat Commanders’ School and National Defence University. He holds Master’s degree in Security Studies from USA and M Phil in Public Policy & Security Management. He is a recipient of Tamgha-i-Imtiaz (Military), Sitara-i-Imtiaz (Military) and Hilal-i-Imtiaz (Military)



The "Mysterious" GIBS of Hassan siddiqui on 27th.

He was the air boss of the op swift retort.


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## Talon

Thunders escort President of Tajikistan..RT included





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=861565061234284

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## Syed1.

Damn that was cool!


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## TsAr

Hodor said:


> Thunders escort President of Tajikistan..RT included
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=861565061234284


thank you for sharing this in the right thread and not opening a new one.

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## fatman17

ITS OFFICIAL:

The Nigerian Air Force will be aquiring at least two Squadrons of the JF-17 multi-role fighter. https://t.co/iwnDB35zDq

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## fatman17

fatman17 said:


> ITS OFFICIAL:
> 
> The Nigerian Air Force will be aquiring at least two Squadrons of the JF-17 multi-role fighter. https://t.co/iwnDB35zDq
> View attachment 750181


Thats 32 in total


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## Scorpiooo

fatman17 said:


> ITS OFFICIAL:
> 
> The Nigerian Air Force will be aquiring at least two Squadrons of the JF-17 multi-role fighter. https://t.co/iwnDB35zDq
> View attachment 750181


Those will be block 2 or block 3 ?

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## fatman17

Scorpiooo said:


> Those will be block 2 or block 3 ?


I'm not sure but most likely block2

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## Ghessan

fatman17 said:


> ITS OFFICIAL:
> 
> The Nigerian Air Force will be aquiring at least two Squadrons of the JF-17 multi-role fighter. https://t.co/iwnDB35zDq
> View attachment 750181


is this official source?


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## GriffinsRule

Ghessan said:


> is this official source?


No its not.


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## fatman17

Ghessan said:


> is this official source?


It's a Nigerian source. Nothing is official until it happens


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## Scorpiooo

Scorpiooo said:


> Those will be block 2 or block 3 ?


If its block 2 deal, then means in future PAC will produce block 2 along with block 3 together

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## ghazi52

Air Chief Marshal Zaheer Ahmed Babar Sidhu , Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force visited Command and Staff College, Quetta.








Addressing the course participants at the College, the Air Chief said that in contemporary warfare, air power had become the most effective element of military power.

He added that a deeper and clear understanding of its application along with associated challenges and advantages was essential for joint operations planning and execution.

Referring to the regional geo-political environment, the Air Chief said that the PAF was fully cognizant of the security challenges and was actively pursuing its operational development plans.

He further added that PAF attaches utmost importance to operational preparedness and remains ready to respond to any challenge to the national security of Pakistan.

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## fatman17

Scorpiooo said:


> If its block 2 deal, then means in future PAC will produce block 2 along with block 3 together


Shouldn't be a problem


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## Windjammer

*4 PAF officers promoted to the rank of Air Vice Marshal*








__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1403329255606349824

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## Windjammer

It should be noted that AM Khalid Mehmood is a former JF-17 display pilot.

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## ghazi52

Chief of the Naval Staff Admiral Muhammad Amjad Khan Niazi, called on Air Chief Marshal Zaheer Ahmed Baber Sidhu, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force at Air Headquarters, Islamabad today. 
Both the Services Chiefs reiterated to further augment the existing synergy between the two services and take it to new heights.

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## khanasifm

Windjammer said:


> It should be noted that AM Khalid Mehmood is a former JF-17 display pilot.



Nothing to do with getting the rank, could be from any f-7 mirage or f-16 background [emoji6]


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## Windjammer

khanasifm said:


> Nothing to do with getting the rank, could be from any f-7 mirage or f-16 background [emoji6]


Never implied that, just remembered him from his visit to Farnborough some years back with JF-17 contingent.


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## Ali_Baba

Windjammer said:


> It should be noted that AM Khalid Mehmood is a former JF-17 display pilot.



The guy that is top left on the picture? I thought i recognised him - it was soo long ago. If so - I met him at Farnborough when he bought the JF17 to the UK for the first time.

Good to see him progress if that was him - he was a v.v. smart cookie when i spoke to him. I was very impressed with him and his articulation of the sorts things he was alllowed to discussed and his poite firmness when i crossed the line! 

Small world!

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## mingle

Ali_Baba said:


> The guy that is top left on the picture? I thought i recognised him - it was soo long ago. If so - I met him at Farnborough when he bought the JF17 to the UK for the first time.
> 
> Good to see him progress if that was him - he was a v.v. smart cookie when i spoke to him. I was very impressed with him and his articulation of the sorts things he was alllowed to discussed and his poite firmness when i crossed the line!
> 
> Small world!


It's Him was Wing commander that time


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## Talon

CCS F7s come to an end..

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## Shabi1

Hodor said:


> CCS F7s come to an end..
> 
> View attachment 752926
> 
> 
> View attachment 752927


So F-7P is with PAF no more?


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## Reichmarshal

PG to soldier on


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## iLION12345_1

Shabi1 said:


> So F-7P is with PAF no more?



Yep, all F-7Ps are gone. F7PG variants will remain in service till at least 2025 still, but those are safer and more capable than F7P.


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## Ali_Baba

iLION12345_1 said:


> Yep, all F-7Ps are gone. F7PG variants will remain in service till at least 2025 still, but those are safer and more capable than F7P.



Was there a decomissioining ceremony for the F7s? Or is that for when the F7PGs go ?


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## iLION12345_1

Ali_Baba said:


> Was there a decomissioining ceremony for the F7s? Or is that for when the F7PGs go ?


F7s were decommissioned from all combat squadrons back in 2020, a few remained with CCS which are also decommissioned now. There were smaller ceremonies when some squadrons replaced them with JFs but I don’t believe there was a large one to bid farewell to the entire type. That will likely be when F7PG is replaced because the Air Force seems to make less of a distinction between the two types (like Mirage III and 5)

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## mingle

Hodor said:


> CCS F7s come to an end..
> 
> View attachment 752926
> 
> 
> View attachment 752927


Now I understand why F7s from CCS did fly past at 23march it was last farewell


Reichmarshal said:


> PG to soldier on


I believe blk3 will eat them up as well Time to let go 50s design

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## Yasser76

Looks like JF-17 will face off against Qatari Rafales at Anatolian Eagle! 

View attachment 753275

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## fatman17

2021

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## Yasser76

fatman17 said:


> 2021
> View attachment 753308



Dude, I literally just posted that


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## khanasifm

fatman17 said:


> 2021
> View attachment 753308



Going against Rafael and f-16 [emoji6]


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## Ali_Baba

fatman17 said:


> 2021
> View attachment 753308



Fantastic news !! I cant wait for the picture - will turn the Saffron Dhoti's a special shade of brown ...

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## Danish Moazzam

One thing to Note is that the JF-17 is leading with F-16 and Rafale on either sides. So if this is an official patch from PK then it is showing that PK has shifted emphasis from F-16 to Thunders.

My understanding is The most potent fighter aircraft are listed in the patch, Thunders from Pak, Vipers from Turkey and Rafale from Qatar


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## Moon

Windjammer said:


> It should be noted that AM Khalid Mehmood is a former JF-17 display pilot.


Is he the first Thunder pilot to become AVM?


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## khanasifm

Mr.Meap said:


> Is he the first Thunder pilot to become AVM?



He has flown mirages/f-7 f-16, and thunder


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## m52k85

Windjammer said:


> *4 PAF officers promoted to the rank of Air Vice Marshal*
> 
> View attachment 752399
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1403329255606349824


What do the different wings on the breast represent? One has a red crescent, the other three have a 'E'..


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## khanasifm

m52k85 said:


> What do the different wings on the breast represent? One has a red crescent, the other three have a 'E'..



Engineering

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## fatman17

m52k85 said:


> What do the different wings on the breast represent? One has a red crescent, the other three have a 'E'..


E must be engineering


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## fatman17

Yasser76 said:


> Dude, I literally just posted that


No harm done


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## Moon

khanasifm said:


> He has flown mirages/f-7 f-16, and thunder


No I mean of all AVMs is he the first Thunder pilot to reach this rank? Or have previous AVMs also been Thunder pilots?


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## wasileo80

Mr.Meap said:


> Is he the first Thunder pilot to become AVM?


No, the very first JF-17 pilot who flew the JF-17 on 23rd March 2007 and perform the solo display was AVM Ch. Ahsen Rafique then Wing Commander. He was perhaps also the first test pilot of JF-17 from PAF.

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## Air Wolf

m52k85 said:


> What do the different wings on the breast represent? One has a red crescent, the other three have a 'E'..



E is for Engineering branch. Crescent is for GDP branch. Crescent color (White, Blue, Red) depends on the number of flying hours. Also the shape of wings is different for Engineering and GDP branches

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## ghazi52

04 PAF OFFICERS PROMOTED TO THE RANK OF AIR VICE MARSHAL

15 June, 2021: The government has promoted 04 PAF officers to the rank of Air Vice Marshal. The promoted officers include
Air Vice Marshal Shahid Mansoor Jehangiri, 
Air Vice Marshal Kashif Qamar, 
Air Vice Marshal Asim Rashid Malik and 
Air Vice Marshal Syed Hasan Kashif.

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## ghazi52

https://nation.com.pk/NewsSource/web-desk
*Web Desk*
7:09 PM | June 15, 2021


Ambassador of Qatar H.E. Sheikh Saoud bin Abdulrahman Al-Thani called on Air Chief Marshal Zaheer Ahmed Baber Sidhu, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force in his office today.

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## ghazi52

*15 June, 2021: *The government has promoted 04 PAF officers to the rank of Air Vice Marshal. The promoted officers include Air Vice Marshal Shahid Mansoor Jehangiri, Air Vice Marshal Kashif Qamar, Air Vice Marshal Asim Rashid Malik and Air Vice Marshal Syed Hasan Kashif.

*Air Vice Marshal Shahid Mansoor Jehangiri *was commissioned in GD (P) Branch of Pakistan Air Force in May, 1991. During his career, he has commanded a fighter squadron, a flying wing and an operational air base. He has also served as Deputy Director General Air Intelligence at Air Headquarters, Islamabad. He is a recipient of Sitara-i-Imtiaz (Military).

*Air Vice Marshal Kashif Qamar* was commissioned in GD (P) Branch of Pakistan Air Force in May, 1991. During his career, he has commanded a fighter squadron, a flying wing and an air base. He has also served as Assistant Chief of the Air Staff (Safety) at Air Headquarters, Islamabad. He is a recipient of Sitara-i-Imtiaz (Military).

*Air Vice Marshal Asim Rashid Malik *was commissioned in Engineering Branch of Pakistan Air Force in December, 1991. During his career, he has commanded an engineering wing. He has also served as Managing Director Mirage Rebuild Factory, Kamra. He is a recipient of Sitara-i-Imtiaz (Military).

*Air Vice Marshal Syed Hasan Kashif *was commissioned in Engineering Branch of Pakistan Air Force in December, 1991. During his career, he has commanded an engineering depot and served as Deputy Managing Director (Avionics) at Kamra. He has also served as Assistant Chief of the Air Staff (Electronics Engineering) at Air Headquarters, Islamabad. He is a recipient of Sitara-i-Imtiaz (Military).

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## Pakistan Ka Beta

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1405163139763687442

16 June, 2021: Ambassador of Romania H.E. Nicolae Goia called on Air Chief Marshal Zaheer Ahmed Baber Sidhu, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force in his office today. Ambassador H.E. Nicolae Goia commended the professionalism of PAF and acknowledged its indigenization initiatives. The Air Chief said that both the countries enjoyed cordial relations with each other. He also extended his all out support to enhance mutual cooperation between the two Air Forces. Various matters of mutual interest and professional support also came under discussion during the meeting.









__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1404801822250971157



15 June, 2021: Ambassador of Qatar H.E. Sheikh Saoud bin Abdulrahman Al-Thani called on Air Chief Marshal Zaheer Ahmed Baber Sidhu, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force in his office today. During the meeting, both the dignitaries discussed matters of professional and mutual interest. Ambassador H.E. Sheikh Saoud bin Abdulrahman Al-Thani commended the professionalism of PAF and acknowledged its rising indigenous capacity in aviation industry. The Air Chief said that Pakistan and Qatar had longstanding religious, cultural and historical bonds which were manifested through strong ties between Qatar Air Force and Pakistan Air Force. The Air Chief also emphasised upon the significance of further deepening the relations between the two Air Forces.











        View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram






        View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram

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## Pakistan Ka Beta

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1405162803489554436


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1405163139763687442



        View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram

16 June, 2021: Ambassador of Romania H.E. Nicolae Goia called on Air Chief Marshal Zaheer Ahmed Baber Sidhu, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force in his office today. Ambassador H.E. Nicolae Goia commended the professionalism of PAF and acknowledged its indigenization initiatives. The Air Chief said that both the countries enjoyed cordial relations with each other. He also extended his all out support to enhance mutual cooperation between the two Air Forces. Various matters of mutual interest and professional support also came under discussion during the meeting.

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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1405512471687970822

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## ghazi52

Chief of the Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Zaheer Ahmed Baber Sidhu at Pakistan Navy War College (PNWC), Lahore.

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## khanasifm

ghazi52 said:


> Chief of the Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Zaheer Ahmed Baber Sidhu at Pakistan Navy War College (PNWC), Lahore.
> 
> 
> View attachment 754650


Poor short lady in the back and mashtandas in The front [emoji23]

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## fatman17

The #Nigeria|n AF recently took delivery of 3 #Pakistan|i made JF-17s. Paraphrasing @Justin_Br0nk: it was ease of maintenance, composite airframe, a proven Russian engine & digital avionics that made the JF-17 the ideal platform for the budget conscious NAF. More orders expected. https://t.co/vvl6B5ORpn

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## ghazi52

AIR CHIEF EXPRESSES GRIEF OVER THE SAD DEMISE OF AIR MARSHAL (RETD) SAEED ANWER

21 June, 2021:- Air Chief Marshal Zaheer Ahmed Baber Sidhu, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force has expressed his earnest commiseration and grief over the sad demise of Air Marshal (Retd) Saeed Anwer.

Air Marshal (Retd) Saeed Anwer was the first Chief Project Director of Project Super-7 which later evolved into JF-17 Programme; rendering him as one of the founding fathers of the JF-17 Project.

In his condolence message, the Air Chief said, “May Allah bestow the departed soul higher ranks in Heaven and grant patience to the bereaved family”. At this sad occasion, our hearts reach out to the bereaved family in grief."

The Air Chief further added that the valuable contributions of the late Air Marshal towards Pakistan's
self-reliance in aviation industry and defence production, would always be remembered.
*PAF SPOKESPERSON*

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## AMRAAM

Some more promotions.



https://www.youtube.com/post/UgzBzkJ8C0JlFCEzW8Z4AaABCQ


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## ghazi52



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## AMRAAM

AMRAAM said:


> Some more promotions.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/post/UgzBzkJ8C0JlFCEzW8Z4AaABCQ



Pakistan Air Force2 days ago

03 PAF OFFICERS PROMOTED TO THE RANK OF AIR VICE MARSHAL 22 June, 2021: The government has promoted 03 PAF officers to the rank of Air Vice Marshal. The promoted Air officers include Air Vice Marshal Imran Saif, Air Vice Marshal Hussain Ahmed Siddiqui and Air Vice Marshal Zaeem Afzal. Air Vice Marshal Imran Saif was commissioned in Air Defence Branch of Pakistan Air Force in June, 1990. During his career, he has commanded an air defence squadron and an operational wing. He has also served as Sector Commander, South Sector and Assistant Chief of the Air Staff (Air Defence) at Air Headquarters, Islamabad. He is a recipient of Sitara-i-Imtiaz (Military). Air Vice Marshal Hussain Ahmed Siddiqui was commissioned in GD (P) Branch of Pakistan Air Force in December, 1991. During his career, he has commanded a fighter squadron, a flying wing and an air base. He has also served as Deputy Commandant Air War College Institute, Faisal. He is a recipient of Sitara-i-Imtiaz (Military). Air Vice Marshal Zaeem Afzal was commissioned in GD (P) Branch of Pakistan Air Force in December, 1991. During his career, he has commanded a fighter squadron, Combat Commanders’ School and an operational air base. He has also served as Deputy Chief Project Director (Ops) of JF-17 Project at Air Headquarters, Islamabad. He is a recipient of Sitara-i-Imtiaz (Military). *PAF SPOKESPERSON*








AMRAAM said:


> Pakistan Air Force2 days ago
> 
> 03 PAF OFFICERS PROMOTED TO THE RANK OF AIR VICE MARSHAL 22 June, 2021: The government has promoted 03 PAF officers to the rank of Air Vice Marshal. The promoted Air officers include Air Vice Marshal Imran Saif, Air Vice Marshal Hussain Ahmed Siddiqui and Air Vice Marshal Zaeem Afzal. Air Vice Marshal Imran Saif was commissioned in Air Defence Branch of Pakistan Air Force in June, 1990. During his career, he has commanded an air defence squadron and an operational wing. He has also served as Sector Commander, South Sector and Assistant Chief of the Air Staff (Air Defence) at Air Headquarters, Islamabad. He is a recipient of Sitara-i-Imtiaz (Military). Air Vice Marshal Hussain Ahmed Siddiqui was commissioned in GD (P) Branch of Pakistan Air Force in December, 1991. During his career, he has commanded a fighter squadron, a flying wing and an air base. He has also served as Deputy Commandant Air War College Institute, Faisal. He is a recipient of Sitara-i-Imtiaz (Military). Air Vice Marshal Zaeem Afzal was commissioned in GD (P) Branch of Pakistan Air Force in December, 1991. During his career, he has commanded a fighter squadron, Combat Commanders’ School and an operational air base. He has also served as Deputy Chief Project Director (Ops) of JF-17 Project at Air Headquarters, Islamabad. He is a recipient of Sitara-i-Imtiaz (Military). *PAF SPOKESPERSON*



Good to see Grp Captain Zaeem being promoted. Saw him first time during the Mahaaz show.


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## ghazi52



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## CombatSurgeon

An image of IDFAF airbase at Ovda. A peripheral base but look at the level of layout, design and overall quality. In comparison our own recently built Bholari is plain and rustic.
Just my thoughts, by the way


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## mingle

ghazi52 said:


> View attachment 756031


Blk3 & Bravo


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## Great Janjua

CombatSurgeon said:


> View attachment 756101
> 
> An image of IDFAF airbase at Ovda. A peripheral base but look at the level of layout, design and overall quality. In comparison our own recently built Bholari is plain and rustic.
> Just my thoughts, by the way


Indians are making improvements whilst we keep running back to Feb 2019 also that is a beautiful airbase


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## Yasser76

CombatSurgeon said:


> View attachment 756101
> 
> An image of IDFAF airbase at Ovda. A peripheral base but look at the level of layout, design and overall quality. In comparison our own recently built Bholari is plain and rustic.
> Just my thoughts, by the way



Not really a like for like comparison, yes, Bholari is austere, but Shabaz is very similar in layout to the above, as is Masroor.


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## CombatSurgeon

Yasser76 said:


> Not really a like for like comparison, yes, Bholari is austere, but Shabaz is very similar in layout to the above, as is Masroor.


 Look at the links between runways, HAS construction and camo, siting of support structures- everything is superb. For Shahbaz or Masroor which are main bases you must compare with Tel Nof or Hatzerim.


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## Windjammer

CombatSurgeon said:


> View attachment 756101
> 
> An image of IDFAF airbase at Ovda. A peripheral base but look at the level of layout, design and overall quality. In comparison our own recently built Bholari is plain and rustic.
> Just my thoughts, by the way

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## ghazi52



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## Moon

I don't know if this is the right place to ask, but what are the chances PAF will induct High Altitude Pseudo-Satellites into it's inventory,? They're dirt cheap compared to a real satellite and can provide live imagery of the battlefield.
They can be a game changer in counter-terrorism operations as well as border management. From live imagery of an area, to providing secure comms to troops....

I'm thinking something like the Airbus Zephyr, NASA Pathfinder or Boeings SolarEagle.
A squadron of HAPS could be a game changer.

@JamD @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @waz 
Well?


----------



## Moon

CombatSurgeon said:


> View attachment 756101
> 
> An image of IDFAF airbase at Ovda. A peripheral base but look at the level of layout, design and overall quality. In comparison our own recently built Bholari is plain and rustic.
> Just my thoughts, by the way


We need half a dozen such bases in Baluchistan to curb stomp the terrorists there, such bases can be used for drone and CT operations.


----------



## Scorpiooo

Moon said:


> We need half a dozen such bases in Baluchistan to curb stomp the terrorists there, such bases can be used for drone and CT operations.


They will cost alot... it very unlikely to have such number


----------



## Moon

Scorpiooo said:


> They will cost alot... it very unlikely to have such number


Airbus Zephyr costs 5mil, can stay in air for 90 days.


----------



## Scorpiooo

Moon said:


> Airbus Zephyr costs 5mil, can stay in air for 90 days.


This is upfront cost ... maintenance, running, infrastructure and training cost need to taken into account


----------



## Moon

Scorpiooo said:


> This is upfront cost ... maintenance, running, infrastructure and training cost need to taken into account


I mean, it's still going to be cheaper than a fighter jet.


----------



## fatman17

F-16 Air Warriors Club of #PakistanAirForce [emoji1191] 

No. 5 Sqn 
No. 9 Sqn
No. 11 Sqn 
No. 19 Sqn
No. 29 Sqn https://t.co/c4zoZeLwoC

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## Raider 21

fatman17 said:


> F-16 Air Warriors Club of #PakistanAirForce [emoji1191]
> 
> No. 5 Sqn
> No. 9 Sqn
> No. 11 Sqn
> No. 19 Sqn
> No. 29 Sqn https://t.co/c4zoZeLwoC
> View attachment 757024


When pride exceeds ego's grasp, then patches like this come up. They should stick with the originals and come up with better ones.

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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52

Air Chief Marshal Zaheer Ahmed Babar Sidhu, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force, was awarded Legion of Merit of Turkish Armed Forces in recognition of his outstanding services for promotion of collaboration and ties between the two air forces. General Hasan KÜÇÜKAKYÜZ, Commander Turkish Air Force, presented the medal.

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## hassan1



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## Windjammer



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## ghazi52

The Air Chief appreciated the efforts put in by Flag of Turkey defence industry for indigenization & modernizing its defence fleet. He also reiterated his commitment to take Pakistan-Turkey military industry cooperation to new heights by capitalizing on the respective strengths of each side.
1:00 PM · Jun 30, 2021

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## mingle

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 758135


FuturePAF

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## JamD

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 758135


He's there to expediate visas lol. Yes I know not literally but ...


----------



## ghazi52



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## ghazi52

Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee (CJCSC), General Nadeem Raza has expressed willingness of the Government of Pakistan to deepen its technical .& defence cooperation with Nigerian Air Force (NAF) in view of current & emerging security challenges.

CAS of NAF Air Marshal Amao described the long-standing and mutually beneficial bilateral relationship between Pakistan and Nigeria as heart-warming and better exemplified by the symbiotic partnership between the NAF and PAF.

Air Marshal Amao disclosed that the acquisition of the 10 Super Mushshak trainer aircraft, along with the training of NAF instructor pilots and ground crew has helped in boosting the operational capacities of the NAF.

CAS also acknowledged Pakistan's efforts in the areas of technical and operational support for the maintenance of NAF F-7Ni fleet and the local conduct of Periodic Depot Maintenance for the NAF C-130 Hercules aircraft. He noted recent acquisition of 3 JF-17 Thunder

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## Eagle_Nest

ACM(Rtd) Sohail Aman full interview | By Pakistan Mirror | Facebook


134K views, 2.3K likes, 301 loves, 113 comments, 556 shares, Facebook Watch Videos from Pakistan Mirror: ACM(Rtd) Sohail Aman full interview




fb.watch


----------



## fatman17

#Pakistan is set to receive 36 J10-Cs semi-stealth, 4.5 gen advanced fighter Jets from #China by the end of 2021. 

#HSIA #Defence #SouthAsia https://t.co/8E6XInplZ3

HERE WE GO AGAIN


----------



## fatman17

fatman17 said:


> #Pakistan is set to receive 36 J10-Cs semi-stealth, 4.5 gen advanced fighter Jets from #China by the end of 2021.
> 
> #HSIA #Defence #SouthAsia https://t.co/8E6XInplZ3
> 
> HERE WE GO AGAIN
> View attachment 759945
> View attachment 759946
> View attachment 759947


To admit, there are rumours since months and indeed I‘m almost sure there is something in the making … however I‘ll prefer to wait and I‘m a bit surprised by the small numbers. In fact if true, I expect a larger number of about three squadrons.

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## SQ8

fatman17 said:


> To admit, there are rumours since months and indeed I‘m almost sure there is something in the making … however I‘ll prefer to wait and I‘m a bit surprised by the small numbers. In fact if true, I expect a larger number of about three squadrons.


They are cyclic as well - some from here and others from twitter. Not that these may not be enroute since the final confirmation is the Indian Chiefs statement about getting additional Rafale’s if PAF inducts another aircraft.

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## syed_yusuf

SQ8 said:


> They are cyclic as well - some from here and others from twitter. Not that these may not be enroute since the final confirmation is the Indian Chiefs statement about getting additional Rafale’s if PAF inducts another aircraft.


With french investigation, indian future rafel acquisition remains a mirage 

However paf might just acquire close to 4 full squadron plus 10 extra examples for ccs


----------



## ghazi52



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## Scorpiooo

fatman17 said:


> #Pakistan is set to receive 36 J10-Cs semi-stealth, 4.5 gen advanced fighter Jets from #China by the end of 2021.
> 
> #HSIA #Defence #SouthAsia https://t.co/8E6XInplZ3
> 
> HERE WE GO AGAIN
> View attachment 759945
> View attachment 759946
> View attachment 759947


When did J10C become semi stealth?


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## araz

Scorpiooo said:


> When did J10C become semi stealth?


Why do you think we have not been able to see the landed platforms! You maynot even see these when they arrive in 6months when normal delivery times range upto 3years.
A

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## Abid123

fatman17 said:


> To admit, there are rumours since months and indeed I‘m almost sure there is something in the making … however I‘ll prefer to wait and I‘m a bit surprised by the small numbers. In fact if true, I expect a larger number of about three squadrons.


How many fighters are there in a PAF squadron?


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## Scorpiooo

Abid123 said:


> How many fighters are there in a PAF squadron?


On papers 18 per sqd, but on reality some sqd are less


----------



## ghazi52

A C-130, Mirage IIIs and JF-17A Thunders from the Pakistan




Air Force to display their skills in the skies of the UK



tomorrow. PAF will participate in the Virtual Royal International Air Tattoo 2021.

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## ghazi52

Hope everyone have purchased their "Qurbani". Now do well to take care of them & dispose their filth properly. We don't wanna see any bird strikes .

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## ghazi52

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1416437349848858627

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## Windjammer



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## ghazi52

*Syed Zohaib Zaidi Photography*

Eid Ul Adha is eid of sacrifice, and commitment to Allah’s orders, May Allah bless us with the same in all circles of life and help all amongst us, who are helpless, worried, and waiting for his rehmat. Ameen.

Eid al-Adha Mubarak!

Regards,
Syed Zohaib Zaidi

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## ghazi52



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## Raider 21

ghazi52 said:


> *Syed Zohaib Zaidi Photography*
> 
> Eid Ul Adha is eid of sacrifice, and commitment to Allah’s orders, May Allah bless us with the same in all circles of life and help all amongst us, who are helpless, worried, and waiting for his rehmat. Ameen.
> 
> Eid al-Adha Mubarak!
> 
> Regards,
> Syed Zohaib Zaidi
> 
> 
> View attachment 763640


Eid Mubarak to you too !!!

This is a fantastic maneuver they have added to their display. I hope they expand and add more.

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## Thorough Pro

Show stealer? really?
Probably he didn't watch the 6 hour long video









ghazi52 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1416437349848858627


----------



## alee92nawaz

fatman17 said:


> #Pakistan is set to receive 36 J10-Cs semi-stealth, 4.5 gen advanced fighter Jets from #China by the end of 2021.
> 
> #HSIA #Defence #SouthAsia https://t.co/8E6XInplZ3
> 
> HERE WE GO AGAIN
> View attachment 759945
> View attachment 759946
> View attachment 759947


Account with 300 odd followers lol


----------



## Talon

Raider 21 said:


> When pride exceeds ego's grasp, then patches like this come up. They should stick with the originals and come up with better ones.


Pakistanis have a bad repute in global patches community because of copying the designs... thanks to the likes of Syed Irtiza.

This guy is atleast coming up with his own designs instead of copying.


----------



## ghazi52

29 July, 2021: General Rudzani Maphwanya, Chief of South African National Defence Forces called on Air Chief Marshal Zaheer Ahmed Baber Sidhu, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force in his office today.

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## ghazi52

*
02 PAF OFFICERS PROMOTED TO THE RANK OF AIR MARSHAL*

30 July, 2021: The Government of Pakistan has promoted 02 PAF officers to the rank of Air Marshal. The promoted Air Officers include Air Marshal Zulfiquar Ahmad Qureshi and Air Marshal Muhammad Mughees Afzal.







Air Marshal Zulfiquar Ahmad Qureshi was commissioned in GD (P) Branch of Pakistan Air Force in June, 1988. During his career, he has commanded a fighter squadron and a flying wing. He has served as Commandant College of Flying Training, PAF Academy Asghar Khan, Rislapur. He has also rendered his services as Commandant Air War College Institute, Faisal. Presently, he is serving as Deputy Chief of the Air Staff (Training) at Air Headquarters, Islamabad. He is a recipient of Hilal-i-Imtiaz (Military).








Air Marshal Muhammad Mughees Afzal was commissioned in GD (P) Branch of Pakistan Air Force in December, 1988. During his career, he has commanded a fighter squadron, a flying wing and an operational air base. In his staff appointments, he has served as Director General Security at Air Headquarters, Islamabad and Air Officer Commanding, Western Air Command. Presently, he holds the appointment of Air Officer Commanding, Southern Air Command. He is a recipient of Sitara-i-Imtiaz (Military).


----------



## ZedZeeshan

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 763561


I dont know why but this guy does not look impressive.. feel as if he is visionless and tired, lazy maybe I am wrong..


----------



## Windjammer



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## ghazi52




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## ghazi52

Two Legends in one frame, Founding Fathers of Pakistan Air Force, Air Marshal Asghar Khan and Air Marshal Malik Nur Khan Awan.

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## Primus

Anyone know where I can read about the performance of the PAF during red flag exercises? Preferably red flag 2010?


----------



## ghazi52

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1425777250910232581


----------



## mingle

ghazi52 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1425777250910232581


????


----------



## PakFactor

mingle said:


> ????



I'm asking myself the same question. What's he doing here?

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## mingle

PakFactor said:


> I'm asking myself the same question. What's he doing here?


Japan has C130H around 15 of them could be??


----------



## Riz



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## ghazi52

DGPR (AIR FORCE)
@DGPR_PAF

Happy Independence Day!

3:25 PM · Aug 13, 2021


----------



## ghazi52

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1426431830572552192


----------



## ghazi52

*
PAF OFFICER PROMOTED TO THE RANK OF AIR VICE MARSHAL*

16 August, 2021: The Government of Pakistan has promoted Air Commodore Muhammad Ikram-Ul-Haq Noor to the rank of Air Vice Marshal.

Air Vice Marshal Muhammad Ikram-Ul-Haq Noor was commissioned in A&SD Branch of Pakistan Air Force in February, 1989. 

During his career, he has commanded an Administrative Wing in addition to serving as Director Admin at Air Headquarters, Islamabad. The Air Officer has also rendered his services as Assistant Chief of the Air Staff (Administration). He is a graduate of Command & Staff College, China. In recognition of his meritorious services he has been awarded Sitara-i-Imtiaz (Military).


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## Yasser76

Is it just me ore does anyone else noticed more non GD officers being promoted to senior ranks in PAF these days?


----------



## ghazi52




----------



## ghazi52

PAF PAYS TRIBUTE TO RASHID MINHAS SHAHEED ON HIS 50TH MARTYRDOM ANNIVERSARY.






Pilot Officer Rashid Minhas Shaheed was born on 17 February, 1951. Having a dream of defending the aerial frontiers of the motherland, he got commission on 14 March, 1971 in the 51st GD (P) course.

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## ghazi52

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1428439806372196360

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## nomi007




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## ghazi52




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## Yasser76

ghazi52 said:


> View attachment 771845



How is this related to PAF!?

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## ghazi52

Inna lillahi wa inna lillahi rajioon..
Flight lieutenant Dr Mahnoor Farzand passed away Fighting against Covid last night in CMH Malir..

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## Ali_Baba

Way way too young - must have had some underlying condition ?


----------



## syed_yusuf

Ali_Baba said:


> Way way too young - must have had some underlying condition ?


Not necessarily, new covid traces attack young very brutally specially if they are not vaccinated

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## ghazi52



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## Windjammer



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## khanasifm

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 773532



The trial of fc-20 is this recent one or from early 2000?


----------



## Windjammer

khanasifm said:


> The trial of fc-20 is this recent one or from early 2000?


No it refers to F-20 Tiger shark trials in the 80s when an example was painted in PAF colours and sent to Pakistan for evaluation.

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## Trailer23

Windjammer said:


> No it refers to F-20 Tiger shark trials in the 80s when an example was painted in PAF colours and sent to Pakistan for evaluation.
> 
> View attachment 773552


Was this when the US was attempting to unload the F-4 Phantoms & Tigersharks - pre F-16?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Trailer23 said:


> Was this when the US was attempting to unload the F-4 Phantoms & Tigersharks - pre F-16?


No, the F-20 flew after the PAF ordered the Peace Gate I F-16s. I think Northrop was trying to pitch the F-20 as a lower-cost complement to the F-16. This was around the time when "Project Sabre II" started taking form (a fighter that'd replace the F-6s).

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## GriffinsRule

Windjammer said:


> No it refers to F-20 Tiger shark trials in the 80s when an example was painted in PAF colours and sent to Pakistan for evaluation.
> 
> View attachment 773552


They messed up and used PN colors instead lol


----------



## Avicenna

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> No, the F-20 flew after the PAF ordered the Peace Gate I F-16s. I think Northrop was trying to pitch the F-20 as a lower-cost complement to the F-16. This was around the time when "Project Sabre II" started taking form (a fighter that'd replace the F-6s).



So many what ifs when it comes the the PAF!


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

GriffinsRule said:


> They messed up and used PN colors instead lol


Next forum conspiracy: "PAF sabotaged PN's attempts to build a fighter wing in the 1980s"



Avicenna said:


> So many what ifs when it comes the the PAF!


Yep! The PAF was also checking out the Mirage F-1 around this time. One retired AC told me that the PAF liked the F-1, but wanted the M53 on it. However, the French -- despite actually developing a prototype with that spec in the late-1970s -- weren't willing (at least at a price the PAF could afford).

But seriously, imagine getting the F-1 (with local manufacturing) and using the thaw in ties with Russia to integrate the RD-93 plus French radar + avionics and South African BVR and SOW...all by 1999. The PAF may have been able to pull a Swift Retort-type scene in 1999.

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## khanasifm

Why China’s Latest Jets Are Surpassing Russia’s Top Fighters


Since the consolidation of Communist party rule over mainland China in 1949, China’s military aviation sector has owed a tremendous debt to the Russian Bear. However, according to a new study, the apprentice may have surpassed the master as Chinese jets lead in radar, weapons and stealth technology.




www.forbes.com

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## Windjammer

Trailer23 said:


> Was this when the US was attempting to unload the F-4 Phantoms & Tigersharks - pre F-16?


The Tiger Shark shows ''82'' registration......US was keen for PAF to be the launch customer for the F-20 but PAF was keen on the F-16s....later the Americans even tried to push the downgraded version F-16/79 but PAF stuck to it's guns and only settled for the production F-16 with P&W engines.

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## Trailer23

God Bless General Dynamics for making this bird - something Lockheed Martin has milked out off to the MAX.

Too bad GD couldn't carry on the legacy of the Fighting Falcon.

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## The Eagle

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1432680387449327616

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## ghazi52



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## araz

The Eagle said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1432680387449327616


Another opportunity to train cadets?
A


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## mingle

araz said:


> Another opportunity to train cadets?
> A


They getting new blk72s along V upgardes I love theior F16s desert camo

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## The Eagle

araz said:


> Another opportunity to train cadets?
> A



Nothing clear as of yet. May be cadets in Pakistan since Operation swift Retort has left a prominent mark in history. So, there can be possible exercise as well.

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## GriffinsRule

The Eagle said:


> Nothing clear as of yet. May be cadets in Pakistan since Operation swift Retort has left a prominent mark in history. So, there can be possible exercise as well.


Back channel diplomatic contacts with Israel!!!

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## araz

GriffinsRule said:


> Back channel diplomatic contacts with Israel!!!


Sorry but to what end? Please elaborate.
A


----------



## The Eagle

GriffinsRule said:


> Back channel diplomatic contacts with Israel!!!



In such sense for the sake of argument, UAE might interpret well. Not everything goes around because of Israel please.


----------



## GriffinsRule

araz said:


> Sorry but to what end? Please elaborate.
> A


Oh I thought we were all making wild guesses so I threw one in for the conspiracy theorist

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## ghazi52

*Nigerian ambassador meets Air Chief*






https://nation.com.pk/NewsSource/web-desk
*Web Desk*
7:11 PM | September 02, 2021


Ambassador of Nigeria H.E. Mr. Mohammed Bello Abioye met Air Chief Marshal Zaheer Ahmed Baber Sidhu, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force in his office today.

Matters of professional and mutual interest were discussed during the meeting.

H.E. Mr. Mohammed Bello commended the professionalism of PAF and acknowledged its rising indigenous capacity in the aviation industry.

The Air Chief said that Pakistan and Nigeria had longstanding religious, cultural, and historical bonds which were manifested through strong ties between the Air Forces of the two countries.

The Air Chief highlighted that both the countries enjoy cordial relations and reiterated his resolve to further enhance the existing bilateral cooperation between the two brotherly countries.

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## Signalian



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## ghazi52

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1434093156501426183

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## Path-Finder

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1434534431943970823

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## ghazi52

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1434761746833715206

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## ghazi52



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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

ghazi52 said:


>


Why is Desi Zordon narrating the video?


----------



## ghazi52



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## ghazi52

*Happy Pakistan Air Force Day






*

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## ghazi52

*PAF IS FULLY PREPARED TO DEFEND SOVEREIGNTY AND TERRITORIAL INTEGRITY OF PAKISTAN : AIR CHIEF*

07 September, 2021: PAF observed 07 September as Martyrs’ Day at all PAF Bases throughout the country. The day started with special Du’aa and Quran Khawani for the Shuhada of 1965 & 1971 Wars and those who laid down their lives in action since creation of Pakistan.

Air Chief Marshal Zaheer Ahmed Baber Sidhu, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force was the Chief Guest during a Martyrs’ Day Ceremony held at Air Headquarters, Islamabad. During his address the Air Chief paid tribute to all heroes of Pakistan Air Force who responded to the nation’s call with unparalleled courage and put their lives ahead of others for a cause greater than life. “PAF is alive to the evolving situation in the region and remains fully prepared to defend sovereignty and territorial integrity of Pakistan, said the Air Chief. On this special day, he extended reverence to the generations of Kashmiris who have laid down their lives fighting for freedom. He assured Kashmiri brothers and sisters of resolute commitment and steadfast moral, political and diplomatic support. To pay homage to the martyrs, the Air Chief laid floral wreath at the Martyrs’ Monument and offered “Fateha”. Principal Staff Officers, officers, airmen and PAF civilians attended the ceremony.

Earlier in the day, a wreath laying ceremony was also held at the grave of Pilot Officer Rashid Minhas Shaheed, (Nishan-i-Haider) at Karachi. Air Vice Marshal Zaeem Afzal Air Officer Commanding, Southern Air Command, offered ‘Fateha’ and laid floral wreath at the grave of the Shaheed on behalf of Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force. Similar wreath laying ceremonies were also held at the graves of PAF Martyrs all over the country.

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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52

DGPR (AIR FORCE)

@DGPR_PAF
Message by Air Chief Marshal Zaheer Ahmed Baber Sidhu, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force on death anniversary of Quaid-e-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah. "PAF pays homage to the Father of the Nation who rekindled a hope amongst the oppressed people of the Sub-continent







and welded them into a Nation and led an incessant struggle to secure a separate & independent homeland for them. Quaid-e-Azam envisioned and founded a state wherein the principles of democracy, freedom, equality, tolerance and social justice, shall be fully observed.

He also gave PAF the enduring vision to be SECOND TO NONE. His ideology, vision and principles of Unity, Faith and Discipline are guidlines for us to become a great nation" the CAS said.

3:37 PM · Sep 10, 2021·

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## phrozenflame

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Why is Desi Zordon narrating the video?


----------



## Trailer23

@The Eagle 
Is this what everyone was talking about a few days back?






@araz @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @SQ8 @Akh1112 @GriffinsRule @iLION12345_1 @Signalian @ziaulislam

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## khanasifm

Trailer23 said:


> @The Eagle
> Is this what everyone was talking about a few days back?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @araz @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @SQ8 @Akh1112 @GriffinsRule @iLION12345_1 @Signalian @ziaulislam



Where is the conpmete recording of the whole program ?


----------



## SQ8

Trailer23 said:


> @The Eagle
> Is this what everyone was talking about a few days back?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @araz @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @SQ8 @Akh1112 @GriffinsRule @iLION12345_1 @Signalian @ziaulislam


Should be left to clubhouse.. recording on YouTube isn’t secure regardless of how careful and aware the presenter of OPSEC is. 
there are ways to present ten angles when heard from 2nd or 3rd person sources that leave doubts on those who are well verses on reading between the lines. This video revealed nothing and the Air Marshal is very astute about it, but future sessions should still not be recorded.

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## CriticalThought

SQ8 said:


> Should be left to clubhouse.. recording on YouTube isn’t secure regardless of how careful and aware the presenter of OPSEC is.
> there are ways to present ten angles when heard from 2nd or 3rd person sources that leave doubts on those who are well verses on reading between the lines. This video revealed nothing and the Air Marshal is very astute about it, but future sessions should still not be recorded.



*Ahem* *Ahem* there was no need to speak, TMI already. TMI TMI TMI.


----------



## Trailer23

khanasifm said:


> Where is the conpmete recording of the whole program ?


Sorry, but this is all that was available on the .net - as I stumbled on it while searching for material for a future project.


SQ8 said:


> Should be left to clubhouse.. recording on YouTube isn’t secure regardless of how careful and aware the presenter of OPSEC is.
> ...but future sessions should still not be recorded.


Sorry sir jee. I didn't know it was so confidential, but i'll be careful in future by not posting such material.

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## CriticalThought

Trailer23 said:


> Sorry, but this is all that was available on the .net - as I stumbled on it while searching for material for a future project.
> 
> Sorry sir jee. I didn't know it was so confidential, but i'll be careful in future by not posting such material.



The ex-ACM should NOT be doing an unscripted Q/A anywhere.

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## The Eagle

Trailer23 said:


> Is this what everyone was talking about a few days back?



Yes this is the session. However, J-10C arguments was already concluded. For couple of questions about a very interesting point in discussion and then, here ACM shared his opinion with a meaningful yet very diplomatic reply.


----------



## Ahmet Pasha

Trailer23 said:


> @The Eagle
> Is this what everyone was talking about a few days back?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @araz @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @SQ8 @Akh1112 @GriffinsRule @iLION12345_1 @Signalian @ziaulislam


Link to full video?


----------



## Trailer23

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Link to full video?


Please check the first post on this page ☝ .


----------



## The Eagle

Trailer23 said:


> Please check the first post on this page ☝ .



I never favoured the recordings of such live sessions.

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## khanasifm

Trailer23 said:


> Please check the first post on this page ☝ .



Please share the link j no it sure what is first page ?


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## Trailer23

khanasifm said:


> Please share the link j no it sure what is first page ?


Sir first post on this page is *#9,946 by me (Trailer23)* & in it I clearly mentioned that THAT is all which was available.

I was just randomly searching for videos on YouTube for A-10's and for some reason it popped up on the side.

The individual who posted it only has this version - which is worthless.

I'm sorry I can't be of much help. Apparently its taboo of some kind to record such stuff & upload it on YouTube.

But, if you really want it - I suggest you try & leaving a comment on the individuals YouTube Channel. Maybe he/she might have the complete content.


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## khanasifm

Trailer23 said:


> Sorry, but this is all that was available on the .net - as I stumbled on it while searching for material for a future project.
> 
> Sorry sir jee. I didn't know it was so confidential, but i'll be careful in future by not posting such material.


Ok 👌


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## khanasifm

khanasifm said:


> Ok 👌


What’s confidential it’s on YouTube 😆 
since when internet and YouTube became confidential 🤫


----------



## ghazi52

Future Air field.

First flight lands at newly licensed Juzzak airport, the western most airport in Pakistan, 11 kilometres from the border with Iran. 









PIA ATR TURBOPROP AIRCRAFT TO PERFORM CHARTERED FLIGHTS BETWEEN KARACHI AND JUZZAK FOR THE TRANSPORTATION OF PEOPLE WORKING ON SAINDAK COPPER-GOLD PROJECT.

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## khanasifm

Taftan is pak city on the border

linked via rail and now via air as well but not sure how is this related to thread 🧵 ??





__





Taftan, Balochistan - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org

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## iLION12345_1

khanasifm said:


> Taftan is pak city on the border
> 
> linked via rail and now via air as well but not sure how is this related to thread 🧵 ??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Taftan, Balochistan - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org


Any airfield or airport added to the country is an asset for the PAF in the case of a war.

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## Path-Finder

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1439220093481783302

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## Metal 0-1

So, I wanted to ask that, what happened to guys involved in WildBoarGate?

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## The Eagle

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1441045571490484225


----------



## ghazi52

A delegation led by Major General (Pilot) Muhammad Majeed Mahdi Mahmood, Deputy Commander Iraqi Air Force, called on Air Chief Marshal Zaheer Ahmed Baber Sidhu, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force in his office today. During the meeting, both the dignitaries discussed matters of professional and mutual interest.


----------



## Tally ho

EagleEyes said:


> If you go to PAF Faisal, you will see a junked Mi-24 hind, in the far backyard. I have it in the gallery. Check it out. PA operated them for sometime, but lack of spares leaded them to be unoperatable.


I think the MI24 at Faisal is located at the museum


----------



## The Eagle

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1443226187917103113

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1443226488816513026


----------



## Keysersoze

The Eagle said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1443226187917103113
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1443226488816513026


I don't know if these even constitute news. Air force chief meets loads of people in the same chair and talks are held about generic matters.


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Keysersoze said:


> I don't know if these even constitute news. Air force chief meets loads of people in the same chair and talks are held about generic matters.


He even sits the same way. You could photoshop him between photos at different points and it'd look the same each time.

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## Windjammer

Keysersoze said:


> I don't know if these even constitute news. Air force chief meets loads of people in the same chair and talks are held about generic matters.


Yea but the Japanese Ambassador is calling on the Air chief second time in as many months.


----------



## Keysersoze

Windjammer said:


> Yea but the Japanese Ambassador is calling on the Air chief second time in as many months.


Never underestimate the need for a free lunch lol.

I think meetings of value would be held without a photographer. It is interesting that Japan has lifted its export ban but I think Exporting to Pakistan might be politically (Domestically as well as Internationally) difficult for Japan.


----------



## Windjammer

Keysersoze said:


> Never underestimate the need for a free lunch lol.
> 
> I think meetings of value would be held without a photographer. It is interesting that Japan has lifted its export ban but I think Exporting to Pakistan might be politically (Domestically as well as Internationally) difficult for Japan.


I highly doubt that PAF has Sushi on the menu.
We even get to see images of Pakistani civilian and military leadership visiting ISI HQ for briefings as a mere image or brief footage seldom discloses any classified info.


----------



## Ali_Baba

Ground for the Japanese Airforce to come to Pakistan for military exercises ( or the reverse ) ?


----------



## Raider 21

Ali_Baba said:


> Ground for the Japanese Airforce to come to Pakistan for military exercises ( or the reverse ) ?


The reverse might be a good start

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## Windjammer

*3 PAF OFFICERS PROMOTED TO THE RANK OF AIR MARSHAL*

30 September, 2021: The Government of Pakistan has promoted 03 PAF Air officers to the rank of Air Marshal. The promoted Air Officers include Air Marshal Chaudhary Ahsan Rafiq, Air Marshal Waqas Ahmed Sulehri and Air Marshal Ahmad Hassan.
Air Marshal Chaudhary Ahsan Rafiq was commissioned in GD (P) Branch of Pakistan Air Force in June, 1989. During his career, he has commanded JF-17 Test & Evaluation Squadron, an Operational Flying Wing and an Operational Air Base. He has also served as Commander Air Force Strategic Command at Air Headquarters, Islamabad. He is a graduate of National Defence University. Presently, he is serving as Chief Project Director JF-17 at Air Headquarters, Islamabad. He is a recipient of Sitara-i-Imtiaz (Military).
Air Marshal Waqas Ahmed Sulehri was commissioned in GD (P) Branch of Pakistan Air Force in June, 1989. During his career, he has commanded a Fighter Squadron, a Flying Wing and an Operational Air Base. He has served as Director General (Projects) at Air Headquarters, Islamabad. He has also performed his duties as Air Attaché in Washington DC, USA. He is a graduate of National Defence University. Presently, he is serving as Deputy Chief of the Air Staff (Operations) at Air Headquarters, Islamabad. He is a recipient of Sitara-i-Imtiaz (Military).
Air Marshal Ahmad Hassan was commissioned in Engineering Branch of Pakistan Air Force in June, 1989. During his career, he has commanded an Engineering Wing and served as Assistant Chief of the Air Staff (Aircraft Engineering) at Air Headquarters, Islamabad. He has also served as Managing Director Aircraft Rebuild Factory, Kamra. He is a graduate of National Defence University. Presently, he is serving as Deputy Chief of the Air Staff (Engineering) at Air Headquarters, Islamabad. He is a recipient of Hilal-i-Imtiaz (Military).

@SQ8

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## SQ8

Windjammer said:


> *3 PAF OFFICERS PROMOTED TO THE RANK OF AIR MARSHAL*
> 
> 30 September, 2021: The Government of Pakistan has promoted 03 PAF Air officers to the rank of Air Marshal. The promoted Air Officers include Air Marshal Chaudhary Ahsan Rafiq, Air Marshal Waqas Ahmed Sulehri and Air Marshal Ahmad Hassan.
> Air Marshal Chaudhary Ahsan Rafiq was commissioned in GD (P) Branch of Pakistan Air Force in June, 1989. During his career, he has commanded JF-17 Test & Evaluation Squadron, an Operational Flying Wing and an Operational Air Base. He has also served as Commander Air Force Strategic Command at Air Headquarters, Islamabad. He is a graduate of National Defence University. Presently, he is serving as Chief Project Director JF-17 at Air Headquarters, Islamabad. He is a recipient of Sitara-i-Imtiaz (Military).
> Air Marshal Waqas Ahmed Sulehri was commissioned in GD (P) Branch of Pakistan Air Force in June, 1989. During his career, he has commanded a Fighter Squadron, a Flying Wing and an Operational Air Base. He has served as Director General (Projects) at Air Headquarters, Islamabad. He has also performed his duties as Air Attaché in Washington DC, USA. He is a graduate of National Defence University. Presently, he is serving as Deputy Chief of the Air Staff (Operations) at Air Headquarters, Islamabad. He is a recipient of Sitara-i-Imtiaz (Military).
> Air Marshal Ahmad Hassan was commissioned in Engineering Branch of Pakistan Air Force in June, 1989. During his career, he has commanded an Engineering Wing and served as Assistant Chief of the Air Staff (Aircraft Engineering) at Air Headquarters, Islamabad. He has also served as Managing Director Aircraft Rebuild Factory, Kamra. He is a graduate of National Defence University. Presently, he is serving as Deputy Chief of the Air Staff (Engineering) at Air Headquarters, Islamabad. He is a recipient of Hilal-i-Imtiaz (Military).
> 
> @SQ8
> View attachment 781053
> 
> View attachment 781054
> 
> 
> View attachment 781055


Lets see if he goes to the very top


----------



## CriticalThought

SQ8 said:


> Lets see if he goes to the very top



Thank you for giving us another 'Three Prisoners Problem'.





__





Three Prisoners problem - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Windjammer

SQ8 said:


> Lets see if he goes to the very top


Would be ideal to have young blood leading for once but i have a feeling that after his stint in Washington, Waqas Sulheri maybe the preferred choice.


----------



## Raider 21

Windjammer said:


> Would be ideal to have young blood leading for once but i have a feeling that after his stint in Washington, Waqas Sulheri maybe the preferred choice.


His DCAS role as Ops would have him in favour, an air attache role isn't one of the leading factors

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## SQ8

Windjammer said:


> Would be ideal to have young blood leading for once but i have a feeling that after his stint in Washington, Waqas Sulheri maybe the preferred choice.


Still have two years to go - he was instrumental with the JF so would be a good fit for pushing AZM through. But we also argue on an operations man considering the generally unstable situation in the east.

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## CriticalThought

SQ8 said:


> Still have two years to go - he was instrumental with the JF so would be a good fit for pushing AZM through. But we also argue on an operations man considering the generally unstable situation in the east.



JF stalwarts have usually been limited to AVM/AM positions, no? And that's because that is where they can contribute best. An ACM has a lot more on his plate than JF.

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## SQ8

CriticalThought said:


> JF stalwarts have usually been limited to AVM/AM positions, no? And that's because that is where they can contribute best. An ACM has a lot more on his plate than JF.


its not about JF but his experience with aerospace projects

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## TsAr

Raider 21 said:


> His DCAS role as Ops would have him in favour, an air attache role isn't one of the leading factors


Plus more then 2 years to go, a lot can happen during that time.

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## Talon

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1444589927111536645

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## Windjammer

Hodor said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1444589927111536645


From the patch, it appears PAF F-16 will also participate.

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## khanasifm

Hodor said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1444589927111536645



time to sync the old type 21s 😂


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## Windjammer

Air Marshal Nur Khan inside the cockpit of Canadair CL-13B Sabre Mk.6 , which arrived via Iran from Germany @ 1966.

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## ghazi52

GRADUATION CEREMONY HELD AT PAF ACADEMY, ASGHAR KHAN, RISALPUR






05 October, 2021:The Graduation Ceremony of 126th Combat Support, 42nd BLPC, 2nd ADSSC and 23rd (Balochistan Batch) A&SD Courses was held at PAF Academy, Asghar Khan today. Air Marshal Zulfiquar Ahmad Qureshi, HI (M), Deputy Chief of the Air Staff (Training) was the Chief Guest of the Ceremony. On his arrival at the Academy, he was received by Air Vice Marshal Qaiser Janjua, SI (M), Air Officer Commanding, PAF Academy Asghar Khan.

A total of 75 cadets graduated at the occasion. The Chief Guest awarded branch insignias to the graduating cadets and trophies to the distinction holders. Air Marshal Asghar Khan Trophy for the best performance in 126th Combat Support Course was awarded to Aviation Cadet Syed Ali Hassan Shah. Trophy for overall best performance in 42nd BLPC Course was won by Aviation Cadet Abdur Rehman. Chief of the Air Staff Trophy for the best performance in 2nd ADSSC was clinched by Aviation Cadet Muhammad Faisal Shahzad.

While addressing the audience, the Chief Guest said, “Pakistan has a distinguished place amongst the comity of the Nations and we shall remain focused on constructive engagement with important countries of the world based on the principle of mutual respect and prosperity”. Addressing the cadets, the Chief Guest said that "they were a part of the elite Pakistan Air Force where our esteemed predecessors had left behind a glorious legacy of heroism, indomitable will, spirit of sacrifice, resolute courage and unshakable faith. Now, it is your prime obligation to uphold these valued customs and traditions." He further urged upon them to merge sound professionalism with traits of good leadership to rise for their country and come up to the trust reposed in them by the nation and Pakistan Air Force.

The Ceremony was witnessed by high-ranking Military, Civil Officials and a large number of guests of graduating cadets.

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## Muhammad Omar

He's not a credible guy please avoid his tweets he usually reports from 5th floor of Serena Hotel Kabul

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## Zarvan

Muhammad Omar said:


> He's not a credible guy please avoid his tweets he usually reports from 5th floor of Serena Hotel Kabul


He often takes these kind of news from Pakistani media or twitter accounts.


----------



## Muhammad Omar

Zarvan said:


> He often takes these kind of news from Pakistani media or twitter accounts.



No such news in media anywhere


----------



## ghazi52

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1446434027825778732


----------



## ghazi52

Interesting. Gun holster on a PAF pilot. Taken during the terrorism operation days.
Probably carry Glock 17s or 19s.

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## Thorough Pro

It's not a new thing, every pilot carries a side arm



ghazi52 said:


> Interesting. Gun holster on a PAF pilot. Taken during the terrorism operation days.
> Probably carry Glock 17s or 19s.
> 
> View attachment 783275
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 783276


----------



## Proud 2 Be a Pakistani

Turkish Air Force to Participate in ACES MEET 2021 Exercise in Pakistan

Source;

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1447830624140730368

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## khanasifm

Nandan came full gsh 23 gun ammo , all have been converted into souvenirs and distributed across …

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## Proud 2 Be a Pakistani

ACES Meet 2021

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## Yasser76

I see the Turks have arrived with ACMI pods.....


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## Talon

Proud 2 Be a Pakistani said:


> ACES Meet 2021
> View attachment 785784


This picture is from Anatolian Eagle..

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## ghazi52

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1450153603218374662

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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52



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## Windjammer

PAF ACM (Late) Farooq Feroze Khan getting ready for 23rd March fly past.

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## ghazi52



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## khanasifm



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## ghazi52



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## iLION12345_1

Proud 2 Be a Pakistani said:


> ACES Meet 2021
> View attachment 785784


Not ACES. TuAF sent F-16Ds for that.


----------



## ghazi52

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1453305458031304706

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## Ali_Baba

ghazi52 said:


> View attachment 787788



So - technically speaking - the RAF has just conducted exercises with the JF17 by proxy of Turkish Airforce  ..

And if Argentina does purchase the FC-1 then that is knowledge gained for the RAF!

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## ghazi52



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## Ahmet Pasha

ghazi52 said:


> View attachment 786108


I'd love to buy a 70 series LC in US *sigh*


----------



## Jinn Baba

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1454526161539801094

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## Jaansher



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## ghazi52

DGPR (AIR FORCE)
@DGPR_PAF

No 14 Air Superiority Squadron – famously known as “Tail Choppers”, is the first Fighter Bomber Squadron of PAF raised after independence. Established on 01 November, 1948 in Peshawar; it remains one of the oldest and highly decorated Squadrons of Pakistan Air Force.






1965 and 1971 wars. The Squadron has earned two battle honours - one each during 1965 & 1971 wars. Its war heroics constitute an unforgettable part of PAF history. With the legacy of legendary Sqn Ldr Sarfraz Rafiqui, Sqn Ldr Shabbir and Air Cdre Sajjad Haider,






present day No 14 Sqn (equipped with the pride of the nation “JF-17 Thunder” aircraft) continues to maintain the cutting edge capability to chop off the tails of any aggressor who would dare to challenge the sovereignty of the motherland.

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## Nomad40

Ali_Baba said:


> So - technically speaking - the RAF has just conducted exercises with the JF17 by proxy of Turkish Airforce  ..
> 
> And if Argentina does purchase the FC-1 then that is knowledge gained for the RAF!


Short answer no but yes
Long answer yes but no


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## Talon



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## Windjammer

Boss with a model of J-10C prominently visible.

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## Talon

Windjammer said:


> Boss with a model of J-10C prominently visible.
> 
> View attachment 791735


With Bandits tail markings if I am not wrong..


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## Windjammer

Hodor said:


> With Bandits tail markings if I am not wrong..

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## ghazi52

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1458081646482186249

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## ghazi52

09 November, 2021:
Ambassador of Federal Republic of Somalia H.E. Mrs Khadija Mohamed Al Makhzoumi called on Air Chief Marshal Zaheer Ahmed Baber Sidhu, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force in his office today.

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## The Eagle

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 791748


 Apparently, the same plaque given the load as much as one can try to identify.

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## Chak Bamu

ghazi52 said:


> 09 November, 2021:
> Ambassador of Federal Republic of Somalia H.E. Mrs Khadija Mohamed Al Makhzoumi called on Air Chief Marshal Zaheer Ahmed Baber Sidhu, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force in his office today.
> 
> 
> View attachment 791756


Rumors of Somalia expressing interest in JF-17 starting in 3...2...1...

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## Raider 21

Windjammer said:


> Boss with a model of J-10C prominently visible.
> 
> View attachment 791735


Means nothing significant until fully finalised. There were F-20 and even Viggen models in PAF colours. But this picture certainly has some fun to it particularly with the J-10 rumours.


Chak Bamu said:


> Rumors of Somalia expressing interest in JF-17 starting in 3...2...1...







They are paired pretty well on the global level haha.









Global Passport Power Rank 2022 | Passport Index 2022


Explore the interactive global ranking of the world's passports in real-time. Which passport is ranked 1st? Which is last? Find out on Passport Index!




www.passportindex.org





Above was meant on a lighter note.

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## Windjammer

Raider 21 said:


> Means nothing significant until fully finalised. There were F-20 and even Viggen models in PAF colours. But this picture certainly has some fun to it particularly with the J-10 rumours.


Not sure about Viggen but do recall seeing the model of a Draken displayed in the old AHQ.
However not sure if like the J-10 they supported PAF Colours.

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## araz

Chak Bamu said:


> Rumors of Somalia expressing interest in JF-17 starting in 3...2...1...


BREAKING NEWS!!!!! Somalia is buying 12 JFTS.😆😅🤣
A

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## Talon

Windjammer said:


> Not sure about Viggen but do recall seeing the model of a Draken displayed in the old AHQ.
> However not sure if like the J-10 they supported PAF Colours.


Even a model doesn't confirm anything ( not saying J10 news is all rumor ). I am sure you have seen F-20 *flying *in PAF colors and still they never went operational with us.

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## ghazi52

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1458462593601785859

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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52



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## monitor

Air Force officers from #Pakistan

 and #India

’s Air Forces met at #DubaiAirshow2021 in a cordial, professional manner. The PAF delegation was shown the HAL Tejas, a light fighter aircraft.

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## untitled

Hodor said:


> Even a model doesn't confirm anything ( not saying J10 news is all rumor ). I am sure you have seen F-20 *flying *in PAF colors and still they never went operational with us.


Will the J-10 be renamed as FC-20 as originally planned?


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## ghazi52

At #DubaiAirshow2021

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## ghazi52

Keeping the tradition alive ..

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## ghazi52

Nice..

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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52



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## araz

ghazi52 said:


> View attachment 792194


I have not seen a single picture of this man smiling!!!!!! Always the same expressionless face.
A

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## CombatSurgeon

araz said:


> I have not seen a single picture of this man smiling!!!!!! Always the same expressionless face.
> A


 Sometimes, I think his same pic is photoshopped for all occasions!

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## ghazi52

Pilot Officer Obaidullah of PAF has graduated from Royal Airforce College, London with "Cranwell Medal". For his best performance during training at PAF Academy, he was selected to undergo training Royal Airforce College, London.

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## ghazi52

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1462761461189599233

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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52



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## Windjammer



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## ghazi52



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## Windjammer

A Young A/C (R) Sattar Alvi (L) with squadron mates from CCS.

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## blinder

Windjammer said:


> A Young A/C (R) Sattar Alvi (L) with squadron mates from CCS.
> 
> View attachment 800703


Any (approximate) date this photo was taken?


----------



## The Eagle

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1471071502871187458

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## shujaullahkhan

blinder said:


> Any (approximate) date this photo was taken?


Between 1977 and 1979.

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## _NOBODY_

araz said:


> I have not seen a single picture of this man smiling!!!!!! Always the same expressionless face.
> A


Chiefs should be mean looking. I have rarely seen a picture of Raheel Sharif in which he is smiling.

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## haroonn

ghazi52 said:


> The Pakistan Air Force has raised a new squadron, namely No. 50 ‘Saf Shikan’ tactical attack squadron, and allocated all Mirages in the No. 15 ‘Cobras’ squadron to this new squadron.
> The now empty No. 15 mutirole squadron is expected to receive J-10C fighters in first quarter 2022.


If this is true, then why dont they assign J-10s to this new squadron and leave No. 15 as is? Just curious about the logic behind this.


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## The Eagle

Please don't share unsubstantiated and non credible things in official Thread.


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## SQ8

_NOBODY_ said:


> Chiefs should be mean looking. I have rarely seen a picture of Raheel Sharif in which he is smiling.


Ive always seen Gen Sam Manekshaw smiling in pictures but he routed the mean looking Yahya and the rest of his mean looking generals like spanking a kid. Intelligent, confident, adaptable and assertive are the qualities needed. If those come in a 5ft 2 fugly package I prefer than over the Gora chitta 6fr real estate dealer sellouts.

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## SaadH

SQ8 said:


> Ive always seen Gen Sam Manekshaw smiling in pictures but he routed the mean looking Yahya and the rest of his mean looking generals like spanking a kid. Intelligent, confident, adaptable and assertive are the qualities needed. If those come in a 5ft 2 fugly package I prefer than over the Gora chitta 6fr real estate dealer sellouts.


First of all Manekshaw would have routed even Rommel, Manstein, Zhukov, Clausewitz, Napoleon, Hannibal and Caesar if all of them came together to fight against him with a 9 to 1 ratio in men, 10 to 1 in the air, with a hostile population and backed by paramilitary/militant forces of mukti bhani and 1000 miles away from the homebase with supplies cutoff.

Secondly Manekshaw was a parsi, just as much of an aryan as Niazi and Yahya...

If Indians are proud of this pathetic accomplishment let them be, but please don't perpetuate this idiotic myth of the invincibility and superior tactics and courage of Indian forces in the East..

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## syed_yusuf

SaadH said:


> First of all Manekshaw would have routed even Rommel, Manstein, Zhukov, Clausewitz, Napoleon, Hannibal and Caesar if all of them came together to fight against him with a 9 to 1 ratio in men, 10 to 1 in the air, with a hostile population and backed by paramilitary/militant forces of mukti bhani and 1000 miles away from the homebase with supplies cutoff.
> 
> Secondly Manekshaw was a parsi, just as much of an aryan as Niazi and Yahya...
> 
> If Indians are proud of this pathetic accomplishment let them be, but please don't perpetuate this idiotic myth of the invincibility and superior tactics and courage of Indian forces in the East..


You are absolutely right on all accounts however that is called planning in all phases to achieve a victory. What was Pakistan doing when India was planting political, ethnic, militant attack on east Pakistan. And what was Pakistan was doing when we see Bharat stocking up forces on the east with near 10:1 ratio in all areas supported by a million mukti bhani and a mostly agitated local population. I called it a state failure and enemy took full advantage of it.... Pakistan failed on all accounts and India gain victory .. plain and simple . It is very disturbing to know that our own brothers went against us and we can't keep them on path of unity ... A grave failure on Bengali intellect and big blunder on non Bengali side of then Pakistan

Very sad indeed

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## SQ8

SaadH said:


> First of all Manekshaw would have routed even Rommel, Manstein, Zhukov, Clausewitz, Napoleon, Hannibal and Caesar if all of them came together to fight against him with a 9 to 1 ratio in men, 10 to 1 in the air, with a hostile population and backed by paramilitary/militant forces of mukti bhani and 1000 miles away from the homebase with supplies cutoff.
> 
> Secondly Manekshaw was a parsi, just as much of an aryan as Niazi and Yahya...
> 
> If Indians are proud of this pathetic accomplishment let them be, but please don't perpetuate this idiotic myth of the invincibility and superior tactics and courage of Indian forces in the East..


“Thus it is that in war the victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won, whereas he who is destined to defeat first fights and afterwards looks for victory.”
Sun Tzu

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## khanasifm

Fan art ? ?

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## The Eagle

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1472926212897050636

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1472926724862230535

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## HRK

Falgrine said:


> @The Eagle, ............ Alhamdolillah


wonderful but would advice to delete your post from open forum ....

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## Windjammer

Sherdils Over Karachi.

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## ghazi52



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## blinder

khanasifm said:


> Fan art ? ?
> View attachment 802093


I thought that the Saab 2000AEW are operated by 3(AEW)sq?


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## CombatSurgeon

blinder said:


> I thought that the Saab 2000AEW are operated by 3(AEW)sq?
> View attachment 803212


New squadron. Saab's second unit. At Bholari.

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## Bratva

CombatSurgeon said:


> New squadron. Saab's second unit. At Bholari.



You mean the additional Erieyes PAF purchased?


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## CombatSurgeon

Bratva said:


> You mean the additional Erieyes PAF purchased?


Yes.

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## ghazi52

Air Chief Marshal Zaheer Ahmed Baber Sidhu, pays tribute to the founder of Pakistan Quaid-e-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah on the his Birthday anniversary .

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## ghazi52

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1474463971616956419

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## HAIDER



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## Talon

CCS Dragons FPV | Chasing CCS JF-17 with FPV drone #Thunders © AMMAR KHAN | By ACE of PAF | Facebook


43K views, 1.2K likes, 372 loves, 41 comments, 334 shares, Facebook Watch Videos from ACE of PAF: Chasing CCS JF-17 with FPV drone #Thunders © AMMAR KHAN




fb.watch

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## Bilal.

khanasifm said:


> Fan art ? ?
> View attachment 802093


Seems to be Lord of the rings inspired.


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## Windjammer

Not sure if it's still in use but this was the Railway Crossing the main runway of Peshawar Air Port/ Airbase.

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## CombatSurgeon

Windjammer said:


> Not sure if it's still in use but this was the Railway Crossing the main runway of Peshawar Air Port/ Airbase.
> 
> View attachment 805334


 Not in use anymore, though once it was the site of a rare fighter-on-train accident! It was one of a kind sort of crash. A jet figher ramming into a train.

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## untitled

CombatSurgeon said:


> A jet figher ramming into a train.


All fighters stationed there should have had TCAS (train collision and avoidance) installed

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## Windjammer

CombatSurgeon said:


> Not in use anymore, though once it was the site of a rare fighter-on-train accident! It was one of a kind sort of crash. A jet figher ramming into a train.


Yes that was indeed one of its kind but the main hazard was when pilots were coming in to land, they had strict instructions to avoid touching down on the tracks after an F-6 burst its tyres so touch down was always either before or after the crossing patch.

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## Raider 21

Windjammer said:


> Not sure if it's still in use but this was the Railway Crossing the main runway of Peshawar Air Port/ Airbase.
> 
> View attachment 805334


Not in use


CombatSurgeon said:


> Not in use anymore, though once it was the site of a rare fighter-on-train accident! It was one of a kind sort of crash. A jet figher ramming into a train.


It was the instructor pilot's fault that day.

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## Raider 21

Windjammer said:


> Yes that was indeed one of its kind but the main hazard was when pilots were coming in to land, they had strict instructions to avoid touching down on the tracks after an F-6 burst its tyres so touch down was always either before or after the crossing patch.


Even triggered an F-6 to fire a Sidewinder when it went over it on the ground.

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## GriffinsRule

Raider 21 said:


> Even triggered an F-6 to fire a Sidewinder when it went over it on the ground.


That I had not heard before.


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## AeroEngineer

GriffinsRule said:


> That I had not heard before.


This happened in 80s to Sir Anwaar Hussain (I don’t know his rank at retirement, must be G/C or A/C). He has narrated the details quite nicely on his Facebook page.




__ https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=10155790092380561&id=666700560

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## Raider 21

AeroEngineer said:


> This happened in 80s to Sir Anwaar Hussain (I don’t know his rank at retirement, must be G/C or A/C). He has narrated the details quite nicely on his Facebook page.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=10155790092380561&id=666700560


He retired as a Wing Commander. Please next time ask for his permission before posting his content on a forum.


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## GriffinsRule

Raider 21 said:


> He retired as a Wing Commander. Please next time ask for his permission before posting his content on a forum.


If the gent posted it on a public profile on FB I don't see the need for permission anymore. It's akin to asking an author permission when posting a link to an article

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## Reichmarshal

i dont see the purpose of the railway line now as the tracks on the sides seem to have been removed from the pic above.

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## The Eagle

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1478709319659102208

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## ghazi52

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1478652028578668550

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## ghazi52



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## The Eagle

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1479075987015012359

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## ghazi52

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1479054664620331010

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## Windjammer

An F-7PG of the Pakistan Air Force, surely a unique example of a soviet designed fighter, improved upon and built by Chinese, carrying American AIM-9L AAMs and Hijara anti-armour cluster bombs manufactured in Pakistan.
Credit: HFK

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## ghazi52




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## Yasser76

Windjammer said:


> An F-7PG of the Pakistan Air Force, surely a unique example of a soviet designed fighter, improved upon and built by Chinese, carrying American AIM-9L AAMs and Hijara anti-armour cluster bombs manufactured in Pakistan.
> Credit: HFK
> 
> View attachment 807403



UK ejection seats and Italian radar too!

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## Windjammer

Mianwali was once considered the biggest Chinese equipment Air Base outside China.

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## Windjammer

New Khan Goods Transport Pilot.

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## ghazi52

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1481600458573725696

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## ghazi52

*
NVESTITURE CEREMONY HELD AT AIR HEADQUARTERS*

13 January, 2022: Non Operational Military awards were conferred upon Officers, JCOs, Airmen and Civilians of Pakistan Air Force in recognition of their distinguished services during an Investiture Ceremony held at Air Headquarters, Islamabad today. 
Air Marshal Syed Noman Ali, Vice Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force was the Chief Guest at the occasion

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## Windjammer

New gallery added to PAF Museum, displaying aircraft engines that have been or still under PAF use.






@SQ8 @The Eagle @Hodor @HRK @Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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## The Eagle

Windjammer said:


> New gallery added to PAF Museum, displaying aircraft engines that have been or still under PAF use.
> 
> View attachment 808396
> 
> 
> @SQ8 @The Eagle @Hodor @HRK @Bilal Khan (Quwa)



Why no watermarks everywhere? Fill it already

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## SQ8

Windjammer said:


> New gallery added to PAF Museum, displaying aircraft engines that have been or still under PAF use.
> 
> View attachment 808396
> 
> 
> @SQ8 @The Eagle @Hodor @HRK @Bilal Khan (Quwa)


Wright flyer at the back too

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## Windjammer

SQ8 said:


> Wright flyer at the back too


I had a very close look at the Concorde specially it's landing gear and the associated mechanism.....and it's enough for one to understand why mankind is regarded as Ashraf-ul-Makhlookat.....and then these engines are simply another level.


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## Windjammer

Niner through it's history.

Art Work by Fasl E Firaq

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## GriffinsRule

I have only ever seen one picture of the squadron with the Mirage. Are there anymore people can share?


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## ghazi52



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## mingle

ghazi52 said:


> View attachment 809889


L159


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## araz

mingle said:


> L159


Doubt it. PAF has put its faith in simulators and block B for basic conversion. 
A

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## SQ8

araz said:


> Doubt it. PAF has put its faith in simulators and block B for basic conversion.
> A


Everything from Mi-17 overhauls to EW systems is up with them. But unfortunately the first reaction people have is “Koi jahaaz aaraha hai”

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## mingle

araz said:


> Doubt it. PAF has put its faith in simulators and block B for basic conversion.
> A


Czech Republic has nothing to offer except trainer jets along small arms which PAF doesn't need

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## Windjammer

Tyres smoke gently as a PAF F-7PG armed with Sidewinder Missiles and Hijara anti-armour cluster munitions touches down at it's Southern Home Base. 
CREDITS : HFK

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## ghazi52

No 9 Multi-Role Sqn "Griffins", one of the oldest Sqns of PAF was established on 13 Nov, 1943. Pakistan’s Def Minister Mir Ali Ahmed Khan Talpur visited No 9 Squadron on 25 Jan, 1979 to award the colour to the Sqn. for its meritorious services in war and peace. 

The Sqn earned 3 gallantry awards & 3 kills during 1965 war. Whereas in the 1971 war, the Sqn bagged 2 gallantry awards after being credited for 07 kills against IAF. Besides this, the Sqn is also credited with shooting down of 02 Russian aircraft during the Afghan War. The Sqn crest depicts Griffin - a mythical creature with an eagle's head and wings and a lion's body signifying immeasurable strength, aggressiveness and vigilance.

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## ghazi52



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## Zarvan

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1486729842942902275

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## ghazi52

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1486729028362899459

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## araz

ghazi52 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1486729028362899459


First time I have seen our Air chief moving. Normally he is very statuesque. I hope he is much better administrator and Strategist than what he appears to be.
A

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## Abid123

"the Government to modernize PAF as a Next Generation Air Force. He duly acknowledged PAF's role in providing an impregnable defence of the country while living up to the Quaid's vision of being an Air Force *Second to None.*"

What exactly is being said here? No more 4th generation aircraft. The PAF would need a sizeable 5th generation fleet in the 2030s. It should number around 100....


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## Mohsin A

ghazi52 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1486729028362899459



Anyone notice the model of the J-10C next to ACM?


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## mingle

Zarvan said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1486729842942902275


PM visit to China



Abid123 said:


> "the Government to modernize PAF as a Next Generation Air Force. He duly acknowledged PAF's role in providing an impregnable defence of the country while living up to the Quaid's vision of being an Air Force *Second to None.*"
> 
> What exactly is being said here? No more 4th generation aircraft. The PAF would need a sizeable 5th generation fleet in the 2030s. It should number around 100....


J20 is on offer to PAF no restrictions by China Upto PAF what they after or theior way farward


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## The Eagle

Zarvan said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1486729842942902275



Seems like preparations before PM's visit to China. COAS met as well and so all other Chiefs of Services. This is how the visit has to be fruitful from all aspects like Military to Economy to Diplomacy.



Abid123 said:


> "the Government to modernize PAF as a Next Generation Air Force. He duly acknowledged PAF's role in providing an impregnable defence of the country while living up to the Quaid's vision of being an Air Force *Second to None.*"
> 
> What exactly is being said here? No more 4th generation aircraft. The PAF would need a sizeable 5th generation fleet in the 2030s. It should number around 100....



Not the no more but progress to be made in regard to future/decade to come. You start today and so you can achieve goals per targeted time line. It is said the ground work is already done and much of study/cooperation/MOUs are there being signed with friendly/brotherly country. The next step is to pave way with practical & on ground activity to make it reality.

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## farooqbhai007

mingle said:


> Czech Republic has nothing to offer except trainer jets along small arms which PAF doesn't need


1. Czech republic has a lot to offer , TATRA Trucks , Radars etc.
Additionally one shouldn't forget PAF's VERA Passive radar spare parts and future EW related purchases from the same company that made VERA.
2. PAF has a active program for a LIFT aircraft , i.e a advanced jet trainer for which JL10 and M346 were also competing.

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## ghazi52

DGPR (AIR FORCE)

@DGPR_PAF

Remembering the world record set by PAF “Falcons”. On February 2, 1958, a formation of 16 PAF F-86 Sabre aircraft performed a loop for the first time during an air display at Masroor Air Base, Karachi. Wing commander Zafar Masud led his team of pilots to this remarkable feat and thus set a world record and received international acclaim. British aviation magazine “The Aeroplane” praised the performance in its issue on February 14, 1958. 

It was a proud moment for the Pakistan Air Force as well as the aviation community of Pakistan as a whole.

Pakistan Air Force applauds Masud and his team for setting this world record, which brought tremendous honor to Pakistan and the PAF.

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## ghazi52

DGPR (AIR FORCE)

@DGPR_PAF

President Iskander Mirza (Pakistan), Commanders-in-Chief of Iran, Iraq and Turkey, ambassadors of various countries, Pakistani Federal Cabinet Ministers, civil and military elite, and other notable individuals attended the show. At approximately 9:30 am, 16 F-86 Sabres, led by the renowned pilot Zafar Masud, flew in formation and performed a precise diamond-shaped loop. The team that performed this remarkable feat was known as “Falcons”. It was indeed a perfectly accomplished feat of flying. The pilots, who had been preparing for weeks together,thus set a world record and received international acclaim. British aviation magazine “The Aeroplane” praised the performance in its issue on February 14, 1958. It was a proud moment for the Pakistan Air Force as well as the aviation community of Pakistan as a whole.

5:53 AM · Feb 2, 2022·

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## Tomcats

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1488913716041195523

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## Bleek

mingle said:


> J20 is on offer to PAF no restrictions by China Upto PAF what they after or theior way farward


Source?


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## mingle

Bleek said:


> Source?


Ex ACM

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## ghazi52

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1489298637033291776

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## blain2

ghazi52 said:


> View attachment 812769
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 812770
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DGPR (AIR FORCE)
> @DGPR_PAF
> 
> President Iskander Mirza (Pakistan), Commanders-in-Chief of Iran, Iraq and Turkey, ambassadors of various countries, Pakistani Federal Cabinet Ministers, civil and military elite, and other notable individuals attended the show. At approximately 9:30 am, 16 F-86 Sabres, led by the renowned pilot Zafar Masud, flew in formation and performed a precise diamond-shaped loop. The team that performed this remarkable feat was known as “Falcons”. It was indeed a perfectly accomplished feat of flying. The pilots, who had been preparing for weeks together,thus set a world record and received international acclaim. British aviation magazine “The Aeroplane” praised the performance in its issue on February 14, 1958. It was a proud moment for the Pakistan Air Force as well as the aviation community of Pakistan as a whole.
> 
> 5:53 AM · Feb 2, 2022·


Good one down the memory lane. My maternal uncle, Sqn Ldr S M Ahmed, flew in this formation when he was at FIS as an instructor.

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## ghazi52



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## CombatSurgeon

blain2 said:


> Good one down the memory lane. My maternal uncle, Sqn Ldr S M Ahmed, flew in this formation when he was at FIS as an instructor.


 Wow! I have deep respect for W/C Ahmed. Despite being a SOO, he took to the skies and tried his best to fend off the raid over Dhaka. That's simply beyond the call of duty. You must be very proud of him. His eventual shootdown and disappearance at the hands of Mukti Bahini is another dark tale. I pray Allah accept his martyrdom and bless him in the afterlife.

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## Pakistan Ka Beta

PAF Museum Karachi | 4K HD Documentary | Discover Pakistan TV​
The great history of Pakistan’s Airforce has glorious and most memorable incidences. In order to preserve the history of the Pakistan Air Force, Pakistan Airforce Museum is made near Shahrah e Faisal Karsaz flyover. The walls of the museum have different posters and photographs that display the different eras of the Pakistan Airforce. Different planes and jets can be witnessed while entering the museum. Martyrdom wall has the pictures of all martyrs are put up as medals of martyrs’ dedication and tribute, services for the motherland protecting airways of country.








*#Support Discover Pakistan TV .*

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## ghazi52

PAF base Faisal....

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## ghazi52

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1490939239978385412

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## ghazi52

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1491079545252098052

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## ghazi52

Mod edit: Totally uncalled for

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## GumNaam

ghazi52 said:


> Once again, we fail to see smile on his face with same positioning of the legs.
> 
> View attachment 813991


it's not a smiling contest.

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## The Eagle

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1491387819423838209

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1491387968254541826

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## Raja Porus

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1492059150594953216

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## ghazi52



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## Windjammer

*Ability Vs Capability.

There's been much debates and claims regarding how twin engine jets are more reliable than single engine ones or a certain aircraft boasts of so many hard points compared to others with fewer ones.
Well, i guess it also boils down to ability and capability. Here we have the A-5 Fantan, retired from the PAF service almost a decade earlier, it had twin engines and Ten hardpoints compared to say the Mirage 3 or 5....both are single engine and have only 5 hardpoints. Yet the Mirage which entered into PAF service a decade before the A-5 arrived, still continues to serve in it's role.




*

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## Ali_Baba

Windjammer said:


> *Ability Vs Capability.
> 
> There's been much debates and claims regarding how twin engine jets are more reliable than single engine ones or a certain aircraft boasts of so many hard points compared to others with fewer ones.
> Well, i guess it also boils down to ability and capability. Here we have the A-5 Fantan, retired from the PAF service almost a decade earlier, it had twin engines and Ten hardpoints compared to say the Mirage 3 or 5....both are single engine and have only 5 hardpoints. Yet the Mirage which entered into PAF service a decade before the A-5 arrived, still continues to serve in it's role.
> 
> View attachment 814879
> *



Didn't these things needed their airframes/engines inspected/overhauled every 200-300 hrs ?


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## nomi007



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## ghazi52

CAS WITNESSES CONCLUDING CEREMONY OF INTER-BAND COMPETITION 2021-22

17 February, 2022: PAF Inter-Band Competition 2021-22 concluded at PAF Complex, Islamabad. Air Chief Marshal Zaheer Ahmed Baber Sidhu, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force was the Chief Guest at the closing ceremony.

General discipline, dress and instruments inspection, marching in columns and drawing different patterns were part of three-day annual Musical Fiesta. Four PAF Brass Band Units displayed dexterity of professionalism and created magic with their tunes.

Moreover, in connection to Diamond Jubilee celebrations of independence of Pakistan, a special saga was performed by all participating units. While playing tunes of national and folk songs, all Band Units drew collectively the digit “75 surrounded by Crescent.” Besides, Brass and Pipers Bands from Sister Services, Student Bands of Saleem Nawaz Fazaia College, PAF Base Masroor and Fazaia Inter College, PAF Base Minhas also participated as guest performers.

The Chief Guest awarded trophies and prizes to Winner Band, Best Band Master and Best individual performers. The Chief Guest also appreciated performance and artistic pursuits of all the participants.
*PAF SPOKESPERSON*

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## Raider 21

Windjammer said:


> *Ability Vs Capability.
> 
> There's been much debates and claims regarding how twin engine jets are more reliable than single engine ones or a certain aircraft boasts of so many hard points compared to others with fewer ones.
> Well, i guess it also boils down to ability and capability. Here we have the A-5 Fantan, retired from the PAF service almost a decade earlier, it had twin engines and Ten hardpoints compared to say the Mirage 3 or 5....both are single engine and have only 5 hardpoints. Yet the Mirage which entered into PAF service a decade before the A-5 arrived, still continues to serve in it's role.
> 
> View attachment 814879
> *


French craftsmanship and aircraft design outlasted Chinese aerospace engineering in those days.
Many PAF pilots died flying this when it was introduced. Despite twin-engined, it was underpowered.
As one PAF pilot quoted "thank goodness us junior taller ones were selected on F-16s, the rest of us were not too lucky. Half a squadron of A-5s were killed in less than 3 years...."

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## Windjammer

Raider 21 said:


> French craftsmanship and aircraft design outlasted Chinese aerospace engineering in those days.
> Many PAF pilots died flying this when it was introduced. Despite twin-engined, it was underpowered.
> As one PAF pilot quoted "thank goodness us junior taller ones of us were selected on F-16s, the rest of us were not too lucky. Half a squadron of A-5s were killed in less than 3 years...."


Yes but the A-5s have their own potential hence the reason some are kept in storage.

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## SQ8

Raider 21 said:


> French craftsmanship and aircraft design outlasted Chinese aerospace engineering in those days.
> Many PAF pilots died flying this when it was introduced. Despite twin-engined, it was underpowered.
> As one PAF pilot quoted "thank goodness us junior taller ones of us were selected on F-16s, the rest of us were not too lucky. Half a squadron of A-5s were killed in less than 3 years...."


A large contributor to that issue was using the FT-6 to train A-5 pilots. The Difference in T/W was more than palpable but pilots kept flying the FT-6 while in the A-5

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

SQ8 said:


> A large contributor to that issue was using the FT-6 to train A-5 pilots. The Difference in T/W was more than palpable but pilots kept flying the FT-6 while in the A-5


The A-5 was a makeshift solution to plug the gap between the shelved plan for a dedicated attack aircraft and the shift to a mostly F-16 fleet.

In the 1970s, the PAF was on the verge of ordering 110 A-7s. That deal fell through, but the British stepped in by offering the Jaguar. The PAF felt the Jaguar was too cost-prohibitive and, by the early 1980s, all eyes were on multi-role platforms like the M2K and F-16. When the PAF ordered the Peace Gate I/II F-16s, I think they decided to shift towards a large F-16 fleet like most other F-16 operators. So, in other words, the F-16 was supposed to be the swiss-knife for air-to-air and air-to-ground.

I think the A-5 was supposed to be out by the mid-1990s via the Peace Gate IV F-16s.

That said, I think the really interesting question was what the PAF would've done if it got all the F-16s. That scenario puts the Mirage ROSE program in a whole new light. We wouldn't have had as many airframes as we ultimately did. Moreover, the US' willingness to release stand-off weapons with the F-16 was always going to be iffy, especially when (at least in the 1990s) the fighter wasn't really configured for it. 

IMO, something like the Tornado would've fit really, really well in that situation. When the PAF flew it, it wasn't a good fit for the multirole gap left by Pressler; but as a complementary strike-first, maritime option? Totally different story.

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## SQ8

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The A-5 was a makeshift solution to plug the gap between the shelved plan for a dedicated attack aircraft and the shift to a mostly F-16 fleet.
> 
> In the 1970s, the PAF was on the verge of ordering 110 A-7s. That deal fell through, but the British stepped in by offering the Jaguar. The PAF felt the Jaguar was too cost-prohibitive and, by the early 1980s, all eyes were on multi-role platforms like the M2K and F-16. When the PAF ordered the Peace Gate I/II F-16s, I think they decided to shift towards a large F-16 fleet like most other F-16 operators. So, in other words, the F-16 was supposed to be the swiss-knife for air-to-air and air-to-ground.
> 
> I think the A-5 was supposed to be out by the mid-1990s via the Peace Gate IV F-16s.
> 
> That said, I think the really interesting question was what the PAF would've done if it got all the F-16s. That scenario puts the Mirage ROSE program in a whole new light. We wouldn't have had as many airframes as we ultimately did. Moreover, the US' willingness to release stand-off weapons with the F-16 was always going to be iffy, especially when (at least in the 1990s) the fighter wasn't really configured for it.
> 
> IMO, something like the Tornado would've fit really, really well in that situation. When the PAF flew it, it wasn't a good fit for the multirole gap left by Pressler; but as a complementary strike-first, maritime option? Totally different story.


Another scenario I did at some point - but it fared ok since India would add M2ks to counter it.


----------



## khail007

Raider 21 said:


> French craftsmanship and aircraft design outlasted Chinese aerospace engineering in those days.
> Many PAF pilots died flying this when it was introduced. Despite twin-engined, it was underpowered.
> As one PAF pilot quoted "thank goodness us junior taller ones were selected on F-16s, the rest of us were not too lucky. Half a squadron of A-5s were killed in less than 3 years...."



IMO the story begins from F-6, A-5 seems to be a modified version with nose cone and side intakes and addition of hardpoints. No idea about the engines that both types have the same or different. F-6 was also a twin-engine.


----------



## Raja Porus

Windjammer said:


> Yes but the A-5s have their own potential hence the reason some are kept in storage.


Back in 2018 I over heard a convo between two PAF pilots while sitting besides them in a tennis court that A-5s are still in war reserve


During 2001-2 standoff, PAF was lacking bvr capability while IAF had it, so it'd would've have been interesting to see how PAF would counter this great handicap. Moreover we also lacked any credible AD assets.
The only solution I could see is that we would've to conduct preemptive strikes on their airbases and keep them suppressed, but even then what about their bases inland?
@SQ8 @Windjammer @PanzerKiel
@Hodor


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## CombatSurgeon

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Back in 2018 I over heard a convo between two PAF pilots while sitting besides them in a tennis court that A-5s are still in war reserve
> 
> 
> During 2001-2 standoff, PAF was lacking bvr capability while IAF had it, so it'd would've have been interesting to see how PAF would counter this great handicap. Moreover we also lacked any credible AD assets.
> The only solution I could see is that we would've to conduct preemptive strikes on their airbases and keep them suppressed, but even then what about their bases inland?
> @SQ8 @Windjammer @PanzerKiel
> @Hodor


 During that standoff, we were actually planning for the worst. In one particular briefing session at Mureed, the visiting DCAS Ops was so amped up his hands were shaking during address and his voice had a certain hard edge to it that we realized that we were much closer to the abyss than anyone had realized! And at Sukker and and one other base, dry rehearsals were conducted for possible nuclear strikes at 06 hours notice. Intel that filtered downward suggested that the Indian pilots had been allotted attack slots and sortie data. All that was left was the word GO.
And we had no plan to go after the inland bases. The only thing that mattered was the imminent incursion in Reti-RYK area and the very real prospect of a massive Air-Land battle by the opposition.

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## Raja Porus

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496142690685272072

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## mingle

Desert Fox 1 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496142690685272072


I hope we see more than just F16s

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## Windjammer

Desert Fox 1 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496142690685272072


Interesting, last time Falcon Talon between the two countries was held in Jan. 2019....at the request of the USAF who complained that PAF was holding joint exercises with, China, Turkey, Saudi Arab etc but not USAF. Then it was held at PAF Base Shahbaz.

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## Windjammer

Jab Gulshan Mein Bahar Aye.....Hum Ko Bi Yaad Kar Lena....

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## Ali_Baba

Windjammer said:


> Interesting, last time Falcon Talon between the two countries was held in Jan. 2019....at the request of the USAF who complained that PAF was holding joint exercises with, China, Turkey, Saudi Arab etc but not USAF. Then it was held at PAF Base Shahbaz.
> 
> View attachment 817622




But was that exercise held with USAF fighter jets? If i recall it was not fighter jets ..


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## Windjammer

Ali_Baba said:


> But was that exercise held with USAF fighter jets? If i recall it was not fighter jets ..


Yes USAF Vipers were very much there.

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## Thorough Pro

Why let these backstabbers back in our country?

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## mingle

Windjammer said:


> Yes USAF Vipers were very much there.
> 
> View attachment 817700


This time we will see vipers or any other fighter Jett by USAF?


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## StructE

khail007 said:


> IMO the story begins from F-6, A-5 seems to be a modified version with nose cone and side intakes and addition of hardpoints. No idea about the engines that both types have the same or different. F-6 was also a twin-engine.


Both use 2 WP 6 engines which was copy of RD9B


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## Bleek

Thorough Pro said:


> Why let these backstabbers back in our country?


Because this is politics, not school friends 


+ good training opportunity

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## Metal 0-1

Desert Fox 1 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496142690685272072


Last time I remember there was a single JTAC

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## Princeps Senatus

Thorough Pro said:


> Why let these backstabbers back in our country?


thank god people like you are not making the decisions otherwise we would have ended up like North Korea or Iran or god forbid Iraq

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## nomi007

The Story of a Pakistani Pilot Who Shot Down an Israeli Jet | Air Commodore Sattar Alvi | Trailer​

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## Talon

Thunder .. !!
Image source : Facebook

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## Ali_Baba

Does Pakistan have any IL-76's in Ukraine right now?


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## Tamiyah

Ali_Baba said:


> Does Pakistan have any IL-76's in Ukraine right now?


I think one upgraded one landed few days ago. No mention of if there was any other IL-76s there.


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## Thorough Pro

The so-called training is used by the wolf in the sheep's skin to assess your strengths and weaknesses so that when the time comes they can shit on your face and carry out operations in the middle of the most militarized city like Abbottabad in helos while the whole PAF was asleep




Bleek said:


> Because this is politics, not school friends
> 
> 
> + good training opportunity

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## nomi007

Did Pakistan Air Force Participate in the Arab-Israel War? | Air Commodore Sattar Alvi | Episode 1​

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## Bleek

Thorough Pro said:


> The so-called training is used by the wolf in the sheep's skin to assess your strengths and weaknesses so that when the time comes they can shit on your face and carry out operations in the middle of the most militarized city like Abbottabad in helos while the whole PAF was asleep


Pakistan allowed that to take place

Just like they allowed military bases


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## kursed

Tamiyah said:


> I think one upgraded one landed few days ago. No mention of if there was any other IL-76s there.


All are back in Pak.

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## mingle

kursed said:


> All are back in Pak.


What Pakistan expecting from Russia in term of defence needs??


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## kursed

mingle said:


> What Pakistan expecting from Russia in term of defence needs??


I hope nothing.

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## Raja Porus

Qatar has asked Pakistan,UK, France and Turkey to provide pilots (atleast 160).
PAF may end up flying F15, Typhoons or even Rafales..

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## mingle

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Qatar has asked Pakistan,UK, France and Turkey to provide pilots (atleast 160).
> PAF may end up flying F15, Typhoons or even Rafales..


Have jets but no pilot

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## SQ8

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Qatar has asked Pakistan,UK, France and Turkey to provide pilots (atleast 160).
> PAF may end up flying F15, Typhoons or even Rafales..


No Pakistani will be flying ANY of those platforms. UK and France will provide it along with the Turks. Pakistanis are not permitted anywhere near them and at best as technicians.

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## Raider 21

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Qatar has asked Pakistan,UK, France and Turkey to provide pilots (atleast 160).
> PAF may end up flying F15, Typhoons or even Rafales..


Pakistan at least (unsure about Turkey) will not even touch the ladders of the fighter jets. At most the training aircraft. PAF will not fly F-15s, Typhoons and Rafales. Please enough of this fanboyish stuff. PAF needs manpower for their own service right now.

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## araz

kursed said:


> I hope nothing.


Engine tech on RD93. Rest we can do without.
A


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## GriffinsRule

Did not see this posted yet.

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## Windjammer



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## The Eagle

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1498252159665721348

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1498252521902649349

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1498252699519041538

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1498252843022950406

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## araz

The Eagle said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1498252159665721348
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1498252521902649349
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1498252699519041538
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1498252843022950406


These are still block2s aren't they? So where will block 3 go??


----------



## aliyusuf

araz said:


> These are still block2s aren't they? So where will block 3 go??


Aggressor Squadron 29??

The F-16s may return to their squadrons of origin.


----------



## ghazi52

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1498283256671780866..............................

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## ghazi52

RAWALPINDI –.. Brigadier General Hamid Vahedi, Commander of the Air Force of Iran called on Air Chief Marshal Zaheer Ahmed Baber Sidhu, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force in his office on Monday.

A smartly turned out contingent of Pakistan Air Force presented him the Guard of Honour. Brigadier General Hamid Vahedi, also laid floral wreath at the Martyrs’ Monument to pay homage to the PAF’s Martyrs..
.

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## The Eagle

araz said:


> These are still block2s aren't they? So where will block 3 go??



Aggressors. We also know that, Block-II will be upgraded gradually. Block-IIIs mostly CAPs.

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## Air Wolf



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## ghazi52

..................

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1498686528671064068





...

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## ghazi52

..

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1498283256671780866.

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## Pakistan Ka Beta

27th Feb || Celebrating Swift Retort Day || Unveiling the JF-17 thunder Block 3 of PAF || PTV World​


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1497628459195154438

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## ghazi52

..




.

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## Madni Bappa

How many years or in what decade will PAF have to start brainstorming for a JF17 replacement? 

Or should they start now?

Could wingman drones become a multiplying factor for numbers in airforce?

Or just force multiplyer for air superiority fighters in dog fights as the other side will have come up with counter technologies so they won't really add numbers but capability?


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## ghazi52

....

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1500046358526390272..

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## ghazi52

..




.

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## StructE

ghazi52 said:


> ..
> View attachment 821098
> 
> .
> 
> View attachment 821099



Don't see JF-17, now that Block 3 is inducted, I was expecting Block 1 and 2 will join the exercise.

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## ghazi52

........







DGPR (AIR FORCE)

@DGPR_PAF

8th March 1968 was a historic day in the history of Pakistan Air Force. On this day, first batch of formidable French Mirages was ferried-in to Pakistan. A group of promising fighter pilots under the command of legendary MM Alam accomplish the historic task.




6:47 AM · Mar 8, 2022

....

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## ghazi52

.....




DGPR (AIR FORCE)
@DGPR_PAF

Elite No 5 Sqn was given the honor of inducting state-of-the-art weapon system of that time. In the 1971 War, the newly inducted Mirages honored the legacy of 1965 and proved its mettle. Induction of Dassault Mirage III, made PAF the only Air Force of the region to operate, one of the most modern jet of that Era, incorporating superior design, flight control system, armament and long radius of action.







.......

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## ghazi52

..





Prime Minister Imran Khan is pictured with other guests at the induction ceremony. — Picture courtesy: PMO






.






.....

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## ghazi52

.....

























...........

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## The Eagle

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1502325640485171200

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1502326359191801859

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1502326421242351618

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## Yasser76

Would be interesting to see PAF ORBAT now, as No 15 sqd gets the J-10 and No 17 sqd gets the Block III

I take it we will have at least one more J-10 sqd and 2 more Block III Sqds? That should mean all F-7s and all Mirage units (apart from Saif Shikan) completely replaced with modern planes?

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## Windjammer

*PAF Air chief gesturing as what he intends to do to Indian Air Force.*


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1502620330547822593

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## ghazi52

........

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1502984783319605254..........

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## ghazi52

.....




....

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## ghazi52

........

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1503345848457039877.........

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## ghazi52

//////




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=5054395064596832




///////

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## TsAr

ghazi52 said:


> //////
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=5054395064596832
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ///////


what with the terminology Indus Viper and Indus Dragon


----------



## ghazi52

​







DGPR (AIR FORCE)

@DGPR_PAF

Today we pay tribute to an elite fighter Sqn of Pakistan Air Force - No 23 Squadron “Talons”. Raised on 16 March 1961, under the command of Sqn Ldr A.M Nazir, No 23 Squadron was initially located at Kohat and equipped with Fury aircraft. The unit was disbanded in 1964 when its

12:56 PM · Mar 16, 2022·



Fury aircraft were phased out. In 1966, the unit was reactivated at Sargodha and reloaded with the newly inducted F-6s and assigned the role of Air Defence. With a mission of imparting superior training to produce finest Air Leaders, Talons hold the core values of Integrity,

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## Talon

Windjammer said:


> *PAF Air chief gesturing as what he intends to do to Indian Air Force.*
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1502620330547822593


He's either stating about dispensing of Flares or smth about AB engagement. But funny though

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## RAMPAGE

Hodor said:


> He's either stating about dispensing of Flares or smth about AB engagement. But funny though


NFP needs to caption this.

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## ghazi52

.







DGPR (AIR FORCE)

@DGPR_PAF
·
2h

Today, the glorious Talons dazzle the skies of Pakistan with the ever dependable F- 7PG aircraft. Pakistan Air Force applauds the “Talons” that brought laurels and a very high name for the nation and PAF.




........

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## ghazi52

.....

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1503345848457039877...........................

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## ghazi52

......

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1504463044310614017......

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## ghazi52

............





.........

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## ghazi52

,.,.,.,.,





IiiiiI

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## aviator_fan

I have been watching a few of the Swift Retort anniversary base documentaries the channels have been doing on Youtube. I see consistently there (and also on social media by PAF's media arm) use the location to be referred to be as an 'operational base'. I can see in the middle of an international exercise thats probably needed but its almost always the case they never use the word. One could say its for security purposes so as not to reveal the layout of the installation.

But most of us can figure out from the vegetation around the base to know which one is Mushaf/Kamra/Samungli etc just because how the distinct it is. The interviewer mentions the squadron name so easy to figure out (public info) which location the squadron is based out of.

This generic 'operational base' is obviously for security reasons but is it relevant in today's world where google earth free image gives a pretty good layout of the area.

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## ghazi52

,.,.,

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1506234268879503363.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,

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## ghazi52

,.,.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1506651023019966467,.

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## ghazi52

,.,

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1506581451399053312.,.,.

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## ghazi52

,.,






'Airpower Centre of Excellence 'ACE'

The aims of the ACE are as follow

1 . Application of flying tactics.
2. Utilisation of weapon systems.
3. Standardisation and evaluation of various units.
4. Research and development in the field of tactics.
.,.,

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## ghazi52

,.,.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1506982788561473538,.,.

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## ghazi52

,.,.,
PRESIDENT OF PAKISTAN CONFERS NON-OPERATIONAL MILITARY AWARDS UPON OFFICERS OF PAKISTAN AIR FORCE...

24 March, 2022: President of Pakistan has conferred Non-Operational Military Awards upon officers of Pakistan Air Force on the occasion of Pakistan Day.

Air Vice Marshal Muhammad Nadeem Sabir, Air Vice Marshal Muhammad Qiaser Janjua and Air Vice Marshal Shams-Ul-Haq have been awarded Hilal-i-Imtiaz (Military). Moreover, 21 Sitara-i-Imtiaz (Military), 18 Tamgha-i-Imtiaz (Military) and 13 Imtiazi Asnad have also been conferred.
.,.,.,.,

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## ghazi52

;'

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1507307198837260290;';'

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## Windjammer

AVM Zafar Aslam. 
From an iconic poster model to now a senior figure still flying the F-16.

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## Raider 21

Windjammer said:


> AVM Zafar Aslam.
> From an iconic poster model to now a senior figure still flying the F-16.
> 
> View attachment 827818


I wonder if the one on the left is Zafar Ahsan, he was killed in 1989 flying a Viper. As there was a recruitment poster with him.


----------



## mingle

Raider 21 said:


> I wonder if the one on the left is Zafar Ahsan, he was killed in 1989 flying a Viper. As there was a recruitment poster with him.


No it's not Zafar Ahsan


----------



## Raider 21

mingle said:


> No it's not Zafar Ahsan


Ok. I recall the same Join Pakistan Air Force poster with Zafar Aslam looking very much like Zafar Ahsan (Late). Hence the confusion.

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## ghazi52

,.,.
*GRADUATION CEREMONY HELD AT PAF ACADEMY, ASGHAR KHAN, RISALPUR*

28 March, 2022: The Graduation Ceremony of 127th Combat Support, 43rd BLPC Course, 7th Log (A), 3rd AD (SSC) and 2nd Grooming Courses was held at PAF Academy, Asghar Khan today. Air Marshal Zulfiquar Ahmad Qureshi, Deputy Chief of the Air Staff (Training) was the Chief Guest at the occasion. On his arrival at the Academy, he was received by Air Vice Marshal Qaiser Janjua, Air Officer Commanding, PAF Academy Asghar Khan.

A total of 63 cadets graduated at the occasion. The Chief Guest awarded branch insignias to the graduating cadets and trophies to the distinction holders. Air Marshal Asghar Khan Trophy for the overall best performance in 127th Combat Support Course was awarded to Aviation Cadet Muhammad Talha. 

While addressing the graduating cadets, the Chief Guest said, “You have become part of Pakistan Air Force that has a legacy of finest traditions of valour, heroism and patriotism of air warriors”. He further added that they must remain abreast of the latest developments and modern concepts in respective fields for performing their duties with utmost commitment and responsibilities. At the end, the Chief Guest congratulated the graduating cadets on successful accomplishment of an important milestone in their lives.

The Ceremony was witnessed by high-ranking Military, Civil Officials and a large number of guests of graduating cadets....













;',..

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## Inception-06

Now with new world Order ( will be clearly visible after the Prime Minister Imran Khans survival or Fall) if Imran Khan success, Russia shouldn’t have any obligations or objectives against any Chinese Flankers in the spheres of Pakistan Air Force, India is clearly running away from the Russians.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## Jango

Came across a post for jobs at the aerospace park at PAF Kamra. 

Apart from the usual FPGA and DSP, mechanical, aerospace engineers, there were vacancies for photonics engineers, nanotech engineers and scientists, computer vision, and also biotech engineers (this took me the most by surprise). 

Pretty interesting to see. What kind of role would there be for a biotech engineer in such a setup within Pakistan? @SQ8 ?

A couple of years ago, these guys were hiring the top of the line talent from the likes of NUST and GIK etc, but at a paltry salary and a fair few of them left the jobs, citing the low salary and also the fauji culture.

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## SQ8

Jango said:


> Came across a post for jobs at the aerospace park at PAF Kamra.
> 
> Apart from the usual FPGA and DSP, mechanical, aerospace engineers, there were vacancies for photonics engineers, nanotech engineers and scientists, computer vision, and also biotech engineers (this took me the most by surprise).
> 
> Pretty interesting to see. What kind of role would there be for a biotech engineer in such a setup within Pakistan? @SQ8 ?
> 
> A couple of years ago, these guys were hiring the top of the line talent from the likes of NUST and GIK etc, but at a paltry salary and a fair few of them left the jobs, citing the low salary and also the fauji culture.


Commercial ventures for making Medical devices?
So long as the low salary and Fauji culture remains static, these will remain starter springboard jobs for moving elsewhere or abroad.

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## Jango

SQ8 said:


> Commercial ventures for making Medical devices?
> So long as the low salary and Fauji culture remains static, these will remain starter springboard jobs for moving elsewhere or abroad.



Funny you say that, because at least 5 people I know did indeed leave for greener pastures abroad after putting in a year or so over there.

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## JamD

Jango said:


> Funny you say that, because at least 5 people I know did indeed leave for greener pastures abroad after putting in a year or so over there.


A very common story for the reasons that you stated. I think I know around or more than that number too that left.

On the flip side I know a couple of US educated people that moved back to work there. But that's literally 2 people.

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## Signalian

Dawn of a New Era​
*In a quickly changing geostrategic environment and hastened military acquisitions by India, especially after post-Pulwama embarrassment, PAF’s acquisition of J-10C rebalances conventional warfare capabilities. This report dives into the technicalities and opportunities J-10C provides for the country’s defense. *
Contemporary geostrategic environment is in a state of flux due to the intervening of geopolitics and geoeconomics, mainly enabled by transforming global order and growing regional interdependencies. South Asian region, home to two nuclear powers having antagonist postures with a history of conflicts and confrontations, has been particularly affected by these changes. Recent developments in Afghanistan and Asia Pacific region along with growing Indian military-strategic partnerships with various countries, have further accentuated the instability of the region. The emerging regional environment also leverages our adversary an opportunity to further its regional ambitions to become a net security provider and regional power. Under such impression, India’s unilateral desire of an arms race coupled by enormous military spending, especially in non-contact warfare, ballistic missile defense, hypersonic technology, artificial intelligence, drones and acquisition of modern jets is a recipe for critical security dilemma in the region. Particularly, post-Pulwama embarrassment suffered during Operation Swift Retort has hastened Indian military acquisitions including Rafale jets and S-400 systems. 





Pakistan has always believed in peaceful coexistence and cooperation with all its neighbors for mutual progress and friendship. However, the instability of the region and Pakistan-specific aggressive designs of our eastern neighbor are serious concerns for the national security. With current capabilities, Pakistan Armed Forces are fully capable of ensuring the defense of the country against any aggression. Without embroiling into any arms race, Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has always believed in its modernization along with the maintenance of highest standards of values, leadership and training to meet any challenges. Pakistan is also fully aware of the need of air defense of the country in the backdrop of Indian large-scale military acquisitions, especially by Indian Air Force. Despite the economic challenges posed by COVID-19 pandemic, government of Pakistan believed in the primacy of air power and decided to equip PAF with cutting edge, modern, state-of-the-art capability in the shape of J-10C aircraft to counterbalance the growing asymmetry and ensure air defense of Pakistan. 






J-10C is a 4.5+ generation, ultra-modern, omni-role fighter aircraft enabled with long-range first-shot Beyond Visual Range (BVR) capability which would offset any fighter capability possessed by our adversary. Equipped with the latest avionics such as modern AESA radar, integrated EW suite, informationized fused sensor systems as well as the capability to carry a variety of modern weapons, the aircraft is capable to deny enemy advantage in the domains of air, land and sea warfare. Owing to its excellent performance in all combat regimes and altitudes, matchless maneuverability and advanced integrated electronic warfare suite; the aircraft can take on any contemporary aerial and ground threats with a high degree of precision.

Air Chief Marshal Zaheer Ahmed Baber Sidhu, Chief of the Air Staff, PAF, after assuming command on March 21, 2021, embarked on the journey of modernizing PAF at a fast pace. Visualizing smart acquisitions as a way forward, he immediately sought approval of Government of Pakistan and Prime Minister for the acquisition of a 4.5+ generation fighter aircraft with state-of-the-art avionics and weapons. The J-10C aircraft, owing to its exclusive capabilities, was selected to act as a front line fighter for PAF and thus, it became the first air force to induct this modern fighter in its fleet after The People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF). Government of Pakistan, realizing the emerging geostrategic environment, ensured the availability of this capability through tremendous cooperation of our time-tested and all-weather friend, China. 

Owing to vigorous engagement by the leadership of PAF, a strategic framework was signed on April 21, 2021 which was followed by an immediate visit of PAF’s team to China. The contract for the acquisition of the J-10C weapons system was signed with Chinese Original Equipment Market (OEM) on June 25, 2021, which included the provision of jets and associated weaponry along with initial training of the air and ground crew. Owing to the visionary leadership, an energetic team, immense cooperation, coordination and collaboration from China, availability of the aircraft was made possible within a record time of eight months, which is truly unprecedented. Immense and earnest support of the Chinese government played a pivotal role in the timely production of aircraft and training of PAF air and ground crew. No doubt that the contract and subsequent delivery of aircraft in March 2022 could not have been achieved without the support and patronage of Prime Minister of Pakistan, Mr. Imran Khan. The acquisition of J-10C aircraft is a strategic milestone for PAF and will go a long way in enhancing PAF’s capability to ensure impregnable defense of the aerial frontiers of Pakistan. 






March 11, 2022, was a momentous day for PAF as J-10C fighter aircraft was formally inducted in the fleet of PAF. To mark this historic event, a ceremony was held at an operational air base of PAF. Prime Minister of Pakistan, Mr. Imran Khan, was the chief guest at the occasion. On his arrival, the chief guest was received by Air Chief Marshal Zaheer Ahmed Baber Sidhu, Chief of the Air Staff, PAF. The chief guest was presented guard of honor by a smartly turned out contingent of PAF.
Terming it a historical occasion, the Air Chief said, "The advancement in space, electronic warfare, cyber, niche technologies coupled with artificial intelligence had profoundly affected the traditional environment of national security. In order to provide safe and secure environment to a national mission against all threats, the armed forces of Pakistan continue to synergize their efforts by bridging the capability gaps through timely induction programs. Considering modern parameters of warfare, induction of J-10C aircraft into Pakistan’s arsenal was a result of one such combined effort which merits profound appreciation." The Air Chief acknowledged the outstanding support which the PAF received from the Government of Pakistan despite challenges and COVID-19 pandemic. He further said that the achievement of this important milestone could not have been possible without the kind patronage of Prime Minister of Pakistan, which enabled PAF to induct this state-of-the-art weapons system in a short span of eight months. 

In his speech, the Air Chief also made a special mention of the all-out support of COAS and said that all ranks and pilots of PAF admire his vision and personal involvement to see the manifestation of the J-10C project. He further said that the ceremony was a testimony to the strong partnership between the two brotherly states, Pakistan and China. Our commitment to work together in multiple domains is undoubtedly significant to ensure peace and stability in the region. He commended the dedication and professionalism of the entire team for the successful induction of the weapons system in a record time despite several challenges. Talking of the capabilities of the newly inducted aircraft, the Air Chief said, "J-10C aircraft is equipped with modern state-of-the-art avionics suite and advanced cockpit layout. The capability to carry a number of air to air and air to ground/sea weapons makes it a formidable fighter jet. Integration of a potent BVR missile further makes it a versatile fighter aircraft in today’s air battle arena. Induction of J-10C aircraft in PAF is a major milestone which would boost operational capabilities of Pakistan Air Force."






While addressing the audience, the Prime Minister, Mr. Imran Khan, congratulated the whole nation and said, “Nearly forty years after the arrival of the F-16s, the induction of these aircraft is a major step. On behalf of the Pakistani nation, I would like to send a message to our Armed Forces that we are proud that our Armed Forces can defend us. We have fought a very difficult war against terrorism. Our Armed Forces and the people fought this war and showed the whole world that this is the country that can protect itself. After today's event, I have gained more confidence that no one can put any kind of pressure on us. We will do everything possible to strengthen our defence."

The ceremony was followed by a thrilling aerial display by JF-17s, F-16s, Mirages, J-10C and PAF Academy aerobatics team, Sherdil. The ceremony was witnessed by tri-services chiefs, diplomats, foreign dignitaries, ministers and a large number of high-ranking military and civil officials. 

Pakistan Air Force continues to prove equal to the legacy of its forefathers and endeavors to remain Second to None, as envisioned by the Father of the Nation, Quaid-e-Azam Mohammad Ali Jinnah.









Dawn of a New Era


In a quickly changing geostrategic environment and hastened military acquisitions by India, especially after post-Pulwama embarrassment, PAF’s acquisition of J-10C rebalances conventional warfare capabilities. This report dives into the technicalities and opportunities J-10C provides for the...




www.hilal.gov.pk

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## rvats

Gentlemen - I've tried to do an analysis of Pakistan Air Force's Air to Ground Weapons & Capability. And the kind of threat and challenge it poses to India. Please do have a look and do share your feedback. Do point out errors, if any, in the comments section. Or, in case I've missed something significant.

I've attempted to do an objective, and factual analysis here. Request you to keep the replies/comments factual and to the point.

Many thanks.

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## araz

rvats said:


> Gentlemen - I've tried to do an analysis of Pakistan Air Force's Air to Ground Weapons & Capability. And the kind of threat and challenge it poses to India. Please do have a look and do share your feedback. Do point out errors, if any, in the comments section. Or, in case I've missed something significant.
> 
> I've attempted to do an objective, and factual analysis here. Request you to keep the replies/comments factual and to the point.
> 
> Many thanks.


Multiple threads. Please delete threads in multiple sections so it can be discussed properly

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## Thorough Pro

The biggest threat to IAF is not from PAF ground to air weapons but rather from Indian Air Defence, and you know better what type of weapons you have.




rvats said:


> Gentlemen - I've tried to do an analysis of Pakistan Air Force's Air to Ground Weapons & Capability. And the kind of threat and challenge it poses to India. Please do have a look and do share your feedback. Do point out errors, if any, in the comments section. Or, in case I've missed something significant.
> 
> I've attempted to do an objective, and factual analysis here. Request you to keep the replies/comments factual and to the point.
> 
> Many thanks.


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## MastanKhan

Thorough Pro said:


> The biggest threat to IAF is not from PAF ground to air weapons but rather from Indian Air Defence, and you know better what type of weapons you have.



Hi,

Pak military has shot down a couple of their own aircrafts

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## Cent4

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Pak military has shot down a couple of their own aircrafts


When was that.


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## GriffinsRule

Cent4 said:


> When was that.


During the Indo-Pak wars PAF aircraft were shot down by air defense. At least two aircraft have been shot down in air-air, the F-16 everyone knows about, and a Mirage 3 due to the pilot not turning off master arm switch during a training mission.

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## Windjammer

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Pak military has shot down a couple of their own aircrafts


Friendly fire incidents are not just confined to the PAF. 
Let me remind you that in this day and age with all the technology at disposal, India shot down own Chopper even in a minor skirmish...

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## ghazi52

,.,.
FIRST DEPUTY DEFENCE MINISTER/CHIEF OF GENERAL STAFF OF ARMED FORCES OF KAZAKHSTAN, CALLS ON AIR CHIEF

12 April, 2022: Lieutenant General Khussainov Marat Rakhimovich, First Deputy Defence Minister/Chief of General Staff of Armed Forces of Kazakhstan, called on Air Chief Marshal Zaheer Ahmed Baber Sidhu, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force in his office today.







,.

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## Talon

Windjammer said:


> Friendly fire incidents are not just confined to the PAF.
> Let me remind you that in this day and age with all the technology at disposal, India shot down own Chopper even in a minor skirmish...


Minor skirmish? 🤨

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## araz

ghazi52 said:


> ,.,.
> FIRST DEPUTY DEFENCE MINISTER/CHIEF OF GENERAL STAFF OF ARMED FORCES OF KAZAKHSTAN, CALLS ON AIR CHIEF
> 
> 12 April, 2022: Lieutenant General Khussainov Marat Rakhimovich, First Deputy Defence Minister/Chief of General Staff of Armed Forces of Kazakhstan, called on Air Chief Marshal Zaheer Ahmed Baber Sidhu, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force in his office today.
> 
> 
> View attachment 833584
> 
> ,.


I swear they have a cardboard cutout of our Air chief which they put out for every foreign dignitary visit. The man never changes his posture or look. Just an observation
A

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## Yasser76

araz said:


> I swear they have a cardboard cutout of our Air chief which they put out for every foreign dignitary visit. The man never changes his posture or look. Just an observation
> A



So true, although the Kazak ACM looks like a Serena Hotel doorman....

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## araz

Yasser76 said:


> So true, although the Kazak ACM looks like a Serena Hotel doorman....


He looks disgusted like he is saying " Not the same fking cut out Again!!! Iam sure the chief is very competent but his mass appeal amounts to about -15.😅😆😄😇🤣



araz said:


> I swear they have a cardboard cutout of our Air chief which they put out for every foreign dignitary visit. The man never changes his posture or look. Just an observation
> A


@PanzerKiel 
Any truth to the new f16s rumour or is it someone hallucinating due to extreme heat during Ramadan.
A

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## Yasser76

araz said:


> He looks disgusted like he is saying " Not the same fking cut out Again!!! Iam sure the chief is very competent but his mass appeal amounts to about -15.😅😆😄😇🤣
> 
> 
> @PanzerKiel
> Any truth to the new f16s rumour or is it someone hallucinating due to extreme heat during Ramadan.
> A



What is the point of new F-16s when we have J-10C?


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## araz

Yasser76 said:


> What is the point of new F-16s when we have J-10C?


The J10s will take us a couple of years to induct whereas F16s will be almost instantaneous induction/max 6 months. Plus For the 16s to come we will require CSF to be released (at least in an ideal world) so it will/be significantly cheaper. However I still think it is too little too late and very unlikely to happen.
A
A

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## Raja Porus

GriffinsRule said:


> During the Indo-Pak wars PAF aircraft were shot down by air defense. At least two aircraft have been shot down in air-air, the F-16 everyone knows about, and a Mirage 3 due to the pilot not turning off master arm switch during a training mission.


It was RB-57F. The state of the art ELINT/EW aircraft. It was a great asset for us.

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## Yasser76

araz said:


> The J10s will take us a couple of years to induct whereas F16s will be almost instantaneous induction/max 6 months. Plus For the 16s to come we will require CSF to be released (at least in an ideal world) so it will/be significantly cheaper. However I still think it is too little too late and very unlikely to happen.
> A
> A



I think any new F-16s will have to be "V" version, which will also take some time to properly train on, you are right, PAF is very familiar with the F-16 in general. However as more and more time passes on, the areas where US leads in Mil Tech vis a vis China becomes less and less. Outside the F-35 can US provide us anything that matches J-10/AESA/PL-16 combo? 
Even PN Sea Sultan maybe almost or just as capable as P-8.

I guess key areas where we would still benefit from US tech and not potentially compromise on national defence if sanctioned would be 

1) Gunships - AH-1Z
2) Anti-tank weapons
3) SeaRAM

Many of the things we used to chase US for we have managed to get via Europe/China that are almost, if not just as comparable, such as Patriot v HQ-9, Predator v Wing Loop, M109 v SH-16, Blackhawk v AW139, P-8 v Sea Sultan, F-16V v J-10C.

In hindsight over last 10 years Pak armed forces have done a good job weaning themselves off US products.

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## blain2

GriffinsRule said:


> During the Indo-Pak wars PAF aircraft were shot down by air defense. At least two aircraft have been shot down in air-air, the F-16 everyone knows about, and a Mirage 3 due to the pilot not turning off master arm switch during a training mission.


CAS Nur Khan was asked about the fratricide with AAA shooting down PAF aircraft. He said this is a risk we have to take and such things are bound to happen in the fog of war.

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## Windjammer

Hodor said:


> Minor skirmish? 🤨


In the sense it barely lasted minutes.

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## MastanKhan

Desert Fox 1 said:


> It was RB-57F. The state of the art ELINT/EW aircraft. It was a great asset for us.



Hi,

Paf pilots were not following procedure on that RB57F---. They should have been flying very high rather than they chose to fly low on entering pak air space.

Pure UN-Professionalism on part of the Paf pilots ( as much as I know the story )


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## GriffinsRule

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Paf pilots were not following procedure on that RB57F---. They should have been flying very high rather than they chose to fly low on entering pak air space.
> 
> As india had similar aircraft---army gunners shot at it and shot it down.
> 
> Pure UN-Professionalism on part of the Paf pilots ( as much as I know the story )


If I remember this correctly it was shot down near Peshawar during decent. The SA-2 missile badly damaged it and it was subsequently repaired and sent back to the US. 

Found a thread about it. https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/1965-war-role-of-the-rb-57f.60610/post-935034

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## ghazi52

.,.,













.,.,.,

.,.,












.,.,.,


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## ZedZeeshan

Just a curious Question .. I will appreciate if any member is kind enough to reply.
Why did PAF did not go for Tornedo..?? It was a good platform at its time and I feel a perfect one to replace mirages...!!


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## GriffinsRule

ZedZeeshan said:


> Just a curious Question .. I will appreciate if any member is kind enough to reply.
> Why did PAF did not go for Tornedo..?? It was a good platform at its time and I feel a perfect one to replace mirages...!!


Cost

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## SQ8

ZedZeeshan said:


> Just a curious Question .. I will appreciate if any member is kind enough to reply.
> Why did PAF did not go for Tornedo..?? It was a good platform at its time and I feel a perfect one to replace mirages...!!


Unsuitable platform which PAF did not want in the 70s - PAF wanted a multirole then. When it did want a strike platform then the M2k was there but that story didn’t play well

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

SQ8 said:


> Unsuitable platform which PAF did not want in the 70s - PAF wanted a multirole then. When it did want a strike platform then the M2k was there but that story didn’t play well


The CAS at the time, ACM Pervaiz Mehdi Qureishi, said the PAF needed around 80 new fighters to make up for the loss of Peace Gate-III/IV. They chose the M2K/-5 around that time because it was a multi-role fighter, but the added strike capability was a huge benefit.

I think the only scenario where the PAF would've seriously considered the Tornado was if had gotten the Peace Gate III/IV F-16s. You have 100 F-16s (potentially more as ACM Qureishi said we had an option for 50 more aircraft) for multi-role and a few Tornado squadrons for the strike and maritime roles. 

However, that likely wouldn't have happened because of our limited fiscal capacity. I'm sure the PAF would've preferred buying both the F-16 and A-7 Corsair II, but it could only pick one.

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## Windjammer

Late ACM Mushaff Ali, inducting the F-7PGs during hostilities with India in 2002.

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## GriffinsRule

Windjammer said:


> Late ACM Mushaff Ali, inducting the F-7PGs during hostilities with India in 2002.
> 
> View attachment 835596


I always liked the old PG scheme vs what they have now


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## 帅的一匹

Windjammer said:


> Late ACM Mushaff Ali, inducting the F-7PGs during hostilities with India in 2002.
> 
> View attachment 835596


That was the best China can offer to Pakistan back then

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## Shabi1

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The CAS at the time, ACM Pervaiz Mehdi Qureishi, said the PAF needed around 80 new fighters to make up for the loss of Peace Gate-III/IV. They chose the M2K/-5 around that time because it was a multi-role fighter, but the added strike capability was a huge benefit.
> 
> I think the only scenario where the PAF would've seriously considered the Tornado was if had gotten the Peace Gate III/IV F-16s. You have 100 F-16s (potentially more as ACM Qureishi said we had an option for 50 more aircraft) for multi-role and a few Tornado squadrons for the strike and maritime roles.
> 
> However, that likely wouldn't have happened because of our limited fiscal capacity. I'm sure the PAF would've preferred buying both the F-16 and A-7 Corsair II, but it could only pick one.


Had Mirage F-1 been still in production post 1992 it would have been a good contender too. Its too much of a legacy fighter now but wonder why PAF never considered buying used M F1s while it was procuring used Mirage 3/5s since they had commonality and there are decently upgraded ones still flying so had good modernization potential.


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## Yasser76

Shabi1 said:


> Had Mirage F-1 been still in production post 1992 it would have been a good contender too. Its too much of a legacy fighter now but wonder why PAF never considered buying used M F1s while it was procuring used Mirage 3/5s since they had commonality and there are decently upgraded ones still flying so had good modernization potential.



Mirage F-1 would of been a good move, especially as we had all the weapons and equipment for Mirage III/5 and pilots who flew it for Qatar and Iraq. Could of also tried for some form of in house production. Ultimately though it came to late as already the F-16 was in USAF service by the F-1 reached French Air Force and Dassualt was already promoting the Mirage 2000.

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## ghazi52

,.,.,.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1517121414158974977

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## ghazi52

,.,.,.,..,

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1517069314595049472

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## mingle

ghazi52 said:


> ,.,.,.
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1517121414158974977


This is his 3rd meeting with Air Chief what he is up to?


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## Chak Bamu

帅的一匹 said:


> That was the best China can offer to Pakistan back then


And a big Thank You to China for_ poor man's F-16s_. They did well for their time.

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## ghazi52

,.,..

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## MastanKhan

帅的一匹 said:


> That was the best China can offer to Pakistan back then



Hi,

Indeed it was.
At first paf was apprehensive about getting the air craft, but china insisted paf on testing it.
Paf was in for a pleasant surprise ar the capabilities of the machine.

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## ghazi52

.,.,

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1524109783623770115

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## fatman17

Pakistan's first government owned VIP aircraft, Vickers Viking VC-1 Sr No J-750, operated by No. 12 Squadron #GlobeTrotters. this aircraft has honor of being personal mount of Quaid-e-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah. Governor General's seal can be seen under wind screen https://t.co/AnGGsyFn9D


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## Sinnerman108

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The CAS at the time, ACM Pervaiz Mehdi Qureishi, said the PAF needed around 80 new fighters to make up for the loss of Peace Gate-III/IV. They chose the M2K/-5 around that time because it was a multi-role fighter, but the added strike capability was a huge benefit.
> 
> I think the only scenario where the PAF would've seriously considered the Tornado was if had gotten the Peace Gate III/IV F-16s. You have 100 F-16s (potentially more as ACM Qureishi said we had an option for 50 more aircraft) for multi-role and a few Tornado squadrons for the strike and maritime roles.
> 
> However, that likely wouldn't have happened because of our limited fiscal capacity. I'm sure the PAF would've preferred buying both the F-16 and A-7 Corsair II, but it could only pick one.



Some times it seems like a grand design,

Tornadoes were a casualty of Typhoons,
Mirages were sacrificed for Rafael.

Even the Mirage 4000 was written off, in spite of ticking almost every check box.

imagine, had we gotten the Emarati, or Qatari Mirages back in the day, 
do you think Dassault would be interested supporting them ?


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## fatman17

How a Jewish fighter pilot from Poland, became a Pakistani hero? 

Air commodore Wladyslaw Josef Marian Turowicz: A Pakistani by choice!

Wladyslaw Turowicz and his 30 Polish colleagues made the Pakistan airforce one of the most admirable force in Asia in the days when Pakistan Airforce itself seemed to have been abondoned by the British pilots and airmen after the independence. These Polish pilots in fact continued the legacy left behind by the RAF.

Not only that, Turowicz, popularily known as Toro, was the man, who was Godfather of Pakistan's space and missile program. He was also the core member of Pakistan's nuclear project. Would you believe?

Early life: 
Wladyslaw Turowicz was born on 23th April 1908 into a small village of polish labourers "Wadziejewsko" situated in Siberia Russia. His father was working as a imprisoned labourer to build the Trans- Siberian railway line for the Russian empire under Tsar.

In 1922 after communist revolution, his family slipped away back to Warsaw, Poland. Where after matriculation he went to the prestigeous Warsaw University of Technology (WUT). In 1936 he did his Phd with honors in aeronautical engineering. He then Joined "Aeroklub Polski". Where he got his master's degree in Astrophysics. At the same club he also met his Future wife "Zofia" who was at the age of just 20, already famous as a gliding pilot.

Career:
Turowicz joined Polish airforce in 1938 as a fighter pilot. Next year in Sept 1939, World War-II broke out. He was posted in the south west of country. Where he was ordered to disable his aircraft and leave for neighbouring Romania. In the Autum of 1940, Zofia somehow came all the way there to find him and the couple got married there. Meanwhile foreseeing the German outrage against the Jews, they sneaked to the Britain via Hungary and France. Turowicz joined RAF and was given a "Halifax" to fly. After the war was over, he was no more needed along with 8,000 other polish airmen. They were all grounded and abandoned.

Carrier with PAF:
Like many Polish pilots, Turowicz didn't want to go back to "after war Communist Poland" due to fear of being arrested. That moment Turowicz and Zofia, having two daughters already, were left in the middle of nowhere facing hardships of life. Meanwhile in 1948, Pakistan high commission in London announced a need for few trained pilots to replace the British pilots, who left after the independence. Capitalizing this oppertunity, Turowicz, Zofia along with 30 other Polish pilots joined the RPAF.
They were all given a 3 year contract with a handsome salary to begin with. Turowicz was posted at Drigh Road base while Zofia was assigned to train the gliding to PAF cadets.

In 1952, Turowicz was promoted as wing commander and posted as station commander of Chaklala. Meanwhile two more children were born to them. A boy and a girl. For the sake of education of their children and also some financial constraints, Zofia decided to stay back at Karachi. She left the PAF and started teaching applied Matematics and Astrophysics at Karachi American school and Karachi University. Most of the other polish pilots returned back after the completion of their 3 year contract, few of them joined Orient Airways which later became PIA. 

In 1957 Turowicz was posted back to Karachi and in 1959 he was promoted as group captain and in 1960 he became Air Commodore and joined the head quarters as Assistant Chief of Airstaff. In 1961 Turowicz and his family was granted Pakistani citizenship. 

During the war against India in 1965, USA stopped the supply of spare parts. Turowicz ensured the supply by locally produced spare parts. For this effort he was honored with Tamgha e Pakistan and later Sitara e Pakistan and Sitara e Quaid e Azam.

Association with Space and missile program: 
After the Russian space endevours of Sputnik, Turowicz along with Dr. Abdus Salam (Nobel prize fame) went to President Ayub Khan and convinced him for the need of country's space program. Which he agreed. Sooner, on 7th June 1962, Turowicz and his men launched Pakistan's first rocket Rahbar-1 into the space from Sonmiyani launching pad. The same duo, Turowicz and Dr.Abdus Salam visited USA for the next assignment and persuaded the US authorities to transfer rocket technology to Pakistan. Amazingly! it was agreed. Many Pakistani scientists were trained for the same. 
In 1967, Turowicz left PAF and was appointed as executive director of SUPARCO (Space and Upper Atmosphere Research Commission). During his days with SUPARCO, he led the country take a big leap into missile technology along with bringing modern space technology.
He finally retired in 1970. 

Last years of life:
His last years were shadowed by pain and disability resulting from a motor bike accident in his youth back in Poland. Which affected his spine badly. He was confined to a wheel chair. On 8th January 1980, Air commodore Wladyslaw Turowicz was killed during a road accident in Karachi along with his driver. He was burried with full millitary protocol and honor in the Christian Cemetery of Karachi. Madam Zofia stayed alive longer inq Karachi. Her grand children were source of joy for her. She died on 28th Feb 2012 at the age of 96 peacefully. She was also burried along side her husband at the Christian Cemetery, Karachi.

Family: 
Turowicz and Zofia had four children. Their two daughters are married to Pakistanis and are living in Karachi. The third one is married to a Bangladeshi. Their worthy son also became the excecutive director of SUPARCO. One of their grand son has just completed his Phd. in astrophysics in USA.

Attempts to engage Turowicz as a spy?:
Natalia Laskowska, a Polish journalist had written a detailed article on this topic which was also published in DAWN on 20 oct 2016. The classified documents open to public, revealed by Polish inteligence agency "Sluzba Bezpieczestwa" (SB) of the communist era indicate that numerous attempts were made in this regard through the polish diplomates, particularly after his engagement with Pakistan's space and nuclear programs, but all went unsuccessful and "SB" files were stamped as closed. Once Turowicz was asked about it after his retirement. What he replied was: "Yes many times. But they are slimy worthless people. why would I? I and my family belong to this country Pakistan".

In 2008, a 60 mnt documentary was made in Poland with the title of "Eaglets flying over Pakistan", depiciting Turowicz and other Polish pilots serving for PAF. It was for the first time in history acknowledging them as their own people.

We salute you Air Commodore Wladyslaw Turowicz! for all you did for our beloved country Pakistan. 

(Written by: Dr. Munir Pitafi)

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## fatman17

Two legends in single frame!
Legendary Air Commodore Syed Sajad "Nosey" Haider (retd) in cockpit of PAF Mirage IIIEA (IIIO) ROSE I 
He had flown older Mirage IIIEP during 1971 war, also had an encounter with IAF Su-7. https://t.co/JFRh3MPGzo

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## fatman17

F-16V: Why the 'Viper' Might Be the Best F-16 Fighter Ever


Lockheed Martin first unveiled plans for the F-16V at the 2012 Singapore Airshow - and it looks like the best F-16 ever.




www.19fortyfive.com


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## ghazi52

.,.,
24 May, 2022: An Iranian firefighting tanker aircraft arrived at PAF base, Nur Khan & has started aiding in efforts to extinguish the forest fire in Koh-i-Suleman range. 

The inclusion of Ilyushin IL-76TD/P aircraft will prove significant in fire extinguishing operation in Sherani district of Balochistan, since it is one of the biggest firefighter aircraft in the world. 

Keeping the tradition of being the frontline responder to natural calamities, Pakistan Air force is providing all-out support to the Iranian firefighting tanker aircraft. Pakistan and Iran enjoy cordial relations and are always forthcoming to help out each other during the calamities.

The fire in the Shirani forest started a week ago after the area was struck by lightning and has since engulfed hundreds of trees in mountain range, home to the world's largest pine nuts forest and connecting Balochistan, Punjab and Khyber Pakhtunkhwa provinces.

.

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## ghazi52

.,.,

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## Super Falcon

PAF will buy land based EW system Koral from turkey

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## fatman17

The MiG-21 fighter that flew everywhere

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## ghazi52

.,.,

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## ghazi52

,.,.,.,







The Chief of Air Staff of the Pakistan Air Force, Air Chief Marshal Zaheer Ahmad Babar is on an official visit to the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. He was received by the Commander of the Royal Saudi Air Force, Lieutenant General Turki bin Bandar Al Saud.

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## ghazi52

,.,.,.

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## syed_yusuf

ghazi52 said:


> ,.,.,.,
> View attachment 850226
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Chief of Air Staff of the Pakistan Air Force, Air Chief Marshal Zaheer Ahmad Babar is on an official visit to the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. He was received by the Commander of the Royal Saudi Air Force, Lieutenant General Turki bin Bandar Al Saud.
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 850227


Did u notice su30/35 in the background


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## Madni Bappa

syed_yusuf said:


> Did u notice su30/35 in the background


F15 hai yar

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## syed_yusuf

Madni Bappa said:


> F15 hai yar


Ok I see the vertical stabilizers


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## Salza




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## GriffinsRule

syed_yusuf said:


> Ok I see the vertical stabilizers


All 4 jets flown by Saudi AF. Why didi you think there would be Su-30 models there?


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## syed_yusuf

GriffinsRule said:


> All 4 jets flown by Saudi AF. Why didi you think there would be Su-30 models there?


It seems one example next to tornado looks like su30


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## SQ8

syed_yusuf said:


> It seems one example next to tornado looks like su30


The angle seems to give that impression that there is a hump but it is just the camo and wing playing tricks. Its just the F-15C


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## GriffinsRule

syed_yusuf said:


> It seems one example next to tornado looks like su30


Yeah mate, F-15C and S versions, besides the Typhoon and Tornado.


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## ZedZeeshan

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1535217156715069440

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1535218100416675840

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1535218109879132161

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1535218120205402112

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## ghazi52

.,.,.,.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1536340998149836800

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## Talon

🇵🇰 🇹🇷 soon

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## چوہدری جٹ

Salza said:


> View attachment 852347


Ye khabar kab ki hai ???


----------



## Trailer23

Thoughts...


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## ghazi52

.,.,.,

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1537842189350354944

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## fatman17

ACdr Sattar Alvi

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## Pakistan Ka Beta

Hodor said:


> 🇵🇰 🇹🇷 soon


can u explain please ????


----------



## ghazi52

.,.,

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1538868511635914753

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## fatman17

SC restores post-retirement benefits of 9 PAF employees | The Express Tribune


Bench observes offer of retirement before 20 years of service was against rules




tribune.com.pk





Benefits restored by SC

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## ghazi52

.,.,.,.,.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1539623698524946437

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## Pakistan Ka Beta

Pakistan Air Force to procure Belgian C-130 Transport Aircraft | June 2022 .​


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1538876316841295873



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1539287517769392129




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1539626496079298561




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1538873099256737792

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## ghazi52

.,.,

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## ghazi52

.,.,

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1539976631921496065

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## Pakistan Ka Beta

PASSING OUT PARADE OF AERO APPRENTICES, HELD AT PAF AIRMEN ACADEMY | July 2022 .​


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1544269040557899776



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1544269701508997120



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1544270129080532993




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1544270286656241670



05 July, 2022: Passing out Parade of Aero Apprentices was held at PAF Airmen Academy, Korangi Creek, Karachi today. Air Marshal Waqas Ahmed Sulehri, Chief Project Director JF-17, Pakistan Air Force, was the Chief Guest at the occasion. Earlier on his arrival, Air Vice Marshal Zubair Hassan Khan, Air Officer Commanding, PAAK received the Chief Guest. A total of 1601 Aero Apprentices including trainees from allied countries and Pakistan Navy successfully completed their training. While addressing the ceremony, the Chief Guest said, “Modern warfare is an exceedingly vast and complex domain, which demands thorough knowledge and inventiveness. We are facing complex and unusual challenges involving inventions and innovations offered by science and technology. We must prepare ourselves to face all such challenges being professionally focused and technically accurate”. Felicitating the trainees for this singular honour, the Chief Guest wished them a bright future and success in their professional assignments. He also commended the Academy instructional staff for their sincere endeavours and commitment to the cause of training. The Chief Guest also awarded trophies to high achievers. Asghar Khan Trophy for the Best in Aeronautics was awarded to AC Danish Liaqat. Nur Khan Trophy for the Best in Avionics Technology was awarded to Aero Electromech Technician-II Arslan Latif. Air Officer Commanding Trophy for the Best in General Service Training was awarded to Academy Sergeant Aircraftman Awais Abid, whereas Trophy for best foreign trainee was awarded to Cpl Akram Hossain of Bangladesh Air Force. Chief of the Air Staff Trophy for the Overall Best Performance was awarded to AC Abdul Quddos.

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## ghazi52

,.,.,.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1544269040557899776

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## Pakistan Ka Beta

A Safety Awareness Message by Pakistan Air Force | July 2022 .​














Login • Instagram


Welcome back to Instagram. Sign in to check out what your friends, family & interests have been capturing & sharing around the world.




www.instagram.com

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## Pakistan Ka Beta

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1545301411273084929




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1545307080470528001



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1544282929429356544


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1539542245065498626



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1539353363166404611











Monthly Defense News Recap – June 2022


The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is to receive another batch of J-10CEs, while the Pakistan Navy (PN) inducted its second Type-054A/P or Tughril-class frigate. However, while new Chinese systems headli...




quwa.org

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## ghazi52



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=5280182512019521


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## fatman17

Sher Afghan Winner





With the orange flight suit.

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## PanzerKiel

Recently heard rumors about Turkish Gokdogan missile being considered.

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## HRK

PanzerKiel said:


> Recently heard rumors about Turkish Gokdogan missile being considered.


for inventory wide use or for only with old platforms ... ? like Mirage Jets?


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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

HRK said:


> for inventory wide use or for only with old platforms ... ? like Mirage Jets?


Gokdo'an block 2 will be compatible to AMRAAM C-5, so a good choice from the PAF....









GÖKDOĞAN hava-hava füzesi Faz-2 ile 100 km menzile çıkabilir


Defence Turk Youtube kanalındaki "Güdümlü Mühimmatlar, Gelecek ve Türkiye | Ağ Merkezli Sohbetler - Bölüm 18" programında TÜBİTAK SAGE Enstitü




www.defenceturk.net

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## PanzerKiel

HRK said:


> for inventory wide use or for only with old platforms ... ? like Mirage Jets?


Rumor is for old platforms... Just rumors you know.

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## HRK

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> Gokdo'an block 2 will be compatible to AMRAAM C-5, so a good choice from the PAF....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GÖKDOĞAN hava-hava füzesi Faz-2 ile 100 km menzile çıkabilir
> 
> 
> Defence Turk Youtube kanalındaki "Güdümlü Mühimmatlar, Gelecek ve Türkiye | Ağ Merkezli Sohbetler - Bölüm 18" programında TÜBİTAK SAGE Enstitü
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.defenceturk.net


As Panzerkiel has stated that as per rumours Gokdoan is considered for Old platform so in this case it would be _*Gokdogan blk-1 BVR missile*_ with +70 Km range, Mirage jets have +65 KM range radar.

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## Dazzler

HRK said:


> As Panzerkiel has stated that as per rumours Gokdoan is considered for Old platform so in this case it would be blk-1 with +70 Km range, Mirage have +65 KM range radar.


Not for thunders. Sd-10a is sufficient for them.

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## HRK

Dazzler said:


> Not for thunders. Sd-10a is sufficient for them.


By the term 'blk-1' I was referring to the first blk of Gokdogan missile which reportedly have range of 65 or 70 km.

I was *not talking* about JF-17 blk-1, I am editing my post to make it more clear for others to understand

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## Ali_Baba

There is no harm in integration on all PAF platforms that includes the JF17s to aid in military diversification - but the older platforms would benefit more from a capability upgrade to some extent. The mirages are limited in the number of pylons they have - so they can be used to substiture in place of the shorter range AAMs they carry if PAF was prepared to rewire. The idea of a single BVR on a Mirage seems not that efficent to me when you consider how much money it takes to perform one mission etc.

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## HRK

Ali_Baba said:


> There is no harm in integration on all PAF platforms that includes the JF17s to aid in military diversification


- JF-17 already have better range BVR available, 

- F-7 are almost retired

- F-16 also have better range AIM-120C-5, further US would not allow any 3rd country system or weapon on F-16 in PAF fleet

This mean we are left only with Mirage jets, one more thing *If *Gokdogan is coming *then may be * WVR Goktug is also either under consideration or at some stage later would be considered.

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## Ali_Baba

HRK said:


> - JF-17 already have better range BVR available,
> 
> - F-7 are almost retired
> 
> - F-16 also have better range AIM-120C-5, further US would not allow any 3rd country system or weapon on F-16 in PAF fleet
> 
> This mean we are left only with Mirage jets, one more thing *If *Gokdogan is coming *then may be * WVR Goktug is also either under consideration or at some stage later would be considered.



Agree - i just hope if they integrate it then it the mirage is configured with 2 bvr missiles and not one - even if that means a dual rack... seems pointless to me to do all this work to just have 1 bvr missile!!!

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

HRK said:


> This mean we are left only with Mirage jets, one more thing *If *Gokdogan is coming *then may be * WVR* Goktug* is also either under consideration or at some stage later would be considered.


_Goktu'_ is the project's name. _Bozdo'an _is the WVR missile...

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## CombatSurgeon

Well, our own in-house BVR missile is in advanced stages of development! How many types would we be handling?

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

HRK said:


> - JF-17 already have better range BVR available,
> 
> - F-7 are almost retired
> 
> - F-16 also have better range AIM-120C-5, further US would not allow any 3rd country system or weapon on F-16 in PAF fleet
> 
> This mean we are left only with Mirage jets, one more thing *If *Gokdogan is coming *then may be * WVR Goktug is also either under consideration or at some stage later would be considered.


It could be for the in-house AESA radar program. Basically, a learning process to figure out BVR integration work. I can see the PAF experimenting with both the Mirage III/5 and JF-17, but not at a fleet-wide scale.

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## PanzerKiel

Sometime back, an operational requirement was floated, whereby, Mirage strike packages would be escorted by mirages as well, freeing up Thunders and Vipers for other important tasks. 

Even though we all would like DER or TER on Mirages..... But even one BVR type missile on an aircraft may do wonders. As a bandit, I would start my evasive maneuvers the moment my RWR came to life... And of course I won't be thinking that I'd been painted by an aircraft having only one missile. 

Afterall, It took only two missiles on February 19 to have a snowball effect.

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## Zarvan

PanzerKiel said:


> Recently heard rumors about Turkish Gokdogan missile being considered.


Well I hope not only we consider them but go for TOT and work on more range versions and ones with better engines. I mean same as Meteor of Europe. Good move if true.

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## PanzerKiel

Zarvan said:


> Well I hope not only we consider them but go for TOT and work on more range versions and ones with better engines. I mean same as Meteor of Europe. Good move if true.


TOT or not, multiple hundred missiles with longer shelf life are way better than having nothing.

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## Zarvan

PanzerKiel said:


> TOT or not, multiple hundred missiles with longer shelf life are way better than having nothing.


Totally agree

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## MastanKhan

Zarvan said:


> Well I hope not only we consider them but go for TOT and work on more range versions and ones with better engines. I mean same as Meteor of Europe. Good move if true.


Hi,

Why---please give technical reasons for doing that when there is already a conglomerate working successfully in that business.



PanzerKiel said:


> Sometime back, an operational requirement was floated, whereby, Mirage strike packages would be escorted by mirages as well, freeing up Thunders and Vipers for other important tasks.
> 
> Even though we all would like DER or TER on Mirages..... But even one BVR type missile on an aircraft may do wonders. As a bandit, I would start my evasive maneuvers the moment my RWR came to life... And of course I won't be thinking that I'd been painted by an aircraft having only one missile.
> 
> Afterall, It took only two missiles on February 19 to have a snowball effect.


Hi,

Most complicated situations have simpler solutions---and here the boys were talking about bvr missile racks for 4 and 6 missiles.

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## Sayfullah

PanzerKiel said:


> Sometime back, an operational requirement was floated, whereby, Mirage strike packages would be escorted by mirages as well, freeing up Thunders and Vipers for other important tasks.
> 
> Even though we all would like DER or TER on Mirages..... But even one BVR type missile on an aircraft may do wonders. As a bandit, I would start my evasive maneuvers the moment my RWR came to life... And of course I won't be thinking that I'd been painted by an aircraft having only one missile.
> 
> Afterall, It took only two missiles on February 19 to have a snowball effect.


Are the mirages going to be in service long enough for it to be beneficial? Also, if PAF are keeping mirages for long, is PAF going to consider picking up retiring mirage 2000 from Qatar and UAE to make the mirage fleet stronger?

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Zarvan said:


> Well I hope not only we consider them but go for TOT and work on more range versions and ones with better engines. I mean same as Meteor of Europe. Good move if true.


In fact TUBITAK-SAGE is working on ramjet powered BVR missile _GOK-HAN_ (Khan of the Sky), and anti-radiation missile AKDO'AN. Top most priority from the highest authority has been given to them...

According to the Turkish analysts, their test firing is coming soon as their serial production facilities are almost done. I am pretty sure PAF would be their first export customer even if Bajwa is in the power. What else Hindutva besides Rafael and S-400???

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## Pakistan Ka Beta

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1546039293155704834



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1546039295584215040


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## araz

Jf-17 block 3 said:


> Are the mirages going to be in service long enough for it to be beneficial? Also, if PAF are keeping mirages for long, is PAF going to consider picking up retiring mirage 2000 from Qatar and UAE to make the mirage fleet stronger?


The Mirage 2k is now a dead story for PAF. it does not make any sense whatsoever to pick them up. As to arming the M3s with a BVR, it is a last ditch attempt to give some teeth to a platform while we build up enough numbers of Block 3s.
A

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

araz said:


> The Mirage 2k is now a dead story for PAF. it does not make any sense whatsoever to pick them up. As to arming the M3s with a BVR, it is a last ditch attempt to give some teeth to a platform while we build up enough numbers of Block 3s.
> A


The irony is that the PAF would've had a much harder time keeping the M2Ks in the air versus the M3/5. The former didn't have as long of a production run, so there aren't as many spare aircraft left for parts and attrition. In other words, a costlier problem and, potentially, a premature retirement.

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## Reichmarshal

Had mr sidhu not been made as the air chief, we would not have heard anything about our mirage fleet other than the fact that they are to be employed as a dedicated strike platform. but as mr sidhu is a mirage dirver so...

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## araz

Reichmarshal said:


> Had mr sidhu not been made as the air chief, we would not have heard anything about our mirage fleet other than the fact that they are to be employed as a dedicated strike platform. but as mr sidhu is a mirage dirver so...


I rhink you are overestimating PAF's buying power. The fact remains we do not hace enpugh money to replace our ageing M3/5 Fleet along with the PGs. We cannot run the PGs any longer as the air frame life is approaching the end. The M3/5 fleet on the other hand has still got life in the air frame. It is therefore a question of making do with what we have. We do need a BVR on the M3/5s knowing fully well qe will not be able tp get more than 1 on board and also the fact we will only survive if we take a shot from a distance and scoot BTB. The M3/5s are not going to survive any modern day merge or even sticking around for a second shot.
A



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The irony is that the PAF would've had a much harder time keeping the M2Ks in the air versus the M3/5. The former didn't have as long of a production run, so there aren't as many spare aircraft left for parts and attrition. In other words, a costlier problem and, potentially, a premature retirement.


I have said this earlier the only way to do this would have been to buy the supply line as the french were winding down and maintain the fleet. The last attempted buy included spares for at least 20years but the Cost was 60 million a pop. On top of that the frogs took the offer off the table and put forward the Rafale for sale.
A

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## Reichmarshal

araz said:


> I rhink you are overestimating PAF's buying power. The fact remains we do not hace enpugh money to replace our ageing M3/5 Fleet along with the PGs. We cannot run the PGs any longer as the air frame life is approaching the end. The M3/5 fleet on the other hand has still got life in the air frame. It is therefore a question of making do with what we have. We do need a BVR on the M3/5s knowing fully well qe will not be able tp get more than 1 on board and also the fact we will only survive if we take a shot from a distance and scoot BTB. The M3/5s are not going to survive any modern day merge or even sticking around for a second shot.
> A


I think u have miss under stood my point.....like I said PAF has envisioned a role for 3/5 n ie dedicated strike ac.....now if ur adding bvr missiles n it means that ur expanding their role n the 3/5 are now to provide top cover as well or at the very least are r expected to fight their way out without external help.
At this point in their lives 3/5 should not be in the AF, let lone be expected to perform a role which will only make them a dead duck.
The skirmish with iaf should have been enough to prove that point

IK really mucked it up when he appointed Sidhu on the advice of bajwa....bajwa was only securing his flanks for his big game

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## WaqarAhmed161247

Reichmarshal said:


> I think u have miss under stood my point.....like I said PAF has envisioned a role for 3/5 n ie dedicated strike ac.....now if ur adding bvr missiles n it means that ur expanding their role n the 3/5 are now to provide top cover as well or at the very least are r expected to fight their way out without external help.
> At this point in their lives 3/5 should not be in the AF, let lone be expected to perform a role which will only make them a dead duck.
> The skirmish with iaf should have been enough to prove that point
> 
> IK really mucked it up when he appointed Sidhu on the advice of bajwa....bajwa was only securing his flanks for his big game


what about that old news about procuring some old mirages ,but not in use now ,from EGYPT for purpose of getting spares out of them and few of them still in flyable condition???


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## Thrust_Vector998

WaqarAhmed161247 said:


> what about that old news about procuring some old mirages ,but not in use now ,from EGYPT for purpose of getting spares out of them and few of them still in flyable condition???


They were blocked by the Indian lobby. ~Cited from *somebody inside*


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## WaqarAhmed161247

Thrust_Vector998 said:


> They were blocked by the Indian lobby. ~Cited from *somebody inside*


Afraid from even very very old and almost from scrap level jets or junks.SHAKTY😂


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## araz

Reichmarshal said:


> I think u have miss under stood my point.....like I said PAF has envisioned a role for 3/5 n ie dedicated strike ac.....now if ur adding bvr missiles n it means that ur expanding their role n the 3/5 are now to provide top cover as well or at the very least are r expected to fight their way out without external help.
> At this point in their lives 3/5 should not be in the AF, let lone be expected to perform a role which will only make them a dead duck.
> The skirmish with iaf should have been enough to prove that point
> 
> IK really mucked it up when he appointed Sidhu on the advice of bajwa....bajwa was only securing his flanks for his big game


Thank you for your post. I understood you fully the first time. If I remember correctly the appointment of the Current chief was not a Bajwa's behest but at the request of the outgoing Air chief . I think he happened to be the senior most officer in the AF so IK went with advice rendered by the AirChief.
Re the Mirages, I stand by my earlier post. I am aware of their niche role. This is not unusual as the A10s the Tornadoes, and the F4s are retained by certain air forces due to niche roles. As to the decision to employ the BVR on them ( even one on the Centre hardpoint which in my humble opinion is stupidity) is a last ditch stand of an AF which struggles to get enough platforms to comply with their needs. The Block 3 is delayed,they cannot get enough F16s from second hand market. The J10s in their current state are not suitable for A2G role. So we neither have a suitable platform nor do we have the money. This remains our dilemma rather than current ACM choice.
A

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## Pakistan Ka Beta

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1547827877508354048


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1547828859843649537



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1547854485258522627




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1547881850491637763


----------



## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## Reichmarshal

araz said:


> Thank you for your post. I understood you fully the first time. If I remember correctly the appointment of the Current chief was not a Bajwa's behest but at the request of the outgoing Air chief . I think he happened to be the senior most officer in the AF so IK went with advice rendered by the AirChief.
> Re the Mirages, I stand by my earlier post. I am aware of their niche role. This is not unusual as the A10s the Tornadoes, and the F4s are retained by certain air forces due to niche roles. As to the decision to employ the BVR on them ( even one on the Centre hardpoint which in my humble opinion is stupidity) is a last ditch stand of an AF which struggles to get enough platforms to comply with their needs. The Block 3 is delayed,they cannot get enough F16s from second hand market. The J10s in their current state are not suitable for A2G role. So we neither have a suitable platform nor do we have the money. This remains our dilemma rather than current ACM choice.
> A


Thank u for ur detailed reply.....again it was bajwas "advice" to IK which tilted the tables in sidhus favor. 
About the role of a dedicated ground strike ac my point was all go into the battle with top cover or when ariel threat is eliminated, so at most they a couple of wvr missles.
So if things become so desperate that we have to employ m 3/5 in a air suppority role, than in all probability we have lost the air battle n 3/5 would be shot down before they could get their gears up.
I did not want to say this earlier but its a پیسے بنا نے کی scheme ھے

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## araz

Reichmarshal said:


> Thank u for ur detailed reply.....again it was bajwas "advice" to IK which tilted the tables in sidhus favor.
> About the role of a dedicated ground strike ac my point was all go into the battle with top cover or when ariel threat is eliminated, so at most they a couple of wvr missles.
> So if things become so desperate that we have to employ m 3/5 in a air suppority role, than in all probability we have lost the air battle n 3/5 would be shot down before they could get their gears up.
> I did not want to say this earlier but its a پیسے بنا نے کی scheme ھے


Thank you for the update. Who do you think should have been the ACM in your opinion. Haseeb was too junior and the Indian incursion did not show him in very good light. So who else do you think was more deserving. To me at least he does not look very impressive in the ACM role but looks can sometimes be deceiving.
Re the M3/5 debate, I think you and I are still saying the same thing but from a slightly different angle. I fully agree that this is a last ditch attempt and only used in case other assetts are either occupied or unavailable due to attrition, sanctions, or too many fronts where platforms are needed. In those cases the A2G role M3/5s can be provided top cover by other M3/5s. This is why in my humble opinion there is talk of integrating BVRs. 
Regarding " Paisay bananay ki scheme" the J10 deal would have made him enough. Secondly the integration is done inhouse so the "paisay bananay ki scheme" angle does not sound logical at least to me. Perhaps you can enlighten us.
Kind regards.
A


----------



## mingle

PanzerKiel said:


> Recently heard rumors about Turkish Gokdogan missile being considered.


For Mirages or as for whole fleet



PanzerKiel said:


> Rumor is for old platforms... Just rumors you know.


Read on twitter that few mirages getting AESA along rewiring for BVRs


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## arslank03

mingle said:


> For Mirages or as for whole fleet
> 
> 
> Read on twitter that few mirages getting AESA along rewiring for BVRs




big fat heavy super doubt


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## WaqarAhmed161247

rgfegasrg said:


> big fat heavy super doubt


with less nos of Trms an aesa radar can be designed that could be fitted in mr3/5s, if yes then these old horses can again be converted into a lethal fighting tool ???


----------



## mingle

rgfegasrg said:


> big fat heavy super doubt


Read on twitter too @PanzerKiel can shed light further I hope it would go 2/2 combo

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## araz

WaqarAhmed161247 said:


> with less nos of Trms an aesa radar can be designed that could be fitted in mr3/5s, if yes then these old horses can again be converted into a lethal fighting tool ???


I doubt it. You would need hea y modifications to fit cooling system for AESA and I doubt you have the space for it. With local build AESAs technically possible but practically not viable in my humble opinion. Whatever you do the M3/5s are 50s design with its own limitations which can not be overcome. They are fine for their perceived niche role but anything more is asking too much.
A



Reichmarshal said:


> Again sidhu was as deserving a candidate to become the cas as bajwa was to become the coas.
> Sidhu had no role to play in the j10 deal.
> Mirages need to stick to their primarily role ie a2g. Any thing else n PAF is screwed.


Can you elaborate a bit more or do you want to leave it here. Whose deal was the J10 if not Sidhu's? Help appreciated
A

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## ghazi52

..,.,.,

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1550096734403043329

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## ghazi52

.,.,.,














President of the Turkish Grand National Assembly, Mr. Mustafa Şentop, President of the Azerbaijan National Assembly, Mr. Mistress Gafarova and Speaker of the National Assembly of Pakistan, Mr. Raza Pervez Eşref visited Özdemir Bayraktar National Technology Center.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

ghazi52 said:


> .,.,.,
> View attachment 863960
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 863961
> 
> 
> 
> President of the Turkish Grand National Assembly, Mr. Mustafa Şentop, President of the Azerbaijan National Assembly, Mr. Mistress Gafarova and Speaker of the National Assembly of Pakistan, Mr. Raza Pervez Eşref visited Özdemir Bayraktar National Technology Center.


It means Pak is after MIUS! Whenever the Pak dignitaries pose with a Turkish stuff it means they're after it....

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## ghazi52

Is this true?? ...
Recently procured Piper PA46-M600 Meridian of Pakistan Air Force..












.,.,



_The Garmin G3000 installation in the M600 is a tight but clean fit. Two GTC 570 touch controllers provide access to all flight deck functions, including FMS input, checklists (on their way), systems monitoring and control, and, of course, navigation and communications._

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## Great Janjua

ghazi52 said:


> Is this true?? ...
> Recently procured Piper PA46-M600 Meridian of Pakistan Air Force..
> 
> View attachment 864841
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 864843
> 
> 
> .,.,
> 
> 
> 
> _The Garmin G3000 installation in the M600 is a tight but clean fit. Two GTC 570 touch controllers provide access to all flight deck functions, including FMS input, checklists (on their way), systems monitoring and control, and, of course, navigation and communications._


Yeah but probably for VIP transport SMH.

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## mingle

Great Janjua said:


> Yeah but probably for VIP transport SMH.


Replacement of Y12 looks Cool


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## SQ8

mingle said:


> Replacement of Y12 looks Cool


That was the Phenom
This is likely a 1-off executive transport as a cheaper alternative to a Phenom



mingle said:


> For Mirages or as for whole fleet
> 
> 
> Read on twitter that few mirages getting AESA along rewiring for BVRs


in house AESA
Rose Mirages Grifo M + SD-10 combo isn’t working out as planned. So, they may be reworked to AESA + Gokdogan.

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## mingle

SQ8 said:


> That was the Phenom
> This is likely a 1-off executive transport as a cheaper alternative to a Phenom
> 
> 
> in house AESA
> Rose Mirages Grifo M + SD-10 combo isn’t working out as planned. So, they may be reworked to AESA + Gokdogan.


Yeh I read on twitter AESA & Gokdogan combo


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## Signalian

SQ8 said:


> That was the Phenom
> This is likely a 1-off executive transport as a cheaper alternative to a Phenom
> 
> 
> in house AESA
> Rose Mirages Grifo M + SD-10 combo isn’t working out as planned. So, they may be reworked to AESA + Gokdogan.


ROSE 1 have Grifo M3 with ranges in 40 km. AGAVE isnt installed on ROSE II and ROSE III, instead a FLIR is there AFAIK. AGAVE has range of 27 km in A2A mode, while a much larger range in A2G/Anti ship mode.

M3s seem to be the candidates for new missile and new radar.

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## SQ8

Signalian said:


> ROSE 1 have Grifo M3 with ranges in 40 km. AGAVE isnt installed on ROSE II and ROSE III, instead a FLIR is there AFAIK. AGAVE has range of 27 km in A2A mode, while a much larger range in A2G/Anti ship mode.
> 
> M3s seem to be the candidates for new missile and new radar.


Agreed - I meant the Rose-I since they are the only ones with the M.

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## Zephyrus

mingle said:


> Replacement of Y12 looks Cool


Those are the Beech King air,

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## TsAr

SQ8 said:


> That was the Phenom
> This is likely a 1-off executive transport as a cheaper alternative to a Phenom
> 
> 
> in house AESA
> Rose Mirages Grifo M + SD-10 combo isn’t working out as planned. So, they may be reworked to AESA + Gokdogan.


what's your take on this? Should PAF have taken this route.


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## araz

SQ8 said:


> Agreed - I meant the Rose-I since they are the only ones with the M.


I just fail to see the logic of it. What is the thinking behind this move? Please advise.
A


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## SQ8

TsAr said:


> what's your take on this? Should PAF have taken this route.


Considering that the country’s financial situation is going down rapidly - it really is the only choice available to keep some semblance of parity with the primary threat.

Moreover, Gokdogan also has a lot of growth available - so eventually as Pakistan diversifies from China in terms of air to air missiles and associated radar systems it will be more easier to make work.

Having the longest stick matters - for now that remains with Pakistan but for a few assets. Having Gokdogan for the Mirages means 40 odd additional BVRs but at the same time it opens up the idea of a local AESA and other kit on a JF-17 block 4 that breaks away from some current limitations on the platform.



araz said:


> I just fail to see the logic of it. What is the thinking behind this move? Please advise.
> A


Paucity of funds is the primary delivery but it enables assets which due to MRF still have good life in them to provide an additional BVR capability.

Think of the JF-17 being pushed to more offensive interdiction roles which leaves interception duties open. That can be taken up by the Mirage 3s as lobbing BVR weapons is sometimes sufficient to get an enemy strike element to ditch its ground weapons load to defend and scrub the mission.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

SQ8 said:


> Considering that the country’s financial situation is going down rapidly - it really is the only choice available to keep some semblance of parity with the primary threat.
> 
> Moreover, Gokdogan also has a lot of growth available - so eventually as Pakistan diversifies from China in terms of air to air missiles and associated radar systems it will be more easier to make work.
> 
> Having the longest stick matters - for now that remains with Pakistan but for a few assets. Having Gokdogan for the Mirages means 40 odd additional BVRs but at the same time it opens up the idea of a local AESA and other kit on a JF-17 block 4 that breaks away from some current limitations on the platform.
> 
> 
> Paucity of funds is the primary delivery but it enables assets which due to MRF still have good life in them to provide an additional BVR capability.
> 
> Think of the JF-17 being pushed to more offensive interdiction roles which leaves interception duties open. That can be taken up by the Mirage 3s as lobbing BVR weapons is sometimes sufficient to get an enemy strike element to ditch its ground weapons load to defend and scrub the mission.


I think the Turks might be more amenable to integrating their AAMs as well as radar-guided SOWs (e.g., Atmaca, Gokhan, etc) to Pakistan's in-house AESA radars. So, this approach could open the way for a local retrofit/upgrade program for the JF-17 Block-I and Block-II.

It might also lead to a proper, bottom-up learning process of how to integrate weapons to the JF-17. Yes, the JF-17 would be a 'strange new world' for the Turks, but at least they have the capacity to figure it out. Ideally, they'd help Pakistan build a comparable ability (via our private sector) so that we can actually take on meaningful work from other TAI projects down the line (thereby helping TAI free up its Turkish facilities, lower development costs by leveraging Pakistan's labor market, etc).

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## TsAr

SQ8 said:


> Considering that the country’s financial situation is going down rapidly - it really is the only choice available to keep some semblance of parity with the primary threat.
> 
> Moreover, Gokdogan also has a lot of growth available - so eventually as Pakistan diversifies from China in terms of air to air missiles and associated radar systems it will be more easier to make work.


I agree, more over it would be interesting to see if any TOT is involved.


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## Sayfullah

SQ8 said:


> in house AESA
> Rose Mirages Grifo M + SD-10 combo isn’t working out as planned. So, they may be reworked to AESA + Gokdogan.


Are mirage engines powerful enough for an aesa? If mirage 3 might get AESA and Gokdogan would it be worth it upgrading the engine as well?


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## SQ8

Jf-17 block 3 said:


> Are mirage engines powerful enough for an aesa? If mirage 3 might get AESA and Gokdogan would it be worth it upgrading the engine as well?


Engine power may not be the only metric there - but if it can support the Grifo M at 2KVQ it should be able to do a radar

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## mingle

SQ8 said:


> Engine power may not be the only metric there - but if it can support the Grifo M at 2KVQ it should be able to do a radar


I would love duel rack Gokdogan along two WRM like Aim9 2/2 combo would be a great for our mirages does we need cockpit renovation as well???


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## SQ8

mingle said:


> I would love duel rack Gokdogan along two WRM like Aim9 2/2 combo would be a great for our mirages does we need cockpit renovation as well???


It’s all speculation but it depends on the MFD controller and symbology generator as to what it can and cannot support.

However, keep in mind that Mirages have no place for complex wiring other than the centerline station.

This is the electric or rather mix systems/electric diagram for the Mirage IIIO which is the ROSE-I aircraft of PAF. That missile power from DC and specifically the controller from radar only goes to the centerline.
The PAF doesn’t actually rewire the whole stations because there may not be space to run the wiring and any altering of the spar structure or otherwise could structurally compromise the aircraft 

Atar 9c

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## Princeps Senatus

Sayfullah said:


> Are mirage engines powerful enough for an aesa? If mirage 3 might get AESA and Gokdogan would it be worth it upgrading the engine as well?


GaN based AESA would be more power efficient than what is currently installed

Reactions: Wow Wow:
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## araz

SQ8 said:


> It’s all speculation but it depends on the MFD controller and symbology generator as to what it can and cannot support.
> 
> However, keep in mind that Mirages have no place for complex wiring other than the centerline station.
> 
> This is the electric or rather mix systems/electric diagram for the Mirage IIIO which is the ROSE-I aircraft of PAF. That missile power from DC and specifically the controller from radar only goes to the centerline.
> The PAF doesn’t actually rewire the whole stations because there may not be space to run the wiring and any altering of the spar structure or otherwise could structurally compromise the aircraft
> 
> Atar 9c


A quick question. Did the South Africans do any work to alter the lack of wiring for the wings weapons bay. If so they might have wing designs and jigs which could be bought. I am just throwing it out there but these things are beyond my knowledge base. Help/ correction will be greatly appreciated. Another question is regarding how they will cool the AESA. Will there be enough space for installation of cooling equipment or will the AESA be Air cooled?
Regards
A


----------



## SQ8

araz said:


> A quick question. Did the South Africans do any work to alter the lack of wiring for the wings weapons bay. If so they might have wing designs and jigs which could be bought. I am just throwing it out there but these things are beyond my knowledge base. Help/ correction will be greatly appreciated. Another question is regarding how they will cool the AESA. Will there be enough space for installation of cooling equipment or will the AESA be Air cooled?
> Regards
> A


That I am not aware of but I don’t think the work with Denel went beyond integration of the Raptor.. @denel could tell more

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## HRK

araz said:


> A quick question. Did the South Africans do any work to alter the lack of wiring for the wings weapons bay. If so they might have wing designs and jigs which could be bought. I am just throwing it out there but these things are beyond my knowledge base. Help/ correction will be greatly appreciated. Another question is regarding how they will cool the AESA. Will there be enough space for installation of cooling equipment or will the AESA be Air cooled?
> Regards
> A


Their Cheetah Jet were capable to launch BVRs, and as per our SA member (forgetting his Forum handel) complete JIGs were available till few years back.

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## Gripen9

HRK said:


> Their Cheetah Jet were capable to launch BVRs, and as per our SA member (forgetting his Forum handel) complete JIGs were available till few years back.


Israelis not only wired the hardpoints to launch BVR/PGMs from those hardpoints, they added two extra HPs at wing roots capable of carrying lightening pod & PGMs for the Colombian Kfir upgrade.
Israeli Kfir & Denel Cheetah programmes were joined at the hip.

Something like this was quite possible had we not gone with Sagem for the Rose2/3 upgrade and instead worked with Denel.

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## EternalMortal

Is it not possible to convert the F7s & even older mirages into UAVs? Would freeing up the pilot‘s space would make them easier to upgrade?


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## SQ8

Gripen9 said:


> Israelis not only wired the hardpoints to launch BVR/PGMs from those hardpoints, they added two extra HPs at wing roots capable of carrying lightening pod & PGMs for the Colombian Kfir upgrade.
> Israeli Kfir & Denel Cheetah programmes were joined at the hip.
> 
> Something like this was quite possible had we not gone with Sagem for the *Rose2/3 upgrade and instead worked with Denel.*
> 
> View attachment 865487
> 
> 
> View attachment 865488


Cue the kickback rumors

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## Gripen9

SQ8 said:


> Cue the kickback rumors


Same theme over an over again unfortunately

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

SQ8 said:


> Cue the kickback rumors


tbh at some point, I'm not sure if that's worse than the alternative explanation, "we know what we're doing, you don't, get lost."

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## Signalian

Till now JFT and J-10 are not good enough reasons to retire Mirages instead more money will be poured to upgrade them, they should be in reserve now. Necessary upgrades on JFT and down the line on J-10 should have been priority when looking into the future.

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## arslank03

Signalian said:


> Till now JFT and J-10 are not good enough reasons to retire Mirages instead more money will be poured to upgrade them, they should be in reserve now. Necessary upgrades on JFT and down the line on J-10 should have been priority when looking into the future.



Im very, very skeptical about this upgrade. Perhaps they MAY get an AESA, but that could very well be for a ground attack. Think SAR/GMTI stuff, potentially better anti-shipping capabilities too, like how the Indians put an AESA on their Jaguars. With regards to a BVRAAM, this, i am very, very skeptical about. an AAM install. Only the centreline hardpoint can carry missiles like that, making the capability basically useless for that case scenario. The talk of re wiring them could be an option but it will be such an expensive and extensive option that its silly to me, it makes basically zero sense to me to invest to much into these old airframes. What could be of interest is that if we are getting new radars for ground attack/Anti Shipping, could we see them recieve a datalink, to then ditch the dedicated datalink pods which have to be carried by a second mirage, thus doubling the amount of aircraft we have available for strike missions. This seems a little more likely of the already unlikely scenario, if we were to do this, adding an AESA/TDL for ground strike makes the most sense, as opposed to those+ re wiring for ARH AAMs.

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## Gripen9



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## Tomcats

EternalMortal said:


> Is it not possible to convert the F7s & even older mirages into UAVs? Would freeing up the pilot‘s space would make them easier to upgrade?


Well, China is known to have converted its J-6 Fighters to drones so there is a possibility that the F-7 could be but I'm not too sure about that.

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## Pakistan Ka Beta

PAKISTAN AIR FORCE ACQUIRES AIRBUS A319 | July 2022 .​


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1549662486302949376



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1549361640335761408




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1549361651605962752





__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1549472200037736449

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## Talon

Signalian said:


> they should be in reserve now..


They will be flying for *atleast *next 5-6 years

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## HRK

Gripen9 said:


> Israelis not only wired the hardpoints to launch BVR/PGMs from those hardpoints, they added two extra HPs at wing roots capable of carrying lightening pod & PGMs for the Colombian Kfir upgrade.
> Israeli Kfir & Denel Cheetah programmes were joined at the hip.
> 
> Something like this was quite possible had we not gone with Sagem for the Rose2/3 upgrade and instead worked with Denel.
> 
> View attachment 865487
> 
> 
> View attachment 865488


yaap kafir was more advanced version.

On the other hand If I am not wrong Denel studied a delta wing design for their Cheetah Jet with additional hard point on wingtips but that design was not adopted for some reason


----------



## Signalian

Talon said:


> They will be flying for *atleast *next 5-6 years


Its PAF right ? Mirages will mark 100 years of flying.


----------



## HRK

Signalian said:


> Its PAF right ? Mirages will mark 100 years of flying.


may be Mirage fleet would complete 60 year of service, currently I think it has crossed 52 or 53 years of service in PAF.

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## Talon

Signalian said:


> Its PAF right ? Mirages will mark 100 years of flying.


Majbori hy bhai

Even after 6 years (if they retire) they will be retired only because of lack of spares and upgrades because I don't see any replacement platform in coming years.

PAF is more focused on handling viper replacement issue as per my observation

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## Pakistan Ka Beta

*INVESTITURE CEREMONY HELD AT AIR HEADQUARTERS .*



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1552641846521757696



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1552643144310980608



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1552643330110013440


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1552646105833291782


















DGPR (AIR FORCE) on Instagram: "INVESTITURE CEREMONY HELD AT AIR HEADQUARTERS 28 July, 2022: Non Operational Military awards were conferred upon Officers and Junior Commissioned Officers of Pakistan Air Force in recognition of their distinguished se


DGPR (AIR FORCE) shared a post on Instagram: "INVESTITURE CEREMONY HELD AT AIR HEADQUARTERS 28 July, 2022: Non Operational Military awards were conferred upon Officers and Junior Commissioned Officers of Pakistan Air Force in recognition of their distinguished services during an Investiture...




www.instagram.com

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## Pakistan Ka Beta

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1552621462250573825


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1551599647277342721

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1552711417609986049


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1553048114113654784



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1553052838904881153




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1552678180603002883

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## Pakistan Ka Beta

PAF RELIEF OPERATION CONTINUES IN FLOOD AFFECTED AREAS OF BALOCHISTAN .​



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1553322976002641920




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1553323336968687617



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1553327187591417859





















DGPR (AIR FORCE) on Instagram: "PAF RELIEF OPERATION CONTINUES IN FLOOD AFFECTED AREAS OF BALOCHISTAN 30 July, 2022: On the special instructions of Air Chief Marshal Zaheer Ahmed Baber Sidhu, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force, PAF personn


DGPR (AIR FORCE) shared a post on Instagram: "PAF RELIEF OPERATION CONTINUES IN FLOOD AFFECTED AREAS OF BALOCHISTAN 30 July, 2022: On the special instructions of Air Chief Marshal Zaheer Ahmed Baber Sidhu, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force, PAF personnel and helicopter fleet are...




www.instagram.com

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## ghazi52



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## Pakistan Ka Beta

*01 August, 2022: Pakistan Air Force is actively participating in rescue and relief operations in flood affected areas of Balochistan*



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1554053537197305856



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1554053824666484736





__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1554054398191407104



















DGPR (AIR FORCE) on Instagram: "PAF RELIEF OPERATIONS CONTINUE IN FLOOD AFFECTED AREAS OF BALOCHISTAN 01 August, 2022: Pakistan Air Force is actively participating in rescue and relief operations in flood affected areas of Balochistan. During the o


DGPR (AIR FORCE) shared a post on Instagram: "PAF RELIEF OPERATIONS CONTINUE IN FLOOD AFFECTED AREAS OF BALOCHISTAN 01 August, 2022: Pakistan Air Force is actively participating in rescue and relief operations in flood affected areas of Balochistan. During the operations, PAF helicopter fleet...




www.instagram.com








A Public Service Message by Pakistan Air Force​

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## Windjammer

Royal Air Force C-17 Globe master III arriving in Islamabad yesterday.

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## Windjammer



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## ghazi52

.,....

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1555191108971515904
.,.,.,

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

The logistical capacity of Ground support need to improve , always lot of load on existing minimum resources during Natural Disaster

+ Need Mobile Hospital C130 
+ Need enhanced C130 (Or Similar 12 units)
+ Need more Helicopters


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## ghazi52

.,.,

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1555499140406280192

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## Pakistan Ka Beta

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1555491187154423809



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1555492156642664448


COMMANDER DEFENCE FORCES OF HUNGARY CALLS ON AIR CHIEF​
















Login • Instagram


Welcome back to Instagram. Sign in to check out what your friends, family & interests have been capturing & sharing around the world.




www.instagram.com

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## ghazi52

.,.,

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## Pakistan Ka Beta

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1558094322188394501



































__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1112599039343555

















DGPR (AIR FORCE) on Instagram‎: "پاک فضائیہ کا یومِ آزادی کی مناسبت سے ملی نغمہ جاری 13 اگست، 2022: پاک فضائیہ کے شعبہ تعلقات عامہ نے پاکستان کے 75ویں یومِ آزادی کی مناسبت سے ملی نغمہ جاری کیا ہے۔ نغمے میں پاک فضائیہ کے بہادر شاہینوں کو خراج تحسین پ


DGPR (AIR FORCE) shared a post on Instagram: "‎پاک فضائیہ کا یومِ آزادی کی مناسبت سے ملی نغمہ جاری 13 اگست، 2022: پاک فضائیہ کے شعبہ تعلقات عامہ نے پاکستان کے 75ویں یومِ آزادی کی مناسبت سے ملی نغمہ جاری کیا ہے۔ نغمے میں پاک فضائیہ کے بہادر شاہینوں کو خراج تحسین پیش کیا گیا ہے جو دفاع وطن کے لیے...




www.instagram.com

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## ghazi52

Happy Independence day..

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## ghazi52

.,,.

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## ghazi52

.,.,

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## alikazmi007

Conqueror said:


> When your airforce cannot produce their own logo in Corel Draw properly...
> 
> View attachment 870651



seriously, you have way too much free time on your hands, we need you to put to awesome analytic skills to better use.

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## MastanKhan

Conqueror said:


> When your airforce cannot produce their own logo in Corel Draw properly...
> 
> View attachment 870651



Son,

The name reads 'AIR FORCE'---not some logo manufacturing company. It is a 'fighting force'.

Even with a 'bad' logo---it will kill as good as it would with the 'right' logo.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1558844646129901569


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## ghazi52

.,.,
The Pakistan Air Force showcased its latest defence procurements in a video released on the occasion of Pakistan's 75th Independence Day. 
- Akinci UCAV 
- Bayraktar TB2 UCAV 
- HQ-9B 
- TPS-77 MMR
- J-10CE

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## Conqueror

MastanKhan said:


> Son,
> 
> The named reads 'AIR FORCE'---no some logo manufacturing company. It is a 'fighting force'.
> 
> Even with a 'bad' logo---it will kill as good as it would with the 'right' logo.


Evey job is important and the ones that represent your image before the world are more valuable. PAF is a great institution but let them see where they need to be better.

There is no prode in looking phoney.

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## MastanKhan

Conqueror said:


> Evey job is important and the ones that represent your image before the world are more valuable. PAF is a great institution but let them see where they need to be better.
> 
> There is no prode in looking phoney.


Hi,

You sound very inexperienced.

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## fatman17

*



*

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## Conqueror

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> You sound very inexperienced.



I really don't know how to sound experienced sir, and I don't think one can learn it before it's time. But if you've got a few tips, I gratefully request for them.


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## ghazi52

.,.
Seven PAF officers promoted to rank of Air Vice Marshal​Promoted officers include Air Vice Marshal Farooq Zamir, Air Vice Marshal Aurangzeb Ahmed and others

APP
August 15, 2022






The promoted Air Officers included Air Vice Marshal Farooq Zamir Afridi, Air Vice Marshal Aurangzeb Ahmed, Air Vice Marshal Taimur Iqbal, Air Vice Marshal Hakim Raza, Air Vice Marshal Tariq Mahmood Ghazi, Air Vice Marshal Mohsin Mahmood and Air Vice Marshal Tahir Mahmood.










Seven PAF officers promoted to rank of Air Vice Marshal | The Express Tribune


Promoted officers include Air Vice Marshal Farooq Zamir, Air Vice Marshal Aurangzeb Ahmed and others




tribune.com.pk

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## ghazi52

..,
Ambassador of the United States to Pakistan, Mr. Donald Blome arrived at AHQ to meet with the Chief of Air Staff of the Pakistan Air Force, Air Chief Marshal Zaheer Ahmad Babar. During the meeting enhanced bilateral & defence cooperation was discussed.

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## Yasser76

Definately will not be surprised if a few Sqds of used F-16s are in the pipeline, relations with US have improved, COAS will visit DC soon, we got US approval for C-130 transfer recently and currently many European F-16 users are taking on board more and more F-35s (Denmark, Netherlands, Norway, Belgium) so will be spares around. My gut feeling is we will try for Dutch/Belgium Vipers as these are close to PAF MLU standard

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Yasser76 said:


> Definately will not be surprised if a few Sqds of used F-16s are in the pipeline, relations with US have improved, COAS will visit DC soon, we got US approval for C-130 transfer recently and currently many European F-16 users are taking on board more and more F-35s (Denmark, Netherlands, Norway, Belgium) so will be spares around. My gut feeling is we will try for Dutch/Belgium Vipers as these are close to PAF MLU standard


It'd be awesome if the PAF could get the stored Block-25s/32s. The engines and airframes are basically the same as our Block-52s, so we can support them. But we can also tap into LM's 6,000-hour SLEP and, optionally, the F-16V or even the ÖZGÜR upgrades. TAI can carry out the ÖZGÜR to the Block-25/32 as it has the source codes. This could finally unlock our F-16s for the SOW role via the SOM and ATMACA.

That said, it's starting to seem that the F-16A/Bs have a lot more life them than the stated recommendations. Top Air is picking up Israeli F-16A/Bs and upgrading them (reportedly with AESA radars et.al). If a private company thinks investing in new electronics for these birds is worth it, then I think the Block-15s can keep up for a while, even without another SLEP (beyond Falcon UP/STAR).

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## ghazi52

..,..
Combat & Aviation History Of Pakistan​
PLAAF personnel (possibly armours) checking AIM-9L/M test missiles (inert), Chengdu F-7PG from No # 17 Sqn #Tigers in the background. Looks like a brief from #PAF armours.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1558844646129901569


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## Yasser76

ghazi52 said:


> ..,..
> Combat & Aviation History Of Pakistan​
> PLAAF personnel (possibly armours) checking AIM-9L/M test missiles (inert), Chengdu F-7PG from No # 17 Sqn #Tigers in the background. Looks like a brief from #PAF armours.
> 
> View attachment 871434



This is bad PR by PAF.


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## mingle

Yasser76 said:


> Definately will not be surprised if a few Sqds of used F-16s are in the pipeline, relations with US have improved, COAS will visit DC soon, we got US approval for C-130 transfer recently and currently many European F-16 users are taking on board more and more F-35s (Denmark, Netherlands, Norway, Belgium) so will be spares around. My gut feeling is we will try for Dutch/Belgium Vipers as these are close to PAF MLU standard


There are alot Airframes available now both in EU & US herself PAF should seize this opportunity and get as many as they can & get upgrade package V standards yes I feel they are coming

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## ghazi52

PAC Kamra...

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## truthseeker2010

Yasser76 said:


> Definately will not be surprised if a few Sqds of used F-16s are in the pipeline, relations with US have improved, COAS will visit DC soon, we got US approval for C-130 transfer recently and currently many European F-16 users are taking on board more and more F-35s (Denmark, Netherlands, Norway, Belgium) so will be spares around. My gut feeling is we will try for Dutch/Belgium Vipers as these are close to PAF MLU standard



Most of the euro f 16s are quiet used up and rusty due to North Sea/Atlantic. They were up for offer before as well but paf declined due to condition and hours remaining on them.


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## fatman17



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## Yasser76

truthseeker2010 said:


> Most of the euro f 16s are quiet used up and rusty due to North Sea/Atlantic. They were up for offer before as well but paf declined due to condition and hours remaining on them.



Not what I have heard, and in fact these birds are highly sought after. Belgium and Ntherlands actuakky stored many of their Vipers for years due to budget cuts and pilot shortages. Do you have a source? As far as I know PAF chased these birds but US blocked it

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## ghazi52

.,.,
Another picture of JF-17 Thunder Block-3 serial 3P05 

~ 3 = Block-3
~ 05 = 5th airframe of B-3
~ Year of manufacturing is definitely 2022.

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## ghazi52

.,.
Today we remember the supreme sacrifice of Pilot officer Rashid Minhas Shaheed Nishan-e-Haider (NH) in the line of duty. Pilot officer Rashid Minhas lived up to the great traditions of Pakistan Air Force by serving the motherland.
@DGPR_PAF

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## ghazi52

,.,.,.
20th August the martyrdom anniversary of Pakistan's national hero, Rashid Minhas Shaheed.






Pilot Officer Rashid Minhas Shaheed, Nishan-e-Haider (7th from both Left and Right side of 2nd row) attending a course at Aero Medical Institute, Masroor Base, Karachi. Date of group photograph is 27th March 1971. Late Wing Commander Dr S.M. Akbar was Officer Commanding AMI ( Aero Medical Institute)
Photo Courtesy : Taqi Akbar

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Got this image from a reputed PAF site, nice PS Hybrid aircraft.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Yasser76 said:


> Not what I have heard, and in fact these birds are highly sought after. Belgium and Ntherlands actuakky stored many of their Vipers for years due to budget cuts and pilot shortages. Do you have a source? As far as I know PAF chased these birds but US blocked it


Agreed, the Norwegian F-16s at least have around 1,500 to 2,500 hours left on average. 

However, that's the figure based on the OEM's recommendations. The fact that Top Air is picking up Israeli F-16A/Bs and upgrading them suggests to me the F-16A/Bs can keep going for a while after that.









Romania to Buy Norwegian F-16s, Romania - Issuu


Romania cannot afford to buy the state-of-the-art 5th generation Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II. Instead, 32 Lockheed Martin F-16 Fighting Falcon aircraft will be bought second-hand from Norway, Romanian defense minister Vasile Dîncu unveiled in an interview given to Romanian TV channel...




issuu.com

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## Michel Niesten

Dutch F-16’s have been sold recently to Draken, a US company that will use them for adversary training. Portugese and Norwegian ones have been sold to Romania. So there’s plenty life left in them. But, as others said, the US can still block European countries from selling them to certain countries (unfortunately Pakistan in this case).

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Michel Niesten said:


> Dutch F-16’s have been sold recently to Draken, a US company that will use them for adversary training. Portugese and Norwegian ones have been sold to Romania. So there’s plenty life left in them. But, as others said, the US can still block European countries from selling them to certain countries (unfortunately Pakistan in this case).


Exactly. I'm sure if the doors were open to Pakistan, it would've gone after the Dutch, Norwegian, Belgian, etc F-16s as well as any Block-25s and Block-32s sitting in Arizona. In fact, when Bush lifted the F-16 ban back in 2003, the general expectation was that the PAF would swell its F-16 fleet with used airframes just as it had with the Mirage III/5s. I mean, it'd just make sense...

...and if the PAF isn't doing it, then there's an outside blocker.

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## PakFactor

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Exactly. I'm sure if the doors were open to Pakistan, it would've gone after the Dutch, Norwegian, Belgian, etc F-16s as well as any Block-25s and Block-32s sitting in Arizona. In fact, when Bush lifted the F-16 ban back in 2003, the general expectation was that the PAF would swell its F-16 fleet with used airframes just as it had with the Mirage III/5s. I mean, it'd just make sense...
> 
> ...and if the PAF isn't doing it, then there's an outside blocker.



Or there is no need due to J-10?
Could be that PAF felt what we took during Bush Era is temporary fill gap until the Chinese cards are in order.


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## kursed

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Exactly. I'm sure if the doors were open to Pakistan, it would've gone after the Dutch, Norwegian, Belgian, etc F-16s as well as any Block-25s and Block-32s sitting in Arizona. In fact, when Bush lifted the F-16 ban back in 2003, the general expectation was that the PAF would swell its F-16 fleet with used airframes just as it had with the Mirage III/5s. I mean, it'd just make sense...
> 
> ...and if the PAF isn't doing it, then there's an outside blocker.


Not for the lack of trying, PAF's attempts were rebuffed.

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## SABRE

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Exactly. I'm sure if the doors were open to Pakistan, it would've gone after the Dutch, Norwegian, Belgian, etc F-16s as well as any Block-25s and Block-32s sitting in Arizona. *In fact, when Bush lifted the F-16 ban back in 2003, the general expectation was that the PAF would swell its F-16 fleet *with used airframes just as it had with the Mirage III/5s. I mean, it'd just make sense...
> 
> ...*and if the PAF isn't doing it, then there's an outside blocker*.



My impression is that the PAF wanted to bring the fleet to *minimum* 110 (though I think it may have been revised to 150). 110 was the quantity of A-8 aircraft that the PAF had wanted to procure during ZAB era, and the demand then switched over to F-16s during the Soviet-Afghan War. If I am remembering correctly, Peacegate 1, 2, 3, & 4 amounted to 110 F-16s in the end.

Outside blockers have always been there but Pakistan previously had managed to circumvent them during Reagan and GW Bush presidencies. Problem today is Pakistan's inability to sustain the US interest in the Pakistani state, particularly the security apparatus.


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## Ali_Baba

kursed said:


> Not for the lack of trying, PAF's attempts were rebuffed.



And yet - the "neutrals" always bend over at the drop of a hat - the perversion of this relationship is simply not understandable ..


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

SABRE said:


> My impression is that the PAF wanted to bring the fleet to *minimum* 110 (though I think it may have been revised to 150). 110 was the quantity of A-8 aircraft that the PAF had wanted to procure during ZAB era, and the demand then switched over to F-16s during the Soviet-Afghan War. If I am remembering correctly, Peacegate 1, 2, 3, & 4 amounted to 110 F-16s in the end.
> 
> Outside blockers have always been there but Pakistan previously had managed to circumvent them during Reagan and GW Bush presidencies. Problem today is Pakistan's inability to sustain the US interest in the Pakistani state, particularly the security apparatus.


Back in 1998 or 1999, Flight International reported that the PAF wanted to get another 50 F-16s on top of the Peace Gate III/IV order. This report was part of a Flight International interview with then PAF CAS, ACM Qureishi. So, it was probably true.

IMO, had things gone the way the PAF had intended, the PAF would've been one of the world's biggest F-16 operators -- i.e., at least 150 aircraft by the mid-2000s.

Remember, in the 1980s and 1990s, there wasn't a fighter deal better anywhere on the market than the F-16. When it came to the cost, capability, support base, etc, the F-16 was at the top. So, for the PAF, it made total sense to work the F-16 into its mainstay multirole fighter. In other words, the F-16 was supposed to make up the majority of the PAF fleet.

In fact, when you read into the PAF history from the late 1970s and early 1980s, you'd see two distinct requirements:

1. a mainstay multirole fighter
2. a strike/attack fighter

In the late 1970s, the PAF kicked off the 'attack fighter' requirement by asking for 110 A-7s from the U.S. This got canned due to the U.S. not wanting to inadvertently give us a delivery capability for nukes. Then in the 1980s, the PAF switched gears to fill the multirole fighter requirement, and it asked for the F-16 or F-18L. But after it got the F-16, it re-visited the attack fighter requirement and, in turn, checked out the Jaguar (but couldn't afford it, so we went with the Q-5).

This is just my opinion, but if the PAF had completed its F-16 program according to plan, then it would've sought the Tornado. It was a strike-optimized system similar to the A-7, but more modern. I mean, the pairing of 150+ F-16s and 80 Tornados (a few new, but the bulk second-hand) would've been 👌 That basically would have been our fleet to this day and right until we get an NGFA.

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## ghazi52

,.,.

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## MastanKhan

Yasser76 said:


> Definately will not be surprised if a few Sqds of used F-16s are in the pipeline, relations with US have improved, COAS will visit DC soon, we got US approval for C-130 transfer recently and currently many European F-16 users are taking on board more and more F-35s (Denmark, Netherlands, Norway, Belgium) so will be spares around. My gut feeling is we will try for* Dutch/Belgium Vipers* as these are close to PAF MLU standard


Hi,

Possibly not---. Those aircraft may have too much salt damage due to flying over the ocean

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## fatman17

PAF Relief Ops



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Exactly. I'm sure if the doors were open to Pakistan, it would've gone after the Dutch, Norwegian, Belgian, etc F-16s as well as any Block-25s and Block-32s sitting in Arizona. In fact, when Bush lifted the F-16 ban back in 2003, the general expectation was that the PAF would swell its F-16 fleet with used airframes just as it had with the Mirage III/5s. I mean, it'd just make sense...
> 
> ...and if the PAF isn't doing it, then there's an outside blocker.


The blocker is the US Congress.

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## fatman17

JF17 block 3

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## Pakistan Ka Beta

PAKISTAN AIR FORCE IS ASSISTING CIVIL ADMINISTRATION IN FLOOD RELIEF AND RESCUE EFFORTS​























GRADUATION CEREMONY OF NO 56 COMBAT COMMANDERS’ COURSE HELD​










__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1562464253260726272




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1562464758141333506

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## CSAW

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1563836383273394176

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1563827692167913472

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1563875133894320135

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1563891255532191753

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## fatman17

22-111?


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## Ghessan

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 874623
> 
> 22-111?


to me it look like 22-114, who knows.

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## araz

Ghessan said:


> to me it look like 22-114, who knows.


It is too hazy to tell. Knowing delivery schedule the last time, PAF may well get 6 more this time as well. If we are getting 36 this will mean 6 lots of 6s.
A

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## fatman17

araz said:


> It is too hazy to tell. Knowing delivery schedule the last time, PAF may well get 6 more this time as well. If we are getting 36 this will mean 6 lots of 6s.
> A


The 2nd lot likely to be based at Masroor for Maritime Strike.

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## Ghessan

araz said:


> It is too hazy to tell. Knowing delivery schedule the last time, PAF may well get 6 more this time as well. If we are getting 36 this will mean 6 lots of 6s.
> A


Someone posted a picture of 22-111 with previous camo and if it was not a fake picture then what does it mean? 
How many are in this upcoming lot of both paint jobs?


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## ghazi52

.,..

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## Pakistan Ka Beta

PAF Humanitarian Assistance and Disaster Relief Campaign Ramped Up in Flood Affected Areas​









DGPR (AIR FORCE) on Instagram: "PAF EXPANDS RESCUE OPERATIONS IN KPK 30 August, 2022: Pakistan Air Force has expanded rescue operations in KPK in addition to the ongoing relief and rehabilitation operation in flood affected areas of Balochistan, Sin


DGPR (AIR FORCE) shared a post on Instagram: "PAF EXPANDS RESCUE OPERATIONS IN KPK 30 August, 2022: Pakistan Air Force has expanded rescue operations in KPK in addition to the ongoing relief and rehabilitation operation in flood affected areas of Balochistan, Sindh and South Punjab. 800 persons...




www.instagram.com



















__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1564238846186889218


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1564461555433050112



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1564462626385629185

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## ghazi52

.,.,






24/7 Back-to-back sorties Search & Rescue Ops are being run by the Pakistan Air force.
Keep your aviators in prayers as well.

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## fatman17

Pakistan's 'Most Capable' Chinese-Origin J-10C Fighter Jet Gets Mirage-V-Like 'Green-Blue' Camouflage Scheme


Pakistan's Chinese-origin J-10C fighter jets have been photographed in a camouflage/paint scheme similar to its French-made Mirage V jets.




eurasiantimes.com





New livery for J10CP

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## fatman17

fatman17 said:


> Pakistan's 'Most Capable' Chinese-Origin J-10C Fighter Jet Gets Mirage-V-Like 'Green-Blue' Camouflage Scheme
> 
> 
> Pakistan's Chinese-origin J-10C fighter jets have been photographed in a camouflage/paint scheme similar to its French-made Mirage V jets.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> eurasiantimes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New livery for J10CP


Why anger bro 😕

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## Ali_Baba

Interesting - given the wide use of Chinese AAM's in the PAF : https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...ingly-impressive-air-to-air-missile-inventory

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## Gripen9

ghazi52 said:


> .,.,
> View attachment 875145
> 
> 
> 
> 24/7 Back-to-back sorties Search & Rescue Ops are being run by the Pakistan Air force.
> Keep your aviators in prayers as well.


May Allah keep them safe as they risk all ... 
Ameen

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## fatman17

Air battle 2nd September 1965

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## fatman17

Air battle 4th September 1965

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## fatman17

Flying heroes, their machines to be honoured on Defence Day


Wing Commander Abhinandan’s uniform and remains of his MiG 21 among articles on display as war trophies.



www.dawn.com

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## ghazi52

.,.,
PAF CONDUCTS RELIEF OPERATIONS IN FLOOD AFFECTED AREAS OF KPK, SINDH, BALOCHISTAN AND SOUTH PUNJAB

Keeping the tradition of serving the nation during natural calamities, Pakistan Air Force has come to the succour of flood affected families of KPK, Sindh, Balochistan and South Punjab. PAF Bases are actively participating in relief operations in Rojhan, Fazilpur, Thul, Rajanpur, Risalpur, Hayatabad, Talhar, Mirpur Khas, Saeedabad, Nawabshah, Uch, Umer Khoso, Alipur, Dodapur, Sukkur, Sehwan, Jamshoro, Qillla Abdullah and Nowshera Kallan.

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## Trailer23

PAF Special on BOL TV.





​*Note:* Block 52 of No. 5 Squadron taxing at PAF Base Mushaf at *29:14*

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## fatman17



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## fatman17

PAKISTAN – F-16 CASE FOR SUSTAINMENT​PDF Version
Press Release - Pakistan 22-07 CN.pdf
Media/Public Contact
pm-cpa@state.gov
Transmittal No
22-07
WASHINGTON, September 7, 2022 - The State Department has made a determination approving a possible Foreign Military Sale to the Government of Pakistan of F-16 Case for Sustainment and related equipment for an estimated cost of $450 million. The Defense Security Cooperation Agency delivered the required certification notifying Congress of this possible sale today.
The Government of Pakistan has requested to consolidate prior F-16 sustainment and support cases to support the Pakistan Air Force F-16 fleet by reducing duplicate case activities and adding additional continued support elements. Included are U.S. Government and contractor engineering, technical, and logistics services for follow-on support of Pakistan’s F-16 fleet to include:

Participation in F-16 Aircraft Structural Integrity Program
Electronic Combat International Security Assistance Program
International Engine Management Program
Engine Component Improvement Program, and other technical coordination groups
Aircraft and engine hardware and software modifications and support
Aircraft and engine spare repair/return parts
Accessories and support equipment
Classified and unclassified software and software support
Publications, manuals, and technical documentation
Precision measurement, calibration, lab equipment, and technical support services
Studies and surveys
Other related elements of aircraft maintenance and program support.
The proposed sale does not include any new capabilities, weapons, or munitions.
The estimated total cost is $450 million.
This proposed sale will support the foreign policy and national security objectives of the United States by allowing Pakistan to retain interoperability with U.S. and partner forces in ongoing counterterrorism efforts and in preparation for future contingency operations.
The proposed sale will continue the sustainment of Pakistan’s F-16 fleet, which greatly improves Pakistan’s ability to support counterterrorism operations through its robust air-to-ground capability. Pakistan will have no difficulty absorbing these articles and services into its armed forces.
The proposed sale of this equipment and support will not alter the basic military balance in the region.
The principal contractor will be Lockheed Martin Corporation, Fort Worth, TX. There are no known offsets proposed in conjunction with this sale.
Implementation of this proposed sale will not require the assignment of any additional U.S. Government or contractor representatives to Pakistan.
There will be no adverse impact on U.S. defense readiness as a result of this proposed sale.
This notice of a potential sale is required by law. The description and dollar value is for the highest estimated quantity and dollar value based on initial requirements. Actual dollar value will be lower depending on final requirements, budget authority, and signed sales agreement(s), if and when concluded.

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## fatman17

A-Cdr Nosey Haider

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## Ghessan

fatman17 said:


> A-Cdr Nosey Haider



lets hope this interview happen, wonder what he is going to spill.

people of this country have mud sling the heroes, 

and we have seen invisibles hiding behind the tombs of Shuhada ...

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## fatman17

New Pakistan-bound J-10s carry maritime-strike camouflage​by Akhil Kadidal








A new batch of Chengdu J-10CEs being built for the Pakistan Air Force have been seen with camouflage livery. The colours are similar to the PAF's maritime strike-capable Mirage 5s. (Noel Celis/AFP)
A new batch of J-10CE fighter jets being manufactured by the Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group for the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) have been seen with tactical camouflage colours. This suggests that the aircraft may be used in the low-level maritime strike role.
Imagery of the latest batch of J-10CEs under construction in China shows that the aircraft carry a green-gray camouflage scheme with sky blue undersides. The livery is a departure from the J-10's standard colour scheme of low-visibility gray. At least two separate J-10s have been photographed with this camouflage scheme, according to images, which have appeared on Weibo.
_Janes _assesses that the camouflage pattern is similar to the colour scheme employed by the PAF's Mirage 5PA fleet. These aircraft are tasked with low-level maritime attack duties.
The PAF's Mirage III/5 fleet of 177 aircraft comprises the PAF's only force capable of launching stand-off weapons. This includes the MBDA AM39 Exocet air-launched anti-ship missile, which is fielded by the PAF's Mirage 5PA3 fleet. These aircraft are operated by the PAF's No 8 Squadron at Masroor air force base, near Karachi.
The Mirages are also capable of launching Pakistan's Ra'ad and Ra'ad IIair-launched cruise missiles (ALCM), which have ranges of 350 km and 550 km respectively, according to _Janes _data.


----------



## -=virus=-

fatman17 said:


> New Pakistan-bound J-10s carry maritime-strike camouflage​by Akhil Kadidal
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A new batch of Chengdu J-10CEs being built for the Pakistan Air Force have been seen with camouflage livery. The colours are similar to the PAF's maritime strike-capable Mirage 5s. (Noel Celis/AFP)
> A new batch of J-10CE fighter jets being manufactured by the Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group for the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) have been seen with tactical camouflage colours. This suggests that the aircraft may be used in the low-level maritime strike role.
> Imagery of the latest batch of J-10CEs under construction in China shows that the aircraft carry a green-gray camouflage scheme with sky blue undersides. The livery is a departure from the J-10's standard colour scheme of low-visibility gray. At least two separate J-10s have been photographed with this camouflage scheme, according to images, which have appeared on Weibo.
> _Janes _assesses that the camouflage pattern is similar to the colour scheme employed by the PAF's Mirage 5PA fleet. These aircraft are tasked with low-level maritime attack duties.
> The PAF's Mirage III/5 fleet of 177 aircraft comprises the PAF's only force capable of launching stand-off weapons. This includes the MBDA AM39 Exocet air-launched anti-ship missile, which is fielded by the PAF's Mirage 5PA3 fleet. These aircraft are operated by the PAF's No 8 Squadron at Masroor air force base, near Karachi.
> The Mirages are also capable of launching Pakistan's Ra'ad and Ra'ad IIair-launched cruise missiles (ALCM), which have ranges of 350 km and 550 km respectively, according to _Janes _data.


pics ?


----------



## fatman17

-=virus=- said:


> pics ?


Something happens to the pics when you download from this site

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## Ghessan

fatman17 said:


> Something happens to the pics when you download from this site
> View attachment 877342


every time i look it, it is 22-114 to me

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## ghazi52

.,.,

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1568235642940805120


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## ghazi52

.,.,.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1567491760061833216

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## Sayfullah

fatman17 said:


> Something happens to the pics when you download from this site
> View attachment 877342


Tbh, I kinda like the camo. Its unique.
Idk why people hate it, I think it looks 😍.

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## Pakistan Ka Beta

PAF contribution in 1965 war​








PAF RELIEF OPERATIONS CONTINUE IN FLOOD HIT AREAS OF KPK, SINDH, BALOCHISTAN AND SOUTH PUNJAB​

































Radio Pakistan News on Instagram: "Pakistan Air Force is fully committed and determined to defend the aerial frontiers of motherland against any external aggression with full force. This was echoed by PAF serving and retired officers during a specia


Radio Pakistan News shared a post on Instagram: "Pakistan Air Force is fully committed and determined to defend the aerial frontiers of motherland against any external aggression with full force. This was echoed by PAF serving and retired officers during a special transmission of News and...




www.instagram.com

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## ghazi52

,.,.,.

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## fatman17

1965 short documentary


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## fatman17

12 SEPTEMBER 2022

US proposes sale to sustain Pakistan F-16s​by Akhil Kadidal









If approved, the US Department of State's newly proposed sustainment sale will enable Pakistan's F-16 to maintain interoperability with the US for counter-terrorism operations. Pakistan and the US Air Force resumed bilateral training exercises in February 2022, for the first time since 2019. (US Air Force/MSgt Christopher Parr)

The US government has proposed a multimillion-dollar defence sale intended to sustain the Pakistan Air Force's (PAF's) fleet of Lockheed Martin F-16 fighters.

A US Department of State (DoS) spokesperson said on 8 September that the “United States government has notified Congress of a proposed Foreign Military Sales (FMS) case to sustain the Pakistan Air Force's F-16 programme”. The Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) delivered the required certification notifying Congress of the possible sale on 7 September.

The possible USD450 million sale is in response to a request by the government of Pakistan to consolidate prior F-16 sustainment and support cases. The sale will reduce “duplicate case activities and [add] additional continued support elements”, the DoS said.

The DoS added that the proposed sale does not include new capabilities, weapons, or munitions.

If the sale is approved, the PAF aircraft will participate in the F-16 Aircraft Structural Integrity Program and the Electronic Combat International Security Assistance Program. These include US government and contractor engineering, technical, and logistics services for follow-on support of Pakistan's F-16 fleet. The proposed sale will also give Pakistan access to the International Engine Management Program, the Aircraft Engine Component Improvement Program, and other technical co-ordination groups.

The programme will support the modification of the aircraft, engines, and software. In addition, it will provide support for classified and unclassified software.

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## Ghessan

fatman17 said:


> 12 SEPTEMBER 2022
> 
> US proposes sale to sustain Pakistan F-16s​by Akhil Kadidal
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If approved, the US Department of State's newly proposed sustainment sale will enable Pakistan's F-16 to maintain interoperability with the US for counter-terrorism operations. Pakistan and the US Air Force resumed bilateral training exercises in February 2022, for the first time since 2019. (US Air Force/MSgt Christopher Parr)
> 
> The US government has proposed a multimillion-dollar defence sale intended to sustain the Pakistan Air Force's (PAF's) fleet of Lockheed Martin F-16 fighters.
> 
> A US Department of State (DoS) spokesperson said on 8 September that the “United States government has notified Congress of a proposed Foreign Military Sales (FMS) case to sustain the Pakistan Air Force's F-16 programme”. The Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) delivered the required certification notifying Congress of the possible sale on 7 September.
> 
> The possible USD450 million sale is in response to a request by the government of Pakistan to consolidate prior F-16 sustainment and support cases. The sale will reduce “duplicate case activities and [add] additional continued support elements”, the DoS said.
> 
> The DoS added that the proposed sale does not include new capabilities, weapons, or munitions.
> 
> If the sale is approved, the PAF aircraft will participate in the F-16 Aircraft Structural Integrity Program and the Electronic Combat International Security Assistance Program. These include US government and contractor engineering, technical, and logistics services for follow-on support of Pakistan's F-16 fleet. The proposed sale will also give Pakistan access to the International Engine Management Program, the Aircraft Engine Component Improvement Program, and other technical co-ordination groups.
> 
> The programme will support the modification of the aircraft, engines, and software. In addition, it will provide support for classified and unclassified software.


Much needed program, when we have those aircraft in numbers then we have to keep them update.

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## ghazi52

.,.,
The CAS carried out out an operational evaluation of newly constructed infrastructure, equipment and support units.

The CAS remarked, “This enhancement of infrastructure and capability will augment the PAF's operational flexibility and enable the generation of a prudent..

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## ghazi52

.,.,

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1571071508570853376

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## fatman17

30 seconds over Sargodha

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## fatman17

J10CP 2nd batch 4 or 6 aircraft?


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## fatman17

'Dragon From The East' - Pakistan Gets 2nd Batch Of 'Rafale Challenger' J-10C Fighters From China - Local Media


Pakistan has received the 2nd batch of J-10C fighters, which it procured from its all-weather ally China, the country's local media outlets reported.




eurasiantimes.com


----------



## fatman17

Flight of the Falcon

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## fatman17

Build up to the 1965 war

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## fatman17

PAF stands up new No 50 Tactical Attack Squadron.

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## ghazi52

,.,..,
Air Chief oversees operational exercise of PAF​
Exercise focused on fostering synergy while considering future warfare challenges,” PAF news release says
APP 
September 28, 2022








*Chief of the Air Staff (CAS) Air Chief Marshal Zaheer Ahmed Baber Sidhu on Wednesday oversaw the operational Pakistan Air Force, Air Defence exercise, APP reported.*

“The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) conducted an operational Air Defence exercise focusing on fostering synergy while considering future warfare challenges,” a PAF news release said.

The aim of the exercise was to practice counter air-operations in order to validate contemporary employment concepts.

The exercise was focused on the integration of PAF and Pakistan Army air defence assets while training PAF operational crew to develop, practice, and validate tactics against envisaged threats.

While monitoring the conduct of exercise from Command Operations Center, the Air Chief assessed the integration and synergistic employment of offensive and defensive forces in synergy with Army Air Defence in order to validate contemporary employment concepts under near-realistic threat scenarios.

The PAF operational assets including Fighter aircraft, Air Defense elements, Force Multipliers, and Battle Management Centers were also integrated into the exercise.
Earlier, the CAS visited an operational base in the context of the same exercise to assess the integration of the newly acquired unmanned aerial system (UAS) in the PAF’s operational construct.

Highlighting the importance of UAS, the Air Chief said: “The role of Unmanned Aerial Systems is becoming increasingly important for military conflicts. UAS have assumed the lead role as force multipliers that could play a decisive role in the final outcome of modern-day battles.”

The CAS emphasized that PAF was fully cognizant of the geo-strategic developments in the region and was fully prepared to defend the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Pakistan. “Our focus remains on Operational Excellence, Continued Modernization through Smart Inductions of Cutting-Edge Niche Technologies, Effect-Based Training, and better Human Resource Development to befittingly address contemporary and future challenges.”

The Air Chief expressed his satisfaction as regards the overall combat readiness of the Pakistan Air Force and assured the nation that PAF alongside its sister services is ever ready to give a befitting response to any misadventure by the adversary..

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## ghazi52

,.,.




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=643297757159175

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## ghazi52

,.,.

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## CSAW

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1575336578003701760



















__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1575357747582930945


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## fatman17

A clearer image of J10CE-P for maritime strike missions

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## Ghessan

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 883454
> 
> A clearer image of J10CE-P for maritime strike missions


It seems last digit is deliberately blurred.


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## fatman17

Ghessan said:


> It seems last digit is deliberately blurred.


Very hush hush 😯


----------



## CLUMSY

I love that camo


----------



## ghazi52

.,.,

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## ghazi52

.,.,

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1575739612827652096

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## ghazi52

.,.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1574729352859848704

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## ghazi52

,.,.
Graduation Ceremony of 146th GD (P), 92nd Engineering, 1 02nd Air Defence, 92nd and 94th Royal Saudi Air Force Engineering Cadets’ Courses, held at PAF Academy Asghar Khan, Risalpur .

General Nadeem Raza, Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee was the Chief Guest.

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## Yasser76

ghazi52 said:


> ,.,.
> Graduation Ceremony of 146th GD (P), 92nd Engineering, 1 02nd Air Defence, 92nd and 94th Royal Saudi Air Force Engineering Cadets’ Courses, held at PAF Academy Asghar Khan, Risalpur .
> 
> General Nadeem Raza, Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee was the Chief Guest.



Saudi AF is actually conducting entire engineering batch at PAF Academy?


----------



## ghazi52

Part of PM Air wing...

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## ghazi52

,.,.
Pakistan Air Force Pilot Officer Zameer Murtaza has won the prestigious "Cranwell Medal" at the Royal Air Force Academy, United Kingdom.
The award is given to officers who perform exceptionally well at the academy.

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## Bleek

Do we have similar training simulators like this? 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1571854130888421376

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## ghazi52

,.,.,.
Airbus A319-112 [Reg: A-1102] spotted in PAF colors....

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## Tank131

Question: has the PL-15 officially also been inducted with the J-10 and do we hace verified pics of. The J-10 carrying it in PAF? IF so will it also equip JF-17 block 2 or only blk 3 when it comes?


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## Gripen9

Tank131 said:


> Question: has the PL-15 officially also been inducted with the J-10 and do we hace verified pics of. The J-10 carrying it in PAF? IF so will it also equip JF-17 block 2 or only blk 3 when it comes?


The first pics of J-10s landing @ PAF Minhas had them armed with PL15

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## Tank131

Gripen9 said:


> The first pics of J-10s landing @ PAF Minhas had them armed with PL15


Can you link it?


----------



## CSAW



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## arslank03

120+ units of national IFF being procured 🤔


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## ghazi52

Is this new PAF Combat uniforms this month?


----------



## SQ8

Bleek said:


> Do we have similar training simulators like this?
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1571854130888421376


PAF wants augmented reality - VR headset for external view in lieu with physical cockpit for real interaction.

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## Inception-06



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## SABRE

ghazi52 said:


> Is this new PAF Combat uniforms this month?
> 
> View attachment 885887
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 885886


Yes


----------



## ghazi52

,.,.,.




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=805089470703056

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## Super Falcon

THEY SHOULD BE CONVERTED IN SUCIDE DRONES

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## Super Falcon

Sould PAF consider KIZLELEMA Loyal Wingman for future use with project azm fighter jet as a loyal Wingman buddy






For me yes building a new loyal Wingman require more funds and time better get them fast with partnership with tot with turkey to fast track our airforce in the age of drone than IAF


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## syed_yusuf

Super Falcon said:


> Sould PAF consider KIZLELEMA Loyal Wingman for future use with project azm fighter jet as a loyal Wingman buddy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For me yes building a new loyal Wingman require more funds and time better get them fast with partnership with tot with turkey to fast track our airforce in the age of drone than IAF


This is nobrainer paf should partner in this project


----------



## ghazi52

.,.,

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## ghazi52

,.,.

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## Sanwal!!

ghazi52 said:


> ,.,.
> View attachment 887363


Quick question, is this J-10P model in the pic? May be it is an optical illusion but the model appears to be little different from J-10.


----------



## arslank03

Sanwal!! said:


> Quick question, is this J-10P model in the pic? May be it is an optical illusion but the model appears to be little different from J-10.


mirage 2000

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## AeroEngineer

A rare bird. PAF’s deHaviland Devon C Mk.2 on its delivery flight at Nicosia in 1953


----------



## AeroEngineer

A unique camo for T-37

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1582032786776412160

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## Mrc

PAF needs to invest in cheap small kamakazi drones that can be launched in droves against radars and airfields ....

Shahed 136 seems to be passing through even s 300 plus alot of European air defences with ease . And it's cheap so few shot down don't matter . The missile shooting them down is far more expensive and the few that get through do alot of damage

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

PAF officer inspecting a Bayraktar #Akinci drone before a training mission, which is carrying 4 glide bombs on the centreline pylon.

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## fatman17

$450m F-16 package: US Congress raises no objection during sale review period


KARACHI: Rejecting Indian reservations, the United States will go-ahead with its plan to provide $450 million F-16 sustainment package to Pakistan as the 30-day notice period lapsed without any...




www.thenews.com.pk


----------



## Super Falcon

syed_yusuf said:


> This is nobrainer paf should partner in this project


So what will be our future proj azm needs 10 more years than 10 more for these India already near completion on AMCA and their own wingman drone


----------



## fatman17

US Senate sees nothing wrong in F-16 deal with Pakistan


“The proposed sale will sustain Pakistan’s capability to meet current and future counterterrorism threats,” says US official.



www.dawn.com


----------



## Ghessan

fatman17 said:


> US Senate sees nothing wrong in F-16 deal with Pakistan
> 
> 
> “The proposed sale will sustain Pakistan’s capability to meet current and future counterterrorism threats,” says US official.
> 
> 
> 
> www.dawn.com


these Indians they just don't know US but they will be what we are used to. a new love affair always have surprises until it gets old.

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## ghazi52

.,.,
Initial Batch of PAF UAV operators have completed their training on Akinci Unmanned Combat Aerial Vehicles (UCAVs)...

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## Bleek

Super Falcon said:


> So what will be our future proj azm needs 10 more years than 10 more for these India already near completion on AMCA and their own wingman drone


Most likely we will eventually get the J-31, chances of an indigenous 5th generation materialising independently within the next decade are low. Our domestic industry requires a lot of reform if it wants to compete anywhere close to international standards. Unless you want to see a Qaher-313 roll out 

First goal should be a completely indigenous JF-17.

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## araz

Bleek said:


> Most likely we will eventually get the J-31, chances of an indigenous 5th generation materialising independently within the next decade are low. Our domestic industry requires a lot of reform if it wants to compete anywhere close to international standards. Unless you want to see a Qaher-313 roll out
> 
> First goal should be a completely indigenous JF-17.


There will NEVER be a FULLY INDEGENOUS JFT. This is the same as saying we want a fully indegenous Gripen or Samosa Tejas. There will only be a few powers in the world which have the infrastructure to build a fully indegenous fighter. On the F35 also there was international collaboration as was there on the EFT. We just do not have the economies of scale to build fighters indegenously nor do we have the infrastructure. At our current pace we will require 20-30 years to build up the infrastructure to build fighters. We will still have to collaborate to ensure we build enough to keep costs down. So much as I would like to salute your suggestion it is not possible in the current/near future time scale.
As 5o the 5th generation offering, I am unsure whether PAF will go with the J3x. PAF has allied itself with the TFX( I fully understand the engine issue and the lack of previous fighter output from the Turks). The reason appears to be China's apparent lack of agreement to workshare on the project instead acting as a supplier only while the PAF wants its own input in the fighter it acquires. These waters therefore are very murky to predict a future course. You may well be right but for the moment till the Chinese give in to the workshare idea we are not going to go down that route. So we do need to see how this pans out. What experience PAF has with the J10 might also shape its thought processes.
A

Reactions: Love Love:
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## Bleek

araz said:


> There will NEVER be a FULLY INDEGENOUS JFT. This is the same as saying we want a fully indegenous Gripen or Samosa Tejas. There will only be a few powers in the world which have the infrastructure to build a fully indegenous fighter. On the F35 also there was international collaboration as was there on the EFT. We just do not have the economies of scale to build fighters indegenously nor do we have the infrastructure. At our current pace we will require 20-30 years to build up the infrastructure to build fighters. We will still have to collaborate to ensure we build enough to keep costs down. So much as I would like to salute your suggestion it is not possible in the current/near future time scale.
> As 5o the 5th generation offering, I am unsure whether PAF will go with the J3x. PAF has allied itself with the TFX( I fully understand the engine issue and the lack of previous fighter output from the Turks). The reason appears to be China's apparent lack of agreement to workshare on the project instead acting as a supplier only while the PAF wants its own input in the fighter it acquires. These waters therefore are very murky to predict a future course. You may well be right but for the moment till the Chinese give in to the workshare idea we are not going to go down that route. So we do need to see how this pans out. What experience PAF has with the J10 might also shape its thought processes.
> A


It doesn't have to be 100% indigenous down to engines and every component, just the avionics, radar, etc, and manufacturing rather than assembling. I think that's realistic to some degree. The only constraint would be our economy and putting the correct reforms in place.

Also when was it confirmed we allied with the TF-X?

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## araz

Bleek said:


> It doesn't have to be 100% indigenous down to engines and every component, just the avionics, radar, etc, and manufacturing rather than assembling. I think that's realistic to some degree. The only constraint would be our economy and putting the correct reforms in place.
> 
> Also when was it confirmed we allied with the TF-X?


Agreed on the JFT which is a lot clearer than your earlier post. Re the TFX PAF has been on record saying TFX ticks all the boxes for PAF. No such statement has come out on the J31/35. On the contrary ex PAF officers have pointed to J20 as a potential future acquisition. So of the j31/35 and TFX there seems more support for the TFX than theJ3xx.
A


----------



## ghazi52

..,
*Humanitarian Assistance and Disaster Relief (HADR) Operations Summary 24-10-2022 (PAF).*

Despite the lowering of water levels, the devastation caused by floods has still rendered people in distress due to food shortage and disease outbreak.

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## fatman17

It was reported in September 2016 that Nigerian AF decided to acquire 3 *JF-17N*s. All three (720, 721, 722) were delivered in early 2021. They were inducted into NAF on May 20, 2021.* JF-17N*s have been seen carrying ASELPOD designation pod and Al-Battar 500lb LGBs for ground attack missions.
_- Last Updated 10/25/22



_


----------



## arslank03

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) , correct me if im wrong... but this looks like the paf is buying rek's at $1m a unit...? Even PK83 is costing 3x what a us made mk83 costs?



from dgdp book 2018, 100 units@ 100m usd...


----------



## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

__ https://www.facebook.com/ACEofPAF/photos/a.710972692343361/5495338173906765

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

arslank03 said:


> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) , correct me if im wrong... but this looks like the paf is buying rek's at $1m a unit...? Even PK83 is costing 3x what a us made mk83 costs?
> View attachment 889689
> from dgdp book 2018, 100 units@ 100m usd...


Yep, @JamD caught that back then too.

I suspect the high cost of the REK was due to tech transfer for the IREK.

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## arslank03

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Yep, @JamD caught that back then too.
> 
> I suspect the high cost of the REK was due to tech transfer for the IREK.



if only there was some sort of accountability commission because it seems like someones pockets are getting lined, jdam er even is only 10,000

Reactions: Like Like:
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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

A Pakistani F-7PG combat aircraft armed with AIM-9 IR missiles and anti-armour cluster munitions

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

A Pakistani Mirage tactical attack pilot fixes his NVG helmet instruments before a nighttime strike training sortie

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## ghazi52

.,,.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1586764913258668033

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## ghazi52

.,.,
A formation of F-7P from No. 2 Air Superiority "Minhasians" Sqn and Mirage-III from No. 7 Tactical Attack "Bandits" Sqn. 

Both once formed the backbone of Aerial Defense of the South. Now both roles have been taken over by JF-17 but with much more agility, lethality and precision..

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## ghazi52

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1587018302525775877

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## fatman17



Reactions: Like Like:
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## Sinnerman108

fatman17 said:


>



A lot of speculative claims in this video. 

I think we will have to wait, until something substantial turns up.

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## fatman17

Sinnerman108 said:


> A lot of speculative claims in this video.
> 
> I think we will have to wait, until something substantial turns up.


44 pilots and technicians of PAF have been trained on this weapons system. So it is definitely being inducted.

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## ghazi52

Contingent of Pakistan Air Force along with 03 JF-17A Block-II fighters has reached Bahrain for participation in BIAS 2022.

JF-17 will participate in both aerial and static display at the International event.

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## SQ8

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) 
https://apple.news/AQ1c0MMLGTdavivRV_hG9iQ

This is what the PAF needs and is in a very very rudimentary form coming with the J-10CP

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

SQ8 said:


> @Bilal Khan (Quwa)
> https://apple.news/AQ1c0MMLGTdavivRV_hG9iQ
> 
> This is what the PAF needs and is in a very very rudimentary form coming with the J-10CP


I think Turkey is actively working for something like this via the Hurjet and MMU. Their HMD/S, for example, skips the monocule and goes straight to visor display projection. That opens up a lot of possibilities from a training standpoint.

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## Irfan Baloch

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I think Turkey is actively working for something like this via the Hurjet and MMU. Their HMD/S, for example, skips the monocule and goes straight to visor display projection. That opens up a lot of possibilities from a training standpoint.


are we talking about mixed reality modules?
where the training pilots have a VR but the controls are actual along with all the physical switches which when turned or touched are replicated exactly in the VR too?
I have seen some home made setups as well as a video of an unknown company that has made an F-16 flight mixed reality module.


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## ghazi52

.,..

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1590245077464776704

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## ghazi52

Ready to roar.....
The Exemplary Ground Crew are also ready with their ever Reliable JF-17 Thunder to rock the skies of yet another Air Show!

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## ghazi52

.,.,,.
The Pakistan Air Force delegation to the Bahrain International Air Show BIAS 2022 is led by Air Commodore Suleman Ghani. The Air Cdr has served as the Chief Test Pilot of the Thunder Project, and has extensive combat experience with the type as well, leading the JF-17 Thunder..

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## JamD

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I think Turkey is actively working for something like this via the Hurjet and MMU.


Yup. Don't know about game-like visuals but training system, yes.

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## fatman17

https://www.flightglobal.com/defence/pakistan-debuts-jf-17-fighters-at-bahrain-air-show/150882.article


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## ghazi52

,.,.,.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1590955008828518400

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## ghazi52

,.,.,.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1590213007522828288

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## ghazi52

.,.
PAF Contingent comprising of JF-17 aircrew and ground crew had a friendly interaction with UAE Air Force contingent. UAEAF contingent comprised of F-16 & Mirage-2000 Solo Aerobatics team along with the Al-Fursan Formation Aerobatics Team...

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## ghazi52

.,.,
Date: 17th-November-2022
Venue: Sea View, Karachi.. 
Time: 1530hrs 
Participants: 
Sherdil Aerobatics Team 
PAF F-16 Solo Display 
PAF JF-17 Solo Display 
PN Avn. Fly-past 
And much more!

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## ghazi52

.,.
Minhasians x Black Panthers x Tigers...

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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52

.,.,

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1591285198611976192

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## ghazi52

.,.,.,
Pakistan Air Force Indigenous Electronic Countermeasures System. IDEAS2022..

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## ghazi52

.,.,

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1592481669113868288

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## fatman17



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## ghazi52

.,.,

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1592869873025110016

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## ghazi52

.,.,

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1592852052514050048

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## ghazi52

.,.

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## Ali_Baba

ghazi52 said:


> .,.,
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1592852052514050048



hhmm - doesnt PAF already have its own ACMI pod ???


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## SABRE

So, is there an air show tomorrow in Karachi or what?


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## HRK



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## GriffinsRule

Cobra upgrade?

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## fatman17

Export Success For Pakistan! PAC Delivers Three 'Indigenously Developed' MFI-17 Aircraft To 'Key Ally' Turkey


Turkish Air Force (TurAF) received three MFI-17 Super Mushshak training aircraft from Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC).




eurasiantimes.com


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## ghazi52

,.,.




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=442227401213773

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## ghazi52

.,.,

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1593242570326708224

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## ghazi52

.,.,
Mirage III (DP) from PAF No. 8 Sqn 'HAIDERS' pulling up in front of venue after a fly past during IDEAS 2022 'KARACHI SHOW'

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## ghazi52

.,.,

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1593300738301730817

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## fatman17

Pakistan's JF-17 Block-3 Fighter Surfaces With 'Deadly' Upgrades; German Expert Compares With India's LCA Tejas


Pakistan Air Force's (PAF) JF-17 Thunder Block-3 fighter co-developed with China indicate that its Block-III variant is progressing rapidly




eurasiantimes.com


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1593864872369930240

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## SQ8

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @JamD 

The thinking has to go 50 years ahead like this …

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## ghazi52

.,.,.,

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1593891047402360832

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## ghazi52

,..,,.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1593504818496167937

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## fatman17

An LED probe light was installed on top of the right engine intake behind the IFR probe to illuminate both the probe and the drogue from the tanker during night operations. The aircraft is to be supported by PAF Il-78MP tanker. The IFR test was believed to have started in 2017. All Block IIs starting from 16-229 and on will have the IFR probe and probe light installed. The Block II variant is expected to be followed by the much improved Block III.


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## Ali_Baba

fatman17 said:


> An LED probe light was installed on top of the right engine intake behind the IFR probe to illuminate both the probe and the drogue from the tanker during night operations. The aircraft is to be supported by PAF Il-78MP tanker. The IFR test was believed to have started in 2017. All Block IIs starting from 16-229 and on will have the IFR probe and probe light installed. The Block II variant is expected to be followed by the much improved Block III.
> View attachment 898811



But why only 16-229 onwards? I would have thought the entire fleet of Block II's would be upgraded for IFR. I can get onboard with Block I not being made IFR capable if there was large structural changes to accommodate the IFR etc.

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## fatman17

Ali_Baba said:


> But why only 16-229 onwards? I would have thought the entire fleet of Block II's would be upgraded for IFR. I can get onboard with Block I not being made IFR capable if there was large structural changes to accommodate the IFR etc.


Good Q?


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## ghazi52

.,.,

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1593333992178290690


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Aerial Refuelling


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## ghazi52

Air Show at Sea View Karachi ... IDEAS 2022

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## Trailer23

I don't recall any news regarding a new PAF Base in Muridke (Punjab).

Despite deadly floods and financial crisis, Pakistan continues to build Muridke airport near IAF airfields

PAF developing new Forward Airbase across Indian border


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## TsAr

Trailer23 said:


> I don't recall any news regarding a new PAF Base in Muridke (Punjab).
> 
> Despite deadly floods and financial crisis, Pakistan continues to build Muridke airport near IAF airfields
> 
> PAF developing new Forward Airbase across Indian border


Muridke is being built as a replacement to Walton airport.

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## fatman17

China and Pakistan's JF-17 may soon be the most widely operated Chinese combat aircraft around the world


The JF-17, designed and developed by Pakistan and China, is "not cutting edge, but it is a reliable performer," one expert told Insider.




www.businessinsider.com


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## GriffinsRule

fatman17 said:


> China and Pakistan's JF-17 may soon be the most widely operated Chinese combat aircraft around the world
> 
> 
> The JF-17, designed and developed by Pakistan and China, is "not cutting edge, but it is a reliable performer," one expert told Insider.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.businessinsider.com


Useless article full of inaccuracies. Please don't post and promote such misinformed crap.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## ghazi52

.,.,,.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1558698930493341704

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## hassan1

PAKISTAN AIR FORCE Beechcraft B300 King Air 350

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## ghazi52

.,.,

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## siegecrossbow

ghazi52 said:


> .,.,
> View attachment 900919



Let the Twitter Wars begin!

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1597267176259362816


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## ghazi52

*Sharp Shooters Reloaded .......





 https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=3384951118451380




*

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## Hassan Imtiaz

Block 3s?


ghazi52 said:


> *Sharp Shooters Reloaded .......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=3384951118451380
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *


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## blain2

ghazi52 said:


> *Sharp Shooters Reloaded .......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=3384951118451380
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *


Amazing aircraft!

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## ghazi52

,.,.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1598021665497440256

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## ghazi52

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1597163302861541376

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## GriffinsRule

Hassan Imtiaz said:


> Block 3s?


Video is from 2020 so no

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1598208027580039169

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1598205171502383106

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## ghazi52

.,,..,

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1598236387484274689

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## fatman17

Strike of Falcons


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## PDF

*Deal with Pakistan*​
Meanwhile, Korkut also added that they (Turkish technology company SDT Space and Defense Technologies Inc. ) agreed to a project in March at the IDEAS defense fair in Pakistan.


As part of the deal, he said, they are exporting ammunition training pods (ACMI) for both the F-16s and JF-17s of the Pakistan Air Forces.


“We signed the project in March, it went into effect in June. Our schedule is running, the critical design review and project review meeting will be held in Ankara soon,” he said.


Korkut stressed that the U.S. and Israel make ACMI pods with similar features that are used in NATO aircraft.


“We have signed a contract to integrate this pod into an aircraft other than NATO aircraft, which is a first in Pakistan,” he said as the JF-17 is a Pakistan-China joint-production aircraft.









Turkish firm to aid in mass production of S. Korea's fighter jet


Turkish technology company SDT Space and Defense Technologies Inc. will continue to contribute to South Korea's domestically developed fighter jet...




www.dailysabah.com

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

HMDs system of PAF Air Crafts ...


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## HAIDER



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## fatman17

Retired PAF Officers furnished accommodation at PAF Base Malir, Karachi. The Retired PAF Officers can live there life-time (self and wife) by paying only half amount from their pension monthly. It includes double room with attached bathroom, TV lounge with TV, fridge, split A/Cs (in bedroom and lounge), batman, barber, tailor, laundry services, three times meal, car parking, Base telephone extension, separate Mess, medical at Malir Base Medical Squadron and indoor and outdoor sport facility. Watch the below video.

Sorry can't upload video

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## Iron Shrappenel

fatman17 said:


> Retired PAF Officers furnished accommodation at PAF Base Malir, Karachi. The Retired PAF Officers can live there life-time (self and wife) by paying only half amount from their pension monthly. It includes double room with attached bathroom, TV lounge with TV, fridge, split A/Cs (in bedroom and lounge), batman, barber, tailor, laundry services, three times meal, car parking, Base telephone extension, separate Mess, medical at Malir Base Medical Squadron and indoor and outdoor sport facility. Watch the below video.
> 
> Sorry can't upload video


??????


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## fatman17

Iron Shrappenel said:


> ??????


Old folks home 🏡

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## ghazi52

,.,.,.,.
PAF and TurAF have established deep rooted brotherly relations based on mutual respect and friendship. 
Both have cooperated in fields of military expertise, training & technology.


One such example was volunteering by PAF for sending its pilots to Turkiye after the 2016 Coup.




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=672121461047973

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## Windjammer

_What 25 years can do to you. 








_

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Subsonic vs supersonic

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1603282563275055104


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## Ali_Baba

Windjammer said:


> _What 25 years can do to you.
> 
> View attachment 906079
> View attachment 906080
> _



In the Omar versus Mohsin boxing match - it does look like Omar was the better "boxer" and won the rounds and the fight overall !!!


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## SABRE

ghazi52 said:


> .,.,
> View attachment 900919



Is this IAF's slide or prepared someone in Pakistan? Looks very amateurish.


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## ghazi52

.,.

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## ghazi52

,.,.,.
50 years ago Today,



PAF F-86E (Canadair CL-13) flown by F/L Maqsood Amir from No.18 Sqn "Sharp Shooters" shot down



IAF MiG-21 flown by F/L Tejwant Singh who became POW.
Dogfight took place over Kasur.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

"Your skill is great, but mine is supreme!" 
The best of PAF aircrew undergo rigourous training at Flight Instructor School in Risalpur before they are handed over the prestigious instructorship. These men then train one of the most refined & resolute fighter pilots in the world.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1606879941731258368

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## Pakistan Ka Beta

Pakistan Air Force pays tribute to Flying Officer Nasim Nisar Beg Shaheed, Tamgha-i-Jurrat​






Pakistan Air Force during 1971 War​

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## ghazi52



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

An Aviation Art depicting a Three Ship Formation consisting of F-16 from No. 29 Aggressor, JF-17 from CCS Dashings & Mirage-III from CCS Skybolts over Mushaf Air Base. These three units are the prime element of Air Combat Center of Excellence (ACE), PAF's version of "Top Gun"


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Group Capt Abbas Mirza of PAF after flying the first solo flight on F-20 Tigershark. During the 80s, three US jets were short-listed by the PAF, Fairchild Republic A-10 Thunderbolt, LTV A-7 Corsair-2, and the Northrop F-20 Tigershark to compliment the small F-16 Fleet.

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## syed_yusuf

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> Group Capt Abbas Mirza of PAF after flying the first solo flight on F-20 Tigershark. During the 80s, three US jets were short-listed by the PAF, Fairchild Republic A-10 Thunderbolt, LTV A-7 Corsair-2, and the Northrop F-20 Tigershark to compliment the small F-16 Fleet.


Pakistan should have gone for f20 with full tot and ownership of the design in mid 80s.

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## blain2

syed_yusuf said:


> Pakistan should have gone for f20 with full tot and ownership of the design in mid 80s.


Unfortunately the outcome would have been no different than what happened with the F-16 and soybean saga. Instead of the F-16s, it would have been the F-20s and soybean. 

JF-17 program remains the most prudent thing to have happened for Pakistan Air Force. Hopefully the same focus and single-minded effort is being applied to what is to come next.

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## Tank131

blain2 said:


> Unfortunately the outcome would have been no different than what happened with the F-16 and soybean saga. Instead of the F-16s, it would have been the F-20s and soybean.
> 
> JF-17 program remains the most prudent thing to have happened for Pakistan Air Force. Hopefully the same focus and single-minded effort is being applied to what is to come next.


Frankly having the design and production rights including the turbofan and possibly the sparrow missile would have been far better in the long run for Pakistan's defense industry. Yes it would have meant no f-16, and that situation has for the most part remied itself, but in the 90s, unfettered ability to produce F-20s and with French and possibly chinese help, being able tobuild and upgrade new airframes would have put the defense industry far ahead of where it is at currently. Possibly where turkey is with the right management.


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## blain2

Tank131 said:


> Frankly having the design and production rights including the turbofan and possibly the sparrow missile would have been far better in the long run for Pakistan's defense industry. Yes it would have meant no f-16, and that situation has for the most part remied itself, but in the 90s, unfettered ability to produce F-20s and with French and possibly chinese help, being able tobuild and upgrade new airframes would have put the defense industry far ahead of where it is at currently. Possibly where turkey is with the right management.


All it would have taken is the Pressler/Glen amendment to get Pakistan derailed. Our engagement is too transactional for something strategic like this to come to fruition.


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## Tank131

blain2 said:


> All it would have taken is the Pressler/Glen amendment to get Pakistan derailed. Our engagement is too transactional for something strategic like this to come to fruition.


From my understanding, the terms of the F-20 offer was that Pakistan would ostensibly take over the full production of the aircraft including the subsystems. Not sure how true it is, but if it was, Pressler would have had limited effect on this.

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## Raider 21

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> Group Capt Abbas Mirza of PAF after flying the first solo flight on F-20 Tigershark. During the 80s, three US jets were short-listed by the PAF, Fairchild Republic A-10 Thunderbolt, LTV A-7 Corsair-2, and the Northrop F-20 Tigershark to compliment the small F-16 Fleet.


The F-20 was a program that many in PAF wish had happened. 

Abbas Mirza, callsign Mickey. Rumoured to be unbeatable in air combat and a very aggressive fighter pilot. They couldn't have picked a better pilot to evaluate the Tigershark.



Tank131 said:


> From my understanding, the terms of the F-20 offer was that Pakistan would ostensibly take over the full production of the aircraft including the subsystems. Not sure how true it is, but if it was, Pressler would have had limited effect on this.


Yes. They were offered full production.

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## Dreamer.

Tank131 said:


> From my understanding, the terms of the F-20 offer was that Pakistan would ostensibly take over the full production of the aircraft including the subsystems. Not sure how true it is, but if it was, Pressler would have had limited effect on this.


Wishful thinking that ignores realities.

Do you think Pakistan had the industrial capacity to become totally self sufficient and build everything for an aircraft including engines in a mere span of max 5-6 years? Without any prior experience? Pressler came into effect in 1990 remember. Impossible even with supposed "TOT". Do you know our track record with Agosta's? Alkhalid's? etc.etc. 
And JF-17 too....though successful but look at the time lines.

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## GriffinsRule

Raider 21 said:


> The F-20 was a program that many in PAF wish had happened.
> 
> Abbas Mirza, callsign Mickey. Rumoured to be unbeatable in air combat and a very aggressive fighter pilot. They couldn't have picked a better pilot to evaluate the Tigershark.
> 
> 
> Yes. They were offered full production.


In the end the aircraft did not meet the criteria PAF had put forth. Also, the aircraft in hindsight would have been a terrible choice. Even during sanctions, PAF could and did procure parts for its F-16s, albeit at much higher costs. And given how widely exported the jet is, we have been able to buy used ones to bolster our numbers. 
No such option would have been available with the F-20. 
The one thing where it MIGHT have helped is having a Super-7 like project come to fruition sooner and a trained workforce but who really knows, its all conjecture.


----------



## Tank131

Dreamer. said:


> Wishful thinking that ignores realities.
> 
> Do you think Pakistan had the industrial capacity to become totally self sufficient and build everything for an aircraft including engines in a mere span of max 5-6 years? Without any prior experience? Pressler came into effect in 1990 remember. Impossible even with supposed "TOT". Do you know our track record with Agosta's? Alkhalid's? etc.etc.
> And JF-17 too....though successful but look at the time lines.


The big problem for the word ToT as it is understood here is that people here think all ToT means you can start printing out subs/aircraft ect. The reality is that often woth ToT you only get assembly (90Bs) or partial manufacturing rights (JF-17). ALkhalid was acquired with Full TOT but core components were outsourced like its engine from Ukraine. Those outsourcings can be rate limiting steps, especially when we talk about things like Pressler. From my understanding, engine, airframe and avionics assembly was to be set up in Pakistan for F-20 as it would have been the ONLY operator in the world. Had this been the case, then yes it would have been possible. Loom what iran has done keeping its variants of F-5 up. Having the background in turbofan manufacturing would have helped establish a manufacturing hub to perform R&D on new designs. Same for airframes and avionics.


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## Dreamer.

Tank131 said:


> The big problem for the word ToT as it is understood here is that people here think all ToT means you can start printing out subs/aircraft ect.


Exactly my point actually, which is why I put TOT in inverted commas. No matter what level of "TOT" we got, Bottom line is that we were never going to get something that pressler etc. couldn't stop.
I truly doubt what was being offered meant that we could go on producing complex and major sub-systems like radars, engines etc. on our own even after sanctions. Wasn't going to happen...not that our industry even had the capability to absorb such "TOT" and become self-sufficient in all that in just 5 years.

Just take a look at rest of the world and how long it took for other countries to get somewhere (and how far was that?), even with help from likes of US.


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

F-7PGs of Pakistan Air Force equipped with 2x AIM-9 Sidewinder, 2x Mark-82 Unguided bombs and 2x CBU-97 Cluster Munition.

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## ghazi52

Chinese aircrafts in PAF stock

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## GriffinsRule

ghazi52 said:


> Chinese aircrafts in PAF stock


Missed FT-5 and K-8


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## ghazi52

.,.,

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## Ali_Baba

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> F-7PGs of Pakistan Air Force equipped with 2x AIM-9 Sidewinder, 2x Mark-82 Unguided bombs and 2x CBU-97 Cluster Munition.



That is a nice picture for sure - it is a shame we could never get these birds upgraded to be able to fire SD-10s using the Link-17 platform for targetting and guidance updates..


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## ghazi52

.,..
CCS Sqn formation circa 1990's Pakistan Air Force 

• Shenyang F-6A
• Dassult Mirage VPA
• General Dynamics F-16A Block 15


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## Bossman

ghazi52 said:


> Chinese aircrafts in PAF stock


Add the K8, ZDK03, Y-12, H-5, FT5, FT7 and CH4

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## ghazi52

,..,






Saifi سیفی 
Dec 31, 2022

PAF 2022


----------

