# Chinese Flanker Family: J-11, J-16 ... Su-27SK/UBK, Su-30MKK



## Max The Boss

J-11 New Versions

J-11B is the new version of the J-11, J-11B is a 4.5-generation multirole version which uses more Chinese components, including radar, engine, and missiles. The chief program engineer for J-11B is Mr. Guo Dianman. China is interested in reducing its reliance on foreign technology for both cost reasons and a desire to improve its domestic research and design. It is reported that one regiment of J-11B are currently in service. In May, 2007, the existence of J-11B was finally acknowledged by the Chinese government for the first time when the state-run Chinese TV stations first aired the report on J-11B in PLAAF service. According to the Chinese report, which is agreed by some western sources such as Jane's Information Group, the J-11B is superior to Su-27SK in the following areas.

1)	The wide adoption of composite material (mainly carbon fiber) for the surfaces, reducing the weight of the aircraft for more than 700 kg, while the life of the composite part is increased over 10,000 hours in comparison to the original part built from steel.

2)	Redesigned air inlets of engine intakes to reduce the radar cross section, this coupled with the adoption of composite material, and application of radar absorbent material has reduced the radar cross section (RCS) of 15 square meters of Su-27SK to just >3 square meters of J-11B.

3)	Full air-to-surface / sea capability is added and J-11B is able to launch various precision guided air-to-surface and air-to-sea munitions.

4)	Certified to be equipped with WS-10 (will be upgraded to WS-10A in the future) turbofan engine, which is claimed to be cheaper to operate than AL-31F.

5)	Incorporation of on-board oxygen generating system (OBOGS): With the exception of Su-35 and Su-37, J-11B is the first of the Su-27 family to incorporate such technology. Due to the adoption of western style design features such as fully digitized computerized controls and solid state micro-electronics, Chinese claimed that the domestic OBOGS is superior than the analog system Russia offered to China.

6)	Improved radar. The new radar is able to track 6-8 targets at the same time, and engage 4 of the 6-8 tracked simultaneously. When used against large surface target such as a destroyer, the maximum range of the radar was in excess of 350 km. The range against aerial targets was not disclosed, but it would be definitely much shorter, as in all radars. The Chinese official report claims that the radar is better than the 147x/KLJ-X radar family, but stop short of identifying the exact type. Contrary to many erroneous comments by many domestic Chinese sources, which mistakenly claimed that the radar had adopted a passive phased array antenna, the official claims of many Chinese governmental sources such as technical journals and publications have revealed that the radar still adopted a slotted planar array antenna.

7)	Fully digitized solid-state avionics has replaced the analogue one in Su-27SK. In the mid-2007, the Chinese governmental television station CCTV-7 released news clips of Chinese pilots in the cockpits of J-11B, with the LCD of glass cockpit of J-11B clearly visible, despite that the official report itself only claimed replacing the original avionics with domestic Chinese fully digitized solid-state avionics, and nothing of EFIS or glass cockpit was mentioned. In comparison to the earlier EFIS on J-11A, the most obvious difference is that LCD MFDs on J-11B are aligned in a straight line, instead of the middle one being slightly lower. The arrangement, appearance and layout of MFDs and EFIS of J-11B are similar to the general design concept of the west.

8)	Missile Approach Warning System. 

Professor Wang also revealed in the same interview that the J-11B will be equipped with domestic engines and J-11B is aerial refueling capable.

J-11BS is the tandem twin seater version of J-11B, J-11BS under development, reportedly as the Chinese version of Su-30MK2/3. It is rumored that the letter S stands for Shuangzuo, meaning twin seater in Chinese. The existence of J-11BS is officially acknowledged by the Chinese government in 2007, and a large model of J-11BS was revealed public on June 9, 2007 during the opening ceremony of the new aerospace museum of the Harbin Institute of Technology at the 20-year anniversary of the establishment of its school of astronautics, where it is displayed. Some sources outside China have claimed that the successful development of J-11BS is one of reasons that China lacks the enthusiasm on purchasing Su-30MK3, but the Chinese government appears to be rather cautious with official reports only claiming that the project is very promising, instead of declaring it is successful already.

J-11C is the aircraft carrier version of J-11B, J-11C under development, reportedly as the Chinese version of Su-33. The first mock-up of J-11C was displayed in public at air shows and defense exhibitions in China in late 2002, and the mock-up is shown to be able to be armed with all currently available Chinese anti-ship missiles, as well as air-to-air missile including PL-12.

Source: Wikipedia & Other Defence Websites.

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## Cockpuncher

j11 B is 4.5 GEN? thats news!
show me the source.
when will this be inducted?
can it face su30mki on equal footing?

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## badguy2000

J11b should be the second advanced variation of all flankers now.

of course ,the new su35 of russian is the best.

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## badguy2000

Cockpuncher said:


> j11 B is 4.5 GEN? thats news!
> show me the source.
> when will this be inducted?
> can it face su30mki on equal footing?


su30 mik now was advanced once.

but now, it is left behind,for the tech of bird is upgrade so rapidly...

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## xiaoyi



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## DaRk WaVe

lolzzz Look at the smoke in First picture, Thanks for posting, post more If u have it...


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## abbasniazi

J11 would have been an easy and tit for tat answer for SU30 MKI, i wonder why PAF didn't go for it?

May be due to export restrictions by russia, but even then, if chinese would have granted PAF access to J11 it'd have helped PAF alot to understand the strengths and weaknesses of Indian SU30 MKI.

God knows whats going through PAF minds.

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## aimarraul

j-11b

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## aimarraul

abbasniazi said:


> J11 would have been an easy and tit for tat answer for SU30 MKI, i wonder why PAF didn't go for it?
> 
> May be due to export restrictions by russia, but even then, if chinese would have granted PAF access to J11 it'd have helped PAF alot to understand the strengths and weaknesses of Indian SU30 MKI.
> 
> God knows whats going through PAF minds.



cos J-11 is license upgrade su-27,russia won't let that happen.most fanboy believe J-11 is intergrade fighter before J-XX enter service,PAF shouldn't go for it even if russia is willing to sell,it's a cash burning jet,F-16C\D and fC-20 will be good enough to match SU-30MKI

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## Oriental soul

It cool;
&#39030;&#65281;


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## TaimiKhan

abbasniazi said:


> J11 would have been an easy and tit for tat answer for SU30 MKI, i wonder why PAF didn't go for it?
> 
> May be due to export restrictions by russia, but even then, if chinese would have granted PAF access to J11 it'd have helped PAF alot to understand the strengths and weaknesses of Indian SU30 MKI.
> 
> God knows whats going through PAF minds.



And how do you know that PAF pilots don't had access or haven't checked out J-11 or PLAAF Su-30s ?? 

Plus, the flying characteristics are not hard to know, main issue is the avionics and other electronics that are installed, countering them is the real problem.

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## Windjammer

abbasniazi said:


> J11 would have been an easy and tit for tat answer for SU30 MKI, i wonder why PAF didn't go for it?
> 
> May be due to export restrictions by russia, but even then, if chinese would have granted PAF access to J11 it'd have helped PAF alot to understand the strengths and weaknesses of Indian SU30 MKI.
> 
> God knows whats going through PAF minds.


It's something of an open secret that Pakistan is considering the J-11 for Martime strike role.


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## TaimiKhan

Windjammer said:


> It's something of an open secret that Pakistan is considering the J-11 for Martime strike role.



An open secret based on speculation by speculators. There is no official assessment nor an official interest in it for the time. Pakistani defence doctrine is for the time being based on single engine jets, easy to maintain and keep a better flying worthy rate. We have not vast maritime area to defend, easily can be defended by single engine aircraft, force multiplier would be the AEW&C giving PAF & PN ample time to react to any Indian aggressive moves. 

Yes if Chinese engine WS-10A comes into service & the IPRs are not exercised by Russians or Russia gives permission then may be, but for the time being and in foreseeable future no way.

JF-17 & FC-20s with F-16s are more then enough, all we need is a good SAM system, and wait for Chinese 5th Gen aircraft and buy them if China allows it.

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## lockh33d

aimarraul said:


> j-11b



How do you tell externally whether an aircraft is a Variant A or B?


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## Windjammer

taimikhan said:


> An open secret based on speculation by speculators. There is no official assessment nor an official interest in it for the time. Pakistani defence doctrine is for the time being based on single engine jets, easy to maintain and keep a better flying worthy rate. We have not vast maritime area to defend, easily can be defended by single engine aircraft, force multiplier would be the AEW&C giving PAF & PN ample time to react to any Indian aggressive moves.
> 
> Yes if Chinese engine WS-10A comes into service & the IPRs are not exercised by Russians or Russia gives permission then may be, but for the time being and in foreseeable future no way.
> 
> JF-17 & FC-20s with F-16s are more then enough, all we need is a good SAM system, and wait for Chinese 5th Gen aircraft and buy them if China allows it.


A reality check is in place as,
At one time Pakistan was even denying acquiring the A-5s from China.
The Dilemma of the Russian engines was also rumored with the JF-17 project however with the current economical melt down despite Indian objections the Russians are said to have obliged.
Anyways, the following was reason for my assertion.

Their have been rumors in circulation within naval circles (one of which is my source) that Pakistan is very closely looking at procuring the J-11 for the Naval aviation arm. This would be a major boost to the Pakistani navy's range of operations and capability, since the chinese flanker could carry upto 4-5 ASM. The russian connection for the engines has already been delt with and the russians have cleared orders.

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## TaimiKhan

Windjammer said:


> A reality check is in place as,
> At one time Pakistan was even denying acquiring the A-5s from China.
> The Dilemma of the Russian engines was also rumored with the JF-17 project however with the current economical melt down despite Indian objections the Russians are said to have obliged.
> Anyways, the following was reason for my assertion.
> 
> Their have been rumors in circulation within naval circles (one of which is my source) that Pakistan is very closely looking at procuring the J-11 for the Naval aviation arm. This would be a major boost to the Pakistani navy's range of operations and capability, since the chinese flanker could carry upto 4-5 ASM. The russian connection for the engines has already been delt with and the russians have cleared orders.



Well lets see then, if it happens 2 Sqds atleast would be a big boost for the defence of maritime boundaries.

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## DaRk WaVe




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## brahmastra

copy of sukhoi-30?


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## TaimiKhan

brahmastra said:


> copy of sukhoi-30?



Su-27 basically, Su-30 has canards which are absent in J-11s. 

And J-11BS is the tandem eat version of Su-27. 

China had local assembly contract for Su-27s not Su-30.


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## araz

taimikhan said:


> Well lets see then, if it happens 2 Sqds atleast would be a big boost for the defence of maritime boundaries.



A thing that people are not realizing is that with WS10A J11 if cleared for export becomes a manageable option for PAF. We will always go for J10s, but as wind jammer said a couple of squadrons of J11 would be the icing on the cake. By the way this is not the first time this rumour has been circulated
Araz


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## Kompromat

araz said:


> A thing that people are not realizing is that with WS10A J11 if cleared for export becomes a manageable option for PAF. We will always go for J10s, but as wind jammer said a couple of squadrons of J11 would be the icing on the cake. By the way this is not the first time this rumour has been circulated
> Araz




Man this thing looks kikazzz

Go China go

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## grey boy 2

lockh33d said:


> How do you tell externally whether an aircraft is a Variant A or B?



The J-11B aircraft are typically painted in different camouflage to the J-11A, with a medium blue grey upper surface, light grey lower surface, black radome, while the half ellipse grey area on the nose is overpainted with uniform camouflage 

*Known differences include:*

A Chinese IRST set located in the centreline position as with the OLS-27 in early Su-27S.

A planar array multimode radar which resembles the Phazotron Zhuk-27 series. It includes an IFF interrogator array.

An Onboard Oxygen Generator System (OBOGS). Only the most recent Russian variants have an OBOGS.

A unique glass cockpit design, with an asymmetric layout quite different from the Su-30MKK/MK2 and Su-27SMK.

An optical MAWS system claimed to operate in the UV band.

Dielectric panels on the stabilators not seen on any Russian variant.

The differences between the J-11B, Su-27SK and Su-27SMK are sufficiently great that this must be considered a unique offshoot of the Flanker family of fighters, not a subtype of the baseline Su-27SK/J-11A.

Shenyang J-11B Sino-Flanker

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## Fennecus

Engines remain the biggest obstacle for us, but once that hurdle is crossed, a number of new options will open for both the PLAAF and PAF alike. (That will include the WZ-10)


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## brahmastra

taimikhan said:


> Su-27 basically, Su-30 has canards which are absent in J-11s.
> 
> And J-11BS is the tandem eat version of Su-27.
> 
> China had local assembly contract for Su-27s not Su-30.



can you please tell what are the difference between russian su-27 and chinese j-11?


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## grey boy 2

brahmastra said:


> can you please tell what are the difference between russian su-27 and chinese j-11?



PLAAF and PLA Navy Su-27, Su-30MKK and J-11 Inventory - SinoDefence.com


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## oct605032048

brahmastra said:


> can you please tell what are the difference between russian su-27 and chinese j-11?



The latter is lighter and equipped with better radar systems and 2 WS10s.


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## xukxuk

&#19981;&#26159;&#33258;&#24049;&#23478;&#30340;&#23401;&#23376; &#20877;&#22909;&#30475; &#20063;&#30475;&#30528;&#21035;&#25197;
not your own baby 
even looks better
still feels uncomfortable


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## oct605032048

totally agree with the own child theory.


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## DaRk WaVe

taimikhan said:


> Su-27 basically, *Su-30 has canards *which are absent in J-11s.
> 
> And J-11BS is the tandem eat version of Su-27.
> 
> China had local assembly contract for Su-27s not Su-30.



not really, Su-30 has got its Variants like Su-30 MKI & su-30 MKM which have canards where as other variants like Su-30 MK & the Chinese SU-30 MKK have got no canards 


*SU-30 MK​*




*SU-30 MKI​*

*SU-30 MKM​*
and there is Difference in Shape b/w Su-27 & SU-30(with or without canards) 
here in this picture, the upper one is Su-30 while lower is Su-27...



but when we come down to Su-35 & its varients some are like Su-30 & some like Su-27 
*su-35 UB*





*su-35 bm*

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## unicorn148

abbasniazi said:


> J11 would have been an easy and tit for tat answer for SU30 MKI, i wonder why PAF didn't go for it?
> 
> May be due to export restrictions by russia, but even then, if chinese would have granted PAF access to J11 it'd have helped PAF alot to understand the strengths and weaknesses of Indian SU30 MKI.
> 
> God knows whats going through PAF minds.



dont day dream su 30 mki is far better than j11 .why do you think china is buying su 30 mkk because is more capable than J11 and every one knows that su30 mki is superior than so30 mkk


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## grey boy 2

unicorn148 said:


> dont day dream su 30 mki is far better than j11 .why do you think china is buying su 30 mkk because is more capable than J11 and every one knows that su30 mki is superior than so30 mkk



Do you ever post anythings with source or link to back up your 

claims ? If you are comparing MKI to J-11a, yes, MKI is better, but

when comparing the* J-11B *deployed in 2006 ;

Su-30MKI (110)- The Su-30MKI is one of the most advanced Flanker variants in current operation. It features a passive phased array radar, advanced FLIR and electro-optical capability, thrust-vectoring, and impressive low-speed maneuverability, thanks to the addition of canards. Hands-down, *the Su-30MKI is superior to all Flankers short of the J-11B in PLAAF service. It is difficult to compare the MKI to the J-11B however, due to their relative advantages in different areas. The Su-30MKI is about 20% heavier, and features an engine with slightly less powerful dry(non-afterburning) thrust, thus giving it a slightly lower thrust-to-weight ratio. Furthermore, the Su-30MKI also has about 8 times the radar-cross section of the J-11B. In terms of radar, the Su-30MKI has a clear advantage, and the MKI still retains a slight advantage in avionics despite major improvements to China's indigenous avionics industry. The MKI is also more maneuverable at subsonic speeds, though the J-11B has a superior climb-rate and better acceleration.*
WikiAnswers - Indian air force vs PLAAF


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## DaRk WaVe

> the Su-30MKI also has about 8 times the radar-cross section of the J-11B


  
My goodness Chinese have reduced the RCS by 8 times 

This makes J-11B, the flanker with lowest RCS

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## Wingman

emo_girl said:


> My goodness Chinese have reduced the RCS by 8 times



Man they are doin damn good


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## deep.ocean

emo_girl said:


> My goodness Chinese have reduced the *RCS by 8 times *
> 
> This makes J-11B, the flanker with lowest RCS



 Great Achievement... RCS is reduced by 8 times...
It seems they have changed Su 27 to stealth fighter using some state of the art technology.. Its really great going and i think they don't need 5th gen fighter now as they already have


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## Sravan

emo_girl said:


> My goodness Chinese have reduced the RCS by 8 times
> 
> This makes J-11B, the flanker with lowest RCS



WOW now J-11B RCS is less than F-22


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## DaRk WaVe

Sravan said:


> WOW now J-11B RCS is less than F-22



Jealous Indians 

I know its your national trait tsk tsk

U just can't digest it ehhhhh

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## Windjammer

It's some what ironic,

The SU-30 MKI was seen by the Indians as an indispensable marvel but as soon as one crashed they suddenly changed their tone to,

"No big deal, even the F-22 has also crashed".

There must be a moral there somewhere.

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## lockh33d

deep.ocean said:


> Great Achievement... RCS is reduced by 8 times...
> It seems they have changed Su 27 to stealth fighter using some state of the art technology.. Its really great going and i think they don't need 5th gen fighter now as they already have



Nope, we still need 5th gen, the J-11B still has an RCS of ~3m^2, ~80% decrease from an original Su-27 body kit, while a 5th gen aircraft should have an average RCS of ~33.3% of that of the J-11B. Hence, in the end, we still need it!

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## zagahaga

welll hate to break it to ya chinese do copy ritee? chinese did get su 30 riteeee? they reversed it ....thus makeing j 11b


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## lockh33d

zagahaga said:


> welll hate to break it to ya chinese do copy ritee? chinese did get su 30 riteeee? they reversed it ....thus makeing j 11b



Yes, we took out what was rubbish(The majority of it) and replaced it with indigenous designs. Sorry, I didn't get your post, with the e's and such

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## grey boy 2

zagahaga said:


> welll hate to break it to ya chinese do copy ritee? chinese did get su 30 riteeee? they reversed it ....thus makeing j 11b



If you wants to shoot at us, at least do a little homework, J-11B had

nothing to do with SU-30, its related to SU-27, look at the post emo

posted, SU-30 had canards, J-11B and SU-27 doesn't have.


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## Sravan

grey boy 2 said:


> If you wants to shoot at us, at least do a little homework, J-11B had
> 
> nothing to do with SU-30, its related to SU-27, look at the post emo
> 
> posted, SU-30 had canards, J-11B and SU-27 doesn't have.



Exactly he just needs to replace 30 to 27 in his sentence


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## xukxuk

Sravan said:


> Exactly he just needs to replace 30 to 27 in his sentence



exactly i feel soooo bad
this is a copy of su-27
next time we make sure to copy f-22 or something better
i know my indian friend just can't be bother to copy such a piece of crap
why not just buy from other countries
that's cheap easy and handy plus it's help the growth of the world economy
and the most impartant you can get protection from those weapon seller's country


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## SBD-3

abbasniazi said:


> J11 would have been an easy and tit for tat answer for SU30 MKI, i wonder why PAF didn't go for it?
> 
> May be due to export restrictions by russia, but even then, if chinese would have granted PAF access to J11 it'd have helped PAF alot to understand the strengths and weaknesses of Indian SU30 MKI.
> 
> God knows whats going through PAF minds.



Probably
1) PAF assesses J-10 as a more promising platform
2) The Russian Connection


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## SBD-3

emo_girl said:


> My goodness Chinese have reduced the RCS by 8 times
> 
> This makes J-11B, the flanker with lowest RCS



I think MKI has 5 and J-11B has 3 not something like 8 times more like 60% lower RCS


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## SBD-3

lockh33d said:


> Nope, we still need 5th gen, the J-11B still has an RCS of ~3m^2, ~80% decrease from an original Su-27 body kit, while a 5th gen aircraft should have an average *RCS of ~33.3% *of that of the J-11B. Hence, in the end, we still need it!



F-22 is a stealth plane and its rumored RCS is *0.10 to 0.01* far far below Flanker's. No wonder it took almost 2 decades for even US to develop such a fighter


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## SBD-3

zagahaga said:


> welll hate to break it to ya chinese do copy ritee? chinese did get su 30 riteeee? they reversed it ....thus makeing j 11b



Bhai sahib get yourself corrected.....They developed on Su-27UBK (manufactured in China as J-11) with indigenous systems. Not SU-30MKK. The airframe was similar to that of SU-27 but 70% of the components used are of Chinese origin. A further development on J-11B is newly developed J-11BS that is thought to be in the same class of SU-30


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## SBD-3

Windjammer said:


> It's some what ironic,
> 
> The SU-30 MKI was seen by the Indians as an indispensable marvel but as soon as one crashed they suddenly changed their tone to,
> 
> "No big deal, even the F-22 has also crashed".
> 
> There must be a moral there somewhere.



it doesn't matter that they crash..The planes all over the world crash....There is something wrong, when they are Busted by other plane.....Like F-22 got busted by a Viper and a EF was able to lock onto F-22 from a good distance.....I don't know about the red flag details that how many time MKI was busted by USAF


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## aimarraul

*WS-10A*







*AL-31 *

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## PWFI

good news, but bro i can't see your 1st four pictures!


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## stax

Good pictures!


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## SinoIndusFriendship

Looking good!


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## faithfulguy

I'm waiting for someone from India to claim that this is copied or photoshopped.

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## T-50

faithfulguy said:


> I'm waiting for someone from India to claim that this is copied or photoshopped.



Well everyone knows how good Chinese good in that;


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## Kompromat

Where does WS-10 stand now?


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## 592257001

It is not a PS pictures, you can see the radar warning receivers between the WS-10A engines.

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## 592257001

More original pictures:

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## TOPGUN

Awsome pics .. good job China

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## conworldus

I hope all the problems with WS-10A has been solved by now. The 2008 fiasco should never repeat again.


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## Chanakyaa

Nice Addition.


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## davis45

WS-10A&#65292;good news


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## zagahaga

there is no chance of ghetting these birds eh? i sooo badly want to see them im maratime strike role adleast 36 of them ot the russians wont allow it?


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## 592257001

zagahaga said:


> there is no chance of ghetting these birds eh? i sooo badly want to see them im maratime strike role adleast 36 of them ot the russians wont allow it?


Actually, there's nothing Russian in this J-11B after it is fitted with the domestic WS-10A. So the Russians can't say any thing about selling this bird to our pakistan friends.

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## Iggy

faithfulguy said:


> I'm waiting for someone from India to claim that this is copied or photoshopped.



Whats your obsession with India dude??


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## faithfulguy

seiko said:


> Whats your obsession with India dude??



Its just an observation. Many Indian members like to brag that India is powerful nation. This is especially true in Bharat Rakshak forum. Those guys really are annoying. If you are there, you would be regarded as a traitor for not agreeing that India can invade and split Tibet from China.

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## Iggy

faithfulguy said:


> Its just an observation. Many Indian members like to brag that India is powerful nation. This is especially true in Bharat Rakshak forum. Those guys really are annoying. If you are there, you would be regarded as a traitor for not agreeing that India can invade and split Tibet from China.



Come on man every patriotic forums are like that not only Indian..Pakistanis and Chinese forums too...you are giving an example of a forum to show us that Indians brag as powerful nation??If you read that forum carefully you can see some sane forum members too...


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## azfar

great achievement

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## faithfulguy

seiko said:


> Come on man every patriotic forums are like that not only Indian..Pakistanis and Chinese forums too...you are giving an example of a forum to show us that Indians brag as powerful nation??If you read that forum carefully you can see some sane forum members too...



if that is the case, isn't this a patriotic forum for the Pakistanis? I do not see Pakistani brag like how Indians brag in that forum. At most, the Pakistani brag half as much as Indians in this forum, never mind Bharat Rakshak. I also don't see Chinese language forum brag like that. 

In that site, I see a whole thread dedicate to what how would India occupy the Tibetan highland. The people talk like its a certainty that the Indian arm force would overwhelm China's defence and take over Tibet. Many suggested on the weapons that would be used by Indian military to performed certain tasks. But no one mentioned that China's military would at least be able to resist that. How rediculous.... But I guess that is the genuine mentality of many Indians. As that is the case, India will never progress unless the attitute of the people first change.

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## faithfulguy

But of course, India can already produce much better engines than China.

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## Merilion

faithfulguy said:


> if that is the case, isn't this a patriotic forum for the Pakistanis? I do not see Pakistani brag like how Indians brag in that forum. At most, the Pakistani brag half as much as Indians in this forum, never mind Bharat Rakshak. I also don't see Chinese language forum brag like that.
> 
> In that site, I see a whole thread dedicate to what how would India occupy the Tibetan highland. The people talk like its a certainty that the Indian arm force would overwhelm China's defence and take over Tibet. Many suggested on the weapons that would be used by Indian military to performed certain tasks. But no one mentioned that China's military would at least be able to resist that. How rediculous.... But I guess that is the genuine mentality of many Indians. As that is the case, India will never progress unless the attitute of the people first change.



congrates! u finally found BR  
this BR site is a eye opener for me to know many indians somehow have superiority complex against chinese people. i don't know why but i guess indian medias must played a big role for this? 

Back to the thread topic, ws10a is a big break through for China in engine developement though it arrived a bit too late. Many important projects like heavy military transport airplane;ship borne flighter etc depend on it.

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## faithfulguy

Merilion said:


> congrates! u finally found BR
> this BR site is a eye opener for me to know many indians somehow have superiority complex against chinese people. i don't know why but i guess indian medias must played a big role for this?
> 
> Back to the thread topic, ws10a is a big break through for China in engine developement though it arrived a bit too late. Many important projects like heavy military transport airplane;ship borne flighter etc depend on it.



For China, to borrow a line from the Indian guys in here, better late then never. 

This is by far the most common line posted by Indians when they talk about their weapon sytem.

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## Iggy

faithfulguy said:


> if that is the case, isn't this a patriotic forum for the Pakistanis? I do not see Pakistani brag like how Indians brag in that forum. At most, the Pakistani brag half as much as Indians in this forum, never mind Bharat Rakshak. I also don't see Chinese language forum brag like that.
> 
> In that site, I see a whole thread dedicate to what how would India occupy the Tibetan highland. The people talk like its a certainty that the Indian arm force would overwhelm China's defence and take over Tibet. Many suggested on the weapons that would be used by Indian military to performed certain tasks. But no one mentioned that China's military would at least be able to resist that. How rediculous.... But I guess that is the genuine mentality of many Indians. As that is the case, India will never progress unless the attitute of the people first change.




Offcource you will see only Indians bragging about everything and anything..Never mind...There are lots of guys told you that India already considers Tibet as a part of China but you are not interested in listening to it and you dont want to know anything...you are just like some Chinese members who want to bash India ..but claiming to be in a middle ground..


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## kvLin

seiko said:


> Offcource you will see only Indians bragging about everything and anything..Never mind...There are lots of guys told you that India already considers Tibet as a part of China but you are not interested in listening to it and you dont want to know anything...you are just like some Chinese members who want to bash India ..but claiming to be in a middle ground..



dear seiko,

those indian warriors were just around, if you came earlier.

a classic episode could be like this:

Indians:why superior?we can buy weapons everywhere,you search nowhere outside Russia.
Chinese: we produce,you buy.
Indians:everything you made is copywork.
Chinese: Copy it if you can.
Indians:no need,we're working on our own craft.
Chinese:like the Late Coming Aircraft? no it's too slow to catch up JF-17,let alone J-10.
Indians: USAF will beat you in no time.

India wins.

or maybe this:

Indian: why superior? we will have new education program...
Chinese: how's your literacy rate VS China's?
Indina: we will have better proportion of young population...
Chinese: can you bear your total population in 2050?
India:we will build more railways to the border area...
Chinese:and you will surpass China in reducing population under poverty line?

India: shut up! we're the world's biggest democracy you are a communist country, and that's why we will beat you!

India wins again.


Ok, there's an old Chinese satire: no learning,no fear.

to be frank, we have also lots of empty heads, but unlike in India, if 10&#37; of them brag up how J-10 is unbeatable, they will sink in the saliva of the overwhelming rest.

I have no malice toward India (which is a neighbor,a companion we should've embrace), but believe me, if today's india is still full of such people, how will China lose the game?

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## Martian2

kvLin said:


> dear seiko,
> 
> those indian warriors were just around, if you came earlier.
> 
> a classic episode could be like this:
> 
> Indians:why superior?we can buy weapons everywhere,you search nowhere outside Russia.
> Chinese: we produce,you buy.
> Indians:everything you made is copywork.
> Chinese: Copy it if you can.
> Indians:no need,we're working on our own craft.
> Chinese:like the Late Coming Aircraft? no it's too slow to catch up JF-17,let alone J-10.
> Indians: USAF will beat you in no time.
> 
> India wins.
> 
> or maybe this:
> 
> Indian: why superior? we will have new education program...
> Chinese: how's your literacy rate VS China's?
> Indina: we will have better proportion of young population...
> Chinese: can you bear your total population in 2050?
> India:we will build more railways to the border area...
> Chinese:and you will surpass China in reducing population under poverty line?
> 
> India: shut up! we're the world's biggest democracy you are a communist country, and that's why we will beat you!
> 
> India wins again.
> 
> 
> Ok, there's an old Chinese satire: no learning,no fear.
> 
> to be frank, we have also lots of empty heads, but unlike in India, if 10% of them brag up how J-10 is unbeatable, they will sink in the saliva of the overwhelming rest.
> 
> I have no malice toward India (which is a neighbor,a companion we should've embrace), but believe me, if today's india is still full of such people, how will China lose the game?



I never thought of classifying conversations into archetypes. With the two examples that you provided, I agree that India wins the argument. In further archetypes, India is also likely to win the argument.

However, in the final analysis, no number of winning arguments can produce this:

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## zagahaga

SOOO for real ? we can get j 11b russia cant say nothing or is it another fan boy made obsession


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## Honor

Martian2 said:


> I never thought of classifying conversations into archetypes. With the two examples that you provided, I agree that India wins the argument. In further archetypes, India is also likely to win the argument.
> 
> However, in the final analysis, no number of winning arguments can produce this:
> 
> MvpPknmHGAM[/media] - Chinese Space Walk - 2008



Indian : Thats a fake space walk video!

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## Iggy

kvLin said:


> dear seiko,
> 
> those indian warriors were just around, if you came earlier.
> 
> a classic episode could be like this:
> 
> Indians:why superior?we can buy weapons everywhere,you search nowhere outside Russia.
> Chinese: we produce,you buy.
> Indians:everything you made is copywork.
> Chinese: Copy it if you can.
> Indians:no need,we're working on our own craft.
> Chinese:like the Late Coming Aircraft? no it's too slow to catch up JF-17,let alone J-10.
> Indians: USAF will beat you in no time.
> 
> India wins.
> 
> or maybe this:
> 
> Indian: why superior? we will have new education program...
> Chinese: how's your literacy rate VS China's?
> Indina: we will have better proportion of young population...
> Chinese: can you bear your total population in 2050?
> India:we will build more railways to the border area...
> Chinese:and you will surpass China in reducing population under poverty line?
> 
> India: shut up! we're the world's biggest democracy you are a communist country, and that's why we will beat you!
> 
> India wins again.
> 
> 
> Ok, there's an old Chinese satire: no learning,no fear.
> 
> to be frank, we have also lots of empty heads, but unlike in India, if 10% of them brag up how J-10 is unbeatable, they will sink in the saliva of the overwhelming rest.
> 
> I have no malice toward India (which is a neighbor,a companion we should've embrace), but believe me, if today's india is still full of such people, how will China lose the game?




kvLin buddy i am not saying that Indians don't do it..but why pointing out Indians only.you can see both Chinese and Pakistanis brag too..but that guy only see Indians bragging and he is unnecessarily
putting Indians in every thread making it an who dick is bigger contest..whats the purpose? In another thread he was talking about Indias growing poverty which is not related to that thread and one guy Xinix given him detailed account of how poverty is reduced in India,then suddenly he came to say its offtopic .. This thread is about indigenous engine of China why he has to drag India in to it??


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## Martian2

Honor said:


> Indian : Thats a fake space walk video!



See? Indians win another argument. How in the world do you prove that a video is authentic beyond the shadow of any doubt? How do you prove a negative? How can you prove that there has been no photoshopping at all?

There's no beating those clever Indians.


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## illuminatus

Martian2 said:


> See? Indians win another argument. How in the world do you prove that a video is authentic beyond the shadow of any doubt? How do you prove a negative? How can you prove that there has been no photoshopping at all?
> 
> There's no beating those clever Indians.



See? Indian is just high and believes he won another argument. How about if I ask you to prove to me that the video is unauthentic beyond the shadow of any doubt? How can you prove that there has been any photoshopping at all?

Just high as usual.


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## Martian2

illuminatus said:


> See? Indian is just high and believes he won another argument. How about if I ask you to prove to me that the video is unauthentic beyond the shadow of any doubt? How can you prove that there has been any photoshopping at all?
> 
> Just high as usual.



If I may, I would like to engage my mental Indian-simulacrum.

Firstly, we Indians raised the photoshopping issue first. You're just copying our argument. See? We told you Chinese are copiers. Therefore your argument is invalid or loses strength.

Secondly, since we Indians cannot prove "that the video is unauthentic beyond the shadow of any doubt" and you Chinese cannot prove that the video is authentic, we offer you a compromise. Since neither of us can prove our cases, let's throw out the video footage altogether. Given the lack of officially-accepted video footage by both parties, we Indians have shown that there is no authenticated Chinese spacewalk.

Thirdly, we are clever Indians. How dare you challenge us to prove "that the video is unauthentic beyond the shadow of any doubt?" Don't force us to torture you Chinese with another Indian zinger. Do you really want us to punish you with: "those taikonauts are Communists!!!"

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## grey boy 2

illuminatus said:


> See? Indian is just high and believes he won another argument. How about if I ask you to prove to me that the video is unauthentic beyond the shadow of any doubt? How can you prove that there has been any photoshopping at all?
> 
> Just high as usual.



Buddy, he is a Chinese, his post was just being sarcastic against 

Indians comments

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## Martian2

grey boy 2 said:


> Buddy, he is a Chinese, his post was just being sarcastic against
> 
> Indians comments



It's two hours from the New Year. I'm in a pretty happy mood. Thought I might have a little fun. Of course, I do it with the full knowledge that my fellow netizens from India will punish me later for it.

But hey, I can worry about that next year. Right now, it's "Hindi-Chini bhai-bhai." I bet I'm going to get into trouble for that too.

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## grey boy 2

Martian2 said:


> It's two hours from the New Year. I'm in a pretty happy mood. Thought I might have a little fun. Of course, I do it with the full knowledge that my fellow netizens from India will punish me later for it.
> 
> But hey, I can worry about that next year. Right now, it's "Hindi-Chini bhai-bhai." I bet I'm going to get into trouble for that too.



Buddy, who care what will happen next year ? too far ahead to 

worry with !! Happy New year again to all members.

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## funner



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## KSRaj

faithfulguy said:


> if that is the case, isn't this a patriotic forum for the Pakistanis? I do not see Pakistani brag like how Indians brag in that forum. At most, the Pakistani brag half as much as Indians in this forum, never mind Bharat Rakshak. I also don't see Chinese language forum brag like that.



This is the same forum where I have seen how JF-17's are superior to MKIs. The best IMO however was a report that said that India wanted to buy JF-17's from Pakistan but decided to drop the idea after Mumbai attack.

I agree Indians are not any exception when it comes to bragging. And why are we just blaming Indians and Pakistanis. There are enough Chinese posters (even though there are honourable exceptions) who have taken bragging to new levels!

Its not surprising if you havent seen the Chinese brag here, you are blinded by your emotions mate.

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## faithfulguy

KSRaj said:


> This is the same forum where I have seen how JF-17's are superior to MKIs. The best IMO however was a report that said that India wanted to buy JF-17's from Pakistan but decided to drop the idea after Mumbai attack.
> 
> I agree Indians are not any exception when it comes to bragging. And why are we just blaming Indians and Pakistanis. There are enough Chinese posters (even though there are honourable exceptions) who have taken bragging to new levels!
> 
> Its not surprising if you havent seen the Chinese brag here, you are blinded by your emotions mate.




If I say that US is the most powerful country in the world, am I bragging or stating a fact. 

Did you remember what Howard Cassell said about Mohammad Ali when Ali said he was the greatest?

When Chinese member said that they can handle India, they are just stating a fact. Every country, even the US, believe that India 1:1 is no match for Chicoms. India needs US and Russian help.


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## Lankan Ranger

*New Chinese J-11 fighters are being produced for PLANAF *

A British magazine said on Monday that new Chinese single- and twin-seat J-11 fighters are probably being produced for the People's Liberation Army Navy Air Force (PLANAF).According to Jane's Defence Weekly, some pictures posted this month on Chinese military websites showed J-11s outside the Shenyang Aircraft Corporation factory.

The J-11s are in a very light grey livery consistent with the PLANAF's Sukhoi Su-30MKK2 fighters, 24 (one regiment) of which were delivered in 2004, Janes said.The single-seat fighters, a new variant of the J-11B and designated as J-11BH, are the modified version of Sukhoi's Su-27SK. A version of the twin-seat J-11BS, which will reportedly be called J-11BSH in PLANAF service, can also be seen in these pictures, the magazine added.

Russia had expressed dissatisfaction on Chinas "appropriation" of Sukhoi's design, and Moscow also expressed doubt about whether China could copy the Su-27SK or go on to produce improved versions.

The J-11B has a slightly lighter airframe than the Russian original, and there is speculation that the J-11B is possibly made by greater use of composites, and new Chinese-designed radar.

ASIAN DEFENCE: New Chinese J-11 fighters are being produced for PLANAF

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## aimarraul

J-11

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## new wave

Oh great, J-11s,( J-15) is here !! that mean our air-craft carrier won't be too far away ?

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## ao333

new wave said:


> Oh great, J-11s,( J-15) is here !! that mean our air-craft carrier won't be too far away ?



Actually, carrier-borne fighters are always ready long before ACs.


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## below_freezing

amazing planes. AESA radar test?


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## SpArK

Nice pics. thanks for sharing... Russian fighters are sexy.


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## shining eyes

BENNY said:


> Nice pics. thanks for sharing... Russian fighters are sexy.



are these russian???? 
*THESE ARE CHINESE*

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## new wave

Chinese Military Aviation | China Air Force


A J-11BS prototype (#532?) was seen parked at the CFTE airfield in preparation for another test flight. *Based on J-11B, this tandem-seat trainer/strike version has been speculated to be in the same class of Su-30MKK and American F-15E, with a WSO sitting in the backseat. It is thought to feature an enhanced fire-control system with additional AG modes. Besides PL-8 and PL-12 AAMs, it could also carry the same precision guided weapons being carried by JH-7A, such as KD-88 ASM and LS-500J LGB. Like J-11B, the aircraft is also powered by two WS-10 turbofan engines. Compared to JH-7A, J-11BS is expected to have a more powerful radar, a greater weapon load and a longer range. Once in production, the aircraft could eventually replace the earlier Su-30MKK.* The first prototype of J-11BS was built by the end of 2007. It was rumored that one prototype crashed during a test flight in 2009. J-11BS is believed to serve as a fighter trainer for J-11B pilots initially. It was rumored that PLAN has ordered a few J-11BSs (J-11BSH?).

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## farhan_9909

gr8...

............


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## ao333

new wave said:


> Chinese Military Aviation | China Air Force
> 
> 
> A J-11BS prototype (#532?) was seen parked at the CFTE airfield in preparation for another test flight. *Based on J-11B, this tandem-seat trainer/strike version has been speculated to be in the same class of Su-30MKK and American F-15E, with a WSO sitting in the backseat. It is thought to feature an enhanced fire-control system with additional AG modes. Besides PL-8 and PL-12 AAMs, it could also carry the same precision guided weapons being carried by JH-7A, such as KD-88 ASM and LS-500J LGB. Like J-11B, the aircraft is also powered by two WS-10 turbofan engines. Compared to JH-7A, J-11BS is expected to have a more powerful radar, a greater weapon load and a longer range. Once in production, the aircraft could eventually replace the earlier Su-30MKK.* The first prototype of J-11BS was built by the end of 2007. It was rumored that one prototype crashed during a test flight in 2009. J-11BS is believed to serve as a fighter trainer for J-11B pilots initially. It was rumored that PLAN has ordered a few J-11BSs (J-11BSH?).



The source you're quoting from is a fanboy site.


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## Speeder 2

aimarraul said:


> these information all come true eventually J-10B, J-11B, J-11BS ,J-15.most fanboys can easily separate those usefull informations from someone's personal work,do you really believe some fanboy get so close to SAC's airport and shoot these pics?



I am not worried about airframe, materials, radar, etc... just this WS-10A. How reliable is it?

Futhermore, on this naval J-15(the newest offspring of Su-30familytree?): Why can't they just develop a straightforward naval version of J-XX once and for all with drastically improved RCS, instead of this 4th gen J-15, bearing in mind that whatever naval version PLAN will have must soon face the challenge of F-35 class.


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## ao333

Speeder 2 said:


> I am not worried about airframe, materials, radar, etc... just this WS-10A. How reliable is it?
> 
> Futhermore, on this naval J-15(the newest offspring of Su-30familytree?): Why can't they just develop a straightforward naval version of J-XX once and for all with drastically improved RCS, instead of this 4th gen J-15, bearing in mind that whatever naval version PLAN will have must soon face the challenge of F-35 class.



It's not in any military's interest to be Indian. This is China's first carrier-borne aircraft. The Chinese already spent a long time on the Su-33. It's a 4-generation leap. Going 5th would be Tejas-style.

Are you serious about challenging the F-35? The Ruskies don't even got those. It'd be another 15 years until that happens. My guess is that you guys will joint develop one with Russia.


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## ChineseTiger1986

ao333 said:


> It's not in any military's interest to be Indian. This is China's first carrier-borne aircraft. The Chinese already spent a long time on the Su-33. It's a 4-generation leap. Going 5th would be Tejas-style.
> 
> Are you serious about challenging the F-35? The Ruskies don't even got those. It'd be another 15 years until that happens. *My guess is that you guys will joint develop one with Russia.*



We won't have any joint development with Ruskies in the future, it is same for them. 

F-35 is just some overpriced toy, nothing intimadating to PLAAF. But I have to admit that X-37 is unbelievable, and we won't come up with anything close in another 10-20 years.


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## Zee-Gen

Something wrong with the pic&#8230;&#8230;..it looks like planes are just standing on ground without having there landing gear open&#8230;..!!!







as anyone can see the height of the plane from ground....!!!


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## SinoIndusFriendship

^^^ Flanker's front landing gears are tucked far behind the nose cone. Look at the photo on the bottom.


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## Sanchez

The first regiment of J-11? Different colors of the nose cones implicated different radars. Light grey is AESA, black KJ series PDs and others older PDs. The first plane in the picture is a J-11a with partial upgrade to B standards, if you look at the painting.


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## nightrider_saulat

looks some what very similar to SU-27


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## Peregrine

Hi 
why is there a radiation sign on the nose cones, what does that mean?


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## no_name

^^^ Radar is high powered so still not too good to get too close.

Its emits radiation like a microwave oven


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## nightrider_saulat

J-11 is just liie SU-27 i think SU-30MKK is the best flanker available today in PlaAF


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## applesauce

nightrider_saulat said:


> J-11 is just liie SU-27 i think SU-30MKK is the best flanker available today in PlaAF



SU-30MK2 i think


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## ao333

applesauce said:


> SU-30MK2 i think



Same thing. One is for ground and the other is for naval strike. In terms of usefulness, I'd say MKK. Though, you'd need both for Taiwan.


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## gambit

> Peregrine said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi
> why is there a radiation sign on the nose cones, what does that mean?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> no_name said:
> 
> 
> 
> ^^^ Radar is high powered so still not too good to get too close.
> 
> Its emits radiation like a microwave oven
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

There should be a weight-on-wheels (WoW) switch system that will reduce radar output every time there is -- weight on wheels. This is a safety mechanism. The WoW switches also remove power from pitot heat, which is to heat up the pitot and any air data probes, including angle-of-attack (AoA) probes. The probes heat up very quick and will give permanent third degree burn scars. Anyway...So the WoW system is supposed to reduce radar output and remove pitot heat on ground. In the case of when there is a need for full radar operation on ground, the aircraft can be on jacks or the WoW circuit breakers opened, which is the equivalent of flight. The pitot heat CB is also opened so they do not heat up. Warning cones are then arranged at some distance in front of the aircraft and all is supposed to walk or drive around these cones.

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## razgriz19

shining eyes said:


> are these russian????
> *THESE ARE CHINESE*



dont put stress on ur head, he probably meant russian DESIGN!


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## razgriz19

zeshukhan said:


> Something wrong with the pic..it looks like planes are just standing on ground without having there landing gear open..!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> as anyone can see the height of the plane from ground....!!!



nothing is wrong with pic! its just because of the angle of camera..


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## 592257001

Speeder 2 said:


> I am not worried about airframe, materials, radar, etc... just this WS-10A. How reliable is it?
> 
> Futhermore, on this naval J-15(the newest offspring of Su-30familytree?): Why can't they just develop a straightforward naval version of J-XX once and for all with drastically improved RCS, instead of this 4th gen J-15, bearing in mind that whatever naval version PLAN will have must soon face the challenge of F-35 class.



WS-10A, to tell u the truth, is not reliable as the Russian ones yet (some J-10B have been sent back to AVIC factory lately because of their reliability issue). J-XX will take a long time to develop, even for China. Varvag will have to wait for it then, and PLAN officials do not want to see this happening


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## Lankan Ranger

*China now offers complete accessory packages for its J-11 fighters*

In addition to engines and avionics, China now offers complete accessory packages for its J-11 family of heavy fighters.











China Defense Blog: Cup holders and Accessories

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## farhan_9909

Wow

great
we should go for this aircraft and say no to any other single engine fighter..
jf-17 is enought to replace all old aircraft


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## SomeGuy

^^ I don't think its for export.


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## syntax_error

^^
But the Thread says ... China offers .... whom ? no one offers themselves ... i guess its for export


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## Ammyy

If they offer it so how j11 will be beneficial to Pakistan??
Its totally based on old design of su 27 .


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## Nahraf

I don't understand why would PAF not buy two-engine fighter. Same goes for PAEC which is always looking to build 300 MW nuclear power plants while the rest of the world build 600MW plus power plants. They both seem to have limited vision.


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## SomeGuy

syntax_error said:


> ^^
> But the Thread says ... China offers .... whom ? no one offers themselves ... i guess its for export



But the article is taken from a blog site.

As far as I know, no chinese official has confirmed that J-11 is for export. If anybody knows differently, then please provide a link.


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## no_name

I think they are just selling the accessories, not necessary for or with J-11.

The pic has been cropped, The title of poster actually says accessories for advanced platform, not J-11 specifically.


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## Sanchez

I don't think that J-11B is able to carry all the weapons. It is an air superiority fighter configuration. JH-7A is the platform that all Chinese strike weapons can be used.


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## applesauce

their selling the missiles, rockets and gun that can be fitted to a su-27 type aircraft not the aircraft itself


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## xiazhi59362008

DRDO said:


> If they offer it so how j11 will be beneficial to Pakistan??
> Its totally based on old design of su 27 .



This is not the key, the key is from this that we can produce their own world-class fighter. And our friends.


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## SBD-3

*History*
In the 1970s, Shenyang Aircraft Factory proposed to design a light fighter powered by the British Rolls-Royce Spey 512 engine, but otherwise similar to the MiG-19 then in service. Known as the J-11, the project was abandoned due to difficulty in obtaining the engines&#8230;..
Codenamed `Flanker' by NATO, the J-11 [Su-27 / Su-30MKK / Su- 30MK2] is a multi-role fighter bomber and air superiority aircraft which can also be used in the maritime strike role. The Flanker has an operational radius of around 1500 km, and is equipped with an in-flight refueling facility extending their radius by another 500 km. Although normally configured for conventional operations, the J-11 could provide China with a high-performance nuclear-capable strike aircraft.
The acquisition of Su-27, after China had attempted for years to develop the J-10 aircraft with equivalent technology to perform similar functions, demonstrates a lack of confidence in domestic industrial capabilities.
Since China received its first 4th-generation Su-27 fighter in 1992, training, tactics and operational concepts progressed slowly as China integrated the new technologies and capabilities into the force structure. This protracted learning phase has allowed China to prepare for the introduction of larger numbers of 4th-generation aircraft into its inventories. By 2002 new Su-27s and Su-30s had been more rapidly integrated into operational units. Meanwhile, air combat tactics continue to evolve and training became more advanced.
Jane's Defense Weekly reported on March 31, 2004 that by early 2004, China had received some 154 Sukhoi aircraft (this number does not include roughly 100 aircraft built in China), mostly Su-27SK fighters, and that by the end of 2004 roughly 273 Sukhoi fighters will be in service

*1st Step of Dragon, Su-27SK Purchases*

In 1991 China purchased an initial batch of 24 single-seat SU-27s for about $1 billion which were delivered in late 1992 and based at Wuhu Air Base, 250 kilometers west of Shanghai. In May 1995 China purchased a second batch of 24 SU-27 aircraft through Russia's main state-run arms exporting company Rosvooruzheniye. These were delivered in April 1996 and based at Suixi Air Base in Southern China. The 48 Su-27-type aircraft include 36 one-seat Su-27SK manufactured in Komsomolsk-on-Amur and 12 two-seat Su-27UB manufactured in Irkutsk, worth a total of 1.7 billion dollars.
In February 1996 Moscow and Beijing reached a $2.2 billion agreement for Chinese co-production of the Sukhoi Su-27. Under the initial agreement China would produce up to 200 aircraft [without the right to reexport the jets to third countries] from Russian-made components over three to five years. The total cost of the contract is $1.5 billion, including $650 million for technical documents and $850 million for parts, instruments and equipment provided by Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aviation Enterprise imeni Yuriy Gagarin [KnAAPO], which is to deliver around 30 percent of all completing parts for 200 Chinese SU-27SK jets. Russia has licensed coproduction of Su-27s to the Shenyang Aircraft Company, which can produce fifteen to twenty per year. In the period 1998-2000 Shenyang planned to assemble only 15 Su- 27SK fighters of the 200 permitted under the terms of the contract. The first two aircraft built at Shenyang flew at the end of 1998. By 2004, China had only received components kits for 95 aircraft, as a contract covering the additional 105 kits was still pending.

*A New Beginning, J-11:*

The new J-11 is a Chinese version of the Sukhoi Su-27SK air superiority fighter. Sukhoi originally provided kits to Shenyang Aircraft Corporation upon an agreement in 1995, but over time there were to be increasing Chinese content in the aircraft, with up to 70&#37; of all Su-27 ordered by the PLAAF to be Chinese-made. It has been reported that Sukhoi agreed to an upgrade program, allegedly in 2001, with improved radar and attack avionics.
However, in 2004, Russian media reported that Shenyang co-production of the basic J-11 was stopped after around 100 examples were built. The PLAAF later revealed a mock-up of an upgraded multirole version of the J-11 in mid-2002. It was equipped with Chinese anti-ship and PL-12 air-to-air missiles presumably for the role of a maritime strike aircraft.

*Dragon gets better claws, J-11 upgrades:*

The Chinese-built, Chinese variant of the Su-27SK with 70% components made in China, with some improvements over the original Su-27SK in the following areas: radar, flight instrumentation and added air-to-surface attack capability.
&#8226;	Radar: the original N001 radar on Su-27SK purchased by China in the 1990s is replaced by its successor, N001V, which like N001, can also simultaneously track 10 targets. However, when engaging a target out of the 10 tracked, the original N001 radar would lose all of the rest 9 targets tracked, and must restart a new tracking process after the engagement. N001V radar on J-11 overcomes this shortcoming so that during the engagement, the rest 9 targets tracked would not be lost. The major internal structural difference between the two radars is that the original TS100 processor in the older N001 radar is replaced by a more capable TS101M processor in the newer N001V radar.
&#8226;	Flight instrumentation: in comparison to Su-27SK with only one small CRT multifunction display (MFD), J-11 has a total of two by adding an additional one directly atop of the original small CRT MFD at the top right corner of the flight instrumentation dashboard. This new small CRT MFD is about the same size as the original one on Su-27SK, and it is located to the right of HUD.
&#8226;	Additional air-to-surface attack capability: The additional MFD is mainly used to control the electro-optically guided precision munitions such as TV guided or ImIR guided missiles in attacking ground and sea targets, since the domestic Chinese electro-optical pods and electro-optical guided precision munitions are extremely difficult to be directly integrated into the Su-27SK. The images and information for the electrical-optically guided munitions, as well as those provided by the domestic Chinese electro-optical pods cannot be displayed on the original CRT MFD of Su-27SK, and they can only be displayed on the additional CRT MFD added. Despite this added air-to-surface attack capability, it must be noted; however, J-11 still lacks the full air-to-surface attack capability of later models because due to the limitation of the radar, the radar guided air-to surface missiles cannot be deployed.

*It gets better and better, J-11A:
*
J-11A is a further improvement with further radar and flight instrumentation upgrade, most notably with the adoption of EFIS in its avionics.
&#8226;	Radar: The N001V radar on J-11 is replaced by its successor, N001VE, which has the same tracking capability like its predecessor. The radar improvement is that in comparison to the older N001V radar which is only capable of single target engagement, N001VE is capable of simultaneously engaging two of the ten targets tracked with semi-active radar homing air-to-air missiles. The major internal structural difference between the two radars is that the original TS101M processor in the older N001V radar is replaced by a more capable BCVM-486-6 processor of the Baguet series processor in the newer N001VE radar.
&#8226;	HMS: An improved domestic Chinese helmet mounted sights (HMS) first begun to appear on J-11A, which soon became standard on all versions of J-11, including retrofitting earlier J-11.
&#8226;	EFIS: Most of the analogue dial indicators of the original Su-27SK are eliminated, replaced by four color MFDs, which are part of the overall EFIS system designed by China Aviation Industry Corporation I. There are three large MFDs that take most of the space of the flight instrumentation dashboard, with the MFD in the center is in a slightly lower position than the other two on the sides. A slightly smaller color MFD is located below the three MFDs, to the bottom right corner of the flight instrumentation dashboard.

*A new dawn, J-11B:*

This is the advanced version which uses more Chinese components, including radar, engine, and missiles. The chief program engineer for J-11B is Mr. Guo Dianman (&#37101;&#27583;&#28385. China is interested in reducing its reliance on foreign technology for both cost reasons and a desire to improve its domestic research and design. It is reported that one regiment of J-11Bs are currently in service, but this seems to contradict with the latest information provided by the Chinese government: In May, 2007, the existence of J-11B was finally acknowledged by the Chinese government for the first time when the state-run Chinese TV stations first aired the report on J-11B in PLAAF service. However, the official Chinese report claims that there are only two squadrons of J-11Bs in service, instead of a regiment, which is consisted of three squadrons (as of end of 2007). According to the Chinese report, which is agreed by some western sources such as Jane's Information Group, the J-11B is superior to Su-27SK in the following areas:
&#8226;	The wide adoption of composite material (mainly carbon fiber) for the surfaces, reducing the weight of the aircraft for more than 700 kg, while the life of the composite part is increased over 10,000 hours in comparison to the original part built from steel.
&#8226;	Redesigned air inlets of engine intakes to reduce the radar cross section, this coupled with the adoption of composite material, and application of radar absorbent material has reduced the radar cross section (RCS) of 15 square meters of Su-27SK to just >3 square meters of J-11B.
&#8226;	Full air-to-surface / sea capability is added and J-11B is able to launch various precision guided air-to-surface and air-to-sea munitions.
&#8226;	Certified to be equipped with WS-10 (will be upgraded to WS-10A in the future) turbofan engine, which is claimed to be cheaper to operate than AL-31F.
&#8226;	Incorporation of on-board oxygen generating system (OBOGS): With the exception of Su-35 and Su-37, J-11B is the first of the Su-27 family to incorporate such technology. Due to the adoption of western style design features such as fully digitized computerized controls and solid state micro-electronics, Chinese claimed that the domestic OBOGS is superior than the analog system Russia offered to China.
&#8226;	A Chinese multifunctional pulse-Doppler fire-control radar reportedly capable of tracking 6~8 targets and engaging 4 of them simultaneously.
&#8226;	Fully digitized solid-state avionics have replaced the analogue set of the Su-27SK. In the mid-2007, the Chinese governmental television station CCTV-7 released news clips of Chinese pilots in the cockpits of J-11B, with the LCD of glass cockpit of J-11B clearly visible, despite that the official report itself only claimed replacing the original avionics with domestic Chinese fully digitized solid-state avionics, and nothing of EFIS or glass cockpit was mentioned. In comparison to the earlier EFIS on J-11A, the most obvious difference is that LCD MFDs on J-11B are aligned in a straight line, instead of the middle one being slightly lower. The arrangement, appearance and layout of MFDs and EFIS of J-11B are similar to the general design concept of the west.
&#8226;	Missile Approach Warning System.

*General characteristics*

&#8226;	Crew: 1
&#8226;	Length: 21.9 m (72 ft 0 in)
&#8226;	Wingspan : 14.70 m (48 ft 3 in)
&#8226;	Height: 5.92 m (19 ft 6 in)
&#8226;	Wing area: 62.04 m&#178; (667.8 ft&#178
&#8226;	Empty weight: 16,870 kg (37,192 lb)
&#8226;	Loaded weight: 23,140 kg (51,010 lb)
&#8226;	Max takeoff weight : 33,000 kg (73,000 lb)
&#8226;	Powerplant: 2&#215; Lyulka AL-31F or Woshan WS-10A "Taihang" turbofans
o	Dry thrust: 74.5 kN / 89.17 kN (16,800 lbs / 20,050 lbs) each
o	Thrust with afterburner: 123 kN / 129.4 kN (27,600 lbs / 29,101 lbs) each

*Performance*

&#8226;	Maximum speed : Mach 2.35 (2,500 km/h, 1,600 mph)
&#8226;	Range : 3,720 km (2,010 nm, 2,310 mi)
&#8226;	Combat radius: 2,000 km (1,240 mi)
&#8226;	Service ceiling : 19,000 m (62,523 ft)
&#8226;	Rate of climb : >325 m/s (64,000 ft/min)
&#8226;	Wing loading : 371.0 kg/m&#178; (76 lb/ft&#178
&#8226;	Thrust/weight : Dry: 0.66/With afterburner: 1.09
&#8226; G-limit: 9 g

*Armament*

&#8226;	Guns: 1&#215; 30 mm (1.18 in) Gryazev-Shipunov GSh-30-1 cannon
&#8226;	Hardpoints: 10: 2 under fuselage, 2 under air ducts, 4 under wings, 2 on wingtips with provisions to carry combinations of:
o	Missiles:
&#61607;	PL-12
&#61607;	PL-9
&#61607;	PL-8
&#61607;	Vympel R-27
&#61607;	Vympel R-73
o	Rockets: Unguided rocket launcher
o	Bombs: Free-fall cluster bombs

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## Stealth

^

Whatever anyone say still this aircraft (stamp of Russia) because of its shape and previous components


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## Jazzbot

nice detailed analysis, thanks for sharing.

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## SBD-3

Stealth said:


> ^
> 
> Whatever anyone say still this aircraft (stamp of Russia) because of its shape and previous components



Russian behaviour is more like, "why did you get my pie!"

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## mDumb

<Russian behaviour is more like, "why did you get my pie!">

No, I think it's "Holy sh&t how did they do it so quickly!!!! We were planning to squeeze moh dough but got no moh dough. Sh&t we better sell something else quick 'cause we got no dough."

Just wondering what would Russia do if the Chinese military is stop buying Russian military sh&t? Nuclear blackmail?

I think it's time for the Chinese military to stop using Russian military sh&t technology. They should do what the US do buy the sh&t for analytical purposes only to counter it.


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## applesauce

mDumb said:


> <Russian behaviour is more like, "why did you get my pie!">
> 
> No, I think it's "Holy sh&t how did they do it so quickly!!!! We were planning to squeeze moh dough but got no moh dough. Sh&t we better sell something else quick 'cause we got no dough."
> 
> Just wondering what would Russia do if the Chinese military is stop buying Russian military sh&t? Nuclear blackmail?
> 
> I think it's time for the Chinese military to stop using Russian military sh&t technology. They should do what the US do buy the sh&t for analytical purposes only to counter it.



blackmailing another mature thermonuclear power is a bad, bad idea


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## Jazzbot

applesauce said:


> blackmailing another mature thermonuclear power is a bad, bad idea



even worst idea lol


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## no_name

A more better idea is to 'gift' some arms when our good neighbour comrade buy oil from us Russians.

Buy weapon conditions attached when you buy natural resources


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## M8R

China should keep good relations with Russia otherwise US might play Russia against China.


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## no_name

^^^ I don't have doubt that behind the scenes these three are always pushing each against another. It's a fine balance, Each of them will try to pull down the strongest, but at the same time also keep an eye on the number two. It will be like this whether US and/or Russia and/or China is/are the superpower(s). At the least the others will still remain a major player.


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## Lankan Ranger

*J-11 Over Tibet*

The PLAAF is training its J-11s from the 97th Regiment, 33rd Fighter Division, ChangeDu Air Force, over Tibet for the first time in its history. 

Some might find it hard to believe, but there is no permanent PLAAF unit commissioned in Tibet and the PLAAF has never exercised it's modern fighter fleet over that region until now. 

Most of the J-7s found in the Lhasa-Gongar airport were rotated in from elsewhere on a per tour basis. However, at a time of crisis, the Chinese military could transport its military assets via the newly constructed Qinghai-Tibet Railway.












China Defense Blog: J-11 Over Tibet.

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## no_name

Huh never knew they never had a permanent airforce unit in Tibet


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## aimarraul

thank god,Finally CCP have come to realize that blind concession can't help china escape from the war


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## friendly_troll96

Omg, those aircraft look so exotic  so killer! 
If I were a 'female aircraft', Id ask them out on a date. Theyve got some huge packages  the packages to die for!


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## True_Pakistan_Zindabad

You see such a strategic territory which the whole world is after is being patrolled by an aircraft that isn't F-16. We too can get off this drug with a little discipline like the Chinese.


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## Akasa

*IT'S NOT THE BASIC J-11. THE VERTICAL TAIL STABILIZERS ARE NOT PARALLEL.*








Looks a hell lot like the aircraft on the left (which would make it a J-11C): (the one on the right is the J-11D)

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## SomeGuy

Cool.

It's still quite difficult to tell anything from the image other than the vertical stabilisers are not parallel. But at least it doesn't look like the usual speculative photoshops or fanboy drawings you normally post.

Is there a link to the original video?


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## siegecrossbow

There may be some substance to the stealth flanker concept after all. Canted tails are a must for RCS reduction.

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## CardSharp

siegecrossbow said:


> There may be some substance to the stealth flanker concept after all. Canted tails are a must for RCS reduction.



Stop gap most likely.


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## maxx

found here http://bbs.tiexue.net/post2_2424920_1.html

Sinosoldier, why do you keep misleading people!?

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## Luftwaffe

Why would a plane like that be a stop gap? Structural modification of su-27/su-30
Uh how many J-11 Variants my God this is getting too confusing.


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## conworldus

The Su-27 is a good platform. We can add some stealth features to it to make a cheap version of fifth gen fighter. It won't fight off F-22 but it will be a perfect thing to export to countries that can't afford J-XX.

Now having said that I believe that FC-1/JF-17 and J-10 are much better platforms to develop on. This way Russia won't be accusing China of stealing.


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## aimarraul

maxx said:


> Sinosoldier, why do you keep misleading people!?



sensationalize the chinese threat or he's got brain damage

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## CardSharp

haha I can see the radial distortions in the background now. No wonder he resized it to a lower resolution.

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## Martian2

maxx said:


> found here &#202;&#215;&#188;&#251;&#214;&#208;&#185;&#250;&#203;&#213;-27/30&#186;&#205;&#188;&#223;-10&#185;&#178;&#205;&#172;&#209;&#221;&#193;&#183;[&#205;&#188;] &#168;C &#204;&#250;&#209;&#170;&#205;&#248;
> 
> Sinosoldier, why do you keep misleading people!?



SinoSoldier, when you are proven to be unreliable, I do not click on any of your future threads or posts. This policy applies to all those that play "fast and loose" with the truth.


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## somebozo

viva le fanboys!


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## ptldM3

SinoSoldier said:


> Looks a hell lot like the aircraft on the left (which would make it a J-11C): (the one on the right is the J-11D)



I was leaning more towards J-11E but than i thought it was a J-11F based on the stabs. For a second i even suspected that it could be the J-11G. Any word when H, I, J, K, L and M models will be complet?

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## gypgypgyp

Hey guys

just want to clear one fact.


SAC is developing a new fighter/bomber, and it get new title J-16. That is how "steath flanker" come from.

But it is SAC private action throught its surplus funding, PLAAF has no commitment to buy it. It may disappear in any time like "dark Sword". 

The royal 4th generation is CAC one, and PLAAF promise equip J-XX.


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## siegecrossbow

maxx said:


> found here Ê×¼ûÖÐ¹úËÕ-27/30ºÍ¼ß-10¹²Í¬ÑÝÁ·[Í¼] ¨C ÌúÑªÍø
> 
> Sinosoldier, why do you keep misleading people!?



God damn a PS job. Why am I not surprised!!!  I was about to change my opinion of you a while earlier.


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## Akasa

http://lt.cjdby.net/thread-1092699-1-1.html

Development of J-11 jets to J-19 jets are as follows:

1): *F -11*: Chinese-developed Su-27SK variant. (Shenyang)
2): *J -12*: Cancelled single engine interceptor. (Nanchang)
3): *J -13*: Cancelled 1971 single engine fighter. (Shenyang)
4): *J-14 *: Cancelled twin-engine fighter. (Chengdu)
5):* F -15*: Upgraded carrier-based J-11B. (Shenyang)
6): *J -16*: Upgraded J-11BS strike fighter, comparable to the latest F-15K. (Shenyang)
7): *J -17*: Heavy fighter-bomber stealthy variant of the J-11B, similar to the Su-34. (Shenyang)
8): *J -18*: Heavy stealth carrier-based fighter (developed from J-15). (Shenyang )
9): *F -19*: Heavily upgraded J-11B 5th-generation variant. To serve alongside the J-20. (Shenyang)


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## Hafizzz

> The latest progress of Chinas two mysterious fighters J-13 and J-14
> The latest progress of China&#8217;s two mysterious fighters J-13 and J-14 | WAREYE
> 
> Germanys "Asian Aviation" article published of Heydrich Coulter. disclosed China expect to develope the two mysterious fighters. J 13 and 14. The following is some excerpts:
> German media leaked the secret mystery of Chinas two J-13 and J-14 fighter, the latest developments.
> Heydrich Coulter: Chinas fighter planes, only the introduction of the SU27 series from Russia, as well as the development of its own: the J-10 belong to the 3rd generation fighter aircraft. However, you can say that China is not these two fighters, the future of China as the main fighters.
> Original design for the J-13 MIG-23M. In the years between 1965-1977, continued the evolution of design. 1978 stop. In 1996, the Great Wall of China launched 95 new projects. The main design for the new J-13, and the latest J-14 design starts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> However, China was a peaceful voice. Broke out in the Taiwan Strait crisis, China approved the emergency purchase of Russian fighter 2, therefore, resulting in 13,14. Very slow rate of progress of the project. The Israelis involved in the J-10 program, it is in accordance with the normal speed gradually.
> Senior Chinese at that time that you can rely on J-10 and SU27 and the imitation of the modern fleet consisting of J-11, enough to defeat the Taiwan Strait, the United States, Japan, and Taiwan Air Force. Then the United States Air Force Base, Henry Childs Global China, the first test flight of the F22 stealth fighter, later, JZF also take off.
> Followed by a perfidious Israelis. As they forced the Washington pressure. Therefore, not only to the 01 F-10 fighter jets of two Israeli part of the model, all handed over to Washington, but will also own the Chengdu, China is participating in the remote Eagle unmanned attack aircraft program, also submitted to the U.S. Navy intelligence Department of Central Intelligence, according to the Pentagon.
> In the Chinese view, the column filled with their own fighters, absolutely impossible to detailed information on the case to outsiders, to a large number of the production. Therefore, China between 1997 -1998, started to develop the new J-10, No. 1 machine, the plans of J 13 and 14 were started.
> J-13 is currently under "Jane Air Force Almanac" analysis, and from China to buy French companys DNC121 Leisefaer airborne radar remote point of view, J-13 is present, the F22 is similar to the same level with the United States, the supersonic cruise stealth fighter, and his new radar that: DNC 135 km in the airspace, that section of less than 01 (M2) of the target.
> And the viewing distance, coinciding with the Chinese equipment R33C remote from the air to air missiles in the line and. The current U.S. F22A equipment is APQ/84N. Radar detection range than the French minimum of 5 km. This is also the Bush administration degree in 06-10 year military report said the military must be given an additional 12 billion U.S. Air Force, the performance of the improved APQ/84N why.
> The J-13 appearance, unlike his brother, J-14. He is a nearly integrated, Russia, Europe. The chaotic strange design. After the slightly variable wing, to attach the front under the front canard. Double vertical tail layout, vector 2 yuan vents, but the wing itself is semi-fusion type. Can say that he is the fourth generation fighter, the unique one. On the surface, it seems more like the U.S. F23.



Go China Go !!!


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## SAUD-404

SinoSoldier said:


> http://lt.cjdby.net/thread-1092699-1-1.html
> 
> Development of J-11 jets to J-19 jets are as follows:
> 
> 1): *F -11*: Chinese-developed Su-27SK variant. (Shenyang)
> 2): *J -12*: Cancelled single engine interceptor. (Nanchang)
> 3): *J -13*: Cancelled 1971 single engine fighter. (Shenyang)
> 4): *J-14 *: Cancelled twin-engine fighter. (Chengdu)
> 5):* F -15*: Upgraded carrier-based J-11B. (Shenyang)
> 6): *J -16*: Upgraded J-11BS strike fighter, comparable to the latest F-15K. (Shenyang)
> 7): *J -17*: Heavy fighter-bomber stealthy variant of the J-11B, similar to the Su-34. (Shenyang)
> 8): *J -18*: Heavy stealth carrier-based fighter (developed from J-15). (Shenyang )
> 9): *F -19*: Heavily upgraded J-11B 5th-generation variant. To serve alongside the J-20. (Shenyang)


Can PAF use these cancelled Ac projects to build there own improved AC, because what i believe there should be alto of R&d done on these AC and it will not cost much for PAF to make a prototype for tech demonstration?
Shenyang and Nanchang will have no use for these AC left!!!!!!!


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## azfar

^instead join any new/current project

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## Obambam

Rather than obtaining obsolete projects, it is better to join China with modern projects. It would be the most optimum and yields better results, putting both Pakistan and China in better positions.


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## Akasa

Hafizzz said:


> Go China Go !!!


 
J-13 and J-14 are cancelled projects.

The main 5th-generation fighters will be the J-20, J-19, and the (J-21) Snowy Owl.

The main 4.5++ generation fighters will be the J-16, J-17, J-18, and JH-7B.


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## S10

SinoSoldier said:


> http://lt.cjdby.net/thread-1092699-1-1.html
> 
> Development of J-11 jets to J-19 jets are as follows:
> 
> 1): *F -11*: Chinese-developed Su-27SK variant. (Shenyang)
> 2): *J -12*: Cancelled single engine interceptor. (Nanchang)
> 3): *J -13*: Cancelled 1971 single engine fighter. (Shenyang)
> 4): *J-14 *: Cancelled twin-engine fighter. (Chengdu)
> 5):* F -15*: Upgraded carrier-based J-11B. (Shenyang)
> 6): *J -16*: Upgraded J-11BS strike fighter, comparable to the latest F-15K. (Shenyang)
> 7): *J -17*: Heavy fighter-bomber stealthy variant of the J-11B, similar to the Su-34. (Shenyang)
> 8): *J -18*: Heavy stealth carrier-based fighter (developed from J-15). (Shenyang )
> 9): *F -19*: Heavily upgraded J-11B 5th-generation variant. To serve alongside the J-20. (Shenyang)


Not credible at all, quit abusing the term "insider". I could register an account and post the same stuff.


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## Akasa

S10 said:


> Not credible at all, quit abusing the term "insider". I could register an account and post the same stuff.


 
Quite ironic, since you guys always use CJDBY as a source and that the post matches exactly with current info on PLAAF aircraft.


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## S10

SinoSoldier said:


> Quite ironic, since you guys always use CJDBY as a source and that the post matches exactly with current info on PLAAF aircraft.


That shows you don't know anything about CD. Only certain people are taken as more credible due to their work, such as &#19996;&#27807;, peishens, pupu, huzhigeng etc. We don't quote every newbie's post as some holy text. Anybody could have posted the exact designation if they spend a few weeks there.

Like I said, that guy is no more "insider" than I am.


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## Akasa

S10 said:


> That shows you don't know anything about CD. Only certain people are taken as more credible due to their work, such as &#19996;&#27807;, peishens, pupu, huzhigeng etc. We don't quote every newbie's post as some holy text. Anybody could have posted the exact designation if they spend a few weeks there.
> 
> Like I said, that guy is no more "insider" than I am.



Right, I don't. I never took forums as serious information.

These "certain" people are either not true insiders or they are used by the PLA for misinformation campaign.

China's not a place where one can freely post military information.

BTW, it's not me who's calling him an "insider". It's him.


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## April.lyrics

the original link:
¡¾»¹ÊÇÖÐ¹úÄÐÈËÄ³Ä³Ä³¡¿Ä³²¿Ì«ÐÐ¿êÑµÁ·+Á½¸ö²¿¶ÓµÄ¹÷× ÓÑµÁ·+SH-5ÑµÁ·£¬Ô*Éù´óµú - ¿Õ¾ü°æ - ³¬¼¶´ó±¾Óª¾üÊÂÂÛÌ³
video:
[video]http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzUyOTA1MjMy.html[/video]
screenshot:





i think these r J-11B.J-11A cant use ws-10

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## ChineseTiger1986

The WS-10A engine has entered into the mass production stage since 2010, now it is the time for WS-10B.

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## pakje

I thought i was going to see the production line of the J-11b, that 'd be allot more interesting =P

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## Pakistanisage

Way to go China. Well done.

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## rcrmj

i dont knwo what kind of funny theory those delusional indians will come up to deny this reality later on.??

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## farhan_9909

Coool

seems like we will get J-10B with ws-10B on time


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## KRAIT

rcrmj said:


> i dont knwo what kind of funny theory those delusional indians will come up to deny this reality later on.??


You brought india finally....

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## mirage 5000

WTH was end of video ? takeoff from sea and landing on sea monster ?


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## rcrmj

indians always confusing China with their own pathetic country, China never claims this and that, but when we say we have WS-10 in service then it means it has passed all the tests and had already entered services maybe for years, but when India says something or anything, we should have at least 90% discount on the time frame they claimed. because modern aviation is not for technological backward countries.

---------- Post added at 03:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:33 PM ----------




KRAIT said:


> You brought india finally....


so you lot can have excuse to jump in, you are welcome..

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## Leviza

lovely news, congrats china ....


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## Nakki Nair

Good Luck trying to match MKIs with that


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## no_koadsheding_plz

news of chinese engine productions brought as much happiness to me as my graduation brought onto the face of my parents,, 
after hardwork the fruit of efforts is here,,

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## rcrmj

April.lyrics said:


> screenshot:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i think these r J-11B.J-11A cant use ws-10



This engine is AL-31 not WS-10


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## rai_kamal

rcrmj said:


> This engine is AL-31 not WS-10


See, you accused Indians and finally you said the reality...
You false flaggers are very funny,...

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## Sadhu

rcrmj said:


> indians always confusing China with their own pathetic country, China never claims this and that, but when we say we have WS-10 in service then it means it has passed all the tests and had already entered services maybe for years, but when India says something or anything, we should have at least 90% discount on the time frame they claimed. because modern aviation is not for technological backward countries.




Ya we pathetic indian forgot that ur CCP gov share everything about the military testing with you guys thru their official mouthpiece ......And if don't accept it or question it ,they are visited by police and other gov official to explain him the details till he is satisfied....
And our Stupid GoI gives dates in advance ,invites media even just for a test ,,success or failure is a later part.....

Come on u guys , we have to accept that this chinese are so good at copying that they claim 100% success rate and not only that they bulid something which more deadlier than the original one so what they never come to any official comparitive tender like mmrca.... If CCP says its deadly then its deadly ..... take thier word for it like billion chinese do daily.....
And India u are wasting ur talent and money in research and TOT ,,,,, just buy a good copier or xerox machine like chinese ....

p.s
Enjoy your 50 cents mate


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## Banglar Lathial

You can not compare Chinese research, science and technology levels with India's pitiful level of research and sci/tech (in comparison to China). There are weapons embargo from the West on China, so holding an open tender inviting foreign weapons supplier is not possible for China. As of now, China is around 4-12 times ahead of India in most important indicators.


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## ChineseTiger1986

rcrmj said:


> This engine is AL-31 not WS-10



This is a black nozzled WS-10.


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## ChineseTiger1986

Those black nozzled WS-10 could likely be the earlier model like WS-10A.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/chinese-defence/104643-j-11b-bs-now-all-equip-ws-10-engines.html


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## Hulk

rcrmj said:


> i dont knwo what kind of funny theory those delusional indians will come up to deny this reality later on.??


For every achievement Chinese look for Indians to approve it, maybe indirectly. Amazing.

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## Dhruv V Singh

lmao black nozzled ws-10


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## ChineseTiger1986

Dhruv V Singh said:


> lmao black nozzled ws-10



Black Nozzled WS-10








AL-31


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## oct605032048

Nakki Nair said:


> Good Luck trying to match MKIs with that



China produces almost 100 aircrafts per year. How many do you have?

I heard in the other day Indian Air Force crash its 1001 aircrafts which maybe a record PLAAF will never be able to match.


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## grandmaster

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Black Nozzled WS-10
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AL-31



come on. dont need to show the anti-china guys what is this what is that. they cannot stand for the truth. they can servive only with their own illusion now

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## below_freezing

Indians should try to overtake China in farming before they think about aerospace.

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## pakje

Looking at the vid, I can confirm these are WS-10 style nozzles but they're not the typical silver color we're usedto

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## 1962 spanking

Notice no Indian commented. Lol. They are shocked. Stunned. China Moving further ahead. India can only import weapons, can't build their own weapons.

Now we are 100% self sufficient in building a modern 4.5 generation fighter jet.

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## AerospaceEngineer

below_freezing said:


> Indians should try to overtake China in farming before they think about aerospace.




but the sad reality is that they can not even overtake China in farming.

The only thing they can overtake and did overtake is shipbreaking industry. lol

---------- Post added at 04:50 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:48 AM ----------




1962 spanking said:


> Notice no Indian commented. Lol. They are shocked. Stunned. China Moving further ahead. India can only import weapons, can't build their own weapons.
> 
> Now we are 100% self sufficient in building a modern 4.5 generation fighter jet.




Dude, you need to go to the thread "Russia to deliver SU-35 and S-400". Indians are jamming up that thread, why?? Because they found new ways to deloue themselves.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

BLOCK 2 JF17 thunder ?


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## S10

Basically they held the largest air force mock combat exercise this year, and the results were overwhelmingly in favour of J-11. The training exercise was similar in scale to American's Red Flag. One particular J-11 pilot managed to accumulate over 42 mock kills over its J-10 opponent while only being "shot down" once. It's interesting since the results were complete reverse of just a few years ago when J-10 always manage to gain the upper hand. The past two years, units flying the J-11 has consistently outperform their opponents.

Chinese Link: ????? ????? -????

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## RazPaK

S10 said:


> Basically they held the largest air force mock combat exercise this year, and the results were overwhelmingly in favour of J-11. The training exercise was similar in scale to American's Red Flag. One particular J-11 pilot managed to accumulate over 42 mock kills over its J-10 opponent while only being "shot down" once. It's interesting since the results were complete reverse of just a few years ago when J-10 always manage to gain the upper hand. The past two years, units flying the J-11 has consistently outperform their opponents.
> 
> Chinese Link: ????? ????? -????





Seems like we may be investing in the wrong plane.

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## S10

RazPaK said:


> Seems like we may be investing in the wrong plane.


More like they figured out the tactics of J-10 pilots in previous exercises, and developed new ways to counter them. The red stars in the first photo indicates air-to-air kills.

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## RazPaK

S10 said:


> More like they figured out the tactics of J-10 pilots in previous exercises, and developed new ways to counter them. The red stars in the first photo indicates air-to-air kills.



It would be interesting to have China host our pilots while having mock dog fights, but for all I know this is probably already happening.


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## dreamer53320

S10 said:


> More like they figured out the tactics of J-10 pilots in previous exercises, and developed new ways to counter them. The red stars in the first photo indicates air-to-air kills.



your location is scary.......................................


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## Edevelop

From the image it seems to be J-10A. How would J-10B work against J-11 ?


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## xuxu1457

108 pilots and their combat aircrafts fighting for ten Golden Helmet, and no matter J-11 and J-10, pilots more important than aircrafts, about 80% destroyed aircrafts did by 20% elite pilots

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## sweetgrape

I think the title is misleading, J-11 and J10 are different plane, one is heavy, one is middle.
The China Red flag drill just a training exercise, don't involve the plane here, just focus on the promotion of Pilot skill.

Hope more such training exercise will be in china, to train and promote our pilot, and improve our plane.


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## S10

cb4 said:


> From the image it seems to be J-10A. How would J-10B work against J-11 ?


Hard to say, but new tactics will evolve constantly during these exercises. I won't be surprised if units flying the J-10 turn the tables next year.



sweetgrape said:


> I think the title is misleading, J-11 and J10 are different plane, one is heavy, one is middle.
> The China Red flag drill just a training exercise, don't involve the plane here, just focus on the promotion of Pilot skill.
> 
> Hope more such training exercise will more in china, to train and promote our pilot, and improve our plane.


The wording of the news is &#23545;&#25239;&#35757;&#32451;, which means mock combat training. The news article mentions how pilots engage each other.


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## sweetgrape

S10 said:


> Hard to say, but new tactics will evolve constantly during these exercises. I won't be surprised if units flying the J-10 turn the tables next year.
> 
> 
> The wording of the news is &#23545;&#25239;&#35757;&#32451;, which means mock combat training. The news article mentions how pilots engage each other.



I know, What I mean is that the title is a little misleading, will let the thread be into arguing over the plane.
I am very glad that the training excerise become more in china, we will have more better planes, so the question appear, how to train our pilot, very glad that government don't neglect the traing system, also invest much on it, we should learn all the ways of training from other country, I like USA and Isreal training, especially Isreal, Whatever, very happy for PLA achievement.


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## Black Widow

For those who abuse Su27 series for its massive RCS.. 


Su27 series is very potent platform, The plane can match Su27 series is F15s and EFTs..

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## DrSomnath999

RazPaK said:


> Seems like we may be investing in the wrong plane.



well i hope PAF realises it as soon as possible
instead get upgraded F16 latest variant block 60


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## Beast

Most of the kill is carried by by BVR. not the dogfight. The raw power of J-11b radar plus its stronger EW were the reason that kill most of the J-10. The last competition, the J-11B pilot were shot down by J-10, did not even utilise their EW suit available onboard.

There is a reason why PLAAF prefer big plane, like J-8F which never retired and continuing gets upgrade. Bigger means you can carry more powerful EW suit and a bigger radar.

While small plane like J-7G and J-E are quickly phased out and retired.

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## April.lyrics

and after this exercise countries with su27 series need not complain about air threat from J10


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## Beast

RazPaK said:


> Seems like we may be investing in the wrong plane.



Don't worry! Once China gets its hand on the 24 Su-35 , we will transfer those 24 planes to PAF... It's all part of the plan.

We don't need those Russian Su-35.

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## Beast

Shadow_Hunter said:


> Seems a good news for us. Similarly our Su30MKI will crush J10 when it is inducted in PAF.



MKI wil be different.. It doesn't has the EW suit J-11b has.. J-11b has redesigned air inlet to reduced RCS, composite added to reduced weight. MKI will have increased RCS due to its canard..

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## Windjammer

Shadow_Hunter said:


> Seems a good news for us. Similarly our Su30MKI will crush J10 when it is inducted in PAF.



"A Plane is only as good as it's pilot". !!

OT, It's interesting to note that while Pakistan is allegedly going for the J-10, China on the other hand sent it's J-11s to Pakistan to exercise with the PAF. !!!

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## IND151

Black Widow said:


> For those who abuse Su27 series for its massive RCS..
> 
> 
> Su27 series is very potent platform, The plane can match Su27 series is F15s and EFTs..



not completely true

you cant comapare EFT with SU 27.

EFT is MRCA while SU 27 is heavy figher


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## UKBengali

I think that happened is that the newer J-11B used it's more advanced and powerful radar to shoot BVR missiles at the J-10A before the J-10 was able to get a comparable lock.

Whenever a J-11B got a lock and fired, this was registered as a "kill".

There is no way that the J-11B, would actually be able to shoot down a J-10A with a kill ratio of 42-1 for real.

Results would have been different if the J-10B was used instead with it's much more advanced radar and EW suite.

We really need a lot more details on the parameters that this exercise was held before coming to firm conclusions.

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## giant panda

J-10A got 3 gold helmets this year ,that's not bad.Just not so good as before.


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## Sanchez

@S10

Do read Chinese reports carefully! The 42:0 kill was won in the mock fight contest in May, 2012, while the contest was conducted only among the same type of fighters. In the second exercise of Nov, 2012, the pilots fought against various types of platforms. There was no such a record in the reports!

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## Agent X

Beast said:


> MKI wil be different.. It doesn't has the EW suit J-11b has.. J-11b has redesigned air inlet to reduced RCS, composite added to reduced weight. MKI will have increased RCS due to its canard..



Wiki say Sukhoi Su-30MKI has electronic counter-measure systems. The RWR system is of Indian design, developed by India's DRDO, called Tarang, (Wave in Sanskrit). It has direction finding capability and is known to have a programmable threat library. The RWR is derived from work done on an earlier system for India's MiG-23BNs known as the Tranquil, which is now superseded by the more advanced Tarang series. Elta EL/M-8222 a self-protection jammer developed by Israel Aircraft Industries is the MKI's standard EW pod, which the Israeli Air Force uses on its F-15s. The ELTA El/M-8222 Self Protection Pod is a power-managed jammer, air-cooled system with an ESM receiver integrated into the pod. The pod contains an antenna on the forward and aft ends, which receive the hostile RF signal and after processing deliver the appropriate response.

can we count all those as EW suit???



giant panda said:


> J-10A got *3 gold helmets* this year ,that's not bad.Just not so good as before.




what's Gold helmets??? some kind of trophy or what?


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## xuxu1457

Agent X said:


> Wiki say Sukhoi Su-30MKI has electronic counter-measure systems. The RWR system is of Indian design, developed by India's DRDO, called Tarang, (Wave in Sanskrit). It has direction finding capability and is known to have a programmable threat library. The RWR is derived from work done on an earlier system for India's MiG-23BNs known as the Tranquil, which is now superseded by the more advanced Tarang series. Elta EL/M-8222 a self-protection jammer developed by Israel Aircraft Industries is the MKI's standard EW pod, which the Israeli Air Force uses on its F-15s. The ELTA El/M-8222 Self Protection Pod is a power-managed jammer, air-cooled system with an ESM receiver integrated into the pod. The pod contains an antenna on the forward and aft ends, which receive the hostile RF signal and after processing deliver the appropriate response.
> 
> can we count all those as EW suit???
> 
> 
> 
> 
> what's Gold helmets??? some kind of trophy or what?



the top pilots will got gold helmet, about 1/10 pilots, the first will fight for 42 times(include Team and Personal "war") in free air combat, Round robin and Knockout, at least win 90% other 41 J-11 and J-10

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## Windjammer

Shadow_Hunter said:


> This rather sounds like an excuse to hide the fact the J10 is clearly inferior as compared to the Su30 series, and people were comparing it with Rafale, LOL



Before you execute a victory roll, let me quote you another Chinese member. 




Sanchez said:


> @S10
> 
> Do read Chinese reports carefully! The 42:0 kill was won in the mock fight contest in May, 2012, while the contest was conducted only among the *same type* of fighters. *In the second exercise of Nov, 2012, the pilots fought against various types of platforms. There was no such a record in the reports!*

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## OrionHunter

When the parameters are almost equal, it's the man behind the machine that counts!

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## Peregrine

These j-11s must be upgraded ones.......lets wait and see how they will perform against j-10b.


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## Sanchez

Windjammer said:


> Before you execute a victory roll, let me quote you another Chinese member.



What's your point? J-10 is inferior?


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## itaskol

only this year, 

usually J10 always won in the past years..


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## sweetgrape

The exercise is to train pilot, don't know why OP make the plane stand out, it is not good!!
And, I read the news about the exercise in the website, don't find tham talk about the plane style, till now, Just report the name of one pilot that got golden helmets, that mean, most of the result of the news are unknown, and do you know the exercise items? just J10 fight J11? it is ridiculous, I know that it is title indian like, I knew what kind of comments indian will post here!!


About the exercise, I insist that, don't put too much attention on plane, Pilot and his team are much more important, the purpose of the exercise also to promote Pilot skill and team corportion.

Simple Comparing J10 and J11 is very ridiculous, neglect the title.


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## xuxu1457

Jiang Jiaji win his second gold helmet&#65292;from Chengdu military region(the region nere India) also the No.1 pilot on the list, 42:0 in 2011 and 41:1 in 2012, one lost to a young pilot; in the same generation fighter, pilot is more important than aircraft. so F-22 can lost to F-18 if pilot quick one second.
When Germany skilled pilots died in WII, Germany air force became a target; and in the later WII, Japanese air force become suicide attack bomb.


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## notorious_eagle

RazPaK said:


> Seems like we may be investing in the wrong plane.



Not really. PAF does not choose an airplane by pulling its name out of a hat. They decide it after conducting extensive feasibility tests. If PAF is deciding to stick to J10s, there must be a reason behind it. One bad exercise does not make an aircraft inferior, last year the J10's hammered the J11's. Maybe this year the squadron of J11's might have worked super hard and figured out the vulnerabilities of the J10's and than exploited them. Our F7PG pilots have hammered the F16's in WVR mock combats several times, does that mean the F7PG is a better machine than the F16. No, it was simply because the pilot of F7PG deployed better tactics and did his homework. J10 is an ideal plane for PAF and serves PAF's priorities perfectly.

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## INDIAISM

xuxu1457 said:


> Jiang Jiaji win his second gold helmet,from Chengdu military region(the region nere India) also the No.1 pilot on the list, 42:0 in 2011 and 41:1 in 2012, one lost to a young pilot; in the same generation fighter, pilot is more important than aircraft. so F-22 can lost to F-18 if pilot quick one second.
> When Germany skilled pilots died in WII, Germany air force became a target; and in the later WII, Japanese air force become suicide attack bomb.


Buddy F-22 is totaly a different ball game....No matter how good pilot is but still it needs to see the enemy jet in its radar to show his skills....


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## BordoEnes

Walking away like a bawz!!

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## lcloo

Last year's exercise, J-10A locked and shoot first at J-11A/SU-27SK equiped with down graded export version Russian radar inferior to Chinese ones on J-10A, result in great score.

And if radar and other detection devices are the deciding factor in this new exercises, that simply means new Chinese radars fitted to J-11B is far superior to that of J-10A, which in turn was far superior to the Russian ones fitted on SU-27SK/J-11A. That would make J-11B a far supeior jet to most other Flankers currently in service. 

All this being said, as stated by other posters, pilot skill and experience, tactic used etc can change the scenario. Example, old F-86 against new (then) F-104 in South Asian airspace, and vintage MIG-17 against US jets in Indo-China.


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## SQ8

The question is of interpreting results.
Please visit some Chinese forums, The J-11 *pilot* scored 42 kills...not the J-11 overall.
Moreover, there is no indication that these kills were made over Just J-10 units.. 
It was a combined unit exercise.

But with elements of one-vs-one and two-vs-two had more resemblance to a top gun type(or rather a CCS test) than anything else.

Back in CCS there have been pilots in FT-5's that would literally "plow" F-16's.
Shall that be taken as indication of a superior aircraft.

Back in Red flag.. the red force aircraft flying inferior jets would "plow" blue force.
Is that an inferior Aircraft.

Before the TOP GUN school at miranmar was shut down.. F-14 and F-18 pilots were going up against A-4's and F-16's.
Who would literally out fly them.

The F-4 was supposed to have been tested in simulations before Vietnam to score kills consistently over fighters...
Is that indicative of what happened with the migs in Vietnam?

Aircraft are rarely ever judged on just paper.. which is why No airforce buys an aircraft based on paper(or gloats about it to the degree fanboys here do).. and then just sits back with it believing it has the best weapon system and hence untouchable.

The J-10 was a nightmare for Su-27SK pilots when it first came out.. Moreover, the pilots that flew the J-10 units were selected from the best in the PLAAF(other going to then then J-7 and J-8 units)
Eventually the J-11 units in training were taught better tactics, better BVR and WVR skills.. and like this particular unit where pilots have figured out how to fly and fight with the machine.

The J-11B is still however a fearsome machine.. and is closer to the su-35BM in RCS measures.. 
And lets not forget.. the Su-27 series on their own are one of the best dogfighting machines flying today.. along with having a radar that can bake a cake with its power... or burn it.
Tactics evolve.. so do people.
The "Golden Helmet" competition is not like Red Flag though.. it is inspired from the PAF CCS course.

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## Beast

Agent X said:


> Wiki say Sukhoi Su-30MKI has electronic counter-measure systems. The RWR system is of Indian design, developed by India's DRDO, called Tarang, (Wave in Sanskrit). It has direction finding capability and is known to have a programmable threat library. The RWR is derived from work done on an earlier system for India's MiG-23BNs known as the Tranquil, which is now superseded by the more advanced Tarang series. Elta EL/M-8222 a self-protection jammer developed by Israel Aircraft Industries is the MKI's standard EW pod, which the Israeli Air Force uses on its F-15s. The ELTA El/M-8222 Self Protection Pod is a power-managed jammer, air-cooled system with an ESM receiver integrated into the pod. The pod contains an antenna on the forward and aft ends, which receive the hostile RF signal and after processing deliver the appropriate response.



Can you re- read what I wrote??? I never say MKI has no EW suit. All the EW suit you mention on MKI is absent from J-11b becos its definitely a different ball game. It's will be complete Chinese version. Doesn't mean the Suit on MKI is inferior.. I think is in fact very capable.


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## A.Rafay

Beast said:


> Don't worry! Once China gets its hand on the 24 Su-35 , *we will transfer those 24 planes to PAF... It's all part of the plan.*
> 
> We don't need those Russian Su-35.



Is that really the Plan??


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## AUSTERLITZ

One of the reasons PAF has not ordered the j-10,they know it would be at a disadvantage against mki let alone rafale.PAF waiting for better versions of j-10s,some radical upgrade of jf-17 or go straight for 5th gen by saving money.Smart thinking by PAF.


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## PakShah

We should try getting some J-11s. I heard the range is excellent.


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## Edevelop

PakShah said:


> We should try getting some J-11s. I heard the range is excellent.



No worries. I think J-10B will turn out to be pretty good.


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## Windjammer

PakShah said:


> We should try getting some J-11s. I heard the range is excellent.



As good as the J-11 is, it's not necessary that it meets PAF's operational requirements like the J-10 does.
After the induction of JF-17 is complete, the J-10 as the next step and then we could think about the J-31.... it looks the works.

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## PakShah

self-delete.


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## PakShah

Windjammer said:


> As good as the J-11 is, it's not necessary that it meets PAF's operational requirements like the J-10 does.
> After the induction of JF-17 is complete, the J-10 as the next step and then we could think about the J-31.... it looks the works.



True, true. Windjammer, we Muslims are weak today. We Muslims need to come together (e.g. Saudi Arabia, UAE, Pakistan, Morocco, Malaysia, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan) and form on our own military consortium that can rival sukhoi or lockheed martin.

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## doidoi2

in this day and age, whoever has the best radars and missiles, and are stealthy enough to evade the enemy's radars wins.

Air frame is only the carrier of weapons, and the weapons platform is only one part of a comprehensive military strategy. 

I'd actually be more impressed if the kills were based on radar info from another plane, like the radar info from a radar surveillance plane. That would show that the PLAAF has the ability to coordinate an attack as a cohesive force instead of single plane tactics that amount to not much more than who has the biggest radar and smallest RCS.

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## 帅的一匹

A.Rafay said:


> Is that really the Plan??


That's no more than a joke.


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## 帅的一匹

PakShah said:


> We should try getting some J-11s. I heard the range is excellent.


Don't worry Bro, step by step. Go for J31 straightly after induct J10b, it really kills.


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## Pakistanisage

The choice between J-10B and J-11 has to do more with the Doctrine of Pakistan Air Force. PAF decided to stick with Single engine fighters as opposed to twin engine fighters. At some point if PAF reverses this strategy it will look into the best twin fighters for its Squadrons.

Personally, I favor a twin engine heavier fighter for a AIR SUPERIORITY role.

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## 帅的一匹

Pakistanisage said:


> The choice between J-10B and J-11 has to do more with the Doctrine of Pakistan Air Force. PAF decided to stick with Single engine fighters as opposed to twin engine fighters. At some point if PAF reverses this strategy it will look into the best twin fighters for its Squadrons.
> 
> Personally, I favor a twin engine heavier fighter for a AIR SUPERIORITY role.


PAF is a defence force, multiple role fighter like J10b is more affordable. Looking forward to the see what will happen if J10b face J11b in the mock excercise. But we shall not exclude any possibility that PAF will change its Doctrine of stick to single enigne fighters in the future. It depends on the situation.

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## S10

AUSTERLITZ said:


> One of the reasons PAF has not ordered the j-10,they know it would be at a disadvantage against mki let alone rafale.PAF waiting for better versions of j-10s,some radical upgrade of jf-17 or go straight for 5th gen by saving money.Smart thinking by PAF.


That's an unsubstantiated assumption at best. Last several years the units flying the J-10 were whipping J-11, until new J-11 training and tactics were utilized. This has more to do with pilots' skills and tactics than the platform.

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## Akasa

Oscar said:


> The question is of interpreting results.
> Please visit some Chinese forums, The J-11 *pilot* scored 42 kills...not the J-11 overall.
> Moreover, there is no indication that these kills were made over Just J-10 units..
> It was a combined unit exercise.
> 
> But with elements of one-vs-one and two-vs-two had more resemblance to a top gun type(or rather a CCS test) than anything else.
> 
> Back in CCS there have been pilots in FT-5's that would literally "plow" F-16's.
> Shall that be taken as indication of a superior aircraft.
> 
> Back in Red flag.. the red force aircraft flying inferior jets would "plow" blue force.
> Is that an inferior Aircraft.
> 
> Before the TOP GUN school at miranmar was shut down.. F-14 and F-18 pilots were going up against A-4's and F-16's.
> Who would literally out fly them.
> 
> The F-4 was supposed to have been tested in simulations before Vietnam to score kills consistently over fighters...
> Is that indicative of what happened with the migs in Vietnam?
> 
> Aircraft are rarely ever judged on just paper.. which is why No airforce buys an aircraft based on paper(or gloats about it to the degree fanboys here do).. and then just sits back with it believing it has the best weapon system and hence untouchable.
> 
> The J-10 was a nightmare for Su-27SK pilots when it first came out.. Moreover, the pilots that flew the J-10 units were selected from the best in the PLAAF(other going to then then J-7 and J-8 units)
> Eventually the J-11 units in training were taught better tactics, better BVR and WVR skills.. and like this particular unit where pilots have figured out how to fly and fight with the machine.
> 
> The J-11B is still however a fearsome machine.. and is closer to the su-35BM in RCS measures..
> And lets not forget.. the Su-27 series on their own are one of the best dogfighting machines flying today.. along with having a radar that can bake a cake with its power... or burn it.
> Tactics evolve.. so do people.
> The "Golden Helmet" competition is not like Red Flag though.. it is inspired from the PAF CCS course.



The J-11B, with its RAM, AESA radar upgrades for some units, MAWS, IRST, would have a huge advantage over the J-10A. Especially when its aerodynamics and engines aren't bad either. Now, however, with the threat of the new J-10B, things have changed. The J-11B might be limited to a strike role in the PLAAF now, since we are seeing new attack variants like J-16.

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## rashtriya.rifles

what engines the J-11 and j-10 are flying with ?


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## S10

rashtriya.rifles said:


> what engines the J-11 and j-10 are flying with ?


AL-31FN for J-10, AL-31F for J-11A and WS-10A for J-11B.

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## Akasa

AUSTERLITZ said:


> One of the reasons PAF has not ordered the j-10,they know it would be at a disadvantage against mki let alone rafale.PAF waiting for better versions of j-10s,some radical upgrade of jf-17 or go straight for 5th gen by saving money.Smart thinking by PAF.



The J-10B has more upgrades than either the Su-30MKI or Rafale. In fact the reason they didn't order J-10B is because their J-10A upgraded version is already enough to deter the two IAF planes.

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## rockstarIN

Windjammer said:


> "A Plane is only as good as it's pilot". !!
> 
> OT, It's interesting to note that while Pakistan is allegedly going for the J-10, China on the other hand sent it's J-11s to Pakistan to exercise with the PAF. !!!



Well, an experienced F-15 veteran has got different opinion and experience.



> There is a common saying that "An old pro in an F-5 or MiG-21 will easily kill a noob in an F-16 or Su-27." The reality of it, though, is that there are occasions where there is such a vast gulf in the hardware that the noob will in fact triumph. Example: towards the end of my career, I was an instructor in air to air in the AT-38B, a fighter trainer, basically a T-38. Cool airplane, lots of fun, but hopelessly outclassed. One week, we were called to Luke AFB to provide dissimilar training to brand new F-16 student pilots who were at the end of their transition course. The setups consisted of offensive and defensive perches, and neutral (butterfly) setups. I was good, I knew my own platform, I knew the F-16, and had a bag of tricks in store for this guy. So I thought.
> 
> It was one of the most frustrating series of flights I had ever had. The F-16 outperformed my AT-38 so thoroughly, it absorbed his mistakes and still allowed him to absolutely dominate the fight. Despite years of experience and every trick I knew, I was like a poodle in the jaws of a Rottweiler. Here was a case where pilot excellence meant little, and airframe was everything.
> 
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...vs-f16-block-50-dogfight-4.html#ixzz2EXOBYOji

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## AUSTERLITZ

SinoSoldier said:


> The J-10B has more upgrades than either the Su-30MKI or Rafale. In fact the reason they didn't order J-10B is because their J-10A upgraded version is already enough to deter the two IAF planes.



Really?What really are these super upgrades that mki or rafale don't have?And then why is PAF delaying order if its already enough.


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## Akasa

AUSTERLITZ said:


> Really?What really are these super upgrades that mki or rafale don't have?And then why is PAF delaying order if its already enough.



A 12000 T/R configuration for their AESA, 136 kN engine, significant amount of RAM, composites, solid state electronics, sensor fusion, DSI intakes to decrease frontal RCS. Pakistan never mentioned or showed that it was delaying the J-10 deal.

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## AUSTERLITZ

But we have been hearing of j-10 since 5 yrs now.


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## INDIAISM

SinoSoldier said:


> A 12000 T/R configuration for their AESA, 136 kN engine, significant amount of RAM, composites, solid state electronics, sensor fusion, DSI intakes to decrease frontal RCS. Pakistan never mentioned or showed that it was delaying the J-10 deal.


Dude first of all it will be 1200 T/R module not 12000....and ya Rafale Aesa radar has 1500 T/R modules....


Secondly,forget about 136 KN engine no body even know which engine PAF J-10B will be using Chineese or Russian....


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## rcrmj

INDIAISM said:


> Dude first of all it will be 1200 T/R module not 12000....and *ya Rafale Aesa radar has 1500 T/R modules*....
> 
> 
> Secondly,forget about 136 KN engine no body even know which engine PAF J-10B will be using Chineese or Russian....



this is total BS, Rafale has smaller cone than either J-10B or EF-2000, and on Thales' official site it quoted the RBE2 AESA radar has only 898 gallium-arsenide T/R modules,

http://www.******************/forum...s-analysis-our-last-two-mmrca-contenders.html

https://www1.online.thalesgroup.com/defence/military_aerospace/news01.php
this one quoted some 1,000 gallium-arsenide T/R modules

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## kaykay

SinoSoldier said:


> A 12000 T/R configuration for their AESA, 136 kN engine, significant amount of RAM, composites, solid state electronics, sensor fusion, DSI intakes to decrease frontal RCS. Pakistan never mentioned or showed that it was delaying the J-10 deal.



well Rafale is better in all the terms you mentioned above....



SinoSoldier said:


> A 12000 T/R configuration for their AESA, 136 kN engine, significant amount of RAM, composites, solid state electronics, sensor fusion, DSI intakes to decrease frontal RCS. Pakistan never mentioned or showed that it was delaying the J-10 deal.



well Rafale is better in all the terms you mentioned above....


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## SinoChallenger

S10 said:


>


This is PLAAF's real life "Top Gun" Jiang Jiaji. He flies a J-11*B* (which is 100% indigenously manufactured including WS-10 engine) and currently China's most advanced aircraft (more advanced than J-10 because of better radar and engines). Give him a J-20 and he'll shred the enemy's air force to ribbons.


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## UKBengali

SinoSoldier said:


> A 12000 T/R configuration for their AESA, *136 kN engine*, significant amount of RAM, composites, solid state electronics, sensor fusion, DSI intakes to decrease frontal RCS. Pakistan never mentioned or showed that it was delaying the J-10 deal.



Is is really true that the WS-10A can produce 136KN of thrust?


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## SinoChallenger

UKBengali said:


> Is is really true that the WS-10A can produce 136KN of thrust?


Not the one already installed on J-11B, J-11BS, J-15, etc. but currently in testing.

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## 帅的一匹

gessler said:


> And the enemy will be sitting and watching with MiG-15s.
> 
> You better tell your top gunner that MKI is no J-10 for to shred



sinochallenger did not bring India in.....what this?


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## 帅的一匹

You buy and we build, that's the difference. At the time you receive the first Rafale, we will have inducted at least 3 squadrons of J10b. when you fully induct those 126 Rafale, we will have several squadrons of J20. You are still waiting for FGFA to come. PLAAF always take the upper hand to IAF. Sorry to say that, but reality is hard to swallow.


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## Akasa

kaykay said:


> well Rafale is better in all the terms you mentioned above....
> 
> 
> 
> well Rafale is better in all the terms you mentioned above....



Better, as in having a smaller AESA, less composites, weaker engine, lack of sensor fusion, yes, they are definitely "superior".



INDIAISM said:


> Dude first of all it will be 1200 T/R module not 12000....and ya Rafale Aesa radar has 1500 T/R modules....
> 
> 
> Secondly,forget about 136 KN engine no body even know which engine PAF J-10B will be using Chineese or Russian....



The most optimistic report I've read about the Rafale's radar so far is 880 T/R modules. Not to mention that the PLAAF selects their radars via competition and has far more experience with such systems than France. The J-10B has been tested with a WS-10B engine, so it is imminent to adopt it as their service engine for export.

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## Akasa

AUSTERLITZ said:


> But we have been hearing of j-10 since 5 yrs now.



True, but again we have already seen tons of action, with the PAF officials taking a model of a modified J-10A from a Chinese official, etc. The J-10As need time to be delivered.



UKBengali said:


> Is is really true that the WS-10A can produce 136KN of thrust?



That would be the WS-10B, especially tailor made for the J-10B. Might include TVC in the future as well.

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## AUSTERLITZ

Taking a model is tons of action?i think its clear PAF waiting for j-10b.


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## UKBengali

Some of the mentioned specs of the J-10B make me want it even more for Bangladesh but the present BD government wants Mig-29 instead. It would be a deadly duo with the SU-30.

To think that may have 1200 T/R modules, 136KN WS-10B engine, extensive use of composites and sensor fusion makes you lick your lips in anticipation.

The ability to fire the new generation PL-10 SRAMM and PL-21D LRAAM would put the icing on the cake.

Anyone have any idea when this beast will be ready for service?


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## 帅的一匹

I strongly believe J-0b will be such a great multiple role gamer for PAF, a state of art fighter. If china could get the engine on it updated to WS10b in the export version provided to PAF?


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## pzkilo

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&#19968;&#20010;&#28040;&#24687;&#65292;&#38500;&#38750;&#26377;&#24456;&#30828;&#30340;&#28040;&#24687;&#25110;&#20843;&#32929;&#25991;&#20986;&#26469;&#20316;&#35777;&#65292;&#25165;&#33021;&#30830;&#23450;&#12290;&#19981;&#28982;&#29978;&#33267;&#26159;&#20960;&#20010;&#21487;&#20449;&#30340;&#22823;&#20332;&#65288;&#32780;&#19981;&#26159;&#26576;&#20123;&#21517;&#22768;&#29436;&#34249;&#30340;&#20154;&#65289;&#38598;&#20307;&#30830;&#23454;&#20063;&#21482;&#33021;&#24403;&#24403;&#21442;&#32771;&#65292;&#21487;&#20197;&#20010;&#20154;&#30456;&#20449;&#20294;&#26159;&#19981;&#30830;&#23450;&#12290;
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## Viper0011.

wanglaokan said:


> I strongly believe J-0b will be such a great multiple role gamer for PAF, a state of art fighter. If china could get the engine on it updated to WS10b in the export version provided to PAF?



I would HIGHLY doubt that. The Pakistani air force needs to change its strategy. I have been saying this all along. India is getting very tech-advanced jets. So to keep parity, the PAF needs to match suite to some degree. It doesn't need to be a match for 1-1 (as PAF never had that) but to be a potent defensive fighting force where the enemy doesn't dare to venture in the future (post 2014), they need different planes. 
My suggestion has always been to drop the J-10B plan. That doesn't make sense frankly speaking. They should introduce about 3-5 squadrons of J-11 and about 3 squadrons of J-31. Then for Naval role, use J-11 or J-16 or J-31 (preferred 1-2 squadrons for their Navy). This gives them the punch that they need, combined with about 100 JFT BII and 100 BIII's with better AESA's, reduced RCS, BVR missiles in BIII and other ECM, etc upgrades. Around 400 jets with the above mix working with the F-16's would result in a great force. Add left over few F-7's and Mirages for point defense / CAS. 
Yes, I know that PAF's strategy is to keep single engine jets. But its time that they change it.

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## Akasa

AUSTERLITZ said:


> Taking a model is tons of action?i think its clear PAF waiting for j-10b.



THe model given was a J-10A


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## kaykay

SinoSoldier said:


> Better, as in having a smaller AESA, less composites, weaker engine, lack of sensor fusion, yes, they are definitely "superior".
> 
> 
> 
> The most optimistic report I've read about the Rafale's radar so far is 880 T/R modules. Not to mention that the PLAAF selects their radars via competition and has far more experience with such systems than France. The J-10B has been tested with a WS-10B engine, so it is imminent to adopt it as their service engine for export.



well rafale's AESA is known to everyone....while there is no proof about your 1200 T/R AESA...last time you guys 'claimed' that but unfortunately that radar happened to be a PESA...LOLz....now come to engine part...right now J10 is equipped with a engine having 123KN thrust...where as rafale is having two engines having 150KN thrust combined....by the time J10B would be equipped with better engine,Indian rafales also be equipped with better engines....as that is planned to replace the current engines with m88-2 engines which have thrust more than 180KN combined.......and would you please mention the 'sensor fusion' where rafale is inferior???


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## Armstrong

SinoSoldier said:


> The J-10B has more upgrades than either the Su-30MKI or Rafale. In fact the reason they didn't order J-10B is because their J-10A upgraded version is already enough to deter the two IAF planes.



Dude I think the reason why we haven't ordered the FC-20 is because we're broke right now ! And we can't rely on the 'soft loans' anymore because we've already financed much of our acquisitions from there. I think we're waiting for the economy to pick up in the next few years before we commit to more acquisitions.

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## 帅的一匹

orangzaib said:


> I would HIGHLY doubt that. The Pakistani air force needs to change its strategy. I have been saying this all along. India is getting very tech-advanced jets. So to keep parity, the PAF needs to match suite to some degree. It doesn't need to be a match for 1-1 (as PAF never had that) but to be a potent defensive fighting force where the enemy doesn't dare to venture in the future (post 2014), they need different planes.
> My suggestion has always been to drop the J-10B plan. That doesn't make sense frankly speaking. They should introduce about 3-5 squadrons of J-11 and about 3 squadrons of J-31. Then for Naval role, use J-11 or J-16 or J-31 (preferred 1-2 squadrons for their Navy). This gives them the punch that they need, combined with about 100 JFT BII and 100 BIII's with better AESA's, reduced RCS, BVR missiles in BIII and other ECM, etc upgrades. Around 400 jets with the above mix working with the F-16's would result in a great force. Add left over few F-7's and Mirages for point defense / CAS.
> Yes, I know that PAF's strategy is to keep single engine jets. But its time that they change it.


It doesn't make any sense that ask PAf to go for this and go for that. It depends on PAF requirement and Doctrine. PAF is restrained from its limited budget, otherwise only idiots don't wanna get some goods like J16 AND J11b. Not to mention Russian will pull the political string on the sell of J16 to Pakistan regarding intellectual property ownership.Only if Pakistan economic condition turn better, they will consider your proposal. J10b is a very outsatanding MRCA with very low RCS and sharp avionics and Radar. If i were the cheif commander of PAF, i will go for J10b as well. PAF is not excluding the possibility of buying J16 in the future, it's not the right time to bring it on table. My suggestion to PAF is, induct at least 4-5 suqadrons of J10b and go for customized J31 in the future.
J10b means quite lots to PAf, it will replace those old fuselage of some F16 and provide them a 4++mutile role platform.


kaykay said:


> well rafale's AESA is known to everyone....while there is no proof about your 1200 T/R AESA...last time you guys 'claimed' that but unfortunately that radar happened to be a PESA...LOLz....now come to engine part...right now J10 is equipped with a engine having 123KN thrust...where as rafale is having two engines having 150KN thrust combined....by the time J10B would be equipped with better engine,Indian rafales also be equipped with better engines....as that is planned to replace the current engines with m88-2 engines which have thrust more than 180KN combined.......and would you please mention the 'sensor fusion' where rafale is inferior???


When the 136KN WS10X COME into service, Rafale will lose its TWR advantage. China will invest 15billions in the coming years for engine R&D, have Inda got any substantial Engine project to rival it? We will catch up the western very soon.

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## kaykay

wanglaokan said:


> It doesn't make any sense that ask PAf to go for this and go for that. It depends on PAF requirement and Doctrine. PAF is restrained from its limited budget, otherwise only idiots don't wanna get some goods like J16 AND J11b. Not to mention Russian will pull the political string on the sell of J16 to Pakistan regarding intellectual property ownership.Only if Pakistan economic condition turn better, they will consider your proposal. J10b is a very outsatanding MRCA with very low RCS and sharp avionics and Radar. If i were the cheif commander of PAF, i will go for J10b as well. PAF is not excluding the possibility of buying J16 in the future, it's not the right time to bring it on table. My suggestion to PAF is, induct at least 4-5 suqadrons of J10b and go for customized J31 in the future.
> J10b means quite lots to PAf, it will replace those old fuselage of some F16 and provide them a 4++mutile role platform.
> 
> When the 136KN WS10X COME into service, Rafale will lose its TWR advantage. China will invest 15billions in the coming years for engine R&D, have Inda got any substantial Engine project to rival it? We will catch up the western very soon.



but again the Indian rafale will be equipped with better engine 'M88-3' which is having thrust more than 180KN combined....even one TVC engine variant is being developed but I doubt that India will opt for that....so no j10b advantage over rafale regarding TWR.


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## 帅的一匹

kaykay said:


> but again the Indian rafale will be equipped with better engine 'M88-3' which is having thrust more than 180KN combined....even one TVC engine is being developed but I doubt that India opt for that....so no j10b advantage over rafale regarding TWR.


We are progressing everyday.....You know What China speed means. WS15 engine has 16 tons thrust power is finished ground test three months ago, we could mount that on j10 variants in the future. Most Importantly, we can build thousands of it if we'd like to


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## 帅的一匹

We will induct WS-15 NO late than 2015, when is M88-3 gonna be inducted in IAF? I would probably say at leat in year 2020.

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## kaykay

wanglaokan said:


> We are progressing everyday.....You know What China speed means. WS15 engine has 16 tons thrust power is finished ground test three months ago, we could mount that on j10 variants in the future. Most Importantly, we can build thousands of it if we'd like to



well here you are talking about a 16 ton engine....and I am talking about 2*9 tons means 18 tons......even though J10B will be equipped with single 16 ton engine, it will be still inferior to 2*90 tons....again sencma is working on a 110KN variant too...I will get back to you once I will find that source...that will lead to 2*11=22tons....


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## hurt

kaykay said:


> well here you are talking about a 16 ton engine....and I am talking about 2*9 tons means 18 tons......even though J10B will be equipped with single 16 ton engine, it will be still inferior to 2*90 tons....again sencma is working on a 110KN variant too...I will get back to you once I will find that source...that will lead to 2*11=22tons....



you only say 'will',you are always in 'will'

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## S10

kaykay said:


> well here you are talking about a 16 ton engine....and I am talking about 2*9 tons means 18 tons......even though J10B will be equipped with single 16 ton engine, it will be still inferior to 2*90 tons....again sencma is working on a 110KN variant too...I will get back to you once I will find that source...that will lead to 2*11=22tons....


You haven't even signed the deal yet, meanwhile the J-10B is already finishing up trials. The main problem of your country is that you always live in your future plans, not in the present.

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## xuxu1457

how many J-11 and J-10 China force has?? 
from this exercise, 108 J-10+J11 from 14 Aviation Regiments, means choose 7 from one aviation regiment, 1/4 of one aviation regiment(108*4=432). and also has one J10 imaginary enemy aviation regiment(28) and one J-11 imaginary enemy aviation regiment(28), another one J-10 +J-11 aviation regiment in pilot training center(28); 
So PLAF has 108*4+28*2+28=516 J-10+J11

and PLAN has 2 J-11 aviation regiments and 1 J-10 aviation regiment, about 70

So PLAF and PLAN have 586 J-11 and J-10 now


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## Akasa

kaykay said:


> well rafale's AESA is known to everyone....while there is no proof about your 1200 T/R AESA...last time you guys 'claimed' that but unfortunately that radar happened to be a PESA...LOLz....now come to engine part...right now J10 is equipped with a engine having 123KN thrust...where as rafale is having two engines having 150KN thrust combined....by the time J10B would be equipped with better engine,Indian rafales also be equipped with better engines....as that is planned to replace the current engines with m88-2 engines which have thrust more than 180KN combined.......and would you please mention the 'sensor fusion' where rafale is inferior???



Here, straight from the manufacturer itself, the J-10B has AESA and 1200 T/R modules:







China has built many fighter based AESA radars already and the one for the J-10B was selected via competition since it suited the aircraft perfectly. The other AESA radars went to the J-15, J-11B, J-16 instead.

I'm going to be lenient here and not ask for sources about Rafale's AESA, but the largest figure I've come across is 880 and I've seen none higher.

First of all, the WS-10B on the J-10B has a thrust of 136 kN and the twin engines on the Rafales will add a hugea amount of weight. That is going to negate the advantages of having twin engines in the first place. NOt to mention that the J-10B incorporates a significant amount of composites.

The J-10B's sensor fusion comes into play during BVR warfare, where situational awareness is important. The J-10B's electronics are solid state, and all the aircraft's monitors are fed directly into the cockpit, which is HMDS compatible. The J-10B in fact incorporates a significant portion of scaled down fifth generation technology under its skin.

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## Lyrical Mockery

Magnificent pictures. Love the colours.


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## SinoChallenger

kaykay said:


> but again the Indian rafale will be equipped with better engine 'M88-3' which is having thrust more than 180KN combined....even one TVC engine variant is being developed but I doubt that India will opt for that....so no j10b advantage over rafale regarding TWR.


  

In the time it took india to choose a 4.5 generation fighter aircraft, China already developed a 5th generation aircraft. india simply doesn't have the money to buy Rafale because it is poorer than Sub-Saharan Africa. By the time india actually signs the deal, China will already have 500+ J-20 and J-31.

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## Storm Force

Sino 

this is not true and you know it


> In the time it took india to choose a 4.5 generation fighter aircraft, China already developed a 5th generation aircraft. india simply doesn't have the money to buy Rafale because it is poorer than Sub-Saharan Africa. By the time india actually signs the deal, China will already have 500+ J-20 and J-31.
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/chines...shes-j-10-plaaf-exercise-6.html#ixzz2EgKHjxNk



Whislt i agree there are hundreds of milions of poor african style there is GREAT DEAL OF MONEY IN INDIA NOW

i AGREE INDIA takes too long inducting military hardware both indengious and import


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## Su-11

DrSomnath999 said:


> *DEBUNKING OF CHINESE WET DREAMS ABOUT J 10B SUPERIOTY OVER RAFALE*


*DEBUNKING OF CHINESE WET DREAMS ABOUT J 10B SUPERIOTY OVER RAFALE*

Chinese claims that i quote



*I)The J-10B incorporates 1200 T/R AESA, which is larger than the 880 T/R RBE-2,* 

ans:
well

1st of all there is a lot of uncertanity about whether J10b really poses AESA or PESA .ok lets us assume what NIET claims is
correct that J10b indeed has an AESA radar but still we dont have any accurate infos about it's specification like detection range ,scan rate ,peak power, 

but we do get some idea about china's AESA radar from this chinese source that it may be having 1152 T/R modules

http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard/uploads/20110723111055450.gif

http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard/uploads/20110723111055619.gif

http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard/uploads/20110723111055270.gif

AESA radar for J-10B will have 1152 T/R module

well it's didn't signify any thing about it's detection range ,scan rate ,peak power, T/R modules compostion whther GaAs or GaN ??

As the article described, the aesa radar configuration can be changed according to the nose size of the aircraft, for example, different T/R number for J-10 and J-11 .But still a long way to go for china to build an AESA radar of a fighter comparable in technology with US or European standard especially in terms of LPI(low probabilty of intercept) & electronic jamming.

also J 10b radar which we saw in net is a test model of AESA radar not a full production AESA radar which has around 8 IFF
dipole antenna in the main array each having capabilty of handling 2 targets at the same time which means 16 targets simultaneosly(according to WIKIpedia which the chinese members often say a very reliable source ) 
in comparsiion RBE 2 aesa radar can track upto 40 air targets in look down & look up aspects in all weather under intense electronic environment









meanwhile 

rafale though claimed to have 1000 T/R modules but Pics say it has around 880 T/R modules but that doesnt mean J10's aesa radar becomes superior as greater size radar may be powerful but that doesnt mean technologically superior.
Well the quality of /or technology used to built T/R module of an AESA radar is more important than numbers as it should be more reliable .Well Su 30 mki bars radar even if it's a PESA radar is a very powerful radar with long detection range but it is technologically inferior to AESA radar.






advantage of RBE 2 AESA radar 
1) SAR (synthetic aperature mode)

2)MMIC (mono lithic microwave integrated circuits )/GaAs (gallium arsenide) technology T/R modules 
in future it may be built with GAllium nitride modules with sat com abilty
Thales reveals 'cloud' concept for Rafale radar technologies



3) it creates a 3 dimensional ground map covering wide area forward of the aircraft during low altitude penetration mission

4) It's has much better LPI which is more important in todays aerial combat as todays fighter /Awacs ESM (electronic support
measures) or RWR (radar warning receiver) system are more powerful in detecting radar waves of fighter aircraft exposing it's cover or location in air which can be fatal in aerial combat.


5) It along with spectra system increases rafale's electronic jamming capabilty even further

6) enhanced detection of low observable targets & improved resistance to electronic jamming

7) much better 5th gen System core / COTS for faster computation

Conclusion 
U just cant compare the technological experience of china in buiding AESA radar with the french Thales which have decades of experience in building radar starting from Mirage 2000 to rafale rbe radar.If thats was not the case why would have pak airforce officials died to have french avionics in their JF17 in comparision to chinese



*II)INCREASED CONCENTRATION OF COMPOSITES*

ans:
& thats absolutely B.S
J10b' s composites concentration is no way greater than Rafale infact dassault itself claims rafale's composite concentration is more than 70 %
Optimized airframe





Hexcel company of france which supplies composties to rafale are pioneer in developing composites for aircraft meanwhile god knows what is the standard of chinese composites .????
Hexcel Composites - France 
Hexcel.com - Carbon fiber and composites for aerospace, wind energy and industrial







*III)BETTER RAM COATING*


Ans:
another garbage assumption!!

rafale has much high quality RAM coating than j10 ,and what cheap quality RAM coating china uses we can see from the
pics of J20 when white flecks or patches are visible on plane surface when RAM shed off it's surface.Only J20 looks shiny in
photoshop pics only.










infact RAM coating can be seen in such places in rafale where u dont find in j10b
like external refuelling probe ,


*IV)DSI*

ANs:
yes 1 innovative thing for J10b
DSI has an advantage in performance & some aspects in stealth as it removes the gap present in between the diverter blade 
& fuselarge of the plane.but to be fair enough it has no major role in combat.

But some analyst says DSI cant withstand mach 2+ Speeds which is yet to be proven ???? optimum speed for DSI is around 
MACh 1.6-1.7 like that we see in jf 17 & F-35 So it needs to be seen can J10b achieve mach 2+ speed which J10A claims to have



*V)136 Kn ENGINE*

ans:
WS 10A 132 Kn engine right from the very beginnning has been under lot of scrutiny though chinese are determined to induct it no matter how good or bad it performs.Though WS 10b has been boasting of 136 Kn along with TVC which is still in development .Yes they have inducted WS 10a engines in J11b & even j-15 is going to have those engines ,but those are twin engine fighters
meanwhile inducting a single INDIGENIOUS engine fighter hasnt been so easy for chinese may be inducting a twin engine fighter with indigeniuos engines is more safer & reliable in comparision to a single indigenous engine fighter.Well same goes for WS 13engines i think for Jf17 also .& that too rumours ofchinese buying russian engines keep on popping in the media or internet every now & then .




infact serious misconception exists in the mind of our chinese friends about WS 10A 136kn advantage over Scnema M88 3 engine 

u should understand thrust to weight ratio of plane is more important than thrust of engine of a plane

which rafale Thrust/weight ratio : 1.10 (100% fuel, 2 EM A2A missile, 2 IR A2A missile) excels in comparision to 
J10b Thrust/weight ratio : 0.96 (with AL-31); 1.017 (with WS-10A) thaanks to it's twin engines fighter 


other advantages of Rafale's M88 3 /M88 eco engines

1) it can supercruise but WS 10A no

2) it has far less IR signature than WS 10A thanks to it's 2 cooling channels

3) it's better engine TBO 

4) scenema FADEC is much superior to WS 10a




*VI)Mach 2 speed* 

Ans:
another funny ideology i think one should understand that plane cannot attain mach 2 speed every time if it does that it would be through help of after burner the plane would ran out of entire fuel stored in it & it would increase plane's IR
signature a lot which would be visible by enemy' IRST like rafale's FSO which is claimed to be capable of detecting IR signatures of plane from 120km .

well it is much better to have supercruise planes which doent need after burners to maintain speed which rafale has .If thats
the case then Mirage 2000 which has a top speed well above mach2+ would be superior to F-35 which has mach 1.7 as top speed

*VII)20300 m service ceiling*

ANS:
i would rather say it's vintage aerial combat ideology our chinese friends beleive that having a faster plane with higher ceiling would help them to release BVR missiles at such height which would give their BVR missiles more kinetic energy with more range & they would destroy rafale with it's SD 10 A or B misssiles at much longer range & rafale pilots would be sitting ducks & would not be having any self protection suite like SPECTRA in order to save their A$$es .LOOLLZ


well it's true that indeed BVR missiles range increase at high altitudes & with increased speed but it doent increase it's 
kill probabilty of BVraam missile . Infact Kill probabilty of a missile depends upon the quality of seeker(IR or EM) of missile & abilty of ECM of enemy target plane rather than range of a missile.Meanwhile Rafale has one of the most deadliest

BVRAAM of this planet the Meteor worlds 1st ramjet powered missile having one of the largest No escape zone (NEZ) 
&
MICA IR
bvaam missile which is one of longest IR missile availabe right now.

& for self protection against chinese missiles rafale has SPECTRA electronic warfare suite which i hope doent need introduction as everyone knows about it's capabilty.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

all credits to respective members

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## S10

We have J-10B finishing up trial and J-20 undergoing development right here at home. You Indians "plan" to purchase the Rafale, in which the deal hasn't even finalized yet amongst your political bickering. The problem with your country in general is that you always count your chickens before they hatch. You constantly say "we're going have A,B,C", but never focus on your present. The reality is that you cannot even develop your own plane despite massive foreign parts and assistance, yet you want to compare yourselves to China?

The gap will only grow bigger from now.

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## Akasa

Su-11 said:


> *DEBUNKING OF CHINESE WET DREAMS ABOUT J 10B SUPERIOTY OVER RAFALE*
> 
> Chinese claims that i quote
> 
> 
> 
> *I)The J-10B incorporates 1200 T/R AESA, which is larger than the 880 T/R RBE-2,*
> 
> ans:
> well
> 
> 1st of all there is a lot of uncertanity about whether J10b really poses AESA or PESA .ok lets us assume what NIET claims is
> correct that J10b indeed has an AESA radar but still we dont have any accurate infos about it's specification like detection range ,scan rate ,peak power,
> 
> but we do get some idea about china's AESA radar from this chinese source that it may be having 1152 T/R modules
> 
> http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard/uploads/20110723111055450.gif
> 
> http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard/uploads/20110723111055619.gif
> 
> http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard/uploads/20110723111055270.gif
> 
> AESA radar for J-10B will have 1152 T/R module
> 
> well it's didn't signify any thing about it's detection range ,scan rate ,peak power, T/R modules compostion whther GaAs or GaN ??
> 
> As the article described, the aesa radar configuration can be changed according to the nose size of the aircraft, for example, different T/R number for J-10 and J-11 .But still a long way to go for china to build an AESA radar of a fighter comparable in technology with US or European standard especially in terms of LPI(low probabilty of intercept) & electronic jamming.
> 
> also J 10b radar which we saw in net is a test model of AESA radar not a full production AESA radar which has around 8 IFF
> dipole antenna in the main array each having capabilty of handling 2 targets at the same time which means 16 targets simultaneosly(according to WIKIpedia which the chinese members often say a very reliable source )
> in comparsiion RBE 2 aesa radar can track upto 40 air targets in look down & look up aspects in all weather under intense electronic environment
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> meanwhile
> 
> rafale though claimed to have 1000 T/R modules but Pics say it has around 880 T/R modules but that doesnt mean J10's aesa radar becomes superior as greater size radar may be powerful but that doesnt mean technologically superior.
> Well the quality of /or technology used to built T/R module of an AESA radar is more important than numbers as it should be more reliable .Well Su 30 mki bars radar even if it's a PESA radar is a very powerful radar with long detection range but it is technologically inferior to AESA radar.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> advantage of RBE 2 AESA radar
> 1) SAR (synthetic aperature mode)
> 
> 2)MMIC (mono lithic microwave integrated circuits )/GaAs (gallium arsenide) technology T/R modules
> in future it may be built with GAllium nitride modules with sat com abilty
> Thales reveals 'cloud' concept for Rafale radar technologies
> 
> 
> 
> 3) it creates a 3 dimensional ground map covering wide area forward of the aircraft during low altitude penetration mission
> 
> 4) It's has much better LPI which is more important in todays aerial combat as todays fighter /Awacs ESM (electronic support
> measures) or RWR (radar warning receiver) system are more powerful in detecting radar waves of fighter aircraft exposing it's cover or location in air which can be fatal in aerial combat.
> 
> 
> 5) It along with spectra system increases rafale's electronic jamming capabilty even further
> 
> 6) enhanced detection of low observable targets & improved resistance to electronic jamming
> 
> 7) much better 5th gen System core / COTS for faster computation
> 
> Conclusion
> U just cant compare the technological experience of china in buiding AESA radar with the french Thales which have decades of experience in building radar starting from Mirage 2000 to rafale rbe radar.If thats was not the case why would have pak airforce officials died to have french avionics in their JF17 in comparision to chinese
> 
> 
> 
> *II)INCREASED CONCENTRATION OF COMPOSITES*
> 
> ans:
> & thats absolutely B.S
> J10b' s composites concentration is no way greater than Rafale infact dassault itself claims rafale's composite concentration is more than 70 %
> Optimized airframe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hexcel company of france which supplies composties to rafale are pioneer in developing composites for aircraft meanwhile god knows what is the standard of chinese composites .????
> Hexcel Composites - France
> Hexcel.com - Carbon fiber and composites for aerospace, wind energy and industrial
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *III)BETTER RAM COATING*
> 
> 
> Ans:
> another garbage assumption!!
> 
> rafale has much high quality RAM coating than j10 ,and what cheap quality RAM coating china uses we can see from the
> pics of J20 when white flecks or patches are visible on plane surface when RAM shed off it's surface.Only J20 looks shiny in
> photoshop pics only.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> infact RAM coating can be seen in such places in rafale where u dont find in j10b
> like external refuelling probe ,
> 
> 
> *IV)DSI*
> 
> ANs:
> yes 1 innovative thing for J10b
> DSI has an advantage in performance & some aspects in stealth as it removes the gap present in between the diverter blade
> & fuselarge of the plane.but to be fair enough it has no major role in combat.
> 
> But some analyst says DSI cant withstand mach 2+ Speeds which is yet to be proven ???? optimum speed for DSI is around
> MACh 1.6-1.7 like that we see in jf 17 & F-35 So it needs to be seen can J10b achieve mach 2+ speed which J10A claims to have
> 
> 
> 
> *V)136 Kn ENGINE*
> 
> ans:
> WS 10A 132 Kn engine right from the very beginnning has been under lot of scrutiny though chinese are determined to induct it no matter how good or bad it performs.Though WS 10b has been boasting of 136 Kn along with TVC which is still in development .Yes they have inducted WS 10a engines in J11b & even j-15 is going to have those engines ,but those are twin engine fighters
> meanwhile inducting a single INDIGENIOUS engine fighter hasnt been so easy for chinese may be inducting a twin engine fighter with indigeniuos engines is more safer & reliable in comparision to a single indigenous engine fighter.Well same goes for WS 13engines i think for Jf17 also .& that too rumours ofchinese buying russian engines keep on popping in the media or internet every now & then .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> infact serious misconception exists in the mind of our chinese friends about WS 10A 136kn advantage over Scnema M88 3 engine
> 
> u should understand thrust to weight ratio of plane is more important than thrust of engine of a plane
> 
> which rafale Thrust/weight ratio : 1.10 (100% fuel, 2 EM A2A missile, 2 IR A2A missile) excels in comparision to
> J10b Thrust/weight ratio : 0.96 (with AL-31); 1.017 (with WS-10A) thaanks to it's twin engines fighter
> 
> 
> other advantages of Rafale's M88 3 /M88 eco engines
> 
> 1) it can supercruise but WS 10A no
> 
> 2) it has far less IR signature than WS 10A thanks to it's 2 cooling channels
> 
> 3) it's better engine TBO
> 
> 4) scenema FADEC is much superior to WS 10a
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *VI)Mach 2 speed*
> 
> Ans:
> another funny ideology i think one should understand that plane cannot attain mach 2 speed every time if it does that it would be through help of after burner the plane would ran out of entire fuel stored in it & it would increase plane's IR
> signature a lot which would be visible by enemy' IRST like rafale's FSO which is claimed to be capable of detecting IR signatures of plane from 120km .
> 
> well it is much better to have supercruise planes which doent need after burners to maintain speed which rafale has .If thats
> the case then Mirage 2000 which has a top speed well above mach2+ would be superior to F-35 which has mach 1.7 as top speed
> 
> *VII)20300 m service ceiling*
> 
> ANS:
> i would rather say it's vintage aerial combat ideology our chinese friends beleive that having a faster plane with higher ceiling would help them to release BVR missiles at such height which would give their BVR missiles more kinetic energy with more range & they would destroy rafale with it's SD 10 A or B misssiles at much longer range & rafale pilots would be sitting ducks & would not be having any self protection suite like SPECTRA in order to save their A$$es .LOOLLZ
> 
> 
> well it's true that indeed BVR missiles range increase at high altitudes & with increased speed but it doent increase it's
> kill probabilty of BVraam missile . Infact Kill probabilty of a missile depends upon the quality of seeker(IR or EM) of missile & abilty of ECM of enemy target plane rather than range of a missile.Meanwhile Rafale has one of the most deadliest
> 
> BVRAAM of this planet the Meteor worlds 1st ramjet powered missile having one of the largest No escape zone (NEZ)
> &
> MICA IR
> bvaam missile which is one of longest IR missile availabe right now.
> 
> & for self protection against chinese missiles rafale has SPECTRA electronic warfare suite which i hope doent need introduction as everyone knows about it's capabilty.
> 
> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> 
> all credits to respective members



THe only thing you've debunked is your honesty and sanity. The arguments you gave were all disproven and the links you posted have been refuted by the very manufacturers themselves. If you can't accept the fact that the J-10B incorporates the same kind of upgrades as the Rafale (and to greater extent), then perhaps we finally know why your leaders have failed to propel your military industry beyond the Cold War stage. Funny.

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## Type 055

at Su-11

Dude your sources are as reliable as a blog like strategy page. Everything else is your delusional opinion. RAM coating is not even on this current prototype of the J-20. Why the hell do you put RAM coating for such an early stage prototype. RAM will be put in later prototypes. Continue your pipe dream. China has surpassed France in everything except engines, and even that China will overtake them during this decade.

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## Pakistanisage

Armstrong said:


> Dude I think the reason why we haven't ordered the FC-20 is because we're broke right now ! And we can't rely on the 'soft loans' anymore because we've already financed much of our acquisitions from there. I think we're waiting for the economy to pick up in the next few years before we commit to more acquisitions.





I don't think China will sell J-20 to any Foreign Air Force, not even Pakistan Air Force. The only 5th Generation fighter they are planning to sell to a Foreign Air Force is J-31 and even that is atleast 5 years away to be operational.

Besides J-20 is too heavy a fighter to fit in Pakistan Air Force Strategy/Doctrine.

Sorry Armstrong my bad, I just saw you were talking about FC-20 which is actually J10 for us. FC20 is the PLAAF designation.

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## Type 055

America don't sell the F-22. China won't sell the J-20.


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## hurt

Type 055 said:


> America don't sell the F-22. China won't sell the J-20.



America can sell F-14 to Iran,we can sell J-20 to Pakistan.

but I think it is too Expensive for Pakistan. 

J-31 will be a good choice

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## IceCold

The time for J-10 for Pakistan is gone. It is not just about when you get the plane but also the fact that you need time to establish training facilities, logistics, repair, maintenance and more importantly time to train your pilots to know the inside out of the plane. We have delayed the raising squadron strength for the JF-17 for the very same reason above, J-10 is an altogether different ball game.
J-10 has too many variables left, no domestic engine for now, china's own requirements, no money on our part. Soft loans would not cut it either. 
If our economy gets back on track and that is a big "IF" it will not be before 2020 and by then it makes no sense to induct another 4.5th generation fighter jet.


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## Black Widow

To all who mocked Huge RCS of Su27 Family... I once said, RCS hardly matter in case of 4th generation fighters. Thing matter is Radar, Avionics, Pilot Skills and Arms. 


No matter how huge RCS Heavy fighters (Su27 family, F15 family) has it can crush LightWeight and Medium fighter any given day. Su27 (J11) supremacy over Lavi (J10) is not unexpected. 


It would be news if Lavi would have wiped out Su27 ...


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## Type 055

Black Widow said:


> To all who mocked Huge RCS of Su27 Family... I once said, RCS hardly matter in case of 4th generation fighters. Thing matter is Radar, Avionics, Pilot Skills and Arms.
> 
> 
> No matter how huge RCS Heavy fighters (Su27 family, F15 family) has it can crush LightWeight and Medium fighter any given day. Su27 (J11) supremacy over Lavi (J10) is not unexpected.
> 
> 
> It would be news if Lavi would have wiped out Su27 ...



Nice troll at the end there. Couldn't help yourself could you?


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## Black Widow

Type 055 said:


> Nice troll at the end there. Couldn't help yourself could you?





First get your post count above 2000, then declare me troll... Prove any of my point made here wrong..


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## giant panda

J-10 is the undisputed Super Air king in PLAAF now. 
SU-27 or J-11 was no match for the J-10 in the most of PLAAF exercises.


----------



## Arsalan

the comparison is first place is wrong. You cannot compare two totally different platforms with different roles.
J-11, being a heavy weight will have both its advantages and disadvantages over J-10. All this have been discussed time and time again. Both have there own use, thus, there own advantages in certain scenario!

As for PAF intrest, J-10 is a type we have always preferred. Light, agile and easy to maintain. its not only about buying a certain plane when you are building your air force. The costs of flying and maintenance will also come into play. 
PAF prefers lighter, single engine modern combat aircraft with a decent payload that can DEFEND our skies! We never were into DEEP STRIKES!
Also check J-10 combat radius and you will see that a DEEP STRIKE wont either be impossible!!

regards~


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## hurt

Black Widow said:


> To all who mocked Huge RCS of Su27 Family... I once said, RCS hardly matter in case of 4th generation fighters. Thing matter is Radar, Avionics, Pilot Skills and Arms.
> 
> 
> No matter how huge RCS Heavy fighters (Su27 family, F15 family) has it can crush LightWeight and Medium fighter any given day. Su27 (J11) supremacy over Lavi (J10) is not unexpected.
> 
> 
> It would be news if Lavi would have wiped out Su27 ...



Lavi= J-10?LOL,Its a joy.
Plz see whats J-9 and F-16.

about lavi,I can tell you that J-8II's fire-control system is IAI's for Python-3.


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## hudergrosse

maybe chinese would export j31 if they are available, just like the US selling JSF to other countries


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## S10

Black Widow said:


> To all who mocked Huge RCS of Su27 Family... I once said, RCS hardly matter in case of 4th generation fighters. Thing matter is Radar, Avionics, Pilot Skills and Arms.
> 
> 
> No matter how huge RCS Heavy fighters (Su27 family, F15 family) has it can crush LightWeight and Medium fighter any given day. Su27 (J11) supremacy over Lavi (J10) is not unexpected.
> 
> 
> It would be news if Lavi would have wiped out Su27 ...


First of all, J-10 is based on J-9, a program which predates the Lavi by almost a decade. Unless you want to imply that Lavi was based on the J-9, I suggest you stick to talking about the mini-Mirage 2000 you call LCA.










Second, the J-10 has always performed better than J-11 in previous exercise. The J-11 was able to gain the upperhand this year by adapting new tactics. I wouldn't be surprised if the results reversed again next year.

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## xhw1986

An armed Chinese fighter jet conducted what Pentagon officials called an aggressive midair intercept of a U.S. Navy submarine-hunting aircraft during a routine patrol above international waters.

Pentagon spokesman Rear Adm. John Kirby said the incident occurred Aug. 19 about 135 miles east of Hainan island in the South China Sea and involved a Navy P-8 Poseidon plane.

*He said the Chinese fighter made three passes dangerously near the U.S. plane. The jet also zoomed directly in front of the Navy plane at a 90-degree angle to reveal its belly, which was packed with weaponry, he said.
*
*At one point, Kirby said, the Chinese warplane flew alongside the Navy aircraft, putting their wingtips as close as 30 feet apart. The encounter ended with the Chinese pilot doing a barrel roll over the top of the U.S. plane.*

Kirby called the incident "very, very close" and "very dangerous."

The Obama administration has lodged a protest to China through official diplomatic channels.

Chinese fighter jet intercepted Navy sub-hunter plane in South China Sea - LA Times

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## Beast

Chinese captain maverick? I am wondering did he show the finger at the P-8 like what the top gun movie do. Lol...

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## Sage

He should've shown the real 'birdie' to Yankee

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## cnleio

This Navy officier looks like Nicolas Cage

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## scherz

not even close.

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## Genesis

Beast said:


> Chinese captain maverick? I am wondering did he show the finger at the P-8 like what the top gun movie do. Lol...


wouldn't work, the P-8 pilot can't see it, unlike in the movie.

Also like in the movie J-10 attack or something, that crap movie did say we will do exactly this to any foreign planes that has designs on China. 

So can't say we didn't warn them.


----------



## JSCh

cnleio said:


> This Navy officier looks like Nicolas Cage


He look like Jim Carrey to me.

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## That Guy

This sounds more like an aileron roll, rather than a barrel roll.


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## trident2010

Gave a nice, fully loaded, accurate J-11 radar profile to P-8A to feed in their anti-aircraft missiles. What was the point?


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## ice bomb

P8A got anti-aircraft missiles??


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## S-A-B-E-R->

trident2010 said:


> Gave a nice, fully loaded, accurate J-11 radar profile to P-8A to feed in their anti-aircraft missiles. What was the point?


not necessarily that is one thing most AFs avoid in such confrontations. remember these areas are heavy survalled with ground and air radars a jet only need its IRST in such situations.



ice bomb said:


> P8A got anti-aircraft missiles??



non its a maritime patrol aircraft with air to surface missiles and torpedoes


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## Beidou2020

trident2010 said:


> Gave a nice, fully loaded, accurate J-11 radar profile to P-8A to feed in their anti-aircraft missiles. What was the point?



PLA knows a lot more than an Indian on PDF.

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## Europa

cnleio said:


> This Navy officier looks like Nicolas Cage


----------



## trident2010

Beidou2020 said:


> PLA knows a lot more than an Indian on PDF.



My comment was not about PLA at all but USAF. Use Google translator if you couldn't understand what I said in English.

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## xunzi

Why didn't our American cry for us when their puppet Japan intercepted so close to our plane?

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## HttpError

aww yankes started crying

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## Oldman1

xunzi said:


> Why didn't our American cry for us when their puppet Japan intercepted so close to our plane?



Did it do barrel rolls or anything reckless?


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## Nan Yang

J10 doing Barrel row at 0.40


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## gambit

That Guy said:


> This sounds more like an aileron roll, rather than a barrel roll.


If the event happened as described, it was a barrel roll, not an aileron roll.


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## Windjammer

@gambit, Sir i came across this log on US spy planes shot down during the cold war, I mean we seldom hear of any Reds being shot down in similar circumstances, is US the only violator or have the likes of Soviets met the same fate.

*Cold War Spyplane Incidents*


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## xunzi

Oldman1 said:


> Did it do barrel rolls or anything reckless?


Everything comes out of your mouth and it's the truth. Well we do know one fact, you have a habit of exaggerating just like the Iraq false flag. You lost that credibility a long time ago.

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## gambit

Windjammer said:


> @gambit, Sir i came across this log on US spy planes shot down during the cold war, I mean we seldom hear of any Reds being shot down in similar circumstances, is US the only violator or have the likes of Soviets met the same fate.
> 
> *Cold War Spyplane Incidents*


If the Soviets shot any of our flights down, they must say it is because their airspace was trespassed. What else can we expect them to say ? If they lost any, they will never admit the loss. Most of these flights on both sides during the Cold War are still national secrets. The intel they gathered back then are still relevant today. The US is still the same, and Russia is the inheritor of the Soviet system. What we knew of each other back then is useful in gauging the behaviors of both sides today, hence why the intel are still secret, and so are their gathering methods.


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## Windjammer

gambit said:


> If the Soviets shot any of our flights down, they must say it is because their airspace was trespassed. What else can we expect them to say ? If they lost any, they will never admit the loss. Most of these flights on both sides during the Cold War are still national secrets. The intel they gathered back then are still relevant today. The US is still the same, and Russia is the inheritor of the Soviet system. What we knew of each other back then is useful in gauging the behaviors of both sides today, hence why the intel are still secret, and so are their gathering methods.


Thanks for that, may be i didn't put my question right, what i meant to ask was, is there any record or news of any Soviet aircraft or spy plane getting shot down while violating US airspace. It's no secret that both countries carried out recce flights over each others territory.


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## gambit

Windjammer said:


> Thanks for that, may be i didn't put my question right, what i meant to ask was, is there any record or news of any Soviet aircraft or spy plane getting shot down while violating US airspace. It's no secret that *both countries carried out recce flights over each others territory.*


There are many types of these flights.

If physical evidences, such as troops movements or building locations, are needed, then it would be a photography mission. These flights can involve border violations, especially if the aircraft cannot fly high enough for the cameras to take effective angle shots. That is why the US built the SR-71 with its high altitude, borderline orbital, for these missions without crossing into hostile airspaces. If we did violate Soviet airspace, which everyone know such incursions are open 'secret', we would never admit it to conceal our true capabilities and the Soviets/Russians would never admit it for fear of appearing vulnerable.

If electromagnetic (EM) data are needed, then the mission is signals intelligence (SIGINT) and we do not need to violate borders for these signals. The presence of any unidentified aircraft, such as a SIGINT aircraft, is enough to be provocative of EM activities such as those coming from radars. SIGINT flights are both provocative and intelligence gathering.

If defense response data are needed, then the mission is simply provocative, such as the usual Soviet/Russian Bear bombers heading towards the Alaskan coasts. The Bear does not ID itself, we responded by sending up a pair of Eagles, and the Soviet aircrews record the times of activities by both sides. If there are no responses, it is unlikely that the Bear would actually fly into US airspace. May be such did happened. I do not presume to know of any. But actually flying into someone's sovereign airspace is extremely risky because once you crossed over the border, you could be shot down and all the data you gathered, photo or EM, are lost. Better to just simply get as close as you can, record the time and distance, then head for home.

So were any Soviet recon flights that actually violated US airspace and got shot down ? For real and not rumors ? We will just have to wait when both sides are willing to be honest.

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## Oldman1

xunzi said:


> Everything comes out of your mouth and it's the truth. Well we do know one fact, you have a habit of exaggerating just like the Iraq false flag. You lost that credibility a long time ago.



All I ask was a simple question and you avoided it. Looks like you lost credibility about Japanese planes harassing your recon planes.


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## Hurter

Hats off to the Chinese pilot


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## ChineseTiger1986

Here is a good comparison between J-11A/J-11B/J-11BS.

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## rockstar08

they look similar ? or i am Partially blind ?


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## ChineseTiger1986

rockstar08 said:


> they look similar ? or i am Partially blind ?



The nose is different as the later two use the AESA radar.

The nozzle is also different as the later two use the WS-10A engine.

Also, J-11B/J-11BS look sleeker than J-11A because of the higher usage of the composite materials.

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## Steakhouse

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The nose is different as the later two use the AESA radar.
> 
> The nozzle is also different as the later two use the WS-10A engine.
> 
> Also, J-11B/J-11BS look sleeker than J-11A because of the higher usage of the composite materials.





All look the same but in different color, just like the other poster stated what the different on the nose cone between 3 aircraft beside the color painted?


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## rockstar08

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The nose is different as the later two use the AESA radar.
> 
> The nozzle is also different as the later two use the WS-10A engine.
> 
> Also, J-11B/J-11BS look sleeker than J-11A because of the higher usage of the composite materials.



thanks for pointing out ...

but wait , that means i am Partially blind now

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## ChineseTiger1986

Steakhouse said:


> All look the same but in different color, just like the other poster stated what the different on the nose cone between 3 aircraft beside the color painted?



The engine nozzle look very different.

Anyone who is familiar with the Chinese military can point out the difference immediately.


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## HttpError

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Here is a good comparison between J-11A/J-11B/J-11BS.
> 
> View attachment 187264



Looking very nice, Btw how do you compare them with Sukoi 30 MKI or even SU 27 or SU 35 ?

Btw Pakistan should definitely get them.

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## ChineseTiger1986

HttpError said:


> Looking very nice, Btw how do you compare them with Sukoi 30 MKI or even SU 27 or SU 35 ?
> 
> Btw Pakistan should definitely get them.



The latest J-11B variant is close to the specs of Su-35.

The J-16 is clearly superior to both MKK and MKI with the AESA radar.

However, I don't think that the PAF will opt for any 4++ generation aircraft.

The money will be saved for the 5th generation J-31.

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## Zarvan

I want to know what radar is being used by J-11 D ? Also does this radar match Russian Irbis-e or not ?
@Chinese-Dragon @ChineseTiger1986

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## Akasa

Its radar is supposedly an AESA system developed by the 14th Institute, the same organization responsible for the radar systems aboard the J-10B and J-20. Previous 4.5-generation Chinese Flankers such as the J-15S and J-16 use an AESA radar developed by the 607th Institue, which is a main competitor to the 14th Institute. 607th's radar has 1760 T/R modules and is capable of detecting a 0.1 m^2 target at 250 km or a 0.4 m^2 target at 280 km, which works out to a detection range (for a 1 m^2 target) of 450 km.

The 14th Institute is known for its advanced module packing design, a testament to which is the selection of its AESA radar over 607th Institute's AESA radar for the J-10B program (i.e. the 607th Institute could not pack many T/R modules for the J-10B's relatively small radome). Hence, I would expect the J-11D's radar to be even more powerful and precise than those installed aboard the J-16 and J-15S.

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## Viper0011.

Zarvan said:


> I want to know what radar is being used by J-11 D ? Also does this radar match Russian Irbis-e or not ?
> @Chinese-Dragon @ChineseTiger1986



In addition to OP's question, with 1760(?) TR modules, I'd like to know what's the simultaneous engagement capacity of J-11D's radar? FC-20 and previous Chinese radars can lock onto 2 jets, and guide 2 missiles towards two target aircraft. How does the J-11D radar work with simultaneous engagement's standpoint?

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## Zarvan

SinoSoldier said:


> Its radar is supposedly an AESA system developed by the 14th Institute, the same organization responsible for the radar systems aboard the J-10B and J-20. Previous 4.5-generation Chinese Flankers such as the J-15S and J-16 use an AESA radar developed by the 607th Institue, which is a main competitor to the 14th Institute. 607th's radar has 1760 T/R modules and is capable of detecting a 0.1 m^2 target at 250 km or a 0.4 m^2 target at 280 km, which works out to a detection range (for a 1 m^2 target) of 450 km.
> 
> The 14th Institute is known for its advanced module packing design, a testament to which is the selection of its AESA radar over 607th Institute's AESA radar for the J-10B program (i.e. the 607th Institute could not pack many T/R modules for the J-10B's relatively small radome). Hence, I would expect the J-11D's radar to be even more powerful and precise than those installed aboard the J-16 and J-15S.


You have some good information Can you compare J-11 D with SU-35 and J-10 B with Rafale I am debating with some Pakistanis and they say J-11 D don't even close to matching SU-35 and also Rafale is far far superior to J-10 B so I want full details to answer them @SinoSoldier Please reply soon


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## Akasa

Viper0011. said:


> In addition to OP's question, with 1760(?) TR modules, I'd like to know what's the simultaneous engagement capacity of J-11D's radar? FC-20 and previous Chinese radars can lock onto 2 jets, and guide 2 missiles towards two target aircraft. How does the J-11D radar work with simultaneous engagement's standpoint?



I think the pulse-Doppler radars aboard the J-11B and first-batch J-15 can lock on to 4-6 targets, depending on the missile used. The J-10A's and JH-7A's radars can also fire four BVRAAMs in one go.



Zarvan said:


> You have some good information Can you compare J-11 D with SU-35 and J-10 B with Rafale I am debating with some Pakistanis and they say J-11 D don't even close to matching SU-35 and also Rafale is far far superior to J-10 B so I want full details to answer them



I'm not the person to go to if you want full technical comparisons between the aircraft, but I'll try my best to make a judgment based on what tentative information we have:


- The J-11D and Su-35 differ mostly in the avionics (AESA vs PESA, respectively) as well as powerplant (140 kN w/o TVC vs 142 kN with TVC)
- J-11D and Su-35 both incorporate airframe enhancements, including additional RAM and composite materials
- J-11D and Su-35 share the role of air superiority and thus will likely sport similar sets of weaponry (PL-12, PL-21, and the PL ASR is expected for the J-11D while the R-77, R-37, etc, will be slated for the Su-35)
- I would expect the J-11D to sport a newer mission computer by virtue of it simply being a newer aircraft, although the Su-35 has likely undergone incremental upgrades as well

In short, the Su-35 and J-11D are very similar aircraft, both conceptually and operationallly. Technical nuances such as TVC and radar arrays can be judged by the customer and the specific requirements for which they are procured.

J-10B and Rafale:

- Both the J-10B and Rafale have advanced avionics (they are the first combat aircraft in Asia and Europe, respectively, to have a modernized and full-sized AESA radars); the J-10B's radar has 1200 T/R modules while the Rafale's RBE2 reportedly has around ~800.
- The Rafale's selling point is its advanced OSF and Spectra integrated EW system; the J-10B also has an "integrated electronic system" ranging from its radar to EW system that is connected by an optic HSDB (whatever that means), but I'm not exactly sure how it compares to the Spectra in terms of capabilities or role
- Both aircraft incorporate airframe enhancements (such as RAM and composite materials)
- Both aircraft are roughly comparable in size (although Rafale is a bit larger)
- When the J-10B is equipped with a Al-31FN M3 or WS-10B engine, its T/W ratio is slightly higher than that of the Rafale with its Snecma M88 engines

As with the above comparison, the J-10B and Rafale share the same niche with their differences being attributed to different needs and operating environments.

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## gambit

> ...capable of detecting a 0.1 m^2 target at 250 km or a 0.4 m^2 target at 280 km, which works out to a detection range (for a 1 m^2 target) of 450 km.


This is a general FYI to the readers on how these things are spec-ed out.

When a customer goes shopping for a radar system, be it for civilian air traffic control or military combat usage, the customer will say something like:

*'I want a radar that will have a 90% probability of detection of a 5 m/square target at 200 km distance.'*

Here is where it gets tricky...

It does not mean a body have a fixed radar cross section (RCS) of 5 m2. It mean a body -- any body -- become or develops an RCS value of 5 m2. When a customer specified a probability figure, an estimated RCS value, and a distance, he has good reasons for it.

1) If the vendor can meet the 5 m2 at 200 km distance requirements but only at 80% probability, the proposed system failed to meet specs.

2) If the vendor can meet the 5 m2 at 90% probability requirements but only at 190 km distance, the proposed system failed to meet specs.

3) If the vendor can meet the 5 m2 at 90% probability requirements but at 210 km distance, the proposed system exceeded specs.

Keep in mind that a body's radar cross section (RCS) is a fictitious value. The word 'fictitious' here does not mean it is made up. In a sense, it is made up, but in the technical sense, it mean the RCS value is a real value but also is a variable, or fluctuating, that is highly influenced by many external factors, and that is why there is a percentage of probability, or guess, that something have A or B or C cross section value.

For vendor 1, the proposed system set the distance as highest priority and widened the acceptable variability of probability that the target is (somewhere around) 5 m2. The vendor is perfectly free to do this.

For vendor 2, the proposed system set probability as highest priority, meaning that if the target is estimated to be 5 m2, under lab and field verification, the system has 90% probability of that estimation. Unfortunately, the target had to be 10 km closer to the radar in order to achieve that 90% probability estimation. The civilian customer may say that 10 km closer mean increased odds of mid-air collisions in a high traffic environment and refuse to buy. The military customer may say that 10 km closer mean the enemy can destroy a vital asset and refuse to buy.

For vendor 3, the proposed system may have superior technology than his competitors in terms of hardware and software so that no matter what priority was used, either distance out or probability of RCS, the superior technology compensated.

If the target is a B-52, this target may become 5 m2 with 90% probability at 400 km distance out for vendors 1 and 2, and at 500 km distance out for vendor 3.

If the target is a B-2, this target may become 5 m2 with 90% probability at 10 km distance out for vendor 1, at 5 km distance out for vendor 2, and 20 km distance out for vendor 3.

The customer can spec-ed the system at 1 m2 with 99% probability at 300 km distance out and all three vendors would fail to meet specs. The customer has to know, not just the current technology level but the level that is available to the vendors, before he make his specs. If a potential adversary have superior technology, he cannot make his specs based upon technology that is not available the vendors in his country. Obviously, he cannot go to this potential adversary and ask if their vendors make radars for him.

So take these public figures of what radar systems can do what at so-and-so distance with suspicion. Also understand that just because a radar system have XYZ specs, that does not mean it is a peer with other systems. The figures sounds impressive stand alone, but they may pales in comparisons to other systems from other countries precisely because the vendor do not have peer technologies.

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## Deino

Thanks ... by the way any news - esp. images - of the D-version ???


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## Zarvan

Deino said:


> Thanks ... by the way any news - esp. images - of the D-version ???


I am also waiting along with full details from Chinese members


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## Viper0011.

SinoSoldier said:


> I think the pulse-Doppler radars aboard the J-11B and first-batch J-15 can lock on to 4-6 targets, depending on the missile used. The J-10A's and JH-7A's radars can also fire four BVRAAMs in one go. .



Thank you. What about the J-10B's and J-11D's? What's the track, lock and target capability of these jets through their newer radars using BVR's?


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## Beast

First J-11BS Public Flying Demo

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## SOHEIL

6 years old thread!


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## Beast

SOHEIL said:


> 6 years old thread!


Maths failed.  Last post before this is 2010...

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## Zarvan

You guys have come up with J-11 D but I haven't much read or seen J-11 C



Beast said:


> First J-11BS Public Flying Demo


You came up with J-11 D but where is J-11 C ?


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## SOHEIL

Beast said:


> Maths failed.  Last post before this is 2010...


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## RoadRunner401

*"Are short-range American tactical fighters relevant in the Pacific theatre?" US defense expert Dave Majumdar asks, adding that F-22 Raptors and F-35 Joint Strike Fighters could be outperformed by the sheer numbers of Chinese jets.*

China's J-11 fighter jets were designed as a copy of the Soviet-made Su-27/Su-33 Flanker, however, its new J-11D is considered the most advanced land-based single-seat Chinese aircraft.
Reportedly, the J-11D fighter jet is equipped with an active electronically scanned array (AESA), an air refueling system, and carries the fifth-generation PL-10 air-to-air missiles. Chinese media outlets claimed that it made its first flight in April 2015.

"China's Shengyang J-11 unlicensed derivative of the Russian-developed Su-27 Flanker has become the mainstay of the People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF). While the Chinese-built jets are not able to match US-built fighters one-for-one, China is building a lot of them," US defense expert Dave Majumdar pointed out in his article for the National Interest.

According to the expert, the J-11D "is very comparable" in a lot of respects with the Russian Su-35S. Last year Majumdar carried out a brief review of the Sukhoi Su-35S Flanker-E dubbing it "an extremely dangerous foe to any US fighter."
The expert elaborated that the J-11D is purportedly using radar absorbent materials in order to "reduce the jet's signature" and is equipped with an infrared search-and-track system (IRST) and revamped electronic warfare systems. In addition, the J-11D boasts China's most advanced WS-10 jet engine.

Majumdar insists that the US F-22 Raptors and F-35 Joint Strike Fighters are superior to their Chinese counterparts. However, US fighter jets need bases to operate from or tankers to refuel from, and that is where the shoe pinches, the expert noted.

"If there were to be a war in the Western Pacific, the massive air battles that many might envision, are not likely to take place because the United States and our allies have few bases in the region to host tactical fighters like the F-35," Majumdar pointed out, adding that in the event of a direct conflict China is almost certain to destroy these airbases.

"Further, without intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance assets, those jets couldn't be properly supported — and it becomes even more difficult when the Chinese attack the space assets and data networks that hold America's fighting forces together," the expert added.

Majumdar underscored that instead of mocking the F-35's chances of surviving in a dogfight, experts should answer the question: "Are short-range tactical fighters relevant in the Pacific theatre?"

Thorn in Pentagon's Side: China's New J-11D Jets Boast Advanced Features

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## Beast

J-11D will definitely fitted with AESA radar.

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## Jlaw

RoadRunner401 said:


> "If there were to be a war in the Western Pacific, the massive air battles that many might envision, are not likely to take place because the United States and our allies



US and her allies--pussy mentality. Good for beating up Iraq, Panama, Grenada, but balked when Iran called them out.

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## ganesh623

US as usual have the habbit of over estimating their opponents and keep them in the mirage.


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## cirr

Modernization of J-11B and J-11BS has started according to reports that emerged a few days ago。

The modernization is speculated to include an AESA radar、new avionics and 4th gen air-2-air missiles such as the PL-10 and PL-15。

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## Viper0011.

Jlaw said:


> US and her allies--pussy mentality. Good for beating up Iraq, Panama, Grenada, but balked when Iran called them out.



You forgot, we put a boot up the Russian as* for over 6 decades and broke them into fragments . You also forgot Hitler, Japanese, etc, etc? You only remember what you want to remember to do propaganda. Iran didn't bark at anyone, Iran gave up what we wanted. And if they don't, you can trust the B2's will fly from the Whiteman air base on a 30 hour direct flight to bust the land open for oil exploration. As the building structure would be buried under thousands of metric tons or rubble!!!

You also forgot another place called China. Two F-18's visit Taiwan and your media and half the political system was on TV over TWO empty jets!!! Just like there isn't a comparison between India and China as China is way ahead, China and the US have no comparison either. The US is WAY ahead!!!


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## bdslph

J11 D is the license of the su27 
that is why they cannot sale it or else Pakistan and Bangladesh would have bought it


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## BoQ77

RoadRunner401 said:


> While the Chinese-built jets are not able to match US-built fighters one-for-one, *China is building a lot of them*," US defense expert Dave Majumdar pointed out in his article for the National Interest.
> ..............
> Majumdar insists that the US F-22 Raptors and F-35 Joint Strike Fighters are superior to their Chinese counterparts. However, *US fighter jets need bases to operate from or tankers to refuel from*, and that is where the shoe pinches, the expert noted.



This expert said that China is building a lot of them. 
( While US is building a lot more )

This expert is calling for more bases ?

Clearly he described a situation in which American attacking China


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## Thunder Bolt

China's J-11B

The PLA Air Force J-11B fighters have been equipped with China-made engines, according to Yang Dechun, a pilot assigned to a division under the PLA Air Force.

The PLA Air Force held an aviation open-day activity in Changchun, northeast China’s Jilin province, on September 10, 2015, during which a J-11B fighter of the PLA Air Force conducted three demonstration flights.

Yang Dechun introduced that, “first, the J-11B fighter flew over the reviewing stand at low altitude and high speed, which reflects its low-altitude penetration capability and successful penetration can ensure its own survival, and then, it quickly ascended and then conducted a 2.5-circle roll flight during ascending, which showcases the J-11B fighter’s lateral turning flight performance.”

“After that, the J-11B fighter made an ultimate hover demonstration at an altitude of 300 meters, which exhibits its horizontal maneuvering performance, and such a performance can allow the J-11B fighter to win the flight-attitude superiority in a short period of time,” Yang Dechun continued.

“Finally, it flew over the reviewing stand again at low altitude and low speed, which shows its slow flight performance,” Yang Dechun added.

The configuration of J-11B fighter is greatly upgraded as compared with the previous fighter models, for example, the very simple human machine interface in its cockpit possesses very powerful functions and can help pilot perform all-weather combat missions against air, sea and ground targets, Yang Dechun introduced.

Yang Dechun expressed that J-11B fighter’s fire-control system can carry China’s current most advanced short-range and medium-range air-to-air missiles, and in addition, it can also carry the new-type air-to-ground ammunition, allowing it to make a certain breakthrough in enhancing its air-to-ground attack capability.

Above all, the J-11B fighters have been equipped with China-made engines, and “Our pilots feel most proud that the J-11B fighters are equipped with completely China-made engines,” Yang Dechun said.

The biggest wish of the pilots of the PLA Air Force is that their fighters are equipped with more and better engines so as to allow the PLA Air Force’s combat capability to be further upgraded, added Yang Dechun.
China Air Force’s J-11B Fighter Equipped With China-Made Engines | Air Force & Aerospace News at DefenceTalk

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## BoQ77

according to Chinese members here, it happened 5 years ago. @Deino


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## Deino

*Guys ... please do not open for each and ever individual post anew tread especially if already a tread exists for thta topic ...

I will merge all treads regarding the J-11-family into this one !*

Deino

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## kungfugymnast

BoQ77 said:


> according to Chinese members here, it happened 5 years ago. @Deino



5 years ago was 2010, the j11b was in production. Probably that's what Deino meant?

What's your comment on j11b upgraded with AESA & avionics to j11d level? Put aside stealth aircraft since air engagements nowadays would involve conventional fighters such as F15J, f16A/B/C, mirage2000, chingkuo, Mitsu F2, F/A-18e/f over sea skirmish. F22s are limited to defending inner japan unless the j11b penetrated deep into Japanese airspace.

J11b+ is lighter giving it better thrust to weight ratio, having AESA radar with user friendly LED displays and could carry mixture of Russian and Chinese air to ar & air to ground armaments ideal for present multi role fighter. They forgo Russian engines and avionics for local made, probably managed to obtained tech from Russian, French & Americans. If russian missiles less effective, they have their local missiles fitted with seekers that combined russian & western tech as backup.


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## kuge

has this posted before?

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## sheik

J-15 No. 113


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## pkd

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/653563187053375488


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## Beast

pkd said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/653563187053375488



I dont think is source code cracked. Simply China throw out the outdated Russian radar and replace with a updated domestic one.

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## Deino

Hmm ... surely this could be an option, but why don't they then have the new radome like the J-11B or even J-15 ?


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## Beast

Deino said:


> Hmm ... surely this could be an option, but why don't they then have the new radome like the J-11B or even J-15 ?


Is it necessary in the first place just to paint the radome like J-11B so as to have Chinese radar?
We have even seen Su-30MKK loaded with PL-12 missile. I dont think PLANAF bother to spend so much time to crack the source code and then spend another huge amount of time programming and try intergrating Russian radar for PL-12 BVRAAM. Simply replace the Russian radar with a domestic one sounds more logical and easier.

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## Deino

Good point, but the naval Flankers always had that white radome.
My point is simply why then did the J-11B get a new black radome if only a new radar could be installed under the old Russian radome ? Surely since the Chinese radar was not compatible with the Russian radome ... why however I don't know.

Deino


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## Beast

Deino said:


> Good point, but the naval Flankers always had that white radome.
> My point is simply why then did the J-11B get a new black radome if only a new radar could be installed under the old Russian radome ? Surely since the Chinese radar was not compatible with the Russian radome ... why however I don't know.
> 
> Deino


The radome color is probably just the pilot taste. They do not want glare and black color suits them. Btw, PLAAF are very frugal. Do not underestimate the price of those paint. A 20 litre drum of aviation paint may cost a few thousand dollar. Why bother repaint those radome? Plus PLAAF may want to preserve some element of surprise. Finally, PLAAF / PLANAF may run out of Russia ammo soon with many expiring since they never import Russian aviation ammo for long time.

Its time to replace it with domestic one together with the outdated Russian radar.

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## pkd

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/653563974269693952






__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/653562641953243136





<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">PHOTOS: Latest trials for aircraft carrier Liaoning (CV 16) and her air wing of J-15 fighters in South China Sea: <a href="CombatAir op Twitter: "PHOTOS: Latest trials for aircraft carrier Liaoning (CV 16) and her air wing of J-15 fighters in South China Sea: http://t.co/YvNj88Dsbe"">pic.twitter.com/YvNj88Dsbe</a></p>&mdash; CombatAir (@CombatAir) <a href="

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/653529621401575424">October 12, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>


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## Akasa

Deino said:


> Good point, but the naval Flankers always had that white radome.
> My point is simply why then did the J-11B get a new black radome if only a new radar could be installed under the old Russian radome ? Surely since the Chinese radar was not compatible with the Russian radome ... why however I don't know.
> 
> Deino



Perhaps because the J-11B is a new-built aircraft while the MK2s in question here is merely an retrofit?


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## kuge

golden helmet on j11D


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## Deino

kuge said:


> golden helmet on j11D




No, it's a mix of images !

First they show the J-11D and later on the recent golden Helmet winners from their regular J-11A's from the 33. Division.


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## volatile

It simply amazes me level of seriousness by China in producing Flankers .I think way they are going they will have even biggest soruce of 4+++ fighters .Great job


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## pkd

J-11BH


Hong Kong’s Singtao Daily said in its report early today that the Chinese military have published a set of photos showing that it has deployed J-11BH heavy fighters at an airport on Yongxing Island in the South China Sea, in response to a U.S.warship’s patrol of the waters within 12 nautical miles of China’s artificial islands.

Previously China deployed J-8IIs at Lingshui Airfield to patrol the South China Sea.

As the J-8II only has a range of 2,500 km, it is only able to stay for a few minutes in remote areas of the the South China Sea.

Now, China is deploying J-11BHs with a range of 5,200 km from Yongxing Island, 350 km further into the South China Sea, to effectively patrol the South China Sea in response to the U.S. warship’s patrol.

The J-11BHs belong to the Wang Wei Regiment of the PLA air force.

Wang Wei was the fighter who intercepted a U.S. renaissance aircraft in April 2001 when the U.S. aircraft allegedly came too close to China, and died due to the clash between the two aircraft.

He was later honoured as a “Sea-air Hero” and the regiment he was in was renamed the Wang Wei regiment in his memory.

For the deployment of the longer-range and more powerful and advanced fighter/bombers, the runway on Yongxing Island was lengthened to 3,000 metres last year.

That shows that China has been preparing for the U.S. planned move of patrolling the waters.

Singtao says China has plans to build more runways on the artificial islands in the South China Sea.

When those runways are put into operation, China will have much greater capabilities to control the South China Sea and expel America.

_Contributed by “Tiananmen’s Tremendous Achievements” – Author of “Tiananmen’s Tremendous Achievements” and “Space Era Strategy” – Also English/Chinese translation service_

*Source: Singtao Daily – “Fighter jets deployed on Yongxing Island: Air force extends its strength into the South China Sea” (summary by Chan Kai Yee based on the report in Chinese)

China deployed J-11BH aircraft to deal with US patrol near artificial islands in South China Sea | China Daily Mail*

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## Beast

I know what China will do. If USN destroyer comes into 12 nm of China islet again. Those J-11BH will fly so low that it will just scream over the mast of the destroyer by inches. It will repeatly harass the USN destroyer until it leaves the 12 nm range. It US destroyer fired at J-11BH, DF-26 ASBM will immediately fired to sink the destroyer.

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## Beast

Good video showing off WS-10(Taihang) engine on J-11BS, close up of the back exhaust and the inner ring.

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## Sanchez

The grey (for Su-27) or white (for Su-30MKK2) are original Russian paint color of radomes. The j-11s with latest Chinese radars are mostly in black. The same is for JH-7A (JH-7 is green) and J-10A. The new grey paint for J-10B might indicate ASEA radars.

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## Deino

Beast said:


> Good video showing off WS-10(Taihang) engine on J-11BS, close up of the back exhaust and the inner ring.



Nice that point on that issue Yourself ... ergo: the J-20's engine can't be a WS-10.

Anyway, following the latest rumours, that "mysterious" new type flown at SAC was "only" the second J-11D-prototype !


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## Deino

Is that targeting pod a Sapsan-E ?? ... however it looks different at the end !

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## Deino

It's like Christmas already !!!

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## Bratva

Deino said:


> It's like Christmas already !!!
> 
> View attachment 271161
> View attachment 271162



Is the nose con diamond shape or my eyes deceiving ? If nosecon is really changed, it means we have AESA in J-11 finally.


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## Yukihime

Bratva said:


> Is the nose con diamond shape or my eyes deceiving ? If nosecon is really changed, it means we have AESA in J-11 finally.



If you mean the J-11D, then we already have it in the middle of 2015, cheers


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## Akasa

Deino said:


> It's like Christmas already !!!
> 
> View attachment 271161
> View attachment 271162



That's odd. The serial number for the 1st prototype was "D1101" but the letter is missing here.


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## yesboss

Now if the china has it's own engines, radar & avionics and other subsystems plus its own air-frame materials and structural changes such as with this nose cone, how much can Russia still claim it to be its product and stop china from selling it to an ally . . . .. let's say such as Pakistan, which is not even a market for Russian jets and does not hurt them if china sells to Pakistan as they are not even in competition.

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## Akasa

yesboss said:


> Now if the china has it's own engines, radar & avionics and other subsystems plus its own air-frame materials and structural changes such as with this nose cone, how much can Russia still claim it to be its product and stop china from selling it to an ally . . . .. let's say such as Pakistan, which is not even a market for Russian jets and does not hurt them if china sells to Pakistan as they are not even in competition.



Because the fuselage lineage is Russian.


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## cnleio

Deino said:


> It's like Christmas already !!!
> 
> View attachment 271161
> View attachment 271162


J-11D has a J-10B's AESA 'nose' ...


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## Akasa

PLAAF J-11BS

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## cnleio

SinoSoldier said:


> The radars aboard J-11D and J-10B were allegedly developed by the same institute: NRIET.


Yes both from xxxx institute ... it seems China plan to accept domestic AESA as standard radar for all new fighters.
Good news for PLAAF !


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## Beast

Slanted cone means AESA. Therefore only J-10B/C and this J-11D besides the J-20 has AESE radar. Even the J-15 and J-16 is still using mechanical slot doppler pulse radar.


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## Akasa

Beast said:


> Slanted cone means AESA. Therefore only J-10B/C and this J-11D besides the J-20 has AESE radar. Even the J-15 and J-16 is still using mechanical slot doppler pulse radar.



Not really; different models have different configurations.

J-20/J-10B/J-11D have radars from NRIET, while J-16/J-15 use radars from 607th Institute.

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## 帅的一匹

yesboss said:


> Now if the china has it's own engines, radar & avionics and other subsystems plus its own air-frame materials and structural changes such as with this nose cone, how much can Russia still claim it to be its product and stop china from selling it to an ally . . . .. let's say such as Pakistan, which is not even a market for Russian jets and does not hurt them if china sells to Pakistan as they are not even in competition.


It's not Su27 anymore, shall be sold to PAF if they need. it can do air refueling, which means it has more range.

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## cirr

Said to be J-16‘s cockpit display






Containing lots of info for those who read Chinese

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## Akasa

cirr said:


> Said to be J-16‘s cockpit display
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Containing lots of info for those who read Chinese



Do you know when the catapult-capable jet, J-15B, will debut?


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## Deino

It's indeed Christmas time already ... look the IFR-probe, the TH ....

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## cirr

Deino said:


> It's indeed Christmas time already ... look the IFR-probe, the TH ....
> 
> View attachment 271568
> View attachment 271569



and one batch-produced J-16


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## Deino

cirr said:


> and one batch-produced J-16




You men the one standing behind ??

Interesting, the wing-tip pylons suggest indeed this to be a J-16, however the light-grey colour hints this to be for the PLANAF ... so besides the 3. Division, a second operational unit ??


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## cnleio

J-11D, WS-10A, AESA

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## Deino

By the way I've just read a report / rumour that the EW-version of the J-16 has made its maiden flight today. Can anyone confirm ?

Deino


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## Brainsucker

cirr said:


> Said to be J-16‘s cockpit display
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Containing lots of info for those who read Chinese



I can't see the photo. Can you repost it again CIRR, in different place?


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## cirr

Deino said:


> By the way I've just read a report / rumour that the EW-version of the J-16 has made its maiden flight today. Can anyone confirm ?
> 
> Deino



Yes. The “EA-16G Growler” made its maiden flight yesterday（18.12.2015）。

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## Akasa

cirr said:


> Yes. The “EA-16G Growler” made its maiden flight yesterday（18.12.2015）。



Pics, or it didn't happen.


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## cirr

SinoSoldier said:


> Pics, or it didn't happen.



Minus 15 degree Celsius there。 Freezing。 Frozen to death。。。

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## Deino

But does -15° C stop a camera from working ??? ... or was the flight cancelled due to the cold ? ... or was the photographer frozen ?


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## cirr

Deino said:


> But does -15° C stop a camera from working ??? ... or was the flight cancelled due to the cold ? ... or was the photographer frozen ?

























Notice the different radar dome（different from what J-16 and J-11D have）。New AESA radar with active electronic warfare capability。



SinoSoldier said:


> Pics, or it didn't happen.



Video：

歼-16电子战机首飞 助空军独立完成纵深攻击-20151220军迷前线-凤凰视频-最具媒体品质的综合视频门户-凤凰网

“EA-15G” shouldn't be far off either。

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## Akasa

cirr said:


> “EA-15G” shouldn't be far off either。



When will the J-15S hit production anyways, and in what numbers?


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## cirr

SinoSoldier said:


> When will the J-15S hit production anyways, and in what numbers?



“EA-15G” based on J-15S should hit the street in 2016.

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## Akasa

cirr said:


> “EA-15G” based on J-15S should hit the street in 2016.



What about regular J-15S? How many will be produced, and will they have the same avionics and subsystems as the J-16?


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## Deino

Interesting ... there are a few more changes to the standard striker like the missing gun/cannon, a shorter radome, several dielectric / EW aerials ....

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## cirr

Deino said:


> Interesting ... there are a few more changes to the standard striker like the missing gun/cannon, a shorter radome, several dielectric / EW aerials ....
> 
> View attachment 281005



The IRST is gone too。

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## Deino

cirr said:


> The IRST is gone too。




Are You sure ? Since the image is a bit of a different angle and quite blurred it could simply be hidden ?


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## Deino

You are correct ... here are two more images !

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## j20blackdragon

J-16D

The latest images (December 2015) suggested that an EW Wild Weasel variant of J-16 (J-16D?) in the same class of American EA-18G flew for the first time on December 18, 2015 at SAC. The aircraft features a pair of large wingtip ESM/ELINT pods similar to the AN/ALQ-218 tactical jamming receiver onboard EA-18G. It also has multiple antennas mounted on its fuselage including one on the side of engine intake, one behind the cockpit, one underneath the cockpit plus a rectangular dielectric panel behind the radome. A shorter radome on the nose suggests it might be equipped with a new AESA radar with integrated EW capabilities similar to AN/APG-79. As a dedicated EW aircraft, J-16D can fly fast and maneuverably enough to escort the fighter/fighter bomber formation and clear the pathway for the air strike with YJ-91 as well as the new generation of ARMs (e.g. LD-10, CM-102). However, its windshield IRST/LR system and the starboard 30mm gun for dogfight appear to have been removed to create room for extra electronics. As the result J-16D might rely solely on AAMs for self-defence.














Chinese Military Aviation: Attack Aircraft I

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## 帅的一匹

j20blackdragon said:


> J-16D
> 
> The latest images (December 2015) suggested that an EW Wild Weasel variant of J-16 (J-16D?) in the same class of American EA-18G flew for the first time on December 18, 2015 at SAC. The aircraft features a pair of large wingtip ESM/ELINT pods similar to the AN/ALQ-218 tactical jamming receiver onboard EA-18G. It also has multiple antennas mounted on its fuselage including one on the side of engine intake, one behind the cockpit, one underneath the cockpit plus a rectangular dielectric panel behind the radome. A shorter radome on the nose suggests it might be equipped with a new AESA radar with integrated EW capabilities similar to AN/APG-79. As a dedicated EW aircraft, J-16D can fly fast and maneuverably enough to escort the fighter/fighter bomber formation and clear the pathway for the air strike with YJ-91 as well as the new generation of ARMs (e.g. LD-10, CM-102). However, its windshield IRST/LR system and the starboard 30mm gun for dogfight appear to have been removed to create room for extra electronics. As the result J-16D might rely solely on AAMs for self-defence.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chinese Military Aviation: Attack Aircraft I


It can fire laser gun, you might be surprised.

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## chengdusudise

I‘m reallly proud that the EW equipments of J16D are come from the company which i work for.
SWIEE(Southwest China Research Institute of Electronic Equipment ),
i.e,No.29 institute of CETC，located in Chengdu city
The prime EW equipments provider of PLAAF\PLA army

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## Sanchez

chengdusudise said:


> I‘m reallly proud that the EW equipments of J16D are come from the company which i work for.
> SWIEE(Southwest China Research Institute of Electronic Equipment ),
> i.e,No.29 institute of CETC，located in Chengdu city
> The prime EW equipments provider of PLAAF\PLA army



Isn't this supposed to be classified infomation?

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## chengdusudise

Sanchez said:


> Isn't this supposed to be classified infomation?


what?do you think american are so stupid?
our company are in the blacklist of USA goverment
there are so many taiwan and american spies peep on us

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## cirr

chengdusudise said:


> I‘m reallly proud that the EW equipments of J16D are come from the company which i work for.
> SWIEE(Southwest China Research Institute of Electronic Equipment ),
> i.e,No.29 institute of CETC，located in Chengdu city
> The prime EW equipments provider of PLAAF\PLA army



Make sure that the computer you use to go online doesn't contain any sensitive info.

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## qwerrty



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## Zarvan

A new electronic warfare variant of the SAC J-16 reportedly first flew on 18 December 2015. Source: Via Chinese Internet
A possible new electronic warfare (EW) variant of the Shenyang Aircraft Corporation (SAC) J-16 twin-seat strike fighter made its first flight on 18 December, according to Chinese sources, potentially adding a significant offensive capability to the People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF).

Images of the new variant have emerged on several Chinese military web pages, including a 21 December 2015 video report on the popular Ifeng web page. The most salient modifications are two new wingtip pods similar to the Northrop Grumman AN/ALQ-218 Tactical Jamming Receiver, leading to comparisons with the E/A-18G Growler electronic attack variant of Boeing's Super Hornet.

This possible J-16 EW prototype appears to lack the usual fuselage-mounted gun and the infrared search and tracking system (IRST) also appears to be missing, but the J-16, which resembles the Russian Sukhoi Su-30, would have up to 10 wing and fuselage hardpoints for ordnance and active jamming pods.




A close-up of the new electronic warfare pod on the wingtips of the SAC J-16 shows a similarity to the Northrop Grumman AN/ALQ-218 Tactical Jamming Receiver. (Via Ifeng web page)

The PLA is known to have developed three tactical electronic warfare pods. The first, similar in size to the EDO Corporation AN/ALQ-99, may come in receiver and transmitter versions and was first seen on Xian Aircraft Corporation JH-7 strike fighters in 2007. A smaller KG600 pod also equips JH-7s, while the KG300 appears to be an export variant.

An EW version of the J-16 equipped similarly to the E/A-18G would give PLAAF strike packages a far greater chance of reaching their targets and avoiding increasingly capable air defences.

Development of a J-16 EW variant could also lead to a similar carrier warfare version of the twin-seat J-15S.

Chinese commentators note that, just as the Growler enables US air forces, an active jamming version of the J-16 would allow the PLAAF to decrease its dependence on large and vulnerable electronic support aircraft based on the Shaanxi Y-8 airframe.

While in early 2014 an Asian government source estimated that 100 J-16s would be in PLA service by 2020, the emergence of an EW version could increase that number.

*Want to read more? For analysis on this article and access to all our insight content, please enquire about our subscription options ihs.com/contact*




(348 words)

Possible J-16 EW variant makes its first flight | IHS Jane's 360

@MastanKhan @Khafee

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## Inception-06

Zarvan said:


> A new electronic warfare variant of the SAC J-16 reportedly first flew on 18 December 2015. Source: Via Chinese Internet
> A possible new electronic warfare (EW) variant of the Shenyang Aircraft Corporation (SAC) J-16 twin-seat strike fighter made its first flight on 18 December, according to Chinese sources, potentially adding a significant offensive capability to the People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF).
> 
> Images of the new variant have emerged on several Chinese military web pages, including a 21 December 2015 video report on the popular Ifeng web page. The most salient modifications are two new wingtip pods similar to the Northrop Grumman AN/ALQ-218 Tactical Jamming Receiver, leading to comparisons with the E/A-18G Growler electronic attack variant of Boeing's Super Hornet.
> 
> This possible J-16 EW prototype appears to lack the usual fuselage-mounted gun and the infrared search and tracking system (IRST) also appears to be missing, but the J-16, which resembles the Russian Sukhoi Su-30, would have up to 10 wing and fuselage hardpoints for ordnance and active jamming pods.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A close-up of the new electronic warfare pod on the wingtips of the SAC J-16 shows a similarity to the Northrop Grumman AN/ALQ-218 Tactical Jamming Receiver. (Via Ifeng web page)
> 
> The PLA is known to have developed three tactical electronic warfare pods. The first, similar in size to the EDO Corporation AN/ALQ-99, may come in receiver and transmitter versions and was first seen on Xian Aircraft Corporation JH-7 strike fighters in 2007. A smaller KG600 pod also equips JH-7s, while the KG300 appears to be an export variant.
> 
> An EW version of the J-16 equipped similarly to the E/A-18G would give PLAAF strike packages a far greater chance of reaching their targets and avoiding increasingly capable air defences.
> 
> Development of a J-16 EW variant could also lead to a similar carrier warfare version of the twin-seat J-15S.
> 
> Chinese commentators note that, just as the Growler enables US air forces, an active jamming version of the J-16 would allow the PLAAF to decrease its dependence on large and vulnerable electronic support aircraft based on the Shaanxi Y-8 airframe.
> 
> While in early 2014 an Asian government source estimated that 100 J-16s would be in PLA service by 2020, the emergence of an EW version could increase that number.
> 
> *Want to read more? For analysis on this article and access to all our insight content, please enquire about our subscription options ihs.com/contact*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (348 words)
> 
> Possible J-16 EW variant makes its first flight | IHS Jane's 360


 

@Zarvan can you please collect and select important information about all the SU-27 Variants which are made in China (please with Pictures of all varaints) and explain us what are their differences in the variants and their role in the Chinese air force (also the numbers which are in Service ...and where the squadrons are stationed, if it is possible show that by a map ) ? That would be a very interesting topic to write for you and to read for all the PDF members !


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## Zarvan

Ulla said:


> @Zarvan can you please collect and select important information about all the SU-27 Variants which are made in China (please with Pictures of all varaints) and explain us what are their differences in the variants and their role in the Chinese air force (also the numbers which are in Service ...and where the squadrons are stationed, if ist possible show that by a map ) ? That would be a very interesting topic to write for you and to read for all the PDF members !


I will try but a thread is already running by the name of J-11 Family

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## Inception-06

Zarvan said:


> I will try but a thread is already running by the name of J-11 Family


 

A selam,

Good morning !

Would you please Name the topic or link for me ? thx a lot


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## Akasa

Ulla said:


> @Zarvan can you please collect and select important information about all the SU-27 Variants which are made in China (please with Pictures of all varaints) and explain us what are their differences in the variants and their role in the Chinese air force (also the numbers which are in Service ...and where the squadrons are stationed, if ist possible show that by a map ) ? That would be a very interesting topic to write for you and to read for all the PDF members !



Family tree:

J-11A
*J-11B*
J-11BS
J-11BH
J-11BSH
*J-15*
J-15S

*J-16*
J-16D

*J-11D*

The J-15 and J-16 can technically be considered a class of their own, but they all extend from the J-11B lineage.

Which specific variant are you referring to?

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## Inception-06

SinoSoldier said:


> Family tree:
> 
> J-11A
> *J-11B*
> J-11BS
> J-11BH
> J-11BSH
> *J-15*
> J-15S
> 
> *J-16*
> J-16D
> 
> *J-11D*
> 
> The J-15 and J-16 can technically be considered a class of their own, but they all extend from the J-11B lineage.
> 
> Which specific variant are you referring to?


 
To All my friend, I want now why China has made so many different variants and whats their exact role related to their Mission area !


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## Zarvan

SinoSoldier said:


> Family tree:
> 
> J-11A
> *J-11B*
> J-11BS
> J-11BH
> J-11BSH
> *J-15*
> J-15S
> 
> *J-16*
> J-16D
> 
> *J-11D*
> 
> The J-15 and J-16 can technically be considered a class of their own, but they all extend from the J-11B lineage.
> 
> Which specific variant are you referring to?


Some people suggest as J series are copy of Russian Planes therefore China can't sell them to other countries


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## terranMarine

Ulla said:


> To All my friend, I want now why China has made so many different variants and whats their exact role related to their Mission area !



Types of variants explained here Shenyang J-11 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Now we also have the J-16 EW

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## Akasa

Zarvan said:


> Some people suggest as J series are copy of Russian Planes therefore China can't sell them to other countries



The J-11X series use a Russian-derived airframe, but all of the subsystems and weapons used aboard these aircraft are completely Chinese-developed and unique to the variant (except for the J-11A). That is one of the reasons why the Chinese continue to develop and produce them.

The Chinese are probably not legally-bound from selling them, but they've agreed to refrain from exporting the J-11X in order to maintain cordiality with Moscow.



Ulla said:


> To All my friend, I want now why China has made so many different variants and whats their exact role related to their Mission area !



J-11B: air superiority
J-15: carrier-based multirole fighter
J-16: strike fighter
J-11D: air superiority



terranMarine said:


> Types of variants explained here Shenyang J-11 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Now we also have the J-16 EW



Wikipedia is the last source you would want to use.

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## IrbiS



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## Inception-06

SinoSoldier said:


> The J-11X series use a Russian-derived airframe, but all of the subsystems and weapons used aboard these aircraft are completely Chinese-developed and unique to the variant (except for the J-11A). That is one of the reasons why the Chinese continue to develop and produce them.
> 
> The Chinese are probably not legally-bound from selling them, but they've agreed to refrain from exporting the J-11X in order to maintain cordiality with Moscow.
> 
> 
> 
> J-11B: air superiority
> J-15: carrier-based multirole fighter
> J-16: strike fighter
> J-11D: air superiority
> 
> 
> 
> Wikipedia is the last source you would want to use.


 

can you please recommend a good source? (globalsecurity.com ?)


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## Khafee

Zarvan said:


> A new electronic warfare variant of the SAC J-16 reportedly first flew on 18 December 2015. Source: Via Chinese Internet
> A possible new electronic warfare (EW) variant of the Shenyang Aircraft Corporation (SAC) J-16 twin-seat strike fighter made its first flight on 18 December, according to Chinese sources, potentially adding a significant offensive capability to the People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF).
> 
> Images of the new variant have emerged on several Chinese military web pages, including a 21 December 2015 video report on the popular Ifeng web page. The most salient modifications are two new wingtip pods similar to the Northrop Grumman AN/ALQ-218 Tactical Jamming Receiver, leading to comparisons with the E/A-18G Growler electronic attack variant of Boeing's Super Hornet.
> 
> This possible J-16 EW prototype appears to lack the usual fuselage-mounted gun and the infrared search and tracking system (IRST) also appears to be missing, but the J-16, which resembles the Russian Sukhoi Su-30, would have up to 10 wing and fuselage hardpoints for ordnance and active jamming pods.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A close-up of the new electronic warfare pod on the wingtips of the SAC J-16 shows a similarity to the Northrop Grumman AN/ALQ-218 Tactical Jamming Receiver. (Via Ifeng web page)
> 
> The PLA is known to have developed three tactical electronic warfare pods. The first, similar in size to the EDO Corporation AN/ALQ-99, may come in receiver and transmitter versions and was first seen on Xian Aircraft Corporation JH-7 strike fighters in 2007. A smaller KG600 pod also equips JH-7s, while the KG300 appears to be an export variant.
> 
> An EW version of the J-16 equipped similarly to the E/A-18G would give PLAAF strike packages a far greater chance of reaching their targets and avoiding increasingly capable air defences.
> 
> Development of a J-16 EW variant could also lead to a similar carrier warfare version of the twin-seat J-15S.
> 
> Chinese commentators note that, just as the Growler enables US air forces, an active jamming version of the J-16 would allow the PLAAF to decrease its dependence on large and vulnerable electronic support aircraft based on the Shaanxi Y-8 airframe.
> 
> While in early 2014 an Asian government source estimated that 100 J-16s would be in PLA service by 2020, the emergence of an EW version could increase that number.
> 
> *Want to read more? For analysis on this article and access to all our insight content, please enquire about our subscription options ihs.com/contact*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (348 words)
> 
> Possible J-16 EW variant makes its first flight | IHS Jane's 360
> 
> @MastanKhan @Khafee


Northrop Grumman AN/ALQ-218 Tactical Jamming Receiver


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## cirr

China Builds Its Own 'Wild Weasel' To Suppress Air Defenses | Popular Science

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## Blue Marlin



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## Deino

Just found ...

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## BoQ77

“Liberation Army Daily” reported recently that during a joint military exercise between Chinese Air Force and a foreign air force in an overseas place, *Chinese pilots were very confused that China’s aircrafts were always one minute slower than foreign aircrafts in taking off, as the runway is the same and the aircrafts have similar performance.*

China and Thailand just held a joint air exercise at a Thai air base from November 12th to 30th. China sent J-11 fighters and Thailand used its latest version of JAS-39C/D Gripen fighters.


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## asia2000

BoQ77 said:


> “Liberation Army Daily” reported recently that during a joint military exercise between Chinese Air Force and a foreign air force in an overseas place, *Chinese pilots were very confused that China’s aircrafts were always one minute slower than foreign aircrafts in taking off, as the runway is the same and the aircrafts have similar performance.*
> 
> China and Thailand just held a joint air exercise at a Thai air base from November 12th to 30th. China sent J-11 fighters and Thailand used its latest version of JAS-39C/D Gripen fighters.



So J-11 is slower than a commercial aircraft in taking off? I have taken so many flights and none of them took more than 50 seconds to be airborne.

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## BoQ77

asia2000 said:


> So J-11 is slower than a commercial aircraft in taking off? I have taken so many flights and none of them took more than 50 seconds to be airborne.



It depends on payload.
As we know, a F-16B Blk 15 of PAF ( maybe clean ) takes only 45 sec. to take off and reach 15,000FT.


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## Beast

BoQ77 said:


> “Liberation Army Daily” reported recently that during a joint military exercise between Chinese Air Force and a foreign air force in an overseas place, *Chinese pilots were very confused that China’s aircrafts were always one minute slower than foreign aircrafts in taking off, as the runway is the same and the aircrafts have similar performance.*
> 
> China and Thailand just held a joint air exercise at a Thai air base from November 12th to 30th. China sent J-11 fighters and Thailand used its latest version of JAS-39C/D Gripen fighters.


You make all these up, isn't it?

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## BoQ77

no ! "Liberation Army Daily"


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## Deino

Nice J-16-image ...

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## 帅的一匹

Deino said:


> Nice J-16-image ...
> 
> View attachment 291120


What a beast in the making. The most advanced multi role heavy platform in PLAAF.


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## DANGER-ZONE

Why there are two different types of IRST on ?
One is with clear glass sphere and other two are with metallic shine.

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## TaimiKhan

DANGER-ZONE said:


> Why there are two different types of IRST on ?
> One is with clear glass sphere and other two are with metallic shine.



Seems the IRST is covered. When they aren't required, cover is put to protect the lens or the IRST is not yet installed on these 2.


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## asia2000

Deino said:


> Nice J-16-image ...
> 
> View attachment 291120


J16 MFD


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## Deino

Another J-16 ...

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

What is the advantage to have the vertical tail tilt with an angle and not vertical such as this plane?? such stealthy, mechanic or aerodynamic advantage???? this conceptual J15xxx looks pretty cool I must say.


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## Akasa

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> What is the advantage to have the vertical tail tilt with an angle and not vertical such as this plane?? such stealthy, mechanic or aerodynamic advantage???? this conceptual J15xxx looks pretty cool I must say.



Not sure about the mechanics behind it, but it is to optimize the RCS.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

SinoSoldier said:


> Not sure about the mechanics behind it, but it is to optimize the RCS.



But is there any aerodynamic penalty by doing so? Imagine when we got SU-35 thrust vectoring engine, combine the latest technology of J-11D and tilted tails for RCS, we can make the latest crazy J-15xxx as semi-stealth fighter...LMAO


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## gambit

Optimize the RCS ?

Guys, I explained it very clear many moons ago on why 'stealth' fighters *MUST* have twin canted vertical stabs. Surely you can do better than the generic 'optimize the RCS'.


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## Deino

An operational J-16 at night

Any info on what unit ?? .. there's something they are telling about "78" ... but I do not understand !??

大漠神剑之石榴和女棍 - 空军论坛 - 鼎盛论坛 -

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## cirr

J-16 78XXX。

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## Deino

cirr said:


> J-16 78XXX。



so, the serial starts with 78xxx ?? ... so most likely the 172nd Air Brigade FTTC at Cangzhou-Cangxian, which also has the Su-30MKK !

So then the J-10B is most likely from the 170 Brigade FTTC ...


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## Tiqiu

WS10A.

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## Deino

Nice ... and now compare this inner structure with the J-20's exhaust ! ... nothing more to say.


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## Tiqiu

Deino said:


> Nice ... and now compare this inner structure with the J-20's exhaust ! ... nothing more to say.


HaHaHa, you won.


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## S. Martin

Tiqiu said:


> WS10A.



Ha! This bird has a right height that the PLA maintainer can stand repairing the engine! It goes to a tragedy if the fuselarge is more higher or lower...

I find no information about J11C, why it jumps from J11B to J11D? I remember someone ever asked the same question, but cannot find the answer. Thanks.


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## Deino

The J-11C became the J-15 !

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## mingle

Pak should look into this plane would be relatively cheap and nice addition for our Navy


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## Viper0011.

SBD-3 said:


> F-22 is a stealth plane and its rumored RCS is *0.10 to 0.01* far far below Flanker's. No wonder it took almost 2 decades for even US to develop such a fighter



You are right. There is a "Stealth" button inside the cockpit of the -22. When you press it, the plane flying infront of a naked eye disappears. That's how stealthy it is. I don't know anyone else who could even get to this level . All joking aside. The reality is, if I tossed two Dimes way up in the air with very sophisticated radars monitoring active and in passive configuration, and there was a -22 flying a few hundred meters away from my two coins up in the air at the same time, on the radar screen, the cross section will be the same for all three (two Dimes and a -22!!!!). So really, instead of seeing a plane's cross section, the radar would show a cross section of three coins back on the monitor. Who's going to beat that ? The -22, IMO, should be the 9th or the 13th wonder of the world (whichever number is applicable in 2016).


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## SBD-3

Viper0011. said:


> You are right. There is a "Stealth" button inside the cockpit of the -22. When you press it, the plane flying infront of a naked eye disappears. That's how stealthy it is. I don't know anyone else who could even get to this level . All joking aside. The reality is, if I tossed two Dimes way up in the air with very sophisticated radars monitoring active and in passive configuration, and there was a -22 flying a few hundred meters away from my two coins up in the air at the same time, on the radar screen, the cross section will be the same for all three (two Dimes and a -22!!!!). So really, instead of seeing a plane's cross section, the radar would show a cross section of three coins back on the monitor. Who's going to beat that ? The -22, IMO, should be the 9th or the 13th wonder of the world (whichever number is applicable in 2016).


You dug up quite an old post.


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## Akasa

Update: the J-11D might be powered by a *thrust-vectored* variant of the *WS-10B* engine, with *145 kN* of thrust, in the future.

The engine has completed ground tests and is currently undergoing flight evaluations aboard a testbed.


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## BoQ77

SinoSoldier said:


> Update: the J-11D might be powered by a *thrust-vectored* variant of the *WS-10B* engine, with *145 kN* of thrust, in the future.
> 
> The engine has completed ground tests and is currently undergoing flight evaluations aboard a testbed.



Oh great !!! 
But why not J-20 would be powered by a thrust-vectored variant of ... ?


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## gambit

Viper0011. said:


> You are right. There is a "Stealth" button inside the cockpit of the -22. When you press it, the plane flying infront of a naked eye disappears. That's how stealthy it is. I don't know anyone else who could even get to this level . *All joking aside.*


Not a joke. I have seen that button myself. When I pressed it, the entire jet became invisible and it looked like I was standing in mid air.

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## Deino

SinoSoldier said:


> Update: the J-11D might be powered by a *thrust-vectored* variant of the *WS-10B* engine, with *145 kN* of thrust, in the future.
> 
> The engine has completed ground tests and is currently undergoing flight evaluations aboard a testbed.




Ohhh, I would love to see that bird !

Any info on this "testbed" ?? ... if it is a J-11B-testbed or in fact already a J-11D prototype ?? Or still the Il-76LL ?


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## Viper0011.

gambit said:


> Not a joke. I have seen that button myself. When I pressed it, the entire jet became invisible and it looked like I was standing in mid air.



The B2 and the X-xx have it too . Its the "Mirage button". The "skin" adopts to your surroundings and the air......I am trying to get my sports Benz to do the same. But I kind of don't have the money like Lockheed does, so I am about 4 decades behind on R&D


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## j20blackdragon



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## JSCh

Pilots of Chinese J-11 fighter jets of a naval aviation regiment conduct training in the South China Sea recently to temper their combat capability. (Mod.gov/Photo)

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## cirr

New production of J-15 now flying with Taihang engines。

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## Akasa

cirr said:


> New production of J-15 now flying with Taihang engines。



Are these J-15B variants, equipped with AESA?


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## lcloo

From CJDBY, Pupu wrote that J-16 would be in large scale mass production from this year onwards.

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## Deino

Via: https://www.facebook.com/sharer/sha...715029247/&display=popup&ref=plugin&src=video

... exactly as I expected for a Golden Helmet winning team: they also now have a new unit insignia !!

Deino

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## TaimiKhan

Deino said:


> Via: https://www.facebook.com/sharer/sharer.php?u=https://www.facebook.com/*****************/videos/884162715029247/&display=popup&ref=plugin&src=video
> 
> ... exactly as I expected for a Golden Helmet winning team: they also now have a new unit insignia !!
> 
> Deino
> 
> View attachment 302719



Is the pic taken from a PAF Mirage ?


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## Deino

Deino said:


> Via: https://www.facebook.com/sharer/sharer.php?u=https://www.facebook.com/*****************/videos/884162715029247/&display=popup&ref=plugin&src=video
> 
> ... exactly as I expected for a Golden Helmet winning team: they also now have a new unit insignia !!
> 
> Deino
> 
> View attachment 302719




Hu ... it's from the 18. Division but anyway interesting:

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## HRK

TaimiKhan said:


> Is the pic taken from a PAF Mirage ?



yaap .... SHAHEEN-V EXERCISE 

https://defence.pk/threads/exclusive-video-of-shaheen-v-from-mirage-cockpit.428526/

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## 果壳军事

lcloo said:


> From CJDBY, Pupu wrote that J-16 would be in large scale mass production from this year onwards.



J-16s are sure to serve in both PLAAF and PLAN.

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## grey boy 2

Some awesome pics of J-11B with domestic engines(WS-10)

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## grey boy 2

Some more J-11B with domestic engine (WS-10 series)

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## Deino

@grey boy 2 

These are indeed nice ... but all quite old and I'm sure already posted here.

This however is a new one ...

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## grey boy 2



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## Tiqiu

Has this one with WS10 been posted before?





According to today's China state media news, till now since its mass production and official deployment, there are more than 400 WS10 being delivered to the air force, and none of the J11B, J11D and J16 equipped with WS10 has crashed due to the engine faulty problem



*“太行”发动机已批量装备部队*
截至2015年底，410厂已向海军、空军交付涡扇10发动机不少于400余台，被用于J11B、J11D、J16等机型，装备了不少于5个航空团。虽然经历了磕磕碰碰，但截至目前，没有一架搭载涡扇10发动机的战机因发动机故障坠毁。
http://www.guancha.cn/Science/2016_07_06_366554_s.shtml

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

I'm wondering if J-11 can be changed to have DSI at the intake as J-10B, not only it will eliminate the intake door but make it more stealthy as well

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## siegecrossbow

New image of J-11D.

http://lt.cjdby.net/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=2261966&extra=page=1&page=3

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

siegecrossbow said:


> New image of J-11D.
> 
> http://lt.cjdby.net/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=2261966&extra=page=1&page=3
> 
> View attachment 318940



Make an DSI intake and tilt the V-tail with some angles then this bird will be an angel for me

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## grey boy 2

Newest J-11BS with (FWS10B-2)?











The older J-11B with FWS10A-2




source:CJDBY* 最新海航J11BS图片，疑 装全新14吨推力级FWS10B-2发动机*

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## Mangus Ortus Novem

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> Make an DSI intake and tilt the V-tail with some angles then this bird will be an angel for me



With minor changes to the airframe...to make it more angular and internal weapons bay in between the engines... we will have a reduced RCS and a semi stealth heavy fighter. Even for the sake of study and experiement..SAC must build a couple of them...there won't be must cost in this safe experiement.

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## Deino

The 7. Div. has received J-11Bs replacing their current A models . 
Are they fresj from SAC or from another unit?

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## grey boy 2

J-16














New image of J-11B

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## chisty_chowdhury

*J-11D Fighter jet With Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) Radar*
*



*
*



*

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## Deino

Sorry to ask, but why do You repost this image ??? It was already posted on 11. November last year !


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## grey boy 2

Some nice close up pictures of J-11BS with domestic "Taihang" engines

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## grey boy 2



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## 艹艹艹



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## Deino

*Why do You always start a new thread if an already existing one fits exactly this topic ???*

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## fitpOsitive

long_ said:


> View attachment 330931
> View attachment 330930
> View attachment 330919
> View attachment 330921
> View attachment 330922
> View attachment 330923
> View attachment 330925


Niceeeeee

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## Inception-06

Deino said:


> The 7. Div. has received J-11Bs replacing their current A models .
> Are they fresj from SAC or from another unit?
> 
> View attachment 322742



And what will happen withe A models ?


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## Deino

Ulla said:


> And what will happen withe A models ?




Good question ... most likely they will be reassigned to other units or - as in case with the latest J-10A to B conversions - a new regiment will convert to the older airframes. However I'm not sure.

Maybe it depends also on how much airframe-live these older models still have, if they will - or even can - be modernised thru an MLU to maybe the J-11D ??? I don't know.

Anyone else with more insight here ? 

Deino

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## siegecrossbow

Deino said:


> Good question ... most likely they will be reassigned to other units or - as in case with the latest J-10A to B conversions - a new regiment will convert to the older airframes. However I'm not sure.
> 
> Maybe it depends also on how much airframe-live these older models still have, if they will - or even can - be modernised thru an MLU to maybe the J-11D ??? I don't know.
> 
> Anyone else with more insight here ?
> 
> Deino



The shape of the radar dome is different on J-10A. Would it cause problems if they tried to directly transplant the AESA radar from J-10C to J-10A.


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## gambit

siegecrossbow said:


> The shape of the radar dome is different on J-10A. Would it cause problems if they tried to directly transplant the AESA radar from J-10C to J-10A.


It depends on what kind of problems are you asking about.

An AESA antenna is non-moving, so that should rule out any clearance issues. As long as internal volume is sufficient, fitment will be fine.

Mathematically speaking, it is possible to reconfigure the beam shaping to the radome's dimensions, also in mathematical terms, to compensate for any inevitable deviations. But generally speaking, real world testing must be done and that mean putting the new radome under comprehensive testing before making the actual upgrade.

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## Deino

siegecrossbow said:


> The shape of the radar dome is different on J-10A. Would it cause problems if they tried to directly transplant the AESA radar from J-10C to J-10A.




I do not fully understand the relationship to J-1A to C here but overall I think - at least wanted to say - that an MLU for these older J-11As could be an option. 
If this is then a J-11B-equivalent or a much deeper modrnisation to maybe even J-11D I don't know .... ?

Besides this: any news on the J-11D behind ? Will it be introduced into PLAAF service?...and if YES, will these new-build models or is the D an MLU-package for older versions?

Deino

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## cirr

Deino said:


> I do not fully understand the relationship to J-1A to C here but overall I think - at least wanted to say - that an MLU for these older J-11As could be an option.
> If this is then a J-11B-equivalent or a much deeper modrnisation to maybe even J-11D I don't know .... ?
> 
> Besides this: any news on the J-11D behind ? Will it be introduced into PLAAF service?...and if YES, will these new-build models or is the D an MLU-package for older versions?
> 
> Deino



So far three prototypes being put through test flights

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## Deino

cirr said:


> So far three prototypes being put through test flights




So that means no final decission by now?


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## grey boy 2

J-11B with domestic Taihang engine 歼11B装配的太行发动机

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## grey boy 2



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## Beast

grey boy 2 said:


>



Is this the J-11B from the latest PLAAF open house? The new Taihang seems to rid of the inner ring. Same inner appearance like AL-31 engine.


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## Deino

Beast said:


> Is this the J-11B from the latest PLAAF open house? The new Taihang seems to rid of the inner ring. Same inner appearance like AL-31 engine.




Hmmm, IMO exactly the same as before ...





... and here an older one:

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## Beast

Deino said:


> Hmmm, IMO exactly the same as before ...
> View attachment 332516
> 
> 
> ... and here an older one:
> View attachment 332517
> 
> View attachment 332519


Quoting an old photo doesn't help. Latest taihang engine has rid of the inner ring as show in the latest photo of J-11B. They are borrowing some design from AL-31. So showing some old photo is irrelevant to prove any point.

Old WS-10 engine inner ring is very obvious and can be spotted in many angles even with after burner. But new taihang engine is different.

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## Deino

Beast said:


> Quoting an old photo doesn't help. Latest taihang engine has rid of the inner ring as show in the latest photo of J-11B. They are borrowing some design from AL-31. So showing some old photo is irrelevant to prove any point.
> 
> Old WS-10 engine inner ring is very obvious and can be spotted in many angles even with after burner. But new taihang engine is different.




Why does quoting old images in comparison to new ones not help ??
You said the new ones are different and I posted new ones from the latest display in comparison to older images and at least IMO they are the same. So where is this so much visible difference that is not visible in a comparison ?

Even more, why should they add certain features of the AL-31 in the latest WS-10-versions if 1. the WS-10 is so much superior and the AL-31 older and dated ? It does not make sense ...

Or can You please show this missing inner ring?

Thanks in advance,
Deino

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## Beast

Deino said:


> Why does quoting old images in comparison to new ones not help ??
> You said the new ones are different and I posted new ones from the latest display in comparison to older images and at least IMO they are the same. So where is this so much visible difference that is not visible in a comparison ?
> 
> Even more, why should they add certain features of the AL-31 in the latest WS-10-versions if 1. the WS-10 is so much superior and the AL-31 older and dated ? It does not make sense ...
> 
> Or can You please show this missing inner ring?
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> Deino


WS-10B is superior in terms of metallurgy. If the petal can withstand few thousands of high degrees heat and work many thousands hours without break down. It is already a winner as thrust will definitely increase.

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## Deino

Beast said:


> WS-10B is superior in terms of metallurgy. If the petal can withstand few thousands of high degrees heat and work many thousands hours without break down. It is already a winner as thrust will definitely increase.




That was not the question You mentioned the new Taihang got rid of an internal ring or structure (clearly visible from outside) more akin to the AL-31 and not an internal, metallurgical issue.

And even more, why should they incorporate features of the AL-31 ?

Deino

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## Deino

Can anyone explain this post please ... ??

http://www.weibo.com/u/5202991931?r...=feed&loc=nickname&is_all=1#_rnd1473505701326

I just labelled it J-11D even if they are discussing it as J-16s or J-11D s... IMO however it can't be a J-, since the twin seater with the taller tails features a "green" tail, whereas his one clearly has a yellow one found on the fighter-versions.

So are these two J-11Ds maybe?

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## cirr

Deino said:


> Can anyone explain this post please ... ??
> 
> http://www.weibo.com/u/5202991931?r...=feed&loc=nickname&is_all=1#_rnd1473505701326
> 
> I just labelled it J-11D even if they are discussing it as J-16s or J-11D s... IMO however it can't be a J-, since the twin seater with the taller tails features a "green" tail, whereas his one clearly has a yellow one found on the fighter-versions.
> 
> So are these two J-11Ds maybe?
> 
> View attachment 333162



J-16 and J-11D

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## Deino

cirr said:


> J-16 and J-11D




Indeed, the one behind is clearly a twin-seater .... but any info on where they are ?





By the way another interesting item I noted: There's a small formation light on the tail that can be seen on both aircraft #11D1 & #11D2 ... but on the latest aircraft spotted on 19. July it is missing.


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## Deino

Here a bit better ...

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## grey boy 2



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## grey boy 2

J-11BS

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## grey boy 2

J-11BS

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## grey boy 2

J-11BS

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## Deino

Deino said:


> Here a bit better ...
> 
> View attachment 333184




And two more ...

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## grey boy 2

J-11B

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## Deino

grey boy 2 said:


> J-11B




Not only j-11b but finally a clear image showing a B from the 7. Division.

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## Deino

Interesting since this pattern of markings was only seen on early J-11Bs from the 1. Division but with AL-31 .... So either these markings now also on WS-10 powered birds or the batch 1 B models also got the Taihang.

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## grey boy 2

J-11B with PL-12

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## grey boy 2

A lot of J-16 (credit to 星海军事)

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## grey boy 2



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## Deino

Anyone with an idea, why the 111. Brigade Urumqi Base re-converted to the J-11A and replaced their J-11Bs ???

the new birds ...





... and the old one:

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## Deino

Finally an image showing the J-11B's Type 1493 radar ...

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## grey boy 2

New J-16

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## Deino

No ... only not posted here in the Flanker-thread. That particular image was posted on 13. October even if I can't remember where here.


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## Oracle

*J-16 is the Chinese Strike Flanker, class of Su30 MK2*










China demonstrated fighter J16 to the press at aircraft factory Shenyang Aircraft Co; it is a class of Su-30MK2, reports Hong Kong military magazine Kanwa referring to a Chinese authoritative military source. 

This airplane is same class as of Russian fighter Su-30MK2, the batch of them was sold to China early in 2000's, reports Interfax citing the source.

According to the magazine, Chinese Navy is quite satisfied with performance characteristics of Su-30MK2 fighter. Shenyang aircraft factory created that fighter with antiship capabilities adapted for Chinese-made missiles. Basically, the fuselage remained the same as J11BS airplane has, said the source. 

The magazine reports that the first batch of 24 fighters J16 had been already constructed.


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## Deino

*Ohhhh PLAESE ... we have a dedicated PLAAF-Flanker-thread ... so please take care not to start a new thread for each post ! *
*
By the way all of these images have already been posted ! 

Deino*

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## TOPGUN

PAF needs to get it hands on some of these don't understand what they are waiting for.

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## Deino

TOPGUN said:


> PAF needs to get it hands on some of these don't understand what they are waiting for.




Regardless what they - either some fan-boys or any PAF top-brass - would like to get, they will never. China will NEVER risk the good industrial and military cooperation with Russia only to sell a few of their own Flankers to Pakistan.
Even if we surely can discuss on weather the J-11/-15/-16-series are illegal copies since the original contract only allowed the Su-27SK, they will even less likely export any of them.

So, if the PAF wants some Flankers ... go to Russia and ask.

Deino

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## TaimiKhan

Deino said:


> Regardless what they - either some fan-boys or any PAF top-brass - would like to get, they will never. China will NEVER risk the good industrial and military cooperation with Russia only to sell a few of their own Flankers to Pakistan.
> Even if we surely can discuss on weather the J-11/-15/-16-series are illegal copies since the original contract only allowed the Su-27SK, they will even less likely export any of them.
> 
> So, if the PAF wants some Flankers ... go to Russia and ask.
> 
> Deino



Problem is Russia won't allow due to India. Thus we can request Russia to allow behind the scenes sales through China meaning we buy Chinese version. But personally I would like that we go for the Chinese 5th gen fighter program instead of getting this.


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## Hassan Guy

its a nice Su-27 reskin


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## GreenFalcon

*J-11 fighter jets fire rocket launchers*
Source: China Military2016-10-17 17:42:42

01- J-11 fighter jets loaded with live ammunition taxi toward the runway at a military airfield before takeoff during live-fire training on Oct. 13, 2016. The fighter jets were attached to an aviation regiment of the air force under the PLA Southern Theater Command. (81.cn/ Fan Yishu)





02- A J-11 fighter jet fires its rocket launchers at simulated targets during live-fire training on Oct. 13, 2016. The fighter jet was attached to an aviation regiment of the air force under the PLA Southern Theater Command. (81.cn/ Fan Yishu)




03- A J-11 fighter jet fires its rocket launchers at simulated targets during live-fire training on Oct. 13, 2016. The fighter jet was attached to an aviation regiment of the air force under the PLA Southern Theater Command. (81.cn/ Fan Yishu)




http://english.chinamil.com.cn/view/2016-10/17/content_7305380.htm

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## GreenFalcon

I think Pakistan should seriously consider this beauty as an alternative for the SU-35

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## Sliver

what do you mean they fired rocket launchers? they probably launched rockets.


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## Beast

GreenFalcon said:


> I think Pakistan should seriously consider this beauty as an alternative for the SU-35


They are not allow to be exported.

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## GreenFalcon

Beast said:


> They are not allow to be exported.


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## Deino

GreenFalcon said:


> *J-11 fighter jets fire rocket launchers*
> Source: China Military2016-10-17 17:42:42




*@GreenFalcon ... PLease do not open a new thread for simply one - and IMO not really new - news !*
*We have a dedicated Flanker-thread and that's fins. Topics merged !*



GreenFalcon said:


> I think Pakistan should seriously consider this beauty as an alternative for the SU-35



And concerning this so often again and again repeated issue I can only quote myself:

https://defence.pk/threads/the-j-11-flanker-family.355949/page-35#post-8825030

"Regardless what they - either some fan-boys or any PAF top-brass - would like to get, they will never. China will NEVER risk the good industrial and military cooperation with Russia only to sell a few of their own Flankers to Pakistan.
Even if we surely can discuss on weather the J-11/-15/-16-series are illegal copies since the original contract only allowed the Su-27SK, they will even less likely export any of them.

So, if the PAF wants some Flankers ... go to Russia and ask."

Deino

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## Deino

Via @siegecrossbow posted at the SDF:



siegecrossbow said:


> Chinese Olympic Gold Medalist Sun Yang riding a flanker variant (J-11BS???) in a Hunan based reality TV series.
> 
> http://lt.cjdby.net/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=2309673&extra=page=1
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *



Interesting ... but even more interesting IMO, that a few (indeed most) J-11Bs in that line-up have a grey radome similar to the J-15s!!

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## Deino

SU-30MK2 with PL-12 again ...

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## grey boy 2

SU-30 MK2 with Chinese PL-12 missile which may implied that Chinese has already solved the Russian code
A bigger version of Deino's picture

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## Deino

By the way a question concerning the old, original Russia-delivered Su-27SK ... are they still in service or have they been retired by now and replaced by J-11A ??

Deino


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## grey boy 2



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## grey boy 2

#78025 J-11 BS (飞训二团的11BS)

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## grey boy 2

空32师的11B

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## Akasa

This is a fairly significant photo of a J-11B equipped with two Kh-31 or YJ-91 anti-radiation missiles. The significance comes from the fact that, up to this point, there has been no confirmation of the J-11B's ability to carry guided A2G weaponry.

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## Deino

SinoSoldier said:


> This is a fairly significant photo of a J-11B equipped with two Kh-31 or YJ-91 anti-radiation missiles. The significance comes from the fact that, up to this point, there has been no confirmation of the J-11B's ability to carry guided A2G weaponry.
> 
> View attachment 352663




Sorry to correct You, but this is not a J-11B but clearly a Su-30MKK. Just look at the taller tails, the ECM-pods, the larger and more curved back/spine and most of all the twin wheels on the front gear.

However what's that thing in the yellow circle???

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## Akasa

Deino said:


> Sorry to correct You, but this is not a J-11B but clearly a Su-30MKK. Just look at the taller tails, the ECM-pods, the larger and more curved back/spine and most of all the twin wheels on the front gear.
> 
> However what's that thing in the yellow circle???
> 
> View attachment 352670



Good catch; the differences are subtle but present nonetheless! The yellow object is the cap for the parachute emplacement.

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## grey boy 2

J-11BS

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## Tiqiu

J16 #0207

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## Tiqiu

China is testing a new long-range, air-to-air missile that could thwart U.S. plans for air warfare
http://www.popsci.com.au/tech/milit...-could-thwart-us-plans-for-air-warfare,442329
"The missile appears to have four tailfins. Reports are that the size would put into the category of a very long range air to air missile (VLRAAM) with ranges exceeding 300 km (roughly 186 miles), likely max out between 250 and 310 miles. (As a point of comparison, the smaller 13.8-foot, 15-inch-diameter Russian R-37 missile has a 249-mile range)."

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## Deino

Does anyone know this J-16-image in full-size !??


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## grey boy 2

J-16

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## Deino

A new image of the J-11D + a J-16 ... most likely also from September during high altitude testing.

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## grey boy 2

J-16 electronic warfare version flight test (翼尖的战术干扰系统接收机，确实是咆哮石榴)

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## cirr

grey boy 2 said:


> J-16 electronic warfare version flight test (翼尖的战术干扰系统接收机，确实是咆哮石榴)



J-16D

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## grey boy 2

J-11BS "0125" spotted, the 4th batch each with around 30, it should be safe to assume over 100 J-11BS being produced so far
0125号筷子BS，一个批次近30架，现在第四个批次了，BS总数上百了吧

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## Deino

Impressive ... H-6K from the 10. Bomber Division and J-11A from the 2. Fighter Division.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/807920541403213826


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## Arthur

Deino said:


> Impressive ... H-6K from the 10. Bomber Division and J-11A from the 2. Fighter Division.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/807920541403213826
> View attachment 359553


Why does the frontal fuselage of the bomber looks darker than the rear are?


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## grey boy 2

Our Olympic gold medalist in swimming Sun Yang in J-11B (孙杨从座舱出来后感叹，在战机的座舱内体会到了使命和责任)

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## grey boy 2



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## Beast

grey boy 2 said:


> Our Olympic gold medalist in swimming Sun Yang in J-11B (孙杨从座舱出来后感叹，在战机的座舱内体会到了使命和责任)


He take the front seat? Can he pilot the plane?


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## grey boy 2

Beast said:


> He take the front seat? Can he pilot the plane?



Just ground experience inside the J-11B cockpit bro

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## onebyone

http://www.nextbigfuture.com/2016/12/china-mass-producing-fighter-jets.html
Advances in China's jet engine designs have led to the launch of the J-11D, which is a home-grown version of the russian Su-35

China is ready to launch its new J-11D fighter after it failed to acquire Russian engines on schedule and was forced to develop its own technology, military observers said.


The progress included advances in home-grown turbofan technology and radar systems, and showed that Beijing was no longer reliant on Russian engines for its new generation of fighters, analysts said.

After a decade of negotiations, China and Russia inked a deal for 24 Su-35 aircraft last year.

China had hoped the deal would include delivery of an extra 48 117S engines, that it could use in its newer aircraft like the J-20.

But Russian red tape forced China to upgrade the Su-27s it already had and develop its own variant of the Su-35, the J-11D. The J-11D, built by Shenyang Aircraft Corporation, made its maiden flight on April 29 last year.

Some of the most noticeable improvements are in the radar system, the addition of a computer-controlled antenna that can point in different directions without moving, and greater use of composites and stealth coatings in the fuselage to cut weight. The maiden flight also revealed that the J-11D is powered by a WS-10 engine, a turbofan design originally developed by a subsidiary of Chinese aerospace giant Aviation Industry Corporation of China (Avic), SAC’s parent company.

In its annual report in July, Avic said it built more than 400 WS-10 engines last year, suggesting the J-10 and J-11 fighters no longer needed Russian engines.

The J-11D is powered by a new WS-10 variant; the variant reportedly had improved reliability, with a thrust of more than 13 tons, and less than that of the AL-31F-M1.








The Su-35 is powered by two turbofan engines, giving it a range of about 3,500km on internal fuel, or 4,500km with two external fuel tanks, making it Russia’s most advanced multi-role fighter.

Macau-based military observer Antony Wong Dong said the J-11D project would help Shenyang Aircraft enter into “virtuous competition” with rival Chengdu Aerospace Corporation (CAC), another Avic offshoot that developed the J-9, J-10, J-20 and other fighters.

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## Deino

What a plain stupid piece of crap !!!

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## Tiqiu

J-11B firing live missiles

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## GeHAC

Tiqiu said:


> J-11B firing live missiles
> View attachment 361091
> 
> 
> View attachment 361092


Rocket for sure

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## Deino

GeHAC said:


> Rocket for sure




Most likely as here:

http://www.mod.gov.cn/photos/2016-12/18/content_4767097.htm

Even if I really don't get it: unguided rocket pods under a Flanker !!???

Anyway, I've never seen these practice bomb dispensers under the outer under-wing stations.

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## Jugger

What beautiful birds, flankers FTW.
Stealth has destroyed beauty in an aircraft.
The smooth contures are very pleasing for the eye.


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## Deino

Already snow at SAC ???

http://www.cannews.com.cn/epaper/zghkb/2016/12/17/A03/story/1276769.shtml


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## grey boy 2



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## grey boy 2

J-11B

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## Deino

grey boy 2 said:


> J-11B




And interesting it has both the black and silver nozzle feathers on ist WS-10 !!


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## grey boy 2

J-11





New J-11X

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## Deino

Why J-11x??? ... That is a J-11B.


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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/813977700155043840

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## grey boy 2

SU-27

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## Deino

Strangely these images don't show up in full size ???

http://www.dingsheng.com/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=974474&extra=page=1

Can anyone of You upload them here PLEASE ?

Deino


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## cirr

The #2 prototype of J-16D "Growler" took to the air yesterday(29.12.2016)

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## terranMarine



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## Deino

cirr said:


> The #2 prototype of J-16D "Growler" took to the air yesterday(29.12.2016)

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## 星海军事

cirr said:


> The #2 prototype of J-16D "Growler" took to the air yesterday(29.12.2016)



The second prototype of J-16D made its first flight in July this year.

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## 星海军事

grey boy 2 said:


> J-16


J-11BS

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## Deino

星海军事 said:


> J-11BS




Yes for sure .. not the offset IRST-dome and no IFR-probe.


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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/815178140586606592

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## grey boy 2

J-11 (南部战区，空2师。机型：J11武器：R77主动中距离空空弹，R27ER（ET）半主动中距离弹，R73近距离格斗空空弹。
训练时间：2016年11月25日。)

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## cirr



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## cirr

16

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## Deino

cirr said:


> 16
> 
> View attachment 368227




Indeed; prototype 03 !


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## Deino

cirr said:


> 16
> 
> View attachment 368227





__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/820202062772256768
He also mentions, that the J-16 is now operational within two Regiments: Known for sure is only the 175. Brigade FTTC, what is the second unit ??


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## monitor

Newly released pic shows J-11B carried the unnamed long range AAM in last year's Red Sword exercise.

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## grey boy 2



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## cirr

monitor said:


> Newly released pic shows J-11B carried the unnamed long range AAM in last year's Red Sword exercise.

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## grey boy 2

J-16 "1603" HD pictures

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## Deino

grey boy 2 said:


> J-16 "1603" HD pictures



Impressive bird ! I would love to see an operational one in full serials and not only pt. 03 ! Anyway a nice shot.

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## Brainsucker

Has the J-16 radar problem solved by them now?


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## grey boy 2

J-11D?





J-16?

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## 帅的一匹

grey boy 2 said:


> J-11D?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> J-16?


Sexy to the most!

I thought it was a Su35?

https://view.inews.qq.com/a/20170125A05IO700China had successfully developed the high power microwave weapon that's can destroy enemy incoming missile and even kill the enemy pilots, the weapon can be installed on PLA navy battleships.

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## Deino

grey boy 2 said:


> J-11D?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> J-16?




To admit, even if it seems so, but looks as if the radome is no longer canted, I'm almost sure it is a J-15.

Even more since that J-16 '1613' image is already more than two years old; it's from the 11. May 2014.

IMO it seems as if this again is nothing more than a repost of old images randomly put together.

Deino

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## ahojunk

*China's J-11 fighters in actual-combat training*
(People's Daily Online) 08:11, May 13, 2014





China's J-11 fighters are in actual-combat training. (China Military Online)

China's J-11 fighters from the air force of the Chengdu Military Area Command (MAC) of the People's Liberation Army (PLA) are in actual-combat training over plateau. 





China's J-11 fighters are in actual-combat training. (China Military Online)





China's J-11 fighters are in actual-combat training. (China Military Online)





A J-11 fighter is in actual-combat training. (China Military Online)





China's J-11 fighters are in actual-combat training. (China Military Online)





The air force of the Chengdu Military Area Command (MAC) of the People's Liberation Army (PLA) conducts actual-combat training. (China Military Online)





The air force of the Chengdu Military Area Command (MAC) of the People's Liberation Army (PLA) conducts actual-combat training. (China Military Online)

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## Deino

Is the J-11B still in production ? I wonder a bit, since the "final" new bird with the highest c/n I know was spotted as J-11B 0618 on 31. December 2014 ... and the equivalent BS was 0321.

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## cnleio

Deino said:


> Is the J-11B still in production ?


I heard ShenYang is busy on mass-produce J-15 fighters for Navy, and prepare for production of J-16 and J-11D for PLAAF ... long time not see new J-11B out.

BTW all J-10B/C, J-20 from ChengDu and J-11D/J-16, FC-31 from ShenYang already(will) equip China domestic AESA fire-control radar inside nose ... good news is Chinese start building hundreds advanced fighters to improve strength of PLAAF in Asia region.

1st step PLAAF need equip 1,000+ 3-gen & 4-gen advanced fighters in 2020.

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## 帅的一匹

cnleio said:


> I heard ShenYang is busy on mass-produce J-15 fighters for Navy, and prepare for production of J-16 and J-11D for PLAAF ... long time not see new J-11B out.
> 
> BTW all J-10B/C, J-20 from ChengDu and J-11D/J-16, FC-31 from ShenYang already(will) equip China domestic AESA fire-control radar inside nose ... good news is Chinese start building hundreds advanced fighters to improve strength of PLAAF in Asia region.
> 
> 1st step PLAAF need equip 1,000+ 3-gen & 4-gen advanced fighters in 2020.
> View attachment 373728
> View attachment 373729


Then WS10x shall be very reliable that we can mass produce these fighters.

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## cnleio

wanglaokan said:


> Then WS10x shall be very reliable that we can mass produce these fighters.


After last 200+ AL-31 jet engines deal China bought from Russia (now most installed on J-11B and J-10A / J-10B fighters), recent years we not read any new deal from both ... when find out latest J-10C / J-11D / J-16 fighter photos out on internet, we can see they flying with domestic WS-10 jet engines.

It seems China WS-10x jet engines can mass production, after solved domestic engine problem China new-designed fighters like J-15/J-10C/J-11D/J-16 can mass production too. So next two years if there no any news about jet engine deal from Moscow to BeiJing, i believe YES domestic WS10x jet engine already done ~! Of course the speed of Chinese building new fighters won't stop, will see more PLAAF fighters with WS-10x.


With domestic Jet Engines & AESA fire-control radar mass production & equip on aircrafts, total fighter numbers of PLAAF J-10A/J-10B/J-10C/J-11/J-11B/J-11D/J-16/J-15/J-20/J-31 *can easily over 1,000+ soon *_*(as far as i know now 200+ J-10A, 90+ J-10B, 150+ J-11, 100+ J-11B, 40+ J-15, future J-10C / J-11D / J-16 each will produce 200x, J-20 will produce 200x too)*_, we also has hundreds of Su35 / Su30mkk / Su30mk2 / JH-7A / J-8II / J-7 fighters. 

21-century is a exciting century for China & Chinese Airforce.

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## WarFariX

cnleio said:


> After last 200+ AL-31 jet engines deal China bought from Russia (now most installed on J-11B and J-10A / J-10B fighters), recent years we not read any new deal from both ... when find out latest J-10C / J-11D / J-16 fighter photos out on internet, we can see they flying with domestic WS-10 jet engines.
> 
> It seems China WS-10x jet engines can mass production, after solved domestic engine problem China new-designed fighters like J-15/J-10C/J-11D/J-16 can mass production too. So next two years if there no any news about jet engine deal from Moscow to BeiJing, i believe YES domestic WS10x jet engine already done ~! Of course the speed of Chinese building new fighters won't stop, will see more PLAAF fighters with WS-10x.
> 
> 
> With domestic Jet Engines & AESA fire-control radar mass production & equip on aircrafts, total fighter numbers of PLAAF J-10A/J-10B/J-10C/J-11/J-11B/J-11D/J-16/J-15/J-20/J-31 *can easily over 1,000+ soon *_*(as far as i know now 200+ J-10A, 90+ J-10B, 150+ J-11, 100+ J-11B, 40+ J-15, future J-10C / J-11D / J-16 each will produce 200x, J-20 will produce 200x too)*_, we also has hundreds of Su35 / Su30mkk / Su30mk2 / JH-7A / J-8II / J-7 fighters.
> 
> 21-century is a exciting century for China & Chinese Airforce.


hey hey calm dowwn
control ur emotions...i m getting jealoused 

dont u think J-10A will get retired soon in coming years?



cnleio said:


> I heard ShenYang is busy on mass-produce J-15 fighters for Navy, and prepare for production of J-16 and J-11D for PLAAF ... long time not see new J-11B out.
> 
> BTW all J-10B/C, J-20 from ChengDu and J-11D/J-16, FC-31 from ShenYang already(will) equip China domestic AESA fire-control radar inside nose ... good news is Chinese start building hundreds advanced fighters to improve strength of PLAAF in Asia region.
> 
> 1st step PLAAF need equip 1,000+ 3-gen & 4-gen advanced fighters in 2020.
> View attachment 373728
> View attachment 373729


@Deino how many J-11Ds have been spotted uptil now and can we expect mass production this year?


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## Deino

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> @Deino how many J-11Ds have been spotted uptil now and can we expect mass production this year?




As far as I know three are confirmed but You should better ask @cnleio or others !

By the way, what about these regularly popping up rumours concerning a "Silent Flanker" (Photoshop PS below) ...







... and that Sino-Su-34 ??







Rumours and just plain fakes or indeed real projects ????


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## Akasa

Deino said:


> As far as I know three are confirmed but You should better ask @cnleio or others !
> 
> By the way, what about these regularly popping up rumours concerning a "Silent Flanker" (Photoshop PS below) ...
> 
> View attachment 375284
> 
> 
> 
> ... and that Sino-Su-34 ??
> 
> View attachment 375285
> 
> 
> 
> Rumours and just plain fakes or indeed real projects ????



I think they are fake. The Su-34 copy stemmed from a rumor that the PLAAF was considering to buy the Su-34 (which later turned out to be untrue).

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## cirr

Lots of J-16s












30+ new birds this year?

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## Deino

Nice ... so where are all these new-built J-16s gone (operational) ??

By the way, in the second image - at least in front - there are J-11B and BH single seater too.


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## WarFariX

is this
J-11D????
@Deino

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## Deino

Nope ... An old (actually April 2014) image showing a Batch 06 J-11B

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## Pepsi Cola

Deino said:


> Nope ... An old (actually April 2014) image showing a Batch 06 J-11B


I noticed that you can sometimes identify a fighter equipped with AESA by looking at the nose cut. Is this always the case? And why do you think they have to make it this obvious?
@Deino

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## WarFariX

Okarus said:


> I noticed that you can sometimes identify a fighter equipped with AESA by looking at the nose cut. Is this always the case? And why do you think they have to make it this obvious?
> @Deino


you noticed it right , most AESA equipped fighters have upward canted nose


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## Deino

Okarus said:


> I noticed that you can sometimes identify a fighter equipped with AESA by looking at the nose cut. Is this always the case? And why do you think they have to make it this obvious?
> @Deino



But this image of a J-11D is a baaaaaad photoshop.


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## Ultima Thule

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> you noticed it right , most AESA equipped fighters have upward canted nose


Can you explain it* Why?* Sir *can you give some technical reasons for it sir?*


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## Pepsi Cola

Deino said:


> But this image of a J-11D is a baaaaaad photoshop.


Yeah I noticed, but I simply trying to find an image to explain what I meant. This will do.

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## Deino

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> View attachment 375823
> is this
> J-11D????
> @Deino




PS... interesting, I know this bird only from a video and these three shots also showing FC-31V1 in the background.

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## yusheng



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## Deino

yusheng said:


> View attachment 376157




Hmm ...not sure esp. since the text is in Chinese, but the lineage seems a bit off: The J-15-tree is ok but the J-16 is clearly airframe-wise a Su-30MKK-offspring. Also the MK2 is a further development of the MKK and not a new "branch" in that tree ... IMO a bit off or can anyone explain ??

Deino


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## Akasa

Deino said:


> Hmm ...not sure esp. since the text is in Chinese, but the lineage seems a bit off: The J-15-tree is ok but the J-16 is clearly airframe-wise a Su-30MKK-offspring. Also the MK2 is a further development of the MKK and not a new "branch" in that tree ... IMO a bit off or can anyone explain ??
> 
> Deino



I think it was adapted from my chart that was posted on SDF. It's not a "lineage" but rather an identification chart.


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## Deino

SinoSoldier said:


> I think it was adapted from my chart that was posted on SDF. It's not a "lineage" but rather an identification chart.




Ok. ! After a bit of search I found this one ...

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## Deino

Can anyone confirm that #11D4 had its maiden flight at the end of 2016 ?


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## Deino

Flanker production at SAC ...

November 2016






May 2016





October 2015

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## WarFariX

Deino said:


> Flanker production at SAC ...
> 
> November 2016
> View attachment 378146
> 
> 
> May 2016
> View attachment 378148
> 
> 
> October 2015
> View attachment 378147


the ones on the top right of nov 2016 looks like j11d


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## Deino

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> the ones on the top right of nov 2016 looks like j11d




Why do You think so ?? For me they all look too much the same to even differ between a single seater (aka a J-11D) and a twin seater (aka a J-16) since they are currently the only versions build.


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## Deino

Just a strange rumour: There is a report at Twitter stating that there are rumours concerning a cancellation or the very likely abandonment of the J-11D program. Reportedly some SAC fans on CJDBY forums are really upset about this.

Allegedly the J-11D can't survive out of anti-stealth radar coverage in real battle and is more costly than the J-10C when within. Besides that for long range patrol over sea the J-16 and Su-35 are sufficient.

Does anyone know more ??

Deino


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## Pepsi Cola

Deino said:


> Just a strange rumour: There is a report at Twitter stating that there are rumours concerning a cancellation or the very likely abandonment of the J-11D program. Reportedly some SAC fans on CJDBY forums are really upset about this.
> 
> Allegedly the J-11D can't survive out of anti-stealth radar coverage in real battle and is more costly than the J-10C when within. Besides that for long range patrol over sea the J-16 and Su-35 are sufficient.
> 
> Does anyone know more ??
> 
> Deino


Maybe that's also the reason why we suddenly see models of FC-31 and the Navy ship together.

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## 帅的一匹

Deino said:


> Just a strange rumour: There is a report at Twitter stating that there are rumours concerning a cancellation or the very likely abandonment of the J-11D program. Reportedly some SAC fans on CJDBY forums are really upset about this.
> 
> Allegedly the J-11D can't survive out of anti-stealth radar coverage in real battle and is more costly than the J-10C when within. Besides that for long range patrol over sea the J-16 and Su-35 are sufficient.
> 
> Does anyone know more ??
> 
> Deino


Very likely!



Okarus said:


> Maybe that's also the reason why we suddenly see models of FC-31 and the Navy ship together.


You mean the gesture to compensate SAC's J11D death


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## cirr

J-16D #2

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## Akasa

Deino said:


> Just a strange rumour: There is a report at Twitter stating that there are rumours concerning a cancellation or the very likely abandonment of the J-11D program. Reportedly some SAC fans on CJDBY forums are really upset about this.
> 
> Allegedly the J-11D can't survive out of anti-stealth radar coverage in real battle and is more costly than the J-10C when within. Besides that for long range patrol over sea the J-16 and Su-35 are sufficient.
> 
> Does anyone know more ??
> 
> Deino



I saw the original rumor; the statement was that the PLAAF is seeking to purchase the J-10C/D, J-20, & J-16 in the coming year, but not the J-11D.

That doesn't necessarily mean that the j-11D has been terminated, since it is still in development (it took some 3-4 years for the J-16 to enter initial service) so the PLAAF obviously cannot buy it now. Additionally, wasn't there a rumor of a 4th J-11D prototype just two months ago?

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## WarFariX

is this SU-35 with J-11D ? @Deino @Beast @SinoSoldier


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## Deino

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> is this SU-35 with J-11D ? @Deino @Beast @SinoSoldier




YES ... but only a CG ! Just look at the J-11A's serial number. it's much too large, the Su-35's numbers are too round and in the second image there's an AAM just hanging under the J-11A's cockpit.

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## WarFariX

Deino said:


> YES ... but only a CG ! Just look at the J-11A's serial number. it's much too large, the Su-35's numbers are too round and in the second image there's an AAM just hanging under the J-11A's cockpit.


View media item 17344sir @Deino now to complete this chart with chinese su35 , where would be put it ?


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## Deino

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> View media item 17344sir @Deino now to complete this chart with chinese su35 , where would be put it ?




Since this is an identification chart only and not one showing the lineage, I would put it here ...

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## lcloo

From the CG master Gaoshan, SU-35

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

I'm looking forward to see China develop a variant of J-xx with forward swept wing with SU-27 body. China need to chart the uncharted technology or technologies that other are not willing to share.


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## WarFariX

lcloo said:


> View attachment 380693
> View attachment 380694
> View attachment 380695
> 
> 
> From the CG master Gaoshan, SU-35


is this j11d ? @Deino


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## Ultima Thule

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> is this j11d ? @Deino


No sir, i think its Su-35 look at the missiles @Deino can you confirm that this is either J-11D or Su-35

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## lcloo

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> is this j11d ? @Deino


It is SU-35, but it is a CG (computer graphic). The creator of this CG is highly regarded as his past CG creations are quite accurate.

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## Deino

Via SDF/



SinoSoldier said:


> The latest rumor is that new J-11B airframes are now retrofitted with an AESA radar.
> 
> ========
> 
> Another major rumor/speculation is that the PLAAF may purchase up to 96 (three squadrons' worth) Su-35SK aircraft, mainly due to the uncertainty as to when the J-11D will enter service. Analysts estimate that J-11D induction might not occur until 2018 at the very earliest and that the PLAAF needs to have the numbers gap filled quickly.
> 
> It's also mentioned that the J-11D would be delegated more to the air-to-air role, since the J-16 serves as an interdiction fighter, whereas the Su-35 would be more multi-role in its usage. It's also interesting to note that it's generally expected for the Su-35 to have an advantage in kinematics and for the J-11D to hold the edge in avionics.



reportedly via weibo.com/1894445180/EyPHIxhd5 ... even if I don't get a certain weibo-account !!??


Anyway IMO this would fit nicely together: The J-11D would result in a de facto sort of MLU-project for the J-11B. By replacing their avionics build around an AESA and adding maybe uprated engines, would give then enough lease of life for the next decade(s) to come.
Also additional Su-35 - even if surely some Chinese fan-boys won't like that - would immediately add a value addition in the short term modernisation.

Would only be interesting to see if these modified J-11B will also have that canted radome?

Deino

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## WarFariX

Deino said:


> Via SDF/
> 
> 
> 
> reportedly via weibo.com/1894445180/EyPHIxhd5 ... even if I don't get a certain weibo-account !!??
> 
> 
> Anyway IMO this would fit nicely together: The J-11D would result in a de facto sort of MLU-project for the J-11B. By replacing their avionics build around an AESA and adding maybe uprated engines, would give then enough lease of life for the next decade(s) to come.
> Also additional Su-35 - even if surely some Chinese fan-boys won't like that - would immediately add a value addition in the short term modernisation.
> 
> Would only be interesting to see if these modified J-11B will also have that canted radome?
> 
> Deino


the hell :-( ....J-11d offers a different and less rcs airframe design better than any j-flanker ...i think china was forced to cancel the project..


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## Deino

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> the hell :-( ....J-11d offers a different and less rcs airframe design better than any j-flanker ...i think china was forced to cancel the project..




Following the latest info by pupu - even if at all much confusing to me - the J-11D is not cancelled but delayed.

Here the full original post:



> 中国可能扩大采购苏-35战机，国产歼-11D战机前景不明
> 
> 而且最近还出现了新出厂的歼-11B小改款黄皮机。
> 近日，有外国网友在国外大型社交网站上传了一张图片，显示一群俄罗斯工程人员在1架疑似中国购买的苏-35战斗机前合影。该网友还援引俄罗斯飞机制造公司消息称，这些俄方工程人员是厂家派往中国对苏-35战斗机进行售后维护和服务的团队成员。
> 
> 在此之前，俄罗斯塔斯社也报道称，俄方继去年12月底首次向中国交付4架苏-35战斗机后，将于今年和明年再各交付10架。也就是说，中国首批采购的全部24架苏-35战斗机会于明年交付完毕。
> 
> 尽管不少人对我国在国产隐身第四代战斗机歼-20已陆续试装部队的情况下，是否应继续引进3.75代战斗机苏-35持完全否定态度，近期来自俄罗斯权威媒体、国内知名军事自媒体的消息却显示，中国很可能不但会继续引进苏-35，而且引进的总体规模还不会小。
> 
> *中国空军加速淘汰二代和早期三代战机*
> 随着我国军改进入“脖子以下”改革攻坚年，空军部队编制改革和调整也开始有实质性动作。歼-7战斗机团、强五强击机团等二代机团数量将会大幅度压缩。预计包括歼-7、歼-8、强五等在内的二代战机可能于2020年后，最迟2025年全部退出现役；20多年前引进的苏-27SK/UBK战机开始陆续退役；歼-10A/B、歼-11B（旧款）等早期三代战机已停产，JH-7A战斗轰炸机也处于极其低速的生产状态。
> 
> 目前我国主要生产3.5代及以上战机，包括歼-10C/D、歼-11D（试飞阶段）、歼-16、歼-16D（试飞阶段）、歼-20（试装阶段）等。仍在继续低速生产的三代机除了前面提及的JH-7A，还有歼-10S（双座战斗教练机）、歼-11B新款（推测升级了雷达等设备）、歼-11BS（双座战斗教练机）、歼-15（舰载战斗机）等。
> 
> 作战任务决定装备需求。面对我国周边国家装备的越来越的F-35等四代战机，我国空军现有大量二代、早期三代战机越来越派不上用场，必须加速构建以四代机为骨干，三代以上战机为主体的作战装备体系。因此，出现前述战机生产状况的变化是意料中事。
> 
> 对应这一装备体系可以看出，歼-10C/D战机很好的填补了我国中型3.5代战机的空白；歼-20战机是四代机目前的不二选择；歼-16战机则将全面替换JH-7A、苏-30、强五等战术攻击机。只是在重型3.5代战机这一块，国产战机还没有能顶上的型号，与之对应的歼-11D战机仍处于原型机试飞阶段。
> 
> 所以，在引进苏-35战机前出现的“坚决反对引进论”，引进后出现的“不再引进论”，并不符合我国空军装备发展需求的实际，也是对我军未来面对的空战压力的忽视。须知F-35战机将批量出现在日本、韩国，甚至亚太更多国家已是必然。而且无论某些专家或业内人士如何贬低，F-35作为一款典型四代战机，对四代以下战机的压倒性优势都是不争的事实。
> 
> 在加速歼-20战机试用试装，尽早开始批量装备部队，主要用以应对F-35、F-22等别国四代战机的同时，中国空中力量必须有足够的3.5代战机压制别国四代以下战机，以使得歼-20战机可以心无旁骛的全力对“敌”。
> 
> *苏-35战机须形成规模以发挥更大作战效能*
> 中国于去年确定进口24架苏-35战机后，我国军工自主研发的歼-11D战机也消息不断。先后有该型机的01、02号原型机曝光，更有网友于四川某地机场拍到推测是驻扎当地进行高原试飞的歼-11D、歼-16D（电战型）“双D”战机。
> 
> 然而，从那时算起，即使一切顺利的话，歼-11D战机完成厂家试飞，进入空军试飞部队试装、编写训练大纲和教材至少还需两年，也就是要到明后年。预计在全部24架苏-35战机交付中国空军后，歼-11D战机最好的进度应该是处于小批量试装阶段。
> 
> 如此一来，当歼-11D战机状态达到批量列装状态时，就与已是空军正式装备的苏-35战机有了约两年的时间差。面对复杂多变、压力渐增的我国周边环境，空军是否会忽略这一时间差？
> 
> 按照”能打仗、打胜仗“，一切从实战出发的要求，空军显然不会在主战装备建设上”等靠“。所以，继续引进更多苏-35战机成为现实的，也是可行的办法。
> 
> 回顾中国于上世纪90年代初开始的引进苏-27系列战机的历程，仅有一型装备海军航空兵的苏-30MK2只引进了1个团24架的数量，其他战机引进数量都在76架以上。苏-30MK2仅引进24架也是因为中方使用后发现，对于最急需的精确对海攻击能力，该型机在弹种丰富程度上甚至不及国产JH-7A战斗轰炸机。当然，该型机因其双座双发、作战半径大、可发射中距拦射导弹的特点，仍被海军当做远程制空战斗机使用。
> 
> 因此，从规模效应的角度来说，中国未来继续引进两至三个团数量的苏-35战机，是很有可能的事情。届时，最多可达96架的苏-35战斗机可分别在我国南部、东部战区形成两大3.5代重型战机突击群。这两大突击群配合歼-20战机，无论是应对从南面袭来的美海军战机，还是面对东面的日本空自战机，都可以底气充足的一较高下。
> 
> *歼-11D与苏-35相比各有优劣，但在时间上不占优势*
> 歼-11D战机的优势在于：机载有源相控阵火控雷达（AESA）应该优于苏-35战机的无源相控阵雷达，而且改进升级潜力更大；配套的中距拦射导弹、近距格斗导弹等国产弹药性能也优于苏-35配套弹药。其与苏-35一样应用了数字电传飞控系统，但两者性能是否一致，或是各有优劣，目前尚不得而知。
> 
> 苏-35战机的优势在于：机身结构经过重大优化设计；机体寿命大大延长；机动性更出色；发动机更给力；内油量更大，因此航程和作战半径也更大；有效载荷更大，能携带的武器弹药也更多。此外，虽然原配俄制精确制导弹药相比中国国产同类弹药并无优势，但苏-35确实是一款“双重任务战斗机”，任务延展性更强。相比较而言，歼-11D战机因为有了歼-16战机的存在，定位更偏向于较纯粹的3.5代空优战斗机。
> 
> 歼-11D战机原本最大的优势在于是国货，其采购仅受限于产能，不像苏-35战机的引进那样，还要考虑很多采购以外的因素。然后，目前歼-11D战机的研发进度仍不明朗，迟迟未有厂家定型，转入部队试飞试用的消息传出。
> 
> 服役时间未定这一点大大抵消了歼-11D战机的国货优势。在歼-10C批量装备部队，歼-10D研发顺利的当前，中国空军更加渴望尽早大批量装备同属3.5代的双发重型战斗机，以适应越来越多的远空、远海作战和训练需求。
> 
> 在歼-16这款3.5代双重任务战斗机日趋成熟，装备部队的数量也较快增长之时，中国空军对新型战术攻击机的需求得到初步满足。剩下的新型重型战机需求，就被可以相对容易得到的苏-35战机填补了。所以，继续引进、引进更多的苏-35战斗机，已成中国空军于主客观因素影响下很可能做出的抉择。
> 
> 如此一来，歼-11D作为在中国空军当前和未来作战体系中与苏-35定位基本重合的战斗机，就算能于两年内快速定型，并转入批量生产，空军留给它的装备“配额”恐怕也不会多了。
> 
> 最后，还有一个新动向值得关注。早已停产的歼-11B战机近来很可能已恢复生产。新生产的该型机据推测为小改款，可能换装了有源相控阵雷达（AESA），加装了空中加油受油管，甚至也可能换装了全数字电传飞控系统。

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## cirr

J-16s

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## Akasa

cirr said:


> J-16s
> 
> View attachment 383853



Any news regarding the J-11D?


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## yusheng



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## 帅的一匹

yusheng said:


> View attachment 383862


Su35 cockpit?


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## Deino

cirr said:


> J-16s
> 
> View attachment 383853




Ohhh what would I give to know what operation unit they will be assigned to.

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## cirr

Deino said:


> Ohhh what would I give to know what operation unit they will be assigned to.



Over 10 birds were at the site going by the words of the person who took the pic.


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## Deino

cirr said:


> Over 10 birds were at the site going by the words of the person who took the pic.




Oouuuuuhhhh ... even more a reason to know where they will be assigned to.


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## Akasa

There are fresh rumors that the J-11D program has been halted, in light of resumed J-11B production and the PLAAF's satisfaction with the Su-35 (up to 96 may be ordered). Don't know how credible this is.

@星海军事 Any thoughts?

http://weibo.com/ttarticle/p/show?id=2309404089946561486710

http://mini.eastday.com/a/170323195111809.html#0-tsina-1-45165-397232819ff9a47a7b7e80a40613cfe1


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/845837647490691072

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## Deino

SinoSoldier said:


> ... in light of resumed J-11B production ...




Has this been confirmed ???


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## Akasa

Deino said:


> Has this been confirmed ???



I think it's only speculation at this point. In fact, as "oedosoldier" later pointed out, the resumed J-11B production is only to replace lost PLANAF airframes.

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## grey boy 2

Rare: SU-27SK with PL-12 missiles? 改装可挂PL12导弹？中国苏27SK战机难得露面

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## Deino

grey boy 2 said:


> Rare: SU-27SK with PL-12 missiles? 改装可挂PL12导弹？中国苏27SK战机难得露面




First of all nice to see You back !! Even if I do not always agree with You I admire Your contributions ...

Concerning this image I'm indeed not sure .. at first sight I thought it could be a R-77, but it looks indeed more like a PL-12.

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## Deino

I was cross-checking a bit what kind of missile this could be and a R-77 is it not for sure: It's slimmer and protrudes not that much out in front of the intakes.






Also the PL-12 is unlikely ... again being slimmer and standing not out in front of the intakes:






Consequently IMO it is plain and simple an old R-27 without its fins; here the same image in the original size:






The R-27 is slightly wider in diameter and clearly stands out in front of the intakes as here on this Su-27 too:






By the way we only have very few images showing a PL-12 in the "tunnel" and even less on the under-intake-pylons. This is IMO the only image I know:

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## Get Ya Wig Split

J-11 fighter seen at Woody I. in Paracels- 1st time in 1yr. Poss. more in nearby hangars. 3 Spratlys could see similar deployments in future


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/850030353288790016

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## grey boy 2



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## grey boy 2



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## Deino

grey boy 2 said:


>




Any info on what base these images were taken ??


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## 帅的一匹

Deino said:


> Any info on what base these images were taken ??


Why you always ask the base info?

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## Deino

wanglaokan said:


> Why you always ask the base info?




I want to keep my ORBAT-list up to date ... I know this gives some of You some strange feelings, but I'm a number-fanatic. To know what 5-digit serial number + the certain base gives You the information on what Regiment of what Division operates from what base.

Esp. here is interesting, that this photographer "zhang81zhang" is lurking around most of all one certain base ... he usually erases - nasty habit  - the serial numbers to circumvent security issues - but if You follow his posts and compare his images You noticed, that this certain unit transitioned from J-11A to the B-model in recent years.

Deino

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## rcrmj

SinoSoldier said:


> There are fresh rumors that the J-11D program has been halted, in light of resumed J-11B production and the PLAAF's satisfaction with the Su-35 (up to 96 may be ordered). Don't know how credible this is.
> 
> @星海军事 Any thoughts?
> 
> http://weibo.com/ttarticle/p/show?id=2309404089946561486710
> 
> http://mini.eastday.com/a/170323195111809.html#0-tsina-1-45165-397232819ff9a47a7b7e80a40613cfe1
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/845837647490691072


bull, all rumors, they will test it before making decisions on additional Su-35`

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## 帅的一匹

rcrmj said:


> bull, all rumors, they will test it before making decisions on additional Su-35`


解放军还要买苏35？


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## Akasa

rcrmj said:


> bull, all rumors, they will test it before making decisions on additional Su-35`



Could you link me to a source that shows it's still undergoing testing?


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## rcrmj

wanglaokan said:


> 解放军还要买苏35？


不一定的，买35的事情本来就很复杂。根本不是产能啊、技术啊等等这一类显而易见的猜测，虽然也有这方面的考虑。还有中国空军之间的切磋也是常有的事情，苏35作为北国最先进的战机，不管是对其摸底还是自用操练都是非常有必要的。目前看来很难想象毛子在苏35之后还会有什么惊艳之作出来······有可能这个是最后一次绽放了···谁知道



SinoSoldier said:


> Could you link me to a source that shows it's still undergoing testing?


you ask me for a link I give none, in our circle there is no concept as 'links for verification'````none of those insitutions will put on any of their jobs, projects or excercises on a web or tell a media```````even if there is a link, to us, it would be either quite outdated or not important anymore``

besides its a common logic, PLAAF bought Russia's most advanced fighter, for any purpose, either study the structural designs or testing the limits or integrating into PLAAF's system, or getting familiar with it or anything else```they have test it


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## Akasa

rcrmj said:


> 不一定的，买35的事情本来就很复杂。根本不是产能啊、技术啊等等这一类显而易见的猜测，虽然也有这方面的考虑。还有中国空军之间的切磋也是常有的事情，苏35作为北国最先进的战机，不管是对其摸底还是自用操练都是非常有必要的。目前看来很难想象毛子在苏35之后还会有什么惊艳之作出来······有可能这个是最后一次绽放了···谁知道
> 
> 
> you ask me for a link I give none, in our circle there is no concept as 'links for verification'````none of those insitutions will put on any of their jobs, projects or excercises on a web or tell a media```````even if there is a link, to us, it would be either quite outdated or not important anymore``



The reason why I asked is because the same "circle" stated that the J-11D project as been stopped ("dismounted" in Chinese lingo).


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## rcrmj

SinoSoldier said:


> The reason why I asked is because the same "circle" stated that the J-11D project as been stopped ("dismounted" in Chinese lingo).


I dont know about that```


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## grey boy 2

J-11B, BS

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## grey boy 2

J-11BS

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## Fledgingwings

Time for 5th generation aircrafts to acquire.


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## grey boy 2

J-11B, J-11BS

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## Deino

grey boy 2 said:


> J-11B, J-11BS




Again my question !!!! what's this base .... please ??


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## grey boy 2

J-11B

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## Deino

grey boy 2 said:


> J-11B




Nice ... J-11B cn. 0513 visible !


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## cirr

New J-16s






Pic taken this afternnon.

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## Deino

Hey look, a new helmet but also a new fox-badge under the cockpit !

Any more info ?

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## antonius123

SinoSoldier said:


> The reason why I asked is because the same "circle" stated that the J-11D project as been stopped ("dismounted" in Chinese lingo).



Why stopped? not good enough?


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## grey boy 2

Deino said:


> Hey look, a new helmet but also a new fox-badge under the cockpit !
> 
> Any more info ?
> 
> View attachment 394135
> View attachment 394136



Making a movie only, 拍电影



antonius123 said:


> Why stopped? not good enough?



I believed its just rumors that J-11D program has been stopped, in fact it just took a test flight on 4/28/07
4月28日，有北方某城市网友拍摄到歼-11D战斗机原型机时隔多日再度进行了约80分钟的飞行测试。此前，歼-11D战斗机研制单位曾传出消息，该项目已经被“叫停”。歼-11D战斗机首架原型机自2015年4月首飞后进度一直不快，第4架原型机于去年底首飞。
http://www.fyjs.cn/thread-1865641-1-1.html


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## samsara

_One of the four prototypes of J-11D made an 80-minute test flight to Shenyang last Friday (April 28, 2017). Between J-11D and Su-35, which one will carry on?_

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/859102099107323904

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## Deino

samsara said:


> _One of the four prototypes of J-11D made an 80-minute test flight to Shenyang last Friday (April 28, 2017). Between J-11D and Su-35, which one will carry on?_
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/859102099107323904



The problem is only that this is a J-15 and not a J-11D. It lacks the canted radome and was taken already posted in April 2011 !!












PS:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/859463130321010689

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## Pepsi Cola

Deino said:


> The problem is only that this is a J-15 and not a J-11D. It lacks the canted radome and was taken already posted in April 2011 !!
> 
> View attachment 394286
> View attachment 394287
> View attachment 394289
> 
> 
> PS:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/859463130321010689



I agree. The black and white strip behind the engines is an indication as well. 

The non-canted grey radome suggests that there's a PESA radar in there.

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## grey boy 2

J-11D thanks @SinoSoldier for the correction (If its been posted before, please ignore)

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## Akasa

grey boy 2 said:


> J-16 (If its been posted before, please ignore)



This is a J-11D.

Also, is there new information regarding J-11D? Has the program really been suspended or is it simply delayed (or undergoing a change)?

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## grey boy 2

SinoSoldier said:


> This is a J-11D.
> 
> Also, is there new information regarding J-11D? Has the program really been suspended or is it simply delayed (or undergoing a change)?



I believed its just rumors that J-11D program has been stopped, in fact it just took a test flight on 4/28/07
4月28日，有北方某城市网友拍摄到歼-11D战斗机原型机时隔多日再度进行了约80分钟的飞行测试。此前，歼-11D战斗机研制单位曾传出消息，该项目已经被“叫停”。歼-11D战斗机首架原型机自2015年4月首飞后进度一直不快，第4架原型机于去年底首飞。
http://www.fyjs.cn/thread-1865641-1-1.html


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## Akasa

grey boy 2 said:


> I believed its just rumors that J-11D program has been stopped, in fact it just took a test flight on 4/28/07
> 4月28日，有北方某城市网友拍摄到歼-11D战斗机原型机时隔多日再度进行了约80分钟的飞行测试。此前，歼-11D战斗机研制单位曾传出消息，该项目已经被“叫停”。歼-11D战斗机首架原型机自2015年4月首飞后进度一直不快，第4架原型机于去年底首飞。
> http://www.fyjs.cn/thread-1865641-1-1.html



According to internet buzz, the J-11D might either end up as a testbed or be modified to incorporate Su-35 technologies. Any word on whether if the J-11D will enter service at all?


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## Deino

grey boy 2 said:


> J-11D thanks @SinoSoldier for the correction (If its been posted before, please ignore)




Yes, since July 2016 !

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## grey boy 2



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## grey boy 2

Some rumors that J-11D may turn into a test bed plane like the J-8ACT in the old days or restart the whole program by using the SU-35 tech as the measuring stick

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## Akasa

grey boy 2 said:


> Some rumors that J-11D may turn into a test bed plane like the J-8ACT in the old days or restart the whole program by using the SU-35 tech as the measuring stick



Then what will replace the J-11D as the bulk of the PLAAF's heavyweight 4th gen fighter? Su-35s or a "J-11E"?


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## grey boy 2

J-11BS

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## Deino

grey boy 2 said:


> J-11BS



Nice - J-11BS with c/n 0316 - but sadly again with psed serial number.

By the way, does anyone at least know from what base or unit "zhang81zhang" takes his pictures ?


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## grey boy 2

Deino said:


> Nice - J-11BS with c/n 0316 - but sadly again with psed serial number.
> 
> By the way, does anyone at least know from what base or unit "zhang81zhang" takes his pictures ?


I heard he came into a term with the authority that its ok for him to release pictures without serial no and location and he's really good at it, no one has been able to track either the location or serial no, hope it help
PS: of cos he's no ordinary wall climber as well

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## Deino

grey boy 2 said:


> I heard he came into a term with the authority that its ok for him to release pictures without serial no and location and he's really good at it, no one has been able to track either the location or serial no, hope it help
> PS: of cos he's no ordinary wall climber as well




Thanks ... for me it would be interesting to know at least the base, since a few years ago he posted J-11As ... while since a few months this unit must have converted to the J-11B.


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## antonius123

grey boy 2 said:


> Some rumors that J-11D may turn into a test bed plane like the J-8ACT in the old days or restart the whole program by using the SU-35 tech as the measuring stick




It will take long time to restart the whole program. Why not abandon it and just continue with J-20 and J-31? Wont the flankers design be obsolote soon replaced by purely stealth design fighter?


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## LookSee

antonius123 said:


> It will take long time to restart the whole program. Why not abandon it and just continue with J-20 and J-31? Wont the flankers design be obsolote soon replaced by purely stealth design fighter?


Flanker's design won't be "obsolete" in the sense that it is way too expensive to go with a sole 5th gen fleet anytime in the near future, so might as well maximize its potential.

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## grey boy 2

J-11B, BS (筷子兄弟)

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## Brainsucker

grey boy 2 said:


> Some rumors that J-11D may turn into a test bed plane like the J-8ACT in the old days or restart the whole program by using the SU-35 tech as the measuring stick



Why They put J-11D as a test bed plane? Is it because SU-35?


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## grey boy 2

SU-30 MKK2 from the East Sea Fleet

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## Deino

Brainsucker said:


> Why They put J-11D as a test bed plane? Is it because SU-35?




I would suggest, to wait ... the J-11D is barely flying since two years and if we remember how long it took for the J-10B and C to enter service ... and the J-16 too, it's unlikely that the D could have already entered service. In comparison the RuAF Su-35S is fling since 200X ... so it's no wonder that it is currently more matured.

And these rumours that it will be some sort of testbed only are IMO overrated.

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## grey boy 2

SU-30MKK2

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## grey boy 2

J-11A in training

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## grey boy 2

Pictures released by the PLAAF

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## Deino

Reportedly a PLAAF Su-35 was spotted today ... but here:

http://china.liveuamap.com/en/2017/20-may-su35sk-spotted-in-flight--

Quite far away from its alleged Southern Theatre Command home.

Deino

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## grey boy 2

Some said its from

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## Deino

grey boy 2 said:


> Some said its from




Yes, their home-base is reportedly Suixi, but that image was - also allegedly - taken in the North.


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## grey boy 2

Navy's J-11BS (credits to zhang81zhang) 
[原创] 空军航空兵某旅继续接装某重型三代机

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## 帅的一匹

grey boy 2 said:


> Navy's J-11BS (credits to zhang81zhang)
> [原创] 空军航空兵某旅继续接装某重型三代机



So PLAAF continue churn out J11b?

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## 帅的一匹

How many J16/D do we have now?


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## Deino

grey boy 2 said:


> Navy's J-11BS (credits to zhang81zhang)
> [原创] 空军航空兵某旅继续接装某重型三代机



But that is clearly not a PLANAF bird. These are naval-BS in a very light-grey camo.

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## grey boy 2

SU-30 MKK2

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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/867945851984859136

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## grey boy 2

J-11D and SU-35 spotted  Dingxi air base 

歼11D与苏35同时惊现鼎新基地http://www.nhjd.net/thread-66429-1-1.html 转贴2017年4月21日鼎新基地高清卫星图。苏35的涂装比苏30、歼11颜色较深，从卫星图上基本可以确定停机坪上停放了两架苏35。歼11D目前处于定型阶段，试验机目前都是黄皮装，机头又是灰色雷达罩，还是比较好分辨的。歼11D的电子技术高于苏35一代，苏35的机动性优于歼11D,两型飞机对抗谁更厉害呢？（南海研究论坛提供，转载请注明出处）

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## Deino

Are You sure these are Su-35 ??? 

IMO the ones in the top-right corner esp. due to the dark scheme are J-16s; the Su-35 even more have a light-grey / blue two-tone scheme and these clearly not.


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## grey boy 2

J-11

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## Deino

grey boy 2 said:


> J-11




Interesting due to two reasons:

1. They are modified/upgraded ones able to use the R-77.

2. following this report: http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2017-05/28/content_7621103_3.htm



> Two J-11 fighter jets take off simultaneously during a flight training exercise on May 27, 2017. They are attached to an aviation brigade under the air force of the PLA Western Theatre Command.



As such it would be good to know if they are from the 111th Brigade at Korla (a strange unit, that has just been converted back from the J-11B to the J-11A (or at least gained a few A) or if the 33rd Fighter Division has also converted to a Base/Brigade scheme.


Deino


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## grey boy 2

J-11 (credits to zhang81zhang)

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## WarFariX

J-11D spotted





New J-16 Pics

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## Deino

WarFariX said:


> J-11D spotted
> View attachment 400060
> 
> 
> New J-16 Pics
> View attachment 400061
> View attachment 400063




Impressive ... but is this really a "D" or is it me and the radome is no longer canted ?














WarFariX said:


> J-11D spotted
> View attachment 400060



After a second look, it seems to be a J-16 too. Just look at the radome's demarcation and these two small pitots left and right behind. 

Ar the J-16D got the same radar .... ???


----------



## WarFariX

Deino said:


> Impressive ... but is this really a "D" or is it me and the radome is no longer canted ?
> 
> View attachment 400078
> View attachment 400079
> View attachment 400080
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After a second look, it seems to be a J-16 too. Just look at the radome's demarcation and these two small pitots left and right behind.
> 
> Ar the J-16D got the same radar .... ???


i did tag u on twitter also on the pic source , even i find it hard to believe that is j11d but who knows, could be modified



Deino said:


> Impressive ... but is this really a "D" or is it me and the radome is no longer canted ?
> 
> View attachment 400078
> View attachment 400079
> View attachment 400080
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After a second look, it seems to be a J-16 too. Just look at the radome's demarcation and these two small pitots left and right behind.
> 
> Ar the J-16D got the same radar .... ???


After looking at the LERX of the J-11B and comparing with the pic you gave me and i posted , i actually now believe that it is most probably J-11D


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## Deino

WarFariX said:


> ....After looking at the LERX of the J-11B and comparing with the pic you gave me and i posted , i actually now believe that it is most probably J-11D



Why the J-11B ?? and why the LERX ??
I didn't give You an image of a J-11B and that version is ouf discussion but even if these images are not to the same size, there are more matches to a J-16 than to a J-11D. Esp. the distance from the radome to these two small pitots (see green line) is much longer ... so either this is a yellow J-16 in primer or the J-11D got a new radar.

Deino

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## 星海军事

WarFariX said:


> J-11D spotted
> View attachment 400060
> 
> 
> New J-16 Pics
> View attachment 400061
> View attachment 400063


All of these are J-16.

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## Deino

星海军事 said:


> All of these are J-16.




To admit ... what's interesting, I had a brief talk to Oedosoldier (maybe You know him at Twitter)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/869563585407537152 - IMO a very reliable guy and trusted poster - and he said this particular yellow Flanker is indeed a J-11D and he spoke to the photographer, who confirmed this bird as a single seater.

So either the J-11D no longer has a canted radome and/or a new radar or this something fishy.

Deino

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## grey boy 2

J-16 please ignore if its been posted before

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## grey boy 2

J-11

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## Deino

grey boy 2 said:


> J-11




Nice images, but these are Su-30MKK ! (look at the canted tails a+ twin front landing gear)

J-11B:

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## grey boy 2

Pictures of one of the 7 J-11B formation rehearsal for the national day





Su-30 and SU-27

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## Deino

Hats off to "Songbird" !

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## terranMarine

So "unprofessional" from PLAAF

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## Deino

terranMarine said:


> So "unprofessional" from PLAAF




Hey, come on ! A Chinese - or any other country's - aircraft in the same air at the same time. That's only can be called unprofessional.

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## UKBengali

Deino said:


> Hats off to "Songbird" !
> 
> View attachment 402461



That is a WS-10A engine.

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## Deino

UKBengali said:


> That is a WS-10A engine.




Yes ... all J-11BH have WS-10A !


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## grey boy 2

J-11BS

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## 帅的一匹



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## Deino

wanglaokan said:


> View attachment 402811




Nice but alreay Close to two years old ! I saved it on my harddrive on 1. August 2015.

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## 帅的一匹

Deino said:


> Nice but alreay Close to two years old ! I saved it on my harddrive on 1. August 2015.


how many J16 do China have now?


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## grey boy 2

wanglaokan said:


> how many J16 do China have now?


60-70

J-11B

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## Deino

Finally some news:

http://mil.news.sina.com.cn/jssd/2017-06-12/doc-ifyfzfyz3347938.shtml



> The first batch of our army to equip the 16 fighter jets to expose the number of service or over 40



Not sure if I translated correctly, but it seems as if the PLAAF has so far received more than 40 J-16s and the 3rd Division has replaced all her J-7s with J-16s, which would mean the 7th Air Regiment at Wuhu.

Can anyone confirm?

Deino

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## grey boy 2



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## Deino

J-16s ?!?

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## grey boy 2

SU-30MKK with air to land missiles 苏30MKK挂载空对地弹

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## grey boy 2

J-16?

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## Deino

grey boy 2 said:


> J-16?




Difficult to say from this distance and angle.

But it seems so ...


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/876666823709605888

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## 星海军事

Deino said:


> J-16s ?!?
> 
> View attachment 404215


True.


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## Deino

星海军事 said:


> True.




Any ide of their unit ?


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## grey boy 2



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## 帅的一匹

Now we are churn out fighter jets as fast as making sausages.

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## grey boy 2

7 J-11B formation (解放军歼11B七机进行编队训练：国机国发的代表)

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## antonius123

Anybody ever heard J-17 program? Is it real or hoax?


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## Deino

antonius123 said:


> Anybody ever heard J-17 program? Is it real or hoax?



Pure fan art.


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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/881123931859681282

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## Akasa

Does anybody know the significance of this?


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## Deino

SinoSoldier said:


> Does anybody know the significance of this?
> 
> View attachment 411300



Why should it be ??? At first sight it looks like an ordinary yellow J-11B but if You take care of the pods it seems to be a J-16D EW-version... or is the text special ?


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## grey boy 2

J-11B and SU-30MKK

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## Deino

Another PLAAF-Brigade spotted together with a new unit badge - a lion's head.




Only reference is from the Western TC:

http://english.chinamil.com.cn/view/2017-07/18/content_7679853.htm

Since the 33rd Division, 98th Regiment spots a stylised Eagle's head + a "33" it could be the former 6th Division, 16th Regiment !?

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## Deino

No-one with an idea from which unit this J-11A (or Su-27SK ?) assigned to the Western Theatre Command is from ?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/887587019593068544

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## Deino

Hey it is indeed said to be Yinchuan and even more it fits perfect: 6th Division 16th Regiment WTC


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/887604774237065216

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## Deino

Anyone with an idea of what former Regiment, now Brigade they speak of?
Even more it sounds as if they say something about a restart of the J-11B production ?

http://www.guancha.cn/military-affairs/2017_07_11_417622.shtml



> *空军“杜凤瑞大队”所在部队改编 即将换装新型国产战机*
> 据中国空军网7月10日报道，东部战区空军航空兵某旅在改革强军的大潮中，传承英雄血脉，克服困难大搞实战化练兵。随着该旅的组织结构基本调整完毕，该旅也将换装新型国产战机，部队建设站上了新的发展起点。
> 
> 这是一支驻扎在英雄城南昌城外不过几十公里，从战火硝烟中走来的英雄部队。其前身航空兵某师历史上曾2次入朝、7次参加国土防空作战，击落击伤敌机17架，4次参加首都国庆阅兵，涌现出“空军英雄战士”杜凤瑞、“98抗洪”英雄机务大队、“英雄航天员”聂海胜、“空军功勋飞行员”王俊飞等一大批英模典型。
> 
> 1958年10月10日，福建龙田上空，年仅25岁的杜凤瑞单机杀入敌群，一连击落两架敌机，因飞机中弹失控跳伞，遭敌袭击血洒长空。为表彰杜凤瑞的功绩，空军授予杜凤瑞“空军英雄战士”荣誉称号，追记一等功，并将杜凤瑞生前所在中队命名为“杜凤瑞中队”，后又改编为“杜凤瑞大队”。
> 
> 今年初，伴随着改革强军体制重塑，这个*旅在原航空兵某师所属2个团站基础*上应运而生。旅政委说：“作为旅组建后的第一茬人，全旅官兵大力传承红色基因和英雄血脉，决心把英雄的旗帜扛起来，一代代传下去。”
> 
> 英雄部队所歌颂的，不只是历史，更是唱出了新时期的“强军战歌”。十八大以来，该师多次执行演习驻训、对抗竞赛等大项任务，在转战大江南北中取得了不俗战绩：2人获得“金头盔”，所属某二代机部队2次获得空战优胜单位，成为空军唯一一个二代机新型飞行教官培训任务试点成果推广单位。
> 
> 今年4月的改革调整中，该旅10名老飞行员因超龄无法改装新机，将转隶分流至兄弟部队。即驻扎在武夷山脚的航空兵某团，与组成这个旅的2个团同属某师，装备的也是苏27SK、歼11战机。随着空军转型建设步伐的加快，他们*即将换装某新型国产战机*，加之*新型飞行教官培训试点推广*任务牵引，部队建设站上了新的发展起点。
> 
> 该旅装备的国产歼11战斗机还有较多使用寿命，倒是原装的苏27SK战斗机寿命堪忧。目前，该旅已经改制完成，原先混装的歼7E战机亟需退役，存在较大的战机缺口。作为对台一线主力师，该旅很有可能先裁汰一部分寿命到期的苏27战机，然后快速换装刚刚恢复生产的国产歼11B战机。




IMO it sounds very much like the 14th Fighter Division, 41st Regiment at Wuyishan, which is said to be under conversion to the J-11B since some time.


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## Deino

small but nice a J-16-image armed with PL-10 + PL-15, seems to be the new standard AAM-combo replacing PL-8 & PL-12.

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## TopCat

aimarraul said:


> F-16C\D and fC-20 will be good enough to match SU-30MKI



you are dead wrong.


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## Deino

Confirmed 16th Brigade ...

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## Deino



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## Deino

9. Brigade identified

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## SQ8

Deino said:


> 9. Brigade identified
> 
> View attachment 413535


Interesting paint scheme coming out of these rehashed PLAAF divisions.


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## Deino

Oscar said:


> Interesting paint scheme coming out of these rehashed PLAAF divisions.



Why? What's so special? IMO it is the standard MKK-scheme.

Here another J-16

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## SQ8

Deino said:


> Why? What's so special? IMO it is the standard MKK-scheme.
> 
> Here another J-16
> 
> View attachment 414133


The radome job looks different to me


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## Deino

The J-16s are also assigned to the 176. Brigade like the J-20s.

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## yusheng



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## 星海军事



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## Akasa

星海军事 said:


>



Interesting, J-16s.

By the way, what is the status of the J-11D and J-15B programs?


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## Deino

J-16 78077 - 176. Brigade 20170731 = c/n 0207






Hey ... and here an earlier image of the same bird:


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

what is the longest range of Chinese Air to Air missile, do we have something that's over 400km to deal with AWAC ?


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## siegecrossbow

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> what is the longest range of Chinese Air to Air missile, do we have something that's over 400km to deal with AWAC ?



Maximum range of 400~500 KM.

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## Genesis

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> what is the longest range of Chinese Air to Air missile, do we have something that's over 400km to deal with AWAC ?


I wouldn't worry about the range. The range must be consistent with radar. Right now, 400KM may even be stretching it. 

It's the same problem, Brahmos faces. It can be 1,000 km range and be indestructible, but what are you going to hit if you don't know exactly where the enemy is. That's even if the Brahmos sale goes through, it doesn't matter(it didn't). This is a very precise operation, it's not carpet bombing Tokyo, where you drop and hope for the best.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Genesis said:


> I wouldn't worry about the range. The range must be consistent with radar. Right now, 400KM may even be stretching it.
> 
> It's the same problem, Brahmos faces. It can be 1,000 km range and be indestructible,* but what are you going to hit if you don't know exactly where the enemy is*. That's even if the Brahmos sale goes through, it doesn't matter(it didn't). This is a very precise operation, it's not carpet bombing Tokyo, where you drop and hope for the best.



Set ADIZ over new Delhi, we can interdict any of their civilian or military cargo entering New Delhi even from our border, 400km will be good enough since New Delhi is just 360km from our border

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## cirr

J16-78077

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## Deino

cirr said:


> J16-78077




Thanks for posting a larger version ... even if already here:
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/the-...27sk-ubk-su-30mkk.355949/page-51#post-9780885

By the way, what are the other units equipped with J-16 ?? ... there are reports about the former 7th Regiment, 3rd Division ?!


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## cirr

Deino said:


> Thanks for posting a larger version ... even if already here:
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/the-...27sk-ubk-su-30mkk.355949/page-51#post-9780885
> 
> By the way, what are the other units equipped with J-16 ?? ... there are reports about the former 7th Regiment, 3rd Division ?!



Wuhu, southwest of Nanjing  the 7th brigade

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## Deino

That made my day !


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## Deino

Indeed ... here are more 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/899538252494815234


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## Deino

By the way, will the PLANAF also receive the J-16?


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## siegecrossbow

Deino said:


> By the way, will the PLANAF also receive the J-16?



Depends on how many J-16s are produced.


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## siegecrossbow

Deino said:


> By the way, will the PLANAF also receive the J-16?



That was fast! First night solo flight by PLANAF J-16!

http://m.guancha.cn/military-affairs/2017_08_22_423921.shtml


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## Deino

siegecrossbow said:


> That was fast! First night solo flight by PLANAF J-16!
> 
> http://m.guancha.cn/military-affairs/2017_08_22_423921.shtml




Hmm ... to admit I'm not convinced, a least not yet.

Most jets shown are clearly single seater and the best I would say it is clearly a twin-seater is right on the beginning, but this has also the typical deeper PL-8-pylons as well as a pitot, so its most likely a J-11BSH.

I'm really not sure ....

Deino


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

I hope China to retire JH-7 and replace all by J-16 very soon, it's too old for modern warfare.


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## Figaro

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> I hope China to retire JH-7 and replace all by J-16 very soon, it's too old for modern warfare.


The JH-7A is still a pretty capable, especially compared to the ancient Q-5. Besides, China has yet to replace the 200+ J-7's still in service which are practically flying coffins. The Jh-7 is relatively modern ... so to speak.


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Figaro said:


> The JH-7A is still a pretty capable, especially compared to the ancient Q-5. Besides, China has yet to replace the 200+ J-7's still in service which are practically flying coffins. The Jh-7 is relatively modern ... so to speak.



Lol J-7 is still flying? seriously


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## Figaro

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> Lol J-7 is still flying? seriously


They are mainly used as training aircraft. The PLAAF does not have a blank check you know

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Figaro said:


> They are mainly used as training aircraft. The PLAAF does not have a blank check you know



I know but flying a J-7 is just usless in 21st century, might as well save these money and energy on these worthless jet.


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## Figaro

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> I know but flying a J-7 is just usless in 21st century, might as well save these money and energy on these worthless jet.


The energy demands and maintenance of the J-7 are minimal, unlike newer 4th/5th generation fighter jets. The same goes for the PLA's obselete inventory of Type 59 tanks; they're easy to maintain and still quite reliable.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Figaro said:


> The energy demands and maintenance of the J-7 are minimal, unlike newer 4th/5th generation fighter jets. The same goes for the PLA's obselete inventory of Type 59 tanks; they're easy to maintain and still quite reliable.



So what is the point to develop 4th/5th gen fighter is to save some cost than save the nation...LMAO


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## Figaro

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> So what is the point to develop 4th/5th gen fighter is to save some cost than save the nation...LMAO


Excuse me, but why does the US only have 183 F-22 fighters while still having thousands of 30 year old F-16's and F-15's? This is not a simply black or while situation ..

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Figaro said:


> Excuse me, but why does the US only have 183 F-22 fighters while still having thousands of 30 year old F-16's and F-15's? This is not a simply black or while situation ..



C'mon give me a break, compare an obsoletes J-7 to F-16? I just hope what Chinese government know what they're doing, Japan even retired their F1 and phantom F-4 while keep the best of the best on operation such F2, F-15J...anyway I said what I have to say.


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## Figaro

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> C'mon give me a break, compare an obsoletes J-7 to F-16? I just hope what Chinese government know what they're doing, Japan even retired their F1 and phantom F-4 while keep the best of the best on operation such F2, F-15J...anyway I said what I have to say.


What are you even talking about? Japan has a much smaller Air Force than China. And besides, the J-7 still serves as an excellent trainer, to the point that they were discontinued only in 2013. The PLAAF is never going to use it in combat; it is primarily in training and reserve. Unfortunately, the PLA does not have an unlimited budget.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Figaro said:


> What are you even talking about? Japan has a much smaller Air Force than China. And besides, the J-7 still serves as an excellent trainer, to the point that they were discontinued only in 2013. The PLAAF is never going to use it in combat; it is primarily in training and reserve. Unfortunately, the PLA does not have an unlimited budget.



Then tell me honestly, are these pilots trained with J-7 will be fully capable to operate 3th, 4th and 5th gen fighters and meet modern air combat environment condition? sure we don't have unlimited budget but I rather use this money to train less with sophisticate fighter than train a lot with obsolete fighter.


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## Figaro

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> Then tell me honestly, are these pilots trained with J-7 will be fully capable to operate 3th, 4th and 5th gen fighters and meet modern air combat environment condition? sure we don't have unlimited budget but I rather use this money to train less with sophisticate fighter than train a lot with obsolete fighter.


You have to walk before you run. Pilots don't immediately get assigned to a J-11B (I presume). They must undergo dozens of hours on these older aircraft. And in terms of avionics, the latest J-7's are actually quite modern so it isn't exactly a "quantum" leap to 4th generation.

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## Deino

Guys ... can we leave out the J-7 discussion ?? Fact is, the PLAAF has still several in service even if we don't like it ...

So go out and search for new J-15-images, or where is the J-11D ???

Deino


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## Figaro

Deino said:


> Guys ... can we leave out the J-7 discussion ?? Fact is, the PLAAF has still several in service even if we don't like it ...
> 
> So go out and search for new J-15-images, or where is the J-11D ???
> 
> Deino


According to recent posts on Chinese forums, the J-11D is not cancelled and is still undergoing modifications similar to the transition to the FC-31V2. It is a much more capable plane than the J-11D prototype of April 2015. But that is where the rumors end unfortunately ... But the J-11D is not cancelled, despite the "rumors".


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## Akasa

Figaro said:


> According to recent posts on Chinese forums, the J-11D is not cancelled and is still undergoing modifications similar to the transition to the FC-31V2. It is a much more capable plane than the J-11D prototype of April 2015. But that is where the rumors end unfortunately ... But the J-11D is not cancelled, despite the "rumors".



How credible are these rumors? If it is true that the J-11D is undergoing a revision comparable to that between the FC-31V1 and FC-31V2, we could potentially see airframe changes or even application of RCS-reducing measures in its fuselage. Engine and avionics upgrades are, of course, never out of the question as well.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Interesting new, J-16 will replace several jets, don't know if it's truth or child play video but I will be glad that JH-7 is include in the plan.


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## Brainsucker

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> Interesting new, J-16 will replace several jets, don't know if it's truth or child play video but I will be glad that JH-7 is include in the plan.



Whaaaat? JH-7? Don't you know that JH-7A beat SU-34 in Aviadart? JH-7A platform is still good even in today aircraft standard.

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## Figaro

Brainsucker said:


> Whaaaat? JH-7? Don't you know that JH-7A beat SU-34 in Aviadart? JH-7A platform is still good even in today aircraft standard.


Yeah, and both of them are dedicated strike fighters. The surprising thing is the Su-35S only beat the J-10 on air-ground combat (no air-air exercises), with both jets not being dedicated fighter-bombers.

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## grey boy 2

J-16

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## Deino

... but sadly again without a visible serial number.

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## JSCh

*J-11 fighter jets fly over the mountains *
Editor：Huang Panyue Time：2017-09-01



A pilot assigned to an aviation brigade of the air force under the PLA Western Theater Command climbs into the cockpit of his J-11 fighter jet to execute pre-flight inspections prior to the flight training at a military airfield on August 31, 2017. (eng.chinamil.com.cn/Photo by Chen Qingshun)




​A J-11 fighter jet assigned to an aviation brigade of the air force under the PLA Western Theater Command taxies along the flightline as it prepares for a sortie during the flight training at a military airfield on August 31, 2017. (eng.chinamil.com.cn/Photo by Chen Qingshun)




​A J-11 fighter jet assigned to an aviation brigade of the air force under the PLA Western Theater Command flies over the mountains during the flight training on August 31, 2017. (eng.chinamil.com.cn/Photo by Chen Qingshun)

*Su-30 fighter jets complete successful deployment *
Editor：Huang Panyue Time：2017-09-01





​A Su-30 fighter jet attached to an aviation regiment with the PLA Air Force receives fuel from a fuel probe in an aircraft hangar prior to the flight training in north China's Hebei Province on August 27, 2017. (eng.chinamil.com.cn/Photo by Tang Huaihui)




​A Su-30 fighter jet attached to an aviation regiment with the PLA Air Force receives fuel from a fuel probe in an aircraft hangar prior to the flight training in north China's Hebei Province on August 27, 2017. (eng.chinamil.com.cn/Photo by Tang Huaihui)
​



​A Su-30 fighter jet attached to an aviation regiment with the PLA Air Force navigates along the flightline in speed before takeoff during the flight training at a military airfield in north China's Hebei Province on August 27, 2017. (eng.chinamil.com.cn/Photo by Tang Huaihui)

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## grey boy 2

J-16 (Not sure this has been posted before)

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## grey boy 2

SU-27 SK? "39102" what does it meant?

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## grey boy 2



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## Deino



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## grey boy 2

J-16 in pair

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## cnleio

J-11 pilot's HMD

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## Deino

cnleio said:


> J-11 pilot's HMD


 
But that is not a real one; only a requisite for the film "Sky Hunter". So far we haven't seen this on any operational fighter.


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## cnleio

Deino said:


> But that is not a real one; only a requisite for the film "Sky Hunter". So far we haven't seen this on any operational fighter.


“Sky Hunter” film supported by PLAAF, all film props come from real PLAAF equipments including the J-20 stealth fighter, without PLAAF how a film company can hire a J-20 in the film?

They plan to display a Chinese Top-Gun film, PLAAF provide all latest aircrafts & equipments to show off in this "Sky Hunter" film - China Airforce Theme Movie

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## 帅的一匹

Can we in the future invite a famous Hollywood director to take a movie about China airforce?


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## kristisipe

Shameless Chinese finger pointers talk shit about President Xi and Chinese government but they LOVE American made propaganda. I knew it. I just knew it.... These traitors talk like they've done everything for China but in fact they are 2 faced cowards who have done nothing. The moment they get power they will collaborate with foreigners and sellout their own. That's exactly what they are.....


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## ozranger

Deino said:


> But that is not a real one; only a requisite for the film "Sky Hunter". So far we haven't seen this on any operational fighter.



Hi Deino, someone took the question about the helmet to the movie maker. The movie maker stated that they were given the helmet by the participating PLAAF staff and told it is a new helmet still under ongoing development.

Here is my opinion: it is basically adding a cover to the heading two piece parts of the helmet mounted sights. You can see that the glass piece for targeting still remains up there while being contained under the cover. Whether there is enhancement on functionality is yet to know.

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## Deino

Ähhhmm .... J-11B still or better to say again in production ???

Is this a recent report or an already older one???

http://slide.mil.news.sina.com.cn/k/slide_8_193_56466.html#p=1


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## Figaro

Deino said:


> Ähhhmm .... J-11B still or better to say again in production ???
> 
> Is this a recent report or an already older one???
> 
> http://slide.mil.news.sina.com.cn/k/slide_8_193_56466.html#p=1


I thought sina wasn't a reliable site ...


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## Deino

Figaro said:


> I thought sina wasn't a reliable site ...



Yes ... but they are not always wrong and therefore I ask.


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## samsara

wanglaokan said:


> Can we in the future invite a famous Hollywood director to take a movie about China airforce?


What do you think that makes such move necessary?


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## Figaro

samsara said:


> What do you think that makes such move necessary?


What's wrong with the Chinese directors? It's been sooooo long since the last good Air Force flick by Hollywood : Top Gun (1986). I seriously doubt Hollywood would be a good replacement to direct PLAAF movies...



Deino said:


> Yes ... but they are not always wrong and therefore I ask.


Until we get clear new J-11B serials, the rumors can't be considered valid ...


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## Akasa

Figaro said:


> What's wrong with the Chinese directors? It's been sooooo long since the last good Air Force flick by Hollywood : Top Gun (1986). I seriously doubt Hollywood would be a good replacement to direct PLAAF movies...
> 
> 
> Until we get clear new J-11B serials, the rumors can't be considered valid ...



Any new updates on the J-11D? It seems to be taking an awfully long time to debut.


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## Figaro

SinoSoldier said:


> Any new updates on the J-11D? It seems to be taking an awfully long time to debut.


If recent rumors of the J-11B production restart is true, that does not bode well for the J-11D. I thought they were making revisions to the J-11D but we haven't seen it in more than 2 years ... they haven't given up on the project but aren't necessarily making too much progress either I presume


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## 帅的一匹

Figaro said:


> If recent rumors of the J-11B production restart is true, that does not bode well for the J-11D. I thought they were making revisions to the J-11D but we haven't seen it in more than 2 years ... they haven't given up on the project but aren't necessarily making too much progress either I presume


After they get Su35, they will try to modify J11D accordingly.


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## cirr

SinoSoldier said:


> Any new updates on the J-11D? It seems to be taking an awfully long time to debut.

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## Deino

How likely is it that these are J-16?

Or given the fact that we saw several times one J-11D + one J-16 together I assume these are exactly these two birds. On one of then the canopy looks longer.


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## cirr

Deino said:


> How likely is it that these are J-16?
> 
> Or given the fact that we saw several times one J-11D + one J-16 together I assume these are exactly these two birds. On one of then the canopy looks longer.



These images were taken on 09.08.2017. J-16 in yellow primer at DX? Not very likely.

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## Deino

cirr said:


> These images were taken on 09.08.2017. J-16 in yellow primer at DX? Not very likely.




Unlikely but not impossible esp. since this pair was on tour at several locations all over China last year and this "combo" looks remarkable similar.

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## grey boy 2

A standard J-11B regiment, 25 officers. The focal point is the right side of the picture, a "pulse Doppler radar flat slot antenna" spotted for the 1st time (i'm not sure if the translation of the term( 首见脉冲多普勒雷达的平板缝隙天线) is correct, strict from google translate) 标准的歼11B团，25名飞官。亮点是右边那架首见脉冲多普勒雷达的平板缝隙天线。

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## Akasa

Figaro said:


> If recent rumors of the J-11B production restart is true, that does not bode well for the J-11D. I thought they were making revisions to the J-11D but we haven't seen it in more than 2 years ... they haven't given up on the project but aren't necessarily making too much progress either I presume





cirr said:


> View attachment 425010



Does this mean that the J-11D is under evaluation or pre-production? Because a photo of a J-11D prototype doesn't tell us much, IMO.


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## Figaro

Zhu Rong Zheng Yang said:


> _Recalling old picture_ ... ...
> PLAAF ~ *Su-30MKK + J-11A*
> 
> Are these Su-30MKK patrolling ECS ADIZ day and night ?
> Are they causing so much Fear and Sleepless night among JPN F-15J pilots ?
> 
> 
> View attachment 426857


Oh come on! Let's not make those types of condescending comments towards the Japanese alright? I'm sure that they know how to counter any enemy threat, just like how the PLAAF knows how to counter the Japanese. And I'm really not sure if F-35 and F-15/F-2 equipped Japanese pilots would panic over a 20+ years old Su-27SK or Su-30MKK for all that matter. China really shouldn't underestimate the potency of the Japanese; the latter takes the PLAAF very seriously.


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## Deino



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## grey boy 2



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## Figaro

grey boy 2 said:


>


J-11B?



Zhu Rong Zheng Yang said:


> Typical response from a Japan Neocons and ameriscum SLAVE.
> We all can WATCH ~ How U Continuously and VIGOROUSLY -- Defending JPN and ameriscum.


Whatever you say ... idiot. If you want to continue kissing Russian a$$, that's fine with me.


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## Adam WANG SHANGHAI MEGA

Figaro said:


> J-11B?
> 
> 
> Whatever you say ... idiot. If you want to continue kissing Russian a$$, that's fine with me.


Speechless idiot Yankee slave！

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## Deino

54th Brigade spotted...


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## grey boy 2

J-16

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## grey boy 2



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## grey boy 2

Finally some regular pictures to save my neck

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## grey boy 2

From the movie scene "Sky Hunter 《空天猎》"

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## grey boy 2

J-11B 图不在大，有号则名。
Disclaimer: i do not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials.

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## Deino

grey boy 2 said:


> J-11B 图不在大，有号则名。
> Disclaimer: i do not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials.



Not sure what the text says but and why this J-11B is psed again, but it is clearly a former 19th regiment aircraft that became a brigade.

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## grey boy 2

SU-30MKK2
Disclaimer: I do not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials.

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## grey boy 2

J-16
Disclaimer: I do not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials.

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## ozranger

Deino said:


> View attachment 427114


A PLAN's J-11B as of the fuselage coating and the colour of the helmet.


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## grey boy 2

J-11 or SU-27? #制胜空天# 强军路上！
Disclaimer: I do not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials.

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## grey boy 2

Nice picture
Disclaimer: I do not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials.

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## grey boy 2

A nice CG of J-16
Disclaimer: I do not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials.

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## grey boy 2

(AVIC) recently for the 1st time publicly unveiled J-11D testing on high plateau through their official video (近日，中航工业官方发布的视频中首次公开了歼-11D在高原进行测试的画面。虽然画面一闪而过，但还是被细心的军事观察员们所捕捉到了。从现场画面参试人员的装具来看，其测试条件应该十分艰苦，包括高原缺氧、强紫外线照射。综合各方面信息来看，这组镜头应该并非是近期拍摄的。)
Disclaimer: I do not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials.

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## Akasa

grey boy 2 said:


> (AVIC) recently for the 1st time publicly unveiled J-11D testing on high plateau through their official video (近日，中航工业官方发布的视频中首次公开了歼-11D在高原进行测试的画面。虽然画面一闪而过，但还是被细心的军事观察员们所捕捉到了。从现场画面参试人员的装具来看，其测试条件应该十分艰苦，包括高原缺氧、强紫外线照射。综合各方面信息来看，这组镜头应该并非是近期拍摄的。)
> Disclaimer: I do not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials.



Did the commentary say anything about the progress of the J-11D program?


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## Deino

Isn't this an old image from mid to late last year when these high-altitude testings took place?


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## grey boy 2

SinoSoldier said:


> Did the commentary say anything about the progress of the J-11D program?


(1) file photo, what matter most was it appeared in the promotion video
(2) the 4th prototype testing with new engines along from the recently imported planes delivery from a well known blogger 
Disclaimer: I do not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials.

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## Akasa

grey boy 2 said:


> (1) file photo, what matter most was it appeared in the promotion video
> (2) the 4th prototype testing with new engines along from the recently imported planes delivery from a well known blogger
> Disclaimer: I do not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials.



How recent is the second rumor regarding a 4th prototype with newer engines?


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## grey boy 2

SinoSoldier said:


> How recent is the second rumor regarding a 4th prototype with newer engines?


Just about a week ago, the iron vest

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## Akasa

grey boy 2 said:


> Just about a week ago, the iron vest



Interesting, if true then it lends credence to the theory that the Su-35s were bought partly due to interest in its powerplants.


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## grey boy 2

SinoSoldier said:


> Interesting, if true then it lends credence to the theory that the Su-35s were bought partly due to interest in its powerplants.


I believed the promotion video is the most important indication of the J-11D program is alive and kicking as ever

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## Akasa

grey boy 2 said:


> I believed the promotion video is the most important indication of the J-11D program is alive and kicking as ever



But the promotional video showed footage supposedly from last year.


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## grey boy 2

SinoSoldier said:


> But the promotional video showed footage supposedly from last year.


Iron vest said fcuk the J-11D program termination rumor, its all up to anyone guess

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## Akasa

grey boy 2 said:


> Iron vest said fcuk the J-11D program termination rumor, its all up to anyone guess



Which is hardly a confirmation of the J-11D's continuation.


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## grey boy 2

J-11B
Disclaimer: I do not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials.

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## grey boy 2

SU-30MKK 
Disclaimer: I do not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials.

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## grey boy 2

J-16 source:（图片来源：兵器2017年增刊）
Disclaimer: I do not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials.

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## grey boy 2

PLAAF #制胜空天# 中国空军蓄势待发，砥砺前行！（2）








Disclaimer: I do not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials.

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## Deino

grey boy 2 said:


> PLAAF #制胜空天# 中国空军蓄势待发，砥砺前行！（2）
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Disclaimer: I do not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials.



Thanks for keeping us updated and I hope You don't take this as a personnel offence ... but is it really necessary to post such low-quality images (similar to #841)?  
They are so much blurred and pixelated that they are image-wise completely irrelevant. 

In contrast to those two, #855 is simply gorgeous ! 

Again, not meant as an offence ...
Deino

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## grey boy 2

J-16 in camera 
Disclaimer: I do not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials.

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## Deino

Pardon to correct You again, not a J-16 but a CG of a J-16

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## JSCh



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## Figaro

How many J-16 fighters are currently in the PLAAF's inventory? Thanks ...


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## Deino

What do You think?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/925277741846532096


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## 52051

I heard some news from China military BBS claimed that J-16 is overpriced, SAC try to make J-16 the so-called 50% cost of J-20 with 70% capability, and they end up with 110% cost of J-20 and less than 30% performance.

As for the number of units, I think SAC have delievered roughly 20 J-16s to PLA.

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## Deino

52051 said:


> I heard some news from China military BBS claimed that J-16 is overpriced, SAC try to make J-16 the so-called 50% cost of J-20 with 70% capability, and they end up with 110% cost of J-20 and less than 30% performance.
> 
> As for the number of units, I think SAC have delievered roughly 20 J-16s to PLA.




Thanks ... any additional info on how many J-11Bs were new-built in this latest batch?


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## 星海军事

52051 said:


> I heard some news from China military BBS claimed that J-16 is overpriced, SAC try to make J-16 the so-called 50% cost of J-20 with 70% capability, and they end up with 110% cost of J-20 and less than 30% performance.
> 
> As for the number of units, I think SAC have delievered roughly 20 J-16s to PLA.



That is impossible. Military trading in China is a buyer's market. You can not sell something to PLA at whatever price you want.

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## 52051

星海军事 said:


> That is impossible. Military trading in China is a buyer's market. You can not sell something to PLA at whatever price you want.



Of cause it is quite possible, the price is we are talking now is the agreed price of this fighter.

The PLA cannot control the cost of the fighter, they can help decide the price of an item with the manufacturer through a evaluation routine, usually including cost evaluation plus "reasonable" profit rate for the supplier.

So they can control the profit of the fighter, that means, SAC cannot charge the airforce for 100million USD for their J-16 if the manufacutring cost is proved to be only 80 million USD, however the PLA cannot ask the SAC to sold their figther for 60 million USD if the cost is estimated to be 80 million USD, althrough they can just not buy this one.



Deino said:


> Thanks ... any additional info on how many J-11Bs were new-built in this latest batch?



Not any info about J-11B I am not actively follow its news laterly.


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## 星海军事

52051 said:


> I heard some news from China military BBS claimed that J-16 is overpriced, SAC try to make J-16 the so-called 50% cost of J-20 with 70% capability, and they end up with 110% cost of J-20 and less than 30% performance.





52051 said:


> Of cause it is quite possible, the price is we are talking now is the agreed price of this fighter.
> 
> The PLA cannot control the cost of the fighter, they can help decide the price of an item with the manufacturer through a evaluation routine, usually including cost evaluation plus "reasonable" profit rate for the supplier.



According to the 《军品价格管理办法》([1996]计价管108号文), no matter how much the cost is, the profit should always be 5%. Thus if the cost of those fighters had been somehow raised by 60%, it is also responsible for PLAAF to buy them with 60% higher price. We cannot maintain the price while the cost is increasing. It just doesn't work that way.


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## Akasa

星海军事 said:


> According to the 《军品价格管理办法》([1996]计价管108号文), no matter how much the cost is, the profit should always be 5%. Thus if the cost of those fighters had been somehow raised by 60%, it is also responsible for PLAAF to buy them with 60% higher price. We cannot maintain the price while the cost is increasing. It just doesn't work that way.



Is this why the J-11D has not been accepted into PLAAF service - what is the state of the program?


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## 52051

星海军事 said:


> According to the 《军品价格管理办法》([1996]计价管108号文), no matter how much the cost is, the profit should always be 5%. Thus if the cost of those fighters had been somehow raised by 60%, it is also responsible for PLAAF to buy them with 60% higher price. We cannot maintain the price while the cost is increasing. It just doesn't work that way.



So whats your point then, stop waste our time if you make no objection to my first post thanks.


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## Akasa

52051 said:


> So whats your point then, stop waste our time if you make no objection to my first post thanks.



What he's saying is that the price tag will always yield a 5% (or more) profit margin, and thus if its cost rises significantly then the PLAAF might not buy it in the first place.


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## 52051

SinoSoldier said:


> What he's saying is that the price tag will always yield a 5% (or more) profit margin, and thus if its cost rises significantly then the PLAAF might not buy it in the first place.



It is not cost rise, it is the design target cost VS the realized cost delta.


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## Akasa

52051 said:


> It is not cost rise, it is the design target cost VS the realized cost delta.



Sorry but that by definition is a rise in cost. The target cost isn't something that engineers and managers think up on a whim.


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## 52051

SinoSoldier said:


> Sorry but that by definition is a rise in cost. The target cost isn't something that engineers and managers think up on a whim.



Then the cost can rise in China, missing design target is not just limited to US in this regard.


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## Akasa

52051 said:


> Then the cost can rise in China, missing design target is not just limited to US in this regard.



No air force would buy a 4th generation jet whose cost is greater than that of a 5th generation platform, so the claim that the J-16 has a cost that is 110% that of the J-20 is certainly false.


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## samsara

*COST is a classified information*, so no one here is supposed to know the truth.

Based on the cost information, foreign agencies may guesstimate the Quantity to produce based on that nation's economy strength and/or its military budget, something undesirable. By logic if I were the decision maker I would have quoted the much marked-up cost to the unrelated ears and eyes to disguise the potential for all possible considerations...

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## 52051

SinoSoldier said:


> No air force would buy a 4th generation jet whose cost is greater than that of a 5th generation platform, so the claim that the J-16 has a cost that is 110% that of the J-20 is certainly false.



Your logic is pretty weak in this regard


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## Deino

52051 said:


> Your logic is pretty weak in this regard




Care to explain why?? What's illogical to question that an AF would still purchase a less-capable, more dated and much more expensive design in preference to a more-capable, more modern and less expensive one?

The only factor for such a decision would be an established maintenance and logistic chain, contractual issues or a political decision.

Deino


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## Deino

41st and 95th Brigades confirmed...

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## Deino

... and yet another one: the 55th.

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## Deino



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## Deino

For the first time a J-16 was spotted with low visibility markings  ... maybe for the naval aviation??

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## Deino

... and the 40th Brigade confirmed


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## Han Patriot

Deino said:


> View attachment 439146


I am pretty sure that is a WS-10 right?


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## Deino

Han Patriot said:


> I am pretty sure that is a WS-10 right?



No, that's clearly an AL-31F esp. since it is an older J-11A or even Su-27SK.


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## Brainsucker

Deino said:


> View attachment 439146



What Flanker is this bird is? The radome doesn't has a lance model antenna, but it has only 1 pilot. So It can't be J-16. And it doesn't has canard, so it can't be J-15. So what is it? SU-35, J-11D, or new Chinese Flanker model?

Edit :
And you said that it is an old model J-11A or SU-27SK? How can it be?


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## Deino

Brainsucker said:


> What Flanker is this bird is? The radome doesn't has a lance model antenna, but it has only 1 pilot. So It can't be J-16. And it doesn't has canard, so it can't be J-15. So what is it? SU-35, J-11D, or new Chinese Flanker model?



Sorry, that I did not add a caption: It's a CG showing the J-11D.



> Edit :
> And you said that it is an old model J-11A or SU-27SK? How can it be?



Why is this an issue? china still has several Brigades of these early model Flankers in service. Not all are using the J-11B.


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## Brainsucker

Deino said:


> Sorry, that I did not add a caption: It's a CG showing the J-11D.
> 
> Why is this an issue? china still has several Brigades of these early model Flankers in service. Not all are using the J-11B.



Well, I thought you said that that bird is J-11A or SU-27SK, so I was confuse. Because it doesn't has a lance type antenna on the radome. I thought that,"Heh, J-11A doesn't use lance type antenna at the radome? Is it true?"


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## Deino

Brainsucker said:


> Well, I thought you said that that bird is J-11A or SU-27SK, so I was confuse. Because it doesn't has a lance type antenna on the radome. I thought that,"Heh, J-11A doesn't use lance type antenna at the radome? Is it true?"




Pardon, but what do You mean with "lance type antenna at the radome"??

IMO it is quite simple to differ a J-11A/Su-27SK from a J-11B. Only J-11B and BS have a black radome, while all older variants have a grey one with that characteristic notch painted.
However so far I did not find any conclusive difference to differ a J-11A from a Su-27SK.








By the way, any idea, what's that pod or store under the left intake (in the image right)?? The other pod is a KG600 ECM.


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## Brainsucker

Deino said:


> Pardon, but what do You mean with "lance type antenna at the radome"??
> 
> IMO it is quite simple to differ a J-11A/Su-27SK from a J-11B. Only J-11B and BS have a black radome, while all older variants have a grey one with that characteristic notch painted.
> However so far I did not find any conclusive difference to differ a J-11A from a Su-27SK.
> 
> View attachment 439852



lance mean that pointy stick at the front of the radome. It's not the radome, but the pointy stick type antenna at the front of the radome.


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## Deino

Brainsucker said:


> lance mean that pointy stick at the front of the radome. It's not the radome, but the pointy stick type antenna at the front of the radome.




So You mean a pitot?? All CHinese Flankers have this ... only the J-16 with it's AESA has no pitot in front of the radome.

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## Brainsucker

Deino said:


> So You mean a pitot?? All CHinese Flankers have this ... only the J-16 with it's AESA has no pitot in front of the radome.
> 
> View attachment 439856



Yes, at last!!!  it is. That yellow flanker CG doesn't has pitot, so I was confused because you said about old design as J-11A and SU-27SK, when you quote Han or something at the post he said about WS-10 engine. So maybe we have some miss understanding here

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## Deino



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## cirr

Deino said:


> View attachment 440284



PLAAF 40th brigade under Eastern Theater Command

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## Deino

cirr said:


> PLAAF 40th brigade under Eastern Theater Command




Really ??? I read that link/report just the moment too, but these are J-16, whereas the other image shown as proof for the 40. Brigade is clearly a J-11A:


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## cirr

Deino said:


> Really ??? I read that link/report just the moment too, but these are J-16, whereas the other image shown as proof for the 40. Brigade is clearly a J-11A:
> View attachment 440288
> 
> View attachment 440287



Yes

http://www.dser.com/forum.php?mod=viewtree&tid=1035482&extra=page=1

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## Deino

Thanks ... but I remain sceptical until I see a confirmed serial number.


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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/940786440945983493

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## 帅的一匹




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## Deino

wanglaokan said:


> View attachment 442455




Why a repost of exactly the same image from one post above???


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## 帅的一匹

Deino said:


> Why a repost of exactly the same image from one post above???


I can't see your Link in China, you know it. Unless I use VPN.

Not my bad.


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## Deino

wanglaokan said:


> I can't see your Link in China, you know it. Unless I use VPN.
> 
> Not my bad.




No problem ... I was only surprised.


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## Deino

Two impressive images ...

1. allegedly 5 J-11Ds







2. bottom view of a J-16:

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## Shahzaz ud din

*J-11 fighter jets take off at night*
*



*
*http://english.chinamil.com.cn/view/2017-12/22/content_7880654.htm#.Wj3Ao9oCYZA.link*


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## Deino

Seems as if the PLAAF 6th Brigade has gained a few Su-30MKK

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## clarkgap

Deino said:


> Seems as if the PLAAF 6th Brigade has gained a few Su-30MKK
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 444368



Someone believe these Su-30MKKs will compose a bridage as the trainers of Su-35.

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## Deino

clarkgap said:


> Someone believe these Su-30MKKs will compose a bridage as the trainers of Su-35.




Exactly my first thought too since they make more sense - both Russia-built - than a mix of Su-35 & J-11As.

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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/946541895114678272


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## 帅的一匹



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## cirr

J-11B+

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## Deino

cirr said:


> J-11B+
> 
> View attachment 445718




Funny ... At first sight a regular "B" but at a second look it seems to be fitted with PL-10-pylons.

Whatelse is new?


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## Deino

PS: here's another image...


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## Akasa

cirr said:


> J-11B+
> 
> View attachment 445718



Could this be the interim J-11B upgraded with AESA radar? BTW are there any updates with the progress of the J-11D program?


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## Deino

J-11D !

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## Akasa

Deino said:


> J-11D !
> 
> View attachment 445876

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## Deino

SinoSoldier said:


>



The video is dead.


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## Deino

At Cangzhou

https://lt.cjdby.net/thread-2452078-1-1.html

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## cirr

Deino said:


> At Cangzhou
> 
> https://lt.cjdby.net/thread-2452078-1-1.html
> 
> View attachment 446179



http://tv.cntv.cn/video/VSET100034782842/de7b07c4a0ee419abc09883d330b6fc6

*Xi stresses real combat training*

2018-01-03 23:25 Xinhua _Editor: Wang Fan_





Chinese President Xi Jinping, also general secretary of the Communist Party of China Central Committee and chairman of the Central Military Commission, issues an order at a mobilization meeting held by the commission on Jan. 3, 2018. (Xinhua/Li Gang)

President Xi Jinping Wednesday instructed the armed forces to strengthen real combat training and improve its war-winning capability.

Xi, also general secretary of the Communist Party of China (CPC) Central Committee and chairman of the Central Military Commission (CMC), made the remarks while issuing an order at a mobilization meeting held by the commission.

It was the first time for the commission to hold a mobilization meeting for the whole armed forces.

Xi urged the armed forces to implement the spirit of the 19th CPC National Congress and the CPC's thought on building a strong army in the new era.

At 10:00 a.m., Xi ascended to the review stand in military uniform at the main venue where more than 7,000 armed officers and soldiers, as well as nearly 300 sets of armaments, formed up in line at a range of the Central Theater Command.

Elsewhere, over 4,000 branch venues were designated to listen to Xi's instruction.

In Xi's order, he urged the army at all levels to enhance military training oriented at combat readiness and put military training at a strategic position and as the central work with effective results.

Leading officers should take the lead and play an exemplary role, Xi said, calling for real combat training and joint combat training according to rules in strict governance.

The armed forces should conduct training in fine work style, innovate method and improve support to training, tighten up supervision, and hold events of mass training for the soldiers, said Xi.

Xi called on the armed forces to enhance targeted and adversarial training, improve military real combat ability, and firmly grasp the capability to win battles.

Commanders and personnel should firmly implement the decisions and instructions by the CPC Central Committee and the CMC with a fighting spirit of fearing neither hardship nor death, Xi said.

They should also train hard in a scientific way, be brave to overcome difficulties and surpass opponents, and create an elite and powerful force that is always ready for the fight, capable of combat and sure to win in order to fulfill the tasks bestowed by the Party and the people in the new era, he added.

After the meeting, Xi reviewed assembly of soldiers on the site and training of various troops via televised devices.

CMC Vice Chairman Xu Qiliang presided over the meeting.

Other senior military officers including CMC Vice Chairman Zhang Youxia also attended the meeting.

http://www.ecns.cn/2018/01-03/286849.shtml

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## Deino

A few more ... interesting is the light grey instrument/cockpit shield instead of the J-11BS' black one.

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## Deino

hmm ...


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/948549647751987200
OedoSoldier thinks they are from the 97th Brigade, but that would be the first AR (former 97th AR) assigned to the 33rd Air Division, a former J-7E-unit. I thought this J-11BS is one of those with 78x8x from the 177th Brigade?

What do You think?

Deino


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## clarkgap

Deino said:


> hmm ...
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/948549647751987200
> OedoSoldier thinks they are from the 97th Brigade, but that would be the first AR (former 97th AR) assigned to the 33rd Air Division, a former J-7E-unit. I thought this J-11BS is one of those with 78x8x from the 177th Brigade?
> 
> What do You think?
> 
> Deino








Not clear, but looks like 70085.

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## Deino

clarkgap said:


> View attachment 446228
> 
> 
> Not clear, but looks like 70085.




But could easily be a 78085 too.

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## Deino

J-16 78632 - 172. Brig + J-16 70095 - 98. Brig

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## Deino

Deino said:


> J-16 78632 - 172. Brig + J-16 70095 - 98. Brig




Again ... 5×J-16 9×J-11BS 3×J-11B 3×Su-30MKK

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## Deino

J-11B 63008 - 19. Brigade

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## lcloo

Interesting, I think this solved the question that has been in my mind for many years. The difference between J11 and J11A (picture as below). From CJDBY.





There were 5 batches of J11/J11A, total number 105.
J-11/11A一共五个批次，105架

Batch 00, 01 and 02 using complete Russian parts are known as J11.
其中用毛熊进口零件组装的00、01、02批次被称为J-11

Batch 03 and 04 are known as J11A.
03、04批次被称为J-11A

Batch 03 and 04 have few imported Russian parts. Most components were made in China, with certain modification on avionics, data link, navigation etc. And many markings and display language had been changed from Russian to Chinese.

03、04批次除了极少数材料还需要从俄罗斯进口之外，大部分机体原材料和毛坯件都立足于国内生产，在生产中还对机上设备与部队的国产地面设备的兼容进行分批改进，例如航管应答机、数据链和导引设备、导航与着陆系统、卫星导航设备等；为了方便中国飞行员和地勤人员的操作，对飞机上的大部分俄文标识和显示数据进行了汉化

http://www.thepaper.cn/newsDetail_forward_1369024


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## Fledgingwings

Why dont PAF buy twin engine Jets for their pilots??


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## Deino

J-11 and its derivates are not for export; that was part of the licence agreement with Russia.



lcloo said:


> Interesting, I think this solved the question that has been in my mind for many years. The difference between J11 and J11A (picture as below). From CJDBY.
> 
> View attachment 449769
> 
> There were 5 batches of J11/J11A, total number 105.
> J-11/11A一共五个批次，105架
> 
> Batch 00, 01 and 02 using complete Russian parts are known as J11.
> 其中用毛熊进口零件组装的00、01、02批次被称为J-11
> 
> Batch 03 and 04 are known as J11A.
> 03、04批次被称为J-11A
> 
> Batch 03 and 04 have few imported Russian parts. Most components were made in China, with certain modification on avionics, data link, navigation etc. And many markings and display language had been changed from Russian to Chinese.
> 
> 03、04批次除了极少数材料还需要从俄罗斯进口之外，大部分机体原材料和毛坯件都立足于国内生产，在生产中还对机上设备与部队的国产地面设备的兼容进行分批改进，例如航管应答机、数据链和导引设备、导航与着陆系统、卫星导航设备等；为了方便中国飞行员和地勤人员的操作，对飞机上的大部分俄文标识和显示数据进行了汉化
> 
> http://www.thepaper.cn/newsDetail_forward_1369024




Interesting, but externally they are the same or is the a clear sign or detail to differ between a J-11 and a J-11A?


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## lcloo

Deino said:


> J-11 and its derivates are not for export; that was part of the licence agreement with Russia.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting, but externally they are the same or is the a clear sign or detail to differ between a J-11 and a J-11A?



I can't make out any external difference, but the posting did mentioned modification on data link and satellite commnunication, landing gear. 

I think the most obvious would be batch number (batch 03 and 04 = J11A) and maintenance instruction (in Chinese characters) painted on the air frame, and may be composite parts, but these need clear high defination photo.


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## Deino

lcloo said:


> ...most obvious would be batch number (batch 03 and 04 = J11A) and maintenance instruction (in Chinese characters) painted on the air frame, ..., but these need clear high defination photo.



Thanks ... but this might be the biggest issue.


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## lcloo

These old birds are still going strong. SU-27UBK two seat conversion fighter, J-11A and J-11A "MLU" (with MAWS on both side of fuselage behind cockpit). 

Photos from recent flight training exercise conducted by an aviation brigade of the air force under the PLA Southern Theater Command on February 8, 2018. (eng.chinamil.com.cn/Photo by Tang Jun)

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## Deino

Finally a clear image of a J-16 in the new low-visibility scheme .... maybe for the Naval Aviation?

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## S10

I actually think that based on recent exercise results, J-10 and J-11 production should cease within 5 years. The only Flanker variant worth further developing is one designed for EW (Electronic Warfare) in support of J-20 and J-31, similar to American EA-18G.

Think about it. J-20 scored at least a dozen "kills" against a mixed force of J-11B and Su-35 supported by KJ-500, while losing only a single plane. The J-20s were carrying Luneburg lens to increase their radar signature already. Anymore resources poured into a program that has already been rendered obsolete is unwise.


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## Genesis

S10 said:


> I actually think that based on recent exercise results, J-10 and J-11 production should cease within 5 years. The only Flanker variant worth further developing is one designed for EW (Electronic Warfare) in support of J-20 and J-31, similar to American EA-18G.
> 
> Think about it. J-20 scored at least a dozen "kills" against a mixed force of J-11B and Su-35 supported by KJ-500, while losing only a single plane. The J-20s were carrying Luneburg lens to increase their radar signature already. Anymore resources poured into a program that has already been rendered obsolete is unwise.


Well, the thing is J-20 isn't ready, would it reach full operation potential in 10 years? Very hard to say. WS-15 still not even tested on a bird. Even if WS-15 is good to go right now, I doubt 10 years is a realistic expectation, all things considered. 

It's one thing for it to do well in games, which it should considering the same people that made J-20 are the same that made the J-10s. However, even America waited for F-22 to enter into any actual missions, and that too in a low intensity capacity.

America's numbers game is still significantly higher, China's J-10 and Flanker series are entering a good place right now, and an overwhelming number of them as support would give China a decisive edge in our immediate neighborhoods.


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## cirr

Deino said:


> Finally a clear image of a J-16 in the new low-visibility scheme .... maybe for the Naval Aviation?
> 
> View attachment 456427



https://weibo.com/tv/v/G5dq83frp?fid=1034:1aa015126230197abfe99a0afb1c746c

J-16s deployed in Chongqing with a PLAAF unit under the Western Theatre Command.

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## siegecrossbow

Genesis said:


> Well, the thing is J-20 isn't ready, would it reach full operation potential in 10 years? Very hard to say. WS-15 still not even tested on a bird. Even if WS-15 is good to go right now, I doubt 10 years is a realistic expectation, all things considered.
> 
> It's one thing for it to do well in games, which it should considering the same people that made J-20 are the same that made the J-10s. However, even America waited for F-22 to enter into any actual missions, and that too in a low intensity capacity.
> 
> America's numbers game is still significantly higher, China's J-10 and Flanker series are entering a good place right now, and an overwhelming number of them as support would give China a decisive edge in our immediate neighborhoods.



A J-20 with even interim engines is way superior than a J-10 or J-16.


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## Deino

Anyone with an idea, from what unit these are from? J-16 + Su-30MKK - unknown unit ???

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## Deino

Su-30MK2 with PL-12 again ...


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/971272646666145792

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## Deino

Deino said:


> Finally a clear image of a J-16 in the new low-visibility scheme .... maybe for the Naval Aviation?








via

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/972073474863767552

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## clarkgap

Deino said:


> View attachment 458455
> 
> 
> via
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/972073474863767552



"空军发布" means PLAAF post.

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## Deino

Thanks ... even if I'm a bit sorry. I had hope these low-viz birds would be for the Naval Aviation.

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## clarkgap

Deino said:


> Thanks ... even if I'm a bit sorry. I had hope these low-viz birds would be for the Naval Aviation.



It is "雾都(Smog City)雄鹰(Eagle)", which means ChongQing's Eagle. The PLAAF 33th Air Division, 98th fighter regiment.


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## Deino

clarkgap said:


> It is "雾都(Smog City)雄鹰(Eagle)", which means ChongQing's Eagle. The PLAAF 33th Air Division, 98th fighter regiment.




And now also confirmed by their serial numbers ...

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## monitor



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## Deino

However "Silent Flanker" is a bit over the top....


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## monitor

*How the Su-27 Became China’s Favorite Fighter Jet*
*The Flanker served as a test platform for later designs*





WIB AIR March 12, 2018 Charlie Gao

China52
The Sukhoi Su-27 Flanker was never planned for export when it was originally developed, unlike its lighter cousin, the MiG-29. However, ever since being approved for export it has been one of the most popular fighters in the Asian region. The first customer for the Su-27 was China, which secured a procurement deal while the Soviet Union still existed. But how did Beijing accomplish this?

The beginning of the Su-27’s export success began with the Sino-Soviet thaw in 1989. During Gorbachev’s visit to China in May 1989, motions were made to reopen Sino-Soviet military trade. This was followed by an interview published in a magazine in September 1989 that stated that there would be no political obstacle to China acquiring MiG-29 fighter aircraft.

In May 1990, a Chinese delegation visited the Soviet Union to discuss the acquisition of advanced aircraft. This delegation saw demonstrations of the MiG-29, Su-27 and various helicopters.

The Soviet handlers attempted to push the MiG-29 onto the Chinese delegation, pointing at the long history of Chinese adoption and adaptation of MiG aircraft. However, after seeing the demonstrations, the Chinese delegation wanted the Su-27. Reasons cited were the larger combat radius of the Su-27, the advanced fly-by-wire system — compared to the MiG-29’s simple hydraulic controls — and the superior performance of the engines in the Su-27 in both raw power and operational life.

This would provide the best platform on which future upgrades could be built, a modern “base” on which the next generation of Chinese tactical aircraft would draw from.

Given the significant Chinese modernization and upgrade programs for the MiG-21 — or J-7 in Chinese service — that were necessitated by the long Sino-Soviet split, the Chinese industrial base has had significant experience modifying and improving Soviet designs.

Chinese leadership probably felt that the Sukhoi’s superlative aerodynamic capabilities and large airframe made it the most suitable for such experimentation and upgrades, compared to the MiG.

*

Above — Chinese museum MiGs in Beijing. Photo via Wikimedia. At top — a Chinese J-11. U.S. Air Force photo*
While the Soviets resisted, the economic troubles of that era probably lead them to greenlight the Chinese procurement of the Su-27. Chinese sources point more to a spirit of brotherly cooperation and a need to make amends following the long period of chilly relations, but an economic incentive seems more likely.

Following negotiations in the winter of 1990, China signed an agreement to purchase 24 Su-27SK and Su-27UBK fighters — K indicating _Kitai_, meaning China. Despite the collapse of the Soviet Union, Pres. Boris Yeltsin continued to honor this arrangement, and the first fighters were delivered on June 27, 1992.

But this was not enough for China. Realizing the dire economic straits Russia faced in the 1990s, China pushed for technology transfer of the Su-27, including the full production line. This, too, was agreed on in 1995. China then began licensed production of the Su-27 as the J-11.

This strategy appears to have paid off in spades for China, as apparently one of the original goals of the Su-27 adoption was to have an advanced “chassis” on which Chinese technology could be adopted and developed.

We can see this in spades in the myriad of versions of the J-11 China has put out in recent years. The J-11B features AESA radars, composite components, Chinese glass cockpits and Chinese engines.

The J-16D represents a Chinese attempt to make an EW aircraft similar to the EA-18G “Growler.” Unlike India, which opened the MMRCA program to find a multi-role fighter aircraft because it deemed its Su-30MKIs as incapable of being true multiroles, the J-11 can employ a wide variety of Chinese ground-attack munitions, including Chinese versions of the American Small Diameter Bomb.

Russian equipment has been steadily replaced, from the oxygen generators to the radar warning receivers.

Despite these advances, China continues to acquire Russian jets, though this is largely in order to acquire technologies in the latest versions of the Flanker, the Su-35. China acquired these aircraft in December 2015. Supposedly, the primary item of interest is the improved engines in these aircraft, following China’s failure to get a license to produce that specific part and its own difficulties in producing clones of the original Su-27SK engines for the J-11.

Regardless, the reasons for China’s adoption of the Su-27 stand — Beijing wanted the top-performing fighter with the best technology from which it could learn, and got it.

_This article originally appeared at _The National Interest_._

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## Deino

Oh no ... via War is boring! What a piece of crap.

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## Avicenna

Deino said:


> Oh no ... via War is boring! What a piece of crap.



What's wrong with the article?


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## Figaro

Avicenna said:


> What's wrong with the article?


Although this article doesn't look too terrible, most "War is Boring" articles pertaining to the PLA (particularly those written by David Axe and Kyle Mizokami) are extremely unreliable and downright biased.

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## Figaro

Any news on the J-16D? It seems like ages since we've gotten an update (apart from a couple photos by oedosoldier). The importance of the EW flanker cannot be understated. It seems apart from the J-16, it's been very quiet at SAC. The J-16D and J-11D seem to have gone underground


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## 帅的一匹

Figaro said:


> Any news on the J-16D? It seems like ages since we've gotten an update (apart from a couple photos by oedosoldier). The importance of the EW flanker cannot be understated. It seems apart from the J-16, it's been very quiet at SAC. The J-16D and J-11D seem to have gone underground


J11b is still under construction.


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## Figaro

wanglaokan said:


> J11b is still under construction.


We have not seen new serials I believe ...


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## Deino

Avicenna said:


> What's wrong with the article?



Just as Figaro noted... and look at the last paragraph 



> ...followingChina’s failure to get a license to produce that specific part and its own difficulties in producing clones of the original Su-27SK engines for the J-11.



China was never trying to copy the AL-31F. They had their issues with the WS-10, but that's long over.

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## lcloo

I think the Chinese flanker family (J-11, J-15, J-16) is in the last leg of further development. The results of J-20 vs J-11 & J-10 in aerial engagements will dawn upon the military central committee members like that of the Gulf wars did in 1980s.

And stealth UACV will gradually take over the strikers (J-16, JH-7A) roles as load carrying capacity advances.

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## Armchair-General

What are the main differences in the air frames of the J-11, J-15 and J-16. And what is the commonality of parts between them.


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## MiG-35-BD

Armchair-General said:


> What are the main differences in the air frames of the J-11, J-15 and J-16. And what is the commonality of parts between them.



J-11 >> Chinese Su-27
J-15 >> Naval
J-16>> Chinese Su-30 MKI type

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## 帅的一匹

MiG-35-BD said:


> J-11 >> Chinese Su-27
> J-15 >> Naval
> J-16>> Chinese Su-30 MKI type


J16 =Chinese Su30 MK2


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## MiG-35-BD

wanglaokan said:


> J16 =Chinese Su30 MK2


I think the J-16 is superior to the MK2. Has a better airframe, considerably better avionics, etc. Thus the MKI


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## Deino

MiG-35-BD said:


> I think the J-16 is superior to the MK2. Has a better airframe, considerably better avionics, etc. Thus the MKI



But that comparison is off since the J-16 uses a modified Su-30MKK's or MK2's airframe featuring NO canards and TVC-engines ... therefore this comparison.

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## MiG-35-BD

Deino said:


> But that comparison is off since the J-16 uses a modified Su-30MKK's or MK2's airframe featuring NO canards and TVC-engines ... therefore this comparison.



True. But I was talking more in terms of capability. Or presumed capability.

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## Ultima Thule

MiG-35-BD said:


> True. But I was talking more in terms of capability. Or presumed capability.


No in the term of Capabilites and mission profile its more closer to F-15E/ F-18/EA-18G



MiG-35-BD said:


> J-11 >> Chinese Su-27
> J-15 >> Naval
> J-16>> Chinese Su-30 MKI type


J-11B >> Su-30
J-16 >> F-15E strike Eagle/EA-18G
J15 >> Su-33/F/A-18/ F/A-18E,F


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## Deino

pakistanipower said:


> ...
> J-11B >> Su-30
> ...




Surely not. The J-11 is a fighther... a decent one but first of all nothing more.

It cannot carry guided air to ground weapons, it has no presicion strike capability the Su-30 undeniable has....

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## Avicenna

Deino said:


> Just as Figaro noted... and look at the last paragraph
> 
> 
> 
> China was never trying to copy the AL-31F. They had their issues with the WS-10, but that's long over.



Yes just re-read the last paragraph. I missed that part. Thanks.


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## ziaulislam

Deino said:


> Just as Figaro noted... and look at the last paragraph
> 
> 
> 
> China was never trying to copy the AL-31F. They had their issues with the WS-10, but that's long over.


so why did china buy su 35..?


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## Figaro

Deino said:


> Just as Figaro noted... and look at the last paragraph
> 
> 
> 
> China was never trying to copy the AL-31F. They had their issues with the WS-10, but that's long over.


I didn't even notice that part after skimming the article. I will retract my earlier statement that this article "doesn't look too terrible." Most "War is Boring", "National Interest", "Popular Mechanics", and "Business Insider" PLA articles are short on facts and plagued with mistruths ... 



ziaulislam said:


> so why did china buy su 35..?


Political considerations (Note that the S-400 and Su-35 deals, which had been in the making for nearly 10 years, was signed shortly after Xi entered office), J-11D program delays (which necessitated purchase of Su-35's for combat ops in SCS), TVC practice for pilots before the Chinese MATV goes online (could also be related to flight control integration with TVC) ...


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## ziaulislam

Figaro said:


> I didn't even notice that part after skimming the article. I will retract my earlier statement that this article "doesn't look too terrible." Most "War is Boring", "National Interest", "Popular Mechanics", and "Business Insider" PLA articles are short on facts and plagued with mistruths ...
> 
> 
> Political considerations (Note that the S-400 and Su-35 deals, which had been in the making for nearly 10 years, was signed shortly after Xi entered office), J-11D program delays (which necessitated purchase of Su-35's for combat ops in SCS), TVC practice for pilots before the Chinese MATV goes online (could also be related to flight control integration with TVC) ...


poltics..okay, butt two squadrons make no sense just because there is some delays in j11 or j10 program, TVC..okay..the commonest inference will be china cant get its engine matured enough


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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

ziaulislam said:


> so why did china buy su 35..?



Su-35 is upgraded version of Su-27. Su-35 used to be called Su-27M.


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## ziaulislam

Figaro said:


> But buying Su-35 has nothing to do with the engines apart from TVC. China can't exactly pluck out the AL-41 engines to put it into their own fighters. The only real difference between Su-35 engines and the WS-10 series is the former has better reliability (which should be obvious, as it is based off a decades old design) and TVC. Everything else is negligible. But buying Su-35's really wouldn't do much to address the engine "maturity" problem


will give china access to newer generation engines, and their maintence



undertakerwwefan said:


> Su-35 is upgraded version of Su-27. Su-35 used to be called Su-27M.


in presence of j11 and j16 why would china buy su35?


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## Ultima Thule

ziaulislam said:


> in presence of j11 and j16 why would china buy su35?


@wanglaokan , @Beast , @Kiss_of_the_Dragon can you clarify Mr @ziaulislam thank you


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## ziaulislam

Figaro said:


> Simple. Because the Su-35 is more advanced than the J-11B (J-11D has delays). The J-16 is there for a different (strike) role as opposed to air superiority missions. The AL-41 is not really a "newer generation engine" as it is based off the AL-31, which China has access to already. I have already told you that an upgraded WS-10 is comparable to the AL-41, with maturity and lack of TVC being the two caveats. There is absolutely nothing China can learn technology-wise from the AL-41 ...


so basically you are suggesting su 35 is too advance for Chinese to built anything similar
advance in what? avionics, radars, ECM, engines..?
isnt china suppose to be ahead of Russia in everything apart from core engine designs..?
and why just few sq, china isnt like india that cannot afford to buy stuff?


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## ziaulislam

Figaro said:


> I never said the Su-35 was "too advanced". All I'm saying is that the Su-35 was purchased to have immediate combat power. The J-11D, which is on the same level as the Su-35, has been delayed either due to testing or shifting priorities. China is ahead of Russian in several of the areas you just mentioned ... but China is behind in fielding TVC, which is a feature of the Su-35. Hence, the purchase of the Su-35 ...
> 
> 
> Why does it make no sense? Let me remind you that Russia was insistent on at least 48 aircraft for the better half of a decade ... but due to crippling sanctions in 2014, they relented to 24 (which made the offer more attractive). And the "commonest inference" is simply wrong; China cannot make up for engine maturity by buying the Su-35. How is the purchase supposed to alleviate this problem in any way, shape, or form? Also, the Taihang engine series has matured considerably over the past two years ... we're seeing them on the J-20, J-10 TVC, and Y-20 ... which makes it less likely for a Su-35 purchase out of engine purposes. I have already given you several answers ... I'm not sure why you find it so difficult to contemplate.


so bottom line..., china for come reason had delayed production of j11D and so china quickly brought su35(after 8 years of negotiations) to cover that crisis..


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## Figaro

ziaulislam said:


> so bottom line..., china for come reason had delayed production of j11D and so china quickly brought su35(after 8 years of negotiations) to cover that crisis..


First, China did not "delay" production of the J-11D. All we know is that there are delays to the program ... not surprising given it's SAC ... and as a result made an immediate purchase of the Su-35 more enticing. Since you seem to misconstrue my points, I will sum up the reasons for the purchase for you ... 

Political Atmosphere - In 2015, China and Russia were pursing cozier diplomatic relations due to Xi's ascension to power and Russia's isolation from the West. Previously deals (i.e. Su-35, S-400), which had been stalled for years, were signed in a very short time span. Political expediency, I believe, ultimately led to the conclusion of the deal (which surprised many insiders in the PLAAF) ... 
Delay of the J-11D - Once again, there were reported delays in the J-11D program for uncertain reasons. As the Su-35 was superior to the J-11B, a sensible way to compensate for this shortfall was to purchase them in order to gain immediate combat capability. Given that the PLAAF has already released footage of the Su-35 practicing in the SCS, it seems likely that they were needed urgently to make up for the J-11D delay 
TVC - China has for a long time shown interest in TVC, making several prototypes and conducting extensive research. At the end of last year, we even saw a special 3D TVC equipped WS-10X on a J-10B/C prototype for testing. However, this is a category where China lacks behind Russia; the latter has extensive experience with TVC. Hence, purchasing a small squadron of Su-35s is one logical way to train pilots to associate themselves with TVC before the Chinese version is ready (formulate combat strategies). Also, I'd bet the Chinese want to optimize integration of TVC to FCS (flight control systems), which can be done through the Su-35. 
At the end of the day, only the PLAAF knows the real reason for the purchase. But I believe the points I made are pretty accurate when it comes to the purchase ... the Su-35 deal was probably a combination of the above 3 factors, with politics being the largest.

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## Deino

ziaulislam said:


> will give china access to newer generation engines, and their maintence




IMO most of all a political deal but technically and tactically the PLAAF can immediately explore a TVC's operational use and integration into a FCS.

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## 星海军事

Figaro said:


> First, China did not "delay" production of the J-11D. All we know is that there are delays to the program ... not surprising given it's SAC ... and as a result made an immediate purchase of the Su-35 more enticing. Since you seem to misconstrue my points, I will sum up the reasons for the purchase for you ...



It takes around four years for J-16 to finish its test flights and J-11D was first flown in 2015. Maybe we just need to wait.

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## Akasa

星海军事 said:


> It takes around four years for J-16 to finish its test flights and J-11D was first flown in 2015. Maybe we just need to wait.



Is there indication that the J-11D program is still alive? We had a photo of a J-11D from February (or January?) 2018 but nothing so far.

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## 帅的一匹

pakistanipower said:


> @wanglaokan , @Beast , @Kiss_of_the_Dragon can you clarify Mr @ziaulislam thank you


Simple question. Because we can't get F135, so we have to go for 117s. That will help us understand where we are standing right now.


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## Figaro

wanglaokan said:


> Simple question. Because we can't get F135, so we have to go for 117s. That will help us understand where we are standing right now.


I really don’t understand what you mean here. Do you think China can really learn anything from the 117S besides TVC? As I have already mentioned earlier, an upgraded WS-10 is equivalent to the 117S except for TVC and maturity. AFAIK, the Chinese aren’t exactly plucking 117S engines out to place in their J-20 or performing reverse engineering ... there is little the 117S can do for the WS-10 program apart from its TVC features. If they really wanted the 117S engines, they could simply order them by batch ... rather than ordering whole fighter systems.



Akasa said:


> Is there indication that the J-11D program is still alive? We had a photo of a J-11D from February (or January?) 2018 but nothing so far.


Just because we don’t have many reports does not mean the program is dead. Same with the J-16D. I suspect it is due to a stricter Chinese national security policy, which has drastically limited the number of pictures ...

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## 帅的一匹

Figaro said:


> I really don’t understand what you mean here. Do you think China can really learn anything from the 117S besides TVC? As I have already mentioned earlier, an upgraded WS-10 is equivalent to the 117S except for TVC and maturity. AFAIK, the Chinese aren’t exactly plucking 117S engines out to place in their J-20 or performing reverse engineering ... there is little the 117S can do for the WS-10 program apart from its TVC features. If they really wanted the 117S engines, they could simply order them by batch ... rather than ordering whole fighter systems.
> 
> 
> Just because we don’t have many reports does not mean the program is dead. Same with the J-16D. I suspect it is due to a stricter Chinese national security policy, which has drastically limited the number of pictures ...


You don't understand what I mean. How do you know how good you are if you don't have someone to be your benchmark?


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## Deino

J-16 cockpit 







http://www.mod.gov.cn/power/2018-03/19/content_4807150.htm

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## 帅的一匹



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## JSCh

A pilot and a maintenance man assigned to an aviation brigade of the air force under the PLA Western Theater Command perform checks inside the cockpit of a J-16 fighter jet prior to a flight training exercise in southwestern China's Chongqing Municipality on March 6, 2018. (eng.chinamil.com.cn/Photo by Liu Chang and Liu Yinghua)

More --> J-16 fighter jets fly in two-ship formation - China Military



A group of J-11 fighter jets attached to an aviation brigade of the air force under the PLA Eastern Theater Command fly in formation over the snow-covered mountains during a flight training exercise on March 19, 2018. (eng.chinamil.com.cn/Photo by Zhang Haishen and Cheng Guang)

J-11 fighter jets fly over plateau area - China Military

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## JSCh

Posted by PLAAF weibo

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## Deino

Indeed impressive... this was most likely from a similar series of images from December 2017 but this is new to me.


----------



## lcloo

SU-35 patrolling South China Sea few days ago..

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## JSCh

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/977744732875976705

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## Deino

lcloo said:


> SU-35 patrolling South China Sea few days ago..
> 
> View attachment 461612
> View attachment 461613
> View attachment 461614




What pod is this ?

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## cirr

Rumours have it that "supermaterials" will be used extensively to increase the J-16's stealthiness.

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## Akasa

cirr said:


> Rumours have it that "supermaterials" will be used extensively to increase the J-16's stealthiness.



Will the J-15B have the same applications when it debuts in late 2019?


----------



## LKJ86

PLANAF Su-30MKK2 and KH31

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## LKJ86

J-16

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## Deino

Looks like a Batch 03 aircraft ...

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## Deino

J-16

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## LKJ86

J-16

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## LKJ86

Su-30MKK

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## LKJ86

Su-30MKK2

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> J-16
> View attachment 464482




Interesting to see the double or twin-pylon adapters on the J-16 too.


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## LKJ86

J-11B

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## clarkgap

Deino said:


> Interesting to see the double or twin-pylon adapters on the J-16 too.



The Chinese Flanker family - J-11, J-16 ... Su-27SK/UBK, Su-30MKK

I think you had posted an image about twin-pylon adapters on the J-16.


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## LKJ86

Su-30MKK

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## clarkgap

Finally:
@Deino

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## Deino

Well; indeed an impressive image showing the first J-15S prototype 561 cn. 0001

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## Deino

The very first. both the serial 561 and cn. 0001 say that.

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## Figaro

Deino said:


> The very first. both the serial 561 and cn. 0001 say that.


So is it going into service? Or when is production going to start?


----------



## Akasa

Figaro said:


> So is it going into service? Or when is production going to start?



It'll probably be a testbed for a J-15S-derived fighter like the J-15D. So far the consensus is that the J-15S itself will not enter service.


----------



## cirr

2nd PLAAF unit under the Eastern Thearter Command receives J-16s.

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## Deino

cirr said:


> 2nd PLAAF unit under the Eastern Thearter Command receives J-16s.



Really? Former 2nd Division already received J-10B for the 5th Brigade, flies the Su-35 in the 6th Brigade, which also received a few Su-30MKK ... so are these J-16s for the 4th Brigade?


----------



## cirr

Deino said:


> Really? Former 2nd Division already received J-10B for the 5th Brigade, flies the Su-35 in the 6th Brigade, which also received a few Su-30MKK ... so are these J-16s for the 4th Brigade?



The 40th "Dufengrui" brigade.

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## Deino

cirr said:


> The 40th "Dufengrui" brigade.



Ok, THANKS... so it was by individual number the "2nd Air Division" but simpyl the second unit within the Southern TC.

But what does "Dufengrui" brigade means?

Deino


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## LKJ86

Su-30MKK2

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## LKJ86

J-16

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## yusheng

chinese EA18G

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## LKJ86



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## HRK

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 469036


J-16 ...??


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## LKJ86

HRK said:


> J-16 ...??


Yes

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## LKJ86

PLAAF
2018.4.24







https://m.weibo.cn/5996312730/4233011072961529

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## cirr

The 7th


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## LKJ86

Su-30MKK2

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## yusheng



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## 帅的一匹

The cost of J16 for PLAAF is 60 millions USD.


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## LKJ86

wanglaokan said:


> The cost of J16 for PLAAF is 60 millions USD.


You mean this?





---

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## Ultima Thule

LKJ86 said:


> You mean this?
> View attachment 469772
> 
> 
> ---
> View attachment 469773
> View attachment 469774
> View attachment 469775


What analog dials on J-16's cockpit


----------



## LKJ86

pakistanipower said:


> What analog dials on J-16's cockpit


You can find it from the MV:https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/f62k1naNHUSL8jR92gL4tw


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## Ultima Thule

LKJ86 said:


> You can find it from the MV:https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/f62k1naNHUSL8jR92gL4tw


Nno i mean, i am asking why analog dials on J-16 why not J-16 have full digital cockpit


----------



## LKJ86

pakistanipower said:


> Nno i mean, i am asking why analog dials on J-16 why not J-16 have full digital cockpit


It is just a cockpit simulator, not the same one on J-16.


----------



## Ultima Thule

LKJ86 said:


> It is just a cockpit simulator, not the same one one J-16.


 but simulator is a mirror image of operational jet cockpit, so your logic is bogus


----------



## LKJ86

pakistanipower said:


> but simulator is a mirror image of operational jet cockpit, so your logic is bogus


No, it depends on your purpose.


----------



## LKJ86

https://m.weibo.cn/5307012945/4233916363216974

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## samsara

*J-16D EW* aircraft with wingtip ESM/ELINT pods via @cjdby_net

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/814737921781571590

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## Deino

samsara said:


> *J-16D EW* aircraft with wingtip ESM/ELINT pods via @cjdby_net
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/814737921781571590




But these are all images from late December 2016. Would be interesting to know what's the current status.


----------



## yusheng

chinese EG18
1. can be skid takeoff, and also can be ejected take off.
The 2. airspeed tube is gone and the radar estimate is also changed.
3. the optoelectronic ball is gone and the battlefield support is changed.
4. increase the refueling equipment on the left side of the cockpit.
The deceleration plate on the back of the 5. machine seems to have changed.
The 6. electronic war tanks are different from the annihilate 16.
7. the ratio and position of the material are different.
8. head. Border. Front flap to add new avionics.
9. the whole system is fully improved to adapt to the marine environment.
10. increase wing blade, prevent wingtip stall and reduce drag.

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## Akasa

yusheng said:


> chinese EG18
> 1. can be skid takeoff, and also can be ejected take off.
> The 2. airspeed tube is gone and the radar estimate is also changed.
> 3. the optoelectronic ball is gone and the battlefield support is changed.
> 4. increase the refueling equipment on the left side of the cockpit.
> The deceleration plate on the back of the 5. machine seems to have changed.
> The 6. electronic war tanks are different from the annihilate 16.
> 7. the ratio and position of the material are different.
> 8. head. Border. Front flap to add new avionics.
> 9. the whole system is fully improved to adapt to the marine environment.
> 10. increase wing blade, prevent wingtip stall and reduce drag.
> View attachment 471105
> View attachment 471106
> View attachment 471107
> View attachment 471108
> View attachment 471109



How can it be CATOBAR-compatible when it doesn't have the necessary landing gear to do so? Are the gears interchangeable?


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## yusheng

Akasa said:


> How can it be CATOBAR-compatible when it doesn't have the necessary landing gear to do so? Are the gears interchangeable?


Tell me your analysis “it doesn't have the gear to do so" then i give you answer

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## Akasa

yusheng said:


> Tell me your analysis “it doesn't have the gear to do so" then i give you answer



Take a look at the catapult-compatible landing gear on the J-15T, Rafale, or F-35C, and compare them to the one on the J-15D. The J-15D's gears do not have the reinforcements necessary to handle the stresses of a catapult.


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## yusheng

Akasa said:


> Take a look at the catapult-compatible landing gear on the J-15T, Rafale, or F-35C, and compare them to the one on the J-15D. The J-15D's gears do not have the reinforcements necessary to handle the stresses of a catapult.



So, you think this is the final work of type j15d? there is j15dt too. there are many pictures unpublished.

patient, don't rush to the conclusion.

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## Akasa

yusheng said:


> So, you think this is the final work of type j15d? there is j15dt too. there are many pictures unpublished.
> 
> patient, don't rush to the conclusion.



I'm just refuting the OP's claim that it can be launched from both CATOBAR and STOBAR carriers. Current photographs suggest that it cannot.


----------



## lcloo

Akasa said:


> I'm just refuting the OP's claim that it can be launched from both CATOBAR and STOBAR carriers. Current photographs suggest that it cannot.


To refute a reputable poster (yes, he is respectable member in CJDBY), you have to dig up engineering data instead of based on a photograph. Rushing in to dispute to satisfy the urge to discredit and win onto others is not commendable.

草根设计师-CAD is refering to capabilities of this variant, not just this particular unit of proto-type.

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## Akasa

lcloo said:


> To refute a reputable poster (yes, he is respectable member in CJDBY), you have to dig up engineering data instead of based on a photograph. Rushing in to dispute to satisfy the urge to discredit and win onto others is not commendable.
> 
> 草根设计师-CAD is refering to capabilities of this variant, not just this particular unit of proto-type.



Fine, it's possible that the model might get reinforced landing gears on later prototypes. Until then, it's better to hold off on any conclusions.


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## 帅的一匹

SAC is doing a great job in this one.

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## LKJ86

wanglaokan said:


> SAC is doing a great job in this one.
> 
> View attachment 471750


J-11D？？？

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## Deino

wanglaokan said:


> SAC is doing a great job in this one.
> 
> View attachment 471750



But that's only a CG!

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

J-11BS

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## yusheng

http://p.weibo.com/show/channerWbH5/1034:18518c708bc3b95c832154500d1efcae

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## LKJ86

http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2018-05/09/content_8027123.htm





https://m.weibo.cn/1971538745/4237801090629107

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## LKJ86

J-16

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## 帅的一匹

How many WS10 engines are flying with J15/J11/J16 series?


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## LKJ86



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## yusheng

video：

https://view.inews.qq.com/a/20180507V0N6DT00?uid=&cur_vid=v0646bmn6oe


----------



## beijingwalker



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## LKJ86

2018.5.11

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## LKJ86



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## 帅的一匹

拍照水平还是老样子，土鳖还是土鳖。


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## LKJ86

J-16

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## JSCh

*J-16 fighter jets take off in formation*
Editor：Huang Panyue Time：2018-05-16



A J-16 fighter jet attached to an aviation brigade of the air force under the PLA Western Theater Command takes off for a sortie during a flight training exercise on May 15, 2018. (eng.chinamil.com.cn/Photo by Mu Keshuang)


Three J-16 fighter jets attached to an aviation brigade of the air force under the PLA Western Theater Command fly in formation during a flight training exercise on May 15, 2018. (eng.chinamil.com.cn/Photo by Mu Keshuang)

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## yusheng

http://t.cn/R3OSURh?m=4240815917675665&u=5721260193

Super low altitude Valley flight, sea penetration assault, flying to a minimum height of 30 meters! Challenge flight limit

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## LKJ86



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## 帅的一匹

Su27 family is really sexy, I still get addicted to it now.

Lot more good looking than F15.

And J16 is one of the most handsome step brother of Su30.

We call them 'democratic' Chinese Sukhoi.


----------



## LKJ86

Su-30MKK2 & PL-12

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## 帅的一匹

Su35 will have PL12 and PL15 as well.

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## Deino

wanglaokan said:


> Su35 will have PL12 and PL15 as well.




Any proof for that?
So far it seems as if they are only armed with Russian AAMs and I don't think they will be happy to present the radar's source codes to integrate Chinese ones ... at least not for free.

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## 帅的一匹

Deino said:


> Any proof for that?
> So far it seems as if they are only armed with Russian AAMs and I don't think they will be happy to present the radar's source codes to integrate Chinese ones ... at least not for free.


RVV-S and RVV-M is not PLAAF want, the update to Domestic weapon was prescribed in the contract.


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## Deino

wanglaokan said:


> RVV-S and RVV-M is not PLAAF want, the update to Domestic weapon was prescribed in the contract.




Again ... please give proof of that!


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## LKJ86



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## Figaro

wanglaokan said:


> RVV-S and RVV-M is not PLAAF want, the update to Domestic weapon was prescribed in the contract.


The Su-35 cannot integrate Chinese weapons systems. Simple. Otherwise, they would've long ditched the R-77s. The aircraft is not licensed produced ...


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## 帅的一匹

Figaro said:


> The Su-35 cannot integrate Chinese weapons systems. Simple. Otherwise, they would've long ditched the R-77s. The aircraft is not licensed produced ...


Su35 is a excellent platform itself，but the weapon it carry is not good enough. PL15 is the must.



Deino said:


> Again ... please give proof of that!


Now Su30MKK carry PL12, Su35 won't be an exception. A fighter can't carry domestic ammunition is a total waste from PLAAF point of view.

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## LKJ86

wanglaokan said:


> Su35 is a excellent platform itself，but the weapon it carry is not good enough. PL15 is the must.


Hope there are no more orders for Su-35.

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## 帅的一匹

As I said Su35 is not a must for PLAAF, we have lots of bargain chips to pressure Russian accepting our conditions.



LKJ86 said:


> Hope there are no more orders for Su-35.


Su35 is a perfect proxy to patrol in SCS. Swaggering and intimidating .

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## LKJ86

wanglaokan said:


> As I said Su35 is not a must for PLAAF, we have lots of bargain chips to pressure Russian accepting our conditions.
> 
> 
> Su35 is a perfect proxy to patrol in SCS. Swaggering and intimidating .


SAC should do a better job. And J-11D should replace.

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/v9qaNnWGNOJOk61sn7K9Jw

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

J-16 & YJ-88










https://m.weibo.cn/2859620437/4246600341560246

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## Deino

Nice ... the pod seems to be a KG700 ECM?


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## Deino

Is this a new targeting pod or the already known KG700 ECM pod?

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## LKJ86

Su-30MKK

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Su-30MKK
2018.5.12

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## LKJ86

J-11BSH



















https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/uwsS4HMxWVL_q4tPnI9xYA

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## LKJ86



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## 帅的一匹

pilots in the pictue need to keep fit


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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

J-11

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## LKJ86

J-16

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> J-16
> View attachment 482739






__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1012225812400082945

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## LKJ86



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## 帅的一匹

LKJ86 said:


> J-16
> View attachment 482739


democracy paint


----------



## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## Deino

Su-30MKK and J-16 

Any idea what is the event they celebrate or even where this is?


----------



## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

2018/7/13

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

2018/7/17

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 487008


A winner?


----------



## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

J-16 & PL-10
2018/7/17

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> J-16 & PL-10
> 2018/7/17
> View attachment 487315
> View attachment 487316




If these are indeed "A J-16 fighter jet attached to an aviation brigade of the air force under the PLA Eastern Theater Command taxis on the runway before takeoff for a flight training exercise on July 17, 2018" ... then they are most likely from the 40th Brigade? ... or am I wrong?
And they are now in low visibility too 


Deino


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## LKJ86

Su-30MKK2




https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/aPGV0S8nMlPkvja7BZ96vA

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> J-16 & PL-10
> 2018/7/17
> View attachment 487315
> View attachment 487316




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1020926621442871297

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

2018.7.21

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## LKJ86

2018.7.25


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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

J-16

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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1023069645287219201

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## LKJ86

2018.7.27

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

J-11BSH

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## LKJ86



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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 490112
> View attachment 490113
> View attachment 490114
> View attachment 490115



That made my day !!!!! 

Finally a clear image of a 7th Brigade J-16.

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## LKJ86



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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1025434924457779200

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## 帅的一匹



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## UKBengali

All these planes are using WS-10A engines.

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## LKJ86




----------



## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1026487210244235264


----------



## LKJ86



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## Deino

Deino said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1025434924457779200




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1026854024199503873

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## LKJ86



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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 491008



Yepp ...see #1141


----------



## LKJ86

https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/_c1Vq-JWZGCBDIwR0HOQjw

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86




----------



## j20blackdragon

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 490626



Hold on, so now the J-11A produces a blue flame afterburner?






The J-11A is from the early 2000s from kits supplied by Russia. This plane is guaranteed to use the older AL-31F under normal circumstances.

"The first two J-11s rolled out in December 1998 using the kit supplied by KnAAPO but were reported to have suffered QC problems. An annual production rate between 15 and 20 was achieved by 2003. A total of 95 kits were delivered from KnAAPO by summer 2004."
http://chinese-military-aviation.blogspot.com/p/fighters-ii.html

Photographic examples...

Su-27P using the older *AL-31F* produces an orange flame afterburner.





Su-27SM3 (produced in limited numbers) using the newer *AL-31FM1* produces a blue flame afterburner.





Which engine is the J-11A using?!


----------



## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 491580




It is known that the J-11BH flown by the Naval Aviation are Batch 03 aircraft, but I've never seen this unique red/yellow stripe ... this is so far only common to the J-15.

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## lcloo

j20blackdragon said:


> Hold on, so now the J-11A produces a blue flame afterburner?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The J-11A is from the early 2000s from kits supplied by Russia. This plane is guaranteed to use the older AL-31F under normal circumstances.
> 
> "The first two J-11s rolled out in December 1998 using the kit supplied by KnAAPO but were reported to have suffered QC problems. An annual production rate between 15 and 20 was achieved by 2003. A total of 95 kits were delivered from KnAAPO by summer 2004."
> http://chinese-military-aviation.blogspot.com/p/fighters-ii.html
> 
> Photographic examples...
> 
> Su-27P using the older *AL-31F* produces an orange flame afterburner.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Su-27SM3 (produced in limited numbers) using the newer *AL-31FM1* produces a blue flame afterburner.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Which engine is the J-11A using?!


Flame color is result of many variables, mainly the chemical property of the fuel + chemical addictives being burned. A same aircraft engine can produced different colored flames due to different types of fuel, addictives and as well as the temperature of jet exhaust, and the speed of jet exhaust flow may also be a factor.

The type of metal alloy used in making the after burner noozzle can also be a factor too.

(I used to play with burning chemicals like sulphur, magnesium etc in chemistry lab during high school, and report our observation on the color of flames as part of school work.)

Thus we can not just use the color of jet exhaust as a single criteria to judge the type of engine.

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86




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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

August 17, 2018

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## Deino

Peace Mission 2018


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1031790694371930112

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

J-16

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## LKJ86

https://m.weibo.cn/1740979351/4276826685543205

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 494200
> 
> https://m.weibo.cn/1740979351/4276826685543205




Two J-11Ds??


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## LKJ86

Deino said:


> Two J-11Ds??


Maybe.


----------



## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> Maybe.



But the radome looks very much black to me ... so eventually only J-11Bs.


----------



## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/iZm27dKFG3pvu8ONyiYIAA


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## LKJ86

Su-30MKK2 & PL-8 PL-12


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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> Su-30MKK2 & PL-8 PL-12
> View attachment 495526




Yes ... finally! However I'm surprised that so far we've only seen naval Aviation MK2's with local AAMs.


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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

J-16

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## LKJ86

Su-30MKK



















https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/cocjdZR4Kqqwde4hie7Otw

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## LKJ86

J-16

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> J-16
> View attachment 496629
> View attachment 496630
> View attachment 496631
> View attachment 496632
> View attachment 496633
> View attachment 496634
> View attachment 496635
> View attachment 496636
> View attachment 496637
> View attachment 496638
> View attachment 496639
> View attachment 496640
> View attachment 496641
> View attachment 496642
> View attachment 496643
> View attachment 496644
> View attachment 496645
> View attachment 496646
> View attachment 496647
> View attachment 496648




So J-16 batch 04 confirmed.

And allegedly taken at Qiqihar, which would correspond to the 3rd Air Brigade.


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## LKJ86

https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/ma26Gjlu00xDur20XuvUTQ

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## LKJ86



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## gambit

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 496708
> View attachment 496709
> View attachment 496710
> View attachment 496711
> View attachment 496712
> View attachment 496713
> View attachment 496714
> 
> https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/ma26Gjlu00xDur20XuvUTQ


This is a poorly staged PR event.

You do not wear your utility cap on the flightline. It increases the odds of FOD.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_object_damage


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## LKJ86

J-11BS

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## LKJ86

J-11BSH

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

J-11BS

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

J-16

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## LKJ86



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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 498462




What's the base?


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## Akasa

Deino said:


> What's the base?



Chongqing - Baishiyi

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86




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## LKJ86

J-11BS

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

The navy version of J-16 ?

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> The navy version of J-16 ?
> View attachment 499399



So a J-16H? 

Would be interesting to know, what they ps'ed out on the intake and under the cockpit ... I'm sure it's a hint for its naval application.


----------



## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

J-11B

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

J-11BH/BSH

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## LKJ86

Su-30MKK2








































https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/32umngeo_0rt1pyr15uFPQ

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86




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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 501096



What store or missile is this? It does not look like y PL-12 or even PL-15?


----------



## LKJ86

Deino said:


> What store or missile is this? It does not look like y PL-12 or even PL-15?


No, it is a bomb.

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> No, it is a bomb.



What kind of bomb is it?


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## LKJ86

J-11B

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86




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## LKJ86

J-16

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> J-16
> View attachment 502182



Naval Aviation??


----------



## cirr

A pair of J-11Ds?

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## Akasa

cirr said:


> A pair of J-11Ds?
> 
> View attachment 503060



Black radomes. They're J-11Bs.


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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

J-11B

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## AMG_12

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 504369
> View attachment 504370
> View attachment 504371
> View attachment 504372
> View attachment 504373
> View attachment 504374
> View attachment 504375
> View attachment 504376


That rocket salvo is quite destructive. Interestingly most PLAAF pilots train with unguided rockets on different platforms, which IMO drastically improves their A2G abilities with unguided munitions and piloting skills. PAF pilots too train with low-flying strafing runs .


----------



## LKJ86

Game.Invade said:


> Interestingly most PLAAF pilots train with unguided rockets on different platforms, which IMO drastically improves their A2G abilities with unguided munitions and piloting skills.


It is mainly for improving their piloting skills with a very low cost.

You can not always launch an expensive missile during a normal training.

Besides, you cannot expect such a heavy fighter will use the unguided rockets for an A2G mission during a war.


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## LKJ86



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## cirr

The 4th batch of J-16s for the 4th J-16 brigade

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## LKJ86




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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Old pics

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

J-11BH

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Su-30MKK2

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

September 28, 2018

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## LKJ86

Su-30MKK2

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

J-11B/BS

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## LKJ86

J-11BS

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

J-16

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## LKJ86

J-16 & PL-10 PL-15

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## LKJ86

USAF's "J-11B/BS"

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## LKJ86

J-11

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## Akasa

LKJ86 said:


> USAF's "J-11B/BS"
> View attachment 519465
> View attachment 519466



Are you sure? Wouldn't it be more appropriate to use F-15s to simulate J-11Bs?


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## LKJ86

J-11B

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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1061460148106002432But the serial number must be faked since this would be aircraft no. 00


----------



## LKJ86

Su-30MKK2

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## LKJ86

Su-30MKK2 & IL-78
https://m.weibo.cn/2050309667/4308411673629939


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## cirr

J-11B -> J-11D?


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## LKJ86

cirr said:


> J-11B -> J-11D?
> 
> View attachment 522452


https://m.weibo.cn/2859620437/4310306487824620

https://m.weibo.cn/2859620437/4310289686049867

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## Deino

cirr said:


> J-11B -> J-11D?
> 
> View attachment 522452




But surely not the J-11D's radome....


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## Deino

Tested were allegedly the *TG-250* and the *CS/BBD3* laser-guided bomb, ... the TG-250 is quite well known, but do we have an image of the CS/BBD3?


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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

The video of J-11B: https://m.weibo.cn/5293335778/4311974646480779

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## LKJ86

Su-30MKK2 & PL-8 PL-12

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## LKJ86



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## cirr

Production code 0320. No. 20, Batch 3

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## LKJ86

J-16

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## Avicenna

J-16 looks gorgeous in that low viz grey.

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## LKJ86

J-16

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## LKJ86

J-11BSH

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## LKJ86

J-11BS


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## LKJ86

J-11BS


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## LKJ86

J-11B & J-11BS

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## LKJ86

J-11B


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## LKJ86

The stories about the manufacture of J-11:
https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/Sq7rD0RSYqFHcUqyGtBzIQ

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## LKJ86

Su-27UBK

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## LKJ86

J-11B

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

J-11B

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## LKJ86

Su-30MKK

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## LKJ86

J-11B

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## LKJ86

Su-27SK/J-11

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## LKJ86

J-11BS

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

J-16

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## LKJ86

Su-30MKK

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## LKJ86

J-11BH

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## LKJ86

J-11BS

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## LKJ86

J-16

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## LKJ86

J-11B J-11BS

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## LKJ86

J-16

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> J-16
> View attachment 529858




With a light grey radome? ... for naval aviation?


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## LKJ86

J-16

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## Deino

Deino said:


> With a light grey radome? ... for naval aviation?




Huitong seems to agree...

http://chinese-military-aviation.blogspot.com/p/attack-aircraft.html?m=1#J-16

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## LKJ86

J-16

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## LKJ86

Su-30MKK

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## LKJ86

J-11BS

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## LKJ86



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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1080753869527965698

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## LKJ86

J-11BS

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

J-11BS

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## LKJ86

J-16

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> J-16
> View attachment 530857




The same image already posted on 20180930


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## Deino



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## cirr

I would like to know what progress 601 have made on J-16B.

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## LKJ86

J-16

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## LKJ86

Su-30MKK2

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## LKJ86

J-11

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## LKJ86

J-11BSH

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## LKJ86

J-11B

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## LKJ86

Su-30MKK

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## LKJ86

J-11B J-11BS

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## LKJ86

J-11B

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## LKJ86

Su-30MKK

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Su-30MKK

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## LKJ86

J-16

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## LKJ86

Su-27UBK

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Su-30MKK2

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## LKJ86

Deino said:


> View attachment 530974

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## LKJ86

J-11BH

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## LKJ86

J-11BSH

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## LKJ86

J-16

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

J-11B

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

J-16

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## LKJ86



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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 535710



Interesting image; I've never seen a short-range IR-guided AAM on an inner wing pylon before.


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## LKJ86

J-16

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

J-11BSH

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## rashid.sarwar

Can anyone share pictures of any J series plane, heavy loaded, fully loaded, thanks


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## LKJ86



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## Oracle

*J-16 fighter jet stealth-capable, able to carry all types of Chinese air-to-surface weapons*






A J-16 fighter jet attached to an aviation brigade of the air force under the PLA Western Theater Command sits on the parking apron while receiving power-on inspections prior to a flight training exercise in southwestern China's Chongqing Municipality on March 6, 2018. Photo: eng.chinamil.com.cn



China's multi-role fighter jet the J-16 is now covered by a coating that can provide near stealth capability and the jet is now confirmed to be able to carry all types of air-to-surface weapons in precision strikes, China's State broadcaster revealed on Monday.

An aviation brigade under the People's Liberation Army (PLA) Air Force conducted day and night mock battle exercises with J-16s in late January, reported China Central Television (CCTV).

Brigade commander Jiang Jiaji, the first pilot to win the PLA's Golden Helmet competition three times, told CCTV at the exercise that the silver-gray painting covering the J-16 is a kind of cloaking coating that gives the warplane a certain stealth capability, making it nearly invisible to the naked eye and electromagnetic devices.

Fu Qianshao, a Chinese air defense expert, told the Global Times on Tuesday that the aerodynamic design of the J-16 stresses maneuverability rather than stealth, but the coating can make it more difficult to detect.

The stealth coating can reduce detection of the J-16 by radar, Fu said. The jet's camouflaged coloring makes the aircraft blend into the sky and sea, so that the enemy will only recognize it at close range, giving it a huge advantage in combat.

Jiang also revealed that all types of Chinese air-to-surface weapons currently in service with the PLA can be installed on the J-16.

This means the J-16 can use a wide collection of air-to-ground missiles, bombs and anti-ship missiles, Fu said, noting that the multi-role fighter jet can carry several tons of munitions and launch multiple waves of attack before it runs out of ammunition.

The J-16 is reportedly capable of carrying at least eight tons of weapons.

Although the J-20 is China's more advanced fighter jet, the PLA Air Force still needs the J-16 as the two types of fighter jets can complement each other, analysts noted.

The J-20 can use its stealth capability to destroy hostile anti-air installations and win aerial superiority first but it cannot carry as many weapons as the J-16, because the J-20 hides its weapons in smaller weapon bays to ensure stealth capability, Fu said.

The J-16 can follow up a J-20 attack and clean away surface targets with its missiles and bombs, Fu said.

The J-16 is a twin-engine, twin-seat multi-role fighter jet that is also capable of air-to-air combat. It made its debut during the Army Day parade on July 30, 2017 at the Zhurihe military training base in North China's Inner Mongolia Autonomous Region, the Xinhua News Agency reported.







Source : http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1137399.shtml

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## IceCold

This is the kind of JET PAF should be looking at for deep strikes within Indian territory and this will give us a huge boost in naval warfare as well keeping the IN much away. @MastanKhan

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## Pakhtoon yum

IceCold said:


> This is the kind of JET PAF should be looking at for deep strikes within Indian territory and this will give us a huge boost in naval warfare as well keeping the IN much away. @MastanKhan


The navy should have it's own airforce, independent from the PAF. This will provide relief to the PAF and increase the strength of both the navy and the army in general. Considering our economic standings, for now 2-3 squadrons should be more then enough. Should be called PNAF


----------



## Maxpane

Pakhtoon yum said:


> The navy should have it's own airforce, independent from the PAF. This will provide relief to the PAF and increase the strength of both the navy and the army in general. Considering our economic standings, for now 2-3 squadrons should be more then enough. Should be called PNAF


agree sir

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## IceCold

Pakhtoon yum said:


> The navy should have it's own airforce, independent from the PAF. This will provide relief to the PAF and increase the strength of both the navy and the army in general. Considering our economic standings, for now 2-3 squadrons should be more then enough. Should be called PNAF


PAF will have strong disagreement over it however if PN can fly the Orients, the Z-9 and sea king helis, than they sure can operate a squadron or two of their own.

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## 帅的一匹



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## IceCold

wanglaokan said:


> View attachment 536101



Which engines are these?


----------



## 帅的一匹

IceCold said:


> Which engines are these?


WS10 engine.

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## IceCold

wanglaokan said:


> WS10 engine.


So than these can be exported without getting any approval from Russia.

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## 帅的一匹

IceCold said:


> So than these can be exported without getting any approval from Russia.


technically, its can be exported without any string.

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## LKJ86

IceCold said:


> So than these can be exported without getting any approval from Russia.


J-11B, J-11BS, and J-16 all use WS-10 engines.

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## Deino

wanglaokan said:


> technically, its can be exported without any string.




That's wrong ... surely China can export them if they want but that would anyway be a clear break of the licence agreement , which strictly excluded any export to third countries. 

Therefore the question on export or no export was never related to the WS-10 even if an export without engines would have been impossible. Legally it is still forbidden even if some dreamers - especially Pakistani fans - still think and post the opposite. In essence it is the question on will China break the original contract or not,



LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 535668



Would be interesting to know, if the J-16 could carry even two AAMs on an adapter similar to these twin-pylon adapter usually used for rocket pods.


----------



## LKJ86

J-11B J-11BS

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## Pakhtoon yum

IceCold said:


> PAF will have strong disagreement over it however if PN can fly the Orients, the Z-9 and sea king helis, than they sure can operate a squadron or two of their own.


PAF will let it happen or be hanged for treason.



Maxpane said:


> agree sir


It would be a very potent and powerful decision if made on time.


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## MastanKhan

IceCold said:


> This is the kind of JET PAF should be looking at for deep strikes within Indian territory and this will give us a huge boost in naval warfare as well keeping the IN much away. @MastanKhan



Hi,

The J16 is an excellent aircraft on its own merits---but it cannot compete in the low low flight envelop that the JH7 was developed for.

The US had the F111 for the low low flight capability that the russian military feared the most---. After that camethe B1 and then the B2---. The B2 with its stealth capability did not need the low flight capability---.

Pakistan has a vast ocean to strike at its enemy from different angles---. That capability would force the enemy to withdraw its multiple assets from the land facing border with Pakistan---thus thinning their strike capability and defences---.

The naval strike capability of the JH7A would play havoc on the enemy---why---.

On land---the enemy can have multiple SA missile batteries covering most of the entry points---.

If you look at the map of pakistan to the enemy---flying from Pasni---the aircraft can pick up multiple strike targets from standoff distances without getting into the enemy SA missile range---.

The targets that a naval strike mission opens are extremely vulnerable to the enemy. Strikes on targets in mumbai would strike at the heart of the enemy's economy---and that would be the most crucial strikes---would break the enemy's back---.

The JH7A still carries more load and has a longer strike distance than the J16---.

Please remember---there are two main types of aircraft---air superiority and general strike amongst many other---but I will keep the list short for understanding---.

You air superiority aircraft has to to be able to compete with the enemy mano a mano---because that is what they are designed for---.

But your strike aircraft are opportunistic aircraft that pickup a load from one place and deliver it to another place---they don't have to compete against the enemy aircraft in an air superiority battle---even though they do have some capability---but their primary goal is to move in deliver their goods and run away---.

For a country like china---The J16's the J15's the J11's are important showcases---because the chinese need to show their public where the investment is going---. They have to show off their new toys to build up confidence in the public towards their armed forces---but that does not mean that the old work horses have suddenly become obsolete---.

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## LKJ86

J-11BH & J-11BSH

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## Brainsucker

IceCold said:


> So than these can be exported without getting any approval from Russia.



The Engine? Yes, they can, I think. If China can increase their production capacity. The plane? Nope.

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## jupiter2007

Since J-16 uses Chinese engine, Can Pakistan acquire 36 J-16 for stop gap purpose?


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## Leclan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> ~~~~~
> but that does not mean that the old work horses have suddenly become obsolete---.



rational analysis. good summary.


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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Su-30MKK2

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## LKJ86

J-11BH

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## LKJ86

J-16D?

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> J-16D?
> View attachment 536880
> View attachment 536881



I would say yes, the wing-tip pod on the second image is a clear proof. 

More interesting however is the tail with a psed serial number wich suggests it being assigned to an operational unit.


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## LKJ86

J-16

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## LKJ86



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## 帅的一匹



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## LKJ86

J-11BH

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## LKJ86

Su-30MKK2 & PL-12

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## Fawadqasim1

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 537311


Bro Can you tell me one thing how can Pakistan buy 
This aircraft


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## LKJ86

Fawadqasim1 said:


> Bro Can you tell me one thing how can Pakistan buy
> This aircraft


Basically impossible.
Why not buy Su-35 or Su-30 from Russia?

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## LKJ86

Su-30MKK

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## LKJ86

Su-30MKK

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## LKJ86

J-16

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## LKJ86

The video of J-16:
https://m.weibo.cn/6362632222/4339211958273767

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## wulff

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The J16 is an excellent aircraft on its own merits---but it cannot compete in the low low flight envelop that the JH7 was developed for.
> 
> The US had the F111 for the low low flight capability that the russian military feared the most---. After that camethe B1 and then the B2---. The B2 with its stealth capability did not need the low flight capability---.
> 
> Pakistan has a vast ocean to strike at its enemy from different angles---. That capability would force the enemy to withdraw its multiple assets from the land facing border with Pakistan---thus thinning their strike capability and defences---.
> 
> The naval strike capability of the JH7A would play havoc on the enemy---why---.
> 
> On land---the enemy can have multiple SA missile batteries covering most of the entry points---.
> 
> If you look at the map of pakistan to the enemy---flying from Pasni---the aircraft can pick up multiple strike targets from standoff distances without getting into the enemy SA missile range---.
> 
> The targets that a naval strike mission opens are extremely vulnerable to the enemy. Strikes on targets in mumbai would strike at the heart of the enemy's economy---and that would be the most crucial strikes---would break the enemy's back---.
> 
> The JH7A still carries more load and has a longer strike distance than the J16---.
> 
> Please remember---there are two main types of aircraft---air superiority and general strike amongst many other---but I will keep the list short for understanding---.
> 
> You air superiority aircraft has to to be able to compete with the enemy mano a mano---because that is what they are designed for---.
> 
> But your strike aircraft are opportunistic aircraft that pickup a load from one place and deliver it to another place---they don't have to compete against the enemy aircraft in an air superiority battle---even though they do have some capability---but their primary goal is to move in deliver their goods and run away---.
> 
> For a country like china---The J16's the J15's the J11's are important showcases---because the chinese need to show their public where the investment is going---. They have to show off their new toys to build up confidence in the public towards their armed forces---but that does not mean that the old work horses have suddenly become obsolete---.




Indeed, the PAF lacks a modern terrain hugging low-level strike platform. PAF lacks any survivable platforms for offensive air operations much farther from the border (yes, even with F16 Block 52s). The Chinese JH-7, Saudi/UK/Euro Tornadoes, Qatari/UAE Mirage 2k, and used Mirage F1s and Jaguars are all capable platforms that can be acquired for this role.

But surely the PAF must not think of procuring dedicated strike aircraft when they cannot even attain air dominance over home skies. They dont have a modern SAM worth speaking of, not to speak of a layered SAM network, and they dont have any air superiority fighter that can dominate an MKI either. Surely the priority should be on these systems instead of strike aircraft, which wont even be able to take off from their bases unless air superiority is achieved first in the skies of Pakistan. The PAF is in critical need of air-superiority and air-defence capability. Forget any strike aircraft: ballistic and cruise missiles are their best bet for now.

This is where the J-16 may be the perfect aircraft for PAF. The J-16 is replacing the PLAAF JH-7s, which means it is good enough for the PLAAF for the strike mission and also better than the JH-7 (otherwise why would the PLAAF choose it over the JH-7B?). It can attack from the sea as you describe, it has the range of a Flanker!

The J-16 is far more than a strike aircraft, however. It is China's #2 air superiority jet, behind only the J-20 in its A2A capability, and this is the best thing about it. In most respects, it is better than the Su-35 export variant the Chinese have. If you dont believe me, ask our Chinese friends like @LKJ86, @rcrmj or @cirr. It is probably the only jet apart from the Su-35 that can achieve air superiority over meteor firing Rafales and upgraded Su-30MKI of the IAF. *After *the new TVC engine that we have seen on the J-10C makes its way on the J-16, it will probably equal the Su-35 in maneuvrability as well.

It is a 2-in-1: it fulfills the main roles of both Su-30MKI (air superiority) and Rafale (low level strike) for PAF. When paired with stealth drones like the Ch-7, it is the next best thing to a J-20. Unless the PAF wants to wait for a chinese stealth fighter like the naval stealth aircraft they are developing, this is the best thing for PAF.

@Windjammer

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## rcrmj

wulff said:


> The J-16 is far more than a strike aircraft, however. It is China's #2 air superiority jet, behind only the J-20 in its A2A capability, and this is the best thing about it. In most respects, it is better than the Su-35 export variant the Chinese have. If you dont believe me, ask our Chinese friends like @LKJ86, @rcrmj or @cirr. It is probably the only jet apart from the Su-35 that can achieve air superiority over meteor firing Rafales and upgraded Su-30MKI of the IAF. *After *the new TVC engine that we have seen on the J-10C makes its way on the J-16, it will probably equal the Su-35 in maneuvrability as well.
> 
> It is a 2-in-1: it fulfills the main roles of both Su-30MKI (air superiority) and Rafale (low level strike) for PAF. When paired with stealth drones like the Ch-7, it is the next best thing to a J-20. Unless the PAF wants to wait for a chinese stealth fighter like the naval stealth aircraft they are developing, this is the best thing for PAF.
> 
> @Windjammer



Su-35 has overall better performance than J-16 for the time being````they are both multi-role fighters, each one has its own kicks. but in real combat, it is the polit and tactic that wins the end.

Ralales is a good fighter too, the French has their own ways of understanding modern air battle, but cant say that their fighter is better than its peer in same generation, they also have their distinct disadvantages```people from the circle call them “娇贵”、“标新立异”`````

in term of MKI````well, those J-10B's radar has already made them "clueless" few times ago`````but cant say MKI is a bad model (back to the days when India first got MKI, it was kind a shock to PLAAF, as we did not have anything at its level in our inventory, but the situation changed dramatically after 2006) just for too long it has not recieved any significent upgrades from its supplier

for major technologically advanced air-force, their fighters will recieve small upgrades in 2-3 years time, and significent upgrades in around 5 years time````and big "changes" around 10 years````but India is simply not capable of doing that, it has to rely on Russia, France and other suppliers to do that job, and very costly!

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## LKJ86



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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 539284



One of the J-16 prototypes? ... or am i wrong?

By the way, any news on the J-11D?


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## wulff

rcrmj said:


> Su-35 has overall better performance than J-16 for the time being````they are both multi-role fighters, each one has its own kicks. but in real combat, it is the polit and tactic that wins the end.
> 
> Ralales is a good fighter too, the French has their own ways of understanding modern air battle, but cant say that their fighter is better than its peer in same generation, they also have their distinct disadvantages```people from the circle call them “娇贵”、“标新立异”`````
> 
> in term of MKI````well, those J-10B's radar has already made them "clueless" few times ago`````but cant say MKI is a bad model (back to the days when India first got MKI, it was kind a shock to PLAAF, as we did not have anything at its level in our inventory, but the situation changed dramatically after 2006) just for too long it has not recieved any significent upgrades from its supplier
> 
> for major technologically advanced air-force, their fighters will recieve small upgrades in 2-3 years time, and significent upgrades in around 5 years time````and big "changes" around 10 years````but India is simply not capable of doing that, it has to rely on Russia, France and other suppliers to do that job, and very costly!



It is good to hear your view on this issue. However, I still consider Yankeesama the authority on issues related to Chinese Flankers and he has a very different opinion. He has given a very detailed comparision between J-16 and Su-35 in a q/a recently. Here is the link to the original article:

https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s?__biz=Mz...8b37aca2799f8d57cc8&source=41#wechat_redirect

and 

https://mil.sina.cn/sd/2018-12-09/d...7lzkOy6OXCwaKc_jbkDrSlt_K9Qdn1WqMdPc7DTwlb24g 

And here is the link to a translation done on reddit:


__
https://www.reddit.com/r/path%3D%252Fr%252FLessCredibleDefence%252Fcomments%252Fajx4bx%252F


I'll reproduce the bits from the reddit translation that are relevant to this discussion:

*- Su-35 is very maneuverable, possibly the most maneuverable fighter in the PLAAF*

*- The N035E is an excellent PESA radar. It's pretty much the best PESA radar you can practically develop.*

*- However, it's substantially weaker than the current generation of Chinese AESAs.*

*- ESM/ECM systems are not as good as the J-16s. If the J16 were to be rated a 10/10, the Su-35 would be an 8.5/10 on ESM and 8/10 on ECM performance.*

*- The IRST is also worse ("far inferior"), due to the state of the Russian electronics/optics industry.*

*- R-77/R-73 are unremarkable, and performance trails the Chinese PL-10 and PL-15 missiles. *

*- The N035E's look-up range is only slightly more than the J-16 radar's look-down range, and the former is not as effective as the latter in anti-surface mode*

*- The '8.5' and '8.0' scores refer to the Su-35's sensing and EW capabilities respectively assuming the J-16's are set at '10' for both*

*- The weapons package of the Su-35 is not particularly impressive*

*- The KS-172, even if imported, wouldn't compare favourably with China's own VLRAAM*

*- Strike munitions of the Su-35 deal are upgraded versions of the same munitions procured as part of the Su-30 deals almost twenty years ago and there is limited value in what can learnt from them*

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## LKJ86

wulff said:


> It is good to hear your view on this issue. However, I still consider Yankeesama the authority on issues related to Chinese Flankers and he has a very different opinion. He has given a very detailed comparision between J-16 and Su-35 in a q/a recently. Here is the link to the original article:
> 
> https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s?__biz=Mz...8b37aca2799f8d57cc8&source=41#wechat_redirect
> 
> and
> 
> https://mil.sina.cn/sd/2018-12-09/d...7lzkOy6OXCwaKc_jbkDrSlt_K9Qdn1WqMdPc7DTwlb24g
> 
> And here is the link to a translation done on reddit:
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/path%3D%252Fr%252FLessCredibleDefence%252Fcomments%252Fajx4bx%252F
> 
> 
> I'll reproduce the bits from the reddit translation that are relevant to this discussion:
> 
> *- Su-35 is very maneuverable, possibly the most maneuverable fighter in the PLAAF*
> 
> *- The N035E is an excellent PESA radar. It's pretty much the best PESA radar you can practically develop.*
> 
> *- However, it's substantially weaker than the current generation of Chinese AESAs.*
> 
> *- ESM/ECM systems are not as good as the J-16s. If the J16 were to be rated a 10/10, the Su-35 would be an 8.5/10 on ESM and 8/10 on ECM performance.*
> 
> *- The IRST is also worse ("far inferior"), due to the state of the Russian electronics/optics industry.*
> 
> *- R-77/R-73 are unremarkable, and performance trails the Chinese PL-10 and PL-15 missiles. *
> 
> *- The N035E's look-up range is only slightly more than the J-16 radar's look-down range, and the former is not as effective as the latter in anti-surface mode*
> 
> *- The '8.5' and '8.0' scores refer to the Su-35's sensing and EW capabilities respectively assuming the J-16's are set at '10' for both*
> 
> *- The weapons package of the Su-35 is not particularly impressive*
> 
> *- The KS-172, even if imported, wouldn't compare favourably with China's own VLRAAM*
> 
> *- Strike munitions of the Su-35 deal are upgraded versions of the same munitions procured as part of the Su-30 deals almost twenty years ago and there is limited value in what can learnt from them*


PLAAF is displeased with Su-35SK's radar, avionics, and ammunition.

And it is difficult for Su-35SK to be integrated into PLAAF's combat systems architecture.

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## 055_destroyer

LKJ86 said:


> PLAAF is displeased with Su-35SK's radar, avionics, and ammunition.
> 
> And it is difficult for Su-35SK to be integrated into PLAAF's combat systems architecture.


I don't think PLAAF is stupid. They long know the weakness of Su-35 even before buying it.

The purchase looks more of a political decision than military one. See how Sukhoi never promote their product during Zhuhai 2018 airshow tells you something.


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## LKJ86

055_destroyer said:


> I don't think PLAAF is stupid. They long know the weakness of Su-35 even before buying it.
> 
> The purchase looks more of a political decision than military one. See how Sukhoi never promote their product during Zhuhai 2018 airshow tells you something.


Due to its engines, and airframe strengthening.

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## wulff

LKJ86 said:


> PLAAF is displeased with Su-35SK's radar, avionics, and ammunition.
> 
> And it is difficult for Su-35SK to be integrated into PLAAF's combat systems architecture.



In addition, rumors saying that in recent exercises the Su-35SK was repeatedly defeated and proved to be no match for J-16s and J-10Cs.



LKJ86 said:


> Due to its engines, and airframe strengthening.



I'm of the view that it was bought for 3 reasons:

1) engine
2) flight control system
3) The proliferation of Flankers around China (specifically the MKI, and the ones operated by Vietnam, Malaysia and Indonesia), which would be the most dangerous opponent for the PLAAF after the F-35.

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## LKJ86

wulff said:


> In addition, rumors saying that in recent exercises the Su-35SK was repeatedly defeated and proved to be no match for J-16s and J-10Cs.


Waiting for the "golden helmet" competition this year.



wulff said:


> 2) flight control system
> 3) The proliferation of Flankers around China (specifically the MKI, and the ones operated by Vietnam, Malaysia and Indonesia), which would be the most dangerous opponent for the PLAAF after the F-35.


PLAAF just takes F-22 and F-35 seriously.

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## rcrmj

LKJ86 said:


> *PLAAF is displeased with Su-35SK's radar, avionics, and ammunition.*
> 
> And it is difficult for Su-35SK to be integrated into PLAAF's combat systems architecture.


quite opposite in fact```they are actually amazed by that Russian radar, its major performance is even better than some of the latest AESA radars out there, including some of them that we have atm````there is a miscomception among fans, that AESA is better than PESA, no matter what components, structure, architecture and software they use`````

in fact the radar is not genuine PESA, (他们没有像传统的无源雷达，所有元器件共用一个发射机，N035E使用了一种全新的架构，就是几个元器件组成一个组，用一个发射机，这样这个雷达还是有多个发射机，和多个T/R组组成的，只不过没有像AESA一个元器件一个收发机),sorry I didnt use english, as I have my limitations of express some in English```````they also managed very well in terms of reducing noise and signal reduction, 

J-16 may have advantage of optical sensors, thanks to J-20, however, Russia, unlike China and U.S, has its own approach of dealing with detecting targets when the environment is highly jammed with signals or finding stealth objects, like multipul bandwith solution, they have radar antennas over the wings, body and rear etc````

importing Su-35 has two major reasons:
1、to fill the dire needs of PLAAF for advanced heavy fighter, the decade old J-11B is not up to the latest challenge placed by the fighters deployed by the U.S in Asia-Pacific region. It will take time for the latest J-11B to fill in. And most importantly, it will take years for J-20 to meet up PLAAF's unit demand. there is still production problems facing J-20, as some of suppliers still cannot stablize their product's defective rate.

2、what Chinese aviation engineers can learn from Su-35 is not one technology or few, but the innovative thinkings in dealing with problems. how they always manage to use normal components to round up world-class platforms and systems! nowadays, we have the latest components and advanced technologies, but the collective results are not always up to our expectation.

and back to J-16, it is a very advanced fighter, and its main job is "sweeping" the floor and shooting down long distance big and clumsy air targets, rather like Su-35's air superiority roles````

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## LKJ86

J-16

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## rcrmj

we have loads 30MKK need to be relpaced, luckly we have J-16, but unlucky for even larger J-11B's replacement, as J-11D project is a bit disappointing```



wulff said:


> ers around China (specifically the MKI, and the ones operated by Vietnam, Malaysia and Indonesia), which would be the most dangerous opponent for the PLAAF after the F-35.


we only look at the U.S, the rest are negligable`````most of them cannt even sustain few days intense air battle campaign, not to mention their technological gap is too wide to put up a serious challenge to us`````连日本海自的空军在东海被几架土鳖的电子战飞机搞得团团转，整天吵着要美爹卖他们最新的咆哮者，和电战特种机·····


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## LKJ86

rcrmj said:


> quite opposite in fact```they are actually amazed by that Russian radar, its major performance is even better than some of the latest AESA radars out there, including some of them that we have atm````there is a miscomception among fans, that AESA is better than PESA, no matter what components, structure, architecture and software they use`````
> 
> in fact the radar is not genuine PESA, (他们没有像传统的无源雷达，所有元器件共用一个发射机，N035E使用了一种全新的架构，就是几个元器件组成一个组，用一个发射机，这样这个雷达还是有多个发射机，和多个T/R组组成的，只不过没有像AESA一个元器件一个收发机),sorry I didnt use english, as I have my limitations of express some in English```````they also managed very well in terms of reducing noise and signal reduction,
> 
> J-16 may have advantage of optical sensors, thanks to J-20, however, Russia, unlike China and U.S, has its own approach of dealing with detecting targets when the environment is highly jammed with signals or finding stealth objects, like multipul bandwith solution, they have radar antennas over the wings, body and rear etc````
> 
> importing Su-35 has two major reasons:
> 1、to fill the dire needs of PLAAF for advanced heavy fighter, the decade old J-11B is not up to the latest challenge placed by the fighters deployed by the U.S in Asia-Pacific region. It will take time for the latest J-11B to fill in. And most importantly, it will take years for J-20 to meet up PLAAF's unit demand. there is still production problems facing J-20, as some of suppliers still cannot stablize their product's defective rate.
> 
> 2、what Chinese aviation engineers can learn from Su-35 is not one technology or few, but the innovative thinkings in dealing with problems. how they always manage to use normal components to round up world-class platforms and systems! nowadays, we have the latest components and advanced technologies, but the collective results are not always up to our expectation.
> 
> and back to J-16, it is a very advanced fighter, and its main job is "sweeping" the floor and shooting down long distance big and clumsy air targets, rather like Su-35's air superiority roles````


Su-35SK is just like the 4 Type P.956 destroyers, which were bought before the mass production of Type 052C/D destroyers.

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## LKJ86

J-11BS

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## rcrmj

LKJ86 said:


> Su-35SK is just like the 4 Type P.956 destroyers, which were bought before the mass production of Type 052C/D destroyers.
> 
> View attachment 539425


but the problem is that the PLAAF doesnt have "052D" in number, and J-11D is pretty much dead, J-11B upgrades will take time, and dont know when they are going to increase J-20's production rate````they really need latest 3rd++ gen heavy jets atm


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## LKJ86

rcrmj said:


> but the problem is that the PLAAF doesnt have "052D" in number, and J-11D is pretty much dead, J-11B upgrades will take time, and dont know when they are going to increase J-20's production rate````they really need latest 3rd++ gen heavy jets atm


J-20 is the "052D".
It is the era of 4-generation fighter aircrafts now.
There is no more space for 3.5-generation air superiority fighter aircrafts .

In PLAAF, J-20 is for air superiority, and J-10C and J-16 for multirole.

Su-35SK will be forgot very soon, just like Type P.956 destroyers.

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## Deino

Do we have any recent news on the J-11D?


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## LKJ86




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## LKJ86



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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 540181
> View attachment 540182




Well ... J-11B + CM-400AKG !?? That's indeed a surprise.

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## rcrmj

LKJ86 said:


> J-20 is the "052D".
> It is the era of 4-generation fighter aircrafts now.
> There is no more space for 3.5-generation air superiority fighter aircrafts .
> 
> In PLAAF, J-20 is for air superiority, and J-10C and J-16 for multirole.
> 
> Su-35SK will be forgot very soon, just like Type P.956 destroyers.


J-20 is more like aircraft-carrier, and J-16D is 055 and J-11D is like the place of 052D````well

the fact is for major air-forces like USAF and PLAAF, 3.5 gen will keep playing important roles for very long time. air superiority, ground attack, anti-ship, EW etc````````apart from the stealth outfit, the other performances will ever be closing in. 

and regarding how soon the PLAAF will "forget" Su-35, it really depends on how fast they sort out J-11D's development and J-20's production problems````otherwise, dont feel suprised that PLAAF will order more Su-35, well``with all honesty, I dont want to see more foreign planes in our inventory too`````but again reality is reality you cant deny it```



Deino said:


> Do we have any recent news on the J-11D?


it is still going on and off *as far as I know*, but it will be very unlikely to reach the efficiency as Su-35 (mainly due to structure problem and low cost efficiency to replace J-11Bs), however, luckly lots of its sub-systems and research results will be used on J-11B's upgrades``````PLAAF is not as optimistic as most fans believe
there worries are``
1: urgent needs of latest 3.5 gen heavy fighters (the likes of F-18E/F, silent eagle, J-16, J-15 and Su-35 )
2: 5th gen fighter production problem, for example, in theory, or "according to plan", they will provide 20 units of J-20 to PLAAF a year, but due to suppler and production line problem, they can hardly make 10``````furthermoren, it will take years to develop J-20 into a perfect condition````(the U.S having the similar problem in developing their F-22 and F-35 too)
3: even though the pressure from the U.S is pretty much the same as 10 years ago, however, due to China's rapid development of its economy, technology and military to a crucial point. the requirement for countermeasures to the event of desperate moves from the U.S is ever pressing````therefore, to build a 5th gen information centric battle system in a shortest period of time is imperative``````

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## LKJ86

J-16

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## HRK

LKJ86 said:


> J-16
> View attachment 539398
> 
> View attachment 539399


which missile or pod is this J-16 carrying ...??


----------



## LKJ86

HRK said:


> which missile or pod is this J-16 carrying ...??


KD-88

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## HRK

LKJ86 said:


> KD-88


is this some new version .....??
there is no fins on the missile ...


----------



## LKJ86

HRK said:


> is this some new version .....??
> there is no fins on the missile ...


A training missile.

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## LKJ86

J-16

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## LKJ86

Su-30MKK2

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

J-11B and J-11BS

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## LKJ86



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## Rashid Mahmood

HRK said:


> is this some new version .....??
> there is no fins on the missile ...


Blue colour is for training missiles.

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## LKJ86

Su-30MKK


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## LKJ86

Rashid Mahmood said:


> Blue colour is for training missiles.


Maybe just for AAM.


----------



## LKJ86

J-16

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> J-16
> View attachment 545280



The naval J-16 or yet another new radome-colour?


----------



## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

J-11B and J-11BS

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## LKJ86

J-16

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## LKJ86

J-11BS

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> J-11BS
> View attachment 547095



Oh well ... a very old image of a 14th Air Division bird!

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

J-16

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## LKJ86

Su-30MKK

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## LKJ86

J-11B

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## LKJ86

J-11B

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## LKJ86

J-11B & PL-15

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> J-11B & PL-15
> View attachment 548127




And this is from 2016


----------



## LKJ86



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## lcloo

Magazine picture. PLA Navy Aviation J16, with YJ-83 and YJ-12 anti-ship missile. Also with YJ-91 anti-radiation missile.

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## j20blackdragon

LKJ86 said:


> J-16
> View attachment 547057



J-16 0413

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1107400597978968064
And each batch has at least 24 aircraft, confirmed by your picture here.



LKJ86 said:


> J-16
> View attachment 547380



So that would be 4 * 24 = 96 large AESA radars in the air.

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## Deino

j20blackdragon said:


> J-16 0413
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1107400597978968064
> And each batch has at least 24 aircraft, confirmed by your picture here.
> 
> 
> 
> So that would be 4 * 24 = 96 large AESA radars in the air.




I wouldn't be surprised if even a few more... latest confirmed c/n is indeed J-16 0412 (??) ut Block 3 had at least 28 aircraft (highest number known is 0328) and if you consider that production is always ahead to confirmed deliveries.

Block 04 was first confirmed in September, so its now almost six months later.

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## samsara

Deino said:


> And this is from 2016


And more precisely to give the correct perspective, a picture of *J-11B + PL-15* at post #1423 (PL-15: an active radar-guided very long range AAM – around 200 km!?) from (or taken in) 2016 *yet only made known to public recently*... thus keep this development below radar for over two years (summarizing your words, Deino, plus some addition for clarification). Readers should just remember this tidbit on the other occasion 

Though I frankly didn't follow or get it why folks had thought that the PL-15 wouldn't be part of the J-11B even in the absence of any clear picture. What factor(s) would have prevent such armament?

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## Deino

Exactly !


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## LKJ86

J-16

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## LKJ86

J-11B

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## LKJ86

J-16

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## LKJ86

https://m.weibo.cn/1240246333/4354538930587399

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## LKJ86

J-11B and J-11BS

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## LKJ86

J-11BS

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Su-30MKK










https://m.weibo.cn/1240246333/4356614088161393

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

J-11B and J-11BS

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## LKJ86

J-16

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

J-16


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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> J-16
> View attachment 552034




IMO the first clearer image of the J-16 assigned to the 40th Brigade / ETC
(via CMA/Huitong)


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## LKJ86

J-16


----------



## Deino

Deino said:


> IMO the first clearer image of the J-16 assigned to the 40th Brigade / ETC
> (via CMA/Huitong)
> 
> View attachment 552673




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1116581521765232641


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## LKJ86

J-16

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## LKJ86

J-11BSH

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## BHarwana



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## rashid.sarwar

A fully loaded (A2A) any J family plane pic please, thanks


----------



## Deino

BHarwana said:


> View attachment 553131




At the CFTE?


----------



## BHarwana

Deino said:


> At the CFTE?


Xi an test air base Image date 12/12/2018

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## Deino

BHarwana said:


> View attachment 553131



Hmmm??? One Flanker is in light grey colour. Maybe a J-16H?


----------



## BHarwana

Deino said:


> Hmmm??? One Flanker is in light grey colour. Maybe a J-16H?


there is another one up the lane standing solo with same light grey color.


----------



## Deino

BHarwana said:


> there is another one up the lane standing solo with same light grey color.
> 
> View attachment 553176




But that's a JH-7A

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## BHarwana

Deino said:


> But that's a JH-7A


okay so this means that flanker has the color of JH7A the very light blue grey.


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## LKJ86

J-11BSH

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## LKJ86

Su-27UBK 
April 10, 2019

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## bahadur999

LKJ86 said:


> Su-27UBK
> April 10, 2019
> View attachment 553641
> View attachment 553642
> View attachment 553643


Isn't that Su-30MKK?


----------



## LKJ86

bahadur999 said:


> Isn't that Su-30MKK?


Really?


----------



## GumNaam

bahadur999 said:


> Isn't that Su-30MKK?


Nope. The MKK has leading canard wings.


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## LKJ86

GumNaam said:


> Nope. The MKK has leading canard wings.


What?


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## GumNaam

LKJ86 said:


> What?


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## LKJ86

GumNaam said:


>


It is J-15.


----------



## GumNaam

LKJ86 said:


> It is J-15.


Oh my bad. Thought that was the MKK...


----------



## bahadur999

My bad...all so similiar...
According to ChinaMil it is belong to the STC and i didn't know STC operates this type.


----------



## lcloo

_According to Huitong:-
A total three batches of Su-27s were imported. The first batch of 26 (20 SK & *6 UBK*, S: serial, K: commercial, $32m each) were acquired starting 1992. The second batch of 24 (16 Su-27SK and *8 Su-27UBK*) were acquired starting 1996. The third batch of *28 Su-27UBKs* ($35m each) were acquired starting 2000 to speed up the training of qualified pilots. _

The first 6 SU-27UBK would be 27 years old.
The 2nd batch of 8 SU-27UBK would be 22 years old
The final batch of 28 SU-27UBK is =< 18 years old.

In less than 5 years all SU-27UBK should be expected to be replaced by J11BS (and JL10 for J20) in conversion training roles.

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## LKJ86

J-11D

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## samsara

LKJ86 said:


> J-11D
> View attachment 553811


From China Flight Test Institute 
中国飞行试验研究院

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

J-11BSH

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## LKJ86

J-11B

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## samsara

LKJ86 said:


> J-11D
> View attachment 553811


Henri Kenhmann (East Pendulum) on 18 April:

_“One of the prototypes of the *J-11D,* appeared in a report commemorating the *60th anniversary of CFTE (China Flight Test Establishment)*. He should be the one who is equipped with the *complete electronic suite*.” (emphasis is mine) _


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1118880494769201157
About a question on whether the program of J-11D is still ongoing or already cancelled?

Henri: _“No public indication for the time being. The future of this program depends on the need of PLAAF / PLANAF for heavy low end air superiority fighter.” _

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## cirr

J16？

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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1119171295478988800

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## LKJ86

J-16

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> J-16
> View attachment 556282



J-16 65211 ... so from the 40. Brigade

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## LKJ86

J-11BSH

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## LKJ86

J-16

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## LKJ86

J-16

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## LKJ86

J-16

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> J-16
> View attachment 559113




The naval variant J-16H???


----------



## LKJ86

Deino said:


> The naval variant J-16H???


No...


----------



## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> No...



Well ... so it is simply a new batch with a lighter grey coloured radome or do I miss something?


----------



## samsara

LKJ86 said:


> J-16
> View attachment 559113


From Rupprecht Deino on 10 May:

_Indeed quite a spectacular day: The *first operational Z-20s*, the *first clear image of the Type 075 LHD* and now even this. A first clear image of that *strange J-16 with a light-grey radome*. Allegedly now not destined to the PLA Naval Aviation, I don't know, why the new colour 
image via LKJ86/PDF_


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1126543740791926784


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## samsara

*The spectacular days around these days indeed!  *

•056: launch of the 60th corvette at Huangpu

•052D: launch of 19th and 20th at Dalian (052DG)

•071 LPD: first clear image seen, 8th at HDZH

•075 LHD: first clear image seen, lead ship at HDZH

•Y-20A: another newly baked batch seen at XAC

•Z-20: the first clear image of the operational unit

•J-16: unknown light-grey radome, not for the Naval Aviation

_In the spirit of the Centennial Celebration of the historic May Fourth Movement? _

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## LKJ86

J-11B and J-11BS

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## Deino

via Scchwerter_/SDF:



> hmmmmm I found something quite interesting on google earth. Turns out that there seems to be a J-15 electronic warfare aircraft and possibly a J-16 electronic warfare aircraft (I judged by the rather large pods mounted on wingtips) in the Shenyang aircraft cooperation airstrip. Both planes are in grey, which may be an indication that the planes are in final test stage?





> Red circle is where the J15D is (coordinates 41°51'29"N, 123°26'05"E)
> Blue circle is the location of the supposed J16D (coordinates 41°51'38"N, 123°26'02"E)
> I believe the black circle to be a new assembly plant that SAC is building, although I can't figure out what the plant would be used for……they're already producing like 60 flankers a year

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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1127602365035683840

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## LKJ86

J-16

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Su-30MKK2


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## LKJ86

J-16

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## LKJ86

J-16

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## LKJ86

J-11BH and J-11BSH

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## LKJ86

J-11B and J-11BS

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## LKJ86

April 9, 2019


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## LKJ86

J-11BH and J-11BSH


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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

J-16

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 562475




Ten JL-10Hs and seven J-11BSHs assigned to the PLAN Naval Air University (NAU) at Suizhong/Liaoning spotted on 19 April 2019. The Flankers were allegedly handed over from the South China Sea Fleet .

Image source: DigitalGlobe via Huitong


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## LKJ86

J-16

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## LKJ86

Su-30MKK2

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## LKJ86

J-16

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> J-16
> View attachment 563009




Nice image, but the c/n is erased.


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## LKJ86

J-11B

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## LKJ86

J-16

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> J-16
> View attachment 563156



I must admit, I'm not entirely sure - esp. since that image is too blurred - but could be that these J-16s featuring the new light-grey coloured radome are indeen already Block 5 aircraft?
It seems a bit as if the construction number on this J-16 is '0502' ... and also, I never noticed this detail on the pylon's front.














__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1135202155793719296

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## LKJ86

J-11BS

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## LKJ86

Su-30MKK2

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## Deino

Deino said:


> I must admit, I'm not entirely sure - esp. since that image is too blurred - but could be that these J-16s featuring the new light-grey coloured radome are indeen already Block 5 aircraft?
> It seems a bit as if the construction number on this J-16 is '0502' ... and also, I never noticed this detail on the pylon's front.
> 
> 
> View attachment 563186
> View attachment 563187
> View attachment 563188
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1135202155793719296




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1135532706937344000

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1135536182614548481

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## LKJ86

J-16

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## LKJ86

J-16

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## LKJ86

Su-30MKK2

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## LKJ86

J-11BSH

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## LKJ86

PLAAF's Su-30MKK can use PL-12 AAM now afer the upgrade of radar.

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 571650
> 
> PLAAF's Su-30MKK can use PL-12 AAM now afer the upgrade of radar.




The question now is, is it an upgrade of the original Russian radar or even an upgradd to the new indigenous radar?


----------



## LKJ86

Deino said:


> The question now is, is it an upgrade of the original Russian radar or even an upgradd to the new indigenous radar?


An upgrade of the original Russian radar.

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## LKJ86

Su-30MKK

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## Deino

J-16 + KG700A ECM


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1156895089500835840

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## LKJ86

Deino said:


> J-16 + KG700A ECM
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1156895089500835840

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 571934




I knew, you would correct me. Thanks and great to have you back again.

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## LKJ86



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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> I was busy for my PhD at that time, and free now.




I hope this time of hard work was worth all efforts.

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> Yep, you can call me Dr. now.




So congratulations  ... may I ask on what subject?

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## LKJ86

J-11B and J-11BS

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## LKJ86



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## Deino

J-11B with an unknown PGM

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## LKJ86

J-16

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## LKJ86

J-11BH and J-11BSH

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## LKJ86

J-11BH and J-11BSH

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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1161617135963201537

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

J-11BH and J-11BSH

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## DANGER-ZONE

What happened to that innovative copy of Su-34 ?
I guess we have seen only one picture of it.

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## LKJ86

J-11BSH

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## Deino

DANGER-ZONE said:


> What happened to that innovative copy of Su-34 ?
> I guess we have seen only *one picture* of it.




You mean "*only one faked photoshop image*"?

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## DANGER-ZONE

Deino said:


> You mean "*only one faked photoshop image*"?



It doesn't look fake though ... Its details are so clear ... It cant be fake.
Do you have its original image, over which this Photoshop has been made.


----------



## Figaro

DANGER-ZONE said:


> It doesn't look fake though ... Its details are so clear ... It cant be fake.
> Do you have its original image, over which this Photoshop has been made.


I dont think you understand the detailedness of photoshopping these days ...

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## Deino

DANGER-ZONE said:


> It doesn't look fake though ... Its details are so clear ... It cant be fake.
> Do you have its original image, over which this Photoshop has been made.




No I don't have it, but thats not necessary since these added LERX like extensiobs are so much off both in colour and texture ... there no question that this is a fake.

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## LKJ86

J-16




https://m.weibo.cn/5482286569/4408773232186857

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## Deino

DANGER-ZONE said:


> It doesn't look fake though ... Its details are so clear ... It cant be fake.
> Do you have its original image, over which this Photoshop has been made.



In case you like this type, here are some more of this faked one ...

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## LKJ86

J-11BH and J-11BSH

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## LKJ86

LKJ86 said:


> J-11BH and J-11BSH
> View attachment 575882
> View attachment 575883
> View attachment 575884
> View attachment 575885
> View attachment 575886
> View attachment 575887
> View attachment 575888
> View attachment 575889
> View attachment 575890
> View attachment 575891
> View attachment 575892
> View attachment 575893
> View attachment 575894
> View attachment 575895

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## LKJ86

J-16

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> J-16
> View attachment 576056




Beautiful image of a beautiful aircraft... 
And it looks as being loaded with a KD-88 AGM.

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## LKJ86

Su-30MKK

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## LKJ86



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## vi-va

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 576206


Nice picture ruined by signature.

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## LKJ86

J-16




Via @空军记者 from Weixin


----------



## LKJ86

J-16













Via @空军新闻 from Weixin

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> J-16
> View attachment 577494
> View attachment 577495
> View attachment 577496
> View attachment 577497
> 
> Via @空军新闻 from Weixin




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1169442140260319232


----------



## bahadur999



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## LKJ86

Via kj.81.cn

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

By 郝晓峰

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## LKJ86

Via @SAMMY熊熊 from Weibo

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## rashid.sarwar

Still No HMD 

Very keen to Know about chinese HMD progress


----------



## LKJ86

J-11BS

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## LKJ86

Su-30MKK2




























Via @当代海军 from Weixin

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## Fsjal

rashid.sarwar said:


> Still No HMD
> 
> Very keen to Know about chinese HMD progress


Sino-Flanker pilots do have HMDs though it looks more like the original Russian HMDs. Considering that China created their own HMD for J-10, I am surprised that none of the Sino-Flanker pilots use domestically-made new HMDs, which is a bit of a shame but maybe they'll start replacing the older Russian HMDs in the future.


----------



## rashid.sarwar

Fsjal said:


> Sino-Flanker pilots do have HMDs though it looks more like the original Russian HMDs. Considering that China created their own HMD for J-10, I am surprised that none of the Sino-Flanker pilots use domestically-made new HMDs, which is a bit of a shame but maybe they'll start replacing the older Russian HMDs in the future.


Can you give modal no. of the HMD developed by China, or post information about it. Thanks.


----------



## Fsjal

Does anyone know if the PLAAF has any plans regarding the future of its J-11As (as well as its J-8IIs)? It'd be interesting to replace not just the J-11As but even the J-8IIs with the J-11D.

Also, it seems that many have different opinions on the new J-11D, especially in light of the debate regarding both the J-11D and the J-20. Interestingly across the Pacific the US is going through a similar debate regarding the F-15X and F-35. I actually want to know what people think about this debate because personally I think J-20 and J-11D would make a good hi-lo mix combination, since the F-35 and F-15X make a good team in theory I could imagine the same for both J-20 and J-11D. I know that many believe J-11D isn't needed but I'm curious what everyone's opinion is on this topic.



rashid.sarwar said:


> Can you give modal no. of the HMD developed by China, or post information about it. Thanks.



I wish I could answer but even I don't know much about Chinese HMD development.


----------



## ariez168

Fsjal said:


> Does anyone know if the PLAAF has any plans regarding the future of its J-11As (as well as its J-8IIs)? It'd be interesting to replace not just the J-11As but even the J-8IIs with the J-11D.
> 
> Also, it seems that many have different opinions on the new J-11D, especially in light of the debate regarding both the J-11D and the J-20. Interestingly across the Pacific the US is going through a similar debate regarding the F-15X and F-35. I actually want to know what people think about this debate because personally I think J-20 and J-11D would make a good hi-lo mix combination, since the F-35 and F-15X make a good team in theory I could imagine the same for both J-20 and J-11D. I know that many believe J-11D isn't needed but I'm curious what everyone's opinion is on this topic.



China fokus on FC-31 & WS-15

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## LKJ86

J-16





Via @白龙_龙腾四海 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Fsjal said:


> Does anyone know if the PLAAF has any plans regarding the future of its J-11As (as well as its J-8IIs)? It'd be interesting to replace not just the J-11As but even the J-8IIs with the J-11D.
> 
> Also, it seems that many have different opinions on the new J-11D, especially in light of the debate regarding both the J-11D and the J-20. Interestingly across the Pacific the US is going through a similar debate regarding the F-15X and F-35. I actually want to know what people think about this debate because personally I think J-20 and J-11D would make a good hi-lo mix combination, since the F-35 and F-15X make a good team in theory I could imagine the same for both J-20 and J-11D. I know that many believe J-11D isn't needed but I'm curious what everyone's opinion is on this topic.


Maybe you have forgotten J-16, which plays the same role as F-15X.


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## Fsjal

LKJ86 said:


> Maybe you have forgotten J-16, which plays the same role as F-15X.


I haven't forgotten about J-16, though I see both J-16 and J-11D as China's equivalent to Su-30SM and Su-35S. Russia has plans to upgrade their Su-30SM to SM1 standard for better compatibility with their Su-35S, I'm assuming that J-16 already uses same avionics as J-11D so therefore it can be argued that J-11D isn't needed.

Playing devil's advocate, a rationale for PLAAF acquiring J-11Ds is so that J-16s can be more focused on its strike role while J-11D can be assigned to long-range air-defense among China's outer airspace frontiers like South China Sea or East China Sea, kinda like how the USAF has its F-15E focused mainly on expeditionary strike while F-15C/Ds are assigned to air-patrols within the US. The J-11B itself is no doubt already tasked with the heavy air-defense fighter role within the PLAAF but J-11D not only has better avionics but also has aerial-refueling capability, which J-11B lacks.

Although, it really depends on the choices made by the PLAAF on whether they want to buy the J-11D or not. Since the J-16 itself is perfectly multirole, not only is it a long-range heavy strike plane but also a long-range air-defense interceptor. J-16 would be indeed be a better choice since it features a secondary crewmember, important for air-defense intercept, while J-11D only has one.

Btw, do you know which PLAAF units operate the J-16?

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## LKJ86

Fsjal said:


> I haven't forgotten about J-16, though I see both J-16 and J-11D as China's equivalent to Su-30SM and Su-35S. Russia has plans to upgrade their Su-30SM to SM1 standard for better compatibility with their Su-35S, I'm assuming that J-16 already uses same avionics as J-11D so therefore it can be argued that J-11D isn't needed.
> 
> Playing devil's advocate, a rationale for PLAAF acquiring J-11Ds is so that J-16s can be more focused on its strike role while J-11D can be assigned to long-range air-defense among China's outer airspace frontiers like South China Sea or East China Sea, kinda like how the USAF has its F-15E focused mainly on expeditionary strike while F-15C/Ds are assigned to air-patrols within the US. The J-11B itself is no doubt already tasked with the heavy air-defense fighter role within the PLAAF but J-11D not only has better avionics but also has aerial-refueling capability, which J-11B lacks.
> 
> Although, it really depends on the choices made by the PLAAF on whether they want to buy the J-11D or not. Since the J-16 itself is perfectly multirole, not only is it a long-range heavy strike plane but also a long-range air-defense interceptor. J-16 would be indeed be a better choice since it features a secondary crewmember, important for air-defense intercept, while J-11D only has one.


The combination of J-20, J-16, and J-10C can do better than J-11D.
And SAC and CAC have focused on 5th-generation fighters.

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## Fsjal

LKJ86 said:


> The combination of J-20, J-16, and J-10C can do better than J-11D.
> And SAC and CAC have focused on 5th-generation fighters.


The only thing with 5th gen. stealth fighters is cost and maintenance. Currently USAF doesn't particularly operate a large number of F-22s and F-35s compared to the amount of F-16s they have in service. Plus F-35 only recently entered service despite years of development.

Apparently only around 4 PLAAF brigades operate the J-16. It'd take some time for PLAAF to operate a full number of J-20s so it would be interesting to know how much J-16s and J-10Cs are currently in service with PLAAF since the number of J-20s in service is a bit small, especially when compared to the number of F-22s and F-35s currently in service with USAF.


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## LKJ86

Fsjal said:


> The only thing with 5th gen. stealth fighters is cost and maintenance. Currently USAF doesn't particularly operate a large number of F-22s and F-35s compared to the amount of F-16s they have in service. Plus F-35 only recently entered service despite years of development.
> 
> Apparently only around 4 PLAAF brigades operate the J-16. It'd take some time for PLAAF to operate a full number of J-20s so it would be interesting to know how much J-16s and J-10Cs are currently in service with PLAAF since the number of J-20s in service is a bit small, especially when compared to the number of F-22s and F-35s currently in service with USAF.


But for PLAAF, the present is preferable to the past, by comparing with USAF.

That is enough.


----------



## Fsjal

LKJ86 said:


> But for PLAAF, the present is preferable to the past, by comparing with USAF.
> 
> That is enough.



Well there's nothing wrong with thinking forward into the future, and I don't see the need to silence an online discussion. While the J-20 entered service already there's still many improvements to be made with its engines, plus the stealth fighters are quite costly themselves. To fill in the vacant spots until the J-20 is produced at a high acceptable number, PLAAF would need to fill in the vacancy by a) buying additional Su-35S from Russia as an interim solution (highly unlikely); b) fill in an order for a couple of squadrons-worth of J-11D (possibly unlikely because of budget); or c) ordering more J-10Cs and J-16s (most likely). The third option would no doubt be the best option because both J-10Cs and J-16s are already in service and also because it's the most cost-affordable solution. Right now PLAAF only has a couple of brigades of J-16s while the number of J-10s (all variants) in service is still slightly less than the total number of F-35s.


----------



## vi-va

Fsjal said:


> The only thing with 5th gen. stealth fighters is cost and maintenance. Currently USAF doesn't particularly operate a large number of F-22s and F-35s compared to the amount of F-16s they have in service. Plus F-35 only recently entered service despite years of development.
> 
> Apparently only around 4 PLAAF brigades operate the J-16. It'd take some time for PLAAF to operate a full number of J-20s so it would be interesting to know how much J-16s and J-10Cs are currently in service with PLAAF since the number of J-20s in service is a bit small, especially when compared to the number of F-22s and F-35s currently in service with USAF.


5th generation is the future. The ROI will be lower and lower if keep investing on 4th generation.


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## zectech

viva_zhao said:


> 5th generation is the future. The ROI will be lower and lower if keep investing on 4th generation.



The strategy is to invest in technology to defeat 5th and 6th gen fighters and put that technology on 4th gen fighters. China has the radar to detect stealth at long range; miniaturize the radar and have the radar guide BVR AAM to destroy 5th gen fighters.

Destroying 5th gen fighters is the future, while having your own 5th gen fighters.

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## vi-va

zectech said:


> The strategy is to invest in technology to defeat 5th and 6th gen fighters and put that technology on 4th gen fighters. China has the radar to detect stealth at long range; miniaturize the radar and have the radar guide BVR AAM to destroy 5th gen fighters.
> 
> Destroying 5th gen fighters is the future, while having your own 5th gen fighters.


No. China is not play Asymmetric Warfare game. China will have similar GDP of U.S. in 10 years, and probably twice the GDP of U.S. in another 20 years. 

China would probably dominate west pacific and part of Indian Ocean. Only higher generation, better fighter jet can do that job.

Using 5th gen technology to modernize 4th gen fighter jet apply Asymmetric Warfare game with much less budget. and it will NOT win for long run.


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## zectech

viva_zhao said:


> No. China is not play Asymmetric Warfare game. China will have similar GDP of U.S. in 10 years, and probably twice the GDP of U.S. in another 20 years.
> 
> China would probably dominate west pacific and part of Indian Ocean. Only higher generation, better fighter jet can do that job.
> 
> Using 5th gen technology to modernize 4th gen fighter jet apply Asymmetric Warfare game with much less budget. and it will NOT win for long run.



I am with you on J-20s are the future in this choice:

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/b...-j-20-stealth-fighter-or-j-11d-who-wins-55042

But I recall reading as newer technologies arise, they can be put on existing 4th gen fighters to make many of the 4th gen fighters relevant 10-20 years down the road.

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## Fsjal

viva_zhao said:


> 5th generation is the future. The ROI will be lower and lower if keep investing on 4th generation.


I don't disagree with stealth fighters being the mainstay fighters of the future no doubt, but there's no repercussion in further modernizing current 4.5th gen. fighters using 5th gen. technology, especially since China already has its J-20s in service. It's why I brought up F-15X, and since J-16 more or less uses the same avionics as J-11D then it's not particularly harmful to invest in producing a decent number of J-16s as well as J-10Cs. If we look at the current fighter fleet of the PLAAF today, there's still large numbers of J-7s in service along with smaller number of J-8IIs. It makes sense since replacing hundreds of older fighter jets with newer fighter jets takes a long period of time to do so, with 5th gen. stealth fighters they'll become more affordable by somewhere around the mid-21st century, possibly around 2050s which by then 4.5th gen. will become as obsolete as 3rd gen. is in present day while 6th gen. fighters would be roughly in service by that time frame.

The good thing about further modernizing 4.5th gen. fighters into the future is that you can piggyback them on the technology of stealth fighters by implementing 5th gen. avionics into current airframes.

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## vi-va

zectech said:


> I am with you on J-20s are the future in this choice:
> 
> https://nationalinterest.org/blog/b...-j-20-stealth-fighter-or-j-11d-who-wins-55042
> 
> But I recall reading as newer technologies arise, they can be put on existing 4th gen fighters to make many of the 4th gen fighters relevant 10-20 years down the road.


Sure, why not. Every military upgrade existing assets to keep them relevant. but there are limits 4th gen can do.

In the next 20 years, 4th gen will retire. 5th, 6th are the future. like nobody use iphone 4.

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## zectech

viva_zhao said:


> Sure, why not. Every military upgrade existing assets to keep them relevant. but there are limits 4th gen can do.
> 
> In the next 20 years, 4th gen will retire. 5th, 6th are the future. like nobody use iphone 4.



By 2025, every fighter in production should be 5th gen. Serial production of 4th gen is no longer needed. Both J-31s and J-20Bs will be in full production producing dozens of each per year. J-11s and J-16s are no longer needed in production. But upgrades to current fleet of 4th gen with newer radars and avionics is still a worthy goal. 

Somebody said here on PDF they are waiting for the technology to upgrade the J-10s.


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## LKJ86

J-11B and J-11BS























Via @空军记者 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-16

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## LKJ86

J-11BS




Via @wanquanfoto from Weibo

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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1180506504878800896


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## khanasifm

Avic production t portfolio listing j-15 in videos on YouTube 

This is first time j-11/15/16 are
Listed as avic product ? Not sure what it means


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## LKJ86

khanasifm said:


> Avic production t portfolio listing j-15 in videos on YouTube
> 
> This is first time j-11/15/16 are
> Listed as avic product ? Not sure what it means


Any problems?


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## khanasifm

LKJ86 said:


> Any problems?



I guess does it mean they will start offering for export j-11/15/16 as well ??


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## LKJ86

khanasifm said:


> I guess does it mean they will start offering for export j-11/15/16 as well ??


Is there any relationship between them?


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## LKJ86

J-11B

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## LKJ86

J-11BS

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## jupiter2007

LKJ86 said:


> J-11BS
> View attachment 583229
> View attachment 583230





khanasifm said:


> I guess does it mean they will start offering for export j-11/15/16 as well ??



Which one is the most advanced between J-11/J-15/J-16 and might be available for export?


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## Deino

jupiter2007 said:


> Which one is the most advanced between J-11/J-15/J-16 and might be available for export?



IMO clearly the J-16 (since there are no news concerning the J-11D's fate) and for export? None.

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## LKJ86

J-16














Via kj.81.cn

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## Deino

Another PLAAF brigade is now carrying dedicated unit markings: This is J-16 assigned to the 7th Air Brigade at Wuhu.
(Image via @747-LEE)

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## LKJ86

J-16




Via @爱拍飞机的小屁孩儿 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Su-30MKK

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## LKJ86

J-16




Via @航空新视野-赤卫 from Weibo





Via @垂直风行 from Weibo





Via @那一朵云哟 from Weibo








Via @航空新视野-赤卫 from Weibo





Via @DS谁明浪子心 from Weibo




















Via @卉sama_ from Weibo





Via @哈库纳玛塔塔_Sit from Weibo

















Via @爱拍飞机的小屁孩儿 from Weibo








Via @yvonne-苏苏 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @航空物语 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-16




Via @罗韬1515 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-11BS and J-16
















Via @央视军事 from Weibo

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## onebyone

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1184665729435455489


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## LKJ86

Via @央广军事 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @白龙_龙腾四海 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-11BS










Via kj.81.cn

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## LKJ86

Via @hysplan from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-16




Via ChinaPictorial

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## LKJ86

J-11BS




Via @太湖啥个 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-16














Via @Chengtu小喵 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-11BS




Via @白给_ from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Su-30MKK2

























Via @东海舰队发布 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-11BS




Via @Aero_Jack_Li from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-16




Via @耿直的鲁斯兰 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Su-27SK and Su-27UBK

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## LKJ86

J-16































Via kj.81.cn

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## Fsjal

PLAAF still uses Su-27SK and -UBK? I thought they decommissioned them along with J-11A?


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## LKJ86

Deino said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1135532706937344000
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1135536182614548481







Via @航空物语 from Weibo


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## LKJ86

J-16




Via @白龙_龙腾四海 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @TEDAER from Weibo

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 585667
> 
> Via @TEDAER from Weibo




Can't wait to see the new WS-10 equipped J-10C and even more J-20 that close.


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## LKJ86

J-11BS



















Via @酒色财气吕洞宾 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-16










Via @wanquanfoto from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @空天砺剑 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-16





Via @Neo双垂尾蓝光 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-16






















Via kj.81.cn

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## Deino

How reliable is this post, that the modernised J-11B is called J-11BG??


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1189482728560852992

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## LKJ86

Via www.top81cn.cn

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## HRK

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 587083
> 
> Via www.top81cn.cn


summary .....??

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## Deino

Am I correct to say, the J-11D is dead? ... and at best some items will be used in the J-11B MLU sometimes referred to as the J-11BG?

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## LKJ86

Deino said:


> Am I correct to say, the J-11D is dead? ... and at best some items will be used in the J-11B MLU sometimes referred to as the J-11BG?


Agreed

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> Agreed




Thanks, even if I'm a bit sorrow, the J-11D was a great-looking project, especially the new radome.

Imagine it in grey similar to the J-10B/C?

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## LKJ86

Deino said:


> Thanks, even if I'm a bit sorrow, the J-11D was a great-looking project, especially the new radome.
> 
> Imagine it in grey similar to the J-10B/C?
> 
> View attachment 587086


J-15 will not let you down.

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## vi-va

Deino said:


> Thanks, even if I'm a bit sorrow, the J-11D was a great-looking project, especially the new radome.
> 
> Imagine it in grey similar to the J-10B/C?
> 
> View attachment 587086


If J-11D was born 10 years ago, it definitely has the chance. Too late. New investment will focus on 5th generation jet imo.

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## Su33KUB

Deino said:


> How reliable is this post, that the modernised J-11B is called J-11BG??
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1189482728560852992


The tweet is funny since most of it is written in Chinese and only the japanese part which i can read says it says the J-11 B will be modernized and called J-11BG

whenever you want to distinguish Japanese from Chinese just see Chinese does not use Hiragana and Katakana and some kanjies as in Japanese, chinese ideograms, are called do not share the same writing or meaning, but things like air force, such as Chinese air force are written identical






中国空軍 which means chinese air force in both Chinese and Japanese

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## Fsjal

Deino said:


> Thanks, even if I'm a bit sorrow, the J-11D was a great-looking project, especially the new radome.
> 
> Imagine it in grey similar to the J-10B/C?
> 
> View attachment 587086


That's how I feel too, man. J-11D had a nice futuristic feel to it. Since J-11D is kinda like a single-seater version of J-16, I guess the designers decided to use the D variant's components and place it unto upgraded J-11Bs instead. It'd be a cheaper alternative than simply buying new J-11D airframes, though the J-11D would of had a nice little niche role in replacing the older limited number of Su-27SK and UBK that are still in service.

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## monitor

An Idiot's Guide to Chinese Flankers

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## lcloo

viva_zhao said:


> If J-11D was born 10 years ago, it definitely has the chance. Too late. New investment will focus on 5th generation jet imo.


Agreed. Instead of J11D, a "D" version (D for 电, electronic [warfare]) of J20 might be in the pipe line. If J11D is indeed cancelled, future productions of new versions of J11 and J15 heavy superiority fighter will be unlikely.


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## LKJ86

lcloo said:


> Agreed. Instead of J11D, a "D" version (D for 电, electronic [warfare]) of J20 might be in the pipe line. If J11D is indeed cancelled, future productions of new versions of J11 and J15 heavy superiority fighter will be unlikely.


It would be a good news to SAC's J-11D and FC-31, if the development of J-20 is in trouble, like J-11B and L-15.

But the reality is very cruel to SAC, LOL...


----------



## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> It would be a good news to SAC's J-11D and FC-31, if the development of J-20 is in trouble, like J-11B and L-15.
> 
> But the reality is very cruel to SAC, LOL...




But that's indeed the question: What's now and what's next?

If I'm not wrong, then ...
- production of the J-16 will continue for some years to come
- production of the J-16D and J-15D/J-17 (?) will start but the number of these dedicated types is probably limited
- maybe there is indeed some sort of MLU for the J-11B/BS?
- the more times goes by, the more unlikely is any Batch 3 for the J-15?! ... or am I wrong?
- ... and if the FC-31 is indeed not chosen by the PLAN or even PLAAF I expect SAC to be out of the fighter business

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## LKJ86

Deino said:


> But that's indeed the question: What's now and what's next?
> 
> If I'm not wrong, then ...
> - production of the J-16 will continue for some years to come
> - production of the J-16D and J-15D/J-17 (?) will start but the number of these dedicated types is probably limited
> - maybe there is indeed some sort of MLU for the J-11B/BS?
> - the more times goes by, the more unlikely is any Batch 3 for the J-15?! ... or am I wrong?
> - ... and if the FC-31 is indeed not chosen by the PLAN or even PLAAF I expect SAC to be out of the fighter business


In AVIC, the winner can't take all in history:
(2nd generation) CAC: J-7 SAC: J-8
(3rd generation) CAC: J-10 SAC: J-11
(4th generation) CAC: J-20 SAC: FC-31 ...

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> (4th generation) CAC: J-20 SAC: FC-31 ...




And when will they finally announce the PLA's commitment?


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## lcloo

A photo said suspected to be a J11BG on Huitong's Chinese Military Aviation website.

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## Deino

lcloo said:


> A photo said suspected to be a J11BG on Hutong's Chinese Military Aviation website.
> 
> View attachment 587557



Great !

Otherwise it would be interesting to know - especially since these aircraft are most likely from the 1st Air Brigade at Anshan, which operates the oldest Batch 1 J-11B equipped with the original AL-31F - if they also got the latest WS-10B and what other improved avionics were added.

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## LKJ86

J-11B

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## LKJ86

lcloo said:


> A photo said suspected to be a J11BG on Huitong's Chinese Military Aviation website.
> 
> View attachment 587557

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## Fsjal

Deino said:


> But that's indeed the question: What's now and what's next?
> 
> If I'm not wrong, then ...
> - production of the J-16 will continue for some years to come
> - production of the J-16D and J-15D/J-17 (?) will start but the number of these dedicated types is probably limited
> - maybe there is indeed some sort of MLU for the J-11B/BS?



I think J-16 has a lot of potential in its future to fill in the gap between Sino-Flankers and J-20s. It'll take probably around a couple of decades for the PLAAF to have a decent large amount of J-20s to replace the entire Sino-Flanker fleet. J-16D would nicely fit in with the niche role of EW and SEAD, while an MLU for the J-11B/BS using components from J-16 and J-11D would actually be great for extending their usefulness into the future. If possible, an MLU for J-16 could be possible if the PLAAF was to make the choice of having the J-16 serve right into the far future instead (since J-16 is still a new model).



> I expect SAC to be out of the fighter business


If SAC no longer participates in the fighter business, then CAC would surely have a monopoly over that field. That would be bad since a monopoly in the fighter business means no competition for CAC, and without competitiveness this means less innovation within CAC as well. In the event that the FC-31 actually has no future in the PLA, what SAC could simply do is apply MLU on J-11B/BS and J-16, while also giving themselves a head-start over CAC in developing a 6th-gen. fighter jet. If SAC can't secure its position in Chinese 5th-gen. fighters then maybe jumping on to the next generation could help (but that's implying if SAC continues to participate in the fighter business by the far future of course).

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## vi-va

Fsjal said:


> I think J-16 has a lot of potential in its future to fill in the gap between Sino-Flankers and J-20s. It'll take probably around a couple of decades for the PLAAF to have a decent large amount of J-20s to replace the entire Sino-Flanker fleet. J-16D would nicely fit in with the niche role of EW and SEAD, while an MLU for the J-11B/BS using components from J-16 and J-11D would actually be great for extending their usefulness into the future. If possible, an MLU for J-16 could be possible if the PLAAF was to make the choice of having the J-16 serve right into the far future instead (since J-16 is still a new model).
> 
> 
> If SAC no longer participates in the fighter business, then CAC would surely have a monopoly over that field. That would be bad since a monopoly in the fighter business means no competition for CAC, and without competitiveness this means less innovation within CAC as well. In the event that the FC-31 actually has no future in the PLA, what SAC could simply do is apply MLU on J-11B/BS and J-16, while also giving themselves a head-start over CAC in developing a 6th-gen. fighter jet. If SAC can't secure its position in Chinese 5th-gen. fighters then maybe jumping on to the next generation could help (but that's implying if SAC continues to participate in the fighter business by the far future of course).


Imo, J-31 has a future, in the navy. Navy needs a smaller jet, J-20 is kind of too big. Also I think it can be exported in the long term.


----------



## Deino

Back to the question from what unit the J-11B and J-11BG posted yesterday are: Here it is clearly visible, that at least the J-11B in front has the serial number '61025' and as such is from the first Brigade. For the J-11BG it looks like '61222' (?).























And here are two other images of both aircraft in question; at least for '61025' the red stripes fit and the suspected '61222' before being modified to J-11BG standard still with the old black radome.


----------



## LKJ86

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 587616
> View attachment 587617







Interesting...
Except the radome's colour, everything looks the same...


----------



## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 587715
> 
> Interesting...
> Except the radome's colour, everything looks the same...



That's exactly my concern ... I would even say it still has a pitot, which would indicate, it is not the J-16's AESA. 
And if I should guess I even think it still has the old engines ... looks nearly as if a regular PLAAF J-11B simply got a white radome from a Naval Aviation Su-30MK2.


----------



## LKJ86

Deino said:


> That's exactly my concern ... I would even say it still has a pitot, which would indicate, it is not the J-16's AESA.
> And if I should guess I even think it still has the old engines ... looks nearly as if a regular PLAAF J-11B simply got a white radome from a Naval Aviation Su-30MK2.
> 
> View attachment 587716


yankeesama already said it still had a pitot.


LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 587616
> View attachment 587617


----------



## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> yankeesama already said it still had a pitot.



Unfortunately I cannot read Chinese, but nice that I found out myself !


----------



## LKJ86

Deino said:


> looks nearly as if a regular PLAAF J-11B simply got a white radome from a Naval Aviation Su-30MK2.


I don't think so.


----------



## LKJ86

Su-30MKK








Via @沉默的山羊 from Weibo


----------



## JSCh

*Chinese fighter jet gets long-range radar: reports*
By Liu Xuanzun Source:Global Times Published: 2019/11/5 21:46:07



A J-11B fighter jet with a white radar dome participates in a systematic combat drill at a desert. Photo: screenshot from China Central Television

China reportedly developed a new variant of the J-11B fighter jet with new radar that can see farther and enable long-range missile use, a move that will significantly boost the Chinese Air Force's capability, military experts said on Tuesday.

The fighter jet was seen in a Monday China Central Television (CCTV) report on the upcoming 70th founding anniversary of the People's Liberation Army (PLA) Air Force.

It is participating in a systematic combat drill at a desert, CCTV said, without elaborating.

Unlike other J-11Bs that serve in the PLA Air Force, which have black radar domes (radome), this particular J-11B has a white one, suggesting it is equipped with a new type of radar, reported Weihutang, a column on military affairs affiliated with CCTV, on Monday.

"The reported new radar is likely an active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, which has longer detection capabilities, can better identify targets and enable the use of long-range air-to-air weapons," Wang Ya'nan, chief editor of Aerospace Knowledge magazine, told the Global Times on Tuesday, noting that the Su-27, from which the J-11B was developed, uses mechanically scanned radar that has low detection distance and scan speed.

This will also allow the J-11B to conduct a wider variety of missions, including reconnaissance over sky, sea and land, Wang said.

A J-11B was spotted earlier this year carrying what seemed to be a powerful PL-15 long-range air-to-air missile. Military observers said back then the advanced missile's range is longer than the detection range of the fighter's outdated radar, so the fighter might have to rely on data from other warplanes, like early warning aircraft, to target its enemies.

But with the new radar, the J-11B variant could launch a PL-15 at maximum efficiency on its own, analysts said.

The J-11B variant's participation in a military drill means it could have joined military service, or it is also possible that it was conducting a test or evaluation on its capabilities, Wang said.

If China's vast fleet of J-11s can be outfitted with AESA radars, it will significantly boost the PLA Air Force's overall combat capability, Wang said.

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## LKJ86

JSCh said:


> *Chinese fighter jet gets long-range radar: reports*
> By Liu Xuanzun Source:Global Times Published: 2019/11/5 21:46:07
> 
> 
> 
> A J-11B fighter jet with a white radar dome participates in a systematic combat drill at a desert. Photo: screenshot from China Central Television
> 
> China reportedly developed a new variant of the J-11B fighter jet with new radar that can see farther and enable long-range missile use, a move that will significantly boost the Chinese Air Force's capability, military experts said on Tuesday.
> 
> The fighter jet was seen in a Monday China Central Television (CCTV) report on the upcoming 70th founding anniversary of the People's Liberation Army (PLA) Air Force.
> 
> It is participating in a systematic combat drill at a desert, CCTV said, without elaborating.
> 
> Unlike other J-11Bs that serve in the PLA Air Force, which have black radar domes (radome), this particular J-11B has a white one, suggesting it is equipped with a new type of radar, reported Weihutang, a column on military affairs affiliated with CCTV, on Monday.
> 
> "The reported new radar is likely an active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, which has longer detection capabilities, can better identify targets and enable the use of long-range air-to-air weapons," Wang Ya'nan, chief editor of Aerospace Knowledge magazine, told the Global Times on Tuesday, noting that the Su-27, from which the J-11B was developed, uses mechanically scanned radar that has low detection distance and scan speed.
> 
> This will also allow the J-11B to conduct a wider variety of missions, including reconnaissance over sky, sea and land, Wang said.
> 
> A J-11B was spotted earlier this year carrying what seemed to be a powerful PL-15 long-range air-to-air missile. Military observers said back then the advanced missile's range is longer than the detection range of the fighter's outdated radar, so the fighter might have to rely on data from other warplanes, like early warning aircraft, to target its enemies.
> 
> But with the new radar, the J-11B variant could launch a PL-15 at maximum efficiency on its own, analysts said.
> 
> The J-11B variant's participation in a military drill means it could have joined military service, or it is also possible that it was conducting a test or evaluation on its capabilities, Wang said.
> 
> If China's vast fleet of J-11s can be outfitted with AESA radars, it will significantly boost the PLA Air Force's overall combat capability, Wang said.







It is still a J-11B, not so-called J-11BG.


----------



## Deino

Here another image of that J-11BG with either '61222' or '61227' assigned to the 1st Air Brigade with some details for speculation. 

(Image via Huitong's CMA-Blog)


----------



## lcloo

Deino said:


> Here another image of that J-11BG with either '61222' or '61227' assigned to the 1st Air Brigade with some details for speculation.
> 
> (Image via Huitong's CMA-Blog)
> 
> View attachment 587801
> View attachment 587802


I think this is a 01 batch J11B, which could have served more than 10 years, so MLU modification should be in place. 

Early batches of J11A and J11B 's biggest weakness are (1) the exposed engine fan blades give large radar return, and (2) the radar is less efficient than most contemporary ones used in PLAAF J16 and some neighbouring countries.

Upgrading of above (1) and (2), other sensors and possibly engine are likely to be part of MLU program. Whether the photo of the white radome aircraft is the actual J11BG or an evaluation/test bed for J11BG will have to be wait and see.


----------



## Deino

Well it seems as if there are at least already two J-11BGs with that light grey radome available.
(Image via www.81.cn)


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## LKJ86

Deino said:


> - maybe there is indeed some sort of MLU for the J-11B/BS?


It is not the job of SAC.

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> It is not the job of SAC.




Really? Who then is responsible?


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## LKJ86

Deino said:


> Really? Who then is responsible?


The MLU of J-10 also isn't the job of CAC.


----------



## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> The MLU of J-10 also isn't the job of CAC.



Ok, I expect this one of the main avionics supplier in close cooperation with the maintenance stations/facilities, but si it known, who's responsible for the J-11BG MLU ... and since you mentioned it, for the J-10 MLU?


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## LKJ86

Deino said:


> Ok, I expect this one of the main avionics supplier in close cooperation with the maintenance stations/facilities, but si it known, who's responsible for the J-11BG MLU ... and since you mentioned it, for the J-10 MLU?


I think you can get some informations from the MLU of JF-17 in China.


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## Fsjal

Definitely nice to know that J-11B fleet will probably have avionics upgrade to keep them relevant in the coming years. If it is indeed AESA radars then that means the PLAAF will save a lot of money than buying newly-built J-11Ds (plus it's a great way to reinforce the fleet of J-10Cs and J-16s).

Also, does anyone know the names of Chinese military radar manufacturers? The only one I know is Nanjing Research Institute of Electronic Technology.


----------



## LKJ86

J-11B/BS

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## Deino

A J-16 assigned to the 7th Air Brigade.

(Image via yangheng via Huitong's CMA-Blog)

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## LKJ86

J-16


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## LKJ86

Via kj.81.cn

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## LKJ86

J-16










Via CCTV 7 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

Su-30MKK










Via CCTV 7 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @罪恶大天使 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-16




Via @忠诚又绝对的耗子 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-16




Via @超大菜鸟耶夫斯基 from Weibo

Happy birthday to PLAAF!!!

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## LKJ86

J-16 and J-11B










Via CCTV 7 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-16







Via @人民画报 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-11B/BS



















Via www.81.cn

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## LKJ86

J-16







Via CCTV 7 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-11BSH










Via @海军航空大学 from Weixin

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## Deino

A J-16D ... but is it a production model and no longer one of the prototypes?

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## Deino

Yet another image of a J-16D EW-variant was posted ... I would like to know if these recent series of new images are still showing the old prototype(s) or if they are finally new-built serial aircraft?
(Image via @ZBAA阿泰/Weibo)

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## Tempest II

http://alert5.com/2019/12/10/plaaf-j-11-beat-rtaf-gripen-16-0-on-first-day-of-falcon-strike-2015/

PLAAF J-11 beat RTAF Gripen 16-0 on first day of Falcon Strike 2015

A talk was given at China’s Northwestern Polytechnical University on Dec. 9. The speaker was reported to be Li Zhonghua who is said to have participated in Exercise Falcon Strike 2015 in Thailand. One of the slides showed the score during each day of the exercise and during the first day, the Thais flying the Gripen were beaten 16-0.
￼
Source unknown

Another slide shows that although the Thais did very badly on the first day. These were dogfights and the Gripen fared better in the beyond-visual-range (BVR) arena. With 24 percent of the kills at range beyond 50km.
￼
There were important lessons for the Chinese side. This slide explains that the Chinese pilots had poor situation awareness. Too much focus was on front of the aircraft rather than all round. There was a lack of coordination between the attacking aircraft and its sweeper escorts. The pilots were not experience in avoiding missile shots. Their response were too mechanical and could not judge correctly on the evasive techniques for missiles with different ranges.
￼

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## LKJ86

Via @航空工业 from Weibo


----------



## LKJ86

J-11BH













Via @南部强军号 from Weixin

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## Deino

The smaller KG700 ECM pod is quite well known on the J-11B, but this seems to be the the larger KG800 so far only seen on the JH-7A and H-6J.

(Image via 鹰击-长空/cjdby.net-Forum)

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## DESERT FIGHTER

What is the most advanced J series flanker?


----------



## lcloo

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> What is the most advanced J series flanker?


J16


----------



## LKJ86

lcloo said:


> J16


J-20: What???


----------



## lcloo

LKJ86 said:


> J-20: What???


He asked for the most advance J series *Flanker*. i.e. J11/15/16 series.

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## LKJ86

lcloo said:


> He asked for the most advance J series *Flanker*. i.e. J11/15/16 series.


I just missed the word "flanker".

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> I just missed the word "flanker".



No problem and don't be too harsh to yourself ... if this is the only mistake you made this years - at least here at the PDF - I think You still can be proud of what you contributed.

Thanks a lot and best for 2020.

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## lcloo

LKJ86 said:


> I just missed the word "flanker".



Just a very small minor mistake, don't blame yourself.

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## LKJ86

J-16Q










Via @拓城模型TopgunChen from Weibo

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## LKJ86

By 沈玲

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## LKJ86

J-11B
















Via kj.81.cn

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## LKJ86

J-11BH and J-11BSH

























Via @央广军事 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-11B




Via @刀尖舞者 from Weixin and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo


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## LKJ86

J-11BS







Via @央视军事报道 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-11BS




Via @白龙_龙腾四海 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-11B and J-11BS

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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1218423163006091264

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## LKJ86

J-11BS

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## LKJ86

J-11B and J-11BS

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## LKJ86

Via kj.81.cn

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1219721720447156224

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## LKJ86

J-16


































Via CCTV 1 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## j20blackdragon

J-16 has reached 05 batch production.





J-10B/C has reached 04 batch production.





All of these planes have PESA/AESA radar.

All of these planes are equipped with PL-15.

All of these planes are networked together with a modern tactical data link.

This is easily the most powerful _*4th generation*_ air force in Asia.

I wonder how many people realize this?

Oh, and China also purchased 24 Su-35 from Russia. Almost forgot to mention.

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## LKJ86

J-11B










Via @空军发布 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-11B and J-11BS































Via @空军新闻 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

PL-10 AAM launched from J-16













Via CCTV 1 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-11B




Via CCTV 7 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> J-11B
> View attachment 602198
> 
> Via CCTV 7 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo
> 
> View attachment 602202



A J-11BG and given that red stripe this could be one from the 19th Air Brigade ... or are there any info concerning, where this was taken?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1222576362919288834


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## Haris Ali2140

Deino said:


> A J-11BG and given that red stripe this could be one from the 19th Air Brigade ... or are there any info concerning, where this was taken?
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1222576362919288834


G for Growler???


----------



## Deino

Haris Ali2140 said:


> G for Growler???



I think it stands for "Gai" = improved


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1222582559852453889

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## LKJ86

J-11B

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## LKJ86

J-11B










Via kj.81.cn

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## LKJ86

J-11BH, J-11BSH, and JH-7A




Via @FY-神华 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-11BS, J-11A/Su-27SK, and Su-27UBK

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## LKJ86

J-16




Via @空天砺剑 from Weibo




















Via kj.81.cn

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## LKJ86

Su-30MKK2




























Via @东海舰队发布 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-11BS































Via kj.81.cn

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## LKJ86

J-11BSH




Via @Fortress-45 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-11B and J-11BS




Via @空军发布 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-11BS

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## LKJ86

J-11BH and J-11BSH 




























Via @当代海军 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-11BSH










Via @央视军事报道 from Weixin

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## Deino

For the first time a J-16 - assigned to the 40th Air Brigade - was spootted carrying YJ-83K AShMs.

(Images via CCTV-7)

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## LKJ86

J-16

























Via CCTV 7 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo


----------



## jupiter2007

Pakistan need J-16 ASAP.


----------



## Ultima Thule

jupiter2007 said:


> Pakistan need J-16 ASAP.


Not possible, because design is Russian Intellectual property (Su-27/Su-30 series of jets)


----------



## jupiter2007

seven0seven said:


> Not possible, because design is Russian Intellectual property (Su-27/Su-30 series of jets)



J-16 is slightly different than J-11 and SU-27 and it can be further customize for Pakistan. Didn’t China sell hundreds of J-7 variants which were copy of Russian MiG-21?


----------



## Ultima Thule

jupiter2007 said:


> J-16 is slightly different than J-11 and SU-27 and it can be further customize for Pakistan. Didn’t China sell hundreds of J-7 variants which were copy of Russian MiG-21?


Oh bhai this happened when China had have Sino-Russian split, and Russians gets smart afterwards, on the very first deal of su-27 with China Russians put a clause that they are not able to export any su-27 and its copies to 3rd party,and by the way as for your information J-16 is based on Russian Su-30MKK/2


----------



## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1229321385018888192


----------



## Pakistani Fighter

seven0seven said:


> Oh bhai this happened when China had have Sino-Russian split, and Russians gets smart afterwards, on the very first deal of su-27 with China Russians put a clause that they are not able to export any su-27 and its copies to 3rd party,and by the way as for your information J-16 is based on Russian Su-30MKK/2


Well Maybe if we Pay Russians some money for it maybe they will. In this way we can get J 16s and Russians will not invite Anger from Indians


----------



## Deino

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Well Maybe if we Pay Russians some money for it maybe they will. In this way we can get J 16s and Russians will not invite Anger from Russians




Oh well, maybe beter to cone to reality and as such simply forget these wet-dreams, China won't sell the Flankers in the same way it won't sell J-20s and even more the PAF cannot afford them.


----------



## Pakistani Fighter

Deino said:


> Oh well, maybe beter to cone to reality and as such simply forget these wet-dreams, China won't sell the Flankers in the same way it won't sell J-20s and even more the PAF cannot afford them.


But why Flankers? They are not 5th gen


----------



## Deino

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> But why Flankers? They are not 5th gen



Since the contract with Russia explicitly forbid this.


----------



## LKJ86

Deino said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1229321385018888192


Do you think PLA would use YJ-83K all the time?


----------



## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> Do you think PLA would use YJ-83K all the time?



Surely not, but as I stated, I thought - and still think as long as we haven't seen a YJ-12 under a J-16 - this one is too large and heavy. Therefore I won't be surprised if it ix another new type of ASM.


----------



## LKJ86

Deino said:


> this one is too large and heavy


What are its weight and size?


----------



## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> What are its weight and size?




I have no data at hand, but comparisons with those on the H-6L my quess is, it is loo large and heavy - larger and heavier than a Brahmos - to fit two under a Flanker's wing. 
Even between the engines would be a surprise IMO.

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## LKJ86

Deino said:


> I have no data at hand, but comparisons with those on the H-6L my quess is, it is loo large and heavy - larger and heavier than a Brahmos - to fit two under a Flanker's wing.
> Even between the engines would be a surprise IMO.


Now, I understand that why you are always surprised.

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## LKJ86

Via @航空工业 from Weibo


----------



## Haris Ali2140

@LKJ86 What's the difference between J-11, J-15 and J-16???


----------



## azesus

J-11 = licenced Su-27SK ... J-11B further development with WS-10A and Chinese avionics
J-11BS = unlicenced Su-27UBK
J-15 = unlicenced Su-33 (carrier-borne fighter)
J-16 = twin-seater, striker, vased on Su-30MKK

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## juj06750

J11 licensed production of SU27SK
J11A licensed production of SU27SK but chinese indigenous radar
J11B 100% indigenous production (including engines, AESA radar, etc)
J15 carrier variant based on J11B 
J16 striker variant based on J11B

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenyang_J-11

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## Deino

juj06750 said:


> J11 licensed production of SU27SK
> J11A licensed production of SU27SK but chinese indigenous radar
> J11B 100% indigenous production (including engines, AESA radar, etc)
> J15 carrier variant based on J11B
> J16 striker variant based on J11B
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenyang_J-11




That's wrong for both the A and B, since the A does not have a Chinese radar and the B has no AESA.

You not even read Wiki properly!


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## juj06750

sure it is 
J11A is chinese pulse doppler radar
J11B is chinese first AESA radar
now it's been more than 10 years we've run AESA
we make the world's best AESA now


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## Deino

juj06750 said:


> sure it is
> J11A is chinese pulse doppler radar
> J11B is chinese first AESA radar
> now it's been more than 10 years we've run AESA
> we make the world's best AESA now




No it is not and I don't know why you think such a BS is correct. The J-11A uses the regular Russian N001 radar, while later ones eventually received the improved N001VE radar, which anyway uses a Twist cassegrain antenna.







The J-11B then was the first one fitted with a more modern Chinese multifunction PD-radar (Type 1493) similar to the US APG-63/-65.




Could it be that you mix your claim with the latest J-11D!?? But neither the J-11A or B uses an AESA.

Otherwise I kindly ask You for any proof, since not even your Wiki-link you posted mentions this.

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## juj06750

a good example is; as in the above
J11B is equipped with PL15, which ranges up to 300km against AWACS size
J10C/J11B/J15/J16/J20 are mighty AESA radar, which is capable of firing long range AAM
only strong AESA could home such long range AAM


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## Deino

juj06750 said:


> View attachment 607566
> a good example is; as in the above
> J11B is equipped with PL15, which ranges up to 300km against AWACS size
> J10C/J11B/J15/J16/J20 are mighty AESA radar, which is capable of firing long range AAM
> only strong AESA could home such long range AAM



Oh come one ... one single image showing a PL-15 is for your proof that the whole fleet uses an AESA radar even if all reliable posters assume this only to be included in the latest J-11BG... come on.


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## LKJ86

J-11BH
















Via @南海舰队 from Weixin


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## kungfugymnast

juj06750 said:


> View attachment 607566
> a good example is; as in the above
> J11B is equipped with PL15, which ranges up to 300km against AWACS size
> J10C/J11B/J15/J16/J20 are mighty AESA radar, which is capable of firing long range AAM
> only strong AESA could home such long range AAM



J11B can could carry PL15 even without AESA as the long range missile guidance system could be assisted by AWACS. Deino is actually right, the J11B is using China made improved version of pulse doppler radar and the engines are still Su27 engines. However there are rumored plans of upgrade and probably few J11B being served as testbed for new AESA & WS10 engines following Su27SM2 foot steps. J11D is the actual new China single seat flanker with AESA and WS10 engines equivalent to Russian Su27SM3.

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## LKJ86

J-11BSH
February 21, 2020



















Via @海军新闻 from Weixin


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## LKJ86

kungfugymnast said:


> the J11B is using China made improved version of pulse doppler radar and the engines are still Su27 engines.


J-11B is equipped with WS-10 engines and China's avionics and ammunitions.



kungfugymnast said:


> J11D is the actual new China single seat flanker with AESA and WS10 engines equivalent to Russian Su27SM3.


J-11D is equivalent to Russia's Su-35.


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## LKJ86

J-16




Via @疯子白杨 from Weibo


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## LKJ86

J-15 & J-16



















Via @拓城模型TopgunChen from Weibo


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## LKJ86

J-11BH and J-11BSH




























Via @人民海军 from Weibo


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## LKJ86

J-11B and J-11BS

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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1232296046769967104

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## juj06750

foreigners,
please do NOT write here in what you wish 
again, J11B is our first AESA radar in 2010
since then we made AESA series like J10B/J10C/J15/J16/J20
Russia still can't make AESA 
In addition J11D was just testbed for more powerful indigenous system in 2015;
we never induct it; plus it is NOT relevant to any russian system (SU30/SU35)
since J11B was introduced, everything has been 100% indigenous;
since then we've no longer needed any russian; bye bye Russia 
foreigners, please do NOT connect us to Russia any more simply because you hate China
or after you guess based on pro-american media


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## Deino

juj06750 said:


> View attachment 609097
> ...
> again, J11B is our first AESA radar in 2010
> since then we made AESA series like J10B/J10C/J15/J16/J20




Again, instead of posting ridiculous claims, that are against anything accepted, prove t!

Where is written - even more show it in imagery - that the J-11B uses an AESA? ...esp. interesting, since all images we know from the J-11B's radar clearly show it is none.

The same for the J-15 and why do you think the J-10B also has one when all sources say it uses a PESA only?

Prove it.

By the way, "I hate China!" is the most ridiculous claim I read today.


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## juj06750

first, the most important proof
you prove you like China
otherwise you sound ridiculous

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## Deino

juj06750 said:


> first, the most important proof
> you prove you like China
> otherwise you sound ridiculous




Care to explain instead of avoiding an answer?

Otherwise the only one who is ridiculous is You... so what about J-10B and J-15 having an AESA? 

No-one but you claims this and you think you are right?


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## juj06750

you're the only image hog; 
always curious about our weapon and wonder if it's Chinese-made
but don't listen to Chinese
by doing so . you never see China

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## Deino

juj06750 said:


> you're the only image hog;
> always curious about our weapon and wonder if it's Chinese-made
> but don't listen to Chinese
> by doing so . you never see China



Again I beg your pardon, and maybe it is some sort of cultural difference, but if you tell me there is talk, that there is a green apple hanging on a certain tree - aka an AESA radar on an J-11B - and then an image shows this




... aka an Orange!

Or back to my comparison a J-11B with clearly NOT an AESA:









Then I think the question is valid, why you think this is still a green apple or an AESA.


Problem is, that there is talk everywhere: Some even here talk about a combat ready +240kN TVC serial WS-15 in all J-20s already now, there si talk about little green men on Mars and there is talk that India will soon field the Tejas Mk. 2, wiull develop the Orca and a twin-engined stealth type ... and similar there is talk about an AESA in the J-11B, but all imagery proof so far says exactly the opposite.

So again instaed of telling me I won't never understand CHina, at least try to explain ...

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## GeHAC

juj06750 said:


> you're the only image hog;
> always curious about our weapon and wonder if it's Chinese-made
> but don't listen to Chinese
> by doing so . you never see China



The claim that J11B is the first domestic AESA carrier is absolutely wrong.

国内军圈都没混明白就别乱发帖了。


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## Deino

However I would prefer to see the Block 03 J-15 flying!


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1233012130825342976


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## IblinI

J16

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## LKJ86

Su-30MKK2










Via 解放军画报

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## LKJ86

J-11BS




Via @空军在线 from Weixin


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## LKJ86

Via @万全 from Weibo


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## Tanveer666

juj06750 said:


> View attachment 609097
> foreigners,
> please do NOT write here in what you wish
> again, J11B is our first AESA radar in 2010
> since then we made AESA series like J10B/J10C/J15/J16/J20
> Russia still can't make AESA
> In addition J11D was just testbed for more powerful indigenous system in 2015;
> we never induct it; plus it is NOT relevant to any russian system (SU30/SU35)
> since J11B was introduced, everything has been 100% indigenous;
> since then we've no longer needed any russian; bye bye Russia
> foreigners, please do NOT connect us to Russia any more simply because you hate China
> or after you guess based on pro-american media


Whatever helps you sleep at night


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## LKJ86

J-11B




Via @万全 from Weibo

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## Deino

What do you think about this tweet:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1236344409421017092


> According to an air brigade PV from PLAAF Dandong, the unit is using a fighter jet, the J-11B / BS, which will soon receive a new fighter.



https://www.bilibili.com/video/av68821266


I'm a bit confused, since these J-11B/BS are clearly from the 89th Air Brigade at Pulandian, while the brigade at Dangong is the 88th still flying J-7Es, so could it be that not the 1st Air Brigade at Anshan will get J-20s but the 89th at Pulandian?

Deino


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## kungfugymnast

LKJ86 said:


> J-11B is equipped with WS-10 engines and China's avionics and ammunitions.
> 
> 
> J-11D is equivalent to Russia's Su-35.



J11B only later being upgraded with WS10 engines in batches. 

J11D earlier version without TVC is equivalent to Su27SM3. The newer one has better radar than Su35 Irbis-E but the Su35 still having more powerful thrusts.


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## LKJ86

kungfugymnast said:


> J11B only later being upgraded with WS10 engines in batches.
> 
> J11D earlier version without TVC is equivalent to Su27SM3. The newer one has better radar than Su35 Irbis-E but the Su35 still having more powerful thrusts.


@Deino


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## juj06750

again,
only initial batch of J11B is russian engine;
most J11B have since been chinese engine
and J11D was just testbed for stronger indigenous system in 2015;
there's only prototype; never produced; and nothing relevant to any russian jet
once again, to foreigners
plz just leave if you're NO tangible clue on your claim
I hope this value forum is not for demanding but for supplying


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## Deino

juj06750 said:


> again,
> only initial batch of J11B is russian engine;
> most J11B have since been chinese engine
> and J11D was just testbed for stronger indigenous system in 2015;
> there's only prototype; never produced; and nothing relevant to any russian jet
> once again, to foreigners
> plz just leave if you're NO tangible clue on your claim
> I hope this value forum is not for demanding but for supplying




And again from me. I think everyone is welcome to post, contribute and discuss but to be taken seriously one has to prove his claims, esp. when they are contradicting common knowledge.

Therefore again, if the J-11B uses as AESA, it might be fine, but then you need to explain why the images i showed you do not show an AESA, but a standard radar and why not even a single image is known showing one? Also, why most reliable sources don't agree with you?

Therefore it is you who must supply ... 

Best


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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> @Deino




This alone is plain wrong since the J-11B was not later upgraded to the WS-10, it was to feature this engine from the beginning. 

However when production of the batch 01 was underway - in fact all assigned kater to the now 1st Air Brigade at Anshan - the Taihang prooved to be troubled and sk it was decided to use the AL-31F instead as in all J-11A fighters. Only from Batch 02 these issues were solved and since then no PLAAF Flanker ever was built with the Russian engine.


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## LKJ86

J-11B and J-11BS

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## Deino

The 89th Air Brigade ...

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## LKJ86

J-11BS
March 5, 2020

















































Via @空军新闻 from Weixin


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## LKJ86

J-11BS




Via @军报记者 from Weibo


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## LKJ86

J-11BS


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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1239116401899646976


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## Haris Ali2140

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1236716532283015168
Someone needs to take notes!!!!

@Stealth @Trailer23

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## Deino

Haris Ali2140 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1236716532283015168
> Someone needs to take notes!!!!
> 
> @Stealth @Trailer23




Why?


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## Haris Ali2140

Deino said:


> Why?


For better commercialisation of their products.


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## Deino

Haris Ali2140 said:


> For better commercialisation of their products.




May I ask, what are they commercialising and how this is related to the J-16?


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## Haris Ali2140

Deino said:


> May I ask, what are they commercialising and how this is related to the J-16?


I am talking about PAC/PAF and JF-17. They can make a similar video.


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## kungfugymnast

Deino said:


> This alone is plain wrong since the J-11B was not later upgraded to the WS-10, it was to feature this engine from the beginning.
> 
> However when production of the batch 01 was underway - in fact all assigned kater to the now 1st Air Brigade at Anshan - the Taihang prooved to be troubled and sk it was decided to use the AL-31F instead as in all J-11A fighters. Only from Batch 02 these issues were solved and since then no PLAAF Flanker ever was built with the Russian engine.



I agree with you as I see most J11B fitted with Russian engines from the start and present due to WS10 was not perfected and not ready until later. Fans love to see WS10 in J11B as standard engine but only to replace the really worn out Russian AL31F or for testing purpose. Reason being the new WS10 engines supplies focus on fitting newer fighters instead, the same goes to AESA radars. Better to build more new fighters fitted with new AESA and WS10 rather than upgrading old fighters that would serve another 10 years, better keep the old fighters maintained and use up all available parts until phase out. 

@LKJ86
Deino answer is the same as mine. Explanation given above.


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## Deino

kungfugymnast said:


> I agree with you as I see most J11B fitted with Russian engines from the start and present due to WS10 was not perfected and not ready until later. Fans love to see WS10 in J11B as standard engine but only to replace the really worn out Russian AL31F or for testing purpose. Reason being the new WS10 engines supplies focus on fitting newer fighters instead, the same goes to AESA radars. Better to build more new fighters fitted with new AESA and WS10 rather than upgrading old fighters that would serve another 10 years, better keep the old fighters maintained and use up all available parts until phase out.
> 
> @LKJ86
> Deino answer is the same as mine. Explanation given above.




Pardon, and even if I agree with you, but that's partially wrong: Not most of the J-11Bs are using the Russian engine, but only those from Batch 01 (IMO about 24 aircraft): All others from Batch 02 to Batch 07 and all J-11BS and J-16s are using already the WS-10 from day one. But you are correct, it would be great, if all J-11As might be reengined.


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## LKJ86

kungfugymnast said:


> I see most J11B fitted with Russian engines from the start


Maybe you mistake J-11A/Su-27SK and Su-27UBK for J-11B and J-11BS.

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## bahadur999

*Chinese military aircraft to receive new stealth coatings*
By Liu Xuanzun Source: Globaltimes.cn Published: 2020/3/16 0:54:57







A J-16 fighter jet attached to an aviation brigade of the air force under the PLA Western Theater Command sits on the parking apron while receiving power-on inspections prior to a flight training exercise in southwestern China's Chongqing Municipality on March 6, 2018. Photo: eng.chinamil.com.cn


The Chinese People's Liberation Army (PLA) Air Force recently issued a new regulation ordering future aircraft to be painted with low observable coatings and standardized markings, a move aimed at giving Chinese warplanes a combat advantage as they will less likely be detected by both the naked eye and military radar.

The regulation mandates all new warplanes should have low observable coatings and markings, and in-service warplanes should also have standardized markings, including those of the national flag, Chinese Air Force insignia, and the Red Cross, the PLA Daily reported on Friday. 

It is a combat requirement and development trend that military aircraft have low observable paintings to reduce visible detection, which also indicate combat capabilities, according to the regulation.

Paintings and markings can help protect an aircraft from corrosions and allow others to identify an aircraft's country of origin. Using similar sky colors, usually gray, light blue, and silver, also makes human eye detection difficult for the enemy, analysts said.

It was under this way of thinking that countries, including the US, developed low observable coatings and markings that would help planes blend into their environment, which has been proven to be useful during combat, Ordnance Industry Science Technology, a Xi'an-based magazine on the national defense industry, reported on Saturday.

China has also created low observable coatings and tested them prior to the new regulation. 

Besides the J-20 stealth fighter jet that focuses on low observability for both the human eye and radars, China has been experimenting with low observable coatings on its J-16 fighter jet since 2018, the magazine reported.

The J-16, based on the non-stealth fighter jet Su-27, now features a dark gray coat instead of its original bluish-gray tone and has replaced its original Air Force insignia with a light gray design.

The new coat will provide the J-16 a level of stealth capabilities not only against the naked eye but also with electromagnetic devices, said Chinese Air Force pilot Jiang Jiaji last year on China Central Television.

The new coating can reduce detection by radar, air defense expert Fu Qianshao previously told the Global Times.

Having tested the new coatings and markings on the J-20 stealth and J-16, which have proven to be technically mature and useful, the Air Force is ready to expand their use on all warplanes, including fighter jets, bombers, cargo planes, and special mission aircraft, said a military expert who requested not to be named to the Global Times on Sunday.

This will result in an overall combat capability boost for the Air Force, the expert said.

The new regulation will be implemented gradually throughout 2020, the PLA Daily reported.

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## Trailer23

Haris Ali2140 said:


> I am talking about PAC/PAF and JF-17. They can make a similar video.


Yaar, uus



ko dafa karo... Wo sirf har forum pay mod banay kay kuab daikta rh-ta hai.

Sorry for the late response, I was a bit busy finalizing the Tribute vid.

Yeah, this is a pretty good Promotional Vid, but i've noticed that though the Chinese have great production skills - they lack in certain parts. This video appears a carbon copy version of the J-20.

But yeah, the PAF/PAC need to up their game 'cause the footage used at the Air Shows at the PAF/PAC Pavillion is crap.


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## zhxy

Will China order a large number of Su-57 from Russia and receive TOT. Thus, China will have 3 5th generation aircraft including Su-57, J-20 and J-31


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## Deino

zhxy said:


> Will China order a large number of Su-57 from Russia and receive TOT. Thus, China will have 3 5th generation aircraft including Su-57, J-20 and J-31




No... simply no.

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## LKJ86

zhxy said:


> Will China order a large number of Su-57 from Russia and receive TOT. Thus, China will have 3 5th generation aircraft including Su-57, J-20 and J-31





Deino said:


> No... simply no.


If India, Vietnam and others have bought Su-57, maybe PLAAF would take some for test.

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## zhxy

LKJ86 said:


> If India, Vietnam and others have bought Su-57, maybe PLAAF would take some for test.


 I am not sure. India and Vietnam both buy T-90s. But China doesn't care about Russian tanks. The SU-57 has many problems and will not be ready for export in the next 5 years.


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## LKJ86

zhxy said:


> The SU-57 has many problems and will not be ready for export in the next 5 years.


So, why do you think China would buy Su-57?


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## zhxy

Because the problems of the Su-57 will be solved in 5 years, and China is the only country in the world that can order a large amount of Su-57 to receive TOT.


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## LKJ86

zhxy said:


> Because the problems of the Su-57 will be solved in 5 years, and China is the only country in the world that can order a large amount of Su-57 to receive TOT.


Why does China have to pay that bill?

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## Deino

zhxy said:


> Because the problems of the Su-57 will be solved in 5 years, and China is the only country in the world that can order a large amount of Su-57 to receive TOT.




First of all if this mess is all solved in 5 years needs to be seen and second, why should China then buy a foreign design, when the J-20 is available already since 2016 and ready for operational service?



zhxy said:


> I am not sure. India and Vietnam both buy T-90s. But China doesn't care about Russian tanks. The SU-57 has many problems and will not be ready for export in the next 5 years.




*If you want to continue the Su-57's export chances then please go ahead in the Russian section, but not here in the PLAAF Flanker thread.*

*Thanks.*


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## juj06750

zhxy said:


> Will China order a large number of Su-57 from Russia and receive TOT. Thus, China will have 3 5th generation aircraft including Su-57, J-20 and J-31



russia will order a large number of J-20 stealth jet fighters from China; and vietnam will do the following 
china officially declared it no longer buys any russian arms after its annoying trade of SU35 and S400 with russia in 2017; chinese military vice president 張又俠 announced that china will NEVER buy any russian arms again when he visited to russian president on December 2017; in other words china strongly asks russia not to bother it any more for the sale of russian arms; now china believes that russia no longer makes competent amrs due to the lack of money and china develops much better and more reliable arms than russia 

*http://www.mod.gov.cn/big5/leaders/2017-12/08/content_4799425.htm*

*
*


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## Deino

juj06750 said:


> russia will order a large number of J-20 stealth jet fighters from China; and vietnam will do the following
> china officially declared it no longer buys any russian arms after its annoying trade of SU35 and S400 with russia in 2017; chinese military vice president 張又俠 announced that china will NEVER buy any russian arms again when he visited to russian president on December 2017; in other words china strongly asks russia not to bother it any more for the sale of russian arms; now china believes that russia no longer makes competent amrs due to the lack of money and china develops much better and more reliable arms than russia
> 
> 
> 來源︰國防部網責任編輯︰湯傳飛2017-12-08 00:11
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *
> *12月7日下午，俄羅斯總統普京在莫斯科會見了到訪的中共中央政治局委員、中央軍委副主席張又俠。李曉偉 攝*
> 
> *12月7日，俄羅斯總統普京在莫斯科會見了到訪的中共中央政治局委員、中央軍委副主席張又俠。張又俠首先轉達了習近平主席對普京總統的誠摯問候和良好祝願。普京總統表示感謝並請轉達對習近平主席的親切問候和美好祝願。*
> 
> *普京說，對華關系是俄對外關系的重點方向，俄方高度評價中俄高水平戰略協作。中俄雙方在許多重大國際和地區事務中擁有相同或相似的立場，雙方應進一步加強溝通協調，共同維護世界和地區和平穩定。中俄軍事合作在兩國關系中具有重要地位，希望雙方繼續加強在聯合演習、軍事比賽、人員培訓等領域合作，不斷提升兩軍關系水平。*
> 
> *張又俠說，習近平主席在中共十九大上作出中國特色社會主義進入新時代的重大戰略判斷，意味著中國與世界的關系進入新時代，中俄關系迎來新的發展機遇。在兩國元首的戰略引領和推動下，中俄全面戰略協作伙伴關系不斷邁上新台階，兩國關系處于歷史最好時期。中俄兩軍關系日益拓展深化，務實合作成效顯著。中方願與俄方一道，按照兩國元首達成的重要共識，繼續相互支持，共同維護兩國安全利益和世界和平穩定。*
> 
> *軍委裝備發展部部長李尚福、駐俄大使李輝、軍委聯合參謀部副參謀長馬宜明、軍委裝備發展部副部長劉勝等會見時在座。*




This is a fake or at least a too early April 1st fool's day joke!

So please provide a source ... otherwise I would say, with this post your already low-credibility goes even more sown the drain.


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## juj06750

zhxy said:


> Because the problems of the Su-57 will be solved in 5 years, and China is the only country in the world that can order a large amount of Su-57 to receive TOT.



I really do NOT believe russia will solve many problems of SU57 jet fighter program in the next five years; I carefully expect russia would NOT be able to finish up the program because of the lack of money; nowadays russia took dozens of years even when it just repairs its old warships; now russia desperately looks to export its arms (especially to India) in order to feed its dying arms industry


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## Deino

juj06750 said:


> I really do NOT believe russia will solve many problems of SU57 jet fighter program in the next five years; I carefully expect russia would NOT be able to finish up the program because of the lack of money; nowadays russia took dozens of years even when it just repairs its old warships; now russia desperately looks to export its arms (especially to India) in order to feed its dying arms industry




But that does not make any sense, ... quite to the contrary it is even more ridiculous: First you claim or ask, if CHina will purchase large numbers of Su-57 since its issues will be solved in 5 years and then it will be cheep for sale and then you claim Russia and Vietnam are purchasing a huge number of J-20s.

It does not make any sense at all.


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## juj06750

Deino said:


> This is a fake or at least a too early April 1st fool's day joke!
> So please provide a source ... otherwise I would say, with this post your already low-credibility goes even more sown the drain.





Deino said:


> But that does not make any sense, ... quite to the contrary it is even more ridiculous: First you claim or ask, if CHina will purchase large numbers of Su-57 since its issues will be solved in 5 years and then it will be cheep for sale and then you claim Russia and Vietnam are purchasing a huge number of J-20s.
> It does not make any sense at all.



again
deino, listen to what chinese say (if you want to know us)
unless, you never know; you only see the image 
those newcomers who hate china periodically keep asking the same questions here
(then ask yourself, NOT here)
listen to china!


----------



## kungfugymnast

LKJ86 said:


> Maybe you mistake J-11A/Su-27SK and Su-27UBK for J-11B and J-11BS.



First J11B gets improved pulse doppler radar and Russian engines. Development of WS10A replica copy of Russian engines start with production model J11B.


----------



## PeacefulWar

Deino said:


> But that does not make any sense, ... quite to the contrary it is even more ridiculous: First you claim or ask, if CHina will purchase large numbers of Su-57 since its issues will be solved in 5 years and then it will be cheep for sale and then you claim Russia and Vietnam are purchasing a huge number of J-20s.
> 
> It does not make any sense at all.


There is ZERO credibility/logic in his words.
Better to ignore him.


----------



## kungfugymnast

Deino said:


> Pardon, and even if I agree with you, but that's partially wrong: Not most of the J-11Bs are using the Russian engine, but only those from Batch 01 (IMO about 24 aircraft): All others from Batch 02 to Batch 07 and all J-11BS and J-16s are using already the WS-10 from day one. But you are correct, it would be great, if all J-11As might be reengined.



The most I referred to was original J11B I read from old articles and books I got more than 10 years ago when J11B first started. WS10A was introduced at that time. Improved version WS10 was fitted over time.



zhxy said:


> I am not sure. India and Vietnam both buy T-90s. But China doesn't care about Russian tanks. The SU-57 has many problems and will not be ready for export in the next 5 years.



T90 is just redesigned T72 that has too much weakness relying much on improved armor and extra improved ERA for protection. China ztz99 lacks the blast door but rely on hollow gap in between turret armor & outer armor to prevent impact detonation directly on turret making it better than t90. The ztz99 engine is far more powerful and fuel efficient too.


----------



## OBLiTeRate TrumpTurd

@juj06750 

All your posts are THRASH and your FAKE *81* avatar and
your posts smell like those Murican SLAVE LOSER posts 
who are disappointed that Murican COVID-19 Biowarfare attacks on CHN have failed.

Reactions: Negative Rating Negative Rating:
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## LKJ86

kungfugymnast said:


> First J11B gets improved pulse doppler radar and Russian engines. Development of WS10A replica copy of Russian engines start with production model J11B.


Any evidence?


----------



## Deino

juj06750 said:


> again
> deino, listen to what chinese say (if you want to know us)
> unless, you never know; you only see the image
> those newcomers who hate china periodically keep asking the same questions here
> (then ask yourself, NOT here)
> listen to china!




The point is "I do indeed listen to Chinese", in fact to many more than you probably think and regardless my limitations due to not speaking Chinese NONE of those to who I speak say this; Neither the J-10B, nor the J-15 and J-10B have an AESA.

So maybe it is indeed so, that I'm listening to the wrong peoples ... but slowly - given your other crazy ideas - I get the feeling that it's you, who is listing to the wrong peoples!

Why do note on the reliable Chinese sources say so? Since they all hide the truth or since there simply is none and you are listing to fake reports?

Therefore in summary: it is not that I do not want to listen but I beg for some evidence, a source to check on my own, where these reports that only you find are written. And so far you gave nothing but words.

And finally: *I DON'T HATE CHINA* ... in fact it is the most often heard accusation in other English forums I get, to be in love with China and being already corrupted by their own propaganda. As such it even more clearly shows, how little you know me. 




juj06750 said:


> russia will order a large number of J-20 stealth jet fighters from China; and vietnam will do the following
> china officially declared it no longer buys any russian arms after its annoying trade of SU35 and S400 with russia in 2017; chinese military vice president 張又俠 announced that china will NEVER buy any russian arms again when he visited to russian president on December 2017; in other words china strongly asks russia not to bother it any more for the sale of russian arms; now china believes that russia no longer makes competent amrs due to the lack of money and china develops much better and more reliable arms than russia
> 
> *http://www.mod.gov.cn/big5/leaders/2017-12/08/content_4799425.htm*



And where is mentioned, that "russia will order a large number of J-20 stealth jet fighters from China; and vietnam will do the following"??

Seems as if you are indeed either over-hyping any source you find or have some sort of great imagination.


----------



## kungfugymnast

LKJ86 said:


> Any evidence?



Uh, deino already answered, early batch fitted with russian engines then the rest powered by WS10 and kept improving from time to time. Before J11D, they fitted AESA and newer version WS10 engines for testing and evaluation.

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## LKJ86

kungfugymnast said:


> First J11B gets improved pulse doppler radar and Russian engines. Development of WS10A replica copy of Russian engines start with production model J11B.


@Deino

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## Deino

kungfugymnast said:


> First J11B gets improved pulse doppler radar and Russian engines. Development of WS10A replica copy of Russian engines start with production model J11B.




Since when is the WS-10 a "replica copy of Russian engines"?? Some sources say it is based on the civil CFM-56's core and then independently developed into a low-bypass military turbofan, but surely not a "replica copy of Russian engine".

-------------

By the way, it seems as if production of the J-16 is well underway in Batch 06 ... this is J-16 cn. 0604.

via @huitong


----------



## LKJ86

J-16































Via @空军新闻 from Weixin

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> J-16
> ...
> View attachment 615052
> ...
> Via @空军新闻 from Weixin



As noted above, this one seems to be a Batch 06 J-16!


----------



## kungfugymnast

Deino said:


> Since when is the WS-10 a "replica copy of Russian engines"?? Some sources say it is based on the civil CFM-56's core and then independently developed into a low-bypass military turbofan, but surely not a "replica copy of Russian engine".
> 
> -------------
> 
> By the way, it seems as if production of the J-16 is well underway in Batch 06 ... this is J-16 cn. 0604.
> 
> via @huitong
> 
> View attachment 615044
> View attachment 615045



Some rumors on WS10A is replica with modifications & improvement made from studies taken from reverse engineering done on US jet engine given to China during the 80's alliance with US.


----------



## Deino

kungfugymnast said:


> Some rumors on WS10A is replica with modifications & improvement made from studies taken from reverse engineering done on US jet engine given to China during the 80's alliance with US.



No, this is plain wrong. Quite reverse the WS-10 is said to be based on the civil CFM-56, which were allegedly lost in a fire during the 1980s and since the CFM's core was the core of the GE F101 it was at least doable to re-develop a military engine ... but these are rumours. Later WS-10-variants however have gained some technical benefit from the experience with the AL-31F/FN but that does not make it a reverse engineered Russian engine.

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## kungfugymnast

Deino said:


> No, this is plain wrong. Quite reverse the WS-10 is said to be based on the civil CFM-56, which were allegedly lost in a fire during the 1980s and since the CFM's core was the core of the GE F101 it was at least doable to re-develop a military engine ... but these are rumours. Later WS-10-variants however have gained some technical benefit from the experience with the AL-31F/FN but that does not make it a reverse engineered Russian engine.



Sounds logical, hybrid US + Russian + later own ideas technology on WS10. F15 + Su27 engine tech


----------



## LKJ86

Su-30MKK2





Via navy.81.cn


----------



## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1240994265016209409


----------



## Deino

A J-11BG during some sort of promotional video shooting


----------



## Deino

Anyone with an idea on this one??


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1241650213116354560


----------



## LKJ86

Deino said:


> Anyone with an idea on this one??
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1241650213116354560
> 
> View attachment 616074
> View attachment 616075


It looks like a dual-seat version.


----------



## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> It looks like a dual-seat version.



Actually I don't think so...the canopy is clearly a single seater

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## kungfugymnast

Deino said:


> Actually I don't think so...the canopy is clearly a single seater
> 
> View attachment 616083



You just showed us how to encrypt/decrypt sketches. So is that J11D?


----------



## Deino

kungfugymnast said:


> You just showed us how to encrypt/decrypt sketches. So is that J11D?



And this is wrong?

I don't know, ... again for me it is only clear to be a sungle seater. Otherise it could be anyanything from a regular J-11B and that guy only wants attention or indeed an AESA equipped and TVC-capable WS-10 powered Su-35 equivalent.


----------



## LKJ86

J-16




Via @万全 from Weibo

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> J-16
> View attachment 616389
> 
> Via @万全 from Weibo




Again Wan Quan at his best! 

By the way, it is interesting to see, that some of those J-16s assigned to the 7th Air Brigade have an Eagle!


----------



## kungfugymnast

Deino said:


> And this is wrong?
> 
> I don't know, ... again for me it is only clear to be a sungle seater. Otherise it could be anyanything from a regular J-11B and that guy only wants attention or indeed an AESA equipped and TVC-capable WS-10 powered Su-35 equivalent.



I didn't say right or wrong, just amazed at how you decrypt the sketches. What do you think about J11D with WS10 TVC vs Su35 in terms of dogfight? The AL41 engines in Su35 has higher thrust but no improvement on top speed compared to Su30MK with TVC. J11D has better radad and engines than Su30MK but the Su35 still has 5000lb more in afterburning thrust

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## Deino

kungfugymnast said:


> I didn't say right or wrong, just amazed at how you decrypt the sketches. What do you think about J11D with WS10 TVC vs Su35 in terms of dogfight? The AL41 engines in Su35 has higher thrust but no improvement on top speed compared to Su30MK with TVC. J11D has better radad and engines than Su30MK but the Su35 still has 5000lb more in afterburning thrust




No offence meant; I simply wasn't sure ... anyway thanks! 

Concerning a possible J-11D-based or derivate comparable to a Russian Su-35 I think it is much too early to say so. So far I would wait for a confirmation, that such a TVC-equipped variant exists and then for more images and data... everything else is pure speculation.

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## kungfugymnast

Deino said:


> No offence meant; I simply wasn't sure ... anyway thanks!
> 
> Concerning a possible J-11D-based or derivate comparable to a Russian Su-35 I think it is much too early to say so. So far I would wait for a confirmation, that such a TVC-equipped variant exists and then for more images and data... everything else is pure speculation.



J11D, i would put it somewhere having better AESA, avionics, RWR, displays, HUD, missile systems, fuel efficiency and combat radius than Su35. The Su35 excels in thrust to weight and acceleration with more powerful engines.

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## StormBreaker

My God !!!
This is Big !!!

Finally what I have been to waiting to see at last...
China coming out with a SU-35 counterpart with TVC and AESA radar. J-11D was thought to be dead after 2 prototypes, but here is the new teaser...







@aliyusuf @Mangus Ortus Novem @Blacklight

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## aliyusuf

StormBreaker said:


> My God !!!
> This is Big !!!
> 
> Finally what I have been to waiting to see at last...
> China coming out with a SU-35 counterpart with TVC and AESA radar. J-11D was thought to be dead after 2 prototypes, but here is the new teaser...
> 
> View attachment 616668
> 
> 
> @aliyusuf @Mangus Ortus Novem @Blacklight


As the saying goes "Got my fingers crossed" ... I even tried having my eyes crossed briefly ... so that this may turn out to be true.

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## StormBreaker

aliyusuf said:


> As the saying goes "Got my fingers crossed" ... I even tried having my eyes crossed briefly ... so that this may turn out to be true.


If it does, I hope this is a good news for us too...

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## LKJ86

J-11B
March 20, 2020

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## Deino

StormBreaker said:


> If it does, I hope this is a good news for us too...




Indeed interesting, but why should that be good for the PAF? I'm sure China still won't sell any Flanker.

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## LKJ86

J-11B and J-11BS




Via @万全 from Weibo

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## StormBreaker

Deino said:


> Indeed interesting, but why should that be good for the PAF? I'm sure China still won't sell any Flanker.


I have one more puzzle piece on this one, Which will make it interesting for you as well but lets wait and see.

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## Deino

StormBreaker said:


> I have one more puzzle piece on this one, Which will make it interesting for you as well but lets wait and see.





please.... you know my impatience. I don'r want ... I cannot wait!


----------



## kungfugymnast

Deino said:


> Indeed interesting, but why should that be good for the PAF? I'm sure China still won't sell any Flanker.



J10CE is for export, he's happy on this probably.

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## LKJ86

Via @南海舰队 from Weixin

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## Deino

StormBreaker said:


> I have one more puzzle piece on this one, Which will make it interesting for you as well but lets wait and see.




Come on ... one day wait is enough! Let's unveil this "one more puzzle piece on this one"!


----------



## StormBreaker

Deino said:


> Come on ... one day wait is enough! Let's unveil this "one more puzzle piece on this one"!


I don’t want this thread to become another PAF thread


----------



## Deino

StormBreaker said:


> I don’t want this thread to become another PAF thread




I thought you would have someting on this J-11Plus.


----------



## HRK

StormBreaker said:


> I don’t want this thread to become another PAF thread


why are you teasing Deino .....

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## StormBreaker

Deino said:


> I thought you would have someting on this J-11Plus.


What’s that  ?


----------



## Deino

This



StormBreaker said:


> My God !!!
> This is Big !!!
> 
> Finally what I have been to waiting to see at last...
> China coming out with a SU-35 counterpart with TVC and AESA radar. J-11D was thought to be dead after 2 prototypes, but here is the new teaser...
> 
> View attachment 616668
> 
> 
> @aliyusuf @Mangus Ortus Novem @Blacklight

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## StormBreaker

HRK said:


> why are you teasing Deino .....


You probably know what I am talking about .
Don’t let @Deino know this or else his next book issue will have calls from multiple “bOb vEGanA” Majors and Generals

*Indian Accent*
“Aa Sirr, aaii saa youur bok ishu aanline, send copy, me promote locallly”

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## Deino

What do you think about this?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1242945294616035330
If I'm not mistaken then this is a model only and I won't overrate the same missile, we know from several Trumpeter kits since years as a sign, the PLAAF will field this missile. Or are there other news I missed?

Otherwise IMO we will see more likely the new rumoured LR-AAM, which is said to be smaller than the PL-15 so that the J-20 can carry six of them. Why yet another LR-AAM with similar capabilities??


----------



## LKJ86

Deino said:


> What do you think about this?
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1242945294616035330
> If I'm not mistaken then this is a model only and I won't overrate the same missile, we know from several Trumpeter kits since years as a sign, the PLAAF will field this missile. Or are there other news I missed?
> 
> Otherwise IMO we will see more likely the new rumoured LR-AAM, which is said to be smaller than the PL-15 so that the J-20 can carry six of them. Why yet another LR-AAM with similar capabilities??


Do you think it is smaller than PL-15?

Besides, do you think Su-35 can carry Chinese missiles?


----------



## LKJ86

J-11BS





Via @万全 from Weibo

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> Do you think it is smaller than PL-15?
> 
> Besides, do you think Su-35 can carry Chinese missiles?



Where did I say this ?

I meant, that it is IMO highly unlikely to see the PL-2x on a Su-35 and even more I question, if this missile is still an active project. I expect we'll see the new rumoured AAM, that is performance-wise comparable to the PL-15 but smaller/slimmer, so that the J-20 can fit 6 in its main bays.

Sorry if I was misleading.


----------



## juj06750

Deino said:


> What do you think about this?
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1242945294616035330
> If I'm not mistaken then this is a model only and I won't overrate the same missile, we know from several Trumpeter kits since years as a sign, the PLAAF will field this missile. Or are there other news I missed?
> 
> Otherwise IMO we will see more likely the new rumoured LR-AAM, which is said to be smaller than the PL-15 so that the J-20 can carry six of them. Why yet another LR-AAM with similar capabilities??



we NEVER made PL21 of those image;
it was just fan art in 2010
In 2015 we rather made PL15, which was NOT on the image
I belive that you NEVER see such SU35 with PL21 in reality 
again, another fan art for russian

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## Deino

juj06750 said:


> we NEVER made PL21 of those image;
> it was just fan art in 2010
> In 2015 we rather made PL15, which was NOT on the image
> I belive that you NEVER see such SU35 with PL21 in reality
> again, another fan art for russian




Again ... calm down, read, think and then try again: I directly said, this is a model and that IMO neither we will see this AAM on a Su-35 nor in PLAAF anyway.

By the way you still owe us proof for your claims.


----------



## LKJ86

Su-30MKK2
















Via www.81.cn

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## LKJ86

J-11BS and Su-27UBK




Via www.81.cn

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## juj06750

Deino said:


> Again ... calm down, read, think and then try again: I directly said, this is a model and that IMO neither we will see this AAM on a Su-35 nor in PLAAF anyway.
> 
> By the way you still owe us proof for your claims.



oh what I'm saying is always proof itself
I always tell the truth about our army on this forum
again, listen to chinese for the truth


----------



## Deino

juj06750 said:


> oh what I'm saying is always proof itself
> I always tell the truth about our army on this forum
> again, listen to chinese for the truth









... or this one! 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1241104227138777092

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## LKJ86

J-11BS





























































Via @央广军事 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-16





Via @前站起飞 from Weibo

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## juj06750

Deino said:


> View attachment 617851
> 
> 
> ... or this one!
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1241104227138777092







deino & west foreigners,
again it's our army and forum;
listen to chinese (not US media)


----------



## LKJ86

J-11B and J-11BS



















Via @央广军事 from Weixin

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## Deino

juj06750 said:


> View attachment 618081
> 
> deino & west foreigners,
> again it's our army and forum;
> listen to chinese (not US media)




Oh come on ... grow up, get serious and stop talking like an Indian with all your hollow promises, announcements, and purported facts based only on "I heard, based on listening to Chinese". 

Show facts or stay out of the discussions.

Again, I certainly don't hear everything, but I mostly listen to Chinese sources. And as long as members like 
@LKJ86, @Beast, @lcloo or Huitong, Dafengcao, Oedosoldier and others agree with your facts, I don't believe a word of what only you tell; and I'm sure none of them believe you too.

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## Deino

Anyone with an idea on how reliable this poster or this piece of information concerning new J-16 brigades is?

https://bbs.meyet.net/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=321328&page=4888#pid3946840


----------



## kungfugymnast

Deino said:


> Oh come on ... grow up, get serious and stop talking like an Indian with all your hollow promises, announcements, and purported facts based only on "I heard, based on listening to Chinese".
> 
> Show facts or stay out of the discussions.
> 
> Again, I certainly don't hear everything, but I mostly listen to Chinese sources. And as long as members like
> @LKJ86, @Beast, @lcloo or Huitong, Dafengcao, Oedosoldier and others agree with your facts, I don't believe a word of what only you tell; and I'm sure none of them believe you too.



Deino, just ignore juj06750.

Back to topic, this time on US ECM capabilities and how well could China AESA, radar guided missiles overcome this. It came on my mind when export variant E2C hawkeye up in the air with ECM on, at range about less than 10 miles, all communications, cellphones, GCI radar, rapier SAM radar no longer work, badly distorted and only thing to rely on will be IR guided missiles. I

Iraq and Serbia war, the radars were distorted by USAF and USN ECM flights escorted by fighters on SEAD & CAP. It is believed that US ECM could selectively jam signals allowing friendly to use their radar and satellite links.

Say if there's war, J11D up against US F18s escorting EA18G Growler, will the J11D AESA radar able to detect and track F18 under jamming like having ECCM on radar and missile seeker? Russian came up with long range IR guided air to air missile R27ET and passive guided R27EM probably for attacking enemy fighters when own radar not working.


----------



## LKJ86

Su-30MKK



















Via @万全 from Weibo

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## Deino

Anyone noticed?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1246131256540028934


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## LKJ86

J-16




Via @CadderCG from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-11BSH

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## kungfugymnast

LKJ86 said:


> I didn't say that.
> 
> PLAAF prefers J-10S and J-11BS.



J-10S and J-11BS are for graduated fighter pilots, training for them before they fly the fighters in squadron they're assigned to



Beast said:


> Me too, I say J-7 relegate to training pilot but never claim it's good in training. In fact, J-7 can help pilot get used to some high G training but not a very good trainer in clocking enough flying hours for 4th gen modern fighter jets. L-15 will be best candidate. But it's not a very cheap trainer compare to J-7, J-9L.



J-7 is good for supersonic training. The J-7 is not that maneuverable, mostly pulling up to 7G plus near Mach 0.75. At higher speed, it could hardly manuever more like rocket. Pilot could experience how to maneuver when fighter could hardly maneuver at high speed. Indian air force Mig-21 often crashed because of pilots overadjusting throttle and crash when failing to pull up from diving too fast.



Deino said:


> First of all since most of them are plain wrong and stupid enough to mix the prototype J-11D with the AESA-upgraded J-11BG ... anyway, we will see, but again, this is the -10 thread and no the J-11 one.



There's J-11D prototype or it's just modified J-11BG for evaluation purpose?


----------



## Deino

kungfugymnast said:


> ...
> There's J-11D prototype or it's just modified J-11BG for evaluation purpose?




You really need to do your homework... there were at least three J-11D prototypes before that project was terminated and the J-11BG is a regular MLU.

but again ... this is the wrong thread.


----------



## kungfugymnast

Deino said:


> You really need to do your homework... there were at least three J-11D prototypes before that project was terminated and the J-11BG is a regular MLU.
> 
> but again ... this is the wrong thread.



Then why did you say J-11D doesn't exist earlier? Things haven't finalized if China decided to build J-11D or all old J-11A/B being overhauled, refitted with new AESA, other avionics, new WS10 engines +TVC being redesignated J-11D. WS10G with 35,000lb thrust exist?


----------



## Deino

kungfugymnast said:


> Then why did you say J-11D doesn't exist earlier? Things haven't finalized if China decided to build J-11D or all old J-11A/B being overhauled, refitted with new AESA, other avionics, new WS10 engines +TVC being redesignated J-11D. WS10G with 35,000lb thrust exist?




Again, ... you are hyping things as if they are in PLAAF operational frontline service and as such the J-11D does not exist, but there are three prototypes.

If you would have checked yourself, you would have noticed.


----------



## LKJ86

J-11B and J-11BS














































Via @央广军事 from Weixin

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## kungfugymnast

Deino said:


> Again, ... you are hyping things as if they are in PLAAF operational frontline service and as such the J-11D does not exist, but there are three prototypes.
> 
> If you would have checked yourself, you would have noticed.



I didn't say they have entered service neither. The engine choice is not decided.


----------



## Deino

kungfugymnast said:


> I didn't say they have entered service neither. The engine choice is not decided.




You do not read: the J-11D project is dead ... as such there is no engine issue to be decided.


----------



## kungfugymnast

LKJ86 said:


> J-11B and J-11BS
> View attachment 623299
> View attachment 623300
> View attachment 623301
> View attachment 623302
> View attachment 623303
> View attachment 623304
> View attachment 623305
> View attachment 623306
> View attachment 623307
> View attachment 623309
> View attachment 623310
> View attachment 623311
> View attachment 623312
> View attachment 623313
> View attachment 623314
> 
> Via @央广军事 from Weixin



Good, post more J-11 armaments, best if you could post air to ground ordnance


----------



## LKJ86

J-11BS





Via kj.81.cn

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## LKJ86

Su-27UBK and J-11BS













Via @央视军事报道 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-16










Via @东部战区 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-11BS

Reactions: Like Like:
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## LKJ86

J-11B

























Via @央广军事 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-16




Via @万全 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Su-30MKK2








































Via @东部战区 from Weixin


----------



## Deino

As far as I know, this image of a J-11D prototype. (Image via china-清火 at http://lt.cjdby.net)


----------



## LKJ86

Via www.top81cn.cn

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 624803
> View attachment 624804
> 
> Via www.top81cn.cn




I'm always surprised that there are still only a handful of images available showing the J-15!?


----------



## LKJ86

Deino said:


> I'm always surprised that there are still only a handful of images available showing the J-15!?




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1251558342327222273*God's Eye View *

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## LKJ86

J-11BS




























Via @央广军事 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-11B and J-11BS








Via kj.81.cn

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## LKJ86

J-11BS and Su-27UBK
















Via www.81.cn

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## LKJ86

J-11BSH



















Via @军报记者 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-11BSH

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## kungfugymnast

LKJ86 said:


> J-11BSH
> View attachment 629094
> View attachment 629095
> View attachment 629096
> View attachment 629097
> View attachment 629098
> View attachment 629099
> 
> Via @军报记者 from Weibo



Why is it always unguided S8/13 rocket pods and unguided iron bombs? The J11BSH have optronic sensor pod that allows it to designate target for laser guided missiles and bombs. China has numbers of Russian visual/laser guided air to ground missiles and bombs. Where's kh29, kh25, kab250/500/1000?


----------



## Deino

kungfugymnast said:


> Why is it always unguided S8/13 rocket pods and unguided iron bombs? The J11BSH have optronic sensor pod that allows it to designate target for laser guided missiles and bombs. China has numbers of Russian visual/laser guided air to ground missiles and bombs. Where's kh29, kh25, kab250/500/1000?




No it does not, the Flanker's IRST-device is not a target designator pod capable to guide LGBs and concerning the Russian bombs and missiles, most of them delivered are only IR-capable and not the LG-variant.


----------



## kungfugymnast

Deino said:


> No it does not, the Flanker's IRST-device is not a target designator pod capable to guide LGBs and concerning the Russian bombs and missiles, most of them delivered are only IR-capable and not the LG-variant.



From Russian air to ground missiles encyclopedia, none of them are IR guided. They started with wire guided, tv guided, radar beam riding and later laser guided. Su-27 flanker B could designate target on HUD probably assisted by radar or IRST to launch air to ground missiles that will home in to designated target (visual on HUD). Mig29SMT standard armaments include kh29 air to ground missile. It has range of up to 10 miles. How does it track ground target at max range then? Only limited to large structure?

If US 80's & 90's MFD onwards, you could switch to ground search radar to display objects detected on the ground for you to select and track then launch AGM65D/G IR guided. Alternatively, you could turn off radar and use the FLIR to zoom and designate/lase target to launch AGM-65 from 9 miles away. You may target SAMs & AAA first then go after targets that can't retaliate. The target will show as designated on HUD where you could also place pickle to drop bomb. Russian avionics lacked of these but newer ones could be better. Maybe China fighters will come up with US equivalent avionics


----------



## LKJ86

J-16
















Via kj.81.cn

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## kungfugymnast

LKJ86 said:


> J-16
> View attachment 631430
> View attachment 631431
> View attachment 631432
> View attachment 631433
> View attachment 631434
> 
> Via kj.81.cn



Does J-16 come with LANTIRN/SNIPER style FLIR pod for zooming and designating or lasing target for laser guided missiles or bombs?


----------



## LKJ86

J-16










Via 解放军报

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## LKJ86

J-11B










Via @东部战区 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-11BS




Via @空军在线 from Weibo

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## IblinI

Don't know if this has been posted here before, a J11B upgrade with AESA.

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## kungfugymnast

IblinI said:


> Don't know if this has been posted here before, a J11B upgrade with AESA.



Do you find white radome looks nicer or black radome on J-11? I find black matte radome doesn't match PLAAF fighters cammo paint. Dark gray would be better. J-11 should replace their radars with new AESA.


----------



## LKJ86

J-11BS




By 万全

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## LKJ86

WS-10 and J-11BS





















































Via kj.81.cn

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## Imran Khan

he grabbed two movie tickets of late night show ????

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## LKJ86

J-11B and J-11BS


































Via @央视军事报道 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-16
















Via kj.81.cn

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## LKJ86

J-16

Reactions: Like Like:
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## LKJ86

J-16







Via @万全 from Weibo

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6


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## LKJ86

J-11B




Via @万全 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-16




Via @万全 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Su-30MKK

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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1264096327023185921

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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1264198788308033543
Any idea what base this is? ... with J-11BG operational i thought it might be Anshan in the NTC but the structures do not fit.


----------



## Deino

PS ... just found with some help!


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1264228509968367616

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## LKJ86

J-11B




Via @空军在线 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-16







Via @万全 from Weibo

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## Deino

J-16 + YJ-91 ARM

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## LKJ86

J-11B and J-11BS








By 杨盼 and 万全

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## LKJ86

J-11B and J-11BS










Via @中部战区发布 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-11A




Via @空军在线 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-11B




Via @空军在线 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @空军在线 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-16







Via kj.81.cn

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## LKJ86

J-16




Via @空军在线 from Weibo

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## Deino

Anyone with an idea what kind of store this J-16 is carrying? 

(Image via 鼎盛huitong at Weibo)


----------



## ZeEa5KPul

Deino said:


> Anyone with an idea what kind of store this J-16 is carrying?
> 
> (Image via 鼎盛huitong at Weibo)
> 
> View attachment 642630


The nacelle kind of looks like a ramjet intake. Could be a prototype of one of the candidates for the new AAM.


----------



## Deino

ZeEa5KPul said:


> The nacelle kind of looks like a ramjet intake. Could be a prototype of one of the candidates for the new AAM.



I don't think so, after some consideration I'm now almost sure it is a funny coincidence that the lower pylon-adapter and the right-wing's wing pylon are overlaying so that it looks like something special.

By the way ... a nice image of a J-16


----------



## LKJ86

Via @西部空天 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-16










Via www.81.cn

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## LKJ86

J-16

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## LKJ86

J-11BSH



















Via @海军航空大学 from Weixin

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> J-11BSH
> View attachment 647183
> 
> Via @海军航空大学 from Weixin




A twin seater with grey numbers? That's new since so far all PLAN NA j_11BH and BSH have blue serials like the one below.

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## LKJ86

J-11B

















Via @央广军事 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-11BS and J-11B


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## LKJ86

J-16
















Via @东部战区 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-11BS







Via @西部空天 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-16

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## LKJ86

J-11B







Via @央视军事报道 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

A documentary of J-11

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## IblinI



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## _NOBODY_

@IblinI @LKJ86 Is the payload capacity of J-16 higher than that of Su-35?

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## Deino

IblinI said:


>




Any idea what strange store this is?


----------



## IblinI

Deino said:


> Any idea what strange store this is?


Some unseen jammer?

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## LKJ86

IblinI said:


>


J-16




Via @秋秋Q30 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-11BS







Via @西部空天 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-16







Via @摇篮里的航海家 from Weibo

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## kungfugymnast

LKJ86 said:


> J-16
> View attachment 655855
> View attachment 655856
> 
> Via @摇篮里的航海家 from Weibo



How to differentiate J-16 from J-11BS and J-11BSH?


----------



## Deino

kungfugymnast said:


> How to differentiate J-16 from J-11BS and J-11BSH?




J-16s have grey radomes, no pitot, taller tails and two wheels on the front landing gear.

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## IblinI

Deino said:


> J-16s have grey radomes, no pitot, taller tails and two wheels on the front landing gear.


the new batch seems to have white radomes.

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## LKJ86

J-11BSH











Via @海军新闻 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-11B and J-11BS
















Via @空军新闻 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-11BH and J-11BSH



















Via @海军航空大学 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @西部空天 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-11BH




Via @人民海军 from Weixin

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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1289892067074695168

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## _NOBODY_

Deino said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1289892067074695168


What is so special about the D variant?


----------



## Deino

_NOBODY_ said:


> What is so special about the D variant?




It's a dedicated EW-variant

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## _NOBODY_

Deino said:


> It's a dedicated EW-variant
> 
> View attachment 657875


Will J-16s be replacing JH-7s?


----------



## LKJ86

J-16
















Via @西部空天 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-11B and J-11BS







Via @空军新闻 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via www.81.cn

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## LKJ86

Su-30MKK

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## LKJ86

Su-30MKK with China's EW pod and YJ-91





Via @万全 from Weibo

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## Figaro

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1289941881682501633Did the J-16D get equipped with Taihangs?

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## LKJ86

Figaro said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1289941881682501633Did the J-16D get equipped with Taihangs?


I would be surprised if J-16D is not equipped with WS-10 engines.

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## Trailer23

Seemed like a good documentary, but CCTV doesn't provide Translation.





@LKJ86 @Beast

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## LKJ86

Trailer23 said:


> Seemed like a good documentary, but CCTV doesn't provide Translation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @LKJ86 @Beast


It is a good chance to learn Chinese.

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## LKJ86

J-11B and J-11BS


























































Via @央视军事报道 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

LKJ86 said:


> J-11B and J-11BS
> View attachment 658212
> View attachment 658213
> View attachment 658214
> View attachment 658215
> View attachment 658216
> View attachment 658217
> View attachment 658218
> View attachment 658219
> View attachment 658220
> View attachment 658221
> View attachment 658222
> View attachment 658223
> View attachment 658224
> View attachment 658225
> View attachment 658226
> View attachment 658227
> View attachment 658228
> View attachment 658229
> View attachment 658230
> 
> Via @央视军事报道 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-11B and J-11BS

Reactions: Like Like:
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## LKJ86

J-11B and J-11BS




Via @空军新闻 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-11B and J-11BS





























































Via @央视军事报道 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-16







Via @空军在线 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-11BS




























Via @央广军事 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-11B and J-11BS
















Via @空军新闻 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-11BH and J-11BSH










Via @人民海军 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-11BH













Via www.plapic.com.cn

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## LKJ86

Via www.plapic.com.cn

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## Nasr

I have a question for Chinese members, does PLAAF have a war time camouflage for its fighter aircraft? Or is the grey livery with the bright red stripe on the spine the norm regardless if it's war time?


----------



## PeacefulWar

Nasr said:


> I have a question for Chinese members, does PLAAF have a war time camouflage for its fighter aircraft? Or is the grey livery with the bright red stripe on the spine the norm regardless if it's war time?


Not sure about war time camouflage, is there even two camouflages for wartime and normal time? 
The new low-visibility coating for PLAAF should be like this, but not all fighters have such coats yet.:

Reactions: Like Like:
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## LKJ86

J-11B




Via @WANGSHIYIFOTO from Weibo

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> J-11B
> View attachment 661653
> 
> Via @WANGSHIYIFOTO from Weibo




Oh wow, the rarely seen 177th - aka 66th - Brigade!


----------



## LKJ86

J-11B




Via @WANGSHIYIFOTO from Weibo

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> J-11B
> View attachment 661899
> 
> Via @WANGSHIYIFOTO from Weibo




What is he hiding? Just an ordinary PL-12?


----------



## LKJ86

J-11B and J-11BS

Reactions: Like Like:
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## LKJ86

J-11BS




Via @空军在线 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-11BS

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## LKJ86

J-11BS

Reactions: Like Like:
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## LKJ86

J-11BSH



















Via @海军新闻 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-11B and J-11BS

Reactions: Like Like:
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## LKJ86

J-16













Via www.js7tv.cn and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-11B




Via @WANGSHIYIFOTO from Weibo

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## Figaro

J-16

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## LKJ86

J-16




Via @空军在线 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-16




Via @前站起飞 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-11B and J-11BS




























Via @中部战区号角 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-11BS

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## LKJ86

J-11B and J-11BS



















Via CCTV 13 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

LKJ86 said:


> J-11B and J-11BS
> View attachment 668599
> View attachment 668600
> View attachment 668601
> View attachment 668602
> View attachment 668603
> View attachment 668604
> 
> Via CCTV 13 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-11B




Via @白龙_龙腾四海 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-16

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## kungfugymnast

LKJ86 said:


> J-16
> View attachment 670071
> View attachment 670072
> View attachment 670073
> View attachment 670074
> View attachment 670075
> View attachment 670076
> View attachment 670077
> View attachment 670078
> View attachment 670079
> View attachment 670080
> View attachment 670081



The J-16 along with J-15B will be primary conventional air to air, air to ground & anti-ship weapons platforms for China.


----------



## LKJ86

J-11B

Reactions: Like Like:
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## UKBengali

Figaro said:


> J-16
> View attachment 666553




Loving the clear picture of the 2 WS-10B engines there.

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## LKJ86

J-11B and J-11BS







Via www.81.cn

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## LKJ86

J-11BS




Via 解放军报

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## Deino

__





Facebook







www.facebook.com


----------



## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1311912897417707526

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## LKJ86

J-11BSH





Via 解放军报


----------



## LKJ86

J-11BS































Via @央广军事 from Weixin


----------



## LKJ86

J-11BS







Via @空军新闻 from Weixin


----------



## LKJ86

J-11B




Via @西部空天 from Weixin

Reactions: Like Like:
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## LKJ86

J-11B and J-11BS




























Via @万全 from Weibo

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1


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## LKJ86

J-11BS and J-11B
















Via @空军新闻 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-11B and J-11BS

Reactions: Like Like:
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## LKJ86

J-11B and J-11BS




Via CCTV 7 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-16




Via 王国云

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> J-16
> View attachment 681632
> 
> Via 王国云




With a J-10AS behind it could be the 26th Air Brigade at Huizhou-Huiyang.


----------



## LKJ86

J-11BH and J-11BSH










Via @央广军事 from Weixin















Via @央广军事 from Weibo

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1319511461471920129


----------



## LKJ86

According to @罪恶大天使, the so-called "J-11BG" is just the old J-11B with a new radome...




Via @罪恶大天使 from Weibo

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> According to @罪恶大天使, the so-called "J-11BG" is just the old J-11B with a new radome...
> View attachment 681956
> 
> Via @罪恶大天使 from Weibo




So not even an AESA refit!?

However at least this one has WS-10 engines and since so far only the 1. Brigade is confirmed to use them the question is: are the J-11BG in fact the Batch 01 J-11Bs updated with the new AESA (allegedly) and WS-10 engines or are these later production batches like the few Batch 07 we know in the 1. AB?


----------



## LKJ86

Via @航空工业沈飞 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-16 and J-11B







Via www.81.cn

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## LKJ86

J-16




Via @央广军事 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-11BS




Via 马鹏

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## LKJ86

J-16

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## LKJ86

J-16













Via @西部空天 from Weixin

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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1325330530200674304
By the way, it comes from the latest 2020 PLAAF pilot recruiting video (at 0:30)

https://www.facebook.com/groups/114...8806066239&notif_t=group_highlights&ref=notif

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## Deino

Deino said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1325330530200674304
> By the way, it comes from the latest 2020 PLAAF pilot recruiting video (at 0:30)
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/114...8806066239&notif_t=group_highlights&ref=notif





Interesting that it looks - at least in general configuration and size - comparable to the new Indian Anti-Radiation Missile RUDRAM.


----------



## LKJ86

Via @云煎水灼 from Weibo

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## LKJ86



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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 687450



Can't read what he says, but am I wrong?



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1326409681632374785

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## samsara

From dafeng cao @dafengcao on 2020.11.11:

_The PLAAF fields new J-16 HMDS in the "Golden Helmet 2020" air combat contest._


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1326382168319397890

From Henri Kenhmann at East Pendulum on 2020.11.11:

_A new model of the viewfinder helmet (HMD or helmet-mounted display), following that of the J-20, is revealed today in a TV report on CCTV-7.
On the two J-16s going on an Air-Air combat exercise against two J-10Cs, the pilots wore these helmets but not the WSOs._


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1326506274033295360
WSO: Weapon Systems Officer... reminder, the J-16 has tandem seats.

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## GeHAC

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 687450


Translation: This helmet(prototype) had already appeared when J-16 was tested in Yanliang test flight center. After years of efforts in weight reduction, it's now time for mass application.

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## siegecrossbow

Is this the same brand spotted on one of the J-20 pilots?


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## Deino

siegecrossbow said:


> Is this the same brand spotted on one of the J-20 pilots?




IMO it looks similar but it is different ... 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1326410924811563010

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## LKJ86

Via @牧是家 from Weibo




J-11B and J-16







Via @空军在线 from Weibo

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## ilia

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 479128
> View attachment 479129
> View attachment 479130
> View attachment 479131
> View attachment 479132
> View attachment 479133
> View attachment 479134
> View attachment 479135
> View attachment 479136


My Chinese friends

What is that electro optical pod?
Are there anything special about those r-27 and r-77 missiles?


----------



## LKJ86

J-16
















Via @西部空天 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-11B and J-11BS








































Via @空军新闻 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-16






















Via CCTV 7

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> J-16
> View attachment 689059
> View attachment 689060
> View attachment 689061
> View attachment 689062
> View attachment 689065
> View attachment 689068
> View attachment 689069
> 
> Via CCTV 7




Here's the video:

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## LKJ86

Via @feel的小步舞曲 from Weibo

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## Trailer23

Deino said:


> IMO it looks similar but it is different ...
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1326410924811563010


Its about time.

I got sick of looking at those Soviet-era Helmets.


----------



## ILC

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 689312
> View attachment 689313
> 
> Via @feel的小步舞曲 from Weibo


The first pic is incorrect. It shows J-11B with Russian Al engine, instead, China only used these engines in batch 1 of these fighters. The rest are using Chinese engines WS-10. Also, J-11B first batch was retrofitted with WS-10 not long ago, so all use WS-10.


----------



## Deino

ILC said:


> The first pic is incorrect. It shows J-11B with Russian Al engine, instead, China only used these engines in batch 1 of these fighters. The rest are using Chinese engines WS-10. Also, J-11B first batch was retrofitted with WS-10 not long ago, so all use WS-10.




It is in fact NOT wrong. First it shows a J-11B with the old 1st Air Division serials and as such at a time those aircraft were not re-engined and second - at least I don't - have a proof that all now 1st Air Brigade J-11Bs were using WS-10 engines.


----------



## ILC

If it's not wrong then it's misleading. People will assume all J-11B are using Al engines.

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## Deino

ILC said:


> If it's not wrong then it's misleading. People will assume all J-11B are using Al engines.




Indeed, that's correct.


----------



## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 689312
> View attachment 689313
> 
> Via @feel的小步舞曲 from Weibo




By the way, do we know who is the original creator of these profiles since by my understanding @feel的小步舞曲 usually only composes them together based on others?
Especially the early ones - J-11A, J-11B and BS - are IMO from Bai Wei, who helped me very much with the artworks for my first book, but since several years I know nothing of him and also got no reply to any mails.


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## LKJ86

Deino said:


> By the way, do we know who is the original creator of these profiles since by my understanding @feel的小步舞曲 usually only composes them together based on others?


@feel的小步舞曲 is the original creator.


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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> @feel的小步舞曲 is the original creator.




Are you sure? IMO they are identical ... up the the smallest details.

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## LKJ86

J-16












































Via @西部空天 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-16






















Via @空军新闻 from Weixin

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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1330074921343578116

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## LKJ86

J-16










Via @罪恶大天使 from Weibo

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> J-16
> View attachment 690309
> View attachment 690311
> View attachment 690312
> 
> Via @罪恶大天使 from Weibo




Looks like a new variant of the WS-10B?

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## ILC

The newer version looks uglier, but probably has more power and a longer lifespan


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## LKJ86

J-16

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## LKJ86

Via @空军新闻 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-16

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## LKJ86

J-11BS

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## LKJ86

J-16, J-11B and J-11BS

























Via 余红春

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## LKJ86

J-11B

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## LKJ86

J-11BG(?)




Via @牧是家 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-16

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## LKJ86

J-16







Via @牧是家 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-11D (?)





Via @angadow from Weibo

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> J-11D (?)
> View attachment 695175
> 
> Via @angadow from Weibo




wow  ... any info how recent this is?

And yes it is a J-11D.


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## LKJ86

J-16




Via @兵器知识杂志 from Weixin

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## ZeEa5KPul

Does the J-11BG upgrade include an upgrade of the engine to the latest variant of the WS-10 or are the original engines retained?

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## LKJ86

J-16











































Via @ 西部空天 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-11BG (?)




Via @航空工业沈飞 from Weixin

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> J-11BG (?)
> View attachment 697566
> 
> Via @航空工业沈飞 from Weixin




seems so and again with the WS-10 featuring the long feathers.


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## Deino

Great image of a PLAAF J-16 carrying four PL-15 AAMs.

(Image courtesy of MXRTBZ via Huitong's CMA-Blog)

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## LKJ86

J-11B













Via @中部战区号角 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-11BS






















Via @空军新闻 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-16













Via 解放军画报

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## LKJ86

J-11BS and J-16







Via www.81.cn

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## LKJ86

J-10C "shot down" J-16

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## LKJ86

J-16




Via www.81.cn

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## LKJ86

J-11BG (?)




Via @牧是家 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-11BH and J-11BSH




















Via @南海舰队 from Weixin

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## S10

LKJ86 said:


> J-11BH and J-11BSH
> View attachment 702627
> 
> Via @南海舰队 from Weixin


Utilizing high value assets for rocket attack should be banned.

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## kungfugymnast

S10 said:


> Utilizing high value assets for rocket attack should be banned.



J-11B already around before China has working FLIR pod targeting system. J-11B doesn't have sophisticated target designator to launch advanced air to ground missiles, laser guided bombs before being upgraded to carry FILAT targeting pod. Before the upgrade, J-11B/BS could only perform unguided bombing run and rockets attack. For guided air to ground missiles Kh-29T/L or anti-radiation Kh-31.


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## LKJ86

J-11BS







Via @西部空天 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-16

























Via @西部空天 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-11BS

























Via @西部空天 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-16







Via @34号军事室 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-11BH
















Via @南部战区 from Weixin



J-11BS



















Via @空军新闻 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via 解放军画报

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## LKJ86

Via @航空工业沈飞 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-11B

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## LKJ86

J-11BH and J-11BSH

























Via @人民海军 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-16




Via @航空工业沈飞 from Weixin

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## Deino

Wow ... is this real or a model? 😲

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## LKJ86

J-11B

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## LKJ86

Su-30MKK2 & PL-12

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## Deino

"The latest image (February 2021) indicated that the J-11D prototype was making various test flights at SAC, suggesting the project is still alive."

(Image courtesy of MSJ via Huitong's CMA-Blog)


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## SQ8

Deino said:


> "The latest image (February 2021) indicated that the J-11D prototype was making various test flights at SAC, suggesting the project is still alive."
> 
> (Image courtesy of MSJ via Huitong's CMA-Blog)
> 
> 
> View attachment 713743


Wasn’t this the signature reduction experiment version?

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## Deino

SQ8 said:


> Wasn’t this the signature reduction experiment version?




Yes


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## LKJ86

J-16

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## juj06750

Deino said:


> "The latest image (February 2021) indicated that the J-11D prototype was making various test flights at SAC, suggesting the project is still alive."
> 
> (Image courtesy of MSJ via Huitong's CMA-Blog)
> 
> 
> View attachment 713743


it was just prototype for test; not for production


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## Deino

juj06750 said:


> it was just prototype for test; not for production




Well, at least there were three and I only noted what Huitong said!


----------



## LKJ86

J-11BH
















Via @南部战区 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

The repair of J-11B













Via CCTV 7 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-16

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## kungfugymnast

Deino said:


> "The latest image (February 2021) indicated that the J-11D prototype was making various test flights at SAC, suggesting the project is still alive."
> 
> (Image courtesy of MSJ via Huitong's CMA-Blog)
> 
> 
> View attachment 713743



Before this, you kept telling us that J-11D doesn't exist banning us from mentioning. Now there's J-11D, so are we allowed to bring up this topic? Already told you older Su-27 & J-11 underwent MLU will be redesignated as J-11D. Those old ageing Su-27 that will be unfit to fly soon and too expensive to patch them up, so they'll be recycled and rebuilt into J-11D.

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## Deino

kungfugymnast said:


> Before this, you kept telling us that J-11D doesn't exist banning us from mentioning. Now there's J-11D, so are we allowed to bring up this topic? Already told you older Su-27 & J-11 underwent MLU will be redesignated as J-11D. Those old ageing Su-27 that will be unfit to fly soon and too expensive to patch them up, so they'll be recycled and rebuilt into J-11D.




One again you were twisting words and I'm actually not sure what's your intention? I'm well aware that there is or at least was a J-11D and even less I banned you for this. But again you are wrong, no regular J-11A/B has been "recycled and rebuilt into J-11D", at least none in PLAAF service.

As such either back up your claim or stop with this BS ... You know how it ends.


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## kungfugymnast

Deino said:


> One again you were twisting words and I'm actually not sure what's your intention? I'm well aware that there is or at least was a J-11D and even less I banned you for this. But again you are wrong, no regular J-11A/B has been "recycled and rebuilt into J-11D", at least none in PLAAF service.
> 
> As such either back up your claim or stop with this BS ... You know how it ends.



The point is there will be J-11D entering production along with J-16 to fill the need for 4.5 generation conventional fighters inventory. Fighters that pull 9G took much more structural punishment than older generation fighters therefore they will be recycled based on condition after exceeding way over 30 years to reduce risk of structural failure while in mid-air especially. So are we allowed to bring up J-11D topic now since you have already started?


----------



## Deino

kungfugymnast said:


> The point is there will be J-11D entering production along with J-16 to fill the need for 4.5 generation conventional fighters inventory. Fighters that pull 9G took much more structural punishment than older generation fighters therefore they will be recycled based on condition after exceeding way over 30 years to reduce risk of structural failure while in mid-air especially. So are we allowed to bring up J-11D topic now since you have already started?




Again, I never said it is forbidding to post on the J-11D, I never said there is no J-11D ... I'm not sure why you once again try to start a pissing contest.

Yes, go ahead but back up your claims since so far NOTHING hints towards that the "J-11D entering production along with J-16" and stop spreading lies and unsubstantial rumours as facts and spin you endless long posts on them.

From all we know, there have been at least three J-11D prototypes, they are vry much different to the regular J-11A/B and since so far no production commenced many say it is most likely a dead project now but as it seems, the prototypes are still flying since they are valuable assets you don't only retire. But again, there is no hint yet, taht the J-11D will enter service.


----------



## serenity

kungfugymnast said:


> The point is there will be J-11D entering production along with J-16 to fill the need for 4.5 generation conventional fighters inventory. Fighters that pull 9G took much more structural punishment than older generation fighters therefore they will be recycled based on condition after exceeding way over 30 years to reduce risk of structural failure while in mid-air especially. So are we allowed to bring up J-11D topic now since you have already started?



J-11D program is over. There is no point but the new radar developed for J-11D that PLAAF rejected first versions of might be useful for J-11B if it is now improved enough.

4.5 generation is J-16 and J-10C so why buy any J-11D? J-11B can already receive upgrades to AESA and PL-10 with PL-15. This is maybe about 90% J-11D usefulness for less price. Also improves the J-11B which are otherwise much less useful but still have very good design and service.

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## kungfugymnast

Deino said:


> Again, I never said it is forbidding to post on the J-11D, I never said there is no J-11D ... I'm not sure why you once again try to start a pissing contest.
> 
> Yes, go ahead but back up your claims since so far NOTHING hints towards that the "J-11D entering production along with J-16" and stop spreading lies and unsubstantial rumours as facts and spin you endless long posts on them.
> 
> From all we know, there have been at least three J-11D prototypes, they are vry much different to the regular J-11A/B and since so far no production commenced many say it is most likely a dead project now but as it seems, the prototypes are still flying since they are valuable assets you don't only retire. But again, there is no hint yet, taht the J-11D will enter service.



China's fighters policy is to have conventional and stealth fighters in active service. Do they still produce more J-11B now or production stopped? 

Look at US despite wanted all stealth fighters replacing all conventional 4th generation has made a U-Turn after realizing the F-22 and F-35 can't really take over all roles of F-15/16/18. If you look at US rates of crashes high due to structural worn out in ageing F-15 and F-16 over 30 years old. If US didn't face serious budget issues, they would have recycled their F-15C/E into F-15X/XE. Recycle = disassembly, remold and rebuilt = new fighter (not overhaul). 

The J-11D costs lower than J-16, requires just 1 pilot, in air to ground role, the J-11D could perform the same delivering same amount of bombs and missiles. J-11D production depends on numbers of replacement fighters required.


----------



## Deino

kungfugymnast said:


> China's fighters policy is to have conventional and stealth fighters in active service. Do they still produce more J-11B now or production stopped?
> 
> ....
> 
> *The J-11D costs lower than J-16*, requires just 1 pilot, in air to ground role, the J-11D could perform the same delivering same amount of bombs and missiles. J-11D production depends on numbers of replacement fighters required.




That's only an assumption, not a fact! As such I fully agree with you that there still is a role for "conventional - aka fourth or 4.5 generation - fighters in active service" but like @serenity noted, the "J-11B can already receive upgrades to AESA and PL-10 with PL-15. This is maybe about 90% J-11D usefulness for less price."

Nothing so far hints towards the J-11D entering full scale production and yes, J-11B production ended.


----------



## kungfugymnast

Deino said:


> That's only an assumption, not a fact! As such I fully agree with you that there still is a role for "conventional - aka fourth or 4.5 generation - fighters in active service" but like @serenity noted, the "J-11B can already receive upgrades to AESA and PL-10 with PL-15. This is maybe about 90% J-11D usefulness for less price."
> 
> Nothing so far hints towards the J-11D entering full scale production and yes, J-11B production ended.



China is large country and PLAAF demands more fighters for their inventory. J-11D status can be said as similar to Russian air force Su-27SM3 on limited production based on necessity request. Older Su-27 undergone MLU refitted with present avioncs redesignated as Su-27SM2. J-11B on MLU will be refitted with AESA & revised MFDs whereas older ageing fighters that are beyond repair will be replaced with J-11D. PLAAF quota for conventional fighters is still there so J-11D will likely receive limited request.

Based on your thoughts, which engine will be fitted on J-11D? Standard WS-10B or more powerful WS-10C?


----------



## fallstuff

How many sukhois china copied ?


----------



## kungfugymnast

serenity said:


> J-11D program is over. There is no point but the new radar developed for J-11D that PLAAF rejected first versions of might be useful for J-11B if it is now improved enough.
> 
> 4.5 generation is J-16 and J-10C so why buy any J-11D? J-11B can already receive upgrades to AESA and PL-10 with PL-15. This is maybe about 90% J-11D usefulness for less price. Also improves the J-11B which are otherwise much less useful but still have very good design and service.



J-11D production already explained in reply to Deino when there's demand to replace ageing retired Su-27 and J-11A in years to come apart from PLAAF still has quota on conventional fighters. 

J-10C is suited for planned air to ground search and destroy, home defense, economic air patrol but not an interceptor with its design aerodynamic sacrifices speed for maneuverability especially at low speed. In situation where speed and combat radius are crucial, the J-11D will be useful to save ground troops under imminent enemy air and ground threats. 

Take conflict in Ladakh for example, the nearest PLAAF airbase is 700miles away, J-11D on full internal fuel has the speed and combat radius to reach there soon enough and with refuelling tanker ready while on way home. Nearest IAF airbase is only 300 miles from border and their Su-30MKI won't have issue on combat radius. Their rafales however would need drop tanks to reach.


fallstuff said:


> How many sukhois china copied ?



Reverse engineered, replicate & improved to be precise, not copy.

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## LKJ86

J-16





Via @西部空天 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-16

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> J-16
> View attachment 717598




Simply an amazing aircraft but I'm indeed puzzled that we haven't seen any new J-16D aircraft?! Any idea why?


----------



## LKJ86

J-11B










Via @ 西部空天 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-16 and J-11B






















Via @空军新闻 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-11B and J-11BS






















Via @央广军事 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-11BH and J-11BSH





































Via @海军新闻 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-11BSH
   




Via @牧星人拓拔尊 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-11B and J-11BS
















Via @西部空天 from Weixin

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> J-11BSH
> 
> View attachment 719539
> 
> Via @牧星人拓拔尊 from Weibo




Wow ... PLAN Naval Aviation also started to use low visibility aircraft numbers!

This one looks like a 82 or maybe 92?


----------



## LKJ86

J-16















































Via @西部空天 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-11BH and J-11BSH




























Via @央广军事 from Weibo

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## Polestar 2

fallstuff said:


> How many sukhois china copied ?


China paid for the design of Su-27 series and are free to twit for any changes. Even the Mig-21 design are gift by Soviet union to China and F-7 ,J-9L are all legal modification planes from that series.

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## LKJ86

J-16

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## LKJ86

J-16

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## ozranger

Very informative article on the WS-10 engine by analysing it's jet flame colours. Original is in Chinese but Google Translate should help you read in English. The obvious conclusion is WS-10 has greater thrust compared to AL-31F.



https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/nANDdYvzwT2kSOklzWQogQ



WS-10





AL-31F

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## Deino

ozranger said:


> ... The obvious conclusion is WS-10 has greater thrust compared to AL-31F.




Thanks and indeed "interesting" ... however to come to the conclusion the WS-10 has a "greater thrust compared to AL-31F" based on a lower exhaust temperature and that based on colours is a bit far-fetched!

Even more since today most engines are aimed for even higher temperatures in order to increase their efficiency ... as such a contra-argument could now be to say "the WS-10 has a lower exhaust temperature, and as such a lower core temperature, which would be a hint it is not as efficient and technology-wise "older" or at least less modern!"

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## GiantPanda

Deino said:


> Thanks and indeed "interesting" ... however to come to the conclusion the WS-10 has a "greater thrust compared to AL-31F" based on a lower exhaust temperature and that based on colours is a bit far-fetched!
> 
> Even more since today most engines are aimed for even higher temperatures in order to increase their efficiency ... as such a contra-argument could now be to say "the WS-10 has a lower exhaust temperature, and as such a lower core temperature, which would be a hint it is not as efficient and technology-wise "older" or at least less modern!"



If engine 2 can launch the same weight (that of a Flanker in this case) as engine 1 at a lower temperature then it can launch more than engine 1 when the temperature is the same for both.

Anyways, the science is not exact and efficiency is another question

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## Deino

GiantPanda said:


> If engine 2 can launch the same weight (that of a Flanker in this case) as engine 1 at a lower temperature then it can launch more than engine 1 when the temperature is the same for both.
> 
> Anyways, the science is not exact and efficiency is another question




Agreed and I only wanted to show that such a claim based on orange vs. blue flames have also a second side of the medal.

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## ozranger

Deino said:


> Thanks and indeed "interesting" ... however to come to the conclusion the WS-10 has a "greater thrust compared to AL-31F" based on a lower exhaust temperature and that based on colours is a bit far-fetched!
> 
> Even more since today most engines are aimed for even higher temperatures in order to increase their efficiency ... as such a contra-argument could now be to say "the WS-10 has a lower exhaust temperature, and as such a lower core temperature, which would be a hint it is not as efficient and technology-wise "older" or at least less modern!"



I think the higher and hence the better temperature refers to temperature of heated or burned air flow *before* *the turbine*, which is obviously the higher the better, not the jet flows at exhausting nozzles. Turbo fan engines normally have much greater thrust than turbo jet engines with cores on similar specs but with much lower temperature at final jet flows.

The guy who wrote the article iterates through what he saw in the jet flames, which supports his assertion that WS-10 has greater thrust in same or similar working conditions, that WS-10 has

- lower jet flow temperature
- lower speed of the jet flows when the aircraft takes off in relatively low speed (by noticing the Mach loops in the last picture of a J-11A with AL-31F in which afterburners are engaged and evidently supersonic jet flows are visible, ie. more energy is wasted)

Look, if you have a turbo fan engine with higher before-the-turbine temperature and lower temperature after, the heated air will be more pressurised, energy will be converted more from heat into air pressure and hence the thrust will be greater.

Hope that helps.

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## Deino

Allegedly a J-16 of the latest production batch (07 ?) with the new WS-10 engines featuring the slightly modified longer nozzle feathers. I'm a bit surprised on the tail-art!? 

Is this a watermark on the tail made by the photographer/poster of that image or is it real?

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## Akasa

> The latest rumor (March 2021) suggested that a *J-16* testbed featuring the AI algorithm _Intelligence Victory_ acting as the copilot in the backseat has been undergoing test flights at SAC.


 - from Huitong

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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

Are all the Su-30 being upgraded to J-16 standard?


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## jaybird

Deino said:


> Allegedly a J-16 of the latest production batch (07 ?) with the new WS-10 engines featuring the slightly modified longer nozzle feathers. I'm a bit surprised on the tail-art!?
> 
> Is this a watermark on the tail made by the photographer/poster of that image or is it real?
> 
> View attachment 723837



The watermark Chinese meaning is AI on the tail of the J-16. I would think the photographer/poster would add their own site or nick name as watermark instead of the word AI in Chinese.


----------



## Deino

jaybird said:


> The watermark Chinese meaning is AI on the tail of the J-16. I would think the photographer/poster would add their own site or nick name as watermark instead of the word AI in Chinese.




That's what I thought too at first, but it is a real tailart!

(Images via @ 牧是家 from Weibo)










Tai Hai Chen said:


> Are all the Su-30 being upgraded to J-16 standard?




In fact none has been upgraded to J-16 standard.

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## LKJ86

J-11BH and J-11BSH


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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

LKJ86 said:


> J-11BH and J-11BSH
> View attachment 724386
> View attachment 724387
> View attachment 724388



Is J-11BH naval Flanker?


----------



## Deino

Tai Hai Chen said:


> Is J-11BH naval Flanker?




Yes, just a landbased variant of the J-11B flown by the PLAN.


----------



## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

Deino said:


> Yes, just a landbased variant of the J-11B flown by the PLAN.



Is there any structural difference or is it simply adding a letter in the naming?


----------



## Deino

Tai Hai Chen said:


> Is there any structural difference or is it simply adding a letter in the naming?




Not sure, eventually as the naval J-10AH from CAC - with some additional anti-corrosion improvements. But visibly there are no changes.

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## LKJ86

J-11B and J-11BS






















Via @空军新闻 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-16


































Via @央视军事 from Weibo

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## Deino

Here's the video:



https://s.weibo.com/weibo?q=%23军迷之眼%23&from=default

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## Deino

An interesting observation besides the images itself are the two different nozzles of the WS-10B engines, even more that the left one - an older production batch J-16 - has the new engines, while the right one - a later production batch - has still the old ones.

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## siegecrossbow

Deino said:


> Here's the video:
> 
> 
> 
> https://s.weibo.com/weibo?q=%23军迷之眼%23&from=default



YouTube version for lazy people who want to watch embedded video.

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## ZeEa5KPul

siegecrossbow said:


> for lazy people who want to watch embedded video.


Thanks, cuz!

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## Beast

China's J-16 fighter jet is flawless and much superior to the Su-30: pilot - Global Times







www.globaltimes.cn










"In terms of performance, the J-16 is a superior to all types of aircraft I have flown. Speaking of the control capacity of the aircraft, the J-16 is a 3.5 generation plane with huge breakthroughs in radar and fire control systems in comparison with previous aircraft, said Wang Songxi, a flying instructor at the People's Liberation Army Northern Theater Command Air Force, during an interview with China Central Television (CCTV) on Tuesday.

The J-16 has no flaws, because it is equipped with many types of weapons and can operate under all weather conditions, Wang said.

Explaining the strong combat capabilities of the J-16, Wang drew some comparisons with other well-known aircraft.

Normal people usually can't tell the difference between a J-16 and a Su-30 from their appearance, but many things are difference from the inside, Wang said, noting that there is a gap that makes the J-16 a generation more advanced than the Su-30.

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## UKBengali

Not a surprise if he is comparing the brand new Chinese J-16s with the AESA radar to the Chinese SU-30MKKs that China has with 1990s era mechanically scanned radars


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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

UKBengali said:


> Not a surprise if he is comparing the brand new Chinese J-16s with the AESA radar to the Chinese SU-30MKKs that China has with 1990s era mechanically scanned radars



Su-30MKK are upgraded to J-16 standard.


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## Beast

Tai Hai Chen said:


> Su-30MKK are upgraded to J-16 standard.


Wrong. They are upgrade to fire Chinese PL-12 only. But nothing much has changed.

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## Deino

Tai Hai Chen said:


> Su-30MKK are upgraded to J-16 standard.




This is not confirmed and in fact it does not look that way ... they got indeed an MLU, but there not up to J-16 standard.


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## siegecrossbow

Deino said:


> This is not confirmed and in fact it does not look that way ... they got indeed an MLU, but there not up to J-16 standard.



They are still using twist cassegrain radars. A documentary on PLANAF claims that J-10A has the advantage in BVR combat.

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## LKJ86

J-16





Via 解放军报

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## LKJ86

J-11BS and J-11B
















Via @空军新闻 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

LKJ86 said:


> J-16
> View attachment 733338
> 
> Via 解放军报

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## LKJ86

J-16


































Via @西部空天 from Weixin

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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1389182718278348801

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## siegecrossbow

Deino said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1389182718278348801



His wife is actually an aircraft engineer from the SAC. I guess their marriage story went something like this:

Golden helmet pilot -- during the combat exercise I found this and this and this issue with the aircraft radar and control response time.

J-16 engineer -- no frickin way. This has been thoroughly covered during test flight.

Golden helmet pilot -- oh yeah? Wanna bet?

J-16 enginer -- how about this. I'll MARRY you if the problems you stated are actually real!

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## LKJ86

J-16




Via @兵器知识杂志 from Weixin

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## DANGER-ZONE

LKJ86 said:


> J-16
> View attachment 733338
> 
> Via 解放军报



*What's that under the right intake's hardpoint, some sort of POD ?*


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## Deino

DANGER-ZONE said:


> *What's that under the right intake's hardpoint, some sort of POD ?*




Right is a KG700 (or 600?) ECM pod

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## LKJ86

LKJ86 said:


> J-16
> View attachment 742314
> 
> Via @兵器知识杂志 from Weixin


J-16



















Via www.81.cn

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## LKJ86

J-16

























Via www.81.cn

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## LKJ86

J-16




Via @万全 from Weibo

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## Deino

Based on an image just released by Kanwa Defense Review 漢和防務評論 it seems as if the PLAN Naval base at Huangdicun has what appears to be five J-16 multirole fighters.

Given their light grey colour scheme I don't think these are PLAN Su-30MK2 but indeed J-16 ....
... however so far the PLAN does not operate thsi type.

(Image via Kanwa Defense Review 漢和防務評論 / Facebook)






PS .. these are just ordinary J-15s


----------



## LKJ86

J-11BG





Via @angadow from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Su-30MKK2 & PL-12 AAM







Via @央广军事 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @南部空军 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-16




Via www.81.cn

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## LKJ86

J-11B and J-11BS













Via @西部育鹰网 from Weixin


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## LKJ86

J-16 0612

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## LKJ86

J-11BH and J-11BSH




























Via @中国军视网 from Weibo


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## LKJ86

J-16




Via @西部空天 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-11BS


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## LKJ86

J-16




Via https://weibo.com/tv/show/1034:4646582596075565?from=old_pc_videoshow

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## jaybird

LKJ86 said:


> J-16
> View attachment 752108
> 
> Via https://weibo.com/tv/show/1034:4646582596075565?from=old_pc_videoshow



Probably young pilot Hotdogging for the girls on the beach. But still cool looking video!


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## LKJ86

J-11B




Via 张舒


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## LKJ86

J-11BS


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## CrazyZ

I always thought Flanker type AC were too big for the PAF's but considering the recent Chinese advancements... I actually think PAF should consider Chinese Flanker types to replace the F-16 in its fleet.


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## LKJ86

J-16


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## LKJ86

J-11BH and J-11BSH




















Via www.81.cn

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## LKJ86

J-16













Via @学习军团 from Weibo

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## TNT

The chinese flanker built quality seems to be better than russian ones.
Also i never see external fuel tanks with flankers, must have large internal fuel capacity. But with such a sleek design, i wonder where do they store all the fuel.

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## Daniel808

CrazyZ said:


> I always thought Flanker type AC were too big for the PAF's but considering the recent Chinese advancements... I actually think PAF should consider Chinese Flanker types to replace the F-16 in its fleet.



The main benefit for PAF if they goes to Heavy Fighter (J-11 & J-16) to replace F-16 medium fighter.

Of course, PAF can conduct Deep-Strike behind enemy lines, far deep to enemy territory

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## LKJ86

Via @洋务先驱张之洞 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-16

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## LKJ86

Via @解放军报 from Weibo

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 760567
> 
> Via @解放军报 from Weibo



Interetsing! According to the long sting it is at least NOT a J-15 and due to the longer vertical part of the rudder it looks like a J-11BS twinseater or J-16? But at Huangdicun???


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## LKJ86

J-11BH


----------



## LKJ86

J-16










Via 央广军事

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## LKJ86

J-11B







Via www.81.cn


----------



## LKJ86

J-16










Via @西部空天 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-11BH and J-11BSH










Via CCTV 7 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-11B and J-11BS




Via www.81.cn


----------



## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1423826914628628480


----------



## 艹艹艹



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## Deino

Wow  


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1430790249245036544

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## redtom

LKJ86 said:


> J-16
> View attachment 761291
> View attachment 761292
> View attachment 761293
> 
> Via 央广军事


The manufacturing level of the J16 is significantly higher than that of the J11. Looks like a 5th generation fighter.


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## siegecrossbow

Of late all the J-16 images feature birds with long-feathered WS-10 nozzles.

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## Akasa

Huitong:


> The latest rumor (October 2021) suggested that the first serial production J-11D just rolled down the assembly line.



Possible source: https://weibo.com/6095935299/KDWO1pzlE

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## Deino

Akasa said:


> Huitong:
> 
> Possible source: https://weibo.com/6095935299/KDWO1pzlE




But wasn't the original "source" - aka @鼎盛大彪 - the same one who claimed, the J-35 had made its maiden flight last week?
So either the guys at SAC are keeping there secrets really tight or he just spreads rumours ...


----------



## Deino

J-16D in service


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1456971798168408068

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## khanasifm



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## kungfugymnast

This man said J-11D prototype undergone testing superior than Su-35. Deino kept saying there won't be J-11D so who is right?

Also noticed the specifications of few flankers variants in Wikipedia kept changing the top speed therefore need clarification from those know how here:

Su-27SK
Max speed Mach 2.35
Max thrust per engine 27,600lb aft

J-11A
Max speed Mach 2.1
Max thrust per engine 29,670lb aft

Su-33
Max speed Mach 2.1
Max thrust per engine 28,200lb aft

J-15A
Max speed Mach 2.4
Max thrust per engine 27,600lb aft

J-16
Max speed Mach 2
Max thrust per engine 31,000lb aft

Su-30MKK
Max speed Mach 2
Max thrust per engine 28,000lb aft

Su-35S
Max speed Mach 2.25
Max thrust per engine 32,000lb aft

Earlier from military aircraft encyclopedia with information from military expo, they all stated Su-27/30/35 without forward canard max speed at Mach 2.35 while Su-30MK/35 with forward canard max speed reduced to Mach 2.25. Su-33 max speed at Mach 2.1 due to less aerodynamic design than Su-30MK with forward canard. Only in recent years, all Su-30 max speed in Wikipedia listed max speed at Mach 2 being slower than Su-33 without mentioning with canard or without canard. Which is correct?

J-11A in Wikipedia has almost exact design as Su-27SK except with indigenous WS-10A generating over 2,000lb more, why is the max speed only at Mach 2.1 slower than original Su-27SK?


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## johncliu88

I don't think I will trust those numbers. Just wondering why these figures were coming out from Indian media?

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## Deino

kungfugymnast said:


> This man said J-11D prototype undergone testing superior than Su-35. Deino kept saying there won't be J-11D so who is right?
> ...




The problem is once again; for the sake of your argument you pick up a strange source, "question" with a rhetoric question on who is more credible a certain issue that fits your agenda and connect it with there have been recent changes on Wiki concerning some Flanker's top speed ... so what??

Wiki could be changed by anyone - maybe even you!? - and why should he be more credible than me? And finally, does it make sense? IMO if you are only focused on top-speed you completely miss other aspects like "does a restart of a Flanker" makes any sense at all, does it fit to the PLAAF strategic thinking? 

As such I stand to my argument; It does not especialyl not a new-built ones and top speed is only interesting for kids playing Quartet's game.


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## lcloo

Chasing high speed is so post-korea war mind, thus the appearance of "century series" fighter jets. Vietnam war proved that blindly chasing high speed was a mis-guided doctrine as they found that slower sub-sonic MIG-17 was a bigger threat than supersonic MIG-21, and the super fast F-104 Starfighter performed disappointedly in Vietnam in their MIG killer missions.

High speed is of no use in dog-fight, nor is it an advantage in BVR fight. Today's fighter jet should emphasis on sensors and information processing, as well as capable missiles.

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## Deino

kungfugymnast said:


> I stated in my post, anyone could assist to correct the mistakes by Wikipedia and explained why are the top speed of few flankers different. Since you claimed you're more expert than aircraft engineers on aerodynamic, can you provide the correct specifications of all the flankers bought and built by China in their inventory?
> 
> Is top speed of J-11A/B/D without forward canard the same as Su-27SK at Mach 2.35? Also how come Su-33 top speed at Mach 2.1 but J-15A at Mach 2.4 while J-16 with much powerful engines and Su-30MKK at only Mach 2?
> 
> These questions are relevant to this thread, don't try to drag trolling and moderator into this since you said my post taken from aircraft aerodynamic engineers is wrong. Also why is J-11D prototype photo under testing being posted by several authors when you insisted that it will not be built?




Don't lie again ... 

I never claimed I am "more expert than aircraft engineers on aerodynamic" - that's a blatant lie! - I only questioned this gentlemen's credibility, turned down your stupid relationship to speed only and asked, WHY should the PLAAF re-open J-11D production, when there is no need for new-built fighter Flankers and no other rumours say so. All you replied is again some blabla on speed, insults and derail of the real questions.

Even more, not only "anyone could assist to correct the mistakes by Wikipedia" ... in fact "anyone could add mistakes in order do deliberately fool others!" 

Therefore don't troll around since again it is a lie; i never claimed "to provide the correct specifications of all the flankers bought and built by China in their inventory"!

So again WHY should be any of your claims correct, why do you constantly lie, provoke and insult with such post and even more post deliberately BS like in the J-15 thread and when proven wrong start the same story again?


----------



## kungfugymnast

Deino said:


> Don't lie again ...
> 
> I never claimed I am "more expert than aircraft engineers on aerodynamic" - that's a blatant lie! - I only questioned this gentlemen's credibility, turned down your stupid relationship to speed only and asked, WHY should the PLAAF re-open J-11D production, when there is no need for new-built fighter Flankers and no other rumours say so. All you replied is again some blabla on speed, insults and derail of the real questions.
> 
> Even more, not only "anyone could assist to correct the mistakes by Wikipedia" ... in fact "anyone could add mistakes in order do deliberately fool others!"
> 
> Therefore don't troll around since again it is a lie; i never claimed "to provide the correct specifications of all the flankers bought and built by China in their inventory"!
> 
> So again WHY should be any of your claims correct, why do you constantly lie, provoke and insult with such post and even more post deliberately BS like in the J-15 thread and when proven wrong start the same story again?



@gambit
Please assist to explain to Deino the reasons of different top speed for the different flanker variants in China inventory. I have explained to him based on aviation engineering books and answers from the US Navy fighter pilots, my country fighter pilots that I have met. Yet he kept saying those are my own made up story. Welcome back to CDF by the way.


@WebMaster
Do not pick side and stay neutral. Gambit is far more knowledgeable and could explain on aerodynamic better since he has flown real combat aircraft. Many including you sure wanted to know why the different flankers have different top speed. The photo below taken during US friendly port of call where I got a tour together with local military, PLA general & Pakistan admiral. I asked the pilots on aerodynamic of carrier based fighters. Deino said those are lies.


----------



## Super Falcon

For me J 16D really steals the show best electrnic warfare aircraft

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## Deino

kungfugymnast said:


> @gambit
> Please assist to explain to Deino the reasons of different top speed for the different flanker variants in China inventory. I have explained to him based on aviation engineering books and answers from the US Navy fighter pilots, my country fighter pilots that I have met. Yet he kept saying those are my own made up story. Welcome back to CDF by the way.
> 
> @WebMaster
> Do not pick side and stay neutral. Gambit is far more knowledgeable and could explain on aerodynamic better since he has flown real combat aircraft. Many including you sure wanted to know why the different flankers have different top speed. The photo below taken during US friendly port of call where I got a tour together with local military, PLA general & Pakistan admiral. I asked the pilots on aerodynamic of carrier based fighters. Deino said those are lies.




No, and you are either lying again or twisting words. I did not deny the different Flanker versions have different landing speeds. All I said is, the not yet revealed J-15T won't have mayor structural changes and/or external differences as you constantly claim since we already know how it looks like. But you are again insisting - after adding several even more completely wrong claims - I would say this, which is simply a lie. 

Not sure if this is deliberately lying and as such trolling or based on a lack of reading complrehensions?


----------



## Shotgunner51

*J-16D* (Hi-res 1920x1280, 96 dpi)

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

*PLAAF's Su-30MKK radar







*

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## kungfugymnast

Deino said:


> No, and you are either lying again or twisting words. I did not deny the different Flanker versions have different landing speeds. All I said is, the not yet revealed J-15T won't have mayor structural changes and/or external differences as you constantly claim since we already know how it looks like. But you are again insisting - after adding several even more completely wrong claims - I would say this, which is simply a lie.
> 
> Not sure if this is deliberately lying and as such trolling or based on a lack of reading complrehensions?



They just have to change the wings, canard swept angles and it would affect the aerodynamic, cruising & top speed. J-11B, J-16, J-15, Su-27SK, Su-33, Su-35, Su-30 various variants have different aerodynamic because of wings swept angles. Everyone here is waiting for J-15 variant for Type003 actual specifications to determine who is winning. Current J-15A top speed reported at Mach 2.4. If J-15T top speed reduced to Mach 2 or less, then it means swept angle being modified to have low speed stability & maneuverability. The moderator whom I replied to will be main witness. As told numerous times, don't reply this comment.

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## Deino

*Oh no, not you with this BS again*  



kungfugymnast said:


> They just have to change the wings, canard swept angles and it would affect the aerodynamic, cruising & top speed.



Yes for sure, since changing "the wings, canard swept angles" is sooo easy and was already done before! Did you ever check that nonsense you post before you post? 

*ALL *Flanker variants have exactly the same wing, at least in terms of *wings swept angles.* At best their structure was reinforced in order to carry heavier loads. The only truely different one was the single Su-33KUB, which was never mass-produced.

So, again you have been proven wrong!



> ... J-11B, J-16, J-15, Su-27SK, Su-33, Su-35, Su-30 various variants *have different aerodynamic because of wings swept angles*.



Wrong for the second time. I slowly don't know what to do with you!  Is this some sort of ignorance, incompetence or simply deliberately trolling? Seems as if it is some sort of "I MUST CONTRADICT regardless how wrong I am!"

So, once again: *NONE *is different, all J-11B, J-16, J-15, Su-27SK, Su-33, Su-35, Su-30 various variants *have exactly the same aerodynamic wings swept angles! *
And if you don't agree - what you surely do - then prove it. There are hundreds of books and publications out and NONE say what you claim! 

Just in case you don't know to start and check:








> *Everyone here is waiting for J-15 variant for Type003 actual specifications to determine who is winning*. Current J-15A top speed reported at Mach 2.4. If J-15T top speed reduced to Mach 2 or less, then it means swept angle being modified to have low speed stability & maneuverability.



Wrong for the third time. *No-one here is waiting for J-15 variant for Type 003 actual specifications to determine who is winning*. since no-one believes in that stuff you claim. As such there is no quest on winning or loosing but simply "when will you finally admit, that you are wrong"!




> The moderator whom I replied to will be main witness. As told numerous times, don't reply this comment.



Ahh ... I shall not reply since you still won't accept any contradiction to your stupid claims.

So once again for you: No-one expects the next batch of J-15s to have any major changes, No redesign in wing swept angle, not related to canards, in fact NO aerodynamic changes at all.
This is based on the fact, that the known J-15T had no changes and from the few images of the already in production aircraft known - which by the way are again single seater but CATOBAR capable - we know, there are no changes at all; as expected. Maybe additionally in parallel to these single seaters, there could be the some J-15S and J-15D (maybe merged into a single variant), which I expect to be similar to the J-16/16D, but they haven't seen yet and for those too, no changes are expected.

So please take this as an advice and don't make an even bigger fool out of yourself! STOP WITH THIS BS!

@Beast


----------



## kungfugymnast

Deino said:


> *Oh no, not you with this BS again*
> 
> 
> 
> Yes for sure, since changing "the wings, canard swept angles" is sooo easy and was already done before! Did you ever check that nonsense you post before you post?
> 
> *ALL *Flanker variants have exactly the same wing, at least in terms of *wings swept angles.* At best their structure was reinforced in order to carry heavier loads. The only truely different one was the single Su-33KUB, which was never mass-produced.
> 
> So, again you have been proven wrong!
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong for the second time. I slowly don't know what to do with you!  Is this some sort of ignorance, incompetence or simply deliberately trolling? Seems as if it is some sort of "I MUST CONTRADICT regardless how wrong I am!"
> 
> So, once again: *NONE *is different, all J-11B, J-16, J-15, Su-27SK, Su-33, Su-35, Su-30 various variants *have exactly the same aerodynamic wings swept angles! *
> And if you don't agree - what you surely do - then prove it. There are hundreds of books and publications out and NONE say what you claim!
> 
> Just in case you don't know to start and check:
> 
> View attachment 800302
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong for the third time. *No-one here is waiting for J-15 variant for Type 003 actual specifications to determine who is winning*. since no-one believes in that stuff you claim. As such there is no quest on winning or loosing but simply "when will you finally admit, that you are wrong"!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ahh ... I shall not reply since you still won't accept any contradiction to your stupid claims.
> 
> So once again for you: No-one expects the next batch of J-15s to have any major changes, No redesign in wing swept angle, not related to canards, in fact NO aerodynamic changes at all.
> This is based on the fact, that the known J-15T had no changes and from the few images of the already in production aircraft known - which by the way are again single seater but CATOBAR capable - we know, there are no changes at all; as expected. Maybe additionally in parallel to these single seaters, there could be the some J-15S and J-15D (maybe merged into a single variant), which I expect to be similar to the J-16/16D, but they haven't seen yet and for those too, no changes are expected.
> 
> So please take this as an advice and don't make an even bigger fool out of yourself! STOP WITH THIS BS!
> 
> @Beast



Why are you replying when everyone is waiting for actual result? It's just you afraid to wait for the actual J-15B/T. Now keep quiet, don't reply and wait for the actual j-15 that will take off from Type 003. If J-15B/T for Type 003 have slower top speed of just Mach 2 or slower, we expect your apology. 

Your comment here is trying hard to spin things around copying what I have mentioned earlier then claimed you're the one who said that just like bad politician. 

This is your final warning Deino, If you reply this message, moderator should give you warning.

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## Deino

kungfugymnast said:


> Why are you replying when everyone is waiting for actual result? It's just you afraid to wait for the actual J-15B/T. Now keep quiet, don't reply and wait for the actual j-15 that will take off from Type 003. If J-15B/T for Type 003 have slower top speed of just Mach 2 or slower, we expect your apology.
> 
> Your comment here is trying hard to spin things around copying what I have mentioned earlier then claimed you're the one who said that just like bad politician.
> 
> This is your final warning Deino, If you reply this message, moderator should give you warning.




The same can be asked to you: *Why do you keep insisting there will be changes when there have never been any before, when we already know what the J-15T/B looks like and NO-ONE expects any external changes but you? *

Even more all your previous claims ("there are no additional J-15s after Batch 02" - but we know Batch 03 & 04 already, "the PLAN has no J-15s in the STC for the Shandong" - but we know a new unit and NAS at Lingshui, "there are changes in wing geometry on all other Flankers" - when it is commonly known by everyone, all Flankers use the same wing (at least geometry-wise)) have been proven wrong. You are either making things up, misinformed or simply trolling ... 

And now you give me a warning??!! Are you crazy? As such either you admit, you were wrong on your previous claims and stop with this BS or any further reply will be rated as derailing the thread once again and as such as trolling!


----------



## kungfugymnast

Deino said:


> The same can be asked to you: *Why do you keep insisting there will be changes when there have never been any before, when we already know what the J-15T/B looks like and NO-ONE expects any external changes but you? *
> 
> Even more all your previous claims ("there are no additional J-15s after Batch 02" - but we know Batch 03 & 04 already, "the PLAN has no J-15s in the STC for the Shandong" - but we know a new unit and NAS at Lingshui, "there are changes in wing geometry on all other Flankers" - when it is commonly known by everyone, all Flankers use the same wing (at least geometry-wise)) have been proven wrong. You are either making things up, misinformed or simply trolling ...
> 
> And now you give me a warning??!! Are you crazy? As such either you admit, you were wrong on your previous claims and stop with this BS or any further reply will be rated as derailing the thread once again and as such as trolling!



Still can't face the challenge and keep dragging on with replies? I believe the words from US and PLA military personnel more than yours, that's all. The PLA major general (2 stars) said China military manufacturing is just like their domestic business manufacturing mindset, subject to change and adapt to latest environment changes.

Rather than you trying to shut others up with your own opinion, you could just wait for the actual results and see who is right. If Type 003 proven successful, PLAN would not waste resources on building more obsolete J-15A for Type 002 as per China military mindset. There's no point of doing so as J-15A with AL-31 and pulse doppler radar unable to carry full payload just to fill up Type002 won't make itself useful but becomes liability to the fleet during war. Better they spend the budget on building more practical J-15B/T/D and more Type 003 & newer carriers. 

US Navy veteran pilots that served Vietnam until Gulf War said they prefer landing the slower more stable F/A-18C on carrier than the faster F-4B/J. You may check the difference of J-15A & J-15B/T/D later on the aerodynamic flight envelope when revealed. 

Please wait for the results and stop posting anymore of your opinion. Everyone here be witnesses on Type 002 Shandong class (no more J-15A being built) and Type 003 EMALS based J-15B/D/T slower top speed.


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## Abid123

How does the J-16 compare to the SU-35?


----------



## Deino

kungfugymnast said:


> Still can't face the challenge and keep dragging on with replies? I believe the words from US and PLA military personnel more than yours, that's all. The PLA major general (2 stars) said China military manufacturing is just like their domestic business manufacturing mindset, subject to change and adapt to latest environment changes.
> 
> Rather than you trying to shut others up with your own opinion, you could just wait for the actual results and see who is right. If Type 003 proven successful, PLAN would not waste resources on building more obsolete J-15A for Type 002 as per China military mindset. There's no point of doing so as J-15A with AL-31 and pulse doppler radar unable to carry full payload just to fill up Type002 won't make itself useful but becomes liability to the fleet during war. Better they spend the budget on building more practical J-15B/T/D and more Type 003 & newer carriers.
> 
> US Navy veteran pilots that served Vietnam until Gulf War said they prefer landing the slower more stable F/A-18C on carrier than the faster F-4B/J. You may check the difference of J-15A & J-15B/T/D later on the aerodynamic flight envelope when revealed.





Ok, just to be clear ... that's it, say good bye!

There si no challenge you think that may be, since regardless what US generals say and if they prefer slower landing speeds, there are no changes at all. All Flankers have exactly the same wing and if you would have checked the latest news, you would notice, GAME OVER!

As such it is no "dragging on with replies in order to not face a challenge" it is only to correct your BS.

And for the last time again:



> Please wait for the results and stop posting anymore of your opinion. Everyone here be witnesses on Type 002 Shandong class (no more J-15A being built) and Type 003 EMALS based J-15B/D/T slower top speed.



You shall witness - and finally admit - that after Batch 01 & 02 already two more Batches 03 & 04 have been built and that a second unit has been formed at Lingshui.

But anyway ... say good bye to this section, I have enough of your trolling!

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## Deino

Quite a clear image of a PLAAF J-11BG allegedly assigned to a Northern Theater Command fighter brigade.

(Image via @沉默的山羊 from Weibo)


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## Polestar 2

Abid123 said:


> How does the J-16 compare to the SU-35?


Maneuver wise Su-35 is better due to TVC but electronic wise and combat capabilities, J-16 is better. Remember J-16 is AESA while Su-35 is PESA.


Deino said:


> Quite a clear image of a PLAAF J-11BG allegedly assigned to a Northern Theater Command fighter brigade.
> 
> (Image via @沉默的山羊 from Weibo)
> 
> View attachment 801204


Is BG supposed to be twin seat?


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## siegecrossbow

Polestar 2 said:


> Maneuver wise Su-35 is better due to TVC but electronic wise and combat capabilities, J-16 is better. Remember J-16 is AESA while Su-35 is PESA.
> 
> Is BG supposed to be twin seat?



Lookup range of Su-35’s radar is comparable to J-16’s look down range.


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## Deino

Polestar 2 said:


> Maneuver wise Su-35 is better due to TVC but electronic wise and combat capabilities, J-16 is better. Remember J-16 is AESA while Su-35 is PESA.
> 
> Is BG supposed to be twin seat?




Do you see a twin seater?


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## Akasa

New photo of J-11D. If you increase the brightness of the image, you can make out a canted radome.

Courtesy of Oneninety.


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## Deino

Akasa said:


> New photo of J-11D. If you increase the brightness of the image, you can make out a canted radome.
> 
> Courtesy of Oneninety.
> 
> View attachment 803676




Indeed ...

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## aliyusuf



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## GiantPanda

PLAAF decided to keep a single-seater to go along with the J-16? Also looking like the Navy will get J-15D with twin seats.

So SAC will end up with four flanker variants being built into the immediate future -- J-11D/J-16 and J-15T/J-15D?


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## Deino

GiantPanda said:


> PLAAF decided to keep a single-seater to go along with the J-16?  Also looking like the Navy will get J-15D with twin seats.
> 
> So SAC will end up with four flanker variants being built into the immediate future -- J-11D/J-16 and J-15T/J-15D?




Actually we don't know when this image was taken, so that assuming, SAC still builds single seater AF-variants is a bit premature.

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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1478853206478409728

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## S10

Akasa said:


> New photo of J-11D. If you increase the brightness of the image, you can make out a canted radome.
> 
> Courtesy of Oneninety.
> 
> View attachment 803676


I heard a rumor that J-11D is an upgrade kit for existing J-11B rather than new planes.


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## lcloo

S10 said:


> I heard a rumor that J-11D is an upgrade kit for existing J-11B rather than new planes.


Make sense, production of J11 should be at the end. Upgrading existing J11A/B to J11D standard would take a few years, therafter the production lines should be retooled for making J31/j35.

Catapult variant J15 and J16 /J16D are probably the last of Chinese Flankers to be built with new air frames.

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## Shotgunner51

Wow, current active duty J-11B retrofitted with WS-10B, that's an interesting development! @Deino


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1483342127354556424

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## Shotgunner51

When media attention is attracted to F-35C crash in SCS, J-11D was spotted in combat action for the first time after its public appearance. Two J-16D, along with eight J-16, one Y-8 ASW, two H-6 entered TW southwest ADIZ on the same day (January 24, 2022).

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## Shotgunner51

J-11B under Western Theater Command during an emergency support exercise in late January, 2022. Also see the details of WS-10A, PL-8 & PL-12.

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## Deino

Shotgunner51 said:


> J-11B under Western Theater Command during an emergency support exercise in late January, 2022
> 
> View attachment 814275
> View attachment 814276
> View attachment 814277
> View attachment 814278




WTC? ... so eventually 111th Air Brigade at Korla?


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## Shotgunner51

Deino said:


> WTC? ... so eventually 111th Air Brigade at Korla?


Yes likely, 11B & BS could've been with 111th Brigade around 2012~2013 (when 37th Division 111th Reg merged with Korla AB) I think. Also see the details of WS-10A, PL-8 & PL-12.

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## Shotgunner51

J-16 under WTC in refueling exercise on February 20, 2022 (HiRes)

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## Deino

Shotgunner51 said:


> J-16 under WTC in refueling exercise on February 20, 2022 (HiRes)
> 
> View attachment 821882




And even more important, it is a Batch 09 J-16!

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## Shotgunner51

Deino said:


> And even more important, it is a Batch 09 J-16!
> 
> View attachment 822003


Yes apparently 08 batch was just seen in January, and now 09, seems like PLAAF is inducting this at breakneck speed!

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## Deino

Yes … about one batch per year and if my information is correct, that 24 aircraft per batch

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## Deino

Red Dragon 'Flankers'


Noted for its exceptional performance, the Sukhoi Su-27 is not only one of the most capable fourth-generation fighters but its development history is also remarkably rich. The ‘Flanker’ story took on a new industrial and political dimension wh




www.casematepublishers.com

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## Ali_Baba

Deino said:


> Red Dragon 'Flankers'
> 
> 
> Noted for its exceptional performance, the Sukhoi Su-27 is not only one of the most capable fourth-generation fighters but its development history is also remarkably rich. The ‘Flanker’ story took on a new industrial and political dimension wh
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.casematepublishers.com



But - will it be any good? .... i dont want to spend £38.99 to find out it is not good ..


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## Deino

Ali_Baba said:


> But - will it be any good? .... i dont want to spend £38.99 to find out it is not good ..




If you think these are good, then this will be too  ... at least I promise to do my very best!






| Harpia Publishing







www.harpia-publishing.com

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## world of power

Ali_Baba said:


> But - will it be any good? .... i dont want to spend £38.99 to find out it is not good ..


much better and modernized than russian variants; although flanker was created by russia, it is now evolved by china

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## Deino

world of power said:


> much better and modernized than russian variants; although flanker was created by russia, it is now evolved by china




I think he was questioning if my book would be good?

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## Ali_Baba

Deino said:


> I think he was questioning if my book would be good?



I was pulling your leg - I am sure it will be excellent !

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## world of power

world of power said:


> much better and modernized than russian variants; although flanker was created by russia, it is now evolved by china





Deino said:


> I think he was questioning if my book would be good?





Ali_Baba said:


> I was pulling your leg - I am sure it will be excellent !


oops; thanks for correction; would you delete all comments


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## Shotgunner51

J-16 and helmet (of pilot) details

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## Death_Angels

I have a question. Does J-16 production continue?


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## lcloo

Death_Angels said:


> I have a question. Does J-16 production continue?


Yes, production is running and will continue until a new 5th gen stealth fighter bomber (JH-XX) starts to appear.

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## _NOBODY_

@Deino @Bilal Khan (Quwa) Considering the situation of Russa's economy right now, is it possible that they will allow China to export their flankers as long as they get some royalties?


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## lightning F57

I am curious how good the Chinese flanker variants are to the Russians. Is it a case of better electronics weapons and same airframe. With the Ukraine war and how many flanker losses Russia has been reported it kind of gives them a negative image.


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## luciferdd

lightning F57 said:


> I am curious how good the Chinese flanker variants are to the Russians. Is it a case of better electronics weapons and same airframe. With the Ukraine war and how many flanker losses Russia has been reported it kind of gives them a negative image.


Old flanker for example Su-34,Su-30SM don't have MAWS,that make it easy being shot down by MPADM.

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## lcloo

lightning F57 said:


> I am curious how good the Chinese flanker variants are to the Russians. Is it a case of better electronics weapons and same airframe. With the Ukraine war and how many flanker losses Russia has been reported it kind of gives them a negative image.


It is not perculiar to Flankers, the effectiveness of Manpad applies to all aircrafts and UAVs from East and west that are not equiped with MAWS.

Chinese Flankers do have MAWS, can't say the same for the Russian aircraft.

And it is strange that Russians are flying low within the range of stinger missile, i.e. below 5,000M, knowing that NATO had supplied large amount of the missile to Ukraine.

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## Princeps Senatus

lightning F57 said:


> I am curious how good the Chinese flanker variants are to the Russians. Is it a case of better electronics weapons and same airframe. With the Ukraine war and how many flanker losses Russia has been reported it kind of gives them a negative image.


Flanker is a very capable platform in terms of power and kinematics. The problem with Russian Flankers is that they have very old avionics. Chinese upgraded these Flankers with modern avionics. So they are much much better.

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## Broccoli

lcloo said:


> It is not perculiar to Flankers, the effectiveness of Manpad applies to all aircrafts and UAVs from East and west that are not equiped with MAWS.
> 
> Chinese Flankers do have MAWS, can't say the same for the Russian aircraft.
> 
> And it is strange that Russians are flying low within the range of stinger missile, i.e. below 5,000M, knowing that NATO had supplied large amount of the missile to Ukraine.



Russians are forced to fly low if they want to hit anything because they don't have that many targeting pods.


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## lcloo

Broccoli said:


> Russians are forced to fly low if they want to hit anything because they don't have that many targeting pods.


Do you have confirmation on this?

Su-25 does not use targeting pod because it has a laser guidance system (SVP-24) built in at its nose, just like Jaguar strike jet. SU-24 is also equiped with SVP-24 built in, so it also does not need targeting pod.

Also, SU-34 has Platan targeting system built in.

My speculation is that they were carrying dumb iron bombs, and need to fly low to drop the bombs as accurate as possible to avoid collateral damages. This may also indicate low inventory level of precision guided missiles/bombs in Russian airforce, and the need for allocating usage of PGM for high value targets only.

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## Broccoli

lcloo said:


> Do you have confirmation on this?
> 
> Su-25 does not use targeting pod because it has a laser guidance system (SVP-24) built in at its nose, just like Jaguar strike jet. SU-24 is also equiped with SVP-24 built in, so it also does not need targeting pod.
> 
> Also, SU-34 has Platan targeting system built in.
> 
> My speculation is that they were carrying dumb iron bombs, and need to flow low to drop the bombs as accurate as possible to avoid collateral damages. This may also indicate low inventory level of precision guided missiles/bombs in Russian airforce, and the need for allocating usage of PGM for high valuable targets only.



Those can only look forward so very limited targeting systems. Nothing like what modern airforces use.

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## LKJ86

J-11B and J-11BS




















Via http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2022-03/24/content_10143324.htm

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## vi-va

lcloo said:


> Do you have confirmation on this?
> 
> Su-25 does not use targeting pod because it has a laser guidance system (SVP-24) built in at its nose, just like Jaguar strike jet. SU-24 is also equiped with SVP-24 built in, so it also does not need targeting pod.
> 
> Also, SU-34 has Platan targeting system built in.
> 
> My speculation is that they were carrying dumb iron bombs, and need to fly low to drop the bombs as accurate as possible to avoid collateral damages. This may also indicate low inventory level of precision guided missiles/bombs in Russian airforce, and the need for allocating usage of PGM for high value targets only.


Agree. Lack of precision ammunition due to budget and technology.

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## LKJ86

Su-30MKK2




Via http://www.plapic.com.cn/pub/2022-03/03/content_10136990.htm

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## LKJ86

J-16




Via @西部空天 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-11B




Via http://www.81.cn/kj/2022-03/30/content_10144711.htm

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## johncliu88

Just another question. China bought quite a few of the SU-27, SU-30MKK, and 24 SU-35. I never heard about doing MLU for the earlier SU-27s & SU-30MKKs with Chinese made avionic equipments. I believe SAC will be able to do that, right?


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## lcloo

johncliu88 said:


> Just another question. China bought quite a few of the SU-27, SU-30MKK, and 24 SU-35. I never heard about doing MLU for the earlier SU-27s & SU-30MKKs with Chinese made avionic equipments. I believe SAC will be able to do that, right?


Major MLU has began in earnest for J11B's conversion to J11BG with installation of new radar. I think all Russian made Flankers, including J11A made from imported Russian kits will only receive minimum upgrade.

Upgrade for some J11A had been seen, though the effect was minimum like installation of MAWS but not much changed can been seen from outside.

I believe there won't be major MLU for even earlier SU-27SK. The reason is probably due to short remaining useful airframe lives. I am even not sure SU-27SK are still in service or not. SU-27UBK are also expected to be retired in a few years time.

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## johncliu88

lcloo said:


> Major MLU has began in earnest for J11B's conversion to J11BG with installation of new radar. I think all Russian made Flankers, including J11A made from imported Russian kits will only receive minimum upgrade.
> 
> Upgrade for some J11A had been seen, though the effect was minimum like installation of MAWS but not much changed can been seen from outside.
> 
> I believe there won't be major MLU for even earlier SU-27SK. The reason is probably due to short remaining useful airframe lives. I am even sure SU-27SK are still in service or not. SU-27UBK are also expected to be retired in a few years time.


Got it. Thanks for your explanation.


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## LKJ86

J-16










Via @西部空天 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-16




Via http://www.81.cn/kj/2022-04/01/content_10145269.htm

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## alimobin memon

lcloo said:


> It is not perculiar to Flankers, the effectiveness of Manpad applies to all aircrafts and UAVs from East and west that are not equiped with MAWS.
> 
> Chinese Flankers do have MAWS, can't say the same for the Russian aircraft.
> 
> And it is strange that Russians are flying low within the range of stinger missile, i.e. below 5,000M, knowing that NATO had supplied large amount of the missile to Ukraine.


Hello sir, Its difficult to digest that most of Russian flankers don't have MAWS equipped because even jf17 has MAWS.


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## LKJ86

J-11BS





Via http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2022-04/05/content_10145530_2.htm

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## LKJ86

J-16



















Via 空军在线

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## LKJ86

J-11B and J-11BS



















Via http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2022-04/07/content_10146473.htm

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## LKJ86

J-11BH and J-11BSH




























Via @解放军报 from Weibo


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## Zibago

vi-va said:


> Agree. Lack of precision ammunition due to budget and technology.


I fail to understand why would Russia have shortage of missiles


----------



## ozranger

Zibago said:


> I fail to understand why would Russia have shortage of missiles



The relatively smaller economy scale, in comparison with China and America, makes key component manufacturing, especially those electronic components, over costly for the Russians. Same thing happens with the European countries. In the longer term, the US will also suffer the same as it will be much more expensive in the coming future for them to maintain productivity force which can only make weapons but civilian products, since their high end components for civilian use are less and less popular in the world market.

China is quite different to all of those. Every China's major arms maker is being backed by a massive component subcontracting network. All those subcontractors are also making large amount of components for civilian use. For example, electronic component suppliers in China develop various T/R modules made in shared and similar processes for either 5G base stations or AESA radars. Hence they can enjoy huge cost saving by sharing same R&D and manufacturing resources across civilian and military domains. That's also why they can make the Zhuhai Airshow look like a super market of missiles and smart munitions because high end components in China are highly affordable and approachable.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Zibago

ozranger said:


> The relatively smaller economy scale, in comparison with China and America, makes key component manufacturing, especially those electronic components, over costly for the Russians. Same thing happens with the European countries. In the long term. the US will also suffer the same as it will be much more expensive in the coming future for them to maintain productivity force which can only make weapons but civilian products, since their high end components for civilian use are less and less popular in the world market.
> 
> China is quite different to all of those. Every China's major arms maker is being backed by a massive component subcontracting network. All those subcontractors are also making large amount of components for civilian use. For example, electronic component suppliers in China make various T/R modules made in shared and similar processes for either 5G base stations or AESA radars. Hence they can enjoy huge cost saving by sharing same R&D and manufacturing resources across civilian and military domains. That's also why they can make the Zhuhai Airshow look like a super market of missiles and smart munitions because high end components in China are highly affordable and approachable.
> 
> View attachment 831915


They had such advanced assortment of strategic missiles I just assumed that they would have an easy time in manufacturing multiple lazer guided missiles for their airforce but apparently I this isn't the old Soviet Union anymore
Russia has nerfed its manufacturing capabilities out of sheer laziness and over reliance on oil


----------



## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1513394879627509761

Reactions: Like Like:
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## LKJ86

J-11BS




Via http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2022-04/12/content_10147406.htm

Reactions: Like Like:
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## LKJ86

J-11BS and J-11B













Via http://www.81.cn/yw/2022-04/12/content_10147360.htm


----------



## LKJ86

Deino said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1513394879627509761

Reactions: Like Like:
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## LKJ86

J-16



















Via @空军在线 from Weibo

Reactions: Like Like:
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## LKJ86

J-11B







Via http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2022-04/17/content_10148567.htm

Reactions: Like Like:
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## LKJ86

J-16







Via 解放军报

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## lcloo

SU-30MKK, already served for 20-21 years in PLAAF.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


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## CAPRICORN-88

​Big Blow To Chinese & Russian Air Force As Their ‘Most Advanced’ Fighter Jet Is Being Decoded By US, UK Scientists​By
Ashish Dangwal
April 20, 2022

*The Ukraine war has seen Russia losing a significant number of aircraft, tanks and armored vehicles. The biggest shock, though, was the revelation that Moscow’s most advanced non-stealth fighter plane, Su-35, had been shot down by Ukrainian forces.*

It now looks like it is destined to become a critical challenge for the Kremlin, as its most advanced piece of technology may slip into the hands of the United States.

The secret long-range targeting system of Russia’s most sophisticated fighter plane is being examined by British and American scientists, Express reported. Though the aircraft was destroyed, reports claim that enough of the targeting system remained for a thorough examination.

The fighter jet, dubbed “Flanker” by NATO, was undertaking a so-called Suppression of Enemy Air Defenses (SEAD) operation when it was brought down near Izium, some 75 miles east of Kharkiv, on April 3, as previously reported by the EurAsian Times. 

Now, as scientists in the United States and the United Kingdom investigate the remnants of a fighter jet, experts believe it might make a “huge difference” in how the West conducts air-to-air warfare with both Russia and China, inflicting a severe blow to Russia’s military and industrial complex.

Specialists from the Ukrainian Air Force were able to recover critical and previously secret pieces from the wreckage and notify British intelligence. The systems were then taken to the Government’s Defence, Science and Technology Laboratory (DSTL) in Porton Down, Wiltshire, where boffins and two US Air Force specialists spent 10 days analyzing them, the report revealed. 

*China Keeping A Close Eye*​Considering that the Chinese PLAAF (People’s Liberation Army Air Force) possesses, after Russia, the world’s biggest fleet of Su-35 fighter planes, this news may come as a shock to its military planners. China signed a $2 billion contract with Russia in 2015 to purchase 24 of the 4.5 generation extremely maneuverable aircraft. 

This discovery, however, may not only expose systems to NATO counter-measures but may also jeopardize future military sales to other nations, a critical income source for cash-strapped Russia. 

EurAsian Times.


----------



## GiantPanda

CAPRICORN-88 said:


> ​Big Blow To Chinese & Russian Air Force As Their ‘Most Advanced’ Fighter Jet Is Being Decoded By US, UK Scientists​By
> Ashish Dangwal
> April 20, 2022
> 
> *The Ukraine war has seen Russia losing a significant number of aircraft, tanks and armored vehicles. The biggest shock, though, was the revelation that Moscow’s most advanced non-stealth fighter plane, Su-35, had been shot down by Ukrainian forces.*
> 
> It now looks like it is destined to become a critical challenge for the Kremlin, as its most advanced piece of technology may slip into the hands of the United States.
> 
> The secret long-range targeting system of Russia’s most sophisticated fighter plane is being examined by British and American scientists, Express reported. Though the aircraft was destroyed, reports claim that enough of the targeting system remained for a thorough examination.
> 
> The fighter jet, dubbed “Flanker” by NATO, was undertaking a so-called Suppression of Enemy Air Defenses (SEAD) operation when it was brought down near Izium, some 75 miles east of Kharkiv, on April 3, as previously reported by the EurAsian Times.
> 
> Now, as scientists in the United States and the United Kingdom investigate the remnants of a fighter jet, experts believe it might make a “huge difference” in how the West conducts air-to-air warfare with both Russia and China, inflicting a severe blow to Russia’s military and industrial complex.
> 
> Specialists from the Ukrainian Air Force were able to recover critical and previously secret pieces from the wreckage and notify British intelligence. The systems were then taken to the Government’s Defence, Science and Technology Laboratory (DSTL) in Porton Down, Wiltshire, where boffins and two US Air Force specialists spent 10 days analyzing them, the report revealed.
> 
> *China Keeping A Close Eye*​Considering that the Chinese PLAAF (People’s Liberation Army Air Force) possesses, after Russia, the world’s biggest fleet of Su-35 fighter planes, this news may come as a shock to its military planners. China signed a $2 billion contract with Russia in 2015 to purchase 24 of the 4.5 generation extremely maneuverable aircraft.
> 
> This discovery, however, may not only expose systems to NATO counter-measures but may also jeopardize future military sales to other nations, a critical income source for cash-strapped Russia.
> 
> EurAsian Times.



The Indian Air Force is full of planes that depends on parts they FROM Russia and they think the Ukraine war is bad for China? LOL

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## CAPRICORN-88

GiantPanda said:


> The Indian Air Force is full of planes that depends on parts they FROM Russia and they think the Ukraine war is bad for China? LOL


That is because they do not know the real story behind the purchase of Russian SU-35 by PLAAF or why apart ffom the 4, the avionic suite of the rest have already been upgraded. 
It is undoubtedly a great design. 

It is written by a non military journalist from EurAsian and is good for a laugh.  

But it is good to know what they are insinuating.


----------



## Deino

Finally I am allowed to announce it:












Viewbook | Harpia Publishing







www.harpia-publishing.com

Reactions: Love Love:
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1


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## LKJ86

J-11BS




Via http://www.mod.gov.cn/power/2022-04/23/content_4909629.htm

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## LKJ86

J-16


----------



## LKJ86

Via 央视军事 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## LKJ86

J-11BH and J-11BSH

























Via @央广军事 from Weibo

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1


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## Deino

Again I need some help with a translation ...  


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1519997931364958208
One guy mentioned a city called “ever spring” has changed from J7 to J11 ... but does anyone now what city this is?


----------



## LKJ86

Deino said:


> Again I need some help with a translation ...
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1519997931364958208
> One guy mentioned a city called “ever spring” has changed from J7 to J11 ... but does anyone now what city this is?


“ever spring”

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> “ever spring”




Thank you guys 🙏 - "Ever Spring" seems to be Changchun. 

However at Changchun/Dafangshen, I have the 1st AR of the Aviation University Flight Instructor Training Base and not Xi'an or any of the known bases under the Xi'an FA.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## LKJ86

J-11BS










Via http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2022-04/30/content_10151510.htm

Reactions: Like Like:
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## LKJ86

J-11B




Via http://www.81.cn/kj/2022-05/09/content_10153399.htm

Reactions: Like Like:
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## LKJ86

J-11B and J-11BS






















Via @中国军号 from Weibo

Reactions: Like Like:
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## S10

CAPRICORN-88 said:


> ​Big Blow To Chinese & Russian Air Force As Their ‘Most Advanced’ Fighter Jet Is Being Decoded By US, UK Scientists​By
> Ashish Dangwal
> April 20, 2022
> 
> *The Ukraine war has seen Russia losing a significant number of aircraft, tanks and armored vehicles. The biggest shock, though, was the revelation that Moscow’s most advanced non-stealth fighter plane, Su-35, had been shot down by Ukrainian forces.*
> 
> It now looks like it is destined to become a critical challenge for the Kremlin, as its most advanced piece of technology may slip into the hands of the United States.
> 
> The secret long-range targeting system of Russia’s most sophisticated fighter plane is being examined by British and American scientists, Express reported. Though the aircraft was destroyed, reports claim that enough of the targeting system remained for a thorough examination.
> 
> The fighter jet, dubbed “Flanker” by NATO, was undertaking a so-called Suppression of Enemy Air Defenses (SEAD) operation when it was brought down near Izium, some 75 miles east of Kharkiv, on April 3, as previously reported by the EurAsian Times.
> 
> Now, as scientists in the United States and the United Kingdom investigate the remnants of a fighter jet, experts believe it might make a “huge difference” in how the West conducts air-to-air warfare with both Russia and China, inflicting a severe blow to Russia’s military and industrial complex.
> 
> Specialists from the Ukrainian Air Force were able to recover critical and previously secret pieces from the wreckage and notify British intelligence. The systems were then taken to the Government’s Defence, Science and Technology Laboratory (DSTL) in Porton Down, Wiltshire, where boffins and two US Air Force specialists spent 10 days analyzing them, the report revealed.
> 
> *China Keeping A Close Eye*​Considering that the Chinese PLAAF (People’s Liberation Army Air Force) possesses, after Russia, the world’s biggest fleet of Su-35 fighter planes, this news may come as a shock to its military planners. China signed a $2 billion contract with Russia in 2015 to purchase 24 of the 4.5 generation extremely maneuverable aircraft.
> 
> This discovery, however, may not only expose systems to NATO counter-measures but may also jeopardize future military sales to other nations, a critical income source for cash-strapped Russia.
> 
> EurAsian Times.



That's funny. If Su-35 could be shot down by Ukraine, imagine what China will do to Su-30MKI.



LKJ86 said:


> J-11B and J-11BS
> View attachment 843532
> View attachment 843534
> 
> Via @中国军号 from Weibo



They seriously need to put a stop to using high value assets to perform high risk rocket attacks.

Reactions: Love Love:
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## MajesticPug

Deino said:


> Finally I am allowed to announce it:
> 
> View attachment 836635
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Viewbook | Harpia Publishing
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.harpia-publishing.com


Deino-China?


----------



## Deino

MajesticPug said:


> Deino-China?




care to explain your question?


----------



## MajesticPug

Deino said:


> care to explain your question?


Look at the map. The yellowish brown looks like a dino head-body-tail with two green eyes and a funny smirk.

Reactions: Haha Haha:
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## LKJ86

J-16








Via 34号军事室

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## S10

LKJ86 said:


> J-16
> View attachment 844418
> 
> Via 34号军事室



Again with these rocket attacks utilizing high value platform. It seems like China is not learning anything from Russian experience in Ukraine by putting these expensive plane at risk of MANPADS. There is no reason to risk advanced strike planes to perform low altitude attacks with standoff munition and armed drones these days.

Sometimes it makes you wonder if the PLAAF was really competent.

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## flowerfan2020

LKJ86 said:


> J-16
> View attachment 844418
> View attachment 844419
> 
> Via 34号军事室


One pilot looks like a Russian?


----------



## lcloo

flowerfan2020 said:


> One pilot looks like a Russian?


There are many minority Chinese with non-Han facial features.


----------



## LKJ86

J-16

Reactions: Like Like:
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## LKJ86

J-11B













Via http://www.81.cn/yw/2022-05/19/content_10156186.htm

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## LKJ86

J-11B and J-11BS













Via http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2022-05/24/content_10157265.htm

Reactions: Like Like:
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## kungfugymnast

S10 said:


> Again with these rocket attacks utilizing high value platform. It seems like China is not learning anything from Russian experience in Ukraine by putting these expensive plane at risk of MANPADS. There is no reason to risk advanced strike planes to perform low altitude attacks with standoff munition and armed drones these days.
> 
> Sometimes it makes you wonder if the PLAAF was really competent.



Not just MANPADS but any modern AAA-SAM system such as Pantsir S1, 2S6, Mk15 Phalanx CIWS, tactical SAM would pose serious threat to 4th generation & 5th generation fighters under 1.5Nm the effective range of rockets. 

In fact yes, any 4th generation fighters or newer still carrying unguided rockets and bombs today is dumbest move ever, either too poor to buy proper guided munitions like Russian forces in Ukraine or seriously lacking the FLIR targeting pod & smart targeting munitions technology. At the other hand, US F-15EX, F-16V, F/A-18E/F don't carry unguided rockets nor unguided bombs nowadays because they just aren't practical anymore. 

Probably China laser guided missiles/bombs and FLIR targeting pod were still under development testing when this photo was taken that the J-16 wanted to attack ground targets but there's no air to ground missile available.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## S10

kungfugymnast said:


> Not just MANPADS but any modern AAA-SAM system such as Pantsir S1, 2S6, Mk15 Phalanx CIWS, tactical SAM would pose serious threat to 4th generation & 5th generation fighters under 1.5Nm the effective range of rockets.
> 
> In fact yes, any 4th generation fighters or newer still carrying unguided rockets and bombs today is dumbest move ever, either too poor to buy proper guided munitions like Russian forces in Ukraine or seriously lacking the FLIR targeting pod & smart targeting munitions technology. At the other hand, US F-15EX, F-16V, F/A-18E/F don't carry unguided rockets nor unguided bombs nowadays because they just aren't practical anymore.
> 
> Probably China laser guided missiles/bombs and FLIR targeting pod were still under development testing when this photo was taken that the J-16 wanted to attack ground targets but there's no air to ground missile available.


There was this PLAAF insider on cjdby forum a few years back when the place was still open. He commented that it wasn't because they didn't have funding or lack the means to perform standoff strikes. They did these rocket attacks because senior leaders love to see them since they look more spectacular. Rather than equipment or weapons, I'm more worried about the culture of the organization and units operating to please the top brass rather than win a war.

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## LKJ86

J-11BH and J-11BSH













Via http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2022-05/26/content_10157784.htm

Reactions: Like Like:
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## kungfugymnast

S10 said:


> There was this PLAAF insider on cjdby forum a few years back when the place was still open. He commented that it wasn't because they didn't have funding or lack the means to perform standoff strikes. They did these rocket attacks because senior leaders love to see them since they look more spectacular. Rather than equipment or weapons, I'm more worried about the culture of the organization and units operating to please the top brass rather than win a war.


If it's for fancy demonstration, that explains reasonably. Cheaper to launch them too than a single air to ground missile. Like the Wu Jing military movie, he hired PLA to fire rockets instead of missiles to keep cost low. Besides, the unguided rockets and bombs are obsolete in war nowadays, better to use them only for training & for fancy demonstration since there's plenty in stock.


----------



## LKJ86

J-16




Via http://www.81.cn/kj/2022-05/27/content_10158199.htm

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> J-16
> View attachment 848245
> 
> Via http://www.81.cn/kj/2022-05/27/content_10158199.htm




Wow … Interesting image since it shows two J-16s with the right one using the old WS-10B with the short nozzle feathers, whereas the left one has the newer WS-10B Series 03 with the longer nozzle feathers.


----------



## LKJ86

Via @西部空天 from Weixin

Reactions: Like Like:
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## LKJ86

Via 解放军报

Reactions: Like Like:
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## siegecrossbow



Reactions: Like Like:
4


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## LKJ86

J-16













Via @央视军事 from Weibo

Reactions: Like Like:
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1


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## LKJ86

J-11BS




Via http://www.81.cn/yw/2022-05/31/content_10159214.htm

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## Ali_Baba

LKJ86 said:


> J-16
> View attachment 849219
> View attachment 849220
> View attachment 849221
> View attachment 849222
> 
> Via @央视军事 from Weibo



I would love to see a EW J16D variant of this J16 in PAF service one day! Would be a fantastic addition to operate alongside the J10CE's and JF17s as an integrated package.


----------



## LKJ86

J-16
















Via http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2022-06/02/content_10159485.htm

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## onebyone

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1532709473613238273


----------



## kungfugymnast

onebyone said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1532709473613238273



Good that they got rid off the ugly black radome, light grey matches the tone better. J-16 and J-10C are ideal for air to ground search and destroy especially in taking out enemy tanks, troops emplacement, structures, ships & SEAD wild weasel operations taking out enemy SAM/AAA. Stealth fighters can't carry that many missiles & bombs internally. I'm still waiting for LKJ86 to post photos of J-16 carrying precision guided munitions especially laser guided tactical air to ground missiles with effective range 9nm or more like blue arrow missiles.


----------



## Deino

kungfugymnast said:


> Good that they got rid off the ugly black radome, light grey matches the tone better. J-16 and J-10C are ideal for air to ground search and destroy especially in taking out enemy tanks, troops emplacement, structures, ships & SEAD wild weasel operations taking out enemy SAM/AAA. Stealth fighters can't carry that many missiles & bombs internally. I'm still waiting for LKJ86 to post photos of J-16 carrying precision guided munitions especially laser guided tactical air to ground missiles with effective range 9nm or more like blue arrow missiles.




You confuse this with the J-11B … no j-16 ever had a black radome.


----------



## LKJ86

J-16































Via @央广军事 from Weibo

Reactions: Like Like:
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## casual

S10 said:


> Again with these rocket attacks utilizing high value platform. It seems like China is not learning anything from Russian experience in Ukraine by putting these expensive plane at risk of MANPADS. There is no reason to risk advanced strike planes to perform low altitude attacks with standoff munition and armed drones these days.
> 
> Sometimes it makes you wonder if the PLAAF was really competent.


Zoom and boom. No chance MANPADS can intercept.


----------



## fatman17

J16 EW variant

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## LKJ86

J-11BSH













Via http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2022-06/07/content_10161099.htm

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## LKJ86

J-11BS





Via http://www.81.cn/kj/2022-06/08/content_10161329.htm

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## kungfugymnast

Deino said:


> You confuse this with the J-11B … no j-16 ever had a black radome.


I was comparing the J-16 against J-11B color marking. Also J-10C vs J-10A color marking.


----------



## Deino

kungfugymnast said:


> I was comparing the J-16 against J-11B color marking. Also J-10C vs J-10A color marking.




No, you clearly said "Good that they got rid off the ugly black radome, light grey matches the tone better", which is simply WRONG! You were not comparing, you were assuming they replaced the original black ones on the J-11B with new grey ones since you again did not care or do not know better. And now - similar like you try to portray or false claims from months ago concerning "end of J-15 production, no J-15s for Shandong and no in the SCS" as correct instead of simply admitting you were wrong!


----------



## LKJ86

J-16



















Via http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2022-06/13/content_10162139.htm

Reactions: Like Like:
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## LKJ86

J-11B and J-11BS




Via http://www.mod.gov.cn/power/2022-06/13/content_4912835.htm

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## LKJ86

J-16







Via http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2022-06/15/content_10163163_2.htm

Reactions: Like Like:
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## LKJ86

J-11B













Via http://www.81.cn/kj/2022-06/14/content_10162873.htm

Reactions: Like Like:
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## LKJ86

J-11BSH










Via http://www.81.cn/hj/2022-06/16/content_10163723.htm

Reactions: Like Like:
2


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## LKJ86

J-11BS




Via http://www.81.cn/kj/2022-06/20/content_10164585.htm

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Corax

I love what the Chinese have done with the Flanker family, they've developed it way beyond its original capability. And it's sad that the Russians were not capable of doing this. In fact, I love how the Chinese have taken Russian/Soviet designs and developed them to their full potential.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## LKJ86

Via @央广军事 from Weibo

Reactions: Like Like:
2


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## LKJ86

J-11B and J-11BS













Via http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2022-07/02/content_10167843.htm

Reactions: Like Like:
3


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## LKJ86

Via @解放军报 from Weibo

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## LKJ86

J-11B and J-11BS
















Via @中国军号 from Weibo


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## LKJ86

J-16




Via 空军在线

Reactions: Like Like:
2


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## LKJ86

J-11B and J-11BS

















Via http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2022-07/14/content_10170534.htm

Reactions: Like Like:
3


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## LKJ86

Via http://www.81.cn/tp/2022-07/15/content_10170152.htm

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1548636620886347777

Reactions: Like Like:
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## LKJ86

J-16

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## Abid123

Now that Russia is under heavy sanctions do you think guys think that Russia will allow China to sell J-16 without permission?


----------



## LKJ86

Abid123 said:


> Now that Russia is under heavy sanctions do you think guys think that Russia will allow China to sell J-16 without permission?


China doesn't want to export J-16.


----------



## LKJ86

J-16
















Via 空军在线

Reactions: Like Like:
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## SQ8

@Deino @LKJ86 
How many of the older SKs and J-11A variety remain in service?


----------



## LKJ86

Via CCTV 7 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1555211567741943810


SQ8 said:


> @Deino @LKJ86
> How many of the older SKs and J-11A variety remain in service?




In fact I don't know for sure and there are vastly contradicting numbers out ... but at least images releases during the recent crisis show, they are still in service:


----------



## Deino

PS:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1555443923316875264

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## LKJ86

J-16

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## LKJ86

J-16D




Via @航空工业 from Weibo

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## LKJ86




----------



## LKJ86

J-11BH and J-11BSH






















Via @南部战区 from Weibo


----------



## LKJ86

J-11B





Via http://www.81.cn/kj/2022-08/17/content_10178840.htm

J-11BS




Via http://www.81.cn/kj/2022-08/16/content_10178503.htm

Reactions: Like Like:
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## LKJ86

J-16




























Via @解放军报 from Weibo

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## onebyone

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1562105004986667008

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## LKJ86

J-11BH and J-11BSH


































Via @南部战区 from Weibo

Reactions: Like Like:
4


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## LKJ86

J-16













Via @bassman1 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-16




Via @航空君 from Weibo

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## Abid123

What is the combat radius of J-16?


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## lcloo

Abid123 said:


> What is the combat radius of J-16?


1,500km, and 

2,000km to 2,500km with aerial tanker support.


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## LKJ86

J-11BS



















Via @Fortress-45 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-11BH




Via http://www.81.cn/bz/2022-09/02/content_10182335.htm

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## LKJ86

J-11B



















Via @西部育鹰网 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-16










Via @前站起飞 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-11BS













Via @XMN-5038 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-11BS




Via http://www.81.cn/kj/2022-09/06/content_10183046.htm

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## LKJ86

Via 空军在线 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-11BS





Via @空军在线 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-16







Via http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2022-09/13/content_10184511_2.htm

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## LKJ86

J-11BS













Via http://www.81.cn/syjdt/2022-09/20/content_10185828.htm

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## LKJ86

J-16







Via @aman928y from Weibo

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## Deino

Slowly I‘m coming to an end … so in case you are interested, you should take at look soon: 

https://harpia-publishing.com/hapbook/371

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## LKJ86

J-16




Via @三七V博 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-16













Via @CAN-MUGUA from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-16













Via @南部战区 from Weixin

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> J-16
> View attachment 882353
> View attachment 882354
> View attachment 882356
> View attachment 882357
> 
> Via @南部战区 from Weixin



Still rarely seen, images of PLAAF J-16 carrying a targeting or designator pods and even here I'm not sure, if it is the YINGS III / /Type 390 targeting pod or the guidance pod for the KD-88 and YJ-91?

And in fact, I don't remember any image showing a J-16 carrying LGBs.


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## Deino

Wow ...








__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1574008390027730944

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## LKJ86

Su-27UBK and J-11BS




Via http://www.81.cn/kj/2022-09/26/content_10187179.htm

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## LKJ86

J-16




























Via @南部战区 from Weibo

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## Deino

Finally we have a clear image of a J-16 with tail number 71303 from the 99th Brigade, allegedly at Hotan AB.

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## LKJ86

Via http://www.81.cn/tp/2022-10/03/content_10188054.htm

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## LKJ86

J-11B and J-11BS







Via http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2022-10/01/content_10188792.htm

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## LKJ86



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## Deino



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## LKJ86

J-16






















Via @空军在线 from Weibo

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## Deino

Can anyone confirm? The 15th Ab is said to be under conversion to J-16!


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1579501430142300160

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## Deino

Finally,



... here's my latest work, the "Red Dragon 'Flankers' | China's Prolific 'Flanker' Family" and as usual, the following link shows an animated preview! Hope you like it



Juicebox Gallery

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## Deino

So, I am the German Mr. Minion?!









__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1580948910909976577

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## SQ8

Russia may have designed and created the Flankers - but China is the one truly taking it in its stride and operational flexibility….

And @Deino is the best one to tell that story

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## LKJ86

J-11BH




Via 高宏伟

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## Deino

Another type in low visibility markings: According to these images some PLAN Naval Aviation Su-30MK2s started to carry low visibility insignias Similar to those applied on the J-15 and the KQ-200.

(Images via @沉默的山羊 from Weibo)

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## Deino

Deino said:


> Another type in low visibility markings: According to these images some PLAN Naval Aviation Su-30MK2s started to carry low visibility insignias Similar to those applied on the J-15 and the KQ-200.
> 
> (Images via @沉默的山羊 from Weibo)
> 
> View attachment 887335
> View attachment 887336


A bit better

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## LKJ86

J-16







Via http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2022-10/19/content_10192988.htm

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## johncliu88

There may be a chance that Russian will buy J-16 from China, possible?


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## GiantPanda

johncliu88 said:


> There may be a chance that Russian will buy J-16 from China, possible?



No. They have lots of Flankers.


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## MajesticPug

GiantPanda said:


> No. They have lots of Flankers.


The Russian Flankers are a generation behind J16's in situation awareness, radar, communications, etc. Save Russian pilots' lives and don't send their Flankers to a modern battle.


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## LKJ86

J-11B and J-11BS






















Via http://www.plapic.com.cn/pub/2022-10/20/content_10193881.htm

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## LKJ86

J-16














Via @东部战区 from Weibo

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## S10

I believe Chinese pilots over the age of 50 must retire from frontline combat service.


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## LKJ86

J-11B




Via http://www.81.cn/bz/2022-10/31/content_10195870.htm

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## LKJ86

J-16




Via 杨盼

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## LKJ86

J-11BH and J-11BSH

























Via @央广军事 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-16




Via @航空君 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-16D




Via @航空工业 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-11B and J-11BS













Via http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2022-11/06/content_10196214.htm

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## etylo



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## onebyone

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1591121103237574663

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## LKJ86

Via @兵器知识山水 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-16 & J-16D




Via @洋务先驱张之洞 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-16




Via @赵昱桦-John from Weibo

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## Bleek

LKJ86 said:


> J-16
> View attachment 896934
> 
> Via @赵昱桦-John from Weibo


Beat image of the J-16 imo


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## FuturePAF

LKJ86 said:


> J-16 & J-16D
> View attachment 896683
> 
> Via @洋务先驱张之洞 from Weibo


Is there any information on the Weight of the pods? The wingtip ESM pods (name?) and the RKZ-930 pods jamming pods. Not sure if it’s two different types of jamming pods?

Could these pods or a smaller (J-10’s max carrying capacity is 5800 kg while the J-16 is 9000 kg) export variant be put on the J-10 for Pakistan. One squadron could be a force multiplier, and allow these planes to be part of the strike package (over land and at sea) all the way to striking the target.

P.S. IF a WS-15 engine version of the J-10 be developed, it’s thrust to weight ratio can be increased 27-30%, possibly meaning it would be able to carry the pods as is, or at least a set of three jamming pods and two wingtip pods instead of four jamming pods and two wing tip pods. This could be made more easier if CFT are used, freeing up space for four weapons; possibly PL-15 derived HARM style missiles and two YJ-91 missiles or two Chinese equivalent to the AARGM-ER long range HARM missiles. Besides a new engine, CFTs and wingtip station for the ESM pods, no other real structural changes would have to be made to a twin seat J-10.

We have to remember that the EA-18G Growlers have a max capacity for 8000 kg, and that they carry 3 jamming pods. So the difference is one pod and 1000 kg between the J-16D and the Growler.

A WS-15 equipped J-10 that can carry 7500 kg of fuel and ordinance should presumably be able to also carry 3 jamming pods (high, medium, and low bands) and two wingtip ESM pods and 4 weapons.

The goal being that the capability of the jamming pods not be reduced so that as small a strike package can be used in a time of war. Pakistan does not have the luxury of numbers so needs to maintain its qualitative edge.


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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1593299912690728976


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## LKJ86

J-16














Via @空军在线 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-16













Via CCTV 7 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-16







Via http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2022-11/24/content_10201194_2.htm

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> J-16
> View attachment 900083
> View attachment 900084
> 
> Via http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2022-11/24/content_10201194_2.htm




And even more interesting! 6th AB confirmed!


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1595785414111121408

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## siegecrossbow

https://weibo.com/1914919243/MgFVq3rWx#comment
https://www.scramble.nl/planning/orbats/china/china-air-force#ZG17109
Suixi received J-16. Will replace the Su-30MKK still operating in the base. Looks like they will not be getting J-20 in the foreseeable future. That said, based on PLAAF experience J-10 pilots transition easier to the J-20 than flanker pilots.


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## Deino

siegecrossbow said:


> https://weibo.com/1914919243/MgFVq3rWx#comment
> https://www.scramble.nl/planning/orbats/china/china-air-force#ZG17109
> Suixi received J-16. Will replace the Su-30MKK still operating in the base. Looks like they will not be getting J-20 in the foreseeable future. That said, based on PLAAF experience J-10 pilots transition easier to the J-20 than flanker pilots.




But even more interesting is to know, what will happen with the Su-35? Will they remain within the 6th AB or transferred to another unit or will Suixi's 6th Air Brigade become a mega-unit with both Su-35 and J-16s?

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## siegecrossbow

Deino said:


> But even more interesting is to know, what will happen with the Su-35? Will they remain within the 6th AB or transferred to another unit or will Suixi's 6th Air Brigade become a mega-unit with both Su-35 and J-16s?



They will complement one another.

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## Deino

siegecrossbow said:


> They will complement one another.




But anyway, this would be a first for the PLAAF: The 6th AB has 24 - eventually only 20 active - Su-38 in service and 6-8 Su-30MKK as trainers. Now according to the serial numbers 65 and 67 additional J-16s and it seems almost as if these could be not only replacements for the MKKs but like you said, complements.

As such, this Air Brigade could eventually be almost twice the size of a regular brigade.

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## LKJ86

Via http://www.81.cn/kj/2022-11/28/content_10201791.htm

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## LKJ86

Via @东海舰队发布 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-11BH and J-11BSH







Via http://www.81.cn/bz/2022-12/01/content_10202564.htm

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## Readerdefence

Deino said:


> And even more interesting! 6th AB confirmed!
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1595785414111121408


Hi Deino 
what do we mean by 61675 number if possible to answer please and 1006 too please 
thank you


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## Deino

Readerdefence said:


> Hi Deino
> what do we mean by 61675 number if possible to answer please and 1006 too please
> thank you




ok ... both numbers have a different meaning. The first is the regular 5-digit PLAAF serial number which consists of the following code: ABxCx, so that 61675 means ABC = 61x7x and xx = 65.

Within that system, ABC minus 611 is the air brigade, that operates this particular aircraft and xx is the individual aircraft within that unit, so 617 - 611 = 6 means, this J-16 is from the 6th Air Brigade, which is based at Suixi and xx = 65 means, it is the 65 aircraft within this brigade, however there are sometimes not all numbers allocated. 

The second number 1006 is the construction number of this particular J-16 and it has this system:

1006 is according to the BBxx system, a Batch 10 aircraft (BB = batch) and xx = the 6th J-16 within that batch.

Hope this helps.

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## Readerdefence

Deino said:


> ok ... both numbers have a different meaning. The first is the regular 5-digit PLAAF serial number which consists of the following code: ABxCx, so that 61675 means ABC = 61x7x and xx = 65.
> 
> Within that system, ABC minus 611 is the air brigade, that operates this particular aircraft and xx is the individual aircraft within that unit, so 617 - 611 = 6 means, this J-16 is from the 6th Air Brigade, which is based at Suixi and xx = 65 means, it is the 65 aircraft within this brigade, however there are sometimes not all numbers allocated.
> 
> The second number 1006 is the construction number of this particular J-16 and it has this system:
> 
> 1006 is according to the BBxx system, a Batch 10 aircraft (BB = batch) and xx = the 6th J-16 within that batch.
> 
> Hope this helps.


Hi Deino that’s a great help from you to explain all this in detailed for me with all the numbers around 
thank you

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## LKJ86

J-16























Via @央广军事 from Weibo

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> J-16
> View attachment 903736
> View attachment 903738
> View attachment 903739
> View attachment 903740
> View attachment 903741
> View attachment 903742
> View attachment 903743
> 
> Via @央广军事 from Weibo




7th Air Brigade? ... a J-16 unit in the ETC and the badge is clearly not from the 40th?

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## LKJ86

J-16




























Via @解放军报 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-16







Via http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2022-12/16/content_10206150.htm


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## S10

Why are they still performing low altitude dumb bomb drops and rocket attacks with this kind of expensive asset? At this altitude, even MANPADS are a major threat.

I am worried about PLAAF's institutional ability to learn from Ukraine.

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## casual

S10 said:


> Why are they still performing low altitude dumb bomb drops and rocket attacks with this kind of expensive asset? At this altitude, even MANPADS are a major threat.
> 
> I am worried about PLAAF's institutional ability to learn from Ukraine.


so you are saying they should train with million dollar air to ground missiles?

you got to let the pilots blow stuff up to build confidence.

Reactions: Haha Haha:
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## GiantPanda

casual said:


> so you are saying they should train with million dollar air to ground missiles?
> 
> you got to let the pilots blow stuff up to build confidence.



Exactly. I'm pretty sure they practice with smart munition but it is not likely to be a daily routine for any air force not just China's.


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## S10

casual said:


> so you are saying they should train with million dollar air to ground missiles?
> 
> you got to let the pilots blow stuff up to build confidence.


Those in-flight training hours could be better spend doing BCM.

Performing rocket attacks with high value platform is the air force equivalent of shattering stones on your chest. Sure it looks flashy but quite useless.


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## Deino

PLAN NA J-11BH and J-11BSH fighters spotting the new low visibility markings and numbers.

Unfortunately they came out only after my PLA Flanker book and the profiles were done.

(Images via @沉默的山羊 from Weibo)

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## Luosifen

S10 said:


> Those in-flight training hours could be better spend doing BCM.
> 
> Performing rocket attacks with high value platform is the air force equivalent of shattering stones on your chest. Sure it looks flashy but quite useless.


My understanding is that PGMs are used in training but the PLA restricts their coverage so they just release dumbfire rocket videos and photos for public viewing.


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## LKJ86

J-16




























Via @央广军事 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-16




























Via @东部战区 from Weibo


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## LKJ86

J-11BS










Via http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2022-12/28/content_10208196.htm

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## LKJ86

Via http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2022-12/30/content_10208459.htm


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## Deino

**​
*

 https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1608539606965948417



*


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## Deino

Deino said:


> **​
> *
> 
> https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1608539606965948417
> View attachment 908421
> *




From the Chinese perspective


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1609173930769801216

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## lcloo

According to Henri kenhmann
_Face à l'accusation de l'USINDOPACOM, la marine chinoise publie à son tour la vidéo filmée par le J-11BSH en question, indiquant que c'est le RC-135 de l'USAF qui a changé de trajectoire à 11:25:17 UTC+8 et s'est rapproché de l'appareil chinois, volant près des îles Paracel.

Translated from French
Faced with USINDOPACOM's accusation, the Chinese Navy in turn publishes the video filmed by the J-11BSH in question, indicating that it was the USAF RC-135 that changed course at 11:25 :17 UTC+8 and approached the Chinese aircraft, flying near the Paracel Islands.
12:30 AM · Jan 1, 2023_

Using the position of a particular cloud relative to the wing tip of J11BSH, it is obviious that J11BSH did not change course, Henri is right that it was the RC-135 that changed course, and gave false information to the press.







__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1609225496163672073


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## LKJ86

J-11BS




Via http://www.81.cn/bz/2023-01/04/content_10209564.htm


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## LKJ86

J-11BS




























Via @空军在线 from Weibo


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## LKJ86

J-11BSH and J-11BH




Via @海军航空大学 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-16













Via @航空工业 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-16





































Via http://www.81.cn/tp/2023-01/10/content_10210454.htm

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