# Pakistan will soon get J10



## LTE-TDD

Check this May 29 news: 

Pakistan get J10 model as a gift which imply J10 will enter Pakistan soon?

I do not know how to post a picture, so checking the photo by openning the link please.

www.cannews.com.cn/2012/0531/203387.html

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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

waiting to see j-10 in PAKISTANI airs ................


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## Arsalan

LTE-TDD said:


> Check this May 29 news:
> 
> Pakistan get J10 model as a gift which imply J10 will enter Pakistan soon?
> 
> I do not know how to post a picture, so checking the photo by openning the link please.
> 
> ?????_?_?



thanks brother..

i dont know whether the model as a gift further strengthen the news that PAF will be getting J10 but there are plenty of other sources, and, offcources need based decesion and current ongoing geo politics that indicate that we will see FC20 in PAF colors soon.

oh, and yes, here is the picture you provided link to:







regards!

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## PakShaheen79

Finally ....


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## SamranAli

Time is no far when J 10 will be flying in Pakistani skies.


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## [--Leo--]

just when they get it after my death come on i m waiting like hell since 3 or more years


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## Arsalan

[--Leo--];2998274 said:


> just when they get it after my death come on i m waiting like hell since 3 or more years



the IAF MMRCA also played some role in the delays!
PAF delayed the procurement till the MMRCA is finalized, it have a physiological effect that PAF have now inducted FC20 to counter IAF MMRCA!

not saying this was the only thing that delayed the process

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## IndianArmy

arsalanaslam123 said:


> the IAF MMRCA also played some role in the delays!
> PAF delayed the procurement till the MMRCA is finalized, it have a physiological effect that PAF have now inducted FC20 to counter IAF MMRCA!
> 
> not saying this was the only thing that delayed the process



Sorry If I may just cut across to make space for my argument. What other options did PAF have for the Indian MMRCA??

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## VelocuR

I don't know which one J10A or J10B, I can see canard.




Example: 
*
AWACS model gift- ZDK-03 few years ago* as thought it was joke or fake. 







*ZDK-03 arrived in Pakistan last year.*

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## Arsalan

IndianArmy said:


> Sorry If I may just cut across to make space for my argument. What other options did PAF have for the Indian MMRCA??



as mentioned in my post:
*it have a physiological effect that PAF have now inducted FC20 to counter IAF MMRCA!*

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## MastanKhan

IndianArmy said:


> Sorry If I may just cut across to make space for my argument. What other options did PAF have for the Indian MMRCA??



Almost everything else with some spare cash----.

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## IndianArmy

arsalanaslam123 said:


> as mentioned in my post:
> *it have a physiological effect that PAF have now inducted FC20 to counter IAF MMRCA!*



I see... A physiological effect!!

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## Nishan_101

The tail sign shows that its a JV which means Radar JV and now it means that Air defence is getting ready!!!!! Understand?


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## IndianArmy

MastanKhan said:


> Almost everything else with some spare cash----.



I undoubtedly doubt..


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## fatman17

*soon*

means 2,3,4 years. just about anything.


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## Arsalan

IndianArmy said:


> I see... A physiological effect!!



one cant deny..
we see missiles test answered by missiles test, from both sides.
we see competition in each wing of armed forces.
so, just to make a news, it do have a countering effect that PAF now have FC20 to answer MMRCA!



IndianArmy said:


> I undoubtedly doubt..


cant see a resonn to doubt this..
its all about money until and unless you are engaged in some strong geographical or strategic bonds.. like India-Russia, like Pakistan-China!
do you really think that US is the best friend of India that why they offered F-16IN or F-18?? no sir, they need $$ to support there industry.. it do not matter to them where these bills are coming from! India is given priority because its a large market and biggest arms importers, thats it!

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## IndianArmy

arsalanaslam123 said:


> one cant deny..
> we see missiles test answered by missiles test, from both sides.
> we see competition in each wing of armed forces.
> so, just to make a news, it do have a countering effect that PAF now have FC20 to answer MMRCA!



Indeed.....


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## MastanKhan

IndianArmy said:


> I undoubtedly doubt..



Okay---then why did you ask---.

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## LTE-TDD

This news is typically chinese style. China will never pubilically announce this type news in advance, and instaed, will show some hint to pubilic in some way (this time a photo). This means the (J10 enter Pakistan ) is offically approved.

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## IndianArmy

MastanKhan said:


> Okay---then why did you ask---.



Read it again


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## SBD-3

RaptorRX707 said:


> I don't know which one J10A or J10B, I can see canard.


The shape of ECM housing at the top indicates that it is J-10A (which is more like JFT while rounded in J-10B). Secondly, its only a momento presented to ACM on his visit to AVIC since AVIC (and CATIC as well as CAC) prides itself on J-10. This is just an exchange. The offer had already been made before and I think thats that.

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## PakShaheen79

Mods please merge this thread with one in sticky section.

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## jahangeer yousaf

good news though jf-17 is a good project but i was more willing that paf should invest on j10-B rather jf-17


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## Safriz

China's aviation news (reporter Xing) May 29, the chairman of the aircraft industry Lin Zuo Ming, met in Beijing with the new Chief of Staff of the Pakistan Air Force Tahir . During the talks, the two sides talked on the implementation and follow-up of key cooperation projects focus on cooperation in the direction of a frank and friendly discussion.

Tahir thank the aircraft industry on the strong support of the Pakistan Air Force, and made &#8203;&#8203;valuable suggestions from the user point of view on the subsequent development of the project.

LinZuoMing Group units as soon as possible to come up with practical solutions to resolve the concern of the Pakistan Air Force. Lin Zuo Ming also said that the aircraft industry not only to the Pakistan Air Force to provide quality equipment, but also to help the Pakistani Air Force to establish their own national defense capacity, Tahir, Chief of Staff term of office, China and Pakistan to carry out more cooperation.

Finally, the mutual commitment will spare no effort to promote the project to achieve greater success, to enhance the partnership.

International Affairs in the aircraft industry, AVIC aviation equipment, CATIC leadership attended the meeting.

?????_?_?

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## Backbencher

Will paf get j10 before 2014 ??
I asked this out of curiosity cause iaf will get its first squadran of rafa in 2014


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## Imran Khan

Akash A. said:


> Will paf get j10 before 2014 ??
> I asked this out of curiosity cause iaf will get its first squadran of rafa in 2014



paf want forst sqn the day when refale arrives in india .we are looking it may be you guys cancel MMRCA then why should we waste our money ?

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## KRAIT

Akash A. said:


> Will paf get j10 before 2014 ??
> I asked this out of curiosity cause iaf will get its first squadran of rafa in 2014


Delivery of rafale will start from 2015 first of all....but we will receive Super Sukhoi 30MKI earlier...so nothing to worry about.

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## Backbencher

But still nobody told me when will paf have j10


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## lightoftruth

Imran Khan said:


> paf want forst sqn the day when refale arrives in india .we are looking it may be you guys cancel MMRCA then why should we waste our money ?


 j 10b in Pakistani air force is unlikely simply because even china will be reluctant to sell such fighter which they will be using as their main 4 Gen fighter.Pakistan might get j10a that's wat suits paf more, that's wat discussed in Musharraf era.

u might get j10a before rafale first rafale will come near 2015 ull get j10 but 'a'.


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## Edevelop

Sorry ruin the flow but gotta love this pic!

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## Imran Khan

Akash A. said:


> But still nobody told me when will paf have j10



as no body know here you should contact them


Air Commodore Anis Mirza SI (M)
Director Media Affairs	
E-mail Address-pafdpr@paf.gov.pk

Telephone No Office: 051-9507751 & 051-9261300
--------------------------------------------------------------



Wing Commander Muhammad Ali
Deputy Director Media Affairs


E-mail Address pafdpr@paf.gov.pk

Telephone No Office:051-9507753
Fax No:051-9260868
Fax No:051-9260868

------------------------------------------------------------


Wing Commander Mashkoor Hussain
Deputy Director Media Affairs (Publicity)


E-mail Address-pafdpr@paf.gov.pk

Telephone No Office:051-9507763
Fax No:051-9260868


----------------------------------------------------------------- 

Squadron Leader M Nadeem
Media Affairs Officer, Karachi


E-mail Address-mediaaffairkarachi@paf.gov.pk

Telephone No Office:021-9240340
Fax No:021-9512119



------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Squadron Leader Jamila Malik Nawaz
Media Affairs Officer, Lahore


E-mail Address-prolhrpaf@gmail.com

Telephone No Office:042-99220176
Fax No:042-99507963

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## Backbencher

Imran Khan said:


> as no body know here you should contact them
> 
> 
> Air Commodore Anis Mirza SI (M)
> Director Media Affairs
> E-mail Address-pafdpr@paf.gov.pk
> 
> Telephone No Office: 051-9507751 & 051-9261300
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> Wing Commander Muhammad Ali
> Deputy Director Media Affairs
> 
> 
> E-mail Address pafdpr@paf.gov.pk
> 
> Telephone No Office:051-9507753
> Fax No:051-9260868
> Fax No:051-9260868
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> Wing Commander Mashkoor Hussain
> Deputy Director Media Affairs (Publicity)
> 
> 
> E-mail Address-pafdpr@paf.gov.pk
> 
> Telephone No Office:051-9507763
> Fax No:051-9260868
> 
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Squadron Leader M Nadeem
> Media Affairs Officer, Karachi
> 
> 
> E-mail Address-mediaaffairkarachi@paf.gov.pk
> 
> Telephone No Office:021-9240340
> Fax No:021-9512119
> 
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> Squadron Leader Jamila Malik Nawaz
> Media Affairs Officer, Lahore
> 
> 
> E-mail Address-prolhrpaf@gmail.com
> 
> Telephone No Office:042-99220176
> Fax No:042-99507963


 bhai kyun bacche ki jaan le rahe ho


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## manofwar

Is J 10 a double engine fighter or a single one?? Does it have TVC??
And how does it compare with Rafale??(Since it is intended to counter it)


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## Backbencher

lightoftruth said:


> j 10b in Pakistani air force is unlikely simply because even china will be reluctant to sell such fighter which they will be using as their main 4 Gen fighter.Pakistan might get j10a that's wat suits paf more, that's wat discussed in Musharraf era.
> 
> u might get j10a before rafale first rafale will come near 2015 ull get j10 but 'a'.


Then by your logic since f16 is the main 4 th gen . fighter platform of US of A it should not have been sold . 
But look already more than 3000 copies of this pain in the *** is already manufactured . 
I'm afraid your logic isnt making sence .
Chinas main fighter jet is j20 which surely they arent gonna sell in the long run but if PAKISTAN asks them j10b then china would be more than happy to sell it to Pakistan for obvious reasons .


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## Imran Khan

manofwar said:


> Is J 10 a double engine fighter or a single one?? Does it have TVC??
> And how does it compare with Rafale??(Since it is intended to counter it)



my dear engines dose not mean superiority nor TVC its so many factors already discussed here .

for engines look once more double engine banged by single .

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## Edevelop

manofwar said:


> Is J 10 a double engine fighter or a single one?? Does it have TVC??
> And how does it compare with Rafale??(Since it is intended to counter it)



J-10 is single engined, it has TVC, and current 'A' and 'B' Blocks are as comparable as Eurofighter and Rafale.


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## manofwar

cb4 said:


> J-10 is single engined,* it has TVC*, and current 'A' and 'B' Blocks are as comparable as Eurofighter and Rafale.


But wiki says the Al 31 for J 10, that is, Al 31 FN does not have thrust vectoring as it had to be accomodated for the smaller fighter.......
The source given is the salyut website...
http://www.salut.ru/ViewTopic.php?Id=654


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## PakistaniandProud




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## lightoftruth

Akash A. said:


> Then by your logic since f16 is the main 4 th gen . fighter platform of US of A it should not have been sold .
> But look already more than 3000 copies of this pain in the *** is already manufactured .
> I'm afraid your logic isnt making sence .
> Chinas main fighter jet is j20 which surely they arent gonna sell in the long run but if PAKISTAN asks them j10b then china would be more than happy to sell it to Pakistan for obvious reasons .


 
u know how many f16 s USA have? and wat version they use? compare it to wat they have sold.

till China manufacture j10b in enough numbers and till they come up with j20. they will not let anyone touch it.


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## manofwar

lightoftruth said:


> u know how many f16 s USA have? and wat version they use? compare it to wat they have sold.
> 
> till China manufacture j10b in enough numbers and till they come up with j20. they will not let anyone touch it.


Exactly..........any country with superior technology would not want to sell their best..........The americans sold F 16, but their superiority , heavy class fighter was F 15 and it's sales only came after F-22...........Even now they are doing the same.......Selling F 35 and keeping F 22 exclusive...........It's sales will only be allowed when the 6th gen fighter comes out...

The chinese are going to do the same , if the consider J 10 their best......


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## Backbencher

Imran Khan said:


> as no body know here you should contact them
> 
> 
> Air Commodore Anis Mirza SI (M)
> Director Media Affairs
> E-mail Address-pafdpr@paf.gov.pk
> 
> Telephone No Office: 051-9507751 & 051-9261300
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> Wing Commander Muhammad Ali
> Deputy Director Media Affairs
> 
> 
> E-mail Address pafdpr@paf.gov.pk
> 
> Telephone No Office:051-9507753
> Fax No:051-9260868
> Fax No:051-9260868
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> Wing Commander Mashkoor Hussain
> Deputy Director Media Affairs (Publicity)
> 
> 
> E-mail Address-pafdpr@paf.gov.pk
> 
> Telephone No Office:051-9507763
> Fax No:051-9260868
> 
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Squadron Leader M Nadeem
> Media Affairs Officer, Karachi
> 
> 
> E-mail Address-mediaaffairkarachi@paf.gov.pk
> 
> Telephone No Office:021-9240340
> Fax No:021-9512119
> 
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> Squadron Leader Jamila Malik Nawaz
> Media Affairs Officer, Lahore
> 
> 
> E-mail Address-prolhrpaf@gmail.com
> 
> Telephone No Office:042-99220176
> Fax No:042-99507963


Haah mill gaya . 
U've got this info from this site - PAKISTAN AIR FORCE - Official website  
Mujhe to laga tha Imran bhai ke bade uche uche contacts hai .hehe


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## Su-11

> But wiki says the Al 31 for J 10, that is, Al 31 FN does not have thrust vectoring as it had to be accomodated for the smaller fighter.......


Russians never transferred TVC engines to China. And no Chinese TVC engine copies because no engines to copy from.


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## Imran Khan

Akash A. said:


> Haah mill gaya .
> U've got this info from this site - PAKISTAN AIR FORCE - Official website
> Mujhe to laga tha Imran bhai ke bade uche uche contacts hai .hehe



ITS your fault beta i shear with you well known page of PAF web


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## Zarvan

LTE-TDD said:


> Check this May 29 news:
> 
> Pakistan get J10 model as a gift which imply J10 will enter Pakistan soon?
> 
> I do not know how to post a picture, so checking the photo by openning the link please.
> 
> ?????_?_?


If our economy gets better what are the number of J-10 which we will buy for sure ? 150 or 200 ?


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## Imran Khan

Zarvan said:


> If our economy gets better what are the number of J-10 which we will buy for sure ? 150 or 200 ?



sir jee you know something abut PAC new complex in sindh ? why they are building a huge new aircraft manufacture facility ?


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## Zarvan

lightoftruth said:


> j 10b in Pakistani air force is unlikely simply because even china will be reluctant to sell such fighter which they will be using as their main 4 Gen fighter.Pakistan might get j10a that's wat suits paf more, that's wat discussed in Musharraf era.
> 
> u might get j10a before rafale first rafale will come near 2015 ull get j10 but 'a'.


Sir at least do some research Sir J-10 B was started by China on pressure from Pakistan because Pakistan wanted a better version from J-10 A so they went for J-10 B the only problem we are facing is our bad economy and nothing else if our economy would have been better than which we have we would have got them long before


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## Backbencher

Imran Khan said:


> ITS your fault beta i shear with you well known page of PAF web


 
Bhaiya ji fault realised . Ab to gussa mat karo !!


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## Zarvan

Imran Khan said:


> sir jee you know something abut PAC new complex in sindh ? why they are building a huge new aircraft manufacture facility ?


No I sir I didn't had any clue about that please share the details about that I would love to read them


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## Imran Khan

Zarvan said:


> No I sir I didn't had any clue about that please share the details about that I would love to read them



ye leen janab
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...hah-571-acres-land-documents-handed-over.html

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## ziaulislam

i dont think so we are getting it before the thunder production of 150 is over..mostly due to fund issues


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## lightoftruth

Zarvan said:


> Sir at least do some research Sir J-10 B was started by China on pressure from Pakistan because Pakistan wanted a better version from J-10 A so they went for J-10 B the only problem we are facing is our bad economy and nothing else if our economy would have been better than which we have we would have got them long before


 
that's wat u believe. any links showing that Pakistan pressurized China to make j10b ?? ( avoid some blog s***)


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## Zarvan

lightoftruth said:


> that's wat u believe. any links showing that Pakistan pressurized China to make j10b ?? ( avoid some blog s***)


Sir whole world knows it Pakistan wanted another plane china had developed J-10 A but Pakistan was not happy with that model So they asked for a better one So China went for J-10 B and China very long time ago started offering J-10 to us and we also agreed long time ago the only question is when to get them



ziaulislam said:


> i dont think so we are getting it before the thunder production of 150 is over..mostly due to fund issues


Can't say anything to this moment because J10-B and JF-17 are two different kind of planes so don't know may be we get J-10 B before too


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## Nishan_101

cb4 said:


> Sorry ruin the flow but gotta love this pic!


 
Yeah! These are the ones. 70 of them in PAF.


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## lightoftruth

Zarvan said:


> Sir whole world knows it Pakistan wanted another plane china had developed J-10 A but Pakistan was not happy with that model So they asked for a better one So China went for J-10 B and China very long time ago started offering J-10 to us and we also agreed long time ago the only question is when to get them


 ur entitled to ur opinion but I don't think so ,it was China's need China's money and their strategic requirement to have such fighter nothing related to pressure from Pakistan.


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## Zarvan

Nishan_101 said:


> Yeah! These are the ones. 70 of them in PAF.


Exact number is not decided yet it is said final number could be lot more than 100



lightoftruth said:


> ur entitled to ur opinion but I don't think so ,it was China's need China's money and their strategic requirement to have such fighter nothing related to pressure from Pakistan.


Than go ahead and do some research before talking about PAF


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## lightoftruth

Zarvan said:


> Than go ahead and do some research before talking about PAF


 ok. Google Pakistan and j10b u will get defence.pk,some random blogs, a speculated media report,Wikipedia no one says Pakistan pressurized China to make j10b. "SIR" as u seems to be an eminent researcher can u share some links? ( I'm interested in knowing how Pakistan forced to make j10b lol)


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## HANI

lightoftruth said:


> ur entitled to ur opinion but I don't think so ,it was China's need China's money and their strategic requirement to have such fighter nothing related to pressure from Pakistan.



i think china is well aware of PAF standards and they respect it..... thst's why when PAF propose some changes and improvement they came up with an upgraded block B which can serve well for both countries...... And PAF propose all the improvements bec of Indian MMRCA which will pose a common threat to both China and Pakistan so if china came up with some upgraded J 10 B its not some thing astonishing......................

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## sancho

cb4 said:


> J-10 is single engined, it has TVC, and current 'A' and 'B' Blocks are as comparable as Eurofighter and Rafale.



It doesn't have TVC so far and comparable to EF and Rafale by design for sure, but the performance is very different. Depending on what changes the B version will bring, it might be a good 4.5 gen fighter though.



Zarvan said:


> If our economy gets better what are the number of J-10 which we will buy for sure ? 150 or 200 ?



That will have less to do with the economy, but with the differences between J10B and JF 17 Block 3. The more improvements JF 17 gets, the less advantages J10B will have.


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## lightoftruth

HANI said:


> i think china is well aware of PAF standards and they respect it..... thst's why when PAF propose some changes and improvement they came up with an upgraded block B which can serve well for both countries...... And PAF propose all the improvements bec of Indian MMRCA which will pose a common threat to both China and Pakistan so if china came up with some upgraded J 10 B its not some thing astonishing......................


 absolutely, but for now if we believe China is giving j 10b ,which has never been officially acknowledged neither from mod of Pakistan or China .it will be exported once the number's in China are sufficiently met for that it will not gono happen till atleast 5 to 6 years from now, by that time about 2018 j20 will be starting its manufacturing period (its more logical in later this decade).


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## Major Shaitan Singh

The problem is, that you would have to compare J10B with Rafale F3+, because that are the versions at a comparable tech level. However, J10B is only under development so far and no reliable specs are available, only a lot of speculations and that's why a fair comparison is not possible at this stage. Rafale has seen action in Libya and Afghanistan.... Let see how J10B performs in High Terrain of Kashmir and Desert of Rajasthan.


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## sancho

Zarvan said:


> Sir whole world knows it Pakistan wanted another plane china had developed J-10 A but Pakistan was not happy with that model So they asked for a better one So China went for J-10 B and China very long time ago started offering J-10 to us and we also agreed long time ago the only question is when to get them



First of all Pakistan is not in the position to put any pressure on China, secondly, the B is a normal an upgrade version of the A and not a complete new development, so the upgrade was in Chinas interest anyway. PAF might not have been too impressed by J10A, which is logical, since it doesn't add too much for the money compared to JF 17 Block 1, but the upgrade of J10B has nothing to do with PAF, but with Chinas / PLAAFs own interests to modernise the fighter, just like upgrading JF17 to block 2 is in PAFs interest too.


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## regular

LTE-TDD said:


> This news is typically chinese style. China will never pubilically announce this type news in advance, and instaed, will show some hint to pubilic in some way (this time a photo). This means the (J10 enter Pakistan ) is offically approved.


I hope this would be J10B........the newer advanced version that is almost comparable to Eurofighter......


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## tarrar

INSHAALLAH soon we will be seeing these beautiful fighter in PAF colors, can't wait to see them.


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## blackspider

rafale hasbeen in action against no airforce from libya and afghanistan so how it proves that rafale is potent fighter???


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## Safriz

China's aviation news (reporter Xing) May 29, the chairman of the aircraft industry Lin Zuo Ming, met in Beijing with the new Chief of Staff of the Pakistan Air Force Tahir . During the talks, the two sides talked on the implementation and follow-up of key cooperation projects focus on cooperation in the direction of a frank and friendly discussion.

*Tahir thank the aircraft industry on the strong support of the Pakistan Air Force, and made &#8203;&#8203;valuable suggestions from the user point of view on the subsequent development of the project.*

*LinZuoMing Group units as soon as possible to come up with practical solutions to resolve the concern of the Pakistan Air Force.* Lin Zuo Ming also said that the aircraft industry not only to the Pakistan Air Force to provide quality equipment, but also to help the Pakistani Air Force to establish their own national defense capacity, Tahir, Chief of Staff term of office, China and Pakistan to carry out more cooperation.

Finally, the mutual commitment will spare no effort to promote the project to achieve greater success, to enhance the partnership.

International Affairs in the aircraft industry, AVIC aviation equipment, CATIC leadership attended the meeting.

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...kistan-will-soon-get-j10-2.html#ixzz1wXPuK7AH



THAT MEANS THE PROJECT ISNT FINISHED YET AND CHANGES NEED TO BE MADE


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## sancho

blackspider said:


> rafale hasbeen in action against no airforce from libya and afghanistan so how it proves that rafale is potent fighter???



Is it their fault that Libyan airforce decided not to go against it, while the Rafales were in recon or strike roles, even before the allied forces joint? The F22 never was used in A2A or A2G in a war and still everybody considers it to be the most advanced fighter right? So that's hardly an argument!


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## Abingdonboy

The J10B may be a good a/c but it in no way is comparable to EFT or Rafale. It just isn't possible at this stage for the Chinese industries to have the same sort of design and production capabitles as established companies especially one like Dassualt that is making the most advanced tech in thei world. The J10 may be able to compete in some flight aspects like sustained turn and the like but in avionics (where modern combat is one and lost these days) there is just no comparison between the J-10 and the Euro-canards apart from some cosmetic similarities which have, no doubt, been ripped off.

+ certainly not the versions that competed in MMRCA ie the EFT T3 and Rafale F3 with AESA, super cruise, HMDS etc


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## SamranAli

LOL at Indian fan boys who convert every thread in India VS Pakistan......

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## Edevelop

Abingdonboy said:


> The J10B may be a good a/c but it in no way is comparable to EFT or Rafale. It just isn't possible at this stage for the Chinese industries to have the same sort of design and production capabitles as established companies especially one like Dassualt that is making the most advanced tech in thei world. The J10 may be able to compete in some flight aspects like sustained turn and the like but in avionics (where modern combat is one and lost these days) there is just no comparison between the J-10 and the Euro-canards apart from some cosmetic similarities which have, no doubt, been ripped off.



What is it in Eurofighter and in Rafale technically that isn't in J-10B?

All have AESA Radar, ECM suite, BVR Capable, same types of Armament on Board , Air Refuelling Probe, IRST, Pods, TVC Control. Canards, almost equal speeds, same # of hard points, same range etc...

If you are talking about avionics that makes the difference, then sorry to disappoint you, JF-17 beats all.

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## Skorpian

Good luck to my Pakistani brothers. This should be helpful to the Pakistani air force if the deal goes well.

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## Su-11

JF-17 is clearly superior to this J-10. Pakistan is too smart to fall for this trap set by the Chinese. When JF-17 is superior to F-16 as per some Pakistani pilots claims, and if J-10 is equal to F-16 as per Chinese claims, it logically means JF-17 is superior to J-10.


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## SBD-3

manofwar said:


> Exactly..........any country with superior technology would not want to sell their best..........*The americans sold F 16, but their superiority , heavy class fighter was F 15 and it's sales only came after F-22*...........Even now they are doing the same.......Selling F 35 and keeping F 22 exclusive...........It's sales will only be allowed when the 6th gen fighter comes out...
> 
> The chinese are going to do the same , if the consider J 10 their best......


Was F-22 there flying in 1977 when F-15 was exported to Israel?  Banda kuch soch kay chawal marta hay

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## Arsalan

Su-11 said:


> JF-17 is clearly superior to this J-10. Pakistan is too smart to fall for this trap set by the Chinese. When *JF-17 is superior to F-16 as per some Pakistani pilots claims*, and if J-10 is equal to F-16 as per Chinese claims, it logically means JF-17 is superior to J-10.



if you ever bother to listen or read a bit more carefully you will notice that that SOME Pakistani pilots compared this with what F-16 model they practiced against, the blk-15. JFT BLK-1 is as good as the F-16 Blk30 or F-16 MLU. 
it can compete with F-16 BLK52 as well for all since both are BVR capable. 

remember we have only Blk-1 in PAF as of yet and as time passes, and the machine get matured, everyone can see its potential!

regards!

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## Su-11

If Pakistani pilots practiced against Block 15, then it means the Chinese pilots too practiced against that don't you think? Where else can they get hold of an F-16.


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## Arsalan

Su-11 said:


> If Pakistani pilots practiced against Block 15, then it means the Chinese pilots too practiced against that don't you think? Where else can they get hold of an F-16.



oh pleaseeee
JFT is no match for MKI as per Indians, have they ever faced each other from which this conclusion is drawn??

dear, these are all professional organizations. if we sitting in our homes and offices can get this much info regarding these planes imagine what those people know who are pain to collect this information only??

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## SBD-3

Su-11 said:


> If Pakistani pilots practiced against Block 15, then it means the Chinese pilots too practiced against that don't you think? Where else can they get hold of an F-16.


There are restrictions on the usage of platforms in training excercises. While Pakistani Pilots had the liberty to test JFT against F-16, The same liberty would not be available to Chinese pilots since US would not allow its platforms to be used in trainings involving Chinese or Russians. However, they had the liberty to test FC-1 against a broad variety of platforms they operate (not to mention J-20 prototypes and J-10A/B)


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## Su-11

That's what the Indians claim, which you don't believe anyway.

JF-17 is for sure superior to J-10 as per PAF pilots. Also by looks alone JF-17 looks a lot cooler and aggressive looking than J-10. J-10 looks like something the cat dragged in, or in this case the Chinese.


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## SBD-3

lightoftruth said:


> j 10b in Pakistani air force is unlikely simply because even china will be reluctant to sell such fighter which they will be using as their main 4 Gen fighter.Pakistan might get j10a that's wat suits paf more, that's wat discussed in Musharraf era.
> 
> u might get j10a before rafale first rafale will come near 2015 ull get j10 but 'a'.


Dear God! how many times!.....
Chinas J-10B fighter to Pak worries India - India - DNA
China to give squadron of J-10B fighters to Pakistan | China Military Power Mashup

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## Secur

IndianArmy said:


> I undoubtedly doubt..



Why ? What makes you think that the only option left with Pakistan is Chinese aircraft ? 

Wont the competitors who lost in the MMRCA be more than willing to sell aircraft to any customer they can find ? 

You can put aside the Russian and Americans of course but then there was always the Eurofighter and the Jas 39 Gripen ...

But always with some " spare cash " ofcourse as Mastan mentioned it ...

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## SBD-3

Su-11 said:


> That's what the Indians claim, which you don't believe anyway.
> 
> JF-17 is for sure superior to J-10 as per PAF pilots. Also by looks alone JF-17 looks a lot cooler and aggressive looking than J-10. J-10 looks like something the cat dragged in, or in this case the Chinese.


superiority and inferiority depends upon your context of discussion. If I am looking at combat performance at high altetude and supersonic speeds, J-10 should outperform JFT. If i am looking at low speed engagements and trans-sonic performance JFT's design is more favorable. If i am looking at range, J-10 outperforms. If i am looking at A2G, JF-17's design and weaponary would be more relevent. This debate of superiority and inferiority is relative, not absolute.

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## Su-11

So JF-17 outperforms J-10 in slow speeds? Cool physics!
So basically JF-17 outperforms J-10 in most of the parameters for its price. PAF pilots were right afterall.


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## Pakistanisage

That is a monumental news as Pakistan needs more high end Fighters besides F16 Blk 52.


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## Haseebullah

I thought that was quite obvious even before.


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## SBD-3

Su-11 said:


> So JF-17 outperforms J-10 in slow speeds? Cool physics!
> So basically JF-17 outperforms J-10 in most of the parameters for its price. PAF pilots were right afterall.


Again you're sticking to the same thing (Like the last time about StrategyPage). Each platform has its limitations and advantages. It's the combination that synergises the overall affectiveness. Just consider a JFT doing CAS and J-10 Flying CAP over it. Both in their relative strenghts, maximum efficiency achieved.

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## SQ8

Abingdonboy said:


> The J10B may be a good a/c but it in no way is comparable to EFT or Rafale. It just isn't possible at this stage for the Chinese industries to have the same sort of design and production capabitles as established companies especially one like Dassualt that is making the most advanced tech in thei world. The J10 may be able to compete in some flight aspects like sustained turn and the like but in* avionics (where modern combat is one and lost these days) there is just no comparison between the J-10 and the Euro-canards apart from some cosmetic similarities which have, no doubt, been ripped off.*
> 
> + certainly not the versions that competed in MMRCA ie the EFT T3 and Rafale F3 with *AESA, super cruise, HMDS etc*



You would be surprised how exponentially Moore's law is applying to the Chinese these days.

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## Abingdonboy

cb4 said:


> What is it in Eurofighter and in Rafale technically that isn't in J-10B?
> 
> All have AESA Radar, ECM suite, BVR Capable, same types of Armament on Board , Air Refuelling Probe, IRST, Pods, TVC Control. Canards, almost equal speeds, same # of hard points, same range etc...
> 
> If you are talking about avionics that makes the difference, then sorry to disappoint you, JF-17 beats all.



I'm sorry to disappoint but there is very little in the way of the J-10 matching or outclassing the EFT or the Rafale. Yes on paper they may be similar but any expert or educated observer will tell you the J-10 is not in the same league. The sensor fusion and EW suite alone on the Rafale is streaks ahead of any other plane on the market especially any Chinese a/c. Not to mention the weapons suite offered is far suproir to anything the Chinese can wield or PAF buy.

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## SBD-3

Abingdonboy said:


> I'm sorry to disappoint but there is very little in the way of the J-10 matching or outclassing the EFT or the Rafale. Yes on paper they may be similar but any expert or educated observer will tell you the J-10 is not in the same league. The sensor fusion and EW suite alone on the Rafale is streaks ahead of any other plane on the market especially any Chinese a/c. Not to mention the weapons suite offered is far suproir to anything the Chinese can wield or PAF buy.


Are you considering yourself as an "educated observer"?

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## Abingdonboy

Oscar said:


> You would be surprised how exponentially Moore's law is applying to the Chinese these days.



You think everyone else is just standing still? Come one Oscar I would've thought you would be able to debunk the idea the J-10 is able to match the Rafale or EFT. You know your stuff and you can see the futility in these amateurish comments surely?



hasnain0099 said:


> Are you considering yourself as an "educated observer"?



To an extent-yes. I have done quite a bit of research in this regard and have been to a few lectures and the like.

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## SBD-3

Abingdonboy said:


> You think everyone else is just standing still? Come one Oscar I would've thought you would be able to debunk the idea the J-10 is able to match the Rafale or EFT. You know your stuff and you can see the futility in these amateurish comments surely?
> 
> 
> 
> To an extent-yes. I have done quite a bit of research in this regard and have been to a few lectures and the like.


have you even seen the J-10 live?

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## monitor

When will this ''soon'' over ?


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## Abingdonboy

hasnain0099 said:


> have you even seen the J-10 live?



Of course not but this means nothing. A modern day fighter is not regarding as potent or capable if they can put on a nice aerial display. And from the outside there is no way of assessing a fighters avionics or combat capability. The way to properly gauge this is through simulations, analyzing specs and actual combat. Seeing one up close or "live" counts for naught.

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## ziaulislam

lightoftruth said:


> that's wat u believe. any links showing that Pakistan pressurized China to make j10b ?? ( avoid some blog s***)


J-10B seems to be independent development from pakistan. i think zarvan meant the FC-20 version was supposedly devloped for pakistan..
P.S i dont think we will get it before 2015 due to fund restrictions


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## SQ8

Abingdonboy said:


> You think everyone else is just standing still? Come one Oscar I would've thought you would be able to debunk the idea the J-10 is able to match the Rafale or EFT. *You know your stuff and you can see the futility in these amateurish comments surely?*



Exactly..
I have a fairly good inkling of where the J-10B stands.. along with the avionics.
To suggest that its Better or equal to the Eurocanards is folly.
To suggest that its less than 75% of their electronic capabilities is also ..a big folly.

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## swathi

Induction of J-10b (FC-20) by Pakistan Air force will definitely boost Pakistan Airforce capablities. In wikipedia it is stated that the deliveries will be starting only from 2014. Has PAF requested chinese to deliver the aircraft soon? Please confirm.


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## Abingdonboy

Oscar said:


> Exactly..
> I have a fairly good inkling of where the J-10B stands.. along with the avionics.
> To suggest that its Better or equal to the Eurocanards is folly.
> To suggest that its less than 75% of their electronic capabilities is also ..a big folly.



Exactly, I wasn't tying to say it was a 2nd gen fighter but to compare it to the Eurocanards, as some members WERE doing, was utterly laughable and false.

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## S.U.R.B.

swathi said:


> Induction of J-10b (FC-20) by Pakistan Air force will definitely boost Pakistan Airforce capablities. In wikipedia it is stated that the deliveries will be starting only from 2014. Has PAF requested chinese to deliver the aircraft soon? Please confirm.



How can you comment on the date of deliveries until the deal is made public?
You'll only piss off the mod above by quoting wikipedia here.
FC-20 will be first on the list,only if there are enough resources in the bag to buy them.


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## GR!FF!N

dunno it will be J-10 A or J-10B,but some Chinese members claimed that J-10B possibly never see the daylight as its engine will not be manufactured...can anybody confirm it????


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## nomi007

Akash A. said:


> But still nobody told me when will paf have j10


it is not necessary to tell you


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## Bobby

Hold on guys...the link news did not mention even single time that Pakistan will get j10....only one picture of model plane that too we dont which model plane......what is going on?.....

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## SQ8

Abingdonboy said:


> Exactly, I wasn't tying to say it was a 2nd gen fighter but to compare it to the Eurocanards, as some members WERE doing, was utterly laughable and false.



Yet.. why can you NOT compare it to the Eurocanards?

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## Machoman

I hope we are getting J10 B not A.

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## T90TankGuy

any actual links to support the claim that PAF is getting the J10?
cuz all we have is a link which does not mention it .

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## Abingdonboy

Oscar said:


> Yet.. why can you NOT compare it to the Eurocanards?



A comparison is fine especially in this context where IAF are getting MMRCA and this is meant to counter the MMRCA. But saying he J-10 is equal or superior to Eurocanards is what I object to.



Oscar said:


> Yet.. why can you NOT compare it to the Eurocanards?



A comparison is fine especially in this context where IAF are getting MMRCA and this is meant to counter the MMRCA. But saying he J-10 is equal or superior to Eurocanards is what I object to.


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## manofwar

nomi007 said:


> it is not necessary to tell you


If you don't want tell anything, why post it on a public forum??


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## SQ8

Abingdonboy said:


> A comparison is fine especially in this context where IAF are getting MMRCA and this is meant to counter the MMRCA. *But saying he J-10 is equal or superior to Eurocanards is what I object to.*
> 
> 
> 
> A comparison is fine especially in this context where IAF are getting MMRCA and this is meant to counter the MMRCA. But saying he J-10 is equal or superior to Eurocanards is what I object to.



That I can agree with..

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## Donatello

Abingdonboy said:


> A comparison is fine especially in this context where IAF are getting MMRCA and this is meant to counter the MMRCA. But saying he J-10 is equal or superior to Eurocanards is what I object to.
> 
> 
> 
> A comparison is fine especially in this context where IAF are getting MMRCA and this is meant to counter the MMRCA. But saying he J-10 is equal or superior to Eurocanards is what I object to.




Typical Amateurish reply.

Just because J-10 is made by China and you don't want to believe in it, doesn't mean it is not good. You people need to get this out of your mentality.

Tell me, what is so Special about Rafale?

Please tell. And by tell me, not the paper specs but real scenarios....combat roles??? Has Rafale really proven its mettle that you have to suck up to it so bad.....and object to any other thing that China develops and Pakistan might get?

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## MilSpec

Abingdonboy said:


> The J10B may be a good a/c but it in no way is comparable to EFT or Rafale. It just isn't possible at this stage for the Chinese industries to have the same sort of design and production capabitles as established companies especially one like Dassualt that is making the most advanced tech in thei world. The J10 may be able to compete in some flight aspects like sustained turn and the like but in avionics (where modern combat is one and lost these days) there is just no comparison between the J-10 and the Euro-canards apart from some cosmetic similarities which have, no doubt, been ripped off.
> 
> + certainly not the versions that competed in MMRCA ie the EFT T3 and Rafale F3 with AESA, super cruise, HMDS etc



As far as IAF is concerned, FC20 systems threat perception is concerned, it should be treated at par or better than our platforms for over preparedness. If we treat FC20 equivalent to say an MKI or rafale, we will need to dedicate 3:1 numbers as constant detterent measure, which in turn will improve our general rating. Induction of J10 might lead in as the single most important factor to increase the number from 128 to 200. 



> It just isn't possible at this stage for the Chinese industries to have the same sort of design and production capabitles as established companies especially one like Dassualt that is making the most advanced tech in thei world.


sir,
there is no way to actually corroborate that statement. What design lacks is usually made up by testing, I know this first hand that, if you have an effective testing plan you can achieve major capabilities in a series of three prototypes what others might have taken 8-12 prototypes to achieve. 

Another thing we need to pay serious attention to is the amount of advance technology vs cost factor. Chinese have proven they can provide significant technological benefits at fractional costs, which was the bread and butter for the russians at one time. If Chinese can replicate j10's capabilities in line with what Mikoyan did with the fulcrum vis-a-vis the teen series, we can expect to see a lot order-books filling in fast. 

IMHO, I am happy to see the potential in an asian system to compete against the best in the world. Hopefully we will be in this position one day.

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## Abingdonboy

Donatello said:


> Typical Amateurish reply.
> 
> Just because J-10 is made by China and you don't want to believe in it, doesn't mean it is not good. You people need to get this out of your mentality.
> 
> Tell me, what is so Special about Rafale?
> 
> Please tell. And by tell me, not the paper specs but real scenarios....combat roles??? Has Rafale really proven its mettle that you have to suck up to it so bad.....and object to any other thing that China develops and Pakistan might get?



Talk about amateur. I am looking at the situation purely objectively. No independent expert would put to Rafale in the same league as the J-10. I don't care whether China made it, that isn't the point. Look back at Oscar's post- he knows his stuff and he agrees the J-10 isn't as good as the Rafale. Regarding combat scernios- be creative, what scernio do you see a 1:1 fight favouring the J-10?

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## lightoftruth

hasnain0099 said:


> Dear God! how many times!.....
> Chinas J-10B fighter to Pak worries India - India - DNA
> China to give squadron of J-10B fighters to Pakistan*|*China Military Power Mashup


 atleast open the links before posting where does they mention Pakistan buying j10 its all media speculation. any links from mod?


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## SQ8

Look at its this way..
Can the J-10B's under-testing radar match the range of the rafale's RBE-2 radar ..yes
Can the J-10B's AESA system incorporate all the modes available to the RBE-2 along with the SAR picture refinement? NO
Can the J-10B's EW suite detect ESA systems and warn the pilot before hand? YES.
Can the J-10B's EW suite(based on what we know with the JF-17 and its integrated and external ECM suite) provide protection by offering both noise and deceptive jamming along with an intermediate DRFM? YES
Is the J-10B's sensor fusion as efficient as the Rafale (offering omnirole engagement capability)? NO...the J-10B cannot attack both ground and air targets simultaneously...it has to change radar modes.
Can the J-10B's Man-machine interface match that of the rafale... YES
Does the J-10B have a HOBS missile and a HMS system? YES

However, these are the specifications of the aircraft seen being tested at Chengdu.. NOT the FC-20..
because the FC-20 is still a fluid concept which has yet to be finalised by the PAF on what has to be fitted..and what not.
It is without a doubt, that the FC-20 will incorporate MORE than this machine that sits at Chengdu.
Hence.. I see no reason not to compare the J-10B or the Eurocanards..
It may not be able to match them in all spheres of combat aircraft performance.. but it certainly holds the ability to match them in air combat.



lightoftruth said:


> atleast open the links before posting where does they mention Pakistan buying j10 its all media speculation. any links from mod?



Links exist throughout the forum, this meeting may or may not have brought up the subject.. 
since it may not have made it into the report..
After all.. most people will not report if the PAF Chief asked the Chinese guest if he would like some tea.

HOWEVER..the current status of the FC-20 for the PAF is still a LoI(letter of intent) for the purchase..and no Order has been placed YET.

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## S.U.R.B.

Oscar said:


> HOWEVER..the current status of the FC-20 for the PAF is still a LoI(letter of intent) for the purchase..and no Order has been placed YET.



They are getting 114 billion rupees during 2012-13,will it be sufficient to proceed on and finalize it?


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## Great Sachin

Is China is giving gift or Pakistan is buying?.....


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## SQ8

S.U.R.B. said:


> They are getting *114 billion rupees* during 2012-13,will it be sufficient to proceed on and finalize it?


 Put that into dollars, then take away maintenance costs for the whole PAF(men and material) less new aircraft..then take away costs for manufacturing and inducting JF-17(aircraft+weapons+training+infrastructure)..and then decide for yourself.



Great Sachin said:


> Is China is giving gift or Pakistan is buying?.....


Neither.. 
Pakistan will have to buy these on soft loans from China.

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## ziaulislam

FC-20 is a fluid concept it hasnt been finalized so its useless to compare it to any aircrft now..we never know how would it stands in 2015..by that time it may be as good as the eurofighter in most aspects.. nevertheless its still comparable to rafale and typhoon even today, may be not equal but definitively comparable 

by the way its unlikly that we get it before 2015 for variety of reasons..i think PAF would like to wait and see the MRCA first besides the funds issues


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## PakShaheen79

As it is evident that project is not completed yet and more changes will be made (regardless of what model FC-20 is of J-10). So, i would like to suggest here that everyone must stop comparing this thing with any other fighter until it gets roll out from CAC's assembly lines. 

Thank you all.


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## IceCold

Why are we getting so over joyed over just a model presented since we cant have the real ones, Chinese thought since the friendship is higher then whatever, lets give them the model.
We don't have the money and China has a certain limit to which it will credit, even with the next government in place, it will take considerable time for our economy to recover from the damage the bastards have done to it. Dollar has gone to 94 can you fcking believe it????
2014.......highly unrealistic timeline for J-10s in my unprofessional opinion.

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## Secur

Abingdonboy said:


> I don't care whether China made it, that isn't the point.



Well , almost all the time that is the one and only reason for a defense equipment not being " up to par " just because it was made in China ... Time to change mentality ...


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## SBD-3

Abingdonboy said:


> Exactly, I wasn't tying to say it was a 2nd gen fighter but to compare it to the Eurocanards, as some members WERE doing, was utterly laughable and false.


an aircraft close to Eurofighter would be a second generation aircraft.....Nice research kid....



Oscar said:


> Look at its this way..
> Can the J-10B's under-testing radar match the range of the rafale's RBE-2 radar ..yes
> Can the J-10B's AESA system incorporate all the modes available to the RBE-2 along with the SAR picture refinement? NO
> Can the J-10B's EW suite detect ESA systems and warn the pilot before hand? YES.
> Can the J-10B's EW suite(based on what we know with the JF-17 and its integrated and external ECM suite) provide protection by offering both noise and deceptive jamming along with an intermediate DRFM? YES
> Is the J-10B's sensor fusion as efficient as the Rafale (offering omnirole engagement capability)? NO...the J-10B cannot attack both ground and air targets simultaneously...it has to change radar modes.
> Can the J-10B's Man-machine interface match that of the rafale... YES
> Does the J-10B have a HOBS missile and a HMS system? YES
> 
> However, these are the specifications of the aircraft seen being tested at Chengdu.. NOT the FC-20..
> because the FC-20 is still a fluid concept which has yet to be finalised by the PAF on what has to be fitted..and what not.
> It is without a doubt, that the FC-20 will incorporate MORE than this machine that sits at Chengdu.
> Hence.. I see no reason not to compare the J-10B or the Eurocanards..
> It may not be able to match them in all spheres of combat aircraft performance.. but it certainly holds the ability to match them in air combat.
> 
> 
> 
> Links exist throughout the forum, this meeting may or may not have brought up the subject..
> since it may not have made it into the report..
> After all.. most people will not report if the PAF Chief asked the Chinese guest if he would like some tea.
> 
> HOWEVER..the current status of the FC-20 for the PAF is still a LoI(letter of intent) for the purchase..and no Order has been placed YET.


And you're explaining this to who.......like they say argue with someone who has the same information level as you....else it would be a waste of time.

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## Super Falcon

i dont see they are coming


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## SBD-3

lightoftruth said:


> atleast open the links before posting where does they mention Pakistan buying j10 its all media speculation. any links from mod?


Very nice argument.....duh!


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## sancho

Donatello said:


> Tell me, what is so Special about Rafale?
> 
> Please tell. And by tell me, not the paper specs but real scenarios....combat roles???



There is a lot of things that makes it special, but to make it clearer, a single Rafale can enter enemy airspace, low with it's terrain avoiding capabilities and in passive mode, which makes it very hard to detect for any enemy fighters. It can detect the JF 17 B1 or F16B52 radars or their EM signatures at long range thanks to SPECTRA and puts itself in a position to not be detected itself and close in. In a range between 60 an 80Km it can launch up to 4 x MICA missiles (preferable the IR which are passive and will be hard to detect) to air targets and 6 x AASM to 6 x different ground targets (with a precision of 1m), turns around and gets back with supercruise speed. *All this simultaneously within seconds an without using the radar! ! !*

To do the a similar scenario with J10, AAMs and LS-6 for example, PAF would need:

- 2 x J10s with 2 x fuel tanks, 2 x WVR and 2 x BVR missiles (to take on 4 x air targets) 
- 2 x J10s with 2 x fuel tanks, 2 x WVR and 3 x LS 6 PGMs (to take on 6 x ground targets, with dedicated attack runs)

More fighters = increased radar detectability
Active missile cueing = increased ESM detectability
Big engine and no SC = increased IR detectability
No propulsion for LS 6 = dedicated attack runs to strike targets = longer time in enemy airspace = increased vulnerability
Limited self defence capability for strike fighters (WVR missiles only) = escorts needed

That alone should make clear that there is a performance difference between Rafale and a J10, simply by design, avionics or weapon capabilities and before you ask, yes most of these capabilities were even proven with the current versions of Rafale during Afghanistan, Libya wars or exercises like Redflag or ATLC in the UAE. 

So Rafale indeed is a very good and especially very balanced fighter, but I don't agree with Abingdonboy general statement that the Eurocanards are not comparable and simply superior. The EF for example has very limited A2G capabilities so far, which makes it inferior to J10 in this field. You simply can't generalise it and has to compare the different fighters and their individual capabilities and roles with eachother, but since neither J10B, nor EF T3B are developed yet, it's mainly speculation anyway.




Oscar said:


> Look at its this way..
> Can the J-10B's under-testing radar match the range of the rafale's RBE-2 radar ..yes



Any source for this? Afaik there are still rumors about a PESA radar and not an AESA, so where did you get ranges from?

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## Akasa

Abingdonboy said:


> The J10B may be a good a/c but it in no way is comparable to EFT or Rafale. It just isn't possible at this stage for the Chinese industries to have the same sort of design and production capabitles as established companies especially one like Dassualt that is making the most advanced tech in thei world. The J10 may be able to compete in some flight aspects like sustained turn and the like but in avionics (where modern combat is one and lost these days) there is just no comparison between the J-10 and the Euro-canards apart from some cosmetic similarities which have, no doubt, been ripped off.
> 
> + certainly not the versions that competed in MMRCA ie the EFT T3 and Rafale F3 with AESA, super cruise, HMDS etc


 
Buddy, China has been deploying AESA radar on airborne, shipborne, and ground based platforms while Europe was still marketing its first AESA radars, that, may I mention, never made it on any of their airborne systems. China's companies built multiple different AESA radars already of all sizes, and in fact they are of such abundance that all 4.5 generation fighters like the J-10B, J-11B, and J-15 uses a competition process to select the radar.

And again, it seems that you have missed out that the J-10B incorporates a serious amount of upgraded and solid state integrated electronics, radar absorbent material, composites, new generation cockpit. All of the fancy catchings are like the ones seen on the latest Rafale variants and Eurofighter Typhoon variants, and to a greater extent. For example, the AESA radar mounted on the J-10B features 1200 individual T/R modules according to its company, and so far the highest figure I saw for the Rafale's RBE-2 radar is 880.

Chinese companies, may I remind you, already built a fifth generation jet fighter. Europe is still importing one.

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## sancho

SinoSoldier said:


> Chinese companies, may I remind you, already built a fifth generation jet fighter. Europe is still importing one.



China is developing a 5th gen fighter because it has the money and needs it to defend itself against the US and their allies. Europeans has stealth developments for years, but the cold war is over and even the Eurocanards have lost their initial opponents (one reason why the EF won't be upgraded to full potential anymore).
Same goes for the AESA points, Europe has AESA radars even for fighters available, while China is still trying to develop comparable puls doppler radars for their fighters...
You are confusing Chinas good pace of developments, with the edge Europe has in terms of experience and knowledge. With the same ammount of money and the need to develop such fighters, they would be on par with the US, while China is still trying to catch up to Russia in terms of design, engines or even radars. China is the future, but these countries are the present!

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## Donatello

sancho said:


> There is a lot of things that makes it special, but to make it clearer, a single Rafale can enter enemy airspace, low with it's terrain avoiding capabilities and in passive mode, which makes it very hard to detect for any enemy fighters. It can detect the JF 17 B1 or F16B52 radars or their EM signatures at long range thanks to SPECTRA and puts itself in a position to not be detected itself and close in. In a range between 60 an 80Km it can launch up to 4 x MICA missiles (preferable the IR which are passive and will be hard to detect) to air targets and 6 x AASM to 6 x different ground targets (with a precision of 1m), turns around and gets back with supercruise speed. *All this simultaneously within seconds an without using the radar! ! !*
> 
> To do the a similar scenario with J10, AAMs and LS-6 for example, PAF would need:
> 
> - 2 x J10s with 2 x fuel tanks, 2 x WVR and 2 x BVR missiles (to take on 4 x air targets)
> - 2 x J10s with 2 x fuel tanks, 2 x WVR and 3 x LS 6 PGMs (to take on 6 x ground targets, with dedicated attack runs)
> 
> More fighters = increased radar detectability
> Active missile cueing = increased ESM detectability
> Big engine and no SC = increased IR detectability
> No propulsion for LS 6 = dedicated attack runs to strike targets = longer time in enemy airspace = increased vulnerability
> Limited self defence capability for strike fighters (WVR missiles only) = escorts needed
> 
> That alone should make clear that there is a performance difference between Rafale and a J10, simply by design, avionics or weapon capabilities and before you ask, yes most of these capabilities were even proven with the current versions of Rafale during Afghanistan, Libya wars or exercises like Redflag or ATLC in the UAE.
> 
> So Rafale indeed is a very good and especially very balanced fighter, but I don't agree with Abingdonboy general statement that the Eurocanards are not comparable and simply superior. The EF for example has very limited A2G capabilities so far, which makes it inferior to J10 in this field. You simply can't generalise it and has to compare the different fighters and their individual capabilities and roles with eachother, but since neither J10B, nor EF T3B are developed yet, it's mainly speculation anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Any source for this? Afaik there are still rumors about a PESA radar and not an AESA, so where did you get ranges from?



I think i am literate enough to understand a brochure by Dassault.

Your examples of Afghanistan and Libya fail to prove your point......as...... please tell me how many J-10 Class fighters did Rafale end up shooting? (You obviously won't like the answer)


The truth is, Rafale is non-air to air combat proven. Afghanistan doesn't count, as even a Mushak can fly in and drop bombs on the rag tags.

J-10 is also unproven.


I admire Rafale and it's technology, i follow it very closely by reading up relevent material, including but not limited to Jane's (Subscribed by my School's library), but i would avoid comments like J-10 is inferior because it may not have capabale IRST/FLIRs.....well, the truth is, we don't know the exact specs......because for one....Dassault had been hard at marketing their plane revealing more about it's capabilities, while Chengdu has been relatively quiet.........going from J-10A, to J-10B and more development, obviously rectifying any short comings.....not to mention the experience gained in parallel by running a 5th gen J-20 program. 

Don't get me wrong, Rafale is extremely good for any role, but undermining J-10 based on paper specs would be wrong.


...and ya......IRST/FLIRs definitely are useful, but their shortcomings with respect to background clutter need to be addressed, and with advances in semiconductors, we might very well see this getting solved.

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## Icewolf

Pakistan gave 1 F-16 to China to make J-10... Of course we will get it


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## Manticore

Abingdonboy said:


> The J10B may be a good a/c but it in no way is comparable to EFT or Rafale. It just isn't possible at this stage for the Chinese industries to have the same sort of design and production capabitles as established companies especially one like Dassualt that is making the most advanced tech in thei world. The J10 may be able to compete in some flight aspects like sustained turn and the like but in avionics (where modern combat is one and lost these days) there is just no comparison between the J-10 and the Euro-canards apart from some cosmetic similarities which have, no doubt, been ripped off.




I am a layman ... i accept my deficiency ... this attitude allows me to learn more concepts ... even if i am wrong i will gladly accept it and ponder why some designers favoured one design over the other .
So sir , please educate me as to how you came to these definate conclusions , surely you would have a very solid background in this field.







Why On the Typhoon and X-31, the tips of the canard are canted downwards?


Why On the Lavi, J-10, Kfir, Gripen and Rafale, the canard is positioned just ahead of, and above the wing?

How do close-coupled canards ,Lavi ,improve aircraft lift-to-drag ?

Whats the advantage of long-coupled canards?

Whats the postion of j-10s canards?

Out of the delta canards , which 2 might have the least drag canard delta wing configuration ?

Whats do you know regarding the j-10's avionics, radars and countermeasures?

What is the final version that would be inducted by paf? What would its specs be?

How many trenches did the eurofighter go through ? What are still its deficiencies?

How many batches of rafale did it take to achieve a balanced capabaliy?

































IAI Lavi, General Dynamics F-16A Fighting Falcon, Saab JAS-39 Gripen, CAC J-10

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## Akasa

sancho said:


> China is developing a 5th gen fighter because it has the money and needs it to defend itself against the US and their allies. Europeans has stealth developments for years, but the cold war is over and even the Eurocanards have lost their initial opponents (one reason why the EF won't be upgraded to full potential anymore).
> Same goes for the AESA points, Europe has AESA radars even for fighters available, while China is still trying to develop comparable puls doppler radars for their fighters...
> You are confusing Chinas good pace of developments, with the edge Europe has in terms of experience and knowledge. With the same ammount of money and the need to develop such fighters, they would be on par with the US, while China is still trying to catch up to Russia in terms of design, engines or even radars. China is the future, but these countries are the present!



You haven't stayed updated of Chinese avionics developments, have you? When China was flying its KJ-2000 and putting the TYpe 348 on its 052C, Europe was still looking for somebody to buy their AESA radars. Nobody did. Right now, with AESA radars being fitted on five different fighters in China, four different electronics planes, Europe is seriously lagging behind. Experience counts, but again, China has been building guns for hundreds of years and yet they are not at the top of the world when it comes to this.

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## Thorough Pro

And I see a Psycho full of foul air.



IndianArmy said:


> I see... A physiological effect!!

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## Pakistanisage

Su-11 said:


> JF-17 is clearly superior to this J-10. Pakistan is too smart to fall for this trap set by the Chinese. When JF-17 is superior to F-16 as per some Pakistani pilots claims, and if J-10 is equal to F-16 as per Chinese claims, it logically means JF-17 is superior to J-10.





You are nothing but a TROLL.

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## alimobin memon

Pakistanisage said:


> You are nothing but a TROLL.


Jf17 is an excellent fighter for PAF, If PAF does not buy J10 it means , Paf has what it wants , if J10B is integrated than it is superior to jf17 well ofcourse J10 is compared to typhoons so it should be.


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## Beast

Rafale?? The Mica missile they used is total crap compare to real BVRAAM like AIM-120 and PL-12.

But I am wondering when will Meteor be deployed?


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## fatman17

Icewolf said:


> Pakistan gave 1 F-16 to China to make J-10... Of course we will get it



oh really! can u prove that?

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## alimobin memon

Icewolf said:


> Pakistan gave 1 F-16 to China to make J-10... Of course we will get it



OK j10 is copy of f16 whole and lavi too oh and some tech from Russia , i just don't understand china made j20 by looking at Lavi and f16 that can wipe out any fighter


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## IndianArmy

Thorough Pro said:


> And I see a Psycho full of foul air.



Ah so finally you see it too.... Go read what was the debate about rather being paranoid...


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## lightoftruth

hasnain0099 said:


> And you're explaining this to who.......like they say argue with someone who has the same information level as you....else it would be a waste of time.


 this is wat u come up with huh, 
exactly the level of information u have is confined to media reports or a letter of intent,
even German 214 was a better phuss than this.


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## Icewolf

@fatman17

Here read article it says Pakistan gave F-16 to China 

Chinese Air Force Gets New Jet


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## nomi007

Icewolf said:


> Pakistan gave 1 F-16 to China to make J-10... Of course we will get it


o really Mr james bond
we give access Chinese to f-16s what you can do
now happy if not than cry



Icewolf said:


> @fatman17
> 
> Here read article it says Pakistan gave F-16 to China
> 
> Chinese Air Force Gets New Jet


this is just propaganda yr

what is significant difference b\w pl-12 and sd-10 i think just naming difference
f-22p base upon type-053 frigate we just take some benefits from type-054a frigate
HOPE PAF WILL GET J-10B NOR J-10A


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## ziaulislam

Abingdonboy said:


> Talk about amateur. I am looking at the situation purely objectively. No independent expert would put to Rafale in the same league as the J-10. I don't care whether China made it, that isn't the point. Look back at Oscar's post- he knows his stuff and he agrees the J-10 isn't as good as the Rafale. Regarding combat scernios- be creative, what scernio do you see a 1:1 fight favouring the J-10?


problem is the defination of independent expert?
to you and europeans independent expert means europeans...
to USA and russia it means americans and russians..

if you think on the same line most chinese experts put the J-10b better than rafale or atleast comparable
and if you think on European lines, they even put the eurofighter better than F-35 on simulations?


fact are facts..china is develping fifth gen aircrfts so in the avionics field soon or later J-10 will surpass european fighters while with no sales ahead all European tec will come to stand still just like the russain tec did


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## Su-11

> Again you're sticking to the same thing (Like the last time about StrategyPage). Each platform has its limitations and advantages. It's the combination that synergises the overall affectiveness. Just consider a JFT doing CAS and J-10 Flying CAP over it. Both in their relative strenghts, maximum efficiency achieved.


JF-17 can kick J-10's arse according to PAF pilots and many people here & PAF would not buy J-10s.
Stratrgy Page? Oh you mean J-10 being a piece of maintenance intensive junk, see even strategy page acknowledges that.


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## alimobin memon

FYI There is no J10 A production anymore , will be j10b now and for those that j10 is copy of f16 or what then let me remind you that What we see i mean the progress in missile and jets was all copy of germany (nazi) so we cant just say all modern fighter technology was copy of germany.


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## abdulbarijan

Su-11 said:


> JF-17 can kick J-10's arse *according to PAF pilots *and many people here & PAF would not buy J-10s.
> Stratrgy Page? Oh you mean J-10 being a piece of maintenance intensive junk, see even strategy page acknowledges that.


*
And please kindly state which PAF pilot are u referring to?? *

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## Su-11

You are cutting in the middle of a logic train. Read from first.


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## SQ8

sancho said:


> Any source for this? Afaik there are still rumors about a PESA radar and not an AESA, so where did you get ranges from?



I would suggest you discard it, since I have it from the horse's mouth..and nothing more can be said.
However, the Chinese AESA is shaping up in high gear.. partly due to the emergence of the J-20 and another J-XX program.

As far as the range is concerned .. its stated in the same manner the SD-10's range is stated by such "horses"..
For the SD-10 they say.."Better than the AIM-120B"..
For the AESA in development they say.."Close to the Eurofighter"

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## Shivani Malhotra

Zarvan said:


> Sir at least do some research Sir J-10 B was started by China on pressure from Pakistan because Pakistan wanted a better version from J-10 A so they went for J-10 B the only problem we are facing is our bad economy and nothing else if our economy would have been better than which we have we would have got them long before



be very true, have you ever gone for J10 or any other chinese ac if your economy was in good shape ?


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## SQ8

Shivani Malhotra said:


> be very true, have you ever gone for J10 or any other chinese ac if your economy was in good shape ?



The PAF actually loved the rafale.. but the french were asking too much for it.


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## siegecrossbow

Can't see the intakes clearly. I think J-10B will be the export version since it uses indigenous engines and will be equipped with PEA or AESA so it would be a better match for emerging 4.5 gen. fighters.

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## Akasa

siegecrossbow said:


> Can't see the intakes clearly. I think J-10B will be the export version since it uses indigenous engines and will be equipped with PEA or AESA so it would be a better match for emerging 4.5 gen. fighters.



It is confirmed. The radar is AESA. According to the manufacturer of an AESA, the radar matches exactly of what we saw in the J-10B. Besides, more than one insider confirmed that the AESA won over the PESA. The J-20 will use a more powerful variant of the AESA on the J-10B while the JF-17 BLock II will use a weaker variant. What interests me is that the AESA aboard the J-15 and J-11B are not based on the J-10B AESA and is instead a whole new line of radars.

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## Ammyy

^^^ world yet to see any operational Chinese AESA in any fighter aircraft


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## Wet Shirt Contest

SinoSoldier said:


> It is confirmed. The radar is AESA. According to the manufacturer of an AESA, the radar matches exactly of what we saw in the J-10B. Besides, more than one insider confirmed that the AESA won over the PESA. The J-20 will use a more powerful variant of the AESA on the J-10B while the *JF-17 BLock II will use a weaker variant*. What interests me is that the AESA aboard the J-15 and J-11B are not based on the J-10B AESA and is instead a whole new line of radars.




Mate You Saying JF17 Blk II will use a AESA ? Can you back your post by some credible link ?
just saying In advance" now don't come up with Chinese AWACS development. FYI developing a AESA for AWACS and For a fighter are two different things. 

On J10B i think it'll mount a PESA for now.

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## SQ8

Wet Shirt Contest said:


> *Mate You Saying JF17 Blk II will use a AESA ?* Can you back your post by some credible link ?
> just saying In advance" now don't come up with Chinese AWACS development. FYI developing a AESA for AWACS and For a fighter are two different things.
> 
> On J10B i think it'll mount a PESA for now.



No plans yet for AESA in JF-17 Batch-II.



Wet Shirt Contest said:


> *Mate You Saying JF17 Blk II will use a AESA ?* Can you back your post by some credible link ?
> just saying In advance" now don't come up with Chinese AWACS development. FYI developing a AESA for AWACS and For a fighter are two different things.
> 
> On J10B i think it'll mount a PESA for now.



No plans yet for AESA in JF-17 Batch-II.

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## Storm Force

Nearly all major Radar developers globally came with PESA RADAR technology before AESA tech.

ie Russia went from ZHUK MSA radar to Bars PESA and are now close to revealing their AESA effort 10 YEARS AFTER the PESA radar came in SU30MKI

likewise France had had a PESA radar on Rafale F1 since induction started in 2006... Rafale f3 will come with new RBE2 Aesa Radar on RAFALE F3 in 2013...... ... 7 yearsa later..........

ON this basis CHINA has yet revealed KLJ7 on FC1 & KLJ10 a bigger radar on J10 both mechanical scanning radars.

I suspect they are close to revealing a PESA radar on FC20 in next 12 months or so BUT cant see chinease Aesa radar for 5 years yet.

THIS IS BASED ON ABOVE examples

PS Typhoons of EADS will get captor AESA in 2016 only nearly decade after CAPTOR PESA was installed in tranche 1 typhoons flown by RAF germany & saudi

TO DATE only USA field AESA radars on their fighters but both france & ISRAEL are closing with theirs


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## BATMAN

debashish_j20 said:


> but the question is, can pak afford j-10?????......http://*************.net/flag-smiley-7331.gif



non of your freaking business.

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## AUz

debashish_j20 said:


> but the question is, can pak afford j-10?????......http://*************.net/flag-smiley-7331.gif



Another dumbass brainwashed bharti...

You came on the right forum bro...Many ignorant bhartis have been educated and "de-brainwashed" before on this forum. You will also be educated. 

Welcome!

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## TaimiKhan

Storm Force said:


> Nearly all major Radar developers globally came with PESA RADAR technology before AESA tech.
> 
> ie Russia went from ZHUK MSA radar to Bars PESA and are now close to revealing their AESA effort 10 YEARS AFTER the PESA radar came in SU30MKI
> 
> likewise France had had a PESA radar on Rafale F1 since induction started in 2006... Rafale f3 will come with new RBE2 Aesa Radar on RAFALE F3 in 2013...... ... 7 yearsa later..........
> 
> ON this basis CHINA has yet revealed KLJ7 on FC1 & KLJ10 a bigger radar on J10 both mechanical scanning radars.
> 
> I suspect they are close to revealing a PESA radar on FC20 in next 12 months or so BUT cant see chinease Aesa radar for 5 years yet.
> 
> THIS IS BASED ON ABOVE examples
> 
> PS Typhoons of EADS will get captor AESA in 2016 only nearly decade after CAPTOR PESA was installed in tranche 1 typhoons flown by RAF germany & saudi
> 
> TO DATE only USA field AESA radars on their fighters but both france & ISRAEL are closing with theirs



SF, why don't you first go to Google ans do googling about what you are going to write first. 

Do you have any idea how many platforms of Chinese armed forces are using AESA based radars. I can safely assume they are using most AESA radars then any country currently. They are using it on their ships and all the newer ships are coming with AESA radars, they have AWACS flying with AESA radars, they have exported AESA based platform to PAF, their air defence systems are using AESA based radars. 

And i can assure you, very soon they will be coming up with fighter sized AESA radars instead of getting PESA in large numbers. China has lot of experience now with AESA and soon would be producing in numbers. Which they are already but for larger systems.

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## fatman17

AESA tech. is getting very commom. soon most med.tech AF's will have it. it will also get cheaper.


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## India defense

Funny...I did not see any official source..that Pakistan will get J10.....is it day dreaming?


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## Rahil khan

India defense said:


> Funny...I did not see any official source..that Pakistan will get J10.....is it day dreaming?


 
Well keep searching for that "official source" until the J-10b arrives.


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## Icarus

India defense said:


> Funny...I did not see any official source..that Pakistan will get J10.....is it day dreaming?



There are 36 on order, chalked for delivery in 2014-16.

Chinas J-10B fighter to Pak worries India - India - DNA

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/123723-pakistan-became-j-10bs-first-overseas-buyers-half-price-f-16-a.html

Chengdu J-10 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

BTW Photoshop users, do you reckon this picture is a fake? It should have been big news if the J-10 had flown in Pakistani colours.

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## Windjammer

Icarus said:


> Chengdu J-10 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> BTW Photoshop users, do you reckon this picture is a fake? It should have been big news if the J-10 had flown in Pakistani colours.



Definitely and somewhat poorly photo-shopped, firstly look at the intake, it's not J-10B designated for Pakistan, unlike in the picture, all PAF aircraft now display full version of the flag and the emblem on the tail is that of No.9 (Griffins) Squadron, currently an F-16 unit.

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## sohaib91

So will PAF have j10 this year........???
i'm waitng waitng and waiting . . .!!!!
,
Are there another blocks too for j10 as jf17 block-2........????


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## Icarus

Windjammer said:


> Definitely and somewhat poorly photo-shopped, firstly look at the intake, it's not J-10B designated for Pakistan, unlike in the picture, all PAF aircraft now display full version of the flag and the emblem on the tail is that of No.9 (Griffins) Squadron, currently an F-16 unit.




Thank you for the detailed explanation Windy!


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## sancho

Donatello said:


> I think i am literate enough to understand a brochure by Dassault.



I am not talking about Dassault Brochures, but official reports from French pilots that has shown this capability during ATLC exercise in the UAE or Redflag in the US.



Donatello said:


> Your examples of Afghanistan and Libya fail to prove your point.



Wrong, because in Afghanistan and especially in the Libyan war, we could see the capabilities of Rafale and SPECTRA practically, be it the SEAD attacks guided by SPECTRA, be it the simultaneous attacks on different ground targets at a single attack run, be it the SC or low detectability features and so on. It's actually a lame and desperate try to have any argument if one claims Rafale is unproven because of the lack of A2A combats in wars, especially compared to J10 that wasn't put in any conflict situation at all, be it A2A or A2G. Even the exercise experiences against other fighters are very limited (against PLAAFs Flankers only), so we know waaaay more on how capable Rafale is in A2A, just by comparing which fighter it tested against and what the results were (constantly beating the US teen series, beat EF in dogfights and BVR combats, proved it maneuverability in dogfights against F22 with at least 4 draws...). 




Donatello said:


> but i would avoid comments like J-10 is inferior because it may not have capabale IRST/FLIRs.....well, the truth is, we don't know the exact specs



But we have specs and capabilities of J10A and compare it to the current Rafale F3 with the advantages I showed. We know that J10A is inferior in RCS, TWR, wingloading, payload, hardpoint layout, range and fuel capacity, or EWS and the PESA radar is at least a more advanced technology than the puls doppler KJ10 which you can't deny right? We also know that the MICA offers certain advantages over J10s missiles, be it the maneuverability with TVC, BVR capability for both versions, INS and data link guidance, or the off bore sight.

So all in all, there are not 1, but many advantages a Rafale F3 offers over J10A, which are pretty obvious, one just need to look at the facts!



SinoSoldier said:


> You haven't stayed updated of Chinese avionics developments, have you?



I did, but you obviously wasn't about Europe RBE 2 AESA, Vixen AESA, CESAR AESA, several civil AESA radars, AESA modules for EWS systems and increased jamming modes... all these techs are available for years too. But you have to understand that Europe is not 1 nation, but a continent and that Europe has not a combined defence budget but many smaller for each countries. That's why the techs that are availabe, don't enter serial production there. It's simply naiv to say they are not developing a 5th gen fighter so China is ahead, because you have to look at the industrial know how and experience only and with an unbiased view the result is very clear!




SinoSoldier said:


> *Right now*, with AESA radars being fitted on five different fighters in China, four different electronics planes, Europe is seriously lagging behind.



 Which shows how mistaken you are, because the first AESAs were fitted in Rafale and EF in the early 2000s, so what does it tell you about Europes industrial development capability in this field and how far ahead they are?


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## BATMAN

If Pakistan is getting FC-20, than it hints the maturity of WS-10 and confidence of PAF on it.
In this case, it is also compliment hopes in WS-13.

Apparently, the delay is because, PAF doesn't want to have two platforms with comparable capability.
Ironic but true... FC-20 have to stand out sharply vs. JFT, otherwise deal will continue to linger, or until, PAF sees the need of immediate consolidation of its fleet.
Considering, JFT development is going along smoothly, exl. WS-13 (quite strange for me) FC-20 have a tough fight ahead.

IMPO, When i compare both fighters on capabilities vs. price. I see no justification for FC-20.


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## India defense

now I understood ...where the 10% increase in defence budget is going....


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## RazPaK

Offtopic:
I wish Pakistan will get the J-20!!!


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## baqai

India defense said:


> Funny...I did not see any official source..that Pakistan will get J10.....is it day dreaming?



day dreaming? comparing things to induction of LCA are you? 

last i remember Indians used to make a huge fuss on JF-17 it became reality, when the time comes this will also become reality Insha Allah, i personally think you should be more concerned about LCA rather than criticizing us one our modernization program no matter how lame it may sound to you

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## lightoftruth

baqai said:


> day dreaming? comparing things to induction of LCA are you?
> 
> last i remember Indians used to make a *huge fuss *on JF-17 it became reality, when the time comes this will also become reality Insha Allah, i personally think you should be more concerned about LCA rather than criticizing us one our modernization program no matter how lame it may sound to you


 HUGE PHUSS is very common these days specially with fanboys examples
1.PN intrested in j11.
2.pN getting qing class Chinese submarines.
3.Pakistan has many icbms but not showing it.
4.Pakistan is purchasing j10b.
5.pN is purchasing German 214.
thanks for your concerns over LCA.

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## HANI

lightoftruth said:


> HUGE PHUSS is very common these days specially with fanboys examples
> 1.PN intrested in j11.
> 2.pN getting qing class Chinese submarines.
> 3.Pakistan has many icbms but not showing it.
> 4.Pakistan is purchasing j10b.
> 5.pN is purchasing German 214.
> thanks for your concerns over LCA.









can someone plz call fire brigade for our Indian friend plzzzzzz

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## lightoftruth

HANI said:


> can someone plz call fire brigade for our Indian friend plzzzzzz


 any answer sir anything u got other than delutions?


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## HANI

lightoftruth said:


> any answer sir anything u got other than delutions?



every thing take time sir.... Pakistan being a nuclear power is also a delusion for many years..... jf-17 is also a delusion........ sub manufacturing , cruse missiles, f22 frigates , al khalid u can name them but they all came to really but took time........ 
i know we are short of cash we having a struggling economy can,t afford much at this time but u never know what we can came up with .....................
now regarding points u have mention
1. PN never show any intrust in J 11 not any reliable source tells us until now
2. talks on Chines subs were on but will take time 
3. we opted for Chines subs in large num and may be with 2nd strike capability so 214 was not considered and cash is another imp factor 
4. And about j 10B when did chines said that they are giving us or we said that we are not getting them????? ur MRCA took how many year to just select? induction will still took many years so sir came up with some thing good rather just point towards same things that have been discused over and over again


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## Desert Fox

lightoftruth said:


> HUGE PHUSS is very common these days specially with fanboys examples
> *1.PN intrested in j11.
> 2.pN getting qing class Chinese submarines.
> 3.Pakistan has many icbms but not showing it.
> 4.Pakistan is purchasing j10b.
> 5.pN is purchasing German 214.*
> thanks for your concerns over LCA.[/B]



I agree, there has been too much noise over these baseless and unofficial claims, pages after pages of discussions, and in the end we find out its NOT CONFIRMED or ITS NOT HAPPENING.

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## alimobin memon

This forum is getting bekaar day by day . can't u guys discuss in a way , especially indian trolls!!

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## lightoftruth

Desert Fox said:


> I agree, there has been too much noise over these baseless and unofficial claims, pages after pages of discussions, and in the end we find out its NOT CONFIRMED or ITS NOT HAPPENING.


 
thanks ,I have no problems with Pakistan acquiring some defence equipment but we are discussing something which has no official confirmations as u said.


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## Edevelop

Why do we have to discuss these things over and over again. 99.9% of the stuff is written on Wikipedia. Let J-10 land in Pakistan then we'll talk.


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## Akasa

Wet Shirt Contest said:


> Mate You Saying JF17 Blk II will use a AESA ? Can you back your post by some credible link ?
> just saying In advance" now don't come up with Chinese AWACS development. FYI developing a AESA for AWACS and For a fighter are two different things.
> 
> On J10B i think it'll mount a PESA for now.



My posts regarding the JF-17 comes from Eagle Hannan, a credible engineer who works in Nanjing.

Grande Strategy

Chinese Avionics Advances Ripple Throughout Asia | Defense News | defensenews.com

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## Akasa

sancho said:


> I did, but you obviously wasn't about Europe RBE 2 AESA, Vixen AESA, CESAR AESA, several civil AESA radars, AESA modules for EWS systems and increased jamming modes... all these techs are available for years too. But you have to understand that Europe is not 1 nation, but a continent and that Europe has not a combined defence budget but many smaller for each countries. That's why the techs that are availabe, don't enter serial production there. It's simply naiv to say they are not developing a 5th gen fighter so China is ahead, because you have to look at the industrial know how and experience only and with an unbiased view the result is very clear!



Europe is not known to possess the wind tunnels, technologies, integral components such as very powerful engines, or the industrial capability to build fifth generation fighters. Whether they are able to do so if they did remains a separate story.



sancho said:


> Which shows how mistaken you are, because the first AESAs were fitted in Rafale and EF in the early 2000s, so what does it tell you about Europes industrial development capability in this field and how far ahead they are?



Wrong. The first RBE2 AESA just rolled off the line for the Rafale.

Active Array Radar For Rafale Fighter Aircraft Delivered By Thales | Ottawa Citizen

Eurofighter will receive AESA by 2015

Eurofighter and Euroradar confirm that the Typhoon will get its AESA radar by 2015

For comparison, China's first airborne AESA entered service in 2004.

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## MightyDragon

Rafale, Eurofighter may still more advanced then J-10, but in view of the terrible economic situation in Europe, the further improvement of Rafale and Eurofighter will likely fall behind J-10. Thanks to the project of J-20, China aero industry will soon surpass Europe and catch up with USA...

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## The Great One

MightyDragon said:


> Rafale, Eurofighter may still more advanced then J-10, but in view of the terrible economic situation in Europe, the further improvement of Rafale and Eurofighter will likely fall behind J-10. Thanks to the project of J-20, China aero industry will soon surpass Europe and catch up with USA...


How so? Please explain with sources and links


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## Zarvan

MightyDragon said:


> Rafale, Eurofighter may still more advanced then J-10, but in view of the terrible economic situation in Europe, the further improvement of Rafale and Eurofighter will likely fall behind J-10. Thanks to the project of J-20, China aero industry will soon surpass Europe and catch up with USA...


Sir J-10 B is equal ant to Rafale and close to Euorofighter and Pakistan is planning to get more than 100 J-10 B because Pakistan needs to have at least 3 different platforms in its Air Force


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## humanfirst

Zarvan said:


> Sir J-10 B is equal ant to Rafale and close to Euorofighter and Pakistan is planning to get more than 100 J-10 B because Pakistan needs to have at least 3 different platforms in its Air Force


But the order was for 36 J10B aircrafts..Even that order is not confirmed.


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## The Great One

humanfirst said:


> But the order was for 36 J10B aircrafts..Even that order is not confirmed.


Ah...........
Who gives a c rap. Let them live in their alternate universe where J-10B is superior to Rafa and close to EF.


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## Zarvan

humanfirst said:


> But the order was for 36 J10B aircrafts..Even that order is not confirmed.


Sir that order is for the first batch Pakistan Plans to have more than 100 J-10 B and for your information J-10 B was developed for Pakistan Pakistan was not very happy with the J 10 A so they asked China to develop a better model of J-10 and they developed the J-10 B



The Great One said:


> Ah...........
> Who gives a c rap. Let them live in their alternate universe where J-10B is superior to Rafa and close to EF.


Sir you should stop living in paradise China and Pakistan both watch at your Armed Forces and what planes you are getting and than they also develop better stuff or at least of same level they are not fools to let you have all the fun


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## MiG-21

J-10B is, a poor man's Rafale

JF-17 is, a poor man's F-16


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## Awesome

IndianArmy said:


> Sorry If I may just cut across to make space for my argument. What other options did PAF have for the Indian MMRCA??



It's more to do with the options that are to make it to FC-20 (Pakistani J-10 variant). The options would be geared towards the threat perceptions of PAF.


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## killerx

the model the is presented by china in the pic is of J10 twin seat model take a close look WTF ?


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## Beast

J-10A twin seat aka J-10BS. This will be the version deliver to PAF. But radar might be AESA. Engine will run by WS-10A.


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## killerx

cb4 said:


> Sorry ruin the flow but gotta love this pic!



what about his one its J10B right the model is different its J10A zoom it

need more pics of the model hand over in hq to comfirm what PAF is buying under the name of FC20


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## SBD-3

killerx said:


> the model the is presented by china in the pic is of J10 twin seat model take a close look WTF ?


I told you guys before that the model presentation means nothing. I dont why people dont understand the difference. Deals are not made in such a way. If PAF Chief hands over an F-16 Model to SLAF Air Chief would that mean Pakistan be selling its F-16s?
These are just exchanges. Procurement dicisions don't happen this way.



Beast said:


> J-10A twin seat aka J-10BS. This will be the version deliver to PAF. But radar might be AESA. Engine will run by WS-10A.


Like you sold the L-15 as multirole fighter.....duh!....

Interesting, at least 12 Indian members visiting the thread....

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## DrSomnath999

Zarvan said:


> Sir J-10 B is equal ant to Rafale and close to Euorofighter and Pakistan is planning to get more than 100 J-10 B because Pakistan needs to have at least 3 different platforms in its Air Force



oh yeah !!

kindly say how just both have canards u r telling they are equal !!!



Zarvan said:


> Sir you should stop living in paradise China and Pakistan both watch at your Armed Forces and what planes you are getting and than they also develop better stuff or at least of same level they are not fools to let you have all the fun



well india was also not fool to allow u to have better stuffs like french avionics & mica missiles for ur JF 17.


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## killerx

any time frame of the delivery and no to be deliverd 



DrSomnath999 said:


> oh yeah !!
> 
> kindly say how just both have canards u r telling they are equal !!!
> 
> 
> 
> well india was also not fool to allow u to have better stuffs like french avionics & mica missiles for ur JF 17.



yet it lives flying and block2 to on the way thanks for mate focus on tejas where its 70% parts come from you are really good


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## DrSomnath999

SinoSoldier said:


> My posts regarding the JF-17 comes from Eagle Hannan, a credible engineer who works in Nanjing.
> 
> 
> 
> Chinese Avionics Advances Ripple Throughout Asia | Defense News | defensenews.com



mate i think u should nt have posted this link

if u read the entire article it states somewhere that Chinese expert CHANG i quote


> If that is the case, analyst and Chinese specialist Andrei Chang said the new radar is unlikely to be an AESA type.
> 
> *"The phased-array radar testing on the J-10B is a passive model," he said.*
> 
> Chang said he does not think the Chinese have developed "a useful AESA radar for the JF-17 and J-10B," but they could in the future.



now would u beleive it or not



killerx said:


> yet it lives flying and block2 to on the way thanks for mate focus on tejas where its 70% parts come from you are really good



well dont worry !! this is another secret advantage of MMRCA deal 

we would utilize those technology used to built rafale in building LCA /PAKFA 

CHEERS


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## sancho

SinoSoldier said:


> Europe is not known to possess the wind tunnels, technologies, integral components such as very powerful engines, or the industrial capability to build fifth generation fighters. Whether they are able to do so if they did remains a separate story.



Oh please.





SinoSoldier said:


> Wrong. The first RBE2 AESA just rolled off the line for the Rafale...
> ...For comparison, China's first airborne AESA entered service in 2004.



Not really, China as *you* pointed out is testing *now AESA radars in fighters* with first demo versions, while Rafale and EF did the same years ago, so they have developed this technology way before China was able to do it, that's a fact! They are just putting it in operational service now, which China will also do in some years only, possibly with J10B as the first platform.

As I said, China has more money for developments, that's why you have a higher pace to develop new things. But the Europeans are way ahead in terms of know how and experience and not only in the radar field. 




MightyDragon said:


> Rafale, Eurofighter may still more advanced then J-10, but in view of the terrible economic situation in Europe, the further improvement of Rafale and Eurofighter will likely fall behind J-10.



Therefor J10 needs to catch up to them in technological terms first, but they were developed with more advanced even with the base versions, so that will be difficult, because there are limitations to the upgrade possibilities.



MightyDragon said:


> Thanks to the project of J-20, China aero industry will soon surpass Europe and catch up with USA...



That's true though, sooner or later and if China continues to put that much money in these development they will catch up with Russia and Europe, but the US will stay ahead for sure.


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## killerx

DrSomnath999 said:


> mate i think u should nt have posted this link
> 
> if u read the entire article it states somewhere that Chinese expert CHANG i quote
> 
> 
> now would u beleive it or not
> 
> 
> 
> well dont worry !! this is another secret advantage of MMRCA deal
> 
> we would utilize those technology used to built rafale in building LCA /PAKFA
> 
> CHEERS



finaly you copy cats


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## DrSomnath999

killerx said:


> finaly you copy cats



well it would be legall copying with agreements like joint venture, as we are paying for it not stealling /reverse engineering it like
"?????" u know who i am referring


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## Peaceful Civilian

DrSomnath999 said:


> well dont worry !! this is another secret advantage of MMRCA deal
> 
> we would utilize those technology used to built rafale in building LCA /PAKFA
> 
> CHEERS


You have JV on Su-30Mk and still your LCA is not inducted.
As LCA is light combat fighter, you can't use Sead and spectra technology of Rafale in small Light fighter LCA already said by indian member.
LCA has Mayawi ECM suite and it dosent have the power for something like SPECTRA onboard


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## DrSomnath999

Peaceful Civlian said:


> You have JV on Su-30Mk and still your LCA is not inducted.
> As LCA is light combat fighter, you can't use Sead and spectra technology of Rafale in small Light fighter LCA already said by indian member.
> LCA has Mayawi ECM suite and it dosent have the power for something like SPECTRA onboard



WELL of course i meant LCA mark2 how can LCA mark 1 have rafale's system


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## alimobin memon

This is just ridiculous anything can happen in war we lose or they lose no one knows, after all we both are Nuclear Power .
saying that pakistani planes are cheaper is also a funny comment, according to history MIG21 were no match for mig19 in dogfight . now u will say proof please read some books or search ur self.


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## baqai

After accomplishing #1 on our list which was JF-17 i think we do deserve a little right to day dream don't you think so? Regarding LCA, if you guys want we can send over few chota ustaad's to fix the damn thing for you guys!  



lightoftruth said:


> HUGE PHUSS is very common these days specially with fanboys examples
> 1.PN intrested in j11.
> 2.pN getting qing class Chinese submarines.
> 3.Pakistan has many icbms but not showing it.
> 4.Pakistan is purchasing j10b.
> 5.pN is purchasing German 214.
> thanks for your concerns over LCA.


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## lightoftruth

baqai said:


> After accomplishing #1 on our list which was JF-17 i think we do deserve a little right to day dream don't you think so? Regarding LCA, if you guys want we can send over few chota ustaad's to fix the damn thing for you guys!


 ur wish day dreams are not new in ur country. tell ur chota ustaad to make a car first, our lca is tooooo precious for any chota mota to touch it


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## Akasa

MightyDragon said:


> Rafale, Eurofighter may still more advanced then J-10, but in view of the terrible economic situation in Europe, the further improvement of Rafale and Eurofighter will likely fall behind J-10. Thanks to the project of J-20, China aero industry will soon surpass Europe and catch up with USA...



I respectfully disagree. The J-10B features all of the upgrades noticed on those Rafales and Eurofighters: application of RAM, composites to increase T/W ratio, AESA radar (so far we know the J-10B's radar has 1200 T/R modules while Rafale only has 880 T/R modules), upgraded engines (actually, only the J-10B features this upgrade), sensor fusion to some degree, new IRST, MAWS, etc. Those are technically "fifth generation" upgrades and are used to classify "4.5 generation aircraft". Unlike the Rafale and Eurofighter, the J-10B also features a brand new ECM suite, solid state integrated electronics, and a brand new cockpit. I do not think Europe, after all this stagnation, would put together a machine that outperforms China's current technologies especially considering the fact that the J-10B was used as a smaller test platform for scaled down J-20 technologies.

Regarding your second point, I highly doubt China could catch up to the USA in terms of this field. The United States boasts half a century of experience as well as a very solid network of suppliers. The United States has opened plants in other countries and mostly "brain drains" other countries, just like they did to Canada during the 1950s. China's aviation industry, when it comes to civilians especially, has just taken off the ground and is unlikely to be a good match for the United States' senior aviation industries. Just take a look at how long it took China to perfect the WS-10 engine. Now do that to an airfoil that is in effect all the more sensitive.



MiG-21 said:


> J-10B is, a poor man's Rafale
> 
> JF-17 is, a poor man's F-16



LOL that's like saying a Rolex is a poor man's Cartier. Or a Toyota is a poor man's Lexus.



DrSomnath999 said:


> mate i think u should nt have posted this link
> 
> if u read the entire article it states somewhere that Chinese expert CHANG i quote
> 
> 
> now would u beleive it or not
> 
> 
> 
> well dont worry !! this is another secret advantage of MMRCA deal
> 
> we would utilize those technology used to built rafale in building LCA /PAKFA
> 
> CHEERS



Funny how you quote a guy who is the laughingstock of the internet world. He has been proven to be wrong on almost every occasion. Too insecure to post quality sources?

Well, let me do the honors.






That is a picture of the manufacturer of the J-10B AESA, proving that it has 1200 T/R modules compared to the Rafale's reported 880. This was also proven at a recent exhibition where it said that the 607th institute's PESA lost out to the 14th institute's AESA.



sancho said:


> Not really, China as *you* pointed out is testing *now AESA radars in fighters* with first demo versions, while Rafale and EF did the same years ago, so they have developed this technology way before China was able to do it, that's a fact! They are just putting it in operational service now, which China will also do in some years only, possibly with J10B as the first platform.



Radars for fighters utilize the same exact technology as those seen on AWACS aircraft. China's deployment of the KJ-2000, KJ-200, are examples of its long history and experience. Building those things aren't easy; China has built multiple models and deployed them on multiple platforms, and much earlier as well, which will almost definitely give them an edge when compared to the untested and unused European counterparts. You can't improve something that hasn't been in service.



sancho said:


> As I said, China has more money for developments, that's why you have a higher pace to develop new things. But the Europeans are way ahead in terms of know how and experience and not only in the radar field.



And do explain how exactly they are better on the "know how", taking in mind that it is China that is pumping out 5th generation fighters and multiple 4.5 generation fighters, not Europe. Explain how they would gain such experience when they don't even possess the key tools to explore that field, such as supersonic wind tunnels.

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## regular

Super Falcon said:


> i dont see they are coming


Yes!!!till we see it ourselves.....


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## Edevelop

DrSomnath999 said:


> oh yeah !!
> 
> kindly say how just both have canards u r telling they are equal !!!
> 
> 
> 
> well india was also not fool to allow u to have better stuffs like french avionics & mica missiles for ur JF 17.



Indians and their inferiority complexes, ain't a surprise here.....

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## abdulbarijan

lightoftruth said:


> ur wish day dreams are not new in ur country. tell ur chota ustaad to make a car first, our lca is tooooo precious for any chota mota to touch it



-Aim-120 AMRAAMS

-Paper plane (JF-17)

-JHMCS

-ZDK-03 AWACS

-SD-10A's

-Heck even our own country was a dream....

*
AND WE DO KNOW HOW TO CONVERT DREAMS IN TO REALITY!*

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## Nishan_101

I am sure it will 70 FC-20 of them and then another 70 of J-10Cs till 2020. along with 300 JF-17s.

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## sancho

SinoSoldier said:


> You can't improve something that hasn't been in service.



Of course, because we talk about the industrial development capability and that can be improved with the developments of Tech demonstrators, be it of certain techs, aircrafts or vehicles. Eurofighter for example developed the CESAR AESA demo radar for years and now further developes it to CAPTOR - E AESA, that will be integrated into EF later. The US X - Series of tech demo aircrafts are even very famous for that and were a base for most of their further developments, although only very few techs or design came into operational service.




SinoSoldier said:


> And do explain how exactly they are better on the "know how"



And the same stuff again, money is not = experience and know how! The rest read my earlier replies to you.


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## Storm Force

Nishan


> I am sure it will 70 FC-20 of them and then another 70 of J-10Cs till 2020. along with 300 JF-17s.






THAT 440 new FIGHTERS in 10 YEARS .... 

No country in the world can induct 440 new fighters in 10 years certainly not any developing nation 

Try look at the PACE of induction the last 10 years or even 5 years to see HOW long these things can take. 

To Move THUNDER from block 1 to block 3 with improved compsite build,,, new avionics ,, new radar even new engine will take hundreds of millions of dollars and years of TEST FLYING...

PAF current induction rate of mk1 JFT is 10 per year.

You are suggesting tripling this. AND have given no thought to future development timscale, cost OF INDUCTION and TESTING.

Most countries including USA are scaling back their fighter induction programmes due to MASSIVE GLOBAL RECESSION.

I think you may have been optimistic with 440 fighters.#


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## Nishan_101

Don't worry for PAF.


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## PakShaheen79

Back to original topic,

Any further details about the PAF chief visit to China particularly in context of J-10?


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## IceCold

MiG-21 said:


> J-10B is, a poor man's Rafale
> 
> JF-17 is, a poor man's F-16



Problem with ur quote is that this poor man has both the JF-17 and the F-16. As for the J-10, since you don't know about its capabilities, you cannot compare it with rafale because in the end your statement might become true but in the reverse direction.


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## sancho

IceCold said:


> Problem with ur quote is that this poor man has both the JF-17 and the F-16. As for the J-10, since you don't know about its capabilities, you cannot compare it with rafale because in the end your statement might become true but in the reverse direction.



The problem with his or several Pakistani / Chinese posts in this thread it, that people often see things only one sided and ignore the rest, but there are always 2 sides of the medal that we have to look at! 

Realistically and based on J10A / Rafale F3 specs and capabilities, J10 is inferior as a fighter. The B version will be better, but so will the F3+ that India wants as well. But for each Rafale F3+ IAF buys, PLAAF can buy 2 x J10Bs because of the cost difference, that means even if it's technically inferior in a 1 on 1 comparison, the numbers will equalise that to some extend. So J10B in higher numbers will be a capable threat to IAF from PLAAFs side (imo the biggest 4.5 gen threat, while it doesn't add anything to the differences between PAF and IAF. 

PAF will have the technically inferior fighter and in low numbers, compared mainly to MKI and only a few Rafale squads. However, the same one sided point of view is of course available at my fellow countrymen too, that still look only at some inferior techs of PAF, while not seeing that PAF has dramatically improved and closed the gap that it had in 1999. JF 17 is a propper 4th gen multi role fighter and inducted at PAFs base in good numbers, with AWACS support, deep strike or SEAD capabilities and will not only be cheap, but very useful in war times as well.

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## SEAL

J-10 will certainly change the game for PAF, IAF already loosing strength currently IAF allocated only 2 squadrons for China and even if India deploy 70% Rafales on Pak border one way or the other India is nanga from one border and in these circumstances 70 J-10B is big strength for PAF.

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## abdulbarijan

sancho said:


> The problem with his or several Pakistani / Chinese posts in this thread it, that people often see things only one sided and ignore the rest, but there are always 2 sides of the medal that we have to look at!
> 
> Realistically and based on J10A / Rafale F3 specs and capabilities, J10 is inferior as a fighter. The B version will be better, but so will the F3+ that India wants as well. But for each Rafale F3+ IAF buys, PLAAF can buy 2 x J10Bs because of the cost difference, that means even if it's technically inferior in a 1 on 1 comparison, the numbers will equalise that to some extend. So J10B in higher numbers will be a capable threat to IAF from PLAAFs side (imo the biggest 4.5 gen threat, while it doesn't add anything to the differences between PAF and IAF.
> 
> *PAF will have the technically inferior fighter* and in low numbers, compared mainly to MKI and only a few Rafale squads. However, the same one sided point of view is of course available at my fellow countrymen too, that still look only at some inferior techs of PAF, while not seeing that PAF has dramatically improved and closed the gap that it had in 1999. JF 17 is a propper 4th gen multi role fighter and inducted at PAFs base in good numbers, with AWACS support, deep strike or SEAD capabilities and will not only be cheap, but very useful in war times as well.



*Just cuz A > B

Does not automatically mean 

A (upgraded) > B (upgraded) 
*
Frankly we have had enough surprises already so we should expect new surprises to follow....

- Every body from experts to fanboys (anti chinese or what ever u call em / p.s nothing against fanboys cuz im a part of u guys.LOL!) said that there is no way China could ever produce something like a 5th generation before 2015...They proved it wrong (they have other 5th gen programs like (J-2X / J-19 or whatever the names are) besides the J-20.

-So called paper plane repeatedly beats F-16A/B and then is branded as a game changer for PAF (JF-17)

-J-10 beats J-11's and all.


*So most respectfully sir you should not just based on this is upgraded and this is upgraded too and the rafale is automatically superior...you should also take the progress of Chinese development in to account...
*

Anyways if PAF gets 58 J-10B's (amongst the last info release of J-10's by Sir Pshamim) it wont just give PAF a great platform...

Consider JF-17 Block I/ II along with MLU upgraded F-16's and F-16 Block 50's that will accompany them ... and also add the force multipliers....It will reshape the entire PAF which could change its strategy from completely defensive to moderate offensive.....

Then the element of new weaponry like Pl-21's etc that might be available by the time J-10B is received by PAF...

*IM NOT SAYING PAF WILL BE STRONGER THAN IAF AS IT ALSO IS INDUCTING NEW EQUIPMENT.... IM JUST MAKING THE POINT THAT PAF WILL BY FAAAR HAVE A BETTER CHANCE THAN WITH A FLEET 5-10 YEARS IT HAD BEFORE EVEN WITH THE UPGRADES IN IAF.... *

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## Storm Force

J10 discussions between PDF members themselves keep varying from

One xtreme of 150 to the other xtreme PAF have not ordered any until they have seen FC20 in its full glory. 

Western aviation magazines have suggested a intial order of 40 planes based on PAF financial restrictions and PLAAF ability to supply,,, but even this is not concrete.


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## sancho

abdulbarijan said:


> So most respectfully sir you should not just based on this is upgraded and this is upgraded too and the rafale is automatically superior...you should also take the progress of Chinese development in to account...



I didn't! I pointed out that the current Rafale base is already better than the current J10, so they have to upgrade the J10 to be as capable as the current Rafale first, but by then the Rafale will also be upgraded and goes ahead again.
Also, the progress in Chinas general development capability can make the radar possibly better than expected, but not the fighter as a whole, because the baseline J10 design and layout will remain the same. So there are limitations on how far it can be upgraded and J10B would need several improvements to be as capable as Rafale even today.

The 5th gen fighter point btw is highly debatable, because the presence of J20 distracts a bit from the fact that no AESA radar is developed for any of their fighters yet, that their engine developments have problems too, that no SC capable engine nor TVC were developed so far. Things that even modern 4.5 gen fighters have and that all 5th gen fighter developments apart from the F35 will have too. I would be more impressed by Chinas capabilities, if J10B comes with reduced RCS and weight, improved thrust and payload, CFTs, SC and TVC features, because that would show that they really reached a comparable level as other countries. A fighter which design is mainly taken from Russian and US designs and has so far didn't proven any other NG capability doesn't. That's why there is still the talk about procuring additional Russian fighter engines, Su 35, or even J20 beeing a tech demonstrator when the new engines and radars will be available. When you look at innovations, even the infos we have about the T50 prototype impresses more (different AESA radars, SC from the start, LEVCONs, possibly the highest flight performance specs from all 5th gen fighters...) or?

However, that's a different issue and we simply will have to wait and see how comparable to modern 4.5 gen fighters it will be at the end. Would have loved to see if India would have gone with a medium class, single engine, delta canards development instead of LCA, it would have formed a great hi / lo mix with MKI and FGFA.



Storm Force said:


> J10 discussions between PDF members themselves keep varying from
> 
> One xtreme of 150 to the other xtreme PAF have not ordered any until they have seen FC20 in its full glory.
> 
> Western aviation magazines have suggested a intial order of 40 planes based on PAF financial restrictions and PLAAF ability to supply,,, but even this is not concrete.



Officially from PAF it is still at 36 as far as I read in the J10 section, but there are speculations abou more. Imo that depends only on the improvement of JF 17, if it's close to what J10B offers, PAF should prefer the indigenous fighter.


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## alimobin memon

Officialy initial order is 36 may eventually increase from 36 to 150


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## Irfan Baloch

Storm Force said:


> J10 discussions between PDF members themselves keep varying from
> 
> One xtreme of 150 to the other xtreme PAF have not ordered any until they have seen FC20 in its full glory.
> 
> Western aviation magazines have suggested a intial order of 40 planes based on PAF financial restrictions and PLAAF ability to supply,,, but even this is not concrete.



that is right

the numbers being discussed here are from air force enthusiasts and at best are gestimations. 
depending on the types of Governments in Pakistan and United states, we varied in our requirement for the number of F-16s to Mirage 2000s (during Benazir's PPP era).

the financial restrictions (as you put it) have their role to play but with China we have softer loan options. when talking numbers of J-19 then think JF-17 and F-16s in the mix too and future trends (geopolitical and threat perceptions)


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## ANG

Hi, this articles seems to indicate the J-10 purchase will be delayed due to monetary issues...

Pakistan Budget Up for Army, Air Force; Down for Navy | Defense News | defensenews.com


Pakistan Budget Up for Army, Air Force; Down for Navy
Jun. 6, 2012 - 11:39AM | By Usman ANSARI

ISLAMABAD &#8212; Pakistan&#8217;s new defense budget increases funding for the Army and Air Force and slightly decreases it for the Navy, but challenging economic conditions put near-term procurements in doubt.

The fiscal 2012-2013 defense budget, in current U.S. dollars, allocates $2.8 billion to the Army, an increase of $128 million; $1.2 billion for the Air Force, an increase of $64 million; and $562 million to the Navy, a $1.4 million decrease from the previous year.

The defense budget does not, however, usually include procurement funding and is comprised mainly of wages and running costs with increases fueled by ongoing counterinsurgency efforts.

Analyst and former fighter pilot Kaiser Tufail expects no new procurements in the near future.

&#8220;There is no doubt that the government is facing a very serious funding issue, and modernization programs of all three services are on the back burner,&#8221; he said.

&#8220;Although I&#8217;d like to keep politics aside, I suspect the government is keeping quite a bit of money to come up with various gimmicks just prior to the elections as well as during [vote buying], so defense matters are secondary for the time being,&#8221; he added.

*One high-profile Air Force procurement project, the FC-20, a Pakistani-specific variant of the Chinese Chengdu J-10 Vigorous Dragon multirole fighter, may be adversely affected by the poor economic and political climate, he said.
Tufail said proceeding with this procurement is &#8220;far-fetched for the present.&#8221;*

He also criticized money he says is being wasted on what he considers &#8220;ill-conceived projects and operations.&#8221; As examples, he lists &#8220;sustaining Jacobabad Base,&#8221; which he said is being largely resupplied by air, has its entire power supply generated on site and is fully air conditioned, the ongoing Siachen operations, expensive staff cars, and VIP transport jets.

&#8220;There seems to be no oversight of the Ministry of Defence or any other watchdog body,&#8221; he said.

There are predictions that the defense budget will continue to incrementally grow, however, some analysts say these predictions are not realistic.

&#8220;I don&#8217;t think we can increase the budget incrementally since the economy is not in such good shape. The largest part of the budget is, of course, spent on salaries and the rest on infrastructure and operations,&#8221; Tufail said.

&#8220;There is nothing in Pakistan&#8217;s economic forecast that makes it feasible for an annual increment in line with the present one. But the fact is that, with the withholding of U.S. military aid, the money has to come from somewhere,&#8221; said former Australian defense attaché to Islamabad, Brian Cloughley.

He also highlighted the effect of escalating operating costs.

&#8220;I don&#8217;t think the world at large quite realizes what extra operating costs the Army is having to bear, with over 150,000 Army and [Frontier Constabulary] troops deployed in the border regions &#8212; all because of the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan. The costs of fuel and rations, alone, are staggering. Then there&#8217;s the expensive matter of extra sorties by [ground attack fighters] and gunships. Not just the ammunition and ordnance, but the fuel and maintenance bills. People don&#8217;t realize what the Afghan war is costing Pakistan.&#8221;

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## Abingdonboy

^^ So case closed??


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## lightoftruth

Abingdonboy said:


> ^^ So case closed??


 Naa the dream continues.


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## IHK_PK

Storm Force said:


> Nishan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *THAT 440 new FIGHTERS in 10 YEARS ....
> 
> No country in the world can induct 440 new fighters in 10 years* certainly not any developing nation
> 
> Try look at the PACE of induction the last 10 years or even 5 years to see HOW long these things can take.
> 
> To Move THUNDER from block 1 to block 3 with improved compsite build,,, new avionics ,, new radar even new engine will take hundreds of millions of dollars and years of TEST FLYING...
> 
> PAF current induction rate of mk1 JFT is 10 per year.
> 
> You are suggesting tripling this. AND have given no thought to future development timscale, cost OF INDUCTION and TESTING.
> 
> Most countries including USA are scaling back their fighter induction programmes due to MASSIVE GLOBAL RECESSION.
> 
> I think you may have been optimistic with 440 fighters.#





Sir G..... we have already got 100 JF-17 out of those 440...... lol..... now u calculate the rest of the calculation.......hahahhaa.

And pls dont ask me the link and source.

  And pls dont ask me the link and source.

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## DrSomnath999

ANG said:


> s.com/article/20120606/DEFREG03/306060006/Pakistan-Budget-Up-Army-Air-Force-59-Down-Navy?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE]Pakistan Budget Up for Army, Air Force; Down for Navy | Defense News | defensenews.com[/url]
> 
> 
> 
> *One high-profile Air Force procurement project, the FC-20, a Pakistani-specific variant of the Chinese Chengdu J-10 Vigorous Dragon multirole fighter, may be adversely affected by the poor economic and political climate, he said.
> Tufail said proceeding with this procurement is &#8220;far-fetched for the present.&#8221;*


i was going to post it any ways good u posted it
WELL nothing more to debate here


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## Nishan_101

Now we might be able to produce 70 FC-20(J-10BS) and then another 70 J-10CS.


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## alimobin memon

Defence budget is up than last year FC-20 will not affect the project , since Jf17 block 2 is coming i dont think we need fc-20 in so hurry.


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## sancho

ANG said:


> One high-profile Air Force procurement project, the FC-20, a Pakistani-specific variant of the Chinese Chengdu J-10 Vigorous Dragon multirole fighter, may be *adversely affected by the poor* economic and *political climate*, he said.
> Tufail said proceeding with this procurement is &#8220;far-fetched for the present.&#8221;



What polititcal problems are there?


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## fatman17

*By Usman ANSARI*

sorry but this guy is 'crap**a!

*One high-profile Air Force procurement project, the FC-20, a Pakistani-specific variant of the Chinese Chengdu J-10 Vigorous Dragon multirole fighter, may be adversely affected by the poor economic and political climate, he said.
Tufail said proceeding with this procurement is &#8220;far-fetched for the present.&#8221;*

the payment for the J-10 system will not be made in one year, but will be spread over 'several' years to mitigate the impact on the PAF budget. the budget for PAF is going up for 2012-13 to cater for the induction of the 2nd tranche of JFT-blk-2 (50 a/c).

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## alimobin memon

fatman17 said:


> *By Usman ANSARI*
> 
> sorry but this guy is 'crap**a!
> 
> *One high-profile Air Force procurement project, the FC-20, a Pakistani-specific variant of the Chinese Chengdu J-10 Vigorous Dragon multirole fighter, may be adversely affected by the poor economic and political climate, he said.
> Tufail said proceeding with this procurement is &#8220;far-fetched for the present.&#8221;*
> 
> the payment for the J-10 system will not be made in one year, but will be spread over 'several' years to mitigate the impact on the PAF budget. the budget for PAF is going up for 2012-13 to cater for the induction of the 2nd tranche of JFT-blk-2 (50 a/c).


Thanks for clearing cuz i dont know what is going on here , this time budget has increased and for last 2 years there are talks of j10 ! and now when budget increased. than last year "it is impossible" that is one Crazy statement. Fatman's saying right it's not like we are to buy Fleet of j10 in one payment, Everyone pays installments and i said it before that , PAF pilots have actually 1 that i know has said , i dont think we are really in hurry to buy j10 we are fine now. The PAF pilots have had exercise with PLAAF and they have compared performances and are happy with jf17.

Technical knowledge, " some aircrafts are designed to carry 5000 kg of external payload , however to increase the payload the new composite material is added that increase for example 1000kg more payload but the cost of that material is thrice the previous composite material." Avionics wise there is not much of difference b/w jf17 and j10 no matter what u say about cost , the j10 has different engine and composites but avionics are same in both the aircraft , no matter what jf17.com says (it's unofficial) anyway the jf17 carries klj10 version of jf17 (klj7) the disk is small but everything is same the disk has decreased range for 5m^2 to 109km exact however with Active homing four bvr's and with sem active 2. and the EW suite JF17 has on tail tip is Different and powerful The development cost defines the fly away cost per unit , j10 cost of development is different . jf17 was made by only 500 mn $ why ? because it was based on the experience of PAF f16 and F7pg . There is diamond shaped jf17 as experiment for block 2 and 3 which media has no proof but it exist. However Jf17 of Pakistan airforce is cheap because it's development was cheap and easy manufacturing compared to western counterparts. and j10 initial program fund was 550 million $. in 2002-3 PAF was going to buy Mirage 2000 Hell i dont know what variant , because in 2002 PAF didnt expect Jf17 to be a so competent fighter but later when it rolled out the details and visiting of the Airforce for full testing phase impressed and shocked some that F16 mlu on bases of Avionics was no match for jf17. However Pakistan airforce is so secretive that no one knows the true capability of the fighter. What any1 is just half of it. my friend in PAF believes that the export variant wont be like jf17 of PAF but ofcourse the less. In the end i would say only one thing guys Hope for the Best expect the worst, even if we won't get FC-20 that means we already have something to deal with our enemies.

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## abdulbarijan

fatman17 said:


> *By Usman ANSARI*
> 
> sorry but this guy is 'crap**a!
> 
> *One high-profile Air Force procurement project, the FC-20, a Pakistani-specific variant of the Chinese Chengdu J-10 Vigorous Dragon multirole fighter, may be adversely affected by the poor economic and political climate, he said.
> Tufail said proceeding with this procurement is far-fetched for the present.*
> 
> the payment for the J-10 system will not be made in one year, but will be spread over 'several' years to mitigate the impact on the PAF budget. the budget for PAF is going up for 2012-13 to cater for the induction of the 2nd tranche of JFT-blk-2 (50 a/c).




Look at the bright side, this at least confirms that

- We *DO HAVE* a procurement program for the FC-20 contrary to the belief of Indian counter parts, that are still waiting for *"official" news*..

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## araz

I personally feel no news will come out till the MMRCA result is made public. Behinfd the scene the specs are already being sorted out. 
Araz


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## The Great One

araz said:


> I personally feel no news will come out till the MMRCA result is made public. Behinfd the scene the specs are already being sorted out.
> Araz


I thought MMRCA result was made public some 4 months ago. Do you think PAF still hoping that our deal with the French will crash out.


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## fatman17

guys the JFT is going to the 'backbone' of the AF, just like sabres were in 65 and the F-6's / sabres in 71. the 'cutting edge' in 65 was the starfighter, mirage in 71. now the cutting edge will be the F-16s/J-10B's once they are inducted in 2014-15 window. by that time the JFT will be fully integrated in the PAF (for all 3 roles - CAS, AD, M-strike). then the PAF can turn their focus on the J-10B with the chinese powerplant, AESA and a bunch of other goodies. so chill guys.......remember many here said that JFT is a 'non-starter' because Russia wont give 'permission' for the engine, and the F-16C/D's wont see the light-of-day in PAF livery.....well guess what?

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## alimobin memon

There is not much difference b/w j10b and jf17 block2 , PAF will eventually negotiate for other fighter maybe jf17 blk3 or j20 or jxx


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## fatman17

alimobin memon said:


> There is not much difference b/w j10b and jf17 block2 , PAF will eventually negotiate for other fighter maybe jf17 blk3 or j20 or jxx



whatever, the point is a new weapons system will be inducted in the near-term.

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## regular

Okay guyz...Soundz cool info is distributed here...be happi and chillout then with the Red Chilli sauce......


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## farhan_9909

oh God

kaisar tufail has just given a hint

no official confirmation
of it being delayed or cancelled

you guys are just wasting time


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## killerx

PAF should buy more then 36 at least 75 and more F16B52 total 50

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## manofwar

killerx said:


> PAF should buy more then 36 at least 75 and more F16B52 total 50


And you can fund all this from your salary..............

Seriously man, between increasing nukes , economic crisis, electricity crisis, growing military, decreasing military aid, *how can Pakistan possibly find funds for these??*
Instead, you can get Saab Gripen in the same range............and it isn't that expensive and doesn't carry the American name tag


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## alimobin memon

manofwar said:


> And you can fund all this from your salary..............
> 
> Seriously man, between increasing nukes , economic crisis, electricity crisis, growing military, decreasing military aid, *how can Pakistan possibly find funds for these??*
> Instead, you can get Saab Gripen in the same range............and it isn't that expensive and doesn't carry the American name tag


Haahahaa what a joke u told now every one ROFL together for this wonderful joke !!

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## killerx

manofwar said:


> And you can fund all this from your salary..............
> 
> Seriously man, between increasing nukes , economic crisis, electricity crisis, growing military, decreasing military aid, *how can Pakistan possibly find funds for these??*
> Instead, you can get Saab Gripen in the same range............and it isn't that expensive and doesn't carry the American name tag



we have proven our self brother beating you in JF17 and AL-khalid tank cheap built in less time cost half of indian counterparts so stop winingabout it and we can buy F16B52 and J10B so stop trolling

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## ziaulislam

manofwar said:


> And you can fund all this from your salary..............
> 
> Seriously man, between increasing nukes , economic crisis, electricity crisis, growing military, decreasing military aid, *how can Pakistan possibly find funds for these??*
> Instead, you can get Saab Gripen in the same range............and it isn't that expensive and doesn't carry the American name tag


techincally besides all bad things our growth isnt much less than yours 5.1 %last quarter frowth.
if govt can give subsidy of over 500 billion on electrcrity or 150 billion for benazir income prog for poors, then 75 j-10s are nothing..
infact 5 years of PIA loses can pay for 75 j-10s over 5 years ..
so for 250 billion dollars economy, 3-4 billion over years is nothing. besides we have 6 billion defense budget..

the difference is priorities, current democratic govt priority is not defense at all.

dont show your ignorance, it seem schildish


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## ababeel22

to be honest Pakistan should buy used f16s upgrade them in turkey to the latest configurations they can. j10 is not a necessity, rather work should be done in to developing latter blocks of jf17 in to more potent one.

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## alimobin memon

ababeel22 said:


> to be honest Pakistan should buy used f16s upgrade them in turkey to the latest configurations they can. j10 is not a necessity, rather work should be done in to developing latter blocks of jf17 in to more potent one.


 I agree Definitely if FC20 has time we should be focussing on current possibilities or options.


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## Beast

ababeel22 said:


> to be honest Pakistan should buy used f16s upgrade them in turkey to the latest configurations they can. j10 is not a necessity, rather work should be done in to developing latter blocks of jf17 in to more potent one.



F-16 is an american product. Given the already very bad sour relationship between each other, you are still asking them to get more American product? Somebody even give a thanks for yr post?? 

Are you all ignorance or what?

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistans-war/185888-pakistan-bar-cia-operations-its-territory.html

J-10 of cos is necessity. J-10 advanced aerodyamic using canard allows high speed tight turning is something F-16 cannot do it...


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## Beast

alimobin memon said:


> I agree Definitely if FC20 has time we should be focussing on current possibilities or options.



If PAF agrees with you, they will be the ultimate failure!


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## T-Rex

Beast said:


> F-16 is an american product. Given the already very bad sour relationship between each other, you are still asking them to get more American product? Somebody even give a thanks for yr post??
> 
> Are you all ignorance or what?
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistans-war/185888-pakistan-bar-cia-operations-its-territory.html
> 
> J-10 of cos is necessity. J-10 advanced aerodyamic using canard allows high speed tight turning is something F-16 cannot do it...



*Buddy, there's no shortage of american stooges in Pakistan. Their task is to disrupt Pakistan's defence capabilities, when there's no chance of that they try to misguide. Every Muslim country has these bugs.*

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## IceCold

Beast said:


> F-16 is an american product. Given the already very bad sour relationship between each other, you are still asking them to get more American product? Somebody even give a thanks for yr post??
> 
> Are you all ignorance or what?
> 
> J-10 of cos is necessity. J-10 advanced aerodyamic using canard allows high speed tight turning is something F-16 cannot do it...



The infrastructure for F-16 is already in place that us why many in PAF if not all favors F-16 over anything else. But yes considering how swiftly the relationship between the Pakistan and the US has deteriorated, the ones we have got are the last one. Future lies with the JF-17 and of course the J-10 aka FC-20. Lets see when and how quickly the Government can arrange funds for the FC-20......probably in the next term.


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## alimobin memon

Beast said:


> If PAF agrees with you, they will be the ultimate failure!


Ok now 36 J10 will make Paf successful? first of all i said let the FC20 get mature till than focus on what we can have. I never said dont buy J10. lolx PAF will be ultimate failure Buahahhahhahhh


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## [--Leo--]

any usefull link that confirms that we are getting soon this aircraft


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## Beast

alimobin memon said:


> Ok now 36 J10 will make Paf successful? first of all i said let the FC20 get mature till than focus on what we can have. I never said dont buy J10. lolx PAF will be ultimate failure Buahahhahhahhh



originally plan is to procure even a large fleet of F-16 but PAF scale down the plan. As for the reason, i need not to repeat again.
As for the F-16 deal, it was signed during Mushaff reign. I don't forsee they are reversing their current plan and go back for more F-16.


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## Najam Khan

alimobin memon said:


> Ok now 36 J10 will make Paf successful? first of all i said let the FC20 get mature till than focus on what we can have. I never said dont buy J10. lolx PAF will be ultimate failure Buahahhahhahhh



When the first Rafale will be delivered to IAF? Late 2013/ early2014? How many years will it take to produce and induct all of them in IAF? 8-10 years I believe. 

The bracket PAF set for induction of J-10s is greatly dependent on MMRCA induction in IAF. PAF has no other choice but to go for J-10s, cabinet committee for defence has given permission for this deal long time ago, what more we want?

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## The Great One

Najam Khan said:


> When the first Rafale will be delivered to IAF? Late 2013/ early2014? How many years will it take to produce and induct all of them in IAF? 8-10 years I believe.
> 
> The bracket PAF set for induction of J-10s is greatly dependent on MMRCA induction in IAF. PAF has no other choice but to go for J-10s, cabinet committee for defence has given permission for this deal long time ago, what more we want?


What about Super Sukhoi's? No plan to counter it? Or is FC-20 so good that it can take them both at the same time. 
BTW isn't it high time that you guys moved on from platform-based counter measures to system-based ones.


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## ababeel22

i dont think usa will be too concerned with few used f16s in paf inventory its not f22 we are talking about plus pakistan have been able to keep their f16s flying in past under similar circumstances i dnt see it as a big problem


Beast said:


> F-16 is an american product. Given the already very bad sour relationship between each other, you are still asking them to get more American product? Somebody even give a thanks for yr post??
> 
> Are you all ignorance or what?
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistans-war/185888-pakistan-bar-cia-operations-its-territory.html
> 
> J-10 of cos is necessity. J-10 advanced aerodyamic using canard allows high speed tight turning is something F-16 cannot do it...


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## alimobin memon

Najam Khan said:


> When the first Rafale will be delivered to IAF? Late 2013/ early2014? How many years will it take to produce and induct all of them in IAF? 8-10 years I believe.
> 
> The bracket PAF set for induction of J-10s is greatly dependent on MMRCA induction in IAF. PAF has no other choice but to go for J-10s, cabinet committee for defence has given permission for this deal long time ago, what more we want?


for now no other fighter than j10 and jf17


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## Beast

ababeel22 said:


> i dont think usa will be too concerned with few used f16s in paf inventory its not f22 we are talking about plus pakistan have been able to keep their f16s flying in past under similar circumstances i dnt see it as a big problem



It is indeed a big concern, Stop yr suggestion of more F-16 for PAF. PAF F-16 flying under sanction lack the BVR upgrade and many are flying at not full abilites which hamper its abilites during Kargil War.

This time the relationship sour is more with hatred and mistrust rather than Pakistan nuclear ambition. It will be more serious than the last one. Seeking more F-16 means seeking your own death.

US this time will not turn a blind eye of Turkish secret aid of parts for PAF during sanction times.
They will threaten Turkey if US decide to sanction Pakistan.

Also you need to consider, there is the possibilities of Pakistan and US trading blow if drone attack is getting out of hand.

PAF definitely need to consider war with US.

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## lightoftruth

Najam Khan said:


> When the first Rafale will be delivered to IAF? Late 2013/ early2014? How many years will it take to produce and induct all of them in IAF? 8-10 years I believe.
> 
> The bracket PAF set for induction of J-10s is greatly dependent on MMRCA induction in IAF. PAF has no other choice but to go for J-10s,* cabinet committee for defence has given permission for this deal long time ago,* what more we want?


sir any link would be highly appreciated.


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## IceCold

lightoftruth said:


> sir any link would be highly appreciated.



Here:
Pakistan approves purchase of Lockheed Martin F-16s and Chengdu J-10 fighters

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## lightoftruth

IceCold said:


> Here:
> Pakistan approves purchase of Lockheed Martin F-16s and Chengdu J-10 fighters


 sir its from flightglobal.com any pakistani source?


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## IceCold

lightoftruth said:


> sir its from flightglobal.com any pakistani source?



You can go through here, you will find the related links as well. You do realize what you are looking for is from 2006.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/1067-f-16-thread.html

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## lightoftruth

IceCold said:


> You can go through here, you will find the related links as well. You do realize what you are looking for is from 2006.
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/1067-f-16-thread.html


 got it thanks for clearing doubts.


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## Nishan_101

I am quite sure for 70 FC-20s but not for F-16s.


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## Najam Khan

The Great One said:


> *What about Super Sukhoi's?* No plan to counter it? Or is FC-20 so good that it can take them both at the same time.
> BTW isn't it high time that you guys moved on from platform-based counter measures to system-based ones.



What exactly is a Super Sukhoi? A Su-30 with AESA radar, avionics upgrade and possibly more use of composites? Let it roll out first. FC-20 deal hasn't inked yet, if 50+ a/c are procured along with considerable changes in JF-17 Block-II/III then PAF will be in good shape to tackle them. Not to mention the "six-on-six" AMRAAM carrying capability coming on MLU F-16s too.

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## alimobin memon

Najam Khan said:


> What exactly is a Super Sukhoi? A Su-30 with AESA radar, avionics upgrade and possibly more use of composites? Let it roll out first. FC-20 deal hasn't inked yet, if 50+ a/c are procured along with considerable changes in JF-17 Block-II/III then PAF will be in good shape to tackle them. Not to mention the "six-on-six" AMRAAM carrying capability coming on MLU F-16s too.


According to PAF officer interview (the guy with mustache and glasses  ) seriously I am forgetting names dammit , he said only SU30 MKI creates problem to PAF is TVC ENGINE that can evade missiles , but avionics are just as normal.


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## KRAIT

alimobin memon said:


> According to PAF officer interview (the guy with mustache and glasses  ) seriously I am forgetting names dammit , he said only SU30 MKI creates problem to PAF is TVC ENGINE that can evade missiles , but avionics are just as normal.


Yeahhh...right....


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## DrSomnath999

IceCold said:


> Here:
> Pakistan approves purchase of Lockheed Martin F-16s and Chengdu J-10 fighters


but THE article states i quote



> Islamabad is *also expected to order up to 100 FC-10s, *to be co-produced by Pakistan Aeronautical Complex as the JF-17. Deliveries are due to begin in 2007. The FC-10 deal would be for 36 of the J-10 variant and would be in additon to the FC-1/JF-17s Pakistan is already taking, this would be the first export of the J-10.



no where it is written it has signed or approved the deal


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## SQ8

DrSomnath999 said:


> but THE article states i quote
> 
> 
> 
> *no where it is written it has signed or approved the deal *



There has been nothing more than an intent and MoU on co-development(avionics, standardization for the PAF etc)..along the lines the F-7 was purchased for the PAF.
There is as of yet NO purchase order, no money transferred and NO FC-20 beyond a staff requirement and a RFP to CATIC.


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## alimobin memon

Oscar said:


> There has been nothing more than an intent and MoU on co-development(avionics, standardization for the PAF etc)..along the lines the F-7 was purchased for the PAF.
> There is as of yet NO purchase order, no money transferred and NO FC-20 beyond a staff requirement and a RFP to CATIC.



For fools who dont believe in j10 for PAF , recently j10 figure was given to PAF chief and that in j10B some pak engineers are also working believe or I dont care  PAKISTAN ZINDABAD


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## SQ8

alimobin memon said:


> For fools who dont believe in j10 for PAF , recently j10 figure was given to PAF chief and that in j10B some pak engineers are also working believe or I dont care  PAKISTAN ZINDABAD



What exactly are you trying to say?


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## TAC

Oscar said:


> What exactly are you trying to say?



He's on about the pic of ACM Tahir Rafique being gifted a model of the J-10 at CATIC during his recent trip to China.

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## Storm Force

ALIMOBIN...

statement from KAISER TUFAIL PAF fighter pilot on new PAK defense budget 

incidently PAF has been allocated $1.2 billion for the fiscal year of 2012-2013

THIS WAS HIS REACTION 



> Analyst and former fighter pilot Kaiser Tufail expects no new procurements in the near future.
> 
> &#8220;There is no doubt that the government is facing a very serious funding issue, and modernization programs of all three services are on the back burner,&#8221; he said.
> 
> &#8220;Although I&#8217;d like to keep politics aside, I suspect the government is keeping quite a bit of money to come up with various gimmicks just prior to the elections as well as during [vote buying], so defense matters are secondary for the time being,&#8221; he added.
> 
> One high-profile Air Force procurement project, the FC-20, a Pakistani-specific variant of the Chinese Chengdu J-10 Vigorous Dragon multirole fighter, may be adversely affected by the poor economic and political climate, he said.
> 
> Tufail said proceeding with this procurement is &#8220;far-fetched for the present.&#8221;
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...p-army-air-force-down-navy.html#ixzz1xPnwlyK8



i AM NOT TRYING TO CAUSE TROUBLE OR TROLL.

Some times we need to look at the real socoa economic factors and the geo political factors too. 

Military power is interlocked with FINANCIAL MUSCLE.... since the dawn of time...

Please relate this to PAF and indeed all discussions this way the THREADS remain realistic and interesting

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## TAC

Storm Force said:


> ALIMOBIN...
> 
> statement from KAISER TUFAIL PAF fighter pilot on new PAK defense budget
> 
> incidently PAF has been allocated $1.2 billion for the fiscal year of 2012-2013
> 
> THIS WAS HIS REACTION
> 
> 
> 
> i AM NOT TRYING TO CAUSE TROUBLE OR TROLL.
> 
> Some times we need to look at the real socoa economic factors and the geo political factors too.
> 
> Military power is interlocked with FINANCIAL MUSCLE.... since the dawn of time...
> 
> Please relate this to PAF and indeed all discussions this way the THREADS remain realistic and interesting



Understood -- but PAF ACM is on record as saying 40 odd FC-20 in PAF by 2016 (thats 4 years away)-- so there is time to sort funding out and it remains 'realistic and interesting'


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## alimobin memon

A confirmed news , The defence budget will be revised and there will be increase in it , there is no decision taken regarding not inducting j10 it's still in process , PAF fighter pilot Kaiser tufail statement is incorrect. Pakistan armed forces defence export have increased and reached to 850 million dollars now in present and the purchasing of weapons is also supported by Armed forces industries own fund. The initial deal of j10 will be no more than 1.5 billion dollars for 36 units. which 100% possible and payment will be in installments. so no more saying discussion regarding j10 deal may go down. 
And first of all since when a pilot is definite about deals ?

Believe it or not , i know some people no need to ask for source cause this discussion not the place to make u believe in everything i believe and i am happy. The Defence budget maybe 540 billion dollars but more will be provided to these three major branches of forces as always. 
For example: 
This year, the army is to get Rs 264.073 billion, air force Rs 114.211 billion and navy Rs 52.727 billion. In last year&#8217;s budget, army&#8217;s share was Rs 236.253 billion, air force Rs 106.144 billion and navy had received Rs 51.564 billion. when we calculate according to this statement given in defense budget news all over internet it is 431.011 billion dollars now how the hell is the 545b on the go? are others for war on terror well doesn't seems so?
at the other hand budget has increased not decreased, in 2011 there were hopes of j10 and now when budget has increased then no? 
believing on one pilot's statement is like hating your wife because just one guy said she was with someone


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## DrSomnath999

Oscar said:


> What exactly are you trying to say?


HE is trying to say PAF will have the model of J10 for sure ,that he is upset noone is beleiving him


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## alimobin memon

Day by Day all I see is sarcasm here , I think it is useless and wasting to discuss here.


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## ziaulislam

there is little doubt that pakistan will get J-10, the real question is when..
uptill now the date is 2015 around the same time jf-17 induction will be completed and MRCA of india will start induction.


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## ChineseTiger1986

Sorry, there is a disappointing news that J-10B gonna still use PESA since its final design was already done few years ago.

Now China has no problem with AESA, but no way they gonna to rechange everything, instead they will bring this to J-10C.

In the future, they might integrate the AESA technology from J-10C to J-10A/B.

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## IceCold

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Sorry, there is a disappointing news that J-10B gonna still use PESA since its final design was already done few years ago.
> 
> Now China has no problem with AESA, but no way they gonna to rechange everything, instead they will bring this to J-10C.
> 
> In the future, they might integrate the AESA technology from J-10C to J-10A/B.



Not that we don't trust you, but a source would be better. 

On a side note if J-10b is still going to use a PESA radar, no wonder Pakistan isn't going for FC-20 and is still evaluating at the same time keeping check on how Indian MRCA turns out to be.


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## DrSomnath999

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Sorry, there is a disappointing news that J-10B gonna still use PESA since its final design was already done few years ago.
> 
> Now China has no problem with AESA, but no way they gonna to rechange everything, instead they will bring this to J-10C.
> 
> In the future, they might integrate the AESA technology from J-10C to J-10A/B.


BUT i remember u were the guy who posted AESA radar was tested & going to be inducted in J 10b ,anyways whats the news 
about J10b induction in chinese airforce



IceCold said:


> Not that we don't trust you, but a source would be better.
> 
> On a side note if J-10b is still going to use a PESA radar, no wonder Pakistan isn't going for FC-20 and is still evaluating at the same time keeping check on how Indian MRCA turns out to be.


yes quite a correct guess i think ,they may be slow or taking their time on evaluating J 10b .There is absolutely no need to hurry for pakistan as india would be getting rafale from 2014 end or 2015 beginning .So i think waiting a year or two wont be a problem


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## ChineseTiger1986

DrSomnath999 said:


> BUT i remember u were the guy who posted AESA radar was tested & going to be inducted in J 10b ,anyways whats the news
> about J10b induction in chinese airforce



That guy 1035 came in July 2011, it does have the AESA radar and the WS-10G engine, but the original J-10B design was long finalized before it came out.

The original J-10B is still going to stick with PESA, while this 1035 aircraft is going to be the prototype of J-10C.







The J-10B prototype was tested and finalized long before this so-called J-10B 1035.


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## DrSomnath999

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> That guy 1035 came in July 2011, it does have the AESA radar and the WS-10G engine, but the original J-10B design was long finalized before it came out.
> 
> The original J-10B is still going to stick with PESA, while this 1035 aircraft is going to be the prototype of J-10C.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The J-10B prototype was tested and finalized long before this so-called J-10B 1035.


OK what about J11b does it have AESA radar or not ???

BTW i have great good info pics from kanwa defence review magazine about J10 & JF17 but it is
in chinese i want ur help to translate it to english 
Would u help ????


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## ChineseTiger1986

IceCold said:


> Not that we don't trust you, but a source would be better.
> 
> On a side note if J-10b is still going to use a PESA radar, no wonder Pakistan isn't going for FC-20 and is still evaluating at the same time keeping check on how Indian MRCA turns out to be.



According to our military insider, China has promised to offer the PAF the J-10 with the AESA radar and the mature WS-10G engine, this is China's political duty.

He claims the deal will likely start around 2014 at the time when India has inducted Rafael, since J-10B is an older design with PESA back in years ago, so it is unlikely that Pakistan is going to take it.

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## ChineseTiger1986

DrSomnath999 said:


> OK what about J11b does it have AESA radar or not ???
> 
> BTW i have great good info pics from kanwa defence review magazine about J10 & JF17 but it is
> in chinese i want ur help to translate it to english
> Would u help ????



J-11B does have AESA, while J-10B does have PESA.

"&#27516;-11" = J-11B
"&#26377;&#28304;&#30456;&#25511;&#38453;" = AESA







"&#27516;-10B" = J-10B
"&#26080;&#28304;&#30456;&#25511;&#38453;" = PESA

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## ChineseTiger1986

Since J-11B is a bigger aircraft with twin engine, so it does make sense that it was the first platform to testify China's indigenous radar and engine.

It is easier to fit the AESA radar into a bigger aircraft, and the twin engine aircraft has the better double check safety than the single engine one.


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## ziaulislam

^^
so what you mean is that Pakistan is likly to get a version similarly to J-10c rather than j-10B


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## sancho

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> J-11B does have AESA, while J-10B does have PESA.



Correct me if I'm wrong, but J11 is already inducted into PLAAF right? Is there any official statement that they have AESA radar? Also, if you are right about the PESA in J10B, why would they integrate it instead of just upgrading the KJ 10 unti AESA is ready? Why add a 3rd radar type to a single fighter? 




ziaulislam said:


> ^^
> so what you mean is that Pakistan is likly to get a version similarly to J-10c rather than j-10B



No, he said J10A & B could be upgraded with AESA from the C version which will come only in the C version. If PAF wants J10 around the time MMRCA will be inducted, they have to take the B version with PESA radar. That's the problem with the fighter, too much is still unknown to really say how capable it really will be, because there are too less official statements on it.


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## ChineseTiger1986

ziaulislam said:


> ^^
> so what you mean is that Pakistan is likly to get a version similarly to J-10c rather than j-10B



The Pakistani decision makers always have a good strategic sight, they never take anything cheap or not necessary.

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## Leviza

sancho said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but J11 is already inducted into PLAAF right? Is there any official statement that they have AESA radar? Also, if you are right about the PESA in J10B, why would they integrate it instead of just upgrading the KJ 10 unti AESA is ready? Why add a 3rd radar type to a single fighter?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, he said J10A & B could be upgraded with AESA from the C version which will come only in the C version. If PAF wants J10 around the time MMRCA will be inducted, they have to take the B version with PESA radar. *That's the problem with the fighter, too much is still unknown to really say how capable it really will be, because there are too less official statements on it*.



bold part is the problem for India , as they dont know the capabilities of these fighters, MMRCA is not a issue with us, we know what these fighters are capable off, we will select what is good and not known by indians


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## IceCold

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> According to our military insider, China has promised to offer the PAF the J-10 with the AESA radar and the mature WS-10G engine, this is China's political duty.
> 
> He claims the deal will likely start around 2014 at the time when India has inducted Rafael, since J-10B is an older design with PESA back in years ago, so it is unlikely that Pakistan is going to take it.



If what you say is true, then this means that FC-20 would base on the C model and not B as previously rumored to be. 
Apart from the AESA radar and the Chinese power plant, are there any other differences physically or otherwise?



sancho said:


> No, he said J10A & B could be upgraded with AESA from the C version which will come only in the C version. If PAF wants J10 around the time MMRCA will be inducted, they have to take the B version with PESA radar. That's the problem with the fighter, too much is still unknown to really say how capable it really will be, because there are too less official statements on it.



There is no point in acquiring J-10 by 2014 and that too with a PESA radar. And if the earlier models are to be equipped with an AESA radar, even that does not make sense. Upgrades can be done at any time once they are available like that on the F-16s, there is no point in waiting. If PAF is waiting and if what Chinese Tiger says is true, then PAF is indeed going for the C version with local engine and an AESA radar. It makes alot of sense.


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## ChineseTiger1986

IceCold said:


> If what you say is true, then this means that FC-20 would base on the C model and not B as previously rumored to be.
> Apart from the AESA radar and the Chinese power plant, are there any other differences physically or otherwise?



No specification about the AESA, but the power plant should be around 145-155kN in afterburner.

BTW, this J-10 with code 1035 just got an AESA notch in its head, and its golden engine is definitely a new derivation of the TH engine.

But many online sources and posters labelled it as the "J-10B", which is already kinda of misleading.

And 1035 appeared in July 2011, which is much later after the finalization of the J-10B model.

But the Chinese govt should also be blamed, since they never officially told anyone what they are doing now.

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## sancho

Leviza said:


> bold part is the problem for India , as they dont know the capabilities of these fighters, MMRCA is not a issue with us, we know what these fighters are capable off, we will select what is good and not known by indians



A problem for Indians like me, who likes the J10 and wants to know more about it's capabilities. For Indian forces it is less of an issue, since they know they will have more capable fighters anyway, especially in a Indo - Pak scenario, where limited numbers of J10 doesn't make a difference anyway.




IceCold said:


> There is no point in acquiring J-10 by 2014 and that too with a PESA radar. And if the earlier models are to be equipped with an AESA radar, even that does not make sense. Upgrades can be done at any time once they are available like that on the F-16s, there is no point in waiting. If PAF is waiting and if what Chinese Tiger says is true, then PAF is indeed going for the C version with local engine and an AESA radar. It makes alot of sense.



You have to keep in mind that PAF and PLAAF have different requirements with this upgrade! PAF wants something technologically at a similar level as MKI or Rafale, while for PLAAF this is mainly a normal upgrade of capabilities for their older A versions (roughly 10 years after induction if I'm not wrong). They might not want all the features PAF wants today, because for them J10 is only their cost-effective low end, while for PAF it will be the high end.


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## SQ8

sancho said:


> A problem for Indians like me, who likes the J10 and wants to know more about it's capabilities. For Indian forces it is less of an issue, since they know they will have more capable fighters anyway, especially in a Indo - Pak scenario, where limited numbers of J10 doesn't make a difference anyway.



The main contention is that the FC-20(which will be the version that Pakistan will get) is not a concrete concept..
Whether it will be based on the J-10B or a more advanced version.
Since currently no funds exist for procuring the aircraft.

In an Indo-Pak scenario.. any J-10 variant will pose a certain threat as a capable air to air fighter with a secondary strike capability... so while on paper 36 would seem a small number.. in a combined force scale.. they would be a good punch.

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## sancho

Oscar said:


> The main contention is that the FC-20(which will be the version that Pakistan will get) is not a concrete concept..
> Whether it will be based on the J-10B or a more advanced version.
> Since currently no funds exist for procuring the aircraft.



Imo, currently not the procurement cost might be an issue, but the cost of developing certain upgrades. Take the EF as a comparable example. EF partners don't need AESA now, because they don't buy T3B version and need it just around 2020 as upgrades for their older T2s. That's why the AESA development currently is not fully funded and it is mainly left to the industry and possible export customers to fund it, if they want it earlier.
So what if PLAAF don't need AESA now and is happy with an upgraded KJ 10 or a PESA version, while PAF wants AESA to have something comparable to MKIs and Rafales, not to mention something more capable than JF 17 B2. Isn't it likely that China then wants PAF to take at least shares of the AESA development costs? Can PAF pay for it now, since they might plan with AESA only from JF 17 B3 onwards?
To be honest, I don't understand the discussion about procurement costs, J10A was offered to export countries at around $41 million dollars, even with AESA and some upgrades it would be around $60 millions, which afail is still less than the F16 B52s costs and PAF wants to have more of them anyway. I think either PAF has the money to procure more fighters, or they haven't but if they have J10B with AESA would be more capable and more cost-effective to procure than more F16s. 



Oscar said:


> In an Indo-Pak scenario.. any J-10 variant will pose a certain threat as a capable air to air fighter with a secondary strike capability... so while on paper 36 would seem a small number.. in a combined force scale.. they would be a good punch.



I disagree on that, because IAF has more capable fighter in higher numbers at the same time and the "currently known" upgrades are not that impressive to set it way ahead of JF 17 B2. I would rather have 50 x JF 17 B2 + 50 x B1 with AWACS support, than 36 x J10B with AESA, especially since both will use the same weapons anyway (in A2A and A2G).

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## IceCold

sancho said:


> You have to keep in mind that PAF and PLAAF have different requirements with this upgrade! PAF wants something technologically at a similar level as MKI or Rafale, while for PLAAF this is mainly a normal upgrade of capabilities for their older A versions (roughly 10 years after induction if I'm not wrong). They might not want all the features PAF wants today, because for them J10 is only their cost-effective low end, while for PAF it will be the high end.



The case might be but PAF has its way with getting stuff from China which turns out to be more advanced and superior then what they are using for themselves. The example of F-7PG and JF-17 to FC-1 can be taken. PLAAF might be taking it as a normal upgrade but i disagree on the notion that J-10 is a low end for them because J-10 is their first true 4th generation fighter jet which they need in numbers to replace all the third generation ( 2nd interms of chinese generation) and considering the fact that opposition has advance 4th generation jets ( India Taiwan both ). Same is the case for PAF, as you mentioned they need FC-20 to be on par or even superior to both the MKI and Rafale, since we lack numbers. It makes absolute sense for PAF to wait and see how the planned upgrades turn out to be on FC-20 because most of them will also find their way to JF-17 latter block.


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## SQ8

sancho said:


> Imo, currently not the procurement cost might be an issue, but the cost of developing certain upgrades. Take the EF as a comparable example. EF partners don't need AESA now, because they don't buy T3B version and need it just around 2020 as upgrades for their older T2s. That's why the AESA development currently is not fully funded and it is mainly left to the industry and possible export customers to fund it, if they want it earlier.
> So what if PLAAF don't need AESA now and is happy with an upgraded KJ 10 or a PESA version, while PAF wants AESA to have something comparable to MKIs and Rafales, not to mention something more capable than JF 17 B2. Isn't it likely that China then wants PAF to take at least shares of the AESA development costs? Can PAF pay for it now, since they might plan with AESA only from JF 17 B3 onwards?
> To be honest, I don't understand the discussion about procurement costs, J10A was offered to export countries at around $41 million dollars, even with AESA and some upgrades it would be around $60 millions, which afail is still less than the F16 B52s costs and PAF wants to have more of them anyway. I think either PAF has the money to procure more fighters, or they haven't but if they have J10B with AESA would be more capable and more cost-effective to procure than more F16s.
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree on that, because IAF has more capable fighter in higher numbers at the same time and the "currently known" upgrades are not that impressive to set it way ahead of JF 17 B2. I would rather have 50 x JF 17 B2 + 50 x B1 with AWACS support, than 36 x J10B with AESA, especially since both will use the same weapons anyway (in A2A and A2G).



At this point, PAF's funding is limited to paying off loans for the JF-17's, ZDK-03's and other hardware.. 
There is simply no space for funding a new fighter..or a new radar.

The JF-17's are going to stick to fighting on Pakistani turf..while aircraft like the F-16 block 52 and the Fc-20 were aimed at being able to take the fight deep into India and survive.
The increase in payload and internal space in the J-10 platform over the JF-17 offers a lot more room for heavy ECM systems along with a sizeable A2A and A2G payload.. coupled with the ability to carry it far.

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## Gandhi G in da house

How many is Pakistan buying ?


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## KRAIT

nick_indian said:


> How many is Pakistan buying ?


36 J-10B on soft loan...official confirmation...unknown...

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## sancho

IceCold said:


> PLAAF might be taking it as a normal upgrade but i disagree on the notion that J-10 is a low end for them because J-10 is their first true 4th generation fighter jet which they need in numbers to replace all the third generation ( 2nd interms of chinese generation) and considering the fact that opposition has advance 4th generation jets ( India Taiwan both ). Same is the case for PAF, as you mentioned they need FC-20 to be on par or even superior to both the MKI and Rafale, since we lack numbers. It makes absolute sense for PAF to wait and see how the planned upgrades turn out to be on FC-20 because most of them will also find their way to JF-17 latter block.



That's not correct, PLAAF has inducted Su 30 MKKs and the first J11Bs which are already 4th to 4.5 gen fighters (multi role capable, multi mode radars, modern avionics...). So they already have similar gen fighters in credible numbers and are inducting more of them to the higher end. J10B for them is just a low end multi role fighter, to complement the Flankers in a cost-effective way, similar to the F15/F16 combo for US forces. 




Oscar said:


> At this point, PAF's funding is limited to paying off loans for the JF-17's, ZDK-03's and other hardware..
> There is simply no space for funding a new fighter..or a new radar.



That's what I thought, so PAF is dependent on what upgrades China develops for the J10 now and has to take them, or remain with JF 17 and F16 to add J10C later.



Oscar said:


> The increase in payload and internal space in the J-10 platform over the JF-17 offers a lot more room for heavy ECM systems along *with a sizeable A2A and A2G payload.. coupled with the ability to carry it far.*



Agreed for the ECM systems, but not for the rest, because the J10 has actually some limitations that are similar to JF17s, especially in the deep strike role!
It has only 3 x heavy / wet stations, while the centerline station is size limited too. That means if PAF wants to integrate Raad, it either carries 1 on the centerline (if possible) with 2 fuel tanks, or the smaller centerline tank and 2 x at the inner wingstations (if the hardpoint limits makes this suitable). 
JF 17 B1 will have the same refueling probe and most likely carries Raad on the centerline with 2 x fuel tanks as well. So it offers the same deep strike capability with Raad as J10B would and by the fact that Raad offers the advantage to launch in Pakistani airspace to hit target in India, a better ECM is not needed.
Another point is A2A, J10B has 3 x wingstations, just like JF 17! So either they *both* carry:

2 x WVR missiles
2 x BVR missiles
2 x fuel tanks
(centerline is free)

or 

2 x WVR missiles
4 x BVR missiles
1 x fuel tanks on the centerline

So again, both offer the same weapon config and since the number of fuel tanks + IFR is the same it depends on which fighter has offers the higher range on internal fuel.
The J10 in general is the better fighter, but mainly because of the design and some features like bigger radar, IRST, (currently) IFR and in CAS the dedicated pod stations. But with the Block 2 upgrade of JF 17, it gets much closer to J10A and from what we know about B also to this version.

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## ziaulislam

sancho said:


> That's not correct, PLAAF has inducted Su 30 MKKs and the first J11Bs which are already 4th to 4.5 gen fighters (multi role capable, multi mode radars, modern avionics...). So they already have similar gen fighters in credible numbers and are inducting more of them to the higher end. J10B for them is just a low end multi role fighter, to complement the Flankers in a cost-effective way, similar to the F15/F16 combo for US forces.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's what I thought, so PAF is dependent on what upgrades China develops for the J10 now and has to take them, or remain with JF 17 and F16 to add J10C later.
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed for the ECM systems, but not for the rest, because the J10 has actually some limitations that are similar to JF17s, especially in the deep strike role!
> It has only 3 x heavy / wet stations, while the centerline station is size limited too. That means if PAF wants to integrate Raad, it either carries 1 on the centerline (if possible) with 2 fuel tanks, or the smaller centerline tank and 2 x at the inner wingstations (if the hardpoint limits makes this suitable).
> JF 17 B1 will have the same refueling probe and most likely carries Raad on the centerline with 2 x fuel tanks as well. So it offers the same deep strike capability with Raad as J10B would and by the fact that Raad offers the advantage to launch in Pakistani airspace to hit target in India, a better ECM is not needed.
> Another point is A2A, J10B has 3 x wingstations, just like JF 17! So either they *both* carry:
> 
> 2 x WVR missiles
> 2 x BVR missiles
> 2 x fuel tanks
> (centerline is free)
> 
> or
> 
> 2 x WVR missiles
> 4 x BVR missiles
> 1 x fuel tanks on the centerline
> 
> So again, both offer the same weapon config and since the number of fuel tanks + IFR is the same it depends on which fighter has offers the higher range on internal fuel.
> The J10 in general is the better fighter, but mainly because of the design and some features like bigger radar, IRST, (currently) IFR and in CAS the dedicated pod stations. But with the Block 2 upgrade of JF 17, it gets much closer to J10A and from what we know about B also to this version.


j-10 can carry dual missles if needed on single point. Also there are 6 points under wings for BVRs
i dont know whether under fuselage points can carry BVRs too though


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## sancho

ziaulislam said:


> j-10 can carry dual missles if needed on single point. Also there are 6 points under wings for BVRs
> i dont know whether under fuselage points can carry BVRs too though



When you check the JF 17 thread, you will see that there are speculations about the same dual launchers for JF 17 as well and no, J10 can't carry 6 x BVRs in a normal way, because it has 6 x wingstations and 2 of them will carry WVR missiles:






Replace the fuel tanks with BVR missiles and you have both loads that I mentioned in my earlier post.


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## MiG-21

> Another point is A2A, J10B has 3 x wingstations, just like JF 17! So either they both carry:
> 
> 2 x WVR missiles
> 2 x BVR missiles
> 2 x fuel tanks
> (centerline is free)
> 
> or
> 
> 2 x WVR missiles
> 4 x BVR missiles
> 1 x fuel tanks on the centerline


Actually J-10 does offer some advantage. JF-17's current block only carries 2 X BVR and 2 X WVR. 2 Under wing Wet stations are not BVR - WVR capable. Would be interesting to see if JF-17 Block 2 can achieve J-10's 4 X WVR.


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## alimobin memon

MiG-21 said:


> Actually J-10 does offer some advantage. JF-17's current block only carries 2 X BVR and 2 X WVR. 2 Under wing Wet stations are not BVR - WVR capable. Would be interesting to see if JF-17 Block 2 can achieve J-10's 4 X WVR.



We are not in war that jf17 carries 6 BVR or what bro, its a static display for consumers what it can carry. Tell me wouldn't that be awful to carry 2 BVR's for 4th gen fighter ?


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## PakShaheen79

alimobin memon said:


> We are not in war that jf17 carries 6 BVR or what bro, its a static display for consumers what it can carry. Tell me wouldn't that be awful to carry 2 BVR's for 4th gen fighter ?



They will only believe only when they will see a pic  So, don't try to convince him. Let him remain in his world.

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## sancho

MiG-21 said:


> Under wing Wet stations are not BVR - WVR capable.



Already discussed and the same would apply to J10 as well, but since it's wrong it doesn't really matter. The fact is, both have the same number of wingstations and the same limitations in terms of heavy / wet stations, that's why most weapon config will be the same, with advantages for the J10 only with LGBs + LDP. J10 is the better fighter, but not in terms of carrying capability!


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## farhan_9909

i am always in favour of release more funding for jft III with serious upgrade with 100kn.engine/AESA//more composite/more payload

and order a 2-3 squardens of j11B 2014 onward for strike role

this combination is much better

odd 80 f16
36-50 j11bs
50 jft I
100 jft 2



and later on jft III


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## IceCold

sancho said:


> That's not correct, PLAAF has inducted Su 30 MKKs and the first J11Bs which are already 4th to 4.5 gen fighters (multi role capable, multi mode radars, modern avionics...). So they already have similar gen fighters in credible numbers and are inducting more of them to the higher end. J10B for them is just a low end multi role fighter, to complement the Flankers in a cost-effective way, similar to the F15/F16 combo for US forces.



Yes Su-30 MKK was inducted back at the time but it is russian and may i add inferior to J-10 in all aspects apart from the payload capacity since its twn engine. J-11 yes it can be termed as 4.5 after the upgrades being done to it, still in all the combats against the J-10 it lost. Chinese members can verify my claim and while these fighters were initially inducted to supplement the obsolete Chinese air force and also to study them for their own fighter program. J-10 is their true 4.5th indigenous fighter. Point being its the J-10 that will form the back bone of the PLAAF and not the J-11 and certainly not the Su-30. 
Your analogy about the F-15/16 will be correct once the J-20 is inducted with J-20 being the higher end and J-10 the lower.


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## farhan_9909

sancho@

the jft 3rd and 5th hardpoint would be able to hold raad because if you open the info pool of jft

the news about increasing the wing strength and they said it is improved 200%

bt would be appliedcin jft 2 only


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## MiG-21

> Already discussed and the same would apply to J10 as well, but since it's wrong it doesn't really matter.


I know, I was in the discussion. What's the "wrong"?

And BTW - http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/1421/20041005j10bo0.jpg
6 BVRs! And there are photos floating around with dual racks. So total 10 possible BVRs? Not bad! Or is that pic a photoshop that I'm not aware of? I don't follow J-10 much.

Edit: *facepalm* Knew IT!! Chinese fanboys and their photoshops!! http://i47.tinypic.com/2qsyob8.jpg
So 4 X BVR which includes 2 underwing wet stations points, unlike the JF-17 Block 1. Then we have the dual racks in testing. So 4 BVRs now, with possible 6 with dual racks, on J-10a. Not Bad!

Edit 2: LoL... talk about unhealthy obsession
http://dcn.or.kr/files/attach/images/175/264/018/J-10 공대공 완전무장.jpg
http://bemil.chosun.com/nbrd/files/...20%C7%AA%B8%A5%20%C3%A2%B0%F8%C0%B8%B7%CE.jpg


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## Sinnerman108

IceCold said:


> Yes Su-30 MKK was inducted back at the time but it is russian and* may i add inferior to J-10 in all aspects apart from the payload capacity since its twn engine.* J-11 yes it can be termed as 4.5 after the upgrades being done to it, still in all the combats against the J-10 it lost. Chinese members can verify my claim and while these fighters were initially inducted to supplement the obsolete Chinese air force and also to study them for their own fighter program. J-10 is their true 4.5th indigenous fighter. Point being its the J-10 that will form the back bone of the PLAAF and not the J-11 and certainly not the Su-30.
> Your analogy about the F-15/16 will be correct once the J-20 is inducted with J-20 being the higher end and J-10 the lower.



Dude ! Please .....

We can F with anyone ... just don't F with the great design which is the sweetest manifestation of science.

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## IceCold

salman108 said:


> Dude ! Please .....
> 
> We can F with anyone ... just don't F with the great design which is the sweetest manifestation of science.



My apologize dominus


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## sancho

IceCold said:


> Yes Su-30 MKK was inducted back at the time but it is russian and may i add inferior to J-10 in all aspects apart from the payload capacity since its twn engine.
> J-11 yes it can be termed as 4.5 after the upgrades being done to it, still in all the combats against the J-10 it lost.



In the WVR combats, but other than that J10A is clearly inferior compared to most Flanker versions. Be it radar range, better speed, can carry more weapons, variety of weapons and longer range in general...



IceCold said:


> J-10 is their true 4.5th indigenous fighter. Point being its the J-10 that will form the back bone of the PLAAF and not the J-11 and certainly not the Su-30.
> Your analogy about the F-15/16 will be correct once the J-20 is inducted with J-20 being the higher end and J-10 the lower



J10A is a 4th gen fighter and will be upgraded to 4.5 gen with the B version and btw, the backbone of an air forces is always the less capable fighter in higher numbers! F16 backbone, F15 high end, J10 backbone, Flanker varients high end, JF 17 backbone, J10B/F16 high end, F35 back bone, F22 high end...

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## SQ8

sancho said:


> In the WVR combats, but other than that J10A is clearly inferior compared to most Flanker versions. Be it radar range, better speed, can carry more weapons, variety of weapons and longer range in general...
> 
> 
> 
> J10A is a 4th gen fighter and will be upgraded to 4.5 gen with the B version and btw, the backbone of an air forces is always the less capable fighter in higher numbers! F16 backbone, F15 high end, J10 backbone, Flanker varients high end, JF 17 backbone, J10B/F16 high end, F35 back bone, F22 high end...



Each fighter is better suited to its weight class(Hence the MMRCA was the *medium* multirole combat aircraft)..
Otherwise an upgraded Su-30MKI would do it all for the IAF. Each AF has its own requirements, drawn up by its key decision planners ..in the case of the PAF its the ASR or Air Staff requirement. 
Back in the 80's.. the PAF had an ideal ASR for a new fighter it needed, even before the F-16.. but when the F-16 came along, it was so well suited to PAF's ASR that it was nothing short of ideal for it.
Which is why the PAF's love affair with the aircraft has been that long, it was everything the PAF wanted and more.

Today, the JF-17 is one aircraft _designed around_ an ASR. It meets all the requirements the PAF planners set for an aircraft to fit a particular slot in the PAF warmachine to carry out particular tasks. At the same time, the F-16's in the PAF have particular goals and tasks set out for them(the sq assigned to them having their own war time goals.
The last ASR niche(for a 2018 timeline) was to be fulfilled by the FC-20(_since the other ideals..the Rafale and Eurofighter were either too expensive or came with too many strings attached_) ,since whatever requirements were set by the PAF after assessing all future adversaries and threats, and after assessing its own possible financial limitations . 
This FC-20 was based on taking the basic J-10 airframe, and along the lines of the F-7PG ..making improvements to suit the PAF.
As time went on, and the JF-17 came up with the DSI intake.. this FC-20 concept mutated into the J-10B with much more improved capabilities thanks to a (in the pipeline) new engine, radar, avionics, ECM, airframe changes etc.
As of now, the FC-20 is still a fluid concept due to funding restrictions.. however.. PAF representatives and engineers at Chengdu and otherwise have access to the J-10B design section..and give their input, their preferences, their ideas to keep refining that concept(_which the Chinese appreciate since it ends up helping them have an improved product for their own use as well_)..
Concepts that would include dual rails, further RCS reduction, Improved ECM, Improved man-machine interface..etc.

Now.. such a fighter, improved from the basic J-10B ...may end up being more potent many scenario's of A2A combat than a larger sukhoi due to many factors that effect A2A engagements..from Radar detection range, RCS, Missile range, Energy efficiency.. etc. 
BUT, can the same aircraft perform as good as the large sukhoi in many other parameters of range, weapons payload, survivability..etc? NO, each aircraft is designed to match a forte, a niche.. no matter how many permutations of the "role" tag are put in their. A Rafale may be able to engage A2A and A2G targets simultaneously.. but it cannot do so 1500km deep into Enemy territory without compromising on payload, speed and fighting ability...something that the Sukhoi -30 series excels at.

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## ziaulislam

MiG-21 said:


> Actually J-10 does offer some advantage. JF-17's current block only carries 2 X BVR and 2 X WVR. 2 Under wing Wet stations are not BVR - WVR capable. Would be interesting to see if JF-17 Block 2 can achieve J-10's 4 X WVR.


it has been answered five dozen times that JF-17 carries 4 BVRs but you troll,nothing surprising though
same goes for j-10


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## sancho

Oscar said:


> Now.. such a fighter, improved from the basic J-10B ...may end up being more potent many scenario's of A2A combat than a larger sukhoi due to many factors that effect A2A engagements..from Radar detection range, RCS, Missile range, Energy efficiency.. etc.



That's the reason why I consider it as the main threat for IAF in this decade (operated with PLAAF), because with a good AESA and some other upgrades for A2A combats, it would be a very good base with upgraded J11Bs on the higher end and would form a very capable counterpart to Rafale / Super 30 combo. However, too much is still unclear about the J10B and recent infos from Chinese members don't look that promising to me.

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## MiG-21

> it has been answered five dozen times without proof that JF-17 carries 4 BVRs but you troll,nothing surprising though


Fixed!



> same goes for j-10


I found just one pic of J-10 with the 2 wet station hardpoints loaded with Pili-12/SD-10. But the pic is way back from 2004, and dunno if its photo shopped or not. http://image02.wiki.livedoor.jp/n/2/namacha2/ba24a04644817258.jpg But still I gave it the benefit of the doubt and I went with my previous reply where I said 4 X BVR normal and 6 X BVR with dual racks under testing. So don't accuse me of trolling. But it does leave one wondering why there aren't any other pics like the one before with wet stations loaded with Pili-12, while there are plenty of dual rack pics.

About my reply in the previous page, my apologies, should have been 4 X BVR , not 4 X WVR. I actually meant BVR but somehow typed WVR.


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## TaimiKhan

MiG-21 said:


> Fixed!
> 
> 
> I found just one pic of J-10 with the 2 wet station hardpoints loaded with Pili-12/SD-10. But the pic is way back from 2006, and dunno if its photo shopped or not. http://image2.sina.com.cn/jc/p/2006-06-28/U1220P27T1D380005F3DT20060628094818.jpg But still I gave it the benefit of the doubt and I went with my previous reply where I said 4 X BVR normal and 6 X BVR with dual racks under testing. So don't accuse me of trolling. But it does leave one wondering why there aren't any other pics like the one before with wet stations loaded with Pili-12, while there are plenty of dual rack pics.
> 
> About my reply in the previous page, my apologies, should have been 4 X BVR , not 4 X WVR. I actually meant BVR but somehow typed WVR.



In the pic you gave the link, one missile is PL-12, while the other one on the middle hard point is PL-11 missile. 

Plus, from your post i don't get what you are trying to say. what is your point which you are trying to make.

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## MiG-21

Oh.. thanks! They look so alike. 

I'm just looking for a pic with PL-12 loaded on to the innermost underwing hardpoint(a.k.a the wet station hardpoint), like the one in the above pic. That pic was taken in 2004, long before PL-12 became operational in 2007. So looking for a recent pic.


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## ziaulislam

if we strictly go to PLAAF, the numbers they have is more important issue for indians..
like over 250 j-10s and as many Su-30s..and God knows how much to come


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## ziaulislam

to me 
china has only two adversaries
india and taiwan

because of economical US-china may ultimately end up as countries with decent relationship


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## Irfan Baloch

@Storm force

your postings have no relevance to this thread. what you say maybe true but has nothing to do with PAF's future procurement. 
I am sure you wont be leeching the thread and dragging the discussion to something out of the scope of this thread.

thanks for your cooperation


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## Storm Force

Sorry ..........should have carried discussion in private message to icecold


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## haviZsultan

Its good news if theres a new deal to get J10's. 

But isn't it better to get jf17's. We literally have hundreds of j10's we don't know what to do with.


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## Irfan Baloch

haviZsultan said:


> Its good news if theres a new deal to get J10's.
> 
> But isn't it better to get jf17's. *We literally have hundreds of j10'*s we don't know what to do with.



we do?

who do you mean by "we"?

China or Pakistan?

I think you typed the planr type by mistake


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## Peaceful Civilian

Self delete


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## Bilal587

im tired watching these kind of thread.


when jf 17 or j 10 arrives ???


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## ahussains

Nice I like this


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## ziaulislam

Bilal587 said:


> im tired watching these kind of thread.
> 
> 
> when jf 17 or j 10 arrives ???


well its schedule is 2015 . unlikely we get before that


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## India defense

Dont buy too many Chinese stuff.....you will be sorry in future.......I am suffering with some chinese stuff myself.....they are junk

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## Safriz

China Defense Blog: J-10B in operational evaluation

Pakistan wants J-10b and that isnt ready yet..... Still undergoing tests...


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## Safriz

The delay in mass production and export of j-10b is connected with development of chinese ws-10 engine.
The PLAAF currently doesnt use ws-10 engine in any if their main aircrafts,as none can accomodate ws-10,. Only j-10b can be fitted with ws-10 engine.
The previous engine manufacturing facility was having priblems in mass producing ws-10 engines,so the production was recently moved to new location in guangzou.
Same fascility will produce the ws-15 engine for chinese top dog the J-20.
We have seen recent videos of j-10b being tested with new enginr,alongside j-20 . PLAAF is comfortably using j-10a and in no urgency to replace them,so dont need to rush the mass production of ws-10 engine.
It is plausible that mass production of ws-10 is tied with whenever ws-15 engine matures and is certified for use in j-20,and we may see j-10b and j-20 entering final production together,and that may be a few years away.


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## Safriz

WS15


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## Storm Force

So to summarise

J10 FOR PAF may come in 2015 

IF 

The chinease succesfully induct a chinease engine on FC20 fully test this and it meets PAF ASR ....

That is 4 years away i think


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## Safriz

Storm Force said:


> So to summarise
> 
> J10 FOR PAF may come in 2015
> 
> IF
> 
> The chinease succesfully induct a chinease engine on FC20 fully test this and it meets PAF ASR ....
> 
> That is 4 years away i think



Now Chinese members can have a better idea on the matter but thats what i could find out after reading many news resources and forums.
Looks like MMRCA and J-10B will come together.


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## ziaulislam

well Chinese sources that i have read up claim that WS-10 is already ready..
regardlessly fc-20 isnt going to come before 2015..there are logistic issues, funds and other things besides whether j-10b is ready or not 

i think at moment PAF is fully engaged in jf-17 induction,which has slow downed recently.


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## no_koadsheding_plz

India defense said:


> Dont buy too many Chinese stuff.....you will be sorry in future.......I am suffering with some chinese stuff myself.....they are junk


 
haha.. do uu expect to get something literally for free and then to compete headon with top class goods from japan.usa/gemany? 

its military forum what chinbese items has pissssed u ? 
i hope ur items are elcheapo ones.. anbd i have the cheapo cheapo huawei set which i bought for 12 USD and its working awesome for the last two years .. i m using chinese wifi router and adsl modem which stays 24/7 in power and it has been so since 3 years no problkem whatsoever.. i have a chinese made little 70cc bike and it has done me 60,000km still stock engine wheels .. ... and the list goes long way.. can india/pakistan produce so,ething comparable at same cost no..a big no.. stop comparing a cottage industry produced items with some of the state of the art modern factory produced goods.. 

enjoy rusky 'items' ... and enjoy their excellant aftersales support..


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## alimobin memon

no_koadsheding_plz said:


> haha.. do uu expect to get something literally for free and then to compete headon with top class goods from japan.usa/gemany?
> 
> its military forum what chinbese items has pissssed u ?
> i hope ur items are elcheapo ones.. anbd i have the cheapo cheapo huawei set which i bought for 12 USD and its working awesome for the last two years .. i m using chinese wifi router and adsl modem which stays 24/7 in power and it has been so since 3 years no problkem whatsoever.. i have a chinese made little 70cc bike and it has done me 60,000km still stock engine wheels .. ... and the list goes long way.. can india/pakistan produce so,ething comparable at same cost no..a big no.. stop comparing a cottage industry produced items with some of the state of the art modern factory produced goods..
> 
> enjoy rusky 'items' ... and enjoy their excellant aftersales support..


He is probably referring to chinese low cost mobiles and Electronics ... he is child that's why he doesn't know that in 3000 RS you will not get original IPHONE if you know what i mean't.

Chinese Products especially military ... are cheap because of its currency rate ... like jf17 maybe is cheaper but same plane if any west who have new aircraft manufacturing capability would've sold it atleast 30-35 mn$ example gripen


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## Storm Force

Alimoben

Gripens Starting price is $50m each 

Without weapons

Gripen comes with technology that does not exist on JFT like full composite material and ability to use any weapon in europe or USA ... its cockpit and sensor suite is as good as any late 4th generation fighter ..

unfair comprison today


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## TaimiKhan

Storm Force said:


> Alimoben
> 
> Gripens Starting price is $50m each
> 
> Without weapons
> 
> Gripen comes with technology that does not exist on JFT like full composite material and ability to use any weapon in europe or USA ... its cockpit and sensor suite is as good as any late 4th generation fighter ..
> 
> unfair comprison today



Storm Force,you have again started on your stupid troll fests. 

Composite material doesn't means there is any issue in the capability of a fighter jet, nor it is the important factor to make a fighter jet superior or inferior. 

And if source codes are provided any US & European weapon system can be fully integrated with the JF-17. Same case with Gripen, since source codes have been provided, any weapon can be integrated with it. Told a thousand times, but hard for some Indians to understand,JF-17 comes with western MIL-STD protocols / standards, meaning anything which uses these protocols can get integrated with JF-17, all we need is source codes.

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## VCheng

TaimiKhan said:


> ........JF-17 comes with western MIL-STD protocols / standards, meaning anything which uses these protocols can get integrated with JF-17, *all we need is source codes*.



.... and how would you get them? Easier said than done, quite often.


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## Safriz

VCheng said:


> .... and how would you get them? Easier said than done, quite often.


 
You missed the whole point...read again.

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## alimobin memon

VCheng said:


> .... and how would you get them? Easier said than done, quite often.



Our jf17 is programmed on C++ , whenever necessary any1 can update the source as necessary ... when deal of any weapon integration on plane is made ... first thing to do is add that class or function of program to jf17 support of weapons source code.


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## Sinnerman108

alimobin memon said:


> Our jf17 is programmed on C++ , whenever necessary any1 can update the source as necessary ... when deal of any weapon integration on plane is made ... first thing to do is add that class or function of program to jf17 support of weapons source code.



And like so you have successfully F'ed Science.


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## alimobin memon

salman108 said:


> And like so you have successfully F'ed Science.



please correct me if I was wrong


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## Donatello

VCheng said:


> .... and how would you get them? Easier said than done, quite often.




What a one liner VCheng.....(Pun intended)

no, seriously, where did he say that we need to integrate them? The current array of JF-17 is full of options....from WVR to BVR and Cruise missiles. Like why would we want AIM120, when SD10A and B are clearly available?


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## TaimiKhan

VCheng said:


> .... and how would you get them? Easier said than done, quite often.



Sir, i never said we need the source codes nor was the discussion abt it, i was just making a point to the kid that if provided with source codes integration can be done on the JF-17, since it has the capability to get integrated with western weapons since it uses western protocols. I am talking about the capability of the jet. 

Hope you get my point.

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## MehrotraPrince

TaimiKhan said:


> Storm Force,you have again started on your stupid troll fests.
> 
> Composite material doesn't means there is any issue in the capability of a fighter jet, nor it is the important factor to make a fighter jet superior or inferior.
> 
> And if source codes are provided any US & European weapon system can be fully integrated with the JF-17. Same case with Gripen, since source codes have been provided, any weapon can be integrated with it. Told a thousand times, but hard for some Indians to understand,JF-17 comes with western MIL-STD protocols / standards, meaning anything which uses these protocols can get integrated with JF-17, all we need is source codes.



Yes composite material does make a fighter jet superior, how you define capability of fighter jets? To detect other jets earlier, not to be detected by other jets within certain range, to carry more weapon load, ease in maintenance, etc. Composite materials does most of it if not all, they reduce fighter jet radar cross-section, reduce its weight thus increasing their weapon carrying capacity, easier to maintain, less fatigue in structures.

Sorry to contradict but no one provides you weapon and especially source code for free, major R&D costs are involved so they will surely charge hefty money.

You still think that this will not increase cost of any fighter jet if you modify them with above?

Well cost will increase and so will capability, no sane person contradicts that you can't modify your JF-17, but that will greatly increase the cost.

Lastly I don't understand how easily many persons compare one plane with another? Every fighter jet is designed for certain specific purpose, with limited resource, money, knowledge etc.

I like J10, its a good fighter jet, may be many thing are not in public domain but surely China has done a tremendous job


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## ziaulislam

MehrotraPrince said:


> Yes composite material does make a fighter jet superior, how you define capability of fighter jets? To detect other jets earlier, not to be detected by other jets within certain range, to carry more weapon load, ease in maintenance, etc. Composite materials does most of it if not all, they reduce fighter jet radar cross-section, reduce its weight thus increasing their weapon carrying capacity, easier to maintain, less fatigue in structures.
> 
> Sorry to contradict but no one provides you weapon and especially source code for free, major R&D costs are involved so they will surely charge hefty money.
> 
> You still think that this will not increase cost of any fighter jet if you modify them with above?
> 
> Well cost will increase and so will capability, no sane person contradicts that you can't modify your JF-17, but that will greatly increase the cost.
> 
> Lastly I don't understand how easily many persons compare one plane with another? Every fighter jet is designed for certain specific purpose, with limited resource, money, knowledge etc.
> 
> I like J10, its a good fighter jet, may be many thing are not in public domain but surely China has done a tremendous job


most people say that composite only helps in making jet lighter and has little role in stealth..but a big role in price


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## araz

VCheng said:


> .... and how would you get them? Easier said than done, quite often.


Sarkar
You heard the tale all night only to ask in the morning who Laila was? Please read his full response first. Anyways How are you and where have you been.
Araz


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## VCheng

TaimiKhan said:


> Sir, i never said we need the source codes nor was the discussion abt it, i was just making a point to the kid that if provided with source codes integration can be done on the JF-17, since it has the capability to get integrated with western weapons since it uses western protocols. I am talking about the capability of the jet.
> 
> Hope you get my point.



Ah I see, the jet is capable of integration *IF *source codes are made available. Got it.



araz said:


> Sarkar
> You heard the tale all night only to ask in the morning who Laila was? Please read his full response first. Anyways How are you and where have you been.
> Araz



LOL! Who is this Laila? 

I am fine, AlHamdoLillah. (I still remember our long overdue discussion on a certain topic, delayed due to my laziness.  )


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## sancho

MehrotraPrince said:


> Yes composite material does make a fighter jet superior, how you define capability of fighter jets?



No it doesn't, it's just one part that can add advantages and the capability of a fighter won't be changed much either as well. Gripen has a lower RCS because of of using composites but mainly RAM coatings, which JF 17 B1 doesn't seem to have yet. On the other side, it offers the same multi role and weapon carrying capability as the JF 17 too. Both can be used for interceptions or CAS, while the Block 2 upgrade of JF 17 will make it equal to Gripen C/D in terms of avionics, mid air refuelling too. 
Both are totally comparable fighters, but the one is more advanced by design and developments, which results into higher costs again and that was against PAFs requirements to have a cost-effective backbone fighter.

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## MehrotraPrince

sancho said:


> No it doesn't, it's just one part that can add advantages and the capability of a fighter won't be changed much either as well. Gripen has a lower RCS because of of using composites but mainly RAM coatings, which JF 17 B1 doesn't seem to have yet. On the other side, it offers the same multi role and weapon carrying capability as the JF 17 too. Both can be used for interceptions or CAS, while the Block 2 upgrade of JF 17 will make it equal to Gripen C/D in terms of avionics, mid air refuelling too.
> Both are totally comparable fighters, but the one is more advanced by design and developments, which results into higher costs again and that was against PAFs requirements to have a cost-effective backbone fighter.


 
First thing I was not comparing Gripen and JF-17 because I don't believe in comparing aircraft's and I have cited the reason in my previous post, second thing I was just talking about Composite materials and remaining things about aircraft being static. You yourself stated that " it's just one part that can add advantages" then contradicts by saying that "capability of a fighter won't be changed much either", how after increase in payload, capability of aircraft not increase? If two aircraft's are same on every parameters except payload then not just for me but for others also one with higher payload will be considered superior because composite materials solve many problems starting from manufacturing to ease in maintenance.

Lets come to what you compared about two different aircraft's built for different purposes: Multi-role capacity of Gripen C/D is far better than present JF17 Block 1 (in terms of range, payload, types of weapons, radars among few) and weapon carrying capacity of Gripen C/D is 5300 Kg while JF-17 block 1 is just just 3795 Kg, if you doubt then check it from their websites i.e. Saab's and from jf-17.com website, so your second claim is false.

Third thing I am no astrologer so can't say whether one aircraft in development stage will be at par or will be superior to Gripen C/D.


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## sancho

MehrotraPrince said:


> second thing I was just talking about Composite materials and remaining things about aircraft being static. You yourself stated that " it's just one part that can add advantages" then contradicts by saying that "capability of a fighter won't be changed much either"



Not really, I said composites alone don't change much at the capability of the fighter, as it is just one part of advantages. Add it with RAM coatings, ducted intakes and other signature reduction features and you have an advantage at RCS. Increase the engine thrust besides the weight reduction and you have a dramatically improved TWR... 



MehrotraPrince said:


> If two aircraft's are same on every parameters except payload then not just for me but for others also one with higher payload will be considered superior because composite materials solve many problems starting from manufacturing to ease in maintenance.



First of all, a higher payload must not be the result of composites materials, but of any airfame strenghtening or thrust upgrades to the engine. Secondly, you are highly mistaken that the payload tells you how capable a fighter is, because it tells you nothing about the number of hardpoints, how many heavy and wet stations the fighter has and what weight limits these stations have. The Eurofighter for example has a payload of 7500Kg with 13 x hardpoints, which looks great on paper and for fanboys, but in reality the hardpoint layout was desiged for A2A operations mainly and therefor it has a lot of operational limitations in other roles (no dedicated pod stations, which occupies an important heavy / wet station in strike roles, the centerline station is highly size limited, the use of cruise, stand off or anti ship missiles is limited to just 2 stations, which leaves only a single possible config that offers very limited range...). The Gripen NG can carry more weapons, especially in deep strike config than the EF, although it has 1500Kg less payload and just 10 x hardpoints!




MehrotraPrince said:


> Lets come to what you compared about two different aircraft's built for different purposes: Multi-role capacity of Gripen C/D is far better than present JF17 Block 1...so your second claim is false.



Again wrong, because you must compare Gripen A/B and it's capabilities to JF 17 Block 1, or as I did, Gripen C/D to JF 17 Block 2, because these are the versions at a common tech and capability level and when you do that, you will see that the differences are by far not as bad as you think!



MehrotraPrince said:


> Third thing I am no astrologer so can't say whether one aircraft in development stage will be at par or will be superior to Gripen C/D.



You don't have to, there are a lot of infos already known about the Block 2 upgrade, check the JF 17 info pool.

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## araz

VCheng said:


> Ah I see, the jet is capable of integration *IF *source codes are made available. Got it.
> 
> 
> 
> LOL! Who is this Laila?
> 
> I am fine, AlHamdoLillah. (I still remember our long overdue discussion on a certain topic, delayed due to my laziness.  )



Laila as in Laila Majnoon.
You are welcome to contact me when ever you want .
Regards
Araz


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## Manticore

MehrotraPrince said:


> JF17 Block 1 (in terms of range, payload, types of weapons, radars among few) and weapon carrying capacity of Gripen C/D is 5300 Kg while JF-17 block 1 is just just 3795 Kg, if you doubt then check it from their websites i.e. Saab's and from jf-17.com website, .



jf17.com is not a good updated source

specs of blk1 -- blk2 is on its way

http://i.imgur.com/lc23o.png
http://i.imgur.com/360Za.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/RsYlX.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/vMojW.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/DjPSE.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Uz7Xk.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/5qMEz.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/1ZRDj.jpg

http://i47.tinypic.com/2e240er.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/0QHaN.jpg[
http://i.imgur.com/k0Ivr.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/wUjov.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Uz7Xk.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/kSWmW.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/LnIZj.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/vu4uE.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/E72Rq.jpg















*specs taken from dubai air show presentations and jf-17 brochures 

*the conditions ,parameters under which climb rate / thrust to wt etc have been evaluated might not be standardised or fully disclosed

*All the values ive posted are from open published sources , so if there are confusions , its upto the companies to clear up

*..... however jft blk1 is not that obsolete as you suspect .. its better than gripenA & thats why i didnt use gripenA's specs.. I used a somewhat comparable block's specs

* we dont know the exact RCS of jft ... If jft was a canards fighters , some people wouldve jumped up and down saying it has greater rcs due to canards

* we dont know the wing loading of the fighter
[ a ground attack role fighter generally has a higher wing loading -
low wing loading is for performing at higher altitudes---multirole aircraft has to find a proper balance..]

* we dont know the AoA of jft -- f-18 has one of the highest values .. and jft would be comparable 
[prominent lerx/strakes---> upto 50% increase in max lift , low/moderate swept wing---> better at lower speed performance , spin resistance etc ]

* methods of rcs reduction is a natural step forwards and hopefully would be employed in blk2 along with other gadgets we are reading about in the jft info pool


Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/air-wa...nard-non-canard-fighters-2.html#ixzz1yRDYa5ke

http://www.robotechresearch.com/rpg/vehicles/ebsis/gripen/gripen.htm
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/aircraft/fighter/gripen/








credits sancho


> TWRs
> 
> Afaik a good way to calculate the TWR is:
> 
> Thrust in kN / G (Earth surface gravitational field strength of 9.807 m/s²)
> 
> => / emptyweight + internal fuel => TWR
> 
> 
> With the figures you gave in your comparision of JF 17 and Gripen, it would be like this:
> 
> JF 17 B1:
> 
> 84,5/ 9,8 = 8622
> 
> 6411+2300 = 8711
> 
> 8622 / 8711 = 0.99 (rounded to the 2nd digit)
> 
> 
> If we take the specs from PAC Kamra site, we have to take 14520lb (6586Kg) emptyweight to account, which changes the results to 0.97 (rounded to the 2nd digit)
> 
> 
> Same way for Gripen C:
> 
> 80,5/ 9,8 = 8214
> 
> 6800+2270 = 9070
> 
> 8214 / 9070 = 0.91 (rounded to the 2nd digit)






However lets come back to the topic of j-10

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## MehrotraPrince

ANTIBODY said:


> jf17.com is not a good updated source
> 
> specs of blk1 -- blk2 is on its way



Thank you for your information but sir according to your data,

External load carrying capacity of Gripen C/D should be = Maximum take off weight - Empty weight - internal fuel capacity
that gives 14000 - 6800 - 2270 = 4930 kg

Similarly External load carrying capacity of JF 17 block 1 should be = 12700 - 6411 - 2300 = 3989 Kg

while if you visit Gripens official website then you will find that
External load carrying capacity of Gripen C/D = 14100 - 6800 - 2000 = 5300 Kg


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## IceCold

ANTIBODY said:


> jf17.com is not a good updated source
> 
> specs of blk1 -- blk2 is on its way
> 
> http://i.imgur.com/lc23o.png
> http://i.imgur.com/360Za.jpg
> http://i.imgur.com/RsYlX.jpg
> http://i.imgur.com/vMojW.jpg
> http://i.imgur.com/DjPSE.jpg
> http://i.imgur.com/Uz7Xk.jpg
> http://i.imgur.com/5qMEz.jpg
> http://i.imgur.com/1ZRDj.jpg
> 
> http://i47.tinypic.com/2e240er.jpg
> http://i.imgur.com/0QHaN.jpg[
> http://i.imgur.com/k0Ivr.jpg
> http://i.imgur.com/wUjov.jpg
> http://i.imgur.com/Uz7Xk.jpg
> http://i.imgur.com/kSWmW.jpg
> http://i.imgur.com/LnIZj.jpg
> http://i.imgur.com/vu4uE.jpg
> http://i.imgur.com/E72Rq.jpg



Based on the facts above, JF-17 is actually superior to JAS Gripen apart from the payload capacity. There isnt much difference in radar range in up look detection and down look detection is actually better. 
And this is block 1 that we are comparing with the C/D Gripen, block 2 will actually surpass it in all aspects.

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## VCheng

^^^ How can the JF-17 have a claimed climb rate of 250 m/s which is 15,000 meters per minute compared to 5,500 meters per minute for the Grippen, when their T:W ratios are not all that different?


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## Irfan Baloch

VCheng said:


> ^^^ How can the JF-17 have a claimed climb rate of 250 m/s which is 15,000 meters per minute compared to 5,500 meters per minute for the Grippen, when their T:W ratios are not all that different?



maybe because of max take-off weight of JF-17 is lower but yea I see what you are saying.. JF-17 seems to have x3 the rate of climb if we read 250 m/s for JF-17 vs 92 m/s for Grippen correctly .. 

maybe .. the key words are max climb rate for JF-17 vs .. climb rate at sea level for Grippen


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## VCheng

Irfan Baloch said:


> maybe because of max take-off weight of JF-17 is lower but yea I see what you are saying.. JF-17 seems to have x3 the rate of climb if we read 250 m/s for JF-17 vs 92 m/s for Grippen correctly ..
> 
> maybe .. the key words are max climb rate for JF-17 vs .. climb rate at sea level for Grippen



That could be the explanation.

Just for comparison, an F-16 has about 250 m/s max climb rate. Does the JF-17 match that?

I think the Gripen is comparable too for this parameter.


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## Donatello

I think the climb rate here is too low....

Aerospaceweb.org | Aircraft Museum - JAS 39 Gripen

This link gives the 15,240m/min........

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## Nishan_101

Although if they did used the composites and along with RD-93B and Retractable in Flight refueling probe and PAC done JV on developing FLIR along with the present IRST Pod. Then it will have much better performance then what is know. And after the flight of PT-06 in 2006 they can move towards a dual seat of this aircraft and finalize it in 2008 to enter into production.

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## alimobin memon

Nishan_101 said:


> Although if they did used the composites and along with RD-93B and Retractable in Flight refueling probe and PAC done JV on developing FLIR along with the present IRST Pod. Then it will have much better performance then what is know. And after the flight of PT-06 in 2006 they can move towards a dual seat of this aircraft and finalize it in 2008 to enter into production.


Flir can be added on pod ?


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## Arsalan

IceCold said:


> Based on the facts above, JF-17 is actually superior to JAS Gripen apart from the payload capacity. There isnt much difference in radar range in up look detection and down look detection is actually better.
> And this is block 1 that we are comparing with the C/D Gripen, block 2 will actually surpass it in all aspects.



i have read these details a number of time but really am kind of confused on some points, the JFT is said to have ferry range of 3482 Km and a maximum extended range with external tanks at 3000Km, how is this possible? am i confusing the ferry range and Extended range? i mean, how can normal ferry range be greater then range with external tanks?

i also don't understand how can we we say that based on these JFT is superior to Grippen. they are on par at best. for example,
Grippen have better payload, JFT have more range, Grippen have more speed and better T/W ratio and JFT can gain more height. in radar, Grippen have more up-look range and JFT have better down-look range. both carry almost similarly capable weapons and Grippen can carry one more then JFT.

PLEASE, this is not a remark but a question and will appreciate is someone can tell me how we can say the JFT is proved better.

for me, both of these are on par as for now but the new block might well see improvements in JFT.

and yes, we can not forget the Grippen-NG EW suite! need to develop something comparable as well and not much is know about JFT EW capabilities.

regards!

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## alimobin memon

arsalanaslam123 said:


> i have read these details a number of time but really am kind of confused on some points, the JFT is said to have ferry range of 3482 Km and a maximum extended range with external tanks at 3000Km, how is this possible? am i confusing the ferry range and Extended range? i mean, how can normal ferry range be greater then range with external tanks?
> 
> i also don't understand how can we we say that based on these JFT is superior to Grippen. they are on par at best. for example,
> Grippen have better payload, JFT have more range, Grippen have more speed and better T/W ratio and JFT can gain more height. in radar, Grippen have more up-look range and JFT have better down-look range. both carry almost similarly capable weapons and Grippen can carry one more then JFT.
> 
> PLEASE, this is not a remark but a question and will appreciate is someone can tell me how we can say the JFT is proved better.
> 
> for me, both of these are on par as for now but the new block might well see improvements in JFT.
> 
> and yes, we can not forget the Grippen-NG EW suite! need to develop something comparable as well and not much is know about JFT EW capabilities.
> 
> regards!


Jf17 T/w ratio is greater than 1 , the t/W ratio found in internet is incorrect . EW capability has proven that Jf17 can jam F16 BLK 15 of pakistan , Combat radius is greater than f16 which is good that means we can attack any target far than the f16's mission range.
Fact is that China , Pakistan currency is not very high that's why our product cost are cheaper, Jf17 if was built by any west could not have been less than 40mn$ , you see russia Even SU35BM i think that is the only fighter better than typhoon and rafale or living legend to fight against F22 and F35 whil'st Even F15 SE is more than 90mn $ . Not to drag just to tell you PAF friend he is engineer told me that you just wait and watch, there are somethings that on internet people project we will have are already in Pakistan.


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## T-Rex

alimobin memon said:


> Not to drag just to tell you PAF friend he is engineer told me that you just wait and watch, there are somethings that on internet people project we will have are already in Pakistan.


*
Would you please explain what that means. Does it mean that PAF has something that we don't expect it to have?*


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## IceCold

arsalanaslam123 said:


> i have read these details a number of time but really am kind of confused on some points, the JFT is said to have ferry range of 3482 Km and a maximum extended range with external tanks at 3000Km, how is this possible? am i confusing the ferry range and Extended range? i mean, how can normal ferry range be greater then range with external tanks?
> 
> i also don't understand how can we we say that based on these JFT is superior to Grippen. they are on par at best. for example,
> Grippen have better payload, JFT have more range, Grippen have more speed and better T/W ratio and JFT can gain more height. in radar, Grippen have more up-look range and JFT have better down-look range. both carry almost similarly capable weapons and Grippen can carry one more then JFT.
> 
> PLEASE, this is not a remark but a question and will appreciate is someone can tell me how we can say the JFT is proved better.
> 
> for me, both of these are on par as for now but the new block might well see improvements in JFT.
> 
> and yes, we can not forget the Grippen-NG EW suite! need to develop something comparable as well and not much is know about JFT EW capabilities.
> 
> regards!



I am not the correct person to answer this, perhaps you should direct it towards antibody. I based my argument solely on his post mentioned above in which he has made a comparison. The reason was that Indians here try to make us believe that Gripen is a class or should i say world apart from the JF-17 in terms of capability, yet when we see an actual comparison being made, both fighters match equally. 
There is no information regarding the specs on the EW suite JF-17 is using so cannot make a comparison with the Gripen NG but based on how fast the Chinese are making progress interms of hardware and software, its not that hard to make a speculation about the capabilities of the EW suite the JF-17 would be using.

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## rohailmalhi

alimobin memon said:


> Jf17 T/w ratio is greater than 1 , the t/W ratio found in internet is incorrect . EW capability has proven that Jf17 can jam F16 BLK 15 of pakistan , Combat radius is greater than f16 which is good that means we can attack any target far than the f16's mission range.
> Fact is that China , Pakistan currency is not very high that's why our product cost are cheaper, Jf17 if was built by any west could not have been less than 40mn$ , you see russia Even SU35BM i think that is the only fighter better than typhoon and rafale or living legend to fight against F22 and F35 whil'st Even F15 SE is more than 90mn $ . Not to drag just to tell you PAF friend he is engineer told me that you just wait and watch, there are somethings that on internet people project we will have are already in Pakistan.



Kindly donot disclose anything on internet...........


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## IceCold

T-Rex said:


> *
> Would you please explain what that means. Does it mean that PAF has something that we don't expect it to have?*



While i cannot comment on his post and on what basis have he made that comment but Isn't it always the case not just with PAF but the whole Pakistan army. Things we or the world does not expect us to have, we suddenly have. for e.g when Babur was test fired.

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## T-Rex

IceCold said:


> While i cannot comment on his post and on what basis have he made that comment but Isn't it always the case not just with PAF but the whole Pakistan army. Things we or the world does not expect us to have, we suddenly have. for e.g when Babur was test fired.


*
At this stage, only one thing will surprise me and that is stealth capability. I think Pakistan has a long way to go before it can master stealth technology. Pakistan has not yet even begun to develop its own jet engine, let alone stealth technology.*


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## TaimiKhan

T-Rex said:


> *
> At this stage, only one thing will surprise me and that is stealth capability. I think Pakistan has a long way to go before it can master stealth technology. Pakistan has not yet even begun to develop its own jet engine, let alone stealth technology.*



Jet engine has nothing to do with a country having experience in stealth. 

Stealthiness of an aircraft can be achieved through different means, and Pakistan has some experience in some of these techniques, but yeah designing an aircraft based on the stealth platforms or like stealth platforms F-117, B-2 etc is something which we lack. 

But with the passage of time with collaboration of Chinese, we can train our engineers who are able to do their work in designing stealth aerial platforms.

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## fatman17

IceCold said:


> While i cannot comment on his post and on what basis have he made that comment but Isn't it always the case not just with PAF but the whole Pakistan army. Things we or the world does not expect us to have, we suddenly have. for e.g when Babur was test fired.



every country has their "Skunk Works" departments where experiments can sometimes yield un-expected results!

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## alimobin memon

Nothing to disclose ... Indeed I am sorry. But something is Fishi Fishi


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## alimobin memon

TaimiKhan said:


> Jet engine has nothing to do with a country having experience in stealth.
> 
> Stealthiness of an aircraft can be achieved through different means, and Pakistan has some experience in some of these techniques, but yeah designing an aircraft based on the stealth platforms or like stealth platforms F-117, B-2 etc is something which we lack.
> 
> But with the passage of time with collaboration of Chinese, we can train our engineers who are able to do their work in designing stealth aerial platforms.



1 thing to quote , we know better than chinese. Problem is lack of funds.


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## Donatello

fatman17 said:


> every country has their "Skunk Works" departments where experiments can sometimes yield un-expected results!



Yes, but expecting too much out of it, would be foolish.

Obviously, every nation safeguards it's interests and defense is one of them.....


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## sancho

MehrotraPrince said:


> while if you visit Gripens official website then you will find that
> External load carrying capacity of Gripen C/D = 14100 - 6800 - 2000 = 5300 Kg



Because Saab tends to fake their specs sometimes, by decreasing the internal fuel to increase payload. Earlier specs of the C/D showed around 2300Kg internal fuel and 5000Kg payload, while the current just say >2000Kg fuel and 5300Kg payload. They did the same with Gripen NG specs as well and changed the original 6000Kg payload to 7000+ Kg, while not mentioning the in correct internal fuel anymore. Lets call it manufacturers PR!



IceCold said:


> Based on the facts above, JF-17 is actually superior to JAS Gripen apart from the payload capacity. There isnt much difference in radar range in up look detection and down look detection is actually better.
> And this is block 1 that we are comparing with the C/D Gripen, block 2 will actually surpass it in all aspects.



That are only some specs on paper, but think about all things and operational service and you will find a lot of differences:

Gripen C (although this is the wrong version to compare JF17 B1 to)...

...has a lower RCS, thanks to a designed that integrated composites, RAM coatings and even radar blockers for this development goal
...is more maneuverable, thanks to a better dry TWR, lower wingloading, the delta canard design, G limits
...carries more payload (Gripen A doesn't)
...has a dedicated pod station
...the more capable weapons (Iris-T, Aim 120 / Meteor which will be integrated now, US LGBs, PGMs and CAS missiles and for Sweden carries even 2 x Taurus cruise missiles)
...offers mid air refuelling (Gripen A doesn't)
...good EW systems and avionics
...has dedicated recon pods integrated


So the the Gripen C offers a lot of advantages to the early JF17 that the specs on paper might not show at first sight. However, both will serve their roles pretty well and it will be interesting to see what chages JF 17 B3 will have and how close it can be to Gripen E/F.


We might go back to topic (J10B) again right?

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## Arsalan

alimobin memon said:


> Jf17 T/w ratio is greater than 1 , the t/W ratio found in internet is incorrect . EW capability has proven that Jf17 can jam F16 BLK 15 of pakistan , Combat radius is greater than f16 which is good that means we can attack any target far than the f16's mission range.
> Fact is that China , Pakistan currency is not very high that's why our product cost are cheaper, Jf17 if was built by any west could not have been less than 40mn$ , you see russia Even SU35BM i think that is the only fighter better than typhoon and rafale or living legend to fight against F22 and F35 whil'st Even F15 SE is more than 90mn $ . Not to drag just to tell you PAF friend he is engineer told me that you just wait and watch, there are somethings that on internet people project we will have are already in Pakistan.





IceCold said:


> I am not the correct person to answer this, perhaps you should direct it towards antibody. I based my argument solely on his post mentioned above in which he has made a comparison. The reason was that Indians here try to make us believe that Gripen is a class or should i say world apart from the JF-17 in terms of capability, yet when we see an actual comparison being made, both fighters match equally.



Thanks dear,
the question was definitely not a directed one, it was open request and anybody can help me with it.. that that you did aswell
 

that was the point, we are correct to say that JFT is evenly matched to Gripen C/D and EW is something we might never actually get complete details of..


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## Manticore

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...akistan-will-soon-get-j10-24.html#post3079785
please read my post again -- you can take the discussion to the grippen arguments thread if you like


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## T-Rex

TaimiKhan said:


> Jet engine has nothing to do with a country having experience in stealth.
> 
> Stealthiness of an aircraft can be achieved through different means, and Pakistan has some experience in some of these techniques, but yeah designing an aircraft based on the stealth platforms or like stealth platforms F-117, B-2 etc is something which we lack.
> 
> But with the passage of time with collaboration of Chinese, we can train our engineers who are able to do their work in designing stealth aerial platforms.




*I know that PAF has its eye on stealth capability but I think acquiring the technology to build its own jet engine is more important than acquiring stealth capability. So, Pakistan should invest in building indigenous jet engines instead of investing scarce resources to acquire stealth capability. If Pakistan can build its own jet engines it doesn't have to depend on others to build fighter planes, in other words, Pakistan will be 100% self-sufficient in this area. After that Pakistan can focus on stealth with a cool head.*

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## Sinnerman108

TaimiKhan said:


> *Jet engine has nothing to do with a country having experience in stealth.
> *
> Stealthiness of an aircraft can be achieved through different means, and Pakistan has some experience in some of these techniques, but yeah designing an aircraft based on the stealth platforms or like stealth platforms F-117, B-2 etc is something which we lack.
> 
> But with the passage of time with collaboration of Chinese, we can train our engineers who are able to do their work in designing stealth aerial platforms.



That is not entirely correct.
Not every stealth aircraft is B2 ! which is the most efficient flying design.

To make a machine stealthy often imposes restrictions on aerodynamic design. 
some times these losses in aerodynamic efficiency have to be made up by other means.

Thus, although stealth does not require mastery of jet technology, however the actual manifestation of technology would require that same.

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## kevinx

Tired of so many quarelling on J-10 vs. Rafale.
IMHO, given geopolitical and economic reasons, I find PAF with very few choice besides J-10.
So whether J10 is comparable to Rafale or not is really irrelevant. A good question would be when J-10/or J-10B would be delivered to PAF and in what amounts.

More importantly, 36 # of J-10 would definitely no match for IAF's new birds whatsoever. The type of mind-set that PAF should always on par with IAF is simply outdated. In both quality and quantity, I see no possibility that PAF would outperform IAF in forseeable future.
Some people may argue, Pakistan is not alone, when facing India. But I would seriously think thats some sort of myth.
Of course China would always be a reliable country for weapons and collarborations in anti-terror. But in terms of warfare, China is increasingly a regional power that has so many troubles to worry and so many borderlines, sealanes to take care and guard.
Would China take the risk of a full scale war with India, a nuke country with effective projection capabilities? Not even mentioning India is a trading partner and we're still much more interested in pursuing economic growth than to get involved in a total war.

In terms of support that Chinese could give in a resonably-controlled small scale, low intensity confilict to help our Pak friends. There will be only a handful squadrons of J-10, J-11 based in Chengdu Military Region and 3 brigades (incl. 54th Merchanized Infantry Brigade) of land force based in Tibet may be used.

PAF needs a reliable source for its platforms, it needs a cost/performance acceptable platform, thats simply why J-10 is the ultimate chioce. And as long as 36 J-10 could play a minimal deterrence role, people shouldn't be dissatisified. It is the economic growth, governance and living standard improvement and of course nukes being the backbone of Pakistani national security, not any fancy birds.

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## turbo charged

36 J-10's would be more than enough....we should save money for single engine variant of stealthy J-20.


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## KRAIT

turbo charged said:


> 36 J-10's would be more than enough....we should save money for single engine variant of stealthy J-20.


You need more J-10B because of Super Sukhoi and Rafale for next 7 to 9 years, stealth one should be procured around the same time when Indian FGFA rolls out.


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## Bossman

KRAIT said:


> You need more J-10B because of Super Sukhoi and Rafale for next 7 to 9 years, stealth one should be procured around the same time when Indian FGFA rolls out.



All the Indian programs you have mentioned are already suffering significant delays, so we have enough flexibility. Also J21 is coming up fast, which is Pakistan specific.


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## India defense

Pakistan should compete Indian economically....because if you have money ....you can buy any thing in this world....


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## Bossman

India defense said:


> Pakistan should compete Indian economically....because if you have money ....you can buy any thing in this world....



Right now Indian economy is hardly anything to look upto. The currency is in a free fall, the country ratings are being downgraded to Junk status, cost of servicing foreign currency borrowing by Indian companies has become unsustainable, the fiscal deficit is hitting 11%.

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## IPL5

Bossman said:


> Right now Indian economy is hardly anything to look upto. The currency is in a free fall, the country ratings are being downgraded to Junk status, cost of servicing foreign currency borrowing by Indian companies has become unsustainable, *the fiscal deficit is hitting 11%*.





@topic...under cooked j10b is no match of IAF..this is a delusion which is created to get little satisfaction. enjoy it. I hope PAF get the real j10 b after getting the toy.


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## mjnaushad

IPL5 said:


> @topic...under cooked j10b is no match of IAF.*.this is a delusion which is created to get little satisfaction.* enjoy it. I hope PAF get the real j10 b after getting the toy.



Can't agree more.....


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## arp2041

The buzz words "will soon" are here........

I thought these words are patented by Indian armed forces

You know "will soon get" LCA, "will soon get" military satellite, "will soon get" Arjuns.....etc.


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## IceCold

We are not going to get J-10 not before 2015 anyways, i don't see the purpose of this thread still running because there is no soon in the whole thing.


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## rcrmj

India defense said:


> Pakistan should compete Indian economically....because if you have money ....you can buy any thing in this world....


first your pony india economy is the laughing stock of the world,
second not everyone like India buying everything from everyone (the wannabe mentality)

lastly, as usual, its about when PAF will get J10 not economy

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## sancho

IceCold said:


> We are not going to get J-10 not before 2015 anyways, i don't see the purpose of this thread still running because there is no soon in the whole thing.



The purpose of most of the discussions was to find out the credibility of the report and how far it will add to PAFs capabilities, but so far there is hardly any reliable source about the procurement, nor about J10Bs real capability. So lets wait and see...

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## IndianTiger

soon soon soon. But when.


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## sancho

IndianTiger said:


> soon soon soon. But when.



Does it matter? As stated, the important point is what changes they might bring to PAF, while PAF can go on with their already good pace of modernisation wrt JF17, tanker and AWACS additions, contrary to IAF.


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## Xracer

IndianTiger said:


> soon soon soon. But when.


we will get them sooon atleast before your Rafale arrives or tejas get Ready


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## W.11

ab to india ke hate ge, mager responses dekh k to yahi lagta hai k indians ki abhi se hat gye

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## Machoman

turbo charged said:


> 36 J-10's would be more than enough....we should save money for single engine variant of stealthy J-20.



Sorry J-20 is not for sale....for any other country than China....so don't dream about it.


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## Safriz

Machoman said:


> Sorry J-20 is not for sale....for any other country than China....so don't dream about it.


 
J-20 wont be available for export,same as F-22.
But similar to F-35 there will be a cut down stealth version for export.

and seriously J-10 procurement has gone same way as indian MMRCA...
All talk no action...

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Well it was suppose to be delivered in 2014 , we are 2012 so ... don`t expect anything 

We just want to make sure the JF17 upgrading is on schedule


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## Viper0011.

Bossman said:


> Right now Indian economy is hardly anything to look upto. The currency is in a free fall, the country ratings are being downgraded to Junk status, cost of servicing foreign currency borrowing by Indian companies has become unsustainable, the fiscal deficit is hitting 11%.



Indian economy may not be growing as hard core as it was until 2008, but it is STILL growing. In fact, the more Western countries come under the financial crisis, the better it becomes for India as they all want to offshore to India due to cheaper cost. And that cheaper cost really is upper middle class income in India. So tremendous investment are being made in the Indian economy and it'll be more going forward.

Pakistan REALLY needs to get rid of the thugs its put into its government. People elected them so they need to see the crap that's representing the country. A better and honest leadership is a MUST HAVE and ASAP for the Pakistanis. The current leaders have a ton of assets everywhere but in Pakistan.
Similarly, India and Pakistan both should get on to the same table and open trade. It is sad to see people of the same color, language and background involved in the conflict since their separation. You can fight all you want, you'll still be neighbors.....that's a reality no one and however many wars can't change!

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## Xracer

[:::~Spartacus~:::];3192202 said:


> ab to india ke hate ge, mager responses dekh k to yahi lagta hai k indians ki abhi se hat gye


aray hat kya gai Paaaat gayi LOL


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## SBD-3

Some information from PShamim sahib on this topic


> Qasim Saheb,
> No there is no conjecture on your part. There have been some problems with the engine issue which I have been aware of but chose to keep quiet it too.
> 
> As we are all aware of AM Tahir ****'s visit to China last May. Many issues were discussed but JF-17 was the major part of discussion. Let me provide some information about the between AM Tahir and Chairman of Avic. This meeting was held on May 29 in Beijing.
> 
> Major part of discussions was about the engine issue. They talked about implementation, cooperation and follow up of major projects between the two entities. Chinese assured that they will not only provide quality equipment but help Pakistan in expanding production capacities. *What was also heartening to see that Chinese presented and gifted Air Marshal J-10 models which indicated that China is prepared to provide PAF the J-10s and project is alive and well.*The biggest constraint that was agreed by two is the engine issues. Though Russia has now agreed to ship RD-93 for ZJF-17, Pakistan firmly believes believes that it does not want to be held hostage by Russians as it suffered at the hands of American. They do not want disruptions and do not want to deal with countries influenced by India. But then acquisition of JF-17 and J-10 do have the same problems. Both of these aircrafts use RD-93 and AL-31FN engines respectively and both are produced in Russia.
> 
> They discussed the export of J-10s to Pakistan with WS-10 engines. J-11s and some J-10s have been flying with this engine and are now quite matured without any kinks. The same cannot be said for WS-13. RD-93 crisis may be over but Pakistan does not want to take a long term strategic risk with them. Now Pakistan has to decide which engine it prefers and decide fast. Hence there have been speculation about which engine PAF may want in JF-17 unless Putin succeed in persuading Pakistan Government to accept RD-93.
> 
> I feel PAF has finally decided to make it impossible for Indians to influence its acquisition of whichever aircraft it wants.
> 
> Hope this helps understand the problem and the direction PAF wants to go.
> JF-17 Related Discussion - 2012

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## regular

But don't know when these kinda info gonna get materialize with J-10 flying in our skies. I guess PAF will get them as soon as they will need them.......


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## Dil Pakistan

AL31FN is being talked about for JF-17.

Do we know what other fighters use this engine ? OR it is specific for JF-17 ?


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## SBD-3

Dil Pakistan said:


> AL31FN is being talked about for JF-17.
> 
> Do we know what other fighters use this engine ? OR it is specific for JF-17 ?


Then sentense is RD93 and Al-31FN for JF-17 and J-10 *respectively*......


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## Dil Pakistan

hasnain0099 said:


> Then sentense is RD93 and Al-31FN for JF-17 and J-10 *respectively*......



*OK, allow me to rephrase my question:*

AL31FN is being talked about for *J-10*.

Do we know what other fighters use this engine ? OR it is specific for J-10 ?


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## manofwar

Dil Pakistan said:


> *OK, allow me to rephrase my question:*
> 
> AL31Fn is being talked about for *J-10*.
> 
> Do we know what other fighters use this engine ? OR it is specific for J-10 ?


Al 31FN isn't just being talked about, It has been used in it, at least in J 10A. But this particular version AL 31 is limited to J 10. It is the most distinct of all other versions as it has been considerably reduced in size and weight so that it can be accommodated in J 10, though this has cost the engine it's thrust vectoring capabilities, for which it is reputed.
Other users of AL 31 include Su 27,30,35,37 and J 11

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## Dil Pakistan

*Do you mean:*


manofwar said:


> Al 31FN isn't just being talked about, It has been used in it, at least in J 10A. But this particular version AL 31 is limited to J 10. It is the most distinct of all other versions as it has been considerably reduced in size and weight so that it can be accommodated in J 10, though this has caused the engine *to loose *it's thrust vectoring capabilities, for which it is reputed.
> Other users of AL 31 include Su 27,30,35,37 and J 11


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## manofwar

Dil Pakistan said:


> *Do you mean:*


Yes that's what I meant.....


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## regular

We are still dreaming about the J-10'nz but don't know when is gonna come true???........


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## Safriz

2014-2015? May be....


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## A.Rafay

Does this mean that if we get j20 model as gift then we get the j20 too!


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## Safriz

A.Rafay said:


> Does this mean that if we get j20 model as gift then we get the j20 too!



When did we get J-20 model?


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## trident2010

May be they gave the model of J-10A and later PAF wanted J-10B and thats why delay? 

Why don't PAF induct 1-2 squadrons of J-10A as a stopgap and raise the infrastructure and training facilities for its pilots? Once J-10B delivered to PAF they can return J-10A's back to China just as IAF did with early Su-30's.

Doesn't make sense to wait with nothing for a long time rather get J-10A and once J-10B's are there replace them.

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## 帅的一匹

Arsalan said:


> if you ever bother to listen or read a bit more carefully you will notice that that SOME Pakistani pilots compared this with what F-16 model they practiced against, the blk-15. JFT BLK-1 is as good as the F-16 Blk30 or F-16 MLU.
> it can compete with F-16 BLK52 as well for all since both are BVR capable.
> 
> remember we have only Blk-1 in PAF as of yet and as time passes, and the machine get matured, everyone can see its potential!
> 
> regards!


that's why he got banned


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## 帅的一匹

trident2010 said:


> May be they gave the model of J-10A and later PAF wanted J-10B and thats why delay?
> 
> Why don't PAF induct 1-2 squadrons of J-10A as a stopgap and raise the infrastructure and training facilities for its pilots? Once J-10B delivered to PAF they can return J-10A's back to China just as IAF did with early Su-30's.
> 
> Doesn't make sense to wait with nothing for a long time rather get J-10A and once J-10B's are there replace them.



J10b is more like a multirole fighter with much stronger air to ground ability than J10a, thats why PAF give up J10a and go for J10b directly.



A.Rafay said:


> Does this mean that if we get j20 model as gift then we get the j20 too!


PAF will get J20 before 2020, a conservative estimation.

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## batmannow

trident2010 said:


> May be they gave the model of J-10A and later PAF wanted J-10B and thats why delay?
> 
> Why don't PAF induct 1-2 squadrons of J-10A as a stopgap and raise the infrastructure and training facilities for its pilots? Once J-10B delivered to PAF they can return J-10A's back to China just as IAF did with early Su-30's.
> 
> Doesn't make sense to wait with nothing for a long time rather get J-10A and once J-10B's are there replace them.



PAF is closly watching J10b in china & the modification in it, as soon as it reach to the point of perfectnesS , sure that day the cermonial dates would be anounced shortly, I think PAF hve all the time for that, but in the end of 2013 or in the mid of 2014 , it will reach to conclusion!
With other plateform maturing & getting its way in to PAF has made the real difference , J-10b will be power booster for paf.

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## sancho

wanglaokan said:


> J10b is more like a multirole fighter *with much stronger air to ground ability than J10a*, thats why PAF give up J10a and go for J10b directly.



How should that be possible? From what we have seen so far, the B version will have the same number of hardpoints, no CFTs or other changes to make it carry other A2G weapons than the A version. All the weapons that the B versions can carry, can easily be integrated into the As as well with a minor upgrade of wirings and software if at all. 
The most obvious differences are in the A2A field instead, with IRST, new radar (PESA or AESA) and probably a better RCS and TWR. 
So if PAF wanted to wait, then for these changes and not for A2G capabilities, besides that they might wanted to see how the Chinese engine developments might turn out.


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## 帅的一匹

J10B had been put in PLAAF service in Feburary 2012 in Guangzhou, which means the delivery time of FC20 to PAF is before 2015.



sancho said:


> How should that be possible? From what we have seen so far, the B version will have the same number of hardpoints, no CFTs or other changes to make it carry other A2G weapons than the A version. All the weapons that the B versions can carry, can easily be integrated into the As as well with a minor upgrade of wirings and software if at all.
> The most obvious differences are in the A2A field instead, with IRST, new radar (PESA or AESA) and probably a better RCS and TWR.
> So if PAF wanted to wait, then for these changes and not for A2G capabilities, besides that they might wanted to see how the Chinese engine developments might turn out.


Tail ECM podsJ-10B tail upper edge is curved, and J-10 sharp straight tail different. The fairing is added to the top of the wing to accommodate the electronic warfare and counter ( EW/ECM ) device.Antenna arrayJ-10B external four black array antenna attached to the fuselage, larger in the cockpit sides, smaller in the rear fuselage near the engine nozzle. These antenna detailed application is unknown, but thought to be used for electronic warfare objective analysis.Aerodynamic configurationThe -10B aerodynamic layout improvement of main points: 1, head downward sloping, vertical lines; 2 cut tip; 3, pelvic fins cut tip. The -10B head modification can be made of what effect is temporarily unable to learn, but vertical cut tip, pelvic fins cut tip effect is clear. The wing tip is cut to reduce weight, nor to the shape of the beautiful, but for practical pneumatic need. Theory and experiments have shown that, in supersonic flight, wing tip the airflow would like at subsonic speeds, from the high pressure region around the tip to the lateral area of low pressure, reduce the upper and lower wing surface pressure difference. However, due to the pressure disturbance occurs in only by the wingtip leading edge sends Machco, Maher cone, the wing is not affected. Apparently, cut off this reduces the efficiency of the wing tip, to improve the aircraft speed performance is beneficial. The -10B tail cut tip, pelvic fins cut tip helps reduce the flight resistance, improve the acceleration performance, improve the flight of aircraft. But because the DSI inlet restriction, the -10B maximum speed should be slightly lower than the -10A
Baidu translation......

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## 1ndy

I have F-22 model... 
plaf, paf, iaf and other you are at risk just don't mess with me


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## MilSpec

batmannow said:


> PAF is closly watching J10b in china & the modification in it, as soon as it reach to the point of perfectnesS , sure that day the cermonial dates would be anounced shortly, I think PAF hve all the time for that, but in the end of 2013 or in the mid of 2014 , it will reach to conclusion!
> With other plateform maturing & getting its way in to PAF has made the real difference , J-10b will be power booster for paf.



J10 program was started in 1988; Interesting that an aircraft like j10 has taken 24 years in making still pakistanis are waiting for it's maturity; whereas the other aircraft made by the same company was developed and inducted within 5-7 years( as claimed by pakistani members here)- Strange.


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## TaimiKhan

sandy_3126 said:


> J10 program was started in 1988; Interesting that an aircraft like j10 has taken 24 years in making still pakistanis are waiting for it's maturity; whereas the other aircraft made by the same company was developed and inducted within 5-7 years( as claimed by pakistani members here)- Strange.



Pakistanis are waiting for the B model equipped with Chienese engine with better electronic / avionic equipment compared to the currently operational model. So there is nothing strange here, the other aircraft also took its time and its program took another route and its parameters are different when compared to J-10B.

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## Fieldmarshal

ur worg mr. sandy infact way of the mark.
Work on JF-17 thunder stated in 1987, that 25 years. way before j-10. 
thats 25 years of evolution, from the early days of super 7 with american involvement in the program to what it has eventually evolved into JF-17 thunder. 
two are practically unrecognizable. and in most ways totally different platforms, as the performance envelops assigned for each platform were different.


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## karan.1970

Fieldmarshal said:


> ur worg mr. sandy infact way of the mark.
> Work on JF-17 thunder stated in 1987, that 25 years. way before j-10.
> thats 25 years of evolution, from the early days of super 7 with american involvement in the program to what it has eventually evolved into JF-17 thunder.
> two are practically unrecognizable. and in most ways totally different platforms, as the performance envelops assigned for each platform were different.



This is very different from what most Pakistani members claim regarding the speed of JFT development..

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## TaimiKhan

karan.1970 said:


> This is very different from what most Pakistani members claim regarding the speed of JFT development..



Pakistani members mention the time frame when the design was finalized and first prototype flew in 2003, as before that all the thing was mostly on papers with F-7 airframe being redesigned into something new, and other issues. It was in 2001 that decision was made to decouple the avionics package with the airframe and commence with the prototype stage with first flight taking off in 2003 and then in 2006 we saw the current operational / production JF-17. 

So the thing started in 1989 on paper and talks which kept on going till 2001 and after 2001 the final project which materialized started which brought us JF-17 and not the modified F-7 Sabre II program. 

CAC/PAC JF-17 Thunder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And this was Sabre II, which was abandoned and JF-17 was started:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Sabre_II

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## 帅的一匹

The most important thing is PAF receive FC20 earlier than IAF receiving Rafale, even if 1 day earlier.

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## TaimiKhan

wanglaokan said:


> The most important thing is PAF receive FC20 earlier than IAF receiving Rafale, even if 1 day earlier.



Nothing can be said for sure as of now. Time will tell now.

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## MilSpec

wanglaokan said:


> The most important thing is PAF receive FC20 earlier than IAF receiving Rafale, even if 1 day earlier.


I dont think anyone is worried about a single al31 powered fighter, no one is loosing sleep on that


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## Dazzler

WS-10, Aesa

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## 帅的一匹

sandy_3126 said:


> I dont think anyone is worried about a single al31 powered fighter, no one is loosing sleep on that


You spend 10 billions USD to buy that psychological comfort, so, sleep tight!

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## trident2010

wanglaokan said:


> The most important thing is PAF receive FC20 earlier than IAF receiving Rafale, even if 1 day earlier.



Getting FC20 a day or year before IAF gets Rafale is not important. If PAF gets 100 J-10B now still IAF have more MKI's, Mig-29 SMT and Mirage 2000 etc. However, what is more important is once the AF gets new fighters they can start working on training, finding its strong and weak points and plan their strategy according to it. 

As far as Rafale is concerned, now its flying with AESA which was the requirement of IAF. So once the deal is signed I don't think it will take too much time to induct.


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## sancho

wanglaokan said:


> J10B had been put in PLAAF service in Feburary 2012 in Guangzhou, which means the delivery time of FC20 to PAF is before 2015...



Interesting, but you didn't answerd the question, because all the mentioned features has nothing to do with improved A2G capabilites like you said. Avionics of J10A can easily be upgraded to B level and so on, but the fact remains, J10B has no changes to carry more or different A2G weapons than the A version could.




wanglaokan said:


> The most important thing is PAF receive FC20 earlier than IAF receiving Rafale, even if 1 day earlier.



Which doesn't make a difference anyway, since their counterparts will be Mig 29UPGs and MKIs in first place, with Rafale just coming on top.

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## 帅的一匹

The air frame of J10b is changed, More compact and less weight by using composite material with less RCS. J10b is a multirole fighter in the baidu research you could easily find it, J10a is an air superior fighter. The max speed of J10b is decreased to 1.8 Mach but with a stronger air to ground ability. J10b is a 4.5 gen fighters, while J10a is only a 4gen fighter. A Chinese aviation engineer once said: the difficulty of modification from J10a to J10b is even harder than bring in a new air frame in the design.

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## Yogi

wanglaokan said:


> You spend 10 billions USD to buy that psychological comfort, so, sleep tight!



We didn't spend billions to win some psychological comfort as SU-30 MKI n Super 30s were more than enough for that which we will definitely recieve before J10s delivery for PAF

We went for Rafale becoz it was the best plane for our needs n not to make a micky out of Pak....


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## sancho

wanglaokan said:


> The air frame of J10b is changed, More compact and less weight by using composite material with less RCS. J10b is a multirole fighter in the baidu research you could easily find it, J10a is an air superior fighter. The max speed of J10b is decreased to 1.8 Mach but with a stronger air to ground ability. J10b is a 4.5 gen fighters, while J10a is only a 4gen fighter. A Chinese aviation engineer once said: *the difficulty of modification from J10a to J10b is even harder than bring in a new air frame in the design*.



Exactly, because of the changes made at the air intake mainly, but these have nothing to do with A2G capabilty! You can easily upgrade a 4th fighter with new avionics, RAM coatings, adding some composites and additional A2G weaponary to make it multi role capable, that's why IAF currently does with it's Mig 29s and that would not be different with J10A.
Take the Gripen NG as an example, with 2 x centerline stations for 1000Kg bombs or cruise missiles, that is a design change with increased A2G capability in mind.

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## batmannow

Yogi said:


> We didn't spend billions to win some psychological comfort as SU-30 MKI n Super 30s were more than enough for that which we will definitely recieve before J10s delivery for PAF
> 
> We went for Rafale becoz it was the best plane for our needs n not to make a micky out of Pak....



just belive me you,ill get another hot lock on by PAF on your rafale , if you ever try to cross the red thin line!


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## prabhakar

does it has AESA ?


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## 帅的一匹

Yes, FC20 has AESA radar.


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## Donatello

trident2010 said:


> Getting FC20 a day or year before IAF gets Rafale is not important. If PAF gets 100 J-10B now still IAF have more MKI's, Mig-29 SMT and Mirage 2000 etc. However, what is more important is once the AF gets new fighters they can start working on training, finding its strong and weak points and plan their strategy according to it.
> 
> As far as Rafale is concerned, now its flying with AESA which was the requirement of IAF. So once the deal is signed I don't think it will take too much time to induct.




The idea is not to field equal numbers of aircaft but, that if Pakistan buys even a handful of good planes, like J-10s armed with BVRs, then it can deliver a thrashing in return to the IAF. That will make India think twice before it decides to start a war. Doesn't matter if PAF loses all 300 combat aircraft.......if those 300 aircraft end up taking even 1/3 of IAF out......India is in a tough space considering the PLAAF sitting right on top. So India will have to negotiate a way out of war.

Wars are never something fun. And i am glad people like you don't sit in the Foreign affairs of India or Pakistan.

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## Edevelop

Still waiting for the exact date of deliveries...


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## Edevelop

wanglaokan said:


> The most important thing is PAF receive FC20 earlier than IAF receiving Rafale, even if 1 day earlier.



If that is when we get J-10s, then i'm guessing the C block variant would have then arrived...


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## A.Rafay

J10B: im soon going to Pakistan!

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## batmannow

A.Rafay said:


> J10B: im soon going to Pakistan!



Yes ,Sooner thn my indian fan,s expectations!
Just to hve a hot lock on rafales.


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## 帅的一匹

Andross said:


> First your planes have to get pass our air defence system of which we have Israeli systems which is unmatched



Israel failed to intercept those dilapidated russian missile in the latest simulation by using their ABM system. If PAF could tear down 1/3 of IAF, India will be dead meat in front of china.

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## 帅的一匹

I don't think IAF is gonna be able to annihalate PAF. If they could do it, it would have been done 40 years ago.


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## 帅的一匹

Andross said:


> First your planes have to get pass our air defence system of which we have Israeli systems which is unmatched


Your ABM units is far from enough if china and Pakistan mobile from 2 directions.

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## sancho

A.Rafay said:


> J10B: im soon going to Pakistan!



That's J10 *A*


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## surya kiran

cb4 said:


> If that is when we get J-10s, then i'm guessing the C block variant would have then arrived...



Thats a nice pic man. Looks like a shark with mouth open


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## DARKY

wanglaokan said:


> Your ABM units is far from enough if china and Pakistan mobile from 2 directions.



Our L-band LRTR can track targets upto 1000km inside China even If stationed 500km inside Indian Border... and It can track objects as small as the ping-pong ball.


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## DARKY

Donatello said:


> The idea is not to field equal numbers of aircaft but, that if Pakistan buys even a handful of good planes, like J-10s armed with BVRs, then it can deliver a thrashing in return to the IAF. That will make India think twice before it decides to start a war. Doesn't matter if PAF loses all 300 combat aircraft.......if those 300 aircraft end up taking even 1/3 of IAF out......India is in a tough space considering the PLAAF sitting right on top. So India will have to negotiate a way out of war.
> 
> Wars are never something fun. And i am glad people like you don't sit in the Foreign affairs of India or Pakistan.



Don't you think losing the entire PAF fleet would bring Pakistan and not India negotiating the way out... ?.. Last time not even half of PAF fleet was down and Pakistan lost 1/3 of its territory and about half its strength in population.. signing the surrender and negotiating the way out at Shimla... inspite of the fact that not only China but even US was hell bent and put all the resources they could have to stop the Indian advance.



cb4 said:


> If that is when we get J-10s, then i'm guessing the C block variant would have then arrived...



Is that your new stuff toy ?


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## graphican

wanglaokan said:


> Israel failed to intercept those dilapidated russian missile in the latest simulation by using their ABM system.* If PAF could tear down 1/3 *of IAF, India will be dead meat in front of china.



Today I was thinking the same that India can at most afford to use/loose 1/3rd of its air power against Pakistan and more it consumes itself against Pakistan the greater risk it would have to loose its parity further and get more vulnerable against China. 

JFT is growing stronger and addition of J-10s would further enhance PAF defenses and attacking abilities. Adding F-16s to equation makes the equation even better.


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## jackyy

graphican said:


> Today* I was thinking the same that India can at most afford to use/loose 1/3rd of its air power against Pakistan and more it consumes itself against Pakistan the greater risk it would have to loose its parity further and get more vulnerable against China. *
> 
> JFT is growing stronger and addition of J-10s would further enhance PAF defenses and attacking abilities. Adding F-16s to equation makes the equation even better.



You thought same in kargil war .India came with every thing they had in arsenal.


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## Alfa-Fighter

wanglaokan said:


> Israel failed to intercept those dilapidated russian missile in the latest simulation by using their ABM system. If PAF could tear down 1/3 of IAF, India will be dead meat in front of china.



Then their are Russian, Japanese and Vietnam and off course US airforce came in and i think in front of all these China Airforce wont able to get Chinese to fly like your iraqi brothers? 

Well all simulation reports are classified , you cant even get your plane system info and claim you got Israeli ABM info . Such info are provided to deceive enemy. If indeed it fail then it would not have telling the whole world.


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## arp2041

Donatello said:


> The idea is not to field equal numbers of aircaft but, that if Pakistan buys even a handful of good planes, like J-10s armed with BVRs, then it can deliver a thrashing in return to the IAF. That will make India think twice before it decides to start a war. Doesn't matter if PAF loses all 300 combat aircraft.......if those 300 aircraft end up taking even 1/3 of IAF out......*India is in a tough space considering the PLAAF sitting right on top.* So India will have to negotiate a way out of war.
> 
> Wars are never something fun. And i am glad people like you don't sit in the Foreign affairs of India or Pakistan.



The notion that China gonna fight a war with India for Pakistan is totally false, why will China fight a war with a nation with whom it has some $60+ billion of trade which is only going to increase in the coming years as the two Asian giants rise, & for the sake of that nation with whom it has no economic gains?? This thinking of the people of Pakistan that China will come as a savior vis-a-vis India is completely without basis, & the faster they understand this the better, there is no permanent friends in International affairs but only permanent interests, China thought that it's interests are best served by friendship with India pre-1962, so it did that, post-1962 it thought that it's interests are best served with a friendship with Pakistan so it quickly changed sides. China din't came to save Pakistan in it's hour of need in 1971, now this is 21st century where the economic relations between the nations decide the political relations between the nations. China is not going to jeopardize it's billions of trade with India for the sake of Pakistan, even if it does than what do u think, will Russia & US be watching this from the sidelines?? So what u r thinking about is the recipe of a third world war & not a defeat of India.

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## graphican

nabil_05 said:


> WS-10, Aesa



Can somebody with hawk-eyes tell if the model is J-10B or J-10A ?

Looking at the tail part, I think it is J-10A model. BUT I WISH I WISH I WISH IT WOULD BE J-10B!!!


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## arp2041

graphican said:


> Can somebody with hawk-eyes tell if the model is J-10B or J-10A ?




wait let me see......

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## genmirajborgza786

DARKY said:


> Don't you think losing the entire PAF fleet would bring Pakistan and not India negotiating the way out... ?.. Last time not even half of PAF fleet was down and Pakistan lost *1/3* of its territory



dude if you re referring to Bangladesh then for your kind information its nowhere even near 1/3 rd of Pakistan

Pakistan + Pakistan administered Kashmir is 339,000 sq ml. = 878,005 sq km while Bangladesh is 56,000 sq mi = 147,000 sq km now you do the maths Pakistan is more then 6 times the size of Bangladesh heck Pakistan in land area is larger then Bangladesh,Myanmar & Bhutan put together.

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## Armstrong

genmirajborgza786 said:


> dude if you re referring to Bangladesh then for your kind information its nowhere even near 1/3 rd of Pakistan
> 
> Pakistan + Pakistan administered Kashmir is 339,000 sq ml. = 878,005 sq km while Bangladesh is 56,000 sq mi = 147,000 sq km now you do the maths Pakistan is more then 6 times the size of Bangladesh heck Pakistan in land area is larger then Bangladesh,Myanmar & Bhutan put together.



Buttt Sahib please change the country flags...hum sutaillloon ko bhi apnaa looo !  

And if there is one person from Pakistan's history books I admire its Muhammad Ali Jinnah (Our Father) !

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## Dazzler

customized j-10, dual seat with new bubble canopy unlike j-10S, AESA radar, EW housing on vertical tail, no DSI, IFR installed, new avionics and IRST, WS-10 instead of AL-31FN.

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## sancho

nabil_05 said:


> customized j-10, dual seat with new bubble canopy unlike j-10S, AESA radar, *EW housing on vertical tail, no DSI, IFR installed*, new avionics and IRST, WS-10 instead of AL-31FN.



And now check graphican pic once again, because you are describing a twin seat J10A.


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## A.Rafay

Andross said:


> First your planes have to get pass our air defence system of which we have Israeli systems which is unmatched



seems like the hizbollahs drones cant be spotted by this so called unmatched Israeli systems!!! uhh How will it spot Fighter planes when it cant spot Hizbollahs drone!!!

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## Donatello

arp2041 said:


> The notion that China gonna fight a war with India for Pakistan is totally false, why will China fight a war with a nation with whom it has some $60+ billion of trade which is only going to increase in the coming years as the two Asian giants rise, & for the sake of that nation with whom it has no economic gains?? This thinking of the people of Pakistan that China will come as a savior vis-a-vis India is completely without basis, & the faster they understand this the better, there is no permanent friends in International affairs but only permanent interests, China thought that it's interests are best served by friendship with India pre-1962, so it did that, post-1962 it thought that it's interests are best served with a friendship with Pakistan so it quickly changed sides. China din't came to save Pakistan in it's hour of need in 1971, now this is 21st century where the economic relations between the nations decide the political relations between the nations. China is not going to jeopardize it's billions of trade with India for the sake of Pakistan, even if it does than what do u think, will Russia & US be watching this from the sidelines?? So what u r thinking about is the recipe of a third world war & not a defeat of India.



You seriously lack comprehension skills, don't you?

Where did i mention in my post that China will fight the war for Pakistan?

What i meant was that India cannot afford to let it's IAF lose aircraft, because that will leave its flanks vulnerable elsewhere.

China will not fight a war for Pakistan, but remember, It can supply Aircraft and ammunition. 

Also, Pakistan's western border doesn't pose much threat relating to a future air war, i mean Afghan and Iran airforce are not an issue here. And not China either. Yes USAF is there, but they will be soon leaving. Thus Pakistan can field all 300 of it's 4 and 4+ gen aircraft on the eastern border. Indian cannot push all it's 600 high tech aircraft on the west. It does need to take care of the north and north east, and depending on how Bangladesh aligns itself with China or India, India might need to field larger number on the east as well.

The rest of your post is all about what i didn't even mention. Sometimes i wonder if illusions is the new Indian National Past time.

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## deckingraj

Donatello said:


> You seriously lack comprehension skills, don't you?
> 
> Where did i mention in my post that China will fight the war for Pakistan?
> 
> What i meant was that India cannot afford to let it's IAF lose aircraft, because that will leave its flanks vulnerable elsewhere.
> 
> China will not fight a war for Pakistan, but remember, It can supply Aircraft and ammunition.
> 
> Also, Pakistan's western border doesn't pose much threat relating to a future air war, i mean Afghan and Iran airforce are not an issue here. And not China either. Yes USAF is there, but they will be soon leaving. Thus Pakistan can field all 300 of it's 4 and 4+ gen aircraft on the eastern border. Indian cannot push all it's 600 high tech aircraft on the west. It does need to take care of the north and north east, and depending on how Bangladesh aligns itself with China or India, India might need to field larger number on the east as well.
> 
> The rest of your post is all about what i didn't even mention. Sometimes i wonder if illusions is the new Indian National Past time.



It is interesting to see same/similar points are repeated again and again....Anyhow if a war is going on with Pakistan then it is logical i am not going to loose that war just because i believe that putting my thrust is going to make me vulnerable to some threat that may or may not arrive...Mind it i am not saying that we will not be watching Chinese and their movement but what's the fun in loosing the war that is on for a war that may not happen?? Yes, we will not want to loose too many Aircrafts(heck we would not want to loose any) but unfortunately if we do then we would have no choice but to use the rest and fight to the last bullet, no??

Your points are valid pre war position with Pakistan...All these scenarios would be played over and over again..but god forbids if and when war break out then winning that would be the supreme priority....

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## arp2041

Donatello said:


> You seriously lack comprehension skills, don't you?
> 
> Where did i mention in my post that China will fight the war for Pakistan?
> 
> What i meant was that India cannot afford to let it's IAF lose aircraft, because that will leave its flanks vulnerable elsewhere.
> 
> China will not fight a war for Pakistan, but remember, It can supply Aircraft and ammunition.
> 
> Also, Pakistan's western border doesn't pose much threat relating to a future air war, i mean Afghan and Iran airforce are not an issue here. And not China either. Yes USAF is there, but they will be soon leaving. Thus Pakistan can field all 300 of it's 4 and 4+ gen aircraft on the eastern border. Indian cannot push all it's 600 high tech aircraft on the west. It does need to take care of the north and north east, and depending on how Bangladesh aligns itself with China or India, India might need to field larger number on the east as well.
> 
> The rest of your post is all about what i didn't even mention. Sometimes i wonder if illusions is the new Indian National Past time.



sorry sir, i may lack the comprehension skills, but i wanted to clear some misconceptions of the Pakistani members here, so don't take my post personally


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## Donatello

arp2041 said:


> sorry sir, i may lack the comprehension skills, but i wanted to clear some misconceptions of the Pakistani members here, so don't take my post personally



First of all, i didn't mean any offense, but that the fact you were implying something i never intended in my post.

I am not one of those Pakistanis living in delusional world. I do know the handicap of PAF and IAF and we have to analyze according to what is going around in the rest of the region. It's not as simple as 300 Sukhois or Rafales taking to the air and owning everything. Wars are a costly affair in terms of both manpower and physical assets, not as simple as 2+2=4, as many Pakistani and Indian members make it to be, here on this forum.

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## Storm Force

Banking on CHINA keeping IAF busy in the next war is a very dangerous assumption on the PAKISTANIS.

THE CHINEASE DID NOT mass planes and troops on india,s border in 1999 kargil or in 1971

DESPITE pakistanis claims to the contrary india china trade is $100 billion and set to triple in a decade does this inducate hostility.

3rd Chinease des[pite being a major military power house ARE not a avertly aggressive nation. They do not take to arms as reasdily as the USA thev ISRAELIS or the europeans. THEY have never threatened TAIWAN in military terms. So i ASK AGAIN wat is this notion that IAF needs to guard against north.

4th FINALLY i suggest you read up on INDIA,S nuclear TRIAD ie abou 100 missles on LAND SEA & AIR including AGNI prithvi & sagrika THAT MAY DISSUADE a china to get involved in indo pak mess.


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## batmannow

Storm Force said:


> Banking on CHINA keeping IAF busy in the next war is a very dangerous assumption on the PAKISTANIS.
> 
> THE CHINEASE DID NOT mass planes and troops on india,s border in 1999 kargil or in 1971
> 
> DESPITE pakistanis claims to the contrary india china trade is $100 billion and set to triple in a decade does this inducate hostility.
> 
> 3rd Chinease des[pite being a major military power house ARE not a avertly aggressive nation. They do not take to arms as reasdily as the USA thev ISRAELIS or the europeans. THEY have never threatened TAIWAN in military terms. So i ASK AGAIN wat is this notion that IAF needs to guard against north.
> 
> 4th FINALLY i suggest you read up on INDIA,S nuclear TRIAD ie abou 100 missles on LAND SEA & AIR including AGNI prithvi & sagrika THAT MAY DISSUADE a china to get involved in indo pak mess.


& thts why india has devloped a dam ICBM?
for pakistan?lol
ohh its china???


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## Dazzler

sancho said:


> And now check graphican pic once again, because you are describing a twin seat J10A.



The model is of the FC_20 which is a customized J-10A and B version as per our requirements, a twin seat fighter. Notice the B's nose, EW housing, IFR, a stretched dual seat capable canopy unlike what we saw in J-10S, intake is non-DSI, engine nozzle reminds me of WS-10.

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## Safriz

J-10 fighter planes, 6 marines for Pakistan as Cino-Pak talks underway | The News Tribe

A news report from march 2012.
Mentioning j-10,nuclear reactors and submarines from china for Pakistan..


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## sancho

nabil_05 said:


> The model is of the FC_20 which is a customized J-10A and B version as per our requirements, a twin seat fighter. Notice the B's nose, EW housing, IFR, a stretched dual seat capable canopy unlike what we saw in J-10S, intake is non-DSI, engine nozzle reminds me of WS-10.



Again, the EW housing on top of the tail is exactly what the J10As have not like the modernised B version, just like IFR or no DSI are distinguishing marks of the J10A! So all that would be new is the twin seat config, while the points about radar and engine are pure speculations based on a blurry pic of a model.  Come on, AESA is not even confirmed for J10B so far, just like WS 10 is still in big doubts (read the report fatman17 posted in the J10 thread with the part about chinese engines).


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## Dazzler

sancho said:


> Again, the EW housing on top of the tail is exactly what the J10As have not like the modernised B version, just like IFR or no DSI are distinguishing marks of the J10A! So all that would be new is the twin seat config, while the points about radar and engine are pure speculations based on a blurry pic of a model.  Come on, AESA is not even confirmed for J10B so far, just like WS 10 is still in big doubts (read the report fatman17 posted in the J10 thread with the part about chinese engines).



Care to look at the pic closely for EW housing which is similar to jf-17, not j-10A, canopy is clearly a stretched one, still bubble but unlike the roundish one on j-10S, engine nozzle is not at all similar to AL series, rather, it is shorter, shiny akin to WS-10, i posted the link of zoomed pic so look at it closely, regarding AESA, it is confirmed because... 

* it is among primary requirements by PAF

* the nose is not circular but elliptic-ish. 

*

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## Armstrong

nabil_05 said:


> Care to look at the pic closely for EW housing which is similar to jf-17, not j-10A, canopy is clearly a stretched one, still bubble but unlike the roundish one on j-10S, engine nozzle is not at all similar to AL series, rather, it is shorter, shiny akin to WS-10, i posted the link of zoomed pic so look at it closely, regarding AESA, it is confirmed because...
> 
> * it is among primary requirements by PAF
> 
> * the nose is not circular but elliptic-ish.
> 
> *



Dude, why does it seem to be a two seater ? What operational requirement of the PAF would a two seated platform fulfill now in the present or in the future when most of our contemporary (if not all of them) were single seated platforms ?


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## Dazzler

Posted by H Khan, a well connected member from Pakdef.... note the part regarding FC-20. 

(NOTE) Farhan 9909 posted this piece on jf-17 forum before me so credit goes to him. 


The third Sqd of JF-17 for PAF has been established and made operational. According to the Russian media, the original contract for the fighter's RD-93 engine covered 100 powerplants with an option for 500 more, and an uprated 20,500-lb.-thrust version, the RD-93MA, is under development. Meanwhile, one JF-17 is reported to be flying in China with the Guizhou WS-13 engine.

Block I serial production of JF-17 has concluded.

*PAF has not yet finalized that FC-20/J-10B deal but the Pakistani FC-20/J-10B version differs from the original in featuring an AESA radar, IRST, a diverterless inlet and underwing fairings that point to an improved electronic-warfare suite. 

Technologically, the FC-20/J-10B may be a stepping-stone to the J-20 and J-31. The status of China's stealth program has not become much clearer since the surprise appearance of the heavyweight J-20 at the end of 2010. *

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## farhan_9909

pak-def forum



> The third Sqd of JF-17 for PAF has been established and made operational. According to the Russian media, the original contract for the fighter's RD-93 engine covered 100 powerplants with an option for 500 more, and an uprated 20,500-lb.-thrust version, the RD-93MA, is under development. Meanwhile, one JF-17 is reported to be flying in China with the Guizhou WS-13 engine.
> 
> Block I serial production of JF-17 has concluded.
> 
> *PAF has not yet finalized that FC-20/J-10B deal but the Pakistani FC-20/J-10B version differs from the original in featuring an AESA radar, IRST, a diverterless inlet and underwing fairings that point to an improved electronic-warfare suite.
> *
> Technologically, the FC-20/J-10B may be a stepping-stone to the J-20 and J-31. The status of China's stealth program has not become much clearer since the surprise appearance of the heavyweight J-20 at the end of 2010.
> 
> As Mominkhan noted PAF might become the very first operator of J-31.
> 
> Despite their different shapes and sizes, the J-20 and J-31 are similar in that they appear to have advanced beyond the stage of being pure technology demonstrators. Both are larger than the J-10, pointing to a future three-level force mix for PAF and PLAAF.

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## Dazzler

Armstrong said:


> Dude, why does it seem to be a two seater ? What operational requirement of the PAF would a two seated platform fulfill now in the present or in the future when most of our contemporary (if not all of them) were single seated platforms ?



Specifically asked by the user, i presume it is on the pattern of F-16 D blk 52, SU-30.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

36 J10B , it would be wonderful if we can get these babies inducted 2013 

Imagine the impact that would have for our Air Space security. I do strongly feel that if we get transfer of technolgy of Chinese engine under licence that would be something because we can already assemble planes 

The engine would make Pakistan one of top Airforces in Asia

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## Storm Force

TOP AIR FORCES IN ASIA ????

36 J10B ??

I always loved the J10 design myself ( china,s very own euro canard) BUT get real with the impact plz fella 

if 36j10b CAN GIVE THAT LIFT whay will 

72 F15 stealth do for saudi 

40 F35 for israel 

126 rafael for ??? you know who 

100 F35 for TURKEY


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## Kompromat

Storm Force said:


> TOP AIR FORCES IN ASIA ????
> 
> 36 J10B ??
> 
> I always loved the J10 design myself ( china,s very own euro canard) BUT get real with the impact plz fella
> 
> if 36j10b CAN GIVE THAT LIFT whay will
> 
> 72 F15 stealth do for saudi
> 
> 40 F35 for israel
> 
> 126 rafael for ??? you know who
> 
> 100 F35 for TURKEY



PAF plans to acquire 150 J-10B units, ultimately.

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## MilSpec

Storm Force said:


> TOP *AIR FORCES IN ASIA* ????
> 
> 36 J10B ??
> 
> I always loved the J10 design myself ( china,s very own euro canard) BUT get real with the impact plz fella
> 
> if 36j10b CAN GIVE THAT LIFT whay will
> 
> 72 F15 stealth do for saudi
> 
> 40 F35 for israel
> 
> 126 rafael for ??? you know who
> 
> 100 F35 for TURKEY



F15SG for Singapore Airforce, 

Su30 MKM for Malaysia

Rafale's for UAE

F35 for japan


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## Storm Force

150 J10B will cost any nation $6billion and a full decade to achieve this event. 

For PAKISTAN to spend $6 billion on ONE single combat type IS the equivalent of INDIA spending $36 billon on MMRCA

LOOKING at the SIZE of the cost and PAKISTANS current social economic & political situation & then adding in their plans to induct 200 JFT and more awacs and more SAMS as well as their plans for their navy and army and NUCLEAR detterance 

I FEEL that nos of J10 will not be plausaible 

HAVING A REQUIREMENT and being able to forfill the NEED are two different things. 

eg IAF had required 250 FGFA but now have reduced ORDER to 144 AND WHO KNOWS this could reduce again.


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## AerospaceEngineer

DARKY said:


> Our L-band LRTR can track targets upto 1000km inside China even If stationed 500km inside Indian Border... and It can track objects as small as the ping-pong ball.





Sub Human indian troll, we meet yet again.

Your sub human country you call india can not even make a obslete LCA work and now you trolled again at China's jet engine.

I see your inferiorty complex at work yet again and your sub human low cast, low life indian nature. 

But that's ok, it is in your DNA. 

My suggestion to you indians, invest more money in T-50, a lot more. Because in another 10 years, we Chinese will provide Pakistan dozens if not hundreds of J-31. You know for one purpose and one purpose only, that is to kill you indians.

Hope you enjoy this peaceful time for now.

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