# Afzal khan and treachery of Shivaji



## Marwat Khan Lodhi

Afzal Khan was a powerful man of Afghan descent and was an experienced warrior, he was general of bijapur. He was much taller and strongly-built than Shivaji. He would attack shivaji and fail? no way. Pashtun custom of hugging men on hello cost him his life, shivaji stabbed him with his hidden dagger while hugging. Afzal khan was unarmed.
The urdu phrase "shivaji ka khanjar" means treachery

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## punit

Jaise ko taisa ! Brilliant work by Shivaji maharaj !

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## !eon

> shivaji ka khanjar


So from there came "بغل میں چھری منہ میں رام رام "

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## SarthakGanguly

!eon said:


> So from there came "بغل میں چھری منہ میں رام رام "


Exactly. You should have at least transliterated it. "Bagal mein churi, muh mein Ram nam." for the Indians and other non Urdu readers.

I consider Shivaji's act an exceptional strike. Great act

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## walwal

Long live Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj ! I hope you have done enough homework by reading history. 

Afzalkhan was put to rest in a tomb built upon orders of Great Maratha King Shivaji Maharaj. While his courtmen questioned on the decision, the Great King answered, with his (Afzal') death enemity has ended; he needs to be buried with full dignity and respect after performing religious rituals under Islam.

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## !eon

SarthakGanguly said:


> Exactly. You should have at least transliterated it. "Bagal mein churi, muh mein Ram nam." for the Indians and other non Urdu readers.
> 
> I consider Shivaji's act an exceptional strike. Great act


Everyone has access to google translation. 
Great act in yours but cowardly act in our traditions

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## Roybot

The scum bag got what he deserved.

In 1659, Afzal Khan led an army of about 10,000 elite troops and pursued Shivaji persistently, inflicting numerous casualties, which forced Shivaji's forces to take refuge in the hill forts.[5] *In a bid to force Shivaji to come out in open, he detoured to desecrate Hindu sacred places, including Pandharpur, the most important pilgrimage site in the Marathi-speaking region at the time. Such behavior was unprecedented for the Bijapuri forces, and alienated the local deshmukhs (revenue collectors).[6] He also captured Tuljapur, where his Adilshahi forces razed the statue of the Hindu Goddess Bhavani.*[7]

Oh how noble of him

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## dawn_news

Hindus admiring coward act of hindu king. Lol

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## Roybot

!eon said:


> Everyone has access to google translation.
> Great act in yours but cowardly act in our traditions



Yeah right.

I*n 1639, Afzal Khan had murdered Raja Kasturi Ranga after inviting him for a meeting where he could safely make a submission.[1] Therefore, Shivaji was wary of Afzal Khan's real intentions.* When Afzal Khan sent his envoy Krishnaji Bhaskar to Shivaji, Shivaji solemnly appealed to him as a Hindu priest to tell him if Afzal Khan was making any treacherous plans. According to the Maratha chronicles, Krishnaji hinted that Afzal Khan harbored mischief. Shivaji then sent his own envoy Pantaji Gopinath to Afzal, agreeing to a meeting; Pantaji's real mission was to find out the strength of Afzal's forces. Pantaji bribed some officials of Afzal Khan to learn that he was planning an attack on Shivaji.

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## SarthakGanguly

Nuri Natt said:


> Hindus admiring coward act of hindu king. Lol


This is the last time, I am telling you this. Read this three times so that it registers forever. 

Hindus are like this only. 



!eon said:


> Everyone has access to google translation.
> Great act in yours but cowardly act in our traditions


Read this above. We are Dharmics, mushriks. We are like this.

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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

SarthakGanguly said:


> Exactly. You should have at least transliterated it. "Bagal mein churi, muh mein Ram nam." for the Indians and other non Urdu readers.
> 
> I consider Shivaji's act an exceptional strike. Great act


It saved him the pain of losing thousands of lives in open battle, i guess every thing is fair in war......marathas were dangerous because they were good in guerrilla warfare and assassination attempts.

After death of afzal khan, shaista khan was sent to Deccan by Aurangzeb. Shivaji and many of his nearly 400 men disguised as the bridegroom's procession members entered Pune. Others entered in small parties dressed as laborers and soldiers of Maratha generals serving under Shaista Khan. After midnight, they raided the Nawab's compound and then entered the palace in an attempt to assassinate Shaista Khan. Shaista Khan was clearly unaware and unprepared. The Marathas broke into the courtyard of the palace and slaughtered the palace guards. Shaista Khan lost three fingers in a skirmish with Shivaji, while his son was killed in an encounter with the Marathas in the palace courtyard. Forty attendants and six women were also killed. Taking advantage of the confusion and darkness, the Marathas escaped the palace and Pune, despite the widespread camping of Mughal forces.



SarthakGanguly said:


> Exactly. You should have at least transliterated it. "Bagal mein churi, muh mein Ram nam." for the Indians and other non Urdu readers.
> 
> I consider Shivaji's act an exceptional strike. Great act


It saved him the pain of losing thousands of lives in open battle, i guess every thing is fair in war......marathas were dangerous because they were good in guerrilla warfare and assassination attempts.

After death of afzal khan, shaista khan was sent to Deccan by Aurangzeb. Shivaji and many of his nearly 400 men disguised as the bridegroom's procession members entered Pune. Others entered in small parties dressed as laborers and soldiers of Maratha generals serving under Shaista Khan. After midnight, they raided the Nawab's compound and then entered the palace in an attempt to assassinate Shaista Khan. Shaista Khan was clearly unaware and unprepared. The Marathas broke into the courtyard of the palace and slaughtered the palace guards. Shaista Khan lost three fingers in a skirmish with Shivaji, while his son was killed in an encounter with the Marathas in the palace courtyard. Forty attendants and six women were also killed. Taking advantage of the confusion and darkness, the Marathas escaped the palace and Pune, despite the widespread camping of Mughal forces.

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## !eon

Roybot said:


> Yeah right.
> 
> I*n 1639, Afzal Khan had murdered Raja Kasturi Ranga after inviting him for a meeting where he could safely make a submission.[1] Therefore, Shivaji was wary of Afzal Khan's real intentions.* When Afzal Khan sent his envoy Krishnaji Bhaskar to Shivaji, Shivaji solemnly appealed to him as a Hindu priest to tell him if Afzal Khan was making any treacherous plans. According to the Maratha chronicles, Krishnaji hinted that Afzal Khan harbored mischief. Shivaji then sent his own envoy Pantaji Gopinath to Afzal, agreeing to a meeting; Pantaji's real mission was to find out the strength of Afzal's forces. Pantaji bribed some officials of Afzal Khan to learn that he was planning an attack on Shivaji.


If he did again it is considered shameful act to kill your guest 
we never praise this


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## Roybot

It was agreed that the leaders would be unarmed, and each man would bring an envoy and two armed bodyguards: one would be a swordsman and another an archer. Afzal Khan's companions included Sayyid Banda, a distinguished military man.[9]

Shivaji, forewarned, wore armour under his clothes and a steel helmet under his turban. He carried a weapon called _wagh nakh_("tiger claws"), consisting of an iron finger-grip with four razor claws, which he concealed within his clenched fist. He also carried a stiletto-like thin dagger called the _bichu_ or Bichawa (scorpion). He was accompanied by his bodyguards Jiva Mahala and Sambhaji Kavji.[10]

*At the start of the meeting Afzal Khan graciously embraced Shivaji as per custom.[2] According to the Maratha chronicles, he then suddenly tightened his clasp, gripped Shivaji's neck in his left arm and struck him with a kitar. Shivaji, saved by his armor, recovered and counter-attacked Afzal Khan with wagh nakh, disemboweling him. He then stabbed Khan with his bichawa, and ran out of the tent towards his men.[1] The Persian language chronicle by Khafi Khan attributes the treachery to Shivaji instead.[11][12]*

Afzal Khan cried out and Sayyid Banda rushed to the scene and attacked Shivaji with his patta, cutting his turban. Shivaji's bodyguard Jiva Mahala intervened, chopping off Sayeed Banda' s right arm in a quick combat before killing him.[1] Meanwhile, Afzal Khan's bearers placed their wounded leader in his palki (litter vehicle), but they were attacked by Sambhaji Kavji. Sambhaji eventually killed Afzal Khan by decapitating him.[1]

Shivaji then reached the Pratapgad Fort, and signaled his waiting forces hiding in surrounding forest, to launch a surprise attack. Afzal Khan's army was routed in subsequent Battle of Pratapgad, though his son managed to escape. Later, severed head of Afzal Khan was sent to Rajgad as exhibit to Jijabai, Shivaji's mother.[13]

The story of the encounter between Afzal Khan and Shivaji is the subject of several films, plays, school textbooks and village ballads in Maharashtra.[6]



!eon said:


> If he did again it is considered shameful act to kill your guest
> we never praise this



Oh c'mon all your so called heroes have committed many such treacherous acts, and you guys have named your missiles after them. Stop acting so sanctimonious.

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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

Nuri Natt said:


> Hindus admiring coward act of hindu king. Lol


Shut the fck up @shan. I didnt open this thread to bash hindus. It is about particular persons in a particular incident. Muslims also committed treachery at various occasions

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## !eon

Yeah only Hindus were and are angels 



Roybot said:


> It was agreed that the leaders would be unarmed, and each man would bring an envoy and two armed bodyguards: one would be a swordsman and another an archer. Afzal Khan's companions included Sayyid Banda, a distinguished military man.[9]
> 
> Shivaji, forewarned, wore armour under his clothes and a steel helmet under his turban. He carried a weapon called _wagh nakh_("tiger claws"), consisting of an iron finger-grip with four razor claws, which he concealed within his clenched fist. He also carried a stiletto-like thin dagger called the _bichu_ or Bichawa (scorpion). He was accompanied by his bodyguards Jiva Mahala and Sambhaji Kavji.[10]
> 
> *At the start of the meeting Afzal Khan graciously embraced Shivaji as per custom.[2] According to the Maratha chronicles, he then suddenly tightened his clasp, gripped Shivaji's neck in his left arm and struck him with a kitar. Shivaji, saved by his armor, recovered and counter-attacked Afzal Khan with wagh nakh, disemboweling him. He then stabbed Khan with his bichawa, and ran out of the tent towards his men.[1] The Persian language chronicle by Khafi Khan attributes the treachery to Shivaji instead.[11][12]*
> 
> Afzal Khan cried out and Sayyid Banda rushed to the scene and attacked Shivaji with his patta, cutting his turban. Shivaji's bodyguard Jiva Mahala intervened, chopping off Sayeed Banda' s right arm in a quick combat before killing him.[1] Meanwhile, Afzal Khan's bearers placed their wounded leader in his palki (litter vehicle), but they were attacked by Sambhaji Kavji. Sambhaji eventually killed Afzal Khan by decapitating him.[1]
> 
> Shivaji then reached the Pratapgad Fort, and signaled his waiting forces hiding in surrounding forest, to launch a surprise attack. Afzal Khan's army was routed in subsequent Battle of Pratapgad, though his son managed to escape. Later, severed head of Afzal Khan was sent to Rajgad as exhibit to Jijabai, Shivaji's mother.[13]
> 
> The story of the encounter between Afzal Khan and Shivaji is the subject of several films, plays, school textbooks and village ballads in Maharashtra.[6]
> 
> 
> 
> Oh c'mon all your so called heroes have committed many such treacherous acts, and you guys have named your missiles after them. Stop acting so sanctimonious.


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## himalayah

How can a son of the soil, native of the land possibly be treacherous towards a farangi afghan? These people don't belong here anyway and deserved to be shipped back to their deserts of khorasan, where they can live in peace with other disgusting cockroaches of their kind. 

Har Har Mahadev. Vande Mataram

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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

walwal said:


> Long live Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj ! I hope you have done enough homework by reading history.
> 
> Afzalkhan was put to rest in a tomb built upon orders of Great Maratha King Shivaji Maharaj. While his courtmen questioned on the decision, the Great King answered, with his (Afzal') death enemity has ended; he needs to be buried with full dignity and respect after performing religious rituals under Islam.


He was buried with honour because treacherous shivaji was guilty of killing a noble and brave man


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## Roybot

Pak-one said:


> He was buried with honour because treacherous shivaji was guilty of killing a noble and brave man



As per Marathi literature it was Afzal Khan who attacked first. So why should we believe whats written in the Persian literature instead of believing our own version

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## walwal

!eon said:


> If he did again it is considered shameful act to kill your guest
> we never praise this


Poor homework once again !!!!!!!!!! ch ch ch ch

Shaistakhan deserved what he got. Humiliation. Worst than death !!! He had overpowered the Shivaji Maharaj' place of residence in Pune. That too along with a big _janankhanaa. _I hope you understand what it means. What treatment do you expect for such cockroaches ? Do you pest them or offer comforts ???


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## SarthakGanguly

Pak-one said:


> It saved him the pain of losing thousands of lives in open battle, i guess every thing is fair in war......marathas were dangerous because they were good in guerrilla warfare and assassination attempts.
> 
> After death of afzal khan, shaista khan was sent to Deccan by Aurangzeb. Shivaji and many of his nearly 400 men disguised as the bridegroom's procession members entered Pune. Others entered in small parties dressed as laborers and soldiers of Maratha generals serving under Shaista Khan. After midnight, they raided the Nawab's compound and then entered the palace in an attempt to assassinate Shaista Khan. Shaista Khan was clearly unaware and unprepared. The Marathas broke into the courtyard of the palace and slaughtered the palace guards. Shaista Khan lost three fingers in a skirmish with Shivaji, while his son was killed in an encounter with the Marathas in the palace courtyard. Forty attendants and six women were also killed. Taking advantage of the confusion and darkness, the Marathas escaped the palace and Pune, despite the widespread camping of Mughal forces.
> 
> 
> It saved him the pain of losing thousands of lives in open battle, i guess every thing is fair in war......marathas were dangerous because they were good in guerrilla warfare and assassination attempts.
> 
> After death of afzal khan, shaista khan was sent to Deccan by Aurangzeb. Shivaji and many of his nearly 400 men disguised as the bridegroom's procession members entered Pune. Others entered in small parties dressed as laborers and soldiers of Maratha generals serving under Shaista Khan. After midnight, they raided the Nawab's compound and then entered the palace in an attempt to assassinate Shaista Khan. Shaista Khan was clearly unaware and unprepared. The Marathas broke into the courtyard of the palace and slaughtered the palace guards. Shaista Khan lost three fingers in a skirmish with Shivaji, while his son was killed in an encounter with the Marathas in the palace courtyard. Forty attendants and six women were also killed. Taking advantage of the confusion and darkness, the Marathas escaped the palace and Pune, despite the widespread camping of Mughal forces.


You just increased my respect for Shivaji Maharaj  Thanks

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## walwal

Roybot said:


> As per Marathi literature it was Afzal Khan who attacked first. So why should we believe whats written in the Persian literature instead of believing our own version


Absolutely. Afzal tried thrashing Shivaji with dagger, which didn't work because Shivaji wore armour jacket based on the tip-off

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## naveen mishra

*Sixty Graves of The Wives of Afzal *
not only that he kill his 63 wives.....before going on battlefield.......he was so cruel 









...

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## walwal

Pak-one said:


> He was buried with honour because treacherous shivaji was guilty of killing a noble and brave man



I feel sorry for you ! That's all I can sum up. Despite being staunch Hindu at heart, he was the king of masses where everyone was allowed to freely practice his / her faith and highest amount of respect towards women folk.

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## INDIC

Nuri Natt said:


> Hindus admiring coward act of hindu king. Lol



People who never ruled their own land shouldn't comment.

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## !eon

walwal said:


> Poor homework once again !!!!!!!!!! ch ch ch ch
> 
> Shaistakhan deserved what he got. Humiliation. Worst than death !!! He had overpowered the Shivaji Maharaj' place of residence in Pune. That too along with a big _janankhanaa. _I hope you understand what it means. What treatment do you expect for such cockroaches ? Do you pest them or offer comforts ???


Afzal khan and treachery of Shivaji | Page 2
Angels busted ! praising cowardly act of a coward

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## IND151

Pak-one said:


> Afzal Khan was a powerful man of Afghan descent and was an experienced warrior, he was general of bijapur. He was much taller and strongly-built than Shivaji. He would attack shivaji and fail? no way. Pashtun custom of hugging men on hello cost him his life, shivaji stabbed him with his hidden dagger while hugging. Afzal khan was unarmed.
> The urdu phrase "shivaji ka khanjar" means treachery



Spies of shivaji maharaj had confirmed that Afzal kahn wanted to kill him during visit.

Afzal Khan had already killed an hindu king kasturi ranga when came to visit him for talk.

While visiting Afzal Khan, Shivaji Maharaj wore armour, thus Afzal Kahn was unable to kill him; after that Shivaji Maharaj returned the favor. 



> Shivaji sent an emissary to Afzal Khan, stating that he did not want to fight and was ready for peace. A meeting was arranged between Shivaji and Afzal Khan at a shamiyana (highly decorated tent) at the foothills of Pratapgad. It was agreed that the two would meet unarmed, but would bring ten personal bodyguards each. Nine of these guards would remain 'one arrow-shot' away from the pair, while a single bodyguard would wait outside the tent. Shivaji Maharaj chose Sambhaji Kondhalkar, Jiva Mahala, Siddi Ibrahim, Kataji Ingle, Kondaji Kank, Yesaji Kank, Krishnaji Gayakwad, Surji Katake, Visaji Murambak & Sambhaji Karvar for the meet. Nevertheless, both were prepared for treachery: *Afzal Khan hid a katyar (a small dagger) in his coat, and Shivaji wore armour underneath his clothes and carried a concealed wagh nakha in one hand*.
> 
> As the two men entered the tent, the 7' tall Khan embraced Shivaji. Then treacherous Khan swiftly drew his hidden dagger and stabbed Shivaji in the back. The dagger was deflected by Shivaji's armour. The Persian language chronicle by Khafi Khan attributes the treachery to Shivaji instead. Shivaji responded by disemboweling the Khan with a single stroke of his _wagh nakhi_. Khan rushed outside shouting for help, and was defended by Krishanaji Bhaskar Kulkarni, his emissary, who was himself then killed by Shivaji. Kulkarni managed to injure Shivaji. Thereupon Afzal Khan's bodyguard Sayyed Banda attacked Shivaji with swords but Jiva Mahala, Shivaji's personal bodyguard fatally struck him down, cutting off one of Sayyed Banda's hands with a Dandpatta (Pata- a medieval weapon). (This event is remembered in a Marathi idiom: _Hota Jiva Mhanun Vachala Shiva_ - 'Because there was Jiva, Shiva lived'). Afzal Khan managed to hold his gushing entrails and hurtled, faint and bleeding, outside the tent and threw himself into his palanquin. The bearers hastily lifted their charge and began moving rapidly away down the slope. Sambhaji Kavji Kondhalkar, Shivaji's lieutenant and one of the accompanying guards, gave chase and beheaded Afzal Khan. The severed head was later sent to Rajgad to be shown to Shivaji's mother, Jijabai. She had long wanted vengeance for the deliberate maltreatment of Shahaji (Shivaji's father) while a captive of Afzal Khan, and for his role in the death of her elder son, Sambhaji. Shivaji sped up the slope towards the fortress and his lieutenants ordered cannons to be fired. It was a signal to his infantry, hidden in the densely forested valley, to raid the Adilshahi forces.



https://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&r...woCgCw&usg=AFQjCNFuJu2RNAe8NJzyUV1DSfNRmV_zDg

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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

Roybot said:


> As per Marathi literature it was Afzal Khan who attacked first. So why should we believe whats written in the Persian literature instead of believing our own version


 And we believe in our own version



Roybot said:


> As per Marathi literature it was Afzal Khan who attacked first. So why should we believe whats written in the Persian literature instead of believing our own version


 And we believe in our own version


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## SarthakGanguly

Pak-one said:


> And we believe in our own version
> And we believe in our own version


1. Even if your version is true, we will support Shivaji.
2. Good for you.

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## IND151

Roybot said:


> Yeah right.
> 
> I*n 1639, Afzal Khan had murdered Raja Kasturi Ranga after inviting him for a meeting where he could safely make a submission.[1] Therefore, Shivaji was wary of Afzal Khan's real intentions.* When Afzal Khan sent his envoy Krishnaji Bhaskar to Shivaji, Shivaji solemnly appealed to him as a Hindu priest to tell him if Afzal Khan was making any treacherous plans. According to the Maratha chronicles, Krishnaji hinted that Afzal Khan harbored mischief. Shivaji then sent his own envoy Pantaji Gopinath to Afzal, agreeing to a meeting; Pantaji's real mission was to find out the strength of Afzal's forces. Pantaji bribed some officials of Afzal Khan to learn that he was planning an attack on Shivaji.



Plus Afzal Kahn had also made sure that Shivaji's elder brother, Sambhaji will not get reinforcements during battle, resulting in his death. (Sambhaji was an adilshai sardar.)

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## Roybot

Pak-one said:


> And we believe in our own version
> 
> 
> And we believe in our own version



Fair enough, to each his own. As far as we are concerned Afzal Khan was a treachorous mercenary, and got what his deserved, his head chopped off his body.

Atleast we gave him a proper burial unlike what was meted out to Prithviraj Chauhan, that too mind you after he had pardoned Ghori who lost in the first battle of tarain. Now that right there is the epitome of skulduggery.

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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

himalayah said:


> How can a son of the soil, native of the land possibly be treacherous towards a farangi afghan?


Stupid and illogical excuse, being native doesn't stop you from committing treachery....
Marathas didnt care about honour and all that stuff like rajputs......their way of fighting much powerful mughals required them to adopt tactics like this.


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## himalayah

Pak-one said:


> Stupid and illogical excuse, being native doesn't stop you from committing treachery....
> Marathas didnt care about honour and all that stuff like rajputs......their way of fighting much powerful mughals required them to adopt tactics like this.



No doubt, they were masters of guerilla warfare, much like your tribal people were and still are now. You mean there has never been any treachery amongst Pashtun tribes? What were khattaks doing? Your whole history is littered with one treachery after another. These are all historical events for Indians to consolidate their self rule, after a 500 year shameful period when it was lost to outsiders. As they say, all's fair in love and war. If Shivaji didn't slaughter this guy, then he would have killed us all the same. Just he was not intelligent enough to hide his plans until the moment required.


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## ExtraOdinary

Afzal Khan was a sorry excuse for a human being, got what he deserved, Chatrapati Maharaj ki Jai

*




*
*The last cries - The Hindu*

*BIJAPUR: Saat Kabar silently bears the dark saga of 60 wives dying at the hands of a possessive army chief-husband*
My last halt in Bijapur turns out to be a bit of a grave destination and the setting of a cold-blooded tale. It is well past five in the evening, and I have been on a whirlwind tour of the heritage town where almost every monument is a mahal or a mosque or a mausoleum. But I have not had my fill yet.

The auto driver is a bit skeptical when I tell him I want to head to Saat Kabar. He tries to dissuade me. “There is no road. You may have to walk. The auto cannot go there,” he says. He warns me it is rather isolated and there will be no one around. But I refuse to give up. We drive down, leaving the dusty town and hit the highway. A detour takes us across a few scattered homes as we watch some boys play cricket on grounds. The auto stops at a dead-end. All I see in front of me are just a bit of dense undergrowth and a clump of bushes. There is no path. I walk behind the auto driver looking out for snakes. On one side is sheer wilderness and on the other, lush fields.

We keep walking and suddenly I spy the outline of a monument peeping at us through the trees. Brick red, it seems to be on the other side of a high compound wall with no access. I stop and look at it towering in front of me, the unkempt branches of the trees snaking towards it, shrouding it from public view.

It is eerie, as I wonder if this is the Saat Kabar or the 60 graves of the murdered wives of Afzal Khan, the army chief of Adil Shahi II. The graves narrate the gruesome fate of these women who were killed by their own husband. The tragic story is set in the 17th Century, when Chatrapathi Shivaji wages war against Adil Shah II. Afzal Khan leads the forces, but is distracted by an astrologer who tells him he will not survive the battle. The jealous and possessive commander decides to kill all his 60 wives lest they remarry after the war. So, he beckons them to an isolated spot and pushes them into a well. One of them tries to escape, but is captured and killed as well. And, I’m standing in the middle of nowhere looking for those 60 graves.

Suddenly, my auto driver calls out to me. He is ahead of me, near a clearing, and I make my way through the shrubs only to see a vast open space. There lie several graves, made of black stone, arranged neatly in rows. Some of these stones are broken, open to the skies. Afzal Khan apparently wanted to be buried near his wives as well, but he never returned from the battlefield.

The silence is ominous here, almost echoing the last cries of the women who were pushed to their death. I feel a shiver, and hurry back to the safe confines of civilisation.

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## Roybot

Pak-one said:


> Stupid and illogical excuse, being native doesn't stop you from committing treachery....
> Marathas didnt care about honour and all that stuff like rajputs......their way of fighting much powerful mughals required them to adopt tactics like this.



Yeah all that honor an stuff was the reason why Prithviraj Chouhan pardoned and let Mohammed Ghori a war prisoner go, and what did it get him?

Honor and respect is for the people who deserve it, and Afzal Khan wasn't one of them.

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## Jaggu

Pak-one said:


> Afzal Khan was a powerful man of Afghan descent and was an experienced warrior, he was general of bijapur. He was much taller and strongly-built than Shivaji. He would attack shivaji and fail? no way. Pashtun custom of hugging men on hello cost him his life, shivaji stabbed him with his hidden dagger while hugging. Afzal khan was unarmed.
> The urdu phrase "shivaji ka khanjar" means treachery




See you have to understand is that the Marathas were a different type of warrior nation from the tradition Kshatriya/Rajput warriors. While the Rajputs played by the rules of the ancient traditions of India, which is largely the reason why they always lost to central asian warriors. The Marathas did not observe ancient Kshatriya warrior codes. If they needed to break rules in order to win they will. Afzal Khan was a strongly built Pathan, he did not require weapons to kill a smaller man like Shivaji. All Afzal Khan needed to do was bear hug him and he would have crushed Shivaji. But Shivaji was smart, he knew what will happen and he came prepared with a hidden dagger. The Marathas were a new type of warriors unlike anything India had seen before.

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## Srinivas

@Pak-one At that time muslim rulers are seen as invaders who destroyed temples, raped lakhs and massacred many Hindus.

The treachery is there from both sides and Chatrapathi Shivaji won that game 

I would suggest you to change the title to "Chatrapathi Shivaji". He did it for the people of India.

This guy did what is needed to protect his home land, this guy is a symbol of Hindu resistance and the title "Maharaj Shivaji" is a very apt.



Pak-one said:


> Afzal Khan was a powerful man of Afghan descent and was an experienced warrior, he was general of bijapur. He was much taller and strongly-built than Shivaji. He would attack shivaji and fail? no way. Pashtun custom of hugging men on hello cost him his life, shivaji stabbed him with his hidden dagger while hugging. Afzal khan was unarmed.
> The urdu phrase "shivaji ka khanjar" means treachery



According to the legend Afzal Khan also tried to kill Shivaji in during the hug with a knife, But Shivaji had an Armour which protected him.

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## jandk

Roybot said:


> Yeah all that honor an stuff was the reason why Prithviraj Chouhan pardoned and let Mohammed Ghori a war prisoner go, and what did it get him?
> 
> Honor and respect is for the people who deserve it, and Afzal Khan wasn't one of them.



The pitfall of Indian warriors was their honour. Look at the turkics or afghanis. MOst were barbarians and did not give a damn about honour. We should have learned from them.

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## AUSTERLITZ

Pak-one said:


> Afzal Khan was a powerful man of Afghan descent and was an experienced warrior, he was general of bijapur. He was much taller and strongly-built than Shivaji. He would attack shivaji and fail? no way. Pashtun custom of hugging men on hello cost him his life, shivaji stabbed him with his hidden dagger while hugging. Afzal khan was unarmed.
> The urdu phrase "shivaji ka khanjar" means treachery



Afzal khan himself had murdered raja kasturi sanga in a similar meting promising safe conduct.He also tried to stab shivaji here but failed due to shivaji wearing armour inside his clothes.(acc to maratha version,but eniterly plausible due to afzal's record of treachery)However he met his match and found what what goes around comes around.

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## himalayah

Roybot said:


> Yeah all that honor an stuff was the reason why Prithviraj Chouhan pardoned and let Mohammed Ghori a war prisoner go, and what did it get him?
> 
> Honor and respect is for the people who deserve it, and Afzal Khan wasn't one of them.



You know I had always thought that Pathans were one of the few muslim people who had principles and stood by their words. But then I realized this is all just a myth to make themselves feel better. Like they made up that Pathans were praised by Alexander's army when he came to this region, despite no such account existing with the Greeks. They didn't even exist in this region until they came down from north-Western Tarim basin during the White Hun invasions of 5th-6th century A.D. 

The more I read, the more I found out that other than Sher Shah Suri, all other people with origins over there have been the most opportunistic, dishonourable, vile creatures, who would sell their mother and sisters for few ounce of gold and backstab anyone that showed mercy to them. They deserved far worse than what they got.

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## MilSpec

Pak-one said:


> Stupid and illogical excuse, being native doesn't stop you from committing treachery....
> Marathas didnt care about honour and all that stuff like rajputs......their way of fighting much powerful mughals required them to adopt tactics like this.


From What I can remember we read in history,

Afzal Khan's intent was to Squeze and Suffocate Chatrapati Shivaji maharaj, this intent was known to Shivaji and thus he had prepared for such situation. When Afzal khan started tightening this grip, Shivaji Maharaj took countermeasure, which ended Afzal khan's Life.

As far as Shivaji Maharaj is concerned, He is the architect of the modern India... To me no leader including Ashoka or Chandragupta comes close to his courage and vision.

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## Android

Shivaji's assassination of Afzal Khan and his chopping of finger of Shaista Khan both mission accomplished inside the very own house of his enemies shows what a great tactician, strategist and warrior Shivaji Maharaj was. The way such daring acts were carefully planned and so smoothly executed is simply jaw dropping.



Pak-one said:


> Marathas didnt care about honour and all that stuff like rajputs



lol just imagine if Afghans mujahedeens instead of adopting guerrilla tactics started to care about warrior code and honour and decided to face Soviet forces head on face to face. Do you think they would have lasted even for a day.

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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

Android said:


> Shivaji's assassination of Afzal Khan and his chopping of finger of Shaista Khan both mission accomplished inside the very own house of his enemies shows what a great tactician, strategist and warrior Shivaji Maharaj was. The way such daring acts were carefully planned and so smoothly executed is simply jaw dropping.
> 
> 
> 
> lol just imagine if Afghans mujahedeens instead of adopting guerrilla tactics started to care about warrior code and honour and decided to face Soviet forces head on face to face. Do you think they would have lasted even for a day.


That is exactly my point. when Afghans/pashtuns faced much powerful enemies, super powers, like british empire, soviets and america.....they had to adopt to unconventional warfare and it worked......marathas were in similar situation and it worked for hem.
note that Pashtuns also rose in rebellion against aurangzaib, they continously fought for 12 years against mughals but failed......because they didnt use tactics and warfare of marathas.......marathas were perhaps first guerrilla fighters of indian history



jandk said:


> The pitfall of Indian warriors was their honour. Look at the turkics or afghanis. MOst were barbarians and did not give a damn about honour. We should have learned from them.


What exactly is your definition of honor?......there were certain rules of engagement and warfare in all nations whether they were afghans, arabs, turks or rajputs.....All armies used tactics and strategies........but some things were considered low such a attacking at night and killing sleeping soldiers (during war at evening and night, there always used be ceasefire), using poisonous arrows,stabbing from back, killing guest etc
Standing like statues and taking on the fires or arrows was not honor, indians didnt fight like that......they used every strategy and tactic on the filed which were known to them....

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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

himalayah said:


> No doubt, they were masters of guerilla warfare, much like your tribal people were and still are now. You mean there has never been any treachery amongst Pashtun tribes? What were khattaks doing? Your whole history is littered with one treachery after another. These are all historical events for Indians to consolidate their self rule, after a 500 year shameful period when it was lost to outsiders. As they say, all's fair in love and war. If Shivaji didn't slaughter this guy, then he would have killed us all the same. Just he was not intelligent enough to hide his plans until the moment required.



Pashtuns have certain rules, honour code.......have you heard about "nanawatay"? according to it you are supposed to give protection to even your enemy if he asks for it.....A guest with asylum is protected at all cost even if your entire clan is annihilated.....few centuries ago my tribe was nearly annihilated by ghilzais after refusing to hand over their culprit who was under our protection.....

But yes ambushes and surprise attacks are part of our warfare even since British came to our lands, before that we used to fight in conventional way.......taliban have adopted guerrilla warfare of new level, terrorism is added to it.



himalayah said:


> No doubt, they were masters of guerilla warfare, much like your tribal people were and still are now. You mean there has never been any treachery amongst Pashtun tribes? What were khattaks doing? Your whole history is littered with one treachery after another. These are all historical events for Indians to consolidate their self rule, after a 500 year shameful period when it was lost to outsiders. As they say, all's fair in love and war. If Shivaji didn't slaughter this guy, then he would have killed us all the same. Just he was not intelligent enough to hide his plans until the moment required.



Pashtuns have certain rules, honour code.......have you heard about "nanawatay"? according to it you are supposed to give protection to even your enemy if he asks for it.....A guest with asylum is protected at all cost even if your entire clan is annihilated.....few centuries ago my tribe was nearly annihilated by ghilzais after refusing to hand over their culprit who was under our protection.....

But yes ambushes and surprise attacks are part of our warfare even since British came to our lands, before that we used to fight in conventional way.......taliban have adopted guerrilla warfare of new level, terrorism is added to it.

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## SarthakGanguly

This is a question of relativism. 

For you Shivaji is a treacherous murderer. For us he is among the best rulers of our country.  
Only difference is you have remained firm in your convictions while some of us remained confused.

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## Sam Manekshaw

The sky was smiling on the fort of Shivneri,
A child was coming to bring joy and glory
The heir of Shahaji Bhosale’s clan would create history
This epic is Chhatrapati Shivaji’s amazing story.

Trumpets and drums told the skies and the earth
Jijabai has given birth, Jijabai has given birth!
The fort was smiling with delight and mirth
Hail the noble birth, hail the noble birth!

Shahaji and Jijabai’s son safe in his bastion
He will create a nation, he will create a nation.
Shivaji will live a life as a divine mission
His people’s liberation, his people’s liberation.

Jijabai, Shivaji’s mother was his real guru
Taught him to be true, taught him to be true.
Growing fast his knowledge will accrue
Soon had a motley crew, soon had a motley crew.

The motley crew would roam the local hill and forest
He would not rest, he would not rest.
Got knowledge of the land from the best
All comrades abreast, all comrades abreast.

1639, Bangalore to meet new teachers
Sambhaji, Ekoji his brothers, Sambhaji, Ekoji his brothers
Trained as a courtiers and fighting warriors
The young leaders, the young leaders.

Shivaji at thirteen a new stage of life
Saibai his first wife, Saibai his first wife,
Personal life was second to wars and strife
But that was rife, but that was rife.

At fourteen back to Pune with the royal seal
Council of ministers to deal, council of ministers to deal.
Only sixteen, Shivaji obtained Fort Torna by appeal
Swaraj bells begin to peal, Swaraj bells begin to peal.

Adilshah asked Baji Ghorpade to detain Shahaji
Could not contain Shivaji, Could not contain Shivaji.
Farad Khan marches to Bangalore against Sambhaji
Fateh Khan against Shivaji, Fateh Khan against Shivaji.

There were pitched battles grueling and gory
The brothers tasted victory, the brothers tasted victory.
How they got Shahaji freedom is quite a story
Brother were basking in glory, brother were basking in glory.

Shivaji had petitioned Emperor Shahjahan’s son
Murad Baksh governor of Deccan, Murad Baksh governor of Deccan.
Pledged loyalty to the Mughals as a condition
All for Shahaji’s redemption, all for Shahaji’s redemption.

The Mughals pressurized for Shahaji’s detention to cease
Adilshah had to please, Adilshah had to please.
Surrender forts Kondhana, Bangalore and Kandarpi to appease
Shahaji’s release, Shahaji’s release.

Afzal Khan came to put down Shivaji’s insurrection
Started temple desecration, started temple desecration.
Hoping to bring Shivaji to the plains in indignation
Khan hoped easy annihilation, hoped easy annihilation.

Smart Shivaji understood Khan’s machinations
Carefully weighed the options, carefully weighed the options.
Agreed to meet in the mountains for diplomatic negotiations
Meeting in isolation, meeting in isolation.

November 10, 1659 the day of convention
Important discussion, important discussion.
Shivaji and his ministers had apprehension
About Khan’s intention, about Khan’s intention.

Base of the Pratapgad plateau the meeting place
Diplomatic style and grace, diplomatic style and grace.
Two leaders to meet each other face to face
Bodyguards behind a pace, bodyguards behind a pace.

Shivaji saw Goddess Bhavani in a vision
Divine revelation, divine revelation.
Goddess Bhavani promised full protection
Winning the confrontation, winning the confrontation.

Afzal Khan tried to ensure Shivaji’s end
Shivaji must defend, Shivaji must to defend.
Tearing out the gut of Khan, Shivaji has to attend
To ensure Khan’s end, to ensure Khan’s end.

Battle of Pratapgad began in earnest
Kanoji Jedhe started the tempest, Kanoji Jedhe started the tempest.
Moropant Pingale and Netaji Palkar as Generals the best
3000 soldiers laid to rest, 3000 soldiers laid to rest.

Goliath, the Emperor in Delhi was livid
Shivaji was the David, Shivaji was the David.
Bijapur attacked to thwart Shivaji’s bid
But success hid, but success hid.

Bijapur forces were decimated in defeat
Maratha’s what a feat, Maratha’s what a feat.
Battle of Kolhapur, Bijapur forces had to retreat
Shivaji led the beat, Shivaji led the beat.

This unlikely victory made Shivaji a hero of Maratha folklore
Celebrations galore, celebrations galore.
Captured weapons, horses, armor and much more
Too much to keep score, too much to keep score.

Mughals called Shivaji a mountain rat
But he is a cool cat, but he is a cool cat.
Emperor Aurangzeb was preparing tit for tat
Shivaji is planning for that, Shivaji is planning for that.

Adilshah gave Gen. Siddhi Johar his order
Attack the southern border, attack the southern border.
Hoping to create total chaos and disorder,
Mughals attack northern border, attack northern border.

Jasvantrao Dalvi and Suryarao Surve gave support
To Siddhi Johor’s effort, to Siddhi Johor’s effort.
They besieged Shivaji’s camp at Panhala fort
Shivaji needs effort, Shivaji needs effort.

Shivaji was the Maratha pride
Now besieged from all side, now besieged from all side.
He took the events calmly in his stride
Must escape not hide, Must escape not hide.

East west north south have enemy cover
Death or defeat hover, Death or defeat hover.
Suddenly, daring and impossible ideas flower
Trick the enemy power, trick the enemy power.

Messages to Siddhi Johor were about conceding
This news was relaxing, this news was relaxing.
They had no idea, Shivaji was deceiving
Planned escape in offing, escape in offing.

Shivaji had planned for this kind of trouble
Use a body double, use a body double.
Pretending to be Shivaji, Shiva Kashid was capable
Escape plan workable, escape plan workable.

The dangerous mission began on a stormy July night
Decoy group took flight, decoy group took flight.
Only to get caught by Johor’s soldier without a fight
Plan worked alright, plan worked alright.

This diversion was just helped Shivaji escape
News left soldier’s agape, news left soldiers agape.
Shivaji quickly moved through a dense cape
Great escape, great escape.

Baji Prabhu and his band ready to test fate
Even death will wait, even death will wait.
For seven hours they fought straight
Even death will wait, even death will wait.

The brave band fought with great desire
Not to tire not to tire.
Hearing the cannons signal fire
Success acquire, success acquire.

Shivaji in Vishalgad Fort is safe and sound
Baji and 300 bodies found, Baji and 300 bodies found.
Even in death may such patriots abound
In death no turn around, in death no turn around.

Kartalab Khan, was sent to Konkan region
Shaista Khan’s mission, Shaista Khan’s mission.
Capture forts to bring Shivaji’s submission,
Shivaji had no such intention, Shivaji had no such intention.

Kartalab Khan left his camp with 30,000 soldier force.
Mughals took circuitous course, Mughals took circuitous course.
Hoped to surprise and trap Shivaji without recourse
Shivaji thought on course, Shivaji thought on course.

At Umber Khind, Shivaji led a unit of elite cavalry
Other three sides light infantry, other three sides light infantry.
What a sight of such marvelous gallantry
Did not forget chivalry, did not forget chivalry.

A lady commander advised Kartalab Khan to accept defeat
Compromise and retreat, compromise and retreat.
Capturing all the supplies, arms and assets is no mean feat.
Women unmolested a noble feat, women unmolested a noble feat.

Bijapur and Delhi joint forces were on the roll
Defeating Shivaji the only goal, defeating Shivaji the only goal.
The Mughals wanted absolute control
Behaving like a troll, behaving like a troll.

Shaista khan’s army was well equipped and vast
Maratha’s would not last, Maratha’s would not last.
Khan’s army captured territory real fast
People were aghast, people were aghast.

For total control there is a bit of hindrance
Fort Chakan’s resistance, Fort Chakan’s resistance.
Odd against them still going the distance
Without any assistance, without any assistance.

Explosives now breach the outer wall
Beginning of the fall, beginning of the fall.
Possibility of holding out began to pall
Surrender was the call, surrender was the call.

Finally Commander Firangoji Narsala was caught
How bravely he fought, how bravely he fought.
Even in defeat Firangoji loyalty could not be bought
Just give it a thought, just give it a thought.

Shaista Khan controlled Pune under tight security
It was Shivaji’s city, it was Shivaji’s city.
Shivaji would attack Khan in Lal Mahal with alacrity
Shivaji was very gritty, Shivaji was very gritty.

Maratha’s entered Pune using a wedding party as cover
Plan no one would discover, Plan no one would discover.
Lightning moves the place guards could not recover
For Khan it was over, for Khan it was over.

Shivaji and Shaista Khan came face to face
Khan Begum his only brace, Khan Begum his only brace.
She blew out the lamp for Khan to escape without a trace
Brave general what disgrace, brave general what disgrace.

The mighty Shaista Khan managed to save his life
Because of his wife, because of his wife.
But Shivaji severed Khan’s three fingers in the strife
Ignoble defeat cuts like a knife, ignoble defeat cuts like a knife.

Surat was a wealthy port and trading city
Poor defenses what a pity, Poor defenses what a pity.
Shivaji asked for a tribute to grow the kitty
Expected some honesty, expected some honesty.

The Mughal commander hid in his fort, a big blunder
Emissary tries murder, emissary tries murder.
Shivaji decides to stop talk and start the plunder
Surat city goes under, Surat city goes under.

Charitable and missionary men were left alone
But Surat stripped to bone, but Surat stripped to bone.
Before Delhi got the news, Shivaji left the looted zone
Surprise the new war tone, surprise the new war tone.

Aurangzeb had decided to tackle Shivaji outright
Sent Raja Jai Singh to fight, sent Raja Jai Singh to fight,
Swiftly he captured vast territory to Emperors delight
Shivaji had to be contrite, Shivaji had to be contrite.

Shivaji signed a treaty causing him great pain
With eye on long term gain, with eye on long term gain.
Supportive followers helped Shivaji sustain
And avoiding strain, and avoiding strain.

As per treaty had to give up large parts of his nation
And hefty compensation, and hefty compensation.
Son Sambhaji as a courtier to take up Agra station
Shivaji in precarious position, Shivaji in precarious position.

The Emperor invited Shivaji for a royal meeting
Something was cooking, something was cooking.
Planned to use Shivaji in Afghan area consolidation
Put Shivaji away without hesitation, away without hesitation.

In the court Shivaji was relegated to the back
His dignity under attack, His dignity under attack.
Shivaji stormed out at this insult never looking back
Left with his pack, Left with his pack.

Emperor Aurangzeb made clear his intention
Shivaji in house detention, Shivaji in house detention.
It was testing time for the Maratha nation
Prayed for salvation, prayed for salvation.

Planning to escape became the main business
So feigned fatal illness, so feigned fatal illness.
Sent back his followers so as to impress
Disease was in progress, disease was in progress.

Had to keep his captors in confusion
Asked for strange permission, asked for strange permission.
Seeking blessing from holy men was the permitted mission
Hoping divine intervention, hoping divine intervention.

Escaped from detention hiding in a sweetmeat carton,
Both father and son, both father and son.
Shivaji spreads rumor to create grand confusion,
About death of the son, about death of the son.

Shivaji quickly left for his Deccan homeland
Joined by his trusted band, joined by his trusted band.
Shivaji planned to take a decisive stand
Regaining his motherland, regaining his motherland.

Uneasy truce between Mughals and Maratha’s was broken
The sahyadri lion had spoken, the sahyadri lion had spoken.
Territory after territory was fought and taken
Mughal domination shaken, Mughal domination shaken.

Fort Sinhgad was conquered with sheer determination
Mughals lost prestigious bastion, Mughals lost prestigious bastion.
Tanaji Malusare was the brave fallen lion
Loss to a nation, loss to a nation.

The Marathas started to fight and take back their lands
Stunning the brigands , stunning the brigands.
Fighting the Mughals with all available hands
Regained their lands, regained their lands.

On both Dindori and Salher battlefield
Mughals had to yield, Mughals had to yield
Foundation of Maratha nation was being sealed
People are thrilled, people are thrilled.

Prataprao Gujar released Bahlol Khan as a noble gesture
Incurred Shivaji’s displeasure, incurred Shivaji’s displeasure.
His personal honor was his only real treasure
Needed desperate measure, needed desperate measure.

Thousand men against ten thousand was certain suicide
Anything for pride, anything for pride.
Seven leaders plunged into battle headlong no time to decide
All seven braves died, all seven braves died.

The seven Maratha officers Chief Prataprao Gujar,
With Vithal Pilaji Atre, Krishnaji Bhaskar,
Then fell Dipoji Rautrao, Visaji Ballal
Along with Vithoji Shinde and Siddhi Hilal.

Shivaji decided to formally declare the Maratha nation
With his coronation, with his coronation.
For a long bloody struggle it was a logical conclusion,
What determination, what determination.

Fifty thousand witnessed Shivaji’s coronation
Sovereign of a nation, sovereign of a nation.
Many foreign powers had large participation,
Giving commendation, giving commendation.

Jijabai blessed her son, Shivaji’s coronation
Completing her mission, completing her mission.
She left her body with deep satisfaction
Leaving behind a mourning nation, leaving behind a mourning nation.

Shivaji as a person had a sterling character,
Shrewd political actor, shrewd political actor
Capable commander and good administrator
Motivated leader, motivated leader.

Shivaji’s subjects enjoyed freedom of religion
He opposed forced conversion, he opposed forced conversion
Protecting honor of women his instruction
Moral obligation, Moral obligation.

Developed a responsive administration
For the budding nation, for the budding nation
Protected places of worship irrespective of religion
Brought peace to the region, brought peace to the region.

Shivaji truly deserved the admiration
Of a grateful nation, of a grateful nation.
From the beginning has a very clear notion
About a vibrant nation, about a vibrant nation.

The trumpets are silent, the drums are quiet
A soul has left them and taken flight.
As a son, husband, father and sovereign Shivaji gave his best
the battle-scared body is at rest, the battle-scared body is at rest.

The Maratha empire mourns for their protector
Shivaji has left his body to meet his creator.
Even the clear April sky
Could not help, but cry.

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## ManojSinghRathore

Pak-one said:


> Afzal Khan was a powerful man of Afghan descent and was an experienced warrior, he was general of bijapur. He was much taller and strongly-built than Shivaji. He would attack shivaji and fail? no way. Pashtun custom of hugging men on hello cost him his life, shivaji stabbed him with his hidden dagger while hugging. Afzal khan was unarmed.
> The urdu phrase "shivaji ka khanjar" means treachery




Afzal Khan was a dishonourable man, unfit to be called either a warrior or a man. He invited another Hindu King before Shivaji for a meeting, and stabbed him to death. When he invited Shivaji, Shivaji knew what a cowardly woman Afzal Khan was, and rightly stabbed that unhonourable man to death for his previous cowardice.


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## AUSTERLITZ

ExtraOdinary said:


> Afzal Khan was a sorry excuse for a human being, got what he deserved, Chatrapati Maharaj ki Jai
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *
> *The last cries - The Hindu*
> 
> *BIJAPUR: Saat Kabar silently bears the dark saga of 60 wives dying at the hands of a possessive army chief-husband*
> My last halt in Bijapur turns out to be a bit of a grave destination and the setting of a cold-blooded tale. It is well past five in the evening, and I have been on a whirlwind tour of the heritage town where almost every monument is a mahal or a mosque or a mausoleum. But I have not had my fill yet.
> 
> The auto driver is a bit skeptical when I tell him I want to head to Saat Kabar. He tries to dissuade me. “There is no road. You may have to walk. The auto cannot go there,” he says. He warns me it is rather isolated and there will be no one around. But I refuse to give up. We drive down, leaving the dusty town and hit the highway. A detour takes us across a few scattered homes as we watch some boys play cricket on grounds. The auto stops at a dead-end. All I see in front of me are just a bit of dense undergrowth and a clump of bushes. There is no path. I walk behind the auto driver looking out for snakes. On one side is sheer wilderness and on the other, lush fields.
> 
> We keep walking and suddenly I spy the outline of a monument peeping at us through the trees. Brick red, it seems to be on the other side of a high compound wall with no access. I stop and look at it towering in front of me, the unkempt branches of the trees snaking towards it, shrouding it from public view.
> 
> It is eerie, as I wonder if this is the Saat Kabar or the 60 graves of the murdered wives of Afzal Khan, the army chief of Adil Shahi II. The graves narrate the gruesome fate of these women who were killed by their own husband. The tragic story is set in the 17th Century, when Chatrapathi Shivaji wages war against Adil Shah II. Afzal Khan leads the forces, but is distracted by an astrologer who tells him he will not survive the battle. The jealous and possessive commander decides to kill all his 60 wives lest they remarry after the war. So, he beckons them to an isolated spot and pushes them into a well. One of them tries to escape, but is captured and killed as well. And, I’m standing in the middle of nowhere looking for those 60 graves.
> 
> Suddenly, my auto driver calls out to me. He is ahead of me, near a clearing, and I make my way through the shrubs only to see a vast open space. There lie several graves, made of black stone, arranged neatly in rows. Some of these stones are broken, open to the skies. Afzal Khan apparently wanted to be buried near his wives as well, but he never returned from the battlefield.
> 
> The silence is ominous here, almost echoing the last cries of the women who were pushed to their death. I feel a shiver, and hurry back to the safe confines of civilisation.



Didn't know he was such a barbarian.Sick.

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## doremon

most of comments here are from muslims supporting afzal and hindus supporting shivaji,as a christians my point of view is shivaji was great and patriotic leader ,were afzal was just a shithead who commited grave crimes like killing his wives etc,were as shivaji even built a tomb and asked for funeral of afzal to be done according to islamic traditions now thats called a leader.

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## SarthakGanguly

doremon said:


> most of comments here are from muslims supporting afzal and hindus supporting shivaji,as a christians my point of view is shivaji was great and patriotic leader ,were afzal was just a shithead who commited grave crimes like killing his wives etc,were as shivaji even built a tomb and asked for funeral of afzal to be done according to islamic traditions now thats called a leader.


In fact this is the ideal leader that we should look up to. One who fights evil but is not blinded by it.

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## Hindustani78

himalayah said:


> How can a son of the soil, native of the land possibly be treacherous towards a farangi afghan? These people don't belong here anyway and deserved to be shipped back to their deserts of khorasan, where they can live in peace with other disgusting cockroaches of their kind.
> 
> Har Har Mahadev. Vande Mataram



Its Indian companies who are investing in Afghanistan to get natural resources and even working to get direct access and whatever you are talking is like Indians should break relations with all the other nations because of their religion. Ever thought if the same Afghans son of soils, native of that land would talk the same, how would be our reaction.


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## himalayah

Pak-one said:


> Stupid and illogical excuse, being native doesn't stop you from committing treachery....
> Marathas didnt care about honour and all that stuff like rajputs......their way of fighting much powerful mughals required them to adopt tactics like this.




I guess you're right. That means any foreign occupation, however illegitimate, becomes legal through force. Taliban fighting NATO occupation of Afghanistan are also traitors to kabul regime, no?

When we were fighting 1857 war of independence- our Jang-e-azadi- against Britishers, it was muslims from present day Pakistan who played huge role in crushing it as slave soldiers. So yes, in the eyes of the British, and their loyal shoe polishers like syed ahmed khan and hazrat muhammad ali jinnah (peace be upon him), us natives were probably treacherous and angrez was right to rule us.

Sorry, its just a difference in mindset. for you farangi is to be worshipped. for us it is to be thrown out, however long it takes. Although I thought pathans had more ghairat than this.




Pak-one said:


> Pashtuns have certain rules, honour code.......have you heard about "nanawatay"? according to it you are supposed to give protection to even your enemy if he asks for it.....A guest with asylum is protected at all cost even if your entire clan is annihilated.....few centuries ago my tribe was nearly annihilated by ghilzais after refusing to hand over their culprit who was under our protection.....
> 
> But yes ambushes and surprise attacks are part of our warfare even since British came to our lands, before that we used to fight in conventional way.......taliban have adopted guerrilla warfare of new level, terrorism is added to it.




No I did not know that. Rajputs of Delhi and most hindu kingdoms before that had codes of honor, but you already know what that resulted in. Unfortunately it took too many centuries for us to realize the kind of filth we were facing had no sense of ethics or honor.

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## Srinivas

Pak-one said:


> Pashtuns have certain rules, honour code.......have you heard about "nanawatay"? according to it you are supposed to give protection to even your enemy if he asks for it.....A guest with asylum is protected at all cost even if your entire clan is annihilated.....few centuries ago my tribe was nearly annihilated by ghilzais after refusing to hand over their culprit who was under our protection.....
> 
> But yes ambushes and surprise attacks are part of our warfare even since British came to our lands, before that we used to fight in conventional way.......taliban have adopted guerrilla warfare of new level, terrorism is added to it.
> 
> Pashtuns have certain rules, honour code.......have you heard about "nanawatay"? according to it you are supposed to give protection to even your enemy if he asks for it.....A guest with asylum is protected at all cost even if your entire clan is annihilated.....few centuries ago my tribe was nearly annihilated by ghilzais after refusing to hand over their culprit who was under our protection.....
> 
> But yes ambushes and surprise attacks are part of our warfare even since British came to our lands, before that we used to fight in conventional way.......taliban have adopted guerrilla warfare of new level, terrorism is added to it.



Yes Pashtuns have very good code I agree!!

But how many of them followed it strictly while invading India??

Raping women and killing unarmed Brahmins and destroying temples !!

I think most of them deviated from Pashtunvali.

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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

Srinivas said:


> Yes Pashtuns have very good code I agree!!
> 
> But how many of them followed it strictly while invading India??
> 
> Raping women and killing unarmed Brahmins and destroying temples !!
> 
> I think most of them deviated from Pashtunvali.


If they were really into raping hindu women, killing unarmed brahamins and destroying temples.........the hindu population would have turned against them as they did against aurangzaib



himalayah said:


> I guess you're right. That means any foreign occupation, however illegitimate, becomes legal through force. Taliban fighting NATO occupation of Afghanistan are also traitors to kabul regime, no?
> 
> When we were fighting 1857 war of independence- our Jang-e-azadi- against Britishers, it was muslims from present day Pakistan who played huge role in crushing it as slave soldiers. So yes, in the eyes of the British, and their loyal shoe polishers like syed ahmed khan and hazrat muhammad ali jinnah (peace be upon him), us natives were probably treacherous and angrez was right to rule us.
> 
> *Sorry, its just a difference in mindset. for you farangi is to be worshipped. for us it is to be thrown out, however long it takes. Although I thought pathans had more ghairat than this.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No I did not know that. Rajputs of Delhi and most hindu kingdoms before that had codes of honor, but you already know what that resulted in. Unfortunately it took too many centuries for us to realize the kind of filth we were facing had no sense of ethics or honor.


What are you talking about? we pathans fought against british till the end.............even in india, Rohilla pathans were very prominent in 1857 war of Independence. General bakht khan and khan bahadur khan were rohilla pashtuns.

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## Srinivas

Pak-one said:


> If they were really into raping hindu women, killing unarmed brahamins and destroying temples.........the hindu population would have turned against them as they did against aurangzaib



Yes they turned against the invaders ...... You can check out the Islamic expansion in India and the rapes, murders and looting that happened.

There is lot of material on the internet related to this.

This is one of the main reason why Hindus hate Islamic rulers even now.


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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

Srinivas said:


> Yes they turned against the invaders ...... You can check out the Islamic expansion in India and the rapes, murders and looting that happened.
> 
> There is lot of material on the internet related to this.
> 
> This is one of the main reason why Hindus hate Islamic rulers even now.


I have not heard about any hindu insurgency during lodhi and suri times......


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## SarthakGanguly

Pak-one said:


> I have not heard about any hindu insurgency during lodhi and suri times......


There is a reason why the Islamic domination ultimately failed in India. Your history is not very good, I'm afraid.
Rana Sanga was a Rajput chief who not only grew powerful, but also... ah well the suspense. Read about him. 

All throughout out history, there were leaders who fought against invaders.

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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

SarthakGanguly said:


> There is a reason why the Islamic domination ultimately failed in India. Your history is not very good, I'm afraid.
> Rana Sanga was a Rajput chief who not only grew powerful, but also... ah well the suspense. Read about him.
> 
> All throughout out history, there were leaders who fought against invaders.


i know about him. let me tell you an interesting fact. Rana sanga and Mahmood lodhi joined forces against babur after panipat war......


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## Srinivas

Pak-one said:


> I have not heard about any hindu insurgency during lodhi and suri times......



There is always a resistance from Rajputs. Throughput the History these guys particularly the guys from Rajasthan have resisted the Islamic rulers.



SarthakGanguly said:


> There is a reason why the Islamic domination ultimately failed in India. Your history is not very good, I'm afraid.
> Rana Sanga was a Rajput chief who not only grew powerful, but also... *ah well the suspense*. Read about him.
> 
> All throughout out history, there were leaders who fought against invaders.

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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

Srinivas said:


> There is always a resistance from Rajputs. Throughput the History these guys particularly the guys from Rajasthan have resisted the Islamic rulers.


Invalid example........rajputs always maintained full or semi Independence......they were not fighting with muslims because of the atrocities you mentioned, but to maintain their Independence.......even if the most honorable people on earth had invaded rajputs, they would have given them wars.


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## SarthakGanguly

Pak-one said:


> Invalid example........rajputs always maintained full or semi Independence......they were not fighting with muslims because of the atrocities you mentioned, but to maintain their Independence.......even if the most honorable people on earth had invaded rajputs, they would have given them wars.


And their ladies would jump in fire when their husbands went to battle the invaders when all hope was lost.

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## walwal

!eon said:


> Afzal khan and treachery of Shivaji | Page 2
> Angels busted ! praising cowardly act of a coward


Bwahhh... you giving me a link of just another thread on PDF


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## Srinivas

Pak-one said:


> Invalid example........rajputs always maintained full or semi Independence......they were not fighting with muslims because of the atrocities you mentioned, but to maintain their Independence.......even if the most honorable people on earth had invaded rajputs, they would have given them wars.



You mean to say Hindus accepted Foreign Islamic invaders ??

These invaders are seen as looters who looted Temples and raped women in the name of GOD.

When the strength of men in the mountains of Central Asia is adequate these guys used to come to the plains of Delhi to loot, rape and to do destruction.

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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

SarthakGanguly said:


> And their ladies would jump in fire when their husbands went to battle the invaders when all hope was lost.


It was their custom



Srinivas said:


> You mean to say Hindus accepted Foreign Islamic invaders ??
> 
> These invaders are seen as looters who looted Temples and raped women in the name of GOD.
> 
> When the strength of men in the mountains of Central Asia is adequate these guys used to come to the plains of Delhi to loot, rape and to do destruction.


then tell me the reason ,other than rajasthan ,why there was no hindu insurgency and unrest in rest of india during periods of lodhis and suris?


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## Sam Manekshaw

*Battle of Pratapgarh:*

*Composition of Adilshahi forces:*
Afzal Khan was assisted by the chieftains Sayyad Banda, Fazal Khan, Ambarkhan, Yakutkhan, Siddi Hilal, Musekhan, Pilaji Mohite, Prataprao More and many more commanders of note. His forces consisted of 12,000 select Adilshahi cavalry, 10,000 infantry and 1,500 musketeers. He was accompanied by 85 elephants and 1,200 camels. His artillery consisted of 80-90 cannons. Siddi of Janjira was approaching from the Konkan coast.

*Composition of Maratha forces:*
Shivaji was assisted by Kanhoji Jedhe along with other Deshmukhs of Maval region namely Maral, Ramoji Dhamale, Silimkar and Bandal. His cavalry was commanded by Netaji Palkar, and were placed in a forward position near the fort. Moropant Pingle was in command of 3,000 chosen infantry men, who were positioned in a densely forested area. Sambhaji Kavaji Kondhalkar, Yesaji Kank, Jiva Mahala and many other skilled military leaders were in charge of them. Kanhoji Jedhe assisted Shivaji directly along with other commanders. In the meantime, Shahaji was ready in Bangalore with his army of 17,000 for a final Battle in case Shivaji and his forces were routed by Khan. He had warned Badi Begum of Adilshah that, if Afzal Khan and his Adilshahi forces killed Shivaji by deceit, then there wouldn't remain even a brick of the Adilshahi kingdom. These forces were being carefully watched by the Adilshah.

*Aftermath:*
Adilshahi forces lost their artillery, 65 elephants, 4000 horses, 1200 camels, jewels worth 300,000 Rupees, 1,000,000 Rupees, heaps of precious cloths, tents to the Marathas. They also lost their money and grain stored at Wai.

5,000 Adilshahi soldiers were killed and almost as many were wounded. 3,000 soldiers were imprisoned, and the remainder were allowed to go home in defeat. The Marathas lost 1,734 soldiers, while 420 soldiers were wounded.

As it was policy of Shivaji to humanely treat the defeated army, neither the men nor women were sold as slaves or molested. Wounded commanders were offered treatment deserving of their rank and either imprisoned or sent back to Bijapur. Some of the defeated Adilshahi generals like Siddi Hilal changed their loyalties and joined the Marathas to serve under Shivaji Maharaj. Two of Afzal khan’s sons were captured by the Marathas but were let off by the Shivaji Maharaj. Fazal khan (son of Afzal khan) and the Adilshahi soldiers with him who were badly injured were shown a safe passage out of the forest of Jawli by Prataprao More. Shivaji Maharaj also buried Afzal Khan as per Islamic customs and build his tomb near Pratapgarh, as per his philosophy of ‘once the enemy is dead, the enmity is dead too’.

The sword of honour was presented to Kanhoji Jedhe for his invaluable and outstanding performance of service to Shivaji. The relatives of the killed soldiers were offered service in the Maratha army. Families without any male left alive to support the family were awarded pensions. Heroes of the war were rewarded with medals, kada (bracelets) and horses.

Khan's death dealt the Adilshah's rule a severe blow. A quarter of his territory, forts and a fifth of his army were captured or destroyed, while Shivaji doubled his territory, losing a tenth of his army, within fifteen days of the Battle of Pratapgadh.Shivaji maintained his momentum, sending cavalry towards Kolhapur, which succeeded in capturing seventeen forts, including the prestigious fort of Panhala. Cavalry was also sent towards Dabhol and Rajapur under the command of Doroji Patil, which was also successful in capturing forts in the southern Konkan.

This remarkable victory made Shivaji a hero of Maratha folklore and a legendary figure among his people. Having established military dominance and successfully beaten back a major attack by a powerful empire, Shivaji had founded the nucleus of what would become the Maratha Empire

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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

Srinivas said:


> *When the strength of men in the mountains of Central Asia is adequate these guys used to come to the plains of Delhi to loot, rape and to do destruction.*


I am not central asian.....i only speak for afghans.....

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## Srinivas

Pak-one said:


> It was their custom
> then tell me the reason ,other than rajasthan ,why there was no hindu insurgency and unrest in rest of india during periods of lodhis and suris?



It depends on the terrain and the resources they have in that region.

Rajasthan is a desert and difficult to conquer. Remaining parts of North India are plains located around Delhi once Delhi fell these regions used to come under the invader.

South is never under the control of Islamic invaders until Mughals arrived into India.

When historians say Islamic invaders conquered India they mean mostly Gangetic plans, not entire India.


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## walwal

*Aapke ghar mein cockroach aata hai toh aap kya karte hain, Rathore Saahab? Aap usko paalte nahi, maarte hain. Yeh chaaro cockroach mera ghar ganda kar rahe the aur aaj main apna ghar saaf karna chahta hoon.*

Above is an interesting dialogue from the film A Wednesday, which precisely was brought in practice by Chhatrapati Shivaji. He didn't distinguish between enemy based on the religion.

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## SarthakGanguly

Pak-one said:


> It was their custom


Brilliant evaluation. Getting roasted alive is an age old Rajput custom. Whenever the husband goes to fight, their wives burn to death 

Now it is other than Rajasthan.  Good, we are making progress.


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## Sam Manekshaw

SarthakGanguly said:


> And their ladies would jump in fire when their husbands went to battle the invaders when all hope was lost.


It's called "Jauhar"
Jauhar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## Srinivas

Pak-one said:


> I am not central asian.....i only speak for afghans.....



If we leave the Islamic expansion and times of Invasions India have favorable opinion on Afghans. But Islamic faith has done lot of destruction due to Imams and all.

Afghans used to migrate even before the Islam came into existence .... .

Before Islam these guys used to come to India and integrate into Indian society, it is after they came in the name of Islam the clashes started in the name of faith.


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## SarthakGanguly

Sam Manekshaw said:


> It's called "Jauhar"
> Jauhar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


I know that.


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## Sam Manekshaw

walwal said:


> *Aapke ghar mein cockroach aata hai toh aap kya karte hain, Rathore Saahab? Aap usko paalte nahi, maarte hain. Yeh chaaro cockroach mera ghar ganda kar rahe the aur aaj main apna ghar saaf karna chahta hoon.*
> 
> Above is an interesting dialogue from the film A Wednesday, which precisely was brought in practice by Chhatrapati Shivaji. He didn't distinguish between enemy based on the religion.


Though many of Shivaji's enemy states were Muslim, he treated Muslims under his rule with tolerance for their religion. Shivaji's sentiments of inclusivity and tolerance of other religions can be seen in an admonishing letter to Aurangzeb, in which he wrote:

Verily, Islam and Hinduism are terms of contrast. They are used by the true Divine Painter for blending the colours and filling in the outlines. If it is a mosque, the call to prayer is chanted in remembrance of Him. If it is a temple, the bells are rung in yearning for Him alone.

Shivaji had several noteworthy Muslim soldiers, especially in his Navy. Ibrahim Khan and Daulat Khan (both were African descendants) were prominent in the navy; and Siddi Ibrahim was chief of artillery. Muslim soldiers were known for their superior skills in naval and artillery combat skills.

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## himalayah

Pak-one said:


> I have not heard about any hindu insurgency during lodhi and suri times......





Pak-one said:


> If they were really into raping hindu women, killing unarmed brahamins and destroying temples.........the hindu population would have turned against them as they did against aurangzaib




All Islamic invaders faced continuous resistance in one form or another. You haven't read up on history. Not sure about Lodhi times in particular, but the Delhi sultanate faced continuous rebellions from hindu elite and peasants alike. No one likes a foreign invader, you should know better than anyone. 

Sher shah suri was a slightly different case. He was born, raised and died in the heartland of India and was less bigoted towards Indians. Secondly his kingdom was extremely short lived and it died with him - one man show. Mughals, no need to tell you of the resistance they faced from every corner.

Here are some sources you should read to understand the kind of rebellion the sultans faced and how they mitigated it. There is a reason why Islamic invasions started the dark ages for India and dharmic people in subcontinent.

"They faced continued opposition from the Hindu majority in India who rebelled against their conquerors, and they were threatened with periodic Mongol invasions from the north."

"In the rural areas, the population remained almost exclusively Hindu ... And many hated the Muslim government which was imposed upon them."

"He was distrustful of the Hindus whom he feared would rebel against him. So he recruited foreigners and rewarded them with fabulous gifts and high salaries. Persians and Turks and other Muslims flocked to the new empire looking for its rewards."

"When he arrived in Delhi, Ibn Battuta was given a welcoming gift of 2,000 silver dinars and put up in a comfortably furnished house. Muhammad Tughluq was not in Delhi, and so Ibn Battuta waited. Muhammad Tughluq had received reports about this new arrival and hired Ibn Battuta sight-unseen to the service of the state. He would receive an annual salary of 5,000 silver dinars to be paid from two and a half villages located about 16 miles from the city. (State officials and army officers were paid from taxes on crops produced in peasant villages rather than from the royal treasury.) The average Hindu family lived on about 5 dinars a month."

The Travels of Ibn Battuta

Qutb al-D¯ın Aybak (1206–10)

"But his four years of stewardship of the Ghurid Indian dominions were marked by his struggles against Yildiz, the Turkish ruler
of Ghazna; against Qabacha, who controlled Sind and Multan; and against the rebellious Hindu Rajahs, who wanted to throw off the Muslim yoke."

Shams al-Dın Iltutmish (1210–36)

"The deﬁant attitudes of the senior slave generals like Qabacha and Yildiz, the revival of resistance among the Hindu ruling classes, and above all, the threat from the growing power of the Chinggisid Mongols across the North-West Frontier, posed great challenges."

Tughluqids

"After a certain number of successes, however, a reaction set in and in the latter part of his reign, Muhammad had to deal with no fewer than twenty-two rebellions in different parts of the empire."

https://en.unesco.org/silkroad/sites/silkroad/files/knowledge-bank-article/vol_IVa silk road_the delhi sultanate.pdf

" On his way to Delhi in 1334 Battuta's caravan was attacked by 82 Hindu bandits; they fought them off, killing 13. At Delhi Muhammad's army was crushing a peasant tax rebellion. Battuta was given a stipend of 5,000 silver _dinars _from the revenue of two and half villages. While the average Hindu family lived on 5 _dinars_ a month and soldiers were paid about 20, Battuta was given 12,000 a year with a 12,000 advance to be a judge even though he had no experience in law and could hardly speak Persian."

"The poll tax imposed on Hindus for "permission" to live in their homeland by Muslim rulers and the many restrictions on their behavior severely separated these two religious groups in a way that the tolerant spiritual tradition of India never knew before."

"Many Hindus treated Muslims as polluted untouchables, as the hatred became mutual."

"In 1414 he (Ahmad shah) began destroying Hindu temples throughout Gujarat, provoking rebellions by Hindu kings to form a league and appeal to Sultan Hushang of Malwa."

"He was succeeded by his son Muhammad Shah II, who continued the battles against Hindu rebels and died in 1451. Qutb-ud-din Ahmad Shah (r. 1451-58) also fought Hindu rebellions by Maharana Kumbha and encroachment by Malwa sultan Mahmud Khalji."

Delhi Sultans and Rajas 1300-1526 by Sanderson Beck

There are too many accounts of atrocities to mention, multiplied by two because same happened in South India with invaders to the Deccan. You think lodhi's were any different and hindus did not resist their occupation? They were equally foreigners, intolerant and bloodthirsty.

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## Ayush

never knew about this incident.
@Pak-one i generally like your threads.they are knowledgable,and so are the discussions.

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## Guynextdoor2

Roybot said:


> Yeah right.
> 
> I*n 1639, Afzal Khan had murdered Raja Kasturi Ranga after inviting him for a meeting where he could safely make a submission.[1] Therefore, Shivaji was wary of Afzal Khan's real intentions.* When Afzal Khan sent his envoy Krishnaji Bhaskar to Shivaji, Shivaji solemnly appealed to him as a Hindu priest to tell him if Afzal Khan was making any treacherous plans. According to the Maratha chronicles, Krishnaji hinted that Afzal Khan harbored mischief. Shivaji then sent his own envoy Pantaji Gopinath to Afzal, agreeing to a meeting; Pantaji's real mission was to find out the strength of Afzal's forces. Pantaji bribed some officials of Afzal Khan to learn that he was planning an attack on Shivaji.


 
Proves conclusively that Afzal Khan used these tactics to lay a trap for his opponents. Except this time the opponent was a shrewd man who could read the situation well.



Pak-one said:


> He was buried with honour because treacherous shivaji was guilty of killing a noble and brave man


 
Shivaji killed an outsider who was trying to impose an outside government, religion and way of life into this land. Shivaji, though in some aspects not wise, was generally a national hero of this land.

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## !eon

walwal said:


> Bwahhh... you giving me a link of just another thread on PDF


ch ch ch 
its just another post from same thread


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## dawn_news

Roybot said:


> Yeah right.
> 
> I*n 1639, Afzal Khan had murdered Raja Kasturi Ranga after inviting him for a meeting where he could safely make a submission.[1] Therefore, Shivaji was wary of Afzal Khan's real intentions.* When Afzal Khan sent his envoy Krishnaji Bhaskar to Shivaji, Shivaji solemnly appealed to him as a Hindu priest to tell him if Afzal Khan was making any treacherous plans. According to the Maratha chronicles, Krishnaji hinted that Afzal Khan harbored mischief. Shivaji then sent his own envoy Pantaji Gopinath to Afzal, agreeing to a meeting; Pantaji's real mission was to find out the strength of Afzal's forces. Pantaji bribed some officials of Afzal Khan to learn that he was planning an attack on Shivaji.



hmm So Afzal Khan himself was beghairat and without any honour. If your story is true then i can't blame Shivaji here. History should be looked from neutral point of view.



Pak-one said:


> Shut the fck up @shan. I didnt open this thread to bash hindus. It is about particular persons in a particular incident. Muslims also committed treachery at various occasions



You forget to wrote that Afzal Khan not long before killed someone in similar fashion. I already told you verify your sources before i insult hindus, because your history knowledge is one sided and weak. As its turn out you are blaming Shivaji for something Afzal Khan did it before him.

I would put Shivaji act in revenge category.


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## dawn_news

Guynextdoor2 said:


> Shivaji killed an outsider who was trying to impose an outside government, religion and way of life into this land. Shivaji, though in some aspects not wise, was generally a national hero of this land.



Shivaji was not better then Afzal Khan, his land was Maharashtra. But when he gained power he looted and pillaged other states around him like any other invader. Him being hindu doesn't change that fact.

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## Kyusuibu Honbu

All warfare is based on deception


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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

Nuri Natt said:


> hmm So Afzal Khan himself was beghairat and without any honour. If your story is true then i can't blame Shivaji here. History should be looked from neutral point of view.
> 
> 
> 
> You forget to wrote that Afzal Khan not long before killed someone in similar fashion. I already told you verify your sources before i insult hindus, because your history knowledge is one sided and weak. As its turn out you are blaming Shivaji for something Afzal Khan did it before him.
> 
> I would put Shivaji act in revenge category.


But muslim punjabis didnt produce even a single capable military general like afzal khan even though they have only 30% ASI genes according to harrapa sharrapa project. Why aryan ancestors of nuri nutt were spending their time on eating aloo parathas and dhai balay instead of sharpening their swords?

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## SarthakGanguly

Pak-one said:


> But muslim punjabis didnt produce even a single capable military general like afzal khan even though they have only 30% ASI genes according to harrapa sharrapa project. Why aryan ancestors of nuri nutt were spending their time on eating aloo parathas and dhai balay instead of sharpening their swords?


Leh, yahaan bhi ASI ANI


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## dawn_news

Pak-one said:


> But muslim punjabis didnt produce even a single capable military general like afzal khan even though they have only 30% ASI genes according to harrapa sharrapa project. Why aryan ancestors of nuri nutt were spending their time on eating aloo parathas and dhai balay instead of sharpening their swords?



Punjabis lost basically after hindu shahis demise. But nothing is forever, according to Afghans like you punjabis have basically ruined you for ever  You guys basically blame your misery on punjabis. And i never claimed aryans were indigenous, they were invaders.

On the other hand you proudly claimed Afghans pakhtuns have majority R1A1a just like Iranians. Which is untrue in case of iran and Afghanistan  Its only Afghans who claim to be Aryan while being mulatos.

Check this out, Afghans are hybrid Mulato/mongloid. I would say Pakistan pakhtuns at least don't have mongloid genes.

Afghan Dataset | Harappa Ancestry Project

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## Shardul.....the lion

Proud to be ethnic maratha who kicked out Mughals ....

Due to maratha warriors, we had Hindu rule in India after 300-400 yrs of Muslim rule (only later Mughals had Pan India presence)

Only if Marathas were united they could have kicked out British too..

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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

SarthakGanguly said:


> Leh, yahaan bhi ASI ANI


samja kar, I am making fun of his ASI ANI non-sense

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## dawn_news

Pak-one said:


> samja kar, I am making fun of his ASI ANI non-sense



Its not nonsense but to much to handle for some like you i guess. ANI-ASI are genetic terms. Good thing now you can also claim Mongol achievements

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## Cherokee

@Nuri Natt Why are you mad bro . Have some cool aid and relax .

@Pak-one You are growing as a poster . Taking so much shyt from both Indians and Pakistanis and still trying to have a conversation . 

WHat people don't understand is what shivaji is to them is what Afghan mujahideens were to afghans against soviets .

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## Tameem

Cherokee said:


> @Pak-one You are growing as a poster . Taking so much shyt from both Indians and Pakistanis and still trying to have a conversation .



Basically, being Afghan he hates Pakistanis and tries to bond with Indians as close as possible for whatever it takes.
In this thread too he tries to portrays Pushtun generals being local of mainland Hindustan just like Marathas and evil Mughals are invaders and foreigners waring both Pushtuns & Marathas.

In his short vocabulary;

Mughals= Pakistan (outsiders)
Afghans&
Marathas= Afghanistan, India (Brothers)

I request Indians to pls have a special treatment with @Pak-one bcz he is one of you

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## Guynextdoor2

Nuri Natt said:


> Shivaji was not better then Afzal Khan, his land was Maharashtra. But when he gained power he looted and pillaged other states around him like any other invader. Him being hindu doesn't change that fact.


 
I never said this was a Hindu Vs Muslim thing. I said he defended the traditions of his land- whatever they were. That was a legitimate fight.

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## dawn_news

Tameem said:


> Basically, being Afghan he hates Pakistanis and tries to bond with Indians as close as possible for whatever it takes.
> In this thread too he tries to portrays Pushtun generals being local of mainland Hindustan just like Marathas and evil Mughals are invaders and foreigners waring both Pushtuns & Marathas.
> 
> In his short vocabulary;
> 
> Mughals= Pakistan (outsiders)
> Afghans&
> Marathas= Afghanistan, India (Brothers)
> 
> I request Indians to pls have a special treatment with @Pak-one bcz he is one of you



Just read his OP again, the reason given for Afzal Khan not attacking first is that he was to big for Shivaji  This guy is hilarious historian. Remind me off hindutva Indic, both change history to suite their agenda.

And yes he hate Mughals with passion.



Guynextdoor2 said:


> I never said this was a Hindu Vs Muslim thing. I said he defended the traditions of his land- whatever they were. That was a legitimate fight.



Yes i agree with you on that.

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## AUSTERLITZ

Not really ,pak-one is a passionate pashtun nationalist.I don't think he has any bias towards indians or pakistanis,but does seem to possess a hostility towards punjabis.Anyways impressive standing alone against 2 sided assault in this thread.Also has significant enthusiasm about history,though its limited to the exploits of his ethnicity.


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## Slayer786

punit said:


> Jaise ko taisa ! Brilliant work by Shivaji maharaj !



So this cowardice act is normal for indians. I guess it is the only way they know how to behave.


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## Tameem

AUSTERLITZ said:


> Not really ,pak-one is a passionate pashtun nationalist.I don't think he has any bias towards indians or pakistanis,but does seem to possess a hostility towards punjabis.Anyways impressive standing alone against 2 sided assault in this thread.Also has significant enthusiasm about history,though its limited to the exploits of his ethnicity.



I just astonished to note his totally misplaced remorse that Why Pushtuns in Hindustan didn't went Gurilla warfare with wars with Mughals just like Shive adopted successfully with same enemy

This knockhead didn't know that Shive/Marathas have no other options but to fight for their land unlike Afghans who can easily evaporates to Kabul whenever shit hit the fan by Mughals.


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## AUSTERLITZ

Slayer786 said:


> So this cowardice act is normal for indians. I guess it is the only way they know how to behave.



Right when afzal does it ,all is fair in love and war.When shivaji does it[possibly in self defense]its cowardice?Lol.A coward doesn't lead a commando style attack in person right into the enemy's den like shivaji did to shaista khan.A coward doesn't walk out of the imperial durbar right before aurangzeb's face,that no one had ever dared to-knowing he could be executed for it.Shivaji wasn't honor bound gullible rajput,he gave as good as he got,and more.U'll never see him coming.

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## NW21Tamil

Slayer786 said:


> So this cowardice act is normal for indians. I guess it is the only way they know how to behave.


Evil Yindooos.


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## Srinivas

Slayer786 said:


> So this cowardice act is normal for indians. I guess it is the only way they know how to behave.



Shivaji Mahraj is not a coward, he is the pride of Marathas and is a fearsome warrior. He struck terror in the hearts of Mughals!!


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## dawn_news

So we will have to scratch that OP theory of Shivaji was midget so couldnt have defended himself. There are couple of things.

Shivaji wore armor to protect himself going by Afzal Khan reputation of killing guests or wore it because he already planned to attack and kill Afzal Khan with khanjar?


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## Cherokee

Tameem said:


> Basically, being Afghan he hates Pakistanis and tries to bond with Indians as close as possible for whatever it takes.
> In this thread too he tries to portrays Pushtun generals being local of mainland Hindustan just like Marathas and evil Mughals are invaders and foreigners waring both Pushtuns & Marathas.
> 
> In his short vocabulary;
> 
> Mughals= Pakistan (outsiders)
> Afghans&
> Marathas= Afghanistan, India (Brothers)
> 
> I request Indians to pls have a special treatment with @Pak-one bcz he is one of you




He is not one of us . Plus both Mughals and Marathas were Indian . You neither have claim over mughals nor marathas . I set a senior poster straight few days back when he claimed to be direct descendant of aurangzeb .

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## AUSTERLITZ

Nuri Natt said:


> So we will have to scratch that OP theory of Shivaji was midget so couldnt have defended himself. There are couple of things.
> 
> Shivaji wore armor to protect himself going by Afzal Khan reputation of killing guests or wore it because he already planned to attack and kill Afzal Khan with khanjar?



Both,he knew afzal would try to kill him but also that if he killed afzal it would demoralize enemy army who could then be pounced upon by waiting maratha soldiers.Both self defense and potential gain.


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## Tameem

Srinivas said:


> Shivaji Mahraj is not a coward, he is the pride of Marathas and is a fearsome warrior. He struck terror in the hearts of Afghans!!



Stay on topic


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## Srinivas

Tameem said:


> Stay on topic



LOL you changed the post ..... to troll ....


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## INDIC

Tameem said:


> I just astonished to note his totally misplaced remorse that Why Pushtuns in Hindustan didn't went Gurilla warfare with wars with Mughals just like Shive adopted successfully with same enemy
> 
> This knockhead didn't know that Shive/Marathas have no other options but to fight for their land unlike Afghans who can easily evaporates to Kabul whenever shit hit the fan by Mughals.



In the end everyone gave good thrashing to Mughals like Marathas, Jats, Pashtuns, Ahoms, Rajputs etc, all because of the stupidity of Aurangzeb.


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## Tameem

INDIC said:


> In the end everyone gave good thrashing to Mughals like Marathas, Jats, Pashtuns, Ahoms, Rajputs etc, all because of the stupidity of Aurangzeb.



Only after the death of Aurangzeb He actually ruled the widest and wealthiest Mughal Empire of its all Kings.


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## INDIC

Tameem said:


> Only after the death of Aurangzeb He actually ruled the widest and wealthiest Mughal Empire of its all Kings.



You are wrong, his stupidity costed Mughals dearly and drained the wealth of the Mughal empire out of his madness and incited his subjects to revolt because of his religious intolerance. He knew it, when he died his own nobles and _subedars_ betrayed him leading to the demise of Mughal Empire.


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## Tameem

INDIC said:


> You are wrong, his stupidity costed Mughals dearly and drained the wealth of the Mughal empire out of his madness and incited his subjects to revolt because of his religious intolerance. He knew it, *when he died his own nobles and subedars betrayed him* leading to the demise of Mughal Empire.



THis is the norm in medieval Hindustan for every King or Raja why segregate Aurangzeb alone only bcz he kicks everyone's arss until his death


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## Mike_Brando

SarthakGanguly said:


> This is a question of relativism.
> 
> For you Shivaji is a treacherous murderer. For us he is among the best rulers of our country.
> Only difference is you have remained firm in your convictions while some of us remained confused.


LOL mate,not a single real Indian citizen has any doubt about the greatness of Chattrapati Shivaji Maharaja!!He was one of the greatest son of our Motherland and a true champion of the Dharmic Faith.Sometimes i feel that if we had a person of Shivaji Maharaja's stature to lead this country,we would have become a true super power by now....

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## Jaggu

AUSTERLITZ said:


> Both,he knew afzal would try to kill him but also that if he killed afzal it would demoralize enemy army who could then be pounced upon by waiting maratha soldiers.Both self defense and potential gain.


That could be one contributing factor to attacking and killing a leader like Afzal Khan or atleast. The way wars were fought during those times, even if an army was bigger stronger and winning the war, but if the leader was killed, that bigger, stronger army would feel so demoralized that they would flea in panic. This has happened in many battles and wars in history where the winning side loses because it's leader unexpectedly dies. Such was the case during the 2nd battle of Panipat where Hemu was winning against the Mughals. But because Hemu's eye was struck with an arrow he fell unconscious and his army panicked and ran away in confusion.

Shivaji was very daring. He was a small man but he didn't let that hold him back. He brought the war directly to the leaders with his surgical strikes with his hand picked men(who were like commandos of the modern era). He was a very practical person and knew how to win battles.


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## hussain0216

How cowardly


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## asad71

1.As the Rajputs are a valiant, honorable and chivalrous race so are the Marathas treacherous. The Marathas have always been treacherous, faithless and fickle,striking from the rear being their favorite tactics.

2. Shivaji was nothing more than a brigand. The rising Hindu fundamentalists needed a hero. And they created that in this dacoit.


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## ExtraOdinary

asad71 said:


> 1.As the Rajputs area valiant, honorable and chivalrous race so are the Marathas treacherous. The Maraths have always been treacherous, faithless and fickle,striking from the rear being their favorite tactics.
> 
> 2. Shivaji was nothing more than a brigand. The rising Hindu fundamentalists needed a hero. And they created that in this dacoit.



Understandable you are mad, he kicked your fundamentalist *** .

And yes we Indians have our own local heroes from Shivaji to Rana Pratap, we don't worship a.k.a kiss *** of foreign invaders like you do

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## Gandhi G in da house

asad71 said:


> 1.As the Rajputs are a valiant, honorable and chivalrous race so are the Marathas treacherous. The Marathas have always been treacherous, faithless and fickle,striking from the rear being their favorite tactics.
> 
> 2. Shivaji was nothing more than a brigand. The rising Hindu fundamentalists needed a hero. And they created that in this dacoit.



And what did Muhammad Ghori of Afghanistan do to the chivalrous and honourable Rajput Prithviraj who set Ghori , a war prisoner free after defeating him in the First Battle of Tarain ?

He came back a year later with a larger army , defeated the Rajputs , took him to Afghanistan and killed him there. This was how he returned the Rajput chivalry and honour.

What happened to Afzal Khan was well deserved. I guess by the 17th century Hindus had understood that these invaders do not understand the language of honour and chivalry.

@Pak-one

As a well wisher bro , let me just make a point that Pashtuns/Afghans need to start looking into the future. A lot of things happened in the past for all peoples and civilisations but we have to move on. This is especially true for educated Afghans like you.

Afghan economy in growing rapidly and your homeland just had a massively successful and peaceful elections despite all the odds. These are the things that Afghans should be proud of rather than some invasions or related events that happened centuries ago.

Best of luck to you and all Afghans for a better and more prosperous future.

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## AUSTERLITZ

nick_indian said:


> And what did Muhammad Ghori of Afghanistan do to the chivalrous and honourable Rajput Prithviraj who set Ghori , a war prisoner free after defeating him in the First Battle of Tarain ?
> 
> He came back a year later with a larger army , defeated the Rajputs , took him to Afghanistan and killed him there. This was how he returned the Rajput chivalry and honour.
> 
> What happened to Afzal Khan was well deserved. I guess by the 17th century Hindus had understood that these invaders do not understand the language of honour and chivalry.



Prithviraj never captured ghori,ghori was carried off the battlefield by a loyal guard after his army was defeated.Prithviraj lazily allowed him to regroup.This is a common misinformation spread by revisionist overnationalism based on the fictional exxaggerations of chand bardai's romantic poetry,who was court poet of prithviraj.
And ghorids were east iranian tajik descent.
What happened to afzal was indeed well deserved.

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## Jaggu

AUSTERLITZ said:


> Prithviraj never captured ghori,ghori was carried off the battlefield by a loyal guard after his army was defeated.Prithviraj lazily allowed him to regroup.This is a common misinformation spread by revisionist overnationalism based on the fictional exxaggerations of chand bardai's romantic poetry,who was court poet of prithviraj.
> And ghorids were east iranian tajik descent.
> What happened to afzal was indeed well deserved.


Chand Bardai was an eye witness to all that happened. And It's not hard to believe that story had indeed occurred. Ancient Kshatriya honour codes were such that if an enemy leader was caught as a POW, he was never killed or mistreated. Usually he was set free. That is why when Raja Porus was in front of Alexander, the Raja expected as per the Kshatriya traditions he grew up in that he would be set free and Alexander too was deeply impressed by Porus that he also did not kill him even though Alexander did not follow such chivalrous traditions himself as seen from his conduct with the Persians.

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## Gandhi G in da house

AUSTERLITZ said:


> Prithviraj never captured ghori,ghori was carried off the battlefield by a loyal guard after his army was defeated.Prithviraj lazily allowed him to regroup.This is a common misinformation spread by revisionist overnationalism based on the fictional exxaggerations of chand bardai's romantic poetry,who was court poet of prithviraj.
> And ghorids were east iranian tajik descent.
> What happened to afzal was indeed well deserved.



Thanks I have read this version of history as well. Wasn't sure which one was true.

As for Ghorids being Tajiks there is no consensus among historians about their ethnic background. There as many other sources that put them under Pashtuns or Turks. Anyway, they were from the territory of modern day Afghanistan. That we know for sure.


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## INDIC

nick_indian said:


> Thanks I have read this version of history as well. Wasn't sure which one was true.
> 
> As for Ghorids being Tajiks there is no consensus among historians about their ethnic background. There as many other sources that put them under Pashtuns or Turks. Anyway, they were from the territory of modern day Afghanistan. That we know for sure.



Ghori was a Turk and that's why Turks were his descendants. The names like Aebak, Iltutmish are Turkish names.


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## Gandhi G in da house

INDIC said:


> Ghori was a Turk and that's why Turks were his descendants. The names like Aebak, Iltutmish are Turkish names.



Qutb ud din Aibak was not his descendant, he was his Turkic slave. We don't know the Ghorid's ethnicity. Not sure at least. Could be Turk/Pashtun/Tajik.

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## INDIC

nick_indian said:


> Qutb ud din Aibak was not his descendant, he was his Turkic slave. We don't know the Ghorid's ethnicity. Not sure at least. Could be Turk/Pashtun/Tajik.



I meant successors, Since Qutub ud din Aibek was a Turk, it higly likely he was too a Turk.


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## Gandhi G in da house

INDIC said:


> I meant successors, Since Qutub ud din Aibek was a Turk, it higly likely he was too a Turk.



No man. Qutb ud din was Ghori's slave. That is why his dynasty was called the Slave dynasty. It's not necessary that a Turk's master had to be a Turk only. Could be anybody else like a Tajik or Pashtun. There is no consensus among historians.


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## Charon 2

I


nick_indian said:


> Qutb ud din Aibak was not his descendant, he was his Turkic slave. We don't know the Ghorid's ethnicity. Not sure at least. Could be Turk/Pashtun/Tajik.



I think that Ghori could be a mixed Turko-Iranian like Mahmud Ghaznavi but I think that the was either a Tajik or a Pashtun because he has a poetry where he says that the has no sons but thousand of Turkic slaves whom he consider as his sons. Aibak and Iltutmish were definitely Turkic


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## Gandhi G in da house

Charon 2 said:


> I
> 
> 
> I think that Ghori could be a mixed Turko-Iranian like Mahmud Ghaznavi but I think that the was either a Tajik or a Pashtun because he has a poetry where he says that the has no sons but thousand of Turkic slaves whom he consider as his sons. Aibak and Iltutmish were definitely Turkic



People can only guess since there is no historical consensus. 

And Ghaznavids are referred to as Turks only. Never heard of Turko-Iranian.


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## MilSpec

asad71 said:


> 1.As the Rajputs are a valiant, honorable and chivalrous race so are the Marathas treacherous. The Marathas have always been treacherous, faithless and fickle,striking from the rear being their favorite tactics.
> 
> 2. Shivaji was nothing more than a brigand. The rising Hindu fundamentalists needed a hero. And they created that in this dacoit.



Please educate yourself, and by doing so you would be doing everyone on the forum a favor....

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## Charon 2

nick_indian said:


> People can only guess since there is no historical consensus.
> 
> And Ghaznavids are referred to as Turks only. Never heard of Turko-Iranian.



Mahmud Ghaznavis mother was Persian and they used Persian as court language. He and his sons were totally hated by the Turkmen nomads. So much that they killed his son during a battle


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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

nick_indian said:


> And what did Muhammad Ghori of Afghanistan do to the chivalrous and honourable Rajput Prithviraj who set Ghori , a war prisoner free after defeating him in the First Battle of Tarain ?
> 
> He came back a year later with a larger army , defeated the Rajputs , took him to Afghanistan and killed him there. This was how he returned the Rajput chivalry and honour.
> 
> What happened to Afzal Khan was well deserved. I guess by the 17th century Hindus had understood that these invaders do not understand the language of honour and chivalry.
> 
> @Pak-one
> 
> As a well wisher bro , let me just make a point that Pashtuns/Afghans need to start looking into the future. A lot of things happened in the past for all peoples and civilisations but we have to move on. This is especially true for educated Afghans like you.
> 
> Afghan economy in growing rapidly and your homeland just had a massively successful and peaceful elections despite all the odds. These are the things that Afghans should be proud of rather than some invasions or related events that happened centuries ago.
> 
> Best of luck to you and all Afghans for a better and more prosperous future.


Point noted bro

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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

INDIC said:


> Ghori was a Turk and that's why Turks were his descendants. The names like Aebak, Iltutmish are Turkish names.


Aibak was his slave from central asia. The most famous tribe which was branch of ghoris, was suri. The first pashto poet was amir kror suri. There are mentions of both ghoris and suris during hindu shahi dynasty.
Many pashtun tribes trace their origin to ghauris. They were perhaps not pashtuns in the begining but got assimilated.
Also story is passed down that persian prince shah hussain ghuri fell in love with bibi mato, a pashtun. So ghurids were either tajiks or pashtuns.

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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

Tameem said:


> Basically, being Afghan he hates Pakistanis and tries to bond with Indians as close as possible for whatever it takes.
> In this thread too he tries to portrays Pushtun generals being local of mainland Hindustan just like Marathas and evil Mughals are invaders and foreigners waring both Pushtuns & Marathas.
> 
> In his short vocabulary;
> 
> Mughals= Pakistan (outsiders)
> Afghans&
> Marathas= Afghanistan, India (Brothers)
> 
> I request Indians to pls have a special treatment with @Pak-one bcz he is one of you


I do not consider mughal empire equalent of Pakistan, from where you are getting these ideas?. Mughals were central asias, turko-mongols, so uzbeks have better claims on them. Their capital was Agra so mughal empire is part of history of india, to small extent pakistan. Its funny that you people consider yourselves inheritors of mughals. 
I didnt open this thread to bash hindus. I wanted this topic to be discussed, doesnt matter who takes side of who as long as posts are relevant to topic.
Now you have assumed that by going harsh on @nuri nutt i am licking the *** of indians. The thing is he derails every thread with his non-sense, ANI genes, fair skin dalits and other bakwas. He has ruined the history section. Thats i told him to shut his mouth when he said that he is going to bash hindus.

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## dawn_news

Pak-one said:


> I do not consider mughal empire equalent of Pakistan, from where you are getting these ideas?. Mughals were central asias, turko-mongols, so uzbeks have better claims on them. Their capital was Agra so mughal empire is part of history of india, to small extent pakistan. Its funny that you people consider yourselves inheritors of mughals.
> I didnt open this thread to bash hindus. I wanted this topic to be discussed, doesnt matter who takes side of who as long as posts are relevant to topic.
> Now you have assumed that by going harsh on @nuri nutt i am licking the *** of indians. The thing is he derails every thread with his non-sense, ANI genes, fair skin dalits and other bakwas. He has ruined the history section. Thats i told him to shut his mouth when he said that he is going to bash hindus.



Don't drag me in, you started ASI bs in this thread after your lies were caught. Just to divert the discussion. Anyway its clear as day you being Afghani hate Pakistanis or lets say punjabis. And consider Indians as allies. Anyway about bashing hindus, i said verify your sources before we start to bash hindus. As it turned out you only posted one side of story and incomplete.

And read your op again, you basically said how tall Afzal was so no way midget Shivaji could have defended him which is rediculous. You and other Afghanis bash punjabis 24/7, here you are received quite well compared to how they treat us in their forums. At least no one insults you and your family here.


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## Missile

Nobody can change the nature. Typical type

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## INDIC

Pak-one said:


> Aibak was his slave from central asia. The most famous tribe which was branch of ghoris, was suri. The first pashto poet was amir kror suri. There are mentions of both ghoris and suris during hindu shahi dynasty.
> Many pashtun tribes trace their origin to ghauris. They were perhaps not pashtuns in the begining but got assimilated.
> Also story is passed down that persian prince shah hussain ghuri fell in love with bibi mato, a pashtun. So ghurids were either tajiks or pashtuns.



My point was Turks would have allowed only Turks to take power, during those days Turks, Pashtuns and Mughals fought for their own dominance over each others since Slave Dynasty of Qutubuddin Aibak succeeded Ghori not in a power struggle. Aibak and Iltutmish are pure Turkish names.


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## Jzaib

walwal said:


> Long live Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj ! I hope you have done enough homework by reading history.
> 
> *Afzalkhan was put to rest in a tomb built upon orders of Great Maratha King Shivaji Maharaj. While his courtmen questioned on the decision, the Great King answered, with his (Afzal') death enemity has ended; he needs to be buried with full dignity and respect after performing religious rituals under Islam.*


may b it was the guilt ....


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## SarthakGanguly

Jzaib said:


> may b it was the guilt ....


For you it was the guilt. For us - chivalry.


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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

SarthakGanguly said:


> For you it was the guilt. For us - chivalry.


Marathas didnt give respect to the enemies they despised. You must have heard najib khan rohilla, marthas destroyed his tomb and dispersed his bones in open, it is mentioned in indian sites.
Afzal khan might not be a saint but he was recognized as good military general. Marathas had to get rid of him some how. After his murder, marathas truely emerged as power.
Every thing is fair in love and war. Red wedding !

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## AUSTERLITZ

Pak-one said:


> Marathas didnt give respect to the enemies they despised. You must have heard najib khan rohilla, marthas destroyed his tomb and dispersed his bones in open, it is mentioned in indian sites.
> Afzal khan might not be a saint but he was recognized as good military general. Marathas had to get rid of him some how. After his murder, marathas truely emerged as power.
> Every thing is fair in love and war. Red wedding !



There was perhaps a reason for this,in 1759 marathas attacked delhi.Najib was defending commander .His army was defeated and he was captured.However he was given safe passage and not harmed.When abdali invaded however he quickly joined him with thousands of rohillas and guns and even convinced the nawab of oudh to join him.These forces were decisive in the maratha defeat.So marathas had bad blood with najib,though desecrating a dead man's grave is wrong.Shivaji atleast never did this,he gave afzal a proper islamic burial acc to his view 'the dead have no enemies'.Also shivaji never dishonoured women,even those muslim women captured in raids.However same can't be said of later maratha sardars always who were a greedy,self-serving and rapacious lot by and large.

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## asad71

AUSTERLITZ said:


> Prithviraj never captured ghori,ghori was carried off the battlefield by a loyal guard after his army was defeated.Prithviraj lazily allowed him to regroup.This is a common misinformation spread by revisionist overnationalism based on the fictional exxaggerations of chand bardai's romantic poetry,who was court poet of prithviraj.
> And ghorids were east iranian tajik descent.
> What happened to afzal was indeed well deserved.


Thank you for the first part. But about the treachery and deceit of Shivaji,how can you condone such cowardice?


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## AUSTERLITZ

asad71 said:


> Thank you for the first part. But about the treachery and deceit of Shivaji,how can you condone such cowardice?



So afzal khan commits treachery and ur ok with it,and shivaji is in the wrong.One adapts to the world he lives in to survive.And the world shivaji lived in was full of him being faced by many much stronger existential threats,his actions must also be judged on that context.If he fought head on he would face certain annihilation,so why would a man do that?He didn't always have the luxury of honour fighting as he was for bare survival at that point.Some prefer to be honourable losers,others choose victory at any cost -each have their own philosophical viewpoint.
As for the looting part,the truth is this-maharashtra is not an agriculture rich area like the gangetic basin.Land revenue formed the basis of revenue for a state in those times.On top of it ,this already barren area was being devastated by constant movement of armies.Shivaji could never garner enough revenue from this wreck to maintain his standing army and navy.Thus mass raiding was a way to simultaneously replenish the treasury,assure loyalty of sardars who were often fickle and greedy and keep mughal forces dispersed and diluted,forced to guard many avenues against raids tying down forces.

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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

AUSTERLITZ said:


> There was perhaps a reason for this,in 1759 marathas attacked delhi.Najib was defending commander .His army was defeated and he was captured.However he was given safe passage and not harmed.When abdali invaded however he quickly joined him with thousands of rohillas and guns and even convinced the nawab of oudh to join him.These forces were decisive in the maratha defeat.So marathas had bad blood with najib,though desecrating a dead man's grave is wrong.Shivaji atleast never did this,he gave afzal a proper islamic burial acc to his view 'the dead have no enemies'.Also shivaji never dishonoured women,even those muslim women captured in raids.However same can't be said of later maratha sardars always who were a greedy,self-serving and rapacious lot by and large.





AUSTERLITZ said:


> There was perhaps a reason for this,in 1759 marathas attacked delhi.Najib was defending commander .His army was defeated and he was captured.However he was given safe passage and not harmed.When abdali invaded however he quickly joined him with thousands of rohillas and guns and even convinced the nawab of oudh to join him.These forces were decisive in the maratha defeat.So marathas had bad blood with najib,though desecrating a dead man's grave is wrong.Shivaji atleast never did this,he gave afzal a proper islamic burial acc to his view 'the dead have no enemies'.Also shivaji never dishonoured women,even those muslim women captured in raids.However same can't be said of later maratha sardars always who were a greedy,self-serving and rapacious lot by and large.


Shivaji was smart and treacherous. Many people have not studied biography of sher shah suri, he was also smart and treacherous unlike lodhis. He outsmarted mughals due to that.

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## SarthakGanguly

AUSTERLITZ said:


> So afzal khan commits treachery and ur ok with it,and shivaji is in the wrong.One adapts to the world he lives in to survive.And the world shivaji lived in was full of him being faced by many much stronger existential threats,his actions must also be judged on that context.If he fought head on he would face certain annihilation,so why would a man do that?He didn't always have the luxury of honour fighting as he was for bare survival at that point.Some prefer to be honourable losers,others choose victory at any cost -each have their own philosophical viewpoint.
> As for the looting part,the truth is this-maharashtra is not an agriculture rich area like the gangetic basin.Land revenue formed the basis of revenue for a state in those times.On top of it ,this already barren area was being devastated by constant movement of armies.Shivaji could never garner enough revenue from this wreck to maintain his standing army and navy.Thus mass raiding was a way to simultaneously replenish the treasury,assure loyalty of sardars who were often fickle and greedy and keep mughal forces dispersed and diluted,forced to guard many avenues against raids tying down forces.


Wrong approach. 

Firstly because the Truth is not absolute.

Even if Afzal Khan would have been a saintly general, Shivaji's act is correct with respect to Indians. We are talking about War. Abdul Shahi rule would have been disastrous (as it was in Bijapur). 

Wars are not dependent on morality and love, on the contrary it is based on the exact opposite of it. When Shivaji was hiding Aurangzeb sent his forces commanded by this same general to destroy all the temples in and around the area, to force Shivaji to come out. He chose to continue to hide till he gained strength. 

Had Shivaji not done what had to be done, probably some other asad from Maharashtra would be claiming Shivaji to be a coward and Afzal Khan to be a hero, Varanasi would be called Muhammadabad and Vrindavan would be known as Muminabad among many other (these names were changed actually) etc. 

@Indischer

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## bronxbull

Roybot said:


> Fair enough, to each his own. As far as we are concerned Afzal Khan was a treachorous mercenary, and got what his deserved, his head chopped off his body.
> 
> Atleast we gave him a proper burial unlike what was meted out to Prithviraj Chauhan, that too mind you after he had pardoned Ghori who lost in the first battle of tarain. Now that right there is the epitome of skulduggery.



Thats karma,Ghauri's people are nowhere(i dont mean pathans in general here) but Rajputs are still ruling Rajputana.

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## SarthakGanguly

Pak-one said:


> Shivaji was smart and treacherous. Many people have not studied biography of sher shah suri, he was also smart and treacherous unlike lodhis. He outsmarted mughals due to that.


That is one way of saying it. 

I am surprised that Shivaji showed so much mercy to the Muslim soldiers and population - after decades of oppression and torture. For you he was an evil genius. 

For Me - a Hero.

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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

SarthakGanguly said:


> That is one way of saying it.
> 
> I am surprised that Shivaji showed so much mercy to the Muslim soldiers and population - after decades of oppression and torture. For you he was an evil genius.
> 
> For Me - a Hero.


I didnt use word evil for him. He tactics and stretagies were in accordance with his military resources. He was a grey character, you can also take his action in positive light....he saved lives of thousands of his soldiers by getting rid of a general in his tent.

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## bronxbull

Pak-one said:


> If they were really into raping hindu women, killing unarmed brahamins and destroying temples.........the hindu population would have turned against them as they did against aurangzaib
> 
> 
> What are you talking about? we pathans fought against british till the end.............even in india, Rohilla pathans were very prominent in 1857 war of Independence. General bakht khan and khan bahadur khan were rohilla pashtuns.



They did do all that brother,but they alone were not the culprits.


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## SarthakGanguly

Pak-one said:


> I didnt use word evil for him. He tactics and stretagies were in accordance with his military resources. He was a grey character, you can also take his action in positive light....he saved lives of thousands of his soldiers by getting rid of a general in his tent.


True. That is correct. In fact everything in life is grey - nothing is black and white

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## bronxbull

Pak-one said:


> I have not heard about any hindu insurgency during lodhi and suri times......



to be fair to you,lodhi n sher shah suri do get praised.


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## walwal

Jzaib said:


> may b it was the guilt ....



Guilt ??? Guilt for what ?


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## asad71

bronxbull said:


> Thats karma,Ghauri's people are nowhere(i dont mean pathans in general here) but Rajputs are still ruling Rajputana.


FYI,Bhutto, Zardari and many Pakistani leaders are / were Rajputs.


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## dawn_news

asad71 said:


> FYI,Bhutto, Zardari and many Pakistani leaders are / were Rajputs.



Bhutto is punjabi arain. Zardari is Sindhi of Baloch tribe. Zia was punjabi arain also.

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## dawn_news

bronxbull said:


> Thats karma,Ghauri's people are nowhere(i dont mean pathans in general here) but Rajputs are still ruling Rajputana.



Stop making fun of pathans or i will get back to you and you will start to cry again. Don't consufe Afghan pathans with Pakistani pathans.

Rajputs are not ruling anything in Rajasthan, they barely make 8% of population in Rajastan let alone India. Its desert and dirt poor state of India.


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## notsuperstitious

Shivaji was a leader with progressive thinking, vision (his pursuit of naval power) and religious tolerance. How many masjids his men destroyed when muslim forces would routinely destroy hindu temples in maharashtra? When a very beautiful daughter in law of the subedar of kalyan was captured by shivaji's general and he presented her to him, unlike most muslim heroes, shivaji shamed his victorious general by comparing her to his mother, then he gave her a copy of the Quran to show that she was as pak as the quran and sent her back to the subedar with full honor.

Muslims questioning his honor can be shamed in half a second, and they know it.


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## bronxbull

can someone ask two taka intellectual shan to stop quoting me?

gali ka kutta bhi peecha karna chod deta?

lekin yeh to?

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## dawn_news

You and jatt+gutts need special phanty from time to time. Rajasthan rajputs has been reduced to utter worthless beings, human garbaje basically. dharti ka bhoj ho tum sab bc


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## Water Car Engineer

Deccanese people always resisted outside aggression. More so than any other in the Subcontinent. Marathas are one of many South Deccan peoples not only to resist, but expand after wards.


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## SrNair

Our Shivaji great works.I like that courage.
By the way how the OP know about the body mass of Afzal Khan .Proabably he may be a comedian in darbar of Afzal Khan .And resurrected as Pak -one


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## Foot12

The Marathas still celebrate the heroic acts of Shivaji Maharaj and the killing of Afzal Khan.

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## ShahidT

afzal khan was stabbed in the back despite being unarmed. that is a fact. modi type hindus only made up a version that he tried to kill him first, to cover up for this pathetic man. 

think logically, if afzal khan wanted to kill this midget, there are hundreds of easier ways to do it when shiva was visiting enemy territory. reality is he made gesture in good faith and paid deeply for trusting the grand daddy of hindutvas.


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## SarthakGanguly

pehgaam e mohabbat said:


> afzal khan was stabbed in the back despite being unarmed. that is a fact. modi type hindus only made up a version that he tried to kill him first, to cover up for this pathetic man.
> 
> think logically, if afzal khan wanted to kill this midget, *there are hundreds of easier ways to do it* when shiva was visiting enemy territory. reality is he made gesture in good faith and paid deeply for trusting the grand daddy of hindutvas.


The opposite it also true.

In any case - we 'midget' Hindus are like this only. You can't expect anything better.
Too bad Afzal Khan did not have you as an advisor.

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## dawn_news

sreekumar said:


> Our Shivaji great works.I like that courage.
> By the way how the OP know about the body mass of Afzal Khan .Proabably he may be a comedian in darbar of Afzal Khan .And resurrected as Pak -one



You are south indian, you have no claim over Shivaji.



SarthakGanguly said:


> The opposite it also true.
> 
> In any case - we 'midget' Hindus are like this only. You can't expect anything better.
> Too bad Afzal Khan did not have you as an advisor.



Kashmiri of bihari origin being proud of Shivaji. Lol Did you forget the panthy bhaiayas received in 2009 Maharashtra riots? When supporters of Shivaji beat the shit out of North Indian bhaiyas.


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## SarthakGanguly

Nuri Natt said:


> You are south indian, you have no claim over Shivaji.
> 
> Kashmiri of bihari origin being proud of Shivaji. Lol Did you forget the panthy bhaiayas received in 2009 Maharashtra riots? When supporters of Shivaji beat the shit out of North Indian bhaiyas.


Me - Kashmiri of Bihari Origin?  Wow! I learn new things everytime. 

@Nuri Natt - err Shan sir - thanks, you opened my eyes. Again

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## dawn_news

SarthakGanguly said:


> Me of Bihari Origin?  Wow!



Shameless bhaiya claiming archivements of others. Tell me when Shivaji was fighting for Maharashtra, what were bhiayas doing in North? Yep thats it bhaiya history and yours.



pehgaam e mohabbat said:


> afzal khan was stabbed in the back despite being unarmed. that is a fact. modi type hindus only made up a version that he tried to kill him first, to cover up for this pathetic man.
> 
> think logically, if afzal khan wanted to kill this midget, there are hundreds of easier ways to do it when shiva was visiting enemy territory. reality is he made gesture in good faith and paid deeply for trusting the grand daddy of hindutvas.



If Afzal didnt killed someone in similar fashion then maybe. Now even if Shivaji attacked first people say look at Afzal history of killing guests.


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## ShahidT

Nuri Natt said:


> Kashmiri of bihari origin being proud of Shivaji. Lol Did you forget the panthy bhaiayas received in 2009 Maharashtra riots? When supporters of Shivaji beat the shit out of North Indian bhaiyas.



haha i read about this. that bal thackery guys went and beat up sikhs in their own state! LMAO

how pathetic sikhs once were a ferocious people, now getting kicked around by maratha hindus in their own house

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## dawn_news

SarthakGanguly said:


> Me - Kashmiri of Bihari Origin?  Wow! I learn new things everytime.
> 
> @Nuri Natt - err Shan sir - thanks, you opened my eyes. Again



Very funny you are 100th user to call me shan, its not funny anymore. Because i already said im shan lol


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## ghilzai

Roybot said:


> Yeah all that honor an stuff was the reason why Prithviraj Chouhan pardoned and let Mohammed Ghori a war prisoner go, and what did it get him?
> 
> Honor and respect is for the people who deserve it, and Afzal Khan wasn't one of them.



He never captured ghuri, even Indian historians admit that but some will not to save face as they got slaughtered an raped by ghuri.


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## dawn_news

pehgaam e mohabbat said:


> haha i read about this. that bal thackery guys went and beat up sikhs in their own state! LMAO
> 
> how pathetic sikhs once were a ferocious people, now getting kicked around by maratha hindus in their own house



In 2009 they beat North Indian bhiayas, Biharis and UP. Yes we think north india mean punjab and kashmir but they include bihar and up as well. But Sikhs were also beaten in 2008 by Shivaji supporters.


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## ghilzai

Srinivas said:


> Yes Pashtuns have very good code I agree!!
> 
> But how many of them followed it strictly while invading India??
> 
> Raping women and killing unarmed Brahmins and destroying temples !!
> 
> I think most of them deviated from Pashtunvali.



Pushtoonvali is not applicable to sub humans. 

Sorry but it's a hard fact.


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## dawn_news

ghilzai said:


> He never captured ghuri, even Indian historians admit that but some will not to save face as they got slaughtered an raped by ghuri.



Well you see history from neutral pov, they see it from hindutva pov. They keep coming up with excuses for their defeates.

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## KingMamba

I have read a lot about Shivaji and he was no doubt one of the finest rulers of South Asia but his rebellion had little to do with religion like Indians are trying to make it out as and the Muslim invasions had likewise little to do with religion.


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## Butchcassidy

Pak-one said:


> Shut the fck up @shan. I didnt open this thread to bash hindus. It is about particular persons in a particular incident. Muslims also committed treachery at various occasions


Hey bro, if you have time could you give us some background on pashtun history. Like where is their original homeland, which tribes are considered as original and which ones later merged to form the pashtun nation, how and when did the pashtun people come to inhabit KPK and FATA and what linguistic and other differences, if any, are found in the northern pashtuns and southern pashtuns.
At your own discretion sir.


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## ghilzai

Butchcassidy said:


> Hey bro, if you have time could you give us some background on pashtun history. Like where is their original homeland, which tribes are considered as original and which ones later merged to form the pashtun nation, how and when did the pashtun people come to inhabit KPK and FATA and what linguistic and other differences, if any, are found in the northern pashtuns and southern pashtuns.
> At your own discretion sir.



You asking a Razakar that question?, god help you then.


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## Srinivas

ghilzai said:


> Pushtoonvali is not applicable to sub humans.
> Sorry but it's a *hard fact*.



It is not hard fact but a fart !!


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## ghilzai

Nuri Natt said:


> Well you see history from neutral pov, they see it from hindutva pov. They keep coming up with excuses for their defeates.



You can't change facts the man destroyed an opponent that was well armed had large numbers, had elephants and so on but lacked the courage of Ghurids.

We openly admit we lost the first battle so why wouldn't we admit a capture?.

Vengeance is our game and second time around the bravery of Ghuris opponent was exposed as he ran from the battlefield leaving his men behind.

Ran like a coward and then killed like a coward.


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## INDIC

ghilzai said:


> Pushtoonvali is not applicable to sub humans.
> 
> Sorry but it's a hard fact.



That's called delusion. 



ghilzai said:


> He never captured ghuri, even Indian historians admit that but some will not to save face as they got slaughtered an raped by ghuri.



But why did Ghakkars killed Ghauri.


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## ghilzai

Srinivas said:


> It is not hard fact but a fart !!



Pushtoonwali is not applicable to such people, you can say whatever you like.


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## dawn_news

ghilzai said:


> You can't change facts the man destroyed an opponent that was well armed had large numbers, had elephants and so on but lacked the courage of Ghurids.
> 
> We openly admit we lost the first battle so why wouldn't we admit a capture?.
> 
> Vengeance is our game and second time around the bravery of Ghuris opponent was exposed as he ran from the battlefield leaving his men behind.
> 
> Ran like a coward and then killed like a coward.



Also this excuse doesnt make any sense, even if someone had killed Ghuri in first battle it doesnt mean end of invasions. Someone else would have replaced him, it was inevitable.

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## ghilzai

INDIC said:


> That's called delusion.
> 
> 
> 
> But why did Ghakkars killed Ghauri.



What's ghakkars got to do with capture?, why don't you just stick to topic and stop quoting me with your nonsense.

Ghuri was assassinated while praying, he didn't run from the battle and leave his men, big difference there.


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## jaatram

Nuri Natt said:


> Also this excuse doesnt make any sense, even if someone had killed Ghuri in first battle it doesnt mean end of invasions. Someone else would have replaced him, it was inevitable.


yea just like some other muslims replaced the failed attempt to conquer India from Arab.

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## dawn_news

ghilzai said:


> What's ghakkars got to do with capture?, why don't you just stick to topic and stop quoting me with your nonsense.
> 
> Ghuri was assassinated while praying, he didn't run from the battle and leave his men, big difference there.



Who run away from battle?


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## SarthakGanguly

jaatram said:


> yea just like some other muslims replaced the failed attempt to conquer India from Arab.


You need to be very careful here  Never get abusive

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## jaatram

SarthakGanguly said:


> You need to be very careful here  Never get abusive


thank you for the heads up bruv.

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## INDIC

Srinivas said:


> It is not hard fact but a fart !!



Perhaps @ghilzai is forgetting the people of their kind were referred as barbarians and inferiors by Indians. Indic race made great contribution founded Taxila-Nalanda, made lots of inventions and discoveries and wrote great epics. I can't understand his crappy brainfarts when those invaders even don't know how to cultivate food and dwelled in tents and he calling others as subhumans.

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## EyanKhan

Butchcassidy said:


> Hey bro, if you have time could you give us some background on pashtun history. Like where is their original homeland, which tribes are considered as original and which ones later merged to form the pashtun nation, how and when did the pashtun people come to inhabit KPK and FATA and what linguistic and other differences, if any, are found in the northern pashtuns and southern pashtuns.
> At your own discretion sir.


Here is a brief review
Actually there is no original homeland but homelands as the Pashtun evolved from many different people

the basic Ones are east Iranic tribes and later the mixing of Scythian tribes(For ex the Sarakzai claim descent from Scythians) , there is a theory that some of the lost tribes of Judea mixed came to Afghanistan and beyond and there is some basic proof although there are still holes to be solved in that theory(Yosufzai is the largest pashtun tribe , Yousafzai stands for son of Yousuf/Joseph) Then there were the Turkic people , alot of the tribes pashtunized most famous being the Ghilzais!
There is also a theory that Kashmiris were basically the same people as Pashtuns who ventured into the Kashmir valley and were baffled by its beauty and never returned. Later the diffrences arised because both mixed with different people and were influenced by different groups/civilization! 
Oh almost forgot this one , some also claim greek descent or greek mixing (though this effect is mostly seen in the northern Pashtuns) , Remeber that Alexander left a significant portion of his army there and the subsequent greco0Bactrian kingdoms
I would have given you a better explaination with appropriate links but I am extremely busy these days due to exams.

I had an extremely good link with refrences given about the lost tribe theory, if I find it i'l share it.

@ghilzai @Pak-one bro would you like to add/correct something in this explaination?

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## ghilzai

Nuri Natt said:


> Who run away from battle?



The man by the name of Prithvi Raj Chuhan ran from the second battle with Ghuri, He ran and left his men but he was captured and killed.

His skeleton was shifted to Khorasan, his bones rot there to this day.


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## INDIC

ghilzai said:


> What's ghakkars got to do with capture?, why don't you just stick to topic and stop quoting me with your nonsense.
> 
> Ghuri was assassinated while praying, he didn't run from the battle and leave his men, big difference there.



So, blame of murder of Ghori goes to West Punjab.


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## dawn_news

ghilzai said:


> The man by the name of Prithvi Raj Chuhan ran from the second battle with Ghuri, He ran and left his men but he was captured and killed.
> 
> His skeleton was shifted to Khorasan, his bones rot there to this day.



Wtff

Never knew about this part, i bet hindutva have invented their own version.


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## ghilzai

EyanKhan said:


> Here is a brief review
> Actually there is no original homeland but homelands as the Pashtun evolved from many different people
> 
> the basic Ones are east Iranic tribes and later the mixing of Scythian tribes(For ex the Sarakzai claim descent from Scythians) , there is a theory that some of the lost tribes of Judea mixed came to Afghanistan and beyond and there is some basic proof although there are still holes to be solved in that theory(Yosufzai is the largest pashtun tribe , Yousafzai stands for son of Yousuf/Joseph) Then there were the Turkic people , alot of the tribes pashtunized most famous being the Ghilzais!
> There is also a theory that Kashmiris were basically the same people as Pashtuns who ventured into the Kashmir valley and were baffled by its beauty and never returned. Later the diffrences arised because both mixed with different people and were influenced by different groups/civilization!
> I would have given you a better explaination with appropriate links but I am extremely busy these days due to exams.
> 
> I had an extremely good link with refrences given about the lost tribe theory, if I find it i'l share it.



Yusufzais are not Semitic this was a label applied to make them sound Bani Israel and thus ensuring automatic right to rule.

They are also not the biggest tribe, they are mostly farmers that have been pushed towards the Indus River.

Pukhtoons can be iranic or Turkic, the only thing is some of us will never use the word afghan as to us it's always khurasan.

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## INDIC

Butchcassidy said:


> Hey bro, if you have time could you give us some background on pashtun history. Like where is their original homeland, which tribes are considered as original and which ones later merged to form the pashtun nation, how and when did the pashtun people come to inhabit KPK and FATA and what linguistic and other differences, if any, are found in the northern pashtuns and southern pashtuns.
> At your own discretion sir.



Historians believe Pashtuns originated from East Iranic Paktha tribe who later mixed with Scythians, Huns etc. They started living in KPK since 9 th century.

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## EyanKhan

ghilzai said:


> They are also not the biggest tribe, they are most farmers that have been pushed towards the Indus River.


True Yousafzai's along with Khattak's are usually the educated city folk , yes they have left Tribalism and it is time for the rest to leave it to!
Btw population wise they are the largest now

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## dawn_news

EyanKhan said:


> True Yousafzai's along with Khattak's are usually the educated city folk , yes they have left Tribalism and it is time for the rest to leave it to!
> Btw population wise they are the largest now



Expected, when you settle down populations increases. Also i bet infant mortality rate is alot lower in settled areas. While in others only strong and healthy childrens survive.

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## ghilzai

EyanKhan said:


> Here is a brief review
> Actually there is no original homeland but homelands as the Pashtun evolved from many different people
> 
> the basic Ones are east Iranic tribes and later the mixing of Scythian tribes(For ex the Sarakzai claim descent from Scythians) , there is a theory that some of the lost tribes of Judea mixed came to Afghanistan and beyond and there is some basic proof although there are still holes to be solved in that theory(Yosufzai is the largest pashtun tribe , Yousafzai stands for son of Yousuf/Joseph) Then there were the Turkic people , alot of the tribes pashtunized most famous being the Ghilzais!
> There is also a theory that Kashmiris were basically the same people as Pashtuns who ventured into the Kashmir valley and were baffled by its beauty and never returned. Later the diffrences arised because both mixed with different people and were influenced by different groups/civilization!
> I would have given you a better explaination with appropriate links but I am extremely busy these days due to exams.
> 
> I had an extremely good link with refrences given about the lost tribe theory, if I find it i'l share it.
> 
> @ghilzai @Pak-one bro would you like to add/correct something in this explaination?



You summed it up well, nothing to add really.



EyanKhan said:


> True Yousafzai's along with Khattak's are usually the educated city folk , yes they have left Tribalism and it is time for the rest to leave it to!
> Btw population wise they are the largest now



True but they lost that spark that other Qabilas carry, but they still Pukhtoon and that's what matters.



INDIC said:


> Perhaps @ghilzai is forgetting the people of their kind were referred as barbarians and inferiors by Indians. Indic race made great contribution founded Taxila-Nalanda, made lots of inventions and discoveries and wrote great epics. I can't understand his crappy brainfarts when those invaders even don't know how to cultivate food and dwelled in tents and he calling others as subhumans.



All that and you still lost with all the tactics, education, inventions, discoveries. All that meant nothing when it came to the crunch.

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## ghilzai

INDIC said:


> So, blame of murder of Ghori goes to West Punjab.



You couldn't expect the Indians to do it now could you?.


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## INDIC

ghilzai said:


> All that and you still lost with all the tactics, education, inventions, discoveries. All that meant nothing when it came to the crunch.



There are many instances where inferior civilization have conquered the advanced cultures, even Rome was conquered by Barbarian Visigoths, so certainly the words like subhumans sounds extremely gibberish. Every culture goes through bad time. Not only Indians, many races who formed great empires got conquered by others.


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## anonymus

ghilzai said:


> All that and you still lost with all the tactics, education, inventions, discoveries. All that meant nothing when it came to the crunch.



I find it a little odd that a race whose worth is less than that of a gutter dwelling worm with exactly zero contribution to humanity is trying to look down down upon a race having far greater accomplishments in it's collective history and which even today is more respected and superior in every sense possible.


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## ghilzai

anonymus said:


> I find it a little odd that a race whose worth is less than that of a gutter dwelling worm with exactly zero contribution to humanity is trying to look down down upon a race having far greater accomplishments in it's collective history and which even today is more respected and superior in every sense possible.



What achievements what history what civilisation?.

Indus etc is not yours it belongs to people who live in it who have brought it.

Another Dravidian trying to claim This as his ha ha ha ha


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## dawn_news

anonymus said:


> I find it a little odd that a race whose worth is less than that of a gutter dwelling worm with exactly zero contribution to humanity is trying to look down down upon a race having far greater accomplishments in it's collective history and which even today is more respected and superior in every sense possible.



No offence but don't claim our archivements either. As long as you stick with Bharoti history its all right. Here we have biharis bhaiyas claiming Shivaji. While Shivaji supporters from Maharahstra despises them in the land of shivaji. I wonder what they will say when bihari bhaiya claim Shivaji as his own?

IVC, Rig Vedic, Ghandhara etc its all our history passed down to primitive race of India.

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## INDIC

ghilzai said:


> What achievements what history what civilisation?.
> 
> Indus etc is not yours it belongs to people who live in it who have brought it.
> 
> Another Dravidian trying to claim This as his ha ha ha ha



That's looks like your inferiority complex. 



Nuri Natt said:


> No offence but don't claim our archivements either. As long as you stick with Bharoti history its all right. Here we have biharis bhaiyas claiming Shivaji. While Shivaji supporters from Maharahstra despises them in the land of shivaji. I wonder what they will say when bihari bhaiya claim Shivaji as his own?
> 
> IVC, Rig Vedic, Ghandhara etc its all our history passed down to primitive race of India.



The self hating wannabe Arab-Persian are no body to tell us what to claim what not to claim.

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## anonymus

ghilzai said:


> What achievements what history what civilisation?.
> 
> Indus etc is not yours it belongs to people who live in it who have brought it.
> 
> Another Dravidian trying to claim This as his ha ha ha ha




A classical case of frontal brain lobotomy done in **** Madrassas or even schools for that matter.You people believe that history ends at IVC and restarts with Bin-Qasim.


India does not require IVC or even Veda's to establish cultural supremacy over lowlifes like you. Even if we discount them completely,we still have 2000 years of history and culture to be proud of. Golden age of Indian science and Mathematics lies between 300-500AD.

Even so called dravidians have achieved higher greater civilizational zenith than your useless turd of a race.

And you need not look back into distant past;look at the situation of both races today. You maggoty ghizali tribe is nothing but a pretend turkic goat humping bacchabaz's who are reviled and squatted by everyone and have highest prostitutes per capita while living on handouts of other countries compared to Indians whose country is on ascendancy.

You have no culture, no contribution to the world that you could call your's and nothing which could carry legacy of your pathetic race forward.


@INDIC I am going to sleep. Take care of this pathetic troll with hyper inflated ego.And provide him with proofs if this useless sub-human creature needs some.

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## Foot12

anonymus said:


> A classical case of frontal brain lobotomy done in **** Madrassas or even schools for that matter.You people believe that history ends at IVC and restarts with Bin-Qasim.
> 
> 
> India does not require IVC or even Veda's to establish cultural supremacy over lowlifes like you. Even if we discount them completely,we still have 2000 years of history and culture to be proud of. Golden age of Indian science and Mathematics lies between 300-500AD.
> 
> Even so called dravidians have achieved higher greater civilizational zenith than your useless turd of a race.
> 
> And you need not look back into distant past;look at the situation of both races today. You people are nothing but a goat humping bacchabaz's who are reviled and squatted by everyone and have highest prostitutes per capita while living on handouts of other countries compared to Indians whose country is on ascendancy.
> 
> You have no culture, no contribution to the world that you could call your's and nothing which could carry legacy of your pathetic race forward.


Its funny that Pakistanis and Afghans don't even have their own writing system and still use the Arab writing system 
of their former masters. On the other hand the Indians still use their own writing systems.

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## he-man

Foot12 said:


> Its funny that Pakistanis and Afghans don't even have their own writing system and still use the Arab writing system
> of their former masters. On the other hand the Indians still use their own writing systems.



Music still uses the ragas given by our ancestors in the subcontinent

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## INDIC

he-man said:


> Music still uses the ragas given by our ancestors in the subcontinent



Only the self hating wannabe Arab-Persian from West of Radcliffe line like @Nuri Natt live in delusion that Sindhi-Punjabis aren't related to Indian race and foreign guys like @ghilzai will lecture us about our Indian race.

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## Jaggu

why do all the threads turn into flame wars? Take it easy guys. Lets discuss these great historical events like mature individuals living in the modern world instead of like school yard children.

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## ExtraOdinary

anonymus said:


> Dude,
> 
> It is this ghizali idiot who started this.


Ignore the racist trolls, they live a pathetic life and need a space to vent out


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## dawn_news

he-man said:


> Music still uses the ragas given by our ancestors in the subcontinent



The only thing chamar sikh have given is proof of how low human iq can get.



anonymus said:


> A classical case of frontal brain lobotomy done in **** Madrassas or even schools for that matter.You people believe that history ends at IVC and restarts with Bin-Qasim.
> 
> 
> India does not require IVC or even Veda's to establish cultural supremacy over lowlifes like you. Even if we discount them completely,we still have 2000 years of history and culture to be proud of. Golden age of Indian science and Mathematics lies between 300-500AD.
> 
> Even so called dravidians have achieved higher greater civilizational zenith than your useless turd of a race.
> 
> And you need not look back into distant past;look at the situation of both races today. You maggoty ghizali tribe is nothing but a pretend turkic goat humping bacchabaz's who are reviled and squatted by everyone and have highest prostitutes per capita while living on handouts of other countries compared to Indians whose country is on ascendancy.
> 
> You have no culture, no contribution to the world that you could call your's and nothing which could carry legacy of your pathetic race forward.
> 
> 
> @INDIC I am going to sleep. Take care of this pathetic troll with hyper inflated ego.And provide him with proofs if this useless sub-human creature needs some.



He is Pakistani, don't confuse him with your Afghani friend pak-one. Indians are sorry race, if one can even call them human race. Even your last 2000 years of civilization is basically passed down from pure land to primitive beings of India. This is historical fact which no can deny, all you can say we all were one lol and then see us spit in your ugly faces. Anyway i don't know what are you bosting about? India is still more hungry then anyother south asian nation according to 2013 report. There is nothing to brag about.

Provide them with proof lol yes provide proof how IVC, Ghandara, Rig Vedic started in Bharat and moved to pure land. If you can provide proof of that then all right otherwise stfu


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## Water Car Engineer

Nuri Natt said:


> Indians are sorry race, if one can even call them human race. Even your last 2000 years of civilization is basically passed down from pure land to primitive beings of India. This is historical fact which no can deny, all you can say we all were one lol and then see us spit in your ugly faces.




The last 2000 years you guys werent even independent. If you were, it would be for a mini second. Constantly getting invaded by others.

Do you know what for example Deccan-Andras were doing while you guys were getting violated in 2nd BC?

They were creating these societies and cities.




































_Independently _


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## dawn_news

Water Car Engineer said:


> The last 2000 years you guys were even independent. Constantly getting invaded by others.
> 
> Do you know what for example Deccanese were doing why you guys were getting violated?
> 
> They were creating these>>



No offence but couple of temples are not worthy archivements. Certanly not compared to the ones who passed that knowledge to your kind. Good thing we were getting invaded so some of our ancestors got to your kind and made them civilized. Anyway current day 60% of Indians defecate openly compared to 18% Pakistanis. I would say you guys and Pakistanis also have alot of catching up to do with modern world. Instead of living in past non-existant glory. Because lets face it i bet 95% of population was banned to enter these temples in ancient times.

And you guys need to do even more faster then us.


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## Water Car Engineer

Nuri Natt said:


> No offence but couple of temples are not worthy archivements. Certanly not compared to the ones who passed that knowledge to your kind. Good thing we were getting invaded so some of our ancestors got to your kind and made them civilized. Anyway current day 60% of Indians defecate openly compared to 18% Pakistanis. I would say you guys and Pakistanis also have alot of catching up to do with modern world. Instead of living in past non-existant glory. Because lets face it i bet 95% of population was banned to enter these temples in ancient times.
> 
> And you guys need to do even more faster then us.




They passed down a _primitive/prototype_ of a religion and language. This very much evolved within India.

India's civilization is very much Indian. There is nothing like it outside India, other than the places Indian civilization touched like S.E. Asia. Islam and Iran's script has Arabic origin, but Iranian civilization is much more vast than that. Christianity is Middle Eastern, but Europe is much more vast than that.





































etc
etc
etc

No horse riding nomad passed this down.

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## dawn_news

Water Car Engineer said:


> They passed down a _primitive/prototype_ of a religion and language. This very much evolved within India.
> 
> India's civilization is very much Indian. There is nothing like it outside India, other than the place Indian civilization touched like S.E. Asia. Islam and Iran's script has Arabic origin, but Iranian civilization is much more vast than that. Christianity is Middle Eastern, but Europe is much more vast than that.
> 
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> etc
> etc
> etc
> 
> 
> 
> No horse riding nomad passed this down.



Again posting pictures of temples. Men you guys don't need anything else, just stay there and use them as toilets. It may decrease % Indians defecating openly. It was passed down, and as i said 95% of native population was banned to enter temples for being low caste.


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## Gandhi G in da house

Nuri Natt said:


> No offence but couple of temples are not worthy archivements. Certanly not compared to the ones who passed that knowledge to your kind. Good thing we were getting invaded so some of our ancestors got to your kind and made them civilized.* Anyway current day 60% of Indians defecate openly compared to 18% Pakistanis*. I would say you guys and Pakistanis also have alot of catching up to do with modern world. Instead of living in past non-existant glory. Because lets face it i bet 95% of population was banned to enter these temples in ancient times.
> 
> And you guys need to do even more faster then us.


 

What remains the credibility of an individual who lies so openly. Pathological liars as many have said already ?

Two-thirds get electricity: Less than half of Pakistanis have access to sanitation, says WB – The Express Tribune

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## dawn_news

nick_indian said:


> What remains the credibility of an individual who lies so openly. Pathological liars as many have said already ?
> 
> Two-thirds get electricity: Less than half of Pakistanis have access to sanitation, says WB – The Express Tribune



Well read the thread on pdf about report, especially posts by HRC. Pak figure is 18%. So that tells us your crediblity. And that report is isnt talking about toilets.

Yes Pak rural + urban population open defecating is 18%. Indian population rural + urban is 51%, rural alone is 60%. But total Indian population open defecating is 51% according to that thread compared to Pakistan 18%.


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## Water Car Engineer

Nuri Natt said:


> Again posting pictures of temples. Men you guys don't need anything else, just stay there and use them as toilets. It may decrease % Indians defecating openly. It was passed down, and as i said 95% of native population was banned to enter temples for being low caste.




Temples, okay. Guess what guy? Most people built religious works back then. Do you even know what it takes to build such structures. The technique these artists had?

To not only go to a rock cliff and carve the exterior














But bore through rock with simple tools?

and paint every single piece of wall as well in the dark with just torches?











Guess what the mighty Pakistan land was doing? Getting T-bagged by whoever wanted that piece of land. Persians, Parthians, Kushans, whoever. So maybe you should humble yourself.

Of course you're going to bring up defecation, you have nothing better to say. You're just some racist idiot who builds up some sort of superior complex off of things that happened god knows how long ago.

You're one hilarious guy. You have a massive inferior complex in real life and hollow superior complex on the internet.

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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

Remember that shivaji with small force was trapped in fort of pratabgarh. He couldnt take on afzal khan who had massive force of 10 thousands. After 5 months of siege, shivaji was running out of food, they were in desparate situation so they engaged afzal khan in negotiations....it was afzal khan stupidity to talk with nearly defeated man. Mughal and bijapuri sources blame shivaji for treachery, afzal khan was advised not to agree with shivaji's place pratabgarh for meeting but he trusted him due to his late father. It turned the course of history, the nearly annihilated and hopeless shivaji emerged as power after this act of treachery.

@Nuri Natt keep on believing maratha sources, you look like a fool


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## dawn_news

Water Car Engineer said:


> Temples, okay. Guess what guy? Most people built religious works back then. Do you even know what it takes to build such structures. The technique these artists had?
> 
> To not only go to a rock cliff and carve the exterior
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But bore through rock with simple tools?
> 
> and paint every single piece of wall as well in the dark with just torches?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Guess what the mighty Pakistan land was doing? Getting T-bagged by whoever wanted that piece of land. Persians, Parthians, Kushans, whoever. So maybe you should humble yourself.
> 
> Of course you're going to bring up defecation, you have nothing better to say. You're just some racist idiot who builds up some sort of superior complex off of things that happened god knows how long ago.
> 
> You're one hilarious guy. You have a massive inferior complex in real life and hollow superior complex on the internet.



again pictures of temples, pitful. Nothing more to show then bunch of temples build by few elites who banned 95% of population from entering it. And complex talk coming from a guy who keep posting temple pictures to prove how advance they were is just ironic.

Come back to real life where 80% low castes hindus, tribals still suffers from elite 20%. 51% of you have no access to toilets, India is more hungry then anyother south asian nation as of 2013. And you talk about civilization which was passed down to your kind. low caste girls still are taken advantage of in temples just like in old times.

Forget about them, when people think of India Taj Mahal comes to their mind not temples with pigs having sex statues. And the way are you explaning almost seem like aliens build them, while actually are not that impressive especially when all you have is to build temples with 95% slave population.

These temples are not even that old anyway.


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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

Butchcassidy said:


> Hey bro, if you have time could you give us some background on pashtun history. Like where is their original homeland, which tribes are considered as original and which ones later merged to form the pashtun nation, how and when did the pashtun people come to inhabit KPK and FATA and what linguistic and other differences, if any, are found in the northern pashtuns and southern pashtuns.
> At your own discretion sir.


Historians agee that pashtuns original and primary abode was koh e sulieman (balochistan) , from there they expanded into present day Afghanistan in unknow time line. It is known that during mahmood ghaznavi times they were already in eastren afghanistan while of the tribe dilazak had migrated to present day KPK and were settled in malakhand division, peshawer, hazara and attock. Dilazak pashtuns were supporters of mahmud ghaznavi. So khyber pakhtunkhwa was colonized by pakhtuns one thousand years ago.

Durranis, yousafzais, kakars, mohmands eta are considered true afghans/pashtuns. While ghilzais, ghorids etc are considered assimilated ones. According to Pashtun oral history, which is passed down generations, ghiljay and lodhi were children of a pashtun lady bibi mato and prince of ghor, shah hussain ghori. 

Karlanri pakhtun tribes who inhabit FATA, have unknown origins but are oldest inhabitants, aborigines.
Northren pakhtuns speak hard dialect, kheen. They modify sheen word with kheen. E.g hoshiar (clever) is modified to hokhiar. Southren pashtuns speak original sheen dialect.

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## Water Car Engineer

Nuri Natt said:


> again pictures of temples, pitful. Nothing more to show then bunch of temples build by few elites who banned 95% of population from entering it.



What do you think reality was back then for most people? You think there was equality in other parts of ancient world? It's always a few elite who has the wealth and power. It's still like that to this day, but we have more room to breath. 



> And you talk about civilization which was passed down to your kind.



None of that was passed down, except for a prototype of a religion and language. Now, I dont know why that would be a bad thing, considering your own religion, your text, your architecture, etc, etc, etc. isnt even from Pakistan. And is dominating from North Africa to Central Asia, but is Arabic in origin.



> Forget about them, when people think of India Taj Mahal comes to their mind not temples with pigs having sex statues. And the way are you explaning almost seem like aliens build them, while actually are not that impressive especially when all you have is to build temples with 95% slave population.



Not that impressive okay, funny considering Pakistan literally doesn't have anything for the last 2000 years except violation from their neighbors.



> And complex talk coming from a guy who keep posting temple pictures to prove how advance they were is just ironic.



Art work like that is an example of a complex civilization, yes.


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## SrNair

Nuri Natt said:


> You are south indian, you have no claim over Shivaji.
> 
> 
> 
> Kashmiri of bihari origin being proud of Shivaji. Lol Did you forget the panthy bhaiayas received in 2009 Maharashtra riots? When supporters of Shivaji beat the shit out of North Indian bhaiyas.



Shivaji was an Hindu.And I am also a Hindu.In India Shivaji was a freedom fighter.So all of us Indians claim him.He was the son of our Bharat Mata.

Your tricks to divide Marathis with others dont work here.


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## SrNair

Nuri Natt said:


> No offence but couple of temples are not worthy archivements. Certanly not compared to the ones who passed that knowledge to your kind. Good thing we were getting invaded so some of our ancestors got to your kind and made them civilized. Anyway current day 60% of Indians defecate openly compared to 18% Pakistanis. I would say you guys and Pakistanis also have alot of catching up to do with modern world. Instead of living in past non-existant glory. Because lets face it i bet 95% of population was banned to enter these temples in ancient times.
> 
> And you guys need to do even more faster then us.



You boast about foreign invaders accomplishment against your land and claim they made you civilized.But we Indians like our culture and believe our culture is more civilized than your foreign masters and we are descendants of an advanced vedic culture.
Friend that is the difference between us.


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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

INDIC said:


> So, blame of murder of Ghori goes to West Punjab.


Ghakkars of potohar were enemies of Afghans. They supported babur and then hamayun against Afghans. Sher shah suri built rohtas fort to keep eye on them, his son islam shah crushed them mercilessly. They were in good shape during mughal times , on behalf of mughals they fought many wars with turbulent afghans on other side of indus. They tried to put up resistance against afghans of abdali but were crushed and destroyed , relieving pressure from niazi pashtuns who were enemies of ghakkars. They sided with ranjeet singh against their historical enemy pashtuns/afghans.
Kayanis are ghakkars, they are in very large number in pak army.
@Nuri Natt @Multani

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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

EyanKhan said:


> True Yousafzai's along with Khattak's are usually the educated city folk , yes they have left Tribalism and it is time for the rest to leave it to!
> Btw population wise they are the largest now


They have not left tribal infracture. Infact khattaks are one of the most tribalistic people with tribal nationalism...remember FCR is not tribalism. Khattaks (of karak) are traditional pashtuns
yousafzai is a large tribe with varieties. Yousafzai of dir or torghar is as ferocious and traditional as those of FATA compared to those of swat, mardan and swabi. But yeat their tribal society is story of past.Yousafzais are traditional at some places but are losing some traditions in plains but at national level they are still regarded as traditional.
Nothing wrong with keeping traditionalism while getting educated. Pashtuns, no matter how much educated they are, do not give up on their langauge, culture, dress, music, traditions etc, in general. Dont tell me you are wearing pant shirts?


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## Multani

Pak-one said:


> Ghakkars of potohar were enemies of Afghans. They supported babur and then hamayun against Afghans. Sher shah suri built rohtas fort to keep eye on them, his son islam shah crushed them mercilessly. They were in good shape during mughal times but tried to put up resistance against afghans of abdali but were crushed and destroyed , relieving pressure from niazi pashtuns who were enemies of ghakkars.
> Kayanis are ghakkars, they are in very large number in pak army.
> @Nuri Natt @Multani


 
you speak like in legends. If Ghakkars were defeated and destroyed, then how come they are still there and the strongest Muslim Rajputs of all? you speak as if Muslims are enemies of each other. Your mind set is like Dog eat Dog.

A true Afghan never speaks like you. A true Afghan is spiritual, and merciful. Niazis are now Punjabis.

you are an enemy of Pakistan and Pakistanis, and Muslims of Pakistan.


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## Foot12

nick_indian said:


> What remains the credibility of an individual who lies so openly. Pathological liars as many have said already ?
> 
> Two-thirds get electricity: Less than half of Pakistanis have access to sanitation, says WB – The Express Tribune


Pakistanis are well known for being liars.

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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

Multani said:


> you speak like in legends. If Ghakkars were defeated and destroyed, then how come they are still there and the strongest Muslim Rajputs of all? you speak as if Muslims are enemies of each other. Your mind set is like Dog eat Dog.
> 
> A true Afghan never speaks like you. A true Afghan is spiritual, and merciful. Niazis are now Punjabis.
> 
> you are an enemy of Pakistan and Pakistanis, and Muslims of Pakistan.


Militarily defeated and destroyed. I didnt say afghans committed massacre of general ghakkar population.
Bareilwi sahab its you who speak in legends. Muslims spilled the blood of muslims for most of the time in subcontinent. Both mughals and afghans were hanafi muslims yet they spilled the blood of each other for two centuries.
If @Nuri Natt is to be believed, then ghakkars sided with ranjeet singh against their historical enemies pashtuns. Stop living in naseem hijazi fantasy

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## Butchcassidy

Pak-one said:


> Historians agee that pashtuns original and primary abode was koh e sulieman (balochistan) , from there they expanded into present day Afghanistan in unknow time line. It is known that during mahmood ghaznavi times they were already in eastren afghanistan while of the tribe dilazak had migrated to present day KPK and were settled in malakhand division, peshawer, hazara and attock. Dilazak pashtuns were supporters of mahmud ghaznavi. So khyber pakhtunkhwa was colonized by pakhtuns one thousand years ago.
> 
> Durranis, yousafzais, kakars, mohmands eta are considered true afghans/pashtuns. While ghilzais, ghorids etc are considered assimilated ones. According to Pashtun oral history, which is passed down generations, ghiljay and lodhi were children of a pashtun lady bibi mato and prince of ghor, shah hussain ghori.
> 
> Karlanri pakhtun tribes who inhabit FATA, have unknown origins but are oldest inhabitants, aborigines.
> Northren pakhtuns speak hard dialect, kheen. They modify sheen word with kheen. E.g hoshiar (clever) is modified to hokhiar. Southren pashtuns speak original sheen dialect.


Thanks Pak-one. You would be surprised to know that in kashmir there is a village of pashtuns who still speak pashto at home and have maintained their culture. There is areport about them somewhere on youtube. Also i was reading a paper and it mentioned that there is greater genetic diversity in pashtuns from the north compared to those from the south.


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## INDIC

Multani said:


> you speak like in legends. If Ghakkars were defeated and destroyed, then how come they are still there and the strongest Muslim Rajputs of all? you speak as if Muslims are enemies of each other. Your mind set is like Dog eat Dog.
> 
> A true Afghan never speaks like you. A true Afghan is spiritual, and merciful. Niazis are now Punjabis.
> 
> you are an enemy of Pakistan and Pakistanis, and Muslims of Pakistan.



History is always full of surprises and it seems even Pakistanis aren't aware of it.

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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

Butchcassidy said:


> Thanks Pak-one. You would be surprised to know that in kashmir there is a village of pashtuns who still speak pashto at home and have maintained their culture. There is areport about them somewhere on youtube. Also i was reading a paper and it mentioned that there is greater genetic diversity in pashtuns from the north compared to those from the south.


You mean this? Khyber TV a raging hit amongst Kashmiri Pashtuns
Its very interesting, it means pashto is one of the langauges of India

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## Ammyy

INDIC said:


> History is always full of surprises and it seems even Pakistanis aren't aware of it.



Because they wrote their own version not reality in their books.


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## bronxbull

ghilzai said:


> What achievements what history what civilisation?.
> 
> Indus etc is not yours it belongs to people who live in it who have brought it.
> 
> Another Dravidian trying to claim This as his ha ha ha ha



ghilzai,

u have zero auqaat to say that pathan conquered this and thus we?

those are individual conquests,unko apnana hain toh kam se kam army mein toh shamil ho jaa?

yahaan baitke zabaan chalaane,kuch nahi hoga.

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## EyanKhan

Pak-one said:


> Dont tell me you are wearing pant shirts?


Sometimes


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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

bronxbull said:


> ghilzai,
> 
> u have zero auqaat to say that pathan conquered this and thus we?
> 
> those are individual conquests,unko apnana hain toh kam se kam army mein toh shamil ho jaa?
> 
> yahaan baitke zabaan chalaane,kuch nahi hoga.


Ghilzai is confused person with identity crisis. He said that he spits on afghans and dont want to associate with afghanistan. On the other hand is associating himself with ghaur here. 
He is so stupid that by calling pritviraj chauhan coward and weak, he is actually reducing the wieght of shahbudin ghauri's final victory over chauhan. If ghauri got defeated in first war then it means chauhan was quite powerful.

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## livingdead

Pak-one said:


> Ghilzai is confused person with identity crisis. He said that he spits on afghans and dont want to associate with afghanistan. On the other hand is associating himself with ghaur here.
> He is so stupid that by calling pritviraj chauhan coward and weak, he is actually reducing the wieght of shahbudin ghauri's final victory over chauhan. If ghauri got defeated in first war then it means chauhan was quite powerful.


rajputs are not rajputs anymore, nor are the pathan. New warrier race are made every so often, I dont know why we are still living in the past.

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## he-man

Pak-one said:


> Ghilzai is confused person with identity crisis. He said that he spits on afghans and dont want to associate with afghanistan. On the other hand is associating himself with ghaur here.
> He is so stupid that by calling pritviraj chauhan coward and weak, he is actually reducing the wieght of shahbudin ghauri's final victory over chauhan. If ghauri got defeated in first war then it means chauhan was quite powerful.



Stop living in past dude,those days are long gone.with modern training everyone is almost at same level


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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

he-man said:


> Stop living in past dude,those days are long gone.with modern training everyone is almost at same level


I have interest in history, its not living in the past.

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## he-man

Pak-one said:


> I have interest in history, its not living in the past.



Everything is fair in love and war yaar.shit happened then,who knows whats the reality?

kihnu matlab hun?
Waise hi pure races are obsolete now,sab mixed haige aj kal


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## INDIC

bronxbull said:


> ghilzai,
> 
> u have zero auqaat to say that pathan conquered this and thus we?
> 
> those are individual conquests,unko apnana hain toh kam se kam army mein toh shamil ho jaa?
> 
> yahaan baitke zabaan chalaane,kuch nahi hoga.



@ghilzai seems very confused, he intensely hate those Pashtun conquerors because they intermarried with non-Pashtuns and at the same time he think he have more claim on them than the actual descendants of those conquerors.

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## notsuperstitious

KingMamba said:


> I have read a lot about Shivaji and he was no doubt one of the finest rulers of South Asia but his rebellion had little to do with religion like Indians are trying to make it out as and the Muslim invasions had likewise little to do with religion.


 
Please, we do not say his rebellion had anythng to do with religion, infact one of the most celebrated traits of Shivaji was his religious tolerance. And opposing Aurangzeb's religious intolerance does not make the opponents mirror image of Aurangzeb. When Marathas took over land from Aurangzeb's control, they did not implement reverse jaziya or destroyed mosques.

Certainly Shiv Sena (a regional party representing Maharashtrains) has used him (not any Hindutva group) as an inspirational figure. But he's not promoted as some kind of Hindutva posterboy as you are making it ut to be. Of course given his legendary status, all parties try to own him, this includes congress and NCP too.


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## dawn_news

Water Car Engineer said:


> What do you think reality was back then for most people? You think there was equality in other parts of ancient world? It's always a few elite who has the wealth and power. It's still like that to this day, but we have more room to breath.
> 
> 
> 
> None of that was passed down, except for a prototype of a religion and language. Now, I dont know why that would be a bad thing, considering your own religion, your text, your architecture, etc, etc, etc. isnt even from Pakistan. And is dominating from North Africa to Central Asia, but is Arabic in origin.
> 
> 
> 
> Not that impressive okay, funny considering Pakistan literally doesn't have anything for the last 2000 years except violation from their neighbors.
> 
> 
> 
> Art work like that is an example of a complex civilization, yes.



Ofcourse it was passed down to your kind. Adamenese island people couldn't even light a fire own their own till 20th century when British found them. Pakistan have dozens of these useless ancient temples. As i said use them as toilets so it may bring down % of people with toilets. Temples for few elites who build them to take advanatge of 95% of poors, especially girls isnt anything to be proud of. 

The most amazing temple was build at Multan named Sun temple, which was destroyed by invaders. Nothing was comparable to it in whole South Asia. Again nothing to be proud of either. 

In other parts of the world there was no caste system, its Indian exclusive.



sreekumar said:


> Shivaji was an Hindu.And I am also a Hindu.In India Shivaji was a freedom fighter.So all of us Indians claim him.He was the son of our Bharat Mata.
> 
> Your tricks to divide Marathis with others dont work here.



Marathis are already devided, they beat and hate bhiayas from North. If South Indians also got there they will hate them as well. South Indian claiming Shivaji is just hilarious.

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## Jf Thunder

punit said:


> Jaise ko taisa ! Brilliant work by Shivaji maharaj !


yup always attack from behind cowards, even your history says it, LOL never brave enough to face from the front

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## he-man

Jf Thunder said:


> yup always attack from behind cowards, even your history says it, LOL never brave enough to face from the front



Yup
The 93000 who surrendered in 1971 were aliens I guess

Certainly not the brave pakistanis


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## dawn_news

sreekumar said:


> You boast about foreign invaders accomplishment against your land and claim they made you civilized.But we Indians like our culture and believe our culture is more civilized than your foreign masters and we are descendants of an advanced vedic culture.
> Friend that is the difference between us.



You are south indian, stick to your history. Don't claim to be from pure land. This is all you can do, claim others peoples first Shivaji and now Vedic people.

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## SrNair

Nuri Natt said:


> Ofcourse it was passed down to your kind. Adamenese island people couldn't even light a fire own their own till 20th century when British found them. Pakistan have dozens of these useless ancient temples. As i said use them as toilets so it may bring down % of people with toilets. Temples for few elites who build them to take advanatge of 95% of poors, especially girls isnt anything to be proud of.
> 
> The most amazing temple was build at Multan named Sun temple, which was destroyed by invaders. Nothing was comparable to it in whole South Asia. Again nothing to be proud of either.
> 
> In other parts of the world there was no caste system, its Indian exclusive.
> 
> 
> 
> Marathis are already devided, they beat and hate bhiayas from North. If South Indians also got there they will hate them as well. South Indian claiming Shivaji is just hilarious.



You are wrong.May in your Pakistan things will like Pak punjabi ,Pashtuni,Sindhi,Balochi etc etc.
But in India even if some small scream all are considered as Indians.Shivaji is my role model .Lot of my friends in South India
got Shivaji as their role model.He was a proud Indian and son of soil.We dont care how you guys feel about it.


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## dawn_news

Pak-one said:


> Militarily defeated and destroyed. I didnt say afghans committed massacre of general ghakkar population.
> Bareilwi sahab its you who speak in legends. Muslims spilled the blood of muslims for most of the time in subcontinent. Both mughals and afghans were hanafi muslims yet they spilled the blood of each other for two centuries.
> If @Nuri Natt is to be believed, then ghakkars sided with ranjeet singh against their historical enemies pashtuns. Stop living in naseem hijazi fantasy



Didn't some pashtun tribes side with Mughals? Its normal, people see and side with who they see fit.



sreekumar said:


> You are wrong.May in your Pakistan things will like Pak punjabi ,Pashtuni,Sindhi,Balochi etc etc.
> But in India even if some small scream all are considered as Indians.Shivaji is my role model .Lot of my friends in South India
> got Shivaji as their role model.He was a proud Indian and son of soil.We dont care how you guys feel about it.



I don't doubt you, but Shivaji supporters will beat you a** up if you ever claimed him in Maharashtra.


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## SrNair

Nuri Natt said:


> You are south indian, stick to your history. Don't claim to be from pure land. This is all you can do, claim others peoples first Shivaji and now Vedic people.



I am a South Indian means I am an Indian.In India one way or another Hindus worshiped same gods in different names.That is from Kashmir to Kanyakumari. .We claim Shivaji and also Vedic people .who are you to questioned us about that?

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## Jf Thunder

he-man said:


> Yup
> The 93000 who surrendered in 1971 were aliens I guess
> 
> Certainly not the brave pakistanis


40 000, and what has surredndering got to do with attacking from behind? atleast the general didnt fire the pistol while he was sighning the surrender? or you would be crying now


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## dawn_news

sreekumar said:


> I am a South Indian means I am an Indian.In India one way or another Hindus worshiped same gods in different names.That is from Kashmir to Kanyakumari. .We claim Shivaji and also Vedic people .who are you to questioned us about that?



Its ironic and hilarious because when muslims do the same you guys are quick to remind them of their origins. I am also reminding your origin, the only thing Shivaji and you have in common is religion Hinduism.

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## SrNair

Nuri Natt said:


> Didn't some pashtun tribes side with Mughals? Its normal, people see and side with who they see fit.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't doubt you, but Shivaji supporters will beat you a** up if you ever claimed him in Maharashtra.



I have lots of marathi friends .We worship same Gods.You are a just a Pakistani who resorted in Pakistan and only know India through internet.
And wife of one of my neighbours is from Maharashtra ,a pure Marathi.He has above 50 years old and a former soldier.Now that Aunty know malayalam fluently



Nuri Natt said:


> Its ironic and hilarious because when muslims do the same you guys are quick to remind them of their origins. I am also reminding your origin, the only thing Shivaji and you have in common is religion Hinduism.


So what ? I am an Indian and he was also an Indian .Shivaji is the great son of our soil who fight against invaders.In India we all are one .It is unity in diversity


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## dawn_news

sreekumar said:


> I have lots of marathi friends .We worship same Gods.You are a just a Pakistani who resorted in Pakistan and only know India through internet.
> And wife of one of my neighbours is from Maharashtra ,a pure Marathi.He has above 50 years old and a former soldier.Now that Aunty know malayalam fluently



North Indian bhiayas were not so lucky in 2009 when marathis beat them and expulsed from Maharastra.


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## INDIC

sreekumar said:


> I am a South Indian means I am an Indian.In India one way or another Hindus worshiped same gods in different names.That is from Kashmir to Kanyakumari. .We claim Shivaji and also Vedic people .who are you to questioned us about that?



you to understand their mentality, even we speak different languages, we consider ourselves belonging to a historical Indian race thus claim everything that belonged to Indian race but same is not true with Pakistanis, they don't see themselves belonging to a historical race since they have to deny the historical Indian identity of Punjabi-Sindhis and thus their ethnic division is very strong and showing regional aspiration is seen as danger to Pakistani identity.

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## SrNair

Nuri Natt said:


> North Indian bhiayas were not so lucky in 2009 when marathis beat them and expulsed from Maharastra.



When someone did wrong in somewhere that people will be beated by locals it will happen everywhere in the world.It will also happens in kerala or TN.If you did some wrong in our state we will also punish you .But it will end there .Tommorrow when a guy from Maharashtra did same in Bihar same will happens .So what ?
It may happen in vast diversified culture but we dont care about that.If you count on that for some thing you may indeed a dumb


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## dawn_news

Pak-one said:


> Ghilzai is confused person with identity crisis. He said that he spits on afghans and dont want to associate with afghanistan. On the other hand is associating himself with ghaur here.
> He is so stupid that by calling pritviraj chauhan coward and weak, he is actually reducing the wieght of shahbudin ghauri's final victory over chauhan. If ghauri got defeated in first war then it means chauhan was quite powerful.



You mean Tajik have more claim over then @ghilzai? You keep saying Pakistan didn't exist and guess what Afghanistan also didn't exist back then. Khorasan? And according to you pashtun origin being Balochistan, which mean Afghanistan is basically conquered territory by pashtuns?


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## SrNair

INDIC said:


> you to understand their mentality, even we speak different languages, we consider ourselves belonging to a historical Indian race thus claim everything that belonged to Indian race but same is not true with Pakistanis, they don't see themselves belonging to a historical race since they have to deny the historical Indian identity of Punjabi-Sindhis and thus their ethnic division is very strong and showing regional aspiration is seen as danger to Pakistani identity.



Too right mate.Pakistan creation is based on that hatred .Guys like this "Nuri Nutt" always gave one step high to ethnicity and race than their nationality .He boast about the culture of ancient invading barbarians .Pathetic
He simply cant understand how we Indians always proud about our own culture.I am proud about my culture that has a history of more than 5000 years old.

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## dawn_news

sreekumar said:


> Too right mate.Pakistan creation is based on that hatred .Guys like this "Nuri Nutt" always gave one step high to ethnicity and race than their nationality .He boast about the culture of ancient invading barbarians .Pathetic
> He simply cant understand how we Indians always proud about our own culture.I am proud about my culture that has a history of more than 5000 years old.



lol 5000 history is only people from pure land can claim that. You are again claiming other people, when will you guys be proud of your roots? At least that turd is posting pictures of South Indian temples to prove how advance they were, i like that.

Also while riots between different ethnic groups in India is quite normal and every day thing. Have you ever heard anything like that in Pakistan? One will have to back couple of decades to see Muhajir vs pathan riots in Karachi. Even these riots were in small scall compared to ones we see in India.

Marathis literarly expulsed every Bhaiya from Maharashtra in 2009. Its expected, unlike Pakistan where every province border other and inbetween there is Indus river which bound us. In India there is no such a thing, hatered between different ethnics is quite normal.

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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

Nuri Natt said:


> You mean Tajik have more claim over then @ghilzai? You keep saying Pakistan didn't exist and guess what Afghanistan also didn't exist back then. Khorasan? And according to you pashtun origin being Balochistan, which mean Afghanistan is basically conquered territory by pashtuns?


Untill 1878, koh sulieman region was part of Afghanistan and it was part of khorasan. So expanding from one part of khorasan to another, is not conquering another country. Moreover the expansion took place very long time ago. Ghuristan was the abode of suris, and the first pashto poet amir kror suri was in 7th century. Ghaur/ghauristan is in central afghanistan. Ancestor of shahabudin ghauri, mohammad ibn suri also belonged to ghuristan. Too bad this population of pashtuns was completely destroyed by mongols. My point is that dont assume that there were no pashtuns in southren, central and eastren afghanistan before islam. At the time of alexander, pashtuns or proto pashtuns were living in the region stretching between koh sulieman and kandahar and had already expanded to eastren afghanistan.
Afghanistan came into being in 1708 and as a state it was founded in 1747 so it is 250 years older than pakistan. As khorasan, its history is very ancient.


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## ghilzai

Nuri Natt said:


> You mean Tajik have more claim over then @ghilzai? You keep saying Pakistan didn't exist and guess what Afghanistan also didn't exist back then. Khorasan? And according to you pashtun origin being Balochistan, which mean Afghanistan is basically conquered territory by pashtuns?



People like @Pak-one ride on the success of my people, they don't have much to show for themselves.

No doubt he is one of us but he is not a ghilzai and doesn't know the meaning of the word loyalty to his Watan.

He can be thankful that he has always been free thanks to the ghilzais the swordsmen.

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## dawn_news

Pak-one said:


> Ghakkars of potohar were enemies of Afghans. They supported babur and then hamayun against Afghans. Sher shah suri built rohtas fort to keep eye on them, his son islam shah crushed them mercilessly. They were in good shape during mughal times , on behalf of mughals they fought many wars with turbulent afghans on other side of indus. They tried to put up resistance against afghans of abdali but were crushed and destroyed , relieving pressure from niazi pashtuns who were enemies of ghakkars. They sided with ranjeet singh against their historical enemy pashtuns/afghans.
> Kayanis are ghakkars, they are in very large number in pak army.
> @Nuri Natt @Multani



Pakistani Punjabi Janjuas and ghakkars also has been enemies of each other. I don't know why you are using historical enmity to prove your point? Did you forget that some pashtuns tribes supported Mughals?


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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

ghilzai said:


> People like @Pak-one ride on the success of my people, they don't have much to show for themselves.
> 
> No doubt he is one of us but he is not a ghilzai and doesn't know the meaning of the word loyalty to his Watan.
> 
> He can be thankful that he has always been free thanks to the ghilzais the swordsmen.


According to history of pashtuns, in the love story of shah hussain and bibi mato, ghiljay was born out of wedlock. Their second son, who was born after marraige, was named loy-da, the great one i.e lodhi. We lodhis have always looked down upon ghiljays 



Nuri Natt said:


> Pakistani Punjabi Janjuas and ghakkars also has been enemies of each other. I don't know why you are using historical enmity to prove your point? Did you forget that some pashtuns tribes supported Mughals?


I gave further explaination to @INDIC's post in which he mentioned that ghauri got assassinated by ghakkars.


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## dawn_news

Pak-one said:


> I gave further explaination to @INDIC's post in which he mentioned that ghauri got assassinated by ghakkars.



Oh ok.

Anyway its not even proven who killed him, some say ghakkars others khokars.


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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

Nuri Natt said:


> Oh ok.
> 
> Anyway its not even proven who killed him, some say ghakkars others khokars.


I have also read some where that khokars killed him.
Ghakkar's uprising was crushed by ghauri but it is also a fact that they converted to islam due to ghauri so i dont understand why they would want to assassinate him. It must be khokars who are hindus at that time.


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## dawn_news

Pak-one said:


> I have also read some where that khokars killed him.
> Ghakkar's uprising was crushed by ghauri but it is also a fact that they converted to islam due to ghauri so i dont understand why they would want to assassinate him. It must be khokars who are hindus at that time.



Not every punjabi become muslim over night, it was gradual process. Which continued till 1947. Hindu population kept declining, first by Islam and later Sikhsm.


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## Water Car Engineer

Nuri Natt said:


> Ofcourse it was passed down to your kind. Adamenese island people couldn't even light a fire own their own till 20th century when British found them. Pakistan have dozens of these useless ancient temples. As i said use them as toilets so it may bring down % of people with toilets. Temples for few elites who build them to take advanatge of 95% of poors, especially girls isnt anything to be proud of.
> 
> The most amazing temple was build at Multan named Sun temple, which was destroyed by invaders. Nothing was comparable to it in whole South Asia. Again nothing to be proud of either.
> 
> In other parts of the world there was no caste system, its Indian exclusive.




The people who created the Mauryans, Guptas, etc, etc. or those arts arent Adamenese island people. That makes no sense what so ever. Here you go again with your inferior complex having racism.

Pakistan doesnt have anything in the last 2000 years. Because you were constantly subjugated and ruined by your neighbors. Whether it be the Huns, Persians, Parthians, Kushans, Afghans, Turks, etc, etc, etc. they all had their way with your "pure" land.  The best temples and Indic architecture are in S. India, Central India, Deccan and in S.E. Asia.

Most structures around the world back then were built for few elites and by the powerful. That's reality back then.

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## INDIC

Pak-one said:


> According to history of pashtuns, in the love story of shah hussain and bibi mato, ghiljay was born out of wedlock. Their second son, who was born after marraige, was named loy-da, the great one i.e lodhi. We lodhis have always looked down upon ghiljays .



Is this folklore of Shah Hussain and Bibi Mato real. I once talked to an Afghan guy, he was denying any sort of Turkish ancestry among Afghans perhaps based on genetic test.


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## Srinivas

Water Car Engineer said:


> The people who created the Mauryans, Guptas, etc, etc. or those arts arent Adamenese island people. That makes no sense what so ever. Here you go again with your inferior complex having racism.
> 
> Pakistan doesnt have anything in the last 2000 years. Because you were constantly subjugated and ruined by your neighbors. Whether it be the Huns, Persians, Parthians, Kushans, Afghans, Turks, etc, etc, etc. they all had their way with your "pure" land.  The best temples and Indic architecture is in S. India, Central India, Deccan and in S.E. Asia.
> 
> Most structures around the world back then were built for few elites and by the power. That's reality back then.



He believes in Aryan invasion fantasy and racial purity .... etc...etc....

For him every Indian especially south Indians are aboriginals .... 

He won't present references or citations either !

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## KingMamba

notsuperstitious said:


> Please, we do not say his rebellion had anythng to do with religion, infact one of the most celebrated traits of Shivaji was his religious tolerance. And opposing Aurangzeb's religious intolerance does not make the opponents mirror image of Aurangzeb. When Marathas took over land from Aurangzeb's control, they did not implement reverse jaziya or destroyed mosques.
> 
> Certainly Shiv Sena (a regional party representing Maharashtrains) has used him (not any Hindutva group) as an inspirational figure. But he's not promoted as some kind of Hindutva posterboy as you are making it ut to be. Of course given his legendary status, all parties try to own him, this includes congress and NCP too.



I am talking about hindutvas on this forum he call his a Hindu rebellion LOL.


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## INDIC

Water Car Engineer said:


> The people who created the Mauryans, Guptas, etc, etc. or those arts arent Adamenese island people. That makes no sense what so ever. Here you go again with your inferior complex having racism.
> 
> Pakistan doesnt have anything in the last 2000 years. Because you were constantly subjugated and ruined by your neighbors. Whether it be the Huns, Persians, Parthians, Kushans, Afghans, Turks, etc, etc, etc. they all had their way with your "pure" land.  The best temples and Indic architecture is in S. India, Central India, Deccan and in S.E. Asia.
> 
> Most structures around the world back then were built for few elites and by the power. That's reality back then.



They loved to be ruled by the foreign invaders. Chanakya helped in liberation of their land from the Greeks that made him the national villain of Pakistan because he deprived them of foreign rule.

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## dawn_news

Water Car Engineer said:


> The people who created the Mauryans, Guptas, etc, etc. or those arts arent Adamenese island people. That makes no sense what so ever. Here you go again with your inferior complex having racism.
> 
> Pakistan doesnt have anything in the last 2000 years. Because you were constantly subjugated and ruined by your neighbors. Whether it be the Huns, Persians, Parthians, Kushans, Afghans, Turks, etc, etc, etc. they all had their way with your "pure" land.  The best temples and Indic architecture are in S. India, Central India, Deccan and in S.E. Asia.
> 
> Most structures around the world back then were built for few elites and by the powerful. That's reality back then.



Again as i said dozens of useless ancient temples are in Pakistan. And complex talk doesnt suite Indians who have invested PDF, troll Pakistanis while IDF is empty and in brink being shut down. The best temples were in Pakistan, like Sun temple multan. It was destoyed, South Indians temples are merely poor atempt at copy.

Shiv linga in Katas Temple is more impressive then anything you have shown. Also our ancestors at least didnt build status of men having sex with pigs. Even being hindus we were pure. All you can come up is combined history of Bharat which is still less impressive then Pakistan. Your whole civilization own his existance to people of indus valley.



Srinivas said:


> He believes in Aryan invasion fantasy and racial purity .... etc...etc....
> 
> For him every Indian especially south Indians are aboriginals ....
> 
> He won't present references or citations either !



So you believe that Indians were aryans who spread indo-european languages. But im living in fantasy right? I wonder why rest of the world keep teaching wrong history about Indo-European ancestors, they should learn their history from hindutvas. What happened last time when american-Indians tried to change USA history book?

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## Srinivas

Nuri Natt said:


> So you believe that Indians were aryans who spread indo-european languages. But im living in fantasy right? I wonder why rest of the world keep teaching wrong history about Indo-European ancestors, they should learn their history from hindutvas. What happened last time when american-Indians tried to change USA history book?



Aryan word is a contradictory and there is no correct definition to it.

1) There is a place called Aria near to eastern Iran and close to Afghnaistan.

2) In Vedas the word is referred as a noble, there is a prayer in Vedas which says "O Lord ! convert all non Aryans to Aryans".

Indo - Eurpoeans .... 

The concept itself is a wrong one, there is no connection between Europeans and India.... This absurd theory is proposed to confuse Indians and weaken Indian Identity.

This is a Land of where Dharmic religions like Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism and Sikhism are originated and What do these barbarians from Europe has to do with Rich cultural and civilization like India??

In daily usage of many of us use english words as nouns, verbs and adjectives that do not mean Telugu/ Urdu is originated from English. Indo - European Language classification itself is wrong .

These Indologists from British empire worked based on false propaganda designed by the Europeans to deny Indians their History, culture and civilizations even after 200 years their plans failed. Since truth trumps the false theories.

These Indologists only proposed Aryan Invasion *theory with out any proofs ..... so this is nothing but hypothesis with out any basis or facts. A simple imagination nothing more ....*

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## Water Car Engineer

Nuri Natt said:


> Again as i said dozens of useless ancient temples are in Pakistan. And complex talk doesnt suite Indians who have invested PDF, troll Pakistanis while IDF is empty and in brink being shut down. The best temples were in Pakistan, like Sun temple multan. It was destoyed, South Indians temples are merely poor atempt at copy.
> 
> Shiv linga in Katas Temple is more impressive then anything you have shown. Also our ancestors at least didnt build status of men having sex with pigs. Even being hindus we were pure. All you can come up is combine history of Bharat which is still less impressive then Pakistan. Your whole civilization own his existance to people of indus valley.




See, you dont have a clue of what you're talking about. South Indian temples arent a "copy" because that's their own architecture. That's an offshoot of styles developed in Central India. But they're far better than anything in Pakisan or North India.

Show me your Sun temple. You guys have nothing. For example, these temples are made up of thousands of sculptures, friezes, and other architectural patterns. Which you wont find in the ground there.




> Shiv linga in Katas Temple









This thing? Really?


This architecture was also developed within India, just with a touch of Greek styles, because Gandhara was influence by Greeks.

You're a complete novice in this, and repeat garbage these white racists, which you probably have an inferior complex towards say.





















Even gate ways to Chola temples are better than that.

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## dawn_news

Srinivas said:


> Aryan word is a contradictory and there is no correct definition to it.
> 
> 1) There is a place called Arian near to eastern Iran and close ot Afghnaistan.
> 
> 2) In Vedas the word is referred as a noble, there is a prayer in Vedas which says "O Lord ! convert all non Aryans to Aryans".
> 
> Indo - Eurpoeans ....
> 
> The concept itself is a wrong one, there is no connection between Europeans and India.... This absurd theory is proposed to confuse Indians and weaken Indian Identity.
> 
> This is a Land of where Dharmic religions like Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism and Sikhism are originated and What do these barbarians from Europe has to do with Rich cultural and civilization like India??
> 
> In daily usage of many of us use english words as nouns, verbs and adjectives that do not mean Telugu/ Urdu is originated from English. Indo - European Language classification itself is wrong .
> 
> These Indologists from British empire worked based on false propaganda designed by the Europeans to deny Indians their History, culture and civilizations even after 200 years their plans failed. Since truth trumps the false theories.



It does not matter what it means. When i say aryan i mean original Indo-European speakers who came from outside South Asia! Because OIT is nonsense and no one take it seriously. And no there is nothing in between. Either they came from outside south asia or we believe in hindutva OIT.



Water Car Engineer said:


> See, you dont have a clue of what you're talking about. South Indian temples arent a "copy" because that's their own architecture. That's an offshoot of styles developed in Central India. But they're far better than anything in what's Pakisan or North India.
> 
> Show me your Sun temple. You guys have nothing. For example, these temples are made up of thousands of sculptures, friezes, and other architectural patterns. Which you wont find in the ground there.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This thing? Really?
> 
> 
> This architecture was also developed within India, just with a touch of Greek influence styles, because Gandhara was influence by Greeks.
> 
> You're a complete novice in this, and repeat garbage these white racists, which you probably have an inferior complex towards say.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Even gate ways to Chola temples are better than that.



First of all its your own inferiorty complex coming out, when i believed in white racist theory? North Europeans has been utter failure a part from last 300 years, but now they are way ahead. And south asians are miserable. Now don't come with bs that not believing in OIT mean being white racists.

Again Gandhara influence which is Pakistani civilization. Cholas who proudly claimied ancestry from Rig Vedic tribe. As i said in Pakistan more impressive temples were destroyed. South India was left alone so they could develop these temples. Also can you post wiki links of these temples so i can learn more about them?


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## Srinivas

Nuri Natt said:


> It does not matter what it means. When i say aryan i mean original Indo-European speakers who came from outside South Asia! Because OIT is nonsense and no one take it seriously. And no there is nothing in between. Either they came from outside south asia or we believe in hindutva OIT.



Sanskrit and Avesta have some similarities but no one knows from where the original Language before sanskrit and avetha came from. May be some words are shared between Indians and Iranians. That do not mean they have common Language from which these two languages originated from.

Since no other asian people speak sanskrit or use similar language, it is safe to say Sanskrit is originated or developed in Indian sub continent.

Most of the works done in sanskrit are native to Sub continent. There are no literature or sanskrit works in Ukraine, central asia or Iran. This itself proves that Sanskrit is native to Sub continent.

Rig Veda's origins are a mystery , Rig veda is a composition of number of slokas with many authors and sources. The time line of composition is believed to be a big one so we cannot say Rig Veda is composed in one particular region , time period , It is a composition of knowledge which is from various sources from more than one generation.

The recent discovery of IVC sites in India and the some discoveries are indeed pointing to the fact that there existed a mighty river which is fed by Monsoons originated in Himalayas and now extinct because of seasonal changes and tectonic plate shifting. Most of them claim this river is indeed the river Saraswathi mentioned in Rig veda.

*It is the structure of language that should be basis for classification not the number of common words.

Cultural and Civilization identity is different from religion !!*

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## Water Car Engineer

Nuri Natt said:


> It does not matter what it means. When i say aryan i mean original Indo-European speakers who came from outside South Asia! Because OIT is nonsense and no one take it seriously. And no there is nothing in between. Either they came from outside south asia or we believe in hindutva OIT.
> 
> 
> 
> First of all its your own inferiorty complex coming out, when i believed in white racist theory? North Europeans has been utter failure a part from last 300 years, but now they are way ahead. And south asians are miserable. Now don't come with bs that not believing in OIT mean being white racists.
> 
> Again Gandhara influence which is Pakistani civilization. Cholas who proudly claimied ancestry from Rig Vedic tribe. As i said in Pakistan more impressive temples were destroyed. South India was left alone so they could develop these temples. Also can you post wiki links of these temples so i can learn more about them?




If they were destroyed, please, where is the excavations of all the grand temples that were destroyed in Pakistan? You'll find pieces of Chola temples all over the place if one was torn down. Sculptures, friezes, relief images, false columns, etc, etc? You have nothing, guess why? Because you guys couldnt defend your own lands from uncivilized nomabs.



> Again Gandhara influence which is Pakistani civilization. Cholas who proudly claimied ancestry from Rig Vedic tribe. As i said in Pakistan more impressive temples were destroyed. South India was left alone so they could develop these temples. Also can you post wiki links of these temples so i can learn more about them?




Yes, Gandhara influence, because Katas Temple is near there.

But guess what? That style of Hindu architecture originated from the Gupta empire in the east, and exploded all over the subcontinent. All corners making their own unique styles, including Gandhara, Kashmiri style. Before that was Buddhist Stupa architecture - which was also spread by another eastern empire, Mauryas.

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## waz

himalayah said:


> They sided with ranjeet singh against their historical enemy pashtuns/afghans.
> Kayanis are ghakkars, they are in very large number in pak army.
> @Nuri Natt @Multani



The Ghakkars fought Ranjit Singh's forces. Do you have a link to show they sided with him?

The people of Azad Kashmir sided with the Pakhtuns.

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## INDIC

Srinivas said:


> Sanskrit and Avesta have some similarities but no one knows from where the original Language before sanskrit and avetha came from. May be some words are shared between Indians and Iranians. That do not mean they have common Language from which these two languages originated from.
> 
> Since no other asian people speak sanskrit or use similar language, it is safe to say Sanskrit is originated or developed in Indian sub continent.
> 
> Most of the works done in sanskrit are native to Sub continent. There are no literature or sanskrit works in Ukraine, central asia or Iran. This itself proves that Sanskrit is native to Sub continent.
> 
> Rig Veda's origins are a mystery , Rig veda is a composition of number of slokas with many authors and sources. The time line of composition is believed to be a big one so we cannot say Rig Veda is composed in one particular region , time period , It is a composition of knowledge which is from various sources from more than one generation.
> 
> The recent discovery of IVC sites in India and the some discoveries are indeed pointing to the fact that there existed a mighty river which is fed by Monsoons originated in Himalayas and now extinct because of seasonal changes and tectonic plate shifting. Most of them claim this river is indeed the river Saraswathi mentioned in Rig veda.
> 
> *It is the structure of language that should be basis for classification not the number of common words.
> 
> Cultural and Civilization identity is different from religion !!*



Europeans were more desperate to connect themselves with Indian so that they could fake themselves as Aryans thus prove white race's superiority based on the advanced Vedic culture and also faked Dravidian as a race which is actually a geographical expression so that British could divide North and South Indians.

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## Jaggu

Nuri Natt said:


> In 2009 they beat North Indian bhiayas, Biharis and UP. Yes we think north india mean punjab and kashmir but they include bihar and up as well. But Sikhs were also beaten in 2008 by Shivaji supporters.



I have been to Maharashtra, from my experience the Marathas generally respect Sikhs. The Sikh pilgrims contribute a lot towards the tourist industry in Maharasthra because of the historic Gurdwaras in the city of Nanded. The racist anti North Indian clashes that occurred were generally against UP/Bihari migrants. Although we only see Punjab/Himachal/Haryana/Delhi/J&K as north Indians, but for some reason poorbia states of UP/Bihar are included as North India.

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## notsuperstitious

Jaggu said:


> I have been to Maharashtra, from my experience the Marathas generally respect Sikhs. The Sikh pilgrims contribute a lot towards the tourist industry in Maharasthra because of the historic Gurdwaras in the city of Nanded. The racist anti North Indian clashes that occurred were generally against UP/Bihari migrants. Although we only see Punjab/Himachal/Haryana/Delhi/J&K as north Indians, but for some reason poorbia states of UP/Bihar are included as North India.



The whole maharashtrians opposing Sikhs is just that desperate fool Shan's mental masturbation to create enmity between Indian groups. He's just a retard who keeps stuff out of his nether end. Don't take him seriously.


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## punit

Jf Thunder said:


> yup always attack from behind cowards, even your history says it, LOL never brave enough to face from the front



yeah! guerrilla warfare . ever heard about it!


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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

INDIC said:


> Is this folklore of Shah Hussain and Bibi Mato real. I once talked to an Afghan guy, he was denying any sort of Turkish ancestry among Afghans perhaps based on genetic test.


Dont know how much true is it. But if you tell any pashtun that he is not a real one but turk, he wont accept it and would try to convince you on his pashtun-ness. Ghiljays themeselves refuse turkic or other theories, they are very proud pashtuns. These folklore might be propagated by their rivals lodhis who were rulers of india and wrote pashto books.

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## SrNair

Nuri Natt said:


> lol 5000 history is only people from pure land can claim that. You are again claiming other people, when will you guys be proud of your roots? At least that turd is posting pictures of South Indian temples to prove how advance they were, i like that.
> 
> Also while riots between different ethnic groups in India is quite normal and every day thing. Have you ever heard anything like that in Pakistan? One will have to back couple of decades to see Muhajir vs pathan riots in Karachi. Even these riots were in small scall compared to ones we see in India.
> 
> Marathis literarly expulsed every Bhaiya from Maharashtra in 2009.* Its expected, unlike Pakistan where every province border other and inbetween there is Indus river which bound us. In India there is no such a thing, hatered between different ethnics is quite normal.*



And that is none of your business.We will decide about our history and culture. In one way or another all of India is connected by culture.You can see some some south Indian way in North India similarly North Indian way in South India.So lot of diversity created means unity in diversity .So We are proud about our roots .That roots is flourished all over India .You cant digest that huh.Our culture is our own and indigenous .We will not boast about some foreigners invading barbarian culture and their names like you did.pathetic.
Wow , 5000 history of pure land .Pure of what ?
hatred between what?
Actually Mr.where are you coming from?
Oh we know very well about that "bound" .Yesterday Balochi terrorists claimed they killed 20 people in Islamabad

May 2010 attacks on Ahmadi mosques in Lahore - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Another wave of sectarian killings hit Karachi, 3 shia and 3 deubandis dead.

So much for bound



Srinivas said:


> Sanskrit and Avesta have some similarities but no one knows from where the original Language before sanskrit and avetha came from. May be some words are shared between Indians and Iranians. That do not mean they have common Language from which these two languages originated from.
> 
> Since no other asian people speak sanskrit or use similar language, it is safe to say Sanskrit is originated or developed in Indian sub continent.
> 
> Most of the works done in sanskrit are native to Sub continent. There are no literature or sanskrit works in Ukraine, central asia or Iran. This itself proves that Sanskrit is native to Sub continent.
> 
> Rig Veda's origins are a mystery , Rig veda is a composition of number of slokas with many authors and sources. The time line of composition is believed to be a big one so we cannot say Rig Veda is composed in one particular region , time period , It is a composition of knowledge which is from various sources from more than one generation.
> 
> The recent discovery of IVC sites in India and the some discoveries are indeed pointing to the fact that there existed a mighty river which is fed by Monsoons originated in Himalayas and now extinct because of seasonal changes and tectonic plate shifting. Most of them claim this river is indeed the river Saraswathi mentioned in Rig veda.
> 
> *It is the structure of language that should be basis for classification not the number of common words.
> 
> Cultural and Civilization identity is different from religion !!*



All of Indian languages except some are heavily influenced by Sanskrit.Malayalam creates by the mixing of Sanskrit and Tamil.And all others like that.Sanskrit is our language.


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## SrNair

Nuri Natt said:


> It does not matter what it means. When i say aryan i mean original Indo-European speakers who came from outside South Asia! Because OIT is nonsense and no one take it seriously. And no there is nothing in between. Either they came from outside south asia or we believe in hindutva OIT.
> 
> 
> 
> First of all its your own inferiorty complex coming out, when i believed in white racist theory? North Europeans has been utter failure a part from last 300 years, but now they are way ahead. And south asians are miserable. Now don't come with bs that not believing in OIT mean being white racists.
> 
> Again Gandhara influence which is Pakistani civilization. Cholas who proudly claimied ancestry from Rig Vedic tribe. As i said in Pakistan more impressive temples were destroyed. South India was left alone so they could develop these temples. Also can you post wiki links of these temples so i can learn more about them?



We dont claim about OIT.But when Britishers experienced the advancement of Indian civilization during their invasion.They become envy about India and want the credit of Indian civilization.Because then only they claim that White are superiror than Indians and also justification of looting of India.AIT is the manifestation of that effort of Britian and their rulers.
So we gave little importance to that BS.


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## bronxbull

Pak-one said:


> Ghilzai is confused person with identity crisis. He said that he spits on afghans and dont want to associate with afghanistan. On the other hand is associating himself with ghaur here.
> He is so stupid that by calling pritviraj chauhan coward and weak, he is actually reducing the wieght of shahbudin ghauri's final victory over chauhan. If ghauri got defeated in first war then it means chauhan was quite powerful.



I see it as a fight of equals and that was a very important huge victory,i dont want to take sides and say that ohh he lost,his words seems like he was a teenage fan of some cricket/football team instead of realizing the nature of real conflicts.

It saddens me that our maharaja prithviraj chauhan lost the battle but i should have maturity to see it as a real conflict rather than my team winning or losing.

regardless,i dont want to talk more.

I wish there were more people with righteous pride like you.



ghilzai said:


> What achievements what history what civilisation?.
> 
> Indus etc is not yours it belongs to people who live in it who have brought it.
> 
> Another Dravidian trying to claim This as his ha ha ha ha



ghilzai,

u have zero auqaat to say that pathan conquered this and thus we?

those are individual conquests,unko apnana hain toh kam se kam army mein toh shamil ho jaa?

yahaan baitke zabaan chalaane,


he-man said:


> Stop living in past dude,those days are long gone.with modern training everyone is almost at same level



with all due respect,feeling motivated from your tribal identity is nothing wrong,training can be modern but the will to indulge yourself in the tough training programs come from inner motivation and that comes from your religious/ethnic/nationalistic/tribal identities alone.


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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

waz said:


> The Ghakkars fought Ranjit Singh's forces. Do you have a link to show they sided with him?
> 
> The people of Azad Kashmir sided with the Pakhtuns.


Kashmiri muslims stayed neutral while kashmiri hindus invited ranjeet singh to conquer kashmir from Afghans. 
In 1947 kashmiri muslims and pashtun tribesmen fought side by side but india spread the propagand that tribesmen are looting, killing and raping kashmiri muslims, justifying their intervention in kashmir.
Unfortunately many pakistanis like @syedali73,@Spring Onion believe this indian propaganda. This propaganda was spread by dogra raj and india to mask the atrocities dogra forces committed against indian muslims.


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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

bronxbull said:


> I see it as a fight of equals and that was a very important huge victory,i dont want to take sides and say that ohh he lost,his words seems like he was a teenage fan of some cricket/football team instead of realizing the nature of real conflicts.
> 
> It saddens me that our maharaja prithviraj chauhan lost the battle but i should have maturity to see it as a real conflict rather than my team winning or losing.
> 
> regardless,i dont want to talk more.
> 
> I wish there were more people with righteous pride like you.
> 
> 
> 
> ghilzai,
> 
> u have zero auqaat to say that pathan conquered this and thus we?
> 
> those are individual conquests,unko apnana hain toh kam se kam army mein toh shamil ho jaa?
> 
> yahaan baitke zabaan chalaane,
> 
> 
> with all due respect,feeling motivated from your tribal identity is nothing wrong,training can be modern but the will to indulge yourself in the tough training programs come from inner motivation and that comes from your religious/ethnic/nationalistic/tribal identities alone.





bronxbull said:


> I see it as a fight of equals and that was a very important huge victory,i dont want to take sides and say that ohh he lost,his words seems like he was a teenage fan of some cricket/football team instead of realizing the nature of real conflicts.
> 
> It saddens me that our maharaja prithviraj chauhan lost the battle but i should have maturity to see it as a real conflict rather than my team winning or losing.
> 
> regardless,i dont want to talk more.
> 
> I wish there were more people with righteous pride like you.
> 
> 
> 
> ghilzai,
> 
> u have zero auqaat to say that pathan conquered this and thus we?
> 
> those are individual conquests,unko apnana hain toh kam se kam army mein toh shamil ho jaa?
> 
> yahaan baitke zabaan chalaane,
> 
> 
> with all due respect,feeling motivated from your tribal identity is nothing wrong,training can be modern but the will to indulge yourself in the tough training programs come from inner motivation and that comes from your religious/ethnic/nationalistic/tribal identities alone.


No matter from which angle we look at it, rajputs defended their homeland from invasions, proud nations do that. 
History is very complex, chief of rohilla afghans zabita khan and his son ghulam qadir allied themeselves with sikhs against mughal-maratha. Nizam joined forces with marathas against mysore.


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## bronxbull

Pak-one said:


> No matter from which angle we look at it, rajputs defended their homeland from invasions, proud nations do that.
> History is very complex, chief of rohilla afghans zabita khan and his son ghulam qadir allied themeselves with sikhs against mughal-maratha. Nizam joined forces with marathas against mysore.



No no,it was different.

Rohilla Pathans supported Abdali(Naturally),Sikh Misls stayed neutral and let Abdali pass through till the Yamuna as they did not want Marathas ruling in Delhi,Rajputs also kept quiet and had a ego battle with the Marathas.

But yeah Nizam joined with the Marathas and later the British against Tipu Sultan.



Pak-one said:


> Kashmiri muslims stayed neutral while kashmiri hindus invited ranjeet singh to conquer kashmir from Afghans.
> In 1947 kashmiri muslims and pashtun tribesmen fought side by side but india spread the propagand that tribesmen are looting, killing and raping kashmiri muslims, justifying their intervention in kashmir.
> Unfortunately many pakistanis like @syedali73,@Spring Onion believe this indian propaganda. This propaganda was spread by dogra raj and india to mask the atrocities dogra forces committed against indian muslims.



They could have done that looting/pillaging/raping unless you are sure they did not,

Dogra slaughter of Muslims in Jammu was revenge against the same thing in Sialkot/Jhelum/KPK.

well,all this is just nauseating but yeah the wars were not purely religious.


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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

bronxbull said:


> No no,it was different.
> 
> Rohilla Pathans supported Abdali(Naturally),Sikh Misls stayed neutral and let Abdali pass through till the Yamuna as they did not want Marathas ruling in Delhi,Rajputs also kept quiet and had a ego battle with the Marathas.
> 
> But yeah Nizam joined with the Marathas and later the British against Tipu Sultan.
> 
> 
> 
> They could have done that looting/pillaging/raping unless you are sure they did not,
> 
> Dogra slaughter of Muslims in Jammu was revenge against the same thing in Sialkot/Jhelum/KPK.
> 
> well,all this is just nauseating but yeah the wars were not purely religious.


Rohillas of najib khan supported abdali. But in 1774 they were defeated by anglo-audh forces. His son zabita khan joined forces with sikhs. Son of zabita khan, ghulam qadir rohilla occupied delhi with sikhs and looted it. Marathas had to come rescue shah alam from crazy ghulam qadir.
My point is that we cant view history in black and white, mostly it is shaded grey. Marathas also had muslim soldiers when they fought afghans. After panipat war shuja ud daula turned against rohillas and destroyed them even though they fought togather in panipat.

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## waz

Pak-one said:


> Kashmiri muslims stayed neutral while kashmiri hindus invited ranjeet singh to conquer kashmir from Afghans.
> In 1947 kashmiri muslims and pashtun tribesmen fought side by side but india spread the propagand that tribesmen are looting, killing and raping kashmiri muslims, justifying their intervention in kashmir.
> Unfortunately many pakistanis like @syedali73,@Spring Onion believe this indian propaganda. This propaganda was spread by dogra raj and india to mask the atrocities dogra forces committed against indian muslims.



Kashmir's Muslims did not stay neutral, they fought the Sikh empire. I'm talking about the Pakistani side here. Taken from a thread I posted on a few weeks back.

Wіth the rise оf Sikh power іn Punjab, Maharaja Ranjit Singhestablished hіs supremacy аnd set hіs eyes оn the Chibh states оf Bhimber аnd Khari Khariyali. *Іn 1810, а force wаs sent against Raja Sultan Khan оf Bhimber аnd wаs met wіth fierce resistance. However, іn 1812 another Sikh army under prince Kharak Singh defeated Sultan Khan аnd the Bhimber state wаs annexed аs Jagir оf Kharak Singh. *Around the same time, Ranjit Singh acquired Gujrat аnd invaded Khari Khariyali ruled by Raja Umar Khan. Raja Umar Khan made peace wіth Ranjit Singh. But before а settlement cоuld be made, he died аnd the state аnd Mirpur became part оf Ranjit Singh's territories.

Mirpur


By the way the 1810 battle is remembered by many people from my region as the day we beat back a far larger and better equipped Sikh army. Sultan Khan Bhimberi is a hero and legend to us all.


Two things also, the Mirpuris make up a part of Azad Kashmir and much of the revolts and wars were led by the people of Kotli, Bhimber, Muzzaffrabad and tribes like the Sudhans.


Agree with the rest. Had there been killing of Kashmiris by our Pakhtun brothers, we would never have fought side by side.


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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

waz said:


> Kashmir's Muslims did not stay neutral, they fought the Sikh empire. I'm talking about the Pakistani side here. Taken from a thread I posted on a few weeks back.
> 
> Wіth the rise оf Sikh power іn Punjab, Maharaja Ranjit Singhestablished hіs supremacy аnd set hіs eyes оn the Chibh states оf Bhimber аnd Khari Khariyali. *Іn 1810, а force wаs sent against Raja Sultan Khan оf Bhimber аnd wаs met wіth fierce resistance. However, іn 1812 another Sikh army under prince Kharak Singh defeated Sultan Khan аnd the Bhimber state wаs annexed аs Jagir оf Kharak Singh. *Around the same time, Ranjit Singh acquired Gujrat аnd invaded Khari Khariyali ruled by Raja Umar Khan. Raja Umar Khan made peace wіth Ranjit Singh. But before а settlement cоuld be made, he died аnd the state аnd Mirpur became part оf Ranjit Singh's territories.
> 
> Mirpur
> 
> 
> By the way the 1810 battle is remembered by many people from my region as the day we beat back a far larger and better equipped Sikh army. Sultan Khan Bhimberi is a hero and legend to us all.
> 
> 
> Two things also, the Mirpuris make up a part of Azad Kashmir and much of the revolts and wars were led by the people of Kotli, Bhimber, Muzzaffrabad and tribes like the Sudhans.
> 
> 
> Agree with the rest. Had there been killing of Kashmiris by our Pakhtun brothers, we would never have fought side by side.


Sudhans are sadozais?


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## waz

Pak-one said:


> Sudhans are sadozais?



Yes.


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## dawn_news

Pak-one said:


> Kashmiri muslims stayed neutral while kashmiri hindus invited ranjeet singh to conquer kashmir from Afghans.
> In 1947 kashmiri muslims and pashtun tribesmen fought side by side but india spread the propagand that tribesmen are looting, killing and raping kashmiri muslims, justifying their intervention in kashmir.
> Unfortunately many pakistanis like @syedali73,@Spring Onion believe this indian propaganda. This propaganda was spread by dogra raj and india to mask the atrocities dogra forces committed against indian muslims.



These were not ethnic Kashmiris Waz is talking about, but Pakistani side Kashmir Azad Kashmir. Two different groups.



waz said:


> Kashmir's Muslims did not stay neutral, they fought the Sikh empire. I'm talking about the Pakistani side here. Taken from a thread I posted on a few weeks back.
> 
> Wіth the rise оf Sikh power іn Punjab, Maharaja Ranjit Singhestablished hіs supremacy аnd set hіs eyes оn the Chibh states оf Bhimber аnd Khari Khariyali. *Іn 1810, а force wаs sent against Raja Sultan Khan оf Bhimber аnd wаs met wіth fierce resistance. However, іn 1812 another Sikh army under prince Kharak Singh defeated Sultan Khan аnd the Bhimber state wаs annexed аs Jagir оf Kharak Singh. *Around the same time, Ranjit Singh acquired Gujrat аnd invaded Khari Khariyali ruled by Raja Umar Khan. Raja Umar Khan made peace wіth Ranjit Singh. But before а settlement cоuld be made, he died аnd the state аnd Mirpur became part оf Ranjit Singh's territories.
> 
> Mirpur
> 
> 
> By the way the 1810 battle is remembered by many people from my region as the day we beat back a far larger and better equipped Sikh army. Sultan Khan Bhimberi is a hero and legend to us all.
> 
> 
> Two things also, the Mirpuris make up a part of Azad Kashmir and much of the revolts and wars were led by the people of Kotli, Bhimber, Muzzaffrabad and tribes like the Sudhans.
> 
> 
> Agree with the rest. Had there been killing of Kashmiris by our Pakhtun brothers, we would never have fought side by side.



Damn our home is near Bhimber Nala  But in Punjab



Pak-one said:


> Sudhans are sadozais?



They are Mohyal Brahmin converts not pashtun decent. They sided with pashtuns though.

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## dawn_news

sreekumar said:


> We dont claim about OIT.But when Britishers experienced the advancement of Indian civilization during their invasion.They become envy about India and want the credit of Indian civilization.Because then only they claim that White are superiror than Indians and also justification of looting of India.AIT is the manifestation of that effort of Britian and their rulers.
> So we gave little importance to that BS.



That doesnt change the fact Indo-European original homeland was not South Asia. There is difference between Nazi aryan theory which is similar to OIT hindutva version just different name.


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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

Nuri Natt said:


> These were not ethnic Kashmiris Waz is talking about, but Pakistani side Kashmir Azad Kashmir. Two different groups.
> 
> 
> 
> Damn our home is near Bhimber Nala  But in Punjab
> 
> 
> 
> They are Mohyal Brahmin converts not pashtun decent. They sided with pashtuns though.


A kashmiri told me that he is sudhan and they are sadozai. I dont know much about them.


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## SrNair

Nuri Natt said:


> That doesnt change the fact Indo-European original homeland was not South Asia. There is difference between Nazi aryan theory which is similar to OIT hindutva version just different name.



AIT is a wrong theory .I dont know the validity of OIT.But my #271 post is basic reason for AIT.


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## dawn_news

Pak-one said:


> A kashmiri told me that he is sudhan and they are sadozai. I dont know much about them.



Yes now days some have started to claim that because of similar sounding name. But are not actually pashtun decent.



sreekumar said:


> AIT is a wrong theory .I dont know the validity of OIT.But my #271 post is basic reason for AIT.



Yes AIT-OIT both are wrong and Indians speaking Indo-European languages is just by chance. Excelent logic


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## SrNair

Nuri Natt said:


> Yes now days some have started to claim that because of similar sounding name. But are not actually pashtun decent.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes AIT-OIT both are wrong and Indians speaking Indo-European languages is just by chance. Excelent logic



Aehh Mr.logic.Just google about India's history.You will get answer.India created its own civilization.It is correct ,foreign invasion happens in our history .And our culture and language absorbs some parts of invading culture .But still we follow that basic Indian culture and religion even if there is some slightest change it is still indigenous.
You may boast and claim that your culture is similar to that barabarian invaders.But our civilization is created us by our own hardwork.So we dont believe in AIT bullshit.


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## dawn_news

sreekumar said:


> Aehh Mr.logic.Just google about India's history.You will get answer.India created its own civilization.It is correct ,foreign invasion happens in our history .And our culture and language absorbs some parts of invading culture .But still we follow that basic Indian culture and religion even if there is some slightest change it is still indigenous.
> You may boast and claim that your culture is similar to that barabarian invaders.But our civilization is created us by our own hardwork.So we dont believe in AIT bullshit.



Ok all right, lets end this debate.


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## SrNair

Nuri Natt said:


> Ok all right, lets end this debate.



Ok .with pleasure


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## anonymus

@Nuri Natt .

If you want to get an account of genetic anthropology of subcontinent,at least get it from proper sources like The genographic project of national geographic rather than filth of sites like harappa sharappa who have no scientific methodology and are run by amatures.

Here:

Who Am I: Reference Populations Overview

You could submit your DNA for analaysis even thought i would advise against it.

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## SrNair

anonymus said:


> @Nuri Natt .
> 
> If you want to get an account of genetic anthropology of subcontinent,at least get it from proper sources like The genographic project of national geographic rather than filth of sites like harappa sharappa who have no scientific methodology and are run by amatures.
> 
> Here:
> 
> Who Am I: Reference Populations Overview
> 
> You could submit your DNA for analaysis even thought i would advise against it.



But @anonymus there is a problem in the South Indian part.And I can see in almost all other sites.They only study the DNA of SC/ST or Adivais.(May be they are the ancient people).But they dont take DNA of upper class like Brahmins ,Tamil brahmins ,Nairs ,Christians etc why is that?
Sorry for offtopic.


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## anonymus

sreekumar said:


> But @anonymus there is a problem in the South Indian part.And I can see in almost all other sites.They only study the DNA of SC/ST or Adivais.(May be they are the ancient people).But they dont take DNA of upper class like Brahmins ,Tamil brahmins ,Nairs ,Christians etc why is that?
> Sorry for offtopic.




If they are taking randomised samples, it is highly unlikely that the sample would be from a higher caste person since their number is very low ( Brahmins are 4% ). Anyway overall genetic profile of an population is a macro variable and could not provide fine genetic breakups.

If you want to specifically find your ancestry, you could buy their kit ( but it cost close to 12000 rupees )


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## SrNair

anonymus said:


> If they are taking randomised samples, it is highly unlikely that the sample would be from a higher caste person since their number is very low ( Brahmins are 4% ). Anyway overall genetic profile of an population is a macro variable and could not provide fine genetic breakups.
> 
> If you wan't to specifically find your ancestry, you could buy their kit ( but it cost close to 12000 rupees )



Are you from south India?Kerala?


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## anonymus

sreekumar said:


> Are you from south India?Kerala?




No from North (Delhi/West UP)

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## INDIC

sreekumar said:


> But @anonymus there is a problem in the South Indian part.And I can see in almost all other sites.They only study the DNA of SC/ST or Adivais.(May be they are the ancient people).But they dont take DNA of upper class like Brahmins ,Tamil brahmins ,Nairs ,Christians etc why is that?
> Sorry for offtopic.



The genetic test of Harvard Medical school is very informative. They have also put huge doubt on Aryan invasion theory seeing the high percentage of ANI all across India because before so called Aryan invasion the population of India was too high based on cultivation, thus the Aryan invasion should have brought same amount of people from outside which is impossible to generalize.

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## SrNair

INDIC said:


> The genetic test of Harvard Medical school is very informative. They have also put huge doubt on Aryan invasion theory seeing the high percentage of ANI all across India because before so called Aryan invasion the population of India was too high based on cultivation, thus the Aryan invasion should have brought same amount of people from outside which is impossible to generalize.



So you think some foreign elements in South India?



anonymus said:


> No from North (Delhi/West UP)



Did you test you ancestry with that kit?


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## INDIC

sreekumar said:


> So you think some foreign elements in South India?



South Indian indeed carries the Eurasian ancestry and can be related to the human migration across the world, you may know that Europeans(except the Slavs) carry distant genetic similarities with Indians. Culturally only Indo-Iranians shared a similar culture because they lived in proximity with each other, other Indo-European people share distant similarity. Since Europeans wanted to fake themselves as Aryans for their white supremacy, they were more desperate to make their connections with Indians.

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## anonymus

sreekumar said:


> So you think some foreign elements in South India?



Certainly there is foreign element.

See, Indian subcontinent is geographically shaped in such a way it act as an collecting bowl of anyone migrating towards East. In North and North East, there is impregnable Himalayan mountain range and in South, South East and South west, there is Indian ocean there is only one way to enter India in large numbers and that is from Northwest through Bolan and Khyber pass of which Bolan pass was the major route of migration. There is very little chance that any region of India is free from foreign admixture.



sreekumar said:


> Did you test you ancestry with that kit?



No,

Never had 12000 rupees to waste on test.

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## SrNair

INDIC said:


> South Indian indeed carries the Eurasian ancestry and can be related to the human migration across the world, you may know that Europeans(except the Slavs) carry distant genetic similarities with Indians. Culturally only Indo-Iranians shared a similar culture because they lived in proximity with each other, other Indo-European people share distant similarity. Since Europeans wanted to fake themselves as Aryans for their white supremacy, they were more desperate to make their connections with Indians.



Ok got it.One last question what is this Slav people?


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## anonymus

INDIC said:


> South Indian indeed carries the Eurasian ancestry and can be related to the human migration across the world, you may know that Europeans(except the Slavs) carry distant genetic similarities with Indians. Culturally only Indo-Iranians shared a similar culture because they lived in proximity with each other, other Indo-European people share distant similarity. Since Europeans wanted to fake themselves as Aryans for their white supremacy, they were more desperate to make their connections with Indians.




People have migrated to India since 40000 years. The ethnic group which max muller dubbed as Aryan was neither the first nor last.

Even after Aryan migration, there has been three major migration [ parthians (sakas), Kushans and Huns ] and one minor (Greek)

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## SrNair

anonymus said:


> Certainly there is foreign element.
> 
> See, Indian subcontinent is geographically shaped in such a way it act as an collecting bowl of anyone migrating towards East. In North and North East, there is impregnable Himalayan mountain range and in South, South East and South west, there is Indian ocean there is only one way to enter India in large numbers and that is from Northwest through Bolan and Khyber pass of which Bolan pass was the major route of migration. There is very little chance that any region of India is free from foreign admixture.
> 
> 
> 
> No,
> 
> Never had 12000 rupees to waste on test.



So India is a melting pot of Human race.All races are together
Too right mate .No on will destroy their 12000 rs for this ancestry BS .We can buy a good Micromax Canvas for that.

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## INDIC

sreekumar said:


> Ok got it.One last question what is this Slav people?



East Europeans like Russians, Ukranians, Poles etc. They share a common gene R1a with Indians. Rest of the Europeans carry R1b which shows the Indo-European people split tens of thousands of years ago.

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## anonymus

sreekumar said:


> So India is a melting pot of Human race.All races are together
> Too right mate .No on will destroy their 12000 rs for this ancestry BS .We can buy a good Micromax Canvas for that.




If you have 12000 rs to spare, you should participate in that project. It is a scientific project to trace migration patterns not some racist mumbo jumbo spouted by @shan aka @Nuri Natt.

I seriously never had 12000 rs to spare and anyway mythological ancestry is way more interesting.

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## INDIC

anonymus said:


> People have migrated to India since 40000 years. The ethnic group which max muller dubbed as Aryan was neither the first nor last.
> 
> Even after Aryan migration, there has been three major migration [ parthians (sakas), Kushans and Huns ] and one minor (Greek)



If you read Hindu scriptures, Arya or Dravida were not races but their meaning was changed to races by colonial indologists. Earliest Hindus referred themselves as Arya because they practised certain customs of Vedas and historically only Hindus and Zoroastrians have referred themselves as Aryans until European started to pretend as Aryans in late 1800. Dravida which is too Sanskrit in origin was a geographical expression for some regions of South India.

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## anonymus

INDIC said:


> If you read Hindu scriptures, Arya or Dravida were not races but their meaning was changed to races by colonial indologists. Earliest Hindus referred themselves as Arya because they practised certain customs of Vedas and historically only Hindus and Zoroastrians have referred themselves as Aryans until European started to pretend as Aryans in late 1800. Dravida which is too Sanskrit in origin was a geographical expression for some regions of South India.




I know about both etymology of Aryan term and the concept of both Aryavrat and Airyana vaeja. I was just pointing to the fact that in face of unbroken stream of migration of ethnic groups into India, the emphasis put on Aryan put by both proponents and opponents of AIT is perfunctory and overblown.

The correct response to this controversy is rolleyes

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## anonymus

@INDIC 

When i read about greek mythology, i could not help myself from taking notice of similarity in both Ancient Greek and vedic hinduism. Not only is similarity on macro scale like pantheon of Gods but also on details like similarities in story of origin of both Indra and Zeus.

It is pretty logical for anyone to drew connections to some common ancestral group in recent history.

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## INDIC

anonymus said:


> @INDIC
> 
> When i read about greek mythology, i could not help myself from taking notice of similarity in both Ancient Greek and vedic hinduism. Not only is similarity on macro scale like pantheon of Gods but also on details like similarities in story of origin of both Indra and Zeus.
> 
> It is pretty logical for anyone to drew connections to some common ancestral group in recent history.



They all have Indo-European origin, so there is no surprise there is a connection in the mythology but the division took tens of thousands of years ago and also the ancient Babylonian culture has influenced many cultures in Asia, Europe and North Africa.

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## anonymus

INDIC said:


> They all have Indo-European origin, so there is no surprise there is a connection in the mythology but the division took tens of thousands of years ago and also the ancient Babylonian culture has influenced many cultures in Asia, Europe and North Africa.


Certainly,

And difference between viking religion and Vedic Hinduism where even though pantheon is same but mythology of origin is completely different compared to southern European where both pantheon and lore is same, just names are different is a proof that split between Northern Europeans and Indian occurred before that of Southern European and Indians.

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## SrNair

anonymus said:


> @INDIC
> 
> When i read about greek mythology, i could not help myself from taking notice of similarity in both Ancient Greek and vedic hinduism. Not only is similarity on macro scale like pantheon of Gods but also on details like similarities in story of origin of both Indra and Zeus.
> 
> It is pretty logical for anyone to drew connections to some common ancestral group in recent history.



@anonymus the link that you posted .I search that.In South Indian the percentage is only west asian and some others.
Some Pak members here claim that ASI have australoid elements .Here I cant see that


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## anonymus

sreekumar said:


> @anonymus the link that you posted .I search that.In South Indian the percentage is only west asian and some others.
> Some Pak members here claim that ASI have australoid elements .Here I cant see that




National geographic is using different criterion to classify racial group ( that based on halogroups rather than physical appearance )

Probably South west Asian genotype roughly correspond to australoid group.

Roughly old system and new system would have following similarities ( Nordic = North european; Negroite= Sub saharan african; Australoid = South west asian + some South east asian; Mediterranean and brachylepheus = Mediterranian + South west asian;
Mongoloid= South east Asian + Altaic)

Major Australoid concentration is found in tribals, it is not too common among caste hindus.

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## livingdead

anonymus said:


> @INDIC
> 
> When i read about greek mythology, i could not help myself from taking notice of similarity in both Ancient Greek and vedic hinduism. Not only is similarity on macro scale like pantheon of Gods but also on details like similarities in story of origin of both Indra and Zeus.
> 
> It is pretty logical for anyone to drew connections to some common ancestral group in recent history.


I read it somewhere that vedic people plagiarized sumerian version of original flood or at least the original story can be traced to sumerians.


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## anonymus

hinduguy said:


> I read it somewhere that vedic people plagiarized sumerian version of original flood or at least the original story can be traced to sumerians.





Could happen.

But in pre-history, you needed to be in contact of source in order to plagiarise.


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## dawn_news

sreekumar said:


> But @anonymus there is a problem in the South Indian part.And I can see in almost all other sites.They only study the DNA of SC/ST or Adivais.(May be they are the ancient people).But they dont take DNA of upper class like Brahmins ,Tamil brahmins ,Nairs ,Christians etc why is that?
> Sorry for offtopic.



Who told you they don't? South Indian brahmins has been tested and they clearly show higher ANI then natives 95% of population.



anonymus said:


> @Nuri Natt .
> 
> If you want to get an account of genetic anthropology of subcontinent,at least get it from proper sources like The genographic project of national geographic rather than filth of sites like harappa sharappa who have no scientific methodology and are run by amatures.
> 
> Here:
> 
> Who Am I: Reference Populations Overview
> 
> You could submit your DNA for analaysis even thought i would advise against it.



Harappadna analyse autosomal genetic data, do you know what does it mean? It break down ancestry in different groups. There are half dozens sites which do the same. The link you posted uses same technique just given different names to groups etc 

Next time don't call it amature site it will only make you sound even more stupid. You have no idea of what you are talking about, buy some books.


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## anonymus

@hinduguy 

The lore of great flood is so common amongst varied cultures that it could even predate Sumerians.


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## dawn_news

anonymus said:


> If you have 12000 rs to spare, you should participate in that project. It is a scientific project to trace migration patterns not some racist mumbo jumbo spouted by @shan aka @Nuri Natt.
> 
> I seriously never had 12000 rs to spare and anyway mythological ancestry is way more interesting.



Yes racist because i don't believe in Out of India theory? Hindutvas are most retarded ones ever,


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## livingdead

anonymus said:


> @hinduguy
> 
> The lore of great flood is so common amongst varied cultures that it could even predate Sumerians.


well they all wanted to start the creation story from a clean slate.. but sumerians are the oldest one among those who had this story right?

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## INDIC

anonymus said:


> If you have 12000 rs to spare, you should participate in that project. It is a scientific project to trace migration patterns not some racist mumbo jumbo spouted by @shan aka @Nuri Natt.
> 
> I seriously never had 12000 rs to spare and anyway mythological ancestry is way more interesting.



Wasting 12,000 rupees for genetic test.


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## anonymus

hinduguy said:


> well they all wanted to start the creation story from a clean slate.. but sumerians are the oldest one among those who had this story right?




They have one of the oldest written records too.

Writing is pretty recent phenomenon probably some 6000 years old .




INDIC said:


> Wasting 12,000 rupees for genetic test.



If you have money then it is not such a bad idea.


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## INDIC

hinduguy said:


> well they all wanted to start the creation story from a clean slate.. but sumerians are the oldest one among those who had this story right?



Indus Valley civilization traded with Sumerians 5000 years back, so there can be a connection but you can't assume it as one way transfer.

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## dawn_news

sreekumar said:


> So you think some foreign elements in South India?
> 
> 
> 
> Did you test you ancestry with that kit?



Well at this point since 23andme has stopped giving health reports. So its useless and waste of money, you will not gonna find anything special in your genetic test for ancestry reasons, it depends on your region, caste and there most already be some samples in HAP from your region.


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## himalayah

anonymus said:


> @Nuri Natt .
> 
> If you want to get an account of genetic anthropology of subcontinent,at least get it from proper sources like The genographic project of national geographic rather than filth of sites like harappa sharappa who have no scientific methodology and are run by amatures.
> 
> Here:
> 
> Who Am I: Reference Populations Overview
> 
> You could submit your DNA for analaysis even thought i would advise against it.




Just went through it. Fascinating. Never knew they had a project like this running. I was always looking for a credible source regarding those breakups.

An interesting thing is National Geographic confirms that outside admixture within past 10,000 years is very limited in the Indian population- i.e. only 5-10%. Whereas the highest concentration of south west Asian ancestry amongst tested groups (associated with first migrations from Africa) is also in India- around 40-50 percent in most Indian populations.

Things like this are always up for interpretation, but the unique proportions and types of ancestral origins of Indians from that link reinforces another paper I'd read which stated there was remarkable uniformity in the genetic composition of Indians, with external influences having a negligible impact over the past 15-20,000 years.

Thanks @Anonymous.

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## SrNair

Nuri Natt said:


> *Who told you they don't? South Indian brahmins has been tested and they clearly show higher ANI then natives 95% of population.*
> 
> 
> 
> Harappadna analyse autosomal genetic data, do you know what does it mean? It break down ancestry in different groups. There are half dozens sites which do the same. The link you posted uses same technique just given different names to groups etc
> 
> Next time don't call it amature site it will only make you sound even more stupid. You have no idea of what you are talking about, buy some books.



Any proof?South India's native populations are now categorized as SC/ST/OBC Adivasis etc.



Nuri Natt said:


> *Well at this point since 23andme *has stopped giving health reports. So its useless and waste of money, you will not gonna find anything special in your genetic test for ancestry reasons, it depends on your region, caste and there most already be some samples in* HAP* from your region.




.????



Nuri Natt said:


> Yes racist because i don't believe in Out of India theory? Hindutvas are most retarded ones ever,



Again Do you have any proof?AIT is already rejected .OIT cant accept or reject because for both we need proof


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## dawn_news

anonymus said:


> @Nuri Natt .
> 
> If you want to get an account of genetic anthropology of subcontinent,at least get it from proper sources like The genographic project of national geographic rather than filth of sites like harappa sharappa who have no scientific methodology and are run by amatures.
> 
> Here:
> 
> Who Am I: Reference Populations Overview
> 
> You could submit your DNA for analaysis even thought i would advise against it.



From the link you posted.

North Indian

*The 5% Northern European percentage represents more recent interaction with people of ultimately European origin, perhaps via the ancient Indo-Iranian-speaking steppe nomads of Central Asia, who are thought to have migrated into India around 3,500 years ago.*

Basically even genographic is rejecting OIT and by ancient Indo-Iranian coming 3500 years ago they meant "Aryans". But since now its dirty word thanks to Nazis so they have stopped using it. Anyway they have explained it in very simple terms. There is genetic difference between castes and regions even in North India. So sites like HAP come at handy if one want to see detailed admixture of different people from all over South Asia. Now will you call that site racist for saying ancient Indo-Iranian speking steppe nomads of Central Asia migrated to South Asia 3500 years ago?

Because genographic sure seem to love the idea of them being European origin which is bs. Because if they migrated from Central Asia then how can they be europeans? Its like saying europeans have Indian origin after all Indians also have Euro genes, but they will never say that. So ultimately the site you posted seem quite racist to me.



sreekumar said:


> Again Do you have any proof?AIT is already rejected .OIT cant accept or reject because for both we need proof



Look at the link @anonymus posted, even they reject OIT. No one believes in it a part from hindutvas. OIT is most rediclous theory ever.


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## SrNair

Nuri Natt said:


> Form the link you posted.
> 
> North Indian
> 
> *The 5% Northern European percentage represents more recent interaction with people of ultimately European origin, perhaps via the ancient Indo-Iranian-speaking steppe nomads of Central Asia, who are thought to have migrated into India around 3,500 years ago.*
> 
> Basically even genographic is rejecting OIT and by ancient Indo-Iranian coming 3500 years ago they meant "Aryans". But since now its dirty word thanks to Nazis so they have stopped using it. Anyway they have explained it in very simple terms. There is genetic difference between castes, regions even in North India. Now will you call that site racist for saying ancient Indo-Iranian speking steppe nomads of Central Asia migrated to South Asia 3500 years ago?
> 
> Because genographic sure seem to love the idea of them being European origin which is bs. Because if they migrated from Central Asia then how can they be europeans? Its like saying europeans have Indian origin after all Indians also have Euro genes, but they will never say that. So ultimately the site you posted seem quite racist to me.
> 
> 
> 
> Look at the link @anonymus posted, even they reject OIT. No one believes in it a part from hindutvas. OIT is most rediclous theory ever.


AIT is also a ridiculous theory.We need proof to reject a theory and in different times historians debunk AIT .OIT may a fake ,but for that you must need solid evidence.


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## dawn_news

sreekumar said:


> AIT is also a ridiculous theory.We need proof to reject a theory and in different times historians debunk AIT .OIT may a fake ,but for that you must need solid evidence.



Well AIT or AMT for a pc word are not ridiculous theory, far from it. Its the only theory accepted world wide. Even Indians accepted that a part from hindutvas of course.


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## SrNair

Nuri Natt said:


> Well AIT or AMT for a pc word are not ridiculous theory, far from it. Its the only theory accepted world wide. Even Indians accepted that a part from hindutvas of course.



AIT also debunked by many reputed historians.Just google you can see that.IVC and Indian civilization is quite indigenous .We Indians create it.That culture is still prevails in India .Foreigner contribution is that they give some slightest change or Indian culture absorbs some of it element .Otherwise rest are same like it was in 5000 years ago.
Now stay on the topic.


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## dawn_news

sreekumar said:


> AIT also debunked by many reputed historians.Just google you can see that.IVC and Indian civilization is quite indigenous .We Indians create it.That culture is still prevails in India .Foreigner contribution is that they give some slightest change or Indian culture absorbs some of it element .Otherwise rest are same like it was in 5000 years ago.
> Now stay on the topic.



The only theory which get debunked is Nazi theory of aryan invasion. Like europeans invading south asia to spread culture and language theory get debunked. That theory is similar to OIT which isnt even given importance outside India.

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## SrNair

Nuri Natt said:


> The only theory which get debunked is Nazi theory of aryan invasion. Like europeans invading south asia to spread culture and language theory get debunked. That theory is similar to OIT which isnt even given importance outside India.



Thats also what I am talking about.Indian culture is quite indigenous.Foreigners like Afzal khan and others did some modification .But still we follow that ancient indigenous culture.


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## Informant

AAAAAAaahhhh so this is where the saying comes from: "Baghal main churi main pe ram ram"


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## WAR-rior

Informant said:


> AAAAAAaahhhh so this is where the saying comes from: "Baghal main churi main pe ram ram"



Exactly. Muslims invaders thot that trechery is their birth right and nobody else shud take it. Md. Ghouri defeated Prithviraj Chuhan after 15 attempts, everytime excused. The Muslims came and invaded temples, raped hindu women, all in name of Islam. Finally, when you got a person who answered u in ur own language and stylem, who ultimately decimated the Muslim Rule to a small state, you guyz are credible enough to cry foul? ''Everything is *fair *in Love and War'' - This saying came from the Arabs. Some reason right. So dont cry like babies when the same *fair *stuff was shoven into ur holes. Musalman kare to Chamatkar, Baki koi kare to Balatkar. This attitude will keep the world spitting and abusing u forever. Keep it Up.


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## Informant

WAR-rior said:


> Exactly. Muslims invaders thot that trechery is their birth right and nobody else shud take it. Md. Ghouri defeated Prithviraj Chuhan after 15 attempts, everytime excused. The Muslims came and invaded temples, raped hindu women, all in name of Islam. Finally, when you got a person who answered u in ur own language and stylem, who ultimately decimated the Muslim Rule to a small state, you guyz are credible enough to cry foul? ''Everything is *fair *in Love and War'' - This saying came from the Arabs. Some reason right. So dont cry like babies when the same *fair *stuff was shoven into ur holes. Musalman kare to Chamatkar, Baki koi kare to Balatkar. This attitude will keep the world spitting and abusing u forever. Keep it Up.



Rotu main to main mazaak kar raha tha. Rotu bhai rondi na dalein


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## dawn_news

sreekumar said:


> Thats also what I am talking about.Indian culture is quite indigenous.Foreigners like Afzal khan and others did some modification .But still we follow that ancient indigenous culture.



You are not getting it. For the same reason hindutvas were humiliated in Carlifornia when they wanted to change history books. But guess some will never learn.


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## WAR-rior

Informant said:


> Rotu main to main mazaak kar raha tha. Rotu bhai rondi na dalein



Bas kar pagle, aur kitna rulaega? 

By da way what u just did was, 'muh mein ram bagal mein chhuri'. Spitting venom and when cornered, get back to 'main to mazak kar raha tha' mode.


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## Informant

WAR-rior said:


> Bas kar pagle, aur kitna rulaega?
> 
> By da way what u just did was, 'muh mein ram bagal mein chhuri'. Spitting venom and when cornered, get back to 'main to mazak kar raha tha' mode.



Pffffffffffffft


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## WAR-rior

Informant said:


> Pffffffffffffft


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## SrNair

Nuri Natt said:


> You are not getting it. For the same reason hindutvas were humiliated in Carlifornia when they wanted to change history books. But guess some will never learn.



We believe our indigenous Indian culture.How can you tell it is Hindutva ,when I claim our culture is indigenous?
I dont claim whether OIT is right or wrong
Foreign morons both West countries and some others want to claim and take credit of the advanced IVC and Indian culture .It is quite disgusting.Why these guys cant proud about their own culture instead stare on India?
You can take it or leave it ,In India AIT and its idea is began to fading.


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## INDIC

Nuri Natt said:


> *The 5% Northern European percentage represents more recent interaction with people of ultimately European origin, perhaps via the ancient Indo-Iranian-speaking steppe nomads of Central Asia, who are thought to have migrated into India around 3,500 years ago*.



That's a_ jholachap_ version of history created in imagination.


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## Jf Thunder

punit said:


> yeah! guerrilla warfare . ever heard about it!


thats afghan tradition, oh and we never kill during peace talks


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## punit

Jf Thunder said:


> thats afghan tradition, oh and we never kill during peace talks



guerrilla warfare is not Afghan Specific!


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## Jf Thunder

punit said:


> guerrilla warfare is not Afghan Specific!


it is


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## punit

Jf Thunder said:


> it is



i would recommend some learning about the topic!

History of guerrilla warfare - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Jf Thunder

punit said:


> i would recommend some learning about the topic!
> 
> History of guerrilla warfare - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


but gorilla warfare is a declared war, the stabbing by shivaji was a surprise, he went there to talk, pure cowardice


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## punit

Jf Thunder said:


> but gorilla warfare is a declared war, the stabbing by shivaji was a surprise, he went there to talk, pure cowardice



everything is fair in love and war. Shersah suri captured Rohatas Fort by sending soldiers in disguise of place of womenr and children inside the fort! read that also!

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## Jf Thunder

punit said:


> everything is fair in love and war. Shersah suri captured Rohatas Fort by sending soldiers in disguise of place of womenr and children inside the fort! read that also!


not everything is fair in Love and war, there are rules everywhere, it was the bristish who made this completely useless quote, and btw, they were having peace talks not war, 
you must say "Everything is fair in love and war if Indians are fighting in it"


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