# Pakistan buys 13 F16 from Jordan



## Saifullah Sani

According to today's jang newspaper Pakistan bought 13 F16 from Jordan with the approval of manufacturer.

Reactions: Like Like:
10


----------



## ghilzai

Saifullah Sani said:


> According to today's jang newspaper Pakistan bought 13 F16 from Jordan with the approval of manufacturer


Any truth in it?, dumb move should spend the money on thunder but heck dumb paf top brass.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Nishan_101

Saifullah Sani said:


> According to today's jang newspaper Pakistan bought 13 F16 from Jordan with the approval of manufacturer



Source:Royal Jordanian Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

They have a total of 16 F-16s and similarly 21 F-16s are present in Venuezvella and 28 F-16s from US which PAF might have acquired between 2002-2004 and upgrade all of the jets in Turkey. So there would be 100s of jets out there...


----------



## ghilzai

PAF has been nothing but a disappointment, you will always face disappointments when young minds are not given chance and the positions on top level are occupied hereditary.

We been waiting for 3rd squadron for two years and god knows if block 11 will really come in June.

Bad and short sighted planning, absolute waste of money we haven't got.


----------



## Edevelop



Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## AsianLion

Great, if true , will be a good stop gap measure.


----------



## That Guy

ghilzai said:


> Any truth in it?, dumb move should spend the money on thunder but heck dumb paf top brass.


Disagree. The JF-17 is a good fighter, but the F-16 still outclasses it in many fields. Developing the JF-17 is a priority for the PAF, but they need stopgaps, which the JF-17 is slow to fill. The F-16s are already pre-made, so the only thing needed is to upgrade them if they're older models.

Reactions: Like Like:
19


----------



## ThisIsAllBS!

More F-16s...and then some even more F-16s...lol

F-16 carries more payload, have 11 hardpoints, sophisticated BVRs, and one of the most agile jet out there...

F-16 is certainly a legend!

Packs of F-16Cs armed with AIM-120Cs hunting down enemy aircraft over friendly airspace? Enemy will probably piss in pants! (Unless its USAF or something)


----------



## That Guy

ghilzai said:


> PAF has been nothing but a disappointment, you will always face disappointments when young minds are not given chance and the positions on top level are occupied hereditary.
> 
> We been waiting for 3rd squadron for two years and god knows if block 11 will really come in June.
> 
> Bad and short sighted planning, absolute waste of money we haven't got.


It takes time, money and careful consideration to refit squadrons.

Considering that PAF trains multiple air forces and has a brilliant track record, it is far from being a disappointment.



ThisIsAllBS! said:


> More F-16s...and then some even more F-16s...lol
> 
> F-16 carries more payload, have 11 hardpoints, sophisticated BVRs, and one of the most agile jet out there...
> 
> F-16 is certainly a legend!
> 
> Packs of F-16Cs armed with AIM-120Cs hunting down enemy aircraft over friendly airspace? Enemy will probably piss in pants! (Unless its USAF or something)


I agree, but I do have to stress that PAF needs to start looking at better options. The F-16 is getting more and more outdated, and India's new Sukhois outclass the F-16. It's good for defence, but only currently. If the Indians go for the Rafale, then PAF will have no choice but to look at something better than the F-16s.

Still, buying more second hand F-16s is a good move, and will help in the short term. Long term is a different matter though.

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## AsianLion

These F16s, is great replacement for our falling old Mirages and dieing pilots and as well keep the JF17s rolling out on time successfully.


----------



## That Guy

*PAF acquires F-16s from Jordan

ISLAMABAD: The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has acquired one squadron of F-16 multi-role fighter aircraft from Jordan and 13 F-16s will be inducted into the service next month.*
With this, the strength of PAF F-16s will reach 76. The fighter aircraft have been purchased from Jordan and they were in the use of the Royal Jordanian Air Force (RJAF).

The deal has already been finalised and inked by both the countries. The 13 aircraft are of F-16 A/B Block-15 and the PAF has similar aircraft in its fleet which are flying satisfactorily. The deal about 12 A models and one B model aircraft has been authenticated by the manufacturing company and the US government has also given its nod for the sale/purchase of the planes.

Well-placed defence sources told The News here the other day that the purchased aircraft were in good condition since they had attained Mid-Life Update (MLU) and they would be providing service for another 20 years with almost 3,000 hours on average available to them for flying.

They have been modified into Air Defence Fighters (ADF) versions. The Ogden Air Logistics Centre performed structural upgrades to extend the aircraft life from the designed 4,000 to 8,000 hours flying time as part of the programme. They also modified the aircraft engine bay for the upgraded Pratt and Whitney F100-220E engine. The induction of the planes will give a boost in air power to the PAF that is rendering a remarkable service in the war against terror.

The Chief of the Air Staff (CAS), Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafiq Butt, visited Jordan last year for pursuing the sale of the aircraft. He and officials concerned of the countries had hectic discussion about the sale/purchase and delivery deal.
The sources have declined to give the details of the amount involved in the deal but they have claimed that it has been transparent and it would be made public next month just before the delivery of the F-16s.

However, it is understood that the used planes are cost-effective and could provide service for a fairly longer period of time. Pakistan is also contemplating to acquire more used planes for the PAF from some other countries while the induction of JF-17 Thunder aircraft, co-production of Pakistan and China, e is also underway simultaneously, the sources said.

PAF acquires F-16s from Jordan - thenews.com.pk

Reactions: Like Like:
19


----------



## Luftwaffe

Thanks for a reasonable source @That Guy

These F-16s are most likely would be peace falcon I

Ok got it from the Article it seems these are going to be PF I A/B MLUd Think the total cost would be around $300m.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Rashid Mahmood

Luftwaffe said:


> OP Post name of News Paper/authentic source of else the Thread is a waste.
> 
> Lets suppose even if the news is true these F-16s would be peace gate I or peace gate II Block 42, highly doubt if EAF is going to sell any of F-16s that came later on as peace gate III/IV...the V/VI/VII are still new.
> 
> @Aeronaut



These F-16 Bk 15 are from Peace Falcon 1.

After the Gulf War U.S. recommenced full military relations with Jordan starting with the donation of 16 General Dynamics F-16 Fighting Falcon(12 F-16A and 4 F-16B)in storage at the Aerospace Maintenance and Regeneration Center (AMARC) at Davis Monthan AFB. Deliveries commenced in 1997 and were completed in 1998.

PAF acquires F-16s from Jordan - thenews.com.pk

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Edevelop

How much do you think we payed ? $ 15 million each ?


----------



## Donatello

Great move by the PAF.

From what i can think of, PAF went the Jordanian route as the 14 F-16s (ex-peace gate) from USA might not be forthcoming. What are the details on these F-16s from Jordan? Are they MLU-ed to accept the AMRAAMS?

Also, this might indicate that a proper offensive in tribal areas is under planning, with F-16s being utilized in A2G roles.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Luftwaffe

Rashid Mahmood said:


> These F-16 Bk 15 are from Peace Falcon 1.
> 
> After the Gulf War U.S. recommenced full military relations with Jordan starting with the donation of 16 General Dynamics F-16 Fighting Falcon(12 F-16A and 4 F-16B)in storage at the Aerospace Maintenance and Regeneration Center (AMARC) at Davis Monthan AFB. Deliveries commenced in 1997 and were completed in 1998.
> 
> PAF acquires F-16s from Jordan - thenews.com.pk


 
Never mind my post was a mess I Edited it but I am still correct.

@cb4, RJAF received them for less than billion dollars 1997-98, almost 15 years past since they have been MLUd so I think 20m+/- could be price per unit.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## That Guy

cb4 said:


> How much do you think we payed ? $ 15 million each ?


Probably around that, no more than $20 million each. The fighters are already half way through their lifespan, and they still need to be upgraded to the latest version.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Donatello

That Guy said:


> Probably around that, no more than $20 million each. The fighters are already half way through their lifespan, and they still need to be upgraded to the latest version.




The news link says they are MLU-ed..??


----------



## Luftwaffe

That Guy said:


> Probably around that, no more than $20 million each. The fighters are already half way through their lifespan, and they still need to be upgraded to the latest version.


 
Block 42 is sufficient it can perform day/night duties effectively.

According to Article:



> They have been modified into Air Defence Fighters (ADF) versions. The Ogden Air Logistics Centre performed structural upgrades to extend the aircraft life from the designed 4,000 to 8,000 hours flying time as part of the programme. They also modified the aircraft engine bay for the upgraded Pratt and Whitney F100-220E engine. The induction of the planes will give a boost in air power to the PAF that is rendering a remarkable service in the war against terror.


----------



## That Guy

Donatello said:


> The news link says they are MLU-ed..??



No, but from what I know of the Jordanian air force, the models that PAF is buying are all MLUed. As they should be, Pakistan isn't the only air force that wants to keep it's air force flying.



Luftwaffe said:


> Block 42 is sufficient it can perform day/night duties effectively.
> 
> According to Article:



Sure, but that doesn't mean that it can't be better. PAF is prideful, they'll try to upgrade it to as much as they can afford, regardless of the capabilities that are or aren't needed.


----------



## Donatello

That Guy said:


> No, but from what I know of the Jordanian air force, the models that PAF is buying are all MLUed. As they should be, Pakistan isn't the only air force that wants to keep it's air force flying.
> 
> 
> 
> Sure, but that doesn't mean that it can't be better. PAF is prideful, they'll try to upgrade it to as much as they can afford, regardless of the capabilities that are or aren't needed.




MLU brings them near to BLK50 capabilities....the main being able to fire AMRAAMs....as long as the radars are the new APG68, it's all fine. That's the main thing. F-16s even without MLU are deadly A2G aircraft.


----------



## Luftwaffe

That Guy said:


> No, but from what I know of the Jordanian air force, the models that PAF is buying are all MLUed. As they should be, Pakistan isn't the only air force that wants to keep it's air force flying.
> 
> Sure, but that doesn't mean that it can't be better. PAF is prideful, they'll try to upgrade it to as much as they can afford, regardless of the capabilities that are or aren't needed.


 
the Block 40/42 is the improved all-day/all-weather strike variant equipped with LANTRIN pod; also unofficially designated the F-16CG/DG, the night capability gave rise to the name "Night Falcons". This block features strengthened and lengthened undercarriage for LANTIRN pods, an improved radar, and a GPS receiver. From 2002, the Block 40/42 increased the weapon range available to the aircraft including JDAM, AGM-154 JSOW, Wind-Corrected Munitions Dispense WCMD and the enhanced EGBU-27 Paveway "bunker-buster" [for USAF]. Also incorporated in this block was the addition of cockpit lighting systems compatible with Aviator's Night Vision Imaging System ANVIS equipment..Block 40/42's APG-68(V)1

F-16 Versions - F-16C/D :: F-16.net

General Dynamics F-16C/D Block 40/42 Fighting Falcon

They've got more than enough punch for PAF.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## saikumar

good deal


----------



## notorious_eagle

Donatello said:


> MLU brings them near to BLK50 capabilities....the main being able to fire AMRAAMs....as long as the radars are the new APG68, it's all fine. That's the main thing. F-16s even without MLU are deadly A2G aircraft.



Not necessarily. I believe Tape 4 brings it upto Block 52 capabilities, Tape 3 brings it upto Block 42. Whatever Tape MLU these F16's have gone through, one thing you can be damn sure that they will be put through further upgrades to bring them upto Block 52 standards. PAF wants to standardize its fleet, thus its natural to put them through Tape 4 upgrades.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Luftwaffe

duhastmish said:


> Paf is becoming junkyard? Now why don't they go for super duper JF 17 ?if Jordanian reject is better than JF then god save paf.


 
Hi if you have nothing better to contribute leave this thread...go read about iaf SEPECAT Jaguars and constant upgrades.



notorious_eagle said:


> Not necessarily. I believe Tape 4 brings it upto Block 52 capabilities, Tape 3 brings it upto Block 42. Whatever Tape MLU these F16's have gone through, one thing you can be damn sure that they will be put through further upgrades to bring them upto Block 52 standards. PAF wants to standardize its fleet, thus its natural to put them through Tape 4 upgrades.


 


> Northrop Grumman Electronic Systems in Linthicum Heights, MD received a $99.5 million firm-fixed-price contract for “government furnished property for the Government of Pakistan” under the F-16 Block 50/52 new aircraft and modernization program. “The procurement of 54 AN/APG-68 (V)9 Radar Systems
> 
> 
> 
> 
> will be accomplished under the firm-fixed-price portion of the contract.” At this time, $49.75 million have been obligated, and work will be complete May 2010. The Headquarters Aeronautical Systems Center at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, OH issued the contract (FA8615-07-C-6033).


 
APG-68 (V)9 Radars for Pakistan’s F-16s (updated)

So Pakistan will have to spare and add some 25-$30m for 13 APG-V[9]


----------



## Manticore

*Modifications & Armament*
*Mid-life Update*
For a number of years the Royal Jordanian AF recognized the need to give the leased aircraft a mid-life update in the next 2 or 3 years. It was unclear for a long time whether reference was made to the MLU-program, or just to updates in general.

In January of 2004 however a LOA for an $87 million contract was signed between Jordan and Lockheed-Martin for the update of the 17 Peace Falcon II aircraft. This modification consists of enhancements to the cockpit, avionics, sensors and weapons. These upgrades also improve system reliability and supportability. Together with this upgrade this package also includes Falcon UP and Falcon STAR structural upgrades. These structural upgrades will extend the service life to 8,000 flight hours with these aircraft being able to remain in service for another 20 years. The upgrades will be performed by Turkish Aerospace Industries in its Ankara fascilities.

*Armament and Stores*
Main armament of the RJAF F-16s is the AIM-9 Sidewinder, although the RJAF was hoping to acquire the AIM-120 AMRAAM for a long time. On November 24th, 2004 a deal was announced in which Jordan would receive up to 50 AIM-120C missiles and associated equipment in a deal worth $39 million.











F-16 Air Forces - Jordan :: F-16.net



F-16 Units - RJAF 1st squadron :: F-16.net
F-16 Units - RJAF 2nd squadron :: F-16.net
F-16 Units - RJAF 6th squadron :: F-16.net

------
so, which squadron did we get?





not true multirole squadron
2 sqn (RJAF)
*Status:*
Active
*Version:*F-16A/B block 15ADF
Although envisioned to be upgraded as well, the F-16s of 2 squadron remain unmodified. Therefore they retain their specific air defence duties without being truly multirole capable.






> The 13 aircraft are of F-16 A/B Block-15 and the PAF has similar aircraft in its fleet which are flying satisfactorily. The deal about 12 A models and one B model aircraft has been authenticated by the manufacturing company and the US government has also given its nod for the sale/purchase of the planes.
> Well-placed defence sources told The News here the other day that the purchased aircraft were in good condition since they had attained Mid-Life Update (MLU)
> 
> PAF acquires F-16s from Jordan - thenews.com.pk

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Zarvan

*ISLAMABAD: The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has acquired one squadron of F-16 multi-role fighter aircraft from Jordan and 13 F-16s will be inducted into the service next month.
*


With this, the strength of PAF F-16s will reach 76. The fighter aircraft have been purchased from Jordan and they were in the use of the Royal Jordanian Air Force (RJAF).



The deal has already been finalised and inked by both the countries. The 13 aircraft are of F-16 A/B Block-15 and the PAF has similar aircraft in its fleet which are flying satisfactorily. The deal about 12 A models and one B model aircraft has been authenticated by the manufacturing company and the US government has also given its nod for the sale/purchase of the planes.



Well-placed defence sources told The News here the other day that the purchased aircraft were in good condition since they had attained Mid-Life Update (MLU) and they would be providing service for another 20 years with almost 3,000 hours on average available to them for flying.



They have been modified into Air Defence Fighters (ADF) versions. The Ogden Air Logistics Centre performed structural upgrades to extend the aircraft life from the designed 4,000 to 8,000 hours flying time as part of the programme. They also modified the aircraft engine bay for the upgraded Pratt and Whitney F100-220E engine. The induction of the planes will give a boost in air power to the PAF that is rendering a remarkable service in the war against terror.



The Chief of the Air Staff (CAS), Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafiq Butt, visited Jordan last year for pursuing the sale of the aircraft. He and officials concerned of the countries had hectic discussion about the sale/purchase and delivery deal.



The sources have declined to give the details of the amount involved in the deal but they have claimed that it has been transparent and it would be made public next month just before the delivery of the F-16s.



However, it is understood that the used planes are cost-effective and could provide service for a fairly longer period of time. Pakistan is also contemplating to acquire more used planes for the PAF from some other countries while the induction of JF-17 Thunder aircraft, co-production of Pakistan and China, e is also underway simultaneously, the sources said.
PAF acquires F-16s from Jordan - thenews.com.pk
@BLACKEAGLE


----------



## Edevelop

I don't understand why Jordan would want to sell them. They are still flying old F-5s. Why not get rid of those first ?


----------



## AsianLion

Well I just found the link, to this great news:

PAF acquires F-16s from Jordan - thenews.com.pk

Another link:

Pakistan Air Force Purchases 13 F-16 Fighter Jets From Jordan | Pakistan Military Review


----------



## mosu

Well good news for PAF


----------



## Manticore

Manticore said:


> *Modifications & Armament*
> *Mid-life Update*
> For a number of years the Royal Jordanian AF recognized the need to give the leased aircraft a mid-life update in the next 2 or 3 years. It was unclear for a long time whether reference was made to the MLU-program, or just to updates in general.
> 
> In January of 2004 however a LOA for an $87 million contract was signed between Jordan and Lockheed-Martin for the update of the 17 Peace Falcon II aircraft. This modification consists of enhancements to the cockpit, avionics, sensors and weapons. These upgrades also improve system reliability and supportability. Together with this upgrade this package also includes Falcon UP and Falcon STAR structural upgrades. These structural upgrades will extend the service life to 8,000 flight hours with these aircraft being able to remain in service for another 20 years. The upgrades will be performed by Turkish Aerospace Industries in its Ankara fascilities.
> 
> *Armament and Stores*
> Main armament of the RJAF F-16s is the AIM-9 Sidewinder, although the RJAF was hoping to acquire the AIM-120 AMRAAM for a long time. On November 24th, 2004 a deal was announced in which Jordan would receive up to 50 AIM-120C missiles and associated equipment in a deal worth $39 million.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> F-16 Air Forces - Jordan :: F-16.net
> 
> 
> 
> F-16 Units - RJAF 1st squadron :: F-16.net
> F-16 Units - RJAF 2nd squadron :: F-16.net
> F-16 Units - RJAF 6th squadron :: F-16.net
> 
> ------
> so, which squadron did we get?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> not true multirole squadron
> 2 sqn (RJAF)
> *Status:*
> Active
> *Version:*F-16A/B block 15ADF
> Although envisioned to be upgraded as well, the F-16s of 2 squadron remain unmodified. Therefore they retain their specific air defence duties without being truly multirole capable.


p.falcon2 were both adf and mlu thus making them better than p.falcon1 which are adf without mlu

the news report mentions both mlu and adf -- fingers crossed



> The 13 aircraft are of F-16 A/B Block-15 and the PAF has similar aircraft in its fleet which are flying satisfactorily. The deal about 12 A models and one B model aircraft has been authenticated by the manufacturing company and the US government has also given its nod for the sale/purchase of the planes.
> Well-placed defence sources told The News here the other day that the purchased aircraft were in good condition since they had attained Mid-Life Update (MLU)
> They have been modified into Air Defence Fighters (ADF) versions. The Ogden Air Logistics Centre performed structural upgrades to extend the aircraft life from the designed 4,000 to 8,000 hours flying time as part of the programme. They also modified the aircraft engine bay for the upgraded Pratt and Whitney F100-220E engine. The induction of the planes will give a boost in air power to the PAF that is rendering a remarkable service in the war against terror.
> PAF acquires F-16s from Jordan - thenews.com.pk


@Luftwaffe
@Rashid Mahmood

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## MastanKhan

duhastmish said:


> Paf is becoming junkyard? Now why don't they go for super duper JF 17 ?if Jordanian reject is better than JF then god save paf.


 
Hi,

Gentlemen----PAF JUST GOT US A SQDRN OF " J10B's "----AMAZING ISN'T IT----we were supposedly thinking of getting them if we had the money.

It is called going with the flow----. Pakistan would have been in talks for these plane for a little while now. A 20 mil plane gives you the same bang for the 40 mil plane---you don't even need to slow down your stride to get from one to the other.

No integration issues either----. Another 2 to 3 sqdrn's of similar F16's----and paf has narrowed the gap dramatically.

This purchase confirms what I have stated earlier----there are no KILL SWITCHES IN THE F 16's


F16 Theme song for pakistani citizens:---

" There ain'nt no ticks on me
There ain't no ticks on me
There maybe ticks on all you chicks
There ain't no ticks on me ".

" There ain't no kill switch on me
There ain't no kill switch on me
There maybe be kill switch on all you dumb chicks
There ain't no kill switch on me ".

Hehehehehehhehehe----it feels good to kick some sh-it---

Reactions: Like Like:
9


----------



## Lil Mathew

I think this is not a gud deal... Because according to above sources these f16 block15 OCU's are the same air defence fighter's given to Jordan during 1996-97 by USA( Peace Falcon 1).. The reasons are.. 

1. These f16's are not undergone MLU upgrades.. Because all 16 f16 ADF fighters in RJAF are not MLU..

2. Jordan airforce got these fighters from AMARC (storage place of out of service aircrafts).. That is at the time of contract in 1996 the fighter's compleated more than 3000 service hours and stationed in AMARC since 2004..

3. Be4 giving to RJAF these fighters undergone engine upgrade and Falcon service life improvement program (structural upgradation also not falcon star upgrade)which extends MAX service life from 4000 hrs to 8000 hrs or 20 years more life.. That is 1996 upgrade.. Already 18 years over.. Now MAXIMUM 2 years..

Compleating full service life of full 8000hrs is almost imposible as cracks will form more frequently after 3/4 of life time.. 
That is what PAF planned after 2 years.. New upgrade after extended full service lyf?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Kompromat

Luftwaffe said:


> Thanks for a reasonable source @That Guy
> 
> These F-16s are most likely would be peace falcon I
> 
> Ok got it from the Article it seems these are going to be PF I A/B MLUd Think the total cost would be around $300m.



If you remember i mentioned it to you a few months back

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## MastanKhan

Hi,

Members need to realize that this is a massive news------you just increased your fire power / strike capability by 25 - 30 % at least---in just one go---. That has suddenly tilted the balance of power a little bit.

And this news comes now when iaf says that it will have issues if facing war on two fronts. Well they got bigger problems to face now---if paf goes ahead and finds itself another 40---50 more upgraded F16's---the playing field has totally changed.

And what it comes down to is----a fully integrated aircraft and weapons systems that your pilots are familiar with----you cannot put a price on that.

There is nothing like time saved in preparing for war----. If paf can get atleast 50 more of these aircraft----it would mean that they have turned the clock back by at least 5 to 8 years in their favour and put iaf in a quandry.

Reactions: Like Like:
15


----------



## Kompromat

Lil Mathew said:


> I think this is not a gud deal... Because according to above sources these f16 block15 OCU's are the same air defence fighter's given to Jordan during 1996-97 by USA( Peace Falcon 1).. The reasons are..
> 
> 1. These f16's are not undergone MLU upgrades.. Because all 16 f16 ADF fighters in RJAF are not MLU..
> 
> 2. Jordan airforce got these fighters from AMARC (storage place of out of service aircrafts).. That is at the time of contract in 1996 the fighter's compleated more than 3000 service hours and stationed in AMARC since 2004..
> 
> 3. Be4 giving to RJAF these fighters undergone engine upgrade and Falcon service life improvement program (structural upgradation also not falcon star upgrade)which extends MAX service life from 4000 hrs to 8000 hrs or 20 years more life.. That is 1996 upgrade.. Already 18 years over.. Now MAXIMUM 2 years..
> 
> Compleating full service life of full 8000hrs is almost imposible as cracks will form more frequently after 3/4 of life time..
> That is what PAF planned after 2 years.. New upgrade after extended full service lyf?





You need some water my friend.

Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## SpArK

Very sensible purchase.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Kompromat

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Members need to realize that this is a massive news------you just increased your fire power / strike capability by 25 - 30 % at least---in just one go---. That has suddenly tilted the balance of power a little bit.
> 
> And this news comes now when iaf says that it will have issues if facing war on two fronts. Well they got bigger problems to face now---if paf goes ahead and finds itself another 40---50 more upgraded F16's---the playing field has totally changed.
> 
> And what it comes down to is----a fully integrated aircraft and weapons systems that your pilots are familiar with----you cannot put a price on that.
> 
> There is nothing like time saved in preparing for war----. If paf can get atleast 50 more of these aircraft----it would mean that they have turned the clock back by at least 5 to 8 years in their favour and put iaf in a quandry.




Destination Norway 



SpArK said:


> Very sensible purchase.



More New Block-52s will be purchased too in small numbers.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Zarvan

Aeronaut said:


> If you remember i mentioned it to you a few months back


Before coming to Pakistan will they be upgraded and if yes to which level ?



Aeronaut said:


> If you remember i mentioned it to you a few months back


Well what I can't understand is why Jordan is selling us F-16 when itself is short of good Fighter Jets what the hell is going on ????????


----------



## SpArK

Aeronaut said:


> Destination Norway
> 
> 
> 
> More New Block-52s will be purchased too in small numbers.




Its the better option. Less logistics troubles operating many and familiarity with machine since decades.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## fatman17

IF true, then they are a replacement for the 14 F-16's owed by the US which the USN did not release.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Spring Onion

some good news

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Rahil khan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Members need to realize that this is a massive news------you just increased your fire power / strike capability by 25 - 30 % at least---in just one go---. That has suddenly tilted the balance of power a little bit.
> 
> And this news comes now when iaf says that it will have issues if facing war on two fronts. Well they got bigger problems to face now---if paf goes ahead and finds itself another 40---50 more upgraded F16's---the playing field has totally changed.
> 
> And what it comes down to is----a fully integrated aircraft and weapons systems that your pilots are familiar with----you cannot put a price on that.
> 
> There is nothing like time saved in preparing for war----. If paf can get atleast 50 more of these aircraft----it would mean that they have turned the clock back by at least 5 to 8 years in their favour and put iaf in a quandry.



I think at least 100 vipers would be an ideal number in PAF arsenal. More than 150 Thunders plus more than couple of squadrons of latest Chinese multirole fighters in our near future....and the situation would be totally changed. And these numbers are very much realistic... What do you say sir ??

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Kompromat

fatman17 said:


> IF true, then they are a replacement for the 14 F-16's owed by the US which the USN did not release.



What will Jordan do?


----------



## Zarvan

Aeronaut said:


> What will Jordan do?


That is what I want to know Jordan itself is short of good Fighter Jets and its selling F-16 to us can't understand @BLACKEAGLE can help us out


----------



## farhan_9909

Well the Total expected strength of F-16 will reach close to 100 in near future.

With this we Now have Total 77 F-16's


----------



## trident2010

Excellent purchase !! 13 planes in one go will give good boost in capabilities.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## AsianLion

why waste time, and worry, what Jordan will do or not do, nothing relevant to us.

As I read more knowledgeable comments, PAF has really pulled a great purchase.

The great thing is that the news was not let out before it was finalised, Indians or any other country cannot play politics at it. Indians are shocked !!

This is a subtle yet excellent prudent purchase. PAF definitely needs more F16s.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## fatman17

The Royal Jordanian Air Force operates a total of 64 F-16A/B aircraft, 16 of which are ADFs, while the remaining 39 are MLUs or have been modified to MLU standard.


----------



## Zarvan

farhan_9909 said:


> Well the Total expected strength of F-16 will reach close to 100 in near future.
> 
> With this we Now have Total 77 F-16's


and How will that happen by the way their was news of Pakistani trying to get F-16 from netherlands too whats latest on that @AsianUnion Well I am concerned for Jordan they have to face Israel



fatman17 said:


> The Royal Jordanian Air Force operates a total of 64 F-16A/B aircraft, 16 of which are ADFs, while the remaining 39 are MLUs or have been modified to MLU standard.


Sir my question is why are they selling these 13 when they don't have much F-16 themselves


----------



## SQ8

Funny thing. Since Jordan had acquired F-16s from Belgium to update its fleet.. I find this whole thing highly suspect.
Jordan Buys 20 F-16 MLU from Holland, Belgium

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## 45'22'

fatman17 said:


> The Royal Jordanian Air Force operates a total of 64 F-16A/B aircraft, 16 of which are ADFs, while the remaining 39 are MLUs or have been modified to MLU standard.



i think the 16 ADF's have also been upgraded to mlu 
and 3 of them crashed i guess.......they are selling you the remaining 13


----------



## MastanKhan

Hi,

Another 50 of these aircraft---putting the numbers at 125 + F16 puts the paf at numbers where it can give back to what it takes from the enemy---. People who understand the significance of time in a weapon spurchase can truly understand the importance of this deal.

Now if in the next 2 to 5 years---if the paf can find a 75--100 of these aircraft and have a strike force of 150--175 aircraft---it is a guarantee that you can write off iaf----.

At the most---iaf will only be able to deploy 60% of its su30 against paf in the begining---.

This procurement is a total game changer---paf don't need the J10B for the next 5 to 10 years. What a massive counter strike by the paf.

Awhile ago the question was brought up by members of u s congress---we are selling all these advance missile to our allies---what if they turned on us----well the truth is that their concerns were serious. the u s does have so much confidence intheir allies that the instance won't arise----secondly---their IFF transponder and their knowledge of the missile how it acts was the saving grace.

the answer was---the allies want what we have---if we don't sell it---they will go to the other party and use their weapons systems---which we don't know much about.

The myth of the kill switch has died its natural death.

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## Zarvan

Oscar said:


> Funny thing. Since Jordan had acquired F-16s from Belgium to update its fleet.. I find this whole thing highly suspect.
> Jordan Buys 20 F-16 MLU from Holland, Belgium


That is what is making me confusing or USA and and F-16 has found a new way to sell Pakistan F-16 and avoid direct pressure they will sell Pakistan F-16 through Jordan and Saudi Arabia will help Jordan get F-16 from other countries and Turkey will upgrade them this only make some sense


----------



## MilSpec

That is a big purchase, instant squadron purchase should raise some eyebrows in the neighborhood. This needs keen observation.



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Another 50 of these aircraft---putting the numbers at 125 + F16 puts the paf at numbers where it can give back to what it takes from the enemy---. People who understand the significance of time in a weapon spurchase can truly understand the importance of this deal.
> 
> Now if in the next 2 to 5 years---if the paf can find a 75--100 of these aircraft and have a strike force of 150--175 aircraft---it is a guarantee that you can write off iaf----.
> 
> At the most---iaf will only be able to deploy 60% of its su30 against paf in the begining---.
> 
> This procurement is a total game changer---paf don't need the J10B for the next 5 to 10 years. What a massive counter strike by the paf.
> 
> Awhile ago the question was brought up by members of u s congress---we are selling all these advance missile to our allies---what if they turned on us----well the truth is that their concerns were serious. the u s does have so much confidence intheir allies that the instance won't arise----secondly---their IFF transponder and their knowledge of the missile how it acts was the saving grace.
> 
> the answer was---the allies want what we have---if we don't sell it---they will go to the other party and use their weapons systems---which we don't know much about.
> 
> The myth of the kill switch has died its natural death.



the problem is that MKi is not the only strike force that IAF will deploy, in 2-5 years, The force projection you envisage can be equally matched by air superiority packages identified other than Mki

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## IND151

Aeronaut said:


> Destination Norway
> 
> 
> 
> *More New Block-52s will be purchased too in small numbers*.



If possible, PAF should go for Block 60.


----------



## Kompromat

IND151 said:


> If possible, PAF should go for Block 60.



Too expensive.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## SQ8

It could be any of these
In either case, these are already MLU'ed F-16s.. smart by PAF to skip on the update process.
netherlands sells f16 jordan - Netherlands News

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## IND151

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Members need to realize that this is a massive news------you just increased your fire power / strike capability by 25 - 30 % at least---in just one go---. That has suddenly tilted the balance of power a little bit.
> 
> And this news comes now when iaf says that it will have issues if facing war on two fronts. Well they got bigger problems to face now--*-if paf goes ahead and finds itself another 40---50 more upgraded F16's---the playing field has totally changed*.
> 
> And what it comes down to is----a fully integrated aircraft and weapons systems that your pilots are familiar with----you cannot put a price on that.
> 
> There is nothing like time saved in preparing for war----. If paf can get atleast 50 more of these aircraft----it would mean that they have turned the clock back by at least 5 to 8 years in their favour and put iaf in a quandry.



But will they go for them?

I am sure PAF will be more interested in brand new J-10Bs instead of upgraded F-16s when it comes to large quantity.

However if that happens it may create problem for us, but only for short time.

We may induct more MKIs and Super MKIs in that case.

The good thing the infra required for MKI is already in place and our plots are familiar with the plane so ordering more MKIs makes sense. Also expect faster induction of Rafales.

India may buy more Rafales off-the shelf in this case.


----------



## HRK

That Guy said:


> *PAF acquires F-16s from Jordan*
> 
> They have been modified into Air Defence Fighters (ADF) versions.
> PAF acquires F-16s from Jordan - thenews.com.pk



What is this sentence hinting about .... ??

F-16 is supposed to be more than an Interceptor Aircraft .....?? 

secondly should we assume that Pakistan has exercise option of 14 more F-16 from US .... ??

Any senior member .....

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## SQ8

sandy_3126 said:


> That is a big purchase, instant squadron purchase should raise some eyebrows in the neighborhood. This needs keen observation.
> 
> 
> 
> the problem is that MKi is not the only strike force that IAF will deploy, in 2-5 years, The force projection you envisage can be equally matched by air superiority packages identified other than Mki



It doubt if it will ever get to those numbers. It was always 80 F-16s and 150 JF-17s.. and that seems to be the goal entirely. 
The idea being to hold off and survive the first week.. while the whole background threats on tac nukes and diplomatic haranguing goes on.


----------



## MilSpec

Oscar said:


> It doubt if it will ever get to those numbers. It was always 80 F-16s and 150 JF-17s.. and that seems to be the goal entirely.
> The idea being to hold off and survive the first week.. while the whole background threats on tac nukes and diplomatic haranguing goes on.


This is super interesting, Jordan is the back room for US sales office... look like pakistan has secured a win here.... almost a masterstroke in the making here.... Look like GoI was caught napping..... now there will be the age old traditional knee jerk from India, I am guessing kremlin is opening few vodka's

Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## fatman17

EDA F-16's.


Jordan F-16B BLK 15 OCU AIRCRAFT
Jordan F-16B BLK 15 OCU AIRCRAFT
Jordan F-16B BLK 15 OCU AIRCRAFT
Jordan F-16B BLK 15 OCU AIRCRAFT
Jordan F-16A BLK 15 OCU AIRCRAFT
Jordan F-16A BLK 15 OCU AIRCRAFT
Jordan F-16A BLK 15 OCU AIRCRAFT
Jordan F-16A BLK 15 OCU AIRCRAFT
Jordan F-16A BLK 15 OCU AIRCRAFT
Jordan F-16A BLK 15 OCU AIRCRAFT
Jordan F-16A BLK 15 OCU AIRCRAFT
Jordan F-16A BLK 15 OCU AIRCRAFT
Jordan F-16A BLK 15 OCU AIRCRAFT
Jordan F-16A BLK 15 OCU AIRCRAFT
Jordan F-16A BLK 15 OCU AIRCRAFT
Jordan F-16A BLK 15 OCU AIRCRAFT
Jordan F100PW-200 JET ENGINE, SERIAL # 703785
Jordan F-16 F-16 BLOCK 15
Jordan F-16 F-16 BLOCK 15
Jordan F-16 F-16 BLOCK 15
Jordan F-16 F-16 BLOCK 15
Jordan F-16 F-16 BLOCK 15
Jordan F-16 F-16 BLOCK 15
Jordan F-16 F-16 BLOCK 15
Jordan F-16 F-16 BLOCK 15
Jordan F-16 F-16 BLOCK 15
Jordan F-16 F-16 BLOCK 15
Jordan F-16 F-16 BLOCK 15
Jordan F-16 F-16 BLOCK 15
Jordan F-16 F-16 BLOCK 15 80-0589
Jordan F-16 F-16 BLOCK 15
Jordan F-16 F-16 BLOCK 15
Jordan F-16 F-16 BLOCK 15
Jordan F-16 F-16 BLOCK 15



sandy_3126 said:


> This is super interesting, Jordan is the back room for US sales office... look like pakistan has secured a win here.... almost a masterstroke in the making here.... Look like GoI was caught napping..... now there will be the age old traditional knee jerk from India, I am guessing kremlin is opening few vodka's


 
come on 13 F-16's are scaring you...!

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## illusion8

Congratulations if true...it's been a while since any good news has come about defense procurement's from Pakistan.


----------



## MilSpec

fatman17 said:


> EDA F-16's.
> 
> come on 13 F-16's are scaring you...!


If I was in south block, Yes...but it's not the aircraft's, it's the process... It denotes a significant shift in US State dept policy, could it be India antagonizing US for last few months? there definately is a policy shift here , or may be I am reading more into it.... but if my suspicions are right, we are looking at an exciting 2014

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## HariPrasad

F 16 is a good Plane. Which Block?


----------



## SQ8

HRK said:


> What is this sentence hinting about .... ??
> 
> F-16 is supposed to be more than an Interceptor Aircraft .....??
> 
> secondly should we assume that Pakistan has exercise option of 14 more F-16 from US .... ??
> 
> Any senior member .....



These F-16s (even if they are ex-ANG ADF versions) are still identical in capabilites to the MLU the PAF has. 
The ADF modifications to the F-16 was the addition of more advanced IFF systems on the nose and a slightly different tail.Additionally these aircraft had a 148000 Candela spotlight on its nose to help with night identification of aircraft . When the F-16s were delivered to Jordan these IFF Antennas were removed and standard F-16 systems(which have the same capability but now smaller) were installed. 
One main difference from other F-16A models and the ADF was that they were factory wired for the usage of BVR weapons such as the Aim-7 and the AIM-120.

Reactions: Like Like:
9


----------



## MilSpec

Oscar said:


> It doubt if it will ever get to those numbers. It was always 80 F-16s and 150 JF-17s.. and that seems to be the goal entirely.
> The idea being to hold off and survive the first week.. while the whole background threats on tac nukes and diplomatic haranguing goes on.


smart thing for India is to not react... ignore this for now and not attract any attention to this.... If sense prevails I hope this will happen.


----------



## rockstarIN

Nice move by PAF indeed. Even if it is not MLUed, they can get it done from Turkey.!

IAF got a one more reason now to push MoD for Rafale deal signature..


----------



## illusion8

sandy_3126 said:


> If I was in south block, Yes...but it's not the aircraft's, it's the process... It denotes a significant shift in US State dept policy, could it be India antagonizing US for last few months? there definately is a policy shift here , or may be I am reading more into it.... but if my suspicions are right, we are looking at an exciting 2014



You are reading a bit much into it.


----------



## SQ8

sandy_3126 said:


> If I was in south block, Yes...but it's not the aircraft's, it's the process... It denotes a significant shift in US State dept policy, could it be India antagonizing US for last few months? there definately is a policy shift here , or may be I am reading more into it.... but if my suspicions are right, we are looking at an exciting 2014


I doubt a major policy shift as such. It is still the same "maintain the minimal balance" policy the US uses. Keep India's calculations on Pakistan less than a clean win and prevent a major conflict. Here, to avoid the usual protest and lobbyist.. they let Pakistan gets its equipment via a third country where India's lobby is not as effective.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Manticore

HariPrasad said:


> F 16 is a good Plane. Which Block?


PAF F-16 mlu specifications and 36 blk 52+ prospects | Page 17
^specs if these are the baseline adf [p.falcon1], however as I pointed out earlier, the news mentions adf+mlu indicating it might be from p.falcon2 blk40 series and not from p.falcon1


----------



## MilSpec

illusion8 said:


> You are reading a bit much into it.


could be and I hope you are right.... When deciding reactions... out of 10 people, one needs to look in the worst and remotest scenario, consider my opinion to be that one...

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## 45'22'

HariPrasad said:


> F 16 is a good Plane. Which Block?


block 15's upgraded to block 40

they may upgrade it further


----------



## HariPrasad

45'22' said:


> block 15's upgraded to block 40
> 
> they may upgrade it further




What is the capability?


----------



## Sinnerman108

Oscar said:


> Funny thing. Since Jordan had acquired F-16s from Belgium to update its fleet.. I find this whole thing highly suspect.
> Jordan Buys 20 F-16 MLU from Holland, Belgium



@Oscar 

How sure are we that the news is 100% correct ( regarding the purchase part ? ) 
Maybe we need some AC for near future usage and a friend was convinced by a bigger stake holder to do a friendly gesture ?


----------



## illusion8

sandy_3126 said:


> could be and I hope you are right.... When deciding reactions... out of 10 people, one needs to look in the worst and remotest scenario, consider my opinion to be that one...



We have done so much in the last couple of years without any kind of protest from the US that I believe the force equalizing factor has left the building a long while ago.


----------



## MilSpec

illusion8 said:


> We have done so much in the last couple of years without any kind of protest from the US that I believe the force equalizing factor has left the building a long while ago.


Something is amiss.... Lets see how this develops... lets just sit back and watch... Congrats to PAF and Govt of Pak for the purchase...


----------



## illusion8

sandy_3126 said:


> Something is amiss.... Lets see how this develops... lets just sit back and watch... Congrats to PAF and Govt of Pak for the purchase...



Let's first see if this news is actually true or not.


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

Another Mirage like love .
We have done the same with Sabers and Mirage and seems like PAF wont learn.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Kompromat

DANGER-ZONE said:


> Another Mirage like love .
> We have done the same with Sabers and Mirage and seems like PAF wont learn.



Who's paying for the *new* aircrafts then?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## nomi007

if this is true than congrats to all pakistani nice effort by paf
hope paf will get more f-16 from usa and increase number to 100+

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## JOEY TRIBIANI

great.


----------



## syedali73

DANGER-ZONE said:


> Another Mirage like love .
> We have done the same with Sabers and Mirage and seems like PAF wont learn.


I don't know why you are saying that. Both the Sabres and Mirages have served PAF extremely well. Probably you are referring to the sanction issue. The situation is not as bad as many think it is. Pakistan is in OK (not very good, I give you that) relations with the USA, and will remain for a foreseeable future. US might not require Pakistan as badly as Pakistan needs her, but Pakistan is still an important ally of the USA. USA is backing India to counter China, but to counter India, USA will use Pakistan. It will be naive to assume that USA will leave India unchecked. Under no circumstance will USA let India become an equal partner, never. Letting China occupy UNSC permanent seat has become a nightmare for the USA, and she will never let similar happen again. In fact, USA is still the largest donor, and helping Pakistan in various fields. That being said, we should minimize our reliance on the USA, and not only USA, also on China, or any foreign country for that matter. We need to do this because are no permanent friends or foes (allies and adversaries will be better words) in international politics.

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## SQ8

sandy_3126 said:


> could be and I hope you are right.... When deciding reactions... out of 10 people, one needs to look in the worst and remotest scenario, consider my opinion to be that one...



Playing the "ipha mastabra"??

Rumoured actual unit in Israel whose task to assume the opposite of what is understood convention. This is the unit on which the world war Z tenth man rule was put up.

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## MilSpec

Oscar said:


> Playing the "ipha mastabra"??
> 
> Rumoured actual unit in Israel whose task to assume the opposite of what is understood convention. This is the unit on which the world war Z tenth man rule was put up.


It's programmed when you are in a team which is in the forefront of product release worldwide  It's practiced but not discussed in every major brand-name albeit with not the same military precision....And I smiled when it came up in world war z the only difference being we call it PFMEA/DFMEA

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## SQ8

sandy_3126 said:


> It's programmed when you are in a team which is in the forefront of product release worldwide  It's practiced but not discussed in every major brand-name albeit with not the same military precision....And I smiled when it came up in world war z the only difference being we call it PFMEA/DFMEA



That is a natural process throughout IVTD.


----------



## Devil Soul

Good for PAF & Pakistan...


----------



## Missile

May be trade in? You never know.


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

ADF F-16s have different types of IFF antennas as compared to MLU.










Italian ADF Falcon





Jordanian





http://www.***************/pictures/data/4630/RJAF_F-16A_ADF_Jordan_AF_2.jpg
(Defence Talk link)

Reactions: Like Like:
12


----------



## FunkyGen

What we need right now is anti insurgency gear, like drones, killer robots (whatevah -_- india has em').
F 16's are not gonna be that efficient against the type of threats we are dealing with.
JUST my two cents, you can buy as many F-16's as you want.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Kompromat

FunkyGen said:


> What we need right now is anti insurgency gear, like drones, killer robots (whatevah -_- india has em').
> F 16's are not gonna be that efficient against the type of threats we are dealing with.
> JUST my two cents, you can buy as many F-16's as you want.



We are building UAVs and UCAVs. What we need now is UCAVs like Wing Loon.

F-16s are playing the key role in surgical strikes against the TTP.


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

MORE Jordanian ADF Falsons

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## HRK

Oscar said:


> These F-16s (even if they are ex-ANG ADF versions) are still identical in capabilites to the MLU the PAF has.
> The ADF modifications to the F-16 was the addition of more advanced IFF systems on the nose and a slightly different tail.Additionally these aircraft had a 148000 Candela spotlight on its nose to help with night identification of aircraft . When the F-16s were delivered to Jordan these IFF Antennas were removed and standard F-16 systems(which have the same capability but now smaller) were installed.
> One main difference from other F-16A models and the ADF was that they were factory wired for the usage of BVR weapons such as the Aim-7 and the AIM-120.



Sir your thoughts about third query .... ???

Option of 14 additional F-16 from US is still there, or we chose to exercise this via third country ..... ??


----------



## FunkyGen

Aeronaut said:


> We are building UAVs and UCAVs.


Just two missiles aren't enough to defeat the miscreants. 



Aeronaut said:


> What we need now is UCAVs like Wing Loon.


Nescom
KRL
SUPARCO
PAEC
And many other scientific organizations and we still have to depend on China??? Not to mention we have been developing UAV's for over a decade now, and we still don't have any good platform as far as offensive capabilities are concerned.



Aeronaut said:


> F-16s are playing the key role in surgical strikes against the TTP.


That's great! but my point is that we can (or could have) cut the costs by a huge margin by deploying such specific assets. Even if we are somehow, able to win this war without getting a major scratch, emphasis should be there for the development of counter insurgency specific assets.
As far as our conventional war is concerned these are a good buy.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## trident2010

AsianUnion said:


> Indians are shocked !!



I hope they are !! It will make things move much more quicker


----------



## monitor

Why Jordan is selling it ? are they are going to get any band new F-16

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Informant

sandy_3126 said:


> This is super interesting, Jordan is the back room for US sales office... look like pakistan has secured a win here.... almost a masterstroke in the making here.... Look like GoI was caught napping..... now there will be the age old traditional knee jerk from India, I am guessing kremlin is opening few vodka's



Ever wonder what the Ruskies and Yankees think about us? Man they must be laughing all the way to the bank.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## nangyale

monitor said:


> Why Jordan is selling it ? are they are going to get any band new F-16



If they need we can sell them some JF-17s or even better exchange some JF-17s for F-16s. 
It will be win win for both.


----------



## kaykay

nangyale said:


> If they need we can sell them some JF-17s or even better exchange some JF-17s for F-16s.
> It will be win win for both.


It doesn't make any sense. If they are selling older F-16s means they must want something better say Typhoon, F-16 block60, Rafale kinda aircraft.


----------



## BLACKEAGLE

Those are the oldest we have, block-15.


----------



## nangyale

kaykay said:


> It doesn't make any sense. If they are selling older F-16s means they must want something better say Typhoon, F-16 block60, Rafale kinda aircraft.


It doesn't make any sense at all from an Indian perspective.
But from Pakistan and Jordanian it does.
Pakistan need ADFs to replace the F-7s.
While Jordan needs light fighter/bombers and JF-17s fit the bill.


----------



## SQ8

HRK said:


> Sir your thoughts about third query .... ???
> 
> Option of 14 additional F-16 from US is still there, or we chose to exercise this via third country ..... ??


Depends on the costs.. if they are EDA and put through FMF.. without them carrying the baggage of Shakil Afridi or Nuclear inspections..they should be a good option.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## sathya

That's 


nangyale said:


> If they need we can sell them some JF-17s or even better exchange some JF-17s for F-16s.
> It will be win win for both.


that's bad for JF 17' business , coz those who want JF 17 will turn to used F 16

India should be thinking about Qatar mirage 2009 now . , 
But it's just costly I guess..


----------



## nangyale

sathya said:


> That's
> 
> that's bad for JF 17' business , coz those who want JF 17 will turn to used F 16
> 
> India should be thinking about Qatar mirage 2009 now . ,
> But it's just costly I guess..



Not bad for JF-17s at all.
Compare the prices of a new F-16 and JF-17 and you will understand. They fill two very different roles in PAF and it will be the same for any foreign buyer as well.
As far India is concerned M2K is a good answer, considering that the Rafale deal has stalled now.


----------



## rockstar08

great move by Paf , F-16s are always like first love for Paf, and it has so many room for up gradation, we should buy more F-16s and upgrade them to at least blk-40 and to blk 50/52 if possible , in limited budget its a very brilliant move from paf . and i agree with member who say we should at least have 100 F-16s in our inventory , cause i dont see any other 5th gen fighter in paf inventory in near future ... j-10 deal is already over ... better to start replacing f-7s by f-16s and Jf's .....

i have a question for some senior member , paf operates 63 f-16s but i read somewhere in this forum that all our F-16s are now upgraded to blk 50/52's , is that true ? ?


----------



## Luftwaffe

monitor said:


> Why Jordan is selling it ? are they are going to get any band new F-16


 


> Saudi Arabia, Jordan, RJAF and Eurofighter deal Nov 12, 2012
> 
> Source: Tactical Report - Saudi Arabia, Jordan, RJAF and Eurofighter deal
> 
> Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Britain are said to be holding contacts about the possibility of the Saudis providing a financial support for Jordan to buy the Eurofighter Typhoon for the Royal Jordanian Air Force (RJAF). The following 420-word report sheds light on the subject and tells what about the deal and what about the contacts underway. It also tells what about the Saudi reaction.


 
So perhaps in 3-4 Years RJAF starts to gets their brand new squadron of Typhoons.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## kaykay

nangyale said:


> It doesn't make any sense at all from an Indian perspective.
> But from Pakistan and Jordanian it does.
> Pakistan need ADFs to replace the F-7s.
> While Jordan needs light fighter/bombers and JF-17s fit the bill.


Jordan is in talk to buy Typhoon.
Tactical Report - Saudi Arabia, Jordan, RJAF and Eurofighter deal


----------



## SQ8

rockstar08 said:


> have a question for some senior member , paf operates 63 f-16s but i read somewhere in this forum that all our F-16s are now upgraded to blk 50/52's , is that true ? ?



In terms of avionics.. yes. The only way the Block 50/52s are superior to our older F-16s is their ability to carry their ECM systems internally.. and their range via the conformal fuel tanks. Other than that, the older F-16s and the newer F-16 block-52s carry identical avionics and weapons capabilities.

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## Imran Khan

so truth was deleted lolzzzzzzzzzzzzz i will again say open a junkyard . jordan got used f-16 from USA and you guys got 3rd hand junk from jordan kabaari nhi to kya customers ho 
?

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Luftwaffe

kaykay said:


> Jordan is in talk to buy Typhoon.
> Tactical Report - Saudi Arabia, Jordan, RJAF and Eurofighter deal


 
Already posted a post above yours do you even read other posts.


----------



## rockstar08

Oscar said:


> In terms of avionics.. yes. The only way the Block 50/52s are superior to our older F-16s is their ability to carry their ECM systems internally.. and their range via the conformal fuel tanks. Other than that, the older F-16s and the newer F-16 block-52s carry identical avionics and weapons capabilities.



thanks


----------



## Khan_patriot

Great news I hope we can use them to JDAM the Talibitches into oblivion......


----------



## Pakistanisage

cb4 said:


>







I have been saying this for a while that Pakistan should buy these used F-16 and upgrade them with MLU kits thru Turkey. These F-16 Block B were great WVR dogfight aircrafts and with the upgrade they can turn into a potent present day fighter. Normally , these used fighters can be purchased quite cheaply and even with the cost of upgrades they may cost Pakistan less than 15 million dollars per copy which is 10 million USD less than a JF-17 Block II but is just as potent , if not more.

Good job Pakistan Air Force. Get some more.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## syedali73

A quick question. Can CFTs be added to MLUs?


----------



## Surenas

Why would anyone want to buy 3rd hand planes?


----------



## Bilal.

Surenas said:


> Why would anyone want to buy 3rd hand planes?



because they are good enough to face off with 30 year old indian mirage 2000s and mig-29s in a very affordable way...



syedali73 said:


> A quick question. Can CFTs be added to MLUs?



No

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Munir

Here my post some time ago... Some people were laughing at me. I think we can now understand that there is a big difference between a car seller in USA and a..

just google munir Pakdef Jordan f16 and you will find the source...

post #21

Munir

Posted 08 April 2013 - 04:49 AM

am pretty sure there is kc130 on the wish list. Besides that 18 mlu packages and 18 ex jordan f16's. But let us wait and see.

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## Imran Khan

all of you forget one thing here age and usage of that birds


----------



## Munir

I misread 13 as 18 or the number of planes were lowered due to the trade we are going to do (swap F16-JF17). Maybe totally fabricated but we will see.


----------



## Bilal.

@Munir, any chance of execising the option for 18 block 52s?



Imran Khan said:


> all of you forget one thing here age and usage of that birds



They are saying the airframes has enough life for another 20 years.


----------



## Munir

Imran Khan said:


> all of you forget one thing here age and usage of that birds



Veteran sahib, A plane is not a car... You have still 3000 hours left to fly it as a plane just leaving factory... Every purza is replaced so one can use it as it is brand new. Surely some planes start falling down from the sky but is you do not train your pilots or stop using maintenance as it should be done then it is a thing everyone can predict. It is an high performance vehicle not a bike.

You are a veteran so how come everyone is so misreading?

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Luftwaffe

Bilal. said:


> any chance of execising the option for 18 block 52s?


 
Are you going to pay $3B...how good it would be to invest them in JF-17 you can get 4 squadrons!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Munir

Bilal. said:


> @Munir, any chance of execising the option for 18 block 52s?
> 
> 
> 
> They are saying the airframes has enough life for another 20 years.



I stopped sharing inside info. But you do know the price we have to pay for 18 brand new vehicles? I think you can predict the answer.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Surenas

What did Pakistan actually pay for these fighters?


----------



## Luftwaffe

Munir said:


> Veteran sahib, A plane is not a car... You have still 3000 hours left to fly it as a plane just leaving factory... Every purza is replaced so one can use it as it is brand new.
> You are a veteran so how come everyone is so misreading?


 
Those aircrafts have estimated 5000 hours each good enough for next 15 years.


----------



## Bilal.

Luftwaffe said:


> Are you going to pay $3B...how good it would be to invest them in JF-17 you can get 4 squadrons!



$3B??? you are saying its $166mil a piece... come on:|


----------



## TOPGUN

Outstanding news , very good move by PAF makes perfect sense can't wait to see pic's


----------



## Munir

Jordan has around 34 F5's to be replaced in next few years. They will go for a cheap option or eda... That does open up some links to Pakistani new trade... Sell JF17, deliver engineers, train pilots... Unless uncle wants to stop that and gives free F16 block42 or Saudi ruin the deal like we had with Egypt by providing billions to buy mig29... Everyone loves KSA... Trust me. You are so wrong.



TOPGUN said:


> Outstanding news , good very god move by PAF makes perfect sense



Long time no see  Everything ok?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Bilal.

Munir said:


> I stopped sharing inside info. But you do know the price we have to pay for 18 brand new vehicles? I think you can predict the answer.



10 may believe you other 10 may not. Why punish the ones who do?


----------



## Superboy

Good news. PAF needs to beef up its F-16 fleet.  F-16 and JF-17 form a hi low mix.


----------



## Imran Khan

Munir said:


> Veteran sahib, A plane is not a car... You have still 3000 hours left to fly it as a plane just leaving factory... Every purza is replaced so one can use it as it is brand new. Surely some planes start falling down from the sky but is you do not train your pilots or stop using maintenance as it should be done then it is a thing everyone can predict. It is an high performance vehicle not a bike.
> 
> You are a veteran so how come everyone is so misreading?


 dear sir my question is still there whats remain in 1979 bulit F-16 block 1s?

i am not die hard fan or f-16 lover so i can see we are going to wrong way. since 1979 to 1994 USAF used them and then since leased to RJAF till now . what abut newest airframes of RJAF made in 1980 1981 and inducted in 1982 and 1983 ? are not they older then our original block-15OCUs? BTW they started crash recently one down also if you have update boss.


----------



## Donatello

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Another 50 of these aircraft---putting the numbers at 125 + F16 puts the paf at numbers where it can give back to what it takes from the enemy---. People who understand the significance of time in a weapon spurchase can truly understand the importance of this deal.
> 
> Now if in the next 2 to 5 years---if the paf can find a 75--100 of these aircraft and have a strike force of 150--175 aircraft---it is a guarantee that you can write off iaf----.
> 
> At the most---iaf will only be able to deploy 60% of its su30 against paf in the begining---.
> 
> This procurement is a total game changer---paf don't need the J10B for the next 5 to 10 years. What a massive counter strike by the paf.
> 
> Awhile ago the question was brought up by members of u s congress---we are selling all these advance missile to our allies---what if they turned on us----well the truth is that their concerns were serious. the u s does have so much confidence intheir allies that the instance won't arise----secondly---their IFF transponder and their knowledge of the missile how it acts was the saving grace.
> 
> the answer was---the allies want what we have---if we don't sell it---they will go to the other party and use their weapons systems---which we don't know much about.
> 
> The myth of the kill switch has died its natural death.




I think finding another 25 would be relatively easy, to put f-16s in 5-6 Squadrons. But where would they come from? PAF should keep asking USA for EDA ones, meanwhile look for any European users as well.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Pakistanisage

cb4 said:


> I don't understand why Jordan would want to sell them. They are still flying old F-5s. Why not get rid of those first ?






There is no market for old F-5's. There is a whole generational difference between F-5's and F=16's. First F-5 came out in 1959 while the first F-16 came out in 1974.


----------



## Donatello

Munir said:


> Jordan has around 34 F5's to be replaced in next few years. They will go for a cheap option or eda... That does open up some links to Pakistani new trade... Sell JF17, deliver engineers, train pilots... Unless uncle wants to stop that and gives free F16 block42 or Saudi ruin the deal like we had with Egypt by providing billions to buy mig29... Everyone loves KSA... Trust me. You are so wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> Long time no see  Everything ok?



Munir,

So are more MLU F-16s a possibility for PAF?


----------



## Munir

Imran Khan said:


> dear sir my question is still there whats remain in 1979 bulit F-16 block 1s?
> 
> i am not die hard fan or f-16 lover so i can see we are going to wrong way. since 1979 to 1994 USAF used them and then since leased to RJAF till now . what abut newest airframes of RJAF made in 1980 1981 and inducted in 1982 and 1983 ? are not they older then our original block-15OCUs? BTW they started crash recently one down also if you have update boss.



Sir ji, There are no block 1 exported. Block 15 and Block 15+ (pakistan specific the first with bvr option). The block15 are all blu 3 or better. I agree that the pre Jordan users were not using the planes with care but now you have a full squadron to be trained so it can move on to a better plane in, let say, 4-5 years. The jump from thus plane to a newer plane is a lot easier then jumping from f7/mirage to the next generation now to come... We can absorb it like...



Donatello said:


> Munir,
> 
> So are more MLU F-16s a possibility for PAF?



If the price is right... And we are a champion in getting the most with the least...

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Luftwaffe

Bilal. said:


> $3B??? you are saying its $166mil a piece... come on:|


 
Complete life time support/maintenance, spares Kits etc etc. If not 3B it can cost you well around 2B for 18...we have already received F-16s for a higher price because we had no choice but it was also need of the hour...

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Imran Khan

Munir said:


> Sir ji, There are no block 1 exported. Block 15 and Block 15+ (pakistan specific the first with bvr option). The block15 are all blu 3 or better. I agree that the pre Jordan users were not using the planes with care but now you have a full squadron to be trained so it can move on to a better plane in, let say, 4-5 years. The jump from thus plane to a newer plane is a lot easier then jumping from f7/mirage to the next generation now to come... We can absorb it like...
> 
> 
> .



i will only agree if you use words stop gap sir i can see what USAF and BAF RNAF did to them and 4 pages of their history and laughing on me . no they are not block 20 all most of them are block1 and block 5-10 boss you forget they got used from west not brand new please have a look . and yes we still don't know s.numbers of those which coming to pakistan 

Past and current F-16 airframes assigned to RJAF 1 sqn :: F-16.net


----------



## Bilal.

Munir said:


> If the price is right... And we are a champion in getting the most with the least...



So we are on going to do the same as we did with mirages? Hunt for available older blocks and upgrade them?



Luftwaffe said:


> Complete life time support/maintenance, spares Kits etc etc. If not 3B it can cost you well around 2B for 18...we have already received F-16s for a higher price because we had no choice but it was also need of the hour...



True, should be around $1.5B or so... probably not worth it, now that we do have a choice to go for JF-17s...


----------



## Luftwaffe

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Gentlemen----PAF JUST GOT US A SQDRN OF " J10B's "----AMAZING ISN'T IT----we were supposedly thinking of getting them if we had the money.
> 
> It is called going with the flow----. Pakistan would have been in talks for these plane for a little while now. A 20 mil plane gives you the same bang for the 40 mil plane---you don't even need to slow down your stride to get from one to the other.
> 
> No integration issues either----. Another 2 to 3 sqdrn's of similar F16's----and paf has narrowed the gap dramatically.
> 
> This purchase confirms what I have stated earlier----there are no KILL SWITCHES IN THE F 16's


 
Rest in peace J-10 rest in peace, to me it is clear PAF is not interested a bit in J-10 their focus is JF-17s and F-16s and later on any Next Gen.



Bilal. said:


> So we are on going to do the same as we did with mirages? Hunt for available older blocks and upgrade them?
> 
> True, should be around $1.5B or so... probably not worth it, now that we do have a choice to go for JF-17s...


 
PAF always wanted 77-90 F-16s Numbers so these 13 and 14 from US could be the last F-16s to come to Pakistan.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Bilal.

Luftwaffe said:


> PAF always wanted 77-90 F-16s Numbers so these 13 and 14 from US could be the last F-16s to come to Pakistan.



actually, orginally they were looking for close to 110 but first sanctions and later financial situation did not allow it...


----------



## Luftwaffe

Bilal. said:


> actually, orginally they were looking for close to 110 but first sanctions and later financial situation did not allow it...


 
Did financial situation ever got better? it was a big mistake to slash 77 F-16s in 2005 by mushrraf.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## VCheng

MastanKhan said:


> ............
> This purchase confirms what I have stated earlier----there are no KILL SWITCHES IN THE F 16's
> ........................



How does this purchase "confirm" a lack of geofencing or other controls?

It would be better to say that the limitations of the new purchase are just as acceptable to PAF as limits on the old purchases of F-16s, wouldn't you say?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Stealth

Pakistan should maintain 100 F16s fleet till than J31 defintly fully loaded with Chinese Engine. IMO PAkistan should move directly on J31. 100 - 120 F16s along with J31 will be aggressive command....


----------



## Superboy

IMO 18 more F-16 should be acquired to boost PAF's F-16 fleet to at least 100.


----------



## Luftwaffe

VCheng said:


> How does this purchase "confirm" a lack of geofencing or other controls?
> 
> It would be better to say that the limitations of the new purchase are just as acceptable to PAF as limits on the old purchases of F-16s, wouldn't you say?


 
What other limitations on the old purchases of F-16s specifically list them in detail...and don't even for a sec believe that PAF would not use the against adversary on the East side of the fence just because US said so...the machine is meant to be used and tested against... US would want to see their best equipment used in such a scenario...

If there were certain limitations US would have sold AIM-120 to egypt without israel/US being worried.


----------



## Jade

If Pakistan is going for second hand F16, it says that a about Chinese planes

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Luftwaffe

Jade said:


> If Pakistan is going for second hand F16, it says that a about Chinese planes


 
Not at all, the infrastructure is in place for F-16s rest you figure it out. Last JF-17 is a new plane let PAF deal with it before bringing in a new Type it is a hassle now stop being stupid. With almost 6000 posts you should learn something.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Jade

Luftwaffe said:


> Not at all, the infrastructure is in place for F-16s rest you figure it out. Last JF-17 is a new plane let PAF deal with it before brining in a new Type it is a hassle now stop being stupid.



That is how you think. There is also a different way of interpreting this on why Pakistan brought second hand F-16


----------



## Manticore

Jade said:


> If Pakistan is going for second hand F16, it says that a about Chinese planes


The range and payload of f16s are greater than jf17 - quick delivery and no pilot training required at half the price of j10 says a lot for paf strategy



Jade said:


> That is how you think. There is also a different way of interpreting this on why Pakistan brought second hand F-16


funny thing is out of the 5mmrca contenders , our jft newer blocks would be closer to gripen specs and our f16s might end up near f16IN configuration [like south korea] --- at less cost --- while the mmrca deal is still lingering

Reactions: Like Like:
9


----------



## Luftwaffe

Jade said:


> That is how you think. There is also a different way of interpreting this on why Pakistan brought second hand F-16


 
There is no different way since you did never check J-10s or JF-17s you are in no position to comment on quality control and other technical details except for what light info is available online. The different interpretation is PAF always wanted 70+ to 90. Rest there is no problem inducting them everything is in place for the last 30 years.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Jade

Manticore said:


> The range and payload of f16s are greater than jf17 - quick delivery and no pilot training required at half the price of j10 says a lot for paf strategy



That is right f16 has quicker delivery and moreover a proven plane. It says a lot about F16's importance to PAF

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## VCheng

Luftwaffe said:


> What other limitations on the old purchases of F-16s specifically list them in detail...and don't even for a sec believe that PAF would not use the against adversary on the East side of the fence just because US said so...the machine is meant to be used and tested against... US would want to see their best equipment used in such a scenario...
> 
> If there were certain limitations US would have sold AIM-120 to egypt without israel/US being worried.



The F-16 are a great choice for PAF, no doubt.


----------



## Jade

Manticore said:


> The range and payload of f16s are greater than jf17 - quick delivery and no pilot training required at half the price of j10 says a lot for paf strategy
> 
> 
> funny thing is out of the 5mmrca contenders , our jft newer blocks would be closer to gripen specs and our f16s might end up near f16IN configuration [like south korea] --- at less cost --- while the mmrca deal is still lingering



India certainly has overwhelming conventional military superiority over Pakistan. As far I am concerned MMRCA or lack of it will have very marginal effect on India's conventional military superiority over Pakistan. 

MMRCA is more to do with China.


----------



## Bilal.

Luftwaffe said:


> Did financial situation ever got better? it was a big mistake to slash 77 F-16s in 2005 by mushrraf.



The country was faced with the aftermath of a massive earthquake, there was no other choice. We couldn'teven go for the full 36 of the revised order thanks to calamities as in earthquake, 2 massive floods, power shortage and Zardari

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Manticore

Jade said:


> MMRCA is more to do with China.


says a lot about mki 

I can troll too you know .. once a year 
-------------
lets not make it a vs india thread

Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## SQ8

Jade said:


> That is how you think. There is also a different way of interpreting this on why Pakistan brought second hand F-16



Nope, There is no other way. Pakistan(like India, BD, UK) follows a planning principle by its air staff. Something put into what is called an Air Staff Requirement. Till 2008.. the requiremnt included a mainstay air defence fighter and light strike support to replace the role of the F-7 and Mirage fleet.. that is known as the JF-17 and there was a requirement for 150 of these. The next requirement was the primary air interdiction and offensive counter air fighter to carry out the critical punches and strikes.. that is the F-16.. and there was a requirement for 60 of these. Finally , there was the air superiority, deep strike element.. that was to be the FC-20.At the light end for local interceptions was to be the F-7PG while the last ROSE-III Mirages would soldier one further(as they brilliant night attack birds)

Now with the economy going bust.. and money short.. the PAF decided that since the role envisaged for the FC-20 could be covered to most extents by the F-16s.. it might as well junk the idea and wait for a better option.. in the meantime.. it decided to increase the F-16 fleet to 80 aircraft... while going for an overall force reduction. Any actual war with India seems to not be in the cards and at most border skirmishes or a one day "battle" might be the order. Unless economic times improved, the PAF found itself happy with a planned size of 300 combat aircraft. 
So any other demeaning reason that some of our Indian friends could come up with is invalid here. Quite simply, the PAF has been flying the F-16 for over 30 years. It knows EXACTLY how to use it, how to fix it and how to fly and fight with it in the most effective manner in its requirement. The timeframe for the PAF to learn on new F-16s is 1/20th the time it would take to learn on a new fighter such as the J-10. So when you are saving on costs in every sphere.. while still getting a very potent system. Its dumb not to go for it.

Reactions: Positive Rating Positive Rating:
2 | Like Like:
16


----------



## Peaceful Civilian

Stealth said:


> Pakistan should maintain 100 F16s fleet till than J31 defintly fully loaded with Chinese Engine. IMO PAkistan should move directly on J31. 100 - 120 F16s along with J31 will be aggressive command....


I think J31 will take time, may be deal not possible before 2023 because long process of prototypes, then time of MOU, process of negotiation and final agreement, and then here comes 2025 and delivery of first squadron in 2028-30

For stop gap, we should get at-least 3 squadron of J10b and F16s.



Our aim for 2020 should be

125 F16 block 52/50s
150 JF17
50 j10b 

Or
150 F16 block 52/50s
175 Jf17

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Edevelop

Jade said:


> If Pakistan is going for second hand F16, it says that a about Chinese planes



WTF ?

Buying F-16 doesn't stop JF-17's production. In fact 50 have already been built and in total we will be having around 250.

Its not just the Air Force, but also the Army and Navy that has a combination of Domestic, American and Chinese Weapons


----------



## Donatello

Oscar said:


> Nope, There is no other way. Pakistan(like India, BD, UK) follows a planning principle by its air staff. Something put into what is called an Air Staff Requirement. Till 2008.. the requiremnt included a mainstay air defence fighter and light strike support to replace the role of the F-7 and Mirage fleet.. that is known as the JF-17 and there was a requirement for 150 of these. The next requirement was the primary air interdiction and offensive counter air fighter to carry out the critical punches and strikes.. that is the F-16.. and there was a requirement for 60 of these. Finally , there was the air superiority, deep strike element.. that was to be the FC-20.At the light end for local interceptions was to be the F-7PG while the last ROSE-III Mirages would soldier one further(as they brilliant night attack birds)
> 
> Now with the economy going bust.. and money short.. the PAF decided that since the role envisaged for the FC-20 could be covered to most extents by the F-16s.. it might as well junk the idea and wait for a better option.. in the meantime.. it decided to increase the F-16 fleet to 80 aircraft... while going for an overall force reduction. Any actual war with India seems to not be in the cards and at most border skirmishes or a one day "battle" might be the order. Unless economic times improved, the PAF found itself happy with a planned size of 300 combat aircraft.
> So any other demeaning reason that some of our Indian friends could come up with is invalid here. Quite simply, the PAF has been flying the F-16 for over 30 years. It knows EXACTLY how to use it, how to fix it and how to fly and fight with it in the most effective manner in its requirement. The timeframe for the PAF to learn on new F-16s is 1/20th the time it would take to learn on a new fighter such as the J-10. So when you are saving on costs in every sphere.. while still getting a very potent system. Its dumb not to go for it.



I didn't even bother to reply to his non-sense 'analysis'.......same old rhetoric by Indian members. They have to post something no matter what. That's why i reported his posts to the mods/admin.


Now, where would all these F-16s be placed? Confining a load of them to just one air base seems a bit undermining. I am assuming 76 F-16s would be for a total of 4 squadrons at 19 a/c each?


----------



## VCheng

Donatello said:


> ..........
> Now, *where would all these F-16s be placed?* Confining a load of them to just one air base seems a bit undermining. I am assuming 76 F-16s would be for a total of 4 squadrons at 19 a/c each?



Those placements would be subject to mutually agreed upon controls between Pakistan and USA.


----------



## Manticore

VCheng said:


> Those placements would be subject to mutually agreed upon controls between Pakistan and USA.


kindly specify the controls and post credible links. Do these controls hamper war doctrine ?


VCheng said:


> How does this purchase "confirm" a lack of geofencing or other controls?
> 
> It would be better to say that the limitations of the new purchase are just as acceptable to PAF as limits on the old purchases of F-16s, wouldn't you say?



kindly specify the limitations and post credible links. Do these limitations hamper war doctrine ?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## VCheng

Manticore said:


> ..............
> 
> kindly specify the limitations and post credible links. Do these controls hamper war doctrine ?



Please refer to previous posts between Chogy and me a while ago. I will not be able to add any more information.


*Do these controls hamper war doctrine? No. *

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Manticore

VCheng said:


> Please refer to previous posts between Chogy and me a while ago. I will not be able to add any more information.
> 
> 
> *Do these controls hamper war doctrine? No. *


Its been at least 2 years since I saw chogy here -- so finding such old posts would'nt be easy


----------



## Luftwaffe

VCheng said:


> The F-16 are a great choice for PAF, no doubt.


 
Without any doubts. If PAF had lots of funds you would have seen F-16s all over Pak like sabzi mandi.



Donatello said:


> I didn't even bother to reply to his non-sense 'analysis'.......same old rhetoric by Indian members. They have to post something no matter what. That's why i reported his posts to the mods/admin.
> 
> 
> Now, where would all these F-16s be placed? Confining a load of them to just one air base seems a bit undermining. I am assuming 76 F-16s would be for a total of 4 squadrons at 19 a/c each?


 
He is currently trolling on a BD Forex rises Thread.


----------



## HRK

VCheng said:


> Those placements would be subject to mutually agreed upon controls between Pakistan and USA.





VCheng said:


> Please refer to previous posts between Chogy and me a while ago. I will not be able to add any more information.
> *Do these controls hamper war doctrine? No. *



Jacobabad Air base .... ??


----------



## Kompromat

Surenas said:


> What did Pakistan actually pay for these fighters?



Few theories.

* These are F-16s the US owed us.
* We have paid for them
* There is a barter going on for Jf-17s in return as payment.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## VCheng

Manticore said:


> Its been at least 2 years since I saw chogy here -- so finding such old posts would'nt be easy




These posts might help you:



Chogy said:


> *The value added is very high. I believe we both understand. But I'll leave it at this* - I think it is irresponsible to promulgate the notion of a kill switch, because that is what 98% of readers think it is. And given that *there is no way to openly discuss the specifics without an OPSEC violation*, then the less-than-accurate impression (kill switch) is what people are going to take from it.
> 
> It is more accurate to say something like this: *"There is technology in these systems that is extremely sensitive that will probably remain in control of the U.S. That does not mean the weapons will not work. The GOP and the PAF were entirely aware of these limitations, yet were happy to add these jets to their inventory, regardless. That should say something - namely, even in a worst-case scenario, the aircraft would remain important and effective assets."*





VCheng said:


> I can accept that. Thank you!
> 
> *I will say no more on this topic*.





Chogy said:


> *Sounds good,* Amigo!





VCheng said:


> *Roger that! *

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Luftwaffe

Aeronaut said:


> Few theories.
> 
> * These are F-16s the US owed us.
> * We have paid for them
> * There is a barter going on for Jf-17s in return as payment.


 
I still don't believe RJAF have 180 AMRAAMs [don't believe in wiki] the last authentic figure was around 57-60. So they probably are looking for BVRs and another potential platform could it either be KAI FA-50 or JF-17s but these are just speculations also they are interested in Typhoons.


----------



## VCheng

Manticore said:


> Its been at least 2 years since I saw chogy here -- so finding such old posts would'nt be easy



One more ........




VCheng said:


> *The MPS/DTC/system software for the F-16PK is unique, Chogy, and exactly as I have described it.* I have my own sources for basing my comments.
> 
> However, *since I cannot go into exacting details here, I will publicly accept your premise*, and leave mine as unproved. Proving it on PDF to stroke my own false ego is something that I do not wish to do. Fair enough?
> 
> I will however reiterate that *the "sandbox" and the "toys" in said "sandbox" are managed very carefully indeed, in a variety of ways, and for a number of reasons. The personnel involved, including the pilot, cannot interfere with or even detect this "adult supervision".*
> 
> What you describe is correct, but *using all of that MPS data and particularly its execution during the mission relies on many other software controls. Sure, the baseline operation of the stock airplane/avionics will go on, but what is the value added role of the precision systems for navigation/targeting/communication/ECM etc. during modern combat?* You tell me.



OPSEC violations are serious business, so let me stop right here without adding anything to what has already been said.

======================================

The F-16 is a great choice for PAF, no doubt.


----------



## BATMAN

Imran Khan said:


> all of you forget one thing here age and usage of that birds



No doubt, subject F-16's are too old.... they were given to RJAF out of a US junk yard.
I wonder, how PAF would keep them airworthy........ spares!


----------



## rockstar08

Kyun ke F-16 Reliable hai


----------



## Manticore

*Pakistan Continues Buying Surplus F-16s – Adding 13 from Jordan*
Defense Updateakistan Continues Buying Surplus F-16s - Adding 13 from Jordan - Defense Update:
*SHARE THIS POST*



*The Pakistani Air Force (PAF) has acquired a squadron of F-16 multi-role fighter aircraft from Jordan. The early production Block-15 fighter jets will be inducted inducted into the service in March 2014, next month, Pakistan’sTheNews reports.*






Two Royal Jordanian Air Force F-16s fly alongside a U.S. Air Force KC-135 Stratotanker aircraft while waiting to connect for fuel over Jordan. Photo: US Air Force

Of the fighters acquired from the Royal Jordanian Air Force, 12 of the aircraft are single seaters A models and one is a twin-seat F-16B. Jordan has recently acquired 15 similar aircraft – F-16A/B MLU from the Dutch Air Force, and expect these aircraft to be delivered in 2015. The aircraft Pakistan is receiving have also undergone MLU providing service and are cleared for 20 years operations or 3,000 flight hours on average. Pakistan has already received a number of F-16s 

Pakistan has been contemplating to acquire more used planes for the PAF from other countries while the induction of new production JF-17 Thunder continues. The JF-17 is a co-production of Pakistan and China.

Through the upgrade process carried out at the US Air Force Ogden Air Logistics Centre, structural upgrades were performed to extend the aircraft life from the designed 4,000 to 8,000 hours flying time. Other modifications include changes to the engine bay, to receive the upgraded Pratt and Whitney F100-220E engine. Most of Pakistan’s F-16s are of early generation A/B models, acquired from US surplus and upgraded through MLU. Some were delivered free of charge by the US Government. The new acquisition will bring the Pakistani Air Force F-16 fleet to 76. Only 20 are of more modern make, namely F-16C and F-16C/D Block 52.





Pakistan Air Force from left to right: JF-17, F-16, F-7, A-5C and Mirage 5. Photo:PAFwallpapers.com

Through the years Pakistan has been a keen ‘collector’ of Dassault Mirage III/V fighter jets. Between 1967 and 1982 Islamabad bought 66 new Mirage III/V, but through the 1990s ‘collected’ over 130 of the fighters in the surplus market, from the French, Australian and Lebanese air forces. Many of these were modernized through the three phases ROSE program, improving avionics, weaponry and operational capabilities, associated with special missions, special weapons and night capabilities. The F-16, while adding many advanced capabilities, is not fulfilling many of these capabilities, therefore, it can replace the A-5C and F-7s in service, but not the Mirages.

Buying second hand fighters is one way for the Pakistani Air Force to manage the financial pressure that has limited its modernization since 2007. The acquisition of the JF-17 Thunder remains the single, highest priority, for which Islamabad secured a Chinese loan to keep production on track at an annual rate of 18 aircraft per year with 50 (Block I) jets in service. Defense News reported. Another significant investment was the acquisition of four Saab2000 Erieye early warning and control (AEW&C) aircraft for US$1 billion, the last of those aircraft was delivered in 2010. (It is unclear how many of these are operational, one of the four was reportedly damaged or destroyed in August 2012 by a Taliban attack on the Kamra air base.)

Production of 50 Thunders of the second block began in December 2013. The Thunder Block II has improved avionics, weapons load and carriage capability, a data link and an electronic warfare suite, plus an in-flight refueling capability. With these enhancements the cost of the Thunder has increased from US$15 million to $25 million, according to Dawn. Pakistan’s requirement is for up to 250 planes to the F-7 and, eventually, Mirage III/5 fighter aircraft currently in service. The Thunder has already replaced the A-5C Fantan strike fighter with two squadrons.

While Pakistan is seeking relative parity with India, the PAF currently has no counterpart for India’s Su-30MKI, nor the future Rafale, (when and if the MMRCA is to be fielded). Pakistan has been considering buying Chinese FC-20 (J10) fighter planes they considered could be a fair match to the Rafale. However, it is now considered that Thunder Block III and more upgrades to their F-16s, bringing the Falcons to the Block52 level could satisfy the PAF requirements for the near term.

Pakistan and China are also working on a combat-capable, two-seat conversion trainer variant of the Thunder, which would meet Pakistan Air Force requirements for special missions and night attack, as well as improve export sales prospects for the aircraft. Further improvements are planned for the Block III, a version which is currently on paper, but could enter design phase in 2016.





PAF F-16A block 15 from 11 sqn is seen landing at Konya AB during Anatolian Eagle 2007. (TuAF photo)

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## waz

Great news and gives us even more capability.

The PAF wiki page should show this news soon.

List of aircraft of the Pakistan Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Solomon2

Very clever. The F-16s sold to Jordan in the late 70s or early 80s were degraded-performance models: they did not have the powerful F-100 engines nor the most up to date avionics. That was to assure Congress that Israel would retain air superiority in the region, the promise the U.S. made to keep Israel from conquering Damascus in the 1973 war.

Consequently the wear on their airframes is probably much less than "normal" F-16s of comparable age. With upgraded avionics and engines, I imagine these planes are now just as good as F-16s built in the 1990s.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Manticore

how many f16s have returned from mlu?


----------



## nangyale

It's also interesting to note that 12 out of 13 are single seat variants, keeping in mind that the majority received from the US EDA were B variants.


----------



## SQ8

Solomon2 said:


> Very clever. The F-16s sold to Jordan in the late 70s or early 80s were degraded-performance models: they did not have the powerful F-100 engines nor the most up to date avionics. That was to assure Congress that Israel would retain air superiority in the region, the promise the U.S. made to keep Israel from conquering Damascus in the 1973 war.
> 
> Consequently the wear on their airframes is probably much less than "normal" F-16s of comparable age. With upgraded avionics and engines, I imagine these planes are now just as good as F-16s built in the 1990s.


Those F-16s were not the ones sold either. As they never went through the Ogden center. Jordan augmented its older F-16 fleet with F-16 ADF models and European MLUs from Belgium,Denmark and the Netherlands. There is no indication on what has been sold to Pakistan but the repeated mention of the Ogden center suggest the F-16 ADF variants purchased by Jordan in 1996.
These were hardly "degraded" versions.. 

Also, your contention that the F-16s sold to Jordan did not have F-100 engines is also folly. Please read up.. the F-100 was standard in all F-16s including the one sold to Egypt and Jordan. Israel actually pushed the program as it earned the possibility of further goodwill from it after the 1994 peace accord.

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## MastanKhan

sandy_3126 said:


> That is a big purchase, instant squadron purchase should raise some eyebrows in the neighborhood. This needs keen observation.
> 
> 
> 
> the problem is that MKi is not the only strike force that IAF will deploy, in 2-5 years, The force projection you envisage can be equally matched by air superiority packages identified other than Mki


Hi,

See---we are not worried about " the equally matched " part----that is where we want to stay----in the same hemisphere.

What we are worried about was where you could just simply smash us. I have always stated---if we made our committment to buy F16's after the sanctions---then we should have gone ahead and become a truly committed F16 air force----in a 30 % ---70 % proportion of new and used / mlu'd aircraft would give paf the ultimate bang for the buck.


J10B is a 5 to 10 years project once you have a couple of sqdrn's of that aircraft----which means that it would take you that much time for integration---develop an operational manual and get enough pilots upto date on this aircraft to perform on the same level as that of their current F 16 pilots.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## MastanKhan

sandy_3126 said:


> , I am guessing kremlin is opening few vodka's


 
Hi,

And caviar too---It is a come to DADDY moment for russia.


----------



## MastanKhan

VCheng said:


> How does this purchase "confirm" a lack of geofencing or other controls?
> 
> It would be better to say that the limitations of the new purchase are just as acceptable to PAF as limits on the old purchases of F-16s, wouldn't you say?


 
Hi,

Thank you--would it be prudent to say that all the air forces operating the F 16's other than the u s---accept those limits.

What I am happy about is that the " KILL SWITCH PROPAGANDA BRIGADE " is going to eat dust---that dust is going to be flying off the spinning wheels of a car that the car salesman is taking for a test drive and right into their mouths.

I have never been so excited by any news for the air force as this one. This is truly a coupe de grace.


----------



## VCheng

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thank you--would it be prudent to say that *all the air forces operating the F 16's other than the u s*---accept those limits.
> 
> .........



Those "limits" are set at different levels for each airforce.


----------



## Bratva

Significantly, the US has acceded to persistent Pak request for AMRAAM air-to-air missiles, sidewinder missiles and M-270 multiple launch rocket systems which fall in the category of weapons which are banned from being supplied to Pakistan by any European country or the US. In order to effect the supply of AMRAAM advanced air to air missiles, the US has worked a mechanism for handing over significant numbers of these missiles to Pakistan and Jordan even though they do not fit any counter-terrorism role. The modus operandi would be to do the paper work in a manner that they indicate sale of these weapons to Jordan (or Jordan being shown as the user country) while the missiles would be supplied to Pakistan. Likewise, the latest version of sidewinder air to air missiles (AIM9X), while not falling into the category of anti-terror weapon would be declared as meant for Jordan while it would actually be supplied to the PAF. The M270 multiple launch rocket system, around 150 of which are presently deployed in Afghanistan, would form part of the inventory of supplies to Pakistan through Jordan.


US Pakistan Arms Deal | neurope.eu

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## nangyale

mafiya said:


> Significantly, the US has acceded to persistent Pak request for AMRAAM air-to-air missiles, sidewinder missiles and M-270 multiple launch rocket systems which fall in the category of weapons which are banned from being supplied to Pakistan by any European country or the US. In order to effect the supply of AMRAAM advanced air to air missiles, the US has worked a mechanism for handing over significant numbers of these missiles to Pakistan and Jordan even though they do not fit any counter-terrorism role. The modus operandi would be to do the paper work in a manner that they indicate sale of these weapons to Jordan (or Jordan being shown as the user country) while the missiles would be supplied to Pakistan. *Likewise, the latest version of sidewinder air to air missiles (AIM9X), while not falling into the category of anti-terror weapon would be declared as meant for Jordan while it would actually be supplied to the PAF*. The M270 multiple launch rocket system, around 150 of which are presently deployed in Afghanistan, would form part of the inventory of supplies to Pakistan through Jordan.
> 
> 
> US Pakistan Arms Deal | neurope.eu



That is very exciting if true. 
Can anyone shed some more light on the delivery of AIM 9X to Pakistan. I really want to know when and how many?


----------



## Last Samuri

Cost effective and stil very useful fighters the f16...

Paf wil get at least 10 and 15 years out of these fighters. They are the best in paf in overall capability..even ahead of the new but stil infant unproven unused thunder.

73 f16s sounds a lot better than forty.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## SHAMK9

When will these jets be seen bombarding talibastards?


----------



## VCheng

mafiya said:


> Significantly, the US has acceded to persistent Pak request for AMRAAM air-to-air missiles, sidewinder missiles and M-270 multiple launch rocket systems which fall in *the category of weapons which are banned from being supplied to Pakistan by any European country or the US. In order to effect the supply of AMRAAM advanced air to air missiles, the US has worked a mechanism for handing over significant numbers of these missiles to Pakistan and Jordan even though they do not fit any counter-terrorism role. The modus operandi would be to do the paper work in a manner that they indicate sale of these weapons to Jordan (or Jordan being shown as the user country) while the missiles would be supplied to Pakistan.* Likewise, the latest version of sidewinder air to air missiles (AIM9X), while not falling into the category of anti-terror weapon would be declared as meant for Jordan while it would actually be supplied to the PAF. The M270 multiple launch rocket system, around 150 of which are presently deployed in Afghanistan, would form part of the inventory of supplies to Pakistan through Jordan.
> 
> 
> US Pakistan Arms Deal | neurope.eu



That would be a direct violation of US laws and therefore unlikely.


----------



## Darth Vader

Aeronaut said:


> Destination Norway
> 
> 
> 
> More New Block-52s will be purchased too in small numbers.


not till RNoAF gets f 35 or some other bird


----------



## That Guy

Luftwaffe said:


> the Block 40/42 is the improved all-day/all-weather strike variant equipped with LANTRIN pod; also unofficially designated the F-16CG/DG, the night capability gave rise to the name "Night Falcons". This block features strengthened and lengthened undercarriage for LANTIRN pods, an improved radar, and a GPS receiver. From 2002, the Block 40/42 increased the weapon range available to the aircraft including JDAM, AGM-154 JSOW, Wind-Corrected Munitions Dispense WCMD and the enhanced EGBU-27 Paveway "bunker-buster" [for USAF]. Also incorporated in this block was the addition of cockpit lighting systems compatible with Aviator's Night Vision Imaging System ANVIS equipment..Block 40/42's APG-68(V)1
> 
> F-16 Versions - F-16C/D :: F-16.net
> 
> General Dynamics F-16C/D Block 40/42 Fighting Falcon
> 
> They've got more than enough punch for PAF.


Okay, but that still doesn't mean they won't be upgraded. They got more than enough punch for now, but they need to be as future proof as possible.


----------



## TOPGUN

Munir said:


> Jordan has around 34 F5's to be replaced in next few years. They will go for a cheap option or eda... That does open up some links to Pakistani new trade... Sell JF17, deliver engineers, train pilots... Unless uncle wants to stop that and gives free F16 block42 or Saudi ruin the deal like we had with Egypt by providing billions to buy mig29... Everyone loves KSA... Trust me. You are so wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> Long time no see  Everything ok?




Hello Munir bro, hru ? hope you and the family are well , yes I been around but not as much yes every thing is fine with the grace of ALLAH .


----------



## Dazzler

they use a mix fleet of ADF and MLUs, i suspect paf is getting the latter.

F-16 Air Forces - Jordan :: F-16.net


----------



## Donatello

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thank you--would it be prudent to say that all the air forces operating the F 16's other than the u s---accept those limits.
> 
> What I am happy about is that the " KILL SWITCH PROPAGANDA BRIGADE " is going to eat dust---that dust is going to be flying off the spinning wheels of a car that the car salesman is taking for a test drive and right into their mouths.
> 
> I have never been so excited by any news for the air force as this one. This is truly a coupe de grace.



Next step should be AIM9X.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Cyberian

Ma'Shah'Allah. Thank you, the Hashemite Kingdom.


----------



## Lil Mathew

This new move is against the PAF's proposed policy of maintaining a technical edge (or parity ) against numerical superiority of IAF.. That is PAF must required new platforms like J10 against IAF's aggressive modernisation.. 
Mirage 2k upgrading to Mirage 2000-5 mk2 std(top end varient of m2k)..
Mig 29s to Mig 29SMT/UPG (Top end varient of mig 29).. 
Let alone su30mki, super su,rafel etc.. 
The problem here is the new acquisition eliminates the possibility of new platforms in Paf near future.. Because the buying of old f16s save some initial capital but requires massive upgrades and high maintanance cost..


----------



## Pakistanisage

Surenas said:


> Why would anyone want to buy 3rd hand planes?





Why does Iranian Air Force has Jets from the 1950's;

Maybe you should join the 21st century before commenting.


----------



## Pakistanisage

Lil Mathew said:


> This new move is against the PAF's proposed policy of maintaining a technical edge (or parity ) against numerical superiority of IAF.. That is PAF must required new platforms like J10 against IAF's aggressive modernisation..
> Mirage 2k upgrading to Mirage 2000-5 mk2 std(top end varient of m2k)..
> Mig 29s to Mig 29SMT/UPG (Top end varient of mig 29)..
> Let alone su30mki, super su,rafel etc..
> The problem here is the new acquisition eliminates the possibility of new platforms in Paf near future.. *Because the buying of old f16s save some initial capital but requires massive upgrades and high maintanance cost*..






Not True.

Even with cost of Acquisition and MLU upgrades they will cost PAF less than 15 million USD. The MLU upgrade brings these F-16 to Block 52 level. There is no additional expense in building new infrastructure or new facilities or training as we are already operating these aircrafts.

F16 is known for its reasonable cost of operation.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Zarvan

Oscar said:


> Those F-16s were not the ones sold either. As they never went through the Ogden center. Jordan augmented its older F-16 fleet with F-16 ADF models and European MLUs from Belgium,Denmark and the Netherlands. There is no indication on what has been sold to Pakistan but the repeated mention of the Ogden center suggest the F-16 ADF variants purchased by Jordan in 1996.
> These were hardly "degraded" versions..
> 
> Also, your contention that the F-16s sold to Jordan did not have F-100 engines is also folly. Please read up.. the F-100 was standard in all F-16s including the one sold to Egypt and Jordan. Israel actually pushed the program as it earned the possibility of further goodwill from it after the 1994 peace accord.


Sir why Jordan is selling them to us when itself is short of Good Fighter Jets and this is BLOCK 15 yes it would be good for anti terrorism Mission but we also have enemy like India will it do any good against them @Aeronaut @Pakistanisage


----------



## Manticore

Zarvan said:


> Sir why Jordan is selling them to us when itself is short of Good Fighter Jets and this is BLOCK 15 yes it would be good for anti terrorism Mission but we also have enemy like India will it do any good against them @Aeronaut @Pakistanisage


PAF F-16 mlu specifications and 36 blk 52+ prospects
paf is already upgrading its fleet between mlu3/mlu4 tapes based on requirements - one can guess that these fighters will go through the same mlu to yield commonality in the squadron

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Zarvan

Manticore said:


> paf is already upgrading its fleet between mlu3/mlu4 tapes based on requirements - one can guess that these fighters will go through the same mlu to yield commonality in the squadron


So after those up gradation which BLOCK they would become or close to which block in capabilities and How come we would get it so fast ?


----------



## Pakistanisage

Zarvan said:


> Sir why Jordan is selling them to us when itself is short of Good Fighter Jets and this is BLOCK 15 yes it would be good for anti terrorism Mission but we also have enemy like India will it do any good against them @Aeronaut @Pakistanisage







Zarvan, with MLU upgrades the F16 block 15 is brought to Block 52 standards.

Look at what MLU upgrade involves:






When the F-16 entered service in 1979, it was expected that the aircraft would be replaced by a successor in 1999. Due to several reasons, both economical and political, the F-16 will not be replaced by a successor (which is not yet available right now) and will not be phased-out until 2010. In order to maintain the same level of operational capabilities and operational effectiveness of existing aircraft over the next ten to twenty years in this world of ever increasing technology, an extensive modernization program was developed, that later became known as the Mid-Life Update or MLU.




The first RDAF F-16B MLU, wearing the Check Six markings on its tail, on touchdown. (LMTAS photo)




The project started in 1989 with a two year study of the possibilities to upgrade the F-16. In May 1991, the development phase started, which continued until 1997.

*Aircraft structural integrity program*
The F-16s airframe has been subject to more heavy loads than was predicted in 1979. This resulted in several unpredicted hair cracks in some of the airframe's bulkheads. Before an aircraft can be offered for MLU modification, the current state of the airframe is examined in the extensive Aircraft Structural Integrity Program (PACER SLIP). In this modification program, all bulkheads of the aircraft will be examined and repaired (using the so called Cold Working method) if necessary. *After PACER SLIP, the aircraft will be able to last at least another 5,000 flying hours and can complete its life expectancy of 30 years.*

Note that hair cracks are not uncommon in aircraft design. To predict the acceptable number and type of cracks, the aircraft manufacturer used information that reflected the exact capabilities of the aircraft. The F-16 was designed as a light and highly maneuverable aircraft that could withstand 9G and last for a minimum of 8,000 flight hours. All data is recorded in a load spectrum that specifies the use of the aircraft (i.e. type of missions), aircraft load and predicted number of landings.

*Participating countries*
At first five countries participated in the Mid Life Update; the four EPAF (European Participating Forces) countries: Belgium, Denmark, the Netherlands and Norway, as well as the United States. Each of the countries has one Lead The Fleet (LTF) F-16 at the Lockheed-Martin plant in Fort Worth, Texas, as a trial aircraft for the modification. At the start of the program, it was projected that the USAF would also convert about 223 A/B-models under the MLU program. With the ending of the Cold War however, this part of the program was finished and the US backed-out after the development program.

In 2001, Portugal announced that it too was considering upgrading its acquired with MLU. The Portuguese program started at the end of 2002, with the first aircraft (LTF) being delivered in early 2003. First 16 A-models and 4 B-models of the _Peace Atlantis II_ program will be upgraded. Followed later on by the other 20 F-16s.

In 2005, Jordan was the following country to decide to upgrade their F-16s with the MLU package. Although their jets already had some upgrades since they were of the ADF version, Jordan decided this wasn't sufficient to maintain in the long run. In a first phase all Peace Falcon II airframes (which hadn't flown awaiting the MLU upgrade) were to be upgraded with all Peace Falcon I airframes to be added later. The first jet was delvered back to the RJAF in 2007.

In 2010 Pakistan also joined the MLU group. It decided to upgrade 35 of its older block 15 airframes with an option for another 10. The first airframe to be converted was test flown in November of 2011 with initial work being performed by Lockheed, while the remainder of the fleet is to be upgraded by TAI in Ankara, Turkey.


*Each aircraft will take up to 2,500 man hours, which is roughly equal to 5 months.*
*Initial work*
*All five Test, Verification and Installation (TVI) aircraft are stripped to the airframe and re-assembled in a later stadium in order to perform all kinds of work, including the replacement of hundreds of wiring harnesses (the cockpit alone incorporates one hundred new wiring harnesses).*

When the aircraft will be completely re-assembled, they will be transported to Edwards Air Force Base in order to perform flight tests. After these flights, the Dutch and Norwegian aircraft will moved to Leeuwarden Air Base for further flight tests. One of the tests include testing of the new fire control radar system under European weather conditions. In a later stadium, the Belgian TVI aircraft follows. At that time, the software tests will commence.

*Is it worth all the effort and the money?*
Because of the F-16s unpredicted heavier airframe load in the Royal Netherlands Air Force, the aircraft's airframe needs to be overhauled apart from the Mid Life Update to allow the airframe to complete 3,500 flight hours. Keeping the aircraft operational until its 5,000th flight hour make the costs involved in the airframe repair / overhaul affordable and acceptable, making expensive airframe "re-inspections" unnecessary. The costs of the airframe repair / overhaul only form a quarter of the costs involved in the Mid Life Update.

The costs involved in the ASIP maintenance program result in increased operational capabilities as well as an increased life expectancy for the F-16 aircraft. These costs are lower than the price of a new aircraft. After the F-16s Mid Life Update modernization program, the F-16 can compete again with the most advanced fighters of today's world. An increase of both technical and economical life expectancy justify the cost for the Mid Life Update program.

The air inlet structure of the Block 10 aircraft will be modified, due to the fact that the current inlet of Block 10 aircraft does not allow for the implementation of hard points to carry equipment such as the Forward Looking Infrared (FLIR) pod.

*Structure & Avionics / Avionics upgrade*
Most of the avionics that will be installed during MLU is existing hardware that is modified for use in the F-16. The Modular Mission Computer however is designed especially for the F-16. This will undoubtedly be one of the most important computers of the F-16 once MLU is completed.

*Modular Mission Computer*
The most important item of the Mid Life Update package is the Texas Instruments Modular Mission Computer (MMC) which is the key to providing new capabilities such as sensors and weapons, improved pilot-vehicle interface and pilot aiding. Subcontractors are Terma, Nea Lindberg and Signaal. This computer consists of line-replaceable modules (LRMs) based upon several MIPSCO R3000 32-bit RISC microprocessors which will run the ADA high-order language. An object-oriented design will reduce the lead times for new software and will improve the software maintenance. Other features include multiplex bus modules, avionics display processor, display driver and power supplies. The MMC will be the key to driving towards fleetwide commonality of system modes and software.

It will replace three components, namely the computers currently in use for the Expanded Fire Control Computer (XFCC), the Head Up Display Electronics Unit (HUD EU or HUD symbol generator), and the Stores Management System's Expanded Central Interface Unit (XCIU). The MMC will take up 42% less volume in the aircraft, weights 55% less and consumes 37% less electrical power. Of the 24 slots available in the computer, ten will be used for future growth.

*Fire Control Radar*
The Westinghouse AN/APG-66(V2) Fire Control Radar (FCR) will be equipped with an completely new signal data processor. It allows a track-while-scan mode for up to ten targets as well as a six-on-six AIM-120 AMRAAM capability. Other features include a 25% improvement in detection and tracking range, an enhanced Doppler Beam Sharpening mode (DBS), enhanced air-ground and ground mapping modes, a medium resolutions DNS, an enhanced ECCM, and a color display compatibility. The MLU kit and the receiver will also have an 40% improved reliability over previous versions.

Physical parameters :

Volume : 3.43 cu. ft.
Weight : 261.5 lb
Power : 3285 V/A AC (Max), 155 Watts DC (Nominal)
Cooling : 11.3 lb/min a 27degr. C
*Advanced IFF*
The Hazeltine APX-111(V1) Advanced Identification Friend-or-Foe system (AIFF) with increased range performance (100 Nm) will operate via four (rather striking) antennas mounted on the upper forward fuselage in front of the canopy. These "bird slicers", more formally known as Upper Interogator Fuselage Mounted Antenna (FMA) Array, will be the most noticeable exterior change of the Mid Life Update.

The benefits of this AIFF system will be the support for BVR weapons delivery in excess of Radar/Missile limits and the enhanced situational awareness which reduces the chance of a fratricide.

*Cockpit displays and indicators*
*Wide Angle Conventional Head Up display*
The new Wide Angle Conventional Head Up Display (WAC HUD) manufactured by GEC Marconi Avionics will increase readability and pilot comfort, offers a wider field of view than the current HUD and adds a raster capability and support for night operations. This HUD is also FLIR and EEGS compatible.

*Multi-Function Display*
The Multi-Function Display (MFD) set, manufactured by Honeywell, include two 10cm x 10cm (4in x 4in) color active matrix liquid crystal multi-function displays, which will replace the current single monochrome Radar Electro/Optical Indicator Unit (REO-IU) and the Stores Control Panel (SCP) - the Stores Management System display. Both displays will increase the pilot's Situational Awareness drastically and will therefore contribute to increased flight safety.

*Enhanced Upgraded Programmable Display Generator*
An Enhanced Upgraded Programmable Display Generator (EUPDG), manufactured by Honeywell and Nea Lindberg in Denmark, will support the two color MFD's, allowing the pilot to set up to twelve display programs. One of them includes a color Horizontal Situation Display, which will be, provide the pilot with a God's eye view of the tactical situation. Inside is a 20MHz, 32-bit Intel 80960 Display Processor and a 256K battery-backed RAM system memory. The color graphics controller is based on the T.I. TMS34020 Raster Graphics Chipset.

*Audio/Video Recorder*
Also new is the Cockpit Television System manufactured by Telemetrics. The current Airborne Video Tape Recorder (AVTR) will be replaced by a TEAC color audio visual tape recorder. Head Up Display images as well as the images of the Multi Function Displays will be selectable for recording which is great for the debriefing of missions.




The same Danish MLU, now in flight. (LMTAS photo)


*Helmet Mounted Display*


A helmet-mounted display (HMD) is not part of the present configuration, but program director Philip Schwab believes that the European operators may decide to incorporate it if the program continues to progress well. Lockheed Martin and Honeywell have demonstrated the use of the HMD, combined with DTS, to allow the pilot to designate targets of opportunity simply by placing an HMD pipper on the target. EPAF and USAF are to pursue a five-nation HMD program, related to the introduction of the ASRAAM, the Advanced Short Range Air-to-Air Missile, somewhere in the next century. Software and hardware modifications are already being studied by a cockpit review team and both space and wiring is already being accounted for in the current MLU.

On Eglin AFB, Honeywell and GEC Marconi experiment with a Helmet Mounted Cueing System (HMCS), combined with Raytheon's Box-Office agile missile. Honeywell and GEC-Marconi will start with the development and promotion of a Look-And-Shoot Helmet Mounted Cueing System for the F-16. This year, flight tests will take place in one of Lockheed-Martin's F-16B duals.

*Side stick controller and throttle grip*
The side stick controller (manufactured by Lear Astronics Corporation) and throttle grip are block 50 unit models and will replace the current Block-10/15 stick grips. Both throttle and stick will be equipped with various controls, for an increased variety of functions, including VHF and UHF communications, IFF interrogation, Improved Data Modem operation, secondary flight controls (speed brakes), night vision cockpit blackout selection (NVIS Switch) and boresighting as well as slaving of missiles (now only selectable via the cues of the Stores Control Panel, which requires hands-off-throttle, head-down operation).
*Modifications & Upgrades / Other features*
*Improved Data Modem*
The Improved Data Modem (IDM), developed by the U.S. Naval Research Laboratory and built by Symetrics Inc., will be used to exchange data of various systems and targets with other aircraft (e.g. F-16, A-10, AH-64 or E-8 JSTARS) or with a ground station. Provisions have been made for the Link 16 Joint Tactical Information Distribution System (JTIDS).

*Electronic Warfare Management System *
An Electronic Warfare Management System (EWMS) developed by Terma Elektronik AS in Denmark provides centralized EW control for entire EW suite : management of threats (RWR), ANQ pods and advanced chaff/flare systems.




Belgian Air Force block 20 MLU. The block 20 can be distinguished by the birdslicers. These are part of the indiginous IFF system. (Luis Rosa photo)


*Miniaturized Airborne GPS Receiver*


MAGR, Miniaturized Airborne GPS Receiver built by Rockwell-Collins Avionics & Communications Division, operating via an E-Systems antenna. It provides accurate position, velocity and time to support navigation, steering and weapon delivery. This system is smaller and lighter than the Block 40/50 receiver (RCVR 3A), consumes less power but delivers the same performance.

*Digital Terrain System*
A Digital Terrain System (DTS), which uses the British Aerospace Systems & Equipments (BASE) Terprom system hosted on a Fairchild Defense memory module (128kb). The DTS provides precise navigation (in conjunction with the Rockwell/E-Systems GPS) and performs a number of safety and situational-awareness functions in low-level flight. This does not imply however, that the F-16 will be capable of automatic terrain following. The (former Block-10/-15) F-16 aircraft does not have a digital flight control system, so the system cannot be linked directly to the aircraft's Flight Control System. The pilot will be following the DTS advice manually by flying on the Flight Path Marker in the HUD. The system is as accurate as the accuracy of the maps being used, so this requires extremely accurate maps of the area.

*Cockpit Layout *
The cockpit layout will be the one of the F-16C Block-40/50. However, unlike the Block-40/50 aircraft, the MLU F-16s will be equipped with color displays. The cockpit lighing will be compatible with Night Vision Imaging System (NVIS) and all visible surfaces will be painted black. The Night Vision goggles are deactivated in the HUD field-of-view to allow inhibited HUD viewing.

*Provisions for recce pods*
Up to now, if the F-16 were to carry reconnaissance pods, it had to be specially equipped for that purpose. A number of Dutch F-16s has been equipped to carry the Oudedelft pod. The MLU will see a standard recce interface installed for a number of reconnaissance pods.

*Provisions for the Microwave Landing System*
This system will be incorporated in the F-16 structure. The system will not be standard equipment on the F-16 and the particular countries have to by it seperately. Although not standard, the system will enhance flight safety by adding an MLS, which can guide the pilot through adverse weather conditions.

*Recent developments*
*First flights of TVI aircraft*
The first of five TVI aircraft for the MLU has made its first flight from Fort Worth on April 28, 1995. This USAF F-16C, #80-0584/ED, a Block 15 model, is destined for the 20 Fighter Wing at Shaw AFB. The second TVI aircraft made its first flight on May 11, 1995. This is a two-seat F-16B aircraft (#ET-204) of the Royal Danish Air Force. The first two of five TVI aircraft were transported to Edwards AFB on June 9th, 1995.

*Start of initial development test & evaluation*
In June 1995, the first flights took place in the MLU's DT&E phase on Edwards Air Force base, under the leadership of main contractor Lockheed-Martin Tactical Aircraft Systems and the United States Air Force. Each of the four EPAF countries supplied its own test pilot.
*Following the DT&E phase*
Both aircraft will be equipped with special measurement systems and will be used in the Development Test & Evaluation test program at Edwards AFB, which will last until October 1997. The three other TVI aircraft will be used in the DT&E phase until mid-1996.

Further tests will then take place at Leeuwarden Air Base, The Netherlands, which will denote the start of the Operational Test & Evaluation phase of MLU. At Leeuwarden, four more MLU aircraft will join the program, the so called Lead The Fleet (LTF) aircraft, the first F-16s that will be modified for each of the four EPAF countries.

*DT&E software tapes 1 thru 4*
The DT&E aircraft now use the MLU Tape-1 software. This version will be replaced in June 1996 by the more extensive Tape-2 at the beginning of the OT&E phase. Tape-4 denote the final version which will be used in the Mid Life Update of other aircraft to be modified.

Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## Lil Mathew

Pakistanisage said:


> Not True.
> 
> Even with cost of Acquisition and MLU upgrades they will cost PAF less than 15 million USD. The MLU upgrade brings these F-16 to Block 52 level. There is no additional expense in building new infrastructure or new facilities or training as we are already operating these aircrafts.
> 
> F16 is known for its reasonable cost of operation.



This case is a particular case.. These ADF f16s in RJAF are the oldest active f16 in the world.. These fighters dated back 1979.. The only platforms completed full service life of 30 years (global average is 17.2 years).. These platforms neared max service life 8000 hrs.. The structuaral upgrades like falcon up, star.. Also upgrades like ADF, OCU,MLU are all for extending life from 4000hrs to 8000hrs..
The only upgrades for extending 2000-4000hrs from 8000hrs are Service Life Extension Program( SLEP) with Combat Avionics Programed Suit (CAPES).. These are now exclusive for USAF for extending their 300 f16s (blk 30 and above) bcos of f35 delays.. If these are available to your f16, it will cost more than our mirage upgrade.. That is above $45 million/f16...


----------



## Zarvan

Pakistanisage said:


> Zarvan, with MLU upgrades the F16 block 15 is brought to Block 52 standards.
> 
> Look at what MLU upgrade involves:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When the F-16 entered service in 1979, it was expected that the aircraft would be replaced by a successor in 1999. Due to several reasons, both economical and political, the F-16 will not be replaced by a successor (which is not yet available right now) and will not be phased-out until 2010. In order to maintain the same level of operational capabilities and operational effectiveness of existing aircraft over the next ten to twenty years in this world of ever increasing technology, an extensive modernization program was developed, that later became known as the Mid-Life Update or MLU.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The first RDAF F-16B MLU, wearing the Check Six markings on its tail, on touchdown. (LMTAS photo)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The project started in 1989 with a two year study of the possibilities to upgrade the F-16. In May 1991, the development phase started, which continued until 1997.
> 
> *Aircraft structural integrity program*
> The F-16s airframe has been subject to more heavy loads than was predicted in 1979. This resulted in several unpredicted hair cracks in some of the airframe's bulkheads. Before an aircraft can be offered for MLU modification, the current state of the airframe is examined in the extensive Aircraft Structural Integrity Program (PACER SLIP). In this modification program, all bulkheads of the aircraft will be examined and repaired (using the so called Cold Working method) if necessary. After PACER SLIP, the aircraft will be able to last at least another 5,000 flying hours and can complete its life expectancy of 30 years.
> 
> Note that hair cracks are not uncommon in aircraft design. To predict the acceptable number and type of cracks, the aircraft manufacturer used information that reflected the exact capabilities of the aircraft. The F-16 was designed as a light and highly maneuverable aircraft that could withstand 9G and last for a minimum of 8,000 flight hours. All data is recorded in a load spectrum that specifies the use of the aircraft (i.e. type of missions), aircraft load and predicted number of landings.
> 
> *Participating countries*
> At first five countries participated in the Mid Life Update; the four EPAF (European Participating Forces) countries: Belgium, Denmark, the Netherlands and Norway, as well as the United States. Each of the countries has one Lead The Fleet (LTF) F-16 at the Lockheed-Martin plant in Fort Worth, Texas, as a trial aircraft for the modification. At the start of the program, it was projected that the USAF would also convert about 223 A/B-models under the MLU program. With the ending of the Cold War however, this part of the program was finished and the US backed-out after the development program.
> 
> In 2001, Portugal announced that it too was considering upgrading its acquired with MLU. The Portuguese program started at the end of 2002, with the first aircraft (LTF) being delivered in early 2003. First 16 A-models and 4 B-models of the _Peace Atlantis II_ program will be upgraded. Followed later on by the other 20 F-16s.
> 
> In 2005, Jordan was the following country to decide to upgrade their F-16s with the MLU package. Although their jets already had some upgrades since they were of the ADF version, Jordan decided this wasn't sufficient to maintain in the long run. In a first phase all Peace Falcon II airframes (which hadn't flown awaiting the MLU upgrade) were to be upgraded with all Peace Falcon I airframes to be added later. The first jet was delvered back to the RJAF in 2007.
> 
> In 2010 Pakistan also joined the MLU group. It decided to upgrade 35 of its older block 15 airframes with an option for another 10. The first airframe to be converted was test flown in November of 2011 with initial work being performed by Lockheed, while the remainder of the fleet is to be upgraded by TAI in Ankara, Turkey.
> 
> TVI aircraft for the MLU program
> BAFF-16A Block 15R80-3584FA-93
> RDAFF-16B block 178-0204ET-204
> RNlAFF-16B Block 15B80-3650J-650
> RNoAFF-16A Block 10B78-0299299
> USAFF-16A Block 15A80-058480584
> 
> 
> LTF aircraft for the MLU program
> BAFF-16B Block 15AA87-0001FB-21
> RDAFF-16A block 578-0177E-177
> RNLAFF-16A Block 10B78-0251J-251
> RNoAFF-16B Block 10B78-0306306
> PoAFF-16A Block 15P82-101715133
> RJAFF-16A Block 15A ADF80-0589671
> PAFF-16B Block 15E81-093382603
> 
> 
> In total, 344 aircraft will be submitted to MLU (Portugal and possible future customers excluded):
> 
> Number of aircraft modified in the MLU program
> BAFF-16A block 10-RNLAFF-16A Block 106
> F-16B Block 10-F-16B Block 104
> F-16A Block 1572F-16A Block 15107
> F-16B Block 1518F-16B Block 1520
> RDAFF-16A Block 1024RNoAFF-16A Block 1020
> F-16B Block 105F-16B Block 104
> F-16A Block 1524F-16A Block 1525
> F-16B Block 158F-16B Block 157
> Each of the EPAF countries contribute to the MLU program :
> 
> Belgium: SABCA Gosselies;
> Denmark: Depot at Aalborg;
> The Netherlands: Fokker Aircraft Services and the air force's DMVS depot at Woensdrecht;
> Norway: Depot at Kjeller.
> Each aircraft will take up to 2,500 man hours, which is roughly equal to 5 months.
> *Initial work*
> All five Test, Verification and Installation (TVI) aircraft are stripped to the airframe and re-assembled in a later stadium in order to perform all kinds of work, including the replacement of hundreds of wiring harnesses (the cockpit alone incorporates one hundred new wiring harnesses).
> 
> When the aircraft will be completely re-assembled, they will be transported to Edwards Air Force Base in order to perform flight tests. After these flights, the Dutch and Norwegian aircraft will moved to Leeuwarden Air Base for further flight tests. One of the tests include testing of the new fire control radar system under European weather conditions. In a later stadium, the Belgian TVI aircraft follows. At that time, the software tests will commence.
> 
> *Is it worth all the effort and the money?*
> Because of the F-16s unpredicted heavier airframe load in the Royal Netherlands Air Force, the aircraft's airframe needs to be overhauled apart from the Mid Life Update to allow the airframe to complete 3,500 flight hours. Keeping the aircraft operational until its 5,000th flight hour make the costs involved in the airframe repair / overhaul affordable and acceptable, making expensive airframe "re-inspections" unnecessary. The costs of the airframe repair / overhaul only form a quarter of the costs involved in the Mid Life Update.
> 
> The costs involved in the ASIP maintenance program result in increased operational capabilities as well as an increased life expectancy for the F-16 aircraft. These costs are lower than the price of a new aircraft. After the F-16s Mid Life Update modernization program, the F-16 can compete again with the most advanced fighters of today's world. An increase of both technical and economical life expectancy justify the cost for the Mid Life Update program.
> 
> The air inlet structure of the Block 10 aircraft will be modified, due to the fact that the current inlet of Block 10 aircraft does not allow for the implementation of hard points to carry equipment such as the Forward Looking Infrared (FLIR) pod.
> 
> *Structure & Avionics / Avionics upgrade*
> Most of the avionics that will be installed during MLU is existing hardware that is modified for use in the F-16. The Modular Mission Computer however is designed especially for the F-16. This will undoubtedly be one of the most important computers of the F-16 once MLU is completed.
> 
> *Modular Mission Computer*
> The most important item of the Mid Life Update package is the Texas Instruments Modular Mission Computer (MMC) which is the key to providing new capabilities such as sensors and weapons, improved pilot-vehicle interface and pilot aiding. Subcontractors are Terma, Nea Lindberg and Signaal. This computer consists of line-replaceable modules (LRMs) based upon several MIPSCO R3000 32-bit RISC microprocessors which will run the ADA high-order language. An object-oriented design will reduce the lead times for new software and will improve the software maintenance. Other features include multiplex bus modules, avionics display processor, display driver and power supplies. The MMC will be the key to driving towards fleetwide commonality of system modes and software.
> 
> It will replace three components, namely the computers currently in use for the Expanded Fire Control Computer (XFCC), the Head Up Display Electronics Unit (HUD EU or HUD symbol generator), and the Stores Management System's Expanded Central Interface Unit (XCIU). The MMC will take up 42% less volume in the aircraft, weights 55% less and consumes 37% less electrical power. Of the 24 slots available in the computer, ten will be used for future growth.
> 
> *Fire Control Radar*
> The Westinghouse AN/APG-66(V2) Fire Control Radar (FCR) will be equipped with an completely new signal data processor. It allows a track-while-scan mode for up to ten targets as well as a six-on-six AIM-120 AMRAAM capability. Other features include a 25% improvement in detection and tracking range, an enhanced Doppler Beam Sharpening mode (DBS), enhanced air-ground and ground mapping modes, a medium resolutions DNS, an enhanced ECCM, and a color display compatibility. The MLU kit and the receiver will also have an 40% improved reliability over previous versions.
> 
> Physical parameters :
> 
> Volume : 3.43 cu. ft.
> Weight : 261.5 lb
> Power : 3285 V/A AC (Max), 155 Watts DC (Nominal)
> Cooling : 11.3 lb/min a 27degr. C
> *Advanced IFF*
> The Hazeltine APX-111(V1) Advanced Identification Friend-or-Foe system (AIFF) with increased range performance (100 Nm) will operate via four (rather striking) antennas mounted on the upper forward fuselage in front of the canopy. These "bird slicers", more formally known as Upper Interogator Fuselage Mounted Antenna (FMA) Array, will be the most noticeable exterior change of the Mid Life Update.
> 
> The benefits of this AIFF system will be the support for BVR weapons delivery in excess of Radar/Missile limits and the enhanced situational awareness which reduces the chance of a fratricide.
> 
> *Cockpit displays and indicators*
> *Wide Angle Conventional Head Up display*
> The new Wide Angle Conventional Head Up Display (WAC HUD) manufactured by GEC Marconi Avionics will increase readability and pilot comfort, offers a wider field of view than the current HUD and adds a raster capability and support for night operations. This HUD is also FLIR and EEGS compatible.
> 
> *Multi-Function Display*
> The Multi-Function Display (MFD) set, manufactured by Honeywell, include two 10cm x 10cm (4in x 4in) color active matrix liquid crystal multi-function displays, which will replace the current single monochrome Radar Electro/Optical Indicator Unit (REO-IU) and the Stores Control Panel (SCP) - the Stores Management System display. Both displays will increase the pilot's Situational Awareness drastically and will therefore contribute to increased flight safety.
> 
> *Enhanced Upgraded Programmable Display Generator*
> An Enhanced Upgraded Programmable Display Generator (EUPDG), manufactured by Honeywell and Nea Lindberg in Denmark, will support the two color MFD's, allowing the pilot to set up to twelve display programs. One of them includes a color Horizontal Situation Display, which will be, provide the pilot with a God's eye view of the tactical situation. Inside is a 20MHz, 32-bit Intel 80960 Display Processor and a 256K battery-backed RAM system memory. The color graphics controller is based on the T.I. TMS34020 Raster Graphics Chipset.
> 
> *Audio/Video Recorder*
> Also new is the Cockpit Television System manufactured by Telemetrics. The current Airborne Video Tape Recorder (AVTR) will be replaced by a TEAC color audio visual tape recorder. Head Up Display images as well as the images of the Multi Function Displays will be selectable for recording which is great for the debriefing of missions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The same Danish MLU, now in flight. (LMTAS photo)
> 
> 
> *Helmet Mounted Display*
> 
> 
> A helmet-mounted display (HMD) is not part of the present configuration, but program director Philip Schwab believes that the European operators may decide to incorporate it if the program continues to progress well. Lockheed Martin and Honeywell have demonstrated the use of the HMD, combined with DTS, to allow the pilot to designate targets of opportunity simply by placing an HMD pipper on the target. EPAF and USAF are to pursue a five-nation HMD program, related to the introduction of the ASRAAM, the Advanced Short Range Air-to-Air Missile, somewhere in the next century. Software and hardware modifications are already being studied by a cockpit review team and both space and wiring is already being accounted for in the current MLU.
> 
> On Eglin AFB, Honeywell and GEC Marconi experiment with a Helmet Mounted Cueing System (HMCS), combined with Raytheon's Box-Office agile missile. Honeywell and GEC-Marconi will start with the development and promotion of a Look-And-Shoot Helmet Mounted Cueing System for the F-16. This year, flight tests will take place in one of Lockheed-Martin's F-16B duals.
> 
> *Side stick controller and throttle grip*
> The side stick controller (manufactured by Lear Astronics Corporation) and throttle grip are block 50 unit models and will replace the current Block-10/15 stick grips. Both throttle and stick will be equipped with various controls, for an increased variety of functions, including VHF and UHF communications, IFF interrogation, Improved Data Modem operation, secondary flight controls (speed brakes), night vision cockpit blackout selection (NVIS Switch) and boresighting as well as slaving of missiles (now only selectable via the cues of the Stores Control Panel, which requires hands-off-throttle, head-down operation).
> *Modifications & Upgrades / Other features*
> *Improved Data Modem*
> The Improved Data Modem (IDM), developed by the U.S. Naval Research Laboratory and built by Symetrics Inc., will be used to exchange data of various systems and targets with other aircraft (e.g. F-16, A-10, AH-64 or E-8 JSTARS) or with a ground station. Provisions have been made for the Link 16 Joint Tactical Information Distribution System (JTIDS).
> 
> *Electronic Warfare Management System *
> An Electronic Warfare Management System (EWMS) developed by Terma Elektronik AS in Denmark provides centralized EW control for entire EW suite : management of threats (RWR), ANQ pods and advanced chaff/flare systems.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Belgian Air Force block 20 MLU. The block 20 can be distinguished by the birdslicers. These are part of the indiginous IFF system. (Luis Rosa photo)
> 
> 
> *Miniaturized Airborne GPS Receiver*
> 
> 
> MAGR, Miniaturized Airborne GPS Receiver built by Rockwell-Collins Avionics & Communications Division, operating via an E-Systems antenna. It provides accurate position, velocity and time to support navigation, steering and weapon delivery. This system is smaller and lighter than the Block 40/50 receiver (RCVR 3A), consumes less power but delivers the same performance.
> 
> *Digital Terrain System*
> A Digital Terrain System (DTS), which uses the British Aerospace Systems & Equipments (BASE) Terprom system hosted on a Fairchild Defense memory module (128kb). The DTS provides precise navigation (in conjunction with the Rockwell/E-Systems GPS) and performs a number of safety and situational-awareness functions in low-level flight. This does not imply however, that the F-16 will be capable of automatic terrain following. The (former Block-10/-15) F-16 aircraft does not have a digital flight control system, so the system cannot be linked directly to the aircraft's Flight Control System. The pilot will be following the DTS advice manually by flying on the Flight Path Marker in the HUD. The system is as accurate as the accuracy of the maps being used, so this requires extremely accurate maps of the area.
> 
> *Cockpit Layout *
> The cockpit layout will be the one of the F-16C Block-40/50. However, unlike the Block-40/50 aircraft, the MLU F-16s will be equipped with color displays. The cockpit lighing will be compatible with Night Vision Imaging System (NVIS) and all visible surfaces will be painted black. The Night Vision goggles are deactivated in the HUD field-of-view to allow inhibited HUD viewing.
> 
> *Provisions for recce pods*
> Up to now, if the F-16 were to carry reconnaissance pods, it had to be specially equipped for that purpose. A number of Dutch F-16s has been equipped to carry the Oudedelft pod. The MLU will see a standard recce interface installed for a number of reconnaissance pods.
> 
> *Provisions for the Microwave Landing System*
> This system will be incorporated in the F-16 structure. The system will not be standard equipment on the F-16 and the particular countries have to by it seperately. Although not standard, the system will enhance flight safety by adding an MLS, which can guide the pilot through adverse weather conditions.
> 
> *Recent developments*
> *First flights of TVI aircraft*
> The first of five TVI aircraft for the MLU has made its first flight from Fort Worth on April 28, 1995. This USAF F-16C, #80-0584/ED, a Block 15 model, is destined for the 20 Fighter Wing at Shaw AFB. The second TVI aircraft made its first flight on May 11, 1995. This is a two-seat F-16B aircraft (#ET-204) of the Royal Danish Air Force. The first two of five TVI aircraft were transported to Edwards AFB on June 9th, 1995.
> 
> *Start of initial development test & evaluation*
> In June 1995, the first flights took place in the MLU's DT&E phase on Edwards Air Force base, under the leadership of main contractor Lockheed-Martin Tactical Aircraft Systems and the United States Air Force. Each of the four EPAF countries supplied its own test pilot.
> *Following the DT&E phase*
> Both aircraft will be equipped with special measurement systems and will be used in the Development Test & Evaluation test program at Edwards AFB, which will last until October 1997. The three other TVI aircraft will be used in the DT&E phase until mid-1996.
> 
> Further tests will then take place at Leeuwarden Air Base, The Netherlands, which will denote the start of the Operational Test & Evaluation phase of MLU. At Leeuwarden, four more MLU aircraft will join the program, the so called Lead The Fleet (LTF) aircraft, the first F-16s that will be modified for each of the four EPAF countries.
> 
> *DT&E software tapes 1 thru 4*
> The DT&E aircraft now use the MLU Tape-1 software. This version will be replaced in June 1996 by the more extensive Tape-2 at the beginning of the OT&E phase. Tape-4 denote the final version which will be used in the Mid Life Update of other aircraft to be modified.
> 
> *M1 tape*
> 
> Development of the M1-tape went through four phases of Flight Test Tapes (FTT). In each of these test tapes, other performances where met, including:
> 
> *FTT-1 tape*
> 
> Radar performance evaluation
> 
> 
> *FTT-2 tape*
> 
> Weapon modes Air-Air and Air-Ground testing
> Navigation (INS and GPS)
> Basic MMC core functions integration
> 
> 
> *FTT-3 tape*
> 
> Datalink
> IFF interrogation
> Horizontal Situation Display
> DTS integration
> Cockpit color screen implementation
> 
> 
> *FTT-4 tape*
> 
> "Clean-up" tape (intended as correction to imperfections found in earlier phases)
> 
> 
> After the M1 tape, the M2 tape followed in 2000, M3 tape in 2003, M4 tape in 2005, M5 tape in 2008 and M6 tape in 2011. All these tapes incorporate other features, including:
> 
> *M2 tape*
> 
> Automatic Target Hand-off System (ATHS)
> Integration of anti radiation (AGM-88) missile capability
> Integration of target designator system
> Further implementation of the Digital Terrain System
> 
> 
> *M3 tape*
> 
> Integration of the Link-16 system
> Integration of capability for GPS controlled weapons (GBU30/32)
> Introduction of Helmet Mounted/Cueing Sight
> Introduction of NVG compatible helmets
> 
> 
> *M4 tape*
> From this tape onwards the first release was already a subrelease starting at MX.1
> 
> *M4.1 tape*
> 
> Introduction of advanced short-range missile, as a replacement for the current Sidewinder (AIM-9X, IRIS-T)
> Integration of advanced Link-16 functions
> Integration of SNIPER targeting pods
> 
> 
> *M4.2 tape*
> 
> Integration of the latest HARM Targeting System (HTS) and its R7 software)
> Integration of SNIPER targeting pod and its S3 software (capable of cataloguing, storing and relaying target images using the Link 16 data-link. M4.2 gives the capability to use the HTS and Sniper ATP on the same aircraft)
> 
> 
> This tape was the first common software for USAF CCIP upgraded block 40/50 airframes.
> 
> *M4.3 tape*
> 
> "Clean-up" tape (intended as correction to imperfections found in earlier phases)
> 
> 
> *M5 tape
> M5.1 tape*
> 
> Integration of capability for stand-off weapons (AGM-154)
> Introduction of more advanced A/G weapons (EGBU-12)
> Introduction of advanced Stores Management System and Joint Mission Planning System
> Introduction of an improved GPS/INS system (more accurate and jamming proof)
> Introduction of new Link-16 message standards to improve interoperability between different aircraft types
> Installation of AN/ARC-210 VHF radios to enable radio contact with FAC’s on the ground
> 
> 
> *M5.2 tape*
> 
> "Clean-up" tape (intended as correction to imperfections found in earlier phases)
> 
> 
> *M6 tape*
> 
> *M6.1 tape*
> 
> Improved IFF system (Mode 5 waveform with better distinction between friendly and enemy aircraft)
> Introduction of AIM-120D missile (two-way datalink, improved navigation and High-Angle Off-Boresight capabilities, a doubled range)
> Introduction of more advanced A/G weapons (GBU-39 SDB, GBU-54 LJDAM)
> Integration of improved Link-16 functions with net-centric capability
> Integration of a new Universal Armament Interface to standardize communication between the aircraft and the weapons, illuminating the need for new OPF tapes with every new weapon system
> 
> 
> *Specifications*
> *Engine:* One Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-220 turbofan, rated at 14,590 lb.s.t. dry and 23,770 lb.s.t. with afterburning.
> 
> *Maximum speed:* Mach 2.05 at 40,000 feet. Service ceiling 55,000 feet. Maximum range 2400 miles. Initial climb rate 62,000 feet per minute.
> 
> *Dimensions:* wingspan 32 feet 9 1/2 inches, length 49 feet 3 1/2 inches, height 16 feet 8 1/2 inches, wing area 300 square feet.
> 
> *Weights:* 16,285 pounds empty, 25,281 pounds combat, 37,500 pounds maximum takeoff.


BLOCK 15 to 52 that is awesome okay than that's good but still I can't get why Jordan is selling them to us or its just USA trying to avoid pressure is using third country


----------



## Manticore

Zarvan said:


> So after those up gradation which BLOCK they would become or close to which block in capabilities and How come we would get it so fast ?


bhai go through the thread I linked -- they will be very close to blk50 however I dont know exactly how many mlu f16s have come back from turkey yet

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## khanasifm

March 2014 2, F7P Sqdn will get new aircraft (1 F16 and another JF-17)

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## SHAMK9

Zarvan said:


> So after those up gradation which BLOCK they would become or close to which block in capabilities and How come we would get it so fast ?


Sir how can you support this sale? f-16 are made by evil jews in Amrika after all

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Zarvan

SHAMK9 said:


> Sir how can you support this sale? f-16 are made by evil jews in Amrika after all


If used against India I love and I would love more if they are equipped with most painful and deadly bombs


----------



## SHAMK9

Zarvan said:


> If used against India I love and I would love more if they are equipped with most painful and deadly bombs

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## MastanKhan

Lil Mathew said:


> This new move is against the PAF's proposed policy of maintaining a technical edge (or parity ) against numerical superiority of IAF.. That is PAF must required new platforms like J10 against IAF's aggressive modernisation..
> Mirage 2k upgrading to Mirage 2000-5 mk2 std(top end varient of m2k)..
> Mig 29s to Mig 29SMT/UPG (Top end varient of mig 29)..
> Let alone su30mki, super su,rafel etc..
> The problem here is the new acquisition eliminates the possibility of new platforms in Paf near future.. Because the buying of old f16s save some initial capital but requires massive upgrades and high maintanance cost..


 

Hi,

Our new product is 10--15 years down the road now. These F16's have sufficient upgrades. They are capable of day / night missions---they are capable of launching bvr's and other armament. Our Blk 52's are more advanced than the J10B's at this time---.
With this procurement---the immediate and instantaneous increase of strike capability is monumental in military terms---full flight ready with all the ground and air staff in place right from day one---so where lies the problem!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Zarvan

SHAMK9 said:


>


Mr don even know Islam before talking Shit which you are doing right now Mr trade with non Muslim is allowed but not alliance with them to attack Muslims may be we should not buy F-16 but if USA gets lost from Muslim lands their is no problem in doing trade as long as product is not Haram so at least know Islam before talking shit as always


----------



## kaykay

Zarvan said:


> If used against India I love and I would love more if they are equipped with most painful and deadly bombs


Don't know Pakistan will do that or not but These Jets are surly killing Talibaboons in large numbers with those 'deadly and most painful bombs'. Today's news.
20 militants killed in North Waziristan aerial bombing


----------



## surya kiran

Zarvan said:


> If used against India I love and I would love more if they are equipped with most painful and deadly bombs


You are working with Shaytaaan Jew Amreeekaaaaa. Your mind has become polluted by all the liberal fascist people in PDF. Run away from here, before you say "We should buy Kfir from Israel"


----------



## EyanKhan

surya kiran said:


> You are working with Shaytaaan Jew Amreeekaaaaa. Your mind has become polluted by all the liberal fascist people in PDF. Run away from here, before you say "We should buy Kfir from Israel"


Bechari ku maaf kar du bhai

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## SBD-3

Saifullah Sani said:


> According to today's jang newspaper Pakistan bought 13 F16 from Jordan with the approval of manufacturer


A/B Block 15 has no PG capabilities AFAIK. Do they?


----------



## AsianLion

The PAF F16s are half Mlued... they are not blk 50 / 52 standard.


----------



## SQ8

hasnain0099 said:


> A/B Block 15 has no PG capabilities AFAIK. Do they?


Depends on the customer.. Pakistan's block 15's were PGM capable with the ATLIS II Pod and GBU-10

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## fatman17

the jhang/news report needs further verification....so we need to keep our feet on the ground. no other wire services carrying this report.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## SQ8

fatman17 said:


> the jhang/news report needs further verification....so we need to keep our feet on the ground. no other wire services carrying this report.


More importantly.. such a sale will go through the US DSCA.. as Congress has to approve this sale..

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## fatman17

Oscar said:


> More importantly.. such a sale will go through the US DSCA.. as Congress has to approve this sale..


 
true however the US still owes us 14 F-16's from the embargoed peace-gate order. so in a way congressional approval is there. what remains to be confirmed is the 'path' to be taken - EDA, USN (not willing) or 3rd party (Jordan).....let's see.


----------



## Infoman

congrats Pakistan .


Jordan did not need these jets because they have no enemy, the Jordanian government is an ally of Israel so they have no immediate use for these jets.


----------



## shree835

Aeronaut said:


> If you remember i mentioned it to you a few months back



PAF is planing to go for upgrade for the mentioned aircraft by block 50+....??



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thank you--would it be prudent to say that all the air forces operating the F 16's other than the u s---accept those limits.
> 
> What I am happy about is that the " *KILL SWITCH PROPAGANDA BRIGADE* " is going to eat dust---that dust is going to be flying off the spinning wheels of a car that the car salesman is taking for a test drive and right into their mouths.
> 
> I have never been so excited by any news for the air force as this one. This is truly a coupe de grace.



Trust me.... KILL SWITCH is not a Propaganda at all... US keep track of each and every US fighter aircraft and uses it as per their requirement.... Recent Spy gate is one of the example...


----------



## Donatello

Oscar said:


> More importantly.. such a sale will go through the US DSCA.. as Congress has to approve this sale..



Pakistan might have already gotten the approval. No point in releasing the news that you are looking to purchase these jets and then get bogged down by approvals. I'd say, they asked the Jordanians if they would like to sell, then went to USA to get the approval and then back to Jordan to finalize the deal.



shree835 said:


> PAF is planing to go for upgrade for the mentioned aircraft by block 50+....??
> 
> 
> 
> Trust me.... KILL SWITCH is not a Propaganda at all... US keep track of each and every US fighter aircraft and uses it as per their requirement.... Recent Spy gate is one of the example...




Oh acha, really? That is so nice of you to tell us about this propaganda. Now please leave this thread if you don't have anything to contribute.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Viper0011.

shree835 said:


> Trust me.... KILL SWITCH is not a Propaganda at all... US keep track of each and every US fighter aircraft and uses it as per their requirement.... Recent Spy gate is one of the example...



Dude, there are no kill switches. Monitoring a sensitive technology to avoid illegal transfer elsewhere to countries like China, etc is one thing. Blocking a weapon's operational capability is totally another issue. LM, GD, Boeing, etc make world class weapon systems for the entire world. Supplying defense articles that fail to operate during its time of need would be a huge blow to their reputation. You think it a kill switch is used...anyone else (including India) will buy anything from the US defense industry???? Let's put the conspiracy theories and India-Pakistan propaganda aside please.
This is a good buy for Pakistan. Pakistan should buy the new block 52's also (the 18 left in the option). I think like many people said here, it is a MUCH better and quickly adoptable platform for the PAF. Virtually ready for deployment once these jets land as the pilots are already familiar with the technology and the flight operations, etc. It won't take them a lot to get used to the ADF version which is slightly modified from what PAF already operates and supports for decades!

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n

Aeronaut said:


> Destination Norway
> 
> 
> 
> More New Block-52s will be purchased too in small numbers.


are negotiations being done for the said purchase ?


----------



## think@best

A really really good news for PAF  it will boost PAF, and fill the GAP in miner , perhaps PAF should go for more Used F 16, We have a good platform for F16, and can replace old F7P. with JFT.

PAF always facing Financial problems, This is a good alternate solution to increase aircraft inventory, these will be bought to fight against TTP.


----------



## SQ8

Donatello said:


> Pakistan might have already gotten the approval. No point in releasing the news that you are looking to purchase these jets and then get bogged down by approvals. I'd say, they asked the Jordanians if they would like to sell, then went to USA to get the approval and then back to Jordan to finalize the deal..



All approvals.. large or small.. get published in the DSCA. When Pakistan sold some of its T-37B stock to Bangladesh.. there was congressional approval required and it was published in the DSCA press release.


----------



## VCheng

orangzaib said:


> Dude, there are no kill switches. Monitoring a sensitive technology to avoid illegal transfer elsewhere to countries like China, etc is one thing. Blocking a weapon's operational capability is totally another issue. LM, GD, Boeing, etc make world class weapon systems for the entire world. Supplying defense articles that fail to operate during its time of need would be a huge blow to their reputation. You think it a kill switch is used...anyone else (including India) will buy anything from the US defense industry???? Let's put the conspiracy theories and India-Pakistan propaganda aside please.
> This is a good buy for Pakistan. Pakistan should buy the new block 52's also (the 18 left in the option). I think like many people said here, it is a MUCH better and quickly adoptable platform for the PAF. Virtually ready for deployment once these jets land as the pilots are already familiar with the technology and the flight operations, etc. It won't take them a lot to get used to the ADF version which is slightly modified from what PAF already operates and supports for decades!




These are the words from Chogy, an ex-F-15 pilot who used to post here:

QUOTE: "*There is technology in these systems that is extremely sensitive that will probably remain in control of the U.S.* That does not mean the weapons will not work. *The GOP and the PAF were entirely aware of these limitations, yet were happy to add these jets to their inventory, regardless*. That should say something - namely, even in a worst-case scenario,* the aircraft would remain important and effective assets*." /QUOTE.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

I don't think these ADFs can fire aim-120 !


----------



## shree835

Donatello said:


> Pakistan might have already gotten the approval. No point in releasing the news that *you are looking to purchase these jets *and then get bogged down by approvals. I'd say, they asked the Jordanians if they would like to sell, then went to USA to get the approval and then back to Jordan to finalize the deal.
> 
> Oh acha, really? That is so nice of you to tell us about this propaganda. Now please leave this thread if you don't have anything to contribute.



We have already rejected most advanced version of F-16 provided by USA i.e F-16IN …I don know, why you are getting hyper….??..I asked a plain and simple question…FYI…We are nowhere interested with Jordan’s F-16…So …Cool.


----------



## shree835

orangzaib said:


> Dude, there are no kill switches. Monitoring a sensitive technology to avoid illegal transfer elsewhere to countries like China, etc is one thing. Blocking a weapon's operational capability is totally another issue. LM, GD, Boeing, etc make world class weapon systems for the entire world. Supplying defense articles that fail to operate during its time of need would be a huge blow to their reputation. You think it a kill switch is used...anyone else (including India) will buy anything from the US defense industry???? Let's put the conspiracy theories and India-Pakistan propaganda aside please.
> This is a good buy for Pakistan. Pakistan should buy the new block 52's also (the 18 left in the option). I think like many people said here, it is a MUCH better and quickly adoptable platform for the PAF. Virtually ready for deployment once these jets land as the pilots are already familiar with the technology and the flight operations, etc. It won't take them a lot to get used to the ADF version which is slightly modified from what PAF already operates and supports for decades!



I did not said anything about India Pakistan here…So As you said India-Pakistan propaganda aside…is totally invalid…As you can see that, we bought transport aircraft from USA, but no any fighter aircraft from USA…even though USA was offering us most advance version of f-16 and f-18….AS you can see , USA never said that they have *area-51*, totally invisible bomber (till the date it was shot down), spying other country (till the date his own officer disclosed it)….etc….. Same case is there with *KILL SWITCH.*...Rest is up to you...

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Manticore

TAI upgraded 16 F-16As one F-16B of RJAF with MLU in 2005. Wd fit snugly into PAF F-16MLU fleet






Alan Warnes (warnesyworld) on Twitter

.... and the number grows .. that too of p.falcon2

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Viper0011.

shree835 said:


> I did not said anything about India Pakistan here…So As you said India-Pakistan propaganda aside…is totally invalid…As you can see that, we bought transport aircraft from USA, but no any fighter aircraft from USA…even though USA was offering us most advance version of f-16 and f-18….AS you can see , USA never said that they have *area-51*, totally invisible bomber (till the date it was shot down), spying other country (till the date his own officer disclosed it)….etc….. Same case is there with *KILL SWITCH.*...Rest is up to you...



Dude, you are mixing Jack and Coke with Jack and Lemon Juice!!!! Entirely separate issues altogether. The area 51 was a CLASSIFIED research and development area so it had to be kept as such. The "Kill Switch" rant that you guys keep bringing up.....is regarding commercial military hardware that is NOT confidential or US Government property in this case as these jets are sold to others after approval from the USG. 
So PLEASE....see the irrational argument yourself before wasting everyone's time through these silly posts. A USG owned, classified area has nothing to do with US Companies doing business with others by selling jets. Later is a public entity and a small issue would bring its stocks or reputation down a LOT!!!



VCheng said:


> These are the words from Chogy, an ex-F-15 pilot who used to post here:
> 
> QUOTE: "*There is technology in these systems that is extremely sensitive that will probably remain in control of the U.S.* That does not mean the weapons will not work. *The GOP and the PAF were entirely aware of these limitations, yet were happy to add these jets to their inventory, regardless*. That should say something - namely, even in a worst-case scenario,* the aircraft would remain important and effective assets*." /QUOTE.



You can't use these aircraft's against USAF or NATO I believe? and that would be because IFF wouldn't register those jets as "enemies". That would be the ''limitation" in my opinion. Plus, there is strict monitoring due to sensitive tech being a part of Block 52. So that's also a limitation as to where they should be kept, inspected, etc, etc. But no country would buy jets if they are deemed useless. In other words, if an F-16 won't work against an adversary ....wouldn't a JFT or even an F-7 not be a MUCH better option as they would work? 
Time to let go of your personal bias towards the kill switch deal. If these really had a kill switch......then the PAF is buying these for static ground weapons testing to see how much weapons does a Block 52 hold without structural cracks parked on the tarmac? Cuz it doesn't sound like you can fly these in a was scenario due to a kill switch.....??

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## VCheng

orangzaib said:


> ................
> You can't use these aircraft's against USAF or NATO I believe? and that would be because IFF wouldn't register those jets as "enemies". That would be the ''limitation" in my opinion. Plus, there is strict monitoring due to sensitive tech being a part of Block 52. So that's also a limitation as to where they should be kept, inspected, etc, etc. But no country would buy jets if they are deemed useless. In other words, if an F-16 won't work against an adversary ....wouldn't a JFT or even an F-7 not be a MUCH better option as they would work?
> Time to let go of your personal bias towards the kill switch deal. If these really had a kill switch......then the PAF is buying these for static ground weapons testing to see how much weapons does a Block 52 hold without structural cracks parked on the tarmac? Cuz it doesn't sound like you can fly these in a was scenario due to a kill switch.....??



I have no bias, those are not my words, those were written by Chogy. 

The F-16s will "remain important and effective" assets, no doubt, but there are "extremely sensitive" technologies on board that will remain in US control, and to say any further is an OPSEC violation.


----------



## Bilal.

VCheng said:


> I have no bias, those are not my words, those were written by Chogy.
> 
> The F-16s will "remain important and effective" assets, no doubt, but there are "extremely sensitive" technologies on board that will remain in US control, and to say any further is an OPSEC violation.



To add to that, bugs were discovered on a crashed Turkish F-16 when certain sealed components cracked open


----------



## Viper0011.

VCheng said:


> I have no bias, those are not my words, those were written by Chogy.
> 
> The F-16s will "remain important and effective" assets, no doubt, but there are "extremely sensitive" technologies on board that will remain in US control, and to say any further is an OPSEC violation.



Did you care to read my post? Are you saying the Mr. Chogy was a part of the design of the aircraft and its technologies? Pilots are end users. They know VERY little about what sensitive stuff is in the aircraft. Any modern American jet doesn't just get built in ONE plant or factory. It has components from a RANGE of different organizations. So what took years to research, rebuild and modernize over decades, a pilot who learned to fly the jet in a few months worth of training, knows all about the mechanics? Everyone flying an F-18 or F-18 can take a guess as to what stuff is advanced and may be sensitive. I don't think they get a memo from the US Government that what it plans to sell to country X. That's a discussion WAY UP the ladder between the representatives of different US agencies / departments and the manufacturers. There is some general stuff that's out for public but the rest of the deal is always classified, specifically down to the mechanics. For example, two countries having V9 Radar may have different ranges. And both of these ranges will still be different from the USAF jets as these are export version technologies. Not what the USG buys for USAF, USN, etc.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Informant

Zarvan said:


> Mr don even know Islam before talking Shit which you are doing right now Mr trade with non Muslim is allowed but not alliance with them to attack Muslims may be we should not buy F-16 but if USA gets lost from Muslim lands their is no problem in doing trade as long as product is not Haram so at least know Islam before talking shit as always



TTP are worse, they are not Muslims. So your argument completely fails.


----------



## Bilal.

MUST READ: Tell-all interview with Pakistan Viper pilot - The DEW Line



> Q: Will the Americans be able to track the locations of the Block 52s through some sort of tracking devices hidden inside the aircraft?
> 
> A: If there are tracking devices then they will be inside the sealed systems, like the avionics suites or the sniper pods because we will not have the ability to look inside. If their Predator and Reaper drones are transmitting their GPS locations via satellite so can a Block 52 F-16.
> 
> *Even though Turkey produces the F-16, there are some components that are manufactured in the US and only come to Turkey for the final assembly. In one incident, a Turkish Block 50 crashed and the pilot was killed. They salvaged the wreckage and laid it out in hanger and started putting together the pieces to find out the cause. They found a piece of sealed equipment which had cracked open and inside they found some device that looked like a bug. Upon inquiry, it turned out to be a tracking device.*



@VCheng @orangzaib


----------



## VCheng

orangzaib said:


> Did you care to read my post? Are you saying the Mr. Chogy was a part of the design of the aircraft and its technologies? Pilots are end users. *They know VERY little about what sensitive stuff is in the aircraft.* Any modern American jet doesn't just get built in ONE plant or factory. It has components from a RANGE of different organizations. So what took years to research, rebuild and modernize over decades, a pilot who learned to fly the jet in a few months worth of training, knows all about the mechanics? Everyone flying an F-18 or F-18 can take a guess as to what stuff is advanced and may be sensitive.* I don't think they get a memo from the US Government that what it plans to sell to country X. That's a discussion WAY UP the ladder between the representatives of different US agencies / departments and the manufacturers.* There is some general stuff that's out for public but *the rest of the deal is always classified,* specifically down to the mechanics. For example, two countries having V9 Radar may have different ranges. And both of these ranges will still be different from the USAF jets as these are export version technologies. Not what the USG buys for USAF, USN, etc.



I guess your statements in bold answer the questions wonderfully well.


----------



## Viper0011.

Bilal. said:


> To add to that, bugs were discovered on a crashed Turkish F-16 when certain sealed components cracked open



Ok, then why are you guys buying these? Of course bugs will be in the plane as the US always wants to monitor its proprietary technology and wants to make sure it doesn't get used for unintended purposes such as someone giving that away to the Russians or the Chinese (hint hint to my Pakistani friends??).
But to say that for a few billions, companies like LM, GD or Boeing, etc would put their reputation and TRILLIONS of dollars worth of business around the globe at risk ....is pure stupidity. Why would the Turks, or the Indians or the French or Malaysians or Indonesians or the Saudi's NOT resort to other more secured options where the product actually works??? You saying that all these guys bought American products with a kill switch so they sit at the tarmac and all those many billions go to waste?

Common guys. Quit wasting everyone's time. No one really cares about an order of 18 F-16's or 80 total jets out of the 5000 sold around the globe. No one's going to mess up their reputation on the rest 4900 jets for the 100 odd and older jets that Pakistan has. Time to lay off the kill switch theory!


----------



## VCheng

Bilal. said:


> To add to that, bugs were discovered on a crashed Turkish F-16 when certain sealed components cracked open



There is no need for tracking devices or bugs. A lot of "magic" can happen in 16 million lines of software code.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Bilal.

@orangzaib, theory? they actually found the devices in Turkish F-16. You call that a theory

And Turkey is a NATO member


----------



## Luftwaffe

Manticore said:


> bhai go through the thread I linked -- they will be very close to blk50 however I dont know exactly how many mlu f16s have come back from turkey yet


 
Exactly as Manticore said close to Bock 50 and to bring them in commonality with fleet not much of a huge difference between block 42/50...radar upgrades from APG-68V[1 or 5] to APGV9 would be required which for 13 could cost some 30m+/-...some other Kits and equipment could be purchased over all around $375ishM is a good deal.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Informant

VCheng said:


> There is no need for tracking devices or bugs. A lot of "magic" can happen in 16 million lines of software code.



People dont realise what the power of a few lines of code are. It's the software that matters more in military machines than hardware itself. I can cripple entire networks with just six lines.

Radar Range improvement needs upgraded software, better in flight management needs software and so on and so forth.


----------



## Viper0011.

Bilal. said:


> @orangzaib, theory? they actually found the devices in Turkish F-16. You call that a theory
> 
> And Turkey is a NATO member


Go reread my post again. If you did that, you wouldn't need to write this post . I also explained WHY there would be bugs. I know there are bugs and should be. We want to make sure our technology isn't sent to China like that old F-16 we got lied about .....remember?
But bugs to track movement, toying with the airframes, etc are different than KILL SWITCH. A Kill Switch means, your jet won't fly or fire. Either one means the name behind the product (the US Government, the LM, Boeing, GD, etc) are going to take a reputation hit. I don't think you know a lot about the US. We don't commit to shi&t. But when we do, we go ALL the way. So in this context, we refused to even provide Block 52's. But when we did, we went all the way and gave AMRAAMS and everything else pretty much. Instead of seeing that or being appreciative that the US is trying to build a long term relationship with you, you guys are too thankless. It is ALWAYS the Americans that cause problems. You guys drink holly water and have nothing wrong in the society or in your neighborhood.
We've asked you HUNDREDS of times to do an operation in N-Wazirastan area. You guys always thought we had other agenda. If you guys had listened, SO MANY THOUSANDS of people wouldn't be dead right now because you would've dismantled their training facilities years ago and the production of terrorists would've reduced significantly. But you waited and waited and didn't trust the US advise. Today, you are paying not to act on time. Take a look around you, these Talibastards are EVERYWHERE in your country!!! So please, quit blaming the US for everything. Here, the jets have always worked (60's war with India, 71, and later with Russians) and will always work. When America makes a commitment, she does it right!!

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Luftwaffe

khanasifm said:


> March 2014 2, F7P Sqdn will get new aircraft (1 F16 and another JF-17)


 
Who told you? To me it seems we are going raise another F-16 Squadron.

@Dazzler @Manticore


----------



## VCheng

Informant said:


> People dont realise what the power of a few lines of code are.* It's the software that matters more in military machines than hardware itself.* I can cripple entire networks with just six lines.
> 
> Radar Range improvement needs upgraded software, better in flight management needs software and so on and so forth.



Hardware is important too, but the software is crucial. For example, Pakistani F-16s must use a DTC system to plan for missions, including a validation code. It will still fly very well, but try planning a complete and accurate mission without it. 



orangzaib said:


> ..........
> But bugs to track movement, toying with the airframes, etc are different than KILL SWITCH. *A Kill Switch means, your jet won't fly or fire*. ................



Why must it be such a binary division? There are many shades of gray in between that are far more useful and undetectable.


----------



## Manticore

Luftwaffe said:


> Who told you? To me it seems we are going raise another F-16 Squadron.
> 
> @Dazzler @Manticore


i've posted what I could find via alan -- the number of f16s are 17 [full squadron] and not 13, perhaps 13 are coming in march -- secondly looks like p.falcon2 batch-- which is great news


still waiting on confirmation by alan on twitter

Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## Bilal.

@orangzaib, the point is if they put *undeclared bugs* in the aircrafts of a NATO ally and for a less trusted country they can put other "security mechanism" only to be used when core american interests are at stake. As for showing to be reliable supplier, they never even pretended and have put cripple sanctions on spares multiple times in the past, now its just a bit more high tech because technology allows it now.


----------



## Manticore

by H khan


> This along with AH-1 and forthcoming of M270 along with some MRAP are all part of US backed EDA. The US decided that they'll pass EDA to Pakistan via third party to avoid noise level at DC.
> 
> 
> 
> There is also talk of six SH-60 Sea hawk helicopters for Pak navy via EDA

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## VCheng

Bilal. said:


> @orangzaib, the point is if they put *undeclared bugs* in the aircrafts of a NATO ally and for a less trusted country they can put other "security mechanism" only to be used when core american interests are at stake. As for showing to be reliable supplier, they never even pretended and have put cripple sanctions on spares multiple times in the past, now its just a bit more high tech because technology allows it now.



Please keep in mind that any bugs found could be planted by many other countries wishing to track assets.


----------



## Bilal.

VCheng said:


> Please keep in mind that any bugs found could be planted by many other countries wishing to track assets.



In sealed components that came from US

Again the point is not about bugs/hardware/software or mechanism of doing it, its precedence that is important in this example.


----------



## SQ8

VCheng said:


> There is no need for tracking devices or bugs. A lot of "magic" can happen in 16 million lines of software code.


Just as an FYI.. the F-16 block 52 has around 2-2.5 million lines of code.. the block 60 close to 3 million. The F-35 has 8 million lines of code.. So .. 16 million is a little exaggeration. 

However, a lot can happen.. which is why the Turks wanted the source codes. That being said, Pakistan will be able to use its F-16s against India as it wishes, when it wishes.. that is the balance provided by the US to the region. 
It will be a whole different matter trying to use the systems against the US.

Ironically, the non-upgraded Block-15s were more secure in terms of operational "privacy" when compared to the now upgraded and new systems.

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## VCheng

Oscar said:


> Just as an FYI.. the F-16 block 52 has around 2-2.5 million lines of code.. the block 60 close to 3 million. The F-35 has 8 million lines of code.. So .. 16 million is a little exaggeration.
> 
> However, a lot can happen.. which is why the Turks wanted the source codes. That being said, Pakistan will be able to use its F-16s against India as it wishes, when it wishes.. that is the balance provided by the US to the region.
> It will be a whole different matter trying to use the systems against the US.
> 
> Ironically, the non-upgraded Block-15s were more secure in terms of operational "privacy" when compared to the now upgraded and new systems.



The exact number depends on what you count: just the plane, or all of its ancillary systems, onboard or not. Besides, we both know a lot can happen within that code, no matter how it is counted. As I have said before, the F-16 will remain an important asset for the PAF as agreed upon with USA, no doubt about that.


----------



## Luftwaffe

@VCheng are we done with bugs and chips and programming.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## VCheng

Oscar said:


> .................
> Ironically, the non-upgraded Block-15s were more secure in terms of operational "privacy" when compared to the now upgraded and new systems.



The older systems were indeed more secure. "New and Improved" is not always better.


----------



## monitor

Luftwaffe said:


> Exactly as Manticore said close to Bock 50 and to bring them in commonality with fleet not much of a huge difference between block 42/50...radar upgrades from APG-68V[1 or 5] to APGV9 would be required which for 13 could cost some 30m+/-...some other Kits and equipment could be purchased over all around $375ishM is a good deal.



Its very cheap at 28.85 million dollar . when compare to untested JF-17 At 25 million

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Manticore

Pakistan acquiring F-16s from Jordan :: F-16.net


----------



## Luftwaffe

monitor said:


> Its very cheap at 28.85 million dollar . when compare to untested JF-17 At 25 million


 
Every aircraft starts as an "untested platform" you have to gradually built it develop and increase its capabilities develop doctrine and so much is related to it. It's not like Revelation and behold everything is in its place. Let us not thumbs down a plane just because it is new it will take time, isn't Yak-130 untested platform for light attack duties.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Luftwaffe

@Manticore



> Under a separate agreement signed in April 2005 between Turkey and the US, 213 Turkish F-16s are being upgraded at a cost of $1.1 billion at the Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) in Ankara. Turkey will be able to change the software source codes of the weapons systems on a total of 204 F-16s with national software source codes if a final agreement is reached with the US.


 
How many F-16s exactly are with TuAF according to my finding some 227 [minus the new Block 52 ordered 30]...out of which as stated above 204 or another news 207 are going under upgrades to Block 50...Which means 23 to 20 F-16s are not touched...are they not fit or what? or is there going to be out of blue news of TuAF F-16s sales. I'm keeping an eye on it.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Manticore

monitor said:


> Its very cheap at 28.85 million dollar . when compare to untested JF-17 At 25 million


that untested weapons system will launch standoff weapons and would be capable of air refueling

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## SQ8

VCheng said:


> The older systems were indeed more secure. "New and Improved" is not always better.


What is being missed in your bugs and secure lines of code is elephant in the room.. WHERE is the DSCA notification?
The sale cannot go through unless congress approves it.. is that not correct??


----------



## Bilal.

Oscar said:


> What is being missed in your bugs and secure lines of code is elephant in the room.. WHERE is the DSCA notification?
> The sale cannot go through unless congress approves it.. is that not correct??



Was there one for the recent AH-1 procurement through Jordan?


----------



## monitor

Manticore said:


> that untested weapons system will launch standoff weapons and would be capable of air refueling



that's right what i wanted to tell is You have years of experience of operating F-16 and its possible capability is known so getting it considerably increases your forces potential .


----------



## VCheng

Oscar said:


> What is being missed in your bugs and secure lines of code is elephant in the room.. WHERE is the DSCA notification?
> The sale cannot go through unless congress approves it.. is that not correct??



Either Congressional approval, or a Presidential waiver.


----------



## SQ8

VCheng said:


> Either Congressional approval, or a Presidential waiver.


In either case, it has to be announced.. does it not?



Bilal. said:


> Was there one for the recent AH-1 procurement through Jordan?


Thats is the thing.. When Pakistan had to give Bangladesh T-37 trainers.. it had to get congressional approval. Here we have AH-1s and F-16s going without much ado.


----------



## Nishan_101

cb4 said:


>



Better for PAF to get these 16 instead of 13 Jordanian, along with 28 US and 21 from Chavez F-16s and upgrade all of them along with the 31 which we have at TAI with PAC engineers and technicians on board.

So that PAF might have till 2008/09 about:
96 F-16sA/B Block-15 MUL-3

That will help them to sustain fleet.

Reactions: Negative Rating Negative Rating:
1


----------



## VCheng

Oscar said:


> In either case, *it has to be announced*.. does it not?
> 
> 
> Thats is the thing.. When Pakistan had to give Bangladesh T-37 trainers.. it had to get congressional approval. Here we have AH-1s and F-16s going without much ado.



Of course. Any such sale cannot happen without due process that is well known to include announcement of the approvals necessary. 

As I said above:



VCheng said:


> *That would be a direct violation of US laws and therefore unlikely.*





mafiya said:


> Significantly, the US has acceded to persistent Pak request for AMRAAM air-to-air missiles, sidewinder missiles and M-270 multiple launch rocket systems which fall in the category of weapons which are banned from being supplied to Pakistan by any European country or the US. In order to effect the supply of AMRAAM advanced air to air missiles, the US has worked a mechanism for handing over significant numbers of these missiles to Pakistan and Jordan even though they do not fit any counter-terrorism role. *The modus operandi would be to do the paper work in a manner that they indicate sale of these weapons to Jordan (or Jordan being shown as the user country) while the missiles would be supplied to Pakistan. Likewise, the latest version of sidewinder air to air missiles (AIM9X), while not falling into the category of anti-terror weapon would be declared as meant for Jordan while it would actually be supplied to the PAF.* The M270 multiple launch rocket system, around 150 of which are presently deployed in Afghanistan, would form part of the inventory of supplies to Pakistan through Jordan.
> 
> 
> US Pakistan Arms Deal | neurope.eu


----------



## Bilal.

Oscar said:


> Thats is the thing.. When Pakistan had to give Bangladesh T-37 trainers.. it had to get congressional approval. Here we have AH-1s and F-16s going without much ado.



This whole via Jordan tranfer process seems to be designed to make very little splash


----------



## VCheng

Bilal. said:


> This whole via Jordan tranfer process seems to be designed to make very little splash



Splash or not, due process must be completed and announced in USA if such a sale is to actually happen.


----------



## SQ8

Bilal. said:


> This whole via Jordan tranfer process seems to be designed to make very little splash


Well, the news item referred to by @VCheng seems to be fine with the F-16s but has little on the AH-1s as they are fairly long term Jordanian assets.


----------



## VCheng

Oscar said:


> Well, the news item referred to by @VCheng seems to be fine with the F-16s but has little on the AH-1s as they are fairly long term Jordanian assets.




Unless it is approved and announced in USA, none of it is happening. Trying to circumvent laws as described in that report is simply not possible.


----------



## MastanKhan

Hi,

People don't realize that the u s defence contractors are eagerly awaiting the downing of an su 30 by an aim 120 launched by a paf blk 52.

No american defence contractor would do anything to jeopardize the capability of a u s fighting machine---and specially---when this fighting machine is facing russian equipment. There is no other place in the world where high tech russian equipment will come face to face with an american equipment other than the the skies over india / pakistan.

You kids need to understand the psyche of the americans dfence contarctors----they claim to make the best of the best when it comes to weapons systems---. 

Defence industry---it is all based on trust---trust that ten years down the road---when you need it---it will do the job that it is designed for. It is a matter of pride---it is a matter of reputation---it is a matter of integrity.

This 'kill switch' thing is just a propaganda started by those who want to plant doubts in the minds of people about the capabilities of their machines.

Each and every weapons system that we have gotten from the united states has always performed to the best of its ability and capability every single time and it is not going to change.

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n

Aeronaut said:


> We are building UAVs and UCAVs. What we need now is UCAVs like Wing Loon.
> 
> *F-16s are playing the key role in surgical strikes *against the TTP.



Brother , i don't know whether if it's been asked before or not , but then again i anyway still want to ask that  : Why is PakisTan air ForCe depreciating the already limited service-life of our preCious F-16s in killing those dogs of hell in north waziristan ... ! ? 

Can't the surgiCaL strikes be carried out with P.a.F.'s JF-17 Lightening Thunder Or any other fighter airCraft being currently available in its inventory for that matter such as f7-pg , a-5 or even mirages ...  ?

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Bilal.

Oscar said:


> Well, the news item referred to by @VCheng seems to be fine with the F-16s but has little on the AH-1s as they are fairly long term Jordanian assets.





VCheng said:


> Splash or not, due process must be completed and announced in USA if such a sale is to actually happen.



Not sure how but it is happening very quitely and suddenly ,sure due process and legal formalities must have been fulfilled but its not happening the way we are accustomed to, i.e., DSCA notifications and all hoopla.

@MastanKhan, Their capabilities vis a vis india is not doubted thats why they are a good procurement....


----------



## VCheng

MastanKhan said:


> .............
> 
> Defence industry---it is all based on trust---trust that ten years down the road---when you need it---it will do the job that it is designed for. It is a matter of pride---it is a matter of reputation---it is a matter of integrity.
> 
> ..................



It is also a matter of prudence to ensure that weaponry provided is used as intended.


----------



## Armstrong

Oscar said:


> Well, the news item referred to by @VCheng seems to be fine with the F-16s but has little on the AH-1s as they are fairly long term Jordanian assets.



Waisee why in God's name would the Jordanians even be interested in selling us the F-16s ?  

This is Jordan not some rich Scandinavian Country we're talking about !


----------



## VCheng

Bilal. said:


> Not sure how but it is happening very quitely and suddenly ,sure *due process and legal formalities must have been fulfilled* but its not happening the way we are accustomed to, i.e., DSCA notifications and all hoopla.
> 
> @MastanKhan, Their capabilities vis a vis india is not doubted thats why they are a good procurement....



Okay, so where are the required US sources approving and confirming this sale?


----------



## Bilal.

VCheng said:


> Okay, so where are the required US sources approving and confirming this sale?



I am not concluding anything just sharing my observations as the same happened with ah-1 transfered via Jordan. Unless of course I am mistaking and missed out on confirmations for that sale/transfer.


----------



## SQ8

VCheng said:


> Splash or not, due process must be completed and announced in USA if such a sale is to actually happen.


Yet, the AH-1s from Jordan have arrived and are in action. So where did the DSCA notification for that go? If it only fit new equipment then the T-37s would have been exempt from it.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n

Imran Khan said:


> so truth was deleted lolzzzzzzzzzzzzz i will again say open a junkyard . jordan got used f-16 from USA and you guys got 3rd hand junk from jordan kabaari nhi to kya customers ho
> ?



yar tu tow chup he raha kar  
na teen may na tayra may ...lol:


----------



## VCheng

Bilal. said:


> I am not concluding anything just sharing my observations as the same happened with ah-1 transfered via Jordan. Unless of course I am mistaking and missed out on confirmations for that sale/transfer.





Oscar said:


> Yet, the AH-1s from Jordan have arrived and are in action. So where did the DSCA notification for that go? If it only fit new equipment then the T-37s would have been exempt from it.




Those types of transfers are done via Presidential Waivers and are documented in a different way. Those announcements are not as public.


----------



## SQ8

VCheng said:


> Those types of transfers are done via Presidential Waivers and are documented in a different way. Those announcements are not as public.


Could this then be a presidential waiver?


----------



## VCheng

Oscar said:


> Could this then be a presidential waiver?



Yes, it may be so.


----------



## SQ8

What is the difference between the transfer from Jordon to Pakistan and Pakistan to Bangladesh?
Same FMF item going from one nation to another. Pakistan's sale had to go through congress.


----------



## VCheng

Oscar said:


> What is the difference between the transfer from Jordon to Pakistan and Pakistan to Bangladesh?
> Same FMF item going from one nation to another. Pakistan's sale had to go through congress.



The President has much greater leeway in times of war. The Congress will defer to a Presidential to request to transfer equipment if it helps the WoT. Why do you think F-16s are used to drop bombs and not JF-17s? Peacetime transfers will go through the full process subject to many other considerations.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Mercenary

I wonder how will India react to this?


----------



## VCheng

Mercenary said:


> I wonder how will India react to this?



That will have already been taken into account.


----------



## Last Samuri

In reply to mercernery and how India will react.

I doubt India wil lose sleep over 13 used early model f16s.

They are inducting 17 su30 mki every year so the challenge of these extra f16s will be answered. Before you guys even receive the first one.

Don't forget they are also received mig29k as we speak


----------



## Mercenary

Pakistan needs to acquire some Helicopter Gunships. I think they are more urgently needed than F-16's. Maybe we can get some second hand version of these Gunships.


----------



## Donatello

Last Samuri said:


> In reply to mercernery and how India will react.
> 
> I doubt India wil lose sleep over 13 used early model f16s.
> 
> They are inducting 17 su30 mki every year so the challenge of these extra f16s will be answered. Before you guys even receive the first one.
> 
> Don't forget they are also received mig29k as we speak



This is not India vs Pakistan thread.

Sometimes i really wonder how low the comprehension capability of Indian members is here.....


Post reported

So Alan Warnes tweet says 17 F-16s? How much is it really?



Oscar said:


> What is being missed in your bugs and secure lines of code is elephant in the room.. WHERE is the DSCA notification?
> The sale cannot go through unless congress approves it.. is that not correct??



Did they issue one for the ex-jordanian AH-1s?


----------



## trident2010

Donatello said:


> This is not India vs Pakistan thread.
> 
> Sometimes i really wonder how low the comprehension capability of Indian members is here.....



Its Mercenary who bought India in the picture so I am not sure who got the low comprehension. May be you should report his post.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## HRK

MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n said:


> Brother , i don't know whether if it's been asked before or not , but then again i anyway still want to ask that  : Why is PakisTan air ForCe depreciating the already limited service-life of our preCious F-16s in killing those dogs of hell in north waziristan ... ! ?
> 
> Can't the surgiCaL strikes be carried out with P.a.F.'s JF-17 Lightening Thunder Or any other fighter airCraft being currently available in its inventory for that matter such as f7-pg , a-5 or even mirages ...  ?



to minimize the collateral damage ...... by using LITENING pod .....

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## truthseeker2010

when will these jets be delivered? will they take part in the upcoming operation? where will they be based?


----------



## MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n

HRK said:


> to minimize the collateral damage ...... by using LITENING pod .....


i'm still unconvinced regarding my question


----------



## HRK

MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n said:


> i'm still unconvinced regarding my question



might help you a bit ....

http://www.northropgrumman.com/Capabilities/LITENING/Documents/litening.pdf

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## BATMAN

Imran Khan said:


> so truth was deleted lolzzzzzzzzzzzzz i will again say open a junkyard . jordan got used f-16 from USA and you guys got 3rd hand junk from jordan kabaari nhi to kya customers ho
> ?



mostly built in 1979, It is pure junk!
It cannot be put into service without overhaul and for integration into Pakistan's modern airforce, and further flying, it would require MLU.
Since Pakistan has skills and service setup of F-16, which is the reason for getting into junkyard business.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## SQ8

BATMAN said:


> mostly built in 1979, It is pure junk!
> It cannot be put into service without overhaul and for integration into Pakistan's modern airforce, and further flying, it would require MLU.
> Since Pakistan has skills and service setup of F-16, which is the reason for getting into junkyard business.



Do you know which F-16s has Jordon sold to Pakistan?


----------



## BATMAN

Oscar said:


> Do you know which F-16s has Jordon sold to Pakistan?


Do you know?


----------



## Luftwaffe

BATMAN said:


> mostly built in 1979, It is pure junk!
> It cannot be put into service without overhaul and for integration into Pakistan's modern airforce, and further flying, it would require MLU.
> Since Pakistan has skills and service setup of F-16, which is the reason for getting into junkyard business.


 


> There the Aircraft Directorate personnel from the Ogden Air Logistics Center performed structural upgrades to extend aircraft life from the designed 4,000 to 8,000 hours flying time as part of the Falcon-Up/Service Life Improvement program. They also modified the aircraft engine bay to accept the upgraded Pratt and Whitney F100-220E engine, completely refurbishing and modifying them


 
Is that not enough?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## BATMAN

Luftwaffe said:


> structural upgrades to extend aircraft life from the designed 4,000 to 8,000 hours flying time



You think those frames are flying without any structural repairs? they are no less than 4000-5000 flying hrs.


----------



## Luftwaffe

BATMAN said:


> You think those frames are flying without any structural repairs? they are no less than 4000-5000 flying hrs.


 
Is 5000 hours not enough how many hours do you think an F-16 would be flying per year any clue? Lets put a single aircraft flying 250 hours per year X 20 Years = 5000 hours...These F-16 would be sufficient for PAF uptill 2030.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## SQ8

BATMAN said:


> Do you know?


Im not the one claiming manufacturing years and aircraft status. What is the basis for your claim?


----------



## BATMAN

Luftwaffe said:


> Is 5000 hours not enough how many hours do you think an F-16 would be flying per year any clue? Lets put a single aircraft flying 250 hours per year X 20 Years = 5000 hours...These F-16 would be sufficient for PAF uptill 2030.



As i mentioned before in post 295

To start with, those a/c would require overhaul & MLU (inclusive of structural repair) to become a safe and integrated machine.
After which they may be good for another 3000-4000 hrs. depending on the maintenance, flying and spares availability.
I think we have only 10 spare MLU kits from ordered kits and i doubt US will sell us any more MLU kits.



Oscar said:


> Im not the one claiming manufacturing years and aircraft status. What is the basis for your claim?


I'll come back to you, after reading your posts in this thread!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Luftwaffe

BATMAN said:


> As i mentioned before in post 295
> 
> To start with, those a/c would require overhaul & MLU (inclusive of structural repair) to become a safe and integrated machine.
> After which they may be good for another 3000-4000 hrs. depending on the maintenance, flying and spares availability.
> I think we have only 10 spare MLU kits from ordered kits and i doubt US will sell us any more MLU kits.


 
Why would US not sell any more MLU Kits and other equipment/spares...did not US just authorize Jordan to transfer/sell Numbers of F-16s.

Obviously those F-16s have been inspected/checked out and deemed fit you will know more what PAF intends to do with them once they are received.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## BATMAN

Rashid Mahmood said:


> 16 General Dynamics F-16 Fighting Falcon(12 F-16A and 4 F-16B)in storage at the Aerospace Maintenance and Regeneration Center (AMARC) at Davis Monthan AFB. Deliveries commenced in 1997 and were completed in 1998.











Luftwaffe said:


> did not US just authorize Jordan to transfer/sell Numbers of F-16s.


Since Musharraf gone, US authorize nothing more than junk and all permissions were agreed during Musharraf era.



fatman17 said:


> 16 of which are ADFs

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## illusion8

MastanKhan said:


> There is no other place in the world where *high tech russian equipment* will come face to face with an american equipment other than the the skies over india / pakistan.



SU 30's aren't just Russian equipment, it has a mix of Israeli, French and Indian tech as well.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## VCheng

It is quite interesting to see how the USA is "hated" but yet any mention of supplies of military hardware leads to such "excitement" too.

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## MastanKhan

MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n said:


> Brother , i don't know whether if it's been asked before or not , but then again i anyway still want to ask that  : Why is PakisTan air ForCe depreciating the already limited service-life of our preCious F-16s in killing those dogs of hell in north waziristan ... ! ?
> 
> Can't the surgiCaL strikes be carried out with P.a.F.'s JF-17 Lightening Thunder Or any other fighter airCraft being currently available in its inventory for that matter such as f7-pg , a-5 or even mirages ...  ?


 Hi,

When at first we asked for these aircraft---we told them what these aircraft are going to be used for---and they are doing what they are designed to do. Strike strike strike and strike---.

You put results on the board---you got carte blanche----plus---what you are getting from this combat is experience that you can never have otherwise---. Live excercizes can only do so much for the pilot----actual combat is what really makes the difference.

As for the mileage on the aircraft---big deal---there are more from where these came from---. Plus in due time these aircraft will become outdated----so why not use them.



VCheng said:


> It is also a matter of prudence to ensure that weaponry provided is used as intended.


 

Hi,

Absolutely----and the prudence will only go as far as no first strike---. After that---once the gates of hell are opened---there will be no constraints. There will be no restrictions.

The Chuck Yeager's will be waiting in the wings to see how their equipment performed against the russian and the british equipment---israeli also.


----------



## Yzd Khalifa

@Pakistanisage @Irfan Baloch @Imran Khan @Zarvan @BATMAN @Aeronaut @Luftwaffe @Oscar @pakistan @Pakistanis

Congrats to you all guys 

Still more stuff ahead to come ? ......

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## Kompromat

Yzd Khalifa said:


> @Pakistanisage @Irfan Baloch @Imran Khan @Zarvan @BATMAN @Aeronaut @Luftwaffe @Oscar @pakistan @Pakistanis
> 
> Congrats to you all guys
> 
> Still more stuff ahead to come ? ......



Maybe more surplus F-16s....we will keep collecting them, if and when we get a good deal.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Yzd Khalifa

Aeronaut said:


> Maybe more surplus F-16s....we will keep collecting them, if and when we get a good deal.


Maybe, maybe much more?


----------



## araz

VCheng said:


> Please keep in mind that any bugs found could be planted by many other countries wishing to track assets.


What! Are you accusing the turks to plant bugs in their own planes to malign good old USA. VCHENG I expected better from you. Or are you suggesting that some other govt will plant bugs in a crashed plane which fhe turks themselves have salvaged from a crash site. 
In any case homing devices and probably IFF not recognizing US planes is about the extent of the kill switch that LM would plant.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Kompromat

Yzd Khalifa said:


> Maybe, maybe much more?



Not much. Ideally if we could collect up to a 100 MLU/Block-52+ F-16s and 250 JF-17s in Block I/II/III - we should be okay for replacing our older platforms and for maintaining a power balance.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## BATMAN

MastanKhan said:


> The Chuck Yeager's will be waiting in the wings to see how their equipment performed against the russian and the british equipment---israeli also.



I think cold war is over!


----------



## VCheng

araz said:


> What! Are you accusing the turks to plant bugs in their own planes to malign good old USA. VCHENG I expected better from you. Or are you suggesting that some other govt will plant bugs in a crashed plane which fhe turks themselves have salvaged from a crash site.
> In any case homing devices and probably IFF not recognizing US planes is about the extent of the kill switch that LM would plant.



Keeping track of Turkish F-16s would be something many countries would find desirable: Israel, Russia, Greece, for example. USA has better ways to achieve the same, and more, without discrete and discoverable bugs.


----------



## Bratva

@Oscar @VCheng I guess US not notifying to congress is kind of loophole in their laws they are trying to exploit. Hence the transfer of AIM-9x and other goodies through Jordan without congress breathing down US administration is very much possible. Have a look at this

*Major non-NATO ally

In 1996 major non-NATO allies received additional military and financial benefits when section 2321k was added to Title 22 (Foreign Relations) of the U.S. Code (also known as section 517 of the Foreign Assistance Act of 1961), which added MNNAs to many of the same exemptions from the Arms Export Control Act that were enjoyed by NATO members

Nations named as major non-NATO allies are eligible for the following benefits:

*


*

entry into cooperative research and development projects with the Department of Defense (DoD) on a shared-cost basis

participation in certain counter-terrorism initiatives

purchase of depleted uranium anti-tank rounds

priority delivery of military surplus (ranging from rations to ships)

possession of War Reserve Stocks of DoD-owned equipment that are kept outside of American military bases

loans of equipment and materials for cooperative research and development projects and evaluations

permission to use American financing for the purchase or lease of certain defense equipment

reciprocal training

expedited export processing of space technology
*

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## VCheng

mafiya said:


> @Oscar @VCheng I guess US not notifying to congress is kind of loophole in thei laws they are trying to exploit. Hence the transfer of AIM-9x and other goodies through Jordan without congress breathing down US administration is very much possible. Have a look at this
> 
> *Major non-NATO ally
> 
> In 1996 major non-NATO allies received additional military and financial benefits when section 2321k was added to Title 22 (Foreign Relations) of the U.S. Code (also known as section 517 of the Foreign Assistance Act of 1961), which added MNNAs to many of the same exemptions from the Arms Export Control Act that were enjoyed by NATO members
> 
> Nations named as major non-NATO allies are eligible for the following benefits:
> 
> *
> 
> 
> *
> 
> entry into cooperative research and development projects with the Department of Defense (DoD) on a shared-cost basis
> 
> participation in certain counter-terrorism initiatives
> 
> purchase of depleted uranium anti-tank rounds
> 
> priority delivery of military surplus (ranging from rations to ships)
> 
> possession of War Reserve Stocks of DoD-owned equipment that are kept outside of American military bases
> 
> loans of equipment and materials for cooperative research and development projects and evaluations
> 
> permission to use American financing for the purchase or lease of certain defense equipment
> 
> reciprocal training
> 
> expedited export processing of space technology
> *



Of course. I have already posted about Presidential Waivers in times of war that can create such pathways. Whatever the pathway chosen, it must follow the relevant US laws.


----------



## MastanKhan

BATMAN said:


> I think cold war is over!


 
Hi,

That was just a matter of speech---but still the analysts will be there to see how their equipment performed aginst the others.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## araz

Nishan_101 said:


> Better for PAF to get these 16 instead of 13 Jordanian, along with 28 US and 21 from Chavez F-16s and upgrade all of them along with the 31 which we have at TAI with PAC engineers and technicians on board.
> 
> So that PAF might have till 2008/09 about:
> 96 F-16sA/B Block-15 MUL-3
> 
> That will help them to sustain fleet.


Nishan 101.
I will now start negatively rating any post I find that has acquisitions of equipment in unrealistic numbers. I would also request you to kindly stop this nonsense. It is totally unrealistic. So please beware.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## A1Kaid

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Members need to realize that this is a massive news------you just increased your fire power / strike capability by 25 - 30 % at least---in just one go---. That has suddenly tilted the balance of power a little bit.
> 
> And this news comes now when iaf says that it will have issues if facing war on two fronts. Well they got bigger problems to face now---if paf goes ahead and finds itself another 40---50 more upgraded F16's---the playing field has totally changed.
> 
> And what it comes down to is----a fully integrated aircraft and weapons systems that your pilots are familiar with----you cannot put a price on that.
> 
> There is nothing like time saved in preparing for war----. If paf can get atleast 50 more of these aircraft----it would mean that they have turned the clock back by at least 5 to 8 years in their favour and put iaf in a quandry.



Hi,


Where did you get this 5-8 years figure from? You really seem confident in your assessment.


----------



## Bratva

VCheng said:


> Of course. I have already posted about Presidential Waivers in times of war that can create such pathways. Whatever the pathway chosen, it must follow the relevant US laws.





> Under Section 36(b) of the *Arms Export Control Act (AECA)*, Congress must be formally notified 30 calendar days before the Administration can take the final steps to conclude a government-to-government foreign military sale of:



Absolutely, M NNA exempted from AECA coupled with possession of War Reserve Stocks of DoD-owned equipment that are kept outside of American military bases is a loophole, that America chose to exercise in recent years... Or else all major deals with Pakistan were notified to congress... Looks like mood is changing at capitol hill


----------



## BATMAN

araz said:


> What! Are you accusing the turks to plant bugs in their own planes to malign good old USA. VCHENG I expected better from you. Or are you suggesting that some other govt will plant bugs in a crashed plane which fhe turks themselves have salvaged from a crash site.
> In any case homing devices and probably IFF not recognizing US planes is about the extent of the kill switch that LM would plant.


----------



## Bratva

araz said:


> What! Are you accusing the turks to plant bugs in their own planes to malign good old USA. VCHENG I expected better from you. Or are you suggesting that some other govt will plant bugs in a crashed plane which fhe turks themselves have salvaged from a crash site.
> In any case homing devices and probably IFF not recognizing US planes is about the extent of the kill switch that LM would plant.




*Inside TAO: Documents Reveal Top NSA Hacking Unit*

*The NSA's TAO hacking unit is considered to be the intelligence agency's top secret weapon. It maintains its own covert network, infiltrates computers around the world and even intercepts shipping deliveries to plant back doors in electronics ordered by those it is targeting*

*The NSA Uses Powerful Toolbox in Effort to Spy on Global Networks - SPIEGEL ONLINE*


*Your USB cable, the spy: Inside the NSA’s catalog of surveillance magic
Latest batch of documents leaked shows NSA's power to pwn.

Your USB cable, the spy: Inside the NSA’s catalog of surveillance magic | Ars Technica
*

NSA is already installing surveillance switches on many devices, what's stopping them from implanting Kill switches?


----------



## Irfan Baloch

Yzd Khalifa said:


> @
> 
> Congrats to you all guys :wave:
> 
> Still more stuff ahead to come ;)? ......



well we really need transport and gunship helicopters at the moment and specially from Arab brother countries we would love to have grand Muftis or Imams visiting our country and giving Jummah Khutba in our grand mosques about the Takfiri terrorism

Pakistanis see our Arab scholars and Imam with great reverence and respect and their advice over the TV and Mosques will really help the general public that is constantly bombarded by the Al Qaeda / Taliban propaganda... sadly our population has less respect and trust for our own scholars they are either dismissed for their controversy or being servants to government.

I will like you to write a thread about how your King, the prices, Scholars, teachers and Imams etc have taught the general public and tackled the issue of terrorism because I know majority has effectively dismissed the Al Qaeda ideology



VCheng said:


> Keeping track of Turkish F-16s would be something many countries would find desirable: Israel, Russia, Greece, for example. USA has better ways to achieve the same, and more, without discrete and discoverable bugs.


day when we will make an engineering marvel all by ourselves then we will understand the value of our own work and will understand why USA goes at lengths to protect its intellectual property and knowledge.

sorry for the lack of an example but imagine someone buys a book of a famous author and plagiarizes it and then tries to sell it as his own work that is pretty much in the category of theft and deceit

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## MastanKhan

A1Kaid said:


> Hi,
> 
> 
> Where did you get this 5-8 years figure from? You really seem confident in your assessment.


 

Hi,

If we got the J10 B's in the next couple of years----it will take us 4---6 years to integrate them---have a ground and flight crew fully trained----have an operational manual for strike and air superiority---.

So---the induction of a sqdrn of F16's automatically fills in the 'hole'----you have everything in place---you have flight crew---you have ground crew---you have spare parts---you have weapons and support systems all in place---fully operational for 'monday morning open for business'.

I hope we have learnt somethinmg from integrating the JF 17---. It is all about time----there is no short cut to integration for a brand new aircraft.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## AsianLion

Nishan_101 said:


> Better for PAF to get these 16 instead of 13 Jordanian, along with 28 US and 21 from Chavez F-16s and upgrade all of them along with the 31 which we have at TAI with PAC engineers and technicians on board.
> 
> So that PAF might have till 2008/09 about:
> 96 F-16sA/B Block-15 MUL-3
> 
> That will help them to sustain fleet.




Best is to upgrade the Jordanian 13 in turkey to blk 50/52 along 31 paf f16s already in TAI. Without mid life update, and only FALCON STAR or OCU or ADF, this does not meet paf requirements.


----------



## Viper0011.

VCheng said:


> Why must it be such a binary division? There are many shades of gray in between that are far more useful and undetectable.



Not sure if you'll ever understand the guarantee that comes with Made in America and manufactured by LM, GD, Lockheed or Boeing, etc. They are not in the business of selling crappy planes. Tracking mechanism is fine, messing with the capability equals to bad reputation and a super power's name that's always stood by its ally (as long as allies do the same too).

You are forgetting, your own guys sell for cheap to everyone in the market. Remember the airbase attacks by Talibastards??? Insiders gave them whatever they asked for. So, I think ANYONE who wants to track your assets can pay your people on these locations and can put whatever devices there. I don't think it needs to be announced and reported as to who did it. If these talibastards can hit your AWACS almost at will, planting a device in secrecy is nothing. So why would the US want bad press when anyone can virtually track anything they want to???

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Viper0011.

Oscar said:


> What is the difference between the transfer from Jordon to Pakistan and Pakistan to Bangladesh?
> Same FMF item going from one nation to another. Pakistan's sale had to go through congress.



The difference may be a Presidential Waiver. In Pakistan's case for BD, they probably went through the process through DCSA. But here, there may have been a waiver issued a while ago and thus, its not in the news as that may have happened a while ago. I am just explaining the process. Not sure what the case is here....



Mercenary said:


> I wonder how will India react to this?



I don't think that matters at this point if the waiver or approval's been given by the United States Government. Plus, I can't see how 13 or even 30 jets like these can be a threat to India. India's has an array of good jets so this isn't a step towards Pakistan gaining any superiority over them.



Yzd Khalifa said:


> Still more stuff ahead to come ? ......



Do any of you know how many F-16's have been MLU'd in Turkey?
@Irfan Baloch @Imran Khan @Zarvan @BATMAN @Aeronaut @Luftwaffe @Oscar @pakistan @Pakistanis


----------



## VCheng

Irfan Baloch said:


> ................
> 
> *when day when we will make an engineering marvel all by ourselves then we will understand the value of our own work and will understand why USA goes at lengths to protect its intellectual property and knowledge.*
> 
> sorry for the lack of an example but imagine someone buys a book of a famous author and plagiarizes it and then tries to sell it as his own work that is pretty much in the category of theft and deceit



That day is quite a ways away Sir.



orangzaib said:


> *Not sure if you'll ever understand the guarantee that comes with Made in America* and manufactured by LM, GD, Lockheed or Boeing, etc. *They are not in the business of selling crappy planes.* Tracking mechanism is one, messing with the capability equals to bad reputation and a super power's name that's always stood by its ally (as long as allies do the same too)................



Actually, I understand both USA and Pakistan than many here. 

(Also, I have a pretty good understanding of matters that I speak about.  )

With that said, I have always said that the F-16 is a great aircraft for PAF's needs. Equally true is the fact that there are many layers of complexity in the systems and software that hone the platform for its remarkable performance. There are also many secrets embedded within that complexity. That is all. 





PS: You should fix your flags. Perhaps @WebMaster can help?


----------



## MastanKhan

VCheng said:


> There are also many secrets embedded within that complexity. That is all.
> 
> VCheng,
> 
> These comments are neither here or there---- they are meaningless.


----------



## VCheng

MastanKhan said:


> These comments are neither here or there---- they are meaningless.



I am not about to say anything more specific than that. Chogy's warning was no joke. 



mafiya said:


> Absolutely, M NNA exempted from AECA coupled with possession of War Reserve Stocks of DoD-owned equipment that are kept outside of American military bases is a loophole, that America chose to exercise in recent years... Or else all major deals with Pakistan were notified to congress...* Looks like mood is changing at capitol hill*



No, the mood remains adverse on Capitol Hill. Really adverse.


----------



## Viper0011.

VCheng said:


> No, the mood remains adverse on Capitol Hill. Really adverse.


Mood can change once a true operation starts and these terrorists are killed. You don't understand, these Talibastards are not only a threat to Pakistan, they are a bigger threat to the entire globe.....but they've proven out to be the worse thing for Pakistan for sure. So get rid of these crazy maniacs and many moods will change to support Pakistan!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Viper0011.

mafiya said:


> *Inside TAO: Documents Reveal Top NSA Hacking Unit*
> NSA is already installing surveillance switches on many devices, what's stopping them from implanting Kill switches?



NSA is responsible for the national security. Monitoring communication on devices to save innocent citizens'lives is every national security agency's main responsibility and service to its mother land. So the NSA is doing just that, protecting and saving American citizens lives. Remember, we went through 911 and we take our citizens lives seriously (so should other countries too).

Lol, these so called Kill Switches is a whole different deal than monitoring communication. You need to realize something: A country, in this case, the ONLY super power of its time, is selling jets to an ally through its businesses. If you read my previous sentence out loud three times, you'd feel how powerful and responsible the comment feels.

History has it. The US doesn't cheat. If we have issues with anyone, we will simply not sell these jets or we'll put sanctions on. BUT, we don't sell our credibility and our commitments and don't take them lightly either, take a look at an example, like the WWII. So forget about the kill switch conspiracy theory. Indians and Pakistanis have the most conspiracy theories it seems like. Something to do with the water I guess!

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Nishan_101

araz said:


> Nishan 101.
> I will now start negatively rating any post I find that has acquisitions of equipment in unrealistic numbers. I would also request you to kindly stop this nonsense. It is totally unrealistic. So please beware.



My suggestions are not unrealistic at all. Its people minds that have changed a lot.


----------



## Donatello

There are no kill switches. Certainly not in the case of PAF vs IAF. So please don't post rubbish claims and NSA and bla bla.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Bilal.

Nishan_101 said:


> My suggestions are not unrealistic at all. Its people minds that have changed a lot.



MY friend if they are not unrealistic then please do one lttile exercise, make a list of all suggestions that you have made in different threads and try to estimate the cost. It will come in hundreds of billions of dollars and you say they are not unrealistic? Please stop doing this, it has become very irritating...


----------



## ejaz007

*Billions to Upgrade and Up-arm Pakistan’s F-16s*

*Feb 19/14: +13 Jordanian.* Pakistani media report that the government has inked a deal with Jordan for 12 used F-16As and 1 F-16B:

“With this, the strength of PAF F-16s will reach 76…. The deal… has been authenticated by the manufacturing company and the US government has also given its nod for the sale/purchase of the planes. Well-placed defence sources told The News here the other day that the purchased aircraft were in good condition…. have been modified into Air Defence Fighters (ADF) versions. The Ogden Air Logistics Centre performed structural upgrades to extend the aircraft life from the designed 4,000 to 8,000 hours flying time as part of the programme. They also modified the aircraft engine bay for the upgraded Pratt and Whitney F100-220E engine”

The RJAF does fly F-16 MLUs bought second-hand from Belgium and the Netherlands, but this set being sold is from the 33-plane Peace Falcon I/II purchases of F-16 ADFs in 1997 and 2003. The F-16 ADF variant is actually the F-16 Block 15OCU, which added the more reliable F100-PW-220 turbofan, structural strengthening, an enlarged HUD, and provisions for the radar-guided AIM-120 AMRAAM missile. F-16 ADFs retain the AN/APG-66 radar, which has been supplanted by APG-68 models in subsequent variants and in Pakistan’s upgraded fighters. ADFs have some precision ground attack capability using the AGM-65 Maverick missile, but would be well behind Pakistan’s 18 new Block 52s, or the PAF’s roughly 40 existing Block 15 fighters that were upgraded to a similar standard under the programs above.

Barring upgrades, the best use for F-16 ADFs is as interceptor and air superiority fighters. Recall, however, that the DSCA request for MLU & Falcon STAR kits had a maximum of 60 aircraft, and that these kits wouldn’t be needed for the new F-16C/D Block 52s. Pakistan could order 13 more upgrade kits for these aircraft, and still be within its allotted FMS total.

The deal leaves the Royal Jordanian Air Force with 43-46 front-line F-16AM/BM MLU Block 20 fighters, and 15-18 F-16A/B Block 15 ADFs, of 79 purchased. Not only do they make some money with this sale, they also cut down on the number of RJAF F-16 ADFs that will need expensive mid-life upgrades. At least 2 of the F-16 ADFs have been lost in accidents, and their 5th and most recent F-16 accident took place on Jan 29/14




. Sources: Pakistan’s The News International, “PAF acquires F-16s from Jordan”.

Billions to Upgrade and Up-arm Pakistan’s F-16s

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## fatman17

ejaz007 said:


> *Billions to Upgrade and Up-arm Pakistan’s F-16s*
> 
> *Feb 19/14: +13 Jordanian.* Pakistani media report that the government has inked a deal with Jordan for 12 used F-16As and 1 F-16B:
> 
> “With this, the strength of PAF F-16s will reach 76…. The deal… has been authenticated by the manufacturing company and the US government has also given its nod for the sale/purchase of the planes. Well-placed defence sources told The News here the other day that the purchased aircraft were in good condition…. have been modified into Air Defence Fighters (ADF) versions. The Ogden Air Logistics Centre performed structural upgrades to extend the aircraft life from the designed 4,000 to 8,000 hours flying time as part of the programme. They also modified the aircraft engine bay for the upgraded Pratt and Whitney F100-220E engine”
> 
> The RJAF does fly F-16 MLUs bought second-hand from Belgium and the Netherlands, but this set being sold is from the 33-plane Peace Falcon I/II purchases of F-16 ADFs in 1997 and 2003. The F-16 ADF variant is actually the F-16 Block 15OCU, which added the more reliable F100-PW-220 turbofan, structural strengthening, an enlarged HUD, and provisions for the radar-guided AIM-120 AMRAAM missile. F-16 ADFs retain the AN/APG-66 radar, which has been supplanted by APG-68 models in subsequent variants and in Pakistan’s upgraded fighters. ADFs have some precision ground attack capability using the AGM-65 Maverick missile, but would be well behind Pakistan’s 18 new Block 52s, or the PAF’s roughly 40 existing Block 15 fighters that were upgraded to a similar standard under the programs above.
> 
> Barring upgrades, the best use for F-16 ADFs is as interceptor and air superiority fighters. Recall, however, that the DSCA request for MLU & Falcon STAR kits had a maximum of 60 aircraft, and that these kits wouldn’t be needed for the new F-16C/D Block 52s. Pakistan could order 13 more upgrade kits for these aircraft, and still be within its allotted FMS total.
> 
> The deal leaves the Royal Jordanian Air Force with 43-46 front-line F-16AM/BM MLU Block 20 fighters, and 15-18 F-16A/B Block 15 ADFs, of 79 purchased. Not only do they make some money with this sale, they also cut down on the number of RJAF F-16 ADFs that will need expensive mid-life upgrades. At least 2 of the F-16 ADFs have been lost in accidents, and their 5th and most recent F-16 accident took place on Jan 29/14
> 
> 
> 
> . Sources: Pakistan’s The News International, “PAF acquires F-16s from Jordan”.
> 
> Billions to Upgrade and Up-arm Pakistan’s F-16s


 
still only the pak media is being quoted....



ejaz007 said:


> *Billions to Upgrade and Up-arm Pakistan’s F-16s*
> 
> *Feb 19/14: +13 Jordanian.* Pakistani media report that the government has inked a deal with Jordan for 12 used F-16As and 1 F-16B:
> 
> “With this, the strength of PAF F-16s will reach 76…. The deal… has been authenticated by the manufacturing company and the US government has also given its nod for the sale/purchase of the planes. Well-placed defence sources told The News here the other day that the purchased aircraft were in good condition…. have been modified into Air Defence Fighters (ADF) versions. The Ogden Air Logistics Centre performed structural upgrades to extend the aircraft life from the designed 4,000 to 8,000 hours flying time as part of the programme. They also modified the aircraft engine bay for the upgraded Pratt and Whitney F100-220E engine”
> 
> The RJAF does fly F-16 MLUs bought second-hand from Belgium and the Netherlands, but this set being sold is from the 33-plane Peace Falcon I/II purchases of F-16 ADFs in 1997 and 2003. The F-16 ADF variant is actually the F-16 Block 15OCU, which added the more reliable F100-PW-220 turbofan, structural strengthening, an enlarged HUD, and provisions for the radar-guided AIM-120 AMRAAM missile. F-16 ADFs retain the AN/APG-66 radar, which has been supplanted by APG-68 models in subsequent variants and in Pakistan’s upgraded fighters. ADFs have some precision ground attack capability using the AGM-65 Maverick missile, but would be well behind Pakistan’s 18 new Block 52s, or the PAF’s roughly 40 existing Block 15 fighters that were upgraded to a similar standard under the programs above.
> 
> Barring upgrades, the best use for F-16 ADFs is as interceptor and air superiority fighters. Recall, however, that the DSCA request for MLU & Falcon STAR kits had a maximum of 60 aircraft, and that these kits wouldn’t be needed for the new F-16C/D Block 52s. Pakistan could order 13 more upgrade kits for these aircraft, and still be within its allotted FMS total.
> 
> The deal leaves the Royal Jordanian Air Force with 43-46 front-line F-16AM/BM MLU Block 20 fighters, and 15-18 F-16A/B Block 15 ADFs, of 79 purchased. Not only do they make some money with this sale, they also cut down on the number of RJAF F-16 ADFs that will need expensive mid-life upgrades. At least 2 of the F-16 ADFs have been lost in accidents, and their 5th and most recent F-16 accident took place on Jan 29/14
> 
> 
> 
> . Sources: Pakistan’s The News International, “PAF acquires F-16s from Jordan”.
> 
> Billions to Upgrade and Up-arm Pakistan’s F-16s


 
still only the pak media is being quoted....


----------



## SQ8

BATMAN said:


> I'll come back to you, after reading your posts in this thread!



Please do

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Armstrong

Oscar said:


> Please do



You didn't answer my question !  

Why would the Jordanians be willing to sell us the F-16s if they aren't either a cash rich country who're going to acquire newer high-end platforms in turn or these F-16s aren't without any shortcomings & are in prime condition ?


----------



## ejaz007

fatman17 said:


> still only the pak media is being quoted....
> 
> still only the pak media is being quoted....



Yes and unfortunately. Would love to see a reputable source report on this.


----------



## SQ8

Armstrong said:


> You didn't answer my question !
> 
> Why would the Jordanians be willing to sell us the F-16s if they aren't either a cash rich country who're going to acquire newer high-end platforms in turn or these F-16s aren't without any shortcomings & are in prime condition ?



The Jordanians dont exactly have oil coming out of their ends. They have limited resources through which they want to operate their military. Since they have peace with Israel, they have little in terms of air defence threats to tackle. So it makes sense to get rid of those assets they deem surplus to their cause.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## ejaz007

Armstrong said:


> You didn't answer my question !
> 
> Why would the Jordanians be willing to sell us the F-16s if they aren't either a cash rich country who're going to acquire newer high-end platforms in turn or these F-16s aren't without any shortcomings & are in prime condition ?



This should be seen in the context of Pakistan's deal with USA where PAF ordered 60 MLU kits when they only had around 32 planes. It was PAF's plan to buy some second hand F-16's and upgrade them. There is still room for further second hand F-16 inventory additions.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Irfan Baloch

VCheng said:


> That day is quite a ways away Sir.


which means we got a very long way to realise how it feels to find out that your creation has been copied 
this concept is completely alien to us just like we dont understand about what the fuss is about "insider trading" and "conflict of interest". people who decide in economic policies are actually stake holders and direct benefactors, our CJ sits and rules on petitions where his own family is involved former CJ dismissed all petitions about fraud against the father in law of his daughter relating to eden gardens scam) and so forth



Oscar said:


> The Jordanians dont exactly have oil coming out of their ends. They have limited resources through which they want to operate their military. Since they have peace with Israel, they have little in terms of air defence threats to tackle. So it makes sense to get rid of those assets they deem surplus to their cause.


what about the Ayatullahs they are restless that there is no attention given to Iran which is "rightfully" deserves?


----------



## HRK

ejaz007 said:


> This should be seen in the context of Pakistan's deal with USA where PAF ordered 60 MLU kits when they only had around 32 planes. It was PAF's plan to buy some second hand F-16's and upgrade them. *There is still room for further second hand F-16 inventory additions.*



No probably not
*MLU KITS ordered 60 *
28 Peace gate III/IV F-16 +32 PAF Existing F-16 blk15 = *60*

14 F-16 from peace gate III/IV we have received & i think this deal is to compensate the other 14 peace gate F-16 which will also get MLUed (if not earlier for Jordan, as the report is quit confusing) so 32+14+13= *59

We would only be left with the option for 18 new block 52, and keeping the economic condition in consideration, I don't think we will exercise this option.*

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## SQ8

Irfan Baloch said:


> what about the Ayatullahs they are restless that there is no attention given to Iran which is "rightfully" deserves?



I dont think the Jordanians have much on the Ayatollahs..nor are the Ayatollahs going to do anything that warrants the RJAF F-16s going into play.. Their focus is on Syria. Any situation in Syria has the potential to spill over in Jordan(which it does)..so if Syria can be kept hot using the usual Bollah against the Qaeda.. it should be all good.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Zarvan

Oscar said:


> I dont think the Jordanians have much on the Ayatollahs..nor are the Ayatollahs going to do anything that warrants the RJAF F-16s going into play.. Their focus is on Syria. Any situation in Syria has the potential to spill over in Jordan(which it does)..so if Syria can be kept hot using the usual Bollah against the Qaeda.. it should be all good.


Still they are short of good planes why would they sell these to us I can't understand this point


----------



## Dr. Strangelove

Zarvan said:


> Still they are short of good planes why would they sell these to us I can't understand this point



they are buying brand new euro fighters


----------



## Zarvan

wasm95 said:


> they are buying brand new euro fighters


Are you sure about that and what is your source of this news ?


----------



## Dr. Strangelove

Zarvan said:


> Are you sure about that and what is your source of this news ?



Saudi Arabia to finance Jordan Eurofighter deal


----------



## Zarvan

wasm95 said:


> Saudi Arabia to finance Jordan Eurofighter deal


Okay than I hope we get more F-16 from them and get them upgraded from Turkey


----------



## SQ8

Zarvan said:


> Still they are short of good planes why would they sell these to us I can't understand this point



Lets say.. for e.g. you have fifty computers.. out of which you really need 40. Ten are core duos(which can be upgraded but you dont have the money).. and 40 are Core I-5s. Would it not be better financially for you to sell off the ten core duos to someone who is prepared to spend money in upgrading them to Core-I-5s rather than you holding on to something you dont need?

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Zarvan

Oscar said:


> Lets say.. for e.g. you have fifty computers.. out of which you really need 40. Ten are core duos(which can be upgraded but you dont have the money).. and 40 are Core I-5s. Would it not be better financially for you to sell off the ten core duos to someone who is prepared to spend money in upgrading them to Core-I-5s rather than you holding on to something you dont need?


Sir that's my point they hardly have those 40 which they need and even out of those 40 which they should have are selling to us


----------



## SQ8

Zarvan said:


> Sir that's my point they hardly have those 40 which they need and even out of those 40 which they should have are selling to us



Why would they sell you their top of the line equipment to you and keep the less modified ones? 
They do have their 40, which are already upgraded to the latest standards.. these they intend to keep and use till they get a better platform. The others which were upgraded back in 2003.. are being given to you as they may not want them or do not wish to put funds in upgrading them. You are ready to spend the funds on upgrading them and only want the airframes as they have a good amount of useful life left on them.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Zarvan

Oscar said:


> Why would they sell you their top of the line equipment to you and keep the less modified ones?
> They do have their 40, which are already upgraded to the latest standards.. these they intend to keep and use till they get a better platform. The others which were upgraded back in 2003.. are being given to you as they may not want them or do not wish to put funds in upgrading them. You are ready to spend the funds on upgrading them and only want the airframes as they have a good amount of useful life left on them.


Well I don't agree on that they have those 40 but still its good for us we are getting them and by the way we would first get these 13 upgraded and if yes to which standard or will use them for few months first than get them upgraded


----------



## ziaulislam

the on


Zarvan said:


> Sir that's my point they hardly have those 40 which they need and even out of those 40 which they should have are selling to us[/q]
> the only opposition to jordan is Israel, with friendly relationship with them for atleast past two decades plus the factthat few F-16 wount matter anyway. it wouldnt be a bad decision for them to sell it.
> plus its possible they might receive more from USA via EDA and the reason why they are selling is an understanding between pakistan-jordon-USA
> obviously we cant get much things via EDA without creating an upcry in india. i guess even getting pistols will make an upcry in india..we are talking of f-16s here


----------



## Zarvan

ziaulislam said:


> the on


what ?????????


----------



## ziaulislam

the only opposition to jordan is Israel, with friendly relationship with them for atleast past two decades plus the factthat few F-16 wount matter anyway. it wouldnt be a bad decision for them to sell it.
plus its possible they might receive more from USA via EDA and the reason why they are selling is an understanding between pakistan-jordon-USA
obviously we cant get much things via EDA without creating an upcry in india. i guess even getting pistols will make an upcry in india..we are talking of f-16s here
PS my browser is behaving strange


----------



## Luftwaffe

> @Yzd Khalifa: Congrats to you all guys Still more stuff ahead to come....


 
Don't know but I do remember Air Chief of Pakistan had special meeting twice in less than 8 months with finance minister on emergency basis so I expect the meeting was not just for money for 13 aircrafts...I am still keeping an eye on the rest of Turkish 20-23 F-16s rest are going under upgrades apart from 30 ordered.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## EagleEyes

araz said:


> Nishan 101.
> I will now start negatively rating any post I find that has acquisitions of equipment in unrealistic numbers. I would also request you to kindly stop this nonsense. It is totally unrealistic. So please beware.



Please feel free to do to so. I dont want to take drastic measures and ban him from the forum because he loves this forum. But i have told him countless times to not bring his wish list and unrealistic procurements, etc. @Nishan_101


----------



## Informant

WebMaster said:


> Please feel free to do to so. I dont want to take drastic measures and ban him from the forum because he loves this forum. But i have told him countless times to not bring his wish list and unrealistic procurements, etc. @Nishan_101



I actually thinks he's Zarvan's alter ego, a non terroristic persona.


----------



## waz

Jordan is a very close ally of Pakistan, as close as Saudi, perhaps even more so. We have decades of close military cooperation. By the way I have met much of the Jordanian airforce, when they were here in the UK for RIAT 2011. They were the nicest guys ever! Funny and so welcoming. I couldn't stop laughing at them trying to sell "ancient Jordanian vases from Petra" to women, whilst at the same time talking about their C130's (to their husbands/boyfriends) they had flown over. I got served some lovely tea as well!

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Luftwaffe

Informant said:


> I actually thinks he's Zarvan's alter ego, a non terroristic persona.


 
You think Zarvan is terroristic persona, you can't accuse someone like that mate. Anyway back to topic.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## truthseeker2010

Luftwaffe said:


> Is 5000 hours not enough how many hours do you think an F-16 would be flying per year any clue? Lets put a single aircraft flying 250 hours per year X 20 Years = 5000 hours...These F-16 would be sufficient for PAF uptill 2030.



So PAF fly less as compare to other countries?.... that's interesting because it should be more as we have operations(COIN) and exercises besides regular flying.


----------



## Luftwaffe

truthseeker2010 said:


> So PAF fly less as compare to other countries?.... that's interesting because it should be more as we have operations(COIN) and exercises besides regular flying.


 
That was an example. Besides you are not sending entire squadrons to take part. In any case these 13 F-16s are good for the next 15 years sufficient before Next Gen is selected.


----------



## SQ8

truthseeker2010 said:


> So PAF fly less as compare to other countries?.... that's interesting because it should be more as we have operations(COIN) and exercises besides regular flying.



Depends. for e.g. in 2010 PAF pilots in the F-16 squadrons averaged 250 flight hours.. in some cases it was upto 300.. That was due to both high mark exercises and operational sorties as well. To the extent that it took a wear on pilots. The year before that the average was 180... With the introduction of networked simulators.. this number may go down as the PAF would try to balance flight hours and simulator hours.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## MilSpec

Oscar said:


> Why would they sell you their top of the line equipment to you and keep the less modified ones?
> They do have their 40, which are already upgraded to the latest standards.. these they intend to keep and use till they get a better platform. The others which were upgraded back in 2003.. are being given to you as they may not want them or do not wish to put funds in upgrading them. You are ready to spend the funds on upgrading them and only want the airframes as they have a good amount of useful life left on them.


At the end of the day, Jordan has and will remain big brothers sales office, so pakistan pulled off a good slow cooker recipe involving perhaps Ksa, jordan and amreeka....


----------



## Bratva

sandy_3126 said:


> At the end of the day, Jordan has and will remain big brothers sales office, so pakistan pulled off a good slow cooker recipe involving perhaps Ksa, jordan and amreeka....



Being Major Non-Nato Ally has it's perks.


----------



## MilSpec

mafiya said:


> Being Major Non-Nato Ally has it's perks.


Indeed it does...


----------



## Last Samuri

Those F16 are a good peice of business and a serious MLU from block a/b TO block c/d will make them very potent planes.

The Jordanians got these planes in 1990S AROUND 1993-1994 so even i would suggest 20 years of flying at 150 hours is 3000 hours used for the aiframe.

Assuming a max life 6000 hours per F16 over their lives (half used now) this gives paf between 10 & 15 years max of useful life after upgrade..


----------



## Mercenary

waz said:


> Jordan is a very close ally of Pakistan, as close as Saudi, perhaps even more so. We have decades of close military cooperation. By the way I have met much of the Jordanian airforce, when they were here in the UK for RIAT 2011. They were the nicest guys ever! Funny and so welcoming. I couldn't stop laughing at them trying to sell "ancient Jordanian vases from Petra" to women, whilst at the same time talking about their C130's (to their husbands/boyfriends) they had flown over. I got served some lovely tea as well!



Pakistan and Jordan have been close allies since the 1960's.

We helped train and rebuild the Jordanian Army after their defeat in 6 Day War and we helped defeat the PLO in Black September in 1970.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

Mercenary said:


> Pakistan and Jordan have been close allies since the 1960's.
> 
> We helped train and rebuild the Jordanian Army after their defeat in 6 Day War and we helped defeat the PLO in Black September in 1970.



We"? coming from Canadian Merceneray .. hallelujah..Lord be praised.


----------



## Abingdonboy

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Members need to realize that this is a massive news------you just increased your fire power / strike capability by 25 - 30 % at least---in just one go---. That has suddenly tilted the balance of power a little bit.
> 
> And this news comes now when iaf says that it will have issues if facing war on two fronts. Well they got bigger problems to face now---if paf goes ahead and finds itself another 40---50 more upgraded F16's---the playing field has totally changed.
> 
> And what it comes down to is----a fully integrated aircraft and weapons systems that your pilots are familiar with----you cannot put a price on that.
> 
> There is nothing like time saved in preparing for war----. If paf can get atleast 50 more of these aircraft----it would mean that they have turned the clock back by at least 5 to 8 years in their favour and put iaf in a quandry.


A sensible and welcome purchase for Pakistan no doubt. But making out this changes the balance of power in the region is nonsensical 13 second hand F-16s don't affect the bigger at all, just gives the PAF a slightly better overall force.


----------



## My-Analogous

araz said:


> What! Are you accusing the turks to plant bugs in their own planes to malign good old USA. VCHENG I expected better from you. Or are you suggesting that some other govt will plant bugs in a crashed plane which fhe turks themselves have salvaged from a crash site.
> In any case homing devices and probably IFF not recognizing US planes is about the extent of the kill switch that LM would plant.


You don't know vcheng, he disappointing us very frequently.


----------



## Mercenary

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> We"? coming from Canadian Merceneray .. hallelujah..Lord be praised.



I think you are reading too much into my Screen Name.

Just like I know you are not a fighter and I doubt you have been to the Desert


----------



## truthseeker2010

Oscar said:


> Depends. for e.g. in 2010 PAF pilots in the F-16 squadrons averaged 250 flight hours.. in some cases it was upto 300.. That was due to both high mark exercises and operational sorties as well. To the extent that it took a wear on pilots. The year before that the average was 180... With the introduction of networked simulators.. this number may go down as the PAF would try to balance flight hours and simulator hours.



Sir how much does the rest of our pilots (Mirage, F-7, JF-17) make in terms of AFH? and where would these F-16 be based? Shahbaz or Mushaf?


----------



## MilSpec

Abingdonboy said:


> A sensible and welcome purchase for Pakistan no doubt. But making out this changes the balance of power in the region is nonsensical 13 second hand F-16s don't affect the bigger at all, just gives the PAF a slightly better overall force.


I hope you are right, but do remember PAF's mirage 3 collection spree and how successful they were at doing this. My apprehensions are
1> Policy shift in DC towards pakistan
2> India degradation in strategic equation in the region, w.r.t. US's china policy
3> Influx of additional f16's to pakistan. 

Irrespective of the tactical significance (which itself is quite a bit), GoI needs to be proactive and deal accordingly. During arrival of f16's we were reactionary, I hope this time around due diligence is carried out thoroughly to negate the worst case scnario's beforehand. That means speeding up the procurement as well as development models.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## aziqbal

Pakistan F16 is comprised of the following

31 original Peace gate I/II are operational along with 14 delivered after 9/11

Add to this the new 18 x F16 C/D that's 63 x F16 in PAF

We are still owed 14 x F16 MLU and can excercise additional new 18 x F16 C/D to make 77 or 95 total F16

However I don't believe we will see the latter


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

Mercenary said:


> I think you are reading too much into my Screen Name.




nah.. ive read a few of your posts.... hint "glad"...



> Just like I know you are not a fighter and I doubt you have been to the Desert



Yeah.. A guy from Baluchistan who has never been to the desert..

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Quwa

sandy_3126 said:


> I hope you are right, but do remember PAF's mirage 3 collection spree and how successful they were at doing this. My apprehensions are
> 1> Policy shift in DC towards pakistan
> 2> India degradation in strategic equation in the region, w.r.t. US's china policy
> 3> Influx of additional f16's to pakistan.
> 
> Irrespective of the tactical significance (which itself is quite a bit), GoI needs to be proactive and deal accordingly. During arrival of f16's we were reactionary, I hope this time around due diligence is carried out thoroughly to negate the worst case scnario's beforehand. That means speeding up the procurement as well as development models.



The US already has a firm long-term policy plan for South Asia, i.e. to do whatever it takes to maintain a strong presence in Afghanistan/Central Asia and contain China. Part of that plan is to see India and Pakistan normalize ties and put an end to the Kashmir dispute. Resolving Kashmir is absolutely necessary (for US) in that it allows India to fully concentrate on its wider regional aspirations (read: contain China). However, until Kashmir is resolved, *there is absolutely NO way the US will do anything to give Pakistan a substantive edge against India. No more F-16s (new or used).
*
These are the following scenarios I see happening:

1. Kashmir is on track to being resolved and Indo-Pak ties normalized. As a result, the US is now willing to equip Pakistan with as many F-16s and other US equipment as it so wills. If Pakistan's nothing more than India's neighbour, then whatever Pakistan does to increase its capabilities won't mean anything for India.

2. The US may be losing their influence in Pakistan, i.e. the military/security leadership in Pakistan is seriously beginning to contemplate a shift that may position Pakistan against US interests in the region. For starters, this would include a true shift towards supporting China, a surge of *real* problems in Afghanistan, and a belligerent attitude towards India and Iran (thus distracting them from China and Syria, respectively). In order to stop that from happening, the US decided it'd be best to throw some substantive carrots, e.g. F-16s, on the condition that it re-orient Pakistan towards resolving Kashmir and chilling out.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## aziqbal

Mark Sien your are not with the times Kashmir is not even on the agenda 

US-Pak relationship is based on Pakistans war against Taliban and how Co-operative Pakistan on the core Afghanistan issues that's it 

Also Pakistan needs to keep handing over Taliban members to US and the whole policy on members 

The day Pakistan goes against US policy In the region Pakistan will be left under sanctions

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Meejee

Any firm dates for arrival of these Falcons?


----------



## Hulk

Abingdonboy said:


> A sensible and welcome purchase for Pakistan no doubt. But making out this changes the balance of power in the region is nonsensical 13 second hand F-16s don't affect the bigger at all, just gives the PAF a slightly better overall force.


I do not believe in *magic*, which means that nations do not suddenly get strong or week. I see some people believe on those lines, also we give too much importance to US influence and its changing intentions. Even when we were not in good terms with US and we were not that economically better we were still doing alright. Currently we are better than what we were in past, so I think the balance will not change much. Additionally, we are in recovery mode trying to consolidate. So when economy takes a turn you will see balance tilting back in India's favor.

In short India has gained a lot in last 2 decades and gains don't just get washed away, we also have our levers we can press. At the same time Pakistan has taken considerable damage in last decade and their is no way to *magically change things*.

Last, while people talk about having weapons etc, what they miss is war needs a lot of money and that is something that Pakistan does not have, having few more types of weapons does not matter when you do not have the economy to back the war. I see a lot of people here talk about raining missiles without realizing how much it takes to sponsor such a rain.

The reason Indians are not big fan of war is because they know that the cost of war is paid for many years, the cost of 71 war is still paid by us.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Donatello

aziqbal said:


> Mark Sien your are not with the times Kashmir is not even on the agenda
> 
> US-Pak relationship is based on Pakistans war against Taliban and how Co-operative Pakistan on the core Afghanistan issues that's it
> 
> Also Pakistan needs to keep handing over Taliban members to US and the whole policy on members
> 
> The day Pakistan goes against US policy In the region Pakistan will be left under sanctions



You are right and Mark is right in his assessment as well. Whether US gives us more F-16s or not, is just no longer the main aim of PAF. We already have JF-17s that offer similar capability, and USA cannot do anything in that regard. As long as China and Russia are willing to supply arms, USA is not even in the equation.

The thing is, that recently USA has realized the huge animosity against it's interests in Pakistan. Hence you see all those USAID advertisements on the tv and the USA so called 'winning the hearts' of the tribal people, people in cities. People like us, who are educated and live abroad. They know that they cannot lose Pakistan. Certainly not, after they learned that in Iran. You don't want an ally who is willing to work with you to go against your interests in the region. If that calls for giving Pakistan F-16s, they will do it.

Now, if Pakistan can come up with 3 billion USD for 36 new BLK52 F-16s, and dangle it like a carrot in front of the manufacturer like Lockheed, you think the USA is going to say no?

Just offer the cash to the US Arms industry and they will do the hard part for you: Lobby in the US congress.

Each F-16 Pakistan buys or upgrades secures jobs for US citizens. They don't give a rat's arse about India vs Pakistan. They want as much orders flowing so they can keep earning.

Our problem is cash. US is already on good relationship with Pakistan and they don't want to deteriorate the situation. 

I think PAF should exercise more options for used/MLU-ed f-16s. But question is, where will they come from? Europe???



Abingdonboy said:


> A sensible and welcome purchase for Pakistan no doubt. But making out this changes the balance of power in the region is nonsensical 13 second hand F-16s don't affect the bigger at all, just gives the PAF a slightly better overall force.



Get this second hand thing out of your head. If that makes you feel safe, lets leave it there. Rest assured, a used F-16 can bomb as many targets in India as a new F-16 or Rafale. So please stop with this non-sense. So many posts on this forum and you still haven't learned a thing.

India operates used Aircraft Carrier. Should i say they don't pose a threat?

Reactions: Like Like:
11


----------



## Rain

VCheng said:


> One more ........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OPSEC violations are serious business, so let me stop right here without adding anything to what has already been said.
> 
> ======================================
> 
> The F-16 is a great choice for PAF, no doubt.


I always love to read your post as these are informative, logical and very accrate...But today I am disappointed. This OPSEc thing sucks hehe


----------



## MastanKhan

Abingdonboy said:


> A sensible and welcome purchase for Pakistan no doubt. But making out this changes the balance of power in the region is nonsensical 13 second hand F-16s don't affect the bigger at all, just gives the PAF a slightly better overall force.


 
Hi,

It is from our perspective----we have an instant increase of strike capability without missing a beat--. So---for us--it is a big thing.

It becomes very clear where our commitment lies now. We got a better performing aircraft at a fraction of the cost---. Now it is about the numbers.

A sqdrn of frontline aircraft being acquired within days is a masive feat of procurement---. Trust me---there will be shell shocked staff at air hdqtrs in hindustan----.

It is simply not about the sqdrn gained in itself----but it is the MULTIPLIER EFFECT OF THAT NUMBER that makes the difference---.

It is on the same level as if the opponent has produced a fully strenghtened and equipped military division with all the provisions and battle ready in the blink of an eye---.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## araz

ghazaliy2k said:


> You don't know vcheng, he disappointing us very frequently.





ghazaliy2k said:


> You don't know vcheng, he disappointing us very frequently.


Bhai.
You need to give peopls a little more credit. I may not know him personally but I do know a fair bit about him. I would've still say that people liie vcheng and mastan khan should be rezpectex for giving us an alternate perspective to an argument.Sometimes there is nothing better than someone who disagrees to make you see the weaknesses in your argument or plan. These people should be respected for the valuable and mostly thankless job that they do.



Abingdonboy said:


> A sensible and welcome purchase for Pakistan no doubt. But making out this changes the balance of power in the region is nonsensical 13 second hand F-16s don't affect the bigger at all, just gives the PAF a slightly better overall force.


A full squadron strength is 16(16--20) normally amd I gather the PAF has bought a squadron 13 of which will arrive in a month. I tech leap would be to have a ready squadron of planes for which the infrastructure already exists and no pilot training is required. If someone can raise a squadron of BVR ready planes in a month it would be quite an achievement since half your fleet is already obsolete. This is what mastan khan is talking about.

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## Saifullah Sani

Pakistan Purchases F-16s From Jordan

According to Pakistani sources, Pakistan’s Air Force has purchased one squadron of F-16 multi-role fighter aircraft from Jordan. The 13 F-16s were in service in the Royal Jordanian Air Force and will be inducted into the Pakistani air force next month. The deal has been finalized, approved by both countries, as well as the United States. The 13 aircraft are the same F-16 A/B Block-15 variant that Pakistan’s Air Force already operates.

The purchase brings the Pakistan Air Force’s total F-16 count to 76. According to _Defense Industry Daily, _the Royal Jordanian Air Force’s F-16 MLUs (Mid-Life Update) were bought from Belgium and the Netherlands. The set sold to Pakistan is from a separate set of F-16s in use by the Jordanian Air Force. “This set being sold is from the 33-plane Peace Falcon I/II purchases of *F-16 ADFs* in 1997 and 2003,” according to _Defense Industry Daily_. The ADF variant–ADF standing for Air Defense Fighter–is more suited for dogfighting, air superiority, and interception.

Pakistan’s _The News International _cites “well-placed defense sources” as confirming that the purchased aircraft were in good condition and could serve for up to another 20 years, with about *3,000 flying hours* available to them. The deal was set up between Pakistan and Jordan a year ago when Pakistan’s Chief of the Air Staff (CAS) Tahir Rafiq Butt visited Jordan to pursue the deal. The total amount Pakistan paid for the aircraft is not known at this point, but _Defense Industry Daily _speculates that Jordan likely made a profit on the sale of the aircraft.

The Jordanian F-16 purchase is the latest step in the Pakistani Air Force’s ongoing efforts to bulk up its fleet. Another example of this is Pakistan and China’s joint development of the JF-17 Thunder aircraft, which is also being incorporated into the Pakistan Air Force.
Pakistan Purchases F-16s From Jordan | PAKISTAN DEFENCE NEWS BLOG | Pakarmedforces.com


----------



## Viper0011.

@Oscar @Aeronaut : Do you guys know the number of F-16's which have already been through the MLU process in Turkey?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## My-Analogous

araz said:


> Bhai.
> You need to give peopls a little more credit. I may not know him personally but I do know a fair bit about him. I would've still say that people liie vcheng and mastan khan should be rezpectex for giving us an alternate perspective to an argument.Sometimes there is nothing better than someone who disagrees to make you see the weaknesses in your argument or plan. These people should be respected for the valuable and mostly thankless job that they do.
> 
> 
> A full squadron strength is 16(16--20) normally amd I gather the PAF has bought a squadron 13 of which will arrive in a month. I tech leap would be to have a ready squadron of planes for which the infrastructure already exists and no pilot training is required. If someone can raise a squadron of BVR ready planes in a month it would be quite an achievement since half your fleet is already obsolete. This is what mastan khan is talking about.



Mastan Khan is very good in his logic and i like his post but Vchang don't have that strong logic and he have very weak supporting documents and that is way he disappoint me frequently.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Abingdonboy

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> It is from our perspective----we have an instant increase of strike capability without missing a beat--. So---for us--it is a big thing.
> It becomes very clear where our commitment lies now. We got a better performing aircraft at a fraction of the cost---. Now it is about the numbers.
> A sqdrn of frontline aircraft being acquired within days is a masive feat of procurement---. Trust me---there will be shell shocked staff at air hdqtrs in hindustan----.
> It is simply not about the sqdrn gained in itself----but it is the MULTIPLIER EFFECT OF THAT NUMBER that makes the difference---.
> It is on the same level as if the opponent has produced a fully strenghtened and equipped military division with all the provisions and battle ready in the blink of an eye---.





araz said:


> A full squadron strength is 16(16--20) normally amd I gather the PAF has bought a squadron 13 of which will arrive in a month. I tech leap would be to have a ready squadron of planes for which the infrastructure already exists and no pilot training is required. If someone can raise a squadron of BVR ready planes in a month it would be quite an achievement since half your fleet is already obsolete. This is what mastan khan is talking about.


 I wasn't doubting the fact this is a significant increase in the PAF's fleet, this represents something like a 20% increase in your top-end strike fleet which isn't a bad month for any air force. All I was challenging was the point that this changes the balance of power in the region- that is all. 



Donatello said:


> Get this second hand thing out of your head. If that makes you feel safe, lets leave it there. Rest assured, a used F-16 can bomb as many targets in India as a new F-16 or Rafale. So please stop with this non-sense. So many posts on this forum and you still haven't learned a thing.
> India operates used Aircraft Carrier. Should i say they don't pose a threat?



I'd hate to break your delusions but the fact something is second-hand IS relevant, you can't just ignore this fact. Seen as you brought up the Vikramditya let me use this analogy also and put aside that something like 75-80% of this ship is new (these ex-Jordainian F-16s won't see anywhere near as much work done on them but that is neither here nor there).I'm not going to try and make out the Viky's age has no affect on its overall capacities and that its age means nothing. The age of the ship means:

a) it cost a significant amount of $$$ to bring it up to a somewhat contemporary level (the Jordanian F-16s face the same issue) 

b) Given the advances in designs and technology it will never be as capable as a new build contemporary product (see IAC-1) built in the modern age even if the tonnage and length are identical (not as much of an issue for the F-16s as the F-16s are still generally the same design and off the shelf upgrades exist)

c) The Viky will, as a result of her age, cost more to operate (the crew on the Viky is considerably larger than what will be on the IAC-1) and will have a shorter service life in the IN than a new build ACC (the former is not as relevant but the latter for the Jordanian F-16s is. Much of the life is already going to have been taken out of these birds and whilst some work may be done now to extend the lives on the Falcons you can not recover what has already been lost and the PAF aren't going to go for the intensive overhauls that will reset the lives of these birds.)


So yes, this is a boost for the PAF- I NEVER questioned this. But the point they are second-hand IS relevant and don't attack me for pointing this out. We all know if the PAF had the cash they wouldn't be go for second hand products- this is just the position they are in. 


Anyway all the best to you chaps and your new purchases.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## My-Analogous

This deal cover all we lost for our JF17 procurement delays. Its cover around one to one and a half year of production JF17 production


----------



## Abingdonboy

indianrabbit said:


> I do not believe in *magic*, which means that nations do not suddenly get strong or week. I see some people believe on those lines, also we give too much importance to US influence and its changing intentions. Even when we were not in good terms with US and we were not that economically better we were still doing alright. Currently we are better than what we were in past, so I think the balance will not change much. Additionally, we are in recovery mode trying to consolidate. So when economy takes a turn you will see balance tilting back in India's favor.
> 
> In short India has gained a lot in last 2 decades and gains don't just get washed away, we also have our levers we can press. At the same time Pakistan has taken considerable damage in last decade and their is no way to *magically change things*.
> 
> Last, while people talk about having weapons etc, what they miss is war needs a lot of money and that is something that Pakistan does not have, having few more types of weapons does not matter when you do not have the economy to back the war. I see a lot of people here talk about raining missiles without realizing how much it takes to sponsor such a rain.
> 
> The reason Indians are not big fan of war is because they know that the cost of war is paid for many years, the cost of 71 war is still paid by us.


I am at an utter lose at this seemingly prevailing mindset that India has somehow "lost" its superior position of late. Nothing has changed as far as India's military is concerned, they still have the clear edge on the Pak Mil and are extending their superiority year on year. Let's talk brass tacks- the IAF's M2K and MiG-29UPG fleet are enough both in quality and quantity to take on the entire PAF F-16 fleet with change, this si before we even factor in the 150+ MKI fleet that is expanding year on year and will eventually see some 300 MKI fighters in service, a machine the PAF (let's be honest) has no answer to. Coming to the point about the US, yes DIPLOMATIC ties were strained because of all that nonsense last year but military-miitary engagement was left unaffected, US and Indian Mil took part in exercises during that time and will continue to at a higher rate. This has been echoed by military brass on both sides. And if the US is serious about their "Asian pivot" they can't afford to "drop" India. Even if they did, India wasn't making itself dependant on the US, they are still perusing their own path.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Assault Rifle

Only source is News International & other websites like DU & The diplomat also quoting NewsInt.

Nothing on Express Tribune or DAWN.

Remember same NewsInternational also reported fake news that VK Singh accepted Indian involvement in Balochistan.


----------



## Manticore

poland isnt buying more f16s - potential future f16 seller?
Poland to purchase 64 new 5th gen fighters between 2020 and 2030


----------



## farhan_9909

Assault Rifle said:


> Only source is News International & other websites like DU & The diplomat also quoting NewsInt.
> 
> Nothing on Express Tribune or DAWN.
> 
> Remember same NewsInternational also reported fake news that VK Singh accepted Indian involvement in Balochistan.



Confirmed by Alan warnes to a pakdef(not pdf) guy in twitter


----------



## khanasifm

*Feb 19/14: +13 Jordanian.* Pakistani media report that the government has inked a deal with Jordan for 12 used F-16As and 1 F-16B:

“With this, the strength of PAF F-16s will reach 76…. The deal… has been authenticated by the manufacturing company and the US government has also given its nod for the sale/purchase of the planes. Well-placed defence sources told The News here the other day that the purchased aircraft were in good condition…. have been modified into Air Defence Fighters (ADF) versions. The Ogden Air Logistics Centre performed structural upgrades to extend the aircraft life from the designed 4,000 to 8,000 hours flying time as part of the programme. They also modified the aircraft engine bay for the upgraded Pratt and Whitney F100-220E engine”

The RJAF does fly F-16 MLUs bought second-hand from Belgium and the Netherlands, but this set being sold is from the *33-plane Peace Falcon I/II purchases of F-16 ADFs in 1997 and 2003*. The *F-16 ADF variant is actually the F-16 Block 15OCU, which added the more reliable F100-PW-220 turbofan, structural strengthening, an enlarged HUD, and provisions for the radar-guided AIM-120 AMRAAM missile. F-16 ADFs retain the AN/APG-66 radar, which has been supplanted by APG-68 models in subsequent variants and in Pakistan’s upgraded fighters. *ADFs have some precision ground attack capability using the AGM-65 Maverick missile, but would be well behind Pakistan’s 18 new Block 52s, or the PAF’s roughly 40 existing Block 15 fighters that were upgraded to a similar standard under the programs above.

Barring upgrades, the best use for F-16 ADFs is as* interceptor and air superiority fighters. Recall, however, that the DSCA request for MLU & Falcon STAR kits had a maximum of 60 aircraft, and that these kits wouldn’t be needed for the new F-16C/D Block 52s. Pakistan could order 13 more upgrade kits for these aircraft, and still be within its allotted FMS total.*

The deal leaves the Royal Jordanian Air Force with 43-46 front-line F-16AM/BM MLU Block 20 fighters, and 15-18 F-16A/B Block 15 ADFs, of 79 purchased. Not only do they make some money with this sale, they also cut down on the number of RJAF F-16 ADFs that will need expensive mid-life upgrades. At least 2 of the F-16 ADFs have been lost in accidents, and their 5th and most recent F-16 accident took place on Jan 29/14




. Sources: Pakistan’s The News International, “PAF acquires F-16s from Jordan”.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Viper0011.

Manticore said:


> poland isnt buying more f16s - potential future f16 seller?
> Poland to purchase 64 new 5th gen fighters between 2020 and 2030



I hope you guys won't make the same mistake like the past. In other words, stock up on F-16's when it will become obsolete. Just like you have F-7's and Mirages right now. In the past, India didn't have top line jets so it worked out to have Farmers, F-7 and older Mirages. Going forward, India is moving ahead with massive plans for 5th Gen and other top line jets like Rafale. So the PAF will need to have some deterrence in place. I know the financial situation and all. But strategy is a strategy and when you are arch enemies, you have got to keep up to some degree. I think a few squadrons of twin turbines and a couple of stealth in the next 5-7 years are a must have. Otherwise, the gap will go huge when India starts to get Rafale and T-50 types of jets

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## VCheng

orangzaib said:


> I hope you guys won't make the same mistake like the past. In other words, stock up on F-16's when it will become obsolete. Just like you have F-7's and Mirages right now. In the past, India didn't have top line jets so it worked out to have Farmers, F-7 and older Mirages. Going forward, India is moving ahead with massive plans for 5th Gen and other top line jets like Rafale. *So the PAF will need to have some deterrence in place. I know the financial situation and all. But strategy is a strategy and when you are arch enemies, you have got to keep up to some degree.* I think a few squadrons of twin turbines and a couple of stealth in the next 5-7 years are a must have. Otherwise, the gap will go huge when India starts to get Rafale and T-50 types of jets



The solution lies in maintaining a credible nuclear deterrent and working on not being arch enemies, not in more warplanes.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## SQ8

VCheng said:


> The solution lies in maintaining a credible nuclear deterrent and working on not being arch enemies, not in more warplanes.


A credible nuclear deterrent is not enough. The solution is in a leadership that is coherent...and a society that is stable and not explosive

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Hulk

Abingdonboy said:


> I am at an utter lose at this seemingly prevailing mindset that India has somehow "lost" its superior position of late. Nothing has changed as far as India's military is concerned, they still have the clear edge on the Pak Mil and are extending their superiority year on year. Let's talk brass tacks- the IAF's M2K and MiG-29UPG fleet are enough both in quality and quantity to take on the entire PAF F-16 fleet with change, this si before we even factor in the 150+ MKI fleet that is expanding year on year and will eventually see some 300 MKI fighters in service, a machine the PAF (let's be honest) has no answer to. Coming to the point about the US, yes DIPLOMATIC ties were strained because of all that nonsense last year but military-miitary engagement was left unaffected, US and Indian Mil took part in exercises during that time and will continue to at a higher rate. This has been echoed by military brass on both sides. And if the US is serious about their "Asian pivot" they can't afford to "drop" India. Even if they did, India wasn't making itself dependant on the US, they are still perusing their own path.


Dude I am saying same thing are you, however I was trying to point at some things that I see repeating. People think that suddenly a magic will happen and balance will tilt. I am just saying it does not work that way. Years of work cannot be undone by one masterstroke.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Abingdonboy

indianrabbit said:


> Dude I am saying same thing are you, however I was trying to point at some things that I see repeating. People think that suddenly a magic will happen and balance will tilt. I am just saying it does not work that way. Years of work cannot be undone by one masterstroke.


Yes but what masterstroke? 13 second hand F-16s??


----------



## Hulk

Abingdonboy said:


> Yes but what masterstroke? 13 second hand F-16s??


Talking the idea in general and not this instance in particular, I got that feeling reading the thread. India has very good growth for 2 years, economic have their good and bad days but the progress we made in 2 decades is not going anywhere.


----------



## Abingdonboy

indianrabbit said:


> Talking the idea in general and not this instance in particular, I got that feeling reading the thread. India has very good growth for 2 years, economic have their good and bad days but the progress we made in 2 decades is not going anywhere.


Ah I see, you're talking about the general pessimism in India of late. Well that's natural I guess of the short-sighted idiots who breath today. One only needs to have a basic understanding of economics and the global finical crisis to understand what is going on not to mention google to see that India's mid to long term growth is looking nothing but healthy.


----------



## VCheng

Oscar said:


> *A credible nuclear deterrent is not enough. *The solution is in a leadership that is coherent...and a society that is stable and not explosive



That is why my advice is to create a coherent leadership and work to wards a stable society and not run after toys like these. They can always come later. The nuclear deterrent Pakistan presently has is certainly enough to keep its perceived arch enemy at bay. The real war is being fought internally (and I don't mean FATA).


----------



## BATMAN

Oscar said:


> Please do


 Please, read my post # 304


----------



## araz

Donatello said:


> You are right and Mark is right in his assessment as well. Whether US gives us more F-16s or not, is just no longer the main aim of PAF. We already have JF-17s that offer similar capability, and USA cannot do anything in that regard. As long as China and Russia are willing to supply arms, USA is not even in the equation.
> 
> The thing is, that recently USA has realized the huge animosity against it's interests in Pakistan. Hence you see all those USAID advertisements on the tv and the USA so called 'winning the hearts' of the tribal people, people in cities. People like us, who are educated and live abroad. They know that they cannot lose Pakistan. Certainly not, after they learned that in Iran. You don't want an ally who is willing to work with you to go against your interests in the region. If that calls for giving Pakistan F-16s, they will do it.
> 
> Now, if Pakistan can come up with 3 billion USD for 36 new BLK52 F-16s, and dangle it like a carrot in front of the manufacturer like Lockheed, you think the USA is going to say no?
> 
> Just offer the cash to the US Arms industry and they will do the hard part for you: Lobby in the US congress.
> 
> Each F-16 Pakistan buys or upgrades secures jobs for US citizens. They don't give a rat's arse about India vs Pakistan. They want as much orders flowing so they can keep earning.
> 
> Our problem is cash. US is already on good relationship with Pakistan and they don't want to deteriorate the situation.
> 
> I think PAF should exercise more options for used/MLU-ed f-16s. But question is, where will they come from? Europe???
> 
> 
> 
> Get this second hand thing out of your head. If that makes you feel safe, lets leave it there. Rest assured, a used F-16 can bomb as many targets in India as a new F-16 or Rafale. So please stop with this non-sense. So many posts on this forum and you still haven't learned a thing.
> 
> India operates used Aircraft Carrier. Should i say they don't pose a threat?


A very comprehensive and good post. If I remember correctly the option of 18 more 52s is still on the table and canbe exercised. I suspect if PAF wants to increase its fire power rapidly F16s is the logical way to go.Jfts are coming but establishing the infrastructure is taking time. At this time PAFs thinking seems confusing. They want the 16s but dont want the threat of sanctions and have given input into J10bs but are either delaying or cancelling that option altogether. If we go solely with the 16s how much "independence" will we have and do we know that sanctions will not be imposed on us. secondly if we want tk have a 2 tier system how do we look at the J10Bs. This is the conundrum I cant solve at the moment . However if money was not an consideration I would exercise the option of 18 more 52s and wriggle 36 bl 32/42 off of US and upgrade the whole lot to bl 52 standard. I would drop the j10 and wait for the chinese 5th generation offer.
Araz


Abingdonboy said:


> I wasn't doubting the fact this is a significant increase in the PAF's fleet, this represents something like a 20% increase in your top-end strike fleet which isn't a bad month for any air force. All I was challenging was the point that this changes the balance of power in the region- that is all.
> 
> 
> 
> I'd hate to break your delusions but the fact something is second-hand IS relevant, you can't just ignore this fact. Seen as you brought up the Vikramditya let me use this analogy also and put aside that something like 75-80% of this ship is new (these ex-Jordainian F-16s won't see anywhere near as much work done on them but that is neither here nor there).I'm not going to try and make out the Viky's age has no affect on its overall capacities and that its age means nothing. The age of the ship means:
> 
> a) it cost a significant amount of $$$ to bring it up to a somewhat contemporary level (the Jordanian F-16s face the same issue)
> 
> b) Given the advances in designs and technology it will never be as capable as a new build contemporary product (see IAC-
> Anyway all the best to you chaps and your new purchases.


Pakistan has never sought a change in the balance of power. That cor us would be crippling and a sheer stupidity. What we have always sought is credible deterrance.if by your own account we have in a month increased our top line fighter power by 20% then dont you think the deterrance level has gone up by20% as well which in any book is a big boost.
You have also tried to go on a tangent about second hand products being not as effective and given argume ts while Cleverly highlighting that your ship is 75--80% new. I will humbly point out thatwe dont have the same luxury of cash reserves which aee at your disposal. We are cash deprived and need to mount a defence with whatever we can procure within and sometimes where absolutely necessaryjumping out of our skins to gather whatever we can.For us even second hand ideal. These platforms have 3000hrs of life left on them and are therefore good for12-15 yrs. The world at its current pace will have moved tremendously in 15yrs and the instruments of war will change. We dont need a product for 30yrs we will hope to develop indigenous products by that time and fulfill that deficiency by that time. So it works ideally for us but then you would not understand this because your ethos isddifferent. 
Araz

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## BATMAN

MastanKhan said:


> It becomes very clear where our commitment lies now. We got a better performing aircraft at a fraction of the cost---. Now it is about the numbers.


 
Hi MK,
Those would require overhaul as minimum and further to integrate into PAF's smart airforce, they would require MLU.
Since 2006, we are trying to MLU our existing c.a. 40 F-16, and yet have not achieved half the goal!
Thanks to multiple bills of US senators,every military scrap requested by Pakistan, have to win US parliamnet's permission, which is primarily a hindu lobby.
A new or relatively new F-16 is fine but the F-16 we are getting, have to go long long way to be practically operational in PAF.
So all the advantages of F-16 over JF-17... i.e. primarily range and load is a very very slow gain and small multiplier in the equation.
Where as, we produce, on average 2 JFT / month, we need those more desperately, to replace our previous junk, which has turned PAF into a flying museum.


----------



## araz

orangzaib said:


> I hope you guys won't make the same mistake like the past. In other words, stock up on F-16's when it will become obsolete. Just like you have F-7's and Mirages right now. In the past, India didn't have top line jets so it worked out to have Farmers, F-7 and older Mirages. Going forward, India is moving ahead with massive plans for 5th Gen and other top line jets like Rafale. So the PAF will need to have some deterrence in place. I know the financial situation and all. But strategy is a strategy and when you are arch enemies, you have got to keep up to some degree. I think a few squadrons of twin turbines and a couple of stealth in the next 5-7 years are a must have. Otherwise, the gap will go huge when India starts to get Rafale and T-50 types of jets


I thino the strategy seems to be to procure 16s to the amount that was orivinally planned and we have infrastructure for(max 110-120). Beyond that we wait and develop the JFT which to my and other members surprise is said to have more upgrade potential than J10 ( dont ask me why this has been said). We dont have anywhere to go for procurement other than China. So we will bide our time and react to the situation as it arises. The PAF high command has plan B and C sorted but the problem is lack of resources and even technology present with the provider. That is likely to improve and so should our supplies . The cash situation probably will remain dire. God I love my country!!!!
Araz

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## PhoneyMember

PAF may have got these for BVR capability and good price.These are old F-16 which never went for MLU.
Look down shoot down radar and full fledged night mission capability may be other good reasons?


----------



## SQ8

BATMAN said:


> Please, read my post # 304


That lists the day they were delivered to Jordon.. not their date of manufacture as you claimed to be 1997(assuming your typing 1979 was a typo). Nor does it show which of the lot.. peace falcon I or II is the one Pakistan is buying. Do you have that information?


----------



## PhoneyMember

Oscar said:


> That lists the day they were delivered to Jordon.. not their date of manufacture as you claimed to be 1997(assuming your typing 1979 was a typo). Nor does it show which of the lot.. peace falcon I or II is the one Pakistan is buying. Do you have that information?


Only peace falcon one and two were ADF converted.


----------



## BATMAN

Oscar said:


> That lists the day they were delivered to Jordon.. not their date of manufacture as you claimed to be 1997(assuming your typing 1979 was a typo). Nor does it show which of the lot.. peace falcon I or II is the one Pakistan is buying. Do you have that information?


 
I know, didn't i mentioned that those were delivered from US junk yard, also known as grave yard of aircrafts, aka AMARC ?
If those were deliverd to Jorday in 1997 from a grave yard, than certainly they were one of those early models build in early 80's.



fatman17 said:


> The Royal Jordanian Air Force operates a total of 64 F-16A/B aircraft, 16 of which are ADFs, while the remaining 39 are MLUs or have been modified to MLU standard.


----------



## PhoneyMember

number 671 TMAN said:


> I know, didn't i mentioned that those were delivered from US junk yard, also known as grave yard of aircrafts, aka AMARC ?
> If those were deliverd to US in 1997 from a grave yard, than certainly they were one of those early models build in early 80's.


Serial number 671-686 F-16A and #670 F-16B
These serial numbers were ADF and were delivered in 2003.
Pakistan is getting their falcons from this batch.


----------



## Superboy

PAF needs at least 100 F-16 / J-10 as its hi and at least 200 JF-17 as its lo.


----------



## That Guy

Lil Mathew said:


> This new move is against the PAF's proposed policy of maintaining a technical edge (or parity ) against numerical superiority of IAF.. That is PAF must required new platforms like J10 against IAF's aggressive modernisation..
> Mirage 2k upgrading to Mirage 2000-5 mk2 std(top end varient of m2k)..
> Mig 29s to Mig 29SMT/UPG (Top end varient of mig 29)..
> Let alone su30mki, super su,rafel etc..
> The problem here is the new acquisition eliminates the possibility of new platforms in Paf near future.. Because the buying of old f16s save some initial capital but requires massive upgrades and high maintanance cost..


The thing is that newer F-16s are still quite a formidable opponent to everything India has, even the Su-30s, so it's still a good purchase. We also shouldn't forget that India has yet to induct a single Rafale, which is why PAF was even thinking of buying the J-10. Considering recent developments, it's a decent choice.

Though, I DO agree with you when you suggest that PAF needs to start looking towards newer crafts. India isn't going to keep it's fleet as it is, and is actively looking to get better systems in it's fleet. If PAF doesn't preempt those purchases, it's going to fall behind rapidly.


----------



## Alphacharlie

That Guy said:


> *The thing is that newer F-16s are still quite a formidable opponent to everything India has*, even the Su-30s, so it's still a good purchase. We also shouldn't forget that India has yet to induct a single Rafale, which is why PAF was even thinking of buying the J-10. Considering recent developments, it's a decent choice.
> 
> Though, I DO agree with you when you suggest that PAF needs to start looking towards newer crafts. India isn't going to keep it's fleet as it is, and is actively looking to get better systems in it's fleet. If PAF doesn't preempt those purchases, it's going to fall behind rapidly.



newer F-16s are still quite a formidable opponent to everything India has.........

PERFECT EXAMPLE - TONGUE IN CHEEK STATEMENT.

CHEERS.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## PhoneyMember

Alphacharlie said:


> newer F-16s are still quite a formidable opponent to everything India has.........
> 
> PERFECT EXAMPLE - TONGUE & CHEEK STATEMENT.
> 
> CHEERS.


Indian Air force's supremacy in numbers and aircraft quality is nothing new.Has been there since day one.
But for some reason it hasn't done much favor to India,or we had seen IAF conducting surgical strikes every few months.
India is not Israel and Pakistan is not Palestine.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## fatman17

100 F-16s MLU'd, multi-role is a force to be reckoned with. if the financial situation wasnt that critical, this target would have been achieved by now. to have reached 76 under such conditions says a lot about the PAF's ability to ensure that minimum deterrance is available. a F-16 has been built for 8,000 hours. thats quite a lifetime.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Quwa

aziqbal said:


> Mark Sien your are not with the times Kashmir is not even on the agenda
> 
> US-Pak relationship is based on Pakistans war against Taliban and how Co-operative Pakistan on the core Afghanistan issues that's it
> 
> Also Pakistan needs to keep handing over Taliban members to US and the whole policy on members
> 
> The day Pakistan goes against US policy In the region Pakistan will be left under sanctions


Kashmir is on the agenda. Resolving it sits squarely with US interests in Afghanistan and the wider region. So long as India and Pakistan view Kashmir as part of their vital interests, the two will continue committing resources and fuelling tension. Fighting for Kashmir is only a matter of when, not an 'if.' To diffuse that the US needs the issue resolved, i.e. Indo-Pak ties normalized and Kashmir put to the side, for both countries.

fatman,

I think the PAF will end up with over 100 F-16 MLUs, it's only a matter of time. The real question for me is how many C/Ds it'll get its hands on over the next few years. The Block-50/52+ line will be in production for a few more years and there are loads of surplus/excess units about.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## SQ8

BATMAN said:


> I know, didn't i mentioned that those were delivered from US junk yard, also known as grave yard of aircrafts, aka AMARC ?
> If those were deliverd to Jorday in 1997 from a grave yard, than certainly they were one of those early models build in early 80's.



No. The AMARC is NOT the Junk yard of aircraft. Its name is *Aerospace Maintenance and Regeneration Group*
These are the activities it carries out. 

There are four categories of storage for planes at AMARG:


Long Term – Aircraft are kept intact for future use
Parts Reclamation – Aircraft are kept, picked apart and used for spare parts
Flying Hold – Aircraft are kept intact for shorter stays than Long Term
Excess of DoD needs – Aircraft are sold off whole or in parts
Some of the F-16s we received were also AMARG.


----------



## fatman17

February 19, 2014 by News Desk
*Pakistan Continues Buying Surplus F-16s – Adding 13 from Jordan*

*The Pakistani Air Force (PAF) has acquired a squadron of F-16 multi-role fighter aircraft from Jordan. The early production Block-15 fighter jets will be inducted inducted into the service in March 2014, next month, Pakistan’s TheNews reports.*





Two Royal Jordanian Air Force F-16s fly alongside a U.S. Air Force KC-135 Stratotanker aircraft while waiting to connect for fuel over Jordan. Photo: US Air Force

Of the fighters acquired from the Royal Jordanian Air Force, 12 of the aircraft are single seaters A models and one is a twin-seat F-16B. Jordan has recently acquired 15 similar aircraft – F-16A/B MLU from the Dutch Air Force, and expect these aircraft to be delivered in 2015. The aircraft Pakistan is receiving have also undergone MLU providing service and are cleared for 20 years operations or 3,000 flight hours on average. Pakistan has already received a number of F-16sВ 

Pakistan has been contemplating to acquire more used planes for the PAF from other countries while the induction of new production JF-17 Thunder continues. The JF-17 is a co-production of Pakistan and China.
Through the upgrade process carried out at the US Air Force Ogden Air Logistics Centre, structural upgrades were performed to extend the aircraft life from the designed 4,000 to 8,000 hours flying time. Other modifications include changes to the engine bay, to receive the upgraded Pratt and Whitney F100-220E engine. Most of Pakistan’s F-16s are of early generation A/B models, acquired from US surplus andВ upgraded through MLU. Some were delivered free of charge by the US Government.В The new acquisition will bring the Pakistani Air Force F-16 fleet to 76. Only 20 are of more modern make, namely F-16C and F-16C/D Block 52.




Pakistan Air Force from left to right: JF-17, F-16, F-7, A-5C and Mirage 5. Photo: PAFwallpapers.com

Through the years Pakistan has been a keen ‘collector’ of Dassault Mirage III/V fighter jets. Between 1967 and 1982В Islamabad bought 66 new Mirage III/V, but through the 1990s ‘collected’ over 130 of the fighters in the surplus market, from the French, Australian and Lebanese air forces. Many of these were modernized through the three phases ROSE program, improving avionics, weaponry and operational capabilities, associated with special missions, special weapons and night capabilities. The F-16, while adding many advanced capabilities, is not fulfilling many of these capabilities, therefore, it can replace the A-5C and F-7s in service, but not the Mirages.

Buying second hand fighters is one way for the Pakistani Air Force to manage the financial pressure that has limited its modernization since 2007. The acquisition of the JF-17 Thunder В remains the single, highest priority, for which Islamabad secured a Chinese loan to keep production on track at an annual rate of 18 aircraft per year with 50 (Block I)В jets in service. Defense News reported. Another significant investment was the acquisition of four Saab2000В Erieye early warning and control (AEW&C) aircraft for US$1 billion, the last of those aircraft was delivered in 2010.

Production of 50 Thunders of the second block began in December 2013. The Thunder Block II has improved avionics, weapons load and carriage capability, a data link and an electronic warfare suite, plus an in-flight refueling capability. With these enhancements the cost of the Thunder has increased from US$15 million to $25 million, according to Dawn. Pakistans requirement is for up to 250 planes to the F-7 and, eventually, Mirage III/5 fighter aircraft currently in service. The Thunder has already replaced the A-5C Fantan strike fighter with two squadrons.

While Pakistan is seeking relative parity with India, the PAF currently has no counterpart for India’s Su-30MKI, nor the future Rafale, (when and if the MMRCA is to be fielded). Pakistan has been considering buying Chinese FC-20 (J10) fighter planes they considered could be a fair match to the Rafale. However, it is now considered that Thunder Block III and more upgrades to their F-16s, bringing the Falcons to the Block52 level could satisfy the PAF requirements for the near term.

Pakistan and China are also working on a combat-capable, two-seat conversion trainer variant of the Thunder, which would meet Pakistan Air Force requirements for special missions and night attack, as well as improve export sales prospects for the aircraft. Further improvements are planned for the Block III, a version which is currently on paper, but could enter design phase in 2016.




PAF F-16A block 15 from 11 sqn is seen landing at Konya AB during Anatolian Eagle 2007. (TuAF photo)

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## trident2010

Any idea how much PAF paid for these 13 jets?


----------



## Mercenary

Apologies as if this topic may have already been answered previously but I didn't have the patience of reading the entire thread.

Will these 13 jets be upgraded be sent to Turkey to be updated to Block 50/52?


----------



## Lil Mathew

PhoneyMember said:


> Serial number 671-686 F-16A and #670 F-16B
> These serial numbers were ADF and were delivered in 2003.
> Pakistan is getting their falcons from this batch.


 
From where you got these serial numbers????
If these numbers are true, these are Peace falcon 2 aircrafts(ADF) recieved in 2003 and carried MLU(TUSAS facility in Ankara, Turkey.) in 2007-09.. First flight in RJAF in around 2011...
Then the news( only half) " The purchased aircraft were in good condition since they had attained Mid-Life Update (MLU) and they would be providing service for another 20 years with almost 3,000 hours on average available to them for flying." is true... Because these are almost in ground(storage) after 1994..... They served in US ANG (1982-1994) and retired after almost 3000 flying hours[Retired during mass f-16 retirement in 1994].. And was in AMARC from 1994 to2003.. Then in storage for MLU in RJAF from 2003-2011... 

Then the next paragraph makes confusion..."They have been modified into Air Defence Fighters (ADF) versions. The Ogden Air Logistics Centre performed structural upgrades to extend the aircraft life from the designed 4,000 to 8,000 hours flying time as part of the programme. They also modified the aircraft engine bay for the upgraded Pratt and Whitney F100-220E engine".. This sentence showing they are Peace falcon 1 aircrafts... Then these fighters are almost obsolete as they served almost 18 years after that upgrade in 1996-97....

But defenseindustrydaily stating about this like
" *Not only do they(Jordan) make some money with this sale, they also cut down on the number of RJAF F-16 ADFs that will need expensive mid-life upgrades. At least 2 of the F-16 ADFs have been lost in accidents, and their 5th and most recent F-16 accident took place on Jan 29/14.....*

This sentence confirming that these fighters are non MLU Peace Falcon 1 ADF planes.... Also RJAF get rid of these because of recent accidents... Then this deal is not so good as it seems because these fighters already in service for more than 30 years and needs massive upgrades... That will take another 2-3 yars and money..

Everyone saying this is a good move.. But is it really that good??? ... It only shows " the PAF is forced to accept these types of aircrafts now because of present economic conditions".... No one is discussing that..Strange...


----------



## Basel

Good news as more F-16s will allow PAF for better operational capabilities and in case of hostilities it will allow PAF to defend air space better hope PAF also get AIM9Xs for their F-16s so it will become more difficult for IAF to come in Pakistani border. More F-16s with Block-50/52+ standard will allow PAF to have enough jets to have dare to go in Indian territory for strike missions and put pressure on IAF although they will have numerical and technological advantage but arrival of more F-16s will increase IAFs problems and will decrease gap in tech.


----------



## Viper0011.

Lil Mathew said:


> But defenseindustrydaily stating about this like
> " *Not only do they(Jordan) make some money with this sale, they also cut down on the number of RJAF F-16 ADFs that will need expensive mid-life upgrades. At least 2 of the F-16 ADFs have been lost in accidents, and their 5th and most recent F-16 accident took place on Jan 29/14.....*
> This sentence confirming that these fighters are non MLU Peace Falcon 1 ADF planes.... Also RJAF get rid of these because of recent accidents... Then this deal is not so good as it seems because these fighters already in service for more than 30 years and needs massive upgrades... That will take another 2-3 yars and money..
> Everyone saying this is a good move.. But is it really that good??? ... It only shows " the PAF is forced to accept these types of aircrafts now because of present economic conditions".... No one is discussing that..Strange...



GAWWWDDDDD! Propaganda. Are you guys EVER happy? Whether it be the US, or China or Pakistan or anyone else. You guys JUST want to create flaws in everything? How about them Mig-21 BISONS (BISON = Bad Integration Shi-t ONly ) as pilots from other air forces call them????? Why don't you go change ALL Mig-21's and then come back and make the above comment. It seems that poor living standards in India are stopping you from replacing 1 to 1 jets? (Same silly argument that you made above?, you can see it ruins the whole effect of the argument by adding personal flavors).

Remember, USAF - ANG have other requirements and use for these planes than the rest of the world. Their flight time is less too like 3000 hours. After which, the jets are parked as they become second hand and are written off. BUT, these machines are well worthy to other countries. Like our local flight schools here still fly WWII era planes for training. Will you say that those planes can't fly as they are old???

These jets are AMRAAM capable and are the ADF version that was created to support BVR operations for interception (has the tech to support previous BVR options like the Sparrow and Phoenix and other long range older missiles) and the AMRAAMs fit RIGHT in. So whether you think these are a good or not a good buy.......for a force that has less than 100 top line BVR jets, it adds 13 more BVR capable interceptors. That is 10% increase OVERNIGHT (if the BVR-able jets were 130 in PAF's inventory). THAT is a HUGE addition and in a matter of days, not year, with immediate pilot availability also and support infrastructure ready.
Imagine how many jets they can take down before going down themselves. THAT should be your focus. Not how good or bad the deal feels to your stomach!

Reactions: Like Like:
9


----------



## Side-Winder

@orangzaib 

hi, welcome back dude, been missing your posts...


----------



## Meejee

orangzaib said:


> GAWWWDDDDD! Propaganda. Are you guys EVER happy? Whether it be the US, or China or Pakistan or anyone else. You guys JUST want to create flaws in everything? How about them Mig-21 BISONS (BISON = Bad Integration Shi-t ONly ) as pilots from other air forces call them????? Why don't you go change ALL Mig-21's and then come back and make the above comment. It seems that poor living standards in India are stopping you from replacing 1 to 1 jets? (Same silly argument that you made above?, you can see it ruins the whole effect of the argument by adding personal flavors).
> 
> Remember, USAF - ANG have other requirements and use for these planes than the rest of the world. Their flight time is less too like 3000 hours. After which, the jets are parked as they become second hand and are written off. BUT, these machines are well worthy to other countries. Like our local flight schools here still fly WWII era planes for training. Will you say that those planes can't fly as they are old???
> 
> These jets are AMRAAM capable and are the ADF version that was created to support BVR operations for interception (has the tech to support previous BVR options like the Sparrow and Phoenix and other long range older missiles) and the AMRAAMs fit RIGHT in. So whether you think these are a good or not a good buy.......for a force that has less than 100 top line BVR jets, it adds 13 more BVR capable interceptors. That is 10% increase OVERNIGHT (if the BVR-able jets were 130 in PAF's inventory). THAT is a HUGE addition and in a matter of days, not year, with immediate pilot availability also and support infrastructure ready.
> Imagine how many jets they can take down before going down themselves. THAT should be your focus. Not how good or bad the deal feels to your stomach!



Don't let others work you up. We know what this procurement means to PAF, what punch it adds. Some of us are privy to privileged information that cannot be divulged. Suffice to say there is some sort of thought process behind this deal.

I have been here for almost two years and look at my post count. I read and read and read and then I smile on some opinions and laugh on others. Others have a right to their opinion but again, don't let them work you up.

"Stay Cool n u'll Rule"

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> When at first we asked for these aircraft---we told them what these aircraft are going to be used for---and they are doing what they are designed to do. Strike strike strike and strike---.
> 
> You put results on the board---you got carte blanche----plus---what you are getting from this combat is experience that you can never have otherwise---. Live excercizes can only do so much for the pilot----actual combat is what really makes the difference.
> 
> As for the mileage on the aircraft---big deal---there are more from where these came from---. Plus in due time these aircraft will become outdated----so why not use them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Absolutely----and the prudence will only go as far as no first strike---. After that---once the gates of hell are opened---there will be no constraints. There will be no restrictions.
> 
> The Chuck Yeager's will be waiting in the wings to see how their equipment performed against the russian and the british equipment---israeli also.


so nice of you bro. for your time & effort ... Take Care


----------



## majesticpankaj

How come only one newspaper is reporting ?


----------



## That Guy

Alphacharlie said:


> newer F-16s are still quite a formidable opponent to everything India has.........
> 
> PERFECT EXAMPLE - TONGUE IN CHEEK STATEMENT.
> 
> CHEERS.


I didn't say better, I said formidable and that's true. The F-16 has decades of experience under it's belt, and is still one of the most advanced fighters in the world.

What did I say that was wrong?


----------



## PhoneyMember

That Guy said:


> I didn't say better, I said formidable and that's true. The F-16 has decades of experience under it's belt, and is still one of the most advanced fighters in the world.
> 
> What did I say that was wrong?


If you look at the spine of Block 52 it has been extended to make room for a plethora of sensors and avioniccs

vs.csccigsigi
IItI


----------



## That Guy

PhoneyMember said:


> If you look at the spine of Block 52 it has been extended to make room for a plethora of sensors and avioniccs
> 
> vs.csccigsigi
> IItI


okay....what does that have to do with my comment?


----------



## Viper0011.

Side-Winder said:


> @orangzaib
> 
> hi, welcome back dude, been missing your posts...



Thank you bro. I appreciate it. Someone cared to remember my brutally honest posts on here 



Meejee said:


> Don't let others work you up.
> "Stay Cool n u'll Rule"



Thank you. I wasn't worked up although the post might suggest that. I don't appreciate it when people get out of facts and introduce their personal biases and agendas in a factual discussion. Everyone has a right to their opinion. But opinion and propaganda are two different things 

Does anyone know when the current MLU program ends? It's been pushed out to the next year but what's the completion date?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Donatello

Well, it's not that F-16 is outdated. Yes it might be outperformed by the Rafale/Typhoon/Su30s agility, the main thing is, F-16s with AIM120 and good radars would not want to dogfight. As long as i can see my enemy and strike first, its all well. And F-16 in BVR is very good at it. It's leaps and bounds better overall from the initial BLK15 models.


----------



## PhoneyMember

Donatello said:


> Well, it's not that F-16 is outdated. Yes it might be outperformed by the Rafale/Typhoon/Su30s agility, the main thing is, F-16s with AIM120 and good radars would not want to dogfight. As long as i can see my enemy and strike first, its all well. And F-16 in BVR is very good at it. It's leaps and bounds better overall from the initial BLK15 models.


BVR engagement depending on technology . But dogfights always depending on pilot skills.



That Guy said:


> okay....what does that have to do with my comment?


That Block 52 and MKI are a match.


----------



## That Guy

PhoneyMember said:


> That Block 52 and MKI are a match.



I never said they were a match, I said formidable. The F-16 obviously doesn't have the same capabilities as the MKI, but that doesn't mean the F-16 would be shot down easily by the MKI. The MKI has yet to prove it's mettle in actual combat, but the F-16 has decades of experience, so don't get ahead of yourself.


----------



## Alphacharlie

That Guy said:


> I didn't say better, I said formidable and that's true. The F-16 has decades of experience under it's belt, and is still one of the most advanced fighters in the world.
> 
> What did I say that was wrong?



Let`s hit the Nail on Head, Gentleman....

- PAF has 19.5 Fighter Sqns.
- F16 Comprise 3 Sqn. - 2Sqn Block 15 A/B and 1 Sqn Bock 52
- F16 Jordan are yet again, Block 15 A/B
- Yanks are they Selling you - AIM -9/AIM-7/AIM-120 C-7
- Purchage of 13 Block 15s will lead to 4th Sqn

2 F16 A/BSqns - 
-Turkish Upgrade - will not lead to change to APG 68 (V- 5/ V-4) Radar
-Will the Engines for Block 15 be changed to F110-GE-129
-Will the EW pods be changed to ALQ-131 _Block_ II
If none of above Core systems will be changed as part of Turkish Upgrade then My Friend your last Statemet was a "Pure Tounge in Cheek Comment". 4 Sqns wont make a Difference.

Statement -
1) MIG21 Bison with GCR and Phalacon Support is Quite a Formidable system.
2) My Israeli Brats have also wispered some codes in my ear. In return for some favours...

Statement - My FOE is China, W.A.C & S.W.A.C is ample to Manage Paf

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Zarvan

That Guy said:


> I never said they were a match, I said formidable. The F-16 obviously doesn't have the same capabilities as the MKI, but that doesn't mean the F-16 would be shot down easily by the MKI. The MKI has yet to prove it's mettle in actual combat, but the F-16 has decades of experience, so don't get ahead of yourself.


Sir F-16 BLOCK 52 is far better than Sukhoi sir and if we are able to upgrade these Jets close to 52 the kind of training our guys have they would create havoc but we need to improve our economy and try to get J-10 C because that is a deadly machine


----------



## HRK

Alphacharlie said:


> Let`s hit the Nail on Head, Gentleman....
> 
> 2 F16 A/BSqns -
> -Turkish Upgrade - will not lead to change to APG 68 (V- 5/ V-4) Radar
> -Will the Engiens for Block 15 be changed to F110-GE-129
> -Will the EW pods be changed to ALQ-131 _Block_ II



*F-16A/B Mid-Life Update Modification Kits*

The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of 60 F-16A/B MLU and Falcon Star Structural Service Life Enhancement kits consisting of:

APG-68v9 with Synthetic Aperture Radar or the APG-66(V)2 radar

*21 ALQ-131 Block II Electronic Countermeasures Pods* without the Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM); or ALQ-184 Electronic Countermeasures Pods without DRFM;
*Item 4: F-16A/B Engine Modifications*

*14* F100-PW-220E engines
Link : Billions to Upgrade and Up-arm Pakistan’s F-16s


----------



## PhoneyMember

PAC Kamra can upgrade the older F-100 engines to 220E standard.


----------



## Alphacharlie

HRK said:


> *F-16A/B Mid-Life Update Modification Kits*
> 
> The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of 60 F-16A/B MLU and Falcon Star Structural Service Life Enhancement kits consisting of:
> 
> APG-68v9 with Synthetic Aperture Radar or the APG-66(V)2 radar
> 
> *21 ALQ-131 Block II Electronic Countermeasures Pods* without the Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM); or ALQ-184 Electronic Countermeasures Pods without DRFM;
> *Item 4: F-16A/B Engine Modifications*
> 
> *14* F100-PW-220E engines
> Link : Billions to Upgrade and Up-arm Pakistan’s F-16s



Gentleman - Has the Request been approved ? Everyone is aware of this Litrature on Net.


----------



## F86 Saber

Alphacharlie said:


> Gentleman - Has the Request been approved ? Everyone is aware of this Litrature on Net.


 
No it wasn't, we are sending the F16's to Turkey to get washed and scrubbed. We heard they use women in bikini's for the job.

Did you bother reading the article?



> but the request for 36 new F-16 Block 50/52s is now going ahead, along with new weapons, engine modifications, and upgrade kits for Pakistan’s older F-16 A/Bs

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## Zarvan

F86 Saber said:


> No it wasn't, we are sending the F16's to Turkey to get washed and scrubbed. We heard they use women in bikini's for the job.
> 
> Did you bother reading the article?


But I heard they are not wearing any top

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Umair Nawaz

We r still wasting our money on this crap then buying J10s on soft lone from China.


----------



## Zarvan

Umair Nawaz said:


> We r still wasting our money on this crap then buying J10s on soft lone from China.


Well first of all they are not crap secondly they would get upgraded to close to BLOCK 52 and third yes we should go for J-10 C but still we should have at least 3 Fighter Jets or I mean 3 kind of Fighter Jets so if we can have around 100 F-16 fully upgraded along with JF-17 BLOCK II more than 250 and 100 + J-10 C we would be a force to reckon


----------



## Alphacharlie

F86 Saber said:


> No it wasn't, we are sending the F16's to Turkey to get washed and scrubbed. We heard they use women in bikini's for the job.
> 
> Did you bother reading the article?



Bightman - Where is the Congress Approval to Upgrade your Weapon ?


----------



## rohailmalhi

Umair Nawaz said:


> We r still wasting our money on this crap then buying J10s on soft lone from China.



What is more suitable . A plane which is already in service with PAF with all the ground infra plus the skills which are being developed by pilots over years of extensive training and pratice .

OR

A new plane which PAF have no knowledge have not infra on ground , with pilots having no expertise in flying that plane.

Expertise are not developed in a day or 2 . It take years of continuous exercise and practice to develop skills and tactics .

wont it be more sensible to buy a plane on which you have experience than buy a plane of which you know nothing.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Umair Nawaz

This deal and the support for it by our senior team in this forum shows how much short sighted we as a Nation are.


----------



## Donatello

Umair Nawaz said:


> This deal and the support for it by our senior team in this forum shows how much short sighted we as a Nation are.



It's a tested platform. We don't have to wait for any issues to sort out or production delays, delivery schedule. All 13 of the aircraft would be available at the same time. J-10s cannot offer that.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## fatman17

Umair Nawaz said:


> This deal and the support for it by our senior team in this forum shows how much short sighted we as a Nation are.


 
how so please.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Developereo

rohailmalhi said:


> What is more suitable . A plane which is already in service with PAF with all the ground infra plus the skills which are being developed by pilots over years of extensive training and pratice .
> 
> OR
> 
> A new plane which PAF have no knowledge have not infra on ground , with pilots having no expertise in flying that plane.
> 
> Expertise are not developed in a day or 2 . It take years of continuous exercise and practice to develop skills and tactics .
> 
> wont it be more sensible to buy a plane on which you have experience than buy a plane of which you know nothing.



*IF* we are planning to get J-10s anyway at some point, would it not make more sense to start developing the necessary capabilities and expertise right now?

This seems to be a period of relative calm in the India-Pakistan relationship although, of course, one can never predict the future.

To grow, one must come out of the comfort zone..


----------



## Inception-06

Hey guys can someone make a List how man F-16 we will have and which version and how many we have now ? It woul be very nice and helpfull !


----------



## Donatello

Developereo said:


> *IF* we are planning to get J-10s anyway at some point, would it not make more sense to start developing the necessary capabilities and expertise right now?
> 
> This seems to be a period of relative calm in the India-Pakistan relationship although, of course, one can never predict the future.
> 
> To grow, one must come out of the comfort zone..



Sir jee, no funds for another program. JF-17 is keeping PAC and PAF busy. PAF is inducting and integrating more F-16s (BVR capable) and JF-17s along with their networking via ZDK-03 and Erieye. That's a massive undertaking. I don't think PAF has dealt with sudden infusion of such technology in the past.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## HRK

Zarvan said:


> But I heard they are not wearing any top



Oye disco molvi ....

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Zarvan

HRK said:


> Oye disco molvi ....


In another word Mard Bacha stay on topic guys

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## araz

Meejee said:


> Don't let others work you up. We know what this procurement means to PAF, what punch it adds. Some of us are privy to privileged information that cannot be divulged. Suffice to say there is some sort of thought process behind this deal.
> 
> I have been here for almost two years and look at my post count. I read and read and read and then I smile on some opinions and laugh on others. Others have a right to their opinion but again, don't let them work you up.
> 
> "Stay Cool n u'll Rule"


 I think this is very selfish of you. To sit on the sidelines and not venture an opinion is not a very healthy attitude. If knowledge is there and it can be shared it should be shared. If it cant be shared then you have no business on a public forum .So either SHARE OR STAY OUT!! It is hypocritical to say you have previleged information and then keep it from people. How do we even know whether you are not just boasting..
REGARDS#
Araz



orangzaib said:


> Thank you bro. I appreciate it. Someone cared to remember my brutally honest posts on here
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you. I wasn't worked up although the post might suggest that. I don't appreciate it when people get out of facts and introduce their personal biases and agendas in a factual discussion. Everyone has a right to their opinion. But opinion and propaganda are two different things
> 
> Does anyone know when the current MLU program ends? It's been pushed out to the next year but what's the completion date?


 Aurangzeb
We may not have said it but you were missed. We dont mind a bit of introspection. Man it is good for one to not be on cloud 9 all the time and remain firmly grounded.
Araz

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## rohailmalhi

Developereo said:


> *IF* we are planning to get J-10s anyway at some point, would it not make more sense to start developing the necessary capabilities and expertise right now?
> 
> This seems to be a period of relative calm in the India-Pakistan relationship although, of course, one can never predict the future.
> 
> To grow, one must come out of the comfort zone..



IF we are planning to buy them then sure , but PAF is not going to buy them (from their current purchase they have shown that).

and from PAF perspective I think its wondrful decision not to go for a new platform that does not offer much . (Keeping in mind JF-17 & F-16s) .I see it as wise & excellent decision by PAF.

I will be better if we can get our hands on more F-16s in coming years. Benefits would be no divided attention , more focused on JF-17 program and extra money can be used on pilot training and other upgrades of JF-17.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## araz

Umair Nawaz said:


> We r still wasting our money on this crap then buying J10s on soft lone from China.


 Umair .
Your question has been answered and the logic of buying older F16s has been discussed to death. If you still want to maintain that they are junk give us a cogent reason and then we can talk. J10B will not give you anything more that the F16s cannot provide now and the JFT cannot provide with upgrade.



Alphacharlie said:


> Bightman - Where is the Congress Approval to Upgrade your Weapon ?


 The original request has been approvedby the congress. We dont need to go to the congress for every nut and bolt that we buy.. Feel free to keep your tongue in your cheek.
Araz



Umair Nawaz said:


> This deal and the support for it by our senior team in this forum shows how much short sighted we as a Nation are.


 It is not a question of shortsightedness. It is a combination of resource constraint and lack of options. As I said The J10B does not offer us that much more than the 16s now and the JFT in future. there are problems in integrating a newer platform as against buying a platform which has infrastructure established.
Araz



Ulla said:


> Hey guys can someone make a List how man F-16 we will have and which version and how many we have now ? It woul be very nice and helpfull !


 at the moment18 Block 52s (12C+6D). Rest are Block 15s(31) and 15 OCUs(14). These 13-16 are OCUs as well.
Araz

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Lil Mathew

orangzaib said:


> GAWWWDDDDD! Propaganda. Are you guys EVER happy? Whether it be the US, or China or Pakistan or anyone else. You guys JUST want to create flaws in everything? How about them Mig-21 BISONS (BISON = Bad Integration Shi-t ONly ) as pilots from other air forces call them????? Why don't you go change ALL Mig-21's and then come back and make the above comment. It seems that poor living standards in India are stopping you from replacing 1 to 1 jets? (Same silly argument that you made above?, you can see it ruins the whole effect of the argument by adding personal flavors).
> 
> Remember, USAF - ANG have other requirements and use for these planes than the rest of the world. Their flight time is less too like 3000 hours. After which, the jets are parked as they become second hand and are written off. BUT, these machines are well worthy to other countries. Like our local flight schools here still fly WWII era planes for training. Will you say that those planes can't fly as they are old???
> 
> These jets are AMRAAM capable and are the ADF version that was created to support BVR operations for interception (has the tech to support previous BVR options like the Sparrow and Phoenix and other long range older missiles) and the AMRAAMs fit RIGHT in. So whether you think these are a good or not a good buy.......for a force that has less than 100 top line BVR jets, it adds 13 more BVR capable interceptors. That is 10% increase OVERNIGHT (if the BVR-able jets were 130 in PAF's inventory). THAT is a HUGE addition and in a matter of days, not year, with immediate pilot availability also and support infrastructure ready.
> Imagine how many jets they can take down before going down themselves. THAT should be your focus. Not how good or bad the deal feels to your stomach!



The main criterias for a buy are-
1. Requirement -Both now and FUTURE.. Here j10 is the winner when we look forward..
2. Availability- aircraft, spares, upgrades,services.. Here best option is j10.. Bcos china is a better ally and room for future upgrades against already matured f16.. 
3. Money available- capital cost, your above points like pilot availability and support infrastructure etc.. 
4. Durability, quality, new techs- j10 is better than these 30 yr old f16 ADFs.. 
So the point 3 that is 'money' is favourable here (including your points).. What that means? The PAF forced to accept these types of planes in 2014 because of bad economic conditions.. 
Your points about Mig 21s are not relevant as we are replacing them with new advanced rafales.. Our planes mirage, mig, sukhoi all are upgrading with latest available upgrades.. 
Do you have any other point than money bro..

1. 1979 planes which are almost active in 30 years..
2. These planes are extensively used by two air forces.. 
3. Third handing over that also from a second class air force (RJAF - itself alwayz buys second hand).. I think only Romania (very small air force) done thats b4 from portugal (ex USAF planes).. But that air crafts are better than this..


----------



## Donatello

Lil Mathew said:


> The main criterias for a buy are-
> 1. Requirement -Both now and FUTURE.. Here j10 is the winner when we look forward..
> 2. Availability- aircraft, spares, upgrades,services.. Here best option is j10.. Bcos china is a better ally and room for future upgrades against already matured f16..
> 3. Money available- capital cost, your above points like pilot availability and support infrastructure etc..
> 4. Durability, quality, new techs- j10 is better than these 30 yr old f16 ADFs..
> So the point 3 that is 'money' is favourable here (including your points).. What that means? The PAF forced to accept these types of planes in 2014 because of bad economic conditions..
> Your points about Mig 21s are not relevant as we are replacing them with new advanced rafales.. Our planes mirage, mig, sukhoi all are upgrading with latest available upgrades..
> Do you have any other point than money bro..
> 
> 1. 1979 planes which are almost active in 30 years..
> 2. These planes are extensively used by two air forces..
> 3. Third handing over that also from a second class air force (RJAF - itself alwayz buys second hand).. I think only Romania (very small air force) done thats b4 from portugal (ex USAF planes).. But that air crafts are better than this..



If you put as much effort in your LCA as you did in writing this post, gosh, god knows where IAF would be.

Please don't troll. Go through the thread. This is not a F-16 vs J-10 thread. It is for PAF acquisition of Jordanian F-16s.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Viper0011.

Let me answer in order:
1: Requirements: Are you coming up with PAF's requirements? They have them and that's why these birds were bought. Unless you can speak on behalf of PAF's air chief?
2: How is J-10 the best option for support, spares and availability? The aircraft has NOT been inducted, no support facility exists. While F-16's have a ton of spare and facilities already working (are you smoking stuff that you shouldn't be on bro???)
3: Money available: Well.....if they paid for it, the money was available. Will you sell me your car without getting paid for it?
4: Durability: J-10 hasn't even been tested in combat. How is it better than a machine that has seen intense combat for past 4+ decades against almost all kinds of enemies.....?
The PAF would always LOVE to have more F-16's. There wasn't any forcing of those. They would have them around 110 but they are slowly moving due to less funding. But there is no shoving down their throat or forceful acceptance. This is where you guys from India leave facts and get in the world of lala land and play the propaganda!
My point against Mig-21 isn't invalid. It sure is, when you get rid of the flying coffins all the way, come make comments about others. And trust me, upgrading a deathbed with LCD TV and a music system ......still makes it a deathbed. The upgrades done to so many older Mig-21's.....your own pilots still call them the flying coffins.

The rest of the comment about second class air force and used plane is just your own personal bias. These will take down on average 1.5 to 2 jets per plane. That's 20-26 enemy jets on the line worth a few billion (some brand new and upgraded too). That's what I am talking about. The rest of your comment is just a haze in the maze 



Lil Mathew said:


> The main criterias for a buy are-
> 1. Requirement -Both now and FUTURE.. Here j10 is the winner when we look forward..
> 2. Availability- aircraft, spares, upgrades,services.. Here best option is j10.. Bcos china is a better ally and room for future upgrades against already matured f16..
> 3. Money available- capital cost, your above points like pilot availability and support infrastructure etc..
> 4. Durability, quality, new techs- j10 is better than these 30 yr old f16 ADFs..
> So the point 3 that is 'money' is favourable here (including your points).. What that means? The PAF forced to accept these types of planes in 2014 because of bad economic conditions..
> Your points about Mig 21s are not relevant as we are replacing them with new advanced rafales.. Our planes mirage, mig, sukhoi all are upgrading with latest available upgrades..
> Do you have any other point than money bro..
> 
> 1. 1979 planes which are almost active in 30 years..
> 2. These planes are extensively used by two air forces..
> 3. Third handing over that also from a second class air force (RJAF - itself alwayz buys second hand).. I think only Romania (very small air force) done thats b4 from portugal (ex USAF planes).. But that air crafts are better than this..

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## Lil Mathew

Donatello said:


> If you put as much effort in your LCA as you did in writing this post, gosh, god knows where IAF would be.
> 
> Please don't troll. Go through the thread. This is not a F-16 vs J-10 thread. It is for PAF acquisition of Jordanian F-16s.


ha ha.. Our LCAs are already awesome sir..
We are not trolling.. We are discussing .. Na?? If we only post about acquisition, it will end up in 2-3 news sources with vague information.. We have to develop it, na??.. Details of aircrafts.. It's abilities as well as limitations.. About deal.. It's positives negetive.. Other possible options.. Its adv and disadvantages.. 
Also we add some debating mood, it will be interesting,na?? .. Defence or discussion forum =(fun+info)..


----------



## SQ8

Lil Mathew said:


> ha ha.. Our LCAs are already awesome sir..
> We are not trolling.. We are discussing .. Na?? If we only post about acquisition, it will end up in 2-3 news sources with vague information.. We have to develop it, na??.. Details of aircrafts.. It's abilities as well as limitations.. About deal.. It's positives negetive.. Other possible options.. Its adv and disadvantages..
> Also we add some debating mood, it will be interesting,na?? .. Defence or discussion forum =(fun+info)..


In all of this please try not to be repetitve in arguments. 
Eventually one gets irritated by the "Sky is blue" "Sky is black" discussions when no side agrees to it. 
Agree to disagree and move on.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Lil Mathew

Oscar said:


> In all of this please try not to be repetitve in arguments.
> Eventually one gets irritated by the "Sky is blue" "Sky is black" discussions when no side agrees to it.
> Agree to disagree and move on.


But if you check closely more than 95% percentage posts are repeating same things (good move, bvr, total 76,mlu,capable as blk52) .. A voice against it is so irritating?? A good post with valuable points can easily shut my mouth (there are points) .. Bt everybody repeating and repeating same points (cost,infra etc).. So I continued.. So i'm disagreing and moving on..

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Dr. Strangelove

i havent visited this thread in a week
can someone tell me these 13 f 16s are bvr capable or not


----------



## SQ8

Lil Mathew said:


> But if you check closely more than 95% percentage posts are repeating same things (good move, bvr, total 76,mlu,capable as blk52) .. A voice against it is so irritating?? A good post with valuable points can easily shut my mouth (there are points) .. Bt everybody repeating and repeating same points (cost,infra etc).. So I continued.. So i'm disagreing and moving on..



Well, you havent been able to prove your points either... and you arent the only ones with those points...others are too. And they are irritating as well. The problem is with people not bothering to read a few pages ago. They usually end up stating what is already being said. 
You will also find the counterpoint to your ideas in there as well. If you read through.


----------



## PoKeMon

orangzaib said:


> The rest of the comment about second class air force and used plane is just your own personal bias. These will take down on average 1.5 to 2 jets per plane. That's 20-26 enemy jets on the line worth a few billion (some brand new and upgraded too). That's what I am talking about. The rest of your comment is just a haze in the maze



So what makes you come to 1.5 to 2 jets per plane figure? Please illustrate the enemy country and the fighters involved you believe will get bundled by a block 15 turned into block 42 F-16s. Which brand new you believe will come second in an engagement with RJAF's F-16s? I am willing to know the justification if it is anything other than super duper pilots/men behind machine theory.


----------



## PoKeMon

Meejee said:


> Bachay nu mircha lag gaiyan nai. Anyhow, my reply to your comments is provided below in red.



So you are privy to lot but you will not share (who knows the truth).

You are too intelligent but will not make an intellectual comment.

You know things which are best to be left with you.

Then you come and read the post from "ignorant" ones in likes of @araz and laugh/smile clandestinely and have a ridiculing grim on your face.

So sir, let us know the very purpose of your existence on this platform? To mock and laugh away and keep telling you know what one should not know?


----------



## araz

IND_PAK said:


> So what makes you come to 1.5 to 2 jets per plane figure? Please illustrate the enemy country and the fighters involved you believe will get bundled by a block 15 turned into block 42 F-16s. Which brand new you believe will come second in an engagement with RJAF's F-16s? I am willing to know the justification if it is anything other than super duper pilots/men behind machine theory.


Oh bhai.
In very simple words we can only afford this , we were offered this, we liked it and bought it. You dont like it fine just move on. There can only be that many arguments for and against a purchase. They have been discussed. These F16will never fit in your strategic line of thought because your priorities are different to ours. This is why you will go for Rafale MKIs and perhaps in future if the deal is right then a Fifth generation fighter. We will always be reactive in our purchases even if we dont have any issues with finances. Affordability is the name of the game for us . At this point in time this is a word your nation does not know. Incidently you are also upgrading your M2ks and MKIs so it is alright to go down the line of what suits you. These second hand bl.15aOCUs are what suits us.
If you want we can look at the rationale behind these purchases but it seems you are just here to argue.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## That Guy

Zarvan said:


> Sir F-16 BLOCK 52 is far better than Sukhoi sir and if we are able to upgrade these Jets close to 52 the kind of training our guys have they would create havoc but we need to improve our economy and try to get J-10 C because that is a deadly machine


Which Sukhoi? If you're talking about Su-30, I don't know about that. They've never fought each other, but considering their specs, Su-30 does have it's advantages.



Alphacharlie said:


> Let`s hit the Nail on Head, Gentleman....
> 
> - PAF has 19.5 Fighter Sqns.
> - F16 Comprise 3 Sqn. - 2Sqn Block 15 A/B and 1 Sqn Bock 52
> - F16 Jordan are yet again, Block 15 A/B
> - Yanks are they Selling you - AIM -9/AIM-7/AIM-120 C-7
> - Purchage of 13 Block 15s will lead to 4th Sqn
> 
> 2 F16 A/BSqns -
> -Turkish Upgrade - will not lead to change to APG 68 (V- 5/ V-4) Radar
> -Will the Engines for Block 15 be changed to F110-GE-129
> -Will the EW pods be changed to ALQ-131 _Block_ II
> If none of above Core systems will be changed as part of Turkish Upgrade then My Friend your last Statemet was a "Pure Tounge in Cheek Comment". 4 Sqns wont make a Difference.
> 
> Statement -
> 1) MIG21 Bison with GCR and Phalacon Support is Quite a Formidable system.
> 2) My Israeli Brats have also wispered some codes in my ear. In return for some favours...
> 
> Statement - My FOE is China, W.A.C & S.W.A.C is ample to Manage Paf


Even a single squad can make a difference. The US has proven this over and over again.

Having said that, we know next to nothing about the new purchase, or if they'll be upgraded, so we'll have to wait until next month. So no, my statement wasn't tongue in cheek.


----------



## BATMAN

That Guy said:


> considering their specs, Su-30 does have it's advantages.


 
I don't see its advantages, other than your friend of friend logic.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## That Guy

BATMAN said:


> I don't see its advantages, other than your friend of friend logic.


I'm not going to spell it out for you, there is plenty of info on the forums, just look for it yourself.

Or are you once again going to ignore everything I say and stick to your narrative?


----------



## BATMAN

That Guy said:


> I'm not going to spell it out for you, there is plenty of info on the forums, just look for it yourself.
> 
> Or are you once again going to ignore everything I say and stick to your narrative?


 
If you can't support your claim than don't even mention it... there's plenty of info. that the BVR of SU-30 (glorified SU-27) have poor seeker and its hit rate is very poor.
RCS of SU-27/30 is the perhaps twice of JF-17, but you are free to see it as an advantage.
SU-30 is only good for bombing missions and carrying load and fuel, but without smart and efficient wepons, this quality go down to zero.
Turn around time of SU-30 is so more than twice of JF-17, translating for PAF as more a/c in air.
JF-17 can have major overhaul at forward airbases, and double engine SU-30 need to send its parts to Russia for service.
Practically, we have seen how F-16 pilots were 'drilling brain out' of SU-30 with its guns.
I also know you like to glorify the Israeli avionics, but its RCS takes every thing away.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## That Guy

BATMAN said:


> If you can't support your claim than don't even mention it... there's plenty of info. that the BVR of SU-30 (glorified SU-27) have poor seeker and its hit rate is very poor.
> RCS of SU-27/30 is the perhaps twice of JF-17, but you are free to see it as an advantage.
> SU-30 is only good for bombing missions and carrying load and fuel, but without smart and efficient wepons, this quality go down to zero.
> Turn around time of SU-30 is so more than twice of JF-17, translating for PAF as more a/c in air.
> JF-17 can have major overhaul at forward airbases, and double engine SU-30 need to send its parts to Russia for service.
> Practically, we have seen how F-16 pilots were 'drilling brain out' of SU-30 with its guns.
> I also know you like to glorify the Israeli avionics, but its RCS takes every thing away.


When have I glorified Israeli avionics? Not only are your posting misinformation, but you're outright lying about me.

Like I said before, the information is already publicly available, I'm not going to waste time explaining in extreme detail why you're wrong when you've proven to me in the past that you don't listen to anything I say and stick with your flawed narrative.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## SQ8

Alphacharlie said:


> Let`s hit the Nail on Head, Gentleman....
> 
> - PAF has 19.5 Fighter Sqns.
> - F16 Comprise 3 Sqn. - 2Sqn Block 15 A/B and 1 Sqn Bock 52
> - F16 Jordan are yet again, Block 15 A/B
> - Yanks are they Selling you - AIM -9/AIM-7/AIM-120 C-7
> - Purchage of 13 Block 15s will lead to 4th Sqn
> 
> 2 F16 A/BSqns -
> -Turkish Upgrade - will not lead to change to APG 68 (V- 5/ V-4) Radar
> -Will the Engines for Block 15 be changed to F110-GE-129
> -Will the EW pods be changed to ALQ-131 _Block_ II
> If none of above Core systems will be changed as part of Turkish Upgrade then My Friend your last Statemet was a "Pure Tounge in Cheek Comment". 4 Sqns wont make a Difference.
> 
> Statement -
> 1) MIG21 Bison with GCR and Phalacon Support is Quite a Formidable system.
> 2) My Israeli Brats have also wispered some codes in my ear. In return for some favours...
> 
> Statement - My FOE is China, W.A.C & S.W.A.C is ample to Manage Paf



Block 15 is not going to take in GE engines as its bay is only fitted for PW-F-100. The engine remains the same. 
The EW pods are the ITT ALQ-211 which are better than the ALQ-131
Please read
Exelis - AIDEWS

Radar is to be changed to APG-68 V(9).. again read before going on a jingositic posting tirade.

statement
1) jingoistic speculative bullshit
2) Not even speculation.. pure bull SHIT.

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## BATMAN

That Guy said:


> When have I glorified Israeli avionics? Not only are your posting misinformation, but you're outright lying about me.
> 
> Like I said before, the information is already publicly available, I'm not going to waste time explaining in extreme detail why you're wrong when you've proven to me in the past that you don't listen to anything I say and stick with your flawed narrative.


 
You are glorifying SU-30, in your posts regularly, without any supportive material, it is natural to get intercepted once a while.
When IAF chief himself, has declared it 'khokha' without Israili avionoics, than i was thinking, what else are you going to mention worthwhile?
So, do not over act, while beign an official. Every day you bunch, lie about me.
Again, it is you who have ignored, the truth i wrote about your SU-30 and i learned this info., only over internet, which you probably overlooked.
USAF pilot describes IAF Su-30MKI performance at Red Flag-08 - The DEW Line
Do you have any thing more authentic and credible?

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## That Guy

BATMAN said:


> You are glorifying SU-30, in your posts regularly, without any supportive material, it is natural to get intercepted once a while.
> When IAF chief himself, has declared it 'khokha' without Israili avionoics, than i was thinking, what else are you going to mention worthwhile?
> So, do not over act, while beign an official. Every day you guys lie about me.
> Again, it is you who have ignored, the truth i wrote about your SU-30 and i learned this info., only over internet, which you probably overlooked.
> USAF pilot describes IAF Su-30MKI performance at Red Flag-08 - The DEW Line
> Do you have any thing more authentic and credible?


You said I was glorifying Israeli avionics, now you're saying I'm glorifying Su-30. Really, where are you getting this from? I don't understand how your mind works, are you seriously using strawman arguments to prove your point?

Again, this info is all available on the forums, a simple google search will prove it. A thread was started 4 years ago debating this very thing...

Pakistan's New F-16 Block 52 vs SU 30 MKI.

There is more info on other sites...

Sukhoi 30MKI versus F-15 and F-16 - F-16 versus XYZ

Again, I'm not going to explain shit to you, when you can look for info on this common knowledge yourself. Would you ask someone to prove to you that air exists? No, it's common knowledge.

This is my last reply to you. Don't bother me again.

-That Guy


----------



## BATMAN

That Guy said:


> You said I was glorifying Israeli avionics, now you're saying I'm glorifying Su-30. Really, where are you getting this from? I don't understand how your mind works, are you seriously using strawman arguments to prove your point?
> 
> Again, this info is all available on the forums, a simple google search will prove it. A thread was started 4 years ago debating this very thing...
> 
> Pakistan's New F-16 Block 52 vs SU 30 MKI.
> 
> There is more info on other sites...
> 
> Sukhoi 30MKI versus F-15 and F-16 - F-16 versus XYZ
> 
> Again, I'm not going to explain shit to you, when you can look for info on this common knowledge yourself. Would you ask someone to prove to you that air exists? No, it's common knowledge.
> 
> This is my last reply to you. Don't bother me again.
> 
> -That Guy


 
Get over the bigdeal... i further explained what i meant when i wrote _'you like to_'

your links have no value, those are discussions on speculative specs. again of Israeli avionics, and even between those discussion, every one had ot accpet that SU-30 would be shot down by F-16 in both BVR and WVR battels. Actually, in redflag it was proven beyond doubt.
Now, if SU-30 was so superior than IAF chief should have not termed it 'khokha' and seeked other suppliers to counter, what they call the game changer.
SU-30 at max is a bomb truck and go search internet, what went behind its design philosophy of making it as such.


----------



## PhoneyMember

Developereo said:


> *IF* we are planning to get J-10s anyway at some point, would it not make more sense to start developing the necessary capabilities and expertise right now?
> 
> This seems to be a period of relative calm in the India-Pakistan relationship although, of course, one can never predict the future.
> 
> To grow, one must come out of the comfort zone..


J-10 program is tied to Indin mmrca and Chinese ability to produce enough WS-10 engines.
M


----------



## Viper0011.

IND_PAK said:


> So what makes you come to 1.5 to 2 jets per plane figure? Please illustrate the enemy country and the fighters involved you believe will get bundled by a block 15 turned into block 42 F-16s. Which brand new you believe will come second in an engagement with RJAF's F-16s? I am willing to know the justification if it is anything other than super duper pilots/men behind machine theory.



The mighty IAF is what I was referring to. Between a mix of Jaguars, Migs of different kinds, Mirages and then SU-30's....you'll get 1.5 to 2 jets average. Remember, they are playing defense and you'll be the offensive force. It's not a matter of size and how many bombs you can take with you, it's JUST a matter of AMRAAM's and BVR's being fired and dog fights, either one of them is an advantage to PAF in this case due to proximity to the border. Each one of these F-16's on a defensive sortie will have 4-6 AMRAAM's before going to a dog fight. PAF's always been known to be a good fighting force, specifically close-in fights and these jets are ADF versions.... 
Your incoming package sure will have interceptors, but the strike package will take a hit. I can't argue here all night without you understanding the defense - offense strategy. But I let you think about it.

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## PhoneyMember

A war is never one on one. Its not that single PAF F16 or thunder will face single IAF mig or sukhoi.Pakistan has more AEW&C per square mile and per jet fighter than India. intact India at present has only one AEW&C more than Pakistan.For that reason we can forget Indian planes have better radars as PAF has networked AEW&C with ground based air defense and fighter jets.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## That Guy

Alphacharlie said:


> Moot Point.
> 
> Factually Negated - By Stating you have JOHN RAMBO of Combat Aviation!!
> 
> 1 SQN=3/4SQN FOE when F16 blk52 faces Mig 21 Typ 15/MIRAGE 3/ Mig 23BM/SAAB 37 VIGGEN & F-7


Not really, considering the history of the F-16 and it's use in actual combat. So far, the F-16 has outperformed ever opponent it's faced in the air.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Umair Nawaz

fatman17 said:


> how so please.


Look around, For momentary gains we even r going to sacrifice our long term gains. Not just by F16 case but from selling arms to Syrian Rebels too for just a few millions and our all that hardwork of past 10 years to save our Nation from extremism is in danger.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Donatello

Oscar said:


> Block 15 is not going to take in GE engines as its bay is only fitted for PW-F-100. The engine remains the same.
> The EW pods are the ITT ALQ-211 which are better than the ALQ-131
> Please read
> Exelis - AIDEWS
> 
> Radar is to be changed to APG-68 V(9).. again read before going on a jingositic posting tirade.
> 
> statement
> 1) jingoistic speculative bullshit
> 2) Not even speculation.. pure bull SHIT.



Replace speculative with 'Usual Indian'

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## BATMAN

orangzaib said:


> PAF's always been known to be a good fighting force, specifically close-in fights and these jets are ADF versions....


 
before some one blame you of being jingoistic, i like to point to the un-succesful infiltration of IAF during Zardari era, where their mirrage-2000 was locked by Pakisatni interceptor.
That also brought an end of IAF's public plan of bombing 5000 targets, in Pakistan.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## MastanKhan

Umair Nawaz said:


> This deal and the support for it by our senior team in this forum shows how much short sighted we as a Nation are.


Hi,

There are immediate goals and then there are long term goals. The immediate goals are to have something with the capability of a bvr to counter the strength of the su 30 In a reasonable number on the go. The f16 does that without missing the beat.

The delay in the procurement of the Rafale has given pak some breathing room.

The goals are not set in stone. They change and they need to change in accordance to the change taking place otherwise in the surroundings.

The goals also change with the induction of a new air chief. The previous might be more prejudiced towards the u s---the current chief may have different thoughts.

Larger numbers of f16,s will take care of the short to mid term goals as well---at least for 10 years.

Reader must understand that you have to survive thru your short term and mid term crisis at first before any other goals to be achieved.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Umair Nawaz

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> There are immediate goals and then there are long term goals. The immediate goals are to have something with the capability of a bvr to counter the strength of the su 30 In a reasonable number on the go. The f16 does that without missing the beat.
> 
> The delay in the procurement of the Rafale has given pak some breathing room.
> 
> The goals are not set in stone. They change and they need to change in accordance to the change taking place otherwise in the surroundings.
> 
> The goals also change with the induction of a new air chief. The previous might be more prejudiced towards the u s---the current chief may have different thoughts.
> 
> Larger numbers of f16,s will take care of the short to mid term goals as well---at least for 10 years.
> 
> Reader must understand that you have to survive thru your short term and mid term crisis at first before any other goals to be achieved.


just for 10 years lets see what 10 years really matter. If we were going for J10 who is seeing a constant upgrades it may have served us for a good span of 30 years then this 1979's aircraft. Who is not in production nor is in further updates anymore. Even the tiny israelis r replacing them and we r still siting on some momentary advantages which may last for only 10 years or so.

Even Indians will have in 10 years their 5th gen fighters and we still be again back to square one. thanks to our short shortsightedness and colonial inferiority complex.


----------



## Zarvan

BATMAN said:


> before some one blame you of being jingoistic, i like to point to the un-succesful infiltration of IAF during Zardari era, where their mirrage-2000 was locked by Pakisatni interceptor.
> That also brought an end of IAF's public plan of bombing 5000 targets, in Pakistan.


When that happened and and what do you mean by locked by Pakistani interceptor


----------



## Sinnerman108

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> There are immediate goals and then there are long term goals. The immediate goals are to have something with the capability of a bvr to counter the strength of the su 30 In a reasonable number on the go. The f16 does that without missing the beat.
> 
> The delay in the procurement of the Rafale has given pak some breathing room.
> 
> The goals are not set in stone. They change and they need to change in accordance to the change taking place otherwise in the surroundings.
> 
> The goals also change with the induction of a new air chief. The previous might be more prejudiced towards the u s---the current chief may have different thoughts.
> 
> Larger numbers of f16,s will take care of the short to mid term goals as well---at least for 10 years.
> 
> Reader must understand that you have to survive thru your short term and mid term crisis at first before any other goals to be achieved.



I wish you are wrong on the air chief part.

How can millions of dollars in investment and defense of country be predicated on a "person" !!??


----------



## MastanKhan

Umair Nawaz said:


> just for 10 years lets see what 10 years really matter. If we were going for J10 who is seeing a constant upgrades it may have served us for a good span of 30 years then this 1979's aircraft. Who is not in production nor is in further updates anymore. Even the tiny israelis r replacing them and we r still siting on some momentary advantages which may last for only 10 years or so.
> 
> Even Indians will have in 10 years their 5th gen fighters and we still be again back to square one. thanks to our short shortsightedness and colonial inferiority complex.



Mr Nawaz,

You simply don,t get it. J10 is not available to us. It does not have an engine that can fly it for Pakistan. It does not have weapons systems & weapons package better than the f16 blk 52. & mlu,s. Even after 5 years from now the j10 would be inferior to our blk 52's.

The engine on the j is for Chinese usage and not for paf. Once the engine becomes available it will take another 5 to 10 years for it to mature. There are a myriads of issues with the j10' at this time. It is extremely suitable for the Chinese Air Force because they got nothing else other than a few j11. 

Pak f16 blk 52's are more advanced than anything that the Chinese have so far and for years to come.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Gryphon

*Pakistan looking to buy Jordanian F-16s

Farhan Bokhari, Islamabad* - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
24 February 2014

The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is "close to concluding a deal" for the purchase of up to 13 Lockheed Martin F-16 fighter aircraft currently flown by the Royal Jordanian Air Force, a senior Pakistani government official has told _IHS Jane's_ .






*Pakistan is looking to buy up to 13 Lockheed Martin F-16 fighter aircraft currently flown by the Royal Jordanian Air Force. (TAI).*

The official said the PAF has also made inquiries with at least two other countries to buy F-16s although he declined to name them.

PAF officials have previously told _IHS Jane's_ they were keen to increase the size of Pakistan's F-16 fleet, which currently comprises 18 F-16C/D Block 50/52 versions and between 45 and 50 F-16A/B models purchased in the 1980s.

"The discussions with Jordan are at an advanced stage. We are looking at 12 F-16As and one F-16B Block 15 version," said the Pakistani official. "I hope a deal will come together soon and the aircraft could land in Pakistan in the next few months," he added.

A senior Western diplomat in Islamabad said Jordan may have agreed to sell the aircraft after being persuaded by the United States and possibly Saudi Arabia.

"Recently there has been speculation that the US and Saudi Arabia - for different reasons - are keen to boost Pakistan's potential given the coming events," he said in reference to increasing signs that the PAF could be deployed against Taliban targets in the semi-autonomous tribal areas along the Afghan border ahead of a Pakistan Army ground offensive. The United States has urged Pakistan's civil and military authorities to undertake this mission for years.

At the same time, recently reported that Saudi Arabia is seeking troops from Pakistan to boost its defences, especially along its southern border with Yemen. However, Riyadh's request has prompted speculation that Pakistan is being drawn into supporting Saudi Arabia in the event of the Syrian civil war spilling over into the kingdom.

*COMMENT*
The PAF's long-term fast jet procurements involve the purchase of up to 250 JF-17 Thunder fighter aircraft produced jointly by China's Chengdu Aerospace Corporation and the PAF-run Pakistan Aeronautical Complex at Kamra, north of Islamabad.

However, Pakistani defence officials are keen to continue operating the F-16s as the backbone of the PAF, while also retaining the possibility of purchasing more US fighter aircraft if the country can afford them.

(374 words)

Pakistan looking to buy Jordanian F-16s - IHS Jane's 360

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Umair Nawaz

MastanKhan said:


> Mr Nawaz,
> 
> You simply don,t get it. J10 is not available to us. It does not have an engine that can fly it for Pakistan. It does not have weapons systems & weapons package better than the f16 blk 52. & mlu,s. Even after 5 years from now the j10 would be inferior to our blk 52's.
> 
> The engine on the j is for Chinese usage and not for paf. Once the engine becomes available it will take another 5 to 10 years for it to mature. There are a myriads of issues with the j10' at this time. It is extremely suitable for the Chinese Air Force because they got nothing else other than a few j11.
> 
> Pak f16 blk 52's are more advanced than anything that the Chinese have so far and for years to come.


Sir i agree with superiority of bl 52 right now. But the point is for how long? According to u atleast 5-10 years or i say lets consider it 20 years.

But the point is if there is no war in lets say 20 years or 10 from now and by then the indians induct their 5th gen fighters and take advantage of the situation and attack us then what answer we will have?

The obsolete bl52s? yes obsolete dont kid yrself as 10 years from now and with constant evolving modern warfare and threat perception of Pakistan they will be today's f7pgs in paf.

My worry is not Rafael nor is their mirage 2000 updates nor is their su30 update because as i know these r just their version of stop gap measures. Their real claws will be 5th gen fighters abt whom we literally know nothing in the sense that we can take it out in a war time scenario.

If we really were to go for short term goals and medium term goal which i will designate as stop gap solutions then i will surely recomment a Chinese fighter it may not be j10 it could be j11 or whatever in 4.5 gen category. As these fighters will come with the critical TOT ie with knowledge transfer. And if we have the necessary know how we can always independent modify it in PAC which will be more economic and we will have all the freedom in the world to integrate it with any weapon we like( im taking a clue from JFt project).

Now thats something no f16 can do for us.

Let me pose a question Even if we go against America and start building an F16 from stretch as we r operating them since 83 so can we realistically make it? or even make a platform like this? No because we even dont have access to its radar too let alone making a aircraft like this by reverse engineering it or copying it. Its critical systems r sealed off like avionic, radars etc.

And now see what can we do with J10 or J11? We can even copy engineer it (if we want) as we will get TOT . Which will eventually benefit our local industry and existing a/c projects. And if u see it in long term then it can benefit our future projects as well if we r to make a 5th gen fighter in future if economy get back on track. Because frankly i dont really trust the chinese enough as they will go what suits them and if tomorrow they sign a deal with indians not to support us anymore where will we go? they r already on such track and it is raising some eyes in NDU and in think Tank sections related to Defense and International Relations.

Lets put Pakistan first then anything else.


----------



## EyanKhan

didn't we buy them already


----------



## 45'22'

EyanKhan said:


> didn't we buy them already


looks like the deal is still on


----------



## EyanKhan

45'22' said:


> looks like the deal is still on


But in that report it clearly said the deal was struck and PAF bought them


----------



## 45'22'

EyanKhan said:


> But in that report it clearly said the deal was struck and PAF bought them


janes is a more reliable source
i could be wrong also


----------



## MastanKhan

Hi,

You will find out that the Indians would not be inducting the 5th gen for a long long time. The issues with the 5th gen are so extensive that only a rich nation can afford them.

Secondly---we prepare and get get ready for war as if it going to happen tomorrow. The fear of war on the pak indian border is just a major terrorist incidence away. For the war of tomorrow we plan to get equipment 10 years ago and it starts to come in 5 to 8 years ago so that we can train and get ready for the war of tomorrow. Contd


----------



## trident2010

I can't understand why there is so much fuss about F-16 purchases. These are the best birds PAF can get from anywhere. Getting 13 of them in one go makes a world of difference for PAF.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## MastanKhan

trident2010 said:


> I can't understand why there is so much fuss about F-16 purchases. These are the best birds PAF can get from anywhere. Getting 13 of them in one go makes a world of difference for PAF.




Hi,

Thank you. What people seem to not understand is that a sqdrn of these aircraft is equal to fully equipped and fully trained army strike division with all it's attached paraphernalia and support in place.

And getting them in days is just like enforcing the flank with that division in the blink of an eye.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## MilSpec

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> You will find out that the Indians would not be inducting the 5th gen for a long long time. The issues with the 5th gen are so extensive that only a rich nation can afford them.
> 
> Secondly---we prepare and get get ready for war as if it going to happen tomorrow. The fear of war on the pak indian border is just a major terrorist incidence away. For the war of tomorrow we plan to get equipment 10 years ago and it starts to come in 5 to 8 years ago so that we can train and get ready for the war of tomorrow. Contd



What is the Long Long time defined as? and what is this hunch based on.


----------



## PhoneyMember

Keyword here is ADF.
These planes are specially adapted for air defense role and for low flying night missions.
Clue is in the bird cutter IFF


----------



## Gryphon

PhoneyMember said:


> Keyword here is ADF.
> These planes are specially adapted for air defense role and for low flying night missions.
> Clue is in the bird cutter IFF



These 13 F-16 Block 15 ADF's are MLU'ed according to The News International:



> The deal has already been finalised and inked by both the countries. The 13 aircraft are of F-16 A/B Block-15 and the PAF has similar aircraft in its fleet which are flying satisfactorily. The deal about 12 A models and one B model aircraft has been authenticated by the manufacturing company and the US government has also given its nod for the sale/purchase of the planes.
> 
> Well-placed defence sources told The News here the other day that the purchased aircraft were in good condition since they had attained Mid-Life Update (MLU) and they would be providing service for another 20 years with almost 3,000 hours on average available to them for flying.
> 
> They have been modified into Air Defence Fighters (ADF) versions. The Ogden Air Logistics Centre performed structural upgrades to extend the aircraft life from the designed 4,000 to 8,000 hours flying time as part of the programme. They also modified the aircraft engine bay for the upgraded Pratt and Whitney F100-220E engine. The induction of the planes will give a boost in air power to the PAF that is rendering a remarkable service in the war against terror.



I wonder how much capable they are: Block 25, 32 or 42... and do they use P&W F100-220E engine ??

@Oscar @Armstrong @Devil Soul @fatman17 @Aeronaut

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## fatman17

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> These 13 F-16 Block 15 ADF's are MLU'ed according to The News International:
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder how much capable they are: Block 25, 32 or 42... and do they use P&W F100-220E engine ??
> 
> @Oscar @Armstrong @Devil Soul @fatman17 @Aeronaut


 
not sure but minimum blk 40/42


----------



## Zarvan

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> These 13 F-16 Block 15 ADF's are MLU'ed according to The News International:
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder how much capable they are: Block 25, 32 or 42... and do they use P&W F100-220E engine ??
> 
> @Oscar @Armstrong @Devil Soul @fatman17 @Aeronaut


They will be close to BLOCK 42 as @fatman17 said but when they get upgraded

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## PoKeMon

orangzaib said:


> The mighty IAF is what I was referring to. Between a mix of Jaguars, Migs of different kinds, Mirages and then SU-30's....you'll get 1.5 to 2 jets average. Remember, they are playing defense and you'll be the offensive force. It's not a matter of size and how many bombs you can take with you, it's JUST a matter of AMRAAM's and BVR's being fired and dog fights, either one of them is an advantage to PAF in this case due to proximity to the border. Each one of these F-16's on a defensive sortie will have 4-6 AMRAAM's before going to a dog fight. PAF's always been known to be a good fighting force, specifically close-in fights and these jets are ADF versions....
> Your incoming package sure will have interceptors, but the strike package will take a hit. I can't argue here all night without you understanding the defense - offense strategy. But I let you think about it.



So block 40's will have kill ratio of 2 and MKI's will be sitting ducks? Quite funny.

Ground offensive are well supported by air dominant MKI's and bisons. They are well kept away from your ADF fight envelope. To counter the close proximity and get BVR more effective MKI's are based a bit interior. Lesser potent fighters are not gonna exposed to your supposed AMRAAM's before you are fired upon by MKI's or you get rid of them(unlikely).


----------



## majesticpankaj

few days back in some air show ... pakistan was advertising Jf17 against the F-16 like purchase 6 jf-17 in price of f-16... how will it impact the export potential of jf-17... it is kinda bad publicity for jf-17


----------



## rohailmalhi

majesticpankaj said:


> few days back in some air show ... pakistan was advertising Jf17 against the F-16 like purchase 6 jf-17 in price of f-16... how will it impact the export potential of jf-17... it is kinda bad publicity for jf-17


I dont think so ... Are asking the customer who are already operating F-16s or to leave that option and get our JF-17 . 

We bought them coz we have extensive exp on F-16 compare to JF-17. Plus we can develop 150 JF-17 in 1 night so we have to buy something that fits our bill and equally fits our requirements. 

It will effect on the sale if our production line for JF-17 we closed and we opted for F-16(lets BLOCK 40-52 which be comparable to JF-17 ) .


----------



## MilSpec

rohailmalhi said:


> We bought them coz we have extensive exp on F-16 compare to JF-17. Plus we can develop 150 JF-17 in 1 night so we have to buy something that fits our bill and equally fits our requirements.
> .



develop 150 jf17 in one night.... is PAF also acquiring Skynet from Cyberdyne Systems? if yes, we should be looking john connor right away!

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## majesticpankaj

rohailmalhi said:


> I dont think so ... Are asking the customer who are already operating F-16s or to leave that option and get our JF-17 .
> 
> We bought them coz we have extensive exp on F-16 compare to JF-17. Plus we can develop 150 JF-17 in 1 night so we have to buy something that fits our bill and equally fits our requirements.
> 
> It will effect on the sale if our production line for JF-17 we closed and we opted for F-16(lets BLOCK 40-52 which be comparable to JF-17 ) .




if you can't fill your own requirement with jf-17 .. how you suppose to deliver the export orders ? 
in plain english... you are purchasing second hand f-16 block A .. when you could go for the jf-17 and at the same time comparing jf-17 with F-16 advance blocks... it is quite evident that jf-17 is quite inferior to even f-16 A.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## krash

IND_PAK said:


> So block 40's will have kill ratio of 2 and MKI's will be sitting ducks? Quite funny.
> 
> Ground offensive are well supported by air dominant MKI's and bisons. They are well kept away from your ADF fight envelope. To counter the close proximity and get BVR more effective MKI's are based a bit interior. Lesser potent fighters are not gonna exposed to *your supposed AMRAAM's* before you are fired upon by MKI's or you get rid of them(unlikely).



Everything aside, "supposed AMRAAMs"?



sandy_3126 said:


> develop 150 jf17 in one night.... is PAF also acquiring Skynet from Cyberdyne Systems? if yes, we should be looking john connor right away!



Are we going to bicker on typos now?


----------



## PoKeMon

krash said:


> Everything aside, "supposed AMRAAMs"?



Yes, the supposed AMRAAM who are supposed to take down jaguar(the ground attack) fighter even when escorted by MKI and that too miles ahead.



> Are we going to bicker on typos now?



How can that be a typo. At best boasting of level superman. 

And why are you picking up small words in other's post? Whats your point?


----------



## krash

IND_PAK said:


> Yes, the supposed AMRAAM who are supposed to take down jaguar(the ground attack) fighter even when escorted by MKI and that too miles ahead.



Okay....so you don't know how to use the word, I can live by that. Your sentence otherwise meant something completely different i.e. "there are no AMRAAMs in PAF's inventory. Nvm, carry on.



IND_PAK said:


> How can that be a typo. At best boasting of level superman.
> 
> And why are you picking up small words in other's post? Whats your point?



If you had read the whole sentence once, then again, then maybe again if the need be, I'm pretty sure you would have goten it yourself.


----------



## PoKeMon

krash said:


> Okay....so you don't know how to use the word, I can live by that. Your sentence otherwise meant something completely different i.e. "there are no AMRAAMs in PAF's inventory. Nvm, carry on.
> If you had read the whole sentence once, then again, then maybe again if the need be, I'm pretty sure you would have goten it yourself.



So Mr professor, why cant I call such AMRAAM to be supposed one which can take on jaguar flying atleast 15 miles behind MKI and MKI not taking a shot? Such AMRAAM must have range greater than 150 km and such AMRAAM can only be termed as "supposed". They dont exist.

Use of word. 

Now please excuse me, you will get away with your "english classes" but me less important will get the hammer.


----------



## trident2010

So when will PAF take the first delivery?


----------



## MilSpec

krash said:


> Everything aside, "supposed AMRAAMs"?
> 
> 
> 
> Are we going to bicker on typos now?


what was the typo? one night,150 , or Jf17's?


----------



## krash

sandy_3126 said:


> what was the typo? one night,150 , or Jf17's?



"We bought them coz we have extensive exp on F-16 compare to JF-17. Plus we *can't* develop 150 JF-17 in 1 night so we have to buy something that fits our bill and equally fits our requirements." Makes better sense no? Especially when considering what he was answering to?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## MilSpec

krash said:


> "We bought them coz we have extensive exp on F-16 compare to JF-17. Plus we *can't* develop 150 JF-17 in 1 night so we have to buy something that fits our bill and equally fits our requirements." Makes better sense no? Especially when considering what he was answering to?


relax... have some sense of humor!


----------



## PhoneyMember

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> These 13 F-16 Block 15 ADF's are MLU'ed according to
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder how much capable they are: Block 25, 32 or 42... and do they use P&W F100-220E engine ??
> 
> @Oscar @Armstrong @Devil Soul @fatman17 @Aeronaut


Good if these are MLU but SIPRI suggests otherwise.
PAC Kamra can upgrade older engines to f-100-220e specs,so that shouldn't be a problem.


----------



## PhoneyMember

sandy_3126 said:


> develop 150 jf17 in one night.... is PAF also acquiring Skynet from Cyberdyne Systems? if yes, we should be looking john connor right away!


skynet or not. but PAF has networked all ground based radars and AEW&C into one giant network.This work has been going on since 1977.PAF jets can get info from the network for detecting and tracking enemy aircrafts.That pretty much nullifies MKI advantage for better Radar than PAF planes


----------



## MilSpec

PhoneyMember said:


> skynet or not. but PAF has networked all ground based radars and AEW&C into one giant network.This work has been going on since 1977.PAF jets can get info from the network for detecting and tracking enemy aircrafts.That pretty much nullifies MKI advantage for better Radar than PAF planes


ok


----------



## Viper0011.

IND_PAK said:


> So block 40's will have kill ratio of 2 and MKI's will be sitting ducks? Quite funny.
> Ground offensive are well supported by air dominant MKI's and bisons. They are well kept away from your ADF fight envelope. To counter the close proximity and get BVR more effective MKI's are based a bit interior. Lesser potent fighters are not gonna exposed to your supposed AMRAAM's before you are fired upon by MKI's or you get rid of them(unlikely).



Oh no you didn't!!! How 'bout them BISONS = "Bad Integration Shit ONly". Need I say more? Just like them BISONS, PAF's F-7 CAN also fire similar BVR's using their Italian G-M2 radars. Ask a PAF pilot on here . But the fact is, 30-40 KM BVR through Mig 21......is STILL not potent. The Radars aren't as powerful in Mig 21 and similar airframes' as compared to the MKI's or the F-16's or the JF-17. Crappy tires put on a Mercedes CLS don't make it equal to a track Ferrari.....

Also, the proximity from the PAF's FOB's to the Indian border is crazy short than larger strike squadrons placed inside the Indian borders. The issue is, an F-7 taking off Lahore or from the Pakistani side of Kashmir can immediately lock on a fighter that's still 5-10 km inside the Indian border. Add AEW, they can see inside the Indian airspace for 200-300 km's and know when a plane takes off. You guys can do the same of course but they don't have to scramble anything till its in their basic fighter's radar's range. So your AEW becomes kind of useless to some degree, including the mighty radar of the MKI. It would be the other way around if the Pakistanis were the offensive force. You guys would be shooting them like birds...
Due to so much visibility inside your border, in a war situation, theoretically, you may have a SAM coming at you while you'd still be 40 KM's inside the India border as its the WAR. There is no air defense warning sent when coming too close to the border. Remember, your best link (if you want to grow together economically) is also your weakest link militarily. That is the shared border and literally, a few minutes flight from airbase to airbase!
I can write many strong arguments here that anyone with common sense would agree with. But you guys won't as you don't want to accept the reality. The loss of a Mirage 2000 and one MKI far exceeds the money put into used F-16's or other F-16's acquired in the 80's. So losing 40 MKI's (for example, that's a lower enough number), plus a few Mirages 2000 plus a few Jags and Migs......you are losing very critical strength against the Chinese . That's why you wouldn't risk these expensive toys. Why were Mirages sent and not MKI's when you guys tried to attempt that per-emptive strike for media show-off? Because the risk was great, tensions were high and you might have seen a real interception taking place by the Pakistanis if they were crazy in their heads wanting war to take place. Risk or thought of an MKI going down like that, would crush the moral of the IAF that considers the MKI a super-plane sent from the Russian heaven . That's bad press, would show that the MKI pilots aren't that great, etc, etc. Apply that effect across the border towards the Chinese end...

I can guarantee it. The war days are gone. It is all talk. Any war with Pakistan will make India insanely weaker for the Chinese, not to mention the economic loss of Trillions of dollars. I don't think anyone has the stomach for that. You guys should start talking about friendship, food, sports and movies and forget about the war. Do business together and everyone makes money, sends their kids to good schools, nice vacation, houses and relationships. That's what life is for, to enjoy!

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## rohailmalhi

majesticpankaj said:


> if you can't fill your own requirement with jf-17 .. how you suppose to deliver the export orders ?
> in plain english... you are purchasing second hand *f-16 block A *.. when you could go for the jf-17 and at the same time comparing jf-17 with F-16 advance blocks...* it is quite evident that jf-17 is quite inferior to even f-16 A*.



Well you understanding of the JF-17 is quite wrong and I think you have not gone through the thread. I would recommend that you go through the JF-17 official thread so that you have know how of JF-17 and how it stands in relation to F-16 Blocks, before you make any assumptions. 

Again do you have any prove that the purchased F-16 are Block A and not ADF (Block 40/42) . and Even if it is Block A.
The experience we (PAF) have with F-16 over the years , we cannot develop that experience over night in JF-17. But Once we do sure it will be our main focus but what till then . I wish they can somehow increase the strength of F-16 fleet ot 100+ . That will be real punch in PAF's hand . 

btw why is it always live or die situation for indians there can be things in between them.


----------



## majesticpankaj

rohailmalhi said:


> Well you understanding of the JF-17 is quite wrong and I think you have not gone through the thread. I would recommend that you go through the JF-17 official thread so that you have know how of JF-17 and how it stands in relation to F-16 Blocks, before you make any assumptions.
> 
> Again do you have any prove that the purchased F-16 are Block A and not ADF (Block 40/42) . and Even if it is Block A.
> The experience we (PAF) have with F-16 over the years , we cannot develop that experience over night in JF-17. But Once we do sure it will be our main focus but what till then . I wish they can somehow increase the strength of F-16 fleet ot 100+ . That will be real punch in PAF's hand .
> 
> btw why is it always live or die situation for indians there can be things in between them.



I have gone through the Jf-17 threads which is full of fanboy stuffs ....
There is quite apparent that PAF is more comfortable with the *second hand F-16 block A* than the jf-17 which you guys compared with f-16 high end variants.... as production of jf-17 is not an issue as because you are offering it in international market...even China is not having plan to induct jf-17.....
agreed that you have a good exposure with f-16 but again it is not sanctioned proof....
on a side note... what is the development about J10 B....?


----------



## rohailmalhi

majesticpankaj said:


> I have gone through the Jf-17 threads which is full of fanboy stuffs ....
> There is quite apparent that PAF is more comfortable with the *second hand F-16 block A* than the jf-17 which you guys compared with f-16 high end variants.... as production of jf-17 is not an issue as because you are offering it in international market...even China is not having plan to induct jf-17.....
> agreed that you have a good exposure with f-16 but again it is not sanctioned proof....
> on a side note... what is the development about J10 B....?



It might have fan boy stuff but there has alot of information on different systems which are being used in JF-17.

Having a technology is one thing and developing expertise and tactics to use that tech is other things. We can produce JF-17 in good numbers but can we develop our tactics and experience on JF-17 as much we have on F-16 (3 decades) in 1 year or 2 years. We are currently in the process of developing tactics and exp and this process is very long one .

JF-17 doesnt fit their requirements so Chinese AF is not going to induct them. It was PAF brain child and it will remain so.

Regarding Development of J10-B again . I was not in favor of inducting J-10 B . It doesn't offer something exceptional that our JF-17 cannot offer (might have some issues with ASEA currently as space is bit less but lets see what chinese can come up with).

For fan boys its will be moment of joy thinking about induction of a newer platform in to PAF but when it comes to reality it will be a night mare. We are in process of getting use to (developing expertise and tactics) JF-17 which is currently a new brand plane for PAF. 

Should PAF divide its focus .No it shouldn't . 

What is the solution then . Get some more F-16s use them as stop gap measure till you get excellent with JF-17 . After which you have induct another platform (advanced 4.5 GEN or may be 5Gen ) replacing older F-16s.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## lutfishah

I'm not sure if this news is being discussed. I heard a breaking news yesterday on ARY that Pakistan is given the contract to build F-16 parts.


----------



## Gryphon

Jordan purchased a total of 79 F-16s including 33 F-16 Block 15 ADF's from Peace falcon I/II. Of these, 6 (Two F-16A Block 15 ADF from Peace Falcon 1, One F-16B ADF Blk 15 from Peace Falcon 2, One F-16A from peace falcon 3, and 2 F-16s of unknown batch/specification) crashed.

17 of the F-16 ADFs from PF 1/2 were upgraded to Block 40/42 standard by TAI.

That leaves 13 F-16 block 15 ADFs (reported 12 A, 1 B models) without upgrade if the two unknown crashes are assumed to be from batches except Peace falcon I/II

According to Defense Industry Daily,



> The deal leaves the Royal Jordanian Air Force with 43-46 front-line F-16AM/BM MLU Block 20 fighters, and 15-18 F-16A/B Block 15 ADFs, of 79 purchased. *Not only do they make some money with this sale, they also cut down on the number of RJAF F-16 ADFs that will need expensive mid-life upgrades.*



If the deal goes on, Jordan will be left with 60 F-16AM/BMs , enough to fully equip 3 squadrons...

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## rohailmalhi

sandy_3126 said:


> develop 150 jf17 in one night.... is PAF also acquiring Skynet from Cyberdyne Systems? if yes, we should be looking john connor right away!



hahaha . Yeah sure , we have a genie that will make 150 JF-17 in blick of eye. 

it was just a typo ...... *Plus we cannot develop 150 JF-17 in 1 night so we have to buy something that fits our bill and equally fits our requirements.*


----------



## Rahil khan

rohailmalhi said:


> It might have fan boy stuff but there has alot of information on different systems which are being used in JF-17.
> 
> Having a technology is one thing and developing expertise and tactics to use that tech is other things. We can produce JF-17 in good numbers but can we develop our tactics and experience on JF-17 as much we have on F-16 (3 decades) in 1 year or 2 years. We are currently in the process of developing tactics and exp and this process is very long one .
> *
> JF-17 doesnt fit their requirements so Chinese AF is not going to induct them. It was PAF brain child and it will remain so.*
> 
> *Regarding Development of J10-B again . I was not in favor of inducting J-10 B . It doesn't offer something exceptional that our JF-17 cannot offer (might have some issues with ASEA currently as space is bit less but lets see what chinese can come up with).*
> 
> *For fan boys its will be moment of joy thinking about induction of a newer platform in to PAF but when it comes to reality it will be a night mare. We are in process of getting use to (developing expertise and tactics) JF-17 which is currently a new brand plane for PAF.
> 
> Should PAF divide its focus .No it shouldn't .*
> 
> *What is the solution then . Get some more F-16s use them as stop gap measure till you get excellent with JF-17 . After which you have induct another platform (advanced 4.5 GEN or may be 5Gen ) replacing older F-16s*.


Excellent post sir. Specially the bold parts. Hope it might help to shut those mouths who are repeating the same lines again and again for the last couple of years here on PDF.


----------



## Imran Khan

rohailmalhi said:


> Typo ...... Plus we can *not* develop 150 JF-17 in 1 night so we have to buy something that fits our bill and equally fits our requirements.


 but we should have idea what is thing and whats scrap


----------



## rohailmalhi

Imran Khan said:


> but we should have idea what is thing and whats scrap



Yep sure and I think people in PAF are capable enough to judge that . Dont you think ?


----------



## majesticpankaj

rohailmalhi said:


> It might have fan boy stuff but there has alot of information on different systems which are being used in JF-17.
> 
> Having a technology is one thing and developing expertise and tactics to use that tech is other things. We can produce JF-17 in good numbers but can we develop our tactics and experience on JF-17 as much we have on F-16 (3 decades) in 1 year or 2 years. We are currently in the process of developing tactics and exp and this process is very long one .
> 
> JF-17 doesnt fit their requirements so Chinese AF is not going to induct them. It was PAF brain child and it will remain so.
> 
> Regarding Development of J10-B again . I was not in favor of inducting J-10 B . It doesn't offer something exceptional that our JF-17 cannot offer (might have some issues with ASEA currently as space is bit less but lets see what chinese can come up with).
> 
> For fan boys its will be moment of joy thinking about induction of a newer platform in to PAF but when it comes to reality it will be a night mare. We are in process of getting use to (developing expertise and tactics) JF-17 which is currently a new brand plane for PAF.
> 
> Should PAF divide its focus .No it shouldn't .
> 
> What is the solution then . Get some more F-16s use them as stop gap measure till you get excellent with JF-17 . After which you have induct another platform (advanced 4.5 GEN or may be 5Gen ) replacing older F-16s.



but i don't able to understand why are you purchasing outdated second hand stuffs... i can understand if you are looking for brand new machines to fill in the gaps... but the same money can be invested into further development of jf-17...


----------



## Imran Khan

rohailmalhi said:


> Yep sure and I think people in PAF are capable enough to judge that . Dont you think ?


 from few years i think they are not  they are enough stupids . can park 4 saab-2000 in open line under a shed


----------



## rohailmalhi

Rahil khan said:


> Excellent post sir. Specially the bold parts. Hope *it might help to shut those mouths who are repeating the same lines again and again for the last couple of years here on PDF*.



dont worry its is their job to open their mouth and we are here to teach them not to. 





Imran Khan said:


> from few years i think they are not  they are enough stupids . can park 4 saab-2000 in open line under a shed



Yar maaf kar day un bicharoon ko..... galti ho gaye un say .......... Saab open air main park kar kay..... Aienda nahi karien gay  .

khair I am waiting for the confirmed report that these bird have arrived in Pakistan.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## rohailmalhi

majesticpankaj said:


> but i don't able to understand why are you purchasing outdated second hand stuffs... i can understand if you are looking for brand new machines to fill in the gaps... but the same money can be invested into further development of jf-17...



Its not like we go to showroom and tell the car dealer to give us 18 brand new F-16s. 

Acquiring an assets like fighter plane that too from America is alot more difficult task . It involves alot of diplomacy and politics.

Brand new require alot of Dollaahs (which we might not have in spare) so we get what we can in the budget , upgrade it .

What PAF is thinking is get the planes at throw away price , get it upgraded it from TAI at a reasonable cost . This can save us alot of money which we can use to acquire more birds or invest somewhere else.

If it wasnt for money & politics we might be having EF in our inventory . You never know. 

But this is how things are and we have survive in these conditions. 

I think what PAF did is excellent decision and they did surprised me with this deal , i m also hearing more acquistion of these birds in future (dont want to start any kind of rumour mill so wont get in to details ).


----------



## Dr. Strangelove

Rahil khan said:


> Excellent post sir. Specially the bold parts. Hope it might help to shut those mouths who are repeating the same lines again and again for the last couple of years here on PDF.



the line has been repeated again agian it still has no effect


----------



## SQ8

sandy_3126 said:


> develop 150 jf17 in one night.... is PAF also acquiring Skynet from Cyberdyne Systems? if yes, we should be looking john connor right away!



You are wrong, it is actually a means to slow down time itself.. one night = 1000 days


----------



## Shadow_Hunter

Oscar said:


> You are wrong, it is actually a means to slow down time itself.. one night = 1000 days



The current rate of production of JF17 is at least 5 times slower than even this number


----------



## SQ8

Shadow_Hunter said:


> The current rate of production of JF17 is at least 5 times slower than even this number


Not sure what calculation got you to that number(if it is wrong you will retract that statement). 
Compared to its contemporaries however, its doing just fine.


----------



## Shadow_Hunter

Oscar said:


> Not sure what calculation got you to that number(if it is wrong you will retract that statement).
> Compared to its contemporaries however, its doing just fine.



1000 days=little less than 3 years
JF17 production 50 in 6 years
therefore producing 150 requires 18 years at current production rate, i.e. 6 times the current given number(1000 days)
but since 1000 days is little less than 3 years, i rounded it off to 5 times.


----------



## SQ8

Shadow_Hunter said:


> 1000 days=little less than 3 years
> JF17 production 50 in 6 years
> therefore producing 150 requires 18 years at current production rate, i.e. 6 times the current given number(1000 days)
> but since 1000 days is little less than 3 years, i rounded it off to 5 times.



But the first production JF-17 from the factory rolled out at the end of 2009.. so essentially its been closer to 5 years.. and its a ramping production line... which is how even the F-35 was rolled out. Hence the production rate cannot be taken as a constant.
Please refer to article for future reference on the reasons for slow production rate. 
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/81032936/JFT_Article.pdf


----------



## Shadow_Hunter

Oscar said:


> But the first production JF-17 from the factory rolled out at the end of 2009.. so essentially its been closer to 5 years.. and its a ramping production line... which is how even the F-35 was rolled out. Hence the production rate cannot be taken as a constant.
> Please refer to article for future reference on the reasons for slow production rate.
> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/81032936/JFT_Article.pdf



I know, which is why I mentioned "current rate of production"


----------



## majesticpankaj

rohailmalhi said:


> Its not like we go to showroom and tell the car dealer to give us 18 brand new F-16s.
> 
> Acquiring an assets like fighter plane that too from America is alot more difficult task . It involves alot of diplomacy and politics.
> 
> Brand new require alot of Dollaahs (which we might not have in spare) so we get what we can in the budget , upgrade it .
> 
> What PAF is thinking is get the planes at throw away price , get it upgraded it from TAI at a reasonable cost . This can save us alot of money which we can use to acquire more birds or invest somewhere else.
> 
> If it wasnt for money & politics we might be having EF in our inventory . You never know.
> 
> But this is how things are and we have survive in these conditions.
> 
> I think what PAF did is excellent decision and they did surprised me with this deal , i m also hearing more acquistion of these birds in future (dont want to start any kind of rumour mill so wont get in to details ).



I also believe it is a good decision... but it put a lot of question marks over jf-17 capabilities.... Jordanians have themselves selling it off because they finding it expensive to get it upgraded... still they will remain sanction prone.. no respite from that....


----------



## SQ8

majesticpankaj said:


> I also believe it is a good decision... but it put a lot of question marks over jf-17 capabilities.... Jordanians have themselves selling it off because they finding it expensive to get it upgraded... still they will remain sanction prone.. no respite from that....



No it doesnt. Two different classes of platforms. 

Does the Purchase of the MMRCA effect the status of the Tejas?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## majesticpankaj

Oscar said:


> No it doesnt. Two different classes of platforms.
> 
> Does the Purchase of the MMRCA effect the status of the Tejas?


 It does.... the role of Tejas is totally different to that of Rafale... but in air shows .. you are pitching jf-17 against f-16 by saying buy 6 in price of 2 ... and compare it with f-16 advance variants.... both projecting as multi role combat planes....

But what is the rationale to purchase f-16 which are so old and sanctioned prone... 
from neutral perspective one can conclude that... f-16 older variants are more efficient and capable than jf-17, because having a local solution you are still purchasing second hand outdated machines...


----------



## SQ8

majesticpankaj said:


> It does....* the role of Tejas is totally different to that of Rafale*... but in air shows .. you are pitching jf-17 against f-16 by saying buy 6 in price of 2 ... and compare it with f-16 advance variants.... both projecting as multi role combat planes....
> 
> But what is the rationale to purchase f-16 which are so old and sanctioned prone...
> from neutral perspective one can conclude that... f-16 older variants are more efficient and capable than jf-17, because having a local solution you are still purchasing second hand outdated machines...



How is it not the same for the F-16 and JF-17?
I dont know where the pitch was made against the F-16.. could you clarify?.. I see no reference in any recent interview. Without the reference it seems difficult to accept the rest of the post.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## majesticpankaj

Oscar said:


> How is it not the same for the F-16 and JF-17?
> I dont know where the pitch was made against the F-16.. could you clarify?.. I see no reference in any recent interview. Without the reference it seems difficult to accept the rest of the post.



Pakistan offers cut-price JF17 fighter jet at Dubai Air Show
Pakistan offers cut-price JF17 fighter jet at Dubai Air Show – The Express Tribune


----------



## SQ8

majesticpankaj said:


> Pakistan offers cut-price JF17 fighter jet at Dubai Air Show
> Pakistan offers cut-price JF17 fighter jet at Dubai Air Show – The Express Tribune



And yes it is true.. you can get three JF-17 for the current price of the F-16 Block-52. I still do not see where he says its a replacement in capabilities..Moreover, I'd give much more thought to the statement of a PAC official rather than the Minister of Defence. Do you have such a statement from a PAC official??

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Irfan Baloch

majesticpankaj said:


> but i don't able to understand why are you purchasing outdated second hand stuffs....


 these Jets are already MLU's to Block 40 (AM/BM) standard and are at par with majority of our F-16 fleet. not what you repeatedly seem to be suggesting. 

your post about the JF-17 production rate and its projection is borderline shocking and funny.

you seem in haste to post your "objections" missing the obvious making it seem like we are buying relics.

. F-16 is a class of its own and one of the most successful fighter in the modern times. 
the procurement choices of jets is very pragmatic and doesnt involve pride and taunts of the crowd.



Oscar said:


> And yes it is true.. you can get three JF-17 for the current price of the F-16 Block-52. I still do not see where he says its a replacement in capabilities..Moreover, I'd give much more thought to the statement of a PAC official rather than the Minister of Defence. Do you have such a statement from a PAC official??


exactly

its the value for money which is being pitched here. JF-17 offers same performance and variety of mission at fraction of the cost. not just off the shelf price but the operational cost.


----------



## SQ8

Irfan Baloch said:


> these Jets are already MLU's to Block 40 (AM/BM) standard and are at par with majority of our F-16 fleet. not what you repeatedly seem to be suggesting.
> 
> your post about the JF-17 production rate and its projection is borderline shocking and funny.
> 
> you seem in haste to post your "objections" missing the obvious making it seem like we are buying relics.
> 
> . F-16 is a class of its own and one of the most successful fighter in the modern times.
> the procurement choices of jets is very pragmatic and doesnt involve pride and taunts of the crowd.
> 
> 
> exactly
> 
> its the value for money which is being pitched here. JF-17 offers same performance and variety of mission at fraction of the cost. not just off the shelf price but the operational cost.



The point is. Fault can all be found when one is INTENT on it. These can be conjured up out of thin air on one line statements.. and semantics.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Irfan Baloch

Oscar said:


> The point is. Fault can all be found when one is INTENT on it. These can be conjured up out of thin air on one line statements.. and semantics.


true that, well he got us talking and responding to him .. kept the thread going and I was wondering what is keeping this thread going


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

Oscar said:


> The point is. Fault can all be found when one is INTENT on it. These can be conjured up out of thin air on one line statements.. and semantics.



Are these equipped with APG-68(V)9 or APG-68V(5)?


----------



## majesticpankaj

Oscar said:


> And yes it is true.. you can get three JF-17 for the current price of the F-16 Block-52. I still do not see where he says its a replacement in capabilities..Moreover, I'd give much more thought to the statement of a PAC official rather than the Minister of Defence. Do you have such a statement from a PAC official??



why didn't he says that against f-22...obviously he was projecting it is a competitor to f-16 and advertisement for the buyers who are looking to purchase f-16... for god's sake He is a defence minister of pakistan..please give him some weightage...



Irfan Baloch said:


> *these Jets are already MLU's to Block 40 (AM/BM) standard and are at par with majority of our F-16 fleet. not what you repeatedly seem to be suggesting.
> 
> your post about the JF-17 production rate and its projection is borderline shocking and funny.
> 
> you seem in haste to post your "objections" missing the obvious making it seem like we are buying relics.
> 
> . F-16 is a class of its own and one of the most successful fighter in the modern times.
> the procurement choices of jets is very pragmatic and doesnt involve pride and taunts of the crowd.*
> 
> 
> exactly
> 
> its the value for money which is being pitched here. JF-17 offers same performance and variety of mission at fraction of the cost. not just off the shelf price but the operational cost.



I never said that it is a bad deal... it is a very good deal for you.... 
But my question is regarding jf-17....
just read the two parts of your assessment which is contradictory in nature...
one time you are saying that F-16 is one of the best...agreed
and in another line you are saying jf-17 provides the same performance at fraction of a cost...
so why are purchasing second hand f-16 when you can easily go for jf-17 at a fraction of price.. which is a also sanctioned proof ....


----------



## alimobin memon

SU 30 and Rafale are good jets but with HMD f16 is also fierce even against these rafale and SU30. Rafale might be difficult but with SU30 MKI u cant compete with EW and jamming power of F16 MLU's and blk 52+ . with these additional f16's Pak will have good tech fighters like f16 itself and jf17 making a force of 120+ BVR fighters note that remaining mlu updates are no far than 1 or 1.25 years. with 120+ BVR fighters PAF can save its country from any air threat. Note that According to many people Thrust vectoring of any jet does not provide any edge in dog fight. it can dodge missiles but in dog fight with tvc over manuevring also decreases the speed of the jet from some seconds giving enemy good time to lock and fire another missile.



majesticpankaj said:


> why didn't he says that against f-22...obviously he was projecting it is a competitor to f-16 and advertisement for the buyers who are looking to purchase f-16... for god's sake He is a defence minister of pakistan..please give him some weightage...
> 
> 
> 
> I never said that it is a bad deal... it is a very good deal for you....
> But my question is regarding jf-17....
> just read the two parts of your assessment which is contradictory in nature...
> one time you are saying that F-16 is one of the best...agreed
> and *in another line you are saying jf-17 provides the same performance at fraction of a cost...
> so why are purchasing second hand f-16 when you can easily go for jf-17 at a fraction of price.. which is a also sanctioned proof *....



Why are you buying rafale when SU30MKI is pride of the nation ? Its a silly question u ask. in one month u can get good conditioned f16 of size 13 while'st jf17 production of a year is around a squadron that is around 18. These 13 are completely a huge sudden increase in force thats why. it has nothing to do with jf17.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## SQ8

majesticpankaj said:


> why didn't he says that against f-22...obviously he was projecting it is a competitor to f-16 and advertisement for the buyers who are looking to purchase f-16... for god's sake He is a defence minister of pakistan..please give him some weightage...
> 
> 
> 
> I never said that it is a bad deal... it is a very good deal for you....
> But my question is regarding jf-17....
> just read the two parts of your assessment which is contradictory in nature...
> one time you are saying that F-16 is one of the best...agreed
> and in another line you are saying jf-17 provides the same performance at fraction of a cost...
> so why are purchasing second hand f-16 when you can easily go for jf-17 at a fraction of price.. which is a also sanctioned proof ....



Because the F-16 is what he knows.. and NO obviously he is NOT putting it as a capability competitor to the F-16. A cost competitor perhaps.. but nothing more. I dont give him weightage.. just as I dont give weightage to pointless arguments on one line statements.

and I am going to state this out only once because now you are crossing annoyance levels on a thread where this has already been answered before. The F-16 is a different class of fighter than the JF-17..just as the Rafale is a different fighter than the Tejas.. the F-16 has been operated by the PAF for over 30 years.. therefore the costs of introducing more into the system is minimal. Which is why they are preferred over any J-10 purchase. 
The JF-17 has a certain set of capabilities set out for its particular role in the PAF.. which DOES NOT SUPPLANT that of the F-16. Hence your whole argument is based on blowing up semantics to make a hollow point.

If you cannot agree to it.. Dont bother replying in this thread. If you agree to it.. Do not reply either. I have no further answers for you nor do I want this thread filled with thirty arguments of you satisfying yourself over a five word statement. 

Thank you.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## MilSpec

Oscar said:


> You are wrong, it is actually a means to slow down time itself.. one night = 1000 days


ek number!!!


----------



## Xracer

Can kindly Somebody tell me when these 13 f16 from Jordan are coming to PAKISTAN.Desperately Waiting for that


----------



## TOPGUN

Xracer said:


> Can kindly Somebody tell me when these 13 f16 from Jordan are coming to PAKISTAN.Desperately Waiting for that



In this month of march or april you shall see our birds come home

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Xracer

TOPGUN said:


> In this month of march or april you shall see our birds come home


Thanks Bro


----------



## TOPGUN

Xracer said:


> Thanks Bro



Np my bro

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## rockstar08

what's status of our 33 f-16 which are in turkey for upgrade ? and will these 13 are going there to ??


----------



## Xracer

rockstar08 said:


> what's status of our 33 f-16 which are in turkey for upgrade ? and will these 13 are going there to ??


Well not confirm Though but i think there are not going turkey for upgrade anytime soon Cause they are Already Mlu to block 40 Read somewhere in this Thread.
@TOPGUN Kindly tell us that toooo


----------



## khanasifm

Sep 2014

PAKISTAN AIR FORCE - Official website


----------



## TOPGUN

Xracer said:


> Well not confirm Though but i think there are not going turkey for upgrade anytime soon Cause they are Already Mlu to block 40 Read somewhere in this Thread.
> @TOPGUN Kindly tell us that toooo




From what I understand these 13 from Jordan have already went through MLU and structure upgrades to increase their life you can read upon on it in the beginning of the thread this is a very good deal we are getting .

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## VCheng

TOPGUN said:


> From what I understand these 13 from Jordan have already went through MLU and structure upgrades to increase their life you can read upon on it in the beginning of the thread this is a very good deal we are getting .




So this is definitely NOT another case of "one man's trash is another man's treasure"?


----------



## ejaz007

VCheng said:


> So this is definitely NOT another case of "one man's trash is another man's treasure"?




Jordanian Air Force does not have a better fighter than F-16 in their inventory so they can not sell these fighters considering them as trash.

Lets paint it in another scenario. USA promised us those 14 F-16 that were withheld due to Pressler amendment. USN refused to give them back. USA went to another friend to oblige us.

Yes we already got 14 F-16's from USA but those were EDA and not the ones PAF had paid for.

Just my conspiracy theory.


----------



## Xracer

VCheng said:


> So this is definitely NOT another case of "one man's trash is another man's treasure"?


Welll i Think No and as 
TOPGUN Said:
From what I understand these 13 from Jordan have already went through MLU and structure upgrades to increase their life you can read upon on it in the beginning of the thread this is a very good deal we are getting .


----------



## MastanKhan

VCheng said:


> So this is definitely NOT another case of "one man's trash is another man's treasure"?




No,

It is not as degrading as that. It is just like buying a Certified Pre-owned car.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## rockstar08

TOPGUN said:


> From what I understand these 13 from Jordan have already went through MLU and structure upgrades to increase their life you can read upon on it in the beginning of the thread this is a very good deal we are getting .



yeah I read that too , they are already been MLU upgraded , but my question regarding our 33 f-16s who were in turkey for upgrades to 50/52 If I am not wrong ,, I read that here as well , not in same thread but in some other


----------



## ziaulislam

enough about these 13.
is there any plan to get more from any other country? rumours?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## aziqbal

It has been confirmed in the UK defence journal today issue 1 volume 1 page 9

See my post on Sinodefence JF-17 thread for some reason I can't copy and paste from my photo bucket URL on here

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Manticore

aziqbal said:


> It has been confirmed in the UK defence journal today issue 1 volume 1 page 9
> 
> See my post on Sinodefence JF-17 thread for some reason I can't copy and paste from my photo bucket URL on here

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## TOPGUN

VCheng said:


> So this is definitely NOT another case of "one man's trash is another man's treasure"?



That is correct bro , these aren't trash from anywhere but could serve as good as gold in the right hands that be PAF


----------



## AsianLion

As in everyone's belief, these ex-RJAF 13 F16 (OCU) aka F16 ADF at cheaper cost is a Great news for PAF. But right now they are not MLU as per ur suggestion, they have been done with structural engine upgrades etc to extend life to 8000 hrs. Full MLU upgrade is due.

Since Israel's reservations, Jordan received the downgraded version of these F16s.

The ex-RJAF which PAF is getting cannot fire AIM-9X Sidewinder Missile, or other more advanced missiles which a blk 40 or 52 standard can do. These F16s have previous version sniper pods, old camera system, and limited AMRAAM capability like the AIM-120C. The avionics and software system on the peace falcon II ex-RJAF is not updated. The EW (Electronic Warfare) system is not upgraded.

Only when an upgrade and order of 13 new MLU kits is done, they will be called MLU jets.

Will the PAF be putting these through the same upgrade that is going on in Turkey to Block 50/52 standard?


----------



## Tehmasib

these birds...seen AIM9????

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Audi star

will the upgrade on these F16s will be done by Turkey or USA?


----------



## SQ8

AsianUnion said:


> Will the PAF be putting these through the same upgrade that is going on in Turkey to Block 50/52 standard?



Turkey, Additional MLU kits have been ordered.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Rahil khan

I am really hoping for couple of more surprises like that. Wanna see 100 of these birds in our arsenal in the upcoming years.


----------



## araz

nomi007 said:


> View attachment 19773


Yar Nomi
Please stop posting just pictures on the forum.I think photographs have a place in the gallery but just posting photos without even a note to show what you are hinting at is a waste of time.
Araz

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## BATMAN

Zarvan said:


> They will be close to BLOCK 42 as @fatman17 said but when they get upgraded



At best they are already MLU, next i can think of ELU (end life upgrade)


----------



## fatman17

*2nd squadron (RJAF)*
Royal Jordanian Air Force units overview




2 sqn (RJAF)
*
Status:*
Active
*Version:* F-16A/B block 15 ADF
*Role:* Air Defense
*Tailband:* N/A
*Motto: * N/A
*Badge: * A falcon's head.


 
Sideways profile for 2 sqn in 2007.

*F-16 History*

The first F-16 to arrive in Jordan was destined for the squadron and landed at Muwaffaq Al-Salti AB in December of 1997. Under the Peace Falcon I program, Jordan would receive 16 F-16s – being 12 A-models and 4 B-models – in the ADF version. These F-16s had been stored at AMARC since 1994-1995 and were sent to the Ogden logistical facility to get them to flying condition again.

Since the Jordanian Air Force lacked an aircraft with a dedicated air defence profile and with the possibility to engage beyond visual range, these F-16s were solely used in this role. These aircraft boosted the air defence potential of the Jordanian Air Force dramatically. Although a modern BVR weapon as the AIM-120 wasn’t included in the deal. These were only added to the fleet in 2004. In between, the Jordan’s had to rely on the less sophisticated AIM-7 missile to conduct their BVR missions.

The Jordanian Air Force has conducted a major re-equipment program over the past years. More F-16s were added to the fleet with these being modernised to the MLU standards. Although envisioned to be upgraded as well, the F-16s of 2 squadron remain unmodified. Therefore they retain their specific air defence duties without being truly multirole capable. Time will tell whether these aircraft will receive the MLU package as the rest of the fleet.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Indus Falcon

fatman17 said:


> These F-16s had been stored at AMARC since 1994-1995 and were sent to the Ogden logistical facility to get them to flying condition again.



So why were they stored at AMRAC for 2 ~ 3 years ? Were they part of Peace Gate 3/4 ?


----------



## AZADPAKISTAN2009

The Addition of Squadron a modest yet effective addition to Pakistani Airforce


----------



## Gryphon

*AirForces Monthly* - April 2014
Issue #313

Excerpt from Page 20.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## AZADPAKISTAN2009

I was under impression we ordered 15-20 extra MLU kits for just this kind of ocassion ?


----------



## Nishan_101

fatman17 said:


> *2nd squadron (RJAF)*
> Royal Jordanian Air Force units overview
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2 sqn (RJAF)
> *Status:*
> Active
> *Version:* F-16A/B block 15 ADF
> *Role:* Air Defense
> *Tailband:* N/A
> *Motto: * N/A
> *Badge: * A falcon's head.
> 
> 
> 
> Sideways profile for 2 sqn in 2007.
> 
> *F-16 History*
> 
> The first F-16 to arrive in Jordan was destined for the squadron and landed at Muwaffaq Al-Salti AB in December of 1997. Under the Peace Falcon I program, Jordan would receive 16 F-16s – being 12 A-models and 4 B-models – in the ADF version. These F-16s had been stored at AMARC since 1994-1995 and were sent to the Ogden logistical facility to get them to flying condition again.
> 
> Since the Jordanian Air Force lacked an aircraft with a dedicated air defence profile and with the possibility to engage beyond visual range, these F-16s were solely used in this role. These aircraft boosted the air defence potential of the Jordanian Air Force dramatically. Although a modern BVR weapon as the AIM-120 wasn’t included in the deal. These were only added to the fleet in 2004. In between, the Jordan’s had to rely on the less sophisticated AIM-7 missile to conduct their BVR missions.
> 
> The Jordanian Air Force has conducted a major re-equipment program over the past years. More F-16s were added to the fleet with these being modernised to the MLU standards. Although envisioned to be upgraded as well, the F-16s of 2 squadron remain unmodified. Therefore they retain their specific air defence duties without being truly multirole capable. Time will tell whether these aircraft will receive the MLU package as the rest of the fleet.



PAF should be looking in to buy the remaining 46+16 F-16s from Jordan and helping them to produce JF-17 Block-II locally and also join in the Block-III program. Also in K-8 Block-II with China too.

I would like to know if Jordan has 16 F-16s why PAF bought only 13 from them???


----------



## Gryphon

*Combat Aircraft Monthly* - May 2014
Vol 15, No. 5

Excerpt from Page 20.


----------



## AZADPAKISTAN2009

This deal makes up for slow year for Pakistan Air force

14 JF17 Thunder 
14 F16 Jordaian Ex
36 J10B China (Arriving soon)

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## A.Rafay

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> This deal makes up for slow year for Pakistan Air force
> 
> 14 JF17 Thunder
> 14 F16 Jordaian Ex
> 36 J10B China (Arriving soon)


J10b is canceled I think... its been too much time... not coming. 
I think PAF is waiting for Chinese engine to mature.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Well its the delivery year all was it a political move ? Sadly they are cancelling Musharraf's prominent purchases for selfishness


----------



## Chak Bamu

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Well its the delivery year all was it a political move ? Sadly they are cancelling Musharraf's prominent purchases for selfishness



Nah... do not be too sad. I think that J-10 purchase news trolled Indians well enough. Besides PAF is too busy with JF-17 induction and upgraded F-16s. Induction of J-10 would complicate things for our airforce. Read Air Commodore (R) Kaiser Tufail's interview, you would find answers.


----------



## Nishan_101

Why not PAF offers them JF-17s Block-II assemble about 70 of them and later on 110 JF-17 Block-III to replace all of their F-16s and F-5 in the fleet along with 30+ K-8s..


----------



## AZADPAKISTAN2009

13 F16 Deal is still not too shabby , if we add 18 JF17 Thunders to the mix

And who knows come December Santa would bring surprise gift

With love and divorce never say never, ever


----------



## Nishan_101

How many Muslim countries operate F-16s Block-15...??


----------



## elitepilot09

*+13 Jordanian.* Pakistani media report that the government has inked a deal with Jordan for 12 used F-16As and 1 F-16B:

“With this, the strength of PAF F-16s will reach 76…. The deal… has been authenticated by the manufacturing company and the US government has also given its nod for the sale/purchase of the planes. Well-placed defence sources told The News here the other day that the purchased aircraft were in good condition…. have been modified into Air Defence Fighters (ADF) versions. The Ogden Air Logistics Centre performed structural upgrades to extend the aircraft life from the designed 4,000 to 8,000 hours flying time as part of the programme. They also modified the aircraft engine bay for the upgraded Pratt and Whitney F100-220E engine”

The RJAF does fly F-16 MLUs bought second-hand from Belgium and the Netherlands, but this set being sold is from the 33-plane Peace Falcon I/II purchases of F-16 ADFs in 1997 and 2003. The F-16 ADF variant is actually the F-16 Block 15OCU, *which added the more reliable F100-PW-220 turbofan, structural strengthening, an enlarged HUD, and provisions for the radar-guided AIM-120 AMRAAM missile.* F-16 ADFs retain the AN/APG-66 radar, which has been supplanted by APG-68 models in subsequent variants and in Pakistan’s upgraded fighters. ADFs have some precision ground attack capability using the AGM-65 Maverick missile, but would be well behind Pakistan’s 18 new Block 52s, or the PAF’s roughly 40 existing Block 15 fighters that were upgraded to a similar standard under the programs above.

Barring upgrades, the best use for F-16 ADFs is as interceptor and air superiority fighters. *Recall, however, that the DSCA request for MLU & Falcon STAR kits had a maximum of 60 aircraft, and that these kits wouldn’t be needed for the new F-16C/D Block 52s. Pakistan could order 13 more upgrade kits for these aircraft, and still be within its allotted FMS total.*

Sources: Pakistan’s The News International, “PAF acquires F-16s from Jordan”.


----------



## elitepilot09

Hehehe

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## KingMamba

What is the status of these birds guys? Did they arrive from Jordan yet? Also did Pakistan ever receive the F16s the US owed it? @Aeronaut @DESERT FIGHTER @Armstrong


----------



## Black Eagle 90

elitepilot09 said:


> *+13 Jordanian.* Pakistani media report that the government has inked a deal with Jordan for 12 used F-16As and 1 F-16B:
> 
> “With this, the strength of PAF F-16s will reach 76…. The deal… has been authenticated by the manufacturing company and the US government has also given its nod for the sale/purchase of the planes. Well-placed defence sources told The News here the other day that the purchased aircraft were in good condition…. have been modified into Air Defence Fighters (ADF) versions. The Ogden Air Logistics Centre performed structural upgrades to extend the aircraft life from the designed 4,000 to 8,000 hours flying time as part of the programme. They also modified the aircraft engine bay for the upgraded Pratt and Whitney F100-220E engine”
> 
> The RJAF does fly F-16 MLUs bought second-hand from Belgium and the Netherlands, but this set being sold is from the 33-plane Peace Falcon I/II purchases of F-16 ADFs in 1997 and 2003. The F-16 ADF variant is actually the F-16 Block 15OCU, *which added the more reliable F100-PW-220 turbofan, structural strengthening, an enlarged HUD, and provisions for the radar-guided AIM-120 AMRAAM missile.* F-16 ADFs retain the AN/APG-66 radar, which has been supplanted by APG-68 models in subsequent variants and in Pakistan’s upgraded fighters. ADFs have some precision ground attack capability using the AGM-65 Maverick missile, but would be well behind Pakistan’s 18 new Block 52s, or the PAF’s roughly 40 existing Block 15 fighters that were upgraded to a similar standard under the programs above.
> 
> Barring upgrades, the best use for F-16 ADFs is as interceptor and air superiority fighters. *Recall, however, that the DSCA request for MLU & Falcon STAR kits had a maximum of 60 aircraft, and that these kits wouldn’t be needed for the new F-16C/D Block 52s. Pakistan could order 13 more upgrade kits for these aircraft, and still be within its allotted FMS total.*
> 
> Sources: Pakistan’s The News International, “PAF acquires F-16s from Jordan”.



I think PAF has a great chance of offering them K-8 and JF-17 Block-II production and gaining a good deal of money from them. As RJAF can sell their F-5s and remaining F-16s to Turkey.


----------



## VCheng

There is no official US approval announced yet for this deal.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## fatman17



Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Black Eagle 90

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 25995


RJAF had 16 of them then how PAF bought only 13 of them??? will 3 of them arriving soon??


----------



## VCheng

Black Eagle 90 said:


> RJAF had 16 of them then how PAF bought only 13 of them??? will 3 of them arriving soon??



The deal cannot be finalized without US approval, which is still pending.


----------



## Black Eagle 90

VCheng said:


> The deal cannot be finalized without US approval, which is still pending.


So a total of 16 of them coming to PAF??


----------



## rockstar08

VCheng said:


> The deal cannot be finalized without US approval, which is still pending.



why you think they will public a news without any approval from Uncle Sam ?


----------



## VCheng

rockstar08 said:


> why you think they will public a news without any approval from Uncle Sam ?



That I do not know. I do know that such approvals must follow a prescribed path for approval in DC, which includes open announcements. No one has posted any such information that such approvals have indeed been given.



Black Eagle 90 said:


> So a total of 16 of them coming to PAF??



The deal is still pending approval.


----------



## Irfan Baloch

VCheng said:


> The deal cannot be finalized without US approval, which is still pending.


special committee on foreign sales?
I wont be surprised if this approval never comes, anti Pakistan sentiments are high among the American legislators


----------



## VCheng

Irfan Baloch said:


> special committee on foreign sales?
> I wont be surprised if this approval never comes, anti Pakistan sentiments are high among the American legislators



American approvals are made on the basis of serving national interests, never on sentiments.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Irfan Baloch

VCheng said:


> American approvals are made on the basis of serving national interests, *never *on sentiments.


I agree with the first part of the sentence but I think the choice of the word "never" is too generous. sentiments do play sometimes , I am sure the American legislators have the same human traits like the rest of the people of the world.


----------



## VCheng

Irfan Baloch said:


> I agree with the first part of the sentence but I think the choice of the word "never" is too generous. sentiments do play sometimes , I am sure the American legislators have the same human traits like the rest of the people of the world.



Sentiments are shown for the media to display to the people. Decisions in committees are never sentimental, I can assure you.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Irfan Baloch

VCheng said:


> Sentiments are shown for the media to display to the people. Decisions in committees are never sentimental, I can assure you.


If you say so


(Lord Marshall: "Irgun, One of my best"... Riddick: "If you say so")

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## Haitham

Pakistan needs to buy air superiority fighter not to buy old F-16


----------



## HANI

Local media reports arrival of 15 f16 from Jordan ceremony is going on as we speak


----------



## SQ8

Apparently they have.
@VCheng @orangzaib Possibly one of the quietest deals in history in terms of the US DSCA ???

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## aliyusuf

According to ARY News and Jaag News, 5 of the 13 ex-Jordanian F-16s are reaching Pakistan.


----------



## kaykay

Oscar said:


> Apparently they have.
> @VCheng @orangzaib Possibly one of the quietest deals in history in terms of the US DSCA ???


Good for Pakistan. So now total count goes up to 76. I must say quite impressive figure!!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Windjammer

Yup, just got the news that they have arrived at Mushaff / Sargodha base.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Manticore

*PAF inducts first batch of F-16 fighter jets from Jordan*
DAWN.COM





— File photo
SARGODHA: Pakistan received on Sunday its first batch of F-16 fighter jets delivered from Jordan, DawnNews reported.
PAF inducts first batch of F-16 fighter jets from Jordan - Pakistan - DAWN.COM
Sources said that the Pakistan had signed a contract with Jordan for the supply of 13 fighter jets out of which five were delivered at the Mushaf Mir Airbase in Sargodha and inducted in the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) fleet.
اردن سے خریدے گئے ایف سولہ طیاروں کی پہلی کھیپ پاک فضائیہ کے بیڑے میں شامل - URDU.DAWN.COM

Five F-16 planes from Jordan included in PAF fleet | The News Tribe
*Five F-16 planes from Jordan included in PAF fleet*
By Ahmed Jatt | Apr 27th, 2014 | 5:29 pm | ( No Comment )


1 719 






*SARGODHA: Pakistan Air Force (PAF) on Sunday organised a formal ceremony to include six F-16 fighter jets from Jordan into the national forces fleet here at at Mashaf Airbase.*

The fighter jets arrived from Pakistan’s middle eastern friendly country Jordan and were included in PAF fleet today.

Air chief Marshall Tahir Rafiq Butt presided over the ceremony.

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## VCheng

Oscar said:


> Apparently they have.
> @VCheng @orangzaib Possibly one of the quietest deals in history in terms of the US DSCA ???



All for a good reason, I am sure. I think both sides see the value of toning down the rhetoric and get back to work together.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## think@best

At last 6 jets comes to Pakistan


----------



## Windjammer

VCheng said:


> All for a good reason, I am sure. I think both sides see the value of toning down the rhetoric and get back to work together.



Change of line....change of tone......any port in a storm.

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## VCheng

Windjammer said:


> Change of line....change of tone......any port in a storm.



Hey, whatever works in furthering national interest!

That is the correct way.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## SQ8

VCheng said:


> All for a good reason, I am sure. I think both sides see the value of toning down the rhetoric and get back to work together.


True, but skipping procedure altogether?? That is almost Israel like

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## BATMAN

VCheng said:


> All for a good reason, I am sure. I think both sides see the value of toning down the rhetoric and get back to work together.



You could have said this, without wasting every one's time!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Manticore

Maybe the U.S does not consider 13 used aircrafts as a game changer in our region -- I know mr mastaan will not agree and say that this is a massive 20% increase in force


----------



## abbi007

What models are these ones though? Block 52's?


----------



## Bratva

Oscar said:


> Apparently they have.
> @VCheng @orangzaib Possibly one of the quietest deals in history in terms of the US DSCA ???





Oscar said:


> True, but skipping procedure altogether?? That is almost Israel like



Being has M-NNA it's PERKS.




mafiya said:


> @Oscar @VCheng I guess US not notifying to congress is kind of loophole in their laws they are trying to exploit. Hence the transfer of AIM-9x and other goodies through Jordan without congress breathing down US administration neck. Have a look at this
> 
> *Major non-NATO ally
> 
> In 1996 major non-NATO allies received additional military and financial benefits when section 2321k was added to Title 22 (Foreign Relations) of the U.S. Code (also known as section 517 of the Foreign Assistance Act of 1961), which added MNNAs to many of the same exemptions from the Arms Export Control Act that were enjoyed by NATO members
> 
> Nations named as major non-NATO allies are eligible for the following benefits:
> *
> 
> 
> *
> 
> entry into cooperative research and development projects with the Department of Defense (DoD) on a shared-cost basis
> 
> participation in certain counter-terrorism initiatives
> 
> purchase of depleted uranium anti-tank rounds
> 
> priority delivery of military surplus (ranging from rations to ships)
> 
> possession of War Reserve Stocks of DoD-owned equipment that are kept outside of American military bases
> 
> loans of equipment and materials for cooperative research and development projects and evaluations
> 
> permission to use American financing for the purchase or lease of certain defense equipment
> 
> reciprocal training
> 
> expedited export processing of space technology
> *






mafiya said:


> Under Section 36(b) of the *Arms Export Control Act (AECA)*, Congress must be formally notified 30 calendar days before the Administration can take the final steps to conclude a government-to-government foreign military sale of:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Absolutely, M NNA exempted from AECA coupled with possession of War Reserve Stocks of DoD-owned equipment that are kept outside of American military bases is a loophole, that America chose to exercise in recent years... Or else all major deals with Pakistan were notified to congress... Looks like mood is changing at capitol hill
Click to expand...


----------



## Manticore

*Modifications & Armament*
*Mid-life Update*
For a number of years the Royal Jordanian AF recognized the need to give the leased aircraft a mid-life update in the next 2 or 3 years. It was unclear for a long time whether reference was made to the MLU-program, or just to updates in general.

In January of 2004 however a LOA for an $87 million contract was signed between Jordan and Lockheed-Martin for the update of the 17 Peace Falcon II aircraft. This modification consists of enhancements to the cockpit, avionics, sensors and weapons. These upgrades also improve system reliability and supportability. Together with this upgrade this package also includes Falcon UP and Falcon STAR structural upgrades. These structural upgrades will extend the service life to 8,000 flight hours with these aircraft being able to remain in service for another 20 years. The upgrades will be performed by Turkish Aerospace Industries in its Ankara fascilities.

*Armament and Stores*
Main armament of the RJAF F-16s is the AIM-9 Sidewinder, although the RJAF was hoping to acquire the AIM-120 AMRAAM for a long time. On November 24th, 2004 a deal was announced in which Jordan would receive up to 50 AIM-120C missiles and associated equipment in a deal worth $39 million.











F-16 Air Forces - Jordan :: F-16.net



F-16 Units - RJAF 1st squadron :: F-16.net
F-16 Units - RJAF 2nd squadron :: F-16.net
F-16 Units - RJAF 6th squadron :: F-16.net

------
so, which squadron did we get?





not true multirole squadron
2 sqn (RJAF)
*Status:*
Active
*Version:*F-16A/B block 15ADF
Although envisioned to be upgraded as well, the F-16s of 2 squadron remain unmodified. Therefore they retain their specific air defence duties without being truly multirole capable.






> The 13 aircraft are of F-16 A/B Block-15 and the PAF has similar aircraft in its fleet which are flying satisfactorily. The deal about 12 A models and one B model aircraft has been authenticated by the manufacturing company and the US government has also given its nod for the sale/purchase of the planes.
> Well-placed defence sources told The News here the other day that the purchased aircraft were in good condition since they had attained Mid-Life Update (MLU)
> 
> PAF acquires F-16s from Jordan - thenews.com.pk



p.falcon2 were both adf and mlu thus making them better than p.falcon1 which are adf without mlu

the news report mentions both mlu and adf -- fingers crossed



> The 13 aircraft are of F-16 A/B Block-15 and the PAF has similar aircraft in its fleet which are flying satisfactorily. The deal about 12 A models and one B model aircraft has been authenticated by the manufacturing company and the US government has also given its nod for the sale/purchase of the planes.
> Well-placed defence sources told The News here the other day that the purchased aircraft were in good condition since they had attained Mid-Life Update (MLU)
> They have been modified into Air Defence Fighters (ADF) versions. The Ogden Air Logistics Centre performed structural upgrades to extend the aircraft life from the designed 4,000 to 8,000 hours flying time as part of the programme. They also modified the aircraft engine bay for the upgraded Pratt and Whitney F100-220E engine. The induction of the planes will give a boost in air power to the PAF that is rendering a remarkable service in the war against terror.
> PAF acquires F-16s from Jordan - thenews.com.pk







F-16 Versions - F-16 ADF

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Windjammer

Manticore said:


> Maybe the U.S does not consider 13 used aircrafts as a game changer in our region -- I know mr mastaan will not agree and say that this is a massive 20% increase in force



It means standing up a fourth full strength squadron....and plenty of fire-power.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Manticore

-----------------------------------


PAF inducts 5 F-16 fighter aircraft from Jordan | ARYNEWS.tv, Pakistan News-Latest,Breaking News,Live Videos
SARGODHA: Five out of 13, F-16 multi-role fighter aircraft that was bought from Jordan has been inducted in Pakistan Air Force (PAF), ARY News reported.

According to PAF spokesman, a ceremony was held at Mushaf Air base, Sargodha on Sunday. Admiral Air Marshall Tahir Rafique Butt was the Chief Guest of ceremony. The ceremony was attended by Jordan Ambassador to Pakistan and high profile officials of Pakistan Air Force and Army.

Speaking on the occasion, Air Marshall Tahir Rafique Butt said that addition of F-16 aircrafts has boosted the strength of PAF.

These F-16 aircrafts have been purchased from Jordan and they were in the use of the Royal Jordanian Air Force (RJAF). With the addition, the strength of PAF F-16 has reached to 68. 

Earlier, the two countries finalized a deal for the 13 aircrafts of F-16 A/B Block-15 as the PAF has similar aircraft in its fleet which are flying satisfactorily.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## SQ8

Windjammer said:


> It means standing up a fourth full strength squadron....and plenty of fire-power.



What it really means is greater increase in BVR capability coverage over Pakistan Air Defence regions.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Manticore

Oscar said:


> What it really means is greater increase in BVR capability coverage over Pakistan Air Defence regions.


gotta use those 500 aim120s

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## SQ8

Manticore said:


> These F-16 aircrafts have been purchased from Jordan and they were in the use of the Royal Jordanian Air Force (RJAF). With the addition, the strength of PAF F-16 has reached to 68..



What was it I mentioned some three years ago?? 70 -80 F-16s..150 JF-17s.. and 50 F-7PGs.. with nothing apart from that.
But certain people just dont want to listen... whose _nishandigi(more than one speculator) _ I wont do.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Armstrong

Oscar said:


> What was it I mentioned some three years ago?? 70 -80 F-16s..150 JF-17s.. and 50 F-7PGs.. with nothing apart from that.
> But certain people just dont want to listen... whose _nishandigi(more than one speculator) _ I wont do.


 
What can such a mix achieve ?  

What I mean to ask is - Leaving aside our economic compulsions, is this a respectable mix viz a vie the Indian Airforce ?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## SQ8

Armstrong said:


> What can such a mix achieve ?
> 
> What I mean to ask is - Leaving aside our economic compulsions, is this a respectable mix viz a vie the Indian Airforce ?



Yup, when considering future conflict considerations.. it is the least we could do.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Manticore

*PAF inducts first batch of F-16 from Jordan*
April 27, 2014
PAF inducts first batch of F-16 from Jordan | Abb Takk News – Breaking News, News in English and Latest Headlines

*SARGODHA: Pakistan received on Sunday its first batch, five jets out of 13, of F-16 fighter jets delivered from Jordan as*Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique termed jets would increase the PAF rapid fighting skills.

Sources said that the Pakistan had signed a contract with Jordan for the supply of 13 fighter jets out of which five were delivered at the Mushaf Mir Airbase in Sargodha and inducted in the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) fleet.

The inclusion of the 13 jets would take the strength of the PAF F-16s to 76.

Media reports indicated the PAF had agreed to purchase an entire squadron from Jordan, consisting of 12 A models and one B model. According to one news report, the jets “were in good condition since they had *attained Mid-Life Update (MLU) and they would be providing service for another 20 years with almost 3,000 hours *on average available to them for flying.”




mlu


----------



## Armstrong

Oscar said:


> Yup, when considering future conflict considerations.. it is the least we could do.


 
That doesn't fill me with a lot of confidence ! 

Bandaa koi josh-e-khataabat mein hiii kuch aisaa keh deitaa haiii hai which oozes uber-nationalism ! 

But khair that really sounds like a depressing read; we're screwed is what you mean unless a number of factors go our way !

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Windjammer

This has to be one of the classic image of the F-16 in its prime form.

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## Luftwaffe

Can we pin hopes on Turkish F-16s once their F-35s start to arrive although it is a long way to go.



Windjammer said:


> This has to be one of the classic image of the F-16 in its prime form.



I've a poster from "Gun Smoke 87" its too big or i would have scanned it vertical climbing F-16.


----------



## rockstar08

PAF inducts 5 F-16 fighter aircraft from Jordan | ARYNEWS.tv, Pakistan News-Latest,Breaking News,Live Videos

guys they are here 
finally 5 F-16 from Jordan came to Pakistan .....


----------



## Manticore

rockstar08 said:


> PAF inducts 5 F-16 fighter aircraft from Jordan | ARYNEWS.tv, Pakistan News-Latest,Breaking News,Live Videos
> 
> guys they are here
> finally 5 F-16 from Jordan came to Pakistan .....


you missed a few smileys

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## rockstar08

Manticore said:


> you missed a few smileys



hahahhah 
anyone get pics ??


----------



## krash

Any idea which squadron will be getting them? Also what are the numerical strengths of the No.9 and No.11 squadrons? I'm guessing some of their birds would be joining these Jordanian ones in the new squadron to make it 19, 19 and 20 birds each for the three non-block52+ squadrons?

I apologise if this has already been answered.


----------



## Donatello

krash said:


> Any idea which squadron will be getting them? Also what are the numerical strengths of the No.9 and No.11 squadrons? I'm guessing some of their birds would be joining these Jordanian ones in the new squadron to make it 19, 19 and 20 birds each for the three non-block52+ squadrons?
> 
> I apologise if this has already been answered.




Apparently they are in Sargodha. But we have yet to see if these aircraft need MLU process to bring them at par with the PAF fleet.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Shabaz Sharif

@VCheng did congress approve this deal lol

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## AZADPAKISTAN2009

A very modest improvement some F16 , helps with migranes and cold flu as well

I mean a fantastic , way to make up for lost time in 90's

A minor MLU upgrade and these birds would serve Pakistan Airforce for next 15 years


----------



## Liquidmetal

Congratulations everyone. The F!6 in my opinion is one of the best fighters ever made. The design is ageless, and with better avionics and electronic packages, it can compete with most fighters. The shape is a thing of beauty, one of the best looking jets ever, I suggest the PAF keep surprising us like this and induct more F16s sourced from other forces that are looking to move to other jets.



Windjammer said:


> This has to be one of the classic image of the F-16 in its prime form.


Peerless. Just an amazing image. Thanks buddy.


----------



## VelocuR

Now send them to Turkey for MLU upgrading at least 2 years or so.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## SQ8

Armstrong said:


> That doesn't fill me with a lot of confidence !
> 
> Bandaa koi josh-e-khataabat mein hiii kuch aisaa keh deitaa haiii hai which oozes uber-nationalism !
> 
> But khair that really sounds like a depressing read; we're screwed is what you mean unless a number of factors go our way !



We are screwed as long as the conflict goes beyond a week. Till a week our AF can survive and be effective to an extent...after that you might as well practice your Bhatta heritage.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Saifullah Sani

*PAF inducts first batch of F-16 fighter jets from Jordan*

Pakistan received on Sunday its first batch of F-16 fighter jets delivered from Jordan, DawnNews reported.

Sources said that the Pakistan had signed a contract with Jordan for the supply of 13 fighter jets out of which five were delivered at the Mushaf Mir Airbase in Sargodha and inducted in the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) fleet.

*The inclusion of the 13 jets would take the strength of the PAF F-16s to 76.*

Media reports indicated the PAF had agreed to purchase an entire squadron from Jordan, consisting of 12 A models and one B model. *According to one news report, the jets "were in good condition since they had attained Mid-Life Update (MLU) and they would be providing service for another 20 years with almost 3,000 hours on average available to them for flying."

PAF inducts first batch of F-16 fighter jets from Jordan - Pakistan - DAWN.COM*

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Informant




----------



## Chak Bamu

Congrats everyone. Something to smile about in all the gloom and doom spread across the land these days.

Pessimists would find something else to gripe about. This may not be a big enough shut-up call.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Donatello

Oscar said:


> We are screwed as long as the conflict goes beyond a week. Till a week our AF can survive and be effective to an extent...after that you might as well practice your Bhatta heritage.



Any chance for the 14 remaining from USA to be delivered? If RJAF jets have arrived then congress gave the approval??


----------



## Rahil khan

So now finally we can say that the chapter of J-10 has closed....!!!


----------



## Gryphon

Five F-16 fighter jets from Jordan join Pakistan Air Force...


Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt and the Ambassador of Jordan Nawaf Khalifa Saraireh in a group photo at Mushaf Mir 
Airbase...






Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt inspecting an aircraft during handing over ceremony of five F-16 fighter jets at Mushaf Mir Airbase...












Photos by: The Nation

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## Manticore

*Five F-16 inducted into PAF*
Last Updated On *27 April,2014* About 7 minutes ago









*Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafiq Butt says induction of fighter jets will increase efficiency of PAF.*

ARGODHA (Dunya News/Web Desk) - Five F-16 fighter jets out of 13 delivered by Jordan have been inducted into Pakistan Air Force (PAF).

A ceremony to induct the first batch of the fighter jets in Pakistan Air Force held at Mashaf Airbase in Sargodha on Sunday. The aircrafts have been inducted in the 19th fleet of PAF.

Addressing a ceremony, Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafiq Butt said that 13 used F-16 aircraft have been purchased from Jordan at reasonable price. He said the induction of these fighter jets will further increase efficiency of the Air Force.

Tahir Rafiq Butt said that Pakistan Air force (PAF) is fully capable of tackling internal, external challenges.

He said the aircrafts are in good condition and the new induction will not only increase efficiency of Pakistan Air Force but also further improve process of training.

The air chief said that the agreement is an expression of brotherly relations between Pakistan and Jordan air force.

Ambassador of Jordan and senior PAF and Army officers attended the ceremony.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Stormtrooper

Arent 3000 flying hours a bit less? I mean that makes up almost 150 flying hours a year considering the next 20 year plan.


----------



## Imran Khan

mubarak ho kabaar ka maal


----------



## Informant

Such good news. This must be a surprise for the Indians, now they would have to update their battle plans.

@Oscar These planes look beat? Whats the deal?


----------



## My-Analogous

It is ARY news that 5 F16 join PAF today and we bought that from Jordon


----------



## Manticore

local serial number 220
Royal Jordanian Air Force F-16s







USAF F-16A block 15 #80-0544 of the 313th TFS is spotted at the Air Tattoo at Greenham Common in 1983. This airframe was later converted to ADF standards and eventually delivered to Jordan as #220. [Photo by Ed Groenendijk]

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Imran Khan

YE lo we got oldest F-16s in our fleet its even older then me 

mighty 220 serial number we recived is






*27 Nov 1981 [act] 80544 * *F-16A Block 15 
28 Nov 1981 [act] 80544 USAF 313 TFS 'HR' F-16A Block 15 *


*Dec 1986 [act] 80544



USAF 31 TFW 'HS' F-16A Block 15 
Unknown [act] 80544



F-16A Block 15 ADF 
Apr 1989 [act] 80544



USAF 194 FIS F-16A Block 15 ADF 
15 Mar 1992 [act] 80544



USAF 194 FS F-16A Block 15 ADF 
23 Sep 1994 [sto] AAFG0231



USAF AMARC F-16A Block 15 ADF *


*30 Jan 1997 [sto] AAFG0231



USAF OG-ALC F-16A Block 15 ADF *

Hill AFB, Utah for refurbishment
*30 Jan 1998 [act] 220



F-16A Block 15 ADF *

*FMS Program:* Peace Falcon I
*FMS Serial:* M13-1
*May 1998 [act] 220



RJAF 2 sqn F-16A Block 15 ADF *


----------



## Rahil khan

It's a good development but just to question...aren't we heading towards the stage that F-16s shall become our Mirages till the end of the next decade.??


----------



## Imran Khan

this great man 


80-0582 61-303 *Delivered:* 80582



F-16A Block 15A * 24 Feb 1982 * 
*Current:* 224



RJAF 2 sqn F-16A Block 15A ADF 20 Apr 2008

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## My-Analogous

5 of them reach Pakistan

PAF inducts first batch of F-16 fighter jets from Jordan - Pakistan - DAWN.COM


----------



## ziaulislam

Manticore said:


> Maybe the U.S does not consider 13 used aircrafts as a game changer in our region -- I know mr mastaan will not agree and say that this is a massive 20% increase in force



of course it isnt, as india is flexing it musles with upgraded mirages more su 30 , rafale is about to come and last but not the least we will be seeing their fifth gen platform within the next decade, all of these are at par with f-16s

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## My-Analogous

Imran Khan said:


> this great man
> 
> 
> 80-0582 61-303 *Delivered:* 80582
> 
> 
> 
> F-16A Block 15A * 24 Feb 1982 *
> *Current:* 224
> 
> 
> 
> RJAF 2 sqn F-16A Block 15A ADF 20 Apr 2008



Imran Bhai its not about when its made its about how much its consume. Soon its will be upgraded to block 40 standard.


----------



## khanboy007

Imran Khan said:


> YE lo we got oldest F-16s in our fleet its even older then me
> 
> mighty 220 serial number we recived is
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *27 Nov 1981 [act] 80544 * *F-16A Block 15
> 28 Nov 1981 [act] 80544 USAF 313 TFS 'HR' F-16A Block 15 *
> 
> 
> *Dec 1986 [act] 80544
> 
> 
> 
> USAF 31 TFW 'HS' F-16A Block 15
> Unknown [act] 80544
> 
> 
> 
> F-16A Block 15 ADF
> Apr 1989 [act] 80544
> 
> 
> 
> USAF 194 FIS F-16A Block 15 ADF
> 15 Mar 1992 [act] 80544
> 
> 
> 
> USAF 194 FS F-16A Block 15 ADF
> 23 Sep 1994 [sto] AAFG0231
> 
> 
> 
> USAF AMARC F-16A Block 15 ADF *
> 
> 
> *30 Jan 1997 [sto] AAFG0231
> 
> 
> 
> USAF OG-ALC F-16A Block 15 ADF *
> 
> Hill AFB, Utah for refurbishment
> *30 Jan 1998 [act] 220
> 
> 
> 
> F-16A Block 15 ADF *
> 
> *FMS Program:* Peace Falcon I
> *FMS Serial:* M13-1
> *May 1998 [act] 220
> 
> 
> 
> RJAF 2 sqn F-16A Block 15 ADF *



we also so received *225 *

what about that 

look closely


----------



## Manticore

khanboy007 said:


> we also so received *225 *
> 
> what about that
> 
> look closely


Royal Jordanian Air Force F-16s
same lot


their 600 serial series is the latest

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Imran Khan

ghazaliy2k said:


> Imran Bhai its not about when its made its about how much its consume. Soon its will be upgraded to block 40 standard.


 my brother its important qestion when it was made we recived 

*they are 32 years, 2 months, 3 days old *


----------



## Manticore

Imran Khan said:


> my brother its important qestion when it was made we recived
> 
> *they are 32 years, 2 months, 3 days old *


the question is, if this 220 adf serial f16 had later on undergone mlu or not ... as reported in the news articles


----------



## Donatello

Imran Khan said:


> my brother its important qestion when it was made we recived
> 
> *they are 32 years, 2 months, 3 days old *



Get a mental checkup, Imran.

These F-16s have good amount of life in them. Planes as old as 50 years are in services, like C-130s and B52s. Not to mention the Mig 21s/F-7s and Mirage III/V

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## VCheng

Oscar said:


> True, but skipping procedure altogether?? That is almost Israel like



This is not a skipping of procedures. It is just that there are several pathways available to get the job done. I am sure that the records show that these aircraft will enhance anti-terrorism efforts in the region, and therefore Presidential rather than Congressional approval will suffice.


----------



## Imran Khan

Donatello said:


> Get a mental checkup, Imran.
> 
> These F-16s have good amount of life in them. Planes as old as 50 years are in services, like C-130s and B52s. Not to mention the Mig 21s/F-7s and Mirage III/V


let me remember you in first world air forces fighter jets of same age are in muesium these days


----------



## VCheng

shan said:


> @VCheng did congress approve this deal lol



No, Congress did not, but the President did, as help for the anti-terror effort in the region.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Donatello

Imran Khan said:


> let me remember you in first world air forces fighter jets of same age are in muesium these days



So you are telling me that B-52s and C130s have all been retired? Or the P3C orions?

Imran, you are an old member here, please stop this old this old that non-sense.


----------



## Imran Khan

Donatello said:


> So you are telling me that B-52s and C130s have all been retired? Or the P3C orions?
> 
> Imran, you are an old member here, please stop this old this old that non-sense.


 fighter jets  i used word fighter jets


----------



## Wingman

That Guy said:


> Disagree. The JF-17 is a good fighter, but the F-16 still outclasses it in many fields. Developing the JF-17 is a priority for the PAF, but they need stopgaps, which the JF-17 is slow to fill. The F-16s are already pre-made, so the only thing needed is to upgrade them if they're older models.



I agree with you, at least pilots will fly american system, which is by any means is better than other systems

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Donatello

Imran Khan said:


> fighter jets  i used word fighter jets



Combat aircraft. And F-16s will fly as long as they seem fit. Turkey still flies the venerable F-4 Phantom


----------



## Wingman

cb4 said:


> I don't understand why Jordan would want to sell them. They are still flying old F-5s. Why not get rid of those first ?


Valid Question, can some one throw some light ??


----------



## Kompromat

Next target MLU-M-V snow vipers from Norway.


----------



## Manticore

US gives Jordan Patriot missiles and F16 jet fighters - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
*US gives Jordan Patriot missiles and F16 jet fighters*
Updated Thu 20 Jun 2013, 8:44am AEST

The US military is wrapping up a joint exercise in Jordan and leaving behind an unusual gift: Patriot missiles and F16 jet fighters. The idea that these might one day be used to enforce a no-fly zone, just across the border in Southern Syria, has angered Russia. The new hardware has been requested by Jordan's government which is concerned Syria's civil war could turn into a regional conflict.


----------



## LonE_WolF

Aeronaut said:


> Next target MLU-M-V *snow vipers from Norway*.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## krash

Donatello said:


> Combat aircraft. And F-16s will fly as long as they seem fit. *Turkey still flies the venerable F-4 Phantom*



Not to forget the Japanese, the Greeks and the South Koreans. The Germans only retired their's in June of 2013.


----------



## My-Analogous

Imran Khan said:


> fighter jets  i used word fighter jets



These were MLU before and will further upgrade to block 40 + and having life of 3000+ flying hours and even if we run 300 hrs / year it will take 10 years to finish its life and in 32 year only 5000 hours is used, so in simple maths that is 156.25hrs / year

F-16 Versions - F-16 ADF


----------



## Manticore

*Ready for operation against Taliban: PAF Chief*
By Ahmed Jatt | Apr 27th, 2014 | 9:31 pm | ( No Comment )


1 14118 






SARGODHA: Pakistan Air Force (PAF) head Air Chief Marshall Tahir Rafique Butt said on sunday that forces are ready for operation against Taliban militants.

The Air Chief Marshall was delivering speech at occasion of inclusion of used five F-16 fighter jet in PAF fleet which were bought from Jordan.
*Tahir Rafique Butt said conditions of bought F-16 is better and PAF will make them more better in future.*
Ready for operation against Taliban : PAF Chief Tahir Rafique Butt | The News Tribe
He said the acquisition of F-16 fleet from Kingdom of Jordan strengthened brotherly relation between the Air forces of friendly countries enhance the capability of PAF.

The PAF Chief forces have enough deterrence to tackle all challenges and only culprits and terrorists are hit during this kind of operation.

The Ambassador of Kingdom of Jordan was also present on the ocassion


==
*Tahir Rafique Butt said conditions of bought F-16 is better and PAF will make them more better in future.*


----------



## TOPGUN

Have any of the Jordanian f-16's come home to us yet ? rather then having dumb and useless talks here which make no sense ?


----------



## batmannow

TOPGUN said:


> Have any of the Jordanian f-16's come home to us yet ? rather then having dumb and useless talks here which make no sense ?


*PAF inducts first batch of F-16 fighter jets from Jordan*
DAWN.COM





— File photo
SARGODHA: Pakistan received on Sunday its first batch of F-16 fighter jets delivered from Jordan, DawnNews reported.

Sources said that the Pakistan had signed a contract with Jordan for the supply of 13 fighter jets out of which five were delivered at the Mushaf Mir Airbase in Sargodha and inducted in the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) fleet.

The inclusion of the 13 jets would take the strength of the PAF F-16s to 76.

Media reports indicated the PAF had agreed to purchase an entire squadron from Jordan, consisting of 12 A models and one B model. According to one news report, the jets "were in good condition since they had attained Mid-Life Update (MLU) and they would be providing service for another 20 years with almost 3,000 hours on average available to them for flying."



*just forget me not?*

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## SQ8

Informant said:


> Such good news. This must be a surprise for the Indians, now they would have to update their battle plans.
> 
> @Oscar These planes look beat? Whats the deal?



They are beat. The Jordanians have been using them less and less in the hopes to sell them. They are focusing on their more recent MLU fleet and saving up cash for a new fighter.


----------



## TOPGUN

Oscar said:


> They are beat. The Jordanians have been using them less and less in the hopes to sell them. They are focusing on their more recent MLU fleet and saving up cash for a new fighter.



They have been through MLU plus have many years of life left in them , and again they will be used for ADF roles so not a bad deal for us period .

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## [--Leo--]

do they have upgraded radar and BVR?


----------



## My-Analogous

TOPGUN said:


> They have been through MLU plus have many years of life left in them , and again they will be used for ADF roles so not a bad deal for us period .



That is what i was try to tell Imran bhai


----------



## TOPGUN

ghazaliy2k said:


> That is what i was try to tell Imran bhai




Lol Imran gets excited sometimes but overall knowing Imran he is a good chap all around

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## krash

[--Leo--] said:


> do they have upgraded radar and BVR?



Don't know about the radar but apparently they are BVR capable.


----------



## Donatello

If the news report is to be believed in which ACM says these F-16s will be improved further, then probably these don't have the full APG68(v5 v9 ?) radars or some ECM equipment. These are nevertheless very good for Land Attack and precision guidance roles, which makes me believe that PAF mopped these up to run the operations against the militants in North West, while saving the hours on other F-16s. Plus the full fleet of PAF is not available anyway, since a number of them are undergoing MLU and crew training.


----------



## Jango

Some interesting pics...

History of PIA - Forum :: View topic - Pakistan to Acquire Used F-16s from Jordan


----------



## truthseeker2010

any idea what is the cost of this buy?


----------



## air marshal

Video link





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152391557964919

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Neptune

Donatello said:


> Combat aircraft. And F-16s will fly as long as they seem fit. Turkey still flies the venerable F-4 Phantom



Just on a note; 54 are in active service with having two variants. One being RF-4E and the other one Israeli upgraded F-4 2020 Terminator. They support 239 F-16C/D CCIP/Block 50/50+ with reconnaissance and ground attack roles. They'll be phased out by 2015-2020 with the upcoming 100+16 F-35A/B orders. The first squadron to operate F35As will be 171th "Korsan" (Pirate) FİLO whom are currently flying with F-4 2020, they'll get the first two aircraft at 2015. Thank to God we'll get rid of them

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## My-Analogous

Donatello said:


> If the news report is to be believed in which ACM says these F-16s will be improved further, then probably these don't have the full APG68(v5 v9 ?) radars or some ECM equipment. These are nevertheless very good for Land Attack and precision guidance roles, which makes me believe that PAF mopped these up to run the operations against the militants in North West, while saving the hours on other F-16s. Plus the full fleet of PAF is not available anyway, since a number of them are undergoing MLU and crew training.


Bro read my previous post and follow the link, which clearly stated that these jets were for air defense roles that is ADF (air defense fighters)



Neptune said:


> Just on a note; 54 are in active service with having two variants. One being RF-4E and the other one Israeli upgraded F-4 2020 Terminator. They support 239 F-16C/D CCIP/Block 50/50+ with reconnaissance and ground attack roles. They'll be phased out by 2015-2020 with the upcoming 100+16 F-35A/B orders. The first squadron to operate F35As will be 171th "Korsan" (Pirate) FİLO whom are currently flying with F-4 2020, they'll get the first two aircraft at 2015. Thank to God we'll get rid of them



We will take good care of your F16's, 2015 means next year


----------



## Neptune

RaptorRX707 said:


> Now send them to Turkey for MLU upgrading at least 2 years or so.



If I am not wrong Jordanian vipers were already MLU upgraded by TAI. Here's TAI's page for RJAF's upgrade

RJAF F-16 Program - Turkish Aerospace Industries, Inc.



ghazaliy2k said:


> Bro read my previous post and follow the link, which clearly stated that these jets were for air defense roles that is ADF (air defense fighters)
> 
> 
> 
> We will take good care of your F16's, 2015 means next year



What do you mean. F-4s will be replaced by JSF next year, not F-16s

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Munir

air marshal said:


> Video link
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152391557964919



If we bought only 12 F16A MLU and 1 F16B MLU then how come they landed 2 F16B MLU ?

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Donatello

Munir said:


> If we bought only 12 F16A MLU and 1 F16B MLU then how come they landed 2 F16B MLU ?



Media bhi peeta hai, Mountain Dew!





Neptune said:


> Just on a note; 54 are in active service with having two variants. One being RF-4E and the other one Israeli upgraded F-4 2020 Terminator. They support 239 F-16C/D CCIP/Block 50/50+ with reconnaissance and ground attack roles. They'll be phased out by 2015-2020 with the upcoming 100+16 F-35A/B orders. The first squadron to operate F35As will be 171th "Korsan" (Pirate) FİLO whom are currently flying with F-4 2020, they'll get the first two aircraft at 2015. Thank to God we'll get rid of them



Hi,

I meant to merely tell Imran sahib that It's not the age that counts, but the versatility of the combat aircraft. Even though F-16 is a relatively 70s tech (actually late 60s) but they were heavily upgraded and the MLU/BLK52 versions are a brand new version. They are leaps ahead of the BLK A/B.

The fact that the later gen aircraft like Rafale/Gripen/Typhoon are still compared with F-16s, shows how far ahead that plane was when it rolled out in 1970s.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Munir

Since the already upgraded PAF f16's are top tech and the new block 52 are very fine these aircraft are indeed mainly planned to be used very extensively to counter terrorism in the western side of Pakistan. So we can have dedicated mud movers and precision ground attack and use our best F16's for national defense.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## rockstar08

Manticore said:


> US gives Jordan Patriot missiles and F16 jet fighters - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
> *US gives Jordan Patriot missiles and F16 jet fighters*
> Updated Thu 20 Jun 2013, 8:44am AEST
> 
> The US military is wrapping up a joint exercise in Jordan and leaving behind an unusual gift: Patriot missiles and F16 jet fighters. The idea that these might one day be used to enforce a no-fly zone, just across the border in Southern Syria, has angered Russia. The new hardware has been requested by Jordan's government which is concerned Syria's civil war could turn into a regional conflict.



are you sure about patriot missile system ?


----------



## Neptune

rockstar08 said:


> are you sure about patriot missile system ?



Nooo. US deployed patriots at Syrian-Jordanian border per Jordan's request. They are paying for it.



 Donatello said:


> Media bhi peeta hai, Mountain Dew!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I meant to merely tell Imran sahib that It's not the age that counts, but the versatility of the combat aircraft. Even though F-16 is a relatively 70s tech (actually late 60s) but they were heavily upgraded and the MLU/BLK52 versions are a brand new version. They are leaps ahead of the BLK A/B.
> 
> The fact that the later gen aircraft like Rafale/Gripen/Typhoon are still compared with F-16s, shows how far ahead that plane was when it rolled out in 1970s.



Hi. My aim was I mean, F16 is a legend for sure but I can't say the same For Phantoms. Even the heaviest upgrade can't keep them "fresh" nowadays.


----------



## Bratva

Neptune said:


> Just on a note; 54 are in active service with having two variants. One being RF-4E and the other one Israeli upgraded F-4 2020 Terminator. They support 239 F-16C/D CCIP/Block 50/50+ with reconnaissance and ground attack roles. They'll be phased out by 2015-2020 with the upcoming 100+16 F-35A/B orders. *The first squadron to operate F35As will be 171th "Korsan" (Pirate) FİLO whom are currently flying with F-4 2020, they'll get the first two aircraft at 2015. Thank to God we'll get rid of them *



Offtopic but, a direct leap from F-4 to F-35? Wouldn't it better, some F-16 squadron converts to F-35 and then convert F-4 squadron to F-16 and phase out F-4?


----------



## VelocuR

Neptune said:


> If I am not wrong Jordanian vipers were already MLU upgraded by TAI. Here's TAI's page for RJAF's upgrade
> 
> RJAF F-16 Program - Turkish Aerospace Industries, Inc.



Interesting, I see some MLU upgrade done on F16A/B, how come they can't be under Block 40 standards? 

I hope PAF will upgrade it again.


----------



## Neptune

RaptorRX707 said:


> Interesting, I see some MLU upgrade done on F16A/B, how come they can't be under Block 40 standards?
> 
> I hope PAF will upgrade it again.



Block 40 requires for C and D variants of Viper


----------



## SQ8

TOPGUN said:


> They have been through MLU plus have many years of life left in them , and again they will be used for ADF roles so not a bad deal for us period .


Yes, not a bad deal for us.. but not a bad deal for Jordan either. Them being beat is just their being "left alone" for a customer by Jordan. They might get a fresh coat of paint soon.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## VelocuR

Neptune said:


> Block 40 requires for C and D variants of Viper



Ah I see. It make sense now, these F-16 Block 15A/B MLU will be inducted to PAF, that's it. I don't know why these deals are excellent but not bad. 

Jordan's history trade F16s with some countries. 
Royal Jordanian Air Force F-16s

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Haitham

i think this deal is not good for Pakistan 
Pakistan needs air superiority fighter.....Pakistan already has many F-16s and JF-17 considered to be like F-16
So Pakistan needs aircraft like Typhoon for example
I like the best for Pakistan

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Neptune

mafiya said:


> Offtopic but, a direct leap from F-4 to F-35? Wouldn't it better, some F-16 squadron converts to F-35 and then convert F-4 squadron to F-16 and phase out F-4?



I don't know. In fact, if you remember the jet downed by Syria. They were also from the 171th. Due to recent events all combat squadrons are at highest readiness level right now except for the 171th which is demobilized. Thus, Malatya AJÜ (HQ of them) has reported that the Squadron is ready for transformation.


----------



## Stealth

Pakistan Airforce should save some money. IMO J31 if improved with Chinese engine, that one will be great choice.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Bilal.

Haitham said:


> i think this deal is not good for Pakistan
> Pakistan needs air superiority fighter.....Pakistan already has many F-16s and JF-17 considered to be like F-16
> So Pakistan needs aircraft like Typhoon for example
> I like the best for Pakistan



Thanks bro but for next 5-7 years we need to focus on economy without indulging in expensive weapons deals. Once our economy is strong then we can buy typhoons or similar aircrafts.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Haitham

Bilal. said:


> Thanks bro but for next 5-7 years we need to focus on economy without indulging in expensive weapons deals. Once our economy is strong then we can buy typhoons or similar aircrafts.


That is good plan....
and also you have the nuclear shield and that is very good you can overcome gaps in other weapons

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## SQ8

Neptune said:


> If I am not wrong Jordanian vipers were already MLU upgraded by TAI.



The MLU was carried out on the Peace Falcon II Purchase. These aircraft are from Peace Falcon-I mostly and of 2sq RJAF(which may be put on cold status till a new platform arrives to take its place or F-16s from other squadrons are assigned to it)

2sq RJAF had 14 airframes assigned to it from 220 to 235 but 224 crashed in 2008 leaving 13 airframes which are now the PAF's.



RaptorRX707 said:


> Interesting, I see some MLU upgrade done on F16A/B, how come they can't be under Block 40 standards?
> 
> I hope PAF will upgrade it again.





Neptune said:


> Block 40 requires for C and D variants of Viper



Block 40 is a vague descriptor. Block 40 may mean structural standards, avionics standards.. etc. In terms of structure, the Peace Falcon-I articles are capable of mounting the latest engine which is the PW-220E. In terms of avionics they are essentially Block-15s and not MLUs. A MLU may be performed on them using the same process from TAI as those from Peace Falcon-II.



RaptorRX707 said:


> Ah I see. It make sense now, these F-16 Block 15A/B MLU will be inducted to PAF, that's it. I don't know why these deals are excellent but not bad.
> 
> Jordan's history trade F16s with some countries.
> Royal Jordanian Air Force F-16s



These are F-16 Block 15 ADFs.. they have been MLU'ed but that standard of MLU is old and essentially out of date. It does allow them however the ability to use the AIM-120 AMRAAM which makes them potent Air Defence aircraft. 

Still, If I am to understand the PAF's idea.. these airframe may be MLU'ed again through TAI to bring them up to the current PAF MLU standard or they may be left as they are. 13 aircraft are insufficient to form a new squadron so it is possible.

The PAF had 32 F-16s left over from Peace Gate-I&II .. Since then it received 12 F-16 A/Bs(some in MLU and some not) from its Peace Gate III & IV order of which 11 are left after 1 crashed in 2008. That gives it 43 F-16 A/B(MLU).. add to that the 18 Block-52..which makes it 61 and now the 13 RJAF F-16ADF which makes it 74 aircraft.

Now both 5, 9 and 11 sqs have 18 F-16s each. An option may be taken to beef up 9 and 11 sq with 6 and 7 F-16s to beef their strength or somehow 5 other F-16s have to be found to form a squadron.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Bilal.

So @Oscar did we figure out how weapons are getting transferred via jordan in a hush hush way

First cobras, now F-solas...


----------



## MilSpec

Bilal. said:


> So @Oscar did we figure out how weapons are getting transferred via jordan in a hush hush way
> 
> First cobras, now F-solas...


No hush hush required, Jordan is pentagons back office.


----------



## ali_raza

i think paf should ask nawaz to convince saudis to pay for 18 optional blk52s...that will be a great deal.


----------



## Bratva

Bilal. said:


> So @Oscar did we figure out how weapons are getting transferred via jordan in a hush hush way
> 
> First cobras, now F-solas...



Next one would be AIM-9X and if we still remain lucky, MLRS

Most probably, we get those weapon by exploiting a loophole which is M-NNR does not require congress approval. Presidential is enough.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Bilal.

sandy_3126 said:


> No hush hush required, Jordan is pentagons back office.



Of course it's being funnelled via Jordan by US but it's being done very quietly.



mafiya said:


> Next one would be AIM-9X and if we still remain lucky, MLRS



Yes, it's being reported since a few months... Hope for the best

One possibility might be, and I am speculating, that some agreement has been reached on post withdrawal settings in the region.


----------



## MilSpec

Bilal. said:


> Of course it's being funnelled via Jordan by US but it's *being done very quietly.*


And why would be that?


----------



## Bilal.

sandy_3126 said:


> And why would be that?



No idea! We did not see the usual DSCA announcement or did I miss it?


----------



## ziaulislam

sandy_3126 said:


> And why would be that?



indian lobbying of course, you do remember the trouble george bush was in congress when approving f-16s. if it comes to congress it wouldnt go quietly and a huge list of undoable things will be attached.
that is the case with the frigates that were to be given to pak navy


----------



## MilSpec

ziaulislam said:


> indian lobbying of course, you do remember the trouble george bush was in congress when approving f-16s. if it comes to congress it wouldnt go quietly and a huge list of undoable things will be attached.
> that is the case with the frigates that were to be given to pak navy


US doesn't give a damn about India's objections. It has and will keep arming Pakistan against India.


----------



## Bratva

Bilal. said:


> No idea! We did not see the usual DSCA announcement or did I miss it?



We didn't bought F-16's from America. All we needed was permission from America. Normally in Pakistan case, it usually comes through congress or senate. But some exceptions exist which can be exploited and were exploited where President can approve directly and quietly without ny notification

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Informant

@Oscar why oh why dont we change the paint scheme on our Solas. I mean it is the WORST scheme of all the forces fielding the Solas. 

Some orange, some desert camo, something, anything other than boring gray.

Please convey this to higher ups. One or two planes should have bright orange or a fluorescent color like the Turks.


----------



## ziaulislam

sandy_3126 said:


> US doesn't give a damn about India's objections. It has and will keep arming Pakistan against India.


_what i meant is that both govt lobby for and against weapon sale to pakistan. now adays we all know our image has gone from average to worst especially after bin laden saga, simultaneously india has become the forefront to USA proxy against china


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------_
US Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, who visited New Delhi around the same time, was strongly told that any sale of fighter jets to Pakistan might affect India-US relations. The US in turn tried to placate an incensed India over Washington's impending arms sale to Pakistan by offering to sell more weapons to New Delhi. India also sacked its high-profile US lobbying firm, Akin Gump Strauss Hauer and Field, in order to make a fresh start and inroads into the US establishment. Pakistan, at last count, has appointed no fewer than eight law firms to plead its case in various forums of the US legislature and executive.
*Late last year, Washington pledged a $1.2 billion arms package to Islamabad, though there was no categorical mention of the F-16 jets
In December, India claimed a partial victory in thwarting Pakistan's F-16 shopping spree by saying that Belgium had agreed to New Delhi's request not to sell the fighter jets to Islamabad. The issue of Pakistan's formal request to Belgium to procure F-16 jets was taken up with the Belgian authorities in September 2003*, I_ndian Defense Minister Pranab Mukherjee said in parliament. "Given the sensitivity of the geopolitical situation in South Asia, the Belgian government took a conscious decision not to sell F-16 fighter aircraft to Pakistan," Mukherjee announced amid desk-thumping by the lawmakers._
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/GB10Df05.html


----------



## VelocuR

Thank you sir for very informative, I appreciate it. 



Oscar said:


> The MLU was carried out on the Peace Falcon II Purchase. These aircraft are from Peace Falcon-I mostly and of 2sq RJAF(which may be put on cold status till a new platform arrives to take its place or F-16s from other squadrons are assigned to it)
> 
> 2sq RJAF had 14 airframes assigned to it from 220 to 235 but 224 crashed in 2008 leaving 13 airframes which are now the PAF's.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Block 40 is a vague descriptor. Block 40 may mean structural standards, avionics standards.. etc. In terms of structure, the Peace Falcon-I articles are capable of mounting the latest engine which is the PW-220E. In terms of avionics they are essentially Block-15s and not MLUs. A MLU may be performed on them using the same process from TAI as those from Peace Falcon-II.
> 
> 
> 
> These are F-16 Block 15 ADFs.. they have been MLU'ed but that standard of MLU is old and essentially out of date. It does allow them however the ability to use the AIM-120 AMRAAM which makes them potent Air Defence aircraft.
> 
> Still, If I am to understand the PAF's idea.. these airframe may be MLU'ed again through TAI to bring them up to the current PAF MLU standard or they may be left as they are. 13 aircraft are insufficient to form a new squadron so it is possible.
> 
> The PAF had 32 F-16s left over from Peace Gate-I&II .. Since then it received 12 F-16 A/Bs(some in MLU and some not) from its Peace Gate III & IV order of which 11 are left after 1 crashed in 2008. That gives it 43 F-16 A/B(MLU).. add to that the 18 Block-52..which makes it 61 and now the 13 RJAF F-16ADF which makes it 74 aircraft.
> 
> Now both 5, 9 and 11 sqs have 18 F-16s each. An option may be taken to beef up 9 and 11 sq with 6 and 7 F-16s to beef their strength or somehow 5 other F-16s have to be found to form a squadron.


----------



## Viper0011.

Oscar said:


> Apparently they have.
> @VCheng @orangzaib Possibly one of the quietest deals in history in terms of the US DSCA ???


 
I don't know all the laws about DCSA and associated regulations. But I do know one thing, the notification had to have happened in some form or shape. There are multiple factors here. For example, if these plans were to be used in an offense against the Taliban or in support of the coallition forces, then the Pentagon (I believe) and / or the US president has the authority to issue a waiver or bundle this with other munitions deal. There could also be that Jordan wants to buy something else and they signed some contract say 3 years ago, and the terms of those contract include stipulations that Jordan will have the option to sell these jets back to the US or someone else. Now in this case, these are older versions compared to the USAF and ANG standards. So theoretically or technical, these would then become EDA's. In which case, MNNA status means they go to one of the MNNA allies and thus what you guys refer to "quiet transition". But its never that silent. The US has extremely strict laws and punishments (Boeing and other have been through those due to doing business in China, etc before). So things don't slip away. They either have a waiver or the law backing up the transfer to an MNNA country due to certain classification for EDA's. Plus the US would still get more business by providing further upgrade kits to Pakistan (or has already provided so). So nothing is new here. It's just how this was packaged and put together.

Plus, no matter how much the Indians object to this, 16 or even 50 or 75 fighters don't really present a danger to them. 50 or 75 used jets is no offensive force when the Indians have SU-30's, Mirage 2000-9's, Mig-29's and to-come-soon Rafale state of the art planes (not to count other forms of the Migs and the strike packages including Jaguars, etc)....combined number is about 450-500 specific to just Pakistan. What could 32 or 50 or 75 jets do offensively? Probably not much. The only role these planes will have is to defend the Pakistani airspace.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## longbowman

"dumb move should spend the money on thunder but heck dumb paf top brass."[/quote]

sir I think high rank officials have served the country for more than 35 years. they are more aware and experienced about the current situations. if they have taken a decision, it would be the best at this time.


----------



## Donatello

Oscar said:


> The MLU was carried out on the Peace Falcon II Purchase. These aircraft are from Peace Falcon-I mostly and of 2sq RJAF(which may be put on cold status till a new platform arrives to take its place or F-16s from other squadrons are assigned to it)
> 
> 2sq RJAF had 14 airframes assigned to it from 220 to 235 but 224 crashed in 2008 leaving 13 airframes which are now the PAF's.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Block 40 is a vague descriptor. Block 40 may mean structural standards, avionics standards.. etc. In terms of structure, the Peace Falcon-I articles are capable of mounting the latest engine which is the PW-220E. In terms of avionics they are essentially Block-15s and not MLUs. A MLU may be performed on them using the same process from TAI as those from Peace Falcon-II.
> 
> 
> 
> These are F-16 Block 15 ADFs.. they have been MLU'ed but that standard of MLU is old and essentially out of date. It does allow them however the ability to use the AIM-120 AMRAAM which makes them potent Air Defence aircraft.
> 
> Still, If I am to understand the PAF's idea.. these airframe may be MLU'ed again through TAI to bring them up to the current PAF MLU standard or they may be left as they are. 13 aircraft are insufficient to form a new squadron so it is possible.
> 
> The PAF had 32 F-16s left over from Peace Gate-I&II .. Since then it received 12 F-16 A/Bs(some in MLU and some not) from its Peace Gate III & IV order of which 11 are left after 1 crashed in 2008. That gives it 43 F-16 A/B(MLU).. add to that the 18 Block-52..which makes it 61 and now the 13 RJAF F-16ADF which makes it 74 aircraft.
> 
> Now both 5, 9 and 11 sqs have 18 F-16s each. An option may be taken to beef up 9 and 11 sq with 6 and 7 F-16s to beef their strength or somehow 5 other F-16s have to be found to form a squadron.




14 aircraft were delivered from the embargoed quota. 32+14+18=64 minus one attrition, it was 63. Add 13 from Jordan, it is 76 as quoted in the media.

And i believe the ACM as said that we will upgrade them further. Makes sense since Pakistan ordered around 60 MLU kits, or had approval for those.

76/4=19 jets per squadron if 4 squadrons.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Manticore



Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Manticore

*F-16 At 40 – Pt.7 – Royal Jordanian Fighting Falcons*
by Paul Dunn | Apr 10, 2014 | F-16 at 40, Feature, Military Aviation | 0 comments

*One of a number of States in the Middle East to operate the F-16, Jordan has been a keen purchaser of second hand jets over the last two decades, building up a substantial fleet in the process. Paul Dunn gives an overview of the RJAF F-16 fleet, with images by Kevin Wills.*





© Kevin Wills – The Global Aviation Resource Family of Websites

In 1994, Jordan signed a peace treaty with Israel, bringing to an end around 40 years of animosity between the two neighbouring nations, which had led to war on several occasions. This new era of peace brought some concessions from the US, in particular relating to the supply of military hardware. The Jordanian government quickly made known its desire to bolster its Air Force (the Royal Jordanian Air Force) with the acquisition of F-16s, in the form of used, ex-USAF airframes.





© Kevin Wills – The Global Aviation Resource Family of Websites

In the mid-1990s, the end of the Cold War was bringing with it large shifts in the size and composition of the USAF; increasing numbers of surplus F-16C/Ds were passing from the reduced number of active duty units, and mainly replacing earlier aircraft in service with the ANG. The Guard had also seen its air defence role virtually disappear, and these two factors collectively meant the demise of the F-16 ADF (Air Defence Fighter). This was the only version of the F-16 to serve the US as a dedicated fighter aircraft, and equipped many ANG units in the late 1980s and early 1990s. However, its career as such was cut short by the change in the international political situation, and aircraft were placed in storage with plenty of life left in them. These jets were to prove popular with several countries looking to add a capable interceptor aircraft to their air forces at a relatively reasonable cost.





© Kevin Wills – The Global Aviation Resource Family of Websites

Jordan was one such nation; shortly after the signing of the accords with Israel, it entered into negotiations with the US for acquisition of an initial leased batch of F-16s. Before such a deal could proceed, the US was keen that its closest regional ally, Israel itself, approve of the transaction. In fact, Israel gave the deal its full support, presumably seeing Jordan as a moderate influence in a turbulent region, and a nation with which it was able to build closer ties. In July 1996, a lease agreement was signed by the US and Jordan for 16 F-16s (12 F-16As and four F-16Bs), all of which were Block 15OCU upgraded to ADF standard. The aircraft were in storage at AMARC, having previously served with the ANG, and were to be refurbished at Ogden Air Logistics Center at Hill AFB, UT, before being delivered to the RJAF. The deal was dubbed Peace Falcon I.





© Kevin Wills – The Global Aviation Resource Family of Websites

The first of the Peace Falcon I jets was delivered to Al Azraq (As Shaheed Muwaffaq Al-Salti) AB in Jordan in December 1997. The initial aircraft were allocated to the 2nd Squadron RJAF, bringing a huge upgraded in air defence capability for the country. For the first time, the RJAF had an interceptor capable of launching BVR (beyond visual range) weapons; although the aircraft supplied were able to fire the AIM-120 AMRAAM, this weapon was not covered by the initial deal, so the RJAF used the less capable AIM-7 Sparrow at first.





© Kevin Wills – The Global Aviation Resource Family of Websites

Delivery of this first batch was completed in 1998, and shortly thereafter, negotiations for the supply of further airframes began. These talks came to fruition in 2003 when delivery of a second batch of 17 aircraft (16 F-16As and a single F-16B) began. Many of these Peace Falcon II aircraft were actually delivered into storage, pending the integration of the MLU (Mid Life Upgrade) package. The aircraft were upgraded by TUSAS in Ankara, Turkey and entered service in 2007-09.





© Kevin Wills – The Global Aviation Resource Family of Websites

The Jordanians were to add four further batches of used F-16s (Peace Falcon III-VI) over the next few years, from a different source. Both Belgium and the Netherlands bought large fleets of F-16s, but in more recent years both sought to reduce the size of their air forces. Both nations sought to sell off their surplus jets, by this stage consisting of upgraded Block 20MLU standard aircraft which were much more capable than the Block 15 ADFs already in service. Notably, the MLU aircraft were multirole machines, able to perform attack missions in addition to air combat.





© Kevin Wills – The Global Aviation Resource Family of Websites

The total number of aircraft acquired from the European nations so far is 31, the majority (18 F-16AMs and seven F-16BMs) coming from Belgium, the remainder consisting of six F-16BMs acquired from Holland. These are apparently to be joined later this year by a further 15 jets acquired from Holland, which would bring the total number of aircraft operated to close to 80. However it was recently reported that ‘a squadron’ of MLU F-16s has been sold to Pakistan, although it is not yet known which aircraft are involved in this deal.





© Kevin Wills – The Global Aviation Resource Family of Websites

Progressive acquisition of more batches of F-16s has allowed Jordan to upgrade its Air Force, which had up until then relied on fairly old F-5E/Fs and Mirage F1CJ/EJs. All of these earlier types are thought to have been retired, in favour of the F-16 and currently, Jordan has three squadrons equipped with F-16s. The 2nd Squadron operates the former USAF F-16 ADF Peace Falcon I aircraft and purely has an air defence role. The 1st and 6th Squadron operate Block 20MLU standard aircraft, with a multirole tasking. The F-16 fleet remains concentrated at Al Azraq AB in eastern Jordan where it has been based throughout its Jordanian service career.










more
F-16 At 40 – Pt.7 – Royal Jordanian Fighting Falcons | GAR

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Manticore

*Next time we look at a pilot’s eye view of going to war in an F-16…*


----------



## Rashid Mahmood

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=628170990586556

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## Kompromat

Rashid Mahmood said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=628170990586556



Sir can you pls post the link, i need this video for upload.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Slayer786

AsianUnion said:


> Great, if true , will be a good stop gap measure.




Exactly. until we are able to afford buying new planes, we will have to make do with these planes. And these planes have still some years remaining. But hopefully until that time we are financially able to afford new planes by that time.


----------



## fatman17

Slayer786 said:


> Exactly. until we are able to afford buying new planes, we will have to make do with these planes. And these planes have still some years remaining. But hopefully until that time we are financially able to afford new planes by that time.


 
what do u mean 'great if true'.....!!!

VCheng......i told u so mate...!

inducted in 19Sqdn.


----------



## Manticore

*Analyst hails acquisition of F-16 jet fighters*
Analyst hails acquisition of F-16 jet fighters
Monday, 28 April 2014 11:36
Posted by Parvez Jabri











2




ISLAMABAD: Air Martial Masood Akhtar (Retd) has said that provision of F-16 fighter jets to Pakistan by Jordan is good news.

Talking to Radio Pakistan, he said through this, the efficiency of Pakistan Air Force and other security institutions would be improved.

Masood Akhtar said that cache of F-16 would make us more capable to respond any foreign aggression.

Regarding the terms and conditions in using of fighters jets, he said that Pakistan has already decided not to adopt policy of aggression against any country, adding that if other does so, then we can use the fighter jets for our defence.

He said that Pakistan can also use them in war against terrorism.


----------



## Windjammer

Damn, that was some entry and reception and for once the cameramen managed to capture the fly pasts in it's glory.
Once a military historian wrote that the induction of F-16s has completely changed the psyche of the PAF and some thirty years later it still has the same effect.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## OrionHunter

cb4 said:


>



Whatever one may say, the F-16 is the sexiest looking aircraft on planet Earth!

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## Zarvan

Manticore said:


> *Analyst hails acquisition of F-16 jet fighters*
> Analyst hails acquisition of F-16 jet fighters
> Monday, 28 April 2014 11:36
> Posted by Parvez Jabri
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ISLAMABAD: Air Martial Masood Akhtar (Retd) has said that provision of F-16 fighter jets to Pakistan by Jordan is good news.
> 
> Talking to Radio Pakistan, he said through this, the efficiency of Pakistan Air Force and other security institutions would be improved.
> 
> Masood Akhtar said that cache of F-16 would make us more capable to respond any foreign aggression.
> 
> Regarding the terms and conditions in using of fighters jets, he said that Pakistan has already decided not to adopt policy of aggression against any country, adding that if other does so, then we can use the fighter jets for our defence.
> 
> He said that Pakistan can also use them in war against terrorism.


@BLACKEAGLE Thanks a lot for these F-16

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## fatman17

PAF inducts first batch of F-16 fighter jets from Jordan
DAWN.COM‹ ›

— File photo
SARGODHA: Pakistan received on Sunday its first batch of F-16 fighter jets delivered from Jordan, DawnNews reported.

Sources said that the Pakistan had signed a contract with Jordan for the supply of 13 fighter jets out of which five were delivered at the Mushaf Mir Airbase in Sargodha and inducted in the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) fleet.

The inclusion of the 13 jets would take the strength of the PAF F-16s to 76.

Media reports indicated the PAF had agreed to purchase an entire squadron from Jordan, consisting of 12 A models and one B model. According to one news report, the jets "were in good condition since they had attained Mid-Life Update (MLU) and they would be providing service for another 20 years with almost 3,000 hours on average available to them for flying."


----------



## MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n

Aeronaut said:


> Next target MLU-M-V snow vipers from Norway.


is it your speculation or information ?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Manticore



Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## Manticore



Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Windjammer

As expected the aircraft were ferried by PAF pilots, does any one know the distance from Jordan to Pakistan.


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

Munir said:


> If we bought only 12 F16A MLU and 1 F16B MLU then how come they landed 2 F16B MLU ?


My dear these are not MLU but Block-15 ADFs.


----------



## Zarvan

@Aeronaut I Man even their was news of Netherlands also looking forward to sell its F-16 what about them


----------



## Windjammer

DANGER-ZONE said:


> My dear these are not MLU but Block-15 ADFs.



I thought of the ''A'' and ''B'' models, only the MLU support the Bird cutter radar antennas. ?? !!


----------



## Zarvan

By the way hope we can get more F-16 from Norway and Netherlands and Denmark they are looking forward to buy F-35 to replace their F-16


----------



## Luftwaffe

Windjammer said:


> As expected the aircraft were ferried by PAF pilots, does any one know the distance from Jordan to Pakistan.



Approximately 2139+ Miles [that's for Amman to Sargodha]

Do we know flight path...did these F-16s fly over Iran? general flight path and distance shows a direct flight over Iran.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

Windjammer said:


> I thought of the ''A'' and ''B'' models, only the MLU support the Bird cutter radar antennas. ?? !!











> The ADF aircraft can be distinguished from "standard" F-16A/B's by several external identifying features, such as long and thin horizontal bulges on the base of the vertical tail (only A-models), plus a set of four blade antenna, nicknamed_"bird-slicer"_, carried just forward of the canopy (as part of the IFF system).


F-16 Versions - F-16 ADF

Jordan have both F-16 MLUs and ADFs.
Their MLU are quite new and upto Block - 40 / 50 standard while ADFs are of Block-15 standard. So we are getting ADFs Block-15 ones not MLU ones.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Windjammer

Luftwaffe said:


> Approximately 2139+ Miles [that's for Amman to Sargodha]
> 
> Do we know flight path...did these F-16s fly over Iran? general flight path and distance shows a direct flight over Iran.


With an F-16s ferry range of over 2600 miles, it was obviously a one legged flight and i don't see why Iran wouldn't allow a ferry flight through it's airspace but you have to admire the guys strapped into the seat for some five hours without even able to stretch a leg.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Luftwaffe

Windjammer said:


> With an F-16s ferry range of over 2600 miles, it was obviously a one legged flight and i don't see why Iran wouldn't allow a ferry flight through it's airspace but you have to admire the guys strapped into the seat for some five hours without even able to stretch a leg.



Flying 4 hours above deserts and mountains...man these distinguished pilots learn alot about Terrain every flight counts.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Windjammer

A very reliable source tells me that TWO more should arrive today.


----------



## Informant

OrionHunter said:


> Whatever one may say, the F-16 is the sexiest looking aircraft on planet Earth!



A-10 after that. I for some reason never had a liking for the design of Flankers. I'm in the minority of such an opinion. 

After A-10 then it's Tomcat.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## krash

Manticore said:


>



Fourth* operational F-16 unit.



Windjammer said:


> With an F-16s ferry range of over 2600 miles, it was obviously a one legged flight and i don't see why Iran wouldn't allow a ferry flight through it's airspace but *you have to admire the guys strapped into the seat for some five hours without even able to stretch a leg.*



Meh....five hours is nothing to be honest. Especially if you love it.


----------



## Windjammer

krash said:


> Fourth* operational F-16 unit.
> 
> 
> 
> Meh....five hours is nothing to be honest. Especially if you love it.



When ferrying, it's basically above clouds, flat flight, no rolls, bank, breaks or Cuban eight... the best a pilot can do is move his neck around to look at his wing men.


----------



## krash

Windjammer said:


> When ferrying, it's basically above clouds, flat flight, no rolls, bank, breaks or Cuban eight... the best a pilot can do is move his neck around to look at his wing men.



Yeah I get that. Was comparing it to 14+ hour flights cramped in an economy seat with my long legs. But I'm no fighter pilot so probably can't compare.



Oscar said:


> The PAF had 32 F-16s left over from Peace Gate-I&II .. Since then it received 12 F-16 A/Bs(some in MLU and some not) from its Peace Gate III & IV order of which 11 are left after 1 crashed in 2008. That gives it 43 F-16 A/B(MLU).. add to that the 18 Block-52..which makes it 61 and now the 13 RJAF F-16ADF which makes it 74 aircraft.
> 
> Now both 5, 9 and 11 sqs have 18 F-16s each. An option may be taken to beef up 9 and 11 sq with 6 and 7 F-16s to beef their strength or somehow 5 other F-16s have to be found to form a squadron.



Last I read, this purchase would increase the number to 76. 18 block 52+ and 58 block 15s. 58/3 gives us 19.333... which means that we can have 19, 19 and 20 birds in the 3 non block 52+ squadrons. Even if we take the total as 74 it would give us 3 squadrons of 18, 19 and 19 birds each or 18, 18 and 20 each. So I guess some birds will be shuffled from the No. 9 and/or the No. 11.


----------



## Informant

Windjammer said:


> When ferrying, it's basically above clouds, flat flight, no rolls, bank, breaks or Cuban eight... the best a pilot can do is move his neck around to look at his wing men.



Do they fly in a V formation when travelling long distances?

Please i see you hold a little sway over officials, could you please askk them to change paint scheme from the miserable gray doom gloom to something spunky like the Turks with their neon orange paint jobs and chrome reds.


----------



## Manticore

Informant said:


> Do they fly in a V formation when travelling long distances?
> 
> Please i see you hold a little sway over officials, could you please askk them to change paint scheme from the miserable gray doom gloom to something spunky like the Turks with their neon orange paint jobs and chrome reds.


the colour matches the colour of our sky - so the aircraft wont stand out

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## krash

Informant said:


> Do they fly in a V formation when travelling long distances?
> 
> Please i see you hold a little sway over officials, could you please askk them to change paint scheme from the miserable gray doom gloom to something spunky like the Turks with their neon orange paint jobs and chrome reds.



Man, you're pulling our legs aren't you? The neon orange and chrome red jobs are just for display. The Turkish operational units have the blueish grey colours, exactly like what you saw on the birds we just received. Did you mean the Egyptian F-16s?

I for one love our 16's scheme. It's asymmetric, unique to PAF and with the new light grey nose cone it looks awesome. Plus like Manticore said ^^^ it works well with our skies.

I mean just look at it,

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## SQ8

Windjammer said:


> I thought of the ''A'' and ''B'' models, only the MLU support the Bird cutter radar antennas. ?? !!


These are IFF antenna's for MLU , which was carried out even back in the late 80's and 90's.



> The Hazeltine APX-111(V1) Advanced Identification Friend-or-Foe system (AIFF) with increased range performance (100 Nm) will operate via four (rather striking) antennas mounted on the upper forward fuselage in front of the canopy. These "bird slicers", more formally known as Upper Interogator Fuselage Mounted Antenna (FMA) Array, will be the most noticeable exterior change of the Mid Life Update.
> 
> The benefits of this AIFF system will be the support for BVR weapons delivery in excess of Radar/Missile limits and the enhanced situational awareness which reduces the chance of a fratricide.



The ADF derivatives also have a nice spotlight to the their side... looks like these have the provision for it as well.


----------



## Windjammer

krash said:


> Yeah I get that. Was comparing it to 14+ hour flights cramped in an economy seat with my long legs. But I'm no fighter pilot so probably can't compare.



Yea but ask your self, how many times or as many times you can get out of your seat to go to the bathroom or walk up and down the aisle or stand around chatting to staff or fellow passengers or even relax with a movie...
Any ways got this info on these F-16s.


All these Block-15s are EDA. After signing peace treaty with Israel, Jordan got these ex-USAF EDA's in 1997/98 and a second batch of ex-Belgian F-16AM/BMs in 2008 and 2011 (again those were also MLU). The one's we got are Block-15 EDAs and all of them were MLU'ed by TAI in 2005, bringing them on par with Block-52s, the only exception being CFTs and less powerful engine. In fact TAI did MLU on 17 aircraft. The A/B models which have those IFF/Bird cutters infront of canopy are all MLU'ed...that's the sign of A/B aircraft going through MLU.

Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## Informant

krash said:


> Man, you're pulling our legs aren't you? The neon orange and chrome red jobs are just for display. The Turkish operational units have the blueish grey colours, exactly like what you saw on the birds we just received. Did you mean the Egyptian F-16s?
> 
> I for one love our 16's scheme. It's asymmetric, unique to PAF and with the new light grey nose cone it looks awesome. Plus like Manticore said ^^^ it works well with our skies.
> 
> I mean just look at it,



Yeah just look at Israel's camo, boss camo is what it is. This snoozefest camo is snooze worthy. So about time we change to something different.

So what if a few are for display, atleast we get to see them. 

Plus camouflage are of no use in today's world. Radar's have made them obsolete. 



Manticore said:


> the colour matches the colour of our sky - so the aircraft wont stand out



Gone are the days of WW II my friend. Now you are on the radar the moment you take off.


----------



## krash

Informant said:


> Yeah just look at Israel's camo, boss camo is what it is. This snoozefest camo is snooze worthy. So about time we change to something different.
> 
> So what if a few are for display, atleast we get to see them.
> 
> Plus camouflage are of no use in today's world. Radar's have made them obsolete.
> 
> 
> 
> Gone are the days of WW II my friend. Now you are on the radar the moment you take off.



Imagine a close in fight, radars are useless, your manoeuvres are rapid, that split second for which the enemy looses your sight is all it takes for you to secure his six. Plus radars still aren't that omnipotent. Switch off your signatures, fly low enough and you get precious minutes of being undetected.

@Windjammer can tell you the story of how two of our 16s crept behind some fulcrums(?) undetected, during Kargil. Or how our F-6s and Mirages gave a slight of hand to the US F-15s and a Carrier group a few times.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Informant

krash said:


> Imagine a close in fight, radars are useless, your manoeuvres are rapid, that split second for which the enemy looses your sight is all it takes for you to secure his six. Plus radars still aren't that omnipotent. Switch off your signatures, fly low enough and you get precious minutes of being undetected.
> 
> @Windjammer can tell you the story of how two of our 16s crept behind some fulcrums(?) undetected, during Kargil. Or how our F-6s and Mirages gave a slight of hand to the US F-15s and a Carrier group a few times.



I'm not asking all of them, a few would liven up the display.


----------



## krash

Informant said:


> I'm not asking all of them, a few would liven up the display.



Edit:

Argh....misunderstood your post. Anyway, we can't afford any risks with anyone of our birds, they cost a lot of money and in times of war might cost a lot more.

On topic:

Anyone has any idea what the ETA is on the remaining birds?


----------



## Munir

Do not want to spoil all the fun but these are the oldest birds around which need terrible maintenance. I can start a list of points but I have seen thousands of F16's from every European nation to AMARC... I have seen these ones also in real. Trust me. Nobody else would buy them or be able to turn these into good planes besides PAF. We are able to buy dumps of rusting Mirages into fine flying operational jets. These birds will do fine. But right now I would be not smiling at all.


----------



## Irfan Baloch

Informant said:


> Gone are the days of WW II my friend. Now you are on the radar the moment you take off.



this is not entirely true. radar is not the only mode of detection. visual detection still plays its part both in air and on ground hence the pilots need to have insane level of vision. 
in real situations we always fall back to the basics. painting a plane like a red baron letter box is never going to be a good idea. where radar can be fooled, the human vision wont.

remember that the planes can be stealthy but they cant be invisible to the eye. 

case in point RBS-70... the missile is locked with the help of visual lock and the gunner keeps the sight on the plane while the missile is in flight to its target.


----------



## Informant

Irfan Baloch said:


> this is not entirely true. radar is not the only mode of detection. visual detection still plays its part both in air and on ground hence the pilots need to have insane level of vision.
> in real situations we always fall back to the basics. painting a plane like a red baron letter box is never going to be a good idea. where radar can be fooled, the human vision wont.
> 
> remember that the planes can be stealthy but they cant be invisible to the eye.
> 
> case in point RBS-70... the missile is locked with the help of visual lock and the gunner keeps the sight on the plane while the missile is in flight to its target.



RBS 70 is a manpad system. They are of no consequence. No plane would go on a strafing run into where they know about the risk of AAA fire. 

In today's battlefield it's all about BVR warfare. If you have to go WVR then you succeed. And that is a big if. During Kargil the Indians locked onto our F-16 and we could just hold our joysticks so to speak.


----------



## Irfan Baloch

Informant said:


> RBS 70 is a manpad system. They are of no consequence. No plane would go on a strafing run into where they know about the risk of AAA fire.
> 
> In today's battlefield it's all about BVR warfare. If you have to go WVR then you succeed. And that is a big if. During Kargil the Indians locked onto our F-16 and we could just hold our joysticks so to speak.




no chunnda zid na ker.. will force you to eat Dhub .. its not all about BVR. 
planes will almost always have to merge. so the pilot needs to use his super vision to pick it out. 

if you ever had been in the AAK AAK firing and visited Kahuta then you would know. we have an entire contigency in place to take out the low level flying aeroplanes. 



I am talking from experience lol.. military covers all contingencies. given a highly charged thunder cloud many of your sensors will fail. cameo is purely from visual distance.. lets talk like with like here. IBM's havent phased out our fighters and bombers yet have we? apologies for the lack of term but pistols still exist despite having a "50 Cal". from both sides we cover for every eventuality...war is a very fluid concept


----------



## Basel

ali_raza said:


> i think paf should ask nawaz to convince saudis to pay for 18 optional blk52s...that will be a great deal.



If PAF had to take that route then going for just 18 F-16s will be foolish, if you want to involve and beg KSA then ask big to satisfy need and 36 Euro fighter Trench-3 will fit best as KSA operates them and they will boost area defense capability too with new advance avionics and weapons like meteor.


----------



## Informant

Irfan Baloch said:


> no chunnda zid na ker.. will force you to eat Dhub .. its not all about BVR.
> planes will almost always have to merge. so the pilot needs to use his super vision to pick it out.
> 
> if you ever had been in the AAK AAK firing and visited Kahuta then you would know. we have an entire contigency in place to take out the low level flying aeroplanes.
> 
> 
> 
> I am talking from experience lol.. military covers all contingencies. given a highly charged thunder cloud many of your sensors will fail. cameo is purely from visual distance.. lets talk like with like here. IBM's havent phased out our fighters and bombers yet have we? apologies for the lack of term but pistols still exist despite having a "50 Cal". from both sides we cover for every eventuality...war is a very fluid concept



Ok 

No thanks i am not interested in eating chipkallas

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## atlssa

Please, I do have a question. If anyone could answer, that would be great.
There are 2 signs, close to the nose. What do they mean?




Thanks in advance!


----------



## Informant

atlssa said:


> Please, I do have a question. If anyone could answer, that would be great.
> There are 2 signs, close to the nose. What do they mean?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance!



Arabic numerals for 220


----------



## Manticore

atlssa said:


> Please, I do have a question. If anyone could answer, that would be great.
> There are 2 signs, close to the nose. What do they mean?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance!


local arabic serial number 220
Royal Jordanian Air Force F-16s







---

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Arabian Legend

Is that a sign for JAF Euro Fighters Typhoon deal funded by Saudi Arabia?


----------



## Manticore

we follow different numbering style
our numbering
































]

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Gryphon

*First Five ex-Jordanian F-16s Delivered to Pakistan AF*

April 28, 2014





_Pakistan Air Force (PAF) personnel posing for an official photograph in front of the first five of 13 ex-Royal Jordanian Air Force F-16A/Bs for the PAF, which arrived yesterday at PAF Base Mushaf. PAF_

AN INITIAL batch of five ex-Royal Jordanian Air Force (RJAF) F-16s, comprising four F-16As and one F-16B, were delivered to the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) at PAF Base Mushaf-Sargodha yesterday, April 27. The head of the PAF, Air Chied Marshal Rahur Rafique Butt, who was present for the arrival ceremony, said the aircraft were in good condition. They are reported to have an average of almost 3,000 flying hours remaining on each airframe and could fly for another 20 years.

The PAF had announced in February this year that it had signed a contract for the purchase of 13 ex-RJAF F-16s, comprising 12 F-16As and a single twin-seat F-16B. All are reported to be Mid-Life Update (MLU) aircraft. The value of the deal was not revealed. They will be operated by 19 Squadron ‘Sherdils’, which was also officially re-formed at Mushaf yesterday as an F-16 unit. The Squadron had previously been an F-7P/FT-7P Operational Conversion Unit at PAF Base M M Alam, the former PAF Base Miamwali, which was renamed on March 20, 2014, as we reported at the time. The new arrivals will join Pakistan’s existing fleet of 63 F-16s, which range from older F-16A/B Block 15 aircraft through to the latest F-16C/D Block 52Ms. AFD-Dave Allport

First Five ex-Jordanian F-16s Delivered to Pakistan AF | AirForces Daily

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## atlssa

Informant said:


> Arabic numerals for 220


Thank you!!! 


Manticore said:


> local arabic serial number 220
> Royal Jordanian Air Force F-16s
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---
> our numbering



Thank you!!!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Luftwaffe

Informant said:


> I'm not asking all of them, a few would liven up the display.



You can buy from Ebay or Amazon.


----------



## Donatello

One wonders how much Pakistan paid for these and how? Media seems to be mum on this.

Secondly, if the US president did really sign the request and not congress, then it seems they know something. PAF is definitely gearing up for an assault in the North West, that's the only reason US President Obama would allow this sale, probably with Americans on ground to make sure it happens. Obama isn't exactly known for his humble side towards Pakistan.


----------



## Indus Falcon

sandy_3126 said:


> US doesn't give a damn about India's objections. It has and will keep arming Pakistan against India.


and india keeps buying US hardware.......?


----------



## rockstar08

OrionHunter said:


> Whatever one may say, the F-16 is the sexiest looking aircraft on planet Earth!



I Agree with you


----------



## Donatello

Abu Nasar said:


> and india keeps buying US hardware.......?



What hardware? C130s, C17s and P8I so far...


----------



## MilSpec

Abu Nasar said:


> and india keeps buying US hardware.......?



Not front-line high tech systems...Arms dealers have no conscience...

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## MastanKhan

krash said:


> Imagine a close in fight, radars are useless, your manoeuvres are rapid, that split second for which the enemy looses your sight is all it takes for you to secure his six. Plus radars still aren't that omnipotent. Switch off your signatures, fly low enough and you get precious minutes of being undetected.
> 
> @Windjammer can tell you the story of how two of our 16s crept behind some fulcrums(?) undetected, during Kargil. Or how our F-6s and Mirages gave a slight of hand to the US F-15s and a Carrier group a few times.



Hi,

You can do that one or two times---won't happen after that.

Now if the opponent has aesa radar---regardless of what you do----as close you may fly---it can find out what type of engine you have and and then co-relate it to the type of aircraft---thus displaying the number of aircrafts coming at you.

In low flight---the ground clutter---the heat arising out of the ground can confuse a radar or a missile.


----------



## Quwa

Surplus F-16s are cheap and had it not been for the anal-retentive attention on Pakistan among American lawmakers, the PAF would have stocked up on many F-16s by now. The US knows it needs to dangle a few carrots in front of Pakistan time to time, and it's clearly letting Pakistan buy used F-16s from third parties such a Jordan and others. It's likely that the PAF has gotten approval to raise its F-16A/B fleet to the originally planned 100 (from the late 1980s).

Secondly, don't underestimate the ability of countries to off-load their older F-16s. Governments like showing balanced fiscal stats, selling older aircraft such as F-16, C-130, AH-1 and P-3s are a sure way to get some cash flow.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Thorough Pro

Tomcats became obsolete decades ago, Hornets replaced Tomcats.



Informant said:


> A-10 after that. I for some reason never had a liking for the design of Flankers. I'm in the minority of such an opinion.
> 
> After A-10 then it's Tomcat.


----------



## Informant

Thorough Pro said:


> Tomcats became obsolete decades ago, Hornets replaced Tomcats.



Looks. I'm talking about looks.


----------



## Zarvan

@Manticore How many older F-16 have been already upgraded from Turkey and when these F-16 will be send to get upgraded in Turkey


----------



## MastanKhan

Hi,

Unlike other aircraft designs---that got old---the F16 design by fault or default has become an everlasting design---. It is an aircraft whose design is built to perfection in any time frame that we can talk about----35 years in the past or 35 years in the future. This aircraft, its design and what the aircraft can do will be tough to replace for any air force for a few more decades.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

Windjammer said:


> All these Block-15s are EDA. After signing peace treaty with Israel, Jordan got these ex-USAF EDA's in 1997/98 and a second batch of ex-Belgian F-16AM/BMs in 2008 and 2011 (again those were also MLU). *The one's we got are Block-15 EDAs and all of them were MLU'ed by TAI in 2005, bringing them on par with Block-52s, the only exception being CFTs and less powerful engine.* In fact TAI did MLU on 17 aircraft.* The A/B models which have those IFF/Bird cutters infront of canopy are all MLU'ed*...that's the sign of A/B aircraft going through MLU.



Those birds cutter "BIRD SLICERS" antennas on A/B are because of ADF version otherwise Block-15 A/B models does not support IFF antennas unless they are MLUed. 

The MLU F-16 you are talking about are still with Jordan and we are getting the old ones ADF Falcons, that haven't gone through Block-50 equivalent MLU. They might have provision to use Aim-120 but they have no A2G capabilities as compared to our Falcons.

Kindly Go through F-16.net Jordan AF records.

Regards,


----------



## Windjammer

DANGER-ZONE said:


> Those birds cutter "BIRD SLICERS" antennas on A/B are because of ADF version otherwise Block-15 A/B models does not support IFF antennas unless they are MLUed.
> 
> The MLU F-16 you are talking about are still with Jordan and we are getting the old ones ADF Falcons, that haven't gone through Block-50 equivalent MLU. They might have provision to use Aim-120 but they have no A2G capabilities as compared to our Falcons.
> 
> Kindly Go through F-16.net Jordan AF records.
> 
> Regards,


Admittedly i have little or no knowledge relating to the current status of these aircraft, however different sources using adverse terms makes it difficult to ascertain the exact nature of upgrades or standard of these machines.



> The batch of Ex Royal Jordanian F-16 AM/BM were flown by Pakistani pilots, directly from Jordan. With the addition of these new airframes (12 A models and one B model aircraft) the PAF will reach 76 F-16s in service. Lockheed Martin and the US government gave its blessing for the sale/purchase of the jets with contracts being signed back in 2013.
> 
> PAF officials declined to give any details of the amount involved in the deal but they claimed that it has been transparent and it would be made public next month just before the delivery of the remaining F-16s.
> 
> The airframes which are all in good condition as all had been updated to the Mid-Life Update (MLU) before they were purchased by the Jordanian government. Each jet is expected to provide service for another 20 years with almost 3,000 flying hours life on average available per airframe.
> 
> Reiterating their commitment to face any challenge confronting Pakistan, Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafiq Butt has said that introduction of new F-16 fighter jets in the PAF fleet would further enhance its efficiency to effectively handle the internal and external threats.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Battle Axe

Chak Bamu said:


> Nah... do not be too sad. I think that J-10 purchase news trolled Indians well enough. Besides PAF is too busy with JF-17 induction and upgraded F-16s. Induction of J-10 would complicate things for our airforce. Read Air Commodore (R) Kaiser Tufail's interview, you would find answers.




Link, for the interview?


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

@Windjammer

Some of the RJAF ADF Falcons, that we are getting were actually normal Block-15 A/B Versions that were upgraded to ADF standard before delivery to RJAF.
*I don't know why F-16.net has mentioned the acquisition of MLU versions instead of the ADF. While Falcons parked at Mushaf AB are clearly ADF Falcons. Also note that they have mention only one "B" version while there are two on the tarmac. Things are not clear to F-16.net as well, for sure.

Please see the following images to differentiate b/w these two a/c.*

*ADF FALCONS:* Notice the different style *"Bird Slicers"* in front of canopy and below chin intake. When u see these types of IFF Antennas, you should know that these are not Block-50/52 standard MLU.

RJAF F-16A ADF #221 from 2 sqn is strolling to the runway for another sortie in April of 2014.
*




*

RJAF F-16A ADF #228 from 2 sqn is seen parked on the ramp during Falcon Air Meet 2007





RJAF F-16B ADF #235 from 2 sqn is parked on the tarmac, ready for another training sortie.




*
MLU FALCONS:* Notice the small "BIRD SLICERS" in front of canopy and absence of antennas below intake.

An airman guides an RJAF F-16AM #676 during the Falcon Air Meet 2010 alert scramble competition at Azraq AB on October 20th, 2010.





RJAF F-16AM #680 from 1 sqn is spotted taxiing by the lens at Al Azraq AB on October 18th, 2009 during the Falcon Air Meet.





RJAF F-16AM #155 from 1 sqn is taxiing by the camera at Konya AFB on June 20th, 2012 during exercise Anatolian Eagle.





RJAF F-16BM #139 is taxiing by the camera at Kleine Brogel AB on September 10th, 2008 while leaving for their home country. This aircraft is ex-BAF #FB-08.





Go through this album and you will know about the different versions of RJAF Falcons.

Royal Jordanian Air Force F-16s photos | F-16.net

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## Munir

We got the worst still flying RJAF F16's. Not even the correct engine. To me this shows the situation the nation is. When we talk about the bird slicers aka IFF antenna's... This is clearly not even close to the MLU'ed decades old planes that were bought by Jordan from the Dutch and Belgians... And those planes were already not the best planes to buy. 

So the fact that two F16B b15 are parked and everyone talks about one... The bad quality that is clearly visible... It is the question how blind we are.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## VelocuR

@DANGER-ZONE explained perfectly. 

The overall point is I believe PAF bought old RJAF F-16's to please our Arab friends than care about our quality or even ask questions. 

PAF made huge mistake to drop its decisions on few J-10B for this RJAF F-16s garbage bags?


----------



## Windjammer

Doesn't the fact that these aircraft flew non stop for over 2000 miles without a glitch proves their air worthiness.
Besides until the JFT becomes available in numbers, it's an ideal stop gap measure plus adds further advantage with the BVR capability.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## fatman17

guys.....picky....picky...picky. one should appreciate the fact that these 13 a/c are now PAF property. they are for sure AM/BM so the MLU has been performed. yes i agree with munir that the engines need to be replaced to the 220 type (for which engine bays already modified) to conform to PAF standards for which PAF will request EDA engines.
what we need to understand that just like the manoverings PAF did to acquire MiragesIII/V from all over the world, the same experience is being successfully applied here. give credit where its due.

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## Munir

We indeed got F16 for the price of a K8... We got 13 F16's for the price of 3 new JF17's. And PAF is able to improve the quality within 6-12 months and if upgraded we got latest MLU for the price of JF17. Not bad.

There is maybe a good news... Russia opens up military sales to Pak. That means a lot. More then getting anything else at the moment. shhhht.

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## Informant

Good deal but these babies need some serious upgrades.


----------



## Manticore

Maintainers from Turkey, Jordan and the US pose in front of RJAF F-16A ADF #223 from 2 sqn on October 22nd, 2008 with Mwaffaq Salti AB Commander, Col.Yousef Al-Hnaity, after breakfast in a RJAF hangar during Falcon Air Meet 2008. F-16 units from Turkey, Jordan and the 421st FS from Hill AFB are competing in the areas of maintenance and flying operations. [USAF photo by TSgt. Wolfram M. Stumpf]

223.jpg photos | F-16.net

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## think@best

with reference to subject matter, it is very good idea of PAF to increase their fleet by adding old aircraft with available infrastructure.

1. Yes we know these jets can be up grated.
2. Our economy is rising but in steady speed, so old is gold for PAF.
3. JF 17 is not a mature plate form and production is not fixed. We are just assuming everything about thunder.
4. If old F16 ( Block-15) Price is equal to JF17 Block - 1 we should go for F-16 Used to replace half of F-7.




Munir said:


> We indeed got F16 for the price of a K8... We got 13 F16's for the price of 3 new JF17's. And PAF is able to improve the quality within 6-12 months and if upgraded we got latest MLU for the price of JF17. Not bad.
> 
> There is maybe a good news... Russia opens up military sales to Pak. That means a lot. More then getting anything else at the moment. shhhht.



@Munir @Aeronaut @Oscar what do you think pakistan should brought old F16 more and more or invest in JF17 programme as we know, 4th Generation Fighter will be obsolete by the end of this decade. And does we have any plan for Stealth or 4.5 Gen aircraft. Or if not what is the possibility ( which aircraft ) of 4.5 Gen will be inducted in pakistan


----------



## Stealth

IMO Pakistan Airforce think are the most ******** in the history of any country.... Look @ Pakistan's Airforce decision makers from past 60 years... just only 40 F16s of such state who are IN THE STATE OF WAR ... who has most Strategic important location in this whole world... whom have 2 super Powers along with 1 soft power side by side.. Look @ the decision of buying Aircrafts from past 20 years. Look @ the decision making of buying Aircraft from last 10 years... you will be SURPRISE!!... for understanding the situation and correct decision of What you need actually.... you don't need MONEY... you need BRAIN! which unfortunately Pakistan Airforce think Tanks lacking since the birth of PAKISTAN!


----------



## Donatello

Munir said:


> We indeed got F16 for the price of a K8... We got 13 F16's for the price of 3 new JF17's. And PAF is able to improve the quality within 6-12 months and if upgraded we got latest MLU for the price of JF17. Not bad.
> 
> There is maybe a good news... Russia opens up military sales to Pak. That means a lot. More then getting anything else at the moment. shhhht.



Why so depressed? I know it is hard times, but we need to get the house in order first. Without a sound economy we can't buy anything. And for a sound economy we need to fix the law and order situation.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Indus Falcon

Donatello said:


> Why so depressed? I know it is hard times, but we need to get the house in order first. Without a sound economy we can't buy anything. And for a sound economy we need to fix the law and order situation.


Well said!! Law and Order should be top priority.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Battle Axe

think@best said:


> with reference to subject matter, it is very good idea of PAF to increase their fleet by adding old aircraft with available infrastructure.
> 
> 1. Yes we know these jets can be up grated.
> 2. Our economy is rising but in steady speed, so old is gold for PAF.
> 3. JF 17 is not a mature plate form and production is not fixed. We are just assuming everything about thunder.
> 4. If old F16 ( Block-15) Price is equal to JF17 Block - 1 we should go for F-16 Used to replace half of F-7.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Munir @Aeronaut @Oscar what do you think pakistan should brought old F16 more and more or invest in JF17 programme as we know, 4th Generation Fighter will be obsolete by the end of this decade. And does we have any plan for Stealth or 4.5 Gen aircraft. Or if not what is the possibility ( which aircraft ) of 4.5 Gen will be inducted in pakistan




Sure, the number of F-16s should go past 100. They are proven fighters rather than JFTs. The best thing would be to replace the F-7 & Mirage with old F-16s and go slow on production of JFTs with more R&D for block Ii and then III. And all old models should be upgraded to Block 50 MLU: things will start looking much brighter: pity that even buying used birds needs US approvals and they come rare & slow.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Battle Axe

Stealth said:


> IMO Pakistan Airforce think are the most ******** in the history of any country.... Look @ Pakistan's Airforce decision makers from past 60 years... just only 40 F16s of such state who are IN THE STATE OF WAR ... who has most Strategic important location in this whole world... whom have 2 super Powers along with 1 soft power side by side.. Look @ the decision of buying Aircrafts from past 20 years. Look @ the decision making of buying Aircraft from last 10 years... you will be SURPRISE!!... for understanding the situation and correct decision of What you need actually.... you don't need MONEY... you need BRAIN! which unfortunately Pakistan Airforce think Tanks lacking since the birth of PAKISTAN!




Cool it man, PAF has been doing the best job under the given circumstances. No one was prepared to sell us pretty much a few years ago and even today, except China.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Donatello

Abu Nasar said:


> Well said!! Law and Order should be top priority.



Which brings me back to the initial statement i made some time ago, use these F-16s to bomb the militants. Finish off their sanctuaries, destroy their sources of funding. Once they see their leadership is taken out by F-16s/JF-17s they will automatically be forced into submission.

It is a great time to test the effectiveness of those JDAMs and MK84 that Pakistan bought.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## araz

Munir said:


> We got the worst still flying RJAF F16's. Not even the correct engine. To me this shows the situation the nation is. When we talk about the bird slicers aka IFF antenna's... This is clearly not even close to the MLU'ed decades old planes that were bought by Jordan from the Dutch and Belgians... And those planes were already not the best planes to buy.
> 
> So the fact that two F16B b15 are parked and everyone talks about one... The bad quality that is clearly visible... It is the question how blind we are.


 Munir
You may be right but please consider the following. At the moment it is the most expedient way of augmenting a fast obsolete fleet of PAF. Even JFT infrastructure is so rudimentary that toher than 2 sites we cannot maintain a fleet of JFTs. Even if they have not been MLUed , they will serve till such time that the rest of the MLU fleet returns from Turkey. Any changes that need to be made subsequently can be done locally or with TAI as we seem to have had approval for the kits for MLU. It is not perfect but we cannot be choosers. Even if you ask the US for MLUs to come over you know as well as I do that it iwll take a yr or even longer before MLU is done. Plus do you really want the MLU to be done in US. So all in all we have made the best possible decision under the worst possible circumstances.
J10 will not be available till 2015-17 due to maturity of the platform and more importantly maturity of WS10. PAF will not buy J10with AL31 due to the unreliability of the supply chain.. We are not buying old RD33s from Ukraine without any reason and you know what the reasons are.
regards
Araz



Donatello said:


> Which brings me back to the initial statement i made some time ago, use these F-16s to bomb the militants. Finish off their sanctuaries, destroy their sources of funding. Once they see their leadership is taken out by F-16s/JF-17s they will automatically be forced into submission.
> 
> It is a great time to test the effectiveness of those JDAMs and MK84 that Pakistan bought.


 !0 yrs and you have still not understood. Why do you think PA has resisted the idea of going after them. My brother it is a zero sum game. The nasties are hidden amongst you and you cant cut this cancer out without significant bloodshed which will alienate the majority of the nation. You would be pissed off too if there was collateral damage in ana area where you lived and some of your loved ones dies in it. Violence begets violence and the only way of resolving this issue is through a combination of dialogue and surgical strikes if needed. full scale bombing will cause too much chaos and get little in respoinse. One of the problems is that you dont have enough of a mandate on your side. If the banner of Islam is lifted inspite of the reasons being wrong how amny of our populace is likely to follow you. The solution is political and not through war. However selective surgical strikes as have been carried out are very much on the cards
My 2 paisas worth/.
Araz


----------



## Secur

@araz Why do you think that not much of a mandate is on our side ? Has the populace been much seduced by the opiate of the masses ? Do the extremists offer more than we do and something far more lucrative ?


----------



## ziaulislam

Secur said:


> @araz Why do you think that not much of a mandate is on our side ? Has the populace been much seduced by the opiate of the masses ? Do the extremists offer more than we do and something far more lucrative ?



mandate is not on our side. unless 99% population is on your side you cant win without collateral dmage to state intersts ..
look at JUI and PTI they present a population and they are against army operation against taliban.
*especially the JUI even thinks that its army who is at fault and TTP are good angels who can easily be brought into peace*

lastly, f-16 ADF can fire AIM 120 and it has sufficient shelf life left. this does make it a potent fighter.

*real question i would ask is what was the price we paid for them? there isnt any value in media and speculation are just speculation*


----------



## Najam Khan

Munir said:


> *We got the worst still flying RJAF F16's. Not even the correct engine. To me this shows the situation the nation is. When we talk about the bird slicers aka IFF antenna's... This is clearly not even close to the MLU'ed decades old planes that were bought by Jordan from the Dutch and Belgians... And those planes were already not the best planes to buy. *
> 
> So the fact that two F16B b15 are parked and everyone talks about one... The bad quality that is clearly visible... It is the question how blind we are.


Sir, I respectfully disagree. This is a worthy deal, procurement of non-MLU air frames was already decided. Further, we can go to TAI anytime (with US consent off-course) for MLU; going at current stage when these aircraft have 5-7 air worthy years (ref. to current F-16 flying rate) of service remaining might not be a good decision. Our requirement are way different then Jordanians/Belgians/Chile Air Forces procurement they have different needs and different threats..its like comparing apples to oranges.

Also, whatever MLU brings is not needed right now; 3 F-16 units already are tasked in those role.
I believe engine shall be upgraded locally, with structural reinforcements (if required), HUD box can be replaced locally...so I don't think its an issue. This was simply not an MLU a/c procurement.

Cheers.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Munir

I mentioned the price... Nor directly but you can calculate it...


----------



## Armstrong

Najam Khan said:


> Sir, I respectfully disagree. This is a worthy deal, procurement of non-MLU air frames was already decided. Further, we can go to TAI anytime (with US consent off-course) for MLU; going at current stage when these aircraft have 5-7 air worthy years (ref. to current F-16 flying rate) of service remaining might not be a good decision. Our requirement are way different then Jordanians/Belgians/Chile Air Forces procurement they have different needs and different threats..its like comparing apples to oranges.
> 
> Also, whatever MLU brings is not needed right now; 3 F-16 units already are tasked in those role.
> I believe engine shall be upgraded locally, with structural reinforcements (if required), HUD box can be replaced locally...so I don't think its an issue. This was simply not an MLU a/c procurement.
> 
> Cheers.


 
Khan Sahib - How are you doing ?  

Long time no see !  

Waisee, if this really is the PAF going ala-Mirages on the F-16s whereby we procure them from wherever we can (subject to US Approval) and do what we did to the Mirages (in terms of squeezing considerable efficiency and effectiveness out of them through air-frame upgrades and the addition of better avionics), why the heck did we not do this in the early '00s when we both had the cash and were in the good-books of the Americans to be able to procure more of these and have them MLUed in time ? 

Sometimes I wonder which truly was the Lost Decade for the PAF - the '90s when we were embargoed or the '00s when we appeared to be sloppy and casual in terms of exploiting the opportunities that came our way !


----------



## VelocuR

Donatello said:


> Why so depressed? I know it is hard times,* but we need to get the house in order first. Without a sound economy we can't buy anything. And for a sound economy we need to fix the law and order situation.*





Abu Nasar said:


> Well said!! *Law and Order should be top priority.*



It is *NOT* possible that our house would be in order and will fix *anytime soon*, my predict is our nation takes time to learn in approximately *100 or 120 years from now (65 years old)* due to massive problems, unstable situations, and unsolved long issues in our house, just our bad luck being Pakistani ourselves.


----------



## krash

Armstrong said:


> Khan Sahib - How are you doing ?
> 
> Long time no see !
> 
> Waisee, if this really is the PAF going ala-Mirages on the F-16s whereby we procure them from wherever we can (subject to US Approval) and do what we did to the Mirages (in terms of squeezing considerable efficiency and effectiveness out of them through air-frame upgrades and the addition of better avionics), why the heck did we not do this in the early '00s when we both had the cash and were in the good-books of the Americans to be able to procure more of these and have them MLUed in time ?
> 
> Sometimes I wonder which truly was the Lost Decade for the PAF - the '90s when we were embargoed or the '00s when we appeared to be sloppy and casual in terms of exploiting the opportunities that came our way !



Since we had the money and the favour we were going for brand spanking new Block 52+s. We all know what happened then; the number cuts, J-10s, etc.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Armstrong

krash said:


> Since we had the money and the favour we were going for brand spanking new Block 52+s. We all know what happened then; the number cuts, J-10s, etc.


 
But shouldn't an organization as sanctioned as the PAF be the best person to appreciate the possibility of acquiring as many F-16s as we could and having them MLUed in addition to going for the Block 52s as a matter of prudence as and when the first window of opportunity opened up ?


----------



## araz

Secur said:


> @araz Why do you think that not much of a mandate is on our side ? Has the populace been much seduced by the opiate of the masses ? Do the extremists offer more than we do and something far more lucrative ?


Ìts not what they Offer but what the government of Pakistan does not offer that is worthy of discussion. The term lucrative can have different values to different people.
Araz


----------



## VCheng

Secur said:


> @araz Why do you think that not much of a mandate is on our side ? Has the populace been much seduced by the opiate of the masses ? Do the extremists offer more than we do and something far more lucrative ?



These are pertinent questions. At what point does the extremist viewpoint become the overwhelming majority, leading to the last remaining step, which is gaining political power, and what would be the consequences?


----------



## Donatello

Armstrong said:


> Khan Sahib - How are you doing ?
> 
> Long time no see !
> 
> Waisee, if this really is the PAF going ala-Mirages on the F-16s whereby we procure them from wherever we can (subject to US Approval) and do what we did to the Mirages (in terms of squeezing considerable efficiency and effectiveness out of them through air-frame upgrades and the addition of better avionics), why the heck did we not do this in the early '00s when we both had the cash and were in the good-books of the Americans to be able to procure more of these and have them MLUed in time ?
> 
> Sometimes I wonder which truly was the Lost Decade for the PAF - the '90s when we were embargoed or the '00s when we appeared to be sloppy and casual in terms of exploiting the opportunities that came our way !



The reason was Musharraf. Or the politics that came with him. Apparently Mushaf Ali Mir Sahib was was at odds with Musharraf on a number of PAF procurement plans and Musharraf didn't like him. Can't say much, maybe others can add.

There are conspiracy theories a plenty.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Well the deal can only be made sweeter if we also get Norwegian F16 fleet into our Airforce another 40 won't look shabby


----------



## Luftwaffe

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Well the deal can only be made sweeter if we also get Norwegian F16 fleet into our Airforce another 40 won't look shabby



If they were willing to sell you would have received it a decade ago.

Our next best bet is only a F-35s start to enter Turkish Air Force we might ask for some provided US allows it...but it is a long shot and a long way next 5 years.


----------



## Thorough Pro

The problem is that every Tom, Dick, and Harry thinks they know everything sitting behind their computer screen while the actual people who are responsible to guard our air space are idiots and didn't know what they were buying. It's the same AF that bought all the "Garbage" Mirages from across the world and is still flying them despite the fact that the original manufacturer country retired them decades ago.



Windjammer said:


> Doesn't the fact that these aircraft flew non stop for over 2000 miles without a glitch proves their air worthiness.
> Besides until the JFT becomes available in numbers, it's an ideal stop gap measure plus adds further advantage with the BVR capability.



I thought you were a sensible person, anyways, for the highlighted part unfortunately buying decisions are dictated by "Buying" power, not "Brain" power. There is a Punjabi saying that goes like, "Aqal bi unno ee andi aye, jidday kol paisa howay". 



Stealth said:


> IMO Pakistan Airforce think are the most ******** in the history of any country.... Look @ Pakistan's Airforce decision makers from past 60 years... just only 40 F16s of such state who are IN THE STATE OF WAR ... who has most Strategic important location in this whole world... whom have 2 super Powers along with 1 soft power side by side.. Look @ the decision of buying Aircrafts from past 20 years. Look @ the decision making of buying Aircraft from last 10 years... you will be SURPRISE!!... for understanding the situation and correct decision of What you need actually.... you don't need MONEY...* you need BRAIN*! which unfortunately Pakistan Airforce think Tanks lacking since the birth of PAKISTAN!

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## MastanKhan

Secur said:


> @araz Why do you think that not much of a mandate is on our side ? Has the populace been much seduced by the opiate of the masses ? Do the extremists offer more than we do and something far more lucrative ?



Hi,

The populace---is as always stupid---either in pakistan or in the US of A---. You have to feed them the right kind of news and information so that they can react the way you want them to. Feed them meat and they will be 'constipated'---feed them fiber and it will come out nice and smooth.

When the media is against the state---you got big big problems. Also---pakistanis have a lack of IDENTITY---they are in search of false prophets in every nook and corner---.

Reactions: Positive Rating Positive Rating:
1 | Like Like:
5


----------



## Munir

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> When the media is against the state---you got big big problems. Also---pakistanis have a lack of IDENTITY---they are in search of false prophets in every nook and corner---.



perfectly said


----------



## Stealth

Thorough Pro said:


> The problem is that every Tom, Dick, and Harry thinks they know everything sitting behind their computer screen while the actual people who are responsible to guard our air space are idiots and didn't know what they were buying. It's the same AF that bought all the "Garbage" Mirages from across the world and is still flying them despite the fact that the original manufacturer country retired them decades ago.
> 
> 
> 
> I thought you were a sensible person, anyways, for the highlighted part unfortunately buying decisions are dictated by "Buying" power, not "Brain" power. There is a Punjabi saying that goes like, "Aqal bi unno ee andi aye, jidday kol paisa howay".



Paisay naal akal nahe aaindi lol look @ our hamsayaa... IMO paisa ajaye tu demaag karab hota hey... have you seen paaendu dagaaz having toyota cars with Mercedes logo ?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Gryphon

*Jordan exports surplus F-16s to Pakistan*

April 29, 2014

Special to WorldTribune.com






_Pakistani F-16. /TuAF_

LONDON — Jordan has delivered U.S.-origin fighter-jets to Pakistan.

Pakistan has received the first of 13 F-16A/B multi-role fighters from Jordan.

Pakistani sources said five aircraft arrived and were deployed by the Pakistan Air Force on April 27.

“This new fighter would increase the capacity of the Air Force,” Pakistan Air Force commander Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt said.

This marked the first delivery of F-16s by Jordan. Over the last 15 years, Jordan has developed an F-16 fleet of more than 60 aircraft, all of them surplus from NATO air forces.

Diplomatic sources said the United States, blocked by Congress, has urged other F-16 operators to export the aircraft to Pakistan. They said potential suppliers included Egypt, Jordan and Turkey.

In his address, Butt said Pakistan was forced to purchase surplus F-16s because of budget difficulties. He said the fighters, housed at the Air Force base in Sargodha, were in good condition.

Jordan exports surplus F-16s to Pakistan - World Tribune | World Tribune

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Manticore



Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## Munir

Those that think we have bought top notch planes

These received planes are indeed MLU ADF variants...










And those that talk about AMRAAM:



These were production Block 15 aircraft that were modified for the air defense interceptor role. The modifications included IFF ‘bird cutter’ antennas ahead of the windscreen and under the intake ahead of the nosegear, a redesigned vertical stabilizer base with bulges on the sides to accommodate relocated hydraulics, a modified radar to give the F-16 its first radar-guided missile capability– the AIM-7F Sparrow, and a spotlight built into the left side of the aircraft’s nose for night intercepts. An F-16B ADF was also developed, but its external appearance was identical to standard F-16Bs.

And this picture explains something about the status...

231.jpg

They need to open the canopy manual. Either the battery power is gone or the canopy system is not working properly...

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## SQ8

Munir said:


> Those that think we have bought top notch planes
> 
> These received planes are indeed MLU ADF variants...
> 
> And those that talk about AMRAAM:
> 
> 
> 
> These were production Block 15 aircraft that were modified for the air defense interceptor role. The modifications included IFF ‘bird cutter’ antennas ahead of the windscreen and under the intake ahead of the nosegear, a redesigned vertical stabilizer base with bulges on the sides to accommodate relocated hydraulics, a modified radar to give the F-16 its first radar-guided missile capability– the AIM-7F Sparrow, and a spotlight built into the left side of the aircraft’s nose for night intercepts. An F-16B ADF was also developed, but its external appearance was identical to standard F-16Bs.



On the subject of AMRAAM.. the aircraft are known as the F-16 ADF-OCU(not MLU..although essentially the OCU was a mid life update). The radar modification is NOT specific to the AIM-7 but rather provides look down shoot down capability. The ability to guide BVR system comes from Continuous wave illumination from the radar that works for both the AIM-7 and the AIM-120.

But yes, there are hardly top notch. And rather just stop gap air defence variants that are essentially only slightly better when compared to our _original_ F-16 purchase in terms of A2A capability only.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Munir

OCU means Operating Capability Upgrades.


----------



## Windjammer

@Munir, sir, so what's the conclusion after you have pointed out all the features on the F-16s obtained from Jordan.....to me it sounds as a good induction with many extra features. ??


----------



## Munir

Windjammer saheb, I think for 5 mil USD a plane it is amazing. 3000 hours to go. A few extra spares to do only ADF when the rest can sit safely in the hangars.We know block 15 inside out. We can improve the planes. Surely a good deal. The capabilities are not impressive at the moment when you compare to anything on the India side. I do not think these planes make a chance.

If they get a new radar, new weapon capabilities, new cockpit and new PW 220E then I think we can see it as a real asset. Till then nice spares. Looking at the status these planes will need a lot of TLC from the Pakistani engineers. I mean every purza needs to be checked and surely a lot of parts need to be replaced. Someone said that flying to Pakistan was a big achievement. I fully agree. I would not risk pilots doing that. We do have talented pilots but you do remember that USAF pilots refused to fly planes from Portugese island to the USA cause it had expired main igniter? These planes have expired everything. Only the pilot is fine...

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## Windjammer

Apparently the pilots who brought in two more yesterday seemed very convinced with these aircraft.
The sand air has taken it's toll on the appearance , a visit to the paint shop and they would look as good as anything else out there.

As the 4th squadron will stand up by end of May, i doubt they will spend too much time in the hangars.....your thoughts please.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Armstrong

@Oscar @Munir - Gentleman, I've heard quite a lot about the work-ethics and resourcefulness of the PAF in squeezing anything from better-than-expected (as in the case of the F-6s) to something exemplary (as in the case of the Mirages) out of seemingly unfavorable odds; keeping that in mind, how much do you think can we realistically hope to better these bargain-purchased F-16s without infringing upon any copyright issues ?


----------



## Munir

There is no issue with copyright issues. We can not afford decent second hand F16's. AMARG is filled with maybe thousands of F16's... Many nations would love to sell theirs MLU 5 F16's... We rather buy something that nobody wants for cheaper then scrap price and then turn them into operational planes thanks to cheap labor. The parts are just bought on the commercial market. E.q. Belgium has huge number of parts for sale... (smile). The only wrong part of the presentation is that right ow these planes are super duper... That is clearly not the reality.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## RAMPAGE

Munir said:


> Windjammer saheb, I think for 5 mil USD a plane it is amazing. 3000 hours to go. A few extra spares to do only ADF when the rest can sit safely in the hangars.We know block 15 inside out. We can improve the planes. Surely a good deal. The capabilities are not impressive at the moment when you compare to anything on the India side. I do not think these planes make a chance.
> 
> If they get a new radar, new weapon capabilities, new cockpit and new PW 220E then I think we can see it as a real asset. Till then nice spares. Looking at the status these planes will need a lot of TLC from the Pakistani engineers. I mean every purza needs to be checked and surely a lot of parts need to be replaced. Someone said that flying to Pakistan was a big achievement. I fully agree. I would not risk pilots doing that. We do have talented pilots but you do remember that USAF pilots refused to fly planes from Portugese island to the USA cause it had expired main igniter? These planes have expired everything. Only the pilot is fine...


3000 hrs on the airfame and you're talking of them as spares ???

I think that they'll be undergoing MLU pretty soon.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Munir

RAMPAGE said:


> 3000 hrs on the airfame and you're talking of them as spares ???
> 
> I think that they'll be undergoing MLU pretty soon.



Would you risk sending an almost falling apart ADF while you could send Jf17 with BVR?

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## RAMPAGE

Munir said:


> Would you risk sending an almost falling apart ADF while you could send Jf17 with BVR?


surely not but i'm against using them as spare parts.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## elitepilot09

Munir said:


> Windjammer saheb, I think for 5 mil USD a plane it is amazing. 3000 hours to go. A few extra spares to do only ADF when the rest can sit safely in the hangars.We know block 15 inside out. We can improve the planes. Surely a good deal. The capabilities are not impressive at the moment when you compare to anything on the India side. I do not think these planes make a chance.
> 
> If they get a new radar, new weapon capabilities, new cockpit and new PW 220E then I think we can see it as a real asset. Till then nice spares. Looking at the status these planes will need a lot of TLC from the Pakistani engineers. I mean every purza needs to be checked and surely a lot of parts need to be replaced. Someone said that flying to Pakistan was a big achievement. I fully agree. I would not risk pilots doing that. We do have talented pilots but you do remember that USAF pilots refused to fly planes from Portugese island to the USA cause it had expired main igniter? These planes have expired everything. Only the pilot is fine...



I believe that you, as well as a few others here, are candy-coating the fully capabilities and performance of these fighters. As Pakistanis, anything F-16 will make us happy but I believe we were better off without these planes as they will turn into nightmares in 5-6 years. Before you shoot me down, please allow me to explain. 

1. For Gods sake, the planes have been so belittled that apparently, flying (you know, that thing that planes are meant to do) from one country to another is seen as a major achievement of some sort. If it is indeed true that the planes have only 3,000 hours left on them, they will be expended in 5-6 years time and we'll see a maintenance nightmare.

2. You say that this procurement is "surely a good deal", but in the very next paragraph you insist that IF the plane gets a new radar, new weapons capabilities, a new cockpit and a new engine, then it's an asset... So you're practically looking for a "new" plane of some sort? The only logical overhaul which can provide all that is an MLU, and I don't think these will be MLU'ed anytime soon since we're still in the process of upgrading our current fleet.

3. And yes, just so it's clear, these planes have not gone through the MLU. 

4. The very thing that this plane is meant for - "*A*ir *D*efence *F*ighter" - it cannot do better than our current fleet because the ADFs are equipped with the APG-66 (as opposed to the APG-68 of the F-16AM/BM or the APG-68v9 of the Blk 52). The APG-66 has a SUBSTANITALLY lesser range than the other 2 radars mentioned, it is more susceptible to the new forms of complex EW that our enemies employ and can be jammed realitively easier. 

5. Sure, it can be equipped with AIM-120, but it cannot make better use of that missile since it can only see hardly 80 km infront of it. The F-16AM/BM and it's APG 68 radar can scan for nearly 130 km. On that note, the AIM-120 C-5 which Pakistan possesses has a range of 105 km... meaning that these ADF F-16's cannot take full advantage of that missile range *and *our pilots have to further risk their lives to move closer to the enemy in a BVR scenario in order to launch the missile. I understand that some BVR capability is better than nothing... but that sort of mentality is not gonna get us anywhere when our adversary has 200+ SU-30's literally 'mini-awacs' radars.







6. Atleast 3 Jordanian F-16's have crashed in the last 2 years if I'm not mistaken. And one of those was in in January of this year.

I would love to believe that this was a great aquisition for us, but until these planes go through MLU, they will trouble us.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Munir

elitepilot09 said:


> I believe that you, as well as a few others here, are candy-coating the fully capabilities and performance of these fighters. As Pakistanis, anything F-16 will make us happy but I believe we were better off without these planes as they will turn into nightmares in 5-6 years. Before you shoot me down, please allow me to explain.
> 
> 1. For Gods sake, the planes have been so belittled that apparently, flying (you know, that thing that planes are meant to do) from one country to another is seen as a major achievement of some sort. If it is indeed true that the planes have only 3,000 hours left on them, they will be expended in 5-6 years time and we'll see a maintenance nightmare.
> 
> 2. You say that this procurement is "surely a good deal", but in the very next paragraph you insist that IF the plane gets a new radar, new weapons capabilities, a new cockpit and a new engine, then it's an asset... So you're practically looking for a "new" plane of some sort? The only logical overhaul which can provide all that is an MLU, and I don't think these will be MLU'ed anytime soon since we're still in the process of upgrading our current fleet.
> 
> 3. And yes, just so it's clear, these planes have not gone through the MLU.
> 
> 4. The very thing that this plane is meant for - "*A*ir *D*efence *F*ighter" - it cannot do better than our current fleet because the ADFs are equipped with the APG-66 (as opposed to the APG-68 of the F-16AM/BM or the APG-68v9 of the Blk 52). The APG-66 has a SUBSTANITALLY lesser range than the other 2 radars mentioned, it is more susceptible to the new forms of complex EW that our enemies employ and can be jammed realitively easier.
> 
> 5. Sure, it can be equipped with AIM-120, but it cannot make better use of that missile since it can only see hardly 80 km infront of it. The F-16AM/BM and it's APG 68 radar can scan for nearly 130 km. On that note, the AIM-120 C-5 which Pakistan possesses has a range of 105 km... meaning that these ADF F-16's cannot take full advantage of that missile range *and *our pilots have to further risk their lives to move closer to the enemy in a BVR scenario in order to launch the missile. I understand that some BVR capability is better than nothing... but that sort of mentality is not gonna get us anywhere when our adversary has 200+ SU-30's literally 'mini-awacs' radars.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 6. Atleast 3 Jordanian F-16's have crashed in the last 2 years if I'm not mistaken. And one of those was in in January of this year.
> 
> I would love to believe that this was a great aquisition for us, but until these planes go through MLU, they will trouble us.




-If you have links then you use each others radar...
-Links with Erieye/ground radar
-BVR are seldom used at max range... 2/3...
-modern ecm with DRFM can do the same to any modern radar... Even AESA. BVR is not 100% perfect!

etc. Hope that answers a part of your questions

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

elitepilot09 said:


> I believe that you, as well as a few others here, are candy-coating the fully capabilities and performance of these fighters. As Pakistanis, anything F-16 will make us happy but I believe we were better off without these planes as they will turn into nightmares in 5-6 years. Before you shoot me down, please allow me to explain.
> 
> 1. For Gods sake, the planes have been so belittled that apparently, flying (you know, that thing that planes are meant to do) from one country to another is seen as a major achievement of some sort. If it is indeed true that the planes have only 3,000 hours left on them, they will be expended in 5-6 years time and we'll see a maintenance nightmare.
> 
> 2. You say that this procurement is "surely a good deal", but in the very next paragraph you insist that IF the plane gets a new radar, new weapons capabilities, a new cockpit and a new engine, then it's an asset... So you're practically looking for a "new" plane of some sort? The only logical overhaul which can provide all that is an MLU, and I don't think these will be MLU'ed anytime soon since we're still in the process of upgrading our current fleet.
> 
> 3. And yes, just so it's clear, these planes have not gone through the MLU.
> 
> 4. The very thing that this plane is meant for - "*A*ir *D*efence *F*ighter" - it cannot do better than our current fleet because the ADFs are equipped with the APG-66 (as opposed to the APG-68 of the F-16AM/BM or the APG-68v9 of the Blk 52). The APG-66 has a SUBSTANITALLY lesser range than the other 2 radars mentioned, it is more susceptible to the new forms of complex EW that our enemies employ and can be jammed realitively easier.
> 
> 5. Sure, it can be equipped with AIM-120, but it cannot make better use of that missile since it can only see hardly 80 km infront of it. The F-16AM/BM and it's APG 68 radar can scan for nearly 130 km. On that note, the AIM-120 C-5 which Pakistan possesses has a range of 105 km... meaning that these ADF F-16's cannot take full advantage of that missile range *and *our pilots have to further risk their lives to move closer to the enemy in a BVR scenario in order to launch the missile. I understand that some BVR capability is better than nothing... but that sort of mentality is not gonna get us anywhere when our adversary has 200+ SU-30's literally 'mini-awacs' radars.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 6. Atleast 3 Jordanian F-16's have crashed in the last 2 years if I'm not mistaken. And one of those was in in January of this year.
> 
> I would love to believe that this was a great aquisition for us, but until these planes go through MLU, they will trouble us.



You do not belong here dude ..... or start lying

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## SQ8

Armstrong said:


> ot about the work-ethics and resourcefulness of the PAF in squeezing anything from better-than-expected (as in the case of the F-6s) to something exemplary (as in the case of the Mirages) out of seemingly unfavorable odds; keeping that in mind, how much do you think can we realistically hope to better these bargain-purchased F-16s without infringing upon any copyright issues ?



Depends on the life left in these airframe. They have already had their service life extended one so more of that may be quite difficult. Adding a MLU may be possible but that then depends on whether it will be cost effective vis-a-vis the remaining life of these airframe. 

They are good for Air Defence duties and will do fine there.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## VelocuR

I don't know for sure, but I think Saudi involved to pay few million dollars for these aging F-16A/B since Jordan/Saudi are closer relationship. That's why PAF officers look so happy and exciting!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Informant

Munir said:


> Would you risk sending an almost falling apart ADF while you could send Jf17 with BVR?



Direct 2000 miles plus distance isnt travelled by almost falling apart planes. Who made you a think tank?


----------



## kaykay

Informant said:


> Direct 2000 miles plus distance isnt travelled by almost falling apart planes. Who made you a think tank?


Sorry but even oldies like Indian Jaguars have travelled almost 2000+ km distance all the way from Gorakhpur, UP to Oman for exercises in past. Distance is no issue here.


----------



## Informant

kaykay said:


> Sorry but even oldies like Indian Jaguars have travelled almost 2000+ km distance all the way from Gorakhpur, UP to Oman for exercises in past. Distance is no issue here.



Sure keep believing that, all the planes will go through the process of MLU. This takes time and it will be done.


----------



## kaykay

Informant said:


> Sure keep believing that, all the planes will go through the process of MLU. This takes time and it will be done.


Believing what? I am simply saying that travelling lost distances are no issue for even oldies like Jaguars let alone F-16s.


----------



## Windjammer

kaykay said:


> Sorry but even oldies like Indian Jaguars have travelled almost 2000+ km distance all the way from Gorakhpur, UP to Oman for exercises in past. Distance is no issue here.



Two things, firstly it's over 2000 miles not km, secondly the safety of twin engine is always a factor.


Informant said:


> Direct 2000 miles plus distance isnt travelled by almost falling apart planes. Who made you a think tank?



I would request you not to question his credibility, @Munir is a highly respected member and a professional for that matter.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## truthseeker2010

Munir said:


> Windjammer saheb, I think for 5 mil USD a plane it is amazing. 3000 hours to go. A few extra spares to do only ADF when the rest can sit safely in the hangars.We know block 15 inside out. We can improve the planes. Surely a good deal. The capabilities are not impressive at the moment when you compare to anything on the India side. I do not think these planes make a chance.
> 
> If they get a new radar, new weapon capabilities, new cockpit and new PW 220E then I think we can see it as a real asset. Till then nice spares. Looking at the status these planes will need a lot of TLC from the Pakistani engineers. I mean every purza needs to be checked and surely a lot of parts need to be replaced. Someone said that flying to Pakistan was a big achievement. I fully agree. I would not risk pilots doing that. We do have talented pilots but you do remember that USAF pilots refused to fly planes from Portugese island to the USA cause it had expired main igniter? These planes have expired everything. Only the pilot is fine...



sir u sure about 5 mil a plane that is 65 for all 13. That's damm TOO LOW! i would say scrap jf-17 and buy used F-16 in large no's and replace all mirages and f-7.....about 100-150 more..... u will get urself an airforce second to none in less than a billion bucks....


----------



## kaykay

Windjammer said:


> Two things, firstly it's over 2000 miles not km, secondly the safety of twin engine is always a factor.
> 
> 
> I would request you not to question his credibility, @Munir is a highly respected member and a professional for that matter.


My mistake. Though Gorakhpur to Oman is some 2500+ km(1500+ miles?) anyway Its offtopic so better we leave it here. Carry on.


----------



## Informant

Windjammer said:


> Two things, firstly it's over 2000 miles not km, secondly the safety of twin engine is always a factor.
> 
> 
> I would request you not to question his credibility, @Munir is a highly respected member and a professional for that matter.



Then he should be less of a cynic and more of an idealist. $5mil is nothing for a plane of F-16's caliber.


----------



## Windjammer

Here's a better quality video of the ceremony, according to ACM, these aircraft are in *excellent* condition and apart from securing the defence of the country they will be valuable for* training* as well.


----------



## Tacticool

How many flying hours are left on pakistani AM/BM s. which are being upgraded in turkey. will the jordanian supplied f-16s go upgradation?


----------



## Donatello

Munir said:


> There is no issue with copyright issues. We can not afford decent second hand F16's. AMARG is filled with maybe thousands of F16's... Many nations would love to sell theirs MLU 5 F16's... We rather buy something that nobody wants for cheaper then scrap price and then turn them into operational planes thanks to cheap labor. The parts are just bought on the commercial market. E.q. Belgium has huge number of parts for sale... (smile). The only wrong part of the presentation is that right ow these planes are super duper... That is clearly not the reality.



I believe the air chief has stated that these f-16s would be improved further. 3000 hours life means they aren't exactly falling apart. F-16 is F-16. You take care of it, it will last. You screw the maintenance and even a new F-16 will have trouble. What i mean to say is, these are certainly better than the antique Mirage III/V we have. All that is needed is upgrade to better avionics, the full MLU and perhaps FALCON STAR. As a whole i am not in favor of more offensive US equipment, but a system that has been used by Pakistan for decades is always a bonus. Spare parts should be plenty, since Turkey might be retiring some units soon and/or have a large stockpile of spare parts.

Now, i agree with your last sentence. In the current form, these F-16s are not very healthy. Since PAF refused to take the USN units (stating that they were driven too hard) i am sure they would have thought the same with these RJAF units. They would have seen that these units have life and can be upgraded.

I don't know the exact details, but i believe these will be upgraded. When, I don't know.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Munir

Informant said:


> Then he should be less of a cynic and more of an idealist. $5mil is nothing for a plane of F-16's caliber.



I think that a think tankmember/analistis not someone that is part of the crowd that loves everything what happens but looks at it very critically (not cynical my friend). F16 ADF is not that superb. Exactly how many are flying around? Nada. Even Jordans dumps them. AMARG has tons of block 30-42 parked side by side... I do not mind being questioned. But please do read facts and not react emotional. Thanks.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## elitepilot09

DANGER-ZONE said:


> You do not belong here dude ..... or start lying



@DANGER-ZONE 

I'm not too sure why you say this Danger? :S


----------



## Munir

Donatello said:


> I believe the air chief has stated that these f-16s would be improved further. 3000 hours life means they aren't exactly falling apart. F-16 is F-16. You take care of it, it will last. You screw the maintenance and even a new F-16 will have trouble. What i mean to say is, these are certainly better than the antique Mirage III/V we have. All that is needed is upgrade to better avionics, the full MLU and perhaps FALCON STAR. As a whole i am not in favor of more offensive US equipment, but a system that has been used by Pakistan for decades is always a bonus. Spare parts should be plenty, since Turkey might be retiring some units soon and/or have a large stockpile of spare parts.
> 
> Now, i agree with your last sentence. In the current form, these F-16s are not very healthy. Since PAF refused to take the USN units (stating that they were driven too hard) i am sure they would have thought the same with these RJAF units. They would have seen that these units have life and can be upgraded.
> 
> I don't know the exact details, but i believe these will be upgraded. When, I don't know.



We agree. I repeatedly sais that the current status is not super (pretty sure less then our Rose Mirages which have better avionics). I trust PAF to make them a lot better.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

It was a sarcastic remark over the points you raised ... you made some good points there.


----------



## Munir

Windjammer said:


> Here's a better quality video of the ceremony, according to ACM, these aircraft are in *excellent* condition and apart from securing the defence of the country they will be valuable for* training* as well.



Windjammer Saheb, I talked to Jordanians who were flying these planes. Real active duty pilot... I am pretty sure these are not best maintained planes. In the past I posted already the status of these Jordanian birds and many posters started acting hostile. The issue is that I cannot go into detail and how can I explain someone that does not know the status of F16 in different maintenance cycles? I know that the planes sold in much better condition from Holland and Belgium were also not very good... And those look a lot better then these ADF.

What do you expect from ACM? Tell you that these planes are not good enough?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Armstrong

Munir said:


> Would you risk sending an almost falling apart ADF while you could send Jf17 with BVR?


 
So are you suggesting that we're gonna cannibalize all or some of these for spare parts ?


----------



## Munir

Informant said:


> Direct 2000 miles plus distance isnt travelled by almost falling apart planes. Who made you a think tank?



My friend, I did not ask for any title. If you do not agree then there is the respected moderating team for you to ask to change it. I post here from what I know. I know that people from India think that LCA is 5th generation. Would you become angry if I told them on bases of facts that it is hardly 4th generation?



Armstrong said:


> So are you suggesting that we're gonna cannibalize all or some of these for spare parts ?



I did not say spare parts for other planes but using them as spare planes in case others are not available or to expensive... I hope that settles the spare part.

The statement that a plane is still good for say x thousand hours is depending on many maintenance and usage factors. If you just fly as a passenger jet and keep adding new parts then it could fly a lot more. If you fly above sea and do some 10-12 G very frequently you might dump it after a few hundred hours. And we need to see how it was used in the past. We need to see what we can do to upgrade the structure to handle more hours etc etc

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Armstrong

Munir said:


> I did not say spare parts for other planes but using them as spare planes in case others are not available or to expensive... I hope that settles the spare part.
> 
> The statement that a plane is still good for say x thousand hours is depending on many maintenance and usage factors. If you just fly as a passenger jet and keep adding new parts then it could fly a lot more. If you fly above sea and do some 10-12 G very frequently you might dump it after a few hundred hours. And we need to see how it was used in the past. We need to see what we can do to upgrade the structure to handle more hours etc etc


 
So the prime rationale behind their acquisition seems to be to build up numbers and use these assets intelligently/sparingly !

Damn, Munir Bhai, itneiii bureiii halaaat aa gaiii hain hum par !

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## elitepilot09

Informant said:


> Then he should be less of a cynic and more of an idealist. $5mil is nothing for a plane of F-16's caliber.



Informant, Munir is telling you and everyone else exactly what the situation is: The ex-RJAF F-16's are a good addition, but it's far from a game changer. Let's all put aside this spare parts nonsense and agree that new F-16s will serve a great purpose in a force which is doing the best it can given the funds that it has. More BVR capable jets go a long way in helping us. 

The concern right now should be- when is the earliest that we can MLU these jets. They have life in them, but with a new engine, radar and structural upgrades, they will be a great asset in our inventory. As far as I know, we have surplus MLU kits.. maybe someone can shed some light on exactly how many we have used and how many remain. 



DANGER-ZONE said:


> It was a sarcastic remark over the points you raised ... you made some good points there.



Thank you


----------



## MastanKhan

Hi,

So, what will happen now is that these aircraft will be at the bottom end in their capabilities---so---they will relieve the aircraft being used in fata for strike missions. And those aircraft ( which are more capable ) will be available for other services.

So---in that manner---our strike capability and air defence will increase by default---because we have more of similar aircraft which can be the bottom feeders.

So---by default----it still is a game changer.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Munir

Indeed even a not so good plane can be used in a way to make the team better. F16's can handle awful lot of ordnance... But air defense fighter is not suited for surgical strikes. No lantirn/Sniper pod. I expect 13 MLU kits to be ordered very soon. Imagine what 13 MLU'ed jets (block52) can do.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Basel

What kind of structural upgrades are available in market for F-16s, some where i had read that their life can be extended due to the material used in them, is it true?

USAF is also going to upgrade their F-16s and some special structural upgrade they will go through, will they allow these kind of upgrade to our planes in future??


----------



## Munir

structural life f16 is 8000 hours but the plane became heavier and used rougher
Falcon up is extending that 5500 max life to 8000 for the basic F16...
then there was something in between with MLU4 or 5 that did internal upgrade of the structure to keep that 8000 hours in mind but one had to remove the falcon up first (plane became more heavier used in operational status)...
and not you will get SLEP upgrade that extends it to 10.000-12.000 

I hope that settles it.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## rockstar08

Munir said:


> Indeed even a not so good plane can be used in a way to make the team better. F16's can handle awful lot of ordnance... But air defense fighter is not suited for surgical strikes. No lantirn/Sniper pod. I expect 13 MLU kits to be ordered very soon. Imagine what 13 MLU'ed jets (block52) can do.



sir jee after MLU kits , aren't they becoming block 40 ? just a question


----------



## Munir

You have MLU1,2,3,4,5... One can ask for block 50/52 (engine difference) specific parts hence upgrade towards that block.


----------



## aliyusuf

rockstar08 said:


> sir jee after MLU kits , aren't they becoming block 40 ? just a question



The details of the MLU components for the PAF F-16A/B Block-15 are copy pasted below from ...
Link: Billions to Upgrade and Up-arm Pakistan’s F-16s

This clearly shows that the PAF F-16AMs/BMs will be similar to the F-16C/D Block-52s w.r.t. Radar, JHMCS, Missiles etc.
However the Block-52s will remain superior in terms of Range, Payload, Engine Power, Loitering Time and CFTs.

The copy pasted stuff ...

*Item 3: F-16A/B Mid-Life Update Modification Kits – $1.3 billion*
According to the US DSCA, Pakistan intends to purchase the Mid-Life Upgrade (MLU) Program equipment “to enhance survivability, communications connectivity, and extend the useful life of its F-16A/B fighter aircraft. The modifications and upgrades in this proposed sale will permit Pakistan’s F-16A/B squadron to operate safely, and enhance Pakistan’s conventional deterrent capability. Pakistan’s air fleet can readily use these updates to enhance and extend the life of its aircraft.” The total value, if all options are exercised, is estimated as high as $1.3 billion, and subsequent Pentagon releases peg it at that figure.

The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of 60 F-16A/B




MLU and Falcon Star Structural Service Life Enhancement kits consisting of:

APG-68v9 with Synthetic Aperture Radar (option for cheaper less capable APG-66-2 is also available)
Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS)
AN/APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems
AN/ALE-47 Advanced Countermeasures Dispenser Systems
Have Quick I/II Radios
Link-16



Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals (MIDS-LVT)
SNIPER (formerly known as AN/AAQ-33 PANTERA) targeting pod capability
Reconnaissance pod capability
Advanced Air Combat Maneuvering Instrumentation Units (used for training exercises)
MDE included in the MLU modification and structural upgrade kits
21 ALQ-131 Block II Electronic Countermeasures Pods without the Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM); or ALQ-184 Electronic Countermeasures Pods without DRFM;
60 ALQ-213 Electronic Warfare Management Systems;
1 Unit Level Trainer; and
10 APG-68v9 spare radar sets.
Radars, modems, receivers, installation, avionics, spare and repair parts, support equipment, CONUS-personnel training and training equipment, technical assistance, publications and technical documentation, system drawings, U.S. Government and contractor engineering, and other related logistics elements necessary for full program support.

The principal contractors will be: 

BAE Advanced Systems in Greenlawn, NY
Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company in Fort Worth, TX
Lockheed Martin Missile and Fire Control in Dallas, TX
Northrop-Grumman Electro-Optical Systems in Garland, TX
Northrop-Grumman Electronic Systems in Baltimore, MD

*Item 4: F-16A/B Engine Modifications & UP/STAR – $151 Million*
The third contract involves Engine Modifications and Falcon UP/STAR Structural Upgrades as well as associated equipment and services. The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $151 million.

More specifically, the Government of Pakistan has requested engine improvements and structural modifications to its F-16 fleet, which includes a possible sale of:

14 F100-PW-220E engines

14 Falcon UP/STAR F-16 structural upgrade kits
De-modification and preparation of 26 aircraft
Support equipment, software development/integration, modification kits, spares and repair parts, flight test instrumentation, publications and technical documentation, personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics personnel services, and other related requirements to support the program.
The principal contractors will be: 

Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company in Fort Worth, TX
United Technology Company subsidiary Pratt & Whitney in East Hartford, CT.


----------



## krash

Armstrong said:


> But shouldn't an organization as sanctioned as the PAF be the best person to appreciate the possibility of acquiring as many F-16s as we could and having them MLUed in addition to going for the Block 52s as a matter of prudence as and when the first window of opportunity opened up ?



But why would they when they had the option of buying new ones. If they were supposed to arrange say a total of 100 F-16s, had the money and the US favour, none of us would have wanted them to go for used birds and neither would have they. Remember the initial intent of 77(?) F-16s. Then A happened and it became 36 then B happened and it became 18. Then C happened and the J-10s went out the window and now we had no money so we started to look for used birds. 

Remember that PAF could not have just kept on adding birds from all sides, we had (and still have) a specific number in mind, no more no less.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Donatello

Munir said:


> Indeed even a not so good plane can be used in a way to make the team better. F16's can handle awful lot of ordnance... But air defense fighter is not suited for surgical strikes. No lantirn/Sniper pod. I expect 13 MLU kits to be ordered very soon. Imagine what 13 MLU'ed jets (block52) can do.



Didn't they order 60kits back in 2005/06? If yes, then those should be enough. Would need to check these aircraft in Pakistan and send them to TAI when the remaining MLUs arrive from there.


----------



## krash

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> You can do that one or two times---won't happen after that.
> 
> Now if the opponent has aesa radar---regardless of what you do----as close you may fly---it can find out what type of engine you have and and then co-relate it to the type of aircraft---thus displaying the number of aircrafts coming at you.
> 
> In low flight---the ground clutter---the heat arising out of the ground can confuse a radar or a missile.



Of course, I was just pointing out that we can never count out the very basics, even if it were for just one very improbable situation.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## BATMAN

BATMAN said:


> No doubt, subject F-16's are too old.... they were given to RJAF out of a US junk yard.
> I wonder, how PAF would keep them airworthy........ spares!



I said it before, i say it again 'Spares' is the key word to keep these frames airworthy, and we are not aware of any spare 'spares' via public media.

Considering its longer range, i guess they would be used to carry strategic weapons, for which PAF can modify them locally, or close ground support, or training!

Considering, that JF-17 is a close match to F-16 blk-52, in air defence role and far exceed these birds in capability, life and reliability.... IMO, it was overall stupid move to waste precious forex.

In today's world, fighter plane without BVR and EW suite is only good for a kamikazi mission.


----------



## MastanKhan

BATMAN said:


> I said it before, i say it again 'Spares' is the key word to keep these frames airworthy, and we are not aware of any spare 'spares' via public media.
> 
> Considering its longer range, i guess they would be used to carry strategic weapons, for which PAF can modify them locally, or close ground support, or training!
> 
> Considering, that JF-17 is a close match to F-16 blk-52, in air defence role and far exceed these birds in capability, life and reliability.... IMO, it was overall stupid move to waste precious forex.
> 
> In today's world, fighter plane without BVR and EW suite is only good for a kamikazi mission.


 
Hi,

These aircraft are of perfect use for ground strike missions---. For dedicated ground strike missions---at times you don't even carry any missiles---just the weapons load---.

These aircraft will free up the better equipped aicraft for other jobs.

The JF 17 is not a close match to BLK 52---. For the purpose that the paf would want to use these F16's, they are already built and equipped for it.

If we dig any more into it----it would be like reading into TEA LEAVES.

If there were a 100 of these aircraft available with similar capabilities and similar price range---each one of them would be well worth for the job that would be needed to be done.

Spares are no issue with this aircraft---. Not all aircraft are needed to be BVR capable---because for ground strike missions---they won't be carrying the BVR's.

It is just like having a dirt bike and a multi purpose SUV---.


----------



## Viper 94

so PAF had 40 f-16s originally 
then came 14 from the US that were embargoed +13 from Jordan 
and the 18 Block 52+ 
that makes a total of 85 F-16s in PAF according to my calculation


----------



## BATMAN

Hello,



MastanKhan said:


> These aircraft are of perfect use for ground strike missions---. For dedicated ground strike missions---at times you don't even carry any missiles---just the weapons load---.



mean... close support mission!
otherwise for precision strikes they would need targeting pods, which again translates to upgrade. this is how i understand, but you may correct any time.



MastanKhan said:


> The JF 17 is not a close match to BLK 52


I meant comparing in air defence role.... and further i don't dig.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## elitepilot09

BATMAN said:


> I said it before, i say it again 'Spares' is the key word to keep these frames airworthy, and we are not aware of any spare 'spares' via public media.
> 
> Considering its longer range, i guess they would be used to carry strategic weapons, for which PAF can modify them locally, or close ground support, or training!
> 
> Considering, that JF-17 is a close match to F-16 blk-52,* in air defence role and far exceed these birds in capability, life and reliability*.... IMO, it was overall stupid move to waste precious forex.
> 
> In today's world, fighter plane without BVR and EW suite is only good for a kamikazi mission.



With all due respect, you're comparing a platform that has seen service with more than 20 nations around the world, is 40 odd years in maturity and seen action with a handul of countries of which we are a part... to one that has only been in service for 4 years, has seen no major conflict apart from bombing runs in KPK and only has 1 operator.

I am not taking anything away from the JF17, but one would be very naive to say that it has more "reliability."

As for your comment abount kamikazi nonsense, you are ill informed and the ADF F-16's are infact capable of being armed with AMRAAMs in tandem with their APG-66 radars.


----------



## MastanKhan

BATMAN said:


> Hello,
> 
> 
> 
> mean... close support mission!
> otherwise for precision strikes they would need targeting pods, which again translates to upgrade. this is how i understand, but you may correct any time.
> 
> 
> I meant comparing in air defence role.... and further i don't dig.


 

Hi,

You are right---. I think the first priority was to get these aircraft on the ground in pakistan---once you have them---then you can do so many things to them. Wasn't our first batch the most basic as well---and these aircaft maybe morre advanced than them.

These aircraft are 10 times their worth at this time---because they have freed up our better equipped F16's.


----------



## BATMAN

elitepilot09 said:


> I am not taking anything away from the JF17, but one would be very naive to say that it has more "reliability."


Since 2006 the a/c is been flown and have no issues so far, and a new airframe is always more reliable than a 30 year old airframe.... i'm not going to discuss the weapon package, avionics, EW, but there is nothing that subject F-16 match to current JF-17, other than more payload and combat radius.
I have mentioned of spares required next, to keep them airworthy, which no one is willing to discuss!



elitepilot09 said:


> As for your comment abount kamikazi nonsense, you are ill informed and the ADF F-16's are infact capable of being armed with AMRAAMs in tandem with their APG-66 radars.


Ok, when it is done than we'll discuss this matter, now discussing it seems more like a paper marriage.
And yes, if today 3 JF-17 are airborne vs. these 13 F-16... i would still say subject F-16 are on kamikazi mission.


----------



## Informant

Munir said:


> I think that a think tankmember/analistis not someone that is part of the crowd that loves everything what happens but looks at it very critically (not cynical my friend). F16 ADF is not that superb. Exactly how many are flying around? Nada. Even Jordans dumps them. AMARG has tons of block 30-42 parked side by side... I do not mind being questioned. But please do read facts and not react emotional. Thanks.



These aircrafts would be used instead of other planes and relieve the F-16s used elsewhere dropping bombs. This means better more capable Aircrafts will get used for air defence roles.

I do know these bad boys are Block 15-20 and far from being a game changer. It is what it really is, a $5mill plane ( supposedly) which is an F-16. No matter what happens, India will have to go back change the whole game plan seeing us having another squadron on the front line.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## BATMAN

Informant said:


> These aircrafts would be used instead of other planes and relieve the F-16s used elsewhere dropping bombs.


Where do we need to drop bombs, which other low cost a/c can't do with same accuracy?


----------



## elitepilot09

BATMAN said:


> Since 2006 the a/c is been flown and have no issues so far, and a new airframe is always more reliable than a 30 year old airframe.... i'm not going to discuss the weapon package, avionics, EW, but there is nothing that subject F-16 match to current JF-17, other than more payload and combat radius.
> I have mentioned of spares required next, to keep them airworthy, which no one is willing to discuss!
> 
> Ok, when it is done than we'll discuss this matter, now discussing it seems more like a paper marriage.
> And yes, if today 3 JF-17 are airborne vs. these 13 F-16... i would still say subject F-16 are on kamikazi mission.



1. If a new airframe is better than a 30 year old airframe, then please enlighten me as to why countries all around the world continue to purchase the F-16 over the JF-17. 

2. You are right... *ON PAPER* the F-16 ADF is inferior to the JF-17. But once again, you would be very naive to jump to conclusions. Wars aren't won on paper after all.

3. I don't see how or why you cannot simply process in your mind that the ADF F-16 is capable of firing the AMRAAM. I simply don't understand... It's not a matter of "when it's done", it has always been done! 

Once JF-17 helps Pakistan stop a conquering super power as our F-16's did the Soviets in the late 80's, then I will admit it. Until then, the F-16 will always be a superior platform.


----------



## BATMAN

elitepilot09 said:


> why countries all around the world continue to purchase the F-16 over the JF-17.


They need more payload and combat radius, which will be offset with more powerful engine and IFR.



elitepilot09 said:


> F-16 ADF is inferior to the JF-17


dam right... no offence meant to you.




elitepilot09 said:


> ADF F-16 is capable of firing the AMRAAM


I will check on it tomorrow, or you post some link.




elitepilot09 said:


> JF-17 helps Pakistan stop a conquering super power as our F-16's did the Soviets in the late 80's


If we had JF-17 result would be same.


----------



## MastanKhan

BATMAN said:


> Where do we need to drop bombs, which other low cost a/c can't do with same accuracy?


 
Hi,

The F16 carries almost twice or three times the load of a JF 17---mirage 3/4---F7PG---and has many an hours longer loiter time than either of these aircraft wihtout air refuelling.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Munir

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> You are right---. I think the first priority was to get these aircraft on the ground in pakistan---once you have them---then you can do so many things to them. Wasn't our first batch the most basic as well---and these aircaft maybe morre advanced than them.
> 
> These aircraft are 10 times their worth at this time---because they have freed up our better equipped F16's.



The new F16 can be used to designate targets and these planes can be used as bombers that just take the bombs to the targets. New planes are kept shine and new and these planes are used as bomb trucks.



Thorough Pro said:


> I thought Munir meant spare (extra) jets for patrol duty, not spare parts.
> 
> Off course you can't buy wisdom with money, but the



I think even in case of Mirages PAF make the planes flying again. Only when planes are so bad that they can not be repaired then it is used as spare parts... Same with the cobra's. I think getting these for that price makes them still to expensive to be used as spare parts. There is a different engine. Different avionics. And I doubt these parts would end up in our MLU and block 52. Those planes are very very much used as high end. No second hand parts for sure...


----------



## ziaulislam

*do we have any idea on the price tag? 5 million ?10 million per piece? or more?.*
also these f-16s are available for quite some time but we buy them now, who funded this sale is another question.
when we talk of cost effectiveness, we will have to keep the cost factor in mind


----------



## krash

Viper 94 said:


> so PAF had 40 f-16s originally
> then came 14 from the US that were embargoed +13 from Jordan
> and the 18 Block 52+
> that makes a total of 85 F-16s in PAF according to my calculation



Out of the original 1 was lost during the Soviet-Afghan war due to friendly fire and 7 met different accidents and were cannibalized for spares. Then in 2009 one of the 14 embargoed F-16s that we had received crashed. So that makes it 32 (original) + 13 (embargoed) + 18 (Block 52+) + 13 (Jordanian) resulting in a total of 76 F-16s in our inventory.

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## Windjammer

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The F16 carries almost twice or three times the load of a JF 17---mirage 3/4---F7PG---and has many an hours longer loiter time than either of these aircraft wihtout air refuelling.


Above all it's one of the most combat proven aircraft in the world with an impeccable record and probably the most widely used as well.....the effect is such that Pakistan receives a dozen extra used F-16s and the Indian forums are in a melt down.

Reactions: Like Like:
10


----------



## Informant

Windjammer said:


> Above all it's one of the most combat proven aircraft in the world with an impeccable record and probably the most widely used as well.....the effect is such that Pakistan receives a dozen extra used F-16s and the Indian forums are in a melt down.



UnKILL on a killing spree since yesterday.


----------



## nana41

elitepilot09 said:


> 1. If a new airframe is better than a 30 year old airframe, then please enlighten me as to why countries all around the world continue to purchase the F-16 over the JF-17.
> 
> 2. You are right... *ON PAPER* the F-16 ADF is inferior to the JF-17. But once again, you would be very naive to jump to conclusions. Wars aren't won on paper after all.
> 
> 3. I don't see how or why you cannot simply process in your mind that the ADF F-16 is capable of firing the AMRAAM. I simply don't understand... It's not a matter of "when it's done", it has always been done!
> 
> Once JF-17 helps Pakistan stop a conquering super power as our F-16's did the Soviets in the late 80's, then I will admit it. Until then, the F-16 will always be a superior platform.


JF-17 is not ready for sale to any country,although there are a few prospective customers.This machine will be available for sale in 2016 with Chinese engine (WS-13/17) only.


----------



## Munir

One needs to look at how long it took for Gripen to start export... The JF17 is already ahead of everything. It takes indeed Jf17 Block 2 to start selling. And we need to make it and test it first.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## araz

nana41 said:


> JF-17 is not ready for sale to any country,although there are a few prospective customers.This machine will be available for sale in 2016 with Chinese engine (WS-13/17) only.


 Could you please provide a source for this information. it is contrary to what we have been hearing.
Araz


----------



## araz

Guys.
As I have said before this is the best possible augmentation for a resource constrained AF with lack of infrastructure. People who are purporting buying more JFT need to understand that we need a hi end aircraft for the Hi Lo scenario. The price per unit sourced by posters on this forum is 5 million/ unit which is the cheapest ever for a high end aircraft. We have provisions for and may depending on our need uprate the avionics and Radar plus engine locally from the MLU kits available. I cant think of any other way of improving our position more rapidly than with these F16s. They may look shabby but guys these are palnes not your Corollas on the outside of your house that needs to shine all the time. If PAF says they are sturdy and in good shape that is what it is unless proven otherwise.
Thirdly even if we need to MLU/Update them and an MLU kit from information available is 20 million, then for 25 million you are getting a fine plane. People fighting to get the J10 dont realize the cost and the time involved in developing the infrastructure for a new plane. In support I would say that PAF can only retain JFTs either at Kamra or at Peshawar inspite of so many years evolving. Does that tell you something!!
Take it for what it is. It is the efforts of a poor AF to keep abreast of its rich cousinwithout breaking the bank. So a few hand me downs wont go amiss.
Araz

Reactions: Like Like:
10


----------



## nana41

araz said:


> Could you please provide a source for this information. it is contrary to what we have been hearing.
> Araz


Pakistan got 200 russian engines via china on the condition of no sale to third country.Each machine requires 2 engines, this gives Pakistan 100 machines.50 have been delivered/inducted, the remaining 50 will be completed by the middle of 2016.By that time WS-13/17 Engine will be ready for JF-17 block 3 with aesa radar.Since Chinese do not allow Pakistan sell the aeroplane with any other engine ,Export and remaining PAF requirements will then begin.This is my cumulative assessment based upon continous following of JF-17 wprogram since 1992.Only AERONAUT can provide you with authoritative info.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## nana41

Informant said:


> UnKILL on a killing spree since yesterday.


Hello! Shararti putter...I did what you ordered, and they enjoyed it.


Informant said:


> UnKILL on a killing spree since yesterday.


----------



## niaz

nana41 said:


> Pakistan got 200 russian engines via china on the condition of no sale to third country.Each machine requires 2 engines, this gives Pakistan 100 machines.50 have been delivered/inducted, the remaining 50 will be completed by the middle of 2016.By that time WS-13/17 Engine will be ready for JF-17 block 3 with aesa radar.Since Chinese do not allow Pakistan sell the aeroplane with any other engine ,Export and remaining PAF requirements will then begin.This is my cumulative assessment based upon continous following of JF-17 wprogram since 1992.Only AERONAUT can provide you with authoritative info.



Surely JF-17 has only one engine. Why do you need 2 engines for each machine?


----------



## Donatello

niaz said:


> Surely JF-17 has only one engine. Why do you need 2 engines for each machine?



150 for the 150 jets ordered, and perhaps 50 more for reserve in case needed for new planes/replacement.

It will definitely not be 2 engines, but more like a bunch of them for reserve stocks.


----------



## Black Eagle 90

Donatello said:


> 150 for the 150 jets ordered, and perhaps 50 more for reserve in case needed for new planes/replacement.
> 
> It will definitely not be 2 engines, but more like a bunch of them for reserve stocks.


But we are hoping best from ALLAH that Block-IIs will be more advance like with composites, better engines & avionics and even better range and payloads. But there are some suggestion that PAC might going to produce about 100+ of these for PAF.

Also I would like to see that Jordan, Egypt, Libya and Algeria would gain license to produce them in large numbers as well.

Although it would be great if PAC has welcomed Egypt, Libya & Algeria on Mushak-Super Mushak, K-8s(20% shares of each along with China as well) and JF-17s program. As Pakistan along with Egypt, Libya & Algeria can easily take on the whole JF-17s program with 25% shares of each with CAC just helping to develop it.


----------



## Gryphon

*Pakistan receives first batch of Jordanian F-16s*

*Farhan Bokhari, Islamabad* - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
30 April 2014

The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) formally inducted the first five of 13 Lockheed Martin F-16 fighter aircraft it has bought from the Royal Jordanian Air Force in a 27 April ceremony at Mushaf airbase in Sargodha.

The PAF confirmed that the 13 F-16s to be eventually inducted comprise 12 F-16As and one F-16B. All were originally Block 15 models, but have undergone mid-life upgrades though no further information was disclosed on their weapon systems and/or avionics.

A PAF official told _IHS Jane's_ that with the induction of the five Jordanian F-16s, the PAF now had 76 F-16s. These include 18 F-16C/D Block 52 versions; the remaining 58 are all of the A/ B variants.

(114 of 276 words)

Pakistan receives first batch of Jordanian F-16s - IHS Jane's 360


----------



## MastanKhan

niaz said:


> Surely JF-17 has only one engine. Why do you need 2 engines for each machine?



The second engine is a spare---when the first one is being worked on---.


----------



## nana41

niaz said:


> Surely JF-17 has only one engine. Why do you need 2 engines for each machine?


Aircraft engine takes roughly about 2 months to complete an overhaul in Pakistan, thats when 2nd engine is used.During that period of time the aeoplane is usless if 2nd engine is not readily available.


----------



## Munir

There are no two engines per plane anywhere... You have a percentage of engines as being spares. Let say 5 engines per squadron. And you have always a book and planning where all the planes are put in to go through all those inspections and maintenance. And in case of Pakistan you do not even have planes for fixed place in a particular squadron. Planes go to maintenance and are released for duty. I hope that settles all the stories that we need 2 engines per plane.


----------



## nana41

Donatello said:


> 150 for the 150 jets ordereis, and perhaps 50 more for reserve in case needed for new planes/replacement.
> 
> It will definitely not be 2 engines, but more like a bunch of them for reserve stocks.


Normally yes, but due to no direct agreement with russians, PAF , I believe Is being careful.Establishment of repair/overhaul workshop was dicussed during Gen.Kiani's visit of Russia.


----------



## BATMAN

elitepilot09 said:


> ADF F-16 is capable of firing the AMRAAM



I concur that, references suggest...that Jordan may have received the block-15, which werer upgraded for AIM.
But, my apprehensions are from where do we get spares, to keep them airworthy?


----------



## BATMAN

araz said:


> Thirdly even if we need to MLU/Update them and an MLU kit from information available is 20 million, then for 25 million you are getting a fine plane.


These were already upgraded in 1996-97, before being delivered to Jordan, out of AMARAC junk, now i'm not sure, how many times an airframe can be upgraded! May be a general overhaul and that's all.



araz said:


> In support I would say that PAF can only retain JFTs either at Kamra or at Peshawar inspite of so many years evolving. Does that tell you something!!



It does not tell me any thing wrong with JF-17, in 2006 it started its manufacturing of first batch, and later the program faced engineered setbacks, but it kept crawling upwards.

IMO, they are located at best possible place, and there are bright chances that a naval squadron may be next in line.


----------



## BATMAN

Informant said:


> India will have to go back change the whole game plan seeing us having another squadron on the front line.


Is it not 13 F-16 ?


----------



## Informant

BATMAN said:


> Is it not 13 F-16 ?



Yup, another whole squadron. That is HUGE BUMP in capabilities.


----------



## BATMAN

Informant said:


> Yup, another whole squadron. That is HUGE BUMP in capabilities.


Probably, this is 2/3 of a squadorn

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## araz

nana41 said:


> Pakistan got 200 russian engines via china on the condition of no sale to third country.Each machine requires 2 engines, this gives Pakistan 100 machines.50 have been delivered/inducted, the remaining 50 will be completed by the middle of 2016.By that time WS-13/17 Engine will be ready for JF-17 block 3 with aesa radar.Since Chinese do not allow Pakistan sell the aeroplane with any other engine ,Export and remaining PAF requirements will then begin.This is my cumulative assessment based upon continous following of JF-17 wprogram since 1992.Only AERONAUT can provide you with authoritative info.


However, contrary to the assumption of RD93 not being for sale to a third country PAF is actively marketing and is not shy from selling it. So the two do not add up. Although I personally agree we will not have much success unless we have a chinese engine. Iam merely trying to make sense at the disprity of the two thoughts to try and make sense of this conundrum. 



BATMAN said:


> These were already upgraded in 1996-97, before being delivered to Jordan, out of AMARAC junk, now i'm not sure, how many times an airframe can be upgraded! May be a general overhaul and that's all.
> 
> 
> 
> It does not tell me any thing wrong with JF-17, in 2006 it started its manufacturing of first batch, and later the program faced engineered setbacks, but it kept crawling upwards.
> .
> IMO, they are located at best possible place, and there are bright chances that a naval squadron may be next in line.


Hi
You have querried two points where I was not clear. There has been an ongoing debate as to whether these pĺanes have been MLUed or not. My response was designed keeping both scenarios in mind. Even if you believe the official story that they have 3000hrs life left then they need capability upgrade with APG68V9 and new avionics. At 200 hrs a yr they are still good for 15yrs. This is not a bad buy at all.
Regarding JFT, one of the reason for not establishing the 3rd squadron is lack of infrastructure due to lack of resources. The other may have been lack of trained manpower. This is why you only have 2 squadron at Peshawar and Kamra inspite of having at least 42 planes in service. I think normal squadron strength is 14_16 planes with PAF. When you establish the infrastructure this is when you will have the third squadron .
Regards
Araz

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Donatello

BATMAN said:


> Probably, this is 2/3 of a squadorn



but along with the previous 63 units, now 76 f-16s allow for 4 full squadrons of 19 a/c each. No 5, 9, 11 and now 19 squadron. No 5 sqd has the new 18 blk52+ so that leaves 1 for spare or attrition in other squadrons. But yes, PAF effectively doubled its f-16 strength from 32 old ones in 2005 to 76 now.


----------



## nana41

[quAZERBAIJANaraz, post: 5608479, member: 1124"]However, contrary to the assumption of RD93 not being for sale to a third country PAF is actively marketing and is not shy from selling it. So the two do not add up. Although I personally agree we will not have much success unless we have a chinese engine. Iam merely trying to make sense at the disprity of the two thoughts to try and make sense of this conundrum.

I
Hi
You have querried two points where I was not clear. There has been an ongoing debate as to whether these pĺanes have been MLUed or not. My response was designed keeping both scenarios in mind. Even if you believe the official story that they have 3000hrs life left then they need capability upgrade with APG68V9 and new avionics. At 200 hrs a yr they are still good for 15yrs. This is not a bad buy at all.
Regarding JFT, one of the reason for not establishing the 3rd squadron is lack of infrastructure due to lack of resources. The other may have been lack of trained manpower. This is why you only have 2 squadron at Peshawar and Kamra inspite of having at least 42 planes in service. I think normal squadron strength is 14_16 planes with PAF. When you establish the infrastructure this is when you will have the third squadron .
Regards
Araz[/quote]
ARAZ, if Azerbaijan wanted 24, Zimbabwe 12 and Sri Lanka 6, why didnt Pakistan accept the orders.?.....you can place order but delivery only after 2016.


----------



## BATMAN

araz said:


> There has been an ongoing debate as to whether these pĺanes have been MLUed or not.


Jordan wanted to have all their F-16 at common MLU standard, hence they expired intial 13, which according to them can't be upgraded to MLU standard.



araz said:


> Even if you believe the official story that they have 3000hrs life left



I don't believe in this story, simply because after 4000 hrs. is the total life of an airframe, and at those times there was no concept of re-sale of used a/c hence i assume US may have flew those a/c till the last hour, before scraping them.
now since, before delivery from AMARAC scrap, these were upgraded, let's assume that upgrade may have lifted its operational life to another 4000 hrs.
Jordan, have flew these extensively, hence i see no logic in believing that there are 3000 hrs. left. we know Jordan has been very active in exercises with these F-16 and there is more to believe that those were flown beyond there service life.


----------



## BATMAN

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The F16 carries almost twice or three times the load of a JF 17---mirage 3/4---F7PG---and has many an hours longer loiter time than either of these aircraft wihtout air refuelling.



may be not twice / thrice


----------



## araz

BATMAN said:


> Jordan wanted to have all their F-16 at common MLU standard, hence they expired intial 13, which according to them can't be upgraded to MLU standard.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't believe in this story, simply because after 4000 hrs. is the total life of an airframe, and at those times there was no concept of re-sale of used a/c hence i assume US may have flew those a/c till the last hour, before scraping them.
> now since, before delivery from AMARAC scrap, these were upgraded, let's assume that upgrade may have lifted its operational life to another 4000 hrs.
> Jordan, have flew these extensively, hence i see no logic in believing that there are 3000 hrs. left. we know Jordan has been very active in exercises with these F-16 and there is more to believe that those were flown beyond there service life.



What you are saying is that your ACM is lying as the 3000hrs life story comes from him. If this is true then he should be court martialled. There are other sources from pakdef info basically corroborating what the ACM has said . I myself dont have any way of confirming/ denying what you are suggesting to this board that this is an elaborate fraud.
As far as I know not all Planes stored at AMARC have flown their full quota of 4000 hrs..these planes were inducted in the 80s and in early 90s were stored . At an average of 250hrs. At 10 yrs they should have had 1500 hrs left. After MLU this life would have extended by another 4000hrs. I AM ASSUMING a range of 220 hrs per yrs for 12 yrs (2001_2013) 2600 hrs of flying. It still leaves 2900 hrs life in the airframe by my calculations which is very close to what the ACM is saying. You will see that I have been fairly generous in calculating the flying hours. I can be fairly sure the jordanians have not done anywhere close to the number of hours that I have attributed to them. So on pure numbers your logic does not make sense to me. I am not arguing with you for the sake of having an argument. I really want to make sence out of what you are saying. At the end of the day we are both not Aeronautical engineers with insite into PAF s working patterns and even from past experience with the mirages it does not make Sense to me. So this is the reason I am disputing your post.
Regards
Araz

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## BATMAN

araz said:


> What you are saying is that your ACM is lying as the 3000hrs life story comes from him. If this is true then he should be court martialled. There are other sources from pakdef info basically corroborating what the ACM has said . I myself dont have any way of confirming/ denying what you are suggesting to this board that this is an elaborate fraud.
> As far as I know not all Planes stored at AMARC have flown their full quota of 4000 hrs..these planes were inducted in the 80s and in early 90s were stored . At an average of 250hrs. At 10 yrs they should have had 1500 hrs left. After MLU this life would have extended by another 4000hrs. I AM ASSUMING a range of 220 hrs per yrs for 12 yrs (2001_2013) 2600 hrs of flying. It still leaves 2900 hrs life in the airframe by my calculations which is very close to what the ACM is saying. You will see that I have been fairly generous in calculating the flying hours. I can be fairly sure the jordanians have not done anywhere close to the number of hours that I have attributed to them. So on pure numbers your logic does not make sense to me. I am not arguing with you for the sake of having an argument. I really want to make sence out of what you are saying. At the end of the day we are both not Aeronautical engineers with insite into PAF s working patterns and even from past experience with the mirages it does not make Sense to me. So this is the reason I am disputing your post.
> Regards
> Araz



What i'm suggesting...... i have mentioned clearly, there is nothing between the lines.

I doubt, that subject F-16 were scraped to AMARAC, while their were any hours left, because at that time their was no concept of refurbishment of an expired a/c. so no logic to junk an airworthy a/c, otherwise US/Jordan may not need to make structural upgrade and engine replacement, before handover/takeover.

second logic is again, calculated from your conservative figures 250 x (1981-94)13 = 3250 hrs. just 750 hrs. short of design life.

In the end, what matters is that how many hours, Jordan flew in 17 years? considering these were the first F-16 in RJAF, and they were used for training and in every exercise! than again going by your calculation 250 x (1997-2014) 17 = 4250 hrs.

I don't see, why subject a/c should be called flight worthy!

Now, i have already stated, why i think Jordan expired them. i.e they are incapable, of any advance upgrade.

If there is more than do tell us, or we can agree on disagreeing.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Viper0011.

araz said:


> You have querried two points where I was not clear. There has been an ongoing debate as to whether these pĺanes have been MLUed or not.
> Araz



These planes did go through MLU. But the MLU program was somewhat different than what it means to the PAF. These were ADF version -16's, meaning they already had certain provisioning in it for the BVR weapons, upgrades, etc. The older MLU was primarily around the structural upgrades and overhauls with basic avionics upgrades, unless like Pakistan, someone specifically required it. These -16's now have little room for further MLU as their space inside is primarily taken and its already saturated. But the idea behind buying these isn't to further MLU them. That would be silly. The ideal is to acquire a potent multi-role capability with focus on interception (ADF version) that doesn't require further money to be spent on these like the rest of the PAF fleet. For that purpose, this is a great buy. For a fraction of the cost, you have interceptors ready to use AMRAAMS without a day worth of gap since they landed. In Pakistan's scenario, the BVR capability is more than sufficient as is. Even if the next Gen AMRAAM's added 100 extra miles worth of range with next Gen radars......majority of the threat center is around India for the PAF. The FOB's are within a couple of hundred KM's so technically you could lock onto an incoming bogie while it's well within 50 miles of the border....... That pretty much takes care of the threat sector for the PAF

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## MastanKhan

Jordanian airforce don't fly 250 hrs a year----maybe 150 to 175 hrs a year. 250 hrs is for an extremely high combat ready force----.

Jordanians don't face that kind of threat to fly that many hrs a year.


----------



## Munir

So you guys think that one plane is assigned to one pilot? I do not think so. You can fly one mission without refueling 5 hours. Maybe two or three times a day with a plane... During wartime scenario which we often have they planes fly double hours...


----------



## Manticore

11 Royal Jordanian Air Force pilots have reached 1,000 flying hours or more in the F-16 Fighting Falcon so far.
F-16 News

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## khanasifm

14 sqn is next Jf-17 sqn, 18, CCS and 2 sqn will be replaced by jf 17in the next batch and that the end of F7p, total life of F7p is 800 X 3 (overhaul intervals, ~2400 hours) hours for comparison to F16.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Najam Khan

BATMAN said:


> What i'm suggesting...... i have mentioned clearly, there is nothing between the lines.
> 
> *In the end, what matters is that how many hours, Jordan flew in 17 years? considering these were the first F-16 in RJAF, and they were used for training and in every exercise! than again going by your calculation 250 x (1997-2014) 17 = 4250 hrs.
> 
> I don't see, why subject a/c should be called flight worthy!*
> 
> Now, i have already stated, why i think Jordan expired them. i.e they are incapable, of any advance upgrade.
> 
> If there is more than do tell us, or we can agree on disagreeing.



Well it was the first time when PAF CAS shared details of any procurement so openly with media i.e Flying hours left on an airframe. This was not meant for thinkers like you on internet to pick a calculator and start falsifying his 'official word' on 'air-worthiness / flight safety status' of these aircraft.

Flight worthiness is is not just about achieving flying hours, its how that aircraft's team manages its repair and maintenance. Do they replace all faulty parts on time? / install and replace new LRUs (BTW F16 has 140+ LRUs which make it very maintenance friendly) ? Are all sqn aircraft undergone depot level maintenance (post-sqn-level-maintenance) as per set timeline?

I disagree with your hypothesis on air worthiness of these aircraft, based on these calculations on air worthiness PAF original F-16s (Peacegate-I/II) would never be regarded as 'air-worthy' before achieving MLU. Still PAF managed to use these machines (without any MLU) in war-on-terror for good 4+ years.

Here are some facts shared with media on PAF F-16s usage, which would help you reconsider your hypothesis.

1- 40 aircraft procured till late 80s, extensive use in Soviet/Afghan war (13,275 hours flight in war use 1986-1989)
2- 100,000 accident free hours achieved from 1995-2005 (with 32 aircraft in use)
3- 5500 combat sorties in war on terror August'2008-Aug'2011.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## My-Analogous

Neptune said:


> Block 40 requires for C and D variants of Viper



Not really


----------



## BATMAN

Najam Khan said:


> Well it was the first time when PAF CAS shared details of any procurement so openly with media i.e Flying hours left on an airframe. This was not meant for thinkers like you on internet to pick a calculator and start falsifying his 'official word' on 'air-worthiness / flight safety status' of these aircraft.
> 
> Flight worthiness is is not just about achieving flying hours, its how that aircraft's team manages its repair and maintenance. Do they replace all faulty parts on time? / install and replace new LRUs (BTW F16 has 140+ LRUs which make it very maintenance friendly) ? Are all sqn aircraft undergone depot level maintenance (post-sqn-level-maintenance) as per set timeline?
> 
> I disagree with your hypothesis on air worthiness of these aircraft, based on these calculations on air worthiness PAF original F-16s (Peacegate-I/II) would never be regarded as 'air-worthy' before achieving MLU. Still PAF managed to use these machines (without any MLU) in war-on-terror for good 4+ years.
> 
> Here are some facts shared with media on PAF F-16s usage, which would help you reconsider your hypothesis.
> 
> 1- 40 aircraft procured till late 80s, extensive use in Soviet/Afghan war (13,275 hours flight in war use 1986-1989)
> 2- 100,000 accident free hours achieved from 1995-2005 (with 32 aircraft in use)
> 3- 5500 combat sorties in war on terror August'2008-Aug'2011.



i was not discussing with ACM, so no reason to believe.... i was falsifying him, neither i was falsifying any one else. which, I have made very clear in my reply to araz, same post you have quoted.

This is my way, i always think logically, to any claim or statement from any one, hence my calculation and nor did i find your (above) reply very convincing.

However, If you think, it was not my right, delete my calculation or mark it negative.... or you can have some indian, do your laundry.

You are not discussing here, hence there is nothing more to discuss, from my side either.


----------



## elitepilot09



Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## MastanKhan

BATMAN said:


> i was not discussing with ACM, so no reason to believe.... i was falsifying him, neither i was falsifying any one else. which, I have made very clear in my reply to araz, same post you have quoted.
> 
> This is my way, i always think logically, to any claim or statement from any one, hence my calculation and nor did i find your (above) reply very convincing.



Sir,

No disrespect----You have to look at it this way---are you qualified to make that assessment----. Logical thinking is not enough---. There is more to it that meets the eye.


As for the sale of JF17---pakistan needs to stop talking about it---stop marketing it----. Put a veil on the program for awhile.

Let the THIRSTY COME TO THE WELL----don't go abegging to sell your wares.

In car sales talk---we have a saying for weak sales people who cannot sell anything-----like---" this saleman cannot sell a bottle of water to a thirsty in the middle of sahara desert under a hot blistering sun "-----this is how bad pakistan is.

Reactions: Positive Rating Positive Rating:
1 | Like Like:
8


----------



## Munir

This is one of the best post i have read. Someone who links two aspects like no other. I agree, paf is not able to do this. If i want to sell Ferrari to a rich man then i do not ask the engineers to do that. Nor would the best f1 driver do that. We might hate car sellers but they do know our psycology and they know how to sell. These kind of talents are what we need in the jf17 team. This is one of the biggest mistakes of the jf17 project.





MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> 
> No disrespect----You have to look at it this way---are you qualified to make that assessment----. Logical thinking is not enough---. There is more to it that meets the eye.
> 
> 
> As for the sale of JF17---pakistan needs to stop talking about it---stop marketing it----. Put a veil on the program for awhile.
> 
> Let the THIRSTY COME TO THE WELL----don't go abegging to sell your wares.
> 
> In car sales talk---we have a saying for weak sales people who cannot sell anything-----like---" this saleman cannot sell a bottle of water to a thirsty in the middle of sahara desert under a hot blistering sun "-----this is how bad pakistan is.


is​

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Munir

One doesn't sell a plane to pilots or engineers but to political leaders or commercial parties. Every fighterjet sold to the Dutch was political motivated and often (probably surely) not the best option to buy. Somehow PAF thinks it needs fighterpilots to convince politicians.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## krash

Munir said:


> This is one of the best post i have read. Someone who links two aspects like no other. I agree, paf is not able to do this. If i want to sell Ferrari to a rich man then i do not ask the engineers to do that. Nor would the best f1 driver do that. We might hate car sellers but they do know our psycology and they know how to sell. These kind of talents are what we need in the jf17 team. This is one of the biggest mistakes of the jf17 project.
> ​



This is what you get when it's been instilled in you that you are the best at everything and above all the lowly maggots roaming around you. Pakistan military's marketing is just embarrassing, but do they learn? Of course not. It's like a bunch of highschoolers trying to sell a plane, even the slides they make are pathetic.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## rockstar08

MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> 
> No disrespect----You have to look at it this way---are you qualified to make that assessment----. Logical thinking is not enough---. There is more to it that meets the eye.
> 
> 
> *As for the sale of JF17---pakistan needs to stop talking about it---stop marketing it----. Put a veil on the program for awhile.
> 
> Let the THIRSTY COME TO THE WELL----don't go abegging to sell your wares.*
> 
> In car sales talk---we have a saying for weak sales people who cannot sell anything-----like---" this saleman cannot sell a bottle of water to a thirsty in the middle of sahara desert under a hot blistering sun "-----this is how bad pakistan is.



I completely agree with this part Sir ...


----------



## Quwa

We're also assuming that prospective JF-17 customers actually think based on their own free will and not the wishes of their foreign patrons (i.e. investors, aid donors, etc).

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Munir

If you buy 34 years old adf f16's while you want to sell your brand new jf17's... Even an idiot would think twice buying your jf17. Surely those f16's are cheap and will be improved but what message did you send? It is not about f16's but bad marketing of your jf17. It is like France buying us f5 while trying to sell Rafales... But then again... Uk buys jsf while trying to decrease ef2000 as much as possible. The arabs are still buying ef2000 (which cannot even win against paf mlu f16's)... But Arabs have never bought anything based on logic.

Reactions: Positive Rating Positive Rating:
1 | Like Like:
2


----------



## Quwa

Well everyone knows Pakistan is broke, the PAF buying used F-16s (dirt cheap) and trying to sell JF-17s (for profit) actually does make a lot of sense. The PAF wanted 250 JF-17, but the lack of money is a deficiency and the PAF's next best option is used F-16s, especially when there are F-7s and Mirages that need to be replaced soon.

That said, there are plenty of countries out there that do not have the option to go and simply buy used F-16s, yet they operate F-7s and other old fighters. MiG-29 and Su-30 may be an option for quite a few of them, but I doubt either is as accessible (financially and politically) as JF-17. There's something stopping these air forces from getting JF-17 and it's not likely the fighter itself or Pakistan, but other powers.

Countries such as Nigeria, Albania, Bangladesh, etc are like Pakistan in that their rulers don't care about vital national interests, they're just looking to make a quick buck from aid and shady investment. These governments are basically sell-outs and could care less about the needs of their armed forces, the pockets of generals notwithstanding.

The ones enabling that aid and investment are governments - e.g. America - that do not want systems such as JF-17 prolific and operated globally. Let alone the possibility of a BVR and precision-strike platform being everywhere, imagine the thought of the Chinese deepening their military-to-military relations across Africa, the Balkans, Asia, etc. Heck imagine if Pakistani officers end up in half as many places as the Chinese...

Some of these air forces might have prepared the papers for evaluating JF-17, but when the papers went up the chain, they got "lost" (i.e. shredded).

Back to the topic of used F-16s, I think the PAF is actively aiming to build a fleet of 100+ F-16A/Bs of various types (OCU, ADF and MLU). I'm interested in seeing how F-16C/Ds go. In 2005 (pre-earthquake) the PAF intended to acquire as many as 55-75 new F-16C/Ds, it'd be interesting to see if they can reach that point. Of course, new F-16s are largely out of the question, but used F-16C/Ds are possible, and with CCIP as well as new upgrades (e.g. AESA), these might be very potent.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Pfpilot

MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> 
> No disrespect----You have to look at it this way---are you qualified to make that assessment----. Logical thinking is not enough---. There is more to it that meets the eye.
> 
> 
> As for the sale of JF17---pakistan needs to stop talking about it---stop marketing it----. Put a veil on the program for awhile.
> 
> Let the THIRSTY COME TO THE WELL----don't go abegging to sell your wares.
> 
> In car sales talk---we have a saying for weak sales people who cannot sell anything-----like---" this saleman cannot sell a bottle of water to a thirsty in the middle of sahara desert under a hot blistering sun "-----this is how bad pakistan is.



In my opinion, a great portion of the blame also lies in our expectations. Arms deals to the third world aren't like a car sale, unless the Japanese government twists my arm and passively forces me to buy a Honda Civic, as a part of a wider deal in which they rebuild half my house, receive permission to land armed forces in my backyard and gain my support on most political issues and agreement to buy almost exclusively Japanese cars as a means to prop up their automotive industry. As a car buyer, I am not a slave to Japanese policies against other nations and am free to flip flop on which brand to give my business, without having to worry about loosing access to Civic parts and electricity to my house.

Money speaks above all else in arms purchases, but it does not do so at the expense of what a purchase entails for the buying nation. This is magnified in the case of third world nations, because many of these sales are sweeteners to higher level diplomatic and economic dealings and come with favorable financing terms, which are the price for the strings attached. The f-16 was such a success, not simply because it is a great fighter, but because, in the same mold as the mig-21 for the Soviets, it forms a significant part of the American global diplomacy. F-16s and the like are a gift for: surrendering an authentic foreign policy to the American cause, a free pass to use sovereign territory for US power projection, and as a means to support American arms industry.

While this is an exaggerated assumption that doesn't apply to all cases of arms transactions, it highlights the very problem with the jf-17 sales push: the type of nations looking to buy such an aircraft seldom do so based on merit alone. It is a balancing act consisting of which nation a buyer chooses to ally with, the benefits received from the seller's government (financial, economic, diplomatic), the advantages to local industry and, possibly last,how effective the aircraft is in filling it's intended role. The jf-17 may be very cost effective, but Pakistan does not offer a fellow third world nation any overarching protection against potential adversaries, nor does it have funds to invest in local economic projects; as such siding with Pakistan on a geopolitical level brings no advantages of any kind. 

The jf-17 sales pitch failed the day Pakistan was attached to the project. It may garner sales at some point, but to expect it to become a volume seller, it will require the Chinese to become active in global politics in the same mold as the Americans are today; at which point the Chinese and all the perks that come with doing business with them, will sell the aircraft. We should be satisfied with what the jf-17 is doing for the PAF, it is unfair to expect anymore.

Reactions: Positive Rating Positive Rating:
1 | Like Like:
14


----------



## MilSpec

Pfpilot said:


> In my opinion, a great portion of the blame also lies in our expectations. Arms deals to the third world aren't like a car sale, unless the Japanese government twists my arm and passively forces me to buy a Honda Civic, as a part of a wider deal in which they rebuild half my house, receive permission to land armed forces in my backyard and gain my support on most political issues and agreement to buy almost exclusively Japanese cars as a means to prop up their automotive industry. As a car buyer, I am not a slave to Japanese policies against other nations and am free to flip flop on which brand to give my business, without having to worry about loosing access to Civic parts and electricity to my house.
> 
> Money speaks above all else in arms purchases, but it does not do so at the expense of what a purchase entails for the buying nation. This is magnified in the case of third world nations, because many of these sales are sweeteners to higher level diplomatic and economic dealings and come with favorable financing terms, which are the price for the strings attached. The f-16 was such a success, not simply because it is a great fighter, but because, in the same mold as the mig-21 for the Soviets, it forms a significant part of the American global diplomacy. F-16s and the like are a gift for: surrendering an authentic foreign policy to the American cause, a free pass to use sovereign territory for US power projection, and as a means to support American arms industry.
> 
> While this is an exaggerated assumption that doesn't apply to all cases of arms transactions, it highlights the very problem with the jf-17 sales push: the type of nations looking to buy such an aircraft seldom do so based on merit alone. It is a balancing act consisting of which nation a buyer chooses to ally with, the benefits received from the seller's government (financial, economic, diplomatic), the advantages to local industry and, possibly last,how effective the aircraft is in filling it's intended role. The jf-17 may be very cost effective, but Pakistan does not offer a fellow third world nation any overarching protection against potential adversaries, nor does it have funds to invest in local economic projects; as such siding with Pakistan on a geopolitical level brings no advantages of any kind.
> 
> The jf-17 sales pitch failed the day Pakistan was attached to the project. It may garner sales at some point, but to expect it to become a volume seller, it will require the Chinese to become active in global politics in the same mold as the Americans are today; at which point the Chinese and all the perks that come with doing business with them, will sell the aircraft. We should be satisfied with what the jf-17 is doing for the PAF, it is unfair to expect anymore.



Excellent Post. If pakistan has identified the market : for example say south america of developing african countries, pakistan needs to make it's presence felt there. Trade missions, port calls, joint exercises, hosting leaders for military parades, humanitarian missions and nudge China to do the same. Once that happens, should use holistic approach not just with Jf17 but also with other ordinances.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Quwa

Pfpilot said:


> In my opinion, a great portion of the blame also lies in our expectations. Arms deals to the third world aren't like a car sale, unless the Japanese government twists my arm and passively forces me to buy a Honda Civic, as a part of a wider deal in which they rebuild half my house, receive permission to land armed forces in my backyard and gain my support on most political issues and agreement to buy almost exclusively Japanese cars as a means to prop up their automotive industry. As a car buyer, I am not a slave to Japanese policies against other nations and am free to flip flop on which brand to give my business, without having to worry about loosing access to Civic parts and electricity to my house.
> 
> Money speaks above all else in arms purchases, but it does not do so at the expense of what a purchase entails for the buying nation. This is magnified in the case of third world nations, because many of these sales are sweeteners to higher level diplomatic and economic dealings and come with favorable financing terms, which are the price for the strings attached. The f-16 was such a success, not simply because it is a great fighter, but because, in the same mold as the mig-21 for the Soviets, it forms a significant part of the American global diplomacy. F-16s and the like are a gift for: surrendering an authentic foreign policy to the American cause, a free pass to use sovereign territory for US power projection, and as a means to support American arms industry.
> 
> While this is an exaggerated assumption that doesn't apply to all cases of arms transactions, it highlights the very problem with the jf-17 sales push: the type of nations looking to buy such an aircraft seldom do so based on merit alone. It is a balancing act consisting of which nation a buyer chooses to ally with, the benefits received from the seller's government (financial, economic, diplomatic), the advantages to local industry and, possibly last,how effective the aircraft is in filling it's intended role. The jf-17 may be very cost effective, but Pakistan does not offer a fellow third world nation any overarching protection against potential adversaries, nor does it have funds to invest in local economic projects; as such siding with Pakistan on a geopolitical level brings no advantages of any kind.
> 
> The jf-17 sales pitch failed the day Pakistan was attached to the project. It may garner sales at some point, but to expect it to become a volume seller, it will require the Chinese to become active in global politics in the same mold as the Americans are today; at which point the Chinese and all the perks that come with doing business with them, will sell the aircraft. We should be satisfied with what the jf-17 is doing for the PAF, it is unfair to expect anymore.



Extremely well said. If I may add something, we need to be aware of the fact that Pakistan itself isn't a fully independent country, i.e. a country that values its own vital interests. We are a nation that took US drone strikes lying down and India's IWT violations bending. In fact, Pakistan might have had a much, *much* better shot selling JF-17s (and other arms) while being under US embargo, genuine governments abroad (e.g. Brazil) could at least be assured of Pakistan's seriousness in trying to build its own bridges (without piggybacking on the 'legitimacy' standards set by the US).

Pakistan would do exponentially better off being independent and considerate of its own vital interests. Will it upset the US and those like them, e.g. Britain, France, KSA, etc? Certainly. Will it earn Pakistan the genuine respect of the likes of China, Brazil, Sweden, Germany, South Africa, and many others? Definitely.

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## araz

Pfpilot said:


> In my opinion, a great portion of the blame also lies in our expectations. Arms deals to the third world aren't like a car sale, unless the Japanese government twists my arm and passively forces me to buy a Honda Civic, as a part of a wider deal in which they rebuild half my house, receive permission to land armed forces in my backyard and gain my support on most political issues and agreement to buy almost exclusively Japanese cars as a means to prop up their automotive industry. As a car buyer, I am not a slave to Japanese policies against other nations and am free to flip flop on which brand to give my business, without having to worry about loosing access to Civic parts and electricity to my house.
> 
> Money speaks above all else in arms purchases, but it does not do so at the expense of what a purchase entails for the buying nation. This is magnified in the case of third world nations, because many of these sales are sweeteners to higher level diplomatic and economic dealings and come with favorable financing terms, which are the price for the strings attached. The f-16 was such a success, not simply because it is a great fighter, but because, in the same mold as the mig-21 for the Soviets, it forms a significant part of the American global diplomacy. F-16s and the like are a gift for: surrendering an authentic foreign policy to the American cause, a free pass to use sovereign territory for US power projection, and as a means to support American arms industry.
> 
> While this is an exaggerated assumption that doesn't apply to all cases of arms transactions, it highlights the very problem with the jf-17 sales push: the type of nations looking to buy such an aircraft seldom do so based on merit alone. It is a balancing act consisting of which nation a buyer chooses to ally with, the benefits received from the seller's government (financial, economic, diplomatic), the advantages to local industry and, possibly last,how effective the aircraft is in filling it's intended role. The jf-17 may be very cost effective, but Pakistan does not offer a fellow third world nation any overarching protection against potential adversaries, nor does it have funds to invest in local economic projects; as such siding with Pakistan on a geopolitical level brings no advantages of any kind.
> 
> The jf-17 sales pitch failed the day Pakistan was attached to the project. It may garner sales at some point, but to expect it to become a volume seller, it will require the Chinese to become active in global politics in the same mold as the Americans are today; at which point the Chinese and all the perks that come with doing business with them, will sell the aircraft. We should be satisfied with what the jf-17 is doing for the PAF, it is unfair to expect anymore.


A really good and comprehensive response. I think one other drawback of the JFT is the lack of a Chinese engine. The day the Chinese cure that deficiency they will probably buy a few and then the sales may pick up. In the current scenario PAF with not having a Chinese engine will not satisfy buyers enough to make the sale. The rest I am really happy with the reply above. I think the above can be the basis of an article for the Board. *What are the deficiencies preventing the sale of JFT?* Since you have made the start you might as well finish it.
Regards
Araz

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## araz

Mark Sien said:


> Extremely well said. If I may add something, we need to be aware of the fact that Pakistan itself isn't a fully independent country, i.e. a country that values its own vital interests. We are a nation that took US drone strikes lying down and India's IWT violations bending. In fact, Pakistan might have had a much, *much* better shot selling JF-17s (and other arms) while being under US embargo, genuine governments abroad (e.g. Brazil) could at least be assured of Pakistan's seriousness in trying to build its own bridges (without piggybacking on the 'legitimacy' standards set by the US).
> 
> Pakistan would do exponentially better off being independent and considerate of its own vital interests. Will it upset the US and those like them, e.g. Britain, France, KSA, etc? Certainly. Will it earn Pakistan the genuine respect of the likes of China, Brazil, Sweden, Germany, South Africa, and many others? Definitely.


 
Mark Sien!
You are touching some very painful chords. That which you ask for is not possible from the people who are firstly of doubtful loyalty to pakistan, secondly of doubtful faith not only in Allah SWT but also in the capabilities of this great nation. Nothing like an external threat will bring this nation together and surely we will have to eat grass, but the end results would be freedom from slavery of the mind. We cant keep jumping from one lap to another like a Jigalo. We need to become men having some self respect , a national identity and most importantly faith in Allah SWT that provided we do everything for His(SWT) pleasure and in good faith He(SWT) has the power to turn a bad move into a good result..
I hate to say this but the capitulation of our land repeatedly to one or another external power by our Leaders including the military Junta is the saddest aspect of our history. We have repeatedly seen how low a self esteem our leadership including the military Junta have. It is this sense of remaining at ease which has caused our downfall, right from the decisions of 1948, to 1958 to 1962 and then post 9/11. We need Balls and guts and our leadership has repeatedly proven that it does not have any. Till we develop some we are not going anywhere.
Araz



Munir said:


> If you buy 34 years old adf f16's while you want to sell your brand new jf17's... Even an idiot would think twice buying your jf17. Surely those f16's are cheap and will be improved but what message did you send? It is not about f16's but bad marketing of your jf17. It is like France buying us f5 while trying to sell Rafales... But then again... Uk buys jsf while trying to decrease ef2000 as much as possible. The arabs are still buying ef2000 (which cannot even win against paf mlu f16's)... But Arabs have never bought anything based on logic.


 Munir.
An interesting thought process. Dont the two planes have different roles from one another? ie F16 for Hi and JFT for Lo of the Hi-Lo scenario. Regarding the EF, was it not vconceived as a cold war plane. the situation having changed and the next war having different requirements, the UK Government is buying F35s. I would say that the Arab logic is more to do with the preservation of their fiefs and inter Arab rivalries. The reason UAE will not consider EF is not because of its deficiencies but because Saudis have them. they would rather go for rafale. The problem is that the Rafale's current engines do not perform well in the hot air of the gulf and they wanted uprated engines which the french are reluctant to put on unless the UAE shares in the cosat of developement. this is the controversy as i have understood it. As a response to that the UAE has decided to go for more Bl. 60s or so I remember having read. The EFT v/s Rafale is from first hand knowledge.
Araz

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## Munir

Araz saheb, block 2 jf17 is pretty much dominating f16 adf in every field. While block 52 or latest mlu do well in high these adf are not even low at the moment. I consider block 2 as medium and a workhorse.

The idea of buying crap and selling jf17 is not only unwise in terms of marketing but it sounds stupid idea to me. There are limitations in terms of usage. I doubt that if next time not obl but someone else is targeted we could use these cheap more then three decades old planes. And who wants to wait till india gets all the data it needs to counter?


----------



## Windjammer

Pfpilot said:


> In my opinion, a great portion of the blame also lies in our expectations. Arms deals to the third world aren't like a car sale, unless the Japanese government twists my arm and passively forces me to buy a Honda Civic, as a part of a wider deal in which they rebuild half my house, receive permission to land armed forces in my backyard and gain my support on most political issues and agreement to buy almost exclusively Japanese cars as a means to prop up their automotive industry. As a car buyer, I am not a slave to Japanese policies against other nations and am free to flip flop on which brand to give my business, without having to worry about loosing access to Civic parts and electricity to my house.
> 
> Money speaks above all else in arms purchases, but it does not do so at the expense of what a purchase entails for the buying nation. This is magnified in the case of third world nations, because many of these sales are sweeteners to higher level diplomatic and economic dealings and come with favorable financing terms, which are the price for the strings attached. The f-16 was such a success, not simply because it is a great fighter, but because, in the same mold as the mig-21 for the Soviets, it forms a significant part of the American global diplomacy. F-16s and the like are a gift for: surrendering an authentic foreign policy to the American cause, a free pass to use sovereign territory for US power projection, and as a means to support American arms industry.
> 
> While this is an exaggerated assumption that doesn't apply to all cases of arms transactions, it highlights the very problem with the jf-17 sales push: the type of nations looking to buy such an aircraft seldom do so based on merit alone. It is a balancing act consisting of which nation a buyer chooses to ally with, the benefits received from the seller's government (financial, economic, diplomatic), the advantages to local industry and, possibly last,how effective the aircraft is in filling it's intended role. The jf-17 may be very cost effective, but Pakistan does not offer a fellow third world nation any overarching protection against potential adversaries, nor does it have funds to invest in local economic projects; as such siding with Pakistan on a geopolitical level brings no advantages of any kind.
> 
> The jf-17 sales pitch failed the day Pakistan was attached to the project. It may garner sales at some point, but to expect it to become a volume seller, it will require the Chinese to become active in global politics in the same mold as the Americans are today; at which point the Chinese and all the perks that come with doing business with them, will sell the aircraft. We should be satisfied with what the jf-17 is doing for the PAF, it is unfair to expect anymore.


A comprehensive insight sir, but then i ask myself, if the Chinese did well with their F-7s without being active in global politics and the likes of K-8 didn't fail while Pakistan is attached to it. Could it be that the issue may be related to JF-17 not being whole lot Chinese/Pakistani....after all many newmarket countries switched from Soviet hardware to Western technology. Having a Russian engine is like going back in time for them....just my two cents.

Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## ziaulislam

Windjammer said:


> A comprehensive insight sir, but then i ask myself, if the Chinese did well with their F-7s without being active in global politics and the likes of K-8 didn't fail while Pakistan is attached to it. Could it be that the issue may be related to JF-17 not being whole lot Chinese/Pakistani....after all many newmarket countries switched from Soviet hardware to Western technology. Having a Russian engine is like going back in time for them....just my two cents.


i think k-8s and f-7s were cheap and decent aircrafts. f-7 is still three times cheaper though no longer manufactured i think.
second globally air forces are on reduction. traditionl f-7/mig21 customers are opting not to keep any decent airforce. rather they are going for light aircrfts like K-8s


----------



## Umair Nawaz

Mark Sien said:


> Extremely well said. If I may add something, we need to be aware of the fact that Pakistan itself isn't a fully independent country, i.e. a country that values its own vital interests. We are a nation that took US drone strikes lying down and India's IWT violations bending. In fact, Pakistan might have had a much, *much* better shot selling JF-17s (and other arms) while being under US embargo, genuine governments abroad (e.g. Brazil) could at least be assured of Pakistan's seriousness in trying to build its own bridges (without piggybacking on the 'legitimacy' standards set by the US).
> 
> Pakistan would do exponentially better off being independent and considerate of its own vital interests. Will it upset the US and those like them, e.g. Britain, France, KSA, etc? Certainly. Will it earn Pakistan the genuine respect of the likes of China, Brazil, Sweden, Germany, South Africa, and many others? Definitely.


for that to happen they need to give up on america and american weapons.


----------



## Nishan-101

My Question is that why not 16 F-16s from Jordan? Why 13 of them??? Also any possibility of Jordan gaining license production or joining in JF-17s and K-8 program for local production along with KSA, Egypt, Libya and Algeria.


----------



## surya kiran

Nishan-101 said:


> My Question is that why not 16 F-16s from Jordan? Why 13 of them??? Also any possibility of Jordan gaining license production or joining in JF-17s and K-8 program for local production along with KSA, Egypt, Libya and Algeria.




And NISHAN is back! everybody calculators with khayali pulao out of your pockets.


----------



## Umair Nawaz

Nishan-101 said:


> My Question is that why not 16 F-16s from Jordan? Why 13 of them??? Also any possibility of Jordan gaining license production or joining in JF-17s and K-8 program for local production along with KSA, Egypt, Libya and Algeria.


tum phir a gya........

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## SBD-3

Haitham said:


> Pakistan needs to buy air superiority fighter not to buy old F-16


Something which can carry upto 6 AIMRAAMs,if required,is pretty much an air-superiority fighter........

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## MastanKhan

Pfpilot said:


> In my opinion, a great portion of the blame also lies in our expectations. Arms deals to the third world aren't like a car sale, unless the Japanese government twists my arm and passively forces me to buy a Honda Civic, as a part of a wider deal in which they rebuild half my house, receive permission to land armed forces in my backyard and gain my support on most political issues and agreement to buy almost exclusively Japanese cars as a means to prop up their automotive industry. As a car buyer, I am not a slave to Japanese policies against other nations and am free to flip flop on which brand to give my business, without having to worry about loosing access to Civic parts and electricity to my house.
> 
> Money speaks above all else in arms purchases, but it does not do so at the expense of what a purchase entails for the buying nation. This is magnified in the case of third world nations, because many of these sales are sweeteners to higher level diplomatic and economic dealings and come with favorable financing terms, which are the price for the strings attached. The f-16 was such a success, not simply because it is a great fighter, but because, in the same mold as the mig-21 for the Soviets, it forms a significant part of the American global diplomacy. F-16s and the like are a gift for: surrendering an authentic foreign policy to the American cause, a free pass to use sovereign territory for US power projection, and as a means to support American arms industry.
> 
> The jf-17 sales pitch failed the day Pakistan was attached to the project. It may garner sales at some point, but to expect it to become a volume seller, it will require the Chinese to become active in global politics in the same mold as the Americans are today; at which point the Chinese and all the perks that come with doing business with them, will sell the aircraft. We should be satisfied with what the jf-17 is doing for the PAF, it is unfair to expect anymore.


 

Hi,

I would say that the attachment of pakistan is an asset---an endorsment from PAF speaks a lot to all the countries that maybe a candidate for this aircraft. The JF17 is still in its development stage---most candidate nations would be looking for a capable aircraft with a dedicated BVR.

My thinking is that this aircraft was marketed too soon and the tactics used in presenting this aircraft were extremely cheap and un-professional.

This aircraft did not have a complete package to display---and fighter aircraft take a long time to sell. There are many a nation the size of pakistan, some smaller, some larger----and most of these nations would be considering this aircraft seriously in the next 2 to 3 years---because a complete picture of what is coming out would be available.

Weapons buying are not totally political decisions---there still has to be sales displays, sales brochures, still there would be sales associate making their pitch---you need them to display the wares and talk about the strenghts and what it can do for the end user---after sales service---availability of parts and training and upgrades----this is all a part of the sales and supply department.

Technicians would be made available, trainers would be made available, prior to delivery setup would be made available---it is all a matter of time---.

A lot of countries in africa don't want to deal with the u s of a----they don't see russia offering much ( too expensive to operate )---. Their only hope lies with china and pakistan---and all these countries that have shown a serious interest in the aircraft are eagerly waiting for the second batch.

Bottomline is that these countries don't have anywhere else to go---u s won't sell them---europe won't sell them---and when it falls between russia and china---china would come out a winner.

As for china----its geography does not need a JF17---but many a countries in africa and so america will be prime candidates.

Last but not the least----this aircraft was TOO EAGERLY offered as a TWO FOR ONE---. Regardless it being car sales, home sales, tank sales, fighter aircraft sales and gun sales political or non political---an excitement needs to be created amongst the perspective buyers----the art of selling has not changed---it takes two people----one who is a seller---one who is a buyer---.

You need to create the desire---you need to create the excitement---you need to demonstrate what the aircraft can do for you----you need to show what changes it is going to bring in your image---you also need to sell the cost factor---you also need to sell upon the changes that it will bring to their image----you also need to sell on the cost of ownership---strike capabilities---air superiority---reliability---short turn around time---easy learning curve---training and all the support that is available.

First sell them on what it can do---and then take it away from them---make them eager---make them desire your aircraft---make them salivate----let them know that you know that they cannot get anything close to it from anyone else----but don't insult them---they will come to you when the time is right.

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## Oldman1

F16 taking on an Eurofighter.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## araz

Munir said:


> Araz saheb, block 2 jf17 is pretty much dominating f16 adf in every field. While block 52 or latest mlu do well in high these adf are not even low at the moment. I consider block 2 as medium and a workhorse.
> 
> The idea of buying crap and selling jf17 is not only unwise in terms of marketing but it sounds stupid idea to me. There are limitations in terms of usage. I doubt that if next time not obl but someone else is targeted we could use these cheap more then three decades old planes. And who wants to wait till india gets all the data it needs to counter?


So Why in your view has PAF bought these planes? Following you fairly closely i have noticed that you have gone 180degrees on your earlier arguments. What do you know that we dont know and would you be able to share it with us?
Regards
Araz


----------



## nomi007

in my opinion paf policy is realist to purchase 2nd hand stuff from west 
due to poor economic conditions and maintaining new stuff is also very costly


----------



## Indus Falcon

araz said:


> So Why in your view has PAF bought these planes? Following you fairly closely i have noticed that you have gone *360degrees* on your earlier arguments. What do you know that we dont know and would you be able to share it with us?
> Regards
> Araz



I think you meant 180?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Windjammer



Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Munir

araz said:


> So Why in your view has PAF bought these planes? Following you fairly closely i have noticed that you have gone 180degrees on your earlier arguments. What do you know that we dont know and would you be able to share it with us?
> Regards
> Araz



If you are so sure of your position then please explain what the added value is to marketing of jf17...
And do explain where you see a 180 degree turn...


----------



## araz

araz


Munir said:


> If you are so sure of your position then please explain what the added value is to marketing of jf17...
> And do explain where you see a 180 degree turn...


Munir.
In my view marketing of JFT is an entirely different issue to buying the 16s because of the different function of the planes ie hi vs lo. They are still two different platforms of different size and therefore use in PAF is different.
As to the 180 thing, in the beginning you were all for the F16s bought from Jordan, and now you seem to have changed your opinion. I am just inquisitive as to whether this change of heart was brought along by information that you might have or what else has changed your mind.
If it is any consolation I also agree that the marketing of JFT should be dealt with by experts rather than PAF Pilots/engineers. I also think we wont get much sales without the JFT having WS13.It is an absolute must.
araz


----------



## Donatello

Whatever the case, JF-17 needs to be inducted in PAF first and foremost. We don't have a full infrastructure for it in Pakistan, we don't have enough pilots since F-16s have too increased in number, how are we suppose to sell and offer support to foreign customers of JF-17? Selling is one thing, but providing technical support for million dollar jets is another ball game. Let's say Zimbabwe bought JF-17, what kind of support would PAF offer? It is already stretched thin in accommodating the jets at home, sending personal to foreign nations would be a mammoth task.

JF-17 should be inducted in PAF. Keep going to airshows, no one is stopping you from doing that. But don't be hell bent on getting orders as of yet. First mature the platform and once nations see the advantage they will automatically come to you.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## TOPGUN

Donatello said:


> Whatever the case, JF-17 needs to be inducted in PAF first and foremost. We don't have a full infrastructure for it in Pakistan, we don't have enough pilots since F-16s have too increased in number, how are we suppose to sell and offer support to foreign customers of JF-17? Selling is one thing, but providing technical support for million dollar jets is another ball game. Let's say Zimbabwe bought JF-17, what kind of support would PAF offer? It is already stretched thin in accommodating the jets at home, sending personal to foreign nations would be a mammoth task.
> 
> JF-17 should be inducted in PAF. Keep going to airshows, no one is stopping you from doing that. But don't be hell bent on getting orders as of yet. First mature the platform and once nations see the advantage they will automatically come to you.





I couldn't agree with you more my brother thx for shinning the light ...


----------



## Munir

Araz,
I do not think one makes a good move by buying f16's build in the 80's with less technology then we can produce right now in the form of jf17. I would not mind buying block 52 when you say somehting like high low but this is something ele. At the moment these adf are not near the mlu'ed planes we have. These planes have been used in adf roles by usaf and jordan. Looking at the planes i would not be that happy as many others. And i have been writing a long time ago about the status of jordanian f16's... So there is no 180 or 360. I am consistent. So where is the high in these 30+ years old f16's with only adf upgrade? Even if upgraded to mlu5 then just tell me if it was worth the costs.

Donatello writes it perfectly. Stick to your plane. Improve it. Now you beg for half a squadron rusted shit and expects others to believe they should go for lo that you skipped! That sounds illogical to me.


I am glad we agree about who should market the jf17...

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Donatello

Munir said:


> Araz,
> I do not think one makes a good move by buying f16's build in the 80's with less technology then we can produce right now in the form of jf17. I would not mind buying block 52 when you say somehting like high low but this is something ele. At the moment these adf are not near the mlu'ed planes we have. These planes have been used in adf roles by usaf and jordan. Looking at the planes i would not be that happy as many others. And i have been writing a long time ago about the status of jordanian f16's... So there is no 180 or 360. I am consistent. So where is the high in these 30+ years old f16's with only adf upgrade? Even if upgraded to mlu5 then just tell me if it was worth the costs.
> 
> Donatello writes it perfectly. Stick to your plane. Improve it. Now you beg for half a squadron rusted shit and expects others to believe they should go for lo that you skipped! That sounds illogical to me.
> 
> 
> I am glad we agree about who should market the jf17...



How good is current JF-17 compared to these F-16 ADFs, in your opinion?


----------



## VCheng

Munir said:


> Donatello writes it perfectly. Stick to your plane. Improve it. Now you beg for half a squadron rusted shit and expects others to believe they should go for lo that you skipped! That sounds illogical to me.



Illogical? Not if you consider the possibility that the JF-17 was over-hyped and not as good as this "rusted shit".


----------



## elitepilot09

Listen, fact of the matter is that potential customers will see Pakistan's acquisition of these old F-16's as a big negative in terms of Pakistan's satisfaction with the JF-17. You can certainly argue that the ADFs were just a stop-gap measure employed by the PAF to get the Thunder up to speed.

On another note, before Pakistan keeps forcing the JF-17 down the throats of its potential customers, it should mature the platform and incorporate some of the basics which Air Forces around the world now look for... ie. 2 seat version, aerial refuelling capability, advanced EW suite, 9 instead of 7 hardpoints, a larger combat radius etc. (some of these are going to be introduced in the block 2 and 3 configurations)

*As far as I'm concerned, the PAF shed the light on the JF-17 too damn early. It should have only been introduced to defence exhibitions and major presentations around the world this year and once a good number of features which I have underlined above were implemented on to the aircraft. I have a very very strong feeling that these shortcomings are why China hasn't inducted this fighter in its fleet. The resume of this plane would have ben much more convincing, powerful and dangerous once a super power had it actively invovled in its Air Force. *


----------



## Munir

elitepilot09 said:


> Listen, fact of the matter is that potential customers will see Pakistan's acquisition of these old F-16's as a big negative in terms of Pakistan's satisfaction with the JF-17. You can certainly argue that the ADFs were just a stop-gap measure employed by the PAF to get the Thunder up to speed.
> 
> On another note, before Pakistan keeps forcing the JF-17 down the throats of its potential customers, it should mature the platform and incorporate some of the basics which Air Forces around the world now look for... ie. 2 seat version, aerial refuelling capability, advanced EW suite, 9 instead of 7 hardpoints, a larger combat radius etc. (some of these are going to be introduced in the block 2 and 3 configurations)
> 
> *As far as I'm concerned, the PAF shed the light on the JF-17 too damn early. It should have only been introduced to defence exhibitions and major presentations around the world this year and once a good number of features which I have underlined above were implemented on to the aircraft. I have a very very strong feeling that these shortcomings are why China hasn't inducted this fighter in its fleet. The resume of this plane would have ben much more convincing, powerful and dangerous once a super power had it actively invovled in its Air Force. *



Your idea is comparable with that sweden would have skipped the a/b version and general dynamics would ave waited till they could sell c/d.. There is time needed to mature.

The issue is a lot more like zardari should have stayed out of this project...



VCheng said:


> Illogical? Not if you consider the possibility that the JF-17 was over-hyped and not as good as this "rusted shit".


as an engineer i think you are wrong on that


----------



## Quwa

Umair Nawaz said:


> for that to happen they need to give up on america and american weapons.


But dependence on American weapons isn't the actual cause behind the situation, it's a symptom. 

If Pakistan was a country with more money with real industrial and technological R&D capabilities, it need not depend on American weapons, it'd develop its own (or in partnership with others). But for that to happen the country needs sincere, visionary and brave leadership. We don't have leadership, we have custodianship.


----------



## raazh

AoA, I dont know why you guys are getting frustrated on the F16 purchase or the lack of JF17 exports. I believe both these planes are in different phases of their life in PAF.

F16 is already a mature plateform and PAF has enough experience to juice it to the max in every role. We have all the relevant training, operations, servicing and support facilities related to this plane embeded in the Force and it is easiest to scale them as the sqds increase. Plus it matches with the PAF vision and strategy to have a 75~100 nos of this Multirole beast and how to use it when the need arises. These new used purchases enchance our fighting capability on Plug and Play basis in real time. Yes, the status of Jordanian F16's could be a question mark but I am sure they will be upgraded asap.

Now JF17 is in a totaly different development/life phase at the moment. It is still undergoing weapons testing, training, operational SOP development, deployment strategies, staff and pilot development etc etc .. a million things to go till PAF is confident to say that YES now we know how to do a XYZ mission with this JF17. This by no way means that JF17 is a dud or does not match our requirements. It just MEANS THAT WE ARE NOT THERE YET WHERE JF17 IS A THUNDEROUS THREAT for enemies. It will take some time before all the weapons are integrated and the rest of the planned upgrades along with training/experience put this plane in a lethal threat zone. I mean how can a modern plane with standoff loads for Air, Ground, Sea and Radition targets not be a threat in every situation ??

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## nomi007




----------



## Indus Falcon

nomi007 said:


>


Gun Port


----------



## VCheng

Munir said:


> as an engineer i think you are wrong on that



Based on what? Technical specifications? Performance? The reality of the JF-17 is far less than the claims, thus far. May be after development it will rise to its hype.


----------



## Informant

VCheng said:


> Based on what? Technical specifications? Performance? The reality of the JF-17 is far less than the claims, thus far. May be after development it will rise to its hype.



It is everything it is claimed to be and everything we want from it.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## VCheng

Informant said:


> It is everything it is claimed to be and everything we want from it.



So says the hype.

What is the comparison with these F-16-ADFs?


----------



## Informant

VCheng said:


> So says the hype.
> 
> What is the comparison with these F-16-ADFs?



I will ask the right people, rest assured according to them the Thunder is more than they could have hoped for. 

My amateur opinion is that F-16 has a solid ground crew/infrastructure in place to accommodate them along with pilot officers and the training. ADF F-16s will relieve the other frontline F-16s used in war on terror. Thus with these we achieve more or less a squadron of better prepped jets for the Eastern sector.


----------



## nomi007

Abu Nasar said:


> Gun Port


ap ko deha jata hai qmobile e440


----------



## Indus Falcon

nomi007 said:


> ap ko deha jata hai qmobile e440


NO thanks! Ap ko hi mubarak hoe!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Munir

VCheng said:


> Based on what? Technical specifications? Performance? The reality of the JF-17 is far less than the claims, thus far. May be after development it will rise to its hype.



sat in both. talked to both teams. So how do you come to your conclusion?


----------



## VCheng

Munir said:


> sat in both. talked to both teams. So how do you come to your conclusion?



Let's talk about actual specifications and performance for a better comparison, if we could.


----------



## Munir

VCheng said:


> Let's talk about actual specifications and performance for a better comparison, if we could.



I am not going to provide you any data. You did not asnwer my question. Let us close any discussion.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## VCheng

Munir said:


> I am not going to provide you any data. You did not asnwer my question. Let us close any discussion.



Sure. There is no evidence to consider the hype about JF-17 as true. Let us see if and when that is ever realized. No rush.


----------



## Munir

There is no evidence on your side.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## VCheng

Munir said:


> There is no evidence on your side.



The claims made need to proven by actual demonstrated performance at some point, no the other way around, Sir. At present, with the current engine and avionics, it will be a while yet, it seems.


----------



## elitepilot09

VCheng said:


> The claims made need to proven by actual demonstrated performance at some point, no the other way around, Sir. At present, with the current engine and avionics, it will be a while yet, it seems.



First, what makes you believe that a few pundits like us on this board will be given the sort of information that you're looking for? I don't even understand what exactly you're wanting either... But before you think that this may be a stalemate, lets consider a few things:

While I agree that the F-16 is a formidable aircraft which has served us well, you have to remember that these ADFs were made in 1981 for Gods sake. Their PW-220's have had extensive flying hours and these jets are nimble... but without a doubt still kicking. These F-16's have not gone through the MLU process and therefore are inferior to the JF-17... how? Well, *on paper *its avionics and radar (KLJ-7v2) is very much comparable to the APG-68 in specification and size while the ADF only carries the older APG-66. As far as the engine is concerned, I don't know about you, but I'll take a new RD-93 over a 33 year old PW-220 any day.

Fact of the matter is that you'll never know the actual comparison between the ADF and the JF-17, but on paper the Thunder blk2 has the advantage... until the ADF undergoes the MLU process (which I hope it will soon). 

So then why did we opt for old F-16's over JF-17s? I truly believe that the low price is what attracted the PAF. We saw that a BVR platform which is a fraction of the cost of a new JF-17 (which, mind you, is already relatively cheaper than 4th gen aircraft) is available to us and we jumped on it. And hopefully, once we've invested in it as much as we would a standard JF-17 by sending it to TAI for MLU, it will be a fighter equivelent to the Blk40/42 standard, which is superior to the JF-17 in its current stage.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## doritos

If you ( each state looking for multirole fighters ) can buy MIG 35 or JF 17 why would you get JF 17


----------



## Indus Falcon

doritos said:


> If you ( each state looking for multirole fighters ) can buy MIG 35 or JF 17 why would you get JF 17



You'd have to be special kind of stupid to buy a Mig35. You'd probably buy a flanker derivative NOT a Mig.

But then buying Russian means, you can't leave it in the sun for too long, (it doesn't like getting tanned) the electronics start frying like the indian MKI's. Spares, reliability, availability (on the flight line) all become issues. Better off buying Korean T50

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Quwa

doritos said:


> If you ( each state looking for multirole fighters ) can buy MIG 35 or JF 17 why would you get JF 17


...and who has a firm order for MiG-35s?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## ziaulislam

i think PAF chief was clear when he said that we got a high capability at a very small fraction of price we could have got ay fourth gen aircraft.
secondly it was very possible that a third country might have financed it, seeing the tarditional relationships between nawaz and saudi arabia
*lastly, i am no expert but these aircrafts even though manufactured in 80s were in storage for quiet some time and even less used during their Jordanian life, so PAF chief is most likley correct saying that they have pretty much life left on them.*
Jordon got them very cheap after peace deal with Israel, Jordon isnt a oil rich econmy i think it was evident that they wanted to decrease the size of their air force to a more manageable small size
laslty, how many MLU kits did we brought, there was news that we brought spare of 14? if the MLUs are already ordered than i think getting those f-16 at 1/4 of cost JF-17 isnt a bad deal, especially when it instantly boast you capability.
_i think the real question is the price and financing of those aircrafts, without this info we cant judge whether the deal was very good or not._


----------



## Quwa

Also, I doubt the PAF would be adverse to the idea of seeing its F-7s swapped out for F-16s over the next 3-5 years.


----------



## VCheng

elitepilot09 said:


> First, what makes you believe that a few pundits like us on this board will be given the sort of information that you're looking for? I don't even understand what exactly you're wanting either... But before you think that this may be a stalemate, lets consider a few things:
> 
> While I agree that the F-16 is a formidable aircraft which has served us well, you have to remember that these ADFs were made in 1981 for Gods sake. Their PW-220's have had extensive flying hours and these jets are nimble... but without a doubt still kicking. These F-16's have not gone through the MLU process and therefore are inferior to the JF-17... how? Well, *on paper *its avionics and radar (KLJ-7v2) is very much comparable to the APG-68 in specification and size while the ADF only carries the older APG-66. As far as the engine is concerned, I don't know about you, but I'll take a new RD-93 over a 33 year old PW-220 any day.
> 
> Fact of the matter is that you'll never know the actual comparison between the ADF and the JF-17, but on paper the Thunder blk2 has the advantage... until the ADF undergoes the MLU process (which I hope it will soon).
> 
> So then why did we opt for old F-16's over JF-17s? I truly believe that the low price is what attracted the PAF. We saw that a BVR platform which is a fraction of the cost of a new JF-17 (which, mind you, is already relatively cheaper than 4th gen aircraft) is available to us and we jumped on it. And hopefully, once we've invested in it as much as we would a standard JF-17 by sending it to TAI for MLU, it will be a fighter equivelent to the Blk40/42 standard, which is superior to the JF-17 in its current stage.



Thank you for that post, but I would be willing to wager that that 33 year old PW and airframe can put a pair of missiles backed by decent avionics and enough fuel to do the job from brakes off to 40,000 feet faster than the JF-17, or put twice as much ordnance in ground targets with greater accuracy, other things being equal.

Great as the JF-17 is, it has a weak engine, not enough internal fuel and cobbled together avionics. It will take some time to develop into a platform fit for this century rather than the last.

No offence intended or implied, Sir.


----------



## Rajput_Pakistani

VCheng said:


> Thank you for that post, but I would be willing to wager that that 33 year old PW and airframe can put a pair of missiles backed by decent avionics and enough fuel to do the job from brakes off to 40,000 feet faster than the JF-17, or put twice as much ordnance in ground targets with greater accuracy, other things being equal.
> 
> Great as the JF-17 is, it has a weak engine, not enough internal fuel and cobbled together avionics. It will take some time to develop into a platform fit for this century rather than the last.
> 
> No offence intended or implied, Sir.



Your posts are not backed by any concrete logic. Why are you comparing a MMRCA with a Light weight Fighter? Both classes are different, so no comparison.
There is one thing which is called US Military Aid. USA will never allow its funds to be transferred to other programs, as many posters here are trying to say, that what if we have spent this money to produce more JF17s, which is behind schedule due to lack of finances. 

PAF guys out there are more smart then any one of us keyboard intellectuals. No one here knows, where do Thunders fits in the grand operational objectives of PAF? One thing is for sure that F16s MLU are for different role, Block52 for different. The squadron raised from Ex-Jordanian F16 may be used to peace time ops, while saving critical hours on expensive Block52. We also dont know yet what PAF is intending to future upgrade of these planes.

We also know one thing for sure, that our Mirage/F7 fleet is fast depleting. So what if we get 13 used F16s, which even in current state are far superior to Mirages and F7s?

I dont think anything is wrong here. Finance of projects with China and projects with USA are completely different heads. We cant intermingle them even if we want too.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Munir

VCheng said:


> Thank you for that post, but I would be willing to wager that that 33 year old PW and airframe can put a pair of missiles backed by decent avionics and enough fuel to do the job from brakes off to 40,000 feet faster than the JF-17, or put twice as much ordnance in ground targets with greater accuracy, other things being equal.
> 
> Great as the JF-17 is, it has a weak engine, not enough internal fuel and cobbled together avionics. It will take some time to develop into a platform fit for this century rather than the last.
> 
> No offence intended or implied, Sir.



Maybe you live to long in the USA but do remember what happened in 71... Why the "F" PAF needed to fly asap Mig19 copies over the himalaya? And what happened after Pak showed it had nukes just like Israel or India? You have no idea about risk, dependency or even costs. No... You come up with decades old rust being better then... I think we do not have to go in details cause at this level there is a difference in mind set.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## VCheng

Munir said:


> Maybe you live to long in the USA but do remember what happened in 71... Why the "F" PAF needed to fly asap Mig19 copies over the himalaya? And what happened after Pak showed it had nukes just like Israel or India? You have no idea about risk, dependency or even costs. No... You come up with decades old rust being better then... I think we do not have to go in details cause at this level there is a difference in mind set.



Let's talk actual evidence, not claims, if you could, please.

(I have an idea of what I speak.)


----------



## nomi007

paf pilot in ex-rjaf f-16s cuming way to pakistan


----------



## Munir

nomi007 said:


> paf pilot in ex-rjaf f-16s cuming way to pakistan



These are not Jordanians but PAF from the beginning. So they are not cOming to Pakistan but are already part of PAF.

Vcheng, just put me on your ignore list. I just did the same to you so we do not waste any bandwith about this or that without you going into facts. You do not provide any facts but based on nothing say that F16ADF is better then Block 2 JF17. Just had contact with some sources and they confirm what I said. Case closed.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## VCheng

Munir said:


> These are not Jordanians but PAF from the beginning. So they are not cOming to Pakistan but are already part of PAF.
> 
> Vcheng, just put me on your ignore list. I just did the same to you so we do not waste any bandwith about this or that without you going into facts. You do not provide any facts but based on nothing say that F16ADF is better then Block 2 JF17. Just had contact with some sources and they confirm what I said. Case closed.



Sure, suit yourself. With the present engine, the JF-17 is not going anywhere fast. Literally.

(BTW, this classic "Trust us, we know what we are doing" attitude belongs in the last century, and can work only so far in this changed world. Time to wake up! Deeds and evidence based conclusions work much better.)


----------



## Indus Falcon

Mark Sien said:


> ...and who has a firm order for MiG-35s?


A special kinda stupid!


----------



## airmarshal

My question is why Jordan sold them? 

Are going to buy new planes or these were being retired?


----------



## araz

Munir said:


> These are not Jordanians but PAF from the beginning. So they are not cOming to Pakistan but are already part of PAF.
> 
> Vcheng, just put me on your ignore list. I just did the same to you so we do not waste any bandwith about this or that without you going into facts. You do not provide any facts but based on nothing say that F16ADF is better then Block 2 JF17. Just had contact with some sources and they confirm what I said. Case closed.


Munir.
Then why do you think PAF bought them. I am only asking because if what you are saying is the truth(and I have no reason to state otherwise) it does not make any sense to buy planes which are likely to become a liability and a danger for our pilots. And I honestly dont know the answer. Even as a deal it is not meaty enough for someone to make money out of it. Help appreciated.
Araz


----------



## Munir

araz said:


> Munir.
> Then why do you think PAF bought them. I am only asking because if what you are saying is the truth(and I have no reason to state otherwise) it does not make any sense to buy planes which are likely to become a liability and a danger for our pilots. And I honestly dont know the answer. Even as a deal it is not meaty enough for someone to make money out of it. Help appreciated.
> Araz



It is cheaper then JF17... Just do the math. You know the price of JF17. If you know the price of these planes then it is extremely cheap to go for replacing F7p with F16. And since they paid for enough MLU packets (which already are bought) it still is cheap. So in essence it is cash management like no other. But without MLU it is not that good. That is what I said.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Bilal.

Munir said:


> It is cheaper then JF17... Just do the math. You know the price of JF17. If you know the price of these planes then it is extremely cheap to go for replacing F7p with F16. And since they paid for enough MLU packets (which already are bought) it still is cheap. So in essence it is cash management like no other. But without MLU it is not that good. That is what I said.



So should we hope to see them go through same mlu upgrade standard as or other F-16s, an/apg-68v 9 and other block-52 avionics?


----------



## Munir

Looking at the number of bought MLU kits...

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Bilal.

Munir said:


> Looking at the number of bought MLU kits...



That would leave us with 2 spare kits... Wonder what we'll do with those...


----------



## Munir

Handy when a few are no longer working as expected. Spares. Or wait to get two more block15... I think we will see two more ot they are already in those "13"...

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## VCheng

araz said:


> Munir.
> Then why do you think PAF bought them. I am only asking because if what you are saying is the truth(and I have no reason to state otherwise) it does not make any sense to buy planes which are likely to become a liability and a danger for our pilots. And I honestly dont know the answer. Even as a deal it is not meaty enough for someone to make money out of it. Help appreciated.
> Araz



It is not just price as is being mention by Munir above. It takes a fair mind to concede that even these old F-16s offer better performance than the new JF-17s in most parameters. The pricing is only icing on the cake.


----------



## Donatello

VCheng said:


> It is not just price as is being mention by Munir above. It takes a fair mind to concede that even these old F-16s offer better performance than the new JF-17s in most parameters. The pricing is only icing on the cake.



No they don't. Jf-17 with BVR will be a more of 1:1 match, considering the old radar these F-16s have. There have been numerous interviews by PAF personal indicating the superiority of JF-17 over the BLK15 F-16s.

Now please stop parroting the same narrative here. This ain't Pakwheels.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## khanasifm

Metrics

Specifications · Lockheed Martin
Factsheets : F-16 Aircraft Specifications

FYI Thrust to Weight ratios, wing loading and Fuel fractions are always good measures and calculated at normal take off weights not full external / take off weights , you can but optimum performance is normal take off wt. 

5920 lbs / Normal take off wt i think its close to 11+ KG lets say 24000 5920/24000 =.245 or .25
JF17 5134/20000 = .256 or .26

Ideally .28 or better is new trend 4+ Gen

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## araz

Munir said:


> It is cheaper then JF17... Just do the math. You know the price of JF17. If you know the price of these planes then it is extremely cheap to go for replacing F7p with F16. And since they paid for enough MLU packets (which already are bought) it still is cheap. So in essence it is cash management like no other. But without MLU it is not that good. That is what I said.


fine now we are on the same page. Thanks for explaining. 
Araz


----------



## araz

Donatello said:


> No they don't. Jf-17 with BVR will be a more of 1:1 match, considering the old radar these F-16s have. There have been numerous interviews by PAF personal indicating the superiority of JF-17 over the BLK15 F-16s.
> 
> Now please stop parroting the same narrative here. This ain't Pakwheels.


Because it it a heavier and bigger plane with capacity to carry more ammo probablyit has advantages in these parameters. However as to radar range and avionics , in its current unupgraded state IT would not be better than JFT. F16s would alwayz be looked forward to by PAF because it of established infrastructure, trained pilots and established operative use. It has mqny advantages over JFT. in 5yrs whether that would still be the case needs to be seen.
I dont know much about Jordan but I am assuming that these anes have been unused for some time which is why they looked a bit worse for wear
A bit of TLC from PAF and they will be back to their mean old selves. Desert is good in the sense that things do not rust which is whyAMARCis in a desert 8n Nevada.
Araz


----------



## Donatello

araz said:


> Because it it a heavier and bigger plane with capacity to carry more ammo probablyit has advantages in these parameters. However as to radar range and avionics , in its current unupgraded state IT would not be better than JFT. F16s would alwayz be looked forward to by PAF because it of established infrastructure, trained pilots and established operative use. It has mqny advantages over JFT. in 5yrs whether that would still be the case needs to be seen.
> I dont know much about Jordan but I am assuming that these anes have been unused for some time which is why they looked a bit worse for wear
> A bit of TLC from PAF and they will be back to their mean old selves. Desert is good in the sense that things do not rust which is whyAMARCis in a desert 8n Nevada.
> Araz



I was merely referring to the unsubstantial claims by VCheng. JF-17 is marred by delays. If we can get used F-16s and put them through MLU we can get another 15 years out of them. We don't have to wait another 10 years for JF-17 to arrive in numbers. Prudence suggests that PAF should buy enough spares and ammo as well so in case sanctions arrive, these jets can still fly. I am against purchasing offensive USA equipment whether used or not, because if they stop support for whatever reason, we will be in a quagmire. However, if USA is true to mending ways then they will ensure Pakistan remains happy. Just like this Jordanian f-16 case where DSCA wasn't informed, at least not publicly and the waiver for transfer coming from the president.

If i can have another 20-30 f-16s withing 2 years, that's huge. Because procuring JF-17s in those numbers will take more time, plus there are ageing Mirage III/V that need to be replaced.

Lastly, PAF should enhance it's partnership with TAI now since the number of F-16s has increased two fold......so might be a good idea to keep those spare parts rolling in and stock up.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## VCheng

araz said:


> Because it it a heavier and bigger plane with capacity to carry more ammo probablyit has advantages in these parameters. However as to radar range and avionics , in its current unupgraded state IT would not be better than JFT. F16s would alwayz be looked forward to by PAF because it of established infrastructure, trained pilots and established operative use. It has mqny advantages over JFT. in 5yrs whether that would still be the case needs to be seen.
> I dont know much about Jordan but I am assuming that these anes have been unused for some time which is why they looked a bit worse for wear
> A bit of TLC from PAF and they will be back to their mean old selves. Desert is good in the sense that things do not rust which is whyAMARCis in a desert 8n Nevada.
> Araz



Let us present numbers rather than making unsupported claims. I still maintain that even the F-16ADF can intercept and deliver ordnance better than the JF-17 in its present form of development with a weak engine, poor internal fuel capacity and cobbled up electronics, as yet unproven. Therefore, getting these 13 planes is a good decision, and only goes to show just how the claims of JF-17 superiority are just that - claims.


----------



## araz

VCheng said:


> Let us present numbers rather than making unsupported claims. I still maintain that even the F-16ADF can intercept and deliver ordnance better than the JF-17 in its present form of development with a weak engine, poor internal fuel capacity and cobbled up electronics, as yet unproven. Therefore, getting these 13 planes is a good decision, and only goes to show just how the claims of JF-17 superiority are just that - claims.


OK. So be it. Since you are starting an argument in support of F 16 ADF why dont you present your data and any comparative analysis and then we can discuss this on this very thread. I will await your detailed analysis and then we rock and roll. At some stage I would have to say we are comparing two different weight classes and some equation has to be taken into account to marry this disparity. However since you seem hell bent on projecting your point of view so be it!!
Araz

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## VCheng

araz said:


> OK. So be it. Since you are starting an argument in support of F 16 ADF why dont you present your data and any comparative analysis and then we can discuss this on this very thread. I will await your detailed analysis and then we rock and roll. At some stage I would have to say we are comparing two different weight classes and some equation has to be taken into account to marry this disparity. However since you seem hell bent on projecting your point of view so be it!!
> Araz



Sure, let's start off with some basics:

*Engine: *
F-16 ADF: F100-PW-220, 14,590/23,770 lb.
JF-17: Klimov RD-93 11,510/19,000 lb.

*Maximum speed:* 
F-16 ADF: Mach 2.05
JF-1: Mach 1.6

*Service ceiling:*
F-16 ADF: 55,000 ft. 
JF-17: 55,500 ft.

*Maximum range:*
F-16 ADF: 2400 miles.
JF-17: 1880 miles

*Weights*: 
F-16 ADF: 16,285 pounds empty, 25,281 pounds combat, 37,500 pounds maximum takeoff.
JF-17: 14,520 empty, 20,062 pounds combat, 27,300 pounds maximum takeoff.


----------



## Chak Bamu

VCheng said:


> Let us present numbers rather than making unsupported claims. I still maintain that even the F-16ADF can intercept and deliver ordnance better than the JF-17 in its present form of development with a weak engine, poor internal fuel capacity and cobbled up electronics, as yet unproven. Therefore, getting these 13 planes is a good decision, and only goes to show just how the claims of JF-17 superiority are just that - claims.



1. Fuel Capacity / Range: You need to keep things in perspective. What is the average width of Pakistan? Is JF-17 meant for / supposed to attack targets deep inside enemy territory? What roles could stand-off weapons play? You still think that Range matters? Think about the acronym 'ADF' - you still think range matters as much as you say it does in the context that you are implying?

2. Weak Engine: The adjective 'weak' is relative to the air-frame in which it is installed. You probably mean to say that TWR of JF-17 is less than F-16. You are focusing on 'weak' engine and claiming that JF-17 is at a serious disadvantage in climb performance. Do you have any figures / benchmarks to show that a yawning gap exists and that it actually matters practically in presence of AWACS, Ground-based Radar network, etc...?

Are you concerned that an F-16 might turn on a JF-17? Does IAF fly F-16? If a bunch of JF-17s are sent to intercept an incoming sortie, how could their climb performance be a decided disadvantage? Suppose a party of JF-17 are on a CAS mission, how would their climb performance doom them? Does having a high wing-loading mean something here?

While you have not said this, let me also address TWR as it relates to WVR combat. Yes TWR matters, and yet JF-17 reportedly conserves its energy better than an F-16 in a turn. That is an advantage bestowed by its air-frame design. Do you think that designers were stupid when they knew that F-16 was something of a benchmark, and that JF-17 was likely to encounter flankers, etc...?

3. Speed: First, no one actually knows the max speed of JF-17. It is expected to be less than Mach 2. But achieving top speed requires careful planning for optimum performance at a certain altitude. Exigencies of warfare are likely to dictate that nobody gets the leisure to attain top speed and make it actually count. Mirage is a Mach 2+ fighter. How many PAF pilots have actually taken it to Mach 2+? Throwing numbers around does not make an argument in itself.

4. Every fighter had 'cobbled up' electronics until they proved themselves. Please suggest ways and means of demonstrating that such electronics pass or fail a certain threshold test. Can you say with any confidence that you can give a definitive answer? How can claims be turned into facts? Can you say? Should PAF go hunting some planes for you to know that claims are true and that performance is up to mark? F-16 has kills in its record - good. Now should someone start a war to see whether or not JF-17 is as good as claimed? If PAF says that JF-17 has met and surpassed expectations, a cynic like you would not buy this statement. Is that JF-17's fault?

5. You fail to appreciate the role of JF-17, the scope of its operation, and the compromises that were necessary for its design. You just want to compare it with F-16 and declare a victor based on your whims. Read Munir's explanation again if you do not get it.

Reactions: Like Like:
11


----------



## araz

VCheng said:


> Sure, let's start off with some basics:
> 
> *Engine: *
> F-16 ADF: F100-PW-220, 14,590/23,770 lb.
> JF-17: Klimov RD-93 11,510/19,000 lb.
> 
> *Maximum speed:*
> F-16 ADF: Mach 2.05
> JF-1: Mach 1.6
> 
> *Service ceiling:*
> F-16 ADF: 55,000 ft.
> JF-17: 55,500 ft.
> 
> *Maximum range:*
> F-16 ADF: 2400 miles.
> JF-17: 1880 miles
> 
> *Weights*:
> F-16 ADF: 16,285 pounds empty, 25,281 pounds combat, 37,500 pounds maximum takeoff.
> JF-17: 14,520 empty, 20,062 pounds combat, 27,300 pounds maximum takeoff.


None of what you say is surprising as the 16 is a larger platform. Max speed is irrelevant as with modern day missiles it maybe of little use. I dont know whether there is a way of developing a system by which size and engine disparity are calculated per unit with each plane assigned a number of units based on parameters. In my view that would be the only sane way of doing a comparative study. I will also disregard the negligible difference in the max ceiling.
so carry on.
Araz

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Najam Khan

VCheng said:


> Sure, let's start off with some basics:
> 
> *Engine: *
> F-16 ADF: F100-PW-220, 14,590/23,770 lb.
> JF-17: Klimov RD-93 11,510/19,000 lb.
> 
> *Maximum speed:*
> F-16 ADF: Mach 2.05
> JF-1: Mach 1.6
> 
> *Service ceiling:*
> F-16 ADF: 55,000 ft.
> JF-17: 55,500 ft.
> 
> *Maximum range:*
> F-16 ADF: 2400 miles.
> JF-17: 1880 miles
> 
> *Weights*:
> F-16 ADF: 16,285 pounds empty, 25,281 pounds combat, 37,500 pounds maximum takeoff.
> JF-17: 14,520 empty, 20,062 pounds combat, 27,300 pounds maximum takeoff.



VCheng, you can't just compare both aircraft based on the above mentioned parameters. 
Look at it at from Financial POV, or operational cost (spares, weapons, cost of fuel, cost of repair) etc.
Or simply just take price of 1 AMRAAM and compare with price tag of Chinese weapons you will get your answer which is more cost-effective for PAF, as both airframes are already in active service.

Also, these jets are not ADF but rather MLU airframe (which they don't need again anytime soon).

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Sankpal

Congrats...have agreement signed?


----------



## VCheng

araz said:


> None of what you say is surprising as the 16 is a larger platform. Max speed is irrelevant as with modern day missiles it maybe of little use. I dont know whether there is a way of developing a system by which size and engine disparity are calculated per unit with each plane assigned a number of units based on parameters. In my view that would be the only sane way of doing a comparative study. I will also disregard the negligible difference in the max ceiling.
> so carry on.
> Araz





Najam Khan said:


> VCheng, you can't just compare both aircraft based on the above mentioned parameters.
> Look at it at from Financial POV, or operational cost (spares, weapons, cost of fuel, cost of repair) etc.
> Or simply just take price of 1 AMRAAM and compare with price tag of Chinese weapons you will get your answer which is more cost-effective for PAF, as both airframes are already in active service.
> 
> Also, these jets are not ADF but rather MLU airframe (which they don't need again anytime soon).



I just gave those basics just to reinforce what I said here before that people disagreed with: 

(1) These F-16-ADFs (OCU) represent a good deal for PAF because of their capabilities. 

(2) Even these old F-16s are better in their capabilities than the spanking new JF-17. 

We can talk actual numbers or we can talk without them, either way I am pretty sure both those statements are correct. The implications of both are pretty interesting too.


----------



## mikkix

Great News for Pakistan.


----------



## MastanKhan

VCheng said:


> Thank you for that post, but I would be willing to wager that that 33 year old PW and airframe can put a pair of missiles backed by decent avionics and enough fuel to do the job from brakes off to 40,000 feet faster than the JF-17, or put twice as much ordnance in ground targets with greater accuracy, other things being equal.
> 
> Great as the JF-17 is, it has a weak engine, not enough internal fuel and cobbled together avionics. It will take some time to develop into a platform fit for this century rather than the last.
> 
> No offence intended or implied, Sir.




Vcheng,

What is the big deal with the engine---the F14 had a weak engine---the Phantom had a weak engine---the F18 had a weak engine---.

Everybody has cobbled together avionics and power plants nowadays---what is the big deal----. India is mating israeli equipment to russian equipment---.

So---the loiter time for the JF17 is not as much as that of an F16----but with half of that time without refuelling is still enough for the job-----.

You introduced yourself as an accountant one time---do other people know you as an engineer!!!!



VCheng said:


> Sure, suit yourself. With the present engine, the JF-17 is not going anywhere fast. Literally.
> 
> (BTW, this classic "Trust us, we know what we are doing" attitude belongs in the last century, and can work only so far in this changed world. Time to wake up! Deeds and evidence based conclusions work much better.)




Vcheng,

Is the 30 years old F16 not superior to the base model Grippen in every manner. These aircraft have certain ground strike capabilities matched by none other----and if the job can be done by a 5mil aircraft---then why waste a 35 mil aircraft.

Bettet BVR's, WVR's and electronic package will always make the difference----.

Please define what a better power plant would do in this case----!

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## MastanKhan

Vcheng,

I forgot to mention the highly touted and used 5.56 military assault rifle used by the U S----a bullet that has hardly any stopping power----as compared to the more powerful .308---.

So---when you state the JF 17 does not have enough power----what is it reference to or comparable to----and what it cannot do---or when you say it is a mix and match of avionics---then you need to state what they cannot do and what the issues are----.

Vcheng---you are a smart and intelligent poster---!!!!!!!


----------



## VCheng

MastanKhan said:


> Vcheng,
> 
> What is the big deal with the engine---the F14 had a weak engine---the Phantom had a weak engine---the F18 had a weak engine---.
> 
> Everybody has cobbled together avionics and power plants nowadays---what is the big deal----. India is mating israeli equipment to russian equipment---.
> 
> So---the loiter time for the JF17 is not as much as that of an F16----but with half of that time without refuelling is still enough for the job-----.
> 
> You introduced yourself as an accountant one time---do other people know you as an engineer!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vcheng,
> 
> I think you missed the information I provided a couple of three years ago---. To refresh you----I put a stop to the leaks about the capabilities of the JF17's. Before that---it was like a sieve----info flooding out from the horses mouth---not now. There is a lid on it.
> 
> Is the 30 years old F16 not superior to the base model Grippen in every manner. These aircraft have certain ground strike capabilities matched by none other----and if the job can be done by a 5mil aircraft---then why waste a 35 mil aircraft.
> 
> Bettet BVR's, WVR's and electronic package will always make the difference----.
> 
> Please define what a better power plant would do in this case----!



Thank you for that post, but one which did not say anything about these two statements:

(1) These F-16-ADFs (OCU) represent a good deal for PAF because of their capabilities. 

(2) Even these old F-16s are better in their capabilities than the spanking new JF-17.

I think that both the above two are correct.


----------



## MastanKhan

VCheng said:


> Thank you for that post, but one which did not say anything about these two statements:
> 
> (1) These F-16-ADFs (OCU) represent a good deal for PAF because of their capabilities.
> 
> (2) Even these old F-16s are better in their capabilities than the spanking new JF-17.
> 
> I think that both the above two are correct.



Hi,

So----the JF17 can take 2/3rd's the load---as compared to these older aircaft---- but the electronic warfare suite on the JF17's far superior to these older aircaft. The JF 17 can carry out the missions not delegated to teh F16---like the naval version of the chinese missile or other similar items

The bottomline is that PAF does not want to risk its 25 mil and 50 mil planes for a job that can be performed by the 5 million plane.

F16 is technically an extremely superior platform since the day of its inception----this aircraft was designed to perfection right from gitgo---. PAF was concerned that there would be issues with the F16's----but now that they have an alternative program in place---the threat of that issue has phased away. 

Now as the threat of the parts issue has phased away---paf has reconsidered the purchase of this aircraft because it already has the infra structure to maintain and manager these aircraft.

As a matter of fact it should have been a concern for the paks if this option was not accepted.

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## Chak Bamu

VCheng said:


> Thank you for that post, but one which did not say anything about these two statements:
> 
> (1) These F-16-ADFs (OCU) represent a good deal for PAF because of their capabilities.
> 
> (2) Even these old F-16s are better in their capabilities than the spanking new JF-17.
> 
> I think that both the above two are correct.



Even though Mastan Khan sb has effectively answered you, I will reinforce it.

Both your questions are really just one question phrased two different ways. But in any case:

1. The deal is good because of the price as explained very well by Munir and MK sb.

2. The spanking new JF-17 is the Block II currently being manufactured at Kamra. The same was inaugurated by our PM.

IF F-16 ADF can a) fire AIM-120 to its range, b) fire ASM, c) carry DRFM, d) carry APG-68 e) carry comparable ECM, f) have remaining Air-frame life longer than new JF-17, g) can not be sanctioned, e) have lower operating costs, then one could say that they are in every respect superior to JF-17.

However, these ADFs have no maritime role, can not be upgraded by Pakistan with any new weapons integration, have lesser capability avionics, cost more to operate, cost more to maintain (being old), provide no value to our industrial capacity, will always carry the risk of sanctions, and hurt our marketing of JF-17.

So, rather than put burden on others to 'prove' you wrong, could you address any of the above to prove yourself right. You are the cynic, you might as well prove your allegations. 

You might be laughing to yourself at your ability to make other people waste their time with you non-sense posts, claims, and cynicism, for all I know. But given that you never bother to apologize when conclusively proven wrong, as in the case of your assertion that these birds would not be coming to Pakistan, you might actually come here to troll in a more sophisticated way than others.

Reactions: Positive Rating Positive Rating:
1 | Like Like:
14


----------



## VCheng

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> So----the JF17 can take 2/3rd's the load---as compared to these older aircaft---- but the electronic warfare suite on the JF17's far superior to these older aircaft. The JF 17 can carry out the missions not delegated to teh F16---like the naval version of the chinese missile or other similar items
> 
> The bottomline is that PAF does not want to risk its 25 mil and 50 mil planes for a job that can be performed by the 5 million plane.
> 
> F16 is technically an extremely superior platform since the day of its inception----this aircraft was designed to perfection right from gitgo---. PAF was concerned that there would be issues with the F16's----but now that they have an alternative program in place---the threat of that issue has phased away.
> 
> Now as the threat of the parts issue has phased away---paf has reconsidered the purchase of this aircraft because it already has the infra structure to maintain and manager these aircraft.
> 
> As a matter of fact it should have been a concern for the paks if this option was not accepted.




The electronics suite on the F-16 can be upgraded too. The one thing that JF-17 does have going for it over the F-16 is that much the the ability to upgrade it is within Pakistan's control. The down side to that domestic ability is that it remains a few steps behind and is subject to delays due to lack of adequate funding.


----------



## Quwa

If it's still unclear to anyone, the availability of used F-16s does not make the JF-17 any less necessary. In fact, it makes the JF-17 all the more important to the PAF. As @Chak Bamu mentioned, the F-16s cannot readily be upgraded or modified in absence of a US-approved mandate, and even then the PAF would have to settle with what the US chooses to make available.

So why the used F-16s then?

Did we just suddenly forget that the PAF has 20-25+ year old F-7s to replace soon? If the PAF can pick up used and surplus F-16 airframes for cheap, and these F-16s are capable of using AIM-120s, then why not? The availability of JF-17s and funds do not make the F-16 completely irrelevant considering that the PAF has the infrastructure and logistical prerequisites (e.g. training, maintenance people, etc) to operate A/B *and* C/D fighters.

What about JF-17?

As @Chak Bamu and others have mentioned, the JF-17 and its subsequent versions (e.g. Block-2, 3, etc) give the PAF the flexibility to develop the aircraft around the weapon systems and technology of its choice. This includes the PAF's inventory of stand-off strike weapons, i.e. Ra'ad, H2, H4, CM-400AKG and whatever else PAF develops or acquires in the future.

In fact, the F-16s give the PAF additional room in regards to JF-17. Instead of expediting the platform for the base minimum of suitable air-to-air and air-to-surface capabilities, the PAF can orient JF-17 Block-3 et. al development towards achieving greater payload and range. This could include substantial changes to the airframe, e.g. conformal fuel-tanks, higher proportion of composite materials, new engine, etc.

The PAF can evolve the JF-17 from its current lightweight general use platform into a medium weight 4+ generation multirole fighter. Whereas the F-16 can stand in as a formidable air defence asset, the JF-17 (i.e. future blocks) can form the nucleus of the PAF's offensive forces.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## MastanKhan

VCheng said:


> The electronics suite on the F-16 can be upgraded too. The one thing that JF-17 does have going for it over the F-16 is that much the the ability to upgrade it is within Pakistan's control. The down side to that domestic ability is that it remains a few steps behind and is subject to delays due to lack of adequate funding.



Vcheng,

Man---your last few posts on this subject matter are nether here nor there. 

So what citizenship does Caroline Jaine has----.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## VCheng

MastanKhan said:


> Vcheng,
> 
> Man---your last few posts on this subject matter are nether here nor there.
> 
> So what citizenship does Caroline Jaine has----.



Yeah, I am the utterly stupid one (look at my avatar!) who is not making sense because I cannot compete with the absolute perfect wisdom in uniform. I concede defeat. Adios!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Chak Bamu

VCheng said:


> Yeah, I am the utterly stupid one (look at my avatar!) who is not making sense because I cannot compete with the absolute perfect wisdom in uniform. I concede defeat. Adios!



Sarcastic Parthian shots can not cover the inadequacy of your POV and the stupidity of sticking to your opinion when clearly proven wrong.

Yeah, so run Homer run.

I feel sorry for people around you. Stubbornness combined with sarcasm is a deadly combination.

Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## Informant

@VCheng remember when you would thump up and down when it came to congress approval for F-16s. How dumbfounded you were I was telling people to relax and just wait for good news. But nay, you just with your high handedness had to argue. I know your type, seen your type. You will argue anything and anyone. 

Now you argue nonsense, bring up internet drivel as facts and figures to back up your misguided stance. Then again you can carry on, some might take the bait. Most wont. Atleast people privy to inside info wont be that easy.

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## Bratva

If someone wondering how cash strapped PAF managed to buy these F-16 or some might think, these are brought from AID money, PAF recently concluded a 80-90 million dollar deal with IRAQ for mushaq trainers. As per Munir estimate these F-16 were brought for 70-80 Million dollar. Hence We bought these from our MONEY.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## rockstar08

mafiya said:


> If someone wondering how cash strapped PAF managed to buy these F-16 or some might think, these are brought from AID money, PAF recently concluded a 80-90 million dollar deal with IRAQ for mushaq trainers. As per Munir estimate these F-16 were brought for 70-80 Million dollar. Hence We bought these from our MONEY.



yep It does make sense , I was about to reply the same things for those peoples who concern about $$$$
but I have a question , do you think that Jordanian 13 F-16's were last ones to find their new homes ? or PAF is looking to increase their numbers ??
I personally think if they bought more than it would be good option to replace their aging fleet of F-7's !!
@Chak Bamu @araz @Munir your thoughts ?


----------



## Viper0011.

[quote="VCheng, post: 5647343, member: 32635"
(1) These F-16-ADFs (OCU) represent a good deal for PAF because of their capabilities.
(2) Even these old F-16s are better in their capabilities than the spanking new JF-17.
I think that both the above two are correct.[/quote]

The above statement may be true for JF-17 block 1. But it won't be true for the Block II and III's. The PAF is trying to create tiers. In fact, the F-16 is going to create the outer most tier in my opinion, which is the most riskier, the air defense role. This negates a lot of people's assumptions on here that the F-16 is so costly that the PAF would use it in certain conditions or keep it as a princess in the house so to speak. With the F-16 in numbers and even used ones, you get the following:
1) A super capable aircraft to defend your airspace against threats like the MKI.
2) Cost effective platform with no additional training costs, maintenance overhead, etc. Readily deploy-able, maintenance and overhauls available. 
3) Forms the outer most tier for interception. Becomes the point of contact with any enemy assets.
4) With number 3 being applied, that gives the JF-17's availability to use different weapons and strike platforms like standoff weapons, anti-radiation missiles, naval weapons, etc. Since the F-16 was used on the outer most tier, the JF-17 can use a range of weapons in multi-role. It can also be used for AD supplementing the F-16 or forming the second tier for AD.
5) More F-16's give PAF the ability to reduce or remove F-7's from AD roles. The F-7's then become point-defense jets, providing air cover over critical cities, installations, etc. The Grifo radar is great for limited 20-25 KM BVR. This becomes the inner most tier. The F-7's would probably be best used in this manner.
6) Less pressure to push out JF-17 in a hurry. The block II already have a lot more capability. Block III may turn into a new Stealthy plane as adding F-16's gives plenty of extra time to PAF to ensure top tech and quality is put into the JF-17.

Now if you take a look at it, an enemy aircraft has to go through about three tiers, the F-16's, the JF-17 and then the F-7 (not to mention SAM's), to get to a target. How much success rate would you give the enemy jets? I'd give very little chance of being able to cross 3-4 AD rings including SAM and STILL being able to make it to the target and come back alive.....

This entire scenario I drew for you, became reality due to the acquisition of used F-16's. Otherwise the PAF would have to wait another 5 years before JF-17 can be available in block II and real numbers. The above scenario could NEVER exist if there was no JF-17. Both the JF-17 and the F-16 working together provide tremendous force-multiplication capability that otherwise won't be possible.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## aliyusuf

orangzaib said:


> The above statement may be true for JF-17 block 1. But it won't be true for the Block II and III's. The PAF is trying to create tiers. In fact, the F-16 is going to create the outer most tier in my opinion, which is the most riskier, the air defense role. This negates a lot of people's assumptions on here that the F-16 is so costly that the PAF would use it in certain conditions or keep it as a princess in the house so to speak. With the F-16 in numbers and even used ones, you get the following:
> 1) A super capable aircraft to defend your airspace against threats like the MKI.
> 2) Cost effective platform with no additional training costs, maintenance overhead, etc. Readily deploy-able, maintenance and overhauls available.
> 3) Forms the outer most tier for interception. Becomes the point of contact with any enemy assets.
> 4) With number 3 being applied, that gives the JF-17's availability to use different weapons and strike platforms like standoff weapons, anti-radiation missiles, naval weapons, etc. Since the F-16 was used on the outer most tier, the JF-17 can use a range of weapons in multi-role. It can also be used for AD supplementing the F-16 or forming the second tier for AD.
> 5) More F-16's give PAF the ability to reduce or remove F-7's from AD roles. The F-7's then become point-defense jets, providing air cover over critical cities, installations, etc. The Grifo radar is great for limited 20-25 KM BVR. This becomes the inner most tier. The F-7's would probably be best used in this manner.
> 6) Less pressure to push out JF-17 in a hurry. The block II already have a lot more capability. Block III may turn into a new Stealthy plane as adding F-16's gives plenty of extra time to PAF to ensure top tech and quality is put into the JF-17.
> 
> Now if you take a look at it, an enemy aircraft has to go through about three tiers, the F-16's, the JF-17 and then the F-7 (not to mention SAM's), to get to a target. How much success rate would you give the enemy jets? I'd give very little chance of being able to cross 3-4 AD rings including SAM and STILL being able to make it to the target and come back alive.....
> 
> This entire scenario I drew for you, became reality due to the acquisition of used F-16's. Otherwise the PAF would have to wait another 5 years before JF-17 can be available in block II and real numbers. The above scenario could NEVER exist if there was no JF-17. Both the JF-17 and the F-16 working together provide tremendous force-multiplication capability that otherwise won't be possible.



In the scenario depicted, don't you see any role for the ROSE-I Mirage-IIIEA equipped with Grifo-M3 radar?


----------



## Viper0011.

aliyusuf said:


> In the scenario depicted, don't you see any role for the ROSE-I Mirage-IIIEA equipped with Grifo-M3 radar?



Frankly speaking, their airframes are getting too old. They'll still be used as strike platforms for standoff munitions. Their naval role will be reduced due to availability of the JF-17 and more weapons package that come with it. Mirages will become ground support (Cluster munitions) and strike platforms for standoff weapons. If the PAF can secure more F-16's like 50 or so, you might see some Mirages start to phase out right away


----------



## Munir

orangzaib said:


> Frankly speaking, their airframes are getting too old. They'll still be used as strike platforms for standoff munitions. Their naval role will be reduced due to availability of the JF-17 and more weapons package that come with it. Mirages will become ground support (Cluster munitions) and strike platforms for standoff weapons. If the PAF can secure more F-16's like 50 or so, you might see some Mirages start to phase out right away



Well, Israel is still selling old Kfir frames after upgrading them with lots of modern tech. As long as you replace parts there is not really an old frame.


----------



## ziaulislam

orangzaib said:


> Frankly speaking, their airframes are getting too old. They'll still be used as strike platforms for standoff munitions. Their naval role will be reduced due to availability of the JF-17 and more weapons package that come with it. Mirages will become ground support (Cluster munitions) and strike platforms for standoff weapons. If the PAF can secure more F-16's like 50 or so, you might see some Mirages start to phase out right away



i wounder how long will PAF push those mirages.
they were upgraded in late 90s. by 2020 they should be passing their life limit. at best PAF might push them to 2025.


----------



## Windjammer

*Pakistan could take additional Jordanian F-16s - 5/14/2014 - Flight Global*

Pakistan could acquire more Jordanian Lockheed Martin F-16 A/B Block 15 aircraft, as it prepares to receive the final two examples of the current deal for 13 aircraft.

An air force spokesman says the number of F-16’s could increase, but did not provide specific numbers.

From late April, Pakistan has received 11 former Jordanian F-16s. The arrival of the last two aircraft is expected soon, says the spokesman.

Pakistan decided to acquire used aircraft, as opposed to new ones, owing to budgetary concerns.

Based on Flightglobal’s World Air Force’s directory, the deal reduces Jordan’s F-16 fleet to 29 examples, and boosts Pakistan’s to 50.

Media reports from Pakistan quote air force officials saying that on average the airframes still have 3,000 flying hours, and should serve for an additional 20 years.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Viper0011.

Munir said:


> Well, Israel is still selling old Kfir frames after upgrading them with lots of modern tech. As long as you replace parts there is not really an old frame.



If we were talking about the French / Desault, I'd agree with the above example (vs. Israel and Kfirs). But its not the case for Pakistan as it is not the manufacturer of the plane. There is a lot more to a jet than overhaul and avionics integration. That's what Pakistan has been doing. They don't own Mirage's manufacturing so they can't really do what the Israelis or the French can do being manufacturers. Now your statement would be true if the jet in discussion was say a 30 year old JF-17, as Pakistan manufactuers it.


----------



## Munir

Windjammer said:


> *Pakistan could take additional Jordanian F-16s - 5/14/2014 - Flight Global*
> 
> Pakistan could acquire more Jordanian Lockheed Martin F-16 A/B Block 15 aircraft, as it prepares to receive the final two examples of the current deal for 13 aircraft.
> 
> An air force spokesman says the number of F-16’s could increase, but did not provide specific numbers.
> 
> From late April, Pakistan has received 11 former Jordanian F-16s. The arrival of the last two aircraft is expected soon, says the spokesman.
> 
> Pakistan decided to acquire used aircraft, as opposed to new ones, owing to budgetary concerns.
> 
> Based on Flightglobal’s World Air Force’s directory, the deal reduces Jordan’s F-16 fleet to 29 examples, and boosts Pakistan’s to 50.
> 
> Media reports from Pakistan quote air force officials saying that on average the airframes still have 3,000 flying hours, and should serve for an additional 20 years.



Exactly what has been said by us... We will buy the 29 so we have our 100. Doesn't sound that very familiar to some? Indeed. That means we will try to get 27 MLU packages in the next fiscal year.


----------



## Windjammer

Munir said:


> Exactly what has been said by us... We will buy the 29 so we have our 100. Doesn't sound that very familiar to some? Indeed. That means we will try to get 27 MLU packages in the next fiscal year.


But the figure of 50 doesn't match up, i thought the tally was around 60 plus the B-52s.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## nomi007

3 F-16 MLU, escorted by 2 Mirage III performing a flyby over PAF Base Mushaf upon their arrival from Jordan.


----------



## Quwa

Windjammer said:


> But the figure of 50 doesn't match up, i thought the tally was around 60 plus the B-52s.


Flight Global only counts A/Cs as "fighters".


----------



## Gryphon

The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is planning to buy around 16 used F-16A Block 15 ADF fighters from Jordan.

The 16 aircraft, originally from Peace Falcon II, were upgraded to Block 40/42 standard by TAI between 2005 and 2008.

In February 2014, the Pakistan Air Force signed a deal for 13 Ex-RJAF F-16A/B Block 15 ADF fighters (nine A & four B models) and has taken deliveries of 11 aircraft including at least 2 F-16Bs.

The PAF currently has 74 F-16s in service including 18 F-16C/D Block 50/50+, 45 F-16A/B Block 15 (undergoing MLU) and 11 recently acquired Ex-RJAF F-16A/B Block 15 ADF's.

The arrival of the last two aircraft is expected soon, a PAF spokesman told Flightglobal.


----------



## Windjammer

One of the Ex- Jordanian F-16 departing for Pakistan.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Windjammer

*I count three dual seaters in the line up.*

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## EyanKhan

Windjammer said:


> *I count three dual seaters in the line up.*


So there are the last of the F-16s from Jordan i presume? 
Ps i thought we were getting only 1 dual seater among the 13 we bought?


----------



## Windjammer

EyanKhan said:


> So there are the last of the F-16s from Jordan i presume?
> Ps i thought we were getting only 1 dual seater among the 13 we bought?


We have bought thirteen of which eleven have been delivered , initial delivery included two dual seaters but the presence of the three tells us a different story. Is it part of the initial batch or the follow up.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Informant

@Windjammer How many blanes have been MLU'ed? And what are the upgrade blocks to? 40-42?


----------



## Windjammer

Informant said:


> @Windjammer How many blanes have been MLU'ed? And what are the upgrade blocks to? 40-42?



To be honest, between those returning to US, others at TAI and some in house work being carried out, i have lost track, @Oscar, @Munir and sir @fatman17 are the best guys to answer your query.


----------



## Munir

As far as I know the official numbers are half of the older block15 are now MLU block 52 except engine/CFT. The rest is almost same (I am pretty sure there are parts that are not the same...). Those that are upgraded are all in airfield as the b52+.


----------



## Informant

Munir said:


> As far as I know the official numbers are half of the older block15 are now MLU block 52 except engine/CFT. The rest is almost same (I am pretty sure there are parts that are not the same...). Those that are upgraded are all in airfield as the b52+.



Nice, this will keep the Indians on their toes. What do you reckon, seeing the electronic warfare capabilities of 52+ which the Israelis are well aware off and the Indians getting their avionics from them, do you believe our 52+ are as effective as we get them?



Windjammer said:


> To be honest, between those returning to US, others at TAI and some in house work being carried out, i have lost track, @Oscar, @Munir and sir @fatman17 are the best guys to answer your query.



What is the timeline for completion of the upgrades?


----------



## Windjammer

Informant said:


> Nice, this will keep the Indians on their toes. What do you reckon, seeing the electronic warfare capabilities of 52+ which the Israelis are well aware off and the Indians getting their avionics from them, do you believe our 52+ are as effective as we get them?
> 
> 
> 
> What is the timeline for completion of the upgrades?


Bar some discrepancies, You will find a lot of info in this link.

Billions to Upgrade and Up-arm Pakistan’s F-16s


----------



## Pinnacle

Munir said:


> As far as I know the official numbers are half of the older block15 are now MLU block 52 except engine/CFT. The rest is almost same* (I am pretty sure there are parts that are not the same...)*. Those that are upgraded are all in airfield as the b52+.


couldnt understand that part Sir. are there any parts besides engine/cft that are not same as in our B-52s?


----------



## Munir

danish falcon said:


> couldnt understand that part Sir. are there any parts besides engine/cft that are not same as in our B-52s?


Some minor parts are not visibe...

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## nomi007



Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## nomi007



Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## nomi007



Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## nomi007



Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## nomi007



Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## elitepilot09

nomi007 said:


>



This is a very very interesting picture...


----------



## nomi007



Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Kompromat

These birds need a new paint scheme.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Munir

again two F16b's (624-625)... So not one but already 4 F16b's and looks like 626 is also going to be delivered so 5 b's???


----------



## rockstar08

nomi007 said:


>



who is this guy ?


----------



## Quwa

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is planning to buy around 16 used F-16A Block 15 ADF fighters from Jordan.
> 
> The 16 aircraft, originally from Peace Falcon II, were upgraded to Block 40/42 standard by TAI between 2005 and 2008.
> 
> In February 2014, the Pakistan Air Force signed a deal for 13 Ex-RJAF F-16A/B Block 15 ADF fighters (nine A & four B models) and has taken deliveries of 11 aircraft including at least 2 F-16Bs.
> 
> The PAF currently has 74 F-16s in service including 18 F-16C/D Block 50/50+, 45 F-16A/B Block 15 (undergoing MLU) and 11 recently acquired Ex-RJAF F-16A/B Block 15 ADF's.
> 
> The arrival of the last two aircraft is expected soon, a PAF spokesman told Flightglobal.


If you don't mind me asking, where did you get the additional 16 figure from? I know PAF is negotiating for additional F-16s, I wasn't aware of the specific number (16)...


----------



## nomi007

Mark Sien said:


> If you don't mind me asking, where did you get the additional 16 figure from? I know PAF is negotiating for additional F-16s, I wasn't aware of the specific number (16)...


next target will be turkey and eygpt probably


----------



## Munir

Egypt has 42 F16 of block 15... With mig29 coming these planes are easy to replace since alone f16's are 220... That is 5th largest fleet of f16 in the world...

Turkey... I do not think they will sell. They are capable to upgrade them inhouse.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Gryphon

Mark Sien said:


> If you don't mind me asking, where did you get the additional 16 figure from? I know PAF is negotiating for additional F-16s, I wasn't aware of the specific number (16)...



It is believed that Jordan is selling all F-16A/B Block 15 ADF (Non-MLU as well as MLU) aircraft. It had 16 _Peace Falcon- I_ F-16s (12A, 4B). Of these 3 A models are believed to have crashed. The rest (9A's and 4 B's), all of which are Non-MLU, were sold to Pakistan. However, they have undergone Falcon Star / UP.

The 15 to 16 F-16A Block 15 ADF (MLU) aircraft (as referred above) are _Peace Falcon- 2 _aircraft. And, according to FlightGlobal, Pakistan is planning to acquire more used F-16s from Jordan. So, the default assumption is the PF-2 aircraft (Originally 16A, 1B) out of which the two seater (reportedly RJAF 670) is believed to have crashed.



nomi007 said:


> next target will be turkey and eygpt probably



According to worldtribune.com, 



> Diplomatic sources said the United States, blocked by Congress, has urged other F-16 operators to export the aircraft to Pakistan. They said potential suppliers included Egypt, Jordan and Turkey.



According to IHS Jane's Defence Weekly,



> The official said the PAF has also made inquiries with at least two other countries to buy F-16s although he declined to name them.



Inquiries were made but any deals are unlikely.

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## Zarvan

Munir said:


> Egypt has 42 F16 of block 15... With mig29 coming these planes are easy to replace since alone f16's are 220... That is 5th largest fleet of f16 in the world...
> 
> Turkey... I do not think they will sell. They are capable to upgrade them inhouse.


Sir Egypt is already going for more F-16 they have received 4 I think they are expected to get 16 more I don't think they would sell us F-16 we should try to get F-16 from Norway or Netherlands or Denmark or via Jordan or make sure they sell to Jordan and we buy from Jordan


----------



## HRK

Can anyone comment about the possible purchase of *F100-PW-220E* engines with the current purchase of F-16 from Jordan, as spares ....

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Gryphon

*Flight International* (20-26 May 2014) - Excerpt from Page 10

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Munir

Zarvan said:


> Sir Egypt is already going for more F-16 they have received 4 I think they are expected to get 16 more I don't think they would sell us F-16 we should try to get F-16 from Norway or Netherlands or Denmark or via Jordan or make sure they sell to Jordan and we buy from Jordan



The issue is that these arabs are never given AMRAAM. Just like the block52 bought by Irac. It has Sparrow F instead of AMRAAM. And no AIM9X... So the Egyptians bought better planes in the form of block52 but without the BVR option. So upgrading those 42 old to block52 standard and not getting AMRAAM is waste of effort. So Saudia helped Egyptians by financing the Mig29 deal with BVR. That will replace the older F16 versions. Saudia feels left alone with Iran so starts financing assistants which they can ask for help in case Iran goes ballistic. This is what you see in Asia. Syria is just an act of KSA. No one else. Not eve Israel.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Donatello

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Flight International (20-26 May 2014) - Excerpt from Page 10



Assuming another squadron strength?


----------



## Munir

These are probably the ones to be transferred. OThers are block 20 hence different MLU packages needed...

ProgramModelBlockQty.SerialsDelivered
Peace Falcon IF-16ABlock 15 ADF12220/2311997-1998
F-16BBlock 15 ADF4232/2351997-1998
Peace Falcon IIF-16ABlock 15 ADF16671/6862003
F-16BBlock 15 ADF16702003

the ones from Egypt...


ProgramModelBlockQty.SerialsDelivered
Peace Vector IF-16ABlock 15349301/93341982-1983
F-16BBlock 1589201/92081982-1985

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## ziaulislam

42 is a big number, it may be possible as Saudis are financing the mig29 deal, they may have some influence in this regard. but in past eygpt has never showed interest in selling. secondly hasnt eygpt been known for poor maintenance of f-16s..what will be their condition.
Denmark has f-16s supposedly in storage..


----------



## Munir

It is not about Denmark/Norway but plain block15 with max Falcon Up. That we it can directly have the same MLU. Otherwise you cannot have the same... A lot of testing and re-installing with newer equipment will make them toooo expensive.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## ziaulislam

how will we find additional MLU kits? besides the original 14 extra we brought..wouldn't it require congress approval?.


----------



## Munir

I do not think so. And besides that... Are you expecting a no if they allow the F16 sale already? 1 + 1 = 2

I think it is already done deal. You need someone for exit Afghanistan you give some goodies. You want a doctor that helped you to find the biggest terrorist for you, you sweeten the deal they cannot refuse...

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## ziaulislam

lets hope the deal is more sweeter than just a few f-16s..

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Frogman

> Egypt has 42 F16 of block 15... With mig29 coming these planes are easy to replace since alone f16's are 220... That is 5th largest fleet of f16 in the world...



All aircraft from Peace Vector I&II have been upgraded to Block 40 standards as a result of a MLU. Egypt, however, will not part with the jets, it makes up the back bone of the air force and will not sell them when it is pushing to replace all its previous gen jets (Mig-21, F-7 etc.). The arrival of the Mig-29/35 will be used to complement the falcons, not replace them. 4th largest fleet btw.



> It has Sparrow F instead of AMRAAM



Also operates the AIM-7 M/P.



> And no AIM9X... So the Egyptians bought better planes in the form of block52 but without the BVR option.



Pakistan doesn't operate the AIM-9X either. The Sparrow is still a BVR missile, that statement is factually incorrect, however, whether the Sparrow is adequate enough is another matter.



> So upgrading those 42 old to block52 standard and not getting AMRAAM is waste of effort.



Pakistan already operates the AMRAAM, the only thing that limits the Egyptian fighters is the missile, not the software. If Pakistan buys (which will not happen) them then it should have zero problems integrating the AIM-120 on the fighters, which it did on its own fighters only a* few years ago*. Btw Egyptian F-16s have had the HARPOON integrated on to them, something which Pakistan does not have.



> So Saudia helped Egyptians by financing the Mig29 deal with BVR



There has been no official indication that Saudi is financing the deal.



> That will replace the older F16 versions



More orders of Block-52 aircraft will replace aircraft lost due to mishaps or attrition (which has already happened with the latest batch). The F-16A/Bs at Block-40 will remain in service for the foreseeable future.



> secondly hasnt eygpt been known for poor maintenance of f-16s..what will be their condition.



Has pretty much the same attrition/crash rate of the Israeli Air Force, and you wouldn't think them poor maintainers of the air craft would you?


----------



## Donatello

Frogman said:


> Btw Egyptian F-16s have had the HARPOON integrated on to them, something which Pakistan does not have.



Pakistan already has Harpoon in it's inventory and F-16s are not meant for maritime strike. Mirage III/V can carrry the Exocet, while the P3 Orions and naval ships carry Harpoon. And JF-17s are integrated with weapons that have longer range than Harpoons anyway. So no point in putting them on F-16s. If we want, we can get them integrated, nothing can stop us, since the aircraft and missile are both present with Pakistan. AIM120 is the true BVR weapon, something AIM7 cannot provide. There is a reason US refused AIM120 to Egypt and allowed AIM7.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## ziaulislam

Frogman said:


> Pakistan doesn't operate the AIM-9X either. The Sparrow is still a BVR missile, that statement is factually incorrect, however, whether the Sparrow is adequate enough is another matter.



i think its already discussed here that aim 7 range and the fact that its a semi active homing missile makes it far inferior than aim 120 fire and forget . most of the air forces have even retired aim 7.
and yes i think Egypt really wouldnt sell them other than of course its a way to provide pakistan f-16s(Egypt sells to us and gets more free from EDA via USA).
anyway sooner or later india will start pulling strings to stop this method too.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Indus Falcon

Would a MICA A2A missile be cheaper then a AIM120?

I'm asking this because I believe the MICA has been integrated with the Blk60 and I could be wrong but I think it is cheaper than the AIM120. Can anyone confirm or deny this?


----------



## nomi007

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=493678770670960

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Indus Falcon

nomi007 said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=493678770670960


The sound of a jet engine is music to my ears!

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Zarvan

Right now Breaking News is coming that more F-16 from Jordan have arrived in Pakistan


----------



## saikumar

great news for pakistan


----------



## elitepilot09

Are these original 13? Or addition ones?


----------



## Zarvan

elitepilot09 said:


> Are these original 13? Or addition ones?


No part of those 13 and General Raheel Shareef is the Guest of Honor in this ceremony of their induction


----------



## Black Widow

Old F16 or new one?


----------



## FNFAL

Black Widow said:


> Old F16 or new one?


OLD....12 F-16As and one F-16B Block 15 version

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Manticore

*PAF INDUCTS BATCH OF F-16 FIGHTER JETS FROM JORDAN*






Sargodha: Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has re-equipped her fourth Squadron with state-of-the art aircraft F-16, say media reports.

According to PAF spokesman, General Raheel Sharif, Chief of the Army Staff was the chief guest of the ceremony which was also attended by Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt, Chief of the Air Staff Pakistan Air Force.

A smartly turned out contingent of No 19 Squadron presented the general salute to the chief guest followed by the parade.

The Chief Guest transferred the Squadron flag to new commander and as per tradition of Pakistan Air Force, newly inducted F-16s of No 19 Squadron presented a fly past followed by a stunning aerial display, the spokesman added.

- See more at: PAF inducts batch of F-16 fighter jets from Jordan | Saach.TV
PAF inducts batch of F-16 fighter jets from Jordan | Saach.TV

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Zarvan

ziaulislam said:


> 42 is a big number, it may be possible as Saudis are financing the mig29 deal, they may have some influence in this regard. but in past eygpt has never showed interest in selling. secondly hasnt eygpt been known for poor maintenance of f-16s..what will be their condition.
> Denmark has f-16s supposedly in storage..


Well Saudis these days are in really good mood they offered Jordan and Morocco to finance their weapons deals and also helping Egypt



Manticore said:


> *PAF INDUCTS BATCH OF F-16 FIGHTER JETS FROM JORDAN*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sargodha: Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has re-equipped her fourth Squadron with state-of-the art aircraft F-16, say media reports.
> 
> According to PAF spokesman, General Raheel Sharif, Chief of the Army Staff was the chief guest of the ceremony which was also attended by Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt, Chief of the Air Staff Pakistan Air Force.
> 
> A smartly turned out contingent of No 19 Squadron presented the general salute to the chief guest followed by the parade.
> 
> The Chief Guest transferred the Squadron flag to new commander and as per tradition of Pakistan Air Force, newly inducted F-16s of No 19 Squadron presented a fly past followed by a stunning aerial display, the spokesman added.
> 
> - See more at: PAF inducts batch of F-16 fighter jets from Jordan | Saach.TV
> PAF inducts batch of F-16 fighter jets from Jordan | Saach.TV


How many have arrived I mean in ceremony 5 came before so How many came this time ?


----------



## Gryphon

*PAF inducts fourth Squadron with modern F-16s*

_21 May, 2014_

_*The aircrafts have been purchased from Royal Jordanian Air Force.*_

Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has re-equipped fourth Squadron with state-of-the art aircraft F-16s today.

A ceremony in this connection held in Sargodha today (Wednesday), which was attended by Chief of the Army Staff, General Raheel Sharif as chief guest. Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt was also present with him.

A smartly turned out contingent of Number 19 Squadron presented the general salute to the chief guest followed by parade. The Chief Guest transferred the Squadron flag to new commander and as per tradition newly inducted F-16s of Number 19 Squadron presented a fly past followed by a stunning aerial display.

It is worthy to note, that the aircrafts have been purchased at a minimal price from Royal Jordanian Air Force after series of negotiations held between concerned ministries and the concerted efforts of Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt.

Number 19 Squadron "Sherdils" was raised in 1958 at PAF Base Mauripur with 12 American origin F-86F Sabre Aircraft. During 1965 war, Number 19 Squadron, apart from other victories, has the unrivalled distinction of carrying out the first successful close air support mission at Wagha, and famous air strike at Pathankot airfield. It also has the honour of having six Sitara-e-Jurat. In 1990, the Squadron was equipped with Pakistan's newly acquired Chinese F-7P interceptor aircraft and was converted into an Operational Conversion Unit in July 1991.

The current Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt also commanded the Squadron with the onerous responsibility of setting up the new conversion unit. The unit has strengthened the defence of motherland by graduating 652 fighter pilots till date.

PAF inducts fourth Squadron with modern F-16s | Radio Pakistan





*F-16 jets inducted to PAF fleet*

_May 21, 2014_

SARGODHA: A batch of F-16 fighter jets was formally inducted to Pakistan Air Force (PAF) fleet on Wednesday at a ceremony in Sargodha city of Punjab, SAMAA reported.

Pakistan has purchased used F-16 jets from Jordan.

The ceremony, held at PAF base Mashaf, was attended by Chief of Army Staff General Raheel Sharif, Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt, Jordon air force officials besides and officers from the Pakistan Army and PAF.

Smarty turned out contingents played military tunes to present guard of honour to Gen Sharif who was chief guest of the ceremony. - SAMAA

F-16 jets inducted to PAF fleet - SAMAA



*F-16 planes from Jordan included in PAF fleet*

By Mirza Hassan | May 21, 2014






*SARGODHA: Pakistan Air Force (PAF) on Wednesday organized a formal ceremony to include F-16 fighter jets from Jordan Air Force into the national forces fleet here at Sargodha Airbase.*

The fighter jets arrived from Pakistan’s middle-eastern friendly country Jordan and were included in PAF Forth Squad.

The fighter aircraft have been purchased from Jordan and they were in the use of the Royal Jordanian Air Force (RJAF).

The ceremony started with the recitation of Holy Quran, Pakistan Army Chief General Raheel Sharif was the chief guest of the ceremony.

F-16 planes from Jordan included in PAF fleet | The News Tribe

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Luftwaffe

Abu Nasar said:


> Would a MICA A2A missile be cheaper then a AIM120?
> 
> I'm asking this because I believe the MICA has been integrated with the Blk60 and I could be wrong but I think it is cheaper than the AIM120. Can anyone confirm or deny this?



No point in getting MICA when AIM-120C is available for sale. As for EAF no western country is going to provide them with Active BVRs to be integrated with F-16s US will never allow it, their only chance is mig-29/35 and sukhoi series with R-77.


----------



## chauvunist

Right now the Induction ceremony is being aired live with F 16 performing different manouvers...

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## Mugwop

chauvunist said:


> Right now the Induction ceremony is being aired live with F 16 performing different manouvers...



How was it? I wanted to see it

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Windjammer

Zarvan said:


> Right now Breaking News is coming that more F-16 from Jordan have arrived in Pakistan


Must be the last two of the current batch of 13.



chauvunist said:


> Right now the Induction ceremony is being aired live with F 16 performing different manouvers...



Yara, why not record and post it.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## chauvunist

Windjammer said:


> Must be the last two of the current batch of 13.
> 
> 
> 
> Yara, why not record and post it.



i turned on TV soon after coming from work to check if Geo channels were actually banned or not as i had night duty yesterday but upon turning TV on,the ceremony was in full swing with real nice Live performance of F solas and suddenly forgot everything...



Jessica_L said:


> How was it? I wanted to see it



It was wonderful..I hope Recordings will be soon available...

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Windjammer

chauvunist said:


> i turned on TV soon after coming from work to check if Geo channels were actually banned or not as i had night duty yesterday but upon turning TV on,the ceremony was in full swing with real nice Live performance of F solas and suddenly forgot everything...


They will probably repeat it with the hourly news again, ... so is GEO scum off air in Pakistan.?


----------



## chauvunist

Windjammer said:


> They will probably repeat it with the hourly news again, ... so is GEO scum off air in Pakistan.?



Actually Geo news is off air for the past 5 days after tussle between Cable operator's association and Geo representative's in Press conference but Geo Tez and other Geo channels are still on air(which i was hoping not seeing 'em again)..


----------



## Windjammer

*F-16 planes from Jordan included in PAF fleet - 21st May 2014*
Pakistan Air Force (PAF) on Wednesday organized a formal ceremony to include F-16 fighter jets from Jordan Air Force into the national forces fleet here at Sargodha Airbase. The fighter jets arrived from Pakistan’s middle-eastern friendly country Jordan and were included in PAF Nineteenth Squad. The fighter aircraft have been purchased from Jordan and they were in the use of the Royal Jordanian Air Force (RJAF). The ceremony started with the recitation of Holy Quran, Pakistan Army Chief General Raheel Sharif was the chief guest of the ceremony.

*VIDEO LINK. *
F-16 planes from Jordan included in PAF fleet - 21st May 2014

Reactions: Like Like:

6


----------



## Indus Falcon

Luftwaffe said:


> No point in getting MICA when AIM-120C is available for sale. As for EAF no western country is going to provide them with Active BVRs to be integrated with F-16s US will never allow it, their only chance is mig-29/35 and sukhoi series with R-77.



Bhai, Mica is cheaper and more capable than the AIM120C, thats why the question.

Secondly, MICA IR works with a passive dual waveband imaging infrared seeker. Different technology.
http://www.mbda-systems.com/mediagallery/files/mica_ds.pdf
http://www.mbda-systems.com/mediagallery/files/mica_ds.pdf

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Indus Falcon

chauvunist said:


> Actually Geo news is off air for the past 5 days after tussle between Cable operator's association and Geo representative's in Press conference but Geo Tez and other Geo channels are still on air(which i was hoping not seeing 'em again)..



Yeah unfortunately they are still transmitting on AsiaSat 7

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## chauvunist

Abu Nasar said:


> Yeah unfortunately they are still transmitting on AsiaSat 7



Govt firm backing of such traitor's is extremely annoying and they are only adding fuel to the Fire which might catch them as well..

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Indus Falcon

chauvunist said:


> Govt firm backing of such traitor's is extremely annoying and they are only adding fuel to the Fire which might catch them as well..


As much as I would like to see this govt finish their term, I'm sure they will shoot themselves in the foot and screw it up big time!


----------



## chauvunist

Abu Nasar said:


> As much as I would like to see this govt finish their term, I'm sure they will shoot themselves in the foot and screw it up big time!



Indeed,Going against Public opinion after Antagonizing Military establishment is something only fool would desire...

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## nomi007

hope ful about more f-16s

*سرگودھا: پاک فوج کے سربراہ جنرل راحیل شریف نے کہا ہے کہ پاک فضائیہ مشکل ترین وقت میں عوام کی امنگوں پر پورا اتری ہے ضرورت پڑنے پر بری فوج پاک فضائیہ کے شانہ بشانہ کھڑی ہوگی۔*

سرگودھا میں پاک فضائیہ کے مصحف ایئربیس پر اردن سے حاصل کئے گئے 13 ایف 16 جنگی طیاروں کی پاک فضائیہ کے فورتھ اسکواڈرن میں شمولیت کرنے کی پروقار تقریب منعقد ہوئی، جس کے مہمان خصوصی آرمی چیف جنرل راحیل شریف تھے، اس موقع پر پاک فضائیہ کے سربراہ ائیر چیف مارشل طاہر رفیق بٹ بھی موجود تھے۔ پاک فوج کے سربراہ جنرل راحیل شریف نے ایف 16 طیارے پاک فضائیہ کے حوالے کئے۔

پاک فضائیہ کے سربراہ ائیر چیف مارشل طاہر رفیق بٹ نے تقریب سے خطاب کرتے ہوئے کہا کہ پاک فضائیہ قوم کو درپیش چیلنجزسے نمٹنے کے لئے تیار ہے، مشکلات کے باوجود بیرونی جارحیت کا مقابلہ کریں گے، وہ ایف 16 طیاروں کی فراہمی پر اردن کی شاہی فضائیہ کے شکر گزار ہیں، ایف 16 طیاروں کی شمولیت سے پاک فضائیہ کو اندرونی اور بیرونی چیلنجز سے موثر طور پر نمٹنے میں مدد ملے گی۔

پاک فوج کے سربراہ جنرل راحیل شریف کا کہنا تھا کہ ملک کی مسلح افواج ملک کی حفاظت اور ترقی کے لئے پُرعزم ہیں۔ پاک فضائیہ مشکل ترین وقت میں عوام کی امنگوں پر پورا اتری ہے، ہم یہ بات سمجھتے ہیں کہ پاک فضائیہ کا اہم کردارہے، موجودہ دور میں فضائیہ کی اہمیت اور بھی بڑھ گئی ہے۔ جہاں بھی ضرورت پڑی تو پاک فضائیہ کے شانہ بشانہ کھڑے ہوں گے، انہوں نے کہا کہ اردن ہمارا عظیم دوست ہے، طیاروں کی فراہمی پر اردن فضائیہ کے شکر گزار ہیں۔

واضح رہے کہ پاکستان نے اردن سے 13 ایف 16 طیاروں کی خریداری کا معاہدہ کیا تھا، ان طیاروں کی شمولیت کے بعد پاک فضائیہ کے بیڑے میں ایف 16 طیاروں کی تعداد 76 ہوجائے گی۔

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Luftwaffe

Abu Nasar said:


> Bhai, Mica is cheaper and more capable than the AIM120C, thats why the question.
> 
> Secondly, MICA IR works with a passive dual waveband imaging infrared seeker. Different technology.
> http://www.mbda-systems.com/mediagallery/files/mica_ds.pdf



Forward question to PAF why opted for AIM-120C.


----------



## elitepilot09

If I'm not mistaken, the news anchor was quoted saying that 16 jets have been inducted from the RJAF.. correct? 3 more than the original 13 planned?


----------



## Gryphon

*Pakistan completes induction of 13 F-16 fighter jets into air force*

*PTI * | May 21, 2014

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan today completed the induction of 13 frontline F-16 fighter jets into its air force, augmenting its aerial defence capability. 

The new jets were bought from Jordon and have been made part of the fourth squadron of US-made F-16 planes. 

Army chief Gen Raheel Sharif, who was the chief guest at an impressive induction ceremony at Mushaf Airbase Sargodha in Punjab province, said Pakistan air force (PAF) had a crucial role in the defence of the country. 

He said these aircraft will further increase the professional capabilities of the air force. 

The army chief also said both army and air force were making cooperative efforts to get maximum results against war on terror. 

Pakistan air chief marshal Tahir Rafique Butt said addition of new squadron in the fleet will increase PAF's capacity in combating both internal as well as external challenges. 

He said Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif allowed to buy the jets despite financial hardships which shows commitment for the defence of the nation. 

Mushaf Airbase, dedicated to former air chief Mushaf Ali Mir, has strategic importance due to the stationing of country's F-16 fleet which is backbone of its air power. 

With the inclusion of the 13 jets, the total strength of the PAF F-16s has gone to 76. 

Media reports said Pakistan has purchased an entire F-16 squadron from Jordan, consisting of 12 A models and one B model. 

The jets "were in good condition since they had attained Mid-Life Update (MLU) and they would be providing service for another 20 years with almost 3,000 hours on average available to them for flying", according to a media report.

Pakistan completes induction of 13 F-16 fighter jets into air force - The Times of India

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## dexter

*PAF planes during the induction ceremony of Fourth Squadron of F-16 planes into PAF fleet at Mushaf Airbase in Sargodha...*

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## aliyusuf

There is a lot of confusion between what has been reported in the media and what has been observed by our keen eyed members from the pictures and footage that have so far been available.

These F-16 ADFs belong to the ex-RJAF Peace Falcon I batch ... that is the current accepted opinion.
F-16A Block 15 ADF12 220/2311997-1998
F-16B Block 15 ADF4 232/2351997-1998

Of which 2 A's and 1 B were attrition losses, if figures from Wikipedia can be trusted in this case.
That would leave 10 A's and 3 B's intact.
Then the mix of 12 A's and 1 B is not right and the media has got it wrong.
Some members have posted of having seen 2,3 or more Bs in the mix.

My opinion ...
Scenario I : It's really 10As and 3Bs --> 13
Scenario II : It's 10As and 3Bs from Peace Falcon I and 2As and 1B from Peace Falcon II --> 16 (Full Sqd)
Scenario II would also explain one poster having seen 4Bs in one of the currently on-going threads.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Windjammer



Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## Informant

FNFAL said:


> OLD....12 F-16As and one F-16B Block 15 version



4 B


----------



## aliyusuf

So this would mean we have revived the 4th Squadron? and both the 19th and the 4th Squadron are F-16 sqds?
So have we already gotten the additional F-16s from Jordan?


----------



## Jango

aliyusuf said:


> So this would mean we have revived the 4th Squadron? and both the 19th and the 4th Squadron are F-16 sqds?
> So have we already gotten the additional F-16s from Jordan?



No...only 19th sqd...the newscaster meant to say that the 19th sqd will be the fourth PAF sqd to have F-16's.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## dexter

*Chief of Army Staff General Raheel Sharif reviewing the Guard of Honor during the induction ceremony of Fourth Squadron of F-16 planes into PAF fleet at Mushaf Airbase in Sargodha...*
*















*

*General Raheel Sharif praises PAF, promises more cooperation between the two forces*
_By Saqib Nasir
Published: May 21, 2014_







*SARGODHA: Hours after the aerial bombing by military jet planes in North Waziristan on Wednesday killed at least 32 militants, Chief of Army Staff General Raheel Sharif was singing praises of the Pakistan Air Force and promised more cooperation between the two forces.*

“In the event of military conflict an effective air force creates a favourable fighting environment for the national military effort and provides a position of advantage,” he said while speaking at a ceremony in Sargodha that marked the re-equipment of 19 Squadron of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) with ex-Royal Jordanian F-16 aircrafts.

Commenting on the efforts against the fight against terrorism, the army chief further said that PAF and Pakistan Army were committed towards greater integration and cooperation in order to get the desire effects in this regard.

Praising the PAF, Sharif remarked that the “PAF has always maintained the highest state of operational preparedness and professional excellence.”

The army chief said that “this day will surely be remembered as a landmark in the history of_sherdils_ of PAF.”

He further added that the country’s air force has “measured up to the expectations of the people in safeguarding the sacred soil and skies of Pakistan.”

Speaking about the improvement in the relationship between the Pakistan and the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan as a result of the provision of new aircrafts, the COAS said that the “transfer of these fighting falcons on mutually beneficial terms has further strengthened the historic relationship.”






Chief of Army Staff General Raheel Shareef inspects the parade at the induction ceremony for new F-16 fighter air crafts at PAF base Mushaf. PHOTO: PAF

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## air marshal

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152444063329919









__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152444091259919

Reactions: Like Like:
11


----------



## Kompromat

air marshal said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152444063329919
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152444091259919



can i please get link of the first video?


----------



## Jango

Aeronaut said:


> can i please get link of the first video?



The whole event.

F-16 planes from Jordan included in PAF fleet - 21st May 2014

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## VelocuR

Awesome view!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## aliyusuf

Someone please spell it out for me ... it is clear that 16 F-16s were inducted to Sqd 19.
Are these all ex-RJAF?

I am a bit slow ... I know ... but please bear with me.


----------



## truthseeker2010

I was listening to the speech of air chief and he said that the induction of these jets was due to personal interest of COAS raheel sharif...... IMO he should not have said this.... I mean now the decision of what to induct and what not to will be done in GHQ..... if this is the case then what CAS is for.... he should then vacate his position.


----------



## Khaqan Humayun

cb4 said:


> I don't understand why Jordan would want to sell them. They are still flying old F-5s. Why not get rid of those first ?


*Pakistan buy many weapons from 3rd party some time mid life weapons there are 2 reason of buying from 3rd partya 1st if you do not have direct contact for example Pakistan has Israeli made machinery Pakistan got through China and others....... in 1986 Pakistan sent his Tank to Israel for upgrading through America........ 2nd If you think Maker will put conditions on buying so you get through 3rd party contract how can we say these are use less when we know Turkey has same technology to upgrade F16 as U.S has, Many time Pak buy through K.S.A we have Russian weapons Israeli thing through 3rd Party....
Arab Countries Facilitate us ........Thanks to Allah we have one door open.
Always see the positive... 
We need to upgrade JF17 up to the level of F16 and im hope full soon Thunder will be on peek point but for that time PAF is to level the Balance.......
*



aliyusuf said:


> Someone please spell it out for me ... it is clear that 16 F-16s were inducted to Sqd 19.
> Are these all ex-RJAF?
> 
> I am a bit slow ... I know ... but please bear with me.


*Royal.Jordanian.Air.Force*

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## nomi007

Luftwaffe said:


> Forward question to PAF why opted for AIM-120C.


we are also using 
*R-Darter*
bvr more reliable and can be use on both *eastern and western* platforms


----------



## PiyaraPakistan

truthseeker2010 said:


> I was listening to the speech of air chief and he said that the induction of these jets was due to personal interest of COAS raheel sharif...... IMO he should not have said this.... I mean now the decision of what to induct and what not to will be done in GHQ..... if this is the case then what CAS is for.... he should then vacate his position.


you r perceiving it wrong dear, everybody is doing their work as per their Job profile and authorization.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Indus Falcon

truthseeker2010 said:


> I was listening to the speech of air chief and he said that the induction of these jets was due to personal interest of COAS raheel sharif...... IMO he should not have said this.... I mean now the decision of what to induct and what not to will be done in GHQ..... if this is the case then what CAS is for.... he should then vacate his position.


Bhai let me give you a bit of background. PAF approached COAS to buy these birds, BUT PAF didn't have the financial resources. COAS made it happen. He arranged the funds. Hope this clears the matter.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## VCheng

Abu Nasar said:


> Bhai let me give you a bit of background. PAF approached COAS to buy these birds, BUT PAF didn't have the financial resources. *COAS made it happen. He arranged the funds.* Hope this clears the matter.



Was this one of the demands place directly to the Finance Minister when he was imperiously summoned to the GHQ by the COAS in violation of proper procedures?


----------



## Indus Falcon

VCheng said:


> Was this one of the demands place directly to the Finance Minister when he was imperiously summoned to the GHQ by the COAS in violation of proper procedures?


Could be, not sure. All I know is, he made it happen.

Btw, who are you? Which alphabet soup agency? You smell like CIA, NSA, Centcom, DIA, who?

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Edevelop



Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## VCheng

Abu Nasar said:


> Could be, not sure. All I know is, he made it happen.
> 
> Btw, who are you? Which alphabet soup agency? You smell like CIA, NSA, Centcom, DIA, who?



Your computer has smell-o-vision? 

=======================================

Back to the topic, major purchases like this F-16 deal, will strain the already over-stretched national resources even further.


----------



## Indus Falcon

VCheng said:


> Your computer has smell-o-vision?


Yes it does. But you didn't answer my question?


----------



## Luftwaffe

nomi007 said:


> we are also using
> *R-Darter*
> bvr more reliable and can be use on both *eastern and western* platforms



@Abu Nasar is asking why not opt for cheaper price tag MICA.


----------



## Thorough Pro

Are you self appointed custodian of the procedural log when it comes to Pak Military?



VCheng said:


> Was this one of the demands place directly to the Finance Minister when he was imperiously summoned to the GHQ by the COAS in violation of proper procedures?


----------



## Donatello

Luftwaffe said:


> @Abu Nasar is asking why not opt for cheaper price tag MICA.



While MICA provides added diversity, it might be difficult to procure from French, plus AIM120 comes tested and integrated on the F-16s.

Maybe in future PAF can look at it once more results for MICA are clear.


JF-17 is secured in the form that any emerging Chinese missile can be integrated. So no problems there. For F-16s, AIM9X should be the priority.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Why am I not amused by the F16 these are only block A/B , 80's era technology with out the MLU etc

I mean there is so much excitement , when we all were waiting for J10B , I know I was we were about to get brand new Toys , with wrapper and seals on the planes and yet we opted for F16 there were used

If these were F16 UAE , versions I would have said yes , great addition

I still don't understand , why no J10B , new fighter new equipment , new engine , and brand new radar etc (evolving avionics)

How is 16 better then 36 !!

Lets use the car analogy to compare ... had we bought a 80's car vs car made in 2014

Example Car made in 80's





Vs


Car made in 2014







We can argue that these both models are same class etc and performance level , but really the model from recent year will certainly have more "capability" and upside


----------



## Rajput_Pakistani

Number 19 squadron has been *Re-Equipped* with Ex-RJAF F16s. Previously if i am not mistake, No.19 squadron was equipped with F-7P, and it was OCU. 

Now your OCU has been upgraded from F7P---> F16.
Isn't it a giant leap?

Your pilots will horn their skills on more modern plane before going to main operational unit.
It will save precious flight hours of your MLUs and Block52s.

God knows what is wrong with us people, really disappointed over many posts in this thread.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Quwa

Rajput_Pakistani said:


> Number 19 squadron has been *Re-Equipped* with Ex-RJAF F16s. Previously if i am not mistake, No.19 squadron was equipped with F-7P, and it was OCU.
> 
> Now your OCU has been upgraded from F7P---> F16.
> Isn't it a giant leap?
> 
> Your pilots will horn their skills on more modern plane before going to main operational unit.
> It will save precious flight hours of your MLUs and Block52s.
> 
> God knows what is wrong with us people, really disappointed over many posts in this thread.


Well said and that is point some are having difficulty comprehending. These used F-16s came in cheap, certainly cheaper than JF-17, and they replaced F-7s. I'm sure every F-7 squadron commander would love his unit transition to F-16s, and used F-16A/Bs are the PAF's best bet to reach that goal. I'm sure the PAF is looking pursue as many F-16A/Bs as it can, and it wouldn't surprise me if our F-7s are replaced by F-16A/Bs and JF-17 Block-2 over the next 3-5 years.

Attention can then go into making JF-17 into a much more robust fighter. With the F-16s acting as a buffer the PAF can develop the Block-3 into something comparable to Gripen NG. They can incorporate composites, increase range and payload, adapt for CFTs, etc. The PAF can develop the JF-17 from what was originally a F-7 successor to a true Mirage successor, i.e. a strike-focused multi-role fighter. Will this raise the price-point of the JF-17? Certainly, but off-of-service F-16A/Bs can be our 'cheap fighter' - the JF-17 Block-3 can be our quality fighter.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Informant

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Why am I not amused by the F16 these are only block A/B , 80's era technology with out the MLU etc
> 
> I mean there is so much excitement , when we all were waiting for J10B , I know I was we were about to get brand new Toys , with wrapper and seals on the planes and yet we opted for F16 there were used
> 
> If these were F16 UAE , versions I would have said yes , great addition
> 
> I still don't understand , why no J10B , new fighter new equipment , new engine , and brand new radar etc (evolving avionics)
> 
> How is 16 better then 36 !!
> 
> Lets use the car analogy to compare ... had we bought a 80's car vs car made in 2014
> 
> Example Car made in 80's
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vs
> 
> 
> Car made in 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We can argue that these both models are same class etc and performance level , but really the model from recent year will certainly have more "capability" and upside



Where do i begin with you? Forget it.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## fatman17

*Final ex-Jordanian F-16s Delivered to Pakistan AF*
Posted on: May 21st, 2014



Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt, Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Chief of the Air Staff, plus His Excellency Nawaf Khalifa Araieh, Jordanian Ambassador to Pakistan, together with the PAF pilots who flew the aircraft in from Jordan, pose for a group photograph at PAF Base Mushaf-Sargodha on April 27 following the delivery of the first five of 13 ex-Royal Jordanian Air Force F-16A/Bs to the PAF. The remaining eight aircraft arrived at the base today. PAF

DELIVERY OF the remaining eight of the 13 ex-Royal Jordanian Air Force (RJAF) F-16A/Bs being acquired by the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) was completed today, May 21. The aircraft were flown in to PAF Base Mushaf-Sargodha, joining the initial five ex-RJAF aircraft which, as previously reported on _AFD_, had arrived at the base on April 27.

All 13 of the new deliveries will be operated by 19 Squadron ‘Sherdils’, which was officially re-formed at Mushaf as an F-16 unit on the same day as the first five aircraft arrived. With the final aircraft now delivered, a formal induction ceremony was held today, with Army chief General Raheel Sharif as the chief guest.He said these aircraft will further increase the capabilities of the PAF and also noted that both the Army and Air Force are making co-operative efforts to get maximum results against war on terror.

PAF Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt, Chief of the Air Staff, said that the addition of the new squadron will increase PAF’s capacity in combating both internal as well as external challenges.

The precise mix of F-16As and ’Bs in the package of 13 aircraft remains unconfirmed. As we reported previously, it was said to have involved 12 F-16As and one F-16B, but when the first five arrived, it included two F-16Bs and three F-16As. Whether all of today’s arrivals were all F-16As has yet to be confirmed. AFD-

Dave Allport

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## MastanKhan

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Why am I not amused by the F16 these are only block A/B , 80's era technology with out the MLU etc
> 
> I mean there is so much excitement , when we all were waiting for J10B , I know I was we were about to get brand new Toys , with wrapper and seals on the planes and yet we opted for F16 there were used
> 
> If these were F16 UAE , versions I would have said yes , great addition
> 
> I still don't understand , why no J10B , new fighter new equipment , new engine , and brand new radar etc (evolving avionics)
> 
> How is 16 better then 36 !!
> 
> Lets use the car analogy to compare ... had we bought a 80's car vs car made in 2014


 
Hi,

It does not work like that with aircraft-----. The prime life of a car is 5 to 8 years---for fighter aircraft like F16-----it is 50 maybe 60 years----with one MLU-----.

So---your comparison does not look to be fair------.



Rajput_Pakistani said:


> Number 19 squadron has been *Re-Equipped* with Ex-RJAF F16s. Previously if i am not mistake, No.19 squadron was equipped with F-7P, and it was OCU.
> 
> Now your OCU has been upgraded from F7P---> F16.
> Isn't it a giant leap?
> 
> Your pilots will horn their skills on more modern plane before going to main operational unit.
> It will save precious flight hours of your MLUs and Block52s.
> 
> God knows what is wrong with us people, really disappointed over many posts in this thread.


 
Hi,

Thank you---smart man----.

Reactions: Like Like:

3


----------



## Myth_buster_1

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Why am I not amused by the F16 these are only block A/B , 80's era technology with out the MLU etc
> 
> I mean there is so much excitement , when we all were waiting for J10B , I know I was we were about to get brand new Toys , with wrapper and seals on the planes and yet we opted for F16 there were used
> 
> If these were F16 UAE , versions I would have said yes , great addition
> 
> I still don't understand , why no J10B , new fighter new equipment , new engine , and brand new radar etc (evolving avionics)
> 
> How is 16 better then 36 !!
> 
> Lets use the car analogy to compare ... had we bought a 80's car vs car made in 2014
> 
> Example Car made in 80's
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vs
> 
> 
> Car made in 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We can argue that these both models are same class etc and performance level , but really the model from recent year will certainly have more "capability" and upside





very bad analogy. 

These F-16 cost prob $5-10 million per unit which can fire Aim-120 and is better then PAF non upgrade block15. Later on PAF may chose to upgrade them to increase its capability. So its a very cost effective deal.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Windjammer



Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## fatman17

F-16 Squadrons.

No.5 - F-16C/D
No.9 - F-16A/B MLU
No.11- F-16A/B MLU
No.-19 - F-16A/B ADF

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Windjammer

fatman17 said:


> F-16 Squadrons.
> 
> No.5 - F-16C/D
> No.9 - F-16A/B MLU
> No.11- F-16A/B MLU
> No.-19 - F-16A/B ADF



I believe No 11 is also the OCU for the F-16 A/B Squadrons.

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## Windjammer

Couple of things to note, the F-16s now certainly look the works compared to when they arrived obviously getting cleaned and touched up with markings and emblems applied. Fresh paint visible on the RWR, can anyone point out what's the steel ball looking instrument below the RWR. @Oscar, @Munir @fatman1

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Irfan Baloch

Rajput_Pakistani said:


> Your pilots will *horn *their skills on more modern plane before going to main operational unit.
> It will save precious flight hours of your MLUs and Block52s.
> 
> God knows what is wrong with us people, really disappointed over many posts in this thread.


F-16s have best horns even without the MLU
people dont know that..

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Windjammer

Irfan Baloch said:


> F-16s have best horns even without the MLU
> people dont know that..



Pity they didn't put rearview mirrors in it.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Jango

Windjammer said:


> Couple of things to note, the F-16s now certainly look the works compared to when they arrived obviously getting cleaned and touched up with markings and emblems applied. Fresh paint visible on the RWR, can anyone point out what's the steel ball looking instrument below the RWR. @Oscar, @Munir @fatman1



That's the light...used for night ID of unidentified aircraft.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Windjammer

nuclearpak said:


> That's the light...used for night ID of unidentified aircraft.



Is that a MLU thing, don't recall seeing it on older models.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Jango

Windjammer said:


> Is that a MLU thing, don't recall seeing it on older models.



A feature of the ADF models.



> A 150,000 candlepower night identification spotlight was installed on the port side of the nose (below and in front of the cockpit) to aid in the identification of nighttime intruders. The aircraft were equipped to carry 600 (US) gallon (2,271 liter) external drop tanks, and to carry 6 BVR missiles such as the AIM-7 Sparrow or AIM-120AMRAAM.
> 
> F-16 Versions - F-16 ADF

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Windjammer

Got it.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## truthseeker2010

Abu Nasar said:


> Bhai let me give you a bit of background. PAF approached COAS to buy these birds, BUT PAF didn't have the financial resources. COAS made it happen. He arranged the funds. Hope this clears the matter.



Why did he approached COAS and not directly finance minister?, is he subordinate to COAS?, i thought both were 4 stars and both forces have separate budgets.....



PiyaraPakistan said:


> you r perceiving it wrong dear, everybody is doing their work as per their Job profile and authorization.



i hope that is the case but in pak that's not usually how things work .....


----------



## Manticore

*Analysis: Quest for F-16 jets takes PAF to Mideast*
Mirza KhurramShahzad
Published about 12 hours ago





File photo
WITH the inclusion of a new squadron of F-16s in the fleet, the Pakistan Air Force continues its quest for sought-after fighter aircraft.
Analysis: Quest for F-16 jets takes PAF to Mideast - Pakistan - DAWN.COM
The PAF recently purchased over a dozen American-built F-16s from Jordan to boost its strength. Eleven of these aircraft joined the PAF squad at the Mushaf airbase in Sargodha on Wednesday. With this, the total number of F-16 aircraft in the PAF is said to have reached around 80, thought to be more than sufficient to lead an aerial offence or defence tactic.

Though earlier it enjoyed supremacy in South Asia, the PAF was hit with financial constraints during the 1990s, and hardware restrictions were imposed on it by the US and its Western allies due to Pakistan’s nuclear programme. Specifically, the refusal by the US to deliver 28 F-16s despite receiving a hefty price of $685 million hit the steady development of the PAF. This prompted Pakistan to evolve an alternative strategy: this is the first time the PAF has purchased F-16 fighting falcons from a Middle Eastern country.

Pakistan not only acquired the maximum number of Mirage aircraft to build the world’s largest fleet of the 40-year-old warplane but also upgraded available F-16s with the new technology of Block 52 from Turkey. It also equipped its frontline squads with the latest avionics system, Beyond Vision Range missiles and air-to-air refuelling systems. The Mirages were upgraded at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, Kamra, and after overhauling, these planes are now said to be serving to the maximum required standards.

The PAF also manufactured its own JF-17 Thunders with the help of China and inducted about 50 planes in the fleet. The plan now is to induct up to 200-250 in the squad over a couple of years as production has been doubled. Previously, Pakistan was producing around 10 JF-17 Thunder planes in a year; now, annual production stands at 20.

“Our fleet has a modest number of fighting falcons now. This includes old but overhauled and very effective Mirages, new F-16s with Block 52 technology, JF-17 Thunders, and the latest missile and avionics systems,” said PAF spokesperson Air Commodore Tariq Mahmood.

“The recently inducted F-16 squadron from Jordan has been purchased at a nominal price. Similarly the cost of co-produced JF-17 Thunder is almost one-third in comparison with any modern aircraft of its category.”

But former vice chief of air staff Air Marshal Shahid Lateef says the F-16 squadron from the Royal Jordan Air Force was available at a low price because its technology was getting old.

“The A&B version of F-16 aircraft, which we have just bought from Jordan, was available to us at a low price because Jordan was also upgrading their fleet to the C&D version of F-16. The A&B version of F-16s is now an old technology.”

Despite the PAF’s strategic expansion or upgrade, it remains far behind the Indian Air Force as far as numbers are concerned.

“India has an air force that is three times bigger than that of Pakistan,” says Lateef. “Their budget is six times higher. They have recently ordered 126 Rafale jets from France and have well over 1,000 fighter planes. We are no match for them in numbers.”

But Mahmood insists the difference in the number of planes and weapons becomes immaterial when human resource delivers better results.

“Besides technology, our main weapon is the motivation of our human force,” he argues.

“They know very well how to fight against an enemy three times bigger, and our pilots and engineers have proved themselves better in the past. Chief of the Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt attaches great importance to human resource, realistic training, empowerment at field commanders level and progressive approach to tackle every challenge.”

The proof of the pudding, they say, is in the eating.

_Published in Dawn, May 22nd, 2014_

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Irfan Baloch

truthseeker2010 said:


> Why did he approached COAS and not directly finance minister?, is he subordinate to COAS?, i thought both were 4 stars and both forces have separate budgets.....
> 
> 
> .....



you are right. but it seems like he asked for a bit of army's defence budget (provided the news is true) as you know army has the biggest slice and then its PAF and then the Navy. 

PAF is running support missions for the army so it made sense to give up a bit of its funds to PAF (again if there is any truth in this news)



Windjammer said:


> Pity they didn't put rearview mirrors in it.


seems like a G-4 cockpit with mirrors? picture from a flight SIM

it might make sense to have them? saves the pilot to move his head all the way back while looking out for threats

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Manticore

Jordanian F-16 Jets to Enhance Capability of PAF: COAS
The induction of 13 fighter jets, which attained Mid-Life Update (MLU) and have capacity of providing service for another 20 years, into PAF fleet propelled its tally of F-16s to 79

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Donatello

So there were 16 units transferred then?


----------



## Windjammer

Irfan Baloch said:


> you are right. but it seems like he asked for a bit of army's defence budget (provided the news is true) as you know army has the biggest slice and then its PAF and then the Navy.
> 
> PAF is running support missions for the army so it made sense to give up a bit of its funds to PAF (again if there is any truth in this news)
> 
> 
> seems like a G-4 cockpit with mirrors? picture from a flight SIM
> 
> it might make sense to have them? saves the pilot to move his head all the way back while looking out for threats



Irfan bahi, a lot of aircraft have them including our JF-17 but i guess in the likes of F-16, the pilot view is such that it probably wasn't felt neccesary or perhaps the frameless canopy didn't have provisions for the mirrors.

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## Luftwaffe

truthseeker2010 said:


> Why did he approached COAS and not directly finance minister?, is he subordinate to COAS?, i thought both were 4 stars and both forces have separate budgets.....



ACM himself approached finance minister dar twice in 2013, it is wrong information that COAS was approached.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## HAIDER

*WITH the inclusion of a new squadron of F-16s in the fleet, the Pakistan Air Force continues its quest for sought-after fighter aircraft.*

The PAF recently purchased over a dozen American-built F-16s from Jordan to boost its strength. Eleven of these aircraft joined the PAF squad at the Mushaf airbase in Sargodha on Wednesday. With this, the total number of F-16 aircraft in the PAF is said to have reached around 80, thought to be more than sufficient to lead an aerial offence or defence tactic.

Though earlier it enjoyed supremacy in South Asia, the PAF was hit with financial constraints during the 1990s, and hardware restrictions were imposed on it by the US and its Western allies due to Pakistan’s nuclear programme. Specifically, the refusal by the US to deliver 28 F-16s despite receiving a hefty price of $685 million hit the steady development of the PAF. This prompted Pakistan to evolve an alternative strategy: this is the first time the PAF has purchased F-16 fighting falcons from a Middle Eastern country.

Pakistan not only acquired the maximum number of Mirage aircraft to build the world’s largest fleet of the 40-year-old warplane but also upgraded available F-16s with the new technology of Block 52 from Turkey. It also equipped its frontline squads with the latest avionics system, Beyond Vision Range missiles and air-to-air refuelling systems. The Mirages were upgraded at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, Kamra, and after overhauling, these planes are now said to be serving to the maximum required standards.

The PAF also manufactured its own JF-17 Thunders with the help of China and inducted about 50 planes in the fleet. The plan now is to induct up to 200-250 in the squad over a couple of years as production has been doubled. Previously, Pakistan was producing around 10 JF-17 Thunder planes in a year; now, annual production stands at 20.

“Our fleet has a modest number of fighting falcons now. This includes old but overhauled and very effective Mirages, new F-16s with Block 52 technology, JF-17 Thunders, and the latest missile and avionics systems,” said PAF spokesperson Air Commodore Tariq Mahmood.

“The recently inducted F-16 squadron from Jordan has been purchased at a nominal price. Similarly the cost of co-produced JF-17 Thunder is almost one-third in comparison with any modern aircraft of its category.”

But former vice chief of air staff Air Marshal Shahid Lateef says the F-16 squadron from the Royal Jordan Air Force was available at a low price because its technology was getting old.

“The A&B version of F-16 aircraft, which we have just bought from Jordan, was available to us at a low price because Jordan was also upgrading their fleet to the C&D version of F-16. The A&B version of F-16s is now an old technology.”

Despite the PAF’s strategic expansion or upgrade, it remains far behind the Indian Air Force as far as numbers are concerned.

“India has an air force that is three times bigger than that of Pakistan,” says Lateef. “Their budget is six times higher. They have recently ordered 126 Rafale jets from France and have well over 1,000 fighter planes. We are no match for them in numbers.”

But Mahmood insists the difference in the number of planes and weapons becomes immaterial when human resource delivers better results.

“Besides technology, our main weapon is the motivation of our human force,” he argues.

“They know very well how to fight against an enemy three times bigger, and our pilots and engineers have proved themselves better in the past. Chief of the Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt attaches great importance to human resource, realistic training, empowerment at field commanders level and progressive approach to tackle every challenge.”

The proof of the pudding, they say, is in the eating.

_Published in Dawn, May 22nd, 2014_

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Indus Falcon

Luftwaffe said:


> ACM himself approached finance minister dar twice in 2013, it is wrong information that COAS was approached.


You should have added "and nothing happened"


----------



## Luftwaffe

Abu Nasar said:


> You should have added "and nothing happened"



I am just giving correct information as to approaching, whether finances were allotted or not that is another discussion but there is no proof of approaching COAS unless there is any credible link... 

COAS also met dar regarding Defense budget March 8, 2014 but air force specific I don't believe so.


----------



## Indus Falcon

Luftwaffe said:


> I am just giving correct information as to approaching, whether finances were allotted or not that is another discussion but there is no proof of approaching COAS unless there is any credible link...
> 
> COAS also met dar regarding Defense budget March 8, 2014 but air force specific I don't believe so.



Right next time my ex-CO tells me something, right from the horses mouth / GHQ, I'll keep my mouth shut!


----------



## Luftwaffe

Abu Nasar said:


> Right next time my ex-CO tells me something, right from the horses mouth / GHQ, I'll keep my mouth shut!



On my side there is no chawal as well, believe it or leave it...PAF got needed Funds for F-16s visiting dar twice that's all.

We would see when dar gives funds to COAS for T-129s for PAA instead of F-16s. Lets get back at topic.


----------



## Indus Falcon

Luftwaffe said:


> On my side there is no chawal as well, believe it or leave it...PAF got needed Funds for F-16s visiting dar twice that's al.
> 
> We would see when dar gives funds to COAS for T-129s for PAA instead of F-16s. Lets get back at topic.



Believe what ever fairy tale you want to my friend! You are entitled to your opinion!


----------



## Indus Falcon

On the MICA, the reason I asked is, because it brings a new capability to the F16, an IR BVR missile. Nonetheless I just found out that it costs more.

1) MICA-IR - per piece cost is approx Euro 1.95m ($2.67m), which is more expensive than the AIM120C-7 ($1.2m ~ $1.5m max)

2) Integration is not an issue since it has already been integrated with the Blk60.


----------



## Zhukov

PAF Strategy is simple and understandable. Replace Old Aircrafts with dirt cheap and modestly capable JF17. While Fill in the gap with F16s temporarily while waiting for a feasible 5th gen platform like J31 from China. 
Spending in 4th gen tech is waste of resources in my opinnion for tight bughet like us.Those sukhois will be outdated in a few years like f16 and other 4th gen. Indian Establisent have a habbit to waste too much resources on pointless defence projects for reasons i cannot understand, possibly political. I cannot understand why on earth are they spending all that money on a 4th gen platform Rafale when they have the mighty sukhoi flanker for present need and PAKFA as a perfect future Platform. as i always say Just to sustain that POWERFUL image and satisfying Nation and Parliment to justify defence spendings .


----------



## Zhukov

ghilzai said:


> PAF has been nothing but a disappointment, you will always face disappointments when young minds are not given chance and the positions on top level are occupied hereditary.
> 
> We been waiting for 3rd squadron for two years and god knows if block 11 will really come in June.
> 
> Bad and short sighted planning, absolute waste of money we haven't got.



O mighty rational one, Armies are commanded by veterans not YOUNG ones. And even indian analysys praise Pakistan Armed forces in this aspect the we we manage our forces in limited budget. 
JF17 is not light sabre like you believe. thay people who initiated that project know better then you and me about its procurement.
Stay Calm. Only way we can counter Indian Sukhoi 30 Flanker is by F16 Falcons. Now that we have access to american BVRs as well.
Thunder is to replace F7 and mirages. Not as prime air superiority fighter. That remains to battle proven Fighting Falcon F16


----------



## ghilzai

ahmadnawaz22 said:


> O mighty rational one, Armies are commanded by veterans not YOUNG ones. And even indian analysys praise Pakistan Armed forces in this aspect the we we manage our forces in limited budget.
> JF17 is not light sabre like you believe. thay people who initiated that project know better then you and me about its procurement.
> Stay Calm. Only way we can counter Indian Sukhoi 30 Flanker is by F16 Falcons. Now that we have access to american BVRs as well.
> Thunder is to replace F7 and mirages. Not as prime air superiority fighter. That remains to battle proven Fighting Falcon F16



Who the fuk is India?, please do tell me, why the obsession and comparison with India, at-least try to compare with others there are plenty about.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## truthseeker2010

Luftwaffe said:


> ACM himself approached finance minister dar twice in 2013, it is wrong information that COAS was approached.



How much did these 13 jets cost?


----------



## Manticore

so, are these f16s carrying APG-66A?

Radar Ranges Of Different Fighters | Page 8
grifo radar specs


----------



## elitepilot09

Manticore said:


> so, are these f16s carrying APG-66A?



There are a couple questions still in the air about this and other things:

1. Which radar do the ex-RJAF F-16's carry

2. Which engines are they outfitted with and how many hours remain on them

3. Whether these planes have underwent the MLU

4. How much, on average, did each plane cost

I for one would not trust the information provided by anyone except senior PAF officers. However, something tells me that even if they were asked this, they would insist the technicalities are classified.



com123 said:


> So PAF will replace the 150 JF-17s to replace 138+ F-7Ps and F-7PGs along with 50 A-5Cs. I am sure PAF can easily sell their F-7Ps to Muslim countries operating these aircraft and also F-7PGs to BDs which really like these aircraft. Also Mirage III/V might be replaced by used Block-15s about 200 of them.



The quoted poster is most definitely Nishan_101..


----------



## aliyusuf

com123 said:


> I think there were 16 F-16s in Jordan fleet then why PAF bought just 13 of them or they are hiding the real numbers???



If we go back to member @air marshal's post #1120 and watch the ARY video ... between 3:00 to 3:30 ... it is mentioned that the current strength of ex-RJAF planes is more than 16 and talks with other countries on acquiring more is going on.

The first video posted was from Duniya and it was clearly being stated that 16 F-16s were being inducted.

Member @Munir has posted an article from dawn which states on Wednesday 11 F-16s arrived from Jordan and total strength of F-16s has reached around 80.

Moderator @Manticore has posted, I forget where, 16 have been acquired and current F-16 strength is 79.

One thing is certain ... the initial information about 12A's and 1B is dead wrong.
4B's have been observed.
Jordan's Peace Falcon I ... had only 10A's and 3B's intact from originally inducted 12A's and 4B's.

I think for us lesser not so well connected mortals ... we have to be content with these tidbits and connect the dots ourselves.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Manticore

aliyusuf said:


> If we go back to member @air marshal's post #1120 and watch the ARY video ... between 3:00 to 3:30 ... it is mentioned that the current strength of ex-RJAF planes is more than 16 and talks with other countries on acquiring more is going on.
> 
> The first video posted was from Duniya and it was clearly being stated that 16 F-16s were being inducted.
> 
> Member @Munir has posted an article from dawn which states on Wednesday 11 F-16s arrived from Jordan and total strength of F-16s has reached around 80.
> 
> Moderator @Manticore has posted, I forget where, 16 have been acquired and current F-16 strength is 79.
> 
> One thing is certain ... the initial information about 12A's and 1B is dead wrong.
> 4B's have been observed.
> Jordan's Peace Falcon I ... had only 10A's and 3B's intact from originally inducted 12A's and 4B's.
> 
> I think for us lesser not so well connected mortals ... we have to be content with these tidbits and connect the dots ourselves.


strength of the sq is 16 -- doesnt mean that all 16 are from jordan

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## elitepilot09

com123 said:


> But I have that 16 F-16s are there which is true. Also there are other countries that are operating F-16s Block-15s and they are looking for customers like PAF willing to buy them.* I think PAF should be looking to sell their A-5Cs and F-7Ps to any other country(North Korea)* to at least make some money for JF-17 induction along with F-7PG to BDs.
> 
> Also 200 F-16s would be good to replace all of the Mirages.
> 
> Also if Egypt and other North African countries would join in the program then PAF can easily gain Mirage Vs from them which can be used as spares.



Yeaaaah......


----------



## Shahryaar Rehman

Thats Great


----------



## Windjammer

*Not sure if you guys noticed that during the flypast, the outgoing F-7 performed a vertical Charlie.
*

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## Sinnerman108

Windjammer said:


> *Not sure if you guys noticed that during the flypast, the outgoing F-7 performed a vertical Charlie.
> *



We never appreciated the Mig21 enough.


----------



## Windjammer

salman108 said:


> We never appreciated the Mig21 enough.



Well it's not being phased out or anything and the PG version stands it's own ground.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Zhukov

ghilzai said:


> Who the fuk is India?, please do tell me, why the obsession and comparison with India, at-least try to compare with others there are plenty about.


Calm down joe. India is the only country that poses significant threat to Pakistan. Who else can rival Pakistan in this region. Afghanistan? Iran? Bangladesh?.
We have no other security threats than India and to some extant US. But any threat from US can only be resolved diplomatically and impossible militarily exept after blowing away half of our country.
India is the only significant rival to Pakistan Militarily. We are already above other military threats like afghanistan.
So yes. Any PAF strategy will focus india Alone.And mind it that is 4th strongest armed force of the world india


----------



## Gryphon

According to Jane's Defence Weekly,



> *The PAF confirmed that the 13 F-16s to be eventually inducted comprise 11 F-16As and two F-16Bs. All were originally Block 15 models, but have undergone mid-life upgrades though no further information was disclosed on their weapon systems and/or avionics.
> 
> A PAF official told IHS Jane's that with the induction of the five Jordanian F-16s, the PAF now had 76 F-16s. These include 18 F-16C/D Block 52 versions; the remaining 58 are all of the A/ B variants.*

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Windjammer

@Munir, wonder if this is one of the ex-Jordanian F-16s being worked on.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Munir

Windjammer said:


> @Munir, wonder if this is one of the ex-Jordanian F-16s being worked on.



If you ask me this is not a new Jordanian one but mlu'ed one parkes indide the Shahbaz hangars...

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## rockstar08

Munir said:


> If you ask me this is not a new Jordanian one but mlu'ed one parkes indide the Shahbaz hangars...



will these newly buy F-16s become blk 52 ? like we are on process of our 36 ?


----------



## Indus Falcon

ahmadnawaz22 said:


> Calm down joe. India is the only country that poses significant threat to Pakistan. Who else can rival Pakistan in this region. Afghanistan? Iran? Bangladesh?.
> We have no other security threats than India and to some extant US. But any threat from US can only be resolved diplomatically and impossible militarily exept after blowing away half of our country.
> India is the only significant rival to Pakistan Militarily. We are already above other military threats like afghanistan.
> So yes. Any PAF strategy will focus india Alone.And mind it that is *4th strongest armed force of the world india*


4th Largest = Yes. 
4th Strongest = No

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Nitin Goyal

why jordan selling these jets at nominal price when they have 20 years left in them ?


----------



## Donatello

Nitin Goyal said:


> why jordan selling these jets at nominal price when they have 20 years left in them ?



Budget problems, plus who are they going to fight? They might procure another fighter later on, and they still are retaining the newer F-16s.


----------



## Quwa

Nitin Goyal said:


> why jordan selling these jets at nominal price when they have 20 years left in them ?


US persuasion goes a long way in making things happen (or not happen).

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Windjammer

* PAF pilots who ferried the Jordanian F-16s to Pakistan pose with other VIPs before departure.*

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## Jango

@Windjammer...all these pilots are wearing 19 sqn patches. But previously 19 sqn did not have F-16's.

So did these pilots first get F-16 training or were they deputed from other squadrons?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Donatello

nuclearpak said:


> @Windjammer...all these pilots are wearing 19 sqn patches. But previously 19 sqn did not have F-16's.
> 
> So did these pilots first get F-16 training or were they deputed from other squadrons?



Good question, they might have been deputed. Perhaps underwent training within PAF. If they underwent training, then that indicates the deal was in the making for 6 months or more, since they need that much time to get to know how to fly a new type of aircraft.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Windjammer

nuclearpak said:


> @Windjammer...all these pilots are wearing 19 sqn patches. But previously 19 sqn did not have F-16's.
> 
> So did these pilots first get F-16 training or were they deputed from other squadrons?



You know i raised the same point that the squadron must have already transitioned to F-16s but i believe @Munir was of opinion that they must have deputed from other squadrons, i also read something to effect that PAF has about three pilots to each aircraft.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Shahryaar Rehman

Now Pakistan Taking Steps To Success


----------



## Imran Khan

Shahryaar Rehman said:


> Now Pakistan Taking Steps To Success


 buying scrap of other countries like 32 years old F-16s are success ?


----------



## nomi007

Imran Khan said:


> buying scrap of other countries like 32 years old F-16s are success ?


apni economy dekho pehle
inhe tussi bill gates

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Munir

Windjammer said:


> You know i raised the same point that the squadron must have already transitioned to F-16s but i believe @Munir was of opinion that they must have deputed from other squadrons, i also read something to effect that PAF has about three pilots to each aircraft.



@Windjammer, as far as I know there are regular PAF personnel posted in Jordan. The Airforce branch is well known part for us.I heard several years ago that we maintained and trained Jordan military to fly and maintain their F16's. You think we just have that much personnel? Yes we do. You will see double number of people compared with others. And each of them is to be worthy double of the person in the west. It is maybe shocking to some but we can do a lot more magic then often thought.

@Windjammer : You just amaze me with these pics. 

@Imran Khan : Do not underestimate the upgrade of these after they landed on Pak soil. You get block52 for price less then Jf17 block 1! I was not happy in the beginning but now I know what we can do I am favoring one more squadron. And one refueler.

Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## Windjammer

Munir said:


> @Windjammer, as far as I know there are regular PAF personnel posted in Jordan. The Airforce branch is well known part for us.I heard several years ago that we maintained and trained Jordan military to fly and maintain their F16's. You think we just have that much personnel? Yes we do. You will see double number of people compared with others. And each of them is to be worthy double of the person in the west. It is maybe shocking to some but we can do a lot more magic then often thought.


@Munir, as a PAF guy once told me, in the West, a lot of training is done on simulators, where as in PAF they have to go up in the air.... or as the saying goes, actual training is better than coaching.


> @Windjammer : You just amaze me with these pics.



Bus sir, aap ki badhshai mein hakoomat kar rahey hain.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Munir

Windjammer said:


> @Munir, as a PAF guy once told me, in the West, a lot of training is done on simulators, where as in PAF they have to go up in the air.... or as the saying goes, actual training is better than coaching.
> 
> 
> Bus sir, aap ki badhshai mein hakoomat kar rahey hain.



I think the training in the west is extremely focussed on tactics in netcentric warfare. It is no longer the real dogfight but the node... It is better to train that on computers then go up in air with that many planes. Pakistan has not been part of that development and kept the local need of a2a proficiency high. Certainly with the lack of BVR equipped fighter jets.

I have to agree with the fact that real flying is better then a sim but do not underestimate the training effects for netcentric warfare. If you look at the development of cockpits you do see the bang bang after F16 cockpit towards JSF cockpit. Extremely based on netcentric warfare.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## raazh

Munir said:


> I think the training in the west is extremely focussed on tactics in netcentric warfare. It is no longer the real dogfight but the node... It is better to train that on computers then go up in air with that many planes. Pakistan has not been part of that development and kept the local need of a2a proficiency high. Certainly with the lack of BVR equipped fighter jets.



The aim of USAF is to have air superiority in all imaginable scenarios in any region of the world and that too on short notice. They also have a variety of numerous assets available to them via which they can perform all imaginable missions. With this much of workload it is not only necessary to hone your piloting skills but also train to utilize all that available strategic assets to their effective and maximum use. For that simulators is the most effective way to go.

PAF on the other hand has only one major enemy which is right next to us. So our doctrine and work is cut out for us and focused on India only. However, now PAF also possess AWACS and is taking the C4I capability seriously to respond effectively against IAF misadventures. It is good to know that PAF has invested in the Electronic Warfare Tactical Training Range and is taking this aspect of the warfare seriously.


----------



## Munir

@raazh Sure, I think it is obvious that USA wants that. But they have a rigid system. The moment you do something that they did not train... And with overwhelming force anyone can win.I do not think we can say that the USA achieved top scores in equal opponent scenario... I mean, let them fight N v N... You can kiss their tactics goodbye.


----------



## VCheng

raazh said:


> *The aim of USAF is to have air superiority in all imaginable scenarios in any region of the world and that too on short notice.* They also have a variety of numerous assets available to them via which they can perform all imaginable missions. With this much of workload it is not only necessary to hone your piloting skills but also train to utilize all that available strategic assets to their effective and maximum use. For that simulators is the most effective way to go.
> 
> PAF on the other hand has only one major enemy which is right next to us. So our doctrine and work is cut out for us and focused on India only. However, now PAF also possess AWACS and is taking the C4I capability seriously to respond effectively against IAF misadventures. It is good to know that PAF has invested in the Electronic Warfare Tactical Training Range and is taking this aspect of the warfare seriously.



The aim of USAF is to achieve air *dominance*, not mere superiority.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## raazh

Munir said:


> @raazh Sure, I think it is obvious that USA wants that. But they have a rigid system. The moment you do something that they did not train... And with overwhelming force anyone can win. I do not think we can say that the USA achieved top scores in equal opponent scenario... I mean, let them fight N v N... You can kiss their tactics goodbye.



I am sure it could be said for all the Airforces; if your not prepared then you are at the mercy of your opponent. that is why training aspect is the most important strength.

Fortunately for the USAF, they have not encountered anything equal since the great WW2. Even in the Vietnam war, I would say that the gap was very big; although the Vietnames did put up strong resistance. After that the gap got wider and wider ..


----------



## Kompromat

Lungi dance on BR forum over this induction is amusingly epic

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Windjammer

Aeronaut said:


> Lungi dance on BR forum over this induction is amusingly epic


Should have read readers comments in Indian newspapers, talk about getting their chudi in a twist.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Munir

I have read BR a few times but it is so pathetic. I had a once a friend who did some exploring on their servers and found out who these people really are. I posted the pictures and everyone was shut up there. The BR guys are not only f ugly but brain dead. They have no background bot knowledge of technology... These morons see LCA as one generation ahead of block52. These gus still think they are ahead of China. These guys really think they are a superpowah... And that Makhi is the best plane ever build. C'mon, I know they are here on this forum on (just like any other forum) using western names. But there is a reason I ignore their ID... Jus a waste of time. I rather travel to an exhibition and talk to their manufactures. I take a close look at the product. I analyze the data. I do not need to communicate to fanboys. Call me arrogant... It is who I am after 15 years internet.

Reactions: Positive Rating Positive Rating:
2 | Like Like:
16


----------



## Windjammer

@Munir, To me BR is nothing more than a Zoo with just one certain breed of animals.

Anyways the good news is Alan Warnes is currently in Pakistan again, hence expect some goodies in the coming weeks covering both the exercise and the additional F-16 induction plus all other related items.

Reactions: Like Like:
9


----------



## Munir

I am fan of Alan but the issue is that times have changed. Let say back in the 80's I went to the library to read aviation magazines. Every word, every picture was interesting. in the early 90's there were a few professional active on the net. I have tons of magazines from the 90's till 2005. After that the level of reporting went ultra low. The pictures are nice but you can find a lot more and a lot better in the net. Not only ones a month but every second. So I had a talk with Alan about developments in his field and he mentioned his internet info magazine. Still I miss one development. With no one going into technical details one get enormous bored reading the info. And with posters these days we get the info almost real time.

I agree no one likes their secrets printed but there is so much to write about tactics, technical aspects etc They tried once to print something about WVR and promised more... It never happened. I would now write about EASE, how ECM works etc etc

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Windjammer

I hear you but then certain information only comes through journalists like Alan Warnes, the PAF F-16s taking out the Saudi F-15s and Typhoons for example which the DMA may not have disclosed to anyone else, more over it was one certain source who told me how the RAF Typhoons whacked the Indian MKIs, in fact that gentleman even had the privilege to see the EFT. HUD video.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Manticore

Stick to topic please

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Munir

Manticore said:


> Stick to topic please



Accepted. 

Anyway. There is a change of strategic warfare inside Pakistan. The USA stopped drones. We will remove insurgents inside Pakistan. In that respect those tested F16's from Jordan are contributing already. And very very effective. Pakistan zindabad.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Kompromat

@Munir

Its being said that if we put the 19th sq F-16s through MLU-MIII to bring them upto date with the rest of the fleet it still would be within FMS allocation. Is this true?


----------



## Munir

Aeronaut said:


> @Munir
> 
> Its being said that if we put the 19th sq F-16s through MLU-MIII to bring them upto date with the rest of the fleet it still would be within FMS allocation. Is this true?



Aeronaut saheb, we bought the MLU packages already some time ago. The project can be done in Pakistan. We have received training from our brothers in Turkey. So the financing is pretty clear

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Kompromat

Munir said:


> Aeronaut saheb, we bought the MLU packages already some time ago. The project can be done in Pakistan. We have received training from our brothers in Turkey. So the financing is pretty clear



Are you telling me that we can carry out MLU-MIII at PAC with imported kits ?

AFAIK, these jets carry AN/APG66 and are suitable for air defense roles with limited precision strike capabilities. They also lack JHMCS.


----------



## Hyperion

Not possible, Lala! 



Aeronaut said:


> Are you telling me that we can carry out MLU-MIII at PAC with imported kits ?
> 
> AFAIK, these jets carry AN/APG66 and are suitable for air defense roles with limited precision strike capabilities. They also lack JHMCS.


----------



## Munir

Windjammer said:


> I hear you but then certain information only comes through journalists like Alan Warnes, the PAF F-16s taking out the Saudi F-15s and Typhoons for example which the DMA may not have disclosed to anyone else, more over it was one certain source who told me how the RAF Typhoons whacked the Indian MKIs, in fact that gentleman even had the privilege to see the EFT. HUD video.



@Windjammer The information that they beaten consistently does not say anything technical. Which setup or what was the reason behind it? What kind of tactics etc. So indeed it says something but at the same time nothing.

I am kind of engineer that wants to understand why and not just an appetizer. Alan agreed with my opinion so I am still waiting for changes. Well, he is in Pakistan right now. 47 C... He is that often there... He must be used to the weather.



Aeronaut said:


> Are you telling me that we can carry out MLU-MIII at PAC with imported kits ?
> 
> AFAIK, these jets carry AN/APG66 and are suitable for air defense roles with limited precision strike capabilities. They also lack JHMCS.



I do not use those words but my friend, you know the number of packets we bought... 60... We still have some spares... Btw we just ordered some more sniper pods.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Kompromat

@Munir

Its not a new order AFAIK. Its a contract for maintainence of Sniper pods.


----------



## nomi007

good bye dear f-7

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Munir

Would love to see in a museum here in the west... J6 is nice but J7 is nicer....


----------



## Donatello

Aeronaut said:


> @Munir
> 
> Its not a new order AFAIK. Its a contract for maintainence of Sniper pods.



Hi,

I think someone posted the contract here, it said the company was awarded contract to supply new pods and also a package for their maintenance. I suppose the older pods came with their own support package?

@Munir sahib can perhaps clarify.



Aeronaut said:


> Are you telling me that we can carry out MLU-MIII at PAC with imported kits ?
> 
> AFAIK, these jets carry AN/APG66 and are suitable for air defense roles with limited precision strike capabilities. They also lack JHMCS.




Even if we have to obtain new MLU kits, it shouldn't be a problem, since PAF already operates 3 squadrons of jets that are more advanced (As USA agreed to it) and also the AIM120 which was allowed. So no point in stopping MLU upgrades for these jets. Least case, it's their own companies getting the cash, so they would lobby quietly.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Munir

I thought it was a new order where commercial parties were sought to produce Sniper pods for a number of foreign customers for the USA.


----------



## AZADPAKISTAN2009

When are we getting more surplus equipment ??? we have not gotten anything from USA in while , OBAMA where are you my brother

I would have imagined Obama would have annouced a cooperation package of 30 F16 and 30 Super Cobras

Tuxedo ki ksaam , we need those F16 more then ever


----------



## Windjammer

Munir said:


> @Windjammer The information that they beaten consistently does not say anything technical. Which setup or what was the reason behind it? What kind of tactics etc. So indeed it says something but at the same time nothing.


@Munir

This is as much as i could dig out. 

*''They were all WVR; missile-lock and gun-locks (the latter being most difficult). The max engagement that was done was 8 vs 8 . Almost every pilot scored a kill during second exercise with SA.''*

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Munir

Windjammer said:


> @Munir
> 
> This is as much as i could dig out.
> 
> *''They were all WVR; missile-lock and gun-locks (the latter being most difficult). The max engagement that was done was 8 vs 8 . Almost every pilot scored a kill during second exercise with SA.''*



Between you and me... EF2000 not able to use speed against F16? The EF2000 idea is to stay high on kinetic and not go into WVR. And then be able to handle higher G (fluid suit) tells me that it diverted from the best tactics it could use. In BVR it has more BVR. Better radar. Better ECM (even towed decoy).

And in WVR... HMS and Erieye is deadly against non AIM9X...

Still thanks. Interesting. Your pictures and information does make you rethink. 

On the others hand. I would bet on it. I trust PAF pilots and know what they achieved in the past. There not 9-5 sunny day pilots. They are hardcore pilots that will go beyond anything. I doubt that anyone will do so much to safe their plane and fight as the better one then anyone else.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Windjammer

Munir said:


> Between you and me... EF2000 not able to use speed against F16? The EF2000 idea is to stay high on kinetic and not go into WVR. And then be able to handle higher G (fluid suit) tells me that it diverted from the best tactics it could use. In BVR it has more BVR. Better radar. Better ECM (even towed decoy).
> 
> And in WVR... HMS and Erieye is deadly against non AIM9X...
> 
> Still thanks. Interesting. Your pictures and information does make you rethink.
> 
> On the others hand. I would bet on it. I trust PAF pilots and know what they achieved in the past. There not 9-5 sunny day pilots. They are hardcore pilots that will go beyond anything. I doubt that anyone will do so much to safe their plane and fight as the better one then anyone else.


I thought you would raise the question, since PAF participated with only six, how did they then managed 8 V 8.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Windjammer

That's the current OC 9 Sqn WC Omer Shah, the one who performed the air display at Sargodha during the re-equipment ceremony of 19 Sqn. Here he's with Alan Warnes for an earlier aerial shoot.

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## Munir

Windjammer said:


> That's the current OC 9 Sqn WC Omer Shah, the one who performed the air display at Sargodha during the re-equipment ceremony of 19 Sqn. Here he's with Alan Warnes for an earlier aerial shoot.



Wasn't that the JF17 fotoshoot?
Well, I know a bunch of guys who are lucky to get rides in the backseat... But one has to be very very very very very very very lucky and have some good good good good networking capabilities...


----------



## Windjammer

Munir said:


> Wasn't that the JF17 fotoshoot?
> Well, I know a bunch of guys who are lucky to get rides in the backseat... But one has to be very very very very very very very lucky and have some good good good good networking capabilities...


Yes it was for JF-17 live bombing shoot during Highmark, earlier i got mixed up with W/C Sulhery, who also took Alan Warnes for a fotoshoot sortie but that was for Alan's book on the PAF.
As for getting a ride in the back seat, we all saw what happened to Talat Hussain, in fact what happened to him off-camera was even worse.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Munir

Well, i would not mind getting a taxi ride in our f16's...


----------



## Donatello

Windjammer said:


> Yes it was for JF-17 live bombing shoot during Highmark, earlier i got mixed up with W/C Sulhery, who also took Alan Warnes for a fotoshoot sortie but that was for Alan's book on the PAF.
> *As for getting a ride in the back seat, we all saw what happened to Talat Hussain, in fact what happened to him off-camera was even worse*.




Lol why what happened?


----------



## Windjammer

Donatello said:


> Lol why what happened?



Off-camera, he was throwing up all over the place.

Talat Hussain on F16 at sargodha base | Tune.pk


----------



## Windjammer

Munir said:


> Well, i would not mind getting a taxi ride in our f16's...



Make your dreams come true. 

Fly a MiG Fighter Jet Over Russia. MiG flights, MiG-29 Fly a Fighter Jet

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Munir

Windjammer said:


> Make your dreams come true.
> 
> Fly a MiG Fighter Jet Over Russia. MiG flights, MiG-29 Fly a Fighter Jet



I do not mind flying as long as it is PAF...

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## nomi007




----------



## Pinnacle

nomi007 said:


>


Why PAF has not changed the color scheme of these F-16s yet?


----------



## nomi007

danish falcon said:


> Why PAF has not changed the color scheme of these F-16s yet?


we still did change color scheme of our old f-16s also


----------



## SQ8

danish falcon said:


> Why PAF has not changed the color scheme of these F-16s yet?


Because it is effective enough.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Windjammer

nomi007 said:


>


This is one of the Ex- Jordanian aircraft pictured on it's arrival hence still supporting old registration number and looking a bit shaded, after some fresh up and a visit to the paint shop, it will look the business.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## 小懒丶

Good

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Muslimdaughter

good work


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

^ Nishan Alert ... Nishan Alert.


----------



## HRK

The Total Acquisition cost of Jordan for 16 units of Peace Falcon-I F-16 block-15 OCU (upgraded to ADF) was $ *220 million* (13.750 Avg.) including additional items as mention under, but on average the actual acquisition cost for every single bird was around *$10.815 million* during 1997 & 1998 see the table attached below (column: Unit Acquisition Value) or download the Excess Defense Articles report from the website of Defence Security Cooperation Agency USA








> On July 29th, 1996, *a $220 million *agreement was signed between the United States and Jordan authorizing the lease of 16 F-16 fighter jets (12 F-16A and 4 F-16B aircraft) to Jordan.
> 
> The agreement consisted of *two lease contracts *and a Letter of Offer and Acceptance (LoA). The first lease was a *no-cost lease for Jordan*, covering 13 aircraft (12 A models and 1 B model, *block 15 OCU's that were modified into ADF (Air Defense Fighters) versions*. Under the Arms Export Control Act, the DOD was able to provide these aircraft at a no-cost lease because they had flown off over 75 percent of their life (i.e. more than 3,000 hour). Three of the B-model aircraft still had more than 25 percent of their life left and they fall under the second $4.5 million lease. Both leases cover a 5 year period. The LOA is for $215 million, covering all costs associated with upgrading those aircraft, doing the structural modifications to them, the engine upgrades, providing the support equipment, the logistics, the training.
> 
> F-16 Air Forces - Jordan






> The Foreign Military Sales case, JO-D-SME, worth over *$215 million*, is for the purchase of support equipment, spares, and other related equipment to support sixteen leased F-l6s. The case supports two lease agreements. The ﬁrst agreement is a ﬁve-year no-cost lease for twelve F-16A aircraft, one F-16B aircraft, four F100-PW-200 engines, sixty-two pieces of support equipment, 1420 reparable items, and eight maintenance-training devices. These items were all deemed to have exceeded *75 *percent of their service life and under provisions in the Arms Export Control Act [§6l(a), AECA], could be "leased" at no cost, i.e., without requiring reimbursement for depreciation during the leased period. The second agreement provides a three-year lease for the remaining three F-16B aircraft. Reimbursement for depreciation costs is required for these aircraft since they each have more than 25 percent of their service life remaining. This lease is valued at *$1.6 million*.
> 
> The case also includes:
> 
> Structural Modification of the Aircraft
> 
> Modifications to the F100-PW-220E Engines
> 
> Aircraft Ground Support Equipment and Aircraft Spares
> 
> Alternate Mission Equipment
> 
> Engine Support Equipment and Engine Spares
> 
> Support Vehicles
> 
> Training Munitions
> 
> Precision Measuring Equipment Laboratory (PMEL) Equipment
> 
> Technical Orders and other Technical Data
> 
> ln-Country Logistical, Training, and Engineering Support
> 
> Pilot and Maintenance Training
> 
> Post-Program Engineering Support
> 
> Facility Design Services.
> http://www.disam.dsca.mil/pubs/21_1/Phillips.pdf



After 16 years of services in Jordan these birds should cost less, I would appreciate if someone can make a calculated guess about the acquisition cost of these F-16s for PAF using the above figures, my personal guess is around *$ 5-8 million* for every bird on average, almost one-third of the cost of JF-17 block -1.


----------



## DrWatson775

Windjammer said:


> @Munir, To me BR is nothing ................additional F-16 induction plus all other related items.



From news reports of Jordanian F16s, it seemed more may be coming after the 13 are inducted ( I may be wrong). Any news regarding that or any chance of new F16s from the US? Thanks.


----------



## thrilainmanila

i hope more do come there are so many surplus F-16s around and the USA owes Pakistan allot. they should give a batch to the PAF which they didn't get back in the 90s because of the pressler amendment.


----------



## Skywalker

Munir said:


> I do not mind flying as long as it is PAF...


Munir bhai are you hinting for something.


----------



## Hurter

Pretty useless


----------



## elitepilot09

Junaid B said:


> Pretty useless



Just like this amazing informative post.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Hurter

elitepilot09 said:


> Just like this amazing informative post.



Would it really benefit to PAF? where UAE acquiring new F16s Block E/F and PAF is still buying used Block A/B


----------



## SQ8

Junaid B said:


> Would it really benefit to PAF? where UAE acquiring new F16s Block E/F and PAF is still buying used Block A/B



Would you send some money for it? Maybe in Saudi Arabia it grows on trees

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Hurter

In Saudi Arabia money grows on trees only for Saudis not for people like us.


----------



## TOPGUN

I have heard a rumor from a inside source in PAF that if all goes well with funds we might even see further 18 blk 52's vipers in PAF in the near future lets see how it plays out so help us ALLAH.


----------



## Neptune

Just FYI

A current Presidential Report regarding Defense Reforms indicated "to expand the naval forces and air force and phase out aging platforms.

After TF-X and F-35, we will have to retire 44 of 244 F-16s. They'll keep the Block50s and CCIPs. They will retire the 44 F-16s. They are Block 40 LANTIRN/SNIPER variants. .any possibility for PAF or UAEAF?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## C130

why is Pakistan sucking up the F-16s?
isn't the J-17 replacing it?


----------



## HRK

C130 said:


> why is Pakistan sucking up the F-16s?
> isn't the J-17 replacing it?



'if' used F-16 is available at one third or half of the price new JF-17 then why we should not avail the opportunity .....???

BTW JF-17 is replacing non ROSE Mirages & F-7s


----------



## The SC

Neptune said:


> Just FYI
> 
> A current Presidential Report regarding Defense Reforms indicated "to expand the naval forces and air force and phase out aging platforms.
> 
> After TF-X and F-35, we will have to retire 44 of 244 F-16s. They'll keep the Block50s and CCIPs. They will retire the 44 F-16s. They are Block 40 LANTIRN/SNIPER variants. .any possibility for PAF or UAEAF?


At that time PAF will be at its JF-17 block 4, and those F-16s can also be welcomed if the price if affordable like it should be, and might be kept for that role or MLUed by Turkey. They will be a good addition anyhow.
It is too bad that it will take that much time, but still...


----------



## AZADPAKISTAN2009

This thread has really got more coverage then it deserves just mere 13 F16 of block 1 level , not worth discussing

I mean really 84 pages for , mere block 1 planes and only 13


----------



## MastanKhan

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> This thread has really got more coverage then it deserves just mere 13 F16 of block 1 level , not worth discussing
> 
> I mean really 84 pages for , mere block 1 planes and only 13



Sir,

I have been wondering---I have been wondering why would a massive masculine bull with massive family jewels hanging proudly in front of the hind legs---be termed as a COW---only if the bull had the right to respond----.

Well it is not the 13 F16's that make the difference----it is the surprise factor of the numbers that makes the difference---a sqdrn strength of F16's is equivalent to a strike division of the army---and when you have a fully operational and equipped strike division of the army suddenly appear on the flanks out of thin air---it gives a massive jolt to the enemy---.

That is what it is all about----.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Luftwaffe

C130 said:


> why is Pakistan sucking up the F-16s?
> isn't the J-17 replacing it?



JF-17 is replacement to older Mirages and F-7P and later on F-7PGs. Pakistan will continue to procure F-16s. The major strategic blunder of Mr. musharraf was cutting F-16 orders from 77.



Neptune said:


> After TF-X and F-35, we will have to retire 44 of 244 F-16s. They'll keep the Block50s and CCIPs. They will retire the 44 F-16s. They are Block 40 LANTIRN/SNIPER variants. .any possibility for PAF or UAEAF?



There is always possibilities and special Pak-Turkey AF relations are at the height such a good opportunity should never be missed. As for UAEF they are going to further induct F-16 Block 61 later on their requirements are way above. So the possible candidate could only be PAF provided US approves....I've always said PAF have eyes on Turkish AF F-16s.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## MastanKhan

halfilhal said:


> Massive jolt my donkey. Does not it occur to you that after three wars, India would be taking into account all the war machines Pakistan gets as handouts in wartime. Why is India stockpiling arms and ammunition over and beyond? Pakistan is the cancer countries all around the world are interested in festering to keep this part of the world embroiled. Only if Indira had risked it all, this would have been sorted out in 1971. But that is too much to ask for since what she did was already out of India's character.



Ok,

For stupid people to understand---here it is----a handout or paid by hard earned cash----a bullet kills the same.

How deep is your level of stupidity sir------that you cannot even comprehend that simple concept----. Weapons of death and destruction don't distinguish between the source of funding----. They just work for whomsoever gets them----the weapons don't have an objective conscience.

As for Indira's mistakes----how abut ours---if our pathan force had not stopped to loot the town before sri nagar --- we would have had the control of the capital---or if Ayub Khan had not switched the command to Gen Yahya in the 65 war at chhamb Jauryian sector---things might have looked different----or if Pres Yahya Khan had the ballz to strike india when main indian army was attacking east Pakistan.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Aepsilons

cb4 said:


>




Beautiful Birds ! I'm sure they'll be an asset to the Pakistani Air Force.


----------



## Donatello

MastanKhan said:


> Ok,
> 
> For stupid people to understand---here it is----a handout or paid by hard earned cash----a bullet kills the same.
> 
> How deep is your level of stupidity sir------that you cannot even comprehend that simple concept----. Weapons of death and destruction don't distinguish between the source of funding----. They just work for whomsoever gets them----the weapons have an objective conscience.
> 
> As for Indira's mistakes----how abut ours---if our pathan force had not stopped to loot the town before sri nagar --- we would have had the control of the capital---or if Ayub Khan had not switched the command to Gen Yahya in the 65 war at chhamb Jauryian sector---things might have looked different----or if Pres Yahya Khan had the ballz to strike india when main indian army was attacking east Pakistan.



Sir there is not point in explaining to the stupid or ignorant. Indians despite being much larger in size, still have to compare themselves with Pakistan to feel better. When it comes to competing with their own size, they have zilch to say. How pathetic can a nation like that be?

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------

