# PIA plane crash near Model Colony Karachi with 93+ on board



## pak-marine

PIA plane crash in Model colony Karachi

*PIA plane crashes near Karachi’s Model Colony area*
By Fahad Zulfikar on May 22, 2020

So far, there is no information on number of injured and casualties.




The flight was enroute from Lahore to Karachi.












(Karachi) A Pakistan International Airlines (PIA) flight crashed near Karachi's Model Colony area, media reported on Friday. The flight was enroute from Lahore to Karachi.





As per details, the plane had the capacity to carry more than 200 passengers. However, there is no information on number of casualties and injured in the incident.

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## PakSword

Inna lillah e wa Inna ilaihe raji'un.

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## Aadi_1591

ya ALLAH reham


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## pak-marine



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## pak-marine

There were 91 passengers on board


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## Imran Khan

A-320 ap-BLD is crashed damn


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## Lord Of Gondor

Really tragic news. RIP to all the occupants and may god give strength to the families to tide over this huge loss.

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## Maarkhoor

*’کراچی میں لاہور سے آنے والا مسافر طیارہ گر کر تباہ‘*
*پاکستانی ذرائع ابلاغ کے مطابق ملک کے سب سے بڑے شہر کراچی میں ہوائی اڈے کے قریب ایک مسافر طیارہ گر کر تباہ ہو گیا ہے۔

اطلاعات کے مطابق یہ طیارہ ملک کی قومی ایئر لائن پی آئی اے کا تھا اور لاہور سے کراچی آ رہا تھا کہ لینڈنگ سے قبل حادثے کا شکار ہو گیا۔

ٹی وی پر دکھائی دینے والی فوٹیج میں جائے حادثہ سے دھوئیں کے کالے بادل اٹھتے دیکھے جا سکتے ہیں۔

پاکستانی ذرائع ابلاغ کے مطابق طیارہ ماڈل کالونی کے قریب ایسے علاقے میں گرا ہے جہاں انسانی آبادی موجود ہے۔

تاحال حکام کی جانب سے حادثے کی وجوہات اور اس سے ہونے والی جانی اور مالی نقصانات کے بارے میں کوئی تفصیل فراہم نہیں کی گئی ہے تاہم آبادی پر گرنے کی وجہ اس حادثے میں ہلاکتوں کا خدشہ ہے۔

پاکستان میں کوورنا کی وبا پھیلنے کے بعد اندرونِ ملک پروازوں کا سلسلہ دو ماہ تک معطل رہنے کے بعد حال ہی میں شروع ہوا ہے۔

مزید تفصیلات آ رہی ہیں۔*
*https://www.bbc.com/urdu/pakistan-52768214*​

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## litman

https://www.dawn.com/news/1558944/pia-aircraft-crashes-in-residential-area-near-karachi-airport
Allah raham karay.


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## WebMaster

Sad, looks like it crashed in a very dense populated area.  Looks like there will be many casualties.

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## IceCold

_*Inna lillahi wa inna ilayhi raji'un*_ . Allah Pak apna Reham farmai or sub ko hifzo Imaan main rakha. Ameen!


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## pak-marine

Plane possibly crashed on a residential area


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## PakSword

pak-marine said:


> There were 91 passengers on board


99 + 8


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## BHarwana

There is hope of survivors people are being taken to different hospitals. May Allah pak save the lives.



PakSword said:


> 99 + 8


95 passenger on board bro

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## PakSword

WebMaster said:


> Sad, looks like it crashed in a very dense populated area.  Looks like there will be many casualties.


I have heard that only one house has been partly damaged.


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## litman

seems like it destroyed some buildings at the crash site as well.
2020 is becoming to be a worst year for aviation in pakistan. 4 PAF jets, 1 army aviation air craft and today a PIA jet have crashed so far in 6 months.


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## BHarwana

Plane crashed 1 minute before landing.

It crashed on model colony damaged 4 to 5 houses but only one house has sustained substantial damage. There is fire and rescue services are trying to control it.


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## pak-marine

looks like there will be many casualties


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## R Wing

Seem to be no survivors --- devastation on the ground too as it was a packed residential area right next to the airport (no urban planning.) Homes, cars, etc., crushed and rescuers trying to save people from under the rubble.

Allah reham karay. Devastating news.


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## BHarwana

Army and rangers have reached the area and have started rescue work.


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## R Wing

BHarwana said:


> Plane crashed 1 minute before landing.
> 
> It crashed on model colony damaged 4 to 5 houses but only one house has sustained substantial damage. There is fire and rescue services are trying to control it.



Apparently the landing gear didn't open and the tower asked the plane to make another attempt (i.e. circle around) --- but somehow that resulted in a crash (perhaps couldn't get enough lift after the first attempt?)


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## airomerix

Crashed during landing approach to Karachi on runway 25L

The aircraft was experiencing problem with landing gear extension and was performing low go-around.

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## pak-marine

PakSword said:


> 99 + 8



terrible , RIP those who lost their lives and quick recovery to the injured

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## Raj-Hindustani

Very Sad News..... 

RIP..

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## arjunk

https://www.geo.tv/latest/289217-pia-aircraft-crashes-near-karachi-airport


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## Side-Winder

Crashed just before the runway... Very tragic

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## Imran Khan

model colony is next to airport and very dense populated area


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## pak-marine




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## BHarwana

R Wing said:


> Apparently the landing gear didn't open and the tower asked the plane to make another attempt (i.e. circle around) --- but somehow that resulted in a crash (perhaps couldn't get enough lift after the first attempt?)


Yes the issue was landing gear apparently. There were 7 crew members also on board.


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## CrazyZ

Inna lillah e wa Inna ilaihe raji'un.


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## PakSword

WebMaster said:


> Sad, looks like it crashed in a very dense populated area.  Looks like there will be many casualties.


I think you are right, many houses have been damaged. 

May Allah have mercy on everyone.


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## Aadi_1591

litman said:


> seems like it destroyed some buildings at the crash site as well.
> 2020 is becoming to be a worst year for aviation in pakistan. 4 PAF jets, 1 army aviation air craft and today a PIA jet have crashed so far in 6 months.


2020 is a real bitch

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## pak-marine




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## Zee-shaun

RIP


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## Shapur

Hopefully casualties are low. Inna lillahi wa inna elaihi rejeoon

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## American Pakistani

Ya Allah Reham. 

Inna Lillah e WA Inna Eleh E Rajeoon. 



BHarwana said:


> Army and rangers have reached the area and have started rescue work.


Sorry for off topic. But everything has to be done by army or paramilitary then what's the use of useless police force?


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## litman

just a moment beofre reaching its destination. so sad.


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## Imran Khan

pak-marine said:


>


sad seems like all is lost they need chopper for roof tops of homes rescue in case survivals


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## ali_raza

whu cant there be an SOP 
should have landed on water.
we need piLots like sully.
hudson river landing is a case in point.
but we cant expect political appointees to think outside the box.
our go soft go slow approach will kill us everywhere

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## M. Sarmad

Inna lillahi wa inna ilayhi raji'un


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## Naofumi

Inna lillah e wa Inna ilaihe raji'un.


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## Yaseen1

i think we should also look at who was pilot as matric pass were previously found to be appointed as pilot,it was very poor performance by pilot,atleast he should have attempted to save residential houses


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## arjunk

ali_raza said:


> whu cant there be an SOP
> should have landed on water.
> we need piLots like sully.
> hudson river landing is a case in point.
> but we cant expect political appointees to think outside the box.
> our go soft go slow approach will kill us everywhere



Well you see Karachi doesn't exactly have much water especially in the area where the plane crashed... Whole city is mostly a copy paste of concrete and trash thanks to certain people who's name i need not mention.

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## PanzerKiel

It is reported that the pilot of the aircraft Capt Sajjad Gull was asked to make a low pass in front of ATC to check his gears. In the process of going around the aircraft has crashed.

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## pak-marine

Imran Khan said:


> sad seems like all is lost they need chopper for roof tops of homes rescue in case survivals


its super dense population also knowing karachi most likely there are no parks or play grounds so impossible to land a chopper


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## arjunk

The car nearby was obliterated, as were the buildings, I don't know if there will be many survivors... And people gathering up at the site in the middle of the pandemic with no mask as well. I think we should prepare for lots of casualties. إِنَّا لِلَّٰهِ وَإِنَّا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعُونَ

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## Death Professor

inna lillahe wa inna ilaihe raji'un.


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## pak-marine

PanzerKiel said:


> It is reported that the pilot of the aircraft Capt Sajjad Gull was asked to make a low pass in front of ATC to check his gears. In the process of going around the aircraft has crashed.


I hope this is not true else very irresponsible


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## Rusty

RIP 
Do we know what kind of aircraft it was?

That movie 2012 should have been called 2020.

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## dexter

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2750012861889159


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## PanzerKiel

Rusty said:


> RIP
> Do we know what kind of aircraft it was?
> 
> That movie 2012 should have been called 2020.



A320

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## arjunk

A320, landing gear issue


Rusty said:


> RIP
> Do we know what kind of aircraft it was?
> 
> That movie 2012 should have been called 2020.

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## Sohail Qamar Photography

إِنَّا لِلَّٰهِ وَإِنَّا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعُونَ

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## Yaseen1

many experts were raising this issue for years that pia is run by incapable staff who had turned this airline to crap and people not prefer to travel in it due to bad services so it is not unexpected if this reason of crash is true


pak-marine said:


> I hope this is not true else very irresponsible

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## Max

Very Sad, May Allah have mercy on us.

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## aryadravida

Sorry for everyone that has passed away...extremely sad that people who were in their houses also had to suffer the damages...they might have been sleeping tightly in their homes in the afternoon..no one would expect that something like this can happen to them when they are in their houses...I sincerely hope there arent lives lost in the houses where the plane fell on..
If those houses are legally built, the govt should pay the compensation immediately so that they can buy the house elsewhere.

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## WebMaster

aryadravida said:


> Sorry for everyone that has passed away...extremely sad that people who were in their houses also had to suffer the damages...they might have been sleeping tightly in their homes in the afternoon..no one would expect that something like this can happen to them when they are in their houses...I sincerely hope there arent lives lost in the houses where the plane fell on..
> If those houses are legally built, the govt should pay the compensation immediately so that they can buy the house elsewhere.


My fear is entire families along with the houses will be gone. You are right that most people were sleeping at this time

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## dexter

إِنَّا لِلَّهِ وَإِنَّا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعُونَ‎

Crash site is near my home, i can clearly see the smoke of crashed plane.
Temperature is quite high in Karachi today, extinguishing the fire of wreckage wont be easy.
May ALLAH have mercy on all passengers and residents near crash site.

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## BHarwana

American Pakistani said:


> Ya Allah Reham.
> 
> Inna Lillah e WA Inna Eleh E Rajeoon.
> 
> 
> Sorry for off topic. But everything has to be done by army or paramilitary then what's the use of useless police force?


Every one is there my friend both army and police and other services. Army has a QRF unit with helicopters there to perform things better.


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## PaklovesTurkiye

This is such a sad and tragic news

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## Yaseen1

people might be gone for Friday prayers which will reduce causalities if true


WebMaster said:


> My fear is entire families along with the houses will be gone. You are right that most people were sleeping at this time


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## BL33D

RIP. Condolences to the people.


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## razgriz19

Belly landing can be performed. Water is the worst thing to land on 
But as usual PIA will blame it on the pilot error. Worst airline to fly on


ali_raza said:


> whu cant there be an SOP
> should have landed on water.
> we need piLots like sully.
> hudson river landing is a case in point.
> but we cant expect political appointees to think outside the box.
> our go soft go slow approach will kill us everywhere


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## Chhatrapati

Tragic incident... RIP to the dead...

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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

Sad to see banya from India starting to make stupid and cold comments. May God rid us if these filthy people.

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## Samlee

RIP


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## litman

pak-marine said:


> I hope this is not true else very irresponsible


dont jump to conclusion without full information. no pilot is foolish enough to deliberately bring the faulty jet on a densely populated area. some eye witnesses are saying that they didnt hear the noise of engines before it fell

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## kris

My deep condolences to fallen souls, RIP

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## airomerix

List of passengers onboard.

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## S.Y.A

ali_raza said:


> whu cant there be an SOP
> should have landed on water.
> we need piLots like sully.
> hudson river landing is a case in point.
> but we cant expect political appointees to think outside the box.
> our go soft go slow approach will kill us everywhere


Happened a minute before landing, no water anywhere nearby, idiot planners of the city provided NOCs to builders in exchange for bribes and allowed construction so close to the runway. So no open space available for crash landing. I really doubt that any pilot, no matter how capable, could have done anything.
Allah puchhay in sab haramkhoron say. Including PIA admin, engg, and karachi's building control authorities.

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## Ashraf. M

Samlee said:


> RIP


So Sad... RIP to all deceased.. and may almighty God give strength to the bereaved families for the loss.

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## litman

now the pilot's conversation is there on ary news. the pilot is clearly saying that we have lost engines.

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## Baghial

CAPTIAN, MAY DAY MAYDAY
WE HAVE LOST ENGINE...

ATC. AND CAPTIAN AUDIO........


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## S.Y.A

Yaseen1 said:


> people might be gone for Friday prayers which will reduce causalities if true


Already over.

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## litman

Baghial said:


> CAPTIAN, MAY DAY MAYDAY
> WE HAVE LOST ENGINE...
> 
> ATC. AND CAPTIAN AUDIO........


the voice tone of the captain shows that the captain was still very much calm and composed and was handling the siutaion professionally but as he lost the engines he couldnt do much.


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## manga

Oh damn. That is tragic. RIP TO ALL.
Since it happened in affternoon people in the houses must be sleeping in lockdown or watching tv. Never they would have thought of such a thing happening. Cant imagine the moment that thing could have came down heavily on houses. Tragic.

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## Foxtrot Delta

From Allah we come and to Him is our return. 

Lets wait and see what was the cause.. sad news

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## Dark-Destroyer

pak-marine said:


> There were 91 passengers on board


107 total on board


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## Foxtrot Delta

BHarwana said:


> There is hope of survivors people are being taken to different hospitals. May Allah pak save the lives.
> 
> 
> 95 passenger on board bro


Ameen


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## Blacklight



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## FuturePAF

R Wing said:


> Apparently the landing gear didn't open and the tower asked the plane to make another attempt (i.e. circle around) --- but somehow that resulted in a crash (perhaps couldn't get enough lift after the first attempt?)



Was this an old plane or a used plane bought from another airlines?


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## Genghis khan1

litman said:


> now the pilot's conversation is there on ary news. the pilot is clearly saying that we have lost engines.


Engine was working fine during the flight, how did both failed before landing?

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## Liquidmetal

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1263784220331294721

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Gusy just confirming that there are 8 housed and a school that has been destroyed in this Plane crash. where the aircraft crashed is approximately 0.2 DME.


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## Vanguard One

Smoke seen in the skies over buildings in an area of Pakistan where a Pakistan Airlines flight crashed shortly before landing.
A Pakistan Airlines flight with more than 100 people on board has crashed in the Pakistani city of Karachi, an airline spokesman has said.

Pakistan's Aviation Ministry said the flight was carrying 99 passengers and eight crew members.

Flight PK803 took off from Lahore and was due to land at 2.30pm local time (7.30pm AEST) in Karachi but went missing from the radar, Pakistan Airlines spokesman Abdullah Khan told CNN.

The flight typically takes an hour and a half to travel from the northeastern city of Lahore, the capital of Pakistan's most populous Punjab province to Karachi.

The Pakistani army said its quick reaction force and paramilitary troops have reached the site for relief and rescue efforts alongside civil administration.

There were no immediate reports on the number of casualties.
Witnesses said the Airbus A320 appeared to attempt to land two or three times before crashing in a residential area near Jinnah International Airport.

The residential area on the edge of the airport known as Model Colony is a poor area and heavily congested.
Local television reports showed smoke coming from the direction of the airport. Ambulances were on their way to the airport.
_
More to come..._

https://www.9news.com.au/world/paki...ews-asia/113e75ab-8486-48cb-adbd-36158ff9e421


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## Foxtrot Delta

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Gusy just confirming that there are 8 housed and a school that has been destroyed in this Plane crash. where the aircraft crashed is approximately 0.2 DME.


Good thing schools are closed

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## litman

Genghis khan1 said:


> Engine was working fine during the flight, how did both failed before landing?


so do you think that the pilot was lying ???i am not an aviation expert and i am sure you are also the same.


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## 艹艹艹

RIP

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## Yaseen1

is there any cctv video of crash,it will help in determining cause


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## Agha Sher

Depressing..

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## manga

Corona, cyclones, dams getting busted, planes falling down (military and civilian both) , earthquakes, locust attack. 2020 is having it all.

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## Foxtrot Delta

From Allah we come and to Him is our return.
Lets see what caused it. Sad news but we all have to go one day.

I hope there are survivours

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## Baghial

litman said:


> the voice tone of the captain shows that the captain was still very much calm and composed and was handling the siutaion professionally but as he lost the engines he couldnt do much.




seems like ATC, was giving emergency landing direction, to the pilot, while engine failure was being transmitted,

the plane must have been in final approach for landing. both runways were given cleared..

just 600/1000 meters away was runway.....tragic,

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## Jungibaaz

Inna Lillahi wa inna ilaihi raji'un. Very tragic news. Can't say much right now, but it sounds like total hydraulics failure?

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## LeGenD

Very sad development.

When I saw photos and footage of the sheer magnitude of smoke emanating from the crash site, I feared total loss. And latest reports indicate as much.

Inna Lillahi wa inna ilaihi raji'un.

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## Zayan

Really sad news before eid
But ya Pakistani koon hai jiss ki
Koi qeemant nahi lagti

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## Genghis khan1

litman said:


> so do you think that the pilot was lying ???i am not an aviation expert and i am sure you are also the same.


He wasn’t lying but considering both engines failed, sounds like pilot error than technical fault.

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## WebMaster

Can anyone check how old was this plane?

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## Oruc

انا للہ و انا الیہ راجعون


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## PanzerKiel

In the last conversation, ATC also asks the pilot whether he is about to attempt a belly landing.....means engines were out well before, pilot may have tried to glide his aircraft without power towards the runway, however, crashed just near it.

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## Arsalan

Inna Lillahi wa inna ilaihi raji'un!!

What a tragedy! Heavy loss feared on ground as well as the plane crashed in a populated area!

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## truthseeker2010

WebMaster said:


> Can anyone check how old was this plane?



15.8 years

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## StormBreaker

Ya Allah khair Ya Allah khair

Model colony is extremely congested and dense area, Heavy casualties expected

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## pak-marine

litman said:


> dont jump to conclusion without full information. no pilot is foolish enough to deliberately bring the faulty jet on a densely populated area. some eye witnesses are saying that they didnt hear the noise of engines before it fell



I didn’t read what i replied too before jumping in a conversation


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## Esgalduin

Foxtrot Delta said:


> From Allah we come and to Him is our return.
> Lets see what caused it. Sad news but we all have to go one day.
> 
> I hope there are survivours


i hope so too, not just among the passengers and crew but also among the residents of the vicinity. Emergency landings and congested settlements are never a good match.


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## airomerix

Aircraft Type: Airbus A320-214
Registration: AP-BLD
Construction Number: 2274
Year Built: 2004
Delivery to PIA: October 30, 2014

The aircraft was acquired by PIA from GE Capital Aviation Services (GECAS) on dry lease for six years. It arrived in Islamabad as delivery flight PK1786 from Shanghai via Dhaka on October 30, 2014.

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## litman

Genghis khan1 said:


> He wasn’t lying but considering both engines failed, sounds like pilot error than technical fault.


pakistanis adopt new profession very quickly. one day they become doctors and on the very next day they become aviators.

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## StormBreaker

PanzerKiel said:


> In the last conversation, ATC also asks the pilot whether he is about to attempt a belly landing.....means engines were out well before, pilot may have tried to glide his aircraft without power towards the runway, however, crashed just near it.


I blame straight out on the engineers of PIA, Although i did expect some crashes worldwide post lockdown as all planes worldwide were grounded and maintenance wasn’t upto level.

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## PanzerKiel

PanzerKiel said:


> In the last conversation, ATC also asks the pilot whether he is about to attempt a belly landing.....means engines were out well before, pilot may have tried to glide his aircraft without power towards the runway, however, crashed just near it.



...which could mean no landing gear issue.....issue was that the engines were out.....just a possibility....

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## Darth Vader

Ina lila


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## raptor22

RIP .. more devastating is it crashed in a residential area . hope no one injured or killed there ...

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## Genghis khan1

litman said:


> pakistanis adopt new profession very quickly. one day they become doctors and on the very next day they become aviators.


Pakistanis are talented people.

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## FuturePAF

WebMaster said:


> Can anyone check how old was this plane?



The maintenance record for this plane also needs to be examined.

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## StormBreaker

Blacklight said:


> View attachment 634747

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## LeGenD

WebMaster said:


> Can anyone check how old was this plane?


Link: 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1263785506271264768


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## litman

truthseeker2010 said:


> 15.8 years


so it was not a very old air craft.


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## Ali_Baba

That plane was at the middle age of its life and should have been at peak reliability, ie all the delivery bugs ironed out and no age related bugs coming into play. Additionally, the low pass should have been within the capabilities of the pilot as it was a simple manouvere.

I dont understand. Shocking for sure.

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## airomerix

Possible crash site.

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## BHarwana

WebMaster said:


> Can anyone check how old was this plane?


11 years old
The reason of the crash from cockpit tower communication seems to be engine faliure. But these are early reports so don't take them final. 

Total people on board including crew are 99

2 women 1 man and 1 child rescued alive and in hospital.


----------



## FuturePAF

truthseeker2010 said:


> 15.8 years



also, we can find out how many takeoffs and landings this plane had. If it is beyond a certain amount, most airlines will not fly it.

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## airomerix

BHarwana said:


> 11 years old
> The reason of the crash from cockpit tower communication seems to be engine faliure. But these are early reports so don't take them final.
> 
> Total people on board including crew are 99
> 
> 2 women 1 man and 1 child rescued alive and in hospital.



Aircraft Type: Airbus A320-214
Registration: AP-BLD
Construction Number: 2274
Year Built: 2004
Delivery to PIA: October 30, 2014


----------



## Yaseen1

investigation should be made as the risk of terrorism or suicide cannot be overlooked


Ali_Baba said:


> That plane was at the middle age of its life and should have been at peak reliability, ie all the delivery bugs ironed out and no age related bugs coming into play. Additionally, the low pass should have been within the capabilities of the pilot as it was a simple manouvere.
> 
> I dont understand. Shocking for sure.


----------



## Baghial

problems faced for rescue, due to narrow street, and heat from fir, at the crash site.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1263788123181498368


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## LKJ86

RIP

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## FuturePAF

BHarwana said:


> 11 years old
> The reason of the crash from cockpit tower communication seems to be engine faliure. But these are early reports so don't take them final.
> 
> Total people on board including crew are 99
> 
> 2 women 1 man and 1 child rescued alive and in hospital.



Thank Allah someone survived this. Inshallah, when they recover perhaps they will be better able to help explain what was happening from the passengers point of view.

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## Tameem

There are survivors definately... i hope a lot of.

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## Trailer23

WebMaster said:


> Can anyone check how old was this plane?


----------



## Mohsin A

inna lillahe wa inna ilaihe raji'un.

Very sad news. May Allah rest the departed souls in paradise and give patience to the effected families.
If lessons are not drawn from this tragic episode then god help us! Who let developers build so close to the airport? How old is this plane? Why wasn't the plane lined up with the runway if it was on approach? So many questions need to be answered.

Just putting it out there. Something similar happened with a British airways flight just before landing they lost engines. Fortunately the Pilot of that flight had the foresight to decrease flaps to gain a longer glide path and ended up crash landing on the airport land avoiding any casualties. 

I have a feeling the plane in this case must have stalled with Full flaps

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## FuturePAF

Trailer23 said:


> View attachment 634774


Originally a China Eastern airlines jet? Can any Chinese PDF member find out if this plane had any safety issues; especially engine issue when in service with that airlines?

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## StormBreaker

Trailer23 said:


> View attachment 634774


Doesn’t matter,
Pilot seems to be the culprit after thorough thinking


----------



## R Wing

litman said:


> so do you think that the pilot was lying ???i am not an aviation expert and i am sure you are also the same.



Of course the pilot was not lying. You might not be an aviation expert but I am assuming you're also not a child. 

Engine failure happens in airplanes even if both engines are fine during take off (obviously if they weren't fine, the plane wouldn't take off!) Even a single engine failure can lead to crashes / crash landings.



StormBreaker said:


> Doesn’t matter,
> Pilot seems to be the culprit after thorough thinking



Everybody here is an aviation expert overnight. 

Maybe it was pilot error; maybe not. Time will tell.

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## Hallian_Khan

I have audio between pilot n tower in which pilot can be heard clearly saying, engine failed.. I dnt know how to share audio frim mobile


BHarwana said:


> 11 years old
> The reason of the crash from cockpit tower communication seems to be engine faliure. But these are early reports so don't take them final.
> 
> Total people on board including crew are 99
> 
> 2 women 1 man and 1 child rescued alive and in hospital.


----------



## StormBreaker

R Wing said:


> Of course the pilot was not lying. You might not be an aviation expert but I am assuming you're also not a child.
> 
> Engine failure happens in airplanes even if both engines are fine during take off (obviously if they weren't fine, the plane wouldn't take off!) Even a single engine failure can lead to crashes / crash landings.
> 
> 
> 
> Everybody here is an aviation expert overnight.
> 
> Maybe it was pilot error; maybe not. Time will tell.


@Trango Towers , Your an aeronautic, What do you make of it ?


----------



## Baghial

Tameem said:


> There are survivors definately... i hope a lot of.



a witness on tv claimed some passegers fell from the plane , before some explosion?


----------



## R Wing

StormBreaker said:


> @Trango Towers , Your an aeronautic, What do you make of it ?



I am not denying that it may be pilot error. All I'm saying is let's wait for more information. 

This supports your conclusion:
PIA Chief Executive Officer Air Marshal Arshad Malik, who has left for Karachi, said the pilot told the control room that there was a technical issue and he decided to go around rather than land even though two runways were ready for landing.
(from Dawn)

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## PanzerKiel

The aircraft in question (AP-BLD, msn 2274) experienced two safety-related incidents: 

2018-09-04 bird-strike Faisalabad, radome damage 

2017-09-05 hydraulic failure on appr. to Lahore, flightcrew had to lower the gear by alternate system 

Source(s): JACDEC Database

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## Gibbs

RIP.. Need to reset 2020.. What a horrible cluster feck it has been so far

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## Yaseen1

i not understand why these airplane manufacturing companies not use this russian concept to reduce casualties when something go wrong

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## FuturePAF

StormBreaker said:


> Doesn’t matter,
> Pilot seems to be the culprit after thorough thinking


It could have been a maintenance issue that limited the pilots ability to control the plane, as in the Heathrow crash video above. The pilot may not have been adequately trained to deal with the possibility of a disable aircraft that close to the ground. We need to wait for the investigation to find out what happened. For now we should look into the training records of pilot training as well as the maintenance record of the plane.

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## StormBreaker

Poor boy, Poor poor boy

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## halupridol

Rip. 

Airports shud be outside city.

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## LeGenD

Ghareeb_Da_Baal said:


> Sad to see banya from India starting to make stupid and cold comments. May God rid us if these filthy people.


Inappropriate statement alert. Please refrain.

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## FuturePAF

PanzerKiel said:


> The aircraft in question (AP-BLD, msn 2274) experienced two safety-related incidents:
> 
> 2018-09-04 bird-strike Faisalabad, radome damage
> 
> 2017-09-05 hydraulic failure on appr. to Lahore, flightcrew had to lower the gear by alternate system
> 
> Source(s): JACDEC Database



The hydraulic failure and how it was repaired maybe at fault. Perhaps the repair was not done to standards. Eventually, after a number of years, some part failed, leading the engine failure at low altitude today.

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## KhanBaba2

RIP

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## FuturePAF

halupridol said:


> Rip.
> 
> Airports shud be outside city.


Or at least 1000 meters should be clear on the approaches to the runways.

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## Lincoln

Very tragic news, best to pray.

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## Soumitra

RIP to the dead. May the injured recover quickly.

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## Hiraa

inna lillahi wa inna ilahye rajiun.

This is horrific. I am numb right now. Hopefully there are survivors

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## R Wing

FuturePAF said:


> The hydraulic failure and how it was repaired maybe at fault. Perhaps the repair was not done to standards. Eventually, after a number of years, some part failed, leading the engine failure at low altitude today.



There seem to be conflicting reports between a hydraulic failure of the landing gear VS. an engine failure.

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## FuturePAF

Yaseen1 said:


> i not understand why these airplane manufacturing companies not use this russian concept to reduce casualties when something go wrong



may low altitude it may not have helped anyway.


----------



## Rusty

manga said:


> Corona, cyclones, dams getting busted, planes falling down (military and civilian both) , earthquakes, locust attack. 2020 is having it all.


world economic recession, global pandemic. 
At this rate we are going to end 2020 with a nuke dropping somewhere.

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## FuturePAF

R Wing said:


> There seem to be conflicting reports between a hydraulic failure of the landing gear VS. an engine failure.



hopefully the ATC was equipped with a decent camera system. The crash site is within line of site of the tower


----------



## Yaseen1

but if capsule is released chances of people being killed from fire will be less


FuturePAF said:


> may low altitude it may not have helped anyway.


----------



## pak-marine

where is the fucking wisdom in having a residential area less than a kilometer from the runaway ,Ground + 2 and 3 structures , absolute greed and jihalat and corrupt mind set should also be checked

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## PanzerKiel

R Wing said:


> There seem to be conflicting reports between a hydraulic failure of the landing gear VS. an engine failure.



Sources confirm both of them.

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## PDF

Mayday call was made to ATC.


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## FuturePAF

Rusty said:


> world economic recession, global pandemic.
> At this rate we are going to end 2020 with a nuke dropping somewhere.



Touba touba
Allah forbid



Yaseen1 said:


> but if capsule is released chances of people being killed from fire will be less


its not the fire but the rate of impact, that close to the ground and that fast, the capsule may not be able to deploy the parachutes and could have just as easily hit the houses uncontrollably.


----------



## Rusty

StormBreaker said:


> Doesn’t matter,
> Pilot seems to be the culprit after thorough thinking


that is not how anything in the real world works. 

We need to wait for an investigation before we can say anything. 
Otherwise, everyone can "thorough thinking" everything and call it a day.

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## pak-marine

Rusty said:


> world economic recession, global pandemic.
> At this rate we are going to end 2020 with a nuke dropping somewhere.


agreed 2020 was a fckd up year , shyt news just keep on coming

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## Baghial

FuturePAF said:


> hopefully the ATC was equipped with a decent camera system. The crash site is within line of site of the tower



some people on roof tops claimed they have videos of near landing/crash?

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## Blacklight

PanzerKiel said:


> Sources confirm both of them.


Absolutely - Catastrophic multiple system failure.

Pilot did his best. Definitely NO pilot error.

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## Rusty

I urge everyone to stop speculating and let the facts come out. 
For now all we should be doing is giving prayers to everyone involved.

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## Baghial

Hachiman said:


> Mayday call was made to ATC.


 CAA- has no DG-
action.
aviation sec came from archeaogly?
management policy, regulations, comprimised?


----------



## Vortex

*Inna lillah wa inna ilayhi raaji'uun*

May Allah give sabr to the victims’ families and open the doors of Jannat for all deceased. May Allah give wisdom to Pakistani awam.


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## PanzerKiel

Video of the aircraft crashing is on tV now, someone made it from a rooftop....

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## Baghial

bank of punjab chaiman survived crash. who was in plane.

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## LeGenD

Survivors being reported; BOP President being one. This is a miracle.

Allah Almighty ki shaan. Mashallah.

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## WebMaster

Baghial said:


> bank of punjab chaiman survived crash. who was in plane.


Thats great news. We need more survivors. Inshallah.

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## Village life

RIP , we should wait for official statement before making any speculations, please pray for least losses of lives, pray astaghfar and, la ilaha illa anta subhanaka inni kuntu minaz zalimeen,

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## Baghial

WebMaster said:


> Thats great news. We need more survivors. Inshallah.


 hospitals rescue, claim, 40 , people taken to emergency treatment?

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## Ghessan

that's sad, real sad news. Allah bless the departed souls, ameen.


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## Rusty

LeGenD said:


> Survivors being reported; BOP President being one. This is a miracle.
> 
> Allah Almighty ki shaan. Mashallah.


Thank GOD!!
Do you have a link?


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## WebMaster

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1263794377794748416


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## Baghial

PanzerKiel said:


> Sources confirm both of them.


 multiple failures?
alleged video on tv, shows atleast 1 engine on fire/ somoke?


----------



## Blacklight

PanzerKiel said:


> Video of the aircraft crashing is on tV now, someone made it from a rooftop....


Video I saw had a *turboprop,* then it disappears into the horizon, and then the crash site. Same video?


----------



## bafxet

انا لله وانا اليه راجعون 
Sadly it is fact that the record of PIA and other domestic carrier is not something that one came take pride on


----------



## drumstick

let there be as many survivors as possible, no loss of life please. every life is precious and important. 

my prayers are with the once who lost their near and dear once.... so sad and tragic.

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## raptor22

RIP .. hope more people would be rescued ..


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## taha3301

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1263797292504698880

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## PanzerKiel

Blacklight said:


> Video I saw had a *turboprop,* then it disappears into the horizon, and then the crash site. Same video?



Nopes, its different.....

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## WebMaster

Refrain from blaming pilot unless you have participated in complete investigation which i know most of you haven’t.

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## Mohsin A

Am I right in saying that you lose hydraulic systems in the case of total engine failure? If so, it looks like this was the cause. In this situation, pilots normally engage the APU.


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## WebMaster

StormBreaker said:


> View attachment 634778
> 
> 
> Poor boy, Poor poor boy


This guy survived according to post above. Mashallah.

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## PDF

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1263798856808046592

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## PaklovesTurkiye

taha3301 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1263797292504698880



@StormBreaker ...

The FB post of the boy you quoted here seemed to have survived this...Alhamdulillah

Check the post I have quoted

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## Baghial

Pakistani model Zara Abid has died in today's plane crash in Karachi. #Pakistan #RIP


----------



## PDF




----------



## LeGenD

Rusty said:


> Thank GOD!!
> Do you have a link?


Check this link: https://www.brecorder.com/2020/05/22/599785/survivors-rescued-from-pk-8303-crash-site/

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## pak-marine

saw on tv 2 passengers survived

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## IMARV

My condolences.

They were so close yet so far !!


----------



## PaklovesTurkiye

Baghial said:


> Pakistani model Zara Abid has died in today's plane crash in Karachi. #Pakistan #RIP



May Allah shows mercy to her and all passengers who became shaheed in this crash

May their families bestowed with blessings and patience.

Ameen

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## Blacklight

PanzerKiel said:


> Nopes, its different.....





Hachiman said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1263798856808046592


Dunya News is showing the same footage

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## StormBreaker

WebMaster said:


> This guy survived according to post above. Mashallah.


Alhamdullilah


----------



## PDF

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1263801039809110016




Ground victims

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## PaklovesTurkiye

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1263798574875369483


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## Baghial

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> May Allah shows mercy to her and all passengers who became shaheed in this crash
> 
> May their families bestowed with blessings and patience.
> 
> Ameen


To imagine they were probably going for Eid to be with their families. Being islolated due to corona and finally some happiness and reunion. Its just so heartbreaking. May Allah have mercy. And those that must anxiously be awaiting their return. So senseless and painful

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## R Wing

Blacklight said:


> Absolutely - Catastrophic multiple system failure.
> 
> Pilot did his best. Definitely NO pilot error.



PIA Chief Executive Officer Air Marshal Arshad Malik, who has left for Karachi, said the pilot told the control room that there was a technical issue and he decided to go around rather than land even though two runways were ready for landing. 

...so I guess the pilot tried to give the landing gear another shot rather than do an emergency belly landing on the cleared runways? and then, when he circled back, he couldn't reach the runway and crash landed right before?

Thank God for survivors. Did the pilot survive?



pak-marine said:


> where is the fucking wisdom in having a residential area less than a kilometer from the runaway ,Ground + 2 and 3 structures , absolute greed and jihalat and corrupt mind set should also be checked



Welcome to Pakistan.

90% of our problems are all structural --- wrong people inducted into govt and making the wrong policies.

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## Ace of Spades

INNA LILAHI WA INNA ILIHI RAJIUN

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## xenon54 out

pak-marine said:


> I hope this is not true else very irresponsible


This has been done before, its a common procedure to visually confirm whether the landing gear is deloyed or not.
The question is how the pilots miscalculated their height.

RIP to the deceased.

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## Counter-Errorist

The aircraft been in storage for last 2 months due to COVID-19.
It's possible maintenance checks weren't thorough enough to notice the landing gear issue (which according to @PanzerKiel had previously been repaired)

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## PDF



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## Baghial

R Wing said:


> PIA Chief Executive Officer Air Marshal Arshad Malik, who has left for Karachi, said the pilot told the control room that there was a technical issue and he decided to go around rather than land even though two runways were ready for landing.
> 
> ...so I guess the pilot tried to give the landing gear another shot rather than do an emergency belly landing on the cleared runways? and then, when he circled back, he couldn't reach the runway and crash landed right before?
> 
> Thank God for survivors. Did the pilot survive?




multiple failures , after go around? then he called mayday.?
seems like the pilot was in approach for a belly landing,.. another 1 minute he, would have been on runway..

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## Counter-Errorist

R Wing said:


> PIA Chief Executive Officer Air Marshal Arshad Malik, who has left for Karachi, said the pilot told the control room that there was a technical issue and he decided to go around rather than land even though two runways were ready for landing.


Already blaming the pilot.
Rozay ke bad galiya nikalonga!

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## BHarwana

There is one confirmed survivor from the plane. Chairman Punjab bank has survived the crash and is being treated in hospital.

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## R Wing

Hachiman said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1263801039809110016



Wow. He said we have lost engines. At that point, it's just about trying to make it to the runway for a belly landing.


----------



## PDF

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1263801092929916929

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1263796907597537280

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## Mohsin A

Listening to the ATC is painful indeed!

The pilot states "We are comfortable now" and requests a go-around.
When asked to go to 3000 he realises the engines not responding at which point panic sets in.
Things may have been different if he attempted a belly landing as trying to increase altitude for go-around may have lost him a precious few hundred meters to get onto the airport land atleast

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## PDF

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1263793849484410887


----------



## R Wing

Counter-Errorist said:


> Already blaming the pilot.
> Rozay ke bad galiya nikalonga!



This was copy/pasted from a Dawn article, which quoted him directly. 

Not blaming the pilot at all. Trying to understand what happened. In fact, earlier in the thread, I told people off for blaming the pilot.

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## terry5

Innalillahi wainalrajioun


----------



## PDF



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## terry5

Sad news


----------



## StormBreaker

Hachiman said:


>


3 people with surname pola,
I guess 3 brothers dies


----------



## Baghial

R Wing said:


> Wow. He said we have lost engines. At that point, it's just about trying to make it to the runway for a belly landing.





R Wing said:


> Wow. He said we have lost engines. At that point, it's just about trying to make it to the runway for a belly landing.




lost engine means , both engines, which is very , very rear...........this plane can land with 1 engine failure, and landing gare failure, but both engines failure is very low %

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## Counter-Errorist

R Wing said:


> This was copy/pasted from a Dawn article, which quoted him directly.
> 
> Not blaming the pilot at all. Trying to understand what happened. In fact, earlier in the thread, I told people off for blaming the pilot.


Sorry, I meant the CEO, not you.

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## StormBreaker

pak-marine said:


> where is the fucking wisdom in having a residential area less than a kilometer from the runaway ,Ground + 2 and 3 structures , absolute greed and jihalat and corrupt mind set should also be checked


That is an encroached area.

Agar karachi se encroachment khatam hojaye to abadi cut ke 40% pe ajaegi


----------



## Trango Towers

StormBreaker said:


> @Trango Towers , Your an aeronautic, What do you make of it ?


A320...I helped do the stress analysis on the trailing edge inner wing. 
Engine failure can happen at anytime. Could have been a brid strike could have been something else. It's too early to say 

May Allah have mercy

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## Fawadqasim1



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## maxpayne

did not survive


WebMaster said:


> This guy survived according to post above. Mashallah.


----------



## TOPGUN

Very sad news may ALLAH bless their souls !!


----------



## Baghial

exact location of crash

so near the runway..






300/400 meters away from runway


----------



## pak-marine

StormBreaker said:


> That is an encroached area.
> 
> Agar karachi se encroachment khatam hojaye to abadi cut ke 40% pe ajaegi


its not encroached area those are mostly kutchi abadis however the area has many illegal structures with Ground + 3 structures , allowed limit is g + 2


----------



## PDF

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1263809780478599170

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## Arsalan

Ghareeb_Da_Baal said:


> there is something mentally wrong with the creatures. One asshole is complaining that how come theer were only a few ambulances at the scene and that how India was with the civilians of Pakistan and willing to help. these pieces of shit need to take care of 100 million-plus who live together in slums and those who have to eat rats & are now eating dogs before getting involved in another country's business. These are the worst of the kuffar and the conduct of their ordinary citizens reflects that. What a piece of feces country & countrymen


Some people some cultures are just hopeless you know. Anyway, lets not discuss this further as it will just derail the thread. Lets stick to this topic, albeit a tragic one.

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## Baghial

Trango Towers said:


> A320...I helped do the stress analysis on the trailing edge inner wing.
> Engine failure can happen at anytime. Could have been a brid strike could have been something else. It's too early to say
> 
> May Allah have mercy



bird strike? both engines? very low% of that, seems like the pilot was on path for a belly landing, a critical error of height looks to be the cause of crash on residential area,..


----------



## Imran Khan



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## Trango Towers

Baghial said:


> exact location of crash
> 
> so near the runway..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 300/400 meters away from runway


As it's so close to the runway could it be a problem with the altimeter? Showing an incorrect height?


----------



## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Supreme court takes SU moto and removes the CEO of PIA who had Airforce experience to force the airline to run by monkeys in Union


Result = Accident

When Supreme court is forcing airline to run with no CEO what can be stated further


----------



## Esgalduin

raptor22 said:


> RIP .. more devastating is it crashed in a residential area . hope no one injured or killed there ...


From the video, it looks like the upper floors of some buildings were sheared off. The locality looks like some shelled neighbourhood from Syria.


----------



## Syed1.

Imran Khan said:


>



Plane survivor?


----------



## Arsalan

Imran Khan said:


>





Syed1. said:


> Plane survivor?


This is most likely from the houses destroyed because of the crash and not from the plane!

A lot of videos and pictures and more importantly, a lot of blaming going around. This is time to refrain from spreading anything that is not certain.


*Requesting all members here not to act like Pakistani media which in a race to break news (post first) will post anything and everything without considering the consequences. *

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## Yaseen1

i think at present he is continuing as ceo


AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Supreme court takes SU moto and removes the CEO of PIA who had Airforce experience to force the airline to run by monkeys in Union
> 
> 
> Result = Accident

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## Raj-Hindustani

Ghareeb_Da_Baal said:


> View attachment 634799



What a such few idiots we have in our county. They are shameless otherwise no human can talk on such way. Idiots

On behalf of them, I would like to regret.

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## Vergennes

What a tragedy. May they rest in peace.

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## Raj-Hindustani

Trango Towers said:


> As it's so close to the runway could it be a problem with the altimeter? Showing an incorrect height?



Why house's are too close to runways?


----------



## Daniel808

Just read the news.

My deep condolences to our Pakistani brother, may they rest in peace.


----------



## Baghial

Trango Towers said:


> As it's so close to the runway could it be a problem with the altimeter? Showing an incorrect height?



investigation will probably show, multiple failures,
mostly in CAA.... pilot is hero, he was cool and calm even in mayday situtation, listining to audio,

our pilots are excellent , all around the world, working in different airlines,

problem is maintanance, safety,decline in standards in all areas of airline operations.

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## Caprxl

إِنَّا لِلَّٰهِ وَإِنَّا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعُونَ‎,
Point to be noted, both engines failed.

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## drunken-monke

May all the departed souls rest in peace! May all injured recover speedily! Those who have lost their kin, find strength in this grief. This is unfortunate in the holy month of Ramzan. 

We may have differences being Indians or Pakistanis, but as a human if we don't feel grief on loss of innocent life, we should doubt ourselves as humans!!

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## Baghial

Yaseen1 said:


> i think at present he is continuing as ceo




also no DG of aviation, post is vacant sine a some time
a sec is acting DG,, who came from archealogy ministery ,i think,
lack of seriousness, on matters of utmost safety by govt?

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## PDF

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1263814170773983233

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## Dark-Destroyer

إِنَّا لِلَّٰهِ وَإِنَّا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعُونَ

Ya Allah have mercy on their souls.

Ya Allah have mercy on their families grant them strength in this difficult time.

Ya Allah grant the departed souls Jannah.

Ameen.

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## AsianLion

Its is allover World News media, CNN, Sky News, BBC News, Aljeezera, CBC, Russian TV, European TVs, Chinese TV, FOX, TRT etc etc

Planes have been parked on lockdown for 2 months in Coronovirus and not properly maintained when just last week A320s started flying again.

All world airplanes should be thoroughly checked after resuming flights.

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## Blacklight

drunken-monke said:


> May all the departed souls rest in peace! May all injured recover speedily! Those who have lost their kin, find strength in this grief. This is unfortunate in the holy month of Ramzan.
> 
> We may have differences being Indians or Pakistanis, but as a human if we don't feel grief on loss of innocent life, we should doubt ourselves as humans!!


Thank You, I didn't know anyone onboard, or those whose houses got demolished, but I'm immensely sad at this tragedy. Opens up old wounds.

So many innocent lives lost, just when Eid is around the bend.

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## -------

Deepest condolences to brotherly Pakistan for their loss in the tragic PIA aeroplane crash in Karachi. May Allah grant a place in heaven for those who lost their lives, and give patience to their families and beloved ones.

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## JSCh

Condolence.

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## Cthulhu

RIP to the deceased, Fast recovery to the injured.

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## ANMDT

RIP and condolences to the relatives of deceased.

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## Safriz

Altitude data.
The plane came down in 17 minutes. But things seems to have gone wrong in the last 6 minutes where the plane is gaining and losing altitude .







there are two survivors

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## merzifonlu

RIP and condolences to the relatives of deceased.

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## BHarwana

Black box has been recovered from the plane

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## Blacklight

Safriz said:


> Altitude data.
> The plane came down in 17 minutes. But things seems to have gone wrong in the last 6 minutes where the plane is gaining and losing altitude .
> 
> View attachment 634809
> 
> 
> there are two survivors





BHarwana said:


> Black box has been recovered from the plane


The recent "Certificate of Maintenance Review" aka "A Check" issued for AP-BLD, on 28-04-2020 was valid till 25-10-2020.

As per the Certificate
Type: A320-214,
Reg: AP-BLD
Hours: 47,108
Cycles: 25,860

Certificate approved by Chief Engineer Quality Assurance, PIA J.I.A.P. Karachi, Noorul Qadir. AME No. 1436 on 28 April 2020.

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## Baghial

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1263813476302098433
miracle do happen

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## Dalit

إنا لله وإنا إليه راجعون May Allah give strength and patience to families of the deceased. I hope there are many survivors.

Looks like a heavy technical fault.

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## Baghial

Hachiman said:


> Capt sajjad Gul reported alive but in critical condition.


Salute to those who are rescuing risking their own life. Allah SWT saved one life. May Allah grant jannah to the deceased ones and patience to the family!

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## PanzerKiel

Hachiman said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1263818970005676034Alleged fall.




that appears to be a turbo prop.....this video was probably recorded with a tilted cam to appear as the plane is crashing...i remember seeing this video once Junaid Jamshed died in the crash...no?

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## PDF

PanzerKiel said:


> that appears to be a turbo prop.....this video was probably recorded with a titled cam to appear as the plane is crashing...i remember seeing this video once Junaid Jamshed died in the crash...no?


actually, I doubted it...but sm is hastily sharing.... Pleas not that it on sm nothing is confirmed...wait for credible news.

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## Blacklight

Hachiman said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1263818970005676034Alleged fall.


Brother this is a turboprop.

@PanzerKiel This was the 1st video I saw, someone took this clip, and added the bellowing smoke video. Dont know what to say!

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## PanzerKiel

Blacklight said:


> Brother this is a turboprop.
> 
> @PanzerKiel This was the 1st video I saw, someone took this clip, and added the bellowing smoke video. Dont know what to say!



its an old video, not even of a crash



Blacklight said:


> Brother this is a turboprop.
> 
> @PanzerKiel This was the 1st video I saw, someone took this clip, and added the bellowing smoke video. Dont know what to say!



bhai never mind.....!

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## Blacklight

PanzerKiel said:


> its an old video, not even of a crash


Exactly! What I dont understand is why indulge in this? For what? Two minutes of fame?

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## Amavous

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1263820943937454080

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## PanzerKiel

Blacklight said:


> Exactly! What I dont understand is why indulge in this? For what? Two minutes of fame?



bhai leave it, let it go....


I have lost quiet a few whom i knew....in this disaster...

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## Pakistani Fighter

Amavous said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1263820943937454080


He belongs from Airforce?


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## Mohsin A

Could this be the video of the aircraft? 2nd video down.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...a-Karachi-Pakistan.html#v-6695471574892920100


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## airomerix

Right before short final




. Notice the smoke from the left engine.

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## Blacklight

PanzerKiel said:


> bhai leave it, let it go....
> 
> 
> I have lost quiet a few whom i knew....in this disaster...


My heartfelt condolences.

May Allah give them a high place in Jannat, and Patience / Perseverance to their loved ones.

Extremely heartbreaking.

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## JafarQureshi

PanzerKiel said:


> bhai leave it, let it go....
> 
> 
> I have lost quiet a few whom i knew....in this disaster...



Are you saying that this was a sabotage?


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## PaklovesTurkiye

PanzerKiel said:


> I have lost quiet a few whom i knew....in this disaster...



Really?? 

Please don't say this

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## Baghial

Very heartbreaking to know the #PIA plan crash on Karachi near airport model coloni,these are our people, before #Eid


 very sad news all of us,2020 year is very tough for us,we already face pandemic situation now the other happen happened, our sympathy to all families

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## El Sidd

إِنَّا لِلَّٰهِ وَإِنَّا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعُونَ‎

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## PDF



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## Mohsin A

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/embed/video/2177130.html

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## BHarwana

First survivor of the plane crash discharged from the hospital. There are reports of other survivors please pray for them.

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## DalalErMaNodi

May God rest their souls and ease the pain of those who have lost their dearest.

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## WebMaster

airomerix said:


> Right before short final
> View attachment 634812
> . Notice the smoke from the left engine.


Looks like both engines.

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## Indos

Innalillahi wa inna ilaihi rojiun. Tragic event. It look like have relation with the outbreak effect.

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## raptor22

Esgalduin said:


> From the video, it looks like the upper floors of some buildings were sheared off. The locality looks like some shelled neighbourhood from Syria.


Well a plane crushed there ... hope more people would be rescued ...


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Mohsin A said:


> Am I right in saying that you lose hydraulic systems in the case of total engine failure? If so, it looks like this was the cause. In this situation, pilots normally engage the APU.


APU is normally on at all times but it does not provide all the required systems hence you have an other system Ram Air Turbine (RAT). 



Hachiman said:


> View attachment 634797


My dad who is an ex PIA Captain showed similar remarks but he did say that 3000 ft and 5 miles from runway is enough however what actually happened can only be seen after an investigation.

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## PanzerKiel

Pakistani Fighter said:


> He belongs from Airforce?


Army

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## Mohsin A

Have a look at the bottom of both engines in the images of this Tweet. Seems like the engines have burnt out


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1263810587152330752

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## PanzerKiel

JafarQureshi said:


> Are you saying that this was a sabotage?



Hain.... Sorry but of course not... Who said anything about sabotage?

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## Baghial

Hachiman said:


> View attachment 634813


 both engines can be seen burnt out, carbon residue on engine body?

An aircraft will glide perfectly well even if all its engines fail. In fact, the chances are that if you’ve flown in a plane, you’ve seen it glide at some point (more about this later). Aircraft are able to fly through the movement of air passing over the wings. As long as this process continues the aircraft will continue to fly. If both engines fail, the aeroplane is no longer being pushed forwards, therefore in order to keep the air flowing over the wings, the aircraft must exchange energy through losing altitude to maintain forward airspeed. The aircraft doesn’t have to lose altitude particularly rapidly to keep flying and therefore it both engines were to fail a high altitude, the aircraft may have as much as 20 – 30 minutes aloft to find somewhere to land.

Here’s an example. A typical commercial aircraft has a lift to drag ratio of around 10:1. This means that for every 10 miles it travels forward it looses 1 mile in altitude. If an aircraft is at a typical cruise altitude of 36,000 (which is 6 miles up) and looses both engines, it can travel a forward distance of 60 miles before reaching the ground.


Rest assured, dual engine failure is almost unheard of. We all know about the story of the Hudson River landing in New York, but that really was exceptional – and everyone survived thanks to the quick actions of the flight crew.

One other exception was Air Transat Flight 236. The plane had a fuel leak causing both engines to fail at approximately 65 nautical miles from Lajes Air Base in the Azores. With an average descent rate of 2000 fpm, the aircraft glided without power to the airbase where the crew carried out a successful landing about 17 minutes after the last engine failed.

The lower the engine power, the less fuel the engines burn. On most flights we try and burn as little fuel as possible and part of this process involves descending the aircraft towards the destination airport at idle (minimum) thrust. When the thrust is at it’s minimum setting, it isn’t really producing any meaningful thrust at all so the aircraft is effectively gliding. Therefore you will have experience the aircraft gliding on almost every flight you have been on!

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## WebMaster

PanzerKiel said:


> Hain.... Sorry but of course not... Who said anything about sabotage?


Ignore the false flag, taken care of.

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## koolio

Inna lillahi wa inna ilayhi *raji'un*

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## BHarwana

Pakistan Army's Urban search & rescue team is also on it way to Karachi. There is hope of more survivors from the crash.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1263812214483488769

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## El Sidd

PanzerKiel said:


> bhai leave it, let it go....
> 
> 
> I have lost quiet a few whom i knew....in this disaster...



I am desperately trying to contact the ones i know who live in this locality. It is highly densely populated area and i pray to Allah that we avert far greater numbers in this tragedy.

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## ArabianEmpires&Caliphates

إنا لله وإنا إليه راجعون​Speedy recovery to the survivors and families affected. A very tragic incident.

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## airomerix

WebMaster said:


> Looks like both engines.



1)RAM air turbine deployed which means, both engines failed an APU failed or was out of service(mostly in PIA a320s)

2) the black soot emerging from within the engine cowlings, this may have been caused by the IDGs which generates electricity for the plane and is the most changed component of the engine, it probably ran out of oil and overheated.

The pilots had no power and relied on RAT and once reaching approach speeds it was useless too.

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## Trango Towers

Apparently the aircraft circled 3 times as it had landing gear trouble.

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## Safriz

Mohsin A said:


> Have a look at the bottom of both engines in the images of this Tweet. Seems like the engines have burnt out
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1263810587152330752


Both engines have significant damage underneath. How did that happen?

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## Mohsin A

Noticed from the images that the FLAPS were not deployed. Is this normal during approach and also could this point to total Engine & Hydraulics failure?

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## TechMan

Could bird strike be cause of engine failures?


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## ARMalik

A very tragic day for a lot of families so close to Eid. May God give them the courage to deal with this very sad event. RIP. It is going to be very, very difficult for people to deal with this.

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## PakSword

Seems a bird strike on approach. Lately, there have been too many birds in that area, specially the populated area. A plane can't lose both engines simultaneously unless big birds such as black kites, which are in plenty in Karachi nowadays, strike the plane. These birds fly high and in large numbers. 

They are all Shuhada, the passengers as well as those who died on the ground. Also, they are gone in the blessed month of Ramadan, in shaa Allah they are going to Jannah directly. May Allah give sabr to the kins of those who died. 

The Final Prophet _(Peace be upon him)_ said, “The martyrs are seven, other than the one who is killed in the Way of Allaah, Ta’aalaa:
– one who dies of plague,
– one who drowns,
– one who dies of pleurisy,
– one who dies of stomachache,
– one who dies due to burning
– one who dies under a demolition (by accident)
– a woman who dies with a baby in her womb.”

(Maalik, Aboo Dawood, An-Nasaaee, Ibn Maajah, Ibn Hibban, Haakim, Ahmad. Authenticated by Sheikh Muhammad Nasir-ud-Deen al-Albani)

May Allah give speedy recovery to the wounded.

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## NeonNinja

Inna Lillahi wa inna ilayhi raji'un


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## Counter-Errorist

PanzerKiel said:


> bhai leave it, let it go....
> 
> 
> I have lost quiet a few whom i knew....in this disaster...


I'm truly sorry to hear that.

May Allah ease the pain of those mourning their loved ones, and a place in Jannat ul Firdous to those who passed away.

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## SQ8

PakSword said:


> Seems a bird strike on approach. Lately, there have been too many birds in that area, specially the populated area. A plane can't lose both engines simultaneously unless big birds such as black kites, which are in plenty in Karachi nowadays, strike the plane. These birds fly high and in large numbers.
> 
> They are all Shuhada, the passengers as well as those who died on the ground. Also, they are gone in the blessed month of Ramadan, in shaa Allah they are going to Jannah directly. May Allah give sabr to the kins of those who died.
> 
> The Final Prophet _(Peace be upon him)_ said, “The martyrs are seven, other than the one who is killed in the Way of Allaah, Ta’aalaa:
> – one who dies of plague,
> – one who drowns,
> – one who dies of pleurisy,
> – one who dies of stomachache,
> – one who dies due to burning
> – one who dies under a demolition (by accident)
> – a woman who dies with a baby in her womb.”
> 
> (Maalik, Aboo Dawood, An-Nasaaee, Ibn Maajah, Ibn Hibban, Haakim, Ahmad. Authenticated by Sheikh Muhammad Nasir-ud-Deen al-Albani)
> 
> May Allah give speedy recovery to the wounded.


There is actually one in that final picture. The practice of dumping trash near the approaches continues(well Pakistanis dump trash everywhere) which is going to keep these risks high.

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## Baghial

Trango Towers said:


> Apparently the aircraft circled 3 times as it had landing gear trouble.


.. its standerd procedure, for landing gear malfunctions, without hydarulic fluid in central hydraulic system, several flight systems become inoperative.among them wing spoilers, the center autopilot,extension and retraction flaps

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## Safriz

Look at the engines. Look jagged and burnt on the bottom.

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## PakSword

Socra said:


> There is actually one in that final picture. The practice of dumping trash near the approaches continues(well Pakistanis dump trash everywhere) which is going to keep these risks high.


This is why I am pretty sure it is a bird strike.. but anyway it's my opinion.. let the investigation results come and only then we can ascertain the exact reason.

This is from 2019 article on pkaviation:

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## StormBreaker

PakSword said:


> Seems a bird strike on approach. Lately, there have been too many birds in that area, specially the populated area. A plane can't lose both engines simultaneously unless big birds such as black kites, which are in plenty in Karachi nowadays, strike the plane. These birds fly high and in large numbers.
> 
> They are all Shuhada, the passengers as well as those who died on the ground. Also, they are gone in the blessed month of Ramadan, in shaa Allah they are going to Jannah directly. May Allah give sabr to the kins of those who died.
> 
> The Final Prophet _(Peace be upon him)_ said, “The martyrs are seven, other than the one who is killed in the Way of Allaah, Ta’aalaa:
> – one who dies of plague,
> – one who drowns,
> – one who dies of pleurisy,
> – one who dies of stomachache,
> – one who dies due to burning
> – one who dies under a demolition (by accident)
> – a woman who dies with a baby in her womb.”
> 
> (Maalik, Aboo Dawood, An-Nasaaee, Ibn Maajah, Ibn Hibban, Haakim, Ahmad. Authenticated by Sheikh Muhammad Nasir-ud-Deen al-Albani)
> 
> May Allah give speedy recovery to the wounded.


Allah gifted them paradise in the almost last day of Ramadan,

What a gift for them, Yet we are left with deep sorrow and grief over the tragedy, As if the pandemic and financial crisis weren’t enough...

The reason why some people survived is because of the buildings it fell on,
Usually, It is recommended in sky diving, If chute fails, Try to land on a building roof, Like a hut, Which has high chance of breaking upon impact and hence, Momentum impacted, Energy lost to the structure, Impact effect greatly reduced.

The buildings most probably 3 storey, They sort of helped the plane from completely going zero with the ground

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## El Sidd

Blacklight said:


> The recent "Certificate of Maintenance Review" issued for AP-BLD, on 28-04-2020 was valid till 25-10-2020.
> 
> As per the Certificate
> Type: A320-214,
> Reg: AP-BLD
> Hours: 47,108
> Cycles: 25,860
> 
> Certificate approved by Chief Engineer Quality Assurance, PIA J.I.A.P. Karachi, Noorul Qadir. AME No. 1436 on 28 April 2020.



Who gave clearance to fly from Lahore? What was this plane's penultimate completed trip?

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## StormBreaker

Safriz said:


> View attachment 634815
> 
> 
> Look at the engines. Look jagged and burnt on the bottom.


Where is the gearbox located in Turbofans ?


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## BHarwana

We have 3 confirmed survivors till now. Hope for more is there please pray for them .

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## Baghial

Condolences to the families of the victims. What a heart wrenching incident. A flight that landed to heaven on juma tul wida. Really saddening

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## El Sidd

BHarwana said:


> We have 3 confirmed survivors till now. Hope for more is there please pray for them .



from the plane or the crash site? there are 2 different legal crash sites at play here.

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## Counter-Errorist

Safriz said:


> View attachment 634815
> 
> 
> Look at the engines. Look jagged and burnt on the bottom.


Aborted belly landing?


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## Baghial

Huge respect for@AlkhidmatOrg
, distribution of aftaar among forces, rescue staff in model colony.plane crash
.

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## DalalErMaNodi

Ghareeb_Da_Baal said:


> View attachment 634799



الله يلعنكم some people have no humanity in them

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## Counter-Errorist

Counter-Errorist said:


> Aborted belly landing?


This might be why the engines failed.

Landing gear issue. Pilot attempts belly landing. Aborts. While doing a go around for next attempt, engines give out from damage.

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## WebMaster

PakSword said:


> This is why I am pretty sure it is a bird strike.. but anyway it's my opinion.. let the investigation results come and only then we can ascertain the exact reason.
> 
> This is from 2019 article on pkaviation:
> 
> View attachment 634816
> 
> 
> View attachment 634817


Well, Model Colony is not a trash free area, opps whole Karachi isn't! There is no way to fix our people, we need to move the airport. I am sure Zardari's friends can assist in finding a proper location.

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## Safriz

Counter-Errorist said:


> Aborted belly landing?


Doesn't look like. The belly of the plane has no scraping marks


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## Aspen

I spotted this aircraft few years ago. RIP to those who perished

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## SQ8

airomerix said:


> 1)RAM air turbine deployed which means, both engines failed an APU failed or was out of service(mostly in PIA a320s)
> 
> 2) the black soot emerging from within the engine cowlings, this may have been caused by the IDGs which generates electricity for the plane and is the most changed component of the engine, it probably ran out of oil and overheated.
> 
> The pilots had no power and relied on RAT and once reaching approach speeds it was useless too.


The APU being unserviceable may sound horrible but it is a common practice among more than a few airlines including emirates, southwest, frontier and so on.

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## PanzerKiel

Safriz said:


> Doesn't look like. The belly of the plane has no scraping marks



Aborted means it was called off before the plane started out.

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## ghazi52

DG ISPR
@OfficialDGISPR
·

Update #PIA Incident: To speed up relief & rescue efforts, Army Urban Search & Rescue Team with special equipment & rescue specialists flown from Rwp. 10 fire tenders at site have extinguished fire. Military ambulances busy in rescuing injured & providing necessary medical care.






DG ISPR
@OfficialDGISPR
·

Update #PIA Incident: Pak Army Aviation helicopters flown for damage assessment and rescue efforts. Urban Search & Rescue Teams are being sent on site for rescue efforts.

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## PaklovesTurkiye

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1263817721550077954

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## Safriz

PanzerKiel said:


> Aborted means it was called off before the plane started out.


But both engines are damaged on the bottom which raises the speculation that plane attempted belly landing and engines touched the runway and then pilot aborted.
I don't think that is even possible with a plane of this size.


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## PanzerKiel

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1263817721550077954



The pic is of Lt Balach, who also died. Not of Hamza Yusuf.



Safriz said:


> But both engines are damaged on the bottom which raises the speculation that plane attempted belly landing and engines touched the runway and then pilot aborted.
> I don't think that is even possible with a plane of this size.



The damage you see is hardly enough to correspond to an attempted belly landing .

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## PakSword

WebMaster said:


> Well, Model Colony is not a trash free area, opps whole Karachi isn't! There is no way to fix our people, we need to move the airport. I am sure Zardari's friends can assist in finding a proper location.









If you look at the above photo, you can see black kite bird above the plane. And what I have seen all my life living in Karachi, black kites don't come in single digits.

Model colony (just like any other area of Karachi) has been converted into a trash dump. CAA has the responsibility to maintain the area of 8 km radius around the airport, and it does. But like you said, what to do about the people?

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## Counter-Errorist

PanzerKiel said:


> Aborted means it was called off before the plane started out.


What do you make of the engine damage? Could that be a result of an aborted belly landing?
Seeing as both engines have very similar and angled damage, it seems more like a scrape than a bird strike.

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## airomerix

Socra said:


> The APU being unserviceable may sound horrible but it is a common practice among more than a few airlines including emirates, southwest, frontier and so on.



It definitely is. But it changes the odds drastically for the worse in the event of similar emergencies.


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## PanzerKiel

Counter-Errorist said:


> What do you make of the engine damage? Could that be a result of an aborted belly landing?
> Seeing as both engines have very similar and angled damage, it seems more like a scrape than a bird strike.



If the plane had indeed landed on its belly, then there should have been no reason for the pilot to lift off again.... Especially with the plane on the ground and landing gear already out of order...if he would have tried to lift off again with the plane on its belly instead of on wheels, then the damage would have been horrendous due to the opposite force on the plane due to engines thrust.

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## Counter-Errorist

Counter-Errorist said:


> What do you make of the engine damage? Could that be a result of an aborted belly landing?
> Seeing as both engines have very similar and angled damage, it seems more like a scrape than a bird strike.


FlightRadar graph shared earlier suggests an attempted landing too.

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## PakSword

Counter-Errorist said:


> What do you make of the engine damage? Could that be a result of an aborted belly landing?
> Seeing as both engines have very similar and angled damage, it seems more like a scrape than a bird strike.


Bhai aborted belly landing doesn't mean that the belly and engines touched the runway and then plane again took off.

Engine damage may point to fire inside the engine.

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## PanzerKiel

Counter-Errorist said:


> FlightRadar graph shared earlier suggests an attempted landing too.



Exactly, that was an attempted landing, not a landing.... Following which the pilot was probably told to go around.

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## Philosopher

I pray Allah grants all the departed souls entry into Jannah.

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## PakSword

Counter-Errorist said:


> What do you make of the engine damage? Could that be a result of an aborted belly landing?
> Seeing as both engines have very similar and angled damage, it seems more like a scrape than a bird strike.


This is what a bird strike looks like:

        View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram

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## jamahir

pak-marine said:


> There were 91 passengers on board



My commiserations for those on board and those caught up on the ground.

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## masterchief_mirza

Inna lillahi wa inna ilayhi rajioun.

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## BHarwana

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1263828671149813762

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## El Sidd

PakSword said:


> If you look at the above photo, you can see black kite bird above the plane. And what I have seen all my life living in Karachi, black kites don't come in single digits.
> 
> Model colony (just like any other area of Karachi) has been converted into a trash dump. CAA has the responsibility to maintain the area of 8 km radius around the airport, and it does. But like you said, what to do about the people?



It does not look like a bird strike. 

And that 8km is an arbitrary figure because of inter crossing of authorities having jurisdiction.


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## Raider 21

Tragic. Landing gear problems, engine problems with a miscalculated decision to burn too much fuel. Missed approach followed by Go-around and after that it was just tragic. As someone who works on A320s, this saddens me a lot.

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## Aspen

Unconfirmed but I am hearing reports of more survivors


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## Moonlight

Aspen said:


> Unconfirmed but I am hearing reports of more survivors



Not more but there are some people in very critical condition & I hope they survive.

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## Bil

Seems like a scene from Syria.

inali wa inna rajiun

Condolences to the family of the deceased.

Pilot last conversation with control tower


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## Dark-Destroyer

Knuckles said:


> Tragic. Landing gear problems, engine problems with a miscalculated decision to burn too much fuel. Missed approach followed by Go-around and after that it was just tragic. As someone who works on A320s, this saddens me a lot.



Just seems like the odds were against the pilots with landing gear and engine problems. Truly saddening and numbing May Allah grant them all Jannah


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## PakSword

El Sidd said:


> It does not look like a bird strike.
> 
> And that 8km is an arbitrary figure because of inter crossing of authorities having jurisdiction.



Maybe its not. 

But the bird strike incidents have increased in the past few years.

Regarding overlapping jurisdictions, they need to come up with something useful now to avoid incidents in future. It's not about this incident only, there's another disaster expected if corrective actions are not taken soon.

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## El Sidd

El Sidd said:


> I am desperately trying to contact the ones i know who live in this locality. It is highly densely populated area and i pray to Allah that we avert far greater numbers in this tragedy.



The street next to theirs. Head count is Alhumdulilah complete.

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## Raider 21

Dark-Destroyer said:


> Just seems like the odds were against the pilots with landing gear and engine problems. Truly saddening and numbing May Allah grant them all Jannah


I fear it maybe pilot error. Let's hope the investigation boards comes up with something conclusive.

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## niaz

I opened Geo News just now and heard the sad news. My heart goes out to all fellow Pakistanis who lost their loved ones so close to Eid. May Allah bless the souls of the departed and give fortitude to their loved ones to bear this loss.

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## AsianLion

El Sidd said:


> Who gave clearance to fly from Lahore? What was this plane's penultimate completed trip?



What I heard is PK 8303 brought passangers from Sharjah, UAE to Lahore last night and today while landing at Karachi it crashed down.

what is miraculous is survivors including Bank of Punjab President survived. Much better to crash land on buildings, the way it crashed, plane crash survivors are more likely.

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## El Sidd

PakSword said:


> Maybe its not.
> 
> But the bird strike incidents have increased in the past few years.
> 
> Regarding overlapping jurisdictions, they need to come up with something useful now to avoid incidents in future. It's not about this incident only, there's another disaster expected if corrective actions are not taken soon.



Planes are build to take on bird strikes. Its not a Condor bird. 

Let the investigation take place. Metal fatigue is at play here


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## Syed1.

PakSword said:


> Maybe its not.
> 
> But the bird strike incidents have increased in the past few years.
> 
> Regarding overlapping jurisdictions, they need to come up with something useful now to avoid incidents in future. It's not about this incident only, there's another disaster expected if corrective actions are not taken soon.


Quite unlikely that both engines suffered bird strike at the same time unless the plane flew through a swarm of birds. You never know with the lack of flights due to corona birds might have started venturing in the area.

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## StormBreaker

WebMaster said:


> Well, Model Colony is not a trash free area, opps whole Karachi isn't! There is no way to fix our people, we need to move the airport. I am sure Zardari's friends can assist in finding a proper location.


I heard they were planning a Bahria town Karachi Airport, But then they were rumours, Nothing more


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## drumstick

i deeply regret some insensitive people posting nasty messages about such a tragedy. Human life is precious everywhere, and i value each one of it. Does not matter which country it belong to. 
sorry guys this is not the time to celebrate but to mourn

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## PakSword

El Sidd said:


> Planes are build to take on bird strikes. Its not a Condor bird.
> 
> Let the investigation take place. Metal fatigue is at play here


Both Engines at the same time?

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## Jango

Knuckles said:


> Tragic. Landing gear problems, engine problems with a miscalculated decision to burn too much fuel. Missed approach followed by Go-around and after that it was just tragic. As someone who works on A320s, this saddens me a lot.



Are you sure there was a missed approach before the go-around as well? 

As you said, this some does seem to have an element of crew overload, due to multiple issues coming in at the same time.

Would be interesting to know the fuel levels of the aircraft at departure and at time of incident. They should have enough reserve for one go around. Correct me if I am wrong, but the A320 does not have the ability to dump fuel, correct?

Granted that the fuel burn will be much higher with MLG or gear doors deployed (I have heard the figure of a 30 min depleting to 10 min in such a configuration), but looking at the pics, the doors do not appear to be deployed. 

Bird strikes on both engines also do seem to be a probability...

Let's hope the investigation is done diligently.

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## PaklovesTurkiye

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1263841877977006080

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## El Sidd

PakSword said:


> Both Engines at the same time?


It will take an investigation not speculation to get to the bottom of this.


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## Bil

drumstick said:


> i deeply regret some insensitive people posting nasty messages about such a tragedy. Human life is precious everywhere, and i value each one of it. Does not matter which country it belong to.
> sorry guys this is not the time to celebrate but to mourn



Appreciate your comments, at least there is somebody from India who has to say something +ve on this tragic day. However, its also a bitter reality that many Indians do possess hatred and venom for Pakistani's.

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## AsianLion

PIA chief executive Air Vice Marshal Arshad Malik said the pilot had told traffic control that the plane was experiencing "technical difficulties".

Arshad Malik need to tell public of Pakistan, what had happend to Airbus A320.


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## Baghial

Jango said:


> Are you sure there was a missed approach before the go-around as well?
> 
> As you said, this some does seem to have an element of crew overload, due to multiple issues coming in at the same time.
> 
> Would be interesting to know the fuel levels of the aircraft at departure and at time of incident. They should have enough reserve for one go around. Correct me if I am wrong, but the A320 does not have the ability to dump fuel, correct?
> 
> Granted that the fuel burn will be much higher with MLG or gear doors deployed (I have heard the figure of a 30 min depleting to 10 min in such a configuration), but looking at the pics, the doors do not appear to be deployed.
> 
> Bird strikes on both engines also do seem to be a probability...
> 
> Let's hope the investigation is done diligently.


 go around is standerd procedure, even several attempts.

Bird strikes ? ...( a large bird flock )both engines, very very low %

pilot was on final approach for emergency landing, probably belly landing

mayday call is 99% crash landing, meaning gross failure , multiple systems, 

plane was on glide path..

glide path was just short of run way.......by 300/400 meters,



WHY DID BOTH ENGINES FAIL, DURING GLIDE PATH, IS THE MAIN MYSTERY


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## waz

Allah bless the souls of all those who departed us in this tragic event. So close to Eid and this. 
I shall pray intently for their families, Allah grant them patience and peace at this time. 
What a sad day for Pakistanis everywhere.
There should be a detailed and thorough investigation.

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## Safriz

PakSword said:


> Maybe its not.
> 
> But the bird strike incidents have increased in the past few years.
> 
> Regarding overlapping jurisdictions, they need to come up with something useful now to avoid incidents in future. It's not about this incident only, there's another disaster expected if corrective actions are not taken soon.


It's highly unlikely that both engines suffer birds strike at the same time.
Both engines seem damaged

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## Moonlight

Unexpected but a good news

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## BHarwana

AsianLion said:


> PIA chief executive Air Vice Marshal Arshad Malik said the pilot had told traffic control that the plane was experiencing "technical difficulties".
> 
> Arshad Malik need to tell public of Pakistan, what had happend to Airbus A320.


My friend how can he tell the public without an air crash investigation? It is an jet plan crash not a robbery. There are protocols.

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## Safriz

Knuckles said:


> I fear it maybe pilot error. Let's hope the investigation boards comes up with something conclusive.


The whole saga started due to landing gear failing to deploy.
How's that pilot error?

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## Aspen

I think the fact that it hit buildings means there is a higher chance of survival than if it hit straight into ground, water, or mountain.

Also helps that it was populated area so ambulance can immediately take survivors to hospital without delay

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## Moonlight

AsianLion said:


> PIA chief executive Air Vice Marshal Arshad Malik said the pilot had told traffic control that the plane was experiencing "technical difficulties".
> 
> *Arshad Malik need to tell public of Pakistan, what had happend to Airbus A320.*



we can wait...can’t we?

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## StormBreaker

Safriz said:


> The whole saga started due to landing gear failing to deploy.
> How's that pilot error?


Maybe he means partial pilot error.

And I believe he is referring to the missed opportunity of belly landing earlier, instead to take another round upon orders of ATC


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## Counter-Errorist

Aspen said:


> I think the fact that it hit buildings means there is a higher chance of survival than if it hit straight into ground, water, or mountain.
> 
> Also helps that it was populated area so ambulance can immediately take survivors to hospital without delay


Except for the population it hit.


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## AsianLion

Moonlight said:


> we can wait...can’t we?



Yes, just worried that last crash in 2016 and then 2012 in pindi and margalla, inquiry happenend but nothing ever came out to public by PIA or Government. Seriously concerned now.


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## Moonlight

AsianLion said:


> Yes, just worried that last crash in 2016 and then 2012 in pindi and margalla, inquiry happenend but nothing ever came out to public by PIA or Government. Seriously concerned now.



Is it 2016 and 2012?


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## Nein

May Allah have mercy on our Pakistani brothers and sisters that have passed away.

May Allah have mercy on their souls and grant them jannah.

Heartbreaking

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## Aspen

Counter-Errorist said:


> Except for the population it hit.



That is what I am afraid of


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## Turingsage

Mohsin A said:


> Could this be the video of the aircraft? 2nd video down.
> 
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...a-Karachi-Pakistan.html#v-6695471574892920100



One of the video shows the Landing gear in its landing configuration. So that cannot be the right footage


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## BHarwana

There are 4 confirmed survivors 1 discharged from hospital 3 under treatment. Hope for more good news. May Allah pak grant us more good news.

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## El Sidd

AsianLion said:


> What I heard is PK 8303 brought passangers from Sharjah, UAE to Lahore last night and today while landing at Karachi it crashed down.
> 
> what is miraculous is survivors including Bank of Punjab President survived. Much better to crash land on buildings, the way it crashed, plane crash survivors are more likely.



There is a 24 hour mandatory period after completion of every flight as per protocol. 

There is much to be investigated but to those who have lost their loved ones, it will be the least we can do to give them some sort of closure.

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## litman

BHarwana said:


> There are 4 confirmed survivors 1 discharged from hospital 3 under treatment. Hope for more good news. May Allah pak grant us more good news.


surviving and air crash is nothing short of a miracle.

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## Syed1.

Also correct me if I'm wrong bird strike can lead to engine fire but complete shutdown of the engine is unlikely, unless manually powered off


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## BHarwana

litman said:


> surviving and air crash is nothing short of a miracle.


Yes my friend it is a miracle.

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## Raider 21

Safriz said:


> The whole saga started due to landing gear failing to deploy.
> How's that pilot error?


Burning too much fuel, not enough for diversion. Missing the approach in the first place despite on ILS. Multiple variables, one outcome. Could even be lapses in training or a scenario never experienced before. Investigation hopefully will bring closure to the lost people's loved ones.

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## Syed1.

AsianLion said:


> 2012: Passenger plane with 116 on board crashes near Rawalapindi. Bhoja Air.
> 
> 2016: Junaid Jamshed wala small jet crash.
> 
> And 2010: Airblue crashed in Margalla, under suspicious circumstances thought to be shot by Pak Army Anti-Aircraft guns.
> 
> All inquiries need to be made public !!!!


Are you stupid or what? Why spreading fake news in this desperate time? The margalla jet crashed because of severe fog and pilot didn't see the top of the hills and only when it was too late did he react

Your stupidity should be grounds for a thread ban @BHarwana

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## waz

Ghareeb_Da_Baal said:


> View attachment 634799



These low life ba$tards don't know who their fathers are. No need to put them up here. I hope they all die horrid deaths. 
To be fair many Indian posters have put their condolences here, thank you to them all.

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## Raider 21

Syed1. said:


> Also correct me if I'm wrong bird strike can lead to engine fire but complete shutdown of the engine is unlikely, unless manually powered off


Deploying SQUIB would help extinguish the fire. Shutting it down depends on the extent of what the ECAM Warnings would display


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## Moonlight

AsianLion said:


> 2012: Passenger plane with 116 on board crashes near Rawalapindi. Bhoja Air.
> 
> 2016: Junaid Jamshed wala small jet crash.
> 
> And 2010: Airblue crashed in Margalla, under suspicious circumstances thought to be shot by Pak Army Anti-Aircraft guns.
> 
> All inquiries need to be made public !!!!



You seriously have the audacity to bring what happened in past on to prove your point? That’s exactly what I’m trying to tell you, that was a different time period, give it sometimes & wait for the official reports.

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## BHarwana

Syed1. said:


> Also correct me if I'm wrong bird strike can lead to engine fire but complete shutdown of the engine is unlikely, unless manually powered off


It is pointless to discuss this at the moment we simply don't know what happened but the possibility of bird strike is very less here as a cause for both engines to fail.

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## AsianLion

Moonlight said:


> You seriously have the audacity to bring what happened in past on to prove your point? That’s exactly what I’m trying to tell you, that was a different time period, give it sometimes & wait for the official reports.




Nothings changed in past 10 years is my point here. why do u hope this time be any different?


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## Syed1.

AsianLion said:


> What the hell idiot. I am not spreading fake news idiot. Asking about inquiries to be made public.


You are saying Margalla jet was due to anti air fire. Anyways my last reply to you considering what this thread is about. I'll tag mods and they should take whatever action is necessary @BHarwana @Moonlight

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## maverick1977

AsianLion said:


> 2012: Passenger plane with 116 on board crashes near Rawalapindi. Bhoja Air.
> 
> 2016: Junaid Jamshed wala small jet crash.
> 
> And 2010: Airblue crashed in Margalla, under suspicious circumstances thought to be shot by Pak Army Anti-Aircraft guns.
> 
> All inquiries need to be made public !!!!



first time i am hearing that margralla plane was shit by army.. what heresy u speak of..


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## Vortex

PanzerKiel said:


> Army



All my payers for them, their families and their friends. May Allah give sabr and strength to all.

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## Al-zakir

Inna lillahi wa inna ilayhi rajioon. I'm saddened by hear this news.


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## BHarwana

AsianLion said:


> What the hell idiot. I am not spreading fake news idiot. Asking about inquiries to be made public.


My friend you are asking about inquiry in the middle of a rescue operation. Let us save people first and then you can come forward the agenda you want. Can you give us 24 hours to save human life if that is possible?

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## AsianLion

Syed1. said:


> You are saying Margalla jet was due to anti air fire. Anyways my last reply to you considering what this thread is about. I'll tag mods and they should take whatever action is necessary @BHarwana @Moonlight



You can beg mods here. But you are first class idiot making claim 2 bird strikes on the PK8303 left and right engines. Totally nonsense claim.

Tell you what my uncle namely Afzal who serviced for 40 years in PiA and retired now, this pilot on PK 8303 was his student.


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## Aspen

So what are the possible theories for what caused it so far?

Factors:

1. Landing gear
2. Fuel ran out
3. Belly landing
4. Several attempts to land
5. Black marks on bottom of engine
6. Dual engine failure
7. Hydraulic problems


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## Turingsage

Counter-Errorist said:


> This might be why the engines failed.
> 
> Landing gear issue. Pilot attempts belly landing. Aborts. While doing a go around for next attempt, engines give out from damage.



Absolutely NOT . Any attempted belly landing that even slightly scraped the engine cowlings would lead to an immediate catastrophic crash . There would be no recovery from such a incident.

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## PakSword

Safriz said:


> It's highly unlikely that both engines suffer birds strike at the same time.
> Both engines seem damaged


When that hero pilot ditched the plane in Hudson River, both engines failed due to bird strike. 

See I am not saying it's definite, but it's a possibility.



Aspen said:


> So what are the possible theories for what caused it so far?
> 
> Factors:
> 
> 1. Landing gear
> 2. Fuel ran out
> 3. Belly landing
> 4. Several attempts to land
> 5. Black marks on bottom of engine


For the belly landing, pilot has to ensure that the fuel is very low so that the plane doesn't explode upon touching the ground. There's a possibility that the pilot completely emptied the tanks.

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## Raider 21

Turingsage said:


> Absolutely NOT . Any attempted belly landing that even slightly scraped the engine cowlings would lead to an immediate catastrophic crash . There would be no recovery from such a incident.


Depends. On an approach consistent with the glide path and provided all FCCs are functional in NORMAL mode, I'd say other than engine damage which could be reduced with the usage of pushing the ENG 1 and 2 FIRE pushbuttons, the aircraft may have belly landed on the runway. Pilots train for scenarios like this.

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## Path-Finder

انا لله وانا اليه راجعون

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## Dil_Pakistan

RIP 

_Inna lillahi wa inna ilayhi_ raji'un

Condolences are coming from around the world:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1263798979168436224

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1263828732273459200

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1263820001645072386

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1263842837570912256

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1263837491183980544

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## Malik Shani

PakSword said:


> When that hero pilot ditched the plane in Hudson River, both engines failed due to bird strike.
> 
> See I am not saying it's definite, but it's a possibility.



Two different scenarios , one was taking off and the other landing. That plane had altitude and was lucky enough to find river nearby. This plane was at very low altitude/speed due to landing approach so both engine failure resulted in stalling.


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## PakSword

Malik Shani said:


> Two different scenarios , one was taking off and the other landing. That plane had altitude and was lucky enough to find river nearby. This plane was at very low altitude/speed due to landing approach so both engine failure resulted in stalling.


I was merely stating the fact that both engines can be hit at the same time, but anyway, this might be one of the many possible reasons.

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## Aspen

So what happened first?

1. Dual Engine failure happened first
2. Landing gear and aborted belly landing

I think we get rule out fuel running out because otherwise plane would not have made to all the way from LHE to KHI if it ran out of fuel

Somebody said there is no damage to engine blades which means both engines were not running when plane crashed.

So something caused both engines to shut down in air before plane crashed but fuel didn't run out? What the hell could it be?


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## PanzerKiel

Some update ...
Its jam-packed...Jinnah Hospital and CMH......there are 77 bodies which are un-identified....

Two survivors came in CMH...one was BOP Chairman who has been discharged, other was a resident on ground who got some splinters.....

Possible there are maybe 5-6 more survivors who have been taken to other hospitals.

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## Turingsage

El Sidd said:


> It does not look like a bird strike.
> 
> And that 8km is an arbitrary figure because of inter crossing of authorities having jurisdiction.



You are viewing this image in 2d. If you look at the size of the bird you can see the bird is perhaps hundreds of meters away from the aircraft. If you thought the bird was near the aircraft then it would have to be half the length of that very large engine or the height of the planes doorway.


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## xeuss

PakSword said:


> For the belly landing, pilot has to ensure that the fuel is very low so that the plane doesn't explode upon touching the ground. There's a possibility that the pilot completely emptied the tanks.



There are usually multiple factors that lead to air crashes. This one seems to be no exception. From the landing gear to engine flameout to perhaps miscalculation of fuel remaining.

http://avherald.com/h?article=4d7a6e9a&opt=0

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## Techy Hassan

Once again army is rescuing.

This will keep on happening until justice is provided to each and every person of this nation.

other wise this mob will eatup army too.

no one of these rulers allows us to become a proud nation. 

these janasheens of yazid will keep on farting on chairs every where in each and every office

totally helpless

have to accept it as will of God.

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## Aspen

xeuss said:


> There are usually multiple factors that lead to air crashes. This one seems to be no exception. From the landing gear to engine flameout to perhaps miscalculation of fuel remaining.



Then why did video show plane's landing gear was down in correct position? 

Also, how could plane run out of fuel if this was only second landing attempt?


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## xeuss

Aspen said:


> Then why did video show plane's landing gear was down in correct position?
> 
> Also, how could plane run out of fuel if this was only second landing attempt?



Landing gear down, and landing gear down and locked are two different things.

Fuel remaining is calculated with gear up. If the go around was made with gear down, then that fuel burn could be 3 times more.

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## Baghial

Aspen said:


> So what are the possible theories for what caused it so far?
> 
> Factors:
> 
> 1. Landing gear
> 2. Fuel ran out
> 3. Belly landing
> 4. Several attempts to land
> 5. Black marks on bottom of engine
> 6. Dual engine failure
> 7. Hydraulic problems



...engine failure, low altitude, maybe altimeter malfunction.....crashed in houses before reaching runway, plane was already on glide path.........


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## Turingsage

Del said:


> However, its also a bitter reality that many Indians do possess hatred and venom for Pakistani's.



Lets not get too carried away. Many here including some moderators have rejoiced at the death of Indians. 
There are some Brits who would secretly smile at such news of such tragedies.
The bitter reality is that humans everywhere sometimes take delight in tragedies befalling those they consider to be their enemies. That includes Pakistanis

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## BHarwana

PanzerKiel said:


> Some update ...
> Its jam-packed...Jinnah Hospital and CMH......there are 77 bodies which are un-identified....
> 
> Two survivors came in CMH...one was BOP Chairman who has been discharged, other was a resident on ground who got some splinters.....
> 
> Possible there are maybe 5-6 more survivors who have been taken to other hospitals.


Sir there are 4 confirm survivors.1 discharged from hospital and 3 still under treatment.
there are 35 dead from the plane crash at Jinnah hospital of which 5 have been identified.
All those who got injured on ground and were brought to Jinnah hospital have survived.

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## Enigma SIG

Condolences to everyone who lost their loved ones. Seems it was until a few more moments until the aircraft would've reached the runway. However watching the video where there's a passenger from another aircraft coming into the airport show the crash site (down on final) shows the ill-fated aircraft probably veered left of the path to the runway. How long does an aircraft like the A320 have before running out of power to control flight surfaces? It seems as there was a hydraulic failure but no indication if it did affect flight control surfaces too.


----------



## SQ8

thunderr said:


> They should retire these coffins.My relative came frm dxb few days back look at the condition of the seats,panels.Its the same 320.Besharam begharat chor salay..jis ko vote do hrmza***a nikalta ha.Ask those who lost their brothers sisters, bachay etc etc.
> View attachment 634848
> View attachment 634849


You should fly some US airlines - then this blanket dismissal(while not completely without merit) would be less of a rant.

And the thieves are Pakistanis.. and the Pakistanis are thieves. They can join any profession with their culturally exposed tendency for corruption intact or they can rise above it; that choice is a personal one for each Pakistan and no messiah will help.

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## PanzerKiel

BHarwana said:


> Sir there are 4 confirm survivors.1 discharged from hospital and 3 still under treatment.
> there are 35 dead from the plane crash at Jinnah hospital of which 5 have been identified.
> All those who got injured on ground and were brought to Jinnah hospital have survived.



Actually most of the army officers are very well known and close to me, thats why am running after them.....some of the injured have been shifted to PNS Shifa as well.

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## BHarwana

PanzerKiel said:


> Actually most of the army officers are very well known and close to me, thats why am running after them.....some of the injured have been shifted to PNS Shifa as well.


Sir I added to your info. I only had info about Jinnah hospital. I never disregarded yours. 
This info is only about Jinnah hospital. 35 dead 5 identified rest will undergo DNA. No plan crash survivors at Jinnah hospital. 
All people who got injured on ground and were brought to Jinnah hospital have survived with minor injuries. 

This info is from other hospitals. 
4 survived of which one discharged from hospitals and 3 under treatment. These are from plan crash. 

This is the info I have. I was adding to your info.

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## PanzerKiel

BHarwana said:


> Sir I added to your info. I only had info about Jinnah hospital. I never disregarded yours.
> This info is only about Jinnah hospital. 35 dead 5 identified rest will undergo DNA. No plan crash survivors at Jinnah hospital.
> All people who got injured on ground and were brought to Jinnah hospital have survived with minor injuries.
> 
> This info is from other hospitals.
> 4 survived of which one discharged from hospitals and 3 under treatment. These are from plan crash.
> 
> This is the info I have. I was adding to your info.



Bhai dont take me wrong either. I wasnt negating your info. Just adding...!

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## BHarwana

PanzerKiel said:


> Bhai dont take me wrong either. I wasnt negating your info. Just adding...!


My apologies for the confusion.

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## Baghial



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## PanzerKiel

BHarwana said:


> My apologies for the confusion.



Not at all bhai.

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## Turingsage

People should really wait for expert and considered evaluation of the incident from those with access to ALL the information. 
At the moment people are looking at an elephant through a keyhole. One sees a trunk and says an elephant is a snake. Another sees the tusks and concludes its a unicorn. etc etc etc

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## Lincoln

idk if true but from a friend's timeline, allah maaf karai :/

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## StormBreaker

Kia zindagi hai ye,
Kia Auqat hai is dunya mein Insan ki,

Har aziat se ye yad aata hai ke dunya haqeeqat nahi hai,

Najanay aur kitne gham likhen hain Upar walay ne Seerat mein



May Allah Grant peace and sabr to the families of deceased people and bring the corrupts to rot on street, Those who are even by any small chance responsible indirectly for all this.



Alternatiiv said:


> View attachment 634852
> 
> 
> idk if true but from a friend's timeline, allah maaf karai :/


Yehi haqeeqat hai is qaum ki,
Agar Quran aur Allah ke Akhri Nabi Muhammad SA, is daur mein atay bajaye iske ke 560AD mein,

To Quran mein Firon ki jaga yaqeenan koi na koi is qaum ka hi hota...

Corruption to the core


----------



## Malik Shani

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1263860578541432838
CCTV shows landing gear extended. Seems like landing gear issue was resolved during go around.

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## El Sidd

Alternatiiv said:


> View attachment 634852
> 
> 
> idk if true but from a friend's timeline, allah maaf karai :/



at the crash site or at the hospitals?

community is very close knitted there and is one of the most peaceful neighbourhood in terms of street crimes.



StormBreaker said:


> Kia zindagi hai ye,
> Kia Auqat hai is dunya mein Insan ki,
> 
> Har aziat se ye yad aata hai ke dunya haqeeqat nahi hai,
> 
> Najanay aur kitne gham likhen hain Upar walay ne Seerat mein
> 
> 
> 
> May Allah Grant peace and sabr to the families of deceased people and bring the corrupts to rot on street, Those who are even by any small chance responsible indirectly for all this.
> 
> 
> Yehi haqeeqat hai is qaum ki,
> Agar Quran aur Allah ke Akhri Nabi Muhammad SA, is daur mein atay bajaye iske ke 560AD mein,
> 
> To Quran mein Firon ki jaga yaqeenan koi na koi is qaum ka hi hota...
> 
> Corruption to the core



sabar rakh
your first inclination was they poor they encroached lands.

airport pe jitna dhandha hota hai usse 100 gunah saaf paperwork hai in colony ka.

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## StormBreaker

El Sidd said:


> at the crash site or at the hospitals?
> 
> community is very close knitted there and is one of the most peaceful neighbourhood in terms of street crimes.
> 
> 
> 
> sabar rakh
> your first inclination was they poor they encroached lands.
> 
> airport pe jitna dhandha hota hai usse 100 gunah saaf paperwork hai in colony ka.


When I earlier said encroached, I thought it was moinabad near model colony but it is not.


----------



## Bil

Turingsage said:


> Lets not get too carried away. Many here including some moderators have rejoiced at the death of Indians.
> There are some Brits who would secretly smile at such news of such tragedies.
> The bitter reality is that humans everywhere sometimes take delight in tragedies befalling those they consider to be their enemies. That includes Pakistanis



Maybe you are right, I will give you benefit of doubt, however, so far on PDF, I have seen it coming from Indians.


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## StormBreaker

@Mangus Ortus Novem ?

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## Mumm-Ra

Heartbroken..May Allah give solace to the families of the victims


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## Metal 0-1

PakSword said:


> If you look at the above photo, you can see black kite bird above the plane. And what I have seen all my life living in Karachi, black kites don't come in single digits.
> 
> Model colony (just like any other area of Karachi) has been converted into a trash dump. CAA has the responsibility to maintain the area of 8 km radius around the airport, and it does. But like you said, what to do about the people?



Well those trails were probably not because they were on fire. It’s a CFM56-5B engine, and these engines don’t have air-oil breather. So hot air-oil fumes from the vent pipe at the tail is common in CFM engines, especially after they were shut down.

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## khail007

Inna-Lillah-i-wa-inna-alaihi-rajeoon

Sad news ALLAH SWT bless the departed souls.
I have just seen the last moments of appoach of aircraft towards the runway - at the end it seems the aircraft had no lift at all and just sit on that residential area.

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## Aspen

Malik Shani said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1263860578541432838
> CCTV shows landing gear extended. Seems like landing gear issue was resolved during go around.



That is a big surprise if landing gear was down


----------



## Ali_Baba

Malik Shani said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1263860578541432838
> CCTV shows landing gear extended. Seems like landing gear issue was resolved during go around.



Looks like the pilot managed to fix the landing gear issue and then ran into another issue with regards to speed/lift which as many have said was engine related.

The voice recordings clearing shows that pilot and crew were professional to the end. Respect, and RIP.

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## StormBreaker

Aspen said:


> That is a big surprise if landing gear was down


A video that was captured via some nearby house roof CCTV, Shows how the plane’s trajectory changes, That is, It was stalled completely, Losing altitude abnormally.

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## Counter-Errorist

Malik Shani said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1263860578541432838
> CCTV shows landing gear extended. Seems like landing gear issue was resolved during go around.


@PakSword Explosion indicates fuel wasn't the issue, right?

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## YeBeWarned

Sad news, 2020 is turning out to be very tough year ...
May Allah forgive their sins and give quick recovery for those who are injured and also my respect and praise for the rescue workers .

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## StormBreaker

Counter-Errorist said:


> @PakSword Explosion indicates fuel wasn't the issue, right?


Not necessarily,
The Smoke isn’t as big as it should be, Indicating that fuel was probably emptied.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Someone or groups within PIA is playing dirty I suspect.

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## Syed1.

Every 4-5 years we have a crash in Pakistan. Heads need to roll, but sadly just like last time nothing much is going to change.

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## bsruzm

Inna lillahi wa inallah-e-raji'oon. My condolences to the relatives...

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## BHarwana

All inspection of the jet were complete by PIA and pilot medical report was also good.
CEO PIA.

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## Green Arrow



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## Mohsin A

Malik Shani said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1263860578541432838
> CCTV shows landing gear extended. Seems like landing gear issue was resolved during go around.



Just as I thought and stated previously. The aircraft stalled as shown in this clip.

So from the ATC comms I deduce the following and this is my opinion ONLY!

1. Pilot experience difficulty. But thought he overcame the issue and stated in ATC comms "We are comfortable now, we can make it Inshallah".
2. Established on ILS at 3000 for runway 25L.
3. ATC clears pilot to land on 25L.
4. Pilot says "Roger Pakistan 8303". There is a *ALARM SOUNDING* in the background!!!
5. Pilot then says "Going around" followed by "We would like to come again for ILS 25L".
6. ATC says "Turn *LEFT* heading 110 *CLIMB* to 3000". (Answers why the aircraft crashed just left of the runway)
7. Pilot asks for clarification "Left heading?". ATC confirms. Pilot acknowledges.
8. Pilot asks for height maintenance at 2000 whilst heading left towards the populated area. ATC permits and says maintain 2000. The pilot is 1800 feet at this point (Plane is losing altitude!)
9. Pilot says "Sir we are trying to maintain 2000". Shortly after Pilot says we have lost engines.
10. ATC asks can you confirm you are carrying out belly landing? Then clears Pilot to land on 25L
11. MAYDAY MAYDAY MAYDAY calls the pilot.
12. ATC states roger both runways available.
13. Pakistan 8303 unfortunately clashes.

Apart from the loss of thrust, points 5, 6 & 7 above are the scenario changing events. Surely when going around the SOP is to maintain heading towards the runway just in case and not head into a populated area?
With the loss of engines, the turn and the attempt to climb lost precious energy the aircraft could have used to glide to and belly land on 25L.

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## Techy Hassan

Good press conference by PIA chief. Again some one borrowed from army.

Till when Pakistani nation will be kept ignorant. Even the poor send their children to school. Then who does not give them education?

Who does not give them justice?

Its combined corrupt Rulers. Judges. Police. every one corrupt. 

Till the day each and every one of this nation is given justice one a one minute notice this will keep on happening.

The will of God.

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## Safriz

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1263873912900857856

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## PanzerKiel

Dil_Pakistan said:


> I hope it is fine sharing this, since it's a piece of good news, but if for confidentiality or other reasons it shouldn't be then kindly inform, i will edit my comment and remove. btw this seems legitimate:
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1263864197030567936



Someone who just to PNS Shifa info me that Shaheer is not there.

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## Dil_Pakistan

PanzerKiel said:


> Someone who just to PNS Shifa info me that Shaheer is not there.



I shall be removing this then. But is there hope? You mean to say he's not in PNS Shifa? In any case apologies for this. i can understand it would be difficult time. Hence was in double mind sharing in first case.


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## PanzerKiel

Dil_Pakistan said:


> I shall be removing this then. But is there hope? You mean to say he's not in PNS Shifa. In any case apologies for this. i can understand it would be difficult time. Hence was in double mind sharing in first case.



Bhai no problem....clearing each other's doubts is also a noble thing. No problems.
I do pray that Shaheer makes it through.....Balach's body was just identified...only through his dog-tags.

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## Srinivas

Om Shanti, I wish speedy recovery to the survivors and strength to their loved ones!

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## Enigma SIG

Mohsin A said:


> Just as I thought and stated previously. The aircraft stalled as shown in this clip.
> 
> So from the ATC comms I deduce the following and this is my opinion ONLY!
> 
> 1. Pilot experience difficulty. But thought he overcame the issue and stated in ATC comms "We are comfortable now, we can make it Inshallah".
> 2. Established on ILS at 3000 for runway 25L.
> 3. ATC clears pilot to land on 25L.
> 4. Pilot says "Roger Pakistan 8303". There is a *ALARM SOUNDING* in the background!!!
> 5. Pilot then says "Going around" followed by "We would like to come again for ILS 25L".
> 6. ATC says "Turn *LEFT* heading 110 *CLIMB* to 3000". (Answers why the aircraft crashed just left of the runway)
> 7. Pilot asks for clarification "Left heading?". ATC confirms. Pilot acknowledges.
> 8. Pilot asks for height maintenance at 2000 whilst heading left towards the populated area. ATC permits and says maintain 2000. The pilot is 1800 feet at this point (Plane is losing altitude!)
> 9. Pilot says "Sir we are trying to maintain 2000". Shortly after Pilot says we have lost engines.
> 10. ATC asks can you confirm you are carrying out belly landing? Then clears Pilot to land on 25L
> 11. MAYDAY MAYDAY MAYDAY calls the pilot.
> 12. ATC states roger both runways available.
> 13. Pakistan 8303 unfortunately clashes.
> 
> Apart from the loss of thrust, points 5, 6 & 7 above are the scenario changing events. *Surely when going around the SOP is to maintain heading towards the runway just in case and not head into a populated area?*
> With the loss of engines, the turn and the attempt to climb lost precious energy the aircraft could have used to glide to and belly land on 25L.


Any pilots who are on the forum who regularly fly into Karachi can better tell us what procedure is from the charts. Given that ATC gave out those instructions it is safe to assume it was accepted SOP.


----------



## Baghial

life and death, just short of few meters.








__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1263845567836368896

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## kris

What is really surprising is presence of civilian construction near airport landing, that too an international airport.....
Unforgivable mistake by administration

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## Enigma SIG

Baghial said:


> life and death, just short of few meters.



Pretty tragic. Pilot probably did his best in light of the situation with stuff failing all around him.

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## Green Arrow

7 survived uptill now.

1. Ammar 
2. Ansar Naqvi (24 News Director)
3. CEO BOP (Masud)
4. Zara Abid (Model)
5. Lt. Hamza Yousuf (Pakistan Army)
6. Rana Ansar (Ex MPA MQM, Wife of Ansar Naqvi)
7. Muhammad Zubair

This is confirm

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## maverick1977

Safriz said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1263873912900857856


angle of attack too high, stall..


----------



## El Sidd

Baghial said:


> life and death, just short of few meters.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1263845567836368896



Friday prayers finished shortly before the plane hit the ground otherwise death toll would be much bigger.

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## Sinnerman108

maverick1977 said:


> angle of attack too high, stall..



upon loss of power pilot trying beyond hope,

it was either nose up or even more loss on ground


----------



## Iltutmish

إِنَّا لِلَّٰهِ وَإِنَّا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعُونَ​
May Allah grant them paradise in the last days of this blessed month and give patience to their loved once :-(

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## Moonlight

PanzerKiel said:


> Someone who just to PNS Shifa info me that Shaheer is not there.



well I read somewhere one of his friend cleared the confusion that he wasn’t on board. His plan was changed to traveling by train.

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## Tom_Cruise

Sinnerman108 said:


> upon loss of power pilot trying beyond hope,
> 
> it was either nose up or even more loss on ground




Thats it. He tried to get it over to the airport perimeter right to end with all systems pretty much failed (ram air turbine deployed).

Heroic, professional and calm right to the end. Heartbreaking and devastating all round.

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## PanzerKiel

Moonlight said:


> well I read somewhere one of his friend cleared the confusion that he wasn’t on board. His plan was changed to traveling by train.



Actually that message was regarding 2/Lt Hamza Yusuf....but later on it was negated. He made a video call to one of his buddies from inside the plane. So.....

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## Moonlight

PanzerKiel said:


> Actually that message was regarding 2/Lt Hamza Yusuf....but later on it was negated. He made a video call to one of his buddies from inside the plane. So.....



Prayers...

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## Safriz



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## Moonlight

They deserve a lot of appreciation.

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## PakSword

Moonlight said:


> They deserve a lot of appreciation.
> View attachment 634869
> View attachment 634870


Faisal Edhi?

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## Moonlight

PakSword said:


> Faisal Edhi?



Yes.

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## Pakistani Fighter

PanzerKiel said:


> Someone who just to PNS Shifa info me that Shaheer is not there.


Check Jinnah. People saying he is injured

@PanzerKiel do you have his any picture?

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## PanzerKiel

Moonlight said:


> Prayers...



Shaheer has somehow disappeared, am looking for him ......no cfm regarding his status.....


Pakistani Fighter said:


> Check Jinnah. People saying he is injured
> 
> @PanzerKiel do you have his any picture?









He's the right one.

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## Taimoor Khan

Spoke to my father who served in PIA as a Boeing engineer for 40 odd years, also my cousin who also served in PIA engineering and now very senior GE, this unfortunate plane had a history of LEFT engine issues and it was flagged many times by the technicians. It seems there was landing gear issue on initial approach and pilot had to abort the landing which mean full throttle climb out at 500 feet. There was a step climb till 3000 feet. It's a normal proceed to take the aircraft around 5k 6k feet for manual checks and try manual landing gear deployment under gravity. There might not have been any issue at all and it could be just a false electrical reading about landing gear issue. and in this stage the left engine might have given up. 

Now at this stage, it's not confirmed , it seems the pilot may have mistakenly pulled the right engine fire handle. Which lead to both engine going offline and at that altitude it is impossible to restart the engine. RAT deployment is clear sign that both engines were offline.

This is the same situation which happened in ATR crash unfortunately.

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## Pakistani Fighter

PanzerKiel said:


> Shaheer has somehow disappeared, am looking for him ......no cfm regarding his status.....
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 634872
> 
> 
> He's the right one.


I think he is my batch mate(I dont know him) but people of my batch were talking about him. One of them told about Jinnah

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## Taimoor Khan

BHarwana said:


> All inspection of the jet were complete by PIA and pilot medical report was also good.
> CEO PIA.



Not correct. Left engine had history of problems


----------



## Moonlight

PanzerKiel said:


> Shaheer has somehow disappeared, am looking for him ......no cfm regarding his status.....


I don’t know where people are coming up with this but I just read another tweet confirming Shaheer among the survivors.


----------



## Lincoln

Malik Shani said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1263860578541432838
> CCTV shows landing gear extended. Seems like landing gear issue was resolved during go around.



in an audio released, it can be heard, the pilot says that both the plane's engines are out before calling mayday.



El Sidd said:


> at the crash site or at the hospitals?
> 
> community is very close knitted there and is one of the most peaceful neighbourhood in terms of street crimes.
> 
> 
> 
> sabar rakh
> your first inclination was they poor they encroached lands.
> 
> airport pe jitna dhandha hota hai usse 100 gunah saaf paperwork hai in colony ka.



i dont know


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## PanzerKiel

Moonlight said:


> I don’t know where people are coming up with this but I just read another tweet confirming Shaheer among the survivors.



I've told several of my mates to let the night pass. Clarity on survivors will be more clear by morning.

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## Safriz

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1263788310822105088


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## El Sidd

Alternatiiv said:


> i dont know



It is not that bad. Some people just want to paint it as such for whateves


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## Moonlight

This picture with these names are going viral who were in perished flight

——

Maj Shehryar BM of 15 HMB Bde (111 L/C, 15L) along with family as well, in That Airbus
- 2/Lt Hamza Yousaf 141 l/c
- Lt Shaheer 137 l/c
- Lt Balach 136 L/C








PanzerKiel said:


> I've told several of my mates to let the night pass. Clarity on survivors will be more clear by morning.



Exactly. Just watched the small clip of Faisal Edhi and he says, this operation will take couple of days to complete. Unfortunately, local people are affected too because of the fire.

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## Tomcats

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1263897242253000705

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## PanzerKiel

Moonlight said:


> This picture with these names are going viral who were in perished flight
> 
> ——
> 
> Maj Shehryar BM of 15 HMB Bde (111 L/C, 15L) along with family as well, in That Airbus
> - 2/Lt Hamza Yousaf 141 l/c
> - Lt Shaheer 137 l/c
> - Lt Balach 136 L/C
> 
> View attachment 634874
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly. Just watched the small clip of Faisal Edhi and he says, this operation will take couple of days to complete. Unfortunately, local people are affected too because of the fire.



Yep....
just for record, Balach is also from 137.

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## iLION12345_1

According to my father (he’s a senior officer in the army) there were 5 armed forces personnel aboard the plane in total...


Inna lillahi wa inna illihi Rajioon.
PS can we please stop blaming “the year” or “2020”? It is clearly forbidden in our religion to blame a certain era or time for hardships yet we continue to do it like fools. And then we ask what we’re doing wrong. The time for everyone is written, it has nothing to do with a year or an era.

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## Moonlight

Another sad news

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## PanzerKiel

Moonlight said:


> Another sad news
> 
> View attachment 634876



Am also after him, he happens to be related to my cousin....he isnt traceable as well.

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## Moonlight

PanzerKiel said:


> Am also after him, he happens to be related to my cousin....he isnt traceable as well.



I am so sorry you are going through a lot. All we can do is, pray.

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## PanzerKiel

Moonlight said:


> I am so sorry you are going through a lot. All we can do is, pray.



Exactly, as i said before, i've lost some ppl who were close to me.

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## Taimoor Khan

kris said:


> What is really surprising is presence of civilian construction near airport landing, that too an international airport.....
> Unforgivable mistake by administration



Surprising? Have you stepped outside your rat hole called India? Ever landed at Heathrow airport?

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## Pakistani Fighter

Issam said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1263897242253000705


Not surprised. That 'liberal' guy always share fake news to defame Pakistan



PanzerKiel said:


> Exactly, as i said before, i've lost some ppl who were close to me.


Plz do Check Jinnah Hospital too

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## Nilgiri

PanzerKiel said:


> Exactly, as i said before, i've lost some ppl who were close to me.



I just got here to this terrible news. I am so very sorry my friend. My deepest condolences to you and all that have lost near and dear in this tragedy...and also to the country at large. 

Rest in peace.

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## Myth_buster_1

such a sad incident.


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## PakSword

OK guys, I have lost a few distant relatives in this crash. Husband, wife and 2 children. 

Inna lillah e wa inna ilaihe raji'un.

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## koolio

PanzerKiel said:


> Exactly, as i said before, i've lost some ppl who were close to me.



Really sorry to hear about that.



PakSword said:


> OK guys, I have lost a few distant relatives in this crash. Husband, wife and 2 children.
> 
> Inna lillah e wa inna ilaihe raji'un.



Inna lillahi wa inna ilayhi raji'un*, *Brother sorry to hear about.

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## El Sidd

PakSword said:


> OK guys, I have lost a few distant relatives in this crash. Husband, wife and 2 children.
> 
> Inna lillah e wa inna ilaihe raji'un.



Some people on the ground suffered from cardiac arrest resulting from the loud bang

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## Blacklight

PakSword said:


> OK guys, I have lost a few distant relatives in this crash. Husband, wife and 2 children.
> 
> Inna lillah e wa inna ilaihe raji'un.



You @PanzerKiel and anyone else who lost someone in this tragedy. May Allah give you the strength and perseverance to carry on. 

Our hearts and prayers are with you.

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## PakSword

El Sidd said:


> Some people on the ground suffered from cardiac arrest resulting from the loud bang


But PIA CEO says there's no report of any casualty on the ground?


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## ghazi52

Lt Balach,
Lt Shaheer, 
Lt Yousaf, 
Major Shehryar 
Squadron Leader Zain who left us in this tragic incident of PIA Plane Crash.

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## El Sidd

PakSword said:


> But PIA CEO says there's no report of any casualty on the ground?



It would be only be a miracle if that is true. I doubt that and its too early to say that


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## Imran Khan

this whole family was in the ill fated plane as per social media

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## PaklovesTurkiye

PakSword said:


> OK guys, I have lost a few distant relatives in this crash. Husband, wife and 2 children.
> 
> Inna lillah e wa inna ilaihe raji'un.



@PanzerKiel 

Both of you....

We share your pain....You are NOT alone in this.

Those Shaheed have gone straight to heaven....They are now in better world.

I'll do dua for all of these innocents who died in this crash.

May their relatives and friends find ever lasting peace and courage in their hearts. Ameen

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## Zulfiqar

RT from the plane.






RIP

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## IceCold

PakSword said:


> OK guys, I have lost a few distant relatives in this crash. Husband, wife and 2 children.
> 
> Inna lillah e wa inna ilaihe raji'un.





PanzerKiel said:


> Exactly, as i said before, i've lost some ppl who were close to me.



Very sorry to hear about your loses. Allah Pak un ki magfarat farmai or un ki families ko app ko sabar atta farmai. Ameen!

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## TOPGUN

PakSword said:


> OK guys, I have lost a few distant relatives in this crash. Husband, wife and 2 children.
> 
> Inna lillah e wa inna ilaihe raji'un.



Very sorry to hear my brother may ALLAH grant your distant relatives Jannat and ease your and your families pain AMEEN !!

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## Counter-Errorist

PakSword said:


> But PIA CEO says there's no report of any casualty on the ground


If you look at the damage, that would be a miracle.

And I'm very sorry about your loss. My prayers are with you and the shaheed. May Allah forgive their sins.

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## TOPGUN

Zulfiqar said:


> RT from the plane.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RIP



ALLAH maf karha very sad indeed

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## Arsalan

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1263819637285883904

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## HAIDER

PakSword said:


> OK guys, I have lost a few distant relatives in this crash. Husband, wife and 2 children.
> 
> Inna lillah e wa inna ilaihe raji'un.


Very sad, Inna lillah e wa inna ilaihe raji'un



Arsalan said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1263819637285883904


Bhai kyun ya lanti tweet lagata hoo.... lanti basharam quam haa...

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## Hulk

PanzerKiel said:


> It is reported that the pilot of the aircraft Capt Sajjad Gull was asked to make a low pass in front of ATC to check his gears. In the process of going around the aircraft has crashed.


Heard his calm call to ATC just before the Crash. Very much in control. RIP. Sad news.

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## HAIDER

Majority of PIA planse pass expiry date long time ago. Plane engine been checked 3 time before departure. Checking engine 3 time is unusual, not normal practice. 
Sadly, these people came to Karachi to celebrate eid after months of lockdown ....what a pain for waiting families.

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## Falcon26

PakSword said:


> OK guys, I have lost a few distant relatives in this crash. Husband, wife and 2 children.
> 
> Inna lillah e wa inna ilaihe raji'un.



Sorry for your loss, sending love and hugs your way. Stay strong.

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## -SINAN-

My condolences Pakistani bros.

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## PaklovesTurkiye

If we are not already depressed. This news just ......

We are facing hard times, as a country....Very unique hard times.

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## TOPGUN

This news has brought tears to my eyes, any human life lost any time is true and sad tragedy but specially now when this covid-19 is killing us humans as a whole ... " May ALLAH have mercy on us all " AMEEN !!

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## pak-marine

Zulfiqar said:


> RT from the plane.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RIP



very tragic but hats of to the pilot super stressful situation and the man kept his cool even may day call u hear no panic

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## Imran Khan

HAIDER said:


> Majority of PIA planse pass expiry date long time ago. Plane engine been checked 3 time before departure. Checking engine 3 time is unusual, not normal practice.
> Sadly, these people came to Karachi to celebrate eid after months of lockdown ....what a pain for waiting families.


sir you are worng about your both claims 

aircrafts checkup is must before flight be it any airlines or air force its not unusual
pai fleet is not majority passed life span 
they use three type of aircrafts with age 14-13-10 its just fine mid age fleet 
average fleet age is today 13.1 years

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## HAIDER

Imran Khan said:


> sir you are worng about your both claims
> 
> aircrafts checkup is must before flight be it any airlines or air force its not unusual
> pai fleet is not majority passed life span
> they use three type of aircrafts with age 14-13-10 its just fine mid age fleet
> average fleet age is today 13.1 years


Sir ji manufacturing date goes back to around 1984 and introduce in market in 1987. It was best plane of that time. But this plane been stopped and check its engine 3 times. Stopping 3 time is not usual.


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## krash

HAIDER said:


> Majority of PIA planse pass expiry date long time ago.



No they have not. Please don't spread misinformation, at this time at least.



HAIDER said:


> Sir ji manufacturing date goes back to around 1984 and introduce in market in 1987. It was best plane of that time.



What are you talking about? The aircraft that crashed first flew in Aug, 2004. It is one of the best in its class today.






https://www.planespotters.net/airfr...ld-pia-pakistan-international-airlines/r7gzjr

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Syed1. said:


> Also correct me if I'm wrong bird strike can lead to engine fire but complete shutdown of the engine is unlikely, unless manually powered off


Bird strike mostly caused engine flame out without fire, however it can also cause fire. What is meant by Flame out is engine is producing any power. The aircraft on decent and at landing is normally on idle which indicates that as soon as there is bird strike the engine switches off. 




Knuckles said:


> Tragic. Landing gear problems, engine problems with a miscalculated decision to burn too much fuel. Missed approach followed by Go-around and after that it was just tragic. As someone who works on A320s, this saddens me a lot.


Sir, 
It is still not clear which came first Landing gear extension or engine failure. We can only speculate that the pilots did not get the three greens on the first attempt hence they executed a go around. The last audio that has been aired on various news channels only gives out a call stating out of 3500 for 3000 feet 5 miles established on ILS 25L. The ATC replied with a new heading which is corrected by the pilot that they are established on the ILS at which ATC asked they attempting a belly landing. within seconds of that trimer adjustment and a call from atc you have decended to 2000ft now maintain 2000. Now a MayDay is issued with we have lost engines. It is still not clear if both engines were lost at that time together or they had lost one earlier and lost the remaining one. 

Your comment regarding miss calculation of fuel could be a valid reason for a duel engine flameout. 

Here is a cctv video of the aircraft at the very last stage of its flight, it can be seen that the nose of the aircraft has pitched up. The only reason that comes to my mind is the pilot is desperately trying to convert access speed into height so that he can continue to fly a few more 400-500 meters to the runway. We can clearly see the aircraft is in a clean configuration i.e No Flaps and No Landing gear extended. In this configuration approach speeds are far higher and also the stall speed is high. 








Aspen said:


> Then why did video show plane's landing gear was down in correct position?
> 
> Also, how could plane run out of fuel if this was only second landing attempt?

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## Imran Khan

HAIDER said:


> Sir ji manufacturing date goes back to around 1984 and introduce in market in 1987. It was best plane of that time. But this plane been stopped and check its engine 3 times. Stopping 3 time is not usual.


bhai which aircraft in PIA have manufactured in 1984 ? or even 1994 ? all of PIA fleet is manufactured in 2004+ . from where you got information ??????? ALL 32 aircrafts are just fine as per age .


b777FLEET







ATR-42 /72






A320 FLEET

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## PaklovesTurkiye

Lister to her....A model colony lady doctor when in her kitchen, felt

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## Baba_Yaga

RIP to the dead and condolences to their families. What a shitty year.


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## SQ8

krash said:


> No they have not. Please don't spread misinformation, at this time at least.
> 
> 
> 
> What are you talking about? The aircraft that crashed first flew in Aug, 2004. It is one of the best in its class today.
> 
> View attachment 634889
> 
> 
> https://www.planespotters.net/airfr...ld-pia-pakistan-international-airlines/r7gzjr


People aren’t able to grasp service lifecycles of airplanes because in their mind they compare it to other consumer vehicles.

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## IceCold

Socra said:


> People aren’t able to grasp service lifecycles of airplanes because in their mind they compare it to other consumer vehicles.


As per the CEO of PIA, plane was cleared by the engineering department, question arises how come two faults occurred? First there was the landing gear that jammed, had it not jammed the plane would had landed and than not one but both engines failed, why? 
So either the engineering department fucked up or the plane wasn't as great as claimed by few.

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## Imran Khan

krash said:


> No they have not. Please don't spread misinformation, at this time at least.
> 
> 
> 
> What are you talking about? The aircraft that crashed first flew in Aug, 2004. It is one of the best in its class today.
> 
> View attachment 634889
> 
> 
> https://www.planespotters.net/airfr...ld-pia-pakistan-international-airlines/r7gzjr


also age is not last factor we don't know how many hours that a320 fly . sometime leasing company have no costumer and planes stores months without flying . if age was the factor all of USAF B-52 should be crashed 30 years ago . some 50 years old planes flying in pakistan too today . emirates using 14-13 years old many planes saudi airlines using some even 1993 manufactured B747 daily . turkish airlines have some 20 years old aircrafts .air china have 25 years old cargo 747-400s .Singapore airlines also using some old planes . just recently many airlines retired thier last combies .yes we have problems of safety and maintenance also may be training of crew . but blaming 15 years old aircrafts for aged is not a logic . in USA -NETHERLAND - and few other countries 45 years old DC-10S are still active .



Socra said:


> People aren’t able to grasp service lifecycles of airplanes because in their mind they compare it to other consumer vehicles.


in this case pakistanis are masters to using 40 years old buses and cars ,

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## Dalit

Syed1. said:


> Anyone seen Cyril Almeida's tweet? Jitni galliyan do in suwaron ko kam hai



What did the pig say?

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## Baghial

“black boxes which have been recovered, There are two kinds. The flight data recorders keep track of flight parameters such altitude, heading, instrument readings, power settings and flight control inputs. The cockpit voice recorders store all communications with the aircraft, including from air traffic controllers, and record any conversations among cockpit occupants and other audible cockpit sounds for the two hours leading up to the crash. All that information lets analysts reconstruct, and even create video simulations of, the last moments of the plane’s flight..


*Technical groups*
look at technical aspects that might have contributed in any way to the crash. They look at air traffic control activity and instructions, weather, human performance issues like crew experience and training, maintenance records, emergency response, safety equipment, aircraft performance and subsystems.

They may disassemble the crashed plane’s engines or other components and use flight simulators to attempt to experience what the pilots were dealing with. Analysts even study the metals used to make components to see how they should perform – to later compare that information with what actually happened during the crash.

After they rigorously analyze all the data, devise, test and evaluate different hypotheses for what could have happened, the investigative team must determine causes and contributing factors. The goal is to identify anything – acts someone did (or didn’t) do, properties of a materials, gusts of wind, and so on – that had any role in the crash.


such major crash investigations are an enormous effort often involving many countries’ governments and input from dozens of industry partners. The inquiries can take months of painstaking work. They often yield important insights that improve flight safety for everyone long into the future.

The report should include both immediate causes – such as active failures of pilots or maintenance crew – and underlying reasons, like insufficient training or pressure to rush through a task.



The automation in the aircraft, whether it’s a Boeing or an Airbus, has lulled us into a sense of security and safety,

“pilots become a systems operator rather than a stick-and-rudder pilot.

As a result, “they may not exactly know or recognize quickly enough what is happening to the aircraft, and by the time they figure it out, it may be too late.”


Complicated automation systems can also confuse pilots and potentially cause them to take action they shouldn’t, 




They can punch the buttons, but will they be able to fly that airplane when it breaks?

Chesley B. Sullenberger IIIwho , landed a US Airways jet with 155 people aboard in the Hudson River.asked this chilling question..


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## PakSword

People who were saying that the plane touched the ground and then again took-off, looks like they were right:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1263916225526206466
@Counter-Errorist @Safriz @PanzerKiel

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## Baghial

Imran Khan said:


> also age is not last factor we don't know how many hours that a320 fly . sometime leasing company have no costumer and planes stores months without flying . if age was the factor all of USAF B-52 should be crashed 30 years ago . some 50 years old planes flying in pakistan too today . emirates using 14-13 years old many planes saudi airlines using some even 1993 manufactured B747 daily . turkish airlines have some 20 years old aircrafts .air china have 25 years old cargo 747-400s .Singapore airlines also using some old planes . just recently many airlines retired thier last combies .yes we have problems of safety and maintenance also may be training of crew . but blaming 15 years old aircrafts for aged is not a logic . in USA -NETHERLAND - and few other countries 45 years old DC-10S are still active .
> 
> 
> in this case pakistanis are masters to using 40 years old buses and cars ,




most important and costly piece of airbus- 320 is its engines,
a pair costs around 50 million dollars,



PakSword said:


> People who were saying that the plane touched the ground and then again took-off, looks like they were right:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1263916225526206466
> @Counter-Errorist @Safriz @PanzerKiel




first landing was un successfull........ plane came as close as 275 meters above runway.


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## PakSword

Baghial said:


> first landing was un successfull........ plane came as close as 275 meters above runway.



The passenger says he felt shocks and then plane again took off.

Listen from 00:28

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## Safriz

PakSword said:


> People who were saying that the plane touched the ground and then again took-off, looks like they were right:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1263916225526206466
> @Counter-Errorist @Safriz @PanzerKiel


That seems to be a plausible explanation for the damaged engine underbelly

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## PakSword

Safriz said:


> That seems to be a plausible explanation for the damaged engine underbelly
> 
> View attachment 634894


Yes, and this might be the reason of engine failure.

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## Vortex

PakSword said:


> OK guys, I have lost a few distant relatives in this crash. Husband, wife and 2 children.
> 
> Inna lillah e wa inna ilaihe raji'un.




*Inna lillah wa inna ilayhi raaji'uun*

May Allah give you and all families strength and sabr.

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## Safriz

Baghial said:


> most important and costly piece of airbus- 320 is its engines,
> a pair costs around 50 million dollars,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> first landing was un successfull........ plane came as close as 275 meters above runway.


That altitude reading is from ACARS which is 3 times erroneous in z axis than X,y.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

HAIDER said:


> Sir ji manufacturing date goes back to around 1984 and introduce in market in 1987. It was best plane of that time. But this plane been stopped and check its engine 3 times. Stopping 3 time is not usual.


Bhai 
Boeing 737 dates back to the 70's so do you think why are these still being manufactured today. If you do book an aircraft like Boeing 737 or airbus today the delivery time that you will be given will be around 2030. It only takes 5 days to assemble one A-320 or B-737. on the 6th day it is tested on ground and on 7th day air test begins so by the 10th day this new aircraft can be delivered to the customer.


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## PakAlp

Inna lillahi wa Inna ilaihe raji'un.
May Allah azzawajal grant them all Jannatul firdous. Ameen

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## Baghial

https://news.aviation-safety.net/20...ight-deck-management-in-windshear-conditions/


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## Aspen

Here is my theory:

1. Plane comes in for 1st landing attempt
2. Landing gear extends down but does not fully lock
3. Pilots have no idea that gear is faulty
4. When plane lands, gear is unstable, engines hit ground
5. When engine hits ground, pylon loosens spilling fuel
5. Black skid marks on engines caused by ground contact
6. Pilot immediately goes around
7. Plane goes around for 2nd landing attempt
8. Plane is circles in air for 7 minutes between landings
9. During these 7 minutes, fuel is rapidly leaking out
10. Plane runs out of fuel and stalls, crashes

There are some big mysteries here. Certain things do not add up:

1. How can it be possible for pilots to not know gear was not fully locked? In ATC tapes you can hear alarm was going off in cockpit so pilots probably knew gear was faulty at some point during at least one of the landing attempts. Only explanation for alarm going off in cockpit which is heard on ATC tape and for the pilots to not know about landing gear problem is that the alarm we hear on the tape is actually not the gear alarm but some other alarm, maybe the engines failed first? Could plausibly explain why gear looked down in good position on CCTV, but does not explain why pilots talked to ATC about gear problems or how plane was able to go around or do an aborted landing if engines failed. Can someone check if alarm was heard first or if pilot told ATC about gear problems before alarms were heard on tape?
2. Which came first, landing gear problem or engine problem?
3. I doubt any bird strike happened because pilot would have mentioned it on ATC tape. Usually pilot will tell ATC what the problem is if they know. If they didn't tell ATC what the problem was, they probably didn't know what it was themselves. They said they had gear issues but nothing about birds, so bird strike theory is out. Frankly, I must say if the plane did hit the ground during 1st landing attempt, I am amazed why ATC didn’t tell pilots anything about it? ATC should have at least told pilots, “Hey you guys hit the runway” because pilots have no way of knowing or seeing the damage on the bottom of their own plane while ATC can. On the ATC tape, there is also something that sounds like a fire alarm. If there was an engine fire, did pilot use fire handle and accidentally shut down both engines instead of only 1 engine? If pilot pulls fire handle, engines cannot be restarted so pilot would be gliding from the time alarm was heard all the way to the runway. Pilots would’ve had enough altitude to glide safely to runway from roughly the time when alarm was heard on the ATC tape if they pulled fire handles themselves. A sudden loss of power near runway like CCTV video suggests something dramatic and catastrophic happened out of their control in the last few seconds that would have not given them enough warning, time, or altitude to glide to the runway compared to pulling fire handles while circling at safe altitude with plenty of time.
4. Ram Air Turbine was deployed in picture before landing in addition to Mayday call to ATC so whatever happened was not sudden, pilots knew they had a major and potentially catastrophic problem on their hands well before they were landing. Ram Air Turbine is deployed in a situation where you have lost all hydraulic power caused by dual engine failure, and is clear evidence that landing gear problem was caused by hydraulic issues since hydraulic problems is the only reason pilot would deploy Ram Air Turbine. Huge mystery with this is that if Ram Air Turbine was deployed because of hydraulic loss from a dual engine failure, why was plane was flying steady and normally for several minutes when pic was taken and then suddenly crash on approach. A crash indicates a loss of power very close to the runway. Ram Air Turbine being deployed high in the air during circle pattern when pic was taken indicates pilots were aware way before landing for as long as 5 minutes that they had lost both engines because it would’ve caused them to deploy Ram Air Turbine seen in the pic taken 5 minutes before landing. This would have given them plenty of altitude to glide in a way that they could safely reach the runway compared to a sudden loss of power at low altitude near the runway. If both engines failed 5 minutes before landing, why didn’t they tell ATC? If engines failed seconds before crash, then why did pilots deploy Ram Air Turbine while they were circling? Engines would’ve been fine when plane was circling and no hydraulic problems would’ve happened, so why did they deploy Ram Air Turbine? Maybe Ram Air Turbine was part of emergency checklist for a hydraulic failure caused by engine scraping runway and leaking hydraulic fluid. Ram Air Turbine doesn’t need hydraulic fluid so maybe pilots used it as an alternate way to lower the landing gear after total hydraulic failure after dual engine failure.
5. On ATC, it sounds like pilots requested a belly landing. If this was during 1st landing attempt, then it means they DID know gear might fail before 1st landing. This would explain why only engines have black marks and not the rest of the belly. If they expected a gear failure before landing, they would have been ready to go around as soon as the gear failed to avoid causing major damage. Checking the runway to see if there are any skid marks is a good idea.
6. The theory that gear was stuck and would not come down is totally false because we can see it was down in the video. It is possible that it was down and NOT locked which can cause plane to hit the ground and cause minor skid marks but this is not the same thing as it being stuck completely which results in a belly landing and much more severe damage than we see in the pic taken while plane was circling. There are no major scratches besides engines that would indicate a belly landing.
7. I do not think pilots were surprised that gear failed, there must have been some indication of this in cockpit so they would've expected or it, or at least known something was off.
8. Interesting to note that flaps and slats were not deployed in CCTV video and plane has very high angle of attack. Flaps are used during landing to decrease speed and decrease altitude. The fact that plane did not have flaps and slats deployed in CCTV video meant that the pilot consciously tried to do anything possible to increase altitude after both engines shut down. High angle of attack indicates that the plane was almost certainly gliding, because the angle would have been much shallower if engines had power. Pilot was fighting until last moment to do anything to increase altitude by retracting flaps so he could glide farther past residential area but didn't make it. Alternate possibility is that flaps were retracted because of total hydraulic failure which also explains why landing gear had issues since that is also caused by total hydraulic failure caused by dual engine failure.
9. The theory about fuel running out is possible but one big problem with this theory is that huge fireball went up after it crashed, a plane that has run out of fuel will not make a fireball like that because you need fuel to combust.

So there is basically this triangle of factors that do not add up.

If plane was gliding on CCTV video, it ran out of fuel, but fireball on impact means that it did not run out of fuel. So if it did have fuel, why was it gliding??? If it ran out of fuel, why was there a fireball????

Other problems:

If both engines failed, then plane ran out of fuel, but if plane didn't run out of fuel, then why did both engines fail? In my opinion, it's not possible for plane to have run out fuel because they have extra reserves in case of go around and 1 go around is not enough to use all of it. The only other explanation is that fuel tank was ruptured during botched landing but this is extremely unlikely. And only situation where fuel could have leaked is if the fuel tank was ruptured and both engines use the same leaking fuel tank instead of separate fuel tanks. Both rupture and use of a single tank for both engines is highly unlikely. Only other thing that can cause dual engine failure is dual bird strike but pilots would have told ATC if this was the case.

Big mystery is did landing gear fail first or did engines fail first?

1. If landing gear failed first, pilots would have known before landing and it would explain skid marks on engine and aborted landing. But landing gear failure does not explain why fuel ran out causing the gliding just before crash seen on CCTV since fuel running out is the only reason both engines can shut down, but landing gear would not cause problems with engine. Unless the aborted landing caused engine damage such that fuel leaked directly out of engine instead of the fuel tank? Does anyone know if location of oil sump is on the bottom of the engine which scraped runway where black skid marks are? If these oil sumps were on bottom of the engine and they scraped runway, this could have caused a major leak. The question is, what was leaking? Was it fuel that was leaking or hydraulic fluid that was leaking? I wonder if the white smoke in the picture is hydraulic fluid leaking. I think that white smoke we are seeing in the picture is not a fuel leak but actually a hydraulic leak. The plane was flying way too long after the pic was taken, if it was a fuel leak, it would have run out of fuel and crashed much sooner than it did. A hydraulic leak makes more sense in my opinion because it also explains flaps and landing gear failure. If fuel was leaking, plane should’ve crashed immediately or within seconds of fuel leak. If hydraulic fluid leaked where the black skid marks on bottom of engine are, then it means plane had plenty of fuel and no fuel leak but it did have a hydraulic leak which caused total hydraulic failure causing landing gear and flaps problems. It is possible maybe the flight control loss was so severe because of total hydraulic failure that pilots could not even use flaps to give airplane to pitch up for altitude during landing or even basic flight control. As more hydraulic fluid leaked out, the pilots cockpit stick control got cut off from the wings since hydraulic fluid is what connects it and pilot input had no effect on ailerons. So maybe it was leaking of hydraulic and thus inability of pilots to have any flight or direction control that was responsible for sudden fall on CCTV and not fuel running out. Problem with this theory is that engine blades at crash site don’t show damage which means engines were shut down when plane crashed. So it ran out fuel. But then what caused fuel to run out of skid marks only caused hydraulic failure? Huge mystery. If landing gear failed before dual engine failure, what caused hydraulic failure of landing gear in the first place if it wasn’t dual engine failure?
2. The alternate theory is that both engines failed first. This would explain the landing gear problems, because both engines failing would cause a total loss of hydraulic power which is exactly the kind of problem that would cause landing gear issues like gear not locking. Loss of both engines would cause alarms to go off in cockpit heard on ATC tape but gear problems could also have caused similar alarms. The problem with this theory is that if engines failed, the plane would not have had enough power to go around and would only have 1 landing attempt. So the engines would have failed after the landing gear problems and aborted landing which means that landing gear problems came first. The other problem with this theory is what could cause both engines to fail before landing gear if its not bird strike or fuel running out?

It is completely circular logic, landing gear failure needs engine failure first to cause hydraulic problems, but engine failure needs gear failure to somehow cause fuel to run out.

Mystery grows even bigger because if aborted landing damaged engines when it hit the ground, why did plane fly perfectly for 7 minutes in the air, and then suddenly both engines fail at same moment. If engine got damaged when it hit the ground during aborted landing, engine problems would have happened on runway. So this indicates fuel ran out, but we already know that didn't happen because fireball on impact cannot happen without combustible fuel.

So then what caused it? Did engines fail first or did gear fail first? And did fuel run out?

I think you can see where my frustration is coming from. Things are not adding up.

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## Blacklight

Imran Khan said:


> also age is not last factor we don't know how many hours that a320 fly . sometime leasing company have no costumer and planes stores months without flying . if age was the factor all of USAF B-52 should be crashed 30 years ago . some 50 years old planes flying in pakistan too today . emirates using 14-13 years old many planes saudi airlines using some even 1993 manufactured B747 daily . turkish airlines have some 20 years old aircrafts .air china have 25 years old cargo 747-400s .Singapore airlines also using some old planes . just recently many airlines retired thier last combies .yes we have problems of safety and maintenance also may be training of crew . but blaming 15 years old aircrafts for aged is not a logic . in USA -NETHERLAND - and few other countries 45 years old DC-10S are still active .
> 
> 
> in this case pakistanis are masters to using 40 years old buses and cars ,


The recent "Certificate of Maintenance Review" aka "A Check" issued for AP-BLD, on 28-04-2020 was valid till 25-10-2020.

As per the Certificate
Type: A320-214,
Reg: AP-BLD
Hours: 47,108
Cycles: 25,860

Certificate approved by Chief Engineer Quality Assurance, PIA J.I.A.P. Karachi, Noorul Qadir. AME No. 1436 on 28 April 2020.


https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/pia-...with-93-on-board.667671/page-17#post-12352858

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## Baghial

Safriz said:


> That seems to be a plausible explanation for the damaged engine underbelly
> 
> View attachment 634894



need to wait for investigation report, i guess



Aspen said:


> Here is my theory:
> 
> 1. Plane comes in for 1st landing attempt
> 2. Landing gear extends down but does not fully lock
> 3. Pilots have no idea that gear is faulty
> 4. When plane lands, gear is unstable, engines hit ground
> 5. When engine hits ground, pylon loosens spilling fuel
> 5. Black skid marks on engines caused by ground contact
> 6. Pilot immediately goes around
> 7. Plane goes around for 2nd landing attempt
> 8. Plane is circles in air for 7 minutes between landings
> 9. During these 7 minutes, fuel is rapidly leaking out
> 10. Plane runs out of fuel and stalls, crashes
> 
> There are some big mysteries here. Certain things do not add up:
> 
> 1. How can it be possible for pilots to not know gear was not fully locked? In ATC tapes you can hear alarm was going off in cockpit so pilots probably knew gear was faulty at some point during at least one of the landing attempts. Only explanation for alarm going off in cockpit which is heard on ATC tape and for the pilots to not know about landing gear problem is that the alarm we hear on the tape is actually not the gear alarm but some other alarm, maybe the engines failed first? Could plausibly explain why gear looked down in good position on CCTV, but does not explain why pilots talked to ATC about gear problems. Can someone check if alarm was heard first or if pilot told ATC about gear problems before alarms were heard on tape?
> 2. Which came first, landing gear problem or engine problem?
> 3. I doubt any bird strike happened because pilot would have mentioned it on ATC tape. Usually pilot will tell ATC what the problem is if they know. If they didn't tell ATC what the problem was, they probably didn't know what it was themselves. They said they had gear issues but nothing about birds, so bird strike theory is out.
> 4. Ram Air Turbine was deployed in picture before landing so whatever happened was not sudden, pilots knew they had a major problem before they were landing.
> 5. On ATC, it sounds like pilots requested a belly landing. If this was during 1st landing attempt, then it means they DID know gear might fail before 1st landing. This would explain why only engines have black marks and not the rest of the belly. If they expected a gear failure before landing, they would have been ready to go around as soon as the gear failed to avoid causing major damage.
> 6. The theory that gear was stuck and would not come down is totally false because we can see it was down in the video. It is possible that it was down and NOT locked which can cause plane to hit the ground and cause minor skid marks but this is not the same thing as it being stuck completely which results in a belly landing and much more severe damage than we see in the pic taken while plane was circling. There are no major scratches besides engines that would indicate a belly landing.
> 7. I do not think pilots were surprised that gear failed, there must have been some indication of this in cockpit so they would've expected or it, or at least known something was off.
> 8. Interesting to note that flaps and slats were not deployed in CCTV video and plane has very high angle of attack. Flaps are used during landing to decrease speed and decrease altitude. The fact that plane did not have flaps and slats deployed in CCTV video meant that the pilot consciously tried to do anything possible to increase altitude after both engines shut down. High angle of attack indicates that the plane was almost certainly gliding, because the angle would have been much shallower if engines had power. Pilot was fighting until last moment to do anything to increase altitude by retracting flaps so he could glide farther past residential area but didn't make it.
> 9. The theory about fuel running out is possible but one big problem with this theory is that huge fireball went up after it crashed, a plane that has run out of fuel will not make a fireball like that because you need fuel to combust.
> 
> So there is basically this triangle of factors that do not add up.
> 
> If plane was gliding on CCTV video, it ran out of fuel, but fireball on impact means that it did not run out of fuel. So if it did have fuel, why was it gliding??? If it ran out of fuel, why was there a fireball????
> 
> Other problems:
> 
> If both engines failed, then plane ran out of fuel, but if plane didn't run out of fuel, then why did both engines fail? In my opinion, it's not possible for plane to have run out fuel because they have extra reserves in case of go around and 1 go around is not enough to use all of it. The only other explanation is that fuel tank was ruptured during botched landing but this is extremely unlikely. Only other thing that can cause dual engine failure is dual bird strike but pilots would have told ATC if this was the case.
> 
> Big mystery is did landing gear fail first or did engines fail first?
> 
> 1. If landing gear failed first, pilots would have known before landing and it would explain skid marks on engine and aborted landing. But landing gear failure does not explain why fuel ran out causing the gliding just before crash seen on CCTV since fuel running out is the only reason both engines can shut down, but landing gear would not cause problems with engine.
> 2. The alternate theory is that both engines failed first. This would explain the landing gear problems, because both engines failing would cause a total loss of hydraulic power which is exactly the kind of problem that would cause landing gear issues like gear not locking. Loss of both engines would cause alarms to go off in cockpit heard on ATC tape but gear problems could also have caused similar alarms. The problem with this theory is that if engines failed, the plane would not have had enough power to go around and would only have 1 landing attempt. So the engines would have failed after the landing gear problems and aborted landing which means that landing gear problems came first. The other problem with this theory is what could cause both engines to fail before landing gear if its not bird strike or fuel running out?
> 
> It is completely circular logic, landing gear failure needs engine failure first to cause hydraulic problems, but engine failure needs gear failure to somehow cause fuel to run out.
> 
> Mystery grows even bigger because if aborted landing damaged engines when it hit the ground, why did plane fly perfectly for 7 minutes in the air, and then suddenly both engines fail at same moment. If engine got damaged when it hit the ground during aborted landing, engine problems would have happened on runway. So this indicates fuel ran out, but we already know that didn't happen because fireball on impact cannot happen without combustible fuel.
> 
> So then what caused it? Did engines fail first or did gear fail first? And did fuel run out?
> 
> I think you can see where my frustration is coming from. Things are not adding up.






all the answers are on flight data recorder, french are the best to decode it.

and airbus CEO, will be on heels also, due to airbus 320 crash.


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## Safriz

Baghial said:


> need to wait for investigation report, i guess
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> all the answers are on flight data recorder, french are the best to decode it.
> 
> and airbus CEO, will be on heels also, due to airbus 320 crash.


Of course.
We are only speculating as general public.

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## AZ1

more than one bird hit the plane causing engine failure.


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## undercover JIX

RIP, very sad news.

Experts on PDF have already gave their verdict. Pathetic people to say the least.

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## Baghial

Aspen said:


> Here is my theory:
> 
> 1. Plane comes in for 1st landing attempt
> 2. Landing gear extends down but does not fully lock
> 3. Pilots have no idea that gear is faulty
> 4. When plane lands, gear is unstable, engines hit ground
> 5. When engine hits ground, pylon loosens spilling fuel
> 5. Black skid marks on engines caused by ground contact
> 6. Pilot immediately goes around
> 7. Plane goes around for 2nd landing attempt
> 8. Plane is circles in air for 7 minutes between landings
> 9. During these 7 minutes, fuel is rapidly leaking out
> 10. Plane runs out of fuel and stalls, crashes
> 
> There are some big mysteries here. Certain things do not add up:
> 
> 1. How can it be possible for pilots to not know gear was not fully locked? In ATC tapes you can hear alarm was going off in cockpit so pilots probably knew gear was faulty at some point during at least one of the landing attempts. Only explanation for alarm going off in cockpit which is heard on ATC tape and for the pilots to not know about landing gear problem is that the alarm we hear on the tape is actually not the gear alarm but some other alarm, maybe the engines failed first? Could plausibly explain why gear looked down in good position on CCTV, but does not explain why pilots talked to ATC about gear problems or how plane was able to go around or do an aborted landing if engines failed. Can someone check if alarm was heard first or if pilot told ATC about gear problems before alarms were heard on tape?
> 2. Which came first, landing gear problem or engine problem?
> 3. I doubt any bird strike happened because pilot would have mentioned it on ATC tape. Usually pilot will tell ATC what the problem is if they know. If they didn't tell ATC what the problem was, they probably didn't know what it was themselves. They said they had gear issues but nothing about birds, so bird strike theory is out.
> 4. Ram Air Turbine was deployed in picture before landing so whatever happened was not sudden, pilots knew they had a major problem before they were landing.
> 5. On ATC, it sounds like pilots requested a belly landing. If this was during 1st landing attempt, then it means they DID know gear might fail before 1st landing. This would explain why only engines have black marks and not the rest of the belly. If they expected a gear failure before landing, they would have been ready to go around as soon as the gear failed to avoid causing major damage.
> 6. The theory that gear was stuck and would not come down is totally false because we can see it was down in the video. It is possible that it was down and NOT locked which can cause plane to hit the ground and cause minor skid marks but this is not the same thing as it being stuck completely which results in a belly landing and much more severe damage than we see in the pic taken while plane was circling. There are no major scratches besides engines that would indicate a belly landing.
> 7. I do not think pilots were surprised that gear failed, there must have been some indication of this in cockpit so they would've expected or it, or at least known something was off.
> 8. Interesting to note that flaps and slats were not deployed in CCTV video and plane has very high angle of attack. Flaps are used during landing to decrease speed and decrease altitude. The fact that plane did not have flaps and slats deployed in CCTV video meant that the pilot consciously tried to do anything possible to increase altitude after both engines shut down. High angle of attack indicates that the plane was almost certainly gliding, because the angle would have been much shallower if engines had power. Pilot was fighting until last moment to do anything to increase altitude by retracting flaps so he could glide farther past residential area but didn't make it.
> 9. The theory about fuel running out is possible but one big problem with this theory is that huge fireball went up after it crashed, a plane that has run out of fuel will not make a fireball like that because you need fuel to combust.
> 
> So there is basically this triangle of factors that do not add up.
> 
> If plane was gliding on CCTV video, it ran out of fuel, but fireball on impact means that it did not run out of fuel. So if it did have fuel, why was it gliding??? If it ran out of fuel, why was there a fireball????
> 
> Other problems:
> 
> If both engines failed, then plane ran out of fuel, but if plane didn't run out of fuel, then why did both engines fail? In my opinion, it's not possible for plane to have run out fuel because they have extra reserves in case of go around and 1 go around is not enough to use all of it. The only other explanation is that fuel tank was ruptured during botched landing but this is extremely unlikely. Only other thing that can cause dual engine failure is dual bird strike but pilots would have told ATC if this was the case.
> 
> Big mystery is did landing gear fail first or did engines fail first?
> 
> 1. If landing gear failed first, pilots would have known before landing and it would explain skid marks on engine and aborted landing. But landing gear failure does not explain why fuel ran out causing the gliding just before crash seen on CCTV since fuel running out is the only reason both engines can shut down, but landing gear would not cause problems with engine.
> 2. The alternate theory is that both engines failed first. This would explain the landing gear problems, because both engines failing would cause a total loss of hydraulic power which is exactly the kind of problem that would cause landing gear issues like gear not locking. Loss of both engines would cause alarms to go off in cockpit heard on ATC tape but gear problems could also have caused similar alarms. The problem with this theory is that if engines failed, the plane would not have had enough power to go around and would only have 1 landing attempt. So the engines would have failed after the landing gear problems and aborted landing which means that landing gear problems came first. The other problem with this theory is what could cause both engines to fail before landing gear if its not bird strike or fuel running out?
> 
> It is completely circular logic, landing gear failure needs engine failure first to cause hydraulic problems, but engine failure needs gear failure to somehow cause fuel to run out.
> 
> Mystery grows even bigger because if aborted landing damaged engines when it hit the ground, why did plane fly perfectly for 7 minutes in the air, and then suddenly both engines fail at same moment. If engine got damaged when it hit the ground during aborted landing, engine problems would have happened on runway. So this indicates fuel ran out, but we already know that didn't happen because fireball on impact cannot happen without combustible fuel.
> 
> So then what caused it? Did engines fail first or did gear fail first? And did fuel run out?
> 
> I think you can see where my frustration is coming from. Things are not adding up.



incomming to glide path as seen in verious videos, 
the last 500/600 meters sudden decent.caused the plane to deviated slightly to left, as , we hear on audio ,ATC.

thats how it hit the buildings? instead the runway-- which is just 1 minute short glide away.?????????


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## AZ1

undercover JIX said:


> RIP, very sad news.
> 
> Experts on PDF have already gave their verdict. Pathetic people to say the least.


 Initial report says bird hit the plane due to flying at lower distance from the ground.





__ https://www.facebook.com/





If we see closely to this video in start 0:01 second there was something fell from the plane don't know what was that. May be nothing.

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## Baghial

AZ1 said:


> more than one bird hit the plane causing engine failure.


 a flock of birds can cause damage to engines,
bird weight from 1-----4 kgs if sucked in engine will reduce engine to 75% capacity, but plane can still land safely.


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## AZ1

Baghial said:


> a flock of birds can cause damage to engines,
> bird weight from 1-----4 kgs if sucked in engine will reduce engine to 75% capacity, but plane can still land safely.



May be some jugaro kaam by PIA oldies goldies workers. Did some jugaro kaam in fuel pipe or so


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## Baghial

AZ1 said:


> May be some jugaro kaam by PIA oldies goldies workers. Did some jugaro kaam in fuel pipe or so


 i can hardly believe you think of such a scenario......


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## undercover JIX

AZ1 said:


> Initial report says bird hit the plane due to flying at lower distance from the ground.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If we see closely to this video in start 0:01 second there was something fell from the plane don't know what was that. May be nothing.
> 
> View attachment 634901


it is possible, may be better quality video can show better, with this CCTV quality there are so many variables.

But flock of birds definitely started to fly because of crash, which looks like the same area from where plane passed but because of the distance and quality cant say for sure, it can be before or after.


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## Syed1.

Didn't know PDF had so many aviation experts with minimum 10 years of flying experience each

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## AZ1

Baghial said:


> i can hardly believe you think of such a scenario......


 Then you must read this my friend. From a private Pilot.

بطور ایک پرائیوٹ پائلٹ کوشش کی ہے کہ عام قارئین کو بات سمجھ آ جائے اِسی لیے زیادہ ٹیکنیکل زبان سے پرہیز کِیا ہے ۔

معلوم نہیں کہ جب طیارہ لاہور سے کراچی پرواز کے لیے روانہ ہُوا تو اُس وقت اُس کے دونوں انجن ٹھیک حالت میں تھے یا ایک انجن ہی کام کر رہا تھا ۔ لینڈنگ گیئر کی کیا پوزیشن تھی کیا وُہ تکنیکی طور پر بالکل ٹھیک تھا ؟ عُموماً یہ ممکن نہیں ہوتا کہ دورانِ پرواز کِسی طیارے کے دونوں انجن بیک وقت یا تھوڑے وقفے کے بعد فیل ہو جائیں ۔ آج گِرنے والا طیارہ بھی دو انجن والا تھا لیکن ایسا نہیں ہے کہ کبھی طیارے کے دونوں انجن فیل نہ ہُوئے ہوں بہرحال اُس کی وجہ ہوتی ہے جیسے امریکن پائلٹ C.B.Sully کے کمرشل طیارے کی پرواز کے کُچھ لمحات بعد ہی پرندوں کے ٹکرانے سے دونوں انجن فیل ہوگئے اور اُس نے ایمرجینسی میں طیارے کو گلائیڈ کرتے ہُوئے دریائے ہڈسن میں اُتار دِیا اور تمام مسافر اور عملہ محفوظ رہے ۔ ایسی چند مثالیں اور بھی دی جاسکتی ہیں لیکن بات کرنے کا مقصد یہ تھا کہ بغیر انجن اور پاور کے بھی گلائیڈنگ اور لینڈنگ ممکن ہے ۔
ابھی یہ معلوم نہیں کہ طیارے کے لینڈنگ گیئر پُوری طرح کُھل پا رہے تھے یا اُدھورے کُھل رہے تھے ۔ لینڈنگ کے لیے جہاز کے لینڈنگ گیئر پُوری طرح کُھلے ہونے چاہئیے ۔ 
یہاں ہم یہ فرض کر لیتے ہیں کہ دونوں انجن فیل ہیں ، لینڈنگ گیئر پُوری طرح کُھل نہیں رہا تو اب پائلٹ کو کیا کرنا چاہئیے ؟ 
پائلٹ کو مُناسب حالات میں اگر ممکن ہو تو طیارے کو ایک دو ٹرن اراؤنڈ چکر لگوانا بہتر رہتا ہے تا کہ اگر سسٹم کی کمانڈ میں کوئی مسئلہ آ رہا ہے یا سائیڈ ایرر ہے تو وُہ دُور ہوجائے اور لینڈنگ گیئر کُھل سکیں لیکن یہ تب ہی ممکن ہے جب جہاز کے دونوں یا ایک انجن کام کر رہا ہو ، آپ کے جہاز کے پاس تھرسٹ ہو یا پھر آپ کی رن وے اپروچ پر پرواز کی بُلندی تین سے چار ہزار فیٹ ہو ۔ 
آج کراچی میں ہونے والے پی آئی اے کے طیارہ حادثے میں بُہت ساری چہ مگوئیاں جاری ہیں اور ظاہر ہے پاکستان میں ایئر بلیو حادثہ ہو ، بھوجا ایئر لائین حادثہ ہو یا جُنید جمشید طیارے کا سانحہ ہو کبھی بھی مکمل تحقیقات سامنے نہیں آئی ہیں خیر اس بات کو اِدھر روکتا ہُوں پہلے اپنی بات پُوری کر لُوں ۔
اچھا طیارے کے دونوں انجن فیل ہوگئے ، لینڈنگ گیئر مکمل نہیں کُھل رہا تھا اسی لیے پائلٹ نے طیارے کو چکر لگوانے کا فیصلہ کِیا ۔ لوگ مُجھ ناچیز پر ہنسیں گے لیکن یہ ایک نہایت ہی جلدبازی کا فیصلہ تھا میں اِس کو بے وقوفانہ فیصلہ نہیں کہتا کہ پائلٹ کی کوشش رہی ہوگی کہ لینڈنگ گیئر مکمل کُھل جائے تا کہ سیف لینڈنگ ممکن ہو سکے ۔
گلائیڈنگ کا حساب کِتاب کیا ہے ؟ تھرسٹ کے ختم ہونے کے بعد طیارے کی پرواز کی بُلندی ، آگے کا سفر اور نیچے گِرنے کا تناسب کیا ہے ؟ یہ تناسب 10:1 ہے یعنی بالفرض اگر طیارہ چھتیس ہزار فیٹ کی بُلندی پر ہو اور اُس کے دونوں انجن فیل ہو جائیں تو کیا خیال ہے کیا ہوگا ؟ طیارہ کِسی وزنی پتھر کی طرح زمین پر نہیں آن گِرے گا بلکہ ہر ایک میل نیچے آنے یعنی پرواز کی بُلندی کم ہونے پر وُہ سترہ میل 17 miles آگے فاصلہ طے کرسکے گا ۔اب چھتیس ہزار فیٹ تقریباً 7 میل بنتے ہیں تو اِس صُورت میں طیارہ 70 میل تک آگے فاصلہ طے کرسکتا ہے اور کسی قریبی ایئر پورٹ پر ہنگامی لینڈنگ کرسکتا ہے ۔
مذکورہ طیارہ ایئر پورٹ کے قریب پُہنچ چُکا تھا جس کی بُلندی ہزار فیٹ سے لے کر دو ہزار فیٹ تک عُموماً ہوتی ہے یعنی یہاں سے دوہزار فیٹ کی بُلندی ہونے کی صُورت میں طیارہ زمین سے0.3787 میل اُونچائی پر تھا اور اس کی آگے گلائیڈنگ 3.787 میل یعنی چار میل کے قریب کم از کم بنتی ہے ۔ جبکہ ہزار فیٹ کی بُلندی کی صُورت میں طیارہ 1.8935 میل یعنی دو میل کے لگ بھگ آگے فاصلہ طے کرسکتا تھا زمین کو چُھو نے سے قبل ۔
یاد رہے یہ ایک عُمومی فارمولا ہے جو بعض حالات میں ایک آدھ فیصد کم یا چند فیصد زیادہ بھی ممکن ہے ، ایکسیپشنز آر آلویز دیئر ۔
جی جناب دونوں انجن فیل ہیں ، وقت کم ہے مزید ہائیٹ آپ لے نہیں سکتے تو طیارے کو ٹرن اراؤنڈ کروانا ایک مُہلک اور غلط فیصلہ ہے ۔ آپ کو چاہئیے کہ ایئر پورٹ کے رن وے پر بیلی لینڈنگ کروانے کا مُشکل لیکن ناگُزیر فیصلہ لیں ۔ یہ ایک مُشکل لیکن آخری حل ہے ۔ یہ اِتنا زیادہ خطرناک نہیں جِتنا سُننے میں لگتا ہے ۔ ممکن ہے رگڑ کی وجہ سے طیارے میں آگ لگ جائے لیکن ایئر پورٹس پر فائیر بریگیڈ کا عملہ ایسے حالات سے نمٹنے کے لیے ہر وقت تیار ہوتا ہے ۔ مُجھے قوی یقین ہے کہ تمام مُسافر بشمول عملہ بچ جاتے یا شاید چند افراد اپنی جان سے جاتے لیکن یہی آخری حل تھا ۔
جناب اِس پوسٹ میں اِس سے زیادہ تکنیکی باتیں لِکھنا بے وقوفی ہوگی لیکن سوالات کُچھ اور بھی ہیں ۔
ایئر بھوجا طیارہ ، ایئر بلیو طیارہ اور جُنید جمشید والا طیارہ کیوں گِرے ؟ آخرالذکر طیارہ ایک انجن پر اُڑایا گیا کہ چھوٹی فلائیٹ ہے ( پنڈی ) اسلام آباد پُہنچ جائے گا لیکن جو ہُوا سب کے سامنے ہے ۔ کاک پُل پنڈی گرنے والا بھوجا ایئر لائین کا طیارہ اُڑنے کے قابل ہی نہیں تھا جس کو زبردستی کُچھ دے دِلا کر فِٹنس سرٹیفیکیٹ اور اجازت نامہ دلوایا گیا ۔ ایئر بلیو کا مُجھے معلوم نہیں ۔ اِن تمام حالیہ برسوں میں ہونے والے حادثات کا ذمہ دار کون ہے ؟ کیا اُن کو محض سزائیں دینا ، معطل کرنا یا نوکری سے برخاست کردینا کافی ہے یا اُن پر باقاعدہ مقدمات چلنے چاہئیے تھے ؟ کیا مرنے والے جو عید کی خُوشیاں اپنے پیاروں کے ساتھ منانے آ رہے تھے اُن کے لیے “ اللہ پاک مغفرت کرے اور لواحقین کو صبرِ جمیل عطا فرمائے ۔ آمین “ کہہ دینا کافی ہے یا اُن کو اِنصاف بھی مِلنا چاہئیے ؟ یا اُن کو شہید کہہ کر فائل بند کردیں ؟ 
تحقیقات کبھی پبلک تو کریں تاکہ ہمارے جیسے جُہلا کو بھی تو معلوم ہو کہ چل کیا رہا ہے ؟ آپ کو معلوم ہے یا نہیں لیکن جاتے جاتے ایک انوکھی بات بتاتا ہُوں ؛ ایک پی آئی اے کا طیارہ تھا جو کسی یورپی مُلک پُہنچا تو چیکنگ پر معلوم پڑا کہ انجن کو فیول دینے والے پائپ پر کِلپ کی جگہ تانبے کی تار کو بَل دے کر اُس کو انجیکٹر سے جوڑا گیا تھا یعنی اِتنی لمبی فلائیٹ کو ٹیکنیکل گراؤنڈ سٹاف نے “ جُگاڑ “ لگا کر بھیج دِیا ۔ وُہ طیارہ وہاں ہولڈ کر لِیا گیا ، پی آئی اے کو باقاعدہ لمبا چوڑا جُرمانہ بھی کِیا گیا ۔ 
دِل میں شدید دُکھ ہے ، ایسا لگتا ہے جیسے میرا کوئی سگا عزیز اِس حادثے میں چلا گیا ہو ، میں یہ پوسٹ نہیں لِکھنا چاہ رہا تھا لیکن آج نہ لِکھتا تو کل تک ہماری قوم کو کوئی نیا “ شغل “ مِل چُکا ہوتا ۔ میرا حکومت سے سوال ہے کہ پی آئی اے جیسے سفید ہاتھی کو کب تک پالیں گے ؟ اگر پرائیوٹائیز نہیں کرنا تو عملہ کب کم کرو گے ؟ دُنیا میں فی جہاز سب سے زیادہ عملہ پی آئی اے کا ہے ۔ اِس میں کب تک ریٹائیرڈ ایئرمارشلز کو اور فضائیہ کے تھکے ہُوئے پائلٹس کو بھرتی کرتے رہو گے ؟ او بھائی کوئی تو جواب دو ، ریاستِ مدینہ کے والی آپ ہی بتاؤ کب اِنصاف ہوگا اور کب ہم عوام کو احساس ہوگا کہ عوام یتیم نہیں کہ اِن “ جُگاڑیوں “ کے ہتھے چڑھی رہے گی ۔

Haroon Malik

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## Mrc

AZ1 said:


> Then you must read this my friend. From a private Pilot.
> 
> بطور ایک پرائیوٹ پائلٹ کوشش کی ہے کہ عام قارئین کو بات سمجھ آ جائے اِسی لیے زیادہ ٹیکنیکل زبان سے پرہیز کِیا ہے ۔
> 
> معلوم نہیں کہ جب طیارہ لاہور سے کراچی پرواز کے لیے روانہ ہُوا تو اُس وقت اُس کے دونوں انجن ٹھیک حالت میں تھے یا ایک انجن ہی کام کر رہا تھا ۔ لینڈنگ گیئر کی کیا پوزیشن تھی کیا وُہ تکنیکی طور پر بالکل ٹھیک تھا ؟ عُموماً یہ ممکن نہیں ہوتا کہ دورانِ پرواز کِسی طیارے کے دونوں انجن بیک وقت یا تھوڑے وقفے کے بعد فیل ہو جائیں ۔ آج گِرنے والا طیارہ بھی دو انجن والا تھا لیکن ایسا نہیں ہے کہ کبھی طیارے کے دونوں انجن فیل نہ ہُوئے ہوں بہرحال اُس کی وجہ ہوتی ہے جیسے امریکن پائلٹ C.B.Sully کے کمرشل طیارے کی پرواز کے کُچھ لمحات بعد ہی پرندوں کے ٹکرانے سے دونوں انجن فیل ہوگئے اور اُس نے ایمرجینسی میں طیارے کو گلائیڈ کرتے ہُوئے دریائے ہڈسن میں اُتار دِیا اور تمام مسافر اور عملہ محفوظ رہے ۔ ایسی چند مثالیں اور بھی دی جاسکتی ہیں لیکن بات کرنے کا مقصد یہ تھا کہ بغیر انجن اور پاور کے بھی گلائیڈنگ اور لینڈنگ ممکن ہے ۔
> ابھی یہ معلوم نہیں کہ طیارے کے لینڈنگ گیئر پُوری طرح کُھل پا رہے تھے یا اُدھورے کُھل رہے تھے ۔ لینڈنگ کے لیے جہاز کے لینڈنگ گیئر پُوری طرح کُھلے ہونے چاہئیے ۔
> یہاں ہم یہ فرض کر لیتے ہیں کہ دونوں انجن فیل ہیں ، لینڈنگ گیئر پُوری طرح کُھل نہیں رہا تو اب پائلٹ کو کیا کرنا چاہئیے ؟
> پائلٹ کو مُناسب حالات میں اگر ممکن ہو تو طیارے کو ایک دو ٹرن اراؤنڈ چکر لگوانا بہتر رہتا ہے تا کہ اگر سسٹم کی کمانڈ میں کوئی مسئلہ آ رہا ہے یا سائیڈ ایرر ہے تو وُہ دُور ہوجائے اور لینڈنگ گیئر کُھل سکیں لیکن یہ تب ہی ممکن ہے جب جہاز کے دونوں یا ایک انجن کام کر رہا ہو ، آپ کے جہاز کے پاس تھرسٹ ہو یا پھر آپ کی رن وے اپروچ پر پرواز کی بُلندی تین سے چار ہزار فیٹ ہو ۔
> آج کراچی میں ہونے والے پی آئی اے کے طیارہ حادثے میں بُہت ساری چہ مگوئیاں جاری ہیں اور ظاہر ہے پاکستان میں ایئر بلیو حادثہ ہو ، بھوجا ایئر لائین حادثہ ہو یا جُنید جمشید طیارے کا سانحہ ہو کبھی بھی مکمل تحقیقات سامنے نہیں آئی ہیں خیر اس بات کو اِدھر روکتا ہُوں پہلے اپنی بات پُوری کر لُوں ۔
> اچھا طیارے کے دونوں انجن فیل ہوگئے ، لینڈنگ گیئر مکمل نہیں کُھل رہا تھا اسی لیے پائلٹ نے طیارے کو چکر لگوانے کا فیصلہ کِیا ۔ لوگ مُجھ ناچیز پر ہنسیں گے لیکن یہ ایک نہایت ہی جلدبازی کا فیصلہ تھا میں اِس کو بے وقوفانہ فیصلہ نہیں کہتا کہ پائلٹ کی کوشش رہی ہوگی کہ لینڈنگ گیئر مکمل کُھل جائے تا کہ سیف لینڈنگ ممکن ہو سکے ۔
> گلائیڈنگ کا حساب کِتاب کیا ہے ؟ تھرسٹ کے ختم ہونے کے بعد طیارے کی پرواز کی بُلندی ، آگے کا سفر اور نیچے گِرنے کا تناسب کیا ہے ؟ یہ تناسب 10:1 ہے یعنی بالفرض اگر طیارہ چھتیس ہزار فیٹ کی بُلندی پر ہو اور اُس کے دونوں انجن فیل ہو جائیں تو کیا خیال ہے کیا ہوگا ؟ طیارہ کِسی وزنی پتھر کی طرح زمین پر نہیں آن گِرے گا بلکہ ہر ایک میل نیچے آنے یعنی پرواز کی بُلندی کم ہونے پر وُہ سترہ میل 17 miles آگے فاصلہ طے کرسکے گا ۔اب چھتیس ہزار فیٹ تقریباً 7 میل بنتے ہیں تو اِس صُورت میں طیارہ 70 میل تک آگے فاصلہ طے کرسکتا ہے اور کسی قریبی ایئر پورٹ پر ہنگامی لینڈنگ کرسکتا ہے ۔
> مذکورہ طیارہ ایئر پورٹ کے قریب پُہنچ چُکا تھا جس کی بُلندی ہزار فیٹ سے لے کر دو ہزار فیٹ تک عُموماً ہوتی ہے یعنی یہاں سے دوہزار فیٹ کی بُلندی ہونے کی صُورت میں طیارہ زمین سے0.3787 میل اُونچائی پر تھا اور اس کی آگے گلائیڈنگ 3.787 میل یعنی چار میل کے قریب کم از کم بنتی ہے ۔ جبکہ ہزار فیٹ کی بُلندی کی صُورت میں طیارہ 1.8935 میل یعنی دو میل کے لگ بھگ آگے فاصلہ طے کرسکتا تھا زمین کو چُھو نے سے قبل ۔
> یاد رہے یہ ایک عُمومی فارمولا ہے جو بعض حالات میں ایک آدھ فیصد کم یا چند فیصد زیادہ بھی ممکن ہے ، ایکسیپشنز آر آلویز دیئر ۔
> جی جناب دونوں انجن فیل ہیں ، وقت کم ہے مزید ہائیٹ آپ لے نہیں سکتے تو طیارے کو ٹرن اراؤنڈ کروانا ایک مُہلک اور غلط فیصلہ ہے ۔ آپ کو چاہئیے کہ ایئر پورٹ کے رن وے پر بیلی لینڈنگ کروانے کا مُشکل لیکن ناگُزیر فیصلہ لیں ۔ یہ ایک مُشکل لیکن آخری حل ہے ۔ یہ اِتنا زیادہ خطرناک نہیں جِتنا سُننے میں لگتا ہے ۔ ممکن ہے رگڑ کی وجہ سے طیارے میں آگ لگ جائے لیکن ایئر پورٹس پر فائیر بریگیڈ کا عملہ ایسے حالات سے نمٹنے کے لیے ہر وقت تیار ہوتا ہے ۔ مُجھے قوی یقین ہے کہ تمام مُسافر بشمول عملہ بچ جاتے یا شاید چند افراد اپنی جان سے جاتے لیکن یہی آخری حل تھا ۔
> جناب اِس پوسٹ میں اِس سے زیادہ تکنیکی باتیں لِکھنا بے وقوفی ہوگی لیکن سوالات کُچھ اور بھی ہیں ۔
> ایئر بھوجا طیارہ ، ایئر بلیو طیارہ اور جُنید جمشید والا طیارہ کیوں گِرے ؟ آخرالذکر طیارہ ایک انجن پر اُڑایا گیا کہ چھوٹی فلائیٹ ہے ( پنڈی ) اسلام آباد پُہنچ جائے گا لیکن جو ہُوا سب کے سامنے ہے ۔ کاک پُل پنڈی گرنے والا بھوجا ایئر لائین کا طیارہ اُڑنے کے قابل ہی نہیں تھا جس کو زبردستی کُچھ دے دِلا کر فِٹنس سرٹیفیکیٹ اور اجازت نامہ دلوایا گیا ۔ ایئر بلیو کا مُجھے معلوم نہیں ۔ اِن تمام حالیہ برسوں میں ہونے والے حادثات کا ذمہ دار کون ہے ؟ کیا اُن کو محض سزائیں دینا ، معطل کرنا یا نوکری سے برخاست کردینا کافی ہے یا اُن پر باقاعدہ مقدمات چلنے چاہئیے تھے ؟ کیا مرنے والے جو عید کی خُوشیاں اپنے پیاروں کے ساتھ منانے آ رہے تھے اُن کے لیے “ اللہ پاک مغفرت کرے اور لواحقین کو صبرِ جمیل عطا فرمائے ۔ آمین “ کہہ دینا کافی ہے یا اُن کو اِنصاف بھی مِلنا چاہئیے ؟ یا اُن کو شہید کہہ کر فائل بند کردیں ؟
> تحقیقات کبھی پبلک تو کریں تاکہ ہمارے جیسے جُہلا کو بھی تو معلوم ہو کہ چل کیا رہا ہے ؟ آپ کو معلوم ہے یا نہیں لیکن جاتے جاتے ایک انوکھی بات بتاتا ہُوں ؛ ایک پی آئی اے کا طیارہ تھا جو کسی یورپی مُلک پُہنچا تو چیکنگ پر معلوم پڑا کہ انجن کو فیول دینے والے پائپ پر کِلپ کی جگہ تانبے کی تار کو بَل دے کر اُس کو انجیکٹر سے جوڑا گیا تھا یعنی اِتنی لمبی فلائیٹ کو ٹیکنیکل گراؤنڈ سٹاف نے “ جُگاڑ “ لگا کر بھیج دِیا ۔ وُہ طیارہ وہاں ہولڈ کر لِیا گیا ، پی آئی اے کو باقاعدہ لمبا چوڑا جُرمانہ بھی کِیا گیا ۔
> دِل میں شدید دُکھ ہے ، ایسا لگتا ہے جیسے میرا کوئی سگا عزیز اِس حادثے میں چلا گیا ہو ، میں یہ پوسٹ نہیں لِکھنا چاہ رہا تھا لیکن آج نہ لِکھتا تو کل تک ہماری قوم کو کوئی نیا “ شغل “ مِل چُکا ہوتا ۔ میرا حکومت سے سوال ہے کہ پی آئی اے جیسے سفید ہاتھی کو کب تک پالیں گے ؟ اگر پرائیوٹائیز نہیں کرنا تو عملہ کب کم کرو گے ؟ دُنیا میں فی جہاز سب سے زیادہ عملہ پی آئی اے کا ہے ۔ اِس میں کب تک ریٹائیرڈ ایئرمارشلز کو اور فضائیہ کے تھکے ہُوئے پائلٹس کو بھرتی کرتے رہو گے ؟ او بھائی کوئی تو جواب دو ، ریاستِ مدینہ کے والی آپ ہی بتاؤ کب اِنصاف ہوگا اور کب ہم عوام کو احساس ہوگا کہ عوام یتیم نہیں کہ اِن “ جُگاڑیوں “ کے ہتھے چڑھی رہے گی ۔
> 
> Haroon Malik




this person who wrote this is no pilot...

he is supposing that pilot took a turn around with both engines not working. thats a very stupid assumption

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## Baghial

AZ1 said:


> Then you must read this my friend. From a private Pilot.
> 
> بطور ایک پرائیوٹ پائلٹ کوشش کی ہے کہ عام قارئین کو بات سمجھ آ جائے اِسی لیے زیادہ ٹیکنیکل زبان سے پرہیز کِیا ہے ۔
> 
> معلوم نہیں کہ جب طیارہ لاہور سے کراچی پرواز کے لیے روانہ ہُوا تو اُس وقت اُس کے دونوں انجن ٹھیک حالت میں تھے یا ایک انجن ہی کام کر رہا تھا ۔ لینڈنگ گیئر کی کیا پوزیشن تھی کیا وُہ تکنیکی طور پر بالکل ٹھیک تھا ؟ عُموماً یہ ممکن نہیں ہوتا کہ دورانِ پرواز کِسی طیارے کے دونوں انجن بیک وقت یا تھوڑے وقفے کے بعد فیل ہو جائیں ۔ آج گِرنے والا طیارہ بھی دو انجن والا تھا لیکن ایسا نہیں ہے کہ کبھی طیارے کے دونوں انجن فیل نہ ہُوئے ہوں بہرحال اُس کی وجہ ہوتی ہے جیسے امریکن پائلٹ C.B.Sully کے کمرشل طیارے کی پرواز کے کُچھ لمحات بعد ہی پرندوں کے ٹکرانے سے دونوں انجن فیل ہوگئے اور اُس نے ایمرجینسی میں طیارے کو گلائیڈ کرتے ہُوئے دریائے ہڈسن میں اُتار دِیا اور تمام مسافر اور عملہ محفوظ رہے ۔ ایسی چند مثالیں اور بھی دی جاسکتی ہیں لیکن بات کرنے کا مقصد یہ تھا کہ بغیر انجن اور پاور کے بھی گلائیڈنگ اور لینڈنگ ممکن ہے ۔
> ابھی یہ معلوم نہیں کہ طیارے کے لینڈنگ گیئر پُوری طرح کُھل پا رہے تھے یا اُدھورے کُھل رہے تھے ۔ لینڈنگ کے لیے جہاز کے لینڈنگ گیئر پُوری طرح کُھلے ہونے چاہئیے ۔
> یہاں ہم یہ فرض کر لیتے ہیں کہ دونوں انجن فیل ہیں ، لینڈنگ گیئر پُوری طرح کُھل نہیں رہا تو اب پائلٹ کو کیا کرنا چاہئیے ؟
> پائلٹ کو مُناسب حالات میں اگر ممکن ہو تو طیارے کو ایک دو ٹرن اراؤنڈ چکر لگوانا بہتر رہتا ہے تا کہ اگر سسٹم کی کمانڈ میں کوئی مسئلہ آ رہا ہے یا سائیڈ ایرر ہے تو وُہ دُور ہوجائے اور لینڈنگ گیئر کُھل سکیں لیکن یہ تب ہی ممکن ہے جب جہاز کے دونوں یا ایک انجن کام کر رہا ہو ، آپ کے جہاز کے پاس تھرسٹ ہو یا پھر آپ کی رن وے اپروچ پر پرواز کی بُلندی تین سے چار ہزار فیٹ ہو ۔
> آج کراچی میں ہونے والے پی آئی اے کے طیارہ حادثے میں بُہت ساری چہ مگوئیاں جاری ہیں اور ظاہر ہے پاکستان میں ایئر بلیو حادثہ ہو ، بھوجا ایئر لائین حادثہ ہو یا جُنید جمشید طیارے کا سانحہ ہو کبھی بھی مکمل تحقیقات سامنے نہیں آئی ہیں خیر اس بات کو اِدھر روکتا ہُوں پہلے اپنی بات پُوری کر لُوں ۔
> اچھا طیارے کے دونوں انجن فیل ہوگئے ، لینڈنگ گیئر مکمل نہیں کُھل رہا تھا اسی لیے پائلٹ نے طیارے کو چکر لگوانے کا فیصلہ کِیا ۔ لوگ مُجھ ناچیز پر ہنسیں گے لیکن یہ ایک نہایت ہی جلدبازی کا فیصلہ تھا میں اِس کو بے وقوفانہ فیصلہ نہیں کہتا کہ پائلٹ کی کوشش رہی ہوگی کہ لینڈنگ گیئر مکمل کُھل جائے تا کہ سیف لینڈنگ ممکن ہو سکے ۔
> گلائیڈنگ کا حساب کِتاب کیا ہے ؟ تھرسٹ کے ختم ہونے کے بعد طیارے کی پرواز کی بُلندی ، آگے کا سفر اور نیچے گِرنے کا تناسب کیا ہے ؟ یہ تناسب 10:1 ہے یعنی بالفرض اگر طیارہ چھتیس ہزار فیٹ کی بُلندی پر ہو اور اُس کے دونوں انجن فیل ہو جائیں تو کیا خیال ہے کیا ہوگا ؟ طیارہ کِسی وزنی پتھر کی طرح زمین پر نہیں آن گِرے گا بلکہ ہر ایک میل نیچے آنے یعنی پرواز کی بُلندی کم ہونے پر وُہ سترہ میل 17 miles آگے فاصلہ طے کرسکے گا ۔اب چھتیس ہزار فیٹ تقریباً 7 میل بنتے ہیں تو اِس صُورت میں طیارہ 70 میل تک آگے فاصلہ طے کرسکتا ہے اور کسی قریبی ایئر پورٹ پر ہنگامی لینڈنگ کرسکتا ہے ۔
> مذکورہ طیارہ ایئر پورٹ کے قریب پُہنچ چُکا تھا جس کی بُلندی ہزار فیٹ سے لے کر دو ہزار فیٹ تک عُموماً ہوتی ہے یعنی یہاں سے دوہزار فیٹ کی بُلندی ہونے کی صُورت میں طیارہ زمین سے0.3787 میل اُونچائی پر تھا اور اس کی آگے گلائیڈنگ 3.787 میل یعنی چار میل کے قریب کم از کم بنتی ہے ۔ جبکہ ہزار فیٹ کی بُلندی کی صُورت میں طیارہ 1.8935 میل یعنی دو میل کے لگ بھگ آگے فاصلہ طے کرسکتا تھا زمین کو چُھو نے سے قبل ۔
> یاد رہے یہ ایک عُمومی فارمولا ہے جو بعض حالات میں ایک آدھ فیصد کم یا چند فیصد زیادہ بھی ممکن ہے ، ایکسیپشنز آر آلویز دیئر ۔
> جی جناب دونوں انجن فیل ہیں ، وقت کم ہے مزید ہائیٹ آپ لے نہیں سکتے تو طیارے کو ٹرن اراؤنڈ کروانا ایک مُہلک اور غلط فیصلہ ہے ۔ آپ کو چاہئیے کہ ایئر پورٹ کے رن وے پر بیلی لینڈنگ کروانے کا مُشکل لیکن ناگُزیر فیصلہ لیں ۔ یہ ایک مُشکل لیکن آخری حل ہے ۔ یہ اِتنا زیادہ خطرناک نہیں جِتنا سُننے میں لگتا ہے ۔ ممکن ہے رگڑ کی وجہ سے طیارے میں آگ لگ جائے لیکن ایئر پورٹس پر فائیر بریگیڈ کا عملہ ایسے حالات سے نمٹنے کے لیے ہر وقت تیار ہوتا ہے ۔ مُجھے قوی یقین ہے کہ تمام مُسافر بشمول عملہ بچ جاتے یا شاید چند افراد اپنی جان سے جاتے لیکن یہی آخری حل تھا ۔
> جناب اِس پوسٹ میں اِس سے زیادہ تکنیکی باتیں لِکھنا بے وقوفی ہوگی لیکن سوالات کُچھ اور بھی ہیں ۔
> ایئر بھوجا طیارہ ، ایئر بلیو طیارہ اور جُنید جمشید والا طیارہ کیوں گِرے ؟ آخرالذکر طیارہ ایک انجن پر اُڑایا گیا کہ چھوٹی فلائیٹ ہے ( پنڈی ) اسلام آباد پُہنچ جائے گا لیکن جو ہُوا سب کے سامنے ہے ۔ کاک پُل پنڈی گرنے والا بھوجا ایئر لائین کا طیارہ اُڑنے کے قابل ہی نہیں تھا جس کو زبردستی کُچھ دے دِلا کر فِٹنس سرٹیفیکیٹ اور اجازت نامہ دلوایا گیا ۔ ایئر بلیو کا مُجھے معلوم نہیں ۔ اِن تمام حالیہ برسوں میں ہونے والے حادثات کا ذمہ دار کون ہے ؟ کیا اُن کو محض سزائیں دینا ، معطل کرنا یا نوکری سے برخاست کردینا کافی ہے یا اُن پر باقاعدہ مقدمات چلنے چاہئیے تھے ؟ کیا مرنے والے جو عید کی خُوشیاں اپنے پیاروں کے ساتھ منانے آ رہے تھے اُن کے لیے “ اللہ پاک مغفرت کرے اور لواحقین کو صبرِ جمیل عطا فرمائے ۔ آمین “ کہہ دینا کافی ہے یا اُن کو اِنصاف بھی مِلنا چاہئیے ؟ یا اُن کو شہید کہہ کر فائل بند کردیں ؟
> تحقیقات کبھی پبلک تو کریں تاکہ ہمارے جیسے جُہلا کو بھی تو معلوم ہو کہ چل کیا رہا ہے ؟ آپ کو معلوم ہے یا نہیں لیکن جاتے جاتے ایک انوکھی بات بتاتا ہُوں ؛ ایک پی آئی اے کا طیارہ تھا جو کسی یورپی مُلک پُہنچا تو چیکنگ پر معلوم پڑا کہ انجن کو فیول دینے والے پائپ پر کِلپ کی جگہ تانبے کی تار کو بَل دے کر اُس کو انجیکٹر سے جوڑا گیا تھا یعنی اِتنی لمبی فلائیٹ کو ٹیکنیکل گراؤنڈ سٹاف نے “ جُگاڑ “ لگا کر بھیج دِیا ۔ وُہ طیارہ وہاں ہولڈ کر لِیا گیا ، پی آئی اے کو باقاعدہ لمبا چوڑا جُرمانہ بھی کِیا گیا ۔
> دِل میں شدید دُکھ ہے ، ایسا لگتا ہے جیسے میرا کوئی سگا عزیز اِس حادثے میں چلا گیا ہو ، میں یہ پوسٹ نہیں لِکھنا چاہ رہا تھا لیکن آج نہ لِکھتا تو کل تک ہماری قوم کو کوئی نیا “ شغل “ مِل چُکا ہوتا ۔ میرا حکومت سے سوال ہے کہ پی آئی اے جیسے سفید ہاتھی کو کب تک پالیں گے ؟ اگر پرائیوٹائیز نہیں کرنا تو عملہ کب کم کرو گے ؟ دُنیا میں فی جہاز سب سے زیادہ عملہ پی آئی اے کا ہے ۔ اِس میں کب تک ریٹائیرڈ ایئرمارشلز کو اور فضائیہ کے تھکے ہُوئے پائلٹس کو بھرتی کرتے رہو گے ؟ او بھائی کوئی تو جواب دو ، ریاستِ مدینہ کے والی آپ ہی بتاؤ کب اِنصاف ہوگا اور کب ہم عوام کو احساس ہوگا کہ عوام یتیم نہیں کہ اِن “ جُگاڑیوں “ کے ہتھے چڑھی رہے گی ۔
> 
> Haroon Malik



this guy probably does not know what happened to the maiden flight of airbus 320 in france,........he,s just horse shit.

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## Baghial

Mohsin A said:


> Great post Aspen.
> 
> It's obvious from the pictures of engine damage and what the survivor states in the TV interview that the plane landed on its engines temporarily before going around. Utterly tragic!




the tragic ,last 100 meters suddend decent,,and last 10/12 seconds would have cleared the buildings,residential area, the ill-fateded plane was in glidepath when last minute it revered to slight left, also,
otherwise he was clear for belly landing...


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## Aspen

Baghial said:


> the tragic ,last 100 meters suddend decent,,and last 10/12 seconds would have cleared the buildings,residential area, the ill-fateded plane was in glidepath when last minute it revered to slight left, also,
> otherwise he was clear for belly landing...



I wonder why he didn’t try to use the other runway?

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## Safriz

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1263960559185264640

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## Baghial

Aspen said:


> I wonder why he didn’t try to use the other runway?


 good question.


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## razgriz19

Good catch. That's called RAT Ram air turbine. If that's deployed it means he lost power from both engines


StormBreaker said:


> Where is the gearbox located in Turbofans ?

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## dBSPL

I'm so sad and shocked  Dear Pakistani brothers, please accept my most sincere condolences on our loss. May Allah give strength to those who lost their relatives.

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## SecretMission

Unfortunately it seems miss judgement is involved aswell from Pilot, On 1st attempt despite the landing gears was not working properly he touched the runway according to one of the survivor which means he possibly damaged the engines in 1st landing attempt and should not have opted to fly back in the air and also delayed to call a mayday for ATC.

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## Thamizh Puli

condolences

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## litman

AZ1 said:


> Then you must read this my friend. From a private Pilot.
> 
> بطور ایک پرائیوٹ پائلٹ کوشش کی ہے کہ عام قارئین کو بات سمجھ آ جائے اِسی لیے زیادہ ٹیکنیکل زبان سے پرہیز کِیا ہے ۔
> 
> معلوم نہیں کہ جب طیارہ لاہور سے کراچی پرواز کے لیے روانہ ہُوا تو اُس وقت اُس کے دونوں انجن ٹھیک حالت میں تھے یا ایک انجن ہی کام کر رہا تھا ۔ لینڈنگ گیئر کی کیا پوزیشن تھی کیا وُہ تکنیکی طور پر بالکل ٹھیک تھا ؟ عُموماً یہ ممکن نہیں ہوتا کہ دورانِ پرواز کِسی طیارے کے دونوں انجن بیک وقت یا تھوڑے وقفے کے بعد فیل ہو جائیں ۔ آج گِرنے والا طیارہ بھی دو انجن والا تھا لیکن ایسا نہیں ہے کہ کبھی طیارے کے دونوں انجن فیل نہ ہُوئے ہوں بہرحال اُس کی وجہ ہوتی ہے جیسے امریکن پائلٹ C.B.Sully کے کمرشل طیارے کی پرواز کے کُچھ لمحات بعد ہی پرندوں کے ٹکرانے سے دونوں انجن فیل ہوگئے اور اُس نے ایمرجینسی میں طیارے کو گلائیڈ کرتے ہُوئے دریائے ہڈسن میں اُتار دِیا اور تمام مسافر اور عملہ محفوظ رہے ۔ ایسی چند مثالیں اور بھی دی جاسکتی ہیں لیکن بات کرنے کا مقصد یہ تھا کہ بغیر انجن اور پاور کے بھی گلائیڈنگ اور لینڈنگ ممکن ہے ۔
> ابھی یہ معلوم نہیں کہ طیارے کے لینڈنگ گیئر پُوری طرح کُھل پا رہے تھے یا اُدھورے کُھل رہے تھے ۔ لینڈنگ کے لیے جہاز کے لینڈنگ گیئر پُوری طرح کُھلے ہونے چاہئیے ۔
> یہاں ہم یہ فرض کر لیتے ہیں کہ دونوں انجن فیل ہیں ، لینڈنگ گیئر پُوری طرح کُھل نہیں رہا تو اب پائلٹ کو کیا کرنا چاہئیے ؟
> پائلٹ کو مُناسب حالات میں اگر ممکن ہو تو طیارے کو ایک دو ٹرن اراؤنڈ چکر لگوانا بہتر رہتا ہے تا کہ اگر سسٹم کی کمانڈ میں کوئی مسئلہ آ رہا ہے یا سائیڈ ایرر ہے تو وُہ دُور ہوجائے اور لینڈنگ گیئر کُھل سکیں لیکن یہ تب ہی ممکن ہے جب جہاز کے دونوں یا ایک انجن کام کر رہا ہو ، آپ کے جہاز کے پاس تھرسٹ ہو یا پھر آپ کی رن وے اپروچ پر پرواز کی بُلندی تین سے چار ہزار فیٹ ہو ۔
> آج کراچی میں ہونے والے پی آئی اے کے طیارہ حادثے میں بُہت ساری چہ مگوئیاں جاری ہیں اور ظاہر ہے پاکستان میں ایئر بلیو حادثہ ہو ، بھوجا ایئر لائین حادثہ ہو یا جُنید جمشید طیارے کا سانحہ ہو کبھی بھی مکمل تحقیقات سامنے نہیں آئی ہیں خیر اس بات کو اِدھر روکتا ہُوں پہلے اپنی بات پُوری کر لُوں ۔
> اچھا طیارے کے دونوں انجن فیل ہوگئے ، لینڈنگ گیئر مکمل نہیں کُھل رہا تھا اسی لیے پائلٹ نے طیارے کو چکر لگوانے کا فیصلہ کِیا ۔ لوگ مُجھ ناچیز پر ہنسیں گے لیکن یہ ایک نہایت ہی جلدبازی کا فیصلہ تھا میں اِس کو بے وقوفانہ فیصلہ نہیں کہتا کہ پائلٹ کی کوشش رہی ہوگی کہ لینڈنگ گیئر مکمل کُھل جائے تا کہ سیف لینڈنگ ممکن ہو سکے ۔
> گلائیڈنگ کا حساب کِتاب کیا ہے ؟ تھرسٹ کے ختم ہونے کے بعد طیارے کی پرواز کی بُلندی ، آگے کا سفر اور نیچے گِرنے کا تناسب کیا ہے ؟ یہ تناسب 10:1 ہے یعنی بالفرض اگر طیارہ چھتیس ہزار فیٹ کی بُلندی پر ہو اور اُس کے دونوں انجن فیل ہو جائیں تو کیا خیال ہے کیا ہوگا ؟ طیارہ کِسی وزنی پتھر کی طرح زمین پر نہیں آن گِرے گا بلکہ ہر ایک میل نیچے آنے یعنی پرواز کی بُلندی کم ہونے پر وُہ سترہ میل 17 miles آگے فاصلہ طے کرسکے گا ۔اب چھتیس ہزار فیٹ تقریباً 7 میل بنتے ہیں تو اِس صُورت میں طیارہ 70 میل تک آگے فاصلہ طے کرسکتا ہے اور کسی قریبی ایئر پورٹ پر ہنگامی لینڈنگ کرسکتا ہے ۔
> مذکورہ طیارہ ایئر پورٹ کے قریب پُہنچ چُکا تھا جس کی بُلندی ہزار فیٹ سے لے کر دو ہزار فیٹ تک عُموماً ہوتی ہے یعنی یہاں سے دوہزار فیٹ کی بُلندی ہونے کی صُورت میں طیارہ زمین سے0.3787 میل اُونچائی پر تھا اور اس کی آگے گلائیڈنگ 3.787 میل یعنی چار میل کے قریب کم از کم بنتی ہے ۔ جبکہ ہزار فیٹ کی بُلندی کی صُورت میں طیارہ 1.8935 میل یعنی دو میل کے لگ بھگ آگے فاصلہ طے کرسکتا تھا زمین کو چُھو نے سے قبل ۔
> یاد رہے یہ ایک عُمومی فارمولا ہے جو بعض حالات میں ایک آدھ فیصد کم یا چند فیصد زیادہ بھی ممکن ہے ، ایکسیپشنز آر آلویز دیئر ۔
> جی جناب دونوں انجن فیل ہیں ، وقت کم ہے مزید ہائیٹ آپ لے نہیں سکتے تو طیارے کو ٹرن اراؤنڈ کروانا ایک مُہلک اور غلط فیصلہ ہے ۔ آپ کو چاہئیے کہ ایئر پورٹ کے رن وے پر بیلی لینڈنگ کروانے کا مُشکل لیکن ناگُزیر فیصلہ لیں ۔ یہ ایک مُشکل لیکن آخری حل ہے ۔ یہ اِتنا زیادہ خطرناک نہیں جِتنا سُننے میں لگتا ہے ۔ ممکن ہے رگڑ کی وجہ سے طیارے میں آگ لگ جائے لیکن ایئر پورٹس پر فائیر بریگیڈ کا عملہ ایسے حالات سے نمٹنے کے لیے ہر وقت تیار ہوتا ہے ۔ مُجھے قوی یقین ہے کہ تمام مُسافر بشمول عملہ بچ جاتے یا شاید چند افراد اپنی جان سے جاتے لیکن یہی آخری حل تھا ۔
> جناب اِس پوسٹ میں اِس سے زیادہ تکنیکی باتیں لِکھنا بے وقوفی ہوگی لیکن سوالات کُچھ اور بھی ہیں ۔
> ایئر بھوجا طیارہ ، ایئر بلیو طیارہ اور جُنید جمشید والا طیارہ کیوں گِرے ؟ آخرالذکر طیارہ ایک انجن پر اُڑایا گیا کہ چھوٹی فلائیٹ ہے ( پنڈی ) اسلام آباد پُہنچ جائے گا لیکن جو ہُوا سب کے سامنے ہے ۔ کاک پُل پنڈی گرنے والا بھوجا ایئر لائین کا طیارہ اُڑنے کے قابل ہی نہیں تھا جس کو زبردستی کُچھ دے دِلا کر فِٹنس سرٹیفیکیٹ اور اجازت نامہ دلوایا گیا ۔ ایئر بلیو کا مُجھے معلوم نہیں ۔ اِن تمام حالیہ برسوں میں ہونے والے حادثات کا ذمہ دار کون ہے ؟ کیا اُن کو محض سزائیں دینا ، معطل کرنا یا نوکری سے برخاست کردینا کافی ہے یا اُن پر باقاعدہ مقدمات چلنے چاہئیے تھے ؟ کیا مرنے والے جو عید کی خُوشیاں اپنے پیاروں کے ساتھ منانے آ رہے تھے اُن کے لیے “ اللہ پاک مغفرت کرے اور لواحقین کو صبرِ جمیل عطا فرمائے ۔ آمین “ کہہ دینا کافی ہے یا اُن کو اِنصاف بھی مِلنا چاہئیے ؟ یا اُن کو شہید کہہ کر فائل بند کردیں ؟
> تحقیقات کبھی پبلک تو کریں تاکہ ہمارے جیسے جُہلا کو بھی تو معلوم ہو کہ چل کیا رہا ہے ؟ آپ کو معلوم ہے یا نہیں لیکن جاتے جاتے ایک انوکھی بات بتاتا ہُوں ؛ ایک پی آئی اے کا طیارہ تھا جو کسی یورپی مُلک پُہنچا تو چیکنگ پر معلوم پڑا کہ انجن کو فیول دینے والے پائپ پر کِلپ کی جگہ تانبے کی تار کو بَل دے کر اُس کو انجیکٹر سے جوڑا گیا تھا یعنی اِتنی لمبی فلائیٹ کو ٹیکنیکل گراؤنڈ سٹاف نے “ جُگاڑ “ لگا کر بھیج دِیا ۔ وُہ طیارہ وہاں ہولڈ کر لِیا گیا ، پی آئی اے کو باقاعدہ لمبا چوڑا جُرمانہ بھی کِیا گیا ۔
> دِل میں شدید دُکھ ہے ، ایسا لگتا ہے جیسے میرا کوئی سگا عزیز اِس حادثے میں چلا گیا ہو ، میں یہ پوسٹ نہیں لِکھنا چاہ رہا تھا لیکن آج نہ لِکھتا تو کل تک ہماری قوم کو کوئی نیا “ شغل “ مِل چُکا ہوتا ۔ میرا حکومت سے سوال ہے کہ پی آئی اے جیسے سفید ہاتھی کو کب تک پالیں گے ؟ اگر پرائیوٹائیز نہیں کرنا تو عملہ کب کم کرو گے ؟ دُنیا میں فی جہاز سب سے زیادہ عملہ پی آئی اے کا ہے ۔ اِس میں کب تک ریٹائیرڈ ایئرمارشلز کو اور فضائیہ کے تھکے ہُوئے پائلٹس کو بھرتی کرتے رہو گے ؟ او بھائی کوئی تو جواب دو ، ریاستِ مدینہ کے والی آپ ہی بتاؤ کب اِنصاف ہوگا اور کب ہم عوام کو احساس ہوگا کہ عوام یتیم نہیں کہ اِن “ جُگاڑیوں “ کے ہتھے چڑھی رہے گی ۔
> 
> Haroon Malik


he made his intentions clear in the last para. he is seriously against PAF officers (serving/ retired) managing the affairs of PIA and he called them "thakkay hoay" pilot. off course he is forgetting that the golden period of PIA was when it was commanded by air marshal nur khan. the civilians in PIA generally dont like military officials in their institutes because they are generally relatively honest, straight forward people who dont go into dirty politics. i have heard from some retired paf pilots who started commercial flying that their civilian counter parts generally dont like them though they admitted that flying a fighter air craft and a commercial air craft is altogether different. 
PIA made some progress under arshad malik but then the courts jumped in and the progress was disrupted. i am sure many will take the advantage of this crash to malign arshad malik and will demand his resignation. remember pakistan has more traitors then patriots in every institute.

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## ali_raza

S.Y.A said:


> Happened a minute before landing, no water anywhere nearby, idiot planners of the city provided NOCs to builders in exchange for bribes and allowed construction so close to the runway. So no open space available for crash landing. I really doubt that any pilot, no matter how capable, could have done anything.
> Allah puchhay in sab haramkhoron say. Including PIA admin, engg, and karachi's building control authorities.


no where is the world i have seen a general public seen soo reckless 
people dont want to live near airport but here they r killing each other for a plot

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## AZ1

litman said:


> he made his intentions clear in the last para. he is seriously against PAF officers (serving/ retired) managing the affairs of PIA and he called them "thakkay hoay" pilot. off course he is forgetting that the golden period of PIA was when it was commanded by air marshal nur khan. the civilians in PIA generally dont like military officials in their institutes because they are generally relatively honest, straight forward people who dont go into dirty politics. i have heard from some retired paf pilots who started commercial flying that their civilian counter parts generally dont like them though they admitted that flying a fighter air craft and a commercial air craft is altogether different.
> PIA made some progress under arshad malik but then the courts jumped in and the progress was disrupted. i am sure many will take the advantage of this crash to malign arshad malik and will demand his resignation. remember pakistan has more traitors then patriots in every institute.


I know about the para but he also said about the worker jugaro. Pakistanis are known as jugaro in every field that is fact.

And Pia is full with political party people

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## aziqbal

it was so close to the runway


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## Safriz

razgriz19 said:


> Good catch. That's called RAT Ram air turbine. If that's deployed it means he lost power from both engines


And also no APU

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## Caprxl

One of the Survivors,





__ https://www.facebook.com/

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## Aspen

razgriz19 said:


> Good catch. That's called RAT Ram air turbine. If that's deployed it means he lost power from both engines



RAM Air Turbine means one of two possibilities:

1. Dual engine loss which powers hydraulics. Hydraulics control landing gear and flaps which both failed. If both engines are shut down, hydraulics don’t work. 
2. RAT was deployed as pilots were going through their emergency checklist after hydraulic failure. My guess for what happened is this: It is not dual engine failure that caused total hydraulic loss although engines may have failed for other reasons later on. What happened was that when plane hit the runway on 1st aborted landing, bottom of engines scraped the runway. Hydraulic fluid pipes are located on the bottom of the engine where the black skid marks are. Hydraulic fluid started leaking out of the bottom of the engine and caused landing gear and flaps issues. Pilots in their emergency checklist decided to deploy backup system called Ram Air Turbine to fix landing gear and flaps since Ram Air Turbine doesn’t need hydraulics to work. Engines are working fine, no fuel is leaking, it is only hydraulic fluid which is leaking out of the bottom of the engine where the black marks are. The white smoke in the picture with RAT deployed is probably hydraulic fluid leaking out of the bottom of the engine. Total hydraulic loss makes it extremely difficult to control flaps and hence pilots could not control airplane with cockpit inputs and plane crashed since pilots were not able to give it pitch up command without working hydraulics, causing the steep fall on the CCTV video. Plane did not run out of fuel and it explains why there was a huge fireball, since fireball can only happen with a lot of fuel. What it does not explain is why engine blades didn’t have any damage, since engine blades that are not damaged means engines were shut down when plane crashed. It is also difficult to tell whether the plane was falling because of loss of flap control from hydraulic loss or whether it was gliding because it ran out of fuel. If you lose all engine power, then your flight control changes into something called alternate law meaning your plane does not fly using normal physics laws. Hence high angle of attack when both engines have failed helps plane glide farther in alternate law. When you have no thrust, a shallower angle of attack loses altitude more rapidly, so the steeper the descent, the farther you glide (This only applies in alternate law when you lose all engine power, this does not apply to normal plane when engines are working). When you lose all thrust, a steeper angle of attack allows you to lose altitude and lift horizontally (distance) rather than vertically (altitude). If you lose altitude horizontally, then you are not really losing any altitude at all. But this really only works at high altitudes, not near the ground since you need a margin for recovery that you don’t have near the ground. The problem was if you lose altitude, you crash into residential area. If you lose speed, you crash into residential area. It’s lose-lose, in aviation, this is called coffin corner. You need high altitude to trade for more speed and you need high speed to trade for more altitude. If your landing at low speed and low altitude and you suddenly run out of fuel and have dual engine failure near the ground, you don’t have either high speed or high altitude to trade for the other, so you crash if you cannot gain more altitude or more speed. In a normal situation with working engines in conventional law, high angle of attack causes a stall. Even with dual engine failure, it could still be a stall. You cannot tell the difference just by looking at CCTV.

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## Aspen

Safriz said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1263960559185264640



Man that is heartbreaking [emoji22]


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## Taimoor Khan

Imran Khan said:


> this whole family was in the ill fated plane as per social media




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1263811928524230659

She was an IBA graduate, PHD from royal Holloway. my sister in law knew her. May Allah have mercy on departed souls.

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## undercover JIX



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## litman

ali_raza said:


> no where is the world i have seen a general public seen soo reckless
> people dont want to live near airport but here they r killing each other for a plot


the greatest enemy of pakistan are pakistanis themselves.

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## undercover JIX



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## litman

undercover JIX said:


>


sad to hear the last words of a shaheed. may all of them rest in paradise.



Taimoor Khan said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1263811928524230659
> 
> She was an IBA graduate, PHD from royal Holloway. my sister in law knew her. May Allah have mercy on departed souls.


OMG. its really saddening.

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## Nilgiri

razgriz19 said:


> Good catch. That's called RAT Ram air turbine. If that's deployed it means he lost power from both engines



Yup the final moments captured from the ground also very likely indicate this (dbl engine failure) because he was at max AoA trying everything to get to the runway, while losing altitude fast.


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## undercover JIX




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## ghazi52

Salute to Mr. Faisal Edhi and other social workers like him.
He has been competing with Carona virus recently and he was a pioneer/service probider in the plane crash yesterday

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## undercover JIX

another video just before crash.

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## GDP Adil Khan Niazi

Caprxl said:


> One of the Survivors,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/



Agar plane first-time runway per agaya tha aur 3 jhatkon kay baad thora chala bhe tha I'm wondering why did Pilot decided to fly that plane back again in the air?

No-one can beat death.
إِنَّا لِلّهِ وَإِنَّـا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعُونَ‎

My sincere condolences to the families of the departed souls and 2020 has been a difficult year for the whole world



Moreover, Some of the last memories of Shuhada's 

Crew Members: 






Someone's last snap status!







Maj Shehryar Fazal with his Wife Mahan Shehryar , 3 yr old son Reyaan and 1yr old daughter Illsa embraced Shahadat in plane crash Pk-8303.







Passenger Armaghan Ali













Second Lieutenant Hamza Yousaf After passing out he was going to Karachi to meet his parents 1st

What a tragedy it is heart is wrenching 






Captain Sajjad Gul:






Alhamdulillah, I've read This guy Ammar is safe though I'm not sure though I've read multiple tweets confirming this:









The Whole Family went to Allah SWT altogether 
















Passenger Farhan Qadir:









Google Earth View: How close it was from seeing their families and celebrating Eid together to leaving this Temporary World and reaching the real World.







A passenger of another flight coming to Karachi filmed plane crash site. The ill-fated PK8303 crashed into a residential area minutes before landing





__ https://www.facebook.com/

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## undercover JIX

Black box found/recovered. as per news.

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## Aspen

Is that hydraulic pipe on bottom of engine? If engine scraped hydraulic pipes on bottom of engine where black skid marks are during aborted landing, then white smoke in picture was hydraulic fluid leaking out of engine. Total loss of hydraulic failure caused problems with flaps control causing steep descent and landing gear issues. If the oil sumps are also on the bottom of the engine, then oil could also have leaked out as well. All the oil leaking out could have shut down both engines without the plane running out of fuel. Plane had plenty of fuel when it crashed hence the fireball on impact.

The first thing they should do is check the hydraulic fluid and oil tanks. If they are empty, that is why the plane crashed.


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## Blacklight

ghazi52 said:


> Salute to Mr. Faisal Edhi and other social workers like him.
> He has been competing with Carona virus recently and he was a pioneer/service probider in the plane crash yesterday


Zafar Abbas of Jafaria Disaster Cell -JDC, seen here on the left, in the green shirt with Faisal Edhi. They have been doing good work as well.

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## litman

ghazi52 said:


> Salute to Mr. Faisal Edhi and other social workers like him.
> He has been competing with Carona virus recently and he was a pioneer/service probider in the plane crash yesterday


the grooming and halal rizq of the parents are always reflected in their children. he is indeed a "sadqa jariya" for his father.

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

You guys will learn that it was a possibly pilot error for not landing on the first landing opportunity---.

Too much damage occurred in the first missed landings---.

This will be considered the strangest aborted first landing---.

Pilot error---.

Was the PILOT FASTING---just like the Air Blue Pilot---who slammed into the mountain side of Islamabad.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Inna Lillahi ve Inna Ilahi Rajeun....


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## loanranger

Biggest hint is both the engines scrapping the runway.
They did that because the landing gear failed. 
Is it possible the pilot(s) failed to appreciate the warnings when the gear did not open properly.Thus they went to land un aware of the situation.Refer to above video on this.
I won't go into coulda woulda shoulda.
Damage has been done.
Just learn what happened to give all future pilots a thorough briefing.

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## Aspen

loanranger said:


> Biggest hint is both the engines scrapping the runway.
> They did that because the landing gear failed.
> Is it possible the pilot(s) failed to appreciate the warnings when the gear did not open properly.Thus they went to land un aware of the situation.Refer to above video on this.
> I won't go into coulda woulda shoulda.
> Damage has been done.
> Just learn what happened to give all future pilots a thorough briefing.



The thing that I still can’t figure out is if the landing gear failed before 1st landing. Because you can explain landing gear problems after aborted landing since engine scraping runway causing hydraulic fluid to leak out which would cause landing gear to stop working later.

But if landing gear wasn’t working before 1st attempt, then that is a mystery since the plane’s engine did not yet scrape the runway when it was coming for 1st attempt. That happened after the pilot already reported landing gear issues. So the hydraulic failure caused by scraping the engine made the problem worse but didn’t start the original problem.


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## Major Sam

My heart is still crying for the martyred ones. May ALLAH accept them in jannah. Its time to pray ask forgives from ALLAH and may ALLAH keep us and our country under his blessings Nd bring us out from all current era disasters.

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## alibaz

AZ1 said:


> Then you must read this my friend. From a private Pilot.
> 
> بطور ایک پرائیوٹ پائلٹ کوشش کی ہے کہ عام قارئین کو بات سمجھ آ جائے اِسی لیے زیادہ ٹیکنیکل زبان سے پرہیز کِیا ہے ۔
> 
> معلوم نہیں کہ جب طیارہ لاہور سے کراچی پرواز کے لیے روانہ ہُوا تو اُس وقت اُس کے دونوں انجن ٹھیک حالت میں تھے یا ایک انجن ہی کام کر رہا تھا ۔ لینڈنگ گیئر کی کیا پوزیشن تھی کیا وُہ تکنیکی طور پر بالکل ٹھیک تھا ؟ عُموماً یہ ممکن نہیں ہوتا کہ دورانِ پرواز کِسی طیارے کے دونوں انجن بیک وقت یا تھوڑے وقفے کے بعد فیل ہو جائیں ۔ آج گِرنے والا طیارہ بھی دو انجن والا تھا لیکن ایسا نہیں ہے کہ کبھی طیارے کے دونوں انجن فیل نہ ہُوئے ہوں بہرحال اُس کی وجہ ہوتی ہے جیسے امریکن پائلٹ C.B.Sully کے کمرشل طیارے کی پرواز کے کُچھ لمحات بعد ہی پرندوں کے ٹکرانے سے دونوں انجن فیل ہوگئے اور اُس نے ایمرجینسی میں طیارے کو گلائیڈ کرتے ہُوئے دریائے ہڈسن میں اُتار دِیا اور تمام مسافر اور عملہ محفوظ رہے ۔ ایسی چند مثالیں اور بھی دی جاسکتی ہیں لیکن بات کرنے کا مقصد یہ تھا کہ بغیر انجن اور پاور کے بھی گلائیڈنگ اور لینڈنگ ممکن ہے ۔
> ابھی یہ معلوم نہیں کہ طیارے کے لینڈنگ گیئر پُوری طرح کُھل پا رہے تھے یا اُدھورے کُھل رہے تھے ۔ لینڈنگ کے لیے جہاز کے لینڈنگ گیئر پُوری طرح کُھلے ہونے چاہئیے ۔
> یہاں ہم یہ فرض کر لیتے ہیں کہ دونوں انجن فیل ہیں ، لینڈنگ گیئر پُوری طرح کُھل نہیں رہا تو اب پائلٹ کو کیا کرنا چاہئیے ؟
> پائلٹ کو مُناسب حالات میں اگر ممکن ہو تو طیارے کو ایک دو ٹرن اراؤنڈ چکر لگوانا بہتر رہتا ہے تا کہ اگر سسٹم کی کمانڈ میں کوئی مسئلہ آ رہا ہے یا سائیڈ ایرر ہے تو وُہ دُور ہوجائے اور لینڈنگ گیئر کُھل سکیں لیکن یہ تب ہی ممکن ہے جب جہاز کے دونوں یا ایک انجن کام کر رہا ہو ، آپ کے جہاز کے پاس تھرسٹ ہو یا پھر آپ کی رن وے اپروچ پر پرواز کی بُلندی تین سے چار ہزار فیٹ ہو ۔
> آج کراچی میں ہونے والے پی آئی اے کے طیارہ حادثے میں بُہت ساری چہ مگوئیاں جاری ہیں اور ظاہر ہے پاکستان میں ایئر بلیو حادثہ ہو ، بھوجا ایئر لائین حادثہ ہو یا جُنید جمشید طیارے کا سانحہ ہو کبھی بھی مکمل تحقیقات سامنے نہیں آئی ہیں خیر اس بات کو اِدھر روکتا ہُوں پہلے اپنی بات پُوری کر لُوں ۔
> اچھا طیارے کے دونوں انجن فیل ہوگئے ، لینڈنگ گیئر مکمل نہیں کُھل رہا تھا اسی لیے پائلٹ نے طیارے کو چکر لگوانے کا فیصلہ کِیا ۔ لوگ مُجھ ناچیز پر ہنسیں گے لیکن یہ ایک نہایت ہی جلدبازی کا فیصلہ تھا میں اِس کو بے وقوفانہ فیصلہ نہیں کہتا کہ پائلٹ کی کوشش رہی ہوگی کہ لینڈنگ گیئر مکمل کُھل جائے تا کہ سیف لینڈنگ ممکن ہو سکے ۔
> گلائیڈنگ کا حساب کِتاب کیا ہے ؟ تھرسٹ کے ختم ہونے کے بعد طیارے کی پرواز کی بُلندی ، آگے کا سفر اور نیچے گِرنے کا تناسب کیا ہے ؟ یہ تناسب 10:1 ہے یعنی بالفرض اگر طیارہ چھتیس ہزار فیٹ کی بُلندی پر ہو اور اُس کے دونوں انجن فیل ہو جائیں تو کیا خیال ہے کیا ہوگا ؟ طیارہ کِسی وزنی پتھر کی طرح زمین پر نہیں آن گِرے گا بلکہ ہر ایک میل نیچے آنے یعنی پرواز کی بُلندی کم ہونے پر وُہ سترہ میل 17 miles آگے فاصلہ طے کرسکے گا ۔اب چھتیس ہزار فیٹ تقریباً 7 میل بنتے ہیں تو اِس صُورت میں طیارہ 70 میل تک آگے فاصلہ طے کرسکتا ہے اور کسی قریبی ایئر پورٹ پر ہنگامی لینڈنگ کرسکتا ہے ۔
> مذکورہ طیارہ ایئر پورٹ کے قریب پُہنچ چُکا تھا جس کی بُلندی ہزار فیٹ سے لے کر دو ہزار فیٹ تک عُموماً ہوتی ہے یعنی یہاں سے دوہزار فیٹ کی بُلندی ہونے کی صُورت میں طیارہ زمین سے0.3787 میل اُونچائی پر تھا اور اس کی آگے گلائیڈنگ 3.787 میل یعنی چار میل کے قریب کم از کم بنتی ہے ۔ جبکہ ہزار فیٹ کی بُلندی کی صُورت میں طیارہ 1.8935 میل یعنی دو میل کے لگ بھگ آگے فاصلہ طے کرسکتا تھا زمین کو چُھو نے سے قبل ۔
> یاد رہے یہ ایک عُمومی فارمولا ہے جو بعض حالات میں ایک آدھ فیصد کم یا چند فیصد زیادہ بھی ممکن ہے ، ایکسیپشنز آر آلویز دیئر ۔
> جی جناب دونوں انجن فیل ہیں ، وقت کم ہے مزید ہائیٹ آپ لے نہیں سکتے تو طیارے کو ٹرن اراؤنڈ کروانا ایک مُہلک اور غلط فیصلہ ہے ۔ آپ کو چاہئیے کہ ایئر پورٹ کے رن وے پر بیلی لینڈنگ کروانے کا مُشکل لیکن ناگُزیر فیصلہ لیں ۔ یہ ایک مُشکل لیکن آخری حل ہے ۔ یہ اِتنا زیادہ خطرناک نہیں جِتنا سُننے میں لگتا ہے ۔ ممکن ہے رگڑ کی وجہ سے طیارے میں آگ لگ جائے لیکن ایئر پورٹس پر فائیر بریگیڈ کا عملہ ایسے حالات سے نمٹنے کے لیے ہر وقت تیار ہوتا ہے ۔ مُجھے قوی یقین ہے کہ تمام مُسافر بشمول عملہ بچ جاتے یا شاید چند افراد اپنی جان سے جاتے لیکن یہی آخری حل تھا ۔
> جناب اِس پوسٹ میں اِس سے زیادہ تکنیکی باتیں لِکھنا بے وقوفی ہوگی لیکن سوالات کُچھ اور بھی ہیں ۔
> ایئر بھوجا طیارہ ، ایئر بلیو طیارہ اور جُنید جمشید والا طیارہ کیوں گِرے ؟ آخرالذکر طیارہ ایک انجن پر اُڑایا گیا کہ چھوٹی فلائیٹ ہے ( پنڈی ) اسلام آباد پُہنچ جائے گا لیکن جو ہُوا سب کے سامنے ہے ۔ کاک پُل پنڈی گرنے والا بھوجا ایئر لائین کا طیارہ اُڑنے کے قابل ہی نہیں تھا جس کو زبردستی کُچھ دے دِلا کر فِٹنس سرٹیفیکیٹ اور اجازت نامہ دلوایا گیا ۔ ایئر بلیو کا مُجھے معلوم نہیں ۔ اِن تمام حالیہ برسوں میں ہونے والے حادثات کا ذمہ دار کون ہے ؟ کیا اُن کو محض سزائیں دینا ، معطل کرنا یا نوکری سے برخاست کردینا کافی ہے یا اُن پر باقاعدہ مقدمات چلنے چاہئیے تھے ؟ کیا مرنے والے جو عید کی خُوشیاں اپنے پیاروں کے ساتھ منانے آ رہے تھے اُن کے لیے “ اللہ پاک مغفرت کرے اور لواحقین کو صبرِ جمیل عطا فرمائے ۔ آمین “ کہہ دینا کافی ہے یا اُن کو اِنصاف بھی مِلنا چاہئیے ؟ یا اُن کو شہید کہہ کر فائل بند کردیں ؟
> تحقیقات کبھی پبلک تو کریں تاکہ ہمارے جیسے جُہلا کو بھی تو معلوم ہو کہ چل کیا رہا ہے ؟ آپ کو معلوم ہے یا نہیں لیکن جاتے جاتے ایک انوکھی بات بتاتا ہُوں ؛ ایک پی آئی اے کا طیارہ تھا جو کسی یورپی مُلک پُہنچا تو چیکنگ پر معلوم پڑا کہ انجن کو فیول دینے والے پائپ پر کِلپ کی جگہ تانبے کی تار کو بَل دے کر اُس کو انجیکٹر سے جوڑا گیا تھا یعنی اِتنی لمبی فلائیٹ کو ٹیکنیکل گراؤنڈ سٹاف نے “ جُگاڑ “ لگا کر بھیج دِیا ۔ وُہ طیارہ وہاں ہولڈ کر لِیا گیا ، پی آئی اے کو باقاعدہ لمبا چوڑا جُرمانہ بھی کِیا گیا ۔
> دِل میں شدید دُکھ ہے ، ایسا لگتا ہے جیسے میرا کوئی سگا عزیز اِس حادثے میں چلا گیا ہو ، میں یہ پوسٹ نہیں لِکھنا چاہ رہا تھا لیکن آج نہ لِکھتا تو کل تک ہماری قوم کو کوئی نیا “ شغل “ مِل چُکا ہوتا ۔ میرا حکومت سے سوال ہے کہ پی آئی اے جیسے سفید ہاتھی کو کب تک پالیں گے ؟ اگر پرائیوٹائیز نہیں کرنا تو عملہ کب کم کرو گے ؟ دُنیا میں فی جہاز سب سے زیادہ عملہ پی آئی اے کا ہے ۔ اِس میں کب تک ریٹائیرڈ ایئرمارشلز کو اور فضائیہ کے تھکے ہُوئے پائلٹس کو بھرتی کرتے رہو گے ؟ او بھائی کوئی تو جواب دو ، ریاستِ مدینہ کے والی آپ ہی بتاؤ کب اِنصاف ہوگا اور کب ہم عوام کو احساس ہوگا کہ عوام یتیم نہیں کہ اِن “ جُگاڑیوں “ کے ہتھے چڑھی رہے گی ۔
> 
> Haroon Malik



why doesn't he know about the reason of Airblue. If there is such a serious issue regarding fitness of aircraft then why palpa didn't raise its voice. They simply cripple airline if there is some issue regarding their salaries and privileges. This post smells some particular reason.

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## Mohsin A

1. Pilot lands. For whatever reason the Gear fails or was not deployed causing the engines to scrap the runway.
2. Pilot engages full throttle gains altitude and goes round.
3. During go around the damage to the engine / hydraulics increasingly takes effect and thus deteriorated the ability for the pilot to control the plane.
4. On second attempt, the plane crashes.


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## Mumm-Ra

PakSword said:


> OK guys, I have lost a few distant relatives in this crash. Husband, wife and 2 children.
> 
> Inna lillah e wa inna ilaihe raji'un.



Inna lillah e wa inna ilaihe raji'un.
Sorry for your loss


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## appliedfor

PakSword said:


> People who were saying that the plane touched the ground and then again took-off, looks like they were right:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1263916225526206466
> @Counter-Errorist @Safriz @PanzerKiel


If its touch the ground on first attempt then its easy to understand from runway CCTV footage to check if engines touched the grounds too or not, what is the reason of both engines failure...etc


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## xeuss

Aspen said:


> The thing that I still can’t figure out is if the landing gear failed before 1st landing. Because you can explain landing gear problems after aborted landing since engine scraping runway causing hydraulic fluid to leak out which would cause landing gear to stop working later.
> 
> But if landing gear wasn’t working before 1st attempt, then that is a mystery since the plane’s engine did not yet scrape the runway when it was coming for 1st attempt. That happened after the pilot already reported landing gear issues. So the hydraulic failure caused by scraping the engine made the problem worse but didn’t start the original problem.



Nose Landing Gear was not down and locked. There are several reasons for that. After the first landing, pilot figured out that airplane nose was going down, so pulled up and elected to do a go around. Unfortunately, loss of hydraulics meant he had to deploy RAT.


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## StormBreaker

One of my distant friend’s family member has also passed away in the crash.

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## Aspen

Alright guys here is my revised theory:

Plane comes in for 1st landing attempt
Landing gear extends down but does not fully lock
Pilots have no idea that gear is faulty
When plane lands, gear is unstable, engines hit ground
Engines scrape ground causing black skid marks
Pilot immediately goes around
Plane goes around for 2nd landing attempt
Plane circles in air for 7 minutes between landings
During these 7 minutes, hydraulic fluid and oil is rapidly leaking out from pipes that were scraped on bottom of engine. Fuel is NOT leaking out.
Total loss of hydraulic failure after all hydraulic fluid leaks out from ruptured hydraulic pipes on bottom of scraped engine, flaps stop working and landing gear issues get worse. White smoke in PSPK picture is hydraulic fluid leaking out of bottom of the scraped engine.
Ram Air Turbine or manual gear drop deployed to solve landing gear issue.
All oil rapidly leaks out from oil sumps on bottom of scraped engine, both engines shut down without oil, plane now becomes glider with no thrust. Fan blades in engine are intact which means engines were not running when plane crashed.
Since both engines stop working, plane rapidly loses altitude during approach and crashes.
Plane was only leaking hydraulic fluid and oil, not fuel so there is plenty of fuel left when plane crashes causing massive fireball.


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## Safriz

This morning.
I see one engine


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## zara ahmad

Inna lillah e wa inna ilaihe raji'un.


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## Yaseen1

experts in western media like cnn are saying that this accident can be easily avoided if pilot used proper strategy

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## SecretMission

Yaseen1 said:


> experts in western media like cnn are saying that this accident can be easily avoided if pilot used proper strategy


It seems ATC at the end also made changes and asked the pilot to reduce its altitude but again Pilot should not have gone up in the air after touching engines on runway

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## Yaseen1

pilot was not trained to deal in panic situations and he got afraid after small difficulty in landing while touching on runway,even if this plane crashed on runway less people would have died and also houses would not not destroyed which resulted in loss of life of residents,this should be clear lesson for all pilots in future


SecretMission said:


> It seems ATC at the end also made changes and asked the pilot to reduce its altitude but again Pilot should not have gone up in the air after touching engines on runway


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## Destranator

Inna Lillahi Wa Inna Ilaihi Rajiun.

Maybe one lesson we can learn from this mishap is to not attempt a second take off with a malfunctioning/damaged aircraft under any circumstances.
In hindsight, it seems that landing on the nose in the first attempt might have incurred less casualties despite the risk of the air frame breaking apart causing rapid depressurisation.

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## POPEYE-Sailor

__ https://www.facebook.com/


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## SecretMission

Yaseen1 said:


> pilot was not trained to deal in panic situations and he got afraid after small difficulty in landing while touching on runway,even if this plane crashed on runway less people would have died and also houses would not not destroyed which resulted in loss of life of residents,this should be clear lesson for all pilots in future


 Pilot was fully trained but I think he took things very lightly/calmly or it was not his best day. At start it was his mistake to go back in air and other things went against him but I think he would have made it to runway if ATC didn't instructed him to reduce the altitude nearly 50% and it seems he reduced it only 30% or else it would be not near runway aswell.


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## Yaseen1

i think it will also have very bad impact on reputation of PIA,already they are not allowed to fly to u.s,now it seems europe and many other countries will also ban them due to safety issues as no one will want airplane to cause damage to their public houses


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## aakalim

We don't know what actually happened, but from the information we have right now, seems like it was a pilot error. They should not have landed the first time if they knew that the landing gear was not deploying properly. I am sure the aircraft would have given them some kind of warning that the gear is not deployed. Should have a least informed the flight control that there is problem with the gear and then attempted a belly landing. 

Even if we think they had no idea about the faulty landing gear, they should have completed the belly landing instead of pulling up the aircraft. By the time they pulled up, the damage had been done to the engines. But again we don't know what the actual circumstances were inside the cockpit. It probably was a instinctive split second decision to pull up. Unfortunately, it proved to be fatal. May all those who lost their lives rest in peace.

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## Safriz

SecretMission said:


> Pilot was fully trained but I think he took things very lightly/calmly or it was not his best day. At start it was his mistake to go back in air and other things went against him but I think he would have made it to runway if ATC didn't instructed him to reduce the altitude nearly 50% and it seems he reduced it only 30% or else it would be not near runway aswell.


In an emergency when things are going wrong, there's no time to think and go through all options, and people do what seems right at the moment..
I have many years of service on ships and I had a few accidents and near misses during my watch.
What I did at the time seemed right but later , after it was over , I myself could see many things wrong with my own actions and I could do many things much better. But what I did was the things I could think of at that moment.
And I am on about ships which move far slower than aeroplane.
On a plane the time they get to think and reach a decision is in seconds or a few minutes at best.

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## Yaseen1

that is reason training and education requirements are more strict for pilots flying airplane so only those people become eligible to this job who have quality of taking right decisions in less time but if there is compromise on merit then quality of pilots will decline and result in more accidents.It is not much difficult,there are limited number of scenarios which can result when airplane has disorder and landing gear problem is common ,if pilot had clear instructions by his trainers or seniors about what good decision he should take when this problem occur and told this earlier then it is not much difficult as he was not flying fighterjet with supersonic speed


Safriz said:


> In an emergency when things are going wrong, there's no time to think and go through all options, and people do what seems right at the moment..
> I have many years of service on ships and I had a few accidents and near misses during my watch.
> What I did at the time seemed right but later , after it was over , I myself could see many things wrong with my own actions and I could do many things much better. But what I did was the things I could think of at that moment.
> And I am on about ships which move far slower than aeroplane.
> On a plane the time they get to think and reach a decision is in seconds or a few minutes at best.


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## OverandOut

Aspen said:


> Alright guys here is my revised theory:
> 
> Plane comes in for 1st landing attempt
> Landing gear extends down but does not fully lock
> Pilots have no idea that gear is faulty
> When plane lands, gear is unstable, engines hit ground
> Engines scrape ground causing black skid marks
> Pilot immediately goes around
> Plane goes around for 2nd landing attempt
> Plane circles in air for 7 minutes between landings
> During these 7 minutes, hydraulic fluid and oil is rapidly leaking out from pipes that were scraped on bottom of engine. Fuel is NOT leaking out.
> Total loss of hydraulic failure after all hydraulic fluid leaks out from ruptured hydraulic pipes on bottom of scraped engine, flaps stop working and landing gear issues get worse. White smoke in PSPK picture is hydraulic fluid leaking out of bottom of the scraped engine.
> Ram Air Turbine or manual gear drop deployed to solve landing gear issue.
> All oil rapidly leaks out from oil sumps on bottom of scraped engine, both engines shut down without oil, plane now becomes glider with no thrust. Fan blades in engine are intact which means engines were not running when plane crashed.
> Since both engines stop working, plane rapidly loses altitude during approach and crashes.
> Plane was only leaking hydraulic fluid and oil, not fuel so there is plenty of fuel left when plane crashes causing massive fireball.


Asalaamoalikum, Hope you’re all going well and staying safe.




There is a video (Link posted above) that tells you that the RAT is only for electrical and electronics, the landing gear is hydraulic. So RAT wasn’t for the landing gear but to power electronics and electrical systems (this point will add up near the end of my post so please bare with me).
Another point raised in the video; from the control tower and pilot comms is that you can clearly hear the ding ding ding sound for landing gear issue. 

Now your assessment seems most rational.

I’m not an aviation engineer but do work in naval and have systems engineering knowledge. We have backups upon backups upon backups, aviation is known to be even more quality driven. If the landing gear, say did operate but did not lock then I would have believed there existed a feedback signal for landing gear local indication? 

Anyway, in case the gear didn’t lock, the pilot just can’t know if the gear is down because you can’t see the gears, simple. Now assume the wasn’t sure then could he not have asked one of the crew to check? I know crew gets pissed at peeps who walk up and down during approach but this is safety issue. If not then the pilot couldn’t have known if the gear was down or what and only way to know is when you hear a bang, in this case something else which would be hitting the tarmac.
But if you do realise the plane has hit the tarmac and the nose is dipping then shouldn’t the pilot know that if the nose is dipping then that most probably means the plane is pivoting at a fulcrum .... which would be the engines and if you are down then stay down because chances are you’ve probably damaged your engines. If you damaged your engines then you won’t have any power for electrical or electronics, thus the RAT. 

These are my two bits , sure I can be wrong. 
Finally, May I also say that no one should blame the pilot or say otherwise. When you are in the field you do as you are trained so training is where one should be brutally critical. I nor anyone should blame the pilot as I’m sure he did his level best and in this case it just wasn’t enough. Sure we all can be at fault but never doubt ones intention as only Allah knows what we hide what we reveal. I would like believe the pilot did his level best to save all, he did his best and saved two, rather Allah did indeed. 

We all have to return to Allah one day.May Allah ease our pain and suffering and give us sabr so that we may be successful in this late and after amen. 

Inna lillahi wa inna ilaihi rajioon.

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## Safriz

Thorough Pro said:


> That is most stupid post ever. You know what is belly landing? You can't abort a belly landing with engines already scraping the runway. you can always abort an attempted landing meaning Plane did not cam in contact with the ground, hence no scrapped engine cowling.


A surviving Passenger said the plane landed then took off and they felt some unusual shaking.
Also how do you explain this?
Engine cowling clearly broken on the bottom and oil leakage.

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## Thorough Pro

That is very strange, once you touch down without landing gear and damage your engines, you must never take off again



Safriz said:


> A surviving Passenger said the plane landed then took off and they felt some unusual shaking.
> Also how do you explain this?
> Engine cowling clearly broken on the bottom and oil leakage.
> View attachment 634930

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## TheNoob

Safriz said:


> A surviving Passenger said the plane landed then took off and they felt some unusual shaking.
> Also how do you explain this?
> Engine cowling clearly broken on the bottom and oil leakage.
> View attachment 634930



Theses seem to be scrap-off. 
It didn't entirely land on its weight, so it was able to take off.


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## Safriz

Thorough Pro said:


> That is very strange, once you touch down without landing gear you must never take off again


It is strange and unusual but that seems to be the only explanation of the type of engine damage seen in the picture.
On second approach the landing gears were open, but the plane had no functional engine.


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## Thorough Pro

I stand corrected. This is very rare indeed, never heard about any such instance ever before.



Safriz said:


> A surviving Passenger said the plane landed then took off and they felt some unusual shaking.
> Also how do you explain this?
> Engine cowling clearly broken on the bottom and oil leakage.
> View attachment 634930


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## PakFactor

PakSword said:


> OK guys, I have lost a few distant relatives in this crash. Husband, wife and 2 children.
> 
> Inna lillah e wa inna ilaihe raji'un.



@PakSword @PanzerKiel 

My condolences brothers, today is truly a very sad day in Pakistan, may Allah grant theM Jannah in the here after and Allah give patience to the rest of the family.

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## aakalim

TheNoob said:


> Theses seem to be scrap-off.
> It didn't entirely land on its weight, so it was able to take off.



It is possible that the decision to "go around" was taken before the engines hit the ground. This all could have happened so fast that the pilot had no time to adjust and by the time he realized that engines have been damaged, he had already pulled up.

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## loanranger

Aspen said:


> The thing that I still can’t figure out is if the landing gear failed before 1st landing. Because you can explain landing gear problems after aborted landing since engine scraping runway causing hydraulic fluid to leak out which would cause landing gear to stop working later.
> 
> But if landing gear wasn’t working before 1st attempt, then that is a mystery since the plane’s engine did not yet scrape the runway when it was coming for 1st attempt. That happened after the pilot already reported landing gear issues. So the hydraulic failure caused by scraping the engine made the problem worse but didn’t start the original problem.


In my opinion...
The landing gear collapsed on impact thus causing scraping just after the first attempt.
Subsequently various problems with hydraulics came about.
Lets wait for the report to come out. Only that will tell.


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## TheNoob

aakalim said:


> It is possible that the decision to "go around" was taken before the engines hit the ground. This all could have happened so fast that the pilot had no time to adjust and by the time he realized that engines have been damaged, he had already pulled up.



Exactly. 
So many things we don't know yet.

This is the best scenario.


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## JonAsad

And the airport did not have the CCTV, recording the inbound and outbound planes?

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## Aspen

TheNoob said:


> Exactly.
> So many things we don't know yet.
> 
> This is the best scenario.



I still think this is probably it



Aspen said:


> Alright guys here is my revised theory:
> 
> Plane comes in for 1st landing attempt
> Landing gear extends down but does not fully lock
> Pilots have no idea that gear is faulty
> When plane lands, gear is unstable, engines hit ground
> Engines scrape ground causing black skid marks
> Pilot immediately goes around
> Plane goes around for 2nd landing attempt
> Plane circles in air for 7 minutes between landings
> During these 7 minutes, hydraulic fluid and oil is rapidly leaking out from pipes that were scraped on bottom of engine. Fuel is NOT leaking out.
> Total loss of hydraulic failure after all hydraulic fluid leaks out from ruptured hydraulic pipes on bottom of scraped engine, flaps stop working and landing gear issues get worse. White smoke in PSPK picture is hydraulic fluid leaking out of bottom of the scraped engine.
> Ram Air Turbine or manual gear drop deployed to solve landing gear issue.
> All oil rapidly leaks out from oil sumps on bottom of scraped engine, both engines shut down without oil, plane now becomes glider with no thrust. Fan blades in engine are intact which means engines were not running when plane crashed.
> Since both engines stop working, plane rapidly loses altitude during approach and crashes.
> Plane was only leaking hydraulic fluid and oil, not fuel so there is plenty of fuel left when plane crashes causing massive fireball.


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## aakalim

JonAsad said:


> And the airport did not have the CCTV, recording the inbound and outbound planes?



They probably have it but i doubt they will release it to the public before they complete the investigation.


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## Safriz



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## Yaseen1



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## Bil

Yaseen1 said:


>



I was wondering the same, why this couldnt have happened?

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## Aspen

Yaseen1 said:


>



Yeah but these guys knew their gear was stuck because they flew past ATC tower and ATC told them it did not come down at all.

PIA pilots probably had gear down but it didn't lock because of technical or maintenance issue, so you really don't know what will happen until you hit the ground. There's really no way to tell if gear is locked just by looking at it, you kind of have to trust it when its down. I'm surprised KHI ATC didn't say anything to pilots about their plane scraping the ground. Maybe they didn't notice?


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## Yaseen1

there should be cameras on outside body of plane which provide video or image to pilot inside about whether wheels for landing are properly functioning and moved out in proper manner


Aspen said:


> Yeah but these guys knew their gear was stuck because they flew past ATC tower and ATC told them it did not come down at all.
> 
> PIA pilots probably had gear down but it didn't lock because of technical or maintenance issue, so you really don't know what will happen until you hit the ground. There's really no way to tell if gear is locked just by looking at it, you kind of have to trust it when its down. I'm surprised KHI ATC didn't say anything to pilots about their plane scraping the ground. Maybe they didn't notice?


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## aakalim

Aspen said:


> Yeah but these guys knew their gear was stuck because they flew past ATC tower and ATC told them it did not come down at all.
> 
> PIA pilots probably had gear down but it didn't lock because of technical or maintenance issue, so you really don't know what will happen until you hit the ground. There's really no way to tell if gear is locked just by looking at it, you kind of have to trust it when its down. I'm surprised KHI ATC didn't say anything to pilots about their plane scraping the ground. Maybe they didn't notice?



Doesn't the aircraft give any warning that the gear did not lock? There has to be some warning or an alarm.

Also, the ATC did ask the pilot if they wanted to belly land, suggesting they did notice them trying to belly land the first time.

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## Aspen

aakalim said:


> Doesn't the aircraft give any warning that the gear did not lock? There has to be some warning or an alarm.
> 
> Also, the ATC did ask the pilot if they wanted to belly land, suggesting they did notice them trying to belly land the first time.



There's a generic warning about landing gear but it doesn't tell you the difference between stuck and not locked.

If gear gets stuck and doesn't come down at all or gear does come down but doesn't lock, it will be the same warning, no way to tell the difference.

Gear that comes down but isn't locked is worse because it looks like like normal but in reality its not safe to land and that's what happened on this flight.

Gear that gets stuck is actually better because you know for sure that it's stuck since ATC can tell you from the outside if its not coming down and you don't have to guess what will happen when you land since you know for sure it will be a belly landing.

With gear that doesn't lock, you don't know if its a false warning or if the gear really isn't locked since it looks normal from outside. If you treat it like a normal landing and gear unlocks and collapses, then it becomes a belly landing and hard impact. If you're not expecting it, this can surprise the pilot and cause a go around since it's not a "true" belly landing with gear down even if it fails to lock.

The problem with unlocked gear is that you have to know its unlocked way before you land so you can prepare to make a split second decision. You don't know until literally the second the plane hits the ground whether the gear holds or not. With a wheels up landing where gear is stuck, you don't have to make any decision, you just do a belly landing and that's end of it since there's no other option. With gear unlocked, you have to make a split second decision right as plane lands whether to do a belly landing if gear collapses or do a normal landing if gear holds. There is a lot of uncertainty in this, and that is if you're expecting it. If you're not expecting it like in this incident, then its even worse because the first time you realize gear is unlocked, you already hit the ground and then its too late to make correct decision because it will be a knee jerk stress reaction. Knee jerk reaction to any problem while landing is to abort, but belly landing is the one scenario where it is actually the opposite, you have to stay on the ground and go against your instincts to abort. The problem is, you can only do this if you're expecting a belly landing which the pilots weren't, and thus they went around when it would've been safer to continue the landing. If the pilots knew that gear collapse would cause a belly landing, they probably would not have gone around. But again that's the problem, with gear that fails to lock, there's really no way to know for sure until you hit the ground and even then, you have to be expected gear collapse to react to it correctly. If pilot is surprised that gear collapses, they will not realize that it has actually become a belly landing requiring them to do full stop since there is no way for them to know if ATC doesn't tell them since they are inside cockpit. Since ATC didn't tell them their gear collapsed and there's no way for pilots to know, in a surprise situation where they did not expect belly landing in advance they would follow their training which is to abort landing and go around.

Takeaway here is really 2 things:

1. If ATC told pilots their gear collapsed when they touched down and to do a full stop belly landing instead and to not go around, this incident could probably have been avoided. However, it looks like pilots aborted almost immediately with 1-2 seconds so pilots would not have had to time to hear ATC and it would be too late to stop abort anyway.

2. What really should've happened is that ATC should've told pilots to not go around if their gear collapses few minutes before landing so pilots have time to prepare. If unlocked gear was false warning, great safe landing. If gear collapses, then worst case, its a belly landing, plane doesn't go around, everyone survives, plane gets scrapped. This is the only way to ensure a 100% safe landing.

In 99% of landings, if you have problem then you go around. 1% of landings when your gear is unlocked and you don't know what will happen, you don't take risk of going around. You go for one belly landing attempt and whatever happens happens. Going around with unstable gear is the one and only situation where a go around is always more dangerous than landing. You really have to fight against your instinct in this situation. With unlocked gear, you should never do more than one attempt and you must assume it will be a belly landing where gear collapses and you cannot go around because it is the safest option. The plane will be ruined but everyone will survive. If it turns out to be false warning, then no problem, its a normal landing.

But if warning is real and you ignore it and go around, you take a big risk that will you will crash before you reach the runway again and that is exactly what happened in this incident. If you are very lucky, even after going around, you may still make it back to land safely the next attempt but only if you know the gear collapsed and caused hydraulics and oil to start leaking which pilots probably didn't. You would have to be trained in advance to know you have very little time before oil and hydraulics leak out in a situation where you hit ground and abort to make a safe 2nd landing attempt since you may only have 5 minutes or less to do 2nd attempt. The second the engine hits ground is the second hydraulic fluid and oil start leaking and that is when countdown timer starts until it runs out. If you abort after hitting the runway, you must be trained to immediately start that countdown timer in your head so you can make it back to runway as quickly as possible before oil and hydraulics run out. If you don't know that time is critical in such a situation, you will take longer to get back to runway than if you were trying to hurry up. If pilots knew time was critical and had started their turn even 10 seconds earlier, it would probably have been a safe landing because engines shut down very close to the runway, just a few hundred feet away from runway. Turning back even 10 seconds earlier could have made the difference between life and death but pilots did not have sense of urgency because they aborted not knowing how severe gear collapse problem really was. They seemed relaxed on ATC almost until very end, acting sooner could have saved it. In such a time urgent situation where hydraulics and oil were leaking out rapidly after an abort, it would have been much faster, quicker, and safer to do a 180 turn immediately and land from the opposite direction than to do 360 and full circle which takes double the time.


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## Avatar

It was an unfortunate technical error that has an extremely low probability. Just sheer bad luck.


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## El Sidd

Have the number been released?


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## aakalim

Aspen said:


> There's a generic warning about landing gear but it doesn't tell you the difference between stuck and not locked.
> 
> If gear gets stuck and doesn't come down at all or gear does come down but doesn't lock, it will be the same warning, no way to tell the difference.
> 
> Gear that comes down but isn't locked is worse because it looks like like normal but in reality its not safe to land and that's what happened on this flight.



If there was indeed a warning, it means that the pilots knew before hand that there is some problem with the gear. Why then did they attempt a normal landing? They should have informed the ATC about the gear problem, tried everything to manually deploy the gear, and if nothing worked, then they should have attempted a belly landing in coordination with the ATC. 

Seems like what actually happened was that they either got no warning or ignored the warning, attempted to land normally, realized that the gear was not deployed (or locked) only after the engines hit the ground, made a split second decision to go around, resulting in the engines going out and crashing.


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## Myth_buster_1

Aspen said:


> Yeah but these guys knew their gear was stuck because they flew past ATC tower and ATC told them it did not come down at all.
> 
> PIA pilots probably had gear down but it didn't lock because of technical or maintenance issue, so you really don't know what will happen until you hit the ground. There's really no way to tell if gear is locked just by looking at it, you kind of have to trust it when its down. I'm surprised KHI ATC didn't say anything to pilots about their plane scraping the ground. Maybe they didn't notice?



I think its ATC negligence! When a metal scraps on ground at such high speed it has to make some spark or smoke! The pilot should have been informed to land right their instead of given him permission to takeoff and land again!

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## ebr77

Very very sad news . My condolences to all the people who lost their loved ones . May Allah grant them Jannat .

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## meghdut

Heartfelt condolences to the deceased and their families. Also all those were affected in this horrible tragedy.


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## ÇölKaplanı

I just learned about it... My condlences to the great Pakistani nation... May they rest in peace in heaven...

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## PanzerKiel

Balach's tags...



PanzerKiel said:


> Balach's tags...



Badly burnt tags.

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## R Wing

loanranger said:


> Biggest hint is both the engines scrapping the runway.
> They did that because the landing gear failed.
> Is it possible the pilot(s) failed to appreciate the warnings when the gear did not open properly.Thus they went to land un aware of the situation.Refer to above video on this.
> I won't go into coulda woulda shoulda.
> Damage has been done.
> Just learn what happened to give all future pilots a thorough briefing.



Who said those black marks are skid marks? The initial landing attempt was aborted at about 100-200m --- the plane did not touch the runway at any point.



Aspen said:


> Alright guys here is my revised theory:
> 
> Plane comes in for 1st landing attempt
> Landing gear extends down but does not fully lock
> Pilots have no idea that gear is faulty
> When plane lands, gear is unstable, engines hit ground
> Engines scrape ground causing black skid marks
> Pilot immediately goes around
> Plane goes around for 2nd landing attempt
> Plane circles in air for 7 minutes between landings
> During these 7 minutes, hydraulic fluid and oil is rapidly leaking out from pipes that were scraped on bottom of engine. Fuel is NOT leaking out.
> Total loss of hydraulic failure after all hydraulic fluid leaks out from ruptured hydraulic pipes on bottom of scraped engine, flaps stop working and landing gear issues get worse. White smoke in PSPK picture is hydraulic fluid leaking out of bottom of the scraped engine.
> Ram Air Turbine or manual gear drop deployed to solve landing gear issue.
> All oil rapidly leaks out from oil sumps on bottom of scraped engine, both engines shut down without oil, plane now becomes glider with no thrust. Fan blades in engine are intact which means engines were not running when plane crashed.
> Since both engines stop working, plane rapidly loses altitude during approach and crashes.
> Plane was only leaking hydraulic fluid and oil, not fuel so there is plenty of fuel left when plane crashes causing massive fireball.



I don't believe the plane ever touched the ground during the attempted / aborted initial landing. Altitude data shows the landing was aborted at approx. 200m. Climbing rapidly from that point causes HUGE stress to the engines. The hydraulic issue that caused the initial landing gear problem may have also led to engine failure. 

Another theory is that the left engine of this plane had been faulty before too and that is the one that initially failed due to the stress caused by what I described above --- and the pilot may have accidentally pulled the right engine kill lever i.e. losing both engines (this is unsubstantiated but has been shared on this thread.) 

Either way, the priority right now is helping the victims as much as possible.


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## kris

Taimoor Khan said:


> Surprising? Have you stepped outside your rat hole called India? Ever landed at Heathrow airport?


Sorry Mr. White skin worshipper, not everything that happens somewhere need to be correct...

Might be you are a low IQ or ill mannered person, my home is not a rat hole


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## R Wing

JonAsad said:


> And the airport did not have the CCTV, recording the inbound and outbound planes?



Even if they didn't (they probably did), the ATC / tower and ground staff can recreate the events in detail for the commission.



kris said:


> Sorry Mr. White skin worshipper, not everything that happens somewhere need to be correct...
> 
> Might be you are a low IQ or ill mannered person, my home is not a rat hole



I think he meant that this practice is relatively common even around extremely busy airports in developed countries. His example happened to be Heathrow but it's the case in many other cities/countries too.



Myth_buster_1 said:


> I think its ATC negligence! When a metal scraps on ground at such high speed it has to make some spark or smoke! The pilot should have been informed to land right their instead of given him permission to takeoff and land again!



You are all assuming that the plane touched the runway but there has been no evidence of that so far, has there? The black marks under the engine were probably caused by other issues, as some with technical knowledge have pointed out on this thread. 

The pilot would be well-aware if his engines scraped the ground.


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## kris

R Wing said:


> Even if they didn't (they probably did), the ATC / tower and ground staff can recreate the events in detail for the commission.
> 
> 
> 
> I think he meant that this practice is relatively common even around extremely busy airports in developed countries. His example happened to be Heathrow but it's the case in many other cities/countries too.


May be, but in reality government's should make sure civilian residences stay far away from airport.. rules are as such. From last few years Ind an government is not allowing any new construction work near airports.


Best example is visakhapatnam airport(andhrapradesh)

For example Begumpet airport has been shifted to Shamshabad in hyderabad (telangana)

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## xeuss

R Wing said:


> The hydraulic issue that caused the initial landing gear problem may have also led to engine failure.



Cannot be. Alternate extension is always available.


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## loanranger

R Wing said:


> Who said those black marks are skid marks? The initial landing attempt was aborted at about 100-200m --- the plane did not touch the runway at any point.


It was an hypothesis. Please explain other possibilities that may lead to identical black on the base of both engines.


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## Myth_buster_1

R Wing said:


> You are all assuming that the plane touched the runway but there has been no evidence of that so far, has there? The black marks under the engine were probably caused by other issues, as some with technical knowledge have pointed out on this thread.
> 
> The pilot would be well-aware if his engines scraped the ground.



Their was another incident long time ago with PIA where the pilot forgot to retract his wheels and landed on belly. I believe it was a 747 but i am not sure. 
Here is a video of aviation expert who also has mentioned that engines hit the ground.

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## Aspen

Myth_buster_1 said:


> I think its ATC negligence! When a metal scraps on ground at such high speed it has to make some spark or smoke! The pilot should have been informed to land right their instead of given him permission to takeoff and land again!



Honestly, the flight was doomed when pilot made the decision to abort



R Wing said:


> Who said those black marks are skid marks? The initial landing attempt was aborted at about 100-200m --- the plane did not touch the runway at any point.
> 
> I don't believe the plane ever touched the ground during the attempted / aborted initial landing. Altitude data shows the landing was aborted at approx. 200m. Climbing rapidly from that point causes HUGE stress to the engines. The hydraulic issue that caused the initial landing gear problem may have also led to engine failure.
> 
> Another theory is that the left engine of this plane had been faulty before too and that is the one that initially failed due to the stress caused by what I described above --- and the pilot may have accidentally pulled the right engine kill lever i.e. losing both engines (this is unsubstantiated but has been shared on this thread.)
> 
> Either way, the priority right now is helping the victims as much as possible.



If plane didn't touch the ground, then what the hell are the black marks on the bottom of the engines?


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## TheNoob

Myth_buster_1 said:


> I think its ATC negligence! When a metal scraps on ground at such high speed it has to make some spark or smoke! The pilot should have been informed to land right their instead of given him permission to takeoff and land again!



A very good point.
ATC had not pointed out any visual discrepancies if the gears were not fully locked.


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## Aspen

kris said:


> May be, but in reality government's should make sure civilian residences stay far away from airport.. rules are as such. From last few years Ind an government is not allowing any new construction work near airports.
> 
> 
> Best example is visakhapatnam airport(andhrapradesh)
> 
> For example Begumpet airport has been shifted to Shamshabad in hyderabad (telangana)



Honestly it is worst luck that plane was landing on Runway 25L.

Karachi has 4 runways and any of the other 3 would have avoided residential areas. They were large open areas near the other runways which means everyone on the plane may have survived as well. By terrible luck, the only runway that goes over dense residential areas is 25L and that is the runway the plane used.

I am wondering why the plane didn't switch from 25L to runway 25R if pilots knew there was a danger of crashing before the runway. It would have been fairly easy to turn towards the parallel runway away from residential areas unless the plane's controls were so crippled that the pilots had basically no ability to control anything. Even in worst case scenario with runway 25L, the area that lies directly underneath the flightpath is actually very small, maybe only a few hundred feet wide, a plane will cover that distance in less than 1 second. It is almost unbelievable that it didn't crash in either the open areas before or after Model Colony since the chances of it hitting that specific area is so unlikely that if the plane was just a little bit higher, lower, faster, or slower and it would've missed Model Colony and crashed in a wide open field. It was really really terrible luck that there is such a tiny area below the flightpath and that's exactly where it crashed. I would hope that if the pilots had any ability to steer it even a little bit away from Model Colony that they tried to do it. Even with extremely damaged controls, they probably would still have been able to aim for runway 25R parallel if at all possible. If they had moved 50 feet to the right or at least tried to aim for Runway 25R, they would probably have missed Model Colony and crashed in an open field and most likely everyone would have survived. The fact that they couldn't even move a little bit to the right means that the plane's controls were really crippled to the extent that it was almost unflyable, pilots could not input even basic direction commands because the plane was stalling so rapidly and had probably run out of hydraulic fluid as well as oil killing both engines at low altitude, low speed, basically making it a glider falling like a brick with zero directional control. It was really a struggle fighting the controls until the very end during the final seconds

In most aviation incidents, usually you can fix a mistake if you realize it in time. But there are certain mistakes in aviation that once you make, you are doomed and nothing can fix it. I think this PIA crash was one of those situations where after it hit the runway and aborted, nothing could save it once it decided to go around. The countdown timer started and it was a race against the clock if the plane could make it back to the runway before leaking all of its hydraulic fluid and oil causing dual engine failure and loss of control just before 2nd landing. They were so close to the runway but they were going to crash no matter what. The question was, will they crash into Model Colony, crash in an open field, or crash on the runway.

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## Maarkhoor

Aspen said:


> Honestly it is worst luck that plane was landing on Runway 25L.
> 
> Karachi has 4 runways and any of the other 3 would have avoided residential areas. They were large open areas near the other runways which means everyone on the plane may have survived as well. By terrible luck, the only runway that goes over dense residential areas is 25L and that is the runway the plane used.
> 
> I am wondering why the plane didn't switch from 25L to runway 25R if pilots knew there was a danger of crashing before the runway. It would have been fairly easy to turn towards the parallel runway away from residential areas unless the plane's controls were so crippled that the pilots had basically no ability to control anything. Even in worst case scenario with runway 25L, the area that lies directly underneath the flightpath is actually very small, maybe only a few hundred feet wide, a plane will cover that distance in less than 1 second. It is almost unbelievable that it didn't crash in either the open areas before or after Model Colony since the chances of it hitting that specific area is so unlikely that if the plane was just a little bit higher, lower, faster, or slower and it would've missed Model Colony and crashed in a wide open field. It was really really terrible luck that there is such a tiny area below the flightpath and that's exactly where it crashed. I would hope that if the pilots had any ability to steer it even a little bit away from Model Colony that they tried to do it. Even with extremely damaged controls, they probably would still have been able to aim for runway 25R parallel if at all possible. If they had moved 50 feet to the right or at least tried to aim for Runway 25R, they would probably have missed Model Colony and crashed in an open field and most likely everyone would have survived. The fact that they couldn't even move a little bit to the right means that the plane's controls were really crippled to the extent that it was almost unflyable, pilots could not input even basic direction commands because the plane was stalling so rapidly and had probably run out of hydraulic fluid as well as oil killing both engines at low altitude, low speed, basically making it a glider falling like a brick with zero directional control. It was really a struggle fighting the controls until the very end during the final seconds
> 
> In most aviation incidents, usually you can fix a mistake if you realize it in time. But there are certain mistakes in aviation that once you make, you are doomed and nothing can fix it. I think this PIA crash was one of those situations where after it hit the runway and aborted, nothing could save it once it decided to go around. The countdown timer started and it was a race against the clock if the plane could make it back to the runway before leaking all of its hydraulic fluid and oil causing dual engine failure and loss of control just before 2nd landing. They were so close to the runway but they were going to crash no matter what. The question was, will they crash into Model Colony, crash in an open field, or crash on the runway.


Just after go around....pilot inform ATC he lost both engines....at this altitude no one could have any other options.

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## Aspen

Maarkhoor said:


> Just after go around....pilot inform ATC he lost both engines....at this altitude no one could have any other options.



With total engine failure, gliding depends on 2 things and 2 things only:

1. Altitude
2. Speed

There have been several successful examples of airliners gliding to ditch in an emergency where everyone survived

US Airways 1549
British Airways 38
Air Canada 143
Ural Airways 178
Air Transat 236

But those were all gliding from a high altitude and good speed which makes much gliding much easier.

I don't think there has ever been a successful airliner glide from low altitude low speed situations.

How long they PIA was able to glide depends on when engines failed. If both engines quit at 2000ft altitude, they could have glided for a few minutes almost to the runway and had enough altitude to aim for an open field or somewhere to ditch in an emergency. If both engines quit on short final at low altitude, then they're f*****. But even a gliding airplane with dual engine failure would still be able to have some directional control to aim away from residential areas-unless flight controls were damaged by hydraulic failure also which appears to be the case. This is basically the worst case scenario, a plane at low altitude, low speed, with no power, and no directional control. In aviation, this situation is called coffin corner because you cannot get out of it unless you find somewhere open to ditch at the last second. Literally cannot be worse. On the CCTV video, the plane is a glider falling like a brick.

I don't think there was any way to land that plane given what they were dealing with. They could only hope to try to crash it safely in an open field somewhere but they didn't have directional control because of hydraulic loss so they couldn't even do that. 

What I want to know is:

1. Did plane have directional control?
2. Did plane have ability to turn right to avoid hitting Model Colony and aim for open field?
3. If they did have ability to turn, why didn't they aim for open field?

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## Imran Khan

can you guys stop ifs and buts???????? everyone tried to save lives at last minutes but they lost .

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## R Wing

Aspen said:


> Honestly, the flight was doomed when pilot made the decision to abort
> 
> 
> 
> If plane didn't touch the ground, then what the hell are the black marks on the bottom of the engines?



Firstly, you were right! The plane did touch down but (probably due to a landing gear issue) had to rapidly climb up again and try another landing. 

Secondly, some members (who had technical knowledge of A320 engines) had pointed out in this thread that the black marks could also have another source (i.e. other than skid marks during the initial aborted landing.)



loanranger said:


> It was an hypothesis. Please explain other possibilities that may lead to identical black on the base of both engines.



Your hypothesis is correct! One of the survivors, Zubair, confirmed that they did touch down but had to rapidly climb up again (landing gear issue, presumably.) 

The other potential causes of the black marks were mentioned by someone else in this thread earlier (would have to go through 40+ pages to find the post.)



Myth_buster_1 said:


> Their was another incident long time ago with PIA where the pilot forgot to retract his wheels and landed on belly. I believe it was a 747 but i am not sure.
> Here is a video of aviation expert who also has mentioned that engines hit the ground.



It does seem like the plane hit during the first landing attempt. One of the survivors confirmed this in an interview with Shahzeb Khanzada.



kris said:


> May be, but in reality government's should make sure civilian residences stay far away from airport.. rules are as such. From last few years Ind an government is not allowing any new construction work near airports.
> 
> 
> Best example is visakhapatnam airport(andhrapradesh)
> 
> For example Begumpet airport has been shifted to Shamshabad in hyderabad (telangana)



Islamabad Airport has also shifted away from the congested city. You're right.



xeuss said:


> Cannot be. Alternate extension is always available.



Noted, thank you.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Myth_buster_1 said:


> Their was another incident long time ago with PIA where the pilot forgot to retract his wheels and landed on belly. I believe it was a 747 but i am not sure.
> Here is a video of aviation expert who also has mentioned that engines hit the ground.


This happened in 1983, Aircraft involved was a B747-200 registration AP-AYW. 
https://historyofpia.com/acciphoto.htm



Aspen said:


> Karachi has 4 runways and any of the other 3 would have avoided residential areas. They were large open areas near the other runways which means everyone on the plane may have survived as well. By terrible luck, the only runway that goes over dense residential areas is 25L and that is the runway the plane used.


Karachi Airport has 2 Runways but we use both ends so 
1) 25L is one end and the opposite end is 07R. 
ILS approach is available on 25L and wind is also favorable all year long. 
Visual approach is performed for 07R and is mostly used during winter when winds are favourable.

2) 25R/07L is unservisable for a very long time. It is however used by light training aircraft. 
First NOTAM for this was way back in 2008 and is continued till todate.

So the runway that is available for normal operation is 25L/07R. In this case 25L was the one this aircraft was landing till the time approach was notified of the MAY DAY. AFTER MAY DAY both runways were available but if you are already committed on final and cleared to land and are 0.1-0.2 DME out you continue. This is what was being executed. 

Those who have flown in this area know that at this time 1430 heat is causing quite a few problems on final approach. At the crash site the height above ground on an ILS approach is not more than 200ft. 
In clean configuration approach speed is way higher than normal adding to this if you have no engine power then the aircraft can only trade hight for speed in doing this the attitude will be far steep but seeing the buildings approaching fast the pilot tries to gain height as you can see from the CCTV and eye witness accounts and then tried to lower the nose but that was not possible and the aircraft crashed. 

One more thing that I had been told from day one by my father and all the other instructors was that as soon as you have touched down do not go around if runway is clear.

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## R Wing

BIG QUESTIONS

1.) During the first landing attempt, was the landing gear extended but not 'secured' properly (meaning it collapsed upon landing impact despite being extended) OR did it simply not extend? I'm assuming it's the former, as the ATC and/or the pilot would have noticed if the landing gear wasn't extended at all.

2.) Given that both engines were damaged in the initial landing attempt (serious impact), what is the emergency procedure to be followed by the pilots and the ATC? Did they both follow it properly? It seems that one should stay grounded even if it's a belly landing VS go around again.

For me, this is the crux.



ACE OF THE AIR said:


> This happened in 1983, Aircraft involved was a B747-200 registration AP-AYW.
> https://historyofpia.com/acciphoto.htm
> 
> 
> Karachi Airport has 2 Runways but we use both ends so
> 1) 25L is one end and the opposite end is 07R.
> ILS approach is available on 25L and wind is also favorable all year long.
> Visual approach is performed for 07R and is mostly used during winter when winds are favourable.
> 
> 2) 25R/07L is unservisable for a very long time. It is however used by light training aircraft.
> First NOTAM for this was way back in 2008 and is continued till todate.
> 
> So the runway that is available for normal operation is 25L/07R. In this case 25L was the one this aircraft was landing till the time approach was notified of the MAY DAY. AFTER MAY DAY both runways were available but if you are already committed on final and cleared to land and are 0.1-0.2 DME out you continue. This is what was being executed.
> 
> Those who have flown in this area know that at this time 1430 heat is causing quite a few problems on final approach. At the crash site the height above ground on an ILS approach is not more than 200ft.
> In clean configuration approach speed is way higher than normal adding to this if you have no engine power then the aircraft can only trade hight for speed in doing this the attitude will be far steep but seeing the buildings approaching fast the pilot tries to gain height as you can see from the CCTV and eye witness accounts and then tried to lower the nose but that was not possible and the aircraft crashed.
> 
> One more thing that I had been told from day one by my father and all the other instructors was that as soon as you have touched down do not go around if runway is clear.



Your last sentence is EXACTLY what many international observers have been puzzled about. If there was impact (damage could be critical), why did the pilot do a go around?

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## Aspen

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> This happened in 1983, Aircraft involved was a B747-200 registration AP-AYW.
> https://historyofpia.com/acciphoto.htm
> 
> 
> Karachi Airport has 2 Runways but we use both ends so
> 1) 25L is one end and the opposite end is 07R.
> ILS approach is available on 25L and wind is also favorable all year long.
> Visual approach is performed for 07R and is mostly used during winter when winds are favourable.
> 
> 2) 25R/07L is unservisable for a very long time. It is however used by light training aircraft.
> First NOTAM for this was way back in 2008 and is continued till todate.
> 
> So the runway that is available for normal operation is 25L/07R. In this case 25L was the one this aircraft was landing till the time approach was notified of the MAY DAY. AFTER MAY DAY both runways were available but if you are already committed on final and cleared to land and are 0.1-0.2 DME out you continue. This is what was being executed.
> 
> Those who have flown in this area know that at this time 1430 heat is causing quite a few problems on final approach. At the crash site the height above ground on an ILS approach is not more than 200ft.
> In clean configuration approach speed is way higher than normal adding to this if you have no engine power then the aircraft can only trade hight for speed in doing this the attitude will be far steep but seeing the buildings approaching fast the pilot tries to gain height as you can see from the CCTV and eye witness accounts and then tried to lower the nose but that was not possible and the aircraft crashed.
> 
> One more thing that I had been told from day one by my father and all the other instructors was that as soon as you have touched down do not go around if runway is clear.



25R may be unserviceable but in a desperate emergency like this, surely any runway was available to them? It was either they aim for open field near 25R or 25L where they can't clear the top of buildings in Model Colony. Frankly I am amazed that they chose 25L. I am guessing they chose 25L because when they chose it, they thought they could make it all the way to the runway. There is really no other explanation. If they knew they couldn't make it to the runway and still chose 25L knowing that there is a real chance they could hit Model Colony if they fell short, that is like a death sentence. If the engines failed earlier, they would likely have realized the urgency of the problem sooner while they were at a higher altitude and tried to aim for 25R instead. By the time engine failed on 25L approach, they knew they were too low to clear Model Colony but it was too late to do anything. But even in that situation, if they made a last second turn to the right, I think they could've cleared it laterally. If they made a last minute turn at low altitude where CCTV video is, they would definitely have missed both runways for sure and they would've crashed in an open field. But crashing in a field is still better than crashing into a residential area. The fact that they couldn't turn at all leads me to believe that either they had no directional control on the stick because of hydraulic failure and very sudden stall that left very little to react before crash or they decided to stay on 25L approach for some mysterious reason.

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## Baghial

Al-Ansar said:


> Inna Lillahi Wa Inna Ilaihi Rajiun.
> 
> Maybe one lesson we can learn from this mishap is to not attempt a second take off with a malfunctioning/damaged aircraft under any circumstances.
> In hindsight, it seems that landing on the nose in the first attempt might have incurred less casualties despite the risk of the air frame breaking apart causing rapid depressurisation.


...in belly landing, nose is the last part of airplane which needs to be lowered toward ground, most of the drag has to occur on tail. then the wings, then the nose, to keep the plane stable, and not flip over or turn side ways,


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## Aspen

R Wing said:


> BIG QUESTIONS
> 
> 1.) During the first landing attempt, was the landing gear extended but not 'secured' properly (meaning it collapsed upon landing impact despite being extended) OR did it simply not extend? I'm assuming it's the former, as the ATC and/or the pilot would have noticed if the landing gear wasn't extended at all.
> 
> 2.) Given that both engines were damaged in the initial landing attempt (serious impact), what is the emergency procedure to be followed by the pilots and the ATC? Did they both follow it properly? It seems that one should stay grounded even if it's a belly landing VS go around again.




1) Skid marks on bottom of engine point to gear not being "locked" aka collapsed. It also explains hydraulic fluid and oil leakage from the bottom of the engine where it scraped runway as white smoke seen in the picture which caused landing gear issues, flap problems, control loss, and engine failure.

2) To be honest, I don't think an aborted gear collapse landing is something most pilots train for currently but they should in the future. I think Emirates 521 crash in Dubai was a good example of what would've happened if PIA stayed on ground after gear collapse. Emirates 521 bounced hard on landing and then had landing gear collapse but pilot kept it on ground. Emirates plane was completely destroyed but every single person survived because pilot did the right thing by not aborting after plane hit the ground.







The problem is really that belly landing/gear collapse is the ONE AND ONLY situation in aviation where it is better to have a rough landing than to abort. It goes against every single pilot instinct to stay on ground after a bad landing, pilots are trained to abort when they have trouble during landing. The thing you have to remember is that belly landing/gear collapse is the one exception that goes against this rule where it is better to crash land than to abort no matter how bad the landing is, it will always cause more problems in the air than on the runway. Aborting after belly landing/gear collapse is a death sentence and you have a much higher chance of being killed in a crash after aborting a belly landing/gear collapse than if you stay on the runway no matter how bad the belly landing/gear collapse was. A belly landing/gear collapse will always be worse in the air than on the runway.


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## PanzerKiel



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## Aspen

PanzerKiel said:


> View attachment 634968
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Did you take these pics?


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Aspen said:


> 25R may be unserviceable but in a desperate emergency like this, surely any runway was available to them?


Yes it was made available to them at approximately 2000ft after cleared to land on 25L was already given. approach also asked if they were intending to belly land which was responded by AFIRM and then loss of engines and a MAY DAY all this happened in less than a minute.
If you may have heard the audio then the call was 5 miles out of 3500 for 3000 established on ILS 25L... Clear LAND. and the last words that are heard where Mayday is heard is approximately 1 min. 



Aspen said:


> It was either they aim for open field near 25R or 25L where they can't clear the top of buildings in Model Colony. Frankly I am amazed that they chose 25L.


If you are a pilot than you know that ILS has both visual and instrument to guide. Any pilot who is in an emergency would prefer ILS over Visual specially if he is on limited instruments without power and unreliable electrical supply. Pilot would see PAPPIS to guide him and this is what he was doing. 

Last minute turn to the right and realignment with the other runway (25R) could have them loose sight of the runway all together. Do remember that turn also drops your nose as you bleed off airspeed. This is something that can not be lost in the final few minutes of landing even in Ideal conditions. 



Aspen said:


> I am guessing they chose 25L because when they chose it, they thought they could make it all the way to the runway.


If you think you can not make it then you can not even move your fingers.



Aspen said:


> If the engines failed earlier, they would likely have realized the urgency of the problem sooner while they were at a higher altitude and tried to aim for 25R instead. By the time engine failed on 25L approach, they knew they were too low to clear Model Colony but it was too late to do anything


It would have made no difference they would still have chosen the runway with an ILS which is only available at 25L.



Aspen said:


> But even in that situation, if they made a last second turn to the right, I think they could've cleared it laterally.


They could have hit the high tension wires and ultimately crashed into anti aircraft in malir cantt area. 



Aspen said:


> If they made a last minute turn at low altitude where CCTV video is, they would definitely have missed both runways for sure and they would've crashed in an open field.


There is no open field in that area. there is a road which is approx 90 meters wide with tree line and heavy intensity electrical wires in the centre.
The CCTV video shows that the aircraft nose is pitched up. It seems like it is approx 40-50 feet agl. Usually Flare height is 40ft so they had flight control but did not have right speed and height.



Aspen said:


> But crashing in a field is still better than crashing into a residential area. The fact that they couldn't turn at all leads me to believe that either they had no directional control on the stick or they decided to stay on 25L approach for some unknown reason.

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## Baghial



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## ACE OF THE AIR




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## kris

Aspen said:


> Honestly it is worst luck that plane was landing on Runway 25L.
> 
> Karachi has 4 runways and any of the other 3 would have avoided residential areas. They were large open areas near the other runways which means everyone on the plane may have survived as well. By terrible luck, the only runway that goes over dense residential areas is 25L and that is the runway the plane used.
> 
> I am wondering why the plane didn't switch from 25L to runway 25R if pilots knew there was a danger of crashing before the runway. It would have been fairly easy to turn towards the parallel runway away from residential areas unless the plane's controls were so crippled that the pilots had basically no ability to control anything. Even in worst case scenario with runway 25L, the area that lies directly underneath the flightpath is actually very small, maybe only a few hundred feet wide, a plane will cover that distance in less than 1 second. It is almost unbelievable that it didn't crash in either the open areas before or after Model Colony since the chances of it hitting that specific area is so unlikely that if the plane was just a little bit higher, lower, faster, or slower and it would've missed Model Colony and crashed in a wide open field. It was really really terrible luck that there is such a tiny area below the flightpath and that's exactly where it crashed. I would hope that if the pilots had any ability to steer it even a little bit away from Model Colony that they tried to do it. Even with extremely damaged controls, they probably would still have been able to aim for runway 25R parallel if at all possible. If they had moved 50 feet to the right or at least tried to aim for Runway 25R, they would probably have missed Model Colony and crashed in an open field and most likely everyone would have survived. The fact that they couldn't even move a little bit to the right means that the plane's controls were really crippled to the extent that it was almost unflyable, pilots could not input even basic direction commands because the plane was stalling so rapidly and had probably run out of hydraulic fluid as well as oil killing both engines at low altitude, low speed, basically making it a glider falling like a brick with zero directional control. It was really a struggle fighting the controls until the very end during the final seconds
> 
> In most aviation incidents, usually you can fix a mistake if you realize it in time. But there are certain mistakes in aviation that once you make, you are doomed and nothing can fix it. I think this PIA crash was one of those situations where after it hit the runway and aborted, nothing could save it once it decided to go around. The countdown timer started and it was a race against the clock if the plane could make it back to the runway before leaking all of its hydraulic fluid and oil causing dual engine failure and loss of control just before 2nd landing. They were so close to the runway but they were going to crash no matter what. The question was, will they crash into Model Colony, crash in an open field, or crash on the runway.


Sad that they missed very narrow


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## pak-marine

this is not confirmed however there is eye witness accounts that the plane first hit a mobile tower which set off the series of events


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## Aspen

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Yes it was made available to them at approximately 2000ft after cleared to land on 25L was already given. approach also asked if they were intending to belly land which was responded by AFIRM and then loss of engines and a MAY DAY all this happened in less than a minute.
> If you may have heard the audio then the call was 5 miles out of 3500 for 3000 established on ILS 25L... Clear LAND. and the last words that are heard where Mayday is heard is approximately 1 min.
> 
> If you are a pilot than you know that ILS has both visual and instrument to guide. Any pilot who is in an emergency would prefer ILS over Visual specially if he is on limited instruments without power and unreliable electrical supply. Pilot would see PAPPIS to guide him and this is what he was doing.
> 
> Last minute turn to the right and realignment with the other runway (25R) could have them loose sight of the runway all together. Do remember that turn also drops your nose as you bleed off airspeed. This is something that can not be lost in the final few minutes of landing even in Ideal conditions.



If ILS was the concern, then why didn't go for 7R instead of 25L? One thing is pretty clear and that is that when hydraulic fluid and oil started leaking from the bottom of the scraped engine, they had very little time to make it back to the runway. Maybe 5 minutes? Doing a 360 all the way back to 25L would have taken 5 minutes alone, the oil would probably run out and shut off both engines just as the plane began its short final if we assume a 5 minute depletion period during the circle back to 25L. If the engines shut off just as plane begins its short final and glides at low altitude towards 25L over Model Colony, is there any way you don't crash? Gliding is something that only works at high altitude, at low altitude, gliding is a recipe for disaster. If 25L takes too long to circle back to before leaking hydraulic fluid and oil run out while 25R doesn't have ILS, then neither 25's should have been used. I get that typically its a bad idea to fly with wind direction instead of against it, but I don't think it would have been worse than running out of hydraulic fluid and oil which the pilots chose by taking the longer route back to 25L. Making a 180 after abort to approach runway 7R ILS from opposite direction would have been a much better idea as it would have given pilots a significant time buffer against the hydraulic fluid and oil running out by saving at least 1-2 minutes compared to 360 circle back to 25L. 1-2 minutes before crash, the plane probably still had some engine power and minimal directional control for a somewhat controlled safe landing that could reach the runway before running out of hydraulic fluid and oil within the 5 minute depletion window. Pilots probably took the chance that they would make it back to 25L before hydraulic fluid and oil ran out but they didn't make it back in time. When hydraulic fluid ran out, they lost flaps on short final, when oil ran out, they lost engines on short final. It seems like an unrecoverable situation to end up in, it's really not worth the chance of taking the long circle back to 25L with the risk of ending up in a situation where you can suddenly lose everything without warning at low altitude low speed seconds before the runway. If they went for 7R ILS, I am almost certain that the plane would have made it back to the runway in time to do a safe, controlled landing before hydraulic fluid ran out, oil ran out, and both engines shut off.

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## Blacklight

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1263996659408736256

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## pak-marine

*Pakistan plane crash survivor: 'All I could see was smoke and fire'*


One of two survivors recalls how Airbus crashed during second attempt to land at Karachi airport, killing at least 97 people

Agencies

Sat 23 May 2020 04.14 BSTLast modified on Sat 23 May 2020 10.20 BST


At a Karachi hospital plane crash survivor Mohammad Zubair told officials: ‘All I could see was fire. I couldn’t see any people – just hear their screams.’ Photograph: AP
One of the two survivors of the Pakistan plane crash has described his escape from the burning plane after it came down during a second attempt at a landing.

“All I could see around was smoke and fire,” engineer Muhammad Zubair told Geo News. “I could hear screams from all directions. Kids and adults. All I could see was fire. I couldn’t see any people – just hear their screams.”

“I opened my seat belt and saw some light. I went towards the light. I had to jump down about 10 feet to get to safety.”

The Pakistan International Airlines Airbus jet with 99 people aboard crashed into a crowded residential district of the city of Karachi on Friday afternoon after twice trying to land at the airport.

At least 97 people were confirmed to have died, health authorities said, but it was not immediately clear whether they included casualties on the ground.

Play Video
Pakistan plane crash: smoke billows over residential area in Karachi – video
The other passenger who survived was Zafar Masood, president of the Bank of Punjab, a Sindh provincial government spokesman said. The bank said he had suffered fractures but was “conscious and responding well”.

Zubair said from his bed in Civil Hospital Karachi that about 10 minutes after a failed first landing attempt, the pilot announced to passengers he was going to make a second attempt, then crashed as he approached the runway.

Smoke billowed from the scene where flight PK 8303 came down at about 2.45pm local time. Twisted fuselage lay in the rubble of multi-storey buildings as ambulances rushed through chaotic crowds.

The crash happened on the eve of the Muslim Eid festival, when many in Pakistan travel to visit relatives.

“*The aeroplane first hit a mobile tower and crashed over houses,” witness Shakeel Ahmed said near the site, a few kilometres short of the airport.*

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ivor-all-i-could-see-was-smoke-and-fire#img-2
The Airbus A320 was flying from the eastern city of Lahore to Karachi in the south with 91 passengers and eight crew, civil aviation authorities said, just as Pakistan was resuming domestic flights in the wake of the coronavirus pandemic.
Health officials said 97 people were killed and two survived.

Seconds before the crash, the pilot told air traffic controllers he had lost power from both engines, according to a recording posted on liveatc.net, a respected aviation monitoring website.

“We are returning back, sir, we have lost engines,” a man was heard saying in a recording released by the website. The controller freed up both the airport’s runways but moments later the man called, “Mayday! Mayday! Mayday!”.

There was no further communication from the plane, according to the tape, which could not immediately be authenticated.

“The last we heard from the pilot was that he has some technical problem ... It is a very tragic incident,” said the state carrier’s spokesman, Abdullah H. Khan.

Another senior civil aviation official said it appeared the plane had been unable to lower its undercarriage for the first approach due to a technical fault, but it was too early to determine the cause.

Aviation safety experts say air crashes typically have multiple causes, and that it is too early to understand them within the first hours or days.

Airbus said the jet first flew in 2004 and was fitted with engines built by CFM International, co-owned by General Electric and France’s Safran.

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## Blacklight

pak-marine said:


> *Pakistan plane crash survivor: 'All I could see was smoke and fire'*
> 
> 
> One of two survivors recalls how Airbus crashed during second attempt to land at Karachi airport, killing at least 97 people
> 
> Agencies
> 
> Sat 23 May 2020 04.14 BSTLast modified on Sat 23 May 2020 10.20 BST
> 
> 
> At a Karachi hospital plane crash survivor Mohammad Zubair told officials: ‘All I could see was fire. I couldn’t see any people – just hear their screams.’ Photograph: AP
> One of the two survivors of the Pakistan plane crash has described his escape from the burning plane after it came down during a second attempt at a landing.
> 
> “All I could see around was smoke and fire,” engineer Muhammad Zubair told Geo News. “I could hear screams from all directions. Kids and adults. All I could see was fire. I couldn’t see any people – just hear their screams.”
> 
> “I opened my seat belt and saw some light. I went towards the light. I had to jump down about 10 feet to get to safety.”
> 
> The Pakistan International Airlines Airbus jet with 99 people aboard crashed into a crowded residential district of the city of Karachi on Friday afternoon after twice trying to land at the airport.
> 
> At least 97 people were confirmed to have died, health authorities said, but it was not immediately clear whether they included casualties on the ground.
> 
> Play Video
> Pakistan plane crash: smoke billows over residential area in Karachi – video
> The other passenger who survived was Zafar Masood, president of the Bank of Punjab, a Sindh provincial government spokesman said. The bank said he had suffered fractures but was “conscious and responding well”.
> 
> Zubair said from his bed in Civil Hospital Karachi that about 10 minutes after a failed first landing attempt, the pilot announced to passengers he was going to make a second attempt, then crashed as he approached the runway.
> 
> Smoke billowed from the scene where flight PK 8303 came down at about 2.45pm local time. Twisted fuselage lay in the rubble of multi-storey buildings as ambulances rushed through chaotic crowds.
> 
> The crash happened on the eve of the Muslim Eid festival, when many in Pakistan travel to visit relatives.
> 
> “*The aeroplane first hit a mobile tower and crashed over houses,” witness Shakeel Ahmed said near the site, a few kilometres short of the airport.*
> 
> The Airbus A320 was flying from the eastern city of Lahore to Karachi in the south with 91 passengers and eight crew, civil aviation authorities said, just as Pakistan was resuming domestic flights in the wake of the coronavirus pandemic.
> Health officials said 97 people were killed and two survived.
> 
> Seconds before the crash, the pilot told air traffic controllers he had lost power from both engines, according to a recording posted on liveatc.net, a respected aviation monitoring website.
> 
> “We are returning back, sir, we have lost engines,” a man was heard saying in a recording released by the website. The controller freed up both the airport’s runways but moments later the man called, “Mayday! Mayday! Mayday!”.
> 
> There was no further communication from the plane, according to the tape, which could not immediately be authenticated.
> 
> “The last we heard from the pilot was that he has some technical problem ... It is a very tragic incident,” said the state carrier’s spokesman, Abdullah H. Khan.
> 
> Another senior civil aviation official said it appeared the plane had been unable to lower its undercarriage for the first approach due to a technical fault, but it was too early to determine the cause.
> 
> Aviation safety experts say air crashes typically have multiple causes, and that it is too early to understand them within the first hours or days.
> 
> Airbus said the jet first flew in 2004 and was fitted with engines built by CFM International, co-owned by General Electric and France’s Safran.





pak-marine said:


> “*The aeroplane first hit a mobile tower and crashed over houses,” witness Shakeel Ahmed said near the site, a few kilometres short of the airport.*



CAA and City planners are responsible for "anything" within the flt path. Someone should also ask the Telco as well.
But in Pakistan "Sub chalta hai"

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## Imran Khan



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## pak-marine

Blacklight said:


> CAA and City planners are responsible for "anything" within the flt path. Someone should also ask the Telco as well.
> But in Pakistan "Sub chalta hai"



Scum bags , from Top to Toe every single govt entity

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## newb3e

pak-marine said:


> Scum bags , from Top to Toe every single govt entity


cant also has high rises nearby please un peh bhi gussa kar dain! they are also building another society right next to airport un peh bho gussa kar lain!


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## Maarkhoor

Aspen said:


> With total engine failure, gliding depends on 2 things and 2 things only:
> 
> 1. Altitude
> 2. Speed
> 
> There have been several successful examples of airliners gliding to ditch in an emergency where everyone survived
> 
> US Airways 1549
> British Airways 38
> Air Canada 143
> Ural Airways 178
> Air Transat 236
> 
> But those were all gliding from a high altitude and good speed which makes much gliding much easier.
> 
> I don't think there has ever been a successful airliner glide from low altitude low speed situations.
> 
> How long they PIA was able to glide depends on when engines failed. If both engines quit at 2000ft altitude, they could have glided for a few minutes almost to the runway and had enough altitude to aim for an open field or somewhere to ditch in an emergency. If both engines quit on short final at low altitude, then they're f*****. But even a gliding airplane with dual engine failure would still be able to have some directional control to aim away from residential areas-unless flight controls were damaged by hydraulic failure also which appears to be the case. This is basically the worst case scenario, a plane at low altitude, low speed, with no power, and no directional control. In aviation, this situation is called coffin corner because you cannot get out of it unless you find somewhere open to ditch at the last second. Literally cannot be worse. On the CCTV video, the plane is a glider falling like a brick.
> 
> I don't think there was any way to land that plane given what they were dealing with. They could only hope to try to crash it safely in an open field somewhere but they didn't have directional control because of hydraulic loss so they couldn't even do that.
> 
> What I want to know is:
> 
> 1. Did plane have directional control?
> 2. Did plane have ability to turn right to avoid hitting Model Colony and aim for open field?
> 3. If they did have ability to turn, why didn't they aim for open field?


As per confirm reports either pilots by mistake or because of technical problem landing gear not open and they don't know....they tried landing and scratch both engines on the runway later they realized and try to climb and open landing gear but at that time due to scathing on runway both engines fail and plane stalled.


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## Imran Khan

Blacklight said:


> CAA and City planners are responsible for "anything" within the flt path. Someone should also ask the Telco as well.
> But in Pakistan "Sub chalta hai"


CAA and city planners also destroyed our skyline . tey did not allow to build high rises but they can not stop the mess near airport ,


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## Blacklight

Imran Khan said:


> CAA and city planners also destroyed our skyline . tey did not allow to build high rises but they can not stop the mess near airport ,



Sir with high rise buildings, you need a very efficient multi layered road network, and mass transit system. Without this High rises only encourage traffic congestion. As you might be aware that traffic congestions have a direct effect on productivity and hence the economy.

As to the vicinity of the airport, this incident has highlighted two issues:
1) Population close to it
2) Sanitary issues - garbage pile ups.

Both these issues are a hazard to aviation, and need to be addressed at the earliest.

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## 313ghazi

Inna lillahi wa Inna ilahi rajioun. 

What a terrible moment for all the families involved.

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## pak-marine

newb3e said:


> cant also has high rises nearby please un peh bhi gussa kar dain! they are also building another society right next to airport un peh bho gussa kar lain!



equally big khanzirs they are constructing and selling floors most are illegal however the issue is they are free to do as they like and as long as they can keep filling pockets of the respective authorities no one gives a flyng fck, what i am saying is builder mafias work in conjuction with indivisuals within authorites , they can shut up any one raising an issue within a day ... heck the entire thing is on the door step of a holy chaowni .. when those who are paid to protect , plan , safeguard life and property are like this than expect this .. does this makes you happy

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## Blacklight

Aspen said:


> .
> 
> 2) To be honest, I don't think an aborted gear collapse landing is something most pilots train for currently but they should in the future. I think Emirates 521 crash in Dubai was a good example of what would've happened if PIA stayed on ground after gear collapse. Emirates 521 bounced hard on landing and then had landing gear collapse but pilot kept it on ground. Emirates plane was completely destroyed but every single person survived because pilot did the right thing by not aborting after plane hit the ground.


You example of EK-521 does not hold true. EK-521 crashed due to "wind-shear" based issues, and not MLG deployment failures, as was the case of the ill fated PK-8303.


*Investigators release final Emirates 777 crash-landing report*
22nd February 2020

Emirates Boeing 777 aircraft, flying from India, crash-landed in Dubai (UAE) as it was attempting to fly a go-around, bursting into flames minutes later. While the 300 people onboard the wide-body evacuated alive, a firefighter was killed when tackling the fire. Immediately after the accident, which happened in 2016, a landing gear failure was suspected to be at fault. *However,* the final accident report now points to pilot mistake and the fact that the engine thrust was insufficient for a second go-around flight. 

Emirates Boeing 777-300 crash-landing at Dubai (the UAE) on August 3, 2016, was the first accident of such scale in the Emirates’ history. Immediately after the incident, reports emerged stating that the aircraft had issues with its landing gear, suggesting that the gear did not fully extend and the aircraft had to land on its belly. However, during the course of investigation, no issues with the Boeing 777-300’s systems or its Rolls-Royce engines were found and the investigators’ shifted their focus to the crew.

*Emirates Boeing 777 crash-lands with explosion in Dubai*
Emirates Boeing 777-300, registration number A6-EMW, was operating a scheduled passenger flight UAE521 on August 3, 2016. Having departed from Trivandrum International Airport (VOTV), India, the aircraft was about to land at its destination airport in Dubai, the United Arab Emirates. 

During the first landing attempt, the Emirates pilots were unable to land the airplane within the runway zone, opting for a go-around instead. While a moderate *windshear *was expected on the day, the main reason for the go-around decision was due to *thermals.* Thus, the crew opted for a normal go-around instead of the windshear escape maneuver.

However, some switches required for the second go-around were inhibited because of a touchdown. The problem was, the flight crew were unaware that there had been a touchdown, which lasted for six seconds.

After becoming airborne during the go-around attempt, the aircraft had insufficient engine thrust for the climb and quickly began losing height and speed. While the pilots did try to fix the situation by performing the windshear escape maneuver, it was already too late. 

Eighteen seconds after the initiation of the go-around, the Boeing 777 carrying 282 passengers, 16 cabin crew, and two pilots, crashed-landed on the runway 12L in Dubai International Airport (DXB). 

After sliding on its lower fuselage along the runway, the plane finally came to a stop next to a taxiway Mike 13. Less than ten minutes later, the aircraft burst into flames as the center wing tank exploded. 

Despite the fact that *some passengers evacuated with their carry-on baggage, thus prolonging the procedure,* the evacuation lasted for about seven minutes (6 minutes 40 seconds). During it, 21 passengers, a pilot, and six crew members sustained minor injuries, while four cabin crew members were injured more seriously. Only the captain and the senior cabin crew member evacuated after the center wing tank explosion.

However, the accident did result in one fatality. The explosion of the wing tank tore down a large section of the right wing upper skin. The falling panel struck and fatally injured a firefighter.

The Emirates Boeing 777 was destroyed during the fire. 

*Final report lists four main causes*
Following a four years’ investigation, the UAE’s General Civil Aviation Authority issued a final report on January 20, 2020. The determined there were four main causes and various contributing factors to the accident: 

a) During the attempted go-around, except for the last three seconds prior to impact, both engine thrust levers, and therefore engine thrust, remained at idle. Consequently, the Aircraft’s energy state was insufficient to sustain flight.

(b) The flight crew did not effectively scan and monitor the primary flight instrumentation parameters during the landing and the attempted go-around.

(c) The flight crew were unaware that the autothrottle (A/T) had not responded to move the engine thrust levers to the TO/GA position after the Commander pushed the TO/GA switch at the initiation of the FCOM ̶ Go-around and Missed Approach Procedure.

(d) The flight crew did not take corrective action to increase engine thrust because they omitted the engine thrust verification steps of the FCOM ̶ Go-around and Missed Approach Procedure.



https://www.aerotime.aero/aerotime....lease-final-emirates-777-crash-landing-report

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## Yaseen1

govt is happy as far as foreign money is coming in dollars for buying of such properties,this is one major source of foreign investment in Pakistan as we have failed to develop industries for attracting investment in other sectors


pak-marine said:


> equally big khanzirs they are constructing and selling floors most are illegal however the issue is they are free to do as they like and as long as they can keep filling pockets of the respective authorities no one gives a flyng fck, what i am saying is builder mafias work in conjuction with indivisuals within authorites , they can shut up any one raising an issue within a day ... heck the entire thing is on the door step of a holy chaowni .. when those who are paid to protect , plan , safeguard life and property are like this than expect this .. does this makes you happy

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

*SINDH court's* fault , for disqualifying the CEO of PIA and taking away his attention from management of PIA for 3-4 months due to political drama staged by court.

I had already stated this before when they were playing their drama bazi , wait untill a accident happens and it will be all on their Head

for Good 3-5 months this drama was going on which prevented CEO to work what do CEO do they .... order parts , oversea work , labor and ensure work is being done

Had they not interfered in operations of a PIA , lead by retired Airforce experience guy likely this accident could have been prevented

When you interfere "Su Moto crap" for no reason on a perfectly good man's work then these accidents are bound to happen

CEO/GM makes critical decisions to buy parts and , also attend various important meetings abouts up keep of planes and their overall maintenance by playing the "Su Moto Crap" drama courts hindered the oversight on a critical operation line in PIA

SINDH court and judges involved in this political drama about PIA choosing not good for their liking are 100% to be blamed

When you order the CEO/GM of company to sit at home because you think their Airforce education and 20 year experience is not enough to run a Airplane operation businesss then what can you say ....


Su-Moto crap , Kala Bagh Dam
Su-Moto Riqo Diq case
Su-Moto Firing of excessive hiree in state owned entities
Su-Moto Why people are asked to to stay home in corona virus
Su-Moto PIA CEO position appointment by PTI


Mean while Nawaz Sharif leaves Prison and country on a 5 rupee paper from baniya outside the courtyard



Remember this??





*PIA chief stopped from working on petition challenging appointment*
https://www.dawn.com/news/1525475















When a person CEO is working ?! and every thing is fine then why he was told to sit home? the absence impacted PIA operations which caused the crashed few months later













*GAME HO GIYA FINISH*
Now BC , judges will go on their Summer Vacation after crash happened MC

Will any BC Sindh high court judge will come and claim he made error for banning the ceo of PIA ? No .....

court court game ho giya !!!! Dil Khol ker su moto ker lo BC courts

Eating tea and buscuit in Sindh High court or Punjab High court and passing out su moto with no head or tail

Sindh , center of HIV outbreak
Sindh center of Corona outbreak
Sindh , involved in food hoarding and budget money gone with no purchase of food per records

And courts taking Su-moto to take orders from PPP to ban CEO of PIA


PPP had buget of 8 billion dollar they can't even , start up Steeles mills !!! in their own province ?

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## Blacklight

313ghazi said:


> Inna lillahi wa Inna ilahi rajioun.
> 
> What a terrible moment for all the families involved.



Every one that perished was one of ours.

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## Caprxl

GDP Adil Khan Niazi said:


> Agar plane first-time runway per agaya tha aur 3 jhatkon kay baad thora chala bhe tha I'm wondering why did Pilot decided to fly that plane back again in the air?



For a 2nd attempt at Landing but unfortunately as pointed out by other members as well it seems during 1st attempt both engines skid the runway causing massive damage & later hydraulic failure as well.

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## Safriz

In the History of Pakistan, this is the first air crash, in which PIA CEO has done a press conference after a crash. This never happened before. Also promised an independent enquiry and federal Minister has said they will complete the enquiry in 3 months, and a time frame has been given.
This never happened before.

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## Caprxl

Blacklight said:


> CAA and City planners are responsible for "anything" within the flt path. Someone should also ask the Telco as well.
> But in Pakistan "Sub chalta hai"





pak-marine said:


> Scum bags , from Top to Toe every single govt entity





Blacklight said:


> Sir with high rise buildings, you need a very efficient multi layered road network, and mass transit system. Without this High rises only encourage traffic congestion. As you might be aware that traffic congestions have a direct effect on productivity and hence the economy.
> 
> As to the vicinity of the airport, this incident has highlighted two issues:
> 1) Population close to it
> 2) Sanitary issues - garbage pile ups.
> 
> Both these issues are a hazard to aviation, and need to be addressed at the earliest.



Today, Civil Aviation minister Ghulam Sarwar Khan informed that 1500 Acres of Civil Aviation land has been encroached in Karachi

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## R Wing

Blacklight said:


> CAA and City planners are responsible for "anything" within the flt path. Someone should also ask the Telco as well.
> But in Pakistan "Sub chalta hai"





pak-marine said:


> Scum bags , from Top to Toe every single govt entity





Imran Khan said:


> CAA and city planners also destroyed our skyline . tey did not allow to build high rises but they can not stop the mess near airport ,



What else can one expect in a country where even military dictators didn't take strict action against such negligence? Only firing squads can fix this mess. There is absolutely no fear of consequences for traitors in this place.


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## El Sidd

newb3e said:


> not happy but sad that we have put all our eggs in fauji basket who are as corrupt as politicians!



any news on the casualties now official?

everyone is reporting their own numbers


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## Falcon29

May God have mercy on them and give their families patience.

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## darksider

my request to the staff that in an event like this when thread creator not updating the opening post with latest info then staff should take over the thread and edit and update it with the latest info.
it will become more informative than just mixtures of random comments. we don't have to go page by page to get info.thanks.

this will give you what i am trying to say.
thanks to r/Pakistan
What we know?

Aircraft type : A320-214

Age : 15 years (Aug 2004)

Aircraft Registration AP-BLD

Flight destination : KHI/OPKC, Jinnah International Airport Karachi.

Origin: LHE/OPLA, Allama Iqbal International Airport Lahore.

Souls onboard: 91 Passengers + 7 Crew

Casualties and survivors: 97 Dead 2 Survivors (CEO PIA 23/5)

Aircraft Crashed into a residential neighbourhood called Model Colony

Initial Statement by the CAA “The aircraft was experiencing some technical issue with landing gear before landing.”

Useful Links

List and the names of the passenger on board 

Official Press Release by PIA 

Twitter Thread by Aircraft Tracking Website FR24



Crash Site on a map 



Statement by the President 



Statement by the Prime Minister 



Statement by the CEO of PIA 



Statement by ICAO, the UN governing body for Aviation.



Statement by Airbus, the manufacturer of the Aircraft involved 



Last known photo of the Aircraft 

, charring visible on the bottom of the Engines, RAT Deployed. Possible bird strikes causing multiple engine failure

Conversations between the ATC and the ill fated flight 



Press statement by IATA, the international airline industry organization that PIA is a member of 



Press Conference by CEO PIA 



“Air Commodore Usman Ghani to head Aircraft Accident Investigation Board (AAIB) team for investigation of the crash.”

This will be updated once more info is available

here is the video with some tech information about the incident.

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## newb3e

El Sidd said:


> any news on the casualties now official?
> 
> everyone is reporting their own numbers


2 survivors


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## El Sidd

newb3e said:


> 2 survivors



and the crash site?


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## ghazi52



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## Ashraf. M

Too may armchair analysists here... can anyone please update abt loss of life and survivors? My heart goes to those lil kids..


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## arjunk

Fucking corrupt PPP Idiots, they all should feel the suffering they inflicted on others.






AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> *SINDH court's* fault , for disqualifying the CEO of PIA and taking away his attention from management of PIA for 3-4 months due to political drama staged by court.
> 
> I had already stated this before when they were playing their drama bazi , wait untill a accident happens and it will be all on their Head
> 
> for Good 3-5 months this drama was going on which prevented CEO to work what do CEO do they .... order parts , oversea work , labor and ensure work is being done
> 
> Had they not interfered in operations of a PIA , lead by retired Airforce experience guy likely this accident could have been prevented
> 
> When you interfere "Su Moto crap" for no reason on a perfectly good man's work then these accidents are bound to happen
> 
> CEO/GM makes critical decisions to buy parts and , also attend various important meetings abouts up keep of planes and their overall maintenance by playing the "Su Moto Crap" drama courts hindered the oversight on a critical operation line in PIA
> 
> SINDH court and judges involved in this political drama about PIA choosing not good for their liking are 100% to be blamed
> 
> When you order the CEO/GM of company to sit at home because you think their Airforce education and 20 year experience is not enough to run a Airplane operation businesss then what can you say ....
> 
> 
> Su-Moto crap , Kala Bagh Dam
> Su-Moto Riqo Diq case
> Su-Moto Firing of excessive hiree in state owned entities
> Su-Moto Why people are asked to to stay home in corona virus
> Su-Moto PIA CEO position appointment by PTI
> 
> 
> Mean while Nawaz Sharif leaves Prison and country on a 5 rupee paper from baniya outside the courtyard
> 
> 
> 
> Remember this??
> View attachment 635010
> 
> 
> *PIA chief stopped from working on petition challenging appointment*
> https://www.dawn.com/news/1525475
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 635011
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 635012
> 
> 
> 
> When a person CEO is working ?! and every thing is fine then why he was told to sit home? the absence impacted PIA operations which caused the crashed few months later
> 
> View attachment 635013
> 
> 
> View attachment 635014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *GAME HO GIYA FINISH*
> Now BC , judges will go on their Summer Vacation after crash happened MC
> 
> Will any BC Sindh high court judge will come and claim he made error for banning the ceo of PIA ? No .....
> 
> court court game ho giya !!!! Dil Khol ker su moto ker lo BC courts
> 
> Eating tea and buscuit in Sindh High court or Punjab High court and passing out su moto with no head or tail
> 
> Sindh , center of HIV outbreak
> Sindh center of Corona outbreak
> Sindh , involved in food hoarding and budget money gone with no purchase of food per records
> 
> And courts taking Su-moto to take orders from PPP to ban CEO of PIA
> 
> 
> PPP had buget of 8 billion dollar they can't even , start up Steeles mills !!! in their own province ?


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## ghazi52

Another Hero From The PIA Crash Site, First Responder on Crash Site Who Conducted Search And Rescue For Couple of Hours Before Collapsed Due To Suffocation.. Being Treated at Model Medical Center. May Allah Grant Him Speedy Recovery.

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## pak-marine

I think its very wrong to assume that this is foreign money its mostly bribes , un taxed incomes , criminals etc etc all kinds of black dirty money which is invested in real estate projects 


Yaseen1 said:


> govt is happy as far as foreign money is coming in dollars for buying of such properties,this is one major source of foreign investment in Pakistan as we have failed to develop industries for attracting investment in other sectors


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## Baghial

Maarkhoor said:


> As per confirm reports either pilots by mistake or because of technical problem landing gear not open and they don't know....they tried landing and scratch both engines on the runway later they realized and try to climb and open landing gear but at that time due to scathing on runway both engines fail and plane stalled.




CAA-- air side dept, today...23/05/2020 did inspection of runway, they found skids of engine, at 5500m. and also 6500 m
2 times, --------- run way is about 1100m.
so the plane tried to belly land 2 times already, but its belly didnt touch ground?
while 3rd attempt was fatal..


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## Taimoor Khan

kris said:


> Sorry Mr. White skin worshipper, not everything that happens somewhere need to be correct...
> 
> Might be you are a low IQ or ill mannered person, my home is not a rat hole



Hahaha I am as white/fair as they come why would be worshipping the Europeans? Lol

Go and look around and travel a bit you moron, most airports in mega cities, you have this problem of flight paths going right above the city population.


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## ghazi52

Commandant Rangers Colonel Rafiq at the #Planecrash site.
Pakistan Always First. .

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## xeuss

Baghial said:


> CAA-- air side dept, today...23/05/2020 did inspection of runway, they found skids of engine, at 5500m. and also 6500 m
> 2 times, --------- run way is about 1100m.
> so the plane tried to belly land 2 times already, but its belly didnt touch ground?
> while 3rd attempt was fatal..



Nose gear was not down and locked.

Most likely the pilot kept pulling the nose up and bringing it down thinking that the nose gear would hold, but did not. That is when he decided to do the go around again.

He could have held the nose up all the way till the aircraft came to a stop and then lowered the nose. Aircraft would be damaged, but everyone would have survived. However, that is hindsight.


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## Enigma SIG

xeuss said:


> Nose gear was not down and locked.
> 
> Most likely the pilot kept pulling the nose up and bringing it down thinking that the nose gear would hold, but did not. That is when he decided to do the go around again.
> 
> He could have held the nose up all the way till the aircraft came to a stop and then lowered the nose. Aircraft would be damaged, but everyone would have survived. However, that is hindsight.


Pilot seemed composed until the very end where the engines quit. He did his best and I might say had the right frame of mind to decide to ditch the plane in the center of the road rather than on top of the houses which might have exacerbated the death toll.


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## Baghial

Enigma SIG said:


> Pilot seemed composed until the very end where the engines quit. He did his best and I might say had the right frame of mind to decide to ditch the plane in the center of the road rather than on top of the houses which might have exacerbated the death toll.




yes,, pilot was very confident, till the last minute......no sign of panic.. brave soul.

man vs machine scenerio......' it will be machine which failed multiple factors, , in inquiry report when evr it come out.

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## aziqbal

can some seniors summarise what happened ?

who is to Blame

I have not followed this news lately

what happened ? what were the technical issues ?


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## Myth_buster_1

PanzerKiel said:


> View attachment 634942
> 
> Balach's tags...
> 
> 
> 
> Badly burnt and *crispy* tags.



please kindly dont use this word.


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## xeuss

Enigma SIG said:


> Pilot seemed composed until the very end where the engines quit. He did his best and I might say had the right frame of mind to decide to ditch the plane in the center of the road rather than on top of the houses which might have exacerbated the death toll.



Suspect engines had quit a lot earlier. That is why it is likely the RAT deployed.


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## Shah_G

After months of being grounded these aircrafts needs to be overhauled and checked properly before flying.


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## dexter

Muhammad Zubair, one of two people who survived a plane crash in Pakistan, has described his escape from the burning aircraft after a second failed attempt to land in Karachi on the eve of the Muslim festival of Eid.


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## Imran Khan

* PIA CEO Arshad Malik meets families of plane crash victims *
Web Desk On *May 23, 2020* Last updated *May 23, 2020
KARACHI: Chief Executive Officer (CEO) of the Pakistan International Airlines (PIA) Air Marshal Arshad Malik on Saturday met with the families of those martyred in plane crash incident in Karachi, ARY NEWS reported.*

The CEO apprised the families regarding details of the incident and said that entire nation was grieved over the incident.

“We know this is a difficult phase for the families,” he said as they await confirmation of the identities of their loved ones through DNA samples.

He said that all of them who died in the incident was like children to him and he stood alongside the families of the victims in time of pain and grief.

The PIA CEO also directed the authorities to ensure complete arrangements for the families.

The relatives of the victims requested the PIA CEO to complete the DNA testing process of the unidentified bodies as soon as possible.

*Read More: 97 bodies of PIA plane crash victims recovered: DG ISPR*

It is pertinent to mention here that Sindh Health Minister Azra Fazl Pechuhu said that 97 bodies have been recovered from the site of the Pakistan International Airlines (PIA) plane crash and all of the victims were passengers of the ill-fated plane.

“The deceased included 68 men, 26 women and three children,” she said while addressing a presser flanked by Sindh government Spokesman Murtaza Wahab.

“We have sent DNA of the unidentified dead bodies to a forensic lab at University of Karachi,” she said adding that 47 relatives of the victims have submitted samples as 66 bodies have already been identified.

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## Safriz

xeuss said:


> Nose gear was not down and locked.
> 
> Most likely the pilot kept pulling the nose up and bringing it down thinking that the nose gear would hold, but did not. That is when he decided to do the go around again.
> 
> He could have held the nose up all the way till the aircraft came to a stop and then lowered the nose. Aircraft would be damaged, but everyone would have survived. However, that is hindsight.


What would pilot land without front landing gear?
Then why would pilot abort after the plane has already scraped the runway and sustained damage?
Both engines sustained damage and that caused the crash


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## Asterisk

Related thread on The Professional Pilots Rumour Network (PPRuNe) forums:
https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/632693-pia-a320-crash-karachi-12.html


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## GDP Adil Khan Niazi

Caprxl said:


> For a 2nd attempt at Landing but unfortunately as pointed out by other members as well it seems during 1st attempt both engines skid the runway causing massive damage & later hydraulic failure as well.



Okay, I agree He went for a second landing attempt and let us not doubt his intention, no would want to die in a Fast on a Mubarak Jummah along with 90-100+ passengers obviously. But I have a few questions/thoughts in mind:

If the landing gear wasn't working/opened why did he came to the runway for the first attempt because the belly landing conversation happened after he took left and uplifted the plane?

Either the ATC told him to come to the runaway or there is something mysterious.

Secondly, If he was coming to the runaway for belly landing for the first time the SOP is that the Pilot should waste all the possible extra fuel which is in the tank so that there is very little possibility of engine catching fire. But, we all know there was huge fuel present inside the tank so knowing the fact why did pilot came so low to the runaway that first the left engine strikes the ground and then the right engine strikes and then both strikes the ground at the same time which that person in the video was talking about "Teen jhatkay lagay".

If he wanted a go-round he should have been at some altitude and not exactly just above the runaway.

My gut feeling is ATC might have told him that the landing gear is opened without paying much attention which leads him to take the decision to lower the plane and the speed but as soon as left side strikes he got to know that the landing gear is still not opened and he also might have known the fact that the fuel is in access which could burn the entire plane in seconds and there is the conversation then:

ATC: Appears to be turning left

and I think that the audio should also be sent for forensic as I smell something fishy!


These are my questions and an assumption baqi Allah Pak knows the best among us, and is mein bohat behtari the "ALLAH Pak chahtay thay kay all those who departed should be there with HIM/infront of HIM at the 29th Taak Raat (Possible Laylatul Qadr) 

May the departed souls rest in peace, Ameen Sum Ameen Ya Rab-ul-Alaameen


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## Safriz

Baghial said:


> CAA-- air side dept, today...23/05/2020 did inspection of runway, they found skids of engine, at 5500m. and also 6500 m
> 2 times, --------- run way is about 1100m.
> so the plane tried to belly land 2 times already, but its belly didnt touch ground?
> while 3rd attempt was fatal..


Do you have any link or source of this news?


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## Baghial

Safriz said:


> Do you have any link or source of this news?



it was reported on news channel, ary. 5/6 hours ago!

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## Aspen

Here is my revised new theory:

1. Plane comes in for 1st landing attempt

2. There are no mechanical problems of any kind, no landing gear issue, no engine issue, no hydraulics issue, no mechanical issue of any kind before 1st landing attempt.

3. Pilots are coming in too fast and too high resulting in an unstable approach that will later require a go around. Basically the approach is rushed.

4. Pilots put gear down during landing approach. Gear comes down as normal, no problems with landing gear.

5. Unstable approach causes plane to make a hard bounce on runway. One of the survivors said the plane bounced into the air on landing followed by hard friction with sparks and smoke.

6. When the plane bounced into the air, the pilots set TOGA thrust and accidentally selected gear up first instead of flaps up. Normally you are supposed to select flaps up first and then gear up so you have time to clear the runway before retracting gear.

7. Pilots mistakenly selected gear up too early during bounce, plane momentarily sinks and engines make contact with the runway with gear retracted before TOGA thrust kicks in. Pilots should have retracted the gear a few seconds later after plane had safely aborted and cleared the runway. Basically they retracted gear too early when aborting a bounced landing causing engine to scrape the runway with gear retracted.

8. Engines scrape ground causing black skid marks

9. Pilot immediately goes around

10. Plane goes around for 2nd landing attempt

11. Plane circles in air for 7 minutes between landings

12. During these 7 minutes, hydraulic fluid and oil is rapidly leaking out from pipes that were scraped on bottom of engine. Fuel is NOT leaking out.

13. Total loss of hydraulic failure after all hydraulic fluid leaks out from ruptured hydraulic pipes on bottom of both scraped engines, flaps stop working and landing gear issues get worse. White smoke in PSPK picture is hydraulic fluid leaking out of bottom of the scraped engine.

14. Ram Air Turbine or manual gear drop deployed to solve landing gear issue.

15. All oil rapidly leaks out from oil sumps on bottom of both scraped engines, without oil both engines overheat and shut down, plane now becomes glider with no thrust. Fan blades in engine are intact which means engines were not running when plane crashed.

16. Since both engines stop working, plane rapidly loses altitude during approach and crashes.

17. Plane was only leaking hydraulic fluid and oil, not fuel so there is plenty of fuel left when plane crashes causing massive fireball.

Some observations:

1. This incident is identical to Smartlynx A320 incident in Estonia, that plane almost crashed too. Pilot saved it because he knew he had very little time to make it back to runway. Once engine scrapes runway, oil and hydraulic fluid immediately start leaking out of the bottom of the engine. Basically when engine scrapes, leakage of critical fluid starts as hydraulic fluid and oil run out in around 5 minutes. So basically you have countdown timer of 5 minutes after the engines scrape and pilot aborts to save the airplane and make it back to the runway. PIA took long route to circle back to 25L and did not make it back to runway before 5 minutes, hence hydraulic fluid and oil ran out and caused dual engine shutdown near where CCTV video was recorded just as he was on short final at last minute and he crashed before runway. I read the safety report of the Smartlynx accident. Smartlynx problem had almost identical situation to PIA after scraping engines and aborting, but pilot of Smartlynx plane knew they had only 5 minutes to make it back to runway before hydraulic fluid and oil runs out, so instead of making a long full 360 circle back to runway like PIA, they made 180 turn to do an emergency opposite direction approach and safely landed with plane intact. At Karachi, if PIA had made 180 turn to approach Runway 7R from opposite direction, it would probably have landed safely.

2. An early gear retraction during abort when plane briefly sank and engines scraped runway before TOGA thrust kicked in and plane starting climbing again explains how the plane could have contacted the runway with gear up. It simply is not possible to approach the runway and forget to extend landing gear. There are too many alarms reminding them, pilots would never have made this mistake. However, if they aborted after a hard bounce and retracted gear too early before TOGA thrust kicked in, there would not have been any alarm for this. When plane sank to contact runway after bounce before TOGA thrust spooled up, engines scraped the runway while gear was prematurely retracted.

I was reading accident report of Smartlynx incident in Estonia which is very similar to PIA. There are some differences in steps 1-10, Smartlynx is doing touch and go practice and has a software issue, PIA is different because it was completely normal with no issues before 1st landing. But from step 11 to the end, it is exact same situation for both PIA and Smartlynx when both pilots select TOGA, retract gear, plane sinks, engine scrapes, and the rest all the way to the end.

PIA flight could have been saved if they followed what pilots did in Smartlynx incident:

In Smartlynx accident:

Smartlynx is doing touch and go practice training flights
During training flight, Smartlynx has normal landing
Smartlynx plane has incorrect software setting
Pilot cannot get plane to increase thrust at all after touchdown, plane does not respond to pilot’s command inputs to raise nose to takeoff again because of incorrect software setting
Captain takes full control from other pilot
TOGA thrust does not work at all, no response from plane
Captain quickly decides to use trim to chance pitch to get airborne as he is running out of runway and TOGA is not working because of software glitch.
Plane briefly lifts off ground and gear retraction is selected too early
Plane briefly sinks back to ground, landing gear is in process of being retracted, doors have not yet closed.
When plane briefly sinks back to ground, landing gear doors which have not fully closed are ripped off and engines scrape the ground.
********PIA SHOULD HAVE FOLLOWED THE STEPS THAT SMARTLYNX DID BELOW********
Smartlynx gets airborne and realizes that they must return to airport IMMEDIATELY because their hydraulic fluid and oil is rapidly leaking after engine scraped ground and they must make it back to airport before all hydraulic fluid and oil runs out, otherwise their engines will both shut down. Smartlynx tries to make it back to airport as quickly as possible as they only have 5 minutes before leaking hydraulic fluid and oil runs out which will trigger engine overheat and shutdown.
Smartlynx immediately starts making a rapid 180 emergency turn to land on same runway from opposite direction (PIA’s mistake was fatal error that they took long route and did a 360 back to 25L, PIA did not have enough time for this, they only had 5 minutes because of leaking fluid)
After Smartlynx makes 180 turn back to land on runway from opposite direction, both engines shutdown midair as all oil runs out, hydraulic fluid also runs out and disables flaps.
Smartlynx glides to runway and barely lands at the airport hitting the runway lights, but plane is intact and everyone survives.
PIA and Smartlynx flight both only had 5 minutes to make it back to runway since both scraped engine on ground and started rapidly leaking hydraulic fluid and oil from bottom of the engine. Both engines shut down while flying in PIA and Smartlynx when oil ran out. The big difference why Smartlynx safely glided to runway in emergency landing while PIA crashed is that in both PIA and Smartlynx, the hydraulic fluid and oil takes the same amount of time to leak, the plane only has 5 minutes to make it back to runway before fluids run out from leakage. Smartlynx decided to do very fast and quick emergency 180 turn back to runway from opposite direction which took less than 5 minutes. PIA decided to do 360 circle back to 25L which took more than 5 minutes. Both engines shutdown in PIA and Smartlynx, but since Smartlynx 180 turn took less time, it was much closer to the runway when its engines shutdown than PIA which farther away from runway when its engines shutdown because PIA was doing a longer 360 circle. In the 5 minutes, before hydraulic fluids and oil ran out, both PIA and Smartlynx had the same amount of time, 5 minutes. Smartlynx 180 turn back took less time than PIA’s 360 turn so Smartlynx got closer to the runway before dual engine failure and was able to glide almost all the way to the airport where they hit the runway lights. Everyone on Smartlynx survived and Smartlynx plane was intact. PIA 360 circle to 25L took too long and they ran out of 5 minute window, when their oil ran out and both engines shut down, they were not close enough to the runway to do a glide all the way like Smartlynx and crashed during the glide at Model Colony.

Smartlynx accident report below:

https://www.aviation-accidents.net/report-download.php?id=683

https://www.flightglobal.com/safety...ursed-home-after-runway-strike/135161.article

https://www.aviation-accidents.net/smartlynx-airlines-airbus-a320-214-es-san/

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## Baghial

Aspen said:


> Here is my revised new theory:
> 
> 1. Plane comes in for 1st landing attempt
> 
> 2. There are no mechanical problems of any kind, no landing gear issue, no engine issue, no hydraulics issue, no mechanical issue of any kind before 1st landing attempt.
> 
> 3. Pilots are coming in too fast and too high resulting in an unstable approach that will later require a go around. Basically the approach is rushed.
> 
> 4. Pilots put gear down during landing approach. Gear comes down as normal, no problems with landing gear.
> 
> 5. Unstable approach causes plane to make a hard bounce on runway. One of the survivors said the plane bounced into the air on landing followed by hard friction with sparks and smoke.
> 
> 6. When the plane bounced into the air, the pilots set TOGA thrust and accidentally selected gear up first instead of flaps up. Normally you are supposed to select flaps up first and then gear up so you have time to clear the runway before retracting gear.
> 
> 7. Pilots mistakenly selected gear up too early during bounce, plane momentarily sinks and engines make contact with the runway with gear retracted before TOGA thrust kicks in. Pilots should have retracted the gear a few seconds later after plane had safely aborted and cleared the runway. Basically they retracted gear too early when aborting a bounced landing causing engine to scrape the runway with gear retracted.
> 
> 8. Engines scrape ground causing black skid marks
> 
> 9. Pilot immediately goes around
> 
> 10. Plane goes around for 2nd landing attempt
> 
> 11. Plane circles in air for 7 minutes between landings
> 
> 12. During these 7 minutes, hydraulic fluid and oil is rapidly leaking out from pipes that were scraped on bottom of engine. Fuel is NOT leaking out.
> 
> 13. Total loss of hydraulic failure after all hydraulic fluid leaks out from ruptured hydraulic pipes on bottom of both scraped engines, flaps stop working and landing gear issues get worse. White smoke in PSPK picture is hydraulic fluid leaking out of bottom of the scraped engine.
> 
> 14. Ram Air Turbine or manual gear drop deployed to solve landing gear issue.
> 
> 15. All oil rapidly leaks out from oil sumps on bottom of both scraped engines, without oil both engines overheat and shut down, plane now becomes glider with no thrust. Fan blades in engine are intact which means engines were not running when plane crashed.
> 
> 16. Since both engines stop working, plane rapidly loses altitude during approach and crashes.
> 
> 17. Plane was only leaking hydraulic fluid and oil, not fuel so there is plenty of fuel left when plane crashes causing massive fireball.
> 
> Some observations:
> 
> 1. This incident is identical to Smartlynx A320 incident in Estonia, that plane almost crashed too. Pilot saved it because he knew he had very little time to make it back to runway. Once engine scrapes runway, oil and hydraulic fluid immediately start leaking out of the bottom of the engine. Basically when engine scrapes, leakage of critical fluid starts as hydraulic fluid and oil run out in around 5 minutes. So basically you have countdown timer of 5 minutes after the engines scrape and pilot aborts to save the airplane and make it back to the runway. PIA took long route to circle back to 25L and did not make it back to runway before 5 minutes, hence hydraulic fluid and oil ran out and caused dual engine shutdown near where CCTV video was recorded just as he was on short final at last minute and he crashed before runway. I read the safety report of the Smartlynx accident. Smartlynx problem had almost identical situation to PIA after scraping engines and aborting, but pilot of Smartlynx plane knew they had only 5 minutes to make it back to runway before hydraulic fluid and oil runs out, so instead of making a long full 360 circle back to runway like PIA, they made 180 turn to do an emergency opposite direction approach and safely landed with plane intact. At Karachi, if PIA had made 180 turn to approach Runway 7R from opposite direction, it would probably have landed safely.
> 
> 2. An early gear retraction during abort when plane briefly sank and engines scraped runway before TOGA thrust kicked in and plane starting climbing again explains how the plane could have contacted the runway with gear up. It simply is not possible to approach the runway and forget to extend landing gear. There are too many alarms reminding them, pilots would never have made this mistake. However, if they aborted after a hard bounce and retracted gear too early before TOGA thrust kicked in, there would not have been any alarm for this. When plane sank to contact runway after bounce before TOGA thrust spooled up, engines scraped the runway while gear was prematurely retracted.
> 
> I was reading accident report of Smartlynx incident in Estonia which is very similar to PIA. There are some differences in steps 1-10, Smartlynx is doing touch and go practice and has a software issue, PIA is different because it was completely normal with no issues before 1st landing. But from step 11 to the end, it is exact same situation for both PIA and Smartlynx when both pilots select TOGA, retract gear, plane sinks, engine scrapes, and the rest all the way to the end.
> 
> PIA flight could have been saved if they followed what pilots did in Smartlynx incident:
> 
> In Smartlynx accident:
> 
> Smartlynx is doing touch and go practice training flights
> During training flight, Smartlynx has normal landing
> Smartlynx plane has incorrect software setting
> Pilot cannot get plane to increase thrust at all after touchdown, plane does not respond to pilot’s command inputs to raise nose to takeoff again because of incorrect software setting
> Captain takes full control from other pilot
> TOGA thrust does not work at all, no response from plane
> Captain quickly decides to use trim to chance pitch to get airborne as he is running out of runway and TOGA is not working because of software glitch.
> Plane briefly lifts off ground and gear retraction is selected too early
> Plane briefly sinks back to ground, landing gear is in process of being retracted, doors have not yet closed.
> When plane briefly sinks back to ground, landing gear doors which have not fully closed are ripped off and engines scrape the ground.
> ********PIA SHOULD HAVE FOLLOWED THE STEPS THAT SMARTLYNX DID BELOW********
> Smartlynx gets airborne and realizes that they must return to airport IMMEDIATELY because their hydraulic fluid and oil is rapidly leaking after engine scraped ground and they must make it back to airport before all hydraulic fluid and oil runs out, otherwise their engines will both shut down. Smartlynx tries to make it back to airport as quickly as possible as they only have 5 minutes before leaking hydraulic fluid and oil runs out which will trigger engine overheat and shutdown.
> Smartlynx immediately starts making a rapid 180 emergency turn to land on same runway from opposite direction (PIA’s mistake was fatal error that they took long route and did a 360 back to 25L, PIA did not have enough time for this, they only had 5 minutes because of leaking fluid)
> After Smartlynx makes 180 turn back to land on runway from opposite direction, both engines shutdown midair as all oil runs out, hydraulic fluid also runs out and disables flaps.
> Smartlynx glides to runway and barely lands at the airport hitting the runway lights, but plane is intact and everyone survives.
> PIA and Smartlynx flight both only had 5 minutes to make it back to runway since both scraped engine on ground and started rapidly leaking hydraulic fluid and oil from bottom of the engine. Both engines shut down while flying in PIA and Smartlynx when oil ran out. The big difference why Smartlynx safely glided to runway in emergency landing while PIA crashed is that in both PIA and Smartlynx, the hydraulic fluid and oil takes the same amount of time to leak, the plane only has 5 minutes to make it back to runway before fluids run out from leakage. Smartlynx decided to do very fast and quick emergency 180 turn back to runway from opposite direction which took less than 5 minutes. PIA decided to do 360 circle back to 25L which took more than 5 minutes. Both engines shutdown in PIA and Smartlynx, but since Smartlynx 180 turn took less time, it was much closer to the runway when its engines shutdown than PIA which farther away from runway when its engines shutdown because PIA was doing a longer 360 circle. In the 5 minutes, before hydraulic fluids and oil ran out, both PIA and Smartlynx had the same amount of time, 5 minutes. Smartlynx 180 turn back took less time than PIA’s 360 turn so Smartlynx got closer to the runway before dual engine failure and was able to glide almost all the way to the airport where they hit the runway lights. Everyone on Smartlynx survived and Smartlynx plane was intact. PIA 360 circle to 25L took too long and they ran out of 5 minute window, when their oil ran out and both engines shut down, they were not close enough to the runway to do a glide all the way like Smartlynx and crashed during the glide at Model Colony.
> 
> Smartlynx accident report below:
> 
> https://www.aviation-accidents.net/report-download.php?id=683
> 
> https://www.flightglobal.com/safety...ursed-home-after-runway-strike/135161.article
> 
> https://www.aviation-accidents.net/smartlynx-airlines-airbus-a320-214-es-san/




you should watch todays tv programme , very disturbings news about the pilots , misconduct, failure to follow procedure, emergency protocols,

http://www.unewstv.com/175548/muqabil-eid-ke-chaand-ka-masla-23rd-may-2020

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## xeuss

Aspen said:


> Here is my revised new theory:
> 
> 1. Plane comes in for 1st landing attempt
> 
> 2. There are no mechanical problems of any kind, no landing gear issue, no engine issue, no hydraulics issue, no mechanical issue of any kind before 1st landing attempt.
> 
> 3. Pilots are coming in too fast and too high resulting in an unstable approach that will later require a go around. Basically the approach is rushed.
> 
> 4. Pilots put gear down during landing approach. Gear comes down as normal, no problems with landing gear.
> 
> 5. Unstable approach causes plane to make a hard bounce on runway. One of the survivors said the plane bounced into the air on landing followed by hard friction with sparks and smoke.
> 
> 6. When the plane bounced into the air, the pilots set TOGA thrust and accidentally selected gear up first instead of flaps up. Normally you are supposed to select flaps up first and then gear up so you have time to clear the runway before retracting gear.
> 
> 7. Pilots mistakenly selected gear up too early during bounce, plane momentarily sinks and engines make contact with the runway with gear retracted before TOGA thrust kicks in. Pilots should have retracted the gear a few seconds later after plane had safely aborted and cleared the runway. Basically they retracted gear too early when aborting a bounced landing causing engine to scrape the runway with gear retracted.
> 
> 8. Engines scrape ground causing black skid marks
> 
> 9. Pilot immediately goes around
> 
> 10. Plane goes around for 2nd landing attempt
> 
> 11. Plane circles in air for 7 minutes between landings
> 
> 12. During these 7 minutes, hydraulic fluid and oil is rapidly leaking out from pipes that were scraped on bottom of engine. Fuel is NOT leaking out.
> 
> 13. Total loss of hydraulic failure after all hydraulic fluid leaks out from ruptured hydraulic pipes on bottom of both scraped engines, flaps stop working and landing gear issues get worse. White smoke in PSPK picture is hydraulic fluid leaking out of bottom of the scraped engine.
> 
> 14. Ram Air Turbine or manual gear drop deployed to solve landing gear issue.
> 
> 15. All oil rapidly leaks out from oil sumps on bottom of both scraped engines, without oil both engines overheat and shut down, plane now becomes glider with no thrust. Fan blades in engine are intact which means engines were not running when plane crashed.
> 
> 16. Since both engines stop working, plane rapidly loses altitude during approach and crashes.
> 
> 17. Plane was only leaking hydraulic fluid and oil, not fuel so there is plenty of fuel left when plane crashes causing massive fireball.
> 
> Some observations:
> 
> 1. This incident is identical to Smartlynx A320 incident in Estonia, that plane almost crashed too. Pilot saved it because he knew he had very little time to make it back to runway. Once engine scrapes runway, oil and hydraulic fluid immediately start leaking out of the bottom of the engine. Basically when engine scrapes, leakage of critical fluid starts as hydraulic fluid and oil run out in around 5 minutes. So basically you have countdown timer of 5 minutes after the engines scrape and pilot aborts to save the airplane and make it back to the runway. PIA took long route to circle back to 25L and did not make it back to runway before 5 minutes, hence hydraulic fluid and oil ran out and caused dual engine shutdown near where CCTV video was recorded just as he was on short final at last minute and he crashed before runway. I read the safety report of the Smartlynx accident. Smartlynx problem had almost identical situation to PIA after scraping engines and aborting, but pilot of Smartlynx plane knew they had only 5 minutes to make it back to runway before hydraulic fluid and oil runs out, so instead of making a long full 360 circle back to runway like PIA, they made 180 turn to do an emergency opposite direction approach and safely landed with plane intact. At Karachi, if PIA had made 180 turn to approach Runway 7R from opposite direction, it would probably have landed safely.
> 
> 2. An early gear retraction during abort when plane briefly sank and engines scraped runway before TOGA thrust kicked in and plane starting climbing again explains how the plane could have contacted the runway with gear up. It simply is not possible to approach the runway and forget to extend landing gear. There are too many alarms reminding them, pilots would never have made this mistake. However, if they aborted after a hard bounce and retracted gear too early before TOGA thrust kicked in, there would not have been any alarm for this. When plane sank to contact runway after bounce before TOGA thrust spooled up, engines scraped the runway while gear was prematurely retracted.
> 
> I was reading accident report of Smartlynx incident in Estonia which is very similar to PIA. There are some differences in steps 1-10, Smartlynx is doing touch and go practice and has a software issue, PIA is different because it was completely normal with no issues before 1st landing. But from step 11 to the end, it is exact same situation for both PIA and Smartlynx when both pilots select TOGA, retract gear, plane sinks, engine scrapes, and the rest all the way to the end.
> 
> PIA flight could have been saved if they followed what pilots did in Smartlynx incident:
> 
> In Smartlynx accident:
> 
> Smartlynx is doing touch and go practice training flights
> During training flight, Smartlynx has normal landing
> Smartlynx plane has incorrect software setting
> Pilot cannot get plane to increase thrust at all after touchdown, plane does not respond to pilot’s command inputs to raise nose to takeoff again because of incorrect software setting
> Captain takes full control from other pilot
> TOGA thrust does not work at all, no response from plane
> Captain quickly decides to use trim to chance pitch to get airborne as he is running out of runway and TOGA is not working because of software glitch.
> Plane briefly lifts off ground and gear retraction is selected too early
> Plane briefly sinks back to ground, landing gear is in process of being retracted, doors have not yet closed.
> When plane briefly sinks back to ground, landing gear doors which have not fully closed are ripped off and engines scrape the ground.
> ********PIA SHOULD HAVE FOLLOWED THE STEPS THAT SMARTLYNX DID BELOW********
> Smartlynx gets airborne and realizes that they must return to airport IMMEDIATELY because their hydraulic fluid and oil is rapidly leaking after engine scraped ground and they must make it back to airport before all hydraulic fluid and oil runs out, otherwise their engines will both shut down. Smartlynx tries to make it back to airport as quickly as possible as they only have 5 minutes before leaking hydraulic fluid and oil runs out which will trigger engine overheat and shutdown.
> Smartlynx immediately starts making a rapid 180 emergency turn to land on same runway from opposite direction (PIA’s mistake was fatal error that they took long route and did a 360 back to 25L, PIA did not have enough time for this, they only had 5 minutes because of leaking fluid)
> After Smartlynx makes 180 turn back to land on runway from opposite direction, both engines shutdown midair as all oil runs out, hydraulic fluid also runs out and disables flaps.
> Smartlynx glides to runway and barely lands at the airport hitting the runway lights, but plane is intact and everyone survives.
> PIA and Smartlynx flight both only had 5 minutes to make it back to runway since both scraped engine on ground and started rapidly leaking hydraulic fluid and oil from bottom of the engine. Both engines shut down while flying in PIA and Smartlynx when oil ran out. The big difference why Smartlynx safely glided to runway in emergency landing while PIA crashed is that in both PIA and Smartlynx, the hydraulic fluid and oil takes the same amount of time to leak, the plane only has 5 minutes to make it back to runway before fluids run out from leakage. Smartlynx decided to do very fast and quick emergency 180 turn back to runway from opposite direction which took less than 5 minutes. PIA decided to do 360 circle back to 25L which took more than 5 minutes. Both engines shutdown in PIA and Smartlynx, but since Smartlynx 180 turn took less time, it was much closer to the runway when its engines shutdown than PIA which farther away from runway when its engines shutdown because PIA was doing a longer 360 circle. In the 5 minutes, before hydraulic fluids and oil ran out, both PIA and Smartlynx had the same amount of time, 5 minutes. Smartlynx 180 turn back took less time than PIA’s 360 turn so Smartlynx got closer to the runway before dual engine failure and was able to glide almost all the way to the airport where they hit the runway lights. Everyone on Smartlynx survived and Smartlynx plane was intact. PIA 360 circle to 25L took too long and they ran out of 5 minute window, when their oil ran out and both engines shut down, they were not close enough to the runway to do a glide all the way like Smartlynx and crashed during the glide at Model Colony.
> 
> Smartlynx accident report below:
> 
> https://www.aviation-accidents.net/report-download.php?id=683
> 
> https://www.flightglobal.com/safety...ursed-home-after-runway-strike/135161.article
> 
> https://www.aviation-accidents.net/smartlynx-airlines-airbus-a320-214-es-san/



There are a lot of errors in your post. Sorry!!

If you hear the ATC recording, there are chimes that indicate "gear unsafe". Basically gear extended but did not lock. Skid marks on engine indicate the nose gear was not locked (aircraft was nose down). Also, RAT has no relation to landing gear. It is auto deployed when both engines are shut.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Aspen said:


> Here is my revised new theory:
> 
> 1. Plane comes in for 1st landing attempt
> 
> 2. There are no mechanical problems of any kind, no landing gear issue, no engine issue, no hydraulics issue, no mechanical issue of any kind before 1st landing attempt.
> 
> 3. Pilots are coming in too fast and too high resulting in an unstable approach that will later require a go around. Basically the approach is rushed.
> 
> 4. Pilots put gear down during landing approach. Gear comes down as normal, no problems with landing gear.
> 
> 5. Unstable approach causes plane to make a hard bounce on runway. One of the survivors said the plane bounced into the air on landing followed by hard friction with sparks and smoke.
> 
> 6. When the plane bounced into the air, the pilots set TOGA thrust and accidentally selected gear up first instead of flaps up. Normally you are supposed to select flaps up first and then gear up so you have time to clear the runway before retracting gear.
> 
> 7. Pilots mistakenly selected gear up too early during bounce, plane momentarily sinks and engines make contact with the runway with gear retracted before TOGA thrust kicks in. Pilots should have retracted the gear a few seconds later after plane had safely aborted and cleared the runway. Basically they retracted gear too early when aborting a bounced landing causing engine to scrape the runway with gear retracted.
> 
> 8. Engines scrape ground causing black skid marks
> 
> 9. Pilot immediately goes around
> 
> 10. Plane goes around for 2nd landing attempt
> 
> 11. Plane circles in air for 7 minutes between landings
> 
> 12. During these 7 minutes, hydraulic fluid and oil is rapidly leaking out from pipes that were scraped on bottom of engine. Fuel is NOT leaking out.
> 
> 13. Total loss of hydraulic failure after all hydraulic fluid leaks out from ruptured hydraulic pipes on bottom of both scraped engines, flaps stop working and landing gear issues get worse. White smoke in PSPK picture is hydraulic fluid leaking out of bottom of the scraped engine.
> 
> 14. Ram Air Turbine or manual gear drop deployed to solve landing gear issue.
> 
> 15. All oil rapidly leaks out from oil sumps on bottom of both scraped engines, without oil both engines overheat and shut down, plane now becomes glider with no thrust. Fan blades in engine are intact which means engines were not running when plane crashed.
> 
> 16. Since both engines stop working, plane rapidly loses altitude during approach and crashes.
> 
> 17. Plane was only leaking hydraulic fluid and oil, not fuel so there is plenty of fuel left when plane crashes causing massive fireball.
> 
> Some observations:
> 
> 1. This incident is identical to Smartlynx A320 incident in Estonia, that plane almost crashed too. Pilot saved it because he knew he had very little time to make it back to runway. Once engine scrapes runway, oil and hydraulic fluid immediately start leaking out of the bottom of the engine. Basically when engine scrapes, leakage of critical fluid starts as hydraulic fluid and oil run out in around 5 minutes. So basically you have countdown timer of 5 minutes after the engines scrape and pilot aborts to save the airplane and make it back to the runway. PIA took long route to circle back to 25L and did not make it back to runway before 5 minutes, hence hydraulic fluid and oil ran out and caused dual engine shutdown near where CCTV video was recorded just as he was on short final at last minute and he crashed before runway. I read the safety report of the Smartlynx accident. Smartlynx problem had almost identical situation to PIA after scraping engines and aborting, but pilot of Smartlynx plane knew they had only 5 minutes to make it back to runway before hydraulic fluid and oil runs out, so instead of making a long full 360 circle back to runway like PIA, they made 180 turn to do an emergency opposite direction approach and safely landed with plane intact. At Karachi, if PIA had made 180 turn to approach Runway 7R from opposite direction, it would probably have landed safely.
> 
> 2. An early gear retraction during abort when plane briefly sank and engines scraped runway before TOGA thrust kicked in and plane starting climbing again explains how the plane could have contacted the runway with gear up. It simply is not possible to approach the runway and forget to extend landing gear. There are too many alarms reminding them, pilots would never have made this mistake. However, if they aborted after a hard bounce and retracted gear too early before TOGA thrust kicked in, there would not have been any alarm for this. When plane sank to contact runway after bounce before TOGA thrust spooled up, engines scraped the runway while gear was prematurely retracted.
> 
> I was reading accident report of Smartlynx incident in Estonia which is very similar to PIA. There are some differences in steps 1-10, Smartlynx is doing touch and go practice and has a software issue, PIA is different because it was completely normal with no issues before 1st landing. But from step 11 to the end, it is exact same situation for both PIA and Smartlynx when both pilots select TOGA, retract gear, plane sinks, engine scrapes, and the rest all the way to the end.
> 
> PIA flight could have been saved if they followed what pilots did in Smartlynx incident:
> 
> In Smartlynx accident:
> 
> Smartlynx is doing touch and go practice training flights
> During training flight, Smartlynx has normal landing
> Smartlynx plane has incorrect software setting
> Pilot cannot get plane to increase thrust at all after touchdown, plane does not respond to pilot’s command inputs to raise nose to takeoff again because of incorrect software setting
> Captain takes full control from other pilot
> TOGA thrust does not work at all, no response from plane
> Captain quickly decides to use trim to chance pitch to get airborne as he is running out of runway and TOGA is not working because of software glitch.
> Plane briefly lifts off ground and gear retraction is selected too early
> Plane briefly sinks back to ground, landing gear is in process of being retracted, doors have not yet closed.
> When plane briefly sinks back to ground, landing gear doors which have not fully closed are ripped off and engines scrape the ground.
> ********PIA SHOULD HAVE FOLLOWED THE STEPS THAT SMARTLYNX DID BELOW********
> Smartlynx gets airborne and realizes that they must return to airport IMMEDIATELY because their hydraulic fluid and oil is rapidly leaking after engine scraped ground and they must make it back to airport before all hydraulic fluid and oil runs out, otherwise their engines will both shut down. Smartlynx tries to make it back to airport as quickly as possible as they only have 5 minutes before leaking hydraulic fluid and oil runs out which will trigger engine overheat and shutdown.
> Smartlynx immediately starts making a rapid 180 emergency turn to land on same runway from opposite direction (PIA’s mistake was fatal error that they took long route and did a 360 back to 25L, PIA did not have enough time for this, they only had 5 minutes because of leaking fluid)
> After Smartlynx makes 180 turn back to land on runway from opposite direction, both engines shutdown midair as all oil runs out, hydraulic fluid also runs out and disables flaps.
> Smartlynx glides to runway and barely lands at the airport hitting the runway lights, but plane is intact and everyone survives.
> PIA and Smartlynx flight both only had 5 minutes to make it back to runway since both scraped engine on ground and started rapidly leaking hydraulic fluid and oil from bottom of the engine. Both engines shut down while flying in PIA and Smartlynx when oil ran out. The big difference why Smartlynx safely glided to runway in emergency landing while PIA crashed is that in both PIA and Smartlynx, the hydraulic fluid and oil takes the same amount of time to leak, the plane only has 5 minutes to make it back to runway before fluids run out from leakage. Smartlynx decided to do very fast and quick emergency 180 turn back to runway from opposite direction which took less than 5 minutes. PIA decided to do 360 circle back to 25L which took more than 5 minutes. Both engines shutdown in PIA and Smartlynx, but since Smartlynx 180 turn took less time, it was much closer to the runway when its engines shutdown than PIA which farther away from runway when its engines shutdown because PIA was doing a longer 360 circle. In the 5 minutes, before hydraulic fluids and oil ran out, both PIA and Smartlynx had the same amount of time, 5 minutes. Smartlynx 180 turn back took less time than PIA’s 360 turn so Smartlynx got closer to the runway before dual engine failure and was able to glide almost all the way to the airport where they hit the runway lights. Everyone on Smartlynx survived and Smartlynx plane was intact. PIA 360 circle to 25L took too long and they ran out of 5 minute window, when their oil ran out and both engines shut down, they were not close enough to the runway to do a glide all the way like Smartlynx and crashed during the glide at Model Colony.
> 
> Smartlynx accident report below:
> 
> https://www.aviation-accidents.net/report-download.php?id=683
> 
> https://www.flightglobal.com/safety...ursed-home-after-runway-strike/135161.article
> 
> https://www.aviation-accidents.net/smartlynx-airlines-airbus-a320-214-es-san/


Please do not try to be someone you are not. 
You are not a pilot or an air accident investigator. 

The correct call out for a standard go around is same as take off. Gears then flaps then slats. This aircraft had already done 2 missisd approaches. One of them indicates that the Engines touched the goudt at 4700 and 5000 ft down the line. The Pilots might have thought they could not stop in time hence initiated go around. 25L is 10000 ft only so touching half way down could have ment this aircraft would have hit lights and other equiptment at the end of the runway.

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## HAIDER

Aspen said:


> Here is my revised new theory:
> 
> 1. Plane comes in for 1st landing attempt
> 
> 2. There are no mechanical problems of any kind, no landing gear issue, no engine issue, no hydraulics issue, no mechanical issue of any kind before 1st landing attempt.
> 
> 3. Pilots are coming in too fast and too high resulting in an unstable approach that will later require a go around. Basically the approach is rushed.
> 
> 4. Pilots put gear down during landing approach. Gear comes down as normal, no problems with landing gear.
> 
> 5. Unstable approach causes plane to make a hard bounce on runway. One of the survivors said the plane bounced into the air on landing followed by hard friction with sparks and smoke.
> 
> 6. When the plane bounced into the air, the pilots set TOGA thrust and accidentally selected gear up first instead of flaps up. Normally you are supposed to select flaps up first and then gear up so you have time to clear the runway before retracting gear.
> 
> 7. Pilots mistakenly selected gear up too early during bounce, plane momentarily sinks and engines make contact with the runway with gear retracted before TOGA thrust kicks in. Pilots should have retracted the gear a few seconds later after plane had safely aborted and cleared the runway. Basically they retracted gear too early when aborting a bounced landing causing engine to scrape the runway with gear retracted.
> 
> 8. Engines scrape ground causing black skid marks
> 
> 9. Pilot immediately goes around
> 
> 10. Plane goes around for 2nd landing attempt
> 
> 11. Plane circles in air for 7 minutes between landings
> 
> 12. During these 7 minutes, hydraulic fluid and oil is rapidly leaking out from pipes that were scraped on bottom of engine. Fuel is NOT leaking out.
> 
> 13. Total loss of hydraulic failure after all hydraulic fluid leaks out from ruptured hydraulic pipes on bottom of both scraped engines, flaps stop working and landing gear issues get worse. White smoke in PSPK picture is hydraulic fluid leaking out of bottom of the scraped engine.
> 
> 14. Ram Air Turbine or manual gear drop deployed to solve landing gear issue.
> 
> 15. All oil rapidly leaks out from oil sumps on bottom of both scraped engines, without oil both engines overheat and shut down, plane now becomes glider with no thrust. Fan blades in engine are intact which means engines were not running when plane crashed.
> 
> 16. Since both engines stop working, plane rapidly loses altitude during approach and crashes.
> 
> 17. Plane was only leaking hydraulic fluid and oil, not fuel so there is plenty of fuel left when plane crashes causing massive fireball.
> 
> Some observations:
> 
> 1. This incident is identical to Smartlynx A320 incident in Estonia, that plane almost crashed too. Pilot saved it because he knew he had very little time to make it back to runway. Once engine scrapes runway, oil and hydraulic fluid immediately start leaking out of the bottom of the engine. Basically when engine scrapes, leakage of critical fluid starts as hydraulic fluid and oil run out in around 5 minutes. So basically you have countdown timer of 5 minutes after the engines scrape and pilot aborts to save the airplane and make it back to the runway. PIA took long route to circle back to 25L and did not make it back to runway before 5 minutes, hence hydraulic fluid and oil ran out and caused dual engine shutdown near where CCTV video was recorded just as he was on short final at last minute and he crashed before runway. I read the safety report of the Smartlynx accident. Smartlynx problem had almost identical situation to PIA after scraping engines and aborting, but pilot of Smartlynx plane knew they had only 5 minutes to make it back to runway before hydraulic fluid and oil runs out, so instead of making a long full 360 circle back to runway like PIA, they made 180 turn to do an emergency opposite direction approach and safely landed with plane intact. At Karachi, if PIA had made 180 turn to approach Runway 7R from opposite direction, it would probably have landed safely.
> 
> 2. An early gear retraction during abort when plane briefly sank and engines scraped runway before TOGA thrust kicked in and plane starting climbing again explains how the plane could have contacted the runway with gear up. It simply is not possible to approach the runway and forget to extend landing gear. There are too many alarms reminding them, pilots would never have made this mistake. However, if they aborted after a hard bounce and retracted gear too early before TOGA thrust kicked in, there would not have been any alarm for this. When plane sank to contact runway after bounce before TOGA thrust spooled up, engines scraped the runway while gear was prematurely retracted.
> 
> I was reading accident report of Smartlynx incident in Estonia which is very similar to PIA. There are some differences in steps 1-10, Smartlynx is doing touch and go practice and has a software issue, PIA is different because it was completely normal with no issues before 1st landing. But from step 11 to the end, it is exact same situation for both PIA and Smartlynx when both pilots select TOGA, retract gear, plane sinks, engine scrapes, and the rest all the way to the end.
> 
> PIA flight could have been saved if they followed what pilots did in Smartlynx incident:
> 
> In Smartlynx accident:
> 
> Smartlynx is doing touch and go practice training flights
> During training flight, Smartlynx has normal landing
> Smartlynx plane has incorrect software setting
> Pilot cannot get plane to increase thrust at all after touchdown, plane does not respond to pilot’s command inputs to raise nose to takeoff again because of incorrect software setting
> Captain takes full control from other pilot
> TOGA thrust does not work at all, no response from plane
> Captain quickly decides to use trim to chance pitch to get airborne as he is running out of runway and TOGA is not working because of software glitch.
> Plane briefly lifts off ground and gear retraction is selected too early
> Plane briefly sinks back to ground, landing gear is in process of being retracted, doors have not yet closed.
> When plane briefly sinks back to ground, landing gear doors which have not fully closed are ripped off and engines scrape the ground.
> ********PIA SHOULD HAVE FOLLOWED THE STEPS THAT SMARTLYNX DID BELOW********
> Smartlynx gets airborne and realizes that they must return to airport IMMEDIATELY because their hydraulic fluid and oil is rapidly leaking after engine scraped ground and they must make it back to airport before all hydraulic fluid and oil runs out, otherwise their engines will both shut down. Smartlynx tries to make it back to airport as quickly as possible as they only have 5 minutes before leaking hydraulic fluid and oil runs out which will trigger engine overheat and shutdown.
> Smartlynx immediately starts making a rapid 180 emergency turn to land on same runway from opposite direction (PIA’s mistake was fatal error that they took long route and did a 360 back to 25L, PIA did not have enough time for this, they only had 5 minutes because of leaking fluid)
> After Smartlynx makes 180 turn back to land on runway from opposite direction, both engines shutdown midair as all oil runs out, hydraulic fluid also runs out and disables flaps.
> Smartlynx glides to runway and barely lands at the airport hitting the runway lights, but plane is intact and everyone survives.
> PIA and Smartlynx flight both only had 5 minutes to make it back to runway since both scraped engine on ground and started rapidly leaking hydraulic fluid and oil from bottom of the engine. Both engines shut down while flying in PIA and Smartlynx when oil ran out. The big difference why Smartlynx safely glided to runway in emergency landing while PIA crashed is that in both PIA and Smartlynx, the hydraulic fluid and oil takes the same amount of time to leak, the plane only has 5 minutes to make it back to runway before fluids run out from leakage. Smartlynx decided to do very fast and quick emergency 180 turn back to runway from opposite direction which took less than 5 minutes. PIA decided to do 360 circle back to 25L which took more than 5 minutes. Both engines shutdown in PIA and Smartlynx, but since Smartlynx 180 turn took less time, it was much closer to the runway when its engines shutdown than PIA which farther away from runway when its engines shutdown because PIA was doing a longer 360 circle. In the 5 minutes, before hydraulic fluids and oil ran out, both PIA and Smartlynx had the same amount of time, 5 minutes. Smartlynx 180 turn back took less time than PIA’s 360 turn so Smartlynx got closer to the runway before dual engine failure and was able to glide almost all the way to the airport where they hit the runway lights. Everyone on Smartlynx survived and Smartlynx plane was intact. PIA 360 circle to 25L took too long and they ran out of 5 minute window, when their oil ran out and both engines shut down, they were not close enough to the runway to do a glide all the way like Smartlynx and crashed during the glide at Model Colony.
> 
> Smartlynx accident report below:
> 
> https://www.aviation-accidents.net/report-download.php?id=683
> 
> https://www.flightglobal.com/safety...ursed-home-after-runway-strike/135161.article
> 
> https://www.aviation-accidents.net/smartlynx-airlines-airbus-a320-214-es-san/


@Safriz ...did you post the picture both engine damaged from bottom due to tarmac friction ???..was it landing gear damaged too and pilot ask for belly landing clearance ??


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## Safriz

HAIDER said:


> @Safriz ...did you post the picture both engine damaged from bottom due to tarmac friction ???..was it landing gear damaged too and pilot ask for belly landing clearance ??
















Yes.
Both engines showing significant damage on the bottom.
How and why the engines scraped the runway on the first attempt is not known and hopefully investigation report will reveal this.


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## HAIDER

Safriz said:


> View attachment 635093
> 
> 
> View attachment 635093
> View attachment 635094
> 
> 
> Yes.
> Both engines showing significant damage on the bottom.
> How and why the engines scraped the runway on the first attempt is not known and hopefully investigation report will reveal this.


Do you have picture of landing gear opening before first landing attempt ? .... just curious to know if he requested for belly landing on first call or second call ...


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## Mohsin A

Baghial said:


> you should watch todays tv programme , very disturbings news about the pilots , misconduct, failure to follow procedure, emergency protocols,
> 
> http://www.unewstv.com/175548/muqabil-eid-ke-chaand-ka-masla-23rd-may-2020








(@ 19 minutes onwards)

Would be very interesting to know whether the pilot was Fasting on that ill-fated day. Given the information given in this programme, I have a gut feeling that the pilot was fasting and this may have caused a reduction in his thinking and situational awareness. According to the link above, the pilot was overspeeding and too height. ATC warned him *TWICE* to reduce speed and altitude and the response according to this programme was "I'll handle it!" Due to the speed of the aircraft, the gear didn't deploy and thus the engines hit the ground. If true, you really couldn't make it up! If rules and regulations aren't followed, accidents like these are bound to happen!

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## Safriz

It looks like pilot had difficulty in deploying landing gear and he made 3 attempts not 2.
On the last attempt the landing gear was open but engines dead 







HAIDER said:


> Do you have picture of landing gear opening before first landing attempt ? .... just curious to know if he requested for belly landing on first call or second call ...


There is a possibility that pilot forgot to deploy landing gear on first approach. Just saying.

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## HAIDER

Safriz said:


> It looks like pilot had difficulty in deploying landing gear and he made 3 attempts not 2.
> On the last attempt the landing gear was open but engines dead
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is a possibility that pilot forgot to deploy landing gear on first approach. Just saying.


Local eye witness accounts on ARYNEWS, said, we saw these planes all days, but never seen a plane without noise or engine sound ...


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## Aspen

xeuss said:


> There are a lot of errors in your post. Sorry!!
> 
> If you hear the ATC recording, there are chimes that indicate "gear unsafe". Basically gear extended but did not lock. Skid marks on engine indicate the nose gear was not locked (aircraft was nose down). Also, RAT has no relation to landing gear. It is auto deployed when both engines are shut.



I thought about this possibility for a while but I don't think its the case. If gear collapsed, then there is no way on earth that it could have retracted back into the gear hold in such a clean way that is seen in the picture. Look at what happened on BA38 when gear collapsed, it ripped into the wing. If gear collapsed, it would've gone through wing which we can tell did not happen by looking at pic. So that rules out locking problem on gear.

Belly landing is also not possible because in the pic, plane only has damage on the engines, a belly landing would have damage on tail area as well.

Pilots forgetting to extend the gear in the first place is also unlikely as there are too many alarms for somebody to forget to extend it.

The one possibility I can think of that solves everything is that pilots were coming in too fast too high on an unstable approach. One of the most common ways to slow down quickly during approach is to drop the gear earlier to create more drag. But there is a restriction on how fast you can go before deploying the gear. If you are going too fast to safely extend the landing gear, you get an audible warning "gear unsafe" in the cockpit. So it does not have to be a problem with landing gear itself, it could be that they were going too fast to extend it. A too fast too high approach would also explain an unstable landing and hard bounce that would later need to be aborted.

On other points, skid marks on engine don't indicate anything about nose gear so that is irrelevant.

RAT does have relation to both landing gear and engines actually. Normally, engines provide power to hydraulics which powers landing gear. But if there is a dual engine failure, RAT replaces engines as power source for hydraulics. In this RAT is useless as well because hydraulic fluid is leaking out from the same place that oil is leaking out which shut down the engines in the first place. If that scrape on the bottom of the engine didn't happen, RAT would have worked as the hydraulic fluid would not be leaking out and RAT would have been able to power the hydraulics. But in that situation, the engines would also be working and then RAT would not even be needed since the oil would not be leaking causing engines to overheat and triggering automatic shutdown since oil and hydraulics are both leaking from the same scraped area.



HAIDER said:


> Do you have picture of landing gear opening before first landing attempt ? .... just curious to know if he requested for belly landing on first call or second call ...



I do not think there was any belly landing, that would have caused way more damage to underside than we see in that picture. But there was a brief scrape of engines after bounce gear retraction when airplane sank to contact ground before TOGA thrust kicked in.



ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Please do not try to be someone you are not.
> You are not a pilot or an air accident investigator.
> 
> The correct call out for a standard go around is same as take off. Gears then flaps then slats. This aircraft had already done 2 missisd approaches. One of them indicates that the Engines touched the goudt at 4700 and 5000 ft down the line. The Pilots might have thought they could not stop in time hence initiated go around. 25L is 10000 ft only so touching half way down could have ment this aircraft would have hit lights and other equiptment at the end of the runway.



Even if it is gear then flaps, you are still supposed to wait until positive rate to retract the gear. I could definitely see a situation where pilot aborted an unstable landing and was waiting for positive rate to retract gear and thought the bounce or float was positive rate and retracted gear prematurely. If TOGA thrust took a moment to kick in after gear was retracted, it's enough time for plane to sink back down when engines scraped the runway at 4700 and 5000ft. I wonder if its possible that they retracted gear before hitting TOGA thrust by mistake. The pilots would have probably have decided to abort after the first hard bounce from unstable landing and then retracted the gear as part of procedure but in the wrong sequence. A long float down the runway would suggest they hesitated or delayed to apply TOGA thrust for a few seconds even though they had already retracted the gear which essentially means they already committed to going around. Retracting gear before applying TOGA is a huge mistake and I doubt they would've made this mistake. In my opinion it is more likely that they applied TOGA first and then retracted gear but TOGA took a moment to spool up and plane sank down to ground and engines made contact with runway after gear retracted but before TOGA fully spooled up. Whole situation could have been avoided if they just waited a few more seconds for TOGA to fully spool before retracting gear so that engine doesn't scrape and get damaged. Then it would've been a normal go around and plane would've landed safely.

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## Myth_buster_1

Here is an update


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## Shahzaz ud din

*Its remarkable how calm was the pilot - Ex RAF pilot on PK8303 crash,*
*https://www.siasat.pk/forums/thread...he-pilot-ex-raf-pilot-on-pk8303-crash.754695/*


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## JonAsad

xeuss said:


> Also, RAT has no relation to landing gear. It is auto deployed when both engines are shut.


RAT is suppose to give secondary power to perform basic flight operations.. including deployment of Landing gear... ofcourse in case both engine fails..

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## airmarshal

Why was plane allowed to take off when it belly landed first time? The pictures plane spotters took in Karachi clearly show engine nacelles badly damaged and RAT deployed. RAT means there was power failure which is natural as engines had failed due to damage. 

This is the view by an Airbus expert on this crash 

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CAhhntMJ7jN/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet

Also look at badly damaged engine nacelles. This points out to landing gear failure. But the bigger failure it seems is ATC's fault. I m not making any judgements. Just observations.


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## JonAsad

Mohsin A said:


> Due to the speed of the aircraft, the gear didn't deploy


Gear can be deployed at cruising speeds..

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## airmarshal

Side-Winder said:


> Crashed just before the runway... Very tragic
> 
> View attachment 634718



Appalled at seeing this map. How could population be allowed so close to the airport? Karachi is such an unfortunate, God forsaken city.

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## JonAsad

Safriz said:


> There is a possibility that pilot forgot to deploy landing gear on first approach. Just saying.


Highly unlikely.. its like driving a car without releasing the hand brake you get warnings..

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## Safriz

airmarshal said:


> Appalled at seeing this map. How could population be allowed so close to the airport? Karachi is such an unfortunate, God forsaken city.


China cutting.
Zardari zindabad

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## JonAsad

https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/632693-pia-a320-crash-karachi-12.html


This is what i am going with until the offical investigation is released sometime in the next decade..

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## Safriz

JonAsad said:


> View attachment 635107
> 
> https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/632693-pia-a320-crash-karachi-12.html
> 
> 
> This is what i am going with until the offical investigation is released sometime in the next decade..


Wow,
Wealth of knowledge on that website.
Seems like TOGA error to be blamed.
Pilot initially approaching too fast for landing and had to abort but didn't push TOGA switch.
As a result engines spooled slowly and plane dipped enough for the engines to scrape on the runway, and then went full throttle to get airborne.
The guys saying that although pilots are trained in simulators for touch and go , it is one of the maneuvers where pilot are highly likely to make errors.

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## Mohsin A

JonAsad said:


> Gear can be deployed at cruising speeds..



Lowering the gear at anything over 250 kts during a rapid decent can cause structural gear damage or landing gear fault. In some instances Airbus aircraft have a safety lock which stops the gear being deployed if the speed is too high.



JonAsad said:


> Highly unlikely.. its like driving a car without releasing the hand brake you get warnings..



We can hear the gear alarm sounding loud and clear in the ATC communications, so it is a possibility it wasn't deployed/properly deployed during approach.

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## airmarshal

Saturday update 








JonAsad said:


> View attachment 635107
> 
> https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/632693-pia-a320-crash-karachi-12.html
> 
> 
> This is what i am going with until the offical investigation is released sometime in the next decade..



Next decade? Well change it to 'never'. CAA does not have competence to investigate air crash. Its a corrupt body full of PPP and MQM types. Also there had been two previous air crashes in last decade in Pakistan. No report that at leat I have seen was comprehensive and I dont recall if any safety procedures were changed. One crash in 2009 of Air Blue 320 and other of PIA ATR in Dec 2016 which killed Junaid Jamshed.


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## Yaseen1

i know many people who buy houses and property here on basis of money received in remittance from foreign countries,generally people involved in corruption launder money to foreign countries as they have fear that one day they face accountability if their corruption is exposed and also these people want to avail luxuries and good quality of life in foreign countries instead of living in Pakistan 


pak-marine said:


> I think its very wrong to assume that this is foreign money its mostly bribes , un taxed incomes , criminals etc etc all kinds of black dirty money which is invested in real estate projects


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## POPEYE-Sailor



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## HAIDER

Safriz said:


> Wow,
> Wealth of knowledge on that website.
> Seems like TOGA error to be blamed.
> Pilot initially approaching too fast for landing and had to abort but didn't push TOGA switch.
> As a result engines spooled slowly and plane dipped enough for the engines to scrape on the runway, and then went full throttle to get airborne.
> The guys saying that although pilots are trained in simulators for touch and go , it is one of the maneuvers where pilot are highly likely to make errors.


It seems pilot error, if you post the recording. CT ask him about his high altitude and all happen while losing the altitude ..

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## Safriz

airmarshal said:


> Saturday update
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Next decade? Well change it to 'never'. CAA does not have competence to investigate air crash. Its a corrupt body full of PPP and MQM types. Also there had been two previous air crashes in last decade in Pakistan. No report that at leat I have seen was comprehensive and I dont recall if any safety procedures were changed. One crash in 2009 of Air Blue 320 and other of PIA ATR in Dec 2016 which killed Junaid Jamshed.


Likewise thus was the first ever PIA crash when CEO himself appeared in a press conference and promised an enquiry. Also the aviation minister gave a 3 months timeline for the report.

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## Nilgiri

Safriz said:


> Likewise thus was the first ever PIA crash when CEO himself appeared in a press conference and promised an enquiry. Also the aviation minister gave a 3 months timeline for the report.



Any news on blackbox being recovered?


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## Safriz

HAIDER said:


> It seems pilot error, if you post the recording. CT ask him about his high altitude and all happen while losing the altitude ..


Obviously whatever we write here are just assumptions.
But for now pilot error seems to be the best explanation.



Nilgiri said:


> Any news on blackbox being recovered?


That was recovered yesterday, and the flight data recorder.

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## JonAsad

Mohsin A said:


> Lowering the gear at anything over 240 kts during a rapid decent can cause structural gear damage or landing gear fault. In some instances Airbus aircraft have a safety lock which stops the gear being deployed if the speed is too high


Yup you are right..

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## Mohsin A

JonAsad said:


> Yup you are right..



Sorry, the vlo speed is actually 250 kts (Max speed at which gear can be extended). 240 kts is the gear retraction vlo.

So, in the haste of the situation in trying to decend rapidly and also slow down, maybe the pilot put the gear down earlier than usual at over 250 knots but the safety system had overridden the command. So despite the lever being down, the gear didn't extend and so the Landing gear alarm was sounding as per in the ATC communications. And so for some reason the pilot believed gear was down but it wasn't.
Pure speculation on my part but possible!

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## JonAsad

Mohsin A said:


> Sorry, the vlo speed is actually 250 kts (Max speed at which gear can be extended).
> 
> So, in the haste of the situation in trying to decend rapidly and also slow down, maybe the pilot put the gear down earlier than usual at over 250 knots but the safety system had overridden the command. So despite the lever being down, the gear didn't extend and so the Landing gear alarm was sounding as per in the ATC communications. And so for some reason the pilot believed gear was down but it wasn't.
> Pure speculation on my part but possible!


The first bounce was with hard touch down.. in between the second bounce + skid which was with both engines, the pilot retracted the landing gear and full throttle thinking the bounce and momentum will let it fly.. Big Mistake it didn't had enough thrust and the plane skid the runway for short time with both engines before finally gaining altitude..... thats what i believe.

The pilot should have full throttled, once at safe altitute then should have retracted the landing gear...

Notice the landing gear was fully deployed when the plane crashed that means no damage to it....

Thats my take.. Wallahu Alam..

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## waraich66




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## Mohsin A

JonAsad said:


> The first bounce was with hard touch down.. in between the second bounce + skid which was with both engines, the pilot retracted the landing gear and full throttle thinking the bounce and momentum will let it fly.. Big Mistake it didn't had enough thrust and the plane skid the runway for short time with both engines before finally gaining altitude..... thats what i believe.
> 
> The pilot should have full throttled, once at safe altitute then should have retracted the landing gear...
> 
> Notice the landing gear was fully deployed when the plane crashed that means no damage to it....
> 
> Thats my take.. Wallahu Alam..



Certainty a possibility. Would be interesting to see any CCTV footage from the Tower. That's if they release it!


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## waraich66

PIA airbus crash was human error. We should change both PIA and CAA leadership . PAF is world best airforce but not trained to operate airlines.

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## Mrc

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2672301083031847






Looks like approach was too fast and TOGA error

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## waraich66

Safriz said:


> Wow,
> Wealth of knowledge on that website.
> Seems like TOGA error to be blamed.
> Pilot initially approaching too fast for landing and had to abort but didn't push TOGA switch.
> As a result engines spooled slowly and plane dipped enough for the engines to scrape on the runway, and then went full throttle to get airborne.
> The guys saying that although pilots are trained in simulators for touch and go , it is one of the maneuvers where pilot are highly likely to make errors.


Good


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## MastanKhan

Shahzaz ud din said:


> *Its remarkable how calm was the pilot - Ex RAF pilot on PK8303 crash,*
> *https://www.siasat.pk/forums/thread...he-pilot-ex-raf-pilot-on-pk8303-crash.754695/*



Hi,

Calm my ---- pilot had no clue the catastrophe the plane had faced---.

Looks like the Pilot was FASTING---he might have had a low sugar condition---.

This here is a 9000 foot runway---pilot tries to land at 4500 foot marker whereas the total runway length is 9000 ft---that is the first place where the body of the aircraft touches the ground---.

A pilot in a normal condition would not do that---. Frigging pakistani Co-Pilots act as if they are the personal slaves of the Captain---never bothers to question the authority of the Captain evem knowing the captain is suicidal---typical Yessir pakistani mentality---.

That is why I hate when someone calls me SIR---.

Same thing happened with the Air Blue aircraft---the co pilot kept saying sir sir sir---and allowed the captain to smash the aircraft into the islamabad mountainside---.

blob:https://www.facebook.com/b5bd07e0-ea19-4c4b-bd9c-3774f68e7d02

The wheels down once the engines shutoff was a death sentence to the aircraft---.

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## Safriz

Mrc said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2672301083031847
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like approach was too fast and TOGA error





Mrc said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2672301083031847
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like approach was too fast and TOGA error


Hi,
Can you pm me a link to this Facebook video, so that I can download?


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## Mrc

Safriz said:


> Hi,
> Can you pm me a link to this Facebook video, so that I can download?







__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2672301083031847




...


When I post the link that's how it comes

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## JonAsad

Mrc said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2672301083031847
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like approach was too fast and TOGA error


Quote""On Boeing aircraft TO/GA modes are selected by a separate switch near the throttle levers, but on Airbus aircraft it is activated by pushing the thrust levers fully forward to the TO/GA detent.""

Since the aircraft make was Airbus, TOGA error Highly unlikey..

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## HAIDER

JonAsad said:


> Quote""On Boeing aircraft TO/GA modes are selected by a separate switch near the throttle levers, but on Airbus aircraft it is activated by pushing the thrust levers fully forward to the TO/GA detent.""
> 
> Since the aircraft make was Airbus, TOGA error Highly unlikey..


Is it pilot error or not ? .. according to control tower conversation, it confirmed pilot was on wrong altitude before landing.


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## Safriz

JonAsad said:


> Quote""On Boeing aircraft TO/GA modes are selected by a separate switch near the throttle levers, but on Airbus aircraft it is activated by pushing the thrust levers fully forward to the TO/GA detent.""
> 
> Since the aircraft make was Airbus, TOGA error Highly unlikey..


But TOGA not engaging is the only explanation of why the plane engines touched tarmac twice.
Toga resets the plane to takeoff mode immediately with required engine and ailerons settings.
Doing so manually may make the plane instable , hence port and then starboard engine touches the runway on landing. The full throttle and plane takes off but engines take time to rev up and place cones down for a second time and both engines scrape the runway again.
So whatever happened, TOGA doesn't seem to have engaged

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## Pan-Islamic-Pakistan

Inma lillahi wa inna ilayhi rajioon. Allah taala inn mahroom nu jannat farmayy, ameen.

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## Trango Towers

HAIDER said:


> Is it pilot error or not ? .. according to control tower conversation, it confirmed pilot was on wrong altitude before landing.


He couldn't gain height. He was asked and he replied engine problems


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## Raider 21

Safriz said:


> View attachment 635093
> 
> 
> View attachment 635093
> View attachment 635094
> 
> 
> Yes.
> Both engines showing significant damage on the bottom.
> How and why the engines scraped the runway on the first attempt is not known and hopefully investigation report will reveal this.


Impossible to scrape the runway and then apply for full power for a go around. It takes a while for power and speed to pick up even when gears are down and locked during normal conditions. Otherwise ATC Karachi are very stupid to have not seen that.

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## SQ8

Knuckles said:


> Impossible to scrape the runway and then apply for full power for a go around. It takes a while for power and speed to pick up even when gears are down and locked during normal conditions. Otherwise ATC Karachi are very stupid to have not seen that.


All things point to a hard initial landing.


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## Raider 21

Socra said:


> All things point to a hard initial landing.


There would have resulted in too much friction to overcome that supposed scraping against the runway. N1 to TOGA would have not been enough at all.

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## Safriz

Knuckles said:


> There would have resulted in too much friction to overcome that supposed scraping against the runway. N1 to TOGA would have not been enough at all.


As @JonAsad already pointed out Toga on Boeing and Airbus are different.
On airbus there are three stops on the throttle.
The lever only moves freely to first stop which is 60% thrust.

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## HAIDER

Trango Towers said:


> He couldn't gain height. He was asked and he replied engine problems


Issue was not related to gaining ...


Pakistan International Airlines flight PK 8303 crashed while attempting to landing in Karachi on 22 May. Flight 8303 was en route from Lahore when it crashed near the airport after conducting a go around and during its second landing attempt. The flight was operated by A320 AP-BLD.

This aircraft is tracked via MLAT, which means it does not broadcast position information via ADS-B. Flightradar24’s position data for MLAT tracked flights is calculated by the time difference of signal arrival to four receivers. If fewer than four receivers see the aircraft, position data cannot be calculated, thus limiting the positional data available for this flight. Altitude data is broadcast and altitude data was received from PK8303.

*PK8303 Altitude Data*







As per the recording, the PK 8303 flight crashed on approach following a go-around.
Based on the audio clip, at around 4m 45s into the recording, the plane went on a go-around. At around 6m 40s into the recording, the tower can be heard warning the pilot of a drop in altitude. Following, it was set on course at an altitude of 2,000.


At around 9m 01s into the clip, the pilot can be heard saying that it has lost the engines.

The tower then asks the pilot to confirm if it was proceeding with belly landing.

The pilot's response is not audible.

At 9m 20s in to the recording, the ATC informs that runaway is 'available to land on 2 5'.

The pilot responds in affirmative.

At 9m 32s, the pilot sends the SOS call. The tower then informs the pilot that both runways are available to land.

Here is a transcript of the last conversation between the ATC and pilot:

*Pilot: We are proceeding direct, we have lost the engines.
ATC: Confirm you are carrying out a belly landing?
Pilot: (Unclear)
ATC: Runway available to land on 2 5
Pilot: Roger
Pilot: Sir, Mayday, Mayday, Mayday, Pakistan 8303
ATC: Pakistan 8303. Roger Sir. Both runways are available to land.*

_Click here for latest updates on the PIA plane crash_

The ATC telling the pilot that both runways are open is the last conversation on record, before the audio cuts-off.

It is presumed that soon after the audio was terminated, the plane crash-landed in a residential area in Karachi.


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## Safriz

HAIDER said:


> Is it pilot error or not ? .. according to control tower conversation, it confirmed pilot was on wrong altitude before landing.


It does look like the case.
The 92 news video @Mrc posted says that the plane touched down at 4500 feet mark on a 9000 feet runway.
I checked A320 data and the aircraft's minimum landing distance at operational load in 4500 feet.
So the pilot already landed at minimum distance left to stop the plane.
If the speed was higher than recommended then he couldn't have stopped at the end of remaining runway and had overshot.
This seems to be the reason why he had to re-takeoff.
And if TOGA wasn't engaged then many things can immediately go wrong. Such as unstable plane at full throttle, hence engine scraping.

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## Aspen

Captain Sajjad Gul’s body is being received, he boarded for the last time in PIA

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/ap-blu#248d9201

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## SQ8

Knuckles said:


> There would have resulted in too much friction to overcome that supposed scraping against the runway. N1 to TOGA would have not been enough at all.


How much friction does it take to rip off some aluminum From an engine nacelle?

Moreover, there seems to be an assumption that the pilot touched down on both gears whereas it is possible that he may have slammed in with a left bank one gear..resulting in no.1 engine scraping then bounced to the next one to scape no.2. 
Somewhat similar circumstances got a Turkish flight a few years ago.


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## Raider 21

Socra said:


> *How much friction does it take to rip off some aluminum From an engine nacelle?*
> 
> Moreover, there seems to be an assumption that the pilot touched down on both gears whereas it is possible that he may have slammed in with a left bank one gear..resulting in no.1 engine scraping then bounced to the next one to scape no.2.
> Somewhat similar circumstances got a Turkish flight a few years ago.


Not much, but going to TOGA on damaged engines will take a while if possible and regaining speed for a go around would take a lot of runway length. 

ATC Karachi are incredibly calm, probably a normal sight to see aircraft doing touch and go's with engines.

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## Safriz

Knuckles said:


> Not much, but going to TOGA on damaged engines will take a while if possible and regaining speed for a go around would take a lot of runway length.
> 
> ATC Karachi are incredibly calm, probably a normal sight to see aircraft doing touch and go's with engines.


Touch and go are very rare among passenger jets.
The cowling on A320 engine is carbon fibre not aluminium.
Hence no dent . But you can see ripped fibers hanging under the engine, in the one and only photograph taken by the plane Spotter

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## litman

as per AM shahid latif it was pilot error. he forgot to deploy the landing gear came in for a normal landing and when the engines touched the runway he realized that he had not deployed the landing gear. then he took off but as the engines were damaged he couldnt make back again . before the first touch down pilot didnt raised any emergency that his landing gears have not been deployed. inquiry result awaited but seems to be a unique incident.

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## Trango Towers

Safriz said:


> It does look like the case.
> The 92 news video @Mrc posted says that the plane touched down at 4500 feet mark on a 9000 feet runway.
> I checked A320 data and the aircraft's minimum landing distance at operational load in 4500 feet.
> So the pilot already landed at minimum distance left to stop the plane.
> If the speed was higher than recommended then he couldn't have stopped at the end of remaining runway and had overshot.
> This seems to be the reason why he had to re-takeoff.
> And if TOGA wasn't engaged then many things can immediately go wrong. Such as unstable plane at full throttle, hence engine scraping.


What no one understands is that the altimeter could also indicate wrong reading. It could be showing 3000ft when its actually 2000ft


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## Blacklight

litman said:


> as per AM shahid latif it was pilot error. he forgot to deploy the landing gear came in for a normal landing and when the engines touched the runway he realized that he had not deployed the landing gear. then he took off but as the engines were damaged he couldnt make back again . before the first touch down pilot didnt raised any emergency that his landing gears have not been deployed. inquiry result awaited *but seems to be a unique incident.*



On February 4, 1986, AP-AYW made belly landing at mpany's Islamabad Airport around 9:00 AM in the morning. The Boeing Boeing 747-282B was arriving as PIA flight PK-300 from Karachi with 247 passengers and 17 crew members onboard. Luckily everyone survived this accident caused by pilot error. AP-AYW was repaired with Boeing's technical assistance

The Captain forgot to lower the landing gear.

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## Aspen

I made a diagram of landing direction based on aerial shots of wreckage

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## Mrc

Safriz said:


> It does look like the case.
> The 92 news video @Mrc posted says that the plane touched down at 4500 feet mark on a 9000 feet runway.
> I checked A320 data and the aircraft's minimum landing distance at operational load in 4500 feet.
> So the pilot already landed at minimum distance left to stop the plane.
> If the speed was higher than recommended then he couldn't have stopped at the end of remaining runway and had overshot.
> This seems to be the reason why he had to re-takeoff.
> And if TOGA wasn't engaged then many things can immediately go wrong. Such as unstable plane at full throttle, hence engine scraping.




Question is why was pilot not aware that landing gear is not down?

Systems shud have alarmed far before touch down.

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## kris

Taimoor Khan said:


> Hahaha I am as white/fair as they come why would be worshipping the Europeans? Lol
> 
> Go and look around and travel a bit you moron, most airports in mega cities, you have this problem of flight paths going right above the city population.


Atleast grow some IQ and hide your foolishness imbecile... 
Safety parameters are pre set in aviation... They doesn't depend on how you interpret them....

Quote me only if you have a point...


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## JonAsad

Safriz said:


> But TOGA not engaging is the only explanation of why the plane engines touched tarmac twice.
> Toga resets the plane to takeoff mode immediately with required engine and ailerons settings.
> Doing so manually may make the plane instable , hence port and then starboard engine touches the runway on landing. The full throttle and plane takes off but engines take time to rev up and place cones down for a second time and both engines scrape the runway again.
> So whatever happened, TOGA doesn't seem to have engaged


What i believe as i have pointed out earlier.. first touch of the landing gear was a hard hit at the termac that bounced the plane, probably because pilot tried to aggressively compensate the height he was way above the landing height.. the decisions pilot made during the first and second hit is crucial, i have seen youtube videos where on hard landing pilots immediately retract the landing gear and go full throttle engaging TOGA during the bounce, maintaining the momentum is crucial.. The PIA plane lost momentum most probably because the pilot nose dived and then pulled up a little to suddenly decrease the altitude.. that nose up maneuver resulted in a bounce at high uneven angle losing momentum probably because one of the rear landing gear hit the ground first then the front one... That bounce required only full throttle to gain momentum.. be it even if the second bounce was on the wheels again.. TOGA was engaged alright but it required a few more seconds in the air to be effective.. the landing gear retracted and engines scraping the ground doomed the plane..



HAIDER said:


> Is it pilot error or not ? .. according to control tower conversation, it confirmed pilot was on wrong altitude before landing.


That last minute adjustment to the supposedly correct altitude cost him and the others their lives..
Can't believe he proceeded to adjust the altitude at last minute instead of aborting..

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## SQ8

Knuckles said:


> Not much, but going to TOGA on damaged engines will take a while if possible and regaining speed for a go around would take a lot of runway length.
> 
> ATC Karachi are incredibly calm, probably a normal sight to see aircraft doing touch and go's with engines.


Its the latter half of a fast, they are low energy and not operating at normal human alertness.

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## Mrc

Socra said:


> Its the latter half of a fast, they are low energy and not operating at normal human alertness.




U are 'it required to fast when traveling

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## sur

HAIDER said:


> *PK8303 Altitude Data*



Extremely sad event and it disturbed me down to the core as it did to many others.

I'm no expert , just posting some screenshots from this video:








Appears that it was co-pilot (1st man?) who was on the radio, not the main pilot. As we can hear pilot dictating the co-pilot *@1:56*

Looks like landing gear's problem ("ding ding ding" heard *@0:44*) was before 1st attempt to land. Despite that "ding ding ding", pilot attempted landing half way through runway (as video here says), scrapped the engines. And called out a TO/GA "going around".

Then engines can be heard speeding up *@1:19*.

*@2:42* Looks like ATC didn't expect them to turn left,
but co-pilot informed that they're turning back due to engine loss.

From ALT graph, appears that when plane attempted 1st landing, its descent rate was *~2500 ft/min* or may be even more just before making ground contact. Which should have been around *~500 ft/min*.?








I may be wrong above that rate was 2500 ftm just before touch down:
It may be *~1125 ftm*.
Still higher (twice as much) than 500 - 800 ft/m.


Source: this tweet.

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## Baghial

CAA. SHARED, OR LEAKED THE CONVERSATION , 
PILOT /TOWER
BUT WHAT ABOUT THE CCTV, CAMERA.S INSTALLED ON THE RUN WAYS, ? WHY DINT THEY LEAK THAT ALSO?

IS THE BLAME GOING TO BE ON THE DECEASED PILOTS FAULT?

YESTERDAY ON A TV PROGRAMME , THEY WERE ALL READY SAYING , THAT THE PILOT MADE , ERRORS, DID,T FOLLOW EMERGENCY PROTOCOLS, ,TOOK UN NECESSARY RISK?


WE HAVE SEEN IN SO MANY NUMEROUS REPORTS, INQUIRY,S , COMMISSIONS, THE BLAME, GOES MOSTLEY TO THE DEAD ONE,S ..... BECAUSE THEY CANT DENY, CONTRADICT, NOR DEFEND THERE POSITION,

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## HAIDER

The pilot of the ill-fated PIA Airbus twice tried to land at Jinnah International Airport in Karachi but couldn’t because of the stuck landing gears, said 24NewsHD TV on Saturday, citing a report prepared by the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA).


Sources say the runway inspection report mentioned that the plane’s left engine touched the runway at 4,500 feet and the right one at 5,500 feet. However, plane’s belly didn’t touch which enabled the pilot to take off again.


The Jinnah International Airport’s runway is around 10,000 feet long, said the sources, adding that there were marks of the engines on the runway between around 6,000 to 7,000 feet.








Pictures taken of the plane minutes before it crashed indicated that its Ram Air Turbine (RAT) was deployed. White puffs of smoke could also be seen coming from the engine as well as dark marks on both the engines at the undersides. Deployment of the RAT means that both the engines of the plane have been failed or failing.


Images captured by local photographer group, Pakistan’s Planespotters, appear to show both engine cowlings of the A320 having scratch marks implying contact with the ground. Also, the aircraft is pictured with its Ram Air Turbine (RAT) deployed with white smoke trailing from each engine. The RAT is a small turbine that can be manually or automatically deployed as a last resort electric source for the aircraft’s main electrical supply. It is automatically deployed should the main electrical bus bars fail to gain power from either both engine generators, which only have power if the engines are turned on, or from the Auxillary Power Unit (APU), which is normally used during ground operations or as part of a coordinated response to an emergency situation.


Meanwhile, the conversation between the pilot and the airport control tower, available with 24NewsHD TV channel, helps understanding the circumstances in which the crash happened.


Before the first landing attempt, the control tower says the speed and altitude of the plane is higher than the automatic land system. However, the captain replies that he is satisfied with his speed and altitude.


Then the control tower informs him that he could land, while the pilot says, “Yes! We are landing.”


But after a two-minute delay, the sources say, the pilot suddenly contacted the control tower again and said they were going up again and return for landing again.


At this point, the control tower told the pilot that he should reach the altitude of 30,000 feet. However, it had to inform him that the plane was coming down instead of reaching the altitude of 30,000 feet.


“Your plane has reached the altitude of 1,800 feet,” said the control tower, as the pilot replied that they would keep the plane at 2,000 feet.


But soon after that, the pilot said they had lost both the engines, to which the control tower told him that the runway was available for emergency landing.


*PK8303 Crisis statement by Airbus*

Airbus regrets to confirm that an A320 aircraft operated by Pakistan International Airlines was involved in an accident during flight PK8303 from Lahore to Karachi on May 22, 2020. Initial reports indicate there were 91 passengers and seven crew members on-board. Our thoughts are with all those affected.


At this stage, Airbus has no confirmed information concerning the circumstances of the accident. The aircraft, registration number AP-BLD, Manufacturer Serial Number 2274, first entered service in 2004. It has been in operation with Pakistan International Airlines since 2014. The aircraft had logged around 47,100 flight hours and 25,860 flight cycles as of today. It was powered by CFM56-5B4/P engines.


In line with ICAO annex 13, Airbus is providing full technical assistance to the Bureau d’Enquêtes et d’Analyses of France and to the Pakistani Authorities in charge of the investigation. Technical support is also being provided by Pakistan International Airlines and engine manufacturer CFM.


Further updates will be provided as soon as further consolidated information is available and Airbus is authorized to release it.


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## Fawadqasim1

It seems like a monumental pilot error.

The question is whether the landing gear malfunctioned and did not deploy or the pilot forgot to deploy it on the first approach we will know for sure when the flight data recorder is analysed.


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## Baghial

HAIDER said:


> View attachment 635157
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The pilot of the ill-fated PIA Airbus twice tried to land at Jinnah International Airport in Karachi but couldn’t because of the stuck landing gears, said 24NewsHD TV on Saturday, citing a report prepared by the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA).
> 
> 
> Sources say the runway inspection report mentioned that the plane’s left engine touched the runway at 4,500 feet and the right one at 5,500 feet. However, plane’s belly didn’t touch which enabled the pilot to take off again.
> 
> 
> The Jinnah International Airport’s runway is around 10,000 feet long, said the sources, adding that there were marks of the engines on the runway between around 6,000 to 7,000 feet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pictures taken of the plane minutes before it crashed indicated that its Ram Air Turbine (RAT) was deployed. White puffs of smoke could also be seen coming from the engine as well as dark marks on both the engines at the undersides. Deployment of the RAT means that both the engines of the plane have been failed or failing.
> 
> 
> Images captured by local photographer group, Pakistan’s Planespotters, appear to show both engine cowlings of the A320 having scratch marks implying contact with the ground. Also, the aircraft is pictured with its Ram Air Turbine (RAT) deployed with white smoke trailing from each engine. The RAT is a small turbine that can be manually or automatically deployed as a last resort electric source for the aircraft’s main electrical supply. It is automatically deployed should the main electrical bus bars fail to gain power from either both engine generators, which only have power if the engines are turned on, or from the Auxillary Power Unit (APU), which is normally used during ground operations or as part of a coordinated response to an emergency situation.
> 
> 
> Meanwhile, the conversation between the pilot and the airport control tower, available with 24NewsHD TV channel, helps understanding the circumstances in which the crash happened.
> 
> 
> Before the first landing attempt, the control tower says the speed and altitude of the plane is higher than the automatic land system. However, the captain replies that he is satisfied with his speed and altitude.
> 
> 
> Then the control tower informs him that he could land, while the pilot says, “Yes! We are landing.”
> 
> 
> But after a two-minute delay, the sources say, the pilot suddenly contacted the control tower again and said they were going up again and return for landing again.
> 
> 
> At this point, the control tower told the pilot that he should reach the altitude of 30,000 feet. However, it had to inform him that the plane was coming down instead of reaching the altitude of 30,000 feet.
> 
> 
> “Your plane has reached the altitude of 1,800 feet,” said the control tower, as the pilot replied that they would keep the plane at 2,000 feet.
> 
> 
> But soon after that, the pilot said they had lost both the engines, to which the control tower told him that the runway was available for emergency landing.
> 
> 
> *PK8303 Crisis statement by Airbus*
> 
> Airbus regrets to confirm that an A320 aircraft operated by Pakistan International Airlines was involved in an accident during flight PK8303 from Lahore to Karachi on May 22, 2020. Initial reports indicate there were 91 passengers and seven crew members on-board. Our thoughts are with all those affected.
> 
> 
> At this stage, Airbus has no confirmed information concerning the circumstances of the accident. The aircraft, registration number AP-BLD, Manufacturer Serial Number 2274, first entered service in 2004. It has been in operation with Pakistan International Airlines since 2014. The aircraft had logged around 47,100 flight hours and 25,860 flight cycles as of today. It was powered by CFM56-5B4/P engines.
> 
> 
> In line with ICAO annex 13, Airbus is providing full technical assistance to the Bureau d’Enquêtes et d’Analyses of France and to the Pakistani Authorities in charge of the investigation. Technical support is also being provided by Pakistan International Airlines and engine manufacturer CFM.
> 
> 
> Further updates will be provided as soon as further consolidated information is available and Airbus is authorized to release it.[/QUO
> 
> audio conversation between atc/pilots was released , shortly after crash!
> but the enigma--------- video from the run way camera,s was with held?
> 
> why only audio of last 60/90 sec released?
> 
> yesterday experts examined the runway, and concluded , glide, scratchs from body/engine on runway.
> and they are also examining the video,s of camera,s installed at the run way...
> 
> but no -word of any findings?


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## Fawadqasim1

sur said:


> Extremely sad event and it disturbed me down to the core as it did to many others.
> 
> I'm no expert , just posting some screenshots from this video:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Appears that it was co-pilot (1st man?) who was on the radio, not the main pilot. As we can hear pilot dictating the co-pilot *@1:56*
> 
> Looks like landing gear's problem ("ding ding ding" heard *@0:44*) was before 1st attempt to land. Despite that "ding ding ding", pilot attempted landing half way through runway (as video here says), scrapped the engines. And called out a TO/GA "going around".
> 
> Then engines can be heard speeding up *@1:19*.
> 
> *@2:42* Looks like ATC didn't expect them to turn left,
> but co-pilot informed that they're turning back due to engine loss.
> 
> From ALT graph, appears that when plane attempted 1st landing, its descent rate was *~2500 ft/min* or may be even more just before making ground contact. Which should have been around *~500 ft/min*.?
> 
> 
> View attachment 635152
> 
> 
> 
> I may be wrong above that rate was 2500 ftm just before touch down:
> It may be *~1125 ftm*.
> Still higher (twice as much) than 500 - 800 ft/m.
> 
> 
> Source: this tweet.
> View attachment 635160


The Capt did not inform the controller regarding landing gear failure on his first approach.

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## Maarkhoor

Baghial said:


> CAA-- air side dept, today...23/05/2020 did inspection of runway, they found skids of engine, at 5500m. and also 6500 m
> 2 times, --------- run way is about 1100m.
> so the plane tried to belly land 2 times already, but its belly didnt touch ground?
> while 3rd attempt was fatal..


Bro one time only they tried without opening the landing gears first they touch 5500 but engines hit the runway and jet bounced back and again fell on runway 6500m then pilot/s decided to take off "which was fatal mistake"and later due to damage engines losing thrust again fatal mistake they opened landing gear which further increase drag putt more pressure on dying engines and ultimately engines failed and plane stalled.
It was a series of mistake by pilot/s.



Mrc said:


> Question is why was pilot not aware that landing gear is not down?
> 
> Systems shud have alarmed far before touch down.


System informed but they ignored it.


----------



## Ali_Baba

Next >


MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Calm my ---- pilot had no clue the catastrophe the plane had faced---.
> 
> Looks like the Pilot was FASTING---he might have had a low sugar condition---.
> 
> This here is a 9000 foot runway---pilot tries to land at 4500 foot marker whereas the total runway length is 9000 ft---that is the first place where the body of the aircraft touches the ground---.
> 
> A pilot in a normal condition would not do that---. Frigging pakistani Co-Pilots act as if they are the personal slaves of the Captain---never bothers to question the authority of the Captain evem knowing the captain is suicidal---typical Yessir pakistani mentality---.
> 
> That is why I hate when someone calls me SIR---.
> 
> Same thing happened with the Air Blue aircraft---the co pilot kept saying sir sir sir---and allowed the captain to smash the aircraft into the islamabad mountainside---.
> 
> blob:https://www.facebook.com/b5bd07e0-ea19-4c4b-bd9c-3774f68e7d02
> 
> The wheels down once the engines shutoff was a death sentence to the aircraft---.



Pilots should be BANNED from Fasting regardless of whether or not this pilot was. That is v.v. dangerous when split second decisions need to be made...

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## Taimoor Khan

kris said:


> Atleast grow some IQ and hide your foolishness imbecile...
> Safety parameters are pre set in aviation... They doesn't depend on how you interpret them....
> 
> Quote me only if you have a point...



You are very funny yet stupid you Indian turd. 

First and foremost, there are just few street or blocks which comes direct in the flight path of Karachi airport landing path. This region of Karachi is literally the edge of city settlements. 

Before you open your mouth about why the Pakistani planner allowed this to happen, just watch this. This is your bloody Bombay airport landing. 






Delhi:






Calcutta:







So before you open your gob, do some research.

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## Mrc

Maarkhoor said:


> Bro one time only they tried without opening the landing gears first they touch 5500 but engines hit the runway and jet bounced back and again fell on runway 6500m then pilot/s decided to take off "which was fatal mistake"and later due to damage engines losing thrust again fatal mistake they opened landing gear which further increase drag putt more pressure on dying engines and ultimately engines failed and plane stalled.
> It was a series of mistake by pilot/s.
> 
> 
> System informed but they ignored it.




Yes I have realised that

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## Safriz

Fawadqasim1 said:


> The Capt did not inform the controller regarding landing gear failure on his first approach.


Because there was none.



Mrc said:


> Question is why was pilot not aware that landing gear is not down?
> 
> Systems shud have alarmed far before touch down.


Although it's highly unlikely that pilot forgot to deploy landing gear but there's no such warning system in existence.
Pilots are supposed to be prudent enough not to land without landing gear .


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## Maarkhoor

Safriz said:


> Although it's highly unlikely that pilot forgot to deploy landing gear but there's no such warning system in existence.
> Pilots are supposed to be prudent enough not to land without landing gear .


As per call records pilot did not took action after landing gears not deployed even warning sings and sounds......as I assumed both pilots have roza / fasting....sugar level down "that is why most air forces have rule to eat candies, chocolate bars or sweets before flight"..... 

human error...

case closed...

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## Safriz

پاکستان رینجرزکی جانب سے کراچی کے علاقے ماڈل کالونی میں طیارہ حادثے کے بعد تباہ شدہ جہاز کے ملبے سے ملنے والے تمام سامان کو پی آئی اے حکام کے حوالے کر دیا گیا۔ سندھ رینجرز
۲۔ جائے حادثے سے ملنے والے تمام سامان کو رینجرز ہیڈ کوارٹرزجامعہ ملیہ کالج کراچی میں پی آئی اے حکام کے حوالے کیا گیا۔ سندھ رینجرز
۳۔ جائے حادثے سے بر آمد شدہ سامان میں موبائل فونز، لیپ ٹاپ، آئی فون، الیکٹرانک آئٹمز، گولڈ اور آرٹیفیشل جیولری، مختلف اقسام کی گھریلواشیاء، ہینڈ بیگز، سفری بیگز، لیڈیز اور جینٹس پرس، پاسپورٹس اور قیمتی اشیاء شامل۔ سندھ رینجرز
۴۔ بر آمد شدہ سامان میں 3 کروڑ 24 ہزار 300 جلی ہوئی پاکستانی کرنسی جب کہ نقدی رقم (16 لاکھ 67 ہزار692 روپے پاکستانی کرنسی، 70 پاؤنڈز اور 625 ڈالرز غیر ملکی کرنسی شامل ہے۔ سندھ رینجرز
۵۔ پی آئی اے حکام نے ریسکیو آپریشن میں رینجرز کی جانب سے کیے جانے والے اقدامات کو سراہاتے ہوئے خراجِ تحسین پیش کیا۔ سندھ رینجرز
۶۔ پی آئی اے حکام کو حوالے کیے گئے برآمد شدہ سامان کی تفصیلات بھی جاری کی جارہی ہیں. سندھ رینجرز
#خانہ_بدوش

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## Fawadqasim1

we should not jump the gun let's wait for the results of the analysis of the flight data recorder.


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## Enigma SIG

Maarkhoor said:


> As per call records pilot did not took action after landing gears not deployed even warning sings and sounds......as I assumed both pilots have roza / fasting....sugar level down "that is why most air forces have rule to eat candies, chocolate bars or sweets before flight".....
> 
> human error...
> 
> case closed...


Sarcastic much? 2 pilots in the cockpit making the same mistake? For both of them to actually miss the landing gear not deployed warning has a statistical possibility bordering on 1 in a billion. The ECAM displays a L/G NOT DOWN warning after passing 750ft and for both pilots to miss it is either monumental stupidity or that it didn't happen in the first place.

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## Fawadqasim1

Watch this movie it's a classic







Enigma SIG said:


> Sarcastic much? 2 pilots in the cockpit making the same mistake? For both of them to actually miss the landing gear not deployed warning has a statistical possibility bordering on 1 in a billion. The ECAM displays a L/G NOT DOWN warning after passing 750ft and for both pilots to miss it is either monumental stupidity or that it didn't happen in the first place.


Most likely it didn't


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Maarkhoor said:


> As per call records pilot did not took action after landing gears not deployed even warning sings and sounds......as I assumed both pilots have roza / fasting....sugar level down "that is why most air forces have rule to eat candies, chocolate bars or sweets before flight".....
> 
> human error...
> 
> case closed...


That is how they are trying to twist the case from a failure of Tower to visually see the aircraft then call according to sop. "Check gears down and locked clear land"

In Fact it seems like the aircraft was not handed over to tower but was being controlled by ATC controller in a different location monitoring only on radar. This can only be proved correct if we get a an international impartial experts who are not from Pakistan AIRFORCE or CIvil Aviation.


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## Fawadqasim1

it seems as if it did not deploy and it did not warn

And the Tower failed to Warn them too it was a perfect storm


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## Safriz

Enigma SIG said:


> Sarcastic much? 2 pilots in the cockpit making the same mistake? For both of them to actually miss the landing gear not deployed warning has a statistical possibility bordering on 1 in a billion. The ECAM displays a L/G NOT DOWN warning after passing 750ft and for both pilots to miss it is either monumental stupidity or that it didn't happen in the first place.


There is no such thing as "Landing gear not deployed" warning.
But that simply doesn't happen that pilots forget to deploy landing gear.
Pilot touched down runway at 4500 feet mark on a runway which is 9000 feet long.
That means they had only 4500 feet until the end of ranway.
For A320 the minimum stopping distance on landing with normal load and speed in 4500 feet.
So the pilot was already short of landing space on first approach, and had to try and go round.
That was the mistake which led to other things and it all went horribly wrong.
(Read the above as opinion as we should wait for official investigation to conclude)


----------



## Fawadqasim1

Safriz said:


> There is no such thing as "Landing gear not deployed" warning.
> But that simply doesn't happen that pilots forget to deploy landing gear.
> Pilot touched down runway at 4500 feet mark on a runway which is 9000 feet long.
> That means they had only 4500 feet until the end of ranway.
> For A320 the minimum stopping distance on landing with normal load and speed in 4500 feet.
> So the pilot was already short of landing space on first approach, and had to try and go round.
> That was the mistake which led to other things and it all went horribly wrong.
> (Read the above as opinion as we should wait for official investigation to conclude)


And what about the control tower

audi alteram partem or or there was something seriously wrong with the flight control system i.e avionics sensors computer of this aircraft the pilots relied on it and it led them astray it was a perfect storm it happens and its not uncommon in air accidents.


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## Imran Khan

Safriz said:


> Because there was none.
> 
> 
> Although it's highly unlikely that pilot forgot to deploy landing gear but there's no such warning system in existence.
> Pilots are supposed to be prudent enough not to land without landing gear .


there is warning system of landing gear sir .since long time ago .

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## Safriz

Imran Khan said:


> there is warning system of landing gear sir .since long time ago .


If something goes wrong during deployment then warning sounds.
But if not deployed at all, there's no warning for that. Or so I have read


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## Baghial

myth, mystery- vs facts. evidence..


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## Fawadqasim1

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjABegQIBhAB&usg=AOvVaw3RTjS7IQUz4xJj758A-hRx

Just download the PDF and read the airbus a320 does worn the pilots at or under 750 fts

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## Imran Khan

Safriz said:


> If something goes wrong during deployment then warning sounds.
> But if not deployed at all, there's no warning for that. Or so I have read


you read wrong sir if pilots forget landing gears warning starts .

Airplane systems. Depending on the plane's complexity level, different warning systems and sometimes automatic gear extension systems (which pilots hate) are installed to make sure a pilot's attention will be drawn to the fact the landing gear is in the up position. In the relatively simple plane I fly, these relate to the power settings, airspeed and flaps. Certain configurations will result in a loud and annoying “gear up warning” alert.



Fawadqasim1 said:


> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjABegQIBhAB&usg=AOvVaw3RTjS7IQUz4xJj758A-hRx
> 
> Just download the PDF and read the airbus a320 does worn the pilots at under 750 fts


some airliners warn at 800 feet and very loudly warn not just light .

here is video of landing gear up warning

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## BATMAN

Corruption in state institutions is back to Zardari level.
NAB shall be well aware of it.
While nation shall take precautions, as long Imran Khan is King of Pakistan.

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## kris

Taimoor Khan said:


> You are very funny yet stupid you Indian turd.
> 
> First and foremost, there are just few street or blocks which comes direct in the flight path of Karachi airport landing path. This region of Karachi is literally the edge of city settlements.
> 
> Before you open your mouth about why the Pakistani planner allowed this to happen, just watch this. This is your bloody Bombay airport landing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Delhi:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Calcutta:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So before you open your gob, do some research.


Mahashay, pehle me kya bola oh dekh ke reply karna. 
I saidin previous posts that such airports should be moved out far from civilian areas or create a no house zone with examples.....

Its better to keep your mouth shut when people think you are stupid rather than open your wisdom and prove it

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## Safriz

Fawadqasim1 said:


> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjABegQIBhAB&usg=AOvVaw3RTjS7IQUz4xJj758A-hRx
> 
> Just download the PDF and read the airbus a320 does worn the pilots at or under 750 fts


Ok, then in that case landing without gear extended didn't happen as many news channels reporting?

Here is a picture of one of the engine scraping.
It clearly shows metal contacting the runway as the deep white mark.
The black stuff is the carbon fibre.

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## Baghial

Baghial said:


> myth, mystery- vs facts. evidence..









*Pakistani tv is showing images of scrape marks on the Karachi runway, purportedly caused by the engines of PIA flight #PK8303.*
The photos confirm the A320 made a go-around after the engines touched the runway. The ATC was also mentioning a belly landing.






PIA Airbus A320 (aircraft registration AP-BLD) engines scrape marks on Karachi Airport Runway 25L.






The RAT was deployed confirming that both engines failed.



Baghial said:


> *Pakistani tv is showing images of scrape marks on the Karachi runway, purportedly caused by the engines of PIA flight #PK8303.*
> The photos confirm the A320 made a go-around after the engines touched the runway. The ATC was also mentioning a belly landing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PIA Airbus A320 (aircraft registration AP-BLD) engines scrape marks on Karachi Airport Runway 25L.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The RAT was deployed confirming that both engines failed.





watch the video above, many things will be clear....


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## PakSword

I have heard that there is no warning (sound) if pilot forgets to deploy the landing gear. So there are two possibilities:

1 - Pilot forgets to deploy landing gear; or
2 - The landing gear wasn't properly deployed due to a problem and both pilots ignored the warning.

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## Fawadqasim1

Safriz said:


> Ok, then in that case landing without gear extended didn't happen as many news channels reporting?
> 
> Here is a picture of one of the engine scraping.
> It clearly shows metal contacting the runway as the deep white mark.
> The black stuff is the carbon fibre.
> View attachment 635207


It did not deploy it did not warn and I will not be surprised if it misled the pilots regarding their speed and alt and by it I mean the flight control system(avionics, sensors computer) of this particular aircraft
It seems as if there was something really wrong with it the pilots only knew about the 
The non deployment of their landing gear when their engine scratched the runway they could not belly land the plane a) because of the surprise b) there was no support system on the ground for such landing due to lack of warning they had to fly the aircraft back in air.



PakSword said:


> I have heard that there is no warning if pilot forgets to deploy the landing gear. So there are two possibilities:
> 
> 1 - Pilot forgets to deploy landing gear; or
> 2 - The landing gear wasn't properly deployed due to a problem and both pilots ignored the warning.


Read the PDF file please


----------



## Baghial

PakSword said:


> I have heard that there is no warning if pilot forgets to deploy the landing gear. So there are two possibilities:
> 
> 1 - Pilot forgets to deploy landing gear; or
> 2 - The landing gear wasn't properly deployed due to a problem and both pilots ignored the warning.




the warning of landing gear can be heard loud n clear in audio ATC/PILOT

JUST WATCH ,VIDEO DETAIL ABOVE IN MY POST,


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## PakSword

Fawadqasim1 said:


> Read the PDF file please


I wanted to say warning with sound.. or is it? What's in the PDF doc?



Baghial said:


> the warning of landing gear can be heard loud n clear in audio ATC/PILOT
> 
> JUST WATCH ,VIDEO DETAIL ABOVE IN MY POST,


Isn't it the warning if landing dear is not properly deployed?


----------



## Imran Khan

PakSword said:


> I have heard that there is no warning (sound) if pilot forgets to deploy the landing gear. So there are two possibilities:
> 
> 1 - Pilot forgets to deploy landing gear; or
> 2 - The landing gear wasn't properly deployed due to a problem and both pilots ignored the warning.


you heard wrong sir land gears have very loud warnings

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## Fawadqasim1

PakSword said:


> I wanted to say warning with sound.. or is it? What's in the PDF doc?
> 
> 
> Isn't it the warning if landing dear is not properly deployed?


Warning if the pilots forget to deploy at 750 ft warning if it fails to deploy warning if it's not properly deployed in all 3 cases.

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## Thorough Pro

Unless the tree jumps in the middle of the road, it's always the driver who is responsible if it hits the tree because the driver did something wrong or did not do something right, you can't blame it on the weather.


The final investigation would reveal the truth, but so far what's out in the public, looks like the initial descent was way too sharp and too far (right in the middle of the runway).

Looking at the pic showing damaged cowlings on both engines and no damage to the nose gear /nose gear door, probably the pilots either forgot to extend in a hurry as the plane had already overshot (first touch down halfway through the runway) or the gear was faulty and did not open.

If the pilots did extend the nose gear and it did not open, then the pilot should have not attempted to land halfway through the runway and done a go-around asking tower to watch/confirm the nose gear.

From the TC and pilot discussion already posted, the controller did ask if he was going for a belly landing? that means there was some issue with the nose gear and controller knew it, or else why would he ask that?

If there was an issue with the nose gear, then the sharp decent may explain that the pilot wanted to bump the nose gear out by intentionally doing a touch and go at a sharp angle but probably miscalculated and came in too sharp and bumped the engines on the runway in the process, and since he came in too sharp, it was difficult to gain speed and momentum again in a short time and since the engines were damaged (which he probably didn't know when he took off again but found out later when failed to attain the altitude controller asked him to maintain).

Since he was already at only 2000 feet with both engines dead and he took two turns, losing height at every turn he just crashed well short of the runway.

Allah knows best what happened and so many innocent people lost their lives. May ALLAH forgive them all and have mercy on their souls. Lately, there have been quite a few aviation accidents in Pakistan be it national or private carriers, and I am not sure how good the investigations were. But instead of shying out of the embarrassing outcome of the investigation, a professional and fair investigation should be done and the reasons found out. And more importantly, in light of these findings, laws, guidelines and procedures must be updated and training imparted to whoever/whatever is found lacking to avoid losses in the future.

And while the investigation is in process, there must be a total ban on all information leakage and anyone found guilty of breaching the trust and involved in criminal activity of leaking information in bits and pieces to cause confusion should be dealt with properly.







Baghial said:


> CAA. SHARED, OR LEAKED THE CONVERSATION ,
> PILOT /TOWER
> BUT WHAT ABOUT THE CCTV, CAMERA.S INSTALLED ON THE RUN WAYS, ? WHY DINT THEY LEAK THAT ALSO?
> 
> IS THE BLAME GOING TO BE ON THE DECEASED PILOTS FAULT?
> 
> YESTERDAY ON A TV PROGRAMME , THEY WERE ALL READY SAYING , THAT THE PILOT MADE , ERRORS, DID,T FOLLOW EMERGENCY PROTOCOLS, ,TOOK UN NECESSARY RISK?
> 
> 
> WE HAVE SEEN IN SO MANY NUMEROUS REPORTS, INQUIRY,S , COMMISSIONS, THE BLAME, GOES MOSTLEY TO THE DEAD ONE,S ..... BECAUSE THEY CANT DENY, CONTRADICT, NOR DEFEND THERE POSITION,

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## Baghial

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1264357263969525760


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## Fawadqasim1

Thorough Pro said:


> Unless the tree jumps in the middle of the road, it's always the driver who is at fault if it hits the tree because the driver did something wrong or did not do something right, you can't blame it on the weather.
> 
> 
> The final investigation would reveal the truth, but so far what's out in the public, looks like the initial descent was way too sharp and too far (right in the middle of the runway).
> 
> Looking at the pic showing damaged cowlings on both engines and no damage to the nose gear /nose gear door, probably the pilots either forgot to extend in a hurry as the plane had already overshot (first touch down halfway through the runway) or the gear was faulty and did not open.
> 
> If the pilots did extend the nose gear and it did not open, then the pilot should have not attempted to land halfway through the runway and done a go-around asking tower to watch/confirm the nose gear.
> 
> From the TC and pilot discussion already posted, the controller did ask if he was going for a belly landing? that means there was some issue with the nose gear and controller knew it, or else why would he ask that?
> 
> If there was an issue with the nose gear, then the sharp decent may explain that the pilot wanted to bump the nose gear out by intentionally doing a touch and go at a sharp angle but probably miscalculated and came in too sharp and bumped the engines on the runway in the process, and since he came in too sharp, it was difficult to gain speed and momentum again in a short time and since the engines were damaged (which he probably didn't know when he took off again but found out later when failed to attain the altitude controller asked him to maintain).
> 
> Since he was already at only 2000 feet with both engines dead and he took two turns, losing height at every turn he just crashed well short of the runway.
> 
> Allah knows best what happened and so many innocent people lost their lives. May ALLAH forgive them all and have mercy on their souls. Lately, there have been quite a few aviation accidents in Pakistan be it national or private carriers, and I am not sure how good the investigations were. But instead of shying out of the embarrassing outcome of the investigation, a professional and fair investigation should be done and the reasons found out. And more importantly, in light of these findings, laws, guidelines and procedures must be updated and training imparted to whoever/whatever is found lacking to avoid losses in the future.
> 
> And while the investigation is in process, there must be a total ban on all information leakage and anyone found guilty of breaching the trust and involved in criminal activity of leaking information in bits and pieces to cause confusion should be dealt with properly.


And what about the instruments onboard and on ground especially the people who manned the control tower it's very convenient to blame the dead isn't it
An airliner is not a bus and a Pilot is not a bus driver they the pilots heavily rely on instruments onboard and instruments and people on ground so


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## Baghial

Baghial said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1264357263969525760




RUNWAY CAMERA,S WILL CLEAR THE FAILED LANDING, IF THEY R RELEASED FOR PUBLIC,


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## Thorough Pro

Read the full post.
An example is just that an example to stress the point not to draw parallels.
I didn't blame anyone. I tried to discuss all points so far in public knowledge.
Equipment does fail and it's beyond the pilot's control, but there are procedures for such situation but the final decision is taken by the man on the steering, and that man would always be responsible for the outcome of that decision regardless of the good intentions.

Maybe he was trying to save the plane by giving it a try and not deciding to belly land in the first go? good intention but a disastrous outcome. Maybe he could have belly landed in the first go, ruined the plane but saved 100 lives?
Who knows? What has happened has happened. It is very easy for me or anyone else to sit behind a screen to write whatever, but nothing matters, what mattered was the decision and judgement of the decision-maker at that time, in that situation and he would be responsible for that. There is no other way about it.




Fawadqasim1 said:


> And what about the instruments onboard and on ground especially the people who manned the control tower it's very convenient to blame the dead isn't it
> An airliner is not a bus and a Pilot is not a bus driver they the pilots heavily rely on instruments onboard and on ground so

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## Fawadqasim1

Thorough Pro said:


> Read the full post.
> An example is just that an example to stress the point not to draw parallels.
> I didn't blame anyone. I tried to discuss all points so far in public knowledge.
> Equipment does fail and it's beyond the pilot's control, but there are procedures for such situation but the final decision is taken by the man on the steering, and that man would always be responsible for the outcome of that decision regardless of the good intentions.
> 
> Maybe he was trying to save the plane by giving it a try and not deciding to belly land in the first go? good intention but a disastrous outcome. Maybe he could have belly landed in the first go, ruined the plane but saved 100 lives?
> Who knows? What has happened has happened. It is very easy for me or anyone else to sit behind a screen to write whatever, but nothing matters, what mattered was the decision and judgement of the decision-maker at that in that situation and he would be responsible for that. There is no other way about it.


Please read my post no790 of this thread for an alternative explanation and possibility.


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## JonAsad

*I quote: 

Narrative Type: NTSB PRELIMINARY NARRATIVE (6120.19)*
The pilot reported that he began his descent in the airport traffic pattern when another airplane announced its position in the vicinity of the airport. The pilot turned his attention to the traffic and located it visually. The traffic collision avoidance system (TCAS) annunciated in the proximity of the other airplane. The turn to the base leg was made after passing the traffic. *During the base and final legs, the gear warning horn annunciated and the pilo*t stated he had mistaken it for the TCAS. The pilot landed *with the gear retracted and the airplane sustained substantial damage to fuselage supporting structure.*

The pilot reported he was wearing noise cancelling headphones during the flight but did state *he was able to hear the gear warning horn annunciate.*

After the accident, the airplane was placed on jacks and the landing gear was extended using the airplane's own systems and there was no indication of abnormal operation.

The pilot reported no preimpact mechanical failures or malfunctions with the airframe or engine that would have precluded normal operation.
*Narrative Type: NTSB PROBABLE CAUSE NARRATIVE
The pilot's failure to extend the landing gear prior to landing, which resulted in substantial damage to the fuselage during landing.* Contributing to the accident was the pilot's diverted attention to another airplane in the vicinity and that he inaccurately perceived the gear warning horn annunciator as the TCAS annunciator.
End quote..


Its highly unlikely that the pilot forgot to deploy landing gear.. putting the plane in landing mode will sound off warnings or blinkers at certain altitude if gear is not released.

Furthermore as quoted above no landing gear NO BOUNCE.. the PIA plane would have scrapped the termac all the way to the stop....

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## Fawadqasim1

When your instruments fail you absolutely,
And you hit the ground without your wheels hanging, there's no time to follow procedures only your trained instincts work
and they did what they had to do it's a gamble sometimes it pays off some times
It's ends up a bitch so


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## Thorough Pro

Again from what's out in the open, I don't think there was anything wrong with the plane other than a sticky nose gear. In case of equipment failure for height and speed, there are always redundant systems onboard the plane, even if that was the case (which it was not because the communication between TC and Pilot, did talk about altitude, the pilot knew what his altitude was) speed and altitude are monitored by the traffic controller and can be easily communicated to the pilot.




Fawadqasim1 said:


> Please read my post no790 of this thread for an alternative explanation and possibility.

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## Safriz

Look at this video.
Three sets of engine scraping marks on the runway.
Meaning both engines hit the runway three times.
How did that happen?



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1264583124379406336

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## Fawadqasim1

JonAsad said:


> The pilot's failure to extend the landing gear prior to landing, which resulted in substantial damage to the fuselage during landing.


The engines sustained most of the damage
not the fuselage.








Safriz said:


> Look at this video.
> Three sets of engine scraping marks on the runway.
> Meaning both engines hit the runway three times.
> How did that happen?
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1264583124379406336


That shows that the pilots were confident regarding the deployment of their landing gear.



Thorough Pro said:


> Again from what's out in the open, I don't think there was anything wrong with the plane other than a sticky nose gear. In case of equipment failure for height and speed, there are always redundant systems onboard the plane, even if that was the case (which it was not because the communication between TC and Pilot, did talk about altitude, the pilot knew what his altitude was) speed and altitude are monitored by the traffic controller and can be easily communicated to the pilot.


On a good day yes in a perfect storm situation no


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## Ahmet Pasha

So he crashed on final?


Baghial said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1264357263969525760


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## JonAsad

Fawadqasim1 said:


> The engines sustained most of the damage
> not the fuselage.
> View attachment 635217



My man, i quoted another incident report to compare what happens when a plane touches down without landing gear.. there are no bounces..





@2.40 Mark, listen to the passenger narrative...

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## SQ8

Mrc said:


> U are 'it required to fast when traveling


Talking about ATC, although the airblue crash(also in Ramadan) was due to the fault of the exhausted pilot who was fasting - leading to poor judgement and essentially killing all on board.


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## Thorough Pro

Aren't we discussing PIA 8303 specifically? What storm was there on that day?
Don't go on different tangents just for the sake of argument.
I had a point of view, if you don't agree, let's agree to disagree and move on rather than dragging the discussion in an irrelevant direction.




Fawadqasim1 said:


> The engines sustained most of the damage
> not the fuselage.
> View attachment 635217
> 
> 
> 
> That shows that the pilots were confident regarding the deployment of their landing gear.
> 
> 
> On a good day yes in a perfect storm situation no

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## Fawadqasim1

Thorough Pro said:


> Aren't we discussing PIA 8303 specifically? What storm was there on that day?
> Don't go on different tangents just for the sake of argument.
> I had a point of view, if you don't agree, let's agree to disagree and move on rather than dragging the discussion in an irrelevant direction.


A perfect storm means 


an especially bad situation caused by a combination of unfavourable circumstances.
"the past two years have been a perfect storm for the travel industry"

Definitions from Oxford Languages


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## Shahzaz ud din

*Mayday.. Mayday - it's amazing how cool & calm the captain was.*
*



*

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## Fawadqasim1

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> They are banned---. But Pilots don't give a sh-it about it---. They seek refuge under the banner of being a muslim---.
> 
> 
> If the pilot was fasting---he is a MURDERER & not a Shaheed---.


Et tu, Brute


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## HammerHead081

Just let PIA go bankrupt and sell all of its assets. Its an international embarrassment now and a danger to our citizens.

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## Thorough Pro

LOL ......... I understand the term, I wasn't asking about the weather storm, rather the "perfect storm". There was probably just one issue with the nose gear not lowering. Not multiple issues as you are trying to table as until now there is no such indication in public knowledge. 



Fawadqasim1 said:


> A perfect storm means
> 
> 
> an especially bad situation caused by a combination of unfavourable circumstances.
> "the past two years have been a perfect storm for the travel industry"
> 
> Definitions from Oxford Languages


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## El Sidd

HammerHead081 said:


> Just let PIA go bankrupt and sell all of its assets. Its an international embarrassment now and a danger to our citizens.



There will be an investigation.

Keep your schemes to yourself till the investigation is completed.

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## Fawadqasim1

Thorough Pro said:


> LOL ......... I understand the term, I wasn't asking about the weather storm, rather the "perfect storm". There was probably just one issue with the nose gear not lowering. Not multiple issues as you are trying to table as until now there is no such indication in public knowledge.


That's exactly what I am contemplating we
Know very little at this point we should not pass a verdict against the pilots offhand and in haste with such scarce and sparse data. That's all eid Mubarak

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## Thorough Pro

He was calm because he thought there was no emergency at that time or did not realize how grave the situation was, the panic would have struck the moment he calls mayday mayday mayday, probably at that point the plane just dipped and he realized they are not going to make it. May ALLAH have mercy on the departed souls.



Shahzaz ud din said:


> *Mayday.. Mayday - it's amazing how cool & calm the captain was.*
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *

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## HammerHead081

El Sidd said:


> There will be an investigation.
> 
> Keep your schemes to yourself till the investigation is completed.


What is wrong with my schemes if PIA has been nothing but disastrous for Pakistan for past years?! A big burden on our economy. Either sell all of its assets or privatize it. They should have done it as soon as CEO of PIA lost his case in Supreme court. There is no winning after he lost his case, ghost employees are still working at PIA and they are in hundreds.


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## Enigma SIG

Thorough Pro said:


> He was calm because he thought there was no emergency at that time or did not realize how grave the situation was, the panic would have struck the moment he calls mayday mayday mayday, probably at that point the plane just dipped and he realized they are not going to make it. May ALLAH have mercy on the departed souls.


IMHO he shouldn't have taken off when he scraped the runway for so long. Should've taken his chances on the ground rather than in the air. Hindsight is 20/20 of course and judging is easy as long as we're not in the pilots seat.

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## El Sidd

HammerHead081 said:


> What is wrong with my schemes if PIA has been nothing but disastrous for Pakistan for past years?! A big burden on our economy. Either sell all of its assets or privatize it. They should have done it as soon as CEO of PIA lost his case in Supreme court. There is no winning after he lost his case, ghost employees are still working at PIA and they are in hundreds.



Let the investigation take place.

With economic hitmen at the helm you may get your wish in the end


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## JonAsad

That Jerking may have been caused by the landing gears being deployed.. the drag they created with both engines down led to the plane to fall from the sky.. with both engines failed the pilot should have waited until the last moment to deploy the landing gear...


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## Enigma SIG

El Sidd said:


> Let the investigation take place.
> 
> With economic hitmen at the helm you may get your wish in the end


Bechne dain sir. Why do you want to keep a loss making SOE?


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## Thorough Pro

I agree, but the problem was his first touch down was to way too far and maybe he didn't realize that he had scrapped/damaged the engines, besides when you are intentionally coming in for a touch and go hoping to bump out the nose gear, you are coming in slightly sharp and fast and committed to take off again, it all happens within seconds and you don't have time to look out the window and see if the engines are damaged or not. I think the manoeuvre was fine but the execution was not perfect.

We need to realize this kind of things are practised on simulators only and I am not sure how frequently? so when you come face to face with such a situation it's always going to be risky.




Enigma SIG said:


> IMHO he shouldn't have taken off when he scraped the runway for so long. Should've taken his chances on the ground rather than in the air. Hindsight is 20/20 of course and judging is easy as long as we're not in the pilots seat.

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## Enigma SIG

Thorough Pro said:


> I agree, but the problem was his first touch down was to way too far and maybe he didn't realize that he had scrapped/damaged the engines, besides when you are intentionally coming in for a touch and go hoping to bump out the nose gear, you are coming in slightly sharp and fast and committed to take off again, it all happens within seconds and you don't have time to look out the window and see if the engines are damaged or not. I think the manoeuvre was fine but the execution was not perfect.
> 
> We need to realize this kind of things are practised on simulators only and I am not sure how frequently? so when you come face to face with such a situation it's always going to be risky.


Usually pilots on jets have to re-certify every year in the US (someone correct me if i'm wrong, vaguely remember from Premier1Driver youtube video). I don't get how the pilot managed to put it down in the middle of the runway. He wasn't properly configured for landing is my opinion.


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## JonAsad

Enigma SIG said:


> Bechne dain sir. Why do you want to keep a loss making SOE?


*PIA records 43% increase in profit for year 2019*

https://www.google.com/amp/s/tribun...a-records-43-increase-profit-year-2019/?amp=1


Why news like such fails to reach people like you?

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## Enigma SIG

JonAsad said:


> *PIA records 43% increase in profit for year 2019*
> 
> https://www.google.com/amp/s/tribune.com.pk/story/2224621/1-pia-records-43-increase-profit-year-2019/?amp=1
> 
> 
> Why news like such fails to reach people like you?


"It is for the first time in eight years that PIA has been able to achieve a gross profit of Rs7.8 billion against gross loss of Rs19.7 billion in 2018."

I'm all for running this indefinitely but SOE's have proven to be a breeding ground for vote bank politics. Unless you decouple political appointments within these (good luck with that) this is going to be very short term.

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## Blacklight

HammerHead081 said:


> What is wrong with my schemes if PIA has been nothing but disastrous for Pakistan for past years?! A big burden on our economy. Either sell all of its assets or privatize it. They should have done it as soon as CEO of PIA lost his case in Supreme court. There is no winning after he lost his case, ghost employees are still working at PIA and they are in hundreds.


When "Ghost Employees" of any state owned enterprise are fired "Jamhooriat khatray may aajati hai"

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## HammerHead081

These government institutions like PIA and Railway need to be privatized over time. The best way to make money for government is to make these institutions good enough so they are privatized and sold to competent companies over profit. Then this process is repeated again and again. Makes you wonder what a retard like Bhutto was doing nationalizing stuff?

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## Blacklight

Thorough Pro said:


> I agree, but the problem was his first touch down was to way too far and maybe he didn't realize that he had scrapped/damaged the engines, besides when you are intentionally coming in for a touch and go hoping to bump out the nose gear, you are coming in slightly sharp and fast and committed to take off again, it all happens within seconds and you don't have time to look out the window and see if the engines are damaged or not. I think the manoeuvre was fine but the execution was not perfect.
> 
> We need to realize this kind of things are practised on simulators only and I am not sure how frequently? so when you come face to face with such a situation it's always going to be risky.


CAA does test for new pilots in the UAE. Either we dont have sims, or not enough. There is something seriously wrong with Pak Civil Aviation industry not having enough Sims, if at all.


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

This is a flight simulation of the accident---but the voices are actal---@ 3:41 onwards you can hear it in the voice of the Co pilot or the Pilot that they are going to die---the hopelessness in those 1/2 sentences just tears thru the heart---.

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## Fawadqasim1

There was something wrong with the whole landing gear not just the nose gear and I want to ask a question to whom it may concern how did the aircraft got acceleration/power/lift after scraping the runway with it's engines multiple times i.e 
How could they fly again after loosing momentum and air under it's wings without the wheels and if there were wheels the damage to the engines in the photographs
Would not have occurred that way it does not compute there's something fishy about the whole narrative.


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## MastanKhan

Fawadqasim1 said:


> There was something wrong with the whole landing gear not just the nose gear and I want to ask a question to whom it may concern how did the aircraft got acceleration/power/lift after scraping the runway with it's engines multiple times i.e
> How could they fly again after loosing momentum and air under it's wings without the wheels and if there were wheels the damage to the engines in the photographs
> Would not have occurred that way it does not compute there's something fishy about the whole narrative.



Hi,

There was nothing wrong with the landing gear---.

The aircraft was to high at 5 nautical miles to the runway---it was at 3500 feet whereas it should have been around 2000 feet---. 

His speed was too high---possibly above 250 knots---at the speed the landing gear will not come down---and chimes will sound in the cockpit---and you can hear them sound---.

As the speed was too high---the pilot push the throttles against the wall---the engines were working perfect till that time and gave immediate thrust to take off again---.

This also shows that the aircraft was too fast to land because it was way above the take off speed after it hit the runway---.

The bottom of the engines were smashed when it hit the tarmac---a visual report by airport official says the aircraft hit tarmac three time---.

First left engine hot at 4500 ft marker then at about the same distance the right engine hit the tarmac---plane took off and fell back at 5500 foot marker where both engines hit the tarmac at the same time and then took off again---.

After it took off an climbed---the engine speed came down to below 250 knots and the wheels came down---.

And that is another tragedy----as the engines were now shutting down due to damage and there was power loss---the hanging wheels created a MASSIVE DRAG ON THE AIRCRAFT FLIGHT---. If now the wheels were kept up---with lesser drag the aircraft could have reached the runway for a belly landing---.

Whatever problems occurred were before the first landing attempt that caused the disaster---.

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## Baghial

JonAsad said:


> My man, i quoted another incident report to compare what happens when a plane touches down without landing gear.. there are no bounces..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @2.40 Mark, listen to the passenger narrative...




well , here, a 320-------finest, but still error, while landing

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## Fawadqasim1

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> There was nothing wrong with the landing gear---.
> 
> The aircraft was to high at 5 nautical miles to the runway---it was at 3500 feet whereas it should have been around 2000 feet---.
> 
> His speed was too high---possibly above 250 knots---at the speed the landing gear will not come down---and chimes will sound in the cockpit---and you can hear them sound---.
> 
> As the speed was too high---the pilot push the throttles against the wall---the engines were working perfect till that time and gave immediate thrust to take off again---.
> 
> This also shows that the aircraft was too fast to land because it was way above the take off speed after it hit the runway---.
> 
> The bottom of the engines were smashed when it hit the tarmac---a visual report by airport official says the aircraft hit tarmac three time---.
> 
> First left engine hot at 4500 ft marker then at about the same distance the right engine hit the tarmac---plane took off and fell back at 5500 foot marker where both engines hit the tarmac at the same time and then took off again---.
> 
> After it took off an climbed---the engine speed came down to below 250 knots and the wheels came down---.
> 
> And that is another tragedy----as the engines were now shutting down due to damage and there was power loss---the hanging wheels created a MASSIVE DRAG ON THE AIRCRAFT FLIGHT---. If now the wheels were kept up---with lesser drag the aircraft could have reached the runway for a belly landing---.
> 
> Whatever problems occurred were before the first landing attempt that caused the disaster---.


But the question is why both the alt and the speed were that high I mean all the three failed 1)pilots 2)aircraft instruments and 3)control tower how can that happen.


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## El Sidd

Enigma SIG said:


> Bechne dain sir. Why do you want to keep a loss making SOE?



because it can be turned around.


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## Thorough Pro

They didn't fail immediately, scrapping caused some damage to the lower part that probably damaged fuel lines and the failure followed after a couple of seconds in the air



Fawadqasim1 said:


> There was something wrong with the whole landing gear not just the nose gear and I want to ask a question to whom it may concern how did the aircraft got acceleration/power/lift after scraping the runway with it's engines multiple times i.e
> How could they fly again after loosing momentum and air under it's wings without the wheels and if there were wheels the damage to the engines in the photographs
> Would not have occurred that way it does not compute there's something fishy about the whole narrative.



The CT-Pilot communication released is not enough to tell the full story, it should be the last 15 minutes because approximately that is when the landing gears are engaged before the landing.

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## Fawadqasim1

Thorough Pro said:


> They didn't fail immediately, scrapping caused some damage to the lower part that probably damaged fuel lines and the failure followed after a couple of seconds in the air
> 
> 
> 
> The CT-Pilot communication released is not enough to tell the full story, it should be the last 15 minutes because approximately that is when the landing gears are engaged before the landing.


But as mastan Khan stated both the speed
and the alt were very high at first approach
It shows a total system failure pilots, instruments, control tower etc


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## Aspen

I worked out altitude data. Based on this data, here is what I found:

8,000 feet 3 minutes from touchdown

3,500 feet 5 nm from runway

1,500 feet 4 nm from runway

1,300 feet 1 minute from touchdown

nm=nautical miles

fpm = feet per minute descending

35,000 feet to 10,000 feet in 13 minutes (1,900 fpm descent)

10,000 feet to touchdown in 4 minutes (2,500 fpm descent)

10,000 feet to 2,000 feet in 120 seconds (4,000 fpm descent)

8,000 feet to 2,000 feet in 90 seconds (4,000 fpm descent)

8,000 feet to 1,300 feet in 120 seconds (3,300 fpm descent)

Possible explanation for why pilots forgot the gear:

Can someone tell me if this is possible?

Plane is at 35,000 feet.
ATC tells plane to descend to 10,000 feet
Plane descends to 10,000 feet
ATC tells plane to descend from 10,000 to waypoint
Pilots take too long to start descending and then rapidly dump altitude to descend in order to meet waypoint since they have less time
Pilots continue rapid descent dumping altitude quickly. At 8,000 feet, they were 3 minutes from runway, at 1,300 feet they were 1 minute from the runway. So they descended 6,000 feet in 90 seconds.
Plane approaches waypoint at too high an altitude.
At 5 nm waypoint from runway, plane should be 1,700 feet, but it was actually at 3,500 feet (too high).
ATC offers pilots a circling vector so they can circle and dump excess altitude and approach waypoint a 2nd time at a lower altitude.
Pilots decline ATC’s offer for circling vector to burn off and dump excess altitude, they tell ATC they can make ILS 25L from their current altitude 3,500 (which is too high).
Plane was 3,500 feet at 5nm, 1,500 feet at 4nm. So they dumped 2,000 feet in 1 nm.
During this rapid descent, pilots tried to lower gear earlier than usual to reduce speed and dump altitude.
Pilot moves gear lever in cockpit in down position for gear down, but plane was going too fast to extend the gear so pilots got an overspeed warning, indicating gear cannot extend while plane is going faster than 260kts, but lever does not move back to up position, lever stays in down position even though overspeed warning means the landing gear is actually in up position.
Pilots complete landing checklist, lever in down position indicates that gear is down as normal. Cockpit gear lever in down position at approach speed near runway also means that no EGPWS alarm would not be going off, when in reality the overspeed warning earlier means the landing gear is actually still in up position. Since gear overspeed warning only sounds when plane is faster than 260kts, the plane would be slower than 260kts near the runway and the gear overspeed warning would have turned off. Since cockpit gear lever is in correct down position as normal, and lever in down position means EGPWS thinks gear is down, EGPWS alarm is not going off. In reality, the gear overspeed warning earlier in the flight was ignored by accident because the pilots should have moved cockpit gear lever back in up position immediately after getting overspeed warning, slow down below 260kts, and then try second time to move gear lever into down position again at a lower speed. The gear lever does not automatically move back up if you get an overspeed warning, so if you forget to immediately put the lever back up when gear fails to go down, later you will think that gear lever is correct as showing gear down when it is actually wrong and gear is up. After several minutes, pilots may have forgotten that they never tried to lower the gear again a second time after the gear overspeed warning and thought it was already down based on the fact that gear lever in cockpit was in correct position (which they forgot to move back up since overspeed warning meant gear did not go down) and no EGPWS alarm was going off. In reality, since the gear lever did not automatically move back up when overspeed warning failed to extend gear, pilots thought their landing gear was down when it was actually in up position.
Plane is approaching runway very fast at high speed, everything else looks normal, gear lever is down, no alarms are going off.
Plane hits the ground on just engines, this is the first time pilots realize that gear is up, big surprise to pilots. The first point that the plane touches down is halfway along the runway, so only half of the runway is left when they first hit the ground.
Engines scrape ground causing black skid marks
Pilot instinct is to pull up and abort a bad landing which is what they are trained to do. Since the plane was already coming in very fast and touched down halfway along the runway, pilots were already thinking about going around even before landing, and with half the runway left, they knew they would overshoot the end of the runway if they tried to stop so they aborted instead.
Plane goes around for 2nd landing attempt
Plane circles in air for 5 minutes to get back to runway
During these 5 minutes, hydraulic fluid and oil is rapidly leaking out from pipes that were scraped on bottom of engine. Fuel is NOT leaking out.
Total loss of hydraulic failure after all hydraulic fluid leaks out from ruptured hydraulic pipes on bottom of both scraped engines, flaps stop working and landing gear issues get worse. White smoke in PSPK picture is hydraulic fluid leaking out of bottom of the scraped engine.
All oil rapidly leaks out from oil sumps on bottom of both scraped engines, without oil both engines overheat and shut down, plane now becomes glider with no thrust. Fan blades in engine are intact which means engines were not running when plane crashed.
Ram Air Turbine automatically deploys when both engines shut down to power critical electronics in cockpit.
Since both engines stop working, plane rapidly loses altitude and starts gliding.
PSPK picture with RAT deployed is taken
Landing gear is manually deployed by gravity drop increasing drag and makes gliding more difficult
Plane loses even more altitude as it makes left turn over Model Colony to line up with 25L
Plane lines up with 25L but it lost too much altitude by deploying gear early and then lost more altitude by making turn to 25L. Plane is now critically low and cannot make it to runway.
Plane was only leaking hydraulic fluid and oil, not fuel so there is plenty of fuel left when plane crashes causing massive fireball on CCTV video.
It turns out the theory that the plane had gear down and then bounced and aborted a hard landing, retracted gear early, and scraped engine is wrong. Gear retraction takes 8 seconds so if plane had retracted gear after bounce but before TOGA thrust kicks in, it would have bounced back down in 1-2 seconds while gear retraction takes 8 seconds. There would not have been enough time for landing gear to fully retract in only a 1-2 second bounce. Landing gear doors would have been ripped off at the same time the engines scraped the ground like in Smartlynx incident in Estonia. We know from PSPK pictures that landing gear doors are clean, there is no sign of any damage or ripped landing gear doors. So this means only way it could have no damage to landing gear doors is if landing gear was never deployed in the first place, and only engines scraped ground. The very long skid marks on runway could be either because TOGA took a long time to spool up since friction would make it hard to get airborne again, or alternatively it could be because TOGA in Airbus is not a button like in Boeing, you have to push throttle levers all the way forward to activate TOGA, if you only moves throttle partially, it will not activate TOGA. So this could have delayed response by a few seconds.

Huge question is why did ATC not say a word if they saw a plane coming for approach with no landing gear?

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## MastanKhan

Fawadqasim1 said:


> But the question is why both the alt and the speed were that high I mean all the three failed 1)pilots 2)aircraft instruments and 3)control tower how can that happen.



Hi,

Only the Pilot failed---.

The Controller can only request information---.

More info coming out suggests that where the aircraft was supposed to be at 7000 ft it was at 10000 ft

close to the runway where it was supposed to be at 1000 ft---it was at 1500 ft and then off course the speed---.

It was till this information came out---all points towards PILOT ERROR---.

Tower has no blame---visibility clear---.

*Only and only one aircraft possibly in the air flying over whole of pakistan and the Pilot botched the landing---and smashed the aircraft into the tarmac multiple times---.*

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## Naram_Sin

Life is such a harsh and unfair place.

May god have mercy on the victims and sooth the sorrow of their families and loved ones.


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## MastanKhan

Aspen said:


> I worked out altitude data. Based on this data, here is what I found:
> 
> 8,000 feet 3 minutes from touchdown
> 
> 3,500 feet 5 nm from runway
> 
> 1,500 feet 4 nm from runway
> 
> 1,300 feet 1 minute from touchdown
> 
> nm=nautical miles
> 
> fpm = feet per minute descending
> 
> 35,000 feet to 10,000 feet in 13 minutes (1,900 fpm descent)
> 
> 10,000 feet to touchdown in 4 minutes (2,500 fpm descent)
> 
> 10,000 feet to 2,000 feet in 120 seconds (4,000 fpm descent)
> 
> 8,000 feet to 2,000 feet in 90 seconds (4,000 fpm descent)
> 
> 8,000 feet to 1,300 feet in 120 seconds (3,300 fpm descent)
> 
> Possible explanation for why pilots forgot the gear:
> 
> Can someone tell me if this is possible?
> 
> Plane is at 35,000 feet.
> ATC tells plane to descend to 10,000 feet
> Plane descends to 10,000 feet
> ATC tells plane to descend from 10,000 to waypoint
> Pilots take too long to start descending and then rapidly dump altitude to descend in order to meet waypoint since they have less time
> Pilots continue rapid descent dumping altitude quickly. At 8,000 feet, they were 3 minutes from runway, at 1,300 feet they were 1 minute from the runway. So they descended 6,000 feet in 90 seconds.
> Plane approaches waypoint at too high an altitude.
> At 5 nm waypoint from runway, plane should be 1,700 feet, but it was actually at 3,500 feet (too high).
> ATC offers pilots a circling vector so they can circle and dump excess altitude and approach waypoint a 2nd time at a lower altitude.
> Pilots decline ATC’s offer for circling vector to burn off and dump excess altitude, they tell ATC they can make ILS 25L from their current altitude 3,500 (which is too high).
> Plane was 3,500 feet at 5nm, 1,500 feet at 4nm. So they dumped 2,000 feet in 1 nm.
> During this rapid descent, pilots tried to lower gear earlier than usual to reduce speed and dump altitude.
> Pilot moves gear lever in cockpit in down position for gear down, but plane was going too fast to extend the gear so pilots got an overspeed warning, indicating gear cannot extend while plane is going faster than 260kts, but lever does not move back to up position, lever stays in down position even though overspeed warning means the landing gear is actually in up position.
> Pilots complete landing checklist, lever in down position indicates that gear is down as normal. Cockpit gear lever in down position at approach speed near runway also means that no EGPWS alarm would not be going off, when in reality the overspeed warning earlier means the landing gear is actually still in up position. Since gear overspeed warning only sounds when plane is faster than 260kts, the plane would be slower than 260kts near the runway and the gear overspeed warning would have turned off. Since cockpit gear lever is in correct down position as normal, and lever in down position means EGPWS thinks gear is down, EGPWS alarm is not going off. In reality, the gear overspeed warning earlier in the flight was ignored by accident because the pilots should have moved cockpit gear lever back in up position immediately after getting overspeed warning, slow down below 260kts, and then try second time to move gear lever into down position again at a lower speed. The gear lever does not automatically move back up if you get an overspeed warning, so if you forget to immediately put the lever back up when gear fails to go down, later you will think that gear lever is correct as showing gear down when it is actually wrong and gear is up. After several minutes, pilots may have forgotten that they never tried to lower the gear again a second time after the gear overspeed warning and thought it was already down based on the fact that gear lever in cockpit was in correct position (which they forgot to move back up since overspeed warning meant gear did not go down) and no EGPWS alarm was going off. In reality, since the gear lever did not automatically move back up when overspeed warning failed to extend gear, pilots thought their landing gear was down when it was actually in up position.
> Approaching runway, everything looks normal, gear lever is down, no alarms are going off.
> Plane hits the ground with landing gear up
> It turns out the theory that the plane had gear down and then bounced and aborted a hard landing, retracted gear early, and scraped engine is wrong. Gear retraction takes 8 seconds so if plane had retracted gear after bounce but before TOGA thrust kicks in, it would have bounced back down in 1-2 seconds while gear retraction takes 8 seconds. There would not have been enough time for landing gear to fully retract in only a 1-2 second bounce. Landing gear doors would have been ripped off at the same time the engines scraped the ground like in Smartlynx incident in Estonia. We know from PSPK pictures that landing gear doors are clean, there is no sign of any damage or ripped landing gear doors. So this means only way it could have no damage to landing gear doors is if landing gear was never deployed in the first place, and only engines scraped ground. The very long skid marks on runway could be either because TOGA took a long time to spool up since friction would make it hard to get airborne again, or alternatively it could be because TOGA in Airbus is not a button like in Boeing, you have to push throttle levers all the way forward to activate TOGA, if you only moves throttle partially, it will not activate TOGA. So this could have delayed response by a few seconds.
> 
> Huge question is why did ATC not say a word if they saw a plane coming for approach with no landing gear?



Hi,

The reason the control tower was not involved was because of the height and speed of the aircraft the ATC had not handed the aircraft over to the ground control tower---.

The landing gear did not come down was because the speed was above 250 knots where landing gear wuld not deploy---.

The not deployed landing gear chimes were on warning the pilot that the gear is not down---.

The question is what was the hurry to the pilot to descend so fast and land rather than going around and coming back---.

This is the crucial question---we understand that the Pilot was " hot dogging " the aircraft---but why and what caused him not to heed the warning of the air controller to go around---.

The other thin is---there were no other flights in the skies---no flights backing up---no worries of delays or late departure---what was the reason the pilot decided to land the first time---?

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## Thorough Pro

@MK you are being too judgemental and rude, the whole story is not even out yet.

The situation will be a lot clearer if the last 15 minutes of communication between the pilot and ATC is released without any edits. what's released only gives half the picture and creates a lot of confusion




MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Only the Pilot failed---.
> 
> The Controller can only request information---.
> 
> More info coming out suggests that where the aircraft was supposed to be at 7000 ft it was at 10000 ft
> 
> close to the runway where it was supposed to be at 1000 ft---it was at 1500 ft and then off course the speed---.
> 
> It was till this information came out---all points towards PILOT ERROR---.
> 
> Tower has no blame---visibility clear---.
> 
> *Only and only one aircraft possibly in the air flying over whole of pakistan and the Pilot botched the landing---and smashed the aircraft into the tarmac multiple times---.*

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## Aspen

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The reason the control tower was not involved was because of the height and speed of the aircraft the ATC had not handed the aircraft over to the ground control tower---.
> 
> The landing gear did not come down was because the speed was above 250 knots where landing gear wuld not deploy---.
> 
> The not deployed landing gear chimes were on warning the pilot that the gear is not down---.
> 
> The question is what was the hurry to the pilot to descend so fast and land rather than going around and coming back---.
> 
> This is the crucial question---we understand that the Pilot was " hot dogging " the aircraft---but why and what caused him not to heed the warning of the air controller to go around---.
> 
> The other thin is---there were no other flights in the skies---no flights backing up---no worries of delays or late departure---what was the reason the pilot decided to land the first time---?



Short version of story is basically this:

The pilots started descending late and were too high when they hit first waypoint. The hurry to descend was because they were at a very high altitude considering that they were just a few miles from the runway and you have to hit certain waypoints on the approach path at the correct altitude. Since they started descending late, they had a limited window of time as they got closer to the runway as they will have to reduce altitude faster than if they had started descending earlier. It is actually very normal to be too high on descent, it happens to pilots everyday. This can be caused because of various reasons like other planes passing below before you get cleared to descend into busy airspace like Karachi. The solution is usually to go into a holding pattern to get lower before you enter runway approach. ATC offered a delay vector to circle and burn off speed and dump excess altitude but pilots continued saying they are comfortable and can make ILS 25L direct. To be honest, I don't know why the pilots wanted to continue such a steep descent instead of taking their time and using the circle vector that ATC offered them. They proceed to dump altitude very rapidly, from 8,000 feet to 2,000 feet in 90 seconds. 5 miles from runway, they were at 3,500 feet when they should have been at 1,700 feet. They wanted to deploy gear earlier than usual to create drag and slow down and dump excess altitude. To lower gear, there is a gear lever in the cockpit and you have to move this gear lever to down position which they did. But they got overspeed warning because you cannot deploy gear when you are going faster than 260kts which they were. Overspeed gear warning means the gear failed to extend, but the gear lever does not automatically move back up. So in the cockpit, it would look like gear lever is still in correct position, but in reality, gear never lowered because of overspeed warning. Standard SOP if you get overspeed gear warning is to immediately move gear lever back up, slow down below 260kts, and try to extend gear again 2nd time. But the pilots did not move gear lever back up immediately after they got overspeed warning and after a few minutes forgot to try extending gear a second time since gear lever was in down position like normal. Plane was landing very fast and touched down halfway along the runway. The first time they realized the gear was up was when they hit the ground which would have been a big surprise, and pilot instinct is to pull up and abort a bad landing which is what they are trained to do. Since the plane was already coming in very fast and touched down halfway along the runway, pilots were already thinking about going around even before landing, and with half the runway left, they knew they would overshoot the end of the runway if they tried to stop so they aborted instead.

I agree if ATC told pilots to do a full stop even if it meant going off the runway would have saved it.

5 ways PK8303 could have been saved:

If Pilots took delay vector to circle and dump excess altitude
Checking 3 green lights for landing gear down
If ATC told pilots to do full stop on runway
Doing a faster 180 approach to 7R instead of long 360 circle back to 25L
On 2nd attempt, doing a belly landing or dropping gear at absolute last second to reduce drag and glide as far as possible after both engines failed. British Airways Flight 38 retracted gear to reduce drag after it lost both engines and successfully managed to just barely glide over some houses before it hit runway. Dropping gear too early increases drag and makes it harder to glide further. Considering how close it got to runway, keeping gear retracted longer on 2nd attempt would very likely have been enough for to it glide all the way back to the runway safely.

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## Aspen

In the graph below, the orange line shows altitude and the blue represents how fast it is descending or ascending. For example, -4000 means the plane was descending at 4000 feet per minute at that exact second. 4000 means the plane was ascending at 4000 feet per minute at that exact second. The blue area on the left side of the graph shows the descent to 1st landing, the farther down the blue goes, the faster the descent was at that specific second. The blue area starting at 9:34:53 is when the plane aborts and starts ascending again, at 9:36:33, both engines fail and plane starts descending again during circle back to 2nd attempt to land when it crashes at the end.

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## Aspen

Flight timeline

9:32:53: Plane is at 2,000 feet and is descending at 7,000 feet per minute for 5-10 seconds

60 seconds later

9:33:53: Plane reaches 1,000 feet, speed is still too fast

40 seconds later

9:34:33: High speed landing, first touchdown is halfway down the runway

20 seconds later

9:34:53: Plane aborts as TOGA power kicks in, begins climbing again

60 seconds later

9:35:53: Both engines fail, plane continues climbing for about 30 seconds

30 seconds later

9:36:23: Plane starts losing altitude

4 minutes and 10 seconds later

9:40:03: Plane crashes

From abort to crash, plane was in the air for total 5 minutes 10 seconds

Really good analysis, for people who don't want to read my long post, this is basically the same thing I am saying. You might have to skip first few minutes until they starting talking about PIA.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Airbus does not allow landing gear to deploy if the aircraft is faster than 260kts. He was probably too fast, LG didn't deploy, he hit 25L hard, scraped engines, should've stayed down instead of a go around all over again(especially bcz pilot was already having engine trouble for the first landing).

He probably ignored LG failure warning because of first engine failure prior to landing attempt.

Politically motivated ground crew might be behind the first engine failure. 

P.S
Seemed like a clear day. Don't know why they were doing a vls approach instead of vfr.


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## Raider 21

Enigma SIG said:


> Sarcastic much? 2 pilots in the cockpit making the same mistake? For both of them to actually miss the landing gear not deployed warning has a statistical possibility bordering on 1 in a billion. The ECAM displays a L/G NOT DOWN warning after passing 750ft and for both pilots to miss it is either monumental stupidity or that it didn't happen in the first place.


ECAM will clearly show L/G status, WARNING and MASTER CAUTION would be lit as well. Apparently there are skid marks on the runway so they may really would have touched down before trying a go around. The survivors though never mentioned that. But if it were the case, I gotta hand it to the crew that other than crashing fatally, they managed to get airborne after touching the runway. Never seen anything like this, and really amazed at how ATC Karachi were not very concerned, might be a normal sight for them or unconcerned.



Baghial said:


> *Pakistani tv is showing images of scrape marks on the Karachi runway, purportedly caused by the engines of PIA flight #PK8303.*
> The photos confirm the A320 made a go-around after the engines touched the runway. The ATC was also mentioning a belly landing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PIA Airbus A320 (aircraft registration AP-BLD) engines scrape marks on Karachi Airport Runway 25L.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The RAT was deployed confirming that both engines failed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> watch the video above, many things will be clear....


The marks are too close for the engines positioned on the aircraft

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## Secularindian

Crash explained by desi vlogger 
For Indian and Pakistani 
Simple language

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## Fawadqasim1

How they (trained and seasoned pilots) failed to gauge their approach speed which was allegedly above 260 nauts

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## Aspen

Couple of observations:

1. One possible explanation for why pilots started descent late and were higher than they were supposed to be at waypoint is that they input runway 7R into FMGS instead of runway 25L. 7R approach will continue cruise altitude for longer than 25L approach. If they were following 7R path input on FMGS, they would still be at a higher altitude than the 25L waypoint where they should already have started descending and be much lower. Maybe they realized their mistake of putting in wrong runway into FMGS and rushed approach when they realized they should already have started descending much sooner.

2. If pilots put gear lever in down position but landing gear cannot extend while plane is going faster than 260kts, does it automatically go down when plane goes below 260kts or do pilots have to do it again a 2nd time? If pilots select gear lever down above 260kts and then slow down, if the gear deploys automatically to match the gear lever under 260kts and gear never lowered at all, does that mean the plane never slowed down and was always going above 260kts when it hit the runway? Because in automatic gear extension below 260 to match down lever position, only explanation I can think of is that pilots never slowed below 260kts on 1st landing so gear did not extend. When both engines failed later after go around, plane slowed below 260kts and gear automatically extended without pilot command since it was set to this position originally before 1st landing when they were overspeeding. If pilots noticed that gear was being extended after both engines failed, they could immediately have retracted it because gear down position causes a lot of drag which makes it harder to glide to runway without engine power. It is very likely that if gear automatically extended after go around and pilots acted quickly to retract it so they could keep gliding further, they could have made it all the way to the runway. On a side note, some of the warnings in cockpit could have been overspeed not just for gear but also flaps. 260kts is max speed when you cannot deploy gear but I think there is also a speed where you cannot deploy flaps if you are going too fast as well.

3. Who is it that actually cleared the plane to land? I find it amazing that ATC could clear it to land if they saw the plane missing gear down. More likely is that it actually wasn’t even ATC who cleared the plane for landing in the first place. On tape recording, it sounds like Karachi Approach control gave plane direct clearance to land from waypoint because it is the same person talking from ground for the entire tape recording. Karachi Approach control is a building with no windows. So there may not have been anyone in KHI ATC tower who was specifically looking at or monitoring this plane since Karachi Approach control gave the direct clearance. So no one in ATC tower would have spotted that plane is coming in without gear. Sounds like a huge safety mistake on part of Approach Control, they should have handed it off to ATC instead of giving a direct runway landing clearance to pilots since Approach Control is in a windowless building while ATC can see the plane clearly.

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## Enigma SIG

Knuckles said:


> ECAM will clearly show L/G status, WARNING and MASTER CAUTION would be lit as well. Apparently there are skid marks on the runway so they may really would have touched down before trying a go around. The survivors though never mentioned that. But if it were the case, I gotta hand it to the crew that other than crashing fatally, they managed to get airborne after touching the runway. Never seen anything like this, and really amazed at how ATC Karachi were not very concerned, might be a normal sight for them or unconcerned.
> 
> 
> The marks are too close for the engines positioned on the aircraft


Well after listening to the latest about the height/speed data; i'm wondering why the pilot coming in hot? Even if L/G wasn't engaged it is strange that he decided to touch the runway after 5000ft or so. PIA needs to make public the full cockpit voice recorder for the last half an hour.

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## Raj-Hindustani

*Why Pilot ignored 3 warnings from Air Traffic Control?*

PIA plane crash: Pilot ignored 3 warnings from Air Traffic Control to lower altitude
https://www.geo.tv/latest/289719-pi...gs-from-air-traffic-control-to-lower-altitude


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## Blacklight

Knuckles said:


> The marks are too close for the engines positioned on the aircraft


So brother what are these marks made by then?

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## Maarkhoor

@Aspen

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## litman

it seems the experienced pilots become over confident and breech SOPs which sometimes end up in a disaster. so far it seems that the pilot with 17000 hours of flying experience get overconfident during the landing. the last F-16 crash of the PAF was also a pilot error. the pilot was a highly experienced and decorated and he executed the maneuvre at a low altitude and then couldnt recover the jet. it seems the current lot of "experienced" pilots in aviation in pakistan need a huge stick and they need to be disciplined.

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## aakalim

I know this is going to be controversial, but it should be investigated if the pilot was fasting and did it have an impact on his decision making skills. In my opinion, the pilots should never fast on days they are flying.

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## HAIDER

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The reason the control tower was not involved was because of the height and speed of the aircraft the ATC had not handed the aircraft over to the ground control tower---.
> 
> The landing gear did not come down was because the speed was above 250 knots where landing gear wuld not deploy---.
> 
> The not deployed landing gear chimes were on warning the pilot that the gear is not down---.
> 
> The question is what was the hurry to the pilot to descend so fast and land rather than going around and coming back---.
> 
> This is the crucial question---we understand that the Pilot was " hot dogging " the aircraft---but why and what caused him not to heed the warning of the air controller to go around---.
> 
> The other thin is---there were no other flights in the skies---no flights backing up---no worries of delays or late departure---what was the reason the pilot decided to land the first time---?



*Pakistan airliner crash survivor says pilot warned of 'troublesome' landing seconds before crash*
_Moments before the Pakistan International Airlines flight crashed into a crowded neighbourhood near Karachi's international airport, surviving passenger Mohammad Zubair says the pilot warned over the intercom that the landing would be "troublesome"._

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## MastanKhan

aakalim said:


> I know this is going to be controversial, but it should be investigated if the pilot was fasting and did it have an impact on his decision making skills. In my opinion, the pilots should never fast on days they are flying.



Hi,

They should never fast---but they still do---. Like the Air Blue pilot---.

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## Tomcats

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1264926206782210048

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## Aspen

Issam said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1264926206782210048



They went from 10,000 feet to ground in 4 minutes

8,000 feet to 2,000 feet in 1 minute 30 seconds

PK8083 briefly had descent rate of about 6,000 feet per minute to 7,000 feet per minute. For some perspective, NASA space shuttle has descent rate of 10,000 feet per minute when returning from space. So PIA had descent rate closer to a Space Shuttle landing than a plane


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## Bil

With time more and more data coming to fore, which is point out that highly likely, its seems like pilot error.

So far we know that aircraft was at 10,000 ft in the air instead of 7,000 ft. This is where ATC issued its *first warning *to the pilot to lower the plane's altitude but he *ignored*.

Closer to the runway when it was supposed to be at 7,000 ft instead of 3,000 ft. ATC issues *2nd warning*, but like first time, *pilot ignored it again* (saying again that he was satisfied and would handle the situation, saying he was ready for landing).

Fuel wasn't an issue, so it could've continued to fly.

Furthermore, while approaching the runway from Malir, *designated 25L*, for the second attempt, the pilots also took a short distance of *1.5 nautical miles instead of the mandatory 7 nautical miles* defined for such a large-sized plane.

It all sounds to me pilot's error (but I could be wrong). Maybe he got over confident and didnt follow all the required steps to handle such large plane. Thats why they say that, there is no room for complacency. One wrong move and price is highly unimaginable, which everybody had to pay unfortunately.

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## sparten

Just want to point out that Boeing 737Max crashes were also initially blamed on "inexplicable" pilot errors. It was pressure from pilots' unions that made them take a second look.

When an ostensibly experienced pilot makes such a major error its always pertinent to look into whether something malfunctioned or the error was compounded by the poorly designed system.

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## MastanKhan

sparten said:


> Just want to point out that Boeing 737Max crashes were also initially blamed on "inexplicable" pilot errors. It was pressure from pilots' unions that made them take a second look.
> 
> When an ostensibly experienced pilot makes such a major error its always pertinent to look into whether something malfunctioned or the error was compounded by the poorly designed system.



hi.

this is not boeing Max. There was no accident of the boeing max with better trained american pilots on the.

circumstances are totally different.

there is no visible difference of accident info.

accident info was available at that time and initial info led to same conclusion in the end about the program.

accident info is available now and states the problems as they occured.


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## sparten

No, the Boeing data cames months later. Originally the LionAir flight was also attributed to "inexplicable" pilot error.

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## Aspen

This video is showing plane had landing gear down on 1st landing? Engines are still running and it is not stalling?


__
https://www.reddit.com/r/path%3D%252Fr%252Faircrashinvestigation%252Fcomments%252Fgory3v%252F

So they did have gear down correctly on 1st landing? This is turning out to be an even bigger mystery than I imagined.

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## YeBeWarned

Friend of my father, who's son was in the plane with his family was among the Victims , his father name is Zakariya .

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## Enigma SIG

Aspen said:


> This video is showing plane had landing gear down on 1st landing? Engines are still running and it is not stalling?
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/path%3D%252Fr%252Faircrashinvestigation%252Fcomments%252Fgory3v%252F
> 
> So they did have gear down correctly on 1st landing? This is turning out to be an even bigger mystery than I imagined.


They probably didn't as they did a manual gear down after they aborted the landing, can't be sure as there is no evidence "yet" indicating they did but seeing as the aircraft did come down with the gear down this whole episode is confusing at best.

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## Baghial

Thorough Pro said:


> @MK you are being too judgemental and rude, the whole story is not even out yet.
> 
> The situation will be a lot clearer if the last 15 minutes of communication between the pilot and ATC is released without any edits. what's released only gives half the picture and creates a lot of confusion[/QUOT
> 
> 
> our govt always release , information, which suits the govt, to protect, minipulate , alter and further confuse the awaam, (which every govt thinks are idiots,)..its surviving the storm doctrine,
> 
> i am still waiting to see APS school inuiry report...already 4 yrs?
> 
> no inquiry ordered either for ehasn ullah ehsan, escape? departure? vacation to turkey?
> 
> the list is long, painfull, n ugly........ coverups!


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## Ivan

I don`t have words to describe the horror, pain and sadness I am feeling right now after going through the comments. May Allah grant high ranks to these Shaheeds.

And I must praise the bravery of the pilot Captain Sajjad Gul. Everyone of us heard his voice and replies to the ATC. He was so composed and confident that he knew he had everything in control despite all the odds he was aware of. He did not let the passengers panic by letting them know what was happening. He didn`t want anyone to be scared of what was going to happen next. He truly saved so many hearts from sinking for themselves and for their dear ones. This brave person deserves a medal. Rest in peace Sir. Thank you for your service!

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## Raider 21

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The reason the control tower was not involved was because of the height and speed of the aircraft the ATC had not handed the aircraft over to the ground control tower---.
> 
> The landing gear did not come down was because the speed was above 250 knots where landing gear wuld not deploy---.
> 
> The not deployed landing gear chimes were on warning the pilot that the gear is not down---.
> 
> The question is what was the hurry to the pilot to descend so fast and land rather than going around and coming back---.
> 
> *This is the crucial question---we understand that the Pilot was " hot dogging " the aircraft---but why and what caused him not to heed the warning of the air controller to go around---.*
> 
> The other thin is---there were no other flights in the skies---no flights backing up---no worries of delays or late departure---what was the reason the pilot decided to land the first time---?


I'm afraid that might be it. If he were at landing speed with the gear up, no freaking way they would have been able to perform a go-around. His 1st approach is probably nuts, flying inches above the ground on the runway....and bounce it a few times before advancing N1 to TOGA.



User Missing said:


> I don`t have words to describe the horror, pain and sadness I am feeling right now after going through the comments. May Allah grant high ranks to these Shaheeds.
> 
> And I must praise the bravery of the pilot Captain Sajjad Gul. Everyone of us heard his voice and replies to the ATC. He was so composed and confident that he knew he had everything in control despite all the odds he was aware of. He did not let the passengers panic by letting them know what was happening. He didn`t want anyone to be scared of what was going to happen next. He truly saved so many hearts from sinking for themselves and for their dear ones. This brave person deserves a medal. Rest in peace Sir. Thank you for your service!


He may have been calm, which is prudent by his profession. But the aircrew messed up big time. No medal shall come if it is determined to be pilot error. As pointed out by pilots, he's no hero, yet tried to fix up his errors which unfortunately became mistakes. 

"An error does not become a mistake unless it is refused to be corrected" - JFK

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## Thorough Pro

It's looking more and more like a pilot error bringing it too hot and high, a docile/submissive "yes-sir" co-pilot not pro-actively monitoring the situation and calling for a go-around, a passive/submissive ATC not exercising his authority to decline clearance for landing while seeing the plane was too hot and high to safely land.

What's needed is a change in mind-set, the pilot might be experienced and senior but there is a reason why there are two pilots in the cockpit, if the second one has to stay quiet and go along with anything the main pilot does, then he is not doing his job and is not needed in the cockpit.

Maybe there is a need to review/modify the protocols for take-off and landing with co-pilot taking more assertive role. ATC's own the airspace and GC's own the runways, they need to be more authoritative and assertive and should be able to call shots, when they see that the conditions are not right for the planes to take-off or land safely.

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## Ivan

Knuckles said:


> I'm afraid that might be it. If he were at landing speed with the gear up, no freaking way they would have been able to perform a go-around. His 1st approach is probably nuts, flying inches above the ground on the runway....and bounce it a few times before advancing N1 to TOGA.
> 
> 
> He may have been calm, which is prudent by his profession. But the aircrew messed up big time. No medal shall come if it is determined to be pilot error. As pointed out by pilots, he's no hero, yet tried to fix up his errors which unfortunately became mistakes.
> 
> "An error does not become a mistake unless it is refused to be corrected" - JFK


Sir I just read a comment here stating short functional history of this AC according to which it had landing gear problem:

*"The aircraft in question (AP-BLD, msn 2274) experienced two safety-related incidents:

2018-09-04 bird-strike Faisalabad, radome damage

2017-09-05 hydraulic failure on appr. to Lahore, flightcrew had to lower the gear by alternate system

Source(s): JACDEC Database"*


Now this same AC had to take 3 rounds and try deploying landing gear, that finally succeeded as can be seen in CCTV footage before crash. 

My point is, it looks like the management was improvising with easyfix. Again, the management won`t let anyone point fingers at them. And interestingly it is again them who have to come up with a report about all this.


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## Asterisk

User Missing said:


> Sir I just read a comment here stating short functional history of this AC according to which it had landing gear problem:
> 
> *"The aircraft in question (AP-BLD, msn 2274) experienced two safety-related incidents:
> 
> 2018-09-04 bird-strike Faisalabad, radome damage
> 
> 2017-09-05 hydraulic failure on appr. to Lahore, flightcrew had to lower the gear by alternate system
> 
> Source(s): JACDEC Database"*
> 
> 
> Now this same AC had to take 3 rounds and try deploying landing gear, that finally succeeded as can be seen in CCTV footage before crash.
> 
> My point is, it looks like the management was improvising with easyfix. Again, the management won`t let anyone point fingers at them. And interestingly it is again them who have to come up with a report about all this.



Just because the AC had a landing gear issue in the past doesn't mean an easyfix was used or was the cause of this crash. It is a possibility, but several things don't add up.
A problem with landing gear would not make the flight crew ignore speed and altitude warnings, miss waypoints and attempt a high speed gear up landing without alerting ATC, continuing to land while an alarm buzzes in the cockpit etc. A landing gear failure absolutely doesn't make the flight crew do such things. 
If they could not lower the gear, there were many things that needed to be done for a belly landing like alerting the ATC so rescue teams could move near the runway,using up fuel to lower fire risk, approaching the runway with low speed and land the AC as level as possible.This was evidently not done.

In case of a landing gear failure, the AC is supposed to stay in air and troubleshoot the problem.
*The landing gear can be lowered by multiple methods:*
- LGCIU - Doesn't work if AC speed is greater than 260 kts, which it probably was.
- Landing gear gravity extension handle

The AC did not take 3 rounds trying to deploy landing gear. What the plane did 3 times as to scrape the engines on runway during/before the go around on its first high speed approach. The AC deployed landing gear on second approach with failing engines, which was a mistaken move.

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## MastanKhan

Knuckles said:


> I'm afraid that might be it. If he were at landing speed with the gear up, no freaking way they would have been able to perform a go-around. His 1st approach is probably nuts, flying inches above the ground on the runway....and bounce it a few times before advancing N1 to TOGA.
> 
> 
> He may have been calm, which is prudent by his profession. But the aircrew messed up big time. No medal shall come if it is determined to be pilot error. As pointed out by pilots, he's no hero, yet tried to fix up his errors which unfortunately became mistakes.
> 
> "An error does not become a mistake unless it is refused to be corrected" - JFK



Hi,

If I had a say---I would have put all the pilots going back to work after Covid Break thru a sort of simulation training---if simulator was not available then VERBAL simulator training to refresh them up for all aspects of flight and emergencies.

Just like the cricket news---says our fast bowlers need at least two months to be ready for test matches---.

I believe that Covic has played havoc with the mental conditioning of a lots of people---and the professionals and any one else going back to work or still working needs to be given some kind of basic general training kind of talk---.



User Missing said:


> Sir I just read a comment here stating short functional history of this AC according to which it had landing gear problem:
> 
> *"The aircraft in question (AP-BLD, msn 2274) experienced two safety-related incidents:
> 
> 2018-09-04 bird-strike Faisalabad, radome damage
> 
> 2017-09-05 hydraulic failure on appr. to Lahore, flightcrew had to lower the gear by alternate system
> 
> Source(s): JACDEC Database"*
> 
> 
> Now this same AC had to take 3 rounds and try deploying landing gear, that finally succeeded as can be seen in CCTV footage before crash.
> 
> My point is, it looks like the management was improvising with easyfix. Again, the management won`t let anyone point fingers at them. And interestingly it is again them who have to come up with a report about all this.



Hi,

Welcome to the forum---. The true disappointment here is that after reading your comments---seems like you have not heard anything that is being said for the last couple of days---. 

That is really really sad---.



Thorough Pro said:


> It's looking more and more like a pilot error bringing it too hot and high, a docile/submissive "yes-sir" co-pilot not pro-actively monitoring the situation and calling for a go-around, a passive/submissive ATC not exercising his authority to decline clearance for landing while seeing the plane was too hot and high to safely land.
> 
> What's needed is a change in mind-set, the pilot might be experienced and senior but there is a reason why there are two pilots in the cockpit, if the second one has to stay quiet and go along with anything the main pilot does, then he is not doing his job and is not needed in the cockpit.
> 
> Maybe there is a need to review/modify the protocols for take-off and landing with co-pilot taking more assertive role. ATC's own the airspace and GC's own the runways, they need to be more authoritative and assertive and should be able to call shots, when they see that the conditions are not right for the planes to take-off or land safely.



Hi,

Exactly my point---why does PIOA need a co-pilot---.

Might as well have an air hostess sitting in the co-pilots seat---.



sparten said:


> No, the Boeing data cames months later. Originally the LionAir flight was also attributed to "inexplicable" pilot error.



Hi,

Your comments are misleading---. The initial assessment by different analystrs stayed the same---either before or after the data---.

The 737 MAX had issues---had one sensor that created the issue---the second sensor was an option---. A long time ago---2 sensors of the same type were standard---then it became a money making issue and the second sensor became an option---.

The issue over here is not an out of control aircraft---the issue of here is why was the pilot out of control---. Why did the pilot negate the air traffic control every time the air traffic made a suggestion or made a comment to the pilot.

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## sparten

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Your comments are misleading---. The initial assessment by different analystrs stayed the same---either before or after the data---.
> 
> The 737 MAX had issues---had one sensor that created the issue---the second sensor was an option---. A long time ago---2 sensors of the same type were standard---then it became a money making issue and the second sensor became an option---.
> 
> The issue over here is not an out of control aircraft---the issue of here is why was the pilot out of control---. Why did the pilot negate the air traffic control every time the air traffic made a suggestion or made a comment to the pilot.


No. The 737Max did have issues. The official stance from Boeing was that any competent pilot should be able to recognize it and make the necessary adjustment. As it turned out, not only was it not easily recognizable, it was also not easily recoverable once it was recognized late. Boeing was busy blaming "Asian Aircrew".

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## Ivan

Enigma SIG said:


> They probably didn't as they did a manual gear down after they aborted the landing, can't be sure as there is no evidence "yet" indicating they did but seeing as the aircraft did come down with the gear down this whole episode is confusing at best.


I think there should be at least 1 camera along the runway to monitor such incidents in future.


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## Raider 21

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> If I had a say---I would have put all the pilots going back to work after Covid Break thru a sort of simulation training---if simulator was not available then VERBAL simulator training to refresh them up for all aspects of flight and emergencies.
> 
> Just like the cricket news---says our fast bowlers need at least two months to be ready for test matches---.
> 
> I believe that Covic has played havoc with the mental conditioning of a lots of people---and the professionals and any one else going back to work or still working needs to be given some kind of basic general training kind of talk---.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Welcome to the forum---. The true disappointment here is that after reading your comments---seems like you have not heard anything that is being said for the last couple of days---.
> 
> That is really really sad---.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Exactly my point---why does PIOA need a co-pilot---.
> 
> Might as well have an air hostess sitting in the co-pilots seat---.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Your comments are misleading---. The initial assessment by different analystrs stayed the same---either before or after the data---.
> 
> The 737 MAX had issues---had one sensor that created the issue---the second sensor was an option---. A long time ago---2 sensors of the same type were standard---then it became a money making issue and the second sensor became an option---.
> 
> The issue over here is not an out of control aircraft---the issue of here is why was the pilot out of control---. Why did the pilot negate the air traffic control every time the air traffic made a suggestion or made a comment to the pilot.


Pakistan does not have any A320 full flight simulators. They do courses abroad as usual to this day. With Covid impact I doubt anyone got recertified having not flown in 2 months or so. Still, their applied CRM paid the price.

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## Baghial

User Missing said:


> I think there should be at least 1 camera along the runway to monitor such incidents in future.




dont worry , there are many camera,s on runway, and around ......
if the govt feels , who to blame. then maybe they will release some video,s 

but for the moment ATC,, RELEASES JUST 90 SEC,OF AUDIO?

WHY NOT THE LAST 10/15 MINUTES?

I SUPPOSE , ALL THE BLAME WILL BE ON THE PILOT, WHO CANT DEFEND ANYMORE?

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## Ivan

Baghial said:


> dont worry , there are many camera,s on runway, and around ......
> if  the govt feels , who to blame. then maybe they will release some video,s
> 
> but for the moment ATC,, RELEASES JUST 90 SEC,OF AUDIO?
> 
> WHY NOT THE LAST 10/15 MINUTES?
> 
> I SUPPOSE , ALL THE BLAME WILL BE ON THE PILOT, WHO CANT DEFEND ANYMORE?


Sir that`s my point. Feeding selective information to the public can mould the story anyway they want to.


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## wgr2013

Last 4 aviation disasters including this one in Pakistan are now domestic flights. Need to check for lack of training


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## Ivan

The reason despite all the available data that is made public, pilots and experts are still puzzled with so many unanswered questions is because the bits of information that is shared is not adding up to a clear and complete picture. It is all about perception management.


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## Ivan

MastanKhan said:


> Welcome to the forum---. The true disappointment here is that after reading your comments---seems like you have not heard anything that is being said for the last couple of days---.
> 
> That is really really sad---.


Assalam-U-Alaikum Sir!
Thank you for welcoming me here. I am honored.
And my heartfelt apologies for my dissent and skepticism. But something tells me the pilot is not to be blamed.

Eid Mubarik Sir!


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## Raider 21

User Missing said:


> Assalam-U-Alaikum Sir!
> Thank you for welcoming me here. I am honored.
> And my heartfelt apologies for my dissent and skepticism. *But something tells me the pilot is not to be blamed.*
> 
> Eid Mubarik Sir!


Eid Mubarik to you too !!!

Why the pilot is not to be blamed or I'd say pointed out for their mistakes. It has a lot of pilot error written on it based on the public info. Has not been been fully investigated yet, not to mention chances are that they may not release findings to the Pakistani public as that would undermine the confidence of the already high status they have bestowed on fliers.

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## appliedfor

Some points still pending. We can't conclude yet its pilot error without them.

1. The CCTV video of runway. (It can show if landing gear was stuck and aircraft touches the ground)
2. The contol Tower conversation before first attempt. (currently only available on second attempt of landing and aircraft crashes)
3. Decoding the black box and check the conversation if there is any problem in landing gear..

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## Taimoor Khan

kris said:


> Mahashay, pehle me kya bola oh dekh ke reply karna.
> I saidin previous posts that such airports should be moved out far from civilian areas or create a no house zone with examples.....
> 
> Its better to keep your mouth shut when people think you are stupid rather than open your wisdom and prove it




Indian stinking turd, you had a itch to express your pearls of wisdom without even realising that most Indian airports are right bang in the middle of their population. Infact, most mega cities around the world have got same situation. London Heathrow is much worse








Its a fact of our daily lives that we have to live with. Why waste forum bandwidth with such garbage?


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## Ivan

Knuckles said:


> Eid Mubarik to you too !!!
> 
> Why the pilot is not to be blamed or I'd say pointed out for their mistakes. It has a lot of pilot error written on it based on the public info. Has not been been fully investigated yet, not to mention chances are that they may not release findings to the Pakistani public as that would undermine the confidence of the already high status they have bestowed on fliers.


Khair Mubarik Sir! Thank you very much! Much obliged.

Sir I respect your views and of all the pilots and seniors here. I agree, pilots must be called out for their mistakes. And I also fully agree that by the findings that have been made public so far, all point towards pilot error. But again since we don`t have the complete comms recording that you have said would perhaps never be shared, the selective audio clips could mean anything. And this has created a void that my inner voice is somehow filling with telling me the pilot is not responsible for what has happened.

Once again, I am no pilot neither any air crash investigator. I am a layman and completely accept my deficiencies in my judgement.

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## R Wing

Enigma SIG said:


> IMHO he shouldn't have taken off when he scraped the runway for so long. Should've taken his chances on the ground rather than in the air. Hindsight is 20/20 of course and judging is easy as long as we're not in the pilots seat.



This is not just hindsight --- after a potentially very damaging belly landing/scraping like that, you STAY DOWN.



Enigma SIG said:


> Usually pilots on jets have to re-certify every year in the US (someone correct me if i'm wrong, vaguely remember from Premier1Driver youtube video). I don't get how the pilot managed to put it down in the middle of the runway. He wasn't properly configured for landing is my opinion.



This has been pretty well established already. 

He was too high and too fast. The ATC tried to warn him thrice. 

Most A320 pilots on international forums feel that in the last 30-60s, he got so focused on fixing his botched approach (instead of abandoning it at 3'000 ft or so and doing a go around) that --- with limited situational awareness --- he totally forgot to lower the landing gear.



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The reason the control tower was not involved was because of the height and speed of the aircraft the ATC had not handed the aircraft over to the ground control tower---.
> 
> The landing gear did not come down was because the speed was above 250 knots where landing gear wuld not deploy---.
> 
> The not deployed landing gear chimes were on warning the pilot that the gear is not down---.
> 
> The question is what was the hurry to the pilot to descend so fast and land rather than going around and coming back---.
> 
> This is the crucial question---we understand that the Pilot was " hot dogging " the aircraft---but why and what caused him not to heed the warning of the air controller to go around---.
> 
> The other thin is---there were no other flights in the skies---no flights backing up---no worries of delays or late departure---what was the reason the pilot decided to land the first time---?



Likely any one, or a mix, of: 
-arrogance/pride related to landing skill
-cultural reasons (pilots being 'top dog'); fear of being ridiculed for botching the initial approach
-potential inquiries for the improper approach 
-etc

Absolutely insane.

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## Ivan

R Wing said:


> Most A320 pilots on international forums feel that in the last 30-60s, he got so focused on fixing his botched approach (instead of abandoning it at 3'000 ft or so and doing a go around) that --- with limited situational awareness --- he totally forgot to lower the landing gear.


Sir this sounds very convincing.


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## SABRE

R Wing said:


> Most A320 pilots on international forums feel that in the last 30-60s, he got so focused on fixing his botched approach (instead of abandoning it at 3'000 ft or so and doing a go around) that --- with limited situational awareness --- *he totally forgot to lower the landing gear*.



Doesn't A320's alert system warn the pilot that the landing gears are not lowered when landing?


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## Baghial

SABRE said:


> Doesn't A320's alert system warn the pilot that the landing gears are not lowered when landing?


*JETSTAR PILOTS FORGOT TO LOWER THE LANDING GEAR*
By
Steve CreedyDecember 10, 2019
S






A Jetstar A320.
The pilots of a Jetstar A320 forgot to lower the landing gear as they approached Ballina airport in northern New South Wales and were forced to conduct a go-around after they were alerted to the oversight by a master warning.

The aircraft operating a flight from Sydney in May, 2018, had already conducted one go-around after the captain decided its airspeed and altitude were higher than a normal approach profile.



The Australian Transport Safety Bureau found the flight crew did not follow the Jetstar standard procedures during the first go-around and this created distractions that contributed to the landing gear oversight.

In particular, the flaps remained at the Flaps 3 position during the visual circuit rather than the company standard of Flaps 1.

The first go-around was performed correctly by the first officer until the Jetstar A320 reached the circuit altitude of 1500ft.

_Watch the ATSB video reconstruction of the incident:_

Video Player
https://www.airlineratings.com/wp-content/uploads/uploads/ATSBweb.mp4?_=2
00:00
00:42
As the first officer leveled the aircraft, it accelerated quickly towards the Flaps 3 limit speed and the FO called for approach mode to be activated to reduce the plane’s target speed.

Worried about a potential flaps overspeed, where the airspeed exceeds safe limits for the flap setting, the FO retarded the thrust levers to idle and by doing so de-activated the auto-thrust system and its protections.



“With Flaps 3 still set and 10-degree nose-up pitch altitude, the aircraft performance deteriorated, requiring intervention by the captain,’’ the ATSB said.

Other distractions affecting the crew included the fact the first officer was expecting a left circuit instead of a non-standard right circuit and had not been briefed about the change.

Adding to this was the handover of flight duties to the captain, the need to correct the flight path and the fact the captain continued to fly the aircraft manually, adding to his workload.

The captain elected to remain at Flaps 3, which investigators described as permissible and safe but not Jetstar’s standard configuration for a visual circuit.

“The operator’s sequence of configuring the aircraft for landing required the landing gear to be selected DOWN prior to the selection of Flaps 3,’’ The ATSB report said.

“As the captain turned on to the final approach during the second approach, he scanned the flight instruments, observed Flaps 3 already set and instinctively commanded Flaps FULL, which was the normal sequence from Flaps 3.

“The FO selected Flaps FULL but then also turned his attention to monitoring the aircraft’s flight path.

“As such, neither of the flight crew were aware that the landing gear had not been selected DOWN.”

Investigators said that because the pilots flew the second circuit at 1500ft, the Electronic Centralised Aircraft Monitor (ECAM) had not reset on the second approach and it did not display a landing memo at 950ft.

“The absence of the landing memo should have prompted the flight crew to perform the items of the landing checklist as a ‘read-and-do’ checklist,’’ it said.

“Had they read the required actions from the checklist, both the captain and FO would have been required to independently check and announce that the landing gear was down.

“This method should have effectively ‘trapped’ their error.”

When the landing memo did appear at 800ft, the crew were focused on intercepting the final approach path and performing radio calls and neither recalled seeing it.

“Both the captain and FO were subsequently alerted to the incorrect configuration for landing by a master warning message triggered at about 700 ft,’’ the report said.

The flight crew conducted a second go-around and landed without incident.

ATSB transport safety director Dr Start Godley said the incident highlighted the importance of adhering to standard operating procedures and correctly monitoring the aircraft’s approach.

“In this case a number of factors, such as distraction and limited use of aircraft automation, combined to result in the landing gear not being selected to down,” Dr Godley said.

“While highly undesirable, it should be noted that the aircraft’s warning system effectively alerted the flight crew to the problem and the crew responded promptly to the warning and initiated a second go-around.”

Jetstar said that as a result of the incident, the pilots attended debriefings with operations management and underwent specific simulator and line flying training related to the event.

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## Motti

When will the full results of the investigation going to be published. I am curious about the sequence of events here.


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## MastanKhan

SABRE said:


> Doesn't A320's alert system warn the pilot that the landing gears are not lowered when landing?



Hi,

Yes it does---that what the chimes that you are hearing are for.

Normally there is one ding sound----.

Continuous chimes sound is multiple problems---some minor---others major issues---.

These don't get resolved while you are proceeding to land at 3500 feet elevation.

These you resolve by flying around the runway---resolving the warning sounds and then going for the landing---.

There is a prior conversation of the Pilot asking the traffic control at Lahore Airport as to why the runway lights were on when he was taking off---.



Knuckles said:


> Pakistan does not have any A320 full flight simulators. They do courses abroad as usual to this day. With Covid impact I doubt anyone got recertified having not flown in 2 months or so. Still, their applied CRM paid the price.



Hi,

By simulation training I meant like an office meeting where the boss thru every thing that needs to be done for the day for the week for the month---.

Like a welcome back to the job---and instead of having a simulator---it all becomes a kind of a VERBAL episode of a refresher course---.

I hope the Pilots have their own personal flight simulator type programs on the PC's---.


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## Raider 21

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Yes it does---that what the chimes that you are hearing are for.
> 
> Normally there is one ding sound----.
> 
> Continuous chimes sound is multiple problems---some minor---others major issues---.
> 
> These don't get resolved while you are proceeding to land at 3500 feet elevation.
> 
> These you resolve by flying around the runway---resolving the warning sounds and then going for the landing---.
> 
> There is a prior conversation of the Pilot asking the traffic control at Lahore Airport as to why the runway lights were on when he was taking off---.
> 
> 
> 
> *Hi,
> 
> By simulation training I meant like an office meeting where the boss thru every thing that needs to be done for the day for the week for the month---.
> 
> Like a welcome back to the job---and instead of having a simulator---it all becomes a kind of a VERBAL episode of a refresher course---.
> 
> I hope the Pilots have their own personal flight simulator type programs on the PC's--*-.


Sir I work in flight simulation, A320s are my main platforms. With all due respect, it does not work like that. Pilots need a sim check every few weeks to a month. A welcome back should include 2-3 days in the sims.

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## Ivan

*'No Eid in our home': Families mourn Karachi crash victims*

Reuters | Updated May 26, 2020






"When I saw the area, I realised that it would be a miracle if they had made it.." - Reuters

As Fazal Rahmaan, 80 and his wife, Wahida Rahmaan, 74, boarded a plane in the Pakistani city of Lahore on Friday, their family’s biggest fear was that they might get catch the coronavirus on their way to spend the holiday in Karachi.

Instead the couple, who had been married for 54 years, were among the 97 people killed when an Airbus A320, operated by Pakistan International Airlines, crashed into a Karachi neighbourhood — Pakistan’s worst air disaster since 2012.

“We held many calls deliberating with doctors and family ... Our biggest concern was that they made the trip safely,” said their son, Inam Ur Rahmaan, who instead of welcoming his parents for the Eidul Fitr holiday found himself picking through the wreckage of flight PK8303 praying for a miracle.

“I got in my car and followed the smoke and the ambulances,” said Rahmaan.

“When I saw the area, I realised that it would be a miracle if they had made it.”

There were two survivors from onboard the aircraft, while no fatalities were reported on the ground in the densely packed neighbourhood of multi-story homes abutting the eastern edge of Jinnah International Airport where the plane came down.

More than two dozen homes were damaged as the airliner roared in, leaving a tangle of severed electric cables and exposed rebar — a broken wing rested against the side of a home, an engine on the ground nearby.

The jet fuel set the wreckage ablaze, along with homes and vehicles, sending black smoke into the sky, a _Reuters_ witness said.

Crowds rushed to the site, relatives searching for loved ones, rescue workers and the curious. Scores of ambulances and fire-engines jammed the narrow, debris-cluttered streets.

One rescue worker told _Reuters_ two bodies were found with oxygen masks on. Many bodies pulled from the wreckage were charred beyond recognition.

The airline’s chief executive said on Friday the last message from the pilot indicated a technical problem. A team from Airbus is due to arrive on Monday to investigate, a PIA spokesman said.

“They’ll provide all possible assistance including decoding the black box,” the spokesman Khan, referring to the flight data recorder.

*Screams and fire*
Shahid Ahmed, 45, was at the airport waiting for his mother to arrive. When he reached the crash site he saw rescuers retrieving bodies and people taking selfies.

“There was no one responsible at the site, people were busy posing for pictures,” said a distraught Ahmed, who lost his mother, Dishad Begum, 75, who was also flying to Karachi for Eid.

After scouring the site and failing to find his mother, Ahmed went to look for her in hospitals.

There was no list of the dead or injured at any of the hospitals, it was all chaos and mismanagement,” said Ahmed, who sobbed as he recounted the ordeal.

“Searching for our mother’s body was a nightmare.”

One of the survivors, engineer Muhammad Zubair, told _Geo News_ the pilot came down to land, briefly touched down, then pulled up again.

He announced he was going to make to make a second try shortly before the plane crashed, Zubair said from hospital.

“I could hear screams from all directions. Kids and adults. All I could see was fire. I couldn’t see any people – just hear their screams,” he said.

Rahmaan said his family was still in shock.

“There’s no Eid in our home,” he said.

Rahmaan said he took some comfort from knowing his parents always wanted to be with each other.

“Whatever’s happened, whatever the reason behind it, they always wanted to be together. At the end, they were together.”


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## HAIDER

Fail to understand why members of Pakistan Pilot association should be part of investigation team. When all investigation will be done by Airbus team.

@MastanKhan @Imran Khan ..sir ji pilot ko lagta ha roza lag gaya ...or he repeatedly take wrong decision to hide his mistake...

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## Ivan

*Airbus experts visit PIA plane crash site in Karachi as probe opens

AP | Dawn.com Updated May 26, 2020




*
Airbus experts arrive at Karachi airport for the PIA plane crash probe. - Photo courtesy: Radio Pakistan

*Airbus experts on Tuesday initiated a probe into last week's plane crash that killed 97 people when a Pakistan International Airlines (PIA) Airbus A-320 went down in a crowded neighbourhood near Karachi airport.*

Initial reports suggest the jet crashed after an apparent engine failure.

Aviation authorities said on Tuesday they have shared their initial findings with the visiting 11-member team from the European plane maker.

The Airbus experts and engineers also visited the crash site of flight PK-8303, where they were given a briefing by officials of the Aircraft Accident Investigation Board, _Radio Pakistan_ reported.

Related: _Question mark over body constituted to probe PIA crash_

"We are providing all possible assistance to the technical experts of Airbus," said Abdul Hafeez, a spokesperson for PIA.

Only two people on board survived the crash, including Zafar Masood, a bank executive.

The flight took off from Lahore and crashed on Friday while trying to land at Jinnah International Airport.

The plane made failed attempts to land at the Karachi airport before the crash. Authorities found the plane's black box and have been guarding the crash site to facilitate the probe.

On the ground, 18 homes were damaged but no one was killed, mainly because the local residents were gathered at nearby mosques at the time, officials had said. Eight people on the ground were injured.

So far, authorities have handed over 41 bodies to their families, Hafeez said, adding that DNA tests were underway to identify the remains of the other victims.

The plane last received a government check last November. PIA's chief engineer signed a separate certificate on April 28, confirming all maintenance had been conducted. -Airbus has said the two-engine plane had logged 47,100 flight hours and 25,860 flights as of last Friday.

The crash took place days after the government allowed resumption of domestic flights ahead of Eidul Fitr. Many of the passengers aboard the flight were families returning home for the holiday.

Pakistan has been in a countrywide partial lockdown since mid-March because of the coronavirus, and when flights resumed last week, every other seat was left vacant to ensure social distancing.

*Question mark over probe body composition

Baqir Sajjad Syed Updated May 24, 2020




*
Firefighters spray water on the wreckage of a Pakistan International Airlines aircraft after it crashed at a residential area in Karachi on May 22 - AFP

*ISLAMABAD: Representatives of pilots’ association and aviation experts have expressed concern over the handling of the investigation into the jetliner (PK-8303) crash by the air force-dominated probe team appointed by the government.*

Pakistan Airlines’ Pilots Association (Palpa) Secretary Capt Imran Narejo, while talking to _Dawn_ over phone on Saturday, said the “investigation team was not balanced”, because it lacked the representation of commercial pilots. Commercial pilots better understood the accidents involving commercial jetliners, he explained.

The federal government appointed a four-member “investigation team” comprising three officials of the Aircraft Accident Investigation Board, two of whom are Air Force officers, and the fourth member has been co-opted from Pakistan Air Force’s safety board. There is no commercial pilot in the team, which has been asked to submit its findings “within the shortest possible time”.

Another Palpa official, who did not want to be named, said it was crucial for any incident investigation to include a “rated pilot” for the type of the aircraft involved in the accident.

Federal government has appointed a four-member investigation team

Another senior pilot, who has in the past held senior management positions in PIA, concurred with this view and said that the absence of a pilot with experience on that particular type of aircraft would always remain a handicap for the investigation.

The reservations over the composition of the probe team pertain to their experience, specific knowledge about the crashed jet, and to an extent conflict of interest as a serving Air Marshal from PAF is heading PIA whose internal workings and condition of fleet would also come under question during the investigations.

PIA Chief Executive Office Air Marshal Arshad Malik addressing a press conference on Friday emphasised that the passenger plane was flight worthy and crew was adequately trained.

The pilots and aviation experts believe that Palpa, representatives of international pilots’ bodies, and an experienced pilot should have been included in the team to dig out facts and arrive at the right conclusion.

“It’s about preventing such accidents from recurring, irrespective of who is ultimately held responsible,” Capt Narejo insisted.

*Events leading to crash*

PIA’s A-320-214 bearing tail number AP-BLD with 99 on board crashed in Karachi, while repeating an attempt to land. Ninety-seven of the passengers perished in the crash, while two miraculously survived.

The investigators would have to look at the crash from various angles including the physical and mental condition of the pilot, flight worthiness of the aircraft, the malfunctioning suffered during the approach to landing, and any other factor/s that could have contributed to the accident.

The aircraft, while making its first approach to landing was, as per the conversation between the pilot and air control tower, at a higher altitude than the normal. It was at 3,500 feet at five miles. When the pilot was alerted by the control tower about the high altitude, he said he was “comfortable” with it and was approaching runway 25L. The aircraft, pilots say, should have ideally been at 1,600 feet at that point.

The two questions, which arise here, are why the aircraft had a belated descend and whether it was the right decision of the pilot to commit to landing instead of going for an orbit despite the unusual altitude.

His colleagues believe that management’s pressure for “efficiency” could be one of the reasons for this decision of the pilot. He may be thinking of being questioned about doing the orbit by the flight operations directorate, his colleagues suspect.

Moreover, an alarm could be heard in the cockpit during pilot’s conversation with tower when the tower was giving him clearance to land.

The alarm, which was described by a senior pilot as “master warning” is related to configuration issues. Either the aircraft was at higher speed for the flap configuration at that time or his landing gear had malfunctioned. The alarm could also be due to a dual hydraulic failure or engine(s) catching fire.

It would be pertinent to know what caused that alarm and the pilot in the recorded conversations is not heard mentioning the malfunctioning at that point of time to the tower.

However, the pilot then chose to ‘go around’ and said he will come back for 25L. This (go-around) is a technical term for aborted landing and can be requested by either pilot or directed by the air tower because of issues in landing. The reason for going around has to be determined by the investigators and in greatly possibility was linked to the factor behind the alarm in the cockpit.

The tower then asked him to pull up to 3,000 feet and turn left heading 110. However, minutes later the tower told the pilot that he was dropping to 2,000 feet. In response the pilot took a brief sigh and said he was trying to maintain that altitude. Soon afterwards he reported loss of engine and said he was “proceeding direct” meaning that he was going for a crash landing.

The controller cleared the flight to land with both runways (25L and 25R) available. However, pilot could be heard giving distress signal “May Day, May Day, May Day”.

Picture of the aircraft at this position show that RAT air turbine had been deployed, which is an indication that both engines had shut down. The turbine, pilots say, provide for the continued functioning of flight controls in the event of hydraulic malfunctioning. However, the flight controls in such a condition are “partial and sluggish”, according to a pilot.

The investigators would have to see what caused both engines to stop working. It could be a bird hit or the pilot accidentally shutting off the wrong engine. It is rare for both engines to shut down simultaneously.

_Published in Dawn, May 24th, 2020_

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## RiazHaq

Multiple reports indicate there are deep engine scratch marks on the runway. Apparently, #PIA8303 A320 landing gear did not deploy and both engines failed in first attempt. Q: Should Capt Gul have completed belly landing in first attempt? #Pakistan #PIA https://www.riazhaq.com/2018/04/aviation-boom-in-india-and-pakistan.html


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## Raider 21

RiazHaq said:


> Multiple reports indicate there are deep engine scratch marks on the runway. Apparently, #PIA8303 A320 landing gear did not deploy and both engines failed in first attempt. Q: Should Capt Gul have completed belly landing in first attempt? #Pakistan #PIA https://www.riazhaq.com/2018/04/aviation-boom-in-india-and-pakistan.html


I believe so. Not sure how fast he must have been coming in on finals but has to have been quite higher than landing speed to bounce back after touching down on the runway a few times.


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## HAIDER

appliedfor said:


> Some points still pending. We can't conclude yet its pilot error without them.
> 
> 1. The CCTV video of runway. (It can show if landing gear was stuck and aircraft touches the ground)
> 2. The contol Tower conversation before first attempt. (currently only available on second attempt of landing and aircraft crashes)
> 3. Decoding the black box and check the conversation if there is any problem in landing gear..


Airbus will interview the last team of engineers who check and pass the plane. If you guys remember on first day of incidence , ARYNEWS run the news, that engineering department stop the plane 3 times for engine inspection...... why !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## BRAVO_

it is very easy to put the blame on dead..because they cannot defend.... investigation has been diverted toward pilot errors from day one and it was all started from the last few moments audio conversation released witin few hours of incident between ATC and pilot.
.team of investagtors are also questionable so...
PIA has a long track record of technical issues in past how many have been punished?
1 so investigation should be carried out through international investigators
2 who is responsible for first time landing gear problem?
3 if the landing gears were not in position why ATC did't informed it to pilot? and why allowed it to land?
frankely i am feeling this investigation has ended even before it started through intentionally creation of pilot error narrative


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## Baghial

BRAVO_ said:


> it is very easy to put the blame on dead..because they cannot defend.... investigation has been diverted toward pilot errors from day one and it was all started from the last few moments audio conversation released witin few hours of incident between ATC and pilot.
> .team of investagtors are also questionable so...
> PIA has a long track record of technical issues in past how many have been punished?
> 1 so investigation should be carried out through international investigators
> 2 who is responsible for first time landing gear problem?
> 3 if the landing gears were not in position why ATC did't informed it to pilot? and why allowed it to land?
> frankely i am feeling this investigation has ended even before it started through intentionally creation of pilot error narrative




same culprit in bhoja crash in rawalpindi- investigation ---------- THE PILOT


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## PakSword

BRAVO_ said:


> it is very easy to put the blame on dead..because they cannot defend.... investigation has been diverted toward pilot errors from day one and it was all started from the last few moments audio conversation released witin few hours of incident between ATC and pilot.
> .team of investagtors are also questionable so...
> PIA has a track long record of technical issues in past how many have been punished?
> 1 so investigation should be carried out through international investigators
> 2 who is responsible for first time landing gear problem?
> 3 if the landing gears were not in position why ATC did't informed it to pilot? and why allowed it to land?
> frankely i am feeling this investigation has ended even before it started through intentionally creation of pilot error narrative and


If the landing gear wasn't properly deployed then there should've been warnings in the cockpit. If there were warnings in the cockpit before first touch down, why wasn't emergency declared?

The passenger who has survived the crash didn't say that there was any emergency declared as such. He said that even the second time he thought everything was normal. 

This points to two possibilities:

1- The landing gear didn't deploy correctly due to a fault or 2- due to pilot error and the there wasn't any kind of alarm set off to notify the pilot that the landing gear wasn't deployed... hence no emergency landing announced the first time.


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## BRAVO_

PakSword said:


> If the landing gear wasn't properly deployed then there should've been warnings in the cockpit. If there were warnings in the cockpit before first touch down, why wasn't emergency declared?
> 
> The passenger who has survived the crash didn't say that there was any emergency declared as such. He said that even the second time he thought everything was normal.
> 
> This points to two possibilities:
> 
> 1- The landing gear didn't deploy correctly due to a fault or 2- due to pilot error and the there wasn't any kind of alarm set off to notify the pilot that the landing gear wasn't deployed... hence no emergency landing announced the first time.


this could be confirmed through blackbox recordings if no alarm ring at the time of first landing that would be due to technical issues and responsible would be engineering dept. and not the pilot and can somebody tell me what are CA standered SOPs under these cicumstanses ????


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## dexter

Sorry if this simulation is already posted.

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## PakSword

BRAVO_ said:


> this could be confirmed through blackbox recordings if no alarm ring at the time of first landing that would be due to technical issues and responsible would be engineering dept. and not the pilot and can somebody tell me what are CA standered SOPs under these cicumstanses ????


Yes, that's why I said that either the landing gear wasn't deployed and no alarm set off, or pilot forgot to deploy landing gear (and again no alarm set off)

In both the cases, it's understandable to not declare emergency. The youtube videos I have watched where the pilots go for belly landing knowingly, this is what the landing looks like from inside the cabin.. which the survived guy didn't mention. What I am amazed about is that even the second time the passengers were not notified to brace for impact and we see landing gear deployed in the final moments of the plane.






If you go through this video, there is a mention of over one hour of struggle and multiple rounds to deploy the failed landing gear and only after that the pilot decided to go for belly landing. Sadly, this wasn't witnessed in this case..


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## Thorough Pro

There was nothing wrong with the engine or the landing gear, the plane reached Karachi from Lahore without any incident. All the problems started after botched 1st attempted landing, hitting the runway, scrapping and damaging the engines. There were no mechanical problems, the only technical issue was with the pilot's approach and execution. 




BRAVO_ said:


> it is very easy to put the blame on dead..because they cannot defend.... investigation has been diverted toward pilot errors from day one and it was all started from the last few moments audio conversation released witin few hours of incident between ATC and pilot.
> .team of investagtors are also questionable so...
> PIA has a long track record of technical issues in past how many have been punished?
> 1 so investigation should be carried out through international investigators
> 2 who is responsible for first time landing gear problem?
> 3 if the landing gears were not in position why ATC did't informed it to pilot? and why allowed it to land?
> frankely i am feeling this investigation has ended even before it started through intentionally creation of pilot error narrative

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## maverick1977

most likely either the pilot landing check failed or the indicator showed landing gear green.. and when the hit hard on the runway thats why they lifted up again but the damage was already done..

the surviving person mentioned that there were screams and crying of folks when he gained conciiusness, unfortunately, most of the people incinerated or passed out due to smoke inhalation with 30 sec or less..


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## Safriz

The pilot didn't follow any SOP , but why?

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## Ivan

Safriz said:


> The pilot didn't follow any SOP , but why?


But Sir, if the Captain was not following the modus operandi, why didn`t the co-pilot tell him or correct him? Or perhaps the AC was on autopilot and they both were trying to catch some afternoon nap?


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## Safriz

User Missing said:


> But Sir, if the Captain was not following the modus operandi, why didn`t the co-pilot tell him or correct him? Or perhaps the AC was on autopilot and they both were trying to catch some afternoon nap?


These matters are looked at during the official investigation.
Also why the pilot was coming so hot and high.
Was there an equipment malfunction?
There are always many reasons of a plane crash, not just one.


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## JonAsad

I don't get it, i have seen ATC with binoculars that visually confirm the approaches.. why the ATC didn't tell the pilot that the gear is up?


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## Safriz

JonAsad said:


> I don't get it, i have seen ATC with binoculars that visually confirm the approaches.. why the ATC didn't tell the pilot that the gear is up?


That only happens on request. ATC has a lot to do , they can't sit with binoculars watching every plane and doing what they pilot should be doing.

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## Aspen

User Missing said:


> *Airbus experts visit PIA plane crash site in Karachi as probe opens
> 
> AP | Dawn.com Updated May 26, 2020
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Airbus experts arrive at Karachi airport for the PIA plane crash probe. - Photo courtesy: Radio Pakistan



These teenagers are Airbus experts?

WTF?

On different note:

1. PIA probably has nothing to do with this accident since it looks there was no technical fault
2. Airbus will come under a lot of fire now because they put critical gearbox on bottom of engine which is a huge single point of failure. Airplanes are supposed to have redundancies so this is a massive design flaw by Airbus. Boeing does not have this design flaw on their planes.
3. Pilot will probably be at fault for many reasons.

Biggest winner of this incident is PIA because they did not cause any technical fault like everybody assumed.

Biggest loser of this incident is Airbus because now everyone knows A320 has a massive design flaw which inherently makes it an unsafe plane in the wrong situation.

Pilot fucked up big time, but this incident could not have happened on a Boeing 737 because of a major Airbus A320 design flaw.

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## PanzerKiel

Aspen said:


> These teenagers are Airbus experts?
> 
> WTF?



Who knows dear .... Maybe just for the need, a random picture was found and published....no? 



PanzerKiel said:


> Who knows dear .... Maybe just for the need, a random picture was found and published....no?



Or like they say.... 
Age is no guarantee of efficiency, and youth is no guarantee of innovation.

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## Ivan

PanzerKiel said:


> Who knows dear .... Maybe just for the need, a random picture was found and published....no?


Sir, Dawn has captioned that photo with "photo courtesy: Radio Pakistan"

Also found this clip that contains the same group:

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## PanzerKiel

User Missing said:


> Sir, Dawn has captioned that photo with "photo courtesy: Radio Pakistan"
> 
> Also found this clip that contains the same group:



Yeah dear I noted that... 

Chalo bhai it is fine then.... Let's hope something good and constructive comes out of this investigation.



User Missing said:


> Sir, Dawn has captioned that photo with "photo courtesy: Radio Pakistan"
> 
> Also found this clip that contains the same group:



On a side note... 
RADIO Pakistan.... Why a radio channel should be taking pictures?

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## Ivan

PanzerKiel said:


> Let's hope something good and constructive comes out of this investigation.


G Sir, InshAllah!




PanzerKiel said:


> On a side note...
> RADIO Pakistan.... Why a radio channel should be taking pictures?


Sir they are maintaining a website that also contains pictures. Perhaps this is an upgradation. 
I have worked with a deptt. of similar nature, that is primarily concerned with giving coverage to govt. through direct (self) and private newspapers including state owned PTV, and keeping check on newspapers for perception management or filtering out content that could tarnish the image of govt. Not to forget mentioning they also operate their own radio stations. To cut to the chase, with the arrival of cameras, such deptts. have also revolutionized their reporting. They are issued cameras that are directly connected to internet and as soon as a picture is taken, it is sent forward to the desired person. So I believe Radio Pakistan started publishing photos so as to give a more concrete look than the imaginary we try to create when we hear news over a radio. Then there are venues where only the officials of such deptts. are allowed. So in that case, the officials are the only source to relay information to journalists or representatives of newspapers that are not there on the occasion. Generally, we used to cover events, take photos and then disseminate it to as many dailies as possible. Our main aim was to highlight the event regardless of the fact that journalists would usually write their own names with our written press releases. Perhaps Radio Pakistan is doing the same thing. Even though this was an airport and not a sensitive installation, but again the CAA would have requested media coverage from Radio Pakistan for the arrival of the investigation team. And Radio Pakistan who would have called reporters of their choice and also forwarded pictures to newspapers that maybe wanted to publish it.

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## PanzerKiel

User Missing said:


> G Sir, InshAllah!
> 
> 
> 
> Sir they are maintaining a website that also contains pictures. Perhaps this is an upgradation.
> I have worked with a deptt. of similar nature, that is primarily concerned with giving coverage to govt. through direct (self) and private newspapers including state owned PTV, and keeping check on newspapers for perception management or filtering out content that could tarnish the image of govt. Not to forget mentioning they also operate their own radio stations. To cut to the chase, with the arrival of cameras, such deptts. have also revolutionized their reporting. They are issued cameras that are directly connected to internet and as soon as a picture is taken, it is sent forward to the desired person. So I believe Radio Pakistan started publishing photos so as to give a more concrete look than the imaginary we try to create when we hear news over a radio. Then there are venues where only the officials of such deptts. are allowed. So in that case, the officials are the only source to relay information to journalists or representatives of newspapers that are not there on the occasion. Generally, we used to cover events, take photos and then disseminate it to as many dailies as possible. Our main aim was to highlight the event regardless of the fact that journalists would usually write their own names with our written press releases. Perhaps Radio Pakistan is doing the same thing. Even though this was an airport and not a sensitive installation, but again the CAA would have requested media coverage from Radio Pakistan for the arrival of the investigation team. And Radio Pakistan who would have called reporters of their choice and also forwarded pictures to newspapers that maybe wanted to publish it.



Bhai thanks alot for your detailed post along with your first hand experience.

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## Ivan

PanzerKiel said:


> Bhai thanks alot for your detailed post along with your first hand experience.


Sir it was pleasure I could add to the discussion. And my sincere apologies for the lengthy reply.

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## MastanKhan

Knuckles said:


> Sir I work in flight simulation, A320s are my main platforms. With all due respect, it does not work like that. Pilots need a sim check every few weeks to a month. A welcome back should include 2-3 days in the sims.



Hi,

I clearly understand what you are saying---but a clear verbal shakeup from the neckup always works wonders---.

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## Nilgiri



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## HAIDER

PakSword said:


> Yes, that's why I said that either the landing gear wasn't deployed and no alarm set off, or pilot forgot to deploy landing gear (and again no alarm set off)
> 
> In both the cases, it's understandable to not declare emergency. The youtube videos I have watched where the pilots go for belly landing knowingly, this is what the landing looks like from inside the cabin.. which the survived guy didn't mention. What I am amazed about is that even the second time the passengers were not notified to brace for impact and we see landing gear deployed in the final moments of the plane.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you go through this video, there is a mention of over one hour of struggle and multiple rounds to deploy the failed landing gear and only after that the pilot decided to go for belly landing. Sadly, this wasn't witnessed in this case..


In Pakistan case, it seems pilot negligence. .... lowering landing gear issue is not first time in PIA history .. our pilots did many times, how extreme lack of professionalism.

Discussion link
https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/632693-pia-a320-crash-karachi-16.html

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## R Wing

SABRE said:


> Doesn't A320's alert system warn the pilot that the landing gears are not lowered when landing?



Most intl experts felt that, because the brain has a finite attn span, the pilot became so involved with fixing the botched (too high/too fast) approach that his situation awareness (SA) was severely hampered in the last few minutes --- therefore his brain didn't register the warnings/alerts. This has happened before too.

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## Fawadqasim1

Safriz said:


> These matters are looked at during the official investigation.
> Also why the pilot was coming so hot and high.
> Was there an equipment malfunction?
> There are always many reasons of a plane crash, not just one.


an equipment malfunction.
Is a possibility which I am contemplating
From day one and for some reason no one
seems to be giving it a thought?
Either the pilot was out of his mind
Or
He relied on a faulty data provided to him
by the aircraft. And not the ATC.
I have a commercial pilot license which I got in early 90s I have almost forgotten everything but I wouldn't have made such a mistake on that day that's why it's so hard for me to stomach such a monumental
error by such a seasoned pilot though it's possible we are human beings we can
lose our minds seldom but it's possible.

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## Asterisk

PIA8303 had a descent of over 7000 ft/min on Friday
Altitude graph:





*Source: Aviation Safety Network 
https://aviation-safety.net/photo/10639/Airbus-A320-214-AP-BLD

More 5500+ ft/min descents of PIA at Karachi airport in May 2020:
*
*May 17*- The very same Aircraft, PIA 8303 . 30,574 ft to 13,575 ft in 3 min . Descent rate of 5633 ft/min.
*https://flightaware.com/live/flight/PIA8303/history/20200517/0754Z/OPLA/OPKC/tracklog

May 21*- PIA 8309 - 16725 to 11150 ft in 1 min. 5500 ft/min descent.
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/PIA8309/history/20200521/0740Z/OPIS/OPKC/tracklog

Since the crash, the descent rates are more stable at a consistent sub 2500 ft/min.
This goes well beyond a one time pilot error.
Given these past approaches of PIA flights , the PIA 8303 crash being pilot error just shifts the responsibility form the PIA maintenance department to the PIA Human Resource department.
PIA has the responsibility to train their flight crews, monitor their performance and to enforce standards.

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## R Wing

BRAVO_ said:


> it is very easy to put the blame on dead..because they cannot defend.... investigation has been diverted toward pilot errors from day one and it was all started from the last few moments audio conversation released witin few hours of incident between ATC and pilot.
> .team of investagtors are also questionable so...
> PIA has a long track record of technical issues in past how many have been punished?
> 1 so investigation should be carried out through international investigators
> 2 who is responsible for first time landing gear problem?
> 3 if the landing gears were not in position why ATC did't informed it to pilot? and why allowed it to land?
> frankely i am feeling this investigation has ended even before it started through intentionally creation of pilot error narrative



The local pilots body has said that they will not accept a biased probe.

Not much can be hidden given that all comms are recorded (in the tower and in the blackbox; pls keep in mind that the leaked audio is just small snippets) and there are survivors who can shed more light on the sequence of events. Finally, there will be airport CCTV footage.

All international observers believe it is pilot error for the following reasons:
-too high/too fast for the initial approach; warned thrice by ATC (this has been confirmed by altitude readings)

-forgot to lower the landing gear (if the landing wasn't lowering due to a technical glitch, obviously the pilot would/should have informed the tower that he was going to go for a belly/crash landing --- in which case there is a special foam and other arrangements made on the runway by the ground staff)

-went for a go-around despite scraping engines multiple times on the runway (confirmed by survivor, pictorial evidence of the plane and runway markings.)

This does _*not*_ mean that the ATC also didn't fail in some of its responsibilities and everybody who was found to have been lacking in the dispensing of their duties should be punished --- but the primarily responsibility for the plane and its safety in situations like this (where no other air traffic is involved and all on-the-ground conditions are clear ofr the pilot) rests with the Captain of the aircraft.

Peace.



Fawadqasim1 said:


> an equipment malfunction.
> Is a possibility which I am contemplating
> From day one and for some reason no one
> seems to be giving it a thought?
> Either the pilot was out of his mind
> Or
> He relied on a faulty data provided to him
> by the aircraft. And not the ATC.
> I have a commercial pilot license which I got in early 90s I have almost forgotten everything but I wouldn't have made such a mistake on that day that's why it's so hard for me to stomach such a monumental
> error by such a seasoned pilot though it's possible we are human beings we can
> lose our minds seldom but it's possible.



Almost all crashes are due to highly unlikely events --- therefore, however unlikely it is, it is still a possibility that the pilot --- whose situation awareness (SA) was totally consumed by fixing the botched approach (too high/too fast) forgot to lower the landing gear. After all, however remote the possibility, this has happened in the past.



Asterisk said:


> PIA8303 had a descent of over 7000 ft/min on Friday
> Altitude graph:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Source: Aviation Safety Network
> https://aviation-safety.net/photo/10639/Airbus-A320-214-AP-BLD
> 
> More 5500+ ft/min descents of PIA at Karachi airport in May 2020:
> *
> *May 17*- The very same Aircraft, PIA 8303 . 30,574 ft to 13,575 ft in 3 min . Descent rate of 5633 ft/min.
> *https://flightaware.com/live/flight/PIA8303/history/20200517/0754Z/OPLA/OPKC/tracklog
> 
> May 21*- PIA 8309 - 16725 to 11150 ft in 1 min. 5500 ft/min descent.
> https://flightaware.com/live/flight/PIA8309/history/20200521/0740Z/OPIS/OPKC/tracklog
> 
> Since the crash, the descent rates are more stable at a consistent sub 2500 ft/min.
> This goes well beyond a one time pilot error.
> Given these past approaches of PIA flights , the PIA 8303 crash being pilot error just shifts the responsibility form the PIA maintenance department to the PIA Human Resource department.
> PIA has the responsibility to train their flight crews, monitor their performance and to enforce standards.



Exactly --- even pilot error comes back directly to the management.

My father's friend failed this pilot THRICE in his evaluations --- but somehow he eventually passed and started flying.



Thorough Pro said:


> It's looking more and more like a pilot error bringing it too hot and high, a docile/submissive "yes-sir" co-pilot not pro-actively monitoring the situation and calling for a go-around, a passive/submissive ATC not exercising his authority to decline clearance for landing while seeing the plane was too hot and high to safely land.
> 
> What's needed is a change in mind-set, the pilot might be experienced and senior but there is a reason why there are two pilots in the cockpit, if the second one has to stay quiet and go along with anything the main pilot does, then he is not doing his job and is not needed in the cockpit.
> 
> Maybe there is a need to review/modify the protocols for take-off and landing with co-pilot taking more assertive role. ATC's own the airspace and GC's own the runways, they need to be more authoritative and assertive and should be able to call shots, when they see that the conditions are not right for the planes to take-off or land safely.



The cultural aspect is HUGE. In the past, a Korean Air flight was doomed similarly because certain cultural/respect-based elements prohibited the ATC and/or the co-pilot (I'm forgetting which) from properly identifying the situation as a proper emergency. 

Moreover, pilots often feel embarrassed if they mess up the first approach and have to initiate a go-around (and may even be reviewed for the hot approach) --- so there is even more unsaid 'pressure' on the pilot to try and force a landing the first time. It's ridiculous.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Fawadqasim1

R Wing said:


> The local pilots body has said that they will not accept a biased probe.
> 
> Not much can be hidden given that all comms are recorded (in the tower and in the blackbox; pls keep in mind that the leaked audio is just small snippets) and there are survivors who can shed more light on the sequence of events. Finally, there will be airport CCTV footage.
> 
> All international observers believe it is pilot error for the following reasons:
> -too high/too fast for the initial approach; warned thrice by ATC (this has been confirmed by altitude readings)
> 
> -forgot to lower the landing gear (if the landing wasn't lowering due to a technical glitch, obviously the pilot would/should have informed the tower that he was going to go for a belly/crash landing --- in which case there is a special foam and other arrangements made on the runway by the ground staff)
> 
> -went for a go-around despite scraping engines multiple times on the runway (confirmed by survivor, pictorial evidence of the plane and runway markings.)
> 
> This does _*not*_ mean that the ATC failed in some of its responsibilities and everybody who was found to have been lacking in the dispensing of their duties should be punished --- but the primarily responsibility for the plane and its safety in situations like this (where no other air traffic is involved and all on-the-ground conditions are clear ofr the pilot) rests with the Captain of the aircraft.
> 
> Peace.
> 
> 
> 
> Almost all crashes are due to highly unlikely events --- therefore, however unlikely it is, it is still a possibility that the pilot --- whose situation awareness (SA) was totally consumed by fixing the botched approach (too high/too fast) forgot to lower the landing gear. After all, however remote the possibility, this has happened in the past.
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly --- even pilot error comes back directly to the management.
> 
> My father's friend failed this pilot THRICE in his evaluations --- but somehow he eventually passed and started flying.


 The question is did he botch that approach
due to his confused mindset or due to relying on a faulty data set ? A "proper" analysis of the flight data recorder may shed some light on this question.

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## R Wing

Fawadqasim1 said:


> The question is did he botch that approach
> due to his confused mindset or due to relying on a faulty data set ? A "proper" analysis of the flight data recorder may shed some light on this question.



Totally get what you're saying --- though it seems unlikely that his altimeter, airspeed meter and his landing gear indicator all were faulty (provided that the plane just flew to Muscat and back the day before the crash.)

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## Enigma SIG

Asterisk said:


> PIA8303 had a descent of over 7000 ft/min on Friday
> Altitude graph:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Source: Aviation Safety Network
> https://aviation-safety.net/photo/10639/Airbus-A320-214-AP-BLD
> 
> More 5500+ ft/min descents of PIA at Karachi airport in May 2020:
> *
> *May 17*- The very same Aircraft, PIA 8303 . 30,574 ft to 13,575 ft in 3 min . Descent rate of 5633 ft/min.
> *https://flightaware.com/live/flight/PIA8303/history/20200517/0754Z/OPLA/OPKC/tracklog
> 
> May 21*- PIA 8309 - 16725 to 11150 ft in 1 min. 5500 ft/min descent.
> https://flightaware.com/live/flight/PIA8309/history/20200521/0740Z/OPIS/OPKC/tracklog
> 
> Since the crash, the descent rates are more stable at a consistent sub 2500 ft/min.
> This goes well beyond a one time pilot error.
> Given these past approaches of PIA flights , the PIA 8303 crash being pilot error just shifts the responsibility form the PIA maintenance department to the PIA Human Resource department.
> PIA has the responsibility to train their flight crews, monitor their performance and to enforce standards.


I'm wondering if the decision to fly at a higher altitude has to do with reducing costs? If it is; this would be on the management.


----------



## maverick1977

Enigma SIG said:


> I'm wondering if the decision to fly at a higher altitude has to do with reducing costs? If it is; this would be on the management.



fuel costs are low, as you burn less fuel and gain higher speeds


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## Fawadqasim1

Fawadqasim1 said:


> The question is did he botch that approach
> due to his confused mindset or due to relying on a faulty data set ? A "proper" analysis of the flight data recorder may shed some light on this question.


did they find the flight data recorder?
Do they have it now? is it shipshape? are they analysing it as we speak?


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## PakSword

Asterisk said:


> PIA8303 had a descent of over 7000 ft/min on Friday
> Altitude graph:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Source: Aviation Safety Network
> https://aviation-safety.net/photo/10639/Airbus-A320-214-AP-BLD
> 
> More 5500+ ft/min descents of PIA at Karachi airport in May 2020:
> *
> *May 17*- The very same Aircraft, PIA 8303 . 30,574 ft to 13,575 ft in 3 min . Descent rate of 5633 ft/min.
> *https://flightaware.com/live/flight/PIA8303/history/20200517/0754Z/OPLA/OPKC/tracklog
> 
> May 21*- PIA 8309 - 16725 to 11150 ft in 1 min. 5500 ft/min descent.
> https://flightaware.com/live/flight/PIA8309/history/20200521/0740Z/OPIS/OPKC/tracklog
> 
> Since the crash, the descent rates are more stable at a consistent sub 2500 ft/min.
> This goes well beyond a one time pilot error.
> Given these past approaches of PIA flights , the PIA 8303 crash being pilot error just shifts the responsibility form the PIA maintenance department to the PIA Human Resource department.
> PIA has the responsibility to train their flight crews, monitor their performance and to enforce standards.




Why would they do it like that? Is it related to fuel consumption somehow?


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## Fawadqasim1

it's man vs machine was it the deceased captain or was it the flight data computer. I think you people have made your mind but as a well trained and practiced lawyer I haven't .so


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## ejaz007

*Plane crash probe: PIA admin, pilots faceoff*

Plane crash probe: PIA admin, pilots faceoff

KARACGHI: The pilot of the ill-fated Pakistan International Airlines (PIA) plane that crashed on Friday ignored warnings from air traffic control about the plane’s height and speed as the aircraft approached for landing, said a report from air traffic control. However, the pilots’ organisation had shown its anger over leaking the details and said that it is a conspiracy to divert the direction of the probe into the plane crash incident.

The PIA plane, with 99 people on board, crashed in Model Colony near Jinnah International Airport on Friday. Ninety-seven people have been confirmed dead, while two survived the crash miraculously.

The on-duty air traffic controller and the approach tower controller told the Air Investigation Board (AIB) in a written reply on Tuesday that the pilot of PK-8303 ignored the repeated instructions.

According to the air traffic control, the flight left the Lahore airport at 01 05 pm and was scheduled to land at the Jinnah International Airport in Karachi at 2 30pm.

“The plane had enough fuel in it to fly for two hours and 34 minutes while its total flying time was recorded at one hour and 33 minutes,” the report said. “At 2 30pm, the plane was 15 nautical miles from Karachi at Makli flying at an altitude of 10,000 feet above the ground instead of 7,000 when air traffic control issued its first warning to the pilot to lower the plane's altitude.”

Instead of lowering the plane's altitude, the pilot responded by saying that he was satisfied. “When only 10 nautical miles were left till the Karachi airport the plane was at an altitude of 7,000 feet instead of 3 000 feet,” the report said.

The report states that air traffic control issued a second warning to the pilot to lower the plane's altitude. However, the pilot responded again by stating that he was satisfied and would handle the situation saying he was ready for landing.

The ATC further said that the captain landed the plane for the first time without opening the landing gear. On the first landing, both engines collided with the runway and rubbed against it three times and caused sparking before the captain pulled the plane back up and asked for permission to land again.

Three long marks have been observed and recorded by the CAA s experts on the runway. However, Pakistan Airline Pilots Association (Palpa) protested over leaking the details and said that it was aimed at diverting the probe into an incident.

“The administration seems no more interested in conducting a thorough probe into the incident,” the Palpa said. “They wanted to save the real characters behind the incident.” The association said that the pilots also have questions to be asked from the air traffic control officials.

The Palpa leaders expressed their concern as to why a long route was designated for the ill-fated plane. “The air traffic control officials are trying to portray a wrong picture by merging details of first and second landing attempts from the plane,” the association said.

The pilots’ body demanded the authorities to fulfill the promise they committed with the father of martyred PIA Pilot Sajjad Gul regarding not leaking inquiry reports into the matter.

Major progress has been made in the investigation into the PIA plane crash incident as ATC and approach tower controllers submitted their written responses before the aircraft accident and investigation, it has learnT.

Meanwhile, aviation authorities said Tuesday they have shared their initial findings with the visiting 11-member team from the European plane maker.

The Airbus experts and engineers are also to visit the crash site, according to Abdul Hafeez, a spokesman for PIA. “We are providing all possible assistance to the technical experts of Airbus,” he said.

The plane made failed attempts to land at the Karachi airport before the crash. Authorities found the plane’s black box and have been guarding the crash site to facilitate the probe. The plane last received a government check last November. PIA’s chief engineer signed a separate certificate on April 28, confirming all maintenance had been conducted. Airbus has said the two-engine plane had logged 47,100 flight hours and 25,860 flights as of last Friday.

Meanwhile, rejecting the present probe body, the Sindh government has demanded constitution of a new committee to investigate the PIA plane crash incident in Karachi comprising representatives of PALPA, foreign aviators, international civil aviation experts and Airbus officials.

The demand to this effect was made by Sindh Information Minister Syed Nasir Hussain Shah, Education Minister Saeed Ghani and Energy Minister Imtiaz Shaikh while addressing a joint press conference here on Tuesday. Speaking on the occasion, Sindh Education and Labour Minister Saeed Ghani said that they had serious reservations about the committee constituted by the federal government to investigate the plane crash incident.

He demanded that incumbent chiefs of PIA and the Civil Aviation Authority should be suspended on immediate basis so that both the authorities could not influence the ongoing probe process.

He held the chiefs of PIA and CAA responsible for the plane crash incident as an open and transparent inquiry should be conducted to probe the incident. He said that the Sindh Building Control Authority and Cantonment authorities could also be involved in the probe process.

He said that officials who had been made part of the present probe committee had a direct link with the present PIA chief Arshad Malik. “Since the time this tragedy has occurred the chief of PIA Arshad Malik on one occasion said that bird hit was responsible for the plane crash incident on the other occasion he blamed the senior pilot for the air tragedy. What would be the purpose of this probe committee if he (the PIA chief) has already made up his mind,” he said.

To a question, he said that the chief executive officer of the PIA Arshad Malik had been attempting to hold the senior pilot of the fateful plane fully responsible for the air crash tragedy. He said that in the final moments before the crash voice of the captain exhibited no signs of nervousness in the recording of the communication between air traffic control and the plane.

He said that media had not been invited when the provincial authorities had gone to visit people affected by the plane crash incident. He said that the conduct of the Sindh government after the plane crash tragedy had been very responsible.

He said that Sindh government had offered to the family of the three women who had received burn injuries in the plane crash incident to get them treatment from any private hospital but they had expressed satisfaction over the treatment being provided to the injured ladies at the Burns Centre of Civil Hospital Karachi.

He said that Sindh cabinet members Syed Nasir Hussain Shah and Murtaza Wahab had met the injured women at the Burns Centre on the second day of Eidul Fitr.

Speaking on the occasion, Sindh Information and Local Government Minister Syed Nasir Hussain Shah said that the Sindh government’s own forensic laboratory of the international standard had been doing the analysis of the DNA samples obtained from the bodies of the plane crash victims. He said that they would start receiving results of the forensic analysis from the present night.

He said that unidentified bodies of all the leftover victims of the plane crash would be handed over to the bereaved families in next 10 days. He expressed gratitude to the area residents, volunteers of the various relief organizations, district administration, personnel of police, rangers, and army for conducting the emergency rescue operation in the immediate aftermath of the plane crash incident. He said that Sindh chief ministers and his cabinet members had immediately rushed to the site of the tragic incident after the crash incident

https://www.thenews.com.pk/print/663510-plane-crash-probe-pia-admin-pilots-faceoff


----------



## Fawadqasim1

ejaz007 said:


> *Plane crash probe: PIA admin, pilots faceoff*
> 
> Plane crash probe: PIA admin, pilots faceoff
> 
> KARACGHI: The pilot of the ill-fated Pakistan International Airlines (PIA) plane that crashed on Friday ignored warnings from air traffic control about the plane’s height and speed as the aircraft approached for landing, said a report from air traffic control. However, the pilots’ organisation had shown its anger over leaking the details and said that it is a conspiracy to divert the direction of the probe into the plane crash incident.
> 
> The PIA plane, with 99 people on board, crashed in Model Colony near Jinnah International Airport on Friday. Ninety-seven people have been confirmed dead, while two survived the crash miraculously.
> 
> The on-duty air traffic controller and the approach tower controller told the Air Investigation Board (AIB) in a written reply on Tuesday that the pilot of PK-8303 ignored the repeated instructions.
> 
> According to the air traffic control, the flight left the Lahore airport at 01 05 pm and was scheduled to land at the Jinnah International Airport in Karachi at 2 30pm.
> 
> “The plane had enough fuel in it to fly for two hours and 34 minutes while its total flying time was recorded at one hour and 33 minutes,” the report said. “At 2 30pm, the plane was 15 nautical miles from Karachi at Makli flying at an altitude of 10,000 feet above the ground instead of 7,000 when air traffic control issued its first warning to the pilot to lower the plane's altitude.”
> 
> Instead of lowering the plane's altitude, the pilot responded by saying that he was satisfied. “When only 10 nautical miles were left till the Karachi airport the plane was at an altitude of 7,000 feet instead of 3 000 feet,” the report said.
> 
> The report states that air traffic control issued a second warning to the pilot to lower the plane's altitude. However, the pilot responded again by stating that he was satisfied and would handle the situation saying he was ready for landing.
> 
> The ATC further said that the captain landed the plane for the first time without opening the landing gear. On the first landing, both engines collided with the runway and rubbed against it three times and caused sparking before the captain pulled the plane back up and asked for permission to land again.
> 
> Three long marks have been observed and recorded by the CAA s experts on the runway. However, Pakistan Airline Pilots Association (Palpa) protested over leaking the details and said that it was aimed at diverting the probe into an incident.
> 
> “The administration seems no more interested in conducting a thorough probe into the incident,” the Palpa said. “They wanted to save the real characters behind the incident.” The association said that the pilots also have questions to be asked from the air traffic control officials.
> 
> The Palpa leaders expressed their concern as to why a long route was designated for the ill-fated plane. “The air traffic control officials are trying to portray a wrong picture by merging details of first and second landing attempts from the plane,” the association said.
> 
> The pilots’ body demanded the authorities to fulfill the promise they committed with the father of martyred PIA Pilot Sajjad Gul regarding not leaking inquiry reports into the matter.
> 
> Major progress has been made in the investigation into the PIA plane crash incident as ATC and approach tower controllers submitted their written responses before the aircraft accident and investigation, it has learnT.
> 
> Meanwhile, aviation authorities said Tuesday they have shared their initial findings with the visiting 11-member team from the European plane maker.
> 
> The Airbus experts and engineers are also to visit the crash site, according to Abdul Hafeez, a spokesman for PIA. “We are providing all possible assistance to the technical experts of Airbus,” he said.
> 
> The plane made failed attempts to land at the Karachi airport before the crash. Authorities found the plane’s black box and have been guarding the crash site to facilitate the probe. The plane last received a government check last November. PIA’s chief engineer signed a separate certificate on April 28, confirming all maintenance had been conducted. Airbus has said the two-engine plane had logged 47,100 flight hours and 25,860 flights as of last Friday.
> 
> Meanwhile, rejecting the present probe body, the Sindh government has demanded constitution of a new committee to investigate the PIA plane crash incident in Karachi comprising representatives of PALPA, foreign aviators, international civil aviation experts and Airbus officials.
> 
> The demand to this effect was made by Sindh Information Minister Syed Nasir Hussain Shah, Education Minister Saeed Ghani and Energy Minister Imtiaz Shaikh while addressing a joint press conference here on Tuesday. Speaking on the occasion, Sindh Education and Labour Minister Saeed Ghani said that they had serious reservations about the committee constituted by the federal government to investigate the plane crash incident.
> 
> He demanded that incumbent chiefs of PIA and the Civil Aviation Authority should be suspended on immediate basis so that both the authorities could not influence the ongoing probe process.
> 
> He held the chiefs of PIA and CAA responsible for the plane crash incident as an open and transparent inquiry should be conducted to probe the incident. He said that the Sindh Building Control Authority and Cantonment authorities could also be involved in the probe process.
> 
> He said that officials who had been made part of the present probe committee had a direct link with the present PIA chief Arshad Malik. “Since the time this tragedy has occurred the chief of PIA Arshad Malik on one occasion said that bird hit was responsible for the plane crash incident on the other occasion he blamed the senior pilot for the air tragedy. What would be the purpose of this probe committee if he (the PIA chief) has already made up his mind,” he said.
> 
> To a question, he said that the chief executive officer of the PIA Arshad Malik had been attempting to hold the senior pilot of the fateful plane fully responsible for the air crash tragedy. He said that in the final moments before the crash voice of the captain exhibited no signs of nervousness in the recording of the communication between air traffic control and the plane.
> 
> He said that media had not been invited when the provincial authorities had gone to visit people affected by the plane crash incident. He said that the conduct of the Sindh government after the plane crash tragedy had been very responsible.
> 
> He said that Sindh government had offered to the family of the three women who had received burn injuries in the plane crash incident to get them treatment from any private hospital but they had expressed satisfaction over the treatment being provided to the injured ladies at the Burns Centre of Civil Hospital Karachi.
> 
> He said that Sindh cabinet members Syed Nasir Hussain Shah and Murtaza Wahab had met the injured women at the Burns Centre on the second day of Eidul Fitr.
> 
> Speaking on the occasion, Sindh Information and Local Government Minister Syed Nasir Hussain Shah said that the Sindh government’s own forensic laboratory of the international standard had been doing the analysis of the DNA samples obtained from the bodies of the plane crash victims. He said that they would start receiving results of the forensic analysis from the present night.
> 
> He said that unidentified bodies of all the leftover victims of the plane crash would be handed over to the bereaved families in next 10 days. He expressed gratitude to the area residents, volunteers of the various relief organizations, district administration, personnel of police, rangers, and army for conducting the emergency rescue operation in the immediate aftermath of the plane crash incident. He said that Sindh chief ministers and his cabinet members had immediately rushed to the site of the tragic incident after the crash incident
> 
> https://www.thenews.com.pk/print/663510-plane-crash-probe-pia-admin-pilots-faceoff





ejaz007 said:


> “The administration seems no more interested in conducting a thorough probe into the incident,” the Palpa said


That's exactly what I am afraid of


----------



## Asterisk

Fawadqasim1 said:


> did they find the flight data recorder?
> Do they have it now? is it shipshape? are they analysing it as we speak?



The CVR is still missing. The FDR was found but is still in Pakistan.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1265366151334449155


Fawadqasim1 said:


> it's man vs machine was it the deceased captain or was it the flight data computer. I think you people have made your mind but as a well trained and practiced lawyer I haven't .so


 
The flight crew dismissed ATC warnings and replied that they were comfortable with their altitude and speed , which were way above normal.
The same PK8303 had another bad approach days ago , on May 17.
After the crash, PIA flights to KHI airport have been doing proper approaches.
Sounds more bad practices.



Asterisk said:


> PIA8303 had a descent of over 7000 ft/min on Friday
> Altitude graph:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Source: Aviation Safety Network
> https://aviation-safety.net/photo/10639/Airbus-A320-214-AP-BLD
> 
> More 5500+ ft/min descents of PIA at Karachi airport in May 2020:
> *
> *May 17*- The very same Aircraft, PIA 8303 . 30,574 ft to 13,575 ft in 3 min . Descent rate of 5633 ft/min.
> *https://flightaware.com/live/flight/PIA8303/history/20200517/0754Z/OPLA/OPKC/tracklog
> 
> May 21*- PIA 8309 - 16725 to 11150 ft in 1 min. 5500 ft/min descent.
> https://flightaware.com/live/flight/PIA8309/history/20200521/0740Z/OPIS/OPKC/tracklog
> 
> Since the crash, the descent rates are more stable at a consistent sub 2500 ft/min.
> This goes well beyond a one time pilot error.
> Given these past approaches of PIA flights , the PIA 8303 crash being pilot error just shifts the responsibility form the PIA maintenance department to the PIA Human Resource department.
> PIA has the responsibility to train their flight crews, monitor their performance and to enforce standards.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Fawadqasim1

Asterisk said:


> The CVR is still missing. The FDR was found but is still in Pakistan.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1265366151334449155
> 
> 
> The flight crew dismissed ATC warnings and replied that they were comfortable with their altitude and speed , which were way above normal.
> The same PK8303 had another bad approach days ago , on May 17.
> After the crash, PIA flights to KHI airport have been doing proper approaches.
> Sounds more bad practices.


How can PIA survive with such daredevils flying their commercial flights the whole fleet should be grounded immediately


----------



## litman

Nilgiri said:


>


i have been watching his series and it seems so far that the those in cockpit thought they were flying a fighter jet that day rather then passenger jet.

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## Destranator

Asterisk said:


> PIA8303 had a descent of over 7000 ft/min on Friday
> Altitude graph:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Source: Aviation Safety Network
> https://aviation-safety.net/photo/10639/Airbus-A320-214-AP-BLD
> 
> More 5500+ ft/min descents of PIA at Karachi airport in May 2020:
> *
> *May 17*- The very same Aircraft, PIA 8303 . 30,574 ft to 13,575 ft in 3 min . Descent rate of 5633 ft/min.
> *https://flightaware.com/live/flight/PIA8303/history/20200517/0754Z/OPLA/OPKC/tracklog
> 
> May 21*- PIA 8309 - 16725 to 11150 ft in 1 min. 5500 ft/min descent.
> https://flightaware.com/live/flight/PIA8309/history/20200521/0740Z/OPIS/OPKC/tracklog
> 
> Since the crash, the descent rates are more stable at a consistent sub 2500 ft/min.
> This goes well beyond a one time pilot error.
> Given these past approaches of PIA flights , the PIA 8303 crash being pilot error just shifts the responsibility form the PIA maintenance department to the PIA Human Resource department.
> PIA has the responsibility to train their flight crews, monitor their performance and to enforce standards.



I think you or whoever managed to identify this trend has cracked the case. This is clearly a management issue and heads must roll from there.
The poor pilot is largely being blamed but in reality he had little wiggle room.

You can maintain high altitude throughout the flight path to save fuel and yet descend early and safely so the fuel economy argument makes little commercial sense. Having said that, I know for a fact that the Biman board of directors is packed with incompetent fools with zero experience in managing commercial airliners. If it is the same situation with PIA then God help us all.

@Bilal9 bhai what is your opinion on this?


----------



## HAIDER

Fawadqasim1 said:


> How can PIA survive with such daredevils flying their commercial flights the whole fleet should be grounded immediately


Don't worry, our pilots bring passenger on single engine.....recent case of Toronto flight, where only one engine was functional . Dissolve pilot association, all labor unions. Fire extra staff. Pilots need to pass some kind of knowledge and fitness exam every year. Otherwise such donkey kongs keep on flying planes and risking the life of passengers and giving bad name to national carrier.

Guys everyone must watch this movie and see how the system is tense for pilots. It is true story and all facts shown in the movie are true and correct.

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## Bil

HAIDER said:


> Don't worry, our pilots bring passenger on single engine.....*recent case of Toronto flight, where only one engine was functional* . Dissolve pilot association, all labor unions. Fire extra staff. Pilots need to pass some kind of knowledge and fitness exam every year. Otherwise such donkey kongs keep on flying planes and risking the life of passengers and giving bad name to national carrier.
> 
> Guys everyone must watch this movie and see how the system is tense for pilots.



Many thanks for this share, my family members fly frequently from Toronto to Pakistan (only because its a direct flight to save time). However, after this recent PIA incident and what you have shared, I dont feel comfortable at all having my people go on board with PIA.


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## VCheng

PakSword said:


> Why would they do it like that? Is it related to fuel consumption somehow?



(Please delete this comment if you find it unsuitable, with my apologies.)

May be trying to reduce risk from possible ground fire?

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-pakistan-violence-airplane/gunmen-fire-on-plane-at-pakistans-peshawar-airport


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## Enigma SIG

VCheng said:


> (Please delete this comment if you find it unsuitable, with my apologies.)
> 
> May be trying to reduce risk from possible ground fire?
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-pakistan-violence-airplane/gunmen-fire-on-plane-at-pakistans-peshawar-airport


This happened in Karachi, not Mogadishu.


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## HAIDER

Now late pilot father saying ...I don't trust in PIA panel investigation. It will be biased.


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## VCheng

Enigma SIG said:


> This happened in Karachi, not Mogadishu.



True, but I am just trying to think of any and all possibilities - no matter how unlikely - to explain such an approach by such an experienced pilot landing at a familiar airport. Apologies if anyone is offended.


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## Enigma SIG

VCheng said:


> True, but I am just trying to think of any and all possibilities - no matter how unlikely - to explain such an approach by such an experienced pilot landing at a familiar airport. Apologies if anyone is offended.


As stated by other members myself included it could possibly have to do with saving fuel, however minuscule (savings could be below 5%). With PIA recently in business restructuring phase it probably came from the management. If that is indeed the case and Airbus engineers conclude no issues with the aircraft itself; then management has to accept full responsibility.

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## PakSword

VCheng said:


> (Please delete this comment if you find it unsuitable, with my apologies.)
> 
> May be trying to reduce risk from possible ground fire?
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-pakistan-violence-airplane/gunmen-fire-on-plane-at-pakistans-peshawar-airport


Your comment would have been true had TTP been still roaming around freely. I don't think it is still a threat.

And why PIA only? Other airlines do not perceive it a risk?

Reactions: Like Like:
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## VCheng

PakSword said:


> Your comment would have been true had TTP been still roaming around freely. I don't think it is still a threat.
> 
> And why PIA only? Other airlines do not perceive it a risk?



Good points. May be that flight profile (and steep descent) was just routine for the experienced pilot over thousands of hours?


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## PakSword

VCheng said:


> Good points. May be that flight profile (and steep descent) was just routine for the experienced pilot over thousands of hours?


Maybe... management gave steep descent orders when there was a risk of ground fire, and then it didn't update those?

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## VCheng

PakSword said:


> Maybe... management gave steep descent orders when there was a risk of ground fire, and then it didn't update those?



I am sure a full investigation will look into all relevant aspects.

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## Thorough Pro

They just proved that they are all fucking unprofessional mafia



R Wing said:


> The local pilots body has said that they will not accept a biased probe.

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## Fawadqasim1

HAIDER said:


> Don't worry, our pilots bring passenger on single engine.....recent case of Toronto flight, where only one engine was functional . Dissolve pilot association, all labor unions. Fire extra staff. Pilots need to pass some kind of knowledge and fitness exam every year. Otherwise such donkey kongs keep on flying planes and risking the life of passengers and giving bad name to national carrier.
> 
> Guys everyone must watch this movie and see how the system is tense for pilots. It is true story and all facts shown in the movie are true and correct.


I have watched this one and it's air crash investigation too. both are worth watching.



VCheng said:


> Good points. May be that flight profile (and steep descent) was just routine for the experienced pilot over thousands of hours?


No it can't be it's like parking a car at 100 km/ hour in a garage.

A few people (pros) may pull it with some cars or vehicles but no marginally sane person will attempt it with his family sitting with him.


----------



## EasyNow

Look, the fuel saving theory does not work - even if pilots are told to fly high to save fuel, you obviously have to descend for landing - the pilot is supposed to manage the rate he does this at.

And the talk of instruments not working etc is nonsense. Even if the instruments told the pilot his altitude was fine, he was warned verbally by ATC. He never raised any concerns about instruments or landing gear. 

The pilots family, pilots association will all obviously want to shift blame or keep things hushed. But there are victims here, whose families have a right to full disclosure.

Suddenly people are looking to blame everyone other than the guy who is confirmed over-altitude, over-speed and over-confident.

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## Ashraf. M

CVR not yet recovered, conversation between pilot & ATC leaked out, cant believe.. and members posting all trash to fix the decased pilot..


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## VCheng

Ashraf. M said:


> CVR not yet recovered, conversation between pilot & ATC leaked out, cant believe.. and members posting all trash to fix the decased pilot..



The CVR has been recovered, reportedly.


----------



## kris

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.al...it-runway-times-approach-200528184334265.html

Interesting news coming

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## razgriz19




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## WebMaster

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2769956839893273


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## Safriz

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1268339710260391938

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## airmarshal

PALPA is a body that plays politics. If there were ever proper investigation in Dec 2016 ATR crash, this crash would not have happened. There are pilots whose licenses are in question. Their cases are pending with CAA. No action is taken. Whenever pilot issue comes up PALPA comes his defence. There have been no pilot certification of PIA for a long time.

I found this report leaked on social media. I hope this is true. The highlighted parts are very revealing. If this PIA investigation is not carried out impartially without a vested interest jeopardizing its outcome, there is a bigger air crash waiting in the future. 





















There was no issue with landing gears. The ATC communication reveals background beep which means 

1) the aircraft has reached critical altitude and landing gears are not deployed 
2) The pilot is trying to deploy landing gears but height and altitude does not allow. 

In this case 2) is the true case.

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## Safriz

All set for report release on 22nd of June.
A debris and ending analysis still needs to be done as engines are still on the crash site.
However this letter from Airbus says they all data from CVR and FDR has been decoded and handed over to investigation teams..and that Airbus has no safety recommendations to be suggested at the moment.
Meaning total pilot error.

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## Blacklight

Safriz said:


> All set for report release on 22nd of June.
> A debris and ending analysis still needs to be done as engines are still on the crash site.
> However this letter from Airbus says they all data from CVR and FDR has been decoded and handed over to investigation teams..and that Airbus has no safety recommendations to be suggested at the moment.
> Meaning total pilot error.
> View attachment 639115


This is very sad.


----------



## Baghial

CAA, AND BOEING WILL DO UTMOST TO BLAME THE PILOT

BILLIONS ARE AT STAKE, FOR BOEING,................if some thing fauty is to be found in pane

every single victim can sue boeing also

and that compensation can bankrupt the company image.


----------



## Blacklight

Baghial said:


> CAA, AND BOEING WILL DO UTMOST TO BLAME THE PILOT
> 
> BILLIONS ARE AT STAKE, FOR BOEING,................if some thing fauty is to be found in pane
> 
> every single victim can sue boeing also
> 
> and that compensation can bankrupt the company image.


It was an Airbus A320, but you go right ahead and sue Boeing.

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## airmarshal

There is likely no report going to be published. Its always that PALPA/PIA and CAA try to hide facts. 

The ATC at Karachi could have stopped the flight from landing telling the pilot he is approaching from a high altitude. There is a beep clearly heard in conversation. The pilot is saying 'I will manage' when ATC pointed to high altitude. Even if ATC allowed to land, the pilot could have swerved to left or right to crash into unpaved side strips. 

Even if report is published (highly unlikely), the CAA ATC actions and how corrupt CAA is will not be addressed.

The last resort for these mafias is to go to court to get a stay. Court always complies and wants to interfere in every admin matter as it too is a status quo special interest.



Baghial said:


> CAA, AND BOEING WILL DO UTMOST TO BLAME THE PILOT
> 
> BILLIONS ARE AT STAKE, FOR BOEING,................if some thing fauty is to be found in pane
> 
> every single victim can sue boeing also
> 
> and that compensation can bankrupt the company image.



Pilot is to be blamed. There is a lot that PALPA has to answer. Its a very political body not professional.

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## Aspen

Safriz said:


> and that Airbus has no safety recommendations to be suggested at the moment.
> Meaning total pilot error.



Damn


----------



## Safriz

airmarshal said:


> There is likely no report going to be published. Its always that PALPA/PIA and CAA try to hide facts.
> 
> The ATC at Karachi could have stopped the flight from landing telling the pilot he is approaching from a high altitude. There is a beep clearly heard in conversation. The pilot is saying 'I will manage' when ATC pointed to high altitude. Even if ATC allowed to land, the pilot could have swerved to left or right to crash into unpaved side strips.
> 
> Even if report is published (highly unlikely), the CAA ATC actions and how corrupt CAA is will not be addressed.
> 
> The last resort for these mafias is to go to court to get a stay. Court always complies and wants to interfere in every admin matter as it too is a status quo special interest.
> 
> 
> 
> Pilot is to be blamed. There is a lot that PALPA has to answer. Its a very political body not professional.


ATC has an advisory role.
Responsibilities lie with the captain of the aircraft.
Pilot can ignore ATC advice and use own discretion.

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## Humble Analyst

Baghial said:


> CAA, AND BOEING WILL DO UTMOST TO BLAME THE PILOT
> 
> BILLIONS ARE AT STAKE, FOR BOEING,................if some thing fauty is to be found in pane
> 
> every single victim can sue boeing also
> 
> and that compensation can bankrupt the company image.


This post makes it clear that there is a preconceived biased view here


----------



## Safriz

Ok this picture is from insta.
It was taken 4 days before the crash. Same crew was flying the plane.
Notice the bottom of both engines.
Is it normal for engines to have marks like that or the engines had scrape marks ?

        View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram


----------



## airmarshal

Safriz said:


> ATC has an advisory role.
> Responsibilities lie with the captain of the aircraft.
> Pilot can ignore ATC advice and use own discretion.



According to my source in PIA, ATC can deny landing if there is an obvious issue he notices like high altitude or landing gears not deployed, provided the aircraft does not have technical issues. Even at critical altitude when ATC noticed no landing gears, he still allowed the plane to crash on its engines! Thats foolish to and lacks common sense.

Actually our attitude is very unprofessional and lax. Its compounded by the fact that most of recruiting is done on political basis and these people dont feel accountable. Why do you think CAA leaked ATC conversation on media channels? It was to absolve itself of any blame. This shows how CAA and PIA lack professionalism.

And these crashes wont ago away unless we get rid of politics in our aviation.



Safriz said:


> Ok this picture is from insta.
> It was taken 4 days before the crash. Same crew was flying the plane.
> Notice the bottom of both engines.
> Is it normal for engines to have marks like that or the engines had scrape marks ?
> 
> View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram
> 
> View attachment 639832



These are fuel leak stains. The aircraft had scraped engine nacelles on ground and there is clear evidence of that. The aircraft in air after crash has RAT deployed and white smoke coming out of engines. There are deeper scratches on the underside of engines.






RAT mean Ram Air Turbine. Its only deployed automatically when engines have failed.


----------



## Safriz

airmarshal said:


> According to my source in PIA, ATC can deny landing if there is an obvious issue he notices like high altitude or landing gears not deployed, provided the aircraft does not have technical issues. Even at critical altitude when ATC noticed no landing gears, he still allowed the plane to crash on its engines! Thats foolish to and lacks common sense.
> 
> Actually our attitude is very unprofessional and lax. Its compounded by the fact that most of recruiting is done on political basis and these people dont feel accountable. Why do you think CAA leaked ATC conversation on media channels? It was to absolve itself of any blame. This shows how CAA and PIA lack professionalism.
> 
> And these crashes wont ago away unless we get rid of politics in our aviation.
> 
> 
> 
> These are fuel leak stains. The aircraft had scraped engine nacelles on ground and there is clear evidence of that. The aircraft in air after crash has RAT deployed and white smoke coming out of engines. There are deeper scratches on the underside of engines.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RAT mean Ram Air Turbine. Its only deployed automatically when engines have failed.
> View attachment 639835


Check again with your source.
ATC can only deny landing under certain limited situations.
Hot and high approach is not one of them.


----------



## Aspen

Safriz said:


> Ok this picture is from insta.
> It was taken 4 days before the crash. Same crew was flying the plane.
> Notice the bottom of both engines.
> Is it normal for engines to have marks like that or the engines had scrape marks ?
> 
> View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram
> 
> View attachment 639832



That's not the same registration


----------



## airmarshal



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## Safriz

airmarshal said:


>


Just watched this video.
I don't know what the pilot was thinking


----------



## airmarshal

He was thinking ... 'sab chalta hai' or 'sab theek hai'. They typical Pakistani unprofessionalism, laid back and damn care attitude. Something that is the result of sifarshi culture.

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## Myth_buster_1

airmarshal said:


> He was thinking ... 'sab chalta hai' or 'sab theek hai'. They typical Pakistani unprofessionalism, laid back and damn care attitude. Something that is the result of sifarshi culture.



I think their was also a report in which few other pilots also attempted same landing approach so its safe to assume that some pilots were trying to show off to each other.



Safriz said:


> Ok this picture is from insta.
> It was taken 4 days before the crash. Same crew was flying the plane.
> Notice the bottom of both engines.
> Is it normal for engines to have marks like that or the engines had scrape marks ?
> 
> View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram
> 
> View attachment 639832



notice that right engine hardly has any markings on the bottom and it would not be visible on side pose. Where as if you look at the image few mins before crash has much more bigger and visible markings which is different from your picture.


----------



## Clutch



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## Aspen

Myth_buster_1 said:


> I think their was also a report in which few other pilots also attempted same landing approach so its safe to assume that some pilots were trying to show off to each other.



That is a very serious allegation, any evidence for this?


----------



## Myth_buster_1

Aspen said:


> That is a very serious allegation, any evidence for this?


Someone posted a landing approach of past couple of weeks where some pilots attempted to land from higher altitude then recommended.


----------



## Aspen

Myth_buster_1 said:


> Someone posted a landing approach of past couple of weeks where some pilots attempted to land from higher altitude then recommended.



Landing from a higher altitude unintentionally is completely different than doing it on purpose to show off.

The latter is reckless and criminal endangerment.

This is what happens when PIA hires PAF pilots. You end up with hotshots in the cockpit who think they can do it all and shoot a descent from 10K feet direct to the runway in 4 minutes. Air Force culture is real, A320 is not a fighter jet but PIA pilots treat it like one. Its not just bad airline culture, its bad safety culture, and dangerous to risk the lives of people who trust you to get them somewhere safely.


----------



## Myth_buster_1

Aspen said:


> Landing from a higher altitude unintentionally is completely different than doing it on purpose to show off.
> 
> The latter is reckless and criminal endangerment.
> 
> This is what happens when PIA hires PAF pilots. You end up with hotshots in the cockpit who think they can do it all and shoot a descent from 10K feet direct to the runway in 4 minutes. Air Force culture is real, A320 is not a fighter jet but PIA pilots treat it like one. Its not just bad airline culture, its bad safety culture, and dangerous to risk the lives of people who trust you to get them somewhere safely.



PAF pilots in PIA are almost extinct! That was the thing of the past until early 1990s when PIA use to be one of the best in the region. thanks to PeePeePEE and PMLN sowar parties who hired patwaris on parchi and got them fake pilot licences.


----------



## Clutch




----------



## Asterisk

PRELIMINARY INVESTIGATION REPORT INTO ACCIDENT OF PIAC FLIGHT PK8303 AIRBUS A320-214 REG NO AP-BLD CRASHED NEAR KARACHI AIRPORT ON 22-05-2020
https://www.caapakistan.com.pk/SIB/SIB-Reports.aspx


----------



## CivilianPerson

Top Airplane crashes in Pakistan


----------



## Ali_Baba

https://www.flightglobal.com/safety...riage-before-gear-up-touchdown/138979.article


----------



## MastanKhan

Hi,

A video of the crash has been released on Jang.com.pk today---.









کراچی: طیارے کی پیٹ کے بل لینڈنگ کی ویڈیو سامنے آگئی


کراچی میں حادثے کا شکار ہونے والے بدقسمت طیارے کی رن وے پر پیٹ کے بل لینڈنگ کی ویڈیو سامنے آگئی ۔




jang.com.pk





And it was the same thing that I assessed right on the first day---.

Totally and absolutely Pilot's errors---one blunder being committed after another.

Aircraft descended to fast---wheels were not out----engines hit the tarmac---twice or maybe four times---so instead of decreasing power and shutting down the engines and and letting the aircraft scrape---crawl to a stop---the pilot decides to takeoff---.

This shows an extremely poor judgement capability under duress---poor training---very very poor situational awareness---basically the 14000 hours pilot was clueless in how to deal with the aircraft after it had already made a crash landing---.

Decides to take off---which happened due to the dive momentum and high speed.

Total incompetence & failure in face of crisis---.


----------



## 313ghazi

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> A video of the crash has been released on Jang.com.pk today---.
> 
> And it was the same thing that I assessed right on the first day---.
> 
> Totally and absolutely Pilot's errors---one blunder being committed after another.
> 
> Aircraft descended to fast---wheels were not out----engines hit the tarmac---twice or maybe four times---so instead of decreasing power and shutting down the engines and and letting the aircraft scrape---crawl to a stop---the pilot decides to takeoff---.
> 
> This shows an extremely poor judgement capability under duress---poor training---very very poor situational awareness---basically the 14000 hours pilot was clueless in how to deal with the aircraft after it had already made a crash landing---.
> 
> Decides to take off---which happened due to the dive momentum and high speed.
> 
> Total incompetence & failure in face of crisis---.



Same pilots who were complaining when govt took away thier fake credentials.


----------



## arjunk

I saw this thread and nearly had a heart attack because I thought another crash happened.

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## Imran Khan

313ghazi said:


> Same pilots who were complaining when govt took away thier fake credentials.


this was pure pilot erorr also gwader and skardu ATRs were also pilot errors sir

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## Raider 21

Imran Khan said:


> this was pure pilot erorr also gwader and skardu ATRs were also pilot errors sir


The A320 was not pilot error. It looked very intentional regarding what they thought would have been a belly landing without doing a go-around. Their final approach speed was almost 200 kts, even F-7s land slightly slower.


----------



## Imran Khan

Raider 21 said:


> The A320 was not pilot error. It looked very intentional regarding what they thought would have been a belly landing without doing a go-around. Their final approach speed was almost 200 kts, even F-7s land slightly slower.


why belly landing ? when at 2nd attempt landing gears were out ?

1st time 





2nd time 






Raider 21 said:


> The A320 was not pilot error. It looked very intentional regarding what they thought would have been a belly landing without doing a go-around. Their final approach speed was almost 200 kts, even F-7s land slightly slower.


why belly landing ? when at 2nd attempt landing gears were out ?

1st time 




2nd time


----------



## Ahmet Pasha

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> A video of the crash has been released on Jang.com.pk today---.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> کراچی: طیارے کی پیٹ کے بل لینڈنگ کی ویڈیو سامنے آگئی
> 
> 
> کراچی میں حادثے کا شکار ہونے والے بدقسمت طیارے کی رن وے پر پیٹ کے بل لینڈنگ کی ویڈیو سامنے آگئی ۔
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jang.com.pk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And it was the same thing that I assessed right on the first day---.
> 
> Totally and absolutely Pilot's errors---one blunder being committed after another.
> 
> Aircraft descended to fast---wheels were not out----engines hit the tarmac---twice or maybe four times---so instead of decreasing power and shutting down the engines and and letting the aircraft scrape---crawl to a stop---the pilot decides to takeoff---.
> 
> This shows an extremely poor judgement capability under duress---poor training---very very poor situational awareness---basically the 14000 hours pilot was clueless in how to deal with the aircraft after it had already made a crash landing---.
> 
> Decides to take off---which happened due to the dive momentum and high speed.
> 
> Total incompetence & failure in face of crisis---.


They essentially didn't follow the landing checklists properly.


----------



## Raider 21

Imran Khan said:


> why belly landing ? when at 2nd attempt landing gears were out ?
> 
> 1st time
> View attachment 695335
> 
> 2nd time
> View attachment 695336
> 
> 
> why belly landing ? when at 2nd attempt landing gears were out ?
> 
> 1st time
> View attachment 695335
> 
> 2nd time
> View attachment 695336


I meant the first attempt. Why as to I don't know. But since it is classified as pilot error, these PIA pilots gave it another definition.....

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## Tomcats

*Relatives of PK-8303 crash victims demand better investigation, compensation*




RELATIVES of the crash victims protest outside the press club on Wednesday.—Shakil Adil/White Star

KARACHI: Against the backdrop of photographs of the 97 lives lost in the PK-8303 crash, which happened on May 22, 2020 on the last Friday of last Ramazan, the relatives of the victims, still grieving over their losses, shared before jam-packed media at the Karachi Press Club on Wednesday their pain. They are still awaiting justice.
The panaflex, which also had the heading ‘Never to be forgotten’, didn’t have photos of all the 97 victims. Some pictures were just outlines in small frames. They represented those who could not be identified to this day. At the bottom there was also written: ‘Innocent lives lost because of Pakistan International Airlines [PIA] and Civil Aviation Authority [CAA] negligence’.
There were the victims’ family members on the stage and in the audience as well. Some held printouts with the wording ‘Justice for PK8303 families’, some were reading from the Quran.
Providing a brief background about the fateful flight that never landed, Kanwal Arsalan, the sister of one of the victims Mirza Waheed Beg, said that she lost her only brother in the crash.

“The lockdown had left many lonely, many had to spend time away from their loved ones. But then there was Eid approaching and PIA was restarting its flights. The passengers of PK-8303 happily left their homes in Lahore to head for the airport, they were all so looking forward to be with their loved ones on Eid,” she said.


> ‘We have certain expectations from the government, PIA, CAA, courts and the cabinet’


“The flight took off from Lahore and was about to land at Karachi when its captain was informed by the air traffic control [ATC] that he was too shallow in his approach to which he replied ‘I’m comfortable’. And the control tower seemed okay with the answer. The pilot was never told to correct plane’s altitude. Then we all know what happened. It scraped the runway without opening its wheels, took off again to attempt landing again, and again. On the final try, the pilot finally realised that he couldn’t even reach the runway. And that’s when he cried ‘Mayday’, that’s when he crashed his plane into the buildings surrounding the airport,” the affectee reminded.

“Then as all hell broke loose and there was a huge fire, too, as a result of the crash, PIA and CAA due to whose carelessness the crash had happened were nowhere to be found. The fire blazed. We could only get charred pieces of our loved ones. But what is happening now?” she questioned.

Zarka Khalid Chaudhary, another affectee, whose father, Mohammad Saleem Aslam, died in the crash and whose widowed mother, who couldn’t handle her grief, also passed away within 21 days of the terrible tragedy, said that they are here addressing a press conference to inform the media about all that they have been facing afterwards and all that they want to see done to prevent such a tragedy in future.

“We have certain expectations from the government, PIA, CAA, courts and the cabinet. We don’t want anyone else to go through what we did. It is what helps us carry on with our mission,” she said.

*Majority awaits insurance money*

Another affectee Azmat Yar Khan said that he lost his brother and niece in the crash. “We want to make air travel safe first. But it is being said about us that we want money or compensation. This crash has brought 97 families together. Yes, there are some among us who have lost their breadwinners and are under severe strain but still they have turned down the compensation because it is being offered on a condition of forgoing our right to question the crash and the circumstances that led to it,” he said.

“Only 36 affectees were paid compensation and most of them are the families of the PIA crew that also lost their lives in the crash. We are asking for the insurance money, which is also our right as we lost loved ones. But we are told that we can only get even that after signing some papers that say that we won’t ask any more questions afterwards. It has not even been found out as yet whether the crash was an accident or the result of carelessness or anything else, and we are being asked to sign such papers. All passengers who lost their lives, their families are entitled to a fixed amount, their families are also entitled to damages due to loss of their luggage but we are being pushed into a maze where they throw all kinds of hurdles of confusing laws before us. They are asking us to agree to illegal things,” he complained.

“There are so many things that have been happening to us that are wrong. PIA still has the luggage of the passengers, which they have kept with it. But our relatives’ belongings are keepsakes for us, which they don’t realise. There are some passengers’ families whose DNA test results have still not been given to them, even though Punjab Forensics has the results of the same samples within hours,” he added.

Another affectee, Dr Mohammad Mohsin Aman, said the most concerning among the conditions laid out before they can accept the compensation or insurance money is the clause that says you cannot question the findings of the crash investigations or challenge them in any court of law.

“But you tell us, when there is no punishment for carelessness or any other wrongdoing then how can you prevent the wrong from happening again? If the ATC was at fault, then see to it that this kind of thing does not happen again,” he said.

He also laid before the media three main demands: “Firstly, we want to see the Aircraft Accident and Investigation Board’s procedure to be reconstituted. We want to see investigation done in a better way and not like how it is being handled right now. Second, we want the amount that is our right disbursed without any conditions. We are not greedy people, but we also have our needs, especially those among us who lost an earning family member in the crash. The insurance money is our right anyway, compensation comes later. And third, we want an emergency response centre at the airport that should be active 24 hours.”

“Here after the crash, we were all left to run around in circles trying to find out about the casualties, the survivors, the injured and where they were being taken,” he added.

Junaid Hamid, an affectee of the Airblue crash of 2010, and who has now formed the Airblue Crash Affectees Association, said that Pakistan has the highest rate of aviation disasters for the last 10 years. “This is not normal. There must be a reason for it. Who’s at fault,” he questioned.

_Published in Dawn, May 13th, 2021_









Relatives of PK-8303 crash victims demand better investigation, compensation


We have certain expectations from the government, PIA, CAA, courts and the cabinet, they say.



www.dawn.com

Reactions: Sad Sad:
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## sur

Raider 21 said:


> *The A320 was not pilot error.* It looked very intentional regarding what they thought would have been a belly landing without doing a go-around. Their final approach speed was almost 200 kts, even F-7s land slightly slower.





Imran Khan said:


> *why belly landing ? when at 2nd attempt landing gears were out ?*
> 
> 1st time
> View attachment 695335
> 
> 2nd time
> View attachment 695336



It was indeed an error of BOTH the pilot(s). Of course not intentional, rather a miss. As well as control tower's failure to eye-ball the landing-gear-down. *In addition* to a final descent of more than ~1125 ft/min (instead of 500-800 ft/min) as well as touching down half way through the runway instead of first third of the runway. On top of that, the decision to go-around instead of letting the plane belly-land on 1st attempt (probably because pilots were startled and suddenly realized their mistake . . and had a knee-jerk reaction to go-around) .

Pilot *lowered *landing gear . . . *then raised* them . . . and then *forgot to lower them again* at the *1st* landing attempt.

From the report below, I quote:


https://www.caapakistan.com.pk/Upload/SIBReports/AAIB-431.pdf




"The FDR indicated action of *lowering** of the landing gears at **7221 ft* at around 10.5 Nautical Miles from Runway "

"However, FDR shows action of *raising** of the landing gears at **1740 ft*"

"*At **500 ft*, the FDR indicates: *landing gear **retracted*"

"*several warnings and alerts* *such as* over-speed, *landing gear not down* and ground proximity alerts *were disregarded*. The landing was undertaken with landing gears retracted."



These warnings were confirmed by audio recording of the radio communication as shown in screenshots in the post below :



sur said:


> Extremely sad event and it disturbed me down to the core as it did to many others.
> 
> I'm no expert , just posting some screenshots from this video:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Appears that it was co-pilot (1st man?) who was on the radio, not the main pilot. As we can hear pilot dictating the co-pilot *@1:56*
> 
> Looks like landing gear's problem ("ding ding ding" heard *@0:44*) was before 1st attempt to land. Despite that "ding ding ding", pilot attempted landing half way through runway (as video here says), scrapped the engines. And called out a TO/GA "going around".
> 
> Then engines can be heard speeding up *@1:19*.
> 
> *@2:42* Looks like ATC didn't expect them to turn left,
> but co-pilot informed that they're turning back due to engine loss.
> 
> From ALT graph, appears that when plane attempted 1st landing, its descent rate was *~2500 ft/min* or may be even more just before making ground contact. Which should have been around *~500 ft/min*.?
> 
> 
> View attachment 635152
> 
> 
> 
> I may be wrong above that rate was 2500 ftm just before touch down:
> It may be *~1125 ftm*.
> Still higher (twice as much) than 500 - 800 ft/m.
> 
> 
> Source: this tweet.
> View attachment 635160

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## Imran Khan

sur said:


> It was indeed a pilot error. Of course not intentional, rather a miss.
> Pilot *lowered *landing gear . . . *then raised* them . . . and then *forgot to lower them again* at the *1st* landing attempt.
> 
> From the report below I quote:
> 
> 
> https://www.caapakistan.com.pk/Upload/SIBReports/AAIB-431.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "The FDR indicated action of *lowering** of the landing gears at **7221 ft* at around 10.5 Nautical Miles from Runway "
> 
> "However, FDR shows action of *raising** of the landing gears at **1740 ft*"
> 
> "*At **500 ft*, the FDR indicates: *landing gear **retracted*"
> 
> "*several warnings and alerts* *such as* over-speed, *landing gear not down* and ground proximity alerts *were disregarded*. The landing was undertaken with landing gears retracted."
> 
> 
> 
> These warnings were confirmed by audio recording of the radio communication as shown in screenshots in the post below :


CAA and french reports are online now it was pilot error

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## krash

Imran Khan said:


> CAA and french reports are online now it was pilot error



Not the first time a Pakistani commercial pilot has killed dozens in pursuit of his own moronic arrogance against repeated advice to the contrary. 

I know that collision and terrain avoidance is the responsibility of the pilot in command but could the ATC have denied him, given his obvious departure from the SOP? Doesn't say that they warned the pilot of his gear status either.

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## VCheng

sur said:


> Pilot *lowered *landing gear . . . *then raised* them . . . and then *forgot to lower them again* at the *1st* landing attempt.



The pilot deployed the landing gear at a speed greater than 250 knots. The plane is programmed to deploy the gear only below 250 knots, So it auto-raised it. The pilot did not check it again since he had already lowered it.


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## Imran Khan

krash said:


> Not the first time a Pakistani commercial pilot has killed dozens in pursuit of his own moronic arrogance against repeated advice to the contrary.
> 
> I know that collision and terrain avoidance is the responsibility of the pilot in command but could the ATC have denied him, given his obvious departure from the SOP? Doesn't say that they warned the pilot of his gear status either.


yes sir its nto the first time last time it was air blue pilot did it in margalla

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## ACE OF HEARTS

It was PILOT ERROR. 

Everything would be clear from Day 1, if they could make PUBLIC the recorded conversation between the Pilot and ATC.


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