# The Ramadan War: The Battle for Dignity



## Menes

I will post here articles, photos, and videos about the Ramadan War Inshallah.

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## Menes

Whats Ramadan War?
The Ramadan War, October War, or Yom Kippur War, broke out on 6th of October/10th of Ramadan, when the Arab armies attacked IDF in the Israeli occupied Sinai and Golan.

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## Menes

Part of the documentary _Why Intelligence Fails: Surprise Attack_ by Discovery Channel. It shows how Egyptian intelligence successfully deceived the Israeli Mossad.

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## file12345

What do you think was the end result of the war?


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## Menes

An interesting documentary _Fields of Armour_ by Discovery Channel too about the War.

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## Menes

file12345 said:


> What do you think was the end result of the war?


The Arabs - Egypt in particular - achieved a great political and Strategic victory out of the war.
Militarily, the result was stalemate on both fronts, although the Egyptian army achieved its objective, liberated the east bank of the Suez Canal, and did ultimately succeed in forcing the Israelis back to negotiation table.


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## Menes

Another Documentary _20th Century Battlefields: 1973 Middle East_ by BBC.

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## Solomon2

> and did ultimately succeed in forcing the Israelis back to negotiation table.


The Israelis had never left the table; the Arabs did that. Sadat thought the Arabs needed "dignity" before they could return. In cause of that emotion, thousands of Israelis and Arabs died. I always wonder why Arabs are proud rather than shamed to have participated in wars against Israel.

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## Menes

Parts of the documentary _The 50 Years War: Israel and the Arabs_ by PBS.

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## Menes

Solomon2 said:


> The Israelis had never left the table; the Arabs did that. Sadat thought the Arabs needed "dignity" before they could return. In cause of that emotion, thousands of Israelis and Arabs died. I always wonder why Arabs are proud rather than shamed to have participated in wars against Israel.


The fact is that Sadat offered peace many times before the war in return of Sinai, however the Israeli government rejected all his offers.



> In cause of that emotion, thousands of Israelis and Arabs died. I always wonder why Arabs are proud rather than shamed to have participated in wars against Israel.


There will be always victims and violence in the middle east because of the Israeli occupation of Arab lands.



> I always wonder why Arabs are proud rather than shamed to have participated in wars against Israel.


We are proud because we are fighting for our lands which have been occupied by the Israelis aggressors.

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## Menes

Free PDF book about the war..

Gawrych, Dr. George W. (1996). _The 1973 Arab-Israeli War: The Albatross of Decisive Victory_. Combat Studies Institute, U.S. Army Command and General Staff College.


Intro
Part I
Part II
Part III
Part IV
Part V
Part VI
Part VII
Notes
Source: CSI Publications in parts


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## Solomon2

Menes said:


> The fact is that Sadat offered peace many times before the war in return of Sinai, however the Israeli government rejected all his offers.


I doubt it. Please cite at least two such occasions. As far as I know, Sadat preceded the Yom Kippur War with periodic threats. 



> There will be always victims and violence in the middle east because of the Israeli occupation of Arab lands. We are proud because we are fighting for our lands which have been occupied by the Israelis aggressors.


What makes them "aggressors"? Are you simply parroting what you were taught in school? If you are an Egyptian and older than fifteen or so you know by observation and experience that much of what the authorities tell you is a lie. Is there some reason you can think of why they would teach you the truth about Jews and Israel?


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## Quwa

Solomon2 said:


> I doubt it. Please cite at least two such occasions. As far as I know, Sadat preceded the Yom Kippur War with periodic threats.
> 
> What makes them "aggressors"? Are you simply parroting what you were taught in school? If you are an Egyptian and older than fifteen or so you know by observation and experience that much of what the authorities tell you is a lie. Is there some reason you can think of why they would teach you the truth about Jews and Israel?


To Muslims, the *Israeli State* as an authority and force is an aggressor as it was built upon colonially occupied Muslim land. Furthermore, we don't feel less agitated when we're on the receiving end of the Jewish guilt trip when in fact much of the Holocaust and other brutal crimes & genocide were committed in Europe. That said, I am no supporter of any of today's Muslim regimes (including Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan, etc) as they are all Islamically illegitimate sources of authority. My personal condemnation of Israel stems from this fact, not because it is a Jewish state...personally I have no issue with Jews wishing to prosper in Muslim lands...but do so under a true Islamic State.

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## Menes

Solomon2 said:


> Please cite at least two such occasions.


Sadat suggested in Feb 1971, an Israeli withdrawal 32 km into Sinai, limited Egyptian troops and UN peace keeping force would be deployed on the eastern bank of Suez, and to reopen the Suez Canal for international navigation, followed by six months of negotiations. PM Golda Meir rejected Sadat's offer. Ironically enough, IDF retreated 35 km into Sinai after the war in Jan 1974.
Also in May 1973, Sadat proposed peace agreement, which was secretly submitted to Kissinger, Israel again rejected the offer. Sadat's initiative was described as the last chance to avoid war.



> Sadat preceded the Yom Kippur War with periodic threats.


That's right. He also threatened war renewal in case of talk's failure in 1975 and 1978.



> What makes them "aggressors"?


Their occupation of Arab territories, and their refusal to give it up peacefully.


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## Menes

This chapter talks about the Pakistani role during the war. 

Chapter 9 - Pakistan and Ramadan War

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## Menes

> Egyptian Soldiers celebrate the successful crossing of the Suez canal during the war

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## 500

Menes said:


> The fact is that Sadat offered peace many times before the war in return of Sinai, however the Israeli government rejected all his offers.


Saddat did not agree for direct peace talks + he asked preconditions. Israel wanted direct talks without preconditions. Thats what happaned after the war.



> There will be always victims and violence in the middle east because of the Israeli occupation of Arab lands.


Why Arabs did not make peace before 1967? 



> Militarily, the result was stalemate on both fronts,


Militarily on Syrian front Israel acheived undisputable victory.
On Egyptian front Israel surrounded 3rd Egyptian army and only superpower intevention prevented its destruction.



> Sadat suggested in Feb 1971, an Israeli withdrawal 32 km into Sinai, limited Egyptian troops and UN peace keeping force would be deployed on the eastern bank of Suez, and to reopen the Suez Canal for international navigation, followed by six months of negotiations. PM Golda Meir rejected Sadat's offer.


Saddat wanted *90 mile* withrdawal, thats 144 km.



> Ironically enough, IDF retreated 35 km into Sinai after the war in Jan 1974.


20 km (10 km limited force Egyptian zone + 10 km UN zone).


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## Beskar

Great stuff Menes, keep em' coming. 

By the way, the episode from "20th Century Battlefields" is one of the best modern analysis of a war, period!

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## Menes

500 said:


> Saddat did not agree for direct peace talks + he asked preconditions. Israel wanted direct talks without preconditions. Thats what happaned after the war.
> 
> Why Arabs did not make peace before 1967?
> 
> Militarily on Syrian front Israel acheived undisputable victory.
> On Egyptian front Israel surrounded 3rd Egyptian army and only superpower intevention prevented its destruction.
> 
> Saddat wanted *90 mile* withrdawal, thats 144 km.
> 
> 20 km (10 km limited force Egyptian zone + 10 km UN zone).


Hello 500,

There were another two great threads discussing the war on other forums. I used to follow them for years, as I am very interested in collecting rare pics about Egyptian military, I never posted anything there though.

I also noticed that you participated in both threads, but all what you did there was to divert topics into endless debates that could last for many pages. although you are always given fair replies that are supported by Israeli sources or even the US national archive, but it's obvious that you can accept sources only if they are written by ultra rightist Israeli historians.

Sorry, I will not allow you to ruin my thread. So, either post something useful here, or your posts will be ignored.


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## Menes

I don't know if it's allowed to post links to other forums, but anyways I will copy replies to him and re post them here later.


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## Menes

> Posing with a friendly UN officer, Egyptian soldiers of the trapped 3rd army enjoy the peace the disengagement talks brought about in Sinai.


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## sergente rehan

Solomon2 said:


> The Israelis had never left the table; the Arabs did that. Sadat thought the Arabs needed "dignity" before they could return. In cause of that emotion, thousands of Israelis and Arabs died. I always wonder why Arabs are proud rather than shamed to have participated in wars against Israel.



why they have to be shamed to have participated in wars against Israel?

Wars are quite always the wrong way to risolve anything but if you say that arabs have to be ashamed then U.S. also have to be ashamed of Vietnam war and also for the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. Where are the Arms of mass destruction in Iraq? the main reason for which U.S. invaded Iraq....but let's don't get off topic.

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## 500

Menes said:


> but it's obvious that you can accept sources only if they are written by ultra rightist Israeli historians.
> 
> Sorry, I will not allow you to ruin my thread. So, either post something useful here, or your posts will be ignored.


Here quotes from 1971 newspapers:











I dont plan arguing either, just correcting some facts.


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## Canaan

why arabs didn't make peace pre-1967?
Simple
because your fake state was created with the help of backstabbing and deceptive western governments on ethnically cleansed Arab and Muslim land and hence should be fought until it is relocated to the Western world where it belongs.


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## 500

> ethnically cleansed


You are wrong. I see many Arabs daily here. Arabic is official language in Israel.


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## Canaan

500 said:


> You are wrong. I see many Arabs daily here. Arabic is official language in Israel.



You know exactly what I mean 
You are living on a land that someone else was living on 62 years ago and who were forced out by force.
Why else were 800,000 palestinians forced into exile and are 62 years later still living outside of their land not allowed to return? Why are poles, russian and american jews living in my family's homes in northern Galilee like thousands of other Palestinian families? 

I was in occupied Palestine this year, and heck! apart from ethnically cleansing what is left, and the continuing of building illegal settlements on occupied land, you even started to change the road signs where the old Arabic names are removed and replaced with the hebrew names written in arabic letters.

Why are more than 500 palestinian villages not on the official israeli map today?

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## Menes

500 said:


> Here quotes from 1971 newspapers:
> 
> I dont plan arguing either, just correcting some facts.



Newspapers?!! 

Ok, thanks.


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## Menes

> Egyptian soldiers in Sinai prior to the disengagement pose smiling by the skeleton of an IAF Skyhawk.










> Egyptian commando from one of the 26 commando battalions in Egyptian service in 1973 redeploy in Sinai.










> An AK-47 carried by lead soldier wrapped in tan cloth for camouflage.


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## Menes

Collection of photos from the Israeli side.

IDF Armor Blog


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## Nishan

Solomon2 said:


> . . . Are you simply parroting what you were taught in school? . . . much of what the authorities tell you is a lie. Is there some reason you can think of why they would teach you the truth about Jews and Israel?



The same thing applies to you Solomon2:

. . . Are you simply parroting what you were taught in school? . . . much of what the authorities tell you is a lie. Is there some reason you can think of why they would teach you the truth about Arabs and Muslims?

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## 500

Canaan said:


> You know exactly what I mean


I really dont know what u mean. Since the beginning of Zionism in 1880, Arab population of Palestine grew over 12 times. Arabs in Israel live beter than in neighbour countries, Arabic is official language in Israel. 



> You are living on a land that someone else was living


I live in town called Holon, there was nothing but sand dune here.



Menes said:


> Newspapers?!!
> 
> Ok, thanks.


3afwuan.  Whats wrong with newspapers? Can you bring better source proving your claims? I would be happy to see.


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## Canaan

500 said:


> I really dont know what u mean. Since the beginning of Zionism in 1880, Arab population of Palestine grew over 12 times. Arabs in Israel live beter than in neighbour countries, Arabic is official language in Israel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are mixing things up really, how arabs live in israel or not can never justify any ethnic cleansing and occupation, it's just a bad excuse. You want to tell me that because the arab population including the so-called "israeli"-arabs grew 12 times, no ethnic cleansing happened. Let me put it this way. In the late 19th century, the arab population of Palestine was between 94-96% of the total population owning more than 98% of the land.The jewish population of Palestine was a mere 4-5%, of which most still held their citizenship of their home nations, russia, prussia etc.
> 
> In 2010 the picture is reversed. While the arab population grew 12 times the jewish/israeli population grew *350 times!* due to immigration of jews and non-jews to "israel".
> The palestinians control less than 60% of the 11% remaining of their own homeland (area a and b), and is de facto under occupation.
> Holon was established in 1935, in Palestine which was under a british occupation/mandate due to the fall of the Ottoman empire, Israel didn't even exist then.
> 
> Put emotions and nationalism aside, do you true to your heart honestly think it is on a fair basis that Israel was created?
Click to expand...

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## 500

Canaan said:


> In the late 19th century, the arab population of Palestine was between 94-96% of the total population


In 1880 there were 400 thousands Arabs, today - 5 million.



> owning more than 98% of the land.


Thats not true. First of all most of the lands were bellong to state. Secondly large portions of land were and still belong to churches (for example Israeli parliament is built on land bought from church). Thirdly most of the Arab lands were belong to rich landlords from Beiruit, Damascus, Cairo. 



> In 2010 the picture is reversed. While the arab population grew 12 times the jewish/israeli population grew *350 times!* due to immigration of jews and non-jews to "israel".


240 times. Muslim population of UK also grew similary I guess. It did not happen at expence of local population.



> The palestinians control less than 60% of the 11% remaining of their own homeland (area a and b), and is de facto under occupation.


Palestinians own lots of lands in Israel and areas A and B.



> Holon was established in 1935, in Palestine which was under a british occupation/mandate due to the fall of the Ottoman empire, Israel didn't even exist then.


It was established on sand dune.



> Put emotions and nationalism aside, do you true to your heart honestly think it is on a fair basis that Israel was created?


Not less fair than other states. You can also ask 1.5 milion of Israeli Arabs. The overwhelming majority of them will tell you that they want to be citizens of Israel and not Palestine.


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## Canaan

500 said:


> I
> 
> 
> 
> n 1880 there were 400 thousands Arabs, today - 5 million.
> 
> 
> 
> there were an estimated 411,000 of whom 4&#37; were jews, most of them holding foreign passports.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thats not true. First of all most of the lands were bellong to state. Secondly large portions of land were and still belong to churches (for example Israeli parliament is built on land bought from church). Thirdly most of the Arab lands were belong to rich landlords from Beiruit, Damascus, Cairo.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wrong again and let me tell you why:
> According to the British Mandates Survey of Palestine prior to the 1947 partition plan: The Jews before 1920 owned an estimated 650,000 dunums (1000 sq. meters) fast forward just as of 1945, the land ownership of jews, (including what was purchased from arabs) had grown to 1,588,365 dunums (1000 sq. meters) which is exactly *6%* no more no less! meaning arabs still owned 94% of Palestine and the myth about Arabs selling most of the land to jews, DEBUNKED. You do know that there was an enforced death penalty for anyone who sold Palestinian land to the arriving jewish colonialists.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Palestine was not a british state, it was a mandate handed down by the league of nations and does not entitle land ownership, only control.
> 
> Palestine was an A Mandate
> 
> The A Mandates (applied to parts of the old Ottoman Empire) were 'certain communities' that had
> *...reached a stage of development where their existence as independent nations can be provisionally recognised subject to the rendering of administrative advice and assistance by a Mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone.* The wishes of these communities must be a principal consideration in the selection of the Mandatory.
> _&#8211; Article 22, The Covenant of the League of Nations (1924)_
> This reflects reality as almost every single palestinian family including mine, still hold the ownership documents of the land, which israel of course doesn't want to accept or recognize.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 240 times. Muslim population of UK also grew similary I guess. It did not happen at expence of local population.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 349 point something rounded up to 350, check your numbers again.
> And of course it ended up being at the expense of the local population. Why else were 80% of the Palestinian population forced into exile and still after 62 years not allowed back home? in my world this is ethnic cleansing.
> Muslims constitute 3.86% of the total population in the UK, they never intended to come colonize and take over the UK, what a strange comparison.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Palestinians own lots of lands in Israel and areas A and B.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I am still talking about occupied land, not what a few own.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It was established on sand dune.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> True, but it was still established in 1935 before Israels creation, meaning in Palestine. I don't mind Holon, it was one of the few places not established on top of Palestinian cities or villages.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not less fair than other states. You can also ask 1.5 milion of Israeli Arabs. The overwhelming majority of them will tell you that they want to be citizens of Israel and not Palestine.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Way less fair, how many other states can "pride" itself by being created out of ethnic cleansing and lies? not many.
> I know a lot of these people you talk about, of course they don't want to live in Fatah's (corrupt) mini state in Ramallah and the West Bank.
> I don't ignore the good sides of the modern Israeli society and its achievements, but still this doesn't justify occupation.
Click to expand...

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## 500

Canaan said:


> 500 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I
> there were an estimated 411,000 of whom 4% were jews, most of them holding foreign passports.
> 
> 
> 
> There were 24,000 Jews, thats almost 6%.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> had grown to 1,588,365 dunums (1000 sq. meters) which is exactly *6%* no more no less! meaning arabs still owned 94% of Palestine
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I repeat again, not Jewish land =! Arab land. Because most of the lands were belong to Ottoman Empire. Also lost of lands were belonged to churches and western countries. Also most of Arab lands were belong to foreign landlors and not to poor peasants.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 349 point something rounded up to 350, check your numbers again
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 24 k ---> 5500 k
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And of course it ended up being at the expense of the local population. Why else were 80% of the Palestinian population forced into exile and still after 62 years not allowed back home? in my world this is ethnic cleansing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> These are absurd numbers. If you want to know real ethnic cleansing I can show u:
> 
> In 1850 there were 6.6 mln Irish in Ireland and 0.35 mln Arabs in Palestine.
> 
> Today there are 4.5 mln Irish in Ireland and 5 mln Arabs in Palestine.
> 
> As you can see, since mid of 19th century Itish population in Ireland dropped 1.5 times while Arab population in Palestine grew 14 times.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Muslims constitute 3.86% of the total population in the UK
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They grew hundreds times since 19th century.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am still talking about occupied land, not what a few own.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You are confusing lkand oiwnership with sovereignty.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> True, but it was still established in 1935 before Israels creation, meaning in Palestine.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Palestine is nothing but Hebrew name of this region. It is not a country.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Way less fair, how many other states can "pride" itself by being created out of ethnic cleansing and lies? not many.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> As I said before, 100,000 mln people became refugees in 20th century alone. Among them 850 K Jews from Arab countries.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know a lot of these people you talk about, of course they don't want to live in Fatah's (corrupt) mini state in Ramallah and the West Bank.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Normal state on 1967 borders with little changes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't ignore the good sides of the modern Israeli society and its achievements, but still this doesn't justify occupation.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 1.5 mln of Arabs in Israel dont mind to live in Israel.
> 1.5 mln of Arabs in Gaza live under rule of Hamas, there is no single Israeli there.
> remaining 2 mln Arabs in West Bank live in wide authonomy. They can easily get a state once they sign peace.
> 
> So where is that "occupation"?
Click to expand...


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## Nishan

http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/67101-solution-israeli-issue.html


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## KingSparta1990

The moment Israel was created on Arab land was an act of war. It wasn't your property to make a country out of. Nothing can excuse what you did no matter how much BS you speak.

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## 500

KingSparta1990 said:


> The moment Israel was created on Arab land was an act of war. It wasn't your property to make a country out of. Nothing can excuse what you did no matter how much BS you speak.


Israel, like the Arab states, was formed on lands of former Ottoman Empire.


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## Nishan

500 said:


> Israel, like the Arab states, was formed on lands of former Ottoman Empire.



and the Ottoman Empire was formed on lands of former states . . etc


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## su-47

Nishan said:


> and the Ottoman Empire was formed on lands of former states . . etc



If we think like that, USA is illegal. It was built on lands seized from Native Americans. And pretty much all countries in North and South America are illegal.

Fact is Israel is here to stay. How can there be peace in the middle east if you blatantly refuse to accept that?

Look at what happened with Egypt. Egypt initially doesn't accept Israel, and there are wars. Thousands die for no reason. Egypt accepts Israel, and voila! Peace! at the end of the day, what was gained from the hostility? just death and destruction.


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## Nishan

su-47 said:


> If we think like that, USA is illegal. It was built on lands seized from Native Americans. And pretty much all countries in North and South America are illegal.
> 
> Fact is Israel is here to stay. How can there be peace in the middle east if you blatantly refuse to accept that?
> 
> Look at what happened with Egypt. Egypt initially doesn't accept Israel, and there are wars. Thousands die for no reason. Egypt accepts Israel, and voila! Peace! at the end of the day, what was gained from the hostility? just death and destruction.



first: Extermination of indigenous peoples and the occupation of its territory, Just like the Europeans do in the New World, It is immoral and inhumane.

second: There is no similarity between Palestine and the New World, Because Palestine is the land of civilizations and land of the three monotheistic religions.

third: Palestine Were not in one day Depopulated, And say that Jews have set up their own state In Uninhabited land Is stupid and foolish

forth: you Wants the Arabs to accept the occupation of their land, Do you accept to cut part of Botswana or India to create a state for Jews on it ?

sixth: When the Arabs regain their occupied land, and When the Jews return to their places of origin In Europe, America and North Africa , Then wars will stop and there will be peace in region


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## Menes

500 said:


> Can you bring better source proving your claims?


I don't have to provide any sources, since your own Israeli historians and politicians blame PM Meir for the outbreak of the war, because of her rejection of Sadat's initiatives, that's a common knowledge.

You're doing your best to derail my thread BTW.

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## Nishan



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## Menes

su-47 said:


> If we think like that, USA is illegal. It was built on lands seized from Native Americans. And pretty much all countries in North and South America are illegal.


US is illegal, but Arabs are not red Indians. 



> Look at what happened with Egypt. Egypt initially doesn't accept Israel, and there are wars. Thousands die for no reason. Egypt accepts Israel, and voila! Peace! at the end of the day, what was gained from the hostility? just death and destruction.


According to modern Israeli historians, Arabs agreed to sign peace treaty with Israel in 1949, but Zionists wanted to annex more Arab lands. Thousands of Israelis died for Sinai, but now it's ours after all.

"At Lausanne, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and the Palestinians were trying to save by negotiations what they had lost in the war; a Palestinian state alongside Israel. Israel, however preferred tenuous armistice agreements to a definite peace that would involve territorial concessions and the repatriation of even a token number of refugees. The refusal to recognize the Palestinians&#8217; right to self-determination and statehood proved over the years to be the main source of the turbulence, violence, and bloodshed that came to pass." -_The Birth Of Israel_ by Simha Flapan


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## Menes

> Egyptian Zyl truck with 130mm rocket tubes, camouflaged in sand and green.









> One of the historic breaches hosed in the sand ramparts of the eastern bank of Suez Canal.









> Egyptian soldiers raise their own flag over a captured Israeli strongpoint in the Bar-Lev line, and hurl the Israeli flag away.


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## 500

Nishan said:


> first: Extermination of indigenous peoples and the occupation of its territory, Just like the Europeans do in the New World, It is immoral and inhumane.


I repeat, Arab population *grew 12 times* since the beginning of Zionism, what extermination are u talking about?



> second: There is no similarity between Palestine and the New World, Because Palestine is the land of civilizations and land of the three monotheistic religions.


yep, Europeans in new wolrd were total aliens, Jews lived in Palestine since 4000 years ago. 



> third: Palestine Were not in one day Depopulated, And say that Jews have set up their own state In Uninhabited land Is stupid and foolish


In time of Jesus Palestine population was 2-3 millions, when Zionism started it was only 400 K. Now its back to millions.



> forth: you Wants the Arabs to accept the occupation of their land, Do you accept to cut part of Botswana or India to create a state for Jews on it ?


Jews are indegenous population of Middle East. They lived in Palestine thousands years before the Arabs. Arabs got 99.9% of Middle East with all resources, Jews want only 0.1% of deserted land.



> sixth: When the Arabs regain their occupied land, and When the Jews return to their places of origin In Europe, America and North Africa , Then wars will stop and there will be peace in region


Wars of Muslims between each other were much more bloody than wars with Israel: Iran-Iraq, Yemen, Lebanon, Kurds, Algeria, Darfur, Bagladesh, Indonesia...


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## 500

Menes said:


> I don't have to provide any sources, since your own Israeli historians and politicians blame PM Meir for the outbreak of the war, because of her rejection of Sadat's initiatives, that's a common knowledge.
> 
> You're doing your best to derail my thread BTW.


I brought non Israeli source saying that Israel asked direct talks before the war. While Egypt wanted indirect talks and silly conditions like 90 mile withdrawal and limiting Jewish immigration.


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## Canaan

500 said:


> Canaan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There were 24,000 Jews, thats almost 6%.
> 
> 
> 
> it depends on what study you choose to citate. we can agree on it being between 4-6% I don't mind, the point is that jews was a minority in a land populated by others.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I repeat again, not Jewish land =! Arab land. Because most of the lands were belong to Ottoman Empire. Also lost of lands were belonged to churches and western countries. Also most of Arab lands were belong to foreign landlors and not to poor peasants.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I repeat, and advice you to refer to recognized studies not personal oppinions. Although some of what you say is correct, the proportions you mention are way out of order. The fact is that Jews prior to the 1947 partition plan never owned more than 6% which is in stark contrast to the zionist myths and lies.
> 
> I also believe that the partition plan is void, since it was created in opposition to the mandate's stated aim by the league of nations. One, is that Britain didn't own Palestine and was never giving anything but the political control of it. The other thing is that the it clearly states that the mandate should work for the local populations wishes, which as we all know didn't happen. Instead zionist colonialists were given 50% of historic Palestine for free, and the rest was taken by force.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These are absurd numbers. If you want to know real ethnic cleansing I can show u:
> 
> In 1850 there were 6.6 mln Irish in Ireland and 0.35 mln Arabs in Palestine.
> 
> Today there are 4.5 mln Irish in Ireland and 5 mln Arabs in Palestine.
> 
> As you can see, since mid of 19th century Itish population in Ireland dropped 1.5 times while Arab population in Palestine grew 14 times.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You can't compare Ireland to Palestine, since Ireland was not taken over by another people. Most Irish left the Potato famine, and migrated West. Palestinians didn't migrate out of economic reasons, but fled because of war.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are confusing lkand oiwnership with sovereignty.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You confuse political control, with ownership and the right to donate populated land that is not yours to a foreign people for political reasons.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Palestine is nothing but Hebrew name of this region. It is not a country.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> "Palestine" is not Hebrew, as the hebrew term is Peleshet equal to Philistia in english.
> Numerous terms and names have been used throughout history by different parties to describe the same, the land between the river and the sea, with its people.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As I said before, 100,000 mln people became refugees in 20th century alone. Among them 850 K Jews from Arab countries.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Still it doesn't make it ok. Not all 850k jews were refugees, the majority were immigrants to the newly created state, just ask some of your yemeni and moroccan jews.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1.5 mln of Arabs in Israel dont mind to live in Israel.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> unless you have asked them all, I doubt that claim.
> Israel is the lesser of evils. I will bet my right arm, that they would prefer to see Israel gone.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So where is that "occupation"?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Are you seriously denying that there is any occupation?
> Ladies and gentlemen we have reached a new extreme in israeli denial.
> Well let's ask the majority of the world's population whether there is an occupation or not.
> Dude I saw the physical presence of the IDF and settlers on and around the WB so how in the world can you claim something so outrageous.?
> thank God no body agrees with you
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

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## Canaan

500 said:


> I repeat, Arab population *grew 12 times* since the beginning of Zionism, what extermination are u talking about?
> 
> 
> 
> Of course there is a growth in population since most people do in fact reproduce. Ethnic cleansing is not only about killing people, which you are experts in, but also to force people out via different ways of pressure, physically and mentally.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yep, Europeans in new wolrd were total aliens, Jews lived in Palestine since 4000 years ago.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Palestinians lived there even longer. Before judaism arrived in Palestine, it was a functioning state called canaan. There was a civilization there 6000-7000 years before the first Israelite arrived.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In time of Jesus Palestine population was 2-3 millions, when Zionism started it was only 400 K. Now its back to millions.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> according to biblical narratives. to my knowledge no scientific evidence support that number.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jews are indegenous population of Middle East. They lived in Palestine thousands years before the Arabs. Arabs got 99.9% of Middle East with all resources, Jews want only 0.1% of deserted land.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Middle Eastern Jews are indigenous to the arabian peninsula and mesopetamia, not Palestine. The great majority, Ashkenazim, are almost exclusively indigenous to Europe not the Middle East.
> Palestinians are ethnically not arabs. In fact revised history proves that a great part of Palestinians are islamized jews, christians and canaanites/philistines, natives of this land, contrary to many jews, who are judaized ethiopians, europeans, slavs, berbers, arabs, khazars etc.
Click to expand...


----------



## 500

Canaan said:


> it depends on what study you choose to citate. we can agree on it being between 4-6% I don't mind, the point is that jews was a minority in a land populated by others.


Palestine was so sparsely populated that there is no much point to talk about majority.



> I repeat, and advice you to refer to recognized studies not personal oppinions. Although some of what you say is correct, the proportions you mention are way out of order. The fact is that Jews prior to the 1947 partition plan never owned more than 6% which is in stark contrast to the zionist myths and lies.


I am talking about facts, most of the lands were government lands.



> I also believe that the partition plan is void, since it was created in opposition to the mandate's stated aim by the league of nations. One, is that Britain didn't own Palestine and was never giving anything but the political control of it. The other thing is that the it clearly states that the mandate should work for the local populations wishes, which as we all know didn't happen. Instead zionist colonialists were given 50% of historic Palestine for free, and the rest was taken by force.


One of the main reasons why League of Nations gave mandate to Britain is to establish Jewish national home there.

As for "historic Palestine" - there is not such thing. Palestine ius nothing but product of Sices Picot agreements + Jewish influence. If not the Jews, Galilee would go to Lebanon.



> You can't compare Ireland to Palestine, since Ireland was not taken over by another people. Most Irish left the Potato famine, and migrated West. Palestinians didn't migrate out of economic reasons, but fled because of war.


Thats what I am talking, Jewish settlement did not happen at expence of Arab population, on contrary, since Jews settled there Arabs rapidly grew.



> You confuse political control, with ownership and the right to donate populated land that is not yours to a foreign people for political reasons.


You talked first about land ownership and later switched to political control.



> "Palestine" is not Hebrew, as the hebrew term is Peleshet equal to Philistia in english.


Hebrew Bible if first source where root PLST came out. And Hebrew is only language where word PLST has meaning.



> Still it doesn't make it ok. Not all 850k jews were refugees, the majority were immigrants to the newly created state, just ask some of your yemeni and moroccan jews.


99,9% dont migrate just suddenly. They were pesrecuted and left leafing most of their property, iften all property.



> unless you have asked them all, I doubt that claim.
> Israel is the lesser of evils. I will bet my right arm, that they would prefer to see Israel gone.


I never seen any Israeli ARab who would like to live in Palestinian state or in Syria or Egypt or Jordan over Israel.



> Are you seriously denying that there is any occupation?
> Ladies and gentlemen we have reached a new extreme in israeli denial.
> Well let's ask the majority of the world's population whether there is an occupation or not.
> Dude I saw the physical presence of the IDF and settlers on and around the WB so how in the world can you claim something so outrageous.?
> thank God no body agrees with you


Is WB they have wide authonomy. Once they recognize Israel they wil get a state.


----------



## 500

Canaan said:


> Of course there is a growth in population since most people do in fact reproduce. Ethnic cleansing is not only about killing people, which you are experts in, but also to force people out via different ways of pressure, physically and mentally.


Problem that under the Arab rule Palestine population did not grew, on contrary it decreased.



> Palestinians lived there even longer. Before judaism arrived in Palestine, it was a functioning state called canaan. There was a civilization there 6000-7000 years before the first Israelite arrived.


Canaan is nothing but another name from Hebrew Bible. There was never nation which called itself Canaan. 

Today "Palestinians" are misxture of Arab migrants from all around. For example most of coastial Arabs are migrants from Egypt, Galilee Arabs are mostly migrants from Lebanon and Syria, Hebron ispopulated by Arab tribes from Hejaz, Bethlehem by Arabs from Yemen, Negev is populated by Bedouins from Arabian peninsula...



> according to biblical narratives. to my knowledge no scientific evidence support that number.


No its according to historians:

Demographics of Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> Middle Eastern Jews are indigenous to the arabian peninsula and mesopetamia, not Palestine. The great majority, Ashkenazim, are almost exclusively indigenous to Europe not the Middle East.
> Palestinians are ethnically not arabs. In fact revised history proves that a great part of Palestinians are islamized jews, christians and canaanites/philistines, natives of this land, contrary to many jews, who are judaized ethiopians, europeans, slavs, berbers, arabs, khazars etc.


All Jews except ethiopian have very close genetics:


----------



## Canaan

500 said:


> Palestine was so sparsely populated that there is no much point to talk about majority.
> 
> 
> 
> not entirely true. The population density exceeds a lot of the world's nations, and hence your statement is void, besides, we are still discussing that 6% out of a 100% is not much, meaning if I have a cake, and you only have a small slice, how on earth can you claim the entire cake?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am talking about facts, most of the lands were government lands.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Useless, to argue with you. I repeat, the mandate didn't give ownership to Britain of the land, only political control, why is it hard to understand.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One of the main reasons why League of Nations gave mandate to Britain is to establish Jewish national home there.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Nope, the stated aim, if you bothered to read the formulation, was to create a state for the indigenous people according to their wishes.
> On the other hand, Britain had already promised to create a jewish nation there through the declaration made by Lord Balfour,not the british people, inspite the promise to arabs about independence. Last time I checked Balfour didn't own Palestine, nor did the British, and hence in my oppinion the mandate and partition are void since they are established on a corrupt base. And hence, everybody is in their right to change this situation through all means.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As for "historic Palestine" - there is not such thing. Palestine ius nothing but product of Sices Picot agreements + Jewish influence. If not the Jews, Galilee would go to Lebanon.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I am sorry, but academics tend to disagree. And how is it that the Galilee would go to lebanon? for me rather it goes to lebanon than russians and poles who have nothing to do there in the first place.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thats what I am talking, Jewish settlement did not happen at expence of Arab population, on contrary, since Jews settled there Arabs rapidly grew.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Sir, please concentrate, we where just talking about how jews multiplied hundreds of times compared to the 12x growth in arab population, and control the entire land. Where is the logic in what you say? and why are there more than half a million settlers in WB expanding on a daily basis?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You talked first about land ownership and later switched to political control.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> yes, landownership=palestinians, political control=british mandate want me to spell it out more?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hebrew Bible if first source where root PLST came out. And Hebrew is only language where word PLST has meaning.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Nope ancient egyptian texts predate the bible. Besides I don't care if it was called Mars, the land is the same and people the same. Italy is not called Rome anymore. Names change.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 99,9% dont migrate just suddenly. They were pesrecuted and left leafing most of their property, iften all property.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Some were persecuted because of zionist occupation of Palestine, most left voluntarily. That's in the words of your own politicians like former Knesset speaker Yisrael Yeshayahu, former government minister Shlomo Hillel, and politician Ran Cohen who state that they left their country of origin for Israel to pursue Zionist aspirations and not as refugees fleeing Arab persecution
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I never seen any Israeli ARab who would like to live in Palestinian state or in Syria or Egypt or Jordan over Israel.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Again the lesser of the evils. I would bet anything, if you ask them whether they would like to live under israeli control or see Israel gone, they would chose the latter. Israel for them was not a blessing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is WB they have wide authonomy. Once they recognize Israel they wil get a state
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They only control 60% of the 11% remaining, and are rounded up by the apartheid wall and 500,000 settlers, have no control on the ground, resources, airspace or borders. WB is dissected with over 700 check points, and no one can get in our out without the approval of the IDF. So what BS autonomy are you talking about. Besides Israel was recognized in 1988 so what in the world are you talking about? Israel is yet to recognize the palestinians
Click to expand...


----------



## Nishan

Canaan said:


> 500 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Canaan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are you seriously denying that there is any occupation?
> Ladies and gentlemen we have reached a new extreme in israeli denial.
> Well let's ask the majority of the world's population whether there is an occupation or not.
> Dude I saw the physical presence of the IDF and settlers on and around the WB so how in the world can you claim something so outrageous.?
> thank God no body agrees with you
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Israelis reached the highest levels out of the fact . . They imagine that they have become part of the Middle East . . Now it's there who thinks that there is no Israeli occupation . . Tomorrow the Israelis will demand liberalization of Egypt's occupation of Egypt . . And the liberation of Syria from the Syrian occupation . . .How much does this pathetic
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

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## Canaan

500 said:


> Problem that under the Arab rule Palestine population did not grew, on contrary it decreased.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would like some numbers here, since according to my knowledge there was never an official track of the number of inhabitants until the 18th century or so.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Canaan is nothing but another name from Hebrew Bible. There was never nation which called itself Canaan.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> haha, that's ridiculous. You are contradicting the world's best historians and researchers. And now you want to tell me that Jerusalem was also founded by the jews.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Today "Palestinians" are misxture of Arab migrants from all around. For example most of coastial Arabs are migrants from Egypt, Galilee Arabs are mostly migrants from Lebanon and Syria, Hebron ispopulated by Arab tribes from Hejaz, Bethlehem by Arabs from Yemen, Negev is populated by Bedouins from Arabian peninsula...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Several genetic studies can prove you wrong. Let's ask Ariella Oppenheim, who is one of the leading Israeli geneticist appears to match historical accounts that Arab Israelis and Palestinians, together as the one same population, represent modern "descendants of a core population that lived in the area since prehistoric times", albeit religiously first Christianized then largely Islamized, and all eventually culturally Arabized. Referring to those of the Muslim faith more specifically, it reaffirmed that Palestinian "Muslim Arabs are descended from Christians and Jews who lived in the southern Levant, a region that includes Israel, Sinai and part of Jordan." Geneticist Michael Hammer praised "the study for 'focusing in detail on the Jewish and Palestinian populations.'"
> I can refer to more studies, made in spain and the US, but honestly I don't have the time. You can do it on your own.
> 
> 
> 
> No its according to historians:
> 
> Demographics of Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> All Jews except ethiopian have very close genetics:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are mixing things up here.
> First send ethiopians home, they don't belong there.
> Second, upwards 70&#37; of the jews arriving from Russia are recent converts through the mother and hence are not semetic and should also be sent home.
> Third, a large part of the Ashkenazim are white slavs, some have traces of their semetic ancestry through the Y chromosom, many don't, send them home.
> So in your oppinion, an Eskimo that converts to Judaism is more entitled to migrate to Israel than a palestinian whose ancestors have been there for thousands of years.
Click to expand...


----------



## Nishan

500 said:


> Today "Palestinians" are misxture of Arab migrants from all around. For example most of coastial Arabs are migrants from Egypt, Galilee Arabs are mostly migrants from Lebanon and Syria, Hebron ispopulated by Arab tribes from Hejaz, Bethlehem by Arabs from Yemen, Negev is populated by Bedouins from Arabian peninsula...



First:

67.1% of Israeli Jews born in Israel
22.6% of Isreali Jews born in Europe & America
5.9% of Isreal Jews born in Africa
4.2% of Israel Jews BORN in Asia

Second:

20% of Israelis with dual citizenship, mostly US-Israeli citizenship

Third:

The largest gathering Jews in the world is New York City with an estimated two million.

Forth:

The Population of *PALESTINE *from the Dead Sea at the East to the Mediterranean at the west

*Arab & Jews in Palestine at 2006*

*The Population Total in 2006*






*The Population Percentage in 2006*






*Arab & Jews in Palestine at 2050*

*The Population Total in 2050*






*The Population Percentage in 2050*







the resources of these figures are:

- Israeli Central Bureau of Statistices
- United Nations World Population Prospects


----------



## Menes

500 said:


> I brought non Israeli source saying that Israel asked direct talks before the war. While Egypt wanted indirect talks and silly conditions like 90 mile withdrawal and limiting Jewish immigration.


Yet most historians and Israelis themselves blame Meir not Sadat.

"Most studies of the attempts to reach a political solution to the EgyptianIsraeli dispute between the wars of 1967 and 1973 focus predominantly on the Jarring mission (196871), the Rogers plan (196970) and Sadat's plan for a partial agreement in the Canal sector (early 1971). However, as new archival documents show, the most important diplomatic initiative during this period was Sadat's proposal for a comprehensive settlement of the EgyptianIsraeli dispute, which was secretly submitted to Kissinger in February 1973. Despite the fact that it met most of Israel's requirements regarding peace, Sadat's proposal was rejected by Golda Meir, who refused to return the territories occupied in 1967. Meir's stand did not change even when, in April 1973, Israel's leadership concluded that the only alternative to the diplomatic process was war, which would break out soon. By making this decision, Golda Meir and her colleagues opted for war rather than peace and turned the October 1973 Yom Kippur War into a war of choice."
-_Last Chance to Avoid War: Sadat's Peace Initiative of February 1973 and its Failure_ by Uri Bar-Joseph

He is Israeli historian BTW..


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## Menes

> Egyptian crew of Soviet 82mm mortar wearing the special load carrying assault jerkin which was issued to most of the first wave across the canal.









> Egyptians crew of a 7.62mm Soviet Goryunov machine gun, license-built in Egypt, in an emplacement overlooking one of the passes in the southern Sinai liberated in 1973.

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## 500

Canaan said:


> not entirely true. The population density exceeds a lot of the world's nations, and hence your statement is void, besides,


In time of Jesus 2-3 milion people lived in Palestine.
Before Zionism - 400 K.
Today - 10 millions. 

Thus it was very sparcely populated. 



> Useless, to argue with you. I repeat, the mandate didn't give ownership to Britain of the land, only political control, why is it hard to understand.


You are the one who mixes up two things. For example in Israel and in areas A there is Israeli political control, but still many lands belong to Arabs. 

There are also government lands they belong to those who control this land politically.



> Nope, the stated aim, if you bothered to read the formulation, was to create a state for the indigenous people according to their wishes.


I suggest you to read League of Nations Mandate text:



> The Council of the League of Nations:
> 
> Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have agreed, for the purpose of giving effect to the provisions of Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations, to entrust to a Mandatory selected by the said Powers the administration of the territory of Palestine, which formerly belonged to the Turkish Empire, within such boundaries as may be fixed by them; and
> 
> Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have also agreed that the Mandatory should be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2nd, 1917, by the Government of His Britannic Majesty, and adopted by the said Powers, in favor of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non*Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country; and
> 
> Whereas recognition has thereby been given to the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine and to the grounds for reconstituting their national home in that country;





> I am sorry, but academics tend to disagree.


I am sorry but they tend to agree. There was not any Canaanite nation, its mixture of people that usually fught each other.



> And how is it that the Galilee would go to lebanon?


I just noted that there is no such thing as "historical Palestine". Arabs called the whole region Ash Sham - or greater Syria. Today Israel is only 6% of Greater Syria territory.



> Sir, please concentrate, we where just talking about how jews multiplied hundreds of times compared to the 12x growth in arab population, and control the entire land. Where is the logic in what you say? and why are there more than half a million settlers in WB expanding on a daily basis?


I just say that Jewish growth is not at expence of Arab. For example in N Ireland Protestan majority became at expence of Catholic.

Do u know, for example than until 1980-es there was lage Arab emigration from West Bank and gaza, because there were not jobs. But then Jewish settlers come there and created lots of jobs and emigration stopped. 



> Nope ancient egyptian texts predate the bible.


In Egyotian textx there are people called P*R*ST. Many hystrornains say that PRST and PLST are same but no one knows for sure. 



> Some were persecuted because of zionist occupation of Palestine, most left voluntarily. That's in the words of your own politicians like former Knesset speaker Yisrael Yeshayahu, former government minister Shlomo Hillel, and politician Ran Cohen who state that they left their country of origin for Israel to pursue Zionist aspirations and not as refugees fleeing Arab persecution


Why Turkish or Iranian Jews did not leave in 99.9% numbers? And wast majority of Palestinian refugees who left never saw an Israeli soldier.



> Again the lesser of the evils. I would bet anything, if you ask them whether they would like to live under israeli control or see Israel gone, they would chose the latter. Israel for them was not a blessing.


So they want Israeli citizenship and see Israel gone 

Look, I dont want to keep anyone under occupation. If Galilee Arabs will want to create their independent state or join Palestine or Syria or watever - they are most welcome, I dont mind.



> They only control 60%


So occupation is not that harsh?  How many percent they controled during Jordanian or Ottoman rule?



> Besides Israel was recognized in 1988 so what in the world are you talking about? Israel is yet to recognize the palestinians


If they recognbize Israel in 1967 borders with minor changes, they will get the rest.


----------



## 500

Canaan said:


> I would like some numbers here, since according to my knowledge there was never an official track of the number of inhabitants until the 18th century or so.








Demographics of Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> Several genetic studies can prove you wrong. Let's ask Ariella Oppenheim


Funny that her genetical study showed relation between Palestinians and Jews and u are trying to prove that Jews are alien to region 



> First send ethiopians home, they don't belong there.


There are many black Palestinians too. Lets send them back to Africa. 



> Second, upwards 70% of the jews arriving from Russia are recent converts through the mother and hence are not semetic and should also be sent home.


Nonsense. The ratio is oposite. I personally know two Palestinian Arabs who have European mothers, they also should be expelled because of it?



> Third, a large part of the Ashkenazim are white slavs, some have traces of their semetic ancestry through the Y chromosom, many don't, send them home.


Average European Jew is closely related to average Moroccan Jew for example. Anyway today most of Jewish couples are mixed.


----------



## sergente rehan

There will be no peace btw Mulsims and Jews till the end of the world. We have tried it in the past and i'm not talking about israel, Palestine or arab nations.....you have to read the entire Muslim history....from past 600 and plus years we are trying to do peace agreements but jews always stab in your back. This is the reality so we have to face these facts.


----------



## 500

sergente rehan said:


> There will be no peace btw Mulsims and Jews till the end of the world. We have tried it in the past and i'm not talking about israel, Palestine or arab nations.....you have to read the entire Muslim history....from past 600 and plus years we are trying to do peace agreements but jews always stab in your back. This is the reality so we have to face these facts.


What backstabbing are you talking about?


----------



## Menes

> T-55 tanks with 100mm main guns fitted with British-made Xenon infra-red projectors.









> T-62 crew of Egyptian 3rd Army photographed following the cease-fire near Kabrit.









> Egyptian T-55 drives through one of the breaches in the sand ramparts of the Bar-Lev Line.

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## Menes

Rare footage of Egyptian T-54/55 and T-62 tanks during the 1973 war..

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## Menes

> Rebounding from 1967 disaster to strong 1973 showing. _Aviation Week & Space Technology. Vol 102. June 30, 1975_.

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## Canaan

*500*
We have two totally opposite views here, and are not going to find common ground.
So unless you want to discuss this forever, let's leave it here and instead see what the future will bring.

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## 500

Equipment of the sides. Left - Egypt/Syria, right - Israel.

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## Menes

> Unusual MiG-21 gun camera sequence shows progress of dogfight with Israeli air force Mirage. MiG-21 is on the Mirage&#8217;s tail in lower left at start of combat and follows Mirage in steep climbing turn to score hits with 23-mm cannon. Mirage fuel catches fire as Israeli pilot continues in steep climb. This was one of 22 gun camera confirmed air victories by a single Egyptian air force fighter regiment.

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## Menes

> Egyptian air force MiG-21 (note air speed boom lower left) makes a strafing attack on the Israeli air field at Ras Nasrani at the extreme southern end of Sinai near Sharm al Sheik in photos above. Attack was made as part of opening Egyptian offensive on afternoon of Oct. 6, 1973. Note three Israeli air force Mirage fighters parked(arrows along taxiway in the open (above). MiG-21 gun camera sight centers on two Mirages scrambling down runway for takeoff (circles) while bombs from other EAF strike planes explode on airfield.


----------



## Menes

> Sukhoi Su-7 fighter-bombers attack an Israeli armored force logistics park in the Sinai early in the October, 1973, War. Note fuel tank trailers parked in revetments and armored vehicles on the move under attack.


----------



## Menes

> Egyptian air force MiG-21 gun camera film shows attacks on Israeli air force F-4 Phantoms during air battles over Nile Delta. MiG-21 gun sight is shown in circle of blip swith dot in center. Bomb-carrying Israeli Phantom aircraft were primary target of MiG-21 interceptors during attacks on Nile Delta airfields and Port Said.


----------



## 500

Fights on Golan:











Destroyed tanks, Syrian T tanks near Israeli Centurions:











More destroyed Syrian tanks:






Captured Syrian tanks:


----------



## 500

Centurions in Sinai:





Destroyed Israeli tanks at Chinese Farms:





Destroyed Patton near destroyed T at Chinese Farms:





Crossing















Africa:


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## BATMAN

500, Is it Suez canal crossing in pict. 4-5-6?
In the last picture... is it Swiss oerlikon anti aircraft gun?


----------



## 500

BATMAN said:


> 500, Is it Suez canal crossing in pict. 4-5-6?


yes.



> In the last picture... is it Swiss oerlikon anti aircraft gun?


I cant see any anti aircraft gun. M48 tank in front and behind it a jeep with recoilless cannon.


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## Menes

500 said:


> Destroyed tanks, Syrian T tanks near Israeli Centurions:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Destroyed Israeli tanks at Chinese Farms:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Destroyed Patton near destroyed T at Chinese Farms:


Interesting..

I always wonder how could tanks came that close during the fight!! 

Night battles were intense in Golan and Deversoire, Dayan visited the field that afternoon, was visibly disturbed by the destruction. Reshef commented to the minister of defense, Look at this valley of death. To that, Dayan responded, What you people have done here!

Dayan also expressed the grief of the battle as he recalled Chinese Farm in his memoirs: "I am no novice at war or battle scenes, but I have never seen such a sight. Here was a vast field of slaughter stretching as far as the eye could see."








> The ferocity of the fighting during the Battle of Gala village (Chinese farm), is highlighted by these burn-out wrecks of a T-55 and an M-48 Megach, which are at little more than a barrel length apart.


----------



## Menes

Collection of Israeli personal photos during the war by Harvard..

VIA Record

Enjoy

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## Menes

> Destroyed IDF armour in Suez city, ambushed by civil resistance and local militias near Arbain police station, during the battle of Suez.

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## Menes

> IDF tanks destroyed near Ferdan during major Israeli counter-attack on October 8, 1973.

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## Menes

> Egyptian soldiers celebrate victory over IDF tanks following the battle of Suez.

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## Menes

Egyptian Armed Forces uniform during and after the war..

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## Menes

> IDF Prisoners captured by the Egyptian Army during the war.


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## Menes

Some pics scanned from old Egyptian papers..


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## Nishan

Menes said:


>



dear brother, nomber one in the picture mentioned (comando nicosia 1978) can you explane that please


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## Menes

Nishan said:


> dear brother, nomber one in the picture mentioned (comando nicosia 1978) can you explane that please


It refers to the special task force _Unit 777_, which was involved in Larnaca incident in 1978, when Palestinian extremists assassinated the Egyptian minister of culture Youssef el Sebai, and took the Egyptian delegate as hostages. Sadat immediately ordered the unit to free the hostages and capture the criminals, but as they landed in Larnaca, the Cypriot army opened fire on them, killing 12 Egyptian commandos, injuring another 15, and damaging their C-130, after nearly an hour of heavy clashes between Cypriot National Guard and Egyptian commandos, who lacked any form of cover. 

Egyptian raid on Larnaca International Airport - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Menes

Larnaca incident is still mysterious.


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## Nishan

Menes said:


> It refers to the special task force _Unit 777_, which was involved in Larnaca incident in 1978, when Palestinian extremists assassinated the Egyptian minister of culture Youssef el Sebai, and took the Egyptian delegate as hostages. Sadat immediately ordered the unit to free the hostages and capture the criminals, but as they landed in Larnaca, the Cypriot army opened fire on them, killing 12 Egyptian commandos, injuring another 15, and damaging their C-130, after nearly an hour of heavy clashes between Cypriot National Guard and Egyptian commandos, who lacked any form of cover.
> 
> Egyptian raid on Larnaca International Airport - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Thank you for the clarification . .

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## Menes

Nishan said:


> Thank you for the clarification . .



You're welcome bro

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## Menes

Some declassified documents..

*Dayan to Golda: If we can't evacuate, we'll leave wounded behind
On 37th anniversary of Yom Kippur War, Ynet releases minutes of top secret cabinet meeting held after first day of fighting. Heated debate depicts Israel's dire situation. Defense minister says Arabs looking to 'conquer Israel, finish Jews off'; Golda Meir: They smelled blood. IDF chief presents military options*

Roi Mandel, Yaron Druckman
10.04.10, 18:50

October 7, 1973. 2:50 pm. A little more than a day after the outbreak of the Yom Kippur War, then-prime minister Golda Meir and her cabinet hold a dramatic meeting. Then-defense minister Moshe Dayan discusses the fall of IDF positions, one after the other, in the Sinai Peninsula. "The canal line is lost," he says, and suggests a withdrawal to the Isthmus line, some 30 kilometers (about 19 miles) from the canal, while leaving behind the injured soldiers who cannot be evacuated. "Where we can evacuate  we will evacuate. In places we can't evacuate  we will leave the wounded. Those who make it  make it. If they decide to surrender, they'll surrender. We have to tell them, 'We can't reach you. Try to bust through or surrender.'"

The meeting's minutes, which were classified as "top secret," are being published for the first time by Ynet after being obtained from the State Archives to mark the war's 37th anniversary. 

Dayan predicted that the international community would mock Israel and refer to it as a "paper tiger" after the country failed to sustain its initial attack despite having a military edge. Meir responded by saying, "I dont understand one thing  I thought we would begin hitting them as soon as they cross the canal. What happened?"

Dayan said, "We lost tanks. There was artillery, our tanks were hit. The planes weren't able to approach because of the missiles. A thousand artillery barrels allowed the tanks to cross and prevented us from getting close. The planning and methodology was Russian. Three years of preparation."

Dayan spoke of hundreds of fatalities and numerous prisoners of war, and admitted he was wrong in his assessment of the enemy's objectives. "This is not the time for soul-searching. I underestimated the enemy's strength and miscalculated our forces' ability. The Arab fighters are much improved; they have many weapons. They hit our tanks with their personal rifles. The missiles serve as an umbrella, which our planes have a hard time bursting. I dont know if a preemptive strike would have changed the picture significantly," he said.

"They (Arabs) want to go for the entire Land of Israel," Dayan said. Golda responded, "This is the second round since 1948." "It is a battle for the Land of Israel," Dayan declared, "The Arabs wont stop the war, and if they agree to a ceasefire  they may resume (the fighting). If we withdraw from the Golan Heights, it wont solve anything."

Golda added: "They have no reason not to continue. They smelled blood." Dayan said, "To conquer Israel, finish off the Jews."

Dayan continued with his pessimistic tone. "I'm certain that Jordan will join the fighting. We can't afford not to be prepared. A minimal level of preparation is required. We must prepare a force against a Jordanian attempt to invade the West Bank. They might allow terrorists to operate as well."

Golda suggested putting then-US Secretary of State Henry Kissinger into action, and Dayan said Israel should purchase 300 tanks form the Americans, adding, "We'll need more planes." Golda spoke of a tense meeting with IDF chief of staff at the time, David "Dado" Elazar. "Dado was sad," she said, "He said he hopes tonight will be a turning point."

Dayan concluded his briefing with a harsh statement, possibly alluding to the need to use other means to curb the threat. "The amount of weapons they have is effective. Our moral advantage is not enough in the face of such (an amount). The numbers are very crucial. Perhaps there are other ideas as to how we should operate in this situation. "

About an hour after the cabinet meeting began, IDF chief Dado entered the room. "We are facing a fateful decision. There is no room for mistakes here." He said the army had three options:


Deploy two divisions along a temporary line of defense, from which the army will launch counter-attacks. "I am not certain we will be able to hold the line and then attack."
Solidify IDF positions along the Isthmus line. "This line is exacting a heavy price."
"This option is risky. I consulted with members of the General Staff. They suggested we attack the canal and move forward." According to the plan, Avraham Eden (Bren) and Arik Sharon's divisions would cross the Suez Canal and destroy enemy forces. "It's a gamble, because these are the only two divisions between the canal and Tel Aviv. If we the attack on the canal is unsuccessful, we are left with three broken divisions, then the Iraqis and Algerians come and in two-three days the war is inside the Land of Israel."
Dado suggested a counter-attack, "Not on the canal, but on the concentration of (enemy) forces that have already crossed. Perhaps before morning comes, with 200-300 tanks and from the air, we can try to break the force that has crossed and then deploy along the line again. If it works, we're at a good starting point; if not, it's not fatal. We'll have enough strength to withdraw to the passages."

Minister Yigal Alon spoke of bombing deep in enemy territory, but Dayan estimated that bombing Damascus would not affect fighting at the front line. "We may hit oil, electricity, but nothing more. Every attack means more casualties," he said. 

Dayan to Golda: If we can't evacuate, we'll leave wounded behind - Israel News, Ynetnews


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## Menes

*Newly released documents: Division and disarray on eve of Yom Kippur War
Documents attest to the existence of an intelligence source who warned of an imminent attack, enabling Israel's leadership to consider a preemptive strike.*

By Jonathan Lis
Published 00:57 06.10.10

Following the release on Monday of minutes of prime minister Golda Meir's meeting with her war cabinet on the second day of the 1973 Yom Kippur War, the state archives released Tuesday the minutes of eight additional meetings that the prime minister held during the war's first four days.

The documents provide a rare look at the military and diplomatic efforts made just hours before the Arab attack on Israel. They also attest to the existence of an intelligence source who provided credible information of an imminent attack, enabling Israel's political leadership to consider a preemptive strike on Egypt and Syria.

IDF chief of staff David Elazar suggested during the meetings "When there are skirmishes we tell the truth, but during wartime we must not tell the truth."

The documents show the close ties between King Hussein of Jordan and Israel's leadership on the eve of the war. They also again reveal Israel's complacency regarding the Arab armies' military might.

On the day the war broke out, Yom Kippur, the chief of military intelligence, Eli Zeira, was still expressing the belief that Egyptian president Anwar Sadat would not start another war with Israel. Despite that view, and against the recommendations of then-defense minister Moshe Dayan, Meir decided to mobilize 200,000 reserve soldiers so as to provide a substantial boost to the military in the event that war broke out.

Meir and senior defense officials also worked to procure additional military hardware, in the form of 40 fighter jet and 400 tanks, from the United States. The prime minister even considered a secret meeting with U.S. president Richard Nixon without the knowledge of the cabinet, in a effort to convince the American leader to come to Israel's assistance.

October 6, 1973, Yom Kippur, 8:05 A.M.

Meir convened an emergency meeting in Tel Aviv with senior defense officials. Six hours before the outbreak of the war, Israeli preparations for a general offensive by Arab armies finally began. The warnings of the intelligence source were being taken seriously, as was the fact that the Russians were pulling families out of Egypt and Syria, a sign of approaching war. But U.S. intelligence was not predicting war.

Minister Yisrael Galili said a source had suggested the war could be prevented by leaking information that would reach the Egyptians and Syrians, so they would knew their plans for attack had been discovered.

Jordan also preoccupied those in attendance, because it wasn't clear if the kingdom would join in the assault on Israel.

Initially, Meir deliberated between Elazar's call for a full mobilization of the reserves and Dayan's request for a limited call-up.

"If you approve a major mobilization of the reserves, I won't resign," Dayan said. But with an eye to international reaction, he added, "A full mobilization before even one shot is fired - they will say right away that we are the aggressors."

At 9:20 A.M., a full mobilization was approved.

October 7, 1973

A discussion at the Prime Minister's Office centered on how to enlist American support at the United Nations and head off a cease-fire that would hurt Israel. Meir suggested putting together a list of requests.

The forum considered presenting U.S. secretary of state Henry Kissinger with a partial, distorted picture exaggerating Israel's poor situation to win the Nixon administration's support. Meir rejected the suggestion out of hand.

"We should telegraph him the details; he should get the real picture," she said. "We can't play hide and seek with him."

Minister Yisrael Galili asked in response, "Do we sell him the fact that we've moved out of the populated areas?" Meir replied, "I don't object to us saying, there's also risk to populated areas ... I want to give him the real picture. I'm not under the impression the

situation is doomed ... We should tell it to him convincingly. Tonight was a bad night."

11:50 P.M.

A meeting of the ministers with senior defense officials. Yitzhak Rabin returned from a tour of the southern front and told the meeting, "The whole issue of the dead and wounded is complicated. There are 400 wounded and 80 killed. [GOC Southern Command Shmuel] Gorodish estimates there will be 150 to 200 killed before the counteroffensive." Rabin said he had no information on Egyptian losses.

October 8, 7:50 P.M.

Maj. Gen. Haim Bar-Lev and minister Yigal Allon report to the prime minister after a tour of both fronts. The Israeli forces' situation is beginning to improve, while the enemy forces are beginning to suffer serious damage.

"What they achieved today as compared to yesterday is enormous," Allon said. "The front was breached yesterday. If the Syrians had been more daring, they'd have made significant gains."

Bar-Lev explained the Egyptian and Syrian successes as being partly due to technological superiority. "Both have the new Soviet tank plus infrared," he said. "They have an advantage there. On the first night we were surprised; we only knew they had it in theory ... Today we know about it and take it into account."

9:50 A.M.

Elazar asked Meir's permission to attack four Egyptian targets along the coast. Meir agreed.

"These are good targets," Elazar said. "Make them worry. We need to press them. After all, they too are only human."

October 9

Dayan voiced confidence in the Israeli forces' ability to overcome Syria and asked permission to bomb targets in Damascus. "There's an order: No retreat on the Golan," he said. "Fighting to the death and not moving ... What I'm suggesting and asking for approval of [is] bombings inside the city."

Meir asked whether he meant within the city itself, and Dayan confirmed this. He said the IDF can't muster a column to march on Damascus even as a decoy, but bombing in and around the city could "break the Syrians" - though he conceded, "you can't say the population wouldn't be hurt."

"Why would it necessarily break them?" Meir asked. "Would a bombing here break us?

Elazar replied: "A heavy bombing here, on Reading and Ramat Aviv, would seriously disrupt things."

Meir suggested leaving on a secret, 24-hour mission to Washington, without informing the cabinet, to personally explain the gravity of the situation to Nixon. "I'd like to suggest a crazy idea: What if me and an appropriate military official go to Washington for 24 hours? ... Maybe he'll say he can offer nothing but sympathy. Maybe his personal pride will be roused by what they [the Russians] are doing to him ... I have the feeling that I'm at a point where I need to talk to him, and a feeling that he will understand."

Newly released documents: Division and disarray on eve of Yom Kippur War - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News


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## Menes

*Did Israel ever consider using nuclear weapons?
Newly declassified documents shine a light on the deliberations of Israel's leaders during the early days of the Yom Kippur War in 1973.*

By Yossi Melman
02:12 07.10.10

Media outlets around the world have reported that state archive documents declassified this week showed that Israel's leadership considered using "drastic means" during the 1973 Yom Kippur War.

On October 9, a day after Egypt repulsed Israel's counterattack on the southern front, prime minister Golda Meir convened a top-level discussion in her office.

The outlook was grim. Troop losses were high, and ammunition and weapons stores were running out. At one point, Meir blurted out that she had a "crazy idea."

That idea, however, was not a nuclear attack, but many believe a lightning visit to Washington to meet with U.S. president Richard Nixon. The visit was to be so secret that Meir advocated not even informing the cabinet. Defense minister Moshe Dayan supported her plan, but it was never implemented. 

At the same meeting, officials also discussed the option of having the air force bomb strategic sites in Damascus.

Was the "crazy idea" connected to a critical strike at Syria. It seems the answer is yes.

In another meeting - according to Hanna Zemer, the one-time editor of the newspaper Davar - Dayan spoke of the possibility that "the Third Temple," meaning the state, would be destroyed. Foreign news outlets have reported that Israel readied its nuclear weapons and even considered using them as a last resort.

The Dimona nuclear facility was completed in 1960. Those same foreign reports say Israel had several dozen nuclear weapons in October 1973, as well as the means to deliver them: French-made Mirage and U.S.-made Phantom aircraft and the Jericho missile, an Israeli improvement on a French model. All of these, the reports said, were at full readiness.

Investigative journalist Seymour Hersh called his book on Israel's nuclear program "The Samson Option." The implication is that Israel would use atomic weapons if it viewed itself as facing certain, imminent destruction.

If these reports are accurate - and the documents released this week do not confirm them, but possibly only hint at them through portions blacked out by the military censor - this would be neither the first nor the last time Israel's leaders have discussed their so-called "doomsday weapons."

International researchers have posited that Israel had a nuclear device even before the 1967 Six-Day War.

In 1991, Israel again reportedly considered using atomic weapons in response to the Scud missile attacks launched by Saddam Hussein during the Gulf War. Rightist ministers, including Yuval Ne'eman (a physicist involved in Israel's nuclear program), Rafael Eitan and Rehavam Ze'evi, urged Yitzhak Shamir's government to respond forcefully, but Shamir rejected Israeli military action out of hand.

In recent years, as Iran emerged as Israel's foremost threat, experts at home and abroad have raised the nuclear option once again. In lectures in Vienna and Berlin, and later in an ill-considered op-ed in The New York Times, historian Benny Morris has urged Israel's leaders to hit Iran with a nuclear bomb.

Thankfully, government officials on both left and right have thus far shown responsibility and stuck to the ambiguity policy instituted in 1961, under which Israel promised it would not be the first country to introduce nuclear weapons to the Middle East.

They know as well as anyone that the first country to do so will not only forfeit its seat among the community nations, but will likely cease to exist.

Did Israel ever consider using nuclear weapons? - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News


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## Menes

*Release of Yom Kippur War transcripts opens old wounds*

By Eli Ashkenazi
01:49 08.10.10

Avi Ginosar stood yesterday near the Golan Heights monument to Brigade 769 and described the battles he fought during the Yom Kippur War.

"I still see everything before my eyes - the burned tanks, the battles of armor against armor," he said at the 35th annual memorial ceremony for the 72 brigade members killed in the war and since then. "I still hear the reports on the radio. That is when I understood that if we do not stop the Syrians here, then the Egyptians will stop them in Tel Aviv."

Ginosar - who, like his fellow brigade members, remained on reserve duty for seven months after the war - said the transcripts of meetings held by Israel's war cabinet during the first four days of the war, which the state archives released this week, "told me nothing new."

"After all, Hofi had warned that war was about to break out and no one listened," said Ginosar, referring to Yitzhak Hofi, who was in charge of Northern Command at the time. The transcripts confirmed the existence of an intelligence source who provided credible information of an imminent attack.

"I have in me anger that has not subsided to this day," said Ginosar.

Orri Orrr, who commanded the brigade during the war, also said the transcripts weren't that revealing.

"There is nothing new in the documents published," said . "But old news can open up old wounds. There are scars that seem to have healed but are opened anew. We won the battle at a heavy price. There are things that can stay with you for 37 years."

Speaking at the memorial ceremony, Orr said "we must continue to believe and remain determined, but at the same time we must criticize and examine the system every single day."

In addition to brigade members like Ginosar and Orr, dozens of members' families and the relatives of soldiers killed in the war attended the ceremony.

Rita Gershon stood before the memorial with tears running down her face, looking at her brother's name carved in metal.

"The pain that I have felt since his death does not subside, and neither does the anger over the mistakes made then," she said. "Now, in view of the publication of the transcripts of the government meetings in those days, I am even more angry. I understand how ill-prepared we were and how arrogant."

"The pain has been choking me for 37 years now," said Hava Yemini-Polani, whose brother Mordechai was killed in combat on the Golan Heights. "We learned of the failures after the war, but now the anger is greater than ever. Unfortunately, over many years they tried to keep many things quiet."

For some survivors of the 1973 war, just seeing the families of those who didn't make it can bring back harrowing memories.

"Every year it is hard," said brigade member Zohar Yair. "Nineteen men died in my tank. I took the dead out and took on a new crew each time. It is painful to see the bereaved families." 

Release of Yom Kippur War transcripts opens old wounds - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News


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## Menes

*Nothing has changed since the Yom Kippur War
Nothing has changed in 37 years. Israel has the same arrogant hubris and the same obstinate resistance to any prospect of a peace agreement.*

By Gideon Levy
02:12 07.10.10

The act of atonement in which we are engaged over the recently declassified documents from the Yom Kippur War is nothing but a hollow pagan ritual. Suddenly we learn that Golda Meir considered ordering an "insane" operation against Syria and said the world was "contemptible;" defense minister Moshe Dayan called for abandoning wounded soldiers in the field and was thoroughly depressed; and Israel Defense Forces chief of staff David Elazar tended to lie to the public.

We love to indulge in discussing the blunders of 1973, imagining that they belong to the ancient past. All the responsible parties are dead, but the topic is still alive and kicking. The winds of 1973 blow hard today, and nothing has changed. The fact is that today, when each of Golda's pronouncements and Dayan's proposals are headlines once again, nobody remembers another error from this period, a much more critical mistake, by the same gang, made when it squandered the opportunity, in the early 1970s, of reaching an agreement with Egypt. Had a real lesson been learned from the Yom Kippur War, the scandal would have been attributed to this missed chance for negotiations - the same error that is being made today.

In the early 1970s, there was a genuine prospect for peace with Egypt. President Gamal Abdel Nasser agreed to the Rogers Plan, to which all subsequent peace proposals bear a striking resemblance, and even invited World Jewish Congress head Nahum Goldmann to confer with him. Golda blocked the meeting and ridiculed the idea, and Dayan declared, "Better to have Sharm el-Sheikh without peace." The rest is history: Israel always prefers war to peace, and if there is no choice then we'll make peace after a war, never before. Peace with Egypt, the withdrawal from south Lebanon and recognition of the Palestine Liberation Organization, all took place only after blood was shed, never before.

Nothing has changed in 37 years. It's the same arrogant hubris, the same obstinate resistance to any prospect of an agreement, the same failure to recognize that only peace will save us from another defense minister who sinks into an existential depression while warning of an impending holocaust. What's the point of this festival of 1973 war documents and this retroactive dance of death? Why look back, if on the day the settlement building freeze ended the settlers did a remarkably accurate imitation of the dance of arrogance that preceded the 1973 war?

There is no difference between the Plymouth Valiants driven by the lords of Israel in those days, the generals who went to Tel Aviv restaurants where their photographs decorated the walls, and today's torpor. The same drunken blindness is at play, even if the cult of the generals has since been curbed. Nasser sought peace in the early 1970s, and Bashar Assad, Mahmoud Abbas and the Arab League are knocking in vain at Israel's closed door in 2010. We mocked and turned a deaf ear then; we mock and turn a deaf ear now. We have examined photographs from parties in those power-drunk days and failed to find a hint of sobriety, or even a hangover, today. Look at us then and see us today. The fun and games continue, and the state shouts for joy, now as then.

Clip and save the bread and circuses: National Infrastructure Minister Uzi Landau promising power stations on the occupied Golan Heights and Transportation Minister Yisrael Katz promising a railroad on the occupied West Bank, just as Dayan and Shimon Peres promised a "deep-water harbor" at Yamit. It's the same story - the jubilation over natural gas discoveries, the roars of joy over the bulldozers in the settlements, the blunt indifference to world opinion, the apathy to the ills of the occupation, the obsession with trivialities, the gossip columns that bow to the rich and powerful, the small screen that keeps us from knowing what is really happening and the smokescreen of complacency that shrouds it all. Clip and save, and when the next scandal over a failure of leadership arises, in much less than 37 years, once again we won't be able to pretend to be shocked and surprised.

Take the Home Front Command public service message in which a cute soldier tells actress Tiki Dayan not to hurry, she can continue to fry her schnitzels. Listen to the soldier, in her voice: Keep pounding those chicken cutlets, thin, just the way we like, there's nothing urgent.

Nothing has changed since the Yom Kippur War - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News


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## 500

Menes said:


> Nothing has changed since the Yom Kippur War


* Before Yom Kippur Israel asked for direct negotiations, while Egypt asked preconditions.
* After Yom Kippur Egypt agreed on talks without preconditions and peace was signed.
* Today Israel wants direct talks without preconditions with Syria and Palestinians, but Syrians and Palestinians have preconditions...


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## Menes

500 said:


> Before Yom Kippur Israel asked for direct negotiations, while Egypt asked preconditions.


Read this post..

http://www.defence.pk/forums/1108504-post56.html

Sadat's initiative is also confirmed by the US national archive, and declassified Israeli documents.



> After Yom Kippur Egypt agreed on talks without preconditions and peace was signed.


Egypt took more than 10,000 km square in Sinai, years before any negotiations.



> Today Israel wants direct talks without preconditions with Syria and Palestinians, but Syrians and Palestinians have preconditions...


Israel officially annexed Golan and Jerusalem, expanding settlements, and publicly announced that no return to pre 1967 borders, closing all doors to peace in the region.


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## Menes

> Two IDF soldiers taken prisoners, behind them a disabled M60 tank near one of Bar-Lev line strongholds.

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## 500

Menes said:


> Read this post..
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/1108504-post56.html
> 
> Sadat's initiative is also confirmed by the US national archive, and declassified Israeli documents.


Their initiative did not include direct negotiations without preconditions.



> Egypt took more than 10,000 km square in Sinai, years before any negotiations.


During the war Egypt took 1200 km2 in Sinai but lost 1600 km2 in Africa.



> Israel officially annexed Golan and Jerusalem, expanding settlements, and publicly announced that no return to pre 1967 borders, closing all doors to peace in the region.


Israel agrees on direct negotiations, Syria refuses.


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## 500

YouTube - Yom Kippur war Part II

YouTube - Yom Kippur War - 14th Brigade


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## Menes

500 said:


> Their initiative did not include direct negotiations without preconditions.


It did certainly include direct talks between Egypt and Israel without any immediate withdrawal.
US rejected Egypt sovereign rights over Sinai. Kissinger warned Sadat against attempting military actions; saying that even US wouldn't be able to speak with Israel.

Read _Egypt's struggle for peace_ by Yoram Meital, and the _Heroic Diplomacy_ by Kenneth W.Stein.



> During the war Egypt took 1200 km2 in Sinai but lost 1600 km2 in Africa.


Straw man argument?!! 
You said that after the war, Egypt agreed on direct talks without preconditions, I say that Egypt took more than 10,000 km square in Sinai before any negotiations. FACT



> Israel agrees on direct negotiations, Syria refuses.


Israel officially annexed Golan, that's even worse than any preconditions.


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## Menes

IDF PoWs in Sinai..





Israeli prisoner in Golan..

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## 500

Menes said:


> It did certainly include direct talks between Egypt and Israel without any immediate withdrawal.
> US rejected Egypt sovereign rights over Sinai. Kissinger warned Sadat against attempting military actions; saying that even US wouldn't be able to speak with Israel.
> 
> Read _Egypt's struggle for peace_ by Yoram Meital, and the _Heroic Diplomacy_ by Kenneth W.Stein.


What should I read, and how it will change anything.



> Straw man argument?!!
> You said that after the war, Egypt agreed on direct talks without preconditions, I say that Egypt took more than 10,000 km square in Sinai before any negotiations. FACT








Red - territory, captured by Egypt - 1200 km2
Green - territory, captured by Israel - 1600 km2

Thats fact.



> Israel officially annexed Golan, that's even worse than any preconditions.


So what? Syria was asking preconditions even before the anexation in 1980. Actually itrs not even annexation but extention of laws.


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## waraich66

Menes said:


> The Arabs - Egypt in particular - achieved a great political and Strategic victory out of the war.
> Militarily, the result was stalemate on both fronts, although the Egyptian army achieved its objective, liberated the east bank of the Suez Canal, and did ultimately succeed in forcing the Israelis back to negotiation table.





Palestine problem is still unresolved and Gaza is under seige by both Israel and Egypt .


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## Menes

Muhammad Yahya said:


> Palestine problem is still unresolved



Palestine was not part of the plan. Unfortunately, Egypt was not supposed to liberate Palestine using MiG-17s and T-34s.


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## Menes

500 said:


> What should I read, and how it will change anything.


You will find out that most Israeli historians and politicians blame the Israeli government for the failure of Sadat's peace initiatives.

Shlomo Ben-Ami says in the _Scars of War_, p. 135: "In the winter of 1971, Israel was clearly responsible, and Golda Meir must take the principal part of the blame, for the subversion of a unique opportunity for peace. The rejection of his overture signalled for Sadat the beginning of the countdown to war."

Isn't it ironical that you are the only one who are blaming Sadat?



> Red - territory, captured by Egypt - 1200 km2
> Green - territory, captured by Israel - 1600 km2
> 
> Thats fact.


The source of your map is the Israeli MFA website. That's fun!

Here are UNEF II maps..






IDF retreated behind that black dashed line (Line K) and behind (Line M) in the south, before any negotiations between Egypt and Israel.



> So what? Syria was asking preconditions even before the anexation in 1980. Actually itrs not even annexation but extention of laws.


Israel constructed settlements in Golan after 1967, it was virtually annexed even before 1980.


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## Menes

> Dogfight between an Egyptian MiG-17 and Israeli F-4E Phantom II over Ras Nasrani AFB during the war.


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## Menes

> Egyptian soldiers on the east bank. Notice the carts. Pulled by two men, these transports greatly assisted in the movement of weapons and mat&#233;riel on the east bank, while no vehicles had yet crossed.


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## 500

Menes said:


> You will find out that most Israeli historians and politicians blame the Israeli government for the failure of Sadat's peace initiatives.
> 
> Shlomo Ben-Ami says in the _Scars of War_, p. 135: "In the winter of 1971, Israel was clearly responsible, and Golda Meir must take the principal part of the blame, for the subversion of a unique opportunity for peace. The rejection of his overture signalled for Sadat the beginning of the countdown to war."
> 
> Isn't it ironical that you are the only one who are blaming Sadat?


Shlomo Ben Ami does not represent most of Israeli historians and politicians. I brought fatcs what Saddat was asking before the war.



> The source of your map is the Israeli MFA website. That's fun!


Its not and it is agreed by all sane historians in the world.



> Here are UNEF II maps..
> 
> http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/1820/unef2polacy.jpg
> 
> IDF retreated behind that black dashed line (Line K) and behind (Line M) in the south, before any negotiations between Egypt and Israel.


No, this retreat happened as result of the negotiation. UN force and demilitarized Egyptian zone prevented all chances of another surpsise attack by Egypt.



> Israel constructed settlements in Golan after 1967, it was virtually annexed even before 1980.


Same goes with Sinai, nevetheless Sadat lead direct talks without preconditions and even visited Jerusalem. While Syria asks preconditions like its world superpower and not the poorest country in region


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## Menes

500 said:


> Shlomo Ben Ami does not represent most of Israeli historians and politicians.


I never heard about an Israeli historian who blamed Sadat for the outbreak of the war.



> Its not


Yes it is, and also photoshopped by Wikipedia editor Raul666!!
It has nothing to do with our debate, you just brought it to derail the thread.



> No, this retreat happened as result of the negotiation.


I am not aware of any direct negotiations in 1975.



> Same goes with Sinai,


No, US guaranteed Egypt's sovereign over Sinai before any direct talks, and pressured Israel to virtually cease settlements expansion, and to sign the Sinai interim agreement of 1975. Israel obviously realised that they had no chance in Sinai.
The opposite happened in Golan in 1975, where Israel rejected another interim agreement with Syria.



> nevetheless Sadat lead direct talks without preconditions and even visited Jerusalem.


Sadat received more than 10,000 km square in Sinai before any negotiations.



> While Syria asks preconditions like its world superpower and not the poorest country in region


Israel officially annexed Golan like it's Nazi country.

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## Menes

> In this rare photograph, Egyptian combat engineers use high-pressure fire hoses, purchased from Britain and Germany, to blast away the sand embankments of the Bar-Lev line. No other method, including explosives, could have achieved the same result quickly enough. This was the idea of a young engineer officer and was crucial to the success of Operation Badr. (EGIO)

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## SALMAN F

Menes said:


> The Arabs - Egypt in particular - achieved a great political and Strategic victory out of the war.
> Militarily, the result was stalemate on both fronts, although the Egyptian army achieved its objective, liberated the east bank of the Suez Canal, and did ultimately succeed in forcing the Israelis back to negotiation table.


Israel destroyed your army and your economy see their country today compared to you


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