# History of Punjabis



## Taimur Khurram

We've got one for Pashtuns, so I am making one for Punjabis.

I will start off with some historical Punjabi figures:

Porus







A Punjabi king who fought bravely against Alexander of Macedon. Defeating him was one of Alexander's most difficult conquests, and out of respect for Porus he employed him as a satrapy over the area. The difficulty of the battle also seems to have caused the Macedonian soldiersoldier's reluctancy to fight any further, to the point where they almost started a mutiny. This resulted in Alexander being forced to end his campaign of expansion.

https://www.britannica.com/biography/Porus

Kautilya

A famous philosopher from Taxila who tutored Chandragupta Maurya, and held a key position in the Mauryan Empire. He is often compared to Aristotle and Plato.

https://www.britannica.com/biography/Kautilya

Sarang Khan

He was a powerful ruler of Nothern Punjab who fought alongside Babur during his conquests of Hindustan. He obtained the title of Sultan for his efforts. When Sher Shah Suri usurped Babur's son Humayun, Sarang fought against him bravely, and Sher Shah Suri was never able to subdue his people even after skinning Sarang himself.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sultan_Sarang_Khan

Wazir Khan






A Punjabi who acted as Shah Jahan's physician. He was also a Mughal noble and chief Qazi of Lahore for quite some time during Mughal rule. He founded Wazirabad and Wazir Khan Masjid is named after him.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wazir_Khan_(Lahore)

Shahbaz Khan

A Punjabi who fought as a general under Akbar. He participated in some of the most difficult battles during Akbar's reign, and annexed large amounts of Hindustan. He was also a highly religious Muslim, keeping a long beard and regularly praying.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shahbaz_Khan_Kamboh

Abdullah Bhatti

He rebelled against Mughal emeperor Akbar, and is often compared to Robin Hood due to his social banditry. Many folklore tales speak highly of his deeds. When he was hung, his last words that were uttered were "No honourable son of Punjab will ever sell the soil of Punjab".

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dulla_Bhatti

Fateh Muhammad

Worked as a commander in Aurangzeb's army. He was also the father of Hyder Ali, who was the father of Tipu Sultan.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fath_Muhammad

Mukarrab Khan






A powerful chieftain of nothern Punjab who fought alongside Nader Shah during his conquests of the Mughal Empire. He was awarded the title of Nawab for his efforts and was allowed to retain control of his kingdom. He then expanded it to include much of nothern Pakistan before being defeated by the Sikh Empire. Even then, his people continued to rebel against the Sikhs.

http://firdosh101.blogspot.co.uk/2009/05/history-of-gakhars.html?m=1

Allama Iqbal






An Urdu/Farsi poet as well as a philosopher who is also considered the spiritual father of Pakistan.

http://historypak.com/allama-muhammad-iqbal-1877-1938/

Rehmat Ali






One of Pakistan's founding fathers. He came up with the name of Pakistan and was the author of the Pakistan declaration.

http://historypak.com/choudhry-rahmat-ali-1895-1951/

Faiz Ahmed Faiz






One of Urdu's most celebrated poets. He won numerous awards for his poetry, such as the Lenin Peace Prize and Nishan-e-Imtiaz. He was also nominated for a Nobel Prize in Literature.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faiz_Ahmad_Faiz

Shabbir Sharif






The most decorated soldier to ever serve the Pakistani army. During 1971, he and his men destroyed several Hindustani tanks and kept two Hindustani battalions at bay by killing over 40 of their troops and capturing almost 30 of them as POW's. He also defeated a Hindustani company commander who challenged him to hand-to-hand combat. He won both Nishan-e-Haider and Sitara-e-Jurat for his efforts.

http://www.pakarmymuseum.com/exhibits/second-lieutenant-shabbir-sharif/

Tikka Khan






Fought against Erwin Rommel in WW2 as part of Britain's Africa campaign. He also served in the Pakistani army, participating in the Battle of Chawinda (2nd largest tank battle in history) and lead the army to great victories in the Rann of Kutch. He eventually became a general, and crushed Bengali and Baluchi insurgencies with a heavy hand. He's also my PDF profile picture.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tikka_Khan

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## Taimur Khurram

@lastofthepatriots @Kaptaan @Iqbal Ali @TMA @DESERT FIGHTER @Desert Fox @waz @Mugwop @Albatross @RealNapster @Dalit @newb3e @Ocean @Starlord @Ahmad Sajjad Paracha @Reichsmarschall @M.R.9 @django @Champion_Usmani @Clutch @Mentee @Talwar e Pakistan @war&peace @Windjammer @Horus

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## MultaniGuy

Interesting information you have there.

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## Taimur Khurram

@hussain0216 @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @Azadkashmir

@Taimoor Khan

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## Indus Pakistan

dsr478 said:


> Porus


One of ancient histories great characters - Pakistani's and in particular those who are of Punjabi extraction need to celebrate this chap and 'own' him. All too often aborginals from Gangadesh claim him as theirs. Porus put up a fight against the world conquerer Alexander the "Great" that he had *not *faced anywhere else. What a epic battle and people from Jhelum should be proud that they almost brought the mighty Greek army on it's knees.








_Having defeated the Pukhtuns in Bajaur and Swat, Alexander the Macedonian came upon the Sindhu River — at the village we today know as Hund. It lies on the west bank of the Sindhu, some ways north of the city of Jehangira on the Grand Trunk Road. Here, Alexander crossed the river to reach Taxila. It was April in the year 326 BCE.


Outside the village, by the banks of the river, there sits a monument to Alexander’s greatness and achievements. Such a memorial would have been appropriate in Macedonia or Greece, but failing to see the reason of this celebration in Pakistan, I have judiciously avoided visiting it since it was built back in the mid-1990s. The monument owes itself entirely to the archaeologist Ahmad Hasan Dani.

Again, in the little village of Jalalpur, on the highroad between Serai Alamgir and Pind Dadan Khan, there is another monument, even more elaborate than the one at Hund. Here, we also have a so-called library and research centre. This, too, was ordered by Dani. The funds for both Alexander monuments were supplied by the National Fund for Culture and Heritage, of which Dani was a long-time head.
_
https://tribune.com.pk/story/97037/alexanders-monument/

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## Taimur Khurram

Kaptaan said:


> One of ancient histories great characters - Pakistani's and in particular those who are of Punjabi extraction need to celebrate this chap and 'own' him. All too often aborginals from Gangadesh claim him as theirs. Porus put up a fight against the world conquerer Alexander the "Great" that he had *not *faced anywhere else. What a epic battle and people from Jhelum should be proud that they almost brought the mighty Greek army on it's knees.



Many of us certainly are. My father is from Sarai Alamgir (used to be a part of Jhelum district until the late 90's, but it's still within Jhelum's cantonment limits) and he told me about Porus with great pride about his achievements.

Us Pakistanis certainly need to appreciate our history, especially our pre-Islamic one, much more than we currently do. Other than Pashtuns, Baluchis and those who claim ancestry from Islamic nobility, the rest of us really don't care as much as we should about our past prior to Pakistan's independence. This has allowed our eastern neighbour to claim it as their own, to the point where they even named themselves after OUR river.

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## BHarwana

lol


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## Sugarcane

Ranjit Singh is also part of Punjabi history if it's not selective recognition.

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## Indus Pakistan

dsr478 said:


> Sarai Alamgir


A special Salam to you. I have stayed with a friend in Sarai Alamgir. Great, friendly people and some nice looking ladies. Much respect. And as you will know Jhelum along with Rawalpindi and Attock has provided generations of it's young to the army.

_Ps. I have walked across the Iron bridge built by British across River Jhelum._

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## Taimur Khurram

Kaptaan said:


> One of ancient histories great characters - Pakistani's and in particular those who are of Punjabi extraction need to celebrate this chap and 'own' him. All too often aborginals from Gangadesh claim him as theirs. Porus put up a fight against the world conquerer Alexander the "Great" that he had *not *faced anywhere else. What a epic battle and people from Jhelum should be proud that they almost brought the mighty Greek army on it's knees.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Having defeated the Pukhtuns in Bajaur and Swat, Alexander the Macedonian came upon the Sindhu River — at the village we today know as Hund. It lies on the west bank of the Sindhu, some ways north of the city of Jehangira on the Grand Trunk Road. Here, Alexander crossed the river to reach Taxila. It was April in the year 326 BCE.
> 
> 
> Outside the village, by the banks of the river, there sits a monument to Alexander’s greatness and achievements. Such a memorial would have been appropriate in Macedonia or Greece, but failing to see the reason of this celebration in Pakistan, I have judiciously avoided visiting it since it was built back in the mid-1990s. The monument owes itself entirely to the archaeologist Ahmad Hasan Dani.
> 
> Again, in the little village of Jalalpur, on the highroad between Serai Alamgir and Pind Dadan Khan, there is another monument, even more elaborate than the one at Hund. Here, we also have a so-called library and research centre. This, too, was ordered by Dani. The funds for both Alexander monuments were supplied by the National Fund for Culture and Heritage, of which Dani was a long-time head.
> _
> https://tribune.com.pk/story/97037/alexanders-monument/



Speaking of Alexander, his campaign in Pakistan was his most difficult. When writing to his mother, he spoke of the people of the region, saying:








Kaptaan said:


> A special Salam to you. I have stayed with a friend in Sarai Alamgir. Great, friendly people and some nice looking ladies. Much respect. And as you will know Jhelum along with Rawalpindi and Attock has provided generations of it's young to the army.
> 
> _Ps. I have walked across the Iron bridge built by British across River Jhelum._



Walaikum Asalam

Thank you for the compliments.

May I ask which part of Pakistan you come from?



BHarwana said:


> lol



Asalamu Alaikum

What's funny?

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## Indus Pakistan

dsr478 said:


> Speaking of Alexander, his campaign in Pakistan was his most difficult.


Yep. We Pashtuns/Punjabis of coterminous Pakistan gave Alexander the Great a fight he would learn to respect. It is sad though the aboriginals of Ganga have effectively claimed our heritage. But as you mention that is our fault. I hope future generations in Pakistan learn to stand tall on the heritage of their forefathers from the Islam and pre Islamic period.

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## Taimur Khurram

LoveIcon said:


> Ranjit Singh is also part of Punjabi history if it's not selective recognition.



True, but I prefer to speak of Punjabis that Pakistani-Punjabis would and should admire.

The Sikhs used Masjids as stables and banned the Azaan, with many Punjabi Muslims resisting them fiercely. Some of them even sided with the Durranis when they fought against the Sikhs.

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## Jaanbaz

*Adina Beg







*
who became the last Mughal governor of the Punjab.

Adina Beg was born to Channu an Arain of Sharakpur Sharif near Lahore.[1] He was raised by Mughal families in the Doaba region of the Punjab.[1]

*Career*
He began his career as a sepoy responsible for revenue collection across a handful of villages near Sultanpur. He quickly gained influence across the Doaba. In 1739, he was appointed faujdar of Sultanpur by the Mughal viceroy of the Punjab, Zakariya Khan Bahadur.[2] On his appointment he made his patron Sri Nivas his assistant, and his patron's brother Bhwani Das his superintendent.[2]

That same year, Nader Shah invaded the Mughal Empire. Sultanpur, located on the road from Lahore to Delhi was ravaged by Persian troops. Adina Beg's success in restoring order, providing relief and securing the relief of prisoners enhanced his reputation.[2] Zakariya Khan, learning of his performance, appointed him Subahdar of the Doaba with instructions to halt the rising threat of the Sikh Misls.[2] Soon after his appointment Adina Beg dispatched troops against the Sikhs and carried out a massive slaughter against them.[3] Notably after restoring peace and order in the area, he ignored orders to take decisive steps to crush the Sikhs and instead pursued means of making peace with them.[4]Recognising the decline of his Mughal employers he sought to make alliances with local groups, and granted jagirs to a number of Sikhs whilst also employing many in his armed forces, notably Jassa Singh Ramgarhia.[4][5]

Nader Shah's invasion resulted in widespread looting, and led to Zakariya Khan being unable to pay his soldiers. In an attempt to raise funds he imprisoned the Diwan Lakhpat Rai, whose brother Jaspat Rai then proceeded to demand arrears from all the nazims and faujdars.[2] Adina Beg subsequently found himself imprisoned for being in arrears and was stripped of his position as governor of the Doaba.[2] He gained his release after a year through the aid of his loyal assistants Sri Nivas and Bhwani Das. He then saw his fortunes change again when he was appointed deputy governor of the Doaba under his replacement as governor, Shah Nawaz, the son of the late Zakariya Khan[6]

In 1747, Shah Nawaz forcibly occupied Lahore, and unable to win over support from the Delhi government to make him subahdar of Lahore, invited Ahmad Shah Durrani to invade the Mughal Empire. On hearing of this treachery, the Delhi government hurriedly acquiesced to Shah Nawaz's demands, but were too late to halt Durrani's invasion. Durrani defeated Shah Nawaz at Lahore before marching on Delhi. Adina assisted Mir Mannu in the decisive Mughal victory at the Battle of Manupur which forced Durrani's retreat to Kabul. In return, the newly appointed subahdar of Lahore Mir Mannu reinstated Adina as faujdar of the Doaba. Durrani followed up his initial invasion a year later acquiring more territory to the west of the Indus river. During his third invasion, he defeated Mir Mannu at the Battle of Lahore and established Afghan supremacy in the Punjab although he kept Mir Mannu in place as his governor at Lahore. On Mir Mannu's death in 1753, Adina asserted independence from the Durrani Empire and extended his control of the Doaba as far as Sirhind. In May 1756 he was made subahdar of Lahore and Multan by the Mughal government at Delhi in return for an annual tribute of thirty lakh of rupees. The move incited the Afghans who forced Adina to relinquish his position, and reaffirmed him as faujdar of the Doaba.

In 1757, Adina sought out allies to expel the Afghans from the Punjab. He struck a deal with Sikh leaders Jassa Singh Ahluwalia and Sodhi Vadhbhag Singh, and with their help defeated the Afghans at Mahilpur.[7] By March 1758 he had also enlisted the support of Raghunathrao of the Maratha Empire, and together they expelled the Afghans from Lahore. The Punjab now came under Maratha rule, with Adina appointed subahdar of the Punjab in 1758 in return for a yearly tribute of seventy five lakh of rupees. Raghunathrao and Malhar Rao Holkar the two commanders-in-chief of the Maratha forces remained in Lahore for three months after which they retired to the Deccan leaving Adina in sole control.[8]Now in control of the entirety of the Punjab, Adina entrusted Lahore to his son-in-law Khwaja Mirza, and set up his headquarters in Batala nearer to his traditional power base in the Doaba.[9] To entrench his position he sought to eliminate his rivals, and declared his erstwhile allies the Sikhs, outlaws. He pursued two expeditions against the Sikhs, including an abortive siege of the mud fort Ram Rauni.[10]

*Death*
On 15 September 1758, only a few months after his appointment, Adina Beg passed away at Khanpur near Hoshiarpur.[1] The Maratha's appointed Sabaji Bhonsl to succeed him as the governor of the Punjab.[11] A tomb was erected at his grave in Khanpur.[1] His life is described in an unpublished Persian manuscript, the _Ahwal-i-Dina Beg Khan_.

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## Indus Pakistan

dsr478 said:


> May I ask which part of Pakistan you come from?


Attock/Ghorgushti but have family in Islamabad, Abottabad and of course UK.

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## Taimur Khurram

Kaptaan said:


> Yep. We Pashtuns/Punjabis of coterminous Pakistan gave Alexander the Great a fight he would learn to respect. It is sad though the aboriginals of Ganga have effectively claimed our heritage. But as you mention that is our fault. I hope future generations in Pakistan learn to stand tall on the heritage of their forefathers from the Islam and pre Islamic period.



Inshallah.

We need a nationalist party in Pakistan in order to achieve this goal, and I am hopeful that PDF and websites like it will prop up to breed people who will aspire for such goals.

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## BHarwana

dsr478 said:


> Asalamu Alaikum
> 
> What's funny?



Every thing is funny.

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## Taimur Khurram

Kaptaan said:


> Attock/Ghorgushti but have family in Islamabad, Abottabad and of course UK.



Interesting. 

I know the people of Attock are (as you said earlier) very martial, and that the region was of high strategic importance in historic times. 

So, I take it you are a Pashtun, correct?

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## lastofthepatriots

Punjab is a geographical and linguistic designation, so history of 'Punjabis' is kind of arbitrary.

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## Taimur Khurram

BHarwana said:


> Every thing is funny.



Fair enough, a lot of things in life make me smile too.

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## El Sidd

So is punjabi an ethinicity?

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## lastofthepatriots

El Sidd said:


> So is punjabi an ethinicity?



No.

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## El Sidd

BHarwana said:


> Every thing is funny.



Chor na kyon pareshan karta hai bachon ko



lastofthepatriots said:


> No.



Its a linguistic Group, right?

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## Taimur Khurram

lastofthepatriots said:


> Punjab is a geographical and linguistic designation, so history of 'Punjabis' is kind of arbitrary.



Asalamu Alaikum

We are all genetically pretty similar (especially through our maternal side), have a similar culture, speak the same language, have the same values, and have always just been generally similar. 

I wouldn't call it arbitrary, rather, I'd say there are many sub-groups that fall under the Punjabi identity.

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## BHarwana

dsr478 said:


> Fair enough, a lot of things in life make me smile too.



How long will this ethnic claims go on.


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## Azadkashmir

My friend is from jehlum. about women i heard they are player you gotta watch out.


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## Taimur Khurram

lastofthepatriots said:


> No.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punjabis

"The *Punjabis* (Punjabi: پنجابی‬, ਪੰਜਾਬੀ), or *Punjabi people*, are an ethnic group"

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## El Sidd

BHarwana said:


> How long will this ethnic claims go on.



Till they convince each other that they are all humans and Pakistanis first.

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## Taimur Khurram

BHarwana said:


> How long will this ethnic claims go on.



Nothing wrong with taking a little bit of pride in the history of your ethnic group, so long as it does not make one arrogant.

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## Azadkashmir

molvis wont like it especially funded by Arabian nights leaders.

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## Taimur Khurram

Azadkashmir said:


> My friend is from jehlum. about women i heard they are player you gotta watch out.



You heard wrong. VERY wrong.



Azadkashmir said:


> molvis wont like it especially funded by Arabian nights leaders.



Molvis won't mind so long as you are still Muslim first and don't use the "n" word (nationalism).

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## Indus Pakistan

dsr478 said:


> We need a nationalist party in Pakistan in order to achieve this goal, and I am hopeful that PDF and websites like it will prop up to breed people who will aspire for such goals.


Honestly my opinion is that there should be a natural maturation of 'Pakistan'. That is it should be a natural, intrinsic process that binds the generic threads inside Pakistan into a national fedration. 

Or to put it simply. All the native people of Pakistan, Punjabi, Pashtuns, Baloch, Sindhi etc should in the first instance celebrate who they are and own their own unique histories. Then as each gains pride and self respect as to who they are all these threads - Baloch, Sindhi, Pashtun, Punjabi should all weave together into a united, strong Pakistan. Think of each as a mosaic in a national kalaidascope. 

We should never suppress regional or provincial heritage or histories. All of us should take pride in who we are and then stand together in line as 'Pakistan'. I would only add one caveat. We must celebrate our histories but in a manner that does not disparge our other brothers/sisters in the federation. This way we make a stronger united federation. You can look at United Kingdom and see how it is a fabric woven out of England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland.

Of course if you celebrate being Punjabi at the expense of Baloch or Pashtuns or Sindhis. That is no good. We need to work together and celebrate our diversity. That is my considered opinion anyway ...

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## lastofthepatriots

dsr478 said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punjabis
> 
> "The *Punjabis* (Punjabi: پنجابی‬, ਪੰਜਾਬੀ), or *Punjabi people*, are an ethnic group"



I don't know. About 20 years ago pathans started moving into our village in south Punjab. They are Punjabi in a sense that they live in Punjab, but they still don't speak Punjabi.

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## BHarwana

El Sidd said:


> Till they convince each other that they are all humans and Pakistanis first.





dsr478 said:


> Nothing wrong with taking a little bit of pride in the history of your ethnic group, so long as it does not make one arrogant.



One simple thing if you all can digest show the conquest of any of them below Pindi Battian


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## Taimur Khurram

lastofthepatriots said:


> I don't know. About 20 years ago pathans started moving into our village in south Punjab. They are Punjabi in a sense that they live in Punjab, but they still don't speak Punjabi.



For them, it would depend on which tribe of Pashtuns they belong to, and whether or not they have intermarried with Punjabis.

Even if they don't currently meet the criteria, their descendants probably will.

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## Indus Pakistan

I defended you @Azadkashmir few days ago but this statement you made is crass and most unfair. You ought to be ashamed of yourself.



> My friend is from jehlum. about women i heard they are player you gotta watch out.




@dsr478 Anyway mate I hope you build up this thread. All the best ...

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## El Sidd

BHarwana said:


> One simple thing if you all can digest show the conquest of any of them below Pindi Battian



I dont have to prove anything. 

I am just waiting for someone to come up with

Porus was a pious proud Muslim who defeated the yahoodzzzz saazish of Alexander

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## Taimur Khurram

BHarwana said:


> One simple thing if you all can digest show the conquest of any of them below Pindi Battian



No.

I'm getting annoyed with some people calling Punjabis a bunch of conquered people who haven't done anything in their history other than form the Sikh Empire.

I'm focusing on the achievements, many others have already focused on the failures.

[QUOTE="Kaptaan, post: 10506235, member: 139301"
@dsr478 Anyway mate I hope you build up this thread. All the best ...[/QUOTE]

You too.

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## Indus Pakistan

lastofthepatriots said:


> so history of 'Punjabis' is kind of arbitrary.


There is no such thing as scientific history. All history is to a extent arbitrary and subjective ....

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## BHarwana

El Sidd said:


> I dont have to prove anything.
> 
> I am just waiting for someone to come up with
> 
> Porus was a pious proud Muslim who defeated the yahoodzzzz saazish of Alexander



Bhai jitnay bhi aya un main say koi bhi aaj baqi hai? They are all gone and we are left aab hum sub Pakistani hain. Instead of crying to them try to do something your self. Half are from alexander and half are from Ghangez who conquered world but a small piece of kashmir is still stuck in our throats.



dsr478 said:


> No.
> 
> I'm getting annoyed with some people calling Punjabis a bunch of conquered people who haven't done anything in their history other than form the Sikh Empire.
> 
> I'm focusing on the achievements, many others have already focused on the failures.
> 
> [QUOTE="Kaptaan, post: 10506235, member: 139301"
> @dsr478 Anyway mate I hope you build up this thread. All the best ...


[/QUOTE]

lol

Theek hai. lagay raho. daba kay rakho kaptan ko

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## El Sidd

BHarwana said:


> Bhai jitnay bhi aya un main say koi bhi aaj baqi hai? They are all gone and we are left aab hum sub Pakistani hain. Instead of crying to them try to do something your self. Half are from alexander and half are from Ghangez who conquered world but a small piece of kashmir is still stuck in our throats.



Bhai Kia karen aap khud batao. 

Ye zaat paat kab tak chalega?

Kab tak caste system ko ghaseeta jaega?

Pakistan or Islam qabool karlo Warna jo haal mohen jo Daro ka hua wahi hoga.

Sabko shoq Hai kay hamare abao ajdaad pahaar kaat kar ghar banate they or sheeshay kay farash banate they.

100km door dushman roz bache burhe maar kar aurton ko rape karta hai, tab inko yaad nahi ata porus Alexander or Cyrus or darius or zulqarnain. 

Sahi neandethals hain

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## Azadkashmir

Kaptaan said:


> I defended you @Azadkashmir few days ago but this statement you made is crass and most unfair. You ought to be ashamed of yourself.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @dsr478 Anyway mate I hope you build up this thread. All the best ...



I don't mean in disrespectful way.

Well porus and Alexander not taught in pakistan i talked to people about this but they don't know. alexander is known sikander.


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## El Sidd

Azadkashmir said:


> alexander is known sikander



Highly debateable

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## Azadkashmir

Iranians are very proud of their history and are very nationalistic.

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## El Sidd

Azadkashmir said:


> Iranians are very proud of their history and are very nationalistic.



Cyrus cant be the Zulqarnain either

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## Azadkashmir

El Sidd said:


> Cyrus cant be the Zulqarnain either



lolz i didn't say but i was thinking, you read my mind.

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## TMA

El Sidd said:


> Cyrus cant be the Zulqarnain either


why can't he be zulqarnain?

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## El Sidd

TMA said:


> why can't he be zulqarnain?



Cyrus as Transmitted did Not believe in one God. His only claim to fame is that He had good Views of the jews.

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## TMA

El Sidd said:


> Cyrus as Transmitted did Not believe in one God. His only claim to fame is that He had good Views of the jews.


You sound like a mulla...


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## DESERT FIGHTER

dsr478 said:


> For them, it would depend on which tribe of Pashtuns they belong to, and whether or not they have intermarried with Punjabis.
> 
> Even if they don't currently meet the criteria, their descendants probably will.


I’ve actually seen 1 & 2nd gen settlers speak Panjabi.

I know a Bangash family settled in Gujranwala..the eldest son born in KPK.. the rest in Gujranwala.. they spoke panjabi .. although among their own family.. they did speak Pashto.

—-

On topic , you forgot Rai Ahmad Khan Kharral


*
Kharal and Berkley
https://www.dawn.com/news/802754/kharal-and-berkley
*





Muhammad Hassan MirajApril 15, 2013
Facebook Count12
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18
_For whom the bell tolls_

The 16th day of April 1853 is special in the Indian history. The day was a public holiday. At 3:30 pm, as the 21 guns roared together, the first train carrying Lady Falkland, wife of Governor of Bombay, along with 400 special invitees, steamed off from Bombay to Thane.


Ever since the engine rolled off the tracks, there have been new dimensions to the distances, relations and emotions. Abaseen Express, Khyber Mail and Calcutta Mail were not just the names of the trains but the experiences of hearts and souls. Now that we live in the days of burnt and non functional trains, I still have a few pleasant memories associated with train travels. These memoirs are the dialogues I had with myself while sitting by the windows or standing at the door as the train moved on. In the era of Cloud and Wi-fi communications, I hope you will like them.
A road from Jaranwala leads to Sayyedwala. None remains of the ruins now because the city has taken three turns on construction and destruction. To avoid disambiguation, it is named as Qadeem Sayyedwala, Purana Sayyedwala and lastly, just Sayyedwala. The story of Sayyedwala goes as Sher Shah Suri wanted to develop a new capital, away from Lahore. It was an act of Suri vengeance to rob Lahore of its grandeur. Foundations were laid and settlers moved in but Sher Shah could not. Sayyedwala had run out of its stock of fame and luck. It did thrive for a while but was subsequently abandoned to inattention. During Alamgir’s time, floods threatened Lahore Fort. Embankments were constructed to save the fort and divert the floods to Sayyedwala. Nothing stood the rage of the Moguls and with the wrath of the floods Sayyedwala was first destroyed. The residents, however, did not give up and founded a new city, three miles away, now known as Purana Sayyedwala.

The transition from Sikh Punjab to British Punjab is marked with names like Mool Raj, but most fascinating is an old Banyan tree, a well and a graveyard … a troika that denotes the spirit of freedom in Sayyedwala.

Before the war of independence in 1857, Sayyedwala and Gogera were busy grain markets astride Ravi and stopovers for caravans’ enroute to Lahore. When the war broke out, Sayyedwala offered stiff resistance and as it flopped, the wrath of the British Empire began. They put up gallows on the oldest Banyan tree of Sayyedwala, hung freedom fighters and threw them into the well in the graveyard. When the animosity did not wear out, they took recourse to punitive administrative measures and eventually Sayyedwala was relocated to its present location. The Raj did not realise that cities emulate human life; they can wear out but never be omitted from public memories. Sayyedwala lives on to-date, though like an old man, and spends most of its time in the backyard of the past.

Walking by Ravi, Jhamra comes next. The town has a tomb but the interred soul lives in the heart of those, who mourn the Punjab of yester-centuries. While the actual setting of his chivalry is celebrated on both sides of Ravi, Ahmed Khan Kharal was too free to be contained by geography. All those important and unimportant stations that lie on this route, once lived with the stories of the Kharals. Amidst the land allotments, fluid loyalties, deceit and compromises, the Jaats have documented an awe-inspiring tradition of courage and valour. Alongside Mirza, Rai Ahmed Khan Kharal was the Knight as well as the King Arthur of our culture. Today, the unknown cemeteries are not only home to these known men but also to the performers who once reinvigorated these epics with their craft, alas, the craft too has met a dusty fate. But, long ago, Ahmed Khan Kharal was part of tales mother told their children.

By caste, the Kharals are Rajput of the Agni-Kula descent. They link up their genealogy with Karan, a chivalrous character from Ramayana and were converted by Makhdoom Jahanian Shah Shareef. Saadat Ali Khan, a prominent Kharal, was granted a fiefdom in this locality by Aurangzeb and this is how these Jaats made Baar their new home. Those were the times when land and religion bonded men rather than dividing them. In Jhamra, neighbouring Nakais, Gayan Singh, Khazan Singh and Bhagwan Singh had pledged brotherhood with Rai Saleh Khan, the Kharal chief. When Gayan Singh married his daughter, Datar Kaur, to Ranjit Singh, Kharals chipped in the dowry, as a good will gesture. Rai Saleh Khan was succeeded by his nephew Rai Ahmed Khan Kharal, instead of his son. When Ranjit Singh won over Punjab, he travelled across his kingdom and met local nobility. During his visit to Sayyedwala, he met Rai Ahmed Khan Kharal and called him a brother. 1947 was almost a century away

The battle for Punjab was characterised with patience and perseverance. It graduated from the treaty of Bherowal to the fluttering union jack in Lahore as a series of defeated resistances. A little later, in 1857, the war of Independence broke out and Punjab too, felt the heat of the actions in Dehli and Meeruth. The Raj pre-empted violence to suppress any likely insurrection in this area and constructed jails in every district. One such jail was located in Gogera.



The first shot of independence was fired in May, 1857 at Barrakpur. A few weeks later, Ahmed Khan was summoned by Berkley, the administrative officer at Gogera. He asked for the horses and men to battle freedom fighters. His demand was met by Ahmed Khan’s remarks:

"Kharals do not share wife, horse and land with anyone".

After a week, many innocent men, women and children were imprisoned by the British in Gogera. They tried explaining their innocence but no one listened. Lastly, Ahmed Khan, along his Fatiana friends attacked the Gogera prison and rescued all the inmates on 26 July 1857.

The Raj ran out of patience and started taking on Ahmed Khan. The Berkley of Gogera wrote to the Martin of Sahiwal, who then informed Hamilton in Multan. Within a week, Ahmed Khan was the new-found symbol of resistance against the British. The age when men finally concede was the age when Ahmed Khan fought against the superpower of his time. As the Raj recruited the young and mighty for the battle of Punjab, Ahmed Khan had turned 80. _Rai Ahmed aakhay, Jamna tay mar vanjhna_ _Aye naal thokar day bhaj jaona,_ _Kangan aye kachi wang daa,_ _Aakhay larr(d) saa`n naal angrez day,_ _Jeevai`n baldee shama tay josh patang daa_

Whoever is born, shall die, says Ahmed Khan, It can’t even stand a thud, much like the house of cards, (He vows) I shall fight the British, with the vigour that a moth fights with the flame

What followed next was the tale of courage, deceit and hegemony.


—-

Part II;
http://www.dawn.com/news/793732

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## El Sidd

TMA said:


> You sound like a mulla...



No. Actually a jewish Professor told me this. 
A Professor of History and Biblical Archeology.

Now you can claim me as a Yahoo agent too


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## TMA

El Sidd said:


> No. Actually a jewish Professor told me this.
> A Professor of History and Biblical Archeology.
> 
> Now you can claim me as a Yahoo agent too


i had my doubts...


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## El Sidd

TMA said:


> i had my doubts...



All you have is doubts man.

Believe the best plausible doubt. Be at Peace with it.


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## TMA

El Sidd said:


> All you have is doubts man.
> 
> Believe the best plausible doubt. Be at Peace with it.


of course...I have no proof...and I am at peace with it...

i also don't think that Cyrus was Zulqarnain, but what matters is who is the Second Zulqarnain?


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## El Sidd

TMA said:


> of course...I have no proof...and I am at peace with it...
> 
> i also don't think that Cyrus was Zulqarnain, but what matters is who is the Second Zulqarnain?



I am busy with the first


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## Sine Nomine

@dsr478 Great thread mate.
I feel sorry for those guys,who can't resist spoiling every thread.

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## TMA

El Sidd said:


> I am busy with the first


Why? You live in the age of the second.


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## Rana4pak

Most of people are punjabi rajputs like raja Porus rai Ahmed khan Kharal.dulla Bhatti.ranjeet SINGH.sultan Sarang Khan.major Shabbir shaeed .aziz Bhatti shaeed.General tikka khan.khan liaqat ali khan.doctor Abdul Qadeer khan.etc


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## Ocean

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> @dsr478 Great thread mate.
> I feel sorry for those guys,who can't resist spoiling every thread.


Cant believe even a topic like this can put some backsides on fire. They cant stand pakistanis celebrating their history and punjabi history and with lame arse statements trying to rain on the party.

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## Taimur Khurram

Rana4pak said:


> Most of people are punjabi rajputs like raja Porus rai Ahmed khan Kharal.dulla Bhatti.ranjeet SINGH.sultan Sarang Khan.major Shabbir shaeed .aziz Bhatti shaeed.General tikka khan.khan liaqat ali khan.doctor Abdul Qadeer khan.etc



Asalamu Alaikum

Rajputs did not exist during the time of Porus, Ahmed Khan Kharral was a Jat and Sarang Khan was a Gakhar.

I can only confirm that Tikka, Abdullah Bhatti, Shabbir Sharif, and Raza Aziz Bhatti were Rajput. I do not know about the others.


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## Vapnope

I wish OP had mentioned General Akhtar hussain Malik and Brigadier Abdul Ali Malik (Winner of Chowinda) as well.

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## Rana4pak

dsr478 said:


> Rajputs did not exist during the time of Porus, Ahmed Khan Kharral was a Jat and Sarang Khan was a Gakhar.
> 
> I can only confirm that Tikka, Abdullah Bhatti, Shabbir Sharif, and Raza Aziz Bhatti were Rajput. I do not know about the others.


Dude rajputs were present way before raja Porus .kharral is sub caste of rajputs same is Gakhar.just do some research before make any conclusion.

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## Maarkhoor

dsr478 said:


> Abdullah Bhatti
> 
> He rebelled against Mughal emeperor Akbar, and is often compared to Robin Hood due to his social banditry. Many folklore tales speak highly of his deeds. When he was hung, his last words that were uttered were "No honourable son of Punjab will ever sell the soil of Punjab".


He is dacait and plunderer should not be listed on Punjabi nobles


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## Pakistani E

Vapnope said:


> I wish OP had mentioned General Akhtar hussain Malik and Brigadier Abdul Ali Malik (Winner of Chowinda) as well.



These folks are Punjabis too, but maybe OP forgot:

Sir Chaudhry Muhammad Zafrullah Khan (Pakistan's first foreign minister, President of the UN General Assembley 1962-63.)






Dr Abdus Salam (Nobel Prize in Physics) 






Lt General Akhtar Hussain Malik (War hero, Operation Gibraltar)





Lt General Abdul Ali Malik Hero of Chawinda





General Iftikhar Khan Janjua shaheed (Most senior Pakistani officer to be killed in action, Hero of Rann of Kutch, martyred in Kashmir during the Battle of Chamb 1971.)

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## Taimur Khurram

Maarkhoor said:


> He is dacait and plunderer should not be listed on Punjabi nobles



Asalamu Alaikum

He helped the poor, and freed women from slavery. The Mughals also killed some of his family prior to his banditry.

His reasons for engaging in violence are at the very least somewhat understandable. Also, a lot of Punjabis do take him as a hero already, there are loads of stories about him.



Rana4pak said:


> Dude rajputs were present way before raja Porus .kharral is sub caste of rajputs same is Gakhar.just do some research before make any conclusion.



Rajputs only came into being during the Islamic period, therefore Porus was not a Rajput. He could be the ancestor of some Rajputs, but there's literally no way to be sure about that.

Gakhars are their own tribe.


----------



## Maarkhoor

dsr478 said:


> Asalamu Alaikum
> 
> He helped the poor, and freed women from slavery. The Mughals also killed some of his family prior to his banditry.
> 
> His reasons for engaging in violence are at the very least somewhat understandable. Also, a lot of Punjabis do take him as a hero already, there are loads of stories about him.


Every dakait even today share their loot with the poor so that these people remain faithful to him and save him from authorities.



dsr478 said:


> His reasons for engaging in violence are at the very least somewhat understandable. Also, a lot of Punjabis do take him as a hero already, there are loads of stories about him.


He used to loot Mughal caravans and girls, even he used to kidnap good looking girls.

When Mughal really wants to arrest him he ran away and hide his moms parents house....then same poor people started to call him names, forced by the people he attack first time Mughals from first time one to one and got killed.


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## Taimur Khurram

Maarkhoor said:


> He used to loot Mughal caravans and girls, even he used to kidnap good looking girls.
> 
> When Mughal really wants to arrest him he ran away and hide his moms parents house....then same poor people started to call him names, forced by the people he attack first time Mughals from first time one to one and got killed.



No, he freed them from slavery.

As for the latter story, nobody's perfect.



*Tufail Muhammad*

He recaptured a post taken by Hindustanis in East Pakistan during the 50's, despite taking several bullets he kept on pushing, taking out machine gun posts with grenades and he even killed the enemy Commander with his helmet. He soon died afterwards due to his sustained injuries, and ended up winning Nishan-e-Haider. He's the only Pakistani to win such an award outside of wartime.

http://www.pakarmymuseum.com/exhibits/major-tufail-muhammad-shaheed/

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## M. Sarmad

LoveIcon said:


> Ranjit Singh is also part of Punjabi history if it's not selective recognition.



The emergence of the sovereign state of Punjab in 1799 under Maharaja Ranjit Singh was a moment of crowning glory in the evolution of a distinctive Punjabi identity.

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## Maarkhoor

Sher Shah Awan said:


> These folks are Punjabis too, but maybe OP forgot:
> 
> Sir Chaudhry Muhammad Zafrullah Khan (Pakistan's first foreign minister, President of the UN General Assembley 1962-63.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dr Abdus Salam (Nobel Prize in Physics)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lt General Akhtar Hussain Malik (War hero, Operation Gibraltar)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lt General Abdul Ali Malik Hero of Chawinda
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> General Iftikhar Khan Janjua shaheed (Most senior Pakistani officer to be killed in action, Hero of Rann of Kutch, martyred in Kashmir during the Battle of Chamb 1971.)


Proud of non-Muslim Punjabi heroes.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Rana4pak said:


> Most of people are punjabi rajputs like raja Porus rai Ahmed khan Kharal.dulla Bhatti.ranjeet SINGH.sultan Sarang Khan.major Shabbir shaeed .aziz Bhatti shaeed.General tikka khan.khan liaqat ali khan.doctor Abdul Qadeer khan.etc


Ranjit Singh was a sansi.
Liaqat Ali Khan was an Urdu speaker from Delhi.
Dr Abdul qadir khan is an Urdu speaker “pathan” from Bhopal..



dsr478 said:


> Asalamu Alaikum
> 
> He helped the poor, and freed women from slavery. The Mughals also killed some of his family prior to his banditry.
> 
> His reasons for engaging in violence are at the very least somewhat understandable. Also, a lot of Punjabis do take him as a hero already, there are loads of stories about him.
> 
> 
> 
> Rajputs only came into being during the Islamic period, therefore Porus was not a Rajput. He could be the ancestor of some Rajputs, but there's literally no way to be sure about that.
> 
> Gakhars are their own tribe.


Rajputs were there much before Islamic period.



Maarkhoor said:


> Every dakait even today share their loot with the poor so that these people remain faithful to him and save him from authorities.
> 
> 
> He used to loot Mughal caravans and girls, even he used to kidnap good looking girls.
> 
> When Mughal really wants to arrest him he ran away and hide his moms parents house....then same poor people started to call him names, forced by the people he attack first time Mughals from first time one to one and got killed.


Don’t reinvent history..

Had he been what you allege.. he wouldn’t have folk stories and songs tributed to him.

Neither would lohri and other panjabi festivals being celebrated in his honour.

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## Taimur Khurram

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Ranjit Singh was a sansi.
> Liaqat Ali Khan was an Urdu speaker from Delhi.
> Dr Abdul qadir khan is an Urdu speaker “pathan” from Bhopal..
> 
> 
> Rajputs were there much before Islamic period.
> 
> 
> Don’t reinvent history..
> 
> Had he been what you allege.. he wouldn’t have folk stories and songs tributed to him.
> 
> Neither would lohri and other panjabi festivals being celebrated in his honour.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajput

Scholarly opinions differ on when the term Rajput acquired hereditary connotations and came to denote a clan-based community. Historian Brajadulal Chattopadhyaya, based on his analysis of inscriptions (primarily from Rajasthan), believed that by the 12th century, the term "_rajaputra_" was associated with fortified settlements, kin-based landholding, and other features that later became indicative of the Rajput status.[16] According to Chattopadhyaya, the title acquired "an element of heredity" from c. 1300.[23] A later study by of 11th-14th century inscriptions from western and central India, by Michael B. Bednar, concludes that the designations such as "_rajaputra_", "_thakkura_" and "_rauta_" were not necessarily hereditary during this period.[23]

During its formative stages, the Rajput class was quite assimilative and absorbed people from a wide range of lineages.[19] However, by the late 16th century, it had become genealogically rigid, based on the ideas of blood purity.[24] The membership of the Rajput class was now largely inherited rather than acquired through military achievements.[23] A major factor behind this development was the consolidation of the Mughal Empire, whose rulers had great interest in genealogy. As the various Rajput chiefs became Mughal feduatories, they no longer engaged in major conflicts with each other. This decreased the possibility of achieving prestige through military action, and made hereditary prestige more important.[25]

The word "Rajput" thus acquired its present-day meaning in the 16th century.[26][27] During 16th and 17th centuries, the Rajput rulers and their bards (_charans_) sought to legitimize the Rajput socio-political status on the basis of descent and kinship.[28] They fabricated genealogies linking the Rajput families to the ancient dynasties, and associated them with myths of origins that established their Kshatriya status.[23][29] This led to the emergence of what Indologist Dirk Kolff calls the "Rajput Great Tradition", which accepted only hereditary claims to the Rajput identity, and fostered a notion of eliteness and exclusivity.[30] The legendary epic poem _Prithviraj Raso_, which depicts warriors from several different Rajput clans as associates of Prithviraj Chauhan, fostered a sense of unity among these clans.[31] The text thus contributed to the consolidation of the Rajput identity by offering these clans a shared history.[16]

Despite these developments, migrant soldiers made new claims to the Rajput status until as late as the 19th century.[24] In the 19th century, the colonial administrators of India re-imagined the Rajputs as similar to the Anglo-Saxon knights. They compiled the Rajput genealogies in the process of settling land disputes, surveying castes and tribes, and writing history. These genealogies became the basis of distinguishing between the "genuine" and the "spurious" Rajput clans.[32]

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## Maarkhoor

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Don’t reinvent history..
> 
> Had he been what you allege.. he wouldn’t have folk stories and songs tributed to him.
> 
> Neither would lohri and other panjabi festivals being celebrated in his honour.


He was Jutt and Sikh glorified him since he fought against Muslims and as per Sikhs Mughal prosecute them.
Simple dushman ka dushman hamara bhai...

He was infamous for conducting robberies and kidnapping girls, looting nearly unarmed female and children caravan of Mughals but when they sent army he hides his naani's house and same Sikh started to make fun of him and out of shame when he came out of his hide ...he was killed.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Maarkhoor said:


> He was Jutt and Sikh glorified him since he fought against Muslims and as per Sikhs Mughal prosecute them.
> Simple dushman ka dushman hamara bhai...
> 
> He was infamous for conducting robberies and kidnapping girls, looting nearly unarmed female and children caravan of Mughals but when they sent army he hides his naani's house and same Sikh started to make fun of him and out of shame when he came out of his hide ...he was killed.


He was a Muslim ... he’s buried in miani Sb graveyard Lahore.

He wasn’t a jutt but a rajput and not all Sikh are Jatt to begin with.

He wasn’t kidnapping or rapping anybody.. don’t me Fukien foolish.

He however did kidnap Akbar’s wives!
His father was the chief of sandalbar region and was killed by mughals.. 

He also didn’t give any taxes to the Mughals etc.

I don’t know where you are getting your info from.. but from old folks of Pak Panjab I’ve heard the entire story and actually visited his grave on Lahore.

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## Rana4pak

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Ranjit Singh was a sansi.
> Liaqat Ali Khan was an Urdu speaker from Delhi.
> Dr Abdul qadir khan is an Urdu speaker “pathan” from Bhopal..
> 
> 
> Rajputs were there much before Islamic period.
> 
> 
> Don’t reinvent history..
> 
> Had he been what you allege.. he wouldn’t have folk stories and songs tributed to him.
> 
> Neither would lohri and other panjabi festivals being celebrated in his honour.


Brother just search at YouTube you will find dr Abdul Qadeer speech in his on words he said he is rajput.liaqat Ali khan is renowned rajput he had a lot of property on other side of Punjab .just do some research.sikh is religion not a caste ranjeet SINGH is also rajput .and i have no intentions to include any body into rajput clan weather he is somebody’s or no body.


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## Maarkhoor

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> He was a Muslim ... he’s buried in miani Sb graveyard Lahore.
> 
> He wasn’t a jutt but a rajput and not all Sikh are Jatt to begin with.
> 
> He wasn’t kidnapping or rapping anybody.. don’t me Fukien foolish.
> 
> He however did kidnap Akbar’s wives!
> His father was the chief of sandalbar region and was killed by mughals..
> 
> He also didn’t give any taxes to the Mughals etc.
> 
> I don’t know where you are getting your info from.. but from old folks of Pak Panjab I’ve heard the entire story and actually visited his grave on Lahore.


Bro he became Dakait and started loot and plunder......He got fame because Sikhs glorify him since he is fighting against Muslims....Anyways you keep your own views hence I have my own understandings...He was in the same league of Shiva Gee aka mountain rat..who loot caravans of Mughals and hides in mountains...

Have a nice good night....


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## Suriya

Kaptaan said:


> One of ancient histories great characters - Pakistani's and in particular those who are of Punjabi extraction need to celebrate this chap and 'own' him. All too often aborginals from Gangadesh claim him as theirs. Porus put up a fight against the world conquerer Alexander the "Great" that he had *not *faced anywhere else. What a epic battle and people from Jhelum should be proud that they almost brought the mighty Greek army on it's knees.


*Jahan Dal Dal Pe Sone ki Chidiya Karti hai Basera - Wo Bharat Desh India Hai MERA*
*



*


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## Indus Pakistan

Suriya said:


> Jahan


What is the meaning of posting this ganga gibberish?

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## El Sidd

Suriya said:


> *Jahan Dal Dal Pe Sone ki Chidiya Karti hai Basera - Wo Bharat Desh India Hai MERA*
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *



Its a cheap Market for capitalists. Nothing glorified about that


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## Suriya

Kaptaan said:


> What is the meaning of posting this ganga gibberish?





El Sidd said:


> Its a cheap Market for capitalists. Nothing glorified about that



This song is from the movie Sikander -E - Azam and song features how Hindu king Porus and his sons put of a brave fight against Sikander for their beloved mother land Bharat.


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## El Sidd

Suriya said:


> This song is from the movie Sikander -E - Azam and song features how Hindu king Porus and his sons put of a brave fight against Sikander for their beloved mother land Bharat.



Stories are plenty man. 

You need to tell me how did ancient Sub continent People carve 3d Stone figuirines. 

What the hell happened that such knowledge got lost?

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## Indus Pakistan

Suriya said:


> This song is from the movie Sikander -E - Azam and song features how Hindu king Porus and his sons put of a brave fight against Sikander for their beloved mother land Bharat.


Okay so you seriously placed a Bollywood movie and song to try to leach off Porus? Give it a break okay. Hinduism is a term that only gained currency in the last few centuries. It did not exist 2000 years ago. And Porus was ruler of a* tiny* entity not much larger then* Jhelum district* ~ forget about Punjab and you would need to be smoking something real strong to believe that Porus fought for this Bharat or whatever ...

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## Taimur Khurram

Suriya said:


> This song is from the movie Sikander -E - Azam and song features how Hindu king Porus and his sons put of a brave fight against Sikander for their beloved mother land Bharat.



Please don't infect my thread with your crap, thanks.

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## dreamer4eva

Nice thread. Punjabis have been living in 2 countries for only 70 odd years so all prominent Punjabis should be included no matter they are Muslim, Hindu or Sikhs. Mirza Jatt, Sultan Bahu, Bulle Shah, Shaheed Bhagat Singh, Jagga Daaku and Shiv Kumar Batalvi are very popular personalities in Indian Punjab especially with my mob (Sikhs)..


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## Taimur Khurram

dreamer4eva said:


> Nice thread. Punjabis have been living in 2 countries for only 70 odd years so all prominent Punjabis should be included no matter they are Muslim, Hindu or Sikhs. Mirza Jatt, Sultan Bahu, Bulle Shah, Shaheed Bhagat Singh, Jagga Daaku and Shiv Kumar Batalvi are very popular personalities in Indian Punjab especially with my mob (Sikhs)..



You can post about them if you wish, but with one rule, no figures from the Sikh Empire.

I don't mind peaceful Sikh guru's though, they did some good things and weren't running around turning Masjids into stables or banning the Azaan.


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## Taimur Khurram

*Fariduddin Ganjshakar
*
He was a famous Sufi preacher and poet. He's also considered the father of Punjabi nationalism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fariduddin_Ganjshakar

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## H!TchHiker

Maarkhoor said:


> He was Jutt and Sikh glorified him since he fought against Muslims and as per Sikhs Mughal prosecute them.
> Simple dushman ka dushman hamara bhai...
> 
> He was infamous for conducting robberies and kidnapping girls, looting nearly unarmed female and children caravan of Mughals but when they sent army he hides his naani's house and same Sikh started to make fun of him and out of shame when he came out of his hide ...he was killed.


Mashallah .....Which book are you reading ? Dullah bhatti/Abdullah Bhatti son of Rai Farred was not Muslim and fighting against MSULIM MUGHAL AKBAR ,inventor of deen elahi.
Shabash ha bhai..

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## Taimur Khurram

*Muin Ul Mulk
*
He was the Mughal governor of Punjab, and had managed to defeat Ahmed Shah Abdali in battle. Ahmed Shah Abdali soon came back and defeated him several years later, but Muin Ul Mulk put up such a good fight that Abdali appointed him as provincial governor on his behalf, and bestowed him the title of "Farzand Khan Bahadur Rustam-e-Hind". Consequently, Muin Ul Mulk held a reception at Lahore in honour of Abdali. 

He also fought frequently against the Sikhs. 

http://military.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Lahore_(1752)


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## Taimur Khurram

I will also do the history of some of the tribes in the Punjab.

*Gujjars
*
The Gujjars are a nomadic tribe that exist primarily in Pakistan, but also have significant numbers in Afghanistan and Hindustan.

They are believed to be the descendants of Central Asians who migrated to the region during the invasions of the Huna people (they were most likely an allied tribe in their confederation, such as the Khazars) and intermarried with local Indo-Aryans, hence why they speak an Indo-Aryan language (Gojri). This is strengthened by the fact that some of the earliest references to Gujjars in the region appear shortly after the Huna invasions.

The Gujjar language (Gojrj) is also interesting since roughly 10-13% of its words (depending on the dialect) actually come from Pashto, suggesting that the original abode of the Gujjars (after they came from Central Asia and intermarried with the locals) would be eastern Afghanistan/KPK/FATA where the Pashto language would have influenced them (perhaps they may have even occasionally intermarried), since large numbers of Gujjars are found there and it seems strange that Gojri dialects in places like Gilgit Baltistan and Azad Kashmir (where there are next to no Pashtuns) have such a large number of words borrowed from Pashto. There's also the fact that many of the Gujjars of eastern Afghanistan, KPK and FATA consider themselves to be some of the earliest inhabitants of the region, and the fact that the traditional migration route for Central Asians to Pakistan was via the Khyber Pass (in fact, the Hunas used this specific pass to enter Pakistan).

The Gujjars established many dynasties across Pakistan and Hindustan, such as the Shah Mir dynasty, Tomara dynasty, and Chavda dynasty. Many places such as Gujjar Khan, Gujrat and Gujranwala are also named after them. The Gujjars also fought in large numbers in Muhammad Bin Qasim's army, and have a played a significant role in Pakistan's armed forces, with Tufail Muhammad (Nishan-e-Haider winner) being a Gujjar and large portions of the Pakistani military being Gujjars. Gujjars in Afghanistan also fought hard against the USSR as part of the Afghan Mujahadeen.

There have also been plenty of famous Gujjars, such as Shoaib Akhtar (fastest bowler in history) and Rehmat Ali (author of the Pakistan declaration).

https://gujjarnation.blogspot.co.uk/2014/12/list-of-famous-gujjar-and-bureaucrats.html

https://www.sil.org/system/files/re...6620875850976172253716042392/32846_SSNP03.pdf

https://jktribals.page.tl/History-of-Gujjars.htm

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## Talwar e Pakistan

El Sidd said:


> So is punjabi an ethinicity?


A Punjabi is anyone who lives in Punjab. Punjab has many ethnicities, tribes, cultures and languages.



Rana4pak said:


> Dude rajputs were present way before raja Porus .kharral is sub caste of rajputs same is Gakhar.just do some research before make any conclusion.


Rajputs, Jats and Gujjars are related and thought to have migrated to the region in 2nd Century BCE.



Suriya said:


> This song is from the movie Sikander -E - Azam and song features how Hindu king Porus and his sons put of a brave fight against Sikander for their beloved mother land Bharat.


Porus was not Hindu, look at what Hindu texts say of his capital city (Sagala) and their people.

Neither did he fight for supposed "Mama Bharat" as no such thing exists or existed except in Ganga texts and dreams of Hindu nationalists.

The video showcases how India is trying to derive it's national identity from the history, heritage and people of others.

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## Taimur Khurram

*Awans
*
They are regarded as being of either Arab or Rajput origin, and dwell within every province of the country in fairly significant numbers, other than Gilgit-Baltistan. The tribe itself would have likely originally formed in its current state in northern Punjab, making them one of the few tribes of the Punjab that can be counted as at least somewhat native in origin. 

The Awans have historically been land-owners and soldiers, with a strong martial history and a good representation among the Pakistani armed forces. French political scientist Christophe Jaffrelot (who specialises in Pakistan and Hindustan) had this to say about them:

*"The Awan deserve close attention, because of their historical importance and, above all, because they settled in the west, right up to the edge of Baluchi and Pashtun territory. Legend has it that their origins go back to Imam Ali and his second wife, Hanafiya. Historians describe them as valiant warriors and farmers who imposed their supremacy on their close kin the Janjuas in part of the Salt Range, and established large colonies all along the Indus to Sind, and a densely populated centre not far from Lahore."*

Famous Awans would include Major Muhammad Akram Shaheed (Nishan-e-Haider recipient) and Major General Amir Faisal Alavi (FGO of the SSG).

http://www.awans.com.pk/awan-history/

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## Taimur Khurram

@waz 

Asalamu Alaikum

Can we make this a sticky? I feel like it's important. Also, could you please make all the names of the figures mentioned in the OP *bold like this please? Thanks (I'd do it myself but for some reason I can't).*


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## Taimur Khurram

*Rajputs*

The Rajputs are a famous tribe that exist across Pakistan and Hindustan. They are well known for being good soldiers as well as fierce resistors to any attempt to conquer them.

In terms of origin, the Rajputs are widely regarded as an amalgamation of many of the different ruling clans across Hindustan during the Islamic era. They are closely related to Jats and Gujjars, sharing many clans with them (e.g the Tors).

There have been many famous Rajputs throughout history, such as Jam Nizammudin (Sultan of Sindh), Shabbir Sharif (Nishan-e-Haider recipient), Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto (Pakistani PM), Isa Khan (Bengali chieftain), etc. The Rajputs have also founded many dynasties throughout history, such as the Samma dynasty or Muzaffarid dynasty. They also make up a significant proportion of the Pakistani military.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajput
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Rajput


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## AsianLion

Punjabis have been the most lucky ones in history, brave, loyal, rich, martial race, enjoyed power and has been the core ethnic group to dominate for centuries now.

Punjabis have shaped the entire Central Asian, Subcontinent upto Bangladesh and beyond in Middle east.

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## Taimur Khurram

AsianUnion said:


> Punjabis have been the most lucky ones in history, brave, loyal, rich, martial race, enjoyed power and has been the core ethnic group to dominate for centuries now.



Asalamu Alaikum

Yes, we have a rich history. It's a shame most of us do not particularly care about it.

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## Proudpakistaniguy

dsr478 said:


> Asalamu Alaikum
> 
> Yes, we have a rich history. It's a shame most of us do not particularly care about it.


Majority Pakistani place their religious identity i.e Islam or their national identity (country/ethnic group) above everything else i.e caste/tribal identity/clans etc though Islam did in fact support and recognize our tribal identity. calling ourselves Gujar, janjua, Awan, Jats, Bhatti, Minhas is simply a matter of lineal heritage or martial upbringing which is not exclusive to particular religion or country. If Hindus has concept of Kshatriya then Muslims have concept of Mujahid.

Many Muslim Rajput kings changed their names after converting to Islam but also have retained their ancestral/lineal titles. Its common for average people to not know the background of their caste/clan/tribe. I know many people in my native village matore who proudly call themselves Janjua but 99 percent would have zero knowledge about history of Janjua i.e where they came from, when embraced Islam, where they got settled etc. Its true for others castes/tribes in every other village of Pakistan. People should get information about these just for sake of knowledge and understanding.

You started similar thread previously ( in wrong section though) where i posted details..should probably need to merge with this topic

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/the-origins-of-tribes-across-pakistan-and-hindustan.525410/

Photohar region is not much bigger but when i look at tribes and clans of the photohar plateau( https://newpakhistorian.wordpress.com/2014/12/03/tribes-and-clans-of-the-pothohar-plateau/) then its so much diverse that it makes me wonder how diverse other Pakistan would be

add these people in Rajputs list

*Notable Rajputs *

1) General Tikka Khan( Narma Rajput village of Jochha Mamdot in Tehsil Kallar Syedan district Rawalpindi)






2) Sawar Muhammad Hussain Shaheed Nishan e haider( Janjua Rajput from Jatli, Gujar khan, District Rawalpindi)






3) General Asif Nawaz Janjua ( Janjua Rajput Chakri rajgan, Jhelum) holder of Sitara-e-Basalat (Bar), Hilal-e-Imtiaz (Military) and the Nishan-e-Imtiaz (Military) honours.







4) Raja Aziz Bhatti shaheed holder of Nishan e haider ( Bhatti rajput fromKharian Gujraat district )






5) Rashid Minhas Shaheed holder of Nishan e haider ( Minhas Rajput born in karchi and early ducation in Rawalpindi)






6)_ Major General Iftikhar Khan Janjua shaheed holder of Hilal-e-Jurat & Bar, Sitara-i-Pakistan, Sitara-i-Quaid-i-Azam hero of Rann of Kutch ( Janjua Rajput Sargodha District)






7)_ Raja Muhammad Sarwar Khan Shaheed holder of Nishan haider ( Rajput Singhori village, Tehsil Gujar khan, rawalpindi district)






8) Major Shabir Sharif shaeed holder of Nishan-e-Haider *and* Sitara-e-Jurat ( Rajput from Kunjah , Gujraat district)






9) Naik saif Ali Janjua Shaheed holder of hilal e kashmir ( Janjua Rajput from Khandbaz Tehsil Nakial,Azad Jammu & Kashmir)






10) Khudadad Khan first Muslim who got Victoria cross , the highest military award for gallantry in the face of the enemy given to british and common wealth forces ( Rajput from village dab chakwal District)






11) Major General shah nawaz khan freedom fighter ( Janjua rajput born in matore, Kahuta, Rawalpindi district). Shah Rukh khan mother lateefa begum was his adopted daughter







11) General Zaheer Ul Islam former ISI chief ( Janjua rajput Matore , Kahuta)






12) Amir Khan boxer ( Janjua rajput Matore kahuta)












Then you have many more like
General Afzal Mehdi Khan Janjua of the Jhelum Janjuas Naqi Rajgaan, was honored the Sitara-e-Jurat (Star of Courage) in 1971 Indo-Pak War which is the third highest military award of Pakistan.

Lieutenant General Afzal Mehdi Janjua has served in ISI during Russian invasion to the Afghanistan and played a vital role in ISI operations hence regarded as the Hero of Afghan War.

Maj Gen Nasser Khan Janjua (National security adviser present, ex vice chief of General Staff, holder of Hila e imtiaz)

General (Retired) Ahmad Kamal Khan - former Deputy Chief of Army Staff Janjua from Matore, Tehsil Kahuta, District Rawalpindi

Air Vice Marshal (Retired) Raja Aftab Iqbal Hilal e Imtiaz( Chip rajput )

Maj Gen (R)Muhammad Salim Arshad from Matore etc etc

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## Kambojaric

*Ustad Ahmad Lahori*

Chief architect of the Taj Mahal, he was a senior architect in the court of Shah Jahan.

"Thanks to the spirit of research and luckily for us the architect of the Taj has been identified. And he is nadir-ul-asr Ustad Ahmad Lahori ...
In 1931 Sayyid Sulaiman Nadvi drew the attention of the scholars towards Lahori as a great architect of Shah Jahan's reign in an article "Lahore ka e M'emar Khandan" read before Adara i maarif i Islamia Lahore. Dr Abdullah Chugtai took his doctorate from Paris in 1937 on the subject of the history of Taj. His thesis establishes the fact that Ahmad Lahori, who held the title of nadir-ul asr (wonder of the age) is the architect of the Taj. Though the name of Ahmad Lahori is occasionally mentioned in the contemporary Persian chronicals like Amal-i-Saleh of Mohammad Saleh Kamboh, it is diwan e mahandis of Hafiz Lutfullah Mahandis which removes all ambiguities and uncertanties regarding the creator of the Taj Mahal."

Page 89, Reading in Indian History, edited by Mohammad Yasin, Madhvi Yasin

Lahori also designed the famous Mughal Red Fort in Delhi, the seat of Mugal power for centuries.

https://www.sbs.com.au/yourlanguage/hindi/en/audiotrack/magnificent-red-fort-delhi-part-1

Speaking of Muhammad Saleh Kamboh, he was another Lahori in the court of Shah Jahan. Saleh was the calligraphist and official biographer of the Mughal Emperor as well as the teacher of Aurengzeb. He also had Masjid Saleh Kamboh built in androon shehr (walled city) Lahore (which is in terrible need of repair). The area still has a sizeable Kamboh population.

http://destinationpak.com/blog/saleh-kamboh-mosque-a-page-from-mugal-era/in/related/

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## AsianLion

General ex COAS Raheel Shariff is a profound near perfect Punjabi of all sorts.

Most of the millions of Punjab's look upto a character, intelligent, brave, loyal like Raheel Shariff.

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## Sine Nomine

AsianUnion said:


> General ex COAS Raheel Shariff is a profound near perfect Punjabi of all sorts.
> 
> Most of the millions of Punjab's look upto a character, intelligent, brave, loyal like Raheel Shariff.

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## hazzam

Kaptaan said:


> What is the meaning of posting this ganga gibberish?




mullagiri is far far different from history .mulla why you leave ranjit sikh ?


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## Taimur Khurram

hazzam said:


> why you leave ranjit sikh ?



Because he banned the Azaan, turned Masjids into stables, and fought against Muslims. 

Durrani is a much bigger hero to me than Ranjit, even if he isn't ethnically Punjabi (he was born in Multan though). Him being Muslim makes me identify more with him than a guy who oppressed Muslims.


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## hazzam

dsr478 said:


> Because he banned the Azaan, turned Masjids into stables, and fought against Muslims.
> 
> Durrani is a much bigger hero to me than Ranjit, even if he isn't ethnically Punjabi (he was born in Multan though). Him being Muslim makes me identify more with him than a guy who oppressed Muslims.




so you are writing punjabi muslim only history ? for mullas ? .


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## Taimur Khurram

hazzam said:


> so you are writing punjabi muslim only history ? for mullas ? .



If you read my OP, you would see I included non Muslims like Porus and Kautilya. 

It's primarily centred around Muslim Punjabis because most Punjabis are Muslim, not Sikh.


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## hazzam

dsr478 said:


> If you read my OP, you would see I included non Muslims like Porus and Kautilya.
> 
> It's primarily centred around Muslim Punjabis because most Punjabis are Muslim, not Sikh.



your history has very narrow outlook , how can you separate hindus and sikhs from punjab history ? punjab is spread across the border .


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## Taimur Khurram

hazzam said:


> your history has very narrow outlook , how can you separate hindus and sikhs from punjab history ? punjab is spread across the border .



Because I'm Muslim first and foremost, and the fact is that ever since Islam came to this region, Muslims and non-Muslims haven't ever really been friendly with each other. Therefore, I am keeping it restricted to Muslims and non-Muslims from prior to Islams arrival in the area.


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## hazzam

dsr478 said:


> Because I'm Muslim first and foremost, and the fact is that ever since Islam came to this region, Muslims and non-Muslims haven't ever really been friendly with each other. Therefore, I am keeping it restricted to Muslims and non-Muslims from prior to Islams arrival in the area.



i see ,
if you want to be intellectually honest and correct ,
then your topic should not be *"history of punjabis " *it should be " *history of muslim punjabis " 
*


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## Taimur Khurram

hazzam said:


> i see ,
> if you want to be intellectually honest and correct ,
> then your topic should not be *"history of punjabis " *it should be " *history of muslim punjabis " *



No, because Porus and Kautilya were not Muslim.


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## Talwar e Pakistan

dsr478 said:


> No, because Porus and Kautilya were not Muslim.


You should read up about the Kings of Sialkot and Taxila. It's very interesting.

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## Indus Priest King

Ranjit Singh should be discussed. He's Punjabi as well. Keep your religion aside please. Thanks.

How was the Punjabi nation formed? Origin and history?







This is a very difficult question to answer as there is no consensus on this and studies are still being done to determine the genetic history of Punjabis. Unlike Sindhis, Baloch and Pashtuns who have a common genetic background, culture and history, Punjabis are unique in that they're not exactly "one nation" but rather a collection of people who share a similar culture and language. Punjabis represent a complex admixture of ethnic castes and groups unlike any other in Pakistan. Before moving on to describing Punjabi people, we first need to define what Punjab actually is.

* ~ Punjab ~*
What we know as Punjab today is not actually the historic Punjab. The modern-day borders of the Province of Punjab are based on the borders of British Punjab. This was done when the British captured Punjab in 1845 and hastily made the provincial borders with complete disregard to language, culture and history. For example the State of Bahawalpur was completely absorbed into British Punjab, despite the fact Bahawalpur had very limited ties to Punjab. The actual historic Punjab consists of regions around Lahore. These regions include Sialkot, Gujranwala, Gujrat, Okara, Kasur, Faisalabad along with Amritsar, Ludhiana, Bathinda and Jallandar in East Punjab. This is where the traditional tribes and clans of Punjab come from (ie. Punjabi people) and where Punjabi culture emerged from. Even still, within this geographical area, the cultures and people differ among one another. The rest of what we know as Punjab is not actually Punjab...it is populated by Pashtuns, Baloch, Potohar/Hindkowan people and Seraiki people. North and northwestern Punjab (the Potohar Plateau ie. Talagang, Chakwal, Mianwali, Taxila, Rawalpindi etc.) has a culture of its own (a mix of Punjabi+Pashtun culture) and they speak Potohari/Pahari language or Hindko. South and southwestern Punjab (ie. Seraikistan) has a culture of its own (a mix of Punjabi+Baloch+Sindhi cultures) and they speak either Seraiki or Balochi.

* ~ Punjabis ~*
In October of this year, I posted a lengthy study entitled the "Genetic Journey of Pakistanis" which details who Pakistanis actually are genetically. In regards to Punjabis, I mentioned that Punjabi-speaking individuals from Punjab represented a complex admixture of ethnic castes and groups and would be analyzed separately. At present, these these studies are still being analyzed. However, we do know some basic information. Punjabis can generally be broken down into four sub-tribes:

* ~~ Arain ~~*
Origin: Sindh? Persia? Central Asia?
Groups: Mian, Mehar Dhankhar

The origin of the Arain community is uncertain, with some members of the community claiming a connection with the Rajputs. Others, with whom the historian and political scientist Christophe Jaffrelot agrees, believe that they are displaced farming communities who moved to Punjab from Sindh and Multan as Arab Muslim armies encroached (similar to the Jats). Jaffrelot also believes the community to be related to the Kamboja Vedic tribe. Ishtiaq Ahmed, who is a political scientist like Jaffrelot and also a member of the Arain community, acknowledges that some early Arain texts ascribe a Persian origin and others a Rajput descent. The Arain claims of Arab descent however are largely based on myth.

* ~~ Jat ~~*
Origin: Sindh
Groups: Aulakh, Bajwa, Chaudhary, Chohan, Dhankhar, Gill, Kharal, Khokhar, Khullar, Randhawa, Sandhu, Sidhu, Sial, Sodhi, Sohal, Virk, Jatt

Jat is an elastic label applied to a wide-ranging, traditionally non-elite community which had its origins in pastoralism in the lower Indus Valley of Sindh. Between the eleventh and the sixteenth centuries, Jat herders migrated up along the Indus River and its tributaries into Punjab, which had not been cultivated in the first millennium. Many took up tilling in regions stretching between the Rivers Jhelum, Chenab and Ravi of Punjab.

* ~~ Gujjar ~~*
Origin: Caucasus range? Ganges plain?

Historians and anthropologists differ on issue of Gujjar origin. According to one view, Gurjars came from Central Asia via Georgia near the Caspian Sea; that sea's alternate name of Bahr-e-Khizar caused the tribe to be known as Khizar, Guzar, Gujur, Gurjara, or Gujjar. According to this view, Gurjars came in multiple waves of migration and they were initially accorded status as high-caste warriors in the Indus Vedic civilization.

* ~~ Rajput ~~*
Origin: Scythians
Groups: Bais, Butta, Bhatti, Chib, Janjua, Parmar, Ranial, Shaktawat, Sohlan, Mair, Minhas

Rajputs are said to be descendants of Indo-Scythians, who were a Central Asian tribe (called the Scythians or Sakas), who migrated into the Indus Valley during Greco-Bactrian and Indo-Greek rule in around 150 BC, eventually taking control of the Indus Valley by establishing several small kingdoms in the region between 110 BC to 95 AD. However, there is not solid evidence linking the two at present time.

* ~~ Sheikhs ~~*
Origin: Members of the Shaikh community are Punjabi Hindus who converted to Islam from different Brahmin castes of Punjab.
Groups: Arora, Brahmins, Bali, Chawla, Datt, Mohan, Mohyal, Qureshi, Khatri, Ahuja, Babbar, Bedi, Chopra, Khukhrain, Kohli, Malhotra, Malik, Oberoi, Paracha, Roshan, Sabharwal, Sahni, Sehgal, Sethi, Siddiqui and Vohra

Several other groups are present in Punjab who have not completely adopted Punjabi culture, but have integrated into Punjabi society. These include:

* ~~ Sayyid ~~*
Origin: Levant
Groups: Hasani, Husaini, Zaidi, Rizvi, Naqvi, Syed

The Sayyids of Punjab belong to the Hasani (descendants of Hasan), Husaini (descendants of Husayn), Zaidi (descendants of Zayd ibn Ali, grandson of Husayn), Rizvi, (descendants of Ali al-Ridha), and Naqvi (descendants of Ali al-Hadi). Sayyids are by definition a branch of the Banu Hashim, a clan from the tribe of Quraish that traces its lineage to Adnan and therefore it is directly descended from Ishmael, as well as being collaterally descended from his paternal half brother Isaac, the sons of Abraham. Sayyids often include the following titles in their names to indicate the figure from whom they trace their descent. A study of Y chromosomes of self-identified Syeds from the by Elise M. S. Belle, Saima Shah, Tudor Parfitt and Mark G. Thomas showed that "self-identified Sayyids" had no less genetic diversity than those non-Sayyids from the same regions, suggesting that there is no biological basis to the belief that self-identified Sayyids in this part of the world share a recent common ancestry. However, self-identified Sayyids belonging to the ‘Islamic honorific lineages’ (Syeds, Hashemites, Quraysh and Ansari) show a greater genetic affinity to Arab populations—despite the geographic distance.

* ~~ Kashmiris ~~*
Origins: Kashmir Valley
Groups: Butt, Dar, Mir, Lone

These are people who arrived in Punjab in two waves. The first was during a major famine in Kashmir during the early 1800s which forced many Kashmiris to migrate to Punjab. The second was during the 1947 Kashmir conflict, where by Dogra soldiers forced many Muslim Kashmiris to flee to Pakistan...namely settling in Punjab. Although they have adopted Punjabi language and some aspects of Punjabi culture, they still identify as Kashmiris.

Other groups also exist, but since I cannot 100% ascertain origins of those groups, I've decided to not include them. I don't like spreading myths, but rather facts or theories. Until a full study is completed, we won't know for certain about the true origins of Punjabis. Until then, we can only guess and make assumptions.

My facebook post




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1765097003550276

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## Taimur Khurram

Indus Priest King said:


> Ranjit Singh should be discussed.



He banned the azaan and fought against other Muslims, I take no liking to him.


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## zizzi

Does anyone know what those mounds are in villages across Punjab? Sometimes old objects come out of there but no one in my ancestral village has dug in case it’s a burial mound. Would be disrespectful.


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## Sugarcane

zizzi said:


> Does anyone know what those mounds are in villages across Punjab? Sometimes old objects come out of there but no one in my ancestral village has dug in case it’s a burial mound. Would be disrespectful.



Which village?


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## Great Brahmin

Indus Priest King said:


> Ranjit Singh should be discussed. He's Punjabi as well. Keep your religion aside please. Thanks.
> 
> How was the Punjabi nation formed? Origin and history?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is a very difficult question to answer as there is no consensus on this and studies are still being done to determine the genetic history of Punjabis. Unlike Sindhis, Baloch and Pashtuns who have a common genetic background, culture and history, Punjabis are unique in that they're not exactly "one nation" but rather a collection of people who share a similar culture and language. Punjabis represent a complex admixture of ethnic castes and groups unlike any other in Pakistan. Before moving on to describing Punjabi people, we first need to define what Punjab actually is.
> 
> * ~ Punjab ~*
> What we know as Punjab today is not actually the historic Punjab. The modern-day borders of the Province of Punjab are based on the borders of British Punjab. This was done when the British captured Punjab in 1845 and hastily made the provincial borders with complete disregard to language, culture and history. For example the State of Bahawalpur was completely absorbed into British Punjab, despite the fact Bahawalpur had very limited ties to Punjab. The actual historic Punjab consists of regions around Lahore. These regions include Sialkot, Gujranwala, Gujrat, Okara, Kasur, Faisalabad along with Amritsar, Ludhiana, Bathinda and Jallandar in East Punjab. This is where the traditional tribes and clans of Punjab come from (ie. Punjabi people) and where Punjabi culture emerged from. Even still, within this geographical area, the cultures and people differ among one another. The rest of what we know as Punjab is not actually Punjab...it is populated by Pashtuns, Baloch, Potohar/Hindkowan people and Seraiki people. North and northwestern Punjab (the Potohar Plateau ie. Talagang, Chakwal, Mianwali, Taxila, Rawalpindi etc.) has a culture of its own (a mix of Punjabi+Pashtun culture) and they speak Potohari/Pahari language or Hindko. South and southwestern Punjab (ie. Seraikistan) has a culture of its own (a mix of Punjabi+Baloch+Sindhi cultures) and they speak either Seraiki or Balochi.
> 
> * ~ Punjabis ~*
> In October of this year, I posted a lengthy study entitled the "Genetic Journey of Pakistanis" which details who Pakistanis actually are genetically. In regards to Punjabis, I mentioned that Punjabi-speaking individuals from Punjab represented a complex admixture of ethnic castes and groups and would be analyzed separately. At present, these these studies are still being analyzed. However, we do know some basic information. Punjabis can generally be broken down into four sub-tribes:
> 
> * ~~ Arain ~~*
> Origin: Sindh? Persia? Central Asia?
> Groups: Mian, Mehar Dhankhar
> 
> The origin of the Arain community is uncertain, with some members of the community claiming a connection with the Rajputs. Others, with whom the historian and political scientist Christophe Jaffrelot agrees, believe that they are displaced farming communities who moved to Punjab from Sindh and Multan as Arab Muslim armies encroached (similar to the Jats). Jaffrelot also believes the community to be related to the Kamboja Vedic tribe. Ishtiaq Ahmed, who is a political scientist like Jaffrelot and also a member of the Arain community, acknowledges that some early Arain texts ascribe a Persian origin and others a Rajput descent. The Arain claims of Arab descent however are largely based on myth.
> 
> * ~~ Jat ~~*
> Origin: Sindh
> Groups: Aulakh, Bajwa, Chaudhary, Chohan, Dhankhar, Gill, Kharal, Khokhar, Khullar, Randhawa, Sandhu, Sidhu, Sial, Sodhi, Sohal, Virk, Jatt
> 
> Jat is an elastic label applied to a wide-ranging, traditionally non-elite community which had its origins in pastoralism in the lower Indus Valley of Sindh. Between the eleventh and the sixteenth centuries, Jat herders migrated up along the Indus River and its tributaries into Punjab, which had not been cultivated in the first millennium. Many took up tilling in regions stretching between the Rivers Jhelum, Chenab and Ravi of Punjab.
> 
> * ~~ Gujjar ~~*
> Origin: Caucasus range? Ganges plain?
> 
> Historians and anthropologists differ on issue of Gujjar origin. According to one view, Gurjars came from Central Asia via Georgia near the Caspian Sea; that sea's alternate name of Bahr-e-Khizar caused the tribe to be known as Khizar, Guzar, Gujur, Gurjara, or Gujjar. According to this view, Gurjars came in multiple waves of migration and they were initially accorded status as high-caste warriors in the Indus Vedic civilization.
> 
> * ~~ Rajput ~~*
> Origin: Scythians
> Groups: Bais, Butta, Bhatti, Chib, Janjua, Parmar, Ranial, Shaktawat, Sohlan, Mair, Minhas
> 
> Rajputs are said to be descendants of Indo-Scythians, who were a Central Asian tribe (called the Scythians or Sakas), who migrated into the Indus Valley during Greco-Bactrian and Indo-Greek rule in around 150 BC, eventually taking control of the Indus Valley by establishing several small kingdoms in the region between 110 BC to 95 AD. However, there is not solid evidence linking the two at present time.
> 
> * ~~ Sheikhs ~~*
> Origin: Members of the Shaikh community are Punjabi Hindus who converted to Islam from different Brahmin castes of Punjab.
> Groups: Arora, Brahmins, Bali, Chawla, Datt, Mohan, Mohyal, Qureshi, Khatri, Ahuja, Babbar, Bedi, Chopra, Khukhrain, Kohli, Malhotra, Malik, Oberoi, Paracha, Roshan, Sabharwal, Sahni, Sehgal, Sethi, Siddiqui and Vohra
> 
> Several other groups are present in Punjab who have not completely adopted Punjabi culture, but have integrated into Punjabi society. These include:
> 
> * ~~ Sayyid ~~*
> Origin: Levant
> Groups: Hasani, Husaini, Zaidi, Rizvi, Naqvi, Syed
> 
> The Sayyids of Punjab belong to the Hasani (descendants of Hasan), Husaini (descendants of Husayn), Zaidi (descendants of Zayd ibn Ali, grandson of Husayn), Rizvi, (descendants of Ali al-Ridha), and Naqvi (descendants of Ali al-Hadi). Sayyids are by definition a branch of the Banu Hashim, a clan from the tribe of Quraish that traces its lineage to Adnan and therefore it is directly descended from Ishmael, as well as being collaterally descended from his paternal half brother Isaac, the sons of Abraham. Sayyids often include the following titles in their names to indicate the figure from whom they trace their descent. A study of Y chromosomes of self-identified Syeds from the by Elise M. S. Belle, Saima Shah, Tudor Parfitt and Mark G. Thomas showed that "self-identified Sayyids" had no less genetic diversity than those non-Sayyids from the same regions, suggesting that there is no biological basis to the belief that self-identified Sayyids in this part of the world share a recent common ancestry. However, self-identified Sayyids belonging to the ‘Islamic honorific lineages’ (Syeds, Hashemites, Quraysh and Ansari) show a greater genetic affinity to Arab populations—despite the geographic distance.
> 
> * ~~ Kashmiris ~~*
> Origins: Kashmir Valley
> Groups: Butt, Dar, Mir, Lone
> 
> These are people who arrived in Punjab in two waves. The first was during a major famine in Kashmir during the early 1800s which forced many Kashmiris to migrate to Punjab. The second was during the 1947 Kashmir conflict, where by Dogra soldiers forced many Muslim Kashmiris to flee to Pakistan...namely settling in Punjab. Although they have adopted Punjabi language and some aspects of Punjabi culture, they still identify as Kashmiris.
> 
> Other groups also exist, but since I cannot 100% ascertain origins of those groups, I've decided to not include them. I don't like spreading myths, but rather facts or theories. Until a full study is completed, we won't know for certain about the true origins of Punjabis. Until then, we can only guess and make assumptions.
> 
> My facebook post
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1765097003550276



Saikh are not Brahmins but Baniyas. Keep your facts string.


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## zizzi

LoveIcon said:


> Which village?


In the potohari plateau


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## MBT 3000

interesting, im a punjabi but also a arain. heard that my ancestors came from iran

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## cringe master

interesting thread , Porus was probably khatri (punjabi kshatriya)
today some rajput try to claim my tribe awan as rajputs so i am making this thread
one thing i noted on this forum is insane rajputs claims . i am sick of these proclaimed rajput guys on every other thread claiming everything

*rajput is not caste and it is biggest fraud in history of south asia still people practicing of different castes and keep calling them self rajputs*

Rajput is not caste or race or any tribe. Rajput means Son of king. Rajput is tittle to kings and princes started in 13th century. Any king or Queen can be of any race or ethnicity. But lately people got it using as caste trying to be related to earlier kings. Rajput is like a nawab.
Now come to topic ,
Rajput have stolen entire history of other castes , arain,gakhar,gujjar and last but not least jatts.

They stole gujjar chauhan and call them rajput

they claimed gakhar kayani and made them rajput ,

They stole bhutto arain and claimed the as rajput

and last but not least they stole entire history of jats and their 30 plus gotra and put label of rajput on them.

*some people they claim as rajput below*

Liqat ali khan was nawab and jaat of haryana , non punjabi hindu converted muslim jaat use khan title(just like rajputs) like in salman khan movie sultan ali khan was muslim jaat of hrayna
even a rao rajput friend of mine who migrated from hrayana to faisalabad confirmed me this , he even told me in hrayna we call our self jaat even rana are also called jaat in hrayna and here in punjab we call ourself rajput and use khan as title.

ranjit singh was sandalwalia jatt , sansiraja was place he lived so was called sansi wala , his ancestor beant singh sandhiwalia and parminder singh sandhiwalia live in amritsar.

Zulifqar ali bhutto was arain while rajput claim as rajput , his cousin is member of injmane arrian sindh

Ahmed khan kharral was jat , Mirza jatt of mirza sahiban was also kharal.

dawn wrote a amazing tribute to kharal jaat tribes of baar during british invasion

List is very long but i think you guys get my point here,


*I am not bringing them down or disrespecting them, i know their achievements and respect them from my heart but i have to post it*


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## PakSarzameen5823

Taimur Khurram said:


> Mukarrab Khan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A powerful chieftain of nothern Punjab who fought alongside Nader Shah during his conquests of the Mughal Empire. He was awarded the title of Nawab for his efforts and was allowed to retain control of his kingdom. He then expanded it to include much of nothern Pakistan before being defeated by the Sikh Empire. Even then, his people continued to rebel against the Sikhs.



Muqarrab Khan also fought alongside Ahmed Shah Durrani, as did other Gakhar tribals of Potohar:

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...ved=0ahUKEwi29MXItcrfAhXiVhUIHWiTBOkQ6AEILTAB


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## Taimur Khurram

For those who say Punjabis never ruled over ourselves:

Harappa, one of the oldest cities in the world, is in the Punjab and evidence indicates it probably ruled over itself (due to it’s dissimilar layout to other Indus Valley cities like Mohenjo-Daro)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harappa

The early Vedic people were from the Punjab






Bahawalpur was a state from southern Punjab, ruled by Punjabis

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahawalpur_(princely_state)

Mahmud Gujjar was a Punjabi who ruled over parts of southern Punjab for 30 years

https://books.google.co.uk/books?dq...ved=0ahUKEwiLvtWlxYHgAhUfRxUIHSiDB7MQ6AEIKzAB

https://books.google.co.uk/books?dq...ved=0ahUKEwiLvtWlxYHgAhUfRxUIHSiDB7MQ6AEIKDAA

Porus was a Punjabi who ruled over parts of northern Punjab

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porus

Ambhi was a Punjabi who also ruled over parts of northern Punjab, and was Porus’ main rival

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Hydaspes

Ahmed Khan Karral was a Punjabi who also ruled over parts of the Punjab

https://www.thenews.com.pk/print/157720-Ahmed-Khan-Kharal-and-the-Raj

Muqarrab Khan was a Punjabi who ruled over much of northern Punjab

http://gakhars.blogspot.com/2013/06/gakhar-history.html

Sarang Khan was a Punjabi who ruled over the Potohar Plateau (see previous link for info on him as well as the one below)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sultan_Sarang_Khan

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## B.K.N

Sugarcane said:


> Which village?



There are such places in many areas of Punjab these are remains of some old towns or villages just like harapa and mohenjo daro
and in Punjabi they are called bhir or bhiri

Bhir hona means tabah hojana ya khatam hojana
Like this one in shorkot tehsil of Jhang


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## B.K.N

Taimur Khurram said:


> For those who say Punjabis never ruled over ourselves:



Actually no one ruled these areas 
In Punjab government was established by British prior to that there wasn't any government in Punjab
People were mostly cattle herders only a very limited area near rivers was cultivated and near rivers most of land was used for grazing Buffalos
and areas away from rivers were just like desert


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## B.K.N

Retired Troll said:


> So is punjabi an ethinicity?



Punjabi is a language spoken in Punjab but those people who never attended school don't call it Punjabi they just call it hamari boli or the boli we speak or jatki boli in Punjabi jat means kisan or agriculture labourer
People of Punjab look similar speak same language or different dialects of same language from narowal to Raheem Yar khan to dg khan to attock to narowal 
than why they can't be considered an ethnic group any reason 
pashtun nationalism isn't pashtun ancestry nationalism but is Pashto language nationalism because people like Imran Khan niazi Attaullah niazi Shafaullah rokhri aren't considered pashtuns by pashtun nationalists
similarly people like shireen mazari zulfiqar khosa are not considered baloch by Baloch nationalists despite of some khosas and mazaris being bilingual
But who cares about such things 
Mehmod Khan achakzai sa kaho na apni land cruiser bech Kar kisi ghareeb pashtun ki madad karday Sara nationalism nikal Jaye ga



Retired Troll said:


> Till they convince each other that they are all humans and Pakistanis first.



Ye sari zindagi aisay hi rahain gay

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## El Sidd

Brass Knuckles said:


> Punjabi is a language spoken in Punjab but those people who never attended school don't call it Punjabi they just call it hamari boli or the boli we speak or jatki boli in Punjabi jat means kisan or agriculture labourer
> People of Punjab look similar speak same language or different dialects of same language from narowal to Raheem Yar khan to dg khan to attock to narowal
> than why they can't be considered an ethnic group any reason
> pashtun nationalism isn't pashtun ancestry nationalism but is Pashto language nationalism because people like Imran Khan niazi Attaullah niazi Shafaullah rokhri aren't considered pashtuns by pashtun nationalists
> similarly people like shireen mazari zulfiqar khosa are not considered baloch by Baloch nationalists despite of some khosas and mazaris being bilingual
> But who cares about such things
> Mehmod Khan achakzai sa kaho na apni land cruiser bech Kar kisi ghareeb pashtun ki madad karday Sara nationalism nikal Jaye ga
> 
> 
> 
> Ye sari zindagi aisay hi rahain gay



Ye log baal ki khaal nikaal kar usper kyon larte jigharte hain? Isse mulk ko nuqsaan hota hai

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## B.K.N

Retired Troll said:


> Ye log baal ki khaal nikaal kar usper kyon larte jigharte hain? Isse mulk ko nuqsaan hota hai



Sir ji issay mafad parasti kehtay Hain aur kuch logon ki koi medical condition hoti hai


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## El Sidd

Brass Knuckles said:


> Sir ji issay mafad parasti kehtay Hain aur kuch logon ki koi medical condition hoti hai



exploitation of Pakistanis is illegal and is a crime. they should be held responsible for communal tensions among different linguistic/ethnic groups which is slowing the country down.


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## B.K.N

Retired Troll said:


> exploitation of Pakistanis is illegal and is a crime. they should be held responsible for communal tensions among different linguistic/ethnic groups which is slowing the country down.



Aik din aye ga sab jail main hongay but PDF walon ko kuch na kahain


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## El Sidd

Brass Knuckles said:


> Aik din aye ga sab jail main hongay but PDF walon ko kuch na kahain



jazbaati nawjawans zaya horahe hain inke 56 inch chest ke liye


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## B.K.N

Retired Troll said:


> jazbaati nawjawans zaya horahe hain inke 56 inch chest ke liye



Ham na to aaj Tak 56 inch chest walay nahi dekhay 56 inch waist walay bahut hongay aakhir eastern western side sa man o salwa utar raha hai
waisay daryaye Sindh walay chacha ka baray kya raye rakhtay hain



Maarkhoor said:


> Bro he became Dakait and started loot and plunder........



He is considered hero by bhattis dakait bhi ho to kya farq parta hai ham na aaj kal ka zamanay ka dakaits ko hero bantay dekha hai


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## El Sidd

Brass Knuckles said:


> Ham na to aaj Tak 56 inch chest walay nahi dekhay 56 inch waist walay bahut hongay aakhir eastern western side sa man o salwa utar raha hai
> waisay daryaye Sindh walay chacha ka baray kya raye rakhtay hain



akhir kab tak ye corruption ka man o salwa barasta rahega zalimon per? 

dekhen is mulk per sab ka haq hai chahe ho nasalparast ho ya firqaparast ya kuch bhi. laken hadd se tajawuz karne walon ke liye is mulk me siwaye zalalat ke kuch nahi.


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## Mutakalim

Most shameful creature produced by Punjabis. We should also remember the evil characters of our history.

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## cringe master

Gillani88 said:


> Most shameful creature produced by Punjabis. We should also remember the evil characters of our history.


some qadiani guy told me this
*"it was lame attemp of muslim punjabis to get rid of arab imperialism. Punjab mein jo kami, masali , choora jin logo ko kaha jata hai waisy hi mostly paksitani ko arab countries mein aisy hi smja jaata hai. Yeh sikhon ki copy ki gye thi so punjabi muslim ko arabs ki tarf dekhne ki zaroorat nhi pry g"*


Gillani88 said:


> Most shameful creature produced by Punjabis. We should also remember the evil characters of our history.

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## Mutakalim

Muslimrenaissance said:


> some qadiani guy told me this
> *"it was lame attemp of muslim punjabis to get rid of arab imperialism. Punjab mein jo kami, masali , choora jin logo ko kaha jata hai waisy hi mostly paksitani ko arab countries mein aisy hi smja jaata hai. Yeh sikhon ki copy ki gye thi so punjabi muslim ko arabs ki tarf dekhne ki zaroorat nhi pry g"*


Kahan Ye Punjabi Ka'ana aur kahan Arab


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## B.K.N

Muslimrenaissance said:


> Punjab mein jo kami, masali , choora jin logo ko kaha jata hai waisy hi mostly paksitani ko arab countries mein aisy hi smja jaata hai


Because in Arab countries most of the Pakistanis are doing low level jobs 
And rich Pakistanis bhi poor Pakistanis ko chohra hi smjhtay Hain


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## Rusty

Gillani88 said:


> Most shameful creature produced by Punjabis. We should also remember the evil characters of our history.



We should not degrade other people's religion.
We should say how they are wrong, we can give our opinions, but she should not degrade 


Remember how we felt about the real prophet's cartoons from the west?

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## zeeshe100

King Porus the great was not defeated by Alexander it was Alexander who was defeated and wounded in his battle against the great king Porus .

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## Mutakalim

Rusty said:


> We should not degrade other people's religion.
> We should say how they are wrong, we can give our opinions, but she should not degrade
> 
> 
> Remember how we felt about the real prophet's cartoons from the west?


Not degrading anyone's religion. Just stating Historical facts.


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## B.K.N

Gillani88 said:


> Not degrading anyone's religion. Just stating Historical facts.


This thread is about history not for religion discussions and he wasn't from Pakistani Punjabi


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## Mutakalim

Brass Knuckles said:


> This thread is about history not for religion discussions and he wasn't from Pakistani Punjabi


History covers all aspect of society whether they are economical, cultural or religious. Secondly, his followers are Pakistani Punjabis living inside Pakistan. His evil ideology has affected Punjabis.


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## B.K.N

Gillani88 said:


> History covers all aspect of society whether they are economical, cultural or religious. Secondly, his followers are Pakistani Punjabis living inside Pakistan. His evil ideology has affected Punjabis.


He was from qadian India discuss him in Indian history thread 
@Dubious isn't religious discussion against forum rules see post#127


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## Mutakalim

Brass Knuckles said:


> He was from qadian India discuss him in Indian history thread
> @Dubious isn't religious discussion against forum rules see post#127


He was a Punjabi and his followers are Punjabi. He has directly affected Punjabi history, even a martial law was imposed to contain riots in Lahore. I think your pseudo liberal brain is incapable of understanding simple historical facts.

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## Dubious

Gillani88 said:


> He was a Punjabi and his followers are Punjabi. He has directly affected Punjabi history, even a martial law was imposed to contain riots in Lahore. I think your pseudo liberal brain is incapable of understanding simple historical facts.


Watch the language 

@Irfan Baloch too much qadyani stuff going on these days

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## Super Falcon

Yet punjabi is not a adbi language


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## Taimur Khurram

*Raja Mal Khan 






*
Raja Mal Khan was a Punjabi warlord who had converted to Islam during the reign of the Ghurid Empire, due to his profound appreciation for Sufi teachings and poetry. He then engaged in a campaign of warfare, managing to gain control over the Salt Range and parts of surrounding areas (which Muhammad Ghauri had allowed him to keep because of his religion). After the death of Muhammad Ghauri, his military endeavours intensified, resulting in him conquering Lahore and even going as far south as Multan. Interestingly enough, Raja Mal Khan's family claimed to be related to Porus, as does the Janjua tribe (which he belonged to) today.

*https://www.dawn.com/news/1101057*

*Ali Khan 




*

Ali Khan was a 9th century warlord in the Punjab, and is most notable for being the first known Gujar to rule over the Punjab, as well as the first known individual to be clearly identified with the tribe. At one point, his domains included much of northern and western Punjab along with parts of Kashmir, and even the Karkota Empire to the north grew somewhat wary of his expansions. He is also credited with developing Gujrat to such an extent that many in the area consider him to be its true founder.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=1QmrSwFYe60C&pg=PA306&dq=Ali+Khan+Gujar&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwir8ZiA5ZbkAhWyoXEKHUFpDsMQ6AEIKzAA#v=onepage&q=Ali Khan Gujar&f=false

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...ved=0ahUKEwjLgNyV5ZbkAhWGSxUIHaS6ACwQ6AEIPjAD

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## Great Janjua

Sohna Punjab te sohniya galiyan

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## Pax Pakistanica

Taimur Khurram said:


> We've got one for Pashtuns, so I am making one for Punjabis.
> 
> I will start off with some historical Punjabi figures:
> 
> Porus
> 
> View attachment 475320
> 
> 
> A Punjabi king who fought bravely against Alexander of Macedon. Defeating him was one of Alexander's most difficult conquests, and out of respect for Porus he employed him as a satrapy over the area. The difficulty of the battle also seems to have caused the Macedonian soldiersoldier's reluctancy to fight any further, to the point where they almost started a mutiny. This resulted in Alexander being forced to end his campaign of expansion.
> 
> https://www.britannica.com/biography/Porus
> 
> Kautilya
> 
> A famous philosopher from Taxila who tutored Chandragupta Maurya, and held a key position in the Mauryan Empire. He is often compared to Aristotle and Plato.
> 
> https://www.britannica.com/biography/Kautilya
> 
> Sarang Khan
> 
> He was a powerful ruler of Nothern Punjab who fought alongside Babur during his conquests of Hindustan. He obtained the title of Sultan for his efforts. When Sher Shah Suri usurped Babur's son Humayun, Sarang fought against him bravely, and Sher Shah Suri was never able to subdue his people even after skinning Sarang himself.
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sultan_Sarang_Khan
> 
> Wazir Khan
> 
> View attachment 475328
> 
> 
> A Punjabi who acted as Shah Jahan's physician. He was also a Mughal noble and chief Qazi of Lahore for quite some time during Mughal rule. He founded Wazirabad and Wazir Khan Masjid is named after him.
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wazir_Khan_(Lahore)
> 
> Shahbaz Khan
> 
> A Punjabi who fought as a general under Akbar. He participated in some of the most difficult battles during Akbar's reign, and annexed large amounts of Hindustan. He was also a highly religious Muslim, keeping a long beard and regularly praying.
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shahbaz_Khan_Kamboh
> 
> Abdullah Bhatti
> 
> He rebelled against Mughal emeperor Akbar, and is often compared to Robin Hood due to his social banditry. Many folklore tales speak highly of his deeds. When he was hung, his last words that were uttered were "No honourable son of Punjab will ever sell the soil of Punjab".
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dulla_Bhatti
> 
> Fateh Muhammad
> 
> Worked as a commander in Aurangzeb's army. He was also the father of Hyder Ali, who was the father of Tipu Sultan.
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fath_Muhammad
> 
> Mukarrab Khan
> 
> View attachment 475326
> 
> 
> A powerful chieftain of nothern Punjab who fought alongside Nader Shah during his conquests of the Mughal Empire. He was awarded the title of Nawab for his efforts and was allowed to retain control of his kingdom. He then expanded it to include much of nothern Pakistan before being defeated by the Sikh Empire. Even then, his people continued to rebel against the Sikhs.
> 
> http://firdosh101.blogspot.co.uk/2009/05/history-of-gakhars.html?m=1
> 
> Allama Iqbal
> 
> View attachment 475321
> 
> 
> An Urdu/Farsi poet as well as a philosopher who is also considered the spiritual father of Pakistan.
> 
> http://historypak.com/allama-muhammad-iqbal-1877-1938/
> 
> Rehmat Ali
> 
> View attachment 475322
> 
> 
> One of Pakistan's founding fathers. He came up with the name of Pakistan and was the author of the Pakistan declaration.
> 
> http://historypak.com/choudhry-rahmat-ali-1895-1951/
> 
> Faiz Ahmed Faiz
> 
> View attachment 475323
> 
> 
> One of Urdu's most celebrated poets. He won numerous awards for his poetry, such as the Lenin Peace Prize and Nishan-e-Imtiaz. He was also nominated for a Nobel Prize in Literature.
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faiz_Ahmad_Faiz
> 
> Shabbir Sharif
> 
> View attachment 475325
> 
> 
> The most decorated soldier to ever serve the Pakistani army. During 1971, he and his men destroyed several Hindustani tanks and kept two Hindustani battalions at bay by killing over 40 of their troops and capturing almost 30 of them as POW's. He also defeated a Hindustani company commander who challenged him to hand-to-hand combat. He won both Nishan-e-Haider and Sitara-e-Jurat for his efforts.
> 
> http://www.pakarmymuseum.com/exhibits/second-lieutenant-shabbir-sharif/
> 
> Tikka Khan
> 
> View attachment 475324
> 
> 
> Fought against Erwin Rommel in WW2 as part of Britain's Africa campaign. He also served in the Pakistani army, participating in the Battle of Chawinda (2nd largest tank battle in history) and lead the army to great victories in the Rann of Kutch. He eventually became a general, and crushed Bengali and Baluchi insurgencies with a heavy hand. He's also my PDF profile picture.
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tikka_Khan






Taimur Khurram said:


> No, because Porus and Kautilya were not Muslim.



_"History of the pre-Islamic Punjabis and Punjabi Muslims"_ would've been a more appropriate title for the thread.


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## W.11

amusingly i read some where in lahore's history that greeks mentioned khatris in their records, how true is it and how is khatri relation is unknown.

the vedic record of sapta sindhu indicates punjab and adjoining lands.

sindhis have better recorded history in entire pakistan, call it irony or what that arabs invaded sindh and recorded its history so it got recorded pretty early.

regards


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## Great Janjua

So what's your point you idiot


W.11 said:


> amusingly i read some where in lahore's history that greeks mentioned khatris in their records, how true is it and how is khatri relation is unknown.
> 
> the vedic record of sapta sindhu indicates punjab and adjoining lands.
> 
> sindhis have better recorded history in entire pakistan, call it irony or what that arabs invaded sindh and recorded its history so it got recorded pretty early.
> 
> regards


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## Muhammad Burham




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## Intsar Ahmad

Taimur Khurram said:


> I will also do the history of some of the tribes in the Punjab.
> 
> *Gujjars
> *
> The Gujjars are a nomadic tribe that exist primarily in Pakistan, but also have significant numbers in Afghanistan and Hindustan.
> 
> They are believed to be the descendants of Central Asians who migrated to the region during the invasions of the Huna people (they were most likely an allied tribe in their confederation, such as the Khazars) and intermarried with local Indo-Aryans, hence why they speak an Indo-Aryan language (Gojri). This is strengthened by the fact that some of the earliest references to Gujjars in the region appear shortly after the Huna invasions.
> 
> The Gujjar language (Gojrj) is also interesting since roughly 10-13% of its words (depending on the dialect) actually come from Pashto, suggesting that the original abode of the Gujjars (after they came from Central Asia and intermarried with the locals) would be eastern Afghanistan/KPK/FATA where the Pashto language would have influenced them (perhaps they may have even occasionally intermarried), since large numbers of Gujjars are found there and it seems strange that Gojri dialects in places like Gilgit Baltistan and Azad Kashmir (where there are next to no Pashtuns) have such a large number of words borrowed from Pashto. There's also the fact that many of the Gujjars of eastern Afghanistan, KPK and FATA consider themselves to be some of the earliest inhabitants of the region, and the fact that the traditional migration route for Central Asians to Pakistan was via the Khyber Pass (in fact, the Hunas used this specific pass to enter Pakistan).
> 
> The Gujjars established many dynasties across Pakistan and Hindustan, such as the Shah Mir dynasty, Tomara dynasty, and Chavda dynasty. Many places such as Gujjar Khan, Gujrat and Gujranwala are also named after them. The Gujjars also fought in large numbers in Muhammad Bin Qasim's army, and have a played a significant role in Pakistan's armed forces, with Tufail Muhammad (Nishan-e-Haider winner) being a Gujjar and large portions of the Pakistani military being Gujjars. Gujjars in Afghanistan also fought hard against the USSR as part of the Afghan Mujahadeen.
> 
> There have also been plenty of famous Gujjars, such as Shoaib Akhtar (fastest bowler in history) and Rehmat Ali (author of the Pakistan declaration).
> 
> https://gujjarnation.blogspot.co.uk/2014/12/list-of-famous-gujjar-and-bureaucrats.html
> 
> https://www.sil.org/system/files/re...6620875850976172253716042392/32846_SSNP03.pdf
> 
> https://jktribals.page.tl/History-of-Gujjars.htm


Writing a book review is not just about summarizing; it's also an opportunity to present a critical discussion of the book that what is on the pages, how analyzed how the book tried to achieve its purpose. Keeping in mind these principles I dare to review the book of a retired Police Officer Mr. Gh. Sarwar Chauhan, belonging to Gujjar community, who happened to be my senior in the days of my active service. If we had a way to go back alive in time, we could have never got past account of our history in books; we would have never been able to pay tribute to our ancestry. We are not makers of history, we are made by history and it is an issue of human progression. When we chatter about 'Gujjar' history, we find that Gurjar or Gujjar are a group with populations in India, Pakistan and a small number in northeastern Afghanistan. When the image of Gujjar community haunts our mind about its less known facts, number of books, scripts and editorials on the subject comes to our rescue. Many such sources encountered me as an analytical mind and ultimately my inquisitiveness came to dead end when a comprehensive research work of G. Sarwar Chauhan (ex-SSP), as a complete book on origin, rise and growth of Gujjars touched down my library. Despite the fact, it is a compilation work based on historical facts with relevant references, but the texture of Hindi idiom 'Gagar mein Sagar' meaning 'Ocean in a pot' is the closing word that can be coined for the book. The writer has appealingly adventured the journey of Gujjar community by narration of its stops and advances through archival actuality traversing over sons of Noah, Manusmriti, king porus, Kushan Empire, Gurjara Pratihara dynasty, Gujjars in Mughal Era, gujjars in Muslim Era, Gujjars during British rule, Gujjars in freedom struggle of India and many more historical aspects. One senses crux of contentment and proud of this Gujjar community while moving on their chariot. In a very conceivable way the compiler at the beginning has relied upon the view of the history presented by Genesis 10 of the Hebrew Bible, about Noah and his family as only survivors to continue the human race after total destruction of population on earth by the flood. In line, 'Ham', 'Shem', and 'Japheth' were three sons of Noah. The author relying on calling of each other sometimes in the community may be as a satire "Yapheth Ki Aulad" has surmised Gujjars ancestry as from 'Japheth', and further based on the traditional claim of Armenian and Georgian as descendant from 'Togarmah', next generation falling in line with 'Japheth', affiliate Gujjars to Georgians also. In a very plausible way the hobbyist has referred 'Manu Smriti', for entitling progenitor of mankind as 'Manu' to be the first king to rule this earth who saved mankind from universal flood. The writer very honestly have gone in favor of population of human as descendant from same subject having two versions of it, as 'Noah' and 'Manu' versions and believe Gujjars are also one of them and reflects in his opinion as one theory of origin of Gujjars. Advancing pages of the text enrich our knowledge that after Mahabharata the Krishna after abandoning Mathura, united Kshatriya clan and his surviving Kshatriyas from his army into one and named them as 'Gurjar' and their government come to be known as 'Gujratar' with capital established in Dwarika. In first century AD, Gurjars have established reigns of two dynasties. The Nagar dynasty of Gurjars ruled Bengal, Bihar, Orissa (now Odisha), Uttar Pradesh and central India. The other dynasty as Kushan Gurjars ruled Peshawar and Agghanistan and Kanishka as their emperor. His reign spread up to Central Asia, as a result of which Gurjars could be seen dwelling in Afghanistan, Russia, and Iran even these days. Kushan Empire collapsed in 375 AD. Gurjar ruled as feudatories to Guptas till 455 AD when it collapsed due to Huan attack. The name 'Gurjardesa' was founded by Yashodharman in 480 AD (earlier it was Gujarat) after defeating Huna king. Many of the writings available on search engines but all had confused the origin of this community rather than to come on one platform. The chapter 8 of the book educates us about 'Who are Gujjars'. The claims of historians (almost 90%) that Gujjars originated in Central Asia and ultimately settled in Gujrat stand contested in the book. The author has placed its reliance that the Gurjars were established in the area near Mount Abu in Rajsthan around 6th century. The Gurjars were Hindus at the time they were first noticed in India. They have established a kingdom of their own at the time of Harsha of Thaneswar (607-647) about 640 AD. About 759 AD, the Chapa dynasty of Gurjars which had been in power for 200 years was displaced by Pratihars who carried till 1000 AD, when their power was broken by the coming of Mahmud of Ghazni who later migrated to mountains for pasture for the animals. The book civilizes us that Gurjar was most powerful Khsatriyan group of his time. The people liked them so much that their kingdoms were called Gurjaratra, Gurjar Bhumi, Gurjar Mandal, Gurjar Rashtra, Gurjar Desh, Gurjar Bhubhuj and their rulers were called Gurjarendra, Gurjareshwar, and Gurjranath by them. It also guide us that Rajput Sangh was formed to fight out the Muslims invaders somewhere during 13th century in Marwar region by famous Gurjar clans i.e. Pratihars, Parmars, Chalukyas, Chauhans, Gehlots, Chandels, Tomars, Chawdas, Dhamas, etc. The writer has efficiently show-cased the places named after Gujjars spread over to Punjab, Gujarat, Himachal Pradesh, Haryana, J&K and also in Pakistan and Afghanistan. Likewise reference of Gujjar personalities from across J&K, Punjab, Himachal Pradesh, Haryana, Delhi, UP, Uttarakhand, Rajsthan, Nadhya Pradesh, Maharashtra and also from Pakistan excelling from all walks of society in chapter 33 is marvelous data compilation. Gujjars belong to Aryans and writer too have relied upon the work of Mr Baij Nath Puri (The history of Gujjars and Pratharas), K M Munshi (The Glory that was Gujjar Desh), Rana Ali Hassan Chouhan (The history of Gujjars), Mr Jatinder Kumar Verma (Gujjar Ithas).
J&K has conspicuous geographical concentration all over the state, except Ladakh. In the Kashmir division the concentration of Gujjars is on the mountain slopes and valleys side in the area of Kukernag, Kangan, Tral, Doru, Pahalgam, Shopian, Kulgam, Handwara, Karnah, Kupwara and Uri Tehsils whereas in Jammu division Gujjars dominate in the border tehsils along the LoC i.e. Haveli, Mendhar, Nowshera, and Bani with their pockets in Bhaderwah, Doda, Gool, Kishtwar, Kathua, Udhampur and Arnas. The language spoken by Gujjars and Bakerwals of J&K termed as 'Gujari' is a form of 'Marwari' and had its root in Sanskrit. Gujari speakers constitute the single largest group of its persons in the state after Kashmiri and Dogri speakers. A majority of Gujjars follow Hinduism and Islam, though small Gujjar communities following other religions Gujjars.
The most informative part of the book based on study by 'Tribal and Cultural Foundation J&K' is about the socio-economic condition of Gujjars in J&K and various reforms required in the field have been detailed. Similarly socio-economic condition of Gujjars Women in J&K describing woes and misery of Gujjar women still living primitive life projected in real perceptions as a matter of concern for the community. The encyclopedia of approximately 479 Gujjar clans finding reference in the memoir is marvelous.
Concluding when it comes to the possibilities of learning from history there are doubtless many things we could aspire to learn from this book. Some of those would be more practically useful, in terms of contributing to the normal and decent functioning of well-meaning societies than others.

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## Talwar e Pakistan

Muhammad Burham said:


>


How is this related to 'History of Punjabis'?


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## ghazi52

*Sikh Period*

* 1762-1849 A.D.* 

The Sikhs established their Empire in the Punjab after the death of the Mughal Emperor Aurangzeb Alamgir in 1707. With the death of Aurangzeb the country saw a series of rapid governmental changes that stressed it in to the depths of anarchy. Taking advantage of this certain *Charat Singh*, who was the head of one of the Sikh Clans, established his stronghold in Gujranwala in *1763*. Charat Singh died in 1774 and was succeeded by his son, *Mahan Singh*, who in turn fathered the most brilliant leader in the history of the Punjab: *Maharaja Ranjit Singh*. It was this remarkable leader who united the whole Punjab under one flag. His rule stretched from the banks of the Jamuna to the Khyber and from Kashmir to Multan. Maharaja Ranjit Singh was the most powerful of all the Sikh Rulers and ruled over for complete 40 years. After his death in 1840 the Sikh Empire was divided into small principalities looked after by several Sikh Jagirdars. This weak situation provided a good opportunity to the British of East India Company to put an end to the Sikh strong hold in the Punjab in 1849.


Sikhs are the followers of Baba Guru Nanak Sahib. He was the son of Mehta Kalu Chand and Tripta Devi, both of them Khatris by caste. He was born at Nankana Sahib in 1464. Sikhism was born as a direct reaction against rigid, cruel and inhuman practices of Brahamanism and its rigid caste system. But another important factor which influenced the mind of the people who contributed to the growth of Sikhism, was the impact of Islam which had spread from Arabia to Iraq, Turkistan, Persia and Afghanistan and came in to contact with Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism and Zoroastrianism.


The Sikh religion is in fact a product of the Sufi and Bhakti school of thought. Guru Nanak was greatly influenced by Kabir and Shaikh Ibrahim Farid (1450 - 1535) a descendent of the famous Sufi saint Shaikh Fariduddin Shakarganj of Pak Pattan whose works were incorporated in the Garanth Sahib. Guru Nanak studied books of Hindu and Muslims religions and it was only after deep study of both the religions that he evolved his own school of thought. The basic principles of the Sikhism are much closer to Islam than to Hinduism. A study of the life, events of the Gurus and the large numbers of the monuments sacred to them will, however, reveal how deeply all the Sikh Gurus in general and Guru Nanak, Ajen Dev and Har Gobind Singh in particular are associated with Pakistan.





*
Emperor Ranjit Singh*











*
Haveli, Rangit Singh Gujranwala*







*
Birth Stone of Rangit Singh*

*Important Sikh Gurus, Dates*

1. Guru Nanak Sahib.. (1464-1539 A.D).
2. Guru Angad (1504-1522 A.D)
3. Guru Amar Das (1509-1574 A.D)
4. Guru Ram Das (1534-1581 A.D)
5. Guru Arjun Dev (1563-1606 A.D)
6. Guru Har Gobind (1595-1645 A.D)
7. Guru Har Rai (1631-1661 A.D)
8. Guru Har Krishan (1656-1664 A.D)
9. Guru Tegh Bahadur (1622-1675 A.D)
10. Guru Gobind Singh (1665-1708 A.D)






*
Smadhi Ranjit Singh*

*
Sikh Shrines*:
The Gurdwaras are more than a place of worship. They serve as Schools, meeting place and a rest house for the travelers in addition to enshrining the Garanth Sahib. The Gurdwaras are, as such, integral part of the Sikh religious and social life. Since the Sikh Rule lasted for almost a century in the sub-continent there are hundreds of Gurdawaras all over Pakistan but mostly in the Punjab, some of which are very famous such as Nankana Sahib and Punja Sahib. These Gurdwaras are looked after by the Evacuee Trust Property Board (ETPB) which is under the control of the Ministry of Culture, Islamabad.

The legacy of our predecessors at the time of our independence, on August 14, 1947, came to us as a treasure which may be called as Pakistan’s national heritage. So rich and diversified is this heritage that Pakistani nation can be proud of its glorious past, be Islamic, Post Islamic or pre-Islamic period as far back as pre-historic times. No other country of the world can produce the treasure of by gone days as can be found in Pakistan. It is now incumbent upon us to treasure our national heritage and save it from further deterioration and loss.







*
Punja Sahib, Hasanabdal*

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## Adam Elvin

*Maharaja Shalinder*

After the fall of Kushan Empire country was divided in to small states. There is no information of any important state in a period of two centuries following Kushan rule. In the beginning of fifth century we find Jat ruler Maharaja Shalinder with his rule extending from Punjab to Malwa and Rajasthan. This is proved from the Pali inscription obtained from village Kanswa in Kota state in year 1820 AD. We get following information from this inscription: [Thakur Deshraj, Jat Itihas, p.208-211]

Shalinder was the ruler Shalpur, known in the present by the name Sialkot. He established this state on his own power, which indicates that he was a monarch emerged from chieftain ship of a republic state. He had a powerful army full of strong warriors amongst whom he felt proud of glory of his caste. He had many small states under him and a rich treasury. He was a Kashyapvanshi (Suryavanshi) Taxak clan Jat. He had left Buddhism and adopted puranic religion and started vedic culture like performing yagyas etc. [Thakur Deshraj, Jat Itihas, p.208-211]

He married with a lady of other caste as he has been mentioned as having a "dogla" issue from him. His descendant Degali had married with daughters of Yaduvanshi. One of these queens gave birth to Veer Narendra. The chronology derived from this inscription is as under: 1. Maharaja Shalinder, 2. Dogla, 3. Sambuk, 4. Degali, 5. Veer Narendra 6. Veerchandra 7. Shalichandra

In samvat 597 (540 AD) a temple was built on the bank of river Taveli in Kota state and a close relative of Jit Shalinder had written the inscription. Probably the writer of the inscription was Shalichandra (son of Veerchandra and grandson of Veer Narendra), who left Shalivahanpur in samvat 597 (540 AD) due to attack of Huns and came to Malwa. Maharaja Shalinder had probably sought the help of his own clan ruler Maharaja Yasodharman of Malwa. In the first attempt of combined Jat power, they defeated Huns and repulsed them from Punjab which is clear from the Chandra’s grammar ‘Ajaya jarto Hunan’.

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## W.11

Adam Elvin said:


> He was a Kashyapvanshi (Suryavanshi) Taxak clan Jat. He had left Buddhism and adopted puranic religion and started vedic culture like performing yagyas etc. [Thakur Deshraj, Jat Itihas, p.208-211]



must be a greek or roman, or a bactrian religion, or perhaps the religion of the middle east with chief deity innana 

regards


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## Adam Elvin

I like this thread, it's useful and informative however I just wanted clarification on what the OP considers Punjab. The geographical area that makes up the Punjab currently, has changed over the years. It has been argued that the area making up Punjab was included in ancient Sapta-Sindu or Panchanada. That would encompass a far greater land area than what is currently defined as Punjab. 

Additionally, what is the ethnic and cultural make up of the Punjab? Do we consider only the indeginous peoples or the many Invaders that have settled in the region or even people who claim external decent as Punjabi too? I was thinking specifically of the many invasions beginning with the Greeks, Turks, Pashtuns, Persians and Mongols. 

My apologies, I know it is a bit late in the thread but just wanted clarification on two points above.


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## ghazi52

Maharajah Duleep Singh Entering His Palace In Lahore, Escorted By British Troops, Circa 1847.










This Depicts The Entry Of The Child Maharajah Duleep Singh (1838-1893) To His Palace In Lahore Accompanied By An Escort Of British Troops Commanded By Brigadier Cureton, Following The First Anglo-Sikh War (1845-46).

Here, Maharajah Duleep Singh Was Forced To Renounce His Sovereign Rights To The British Government Under Governor-General Hardinge. The British Installed Their Ally Gulab Singh, As Maharajah Of These Territories.

Artist - Charles Stewart Hardinge Plate 9 From "Recollections Of India, Part 1 - British India And The Punjab" By James Duffield Harding (1797-1863) After Charles Stewart Hardinge (1822-1894), The Eldest Son Of The First Viscount Hardinge, The Governor General.


Tomb Of Maharaja Ranjit Singh Lahore, Circa 1880's.


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## AsianLion

Look at this : Punjabi Supremacists now openly claim as the most superior race:

Salman Taseer daughter twitter account:



https://twitter.com/sarataseer



Sara Taseer
@sarataseer
Too fascist for the liberals. Too liberal for the fascists. *Punjabi supremacist*. B(Sc)Econ LSE UK, UWC alum. Jewellery Artist. Salmaan Taseer my fab Abba.

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## -blitzkrieg-

AsianLion said:


> Look at this : Punjabi Supremacists now openly claim as the most superior race:
> 
> Salman Taseer daughter twitter account:
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/sarataseer
> 
> 
> 
> Sara Taseer
> @sarataseer
> Too fascist for the liberals. Too liberal for the fascists. *Punjabi supremacist*. B(Sc)Econ LSE UK, UWC alum. Jewellery Artist. Salmaan Taseer my fab Abba.


Landay kai liberal.. they are worthless people not worthy of getting a mention in this nice thread

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## ghazi52

1) Punjab during that era was under an indigenous kingdom known as the Takka kingdom, known to Muslims as the Bilad i Takkiya. The name is ultimately seen to be derived from Takkesar which itself is taken to come from Takshasila (Taxilla) making Taxila its capital. 










The Takka Kingdom, before its decline and fall to the Hindu Shahis, was quite a large kingdom. A conversion of this level would’ve had strong affects and many historians would’ve wrote of it, however the Kingdom of Usaifan doesn’t find a mention anywhere.

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## ghazi52

Mul Raj Diwan of Multan, Photograph by Surgeon John McCosh (1805-1885), 1849 (c).







Mul Raj was governor (Diwan) of Multan, a Sikh city that had fallen under British rule in 1846 after the 1st Anglo-Sikh War (1845-1846). In a dispute over taxation the British ordered his replacement by Sikh Governor, Sirdar Khan Singh, and a British political agent, Lieutenant Patrick Vans Agnew.

However, when Agnew arrived at Multan he and his associate, Lieutenant William Anderson, were murdered by an angry mob. Although it is unlikely that Mul Raj ordered the murders, because of them he was forced into open rebellion, so beginning the 2nd Sikh War.

When Multan was taken by the British in January 1849 Mul Raj was captured and although spared execution was sentenced to life imprisonment. It was during his incarceration that McCosh photographed him and this probably accounts for his sombre expression.

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## ghazi52

Coin of Muqarrab Khan Gakkhar reading: “Darmiyan Attock wa Jhelum shud Muqarrab Badshah.” “Between Attock and Jhelum only Muqarrab is King.” After Nadir Shah’s invasion of 1739, Muqarrab khan of Northern Punjab rose to prominence in the doab between Indus and Jhelum -








Locking horn with multiple foes in both directions of his vicinity including Pashtun tribes to his west and other Punjabi tribes to his east. He eventually occupied Gujrat and ruled, albeit briefly, from Chenab till the Indus with the country of the Jhelum in between.

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## SaadH

Porous was punjabi? even though the word punjab came into the lexicon millennia later?

Punjabis of today are not, especially on Pakistani side of the border, an ethnic monolith...

They are interbred with other ethnicities of Pakistan and many are full blooded pushtuns or Kashmiris or even Baloch living in Punjab as Punjabis...

Punjabi race is an aritifical construct...


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## Ahmet Pasha

SaadH said:


> Porous was punjabi? even though the word punjab came into the lexicon millennia later?
> 
> Punjabis of today are not, especially on Pakistani side of the border, an ethnic monolith...
> 
> They are interbred with other ethnicities of Pakistan and many are full blooded pushtuns or Kashmiris or even Baloch living in Punjab as Punjabis...
> 
> Punjabi race is an aritifical construct...


Punjab is quite diverse I agree. Punjabis especially get along well with the Pashtuns and pashtuns also generally get along well with Punjabis except the nationalist ones who are few and far between.

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## Pak Nationalist

Porus put up stiff resistance but did not defeat Alexander. You do not become governor/client King of a Satrapy by defeating the conqueror of the world. Makes no sense.


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## ghazi52

Mehmud Ghazni captured Nandana (Capitol of Punjab), Pakistan in Mar 1014 AD. Al Utbi in Tarikh Yamini (1021 AD) states that a stone was found in temple of great Buddha with an inscription that the temple had been founded 40,000 years ago. Sultan's wise men considered it false.


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## ghazi52

Raja Tej Singh born a Brahmin and became Sikh in 1816 after joining court of Ranjit Singh in 1812. 

After serving in Sikh Army he was made Raja of Sialkot in 1847. British records indicate that he was a British agent & had a big hand in defeats of Sikh Army in many crucial battles.


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## ghazi52

Since 11th century, Punjabi language was written in Shahmukhi script, similar to Urdu. Some famous works of Punjabi literature were written in Shahmukhi by Guru Nanak, Farid Ganjshakar, Shah Hussain, Khwaja Ghulam Farid, Sultan Bahu, Waris Shah, Bhai Nand Lal Goya & Bulleh Shah.


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## AgnosticIndian

ghazi52 said:


> Some famous works of Punjabi literature were written in Shahmukhi by Guru Nanak, Farid Ganjshakar, Shah Hussain, Khwaja Ghulam Farid, Sultan Bahu, Waris Shah, Bhai Nand Lal Goya & Bulleh Shah.


hmm? as far as I knew the Sikh gurus and other Sikhs wrote in Lahnda script, a precursor to Gurmukhi derived ultimately from Brahmi. did they ever use Persian/Arabic scripts? source?


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## -blitzkrieg-

ghazi52 said:


> Since 11th century, Punjabi language was written in Shahmukhi script, similar to Urdu.


Early urdu of 11th century was not written in shah mukhi script but in the nastaliq script. Shahmukhi script was standardized for Urdu language much later in 14th century.


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## -blitzkrieg-

Pak Nationalist said:


> Porus put up stiff resistance but did not defeat Alexander. You do not become governor/client King of a Satrapy by defeating the conqueror of the world. Makes no sense.


If he did not get defeated why his army mutinied?
If he he didnt get defeated why he couldnt allocate a local governor?
If he didnt get defeated why he he couldnt assign a tax collector which he was doing for every region he conquered?
If he wasnt defeated why was the claim of victory written down 300 years after the actual event.
If he did not get defeated why didnt he go further east but rather turned south?

At best Alexander landed a stalemate in the Battle of Hydaspes ending with a truce or at worst defeated decisively .

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## S.Y.A

-blitzkrieg- said:


> If he did not get defeated why his army mutinied?
> If he he didnt get defeated why he couldnt allocate a local governor?
> If he didnt get defeated why he he couldnt assign a tax collector which he was doing for every region he conquered?
> If he wasnt defeated why was the claim of victory written down 300 years after the actual event.
> If he did not get defeated why didnt he go further east but rather turned south?
> 
> At best Alexander landed a stalemate in the Battle of Hydaspes or at worst defeated decisively and ended with truce.


one answer to all those questions: his men had had enough and wanted to go back.

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## -blitzkrieg-

S.Y.A said:


> one answer to all those questions: his men had had enough and wanted to go back.


They probably ran into fawad chaudarys ancestor while in jehlum.

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## Pak Nationalist

-blitzkrieg- said:


> If he did not get defeated why his army mutinied?
> If he he didnt get defeated why he couldnt allocate a local governor?
> If he didnt get defeated why he he couldnt assign a tax collector which he was doing for every region he conquered?
> If he wasnt defeated why was the claim of victory written down 300 years after the actual event.
> If he did not get defeated why didnt he go further east but rather turned south?
> 
> At best Alexander landed a stalemate in the Battle of Hydaspes ending with a truce or at worst defeated decisively .


They mutinied because after defeating Porus Alexander wanted to venture deeper into India, his armies did not. The weather did not suit the Greeks. They had had enough. Porus's resistance may have been the last straw that over fatigued Alexander's armies.


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## -blitzkrieg-

Pak Nationalist said:


> They mutinied because after defeating Porus Alexander wanted to venture deeper into India, his armies did not. The weather did not suit the Greeks. They had had enough. Porus's resistance may have been the last straw that over fatigued Alexander's armies.


If they really had enough they should have went back to their stronghold in Bactria or taxila to his ally ambh..but he did not instead he ran off south where around multan and took more damage..so that goes against your explanation.


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## Adonis

-blitzkrieg- said:


> If he did not get defeated why his army mutinied?
> If he he didnt get defeated why he couldnt allocate a local governor?
> If he didnt get defeated why he he couldnt assign a tax collector which he was doing for every region he conquered?
> If he wasnt defeated why was the claim of victory written down 300 years after the actual event.
> If he did not get defeated why didnt he go further east but rather turned south?
> 
> At best Alexander landed a stalemate in the Battle of Hydaspes ending with a truce or at worst defeated decisively .




This is why


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## -blitzkrieg-

Adonis said:


> This is why
> 
> View attachment 797892


your sharing something we already know, a version..it a version from one side.its the defacto version in absence of a fact checking which is obviously not possible until we get more discoveries in this regard...It has happened multiple times in past infact they they themselves raise question over authenticity of the sources especially since the grand bibliotheique of Alexandria was burnt to ground in great fire that had all the original works and the stories you posted are based on reconsideration 300 years later that can obviously be politically motivated to uphold the greek glory. Plutarch or Arrian may have intentions to create parallels to leaders of that time . Others may have showed off their writing skill and tell an entertaining story, like Curtius Rufus. Regardless ..it doesnt answer several questions i raised didnt get answered in your post...

If they had enough and mutinied why did they go further south?
So they defeated an army 10 times their size but they got scared of monsoon rains??
How can you lose so many soldiers to a war and then not collect the land/booty as satrapy..what was then the purpose of that war in first place....Porus could have been made an ally with no war in first place...

Its also possible that Alexander told fabricated tales about his last encounter to win praise, a single defeat would have landed him in the class he never set out for in first place.

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## Maula Jatt

Famous Sufis/ Punjabi poets and their regions


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## Titanium100

Sainthood 101 said:


> Famous Sufis/ Punjabi poets and their regions
> View attachment 799842



Are you Punjabi? 

I am puzzled by you?


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## Maula Jatt

Titanium100 said:


> Are you Punjabi?
> 
> I am puzzled by you?


I am Martian

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## Battlion25

Sainthood 101 said:


> I am Martian



Seriously what are you?

If I have to make a professional guess you are muhajir Atheiest or Agnostic


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## Maula Jatt

Battlion25 said:


> Seriously what are you?
> 
> If I have to make a professional guess you are muhajir Atheiest or Agnostic







feelings rn

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## Battlion25

Sainthood 101 said:


> View attachment 799848
> 
> feelings rn



Christian Punjab


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## Titanium100

Battlion25 said:


> Christian Punjab



Hindu


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## AsianLion

Punjabis, the best race in the Subcontinent region, The most rich, most successful, hardworking, fighter class, united and most modern intelligent ethnic people in the whole Central-South Asian region.


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## ghazi52

Overflow of River Ravi annually flooded Lahore, Pakistan. King Aurangzeb (1658-1707) built an embankment (اورنگزیبی بند) to save the city. Sikhs & British stole its bricks & floods recurred. Lahore was again flooded in 1952 which resulted in building of existing embankment (بند).




7:57 AM · Dec 10, 2021

Ticker
@hannan021


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## ghazi52

*The forgotten service of Punjabi soldiers during World War I*

As many as 320,000 recruits from the Punjab took part in WWI. It’s time we acknowledged their valour.

Ammad Malik
December 01, 2021


*More than a century after the guns fell silent in Europe, the University of Greenwich has disclosed records of the Punjabi servicemen who played a crucial role in Britain’s WWI victory. The registers had been kept in the basement of the Lahore Museum since they were compiled in 1919, a year after the Great War ended. The records comprise of 26,000 pages providing data on the service record and family background of each individual recruit.*

Historians from Greenwich University have thus far uploaded the data from three districts – Sialkot, Jalandhar and Ludhiana – onto a website. The records from the remaining 25 districts are to be uploaded at a later date.

The British had long admired the ferocity and ruggedness of the Punjabi soldier, who had vanquished one Afghan army after another, during the reign of the legendary Maharaja Ranjit Singh. At a time when other Indian rulers failed to counter the East India Company threat, Ranjit Singh acted with swiftness to negotiate the 1809 Treaty of Amritsar. The truce would hold till the Maharaja’s death in 1839, an event which ultimately paved the way for Punjab’s annexation into British India. 

Despite the power vacuum and constant infighting between _khalsa _generals in the years following Ranjit Singh’s demise; it had taken the British a combination of two costly wars and treachery to complete the conquest of Punjab. The historian Amarpal Singh argues that troops of the East India Company came within an inch of total defeat at the 1849 Battle of Chilianwala, but were able to recover as the _khalsa _held back from a decisive blow.

After the British Indian army was reorganised following the failed 1857 sepoy mutiny, Punjab emerged as the chief recruiting pool for the imperial armed forces. British colonialism began to eulogise Punjab as ‘_our Prussia_’ and Victorian racial ideology cultivated Punjabis as a ‘_loyal military race_’. By the time European armies began to mobilise in summer 1914, the ‘_Punjabisation_’ of the Indian armed forces was complete. Over a million Indians would serve overseas in WWI – with Punjab contributing the lion’s share of recruits.

German war planners had initially expected a quick victory against the Allied powers. The Kaiser’s General Staff hoped to achieve this by text-book execution of the so-called ‘_Schlieffen Plan_’. For the plan to succeed; Germany would have to invade the Low countries and defeat the French Army before the Russians on the Eastern front could mobilise. The Germans would then divert troops to the Russian theatre, thereby avoiding a two-front war. Though the German war strategy made sense in theory; it was unrealistic as it required a flawless unfolding of events.

One of the first major setbacks to the _Schlieffen Plan _was the Battle of Yrpes in autumn 1914, where Punjabi soldiers played a pivotal role in stalling the German juggernaut. The delay would prove fatal to Berlin’s war ambitions as it allowed critical time for British and French troops to shore up their defenses. Recruits from the Punjab would distinguish themselves in battle again at Neuve Chapelle. The British led offensive at Chapelle initially broke through German lines but was later halted after heavy causalities on both sides. More than a thousand Punjabi soldiers lost their lives during the ill-planned attempt at taking Gallipoli. The gallantry of Punjabi troops at Gallipoli has only recently come to light, after a book on the subject was published by Peter Stanley. 

Professor Stanley, who extensively studied Australian accounts of the battle, found multiple mentions of a Sikh infantryman named Karam Singh. As narrated by Australian veterans, Karam Singh was blinded after being hit by an artillery shell but had continued to fight and rally Allied troops.
Other theatres of WWI where Punjabi recruits served par excellence include Africa and Mesopotamia. The British Indian Army won a total of nine Victoria Crosses in the Great War – with eight of them going to Punjabi soldiers.

While the contribution of Sikh soldiers in WWI is now being recognised globally after the release of the war film ‘_1917’_, there hasn’t yet been a notable attempt to shed light on the war service of regions comprising Pakistani Punjab. Historians in Pakistan are certainly guilty of ignoring the subject, but Indian military writers have also worked overtime to project the battlefield success of Punjabi soldiers in the war as an exclusively ‘Sikh’ triumph. 

However, a closer study of recruitment patterns reveals that the bulk of troops who fought in the Great War were drawn from West Punjab, part of modern day Pakistan. Contrary to the narrative set by Indian authors, Punjabi Muslims formed by far the largest group of recruits (156,300), followed by Hindus (63,900).

The participation of Sikhs in WWI- around 62,000 - paled in comparison to that of the Muslims and even dwarfed the number of Hindu volunteers from the province. The highest volunteer rates were recorded in areas such as Chakwal, Gujar Khan and Jhelum. The Rawalpindi division alone provided 120,000 soldiers, by far the highest of any region in British India. Part of the explanation why so many men from West Punjab enlisted in the imperial armed forces lies in economics. 

Recruitment rates were highest in arid regions, where agriculture alone did not provide a stable income. The British understood this and ran a village to village campaign promising volunteers economic incentives such as cash and land holdings in return for war service. Cultural factors played a role too. Prestige or ‘_izzat’ _in Punjabi villages has long been associated with combat experience. For many recruits, the war provided them a chance to win highly coveted gallantry awards such as the Victoria Cross which would etch their names in village folklore.

Historians from the subcontinent have traditionally been very critical of Punjab’s role in the freedom movement and have accused Punjabis of being complicit in the imperial exploitation of India. Though this viewpoint holds some merit, the experience of Punjabi recruits in WWI served in many ways as a catalyst for the independence movement in India. 

The Punjabis were the first Indian community which traveled to the west in great numbers and witnessed its blatant double standards. The imperial powers of Britain and France claimed to be fighting for freedom, while they denied that same right to the colonies. WWI convinced both Punjab and India, that the ‘white man’ was not invincible. If Punjabi soldiers could beat back wave after wave of German attacks, then India too could win freedom from the British.

The acknowledgment of Punjab’s contribution in WWI, especially that of Muslims, would also help in combating Islamophobia and racism faced by the Pakistani diaspora in the UK. British Pakistanis, most of whom are Punjabis, are eyed with suspicion and their patriotism is questioned by far-right parties such as the UKIP. A sustained diplomatic and public relations drive, led by the Pakistani government, can play a crucial role in informing British citizens of the Great War’s forgotten history. On the domestic front, the Punjab government should sponsor academic research on the subject, so that future generations won’t have to rely on foreign sources for historical study.


WRITTEN BY:
Ammad Malik

The writer is a defence and security analyst based in Lahore, Pakistan. His work focuses on Pakistan’s relationship with the Middle East and issues concerning military strategy.

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## SaadH

ghazi52 said:


> Overflow of River Ravi annually flooded Lahore, Pakistan. King Aurangzeb (1658-1707) built an embankment (اورنگزیبی بند) to save the city. *Sikhs & British stole its bricks & floods recurred. *Lahore was again flooded in 1952 which resulted in building of existing embankment (بند).
> 
> 
> 
> 7:57 AM · Dec 10, 2021
> 
> Ticker
> @hannan021


I thought after listening to the liberals degenerates of Pakistan, Ranjeet Singh and Sikh rule was the best thing that happened to the Punjab region.


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## Maula Jatt

_*Conversions to Islam in Punjab *_

*Introduction:*

How Punjabis became Muslims is an often ignored topic, in fact the entire genre of Punjabi Muslim history is neglected by Punjabi Muslims themselves. Without an in-depth analysis because it deserves a post of its own, this is due to the watering down of Punjabi identity with roots in colonialism and facilitated by certain elements in the state post 1947. The amplification of regional identities within the Punjabi sphere which had no conception pre-1950s and still cant articulate who they are is one example. So, how did Punjabis become Muslim? I try my best to illuminate the process which lead the residents of Panchnada to the Muhammadan faith.

*Arrival of Islam:*

If we are to look to Indian subcontinent as a whole, Islam arrived right during Hazrat Muhammad S.A.W’s time, a companion by the name of Hazrat Malik bin Deenar R.A. himself arrived on the South Indian West Coast. However, since the focus is Punjab, Islam in Panchnada or the Greeks called it Penta Potamia came with Muhammad Bin Qasim’s invasion in which Sindh along with parts of Southern Punjab were annexed into the Umayyad Caliphate in 712 AD.

Upper Punjab was introduced to Islam via Mahmud Ghaznavi’s invasions against the Punjab based, Hindu Shahi dynasty. After the state was finally subdued and Ghaznavid state formally established in Punjab is when we see a formal introduction of the Deen. Ali Hujwiri (1009-1077) who is popularly known as Data Ganj Baksh’s migration from Ghazni, Khorasan now the modern nation state of Afghanistan to Punjab in order to carry out missionary work marks a watershed moment. He wrote the Kashaf-ul-Mahjub which is regarded as the oldest Persian treatise on Sufism in Punjab & his mazaar is in Lahore.

*Forced Conversions:*

The common misconception is that Muslims in subcontinent converted due to fear of the sword. The narrative makes it appear as if conquest = conversion, but it is a false belief. For instance, after Muhammad Bin Qasim annexed Sind and parts of Southern Punjab at age 17, his administration was full of Hindu Brahmins due to their experience in governance and familiarity with local political climate, which made them invaluable to the Arab conquerors. The conquest of Multan was welcomed by the non-Hindu groups particularly the Jats (not-Hindu), who had been oppressed according to Lane Poole. Majority of population of Sindh was Buddhist and had no intention of defending their homeland for a Hindu sovereign [4]. 

Poole describes “The work of conquest, as often happened in India, was thus aided by the disunion of the inhabitants, and jealousies of race and creed conspired to help the Muslims.” [6]

The temples were largely left alone partly due to revenue they provided to the new administration via pilgrim tributes. This is not to say there weren’t instances of desecration, but to say there was a systematic attempt to “submit” people to Islam by destroying temples and executing those who refused, a narrative peddled by some corners is completely false.

When Ghaznavid governor of Hindustan territories, Ahmad Niyaltigin (Turk) rebelled, Sultan Masud (reign 1030-1041) sent a Hindu General, Rai Tilak to take care of the problem. Tilak in fact volunteered for this role and was happily accepted for being a native of Hindustan. Tilak’s army was composed of his fellow Hindus who upon entering Lahore, captured Niyaltigin’s Muslim followers and cut off their hands to spread terror which lead to many desertions. Niyaltigin took to flight, who was eventually caught and killed by the Jats who had an agreement with Tilak. Sultan Masud would invite Tilak to the Ghaznavid court along with the head of Niyaltigin. Lastly, besides being Hindu, Tilak was not a high born, but a son of a barber and his rise in Ghaznavid ranks was based purely on merit [1].

The Hindu section of Ghaznavid army was used as a counter balance Turkish commanders who were disposed as they would not sympathize and cause a rebellion. Of the many examples, when Sultan Masud cornered his uncle Yusuf Subuktigin by arresting him in a fortress, the cavalry responsible for the transport was Hindu (or Sawar-i-Hindu). 

Besides the army, Hindu vassals also supplemented Ghaznavid forces in times of need. Rais and Rana are two names that appear when in 1151, Sultan Bahram Shah intercepted Ghurid, Alauddin. These are not anomaly as there were Hindus in Ghaznavi service as well both in the army and administration, according to Seljuk Vizier’s Siyasatnama we discover that the Ghaznavid army had Turks, Hindus, Khurasanis, Arabs & Ghurids that were kept separately for better cohesiveness and to benefit from each group’s ethos which individually contributed to diversity. The leader of the contingent was addressed with the title Sipahsalar-i- Hinduan and were utilized in Ghaznavid battles against Ilak Khan in Balkh & against Khanids. [2]

It is pertinent to mention that Hindu slaves had become so cheap after the fall of Punjab based Hindu Shahi dynasty which the Ghaznavids subdued that even sanitation workers were able to afford one in those days. Of course then there is the infamous sacking of Hindu temples. Then again the objective here was never to negate the exploits of Mahmud Ghaznavi in India, but the underlying point here is forced conversions in Punjab to which we find no reference and the service of Hindus in the upper echelon of Ghaznavid state machinery & Muhammad Bin Qasim’s administration only prove that there was no systemic attempt at forcing Islam on non-Muslims. [2]

Another thing to add is that the non-Muslim involvement in state affairs only grew with subsequent rulers, for example at one point the Grand Vizier of Mughal Empire was a Punjabi Hindu by the name Rai Todal Mal during Akbar’s reign, unarguably the peak of Mughals.

If we look at entire Hindustan the overwhelming majority is still non-Muslim, it was the basis of demanding Pakistan as a way to prevent living under a Hindu majority. As mentioned earlier if conversions were forced then surely states like Bihar would be Muslim majority considering that is where all these Muslim rulers based themselves. In Punjab specifically, in 1941 census just over half (53.2%) of Punjab’s population was Muslim, Hindus at 29.1% and Sikhs at just 14.9%. Yet previously in 1881 the census recorded Muslims at 47.6%, Hindus at 43.8% and Sikhs at 8.2%. [3]. And according to this same 1881 census half of Jatt population did not even convert to Islam even after a thousand plus years of the Religion’s presence in Punjab. [4]

*Process of Conversions in Punjab:*

One of the main issues with the argument of Muslims converting to Islam forcibly is that Punjab has always remained a periphery territory for Delhi based Central Asian Muslim rulers where this supposed forced Islamization were to occur. Wouldn’t places like Uttar Pradesh be majority Muslim given the duration of Islamic rule in Hindustan? Yet Interior Indian remained overwhelmingly non-Muslim. Bengal is another example of a periphery territory with a substantive Muslim population.

So, if it wasn’t the fear of the sword then what was it which lead to the Islamization of Punjab? The answer according to scholar Richard Eaton are shrines built on gravesite of Sufi saints, which operated as an institution. Prominent ones being in Taunsa, Makhad, Siyal Sharif, Sharqpur and of course Lahore which were located near the great rivers of Punjab whose dawah activities would bring Punjabis to Islam. Beyond the urban areas during dry seasons the nomads who were mostly Jats would bring their animals to the river areas, which would then have them rub shoulders with urban folk and their new faith. It is important to note, Jats were not Hindus.

As stated these shrines were an institution on their own, which connected the various tribes to the center in Delhi. Ghazi Malik who went on to found the Tughluq state and became known as Giyasuddin Tughluq was a regular at Pakpattan shrine during his days as a Dipalpur governor for Khaljis, where he was told by the diwan that his descendants will rule India, which of course became a reality. The two battles which lead to the formulation of Tughlaq dynasty had a significant presence & role of Khokhars, whether the common denominator was the Pakpattan shrine is a question I cant answer for sure. State patronage would follow and shrine keepers were even honored with robes and even employed in to imperial service.

Khokhars, Bhattis, Wattus & Siyals all claim to have been converted during Baba Farid’s (1173-1266) time & as mentioned all were willing to raise an army at the call of the shrine’s diwan [5]. The marriage alliances between clans and shrine keepers only strengthened this relationship, the great Punjabi rebel Jasrath Khokhar himself was father in law to Shaykh Faizullah of Pakpattan shrine according to a 16th century book, Jawahir-i-Faridi. [5]. The process of conversions was gradual and took a few centuries to complete, but its clear Islam had been present in Punjab well before even the Mughals had set foot & more or less the major tribes in Punjab had already converted.

*Personal Thoughts & Conclusion:*

So, it becomes evident that Islam in Punjab was spread not due to fear of the sword nor do Punjabi Musalmaan owe their conversion to any ruler especially not Ahmad Shah Abdali. A baseless lie often used to insult Punjabis, but well before the havoc caused by Abdali, Punjabi Muslims had already given birth to people like Ahmad Sirhindi (1564-1624) who is widely credited as Mujadid of his era & “reviver of second millennium”. Shaykh Sama’al-Din Kamboh, a Punjabi was in fact spiritual advisor to the Lodhi dynasty. The Gakhars who kept rebelling against Suri and for whom an entire Rohtas fort was built to keep them in check were also Muslims.


Anas reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, would often say, “*O Turner of the hearts, affirm my heart upon Your religion!*” I said, “O Messenger of Allah, we believe in you and in that with which you were sent. Do you fear for us?” The Prophet said, “*Yes, for the hearts are between the fingers of Allah. He turns them whichever way He wills.*”

Source: Sunan al-Tirmidhī 2140 [7]

Therefore, the fact that half of Punjab was still non-Muslim in 1941 shows that no ruler nor any of neighboring ethnic group is responsible for the conversion of Punjabi Muslims, we were a humiliated people (because of not following the straight path) and Allah chose to honor us with his Deen, so he opened the hearts of our elders. However, our non-Muslim past is still our heritage, we should take pride in events such as Porus’ resistance against Alexander the Great and most importantly draw lessons in order to navigate today’s world, take for instance the famous state craft manual Arthashastra, which is the intellectual heritage of Punjab should not be dismissed because its author was a Hindu is just one example.

Read it in reddit thought should share it here too

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## Maula Jatt

In the Zoroastrian sacred scripture, the Avesta, Panjab is mentioned among the sixteen ‘perfect lands’ created by Ahura Mazda, the chief deity in the Zoroastrian religion: ‘The fifteenth of the good lands and countries which I, Ahura Mazda, created, was the Seven Rivers’


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## PakSarZameen47

Sainthood 101 said:


> In the Zoroastrian sacred scripture, the Avesta, Panjab is mentioned among the sixteen ‘perfect lands’ created by Ahura Mazda, the chief deity in the Zoroastrian religion: ‘The fifteenth of the good lands and countries which I, Ahura Mazda, created, was the Seven Rivers’
> View attachment 812895
> 
> View attachment 812896


Bro are you on reddit?


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## Maula Jatt

PakSarZameen47 said:


> Bro are you on reddit?


Nope, don't use or post on reddit 
Lurker on some topics


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## PakSarZameen47

Sainthood 101 said:


> Nope, don't use or post on reddit
> Lurker on some topics


I've had a look and the ethnic ones seem very toxic ...


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## Maula Jatt



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## Mirzali Khan

20th Punjab Infantry: Waziristan campaign, 3rd November 1894 to March 1895, on the North-West Frontier of India: picture by Walter Fane

@Sainthood 101

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## Mirzali Khan

Punjab Frontier Force (‘PIFFERS’) 1st Punjab Regiment, 1st Punjab Cavalry, 3rd Sikhs and Punjab Mountain Battery: Waziristan campaign, 3rd November 1894 to March 1895 on the North-West Frontier of India: picture by Richard Simkin

@Sainthood 101


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## Maula Jatt

jus_chillin said:


> View attachment 815031
> 
> 
> 20th Punjab Infantry: Waziristan campaign, 3rd November 1894 to March 1895, on the North-West Frontier of India: picture by Walter Fane
> 
> @Sainthood 101


damn it seems Waziristan is one of those never ending campaigns, more than 100 years now

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## Mirzali Khan

Sainthood 101 said:


> damn it seems Waziristan is one of those never ending campaigns, more than 100 years now



Yea that place has never seen peace. I have more pics of Punjab regiment I'll share. Instead of the usual stuff on this forum I think showcasing our history and culture would be a good thing. I'll tag you while I dump stuff here lmao.

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## Maula Jatt

jus_chillin said:


> Yea that place has never seen peace. I have more pics of Punjab regiment I'll share. Instead of the usual stuff on this forum I think showcasing our history and culture would be a good thing. I'll tag you while I dump stuff here lmao.


dude if you have stuff/tweets from pre-britsh era history that'll be cool to

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## Mirzali Khan

Sainthood 101 said:


> dude if you have stuff/tweets from pre-britsh era history that'll be cool to



Yea I'll try to look for that 22g

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## Maula Jatt

interesting take on porous

Ancient university of Taxila reconstructed (near Islamabad/Rawalpindi)

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## Mirzali Khan

From the Huns to the Turks the age of cavalry dominated the life scene. Many Rock carvings in Central Punjab show men riding, even standing on horse back and brandishing their swords and shooting arrows.

Pakistan - History Through The Centuries by Dr Ahmad Hasan Dani










@Sainthood 101 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1492442529828163584

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## Maula Jatt

Punjab Revolts: The role of Rai Ahmad Khan Kharal in 1857 War of Independence https://punjabiwaseb.com/2020/09/20...mad-khan-kharral-in-1857-war-of-independence/

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## Mirzali Khan

Sainthood 101 said:


> 1857 War of Independence



The one where even Hindus joined Muslims in their jihad against the British, but a certain group supported the British lol

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## Maula Jatt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1482197662224945152


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## Zarrar Alvi

I do not wana brag about it but the Punjabis are the reason that Indian forces are on a constant fear and depression in IOK , in all the major attacks Punjabi Mujahids of the south Punjab and central Punjab had inflicted heavy damage to them like just recently in Poonch. This is the reason they out of Fear label every Pak mujahid and Army official as Punjabis .

In an intercepts regarding Poonch assault we heard one of their Officer asking about his ground soldiers about who the fighters are and he said " Punjabi hain to bachk kay ye gardan katay gay "

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## Maula Jatt

Zarrar Alvi said:


> I do not wana brag about it but the Punjabis are the reason that Indian forces are on a constant fear and depression in IOK , in all the major attacks Punjabi Mujahids of the south Punjab and central Punjab had inflicted heavy damage to them like just recently in Poonch. This is the reason they out of Fear label every Pak mujahid and Army official as Punjabis .


But we are also loving people 😊
Land of mirzah Jatt and Sahiba 
https://medium.com/illumination/mirza-sahiba-and-the-wise-old-men-45aa2788bdca


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## Zarrar Alvi

Sainthood 101 said:


> But we are also loving people 😊
> Land of mirzah Jatt and Sahiba
> https://medium.com/illumination/mirza-sahiba-and-the-wise-old-men-45aa2788bdca
> View attachment 815048


 "hum Phool be hain aur Talwar be hain"

Punjabi Fighters of Border Action Team after a Raid on the Indian Gorkha Patrolling team

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## Mirzali Khan

Punjab Frontier Force infantry regiment: Waziristan campaign, 3rd November 1894 to March 1895, on the North-West Frontier of India

@Sainthood 101

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## Maula Jatt

Jasrath Khokhar, rebel forever.​The last one thousand years of Punjab’s political history is that of resistance and grit and Jasrath Khokhar is another name in the line of men that rose in revolt against foreign invaders. He was the son of Shaikha Khokhar, chief of the Khokhar tribe and ruled between Ravi and Chenab. Tabaqat-i-Akbari describes them “being Hindus by descent they had become converts to Islam”. The Khokhars are some of the earliest converts to Islam because they came under the influence of Baba Farid (1173-1266) according to Ali Asghar Chishti, who wrote Jawahar-i-Faridi while on a pilgrimage to the shrine in 1652.

The document also mentions a list of marriage alliances between indigenous clans and heads of shrines, Jasrath Khokhar is mentioned as father in law to Shaikh Faizullah. Interestingly, he is referred to as Malik Jasrath Khokhar, symbolizing political clout. These marriage alliances allowed shrine families to practice social and material influence on tribes capable of raising small armies of their own, which lead to being patronized by the Delhi Sultanate. This process also connected the various tribes of Punjab with the center (Delhi), the Pakpattan (West Punjab) Chishti shrine for instance played a prominent role especially during the Tughlaq era and the dynasty founder Ghazi Malik was a visitor even during his days as a Khilji governor.

Couple things to note are firstly, Tarikh-e-Firishta calls Jasrath Khokhar, a Gakhar. Secondly, in the Pakistani context, the heavily read Indus Saga by Aitzaz Ahsan makes the same error. However, it is essential to point out that Jasrath was a Khokhar and both Gakhar and Khokhars are different tribes of distinct origins.

There is no information available on Jasrath Khokhar’s early life. His story begins with Timur’s invasion where he resisted the Turco-Mongol with a thousand troops on his side. His father Shaikha Khokhar was later killed by Timur’s grandson Pir Muhammad and Jasrath was made prisoner and taken back to the Persian city of Samarkand (now in Uzbekistan). The details regarding the incident are not clear, but it is said Jasrath escaped from Samarkand and made his back to his homeland and takeover the leadership of the Khokhar tribe.

*Kashmir Affair:*

The Sultan of Kashmir, Ali Shah left the administration to his brother Shahi Khan to go on a trip to Jammu, however, when he returned, his brother Shahi Khan had usurped him. Ali Shah with the help of local chiefs regains his throne & Shahi Khan finds himself exiled in Sialkot. There he asks Jasrath Khokhar to help him to the throne of Kashmir & in 1420 Sultan Ali Shah is defeated by Jasrath Khokhar. Whether, Sultan Ali Shah died in captivity of executed by Jasrath is unclear.

Shahi Khan would then proclaim himself as Zain-ul-Abidin and go on to rule Kashmir for FIFTY years. This victory would earn Jasrath Khokhar large amount of booty and a favour with a king who would finance his future ventures. The 15th century courtier of Mubarak Shah of Delhi Sultanate in his account Tarikh-i-Mubarik Shahi describes “Jasrath Khokhar was an imprudent rustic. Intoxicated with victory, and elated with the strength of his forces, he began to have visions of Delhi”.

*Aspirations for Delhi:*

The death of Sultan of Delhi Sultanate and founder of Sayyid dynasty, Khizr Khan (reign 1414-1421) would encourage Jasrath Khokhar to march towards Delhi. He had also been joined by a new rebel, Tughan Rai who was formerly Ludhiana’s Emir, but his territories were taken away due to his rebellion. The order of business started with sacking Ludhiana and besting Rai Firoz Main, the main Ludhiana governor at Talwandi (near modern day Ludhiana, Indian Punjab). After taking over Ludhiana, Jasrath now moved on to Sirhind on June 22, 1421 which was being held by Sultan Shah Lodi. Jasrath was unable to take this fort and the siege had to be cut short due to rain. This gave Sirhind Emir, Sultan Shah Lodi time to bring reinforcements and call for help from the capital, Delhi which was ruled by Sultan Mubarak Shah (reign 1421-1434), second ruler of the Sayyid Dynasty.

Jasrath had now retreated back to Ludhiana and both the Delhi Sultan and his Sirhind Emir marched towards the Khokhar camp. By then Jasrath had already crossed over Sutlej and both armies kept an eye on each other’s movements from the opposite sides of the river. There would be skirmishes between the Sultanate and Jasrath’s armies for forty days and the situation reached a stalemate.

Sultan Mubarak Shah would then send a detachment at night lead by his prominent nobles, Zirak Khan who was made a prisoner in Ludhiana earlier by Jasrath, but was released (or escaped), Sikandar Tohfa and Mahmud Hasan to name some. This action would take Jasrath by surprise who then fled towards Jalandhar, crossed Beas, then Ravi while being pursued by the Delhi Sultan, Mubarak Shah. The Sultan chased Jasrath Khokhar into Kashmir hill tracts helped by an old enemy of Jasrath, Rai Bhim of Jammu. However, Jasrath would evade Mubarak Shah again and the latter realized it was futile to continue pursuing and instead returned back to Delhi in December 1421 or January 1422.

After three months of Sultan Mubarak Shah retreating back to Lahore, Jasrath Khokhar would fall back on Punjab after collecting a force of local zamindars and attack Lahore in May 1422. For next five months he is said to have engaged in skirmishes with the Imperial Army all over Punjab without making any territorial gains.

Delhi Sultanate would once again assign its prominent nobles including Jasrath’s old foe, Rai Bhim (ruler of Jammu) to aid Malik Mahmud and the Delhi Sultan dispatched Sikander Tuhfa as well for the job & this alliance would defeat the Khokhar chief forcing him to go back to his Tilhar, Kashmir stronghold.

*Victory at Jammu:*

Jasrath Khokhar would keep a low profile for a bit which would then make the Delhi state officials lose sight. Then a year later out of nowhere he descended upon the Jammu ruler, Rai Bhim, ravaged his territories and killed him in battle in April 1423. This campaign would earn him significant booty and would dragoon his ten to twelve thousand troops on both foot and horse in to his own army. By now Sikandar Tohfa who was earlier sent out by the Sultan in Delhi became Emir of Lahore. He crossed Chenab to crush Jasrath Khokhar, but retreated without succeeding. It is unclear if this was due to a military defeat or whether Jasrath was evasive.

*Frustrated:*

For someone who aspired to rule India, Jasrath was realizing his incapacity to meet Delhi Sultanate’s army in open engagements and his guerilla warfare was not sustainable if he wanted to make permanent gains. With the current method he could not even hold territories in Punjab let alone anything further than that. He would attempt to get Timur’s grandson Shaikh Ali, the governor of Kabul involved, but nothing would come of that. Other sources claim Shaikh Ali did appear in Punjab for a short period only to return without making any gains.

*Waiting game:*

Jasrath Khokhar won’t rebel for five years from 1423-1428 because he was busy strengthening his position within his tribal domain and building up military strength. Then he would appear in the middle of 1428 to cause trouble once again and lay siege to Kalanaur in modern day Gurdaspur district of Indian Punjab. Sikandar Tohfa, the Emir of Lahore then comes to assist forcing Jasrath Khokhar to retreat yet again. As Sikandar marched back, Jasrath Khokhar would cross Beas to Jallandhar and sack the place, but could not hold it due to the nature of the fort there.

The incensed Sultan of Delhi, Mubarak Shah would dispatch Emir of Samana, Zirak Khan, Emir of Sirhind, now Islam Khan, so they can assist Sikandar Tohfa, the Emir of Lahore. However, Sikandar had already left for Jallandhar and with the help of Rai Ghalib Kalanauri, a local tribal chief, he decisively defeated Jasrath Khokhar who was forced to leave behind his spoils as well.

The years 1430 to 1433 see Delhi Sultanate become a shell of itself with rebellions all over the place and the state having to send military expeditions to collect taxes. Katehar, Bayana, Mewat, Gwalior, Etawah and many others were openly refused to pay the Delhi government. The three main players that would go on to cause the most headache were: Jasrath Khokhar of Punjab, Faulad Turkbacha who was a slave soldier of the Emir of Bathinda (Eastern Punjab) & Shaikh Ali, the Governor of Kabul province on behalf of Timurids.

Faulad Turkbacha had revolted after the death of his Bathinda Emir and the Sultan laid siege to his fort in Bathinda. There were rounds of negotiations of surrender, but Turkbacha would continue resisting who would hold out for six months. Then he would reach out to Shaikh Ali, the Kabul Timurid lieutenant to come assist in exchange for a fee, which the former he would accept.

Shaikh Ali’s arrival would force Delhi Sultanate commanders to raise the siege and retire from Bathinda. Faulad Turkbacha would fulfill his promise of 2 lakh tankas. However, the invader would change his mind and take Turkbacha’s women and children as hostage to plunder his lands as well for more wealth. 

*Return to the scene:*

Although, Shaikh Ali would later be expelled by Delhi Sultanate with great effort from Punjab, Jasrath Khokhar would take advantage of this turmoil and decided to appear again and resume his rebellious ways in November 1431. The Lahore Emir, Sikandar Tohfa who would force Jasrath to retreat earlier saw himself defeated and captured by the Khokhar chief in Jallandhar. He would take the Emir with him to lay siege to Lahore itself which was now being defended by Sikandar’s deputy Syed Najmuddin. Shaikh Ali would also come back and sack Multan and sparing no one be it the qazis, scholars of families.

Meanwhile, Faulad Turkbacha would also come out of his Bathinda stronghold to cause trouble. The Sultan of Delhi, Mubarak Shah would emerge once again to establish order and Shaikh Ali would return to Kabul and Jasrath Khokhar would raise his Lahore siege and carry Sikandar Tohfa back to his Tillhar hills camp in Kashmir. The Sultan would appoint a new Emir to Lahore, Nusrat Khan who would repel another Khokhar attack in July 1432.

*Faulad Turkbacha falls:*

The Sultan of Sayyid Dynasty, Mubarak Shah would decide to end the Turkbacha problem once and for all and would lay siege to his Bathinda fort again joined by his commanders such as Zirak & Islam Khan and Kahun Raj. He would reassign the Lahore and Jallandhar territories to Allahdad Kaka Lodi who would set his sights on neutralizing Jasrath Khokhar, a venture which would end in defeat and retiring to Kothi (Eastern Punjab).

Shaikh Ali would return again in January 1433, to help his ally and attack the officers laying siege to his fort, but a pre-emptive measure would force him to turn to Lahore and continue looting and ravaging there. Sikandar Tohfa had now been released by Jasrath Khokhar under conditions that are not clear, who will now be assigned Dipalpur and Jallandhar so he can take care of the Shaikh Ali issue who would be compelled to return back to Kabul. In November 1433, the siege would conclude with Turkbacha’s severed head sent to Delhi.

*The Switch & Kingmakers:*

After his 1432 win on Allahdad Kaka Lodhi at Bajwara (Eastern Punjab) Jasrath Khokhar had kept a low profile. The rise of Bahlol Lodhi who would go on to form the Lodhi dynasty saw a surprise change of events where the former captive of Jasrath Khokhar, Sikandar Tohfa asked for his help to push Lodhi back. The result of this alliance was Bahlol Lodhi defeated and forced to retreat in Siwalik foothills. However, overtime the Delhi Sultanate now ruled by Sultan Muhammad Shah was compelled to acknowledge Bahlol’s rise in Punjab and accept his territorial claims in 1441 on condition that he would crush Jasrath Khokhar. The Khokhar chief would rebel again in same year, but Bahlol Lodhi and Jasrath would make peace and promised not to interfere in each other’s domains. The Khokhar neutrality towards Bahlol’s aspirations is said to have played a part in the establishment of Lodhi dynasty, whose disturbances were serious enough to keep Delhi Sultanate’s best nobles including three of the four Sayyid dynasty Sultans themselves busy on and off for twenty years.

This would also be the second time the Khokhars would play kingmakers, as over a century before all this, the army which goes on to found the Tughlaq dynasty had a large presence of Khokhars according to the famous Amir Khusrau. The 14th century historian, Abdul Malik Isami highlights Gul Chand and Sahij Rai as the two prominent Khokhars who played a significant role on the battlefield on behalf of Ghazi Malik or Ghiyasuddin Tughlaq who would go on to form the Tughlaq dynasty.

*Conclusion:*

Nothing is sure as to what happened to Jasrath Khokhar after the Bahlul Lodhi peace agreement in 1441, but it is believed he passed away in 1442 and the details about his death are not clear. Even if he was twenty years old at the time of the Timur engagement in 1398, by his death (1442) he would be about sixty four years of age. More importantly, he was in a continuous state of rebellion for 20 years against the Delhi Sultanate in which at no point did he accept Delhi’s suzerainty over him. Jasrath Khokhar is another fascinating character in Punjabi Muslim history, whose story (although never told in our schools) is of eternal grit and resistance and much like Adina Arain he took it upon himself to navigate the tricky political waters of Punjab to carve out a space for himself.









Jasrath Khokhar, rebel forever.


The last one thousand years of Punjab’s political history is that of resistance and grit and Jasrath Khokhar is another name in the line of men that rose in revolt against foreign invaders. H…




punjabiwaseb.com





More you look at history more you realize how accurate game of thrones is in describing medevil history

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## Raja Porus

@Indus Pakistan is it true that Alexander received an arrow into the lungs while he along with two of his soldiers jumped in the fortress of Multan, during the Mallian campaign?

Also The Cophen(Kabul) campaign of Alexander was not faught in modern Kabul city but in the valleys along the KABUL RIVER i.e major battles were faught in Dir, Swat and Kunar. All of these battles were faught by Pakhtuns and not Afghans, hence this quote↓ is about Pushtuns, not Afgs https://t.co/IjfJqxeIo3

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## Maula Jatt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1392404534333411331

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## lastofthepatriots

Sainthood 101 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1392404534333411331
> View attachment 815840

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## Talwar e Pakistan

Sainthood 101 said:


> In the Zoroastrian sacred scripture, the Avesta, Panjab is mentioned among the sixteen ‘perfect lands’ created by Ahura Mazda, the chief deity in the Zoroastrian religion: ‘The fifteenth of the good lands and countries which I, Ahura Mazda, created, was the Seven Rivers’
> View attachment 812895
> 
> View attachment 812896


Hapta Hindava is not solely Punjab.

It is the equivalent of the Sanskrit "Sapta Sindhava"; "Seven Rivers" and encompasses the lands between the Helmand and Beas rivers.


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## Joe Shearer

jus_chillin said:


> From the Huns to the Turks the age of cavalry dominated the life scene. Many Rock carvings in Central Punjab show men riding, even standing on horse back and brandishing their swords and shooting arrows.
> 
> Pakistan - History Through The Centuries by Dr Ahmad Hasan Dani
> 
> View attachment 815041
> 
> View attachment 815042
> 
> 
> @Sainthood 101
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1492442529828163584


From the Sakas, the tribe also known as Scythians, to the Turks, if you like. They far preceded the Huns.



Zarrar Alvi said:


> I do not wana brag about it but the Punjabis are the reason that Indian forces are on a constant fear and depression in IOK , in all the major attacks Punjabi Mujahids of the south Punjab and central Punjab had inflicted heavy damage to them like just recently in Poonch. This is the reason they out of Fear label every Pak mujahid and Army official as Punjabis .
> 
> In an intercepts regarding Poonch assault we heard one of their Officer asking about his ground soldiers about who the fighters are and he said " Punjabi hain to bachk kay ye gardan katay gay "


Ah, yes, the uprising exclusively of the people of the Valley. 

Quite so.

Is it all right if I quote your post?


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## Joe Shearer

Sainthood 101 said:


> When Ghaznavid governor of Hindustan territories, Ahmad Niyaltigin (Turk) rebelled, Sultan Masud (reign 1030-1041) sent a Hindu General, Rai Tilak to take care of the problem. Tilak in fact volunteered for this role and was happily accepted for being a native of Hindustan. Tilak’s army was composed of his fellow Hindus who upon entering Lahore, captured Niyaltigin’s Muslim followers and cut off their hands to spread terror which lead to many desertions. Niyaltigin took to flight, who was eventually caught and killed by the Jats who had an agreement with Tilak. Sultan Masud would invite Tilak to the Ghaznavid court along with the head of Niyaltigin. Lastly, besides being Hindu, Tilak was not a high born, but a son of a barber and his rise in Ghaznavid ranks was based purely on merit [1].
> 
> The Hindu section of Ghaznavid army was used as a counter balance Turkish commanders who were disposed as they would not sympathize and cause a rebellion. Of the many examples, when Sultan Masud cornered his uncle Yusuf Subuktigin by arresting him in a fortress, the cavalry responsible for the transport was Hindu (or Sawar-i-Hindu).
> 
> Besides the army, Hindu vassals also supplemented Ghaznavid forces in times of need. Rais and Rana are two names that appear when in 1151, Sultan Bahram Shah intercepted Ghurid, Alauddin. These are not anomaly as there were Hindus in Ghaznavi service as well both in the army and administration, according to Seljuk Vizier’s Siyasatnama we discover that the Ghaznavid army had Turks, Hindus, Khurasanis, Arabs & Ghurids that were kept separately for better cohesiveness and to benefit from each group’s ethos which individually contributed to diversity. The leader of the contingent was addressed with the title Sipahsalar-i- Hinduan and were utilized in Ghaznavid battles against Ilak Khan in Balkh & against Khanids. [2]
> 
> It is pertinent to mention that Hindu slaves had become so cheap after the fall of Punjab based Hindu Shahi dynasty which the Ghaznavids subdued that even sanitation workers were able to afford one in those days. Of course then there is the infamous sacking of Hindu temples. Then again the objective here was never to negate the exploits of Mahmud Ghaznavi in India, but the underlying point here is forced conversions in Punjab to which we find no reference and the service of Hindus in the upper echelon of Ghaznavid state machinery & Muhammad Bin Qasim’s administration only prove that there was no systemic attempt at forcing Islam on non-Muslims. [2]
> 
> Another thing to add is that the non-Muslim involvement in state affairs only grew with subsequent rulers, for example at one point the Grand Vizier of Mughal Empire was a Punjabi Hindu by the name Rai Todal Mal during Akbar’s reign, unarguably the peak of Mughals.
> 
> If we look at entire Hindustan the overwhelming majority is still non-Muslim, it was the basis of demanding Pakistan as a way to prevent living under a Hindu majority. As mentioned earlier if conversions were forced then surely states like Bihar would be Muslim majority considering that is where all these Muslim rulers based themselves. In Punjab specifically, in 1941 census just over half (53.2%) of Punjab’s population was Muslim, Hindus at 29.1% and Sikhs at just 14.9%. Yet previously in 1881 the census recorded Muslims at 47.6%, Hindus at 43.8% and Sikhs at 8.2%. [3]. And according to this same 1881 census half of Jatt population did not even convert to Islam even after a thousand plus years of the Religion’s presence in Punjab. [4]


A fascinating passage.



Zarrar Alvi said:


> Punjabi Fighters of Border Action Team after a Raid on the Indian Gorkha Patrolling team


They never existed, according to Pakistani comments when these teams were mentioned in Indian media reports.

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## Joe Shearer

ghazi52 said:


> After the British Indian army was reorganised following the failed 1857 sepoy mutiny, Punjab emerged as the chief recruiting pool for the imperial armed forces. British colonialism began to eulogise Punjab as ‘_our Prussia_’ and Victorian racial ideology cultivated Punjabis as a ‘_loyal military race_’. By the time European armies began to mobilise in summer 1914, the ‘_Punjabisation_’ of the Indian armed forces was complete. Over a million Indians would serve overseas in WWI – with Punjab contributing the lion’s share of recruits.


You might want to read that well-known military analyst AHA on this subject. His being a Hindu from India should not prevent his views being read.

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## Joe Shearer

Sainthood 101 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1392404534333411331
> View attachment 815840


Mean of you.

I take it that when you were deciding to post this, you were chuckling over Alexander probably being between 5' and 5'4" in height.

@Sainthood 101 
A fascinating narrative.


Sainthood 101 said:


> The conquest of Multan was welcomed by the non-Hindu groups particularly the Jats (not-Hindu)





Sainthood 101 said:


> It is important to note, Jats were not Hindus.


In your opinion, or according to your reading, what were the Jats?


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## Maula Jatt

Joe Shearer said:


> Mean of you.
> 
> I take it that when you were deciding to post this, you were chuckling over Alexander probably being between 5' and 5'4" in height.
> 
> @Sainthood 101
> A fascinating narrative.
> 
> 
> 
> In your opinion, or according to your reading, what were the Jats?


Tribes of Sindh who started settling Punjab than haryana, than Hindustan slowly over hundreds of years

Afaik or what I have read at the time they were animist, athiests or thier practices were off the chart, disorganized that they can't be fitted into an organized religion

Some Hindus say every thing is Hindu, or definition of Hinduism is all ancomosing - from that angle probably Hindu
But from that angle he is probably talking about they were not following Vedic/brahminic traditions followed in Hindustan - they had Thier own spirits, gods, societal structure etc etc (ofcourse later down the line centeries later they started accepting mainly Hinduism, than Islam and last Sikhism- in the end Thier old spirits, gods died out(I am hesitant with "gods" cause I even heard some people say they were athiests but did ancestor/spirit worship)

Maybe @Talwar e Pakistan can correct me

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## Joe Shearer

@Sainthood 101
A fascinating narrative.


Sainthood 101 said:


> The conquest of Multan was welcomed by the non-Hindu groups particularly the Jats (not-Hindu)





Sainthood 101 said:


> It is important to note, Jats were not Hindus.


In your opinion, or according to your reading, what were the Jats?


Sainthood 101 said:


> Tribes of Sindh who started settling Punjab than haryana, than Hindustan slowly over hundreds of years
> 
> Afaik or what I have read at the time they were animist, athiests or thier practices were off the chart, disorganized that they can't be fitted into an organized religion
> 
> Some Hindus say every thing is Hindu, or definition of Hinduism is all ancomosing - from that angle probably Hindu
> But from that angle he is probably talking about they were not following Vedic/brahminic traditions followed in Hindustan - they had Thier own spirits, gods, societal structure etc etc (ofcourse later down the line centeries later they started accepting mainly Hinduism, than Islam and last Sikhism- in the end Thier old spirits, gods died out)
> 
> Maybe @Talwar e Pakistan can correct me


I need to think about this one, too.


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## Talwar e Pakistan

Joe Shearer said:


> In your opinion, or according to your reading, what were the Jats?


The Jatts were a pastoralist tribe centered in the lower Indus Valley that began migrating Northwards beginning in the 8th-9th centuries.

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## Maula Jatt

Battle for Sirsa town b/w the small Panjabi polity of Bhattiana & the British in 1803. The Anglo commander was slain, & his army routed by the Panjabi Bhatti cavalrymen. The British btw were at their height during this period. It wasn’t often they lost pitched battles.

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## PakSarZameen47

Sainthood 101 said:


> Battle for Sirsa town b/w the small Panjabi polity of Bhattiana & the British in 1803. The Anglo commander was slain, & his army routed by the Panjabi Bhatti cavalrymen. The British btw were at their height during this period. It wasn’t often they lost pitched battles.
> View attachment 820939


Where did you get this from?


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## Maula Jatt

PakSarZameen47 said:


> Where did you get this from?


Tweet posted a link on your profile

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## Maula Jatt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1503033354538655748

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1503033372934868998

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1503033387895951361

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1503033404262174726

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1503033419298713601

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1503033432515002376


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## Maula Jatt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1503033451208921090

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1503033464261595140

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1503033474927714306

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1503033487389085696

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1503033505722384394
Such a sad yet powerful story
@jus_chillin , @Talwar e Pakistan ,@Great Janjua


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## u-pun

All punjabies are mixture of following ethnic stocks,and their proportions vary in different castes:
1.Kamboj/Kamboh -They were neolithic iranian people.Apart from Kamboh caste ,most Arain are also predominately from this stock.Pathans,especially yusufzai,also have kamboh blood.
2.Aryan -They migrated around 5000 years from central asia when Kamboh and dravidian stocks were already living in south asia.Khatri/Arora caste represents this stock.Pakistani Sheikhs,Sudhans,Satti,most Syeds,most of upper caste Sairikis/Sindhis,Memons are from khatri/aryan stock.They are more mixed with kamboh stock.
3.Saka -They were scythian people who migrated from central asia around 2600 years ago.Jats are one major caste of this stock.
4.Dravidian -They were oldest native to south asia.Musali/Valmiki/Majhbi Sikh are from this stock.
All castes of Punjab are mixture of these major stocks.Also none of these stocks are identical to original,they are mixed with each other in various proportions depending upon region.
Also mongol(mughal) admixture is more prevalent on pakistani side.

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## Maula Jatt

u-pun said:


> All punjabies are mixture of following ethnic stocks,and their proportions vary in different castes:
> 1.Kamboj/Kamboh -They were neolithic iranian people.Apart from Kamboh caste ,most Arain are also predominately from this stock.Pathans,especially yusufzai,also have kamboh blood.
> 2.Aryan -They migrated around 5000 years from central asia when Kamboh and dravidian stocks were already living in south asia.Khatri/Arora caste represents this stock.Pakistani Sheikhs,Sudhans,Satti,most Syeds,most of upper caste Sairikis/Sindhis,Memons are from khatri/aryan stock.They are more mixed with kamboh stock.
> 3.Saka -They were scythian people who migrated from central asia around 2600 years ago.Jats are one major caste of this stock.
> 4.Dravidian -They were oldest native to south asia.Musali/Valmiki/Majhbi Sikh are from this stock.
> All castes of Punjab are mixture of these major stocks.Also none of these stocks are identical to original,they are mixed with each other in various proportions depending upon region.
> Also mongol(mughal) admixture is more prevalent on pakistani side.


Umh really wasn't interested in eugenics, races etc as thread is mostly about "history" 
But ok ..


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## Maula Jatt

B.K.N said:


> I am sure sakka Scythian etc are lies. Present day Pakistani Punjab has 3 types of majority are those who don't claim any foreign ancestry second largest group are Punjabi balochs. They have large population in western parts of Punjab like bhakkar layyah muzafargarh DG khan rajanpur and third group is those who clsim arab ancestory like syeds but their population is much lower than the other two. And kuch Punjabi speaking pathan bhi hain but I think unki population kam ha


agreed first are ofcourse the native clans, second Kashmiris,Pashtun, Baloch khels and tribes (Baloch are actually more recent and came during British era by removal of native clans and wider demographics shifts in that region)- Niazis, attaulah easakhelvi comes to mind for Pashtun, our current cm and couple other governors etc Baloch-punjabi and than some syeds, abbasis etc

I don't know about sycthian, Martian, pluto that's just some internet thing


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## u-pun

B.K.N said:


> I am sure sakka Scythian etc are lies. Present day Pakistani Punjab has 3 types of majority are those who don't claim any foreign ancestry second largest group are Punjabi balochs. They have large population in western parts of Punjab like bhakkar layyah muzafargarh DG khan rajanpur and third group is those who clsim arab ancestory like syeds but their population is much lower than the other two. And kuch Punjabi speaking pathan bhi hain but I think unki population kam ha


Their is enough evidence - ancient texts,archeological,and genetical.Dravidian castes like musali(many are christian) have high concentration of H haplogroup.They are native.Haplogroup R originated in steppe area(central asia).
Baloch came from north-west iran,ethnically related to kurds and assimilated various other groups in sairaiki belt.There are many jats among baloch.
Sakazai(saka+zai) means children of saka is major pasthun division in Afghanistan and Pakistan.Sakazai tibes like Gillzai,Mandozai,Birakzai etc have counterparts among jats -Gill,Mand,Virk etc respectively.Sakazai are also found among baloch.2500 years ago north-west afghanistan was known as Sakastan.North Afghanisstan is still called Jat Bamiyan by local hazara population.Even today north-east province of Iran is Gilan(means of Gills,even in punjabi) and north-west district of Afghanistan is Takhar - a saka tribe.

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## Maula Jatt

Forgive but never forget these pig shit mofos

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1390964402027909122Great sacrifices were made for Pakistan by our fore fathers
Now it's up to us to make sure Pak becomes a great nation

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Joe Shearer said:


> You might want to read that well-known military analyst AHA on this subject. His being a Hindu from India should not prevent his views being read.


title of his book?
another great read is sepoy and the raj by david omissi


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## Hphobe

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1508235674306056192


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## Maula Jatt

B.K.N said:


> Yeh arain gang PDF par bhi tha sirf ethnic groups ki DNA reports share karta tha PDF par


I HATE these dna guys with a passion , they are mad annoying - history, culture means something
but DNA not really

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## Hphobe

Sainthood 101 said:


> I HATE these dna guys with a passion , they are mad annoying - history, culture means something
> but DNA not really


1) DNA is how you reclaim Punjabi tribes and groups which deny their heritage or were forcefully assimilated into other grouos: e.g. Awans who claim Arab roots, Sudhans, Hindkos, and Swatis who claim to be Pashtuns, etc

2) It proves a direct continuity with ancient inhabitants of the land. 

3) Relying on things like culture alone leads to things like Ganga monkeys claiming to be the rightful owners of our land


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## Hphobe

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1509081852778213377


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## Maula Jatt

B.K.N said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1509624669523132426
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1509255802611453954


good catches
tent pegging, horse ridding, amatuer phelwani, kabbadi all are deeply entrenched in culture of CP especially rural ones
this nibba high af


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## Maula Jatt

B.K.N said:


> Kabadi and kushti ka ilawa Punjab ki aik aur bhi traditional sport ha Jisko dhodha lambi khed and lambi kabadi kehtay hain. kabadi sa ziada popular thi lekin ab shayad ziada log issay nahi jantay YouTube par videos hain


I added it in kabbadi as its pretty similar to kabbadi


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## KedarT

Sainthood 101 said:


> I HATE these dna guys with a passion , they are mad annoying - history, culture means something
> but DNA not really


Eventually, it's where you live over generations is what matters. Not where you come from.


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## Maula Jatt

Valiant said:


> I agree that the Potohar region has different genetics compared to Eastern Punjab but the Majha region is still home to a large number of Jatts (among others) that hold significant similarities with their cousins from Indian Punjab. Same as the Rajputs


this is the cool map Someone made of Bar region (Sutlej to chenab) and its clans 





you are from potohaar?

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## Valiant

Sainthood 101 said:


> this is the cool map Someone made of Bar region (Sutlej to chenab) and its clans
> View attachment 835034
> 
> you are from potohaar?



My Nanhyal is from Potohar (Rohtas)/Gujrat. My father's side migrated from Hoshiarpur. What about yourself?


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## Maula Jatt

Valiant said:


> My Nanhyal is from Potohar (Rohtas)/Gujrat. My father's side migrated from Hoshiarpur. What about yourself?


my mom is also from Hoshiarpur but my dad sides been living in Lahore for 100s of years


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## Valiant

Sainthood 101 said:


> my mom is also from Hoshiarpur but my dad sides been living in Lahore for 100s of years



Small world. That's great to hear. I was born in Lahore so I have great affinity for the city and Punjab in general. Jannat on earth

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

Did you conveniently forget Maharaja Ranjeet Singh


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## Maula Jatt

B.K.N said:


> Kisi na bhi punjab ki language k baray main post nahi kiya.
> Different types of Punjabi language.
> 
> Majhi dialect
> Largest dialect of Punjabi. This dialect is spoken in Lahore Gujranwala Sahiwal and in parts of Faisalabad Sargodha and Rawalpindi divisions.
> 
> Saraiki
> Second largest dialect. Saraiki is also spoken in other provinces. DI Khan district of KPK is saraiki majority.
> Saraiki
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jaangli dialect
> This dialect is intermediate between Punjabi and saraiki. It is spoken in jhang parts of khanewal Chiniot TT singh and Sargodha districts.
> jaangli
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Other dialects ka mujhay nahi pata


he goes through it




some more videos on different dialects just by searching


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## Maula Jatt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1518979214883569664The most prominent part of the army occupied by these warriors was in the infantry along with the Dailamis. They were also present in large numbers in the cavalry and in the Imperial mounted forces, the Sawar-i-Sultani, and in the special elephant corps.





These warriors formed the centre of the Ghaznavid army as early as 1008 CE against Qarakhanids in defence of Khurasan under Emperor Mahmud and were employed in many other expeditions and events. Their most prominent role was most probably against the revolt of Inaltigin.




Inaltigin the Turk revolted against Sultan Masud and when most commanders failed to take responsibility for quelling it, it was a Hindu commander named Tilak with an army of most probably the Jats who chased Inaltigin, broke his revolt, and severely punished the rebels.




Tilak was a man of humble origins from Kashmir who slowly arose from a translator to an administrator to the Sipahsalar-i-Hindwan. He would go on to becoming a high noble and joining the inner circle of the emperor. Historians of the era mention other such men.




The word ‘Hindwan’ in general meant anyone from South Asia, which in the Ghaznavid sense mainly alluded to Punjab. Though the term didn’t pertain to any religion, these soldiers most probably in the initial years were local Hindus who would go on to convert later on. 




This intermeshed military relationship between the locals and the Ghaznavids would not die soon since we learn of Khokars being at the forefront of the forces of the last Ghaznavid governor Khusrau Malik against the Ghurid forces.
As much as we in Pakistan like viewing the Ghaznavids as a clash of civilisations, it was much so like all other empires, a slow blend and seeping of two worlds into each other. I’ve been reading about this for a while, will be sharing interesting tidbits.

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## Maula Jatt

Khokhars & the demise of Sultan Shahab-ud-din-Ghori





One of the tribes that keeps reappearing in my studies of Punjab are the Khokhars. Previously, I have written posts on Jasrath Khokhar and his exploits, how the Khokhars played an essential role in Kashmir’s politics by bringing Sultan Zain-ul-Abidin to power over there. The grit of Khokhars is such that Nusrat Khokhar, a zamindar attempted to resist Timur with just 2000 of his tribesmen by Timur’s own account in Malfuzat Timury. Today, though I will explore the theory around Sultan Shahab-ud-Din Ghori’s death for whom Khokhars are held responsible.

During Sultan Ghori’s campaign in Ghazni the Khokhars and other Punjabi tribes of Koh-i-Jud hills (Salt Range, Potohar) had broken out in revolt. Then in winter “the Sultan came in to Hindustan and sent that refractory race to hell and carried on holy war as prescribed by the canons of Islam” [1] according to Tabaqat-i-Nasiri.

The issues between Khokhars and Ghurids go back to the time of Ghaznavids, when the last Sultan of that empire, Sultan Malik Khusrau allied with the tribe by encouraging them to stop paying tribute to their masters in Jammu and in case of retaliation offering them assistance. This alliance prolonged the inevitable demise of Ghaznavids and as the story goes, they were eventually swallowed by the Ghurids when Sultan Shahab unable to take Lahore by force treacherously arrested Sultan Khusrau after inviting him for negotiations and later put him to death.

After subduing the Salt Range and particularly the Khokhars, Sultan Ghori returned to Ghazni, but “in the year 602 Hijri at the halting place of Dam-yak he attained martyrdom at the hand of a disciple of Mulahidah and died” [2] The place Damyak is supposedly somewhere west of Jhelum.

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## Sulman Badshah

*Name of Region Punjab in different times through history*

- Rig Veda (1500 BC) - (Sapta Sindhva) (Land of 7 Sindhu rivers)

- Zoroastrian (1000-1500 BC) - (Hapta Hindva) (Lad of 7 Hind Rivers) (At that time Persian region replace S with H like River Sindh to River Hind, Sindhu to Hindu etc) (That Hapta is now called as HAFTA in Urdu)

- Mahabharat and Ramayan (400-800 BC) - Panch Nadi (Land of 5 rivers)

- Greeks in (327 BC)- Penta Potamia (Land of 5 Rivers)

- It is Formalize as Punjab ( 5 rivers ) in the 1400's Arguably by King Babur
-----------------------------
Land of 7 rivers is described as
- Sindh
- Jhelum
- Chenab
- Beas
- Sutlej
- Ravi
- Saraswati (presumably dried up)

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## -blitzkrieg-

Sainthood 101 said:


> The word ‘Hindwan’ in general meant anyone from South Asia,


I dont think the whole south asia..but only for region between Khyber and haryana..in other words tributaries of indus...al beruni in his literature identifies sind separate from hind...sind was an arab province all the way upto multan. And not part of hind in ghaznavid era..similarly baluchistan was mentioned as fars and makran in beruni.
Later ghori and delhi sultanate rulers acceded whatever area towards east into the "hindustan" territory. Before them regions were not accounted as hindistan.


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## Maula Jatt

There has been through the millennia a large amount of interactions between the Ancient Greek world and the Indus Basin in modern Pakistan. One of the most interesting occurred roughly 2300 years ago during the March of Alexander the Great and his Macedonian army through the Indus basin when the Macedonians came across a tribe in Punjab which they believed were the descendants of Hercules himself.



Of Alexander and the Sibian Tribe.



Alexander’s tumultuous invasion of the Indus basin, a region which today forms a the greater portion of modern Pakistan, began in 337 BCE when the Macedonian army descended with all their might on the regions east of the Hindu Kush.



Historians debate of 2 main reasons for this: first could be the fall of the Achaemenid empire which meant multiple kingdoms and tribal confederacies had risen which needed to be incorporated by Alexander’s growing empire. Others believe it was retribution for the forces that chieftains and vassals from the Indus basin had sent to join the Achaemenid armies at the battle of Gaugamela against Alexander in what is now Iraqi Kurdistan.



Either way, the Macedonians decided to invade the region which they knew as Indos. Indos came from the word Hindush which came from Sindhu, the name of the Indus River which is still alive in the name of Sindh in Pakistan. Indeed Sindhu gave its name to our eastern neighbour India too (Ind=Indus, ia= land of), but that is a story for another time.



Alexander’s campaigns against the Assapisoi and Assakenoi in around Dir or Chitral and around Swat, Raja Abisares in Hazara, and Raja Porus in Jhelum finally brought him down to Southern Punjab where he encountered a tribe known as the Sibi or Sibians. The damage to Alexander’s fleet forced him back on land, where whilst repairs were behind made, he decided to subdue some isolated tribes lest they join the Malians of Multan who would later give Alexander a bloody nose (or rather an arrow to the chest). That’s how near the confluence of the Chenab and Ravi rivers he arrived at the country of the Sibi.



Greek Historians wrote that this tribe alleged that their forefather was none other than the legendary Greek Hercules himself who were left here by him when Hercules was invading the region of Hazara in modern Pakistan (this we will discuss later). The Greek historians write that they lived in a very fine city from where the king and the nobles as well as the citizens came out to meet him. They wrote that the interactions between these supposed ‘Punjabi descendants of Hercules’ and Alexander were so cordial that they “renewed their kinship” and assured all forms of help as they were all “relatives”.



They wrote that this tribe also had Herculean characteristics as they dressed in the skins of wild beasts much like Hercules, wore hide of an animal like the hide of Nemean lion, and also carried clubs just like him. After the merrymaking, Alexander proclaimed their cities as free and marched on to the next tribe.



Now there are 2 prominent theories of the origins of these Herculean Punjabis, 1 is of Aryan origin and the other is Greek innovation.



Certain historians identify the Sibians as the Sibi or Siva aryan tribe who were amongst the earliest to enter Punjab. The Rigveda mentions them alongside the Anu, Druhyu and other tribes. The Vishnu Purana speaks of the Madra tribes of Punjab being their descendants. According to Professor A.H. Dani, The capital of the Southern Madra tribes in Punjab would be Called Mandrahukur, a city that we now popularly know as Lahore. The Sivis also find a mention in the Buddhist Jataka stories where their capital is in Gandhara, in the area of Shahbaz Garhi in Mardan which is now known to the world for containing rock edicts of Ashoka.



Now we come towards the other theory.



One of Alexander’s toughest tasks in modern Pakistan was conquering the Rock of Aornos, identified by some as the Pir Sar mountain of Hazara. Conquering it was so tough that a peculiar myth found its way in the camps Macedonian army, a myth about Hercules. The myth was such that Hercules himself had in the days of yore tried and failed to conquer it. Alexander finally prevailed by the help of some local deserters and took over the area, which led him to believe that he was emulating his divine ancestor. That is why seeing the hide skin wearing, club wielding Sibi reminded them of the myth of Hercules and Hazara.



However Hercules isn’t the only character of Greek mythology to be linked to modern Pakistan. According to a number of sources, Mount Meros where the Greek deity Dionysus was born according to certain traditions was located in what is now north western Pakistan. Alexander had also met a nation in the Khyber Pukhtunkhwa province who claimed to be the descendants of Dionysus and similarly spent time with them and drank much wine. Apollonius of Tyana who visited 300 years later found a temple of Dionysus there too.



However Hercules isn’t the only character of Greek mythology to be linked to modern Pakistan. According to a number of sources, Mount Meros where the Greek deity Dionysus was born according to certain traditions was located in what is now north western Pakistan. Alexander had also met a nation in the Khyber Pukhtunkhwa province who claimed to be the descendants of Dionysus and similarly spent time with them and drank much wine. Apollonius of Tyana who visited 300 years later found a temple of Dionysus there too.



The opening of the Indus to the Hellenic world would lead to much cultural exchange and Greek deities would later make their way into local crafts, giving rise to Gandharan art. But that is a story for another time.



References:



Alexander’s Campaigns in Southern Punjab – P.E.L. Eggermont

Report of a Tour in Punjab – A. Cunningham

The Greek experience to India – R. Stoneman

Alexander’s campaigns in Sind and Balochistan







__





The Descendants of Hercules in Punjab – Indus Tales






indus-tales.com

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## Sharma Ji

Taimur Khurram said:


> Porus


I remember a silly kiddy poem.. it went something like:

_Sikandar ki Porus, se hui ladai

Jo hui ladai

Toh mai kya karu ?

_


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## Mirzali Khan

Amritsar in 1901






@Maula Jatt @lastofthepatriots @PakFactor @Umair Nawaz @waz @ahaider97 @Talwar e Pakistan

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## lastofthepatriots

Mirzali Khan said:


> Amritsar in 1901
> 
> View attachment 866837
> 
> 
> @Maula Jatt @lastofthepatriots @PakFactor @Umair Nawaz @waz @ahaider97



No link to that city. My maternal grandmother was from Jalandar. Interestingly enough, Imran Khan’s maternal family also came from Jalandar when Pakistan was being created.

His mother’s family are burki pathans that originated from south Waziristan and their tribe settled in Jalandar. Apparently burki Pathans have their own language separate from Pashto called Ormur.

@Mirzali Khan

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## Mirzali Khan

lastofthepatriots said:


> No link to that city. My maternal grandmother was from Jalandar. Interestingly enough, Imran Khan’s maternal family also came from Jalandar when Pakistan was being created.



I thought it was cool seeing the Urdu script there.

Amritsar district was Muslim majority district. So was Jalandhar, before partition.

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## lastofthepatriots

Mirzali Khan said:


> I thought it was cool seeing the Urdu script there.
> 
> Amritsar district was Muslim majority district. So was Jalandhar, before partition.
> 
> View attachment 866839



A lot of cities that had Muslim majorities were strongholds of Arains. Arains therefore saw the most bloodshed during partition thus explaining our hatred of Sikhs. Unlike other biradiris of Punjab there are no Sikh or Hindu Arains. All were Muslim and this why they all emigrated to Pakistan. Not all Arains come from Indian side though.

@Mirzali Khan 

Your hero Pir Roshan was also a burki pathan from Jalandar.

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## Mirzali Khan

lastofthepatriots said:


> A lot of cities that had Muslim majorities were strongholds of Arains.



Jalandhar, Ferozepur, Amritsar, Gurdaspur, were Muslim majorities and even Ludhiana had a very large Muslim population. 

Even Zia was born in Jalandhar. 


lastofthepatriots said:


> Imran Khan’s maternal family also came from Jalandar when Pakistan was being created.



Imran Khan has Waziri and Doaba fusion which is why he's so phenomenal and popular with both Punjabis and Pashtuns lol 


lastofthepatriots said:


> Your hero Pir Roshan was also a burki pathan from Jalandar.



He was also the founder of the Pashto alphabet.

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## PakFactor

Mirzali Khan said:


> Amritsar in 1901
> 
> View attachment 866837
> 
> 
> @Maula Jatt @lastofthepatriots @PakFactor @Umair Nawaz @waz @ahaider97 @Talwar e Pakistan



There was a poet (or elder) who once said in his book that their are five people you can’t trust no matter what and Amritsaris are one of them. I have been trying to recall the name or book last several years but it never came to my mind. During ‘48 and ‘65 they showed their face Sheikh Abdullah and his Peace Bridge — one man’s ill decisions can make the whole nation suffer for generations to come.

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## PakFactor

lastofthepatriots said:


> A lot of cities that had Muslim majorities were strongholds of Arains. Arains therefore saw the most bloodshed during partition thus explaining our hatred of Sikhs. Unlike other biradiris of Punjab there are no Sikh or Hindu Arains. All were Muslim and this why they all emigrated to Pakistan. Not all Arains come from Indian side though.
> 
> @Mirzali Khan
> 
> Your hero Pir Roshan was also a burki pathan from Jalandar.



After Arain’s revolted in 1857 we were barred from serving in the British Armed Forces — them white kanjars labeled us traitors on our own land (Lol), which I don’t care about my family still have pieces of weapons of some white British and British Indians my family killed as trophies. After this event the Brits basically relocated Arain’s to various parts and gave us land to develop and build communities, mostly in Punjab. At least we fought unlike others who continued to serve and were proud of useless British medals in WWI & WWII to be cannon fodders. (Note: this doesn’t take away from dirty eggs that are born in Arain households like Sajid Javed in UK etc).

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## Maula Jatt

PakFactor said:


> After Arain’s revolted in 1857 we were barred from serving in the British Armed Forces — them white kanjars labeled us traitors on our own land (Lol), which I don’t care about my family still have pieces of weapons of some white British and British Indians my family killed as trophies. After this even the Brits basically relocated Arain’s to various parts and gave us land to develop and build communities.


Based Arain, Afridis used to make up a good part of British army till they revolted and refused to fight the ottomans cause they were Muslims 

Afterwards they weren't considered martial enough lol

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## lastofthepatriots

Maula Jatt said:


> Based Arain, Afridis used to make up a good part of British army till they revolted and refused to fight the ottomans cause they were Muslims
> 
> Afterwards they weren't considered martial enough lol



Only British are martial.

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## PakFactor

lastofthepatriots said:


> No link to that city. My maternal grandmother was from Jalandar. Interestingly enough, Imran Khan’s maternal family also came from Jalandar when Pakistan was being created.
> 
> His mother’s family are burki pathans that originated from south Waziristan and their tribe settled in Jalandar. Apparently burki Pathans have their own language separate from Pashto called Ormur.
> 
> @Mirzali Khan



Did you guys hail from Mianwal, Jalandhar?


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## lastofthepatriots

PakFactor said:


> After Arain’s revolted in 1857 we were barred from serving in the British Armed Forces — them white kanjars labeled us traitors on our own land (Lol), which I don’t care about my family still have pieces of weapons of some white British and British Indians my family killed as trophies. After this event the Brits basically relocated Arain’s to various parts and gave us land to develop and build communities, mostly in Punjab. At least we fought unlike others who continued to serve and were proud of useless British medals in WWI & WWII to be cannon fodders. (Note: this doesn’t take away from dirty eggs that are born in Arain households like Sajid Javed in UK etc).



My Nani’s cousin has an old french rifle that an english soldier traded him. Still works although it’s very very loud. Crows fly from miles away when we fire that thing.



PakFactor said:


> Did you guys hail from Mianwal, Jalandhar?



Only my nani family, and I have no clue.

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## Maula Jatt

lastofthepatriots said:


> A lot of cities that had Muslim majorities were strongholds of Arains. Arains therefore saw the most bloodshed during partition thus explaining our hatred of Sikhs. Unlike other biradiris of Punjab there are no Sikh or Hindu Arains. All were Muslim and this why they all emigrated to Pakistan. Not all Arains come from Indian side though.
> 
> @Mirzali Khan
> 
> Your hero Pir Roshan was also a burki pathan from Jalandar.


Thier are many theories for why all arains are Muslims, it'll be interesting to explore the rabbit hole tbh , it always personally fascinated me

Genetically y'all cluster with the rest of us but are among the few clans with no non Muslim member, hell forget clans it's sometimes even hard to find sub clans with no non Muslims








B.K.N said:


> I think after partition in 47 Hindus should have stayed in west Punjab and Muslim in east. Yeh population transfer ka plan pata nahin kis ka tha ? 100 percent Muslim area bananay k liye unka religion change kar detay


There was no "plan" it was killings that resulted in pop transfer

With no killings immu K might have been an Indian

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## Maula Jatt

ahaider97 said:


> Only noticeable thing that come up when I try to look for khokhar history. I used to think we were rajputs then I saw some land ownership documents and my father name had qaum jatt after it. So we jatt now.


I am kokhar too and we always considered ourselves Jutts, I don't know where this Rajput BS came from though


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## lastofthepatriots

B.K.N said:


> Saini mali arain etc are same people yeh Hindu Sikh Muslim sab kuch hotay hain



Yeah whatever you say. You must be saini.


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## Maula Jatt

ahaider97 said:


> Maybe from here lol. But it might be that jatt is an ethnic group while rajput is a social class.
> View attachment 866859


Yeah probably sociol class thing
Jutt as in a race, people, tribal group and Rajput as a social status 

People around me just say Jutt though


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## lastofthepatriots

B.K.N said:


> Rajput means son of raja and jat means small farmer or someone who works in fields or looks after cattle. These are just social classes. In sa neechay phir artisan classes hain. Ancestry in sab logon ki same ha
> 
> Main saini nahin hon



Arain are not saini or mali or whatever the **** you are writing. We may have some link to Kambohs though.


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## Maula Jatt

lastofthepatriots said:


> Arain are not saini or mali or whatever the **** you are writing. We may have some link to Kambohs though.


Have you ever researched about the origins of Arain?, Like what's the reason why they have no non Muslims


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## lastofthepatriots

Saini









Arain 

@B.K.N

Chakhai puddi dya, eh te nasaal hi koi hor’aa


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## lastofthepatriots

Maula Jatt said:


> Have you ever researched about the origins of Arain?, Like what's the reason why they have no non Muslims



I don’t care that much. All I know is that we have sub clans too. Like my sub clan is ramay which mean archer. So somebody in our sub clan was an archer or something.


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## SLY

Here is my Theory

In Ancient times Punjab was known as the Madra Kingdom in west the Capital was Sagala which is modern day Sialkot this is why the Greeks wanted to capture because it was the Epic center of Punjab the Kingdom of Madra was founded by Madra who was the son Shibi and Aswapati was the grandson of King Shibi Aswapati's wife was from a minor tribe known as Malava. She was known as Malavi there was a region known as Malava / western Malla by Indo-Aryans they were a people from southern Punjab including today's Multan city (Mallorum Metropolis) and region, south of the confluence of the Jhelum ,Hydaspes for the Greeks, and Ravi,Hydraotes for the Greeks, rivers they are mentioned by ancient Greek historians in the Mallian Campaign of Alexander III of Macedon (Iskandar); Malada

You might have heard some Punjabis call them Malwa jatts definitely have link to this region



King Shibi was son of Ushinara is believed to be from the Anu race which is also known as Annunaki and no they were not Gods or descendants of Race of Gods that's what the google searches will tell you
Or the hindu texts but I do believe some text of the stories but not the god parts because we know there is only One creator of everything he doesn't have any children's or partners as we believe that there was hundred and twenty four thousand prophets were sent to all nations but people use to change the texts or use to take some prophets as gods just like we see it in the modern day

Ushinara since he is believed to be from the Anu Race which we know existed in the Ancient Sumer

Also known as Sumerian which was located in Mesopotamia modern day Iraq some the hindu text also date back to the same time as the sumerian and ancient Babylon times I do believe some Punjabis are descendants of Ancient sumerians linked by Ushinara




Sumerian farmers grew an abundance of grain and other crops, the surplus from which enabled them to form urban settlements. And we know Jatts like farming

The Sumerians referred to their land as _Kengir_, the 'Country of the noble lords' (𒆠𒂗𒄀, _k-en-gi(-r)_, lit. 'country' + 'lords' + 'noble') as seen in their inscriptions.

A recent (2013) genetic analysis of four ancient Mesopotamian skeletal DNA samples suggests an association of the Sumerians with Indus Valley Civilization, possibly as a result of ancient Indus-Mesopotamia

since we know Indus civilization, also called Indus valley civilization or Harappan civilization, *earliest known urban culture of the south asian subcontinent just like Sumerians are known as the earliest civilization in Mesopotamia so without a doubt I believe they had connection with each other*

As we all know from the Quran all Human race started from the Adam from one person as this

This connection between the Punjabis and Sumerians is very old in my opinion not all Punjabis though since this sub continent is big and was connected so they got mixed up with other tribes also


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## Maula Jatt

B.K.N said:


> Because British came to Pakistan after ruling India for a very long time so they started classifying native Punjabi tribes with Indian terms like jat and rajput. Just because they are converted Hindus they are jat. Some British officer wrote this about jat
> 
> “The Rajput, Sayad and Baloch tribes excluded, the cultivating and proprietary body
> consists almost entirely of a vast number of agricultural tribes, each known by a different
> name, but comprehended within the one universal term Jat. Ethnologically I am not sure
> of my ground; but if these tribes are not Jat, who are they? They are all converted
> Hindus. Of this there is no doubt, and all are engaged in agriculture or cattle-grazing.
> Some of them are recognized as Jat; and appearance, customs and traditions they do not
> differ from their unrecognized brethren. For statistical purposes it would be surely a
> much more useful and convenient arrangement to class these agriculturists as Jat, though
> they are not true Jats, whatever they may be, but only ploughmen and cattle-graziers.”


British bimbos can't even begin to comprehend our region

So who cares?


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## lastofthepatriots

Arain come from western Pakistan, Iran, or Central Asia as that is where onions are believed to originate from.

https://www.onions-usa.org/all-about-onions/history-of-onions/

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## Maula Jatt

lastofthepatriots said:


> Arain come from western Pakistan, Iran, or Central Asia as that is where onions are believed to originate from.


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## lastofthepatriots

Maula Jatt said:


> View attachment 866868



It’s probably true which makes it funny.

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## Maula Jatt

lastofthepatriots said:


> It’s probably true which makes it funny.


But genetically y'all are just like other big clans but unlike them you have no non Muslim, that's why your origins are confusing


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## lastofthepatriots

Maula Jatt said:


> But genetically y'all are just like other big clans but unlike them you have no non Muslim, that's why your origins are confusing



We are all human(except Lahoris). And it’s not like any group of people were Muslim from the beginning. The Arabs of Medina were pretty much Hindus too before Islam came. They worshipped hundreds of idols and buried their newborn daughters just like Hindus did.

All people are related and come from the same origin. I just discuss biradiris for shugal, I don’t actually give a shit.

But my onion theory does make sense.

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## lastofthepatriots

ahaider97 said:


> Why is it surprising, they either Arabs/Central Asians or mass converted.



Who cares? We are all Pukkaystanis now. Arain claim origin from Arabs but even if it was true, what would I have in common with them? Religion?

I speak punjabi and my best friends are saraikis, jatts, gujjars and other Pakistanis. I don’t even like Arabs(gulfies).


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## lastofthepatriots

ahaider97 said:


> Disappointed. I thought you were a saraiki. /s
> 
> Yeah, as I said. Most people don't even mention it in their names. History is interesting for some, that's all it is.



I’m not. Pure Punjabi. But after living with Riyastis and Saraikis we have a little bit of the touch. Like once in a while we throw saraiki words in our Punjabi. Most of my cousins are fluent.

This is probably why we like Ataullah Khan songs as well.

Also my cousins are married to Saraiki girls, so now it’s becoming a mix. The generation before would have never even considered marrying with other Punjabis.. Arains are particularly strict about this. But times are changing.


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## lastofthepatriots

ahaider97 said:


> Saraiki and Punjabi will ultimately lose their originality due to Urdu and English influence.



Not in the villages. But I have noticed my cousin’s Saraiki wife insists on her kids speaking in Urdu.

Urdu is alright but it doesn’t feel natural to me. Doesn’t roll off the tongue like Punjabi does. Every time I speak Urdu, I really have to make an effort.

Panchod zabaan taak jandi’aa.

Lahoris also like to speak in Urdu. Lahoris also have a really gay and funny Punjabi accent and it comes out when they speak Urdu. Whenever a Lahori dude says aa yaaar, I bust out laughing. It just sounds so gay.

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## SLY

lastofthepatriots said:


> We are all human(except Lahoris). And it’s not like any group of people were Muslim from the beginning. The Arabs of Medina were pretty much Hindus too before Islam came. They worshipped hundreds of idols and buried their newborn daughters just like Hindus did.
> 
> All people are related and come from the same origin. I just discuss biradiris for shugal, I don’t actually give a shit.
> 
> But my onion theory does make sense.



Group of people were Muslim from the beginning because Adam was Muslim so during his time and he had lot of children they were all muslim

For you to say "it's not like any group if people were muslim from beginning " is wrong 

People lost their way later and start building statues of the dead and deceased in remembrance which eventually turned into worship


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## waz

Mirzali Khan said:


> Amritsar in 1901
> 
> View attachment 866837
> 
> 
> @Maula Jatt @lastofthepatriots @PakFactor @Umair Nawaz @waz @ahaider97 @Talwar e Pakistan



Interesting and yes it was a Muslim majority region. Punjab should have been greater but it was a Sikh holy city. 
I feel for our Punjabi kin they lost out so much and made so much sacrifice. 
My people had to fight a war on independence!

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## SaadH

The word punjabi didn't even exist when Porus was around. It's a massive leap to connect Porus to an ethnic that arose millenia later.

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## Azadkashmir

stick with old fashion farming except mechanise it, you be gud and be strong like your ancestors. if you eat outside say goodbye to your health.


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## Mirzali Khan

Bridge on the Sutlej River (1860s)








@PakFactor @Maula Jatt @lastofthepatriots @Muhammad Saftain Anjum

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## Maula Jatt

SaadH said:


> The word punjabi didn't even exist when Porus was around. It's a massive leap to connect Porus to an ethnic that arose millenia later.


STFU and go back to your hole 


Sulman Badshah said:


> *Name of Region Punjab in different times through history*
> 
> - Rig Veda (1500 BC) - (*Sapta Sindhva) (Land of 7 Sindhu rivers*)
> 
> - Zoroastrian (1000-1500 BC) - (Hapta Hindva) (Lad of 7 Hind Rivers) (At that time Persian region replace S with H like River Sindh to River Hind, Sindhu to Hindu etc) (That Hapta is now called as HAFTA in Urdu)
> 
> -* Mahabharat and Ramayan (400-800 BC) - Panch Nadi (Land of 5 rivers*)
> 
> - *Greeks in (327 BC)- Penta Potamia (Land of 5 Rivers)*
> 
> - It is *Formalize as Punjab ( 5 rivers* ) in the 1400's Arguably by King Babur
> -----------------------------
> Land of 7 rivers is described as
> - Sindh
> - Jhelum
> - Chenab
> - Beas
> - Sutlej
> - Ravi
> - Saraswati (presumably dried up)


Not to mention historical DNA samples of ghandharan age compared to modern DNA samples are also pretty much ditto intact

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## PakFactor

lastofthepatriots said:


> Not in the villages. But I have noticed my cousin’s Saraiki wife insists on her kids speaking in Urdu.
> 
> Urdu is alright but it doesn’t feel natural to me. Doesn’t roll off the tongue like Punjabi does. Every time I speak Urdu, I really have to make an effort.
> 
> Panchod zabaan taak jandi’aa.
> 
> Lahoris also like to speak in Urdu. Lahoris also have a really gay and funny Punjabi accent and it comes out when they speak Urdu. Whenever a Lahori dude says aa yaaar, I bust out laughing. It just sounds so gay.



Urdu to me is very feminine the way is sounds no matter who the hell speaks it male, female of Bilawal. I personally never speak that shit at home. Should've made Punjabi the leading language at-least it would have made Sindh's No. 1 hero Bilawal sound like a man.

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## -blitzkrieg-

SaadH said:


> The word punjabi didn't even exist when Porus was around. It's a massive leap to connect Porus to an ethnic that arose millenia later.


Punjabi is not an ethnicity. Jatt arain rajput are.
Ethnicity of porus will stay a mystery neverthless he was son of jehlum.

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## Talwar e Pakistan

Sulman Badshah said:


> - Rig Veda (1500 BC) - (Sapta Sindhva) (Land of 7 Sindhu rivers)





Sulman Badshah said:


> - Zoroastrian (1000-1500 BC) - (Hapta Hindva) (Lad of 7 Hind Rivers) (At that time Persian region replace S with H like River Sindh to River Hind, Sindhu to Hindu etc) (That Hapta is now called as HAFTA in Urdu)


Sapta Sindhava does not translate to "Land of 7 Sindhu rivers" nor does Hapta Hendu translate to "Land of 7 Hind rivers". 

"Sindhu" means ocean (in this context 'river'), Sindhava is the plural of Sindhu. 'Sapta' is seven. So it literally means "Seven rivers".

Neither term was used to denote Punjab, but instead the region between the Helmand (Sarasvati/Haraxvaiti) and Beas rivers, a region which roughly corresponds to East Afghanistan, Pakistan and North-West India.



Sulman Badshah said:


> - Mahabharat and Ramayan (400-800 BC) - Panch Nadi (Land of 5 rivers)


The actual term was Panchanada. 'Panch Nadi' is the Hindi translation of that term. Also note that this was an exonym, locals did not use this term, native terms such as Madra (North Punjab) and Trigarta (East Punjab) only referred to specific regions that did not entail the entirety of Punjab.

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## hydrabadi_arab

-blitzkrieg- said:


> Punjabi is not an ethnicity. Jatt arain rajput are.
> Ethnicity of porus will stay a mystery neverthless he was son of jehlum.



Punjabi Rajput, jatt, gujjar arain, awan etc or agricultural tribes of punjab are one ethnicity. They act more like tribes and are pretty much similar to each other genetically. Punjabi is ethnicity and historically Punjab had same name in different languages. Only bradari punjabis are real indigenous punjabis that have existed since the time of Gandhara. Porus was from Mandi Bahauddin, not Jhelum district. He was ethnically proto-punjabi, its not a mystery. All main indigenous bradaris names/label/title came about in last 1000 years but their ancestors have lived in punjab since time of Gandhara civilization.

Anyway this is poor thread, there are users on twitter doing much better job with sources on history of punjabi muslims after Islam and pre Islamic history of punjab. Like these guys


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1553807442772779009

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1551752136521809920

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1533939691367587840
and many more

This thread is more of wikipedia like then anything serious.

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## -blitzkrieg-

hydrabadi_arab said:


> Punjabi Rajput, jatt, gujjar arain, awan etc or agricultural tribes of punjab are one ethnicity. They act more like tribes and are pretty much similar to each other genetically. Punjabi is ethnicity and historically Punjab had same name in different languages. Only bradari punjabis are real indigenous punjabis that have existed since the time of Gandhara. Porus was from Mandi Bahauddin, not Jhelum district. He was ethnically proto-punjabi, its not a mystery. All main indigenous bradaris names/label/title came about in last 1000 years but their ancestors have lived in punjab since time of Gandhara civilization.
> 
> Anyway this is poor thread, there are users on twitter doing much better job with sources on history of punjabi muslims after Islam and pre Islamic history of punjab. Like these guys
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1553807442772779009
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1551752136521809920
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1533939691367587840
> and many more
> 
> This thread is more of wikipedia like then anything serious.



There is a term used WAG. Wide-As$ Guess. When you say something about porus's DNA.its a WAG.. what was proto Punjabi? What was its composition. Noone can define today and who he was closer to jatt arain or khokhar.. we dont know...
Furthermore mandi bahaudin is not even accurate its a place near jalalpur sharif where the battle happened. But since it comes in district jehlum amd also name of the river (hydapses) I used it instead as mandi bahaudin didn't exist back then. There is no evidence porus hailed from the mandi bahaudin today.

Lastly the genetic diversity mitochondrial DNA is smaller in say pashtun tribes than between arain and jutt..or rajput and awan or mughal and gujjar..6 distinct dna schemes seen in Punjab. Punjab is more of a geographic and cultural identity . The distinct nature of the groups is obviously due to much stricter rules of Inter marriages practiced over centuries and distinct outside influences over time. That's also why the punjabi ethnicities are distinguishable by GED and other sites.


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## hydrabadi_arab

-blitzkrieg- said:


> There is a term used WAG. Wide-As$ Guess. When you say something about porus's DNA.its a WAG.. what was proto Punjabi? What was its composition. Noone can define today and who he was closer to jatt arain or khokhar.. we dont know...
> Furthermore mandi bahaudin is not even accurate its a place near jalalpur sharif where the battle happened. But since it comes in district jehlum amd also name of the river (hydapses) I used it instead as mandi bahaudin didn't exist back then. There is no evidence porus hailed from the mandi bahaudin today.
> 
> Lastly the genetic diversity mitochondrial DNA is smaller in say pashtun tribes than between arain and jutt..or rajput and awan or mughal and gujjar..6 distinct dna schemes seen in Punjab. Punjab is more of a geographic and cultural identity . The distinct nature of the groups is obviously due to much stricter rules of Inter marriages practiced over centuries and distinct outside influences over time. That's also why the punjabi ethnicities are distinguishable by GED and other sites.
> View attachment 867157
> View attachment 867158



1. Porus ruled area between Jhelum and Chenab, look at map where that is. Jhelum district was ruled by Ambi of Taxila.
2. Genetically the distance between north pashtuns and southern ones from Loy kandahar is biggest, they are not even same people if we just look at DNA. Meanwhile punjabi agricultural tribes are like 95% similar.

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## Talwar e Pakistan

hydrabadi_arab said:


> Punjabi Rajput, jatt, gujjar arain, awan etc or agricultural tribes of punjab are one ethnicity. They act more like tribes and are pretty much similar to each other genetically. Punjabi is ethnicity and historically Punjab had same name in different languages. Only bradari punjabis are real indigenous punjabis that have existed since the time of Gandhara. Porus was from Mandi Bahauddin, not Jhelum district. He was ethnically proto-punjabi, its not a mystery. All main indigenous bradaris names/label/title came about in last 1000 years but their ancestors have lived in punjab since time of Gandhara civilization.
> 
> Anyway this is poor thread, there are users on twitter doing much better job with sources on history of punjabi muslims after Islam and pre Islamic history of punjab. Like these guys
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1553807442772779009
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1551752136521809920
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1533939691367587840
> and many more
> 
> This thread is more of wikipedia like then anything serious.


I know many of them, their group is filled with closet racists and their articles are muddled with misinformation and historical revisionism.

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## lastofthepatriots

-blitzkrieg- said:


> There is a term used WAG. Wide-As$ Guess. When you say something about porus's DNA.its a WAG.. what was proto Punjabi? What was its composition. Noone can define today and who he was closer to jatt arain or khokhar.. we dont know...
> Furthermore mandi bahaudin is not even accurate its a place near jalalpur sharif where the battle happened. But since it comes in district jehlum amd also name of the river (hydapses) I used it instead as mandi bahaudin didn't exist back then. There is no evidence porus hailed from the mandi bahaudin today.
> 
> Lastly the genetic diversity mitochondrial DNA is smaller in say pashtun tribes than between arain and jutt..or rajput and awan or mughal and gujjar..6 distinct dna schemes seen in Punjab. Punjab is more of a geographic and cultural identity . The distinct nature of the groups is obviously due to much stricter rules of Inter marriages practiced over centuries and distinct outside influences over time. That's also why the punjabi ethnicities are distinguishable by GED and other sites.
> View attachment 867157
> View attachment 867158



So Arains are baluch mixed with South Indian with a splash of caucus people.

That makes sense. Maybe it’s because of my South Indian side that I hate North Indians so much and love beef.

@DESERT FIGHTER @Imran Khan

Welcome me into the family, nibbas!

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## Imran Khan

lastofthepatriots said:


> So Arains are baluch mixed with South Indian with a splash of caucus people.
> 
> That makes sense. Maybe it’s because of my South Indian side that I hate North Indians so much and love beef.


still there is mystery of onions and arain love .

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## lastofthepatriots

Imran Khan said:


> still there is mystery of onions and arain love .



While the rest of you were dying from Covid, Arain were eating onions and only getting stronger.

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## Imran Khan

lastofthepatriots said:


> While the rest of you were dying from Covid, Arain were eating onions and only getting stronger.


we better die with covid then eating onions like arain


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## lastofthepatriots

Imran Khan said:


> we better die with covid then eating onions like arain



Sahi’aa maar jao fe..

Man I love Baluch people, but knowing I may be distantly related to Zardari makes me want drink a bottle of dettol.

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## Mirzali Khan

Maula Jatt said:


> @Mirzali Khan
> "There's an interracial couple on tik tok, and the girl is hispanic and both the guy and girl call the language the guy speaks as "pothwari"
> 
> 
> 
> So I don't think Pakistan is trying to create new identities if people are saying stuff themselves."
> 
> Saw it on Reddit explains the dangerous situation


----------



## lastofthepatriots

Mirzali Khan said:


> View attachment 867963
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 867964
> View attachment 867965
> View attachment 867966



This girl look like an aunty and she’s not even old yet.

Lanat on this potohari or whatever he is. We Punjabis aren’t claiming him.

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## Mirzali Khan

lastofthepatriots said:


> This girl look like an aunty and she’s not even old yet.
> 
> Lanat on this potohari or whatever he is. We Punjabis aren’t claiming him.



She’s made tik toks complaining on how they’ve been dating for 8/9 years and she hasn’t gotten a ring yet

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## lastofthepatriots

Mirzali Khan said:


> She’s made tik toks complaining on how they’ve been dating for 8/9 years and she hasn’t gotten a ring yet



She must be paying his bills or something...


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## -blitzkrieg-

Mirzali Khan said:


> She’s made tik toks complaining on how they’ve been dating for 8/9 years and she hasn’t gotten a ring yet


Maybe he is inspired by Andrew tate.


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## lastofthepatriots

-blitzkrieg- said:


> Maybe he is inspired by Andrew tate.



I think his khala/mother will intercept his aspirations and claim complete dream superiority. The boy will go to Pakistan to marry his cousin and have 12 children like all proper Pakistanis should.

His gf will of course be jilted and be like **** muslim men(especially Pakistani men) and warn all females she encounters to stay away out of bitterness.

The End.

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## -blitzkrieg-

Maula Jatt said:


> @Mirzali Khan
> "There's an interracial couple on tik tok, and the girl is hispanic and both the guy and girl call the language the guy speaks as "pothwari"
> 
> 
> 
> So I don't think Pakistan is trying to create new identities if people are saying stuff themselves."
> 
> Saw it on Reddit explains the dangerous situation


Punjabi language and cultul identity is very strong.. all of them are dialects of punjabi however one (majhi) is assumed standard because of more exposure when there is no standard dialect.. this has made people judge other dialects as separate lingos.

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## lastofthepatriots

-blitzkrieg- said:


> Punjabi language and cultural is very strong.. all of them are dialects of punjabi however one (majhi) is assumed standard because of more exposure when there is no standard dialect.. this has made people judge other dialects as separate lingos.



Original and pure Punjabi is from Jhang. That’s why I laugh at all these Sikhs and then even more at Lahoris that try to copy them and their rap songs.

These niggaz can’t understand two lines of poetry from heer ranjha, but go around beating their chests about their punjabiyaat and putt jattan de. Tanga tanga tanga tang. lololololol

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## Maula Jatt

lastofthepatriots said:


> Original and pure Punjabi is from Jhang. That’s why I laugh at all these Sikhs and then even more at Lahoris that try to copy them and their rap songs.
> 
> These niggaz can’t understand two lines of poetry from heer ranjha, but go around beating their chests about their punjabiyaat and putt jattan de. Tanga tanga tanga tang. lololololol


But people wrongfully assume Lahori majhi as punjabi ( eventhough best/pure majhi is from @Great Janjua district)- eventhough it's a umbrella term with 10-15 dialects

This "family" of dialects is called Punjabi

This is leading to issues where centeries old Punjabi dialects are "seceding"

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## Maula Jatt

Mirzali Khan said:


> She’s made tik toks complaining on how they’ve been dating for 8/9 years and she hasn’t gotten a ring yet


Lol pakistanis rarely marry out, he is fooling the aunty for citizenship papers





It took him 5 years to get her parents approval to get married as he was white, Muslim white but still white and not pakistani

than how TF is this guy going to marry her lol 🤣🤣 
@Mirzali Khan @lastofthepatriots

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## lastofthepatriots

Maula Jatt said:


> But people wrongfully assume Lahori majhi as punjabi ( eventhough best/pure majhi is from @Great Janjua district)- eventhough it's a umbrella term with 10-15 dialects
> 
> This "family" of dialects is called Punjabi
> 
> This is leading to issues where centeries old Punjabi dialects are "succeeding"



It’s not just the language.

Pakistani punjabi and Indian Sikh Punjabi culture is different.

Pakistani Punjabis have always been alpha males with rop. Khalaf suits, with sorma in eyes and always ready to thrown down and never simping for women and love.






It even shows in our old film songs. The man never simps for the woman. It’s a completely different attitude and state of mind.

On the other hand, Indian Sikhs and by extension modern day Lahoris think serenading girls and following them around like puppy dogs with those weak azz love songs is punjabi culture. Or showing off bottles of whiskey and drugs.






Check out this song by this sikh. This mofo is actually singing the lines from the perspective of the bitch. LMAO


There is a clear difference in the culture and mindset between Pakistani Punjabis and Indian Punjabis/Lahoris.

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## Maula Jatt

lastofthepatriots said:


> It’s not just the language.
> 
> Pakistani punjabi and Indian Sikh Punjabi culture is different.
> 
> Pakistani Punjabis have always been alpha males with rop. Khalaf suits, with sorma in eyes and always ready to thrown down and never simping for women and love.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It even shows in our old film songs. The man never simps for the woman. It’s a completely different attitude and state of mind.
> 
> On the other hand, Indian Sikhs and by extension modern day Lahoris think serenading girls and following them around like puppy dogs with those weak azz love songs is punjabi culture. Or showing off bottles of whiskey and drugs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Check out this song by this sikh. This mofo is actually singing the lines from the perspective of the bitch. LMAO
> 
> 
> There is a clear difference in the culture and mindset between Pakistani Punjabis and *Indian Punjabis/Lahoris.*








My feelings after reading this from beginning to the end





Thanks but no thanks



lastofthepatriots said:


> It even shows in our old film songs. The man never simps for the woman. It’s a completely different attitude and state of mind.


Literally every sultan Rahi song...

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## lastofthepatriots

Maula Jatt said:


> View attachment 867972
> 
> My feelings after reading this from beginning to the end
> 
> View attachment 867973
> 
> Thanks but no thanks
> 
> 
> Literally every sultan Rahi song...



Modern Lahoris*

Lahoris used to not ape indian Punjabis like just a decade ago.


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## Maula Jatt

lastofthepatriots said:


> Modern Lahoris*
> 
> Lahoris used to not ape indian Punjabis like just a decade ago.


Not a popular opinion but they're our blood too with same ancestors eventhough they hate Muslims and all but still


----------



## lastofthepatriots

Maula Jatt said:


> Not a popular opinion but they're our blood too with same ancestors eventhough they hate Muslims and all but still



Your*


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## hydrabadi_arab

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> I know many of them, their group is filled with closet racists and their articles are muddled with misinformation and historical revisionism.


 Like for exemple? Which misinformed article you came across?


----------



## Maula Jatt

hydrabadi_arab said:


> Like for exemple? Which misinformed article you came across?


off-topic - what's the reasoning for that username dude ?....



ahaider97 said:


> Are khokhar and jatt different? This is confusing stuff. @Maula Jatt


sub-clan of a bigger jutt clan mate- that's how people around me identified

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## Mirzali Khan

lastofthepatriots said:


> Original and pure Punjabi is from Jhang. That’s why I laugh at all these Sikhs and then even more at Lahoris that try to copy them and their rap songs.
> 
> These niggaz can’t understand two lines of poetry from heer ranjha, but go around beating their chests about their punjabiyaat and putt jattan de. Tanga tanga tanga tang. lololololol



On Sikh social media there is a constant bragging of being “Jatt”. There are several girls who I’ve seen say shit like “If he’s not Jatt I don’t want him” or just straight up say “Jatts are superior” 

Example:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1536414107771015168

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1553157483610472448

I have never ever seen a Pakistani Punjabi girl ever tweet about being Jatt let alone talk about Punjabi biradris that way. They either just say they are from Punjab or say the city they are from. Why is the Jatt brand not as big in Pakistan despite majority of Jatts live in Pakistan?



hydrabadi_arab said:


> Like for exemple? Which misinformed article you came across?



Bro Sarang “Punjabi Waseb” himself wrote an Article claiming PTI is a secret ethno nationalist party 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂



Maula Jatt said:


> Lol pakistanis rarely marry out, he is fooling the aunty for citizenship papers



I think based on his accent he’s born here it’s just that idk ahh Pakistani guy that goes for 9 year relationships without putting a ring on it 😂😂😂. 

It’s obvious what he’s using her for 😭


----------



## Mirzali Khan

lastofthepatriots said:


> Pakistani punjabi and Indian Sikh Punjabi culture is different.



Do Pakistani Punjabis do this: 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1555312177229217792
And true certain memes are only enjoyed by one side. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1555290806721855489


----------



## Maula Jatt

Mirzali Khan said:


> On Sikh social media there is a constant bragging of being “Jatt”. There are several girls who I’ve seen say shit like “If he’s not Jatt I don’t want him” or just straight up say “Jatts are superior”
> 
> Example:
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1536414107771015168
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1553157483610472448
> 
> I have never ever seen a Pakistani Punjabi girl ever tweet about being Jatt let alone talk about Punjabi biradris that way. They either just say they are from Punjab or say the city they are from. Why is the Jatt brand not as big in Pakistan despite majority of Jatts live in Pakistan?


cause the greatest Punjabi movie (my username is named after that movie) was about a good jutt man taking down an evil criminal- all the jutt genre movies (it exists in Pakjab, it definitely exists, I can show songs, movies about it but not as big as on the other side) were played by an arain actor - and we love him, sultan raahi is love




this inspired the Gujjars and the next generation's mainstream actor Shaan shahid did all the Gujjar movies,

the greatest Punjabi singer after NFAK is an ethnic Pashtun, the majority of central Punjab urban centers a couple of decades ago were majority Kashmiri, and the biggest feudal/landholder of Punjab for the longest time was a Baloch Sardar ( former Punjab assembly deputy speaker- PTI lotas grandfather )

in short everyone thinks they are better than the other, and won't take anyone's superiority complex laying down and we are much more diverse in every societal class urban, rural, upper, lower, industrial or land holding (like every clan or Baloch, Pashtun, Kashmiri Punjabi is represented)

this means that anyone saying he is better than the other would get their a** handed to em (besides I rarely see anyone expressing a "superiority complex" over the other except for Rajput's, its more of a rich, poor divide)


Mirzali Khan said:


> Bro Sarang “Punjabi Waseb” himself wrote an Article claiming PTI is a secret ethno nationalist party 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂


I read their articles lol, although our views on PTI are like the polar opposite- but whatever


----------



## lastofthepatriots

Mirzali Khan said:


> Do Pakistani Punjabis do this:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1555312177229217792
> And true certain memes are only enjoyed by one side.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1555290806721855489



Almost every wedding I’ve been to in Pakistan have men and women separate, so no.



Maula Jatt said:


> cause the greatest Punjabi movie (my username is named after that movie) was about a good jutt man taking down an evil criminal- all the jutt genre movies were played by an arain actor - and we love him, sultan raahi is love
> 
> 
> 
> 
> this inspired the Gujjars and the next generation's mainstream actor Shaan shahid did all the Gujjar movies,
> 
> the greatest Punjabi singer after NFAK is an ethnic Pashtun, the majority of central Punjab urban centers a couple of decades ago were majority Kashmiri, and the biggest feudal/landholder of Punjab for the longest time was a Baloch Sardar ( former Punjab assembly deputy speaker- PTI lotas grandfather )
> 
> in short everyone thinks they are better than the other, and won't take anyone's superiority complex laying down and we are much more diverse in every societal class urban, rural, upper, lower, industrial or land holding (like every clan or Baloch, Pashtun, Kashmiri Punjabi is represented)
> 
> this means that anyone saying he is better than the other would get their a** handed to em (besides I rarely see anyone expressing a "superiority complex" over the other except for Rajput's, its more of a rich, poor divide)
> 
> I read their articles lol, although our views on PTI are like the polar opposite- but whatever



Good jatt man. LOL

Maula jatt was a violent asshole. Read the novel.


----------



## Maula Jatt

lastofthepatriots said:


> Almost every wedding I’ve been to in Pakistan have men and women separate, so no.


unless you are upper middle class or middle class in a big city


https://www.youtube.com/c/RWorldOfficial/videos



not going to post the video cause you'll shit on lahoris again 


lastofthepatriots said:


> Almost every wedding I’ve been to in Pakistan have men and women separate, so no.
> 
> 
> 
> Good jatt man. LOL
> 
> *Maula jatt was a violent asshole. *Read the novel.


he was a good character who was saving a women's honor from Nuri Nath aka the bad guy
you can see the movie....


----------



## Hellfire2006

lastofthepatriots said:


> Almost every wedding I’ve been to in Pakistan have men and women separate, so no.


What ? Here On the other side we hit on girls coming from the bride’s procession  if you get lucky , you’ll get urself a girlfriend


lastofthepatriots said:


> Good jatt man. LOL
> 
> Maula jatt was a violent asshole. Read the novel.


The movie was good. It’ s one of the best punjabi movies I’ve ever seen.


----------



## lastofthepatriots

Maula Jatt said:


> unless you are upper middle class or middle class in a big city
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/c/RWorldOfficial/videos
> 
> 
> 
> not going to post the video cause you'll shit on lahoris again
> 
> he was a good character who was saving a women's honor from Nuri Nath aka the bad guy
> you can see the movie....



The novel was way more interesting than the movie in my opinion.



Hellfire2006 said:


> What ? Here On the other side we hit on girls coming from the bride’s procession  if you get lucky , you’ll get urself a girlfriend
> 
> The movie was good. It’ s one of the best punjabi movies I’ve ever seen.



We are culturally different than Indian punjabis. From our way of life, to eating habits to social life.

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## hydrabadi_arab

Mirzali Khan said:


> Bro Sarang “Punjabi Waseb” himself wrote an Article claiming PTI is a secret ethno nationalist party 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂



Thats no secret.

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## Mirzali Khan

hydrabadi_arab said:


> Thats no secret.



What 😂😂😂


----------



## Mirzali Khan

hydrabadi_arab said:


> They are against any party that undermine punjabi identity so they are not fan of N league either. Though N league is better then PTI as former isn't as much in favour of dividing punjab along dialect/accent lines.



PTI was also in favor of merging FATA with KPK so that means PTM is better as they are against it 🤪🤪🤪


----------



## Mirzali Khan

hydrabadi_arab said:


> Sure meanwhile experience of hindkos/punjabis in KP tells us something else. You can name duck a chicken but duck will remain a duck. Instead of sucking up to these racist pashtuns or now afghan muhajirs, own up your identity which this Hindko professor from Peshawar is doing.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1463176624384446475



Punjabi targeted killings in Balochistan was done by BLA. BLA also kills Pashtun laborers as well.



hydrabadi_arab said:


> Pashtuns of PTI are two faced. We all saw their real face few months ago. KP pashtuns want to make punjabi speaking regions like Hazara and DI Khan in to afghan majority with refugees. Its ethnocide going on and its job of punjabi nationalists to speak for them because so called punjabi establishment/army doesnt even care and actively work against punjab as long as DHAs are allowed tax free.
> 
> So called hindkos or punjabis before 1947 have faced brunt of pashtun racism in KP. Changing it to artificial fake identity hindko didnt work.



Saraiki identity was pushed by Sindhis and Baloch. Pashtuns don't have any matter in its creation of an identity.

Hindko is already an identity and its formation is under the noses of PMLN Butts and they didn't care.

Afghans are less than 1% of Pakistan anyway, so they won't "overtake" your population.

Also why is your name "hyderabadi_arab"?



hydrabadi_arab said:


> So called hindkos or punjabis before 1947 have faced brunt of pashtun racism in KP. Changing it to artificial fake identity hindko didnt work.



There's tik tokers who call themselves "Hindko Pashtun"

I also love you didn't touch on my FATA merger thing and FATA re-establishment is being considered under PMLN LOL

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## -blitzkrieg-

hydrabadi_arab said:


> Pashtuns of PTI are two faced. We all saw their real face few months ago. KP pashtuns want to make punjabi speaking regions like Hazara and DI Khan in to afghan majority with refugees. Its ethnocide going on and its job of punjabi nationalists to speak for them because so called punjabi establishment/army doesnt even care and actively work against punjab as long as DHAs are allowed tax free.
> 
> So called hindkos or punjabis before 1947 have faced brunt of pashtun racism in KP. Changing it to artificial fake identity hindko didnt work.


What's stopping u to go live in peshawar or quetta.



Mirzali Khan said:


> PTI was also in favor of merging FATA with KPK so that means PTM is better as they are against it 🤪🤪🤪


If FATA isn't part of KPK then there is no logic in calling the province KHYBER* PAKHTUNKHWA*

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## Mirzali Khan

-blitzkrieg- said:


> If FATA isn't part of KPK then there is no logic in calling the province KHYBER* PAKHTUNKHWA*



We should have more provinces just in general the idea of FATA was colonial. Same with the name of NWFP. 

Even northern Balochistan isn’t even “Balochistan” it’s Pashtun majority.

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## -blitzkrieg-

hydrabadi_arab said:


> Punjabis have been driven out of Quetta for the must part despite living there for 100 years since British laid the foundation of Quetta city. Unless racism and target killing of punjabis in other 3 provinces stop, punjabis in punjab will start to organise in similar manner in near future against outsiders.




I have never heard of punjabis being driven out from quetta.. personally know punjabis people who live there today.
And here you just speak for yourself. 
@Mirzali Khan may put more light.

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## hydrabadi_arab

-blitzkrieg- said:


> I have never heard of punjabis being driven out from quetta.. personally know punjabis people who live there today.
> And here you just speak for yourself.
> @Mirzali Khan may put more light.



You never heard because its not talked about for obvious reasons, because they were punjabis. But google is your friend. Obviously some punjabis still live in Quetta but majority left decade ago.


----------



## -blitzkrieg-

hydrabadi_arab said:


> You never heard because its not talked about for obvious reasons, because they were punjabis. But google is your friend. Obviously some punjabis still live in Quetta but majority left decade ago.


Lej tried to move out hazara as well they stood their ground..The post bugti killing was a sensitive time.. thats phasing out now and pepple have started settling again. This needs more coverage and acknowledgement

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## The Eagle

hydrabadi_arab said:


> You never heard because its not talked about for obvious reasons, because they were punjabis. But google is your friend. Obviously some punjabis still live in Quetta but majority left decade ago.



When your ban ends, make sure that you are not indulging in ethnic hatred anymore. It should be the last warning for you.

Regards,

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## Great Janjua

The Hindu Shahis Dynasty ruled over Kabul, Gandhara and Western Punjab from 822 CE TO 1026CE were eventually overthrown by Mahmood Ghaznavi who later established the Ghaznavid empire and plundered the famous Somnath Temple in ancient Gujarat India.

Map from a hasty effort that I put together.

@Maula Jatt @Goenitz @lastofthepatriots @Maarkhoor

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## Goenitz

Great Janjua said:


> The Hindu Shahis Dynasty ruled over Kabul, Gandhara and Western Punjab from 822 CE TO 1026CE were eventually overthrown by Mahmood Ghaznavi who later established the Ghaznavid empire and plundered the famous Somnath Temple in ancient Gujarat India.
> 
> Map from a hasty effort that I put together.
> 
> @Maula Jatt @Goenitz @lastofthepatriots @Maarkhoor
> 
> View attachment 869008


AFG has been cradle of war and misery.. All strategies, weapons, have been tested here. 
Anyway, Abdalis, Gauris, etc all marched to indus and gangis plains (Punjab, UP, MP, Bihar, Bengal). I think Ghaznavi also reached Somnat via Punjab.. and not from Sindh/Tharparkar side...

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## Maula Jatt

Controversy alert! 💀

Thaughts on this guy...




Khizar Hayat Tiwana -Last PM of pre partition Punjab 

I think his heart was in the right place and understandable if you were in his position but looking back it was a very wrong and dangerous take, as anyone with a functioning brain can see

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## Maula Jatt

1901 census of Muslims of punjab

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## Great Janjua

Maula Jatt said:


> 1901 census of Muslims of punjab
> View attachment 869553
> 
> View attachment 869554


Makes sense what I find weird is every tribe apart from Gujjars are like spread all over the country whilst Gujjars are mostly in Northern Punjab and some are spread in the Mountains of KPK and AJK.



ahaider97 said:


> Are khokhar and jatt different? This is confusing stuff. @Maula Jatt


Khokhars are of Rajput lineage so yeah they are different but some Khokhars claim to be Jatts which is bs. Just like some masalis claim the title of Bhattis.

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## lastofthepatriots

Great Janjua said:


> Makes sense what I find weird is every tribe apart from Gujjars are like spread all over the country whilst Gujjars are mostly in Northern Punjab and some are spread in the Mountains of KPK and AJK.
> 
> 
> Khokhars are of Rajput lineage so yeah they are different but some Khokhars claim to be Jatts which is bs. Just like some masalis claim the title of Bhattis.



There are Rajputs and then there are Rajpoots.


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## Great Janjua

lastofthepatriots said:


> There are Rajputs and then there are Rajpoots.


Is there?


----------



## lastofthepatriots

Great Janjua said:


> Is there?



Aho jeray phoot mar de rende’aa..

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## Great Janjua

lastofthepatriots said:


> Aho jeray phoot mar de rende’aa..


Touché


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## Maula Jatt

Great Janjua said:


> Makes sense what I find weird is every tribe apart from Gujjars are like spread all over the country whilst Gujjars are mostly in Northern Punjab and some are spread in the Mountains of KPK and AJK.
> 
> 
> Khokhars are of *Rajput* lineage so yeah they are different but some Khokhars claim to be Jatts which is bs. Just like some masalis claim the title of Bhattis.


Dude all my people called ourselves Jutts, it's very recently I heard this BS

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## Great Janjua

Maula Jatt said:


> Dude all my people called ourselves Jutts, it's very recently I heard this BS


Are you a Khokhar?


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## Maula Jatt

Great Janjua said:


> Are you a Khokhar?


Yes besides I think jutts are a people group, you can technically be both 

Maybe some identify with one, other's with something else

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## Great Janjua

Maula Jatt said:


> Yes besides I think jutts are a people group, you can technically be both
> 
> Maybe some identify with one, other's with something else


You can say that but mostly Khokhars are of a quasi-Rajput lineage its confusing especially in this age where in some areas maslis are branded as Bhattis 🤦🏻‍♂️.

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## Great Janjua

*Gujjar Population of Punjab 1901 Census. 




*

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## Pakistani E

-blitzkrieg- said:


> I have never heard of punjabis being driven out from quetta.. personally know punjabis people who live there today.
> And here you just speak for yourself.
> @Mirzali Khan may put more light.



Not sure what they're on about, there are still plenty of Punjabis living in Balochistan, maybe a few left. Take this guy for example:






Ahmed Mujtaba, UFC fighter born in Quetta. His parents are Awans from Talagang, Chakwal who are settled in Balochistan.


----------



## Mirzali Khan

Maula Jatt said:


> Controversy alert! 💀
> 
> Thaughts on this guy...
> View attachment 869065
> 
> Khizar Hayat Tiwana -Last PM of pre partition Punjab
> 
> I think his heart was in the right place and understandable if you were in his position but looking back it was a very wrong and dangerous take, as anyone with a functioning brain can see



I don't think there's anything wrong with what he said. Culturally Punjabi muslims, hindus, and sikhs are similar just the lifestyle and customs become radically different when there is religious difference. 

Also what he fails to consider that if partition didn't occur Punjabi muslims standing in Punjab would be the lowest as Sikhs had the most wealth at the time. 

Even the champion Noor Butt had great relations with the other Indian punjabi weight lifter but that doesn't mean their lifestyles are the same.



Pakistani E said:


> Not sure what they're on about, there are still plenty of Punjabis living in Balochistan, maybe a few left. Take this guy for example:
> 
> View attachment 874193
> 
> 
> Ahmed Mujtaba, UFC fighter born in Quetta. His parents are Awans from Talagang, Chakwal who are settled in Balochistan.



He's talking about post-Bugti targeted killings of Punjabi workers and laborers in 2006 by BLA.


----------



## lastofthepatriots

Mirzali Khan said:


> I don't think there's anything wrong with what he said. Culturally Punjabi muslims, hindus, and sikhs are similar just the lifestyle and customs become radically different when there is religious difference.
> 
> Also what he fails to consider that if partition didn't occur Punjabi muslims standing in Punjab would be the lowest as Sikhs had the most wealth at the time.
> 
> Even the champion Noor Butt had great relations with the other Indian punjabi weight lifter but that doesn't mean their lifestyles are the same.
> 
> 
> 
> He's talking about post-Bugti targeted killings of Punjabi workers and laborers in 2006 by BLA.



Punjabi culture is all based off of Sufism and Punjabi Muslim history. Anti-Muslim Sikhs are goofballs especially when their holy book reveres Baba Farid Shakarganj as one of their Gurus.

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## SecularNationalist

Taimur Khurram said:


> Many of us certainly are. My father is from Sarai Alamgir (used to be a part of Jhelum district until the late 90's, but it's still within Jhelum's cantonment limits) and he told me about Porus with great pride about his achievements.
> 
> Us Pakistanis certainly need to appreciate our history, especially our pre-Islamic one, much more than we currently do. Other than Pashtuns, Baluchis and those who claim ancestry from Islamic nobility, the rest of us really don't care as much as we should about our past prior to Pakistan's independence. This has allowed our eastern neighbour to claim it as their own, to the point where they even named themselves after OUR river.


And i am a proud native of Jhelum districit. 
Its a very tough place now and then a true hell for invaders. People are tough as rock but very hospitable to their guests. After all there as a reason why even today in forces most soldiers and officers are from jhelum and chakwal. Unfortunately neutrals at the top gave bad name to the true sons of the soil. 
Its a shame today a monument of the invader alexander is erected there instead of a true son of the soil Raja Porus. Someone who gave the mighty greek army a resistance they never faced elsewhere. Today we are not owning our great ancestors just because of the fear of mullahs. Both me and my late father argued on this topic and at the end we both agreed that a statue of Raja Porus should be in our districit.


----------



## lastofthepatriots

SecularNationalist said:


> And i am a proud native of Jhelum districit.
> Its a very tough place now and then a true hell for invaders. People are tough as rock but very hospitable to their guests. After all there as a reason why even today in forces most soldiers and officers are from jhelum and chakwal. Unfortunately neutrals at the top gave bad name to the true sons of the soil.
> Its a shame today a monument of the invader alexander is erected there instead of a true son of the soil Raja Porus. Someone who gave the mighty greek army a resistance they never faced elsewhere. Today we are not owning our great ancestors just because of the fear of mullahs. Both me and my late father argued on this topic and at the end we both agreed that a statue of Raja Porus should be in our districit.



You guys put up a good fight but it was a Multani that shot Alexander up with that arrow.. 



B.K.N said:


> I don't understand why would any one care about a fight that was fought thousands years ago?



Because the thread name is literally history of Punjabis.
Tu ye das bhai tu kis ilakay ka he?

Intehai ajeeb banda wa. A lot of your posts are weird and a lot of them sound made up too.


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## SecularNationalist

lastofthepatriots said:


> You guys put up a good fight but it was a Multani that shot Alexander up with that arrow..


No alexander ate too much sohan halwa and eventually died from diabetes.

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## lastofthepatriots

B.K.N said:


> From this ilaka
> View attachment 874293



You’re Saraiki?


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## Great Janjua

Ute ve Gujjran but we aren't all nomads also involved in agriculture and very short tempered. Some main sub castes Khatanas, Awanas, Gorsi, Toppas, Kasana, Thikriye, and Chechi. 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1565875625138819073

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## lastofthepatriots

Great Janjua said:


> Ute ve Gujjran but we aren't all nomads also involved in agriculture and very short tempered. Some main sub castes Khatanas, Awanas, Gorsi, Toppas, Kasana, Thikriye, and Chechi.
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1565875625138819073



The rivers of milk in jannat will inshallah be filled by gujjar biradiri. Ameen

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## Great Janjua

lastofthepatriots said:


> The rivers of milk in jannat will inshallah be filled by gujjar biradiri. Ameen


Tenu asi muttar piyale de 🤣🤣 oh vi gah da

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## lastofthepatriots

Great Janjua said:


> Tenu asi muttar piyale de 🤣🤣 oh vi gah da



Tu India chal pai. Tere vargay otay set rende ne..

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## Great Janjua

lastofthepatriots said:


> Tu India chal pai. Tere vargay otay set rende ne..


Fair enough 😆


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## Maula Jatt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1565875681375952896
Shan Shahid and Sheikh Rashid are also the biggest Hindu haters lol 😂



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1565875698065080326I present you Destroyers of Punjab and Pakistan in general- minus Iqbal and gama phelwan

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## Great Janjua

Maula Jatt said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1565875681375952896
> Shan Shahid and Sheikh Rashid are also the biggest Hindu haters lol 😂
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1565875698065080326I present you Destroyers of Punjab and Pakistan in general


Exactly 🤣🤣 Sheeda tali


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## Maula Jatt

True Punjabi pathan and Baloch are missing

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1566013462404386816

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## Great Janjua

All the Aroras and Khatris in india are native from western Punjab and Sindh but they migrated to India in 1947 now udher ja ke aisay baate karte hai jese Pakistan innke property hai like the pandits of kashmir 🤣🤣

However, in Pakistan, the Khatri name is used as a derogatory term and now most of the Muslim Khatris who are true sons of the soil have dropped the name. 😞


----------



## ahaider97

B.K.N said:


> They are not talking about the people residing in Punjab but the people whom they consider Punjabi. This is political or nationalist type thread not informational


lol, you weren't in the list?


----------



## Great Janjua

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1566348179955761152

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1570149231868116992

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## Rana4pak

Rai Ahmed Khan kharal and dulla Bhatti are great Punjabi Rajput warrior along with many others!

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## MastanKhan

Taimur Khurram said:


> We've got one for Pashtuns, so I am making one for Punjabis.
> 
> I will start off with some historical Punjabi figures:
> 
> Porus
> 
> View attachment 475320
> 
> 
> A Punjabi king who fought bravely against Alexander of Macedon. Defeating him was one of Alexander's most difficult conquests, and out of respect for Porus he employed him as a satrapy over the area. The difficulty of the battle also seems to have caused the Macedonian soldiersoldier's reluctancy to fight any further, to the point where they almost started a mutiny. This resulted in Alexander being forced to end his campaign of expansion.
> 
> https://www.britannica.com/biography/Porus
> 
> Kautilya
> 
> A famous philosopher from Taxila who tutored Chandragupta Maurya, and held a key position in the Mauryan Empire. He is often compared to Aristotle and Plato.
> 
> https://www.britannica.com/biography/Kautilya
> 
> Sarang Khan
> 
> He was a powerful ruler of Nothern Punjab who fought alongside Babur during his conquests of Hindustan. He obtained the title of Sultan for his efforts. When Sher Shah Suri usurped Babur's son Humayun, Sarang fought against him bravely, and Sher Shah Suri was never able to subdue his people even after skinning Sarang himself.
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sultan_Sarang_Khan
> 
> Wazir Khan
> 
> View attachment 475328
> 
> 
> A Punjabi who acted as Shah Jahan's physician. He was also a Mughal noble and chief Qazi of Lahore for quite some time during Mughal rule. He founded Wazirabad and Wazir Khan Masjid is named after him.
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wazir_Khan_(Lahore)
> 
> Shahbaz Khan
> 
> A Punjabi who fought as a general under Akbar. He participated in some of the most difficult battles during Akbar's reign, and annexed large amounts of Hindustan. He was also a highly religious Muslim, keeping a long beard and regularly praying.
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shahbaz_Khan_Kamboh
> 
> Abdullah Bhatti
> 
> He rebelled against Mughal emeperor Akbar, and is often compared to Robin Hood due to his social banditry. Many folklore tales speak highly of his deeds. When he was hung, his last words that were uttered were "No honourable son of Punjab will ever sell the soil of Punjab".
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dulla_Bhatti
> 
> Fateh Muhammad
> 
> Worked as a commander in Aurangzeb's army. He was also the father of Hyder Ali, who was the father of Tipu Sultan.
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fath_Muhammad
> 
> Mukarrab Khan
> 
> View attachment 475326
> 
> 
> A powerful chieftain of nothern Punjab who fought alongside Nader Shah during his conquests of the Mughal Empire. He was awarded the title of Nawab for his efforts and was allowed to retain control of his kingdom. He then expanded it to include much of nothern Pakistan before being defeated by the Sikh Empire. Even then, his people continued to rebel against the Sikhs.
> 
> http://firdosh101.blogspot.co.uk/2009/05/history-of-gakhars.html?m=1
> 
> Allama Iqbal
> 
> View attachment 475321
> 
> 
> An Urdu/Farsi poet as well as a philosopher who is also considered the spiritual father of Pakistan.
> 
> http://historypak.com/allama-muhammad-iqbal-1877-1938/
> 
> Rehmat Ali
> 
> View attachment 475322
> 
> 
> One of Pakistan's founding fathers. He came up with the name of Pakistan and was the author of the Pakistan declaration.
> 
> http://historypak.com/choudhry-rahmat-ali-1895-1951/
> 
> Faiz Ahmed Faiz
> 
> View attachment 475323
> 
> 
> One of Urdu's most celebrated poets. He won numerous awards for his poetry, such as the Lenin Peace Prize and Nishan-e-Imtiaz. He was also nominated for a Nobel Prize in Literature.
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faiz_Ahmad_Faiz
> 
> Shabbir Sharif
> 
> View attachment 475325
> 
> 
> The most decorated soldier to ever serve the Pakistani army. During 1971, he and his men destroyed several Hindustani tanks and kept two Hindustani battalions at bay by killing over 40 of their troops and capturing almost 30 of them as POW's. He also defeated a Hindustani company commander who challenged him to hand-to-hand combat. He won both Nishan-e-Haider and Sitara-e-Jurat for his efforts.
> 
> http://www.pakarmymuseum.com/exhibits/second-lieutenant-shabbir-sharif/
> 
> Tikka Khan
> 
> View attachment 475324
> 
> 
> Fought against Erwin Rommel in WW2 as part of Britain's Africa campaign. He also served in the Pakistani army, participating in the Battle of Chawinda (2nd largest tank battle in history) and lead the army to great victories in the Rann of Kutch. He eventually became a general, and crushed Bengali and Baluchi insurgencies with a heavy hand. He's also my PDF profile picture.
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tikka_Khan


Hi,

Raja Porus was the first known great leader from Punjab---. His defeat against Alexander is a figment of imagination of the Greek historians and others as well.

Second great leader from Pujab was Maharja Ranjit Singh----ruler of Punjab and 'frontier'---.

Other than those two---no muslim warrior of that ruling category and class was born to punjab at at all.

Indeed there were lower category heroes in punjab---.

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## lastofthepatriots

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Raja Porus was the first known great leader from Punjab---. His defeat against Alexander is a figment of imagination of the Greek historians and others as well.
> 
> Second great leader from Pujab was Maharja Ranjit Singh----ruler of Punjab and 'frontier'---.
> 
> Other than those two---no muslim warrior of that ruling category and class was born to punjab at at all.
> 
> Indeed there were lower category heroes in punjab---.



Ranjit Singh may be a hero to central and northern Punjabis but in South Punjab he was considered a pariah and is referred to as the ‘kanna‘ or one eyed bastard.


----------



## lastofthepatriots

B.K.N said:


> Baat shumal janoob ki nahin ha mazhab ki ha



Shumal Islamic Hub tha Punjab ka.


----------



## Talwar e Pakistan

lastofthepatriots said:


> Ranjit Singh may be a hero to central and northern Punjabis but in South Punjab he was considered a pariah and is referred to as the ‘kanna‘ or one eyed bastard.


No one considers him a hero in Northern or Central Punjab either, it's just only recently that some "Twitter Punjabis" have begun worshipping him.


----------



## Talwar e Pakistan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Raja Porus was the first known great leader from Punjab---. His defeat against Alexander is a figment of imagination of the Greek historians and others as well.
> 
> Second great leader from Pujab was Maharja Ranjit Singh----ruler of Punjab and 'frontier'---.
> 
> Other than those two---no muslim warrior of that ruling category and class was born to punjab at at all.
> 
> Indeed there were lower category heroes in punjab---.


That is simply not true, this misconception is an example of Pakistan's failure to own and promote indigenous history and heritage. 

Jasrath Khokhar, Sultan Shah Langah, Muzaffar Shah, and many others are all prime example of renowned Muslim Punjabi rulers.


----------



## M. Sarmad

Great Janjua said:


> Ute ve Gujjran but we aren't all nomads also involved in agriculture and very short tempered. Some main sub castes Khatanas, Awanas, Gorsi, Toppas, Kasana, Thikriye, and Chechi.
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1565875625138819073



Gujjars of Punjab are agriculturist.

Gujjars made up 3% of the population of Punjab as per 1901 census. 73% of them were Muslims 27% Hindus and 0.003% were Sikhs (Muslim Gujjars and Sikhs of Punjab have been enemies historically).

Gujjars are the third largest ethnic group in Indian Occupied J&K and the largest ethnic group in Azad Kashmir. Kashmiri Gujjars are predominantly nomadic. So are Gujjars/Bakarwals of Hazara division in KP.

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## beinghistoric

Taimur Khurram said:


> We've got one for Pashtuns, so I am making one for Punjabis.
> 
> I will start off with some historical Punjabi figures:
> 
> Porus
> 
> View attachment 475320
> 
> 
> A Punjabi king who fought bravely against Alexander of Macedon. Defeating him was one of Alexander's most difficult conquests, and out of respect for Porus he employed him as a satrapy over the area. The difficulty of the battle also seems to have caused the Macedonian soldiersoldier's reluctancy to fight any further, to the point where they almost started a mutiny. This resulted in Alexander being forced to end his campaign of expansion.
> 
> https://www.britannica.com/biography/Porus
> 
> Kautilya
> 
> A famous philosopher from Taxila who tutored Chandragupta Maurya, and held a key position in the Mauryan Empire. He is often compared to Aristotle and Plato.
> 
> https://www.britannica.com/biography/Kautilya
> 
> Sarang Khan
> 
> He was a powerful ruler of Nothern Punjab who fought alongside Babur during his conquests of Hindustan. He obtained the title of Sultan for his efforts. When Sher Shah Suri usurped Babur's son Humayun, Sarang fought against him bravely, and Sher Shah Suri was never able to subdue his people even after skinning Sarang himself.
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sultan_Sarang_Khan
> 
> Wazir Khan
> 
> View attachment 475328
> 
> 
> A Punjabi who acted as Shah Jahan's physician. He was also a Mughal noble and chief Qazi of Lahore for quite some time during Mughal rule. He founded Wazirabad and Wazir Khan Masjid is named after him.
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wazir_Khan_(Lahore)
> 
> Shahbaz Khan
> 
> A Punjabi who fought as a general under Akbar. He participated in some of the most difficult battles during Akbar's reign, and annexed large amounts of Hindustan. He was also a highly religious Muslim, keeping a long beard and regularly praying.
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shahbaz_Khan_Kamboh
> 
> Abdullah Bhatti
> 
> He rebelled against Mughal emeperor Akbar, and is often compared to Robin Hood due to his social banditry. Many folklore tales speak highly of his deeds. When he was hung, his last words that were uttered were "No honourable son of Punjab will ever sell the soil of Punjab".
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dulla_Bhatti
> 
> Fateh Muhammad
> 
> Worked as a commander in Aurangzeb's army. He was also the father of Hyder Ali, who was the father of Tipu Sultan.
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fath_Muhammad
> 
> Mukarrab Khan
> 
> View attachment 475326
> 
> 
> A powerful chieftain of nothern Punjab who fought alongside Nader Shah during his conquests of the Mughal Empire. He was awarded the title of Nawab for his efforts and was allowed to retain control of his kingdom. He then expanded it to include much of nothern Pakistan before being defeated by the Sikh Empire. Even then, his people continued to rebel against the Sikhs.
> 
> http://firdosh101.blogspot.co.uk/2009/05/history-of-gakhars.html?m=1
> 
> Allama Iqbal
> 
> View attachment 475321
> 
> 
> An Urdu/Farsi poet as well as a philosopher who is also considered the spiritual father of Pakistan.
> 
> http://historypak.com/allama-muhammad-iqbal-1877-1938/
> 
> Rehmat Ali
> 
> View attachment 475322
> 
> 
> One of Pakistan's founding fathers. He came up with the name of Pakistan and was the author of the Pakistan declaration.
> 
> http://historypak.com/choudhry-rahmat-ali-1895-1951/
> 
> Faiz Ahmed Faiz
> 
> View attachment 475323
> 
> 
> One of Urdu's most celebrated poets. He won numerous awards for his poetry, such as the Lenin Peace Prize and Nishan-e-Imtiaz. He was also nominated for a Nobel Prize in Literature.
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faiz_Ahmad_Faiz
> 
> Shabbir Sharif
> 
> View attachment 475325
> 
> 
> The most decorated soldier to ever serve the Pakistani army. During 1971, he and his men destroyed several Hindustani tanks and kept two Hindustani battalions at bay by killing over 40 of their troops and capturing almost 30 of them as POW's. He also defeated a Hindustani company commander who challenged him to hand-to-hand combat. He won both Nishan-e-Haider and Sitara-e-Jurat for his efforts.
> 
> http://www.pakarmymuseum.com/exhibits/second-lieutenant-shabbir-sharif/
> 
> Tikka Khan
> 
> View attachment 475324
> 
> 
> Fought against Erwin Rommel in WW2 as part of Britain's Africa campaign. He also served in the Pakistani army, participating in the Battle of Chawinda (2nd largest tank battle in history) and lead the army to great victories in the Rann of Kutch. He eventually became a general, and crushed Bengali and Baluchi insurgencies with a heavy hand. He's also my PDF profile picture.
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tikka_Khan


Very informative and it gives great help to all of us about Punjabis and they all play vital role against Britain and in the independence of Pakistan


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## Great Janjua

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1538359281040359424
Gujrat the abode of Gujjars.

@Maula Jatt @lastofthepatriots

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## Maula Jatt

Punjabi Musalmans : www.DiscoverSikhism.com : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive


Visit our library at http://www.discoversikhism.com/sikh_library/english.html



archive.org




@lastofthepatriots @Great Janjua @Mentee

alright I am not a fan of old white British dude writing books on our people and they are not right (some of the things in the book are weird af and wrong) but still a decent read documenting the different clans of all the different regions, their history , superstitions, conversion

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## Maula Jatt

didn't know this but 4th dynasty of the Delhi sultanate (Sayyed dynasty) were possibly kokhars of Multan who adopted a Sayyed title like many people back in the day, his father was a clan chieftain but son became a Syed?

@M. Sarmad ?

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## Maula Jatt

@M. Sarmad @Great Janjua 
accurate?

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## Great Janjua

Maula Jatt said:


> @M. Sarmad @Great Janjua
> accurate?
> View attachment 905149


Bro based 💪🏻

The district Ganganagar and Hanumannagar were all held by Bhatti Rajput Muhammadans old name was Bhatiana.


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