# Recent CPEC JCC meeting; Pakistani objectives appear to be unmet



## Pak Nationalist

In the recent JCC meeting, it appears that the Pakistani side could not get anything it set out to get while the Chinese side has gotten everything it wanted. Tariffs for the Chinese IPPs would not be renegotiated, meaning that PML-N ad-hocism would continue costing the country for the foreseeable future. ML-1 project could also not get off the rail where Pakistani view was again not accepted. Most importantly, the CPEC 2.0, where we were supposed to see widespread industrial collaboration, has remained a pipedream. This collaboration was supposed to increase our production capacity and create exportable surpluses, helping us finance the debt component of the CPEC. No progress on this front was made in this JCC either. It is unclear who is to be blamed for the go-slow policy on this front. Instead, we are talking about the construction of Dir, DIK-Peshawar Motorways which would either be constructed by incurring debt or on a BOT basis necessitating hefty tolls once these become operational. Motorways are not utilized in Pakistan for inter/intra-country trade due to the heavy tolls involved. Is this infrastructure going to improve the productive capacity of our economy? PML-N styled spending priorities that the incumbents used to frown upon rightfully have been embraced by them, unfortunately. Dasu dam attack has angered the Chinese to the extent that the construction on this strategic project which is vital to our water/food security and bringing down power tariffs in the long term, has been completely halted. One does not blame the Chinese there because the weakness of our leaders has virtually allowed India to assume the role of Israel and converted Pakistan into an Iran where Israel could take unilateral actions at will. It has increasingly become easy for India to thwart Pakistan's progress, whether Dasu attack, cyber attacks directed at our critical civilian infrastructure (FBR), or the disinformation operation aimed at Newzealand cricket team's visit (economic and image dividends cricket coming back to Pakistan would have had).









Pakistan, China agree not to alter tariff on power deals


Beijing seeks security of workers, arrest and prosecution of Dasu attackers as JCC of CPEC meets after two years.



www.dawn.com

Reactions: Like Like:
5 | Love Love:
1 | Sad Sad:
1


----------



## ziaulislam

Pak Nationalist said:


> In the recent JCC meeting, it appears that the Pakistani side could not get anything it set out to get while the Chinese side has gotten everything it wanted. Tariffs for the Chinese IPPs would not be renegotiated, meaning that PML-N ad-hocism would continue costing the country for the foreseeable future. ML-1 project could also not get off the rail where Pakistani view was again not accepted. Most importantly, the CPEC 2.0, where we were supposed to see widespread industrial collaboration, has remained a pipedream. This collaboration was supposed to increase our production capacity and create exportable surpluses, helping us finance the debt component of the CPEC. No progress on this front was made in this JCC either. It is unclear who is to be blamed for the go-slow policy on this front. Instead, we are talking about the construction of Dir, DIK-Peshawar Motorways which would either be constructed by incurring debt or on a BOT basis necessitating hefty tolls once these become operational. Motorways are not utilized in Pakistan for inter/intra-country trade due to the heavy tolls involved. Is this infrastructure going to improve the productive capacity of our economy? PML-N styled spending priorities that the incumbents used to frown upon rightfully have been embraced by them, unfortunately. Dasu dam attack has angered the Chinese to the extent that the construction on this strategic project which is vital to our water/food security and bringing down power tariffs in the long term, has been completely halted. One does not blame the Chinese there because the weakness of our own leaders has virtually allowed India to assume the role of Israel and converted Pakistan into an Iran where Israel could take unilateral actions at will. It has increasingly become easy for India to thwart Pakistan's progress, whether Dasu attack, cyber attacks directed at our critical civilian infrastructure (FBR), or the disinformation operation aimed at Newzealand cricket teams visit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan, China agree not to alter tariff on power deals
> 
> 
> Beijing seeks security of workers, arrest and prosecution of Dasu attackers as JCC of CPEC meets after two years.
> 
> 
> 
> www.dawn.com


Pakistan should then scrap ML1 and go through route of AB/WB plus self financing it

I am sure west will jump on it just to annoy china

Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## Darth Vader

Railways pushed Europe and Japan
While it was road which connected US
Biggest thing is not every household in Pakistan owns a car.

Pakistan need to setup infrastructure which can help people and its industries.

Pakistan needs a fast reliable and cheaper railway network system which connects whole country really quickly that can transport goods at really cheaper price.

This will allow smooth transfer of goods to whole country also fixing food shortages and prices, allowing new industry to be setup in port cities which can process these goods and can export these out.

Huge motorway systems wont do much unless you buils your economy and your local middle class

Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## ziaulislam

Power projects was always gping to be difficult to renegoiate

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Pak Nationalist

ziaulislam said:


> Pakistan should then scrap ML1 and go through route of AB/WB plus self financing it
> 
> I am sure west will jump on it just to annoy china


That is an interesting preposition.


----------



## khansaheeb

Pak Nationalist said:


> In the recent JCC meeting, it appears that the Pakistani side could not get anything it set out to get while the Chinese side has gotten everything it wanted. Tariffs for the Chinese IPPs would not be renegotiated, meaning that PML-N ad-hocism would continue costing the country for the foreseeable future. ML-1 project could also not get off the rail where Pakistani view was again not accepted. Most importantly, the CPEC 2.0, where we were supposed to see widespread industrial collaboration, has remained a pipedream. This collaboration was supposed to increase our production capacity and create exportable surpluses, helping us finance the debt component of the CPEC. No progress on this front was made in this JCC either. It is unclear who is to be blamed for the go-slow policy on this front. Instead, we are talking about the construction of Dir, DIK-Peshawar Motorways which would either be constructed by incurring debt or on a BOT basis necessitating hefty tolls once these become operational. Motorways are not utilized in Pakistan for inter/intra-country trade due to the heavy tolls involved. Is this infrastructure going to improve the productive capacity of our economy? PML-N styled spending priorities that the incumbents used to frown upon rightfully have been embraced by them, unfortunately. Dasu dam attack has angered the Chinese to the extent that the construction on this strategic project which is vital to our water/food security and bringing down power tariffs in the long term, has been completely halted. One does not blame the Chinese there because the weakness of our own leaders has virtually allowed India to assume the role of Israel and converted Pakistan into an Iran where Israel could take unilateral actions at will. It has increasingly become easy for India to thwart Pakistan's progress, whether Dasu attack, cyber attacks directed at our critical civilian infrastructure (FBR), or the disinformation operation aimed at Newzealand cricket teams visit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan, China agree not to alter tariff on power deals
> 
> 
> Beijing seeks security of workers, arrest and prosecution of Dasu attackers as JCC of CPEC meets after two years.
> 
> 
> 
> www.dawn.com


Stop being so negative, Pakistan is not a super rich nation and these projects take time. CPEC has made remarkable progress and evil eyes are watching it , stop scheming criticisms to undermine the project.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Desprado

ziaulislam said:


> Pakistan should then scrap ML1 and go through route of AB/WB plus self financing it
> 
> I am sure west will jump on it just to annoy china


Requires approval of IMF and you want Pakistan to end IMF program. Joke is on you.

Reactions: Sad Sad:
1


----------



## Pak Nationalist

Darth Vader said:


> Railways pushed Europe and Japan
> While it was road which connected US
> Biggest thing is not every household in Pakistan owns a car.
> 
> Pakistan need to setup infrastructure which can help people and its industries.
> 
> Pakistan needs a fast reliable and cheaper railway network system which connects whole country really quickly that can transport goods at really cheaper price.
> 
> This will allow smooth transfer of goods to whole country also fixing food shortages and prices, allowing new industry to be setup in port cities which can process these goods and can export these out.
> 
> Huge motorway systems wont do much unless you buils your economy and your local middle class


Precisely. These are not being used as lines of communication for trade like say GT road is or other regional highways are. Ideally bulk of freight should be moving via railways but the political economy has evolved in a manner where powerful interest groups rake money through roads transportation. It was not always so.

Reactions: Sad Sad:
1


----------



## Pak Nationalist

khansaheeb said:


> Stop being so negative, Pakistan is not a super rich nation and these projects take time. CPEC has made remarkable progress and evil eyes are watching it , stop scheming criticisms to undermine the project.



A dispassionate analysis of the CPEC related developments is scheming? Are you aware that the debt portion of CPEC was supposed to be financed majorly by CPEC 2.0 that involved increasing our domestic production? The financial sustainability of the CPEC project rests on the successful implementation of CPEC 2.0 that involves large-scale industrial cooperation. Highlighting how we are lagging on that in the wider interest of CPEC project is scheming? Pakistan is not a super-rich country, true. That is why we needed industrial cooperation to produce exportable surpluses earning precious foreign exchange to pay for all the debt-based infrastructure development (there is a debt component to the CPEC, too) that was being developed. "Evil eyes" and "hands" would be successful if progress on CPEC 2.0 is not made. Evil hands are already successful in threatening the security of Chinese workers in Pakistan. Why would Chinese investors invest in an insecure environment? Again, that success must be attributed to weak leadership and lack of capability build-up in the security realm.

Reactions: Like Like:
4 | Love Love:
1


----------



## Vapnope

The agreement with China is still shrouded in mystery while the tall claims were made by PMLn and then PTI. We are seeing zero collaboration between Pakistan and China for capacity building in manufacturing sector (Strictly speaking of civilian industries) and it from Chinese standpoint, why would they train their competitor when they can earn by selling their product in Pakistan. 

Dawood Razak was supposed to find a way to negotiate with Chinese and find a way to include domestic players in CPEC projects. Now it seems that we have lost the steam and Chinese are pissed for delays from our side. Somebody take it up in the senate to address this issue. 

Are we to believe the rumors that some powerful people in Pakistan are deliberately delaying CPEC for they have an understanding with American? Food for thought !

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Vapour

Whilst not comparable, I somewhat agree with the Israel- Iran analogy, we're not seeing visible retaliation that has plausible deniability against Indian perpetrators of incidents in mainland Pakistan.

Wonder if Moeed Yusuf is the correct man for the NSA role, does he have enough empowerment to suggest full spectrum solutions or has only been tasked to provide political and academic views? Perhaps a decoupling of his role, so that he keeps doing the very important job of looking at Pakistan's security in other domains such as food etc., remains with him and someone more versed in Intelligence matters is handed the NSA position.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Desprado

Vapnope said:


> The agreement with China is still shrouded in mystery while the tall claims were made by PMLn and then PTI. We are seeing zero collaboration between Pakistan and China for capacity building in manufacturing sector (Strictly speaking of civilian industries) and it from Chinese standpoint, why would they train their competitor when they can earn by selling their product in Pakistan.
> 
> Dawood Razak was supposed to find a way to negotiate with Chinese and find a way to include domestic players in CPEC projects. Now it seems that we have lost the steam and Chinese are pissed for delays from our side. Somebody take it up in the senate to address this issue.
> 
> Are we to believe the rumors that some powerful people in Pakistan are deliberately delaying CPEC for they have an understanding with American? Food for thought !


It both PTI and PMLN fault.

PMLN did not see the projects and was amazingly to fast and PTI delayed CPEC from the start of the year, which impact FDI, investments, projects and secondary investment.

PTI was clueless and another Imran khan statement that i have 200 finance team ready for Pakistan, which turned out to much worse than Isaq Dar.

Imran Khan is man with Speech but without any plan. He has no plan is fact that Pakistan has to deal with otherwise he would not have hired a person who has made worst bank ever in Pakistan ,which is Silk Bank and Union Bank.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Pappa Alpha

Chris Logan said:


> Gazwa-I-Hind won't happen due to the sheer difference in scale.


Off topic: Hind has been fked before multiple times, with much less. Anyways, you shouldn't worry too much about it since it clearly won't happen due to sheer difference in scale.

Reactions: Like Like:
2 | Love Love:
1


----------



## Falconless

Putting all your eggs in one basket is always a mistake, we did this with the Americans first and now I fear we are doing it with the Chinese.


----------



## Chris Logan

Pappa Alpha said:


> Pajeet, open a new thread with this question and many will oblige your deficiency. Quit polluting this thread about CPEC with irrelevant stuff.


Focus on Trade with India.


----------



## IceCold

Chris Logan said:


> Focus on Trade with India.


Why not **** trade with India. Wait we already did that.


----------



## Sadd hassan

IceCold said:


> Why not **** trade with India. Wait we already did that.


Dont entertain this moron he is derailing the thread and i have already reported him.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## maithil

Why isn't China relenting and helping a friend in need ?


----------



## S.Y.A

Chris Logan said:


> how many actual wars has Pakistan won against actual peer competitors?


how many wars has india won against a comparable power?
On topic: only thing left to do for Pakistan is to seriously lobby western investors for investments (Lucky grp succeeded in bringing samsung here, others can follow suit), and it needs to lobby local industrialists and chambers of commerce to increase exports.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Pak Nationalist

Vapnope said:


> The agreement with China is still shrouded in mystery while the tall claims were made by PMLn and then PTI. We are seeing zero collaboration between Pakistan and China for capacity building in manufacturing sector (Strictly speaking of civilian industries) and it from Chinese standpoint, why would they train their competitor when they can earn by selling their product in Pakistan.
> 
> Dawood Razak was supposed to find a way to negotiate with Chinese and find a way to include domestic players in CPEC projects. Now it seems that we have lost the steam and Chinese are pissed for delays from our side. Somebody take it up in the senate to address this issue.
> 
> Are we to believe the rumors that some powerful people in Pakistan are deliberately delaying CPEC for they have an understanding with American? Food for thought !


The latter part is really worrisome. What has that understanding given us till now even if such a thing exists? Are there any hidden IMF conditions or a cautious approach by the Chinese themselves until Pakistan remains in the IMF program? 

Labor is getting expensive in China, and Chinese businesses are doing what Americans did (offshoring) when the labor cost rose in their country to keep their products competitive globally. We had to attract investment from the Chinese to set up plants in Pakistan and export from here. Skill transfer to local labor/management would have been a self-perpetuating cycle.


Vapour said:


> Whilst not comparable, I somewhat agree with the Israel- Iran analogy, we're not seeing visible retaliation that has plausible deniability against Indian perpetrators of incidents in mainland Pakistan.
> 
> Wonder if Moeed Yusuf is the correct man for the NSA role, does he have enough empowerment to suggest full spectrum solutions or has only been tasked to provide political and academic views? Perhaps a decoupling of his role, so that he keeps doing the very important job of looking at Pakistan's security in other domains such as food etc., remains with him and someone more versed in Intelligence matters is handed the NSA position.


The retaliatory tools rest with the ISI. I do not think Moeed has much say in any of this. However, his brainchild of geoeconomics might be holding some back. He is a brilliant scholar, but he is not right here when Pakistan has to present the other cheek after being slapped on one by our bitter foe.


Pappa Alpha said:


> Off topic: Hind has been fked before multiple times, with much less. Anyways, you shouldn't worry too much about it since it clearly won't happen due to sheer difference in scale.


Forget ghazwas, buddy. We are talking about the cold hard facts related to the present day. I would appreciate it if we could retain the focus on the issues being discussed under this thread's central theme. 

Regards


Chris Logan said:


> Focus on Trade with India.


India wants to settle the bilateral disputes unilaterally, and there could be no normalcy in relations in such a scenario. Without normalcy, there could be no decent trade.


----------



## Pak Nationalist

maithil said:


> Why isn't China relenting and helping a friend in need ?


China is not to be blamed in its entirety. Our leaders negotiated exceptionally lousy deals salivating at the prospects of short-term relief (addressing the power capacity shortfall) while not caring about the long-term impacts of those deals on the economy. Then CPEC 2.0 could not take off that could have mitigated deficits on the external front, particularly in our trade with the world.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Pak Nationalist

What we have seen is Pakistan consciously putting all eggs in one basket. Nations like us actually leverage their position when these are being courted by influential global players is to play them off each other to get the best deals. Of course, China is a key ally, but just like it does not appreciate reopening the terms of settled contracts for negotiations, we should have played the world powers off each other to extract maximum benefits for ourselves (that is what BD is doing). Instead, we painted ourselves as the poster boy of BRI in a growingly polarized world. In retrospect, maybe we did what we did because we were sinking when PML N assumed office in 2013 with 12-16 hours of power outages. PML N was thrown a lifeline, and it grabbed it by both hands. We could have contained our excitement, though, and worked diligently on CPEC without creating the type of media waves we did. The west now sees us sitting in the Chinese camp and does not want to commit to investments. The question is, can we still play global powers off each other to get the best investment deals?


----------



## mudas777

*Xi at the start of the CPEC have told us with the CPEC belt and road initiative both brothers will develop and prosper together.* This doesn't looks like it even its our own corrupt rulers doing but surely Chinese knew what they are getting out of us and this is not a win win situation between two brothers more like it one brother is ripping the other one off as one brother was blind.

We are not an African nation 1000's of miles away from the China and where they can do the investments and earn handsome profit. We are the only friend China have got where we can depend on each other, and down and out Pakistan will not be in China interests too. US is still ruling the waves with their Marshal plan development of Europe after the World war no wonder Europe shows up along side the US on every theatre. This flag ship project of belt and road will soon be without a flag and ship will be returning back to the China, if that's how they do business with us and just win for one like it happens in Sri Lanka. China needs to decide on the political level rather then the business level not to spoil brotherhood between the two nations. China have given the best opportunity to the West to make a song a dance about this unless this is not resolved behind the doors. China have to look at Pakistan differently instead of making exuberant profit they need to make a profit without destabilising us and developing Pakistan for their own security and future too.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## ziaulislam

Desprado said:


> Requires approval of IMF and you want Pakistan to end IMF program. Joke is on you.


IMF has nothing to fo with AB WB


----------



## Wood

What were the 'bad deals' signed by the last administration in Pakistan? As per the dawn article, it seems like China expects $1.4 billion dollars in payment. What would be the consequence if Pakistan refuses to pay at this time?

As Pakistan is a strategic ally of China, I think it will get a more preferential treatment than a country like Sri Lanka.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## CriticalThought

Pak Nationalist said:


> What we have seen is Pakistan consciously putting all eggs in one basket. Nations like us actually leverage their position when these are being courted by influential global players is to play them off each other to get the best deals. Of course, China is a key ally, but just like it does not appreciate reopening the terms of settled contracts for negotiations, we should have played the world powers off each other to extract maximum benefits for ourselves (that is what BD is doing). Instead, we painted ourselves as the poster boy of BRI in a growingly polarized world. In retrospect, maybe we did what we did because we were sinking when PML N assumed office in 2013 with 12-16 hours of power outages. PML N was thrown a lifeline, and it grabbed it by both hands. We could have contained our excitement, though, and worked diligently on CPEC without creating the type of media waves we did. The west now sees us sitting in the Chinese camp and does not want to commit to investments. The question is, can we still play global powers off each other to get the best investment deals?



In order to play world powers against one another, you need patriots in the government. When you have self-serving corrupts, you will only get the sucker's deal each time. I am sure Nawaz government saw political expedience without considering Pakistan's interests. And Imran Khan is an American slave who has damaged the project further to win accolades from his master. We ARE playing world powers, but by giving them turns to hit us where it hurts most.


----------



## HammerHead081

It has started to look like Chinese are making clowns out of us. Constant loans for highways, terrible IPPs contracts, not developing ML1 or any industries.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Protest_again

CPEC was a game changer before but only now Pakistanis are realizing that it was actually a noose around their necks. Back then people were raising concerns about secrecy of the deals involving CPEC. Entire PDF would shout that toll gate collection from trade to China (lol) would be enough for paying back. Now begging China to reduce and cut back on the interests. Pakistani leadership and its people have no foresight.


mudas777 said:


> *Xi at the start of the CPEC have told us with the CPEC belt and road initiative both brothers will develop and prosper together.* This doesn't looks like it even its our own corrupt rulers doing but surely Chinese knew what they are getting out of us and this is not a win win situation between two brothers more like it one brother is ripping the other one off as one brother was blind.
> 
> We are not an African nation 1000's of miles away from the China and where they can do the investments and earn handsome profit. We are the only friend China have got where we can depend on each other, and down and out Pakistan will not be in China interests too. US is still ruling the waves with their Marshal plan development of Europe after the World war no wonder Europe shows up along side the US on every theatre. This flag ship project of belt and road will soon be without a flag and ship will be returning back to the China, if that's how they do business with us and just win for one like it happens in Sri Lanka. China needs to decide on the political level rather then the business level not to spoil brotherhood between the two nations. China have given the best opportunity to the West to make a song a dance about this unless this is not resolved behind the doors. China have to look at Pakistan differently instead of making exuberant profit they need to make a profit without destabilising us and developing Pakistan for their own security and future too.


Come out of this brother brother relationship. Pakistanis are fools to think like that in the first place. Understand your position ( both economically and politically ) and work for your interests period. No one is out there to help Pakistan. And please stop lecturing others on how to deal with you. They are better placed to make such decisions for themselves. If India and China can resolve their issues, the latter will dump you in the trash and invest in India like there is no tomorrow. So please wake up and smell the coffee.


----------



## Rana4pak

strange world your arch enemy tell You are doing wrong //
?


----------



## War Historian

Chris Logan said:


> how many actual wars has Pakistan won against actual peer competitors?


Is your post in correct section.or you want to derail the topic. Thanks

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Riz

Pak Nationalist said:


> In the recent JCC meeting, it appears that the Pakistani side could not get anything it set out to get while the Chinese side has gotten everything it wanted. Tariffs for the Chinese IPPs would not be renegotiated, meaning that PML-N ad-hocism would continue costing the country for the foreseeable future. ML-1 project could also not get off the rail where Pakistani view was again not accepted. Most importantly, the CPEC 2.0, where we were supposed to see widespread industrial collaboration, has remained a pipedream. This collaboration was supposed to increase our production capacity and create exportable surpluses, helping us finance the debt component of the CPEC. No progress on this front was made in this JCC either. It is unclear who is to be blamed for the go-slow policy on this front. Instead, we are talking about the construction of Dir, DIK-Peshawar Motorways which would either be constructed by incurring debt or on a BOT basis necessitating hefty tolls once these become operational. Motorways are not utilized in Pakistan for inter/intra-country trade due to the heavy tolls involved. Is this infrastructure going to improve the productive capacity of our economy? PML-N styled spending priorities that the incumbents used to frown upon rightfully have been embraced by them, unfortunately. Dasu dam attack has angered the Chinese to the extent that the construction on this strategic project which is vital to our water/food security and bringing down power tariffs in the long term, has been completely halted. One does not blame the Chinese there because the weakness of our leaders has virtually allowed India to assume the role of Israel and converted Pakistan into an Iran where Israel could take unilateral actions at will. It has increasingly become easy for India to thwart Pakistan's progress, whether Dasu attack, cyber attacks directed at our critical civilian infrastructure (FBR), or the disinformation operation aimed at Newzealand cricket team's visit (economic and image dividends cricket coming back to Pakistan would have had).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan, China agree not to alter tariff on power deals
> 
> 
> Beijing seeks security of workers, arrest and prosecution of Dasu attackers as JCC of CPEC meets after two years.
> 
> 
> 
> www.dawn.com


Abhi to kom harami nawazy ki polices ka khamyazi agly 20 sall bugtay gi


----------



## Pak Nationalist

CriticalThought said:


> In order to play world powers against one another, you need patriots in the government. When you have self-serving corrupts, you will only get the sucker's deal each time. I am sure Nawaz government saw political expedience without considering Pakistan's interests. And Imran Khan is an American slave who has damaged the project further to win accolades from his master. We ARE playing world powers, but by giving them turns to hit us where it hurts most.


That's an extreme position. Imran is the most anti-American PM we have had. His government going slow on CPEC has roots in something else. But you are right; we need patriots and staunch nationalists in government to play powers off each other to get deals in our best national interest. PMLN leadership has always been too shortsighted. I reckon the dynamics of our political system where instability is the only constant has a role to play there. When political parties are not sure about the longevity of their governments in the face of "engineered" dharnas and whatnot, politicians seldom think about the long-term stuff. Since PTI had "guarantees," you see the incumbents putting some effort into long-term policymaking today. At the crux of many ills plaguing us is the lack of political stability and intervention of apolitical institutions into the political realm. That is self-defeating for Pakistan. That's the lesson of history we fail to learn.


----------



## Pak Nationalist

mudas777 said:


> *Xi at the start of the CPEC have told us with the CPEC belt and road initiative both brothers will develop and prosper together.* This doesn't looks like it even its our own corrupt rulers doing but surely Chinese knew what they are getting out of us and this is not a win win situation between two brothers more like it one brother is ripping the other one off as one brother was blind.
> 
> We are not an African nation 1000's of miles away from the China and where they can do the investments and earn handsome profit. We are the only friend China have got where we can depend on each other, and down and out Pakistan will not be in China interests too. US is still ruling the waves with their Marshal plan development of Europe after the World war no wonder Europe shows up along side the US on every theatre. This flag ship project of belt and road will soon be without a flag and ship will be returning back to the China, if that's how they do business with us and just win for one like it happens in Sri Lanka. China needs to decide on the political level rather then the business level not to spoil brotherhood between the two nations. China have given the best opportunity to the West to make a song a dance about this unless this is not resolved behind the doors. China have to look at Pakistan differently instead of making exuberant profit they need to make a profit without destabilising us and developing Pakistan for their own security and future too.


I agree with you. A lot has been said about the long-term strategic thinking of the Chinese and how it sets them apart from other players on the geopolitical chessboard. However, this rigidity for short-term commercial gains is not depictive of that strategic culture we get to hear from Sinophiles. A prosperous, stronger Pakistan would prove to be a boon for the Chinese, who are short of true and powerful friends just like the Soviets were (that ultimately led to their undoing). One thought that comes to mind is that China might not be extending the concessions to Pakistan because we are not "practically" boarding the Chinese ship wholly. We pay overzealous lipservice to the BRI but remain committed to courting the West and Western interests as well (that is another story that we have failed in courting those as West sees us with suspicion taking our zeal for BRI as a proof of our firm plantation into the Chinese camp; I have talked about it in a comment above). Maybe if China saw as by its side firmly, it could have extended concessions, so in the absence of that, it could see us from the prism of business interests only.

The common theme is that we have been loud-mouthed about BRI and CPEC instead of silently working with utmost diligence on the projects under the same umbrella. This has alienated us from the West that we seek to court as well. While the Chinese seeing our efforts to court the West still, have also grown skeptical of us over time and are unwilling to extend the same kind of concessions they might be willing had we committed ourselves cent percent. For Pakistan, I think we made a mistake by being loudmouthed and overzealous about CPEC instead of just taking the project to its conclusion in silence.


Wood said:


> What were the 'bad deals' signed by the last administration in Pakistan? As per the dawn article, it seems like China expects $1.4 billion dollars in payment. What would be the consequence if Pakistan refuses to pay at this time?
> 
> As Pakistan is a strategic ally of China, I think it will get a more preferential treatment than a country like Sri Lanka.


We entered take or pay agreements in setting up the power plants in G2G agreements involving Chinese construction companies. Now we are stuck with overcapacity and capacity payments. This is compounding the miseries of our power sector that, even before the introduction of excess capacity, had a chronic circular debt problem.


HammerHead081 said:


> It has started to look like Chinese are making clowns out of us. Constant loans for highways, terrible IPPs contracts, not developing ML1 or any industries.


The bigger question is that why are we asking for infrastructure development that is not aligned with our national interest or increasing the productive capacity of our economy? Why blame the Chinese for our own foolishness? PTI is doing the same things it used to lambaste PMLN for rightly. What good would Peshawar DI Khan motorway serve Pakistan? Are motorways in Pakistan being used as lines of communication for trade? If not, why? Because the toll is very high? A whole lot of foolishness that does not come to an end.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Pak Nationalist

Protest_again said:


> CPEC was a game changer before but only now Pakistanis are realizing that it was actually a noose around their necks. Back then people were raising concerns about secrecy of the deals involving CPEC. Entire PDF would shout that toll gate collection from trade to China (lol) would be enough for paying back. Now begging China to reduce and cut back on the interests. Pakistani leadership and its people have no foresight.
> 
> Come out of this brother brother relationship. Pakistanis are fools to think like that in the first place. Understand your position ( both economically and politically ) and work for your interests period. No one is out there to help Pakistan. And please stop lecturing others on how to deal with you. They are better placed to make such decisions for themselves. If India and China can resolve their issues, the latter will dump you in the trash and invest in India like there is no tomorrow. So please wake up and smell the coffee.


If you think the stock here at PDF is the sole representative of the Pakistani public's intellect, you are grossly mistaken. There were many critical voices in Pakistan even then. Even the conservatives that usually align with the narrative of state institutions were cynical about the closed-door deals being made. However, everything wretched is not done by design oftentimes. The same happened during the last PML N stint. Pakistan needed to increase its power generation capacity and do it fast. Enter the Chinese. PML N leaders saw their entry and CPEC as a lifeline to address the chronic power woes of the country. CPEC addressed our power generation shortfall but left excess capacity because the concerned could not project demand properly. Much of the capacity could have been absorbed if an era of industrialization had been unleashed. CPEC 2.0 envisaged that. Comes 2018 and enters PTI, which for reasons unknown till now (maybe IMF, concern in military establishment vis a vis the nature of the CPEC deals, pro-West elements in Pakistani policymaking/political circles, etc.) put brakes on the pace of CPEC development. Consequently, Pakistan still awaits the CPEC 2.0 to kick off. Chinese grow impatient with the lack of pace in developing projects and may be unwilling to extend concessions to inflict costs for our government's vacillations. We are left with an excess capacity that cannot be absorbed because the industries (and SEZs) that were going to consume major chunks were never set up (or see plodding progress). 

CPEC was definitely a game-changer, but the unforeseen circumstances that arise in the execution of such large-scale ventures in third world countries have made sure its potential remains unharnessed till now.


----------



## ghazi52

*$3.2 Billion Karachi Coastal Comprehensive Development Zone (KCCDZ) included under the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor framework.*

MARITIME MINISTRY INITIATES A HUGE ECONOMIC TRANSFORMATION PROJECT FOR KARACHI UNDER CPEC

A monumental decision was taken during the *10th Joint Cooperation Committee (JCC) on CPEC, held on 23rd September 2021* at Islamabad and Beijing. The two countries agreed to include Karachi Coastal Comprehensive Development Zone (KCCDZ) under the CPEC framework.


KCCDZ, an initiative of the Ministry of Maritime Affairs focuses on providing Karachi with an ultra modern urban infrastructure zone, placing Karachi amongst the top port cities of the world.

In a first of its kind even for CPEC, the planned multibillion dollar mega KCCDZ project will be built on direct Chinese investment in partnership with Karachi Port Trust (KPT). The quantum of expected investment is around USD 3.5 billion.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## GOAT

Renegotiating long term deals such as these has a low likelihood of success, this shouldn’t come as a surprise.


----------



## CriticalThought

Pak Nationalist said:


> That's an extreme position. Imran is the most anti-American PM we have had. His government going slow on CPEC has roots in something else. But you are right; we need patriots and staunch nationalists in government to play powers off each other to get deals in our best national interest. PMLN leadership has always been too shortsighted. I reckon the dynamics of our political system where instability is the only constant has a role to play there. When political parties are not sure about the longevity of their governments in the face of "engineered" dharnas and whatnot, politicians seldom think about the long-term stuff. Since PTI had "guarantees," you see the incumbents putting some effort into long-term policymaking today. At the crux of many ills plaguing us is the lack of political stability and intervention of apolitical institutions into the political realm. That is self-defeating for Pakistan. That's the lesson of history we fail to learn.



His advisers are chums with Jared Krushner and have been following an American agenda. As soon as his minister was given access to Nadra database, the first thing he tried was stealing the data. Trump is on record saying Imran Khan is his great friend. The game of selling Pakistan's interests would have gone further if Trump remained in power. But Joe Biden came along and Pakistan has completely lost its geo-strategic value. Now, America's only interest is somehow getting rid of Pakistan's nuclear arsenal and if Bajwa and Khan could easily deliver on it, they would. Meanwhile, they have been trying hard to follow the American diktaks regarding India. I have this straight from the mouth of an ex-Australian diplomat who has worked in Islamabad that we had been calling for the Kartarpur Corridor for years. Bajwa and Khan have realized this Western agenda. They have made no effort to enhance cotton production and instead they are trying to make our textile industry dependent on Indian cotton. And now, Shaukat Tarin has openly said he doesn't care about textiles and the whole focus is on IT. A sector where funding is coming from America, and exports will be to America. The companies formed will be headed by Americans. This is how they operate: use cheap Pakistani talent for production, pay them only for cheap production costs to export to America, sell for huge profits and keep profits in America. None of this will have any positive impact on Pakistan's debt which will keep increasing, or the exchange rate. They are selling the country into servitude and using superficial successes to dupe an ignorant and largely illiterate nation.

Reactions: Wow Wow:
1


----------



## hydrabadi_arab

Tbh China doesnt have lot do with power plants. Remember that stupid plan to build 10 coal power plants in Balochistan? 

Fact is Pakistan is corrupt country where people look to earn “comission” in every project. More projects mean more money.


----------



## ziaulislam

CriticalThought said:


> In order to play world powers against one another, you need patriots in the government. When you have self-serving corrupts, you will only get the sucker's deal each time. I am sure Nawaz government saw political expedience without considering Pakistan's interests. And Imran Khan is an American slave who has damaged the project further to win accolades from his master. We ARE playing world powers, but by giving them turns to hit us where it hurts most.


IK is vetting the projects more just like every other country be it bengladesh or mayalsia

Where as nawaj said yes to everything

If pakistanis love CPEC then why arenot they ready to pay the price

This is open knowledge CPEC hydro is 8 cents(14 rupees approx 18 after taxes) vs asian bank funded at 4 cents

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Pak Nationalist

CriticalThought said:


> His advisers are chums with Jared Krushner and have been following an American agenda. As soon as his minister was given access to Nadra database, the first thing he tried was stealing the data. Trump is on record saying Imran Khan is his great friend. The game of selling Pakistan's interests would have gone further if Trump remained in power. But Joe Biden came along and Pakistan has completely lost its geo-strategic value. Now, America's only interest is somehow getting rid of Pakistan's nuclear arsenal and if Bajwa and Khan could easily deliver on it, they would. Meanwhile, they have been trying hard to follow the American diktaks regarding India. I have this straight from the mouth of an ex-Australian diplomat who has worked in Islamabad that we had been calling for the Kartarpur Corridor for years. Bajwa and Khan have realized this Western agenda. They have made no effort to enhance cotton production and instead they are trying to make our cotton industry dependent on Indian cotton. And now, Shaukat Tarin has openly said he doesn't care about textiles and the whole focus is on IT. A sector where funding is coming from America, and exports will be to America. The companies formed will be headed by Americans. This is how they operate: use cheap Pakistani talent for production, pay them only for cheap production costs to export to America, sell for huge profits and keep profits in America. None of this will have any positive impact on Pakistan's debt which will keep increasing, or the exchange rate. They are selling the country into servitude and using superficial successes to dupe an ignorant and largely illiterate nation.





hydrabadi_arab said:


> Tbh China doesnt have lot do with power plants. Remember that stupid plan to build 10 coal power plants in Balochistan?
> 
> Fact is Pakistan is corrupt country where people look to earn “comission” in every project, and more projects mean more money.


That might be one of the reasons plants after plants were set up, and the power demand was not properly projected in the years to come. However, the source of worry is the full stop (or excruciatingly slow development) on CPEC 2.0 to attract Chinese industry to Pakistan, construct SEZs, and enable us to repay the debt accumulated for all the infrastructure development across the length and breadth of the country. Articles were being written in Dawn about the overcapacity that would arise after the LNG-based plant was launched in Punjab.


----------



## khansaheeb

Pak Nationalist said:


> A dispassionate analysis of the CPEC related developments is scheming? Are you aware that the debt portion of CPEC was supposed to be financed majorly by CPEC 2.0 that involved increasing our domestic production? The financial sustainability of the CPEC project rests on the successful implementation of CPEC 2.0 that involves large-scale industrial cooperation. Highlighting how we are lagging on that in the wider interest of CPEC project is scheming? Pakistan is not a super-rich country, true. That is why we needed industrial cooperation to produce exportable surpluses earning precious foreign exchange to pay for all the debt-based infrastructure development (there is a debt component to the CPEC, too) that was being developed. "Evil eyes" and "hands" would be successful if progress on CPEC 2.0 is not made. Evil hands are already successful in threatening the security of Chinese workers in Pakistan. Why would Chinese investors invest in an insecure environment? Again, that success must be attributed to weak leadership and lack of capability build-up in the security realm.



Perhaps you need to have a more passionate approach for achievement and success. CPEC is a success story comparable to any in human history, with the help of the Chinese people, Pakistan has achieved what was deemed impossible. Pakistan has been transformed from a country on the brink of being a failed state to a country with a dynamic and thriving economy and an infrastructure on par with the richest nations of the world. With what little money that was left by the corrupts from the previous govs, the PTI gov have continued the projects and have successfully completed a vast network of roads, bridges, Dams, port/dry ports , power plants and economic industrial zones. PTI had to make hard business sense decisions for continuity based on the state of the finances and the economic climate. PTI economists were obligated and expected to review the whole scheme and cut some projects to balance the books. China accepted the review and the projects were adjusted accordingly.

In a bureaucratic and corrupt country like Pakistan achieving CPEC 1.0 is in it self a huge achievement and praises should be sung for all those who helped achieve it from Nawaz Sharif, President Xi, PM Imran Khan and Pakistan and Chinese armed forces. As you have seen there were huge challenges to overcome and you don't seem to be appreciating the colossal size and scale of the projects, the jobs it has created, the skills and empowerment of the workers and their families. The number of these projects and the technology behind them has awed the world. Chinese technology and Pakistani and Chinese spirit of workmanship has stunned the world who thought it was impossible. Other nations who had looked into the feasibility of such projects always had negative reports and these same projects were drowned as being not feasible or too costly. Only China had the sincerity and commitment to make this happen.

Like all investments there will be people who will get cold feet and worry if it was the right investment. As in all investments there will be people who have unreasonable expectations and timescales. Yes Pakistan did go on a spending spree and, mix in Pakistan's corruption, delays and higher project costs were inevitable. Higher project costs means the debt to China will be increased and they haven't given us free money, China is not a charity , they have 1.4 billion people to feed and CPEC is a business and strategic venture for them and us. it's Pakistan's dependencies on foreign factors (not Chinese) that is undermining rapid CPEC progress including Currency rates, gov and external debt and foreign entities, whose economic system game we are playing, undermine our economic gains through uncontrolled foreign capital flows. This results in Pakistan attempting to reduce debt by borrowing and hence increasing debt causing Pakistan to be stuck in a cycle and trapped. This is a result of our Western trained economists who only know the Western economics game and not a fault of any other nation. Iran realised long time ago that if you play someone else's game and you keep losing then it best to stop playing the game.

The planners were aware of the risks to the project and these were not unfounded. Other than the financial costs Pakistan has had to focus huge resources in security. Building the fence with Afghanistan, allocating two Divisions and more of PA and suffering a relentless Indian sponsored terrorism has increased the costs. There is also a continual spiteful anti-CPEC agenda spread daily by the enemies of Pakistan who attack it from all angles. Like old hags they keep bitching about the debt, pace, wisdom and need for the investments. The enemies of Pakistan want to undermine CPEC at all costs and will spend huge fortunes from it being a success. We need to be disciplined and focused and counter all the negativities being spewed around. Like all investments they focus on the pains of today and not the pleasures of tomorrow which CPEC will bring to countless generations. The sacrifices of todays generation will be appreciated and enjoyed by the next.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## HalfMoon

Pak Nationalist said:


> In the recent JCC meeting, it appears that the Pakistani side could not get anything it set out to get while the Chinese side has gotten everything it wanted. Tariffs for the Chinese IPPs would not be renegotiated, meaning that PML-N ad-hocism would continue costing the country for the foreseeable future. ML-1 project could also not get off the rail where Pakistani view was again not accepted. Most importantly, the CPEC 2.0, where we were supposed to see widespread industrial collaboration, has remained a pipedream. This collaboration was supposed to increase our production capacity and create exportable surpluses, helping us finance the debt component of the CPEC. No progress on this front was made in this JCC either. It is unclear who is to be blamed for the go-slow policy on this front. Instead, we are talking about the construction of Dir, DIK-Peshawar Motorways which would either be constructed by incurring debt or on a BOT basis necessitating hefty tolls once these become operational. Motorways are not utilized in Pakistan for inter/intra-country trade due to the heavy tolls involved. Is this infrastructure going to improve the productive capacity of our economy? PML-N styled spending priorities that the incumbents used to frown upon rightfully have been embraced by them, unfortunately. Dasu dam attack has angered the Chinese to the extent that the construction on this strategic project which is vital to our water/food security and bringing down power tariffs in the long term, has been completely halted. One does not blame the Chinese there because the weakness of our leaders has virtually allowed India to assume the role of Israel and converted Pakistan into an Iran where Israel could take unilateral actions at will. It has increasingly become easy for India to thwart Pakistan's progress, whether Dasu attack, cyber attacks directed at our critical civilian infrastructure (FBR), or the disinformation operation aimed at Newzealand cricket team's visit (economic and image dividends cricket coming back to Pakistan would have had).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan, China agree not to alter tariff on power deals
> 
> 
> Beijing seeks security of workers, arrest and prosecution of Dasu attackers as JCC of CPEC meets after two years.
> 
> 
> 
> www.dawn.com



Pure Indian propaganda. No one takes dawn seriously.


----------



## ziaulislam

I am not saying its chinese fault here

Its pakistanis fault

Instead of a true owner ship ww gave them BOT model hence very expensive hydro for first 15 years

It should have been a flat tarrif for 40-50 yrs rather then BOT model to gather power at aroind 4-5 cents rather then 8-10 cents

Same is true for coal..why go for coal at 8 cents
The RLNG by pakistan own govt(PMLN era project) is cheaper then CPEC coal

These are all pakostani decisions

So is the orange rail at whopping 3 b$


----------



## Pak Nationalist

khansaheeb said:


> Perhaps you need to have a more passionate approach for achievement and success. CPEC is a success story comparable to any in human history, with the help of the Chinese people, Pakistan has achieved what was deemed impossible. Pakistan has been transformed from a country on the brink of being a failed state to a country with a dynamic and thriving economy and an infrastructure on par with the richest nations of the world. With what little money that was left by the corrupts from the previous govs, the PTI gov have continued the projects and have successfully completed a vast network of roads, bridges, Dams, port/dry ports , power plants and economic industrial zones. PTI had to make hard business sense decisions for continuity based on the state of the finances and the economic climate. PTI economists were obligated and expected to review the whole scheme and cut some projects to balance the books. China accepted the review and the projects were adjusted accordingly.
> 
> In a bureaucratic and corrupt country like Pakistan achieving CPEC 1.0 is in it self a huge achievement and praises should be sung for all those who helped achieve it from Nawaz Sharif, President Xi, PM Imran Khan and Pakistan and Chinese armed forces. As you have seen there were huge challenges to overcome and you don't seem to be appreciating the colossal size and scale of the projects, the jobs it has created, the skills and empowerment of the workers and their families. The number of these projects and the technology behind them has awed the world. Chinese technology and Pakistani and Chinese spirit of workmanship has stunned the world who thought it was impossible. Other nations who had looked into the feasibility of such projects always had negative reports and these same projects were drowned as being not feasible or too costly. Only China had the sincerity and commitment to make this happen.
> 
> Like all investments there will be people who will get cold feet and worry if it was the right investment. As in all investments there will be people who have unreasonable expectations and timescales. Yes Pakistan did go on a spending spree and, mix in Pakistan's corruption, delays and higher project costs were inevitable. Higher project costs means the debt to China will be increased and they haven't given us free money, China is not a charity , they have 1.4 billion people to feed and CPEC is a business and strategic venture for them and us. it's Pakistan's dependencies on foreign factors (not Chinese) that is undermining rapid CPEC progress including Currency rates, gov and external debt and foreign entities, whose economic system game we are playing, undermine our economic gains through uncontrolled foreign capital flows. This results in Pakistan attempting to reduce debt by borrowing and hence increasing debt causing Pakistan to be stuck in a cycle and trapped. This is a result of our Western trained economists who only know the Western economics game and not a fault of any other nation. Iran realised long time ago that if you play someone else's game and you keep losing then it best to stop playing the game.
> 
> The planners were aware of the risks to the project and these were not unfounded. Other than the financial costs Pakistan has had to focus huge resources in security. Building the fence with Afghanistan, allocating two Divisions and more of PA and suffering a relentless Indian sponsored terrorism has increased the costs. There is also a continual spiteful anti-CPEC agenda spread daily by the enemies of Pakistan who attack it from all angles. Like old hags they keep bitching about the debt, pace, wisdom and need for the investments. The enemies of Pakistan want to undermine CPEC at all costs and will spend huge fortunes from it being a success. We need to be disciplined and focused and counter all the negativities being spewed around. Like all investments they focus on the pains of today and not the pleasures of tomorrow which CPEC will bring to countless generations. The sacrifices of todays generation will be appreciated and enjoyed by the next.



How much has our GDP grown as a consequence of CPEC 1.0? Where are we getting the capacity charges from in our energy sector from most newly constructed power plants that necessitated the GoP's intention to renegotiate the CPEC power projects? Such a beautiful picture you have painted. It appears we have lived in two separate Pakistans. I would take a dispassionate analysis focusing on cost-benefit and undelivered promises over such "passion".

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## khansaheeb

Pak Nationalist said:


> How much has our GDP grown as a consequence of CPEC 1.0? Where are we getting the capacity charges from in our energy sector from most newly constructed power plants that necessitated the GoP's intention to renegotiate the CPEC power projects? Such a beautiful picture you have painted. It appears we have lived in two separate Pakistans. I would take a dispassionate analysis focusing on cost-benefit and undelivered promises over such "passion".


You need to be patient my friend, time is money with CPEC. Definition of investment:-" An investment is a purchase that is completed with money that has the *potential to produce income or a profit*. ... Investing is *the act of putting forth capital with the expectation of income or profit*. Personal investing is buying financial securities or property for the purpose of making a profit."(https://www.m1finance.com/articles-2/what-is-an-investment/)

CPEC 1.0 is infrastructure investment , CPEC 2.0 is Industrial wealth generation. CPEC 3.0 will be Cultural wealth generation. There will be so much much money floating around people will be spending more time on leisure and vacations.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Pak Nationalist

khansaheeb said:


> You need to be patient my friend, time is money with CPEC. Definition of investment:-" An investment is a purchase that is completed with money that has the *potential to produce income or a profit*. ... Investing is *the act of putting forth capital with the expectation of income or profit*. Personal investing is buying financial securities or property for the purpose of making a profit."(https://www.m1finance.com/articles-2/what-is-an-investment/)
> 
> CPEC 1.0 is infrastructure investment , CPEC 2.0 is Industrial wealth generation. CPEC 3.0 will be Cultural wealth generation. There will be so much much money floating around people will be spending more time on leisure and vacations.


That's the entire point of contention. CPEC 2.0 is 3 years late already, with no signs of it on the horizon. My post was around that concern, and JCC did not take it up. Had we even achieved something substantive in this regard at the end of the recent JCC, I would not have made this thread. Without CPEC 2.0, we would have a whole lot of roads, power (overcapacity and ensuant capacity charges driving up our fiscal deficit and circular debt), and little hard cash to pay for the debt we took to set up all this physical infrastructure. Heck, even now 1.5 billion USD of stuck-up payment to Chinese IPPs under the head of circular debt are being made with immediate effect. How much of that would be due to capacity charges due to take or pay agreements? This is the extent to which we have been unable to get any concessions while accepting all demands of the other side.


----------



## CriticalThought

Pak Nationalist said:


> That's the entire point of contention. CPEC 2.0 is 3 years late already, with no signs of it on the horizon. My post was around that concern, and JCC did not take it up. Had we even achieved something substantive in this regard at the end of the recent JCC, I would not have made this thread. Without CPEC 2.0, we would have a whole lot of roads, power (overcapacity and ensuant capacity charges driving up our fiscal deficit and circular debt), and little hard cash to pay for the debt we took to set up all this physical infrastructure. Heck, even now 1.5 billion USD of stuck-up payment to Chinese IPPs under the head of circular debt are being made with immediate effect. How much of that would be due to capacity charges due to take or pay agreements? This is the extent to which we have been unable to get any concessions while accepting all demands of the other side.



It's late because of dilly dallying by Imran Khan's government. Ask him why he has created roadblocks? It is also late because of the situation in Baluchistan. Have you noticed the recent announcement regarding Karachi Coastal Development? Because your incompetent Khan and Bajwa have been unable to control the security situation, it looks like the Chinese have had to shift focus. Instead of identifying where problems originate, why are you trying to shift the blame on others?


----------



## khansaheeb

Pak Nationalist said:


> That's the entire point of contention. CPEC 2.0 is 3 years late already, with no signs of it on the horizon. My post was around that concern, and JCC did not take it up. Had we even achieved something substantive in this regard at the end of the recent JCC, I would not have made this thread. Without CPEC 2.0, we would have a whole lot of roads, power (overcapacity and ensuant capacity charges driving up our fiscal deficit and circular debt), and little hard cash to pay for the debt we took to set up all this physical infrastructure. Heck, even now 1.5 billion USD of stuck-up payment to Chinese IPPs under the head of circular debt are being made with immediate effect. How much of that would be due to capacity charges due to take or pay agreements? This is the extent to which we have been unable to get any concessions while accepting all demands of the other side.



Is that late on the CPEC clock or your clock? It may be a step at a time with humans but in economics it is decade at a time! These are colossal projects and will take colossal time. I can understand your impatience but no one said it will bring fortunes to you in your lifespan, but who knows pray to the almighty and hope for the best.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Pak Nationalist

CriticalThought said:


> It's late because of dilly dallying by Imran Khan's government. Ask him why he has created roadblocks? It is also late because of the situation in Baluchistan. Have you noticed the recent announcement regarding Karachi Coastal Development? Because your incompetent Khan and Bajwa have been unable to control the security situation, it looks like the Chinese have had to shift focus. Instead of identifying where problems originate, why are you trying to shift the blame on others?


The blame lies with the lousiest possible negotiation of the projects when CPEC was launched, and it also lies with dilly-dallying on CPEC 2.0. It also lies on the Chinese if they are looking for short-term commercial benefits rather than the larger picture and how a more prosperous Pakistan would be in their interest.


khansaheeb said:


> Is that late on the CPEC clock or your clock? It may be a step at a time with humans but in economics it is decade at a time! These are colossal projects and will take colossal time. I can understand your impatience but no one said it will bring fortunes to you in your lifespan, but who knows pray to the almighty and hope for the best.


CPEC 2.0 was to begin as soon as the generation capacity was increased to put load shedding to an end. This happened back in 2018.


----------



## khansaheeb

Pak Nationalist said:


> The blame lies with the lousiest possible negotiation of the projects when CPEC was launched, and it also lies with dilly-dallying on CPEC 2.0. It also lies on the Chinese if they are looking for short-term commercial benefits rather than the larger picture and how a more prosperous Pakistan would be in its interest.
> 
> CPEC 2.0 was to begin as soon as the generation capacity was increased to put load shedding to an end. This happened back in 2018.


Don't know where you live but load shedding still happens in Sindh/Karachi.

Reactions: Sad Sad:
1


----------



## CriticalThought

Pak Nationalist said:


> The blame lies with the lousiest possible negotiation of the projects when CPEC was launched, and it also lies with dilly-dallying on CPEC 2.0. *It also lies on the Chinese if they are looking for short-term commercial benefits rather than the larger picture and how a more prosperous Pakistan would be in its interest.*



You should read the World Bank report on IPPs in Sub-Saharan Africa. It says to the effect "Investment doesn't automatically come where there is need. Investment comes where there is a prospect of realizing returns". It is as simple as that. The Chinese factored in economic instability, political instability, and security instability. You were unable to negotiate. You were unable to lure alternate investors so you can play the two against each other. It is your own fault.

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Wow Wow:
1


----------



## HammerHead081

CPEC is so called flagship project of China's BRI, they have endless streams of money yet they are refusing to negotiate to take up any little loss (literally these losses are nothing for them). No transfer of industries. Just making complete clowns out of us, what are they even thinking?


----------



## Pak Nationalist

khansaheeb said:


> Don't know where you live but load shedding still happens in Sindh/Karachi.


Only in areas where line losses are high and recoveries are low. That happens all over the country.


----------



## CriticalThought

HammerHead081 said:


> CPEC is so called flagship project of China's BRI, they have endless streams of money yet they are refusing to negotiate to take up any little loss (literally these losses are nothing for them). No transfer of industries. Just making complete clowns out of us, what are they even thinking?



What was your Prime Minister thinking when he called CPEC a conspiracy and halted its advance? Do you know the Chinese have shared reservations about Imran Khan's closest associates because of their American ties? They have been asked to leave high level meetings because China considers them a security threat? You should be thankful China is even willing to engage with us right now. You Prime Minister is a traitor who has sabotaged CPEC.

Reactions: Haha Haha:
1 | Wow Wow:
1


----------



## Pak Nationalist

CriticalThought said:


> You should read the World Bank report on IPPs in Sub-Saharan Africa. It says to the effect "Investment doesn't automatically come where there is need. Investment comes where there is a prospect of realizing returns". It is as simple as that. The Chinese factored in economic instability, political instability, and security instability. You were unable to negotiate. You were unable to lure alternate investors so you can play the two against each other. It is your own fault.



I have noted that repeatedly in the comments above. The deals were not negotiated by the incumbents.


CriticalThought said:


> What was your Prime Minister thinking when he called CPEC a conspiracy and halted its advance? Do you know the Chinese have shared reservations about Imran Khan's closest associates because of their American ties? They have been asked to leave high level meetings because China considers them a security threat? You should be thankful China is even willing to engage with us right now. You Prime Minister is a traitor who has sabotaged CPEC.


CPEC was called a conspiracy? Where and when? Which close allies do you refer to? The Papa Jones fame Bajwa? Installing excess capacity and subjecting the country to capacity payments for years is not a national service either.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## CriticalThought

Pak Nationalist said:


> I have noted that repeatedly in the comments above. The deals were not negotiated by the incumbents.



But the incumbents must have thought about these 'ensnaring, albatross around the neck type of contracts' when they were sending off Nawaz Sharif for treatment in London, no? Imran Khan must have had a heart attack thinking about the atrocity of CPEC contracts when making the decision, no?


----------



## CriticalThought

Pak Nationalist said:


> CPEC was called a conspiracy? Where and when? Which close allies do you refer to? The Papa Jones fame Bajwa? Installing excess capacity and subjecting the country to capacity payments for years is not a national service either.



You should listen to Dr. Shahid Masood. He has repeatedly said this on his program that China has reservations about Imran Khan's closest associates. He has never shared the name, but if I were to make a wild guess, it could be Zulfi Bukhari. Dr. Masood says the associate is allowed to sit in high level meetings which have nothing to do with him.

I use the word 'conspiracy' to describe what Imran Khan, government effectively did:









The Orange Line Metro Train: Which way forward? | Opinion - Geo.tv


When will Pakistan’s first metro train be up and running? There is confusion at all levels of the project.




www.geo.tv






> Last month, the prime minister’s commerce advisor was quoted by the Financial Times as saying that the CPEC “unfairly benefits Chinese companies” and suggested that such projects could be put on hold for a year to review the terms of agreement. However, the advisor later stated that his words were taken out of context.



That excess capacity was meant for CPEC 2.0 which Imran Khan has stalled. And now people like you are mushrooming to criticize the Chinese. You sowed the seeds of the problem, and are now chest beating when the problem has fully surfaced. Shame on you.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## khansaheeb

HammerHead081 said:


> CPEC is so called flagship project of China's BRI, they have endless streams of money yet they are refusing to negotiate to take up any little loss (literally these losses are nothing for them). No transfer of industries. Just making complete clowns out of us, what are they even thinking?


It's called business and China expects Pakistan to bring it's financial house in order. Good, China is being tough, the corrupt Pakistani are still lingering onto free money and find it easy to hold the begging bowl.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Pak Nationalist

CriticalThought said:


> You should listen to Dr. Shahid Masood. He has repeatedly said this on his program that China has reservations about Imran Khan's closest associates. He has never shared the name, but if I were to make a wild guess, it could be Zulfi Bukhari. Dr. Masood says the associate is allowed to sit in high level meetings which have nothing to do with him.
> 
> I use the word 'conspiracy' to describe what Imran Khan, government effectively did:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Orange Line Metro Train: Which way forward? | Opinion - Geo.tv
> 
> 
> When will Pakistan’s first metro train be up and running? There is confusion at all levels of the project.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.geo.tv
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That excess capacity was meant for CPEC 2.0 which Imran Khan has stalled. And now people like you are mushrooming to criticize the Chinese. You sowed the seeds of the problem, and are now chest beating when the problem has fully surfaced. Shame on you.


Such a credible reference. No wonder you are coming with such fertile ideas. The male nurse SM has that effect on people. If you read my comments, I have also noted above how progress on CPEC 2.0 has stalled with the causes for that unknown. Chinese were only unhappy with one person, and they made their displeasure known publicly, who is the current industries minister/advisor. Dawood had made some controversial remarks about CPEC's industrial component before PTI came to power. Does the male nurse talk about who had Papa Jones Bajwa installed? I highly doubt he would name his paymasters. For the lack of progress on CPEC 2.0, I have not "blamed" the Chinese, and I have noted that I am ambivalent about the culprit.


CriticalThought said:


> You should listen to Dr. Shahid Masood. He has repeatedly said this on his program that China has reservations about Imran Khan's closest associates. He has never shared the name, but if I were to make a wild guess, it could be Zulfi Bukhari. Dr. Masood says the associate is allowed to sit in high level meetings which have nothing to do with him.
> 
> I use the word 'conspiracy' to describe what Imran Khan, government effectively did:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Orange Line Metro Train: Which way forward? | Opinion - Geo.tv
> 
> 
> When will Pakistan’s first metro train be up and running? There is confusion at all levels of the project.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.geo.tv
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That excess capacity was meant for CPEC 2.0 which Imran Khan has stalled. And now people like you are mushrooming to criticize the Chinese. You sowed the seeds of the problem, and are now chest beating when the problem has fully surfaced. Shame on you.


On the one hand, you heap scorn on me, on the other, give love reacts to what I said, lol. Confusing. I am discussing various scenarios under this post and picking people's minds about what they think is happening. Please go through my comments. I am mentioning many things you said (barring the conspiracy theories you seem to have internalized from the preeminent fountainhead of those in Pakistan, aka male nurse who passes himself off as a journo) and at the same time asking questions on the line of possible impatience or shortsightedness on the Chinese side. I have no absolute positions on either. This is an exercise of instigating a discussion where people discuss both possibilities and try to synthesize.


----------



## CriticalThought

Pak Nationalist said:


> Such a credible reference. No wonder you are coming with such fertile ideas. The male nurse SM has that effect on people. If you read my comments, I have also noted above how progress on CPEC 2.0 has stalled with the causes for that unknown. Chinese were only unhappy with one person, and they made their displeasure is known publicly, which was the current industries minister/advisor. He had made some controversial remarks about CPEC's industrial component before PTI came to power. Does the male nurse talk about who had Papa Jones Bajwa installed? I highly doubt he would name his paymasters. For the lack of progress on CPEC 2.0, I have not "blamed" the Chinese, and I have noted that I am ambivalent about the culprit.
> 
> On the one hand, you heap scorn on me, on the other, give love reacts to what I said, lol. Confusing. I am discussing various scenarios under this post and picking people's minds about what they think is happening. Please go through my comments. I am mentioning many things you said (barring the conspiracy theories you seem to have internalized from the preeminent fountainhead of those in Pakistan, aka male nurse who passes himself off as a journo) and at the same time asking questions on the line of possible impatience or shortsightedness on the Chinese side. I have no absolute positions on either. This is an exercise of instigating a discussion where people discuss both possibilities and try to synthesize.



So your entire counter-argument relies on calling Dr. Shahid Masood a male nurse. How pathetic.

Normal people look at emojis and interpret them as reactions to content. You on the other hand take them personally. Too much diversity can do that. If we got a CT scan your brain might have ten thousand pieces instead of two hemispheres. Keep making a fool out of yourself.

Reactions: Haha Haha:
1


----------



## Pak Nationalist

CriticalThought said:


> So your entire counter-argument relies on calling Dr. Shahid Masood a male nurse. How pathetic.
> 
> Normal people look at emojis and interpret them as reactions to content. You on the other hand take them personally. Too much diversity can do that. If we got a CT scan your brain might have ten thousand pieces instead of two hemispheres. Keep making a fool out of yourself.


Not going to engage you any further as I do not like attacking people I am arguing with in person, even if they stoop that low—peace out.


ghazi52 said:


> *$3.2 Billion Karachi Coastal Comprehensive Development Zone (KCCDZ) included under the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor framework.*
> 
> MARITIME MINISTRY INITIATES A HUGE ECONOMIC TRANSFORMATION PROJECT FOR KARACHI UNDER CPEC
> 
> A monumental decision was taken during the *10th Joint Cooperation Committee (JCC) on CPEC, held on 23rd September 2021* at Islamabad and Beijing. The two countries agreed to include Karachi Coastal Comprehensive Development Zone (KCCDZ) under the CPEC framework.
> 
> 
> KCCDZ, an initiative of the Ministry of Maritime Affairs focuses on providing Karachi with an ultra modern urban infrastructure zone, placing Karachi amongst the top port cities of the world.
> 
> In a first of its kind even for CPEC, the planned multibillion dollar mega KCCDZ project will be built on direct Chinese investment in partnership with Karachi Port Trust (KPT). The quantum of expected investment is around USD 3.5 billion.


A fishing port is to be built alongside some port berths. Other than that the information in the public domain makes it nothing more than a hyped-up real estate development project. What we need at this point is investment in the manufacturing sector to produce exportable surpluses that bridge our ever-widening trade deficit whenever economic growth picks up. CPEC 2.0 was to ensure that. How many SEZs have become operational and started becoming export hubs or are moving in that direction by now? Why have we not been able to enter the second phase of CPEC development till now? These are questions that require answers.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## CriticalThought

Pak Nationalist said:


> Not going to engage you any further as I do not like attacking people I am arguing with in person, even if they stoop that low—peace out.



I am going to call out your hypocrisy here. You can call Dr. Shahid Masood a male nurse, but when I tell you to keep making a fool out of yourself, I am attacking you?

And just so we are clear, I despise the insinuation that I gave 'love reacts' to any post. You are a pathetic, despicable, retard for using such language to describe my reaction. I use that particular emoji when I strongly agree with some content. It doesn't mean I feel any affinity towards the poster. Just as I would give the following the same emoji because this actually represents a lot of sense.



Pak Nationalist said:


> A fishing port is to be built alongside some port berths. Other than that the information in the public domain makes it nothing more than a hyped-up real estate development project. What we need at this point is investment in the manufacturing sector to produce exportable surpluses that bridge our ever-widening trade deficit whenever economic growth picks up. CPEC 2.0 was to ensure that. How many SEZs have become operational and started becoming export hubs or are moving in that direction by now? Why have we not been able to enter the second phase of CPEC development till now? These are questions that require answers.



We need to call out Imran Khan's incompetence in blocking CPEC 2.0 and approving even more infrastructure projects. And with Bajwa being completely crass about security, I shudder to think what would happen if anti-Pakistan forces again start a bloodbath in Karachi.


----------

