# Pakistani Missiles vs Indian Missiles



## Zarvan

@Aeronaut @Leader @WebMaster @nuclearpak @fatman17 @Oscar @RazPaK and others 
Quite interesting claims made in this video what you guys have to say I think Pakistan is developing Long Range Missiles may be up to 7000 KM Range

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## sardar1987

Please don't post such claims or comparison threads.......and only area where pakistan is slightly ahead is in cruise missiles and once nirbhay is launched in the year end it will be complete indian advantage


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## Srinivas

Why do Pakistan needs long range missiles of 7000 Km when you are fighting India?

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## SarthakGanguly

Probably to destroy the Indian spaceship when they it goes to the Moon again. 


Srinivas said:


> Why do Pakistan needs long range missiles of 7000 Km when you are fighting India?



The missile looks badass btw

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## oFFbEAT

The video says AGNI-I,II & III are not operational......but they are operational....

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## Icarus

Srinivas said:


> Why do Pakistan needs long range missiles of 7000 Km when you are fighting India?



It's not for India, it was initially developed for Israel but then put in cold storage because we have no quarrel with them and certainly don't want to incite one by building a weapon that's completely unnecessary. There are a handful of launch ready units for the 'When **** hits the fan' scenario but further proliferation of the platform is suspended at the moment. However, with the necessary know-how and production equipment available, Pakistan can restart the program at whatever time such a weapon is considered necessary to safeguard national interests.

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## Icarus

sardar1987 said:


> Please don't post such claims or comparison threads.......and only area where pakistan is slightly ahead is in cruise missiles and once nirbhay is launched in the year end it will be *complete indian advantage*



Whereas I agree that the Nirbhay will be a significant boost to India's arsenal of cruise missiles and will bring it up to par with Pakistan's standard, it would be foolhardy to imagine that it would suddenly grant India an edge in Cruise Missile technology. Pakistan retains a more diverse arsenal of cruise missiles and has more mature platforms to choose from. India has an unprecedented edge in supersonic cruise missile technology thanks to the Brahmos but overall, any student of DSS who has a good understanding of 'Missile Politics' will tell you that Pakistan retains a slight edge over India, even with the Nirbhay factor in mind.

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## The Deterrent

Icarus said:


> It's not for India, it was initially developed for Israel but then put in cold storage because we have no quarrel with them and certainly don't want to incite one by building a weapon that's completely unnecessary. There are a handful of launch ready units for the 'When **** hits the fan' scenario but further proliferation of the platform is suspended at the moment. However, with the necessary know-how and production equipment available, Pakistan can restart the program at whatever time such a weapon is considered necessary to safeguard national interests.



You are not serious sir, right?

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## Icarus

AhaseebA said:


> You are not serious sir, right?



Which part of my post do you find amusing?

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## sardar1987

Icarus said:


> Whereas I agree that the Nirbhay will be a significant boost to India's arsenal of cruise missiles and will bring it up to par with Pakistan's standard, it would be foolhardy to imagine that it would suddenly grant India an edge in Cruise Missile technology. Pakistan retains a more diverse arsenal of cruise missiles and has more mature platforms to choose from. India has an unprecedented edge in supersonic cruise missile technology thanks to the Brahmos but overall, any student of DSS who has a good understanding of 'Missile Politics' will tell you that Pakistan retains a slight edge over India, even with the Nirbhay factor in mind.


 What about the ballistic missiles?? And what happens when hypersonic brahmos comes into being in say 2018 or so?? AGNI 6 with mirv and marv.Dude india is spending 6 times the amount of pakistan and is poised to be better in technology similar to why china is way better than india.Rest you can keep claiming whatever u like but the fact remains.peace bro


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## The Deterrent

Icarus said:


> Which part of my post do you find amusing?



That Pakistan already has developed something like that, put in cold storage, have a handful of launch ready units.

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## sardar1987

AhaseebA said:


> That Pakistan already has developed something like that, put in cold storage, have a handful of launch ready units.



Untill and unless we see a test video all this is hogwash whether from india,pakistan or any other country and please lets all agree to be rational here


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## Icarus

sardar1987 said:


> What about the ballistic missiles?? And what happens when hypersonic brahmos comes into being in say 2018 or so?? AGNI 6 with mirv and marv.Dude india is spending 6 times the amount of pakistan and is poised to be better in technology similar to why china is way better than india.Rest you can keep claiming whatever u like but the fact remains.peace bro



I already took Barhmos into account and the above post is in reference to your post that the "Nirbhay" will be the decisive game changer. Kindly reread it and reiterate any concerns that you might have against the content.

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## Alpha1

Srinivas said:


> Why do Pakistan needs long range missiles of 7000 Km when you are fighting India?


For Nato ofcource and some say it's range is 8000 km

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## Icarus

AhaseebA said:


> That Pakistan already has developed something like that, put in cold storage, have a handful of launch ready units.



Pervez Musharraf's time. The peace process with Israel lead to the program being put into cold storage. You'd be surprised what range of programs we have in cold storage. I've even seen Pakistani built side-winders, there are about 30 test units and the program's funding was routed to Ballistic Missile program in the early 90s.

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## Alpha1

Icarus said:


> It's not for India, it was initially developed for Israel but then put in cold storage because we have no quarrel with them and certainly don't want to incite one by building a weapon that's completely unnecessary. There are a handful of launch ready units for the 'When **** hits the fan' scenario but further proliferation of the platform is suspended at the moment. However, with the necessary know-how and production equipment available, Pakistan can restart the program at whatever time such a weapon is considered necessary to safeguard national interests.


I thought Israel was in reach of our existing missiles if launched from gwadar


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## The Deterrent

Icarus said:


> Pervez Musharraf's time. The peace process with Israel lead to the program being put into cold storage. You'd be surprised what range of programs we have in cold storage. I've even seen Pakistani built side-winders, there are about 30 test units and the program's funding was routed to Ballistic Missile program in the early 90s.



But sir a few designs and drawings, some feasibility meetings are far from ready-to-launch stuff. Whatever plans of that sort were made during Musharraf's era exist no more.

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## sardar1987

Man i am talking about ballistic missiles too and pakistan is nowhere near india in that field,,,the fact remains!! Until and unless we see a test video of shaheen 3 its pointless to even talk on this topic.Yes i give credit to pakistan's babur but nirbhay is gonna have longer range and flexibility and unless pakistan really extends babur's range in say 2-3 years it will fall behind.Yes,if we get an upgraded babur 2 then its a diff story

But the point is pakistan dosen't need a cruise missile with>750 km range and i don't see it diverting precious resources just to satisfy their ego
One the other hand we badly need mirv and marv equipped agni 6 to counter china.So its not about capability but priority

And last but not the least,indian success in the space field reiterates its solid fundamentals of rocket science and i seriously think instead of developing new missiles nescom should focus on slv as WAR IR NEVER GONNA HAPPEN..NEVER

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## Icarus

AhaseebA said:


> But sir a few designs and drawings, some feasibility meetings are far from ready-to-launch stuff. Whatever plans of that sort were made during Musharraf's era exist no more.



The project was running from the 60s, it was a spin-off from the Rahbar program and had reached a very high stage of maturity. The exact details might be known to someone with NESCOM or SUPARCO.

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## sardar1987

Alpha1 said:


> For Nato ofcource and some say it's range is 8000 km


 are you serious?? for nato??


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## Icarus

sardar1987 said:


> Man i am talking about ballistic missiles too and pakistan is nowhere near india in that field,,,the fact remains!! Until and unless we see a test video of shaheen 3 its pointless to even talk on this topic.Yes i give credit to pakistan's babur but nirbhay is gonna have longer range and flexibility and unless pakistan really extends babur's range in say 2-3 years it will fall behind.Yes,if we get an upgraded babur 2 then its a diff story
> 
> But the point is pakistan dosen't need a cruise missile with>750 km range and i don't see it diverting precious resources just to satisfy their ego
> One the other hand we badly need mirv and marv equipped agni 6 to counter china.So its not about capability but priority
> 
> And last but not the least,indian success in the space field reiterates its solid fundamentals of rocket science and i seriously think instead of developing new missiles nescom should focus on slv as WAR IR NEVER GONNA HAPPEN..NEVER



Now that you bring Ballistic Missiles into the equation, the paradigm has completely changed because the strategic base and intended targets have been substituted.

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## sardar1987

Icarus said:


> Now that you bring Ballistic Missiles into the equation, the paradigm has completely changed because the strategic base and intended targets have been substituted.


 EXACTLY MY POINT

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## The Deterrent

Icarus said:


> The project was running from the 60s, it was a spin-off from the Rahbar program and had reached a very high stage of maturity. The exact details might be known to someone with NESCOM or SUPARCO.



Then it must have been cancelled, as the initial design would've been liquid fueled (no longer preferred) and SUPARCO is not involved in developing BMs except for Abdali.

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## Alpha1

sardar1987 said:


> are you serious?? for nato??


Can you name me any other threat to pakistan besides India and Israel? >NATO


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## Icarus

AhaseebA said:


> Then it must have been cancelled, as the initial design would've been liquid fueled (no longer preferred) and SUPARCO is not involved in developing BMs except for Abdali.



It was long divorced from the Rahbar program as it itself did not make it into the 70s. This program was active until the early 2000s, in the meantime I am very sure it would have made the transition to a solid fuel, possibly multi-stage design.



Alpha1 said:


> Can you name me any other threat to pakistan besides India and Israel? >NATO



Nato is a collection of countries, there's no way you can attack all at once. NATO isn't a threat for Pakistan either. It's the political front where we are most vulnerable, militarily, we are adequately secure.

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## Zarvan

Icarus said:


> It's not for India, it was initially developed for Israel but then put in cold storage because we have no quarrel with them and certainly don't want to incite one by building a weapon that's completely unnecessary. There are a handful of launch ready units for the 'When **** hits the fan' scenario but further proliferation of the platform is suspended at the moment. However, with the necessary know-how and production equipment available, Pakistan can restart the program at whatever time such a weapon is considered necessary to safeguard national interests.



Sir I am pretty sure we are still working on Long Range Missiles may be have developed one but would not test at until USA is in Afghanistan and we are getting weapons from them because their is no need of it yet and as long as Israel is concerned we have quarrel with from day one Sir since day one we are after each other they are the major force behind attacks from Afghanistan on us along with RAW the attempted to attack our nuclear plants twice and above all they are after Makkah and Madinah sooner or later they would attack them or try to do it I wouldn't be surprised if Pakistan tests it and also for sending satellites we can get idea of making them at least some of it if we have long range Missiles

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## HariPrasad

Icarus said:


> Whereas I agree that the Nirbhay will be a significant boost to India's arsenal of cruise missiles and will bring it up to par with Pakistan's standard, it would be foolhardy to imagine that it would suddenly grant India an edge in Cruise Missile technology. Pakistan retains a more diverse arsenal of cruise missiles and has more mature platforms to choose from. India has an unprecedented edge in supersonic cruise missile technology thanks to the Brahmos but overall, any student of DSS who has a good understanding of 'Missile Politics' will tell you that Pakistan retains a slight edge over India, even with the Nirbhay factor in mind.



Are you Joking? India is Far ahead of most of the country in Cruise missile technology. Nirbhay will put India on the top of all countries having Cruz missile technology. Pakistan's cruise missiles are No where nears that of India.


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## Icarus

HariPrasad said:


> Are you Joking? *India is Far ahead of most of the country in Cruise missile technology*. Nirbhay will put India on the top of all countries having Cruz missile technology. Pakistan's cruise missiles are No where nears that of India.



How did you come to that conclusion?

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## HariPrasad

Brahmos the only one of its kind with Mach 2.8 speed with submeter CEP with double S manevour performing capabilty with ability to hit ship just 1 meter above sea surface and lot more such as steep dive etc etc.......

Hypersonic Brahmos in making with Mach 7.5 speed. Sucessfully lab tested.

Shaurya, K15, K 5 No match.

Nirbhay has similar capabilities as Tomahok. 

For further Infomation, educate yourself from Google.


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## Icarus

HariPrasad said:


> Brahmos the only one of its kind with Mach 2.8 speed with submeter CEP with double S manevour performing capabilty with ability to hit ship just 1 meter above sea surface and lot more such as steep dive etc etc.......
> 
> Shaurya, K15, K 5 No match.
> 
> Nirbhay has similar capabilities as Tomahok.
> 
> For further Infomation, educate yourself from Google.



If you took the time to actually read my posts, you would know that I already acknowledged the Brohmos's superiority but the fact remains that: 

1) It is still not a widely deployed platform.
2) Pakistan has a much more diverse range of cruise missiles.
3) Pakistani platforms have had more time to mature and are already deployed in large numbers, ie are combat ready.
4) Nirbhay has similar performance parameters as Tomahawk but so does Babur.

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## Kompromat

Icarus said:


> How did you come to that conclusion?



Gospel Truth.



HariPrasad said:


> Brahmos the only one of its kind with Mach 2.8 speed with submeter CEP with double S manevour performing capabilty with ability to hit ship just 1 meter above sea surface and lot more such as steep dive etc etc.......



Thats Indian propaganda, its not 'one of a kind'. There are other systems, a lot better than Brahmos.



> Hypersonic Brahmos in making with Mach 7.5 speed. Sucessfully lab tested.



Show lab data or it doesn't exist.



> Shaurya



Paper missile



> K15



Under development.



> K 5 No match.



Ofcourse not!



> Nirbhay has similar capabilities as Tomahok


. 

Is that why it failed in the first test?



> For further Infomation, educate yourself from Google.



Same is prescribed for you.

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## Yzd Khalifa

@Aeronaut 

I won't rule out the Indian media for being a propaganda machine, but sometimes they say things about Pakistan that may raise a lot of concerns to them.

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## Kompromat

Yzd Khalifa said:


> @Aeronaut
> 
> I won't rule out the Indian media for being a propaganda machine, but sometimes they say things about Pakistan that may raise a lot of concerns to them.



They are just warmongering. We have them covered already, Pakistani ICBM, given that our economic woes are solved will appear first as an SLV. That will be a gift to our friends.

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## HariPrasad

Icarus said:


> If you took the time to actually read my posts, you would know that I already acknowledged the Brohmos's superiority but the fact remains that:
> 
> 1) It is still not a widely deployed platform.
> 2) Pakistan has a much more diverse range of cruise missiles.
> 3) Pakistani platforms have had more time to mature and are already deployed in large numbers, ie are combat ready.
> 4) Nirbhay has similar performance parameters as Tomahawk but so does Babur.



Your Points
1) Prove it. It is otherwise. It is deployed in anti land target role, anti ship role, against mountain target in steep dive mode. Submarine launch version successfully tested. Air launch version is in final stage of test. It is the most versatile missile in in the world.
2) Prove it. It is otherwise. 
3) What is important is technology development pace. China was far ahead of India in almost all the sphere of missile technology. We surpass them in all areas of missile technology in last 5 years.
4) No babur do not have. e.g. Hovering over target until target is identified for attack. Nirbhay is planned to attack the target and come back. Babur has failed to evolved in anti ship role in spite of it being is in service for a long time. (I am not asking for submarine launch version as ship launch version is not even ready?)


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## HariPrasad

Aeronaut said:


> Gospel Truth.
> 
> 
> 
> Thats Indian propaganda, its not 'one of a kind'. There are other systems, a lot better than Brahmos.
> 
> 
> 
> Show lab data or it doesn't exist.
> 
> 
> 
> Paper missile
> 
> 
> 
> Under development.
> 
> 
> 
> Ofcourse not!
> 
> .
> 
> Is that why it failed in the first test?
> 
> 
> 
> Same is prescribed for you.



Gospel Truth.>>>> True about Pakistani missile.



Thats Indian propaganda, its not 'one of a kind'. There are other systems, a lot better than Brahmos.>>> You not only fail to prove it but you even failed to name it. You loose. 



Show lab data or it doesn't exist.>>>> Pl follow the link. I have to do all this hard work for a person who have remained ignorant even after posting more than 20000 post. Pl follow the link.

Brahmos Aerospace to Develop First Prototype of Brahmos 2 Hypersonic Missile By 2017



Paper missile>>>> Pl follow the link.

Shaurya (missile) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Under development.>>>>> Pl follow the link and educate yourself. (Of course if you want)

India successfully test-fires underwater missile - The Hindu 





Ofcourse not!>>>> I take it positively. Thanks!!!!!!!

. 

Is that why it failed in the first test?>>>> Yes we do not do paint job so some of them is bound to fail. That is why it is developmental trial. I hope you understand it.



Same is prescribed for you.[/QUOTE]>>> I posted the links as the proofs of how educated I am. What about you?

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## navtrek

Zarvan said:


> @Aeronaut @Leader @WebMaster @nuclearpak @fatman17 @Oscar @RazPaK and others
> Quite interesting claims made in this video what you guys have to say I think Pakistan is developing Long Range Missiles may be up to 7000 KM Range



The video is outdated:

Here are some updates on Indian missiles:

1. *Prithvi II* Inducted into the Strategic Forces Command (SFC) in 2003

2.* Prithvi III* As of 2013, this missile has not been deployed due to logistical deficiencies. It requires explosive liquid fuel which is difficult to store; and it cannot be launched vertically which forces all missiles to be stored on the surface of the ship. Vertically launched missiles can be stored internally in the hull of a ship. *This deficiency also means that it will not be used in submarines or underwater systems.*

3. Agni I, Agni II and Agni III are inducted and operational.

4. Agni IV and Agni V are under testing with Agni VI under development.

5. K 15 Sagarika * K-15/B-05* in series production. Land-based missile awaiting clearance. Tests completed.

6. BrahMos:

Surface-launched, Block I

Ship-launched, anti-ship variant (operational)
Ship-launched, land-attack variant (operational)
Land-launched, land-attack variant (operational)
Land-launched, anti-ship variant (In induction, tested on 10 December 2010)

Surface-launched, upgraded variants

BrahMos Block II land-attack variant (Operational)
BrahMos Block III land-variant (being inducted)
Anti-aircraft carrier variant (tested in March 2012) - the missile gained the capability to 
attack aircraft carriers using the supersonic vertical dive variant of the missile that could 
travel up to 290 km.

Air-launched

Air-launched, anti-ship variant (under development, expected completion in 2012)
Air-launched, land-attack variant (under development, expected completion in 2012)
Air-launched, miniaturised variant (under development)

Submarine-launched

Submarine-launched, anti-ship variant - Tested successfully for the first time from a submerged pontoon on 20 March 2013.
Submarine-launched, land-attack variant (under development, expected completion in 2011)

Here is an update to the outdated information.

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## sardar1987

This is height of bullshit.At least we have tested the missiles and the videos are available,,,,can it be said of ur mythical shaheen 3 or babur 2(upgraded whatever)....u ppl have no slbm,we have had 14 continous successful launches of k-15 and they are in production.You have no plans for any new missile,,,,,no official confirmation exists while we have confirmation of everything we are saying

Whether success or failure its for the world to see.......now tell me who is doing propaganda??

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## SarthakGanguly

Chinese and North Korean Missiles have been extensively tested. Just a change of name and paint does not require new tests. 


sardar1987 said:


> This is height of bullshit.At least we have tested the missiles and the videos are available,,,,can it be said of ur mythical shaheen 3 or babur 2(upgraded whatever)....u ppl have no slbm,we have had 14 continous successful launches of k-15 and they are in production.You have no plans for any new missile,,,,,no official confirmation exists while we have confirmation of everything we are saying
> 
> Whether success or failure its for the world to see.......now tell me who is doing propaganda??


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## veekysingh

Icarus said:


> Whereas I agree that the Nirbhay will be a significant boost to India's arsenal of cruise missiles and will bring it up to par with Pakistan's standard, it would be foolhardy to imagine that it would suddenly grant India an edge in Cruise Missile technology. Pakistan retains a more diverse arsenal of cruise missiles and has more mature platforms to choose from. India has an unprecedented edge in supersonic cruise missile technology thanks to the Brahmos but overall, any student of DSS who has a good understanding of 'Missile Politics' will tell you that Pakistan retains a slight edge over India, even with the Nirbhay factor in mind.


Can u please bother to explain your statement ?i would love to hear how Pakistan have upper hand in CM OR BM capability ? and just proven facts only pls. Talking fan boy things doesn't look good for a chairman.


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## HariPrasad

SarthakGanguly said:


> Chinese and North Korean Missiles have been extensively tested. Just a change of name and paint does not require new tests.



Source Pl???


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## Hulk

@Indians do not bring missiles which are not operational and compare with operational ones. I will not consider anything which is not even successfully tested.

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## Arsalan

sardar1987 said:


> What about the ballistic missiles?? And what happens when hypersonic brahmos comes into being in say 2018 or so?? AGNI 6 with mirv and marv.Dude india is spending 6 times the amount of pakistan and is poised to be better in technology similar to why china is way better than india.Rest you can keep claiming whatever u like but the fact remains.peace bro



Beyond AGNI-II it is not our concern. As for MIRV, Pakistan is also reported to be developing one, infact, it was also said that the Shaheen-1A testes were part of MIRV integration. These things are kept under covers here so cant be sure. Brahmos and Nibrah have been taken into account by [MENTION] Icarus[/MENTION] and he have also made is point regarding the diversity of platforms available with Pakistan!

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## gslv mk3

@Icarus

Dont worry about Indian cruise missiles ,India will test scramjet powered supersonic LRCM with 600+ km range by 2014,which makes our Cruise missile technology much better.and we can make turbojets,scramjets and Ramjet engines.
 @Aeronaut leave Brahmos 2,hypersonic vehicle HSTDV scramjet was tested back in 2011& you think Shaurya is still on paper??



Aeronaut said:


> They are just warmongering. We have them covered already, Pakistani ICBM, given that our economic woes are solved will appear first as an SLV. That will be a gift to our friends.



I heard that SLV project is on hold.


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## Hyperion

Well it will be marketed as an SLV....... most key components along with supporting work already finished 4 years back.......



Aeronaut said:


> They are just warmongering. We have them covered already, Pakistani ICBM, given that our economic woes are solved will appear first as an SLV. That will be a gift to our friends.

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## Hyperion

Btw, one thing baffles me.... why would we ever need an ICBM for India????? It's like India hitting BD with AGNI V.....


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## Armstrong

Hyperion said:


> Well it will be marketed as an SLV....... most key components along with supporting work already finished 4 years back.......



Sir aaap ko kaiseee pataaa ?  

Yeh Pakistani ka eik Strategic Weapon haiii.....aaaap kei Cousin ki Pajero ki baaat nahin kar raheiii ke sariii khabaaar kisssi ko pataaa hooo na hooo aaap ko pehleii pataaa chal jatiii haiii !

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## Hyperion

Happened way back........... 



AhaseebA said:


> That Pakistan already has developed something like that, put in cold storage, have a handful of launch ready units.



Ab dekh lo..... always reporting first for you benefit....... today I'm in a giving mood..... ask what you wish! 



Armstrong said:


> Sir aaap ko kaiseee pataaa ?
> 
> Yeh Pakistani ka eik Strategic Weapon haiii.....aaaap kei Cousin ki Pajero ki baaat nahin kar raheiii ke sariii khabaaar kisssi ko pataaa hooo na hooo aaap ko pehleii pataaa chal jatiii haiii !

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## The Deterrent

Hyperion said:


> Happened way back...........



I'm didn't deny that it didn't happen at any level back then. What I'm saying is that developing very few components, something short of a prototype is nothing close to having complete, reliable, "launch ready" systems.

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## Kompromat

ICBM for Pakistan is just learning from Israel

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## Hyperion

No... a complete system "alpha" ..... constructed and then decommissioned...... and it wasn't just 7,000 KM........



AhaseebA said:


> I'm didn't deny that it didn't happen at any level back then. What I'm saying is that developing very few components, something short of a prototype is nothing close to having complete, reliable, "launch ready" systems.


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## Armstrong

Hyperion said:


> Ab dekh lo..... always reporting first for you benefit....... today I'm in a giving mood..... ask what you wish!



Don't mind if I do ! 

(i) Can we manufacture a Civil Nuclear Power Plant solo ?  

(ii) Can we manufacture a BVR AA missile perhaps a 70s or 80s era ones ? 

(iii) Hows the family ?

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## Hyperion

i) Simple answer: No.... nothing that would be significant anyways.... Complex answer: Design yes. Make 100% subcomponents: No, feasible in next 5 years: Yes.
ii) No.
iii) Family is all well... wife back to school, I'm alone at the moment.....  



Armstrong said:


> Don't mind if I do !
> 
> (i) Can we manufacture a Civil Nuclear Power Plant solo ?
> 
> (ii) Can we manufacture a BVR AA missile perhaps a 70s or 80s era ones ?
> 
> (iii) Hows the family ?

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## Kompromat

ICBM for Pakistan is just learning from Israel


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## Armstrong

Hyperion said:


> i) Simple answer: No.... nothing that would be significant anyways.... Complex answer: Design yes. Make 100% subcomponents: No, feasible in next 5 years: Yes.
> ii) No.
> iii) Family is all well... wife back to school, I'm alone at the moment.....



Sir bandaaa bhai ka dil rakhneii kei liyee jhoooot hi booool deitaa haiii !

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## Hyperion

Dude no one can.... even India can't manufacture 30% by themselves..... now if we have access to NSG, then we can build the same reactors within a decade...... it's about access to key components..... India has access and we don't...... at least for the moment...... but doesn't matter, we are really good and our nuclear engineering basics are very strong.



Armstrong said:


> Sir bandaaa bhai ka dil rakhneii kei liyee jhoooot hi booool deitaa haiii !

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## kurup

Hyperion said:


> Dude no one can.... *even India can't manufacture 30% by themselves*..... now if we have access to NSG, then we can build the same reactors within a decade...... it's about access to key components..... India has access and we don't...... at least for the moment...... but doesn't matter, we are really good and our nuclear engineering basics are very strong.



So what about IPHWR-220 and IPHWR-540 .

Do we get the key components from outside ???

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## The Deterrent

Hyperion said:


> No... a complete system "alpha" ..... constructed and then decommissioned...... and it wasn't just 7,000 KM........



Still, without a physical flight test, considering a weapon like that for operational use would be using the team of engineers who designed it for launching it, with little guarantee for it being successful, not to mention if it survives a preemptive strike.

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## Shadow_Hunter

AhaseebA said:


> Still, without a physical flight test, considering a weapon like that for operational use would be using the team of engineers who designed it for launching it, with little guarantee for it being successful, not to mention if it survives a preemptive strike.



doesn't pakistan tests its newer systems using older missile tests?


----------



## Hyperion

What constitutes key components? Even something as mundane as a flame retardant thermoplastic compounds are considered as "key" components in such a venture, leave the cutting edge electronics which form the basics of a nuclear reactor. Yes, you do. All of it. Don't ever think that designing a concept and then finishing it with 54,578 imported components and then slapping a "made in India" label qualifies as an indigenous venture, far from it.

You have access, we don't. Simple as that. The day we get the access, it will be fair game to compare your supposed achievements with ours.



kurup said:


> So what about IPHWR-220 and IPHWR-540 .
> 
> Do we get the key components from outside ???

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## The Deterrent

Shadow_Hunter said:


> doesn't pakistan tests its newer systems using older missile tests?



Pakistan does. But like, for example, you cannot declare Agni-V to be reliable even though it uses technologies (composite motor design, guidance system, ReV) same as Agni-IV. So it is necessary to flight test each and every new system.

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## kurup

Hyperion said:


> What constitutes key components? Even something as mundane as a flame retardant thermoplastic compounds are considered as "key" components in such a venture, leave the cutting edge electronics which form the basics of a nuclear reactor. Yes, you do. All of it. Don't ever think that designing a concept and then finishing it with 54,578 imported components and then slapping a "made in India" label qualifies as an indigenous venture, far from it.
> 
> *You have access, we don't.* Simple as that. The day we get the access, it will be fair game to compare your supposed achievements with ours.



Are you saying we had access to foreign technology even with NSG and IAEA against us untill the 123 deal and subsequent arrangements were made with them ?????

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## Hyperion

Yups, you were buying and they were turning a blind eye..... and we were buying and getting caught, left right and center! 



kurup said:


> Are you saying we had access to foreign technology even with NSG and IAEA against us untill the 123 deal and subsequent arrangements were made with them ?????



Dude, this for one isn't that complex of a task that you think.... same engineers are working on related projects and they have been making incremental adjustments to this project as well... it wasn't just shelved to oblivion..... 



AhaseebA said:


> Still, without a physical flight test, considering a weapon like that for operational use would be using the team of engineers who designed it for launching it, with little guarantee for it being successful, not to mention if it survives a preemptive strike.

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## Developereo

AhaseebA said:


> Still, without a physical flight test, considering a weapon like that for operational use would be using the team of engineers who designed it for launching it, with little guarantee for it being successful, not to mention if it survives a preemptive strike.



I agree.

We need to stop being so patriotic and use common sense.

How can we declare a missile to be operational without actually flight testing it?

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## [Bregs]

All missiles are good as long as they act as strong deterrent and not used


----------



## Dr. Strangelove

and we are still discussing hypothetical ICBMs 


keep it up


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## RAMPAGE

Zarvan said:


> @Aeronaut @Leader @WebMaster @nuclearpak @fatman17 @Oscar @RazPaK and others
> Quite interesting claims made in this video what you guys have to say I think Pakistan is developing Long Range Missiles may be up to 7000 KM Range


yara my ndc source told me that the only long range missile NDC is working on is Shaheen 3 and it's probably coming with mirv warheads !!!

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## HRK

Hyperion said:


> No... a complete system *"alpha"* ..... constructed and then decommissioned...... and it wasn't just 7,000 KM........



@Hyperion was it something similar to shaheen 1*"A"*, as per CRS Report for Congress dated March 19, 2013 (pg#11) 



> Shaheen-1A as an &#8220;Intermediate Range Ballistic Missile,&#8221; suggesting that the *missile&#8217;s range could be at least 3,000 kilometers*.
> 
> http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/nuke/RL34248.pdf


----------



## truthlover

HariPrasad said:


> Are you Joking? India is Far ahead of most of the country in Cruise missile technology. Nirbhay will put India on the top of all countries having Cruz missile technology. Pakistan's cruise missiles are No where nears that of India.



LOL, here comes another Stinky Malnutritioned Hindu from his slum and talking big.


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## HariPrasad

truthlover said:


> LOL, here comes another Stinky Malnutritioned Hindu from his slum and talking big.



A typical Pakistani . When they can not prove their point, they start personal attack. Why don't you prove me wrong you false lover.

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## truthlover

HariPrasad said:


> A typical Pakistani . When they can not prove their point, they start personal attack. Why don't you prove me wrong you false lover.



You just said "*india has the worlds best cruise missile technology* and Pakistan stands nowhere close to it " Where are the developed nations like usa and russia in cruise missile technology ? Ah i guess they stole cruise technology from you in 1950,s))First prove your hilarious BS you are posting here


----------



## gslv mk3

truthlover said:


> You just said "*india has the worlds best cruise missile technology* and Pakistan stands nowhere close to it " Where are the developed nations like usa and russia in cruise missile technology ? Ah i guess they stole cruise technology from you in 1950,s))First prove your hilarious BS you are posting here



India will have far better CMs than you,ever heard of Indian Ramjet Powered Supersonic LRCM project??


----------



## HariPrasad

truthlover said:


> You just said "*india has the worlds best cruise missile technology* and Pakistan stands nowhere close to it " Where are the developed nations like usa and russia in cruise missile technology ? Ah i guess they stole cruise technology from you in 1950,s))First prove your hilarious BS you are posting here



1) Brahmos
2) Nirbhay
3) Shaurya
4) K 15

Tel me which other country has Hypersonic, Subsonic, supersonic cruise missile in its arsenal.


----------



## truthlover

gslv mk3 said:


> India will have far better CMs than you,ever heard of Indian Ramjet Powered Supersonic LRCM project??





HariPrasad said:


> 1) Brahmos
> 2) Nirbhay
> 3) Shaurya
> 4) K 15
> 
> Tel me which other country has Hypersonic, Subsonic, supersonic cruise missile in its arsenal.



Both of you have not attained your puberty yet)
"India has the worlds best cruise missile technology" This explains everything 
EDIT:
Here is another proof of your worlds best cruise missile technology 
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/nirbhay-strays-from-flight-path-aborted/article4500527.ece


----------



## DrSomnath999

Icarus said:


> Whereas I agree that the Nirbhay will be a significant boost to India's arsenal of cruise missiles and will bring it up to par with Pakistan's standard, it would be foolhardy to imagine that it would suddenly grant India an edge in Cruise Missile technology*. Pakistan retains a more diverse arsenal of cruise missiles and has more mature platforms to choose from. *India has an unprecedented edge in supersonic cruise missile technology thanks to the Brahmos* but overall, any student of DSS who has a good understanding of 'Missile Politics' will tell you that Pakistan retains a slight edge over India, even with the Nirbhay factor in mind.*



Well i find out those part really amusing ???

a country like india which would have all types of cruise missile 
starting from subsonic to hypersonic cruise missile would not have an edge hmm !!

*CHEERS*



HariPrasad said:


> 1) Brahmos
> 2) Nirbhay
> 3) Shaurya
> 4) K 15
> 
> Tel me which other country has Hypersonic, Subsonic, supersonic cruise missile in its arsenal.



shaurya is a quasi ballistic missile not proper cruise missile
*CHEERS*


----------



## Dazzler

DrSomnath999 said:


> Well i find out those part really amusing ???
> 
> a country like india which would have all types of cruise missile
> starting from subsonic to hypersonic cruise missile would not have an edge hmm !!
> 
> *CHEERS*
> 
> 
> 
> shaurya is a quasi ballistic missile not proper cruise missile
> *CHEERS*



last i heard your nirbhay was a "partial" success 

u see mate there is world of difference between a handful of tests and induction,, tell me how many of ur missiles are inducted as of today? I can tell how many of ours are in service.



RAMPAGE said:


> yara my ndc source told me that the only long range missile NDC is working on is Shaheen 3 and it's probably coming with mirv warheads !!!



buddy, if the need arises, even Shaheen 2 can be MIRVED

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## RAMPAGE

Dazzler said:


> last i heard your nirbhay was a "partial" success
> 
> u see mate there is world of difference between a handful of tests and induction,, tell me how many of ur missiles are inducted as of today? I can tell how many of ours are in service.
> 
> 
> 
> buddy, if the need arises, even Shaheen 2 can be MIRVED


yara any update on the NDC's SAM development ???

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## Dazzler

RAMPAGE said:


> yara any update on the NDC's SAM development ???



nope, either they have shelved it or are tight lipped on it.

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## DrSomnath999

Dazzler said:


> last i heard your nirbhay was a *"partial" success *
> 
> u see mate there is world of difference between a handful of tests and induction,, tell me how many of* ur missiles are inducted as of today? *I can tell how many of ours are in service.



GEEZZ!!

whats the big deal on those *partial sucess tests* i just cant understand

the same thing was said about brahmos when it did deviated on it's mark during testing but what happened next , in later stages 
of testing it did hit the bull'eye & is now inducted & ready to be deployed in border anytime

exactly the same thing was said about akash when it failed during evaluations but what happened next i, in later stages it was again tested succesfully & inducted .

It's a matter of time only you would see from partial sucess to succesful induction & god forbids successful delivery to it's appropiate targets 



*CHEERS*


----------



## xyxmt

abbey choro yeh chutyapa, no wo kabhi larain gye na hamay pata chaley ga kis ka missile kesa hay


----------



## Dazzler

DrSomnath999 said:


> GEEZZ!!
> 
> whats the big deal on those *partial sucess tests* i just cant understand
> 
> the same thing was said about brahmos when it did deviated on it's mark during testing but what happened next , in later stages
> of testing it did hit the bull'eye & is now inducted & ready to be deployed in border anytime
> 
> exactly the same thing was said about akash when it failed during evaluations but what happened next i, in later stages it was again tested succesfully & inducted .
> 
> It's a matter of time only you would see from partial sucess to succesful induction & god forbids successful delivery to it's appropiate targets
> 
> 
> 
> *CHEERS*



didnt answer my question..


----------



## MilSpec

Dazzler said:


> didnt answer my question..



Well there is a difference, Indian missile tests are transparent most of the times, and thus subject to scrutiny.... And yes making fun of Indian glitches in indian projects and scutinizing them from all over the world adds to pressure and does a great service to the nation. 

Pakistani projects are classified and most of their test work remains under wraps, thus their final successful projects get documented to boost morale. 

These are two completely different approaches used by two governments and thus yeild different results. 

Now coming back to the subject of the Nirbhay missile, it was a failed test. But being a Test engineer and later test manager for series of complex projects for last 4 years I can tell you this, for every TRV project, you need to revisit the data and analyse the mode of failure which forms the back bone of your root cause analysis, then through DFMEA and PFMEA process you begin the cycle of redesign and re-test. 

Did Nirbhay fail, yes it did, Does it mean India wont be able to contain the issue and re establish the product, absolutely not. People who would like to Lol can do it at thier own risks.

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## Water Car Engineer

> Under development.




K-15 is operational. It has been tested 15 some times only thing that needs to be done is to fire it in Arihant's sea trials soon.



> Paper missile




How so? It's already in production



Dazzler said:


> last i heard your nirbhay was a "partial" success



You can laugh all you want, but Agni 3 and 4 wasnt a complete success the first go. Afterwards, both missiles were successful each time they were fired.


----------



## Dazzler

Water Car Engineer said:


> K-15 is operational. It has been tested 15 some times only thing that needs to be done is to fire it in Arihant's sea trials soon.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How so? It's already in production
> 
> 
> 
> You can laugh all you want, but Agni 3 and 4 wasnt a complete success the first go. Afterwards, both missiles were successful each time they were fired.



k-15 is not an Indian missile..


----------



## Alfa-Fighter

Dazzler said:


> k-15 is not an Indian missile..


kool , so you make K-15 and supplied to india? Link and source to backup your claims .

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## DrSomnath999

Dazzler said:


> didnt answer my question..



what was your question BTW 



*CHEERS*


----------



## @nline

Long Live Pakistan!


----------



## acetophenol

Dazzler said:


> k-15 is not an Indian missile..



Oh ****,you found it!!


----------



## Dazzler

Alfa-Fighter said:


> kool , so you make K-15 and supplied to india? Link and source to backup your claims .



Russkies do that service for u

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## Dazzler

@jaiind

Post reported, avoid ur nonsense next time. This maybe allowed on ur fantasy forums but not here. 

Thanks


----------



## Dazzler

jaiind said:


> what is there wrong in that post mate ?? you agree or disagree that was obvious true..... so you stop burning



reported again


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## Hyperion

Really - how come? 

We have been hearing all this news for months at end that the suppa duppa indigenous missile is gonna whoop our arses....... 



Dazzler said:


> k-15 is not an Indian missile..

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## Jako

Hyperion said:


> Really - how come?
> 
> We have been hearing all this news for months at end that the suppa duppa indigenous missile is gonna whoop our arses.......


Because the THINK TANK says so,if that counts.


----------



## MrShabi2010

You made my whole week with this thread. Love you Pakistani :* Pakistan Zindabad <3


----------



## PoKeMon

Icarus said:


> Which part of my post do you find amusing?



From where did you get this ready to shoot missile?

AFAIK militarizes dont deploy untested missiles. Its quite amusing how blatantly you claim to have a missile in range of 7000K.


----------



## Water Car Engineer

Dazzler said:


> Russkies do that service for u



Yeah, if that makes you feel better inside. 

K-4 is about launch soon too, hope you **** your pants a lil, then cool your self off by saying it's Russian.

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## Dazzler

Water Car Engineer said:


> Yeah, if that makes you feel better inside.
> 
> K-4 is about launch soon too, hope you **** your pants a lil, then cool your self off by saying it's Russian.



not interested in offtopic rants..


----------



## MilSpec

Dazzler said:


> not interested in offtopic rants..



It will be more suitable for individuals with Think tank credential to probably refrain from unsubstantiated claims when it comes to technology threads.


----------



## k&#7779;am&#257;

I think its the roundness of the missile !! U know Both of them fly too !!


----------



## nomi007

did we we (pakistan) ever use Laser-guided bomb or Laser-guided missiles ?


----------



## bandit

sandy_3126 said:


> good god, you are really going to imply a that shaurya a two stage, 6.8 ton missile is derivative of a single stage missile that weighs half of it.... what gave it away, pointy tip and fire spouting at the rear end???
> 
> 
> Now being a "Think Tank", please show the indicators of any commonality, please do educate us...



I have noticed here that people who _claim _insider knowledge are made think tanks, since they claim above average knowledge of systems.

If Pakistan army is half as professional as the Indian army, (which I am sure they are), it cannot let insider knowledge get to a bunch of showboys.

I'd rather take these titles and insider knowledge with dollops of salt...


----------



## SQ8

bandit said:


> I have noticed here that people who _claim _insider knowledge are made think tanks, since they claim above average knowledge of systems.
> 
> If Pakistan army is half as professional as the Indian army, (which I am sure they are), it cannot let insider knowledge get to a bunch of showboys.
> 
> I'd rather take these titles and insider knowledge with dollops of salt...



This is usually verified. Moreover, leave that distinction to us. Sandy is an excellent example of how we select people so you are insulting him as well. Suggest you stick to the topic and refute posts.


Now, the argument was on the lineage of Indian missiles vs Pakistanis Missiles. 
Lets put it this way, the Ghauri series is clearly the Nodong; first painted and fired as it is off ships coming in from North Korea and later improved with home made guidance systems along with smaller engine improvements.

The Shaheen series is modified form of existing blueprints and apart from aerodynamics has less in Common with other missiles than thought. Essentially the whole lineup is a mix of existing designs heavily modified for requirements or local derivations of that basic design. It is hard to deny that the Babur looks a lot like the Tomahawk but whats inside it has little to do with the BGM-109.

The first Indian missiles by contrast were attempts to emulate Russian designs.. the Prithvi does look like a basic rocket design but at the end limited by the origins of its engine which are reportedly based on the Sa-2. 
The Agni-I it might be argued as a copy of a Russian or Israeli missile but that it just conjecture, one could say that the Brahmos is Russian but then it is based on the P-800 Oniks so it does have a lot of Russian input.

Essentially the reason behind this is that India's closest partner in Russia was also the most monitored by the MCTR protocols and hence could only provide technology components and not missiles lest it be accused of violating these restrictions. Otherwise all Indian missiles would be simple Russian ones since any country would find it a lot easier to invest 100 and get 4 excellent missile systems rather than spend 1000 and get 5 untried prototypes. Further corroboration of the desperation facing Indian scientists during the 90's can be taken from accounts of Pakistani and Indian "_delegations_" meeting in the same drawing rooms of "_fixers_" that provide "_consultancy_" and "_procurement_" services in the black market in places like Dubai. 

Which is why till recently India was behind in _*Deployed*_ Missile tech as compared to Pakistan. However, as I have posted here a while back the reason is for the different approaches taken in missile development by the two parties due to the different environment available to them. One had access to entire missile systems if they wished(which were sophisticated in propulsion but not in guidance), while the other had access to various technologies but was dogged both by bureaucratic tape and R&D failures.

Compare the two philosophies to baking cake. One decides to learn how to make cake with eggs, and flour and so on. In that process, they get it right 2 times and ten times wrong. The other uses a cake mix and only changes the flavour it puts in and icing. 
The first one does not have such easy access to cake mix but better ingredients.. the latter has ok cake mix but better access to the rest. So for the initial while, the second one will make better tasting cake while the first one learns how to make the batter in the first place. It is also cheaper to get readymade cake mix than doing it from scratch.

At some point, one has become the master of cake mixes and has even learnt how to do basic batter. While the other has eventually mastered the entire batter process. Essentially , both can make good cake. But the cake mix guy has to look for cake mixes he can adapt since his batter skills arent all that good. The cake batter guy however, is no longer dependant on anyone to improve his batter and even with help does 50% of the task himself. So while in the past the cake mix guy would easily edge ahead by improvise and adapt cake mixes.. he is limited by them. The cake batter guy will have his road open to make any sort of cake he wants.. since he at least has better idea of the batter.

Bad example, but I cant find my earlier detailed post on the subject so this will have to do.

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## Dillinger

Oscar said:


> This is usually verified. Moreover, leave that distinction to us. Sandy is an excellent example of how we select people so you are insulting him as well. Suggest you stick to the topic and refute posts.
> 
> 
> Now, the argument was on the lineage of Indian missiles vs Pakistanis Missiles.
> Lets put it this way, the Ghauri series is clearly the Nodong; first painted and fired as it is off ships coming in from North Korea and later improved with home made guidance systems along with smaller engine improvements.
> 
> The Shaheen series is modified form of existing blueprints and apart from aerodynamics has less in Common with other missiles than thought. Essentially the whole lineup is a mix of existing designs heavily modified for requirements or local derivations of that basic design. It is hard to deny that the Babur looks a lot like the Tomahawk but whats inside it has little to do with the BGM-109.
> 
> The first Indian missiles by contrast were attempts to emulate Russian designs.. the Prithvi does look like a basic rocket design but at the end limited by the origins of its engine which are reportedly based on the Sa-2.
> The Agni-I it might be argued as a copy of a Russian or Israeli missile but that it just conjecture, one could say that the Brahmos is Russian but then it is based on the P-800 Oniks so it does have a lot of Russian input.
> 
> Essentially the reason behind this is that India's closest partner in Russia was also the most monitored by the MCTR protocols and hence could only provide technology components and not missiles lest it be accused of violating these restrictions. Otherwise all Indian missiles would be simple Russian ones since any country would find it a lot easier to invest 100 and get 4 excellent missile systems rather than spend 1000 and get 5 untried prototypes. Further corroboration of the desperation facing Indian scientists during the 90's can be taken from accounts of Pakistani and Indian "_delegations_" meeting in the same drawing rooms of "_fixers_" that provide "_consultancy_" and "_procurement_" services in the black market in places like Dubai.
> 
> Which is why till recently India was behind in _*Deployed*_ Missile tech as compared to Pakistan. However, as I have posted here a while back the reason is for the different approaches taken in missile development by the two parties due to the different environment available to them. One had access to entire missile systems if they wished(which were sophisticated in propulsion but not in guidance), while the other had access to various technologies but was dogged both by bureaucratic tape and R&D failures.
> 
> Compare the two philosophies to baking cake. One decides to learn how to make cake with eggs, and flour and so on. In that process, they get it right 2 times and ten times wrong. The other uses a cake mix and only changes the flavour it puts in and icing.
> The first one does not have such easy access to cake mix but better ingredients.. the latter has ok cake mix but better access to the rest. So for the initial while, the second one will make better tasting cake while the first one learns how to make the batter in the first place. It is also cheaper to get readymade cake mix than doing it from scratch.
> 
> At some point, one has become the master of cake mixes and has even learnt how to do basic batter. While the other has eventually mastered the entire batter process. Essentially , both can make good cake. But the cake mix guy has to look for cake mixes he can adapt since his batter skills arent all that good. The cake batter guy however, is no longer dependant on anyone to improve his batter and even with help does 50% of the task himself. So while in the past the cake mix guy would easily edge ahead by improvise and adapt cake mixes.. he is limited by them. The cake batter guy will have his road open to make any sort of cake he wants.. since he at least has better idea of the batter.
> 
> Bad example, but I cant find my earlier detailed post on the subject so this will have to do.



I am still trying to figure out what the point of all this is. As I and Ahaseeb often remark, how does it matter now anyway? A nation does what it can to create a deterrence against a perceived threat, if said deterrence came out of the bottom of the sea or fell from the sky it still would not matter. The nations in question have the required systems so what's the point of comparing them? Its akin to saying that the JL-2 has a greater range (ergo more advanced) than the A-5 and ergo India's deterrence is compromised. 

Why do you let such threads thrive?


----------



## bandit

Oscar said:


> This is usually verified. Moreover, leave that distinction to us. Sandy is an excellent example of how we select people so you are insulting him as well. Suggest you stick to the topic and refute posts.



I have seen outlandish claims here.

However, the point is have you seen such level of insider knowledge being spilled out by people can only mean two things, none of which is good.

I cannot believe such easy access to sensitive information being permitted in open domain.


----------



## SQ8

bandit said:


> I have seen outlandish claims here.
> 
> However, the point is have you seen such level of insider knowledge being spilled out by people can only mean two things, none of which is good.
> 
> I cannot believe such easy access to sensitive information being permitted in open domain.



On the contrary.
There is very little insider knowledge spilled here. What is there is freely available and discernible through public documents by the MoD. Only difference is that people dont bother to check these things. Other than that, if there are people with particular ties to military or otherwise then whatever is divulged to them is already open knowledge or known to intelligence sources anyway.
Nothing is ever leaked as such as you may believe.



Dillinger said:


> I am still trying to figure out what the point of all this is. As I and Ahaseeb often remark, how does it matter now anyway? A nation does what it can to create a deterrence against a perceived threat, if said deterrence came out of the bottom of the sea or fell from the sky it still would not matter. The nations in question have the required systems so what's the point of comparing them? Its akin to saying that the JL-2 has a greater range (ergo more advanced) than the A-5 and ergo India's deterrence is compromised.
> 
> Why do you let such threads thrive?



What else will these poor souls do then? All they have is egoistic posturing, but then the same goes for the countries in general. 
While actual issues are neglected.

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## bandit

Oscar said:


> On the contrary.
> There is very little insider knowledge spilled here. What is there is freely available and discernible through public documents by the MoD. Only difference is that people dont bother to check these things. Other than that, if there are people with particular ties to military or otherwise then whatever is divulged to them is already open knowledge or known to intelligence sources anyway.
> *Nothing is ever leaked as such as you may believe.*
> .



Good, then we may safely ignore the claims about inside sources and relatives giving fairy tales as such.

I never believed any such story for a second.


----------



## MilSpec

bandit said:


> I have seen outlandish claims here.
> 
> However, the point is have you seen such level of insider knowledge being spilled out by people can only mean two things, none of which is good.
> 
> I cannot believe such easy access to sensitive information being permitted in open domain.



I still haven't seen any information on this forum which can be even a slight bit sensitive....People who are privy to any sensitive information are extremely careful to say anything even to their spouses, forget internet forums.

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## bandit

sandy_3126 said:


> I still haven't seen any information on this forum which can be even a slight bit sensitive....People who are privy to any sensitive information are extremely careful to say anything even to their spouses, forget internet forums.



I know, most tall claims here have proven to be lies.

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## MilSpec

Oscar said:


> This is usually verified. Moreover, leave that distinction to us. Sandy is an excellent example of how we select people so you are insulting him as well. Suggest you stick to the topic and refute posts.
> 
> 
> Now, the argument was on the lineage of Indian missiles vs Pakistanis Missiles.
> Lets put it this way, the Ghauri series is clearly the Nodong; first painted and fired as it is off ships coming in from North Korea and later improved with home made guidance systems along with smaller engine improvements.
> 
> The Shaheen series is modified form of existing blueprints and apart from aerodynamics has less in Common with other missiles than thought. Essentially the whole lineup is a mix of existing designs heavily modified for requirements or local derivations of that basic design. It is hard to deny that the Babur looks a lot like the Tomahawk but whats inside it has little to do with the BGM-109.
> 
> The first Indian missiles by contrast were attempts to emulate Russian designs.. the Prithvi does look like a basic rocket design but at the end limited by the origins of its engine which are reportedly based on the Sa-2.
> The Agni-I it might be argued as a copy of a Russian or Israeli missile but that it just conjecture, one could say that the Brahmos is Russian but then it is based on the P-800 Oniks so it does have a lot of Russian input.
> 
> Essentially the reason behind this is that India's closest partner in Russia was also the most monitored by the MCTR protocols and hence could only provide technology components and not missiles lest it be accused of violating these restrictions. Otherwise all Indian missiles would be simple Russian ones since any country would find it a lot easier to invest 100 and get 4 excellent missile systems rather than spend 1000 and get 5 untried prototypes. Further corroboration of the desperation facing Indian scientists during the 90's can be taken from accounts of Pakistani and Indian "_delegations_" meeting in the same drawing rooms of "_fixers_" that provide "_consultancy_" and "_procurement_" services in the black market in places like Dubai.
> 
> Which is why till recently India was behind in _*Deployed*_ Missile tech as compared to Pakistan. However, as I have posted here a while back the reason is for the different approaches taken in missile development by the two parties due to the different environment available to them. One had access to entire missile systems if they wished(which were sophisticated in propulsion but not in guidance), while the other had access to various technologies but was dogged both by bureaucratic tape and R&D failures.
> 
> Compare the two philosophies to baking cake. One decides to learn how to make cake with eggs, and flour and so on. In that process, they get it right 2 times and ten times wrong. The other uses a cake mix and only changes the flavour it puts in and icing.
> The first one does not have such easy access to cake mix but better ingredients.. the latter has ok cake mix but better access to the rest. So for the initial while, the second one will make better tasting cake while the first one learns how to make the batter in the first place. It is also cheaper to get readymade cake mix than doing it from scratch.
> 
> At some point, one has become the master of cake mixes and has even learnt how to do basic batter. While the other has eventually mastered the entire batter process. Essentially , both can make good cake. But the cake mix guy has to look for cake mixes he can adapt since his batter skills arent all that good. The cake batter guy however, is no longer dependant on anyone to improve his batter and even with help does 50% of the task himself. So while in the past the cake mix guy would easily edge ahead by improvise and adapt cake mixes.. he is limited by them. The cake batter guy will have his road open to make any sort of cake he wants.. since he at least has better idea of the batter.
> 
> Bad example, but I cant find my earlier detailed post on the subject so this will have to do.



Very well summed up... 

Members on the forum grossly underestimate the capability of the opposite sides. Both sides have done extensive amount of reverse engineering, and it is absolutely true that both sides often miscalculate their projects, which is a part of every development cycles. 

Rocket technology is not as complex as touted by most of the world, as long as you have technology to build airframe, propellent and test them, guidance and communication systems do not take decades to develop especially when the working concept is not space age and computing is dirt cheap... Most of the defence tech is getting simplified day by day, when your common cell phone has more computing strength than the computers that launched the Appolo 11... 

the difficult technologies which actually bring huge breakthroughs go completely unnoticed, - Metallurgical development, Data acquisition and monitoring systems, Epoxy development, these are technologies that make the difference between a technology manufacturing country and a consumer country, not an extended fuselage to carry more fuel.... People will be surprised to know the key technologies that the french russians US etc withhold fromthier customers would sound extremely trivial... 

In my humble opinion i do not think Iskander has anything to do with shaurya as @Dazzler claimed. As far as pakistani missiles are concerned, i highly doubt if the NoKo missiles are even still in commision, pakistan has better resources to develop better missiles than NoKo's chinese counterfeit missiles...



bandit said:


> I know, most tall claims here have proven to be lies.



Can you point me to a few, I know for sure I didn't make any....

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## bandit

sandy_3126 said:


> Can you point me to a few, I know for sure I didn't make any....



I wasn't talking about you, haven't followed your posts too much.

The usual suspects- Nuclear Submarine, JF17 Block 2 capabiliities, Pakistani ICBM.

Aren't you the motorcycle guy? What did you buy in the end?


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## SQ8

sandy_3126 said:


> the difficult technologies which actually bring huge breakthroughs go completely unnoticed, - Metallurgical development, Data acquisition and monitoring systems, Epoxy development, these are technologies that make the difference between a technology manufacturing country and a consumer country, not an extended fuselage to carry more fuel.... People will be surprised to know the key technologies that the french russians US etc withhold from thier customers would sound extremely trivial...
> 
> In my humble opinion i do not think Iskander has anything to do with shaurya as @Dazzler claimed. As far as pakistani missiles are concerned, i highly doubt if the NoKo missiles are even still in commision, pakistan has better resources to develop better missiles than NoKo's chinese counterfeit missiles...
> .



The thing that people forget is that the big three suppliers.. Namely , the US , Russia and France arent the only ones with missile technology and programs. Apart from China, countries like Israel, Argentina, South Africa all have/had missile programs. Moreover, before the breakup of the Union there were a lot of missile experts in former soviet states along with other warsaw pact allies. After the cold war, weapons were not the only thing for sale from these nations in the black market(as humorously portrayed in the move Lord of war); Blueprints, information and technology experts all went on "sale" in the arms Bazaar. Cities like Dubai, Hong Kong and Bangkok were regular meeting points for people looking to buy and sell such services. And it is during those 90's that embargoed countries like India and Pakistan desperately scrounged around these markets for such services to assist in such programs. Sometimes bidding for the same person or service. Does it make their programs any less indigenous? After all, it was a search for knowledge and that is what the sought. People from South Africa came to Pakistan and other East European states, experts in missile guidance/ seekers/ ELINT and SIGINT.. and similar people went to India. These people shared their information with the country's leading engineers and assisted in early programs. Early programs that taught them how to talk the talk and walk the walk. 

The difference was that Pakistan had the advantage that its ally could essetially ship entire missle components to it through the KKH without raising bells in the MTCR.. the same cannot be said of India. However, these early Pakistani missiles were still ages behind in guidance and control which is where the external "consultants" came in. 
For India, I assume many of its "consultants" were Russian. But because it could not import certain items without raising too many bells; and that it relied a bit too much on Russians and French early on for components. It lagged behind in areas such as propulsion and guidance as these had to be then done in house from scratch. In my opinion, if this hypothesis is correct, this approach is bearing its fruits now as it has a greater understanding of its components(in both success and failure) vis-a-vis Pakistan which still looks to focus more on an approach of Reverse-engineer->Improved Frankenstien process.

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## Iggy

BTW any one tell me what is the use of a cap in a missile just like Shourya has?


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## MilSpec

bandit said:


> I wasn't talking about you, haven't followed your posts too much.
> 
> The usual suspects- Nuclear Submarine, JF17 Block 2 capabiliities, Pakistani ICBM.
> 
> Aren't you the motorcycle guy? What did you buy in the end?



I have had a motorcycle before I joined pdf... you might be confusing me with sashan

http://www.defence.pk/forums/member...s-out-here-want-post-photos-your-rides-2.html
post 21


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## bandit

sandy_3126 said:


> I have had a motorcycle before I joined pdf... you might be confusing me with sashan
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/member...s-out-here-want-post-photos-your-rides-2.html
> post 21



Oh yeah my bad!!

What motorcycle you got btw


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## MilSpec

bandit said:


> Oh yeah my bad!!
> 
> What motorcycle you got btw



Yamaha Vstar Classic - post 21 on the previous link

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## The Deterrent

seiko said:


> BTW any one tell me what is the use of a cap in a missile just like Shourya has?



Shaurya/K-15 use pressurized gas ejection mechanism for launch through the canister/SLBM tube. Since the nose is conical (unlike that of Trident for example, which is round), it is necessary to place a "cap" to provide a cork-like effect to stop the gases from releasing during ejection. Thats the most probable reason I guess.

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## Bratva

bandit said:


> I wasn't talking about you, haven't followed your posts too much.
> 
> The usual suspects- Nuclear Submarine, JF17 Block 2 capabiliities, Pakistani ICBM.
> 
> Aren't you the motorcycle guy? What did you buy in the end?



A person should do little research before opening mouth and showing how much ignorant he is. Nuclear submarine is official. Last year, It was officially stated that Nuclear submarine development plan is put in motion and 5 year development time frame was given.

JF-17 Block 2 capabilities were put on hold due to financial constraints PAF faced/facing

Pakistani ICBM is in developmental stage that would be Shaheen 3.

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## The Deterrent

mafiya said:


> Pakistani ICBM is in developmental stage that would be Shaheen 3.



I'm afraid Shaheen-3 will not have the characteristics of an ICBM.


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## Bratva

Oscar said:


> The thing that people forget is that the big three suppliers.. Namely , the US , Russia and France arent the only ones with missile technology and programs.* Apart from China, countries like Israel, Argentina, South Africa all have/had missile programs.*




IIRC, an interesting news item appeared in south african local news papers in 2005/2006, an engineer working on guided missile projects in Denel Dynamics were jailed due to his illegal collaboration with Pakistan. The investigations revealed The unnamed engineer received 6.5 million dollar for his services.



> In 2000, South African engineer allegedly sold weapons secrets to Pakistan,
> helping overcome restrictions on arms sales imposed since the 1999 coup by General Pervez
> Musharraf. An air weapons specialist was tried on 21 counts that ranged from fraud to theft to
> contraventions of several laws, including the Armscor Act and the Copyright Act

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## bandit

mafiya said:


> *A person should do little research before opening mouth and showing how much ignorant he is*. Nuclear submarine is official. Last year, It was officially stated that Nuclear submarine development plan is put in motion and 5 year development time frame was given.
> 
> JF-17 Block 2 capabilities were put on hold due to financial constraints PAF faced/facing
> 
> Pakistani ICBM is in developmental stage that would be Shaheen 3.


^^


AhaseebA said:


> I'm afraid Shaheen-3 will not have the characteristics of an ICBM.



Seems like you need to follow your own advice .


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## The Deterrent

bandit said:


> Seems like you need to follow your own advice .



It is not his fault, a few reputable online sources have made this claim.

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## Bratva

bandit said:


> ^^
> 
> 
> Seems like you need to follow your own advice .




Opinion differs. But Next logical step after developing 3000 KM missile would be missile with a distance of 4500/5000 KM missile and not you are ignorant but also you are proving yourself pathetic by arguing uselessly , you try to take cheap shots on minnion points. Since you been properly educated about nuke sub and block 2. ICBM truth would come out eventually.

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## SQ8

bandit said:


> ^^
> 
> 
> Seems like you need to follow your own advice .



Do you have anything constructive to add? Or are you just restricted to smileys? 
In that case we can ensure that you no longer have to worry about "sources" on any Pakistani thread and derailing discussions by keeping you off them entirely.

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## oguz senturk

I like my Pakistani Brothers' tactical missiles. Stay Strong Forever Pakistan

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## Pabbi

Oh. Keep dreaming. You show that indian incompetents and loosers.

Why do you need one.


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## nomi007

did we we (pakistan) ever use Laser-guided bomb or Laser-guided missiles ?

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...siles-vs-indian-missiles-7.html#ixzz2gmoy9TLh


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## Jf Thunder

sardar1987 said:


> Please don't post such claims or comparison threads.......and only area where pakistan is slightly ahead is in cruise missiles and once nirbhay is launched in the year end it will be complete indian advantage


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
funny, my advice to you is take your missile program slow, spend time on one missile and make it perfect it would be better than to make missiles quickly as it will affect their quality negatively



nomi007 said:


> did we we (pakistan) ever use Laser-guided bomb or Laser-guided missiles ?
> 
> Source: Pakistani Missiles vs Indian Missiles | Page 7


i dont think we used some, not in my information, but we did design one for the Burraq combat drone i think

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## Jf Thunder

HariPrasad said:


> Are you Joking? India is Far ahead of most of the country in Cruise missile technology. Nirbhay will put India on the top of all countries having Cruz missile technology. Pakistan's cruise missiles are No where nears that of India.


dude Pakistan is a poor country, it does not have any advanced technology of its own and cant compare to India while India has everything, why then is India not attacking Pakistan? of you think are missiles are so useless and your defense system so flawless then come on in and attack, complete your mission on which you have wasted all your lives wipe Pakistan off the face of the Earth..............................unless you are afraid of something? what might that be, is it maybe our strategy or our tactics or maybe that we as Muslims DO NOT FEAR DEATH?

NARA E TAKBEER

Allah Ho Akbar


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## HariPrasad

Jf Thunder said:


> dude Pakistan is a poor country, it does not have any advanced technology of its own and cant compare to India while India has everything, why then is India not attacking Pakistan? of you think are missiles are so useless and your defense system so flawless then come on in and attack, complete your mission on which you have wasted all your lives wipe Pakistan off the face of the Earth..............................unless you are afraid of something? what might that be, is it maybe our strategy or our tactics or maybe that we as Muslims DO NOT FEAR DEATH?
> NARA E TAKBEER
> Allah Ho Akbar




There are so many county advanced than other in defense technology but they do not attack others. We are not you who always talk and think of war. We have shown our strength when we were attacked.

Actually we should talk of friendship and not war. When we talk of our advancement in Cruise missile technology, Pakistan should not take it otherwise. They should take pride that their brethren country progresses like we become happy of any good news of Pakistan such as metro, 5% GDp growth etc, etc...

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## Jf Thunder

HariPrasad said:


> There are so many county advanced than other in defense technology but they do not attack others. We are not you who always talk and think of war. We have shown our strength when we were attacked.
> 
> Actually we should talk of friendship and not war. When we talk of our advancement in Cruise missile technology, Pakistan should not take it otherwise. They should take pride that their brethren country progresses like we become happy of any good news of Pakistan such as metro, 5% GDp growth etc, etc...


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
you showed your strength alright, if you were so STRONG why didn't you take all of Kashmir and Lahore and Sialkot? what stopped you, ok i know starting a new war is a long and difficult task, heck you couldn't even make Bangladesh part of India, and it ended up becoming another Muslim nation lol, the truth is in 1965 we SUCCESSFULLY repulsed your attack and did nothing else, i wonder why you didn't come to Lahore to drink wine lol just like you said? and as far as friendship is concerned i have said it a lot of times before and i will say it again, it is impossible till the Kashmir issue is resolved which cannot be resolved without war


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