# J-11B vs Su-30MKI



## Lankan Ranger

*J-11B vs Su-30MKI*

*How would a J-11B AND Su-30MKI go up against each other?*

*J-11B:*Shenyang J-11 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*Su-30MKI:*Sukhoi Su-30MKI - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Lankan Ranger

J-11B







Su-30MKI


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## Jazzbot

though i am not specialist or military guy, but as per my little knowledge Su-30MKI will have advantage.

however i am looking forward towards some expert opinion.


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## farhan_9909

j-11BS

Su 30MKi is over rated by indians,

and cost is very low 35-37 Million per aircraft.

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## kashith

they look identical....only difference would be the avionics


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## Jazzbot

farhan_9909 said:


> and cost is very low 35-37 Million per aircraft.



cost of what..? 
J11b or Su-30MKI..?

sorry for my less knowledge or stupid question..


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## below_freezing

the other major difference is that J-11B is one pilot and Su-30MKI is 2.

for every one MKI downed, they have to replace 2 pilots if they get shot down as well, not 1.


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## shiningindia

please stop comparing su-30mki with other aircraft. first u compare it with jf-17, j-10,f-16 and now j-11b.
j-11b is a copy of su-30. every thing is same.

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## maithil

^^^well i thought it was a copy of older SU-27..but i might be wrong..

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## Jazzbot

shiningindia said:


> j-11b is a copy of su-30. every thing is same.



i thought its a copy of su-27

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## KS

farhan_9909 said:


> j-11BS
> 
> Su 30MKi is over rated by indians,
> 
> and cost is very low 35-37 Million per aircraft.



The cost is 45 mils wen Made in India and more than 50 mils wen imported from Russia.

But even if going by ur logic the JF-17 costs just 15 million..so is it the worst Fighter ..?

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## Jazzbot

Karthic Sri said:


> But even if going by ur logic the JF-17 costs just 15 million..so is it the worst Fighter ..?



and what it has to do with this thread lol..?
why bringing JF-17 here..?

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## su-47

really there is no way to compare these aircraft. airframes are similar. difference will be in avionics.

sri lankan, please stop making such threads. it will just cause unnecessary flame wars. a lot of people here are just looking for an excuse to fight. 

if u want compare something that won't cause tensions like Eurofighter vs Rafale or spitfire vs me-109 or something.


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## Peregrine

hi
Su-30 has 2-D TVC engine what about J-11b?


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## rohailmalhi

jazzy_superior said:


> and what it has to do with this thread lol..?
> why bringing JF-17 here..?



Coz of there obsession with JF-17


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## peacemaker10

Useless thread ..

J-11B is a copy of Su-27 and at most comparable with Su-30MKK3. One to one, Su-30 MKI is most advanced version in all Su-30 family and hence having an edge over J-11B. Not to mention TVC, superior radar and avionics in MKI.

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## Trichy

Peregrine said:


> hi
> Su-30 has 2-D TVC engine what about J-11b?



Su-30MKI has 3-D TVC


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## Luftwaffe

you forgot mki has hyperspace technology, invisible cloak technology as well and shields.

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## humblehobbes

well.. I am sure someone's gonna use this reply.. So let me spoil their chance..

Its not the machine that matters, but the man behind the machine that matters..

Going by that, It seems that the users of J11-B would be the better men behind the machines...

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## Chanakyaa

*Today almost 40&#37; of Expenditure is made on Avinoics and Advanced Systems like Radars etc.
That is precisely the Advantage MKI Has over J11B , OR F16 BLK 52 has over Blk 15 !*

MKI Main Advantages ::

1. Has Best PESA Radar , Range 300+ KM
2. Has Israeli Jammers
3. Has Western Avionics
4. Has Indian Mission Computers
5. Has 3D TVC and Canards , is Superbly Manuverble
6. Has Capability to Fire Brahmos and Can be used as a First Strike Weapon in Nuclear Stage.

Its Almost Customised Su 35 for India as Wiki Reports.
So Compare a Su 35 and Su 27 ( Copied version as we all Know ) , You get the Picture.



> you forgot mki has hyperspace technology, invisible cloak technology as well and shields.



Neighbors Envy=Owners pride !!

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## peacemaker10

luftwaffe said:


> you forgot mki has hyperspace technology, invisible cloak technology as well and shields.




In short it has a WARP technology ...

So, who want to make a first contact ??


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## Tiger Awan

XiNiX said:


> *Today almost 40% of Expenditure is made on Avinoics and Advanced Systems like Radars etc.
> That is precisely the Advantage MKI Has over J11B , OR F16 BLK 52 has over Blk 15 !*
> 
> MKI Main Advantages ::
> 
> 1. Has Best PESA Radar , Range 300+ KM
> 2. Has *Israeli *Jammers
> 3. Has *Western* Avionics
> 4. Has *Indian *Mission Computers
> 5. Has 3D TVC and Canards , is Superbly Manuverble
> 6. Has Capability to Fire Brahmos and Can be used as a First Strike Weapon in Nuclear Stage.



great standards


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## IndianArmy

Tiger Awan said:


> great standards



Great standards Indeed, We are happy as Long as Counries Like Israel and Russia want our avionics to be Used by them, its a Moment of pride for us...

Russia wanted our Vetrivale Avionics suit for there Sukhoi 30 varients to export it to other countries...

Israel Is looking to Put Our Mayavi EWS for there F-35's.... And If that is not standards, then may I Know what according to Is?

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## Luftwaffe

XiNiX..
Point# 6 can be applied to J-11B
use of composite material 
re-designed air inlets of engine intakes to reduce the radar cross section, this coupled with the adoption of composite material.
radar not much information is out there and most won't go with wikipedia, so lets wait till Chinese release more information regarding the radar/avionics/jammers
mki superior but not to be over exaggerated. 
I would still not compare J-11B with mki unless PLAAF give outs transparent information regarding its avionics/radar/jammers and the engine. There are too many vague information out there regarding J-11 variants.


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## gowthamraj

* i have one serious question did Sukhoi 30mkk have bars*


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## gowthamraj

IndianArmy said:


> Great standards Indeed, We are happy as Long as Counries Like Israel and Russia want our avionics to be Used by them, its a Moment of pride for us...
> 
> Russia wanted our Vetrivale Avionics suit for there Sukhoi 30 varients to export it to other countries...
> 
> *Israel Is looking to Put Our Mayavi EWS for there F-35's* .... And If that is not standards, then may I Know what according to Is?


 
Sir what is this. . 

Do you have source for it


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## amalakas

The Chinese Air-force is refusing to accept the J-11B for service as it has unacceptable leves of vibration during take-off under load and some g manauvres ..

so not really a vs contest until they become operational.

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## Lankan Ranger

amalakas said:


> The Chinese Air-force is refusing to accept the J-11B for service as it has unacceptable leves of vibration during take-off under load and some g manauvres ..
> 
> so not really a vs contest until they become operational.



24 J-11B jets in active service at Shenyang Military Region, More coming soon.

This is the advanced multi-role version which uses more Chinese components, including radar, engine, and missiles. The chief program engineer for J-11B is Mr. Guo Dianman. 

China is interested in reducing its reliance on foreign technology for both cost reasons and a desire to improve its domestic research and design. 

It is reported that one regiment of J-11Bs are currently in service, but this seems to contradict with the latest information provided by the Chinese government: In May, 2007, the existence of J-11B was finally acknowledged by the Chinese government for the first time when the state-run Chinese TV stations first aired the report on J-11B in PLAAF service.

Asian Defense analysts believe Shenyang Aircraft Corporation will be able manufacture 24 J-11B jets every year to year from 2010/11.


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## amalakas

The PLAAF will not accept any more planes untill the problems are solved.


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## SpArK

Chinese Military Won't Accept 'Made In China' Fighters

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## amalakas

BENNY said:


> Chinese Military Won't Accept 'Made In China' Fighters



Yes, the procedure of acceptance is the same around the world. 

The equipment is delivered in batches, and if problems are found with the previous batch, the next is usually not accepted, if the problems are not resolved.

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## gowthamraj

^this happens due to russian always give production technology but not basic design laws for their products . . So it always problem to copy russian tech to the level of theirs 


I belive j-11 dont have the ability as the su.27 have


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## Chanakyaa

The Members Must Consider One Very Important Factor - Western Avionics which is second to None ( On Par with US ).

The Recent Upgrade Programme of JF17 and the desperation of PAF to get Western Missiles and Avionics eaisily tell u the reality.

Now i wont conclude that Chinese Avionics is Better or Inferior But, The specific points i mentiond make MKI a perfect 4.5 Gen Fighter.

Add to it an AESA , that MKI will be getting , very soon, the only major distinguished capability lacking between MKI and an F22 Raptor in Stealth.

MKI Has Range, The Radar, The Manuverability, The TVC , The Avionics, The Protection Suite You will know the why MKI is far superior to J11.

Its easy for me to say F22-stealth=MKI But, Thats not the way to compare.
Similarily .. MKI-Radar-TVC-Avionics=J11 .. May Be but Its stupid to compare the Frontline Fighters like that.

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## Peregrine

XiNiX said:


> The Members Must Consider One Very Important Factor - Western Avionics which is second to None ( On Par with US ).
> 
> *The Recent Upgrade Programme of JF17 and the desperation of PAF to get Western Missiles and Avionics eaisily tell u the reality.
> *
> Now i wont conclude that Chinese Avionics is Better or Inferior But, The specific points i mentiond make MKI a perfect 4.5 Gen Fighter.
> 
> Add to it an AESA , that MKI will be getting , very soon, the only major distinguished capability lacking between MKI and an F22 Raptor in Stealth.
> 
> MKI Has Range, The Radar, The Manuverability, The TVC , The Avionics, The Protection Suite You will know the why MKI is far superior to J11.
> 
> Its easy for me to say F22-stealth=MKI But, Thats not the way to compare.
> Similarily .. MKI-Radar-TVC-Avionics=J11 .. May Be but Its stupid to compare the Frontline Fighters like that.



Hi
"just because Pakistan is looking for European avionics & radars so that makes MKI the best fighter in the world except it's not stealthy but still best of all we dont need MMRCA since we already have the best one but we are still gonna get it".  <-----------Now that's what you call a fan boy statement not to mention the JF-17 as an example only speaks of eternal obsession


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## Tiger Awan

IndianArmy said:


> Great standards Indeed, We are happy as Long as Counries Like Israel and Russia want our avionics to be Used by them, its a Moment of pride for us...
> 
> Russia wanted our Vetrivale Avionics suit for there Sukhoi 30 varients to export it to other countries...
> 
> Israel Is looking to Put Our Mayavi EWS for there F-35's.... And If that is not standards, then may I Know what according to Is?



Calm down man. I was not pointing towards india only. What i was trying to say that you cant just say that abc country has installed avionic so this AC is better than xyz country AC.


We must compare the specifications (which in case of J-11 will not be known exactly)

So leave this fight.


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## nForce

ahhh..whats the point in comparing apples with oranges???


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## IndianArmy

Tiger Awan said:


> Calm down man. I was not pointing towards india only. What i was trying to say that you cant just say that abc country has installed avionic so this AC is better than xyz country AC.
> 
> 
> We must compare the specifications (which in case of J-11 will not be known exactly)
> 
> So leave this fight.



My Answer was Just to prove the standard of Our avionics, was not comparing....


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## applesauce

"Now i wont conclude that Chinese Avionics is Better or Inferior But, The specific points i mentiond make MKI a perfect 4.5 Gen Fighter."

so tell me again why india is looking at other fighter when the MKI is "perfect"

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## IndianArmy

applesauce said:


> "Now i wont conclude that Chinese Avionics is Better or Inferior But, The specific points i mentiond make MKI a perfect 4.5 Gen Fighter."
> 
> *so tell me again why india is looking at other fighter when the MKI is "perfect"*



We need other Air superiority Fighters aswell.... Instead of only Upgrading the Suk 30 MKI, we need Other Air superiority Fighters In our Arsenal And Diversity Is required.. And Our thirst for Suk 30 MKI will never end..Its such a potent aircraft

But You see, MKI 's are And would be the back bone of IAF till the FGFA is fully inducted, no matter which ever Aircraft is chosen In MRCA.... Because MKI is being upgraded to a 4.5 Gen Aircraft....


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## hal-fgfa

applesauce said:


> "Now i wont conclude that Chinese Avionics is Better or Inferior But, The specific points i mentiond make MKI a perfect 4.5 Gen Fighter."
> 
> *so tell me again why india is looking at other fighter when the MKI is "perfect"*



please use ur common sense as we all know sukhoi 30mki is air su. fighter ..............and if u talk about others than its MRCA (multi role combat aircraft ) and FGFA (fifth gen fighter aircraft) their name say it all......................... 

if u want 1 on 1 so on fighter so su30mki is best in whole asia


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## Luftwaffe

su-30 maki is featured in starship troopers.

*Mods close VS thread*

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## dingyibvs

BENNY said:


> Chinese Military Won't Accept 'Made In China' Fighters



That problem's been resolved for quite a while now, I think. Wasn't this news originated from Kanwa, a site of pretty poor credibility?


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## &#20013;&#21326;&#20154;&#27665;&#20849;&#21644;&#

XiNiX said:


> The Members Must Consider One Very Important Factor - Western Avionics which is second to None ( On Par with US ).
> 
> The Recent Upgrade Programme of JF17 and the desperation of PAF to get Western Missiles and Avionics eaisily tell u the reality.
> 
> Now i wont conclude that Chinese Avionics is Better or Inferior But, The specific points i mentiond make MKI a perfect 4.5 Gen Fighter.
> 
> Add to it an AESA , that MKI will be getting , very soon, the only major distinguished capability lacking between MKI and an F22 Raptor in Stealth.
> 
> MKI Has Range, The Radar, The Manuverability, The TVC , The Avionics, The Protection Suite You will know the why MKI is far superior to J11.
> 
> Its easy for me to say F22-stealth=MKI But, Thats not the way to compare.
> Similarily .. MKI-Radar-TVC-Avionics=J11 .. May Be but Its stupid to compare the Frontline Fighters like that.



JF-17 got J-11B radar? That's new... No, the J-11B radar was developed from scratch has nothing to do with previous developments.


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## below_freezing

the Su-30 MKI is superior to the J-11B.

however the IAF as a whole is inferior to the PLAAF. wars are not decided by 1 or 2 strong weapons but by the overall strength of the system.

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## Chanakyaa

@apple,
As IndianArmy Said, we are NOT looking for a fighter BETTER than MKI, but to make up the numbers and to fill in the gap between LCA and MKI.

@luftwaffe,
You just deliberately misspelt.. 
I guess this is ur best shot when u got NO defence.. And suitable replies.
U r not to blame.. MKI is the King of Asian Skies.

@
I never said jf17 has j11 radar.
I was ONLY stating the IMPORTANCE of Advanced Radar and Avionics.


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## Chanakyaa

@belowfreezing,

well said.
Infact in the number game IAF is far behind PLAAF.
This was a remark made by our IAF Chief.

Indians dont live is Fools Paradise neglecting the realities.
This surely will help us to prepare for the unprepared.

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## graphican

XiNiX said:


> *Today almost 40&#37; of Expenditure is made on Avinoics and Advanced Systems like Radars etc.
> That is precisely the Advantage MKI Has over J11B , OR F16 BLK 52 has over Blk 15 !*
> 
> MKI Main Advantages ::
> 
> 1. Has Best PESA Radar , Range 300+ KM
> 2. Has Israeli Jammers
> 3. Has Western Avionics
> 4. Has Indian Mission Computers
> 5. Has 3D TVC and Canards , is Superbly Manuverble
> 6. Has Capability to Fire Brahmos and Can be used as a First Strike Weapon in Nuclear Stage.
> 
> *Its Almost Customised Su 35 for India as Wiki Reports.
> So Compare a Su 35 and Su 27 ( Copied version as we all Know ) , You get the Picture.*
> 
> Neighbors Envy=Owners pride !!



I can spend whole day laughing at that. Wait for the day when MKI will be called a "customized" T-50 for India.    Just like some living being, MKI is "growing" on its capabilities with every passing day. 

J-11B is called J-11*B* because its not the "copy" as you put it. So where Su-30MKI is *NOT* Su-35 in reality, J-11B is *NOT* Su-27. SU-30MKI might have an advantage over original Su-30 because of using foreign (Israeli) and probably more developed avionics, you can expect the same for China which have multi layers of relationship with same country you guys like to brag about.


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## hal-fgfa

graphican said:


> I can spend whole day laughing at that. Wait for the day when MKI will be called a "customized" T-50 for India.    Just like some living being, MKI is "growing" on its capabilities with every passing day.



if u finish ur smiles session so please think what he say .. he say that *
The Indian-exported Su-30MKI variant is said to retain some of the reported Su-35 systems and ability * he is not talking about su - 35bm .... please first read care fully 

Sukhoi Su-35 (Flanker-E / Super Flanker) - History, Specifications and Pictures - Military Aircraft

Sukhoi Su-30MKI - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Kinetic

Chinese Sukhoi versions has good air-to-ground capabilities while Indian MKI is multi-role air dominance fighter.

Now comparing both fighters.....

Radars: MKI has PESA while Chinese versions have general PD radars.
Engines: MKI has TVC while Chinese version doesn't.
Avionics, Jammars, IRST and other systems: MKI has combination of Indian, Russian, Israeli, French, British and South African systems while Chinese versions has only Russian and Chinese.


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## Guest

if F-15s and F-16s can out-performed SU-30MKI's, then, everything is possible.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...e-exercise-lecture-f-15-16-v-s-su-30-mki.html

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## Speeder 2

Kinetic said:


> Now comparing both fighters.....
> 
> Radars: MKI has PESA while Chinese versions have general PD radars.
> .



you don't know for sure what kind of radar J11B eventurally has.


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## KS

Ans equlally surely no one knows the exact range or the full power of the radars on MKI either.
Even during the RED FLAG the Indian pilots were not allowed to switch on the full power of their radars.


And someone saying that F-16 or F-15 outperforming MKI is pure Bullshyt.
Even RAF Typhoon pilots felt that this plane was better or on par to theirs.

The only two planes in service that could possibly defeat a MKI is the Raptor and the F-15 Silent eagle.

Ofcourse any body could say that any plane can shoot down other in any given day..but going according to the reputation and specification i say that is the only possibility.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Karthic Sri said:


> Ans equlally surely no one knows the exact range or the full power of the radars on MKI either.
> Even during the RED FLAG the Indian pilots were not allowed to switch on the full power of their radars.
> 
> 
> And someone saying that F-16 or F-15 outperforming MKI is pure Bullshyt.
> Even RAF Typhoon pilots felt that this plane was better or on par to theirs.
> 
> *The only two planes in service that could possibly defeat a MKI is the Raptor and the F-15 Silent eagle.*
> 
> Ofcourse any body could say that any plane can shoot down other in any given day..but going according to the reputation and specification i say that is the only possibility.


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## graphican

hal-fgfa said:


> if u finish ur smiles session so please think what he say .. he say that *
> The Indian-exported Su-30MKI variant is said to retain some of the reported Su-35 systems and ability * he is not talking about su - 35bm .... please first read care fully
> 
> Sukhoi Su-35 (Flanker-E / Super Flanker) - History, Specifications and Pictures - Military Aircraft
> 
> Sukhoi Su-30MKI - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



HAL FGFA, 

Read this line and see how Authentic it is in itself. "said to retain" and "reported".. any thing authentic my friend?. Second, *variant is said to retain some of the reported Su-35 systems* Some of means "a part of", which part and what &#37;age of it? Not sure? and this "a part of" functionality is based on "said to be based on reported features" . Now even if we believe this is authentic (which we of cours don't) how would a SU-30MKI that retains "some of" Su-35's features become a customized Su-35 for India? Got some bells tingling in mind?

Buddy you got to take some hot coffee and got to get out of your "fan boy mode" to realize what are you writing! Now if you don't mind, I wana laugh some more..


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## Desertfalcon

Guest said:


> if F-15s and F-16s can out-performed SU-30MKI's, then, everything is possible.
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...e-exercise-lecture-f-15-16-v-s-su-30-mki.html



You know, to be fair to the Indians, if anyone actually bothers to carefully go through the Red Flag after action reports on this, the IAF participants in Red-Flag were given high praise overall. You have to be among the best just to get invited to Red Flag and most newcomers have lots of problems, no matter what country they are from.

The IAF were on a learning curve at Red Flag and were the first to bring the Su-30 there so it had it's own adjustment problems, but her pilots and ground crews were thought to be highly professional and proficient at their jobs by everyone there.

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## below_freezing

Kinetic said:


> Chinese Sukhoi versions has good air-to-ground capabilities while Indian MKI is multi-role air dominance fighter.
> 
> Now comparing both fighters.....
> 
> Radars: MKI has PESA while Chinese versions have general PD radars.
> Engines: MKI has TVC while Chinese version doesn't.
> Avionics, Jammars, IRST and other systems: MKI has combination of Indian, Russian, Israeli, French, British and South African systems while Chinese versions has only Russian and Chinese.



To improve logistics we ripped out all Russian systems for the J-11B and replaced it with our own. this way, maintainance is easier.

This is an often overlooked fact, a certain ground crew member from USAF would be glad to educate us.


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## SomeGuy

gowthamraj said:


> * i have one serious question did Sukhoi 30mkk have bars*



The Bars radar was offered to China but the chinese declined.
I think the official reason was that it was too heavy and installing it would mean that the MKK/MKK2's would have to have Canards fitted.



Kinetic said:


> Chinese Sukhoi versions has good air-to-ground capabilities while Indian MKI is multi-role air dominance fighter.
> 
> Now comparing both fighters.....
> 
> Radars: MKI has PESA while Chinese versions have general PD radars.
> Engines: MKI has TVC while Chinese version doesn't.
> Avionics, Jammars, IRST and other systems: MKI has combination of Indian, Russian, Israeli, French, British and South African systems while Chinese versions has only Russian and Chinese.



I was under the impression that the J-11B (and J-10B) was a testbed for technologies to be incorporated into the 5th gen fighter - that would probably mean that the avionics etc going into the J-11B would be quite advanced.

That could probably mean that J11B has AESA radar.

As for TVC, true the russian AL31F engines don't have TVC but the WS-10B (a thrust vectoring version of WS-10) is undergoing testing and could be installed if TVC is required.


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## amalakas

During the Red Flag exercise, the indian pilots where too eager to demonstrate their post-stall maneuvers, and apparently paid no attention to the way the tactical side of the exercise was unfolding. Post-stall maneuvering and cobra's are part of the airplane's abilities not the sum of them. The indian pliots apparently thought that just because you can stand still in mid air with your plane, the opponent will not fire a simulated missile up your tailpipe. This was not the case and the MKIs didn't do so well in the that exercise. 

That however is not a fault of the plane, it's a fault of the training. 

The J-11B has problems .. let's wait and see if they will be sorted out.

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## KS

Pakistani Nationalist said:


>



Oooops sorry......

Forgot another place that could do it.......*JF-17*..


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## SomeGuy

Karthic Sri said:


> Ans equlally surely no one knows the exact range or the full power of the radars on MKI either.
> Even during the RED FLAG the Indian pilots were not allowed to switch on the full power of their radars.
> 
> 
> And someone saying that F-16 or F-15 outperforming MKI is pure Bullshyt.
> Even RAF Typhoon pilots felt that this plane was better or on par to theirs.



NO, the Typhoon pilots only said that the MKI had superior manoeuvering.

This is important because the Indra Dhanush exercise was to simulate close air combat with guns only - this is where manoeuverability is important.

MKI fanboys like yourself then take this to mean that the MKI on the whole is a better plane - this is simply not true (see below).



Karthic Sri said:


> The only two planes in service that could possibly defeat a MKI is the Raptor and the F-15 Silent eagle.



The fact is in a real fight, the Typhoon with its small RCS, supercruise ability, AESA and longer range Meteor ramjet BVRAAMs would greatly have the edge over MKI.


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## ptldM3

SomeGuy said:


> The fact is in a real fight, the Typhoon with its small RCS, supercruise ability, AESA and longer range Meteor ramjet BVRAAMs would greatly have the edge over MKI.



Typhoon AESA? Correct me if im wrong but it still uses PESA, and the Meteor is still years away from introduction. The overlooked aircraft is India's Mig-29K and although India has a small handful of them they do come with AESA and a true BVR missle---AA-10 with a rage of 130km.


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## KEETARP

> SomeGuy said:
> 
> 
> 
> The fact is in a real fight, the Typhoon with its *small RCS*, *supercruise ability*, *AESA and longer range Meteor* ramjet BVRAAMs would *greatly* have the edge over MKI.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rcs -
Click to expand...

What is the RCS of Typhoon in clean and typical A2A mission . Who calculated it.????
If you know about Geometry and shapings of LO objects , you can very well tell Typhoon dosen't have LO shape. And when fully armed with weapons that RCS figure dosen't even matter for Powerfull radar such as Modern Phase Array radars. 



> Supercruise-


Typhoon hasn't demonstrated supercruise in combat loaded state. *Clean supercruise dosen't count in air-warfare *



> AESA-


AESA dosen't means or translate into Greater performance . 
Look at the detection range of F18 APG79 it is less than what Su35 gives with PESA radar . *What matters is Peak power rating , Avg power and Duty cycle (or coefficient of variability) to maintain that AvgPw rating during Pulse transmission*.
*Typhoon still don't have AESA radar* , 



> METEOR


Is many years away from operational clearence or combat readiness on Typhoon . Even that too needs integration with Typhoon's next radar which will be selected later. Till now only CAPTOR has fired testing phase.
Range of METEOR and and any other missile varies btw *Kinematics of aircraft itself* , a Mach2 travelling Jet firing missile will have range advantage over a Mach1.2 jet firing that same missile.





> Greatly have the edge over MKI


Thats relative , 
Yes Typhoon has advantage over MKI but only in Defensive aids. Here is what Typhoon has edge on MKI
There is no such thing like *DASS* on current MKI 
*MIDS* on Typhoon has better range than Russian datalinks .
*PIRATE *system on Typhoon gives a larger and *360 coverag*e to typhoon while *OLS30 on MKI has same FLIR with less coverage* . 
*Most of these are Passive sensors and provide a tight sensor-fusion on typhoon's central Motorolla Processor providing better situational awareness to Pilot about surrounding*. That's it.

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## KEETARP

ptldM3 said:


> Typhoon AESA? Correct me if im wrong but it still uses PESA, and the Meteor is still years away from introduction. The overlooked aircraft is India's Mig-29K and although India has a small handful of them they do come with AESA and a true BVR missle---AA-10 with a rage of 130km.



No , Mig29 dosen't have a AFAR , its radar is still Zhuk-MF
Navy dosen't have stock of R27 , if you follow the procurement list . It was letter from MoD 
The BVR weapon of Mig29 is still R77 . So range is still of R77(80Km) not of R27(120).


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## SomeGuy

ptldM3 said:


> Typhoon AESA? Correct me if im wrong but it still uses PESA, and the Meteor is still years away from introduction. The overlooked aircraft is India's Mig-29K and although India has a small handful of them they do come with AESA and a true BVR missle---AA-10 with a rage of 130km.



Sorry, my bad. 

AESA has been in testing on Typhoon test aircraft since 2007 and should be part of Tranche 3 in 2012.

Even without Meteor, I still think the Typhoon would have an edge due to its low RCS (reputedly <1m2) making it more difficult for MKI to detect, in contrast to the large RCS of MKI.

The 130km range for the AA-10/R-27 is for the semi-active radar version - so it's not 'fire and forget'


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## ptldM3

LT.PRATEEK said:


> No , Mig29 dosen't have a AFAR , its radar is still Zhuk-MF
> Navy dosen't have stock of R27 , if you follow the procurement list . It was letter from MoD
> The BVR weapon of Mig29 is still R77 . So range is still of R77(80Km) not of R27(120).



The Zhuk-AE went into full production earlier this year; 10 are to be built in 2010 and the Mig-29K and KUB would/is the intended platform. I was also told that the India Mig-29K/KUB had the zhuk-ae, than again Indian media isn't always reliable.

As for the Indian Migs i always though they came with the AA-10, my mistake.


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## SomeGuy

LT.PRATEEK said:


> What is the RCS of Typhoon in clean and typical A2A mission . Who calculated it.????
> If you know about Geometry and shapings of LO objects , you can very well tell Typhoon dosen't have LO shape. And when fully armed with weapons that RCS figure dosen't even matter for Powerfull radar such as Modern Phase Array radars.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EF2000#Radar_signature_reduction_features



> Although not designated a stealth fighter, measures were taken to reduce the Typhoon's radar cross section (RCS), especially from the frontal aspect. An example of these measures is that the Typhoon has jet inlets that conceal the front of the jet engine (a strong radar target) from radar. Many important potential radar targets, such as the wing, canard and fin leading edges, are highly swept, so will reflect radar energy well away from the front sector. Some external weapons are mounted semi-recessed into the aircraft, partially shielding these missiles from incoming radar waves. In addition radar absorbent materials (RAM) developed primarily by EADS/DASA coat many of the most significant reflectors, e.g. the wing leading edges, the intake edges and interior, the rudder surrounds, strakes, etc. The Typhoon does not use internal storage of weapons. External mounting points are used instead, which increases its radar cross section but allows for more and larger stores.





> According to the RAF, the Eurofighter's RCS is better than RAF requirements. Comments from BAE Systems suggest the radar return is around one quarter of that of the Tornado it replaces. The Eurofighter is thought to have an RCS of less than one square metre in a clean configuration


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## KEETARP

SomeGuy said:


> Eurofighter Typhoon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia





> The Eurofighter is thought to have an RCS of less than one square metre in a *clean configuration*


Wars are never fought in clean configuration 
That too Wiki says only *Frontal sector* has been taken 


> Many important potential radar targets, such as the wing, canard and fin leading edges, are *highly swept*, so will reflect radar energy well away from the front sector


That means highly Swept wings would have least RCS. That is not true look at F14 most swept wings.





Then it should have least RCS return even better than F117/F22.??
Swept wings is lest RCS reduction measure 
Maximum reflections that determine Radar return from fighter Jet is 
-Hot ionised plume of gas .
-Canopy reflections 
-Weapons store 
What has been done in case of Eurofighter 
No IR reduction 
No internal bay 


> The Typhoon does not use internal storage of weapons. External mounting points are used instead, which increases its radar cross section but allows for more and larger stores.



No canopy treatment.
To reduce canopy return *F16 used Have-Glass2 reduction* Gold canopy , there is no such reduction on Typhoon. 
Atleast Sukhoi tried canopy treatment 
MULTIFUNCTIONAL NANOSIZED COATINGS
Uncoated 
Photos: Sukhoi Su-30MK Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net
coated
Photos: Sukhoi Su-30MK Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net

And RCS matters at what angle of engagement is there , what Freq of operation is used. 

See same figure RCS has different value at diff freq . BARS operate both in X and L band . 
For which band RCS figures ,we are talking off when comparing . 



> *Although not designated a stealth fighter*, measures were taken to reduce the Typhoon's radar cross section (RCS)


This reduced RCS only matters when we are talking of LO aircraft as i said before , it dosen't matter when you have a aircraft with loaded missile and drop tanks jutting out. against a powerful radar like BARS detecting returns from even 1m2 figure at 80kms distance. Even if you take 1m2 RCS for all drop-tanks + Missile (which in itself is a conservative estimate ) RCS of Typhoon is not less than 1.5 . Look at the chart where Su30 identifies it , much beyond R77 range.




> The Eurofighter is thought to have an RCS of less than one square metre in a clean configuration


This explains everything why Wiki cant be trusted -
Thought is different from Manufacturer's words

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## gowthamraj

Man you have any clear source that indicates mig-29k have AESA radar


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## applesauce

XiNiX said:


> @apple,
> As IndianArmy Said, we are NOT looking for a fighter BETTER than MKI, but to make up the numbers and to fill in the gap between LCA and MKI.
> 
> @luftwaffe,
> You just deliberately misspelt..
> I guess this is ur best shot when u got NO defence.. And suitable replies.
> U r not to blame.. MKI is the King of Asian Skies.
> 
> @
> I never said jf17 has j11 radar.
> I was ONLY stating the IMPORTANCE of Advanced Radar and Avionics.



i would agree that the MKI is indeed a good 4.5 gen plane however the claim was that it is the BEST 4.5 gen plane which is debatable at best. especially given that it has no proven combat record compare that with the likes of F-15 and F-16, in pure terms of specs American and European planes(recent models) can be as good or better. you can then see why i highly doubt that MKI is the best

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## sachair27

shiningindia said:


> please stop comparing su-30mki with other aircraft. first u compare it with jf-17, j-10,f-16 and now j-11b.
> j-11b is a copy of su-30. every thing is same.



oopse thats wrong its a copy of an su27 not 30


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## sachair27

SomeGuy said:


> NO, the Typhoon pilots only said that the MKI had superior manoeuvering.
> 
> This is important because the Indra Dhanush exercise was to simulate close air combat with guns only - this is where manoeuverability is important.
> 
> MKI fanboys like yourself then take this to mean that the MKI on the whole is a better plane - this is simply not true (see below).
> 
> 
> 
> The fact is in a real fight, the Typhoon with its small RCS, supercruise ability, AESA and longer range Meteor ramjet BVRAAMs would greatly have the edge over MKI.



mate you really are some guy.....
mate stop quoting defense industry daily....do some research and you will know about the jammers and AA 10 missiles onboard su30mki...
as far as russian Su's are concerned they out maneuver the western ACs....
even f16s had a hard time with the jammers on Mig21s during the US-India joint exercise


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## Storm Force

Both J11 & SU30MKI are far superior planes to anything in most mid tech asian air forces 

Brute power with great weapons load and multi role capability.

Great news for Both PLAAF & IAF.

The rest can look with ENVY


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## IndianTiger

farhan_9909 said:


> j-11BS
> 
> Su 30MKi is over rated by indians,
> 
> and cost is very low 35-37 Million per aircraft.


 
my friend USAF admitted this is Incredible machine, recently UK said the same when Eurofighter and MKI faced each other..


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## Bigoren

sachair27 said:


> oopse thats wrong its a copy of an su27 not 30


 
nope,you wrong.J11B is designed based on su-27 but its function better than su-30.


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## SBD-3

IndianTiger said:


> my friend USAF admitted this is Incredible machine, recently UK said the same when Eurofighter and MKI faced each other..


Dont Rush over to Wiki for Research, a lot of rephrazing on Wiki which can easily mislead the reader.


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## SBD-3

Bigoren said:


> nope,you wrong.J11B is designed based on su-27 but its function better than su-30.


The functionality of J-11B apparently seems more closer a madian of F-15C and F-15E (for roles) i.e. a Multirole fighter which can be used in both MR and AS roles.This is differntiation of J-11B from SU-27, which is a true ASF. SU-30 is a strike fighter, like PLAAF SU-30MKKs were very much designed for strike deliveries. The same is with the MKI which is a stike fighter but cant play all the roles alone (a major reason behind IAF going for MMRCA). So infact its the J-11BS which should be compared with MKI, not the J-11B.


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## unicorn148

hasnain0099 said:


> The functionality of J-11B apparently seems more closer a madian of F-15C and F-15E (for roles) i.e. a Multirole fighter which can be used in both MR and AS roles.This is differntiation of J-11B from SU-27, which is a true ASF. SU-30 is a strike fighter, like PLAAF SU-30MKKs were very much designed for strike deliveries. The same is with the MKI which is a stike fighter but cant play all the roles alone (a major reason behind IAF going for MMRCA). So infact its the J-11BS which should be compared with MKI, not the J-11B.


 
Can you tell me what roles the Su30MKI cant perform alone


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## rcrmj

shiningindia said:


> "made in china" means no guarantee
> no chinese pilot like to lose his life for cheap Chinese fighters.
> 
> :


 
lol you are searching on internet for very long, finally find something that you can mentalmasturbated on``well done! Can you contribute anything to this defence forum apart from being a clown trolling and flaming everywhere it involves with Pak and China?

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## applesauce

Storm Force said:


> Both J11 & SU30MKI are far superior planes to anything in most mid tech asian air forces
> 
> Brute power with great weapons load and multi role capability.
> 
> Great news for Both PLAAF & IAF.
> 
> The rest can look with ENVY


 
thats only because they cant afford it, russians will sell MKI(or version of it) to just about anyone(not having a conflict of interest with them that is)

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## CardSharp

XiNiX said:


> @belowfreezing,
> 
> well said.
> Infact in the number game IAF is far behind PLAAF.
> This was a remark made by our IAF Chief.
> 
> Indians dont live is Fools Paradise neglecting the realities.
> This surely will help us to prepare for the unprepared.


 
You missed his point. He is not implying that the IAF is qualitative better, lol, just that an air forces effectiveness comes from equipment, doctrine, and training. The J-11B isn't the only plane the PLAAF fields and it is not the only plane the Chinese aviation will come up with in the next few years. 

Also let's not forget the very important fact, that the J-11B is indigenous and India can't even repair the Su-30's engines at home, they have to ship the broken ones to Russia and in return be shipped a new engine. 

What this means in terms of replacing war time losses should be fairly clear.

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## CardSharp

Bigoren said:


> nope,you wrong.J11B is designed based on su-27 but its function better than su-30.


 
They are both built on the same airframe.


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## unicorn148

CardSharp said:


> You missed his point. He is not implying that the IAF is qualitative better, lol, just that an air forces effectiveness comes from equipment, doctrine, and training. The J-11B isn't the only plane the PLAAF fields and it is not the only plane the Chinese aviation will come up with in the next few years.
> 
> Also let's not forget the very important fact, that the J-11B is indigenous and India can't even repair the Su-30's engines at home, they have to ship the broken ones to Russia and in return be shipped a new engine.
> 
> What this means in terms of replacing war time losses should be fairly clear.


 
NO India has no such problem because the AL-31 Engines are manufactured in India only so we can repair them on our own.........


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## CardSharp

unicorn148 said:


> NO India has no such problem because the AL-31 Engines are manufactured in India only so we can repair them on our own.........


 
I'll take the words of a pilot over yours thanks.

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## Pakchina

SU 30MKI includes Israel avionics.


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## blackops

Pakchina said:


> SU 30MKI includes Israel avionics.


 
so what is wrong with that


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## blackops

CardSharp said:


> I'll take the words of a pilot over yours thanks.


 
yes we can repair them when we want to sir as they are made by hal 
as the statement states bellow 
_The Al-31FP is built in India by HAL at the Koraput facility under a deep technology transfer agreement.
_


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## SBD-3

unicorn148 said:


> Can you tell me what roles the Su30MKI cant perform alone


Airsuperiority and Strike.


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## SBD-3

applesauce said:


> thats only because they cant afford it, russians will sell MKI(or version of it) to just about anyone(not having a conflict of interest with them that is)


Infact, Russian have been offering their home grown, more advanced SU-35 to the new customers.


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## S10

Before you start comparing J-11B to Su-30MK, know there are significant differences between their intended functions. Su-30MK was imported from Russia for the Chinese navy, not air force, as a maritime strike platform along with JH-7A. It is a tandem seat fighter-bomber with the primary role of engaging surface targets. J-11B on the other hand, is a single seat A/C designed for air superiority. It serves with the air force, NOT navy. With this in mind, here are the differences:

- Su-30MK has a strengthened frame to carry extra air-to-ground payload compared to J-11B, making it a bit heavier.
- J-11B uses WS-10A engines, while Su-30MK uses Russian AL-31F engines
- A holographic HUD and 3 MFDs were installed on the J-11B as upgrade.
- New radar was installed on the J-11B, with plans to install AESA later on.
- J-11B is able to use PL-12 (SD-10) and PL-9, where Su-30MK requires imported R-77 and R-73.

I'm not going to make a comparison with Su-30MKI since it will only turn into a pissing contest.

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## below_freezing

Would the 2 pilot requirement of the Su-30 MKI be a problem in a real war? It effectively takes up 2 planes (pilots) per 1 plane, and we all know 1 thing: planes can be replaced in days, pilots can't.


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## Agnostic_Indian

how do two pilots work ? 
is it like one specialised in flying and other in weapon control ? 
do they always practice with same pare or selected few who know each others skill and style?


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## SR 71 Blackbird

Su 30 MKI will get AESA radar,reduction of RCS by a great deal and highly advanced electronics & also replacement of the Sura K HMS with Topsight E HMS.


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## SR 71 Blackbird

Main reason of the IAF going for MMRCA is the requirement of an aircraft due the replacement of the aging Migs.


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## SR 71 Blackbird

farhan_9909 said:


> j-11BS
> 
> Su 30MKi is over rated by indians,
> 
> and cost is very low 35-37 Million per aircraft.


Cost of Su 30 MKI as of 2010 is 56 million US$.


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## Agnostic_Indian

SR 71 Blackbird said:


> Su 30 MKI will get AESA radar,reduction of RCS by a great deal and highly advanced electronics & also replacement of the Sura K HMS with Topsight E HMS.


 
when ? by 2014 ? 
what is included in current modification of 40 mki's for brahmose ?


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## SR 71 Blackbird

bhagathsingh said:


> when ? by 2014 ?
> what is included in current modification of 40 mki's for brahmose ?


 
It includes new on-board computers electronic warfare systems along with the Zhuk AE(can track 32 targets and engage 8 simultaneously) Also there will RAM coatings.It is known as Super 30 upgrade.


----------



## below_freezing

SR 71 Blackbird said:


> Chinese can't even copy Apple i phone properly.In terms of quality they are even worse than late 1990's cell phones.Chinese tech is Jack of all Trades & Maste of one.They are even worse than he special effect of Chinese movies.


 
Post reported for having a low IQ.

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## Obambam

hasnain0099 said:


> Infact, Russian have been offering their home grown, more advanced SU-35 to the new customers.


 
The Russians will offer anything for money except their very latest =)


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## rockstarIN

Obambam said:


> The Russians will offer anything for money except their very latest =)


 
They even offer the very latest too in case of India..


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## punit

> nope,you wrong.J11B is designed based on su-27 but its function better than su-30.



u mean to say a reversed engineered copy is better than original. do not get blinded by own ignorance.


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## SQ8

punit said:


> u mean to say a reversed engineered copy is better than original. do not get blinded by own ignorance.


 
Goes both ways..


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## shree835

S10 said:


> Before you start comparing J-11B to Su-30MK, know there are significant differences between their intended functions. Su-30MK was imported from Russia for the Chinese navy, not air force, as a maritime strike platform along with JH-7A. It is a tandem seat fighter-bomber with the primary role of engaging surface targets. J-11B on the other hand, is a single seat A/C designed for air superiority. It serves with the air force, NOT navy. With this in mind, here are the differences:
> 
> - Su-30MK has a strengthened frame to carry extra air-to-ground payload compared to J-11B, making it a bit heavier.
> - J-11B uses WS-10A engines, while Su-30MK uses Russian AL-31F engines
> - A holographic HUD and 3 MFDs were installed on the J-11B as upgrade.
> - New radar was installed on the J-11B, with plans to install AESA later on.
> - J-11B is able to use PL-12 (SD-10) and PL-9, where Su-30MK requires imported R-77 and R-73.
> 
> I'm not going to make a comparison with Su-30MKI since it will only turn into a pissing contest.


 

I really don understand how a China Item can be compared with anything in this world...All people knows... China item is known in this word with ultimate outstanding crap quality with zero credibility.

Whenever I am coming across any Chinese Item...First thing is coming in my mind is Yuuuuukkkkk.


----------



## tallboy123

Peregrine said:


> hi
> Su-30 has 2-D TVC engine what about J-11b?


 
Su-30MKI has 3-D TVC,wat about J-11B?


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## S10

shree835 said:


> I really don understand how a China Item can be compared with anything in this world...All people knows... China item is known in this word with ultimate outstanding crap quality with zero credibility.
> 
> Whenever I am coming across any Chinese Item...First thing is coming in my mind is Yuuuuukkkkk.


Our crap worked well enough in 1962. Maybe when you decide to stop trolling....



tallboy123 said:


> Su-30MKI has 3-D TVC,wat about J-11B?


TVC is not planned for either J-11B or J-10B.


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## sancho

CardSharp said:


> I'll take the words of a pilot over yours thanks.


 


> The Engine Division at Koraput, a unit of HAL's vast network, has the unique distinction of being one amongst the few Aero Engine manufacturers in the world.
> 
> The spectrum of manufacturing facilities extends literally from the production of nuts and bolts to discs, shafts, blades, forgings and castings - all that are required to make an Aero Engine right from the Raw materials.
> 
> This spectrum is further enlarged to include overhaul of Aero Engines for the MiG family and supply of spares required during service.
> 
> *AL-31 FP engine*...



Welcome to Engine Division, Koraput of HAL


----------



## Obambam

shree835 said:


> I really don understand how a China Item can be compared with anything in this world...All people knows... China item is known in this word with ultimate outstanding crap quality with zero credibility.
> 
> Whenever I am coming across any Chinese Item...First thing is coming in my mind is Yuuuuukkkkk.


 
I think China can learn from India's space programs and borrow Indian software and technology. This way China can launch its first man into space.


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## Obambam

rockstar said:


> They even offer the very latest too in case of India..


 
I read your comment with my eyebrows raised. For the sake of national security, I seriously doubt that they would. Especially with India who is sandwiched inbetween Russia and America. I don't think Russia likes to let their best technology get into the hands of the Americans via India


----------



## sancho

S10 said:


> Before you start comparing J-11B to Su-30MK, know there are significant differences between their intended functions. Su-30MK was imported from Russia for the Chinese navy, not air force, as a maritime strike platform along with JH-7A. It is a tandem seat fighter-bomber with the primary role of engaging surface targets. J-11B on the other hand, is a single seat A/C designed for air superiority. It serves with the air force, NOT navy. With this in mind, here are the differences:
> 
> - Su-30MK has a strengthened frame to carry extra air-to-ground payload compared to J-11B, making it a bit heavier.
> - J-11B uses WS-10A engines, while Su-30MK uses Russian AL-31F engines
> - A holographic HUD and 3 MFDs were installed on the J-11B as upgrade.
> - New radar was installed on the J-11B, with plans to install AESA later on.
> - J-11B is able to use PL-12 (SD-10) and PL-9, where Su-30MK requires imported R-77 and R-73.
> 
> *I'm not going to make a comparison with Su-30MKI since it will only turn into a pissing contest*.


 
One of the better posts in this thread, because it's based on facts and specs, not on assumptions only!
But I think if we can add more of these facts here, it would not end up in a such a contest.

One of the basic misunderstandings imo, is the fact that Su 30MK versions are considered to be strike aircrafts, but that is not the case!

Su 27s (just like PLAAFs SKs) were air superiority fighters without strike capabilities. The Su 35 and 30 MK instead were the first Flanker versions that added these capabilities, which makes them useful in the strike role as well, but still mainly designed for air superiority. That is the reason why Su 30 MKKs were added to PLAAF, although they already had similar (but less capable) versions.
J11 is based on the Su 27SK air superiority fighter yes, but AFAIK (and S10 correct me if I'm wrong) at least the B version was multi role capable too. 
The heavier airframe of the Su 30 MK versions, comes mainly from the twin seat config, in WVR combats this obviously gives an advantage to J11, in terms of maneuverability. On the other hand, having 2 pilots / a weapon officer, is one of the biggest advantages of the MKK in the strike role again.
The Su 30 MKI has of course the same base as the MKK and the higher weight of the twin seat config gives him the same disadvantage in terms of maneuverability, but the key point is the different aim on the roles they are meant for!

You said the MKK was aimed on long range maritime strikes, which is possible by the fact that it is a multi role fighter, with useful radar and weapons for this role.
Indian MKI however was not meant to be a fighter mainly for the strike role, it was intended to be used in A2A and A2G! That's why IAF took the base MK with twin seat config and added features to make it even more capable in A2A. The higher weight compared to single seat Flanker versions (including Chinese) is partially countered with the addition of higher thrust engines + 2(.5)D TVC (2D TVC with a tilted angle, to provide some thrust direction in the yaw axis as well) + canards. This combo adds to its maneuverability and makes it the best twin seat Flanker version (together with the MKM) in this field and even for J11B, it will be a tough opponent here.
In BVR it gets even worse, because as you stated, J11 uses Chines weapons, not Russians, while MKI has R77 missiles and the Bars PESA radar. This combo provides MKI with the advantage of first sight, first shot and when we add the Israeli EWS and jammers for self protection, it should be clear why the MKI is considered to be a very capable fighter in A2A combats.
The twin seat config in this case is not really a disadvantage, at least against 3 to 4. gen fighters, or other Flanker versions (except Russian Su 35 and Su 34), but gives additional operational advantages as well. IAF uses the advantage of 2 pilots and mid air refuelling for long range and long endurance patrols, reportedly up to 9h!
In A2G it still remains to be as capable as all Su 30MK verions, but adding western avionics will be helpful here as well (French navigation systems, litening targeting pod...). 
Basically, the MKI does what Mig 29 and Mig 27 did before, but more capable as them and in both roles.
And because I already saw such a comment, no MKI is not perfect, but is one of the most capable fighters in South Asia at the moment. MMRCA as a fighter, is needed to complement MKI in certain areas, but as a competition has way more requirements than just the replacement of fighters.

That should explain the basic differents, I guess. J11 will be good air superiority fighters, like most of the Flanker series, but has some specific disadvantages to the MKI. Mainly because the MKI was aimed on different roles and beeing as multi role as possible.

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## SQ8

sancho said:


> One of the better posts in this thread, because it's based on facts and specs, not on assumptions only!
> But I think if we can add more of these facts here, it would not end up in a such a contest.
> 
> One of the basic misunderstandings imo, is the fact that Su 30MK versions are considered to be strike aircrafts, but that is not the case!
> 
> Su 27s (just like PLAAFs SKs) were air superiority fighters without strike capabilities. The Su 35 and 30 MK instead were the first Flanker versions that added these capabilities, which makes them useful in the strike role as well, but still mainly designed for air superiority. That is the reason why Su 30 MKKs were added to PLAAF, although they already had similar (but less capable) versions.
> J11 is based on the Su 27SK air superiority fighter yes, but AFAIK (and S10 correct me if I'm wrong) at least the B version was multi role capable too.
> The heavier airframe of the Su 30 MK versions, comes mainly from the twin seat config, in WVR combats this obviously gives an advantage to J11, in terms of maneuverability. On the other hand, having 2 pilots / a weapon officer, is one of the biggest advantages of the MKK in the strike role again.
> The Su 30 MKI has of course the same base as the MKK and the higher weight of the twin seat config gives him the same disadvantage in terms of maneuverability, but the key point is the different aim on the roles they are meant for!
> 
> You said the MKK was aimed on long range maritime strikes, which is possible by the fact that it is a multi role fighter, with useful radar and weapons for this role.
> Indian MKI however was not meant to be a fighter mainly for the strike role, it was intended to be used in A2A and A2G! That's why IAF took the base MK with twin seat config and added features to make it even more capable in A2A. The higher weight compared to single seat Flanker versions (including Chinese) is partially countered with the addition of higher thrust engines + 2(.5)D TVC (2D TVC with a tilted angle, to provide some thrust direction in the yaw axis as well) + canards. This combo adds to its maneuverability and makes it the best twin seat Flanker version (together with the MKM) in this field and even for J11B, it will be a tough opponent here.
> In BVR it gets *even worse*, because as you stated, J11 uses *Chines weapons*, not Russians, while MKI has R77 missiles and the Bars PESA radar. This combo provides MKI with the advantage of first sight, first shot and when we add the Israeli EWS and jammers for self protection, it should be clear why the MKI is considered to be a very capable fighter in A2A combats.
> The twin seat config in this case is not really a disadvantage, at least against 3 to 4. gen fighters, or other Flanker versions (except Russian Su 35 and Su 34), but gives additional operational advantages as well. IAF uses the advantage of 2 pilots and mid air refuelling for long range and long endurance patrols, reportedly up to 9h!
> In A2G it still remains to be as capable as all Su 30MK verions, but adding western avionics will be helpful here as well (French navigation systems, litening targeting pod...).
> Basically, the MKI does what Mig 29 and Mig 27 did before, but more capable as them and in both roles.
> And because I already saw such a comment, no MKI is not perfect, but is one of the most capable fighters in South Asia at the moment. MMRCA as a fighter, is needed to complement MKI in certain areas, but as a competition has way more requirements than just the replacement of fighters.
> 
> That should explain the basic differents, I guess. J11 will be good air superiority fighters, like most of the Flanker series, but has some specific disadvantages to the MKI. Mainly because the MKI was aimed on different roles and beeing as multi role as possible.


 
How is having Chinese weapons a disadvantage?


----------



## sancho

santro said:


> How is having Chinese weapons a disadvantage?


 
SD 10 having less range then R77. AFAIK J11s uses only Chinese weapons, while Su 27SK and 30 MKK uses Russians, but correct me if I'm wrong here.


----------



## localoca

sancho said:


> SD 10 having less range then R77. AFAIK J11s uses only Chinese weapons, while Su 27SK and 30 MKK uses Russians, but correct me if I'm wrong here.


 
the J-20 showed that everybody was wrong about China, now China its only behind U.S.A in fighter jet tech.. India can't even make a proper 4th gen...


----------



## aakash_2410

amalakas said:


> The Chinese Air-force is refusing to accept the J-11B for service as it has unacceptable leves of vibration during take-off under load and some g manauvres ..
> 
> so not really a vs contest until they become operational.


 
Well, obviously chinese won't buy these refurbished stuff. They're gonna have more J-20s. But how about exporting them to their 'ally'? loool  Just like Jf-17. Such a 4++ gen. [claimed by some members] but china didn't even buy a single aircraft.


----------



## aakash_2410

localoca said:


> the J-20 showed that everybody was wrong about China, now China its only behind U.S.A in fighter jet tech.. India can't even make a proper 4th gen...


 
loool Russia?! and look who's talking? And btw what was Tejas then?

Have you guys made even a SINGLE aircraft on your own?! Even your third generation JF-17 is chinese plane which they didn't even buy. hmmm. I wonder why? :$


----------



## localoca

aakash_2410 said:


> loool Russia?!


 Russia can't even make a proper 5th generation air plane, India can't even make a proper 4th gen fighter...

1st U.S.A with Raptor
2nd China with J-20 REAL stealth fighter
.
.
.
.
.
.India with LCA


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## S10

sancho said:


> Su 27s (just like PLAAFs SKs) were air superiority fighters without strike capabilities. The Su 35 and 30 MK instead were the first Flanker versions that added these capabilities, which makes them useful in the strike role as well, but still mainly designed for air superiority. That is the reason why Su 30 MKKs were added to PLAAF, although they already had similar (but less capable) versions.


Wrong. Su-30MK were specifically ordered for the navy, and landing gear and airframe was strengthened at Chinese request. In addition, its radar is optimized for air-to-surface missions. BARS was offered, but the navy decided they wanted something that Russian had in service, not a new product. It is much heavier than a standard Su-27SK and was never intended for use in air superiority role. You should know that the naval aviation is NOT tasked with air superiority. It's mission is quite simple: destroy sea targets.



> J11 is based on the Su 27SK air superiority fighter yes, but AFAIK (and S10 correct me if I'm wrong) at least the B version was multi role capable too.


Sure, you can say F-22 is multi-role too since it can also deploy air to ground munition, but it's not intended as such. 



> The heavier airframe of the Su 30 MK versions, comes mainly from the twin seat config, in WVR combats this obviously gives an advantage to J11, in terms of maneuverability. On the other hand, having 2 pilots / a weapon officer, is one of the biggest advantages of the MKK in the strike role again.
> The Su 30 MKI has of course the same base as the MKK and the higher weight of the twin seat config gives him the same disadvantage in terms of maneuverability, but the key point is the different aim on the roles they are meant for!
> 
> You said the MKK was aimed on long range maritime strikes, which is possible by the fact that it is a multi role fighter, with useful radar and weapons for this role.
> Indian MKI however was not meant to be a fighter mainly for the strike role, it was intended to be used in A2A and A2G! That's why IAF took the base MK with twin seat config and added features to make it even more capable in A2A. The higher weight compared to single seat Flanker versions (including Chinese) is partially countered with the addition of higher thrust engines + 2(.5)D TVC (2D TVC with a tilted angle, to provide some thrust direction in the yaw axis as well) + canards. This combo adds to its maneuverability and makes it the best twin seat Flanker version (together with the MKM) in this field and even for J11B, it will be a tough opponent here.


Fighter planes do not operate in a vaccum environment.



> In BVR it gets even worse, because as you stated, J11 uses Chines weapons, not Russians, while MKI has R77 missiles and the Bars PESA radar. This combo provides MKI with the advantage of first sight, first shot and when we add the Israeli EWS and jammers for self protection, it should be clear why the MKI is considered to be a very capable fighter in A2A combats.


Considering there is a difference betwen export SD-10 and PL-12 (range, seek etc), and also that PLAAF wasn't all that impressed with R-77, I'll take that with a grain of salt. A pretty big leap of faith for you to say that Su-30MKI will have the advantage of first sight and first shoot, not knowing much about J-11B.



> That should explain the basic differents, I guess. J11 will be good air superiority fighters, like most of the Flanker series, but has some specific disadvantages to the MKI. Mainly because the MKI was aimed on different roles and beeing as multi role as possible.


It's a little far fetched to come to that conclusion, when little of known of J-11B.


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## S10

sancho said:


> SD 10 having less range then R77. AFAIK J11s uses only Chinese weapons, while Su 27SK and 30 MKK uses Russians, but correct me if I'm wrong here.


SD-10 is the export version of PL-12, with reduced range and a different seeker. J-11B can carry Russian weapons, but Su-27SK and Su-30MKK were not compatible with Chinese weapons.


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## aakash_2410

localoca said:


> Russia can't even make a proper 5th generation air plane, India can't even make a proper 4th gen fighter...
> 
> 1st U.S.A with Raptor
> 2nd China with J-20 REAL stealth fighter
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .India with LCA


 
You've got to be kidding me. Russia not on the list? lool What is T-50 then? What ecatly is PROPER 5th generation aircraft?!

And btw at least India is on the list, pakistan is nowhere on the list.


----------



## localoca

aakash_2410 said:


> You've got to be kidding me. Russia not on the list? lool What is T-50 then?


 I didn't put Russia on the list but its in third place after China high tech...





aakash_2410 said:


> What ecatly is PROPER 5th generation aircraft?


 If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it Must be a Duck...


----------



## Obambam

Lets look at the bigger picture. America, China, India and Russia are all great countries which specializes in a range of things. Some are better at one thing and the others with other things. If only we get together collectively, then you can see how great we 'humans' have advanced and then truely appreciate our greatness. This list serves no positive purpose but to anger and polish our own egos.

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## CardSharp

Obambam said:


> Lets look at the bigger picture. America, China, India and Russia are all great countries which specializes in a range of things. Some are better at one thing and the others with other things. If only we get together collectively, then you can imagine how great we 'humans' have advanced and then truely appreciate our greatness. This list serves no positive purpose but to anger and polish our own egos.


 
Maybe when aliens invade. Without a 'them' there is no 'us',


it's human nature, sadly.

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## SomeGuy

tallboy123 said:


> Su-30MKI has 3-D TVC,wat about J-11B?


 
J-11B uses composites to reduce weight.
J-11B also has increased thrust with WS-10A engines.

J-11A already has greater T/W ratio than MKI. These two factors on J-11B increase it further. No need for TVC.


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## SomeGuy

sancho said:


> In BVR it gets even worse, because as you stated, J11 uses Chines weapons, not Russians, while MKI has R77 missiles and the Bars PESA radar. This combo provides MKI with the advantage of first sight, first shot and when we add the Israeli EWS and jammers for self protection, it should be clear why the MKI is considered to be a very capable fighter in A2A combats.


 


sancho said:


> SD 10 having less range then R77. AFAIK J11s uses only Chinese weapons, while Su 27SK and 30 MKK uses Russians, but correct me if I'm wrong here.


 
Not really.

The reason many people think that SD-10 has a lower range than R-77 is due to the fact that the manufacturers carry out tests at different altitudes and closing speeds. SD-10 is tested at lower altitudes and lower speeds than R-77 so the advertised range won't be as high.

Since altitude and speed are important factors in a missiles range, this brings me onto the second point:

J-11B can fly faster and higher than MKI. This would give the kinematic advantage to J-11B, increasing the missile ranges.


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## us1956

punit said:


> u mean to say a reversed engineered copy is better than original. do not get blinded by own ignorance.


 
based on and copy are 2 different things

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## sancho

S10 said:


> Wrong. Su-30MK were specifically ordered for the navy, and landing gear and airframe was strengthened at Chinese request. In addition, its radar is optimized for air-to-surface missions. It is much heavier than a standard Su-27SK and was never intended for use in air superiority role. You should know that the naval aviation is NOT tasked with air superiority.



You misunderstood it! I only wanted to show the difference between older Su 27 and multi role versions like J11, or Su 30 varients. Which means, that J11 is improved and not just a copy of the Su 27SK like some believe, also that the Su 30s are not simply a strike fighter, they are still capable in air superiority, but with multi role capabilities also in the strike role and it depends mainly on the techs, to which role it is more geared to. China might geared it for the anti ship role, which requires mainly some more radar modes, but the A2A capabilities of the Flankler remains the same. India added Bars, canards and TVC to gear it more for A2A, but still it's highly useful in A2G.
You can see it also at the Su 34, which is the Flanker version geared the most for the strike role, but by the fact that it also is a multi role fighter, it is capable in A2A, mainly in BVR of course. 
Btw, even the weight of the Su 35 is clearly higher than the weight of the Su 27SKs, because all improved versions got changes to beeing multi role capable. 



S10 said:


> Fighter planes do not operate in a vaccum environment.



Which means?



S10 said:


> Considering there is a difference betwen export SD-10 and PL-12 (range, seek etc), and also that PLAAF wasn't happy with R-77, I'll take that with a grain of salt.



The most reliable source that I saw on this forum, was from an air show or something like that in China and it was given with 70Km range, but of course the bigger difference is the radar.


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## S10

sancho said:


> You misunderstood it! I only wanted to show the difference between older Su 27 and multi role versions like J11, or Su 30 varients. Which means, that J11 is improved and not just a copy of the Su 27SK like some believe, also that the Su 30s are not simply a strike fighter, they are still capable in air superiority, but with multi role capabilities also in the strike role and it depends mainly on the techs, to which role it is more geared to. China might geared it for the anti ship role, which requires mainly some more radar modes, but the A2A capabilities of the Flankler remains the same. India added Bars, canards and TVC to gear it more for A2A, but still it's highly useful in A2G.
> You can see it also at the Su 34, which is the Flanker version geared the most for the strike role, but by the fact that it also is a multi role fighter, it is capable in A2A, mainly in BVR of course.
> 
> Btw, even the weight of the Su 35 is clearly higher than the weight of the Su 27SKs, because all improved versions got changes to beeing multi role capable.


J-11B is not heavier than Su-27SK.




> Which means?


Plane vs plane comparison is meaningless without taking into account the support network available.



> The most reliable source that I saw on this forum, was from an air show or something like that in China and it was given with 70Km range, but of course the bigger difference is the radar.


You do know that missiles have different range based on altitudes fired right? If you fire a SD-10 at high altitude against a low flying target, the range will be greater. The number itself means little without knowing the condition.

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## Obambam

CardSharp said:


> Maybe when aliens invade. Without a 'them' there is no 'us',
> 
> 
> it's human nature, sadly.


 
Quoted for truth.


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## applesauce

Obambam said:


> Quoted for truth.


 
with the number of planets their finding lately(including several in the liquid water zone) we might find the bogyman soon enough


----------



## CardSharp

applesauce said:


> with the number of planets their finding lately(including several in the liquid water zone) we might find the bogyman soon enough


 
Actually, when they decided to send a disc containing all the information about life on earth and where earth is, with the Voyager space probe, some scientists vehemently opposed it citing, it would be a blue print for aliens to invade earth with.


----------



## no_name

Be glad that the human gene code was not cracked and deciphered back then


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## CardSharp

no_name said:


> Be glad that the human gene code was not cracked and deciphered back then


 
But they totally know about DNA! They included a 3D model of it!


----------



## OldKool

poster vs the real thing...the latter wins!!!


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## tanlixiang28776

OldKool said:


> poster vs the real thing...the latter wins!!!


 
Could you clarify what you mean.


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## Bigoren

self deleted


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## Bigoren

self deleted


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## sancho

S10 said:


> J-11B is not heavier than Su-27SK.



Do you have a source with the latest specs of it?


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## HongWu

^ The specific weight is not public information. But it is public information that J-11B makes extensive use of composites. So, to recap:

J-11B's advantages
- fully indigenous including engines (= lower cost + maintenance + interoperability + wartime production)
- better AA missiles than Russian ones
- lighter airframe
- superior cockpit

MKI advantage
- TVC (assuming it works as advertised)

New photos of J-11B!

http://cnair.top81.cn/fighter/J-11B.jpg

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## S10

sancho said:


> Do you have a source with the latest specs of it?


CCTV did a interview with one of the program pilots, as well as several regular forum poster who worked for SAC had confirmed decreased weight compared to J-11A (Su-27SK built with Russian kit). In addition, WS-10A has greater thrust than AL-31F. Specifically how much decrease was not mentioned, but draw your own conclusion.

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## S-A-B-E-R->

guys can some one post pics of j 11b cockpit compaired to su30 ,been around the net but there r a lot of different layouts with same name 'j 11' so plz a little help...


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## IndianTiger

farhan_9909 said:


> j-11BS
> 
> Su 30MKi is over rated by indians,
> 
> and cost is very low 35-37 Million per aircraft.


 
jf 17 is jerk if cost only matters..


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## Whiplash

HongWu said:


> ^ The specific weight is not public information. But it is public information that J-11B makes extensive use of composites. So, to recap:
> 
> J-11B's advantages
> - fully indigenous including engines (= lower cost + maintenance + interoperability + wartime production)



Not true. Every last aspect is copied. By that logic even su 30 mki is indigenous coz we manufacrture the components in India


> - better AA missiles than Russian ones



Don't make me laugh



> - lighter airframe


Give me one link



> - superior cockpit



Because the great hong wu says so? 



> MKI advantage
> - TVC (assuming it works as advertised)
> 
> New photos of J-11B!
> 
> http://cnair.top81.cn/fighter/J-11B.jpg


 
So the one MKI advantage you could find a flaw in?

The MKI uses a superior radar. Better western avionics. A better EW suite.(Yes, the Israeli Jammers). And this is all available information.


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## madooxno9

superior cockpit

just writing superior does not make it one.... until we have both cockpits side by side....


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## localoca

HongWu said:


> ^ The specific weight is not public information. But it is public information that J-11B makes extensive use of composites. So, to recap:
> 
> J-11B's advantages
> - fully indigenous including engines (= lower cost + maintenance + interoperability + wartime production)
> - better AA missiles than Russian ones
> - lighter airframe
> - superior cockpit
> 
> MKI advantage
> - TVC (assuming it works as advertised)
> 
> New photos of J-11B!
> 
> http://cnair.top81.cn/fighter/J-11B.jpg



J-10B is Superior to Su30mki....


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## acetophenol

localoca said:


> J-10B is Superior to Su30mki....


Wao! Thank u for the information!


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## Chinese Century

su-30mki is the most overrated fighter jet.

the chinese J-11B has all of the features the mki has.


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## ChineseTiger1986

Chinese Century said:


> su-30mki is the most overrated fighter jet.
> 
> the chinese J-11B has all the features the mki has.



Does MKI have the AESA?

Never mind its underpowered engines.


----------



## golmaal

Chinese Century said:


> su-30mki is the most overrated fighter jet.
> 
> the chinese J-11B has all of the features the mki has.



Yeah that's why even PLAF is rejecting this airplane.. 
next you should copy full fighter design manual instead of half pages...


----------



## Roybot

Chinese Century said:


> su-30mki is the most overrated fighter jet.
> 
> the chinese J-11B has all of the features the mki has.



J-11 B is not Chinese.


----------



## vijayjha

looks like opium (i am referring the opium supply by British in china before WW2) affected the Chinese genes they can't think logically anymore.
all chinese products are copy of western or russian products chinese are really good in copying but not in innovation Indians are good in innovation but not in copying and for our pakistani friend they are still figuring it out what are they good in ("my suggestion ->they are good in finding someone who can help (by giving AID) the like USA China.......")


----------



## Zabaniyah

KS said:


> Ans equlally surely no one knows the exact range or the full power of the radars on MKI either.
> Even during the RED FLAG the Indian pilots were not allowed to switch on the full power of their radars.
> 
> 
> And someone saying that F-16 or F-15 outperforming MKI is pure Bullshyt.
> Even RAF Typhoon pilots felt that this plane was better or on par to theirs.
> 
> *The only two planes in service that could possibly defeat a MKI is the Raptor and the F-15 Silent eagle.*
> 
> Ofcourse any body could say that any plane can shoot down other in any given day..but going according to the reputation and specification i say that is the only possibility.









---------- Post added at 03:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:21 PM ----------




gowthamraj said:


> Man you have any clear source that indicates mig-29k have AESA radar



The Russian ones will have AESA.


----------



## Secur

vijayjha said:


> *all chinese products are copy of western or russian products chinese are really good in copying* but not in innovation Indians are good in innovation but not in copying and for our pakistani friend they are still figuring it out what are they good in ("my suggestion ->they are good in finding someone who can help (by giving AID) the like USA China.......")



Does it matter at the end of the day if its copied or developed ? Will you ask the Chinese this question during war ?  Isn't everything fair in war ? 
Yes , the Chinese used to reverse engineer ( not easy as your words seem to portray ) but now they are innovating ... J 20 Go figure out ! 

and we have an idea how much Indians are successful in Innovation with canceled and delayed projects like Kaveri and LCA ?
Could you develop the engine without foreign assistance ?  the reason Snecma is providing the core for engine for future AMCA ...
Every country needs some base to start ... The Chinese have done that , Indians are reluctant ... Their defense ministers know they can get kickbacks by importing so why innovate and develop at home ?

and i will ignore the same old crap about us ... We are doing well with Chinese military assistance ...

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## Heinz89

HongWu said:


> ^ The specific weight is not public information. But it is public information that J-11B makes extensive use of composites. So, to recap:
> 
> J-11B's advantages
> - fully indigenous including engines (= lower cost + maintenance + interoperability + wartime production)
> - better AA missiles than Russian ones
> - lighter airframe
> - superior cockpit
> 
> MKI advantage
> - TVC (assuming it works as advertised)
> 
> New photos of J-11B!
> 
> http://cnair.top81.cn/fighter/J-11B.jpg



What are the better Chinese AA missiles??? name them.... I bet they can't be better than R 77 or R 73...........

Also how can we judge two aircraft using cockpit design and indigenous products????????


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## Heinz89

Anyways SU 30MKK is better than the SU 30MKI............... according to that guise... Chinese J-11B could be better than Su 30MKI in fighter department........ considering the two seat configuration of the Su 30MKI...........


----------



## khail007

IndianTiger said:


> jf 17 is jerk if cost only matters..



Wake-up dude, this matter already been over and for your information title is 'J11B vs SU-30MKI'.

In fact such comparison are for technological discussion to gain knowledge but usually turned out to be troller's paradise - that is very un-fortunate.


----------



## Bharthi

*Su -30 MKI has better Engines *


*J-11B* -- Al-31F-	*All soviet Era Avionics*

*Su-30MKI* -- *Al-31FP* ,*Israeli *LITENING targeting pod,*Israeli *Elta EL/M-8222 a self-protection jammer,French *SAGEM* Sigma-95 integrated global positioning system and ring laser gyroscope inertial navigation system.


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## Emmie

Bharthi said:


> *Su -30 MKI has better Engines *
> 
> 
> J-11B -- Al-31F
> Su-30MKI -- Al-31FP



With what respect? TVC?


----------



## punisher

Heinz89 said:


> Anyways SU 30MKK is better than the SU 30MKI............... according to that guise... Chinese J-11B could be better than Su 30MKI in fighter department........ considering the two seat configuration of the Su 30MKI...........



ok dude, What eva advantages that MKi holds you will make it minute, And you will see JF-17, F-16,J-10B,J-11B in magnified glass. Yeah MKK is better than MKI. happy now


----------



## The enlightened

Heinz89 said:


> Anyways* SU 30MKK is better than the SU 30MKI*............... according to that guise... Chinese J-11B could be better than Su 30MKI in fighter department........ *considering the two seat configuration of the Su 30MKI*...........


and how did you assume that
please feel free to explain to us the parameters on which u decided that mkk are better
and how does a 'two seat configuration' make Su 30mki weaker in 'fighter department'


----------



## Jon Snow

Its hard to be sure about the specs - most sources claim that it currently uses some russian equipment which will be replaced by chinese equipment soon - since it's hard to find reliable sources for performance specs of chinese equipment my analysis takes into account russian equipment only.
Engines - AL -31F for the J-11 and the AL-31FP for the Su30mki - the AL-31FP is basically an improved version of the AL-31F.
But the engines of the J-11 are supposed to be changed to WS-10A taihing - dont know much about them so no comment.
Maneuverability - Giving this to the Su-30mki easy - with canards and TVC I doubt anything could match it in this department.
Radar - The J-11 is equiped with the NIIP Tikhomirov N001VE - with a tracking range of 80-100km ( this radar is old tech from the 80s)- however its soon to be replaced by the chinese AESA radar - again no specs available.
The Su-30mki is equipped with the NIIP N011M Bars which has a tracking range of 200km but this is also to be replaced by a Russian Zhuk AE - the prototype fielded in the MMRCA trials was the FGA-29 - this is not the production model - the production variant for the mig 35 is the FGA 35 which has a 700mm antenna and a range of 200km. however considering that the su 30mki has a much larger nose than the mig 35 and we can fit a lot more modules into it (thereby increasing the range of the radar) we can predict it will have a range of around 250-300km.
IRST - the J-11 has the OLS 27 (soon to be replaced by the chinese model) while the su 30mki has the OLS 30 ( an improved variant of the OLS 30)
Avionics and EWS - No info available but I doubt that the chinese ones could be as good as the French and Israeli systems seen on the Su-30mki.
RCS - this is one place where the J 11 will have an advantage - it has reduced RCS ( dont know by how much) - but we can be reasonably sure it will be around or probably slightly bigger than the su 35(1 m2) , while the Su 30mki has 10m2 - though this will also come down to some extent after upgradation.
So on paper it would seem that the MKI has the advantage for the real thing you'd need to put them against each other(lets hope we never see that day)


----------



## turkish

Secur said:


> Does it matter at the end of the day if its copied or developed ? Will you ask the Chinese this question during war ?  Isn't everything fair in war ?
> Yes , the Chinese used to reverse engineer ( not easy as your words seem to portray ) but now they are innovating ... J 20 Go figure out !
> 
> and we have an idea how much Indians are successful in Innovation with canceled and delayed projects like Kaveri and LCA ?
> Could you develop the engine without foreign assistance ?  the reason Snecma is providing the core for engine for future AMCA ...
> Every country needs some base to start ... The Chinese have done that , Indians are reluctant ... Their defense ministers know they can get kickbacks by importing so why innovate and develop at home ?
> 
> and i will ignore the same old crap about us ... We are doing well with Chinese military assistance ...



I understand from your post that Chinese are good... but what are you.. their Pimp...Atleast we make something, what you do, and what you made... Dont say JF 17, its the same like Australian contribution F35...


----------



## turkish

HongWu said:


> ^ The specific weight is not public information. But it is public information that J-11B makes extensive use of composites. So, to recap:
> 
> J-11B's advantages
> - fully indigenous including engines (= lower cost + maintenance + interoperability + wartime production)
> - better AA missiles than Russian ones
> - lighter airframe
> - superior cockpit
> 
> MKI advantage
> - TVC (assuming it works as advertised)
> 
> New photos of J-11B!
> 
> http://cnair.top81.cn/fighter/J-11B.jpg



Your post is as weird as your name....


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## khanz4996

how can indians say J11 is a copy while their SU30IZV is russian fighter assembled in india thats it india cant even do the reverse engineering india is best in software not in hardware like china.china applaused for their achievement of devolping such a high tech weapon system on their own.TODAY INDIA SAYS J11 IS A COPY OF SU27 BECAUSE IT LOOKS LIKE ONE TOMORROW THEY WILL SAY JF17 IS A COPY OF FA-18 BECAUSE IT LOOKS LIKE THAT AND THE DAY AFTER THEY WILL SAY J20 IS A COPY OF F35 BECAUSE IT LOOKS LIKE THAT.WHAT ABOUT RUSSIA THEN IT COPIED MIG35 FROM F15.THIS IS SO STUPID AND I BET ALL ARE CHILDREN HERE

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## The enlightened

khanz4996 said:


> how can indians say J11 is a copy while their SU30IZV is russian fighter assembled in india thats it india cant even do the reverse engineering india is best in software not in hardware like china.china applaused for their achievement of devolping such a high tech weapon system on their own.TODAY INDIA SAYS J11 IS A COPY OF SU27 BECAUSE IT LOOKS LIKE ONE TOMORROW THEY WILL SAY JF17 IS A COPY OF FA-18 BECAUSE IT LOOKS LIKE THAT AND THE DAY AFTER THEY WILL SAY J20 IS A COPY OF F35 BECAUSE IT LOOKS LIKE THAT.WHAT ABOUT RUSSIA THEN IT COPIED MIG35 FROM F15.THIS IS SO STUPID AND I BET ALL ARE CHILDREN HERE




.........
..........
................

listen moron, get your facts first, then distort them as you please.


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## khanz4996

The enlightened said:


> .........
> ..........
> ................
> 
> listen moron, get your facts first, then distort them as you please.


so the enlightened moron should spell his facts out


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## SomeGuy

Jon Snow said:


> Its hard to be sure about the specs - most sources claim that it currently uses some russian equipment which will be replaced by chinese equipment soon - since it's hard to find reliable sources for performance specs of chinese equipment my analysis takes into account russian equipment only.
> Engines - AL -31F for the J-11 and the AL-31FP for the Su30mki - the AL-31FP is basically an improved version of the AL-31F.
> But the engines of the J-11 are supposed to be changed to WS-10A taihing - dont know much about them so no comment.



Both AL-31F and AL-31FP produce same amount of thrust.
Only advantage is that AL-31FP has thrust vectoring.



Jon Snow said:


> Maneuverability - Giving this to the Su-30mki easy - with canards and TVC I doubt anything could match it in this department.



There are other factors in J-11B's favour though, for example, lower weight, coupled with supposedly higher thrust of WS-10A would give the J-11B a higher T/W ratio. J-11B is said to have higher top speed and service ceiling than MKI.

Also, since the J-11B and the MKI have nearly the same airframe, but the MKI is much heavier, the J-11B would have lighter wing loading - normally this would give the J-11B an advantage in climb rate, turning performance, but like you said the MKI has canards and thrust vectoring so who knows? It would be interesting to see how all these various factors come into play to affect overall performance.



Jon Snow said:


> Radar - The J-11 is equiped with the NIIP Tikhomirov N001VE - with a tracking range of 80-100km ( this radar is old tech from the 80s)- however its soon to be replaced by the chinese AESA radar - again no specs available.
> The Su-30mki is equipped with the NIIP N011M Bars which has a tracking range of 200km but this is also to be replaced by a Russian Zhuk AE - the prototype fielded in the MMRCA trials was the FGA-29 - this is not the production model - the production variant for the mig 35 is the FGA 35 which has a 700mm antenna and a range of 200km. however considering that the su 30mki has a much larger nose than the mig 35 and we can fit a lot more modules into it (thereby increasing the range of the radar) we can predict it will have a range of around 250-300km.



The J-11B doesn't have the NIIP Tikhomirov N001VE radar.
It has a indigenous chinese radar with a search range supposedly >150km



Jon Snow said:


> IRST - the J-11 has the OLS 27 (soon to be replaced by the chinese model) while the su 30mki has the OLS 30 ( an improved variant of the OLS 30)
> Avionics and EWS - No info available but I doubt that the chinese ones could be as good as the French and Israeli systems seen on the Su-30mki.



If the story about the J-10 and the Vietnamese Su-30's are true, then I should think they should be very decent.



Jon Snow said:


> RCS - this is one place where the J 11 will have an advantage - it has reduced RCS ( dont know by how much) - but we can be reasonably sure it will be around or probably slightly bigger than the su 35(1 m2) , while the Su 30mki has 10m2 - though this will also come down to some extent after upgradation.



I don't think that the RCS reduction is as significant as some people think.
I saw somewhere on another forum some chinese guy posted a video capture of J-11B with some Chinese writing and they said that the writing indicated that the RCS was 4m2.



Jon Snow said:


> So on paper it would seem that the MKI has the advantage for the real thing you'd need to put them against each other(lets hope we never see that day)

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## Secur

turkish said:


> I understand from your post that Chinese are good... but what are you.. their Pimp...Atleast we make something, what you do, and what you made... Dont say JF 17, its the same like Australian contribution F35...


 Praising someone = pimping in your view  Start again from Kindergarten kiddo ... and you will be able to increase your post count better instead of these idiotic posts ...

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## The enlightened

khanz4996 said:


> how can indians say J11 is a copy while their SU30IZV is russian fighter assembled in india thats it *2. india cant even do the reverse engineering* india is best in software not in hardware like china.china applaused for their achievement of devolping such a high tech weapon system on their own.TODAY* 3. INDIA SAYS J11 IS A COPY OF SU27* BECAUSE IT LOOKS LIKE ONE TOMORROW THEY WILL SAY JF17 IS A COPY OF FA-18 BECAUSE IT LOOKS LIKE THAT AND THE DAY AFTER THEY WILL SAY J20 IS A COPY OF F35 BECAUSE IT LOOKS LIKE THAT.WHAT ABOUT *4. RUSSIA THEN IT COPIED MIG35 FROM F15*.THIS IS SO STUPID AND I BET ALL ARE CHILDREN HERE


1.firstly its not su 30izv its mki
2.india might be able to reverse engineer things too
but the things is that some people still have ;what we like to call 'self respect'
3.are you physically and mentally handicapped; j-11 is a complete copy of su27;and indians aren't the only one that say it; anybody with a pair of eyes and little education[kindergardeners too]
will say that j 11 is a copy
4. now what was that
'mig 35 a copy of f-15'
i think i have wasted enough time on you 

i&#8217;ll try being nicer if you try being smarter

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## Secur

> 2.india might be able to reverse engineer things too
> but the things is that some people still have ;what we like to call 'self respect'


 Your people very much wish to reverse engineer but the sad fact is that they are unable to ...

Beg, borrow or steal: IAF chief's advice to defence scientists - Times Of India
*NEW DELHI: "Beg, borrow or steal", was the advice the Indian Air Force (IAF) chief, Air Chief Norman Anil Kumar Browne, had for defence scientists Wednesday for developing critical technologies for the armed forces.
*


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## khanz4996

The enlightened said:


> 1.firstly its not su 30izv its mki
> 2.india *might be able to reverse engineer things too*
> but the things is that some people still have ;what we like to call *'self respect'*
> 3.are you physically and mentally handicapped; j-11 is a complete copy of su27;and indians aren't the only one that say it; anybody with a pair of eyes and little education[kindergardeners too]
> will say that j 11 is a copy
> 4. now what was that
> 'mig 35 a copy of f-15'
> i think i have wasted enough time on you
> 
> i&#8217;ll try being nicer if you try being smarter


1st u r trying to make TEJAS from 1982 in 30 years u could not make it operational that can give u alot of self respect
2nd AS U SAID INDIA MIGHT BE ABLE TO(FUTURE TENSE) REVERSE ENGINEER BUT IS NOT ABLE TO BECAUSE IT NEEDS BRAINS AND STATE OF THE FACILITIES WHICH INDIA LACKS
3RD IF I AM PHYSICALLY AND MENTALLY HANDICAPPED THEN U ARE POSTING FROM A MENTAL HOSPITAL LOL
4TH CHECK OUT MIG35 AND F15 STRIKE EAGLE PICTURES AND CHECK OUT THE SIMILARITY IN DESIGN AND LOOKS EXACTLY THE SAME AND IF U CANT SPOT IT THEN YOU SHOULD GO TO A NICE OPTICIAN TO CHECK UR EYESIGHT IT SHOULD BE LOW(NOT MIGHT BE LOW

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## Dr. Strangelove



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## The enlightened

Secur said:


> Your people very much wish to reverse engineer but the sad fact is that they are unable to ...
> 
> Beg, borrow or steal: IAF chief's advice to defence scientists - Times Of India
> *NEW DELHI: "Beg, borrow or steal", was the advice the Indian Air Force (IAF) chief, Air Chief Norman Anil Kumar Browne, had for defence scientists Wednesday for developing critical technologies for the armed forces.
> *


anyone with little knowledge of english will know that
he used it as a metaphor


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## Secur

The enlightened said:


> anyone with little knowledge of english will know that
> he used it as a metaphor


 Well he was showing "desperation" at the DRDO lack of delivering things ...


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## punisher

LOl 

@ Indians why to argue with m....s let them believe what ever they want. I bet even if we bring 5gen JET they will start countering with JF-17 + AWACS.

@Chinese and Pakistani's yeah guys OUR Mig-29, Mirage2k5, su-30mki MKI, Rafale/Typhoon, even FGFA... are inferior to JF-17, F-16blk 15 and 52, J-10B and J-11B. any thing else guys. Is your ego's satisfied.

---------- Post added at 09:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:00 PM ----------




Secur said:


> Well he was showing "desperation" at the DRDO lack of delivering things ...



Atleast they are trying. Whats your problem. It's our internal matters, Look at your own.

I guess you have lot of insecure feeling.


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## Secur

punisher said:


> Atleast they are trying. Whats your problem. It's our internal matters, Look at your own.
> 
> I guess you have lot of insecure feeling.


 Why would i feel insecure ? ... I was just replying to a problematic post by another poster ... Internal matter ?  I thought we were here to discuss right ?


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## Cool_Soldier

Well, Once PN gets this J11-B, then we will compare it with MKi over arabian sea or Indian ocean


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## Secur

punisher said:


> LOl
> 
> @ Indians why to argue with m....s let them believe what ever they want. I bet even if we bring 5gen JET they will start countering with JF-17 + AWACS.
> 
> @Chinese and Pakistani's yeah guys OUR Mig-29, Mirage2k5, su-30mki MKI, Rafale/Typhoon, even FGFA... are inferior to JF-17, F-16blk 15 and 52, J-10B and J-11B. any thing else guys. Is your ego's satisfied
> 
> Atleast they are trying. Whats your problem. It's our internal matters, Look at your own.
> 
> I guess you have lot of insecure feeling.



What sort of post was that ? We were discussing J11B vs Su30 MKI right ?
What would someone even reply to this post ? As for the hatred , its reciprocal still i try to post unbiased views ... Check my post in Indian defense section


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## Jon Snow

SomeGuy said:


> Both AL-31F and AL-31FP produce same amount of thrust.
> Only advantage is that AL-31FP has thrust vectoring.


they may have the same thrust but the al 31f was introduced in 1981 while the al 31fp was introduced in 2000 - there may very well be improvements in life cycle costs , flying hours etc.



> There are other factors in J-11B's favour though, for example, lower weight, coupled with supposedly higher thrust of WS-10A would give the J-11B a higher T/W ratio. J-11B is said to have higher top speed and service ceiling than MKI.
> 
> Also, since the J-11B and the MKI have nearly the same airframe, but the MKI is much heavier, the J-11B would have lighter wing loading - normally this would give the J-11B an advantage in climb rate, turning performance, but like you said the MKI has canards and thrust vectoring so who knows? It would be interesting to see how all these various factors come into play to affect overall performance.



according to all specs I could find the climb rate of both is nearly the same (300m/s) as is the thrust to weight ratio -1.1.(though according to wiki t/w of j-11 is slightly lower at 1.04)
wing loading of the j-11b is indeed slightly lower - 371kg/m2 as compared to the 401kg/m2 of MKI - doesnt seem enough of an davantage to equal TVC and canards



> The J-11B doesn't have the NIIP Tikhomirov N001VE radar.
> It has a indigenous chinese radar with a search range supposedly >150km


links??? Wiki says its NIIP Tikhomirov N001VE to be replaced by a chinese AESA - if they are going to replace it with AESA it would be a waste of money first to replace the N001VE with chinese PESA and then again by AESA.



> If the story about the J-10 and the Vietnamese Su-30's are true, then I should think they should be very decent.


I really doubt that story - it would have been an international incident - anyways I am not doubting the capabilities of chinese avionics. all I am saying is that it is unlikely (but possible I'll admit) that they are better than Israeli anf French(who are known for their EWS and avionics)



> I don't think that the RCS reduction is as significant as some people think.
> I saw somewhere on another forum some chinese guy posted a video capture of J-11B with some Chinese writing and they said that the writing indicated that the RCS was 4m2.


Agreed


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## ViXuyen

Why do people still believing in the J-10 vs Vietnam's Su30 incident? Take this fact, Vietnam's Su30 is based solely in the South along with Su27, none of the Flankers is in the north of Viet Nam

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## SomeGuy

Jon Snow said:


> according to all specs I could find the climb rate of both is nearly the same (300m/s) as is the thrust to weight ratio -1.1.(though according to wiki t/w of j-11 is slightly lower at 1.04)
> wing loading of the j-11b is indeed slightly lower - 371kg/m2 as compared to the 401kg/m2 of MKI - doesnt seem enough of an davantage to equal TVC and canards



Those figures are for the J-11A.
The J-11B manages to cut about 700kg of weight and uses increased thrust WS-10A engines, which should give a T/W ratio of about 1.17. Also, someone at Wiki hasn't checked their math - T/W for MKI is (2 x 27,600 lbf) / 54,895 lb loaded weight = 1.01



Jon Snow said:


> links??? Wiki says its NIIP Tikhomirov N001VE to be replaced by a chinese AESA - if they are going to replace it with AESA it would be a waste of money first to replace the N001VE with chinese PESA and then again by AESA.



The N001VE is for J-11A.
J-11B has a different radar, according to this article:



> A PLAAF J-11B was landing carrying PL-8 and PL-12 AAMs underneath its wings. This demonstrates Chinese's effort to integrate their own weapon systems into a classic Russian design in order to further boost its combat capability and survivability. *Their effort includes a Chinese multifunction PD radar (Type 1474? search >150km, track 6-8, engage 4 simultaneously)* and 1553B databus compatible with PL-8, PL-12, and the newest PL-15 AAM, a Chinese made IRST/LR, as well as a redesigned glass cockpit featuring 5 MFDs and a new wide-angle holographic HUD. The aircraft also has a new UV band missile approach warning system (MAWS). Two sensors are installed on both sides of the tail sting to provide coverage for the rear hemisphere. Its weight has been reduced by 700kg by using composite materials at various places. In addition, RAM coating was speculated to have been applied in certain areas such as engine intakes to reduce RCS but this has not been confirmed. The AL-31F engine has been replaced by the indigenous WS-10. One WS-10 (Taihang 13,200kg class) turbofan was successfully tested on a CFTE J-11WS engine testbed in June 2002. The first J-11B prototype powered by WS-10 flew in 2004. At least 3 prototypes are being tested at CFTE (#523, 524, 525), each has different configurations to test individual subsystems in order to speed up the development. The first batch of J-11B entered the service with PLAAF 1st Division (S/N 10x2x) in late 2007. However the initial batch of J-11Bs powered by the indigenous WS-10 turbofans were quickly grounded due to the poor quality of the engine. Subsequent batches were forced to be powered by Russian AL-31F turbofans until WS-10's reliability problem was solved. Recent images (December 2009) suggested that the engine quality problem has been solved and the aircraft (02 batch?) has started to fly with WS-10s installed. Currently more J-11Bs are entering the service with PLAAF (S/N 31x0x), powered by WS-10 engines. It was rumored that PLAN started to receive land-based J-11Bs (as J-11BH?) in spring 2010, wearing a light gray camouflage (S/N 81x8x).

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## ChineseTiger1986

5Star said:


> Why do people still believing in the J-10 vs Vietnam's Su30 incident? Take this fact, Vietnam's Su30 is based solely in the South along with Su27, none of the Flankers is in the north of Viet Nam



The J-10 does have the air refueling capability, it can cover the southern tip of the South China Sea without any problem.


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## ViXuyen

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The J-10 does have the air refueling capability, it can cover the southern tip of the South China Sea without any problem.


did not your media mention that the incident happened in the North of Viet Nam? Now you change the story knowing that no Flanker of Viet Nam ever based in the North?


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## isro2222

J-11B VS su-30MKI comparision should be made in avionics.... And not in the weight. Su-30MKI is the best jet fighter in asia due to what it uses inside it. Su-30MKI can kill any jet fighter of asia. Although i doubt it can take on F-22 and Eurofighter typhoon because their avionics bit ahead then su-30MKI.... About vietnaam su-30 was just a jet fighter with no capability. If vietnaam were using Su-30MKI then chinese jet fighter would have been dead.... India even threaten chinese navy ship and warned that next time they try to mess in indian ocean than su-30MKI would jam their ship totaly. This shows what Su-30MKI using. India should thank europe for it.... Our next step should be to upgrade vietnaam jetfighters with latest avionics. Todays war mostly depends on avionics. Su-30 is a great jetfighter but without good avionics its just a normal jetfighter....

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## DESERT FIGHTER

isro2222 said:


> J-11B VS su-30MKI comparision should be made in avionics.... And not in the weight. Su-30MKI is the best jet fighter in asia due to what it uses inside it. Su-30MKI can kill any jet fighter of asia. Although i doubt it can take on F-22 and Eurofighter typhoon because their avionics bit ahead then su-30MKI.... About vietnaam su-30 was just a jet fighter with no capability. If vietnaam were using Su-30MKI then chinese jet fighter would have been dead.... India even threaten chinese navy ship and warned that next time they try to mess in indian ocean than su-30MKI would jam their ship totaly. This shows what Su-30MKI using. India should thank europe for it.... Our next step should be to upgrade vietnaam jetfighters with latest avionics. Todays war mostly depends on avionics. Su-30 is a great jetfighter but without good avionics its just a normal jetfighter....



GODS GIFT TO AVIATION!

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## zon95

*Compared: Su-30MKI vs J-11B 
*
*Maneuverability*

No need to argue that the Su-30MKI to say is the most powerful variant of the Su-30 family that had built Sukhoi. India is a strategic partner of Russia is particularly important, so do not be surprised when they spent New Delhi for the special offers.

Su-30MKI is developed on the basis of the framework of the Su-27 fighter this share to 85% hardware fighter 4 + + generation Su-35 modernization of Russia. Su-30MKI most used electronic systems produced by India, later upgraded variant uses electronic systems mixture Russia - France - India - Israel turned its fighters into multi nationality.






*At maneuverability with canards, thrust vector engines, the Su-30MKI clearly superior to J-11.*

Strengths of the Su-30MKI of the aerodynamics is equipped with canards help supplement this fighter more maneuverable in close-range combat situations. In addition, the Su-30MKI is equipped with AL-31FP engines with thrust vector capability. That is, the engine nozzle capable of moving up and down in the plane ± 15 degrees (this engine was a precursor of the engine thrust vector control manifold).

The combination of canards with thrust vector engines for Su-30MKI to be superior in air combat situations. Meanwhile, the J-11 does not have canards, though it inherited characteristics Vietnam aerodynamic advantages of Su-27 family, but not by maneuverable Su-30MKI.

On the other hand, only J-11 is equipped with AL-31F engines do not have thrust vector capability, equipped with the WS-10A engine produced by China are even worse. In terms of maneuverability, formidable Su-30MKI than J-11.

*Avionics*

*Su-30MKI is equipped with electronic systems multinationals (Russia, France, India and Israel)*, while the J-11 is equipped with electronic systems mainly due to Chinese manufacturers.

"Heart" of the Su-30MKI's radar phased N011M Bars passive electronically, this is a multi-mode radar with digital dual-band.

N011M Bars provide supervisory regime for not, the sea, the land at the same time. Radar is capable of detecting targets at distances up to 400km, track targets at a distance of 200km and 60km Hemisphere Hemisphere before then. N011M capable of tracking 15 targets and attack four targets simultaneously.

Help for N011M Bars radar station is located OLS-30 laser optics, this is a combination of search systems and infrared target designation system IRST and laser target designation. Target detection range of up to 90km OLS-30, target displayed on the LCD screen in the cockpit similar to radar.





*"God's eyes" of the Su-30MKI (on) more powerful in every way than the kind of J-11B (below).*

Meanwhile, J-11 is equipped with radar N001V TS101M processor is only capable of simultaneously tracking 10 targets and guide missiles kill a single target. Radar is capable of detecting the target area radar 3M2 feedback reach 100km range hemisphere hemisphere before and after 40km, the search range is 240km maximum target.

Variations improved J-11B is equipped with radar N001VE processor is capable of guiding the missile attack two targets simultaneously. Support for the radar system N001V/VE search and target designation OLS-27 infrared search range up to 70km target.

In electronic systems Su-30MKI continues outperformed J-11, upgraded variant Sukhoi Su-30MKI Super will be equipped with radar active phased electronic AESA radar Zhuk-EA is more powerful.

*weapons*

Basically, weapons payload of Su-30MKI and the J-11 is similar (8 tons). However, the Su-30MKI is equipped with weapons that have dreamed J-11 does not have to be. One of the weapons "independent" of the Su-30MKI is a supersonic cruise missile BrahMos.Voi 300km range, BrahMos is indeed "a nightmare" for any objective ground / sea level to.

Besides, India also plans to integrate Nirbhay cruise missile with a range of 1,000 km to the Su-30MKI. India also offered with MBDA Group (Europe) to integrate "assassins kill up" Brimstone for the Su-30MKI fighters.

Meanwhile, ground-attack weapons and the most powerful strength that J-11 can be used as cruise missiles, ground attack Kh-59 at a range of 115km, along with anti-radar missiles Kh-31P.Xet the possibility of soil, J-11 is very much underdogs against Su-30MKI.





*Su-30MKI can carry more weapons that J-11 can not get, such as missile BrahMos supersonic anti-ship missiles, A2A long-range missile Novator K-100, ASTRA.
*

Back-to-air weapons, in addition to the main missile like R-73, R-27, R-77 that the Su-30MKI and the J-11 is equipped with the Su-30MKI is a weapon of "crisis" other J-11 does not have the missiles do not reach super far Novator K-100.


Novator K-100 has a range of up to 300 kilometers, is specially designed to destroy aircraft commander and early warning of enemy air (AWACS). In addition, India also offered to help integrate group MBDA missiles Meteor was not out of sight range of 100 km for the Su-30MKI. With no weapons of Su-30MKI continues outperformed J-11.





*ASTRA is designed to destroy targets from a distance of 20-110km with a maximum operating altitude of 20-35km.*





*India has also proposed MBDA Meteor missile integrated into SU-30MKI fighter of them*

J-11B






In mid-2002, SAC unveiled its intention to build an upgraded multirole version of the J-11 by revealing a mock-up aircraft carrying various types of air-to-air and air-to-surface missiles. Russian sources also confirmed that SAC was pursuing a multirole variant of the J-11 designated J-11B with much greater Chinese-made content. At least three examples (#523, #524, and #525) of the J-11B have been delivered to the China Flight Test Establishment (CFTE) for flight test and evaluation since 2006. The aircraft was based on the Su-27SK/J-11 airframe, but with the following modifications:

An indigenous multifunctional pulse-Doppler fire-control radar reportedly capable of tracking 6~8 targets and engaging 4 of them simultaneously;
An indigenous digital flight-control system;
A Chinese copy of the Russian OEPS-27 electro-optic search and tracking system;
A strapdown INS/GPS navigation system;
A &#8216;glass&#8217; cockpit featuring four colour multifunctional displays (MFD) and a wide-angle holographic head-up display (HUD);






The difference in the electronic system than the Su-27 include:
- A system that detects targets by Chinese IRST Infrared alternative design for OLS-27 system.
- A phased array radar similar to radar Zhuk-27, it covers your specific system distinguishes IFF.
- Pressurization and oxygen systems integrated in the new J-11B OBOGS appear before Russian equipment similar system in their products.
- The glass cockpit is designed quite nicely with asymmetrical layout is completely different from the variant and the Su-27SMKs Su-30MKK/MK2.
- A system of missile warning sensor optical Maws was declared operational in the ultraviolet spectrum.
- Dielectric sheet stability not seen in any of the Russian variant.

Thus, the J-11B can be seen as an offshoot of the Flanker family is not entirely a copy of the Su-27SK.

The aircraft could carry the Chinese-made PL-8 IR-homing SRAAM and PL-12 active radar-homing MRAAM for air-to-air combat. While the PLAAF currently has the capability for two-target engagement using the Su-27/-30 and R-77 (AA-12 Adder) combination, successful integration of the PL-12 on the J-11B would likely provide a genuine multi-target engagement capability. The J-11B is also expected to have enhanced air-to-surface attack capabilities with the indigenous precision strike ammunitions such as LT-2 laser-guided bomb, the LS-6 precision-guided glide bomb, the YJ-91 (Kh-31P) anti-radiation missile, and the KD-88 air-to-surface missile.

During the 6th Zhuhai Air Show held between 31 October and 5 November 2006, China revealed first official details about the indigenously developed FWS-10A &#8216;TaiHang&#8217; turbofan engine. The engine had already been successfully tested on a modified Su-27K fighter and possibly on some J-11 airframes too. The engine is understood to be similar to the Russian Lyulka-Saturn AL-31F turbofan engine in both technology and performance. However, it is unclear whether the FWS-10A has already been fitted on the 'indigenised' variant of the J-11.

On a side specs alone, the* Su-30MKI must stomp J-11* in all indicators. However, anyone who would win in a real dogfight if it depends on many factors other objective and subjective.

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## drunken-monke

Two different aircrafts with different purpose..

MKI is airsuperiority and frontline fighter for India where as J11B wont do that role for PLAF... PLAF have J10B and forthcoming J20 for that role.. For India, they have to rely on MKI till they get FGFA..

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## Jaci 07

gowthamraj said:


> * i have one serious question did Sukhoi 30mkk have bars*


Yes it has highly classified N011M Bars


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## zhanghang

J11B better electronic systems, SU30MKI also good, but the Indians are good at crashed aircraft, they have been a world champion.

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## Shinigami

zhanghang said:


> J11B better electronic systems, SU30MKI also good, but the Indians are good at crashed aircraft, they have been a world champion.


read about this stuff before spouting cr@p from your mouth.

@ topic: is this question even necessary? a chinese copy of su27 vs an indian manufactured su30 fitted with the best goodies russia, india, israel and france has to offer


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## Wasteland

Test POST


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## The SC

Problems with the SU-30MKI: 2011 to 2014

*July 20/14: Engines.* Reports indicate that the IAF fleet’s problems aren’t limited to mission computers and displays (q.v. March 15/14). It also has a problem with engine failures in flight. Fortunately, as a 2-engine fighter, it can generally land on 1 engine, and the accident rate is low. The flip side is that this isn’t something you want to happen in a dogfight. Worse, every time this happens, the engine has to be taken out, tested, fixed, and put back. That takes a minimum of 4-5 days, which cuts readiness rates.

“The IAF has so far not arrived at a conclusion of its findings, but as a precautionary step, it has started servicing the engine after 700 hours instead of the mandated 1,000 hours of flying, adding to the non-availability of the aircraft…. The IAF had told Russians after studying each failure in detail that Sukhoi’s engines – AL-31FP produced by NPO Saturn of Russia – had been functioning inconsistently for the past two years (2012 and 2013). The number of single-engine landings by planes in two years is high and not healthy. It lowers the operational ability of the fleet, besides raising questions about war readiness, said sources.”

sources: Tribune News Service, “Su-30MKI engine failures worry IAF; Russia told to fix snag”.


*June 16/14: Display fix.* HAL chairman R K Tyagi discusses the issue of SU-30MKI display blanking and mission computer failure (q.v. March 15/14):

“The issue has been addressed by upgrading the software by the Russian side and replacing the mission computer and HUD wherever it was found unservicable during service checks [in India].” He further said that following the software upgrade and other service action taken, no problems concerning the Su-30 fighters has been reported from any IAF base.”

Sources: Defense World, “Software Upgrade Solves IAF Su-30MKI’s Display Problem”.



*April 22/14: Waste.* India’s Business Standard discusses HAL’s planned schedule, and explains some of the difficult aspects of their contract with Russia. Deliveries currently sit at 15 per year, but completion of the program will be late. Final delivery is now scheduled for 2019, instead of 2016-17.

The second issue is price, which began at $30 million but rose to $75 million each, even though most work is being done in a lower-cost country now. The key is the contract, which mandates that all raw materials must be sourced from Russia. Of the SU-30MKI’s roughly 43,000 components, there are 5,800 large metal plates, castings and forgings that must come from Russia. Another 7,146 bolts, screws, rivets, etc. have similar stipulations, and Russia also produces major assemblies like the radar and engines. Those plates, castings, and forgings are a source of considerable waste:

“For example, a 486 kg titanium bar supplied by Russia is whittled down to a 15.9 kg tail component. The titanium shaved off is wasted. Similarly a wing bracket that weighs just 3.1 kg has to be fashioned from a titanium forging that weighs 27 kg…. manufacturing sophisticated raw materials like titanium extrusions in India is not economically viable for the tiny quantities needed for Su-30MKI fighters.”
An assembly line that wasn’t state-owned wouldn’t be wasting all that left-over titanium. 

Sources: India’s Business Standard, “Air Force likely to get entire Sukhoi-30MKI fleet by 2019″.


*March 15/14: Readiness.* India’s Sunday Guardian obtains letters and other documents sent by HAL to its Russian counterparts, pointing to serious maintenance problems with India’s SU-30MKI fleet. Compared with India’s older Mirage 2000 and MiG-29 fleets, whose readiness rates hover near 75%, fully 50% of the SU-30MKIs are considered unfit for operational flying. That’s a strategic-class issue for a country like India, and could provide the missing explanation for reports that India may abandon the joint FGFA/SU-50 5th generation fighter program in order to pay for French Rafale jets.

This isn’t the first time such issues have arisen (q.v. Dec 16/11), and the Russians have general reputation for these kinds of problems. One February 2014 letter from HAL’s Nasik plant reminds the Russians that they’ve been pursuing a critical issue since March 2013, with no reply:

“…multiple cases of repeated failure of Mission Computer-1 and blanking out of Head Up Displays (HUD) and all Multi-Function Displays (MFD) in flight… As the displays blanking off is a serious and critical issue affecting the exploitation of aircraft (it) needs corrective action/remedial measures on priority…”

From a Dec 24/13 letter:

“Due to non-availability of facilities for overhaul of aggregates [aircraft parts], the serviceability of Su-30MKI is slowly decreasing and demand for Aircraft on Ground (AOG) items on the rise…. Huge quantities of unserviceable aggregates [parts] are lying due for overhaul at various bases of IAF…. It appears that Rosboronexport and Irkut Corporation have limited control over other Russian companies [which provide vital parts like engines].”
One reason the MiG-29 fleet is doing better is that India has worked to build infrastructure like local RD-33 engine plants, bypassing the Russians entirely. Russian firms were supposed to set up a SU-30MKI repair-overhaul facility at HAL by December 2013, but that has fallen into a black hole, and so has the posting of aircraft specialists. India itself is often at fault in these scenarios, and indeed they’re reportedly haggling over price – but the specialist support contract reportedly states that they’re to be posted even if price negotiations aren’t finalized. India’s core defense posture demands that they resolve these issues, one way or another. 

Sources: India’s Sunday Guardian, “Russians go slow, Sukhoi fleet in trouble”. 


*Dec 20/11: Cleared for flight.* India’s fleet of SU-30MKIs resumes flying, after being informally grounded in the wake of the Pune crash. As for that crash, Daily Pioneer reports that:

“There was a problem in the fly-by-wire system… This is a new thing. Pilot did not get any warning. There were no indications in the cockpit and the aircraft was out of control,” the IAF chief told PTI here. He said the pilot “tried his best to control the aircraft for 15-20 minutes” before ejecting out along with the Weapon Systems Operator (WSO)…”

*Dec 16/11: Readiness.* The Hindustan Times reports that perennial problems with Russian spares & reliability have become an urgent issue for the SU-30MKI fleet now:

“Prime Minister Manmohan Singh is expected to red-flag [SU-30] serviceability, product support and pending upgrade… at the annual [Russian] summit meeting… Top government sources said that Air Headquarters has urgently requested the Prime Minister to raise the issue of engine serviceability with his Russian counterpart after few incidents of engine failures… the top brass has conveyed to government that “shaft bearing failures” have occurred in some [AL-31FP] engines. “In peacetime, the fighter can land on the other engine but this can be a life and death situation in adverse conditions, said a senior official.”*
Dec 13-15/11:* An SU-30MKI crashes 25 minutes after takeoff, in the flying area of the Lohegaon IAF base, in Pune. Both pilots ejected safely. This is the IAF’s 3rd SU-30MKI crash; the 1st crash in 2009 was due to a fly-by-wire fault, and the 2nd also happened in 2009 when foreign matter was sucked into the plane’s engine.
In response, A Court of Inquiry (CoI) has been ordered to look into the reasons behind the crash. India also grounds its SU-30MKI fleet, pending maintenance inspections and some idea of what caused this crash. 

Rediff | Economic Times of India | IBN Live | Indian Express | Hindustan Times
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## desimorty

This is going to come down to pilot skill and training.
Difference between the aircraft, while the MKI has superior avonics despite what the Chinese fanboys say, nothing is certian as there is lack of transperancy as to what the J-11 has. What we do know is that the MKI was built from the very begining to be a air dominance fighter. The J-11 had incrimental upgrades from the Su-27 to eventually allow Chinese avonics. Are they supperior? We don't know and chances are they are modern they would still give the J-11 the same capability the MKI already has.
The major difference is the radar, mission computer, tvc and canards.
The IAF wanted an multirole, swing role aircraft, unlike the PLAAF that excepted Su-27s and slowly built up multirole capability in limited role for the J-11. Remember the PLAAF also purchased Su-30MKK as a bomber/fighter- same thing the MKI does but better some ways in terms of precision. Big difference being the mission computer that allows the MKI to change tactics while in the air.
The canards are there not to look spangly or increase maneuverability! This is important, why does the MKI have canards? Well its because the Bars radar is heavier than the basic radar in the J-11, Su-30MKK. The canards make sure the nose doesnt drop during flight, they actually have no value in terms of maneuverability! Only the TVC engines do!
Why did the Indians want TVC on the MKI? This is because after playing around with the Su-30MK they realised the Flanker doesn't do dog fights very well despite the hype! The flanker is big and heavy! heavier when its fully loaded! The Falcrum kicked the Flankers arse in dogfights and so did the Mirage! TVC was to reduce this shortcoming.

PILOT diference is important. Even though Indians have had crashes, this only proves, that they actually fly their machines, a lot more than the Chinese or even Russians. PLAAF doesn't disclose crashes unless its too difficulte to hide which is in contrast to India, where it gets reported since its tax payer money. The PLAAF pilots didn't get very good flying hours until recently and that too with strings. 
The Indian MKI pilots mission is also different, while the J-11 flys usually on land and close the shore, MKIs get all duties, and get sent to port blair. They have already been to alaska, they operate as swing role with full load under taking any mission, while the pLAAF concentrates or area denial tactics. The Indian pilot is offense, while the Chinese need to send escorts for the J-11 during ground attack operations. Payload is different and so is the level of professionalism. Recent barrel loop over a P8 proved this!
Good pilots don't do stupid stunts. You wanna scare off a P8, than lock on to it. Follow it, don't create ur own protocol. This lack of safety understanding comes from the PLAAFs lack of cross training with other airforces. Don't do barrel roles over a bigger aircraft!

The only advantage the J-11 has over the MKI is nigh.... Payload perhaps... The MKI is heavier for obvious reasons while the J-11 retains the orginal weight to the extent it can. Also the MKI is twin seat, also helps greatly with swing role capability.

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## TANMAY619

farhan_9909 said:


> j-11BS
> 
> Su 30MKi is over rated by indians,
> 
> and cost is very low 35-37 Million per aircraft.


the cost is low does not mean its a bad aircraft. the cost is low due to the relatively lower labour cost in india and the lower cost of materials bad economy of russia. had a similar fighter been produced say, in u.s or france its cost would have been at least 75mn$ per ac.


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## The_Sidewinder

Sukhoi 30 mki will prevail if two fighters go head on. Better arnament & EW suit will make the difference.


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## antonius123

isro2222 said:


> J-11B VS su-30MKI comparision should be made in avionics.... And not in the weight. Su-30MKI is the best jet fighter in asia due to what it uses inside it. Su-30MKI can kill any jet fighter of asia. Although i doubt it can take on F-22 and Eurofighter typhoon because their avionics bit ahead then su-30MKI.... About vietnaam su-30 was just a jet fighter with no capability. If vietnaam were using Su-30MKI then chinese jet fighter would have been dead.... India even threaten chinese navy ship and warned that next time they try to mess in indian ocean than su-30MKI would jam their ship totaly. This shows what Su-30MKI using. India should thank europe for it.... Our next step should be to upgrade vietnaam jetfighters with latest avionics. Todays war mostly depends on avionics. Su-30 is a great jetfighter but without good avionics its just a normal jetfighter....




If SU-30MKI is the most advanced a/c in asia, then why India is craving for Rafale? 

That Rafale buying consideration is already a solid indication that IAF realize their SU-30MKI may not be able to handle J-10B or J-11B.

Case closed.


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## AUSTERLITZ

antonius123 said:


> If SU-30MKI is the most advanced a/c in asia, then why India is craving for Rafale?
> 
> That Rafale buying consideration is already a solid indication that IAF realize their SU-30MKI may not be able to handle J-10B or J-11B.
> 
> Case closed.



Another novice i see.
Main reason rafale is being inducted is 
1.Squadron strength rapidly falling.
2.IAF needs low level penetration ground strike aircraft with mig-27 being phased out.MKI is unsuited for this role as BARS radar is not designed for low level ground mapping.Moreover MKI has large RCS and is more vulnerable to enemy SAMs than rafale.
3.Finally rafale would have greater service rate than MKI.Also spectra EW is most advanced EW suite after raptor/f-35.
And the meteor BVR missile is set to be the best BVR in the world which would totally outrange and outclass both chinese and pak bvrs.

As for current arsenal of PAF and PLAAF su-30mki can easily take on anything less than 5th gen with a good chance of success.

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## The Great One

antonius123 said:


> then why India is craving for Rafale?





antonius123 said:


> If SU-30MKI is the most advanced a/c in asia


Rafale is in Europe

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## antonius123

AUSTERLITZ said:


> As for current arsenal of PAF and PLAAF su-30mki can easily take on anything less than 5th gen with a good chance of success.




Why is that? any logical reason?

What make you think MKI can take down J-11B/J-10B or even J-11D easily as you say.


I dont know if compared with J-11B.

But for sure J-11D outperform SU30MKI including the super one. The combination of next generation AESA + PL-10 air to air missile, long range PL-21 missile is really deadly even for SU-35 the Russian most modern a/c.

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## AUSTERLITZ

antonius123 said:


> Why is that? any logical reason?
> 
> What make you think MKI can take down J-11B/J-10B or even J-11D easily as you say.
> 
> 
> I dont know if compared with J-11B.
> 
> But for sure J-11D outperform SU30MKI including the super one. The combination of next generation AESA + PL-10 air to air missile, long range PL-21 missile is really deadly even for SU-35 the Russian most modern a/c.



I didn't say easily win,i said easily take on and have a good chance of success which is correct statement.All j-11 versions except prototype j-11d are inferior to mki.J-11D is not in bulk service and no it won't be better than super sukhoi as the only advantages it would provide over mki would be rcs reduction and AESA radar both of which will be present in super mki which also has additional advantages such as TVC.I would also fight j-10b and f-16 of paf with confidence in mki.Of these F-16 will be a real challenge due to AMRAAM missile and good PAF pilots who are much superior to chinese.
Above all PLAAF planes fighting on the eastern front operating from high altitude of tibetan plateau will have to operate at much reduced combat ceiling,payload and combat range which IAF units won't have due to eastern bases being on lower altitude.On top of that most of your in service aircraft lack OBOGS ,save the j-11b which puts them at critical disadvantage in fights in mountaneous areas ,while all modern IAF aircraft have onboard OBOGS-not just MKIS.

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## danger007

antonius123 said:


> If SU-30MKI is the most advanced a/c in asia, then why India is craving for Rafale?
> 
> That Rafale buying consideration is already a solid indication that IAF realize their SU-30MKI may not be able to handle J-10B or J-11B.
> 
> Case closed.




MMRCA, Medium multirole platform, we are looking for Medium weight category For multi role purposes A2A and A2g, MKI is heavy wegith Air dominance fighter... both are different fighters in Different leagues...

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## antonius123

AUSTERLITZ said:


> I didn't say easily win,i said easily take on and have a good chance of success which is correct statement.All j-11 versions except prototype j-11d are inferior to mki.J-11D is not in bulk service and no it won't be better than super sukhoi as the only advantages it would provide over mki would be rcs reduction and AESA radar both of which will be present in super mki which also has additional advantages such as TVC.I would also fight j-10b and f-16 of paf with confidence in mki.Of these F-16 will be a real challenge due to AMRAAM missile and good PAF pilots who are much superior to chinese.
> Above all PLAAF planes fighting on the eastern front operating from high altitude of tibetan plateau will have to operate at much reduced combat ceiling,payload and combat range which IAF units won't have due to eastern bases being on lower altitude.On top of that most of your in service aircraft lack OBOGS ,save the j-11b which puts them at critical disadvantage in fights in mountaneous areas ,while all modern IAF aircraft have onboard OBOGS-not just MKIS.



Well you are comparing the existing and operational J-11B with the future Super MKI? of course that doesnt fair. 

The fact is current SU30MKI is using PESA not AESA, while J-11B is using AESA, not to mention the lower RCS.

That is the critical point that suggest that it should be J-11B that have higher chance to shoot down SU30MKI than the other way round.

BTW the future MKI's AESA is zhuk ae which is only has around 1000 T/R much less than 1760 T/R of the J-11D AESA radar. 


*J-11B's, J-15's, and J-16's use same radar*
*Some points regarding this new radar :*

1. It is in L band
2. It can track a 0.1 m^2 target from 250 km away
3. It can track a 1 m^2 target from 450 km away
4. This radar has 1760 T/R modules
5. The radar is very similar to the rumors about it in terms of characteristics
Advanced AESA Radar in J-11B | Errymath

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## NKVD

antonius123 said:


> BTW the future MKI's AESA is zhuk ae which is only has around 1000 T/R much less than 1760 T/R of the J-11D AESA radar.


First You are Wrong here currently IAF has not Chosen Any AESA for Mki MLU. ZhuK AE is Just Rumor Played Longtime




antonius123 said:


> *J-11B's, J-15's, and J-16's use same radar*
> *Some points regarding this new radar :*
> 
> 1. It is in L band
> 2. It can track a 0.1 m^2 target from 250 km away
> 3. It can track a 1 m^2 target from 450 km away
> 4. This radar has 1760 T/R modules
> 5. The radar is very similar to the rumors about it in terms of characteristics










 Chinese defense forums have posted copies of the image above which claim to cite the J-20’s AESA T/R module count at 1,856, the J-16’s at 1,760, and the J-10B at 1,200 T/R modules. It is likely the J-10B is the first Chinese fighter aircraft to feature an AESA; J-10B units achieved initial operational capability (IOC) in October of 2014. The volume of the J-10s nose cone is not substantially different from that of the F-16 or the Israeli Lavi from which the J-10 is partially based. Therefore, if one were to assume China had reached parity with the United States in packaging technology, the 1,200 T/R module figure would be plausible but slightly high. For comparison, the APG-80 AESA for the F-16C/D Block 60 has 1,000 T/R modules (DSB, 2001). However, it is unlikely that China has been able to reach parity with the United States in terms of packaging technology on their first generation AESA design. Neither Russia nor Israel was able to field 1,000 T/R element arrays within their first generation fighter mounted AESAs for similar nose volumes as the F-16 with the Mig-35 and Israeli F-16 respectively. 
Russia’s first fighter mounted AESA radar, the Zhuk-AE, contained 652 T/R modules and was unveiled in 2007. The Israeli ELM-2052 AESA radar, which has been marketed for both the F-16 and the FA-50 – a joint Korean Aerospace Industry and Lockheed Martin F-16 derivative, has roughly 512 T/R modules (Trimble, 2014). The only firm outside of the United States that was able to produce a 1,000 T/R element within one generation was the French avionics firm Thales with its RB2E radar (Avionics Today, 2009). While the relative technological maturity of European, Israeli, and Russian AESAs is not directly indicative of the relative technological maturity of China’s packaging technology, it is an indicator that the first generation AESA produced by China is likely not on par with the US which is generally recognized as having the most technological mature T/R packaging technology (Kopp, 2014).


The prospect of China’s TR packaging technology being on par with US firms within a single generation of radars is even more dubious when one examines the preference for an incremental technological development within the Chinese aerospace industry. Several Chinese aviation authors have hypothesized that the J-10B serves as a “technological stepping stone” with respect to the development of the more advanced J-20. For example, Feng Cao argues the J-10B and the J-16 AESAs were likely used to test technology related to the J-20’s AESA which would be a second generation Chinese design. By virtue of the larger nose volumes in the J-16 and J-20 airframes, it is highly probable the two aircraft will feature radars with more T/R modules than the J-10B’s radar. 
The J-16 utilizes the Su-27BS airframe which has room for a 0.9-1.1 meter aperture in the nose which is on par with the F-15 and F-22 in terms of volume (Kopp, 2012). The 1,500 element N036 Tikhomirov NIIP AESA has a similar aperture size to the electronically scanned array (ESA) Irbis-E radar featured in the Su-35 series of fighters which shares the base Su-27 airframe. If the 1,760 T/R figure is correct it would indicate the Chinese aerospace industry has eclipsed Russian T/R module packaging technology as the N036 is arguably the most advanced Russian fighter mounted AESA. Similarly, the most advanced US fighter mounted AESAs such as the APG-77(V)2 and APG-82(V)1 contain 1,500 T/R modules*. While the prospect of Chinese avionics firms reaching parity with US and Russian firms is more plausible within two generations of designs, the author is skeptical the 1,760 figure is correct given the unsubstantiated nature of the image and the fairly substantial 260 T/R discrepancy between the J-16 radar figure compared to the most advanced US and Russian AESA designs. Therefore, the author speculates it would be more reasonable to assume a figure between 1,200 and 1,500 TR modules for the J-16 rather than the 1,760 figure. 

The tentative designation for the J-20's AESA is the Type 1475. While the nose volume of the J-20 is certainly large, the jet overall is longer and heavier than the F-22, no credible figures for nose volume were available at the time of this publication. As with the J-16 T/R figure, the J-20 figure is substantially greater than that of the most advanced US and Russian designs. Even if the Nanjing Research Institute of Electronics Technology (NRIET) or the China Leihua Electronic Technology Research Institute (607 Institute) was able to develop sufficient packaging technology that would enable 1,856 T/R modules within the J-20's nose, the density of the T/R modules would create significant cooling problems. For example, Phazotron's single greatest difficulty in designing the Zuk-AE was the AESA's thermal management system (Kopp, 2008). Without an effective cooling system, the Type 1475 would not be reliable at peak power output and would cause significant maintenance issues. Furthermore, with such a high number of T/R modules, the Type 1475 would be vulnerable to radar warning receiver (RWR) systems such as the ALR-94 without a very capable low probability intercept (LPI) mode. 
Many discussions with respect to the "relative stealthiness" of fighter aircraft are limited to merely comparing radar cross section estimates while entirely neglecting alternate means of detecting aircraft such as RWRs or other emission locator systems. David Axe succinctly compares the process of how RWRs function to how a flash light carried by another person is easily visible in a dark room. AESAs emit a substantial amount of energy, especially designs with a greater number of T/R modules, which enables passive emission locator systems to detect an AESA. The addition of an LPI software for AESAs mitigates the risk of RWR detection. 
"The radar's signals are managed in intensity, duration and space to maintain the pilot's situational awareness while minimizing the chance that its signals will be intercepted.More distant targets get less radar attention; as they get closer to the F-22, they will be identified and prioritized; and when they are close enough to be engaged or avoided, they are continuously tracked" - Bill Sweetman, 2001 






Graphic 1: The data present in graphic 1 are assembled from numerous sources which are cited below. The formula: "(km known) * (new rcs/rcs known)^(0.25) = detection range of new rcs" was used to calculate many of the figures. T;E = maximum number of targets tracked & maximum number of targets engaged simultaneously. 

In summary, the high T/R module counts detailed in image 3 are likely too high to be considered legitimate. This is not to marginalize the significant advancements made by the Chinese aerospace industry in avionics, but the level of misinformation and disinformation prevalent within publications detailing Chinese military systems necessitates a strict research approach. The figures cited in image three are not consistent with what one could reasonably assume given the technological development of fighter mounted AESAs within other countries such as Russia, Israel, and the United States. Ultimately, determining the exact T/R module count for various Chinese AESAs is of little consequence when compared to the underlying trend that Chinese avionics firms have made staggering advancements over the past decade.

The vast majority of fighter aircraft currently deployed by the People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) use Soviet designed MSAs such as the N010 and N001 series. Even the most capable of China's MSAs, the N0001VEP equipped on the Su-30MKK, can only track ten targets while engaging two simultaneously. Originally, the J-11 could only track ten targets and engage one before being upgraded to engage two targets simultaneously after 2003 (Global Security, 2014). The addition of even a comparatively primitive AESA would significantly increase the lethality of China's fourth and fifth generation fighter forces. One of the main constraints of China's existing fighter force detailed in graphic one is the limited detection range, tracking, and engagement numbers of the MSAs relative to Russian ESAs and American AESAs.

In a 2008 RAND report, _Air Combat Past, Present and Future_, John Stillion and Scott Perdue state the PLAAF has at least a three to one numerical superiority over the United States in a conflict over the Taiwanese strait around 2020. As part of the Russian method of fighter employment, each Flanker is equipped with between eight and twelve beyond visual range (bvr) air-to-air missiles in which multiple missiles are fired against each target to increase the probability of a kill (pk). In a modern digital radio frequency memory jamming environment, even capable radar guided missile such as the AIM-120 will likely have lower than a 0.50 pk (RAND, 2008). Hence the Russian bvr doctrine of launching at least two missiles against a single target as the pk increases as the number of missiles fired increases.

The addition of fighter mounted AESA radars would enable Chinese pilots to launch missiles against a larger number of targets in the opening salvo of an air-to-air engagement as well as providing increased situational awareness for Chinese pilots when compared to current MSAs. The ability to engage more targets at beyond visual range effectively complements the PLAAF's numerical superiority by allowing each aircraft to make full use of their comparatively larger payload of air-to-air missiles. It is worth noting that the United States will continue to deploy large numbers of fourth generation aircraft such as the F-15C, F-16C/D, and F/A-18E/F into the late 2020s to 2030s; these aircraft will be especially put at risk as a result of improvements in Chinese avionics with respect to improved PLAAF bvr capabilities.

The enhancement of situational awareness gained by the deployment of AESAs is especially important given the shift within the PLA from Soviet and Russian inspired doctrines towards embracing an increasing number of American combat doctrines such as network centric warfare:

"Almost all of the PLA’s 2013 exercises focused on operating in 'informationized' conditions by emphasizing system-of-systems operations, a concept that can be viewed as the Chinese corollary to U.S. network-centric warfare. This concept requires enhancing systems and weapons with information capabilities and linking geographically dispersed forces and capabilities into an integrated system capable of unified action. These operational training reforms are a result of the Outline of Military Training and Evaluation (OMTE), which was last published in mid-2008 and became standard across the PLA on January 1, 2009. Since that time, the PLA has pushed to achieve OMTE objectives by emphasizing realistic training conditions, training in complex electromagnetic and joint environments, and integrating new technologies into the PLA force structure." - Department of Defense, 2014





Image 8: PLAAF Su-30MKK aggressor unit. Image retrieved via Sinodefense.

PLAAF pilots continue to improve their skills as a result of realistic large scale exercises such as Red Sword/Blue Sword and accumulate higher numbers of practice flight hours per year. PLAAF pilots accumulate200 flight hours per year compared to pre-sequestration US fighter pilots accumulating 250 to 300 flight hours per year in their aircraft. The combination of new AESAs, adoption of new fighter employment doctrines, and improved pilot training will make the PLAAF an increasingly formidable fighting force and a near peer competitor to the USAF. While the PLAAF is unlikely to reach parity with the USAF in the near future, the advancements made by the PLAAF are substantial enough to pose a significant threat to US forces in the region given the PLAAF's in theatre numerical superiority. A USAF official interviewed by the National Interest astutely summarized the PLAAF's ongoing modernization program:

"I think we can probably keep a slight advantage for quite some time, but a slight advantage means significant losses and less of a deterrent...Lets pretend the F-22 confronts current air-to-air threats outside of a SAM [surface-to-air missile] environment and has a 30 to one kill ratio today versus a [Sukhoi] Su-30 or [Shenyang] J-11. When the J-20 and J-31 come around, even a three to one kill ratio advantage becomes costly...Our competitors know the current reality and are working very hard to avoid the wide gap we have created by investing in those planes,they represent their attempt and creating parity in the skies."

AN/APG-77 – the 1,500 T/R figure comes directly from a Defense Science Board report published by the Office of the Secretary of Defense in 2001. The author judged credibility of direct source material to be more authentic than the commonly cited 2,000 or 1,994 T/R figure. The latter of the three figures was determined by counting the T/R modules visually by members of the F-16.net forums. Neither the APG-77(V)1 nor the APG-77(V)2 upgrades include added T/R modules. Rather, the version one upgrade adds surface aperture radar mode and (V)2 adds commonality with the APG-81 with respect to maintenance purposes. 

*The F-22 is likely able to overcome the limitations of LPI in an actual combat with the assistance of the ALR-94, sensor fusion, and tactics described by Bill Sweetman in article "_The Next Generation_" published in the Journal of Electronic Defense in 2000 (An online copy of the article is available in the source 41 citation courtesy of F-16.net). 

*EL/M-2035 - figures are from the EL/M-2032 of which the EL/M-2035 is a derivative. Also the figure provided is the maximum detection range of the radar in an air-to-air and does not give a corresponding rcs target 

*Type 1493 - the name and tracking numbers provided by Sinodefense "PLAAF Su-27/J-11 Flanker". Kopp states the J-11B radar strongly resembles the Zhuk-27 (N010) radar, the J-8II is equipped with a N010 derivative, the Zhuk-811. Numerous Chinese internet sources claim the J-11B is equipped with an AESA radar but these claims are baseless and unsubstantiated. An official SAC image (below) clearly show a mechanically scanned array within the nose of the aircraft (available on Air Power Australia website). Similarly, many Chinese internet sources claim the J-11B incorporates stealth coatings and a reduced radar cross section along with an AESA. David Shalpak, _The Chinese Air Force: Evolving Concepts, Roles, and Capabilities, _dismisses the reduced rcs claims (pg. 196). Clearly a great deal of misinformation exists with respect to the J-11B. 







Type 1473 - The maximum detection range figures listed for the Type 1473 are from the EL/M-2032 which is arguably its closest analogue with published performance data (the Israelis supplied EL/M-2032s to China in the early 1990s which was developed into the Type 1473). The tracking and engagement figures for the Type 1473 are provided by Sinodefense. 

*AN/APG-81 - 2015 service date refers to the scheduled first F-35B deployment by the USMC

Source:American Innovation: The Technological Maturity of Chinese AESA Technology & Strategic Impacts

Nice & Professional Assessment


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## AUSTERLITZ

Yes i'm quite sure j-11b has a radar more powerful than f-22 raptor or pak-fa.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## antonius123

NKVD said:


> First You are Wrong here currently IAF has not Chosen Any AESA for Mki MLU. ZhuK AE is Just Rumor Played Longtime



Then what is the better AESA that Super MKI can obtain?
That strengthen the fact that 30MKI BVR capability is bellow J-11B due to AESA on the latter.




> Chinese defense forums have posted copies of the image above which claim to cite the J-20’s AESA T/R module count at 1,856, the J-16’s at 1,760, and the J-10B at 1,200 T/R modules. It is likely the J-10B is the first Chinese fighter aircraft to feature an AESA; J-10B units achieved initial operational capability (IOC) in October of 2014. The volume of the J-10s nose cone is not substantially different from that of the F-16 or the Israeli Lavi from which the J-10 is partially based. Therefore, if one were to assume China had reached parity with the United States in packaging technology, the 1,200 T/R module figure would be plausible but slightly high. For comparison, the APG-80 AESA for the F-16C/D Block 60 has 1,000 T/R modules (DSB, 2001). However, it is unlikely that China has been able to reach parity with the United States in terms of packaging technology on their first generation AESA design. Neither Russia nor Israel was able to field 1,000 T/R element arrays within their first generation fighter mounted AESAs for similar nose volumes as the F-16 with the Mig-35 and Israeli F-16 respectively.
> Russia’s first fighter mounted AESA radar, the Zhuk-AE, contained 652 T/R modules and was unveiled in 2007. The Israeli ELM-2052 AESA radar, which has been marketed for both the F-16 and the FA-50 – a joint Korean Aerospace Industry and Lockheed Martin F-16 derivative, has roughly 512 T/R modules (Trimble, 2014). The only firm outside of the United States that was able to produce a 1,000 T/R element within one generation was the French avionics firm Thales with its RB2E radar (Avionics Today, 2009). While the relative technological maturity of European, Israeli, and Russian AESAs is not directly indicative of the relative technological maturity of China’s packaging technology, it is an indicator that the first generation AESA produced by China is likely not on par with the US which is generally recognized as having the most technological mature T/R packaging technology (Kopp, 2014).
> 
> 
> The prospect of China’s TR packaging technology being on par with US firms within a single generation of radars is even more dubious when one examines the preference for an incremental technological development within the Chinese aerospace industry. Several Chinese aviation authors have hypothesized that the J-10B serves as a “technological stepping stone” with respect to the development of the more advanced J-20. For example, Feng Cao argues the J-10B and the J-16 AESAs were likely used to test technology related to the J-20’s AESA which would be a second generation Chinese design. By virtue of the larger nose volumes in the J-16 and J-20 airframes, it is highly probable the two aircraft will feature radars with more T/R modules than the J-10B’s radar.
> The J-16 utilizes the Su-27BS airframe which has room for a 0.9-1.1 meter aperture in the nose which is on par with the F-15 and F-22 in terms of volume (Kopp, 2012). The 1,500 element N036 Tikhomirov NIIP AESA has a similar aperture size to the electronically scanned array (ESA) Irbis-E radar featured in the Su-35 series of fighters which shares the base Su-27 airframe. If the 1,760 T/R figure is correct it would indicate the Chinese aerospace industry has eclipsed Russian T/R module packaging technology as the N036 is arguably the most advanced Russian fighter mounted AESA. Similarly, the most advanced US fighter mounted AESAs such as the APG-77(V)2 and APG-82(V)1 contain 1,500 T/R modules*. While the prospect of Chinese avionics firms reaching parity with US and Russian firms is more plausible within two generations of designs, the author is skeptical the 1,760 figure is correct given the unsubstantiated nature of the image and the fairly substantial 260 T/R discrepancy between the J-16 radar figure compared to the most advanced US and Russian AESA designs. Therefore, the author speculates it would be more reasonable to assume a figure between 1,200 and 1,500 TR modules for the J-16 rather than the 1,760 figure.
> 
> The tentative designation for the J-20's AESA is the Type 1475. While the nose volume of the J-20 is certainly large, the jet overall is longer and heavier than the F-22, no credible figures for nose volume were available at the time of this publication. As with the J-16 T/R figure, the J-20 figure is substantially greater than that of the most advanced US and Russian designs. Even if the Nanjing Research Institute of Electronics Technology (NRIET) or the China Leihua Electronic Technology Research Institute (607 Institute) was able to develop sufficient packaging technology that would enable 1,856 T/R modules within the J-20's nose, the density of the T/R modules would create significant cooling problems. For example, Phazotron's single greatest difficulty in designing the Zuk-AE was the AESA's thermal management system (Kopp, 2008). Without an effective cooling system, the Type 1475 would not be reliable at peak power output and would cause significant maintenance issues. Furthermore, with such a high number of T/R modules, the Type 1475 would be vulnerable to radar warning receiver (RWR) systems such as the ALR-94 without a very capable low probability intercept (LPI) mode.
> Many discussions with respect to the "relative stealthiness" of fighter aircraft are limited to merely comparing radar cross section estimates while entirely neglecting alternate means of detecting aircraft such as RWRs or other emission locator systems. David Axe succinctly compares the process of how RWRs function to how a flash light carried by another person is easily visible in a dark room. AESAs emit a substantial amount of energy, especially designs with a greater number of T/R modules, which enables passive emission locator systems to detect an AESA. The addition of an LPI software for AESAs mitigates the risk of RWR detection.
> "The radar's signals are managed in intensity, duration and space to maintain the pilot's situational awareness while minimizing the chance that its signals will be intercepted.More distant targets get less radar attention; as they get closer to the F-22, they will be identified and prioritized; and when they are close enough to be engaged or avoided, they are continuously tracked" - Bill Sweetman, 2001
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Graphic 1: The data present in graphic 1 are assembled from numerous sources which are cited below. The formula: "(km known) * (new rcs/rcs known)^(0.25) = detection range of new rcs" was used to calculate many of the figures. T;E = maximum number of targets tracked & maximum number of targets engaged simultaneously.
> 
> In summary, the high T/R module counts detailed in image 3 are likely too high to be considered legitimate. This is not to marginalize the significant advancements made by the Chinese aerospace industry in avionics, but the level of misinformation and disinformation prevalent within publications detailing Chinese military systems necessitates a strict research approach. The figures cited in image three are not consistent with what one could reasonably assume given the technological development of fighter mounted AESAs within other countries such as Russia, Israel, and the United States. Ultimately, determining the exact T/R module count for various Chinese AESAs is of little consequence when compared to the underlying trend that Chinese avionics firms have made staggering advancements over the past decade.
> 
> The vast majority of fighter aircraft currently deployed by the People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) use Soviet designed MSAs such as the N010 and N001 series. Even the most capable of China's MSAs, the N0001VEP equipped on the Su-30MKK, can only track ten targets while engaging two simultaneously. Originally, the J-11 could only track ten targets and engage one before being upgraded to engage two targets simultaneously after 2003 (Global Security, 2014). The addition of even a comparatively primitive AESA would significantly increase the lethality of China's fourth and fifth generation fighter forces. One of the main constraints of China's existing fighter force detailed in graphic one is the limited detection range, tracking, and engagement numbers of the MSAs relative to Russian ESAs and American AESAs.
> 
> In a 2008 RAND report, _Air Combat Past, Present and Future_, John Stillion and Scott Perdue state the PLAAF has at least a three to one numerical superiority over the United States in a conflict over the Taiwanese strait around 2020. As part of the Russian method of fighter employment, each Flanker is equipped with between eight and twelve beyond visual range (bvr) air-to-air missiles in which multiple missiles are fired against each target to increase the probability of a kill (pk). In a modern digital radio frequency memory jamming environment, even capable radar guided missile such as the AIM-120 will likely have lower than a 0.50 pk (RAND, 2008). Hence the Russian bvr doctrine of launching at least two missiles against a single target as the pk increases as the number of missiles fired increases.
> 
> The addition of fighter mounted AESA radars would enable Chinese pilots to launch missiles against a larger number of targets in the opening salvo of an air-to-air engagement as well as providing increased situational awareness for Chinese pilots when compared to current MSAs. The ability to engage more targets at beyond visual range effectively complements the PLAAF's numerical superiority by allowing each aircraft to make full use of their comparatively larger payload of air-to-air missiles. It is worth noting that the United States will continue to deploy large numbers of fourth generation aircraft such as the F-15C, F-16C/D, and F/A-18E/F into the late 2020s to 2030s; these aircraft will be especially put at risk as a result of improvements in Chinese avionics with respect to improved PLAAF bvr capabilities.
> 
> The enhancement of situational awareness gained by the deployment of AESAs is especially important given the shift within the PLA from Soviet and Russian inspired doctrines towards embracing an increasing number of American combat doctrines such as network centric warfare:
> 
> "Almost all of the PLA’s 2013 exercises focused on operating in 'informationized' conditions by emphasizing system-of-systems operations, a concept that can be viewed as the Chinese corollary to U.S. network-centric warfare. This concept requires enhancing systems and weapons with information capabilities and linking geographically dispersed forces and capabilities into an integrated system capable of unified action. These operational training reforms are a result of the Outline of Military Training and Evaluation (OMTE), which was last published in mid-2008 and became standard across the PLA on January 1, 2009. Since that time, the PLA has pushed to achieve OMTE objectives by emphasizing realistic training conditions, training in complex electromagnetic and joint environments, and integrating new technologies into the PLA force structure." - Department of Defense, 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Image 8: PLAAF Su-30MKK aggressor unit. Image retrieved via Sinodefense.
> 
> PLAAF pilots continue to improve their skills as a result of realistic large scale exercises such as Red Sword/Blue Sword and accumulate higher numbers of practice flight hours per year. PLAAF pilots accumulate200 flight hours per year compared to pre-sequestration US fighter pilots accumulating 250 to 300 flight hours per year in their aircraft. The combination of new AESAs, adoption of new fighter employment doctrines, and improved pilot training will make the PLAAF an increasingly formidable fighting force and a near peer competitor to the USAF. While the PLAAF is unlikely to reach parity with the USAF in the near future, the advancements made by the PLAAF are substantial enough to pose a significant threat to US forces in the region given the PLAAF's in theatre numerical superiority. A USAF official interviewed by the National Interest astutely summarized the PLAAF's ongoing modernization program:
> 
> "I think we can probably keep a slight advantage for quite some time, but a slight advantage means significant losses and less of a deterrent...Lets pretend the F-22 confronts current air-to-air threats outside of a SAM [surface-to-air missile] environment and has a 30 to one kill ratio today versus a [Sukhoi] Su-30 or [Shenyang] J-11. When the J-20 and J-31 come around, even a three to one kill ratio advantage becomes costly...Our competitors know the current reality and are working very hard to avoid the wide gap we have created by investing in those planes,they represent their attempt and creating parity in the skies."
> 
> AN/APG-77 – the 1,500 T/R figure comes directly from a Defense Science Board report published by the Office of the Secretary of Defense in 2001. The author judged credibility of direct source material to be more authentic than the commonly cited 2,000 or 1,994 T/R figure. The latter of the three figures was determined by counting the T/R modules visually by members of the F-16.net forums. Neither the APG-77(V)1 nor the APG-77(V)2 upgrades include added T/R modules. Rather, the version one upgrade adds surface aperture radar mode and (V)2 adds commonality with the APG-81 with respect to maintenance purposes.
> 
> *The F-22 is likely able to overcome the limitations of LPI in an actual combat with the assistance of the ALR-94, sensor fusion, and tactics described by Bill Sweetman in article "_The Next Generation_" published in the Journal of Electronic Defense in 2000 (An online copy of the article is available in the source 41 citation courtesy of F-16.net).
> 
> *EL/M-2035 - figures are from the EL/M-2032 of which the EL/M-2035 is a derivative. Also the figure provided is the maximum detection range of the radar in an air-to-air and does not give a corresponding rcs target
> 
> *Type 1493 - the name and tracking numbers provided by Sinodefense "PLAAF Su-27/J-11 Flanker". Kopp states the J-11B radar strongly resembles the Zhuk-27 (N010) radar, the J-8II is equipped with a N010 derivative, the Zhuk-811. Numerous Chinese internet sources claim the J-11B is equipped with an AESA radar but these claims are baseless and unsubstantiated. An official SAC image (below) clearly show a mechanically scanned array within the nose of the aircraft (available on Air Power Australia website). Similarly, many Chinese internet sources claim the J-11B incorporates stealth coatings and a reduced radar cross section along with an AESA. David Shalpak, _The Chinese Air Force: Evolving Concepts, Roles, and Capabilities, _dismisses the reduced rcs claims (pg. 196). Clearly a great deal of misinformation exists with respect to the J-11B.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Type 1473 - The maximum detection range figures listed for the Type 1473 are from the EL/M-2032 which is arguably its closest analogue with published performance data (the Israelis supplied EL/M-2032s to China in the early 1990s which was developed into the Type 1473). The tracking and engagement figures for the Type 1473 are provided by Sinodefense.
> 
> *AN/APG-81 - 2015 service date refers to the scheduled first F-35B deployment by the USMC
> 
> Source:American Innovation: The Technological Maturity of Chinese AESA Technology & Strategic Impacts
> 
> Nice & Professional Assessment




And your point is ...? you want to say that MKI's radar should be better than chinese J-11B's AESA?

Still no expert doubt china ability in making performing AESA.



AUSTERLITZ said:


> Yes i'm quite sure j-11b has a radar more powerful than f-22 raptor or pak-fa.



So? does SU30MKI use the same AESA used on F-22? otherwise your argument has no point. 

Nobody know how far China has progress on AESA capability. If China can surpass US in supercomputing technology and 5G mobile technology, there is no reason to deny the same thing on chinese AESA radar progress.

However for now it is safe to say that Chinese AESA radar is still behind US.

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## AUSTERLITZ

antonius123 said:


> So? does SU30MKI use the same AESA used on F-22? otherwise your argument has no point.
> 
> Nobody know how far China has progress on AESA capability. If China can surpass US in supercomputing technology and 5G mobile technology, there is no reason to deny the same thing on chinese AESA radar progress.
> 
> However for now it is safe to say that Chinese AESA radar is still behind US.



Your figures on radar are so ridiculously inflated that its difficult to take you seriously.Really china space age tech -ahead of the world 20 yrs.Give it a break and sell that story to CCCP nerds.Really? - 0.1^m at 250 kms..stopped taking u seriously after that.There would be no need for stealth aircraft.J-11b radar can pick up f-22 easy and kill it,no reason to build j-20.

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## NKVD

antonius123 said:


> Then what is the better AESA that Super MKI can obtain?
> That strengthen the fact that 30MKI BVR capability is bellow J-11B due to AESA on the latter.


Due Fact the Fact J11b has No Significant Mature AESA than Russian Ones which has Generation Ahead Experience in Radar Development than Chinese

PS: J-11b aircraft you are Gloating here About is Chinese Assembled Knock-off of Russian Sukhoi-27



antonius123 said:


> And your point is ...? you want to say that MKI's radar should be better than chinese J-11B's AESA?
> 
> Still no expert doubt china ability in making performing AESA.


Yeah i Think you Should Go through My Previous Post Link About Chinese AESA Capability to Enlighten Yourself 
American Innovation: The Technological Maturity of Chinese AESA Technology & Strategic Impacts

Yeah Chinese who are still Importing Russians Engine,aircrafts,Air-defence Weapons Etc 
Yeah they are Really Ahead


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## The Great One

This guy is peddling the same in D.F.I
*********************/forum/threads/j-11bs-vs-su-30mki.47367/page-4


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## antonius123

NKVD said:


> Due Fact the Fact J11b is No Significant Mature AESA than Russian Ones which has Generation Ahead Experience in Radar Development than Chinese



That is your own assumption. 
Superficial and reckless assumption precisely. 

Russia was a generation ahead long time ago. Now it is on the other way round. You forget that China put a lot of money and resource for the R&D.
Even russian expert admit that they are behind chinese in term of avionics.



> PS: J-11b aircraft you are Gloating here About is Chinese Assembled Knock-off of Russian Sukhoi-27



Another ignorant and baseless claim.

J-11A is a chinese effort to reverse engineering the SU27 and IMPROVE the performance.
There are a lot of improvements made on the top of SU27 performance.

J-11B is a further improvement of J-11A.

Please educate yourself :
Shenyang J-11 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Your analysis is so superficial.





> Yeah i Think you Should Go through My Previous Post Link About Chinese AESA Capability to Enlighten Yourself
> American Innovation: The Technological Maturity of Chinese AESA Technology & Strategic Impacts
> 
> Yeah Chinese who are still Importing Russians Engine,aircrafts,Air-defence Weapons Etc
> Yeah they are Really Ahead



Why you always come up with superficial analysis and ignorance?

China's backwardness in engine technology doesnt meant that China should be behind in all other field of technology. In fact China has left Russia in the dust in many areas of technology.

Yes China is still behind in engine, but not in avionics, AESA, and stealth.
Western expert can see clearly how J-20 suggest more stealth capability than PAKFA from the shaping.



AUSTERLITZ said:


> Your figures on radar are so ridiculously inflated that its difficult to take you seriously.Really china space age tech -ahead of the world 20 yrs.Give it a break and sell that story to CCCP nerds.Really? - 0.1^m at 250 kms..stopped taking u seriously after that.There would be no need for stealth aircraft.J-11b radar can pick up f-22 easy and kill it,no reason to build j-20.



Well it is up to you to believe or not.

Before nobody believed that China can lead in Supercomputing tech beating Japan, same like Bullet Train, etc.

Your sourgrape cannot change reality


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## NKVD

antonius123 said:


> That is your own assumption.
> Superficial and reckless assumption precisely.
> 
> Russia was a generation ahead long time ago. Now it is on the other way round. You forget that China put a lot of money and resource for the R&D.
> Even russian expert admit that they are behind chinese in term of avionics.




Assumption Up-till now all your Arguments Lack Factual Data to Support your Point
Neither you have bother to Read by Comparative Analysis which is on Factual and Technical Parameter

Please Post which Russian Expert are Quoting or name of the Western Expert Please Post Link for your Baseless Arguments


antonius123 said:


> Another ignorant and baseless claim.
> 
> J-11A is a chinese effort to reverse engineering the SU27 and IMPROVE the performance.
> There are a lot of improvements made on the top of SU27 performance.
> 
> J-11B is a further improvement of J-11A.
> 
> Please educate yourself :
> Shenyang J-11 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Your analysis is so superficial.




This Ignorant Claim is From your Part 

Please Bother to read Before Posting Something your making Mockery of yourSelf on International Forums I State it From your Source only 

The *Shenyang J-11* (Chinese: 歼-11) with NATO reporting name: *Flanker B+* is a single-seat, twin-engine, jet fighter, whose airframe is based on the Soviet-designed Sukhoi Su-27 (NATO reporting name: *Flanker*) air superiority fighter. It is currently manufactured by the Shenyang Aircraft Corporation. The People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) of the People's Republic of China (PRC) is the sole operator of the aircraft.

The J-11 was finally born in 1995 as a Chinese version of the Soviet-designed Sukhoi Su-27SK air superiority fighter after China secured a $2.5 billion production agreement which licensed China to build 200 Su-27SK aircraft using Russian-supplied kits. Under the terms of the agreement, these aircraft would be outfitted with Russian avionics, radars and engines. 

Your Source :Shenyang J-11 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

PS: Like I Said Please Prepare Yourself For Technical and Factual Debate Before Coming on the Defense Forums for Self-boosting.Do Not Engage Any Senior Member Unless you got Technical Facts to Counter their Arguments 

TC 
NKVD


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## Stephen Cohen

SU 30 MKI is better ; No doubt about that


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## antonius123

NKVD said:


> Assumption Up-till now all your Arguments Lack Factual Data to Support your Point
> Neither you have bother to Read by Comparative Analysis which is on Factual and Technical Parameter
> 
> Please Post which Russian Expert are Quoting or name of the Western Expert Please Post Link for your Baseless Arguments



What Fact that you bring to support your claim that MKI is better?? none!

All J-11B, J-15, J-16, and J-11D are using AESA.


A new group of photographs which shows it with a grey nose, likely an active electronically scanned array radar from the Chengdu-based 607th Institute, has emerged and may be evidence that the aircraft has undergone or plans to undergo retrofit with AESA radar.[31]

*J-11D* - An upgraded variant of the J-11B, featuring an AESA radar from the 14th Institute, increased use of composite materials, more radar absorbent material, two extra hardpoints, in-flight refueling probe, an upgraded WS-10 engine with FADEC, new electronic warfare systems, and a new cockpit. The J-11D uses a similar fly-by-wire system as the J-16.[38][39]
Shenyang J-11 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Even your source mention about it. It seems you drag a source without reading carefully - only read what you prefer to see.




> This Ignorant Claim is From your Part
> 
> Please Bother to read Before Posting Something your making Mockery of yourSelf on International Forums I State it From your Source only
> 
> The *Shenyang J-11* (Chinese: 歼-11) with NATO reporting name: *Flanker B+* is a single-seat, twin-engine, jet fighter, whose airframe is based on the Soviet-designed Sukhoi Su-27 (NATO reporting name: *Flanker*) air superiority fighter. It is currently manufactured by the Shenyang Aircraft Corporation. The People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) of the People's Republic of China (PRC) is the sole operator of the aircraft.
> 
> The J-11 was finally born in 1995 as a Chinese version of the Soviet-designed Sukhoi Su-27SK air superiority fighter after China secured a $2.5 billion production agreement which licensed China to build 200 Su-27SK aircraft using Russian-supplied kits. Under the terms of the agreement, these aircraft would be outfitted with Russian avionics, radars and engines.
> 
> Your Source :Shenyang J-11 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> PS: Like I Said Please Prepare Yourself For Technical and Factual Debate Before Coming on the Defense Forums for Self-boosting.Do Not Engage Any Senior Member Unless you got Technical Facts to Counter their Arguments
> 
> TC
> NKVD




Did you??

Did you read it?? or you read but cannot comprehend?? or maybe idiot??   

Do you understand when people say it *improve*?? What make you so difficult to comprehend?

Now I am sure I am talking with an idiot

Please Bother to read Before Posting Something your making Mockery of yourSelf on International Forums 


The indigenous J-11B variant incorporates various Chinese materia*l modifications and upgrades to the airframe with improved manufacturing methods *in addition to the inclusion of domestic Chinese technologies such as radar, avionics suites and weaponry,[4][5][6][7] including anti-ship and PL-12 air-to-air missiles presumably for the role of a maritime strike aircraft. The alleged reason for the sudden stop in the production line of the J-11 was because it could no longer satisfy the PLAAF's requirements,[4] due to elements such as the obsolete avionics and radar, which were structured for aerial missions.[8]
Shenyang J-11 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*Stop using big size font, it is more important that you read, comprehend and think!*

*STOP Humiliate your self *



Stephen Cohen said:


> SU 30 MKI is better ; No doubt about that



Since when PESA is better than AESA??

Did you improve the RCS of SU-30 with MKI, as Chinese did with J-11A and J-11B?

Stop jingoistic.


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## danger007

antonius123 said:


> What Fact that you bring to support your claim that MKI is better?? none!
> 
> All J-11B, J-15, J-16, and J-11D are using AESA.
> 
> 
> A new group of photographs which shows it with a grey nose, likely an active electronically scanned array radar from the Chengdu-based 607th Institute, has emerged and may be evidence that the aircraft has undergone or plans to undergo retrofit with AESA radar.[31]
> 
> *J-11D* - An upgraded variant of the J-11B, featuring an AESA radar from the 14th Institute, increased use of composite materials, more radar absorbent material, two extra hardpoints, in-flight refueling probe, an upgraded WS-10 engine with FADEC, new electronic warfare systems, and a new cockpit. The J-11D uses a similar fly-by-wire system as the J-16.[38][39]
> Shenyang J-11 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Even your source mention about it. It seems you drag a source without reading carefully - only read what you prefer to see.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did you??
> 
> Did you read it?? or you read but cannot comprehend?? or maybe idiot??
> 
> Do you understand when people say it *improve*?? What make you so difficult to comprehend?
> 
> Now I am sure I am talking with an idiot
> 
> Please Bother to read Before Posting Something your making Mockery of yourSelf on International Forums
> 
> 
> The indigenous J-11B variant incorporates various Chinese materia*l modifications and upgrades to the airframe with improved manufacturing methods *in addition to the inclusion of domestic Chinese technologies such as radar, avionics suites and weaponry,[4][5][6][7] including anti-ship and PL-12 air-to-air missiles presumably for the role of a maritime strike aircraft. The alleged reason for the sudden stop in the production line of the J-11 was because it could no longer satisfy the PLAAF's requirements,[4] due to elements such as the obsolete avionics and radar, which were structured for aerial missions.[8]
> Shenyang J-11 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> *Stop using big size font, it is more important that you read, comprehend and think!*
> 
> *STOP Humiliate your self *
> 
> 
> 
> Since when PESA is better than AESA??
> 
> Did you improve the RCS of SU-30 with MKI, as Chinese did with J-11A and J-11B?
> 
> Stop jingoistic.




Wiki is hardly any source... there are plenty CCP fanboys who is busy with Internet stuff... so you want to say china is far ahead of US and Russia in radar tech????

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## antonius123

danger007 said:


> Wiki is hardly any source... there are plenty CCP fanboys who is busy with Internet stuff...



Then what data are you using when claiming that MKI is better than J-11B?

J-11B AESA is not simply from WIKI. There are western analyst who agree on that.

China has shown her capability in radar technology including AESA, from AWACS KJ-500 to Type 052C destroyer has already used AESA.



> so you want to say china is far ahead of US and Russia in radar tech????



Nope.

I am asking why you Indian so convinced that MKI can beat J-11B. And now I am starting to see the other way round 



Stephen Cohen said:


> SU 30 MKI is better ; No doubt about that




No doubt from your jinggoistic 

See RCS data bellow:

*SU-27 RCS*
= *15 square metter, *according to this:
Radar Cross Section (RCS)

vs

*SU-30MKI RCS*
The Su-30MKI's radar cross-section (RCS) is reportedly about* 20 square metres*, according to an Indian defence ministry official.[45]
Sukhoi Su-30MKI - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

vs

*J-11B RCS*
Redesigned air inlets of engine intakes to reduce the radar cross section, this coupled with the adoption of composite material, and application of radar absorbent material has reduced the radar cross section (RCS) of 15 square meters of Su-27SK to just >* 3 square meters of J-11B.*
China's J-11 Fighter Jet Modernization Program - ASIAN DEFENCE NEWS

RCS of SU30MKI (20 sqm) > SU-27 (15 sqm) > J-11B (3 sqm)

*If you compare SU-30MKI RCS is the highest or in the other word the MKI's stealth is the WORST among the three.*


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## NKVD

antonius123 said:


> Did you??
> 
> Did you read it?? or you read but cannot comprehend?? or maybe idiot??
> 
> Do you understand when people say it *improve*?? What make you so difficult to comprehend?
> 
> Now I am sure I am talking with an idiot
> 
> Please Bother to read Before Posting Something your making Mockery of yourSelf on International Forums
> 
> 
> The indigenous J-11B variant incorporates various Chinese materia*l modifications and upgrades to the airframe with improved manufacturing methods *in addition to the inclusion of domestic Chinese technologies such as radar, avionics suites and weaponry,[4][5][6][7] including anti-ship and PL-12 air-to-air missiles presumably for the role of a maritime strike aircraft. The alleged reason for the sudden stop in the production line of the J-11 was because it could no longer satisfy the PLAAF's requirements,[4] due to elements such as the obsolete avionics and radar, which were structured for aerial missions.[8]
> Shenyang J-11 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> *Stop using big size font, it is more important that you read, comprehend and think!*


J11b Become Indigenous By Just Doing Minor Modifications .Then Sukhoi-30 MKI is too Indigenous as its is Modified by HAL to Meet IAF Needs 

Stop humiliating your-self Mitsubishi Japan License produced F-16 and Added Some Modification to its Design Call it F-2 that Doesn't Make it Indigenous Design Basically it is A American Innovation not Japanese One 


antonius123 said:


> What Fact that you bring to support your claim that MKI is better?? none!
> 
> All J-11B, J-15, J-16, and J-11D are using AESA.





antonius123 said:


> A new group of photographs which shows it with a grey nose, likely an active electronically scanned array radar from the Chengdu-based 607th Institute, has emerged and may be evidence that the aircraft has undergone or plans to undergo retrofit with AESA radar.[31]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *J-11D* - An upgraded variant of the J-11B, featuring an AESA radar from the 14th Institute, increased use of composite materials, more radar absorbent material, two extra hardpoints, in-flight refueling probe, an upgraded WS-10 engine with FADEC, new electronic warfare systems, and a new cockpit. The J-11D uses a similar fly-by-wire system as the J-16.[38][39]
> 
> Shenyang J-11 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Even your source mention about it. It seems you drag a source without reading carefully - only read what you prefer to see.



Go through My Post #200 I already Answered your questions J-11b is Slightly better Because it uses AESA and MKI is Using PESA 
Though Sukhoi MKI have better EW & Jamming As it uses Best EW Elta EL/M-8222




antonius123 said:


> *J-11B RCS*
> Redesigned air inlets of engine intakes to reduce the radar cross section, this coupled with the adoption of composite material, and application of radar absorbent material has reduced the radar cross section (RCS) of 15 square meters of Su-27SK to just >* 3 square meters of J-11B.*
> China's J-11 Fighter Jet Modernization Program - ASIAN DEFENCE NEWS
> 
> RCS of SU30MKI (20 sqm) > SU-27 (15 sqm) > J-11B (3 sqm)
> 
> *If you compare SU-30MKI RCS is the highest or in the other word the MKI's stealth is the WORST among the three.*


J11B RCS Figure 3 Sqm Figure is Farce When you Follow Even Rafale with its Full Weapon Load has RCS upto 3-4 Sqm 

Most Advanced Flanker SU-35S have RCS around 8 Sqm Wonder Where your Figures are coming About Canard Fighters 
you are Making up Figures For Self boosting Reasons

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## antonius123

NKVD said:


> J11b Become Indigenous By Just Doing Minor Modifications .Then Sukhoi-30 MKI is too Indigenous as its is Modified by HAL to Meet IAF Needs
> 
> Stop humiliating your-self Mitsubishi Japan License produced F-16 and Added Some Modification to its Design Call it F-2 that Doesn't Make it Indigenous Design Basically it is A American Innovation not Japanese One



Minor???

Did you read the article, or keep playing ignorance?

Composite on airframce, Advanced avionics, WS-10 engines, improve air intake, MAWS, IRST, weaponry, application of RAMS, modification of air inlets, etc. Did SU-30MKI experience likewise? 

*J-11B* - An indigenised multirole fighter using a Flanker type airframe and advanced Chinese avionics, WS-10A engine, weaponry and technologies, reduced RCS, MAWS, IRST, and composites to lighten the airframe weight by 700 kg.[6][27][28] It has been said that the J-11B is over 90% indigenous.[29] It has been reported that more than 2 regiments of J-11B are currently in service. In May 2007, the existence of J-11B was confirmed by the Chinese government for the first time when state-run Chinese TV stations aired a report on the J-11B in PLAAF service. It has been claimed that the J-11B is planned to incorporate an AESA radar.[30] A new group of photographs which shows it with a grey nose, likely an active electronically scanned array radar from the Chengdu-based 607th Institute, has emerged and may be evidence that the aircraft has undergone or plans to undergo retrofit with AESA radar.[31]
Shenyang J-11 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia






> Go through My Post #200 I already Answered your questions J-11b is Slightly better Because it uses AESA and MKI is Using PESA
> Though Sukhoi MKI have better EW & Jamming As it uses Best EW Elta EL/M-8222



Better jamming?? Do you know AESA with LPI is almost impossible to be jammed? It is PESA of MKI that is easier to be jammed.

In electronic warfare AESA will beat PESA.

Thats why your claim that MKI should have better jamming and EW system is simply Jingoistic!

The Advantage of AESA above PESA is not slight as you think, but HUGE!

AESA is stealth, difficult to be detected and difficult to be jammed. If MKI's radar is not stealth the enemy's rwr or radar guided missile (like PL-12 or PL-21) will be able to detect and guided by your own radar wave, except you shut off the radar (but it means you become blind).

Thats why all major countries are racing for the AESA technology.



NKVD said:


> J
> 
> J11B RCS Figure 3 Sqm Figure is Farce When you Follow Even Rafale with its Full Weapon Load has RCS upto 3-4 Sqm
> 
> Most Advanced Flanker SU-35S have RCS around 8 Sqm Wonder Where your Figures are coming About Canard Fighters
> you are Making up Figures For Self boosting Reasons




Why you consider SU-35S RCS should be lower than J-11B'rcs?
Compared to J-11B, SU-35S clear advantage is on its Engine, but not on electronics nor RCS.

My source is clear.

*1) The wide adoption of composite material (mainly carbon fiber) for the surfaces, reducing the weight of the aircraft for more than 700 kg, while the life of the composite part is increased over 10,000 hours in comparison to the original part built from steel.

2) Redesigned air inlets of engine intakes to reduce the radar cross section, this coupled with the adoption of composite material, and application of radar absorbent material has reduced the radar cross section (RCS) of 15 square meters of Su-27SK to just >3 square meters of J-11B. *

China's J-11 Fighter Jet Modernization Program - ASIAN DEFENCE NEWS


Composite material (mainly carbon fibre) + redesign air inlets - that make J-11B RCS reduced alot.
J-11B is also use RAM.

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## NKVD

antonius123 said:


> inor???
> 
> Did you read the article, or keep playing ignorance?d
> 
> Composite on airframce, Advanced avionics, WS-10 engines, improve air intake, MAWS, IRST, weaponry, application of RAMS, modification of air inlets, etc. Did SU-30MKI experience likewise?
> 
> *J-11B* - An indigenised multirole fighter using a Flanker type airframe and advanced Chinese avionics, WS-10A engine, weaponry and technologies, reduced RCS, MAWS, IRST, and composites to lighten the airframe weight by 700 kg.[6][27][28] It has been said that the J-11B is over 90% indigenous.[29] It has been reported that more than 2 regiments of J-11B are currently in service. In May 2007, the existence of J-11B was confirmed by the Chinese government for the first time when state-run Chinese TV stations aired a report on the J-11B in PLAAF service. It has been claimed that the J-11B is planned to incorporate an AESA radar.[30] A new group of photographs which shows it with a grey nose, likely an active electronically scanned array radar from the Chengdu-based 607th Institute, has emerged and may be evidence that the aircraft has undergone or plans to undergo retrofit with AESA radar.[31]
> Shenyang J-11 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



I just Given you Mitsubishi F-2 Example to make it Easier Eventually the Mitsubishi *J/APG-1 *AESA was First Operational AESA in the World on fighter 

Mitsubishi F-2 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Is Hard For you to Understand Modification Doesn't mean that you are Original Innovator of the Product
I mean to say that there are Various Modified version of AK-47 but that doesn't overshadow the Fact that All modification done Are on the Basis of Original Design which was Russian Innovation 



antonius123 said:


> Why you consider SU-35S RCS should be lower than J-11B'rcs?
> Compared to J-11B, SU-35S clear advantage is on its Engine, but not on electronics nor RCS.
> 
> My source is clear.
> 
> *1) The wide adoption of composite material (mainly carbon fiber) for the surfaces, reducing the weight of the aircraft for more than 700 kg, while the life of the composite part is increased over 10,000 hours in comparison to the original part built from steel.
> 
> 2) Redesigned air inlets of engine intakes to reduce the radar cross section, this coupled with the adoption of composite material, and application of radar absorbent material has reduced the radar cross section (RCS) of 15 square meters of Su-27SK to just >3 square meters of J-11B. *
> 
> China's J-11 Fighter Jet Modernization Program - ASIAN DEFENCE NEWS
> 
> 
> Composite material (mainly carbon fibre) + redesign air inlets - that make J-11B RCS reduced alot.
> J-11B is also use RAM.


Due you Even Know the Basic of Aviation Design of Fighters.J11B is Canard Based Fighter based on same principle of 
Sukhoi is 27s which is heavy Canard based Fighter 





*Crew:* 1

*Length:* 21.9 m (72 ft)

*Wingspan:* 14.7 m (48 ft 3 in)

*Height:* 5.92 m (19 ft 6 in)

*Wing area:* 62 m² (667 ft²)

compare it with for Example Jf-17 






*Crew:* 1

*Length:* 14.93 m (49 ft)

*Wingspan:* 9.45 m (31 ft, including 2 wingtip missiles)

*Height:* 4.72 m (15 ft 6 in)

*Wing area:* 24.4 m² (263 ft²[119])

So you Really think that without Defying the LAW of Physics of Aviation is it Possible for J11B the heavy Canard Based Fighter to Achieve RCS of Small and Light Weight Aircraft Like Jf-17

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## antonius123

NKVD said:


> I just Given you Mitsubishi F-2 Example to make it Easier Eventually the Mitsubishi *J/APG-1 *AESA was First Operational AESA in the World on fighter
> 
> Mitsubishi F-2 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Is Hard For you to Understand Modification Doesn't mean that you are Original Innovator of the Product
> I mean to say that there are Various Modified version of AK-47 but that doesn't overshadow the Fact that All modification done Are on the Basis of Original Design which was Russian Innovation




Is hard for you to understand other's statement?

Who said AESA is Chinese innovator?

I've asked you: did MKI experience the huge modification as J-11B did? same question goes to Mitsubishi F-2.
MKI only modified on electronics, and even the electronics is not Indian indigenous but from other country (France, Israel, etc), therefore barely Indian indigenous there; far different case with J-11B.

If you fail to comprehend, then I dont wonder if you fail to answer too.



> Due you Even Know the Basic of Aviation Design Fighters j11b is Canard Based Fighter
> Sukhoi is 27s is heavy Canard based Fighter
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Crew:* 1
> 
> *Length:* 21.9 m (72 ft)
> 
> *Wingspan:* 14.7 m (48 ft 3 in)
> 
> *Height:* 5.92 m (19 ft 6 in)
> 
> *Wing area:* 62 m² (667 ft²)
> 
> compare it with for Example Jf-17
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Crew:* 1
> 
> *Length:* 14.93 m (49 ft)
> 
> *Wingspan:* 9.45 m (31 ft, including 2 wingtip missiles)
> 
> *Height:* 4.72 m (15 ft 6 in)
> 
> *Wing area:* 24.4 m² (263 ft²[119])
> 
> So you Really think that without Defying the LAW of Physics of Aviation is it Possible for J11B the heavy Canard Based Fighter to Achieve RCS of Small and Light Weight Aircraft Like Jf-17




Do you know what the major contributor of (frontal) RCS?

If you read the article and my explanation above, you wont ask this silly question.

I've told you before: adoption of composite material + *redesign of air inlet of the engine* + ram has reduced greatly the RCS. Why is it so difficult for you to comprehend?


Educate yourself => It is "Engine Blade" that is the major contribute of RCS, not CANARD! and the redesign of air inlet purpose is to hide this engine blade from being exposed to radar.
Stop bullshitting about canard, there is no citation support your imagination that Canard will contribute RCS the most.


*So the conclusion is: with AESA + lower RCS J-11B will defeat SU-30 MKI in BVR engagement. Not to mention if combining with deadly BVRAAM ramjet PL-21.*

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## NKVD

antonius123 said:


> I've asked you: did MKI experience the huge modification as J-11B did? same question goes to Mitsubishi F-2.
> MKI only modified on electronics, and even the electronics is not Indian indigenous but from other country (France, Israel, etc), therefore barely Indian indigenous there; far different case with J-11B.
> 
> If you fail to comprehend, then I dont wonder if you fail to answer too.


You Fail to Comprehend that Japanese Innovation Because chinese Can't As they Usually Copy Stuff 

Some differences in the F-2 from the F-16A:


a 25% larger wing area
composite materials used to reduce overall weight and radar signature
longer and wider nose to accommodate a J/APG-1/J/APG-2 active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar. The F-2 was the first operational military aircraft in the world to feature an AESA radar, before the F-22 Raptor’s AN/APG-77AESA radar.
larger tailplane
larger air intake
three-piece cockpit canopy
capabilities for four ASM-1 or ASM-2 anti-ship missiles, four AAMs, and additional fuel tanks
Design Differences







Now Find the Difference btw MKI & J11B 
J-11B






Now Compare it with Sukhoi-30 MKI






Spot the Difference By Examining the Both Design Its Impossible For RCS of these Heavy Canard Based Fighter to Reduce there RCS Upto Size of Small Size Aircrafts 

IM Not An Idiot who buys CCP Propagandize Figures its Fanboys Stuff



antonius123 said:


> So the conclusion is: with AESA + lower RCS J-11B will defeat SU-30 MKI in BVR engagement. Not to mention if combining with deadly BVRAAM ramjet PL-21


Yeah whatever makes you Sleep better At Night Pal

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## antonius123

NKVD said:


> You Fail to Comprehend that Japanese is
> 
> Some differences in the F-2 from the F-16A:
> 
> 
> a 25% larger wing area
> composite materials used to reduce overall weight and radar signature
> longer and wider nose to accommodate a J/APG-1/J/APG-2 active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar. The F-2 was the first operational military aircraft in the world to feature an AESA radar, before the F-22 Raptor’s AN/APG-77AESA radar.
> larger tailplane
> larger air intake
> three-piece cockpit canopy
> capabilities for four ASM-1 or ASM-2 anti-ship missiles, four AAMs, and additional fuel tanks
> Design Differences



What you are talking mostly is about SHAPE.

How about Engine? how about weaponry? how about the avionics (other than AESA radar)?




> Now Find the Difference btw MKI & J11B
> J-11B
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now Compare it with Sukhoi-30 MKI
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spot the Difference By Examining the Both Design Its Impossible For RCS of these Heavy Canard Based Fighter to Reduce there RCS Upto Size of Small Size Aircrafts




Such an ignorant 

Of course the shape may look the same.

As I told you (and you fail to understand) that J-11B is still using the same Frame of SU-27.

The difference are: advanced Chinese avionics, WS-10A engine, weaponry and technologies, reduced RCS, MAWS, IRST, and composites to lighten the airframe weight by 700 kg. Even the engine!



NKVD said:


> Yeah whatever makes you Sleep better At Night Pal




Your fact and source cannot deny it right? only your ignorance and stupidity can

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## NKVD

antonius123 said:


> Such an ignorant
> 
> Of course the shape may look the same.
> 
> As I told you (and you fail to understand) that J-11B is still using the same Frame of SU-27.
> 
> The difference are: advanced Chinese avionics, WS-10A engine, weaponry and technologies, reduced RCS, MAWS, IRST, and composites to lighten the airframe weight by 700 kg. Even the engine!


And This Makes it RCS less 12 Sqm What about Wing Area ,Length and Height of the Aircraft 
HoW is It Possible It is opposite To the LAW of Physics of Aviation Really 

And As For your Mythical WS-10A-powered J-10B was seen in July 2011, but the engine did not power the initial J-10B production batch, possibly because of production or performance issues 
Western media reported that the WS-10A approached the performance of the Saturn AL-31, but took much longer than the AL-31 to develop thrust.Furthermore, reportedly the engine only generated 110–125 kilonewtons (25,000–28,000 lbf) of thrust.

Shenyang WS-10 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



antonius123 said:


> Your fact and source cannot deny it right? only your ignorance and stupidity can



Only you are Looking Ignorant Here Who Ever Observing your Post get It My Facts are Spot on ASk for Professional Advice

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## BoQ77

Antonius is trying to persuade us that a Su27 airframe based aircraft ( J-11 ) after unproven improvement by China could beat the latest improvement of Su-30 ( MKI, SM) or Su-35.

It's very hard for copier to understand that with copying, there's very little of innovation, as a matter of fact, they struggle to reach the next gen aircraft. not even 4.5G gen they can reach, never think abt 5 gen.

Supercruise feature for example is too luxury to Chinese aircrafts.

It's not easy as we fighting in the papers,

1. If J11 is more advanced, why China order big quantity of Su-30MKK from Russia? and later another order of Su30Mk2
2. We all know that Su-30MKK is weaker than Su-30MKI, Su-30MKM ... and of course Su-30SM, Su-35.
But there're a guy own J-11 still have demand to buy that version ( Su-30MKK )

Don't mislead as saying mount AESA radar onto any aircraft and it become unbeatable.
Japanese, Israeli is the masters of AESA radar, but they didn't talk that way.


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## antonius123

NKVD said:


> And This Makes it RCS less 12 Sqm What about Wing Area ,Length and Height of the Aircraft
> HoW is It Possible It is opposite To the LAW of Physics of Aviation Really





So??

What the physical law that is against? Did you read my explanation about canard, or ignorant again?



> And As For your Mythical WS-10A-powered J-10B was seen in July 2011, but the engine did not power the initial J-10B production batch, possibly because of production or performance issues
> Western media reported that the WS-10A approached the performance of the Saturn AL-31, but took much longer than the AL-31 to develop thrust.Furthermore, reportedly the engine only generated 110–125 kilonewtons (25,000–28,000 lbf) of thrust.





> Shenyang WS-10 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



So??

Doesnt matter the initial batch doesnt use but the later ones use. This is indigenous.
Still the thurst produced is comparable to AL-31.

With weight less than SU-30MKI due to composite materials, the TWR should be higher, again the advantage over MKI.




> Only you are Looking Ignorant Here Who Ever Observing your Post get It My Facts are Spot on ASk for Professional Advice



You dont bring fact that can support you except jingoistic.



BoQ77 said:


> Antonius is trying to persuade us that a Su27 airframe based aircraft ( J-11 ) after unproven improvement by China could beat the latest improvement of Su-30 ( MKI, SM) or Su-35.
> 
> It's very hard for copier to understand that with copying, there's very little of innovation, as a matter of fact, they struggle to reach the next gen aircraft. not even 4.5G gen they can reach, never think abt 5 gen.
> 
> Supercruise feature for example is too luxury to Chinese aircrafts.
> 
> It's not easy as we fighting in the papers,



You are talking nonsense. Only 117S on SU-35 that can supercruise. Not MKI nor MKK can supercruise.

What you are talking is purely your own imagination or self delusion.

I've explain you that China is not only copy but improving, and J-11B is the lot improvement of J-11A which is also a lot improvement of SU-27.



> 1. If J11 is more advanced, why China order big quantity of Su-30MKK from Russia? and later another order of Su30Mk2
> 2. We all know that Su-30MKK is weaker than Su-30MKI, Su-30MKM ... and of course Su-30SM, Su-35.
> But there're a guy own J-11 still have demand to buy that version ( Su-30MKK )



Hey wake up! we are talking about J-11B! not J-11.

SU-30MKK is "Long Range Strike Fighter" while J-11B is "Air Superiority Fighter". Could you distinguish that? if could you should not ask why China still buy SU-30MKK, because the purpose is different. Now China has J-16 the more potent strike fighter than SU-30MKK, they dont need MKK anymore.

Educate yourself: Shenyang J-11 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Sukhoi Su-30MKK - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Shenyang J-16 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> Don't mislead as saying mount AESA radar onto any aircraft and it become unbeatable.
> Japanese, Israeli is the masters of AESA radar, but they didn't talk that way.



Nobody said become unbeatable. It is either your stupidity or your ignorance.

What I am saying is AESA have huge advantage above PESA.
AESA is difficult to be jammed, and stealthy (cannot be traced or detected by radar warning receiver).
You can google by yourself if you still dont know about it.

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## BoQ77

antonius : could you please never use any "stupid" word in discussion?
I know what you know in discussion on Izumo, Hyuga ... before. But you may already study more on that.

I have no prejudice about others. So feel free to discuss with your logical argument. Don't curse
---------------
We have the common phrase "heard 100 is no valuable as seen 1".
It's terribly true on this.

About the role, what could you name us what role for "J11A / J10A / J10B / J11B / J11D / J16 / ... Su 27, Su30mkk, su30mk2, su 35
I don't think China need too many type of aircrafts like that. But I'm outsider, I don't know well about that. But so weird that China still continue to import very similarity Su-30 if they could make advance J-11B, why they don't develop the other role model based on that airframe?

When someone start to compare J11B vs Su-30MKI, and he's a Chinese. I know his purpose to calm down his mind on the think of being safe if J11B could defeat Su-30MKI.

No, It's not easy like that, Su-30MKI and Su-30SM are similar and are the best choice among Su-30 variants.
It's not surprise to see the innovator ( Russia ) chosen both Su-30SM and Su-35 at this moment for their airforce.

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## phantomrush

Everything is much simpler. Chinese Su-27SK (J-11) were powered by the AL-31. Once, there was a modification in, in which they tried to bridge the Chinese missiles and engines. And obviously, it failed, because until now the Chinese aircraft flying with the old R-73, and buy engines from the Russian Federation.
This is a good example. A copy is always worse than the original.


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## HariPrasad

kashith said:


> they look identical....only difference would be the avionics



They copied Su 33 naval aircraft into J 15. Look at the capability of chinese copied J15 in the word of Chines scientiest himself.

Chinese Media Takes Aim at J-15 Fighter | Defense News | defensenews.com

This will give you an idea in difference in the capability of both the aircraft.

Chinese A/C are big fiasco and have been exposed by chinese scientists themselves. They said that J31 is no match to F35. J15 is also exposed for its pathetic load carrying, J20 for design faults, J10 is criticized for not being equal to Rafale.

This is done by Chinese scientists and nobody else.

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## BoQ77

Copier always need prototype for their copying.
Let's see what was prototype for stealth fighter?


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## antonius123

BoQ77 said:


> antonius : could you please never use any "stupid" word in discussion?
> I know what you know in discussion on Izumo, Hyuga ... before. But you may already study more on that.
> 
> I have no prejudice about others. So feel free to discuss with your logical argument. Don't curse
> ---------------
> We have the common phrase "heard 100 is no valuable as seen 1".
> It's terribly true on this.
> 
> About the role, what could you name us what role for "J11A / J10A / J10B / J11B / J11D / J16 / ... Su 27, Su30mkk, su30mk2, su 35
> I don't think China need too many type of aircrafts like that. But I'm outsider, I don't know well about that. But so weird that China still continue to import very similarity Su-30 if they could make advance J-11B, why they don't develop the other role model based on that airframe?
> 
> When someone start to compare J11B vs Su-30MKI, and he's a Chinese. I know his purpose to calm down his mind on the think of being safe if J11B could defeat Su-30MKI.
> 
> No, It's not easy like that, Su-30MKI and Su-30SM are similar and are the best choice among Su-30 variants.
> It's not surprise to see the innovator ( Russia ) chosen both Su-30SM and Su-35 at this moment for their airforce.



Well you can read in the wiki provided above. J11 is air superiority. A,B,D is the improvement, just like F16A/C/D. J16 is striking purpose. J15 is carrier based a/c. So I dont see any overlapping there.

Are you sure you have no prejudice nor biass??  
I've seen your reputation in the other forum where you tend to bash everything about China. That is your reputation.

Talking about no prejudice - then why you are questioning my opinion (that J-11B should be superior than MKI) while you dont question any indian claim the otherway round? no prejudice eh? 



phantomrush said:


> Everything is much simpler. Chinese Su-27SK (J-11) were powered by the AL-31. Once, there was a modification in, in which they tried to bridge the Chinese missiles and engines. And obviously, it failed, because until now the Chinese aircraft flying with the old R-73, and buy engines from the Russian Federation.
> This is a good example. A copy is always worse than the original.




No you are not updated. J-11B has been using WS-10.

Even you dont know anything about J-11 except your own assumption and prejudice.

In the above I have shown what are the improvements and advantages above SU-27 that J-11B have.

It is sad so many ignorant people.



HariPrasad said:


> They copied Su 33 naval aircraft into J 15. Look at the capability of chinese copied J15 in the word of Chines scientiest himself.
> 
> Chinese Media Takes Aim at J-15 Fighter | Defense News | defensenews.com
> 
> This will give you an idea in difference in the capability of both the aircraft.
> 
> Chinese A/C are big fiasco and have been exposed by chinese scientists themselves. They said that J31 is no match to F35. J15 is also exposed for its pathetic load carrying, J20 for design faults, J10 is criticized for not being equal to Rafale.
> 
> This is done by Chinese scientists and nobody else.




These are the evidence about how bias you most Indian and vietnam about china. 

The media is talking about the current weakness of J-15 which is also plagued likewise on SU-33 naval: unable to take off from air skii jump carier deck with full load due to the TWR. *This also happen with SU-33 on russian a/c carrier.*

*This problem will be solved when China already has Catapult carrier.*

So sad seeing ignorance

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## phantomrush

antonius123 said:


> No you are not updated. J-11B has been using WS-10.



whose life Me.262...
this tale


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## HariPrasad

antonius123 said:


> These are the evidence about how bias you most Indian and vietnam about china.
> 
> The media is talking about the current weakness of J-15 which is also plagued likewise on SU-33 naval: unable to take off from air skii jump carier deck with full load due to the TWR. *This also happen with SU-33 on russian a/c carrier.*
> 
> *This problem will be solved when China already has Catapult carrier.*



Do not blame me. It is said by your scientist. The load carrying is just 2000 kG with a very limited range. Forget about Su 33, Our small MIG 29 carries almist double the paylload and accelerates very fast. Low T/W ratio is a major deficiency. If you want to undermine it, it is your choice.

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## antonius123

HariPrasad said:


> Do not blame me. It is said by your scientist. The load carrying is just 2000 kG with a very limited range. Forget about Su 33, Our small MIG 29 carries almist double the paylload and accelerates very fast. Low T/W ratio is a major deficiency. If you want to undermine it, it is your choice.




LOL. The reporter and scientist is correct.

You are the one who missunderstood with your post #222.

\/



HariPrasad said:


> They copied Su 33 naval aircraft into J 15. Look at the capability of chinese copied J15 in the word of Chines scientiest himself.
> 
> Chinese Media Takes Aim at J-15 Fighter | Defense News | defensenews.com
> 
> This will give you an idea in difference in the capability of both the aircraft.
> 
> Chinese A/C are big fiasco and have been exposed by chinese scientists themselves. They said that J31 is no match to F35. J15 is also exposed for its pathetic load carrying, J20 for design faults, J10 is criticized for not being equal to Rafale.
> 
> This is done by Chinese scientists and nobody else.



The J-15 capabilities is obviously superior than SU-33.
But both cannot take off from skii jump carrier with full load => this is what you dont understand.


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## phantomrush

antonius123 said:


> The J-15 capabilities is obviously superior than SU-33.


For some obvious? For the Chinese? While all the Chinese-disgusting quality. Approximately AK-47 from the USSR and China. And why if everything is fine in the J-15, China is buying the S-300, S-400, and he wants to buy the Su-35? Why Russia is not buying from China J-31?


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## antonius123

phantomrush said:


> For some obvious? For the Chinese? While all the Chinese-disgusting quality. Approximately AK-47 from the USSR and China. And why if everything is fine in the J-15, China is buying the S-300, S-400, and he wants to buy the Su-35? Why Russia is not buying from China J-31?




You don't know about that yet?

First: the deals was only rumours.
Second: China consider to buy that because of S117 engine where Russia won't sell without packaged with su35 or S missile.

In fact China almost stop buying from Russia. If Chinese quality is bad then why China stop buying those stuff from russia?

All your judgement is merely prejudice.

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## phantomrush

antonius123 said:


> All your judgement is merely prejudice.


We'll see. And while more bad copies you have not gone anywhere.


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## BoQ77

phantomrush said:


> We'll see. And while more bad copies you have not gone anywhere.



Please create another thread for comparison to stealth F-35B because the delivery is going on ...


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## antonius123

phantomrush said:


> We'll see. And while more bad copies you have not gone anywhere.





China has reduced buying from russia and now compete with russia, and you say go nowhere?


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## hotpizza

Jazzbot said:


> though i am not specialist or military guy, but as per my little knowledge Su-30MKI will have advantage.
> 
> however i am looking forward towards some expert opinion.


technically true, but man is the main factor to won in a battle



Peregrine said:


> hi
> Su-30 has 2-D TVC engine what about J-11b?


J-11B will not apply any TVC....


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## rcrmj

phantomrush said:


> For some obvious? For the Chinese? While all the Chinese-disgusting quality. Approximately AK-47 from the USSR and China. And why if everything is fine in the J-15, China is buying the S-300, S-400, and he wants to buy the Su-35? Why Russia is not buying from China J-31?


your knowledge is appalling, China produces the best qualities if the prices are right```there must be a reason that China exports more high tech products than U.S and Japan combined ```` 

i reckon your 'greatest country in the world' (by Bhorat) has quite a difficulty of catching-up with the latest update of modern world dont you?



BoQ77 said:


> Copier always need prototype for their copying.
> Let's see what was prototype for stealth fighter?


thats why you guys just look like Chinese, coz you copied everything from us```thanks for admitting that

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## phantomrush

rcrmj said:


> your knowledge is appalling, China produces the best qualities if the prices are right```there must be a reason that China exports more high tech products than U.S and Japan combined ````
> 
> i reckon your 'greatest country in the world' (by Bhorat) has quite a difficulty of catching-up with the latest update of modern world dont you?


any problems we have. All we need - we will buy. Keeping aircraft in 2000 are not going to, and so we have the largest and most modern aircraft in the region after Russia. We first need a military transport aircraft.
Most importantly, we have modernized MiG-31.


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## rcrmj

phantomrush said:


> any problems we have. All we need - we will buy. Keeping aircraft in 2000 are not going to, and so we have the largest and most modern aircraft in the region after Russia. We first need a military transport aircraft.
> Most importantly, we have modernized MiG-31.


dude, cant read your english````or logic``


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## phantomrush

antonius123 said:


> China has reduced buying from russia and now compete with russia, and you say go nowhere?


MiG-21? 



rcrmj said:


> dude, cant read your english````or logic``


googletranslate


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## BoQ77

My idea, China could improve their J11 to J11Z, still can't beat Su-30MKI easily.
Their Su-30MK2 still the best air fighter they have.


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## HariPrasad

antonius123 said:


> The J-15 capabilities is obviously superior than SU-33.
> But both cannot take off from skii jump carrier with full load => this is what you dont understand.



Same way J31 is superior to F35 and J20 is superior to F22. Now happy?


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## antonius123

BoQ77 said:


> My idea, China could improve their J11 to J11Z, still can't beat Su-30MKI easily.
> Their Su-30MK2 still the best air fighter they have.



Because Vietnam has SU-30 series? 

Dont you remember how vietnam SU-30 powerless and lock by chineseJ-10A several times, that make vietnam then turn servant mode and send a official to Beijing to hear their master's orders.




HariPrasad said:


> Same way J31 is superior to F35 and J20 is superior to F22. Now happy?



You both are blind and bias in spite of evidence and explanation given to you.



hotpizza said:


> technically true, but man is the main factor to won in a battle
> 
> 
> J-11B will not apply any TVC....



TVC only help slightly during dogfight.

In BVR it can help nothing. AESA, lower RCS, superb BVRAAM rule.


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## BoQ77

antonius123 said:


> Because Vietnam has SU-30 series?
> 
> Dont you remember how vietnam SU-30 powerless and lock by chineseJ-10A several times, that make vietnam then turn servant mode and send a official to Beijing to hear their master's orders.
> 
> .



Don't get what you mean? Vietnam and China, both have Su30, Su27 ...
And the your later sentence is meaningless in discussion. 
Now China delegator just visit Vietnam for arrange the visit of Xi to Vietnam


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## antonius123

BoQ77 said:


> Don't get what you mean? Vietnam and China, both have Su30, Su27 ...
> And the your later sentence is meaningless in discussion.
> Now China delegator just visit Vietnam for arrange the visit of Xi to Vietnam




I mean your supa dupa 30MKK2 was locked by chinese J-10A several times before.


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## BoQ77

antonius123 said:


> I mean your supa dupa 30MKK2 was locked by chinese J-10A several times before.



Where? in Spratly ?
I have no idea on this, never heard.






correct is Su30MK2V. What's J10A ?

Do you mean J10A much better than J11B ?


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## antonius123

BoQ77 said:


> Where? in Spratly ?
> I have no idea on this, never heard.
> correct is 30MK2. What's J10A ?
> 
> Do you mean J10A much better than J11B ?



J-11B is better than J-10A

J-11B > J-10A > SU30MK2


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## BoQ77

antonius123 said:


> J-11B is better than J-10A
> 
> J-11B > J-10A > SU30MK2



I wonder why China order Su30MK2 at high price, while they tried their best to export J10A at very cheap price?

My order: Su30MKI > Su30MK2 > Su30MKK > Su27 > J-11A/B > J10B > J10A

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## antonius123

BoQ77 said:


> I wonder why China order Su30MK2 at high price, while they tried their best to export J10A at very cheap price?
> 
> My order: Su30MKI > Su30MK2 > Su30MKK > Su27 > J-11A/B > J10B > J10A




I've told you 30MK2 is striking fighter, J-11B is Air Superiority.
Now China has J-16 which is much more advanced than 30MK2, they are not interested anymore with 30MK2.
Now they have J-11D then they are not interested with SU-35 except the engine S117 only.

Your order is just your wishful thinking. PESA never win AESA esp with lower RCS (assuming pilot skill etc the same). I have explained a lot in this and previous pages. 
Stop being ignorant.

Your 30MK has been locked many time by J-10A without ability to locate the J-10A position, it show 30MK performance is far bellow even J-10A leave alone the B version (J-10B and J-11B).
Vietnam SU-30 locked by J-10, 10 times


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## BoQ77

antonius123 said:


> Your 30MK has been locked many time by J-10A without ability to locate the J-10A position, it show 30MK performance is far bellow even J-10A leave alone the B version (J-10B and J-11B).
> Vietnam SU-30 locked by J-10, 10 times



Well The rumor written in 2011, I'm not sure how it could happen, where and howto?
They claimed the exercise with Thang Long ( 371? ) division in Southern of Vietnam, but as I know that since that time until this moment, there's no Su-30 in "Thang Long or 371 division" put in Southern region or near China border. And Thang Long received the first Su-30 in 2012

An air exercise between China and Vietnam is unlikely. See post #26 in the link, he said that fake news.

As your logic, if Vietnam realized J10A could defeat Su-30MK2 ( lol )
If your rumor is true, Vietnam must change to buy other type. But they didn't, they continue to order more and more Su-30MK2 since 2011.

We learn a fact that J-16 is clone of Su-30MKK.


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## antonius123

BoQ77 said:


> Well The rumor written in 2011, I'm not sure how it could happen, where and howto?
> They claimed the exercise with Thang Long ( 371? ) division in Southern of Vietnam, but as I know that since that time until this moment, there's no Su-30 in "Thang Long or 371 division" put in Southern region or near China border. And Thang Long received the first Su-30 in 2012
> 
> An air exercise between China and Vietnam is unlikely. See post #26 in the link, he said that fake news.



This is your bad habit. You always consider your ignorance as truth.

If it never happen as you said then why there is such a conversation in that thread?




> As your logic, if Vietnam realized J10A could defeat Su-30MK2 ( lol )
> If your rumor is true, Vietnam must change to buy other type. But they didn't, they continue to order more and more Su-30MK2 since 2011.



Another your bad habit : logical fallacy.
If Vietnam doesnt buy Eurofighter Typhoon or Rafale, or SU-35 in order to balance China, it doesnt mean that they agree that their Su-30MK2 can handle J10A. 

Vietnam will never be able to balance China AF power. she should approach either China or US.



> We learn a fact that J-16 is clone of Su-30MKK.



That is not a learning, that is ignorance.
There are many advanced things on J-16 that Su-30MKK doesnt have. Why keep stubborn on ignorance?


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## BoQ77

antonius123 said:


> This is your bad habit. You always consider your ignorance as truth.
> 
> If it never happen as you said then why there is such *a conversation in that thread*?



Let prove that it happens, I keep my right to doubt on it with my evidence.
At the time, there're only Su-30MK2V in 370 division, and it's not Thang Long

In 2011, there're only 12 Su30MK2V for 370 division, in Southern assigned to 935 Regiment
In June 2012, 371 ( Thang Long ) division receive first 3 of Su30MK2V assign to 923 Regiment ( in Middle land of Vietnam ). That means in June 2011, even June 2012, there aren't 4 plane of Su30 in Thang Long.
It could happen if China J10A was invited to 371 division in Southern of Vietnam for exercise in 2011. Or maybe exercise between J10A vs Su30 within China territory.

And an air exercise between Vietnam and China is unlikely. If any please provide the details

To me, there's little chance for J10 vs Su-30MK2V engaged in the same exercise in 2010-2011 ( maybe between PLAAF ). And the real life never proved the point of antonius, while Vietnam continue to order more and more Su-30. They didn't do so if they found Su-30 can't even beat J10A

What's conversation? Do you mean create a thread here, and everything on it come true?

Below rumor ( from antonius link ) was posted 5 July 2011
Vietnam SU-30 locked by J-10, 10 times
_
Vietnam SU - 30 by J - 10 Lock 10 times
News from: China's large military forum insider "pupu", this person is very well-informed and reliable news, has revealed a large number of messages.
*According to him*: Vietnam June 13 exercises, j-10 in the South Vietnamese Air Force over the lock, "Thang Long" division of a SU-30 *four-plane formation* in Viet Nam can not find the J-10's case, J -10 with the fire control radar to lock them a dozen times, each frame is locked s-30 at least twice. At the same time, also cut more aircraft formation with the ground command center of the radio communications, and forcibly inserted into the communication channel, and more pilots on the good-neighborly friendly relations with the Chinese started a warm and amicable discussion._

See the location of Su-30 : 923 Regiment and 935 Regiment. 
923 Regiment base atleast over 400 kilometers from China - Vietnam border.
_



_


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## antonius123

BoQ77 said:


> Let prove that it happens, I keep my right to doubt on it with my evidence.
> At the time, there're only Su-30MK2V in 370 division, and it's not Thang Long
> 
> In 2011, there're only 12 Su30MK2V for 370 division, in Southern assigned to 935 Regiment
> In June 2012, 371 ( Thang Long ) division receive first 3 of Su30MK2V assign to 923 Regiment ( in Middle land of Vietnam ). That means in June 2011, even June 2012, there aren't 4 plane of Su30 in Thang Long.
> It could happen if China J10A was invited to 371 division in Southern of Vietnam for exercise in 2011. Or maybe exercise between J10A vs Su30 within China territory.
> 
> And an air exercise between Vietnam and China is unlikely. If any please provide the details
> 
> To me, there's little chance for J10 vs Su-30MK2V engaged in the same exercise in 2010-2011 ( maybe between PLAAF ). And the real life never proved the point of antonius, while Vietnam continue to order more and more Su-30. They didn't do so if they found Su-30 can't even beat J10A
> 
> What's conversation? Do you mean create a thread here, and everything on it come true?
> 
> Below rumor ( from antonius link ) was posted 5 July 2011
> Vietnam SU-30 locked by J-10, 10 times
> _
> Vietnam SU - 30 by J - 10 Lock 10 times
> News from: China's large military forum insider "pupu", this person is very well-informed and reliable news, has revealed a large number of messages.
> *According to him*: Vietnam June 13 exercises, j-10 in the South Vietnamese Air Force over the lock, "Thang Long" division of a SU-30 *four-plane formation* in Viet Nam can not find the J-10's case, J -10 with the fire control radar to lock them a dozen times, each frame is locked s-30 at least twice. At the same time, also cut more aircraft formation with the ground command center of the radio communications, and forcibly inserted into the communication channel, and more pilots on the good-neighborly friendly relations with the Chinese started a warm and amicable discussion._
> 
> See the location of Su-30 : 923 Regiment and 935 Regiment.
> 923 Regiment base atleast over 400 kilometers from China - Vietnam border.
> _
> 
> 
> 
> _




That was not exercise between china and vietnam.
It could be vietnam own exercise intruded by China or china plane made thresspass then Vietnam most advanced a/c (SU-30) scramble.

923 regiment is not as far as you thought. Why vietnam will cramble old mig-21 to engage intruder?

In 2011, all Su-27s were transferred to 940 Fighter Training Regiment at Phu Cat, leaving only Su-30MK2Vs on 935 Fighter Regiment’s roster.* From June 2011, 923 Fighter Bomber Regiment at Tho Xuan replaced its obsolete Su-22s with Su-30MK2Vs*, with a dozen delivered. However, in early March 2012, one Su-30MK2V crashed during flight tests.
Vietnam - People's Air Force


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## antonius123

BoQ77 said:


> To me, there's little chance for J10 vs Su-30MK2V engaged in the same exercise in 2010-2011 ( maybe between PLAAF ). And the real life never proved the point of antonius, *while Vietnam continue to order more and more Su-30. They didn't do so if they found Su-30 can't even beat J10A*




You were talking as if Vietnam had many choices and luxuries?

There are many consideration in purchasing a/c fighter. It could be price, transfer technology, better packaged offer, compatibility with existing platform, spare part sharing etc.

Back to mid 2000, nobody expect China military technology will (or have) progress so fast - leap and bounce. Especially our Indian and Vietnam fellows who always look down upon China technology, and deepen by China's sun tzu strategy that hide her power (when she still weak). If you can recollect - China announced J-10A existence around 2008 while it had made first flight around 1998. So in mid 2000 your Air Force might not have identified thread like J-10A, leave alone J-10B/J-11B/J-11D. *That could be one of the reason why Vietnam and Indian AF thought SU30MK will be good to balance China.*

You need to remember that current China is not the same with China 30 years ago.
Now it not difficult to ponder that China electronic warfare technology has surpass Russia.

All Vietnam AF should do if she want to balance China is:

make friend with China, or

approach US, or

buy F-22 in large number


----------



## BoQ77

antonius123 said:


> That was not exercise between china and vietnam.
> It could be vietnam own exercise intruded by China or china plane made thresspass then Vietnam most advanced a/c (SU-30) scramble.
> 
> 923 regiment is not as far as you thought. Why vietnam will cramble old mig-21 to engage intruder?
> 
> In 2011, all Su-27s were transferred to 940 Fighter Training Regiment at Phu Cat, leaving only Su-30MK2Vs on 935 Fighter Regiment’s roster.* From June 2011, 923 Fighter Bomber Regiment at Tho Xuan replaced its obsolete Su-22s with Su-30MK2Vs*, with a dozen delivered.


1. All by guess? How could a J10A interfere an exercise of Vietnam in Southern of Vietnam at the time? in June 2011.
2. Explain me what's the Southern word in the post ?
I could tell you that, during 2011, Chinese media focus much on Vietnam Su-30MK2 ( first 12 for Southern ), Kanwa editor even said that Vietnam Su-30MK2 more modern than China Su-30,
and usual, we see Chinese netizens argued so much and find a way to make themselves feel safe by saying J-10A could beat Su-30Mk2. In the post they say kill ratio Su30 5:0 J10A ( in China exercise ). Same to the way they said that they know well about Kilo class submarines 10 year ago and they could easily handle more improved Kilo class subs that Vietnam just received 2013-2015.
That's Chinese style, I don't argue.



> However, in early March 2012, one Su-30MK2V crashed during flight tests.
> Vietnam - People's Air Force



Let me correct you that "this Su-30MK2" crashed in 2012 in Russia during flight test.
Vietnam media at the time doubt that aircraft belong to a batch for Vietnam, means during 2012 there's some Su-30 undelivered to Vietnam. So your highlight in blue text may not true.
923 Regiment, Thang Long division, received their first Su-30MK2 in 2012.


> Su-30 Caught Fire Before Crash – Investigators
> 17:19 28/02/2012
> MOSCOW, February 28 (RIA Novosti)
> 
> The crew of a Su-30 fighter that crashed earlier on Tuesday in Russia’s Far East reported an engine fire before the crash, a spokesman for the Main Military Investigative Directorate said.
> 
> The Su-30MK2 fighter jet crashed 130 km northeast of Komsomolsk-na-Amure during a post-construction test flight. Both pilots ejected safely, although one of them was hurt on landing.
> 
> “While executing acceleration to a maximum speed, the first pilot reported a fire in the right engine,” the spokesman said. “The flight controller immediately ordered the crew to eject.”
> 
> “The investigators are taking all necessary steps to establish the cause of the crash,” the official said.
> 
> The aircraft belonged to the Komsomolsk-na-Amure factory where Su-30s are manufactured.
> 
> The Russian military earlier said that the plane had been built for export.
> 
> Su-family fighters constitute the bulk of Russia's arms exports.
> 
> Variants of Su-30 Flanker fighters are in service with air forces in several foreign countries, including India, Indonesia, China, Algeria, Vietnam and Venezuela.



The last Su-30 for 2nd batch of 12 for 923 received at the beginning of 2013.










The third batch of 12 signed in 2013, and begin to deliver at the end of 2014

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## antonius123

BoQ77 said:


> 1. All by guess? How could a J10A could interfere an exercise of Vietnam in Southern of Vietnam at the time? in June 2011.
> 2. Explain me what's the Southern word in the post ?
> I could tell you that, during 2011, Chinese media focus much on Vietnam Su-30MK2 ( first 12 for Southern ), Kanwa editor even said that Vietnam Su-30MK2 more modern than China Su-30,
> and usual, we see Chinese netizens argued so much and find a way to make themselves feel safe by saying J-10A could beat Su-30Mk2. In the post they say kill ratio Su30 5:0 J10A ( in China exercise ). Same to the way they said that they know well about Kilo class submarines 10 year ago and they could easily handle more improved Kilo class subs that Vietnam just received 2013-2015.
> That's Chinese style, I don't argue.
> 
> 
> 
> Let me correct you that "this Su-30MK2" crashed in 2012 in Russia during flight test.
> Vietnam media at the time doubt that aircraft belong to a batch for Vietnam, means during 2012 there's some Su-30 undelivered to Vietnam. So your highlight in blue text may not true.
> 923 Regiment, Thang Long division, received their first Su-30MK2 in 2012.
> 
> 
> The last Su-30 for 2nd batch of 12 for 923 received at the beginning of 2013.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The third batch of 12 signed in 2013, and begin to deliver at the end of 2014




Hey, it is you who do guessing here.

Have you read mine and my citation ( Vietnam - People's Air Force )? it is crystal clear that the plane is not from south, su30 at 923th is not in 2012 but in june 2011. I give you evidence not guess like yours. Your explanation about 2012 is merely your own guess, how come guess win over fact? No wonder people call you ignorant.

And what facts that make you think SU-30MK could beat J-10A? even J-10B/J-11B other than your guess/belief?


----------



## BoQ77

antonius123 said:


> Hey, it is you who do guessing here.
> 
> Have you read mine? it is crystal clear that the plane is not from south.



What's the plane? "Chinese plane" or Vietnamese plane"?
Based on your knowledge and imaginary ability, let tell me in what situation a J10A could interfere Vietnam Su-30MK2 exercise in June 2011?


----------



## antonius123

BoQ77 said:


> What's the plane? "Chinese plane" or Vietnamese plane"?
> Based on your knowledge and imaginary ability, let tell me in what situation a J10A could interfere Vietnam Su-30MK2 exercise in June 2011?




Haiyaaaah.. we are talking abt su-30MK2 that you claim only based in south vietnam and leave the old planes in north to face china (  )

I dont know in what situation. At least there is evidence/indication that Su-30MK was locked by J-10A while there is no indication for the other way round.

Also I dont see any ground that indicate su30MK could beat J-10A.
But there is solid ground to say that J-11B can beat su30MK in bvr engagement due to AESA and lower RCS as mentioned before.


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## BoQ77

antonius123 said:


> Haiyaaaah.. we are talking abt su-30MK2 that you claim only based in south vietnam and leave the old planes in north to face china (  )
> 
> I dont know in what situation. At least there is evidence/indication that Su-30MK was locked by J-10A while there is no indication for the other way round.
> 
> Also I dont see any ground that indicate su30MK could beat J-10A.
> But there is solid ground to say that J-11B can beat su30MK in bvr engagement due to AESA and lower RCS as mentioned before.



Okay you said there is evidence that Su-30MK2 of Vietnam locked by J-10A in June 2011. So what's that evidence?
If J10A can't reach the airspace of Vietnam Su-30MK2. I doubt about that evidence.

You start to talk baseless as in Izumo class discussion


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## antonius123

BoQ77 said:


> Okay you said there is evidence that Su-30MK2 of Vietnam locked by J-10A in June 2011. So what's that evidence?
> If J10A can't reach the airspace of Vietnam Su-30MK2. I doubt about that evidence.
> 
> You start to talk baseless as in Izumo class discussion



Was given to you before.

Can you already accept that 30MK is no match for J-11B now?


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## BoQ77

antonius123 said:


> Was given to you before.
> 
> Can you already accept that 30MK is no match for J-11B now?



Only in Chinese netizen mind.

FYI, the rumor of J10A appeared right in the post in China defence forum about Vietnam received some from a batch of 20 Su-30MK2. The title itself is incorrect. The max is 12 each order
And the rumor is more than joke.


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## antonius123

BoQ77 said:


> Only in Chinese netizen mind.
> 
> FYI, the rumor of J10A appeared right in the post in China defence forum about Vietnam received some from a batch of 20 Su-30MK2. The title itself is incorrect. The max is 12 each order
> And the rumor is more than joke.




You havent answered my question:

Any facts that make you think SU-30MK could beat J-10A? even J-10B/J-11B other than your guess/belief?


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## BoQ77

antonius123 said:


> You havent answered my question:
> 
> Any facts that make you think SU-30MK could beat J-10A? even J-10B/J-11B other than your guess/belief?



I don't make any comment on Su30MK vs J10A so far. 
You made


----------



## antonius123

BoQ77 said:


> I don't make any comment on Su30MK vs J10A so far.
> You made



You dont care with your own reputation?

You start to dwindle  

Let me remind your own statement:



BoQ77 said:


> I wonder why China order Su30MK2 at high price, while they tried their best to export J10A at very cheap price?
> 
> *My order: Su30MKI > Su30MK2 > Su30MKK > Su27 > J-11A/B > J10B > J10A*


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## BoQ77

antonius123 said:


> You dont care with your own reputation?
> 
> You start to dwindle
> 
> Let me remind your own statement:



Yeah that's my opinion.
That order just show the fact about what is better in my opinion,

Which one could defeat others, it depends many aspects.
I just dont fake the news.


----------



## antonius123

BoQ77 said:


> Yeah that's my opinion.
> That order just show the fact about what is better in my opinion,
> 
> Which one could defeat others, it depends many aspects.
> I just dont fake the news.



So you mean your opinion = fact? no wonder you mixed up between belief, nationalistic opinion as fact


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## DJ Crudept

MKI will eat J-11b Alive ! but J-16 is a different beast


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## antonius123

DJ Crudept said:


> MKI will eat J-11b Alive ! but J-16 is a different beast



Any good reason for that?


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## BoQ77

DJ Crudept said:


> MKI will eat J-11b Alive ! but J-16 is a different beast


did you see the J-16 flight ?
agree ,,, MKI much better than J11B but we all seen that pilots skill and ground personnel are two other important matters.

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## antonius123

BoQ77 said:


> did you see the J-16 flight ?
> agree ,,, MKI much better than J11B but we all seen that pilots skill and ground personnel are two other important matters.



See? jingoistic.

None ground, reason, fact you can provided for jingoistic claim.


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## BoQ77

In Aviadarts 2015, China chosen to use imported Sukhoi-30MKK ( not any domestic built, Jxx ) for competition


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## antonius123

BoQ77 said:


> In Aviadarts 2015, China chosen to use imported Sukhoi-30MKK ( not any domestic built, Jxx ) for competition




What do you mean? why if china chose 30MKK means 30MKK is her best? any evidence about that report?

Let me understand your logic


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## BoQ77

antonius123 said:


> What do you mean? why if china chose 30MKK means 30MKK is her best? any evidence about that report?
> 
> Let me understand your logic



I means China found imported Su-30MKK as most suitable for the difficult competitions with others.
Other vehicles of China for competition all are domestic built ones.

China is proud of domestic built Jxx, this is a chance for them to market them, why they didn't choose domestic built aircrafts for the competition but imported one? as domestic tanks, armored vehicles?


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## antonius123

BoQ77 said:


> I means China found imported Su-30MKK as most suitable for the difficult competitions with others.
> Other vehicles of China for competition all are domestic built ones.
> 
> China is proud of domestic built Jxx, this is a chance for them to market them, why they didn't choose domestic built aircrafts for the competition but imported one? as domestic tanks, armored vehicles?




Why are you making such a stupid speculation?

That is competition about *flying abilities of the pilot and air to surface skill abilities*. Why should china bring less suitable a/c for that purpose?

Have you learned from what I've explained to you several times about Su-30MKK role and what J-11B role?

Such a retarded.


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## Irfan Baloch

BoQ77 said:


> I wonder why China order Su30MK2 at high price, while they tried their best to export J10A at very cheap price?
> 
> My order: Su30MKI > Su30MK2 > Su30MKK > Su27 > J-11A/B > J10B > J10A


nice order or disorder
where are the European jets?


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## BoQ77

Irfan Baloch said:


> nice order or disorder
> where are the European jets?



Only aircrafts based on Su-27 and J10 as our friend from China want to compare.



antonius123 said:


> Why are you making such a stupid speculation?
> 
> That is competition about *flying abilities of the pilot and air to surface skill abilities*. Why should china bring less suitable a/c for that purpose?
> 
> Have you learned from what I've explained to you several times about Su-30MKK role and what J-11B role?
> 
> Such a retarded.



Do you mean no Chinese made aircrafts suitable for the competition?
FYI, India send their Su-30MKI there.
In Aviadart 2014 PLAAF did not send ground attack aircraft or helicopter teams


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## MAJESTICAL

Dont get me wrong but according to wiki Statistics Russian SU-30MKI gets the lead over Chinese J-11...
Rest is upon the Pilot's Skill to use its fighter against its rival  :russia:


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## antonius123

BoQ77 said:


> Only aircrafts based on Su-27 and J10 as our friend from China want to compare.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you mean no Chinese made aircrafts suitable for the competition?
> FYI, India send their Su-30MKI there.
> In Aviadart 2014 PLAAF did not send ground attack aircraft or helicopter teams




Su-30MKK is the best PLAAF's Striking fighter that china has at the moment, until J-16 enter operation.

J-11B is the best Air Superiority fighter that PLAAF has at the moment, until J-11D or J-20 enter operation.



MAJESTICAL said:


> Dont get me wrong but according to wiki Statistics Russian SU-30MKI gets the lead over Chinese J-11...
> Rest is upon the Pilot's Skill to use its fighter against its rival  :russia:




Of course. J-11 is = SU27 licensed to China.

J-11A is an improvement of J-11/SU27
J-11B is further improvement of J-11A

I believe SU30MKI should lead over SU27; I dont know about MKI vs J-11A. 

But BVR wise, based on the spec J-11B should lead over MKI


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## MAJESTICAL

antonius123 said:


> Of course. J-11 is = SU27 licensed to China.
> 
> J-11A is an improvement of J-11/SU27
> J-11B is further improvement of J-11A
> 
> I believe SU30MKI should lead over SU27; I dont know about MKI vs J-11A.
> 
> But BVR wise, based on the spec J-11B should lead over MKI


Agreed with your point of view.


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## danger007

antonius123 said:


> Su-30MKK is the best PLAAF's Striking fighter that china has at the moment, until J-16 enter operation.
> 
> J-11B is the best Air Superiority fighter that PLAAF has at the moment, until J-11D or J-20 enter operation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course. J-11 is = SU27 licensed to China.
> 
> J-11A is an improvement of J-11/SU27
> J-11B is further improvement of J-11A
> 
> I believe SU30MKI should lead over SU27; I dont know about MKI vs J-11A.
> 
> But BVR wise, based on the spec J-11B should lead over MKI



You are just making assumptions after reading some articles in blog... just because china termed it as D variant of J-11's.. it won't give generation leap over the original flankers family... china might trying to replace some tech with their own... it doesn't mean china has the technical lead over the Russians....


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## antonius123

danger007 said:


> You are just making assumptions after reading some articles in blog... just because china termed it as D variant of J-11's.. it won't give generation leap over the original flankers family...




You better read the conversation from earlier. Or it is your habbit as normal Indian to ignore every thing that is not on your favour?

I have mention hundred times the spec that put J-11B lead over Su-30MKI in BVR (not a generation leap of course, nobody said that).

On the contrary nobody can give any reason for his belief why Su30 MKI should lead over J-11B. You guys only use bias/prejudice/assumption that China will be always backward and unable to improve except copying with failure. That is your simply ground when judging J-11 series will always behind SU27. But so many evidence that has debunk your bias assumption in this world.

You should learn from other culture especially western and see how they can do analyze with minimum prejudice, and even with this much better attitude they still get surprised to see China leap and bounce progress beyond their expectation.




> china might trying to replace some tech with their own... it doesn't mean china has the technical lead over the Russians....



If the replacement is indeed something more advanced that Russian cannot make it yet?


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## antonius123

BoQ77 said:


> Do you mean no Chinese made aircrafts suitable for the competition?
> FYI, India send their Su-30MKI there.
> *In Aviadart 2014 PLAAF did not send ground attack aircraft or helicopter teams*



SU-30MKK is a Strike Fighter you idiot.


BEIJING, July 21 (Xinhua) -- Pilots from China's People's Liberation Army (PLA) Air Force have arrived in Russia for the Aviadarts-2014 air force competition.

The event, slated from July 22 to July 28, will see Chinese pilots fly three Su-30 fighters and compete with their international counterparts *over flying abilities and air-to-surface combat skills* among other areas.
Chinese pilots in Russia for air force competition - Xinhua | English.news.cn


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## danger007

antonius123 said:


> You better read the conversation from earlier. Or it is your habbit as normal Indian to ignore every thing that is not on your favour?
> 
> I have mention hundred times the spec that put J-11B lead over Su-30MKI in BVR (not a generation leap of course, nobody said that).
> 
> On the contrary nobody can give any reason for his belief why Su30 MKI should lead over J-11B. You guys only use bias/prejudice/assumption that China will be always backward and unable to improve except copying with failure. That is your simply ground when judging J-11 series will always behind SU27. But so many evidence that has debunk your bias assumption in this world.
> 
> You should learn from other culture especially western and see how they can do analyze with minimum prejudice, and even with this much better attitude they still get surprised to see China leap and bounce progress beyond their expectation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If the replacement is indeed something more advanced that Russian cannot make it yet?




I came across the thread not just single post of yours.. chinese weapon package literally unknown to the rest of world, including chinese civilians.. never tested nor engaged with any other... so i have my reservation regarding chinese members claims...


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## BoQ77

danger007 said:


> I came across the thread not just single post of yours.. chinese weapon package literally unknown to the rest of world, including chinese civilians.. never tested nor engaged with any other... so i have my reservation regarding chinese members claims...



Chinese members always call others as stupid, idiot ... that confused us like they are first class world citizens.
But no.
Chinese continue to clone, not start by Sukhoi-27 but much earlier, Mig-xx
... and the cloning won't stop by now, even they always call their clone as much better than original version. See S-300 and HQ-9, then Chinese feel happy to get the S-400 deal.

I won't call that as no brain, but less creativity.

Without Su-27 they still fly J6, J7, J8 ... which are clone model of Mig-xx too
IL-76 airframe are limited by a few, without IL-76 airframe and Russian engines, China has no advance AEW by now.

I hope China would continue to clone others by year 2100. Good for them.



antonius123 said:


> SU-30MKK is a Strike Fighter you idiot.
> 
> The event, slated from July 22 to July 28, will see Chinese pilots fly three Su-30 fighters and compete with their international counterparts *over flying abilities and air-to-surface combat skills* among other areas.
> Chinese pilots in Russia for air force competition - Xinhua | English.news.cn



We all know that Russian limited several features when they sell Su27, Su30 to China.


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## antonius123

BoQ77 said:


> Chinese members always call others as stupid, idiot ... that confused us like they are first class world citizens.
> But no.
> Chinese continue to clone, not start by Sukhoi-27 but much earlier, Mig-xx
> ... and the cloning won't stop by now, even they always call their clone as much better than original version. See S-300 and HQ-9, then Chinese feel happy to get the S-400 deal.
> 
> I won't call that as no brain, but less creativity.
> 
> Without Su-27 they still fly J6, J7, J8 ... which are clone model of Mig-xx too
> IL-76 airframe are limited by a few, without IL-76 airframe and Russian engines, China has no advance AEW by now.
> 
> I hope China would continue to clone others by year 2100. Good for them.
> 
> 
> 
> We all know that Russian limited several features when they sell Su27, Su30 to China.




What are you talking about? China has stop clone russian fighter since J-11 you idiot. No more Russian fighter worth clone.

Without SU27 license, china at least have made J-10.
And can Vietnam or India produce? 

Why need clone if their fighter already ahead. Do you think pakfa worth clone while they can develop more sophisticated J-20?


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## BoQ77

antonius123 said:


> What are you talking about? China has stop clone russian fighter since J-11 you idiot. No more Russian fighter worth clone.
> 
> Without SU27 license, china at least have made J-10.
> And can Vietnam or India produce?
> 
> Why need clone if their fighter already ahead. Do you think pakfa worth clone while they can develop more sophisticated J-20?



You again call other as idiot @Horus is this guy suitable for discussion or not?

Let anyone see your latest J16 or J11D and what they will find is a Sukhoi based airframe.
Plus China continue to order Russian engines and AA, anti-radar missiles for those.

Then let see Su35 would be the new in the buying list

Russia has no 5th gen stealth, so China changed to clone American F-22.
Show anyone your J20 or J31, what they will find a clone of F-22 or F35
J-10 ? Do you mean Israeli Lavi ?


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## antonius123

BoQ77 said:


> You again call other as idiot @Horus is this guy suitable for discussion or not?




Could you a little bit smarter in discussion? avoid repeating statement that other has debunk but you can't defend please! it is so desperately exasperating.

What is the right name for those who has been explained many times but still repeat the same mistake without ability to explain?

Also stop bragging any ridiculous claim especially when you can't prove anything.

Also try to being consistent with your statement, dont say A then say B denying saying A then back again say A .. this is destroying your own reputation!

Otherwise, it is you who is not suitable for discussion.



> Let anyone see your latest J16 or J11D and what they will find is a Sukhoi based airframe.
> Plus China continue to order Russian engines and AA, anti-radar missiles for those.
> 
> Then let see Su35 would be the new in the buying list



So in your mind: buying engine means copying? continuing buying AA means copying?

OK maybe you are right in this one thing, that China still copy SU30MK and SU34, but that is not simply copy, those are improving.



> Russia has no 5th gen stealth, so China changed to clone American F-22.
> Show anyone your J20 or J31, what they will find a clone of F-22 or F35
> J-10 ? Do you mean Israeli Lavi ?



 

What you mean by copying F-22? J-20? or j-31?
Since when China bought F-22 and make the clone and end up with J-20 or J-31?

Does J-10 seem the same like LAVI in your eyes? which ones are more similar in your eyes: J-10 with LAVI, or Airbus A310 with Boeing 737?

What kind of idiocy is this?


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## BoQ77

antonius123 said:


> So in your mind: buying engine means copying? continuing buying AA means copying?
> 
> OK maybe you are right in this one thing, that China still copy SU30MK and SU34, but that is not simply copy, those are improving.



You're wrong.
Buying engine means still unable to copy. Same to missiles.

You buy Ford engine for a Ford, .. when you buy AL31F we know it's for Sukhoi-27 and its variants.


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## antonius123

BoQ77 said:


> You're wrong.
> Buying engine means still unable to copy. Same to missiles



Either idiocy or ignorance or shortsighted mind.

What is to be copied from an engine? model? design?


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## BoQ77

antonius123 said:


> Either idiocy or ignorance or shortsighted mind.
> 
> What is to be copied from an engine? model? design?



You could apply all of above adjective to yourself if you think there's nothing to copy from an imported engine


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## HariPrasad

BoQ77 said:


> 1. All by guess? How could a J10A interfere an exercise of Vietnam in Southern of Vietnam at the time? in June 2011.
> 2. Explain me what's the Southern word in the post ?
> I could tell you that, during 2011, Chinese media focus much on Vietnam Su-30MK2 ( first 12 for Southern ), Kanwa editor even said that Vietnam Su-30MK2 more modern than China Su-30,
> and usual, we see Chinese netizens argued so much and find a way to make themselves feel safe by saying J-10A could beat Su-30Mk2. In the post they say kill ratio Su30 5:0 J10A ( in China exercise ). Same to the way they said that they know well about Kilo class submarines 10 year ago and they could easily handle more improved Kilo class subs that Vietnam just received 2013-2015.
> That's Chinese style, I don't argue.



And after declaring their ABM, Planes and Subs superior to That of Rusia, They will go to russia to beg Russian ABM, Planes and Subs. 
HQ series is better than S 300 and S 400 still they buy S400 from Russai.
Their Planes anr superior to That of Russia still they are negotiating for Su 35.
Their subs are better than russia still they are negotiating palnes wit russia. And I agree with you. 

That's Chinese style, I don't argue.

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## antonius123

BoQ77 said:


> You could apply all of above adjective to yourself if you think there's nothing to copy from an imported engine




What is the definition of "copy" in your mind?

It is obvious that you dont understand the meaning of copy; especially as you claim that J-20 is a copy of F-22, or J-10 is a copy of LAVI.

You run away from my other questions unanswered by you.



HariPrasad said:


> And after declaring their ABM, Planes and Subs superior to That of Rusia, They will go to russia to beg Russian ABM, Planes and Subs.
> HQ series is better than S 300 and S 400 still they buy S400 from Russai.
> Their Planes anr superior to That of Russia still they are negotiating for Su 35.
> Their subs are better than russia still they are negotiating palnes wit russia. And I agree with you.
> 
> That's Chinese style, I don't argue.



Since when China request Russia to sell Su35? 
Most probably it is Russia that force china to buy SU35 as russia requirement for chinese buying S117.


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## HariPrasad

antonius123 said:


> Since when China request Russia to sell Su35?
> Most probably it is Russia that force china to buy SU35 as russia requirement for chinese buying S117.



Russia to Ink Deal to Supply China with 24 Su-35 Fighter Jets | Defense Tech
Why China’s Air Force Needs Russia’s SU-35 | The Diplomat
Russia's Su-35 Fighter: A Trump Card Up Beijing's Sleeve in South China Sea / Sputnik International


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## BoQ77

Irfan Baloch said:


> nice order or disorder
> where are the European jets?



They said Typhoon the next generation compare to Su-30MKI

*British Typhoons whacked India's Sukhois in joint exercises'*
Submitted by admin4 on 24 July 2011 - 2:32pm
By N.C. Bipindra, IANS,

RAF Fairford (Britain) : Britain's frontline fighter jet Eurofighter Typhoon, shortlisted for India's $10.4-billion combat jets tender, whacked the Indian Air Force (IAF) warhorse Sukhoi in one-on-one dog fights during bilateral air war games, if Britain's air chief is to be believed.

"Well, they lost," was Stephen Dalton's response when IANS asked how the Russia-developed India-manufactured Su-30MKI air superiority jets performed against the Royal Air Force's (RAF) Typhoons when they matched their wits during the joint exercises in recent years.

However, he was quick to add that the two aircraft are different in technologies, and that Typhoons are next generation, and hence there is no comparison.

Dalton was interacting with IANS at the recently held Royal International Air Tattoo military air show at the RAF base here.

The two aircraft were pitted against each other during 'Indradhanush' exercises in 2007 at Waddington in Britain and in 2010 at Kalaikunda in India.

Interestingly, the IAF had claimed in 2007 that Sukhoi's performance against Typhoon had convinced the RAF of its superiority. "The RAF pilots were candid in their admission of the Su-30 MKI's observed superior manoeuvring in the air, just as they had studied, prepared and anticipated," an Indian defence ministry release had said during the July 2007 Indradhanush.

It was, however, fair to Typhoon, saying the IAF pilots were impressed with its agility in the air.

Dalton was also all praise for the IAF for training its pilots to put any aircraft they fly to best use.

"The issue is you are comparing technology and people. So, more often than not, technology can give you a great edge, a great lead. But actually it is always the people (behind the machines) who make the difference at the end of the day," he said.

"It is not just how the aircraft did in the air. It is also about how the individual thinks, how they work, and their willingness to develop and to experiment.

"I have always found the IAF to be extremely good. Yes, technology is a significant element, but also the individual is really important in this," he added.

Dalton also indicated that the IAF inventory of Sukhois, MiGs and Mirages are no match to the Typhoons.

"Nothing that India has got is anything anywhere near this (the Typhoon). I would say that absolutely. This airplane is phenomenally different in both performance and technology in anything they (IAF) got right now," he said.

But, he added, it was not criticism, as Typhoon is the product of next generation technology.

"I would say the IAF crew that I have worked with and seen are every bit as clever as any other air crew in the world, and in many cases better. It is all about the man as the machine that they operate," he added.

Dalton said the cooperation between the RAF and the IAF will continue, as Britain valued this relationship. "IAF has a lot of experience and I would like to suck that out and use it, quite frankly," he added.

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## BoQ77

HariPrasad said:


> Russia to Ink Deal to Supply China with 24 Su-35 Fighter Jets | Defense Tech
> Why China’s Air Force Needs Russia’s SU-35 | The Diplomat
> Russia's Su-35 Fighter: A Trump Card Up Beijing's Sleeve in South China Sea / Sputnik International



From the article ( not from me )
.....
_Beijing needs an aircraft capable of rivaling Japan's F-35s and India's Su-30MKI and T-50 planes but is unsure that J-11D jets will be a viable competitor. _

Read more: All You Need is Su-35: China Should Buy Russian Fighter Jets – Media / Sputnik International


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## antonius123

HariPrasad said:


> Russia to Ink Deal to Supply China with 24 Su-35 Fighter Jets | Defense Tech
> Why China’s Air Force Needs Russia’s SU-35 | The Diplomat
> Russia's Su-35 Fighter: A Trump Card Up Beijing's Sleeve in South China Sea / Sputnik International




LOL. That is not China request Rusia, that is Russia push China to buy SU35 as condition to buy S117.


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## BoQ77

antonius123 said:


> LOL. That is not China request Rusia, that is Russia push China to buy SU35 as condition to buy S117.



How about WS-xx engines of China?
As I know, Sukhoi 27-based engines can't reach supercruise ability, except what Russia claimed with AL-41F1S.

1. China plan to make J-20 operational in 2018. What engine they would mount onto it to have some advance features like supercruise? How's about its progress?
Or J-20 will fly with engines similar to AL-31 ? which is engine for gen 4 aircraft?

2. Without purchase of AL41F1S or Su-35, what is the alternative engine for J20 deadline?
As we all know AL-41F1S for Su-35, it takes much time to "learn" and "reproduce" the design of AL41F1S, even China would order to buy Su-35 before 2016 , not sure they can meet the targeted time for J-20. Because the delivery of Su-35 is about 2018-2020.

3. Russia, China media reported that Vietnam would get Su-35 at the same time as China, Venezuela during 2018-2020. What is the more advance aircraft China has at the time?
J-20? we doubt about that.

Be noted that Japan would get first F-35A this year. What's the same generation China prepare to deal with Japan F-35A next few years?
J-11D ? .... LOL

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## antonius123

BoQ77 said:


> From the article ( not from me )
> .....
> _Beijing needs an aircraft capable of rivaling Japan's F-35s and India's Su-30MKI and T-50 planes but is unsure that J-11D jets will be a viable competitor. _
> 
> Read more: All You Need is Su-35: China Should Buy Russian Fighter Jets – Media / Sputnik International





BoQ77 said:


> How about WS-xx engines of China?
> As I know, Sukhoi 27-based engines can't reach supercruise ability, except what Russia claimed with AL-41F1S.
> 
> 1. China plan to make J-20 operational in 2018. What engine they would mount onto it to have some advance features like supercruise? How's about its progress?
> Or J-20 will fly with engines similar to AL-31 ? which is engine for gen 4 aircraft?
> 
> 2. Without purchase of AL41F1S or Su-35, what is the alternative engine for J20 deadline?
> As we all know AL-41F1S for Su-35, it takes much time to "learn" and "reproduce" the design of AL41F1S, even China would order to buy Su-35 before 2016 , not sure they can meet the targeted time for J-20. Because the delivery of Su-35 is about 2018-2020.
> 
> 3. Russia, China media reported that Vietnam would get Su-35 at the same time as China, Venezuela during 2018-2020. What is the more advance aircraft China has at the time?
> J-20? we doubt about that.



J-20 planned to use WS-15.
In case WS-15 is not matured in 2018, China plan to use S-117 from Russia.

Thats the reason why China is still open with option to buy S-117, and Rusia force China to buy SU35 as condition to buy S-117.



> Be noted that Japan would get first F-35A this year. What's the same generation China prepare to deal with Japan F-35A next few years?
> J-11D ? .... LOL



LOL?

You havent prove the advantage MKI over J-11A
I have shown you why J-11B will lead MKI.

Now you LOL on J-11D? why? 

J-11D use a second generation AESA, a more advanced compared to AESA on J-11B.
SU-35 is still using PESA.

Definitely J-11D will blow SU-35B in BVR engagement (1 to 1 engagement with the same pilot skill).



HariPrasad said:


> Russia to Ink Deal to Supply China with 24 Su-35 Fighter Jets | Defense Tech
> Why China’s Air Force Needs Russia’s SU-35 | The Diplomat
> Russia's Su-35 Fighter: A Trump Card Up Beijing's Sleeve in South China Sea / Sputnik International




As I said It is because the Engine.

From your own source:

Despite the evident maturity of the J-11D program, the Chinese military nevertheless appears to also be going ahead with plans to purchase Russian Su-35 Flankers. The Su-35 is far more maneuverable than the J-11 – which gives the Russian jet an advantage in short-range dogfights – can fly longer distances, and can take off and land with a larger payload. It is also equipped with new avionics and new cockpit displays. *However, its radar is a less advanced passive electronically scanned array (PESA) than the AESA system on the J-11D*. Moreover, the aircraft and its systems will be manufactured abroad. The Chinese government views its indigenous defense industry as a strategic asset; purchasing more planes from Russia will not help advance Beijing’s goal of developing a mature, self-reliant aerospace industry. Given the apparent redundancy of moving forward with two very similar aircraft programs, some analysts speculate that the* PLAAF’s primary motivation for buying the Su-35 may not be for its value as a weapons system but rather because it is equipped with advanced AL-117S turbofans.*
Why China’s Air Force Needs Russia’s SU-35 | The Diplomat


The more maneuverable of SU35 is because of the greater Engine thrust of S-117 while J-11 is still using AL-31 or WS-10A. The maneuverability will talk much in dogfight. But for BVR it is Radar, RCS, and BVRAAM that talk, where J-11D is at advantage.


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## BoQ77

antonius123 said:


> J-20 planned to use WS-15.
> In case WS-15 is not matured in 2018, China plan to use S-117 from Russia.
> 
> Thats the reason why China is still open with option to buy S-117, and Rusia force China to buy SU35 as condition to buy S-117.
> 
> The more maneuverable of SU35 is because of the greater Engine thrust of S-117 while J-11 is still using AL-31 or WS-10A. The maneuverability will talk much in dogfight.



1. Is it simple as buy S117 in 2018 and mount it into J-20?
No. For 24 Su-35, you must order now and get delivery in 2018-2020, 24 Su-35 and maybe 24 engines as sparepart.
So there's nothing for confront Japan F-35A next 3-5 years.

2. Another promising item is supercruise ability which existed in Western aircraft : F-22, F-35, Typhoon ( supercruise at Mach 1.5 ), Rafale, Gripen even F-16 ... but never existed in Russian aircraft.

Without supercruise, your air fleet is always left behind the competitor in any clash in blue ocean.

Let share us how far the best China aircraft could fly at Mach > 1 ? with full arm?

3. If China confirm to buy Su-35, there's no major Su-27-based aircraft they didn't buy from Russia. It's would be very disappointed.

antonius: air combat isn't game online to compare specifications on papers against each other.
How many J11D you have? After J11A/B production, we found no other model produced in large quantity.
I'm interested in how J11-D take advantage against Su-35? and against F-35A ?

4. great maneuver aircraft could even avoid short range missiles, better chance for them against long range AA missiles. An aircraft like Su-35 or even F-16 isn't easy target even you claim you could "lock on" it. They're not slow as surface targets to solely defend by their anti air weapon


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## desimorty

Forget stealth aircraft. They won't work unless you figure out how to use your own radar with out being detected. Thats above top secret tech right there.


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## antonius123

BoQ77 said:


> 1. Is it simple as buy S117 in 2018 and mount it into J-20?
> No. For 24 Su-35, you must order now and get delivery in 2018-2020, 24 Su-35 and maybe 24 engines as sparepart.
> So there's nothing for confront Japan F-35A next 3-5 years.



Su-35 has no chance againts F-35 in BVR. Su-35 can beat F-35 only in WVR or dogfight.

China should put money on J-11D to face F-35 instead SU-35.

As I said china is forced to buy SU35 as requirement to buy S-117.




> 2. Another promising item is supercruise ability which existed in Western aircraft : F-22, F-35, Typhoon ( supercruise at Mach 1.5 ), Rafale, Gripen even F-16 ... but never existed in Russian aircraft.
> 
> Without supercruise, your air fleet is always left behind the competitor in any clash in blue ocean.
> 
> Let share us how far the best China aircraft could fly at Mach > 1 ? with full arm?



WS-15 will have.
They have good progress.

Dont ask again then why buy S-117; I ve explained you that China will need huge amount of 5 gen engine for hundreds of J-11B, J-11D, J20 that may not be sufficient to be fullfilled by WS-10G or WS-15 alone. Also China need to consider way out in case WS15 progress is not as per expected.




> 3. If China confirm to buy Su-35, there's no major Su-27-based aircraft they didn't buy from Russia. It's would be very disappointed.



When will you be smart?

There is nothing to dissappoint. China is satisfied with J-11B, J-11D, and J16.
IF china doesnt need to buy S-117, there is no story of buying SU-35



> antonius: air combat isn't game online to compare specifications on papers against each other.
> How many J11D you have? After J11A/B production, we found no other model produced in large quantity.
> I'm interested in how J11-D take advantage against Su-35? and against F-35A ?



You should tell this to yourself.
You have nothing even on paper to claim MKI better than J-11B.

China already can produce WS-10A, hence there is no problem to produce J-11D.
The lead time to acquire J-11D will be about the same with the lead time to acquire Su-35.

I've told you many times J-11D have second generation AESA and better avionics compared to Su35.
J-11D may not be able to engage F-35 in BVR, but able in WVR.



> 4. great maneuver aircraft could even avoid short range missiles, better chance for them against long range AA missiles. An aircraft like Su-35 or even F-16 isn't easy target even you claim you could "lock on" it. They're not slow as surface targets to solely defend by their anti air weapon




LOL. You are ignorant.

Missile is very dangerous for even the most agile a/c. Have you ever heard first shoot first kill?

A/c or pilot can not withstand 15G while pilotless and smaller missile can.

Dogfight and WVR is less predictable and depend lots on pilot skill.
BVR will more depend on technology.

Thats why in modern combat AForce will emphasize on BVR engagement to avoid pilot in danger situation.


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## BoQ77

How many J11D China have now?

When Chinese pilots face the latest enemy aircraft ?

FYI, Vietnamese pilots on Mig-17 and Mig-21 shot down many F4 Phantom designed with BVR guided missiles. This F4 type is very special, because designers removed the gun, it totally based on missiles.

Believe me, it's still difficult to use mid range missiles to shot down a flexible aircraft.


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## HariPrasad

BoQ77 said:


> _Beijing needs an aircraft capable of rivaling Japan's F-35s and India's Su-30MKI and T-50 planes but is unsure that J-11D jets will be a viable competitor. _



None of the chinese (Designed and build by china) plane can counter even F16.



antonius123 said:


> LOL. That is not China request Rusia, that is Russia push China to buy SU35 as condition to buy S117.



IS S400 also purchased to please Russia? If you do not want to buy any thing than how can anybody compale you?

Reactions: Like Like:
2


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## Pindi Boy

HariPrasad said:


> Same way J31 is superior to F35 and J20 is superior to F22. Now happy?


and tejas is superior to both j20 & j31

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## GURU DUTT

usama fiaz said:


> and tejas is superior to both j20 & j31


congrats you yet again bumped openned a five year old thread 

but make as much fun of Tejas as you like but you also know india is not going to scrap Tejas and has already started a programme to give AESA based Radar and EW suite & jammers to it along with all those cutting edge israeli WVRs & BVRs and in coming future you have nothing to put against it ...... i guess PAF also knows that


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## Pindi Boy

GURU DUTT said:


> congrats you yet again bumped openned a five year old thread
> 
> but make as much fun of Tejas as you like but you also know india is not going to scrap Tejas and has already started a programme to give AESA based Radar and EW suite & jammers to it along with all those cutting edge israeli WVRs & BVRs and in coming future you have nothing to put against it ...... i guess PAF also knows that


this thread is not 5 years old the date of last post is jul 2015


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## GURU DUTT

usama fiaz said:


> this thread is not 5 years old the date of last post is jul 2015


ok ji great but then do you realli think PAF can offord to have even one squad of chinese flanker copies


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## BATTLE FIELD

i have a Q.
su-30 and f-15 have air brakes.i love it.
how many non-Russian fighters are there with air brakes.


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## alee92nawaz

Jazzbot said:


> and what it has to do with this thread lol..?
> why bringing JF-17 here..?


Leave thunders alone over mirages and f-7s are good enough for intruding sukhois 
A thunder connected with awacs will surely take care of mki entering in lahore sargodha sialkot or multan or even karachi


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## AUSTERLITZ

alee92nawaz said:


> Leave thunders alone over mirages and f-7s are good enough for intruding sukhois
> A thunder connected with awacs will surely take care of mki entering in lahore sargodha sialkot or multan or even karachi



F-7s and mirages?Oh really?
I applaud your genius judgement.
Welcome to the forum.


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## alee92nawaz

W


AUSTERLITZ said:


> F-7s and mirages?Oh really?
> I applaud your genius judgement.
> Welcome to the forum.


Well it was just a joke for Indians but I guess the might have some chances in wvr combat...
Wvr is most likely coz india wants to do some surgical strikes

We


GURU DUTT said:


> congrats you yet again bumped openned a five year old thread
> 
> but make as much fun of Tejas as you like but you also know india is not going to scrap Tejas and has already started a programme to give AESA based Radar and EW suite & jammers to it along with all those cutting edge israeli WVRs & BVRs and in coming future you have nothing to put against it ...... i guess PAF also knows that


Wel tejas has enough stuff to make fun of itself n paf won't feel threatened until it is flying in sky brother..


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## Ram_80

below_freezing said:


> Would the 2 pilot requirement of the Su-30 MKI be a problem in a real war? It effectively takes up 2 planes (pilots) per 1 plane, and we all know 1 thing: planes can be replaced in days, pilots can't.


It's a pilot and an operator. Any one can give me an insight whether the airmen has sufficient training to interchange the roles. We follow the philosophy that two operators participating on a mission is more productive and less distraction. New fighter jets with sensor fusion for more situational awareness would reduce this model. Basically we want to operate a mini awacs but doesn't have advanced avionics like in AEW&C and the air force would be aware of what they achieved with this model.



SR 71 Blackbird said:


> Su 30 MKI will get AESA radar,reduction of RCS by a great deal and highly advanced electronics & also replacement of the Sura K HMS with Topsight E HMS.


Reduction of RCS requires atleast requires structural modifications and with out which using RCS reduction coatings would not be effective and waste of money and maintenance hours. Avionics and engine Russians can help. Also they could help with minor structural modifications in future. Computers and sensor fusion we need to work with SAAB to enhance the information fusion and presentation to the pilot and operator. It's not easy for an industrial complex like us to acquire that knowledge quickly and make it reliable. Situational awareness would be a major decisive factor to escape from an enemy or plan a kill. DRDO needs to concentrate more on that now. I am sure they know that but pouring funds and focusing energy would be a huge advantage.



BoQ77 said:


> They said Typhoon the next generation compare to Su-30MKI
> 
> *British Typhoons whacked India's Sukhois in joint exercises'*
> Submitted by admin4 on 24 July 2011 - 2:32pm
> By N.C. Bipindra, IANS,
> 
> RAF Fairford (Britain) : Britain's frontline fighter jet Eurofighter Typhoon, shortlisted for India's $10.4-billion combat jets tender, whacked the Indian Air Force (IAF) warhorse Sukhoi in one-on-one dog fights during bilateral air war games, if Britain's air chief is to be believed.
> 
> "Well, they lost," was Stephen Dalton's response when IANS asked how the Russia-developed India-manufactured Su-30MKI air superiority jets performed against the Royal Air Force's (RAF) Typhoons when they matched their wits during the joint exercises in recent years.
> 
> However, he was quick to add that the two aircraft are different in technologies, and that Typhoons are next generation, and hence there is no comparison.
> 
> Dalton was interacting with IANS at the recently held Royal International Air Tattoo military air show at the RAF base here.
> 
> The two aircraft were pitted against each other during 'Indradhanush' exercises in 2007 at Waddington in Britain and in 2010 at Kalaikunda in India.
> 
> Interestingly, the IAF had claimed in 2007 that Sukhoi's performance against Typhoon had convinced the RAF of its superiority. "The RAF pilots were candid in their admission of the Su-30 MKI's observed superior manoeuvring in the air, just as they had studied, prepared and anticipated," an Indian defence ministry release had said during the July 2007 Indradhanush.
> 
> It was, however, fair to Typhoon, saying the IAF pilots were impressed with its agility in the air.
> 
> Dalton was also all praise for the IAF for training its pilots to put any aircraft they fly to best use.
> 
> "The issue is you are comparing technology and people. So, more often than not, technology can give you a great edge, a great lead. But actually it is always the people (behind the machines) who make the difference at the end of the day," he said.
> 
> "It is not just how the aircraft did in the air. It is also about how the individual thinks, how they work, and their willingness to develop and to experiment.
> 
> "I have always found the IAF to be extremely good. Yes, technology is a significant element, but also the individual is really important in this," he added.
> 
> Dalton also indicated that the IAF inventory of Sukhois, MiGs and Mirages are no match to the Typhoons.
> 
> "Nothing that India has got is anything anywhere near this (the Typhoon). I would say that absolutely. This airplane is phenomenally different in both performance and technology in anything they (IAF) got right now," he said.
> 
> But, he added, it was not criticism, as Typhoon is the product of next generation technology.
> 
> "I would say the IAF crew that I have worked with and seen are every bit as clever as any other air crew in the world, and in many cases better. It is all about the man as the machine that they operate," he added.
> 
> Dalton said the cooperation between the RAF and the IAF will continue, as Britain valued this relationship. "IAF has a lot of experience and I would like to suck that out and use it, quite frankly," he added.


Indian fanboys exaggerates SU 30 MKI capability compared to British Typhoon. But in general Indian airforce may have displayed better fighting capability because of two crew man with separate roles. Typhoon has better engines, avionics, RCS reduction in design and basic sensor fusion and this may have given them and edge. Once SU 30 MKI gets better avionics and engines they might perform better. It's my analysis but I am not sure, what do you think?


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## Ram_80

BoQ77 said:


> You again call other as idiot @Horus is this guy suitable for discussion or not?
> 
> Let anyone see your latest J16 or J11D and what they will find is a Sukhoi based airframe.
> Plus China continue to order Russian engines and AA, anti-radar missiles for those.
> 
> Then let see Su35 would be the new in the buying list
> 
> Russia has no 5th gen stealth, so China changed to clone American F-22.
> Show anyone your J20 or J31, what they will find a clone of F-22 or F35
> J-10 ? Do you mean Israeli Lavi ?


The airframe is not an exact replica but following American aircraft. Any new stealth aircraft follows some improved designs taken from American aircraft as they tested and developed advanced designs. Every country will follows those design principles and nobody can deny basic laws of physics. China is following the American model J20 in place of F22 and J30 for F 35. What they can't perfect or produce is the engine technology which is advanced and they have long way to catch up with American and the entire West. Sensor fusion Americans lead and quality of sensors American and Europeans lead. China is producing proven and worked out designs from Russians and fitted them with Russian engines or their derivatives still long way to go and it won't happen anywhere near a decade. Radars may be they has access to GaNa modules but does they have sufficient expertise to make them advanced radars. Even this tuning and making software for radars Russians, Europeans and Americans have lots of expertise than Chinese and again it will take more time. On paper local AESA radars makes good on planes but functionality we can't comment.

China needs Russian radars, engines to test their own equipment and for risk free operational defense. Why would China buy S 400 if their new defense systems are comparable. I am not denying China is not capable of but others have accumulated more data and knowledge than budding Chinese defense manufacturers.


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