# Saudi Arabia wants to buy 600-800 Leopard tanks from Germany



## Arabian Legend

Deal for around 300 tanks is about to be signed, newspaper says
ReutersPublished: 13:35 June 17, 2012
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see old link http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-forum/118240-leopard-2a7-saudi-arabia.html


Berlin: Saudi Arabia wants to buy 600 to 800 Leopard battle tanks from Germany, at least twice the number previously expected, a German newspaper reported on Sunday.
A deal for around 300 tanks was about to be signed, Bild am Sonntag newspaper said in a report sent to Reuters ahead of publication.
The newspaper said that while there was opposition to the deal in Germanys Chancellery, Foreign Ministry and Defence Ministry, there was support for it within the Economy Ministry.
The Saudi order could secure the future of German tank-makers Krauss-Maffei Wegman and Rheinmetall, which urgently need new markets because of the restructuring of the German army, said Bild am Sonntag.
A German government spokeswoman declined to comment.
Last year, Germany denied reports that it had agreed to export 270 Leopard tanks to Saudi Arabia. Exports of military equipment cannot be officially acknowledged as they are confidential and disclosure is punishable by a fine or jail. Opposition lawmakers heaped pressure on Chancellor Angela Merkels government after reports it had cut a secret deal to sell the tanks, saying it contravened the countrys export guidelines for military hardware.
Arms exports are a sensitive issue in Germany given its Nazi past as well as the role arms makers like Krupp played in feeding 19th and 20th century wars with exports to both sides of conflicts.
Germany has refrained from exporting heavy weapons to Gulf states in the past, given its close relationship with Israel and more recently because of the so-called Arab Spring.
Citing industry sources, Bild am Sonntag said Saudi Arabia wanted to sign the deal by July 20.
Spanish firm General Dynamic/Santa Barbara would produce the tanks under licence by the German firms, the newspaper said.


gulfnews

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## Mosamania

600 M1A2Ss plus 800 Leopard 2A7+.... I would hate to be facing that army.

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## chauvunist

Good News....make it impregnable brothers...

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## Mosamania

chauvunist said:


> Good News....make it impregnable brothers...



We are going to get this baby with full ToT the plants for it are already built and are awaiting g the go ahead.

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## shining eyes

For whom S. Arabia is buying this many war machines?
I don't think they really should waste a lot of money on these, instead they should invest in *R&D* and other big projects. Invest in making your own fighter jets.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Tanks are obsolete with arrival of smart weapons and bomblets that attach on to signatures of Tanks and military vehicles

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## Skorpian

Mosamania said:


> We are going to get this baby with full ToT the plants for it are already built and are awaiting g the go ahead.


Full ToT? I don't think so.


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## Shahin Vatani

Keep on buying other country's products with your oil money Saudi Arabia. Don't bother trying to innovate anything on your own, or trying to expand your economy outside of the oil market. WAY TO GO!!!

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## p(-)0ENiX

Good work Saudi Arabia! 

Germany in 10-billion tank deal with Saudis



> With up to 800 tanks, the deal would be worth 10 billion, making it one of the biggest-ever for the German defence industry, the Bild am Sonntag newspaper reported.

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## Zulkarneyn

You guys should also consider in the near future to make a deal with our future Altay tanks.

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## BordoEnes

Shahin Vatani said:


> Keep on buying other country's products with your oil money Saudi Arabia. Don't bother trying to innovate anything on your own, or trying to expand your economy outside of the oil market. WAY TO GO!!!



Look who is talking, Your own countrie export is 79% Oil.

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## Kompromat

Hope they come with domestic assembly and with some degree of TOT. Leopards will 'whip' Abrahams or ANY other tank on the planet !

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## Shahin Vatani

BordoEnes said:


> Look who is talking, Your own countrie export is 79% Oil.



Nope its actually under 50% now, don't lie. Considering everything we have been hit with in the past 30 years. Having top 10 automobile industry in the world. Being top 3 in the world for most fruits and vegetables and caviar. Also our science output. Not too bad. We continue to strive to improve, Saudi remain lazy and they will get punished for it sooner or later. I personally bet on sooner

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## VelocuR

As a disappointed with Gulf monarchy doesn't willing to purchase our own tank- Al-Khalid or even cooperations of Block 2. 



> *There is still resistance in the German federal government to selling military hardware to Saudis. Foreign Ministry and Defense Ministry both oppose it due to security and human rights considerations.*
> 
> The initial contract for 300 tanks is already ready for signing, but *still requires consent from a council of eight German ministers and the Federal Chancellor, who has to approve any export of military technology from the country. So far Germany was reluctant to sell heavy arms to the Gulf nations.* RT Source


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## BordoEnes

Shahin Vatani said:


> Nope its actually under 50% now, don't lie. Considering everything we have been hit with in the past 30 years. Having top 10 automobile industry in the world. Being top 3 in the world for most fruits and vegetables and caviar. Also our science output. Not too bad. We continue to strive to improve, Saudi remain lazy and they will get punished for it sooner or later. I personally bet on sooner









Geohraphicly abd Policiticly Saudi arabia is in a far better position then Iran, Hopefully saudi arabia will benefit from the oppertunities they get soon.

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## VelocuR

*guys, please focus on German Leopard selling to Saudi, not oil prices competitions. *


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## Kompromat

@Raptor Al-Khalid does not meet saudi requirements for a heavy MBT with 7 wheels and 1500HP+ engine.

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## Shahin Vatani

BordoEnes said:


> Geohraphicly abd Policiticly Saudi arabia is in a far better position then Iran, Hopefully saudi arabia will benefit from the oppertunities they get soon.



Looool I saw you posting same BS thing in a post before. Someone came back and owned you then, yet you post the same outdated map again.

Then you give OPINION that saudi arabia are better then Iran geopolitically and economically.

Here I will give you something you have probably never seen before, they are called FACTS. GDP by country from IMF, World Bank and CIA. Take your pick, all place Iran higher then kingdom of Al-Saud.

List of countries by GDP (PPP) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Also FYI Saudi Oil exports account for 90% of their economy. Pwned again.

Better luck trolling next time.

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## Ottoman-Turk

I think they should co-operate with our Altay tanks aswell as in future nobody knows what germany will do , they might stop sale of parts

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## lem34

Sauds should have tried doing a deal with Turks or Pakistan.

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## VelocuR

Aeronaut said:


> @Raptor Al-Khalid does not meet saudi requirements for a heavy MBT with 7 wheels and 1500HP+ engine.



I understood, the dessert issues. What benefits of this Leopard to meet Saudi expectation? what differences? 

Come on Saudi should know better state of the art Israelis Merkava was destroyed easily in Lebanon war.


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## Ottoman-Turk

How about looking at this List of countries by GDP (nominal) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Iran is 25th , 29th and 25th



Shahin Vatani said:


> Looool I saw you posting same BS thing in a post before. Someone came back and owned you then, yet you post the same outdated map again.
> 
> Then you give OPINION that saudi arabia are better then Iran geopolitically and economically.
> 
> Here I will give you something you have probably never seen before, they are called FACTS. GDP by country from IMF, World Bank and CIA. Take your pick, all place Iran higher then kingdom of Al-Saud.
> 
> List of countries by GDP (PPP) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Also FYI Saudi Oil exports account for 90% of their economy. Pwned again.
> 
> Better luck trolling next time.





Aeronaut said:


> @Raptor Al-Khalid does not meet saudi requirements for a heavy MBT with 7 wheels and 1500HP+ engine.



Altay tank will have 1500hp MTU engine or 1800hp engine (indigenous under development)


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## BordoEnes

I hope saudi actually wont buy these, So we could have some kind of JV for a Saudified Altay Tank. 

Altay for Saudi army i say 







Shahin Vatani said:


> Looool I saw you posting same BS thing in a post before. Someone came back and owned you then, yet you post the same outdated map again.
> 
> Then you give OPINION that saudi arabia are better then Iran geopolitically and economically.
> 
> Here I will give you something you have probably never seen before, they are called FACTS. GDP by country from IMF, World Bank and CIA. Take your pick, all place Iran higher then kingdom of Al-Saud.
> 
> List of countries by GDP (PPP) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Also FYI Saudi Oil exports account for 90% of their economy. Pwned again.
> 
> Better luck trolling next time.



It is a FACT that Saudi-Arabia is Strategicly, Geographicly and Policily better then Iran. See what i mean.





Saudi Arabia has the capability to create a non-oil independent economy duo there geohraphic, Iran mainly consist of 3 major mountain and a dried up sea desert in the middle. In the end when Oil will run out of Iran you will be screwed and then lets see who is economicly better, Joker.

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## lem34

But the point is that Muslims are disparately trying to build indigenous manufacturing capabilities. They could have assisted Pakistan or Turks and got a better deal.

We will never as Muslims be anything if we keep buying weapons from west etc. i know sometimes it is unavoidable but perhaps some brothers on here who are knowledgeable on tanks can tell us why this was not possible

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## Armstrong

Why not Altay ? Surely procuring a few Altays from Turkey and then entering into a JV to come up with an advanced version of it capable of matching and perhaps exceeding what either the M1A2s or the Leopards offer would have been a better decision ? 

Khair, the Leopards are pretty formidable in their own too so maybe the High Command has something else in mind !

P.S I have a massive soft spot for the Al-Khalids and from what I gather they're going for a 50 tonne + version for it ! Maybe a JV with us could have been something to look into...maybe not !

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## BordoEnes

I would love to see rather Saudified Al-Khalid (Proven Tank good in Desert!) or Saudified Altay Tank. I say lets not be dependent on the west but rather buy from each other. Pakistan has a very good cost-effective defence industry and Turkey has the goodies.

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## Shahin Vatani

BordoEnes said:


> I hope saudi actually wont buy these, So we could have some kind of JV for a Saudified Altay Tank.
> 
> Altay for Saudi army i say
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is a FACT that Saudi-Arabia is Strategicly, Geographicly and Policily better then Iran. See what i mean.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Saudi Arabia has the capability to create a non-oil independent economy duo there geohraphic, Iran mainly consist of 3 major mountain and a dried up sea desert in the middle. In the end when Oil will run out of Iran you will be screwed and then lets see who is economicly better, Joker.



HAHAHAHAHA this confused Korean Turk whatever you are. If you call Iran a wasteland then what do you call Saudi Arabia? Saudi is all desert, nothing else. No trees, literally not one river, just desert. Also these topographical maps don't tell the whole truth. If you think Iran is just desert and mountains you are sorely mistaken. Here is some pics from ALL over Iran, showing our nature (not just caspian coast before you bring that up).


Photo Album - Imgur

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## VelocuR

See the desert, our Al-Khalid is doing excellent performances. Pakistan has extensive experiences in tanks since 1990s.























> Lastly, Saudi tank gunner also achieved 100 % accuracy during AK trials
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...bt-2000-information-pool-7.html#ixzz1y4SMWwfS





> Main Battle tank (Al-Khalid) attained 100% hits at a distance of 4,000 meters and set an unprecedented record in tank technology. Al-Khalid also fired while moving, on a moving target at various ranges upto a distance of 3,000 meters and achieved 100% results.
> *
> Saudi Master Gunner, Subedar Major Yahya Bin Ahmed Atif achieved the rare feat of hitting a bulls eye at extreme ranges with 100% accuracy and achieved record firing results with a few days training only, indicative of user friendliness of Tank Al-Khalid.*

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## lem34

I think we are all probably thinking the same lol

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## BordoEnes

Shahin Vatani said:


> HAHAHAHAHA this confused Korean Turk whatever you are. If you call Iran a wasteland then what do you call Saudi Arabia? Saudi is all desert, nothing else. No trees, literally not one river, just desert. Also these topographical maps don't tell the whole truth. If you think Iran is just desert and mountains you are sorely mistaken. Here is some pics from ALL over Iran, showing our nature (not just caspian coast before you bring that up).
> 
> 
> Photo Album - Imgur



Open up a new thread in the Perian sub forum, Lets not discus this here.

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## Shahin Vatani

BordoEnes said:


> Open up a new thread in the Perian sub forum, Lets not discus this here.



You brought it up, I was talking about Saudi. Then you decided to troll and bring up Iran in response to me.

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## VelocuR

Our badass Al-Khalid

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## Cheetah786

Ottoman-Turk said:


> I think they should co-operate with our Altay tanks aswell as in future nobody knows what germany will do , they might stop sale of parts



And help a Muslim country to Move ahead are you crazy

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## Bubblegum Crisis

Skorpian said:


> Full ToT? I don't think so.





shining eyes said:


> ...
> 
> I don't think they really should waste a lot of money on these, instead they should invest in *R&D* and other big projects.
> ...





Zulkarneyn said:


> You guys should also consider in the near future to make a deal with our future Altay tanks.





Aeronaut said:


> Hope they come with domestic assembly and with some degree of TOT. Leopards will 'whip' Abrahams or ANY other tank on the planet !





Ottoman-Turk said:


> I think they should co-operate with our Altay tanks aswell as in future nobody knows what germany will do , they might stop sale of parts





RaptorRX707 said:


> I understood, the dessert issues. What benefits of this Leopard to meet Saudi expectation? what differences?
> 
> Come on Saudi should know better state of the art Israelis Merkava was destroyed easily in Lebanon war.






*
See all olds links :*

http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...ee-f-15s-helicopters-more-11.html#post2917685

http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...ee-f-15s-helicopters-more-11.html#post2917691

http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...ee-f-15s-helicopters-more-11.html#post2920359

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-forum/118240-leopard-2a7-saudi-arabia-3.html#post2997203

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-forum/118240-leopard-2a7-saudi-arabia-3.html#post2997223

http://www.defence.pk/forums/turkey-defence/173846-altay-savunma-ve-havac-l-k-dergisi.html

http://www.defence.pk/forums/turkey-defence/173846-altay-savunma-ve-havac-l-k-dergisi-2.html

http://www.defence.pk/forums/turkey-defence/173846-altay-savunma-ve-havac-l-k-dergisi-3.html

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-photos-multimedia/157113-made-turkey-15.html#post3034147

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## lem34

Cheetah786 said:


> And help a Muslim country to Move ahead are you crazy



you were thinking what I was lol

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## Wright

When you have money you want the best. The leo is top dog. 
I also think they don't want Russian based tanks after seeing how easily Iraq went down in both wars. Also from seeing the Arab- Israeli wars. 
An I think Iranian tanks are also Soviet based, which is perhaps why they went for the German one. 

Anyhow good for them, they need to build up their army to counter Iranian agression.

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## Shahin Vatani

Wright said:


> When you have money you want the best. The leo is top dog.
> 
> Good for them, they need to build up their army to counter Iranian agression.



Trust me Iran is not aggressive, we are very peaceful. If we wanted to be aggressive Saudi wouldn't be around anymore to tell the tale.

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## Arabian Legend

taking advantages of europe economical crisis is a good move by Prince Salman.

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## lem34

Guys can I ask any of you that is knowledgeable on tanks to tell us if Sauds could have done a similar deal with Pakistan and or Turkey?

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## Sharki

Shahin Vatani said:


> Trust me Iran is not aggressive, we are very peaceful. If we wanted to be aggressive Saudi wouldn't be around anymore to tell the tale.



Haaretz exclusive: Syria documents show Iran helping Assad to sidestep sanctions

Haaretz exclusive: Syria documents show Iran helping Assad to sidestep sanctions - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News

Syrian army being aided by Iranian forces

Syrian army being aided by Iranian forces | World news | guardian.co.uk

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## lem34

Aeronaut said:


> @Raptor Al-Khalid does not meet saudi requirements for a heavy MBT with 7 wheels and 1500HP+ engine.



But they would not have this problem with Pakistan and or Turkey. They could use them how they want.:

*
Twice as deadly: Saudi Arabia aims at 10 bln euro tank deal with Germany*

Published: 17 June, 2012, 10:50


Saudi Arabia wants to buy between 600 and 800 Leopard II main battle tanks from Germany, at least twice more than what was previously reported, a German newspaper says. The future deal is estimated to worth around 10 billion euros.

A German-Saudi contract for purchase of some 300 brand new modern tanks was on the table since at least last year. Hover the Gulf monarchy wants more hardware, Bild newspaper reports.

There is still resistance in the German federal government to selling military hardware to Saudis. Foreign Ministry and Defense Ministry both oppose it due to security and human rights considerations.

The Economy Ministry advocates the deal, which would give a boost to domestic defense producers Krauss-Maffei Wegman and Rheinmetall, especially as the demand for armor from the German army shrinks with its ongoing restructuring.

The initial contract for 300 tanks is already ready for signing, but still requires consent from a council of eight German ministers and the Federal Chancellor, who has to approve any export of military technology from the country. So far Germany was reluctant to sell heavy arms to the Gulf nations.

Bild says Spanish firm General Dynamic/Santa Barbara would produce the tanks under a license, if the deal is finally given the green light. Saudis would like to have it sealed before the holy month of Ramadan starts on July 20.

The first reports on a possible sell of hundreds of state-of-art German Leopard 2A7+ tanks surfaced in July 2011. The news caused criticism by rights groups and opposition politicians in Germany, who were discontent that German arms would be supplied to a country with poor human rights record. They said Saudi Arabia may the tanks, which are tailored for desert and urban warfare, to quash domestic dissent.

When mass pro-democratic protests erupted in Bahrain last year, Saudi Arabia sent its troops to help local security forces in a crackdown on the Bahraini opposition. The two monarchies are currently considering forming a closer political alliance.


Twice as deadly: Saudi Arabia aims at 10 bln euro tank deal with Germany &mdash; RT


*
To add insult to injury they make money and they tell you they are doing you a favour lol*



Ottoman-Turk said:


> I think they should co-operate with our Altay tanks aswell as in future nobody knows what germany will do , they might stop sale of parts



I agree with you 1000%


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## Shahin Vatani

Sharki said:


> Haaretz exclusive: Syria documents show Iran helping Assad to sidestep sanctions
> 
> Haaretz exclusive: Syria documents show Iran helping Assad to sidestep sanctions - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News
> 
> Syrian army being aided by Iranian forces
> 
> Syrian army being aided by Iranian forces | World news | guardian.co.uk



So what? Syria is our ally, what has that got to do with us being aggressive to Saudi Arabia?

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## lem34

BordoEnes said:


> I would love to see rather Saudified Al-Khalid (Proven Tank good in Desert!) or Saudified Altay Tank. I say lets not be dependent on the west but rather buy from each other. Pakistan has a very good cost-effective defence industry and Turkey has the goodies.



maybe we could have done a deal three ways between Pakistan Turkey and Saud. The west often do joint ventures on weapons and pool costs together etc

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## BordoEnes

Aryan_B said:


> maybe we could have done a deal three ways between Pakistan Turkey and Saud. The west often do joint ventures on weapons and pool costs together etc



Would be a dream come true, Dont think thats ever done.

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## Armstrong

Aryan_B said:


> Guys can I ask any of you that is knowledgeable on tanks to tell us if Sauds could have done a similar deal with Pakistan and or Turkey?



I haven't a clue about Tanks but in the Al-Khalid Information Pool thread, *Antibody* had posted an interesting article on this : 



> BTW, received this interesting Article from SomeBozo regarding the Saudi deal for Al-Khalids, the evaluation/testing of the tank and its overall performance:
> 
> 
> ISLAMABAD, Pakistan: (PNS) - A 23-member Royal Saudi Land Forces evaluation team headed by Maj Gen Ahmed Bin Saeed Al-Shehri visited Pakistan for evaluation of indigenously manufactured products of Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT).
> 
> The evaluation team was warmly welcomed by the Chairman HIT, who gave them an exhaustive briefing on the capability of HIT and its potential for marketing sophisticated weapon systems suiting the dictates of modern warfare.
> 
> The Saudi team showed keen interest in state-of-the-art and pride of Pakistan Armour, Al-Khalid tank and APC Saad, and carried out intensive in-house technical evaluation and trials.
> 
> During the arduous trials under most inhospitable environments, the roaring Al-Khalid, a marvel of tank technology performed astoundingly well. It is for the first time that a Main Battle tank (Al-Khalid) attained 100% hits at a distance of 4,000 meters and set an unprecedented record in tank technology.
> 
> Al-Khalid also fired while moving, on a moving target at various ranges upto a distance of 3,000 meters and achieved 100% results. The lethality and accuracy of the weapon stations of Al-Khalid, its high power to weight ratio and manoeuvrability demonstrated in the most hostile terrain speaks volumes of its agility and combat capability to challenge any tank of the world.
> 
> Saudi Master Gunner, Subedar Major Yahya Bin Ahmed Atif achieved the rare feat of hitting a bulls eye at extreme ranges with 100% accuracy and achieved record firing results with a few days training only, indicative of user friendliness of Tank Al-Khalid.
> 
> The delegation was highly impressed with the performance of tank Al-Khalid and APC Saad during arduous trials. The new generation, APC Saad of Pakistan Armed forces has also been totally manufactured in Pakistan with a vision to meet the demands of 21st century battlefield.
> 
> Pakistan is rightfully proud of its engineers and technicians who envisioned, designed and manufactured such combat multipliers, giving its Armed Forces the power punch and capability to face any challenge to its national security.
> 
> Defense Cooperation & Sales  IX
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...t-2000-information-pool-17.html#ixzz1y4docyfd

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## lem34

BordoEnes said:


> Would be a dream come true, Dont think thats ever done.



thats why our countries are frakked. its obvious what should be done here. We have scientists, we have population why we can not cooperate it is disgusting to me as Muslim to see this.

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## Ottoman-Turk

I think Turkiye+( Northern Cyprus ) , Azerbaijan , SA + GCC should develop air fighter together , I never included pakistan as they already getting j-17


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## kollang

Ottoman-Turk said:


> How about looking at this List of countries by GDP (nominal) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Iran is 25th , 29th and 25th
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Altay tank will have 1500hp MTU engine or 1800hp engine (indigenous under development)


you are a non functional idiot!
you dont know the differece between GDP(nominal) and GDP(estimates)
Iran produce oil quarter of what saudis produced and but another hand we rank 17 while saudis rank 22.

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## lem34

Ottoman-Turk said:


> I think Turkiye+( Northern Cyprus ) , Azerbaijan , SA + GCC should develop air fighter together , I never included pakistan as they already getting j-17



man I do not care if it is not including Pakistan. For us to be truly independent our nations must produce their own weapons. It gives me great joy to hear Turkey Iran any Muslim country start to industrialise and make own weapons.

If Turkey produces anything check past posts I am always proud to see it make head way. Any Muslim country please please produce your own weapons lol

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## Kompromat

@Raptor. Thats because Leopard by far is world's best main battle tank.

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## thefreesyrian

Why iranians are always obliged to show up even when we dont talk abt their country. They have an horrible inferiority complex

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## VelocuR

*Al Khalid Exercise*

Al Khalid Tanks Excercise - YouTube

*Accessories*
Fire Control system
Laser Warning system
Laser Range finder
NBC Protection (Nuclear Biological Chemical)
Night Vision
more additions

*Armor*
All-welded steel armour
reactive and composite armour

*Speed*
72 km/h maximum road speed (similar as Leopard)
Maximum Range: 267 miles (430km)

*Armament Suite:*
1 x 125mm smoothbore main gun
1 x 12.7 anti-aircraft machine gun
1 x 7.62mm co-axial machine gun
2 x 6 smoke grenade discharges
*
Ammunition:*
39 x 125mm projectiles
500 x 12.7mm ammunition
2,000 x 7.62mm ammunition
12 x 6 smoke grenades






Night Vision by Al Khalid.
















Integrated Battlefield Management System

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lC1EB-sqKBY&feature=player_embedded#!
This system decoys anti-tank guided missiles and counters laser designators and range finders by causing false readings to disrupt tracking in Al Khalid System called Varta.



> Al-Khalid is the only tank in the world, apart from French tanks, *which can auto-track enemy tanks. *

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## thefreesyrian

About the subject, im not sure abt this coz we hear abt the leopard buying since the eighties. But it will add a considerable punch to the saudi land forces, able to repel any iranian iraki attack.

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## Shahin Vatani

thefreesyrian said:


> *Why iranians are always obliged to show up even when we dont talk abt their country*. They have an horrible inferiority complex



Because we are the bosses of the Middle East, so we have to regulate what is being said from time to time


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## lem34

Aeronaut said:


> @Raptor. Thats because Leopard by far is world's best main battle tank.



How are we ever in the Muslim world going to improve eh?? By buying American and European? Anyway it looks as if the Germans might not sell them. Can you trust west not to put kill switches in their equipment. In this day and age of computers it would be easy


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## Ottoman-Turk

I never ment to say it in a way to offend , i agree slowly we are doing that , Tank and land we are good by ourselves , navy we are good ourselves , however air is hardest and we are now working for own jet fighter which is hard

Land
Tank- Altay APC - we have many

Navy
Milgem 

Air
ANKA UAV TF-X Jet program



Aryan_B said:


> man I do not care if it is not including Pakistan. For us to be truly independent our nations must produce their own weapons. It gives me great joy to hear Turkey Iran any Muslim country start to industrialise and make own weapons.
> 
> If Turkey produces anything check past posts I am always proud to see it make head way. Any Muslim country please please produce your own weapons lol





kollang said:


> you are a non functional idiot!
> you dont know the differece between GDP(nominal) and GDP(estimates)
> Iran produce oil quarter of what saudis produced and but another hand we rank 17 while saudis rank 22.



You idiot i know what i posted

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## lem34

Ottoman-Turk said:


> I never ment to say it in a way to offend , i agree slowly we are doing that , Tank and land we are good by ourselves , navy we are good ourselves , however air is hardest and we are now working for own jet fighter which is hard
> 
> Land
> Tank- Altay APC - we have many
> 
> Navy
> Milgem
> 
> Air
> ANKA UAV TF-X Jet program
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You idiot i know what i posted



Bro I think Turkey and Pakistan may have done some work on cruise missile together I think I read somewhere it made me so happy to hear
*
Guys please can we stop fighting on this thread there is no need for it*

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## Wright

Aryan_B said:


> How are we ever in the Muslim world going to improve eh?? By buying American and European? Anyway it looks as if the Germans might not sell them. Can you trust west not to put kill switches in their equipment. In this day and age of computers it would be easy



I think it has more to do with lack of automotive, electronic infastructure. South Korea and Japan have the capability to produce airplanes, tanks, etc. But, that is because they have multinational corporations constantly investing in R & D and reaping profits.


----------



## thefreesyrian

Correct me, but turkey have upgraded hundreds of troops armored carriers of saudi lands forces. About altay, its not even clear when he will be produced...but with saudi at odds with russia and china, im sure they will look forward buying turkish product, who are modern, reliable, efficient to destroy the iranian junk

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## lem34

thefreesyrian said:


> Correct me, but turkey have upgraded hundreds of troops armored carriers of saudi lands forces. About altay, its not even clear when he will be produced...but with saudi at odds with russia and china, im sure they will look forward buying turkish product, who are modern, reliable, efficient to destroy the iranian junk



What is the matter with you why you trying to start something here. Obviously Arab weapons are never going to be used to assist Palestinians are they.

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## Ottoman-Turk

We produce one of the most automotive in europe , we can make our own car easily BUT the problem is big businessman have the right to sell products like ford , renault etc in turkiye so if we make our own brand car then they will be competing so the businessman dont want it although the government is saying the private sector should make our own brand



Wright said:


> I think it has more to do with lack of automotive, electronic infastructure. South Korea and Japan have the capability to produce airplanes, tanks, etc. But, that is because they have multinational corporations constantly investing in R & D and reaping profits.



In 2008 we produced 1,150,000 motor vehicles , we are 15th largest producer in world

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## VelocuR

I never understood Saudi unable to purchase Al-Khalid for some reasons. They think of BMW or ferrari luxury something.



Aeronaut said:


> @Raptor. Thats because Leopard by far is world's best main battle tank.



BS. We produced similarly, Saudi think of best brand products. Think about Israeli Merkava was destroyed in Lebanon war, best??

I don't think they understand war scenarios, it will be repeat same mistakes during previous six days wars without self-reliances.

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## Ottoman-Turk

iam hoping we make the Canal Istanbul which will be very great and strategic aswell


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Lol... and theyd be rotting in the sun after a while... why dnt the saudis develop their own tank?


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## Wright

Ottoman-Turk said:


> We produce one of the most automotive in europe , we can make our own car easily BUT the problem is big businessman have the right to sell products like ford , renault etc in turkiye so if we make our own brand car then they will be competing so the businessman dont want it although the government is saying the private sector should make our own brand
> 
> 
> 
> In 2008 we produced 1,150,000 motor vehicles , we are 15th largest producer in world



I was speaking more about the GCC nations. However in the case you mentioned above, the intellectual propery rights belong to ford, a corporation of another nation. 

It is different than offering local companies tenders to produce military goods. Like Japan does with it's automakers, or the US with it's airplane manfacturers.


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## Ottoman-Turk

Wright said:


> I was speaking more about the GCC nations. However in the case you mentioned above, the intellectual propery rights belong to ford, a corporation of another nation.
> 
> It is different than offering local companies tenders to produce military goods. Like Japan does with it's automakers, or the US with it's airplane manfacturers.



please read all my post again , big businessman e.g Koc Holding , dont want our own brand car because they will be in direct competition with the products they locally produce e.g ford etc so they can lose money , so they are saying there is no need to make our own brand car otherwise we have all the expertise etc






Together we can stand , divided we fall

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## Shahin Vatani

Ottoman-Turk said:


> please read all my post again , big businessman e.g Koc Holding , dont want our own brand car because they will be in direct competition with the products they locally produce e.g ford etc so they can lose money , so they are saying there is no need to make our own brand car otherwise we have all the expertise etc
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Together we can stand , divided we fall



You must be real mad bro to post all these flags loool. You got dominated on the Armenia thread so you had to run away to this one

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## lem34

Can you imagine. Suppose we can dream include Pakistan Iran Turkey and GCC lol

I would be happy if we just cooperated


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## BLACKEAGLE

With all due respect and love to our Pakistani brothers and products but I can't believe you guys comparing Leopard 2A7 with Al-khalid.

It's even superior to American Abrams m1a2 in protection, mobility, fire power and in almost everything.

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## Shahin Vatani

Aryan_B said:


> Can you imagine. Suppose we can dream include Pakistan Iran Turkey and GCC lol
> 
> I would be happy if we just cooperated



Iran, Turkey and GCC never in a million years! Iran and Pakistan however are good neighbours and I wish for development of mutual relations!

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## lem34

BLACKEAGLE said:


> With all due respect and love to our Pakistani brothers and products but I can't believe you guys comparing Leopard 2A7 with Al-khalid.
> 
> It's even superior to American Abrams m1a2 in protection, mobility, fire power and in almost everything.



Did you read earlier article. First they may refuse to sell, then they may at any time in future withhold parts and third they may install kill switch. Pleas do not buy from Pakistan. Buy from Turkey.


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## Gandhi G in da house

Who can Saudi Arabia ever have a war with except for Iran perhaps ?


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## lem34

nick_indian said:


> Who can Saudi Arabia ever have a war with except for Iran perhaps ?



Anyone any ideas lol only an Indian could ask that


----------



## BLACKEAGLE

Aryan_B said:


> Did you read earlier article. First they may refuse to sell, then they may at any time in future withhold parts and third they may install kill switch. Pleas do not buy from Pakistan. Buy from Turkey.



And do you know what does Leopard 2A7 mean? it's just the most powerful tank has ever been produced...

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## lem34

BLACKEAGLE said:


> And do you know what does Leopard 2A7 mean? it's just the most powerful tank has ever been produced...



do you know how easy it would be to put a kill switch in the kit. Do think they would supply parts lets say in the unlikely event Sauds went to war with say Israel??


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## BLACKEAGLE

Aryan_B said:


> do you know how easy it would be to put a kill switch in the kit. Do think they would supply parts lets say in the unlikely event Sauds went to war with say Israel??



Almost most KSA jets and tanks spare parts are being already manufactured locally. 
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-forum/185004-middle-east-propulsion-company-mepc.html


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## lem34

BLACKEAGLE said:


> Almost most KSA jets and tanks spare parts are being already manufactured locally.
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-forum/185004-middle-east-propulsion-company-mepc.html



"almost" makes it meaning less but hey go for it mate good luck


----------



## BLACKEAGLE

Aryan_B said:


> "almost" makes it meaning less but hey go for it mate good luck



As you like man. I think like you, KSA should have her indigenous arm industry, but it's good that they have started it already, albeit lately.


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## Armstrong

BLACKEAGLE said:


> With all due respect and love to our Pakistani brothers and products but I can't believe you guys comparing Leopard 2A7 with Al-khalid.
> 
> It's even superior to American Abrams m1a2 in protection, mobility, fire power and in almost everything.



Nah mate, we're not comparing them ! I'm sure the Leopards are a formidable piece of equipment but we're just asking wouldn't it be something if (forget the Al-Khalids...we think highly of them but..forget it !) Saudia Arabia had instead gone for a joint venture with Turkey for an unpgraded Altay built as per Saudi specifications ? Between the M-1A2s and the existing Leopards the Saudi Armed Forces have more than an admirable armored foot print and with no immediate threat looming in the near future wouldn't it be a worthwhile exercise to actually be engaged in a project where you take part in everything from the designing to the prototype and then re-designing and finally manufacturing a world-class MBT like the Altay, in contrast to getting the blue-prints for manufacturing a Leopard ! You tell which of the two would be a better learning experience ? Which of the two would have a greater opportunity to improve upon the design drastically as per your own specifications ? Which if the two would give a greater independence to the Saudi Armed Forces and which of the two would benefit the defense industry in the Muslim world the most ? 

To hell with us Pakistanis with our Al-Khalids but the Altays are a sweet...sweet tank worth looking at ! Had the Saudi High Command made the decision to join up with the Turks in the initial stages of the Altay....I'm sure the two of you would have been able to attract even a European country in addition to the Koreans who made some sort of contribution to the project ! 

But what do I know...? There is a reason why I'm sitting on my arse a 1000 miles from you whilst the Saudis who get to make these calls are sitting in the GHQ in Saudi Arabia !

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## Ottoman-Turk

This aint my life , iam watching Euro 2012 , but maybe you dont have a TV or they dont allow you to watch it other than iranian propoganda



Shahin Vatani said:


> You must be real mad bro to post all these flags loool. You got dominated on the Armenia thread so you had to run away to this one


----------



## lem34

BLACKEAGLE said:


> As you like man. I think like you, KSA should have her indigenous arm industry, but it's good that they have started it already, albeit lately.



You know one thing we lack in Muslim world is defense industry. We have scientists. We have populations. How we ever going to move forward if we do not support each other. If Arabs going to fight Israel their weapons wont work you know that. Against Iran Turkey is producing as good as Iran. It would be cheaper and it would provide work for Turks or Pakistan. But now hey these Sauds want to feed Germans



Armstrong said:


> Nah mate, we're not comparing them ! I'm sure the Leopards are a formidable piece of equipment but we're just asking wouldn't it be something if (forget the Al-Khalids...we think highly of them but..forget it !) Saudia Arabia had instead gone for a joint venture with Turkey for an unpgraded Altay built as per Saudi specifications ? Between the M-1A2s and the existing Leopards the Saudi Armed Forces have more than an admirable armored foot print and with no immediate threat looming in the near future wouldn't it be a worthwhile exercise to actually be engaged in a project where you take part in everything from the designing to the prototype and then re-designing and finally manufacturing a world-class MBT like the Altay, in contrast to getting the blue-prints for manufacturing a Leopard ! You tell which of the two would be a better learning experience ? Which of the two would have a greater opportunity to improve upon the design drastically as per your own specifications ? Which if the two would give a greater independence to the Saudi Armed Forces and which of the two would benefit the defense industry in the Muslim world the most ?
> 
> To hell with us Pakistanis with our Al-Khalids but the Altays are a sweet...sweet tank worth looking at ! Had the Saudi High Command made the decision to join up with the Turks in the initial stages of the Altay....I'm sure the two of you would have been able to attract even a European country in addition to the Koreans who made some sort of contribution to the project !
> 
> But what do I know...? There is a reason why I'm sitting on my arse a 1000 miles from you whilst the Saudis who get to make these calls are sitting in the GHQ in Saudi Arabia !



You know if the Turks and Sauds produced a good product we could buy it, Anyway I am sure Pakistan and Turkey worked on or are working on cruise missile and also Turks helped us with F16 parts

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## Ottoman-Turk

mate nobody is saying dont buy the leopard , but they are even acting up so you SA should say , eh look if you are acting up on selling me the tanks ok i dnt f... need you i will make my own or join up and develop together with someone else 



BLACKEAGLE said:


> As you like man. I think like you, KSA should have her indigenous arm industry, but it's good that they have started it already, albeit lately.



We lack air i would say is more appropriate , i think most muslim countries can do good tanks ( altay , al-khalid) , navy ( milgem ) but we need to make own JETS and also maybe air defence aswell so Jets and air defence and we are good going , Pakistan is already very good at missiles e.g babur 



Aryan_B said:


> You know one thing we lack in Muslim world is defense industry. We have scientists. We have populations. How we ever going to move forward if we do not support each other. If Arabs going to fight Israel their weapons wont work you know that. Against Iran Turkey is producing as good as Iran. It would be cheaper and it would provide work for Turks or Pakistan. But now hey these Sauds want to feed Germans
> 
> 
> 
> You know if the Turks and Sauds produced a good product we could buy it, Anyway I am sure Pakistan and Turkey worked on or are working on cruise missile and also Turks helped us with F16 parts

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## POST_HUMAN_WAR

Good choice by the Saudis the leopard 2 is curretly one of the best tanks in the world.


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## Sinnerman108

Aryan_B said:


> You know one thing we lack in Muslim world is defense industry. We have scientists. We have populations. How we ever going to move forward if we do not support each other. If Arabs going to fight Israel their weapons wont work you know that. Against Iran Turkey is producing as good as Iran. It would be cheaper and it would provide work for Turks or Pakistan. But now hey these Sauds want to feed Germans
> 
> 
> 
> You know if the Turks and Sauds produced a good product we could buy it, Anyway I am sure Pakistan and Turkey worked on or are working on cruise missile and also Turks helped us with F16 parts



Arayan

haven't you seen the amount of respect people have given you in another thread.

don't you still not see the signs !


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## lem34

salman108 said:


> Arayan
> 
> haven't you seen the amount of respect people have given you in another thread.
> 
> don't you still not see the signs !



Your and your mates' (who believe those little tin pots dictators in Saud can do no wrong) abusive ad hominem attacks whether behind my back or when I am on a thread are just that and add little gravitas to any discussion on any thread.

back on topic Good luck to Sauds on their multi billion pound purchases from the west

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## Kompromat

@Raptor No Tank in the world can survive an ATGM attack , which happened in Lebanon.

Alkhalid is like a Sohrab Bicycle infront of Leopard. You can buy 3 Ak's in the price of one Leopard.


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## Shahin Vatani

Ottoman-Turk said:


> This aint my life , iam watching Euro 2012 , but maybe you dont have a TV or they dont allow you to watch it other than iranian propoganda



Bro I am watching Euros as well. Too bad Turkey are soo terrible at football they can't even qualify. Iran is going to be at the World Cup in 2014, I would say see you there, but I doubt it!!

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## Gandhi G in da house

Aryan_B said:


> Anyone any ideas lol only an Indian could ask that



If you have no proper answer to give then stfu would be a good idea .


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## Armstrong

Aryan_B said:


> You know if the Turks and Sauds produced a good product we could buy it, *Anyway I am sure Pakistan and Turkey worked on or are working on cruise missile* and also Turks helped us with F16 parts



Any source for that ?


----------



## lem34

Armstrong said:


> Any source for that ?



google it there are some references to blogs I think but i couldn't open them. But I guarantee you something happened I read Chinese may also have had a hand in it

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## Armstrong

nick_indian said:


> If you have no proper answer to give then stfu would be a good idea .








*
Aryan and Me :*

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## Ottoman-Turk

hhahah anyone with a brain would laugh at this comment , iran football team is no way near Turkish football team , your best result is round 1 in world cup , also you got battered 6-1 to us before 



Shahin Vatani said:


> Bro I am watching Euros as well. Too bad Turkey are soo terrible at football they can't even qualify. Iran is going to be at the World Cup in 2014, I would say see you there, but I doubt it!!

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## Armstrong

Ottoman-Turk said:


> hhahah anyone with a brain would laugh at this comment , iran football team is no way near Turkish football team , your best result is round 1 in world cup , also you got battered 6-1 to us before



Oh forget about International football; tell me Gala or Fener ?


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## Ottoman-Turk

Galatasaray all the way just watch these











These will be voted as one of the best kareografi shows in the world

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## lem34

I would love to see Iran vs Turkey football match settle all difference on the field lol

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## Ottoman-Turk

Galatasaray champion 2012 - we will be in Champions league next year

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## Shahin Vatani

Ottoman-Turk said:


> hhahah anyone with a brain would laugh at this comment , iran football team is no way near Turkish football team , your best result is round 1 in world cup , also you got battered 6-1 to us before



That was 50 years ago you beat us, wow so relevant to today! Facts are stubborn things, we have qualified for 3 world cups (4 soon) you have qualified for 1. You steal 99.9% of your players from Germany, Sahin, Altintop, balta loool without Germany your team would be losing to Leichtensteing and Luxembourg!!!

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## Ottoman-Turk

They are still way behind to compete , we are 2nd stage in football while they are like 4th stage team

1st stage - brazil , argentina , spain , italy etc

2nd stage , Turkiye , sweden , uruguay , croatia , russia etc



Aryan_B said:


> I would love to see Iran vs Turkey football match settle all difference on the field lol


----------



## Armstrong

*@ Ottoman Turk :* I'm a Fenerbahce fan myself ! Whats up with you Turks on PDF...? I can't find a single Fener fan ?


----------



## Ottoman-Turk

you are a joker , your best achievement in world cup was round 1 while we was 3rd in 2002 , semi-finalist in 2008 euro , quarter final euro 2000 , We have 2 turkish players in Real madrid the best club in the world , we have players in top teams e.g real madrid , athletico madrid , valencia etc 



Shahin Vatani said:


> That was 50 years ago you beat us, wow so relevant to today! Facts are stubborn things, we have qualified for 3 world cups (4 soon) you have qualified for 1. You steal 99.9% of your players from Germany, Sahin, Altintop, balta loool without Germany your team would be losing to Leichtensteing and Luxembourg!!!





Armstrong said:


> *@ Ottoman Turk :* I'm a Fenerbahce fan myself ! Whats up with you Turks on PDF...? I can't find a single Fener fan ?



ey man forget fener , galatasaray all the way


----------



## Shahin Vatani

Ottoman-Turk said:


> They are still way behind to compete , we are 2nd stage in football while they are like 4th stage team
> 
> 1st stage - brazil , argentina , spain , italy etc
> 
> 2nd stage , Turkiye , sweden , uruguay , croatia , russia etc



That is very funny, because in your made up stages, Croatia spanked you just a couple months ago 3-0 in Istanbul. Yet we beat Russia which is another of your second stage teams. What a clown you are, Turkey is joke of Europe football. Your clubs can't even qualify for group stage of Champions League let alone for international tournaments!!!

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## Ottoman-Turk

GALATASARAY UEFACUP 2000 WINNER


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## NeutralCitizen

Tanks for Iran or Israel ? if they are for Iran best route is through Khuzestan Iran terrain makes it difficult as for Israel

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## Ottoman-Turk

YOU IDIOT BEATING ONCE DONT MEAN YOU ARE BETTER THEN THEM , SO IF WE BEAT BRAZIL 5 TIME WORLD CUP WINNER WE ARE BETTER?



Shahin Vatani said:


> That is very funny, because in your made up stages, Croatia spanked you just a couple months ago 3-0 in Istanbul. Yet we beat Russia which is another of your second stage teams. What a clown you are, Turkey is joke of Europe football. Your clubs can't even qualify for group stage of Champions League let alone for international tournaments!!!


----------



## Shahin Vatani

Ottoman-Turk said:


> you are a joker , your best achievement in world cup was round 1 while we was 3rd in 2002 , semi-finalist in 2008 euro , quarter final euro 2000 , *We have 2 turkish players in Real madrid *the best club in the world , we have players in top teams e.g real madrid , athletico madrid , valencia etc
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ey man forget fener , galatasaray all the way




Hahahahahaha all together they played 5 minutes of football this year!!!! WOOOOW such big stars of Real Madrid!!! Not to mention both where developed in Germany...

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## Ottoman-Turk

HAHAH AND YOU CHOOSE A FREINDLY MATCH



Shahin Vatani said:


> Hahahahahaha all together they played 5 minutes of football this year!!!! WOOOOW such big stars of Real Madrid!!! Not to mention both where developed in Germany...



ey , just stop crying , and also we are not talking about iran teams as they are unknown , rubbish , national team is rubbish aswell , so please im talking with armstrong about galatasaray

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## NeutralCitizen

Abram biggest problem is the fuel consumption and cost egypt got downgraded abram armor and abram uses german gun.


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## Armstrong

Aryan_B said:


> I would love to see Iran vs Turkey football match settle all difference on the field lol



I saw the Palestine vs Pakistan football match here in Lahore last year ! We lost 2-1 and to watch it, especially after a season of watching the Premier League, was painful to say the least ! Our team could probably be owned by some 3rd tier team like Leeds United ! Damn and to think that we've got some exceptional players in Pakistan; I've played with a couple !


----------



## Skorpian

This thread has turned to football bashing thread.

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## Ottoman-Turk

felipe melo former juventus and brazil internation galatasaray championship dance with emanuel eboue former arsenal 








Skorpian said:


> This thread has turned to football bashing thread.



Mate this iranian gypsy did this 

Turkiye - portugal friendly before euro 2012 portugal with full squad

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## NeutralCitizen

BLACKEAGLE said:


> With all due respect and love to our Pakistani brothers and products but I can't believe you guys comparing Leopard 2A7 with Al-khalid.
> 
> It's even superior to American Abrams m1a2 in protection, mobility, fire power and in almost everything.



Al Khalid is inferior to all western tanks it's good for third world countries sudan, bangladesh, myanmar, the only edge I would give to the Al Khalid is that pakistani tank crews are superior to Arab crews.



RaptorRX707 said:


> Our badass Al-Khalid



It's inferior to all western tanks no wonder it wasn't used, only edge is the pakistani tank crew.


----------



## Armstrong

Ottoman-Turk said:


> you are a joker , your best achievement in world cup was round 1 while we was 3rd in 2002 , semi-finalist in 2008 euro , quarter final euro 2000 , We have 2 turkish players in Real madrid the best club in the world , we have players in top teams e.g real madrid , athletico madrid , valencia etc
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ey man forget fener , galatasaray all the way



I have no idea what this means but my Pakistani friend who spent his childhood in Turkey and introduced me to Fenerbahce used to write this on each of his note-books when we were in school : 

Tribünlerde Hep Dillerde
Bu Sevda Bitmez Gönüllerde
Dara&#287;ac&#305;nda Olsak Bile
Son Sozumuz FENERBAHCE




P.S Sahin is good but I fear that his injury problems may overshadow an otherwise exceptional player ! And to be fair Altintop isn't that great anymore ! But if you'd throw in Ozil (he is of Turkish descent after all) then you've got some decent representation in Real ! 

P.P.S Liverpool F.C is the best club in the world !

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## Shahin Vatani

Ottoman-Turk said:


> felipe melo former juventus and brazil internation galatasaray championship dance with emanuel eboue former arsenal
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mate this iranian gypsy did this
> 
> Turkiye - portugal friendly before euro 2012 portugal with full squad


IRAN:

3 Time Asian Champions,

Qualified for all Asian Cups,

Qualified for 3 (soon 4) World Cups,

Club teams won Asian Champions League multiple times

TURKEY:

1 World Cup appearance
0 Euro wins
0 Champions League wins
0 Trophies at all.

Yet you steal all of Germany's rejects, their good players like Ozil tell you to F*** off!!!

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## DESERT FIGHTER

NeutralCitizen said:


> *Al Khalid is inferior to all western tanks* it's good for third world countries sudan, bangladesh, myanmar, the only edge I would give to the Al Khalid is that pakistani tank crews are superior to Arab crews.








TRY THIS BEFORE YAPPING:
http://www.google.com.pk/url?sa=t&r..._tG2DQ&usg=AFQjCNEPXpB0AvKpypRgH9HJOmKJwGbjqw

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## NeutralCitizen

Wright said:


> When you have money you want the best. The leo is top dog.
> I also think they don't want Russian based tanks after seeing how easily Iraq went down in both wars. Also from seeing the Arab- Israeli wars.
> An I think Iranian tanks are also Soviet based, which is perhaps why they went for the German one.
> 
> Anyhow good for them, they need to build up their army to counter Iranian agression.



Iraqi Tanks were monkey model weaponry their T-72's were downgraded not to mention the Iraqi's Tank Crews were poorly trained, the arabs who are poorly trained they gave soviet/russian weaponry a bad rep but I would also blame the monkey model weaponry.


----------



## BLACKEAGLE

Skorpian said:


> This thread has turned to football bashing thread.



And people wonder why we love KSA. Every thread of them got ruined like this. I exclude Armstrong posts of course which I enjoy reading them wither they off/on topics...

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## Ottoman-Turk

hahaha asian cup , hahahhaah you made me laugh , if iran was in europe they wouldnt be able to qualify once yet think about going to semi finals


----------



## NeutralCitizen

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> TRY THIS BEFORE YAPPING:
> http://www.google.com.pk/url?sa=t&r..._tG2DQ&usg=AFQjCNEPXpB0AvKpypRgH9HJOmKJwGbjqw



So it's superior to Abrams, leclerc , leopard, challenger. if it is why aren't the gulf buying this superior tank over the current western tanks.

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## Ottoman-Turk

Armstrong said:


> I have no idea what this means but my Pakistani friend who spent his childhood in Turkey and introduced me to Fenerbahce used to write this on each of his note-books when we were in school :
> 
> Tribünlerde Hep Dillerde
> Bu Sevda Bitmez Gönüllerde
> Dara&#287;ac&#305;nda Olsak Bile
> Son Sozumuz FENERBAHCE
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P.S Sahin is good but I fear that his injury problems may overshadow an otherwise exceptional player ! And to be fair Altintop isn't that great anymore ! But if you'd throw in Ozil (he is of Turkish descent after all) then you've got some decent representation in Real !
> 
> P.P.S Liverpool F.C is the best club in the world !



Bro , switch to galatasaray

GS fans poster to help pakistan

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## Shahin Vatani

Ottoman-Turk said:


> hahaha asian cup , hahahhaah you made me laugh , if iran was in europe they wouldnt be able to qualify once yet think about going to semi finals



Laugh all you want, teams like Iran, South Korea, Japan and Australia would all beat you hard if you played in Asian Cup!


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## RazPaK

Ottoman-Turk said:


> Bro , switch to galatasaray
> 
> GS fans poster to help pakistan



Love Gala. Fenerbache can ^^(^&%^&(**&&.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Aryan_B said:


> google it there are some references to blogs I think but i couldn't open them. But I guarantee you something happened I read Chinese may also have had a hand in it



GIDS helped turkey on the armour of Altay MBT.... with ToT etc.

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## Ottoman-Turk

SK - TURKEY

JAPAN - TURKEY






I think SA will look to buy or join with us in altay in a few years

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## BLACKEAGLE

NeutralCitizen said:


> Al Khalid is inferior to all western tanks it's good for third world countries sudan, bangladesh, myanmar, the only edge I would give to the Al Khalid is that pakistani tank crews are superior to Arab crews.
> 
> 
> 
> It's inferior to all western tanks no wonder it wasn't used, only edge is the pakistani tank crew.



Only military field newbie fans would say this. Al-Khalid is a very modern and powerful tank. But there is a good tank, better and the best which happen to be Leopard 2A7. Why would they go for a good tank rather than the best one. I don't know, but this is my personal opinion, I am a fan of Russian arms but not their tanks, which Al-khalid is comparable to.

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## Shahin Vatani

LOOL you showing clips from 10 years ago!!! Asian football has gotten 100X better since then. Players like Kagawa, Ansarifard and Djeparov would dance all around your German reject team!!!

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## Armstrong

BLACKEAGLE said:


> And people wonder why we love KSA. Every thread of them got ruined like this. I exclude *Armstrong* posts of course which I enjoy reading them wither they off/on topics...



Because you're a cat person a normal hug just won't do ! 








Ottoman-Turk said:


> Bro , switch to galatasaray
> 
> GS fans poster to help pakistan



Fener who ?

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## DESERT FIGHTER

NeutralCitizen said:


> So it's superior to Abrams, leclerc , leopard, challenger. if it is why aren't the gulf buying this superior tank over the current western tanks.



It uses the same transmission as lecrec,1200hp engine,hunter killer,UAV connectivity,Sat navigation system,anti tank laser guided missiles like modified Kombat and red sparrow,has catherine,sagem etc FCS,72/KMPH speed,Fires DU,HEAT,HE APSFDS ETC ....And even on specs its far more superior to the russian T-90...so if a T-90 is good enough our AK is probably a few times better!


So i say again read tht thread before making foolish statements!

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## NeutralCitizen

BLACKEAGLE said:


> Only military field newbie fans wouldn't say this. I didn't say Al-Khalid is a very modern and powerful tank. But there is a good tank, better and the best which happen to be Leopard 2A7. Why would they go for a good tank rather than the best one. I don't know, but this is my personal opinion, I am a fan of Russian arms but not their tanks, which Al-khalid is similar to.



There is noting newbi about this The Leopard is superior to the Al Khalid in every way, Russian Tanks are good with the right training they got a bad reputation mainly due to the Egypt, Syria, Iraq do to the the poorly crews and Monkey Models they were downgraded tanks, now if you compare the Egypt, Syria, Iraq to the former warsaw pact countries they would give NATO a run for their money, don't ever base russian tanks off arab failures.


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## RazPaK

Shahin Vatani said:


> LOOL you showing clips from 10 years ago!!! Asian football has gotten 100X better since then. Players like Kagawa, Ansarifard and Djeparov would dance all around your German reject team!!!



I think Turks are very good team because they got more exposure to world class teams.

Also I have watched clips of Iranian football, and I have to say I'm impressed.

Ali Karimi, and Ali Daei are both a pleasure to watch.

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## Armstrong

NeutralCitizen said:


> There is noting newbi about this The Leopard is superior to the Al Khalid in every way, Russian Tanks are good with the right training they got a bad reputation mainly due to the Egypt, Syria, Iraq do to the the poorly crews and Monkey Models they were downgraded tanks, now if you compare the Egypt, Syria, Iraq to the former warsaw pact countries they would give NATO a run for their money, don't ever base russian tanks off *arab failures*.



Aren't you an Arab yourself ?


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## Shahin Vatani

RazPaK said:


> I think Turks are very good team because they got more exposure to world class teams.
> 
> Also I have watched clips of Iranian football, and I have to say I'm impressed.
> 
> Ali Karimi, and Ali Daei are both a pleasure to watch.



Thanks bro, this is our new Ali Daei. Was born in the same city, he may go to Germany this summer. Only 22 years old.

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## Armstrong

RazPaK said:


> I think Turks are very good team because they got more exposure to world class teams.
> 
> Also I have watched clips of Iranian football, and I have to say I'm impressed.
> 
> Ali Karimi, and Ali Daei are both a pleasure to watch.



I was reading up on the Pakistan Football Team and it turns out that the first competitive international match that we ever played was against Iran in 1950 (I think !) but we lost 5-1 !


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## BLACKEAGLE

NeutralCitizen said:


> There is noting newbi about this The Leopard is superior to the Al Khalid in every way, Russian Tanks are good with the right training they got a bad reputation mainly due to the Egypt, Syria, Iraq do to the the poorly crews and Monkey Models they were downgraded tanks, now if you compare the Egypt, Syria, Iraq to the former warsaw pact countries they would give NATO a run for their money, don't ever base russian tanks off arab failures.



Russian tanks are inferior to western tanks in everything. Protection, crew safety, mobility, servivablity, gun fire power and range electronics and almost every thing.


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## Armstrong

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> GIDS helped turkey on the armour of Altay MBT.... with ToT etc.



What the heck is 'GIDS' ? Laalay !


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## BLACKEAGLE

Armstrong said:


> Aren't you an Arab yourself ?



No he isn't.

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## NeutralCitizen

Armstrong said:


> Aren't you an Arab yourself ?



I'm and simply giving the truth now Iraq poor military saddam had 3000-3500 T-72's downgrade and they were all destroyed, same with both Syria and Egypt against the wars with Israel.



BLACKEAGLE said:


> No he isn't.



Ok OK I'm african-Mongol fair ?

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Armstrong said:


> What the heck is 'GIDS' ? Laalay !



*Global industrial and defence solutions:
*
http://www.google.com.pk/url?sa=t&r...xPyvDQ&usg=AFQjCNEIIziTWxTRirGvBMMjnULNXtnBgA


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## NeutralCitizen

BLACKEAGLE said:


> Russian tanks are inferior to western tanks in everything. Protection, crew safety, mobility, servivablity, gun fire power and range electronics and almost every thing.



Yes right now correct But I was comparing the western and Soviet tanks of the 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's the best tank russia has is a T-90 which is an upgraded T-72.


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## Hack-Hook

thefreesyrian said:


> About the subject, im not sure abt this coz we hear abt the leopard buying since the eighties. But it will add a considerable punch to the saudi land forces, able to repel any iranian iraki attack.



well have you ever considered the only country they ever gonna these tanks against is UAE , by the way our attack if happen would not be through the land it would be an Amphibious attack .and Iraq attack with what ? attacking another country is not Intifada that they use stone.


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## BLACKEAGLE

NeutralCitizen said:


> I'm and simply giving the truth now Iraq poor military saddam had 3000-3500 T-72's downgrade and they were all destroyed, same with both Syria and Egypt against the wars with Israel.
> 
> 
> 
> Ok OK I'm african-Mongol fair ?



They were without even night/day vision equipment, they weren't downgraded but rather old. Iraq followed Soviet military school that is in favor of quantity over quality which miserably failed many times. Anyway, I think taking Iraq as a model of arms inferiority/superiority is a mistake, military balance between coalition and Iraq was absolutely in favor of the coalition.


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## Armstrong

BLACKEAGLE said:


> Russian tanks are inferior to western tanks in everything. Protection, crew safety, mobility, servivablity, gun fire power and range electronics and almost every thing.



What thats not true ! The Russkies were the first ones to use 'ERAs' on their Tanks ! Because the T-72s were smaller and consequently less heavier than their NATO counterparts they had a very good weight to power ratio and hence a fairly good mobility ! The Russian Drozd Active Protection System was the world's first (I think) in this area and its successor the Arena and the Shotra 1 are pretty good too ! Additionally the Nakidka RAM camouflage is pretty good too ! In terms of firepower the Russian tanks use the same 125mm with just about the same rounds ! I think maybe in terms of electronics the West might have an edge but I'm sure the Russians are pretty well set in other areas ! What do you think ?


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## NeutralCitizen

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> It uses the same transmission as lecrec,1200hp engine,hunter killer,UAV connectivity,Sat navigation system,anti tank laser guided missiles like modified Kombat and red sparrow,has catherine,sagem etc FCS,72/KMPH speed,Fires DU,HEAT,HE APSFDS ETC ....And even on specs its far more superior to the russian T-90...so if a T-90 is good enough our AK is probably a few times better!
> 
> 
> So i say again read tht thread before making foolish statements!



T-90 is a diff topic, Since you said the Al Khalid has many of the features the leclerc has the UAE an Arab Country uses the Leclerc why haven't they they bought the Al Khalid which has the same features as you say and would help a fellow muslim brother country out ?


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## Hack-Hook

BLACKEAGLE said:


> And do you know what does Leopard 2A7 mean? it's just the most powerful tank has ever been produced...



some people said that about Merkava


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## BLACKEAGLE

NeutralCitizen said:


> Yes right now correct But I was comparing the western and Soviet tanks of the 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's the best tank russia has is a T-90 which is an upgraded T-72.



Even 70s Soviet tanks didn't reach the western ones. Soviets exaggerated their real capabilities.


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## Armstrong

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> *Global industrial and defence solutions:
> *
> http://www.google.com.pk/url?sa=t&r...xPyvDQ&usg=AFQjCNEIIziTWxTRirGvBMMjnULNXtnBgA



Yaar where does it say that we collaborated with the Turks with respect to the Armor (ERAs) ?


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## NeutralCitizen

BLACKEAGLE said:


> They were without even night/day vision equipment, they weren't downgraded but rather old. Iraq followed Soviet military school that is in favor of quantity over quality which miserably failed many times. Anyway, I think taking Iraq as a model of arms inferiority/superiority is a mistake, military balance between coalition and Iraq was absolutely in favor of the coalition.



Wrong both Egypt and Syria had night vision equipment, no the arabs were given monkey weaponry by the USSR because they didn't trust the more decent and advanced models would fall in western hands, Iraqi military lost much of it's decent equipment against the war with iran so they had to gotten downgraded T-72's which were only to last a couple of months, the soviets had quality weaponry they saved it for themselves = Iraq lost due to a combination of downgraded weapons and poor training.


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## Desert Fox

LOL@ Pakistani members trying to desperately market the Al-Khalid to the Arab on this thread.

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## NeutralCitizen

BLACKEAGLE said:


> Even 70s Soviet tanks didn't reach the western ones. Soviets exaggerated their real capabilities.



The Models the Soviets kept for themselves were the best even par with western tanks those shared with the warsaw pact, again it comes right back down to downgraded old T-72's vs brand new Abrams, Challengers used in the liberation of Kuwait. the iraqi's even dug holes and used put their tanks inside and waited because they were so poor trained.



Desert Fox said:


> LOL@ Pakistani members trying to desperately market the Al-Khalid to the Arab on this thread.



Desert Fox Finally a voice of reason.

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## BLACKEAGLE

NeutralCitizen said:


> Wrong both Egypt and Syria had night vision equipment, no the arabs were given monkey weaponry by the USSR because they didn't trust the more decent and advanced models would fall in western hands, Iraqi military lost much of it's decent equipment against the war with iran so they had to gotten downgraded T-72's which were only to last a couple of months, the soviets had quality weaponry they saved it for themselves = Iraq lost due to a combination of downgraded weapons and poor training.



Almost most Soviet arms in foreign countries are export versions not only Iraqis. Soviet night vision equipment were not as good as the western ones. So, they got hit before they even saw the enemy.


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## Armstrong

Desert Fox said:


> LOL@ Pakistani members trying to desperately market the Al-Khalid to the Arab on this thread.


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## NeutralCitizen

BLACKEAGLE said:


> Almost most Soviet arms in foreign countries are export versions not only Iraqis. Soviet night vision equipment were not as good as the western ones. So, they got hit before they even see the enemy.



The Warsaw pact got the better models of the weapons, India, Vietnam and several others, the main problem is with arab military is the lack of training, the terrible coordination, an no good intelligence.


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## BLACKEAGLE

JEskandari said:


> some people said that about Merkava



I said it's the best tank in the world and not immune to modern ATGM, there is a difference my friend.


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## NeutralCitizen

Black Eagle I will even tell you why the arabs lost 1948 war and palestine the same problems they had in 1948 they have today. 

1. In 1948 the Israelis had more soldiers then the Arabs.
2. Israel united all it's groups under a single coordination, the Arabs had their own ambitions for example, Jordan which fought Israel only wanted the West Bank and Jerusalem so they fought a defensive war the Israelis didn't have to worry about the Jordanians while fighting Egypt.
3. Jordan had the most modern units in the 1948 also commanded by British which is why they managed to hold on to the west bank.
4. it's not a David vs Goliath when the Arabs first came Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Saudi Arabia they had at the beginning around 20,000- 25,000 troops Israel had 40,000-45,000 troops.
5. the Arabs never had any coordination, Lebanon fought very little, Syria had it's own ambitions to the North, Egypt had it's own in the Negev etc etc the Arabs had no united command they didn't trust each other.

I have more but I will stop their with 1948, Arabs lost due to :Arabs had fewer troops, no coordination, no unification, own ambitions they did not trust one another.

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## Hack-Hook

NeutralCitizen said:


> So it's superior to Abrams, leclerc , leopard, challenger. if it is why aren't the gulf buying this superior tank over the current western tanks.



I heard there is a guy named Bandar bin Sultan that only let the ones who pay him most sell ,weapon to KSA


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## BLACKEAGLE

NeutralCitizen said:


> The Warsaw pact got the better models of the weapons, India, Vietnam and several others, the main problem is with arab military *is the lack of training, the terrible coordination, an no good intelligence.*



lack of training....AGREE
the terrible coordination.......AGREE
no good intelligence.....replace it with no good education.

Anyway, that was 30 years ago, it's different now.


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## NeutralCitizen

BLACKEAGLE said:


> lack of training....AGREE
> the terrible coordination.......AGREE
> no good intelligence.....replace it with no good education.
> 
> Anyway, that was 30 years ago, it's different now.



incorrect both the gulf war 2003 and libya showed it. refer to my post on how you lost palestine in 1948.


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## BLACKEAGLE

NeutralCitizen said:


> Black Eagle I will even tell you why the arabs lost 1948 war and palestine the same problems they had in 1948 they have today.
> 
> 1. In 1948 the Israelis had more soldiers then the Arabs.
> 2. Israel united all it's groups under a single coordination, the Arabs had their own ambitions for example, Jordan which fought Israel only wanted the West Bank and Jerusalem so they fought a defensive war the Israelis didn't have to worry about the Jordanians while fighting Egypt.
> 3. Jordan had the most modern units in the 1948 also commanded by British which is why they managed to hold on to the west bank.
> 4. it's not a David vs Goliath when the Arabs first came Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Saudi Arabia they had at the beginning around 20,000- 25,000 troops Israel had 40,000-45,000 troops.
> 5. the Arabs never had any coordination, Lebanon fought very little, Syria had it's own ambitions to the North, Egypt had it's own in the Negev etc etc the Arabs had no united command they didn't trust each other.
> 
> I have more but I will stop their with 1948, Arabs lost due to :Arabs had fewer troops, no coordination, no unification, own ambitions they did not trust one another.



Yes, mostly agree.


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## lem34

Armstrong said:


> I saw the Palestine vs Pakistan football match here in Lahore last year ! We lost 2-1 and to watch it, especially after a season of watching the Premier League, was painful to say the least ! Our team could probably be owned by some 3rd tier team like Leeds United ! Damn and to think that we've got some exceptional players in Pakistan; I've played with a couple !



You cheeky Butty that's my team look where I am from. But in laws are from Barcelona and that is who my boys and wife support. Man Barcelona are a class act at the moment. my brother in law plays for a second division team in Spain. Its tough competition there.

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## NeutralCitizen

BLACKEAGLE said:


> Yes, mostly agree.



So you agree jordan fought for it's own ambitions ? no united command no cooperation what good is mass amounts of troops if you cannot train them well or mobilize them.


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## BLACKEAGLE

NeutralCitizen said:


> incorrect both the gulf war 2003 and libya showed it. refer to my post on how you lost palestine in 1948.



Man, I need allot of time to refute this, but I am not in the mood now. you can't take Iraq neither Libya as a model for this.


----------



## NeutralCitizen

BLACKEAGLE said:


> Man, I need allot of time to refute this, but I am not in the mood now. you can't take Iraq neither Libya as a model for this.



Look I'm trying to have a decent discussion with you, right now no arab country can fight israel or the usa because you also lack one thing arabs had in the past a superpower backing you with equipment the closet thing I see to this is Russia and China but no arab country has a very close relationship with them except syria.


----------



## BLACKEAGLE

NeutralCitizen said:


> So you agree jordan fought for it's own ambitions ? no united command no cooperation what good is mass amounts of troops if you cannot train them well or mobilize them.



Don't you think saving the largest part of Palestine is more than enough for the tiny Jordan?!

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## lem34

Desert Fox said:


> LOL@ Pakistani members trying to desperately market the Al-Khalid to the Arab on this thread.



Not so yaar. The concept that I was trying to push is for Muslims to count our countries have to produce weapons themselves and be self reliant. Out of us lot the only countries that have sufficient population to have a good industrial base is Turkey Iran or Pakistan. imo Arab countries may be Egypt. Now these countries are all making progress in weaponry. I am happy whenever I hear Iran or Turkey make advances even though I am Pakistani. So it would be nice if Muslims could buy if at all possible from each other and cooperate. Man I would rather jobs go to Turkey rather than Germany. Is that such a bad thing as to have some on here fight and ignore or look down on what I say or push it as self serving for my own country??

We Pakistanis and Iranians have experience that when we are in the middle of a war supplies being cut off. Buying weapons make us dependent and reliant on third parties. I would rather rely on Turks Iranians or Arabs than Americans or Germans

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## NeutralCitizen

BLACKEAGLE said:


> Don't you think saving the largest part of Palestine is more than enough for the tiny Jordan?!



But you fought to keep it as apart of jordan not palestine But I will give you props you did better then Syria and Lebanon under british command and the most modern units.


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## Armstrong

Aryan_B said:


> *You cheeky Butty that's my team look where I am from*. But in laws are from Barcelona and that is who my boys and wife support. Man Barcelona are a class act at the moment. my brother in law plays for a second division team in Spain. Its tough competition there.



I know...I know do you think I didn't read that !  Yeah I like Barca too but my heart's set on Liverpool eik din Anfield ka Hajj karnee zaroor jaoon ga !


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## NeutralCitizen

Any Plans from the Saudis or GCC on building their own tank ?


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## lem34

Armstrong said:


> I know...I know do you think I didn't read that !  Yeah I like Barca too but my heart's set on Liverpool eik din Anfield ka Hajj karnee zaroor jaoon ga !



its not that far from me. but you have to go past Man U and city and Everton to get there. lol. One day visit me and we will go. In UK after Leeds lol. I quite like Arsenel more cos of their a manager who I think is a class act. Anyways have a good one guys Im off to chill out

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## Ottoman-Turk

Galatasaray

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## BLACKEAGLE

NeutralCitizen said:


> But you fought to keep it as apart of jordan not palestine But I will give you props you did better then Syria and Lebanon under british command and the most modern units.



The Jordanian forces were probably *the best trained* of all combatants. Other combatant forces lacked the ability to make strategic decisions and tactical maneuvers,[76] as evidenced by positioning the fourth regiment at Latrun, which was abandoned by other combatants before the arrival of the Jordanian forces. In the later stages of the war, Latrun proved to be of extreme importance, and a decisive factor for Jerusalem's fate.

1948 Arab

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## Armstrong

BLACKEAGLE said:


> Don't you think saving the largest part of Palestine is more than enough for the tiny Jordan?!



*BlackEagle* yaar ! Why didn't Jordan and Saudi Arabia enter into a JV to upgrade your respective M60 A3s to Phoenix and above standard ? Perhaps even bring on board the Turks with their own upgrade program of their M60s with the help of the Israelis ! 

Mate, this is the gist of our argument ! No one is making a sales pitch here for the Al-Khalids or the Altays we're just saying - We've got the potential, we clearly have the need, we do have convergent interests (the Saudis, the Turks and the Jordanians have a large number of M60s in their inventory) and we've got the capital too ! Why then do we not utilize out god given potentials and work with each other ?

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## NeutralCitizen

BLACKEAGLE said:


> The Jordanian forces were probably *the best trained* of all combatants. Other combatant forces lacked the ability to make strategic decisions and tactical maneuvers,[76] as evidenced by positioning the fourth regiment at Latrun, which was abandoned by other combatants before the arrival of the Jordanian forces. In the later stages of the war, Latrun proved to be of extreme importance, and a decisive factor for Jerusalem's fate.
> 
> 1948 Arab



They were with British commanding as well you did better then the Israeli's at that time.


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## Desert Fox

Aryan_B said:


> Bro I think Turkey and Pakistan may have done some work on cruise missile together I think I read somewhere it made me so happy to hear
> *
> Guys please can we stop fighting on this thread there is no need for it*



The Armor on the Turkish Altay is of Pakistani Origin. Pakistani Engineers provided the Turks the armor technology back in 06 when there were rumors of a Pak-Turk JV in Al-Khalid II project.

"A few months prior to IDEAS 2006, the Pakistan Army and Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT) announced the development of the Al Khalid II Main Battle Tank (MBT). The Al Khalid II is poised to become the Pakistan Army's backbone main battle tank from 2012; thus replacing 1200 obsolete Chinese T-59 and 300 T-85IIAP. Not much is known about this tank, but it is reported that the Al Khalid II is a very extensive upgrade of the current Al Khalid. Other reports suggest that it will be an entirely new tank that is based on Western designs. *Turkish press reported that a Pakistani armor firm will participate in the Turkey's new generation tank project.* Turkey and Pakistan have signed many memorandums of understanding in various defence-related fields. Given that many Pakistani firms have signed joint agreements with Western firms, it is possible that a considerable part of the Al Khalid II's design will be influenced from the Turkish tank design. Nonetheless, the new generation tank is expected to form the backbone of the Pakistan Army's tank force; in the long-term"


*EDIT:*

Also this:

:Undersecretariat for Defense industries website announced that Pakistan will join Turkish MBT project to develop state of the art Turkish Battle Tank.

After Otokar, FNSS, MKEK, ASELSAN and HAVELSAN, *the Pakistani firm producing the Al Khalid MBT will transfer the technological support for the production of advanced passive armor.*

The Al Khalid, known for it's unique feature of automatic target tracking system used by the Tank is from the French MBT Leclerc. No other tanks have this feature. I also know that about 100 delegation large, Turkish engineers, politicians and businessmen traveled to Pakistan to discuss about defensive cooperation.

It is clear that Turkey would develop it's MBT with Pakistani assistance."

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...im-mbt-2000-information-pool.html#post2077418

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## NeutralCitizen

Mosamania and BlackEagle whats your opinion right on the kurdish problem ? the kurds want land from Syria, Iraq, Turkey and Iran and right now the next civil war in Iraq could between the kurds and arabs do to the oil rich regions and autonomy the kurds right now have a better trained military then Iraq.


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## Skorpian

NeutralCitizen said:


> Look I'm trying to have a decent discussion with you, right now no arab country can fight israel or *the usa* because you also lack one thing arabs had in the past a superpower backing you with equipment the closet thing I see to this is Russia and China but no arab country has a very close relationship with them except syria.


Not a single country in the world can fight the USA in a conventional war, Russia and China possibly but any other country, in conventional war no way.


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## Armstrong

NeutralCitizen said:


> Mosamania and BlackEagle whats your opinion right on the kurdish problem ? the kurds want land from Syria, Iraq, Turkey and Iran and right now the next civil war in Iraq could between the kurds and arabs do to the oil rich regions and autonomy the kurds right now have a better trained military then Iraq.



Where the foOk did the Kurds come from ?

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## NeutralCitizen

Armstrong said:


> Where the foOk did the Kurds come from ?



the mountain turks in the middle east ? you know turkey has been at war with them for a while, they got 1/4 of their dream in iraq with Iraqi kurdistan but they want the whole kurdistan with syria going in flames likely syrian kurdistan this will embloden the kurds for iranian and turkish kurdistan they also have guerilla movements pkk and pjak and the kurds-iraq problem is getting worse due to oil the kurds have their own army and iraq army isn't a match for them.


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## Skorpian

NeutralCitizen said:


> the mountain turks in the middle east ? you know turkey has been at war with them for a while, they got 1/4 of their dream in iraq with Iraqi kurdistan but they want the whole kurdistan with syria going in flames likely syrian kurdistan this will embloden the kurds for iranian and turkish kurdistan they also have guerilla movements pkk and pjak and the kurds-iraq problem is getting worse due to oil the kurds have their own army and iraq army isn't a match for them.


I think he actually meant "where the fook did the topic of kurds come from?"

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## NeutralCitizen

Skorpian said:


> I think he actually meant "where the fook did the topic of kurds come from?"



The next few wars in the middle east ? the issues with Israel Iran Syria aren't the only problem.


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## BLACKEAGLE

Armstrong said:


> *BlackEagle* yaar ! Why didn't Jordan and Saudi Arabia enter into a JV to upgrade your respective M60 A3s to Phoenix and above standard ? Perhaps even bring on board the Turks with their own upgrade program of their M60s with the help of the Israelis !
> 
> Mate, this is the gist of our argument ! No one is making a sales pitch here for the Al-Khalids or the Altays we're just saying - We've got the potential, we clearly have the need, we do have convergent interests (the Saudis, the Turks and the Jordanians have a large number of M60s in their inventory) and we've got the capital too ! Why then do we not utilize out god given potentials and work with each other ?


There were plans to upgrade Saudi M-60 tank arsenal with Jordanian upgrade, bet nothing has taken place. I don't know why actually. KSA has long been solely interested in airforce and ignored acquiring neither upgrading her existing tanks. I heard they are going through moderation process in KSA. For Pak, there were allot of joint exercises between Pakistan and Jordan, but don't know about joint manufacturing projects. Anyway, Pakistani tanks are close to eastern tanks while Jordanian ones are western. They are different.

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## Mosamania

It is funny watching you lot whine about why "No co-operation" between Pakistan or turkey. Well Al-Tay is heavily derived from the Leopard 2s. We want the Leopards because they have the best tech in the world right now. We are also not signing a single defense deal since 2006 without ToT.

The rule is simple "If we can't make it after buying it we don't want it". From the Typhoon to the leopard we are following this policy. Sure it will be all nice and rosy for Muslim countries to work together and be like a peach however this doesn't work in the real world. The Land Forces strategic command has a certain set of requirements that even the modern M1A2 didn't pass and had to be upgraded to M1A2S standards to hopefully meet some of them. 

We need something that works in all of KSA environments from our rigid extremely mountainous regions of the west amd south to our vast burning deserts of east. We need something that will link up to our military satellites. We need something that can stop more than 1200mm AT shells. We need something that puts crew safety to the highest of standards. We need something that is in the class of heavy battle tanks of 55+ tonnage. We need something that is able to cross our big country is short notice. We need something that can go for a long distance without refueling. Even the T-90 was so heavily tested until it's engine broke down. And above all else we need something with ToT and full spare parts production license.

The Leopard 2s fits our requirements like a glove. It has been our choice for some time now that a factory was built on the Leopard2 specifications already. Helping Muslim brothers is so good and all but requirements on the battlefield to ensure a victory over invaders or the likes iand the safety of our soldiers and people is even more important.

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## BLACKEAGLE

Oh, and BTW. Why you Saudi didn't aprove upgrading your tanks with the Jordanian version? Hah?










If I don't get a reply within 5 mins from you fat Saudi, I swear to God, I will break sth...

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## Mosamania

BLACKEAGLE said:


> There were plans to upgrade Saudi M-60 tank arsenal with Jordanian upgrade, bet nothing has taken place. I don't know why actually. KSA has long been solely interested in airforce and ignored acquiring neither upgrading her existing tanks. I heard they are going through moderation process in KSA. For Pak, there were allot of joint exercises between Pakistan and Jordan, but don't know about joint manufacturing projects. Anyway, Pakistani tanks are close to eastern tanks while Jordanian ones are western. They are different.



We did an indigiouns upgrade of our M60 tanks this year. I have posted the upgrade on a number of threads here.



BLACKEAGLE said:


> Oh, and BTW. Why you Saudi didn't aprove upgrading you&#1602; tanks with the Jordanian version? Hah?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If I don't get a reply within 5 mins from you fat Saudi, I swear to God, I will break sth...



Oh don't get me started on how fat jordanians are now >_>

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## Desert Fox

Armstrong said:


> *BlackEagle* yaar ! Why didn't Jordan and Saudi Arabia enter into a JV to upgrade your respective M60 A3s to Phoenix and above standard ? Perhaps even bring on board the Turks with their own upgrade program of their M60s with the help of the Israelis !
> 
> Mate, this is the gist of our argument ! No one is making a sales pitch here for the Al-Khalids or the Altays we're just saying - We've got the potential, we clearly have the need, we do have convergent interests (the Saudis, the Turks and the Jordanians have a large number of M60s in their inventory) and we've got the capital too ! Why then do we not utilize out god given potentials and work with each other ?



What's the point of upgrading the M60's when you can just purchase a Tank leagues ahead of that outdated machine? M60's lack crew protection not to mention its main armor is homogeneous steel armor while Abrams and modern Western MBT's have mostly composite armor with steel shell and ERA as optional add on armor.

The other day i was watching this documentary, watch from 9:50 onwards:

Anatomy of an Abrams Tank [HQ] P2 - YouTube


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## Armstrong

Mosamania said:


> We did an indigiouns upgrade of our M60 tanks this year. I have posted the upgrade on a number of threads here.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh don't get me started on how fat jordanians are now >_>




Haaanhh ! I can still out fat either of you guys ! 


Oh wait..that didn't come out right !

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## BLACKEAGLE

Mosamania said:


> We did an indigiouns upgrade of our M60 tanks this year. I have posted the upgrade on a number of threads here.



Oh, I didn't know that I am that frightful, I got a reply at the same second my post was posted. Anyway, don't do it again. Capish!

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## Armstrong

Desert Fox said:


> What's the point of upgrading the M60's when you can just purchase a Tank leagues ahead of that outdated machine? M60's lack crew protection not to mention its main armor is homogeneous steel armor while Abrams and modern Western MBT's have mostly composite armor with steel shell and ERA as optional add on armor.
> 
> The other day i was watching this documentary, watch from 9:50 onwards:
> 
> Anatomy of an Abrams Tank [HQ] P2 - YouTube



Why you do it ? Beats me...! But I'm sure the Israelis must have known why when they went for the Sabras ! I'm sure the Turks and as *BlackEagle* mentioned, the Jordanians, must have realized the benefit of doing that !



BLACKEAGLE said:


> Oh, I didn't know that I am that frightful, I got a reply at the same second my post was posted. Anyway, don't do it again. Capish!



So my Lord, does he live or does he.......!

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## BLACKEAGLE

BLACKEAGLE said:


> Oh, I didn't know that I am that frightful, I got a reply at the same second my post was posted. Anyway, don't do it again. *Capish*!



Oh Mosa, to avoid any misinterpretation, it's not &#1603;&#1576;&#1588; in Arabic, it's &#1603;&#1576;&#1610;&#1588; in turkey which means: agreed?


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## Desert Fox

Armstrong said:


> Why you do it ? Beats me...! But I'm sure the Israelis must have known why when they went for the Sabras ! I'm sure the Turks and as *BlackEagle* mentioned, the Jordanians, must have realized the benefit of doing that !



Well, we're talking about the Saudis,. not Jordanians or israelis. Israelis are innovators, give them a old soviet T-55 and they'll make it into something very useful, example is their APC/infantry support vehicle built on captured T-55 chassis, that's the cost effective method, but it seems the Saudis want the best of the best ASAP.


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## Mosamania

Armstrong said:


> Why you do it ? Beats me...! But I'm sure the Israelis must have known why when they went for the Sabras ! I'm sure the Turks and as *BlackEagle* mentioned, the Jordanians, must have realized the benefit of doing that !



The M60 can still serve as a second line battle tank not a main battle tanks. The strategy is derived from the military doctrine of the nation using them. For example Saudi Arabia have been using the Pakistsni military doctrine from the 1970s until 2006 (by the way 2006 is the year of the second Saudi military founding as I like to call it where everything changed which is why purchasing spree and everything to accommodate the change) when we have written our own military doctrine.

In the terms of conventional war the western doctrine says in a nutshell "obliterate by air and clean up by land" (that is why lesser tanks in western armies compared to eastern ones). Our doctrine kind of follows the same lines but with some tweaks considering most our immediate enemies rely on quantity over quality. Not to mention asymmetric warfare which forces land forces to be more engaged in the fighting than the conventional type. This aspect brings the importance of the second line M60s into importance.

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## BLACKEAGLE

Armstrong said:


> Why you do it ? Beats me...! But I'm sure the Israelis must have known why when they went for the Sabras ! I'm sure the Turks and as *BlackEagle* mentioned, the Jordanians, must have realized the benefit of doing that !
> 
> 
> 
> So my Lord, does he live or does he.......!




........................................

You know what does this sign means; anyway.... it means do it now...


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## Mosamania

Desert Fox said:


> Well, we're talking about the Saudis,. not Jordanians or israelis. Israelis are innovators, give them a old soviet T-55 and they'll make it into something very useful, example is their APC/infantry support vehicle built on captured T-55 chassis, that's the cost effective method, but it seems the Saudis want the best of the best ASAP.



If you are talking pre(2006) then maybe. But now we are converting our M113s into IFVs based on our requirements.



BLACKEAGLE said:


> ........................................
> 
> You know what does this sign means; anyway.... it means do it now...



Am I being judged in abstantia??? oh you guys are going to get it now.

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## Armstrong

Desert Fox said:


> Well, we're talking about the Saudis,. not Jordanians or israelis. Israelis are innovators, give them a old soviet T-55 and they'll make it into something very useful, example is their APC/infantry support vehicle built on captured T-55 chassis, that's the cost effective method, but it seems the Saudis want the best of the best ASAP.



But *Erwin* bachei the Principle still stands ! The M60s might have had the potential to be upgraded till they're a formidable tank much like our T-55s were upgraded to the Al-Zarrar standard which in turn used the T-80UDs as a yardstick to go by !


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## BLACKEAGLE

Desert Fox said:


> What's the point of upgrading the M60's when you can just purchase a Tank leagues ahead of that outdated machine? M60's lack crew protection not to mention its main armor is homogeneous steel armor while Abrams and modern Western MBT's have mostly composite armor with steel shell and ERA as optional add on armor.
> 
> The other day i was watching this documentary, watch from 9:50 onwards:


http://www.military-today.com/tanks/m60_phoenix.htm

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## Armstrong

BLACKEAGLE said:


> ........................................
> 
> You know what does this sign means; anyway.... it means do it now...



I regret to inform you my Lord ! He stole one of your personal BMWs and he ran off with it into the Iraqi desert where our intelligence reports suggest that he told the villagers of a small settlement that he was the Second coming of Saddam and unless they gave him a bride and made him their leader he'd use mustard gas over them ! We've got reason to assume that he's married to three women and a she-mule and he's retired for good but one of our informants tells us that his other 3 wives complain that he likes to spend more time with the she-mule then with them ! 

What are your orders ? Do we save the Mule or not ?


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## Mosamania

Armstrong said:


> But *Erwin* bachei the Principle still stands ! The M60s might have had the potential to be upgraded till they're a formidable tank much like our T-55s were upgraded to the Al-Zarrar standard which in turn used the T-80UDs as a yardstick to go by !












Showing the Saudi made equipment that were used in the upgrade:















Armstrong said:


> I regret to inform you my Lord ! He stole one of your personal BMWs and he ran off with it into the Iraqi desert where our intelligence reports suggest that he told the villagers of a small settlement that he was the Second coming of Saddam and unless they gave him a bride and made him their leader he'd use mustard gas over them ! We've got reason to assume that he's married to three women and a she-mule and he's retired for good but one of our informants tells us that his other 3 wives complain that he likes to spend more time with the she-mule then them !



You fvck with my she-mule I faking fvck you up ya hear?

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## DESERT FIGHTER

M60s are a gone case...


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## Bratva

Armstrong said:


> What the heck is 'GIDS' ? Laalay !



New name of KRL

Pakistan, Turkey and the Babur Cruise Missile

Pakistan, Turkey and the Babur Cruise Missile

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## DESERT FIGHTER

BLACKEAGLE said:


> Oh, and BTW. Why you Saudi didn't aprove upgrading your tanks with the Jordanian version? Hah?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If I don't get a reply within 5 mins from you fat Saudi, I swear to God, I will break sth...



wierd but beautiful..

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## BLACKEAGLE

Armstrong said:


> I regret to inform you my Lord ! He stole one of your personal BMWs and he ran off with it into the Iraqi desert where our intelligence reports suggest that he told the villagers of a small settlement that he was the Second coming of Saddam and unless they gave him a bride and made him their leader he'd use mustard gas over them ! We've got reason to assume that he's married to three women and a she-mule and he's retired for good but one of our informants tells us that his other 3 wives complain that he likes to spend more time with the she-mule then with them !
> 
> What are your orders ? Do we save the Mule or not ?



WTF!




You incompetent soldier! is't there an end to your fiascos? You couldn't carry out chopping a head&#1567;! someone's head shall be rolling in front of me, either yours or his...

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## Armstrong

BLACKEAGLE said:


> WTF!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You incompetent soldier! is't there an end to your fiascos? You couldn't carry out chopping a head&#1567;! someone's head shall be rolling in front of me, either yours or his...



Ummmh ! My Lord, I hear the Arab Spring coming to Our Lands and I'm in the mood of supporting the People, do you still want my head ?

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## Mosamania

BLACKEAGLE said:


> WTF!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You incompetent soldier! is't there an end to your fiascos? You couldn't carry out chopping a head&#1567;! someone's head shall be rolling in front of me, either yours or his...



His his... Definitely his. He failed you you shouldn't stand for that for a second. I ammhaving fun with my mule and he is sitting there doing nothing. Shameful behavior. 



Armstrong said:


> Ummmh ! My Lord, I hear the Arab Spring coming to Our Lands and I'm in the mood of supporting the People, do you still want my head ?



In Arab dictator logic he wants your head more now

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## DESERT FIGHTER

U guys can always lend my Great Grandfathers sword tht i inherited.

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## Desert Fox

Armstrong said:


> But *Erwin* bachei the Principle still stands ! The M60s might have had the potential to be upgraded till they're a formidable tank much like our T-55s were upgraded to the Al-Zarrar standard which in turn used the T-80UDs as a yardstick to go by !



Well, i did say that was the *cost effective method*. IMHO, if Pakistan had a much better option than those Al-Zarrar's i highly doubt we would have went for that upgrade, we only went for the upgradation because we lacked enough funds to produce Al-Khalids en mass to replace all T-55's/59's/69's.

Same can be said about M60's, Saudis are going for 800 Leopards, and Mosa mentioned the M60's will be in reserve for second line Battle Tank, but when you have Leopard 2A7's and M1 Tanks as front line Tanks, those M60's would never see action.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Desert Fox said:


> Well, i did say that was the *cost effective method*. IMHO, if Pakistan had a much better option than those Al-Zarrar's i highly doubt we would have went for that upgrade, we only went for the upgradation because we lacked enough funds to produce Al-Khalids en mass to replace all T-55's/59's/69's.
> 
> Same can be said about M60's, Saudis are going for 800 Leopards, and Mosa mentioned the M60's will be in reserve for second line Battle Tank, but when you have Leopard 2A7's and M1 Tanks as front line Tanks, *those M60's would never see action*.



Have they ever won any war? infact have they are gotten into one? nope!


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## Armstrong

Mosamania said:


> His his... Definitely his. He failed you you shouldn't stand for that for a second. I ammhaving fun with my mule and he is sitting there doing nothing. Shameful behavior.
> 
> 
> 
> In Arab dictator logic he wants your head more now



Oh I'll deal with him later but for now,* Mosa* I'm coming for you : 






And your 4th wife :

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## Desert Fox

BLACKEAGLE said:


> M60 Phoenix Main Battle Tank | Military-Today.com



That is the Cost Effective way, but you can only upgrade a old frame to a certain extent and i believe M60 upgrade has reached its limits.


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## Mosamania

Desert Fox said:


> Well, i did say that was the *cost effective method*. IMHO, if Pakistan had a much better option than those Al-Zarrar's i highly doubt we would have went for that upgrade, we only went for the upgradation because we lacked enough funds to produce Al-Khalids en mass to replace all T-55's/59's/69's.
> 
> Same can be said about M60's, Saudis are going for 800 Leopards, and Mosa mentioned the M60's will be in reserve for second line Battle Tank, but when you have Leopard 2A7's and M1 Tanks as front line Tanks, those M60's would never see action.



Always have a plan B.

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## Armstrong

Desert Fox said:


> Well, i did say that was the *cost effective method*. IMHO, if Pakistan had a much better option than those Al-Zarrar's i highly doubt we would have went for that upgrade, we only went for the upgradation because we lacked enough funds to produce Al-Khalids en mass to replace all T-55's/59's/69's.
> 
> Same can be said about M60's, Saudis are going for 800 Leopards, and Mosa mentioned the M60's will be in reserve for second line Battle Tank, but when you have Leopard 2A7's and M1 Tanks as front line Tanks, those M60's would never see action.



Pray tell me...what better option ? I've gone through the Al-Zarrar and the Al-Khalid threads and there exists an unanimity amongst all informed posters that the Al-Zarrar was a cost-effective upgradation of the T-55s that brought them on par with the T-80UDs and the T-84 so that they can face off against the Indian upgraded T-72s and still fare better ! Its about threat perception ! We've got the Al-Khalids for their T-90s.


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## Mosamania

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Have they ever won any war? infact have they are gotten into one? nope!



Yes actually we have. First one was the unification of KSA won against Hashmite Kingdom and Britain. Second was Indo-Pakistani war of 1971 where our navy completed their operation with flying colors. Third was Khafji where we won against Iraq. Fourth was against Houthis who we also won against them and mobbed the floor with them.

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## Armstrong

Mosamania said:


> Yes actually we have. First one was the unification of KSA won against Hashmite Kingdom and Britain. *Second was Indo-Pakistani war of 1971 where our navy completed their operation with flying colors.* Third was Khafji where we won against Iraq. Fourth was against Houthis who we also won against them and mobbed the floor with them.



Tell me more about this bold part !


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## Desert Fox

BTW, Destroyed Al-Zarrar Tank, hit by multiple RPG's as well as IED's, and the crew still survived and the armor was never penetrated. The Crew had to ditch the Tank since it was disabled.




















How the Tank might have looked before the attack:








Armstrong said:


> Pray tell me...what better option ? I've gone through the Al-Zarrar and the Al-Khalid threads and there exists an unanimity amongst all informed posters that the Al-Zarrar was a cost-effective upgradation of the T-55s that brought them on par with the T-80UDs and the T-84 so that they can face off against the Indian upgraded T-72s and still fare better ! Its about threat perception ! We've got the Al-Khalids for their T-90s.



I agree, because in our theater of conflict neither side can completely replace its outdated models, therefore we improvise and innovate.

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## Mosamania

Armstrong said:


> Tell me more about this bold part !



Check Saudi Navy's Wikipedia page and see what is their first engagement. 

"Pakistan Navy had taken measures to safeguard East Pakistan naval assets since March 25, 1971. Pakistan Marine battalion under Captain Zamir[50] deployed 3 Naval Marine companies and a Naval platoon at Chittagong in November 1971, while the Marine base PNS Haider was established at Chittagong. Two Fast Gunboats were obtained from Royal Saudi Navy, but PNS Sadaqat and PNS Rifaqat were never deployed in East Pakistan. Pakistan Army increased security at bridges, ferries and ports, setting up numerous bunkers and strong points near these installations.The credit for the rescue of survivors of Khaibar and Muhafiz goes to the gunboat Sadaqat whose single handed efforts saved many lives. It would be recalled that this boat, sent from Saudi Arabia."

Unlike popular perception the Saudi boats were actually manned by Saudi personnel as well according to the Desert warrior book written by a Saudi ex-General.

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## Armstrong

^^^^ thats what I'm talking about,* Herr Commandant* !


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## Mosamania

Armstrong said:


> ^^^^ thats what I'm talking about,* Herr Commandant* !



Pakistan is our strategic ally. No matter how much Saudi haters here bash and curse and moan Saudi Arabia and Pakistsni will always be hand in hand especially in military. 

By the way did you guys know that Pakistani officers are the only ones other than Saudi officers allowed to command Saudi troops as per Saudi doctrine?? I don't know about Pakistsni doctrine but I think it is the same.

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## Desert Fox

Mosamania said:


> The M60 can still serve as a second line battle tank not a main battle tanks. The strategy is derived from the military doctrine of the nation using them. For example Saudi Arabia have been using the Pakistsni military doctrine from the 1970s until 2006 (by the way 2006 is the year of the second Saudi military founding as I like to call it where everything changed which is why purchasing spree and everything to accommodate the change) when we have written our own military doctrine.
> 
> In the terms of conventional war the western doctrine says in a nutshell "obliterate by air and clean up by land" (that is why lesser tanks in western armies compared to eastern ones). Our doctrine kind of follows the same lines but with some tweaks considering most our immediate enemies rely on quantity over quality. Not to mention asymmetric warfare which forces land forces to be more engaged in the fighting than the conventional type. *This aspect brings the importance of the second line M60s into importance.*



As a reserve Tank the M60 can play its role, but in an urban environment its a sitting duck IMO. Considering that the M1 and Leopard Tanks are relatively newer designs and incorporate the latest technologies as a result of the American experience in urban warfare during the Iraq war, therefore the latter two have a much greater chance in tackling asymmetric threats.


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## Mosamania

Desert Fox said:


> As a reserve Tank the M60 can play its role, but in an urban environment its a sitting duck IMO. Considering that the M1 and Leopard Tanks are relatively newer designs and incorporate the latest technologies as a result of the American experience in urban warfare during the Iraq war, therefore the latter two have a much greater chance in tackling asymmetric threats.



Without a doubt what you say is correct. However asymmetric threats require a larger field presence since intimidation psychology plays a big role in it. For example you can send 3 Leopards to hold on an area but you can send 2 leopards and 2 M60s and that will be even a bigger fear factor not to mention fire power against AK wielding individuals. 

Also you must take into account the uranium shells which can be fired from the M60s nozzle. This allows for a higher percentage of hit vs evade using the right formation.

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## Mosamania

Desert Fox said:


> Really?



Yeah really. That enagement was our first warfare engagement for our navy since it's inception in the 1950s.

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## BLACKEAGLE

Desert Fox said:


> BTW, Destroyed Al-Zarrar Tank, hit by multiple RPG's as well as IED's, and the crew still survived and the armor was never penetrated. The Crew had to ditch the Tank since it was disabled.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How the Tank looked before the attack:



Impressive... The ATs were RPG-7?

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## Armstrong

Desert Fox said:


> As a reserve Tank the M60 can play its role, but in an urban environment its a sitting duck IMO. Considering that the M1 and Leopard Tanks are relatively newer designs and incorporate the latest technologies as a result of the American experience in urban warfare during the Iraq war, therefore the latter two have a much greater chance in tackling asymmetric threats.



Mate don't you think that in an Urban environment an upgraded M60 would be an even better option because clearly in there you don't really need depleted UE shells or anything of the sort and even the 120 or 125mm gun would be an over-kill ! You can't really make use of much in the way of speed or mobility either so instead of concentrating on those things a dedicated M60 version can be produced armed with a 100-105mm gun with the rest of the attention given to 1) protection - whether as a Trophy like APS system or ERAs or an upgraded Chobham to protect against multiple hits. And 2) it can have a specialized role e.g as an uber protected troop carrier, an ambulance or for recon !


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## Desert Fox

Mosamania said:


> Without a doubt what you say is correct. However asymmetric threats require a larger field presence since intimidation psychology plays a big role in it. For example you can send 3 Leopards to hold on an area but you can send 2 leopards and 2 M60s and that will be even a bigger fear factor not to mention fire power against AK wielding individuals.


True, fear factor does play a role, however if you were to incorporate a well planned strategy as well then your method would make sense, but lets say the situation does not allow that. Your M60's aren't there or happen to be busy holding off enemy armor trying to outflank you and you have to make a breakthrough to prevent your forces from being cut off and the only option is to capture a village or town strategically located with a road network, your only hope is your Leo's who are in the vicinity of the operation?

It would make sense to go with Leo in such a situation since it is better prepared for urban conflict.



Mosamania said:


> Also you must take into account the uranium shells which can be fired from the M60s nozzle. This allows for a higher percentage of hit vs evade using the right formation.


Not a good idea, unless you want the people of that town, city, or village to die of cancer and their next generation totally destroyed.

IMO, such munitions are only to be used in open area not inhabited by civilian population.


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## Mosamania

Armstrong said:


> Mate don't you think that in an Urban environment an upgraded M60 would be an even better option because clearly in there you don't really need depleted UE shells or anything of the sort and even the 120 or 125mm gun would be an over-kill ! You can't really make use of much in the way of speed or mobility either so instead of concentrating on those things a dedicated M60 version can be produced armed with a 100-105mm gun with the rest of the attention given to 1) protection - whether as a Trophy like APS system or ERAs or an upgraded Chobham to protect against multiple hits. And 2) it can have a specialized role e.g as an uber protected troop carrier, an ambulance or for recon !



Who the hell uses tanks for recon these days?? Tanks in western doctrine are for holding ground. In eastern doctrine tanks are for invading. You don't recon with them unless you want to know if there is an enemy or not there by the tank not coming back.

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## Desert Fox

BLACKEAGLE said:


> Impressive... The ATs were RPG-7?



It was an engagement with the talibunnies in our hilly region. The Tank was hit by multiple RPG's at close range after it struck IED's laid in its path. The Tracks were damaged but the armor was never penetrated and the crew survived to tell the tale.

In the end the crew scuttled the Tank to prevent it from falling into terrorist hands.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

BLACKEAGLE said:


> Impressive... The ATs were RPG-7?


RPG-7s and IEDs.

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## Mosamania

Desert Fox said:


> True, fear factor does play a role, however if you were to incorporate a well planned strategy as well then your method would make sense, but lets say the situation does not allow that. Your M60's aren't there or happen to be busy holding off enemy armor trying to outflank you and you have to make a breakthrough to prevent your forces from being cut off and the only option is to capture a village or town strategically located with a road network, your only hope is your Leo's who are in the vicinity of the operation?
> 
> It would make sense to go with Leo in such a situation since it is better prepared for urban conflict.
> 
> 
> Not a good idea, unless you want the people of that town, city, or village to die of cancer and their next generation totally destroyed.
> 
> IMO, such munitions are only to be used in open area not inhabited by civilian population.



Asymmetric warfare means no enemy armor. Just AK and RPG ambushes maybe katyusha here and there. And a few headache inducing snipers. Your scenario calls for the M1A2S and Leos being deployed while M60s are beig used to hold grounds. And AirForce taking care of the rest. And I am speaking in the extremest layman's terms possible.



Desert Fox said:


> Not a good idea, unless you want the people of that town, city, or village to die of cancer and their next generation totally destroyed.
> 
> IMO, such munitions are only to be used in open area not inhabited by civilian population.



It is extremely unlikely that a WW2 urban armor vs armor scenario is to happen again unless once in a 30 wars sort to speak. Nothing on the ground can survive an air force dominating the air.

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## Armstrong

Mosamania said:


> Who the hell uses tanks for recon these days?? Tanks in western doctrine are for holding ground. In eastern doctrine tanks are for invading. You don't recon with them unless you want to know if there is an enemy or not there by the tank not coming back.



Alright so they don't I used to do that in Command and Conquer Red Alert 2 and later in the Generals ! 

But when I made the comment about it being a specialized version I was thinking of Israel's Merkava LIC which is especially geared towards Low Intensity Conflict so perhaps a version of the M60 can be come up with which is ill-suited to a tank battle but is custom built for a LIC within cities, clearing insurgents and the sort armed with small arms and RPGs of the sort !


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## Desert Fox

Mosamania said:


> Asymmetric warfare means no enemy armor. Just AK and RPG ambushes maybe katyusha here and there. And a few headache inducing snipers. Your scenario calls for the M1A2S and Leos being deployed while M60s are beig used to hold grounds. And AirForce taking care of the rest. And I am speaking in the extremest layman's terms possible.




In a real war scenario you can find yourself facing both situations at once. The Americans did during Iraq war 1, but even before that the Germans were fighting the Soviets in the plains on one side while engaging them in urban environment of Stalingrad, where most of their Tanks were prone to hidden AT guns. In any given conflict, even if it is conventional, taking hold of Towns and strategically located centers is very important, even if it be urban environment.



Mosamania said:


> Your scenario calls for the M1A2S and Leos being deployed while M60s are beig used to hold grounds.


Depending upon the situation, not everything goes as planned in some cases.


I did not take M1A2's into consideration since you posted the scenario with M60's and Leo's.


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## Mosamania

Today's wars are fought on the sky. The fight on the ground is just secondary in importance. Saddam thought that land first and air second... We all know what happened next.

We are modernizing our Entire armed forces from top to bottom as well as doubling our army from 250,000 soldiers to 500,000 soldiers plus reserves. As I said from 2006 to 2020 at least expect a huge shopping spree and from 2015 onwards an even bigger defense industry oriented arms policy.

We are literally restarting from scratch in regards to our army. That is why I keep saying don't talk to me at all about pre-2006 Saudi armed forces instead talk of post-2006 Saudi armed forces with the new doctrine policy and everything. Compare our army of the 1990s to our 2009 Khobah insurgency and you will see what I am talking about.



Desert Fox said:


> In a real war scenario you can find yourself facing both situations at once. The Americans did during Iraq war 1, but even before that the Germans were fighting the Soviets in the plains on one side while engaging them in urban environment of Stalingrad, where most of their Tanks were prone to hidden AT guns. In any given conflict, even if it is conventional, taking hold of Towns and strategically located centers is very important, even if it be urban environment.
> 
> 
> Depending upon the situation, not everything goes as planned in some cases.
> 
> In a real war scenario you can find yourself facing both situations at once. The Americans did during Iraq war 1, but even before that the Germans were fighting the Soviets in the plains on one side while engaging them in urban environment of Stalingrad, where most of their Tanks were prone to hidden AT guns. In any given conflict, even if it is conventional, taking hold of Towns and strategically located centers is very important, even if it be urban environment.
> 
> I did not take M1A2's into consideration since you posted the scenario with M60's and Leo's.



During Iraq war 1 the american tanks were used for "Clean up". After the Air Force destroyed 80% of the tanks on the ground the American tanks moved in to hold ground and advance. There were few instances of battalion vs battalion battles but those fights got air support the moment of engagement.

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## Syed Naved

Great news,all the best saudiya

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## ashok321

Few yrs ago thier was lot of noise about al-khalid being sold in numbers to saudi Arabia.....what happened to that?

Muslim brotherhood is apparently not working?

Or is it al khalid itsef. Because despite al khalid, pakistan has imported tanks from Ukrain?


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## Edevelop

Countries like Pakistan, Iran, Turkey, India, China spend below 5% of GDP on defence. However, when i look at Saudi Arabia, they spend like 8%. I'm surprised to see this result. Who are Saudi Arabia's enemies besides Iran?


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## Mosamania

cb4 said:


> Countries like Pakistan, Iran, Turkey, India, China spend below 5% of GDP on defence. However, when i look at Saudi Arabia, they spend like 8%. I'm surprised to see this result. Who are Saudi Arabia's enemies besides Iran?



This is from our precaution and what you might call phobia and the need to be ready for anything at anytime. You see we once thought that we were surrounded by friends and the whole Muslim world will come to help us in our moment of need. We learned our lesson. 

Never trust anyone or anything and always be prepared. We are sitting on the mort valuable piece of land in the world. And invading it looks like a good idea by many around us.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

ashok321 said:


> Few yrs ago thier was lot of noise about al-khalid being sold in numbers to saudi Arabia.....what happened to that?
> *
> Muslim brotherhood is apparently not working?*
> 
> Or is it al khalid itsef. Because despite al khalid, pakistan has imported tanks from Ukrain?



Can you take off ur foolish hindu islamophobic hat and talk like a real sensible human? and no Pakistan never bought tanks after the induction of Al Khalid off which more than 600 are in PAK ARMY service... 33 something being exported to bangladesh (inferior mbt variants),... and another low cost variant in good numbers with peruvian armed forces.... and the composite tech developed by GIDS(Pak) even exported to Turkiye.

How about your arjun? only 125 on order and already ceasing its production and going for another variant? odd?

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## Desert Fox

ashok321 said:


> Few yrs ago thier was lot of noise about al-khalid being sold in numbers to saudi Arabia.....what happened to that?
> 
> Muslim brotherhood is apparently not working?
> 
> Or is it al khalid itsef. Because despite al khalid, *pakistan has imported tanks from Ukrain?*



We imported 300 T-80UD's before Al-Khalid entered production after testing stage. After that order Pakistan has never imported foreign Tanks.

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## Armstrong

cb4 said:


> Countries like Pakistan, Iran, Turkey, India, China spend below 5% of GDP on defence. However, when i look at Saudi Arabia, they spend like 8%. I'm surprised to see this result. *Who are Saudi Arabia's enemies besides Iran?*



'*Alternative Fuel*' ! 








P.S *Mosa*, don't kill me ! I was only joking...! You can even keep the Mule...!

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## Ottoman-Turk

Saudi brothers , i see you have great Air force and Land force , but Navy needs improvement some new options that we also will get




LHD
















RMK marine new turkish navy projects and products

KORVET PROJES

Also Milgem project
















THE TOP IS MADE BY RMK MARINE TURKISH COMPANY OWNED BY KOC HOLDING

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## Armstrong

Mosamania said:


> This is from our precaution and what you might call phobia and the need to be ready for anything at anytime. *You see we once thought that we were surrounded by friends and the whole Muslim world will come to help us in our moment of need. We learned our lesson. *
> 
> Never trust anyone or anything and always be prepared. We are sitting on the mort valuable piece of land in the world. And invading it looks like a good idea by many around us.



When did this happen ?


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## Ottoman-Turk

I dont think anyone will try to attack a land with Mecca and Medina , every muslim country will war , if not countries Millions of muslim will be volunteer



Mosamania said:


> This is from our precaution and what you might call phobia and the need to be ready for anything at anytime. You see we once thought that we were surrounded by friends and the whole Muslim world will come to help us in our moment of need. We learned our lesson.
> 
> Never trust anyone or anything and always be prepared. We are sitting on the mort valuable piece of land in the world. And invading it looks like a good idea by many around us.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Desert Fox said:


> We imported 300 T-80UD's before Al-Khalid entered production after testing stage. After that order Pakistan has never imported foreign Tanks.



320-325 to be exact....and inds went for the t-90 to counter it.... and by luck we got the UD version after tht.

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## Edevelop

Mosamania said:


> This is from our precaution and what you might call phobia and the need to be ready for anything at anytime. You see we once thought that we were surrounded by friends and the whole Muslim world will come to help us in our moment of need. We learned our lesson.
> 
> Never trust anyone or anything and always be prepared. We are sitting on the mort valuable piece of land in the world. And invading it looks like a good idea by many around us.



If its for precaution then it seems to be a good idea to stockpile your weapons. The 9/11 attacks brought islamic countries like Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, Libya, and now Syria in trouble. I like Saudi Arabia's diplomacy. They have played good cards. Though the U.S seems to be your ally, i don't think your leaders trust them from inside. When you feel you are in danger, you guys increase oil prices (i.e. Arab-Israel war). When you fear westerners maybe agents will take over your country, you guys plant strict rules and visa requirements.


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## Armstrong

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> 320-325 to be exact....and inds went for the t-90 to counter it.... and by luck we got the UD version after tht.



How many of them were T-84s and how many were T-80UDs ?


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## ashok321

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Can you take off ur foolish hindu islamophobic hat and talk like a real sensible human? and no Pakistan never bought tanks after the induction of Al Khalid off which more than 600 are in PAK ARMY service... 33 something being exported to bangladesh (inferior mbt variants),... and another low cost variant in good numbers with peruvian armed forces.... and the composite tech developed by GIDS(Pak) even exported to Turkiye.
> 
> How about your arjun? only 125 on order and already ceasing its production and going for another variant? odd?



"Peru leased five VT-1A from China for trials in 2009. The Peruvian government has expressed interest in purchasing 80&#8211;120 units to complement the fleet of Soviet T-55 tanks in service with the Peruvian Army.However, a comparative study performed by the Peruvian Army Technical Group determined that the Russian T-90S was better suited for areas of their country."

Lol


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## Desert Fox

ashok321 said:


> "Peru leased five VT-1A from China for trials in 2009. The Peruvian government has expressed interest in purchasing 80120 units to complement the fleet of Soviet T-55 tanks in service with the Peruvian Army.However, a comparative study performed by the Peruvian Army Technical Group determined that the Russian T-90S was better suited for areas of their country."
> 
> Lol



The VT-1A were not procured by the Peruvians, however the Moroccans did acquire a few. Secondly, VT-1A is a 100% Chinese export variant of the MBT-2000.

Al-Khalid is Pakistani with exception of engine (Ukrainian) and thermal imaging (French), completely different from VT-1A.


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## Armstrong

ashok321 said:


> "Peru leased five VT-1A from China for trials in 2009. The Peruvian government has expressed interest in purchasing 80&#8211;120 units to complement the fleet of Soviet T-55 tanks in service with the Peruvian Army.However, a comparative study performed by the Peruvian Army Technical Group determined that the Russian T-90S was better suited for areas of their country."
> 
> Lol



I see and this is supposed to prove what ? I do suggest that you go through the Al-Khalid Information Pool; most of your questions would be answered there including what do the Al-Khalid, the MBT-2000 and the VTs have in common and how are they very different from each other ?


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## Mosamania

Ottoman-Turk said:


> Saudi brothers , i see you have great Air force and Land force , but Navy needs improvement some new options that we also will get
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LHD
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RMK marine new turkish navy projects and products
> 
> KORVET PROJES
> 
> Also Milgem project
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> THE TOP IS MADE BY RMK MARINE TURKISH COMPANY OWNED BY KOC HOLDING



8 frigates 2 destroyers and a number of submarines are being negotiated as we speak.

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## Ottoman-Turk

Milgem


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## Desert Fox

Mosamania said:


> Today's wars are fought on the sky. The fight on the ground is just secondary in importance. Saddam thought that land first and air second... We all know what happened next.
> 
> We are modernizing our Entire armed forces from top to bottom as well as doubling our army from 250,000 soldiers to 500,000 soldiers plus reserves. As I said from 2006 to 2020 at least expect a huge shopping spree and from 2015 onwards an even bigger defense industry oriented arms policy.
> 
> We are literally restarting from scratch in regards to our army. That is why I keep saying don't talk to me at all about pre-2006 Saudi armed forces instead talk of post-2006 Saudi armed forces with the new doctrine policy and everything. Compare our army of the 1990s to our 2009 Khobah insurgency and you will see what I am talking about.
> 
> 
> 
> During Iraq war 1 the american tanks were used for "Clean up". After the Air Force destroyed 80% of the tanks on the ground the American tanks moved in to hold ground and advance. There were few instances of battalion vs battalion battles but those fights got air support the moment of engagement.



You have a point, i keep forgetting that its not WW2 anymore, but i still do believe that my scenario is possible in an all out prolonged war. Lets not forget that neither Saudi nor Iran are that far from each other, unlike USA.


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## Ottoman-Turk

tf-2000 above






nice , what countries and what class



Mosamania said:


> 8 frigates 2 destroyers and a number of submarines are being negotiated as we speak.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Armstrong said:


> How many of them were T-84s and how many were T-80UDs ?



Initial batch was the basic t-80U...russos stoped the ukrainians frm selling t-80Us to us...but ukrainians honored the contract n we got the T-80UDs based on the development of the T-84... and later our old T-80s were upgraded to the T-84 standards aswell.

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## ashok321

Malaysia did evaluate it, so did saudi, but no order followed lol....saudi instead went for the best, leaving the rest...


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## Mosamania

Desert Fox said:


> You have a point, i keep forgetting that its not WW2 anymore, but i still do believe that my scenario is possible in an all out prolonged war. Lets not forget that neither Saudi nor Iran are that far from each other, unlike USA.



Yeah but considering there is a large piece of water between us makes Land battles a bit difficult. So over than piece of water only Air and Navy matter. However Iran is not an immediate security threat since the only threat they pose is through their proxies most notably the Houthi Group from Yemen and Mahdi Army in Iraq.



Ottoman-Turk said:


> nice , what countries and what class



Frigates the following are contenders:
1- France FREMM class frigates (We already have experience operating french frigates and they proved to be satisfactory for our navy).
2- American LCS and ICS frigates.

Destroyers the following are contenders:
1- American Alburke class Detroyers.
2- British Type 45 destroyers.

Submarines the following are contenders:
1- Swedish A26 class submarines.
2- French Scorpion class submarines.

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## Desert Fox

Mosamania said:


> Yeah but considering there is a large piece of water between us makes Land battles a bit difficult. So over than piece of water only Air and Navy matter. However Iran is not an immediate security threat since the only threat they pose is through their proxies most notably the Houthi Group from Yemen and Mahdi Army in Iraq.



Ok, i see what you are saying. I was under the impression you were talking in context to a war with Iran where armies of both nations would come into contact which is why i came up with that hypothetical scenario involving armor clashes.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Ottoman-Turk said:


> Milgem



Id love it if PAK NAVY gets these ladies.... or at first priority kickstart our warship industry nothing solid came out after the Larkana,Jalalat etc missile boats....or the ToTed Agosta-90bs,500 TON FACS or F-22P stealthy frigs... i just hope those guys good luck with our indigenous nuclear submarine!


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## BLACKEAGLE

Mosamania said:


> Yeah but considering there is a large piece of water between us makes Land battles a bit difficult. So over than piece of water only Air and Navy matter. However Iran is not an immediate security threat since the only threat they pose is through their proxies most notably the Houthi Group from Yemen and Mahdi Army in Iraq.
> 
> 
> 
> Frigates the following are contenders:
> 1- France FREMM class frigates (We already have experience operating french frigates and they proved to be satisfactory for our navy).
> 2- American LCS and ICS frigates.
> 
> Destroyers the following are contenders:
> 1- American Alburke class Detroyers.
> 2- British Type 45 destroyers.
> 
> Submarines the following are contenders:
> 1- Swedish A26 class submarines.
> 2- French Scorpion class submarines.



Any updated news regarding the navy contract with the US?


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## Ottoman-Turk

I dont really know too much but i know LCS is new design and new technology introduced only few years ago i think 



Mosamania said:


> Yeah but considering there is a large piece of water between us makes Land battles a bit difficult. So over than piece of water only Air and Navy matter. However Iran is not an immediate security threat since the only threat they pose is through their proxies most notably the Houthi Group from Yemen and Mahdi Army in Iraq.
> 
> 
> 
> Frigates the following are contenders:
> 1- France FREMM class frigates (We already have experience operating french frigates and they proved to be satisfactory for our navy).
> 2- American LCS and ICS frigates.
> 
> Destroyers the following are contenders:
> 1- American Alburke class Detroyers.
> 2- British Type 45 destroyers.
> 
> Submarines the following are contenders:
> 1- Swedish A26 class submarines.
> 2- French Scorpion class submarines.



We are getting totally indigenous new ships , Milgem project , Tf-2000 classified as frigate/destroyer , LHD we will get very strong navy , we see some countries classify 1,500 ton ships as destroyers while we class 3,500 ton ships as frigate

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## Mosamania

BLACKEAGLE said:


> Any updated news regarding the navy contract with the US?



No nothing as of yet. In fact just when the American ship builders were saying "We are only awaiting the signing of the contract from the Saudi side" we started negotiations with France for the FREMM. So we will see how things turn out. 

I am really excited about the destroyers. That would mean that KSA will be the only Navy in the region operating destroyers.

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## Ottoman-Turk

tf-2000 will be 6000+ton so we can say light destroyer or even destroyer


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## Mosamania

Ottoman-Turk said:


> I dont really know too much but i know LCS is new design and new technology introduced only few years ago i think
> 
> 
> 
> We are getting totally indigenous new ships , Milgem project , Tf-2000 classified as frigate/destroyer , LHD we will get very strong navy , we see some countries classify 1,500 ton ships as destroyers while we class 3,500 ton ships as frigate


 
Yeah those countries like to fool themselves by these things which is in fact quite funny to the extreme. 1500 tons is a corvette not even a frigate. 

The classification of ships is a very touchy matter for example the Japanese classify their 11,000 ton navy ships as "Frigates" to not upset the balance of forces in the region. on the other hand we have people classifying a 1500 ton ship as "Destroyer" which always bring a good laugh in our meetings.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

ashok321 said:


> Malaysia did evaluate it, so did saudi, but no order followed lol....saudi instead went for the best, leaving the rest...


 
Malaysia also operates our anza series SAMs ,our Anti tank BaktarShikan missiles and other weaponary!

And stop making urself like an idiot... although u really are.


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## Mosamania

Ottoman-Turk said:


> tf-2000 will be 6000+ton so we can say light destroyer or even destroyer



6000+ ton means that they are bordering on destroyers and its classification will depend upon its role it is going to take.

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## Ottoman-Turk

So, in 2020s, Turkish Navy will look like this:
4+2 TF-2000 AAW-Destroyer/Frigates 
16 TF-100/MEKO/OHPs Frigates
8 Milgem Corvettes
22 new Type-214T with Type-209 SSKs
27 FACs

Turkish navy will be a very modern and even stronger force by 2020 


Up to 6 AAW Destroyers
Up to 6 ? TF-2000 
6000 tons AAW destroyer. Indigenously design derived/enlarged from the TF-100 design. 4 planned (2 others in option, but maybe unlikely due to financial constraint ?, a program of 3 $ billion). Expected to be commissioned round 2018/2022, with probable +/- 30 year of life, to remain in service until 2050.

+/- 16 Destroyers/Frigates (toward fewer but bigger and indigenously ships&#8230 
Up to 4 TF-100 
Around 2500/3000 tons, Improved/enlarged Milgem corvette, with additional VLS missiles, maybe expected around 2016-2020.

4 Barbaros (Meko 200) 
(Barbaros, Orucreis, Salihreis, Kemalreis). 3200 tons, 116 meters. Commissioned by 1995/2000, with probably +/- 30 year of life expected, to be retired around 2025/2030 and replaced by

4 Yavuz (Meko 200) 
(Yavuz, Turgutreis, Fatih, Yildirim). 3000 tons, 110 meters. Commissioned by 1987/1989, with probable +/- 30 year of service expected, to be retired by 2017/2019 and directly ? replaced by the four TF-100 ships ?

8 &#8220;G&#8221; (US O.H.Perry) 
(Gaziantep, Giresun, Gemlik, Gelibolu, Gokceada, Gediz, Gokova, Goksu). 4000 tons, 135 meters, Ex-US Frigates (built during 1980&#8217;s). Transferred by 1997/2003, upgraded (GENESIS program) by 2007/2001. Likely to remain in service until early 2020&#8217;s.

Considering that during this 2010&#8217;s decade the U.S. Navy will remove from service more than 25+ O.H. Perry frigates, it is possible ? that the Turkish navy receives additional Perry's FFG.
But now this is unlikely because:
- Turkey wishes to develop its naval shipbuilding industry and build its own warships.
- The Turkish now see Perry&#8217;s as old/ageing ships.

+/- 8 Corvette (toward a full renewal)
Up to 8 Ada 
(Heybeliada, Buyukada, Burgazada, Kinaliada, Uzunada, others not yet named). 2000 tons, 99 meters.

6 &#8220;B&#8221; 
(Bozcaada, Bodrum, Bandirma, Beykoz, Bartin, Bafra). 1300 tons, 80 meters (Ex-French coastal Avisos A-69). French commissioned by 1976/1979, transferred by 2000/2002 (designed for coastal ASW, very economical and seaworthy design). All must be removed from service during this decade (2010&#8217;s) and replaced by 8 Milgem

+/- 14 Submarines 
Up to 6 Type 214 
(2,9 $ billion (or 2,19 &#8364; billion) for 6 newer SSK. Likely to be commissioned by 2015/2019.

4 Gur (Type 209T2/1400) 
(Gur, Canakkale, Burakreis, Birinci Inonu). 1500+ tons, 61 meters. Commissioned by 2003/2007, to remain in service until early 2030&#8217;s.

4 Preveze (Type 209T1/1400) 
(Preveze, Sakarya, 18 Mart, Anafartalar). 1500+ tons, 61 meters. Commissioned by 1994/1999, to remain en service until late 2020&#8217;s.

6 Atilay (Type 209/1200) 
(Atilay, Saldiray, Batiray, Yildiray, Doganay, Dolunay). 1200 tons, 55+ meters. Commissioned by 1976/1989. Mid-life refit (with AIP) cancelled. The four early Atilay&#8217;s SSK will be replaced by future Type 214 SSK by 2015 +. Th last 2 SSK of these class (Doganay, Dolunay) will receive a upgrading systems (new periscopes, ESM, Inertial Navigation Systems) and was expected to last until early 2020&#8217;s.

+/- 27 Fast Attack Missile Crafts 
Up to 4 newer FAC ?
With the development of the Turkish Shipbuilding Industry (and the age of some FAC), a new generation of Turkish indigenously FAC is likely currently on study, for entry into service by late 2010's. Wait & See

6 Kilic II 
(Tufan, Melten, Imbat, Zipkin, Atak, Bora). 550 tons, 62 meters, improved from Kilic I FAC. Commissioned by 2005/2010, to be retired by 2035+.

3 Kilic I 
(Kilic, Kalkan, Mizrak). 550 tons, 62 meters (Designed by German shipyard, much enlarged/improved design from Yildiz FAC design). Commissioned by 1998/2000, to be retired around 2030.

2 Yildiz 
(Yildiz, Karayel). 430+ tons, 57+ meters (FAC designed by German shipyard, nearly similar to Ruzgar/Dogan FAC class, but with improved sensors/radars). Commissioned by 1997, to be retired by late 2020&#8217;s.

4 Ruzgar 
(Ruzgar, Poyraz, Girbet, Firtina). 410 tons, 57+ tons (FAC designed by German Shipyard). Commissioned by 1986/1988, progressively ageing FAC, likely to be retired by late 2010&#8217;s.

4 Dogan 
(Dogan, Marti, Tayfun, Volkan). 430 tons, 58 meters (FAC designed by German Shipyard). Commissioned by 1977/1981. Now ageing FAC crafts, likely to be retired through 2010&#8217;s.

8 Kartal 
(Denizkusu, Atmaca, Sahin, Kartal, Pelikan, Albatros, Simsek, Kasirga). 200+ tons, 42 meters (FAC derived from the German Zobel FAC design). Commissioned by 1977/1988, ageing/obsolete FAC (can be fitted for minelaying), likely to be retired soon and replaced by some Tuzla ASW crafts ?.

Up to 16 ? Tuzla 
(Tuzla, Karaburun, Köyce&#287;iz, Kumkale, Tarsus, Karabiga, Kar&#351;&#305;yaka, Tekirda&#287;, Ka&#351;, Kilimli, Türkeli, others not yet nammed). 400 tons, 55 meters. Indigenous (69%) Turkish ASW coastal/patrol craft. Commissioned by 2011+&#8230;

7 Patrol Boats
7 Turk class 
(AB-27, 28, 29, 31, 33, 35, 36). 170 tons, 40 meters. Locally built. 12 very similar craft are operated by the Turkish Coast Guard.

+/- 20 Mine-Hunters 
6 Aydin 
(Alanya, Amasra, Ayvalik, Akcakoca, Anamur, Akcay). 650+ tons, 54+ meters (copy from the German Frankenthal MCM design). Commissioned by 2005/2008, likely to remain in service until late 2030&#8217;s.

5 Edincik 
(Edincik, Edremit, Enez, Erdek, Erdemli). 500 tons, 50 meters (former French MCM of the Circé class, built by early 1970&#8217;s). Transferred by 1998, likely to remain in service until late 2010&#8217;s.

4 F class
(Foca, Fethiye, Fatsa, Finike). 235 tons, 34 meters (US Coastal MCM design). Acquired by 1967, likely to be retired during 2010's.

5 S class 
(Samsun, Surmene, Silifke, Saros, Sigacik, Sapanca, Sariyer). 370 tons, 43 meters (Ex-US coastal MCM). Transferred during 1960&#8217;s-1970&#8217;s. Now obsolete MCM, likely to be retired through 2010&#8217;s.

3 K Class 
(Karamursel, Kerempe, Kilimli). 370 tons, 47 meters (Ex-German coastal MCM). Transferred during 1970&#8217;s.

+/- 6 Large/Medium Amphibious 
Up to 1 LPD
Approved by late 2006, First major step towards distant deployments.

Up to 2 newer LST 
Approved by late 2006, contract signed by may 2011, to be delivered by 2015.

1 Osman Gazi 
(Osman Gazi). 3700 tons, 105 meters LST design (can be fitted for minelaying). Commissioned by 1994, to remain in service at least until mid 2020&#8217;s.

2 Sarucabey
(Sarucabey, Karamurselbey). 2600 tons, 92 meters LST (can be fitted for minelaying). Commissioned by 1984/1987.

2 Ertugrul 
(Ertugrul, Serdar). 5800 tons, 117 meters (Ex-US LST of County class, built during 1950&#8217;s). Transferred by 1973/1975, likely to be retired during 2010's and replaced by 2 newer LST currently planned.

+/- 3 dozens of Small Amphibious
Up to 12 newer LCT 
Approved by late 2006.

25 C-117 class (LCT) 
(C-120, 123, 125, 126, 127, 128, 129, 132, 133, 134, 135, 137, 138, 139, 140, 141, 142, 143, 144, 145, 146, 147, 148, 149, 150). 600 tons, 57 meters. All built locally.

16 C-302 class (LCM) 
(C-305, 308, 312, 313, 314, 316, 319, 321, 322, 323, 324, 325, 326, 327, 329, 330, 331). 113 tons, 22+ meters LCM design.

up to 3 Replenishment Ships 
1 newer Fleet Tanker 
Approved 
Transports Training Ships

2 Akar
(Akar, Yarbay Kudret Gungor). Up to 19 000 tons, 145 meters. Commissioned by 1987/1997.

Logistic/Transports Ships
2 Meseha (transport)
(Meseha-1, Meseha-2). 38 tons, 16 meters. Commissioned by 1994

2 Albay (oil/water transport)
(Albay Hakki Burak, Yubasi Ihsan Tulunay). 3200 tons, 81 meters. Commissioned by 1999/2000

1 Iskenderun
(Iskenderun). 10 000+ tons, 127 meters. Commissioned by 2002. 

+/- 10 Training Ships
2 Rheim 
(Sokullu Mehmet Pasa, Cezayirli Gazi Hasan Pasa). 2900 tons, 98 meters (Ex-German logistic ships built during 1960&#8217;s, can be fitted for minelaying). Transferred by 1993/1995.

8 Small training crafts 
(E-1/8). 97 tons, 28+ meters. Commissioned by 2000.

2 Submarine Rescue Ships
Up to 1 newer Submarine Rescue Ship 
Approved, design now completed, Submarine Rescue Mother Ship (MOSHIP)

1 Kurtaran
(Kurtaran). 1700+ tons, 62 meters (converted tug). Commissioned by 1950, likely to be replaced by a newer ship (MOSHIP) during 2010's.

1 Akin
(Akin). 2300 tons, 76 meters. Commissioned by 1970.

Others Auxiliary Ships 
1 Isin (salvage ships)
(Isin). 1900+ tons, 65 meters (ex-US salvage ships built during 1940/1950&#8217;s). Leased by 1979, transferred by 1987

1 Darica (torpedoes recovery/Firefighting vessel)
(Darica). 750 tons, 41 meters. Commissioned by 1991 

+/- 2 Fleet Tugs
Up to 2 newer Rescue/Towing Ships
Approved, design currently under study.

1 Tenace
(Degirmendere). 1500+ tons, 51 meters (ex-French ocean Tug built during 1970&#8217;s). Transferred by 1999.

1 Cherokee
(Gazal). 1600+ tons, 62 meters (ex-US ocean tug/submarine salvage ship). Near sister-ship of Kurtaran. Transferred by 1973 

3 Survey Ships
2 Cesme class
(Cesme, Candarli). 2500 tons, 87 meters (Ex-US ships built during 1960&#8217;s). Transferred by 1999/2001.

1 Cubuklu
(Cubuklu). 640 tons, 40 meters. Commissioned by 1986.


TURKISH COAST GUARDS (+/- 2200) 
4 Off-Shore Patrol Vessels
4 Dost 
(Dost, Umut, Yasam, Guven). 1700 tons, 88+ meters (derived from the Italian Sirio OPV design, 480 $ millions (380 &#8364; million) for 4 ships). Commissioned by 2011/2012.

+/- 64 Mid Shore Patrol Boats 
10 SAR 33 
(SG-61/70). 180 tons, 34+ meters. Prototype built by Abeking & Rasmussen, rest in Turkey.

4 SAR 35 
(SG-71/74). 210 tons, 36+ meters. Enlarged design from SAR 33, built in Turkey.

9 KAAN 29 
(SG-101/109). 95 tons, 29 meters. Indigenous Turkey design, first craft commissioned by 2000.

13 KAAN 33 
(SG-301/313). 120 tons, 35+ meters (enlarged design from KAAN 29). Indigenous Turkey design. First 4 crafts delivered by 2005/2006, others follow. Few others maybe planned ?

14 SG-80 
(SG-80/93). 195 tons, 40+ meters. Indigenous Turkey design, delivered by late 1990&#8217;s/early 2000&#8217;s.

14 SG-21 
(SG-21/34). 180 tons, 40+ meters. Very similar to the Turk class patrol craft operated by the Navy. All built in Turkey.

+/- 41 In Shore Patrol Boats 
18 KAAN 15 
(SG-1/18). 19 tons, 15+ meters. Indigenous Turkey design, first commissioned by 1998.

3 KAAN 20 
(SG-19/21). 21 tons, 22+ meters. Indigenous Turkey design , First craft commissioned by 2006.

12 SG-50
(SG-50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 102, 103). 29 tons, 14+ meters. All built in Turkey.

8 KW 15 
(SG-12/19). 70 tons, 28+ meters (ex-German Inshore Patrol Vessels).

Turkish Marines +/- 3000 troops 

Naval Aviation 
Aicrafts 
- Up to 10 ATR-72-500 (ASW).
- 6 CN-235/100M (delivered by 2002) + 3 others (for Turkish Coast Guard, by 2002/2003), (Maritime Patrol Aircrafts).
- 7 TB-20 Trinidad (for training, delivered by 1995).

Helicopters 
- 14 S-70B2 Seahawk (First seven delivered by 2002/2003, last seven delivered by 2011). A last groupe of 11 was expected to be delivered soon (for a grand total of 25 helico).
- 14 AB-212 (progressively delivered by 1977/2005, ASW).
- 13 AB-412 EP (delivered by 2002/2009).

meko 200 these look powerfull frigates


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## Mosamania

Turkish navy is by far the strongest in the region. I believe the only country in the Middle East that can actually put the bulk of an invasion's work on its navy.

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## Ottoman-Turk

yes i always , always thought of same doctrine , very strong air force and navy , when your airforce and navy destroys air and navy and keeps control and skies is under your countrol then you can do anything you want to land , destroy their sams , bombard their tanks , but im hoping we get an AC along with helicopter carriers


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## Mosamania

Ottoman-Turk said:


> yes i always , always thought of same doctrine , very strong air force and navy , when your airforce and navy destroys air and navy and keeps control and skies is under your countrol then you can do anything you want to land , destroy their sams , bombard their tanks , but im hoping we get an AC along with helicopter carriers



Depending on Turkey's interests. ACs are an extension of the country's economy sort to speak. You need ACs if your economy is so big it needs to be protected world wide. Thailand got an AC for prestige and it just sits there doing nothing in the docks and only rarely does it even load AirCrafts in it. 

Armies are a means to an end not an end. If Turkey needs to protect its interests in far away lands to safeguard its economy then yes it will need an AC then which is an investment for interest which in return helps Turkey's economy. If not and it only needs to protect its interests and economy in its immediate zone and region then the current military prowess of Turkey will suffice to do that job.

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## ashok321

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Malaysia also operates our anza series SAMs ,our Anti tank BaktarShikan missiles and other weaponary!
> 
> And stop making urself like an idiot... although u really are.



Its all about tanks....
Dont mix apples and oranges to get a face lift.


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## Axa-

good to see our allies getting stronger.

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## opz

Axa- said:


> good to see our allies getting stronger.



*we too also , when i see how the turkish going strong and building many weapons , this really make us feel gladness for yours , keep going what yours do it now bro​*

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## Mosamania

opz said:


> *we too also , when i see how the turkish going strong and building many weapons , this really make us feel gladness for yours , keep going what yours do it now bro​*



We as well. When I see how Turkey is becoming stronger and is building different kinds of weapons, this really make us very proud of you guys. Keep going the way you are going now "bro".


Translation for above text in case you need it

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## DESERT FIGHTER

ashok321 said:


> Its all about tanks....
> Dont mix apples and oranges to get a face lift.



And india has exported how many? lol


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## opz

Mosamania said:


> We as well. When I see how Turkey is becoming stronger and is building different kinds of weapons, this really make us very proud of you guys. Keep going the way you are going now "bro".
> 
> 
> Translation for above text in case you need it



*hehehe , thanx for ur help



, sorry but some times i write my post in quickly without review and fix anything


*


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## ashok321

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> And india has exported how many? lol



Its not about india.
Its saudi.
Many among u think saudi should have helped pakistan by buying al-khalid.
But they went for kafir maal anyway, because kafir tech is better - the land of mecca thinks.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

ashok321 said:


> Its not about india.
> Its saudi.
> Many among u think saudi should have helped pakistan by buying al-khalid.
> But they went for kafir maal anyway, because kafir tech is better - the land of mecca thinks.



Hindu kafirs like urself can not understand logic.


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## POST_HUMAN_WAR

ashok321 said:


> Its not about india.
> Its saudi.
> Many among u think saudi should have helped pakistan by buying al-khalid.
> But they went for kafir maal anyway, because kafir tech is better - the land of mecca thinks.



When buying a tank when has to look at the following things:

*Price tag
*Relation with supplier
*Infrustruce
*Geography of ones country
*Politcal reasons
*Histroy and reliblity of supplier
*Maintaince
*weight
*Performence
*Transfer of tehnology
*usage of fuel

It had more to do with politics than the MBT performence(thank you nabil_05 for clarying) read below


ISLAMABAD, Pakistan: (PNS) - A 23-member Royal Saudi Land Forces evaluation team headed by Maj Gen Ahmed Bin Saeed Al-Shehri visited Pakistan for evaluation of indigenously manufactured products of Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT).

The evaluation team was warmly welcomed by the Chairman HIT, who gave them an exhaustive briefing on the capability of HIT and its potential for marketing sophisticated weapon systems suiting the dictates of modern warfare.

The Saudi team showed keen interest in state-of-the-art and pride of Pakistan Armour, Al-Khalid tank and APC Saad, and carried out intensive in-house technical evaluation and trials.

During the arduous trials under most inhospitable environments, the roaring Al-Khalid, a marvel of tank technology performed astoundingly well. It is for the first time that a Main Battle tank (Al-Khalid) attained 100% hits at a distance of 4,000 meters and set an unprecedented record in tank technology.

Al-Khalid also fired while moving, on a moving target at various ranges upto a distance of 3,000 meters and achieved 100% results. The lethality and accuracy of the weapon stations of Al-Khalid, its high power to weight ratio and manoeuvrability demonstrated in the most hostile terrain speaks volumes of its agility and combat capability to challenge any tank of the world.

Saudi Master Gunner, Subedar Major Yahya Bin Ahmed Atif achieved the rare feat of hitting a bulls eye at extreme ranges with 100% accuracy and achieved record firing results with a few days training only, indicative of user friendliness of Tank Al-Khalid.

The delegation was highly impressed with the performance of tank Al-Khalid and APC Saad during arduous trials. The new generation, APC Saad of Pakistan Armed forces has also been totally manufactured in Pakistan with a vision to meet the demands of 21st century battlefield.

Pakistan is rightfully proud of its engineers and technicians who envisioned, designed and manufactured such combat multipliers, giving its Armed Forces the power punch and capability to face any challenge to its national security.


Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...t-2000-information-pool-15.html#ixzz1y6qirHXb
(thank you desert fox for the source)
By your logic the Abharms are weaker then the Al Khalid and the Merkava because both Isreal and Pakistan refused it.





ANTIBODY said:


> *Requirements met by al-khalid*
> 
> 
> KSA had in principle agreed to buy 150 Al-Khalid tanks worth $600 million. All trails are COMPLETED and some modification have already made to Al-Khalid. (current Al Khalid)
> 
> 1- Trials at 55 C were successful with very fine dust not making any impediment on the engine and performance of the tank. (not many Indian Tanks have achieved that)
> 
> 2- Turret power control now is all electrically controlled backed by manual control (KSA)
> 
> 3- A new European Renk LSG 3000 transmission has been incorporated (KSA) (SESM 500 for Pak)
> 
> 4- There is some type of &#8216;special&#8217; armor has been installed. During trails this &#8216;special&#8217; armor (on the hull and turret) tested through live firing which defeated all types of 120 & 125 mm tank projectiles. (PA & KSA) (this is the armor is was talking about)
> 
> 5- Modifications have been completed which resulted in increasing the 125 mm rounds from 39 to 49
> 
> 6- Ammo storage for 12.7 & 7.62 mm has increased from 1,000 to 1,500 and 4,000 to 7,100 rounds respectively, thus, making Al-Khalid the most heavily weaponized tank in the world.
> 
> 7- The power pack (engine, transmission & cooling system) can be removed in 30 minutes and reinstalled in 35 minutes.
> 
> 8- KSA Al-Khalid will be equipped with (PA also), IBMS (PA also), and active threat-protection system.
> 
> 
> 
> Peru's requirements were:
> 
> 1) Capability of withstanding modern ammo fired by 120L55 from distances higher than 2000 meters.
> 2) Acceptable capability of resisting a Spike hit.
> 3) Capability of tracking and destroying a Leo-2A6 from 2800 meters in all weather conditions.
> 4) Delivery of tanks within a year.


http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...-mbt-2000-information-pool-2.html#post2078381

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## Zarvan

The Legend said:


> Deal for around 300 tanks is about to be signed, newspaper says
> ReutersPublished: 13:35 June 17, 2012
> Share on facebookShare on twitterShare on emailShare on printMore Sharing Services2
> 
> see old link http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-forum/118240-leopard-2a7-saudi-arabia.html
> 
> 
> Berlin: Saudi Arabia wants to buy 600 to 800 Leopard battle tanks from Germany, at least twice the number previously expected, a German newspaper reported on Sunday.
> A deal for around 300 tanks was about to be signed, Bild am Sonntag newspaper said in a report sent to Reuters ahead of publication.
> The newspaper said that while there was opposition to the deal in Germanys Chancellery, Foreign Ministry and Defence Ministry, there was support for it within the Economy Ministry.
> The Saudi order could secure the future of German tank-makers Krauss-Maffei Wegman and Rheinmetall, which urgently need new markets because of the restructuring of the German army, said Bild am Sonntag.
> A German government spokeswoman declined to comment.
> Last year, Germany denied reports that it had agreed to export 270 Leopard tanks to Saudi Arabia. Exports of military equipment cannot be officially acknowledged as they are confidential and disclosure is punishable by a fine or jail. Opposition lawmakers heaped pressure on Chancellor Angela Merkels government after reports it had cut a secret deal to sell the tanks, saying it contravened the countrys export guidelines for military hardware.
> Arms exports are a sensitive issue in Germany given its Nazi past as well as the role arms makers like Krupp played in feeding 19th and 20th century wars with exports to both sides of conflicts.
> Germany has refrained from exporting heavy weapons to Gulf states in the past, given its close relationship with Israel and more recently because of the so-called Arab Spring.
> Citing industry sources, Bild am Sonntag said Saudi Arabia wanted to sign the deal by July 20.
> Spanish firm General Dynamic/Santa Barbara would produce the tanks under licence by the German firms, the newspaper said.
> 
> 
> gulfnews


Saudi Arabia should also increase its number of soldiers and also improve training because if they don't have well trained soldiers than these tanks will prove worse than toys for Saudi Arabia in any kind of war and they should try to get them with TOT and start producing them in their own country

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## POST_HUMAN_WAR

Zarvan said:


> Saudi Arabia should also increase its number of soldiers and also improve training because if they don't have well trained soldiers than these tanks will prove worse than toys for Saudi Arabia in any kind of war and they should try to get them with TOT and start producing them in their own country


According to Mosamania they are trying to increase their number of troops to 500,000 strong.

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## The SC

Aryan_B said:


> Guys can I ask any of you that is knowledgeable on tanks to tell us if Sauds could have done a similar deal with Pakistan and or Turkey?








The technology is very advanced and I think even Pakistan will want to get it hands on a few.
Although I am pretty sure the Altay will be a very advanced Tank, it is still in the making and not ready or tested thoroughly.
There is most probably some future procuremnt projects for the Altay and AlKhalid MBT to supplement and complement the Abrams and the leopards.


leopard 2 revolution upgrade

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## Zarvan

Mosamania said:


> It is funny watching you lot whine about why "No co-operation" between Pakistan or turkey. Well Al-Tay is heavily derived from the Leopard 2s. We want the Leopards because they have the best tech in the world right now. We are also not signing a single defense deal since 2006 without ToT.
> 
> The rule is simple "If we can't make it after buying it we don't want it". From the Typhoon to the leopard we are following this policy. Sure it will be all nice and rosy for Muslim countries to work together and be like a peach however this doesn't work in the real world. The Land Forces strategic command has a certain set of requirements that even the modern M1A2 didn't pass and had to be upgraded to M1A2S standards to hopefully meet some of them.
> 
> We need something that works in all of KSA environments from our rigid extremely mountainous regions of the west amd south to our vast burning deserts of east. We need something that will link up to our military satellites. We need something that can stop more than 1200mm AT shells. We need something that puts crew safety to the highest of standards. We need something that is in the class of heavy battle tanks of 55+ tonnage. We need something that is able to cross our big country is short notice. We need something that can go for a long distance without refueling. Even the T-90 was so heavily tested until it's engine broke down. And above all else we need something with ToT and full spare parts production license.
> 
> The Leopard 2s fits our requirements like a glove. It has been our choice for some time now that a factory was built on the Leopard2 specifications already. Helping Muslim brothers is so good and all but requirements on the battlefield to ensure a victory over invaders or the likes iand the safety of our soldiers and people is even more important.


When will you follow this rule for Submarines and Frigates and other stuff ?


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## cabatli_53

That's the latest Otokar image pointing places of crew/munition store along with chassis design revealed by a serious defence magazine. 






At turret/chassis, The driver section is stationed in the middile of the front (As It is updated ), While turret design is looking almost same with well-known first design image revealed by Otokar (Altay with add on armours).

The mock-up revealed by Otokar in IDEF was Altay BHT (Ballistic hull and turret) design which Roktsan made add-on armours haven't been applied yet. 

That's Altay BHT






With Roketsan designed add-on armours on eachsides and front section, Final look of Altay will be similar to that, 







At design image (First image), The Roketsan add-on armours are clear When It is checked the area electronics occured (Aft side looking to Altay turret).







With that design, Final Altay will be one of the best looking and attractive main battle tank along with Leopard A-6 and Merkava on the World.

With Roketsan Armours and Electronics, FCS technology specially developed by Aselsan, Altay MBT will be called as *3+ Generation tank* of the World.

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## Desert Fox

German Tanks were always and continue to be the BEST Tanks in the world. Historically Germans were the pioneers of Armored Warfare.


The Famous German Field Marshal Erwin Rommel, AKA the "Desert Fox" () was the genius behind the fast Panzer formations and their pincer movements which he used to his advantage during the Blitzkrieg on France in 1940 as well as his Afrika Korps outflanking maneuver that caught the british from their weakest points during the North African campaign. 

In fact, during Operation Desert Storm the Americans employed the exact tactics and strategy which Erwin Rommel used against the british some 60-70 years ago. There is a story that a captured high ranking Iraqi soldier being held in an American APC saw a poster of Erwin Rommel hanging in the vehicle and asked his American captors "why do you have the image of your former adversary hanging in your Tank?", the American replied "Shut up!! If you knew anything about the man then you wouldn't be here!". 







The most feared Tank of the War, the Konigstiger:








In honor of the Afrika Korps and their gallant General:

Afrika Korps - Panzer rollen in Afrika vor. - YouTube

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## OrionHunter

Good God Almighty! The stuff you guys are getting - from aircraft to tanks in their hundreds - *are you going to outsource the manpower required to man them? * Do you have so many princely sheiks to get 'dirty' seeing that they are used to their flamboyant lifestyles? 

And then your only adversary in the region is Iran. You have no contiguous borders with it. How are you gonna use your over-sized tank force against them? By making a flyover across Iraq??


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## cabatli_53

BTW, Leopard 2NG program is commenced to test the Altay MBT's Electronics/FCS, designed/developed by Aselsan, on a proven chassis until Altay MBT prototypes become ready on field.

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## Mav3rick

Aryan_B said:


> But the point is that Muslims are disparately trying to build indigenous manufacturing capabilities. They could have assisted Pakistan or Turks and got a better deal.
> 
> We will never as Muslims be anything if we keep buying weapons from west etc. i know sometimes it is unavoidable but perhaps some brothers on here who are knowledgeable on tanks can tell us why this was not possible


 
I was wondering the same thing, 10 Billion Euro investment in Al-Khalid II could have produced a winner for both the countries.



Wright said:


> When you have money you want the best. The leo is top dog.
> I also think they don't want Russian based tanks after seeing how easily Iraq went down in both wars. Also from seeing the Arab- Israeli wars.
> An I think Iranian tanks are also Soviet based, which is perhaps why they went for the German one.
> 
> Anyhow good for them, they need to build up their army to counter Iranian agression.


 
Are you serious, I mean what does Iran really have that could threaten Saudi Arabia with the toys that SA has acquired in the past 15 years?


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## Ottoman-Turk

Aselsan Next Gen looks really good imo


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## Mav3rick

BLACKEAGLE said:


> With all due respect and love to our Pakistani brothers and products but I can't believe you guys comparing Leopard 2A7 with Al-khalid.
> 
> It's even superior to American Abrams m1a2 in protection, mobility, fire power and in almost everything.


 
Care to compare how it is superior to Al-Khalid and to the newer Al-Khalid II (development/testing)?


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## Deno

Common guys this is not Turkish Defence subforum, this is Saudi Defence news...

Lets just say enjoy it to Sauds 

or in Turkish

Güle güle kullan (Use it with smile) though don't think that there will be a lot of smiles in opposing force against Leos...

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## cabatli_53

Altay turret







Merkava MK 4







Leo 2 A6

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## Deno

Mav3rick said:


> Care to compare how it is superior to Al-Khalid and to the newer Al-Khalid II (development/testing)?



I don't think any tank could match Leo 2a7s in open field or in urban warfare but Leo 2A7 would nothing more than a sitting duck in Indo-Pak environment.

Thats why Pak went for Al-Khalid and India went for Arjun although from what I hear Arjun wasn't a success story unlike Al-Khalid

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## Mav3rick

Aeronaut said:


> @Raptor No Tank in the world can survive an ATGM attack , which happened in Lebanon.
> 
> Alkhalid is like a Sohrab Bicycle infront of Leopard. You can buy 3 Ak's in the price of one Leopard.


 
So, does anybody think a Leopard can survive against 3 Al-Khalids?



NeutralCitizen said:


> Al Khalid is inferior to all western tanks it's good for third world countries sudan, bangladesh, myanmar, the only edge I would give to the Al Khalid is that pakistani tank crews are superior to Arab crews.
> 
> 
> 
> It's inferior to all western tanks no wonder it wasn't used, only edge is the pakistani tank crew.


 
Care to prove those 'facts'?


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## Bubblegum Crisis

Mosamania said:


> It is funny watching you lot whine about why "No co-operation" between Pakistan or turkey. Well Al-Tay is heavily derived from the Leopard 2s. We want the Leopards because they have the best tech in the world right now. We are also not signing a single defense deal since 2006 without ToT.
> 
> The rule is simple "If we can't make it after buying it we don't want it". From the Typhoon to the leopard we are following this policy. Sure it will be all nice and rosy for Muslim countries to work together and be like a peach however this doesn't work in the real world. The Land Forces strategic command has a certain set of requirements that even the modern M1A2 didn't pass and had to be upgraded to M1A2S standards to hopefully meet some of them.
> 
> We need something that works in all of KSA environments from our rigid extremely mountainous regions of the west amd south to our vast burning deserts of east. We need something that will link up to our military satellites. We need something that can stop more than 1200mm AT shells. We need something that puts crew safety to the highest of standards. We need something that is in the class of heavy battle tanks of 55+ tonnage. We need something that is able to cross our big country is short notice. We need something that can go for a long distance without refueling. Even the T-90 was so heavily tested until it's engine broke down. And above all else we need something with ToT and full spare parts production license.
> 
> The Leopard 2s fits our requirements like a glove. It has been our choice for some time now that a factory was built on the Leopard2 specifications already. Helping Muslim brothers is so good and all but requirements on the battlefield to ensure a victory over invaders or the likes iand the safety of our soldiers and people is even more important.





Zarvan said:


> When will you follow this rule for Submarines and Frigates and other stuff ?


 
This is already the situation now for any military acquisition (air, land and now also naval). But before you do everything very well prepared in advance for this new big naval acquisition also heavy with TOT.




Zarvan said:


> Saudi Arabia should also increase its number of soldiers and also improve training because if they don't have well trained soldiers than these tanks will prove worse than toys for Saudi Arabia in any kind of war...



The number of our "troops trained" going to rise gradually from of 250 000 soldiers to 500 000 soldiers strong. 




Zarvan said:


> ... and they should try to get them with TOT and start producing them in their own country




*See link:*

http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...-800-leopard-tanks-germany-3.html#post3066719


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## Ottoman-Turk

Atleast SA is going for new tech or even slowly making some things , unlike Iranian junk propoganda

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## poseidon

This is going to be for the internal war which will happen over the crown.
90% of their population is fat prince and princesses.

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## Banu Umayyah

After 20 page of reading, my conclusion is I have no ******* clue about military stuff.
@ Pakistani & Turki brothers
I have forwarded your military offers to king Abdullah my self and he told me that he will personally look into them but he can't make any promises! You offers however are appreciated..

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## kollang

IRAN also won s-korea with 6 goals.but now they have the better footbal team.

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## Kompromat

Banu Umayyah said:


> After 20 page of reading, my conclusion is I have no ******* clue about military stuff.
> @ Pakistani & Turki brothers
> I have forwarded your military offers to king Abdullah my self and he told me that he will personally look into them but he can't make any promises! You offers however are appreciated..



What? You personally know the King?

Anyway , the way i look at it is that Al khalid tanks dont meet Saudi reqirements for a heavy MBT and Altay MBT is still a paper tiger , undoubtedly though it fulfills all requirements for Saudi contract but it still has to be prototyped , tested and prove itself in combat to attract customers which will take years.

IMHO Leopards are the best choice at this time.



Deno said:


> I don't think any tank could match Leo 2a7s in open field or in urban warfare but Leo 2A7 would nothing more than a sitting duck in Indo-Pak environment.
> 
> Thats why Pak went for Al-Khalid and India went for Arjun although from what I hear Arjun
> wasn't a success story unlike Al-Khalid



Your assessment is spot on , our terrain is a deathbed for tanks over 60 tonnes , reminds me of the reason why PA refused to buy Abrahams in 80s.

Leopards are world's most advanced breed of tanks and are well suited for Saudi conditions after some modifications .

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## Sinnerman108

As engineers, we appreciate a simple rule.

If its not German, it's not engineered properly.

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## Oldman1

Shahin Vatani said:


> Trust me Iran is not aggressive, we are very peaceful. If we wanted to be aggressive Saudi wouldn't be around anymore to tell the tale.



Its not being aggressive, its being smart when you think about the U.S. intervening when Iran invades Saudi Arabia. Its about not trying to act like Iraq because there be consequences.


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## Armstrong

Deno said:


> I don't think any tank could match Leo 2a7s in open field or in urban warfare but Leo 2A7 would nothing more than a sitting duck in Indo-Pak environment.
> 
> Thats why Pak went for Al-Khalid and India went for Arjun although from what I hear Arjun wasn't a success story unlike Al-Khalid



*Deno*, I think our Al-Khalids with a pair of Butterflys and perhaps an Aghanim would own your Altay and the Leos !  Not to mention its Ulti would make Axe crap his pants or whatever the heck hes wearing !

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## Banana

Deno said:


> I don't think any tank could match Leo 2a7s in open field or in urban warfare but Leo 2A7 would nothing more than a sitting duck in Indo-Pak environment.
> 
> Thats why Pak went for Al-Khalid and India went for Arjun although from what I hear Arjun wasn't a success story unlike Al-Khalid



Al-Khalid is a License Production of a Copied Design. It has to be Successful.

While Arjun was the Victim of the Russian Import Lobby in the Army.


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## farhan_9909

KSA made the best choice 

at present there is a huge difference b/w AK and LEO 2

al khalid would had been a good choice instead of t90 long back

bt against leo

leo is the ruling choice

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## Bubblegum Crisis

Aeronaut said:


> ...Altay MBT is still a paper tiger...



More again for very long.




Aeronaut said:


> ...undoubtedly though it fulfills all requirements for Saudi contract but it still has to be prototyped , tested and prove itself in combat to attract customers which will take years.



Do especially not worry for the glory future of &#8220;Altay Tank&#8221; when we know who these two very very great brothers. Simultaneously, the Leopard 2 Tank (Germany) and the K-2 Black Panther Tank (South Korea). 

The K-2 Black Panther Tank of South Korea - the main model of Altay Tank (South Korea TOT) - has been fully designed and developed under the leadership of Germany by a total transfer of technology (Leopard 2 Tank TOT). So Altay Tank will be their equal fully. 


*K-2 Black Panther Tank*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ToCVdVpcPg&feature=player_embedded

South Korea Next Generation Tank XK2 - YouTube



*With its &#8220;protective armor&#8221; (AMAP)*


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## Bubblegum Crisis

Soon in the futur &#8220;Altay Tank&#8221;...

*K-2 Tank APS (Active Protection System)
3D search & track radar / thermal search & track*








*Russia Metis-M1 interception slowly*








*APS (Active Protection System) testing against RPG-7 and
Metis-M ATGM (Anti-tank guided missile) or also Kornet ATGM (Anti-tank guided missile)*













*Explosive projectile interceptor (blast effect)*

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## Bubblegum Crisis

The manufacturing process of Altay Tank will be almost similar to this.

*Modernization M1 Abrams:*

















And when Altay Tank will be finally completed, KSA no doubt will be customer and subsequently just after industrial partner.

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## Mosamania

Banu Umayyah said:


> After 20 page of reading, my conclusion is I have no ******* clue about military stuff.
> @ Pakistani & Turki brothers
> I have forwarded your military offers to king Abdullah my self and he told me that he will personally look into them but he can't make any promises! You offers however are appreciated..



I saw him today at the funeral in my city had a good chat with him about the economy but I totally forgot to bring up the tanks subject ( really I also saw the king of Spain and GCC leaders I was with the welcoming party) 

Yeah my Ego meter is on maximum right now.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Very nice tank, congrat for Saudi.

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## Tihamah

leopard 2A7+ is the best tank in the world with out any doubt (for those who knows any thing about tanks not internet experts who read numbers and evaluate weapons from arm chairs), its the only tank superior to Abrams, i'm glad we got it fully upgraded from the germans as well, since the US rarely sell us a fully upgraded weapon.

i'm happy my goverment finally realized the importance of aqcurining the leopards, because in 1988 germany refused to sell them to Saudi Arabia under the pressure from the US and zionist lobby in germany (Leopard was number one in trials that took place in sharorah in 1988 with challnger, Abrams, Leclerc and brazilian tank) , but now with germany been more free from the US grip and europe going to bankruptcy they will sell us every thing we want literally, we should use this chance now! to aqcuire more advanced weapons with transfer of technology.

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## Bubblegum Crisis

Tihamah said:


> leopard 2A7+ is the best tank in the world with out any doubt (for those who knows any thing about tanks not internet experts who read numbers and evaluate weapons from arm chairs), its the only tank superior to Abrams, *i'm glad we got it fully upgraded from the germans as well, since the US rarely sell us a fully upgraded weapon.*
> 
> ...




*Now, there will no more problems with best updating tank of future model &#8220;Leopard 2 Tank&#8221; in the Army of Saudi Arabia. Not need help (Desire) from Germany in the futur.

The Turkey has already done all the best updates on the &#8220;Leopard 2A4 Tank&#8221; to new standard &#8220;Leopard 2NG&#8221; (Next Generation). They have all the necessary expertise and will continue without difficulties to make those new updates.*

I repeat it again in situation some people have not properly understood.

The future &#8220;Altay Tank&#8221; has for origin two great brothers. Simultaneously, the Leopard 2 Tank (Germany) and the K-2 Black Panther Tank (South Korea).

The K-2 Black Panther Tank of South Korea - the main model of Altay Tank (South Korea TOT) - has been fully designed and developed under the leadership of Germany by a total transfer of technology (Leopard 2 Tank TOT). So Altay Tank will be their equal fully.

But, the Saudi Arabia buys a large number of &#8220;Leopard 2 Tank&#8221; now because it needs immediately again tank for ensure its security pending the &#8220;Altay Tank&#8221; will be finally completed.

*But it's a certainty. The &#8220;Leopard 2 Tank&#8221; was selected by Saudi Arabia for in the future directly interact with the technological industrial defense of its ally Turkey who masters already this technology fully.*


*More informations see links:*

http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...ee-f-15s-helicopters-more-11.html#post2917685

http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...ee-f-15s-helicopters-more-11.html#post2917691

http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...ee-f-15s-helicopters-more-11.html#post2920359

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-forum/118240-leopard-2a7-saudi-arabia-3.html#post2997203

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-forum/118240-leopard-2a7-saudi-arabia-3.html#post2997223

http://www.defence.pk/forums/turkey-defence/173846-altay-savunma-ve-havac-l-k-dergisi.html

http://www.defence.pk/forums/turkey-defence/173846-altay-savunma-ve-havac-l-k-dergisi-2.html

http://www.defence.pk/forums/turkey-defence/173846-altay-savunma-ve-havac-l-k-dergisi-3.html

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-photos-multimedia/157113-made-turkey-15.html#post3034147

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## Armstrong

@* Bubblegum Crisis* : Mate, I'd have to check with Cabattli and other Turks but I'm not sure that the Altay development was ever instigated as a TOT from South Korea ! I was under the impression that the South Koreans did have some kind of input into the Altay program but nothing to the extent to suggest that the Altays are heavily derived from the K-2 let alone being a licensed production of it, as the TOT part implied. Or am I reading your post incorrectly ?


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## Bubblegum Crisis

Armstrong said:


> @* Bubblegum Crisis* : Mate, I'd have to check with Cabattli and other Turks but I'm not sure that the Altay development was ever instigated as a TOT from South Korea ! I was under the impression that the South Koreans did have some kind of input into the Altay program but nothing to the extent to suggest that the Altays are heavily derived from the K-2 let alone being a licensed production of it, as the TOT part implied. Or am I reading your post incorrectly ?



*Quote :*

*Altay Main Battle Tank, Turkey*





*army-technology.com*

Altay is the third generation+ main battle tank (MBT) of the Republic of Turkey and is being indigenously developed under the Milli Tank Üretim Projesi ALTAY (MITÜP ALTAY) programme (Altay National Tank Project). Altay will be the first national MBT developed for the Turkish Land Forces Command (TLFC).

The Turkish National Main Battle Tank Project began in 2005. In September 2010 the conceptual design phase of Altay was completed. The tank is currently in the detailed design phase which is planned to take about 30 months. The first prototype is expected to be ready by 2015.

Turkey intends to build 250 MITÜP Altay MBTs initially, and ultimately produce 1,000 new tanks in four separate lots of 250 units. Altay will incorporate the most modern features of a tank. The Turkish MBT will have a crew of four &#8211; driver, gunner, loader and the commander.

*Altay main battle tank development*

The Undersecreteriat for Defense Industries (SSM) embarked on the National Tank project to improve the technical capabilities of Turkish defence and to increase the domestic contribution towards national defence.

The tank is named after the Army General Fahrettin Altay, who commanded the V Cavalry Corps during the Turkish War of Independence. Development of the Altay tank will be completed in three phases.

The Defence Industrial Executive Committee (SSIK), the Turkey's defence industrial procurement decision-making body, selected the contractor Otokar in March 2007, through a competition.

The $500m contract includes design, development and integration of Altay and qualification of the tank through prototypes and testing.

*Work on the Altay project began in August 2008 at the Otokar factory and is projected for completion in 2016. Otokar will develop four prototypes for testing. Altay will use the technology systems developed for the South Korean K2 MBT by Hyundai Rotem. Serial production will begin after successful testing of the prototypes. Turkey will own the design and intellectual property rights.*

*Altay main battle tank design and features*

A 3D image of Altay was revealed to the public in August 2010.

The tank will have a conventional layout. The power pack will be in the rear, driver seating in the front and fighting compartment in the middle. The loader will be on the left side of the turret, while the commander will sit on the right side of the turret. The gunner will sit on the same side as the commander but in a more forward and lower position.

*Altay will have the stronger chassis characteristics of the K2 Black Panther MBT. It will have a re-designed Turkish turret and heavier armour than the K2. It will also have seven tracked wheels and a longer hull. A decision on the suspension system and other systems has yet to be finalised.
*
*Fire control*

The tank will use an advanced computerised Volkan-III modular (or National Cannon Fire Control System For Naval Platforms (TAKS)) fire-control system (FCS). It is being developed by Aselsan, which has partnered with STM, the software division of SSM, for developing the command, control and information systems.

*Armament*

Altay will be equipped with a 120mm L/55 smoothbore gun. It will be fitted with a muzzle reference system, a thermal sleeve and fume extractor. The ammunition will be stowed in the turret bustle with blow out panels on the roof. The tank will also have a 7.62mm machine gun mounted in coaxial to the right of the main armament. A 12.7mm heavy machine gun will be mounted on the right of the turret for commander operation.

*Self-protection*

The front side of the tank will have special modular reactive composite armour protection. The tank will be designed to resist chemical, biological and radiological (CBR) attacks.

Both the gunner and the commander will be provided with stabilised day/thermal sights. They are expected to be incorporated with a laser range-finder having hunter-killer capability.

*Propulsion*

*The first two batches of Altay tanks will be powered by MTU Friedrichshafen 1,500hp (1,100kW) diesel engines. The engine will be coupled to a Renk transmission. An indigenous 1,800hp (1,300kW) engine is currently under development in Turkey and will be used in the last two batches of the tank. The tank will have a maximum speed of 70km/h and manoeuvrability at depths of 4.1m in water.*

*Contractors*

*Koç Group company Otokar is the main contractor for the Altay MBT development programme. The technology systems transfer licensing will be provided by Hyundai Rotem, which will also offer technical support and assistance in the tank development.

Aselsan will be responsible for the sub-systems and fire control system. The state-owned ammunition producer Makine ve Kimya Endustrisi Kurumu (MKE) will produce the main gun system, while Roketsan will develop and produce the armour package. The subcontractors will be responsible for integration of the respective equipment in the tank in cooperation with Otokar.
*

*See link Article:*

Altay Main Battle Tank - Army Technology









*Hyundai Rotem &#8220;K2 Black Panther Tank&#8221;*

*See link PDF :*

http://www.rotem.co.kr/Eng/Common/data/k2_tramcar.pdf


continuation...


*See other link official:*

https://www.hyundai-rotem.co.kr/Eng/Business/Machine/Product/k2_tramcar.asp

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## cabatli_53

First of all, Altay design has nothing to do with XK-2. Armour blocks will be heavier, wider and turret shape is looking a mixture of Leopard 2A6, Merkava and Leclerc, but never XK-2. Different than XK-2, Driver section is stationed in the middile of chassis having 7 wheels instead 6 XK-2 has. Total combat weight of Altay is way heavier than XK-2. Altay have designed to be operated by 4 crew, While XK-2 has just 3 crew with auto-loader gun system. 


About Cooperation with S. Korea, Turkey benefits from the expertise of Hyundai Rotem as designer of XK-2 to design Altay, built own armour blocks. Neither There is a licence agreement made with Korea, nor Turkey made an agreement to improve XK-2 design in accordance with own benefits. Altay is totally a different story in tank development history... There will be sole owner of altay design. It is neither Otokar, nor Aselsan or MKEK. It is SSM (Undersecretariat of Turkish defence industry)...

Altay will be serially produced in here...

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## Bubblegum Crisis

cabatli_53 said:


> First of all, Altay design has nothing to do with XK-2. Armour blocks will be heavier, wider and turret shape is looking a mixture of Leopard 2A6, Merkava and Leclerc, but never XK-2. Different than XK-2, Driver section is stationed in the middile of chassis having 7 wheels instead 6 XK-2 has. Total combat weight of Altay is way heavier than XK-2. Altay have designed to be operated by 4 crew, While XK-2 has just 3 crew with auto-loader gun system.
> 
> 
> About Cooperation with S. Korea, Turkey benefits from the expertise of Hyundai Rotem as designer of XK-2 to design Altay, built own armour blocks. Neither There is a licence agreement made with Korea, nor Turkey made an agreement to improve XK-2 design in accordance with own benefits. Altay is totally a different story in tank development history... There will be sole owner of altay design. It is neither Otokar, nor Aselsan or MKEK. It is SSM (Undersecretariat of Turkish defence industry)...
> 
> Altay will be serially produced in here...




Brother, all this is true.

Turkey slowly but surely, over tens of years, has become masters this technology fully. Essentially by its own hard work.

Turkey has all the capabilities industrial and technological to develop its own tank all alone. But a little help from a country faithful big friend &#8211; South Korea &#8211; &#8220;does no harm to anyone&#8221;. On the contrary, it unites advantage.

Long life friendship Turkey-South Korea.

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## Bubblegum Crisis

cabatli_53 said:


> First of all, Altay design has nothing to do with XK-2. ...Altay have designed to be operated by 4 crew, While XK-2 has just 3 crew with auto-loader gun system.
> 
> ...


 

Brother.

Personally I would have preferred for &#8220;Altay Tank&#8221; &#8211; as South Korea - to be operated by 3 crew with &#8220;auto-loader gun system&#8221;. Faster to hit following. Exhaust less men.


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## Mosamania

Bubblegum Crisis said:


> Brother.
> 
> Personally I would have preferred for &#8220;Altay Tank&#8221; &#8211; as South Korea - to be operated by 3 crew with &#8220;auto-loader gun system&#8221;. Faster to hit following. Exhaust less men.



Actually right now the 4 man crew is preferred again. In Combat a person can load the ammunition faster than the auto-loader. And with the silver bullet gun battles these days this may make the difference between life and death for many.

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## BordoEnes

Bubblegum Crisis said:


> Brother.
> 
> Personally I would have preferred for &#8220;Altay Tank&#8221; &#8211; as South Korea - to be operated by 3 crew with &#8220;auto-loader gun system&#8221;. Faster to hit following. Exhaust less men.



Well auto-loader gun systems are not always a good thing, In many occasions auto-loader gun systems proved to be unreliable and jammed many times. In a war time you will be death in mather of seconds if such a thing happens. 4 Men crew always is more reliable.

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## Bubblegum Crisis

BordoEnes said:


> Well auto-loader gun systems are not always a good thing, *In many occasions auto-loader gun systems proved to be unreliable and jammed many times. *In a war time you will be death in mather of seconds if such a thing happens. 4 Men crew always is more reliable.



I also think. But still, without &#8220;auto-loader gun systems&#8221;. In very high intense combat, the pace can be very very hard for the men. And this is not good for maintain concentration of the mind and the moral also of the unit.


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## Mosamania

Bubblegum Crisis said:


> I also think. But still, without &#8220;auto-loader gun systems&#8221;. In high intense combat, the pace can be very very hard for the men.



And that is what training is all about.


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## Bubblegum Crisis

Mosamania said:


> And that is what training is all about.




Of course. But the choice is always difficult. &#8220;Auto-loader gun systems&#8221; or not &#8220;auto-loader gun systems&#8221;. Always for the same reasons.

The tank AMX Leclerc (France) has a &#8220;auto-loader gun systems&#8221;.


















But also Tank S.Korea, Japon, Russia and China.








M1 A2 Tank (Abrams) with not &#8220;auto-loader gun systems&#8221;.













Leopard 2A4. Not &#8220;auto-loader gun systems&#8221;.


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## Serpentine

The ones who are trying to prove that KSA is buying these stuff against Iran.You are wrong,a war between two countries is the worst thing that can happen in ME.We are at each other's throats,right,but war is not in our interests,neither us nor Saudis.
The best thing that can happen for western world is that 2 Muslim countries fight each other,and our problems are not that huge to require a war.

Besides,why the hell would Saudi Arabia buy tanks against Iran?We don't share any border ,or maybe these are sailing tanks that I'm not aware of them.

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## lem34

Era_923 said:


> The ones who are trying to prove that KSA is buying these stuff against Iran.You are wrong,a war between two countries is the worst thing that can happen in ME.We are at each other's throats,right,but war is not in our interests,neither us nor Saudis.
> The best thing that can happen for western world is that 2 Muslim countries fight each other,and our problems are not that huge to require a war.
> 
> Besides,why the hell would Saudi Arabia buy tanks against Iran?We don't share any border ,or maybe these are sailing tanks that I'm not aware of them.



Good comment to hear from you brother. You are right only enemies of Muslims want Muslims to kill each other

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## lem34

Bubblegum Crisis said:


> Really? No, it&#8217;s so funny.
> 
> Ask big ayatollah Khamenei and to colleagues friends Shia Mullahs. Take the opportunity to ask also tens of thousands of Sunnis massacred - men, women, old man, children - in Syria, Iraq and Lebanon in 32 years.



Shame on you. Do you not have any decorum as to how one should behave when someone gives you an olive branch.

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## opz

Era_923 said:


> The ones who are trying to prove that KSA is buying these stuff against Iran.You are wrong,a war between two countries is the worst thing that can happen in ME.We are at each other's throats,right,but war is not in our interests,neither us nor Saudis.
> The best thing that can happen for western world is that 2 Muslim countries fight each other,and our problems are not that huge to require a war.
> 
> Besides,why the hell would Saudi Arabia buy tanks against Iran?We don't share any border ,or maybe these are sailing tanks that I'm not aware of them.



*nice to hear that from some iranian people , but if u really want peace with arabs , stop support the dictator Al-asad . .​*

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## Kompromat

Thread has effectively been trashed by trolls. I didn't know 800 leopards could cause such a stir , i wish they buy 800 more.

Please close this thread down. MODS

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## lem34

Era_923 said:


> Suicide bombers maybe?



 did not think of that. You know him better than me

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## Kompromat

Era_923 said:


> Almost all of threads in this forum are trashed by trolls,so cool off,this is normal.



No disrespect but most of it is coming from the lunatic endless d1ck measuring contest between Persians and Arabs without any reason whatsoever.


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## Mosamania

Era_923 said:


> The ones who are trying to prove that KSA is buying these stuff against Iran.You are wrong,a war between two countries is the worst thing that can happen in ME.We are at each other's throats,right,but war is not in our interests,neither us nor Saudis.
> The best thing that can happen for western world is that 2 Muslim countries fight each other,and our problems are not that huge to require a war.
> 
> Besides,why the hell would Saudi Arabia buy tanks against Iran?We don't share any border ,or maybe these are sailing tanks that I'm not aware of them.



Thank you for this wonderful post. Iran has been by far iur greatest ticket to improve our Military modernization program unhindered.

Technologies and Equipment that were previously extremely banned for us became readily available with the Iranian excuse.


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## Serpentine

Aeronaut said:


> No disrespect but most of it is coming from the lunatic endless d1ck measuring contest between Persians and Arabs without any reason whatsoever.



Not only this,also Indians vs Pakistanis,Bangals vs Indians,Chinese vs Indians,Turks vs Iranians.If you want to look from this view,all of us are lunatics,right?

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## Oldman1

opz said:


> *for one reason i do it that , cuz in every ur posts and comments ur attack my country , everybody here see that , for that don't blame us if i talk with u by same language
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . .​*



Anybody who is anti Assad would be portrayed as American or Zionist lackeys. Thats all they can do. They don't think that Saudi Arabia and other countries have their own interests.


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## Kompromat

Aryan_B said:


> Yea but your armies in modern times have shown a distinct lack of capability. I mean I can give you an F16 you still need a pilot to operate it



Saudis by far are the best trained pilots in middle east after Israel.

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## opz

Oldman1 said:


> Anybody who is anti Assad would be portrayed as American or Zionist lackeys. Thats all they can do. They don't think that Saudi Arabia and other countries have their own interests.



*read history if u want know who is lackeys for American and Zionist , who is the ruler, who toured the Zionist aircraft over his house and did not do anything , It was the occupation of the Golan's ruling and did not do anything, and most of this system that Israel did not vote for the Security Council against the Syrian regime, and the most surprising from this that the Syrian regime literally says that Israel's security is the security of Syria !!​*


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## Kompromat

Era_923 said:


> Not only this,also Indians vs Pakistanis,Bangals vs Indians,Chinese vs Indians,Turks vs Iranians.If you want to look from this view,all of us are lunatics,right?



There are reasons for debate amongst others , there is none between persians and arabs , nothing but ego on steroids.

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## The SC

The SC said:


> The technology is very advanced and I think even Pakistan will want to get it hands on a few.
> Although I am pretty sure the Altay will be a very advanced Tank, it is still in the making and not ready or tested thoroughly.
> There is most probably some future procuremnt projects for the Altay and AlKhalid MBT to supplement and complement the Abrams and the leopards.
> 
> 
> leopard 2 revolution upgrade



The technology is very advanced and I think even Pakistan will want to get its hands on a few Leopards Evolution upgrade.

The Altay MBT





AlKhalid MBT


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## VelocuR

nabil_05 said:


> *Hunter Killer system is a capability that allows an mbt to look around 360 degree battlefield and track and engage enemy on earliest basis. This technology has been the focal point in modern western MBT philosophy and today all modern western, some easternbts have this capability. Soviet/ Russian and even early Ukrainian mbts lacked this function. T-72, T-80 and even T-90S does not have this but Chinese T-98/99 series DO have it. Hunter Killer consists of independent commander and gunner thermal imagers, laser range finders, and an auto tracking facility. This capability is further aided with an advanced Battle Management System, allowing the tank crew a more comprehensive battlefield awareness. *
> 
> Regarding engaging Merks, M1A2s, i do not see any reason why AK cannot engage them with efficient HK and day night capabiliity with a powerful gun and ammunition, not to mention the missile firing ability with tandem warheads. This is why it is so important to see first-engage first and where panoramic sight and HK comes in to equation.
> 
> *Chinese have been impressed by our thermal imager integration, efficient 6td2 engine and auto transmission, and BMS integration so early and they have opted for the same in their new 99A, 99B series, MBT 3000 series. *
> 
> MBTs with Hunter Killer function:
> 
> *AK, AK-1 series (PAK)*
> Oplot, T-84U series (Ukraine)
> M1A2 series (US)
> Challenger2 series (UK)
> Merkava 3, 4 series (Israel)
> Leopard 2A,4,5,6 series (Germany)
> Type-90, Type-10 series (Japan)
> K1A1, K2 BP series (SK)
> T-90M (portable BMS device) (Russia)
> T-90MS (Russia)
> Leclerc (France)
> 
> Tanks without Hunter Killer
> 
> T-64, 72, T-80 and 90S series (Russia, Ukraine)
> 
> T-84 basic (Ukraine)





nabil_05 said:


> Asad Babil (Iraqi t72) was a downgraded version of a standard T-72 that had everything monkeyed about it from its gun which was although 125 mm smoothbore but had horrible accuracy and gun pressure was not sufficient to provide enough shell velocity. There were many drawbacks found in engine and transmission by Americans who gave a few test rides in remaining T-72. Even the shells provided were downgraded from standard Soviet shells and the worst part was the armour which was even thinner than an M-60A. No wonder Abrams and Challies dominated a severely "downgraded" Asad Babil.



...............

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## Serpentine

Mosamania said:


> Thank you for this wonderful post. Iran has been by far iur greatest ticket to improve our Military modernization program unhindered.
> 
> Technologies and Equipment that were previously extremely banned for us became readily available with the Iranian excuse.


You're welcome.Anything else you want?
Even enemies do some good for each other sometimes.

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## Oldman1

Era_923 said:


> You're welcome.Anything else you want?
> Even enemies do some good for each other sometimes.



Hell yeah. World War 2 helped us with nuke weapons. Vietnam helped us with guided weaponry. Each war hot and cold pushes the envelope in weapons tech and will keep going. Depending on the situation it could go fast or slow in R&D.

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## Banglar Lathial

Oldman1 said:


> Hell yeah. World War 2 helped us with nuke weapons. Vietnam helped us with guided weaponry. Each war hot and cold pushes the envelope in weapons tech and will keep going. Depending on the situation it could go fast or slow in R&D.



None of those wars affected USA's mainland. If USA's mainland is attacked in a world war, it could be interesting to see what weapons technology could be developed by them under those circumstances?


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## Mosamania

Era_923 said:


> You're welcome.Anything else you want?
> Even enemies do some good for each other sometimes.



Yes we want you to get nukes so we can get ones as well.

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## lem34

Mosamania said:


> Yes we want you to get nukes so we can get ones as well.



Perhaps Iran and Saudi could work together on nukes? Go phone your King Mossa ask him if he will agree. We as neutral Pakistanis would love to supply both Iran and Saudi at very fair price. It will stop Israel from its threats in the region

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## Mosamania

Aryan_B said:


> Perhaps Iran and Saudi could work together on nukes? Go phone your King Mossa ask him if he will agree. We as neutral Pakistanis would love to supply both Iran and Saudi at very fair price. It will stop Israel from its threats in the region



No No No. I personally will be the first one against any collaboration with the Iranian regime.


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## lem34

Mosamania said:


> No No No. I personally will be the first one against any collaboration with the Iranian regime.



What about buying from us. Actually according to some we are storing the same for you. When you ready for delivery? Would you mind if we sell a few to every nation in ME including Iran lol

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## Armstrong

Aryan_B said:


> Perhaps Iran and Saudi could work together on nukes? Go phone your King Mossa ask him if he will agree. *We as neutral Pakistanis would love to supply both Iran and Saudi at very fair price.* It will stop Israel from its threats in the region



Buttty you're going to get us lynched by the West, the East and whatevers in between ! AQ Khan, allegedly, proliferated only a few blueprints for centrifuges and we were foOked....imagine what would a full-fledged 'nuke' would do to us ! So no...no nukes for the Saudis or the Iranians...not until we're in the same league as China and Russia and can, consequently, brush aside any such criticism without getting slaughtered in turn !

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## Oldman1

Banglar Lathial said:


> None of those wars affected USA's mainland. If USA's mainland is attacked in a world war, it could be interesting to see what weapons technology could be developed by them under those circumstances?



Study the American Civil War.

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## Tihamah

Bubblegum Crisis said:


> *Now, there will no more problems with best updating tank of future model Leopard 2 Tank in the Army of Saudi Arabia.......etc*


*

Ok i know you are trying so hard to market turkish-german tank to us, but just to let you know me and the other Saudi Arabians in this forum are not the ones who signing the contracts, so take it easy and relax, what ever you write to us here have zero effect specially if you know we are not descision makers that signs billions of dollars contracts...

on the other hand Saudi Arabia is buying Leopard A27+ (not Leopard 2 pr Leopard A4 etc), this one is only manufactured in germany and it is the latest and most modern model of Leopard tanks, even german army did not receive them yet, first we need to increase our arsenal of 5th generations tanks, then after that when we have like 2000 5th generarion thousands tanks we might look for cheaper tanks to increase the numbers higher.

any way, acquiring the best tank in the world for your land is the best choice to make*


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## lem34

Armstrong said:


> Buttty you're going to get us lynched by the West, the East and whatevers in between ! AQ Khan, allegedly, proliferated only a few blueprints for centrifuges and we were foOked....imagine what would a full-fledged 'nuke' would do to us ! So no...no nukes for the Saudis or the Iranians...not until we're in the same league as China and Russia and can, consequently, brush aside any such criticism without getting slaughtered in turn !



Well we are already getting lynched by west so not much will change there. Stop worrying yaar.

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## Armstrong

Aryan_B said:


> Well we are already getting lynched by west so not much will change there. *Stop worrying yaar*.



Lets hope that when the going gets tough...you don't go from this : 








To this : 








And in the process get my butttt kicked !

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## killerx

buy as much as they can atleast 2000


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## Bubblegum Crisis

Tihamah said:


> leopard 2A7+ is the best tank in the world with out any doubt (for those who knows any thing about tanks not internet experts who read numbers and evaluate weapons from arm chairs), its the only tank superior to Abrams, *i'm glad we got it fully upgraded from the germans as well, since the US rarely sell us a fully upgraded weapon.
> *
> ...





Bubblegum Crisis said:


> *Now, there will no more problems with best updating tank of future model &#8220;Leopard 2 Tank&#8221; in the Army of Saudi Arabia. Not need help (Desire) from Germany in the futur.
> 
> The Turkey has already done all the best updates on the &#8220;Leopard 2A4 Tank&#8221; to new standard &#8220;Leopard 2NG&#8221; (Next Generation). They have all the necessary expertise and will continue without difficulties to make those new updates.*
> 
> I repeat it again in situation some people have not properly understood.
> 
> The future &#8220;Altay Tank&#8221; has for origin two great brothers. Simultaneously, the Leopard 2 Tank (Germany) and the K-2 Black Panther Tank (South Korea).
> 
> The K-2 Black Panther Tank of South Korea - the main model of Altay Tank (South Korea TOT) - has been fully designed and developed under the leadership of Germany by a total transfer of technology (Leopard 2 Tank TOT). So Altay Tank will be their equal fully.
> 
> But, the Saudi Arabia buys a large number of &#8220;Leopard 2 Tank&#8221; now because it needs immediately again tank for ensure its security pending the &#8220;Altay Tank&#8221; will be finally completed.
> 
> *But it's a certainty. The &#8220;Leopard 2 Tank&#8221; was selected by Saudi Arabia for in the future directly interact with the technological industrial defense of its ally Turkey who masters already this technology fully.
> *





Tihamah said:


> Ok i know you are trying so hard to market turkish-german tank to us, but just to let you know me and the other Saudi Arabians in this forum are not the ones who signing the contracts, so take it easy and relax, what ever you write to us here have zero effect specially if you know we are not descision makers that signs billions of dollars contracts...
> 
> *on the other hand Saudi Arabia is buying Leopard A27+ (not Leopard 2 pr Leopard A4 etc), this one is only manufactured in germany and it is the latest and most modern model of Leopard tanks, even german army did not receive them yet&#8230;*



This has absolutely nothing to do with what I want or what you want. This is based only on facts.

First of all, the new standard &#8220;Leopard 2NG&#8221; (Next Generation) - updates &#8220;Leopard 2A4 Tank&#8221; made by Aselsan &#8211; is identical capabilities of &#8220;Leopard 2A6&#8221; and almost similar to Germany high level &#8220;Leopard 2A7&#8221;.

Turkey over tens of years has become masters this technology fully on the &#8220;German Leopard Tank&#8221;. By its own hard work. And now she has all the necessary expertise and will continue without difficulties to make those updates all NATO standards, what specifically needed KSA.


*Leopard 2NG (Next Generation)*









*See also old links:*

http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...ee-f-15s-helicopters-more-11.html#post2917685

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-forum/118240-leopard-2a7-saudi-arabia-3.html#post2997203

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-forum/118240-leopard-2a7-saudi-arabia-3.html#post2997223



*Spanish &#8220;Leopard 2A6&#8221; *







*Canadian &#8220;Leopard 2A6M CAN&#8221;*















*Leopard 2A7*

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## Bubblegum Crisis

KSA has chosen specifically the &#8220;Leopard 2A7+ Tank&#8221; - rather than the new M1 A2SEP (System Enhancement Package) of USA yet available for equip KSA - for in the future directly interact with the technological industrial defense of its ally Turkey who is now masters of tank technology (Totally, once the &#8220;Altay Tank&#8221; completed). Why? For get now its total military strategic freedom independently of interest USA with its tank M1 A2S, currently in the KSA army, but without any technology transfer.

The May 24, 2010 in Ankara the KSA government signed a agreement strategic military history for Training, Scientific and Technical Cooperation with Turkey. In the biggest arms companies in the country (TAI, Aselsan, MKE, Otokar, FNSS etc&#8230, equipment together of future implementation collaborations common (TOT and R&D) in the development of new weapons with the Turkey government.


Turkish Chief of General Staff Gen. &#304;lker Ba&#351;bu&#287; sign agreement with Saudi Arabian Deputy Minister of Defense and Aviation Prince Khalid Bin Sultan Bin Abdulaziz Al Saud.











Gül Receives Saudi Arabian Deputy Minister of Defense and Aviation Prince Khalid Bin Sultan Bin Abdulaziz Al Saud prior to the signing agreement.
















And whenever it will feasible. It will act the same way with the help of his Turkish ally.

Like this&#8230;


*See old links :*

*FNSS Saudi factory*

http://www.defence.pk/forums/turkey-defence/175145-fnss-saudi-factory.html

http://www.defence.pk/forums/turkey-defence/175145-fnss-saudi-factory-2.html


*Saudi air force prepares for Anatolian Eagle 2*

http://www.defence.pk/forums/turkey-defence/182912-saudi-air-force-prepares-anatolian-eagle-2-a.html

http://www.defence.pk/forums/turkey...air-force-prepares-anatolian-eagle-2-a-2.html


*Turkish-Saudi (and GCC) military, economic and political cooperation*

http://www.defence.pk/forums/turkey-defence/187719-turkish-saudi-ccg-military-cooperation.html#post3060160

Military cooperation agreement signed between Turkey and Saudi Arabia

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## lem34

Armstrong said:


> Lets hope that when the going gets tough...you don't go from this :
> 
> 
> And in the process get my butttt kicked !



You know Butty reputation my friend lol

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## JUBA

Are Saudi Arabia Also Getting The New ((Leopard 2NG)) ????

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## Rig Vedic

Saudi's should consider buying Arjun MK-II, lower cost and very competitive performance, if not better. Unfortunately it's caught up in politics in India, but the product is good.


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## Nishan_101

Much better if they have done JV with ukraine to Produce Tanks, Self propelled Howetzers and other armored vehicles they need although they are good at producing themselves too.


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## Grand-Vizier

leopard NG aselsan beast


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## Stealth

I don't know but i feel the use of Tanks in Modern Warfare is totally useless. Why because the Airforce - Heavy bombers/multirole fighters/Missiles/Launchers hardware completely changed the game.


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## Mosamania

Stealth said:


> I don't know but i feel the use of Tanks in Modern Warfare is totally useless. Why because the Airforce - Heavy bombers/multirole fighters/Missiles/Launchers hardware completely changed the game.



The Air Force clears the way... But they clear the way for whom?? None other than ground troops.


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## Grand-Vizier

Clear the ground with your air force , then bring in the tanks.


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## Umair Nawaz

So no Al Khalid for Saudia Arabia...


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## Arabian Legend

Umair Nawaz said:


> So no Al Khalid for Saudia Arabia...



al-khailed was previously tested in the kingdom sadly didn't meet with the requirement in that desert


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## Zarvan

Arabian Legend said:


> al-khailed was previously tested in the kingdom sadly didn't meet with the requirement in that desert



By 2025 How many Tanks Saudi Army wants to have ?


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## Umair Nawaz

Arabian Legend said:


> al-khailed was previously tested in the kingdom sadly didn't meet with the requirement in that desert



as per my knowledge it did.....as it is made for desert warfare generally of southern pak where like ME temp reaches 50+ in summer....,

the problems r rumor to be from this gov....as this pres zardari wanted the saudis to give royalties in this deal or some other projects, im not sure.. . 

So the deal didnt got signed.....the detail of that deal is mention in this forum also.


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## Arabian Legend

Umair Nawaz said:


> as per my knowledge it did.....as it is made for desert warfare generally of southern pak where like ME temp reaches 50+ in summer....,
> 
> the problems r rumor to be from this gov....as this pres zardari wanted the saudis to give royalties in this deal or some other projects, im not sure.. .
> 
> So the deal didnt got signed.....the detail of that deal is mention in this forum also.



Im not sure if the deal went on with out any announcement. 



> Al-Khalid is currently in service with the Pakistan Army. *Pakistan also export Al Khalid to various countries like Saudi-Arabia.*



High demand of 'Al-Khalid' tank in modern warfare | The Nation
@Imran Khan may shad some light on this subject.



Zarvan said:


> By 2025 How many Tanks Saudi Army wants to have ?



Im not really sure my approximate estimate 7000~8000.

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## Zarvan

Arabian Legend said:


> Im not sure if the deal went on with out any announcement.
> 
> 
> 
> High demand of 'Al-Khalid' tank in modern warfare | The Nation
> @Imran Khan may shad some light on this subject.
> 
> 
> 
> Im not really sure my approximate estimate 7000~8000.



If your approximate is right than 7000 to 8000 is huge number of Tanks are the producing Abram in Saudi Arabia


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## Arabian Legend

Zarvan said:


> If your approximate is right than 7000 to 8000 is huge number of Tanks are the producing Abram in Saudi Arabia



thats was my own estimate for 17 years is long period reasonable number will go around 4 to 5000.

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## Peaceful Civilian

Zarvan said:


> If your approximate is right than 7000 to 8000 is huge number of Tanks are the producing Abram in Saudi Arabia



It all depends on Oil, if oil is finished, then they will reduce annual budget which can result in the reduction of future plans and military equipment. According to my source, there is no shortage of oil, so no worry. They can easily reach 8,000 tanks till 2025 Including top battle tanks.


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## Zarvan

Peaceful Civlian said:


> It all depends on Oil, if oil is finished, then they will reduce annual budget which can result in the reduction of future plans and military equipment. According to my source, there is no shortage of oil, so no worry. They can easily reach 8,000 tanks till 2025 Including top battle tanks.


Sir please know something before talking Sir by that time they will be huge industrial power Sir and also education hub they are developing huge Industrial zones and they are establishing world class universities more around 120000 Saudi students are studying different subjects in world class universities and are bound to return to teach new universities they are building and also to work in research centers in Saudi Arabia


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## Umair Nawaz

Arabian Legend said:


> Im not sure if the deal went on with out any announcement.
> 
> 
> 
> High demand of 'Al-Khalid' tank in modern warfare | The Nation
> @Imran Khan may shad some light on this subject.
> 
> 
> 
> Im not really sure my approximate estimate 7000~8000.



i think this deal that is mentioned in this thread confirms that AK is not now something Saudia Arabia is looking....


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## T-123456

Arabian Legend said:


> Im not sure if the deal went on with out any announcement.
> 
> 
> 
> High demand of 'Al-Khalid' tank in modern warfare | The Nation
> @Imran Khan may shad some light on this subject.
> 
> 
> 
> Im not really sure my approximate estimate 7000~8000.



Why so many tanks?


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## cabatli_53

Evaluation is proceeding on Altay MBT.


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