# Destroying Myth of Indian Indengious Weapons Capability



## Storm Force

PDF Members seem to have MASSIVE misconception of india,s weapons/military tech capability. This thread will highlight the shear VASTNESS and range of actual military projects in place or in testing.

I have intentionaly picked this multi medi thread so you can all enjoy the pictures

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## Storm Force

Indian Radar Systems ~ ASIAN DEFENCE NEWS


These indian radars are technolgy gained from india link up with israel and the green pine system.

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## Storm Force

Aesa radar technohttp://asian-defence.blogspot.com/2010/08/indias-aesa-radar-development.htmllgy programme 

This core technology will be used to provide AESA radar for the LCA tejas fighterhttp://asian-defence.blogspot.com/2010/08/indias-aesa-radar-development.html

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## Firemaster

youy are writing in too hurry


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## Storm Force

indengious awacs 3 midsized platforms to be operational by 2015

Indian AWACS Moving Forward on 2 Fronts

this excludes the three israeli phalcons which are in service already

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## Firemaster



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## Storm Force

India first sam system now active both Army & Air force

complete with phased radar called rajendra system 

in service orders worth $billions made already AKASH

very impressive system and great achivement by india

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## Storm Force

Dhruv helicopter both armed and utility

there are now around 75 Dhruvs in service in army and navy with orders over 250+ 

build rate is 35 per year

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_Dhruv


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## White Owl

Storm Force said:


> PDF Members seem to have MASSIVE misconception of india,s weapons/military tech capability. This thread will highlight the shear VASTNESS and range of actual military projects in place or in testing.
> 
> I have intentionall picked this multi meadi thread so you can all enjoy the pictures


 
no one cares

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## Firemaster

White Owl said:


> no one cares


 
Neither we

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## WARRANT

White Owl said:


> no one cares


 
Atleast you do. That's why u commented.

Epic Fail.

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## Storm Force

The success of the Dhruv has led india to develope this attack choppers 

159 have been ordered wuith delivery to start 2012

LCH 

HAL Light Combat Helicopter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## Storm Force

Of course before i move to Navy the much delayed criticised LCA programme

has to be listed

IOC achieved and 40 on order as we spk for mk1


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## Storm Force

Arjun tanks yet another much maligned project not without reason i must add.

We finally have 124 mk1 in service WITH 124 more on order.

THE MK2 version is in testing as we speak EXPECT INDIA TOO FIELD OVER 500 ARJUN MK1 & 2 BY 2020

[video]http://www.indyarocks.com/videos/Indian-Army-ARJUN-TANK-VS-T-90-TANK-2155214[/video]

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## Storm Force

no joke indian PM meek & mild little sikh man launches NUCLEAR MISSLE tipped subs






russia played a big role sub is operational as we speak

india building FIVE NUKE SUBS EACH CARRYING 12-16 TIPPED NUKE WAR HEADS

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## jha

Another Xinix.. Good to have another Database..


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## acetophenol

Storm Force said:


> no joke indian PM meek & mild little sikh man launches NUCLEAR MISSLE tipped subs
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> russia played a big role sub is operational as we speak
> 
> india building FIVE NUKE SUBS EACH CARRYING 12-16 TIPPED NUKE WAR HEADS


 the pic in the video is not arihant's


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## Storm Force

From the three armed services its the indian navy leading the indengious way

with aircraft carrier

20+ destroyers & frigates

ie

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## Kompromat

Storm Force said:


> India first sam system now active both Army & Air force
> 
> complete with phased radar called rajendra system
> 
> in service orders worth $billions made already AKASH
> 
> very impressive system and great achivement by india


 
Akash is a rip off SA-6 Gainful - has noting to do with Indian R&D. India upgraded it and called it Akash.


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## Skull and Bones

Aeronaut said:


> Akash is a rip off SA-6 Gainful - has noting to do with Indian R&D. India upgraded it and called it Akash.


 


And your proof is "they look very similar"

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## Nelson

Aeronaut said:


> Akash is a rip off SA-6 Gainful - has noting to do with Indian R&D. *India upgraded it *and called it Akash.


 
That's what an R&D department does..!


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## acetophenol

Aeronaut said:


> Akash is a rip off SA-6 Gainful - has noting to do with Indian R&D. India upgraded it and called it Akash.


them c-17 is a rip off of il-76.

not to mention:

1.apc talha







from

m113 apc






2.baktar shikan atgm






from 
swing fire atgm

data:image/jpg;base64,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## SR 71 Blackbird

Right thread.


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## acetophenol

acetophenol said:


> them c-17 is a rip off of il-76.
> 
> not to mention:
> 
> 1.apc talha
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> from
> 
> m113 apc
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2.baktar shikan atgm
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> from
> swing fire atgm
> 
> data:image/jpg;base64,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



3. ANZA MISSILE






from

SA-7 Grail

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## Kaniska

What is the big deal in this news.....Of course Indian R&D effort is not 100% indigeneous....Of course India has not reached to that level of technological independence....But again technological development is measured in relative term...And a nation has every right to measure its progress with the relative development and success that India has achieved through out this period....So you dont have to specifically mention that India has not developed independently on its own...unless you derive some pleasure out of it...


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## Water Car Engineer

*New Indian made ships
*















*INS Shivalik, India's First Home-Built Stealth Frigate. (12 planned, 1 built, 2 building)
*

*Designed and Built by MDL(Mazagon Dock Limited), Mumbai, Maharashtra.
*















*India's Guided missile destroyer INS Chennai of the Kolkata class destroyers.
(7 planned, 3 built)
*

*Designed and Built by MDL(Mazagon Dock Limited), Mumbai, Maharashtra.
*





*ASW Corvette INS Kamorta of the Kamorta class corvette (12+ 12 planned(project 28a), 4 building)
*

*Designed and Built by GRSE(Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers), Kolkata, West Bengal.*






*Vikrant class aircraft carriers are the first aircraft carriers of the Indian Navy to be designed and built in India.*

*They are being built by Cochin Shipyard Limited (CSL). Kochi, Kerala*

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## Storm Force

RIP OFF OR NO RIP OFF.

Help from Russia Israel or Europe IT MAKES NO DIFFRENCE.

The fact is plain & simple 

NO OTHR COUNTRY IN ASIA bar China & Japan can or is building planning to build INDENGIOUS 

NUKE SUBS 
Aircraft carriers
Attack helos
Guided missle frigates 
guided missle destroyers 
combt planes
main battle tanks
radar systems.

" THE RANGE OF INDIAN INDENGIOUS WEAPONS IS IMPRESSIVE" 

for what is supposed to be a predominant weapons importer.

IEXPECT THE INDENGIOUS CONTENT TO RISE FROM 20% CURRENTLY

TO 50% BY 2020 easily

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## Storm Force

Another much maligned and delayed is expected to finally arrive the self propelled BHIM ARTLLARY gun

see below 

Indian Tracked Self Propelled Artillery Project Bhim Back On Track? - World Of Defense

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## desiman

Aeronaut said:


> Akash is a rip off SA-6 Gainful - has noting to do with Indian R&D. India upgraded it and called it Akash.


 
your a troll and nothing more than that. The Akash has nothing to do with the SA-4, you are comparing them using physical attributes which is the most idiotic thing to do. Who gave you the researchers tag, ohh wait your a Pakistani thats why.

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## Storm Force

pinka mbrl 

http://www./LAND-FORCES/Equipment/Artillery/356-214mm-Pinaka-MBRL.html

indengious multi barrel rocket launchers serve in six regiments and growing 
DEFENCE AND INTELLIGENCE: Pinaka Multi Barrel Rocket Launcher

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## Storm Force

THE INDIAN NAVY IS REALLY FLEXING INDENGIOUS MUSCLE

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## Water Car Engineer

*Fire Arms produced in India*







*Insas assault rifle and LMG
*





*bullpop Insas*






*Kalantak 07
*





*Excalibur*






*MINSAS *






*MSMC*






*Trichy Assault rifle with INSAS with grenade launcher*


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## Water Car Engineer

*India's first attack helicopter*

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## Dalai Lama

This is all very nice but why do we have to prove anything?

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## Water Car Engineer

*Pinaka Multi Barrel Rocket Launcher
*
















*Akash medium range surface-to-air missile defense system*













> Trishul is the name of a short range surface-to-air missile developed by India as a part of the Integrated Guided Missile Development Program. It has a range of 9 km and is fitted with a 5.5 kg warhead. Designed to be used against low-level (sea skimming) targets at short range, the system has been developed to defend naval vessels against missiles and also as a short range surface to air missile on land. Guidance consists of three different guiding beams, with the guidance handed over progressively to a narrower beam as the missile approaches the target.



Cancelled

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## Water Car Engineer

*Nag Missile *











*Shaurya Missile*






Underwater Launch Canister For K-15 Sagarika Submarine-launched Missile














> Rare photos of the 2009-2010 development sea trials of (from top) India's two principal underwater weapon development programmes -- the Torpedo-Advanced Light (TAL) and the Varunastra heavyweight high speed torpedo, developed by the Naval Science & Tech Laboratory (NSTL) in Visakhapatnam.

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## MilSpec

Aeronaut said:


> Akash is a rip off SA-6 Gainful - has noting to do with Indian R&D. India upgraded it and called it Akash.


 
You opened a thread on the same.. you ran away from replying me there... stop posting your useless observations everywhere.. if you have courage answer my post in the thread you created on akash... now run away...

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## szgilleco

As the neighbour of Indian, i just want to celebrate for your advance.

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## Zarvan

Liquid said:


> *Nag Missile *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Shaurya Missile*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Underwater Launch Canister For K-15 Sagarika Submarine-launched Missile


 
Sir most of these weapons you took help of Russia to make them


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## lepziboy

Zarvan said:


> Sir most of these weapons you took help of Russia to make them


 
expected answer from a pakistani

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## MilSpec

Zarvan said:


> Sir most of these weapons you took help of Russia to make them


 
if it was that easy .. wouldn't you be making them too by now?


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## SQ8

A couple of things..
indigenous would mean developed entirely from scratch within a region.
No import involved.. no adoption..
however.. 
there is a difference between adoption.. and adaptation.
Adoption is taking something as it is.. and making at your own.
Adaptation is taking something, changing it, improving it..to your own needs.. and then using it.
That change, that improvement is indigenous.

Now.. taking the claim of the thread..
and applying the above terms..
Indian tech is adapted .. and invented.. from others.. and from within.
As long as there is Indian ingenuity involved..
It is indigenous.

the Mig-21F first made by HAL was not indigenous.. 
but the LCA, the LCH.. 
and other tech is.

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## blackops

Santro said:


> A couple of things..
> indigenous would mean developed entirely from scratch within a region.
> No import involved.. no adoption..
> however..
> there is a difference between adoption.. and adaptation.
> Adoption is taking something as it is.. and making at your own.
> Adaptation is taking something, changing it, improving it..to your own needs.. and then using it.
> That change, that improvement is indigenous.
> 
> Now.. taking the claim of the thread..
> and applying the above terms..
> Indian tech is adapted .. and invented.. from others.. and from within.
> As long as there is Indian ingenuity involved..
> It is indigenous.
> 
> the Mig-21F first made by HAL was not indigenous..
> but the LCA, the LCH..
> and other tech is.


 mig 21f? ??????


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## IND151

*Indian air force has 2000 akash missiles.*

*Indian army has 1000 modified akash missiles.* still there are some fools who think that akash is failed.


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## IND151

TheDeletedUser said:


> This is all very nice but why do we have to prove anything?



India bashers will get slapped.


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## Water Car Engineer

^
recent video with Arjun

*India's first tank: Arjun tank*











*HAL light utility helicopter *
















*HAL Dhruv Helicopter*

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## Water Car Engineer

*Mahindra Marksman*



> Mahindra Marksman is India&#8217;s first armoured capsule-based light bulletproof vehicle to provide protection to the personnel of Defence, Paramilitary and Police forces against small arms fire and grenade attacks.








*TATA's armored vehicle *






*Ashok Leyland armored vehicle
*





*Ashok Leyland Mine Protected Vehicle
*





*TATA Mine Protected Vehicle*






*Mahindra Mine Protected Vehicle(Joint venture with BAE Systems)*

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## siegecrossbow

Dude your title looks like you are trying to bash India!

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## Water Car Engineer

*First Indian AWACS rolls out*



> ERJ-145 regional jet serving as the platform for the airborne early warning and control aircraft (AEW&C)








*HAL Tejas*






*HAL tejas two seat trainer*






*Naval Tejas*











*HAL HJT-36 Sitara intermediate jet trainer*

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## MrIndianSikh

i believe Indias top 5 indigenous projects are 

1) ABM system 
2) Arihant nuke submarine 
3) Vikrant class a/c carrier 
4) stealth fighter program FGFA with Russia and the indigenous AMCA 
5) AWACS


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## Water Car Engineer

*Some more ships, but this time Fast Attack Craft made in India*






*INS Kondul
*






*INS Carnicobar
*






*INS Cheriyam
*






*INS Chetlat
*






*The INS Cankarso, alongside the INS Bitra.
*








> The foc'sle. That Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) 30 mm CRN-91 automatic gun is controlled by a Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL) electronic day-night fire control system, with a joystick and display that would make any First Person Shooter gaming fan drool.



*Car Nicobar class fast attack craft

In commission:	7
Building:	2
Planned:	10
Completed:	8
Active:	8*

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## 500

Liquid said:


> *INS Shivalik, India's First Home-Built Stealth Frigate. (12 planned, 1 built, 2 building)
> 
> Designed and Built by MDL(Mazagon Dock Limited), Mumbai, Maharashtra.*


What a beautiful ship.

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## Firemaster

MrIndianSikh said:


> i believe Indias top 5 indigenous projects are
> 
> 1) ABM system
> 2) Arihant nuke submarine
> 3) Vikrant class a/c carrier
> 4) stealth fighter program FGFA with Russia and the indigenous AMCA
> 5) AWACS


 
these are non secret projects


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## Water Car Engineer

*INS Shardul*
















*INS Kesari*











*INS Airavat*

*Shardul class landing ship bulit by Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers*











*INS Tir*



> INS Tir (A86) (Hindi Tir:Arrow) is the first dedicated Cadet's Training Ship to be built by Mazagon Dock Limited and commissioned as such by the Indian Navy. She is the senior ship of the 1st Training Squadron of the Southern Naval Command.
> INS Tir was commissioned on 21 February 1986. Sensors on board Tir include Decca Radar and a SATNAV (Satellite Navigation) system. She can carry up to 293 people on board, though her typical deployment is with 20 instructors and staff and 120 cadets.

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## blackops

Thanks a lot liquid brother awsum pics waiting for more


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## SQ8

You wonder why with the local IJT the IAF chose to go after the hawk.....


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## Water Car Engineer

blackops said:


> Thanks a lot liquid brother awsum pics waiting for more



No problem blackops.

*INS KOCHI
1 out of the already 3 built and 6 in total Kolkota class destroyers*










> You wonder why with the local IJT the IAF chose to go after the hawk.....



BAE Hawk is an advanced jet trainer aircraft. Sitara is an intermediate jet trainer

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## Water Car Engineer

*Abhay IFV
*
Abhay serves as a pre-technology demonstrator to develop and test technologies that will be used on a futuristic ICV (FICV), which will replace the Indian Army's BMP-2 vehicles.

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## Bossman

Good efforts guys but expalain to me why:

Indian indegenous aircrafts i.e. Kiran, Sitara and Dhruv etc. have a habit of crashing at airshows?

Why its basic and primary trainers are gounded and it has issued international tenders for the same?

Why it is tendering for the MRCA if the LCA was so good?

Why Indian missiles i.e. Agni, Prithivi etc. have a habit of crashing into the Bay of Bengal?

Why its indegenous ships have a habit of sinking in the habour?

Why its indegenous nulear submarine does not have any propulsion?

Why Indian tanks either domestic or imported heat up when operating in the desert and why Indian ordered a 1000 T 90 if the Arjun was so good?

Why it has to still import shells for its 155 mm howitzers?

Why Indian domestic rifle INAS based on the AK heats ups and blocks after rapid fire and Indian army is looking for an alternative?

Despite it huge domestic military industrial complex, India is the largest importer of weapons in the world?

Why all its domestic weapon program are years behind schedule and billions of dollars over budget?

Etc. etc. I have more questions but will keep them for later.

I support and salute indian indegenous weapons capability. Good work and keep it up.


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## Water Car Engineer

> Why Indian domestic rifle INAS based on the AK heats ups and blocks after rapid fire and Indian army is looking for an alternative?




INSAS doesnt even have rapid fire mode, so that doesnt make sense. Indian army is trying to find an alternative for the F-INSAS program. 









> Why Indian missiles i.e. Agni, Prithivi etc. have a habit of crashing into the Bay of Bengal?



Its a habit?? Its cause you Pakistanis like to look when India has a failure, but never seems to be aroud when it had succeeded MANY times. 




> Why Indian tanks either domestic or imported heat up when operating in the desert.?




These are old issues.




> Despite it huge domestic military industrial complex, India is the largest importer of weapons in the world?




It's not that large at all, but things have been picking up sense 2000. And yes It is the largest importer now, because its trying to replace aging tech and you can't expect it to make everything indigenously and in a short period of time. So it will buy from out side. Not to long ago China was the largest importer. 

Now China is producing stealth fighters, give India time. Which all these major players had.



> Why all its domestic weapon program are years behind schedule and billions of dollars o ver budget?




Because projects like Arjun(India's first tank),Tejas(first jet fighter), Kaveri(first engine for a jet fighter), etc are India's first plunge into these type of proprams. India isn't France, Russia, USA, etc who have been doing this for generations. And even they cancal programs, go over the bugdet, etc. India is just starting.

Also India came in trying to build these things completely from scratch which is unrealistic for a nation like India at the time.



> ordered a 1000 T 90 if the Arjun was so good?



Arjun was having major problems when India decided to order even more T-90s. The plan is to keep improving Arjun to Mark 2 then Futuristic Main Battle Tank (FMBT), which will replace T-90s.



> Why it is tendering for the MRCA if the LCA was so good?



Tejas will complement the medium fighters with the heavier Su 30 mki.



> I support and salute indian indegenous weapons capability. Good work and keep it up.



I am sure you do.

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## Hulk

> Indian indegenous aircrafts i.e. Kiran, Sitara and Dhruv etc. have a habit of crashing at airshows?


First it is exaggeration, second yes there are some crashes, so? Which country does not have? also we are learning, we will have our set of failures.
every industry goes through this phase, when a new industry is started *major *issue occur, as and when you progress you get over the issues. It is normal life-cycle. You will understand this if you have developed an industry. (But seems like you do not have many such instances in Pakistan). 



> Why it is tendering for the MRCA if the LCA was so good?


Just because we have a car does not mean we do not need a bus, also if you read carefully people are saying LCA will mature and do the Job it is suppose to do. Try to google and find out which class LCA fits in and which class MRCA. It is so basic question, that makes me believe you need a lot of spoon feeding. I can only give you so much.



> Why Indian missiles i.e. Agni, Prithivi etc. have a habit of crashing into the Bay of Bengal?


Because there target is in Bay of bengal. So they hit the target, it is not called crashing by the way. 
By the way only pre tested missiles like yours do not fail, you tried to make one yourself in 2004 and still working right.
Ghauri-III - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Ghauri-III reportedly started development around 1999 [2] with a planned range of over 3,000 km
In late May 2004 it was reported that the missile would be to be ready for testing in June of that year, but it was not tested by the end of 2010
In 10 years you could not build one missile that you tried on your own, that too when you got some technology from smaller range missile.


> Why its indegenous ships have a habit of sinking in the habour?


We are just doing some sinking practice. Obviously harbor is good place since we can get some money from tickets.



> Why Indian tanks either domestic or imported heat up when operating in the desert and why Indian ordered a 1000 T 90 if the Arjun was so good?


Arjun just finished testing, T-90 was ordered before. Why you keep repeating the line, why do this if that was good. All of us are saying we are learning, none are saying we are expert.



> Why it has to still import shells for its 155 mm howitzers?


Cost benefit.



> Why Indian domestic rifle INAS based on the AK heats ups and blocks after rapid fire and Indian army is looking for an alternative?


because they had a design problem, which is now corrected. See when you do not do copy pasting then some of these challenges will be faced. 



> Despite it huge domestic military industrial complex, India is the largest importer of weapons in the world?


Because we do not build all kinds of weapon of the quality that we need. Mostly we need planes which we just started to build. We will need 20 years before this thing will change. This again goes back to life-cycle.



> Why all its domestic weapon program are years behind schedule and billions of dollars over budget?


1) Our budget estimations are wrong, so they look over budgeted.
2) Management and decision making.
3) We give optimistic estimates.

Yes we need to learn. 


> Etc. etc. I have more questions but will keep them for later.


Sure, also ask some questions about yourself, the biggest question you should ask is where do Pakistan stand in self development when you criticize India. 



> I support and salute indian indegenous weapons capability. Good work and keep it up.[/QUOTE
> Thanks.

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## Hulk

Bossman said:


> indianrabbit said:
> 
> 
> 
> *
> Fools hanging on to straws, I love getting them all riled up. As far as Ghuari is concerned, it doesn't exist *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes that is Pakistan's way of dealing, test something if it fails never report. Since in their opinion it is going to send wrong message that they have failed.
> 
> When something is successful shout on top of voice.
> 
> Additionally you also rename thing you got as TOT and give local name, so that people think you made it at home. Like AK.
> 
> When India does TOT, they clearly tell it is TOT. SU-30 does not have an Indian name nor does T-90.
Click to expand...


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## Water Car Engineer

indianrabbit said:


> Yes that is Pakistan's way of dealing, test something if it fails never report. Since in their opinion it is going to send wrong message that they have failed.
> 
> When something is successful shout on top of voice.
> 
> Additionally you also rename thing you got as TOT and give local name, so that people think you made it at home. Like AK.
> 
> When India does TOT, they clearly tell it is TOT. SU-30 does not have an Indian name nor does T-90.


 
Indianrabbit the people in India are working very hard, but we can not deny that the people in Pakistan are working just as hard.

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## Bossman

indianrabbit said:


> Bossman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes that is Pakistan's way of dealing, test something if it fails never report. Since in their opinion it is going to send wrong message that they have failed.
> 
> When something is successful shout on top of voice.
> 
> Additionally you also rename thing you got as TOT and give local name, so that people think you made it at home. Like AK.
> 
> When India does TOT, they clearly tell it is TOT. SU-30 does not have an Indian name nor does T-90.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who give a $hit about indegenous as long as it destroys the enemy aka Indians. The earlier post sounds like some elementary school kod giving excuses to his teacher.
Click to expand...


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## Hulk

Bossman said:


> indianrabbit said:
> 
> 
> 
> Who give a $hit about indegenous as long as it destroys the enemy aka Indians. The earlier post sounds like some elementary school kod giving excuses to his teacher.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well if there are stupid question, do not expect serious response. I do not think you understood the satire.
Click to expand...


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## Bossman

Liquid said:


> Indianrabbit the people in India are working very hard, but we can not deny that the people in Pakistan are working just as hard.


 
I bet no Indian without the help of the government and using just their own budget like these guys did, has never done something similar. Shows great initiative and drive of individual Pakistani citizens. There are many example such as these where an average Pakistani citizens have designed, built and flown ultra lights, trikes and other aircraft. Very proud of them.


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## Hulk

Liquid said:


> Indianrabbit the people in India are working very hard, but we can not deny that the people in Pakistan are working just as hard.


 
I am going to be the last person who demeans anyone. The post I replied too was very stupid, but yes I such resist replying to trolls. If you look at my record, I hardly do, but sometimes everyone does a mistake.


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## Hulk

Bossman said:


> I bet no Indian without the help of the government and using just their own budget like these guys did, has never done something similar. Shows great initiative and drive of individual Pakistani citizens. There are many example such as these where an average Pakistani citizens have designed, built and flown ultra lights, trikes and other aircraft. Very proud of them.



Again fanboy reply. just one question, can you point me to the address where the helicopters engine is made in Pakistan?


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## Bossman

indianrabbit said:


> Again fanboy reply. just one question, can you point me to the address where the helicopters engine is made in Pakistan?


 
Where are the engines for Dhruv are made?


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## Hulk

Bossman said:


> Where are the engines for Dhruv are made?


Well question was to you, DRUHV engine is made in India with TOT. The helicopter that you were talking about is just an assembled kit bought from USA.
all it has is engine seat and blades. If engine is imported, blades are important your contribution is just the seat.

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## Bossman

More creative Pakistani citizens


























PakistaniAviation.com


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## Hulk

Bossman said:


> indianrabbit said:
> 
> 
> 
> Who give a $hit about indegenous as long as it destroys the enemy aka Indians. The earlier post sounds like some elementary school kod giving excuses to his teacher.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Same here, who gives a $hit.
> In addition, I know and accept that out definition of indigenous is not accurate and some people try to take a dig at that. When we say indigenous we mean that the product is manufactured in India and India does not need any other countries license to manufacture it.
> 1) It does not mean we did not take any help.
> 2) It does not mean we manufacture every component in India.
> 
> What we mean is that we created the program and with help of others we were able to manufacture that product.
> 
> There is hardly anything that we have made which was not helped by other nations, but so is the case with other nations including China. If they can call their product indigenous so can we.
Click to expand...


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## Bossman

indianrabbit said:


> Well question was to you, DRUHV engine is made in India with TOT. The helicopter that you were talking about is just an assembled kit bought from USA.
> all it has is engine seat and blades. If engine is imported, blades are important your contribution is just the seat.



*HAL&#8217;s Dhruv is 90 per cent imported: CAG report*


BANGALORE: India&#8217;s flagship defence export Dhruv, an Advanced Light Helicopter which the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) claims as indigenous, is 90 per cent imported, states a report by the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG).

The report says 90 per cent of the material used to build the 5.5-tonne chopper is imported. It adds that HAL should make concerted efforts to achieve the desired 50 per cent level of indigenisation.

&#8220;As against the envisaged indigenisation level of 50 per cent, about 90 per cent of the value of material used in each helicopter is procured from foreign suppliers,&#8221; says the report.

Rapping the Bangalore-based defence PSU, the CAG report adds that the non-freezing of design of the chopper has kept the development stage open.

&#8220;Despite getting the first prototype of ALH utility version in 1992, till date the company has not met the technical requirements of defence services, which changed too often impacting the development process necessitating large number of modifications.&#8221;

It points out that 74 helicopters supplied to defence customers &#8220;are flying with concessions&#8221; and adds that the company failed to consider infrastructural imbalances.

The report also pulls up HAL for the delay in development of the powerful Shakti engine and recommends that series production should be taken up only after prototypes are approved by the customer and the Ministry of Defence.


http://theasiandefence.blogspot.com/...ruv-is-90.html 

*I am not stupid enough to compare Dhruv with private initiatives of average Pakistani citizens, you are doing that. I am very proud of what these Pakistani citizens are doing even if they use old car engine in thier crafts. These are all scratch built projects. Kit built ultralights are another story.*


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## Hulk

Bossman said:


> *HAL&#8217;s Dhruv is 90 per cent imported: CAG report*
> 
> 
> BANGALORE: India&#8217;s flagship defence export Dhruv, an Advanced Light Helicopter which the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) claims as indigenous, is 90 per cent imported, states a report by the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG).
> 
> The report says 90 per cent of the material used to build the 5.5-tonne chopper is imported. It adds that HAL should make concerted efforts to achieve the desired 50 per cent level of indigenisation.
> 
> &#8220;As against the envisaged indigenisation level of 50 per cent, about 90 per cent of the value of material used in each helicopter is procured from foreign suppliers,&#8221; says the report.
> 
> Rapping the Bangalore-based defence PSU, the CAG report adds that the non-freezing of design of the chopper has kept the development stage open.
> 
> &#8220;Despite getting the first prototype of ALH utility version in 1992, till date the company has not met the technical requirements of defence services, which changed too often impacting the development process necessitating large number of modifications.&#8221;
> 
> It points out that 74 helicopters supplied to defence customers &#8220;are flying with concessions&#8221; and adds that the company failed to consider infrastructural imbalances.
> 
> The report also pulls up HAL for the delay in development of the powerful Shakti engine and recommends that series production should be taken up only after prototypes are approved by the customer and the Ministry of Defence.
> 
> 
> http://theasiandefence.blogspot.com/...ruv-is-90.html
> 
> *I am not stupid enough to compare Dhruv with private initiatives of average Pakistani citizens, you are doing that. I am very proud of what these Pakistani citizens are doing even if they use old car engine in thier crafts. These are all scratch built project. Kit built ultralights are another story.*


 
About DRUV, yes our nation does not hide anything and since I am not an expert I would leave it to them to respond.
About the last part, yes good job by Pakistani's for manufacturing the seat of helicopter. Now you will understand that everything starts small. Today you have made the seat, tomorrow you will make light and later blades and engine. It is a process that is what I am trying to explain you.

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## Water Car Engineer

Bossman said:


> More creative Pakistani citizens
> 
> PakistaniAviation.com


 
Dude there are creative people in every nation.


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## Hulk

Bossman said:


> *I am not stupid enough to compare Dhruv with private initiatives of average Pakistani citizens, you are doing that. I am very proud of what these Pakistani citizens are doing even if they use old car engine in thier crafts. These are all scratch built project. Kit built ultralights are another story.*



Hang on, can you give details of what is built from scratch.
This helicopter does not even have a cabin. All I see is seat, engine and blades and maybe some more electronic stuff.
Now please provide details what did you built from scratch?

Common sense tells that these people bought kits and assembled it. There are people who just with nationalism does not question anything. This barebone helicopter does not have anything much other then the engine, if you have not manufactured the engine what have you done.

Gyrocopters - What Are They And Can You Have One? | Ultralight Airplanes


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## AMCA

Bossman said:


> Where are the engines for Dhruv are made?


 
Ever heard of Shakti Engine??


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## Bossman

indianrabbit said:


> Hang on, can you give details of what is built from scratch.
> This helicopter does not even have a cabin. All I see is seat, engine and blades and maybe some more electronic stuff.
> Now please provide details what did you built from scratch?
> 
> Common sense tells that these people bought kits and assembled it. There are people who just with nationalism does not question anything. This barebone helicopter does not have anything much other then the engine, if you have not manufactured the engine what have you done.
> 
> Gyrocopters - What Are They And Can You Have One? | Ultralight Airplanes


 
How many people do you know in the world who are making engines in their homes? Look at them, these are ordinary Pakistani folks not even the privilged types. They are not associated with the government, the military, any research or educational organization. They are from small towns and they built planes as a hobby. The engines are stripped down old car engines. You want to talk about Kit built Ultralights in Pakistan you go here:

Ultra Light and Sports Flying Club - Lahore Pakistan | Facebook

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=100460647871

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## Bossman

AMCA said:


> Ever heard of Shakti Engine??


 
Shakti=Turbomeca=French who are you fooling.


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## Hulk

Bossman said:


> How many people do you know in the world who are making engines in their homes? Look at them, these are ordinary Pakistani folks not even the privilged types. They are not associated with the government, the military, any research or educational organization. They are from small towns and they built planes as a hobby. The engines are stripped down old car engines. You want to talk about Kit built Ultralights in Pakistan you go here:
> 
> Ultra Light and Sports Flying Club - Lahore Pakistan | Facebook


 
Ok now that we have discussed a lot, here is my conclusion.
Every country tries to encourage local talent, and every country feel good when they develop something locally.
Hardly any country has invented much in Asia, so why criticize India?

I already explained what indigenous means when we say it.
If you have any argument on that let us discuss it.


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## Water Car Engineer

Bossman said:


> Shakti=Turbomeca=French who are you fooling.


 
Its a joint venture between HAL and Turbomeca. Who are you fooling?


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## AMCA

Bossman said:


> Shakti=Turbomeca=French who are you fooling.


 
Shakti = turbomeca/HAL = you are fooling yourself

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## Bossman

AMCA said:


> Shakti = turbomeca/HAL = you are fooling yourself


 
The sticker might be Indian but it is a French engine, your own government says so read the article above. The JV is on paper and its only contribution is to make some HAL execs very rich. I any case I have burst your bubble, indian indengious weapons capability is, after all, really a myth


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## Water Car Engineer

Bossman said:


> The sticker might be Indian but it is a French engine, your own government says so read the article above. The JV is on paper and its only contribution is to make some HAL execs very rich. I any case I have burst your bubble, indian indengious weapons capability is, after all, really a myth


 
Ha!! Thats easy for you to say. India tells if its TOT or JV, and it admits of how many percentage is imported. You now all this, because *India openly says it*. Now you want to ignore that its Joint Venture? It doesn't hide the fact. Now AL- Khalid and JF-17, what's Pakistani in it?? I ask every Pakistani this, but all it is, is a different name, with Chinese effort.



> indian indengious weapons capability is, after all, really a myth



See this is what brought you here.

not this




> I support and salute indian indegenous weapons capability. Good work and keep it up.





You dont want to see India improve. And cant stand it, its ok.


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## AMCA

Bossman said:


> The sticker might be Indian but it is a French engine, your own government says so read the article above. The JV is on paper and its only contribution is to make some HAL execs very reach. I any case I have burst your bubble, indian indengious weapons capability is, after all, really a myth


 
Oh Come on, If India had no contribution to this, India would have still been using Turbomeca TM 333-2B2 engines rather than the Shakti engines, whose very purpose was to be self reliant, India had to evolve the technologies , most of it because of the Embargo on us after nuke tests.... And GTRE is not the only Engine manufacturing facility we got, we Have several divisions of HAL which does the job...


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## Bossman

Liquid said:


> Ha!! Thats easy for you to say. India tells if its TOT or JV, and it admits of how many percentage is imported. You now all this, because *India openly says it*. Now you want to ignore that its Joint Venture? It doesn't hide the fact. Now AL- Khalid and JF-17, what's Pakistani in it??
> 
> 
> 
> See this is what brought you here.


 
Well I don't see anyone flaunting Pakistani indegenous weapons cabability on this forum, it was you Indians who were thumping your chests loudly so you deserved a response. The truth is obvious, it is all a bunch of hot air and bull$hit. Go thump your chest where there is no one to challenge your lies.


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## Bossman

AMCA said:


> Oh Come on, If India had no contribution to this, India would have still been using Turbomeca TM 333-2B2 engines rather than the Shakti engines, whose very purpose was to be self reliant, India had to evolve the technologies , most of it because of the Embargo on us after nuke tests.... And GTRE is not the only Engine manufacturing facility we got, we Have several divisions of HAL which does the job...


 
How can you have Indian contribution if your own government says Dhruv is 90 percent imported? Maybe Indian came up with a better way to clean the turbine blades.


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## AMCA

Bossman said:


> Well I don't see anyone flaunting Pakistani indegenous weapons cabability on this forum, it was you Indians who were thumping your chests loudly so you deserved a response. The truth is obvious, it is all a bunch of hot air and bull$hit. Go thump your chest where there is no one to challenge your lies.


 
Challenging is at your own risk, did anyone stop you from challenging us?? or did we not know we would not be challenged after opening this thread especially in a hostile forum?? you are the one moving away, not us, come closer....


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## Water Car Engineer

Bossman said:


> Well I don't see anyone flaunting Pakistani indegenous weapons cabability on this forum, it was you Indians who were thumping your chests loudly so you deserved a response. The truth is obvious, it is all a bunch of hot air and bull$hit. Go thump your chest where there is no one to challenge your lies.


 
Ha, what we cant be proud of what is produced in India? Why cant you stand it? Jealously?? Why dont you Pakistanis ever talk with the same passion on J-11? J-7?

We dont give a damn when you guys call JF-17 and AL Khalid indigenous. Even though we have no Idea whats Paksitani in it.

No one is chest bumbing, we know India has a long way to go. You are the one that cant stand it for some reason.


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## Bossman

AMCA said:


> Challenging is at your own risk, did anyone stop you from challenging us?? or did we not know we would not be challenged after opening this thread especially in a hostile forum?? you are the one moving away, not us, come closer....


 
You are blabbering now and not making any sense


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## AMCA

Bossman said:


> How can you have Indian contribution if your own government says Dhruv is 90 percent imported? Maybe Indian came up with a better way to clean the turbine blades.


 
hahaha, That was funny.... CAG reports say materials, how did you take it for granted that those were not Raw materials??, now how can CAG blame HAL?? HAL had claimed it when they put forth the proposal of ALH development in front of the cabinet for approval...

---------- Post added at 08:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:27 AM ----------




Bossman said:


> You are blabbering now and not making any sense


 
Does that mean that you ever did???


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## Bossman

AMCA said:


> hahaha, That was funny.... CAG reports say materials, how did you take it for granted that those were not Raw materials??, now how can CAG blame HAL?? HAL had claimed it when they put forth the proposal of ALH development in front of the cabinet for approval...
> 
> ---------- Post added at 08:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:27 AM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> Does that mean that you did???


 
Still blabbering!


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## AMCA

Bossman said:


> Still blabbering!


 
It would sound so, when you have nothing more to contribute


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## Water Car Engineer

Bossman said:


> Be proud on Bharat Rat$hit or similar forums, don't waste bandwidth of a Pakistani forum.


 
Ha, your not the Admin here. You dont make the rules.


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## Bossman

Liquid said:


> Ha, of course you kick @ss over the Internet, internet tough guy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What bubble? Like the giant bubble you created with Al Khalid and JF-17??


 

We don't have to create bubbles. Proof is in the pudding, more than 400 Alkhalids are in active service in strike formations, nearly 50 JF17 are in operational squadron service. We have moved to Alkhalid II and JF 17 Block 2.


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## Water Car Engineer

Bossman said:


> We don't have to create bubbles. Proof is in the pudding, more than 400 Alkhalids are in active service in strike formations, nearly 50 JF17 are in operational squadron service. We have moved to Alkhalid II and JF 17 Block 2.


 
Which you call indigenous right??

We dont have to worry about numbers or how many are produced. India local produces T-90, MKIs, and some MMRCA fighters.

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## Bossman

Liquid said:


> Ok, they are JVs half and half. What's Pakistani in it?


 
No always half and half. Some are licence, some are TOT, some are JVs but they all work as they were designed to. Unlike the Indians we don't try to reinvent the wheel every time we start a project and fail as a result.


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## Water Car Engineer

Bossman said:


> No always half and half. Some are licence, some are TOT, some are JVs but they all work as they were designed to. Unlike the Indians we don't try to reinvent the wheel every time we start a project and fail as a result.


 
Basically there is nothing Pakistani in it, thanks. And you like kicking us for trying.

Of course it works, because its completely Chinese effort.

We will get ToT for T-90 fit some European parts in it, and call it a JV.


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## AMCA

Bossman said:


> No always half and half. Some are licence, some are TOT, some are JVs but they all work as they were designed to. Unlike the Indians we don't try to reinvent the wheel every time we start a project and fail as a result.


 
So thats why you want Musharraf, to stop him from revealing the failures in your defense Industry... You neither publish it, nor do you like the person who reveals it?? but enjoy when India reveals it.... how smart..

Now whats pakistani in JF-17?? other than the pilot of course which is of no use anyways

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## Bossman

Liquid said:


> Basically there is nothing Pakistani in it, thanks. And you like kick us for trying.
> 
> Of course it works, because its completely Chinese effort.
> 
> We will get ToT for T-90 fit some European parts in it, and call it a JV.


 
If you are talking about Alkhalid how it can be a completely Chinese effort, if it has a Ukranian engine, a french transmission, Pakistan designed BMS and main gun also how can JF17 can be Chinese system if it has a Russian engine and design input. BTW only JF17 was a JV as it was 50% venture between PAC and CATIC.


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## AMCA

Bossman said:


> If you are talking about Alkhalid how it is be a completely Chinese effort, if it has a Ukranian engine, a french transmission, Pakistan designed BMS and main gun also how can JF17 can be Chinese system if it has a Russian engine and design input. BTW only JF17 was a JV as it was 50% venture between PAC and CATIC.


 
Please explain those 50% input of pakistan please... atleast explain the 1%

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## Paan Singh

Bossman said:


> No we don't we call them JVs or projects with Chinese assistance. Look at the credit we give to the Chinese whenever their is a lunch ceremony for Al Khalid, JF 17 or FP-22 Frigates.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 08:23 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:22 AM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> But their A$$es are not skinny


 
but u used word black......now u r running away from post


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## Bossman

AMCA said:


> Please explain those 50% input of pakistan please... atleast explain the 1%


 
why shoud I, I am not defending anything or thumping my chest. Go do your own research. There is enough on the net which is not classified.


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## Paan Singh

AMCA said:


> Please explain those 50% input of pakistan please... atleast explain the 1%


 
may be money and paint..it includes more than 1%....so ur point is wrong...

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Bossman

Prism said:


> but u used word black......now u r running away from post


 
I used skinny black. So it has to be black and skinny


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## Bossman

no your point for this whole thread is wrong.


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## Bossman

Prism said:


> may be money and paint..it includes more than 1%....so ur point is wrong...


 
No, your whole point for this thread is wrong


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## blackops

Bossman said:


> so who has skinny black a$$es?


 
I will tell you who has it turn around face the mirror you will not only have a skinny black a$$¡but also a kicked one


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## Bossman

blackops said:


> I will tell you who has it turn around face the mirror you will not only have a skinny black a$$¡but also a kicked one


 
Getting desperate, are we? You are late to the party, your compatriot's a$$es has already been kciked


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## Water Car Engineer

Bossman said:


> Getting desperate, are we? You are late to the party, your compatriot's a$$es has already been kciked


 
From the guy that cant even name one thing Pakistani in the JF-17..


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## Paan Singh

guys plz kick j-17 out of this thread....


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## acetophenol

can we discuss this bird:

shaurya missile:







*The Shaurya missile (Sanskrit: Valour) is a canister launched Supersonic surface-to-surface tactical missile developed by the Indian Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO) for use by the Indian Armed Forces. It has a range of between 750 to 1900 k*m [2] and is capable of carrying a payload of one ton conventional or nuclear warhead.[4] It gives the potential to strike in the short-intermediate range against any adversary.[5] The Shaurya missile provides India with a significant second strike capability.[6]


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## acetophenol

some other drdo projects:

---------- Post added at 09:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:18 AM ----------

1. *Oleo-resin plastic hand grenades*

made out of Bhut Jholokia chilli.
for riot control


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## acetophenol

2.*120 mm illuminating bombs, 105 mm illuminating shells*

for artillery


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## Bossman

'Indian' Dhruv copter gets Italian makeover 

Ajai Shukla / New Delhi September 13, 2010, 0:24 IST 

The Dhruv Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH) has been widely regarded as a triumph of indigenous military rotorcraft design and manufacturing. 

Scores of Dhruvs already flying in army colours will be joined by another 159, which the military ordered last year from Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). 

And, Ecuadors air force chose the Dhruv ALH in an international tender in 2008 for seven helicopters.

But now it emerges that the Dhruv is struggling with a serious problem. 

The army, which was to be supplied 20 Dhruvs last year, refused to accept any until HAL fixed a problem that was restricting the Dhruvs cruising speed to 250 kilometers per hour, significantly short of the 270 kmph that HAL specifications promise. 

Unable to find a cure, HAL has brought in a consultant: Italian aerospace propulsion major, Avio.


Indias military sets high store by the Dhruvs engine power; the helicopter must operate from tiny landing grounds at 6,500 meters (about 21,000 feet), which is the altitude of Sonam Post, Indias highest helipad on the Siachen Glacier. 

But even after paying French engine-maker, Turbomeca, Rs 1,000 crore to design the Shakti engine - a superb performer at high altitudes - the Dhruvs Integrated Dynamic System, or IDS, which transfers power from the Shakti engines to the helicopter rotors, is not performing optimally. 

That, say HAL engineers, has reduced speed, high-altitude capability, and the life of the IDS.

The Italian consultants will now scrutinise the Dhruvs IDS to diagnose the problem. Avio will start by building a single HAL-designed IDS in Avios facilities in Italy, using their own materials and tools. 

They will then test-run this for 400-500 hours; if it works perfectly, it would be evident that the flaw lies in HALs manufacturing, rather than the IDS design. 

On the other hand, if the Avio-built IDS performs poorly during the test run, there is clearly a design problem. Avio will then redesign the IDS.

A senior HAL official explained to Business Standard: Avio will review the whole design, on a purely consultancy basis. 

They will give us a redesign that will be the first phase. We will have to translate that new design into an engineered product. And, after that, well have to do the ground testing and the flight-testing. It will be a long-drawn affair.

Avio, Business Standard has learned, was HALs second choice. 

But the first choice consultant, an American company, had so much work on its plate that it had to turn HAL away.

Meanwhile, Indias army and air force  strapped for helicopters  have no choice but to accept and fly Dhruvs, even though they are performing below par and metal keeps chipping off inside the IDS. 

HAL has itself implemented six changes inside the IDS and 30 helicopters have been flying with these changes for some 400 hours. 
So far, there has been no major problem.

This is not dangerous for the pilots, says a senior HAL official. 

Heavy chipping of metal would warn us about an impending failure of the IDS. There is a monitoring system inside the IDS, which checks for the presence of tiny metal chips in the oil. 

There is no danger of sudden, catastrophic failure in flight.

Top officials in the Ministry of Defence have conveyed strong displeasure to HAL over what they consider a sloppy work culture. 


Talking to Business Standard on condition of anonimity, a MoD official points out, The Avio consultancy will place HALs work culture under serious scrutiny. 

To identify the fault in the Dhruvs IDS, Avio has insisted on auditing HALs facilities and practices. 

This will amount to a full external audit, which will highlight systemic and procedural problems that HAL would never have identified on its own. 

But the MoD also accepts that the aerospace establishment, hungry for success, developed the Dhruv in haste and introduced it into operational service without adequate testing. 

Illustrating this point, the MoD official says: The IAF asked for about 75 design changes while HAL was developing the Dhruv. 

This prevented a coherent and systematic design process. 

And, thereafter, HAL was too eager to introduce the Dhruv into service. 

It has now emerged that it was unwise of HAL, and of the IAF, to operationalise the Dhruv before the design was fully stabilised. 

This year, the army and the IAF will introduce 31 new HAL-built Dhruv Mark 3 helicopters into service. 

These are part of an order placed on HAL last year for 159 Dhruv helicopters to be supplied by 2015. 

Of these, 83 are utility helicopters called Dhruv Mark 3, used for transporting people. 

The other 76 are Mark 4 helicopters, which will be fitted with cannons, rockets, missiles and electronic warfare equipment. These are called Dhruv (Weapon Systems Integrated), or Dhruv (WSI).


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## acetophenol

3.A 51 mm Light Weight Infantry Platoon Mortar for the Indian Army. A man portable weapon, the 51 mm mortar achieves double the range of 2-inch (51 mm) mortar without any increase in weight. Its new HE bomb uses pre-fragmentation technology to achieve vastly improved lethality vis a vis a conventional bomb. Besides HE, a family of ammunition consisting of smoke, illuminating and practice bombs has also been developed. The weapon system is under production at Ordnance Factories.


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## acetophenol

4.The Indian Field Gun, a 105 mm field gun was developed for the Indian Army and is in production. This was a significant challenge for the OFB, and various issues were faced with its manufacture including reliability issues and metallurgical problems. These were rectified over time.


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## Bossman

The Indian government told Parliament today that "deficiencies have been detected in the airframe and other associated equipment of the LCA Navy. Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is working out modalities with various organisations for rectifying these deficiencies by suitable modifications to the engine/airframe design.

The first prototype of the LCA Navy (NP-1) will be a two-seat trainer variant of the naval fighter, and will be followed by the single-seat NP-2 (terrible view from the cockpit!). I met LCA Navy programme director Cmde CD Balaji (Retd) today at DefExpo and received a full update on the programme. Cmde Balaji says he is aiming for a full power-on of NP-1 in the next three months, a roll out of the aircraft from its final integration facility by mid-2010, and a first flight in the second half of this year.

The front fuselage of NP-1 is identical to the LCA fighter trainer that began flight tests in November last year, and therefore test points for the LCA Navy have already started clocking, according to Cmde Balaji. The only part of the front fuselage that will require a full routine of tests is a small additional control surface near the wing roots in the LCA Navy that isn't there on the air force version. The NP-1 prototype is 80% complete, with some work left on the aircraft's landing gear. The LCA Navy will also have auxiliary air intakes.

Significantly, while EADS has already begun consulting with the LCA air force variant programme, the LCA Navy is still to begin consulting with Lockheed-Martin (which won a bid to consult for the LCA Navy) since protocol clearances from the US government still haven't come through (which, personally stinks of something deeper).

"We are fully capable of completing the exercise on our own. However, we have decided to hire the services of a consultant to optimise our requirements. For example, we need to reconfigure our landing gear for a greater sink rate, etc," Cmde Balaji says. (Sure)

---------- Post added at 09:24 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:23 AM ----------

New interceptor missile fails to take off
PTI, Mar 15, 2010, 11.35am IST

BALASORE: India's new Advanced Air Defence (AAD) interceptor missile, capable of destroying hostile missiles, on Monday encountered coordination problem and failed to take off during a planned launch from the Integrated Test Range at Wheeler Island off Orissa coast. 

"Coordinated exercise between target missile Prithvi from Chandipur and the indigenously built interceptor from Wheeler Island could not take place properly during the planned trial," defence sources said. 

Though Prithvi - the target missile - was test-fired at 10.02 hrs from a mobile launcher from ITR's launch complex-3 at Chandipur-on-sea, 15 km from here, the interceptor missile failed to blast off, they said. 

Though the exact reason behind interceptor missile's failure to take off was yet to be ascertained, preliminary analysis suggested that the target missile might have deviated from its stipulated trajectory, leading to lack of proper coordination, the sources said. 

The trial, aimed at developing a multi-layer Ballistic Missile Defence (BMD) system, was originally scheduled to be held on Sunday from the two different sites of the ITR but had to be put off due to some technical snag in a sub-system at Wheeler Island, they said. 

Wheeler's Island is located about 70 km across the sea from Chandipur and the AAD missile was to intercept the target at an altitude of 15 to 20 km over the sea.


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## acetophenol

5.Submerged Signal Ejector cartridges (SSE), limpet mines, short range anti-submarine rockets (with HE and practice warheads), the Indian Sea Mine which can be deployed against ships and submarines both. The DRDO also designed short and medium range ECM rockets which deploy chaff to decoy away anti-ship homing missiles. In a similar vein, they also developed a 3 in (76.2 mm) PFHE shell, prefragmented and with a proximity fuse, for use against anti-ship missiles and other targets, by the Navy. All these items are in production.


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## Bossman

Indian army wants INSAS series of rifles replaced:

New Delhi, Wednesday, May 26, 2010: Gearing up its soldiers for future warfare, the Indian Army feels there is an "urgent need" to replace the indigenously developed and manufactured INSAS series of rifles. 

"There is an urgent need to develop rifles, carbines and light machine guns of 5.56mm calibre to replace the existing INSAS class of weapons," it said in the 'Defence Ministry's Technology Perspective and Capability Roadmap' document. 

The INSAS rifles, designed by the DRDO, were inducted into the Armed forces in the 90s and have been used in the Kargil war and counter-insurgency operations also.

In its early days with the Army, the rifles faced reliability problems in the cold climate in places such as Kashmir valley and Siachen glacier.

Due to the cold weather, the rifles would jam occasionally and the polymer magazines would crack.These problems were later corrected by the manufacturers. 

PTIN

---------- Post added at 09:26 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:26 AM ----------

Now, army wants to dump the indigenous Insas rifle:

New Delhi, Thursday, February 18, 2010: Yet another move by the Indian Army to dump indigenous equipment has come under sharp focus within the services and outside. The decision to look for a foreign replacement for the Indian small arms system (Insas) assault rifle  the standard rifle of an Indian soldier  came as the army is under attack from various quarters for its resistance to the Arjun tank.

The Insas and Arjun are indigenously made, and are among rare successes for India, which is heavily dependent on foreign firms for defence equipment.

The army wants to dump the Insas as it allegedly doesnt measure up to its requirements. 

One of the arguments is that it does not instantly kill the enemy. But its defenders pointed out that it was not supposed to kill the enemy, but injure him so that in a battlefield more of his fellow soldiers are busy evacuating the injured. 

A serving senior officer from the infantry said it was baffling that the infantry directorate has issued a global tender for replacing the Insas. It has been designed precisely according to our quality requirements. If we have new requirements, we should ask the ordnance factory board to rework it, and not scrap the project, the officer, who was involved in the induction of Insas, told DNA. He pointed out that the rifle had undergone several refinements, so it is now a good weapon.

Insas is a 5.56mm rifle, and performs as well as any in its class, argued its supporters. It may not be as finished as others, but then you get an Insas for only Rs 24,000. Its comparative guns are in the range of Rs 1.25 lakh, an official pointed out.

The global RFP (request for proposal) issued for a new assault rifle for the army stipulated that it had to be lighter than 3.5 kg, making impossible for the Insas to even compete in the tender; an Insas weighs 4.1 kg.

---------- Post added at 09:27 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:26 AM ----------

Agni-II missile fails to clear night trial
TNN 24 November 2009, 12:28am ISTText Size:|Topics:Agni
DRDO

BALASORE: India's nuclear-capable intermediate range Agni-II missile, test-fired for the first time after sunset on Monday, reportedly failed to get 

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the desired results. 

The Army test-fired the surface-to-surface Intermediate Range Ballistic Missile (IRBM) from the Integrated Test Range (ITR) from Wheeler&#8217;s Island, Bhadrak district, around 7.50pm.&#8216;&#8216;The liftoff and the first stage separation was smooth. But it faltered just before the second stage separation and behaved erratically, deviating from its coordinated path. Further analysis is on to ascertain the cause,&#8217;&#8217; said a source. 

The entire trajectory of Monday&#8217;s trial was tracked by a battery of sophisticated radars, telemetry observation stations, electro-optic instruments and a naval ship. 

The launch, originally scheduled in the first week of this month, was deferred due to some technical snags in its pneumatic system. Though the snags were rectified, another glitch surfaced during Monday&#8217;s test, leading to the fiasco, the source claimed. 

The nuclear capable 2,000-km-plus range missile has a length of 20 meters, a diameter of one meter, weighs 17 tonnes and can carry a payload of around 1,000 kg. It was first tested on April 11, 1999. 

The test launch was significant from India's strategic point of view because for the first time since the beginning of DRDO&#8217;s missile development programme, a missile was put under trial during night. The user trial was conducted by Army officials while scientists from DRDO were present to provide necessary logistical support.


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## Bossman

Nishant UAV Crashlanded during a Test Flight

An unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV), Nishant, which was on a test flight, crashlanded in an agricultural land at Chikkatumutagiri in Bangarpet taluk on Friday following technical problem. The UAV was scheduled to land at Defence Research and Development and Development (DRDO) premises at Muduwadi Hosahalli in Kolar taluk. The vehicle was launched at 11 am and was scheduled to return at 4 pm after flying over Hosur in Tamil Nadu. However, it developed problems around 2.45 and crashlanded with a loud sound. Wings were damaged in the accident. No one was injured in the accident.

On hearing the thud, a teacher and students in a nearby school rushed out and saw the damaged vehicle. In Bangalore, a DRDO spokesperson denied that the UAV had crashlanded. However, he confirmed that the UAV was the advanced version of Nishant.

Spokesperson Jayaprakash maintained that the wings of the UAV were slightly damaged when the aircraft landed on an uneven ground. "The area where the UAV landed was earmarked for emergency landings and it landed using a parachute. The villagers assumed it was a crash," he claimed.He also said that there was no significant damage and that the aircraft was going to be used again.


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## Bossman

DRDO scientists accused of human sacrifice bid
12 October 2009, 11:40am IST
BHOPAL: Two senior scientists of the Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO) in Gwalior, who allegedly tried to kill their junior colleague in a human sacrifice bid, will be interrogated as soon they return from leave, police said on Monday. 

"We can't say anything right now. The picture would be clear after the scientists' statements are recorded," Gwalior additional superintendent of police Manohar Verma said. 

Shradha Sharma, wife of Sushil Kumar, a junior scientist at the DRDO, had complained to the police on Saturday night that two senior scientists - M. Kameshwar Rao and A.S.S.V Bhaskar - had tried to kill her husband as part of a human sacrifice ritual. 

Shradha said that Rao invited Sushil, who was unwell at the time, to his residence in the DRDO campus Oct 6 night to "cure" him. When Sushil reached there, the scientist was performing a worship ritual in the presence of Bhaskar and then he asked him (Sushil) to sleep. 

"As he went to sleep, the scientist sprinkled water on him and took out a sharp-edged weapon but Sushil suddenly woke up and escaped," his wife told the police. 

The police Sunday filed a case against the senior scientists for causing hurt, criminal intimidation and for wrongful confinement, Verma said. 

"We would record the statements of both the accused after they return from their leave and resume work...perhaps by Tuesday," the officer said. 

The police are seeking help from senior officials, including Col V.N. Bharadwaj of the DRDO. 

"We are also investigating the matter from other angles and trying to gather as much information as possible from various sources like the security guard, neighbours etc," Verma said


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## Bossman

Ecuador may return Indian helicopters after crash:

Moscow, Thursday, October 29, 2009: Ecuador could return 6 helicopters recently bought from an Indian company after one of the aircraft crashed at an air show last week, the Unverso newspaper reported on Thursday. 

One of the 7 Dhruv combat helicopters Ecuador had purchased from Hindustan Aeronautics Limited crashed during an air show in the Ecuadoran capital, Quito, last Saturday, injuring the pilot and co-pilot. 

Ecuadoran Air Force chief Rodrigo Bohorquez was quoted as saying the contract allowed the return in the event of an irreparable fault. 

A special commission is investigating the accident. 

The rearmament of the Ecuadoran Air Force was announced in August. The Latin American country's government said it was ready to buy aircraft from Brazil and South Africa. In late September, Ecuadoran President Rafael Correa said combat aircraft from any nations, be it Venezuela, Colombia, the United States or Israel, would be welcome as gifts. 

Venezuela has already given Ecuador 6 Mirage-50 planes it had substituted with more advanced Russian Sukhoi jets. Last year, Ecuador also received three Russian Mi-17 helicopters to carry out defense and patrol missions. 

After Moscow talks between President Dmitry Medvedev and Correa on Thursday a contract was signed on the delivery of 2 Mi-171E helicopters. 

RIAN

---------- Post added at 09:32 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:32 AM ----------

TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 17, 2009
India's Rustom UAV Crashes During First Flight
Bad news. The first technology demonstrator of India's RUSTOM medium altitude long endurance (MALE) unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) programme crashed during its first test flight on Tuesday, November 16, at the Taneja Aerospace airfield near Hosur in Karnataka. Sources present at the test have told LiveFist that the Rustom took off and flew for a bit. One its return path, it crashed into a grove of coconut trees. The RUSTOM-1was almost completely destroyed in the mishap. The DRDO statement issued today smacks of a muff-up. "The taxing and take-off was exactly as planned. Due to misjudgment of altitude of the flight, the on-board engine was switched off through ground command which made the on-board thrust developed to go to zero. There are a lot of gains from the flight," the DRDO statement says. Whenever anyone says there have been "gains", and even if it's true, you can bet your last buck that it's been a bad accident (see photo on the left ©The New Indian Express)

It goes on to add, "The flight proved the functioning of a number of systems such as aerodynamics, redundant flight control, engine, redundant data link etc which go a long way towards development of complex UAVs. A lot of planning and care have been taken and notification through relevant authorities were done in order to cater for safety aspects in addition to taking a third party insurance for the flights. It is the first flight of its kind using a 700 kg airframe & sophisticated controls & hence prone to development hazards." The photo to the left shows the late Professor Rustom Behram Damania (after whom the UAV programme is named) demonstrating the Light Canard Research Aircraft (LCRA) to then President KR Narayanan. Prof Damania pioneered the LCRA upon which the Rustom UAV is based, though he is better known for his work on the Hansa light composite trainer.

The crash is an undeniable blow to the Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE), which was in the midst of pioneering the Rustom, first displayed to the public at Aero India 2009 (see photo at top). Here's hoping the ADE team quickly finds out what went wrong and moves forward. This is a Rs 1,000-crore programme that we cannot afford to have delayed, as it indubitably now will be. Stay tuned for updates.


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## acetophenol

6.For the Indian Air Force, DRDO has developed Retarder Tail Units and fuze systems for the 450 kg bomb used by strike aircraft, 68 mm "Arrow" rockets (HE, Practice and HEAT) for rocket pods used in an air to ground and even air to air (if need be), a 450 kg high speed low drag (HSLD) bomb and practice bombs (which mimic different projectiles with the addition of suitable drag plates) and escape aid cartridges for Air Force aircraft. All these items are in production.


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## Bossman

Ajai Shukla
HAL, Bangalore
Business Standard, 2nd Sept 09

The Indian Air Force is desperately short of aircraft for training its flight cadets. With the entire fleet of basic trainers --- the HPT-32 Deepak --- grounded after a series of crashes, advanced training is suffering equally due to unexpected delays in the manufacture of the Hawk advanced jet trainer (AJT) in India.

Now HAL, under sharp attack for the delays, has unequivocally blamed BAE Systems, UK for failing to properly honour its contract to transfer technology, design drawings, tools, manufacturing jigs and components essential for smoothly rolling out the Hawk in India.

BAE Systems, UK had signed a $1.2 billion contract with India&#8217;s Ministry of Defence (MoD) in 2004 to supply 24 ready-built Hawk-132 AJTs (already delivered) and transfer the technology for building another 42 in HAL, Bangalore.

According to the contracted schedule, the first 15 Hawks should have already been built in Bangalore. Instead, only 5 have been completed.

HAL&#8217;s Chairman, Ashok Nayak, has listed out for Business Standard a string of lapses by BAE Systems, which, he alleges, is behind this delay. &#8220;This is the first time that BAE Systems has transferred technology for building the Hawk-132 AJT abroad. Some of the jigs (frames on which aircraft parts are assembled) and tooling that they supplied HAL relate to earlier models of the Hawk, which has gone through several versions over the years.&#8221;

BAE Systems last transferred Hawk technology abroad more than a decade ago, when Australia built 21 Hawk-127 trainers --- an earlier version of the Hawk --- in the late 1990s.

Mr Nayak also says that when HAL pointed out the discrepancy to the BAE Systems team stationed at the Hawk assembly line, &#8220;they had to refer back to the UK for everything. They weren&#8217;t able to address these issues themselves.&#8221;

While most issues have now been resolved, there are still some continuing delays. Hawk windscreens, manufactured by Indian vendors must be sent to BAE Systems, UK for certifying their strength and clarity. This procedure, says HAL, is taking unduly long.

Guy Douglas, BAE Systems&#8217; spokesperson in India, strongly refutes HAL&#8217;s version. In an emailed response, he states &#8220;BAE Systems does not accept that the programme delays being experienced by HAL, on their contract with the Government of India, are materially down to BAE Systems. BAE Systems has completed all hardware deliveries to support the licence-build programme. BAE Systems has repeatedly made clear that it stands ready to assist HAL, should they require it. In this respect, a number of proposals have been made by BAE Systems to HAL and we await their response.&#8221;

Ashok Nayak denies that HAL has had any difficulties in assimilating the technology needed for manufacturing the Hawk in India.

The HAL Chairman states, &#8220;We have assembled the Jaguar and other aircraft. That is not the problem. Why were the jigs and fixtures that [BAE Systems] supplied incorrect? We have their Technical Assistance Team&#8217;s signatures on each and every one of them. I can quote you minimum 300 such examples, and some of them took weeks to sort out.&#8221;

Nor is the MoD impressed with BAE Systems&#8217; execution of the Hawk contract, signalling its disapproval earlier this year by floating a fresh global inquiry for India&#8217;s requirement of 57 additional trainers. That was an unambiguous rap on the knuckles for BAE Systems; with an assembly line already producing AJTs in Bangalore, the additional requirement would normally have been added on to the ongoing licensed production.

Now, however, BAE Systems is back in talks with South Block over the order for 57 more Hawks.


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## Water Car Engineer

^^^

Poor frustrated Pakistani, just don't want to see India going up the ladder.


















More pictures INS Kochi destroyer.







INS Chennai destroyer






Shivalik Frigate firing


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## acetophenol

7.Radar warning receivers for the Indian Air Force of the Tarang (wave) series. These have been selected for most of the Indian Air Force's aircraft such as for the MiG-21 Upgrade (Bison Upgrade), MiG-29, Su-30 MKI, MiG- 27 Upgrade, Jaguar Upgrade as well as self protection upgrades for the transport fleet. The Tranquil RWR for MiG -23s (superseded by the Tarang project) and the Tempest jamming system for the Air Force's MiG's. The latest variant of the Tempest jamming system is capable of noise, barrage, as well as deception jamming as it makes use of DRFM. The DRDO has also developed a High Accuracy Direction Finding system (HADF) for the Indian Air Force's Su-30 MKIs which are fitted in the modular "Siva" pod capable of supersonic carriage. This HADF pod is meant to cue Kh-31 Anti radiation missiles used by the Su-30 MKI for SEAD (Suppression of Enemy Air Defences).


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## Bossman

Govt announces closure of work on Trishul missile
27 Feb 2008, 1650 hrs IST,PTI
Print Save EMail Write to Editor 




NEW DELHI: After incurring a staggering cost of Rs 282.68 crore on its development, Government on Wednesday announced the closure of work on the multi-mission Trishul missile. 

"Development of Trishul missile system has been completed as technology demonstrator," Defence Minister A K Antony said in a written reply in Rajya Sabha. 

He said till January this year, a sum of Rs 282.68 crore had been incurred on the development of the system. A number of trials of the missile had been unsuccessful. 

The Minister said the country's Integrated Guided Missile Development Programme (IGMDP) has not been abandoned, but was near completion. 

He said under the programme, surface-to-surface missiles Agni and shorter range Prithvi have been successfully test fired and were in various stages of induction. 

For the development of technology demonstrator Agni version and 250 and 350 kms range Prithvi missiles, the cost incurred has been Rs 372.29 crores, he said. 

But it was the surface-to-air Akash missile which had cost the exchequer the highest investment of Rs 516.86 crore for its development. 

The missile has also taken the maximum time to develop. But the recent spate of user trials of the missile had been accurate within the desired limits of lethality, Antony said


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## acetophenol

DRDO stated in 2009 that its latest Radar Warning Receiver for the Indian Air Force, the R118, had gone into production. The R118 can also sensor fuse data from different sensors such as the aircraft radar, missile/laser warning systems and present the unified data on the multi-function display. The DRDO also noted that its new Radar Warner Jammer systems (RWJ) were at an advanced stage of development, and would be submitted for trials.The RWJ is capable of detecting all foreseen threats, and jamming multiple targets simultaneously. At the same time, another high accuracy ESM system is being developed by the DRDO for the AEW&C project.


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## Bossman

India admits failed cruise missile test:


New Delhi, Wednesday, January 21, 2009: A supersonic cruise missile jointly developed by Russia and India failed to hit its target in a test previously reported as successful, Indian military scientists said Wednesday. 

The Defence Research and Development Organisation, which on Tuesday claimed the test of the BrahMos missile had been a &#8216;total success,&#8217; said the missile had flown only in the general direction of its target. 

&#8216;The missile performance was absolutely normal till the last phase, but it missed the target, though it maintained the direction,&#8217; BrahMos project chief Sivathanu Pillai told the Press Trust of India. 

The 8 m (26 ft) missile weighs about three metric tonnes and can be launched from land, ships, submarines or aircraft, travelling at a speed of up to Mach 2.8. 

It has a range of 290 kms (180 miles) and is designed to carry a conventional warhead. 

The missile was fired from the Pokhran range in the western desert state of Rajasthan, bordering Pakistan that was also the site of India's nuclear tests in 1998. 

The Times of India newspaper Wednesday suggested the failure was a result of an attempt to configure the missile to carry a nuclear warhead. 

Pillai did not comment on the newspaper's report but said his scientists were trying to debug the guidance system of a missile that had been tested 20 times in the past 8 years. 

&#8216;A new software used for this mission will be revalidated through extensive simulations and a flight trial will be carried out in a month's time to prove the augmented capabilities of the missile,&#8217; he said. 

India and Russia &#8212; its largest military supplier &#8212;hope to mass produce the BrahMos for export. 

Nuclear-armed India, the largest arms buyer among emerging countries, has already begun arming its navy and army with the BrahMos as a tactical battlefield weapons system. 

The missile is named after India's Brahmaputra River and Russia's Moskva River. 

D


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## acetophenol

se; delete


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## Bossman

Defence Chiefs unhappy with frequent grounding of Dhruvs, complain to HAL
The Hindu : National : Defence Chiefs unhappy with frequent grounding of Dhruvs, complain to HAL
Ravi Sharma 



Bangalore: With a number of Advanced Light Helicopters (ALHs) being frequently grounded because of paucity of spares and serviceability problems, the three defence Chiefs have expressed their unhappiness to the manufacturer, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). 
The crux of the Chiefs message is that even as they would like to see a faster and on-time induction schedule, they would also necessarily like to have in their inventories, trouble-free flying helicopters.
Sources told The Hindu that the Chiefs have communicated to the HAL, Bangalore that it was paramount that the ALHs be available for flying duties more often than they were at present. 
According to a senior Indian Air Force pilot, while a serviceability of 70 to 80 per cent of all available helicopters was desirable at any given time, the ALHs inducted so far were yet to come close to that figure. 
The communication is a follow-up to complaints made by senior defence officers including the Deputy Army Chief, when they met officials from the HAL and the Defence Minister A.K. Antony during the latters maiden visit to the public sector unit after he had taken charge of the defence portfolio. The Army has been most vociferous in its protests, since Army Aviation is the biggest user of the ALH.
The ALHs, christened Dhruv, were inducted into the armed forces in 2002 with the first one going to the Indian Coast Guard. Currently around 70 Dhruvs have been inducted into the defence forces, with a majority in the inventory of Army Aviation.
While acknowledging that induction was a painful process requiring the setting up of ground support and handling equipment, ground spares support, placing in position warranty and product support teams, senior officials in the HAL agreed that the ALH programme was yet to mature to desirable levels. 
Experts said the problems were compounded because the HAL was compelled to launch the helicopters production phase simultaneously with its limited series production phase. 
This was because the ALH project, launched in November 1984, was years behind schedule and had to be speeded up. 
Sources said the defence major had taken note of the observations regarding the vibration problem and the non-availability of spares and had initiated corrective steps.


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## acetophenol

Other EW projects revealed by the DRDO include the MAWS project (a joint venture by the DRDO and EADS) which leverages EADS hardware and DRDO software to develop MAWS systems for transport, helicopter and fighter fleets. DRDO also has laser warning systems available.
A DIRCM (Directed Infra Red Countermeasures) project to field a worldclass DIRCM system intended to protect aircraft from infra Red guided weapons.
The DRDO is also developing an all new ESM project in cooperation with the Indian Air Force's Signals Intelligence Directorate, under the name of "Divya Drishti" (Divine Sight). Divya Drishti will field a range of static as well as mobile ESM stations that can "fingerprint" and track multiple airborne targets for mission analysis purposes. The system will be able to intercept a range of radio frequency emissions, whether radar, navigational, communication or electronic countermeasure signals. The various components of the project will be networked via SATCOM links.
Additional DRDO EW projects delivered to the Indian Air Force have include the COIN A and COIN B SIGINT stations. DRDO and BEL developed ELINT equipment for the Indian Air Force, installed on the service's Boeing 737s and Hawker Siddeley Avro aircraft. DRDO has also developed a Radar Fingerprinting System for the IAF and the Navy. The Indian Air Force's AEW&C systems currently being developed by the DRDO will also include a comprehensive ESM suite, capable of picking up both radars as well as conduct COMINT (Communications Intelligence).


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## Bossman

Despite India's protests, Vietnam buys arms from Pakistan:

Ignoring concerns of its long standing ally India, Vietnam has 
purchased a second consignment of small arms from Pakistan


Friday, August 17, 2007: According to Defence Weekly, Vietnam acquired 100 SMG-PK 9 mm submachine guns and 50 sniper rifles from the state-run Pakistan Ordnance Factories (POF) in Rawalpindi as a follow-on order to an equal number of similar weapons it purchased last year. 

The SMG-PK is configured on the Heckler & Koch MP5 series of which four models are available. 

India, which has burgeoning defence relations with Hanoi, "discreetly" protested the acquisition by Vietnam's police ministry for its counter-terrorism unit, reports, but to little avail. 

Military analysts in New Delhi said India's hesitancy in vindicating its assurances to Vietnam of providing it varied military hardware, including the locally designed surface-to-surface Prithvi missile, could well be responsible for Hanoi turning to Pakistan, albeit to partially meet its defence requirements. 

India's vast military-industrial complex also does not produce submachine guns or sniper rifles, despite years of attempts by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) to design both. 

India recently imported sniper rifles from Israel while a contract to import submachine guns and carbines is under consideration by the army. 

"India is handicapped by its excessive caution in boldly exercising its strategic options coupled with its highly complex and uncoordinated procedures required to export military goods," Major General Sheru Thapliyal (retd) said. In a world of quick shifting strategic alignments, India will be left behind if it does not resolve both these shortcomings, he warned. 

(India is quite aggressive against its small neighbors. 
It exercises caution only in case of China and we all know why.) 

India strongly supported North Vietnam in its war with the US in the 1960s and 1970s in the face of tremendous Western opposition and began developing defence ties with it in the mid-1990s as part of its wider Look East approach. 

This strategy proliferated in recent years as nuclear rival China, with its peaceful rise, has steadily been fashioning political, economic and military dependencies around its strategic periphery particularly in East and Southeast Asia through multilateral economic and military engagement. 

There is also a growing feeling amongst Indian and Western analysts that Asia's strategic architecture created over decades by the US through its military deployments and engagement policies appears to be crumbling, giving way to an ascendant China. 

This, in turn, was fostering a deep sense of uncertainty and insecurity among many Asian states, including India, even though diplomatic, military economic and political ties between Delhi and Beijing were steadily improving. 

HT


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## acetophenol

first test protoype of indian awacs:


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## Bossman

Indias Defense Lab Seen as National Industry Failure 
Lawmakers Report Says DRDO Falls Far Short of Goals 

By VIVEK RAGHUVANSHI, NEW DELHI 


India is at most halfway to its goal of producing 70 percent of the militarys weapons, and lawmakers blame the state-owned Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO). 
Five years after launching an indigenization plan, domestic plants supply only 30 percent to 35 percent of the militarys needs, forcing the military to import far more arms than planned, according to a March 16 report by members of the parliaments Defence Committee.
The Committee are not happy to be informed of this, said the 148-page report, the committees fourteenth in a series about the lab. This gives an impression to the Committee that the country is still largely dependent on imports of defense products and the DRDO, even after 48 years of its formation, has not been able to achieve its targeted mission of self-reliance in defense production.
Defense News obtained a copy of the report.
And thats just the latest blast at the state-owned defense lab, whose sluggish pace is blamed for slowing the development of weapons, running up their costs and hurting military readiness.
One Indian Army official blamed DRDO for failing to catalyze indigenous production even of low-tech goods such as rifles, bulletproof jackets and winter-weather clothing.
Now the Indian Defence Ministry wants to revamp the 49-year-old DRDO. A new eight-member committee will recommend changes to the lab by years end, Defence Minister A.K. Antony told the Indian Parliament March 22. The group will be led by P. Rama Rao, a former secretary at the Department of Science and Technology.
The other members are Ajit Bhavnani, retired air marshal and former Air Force vice chief; C. S. Cheema, retired Army lieutenant general and former director-general of artillery; A.K. Ghosh, former financial adviser at the Defence Ministry; T.P. Ghoshal of Jadavpur University; Pravesh Jaitly, retired vice admiral and the Nayvs former chief of materials; Satish Kaura, chairman of the Samtel Group of Industries, based here; and Krishnadas Nair, former chairman of Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL).
Defense analyst Nitin Mehta said the committee might cool tempers but is unlikely to alter the bureaucracy or galvanize private-sector arms development. That will come only after the private sector stops teaming up with major overseas defense companies.
DRDO has as many as 439 projects worth $3.7 billion, and its 50 laboratories, mostly in the south of India, have more than 33,000 personnel.
The report noted that 32 years after DRDO began work on the Arjun tank, only 15 of the 124 tanks have been delivered by the Heavy Vehicle Factory in Avadhi.
Among DRDOs key projects, most of them delayed by 10 to 15 years, are:
 The Integrated Guided Missile Program. Launched in the 1980s, it includes theater missiles, the Nag anti-tank missile and the Quick Reaction Missile.
 A ballistic missile effort that includes the 3,000-kilometer Agni-3 program. 
 Advanced Unmanned Aerial Vehicle. 
 Indian Air Force Airborne Warning and Control System program. 
 Indian Navy nuclear submarine.
 Light Combat Aircraft. 
 Medium Combat Aircraft. 
 Anti-ballistic missile project. 
 Communications for the C4I program and air defense.
DRDO officials declined to comment because the Parliament is still in session.
A DRDO scientist said the delays are mostly due to poor coordination between the DRDO and the Indian Army, Navy and Air Force, which often change their requirements.
Over the past five years, India has imported arms and defense gear worth $12.9 billion, compared with $7.8 billion in 1998 through 2001, said defense analyst Mahindra Singh, a retired Indian Army brigadier.
In 2005, Indias defense imports totaled $5.4 billion, topping Saudi Arabias $3.4 billion and Chinas $2.8 billion, Singh said. In 2006, the country imported $1.5 billion in arms and defense gear from Israel alone.  
E-mail: vraghuvanshi@defensenews.com.


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## Bossman

Indian missile a &#8216;dud&#8217;, air force doesn&#8217;t want it EnlargeA file picture of the Akash missile system 

Serious doubts have been raised by air force officers about the effectiveness of the Akash missile system, according to confidential documents of the Indian Air Force (IAF) seen by HT. The surface-to-air missile system, developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), consistently failed during trials, the papers show.

DRDO&#8217;s fault?

Surface-to-air Trishul missile system was scrapped last year. It remained at trial stage for 23 years.

Main battle tank Arjun has been undergoing trials for the past 16 years. The Russian T-90 is still the mainstay of the armoured corps. 

Light combat aircraft Tejas is still at trial stage after 23 years. The date of completion for its engine has been revised from 1996 to 2009. 

In March, a parliamentary standing committee on defence recommended a complete review of the structure and functioning of the DRDO.

The DRDO says all doubts have been cleared and the missile system is a success. But the IAF is yet to buy and deploy the missile system.

Doubts about the medium-range Akash missile system, developed at a cost of Rs 800 crore after more than two decades of research and trials, emerged at a meeting called by the Western Air Command in Delhi last year. Sixty middle-level and senior IAF officers attended the meeting.

A presentation, based on the report of an IAF expert who had witnessed the trials, contained several startling revelations. &#8220;The IAF expert witnessed repeated cases of missile parts falling off during many trials. He recommended that the Akash missile system was not fit to be deployed,&#8221; a senior officer, who attended the presentation, told HT.

Pointing out major flaws in this missile system, developed as a part of the country&#8217;s Integrated Guided Missile Development Programme, the report presented to the IAF officers says, &#8220;The expert noticed it took 25 minutes to load a single missile on the launcher, which rendered this missile system unfit for use in war-like situations. The night loading time would therefore automatically be twice more than daytime.&#8221;

Describing the Akash missile trials as a &#8220;disaster&#8221;, the presentation report says, &#8220;Out of 20 test trials seen by the IAF expert, the majority of them ended in a failure.&#8221;

"It was not capable of picking up low-level targets over any sea, due to multi-path reflection. The missile warhead was also not capable of engaging present-generation targets, due to repeated failures," the report says.

However, the DRDO has strongly defended the missile system. In a written response to queries by HT, the DRDO said it was "fully satisfied with the current status of trials of Akash. Currently all doubts have been cleared and resolved".

"The missile system is now complete after successful trials and the organisation is confident about its success," the DRDO added.

The IAF report criticised the DRDO and senior officials from the Ministry of Defence, saying, "There was deliberate data suppression and the IAF was pressured to either change or withdraw the report."

The report indicates that desperate moves were made during the trials to prove that the system was a success. "A radar was placed on a 13-metre-high platform for all trials, to increase the efficiency of the missile system artificially, which would not be the case in hostile conditions of war," it says. 

Cautioning the IAF on the limitations of the Akash missile system, the report says, "In its present status, Project Akash cannot meet the operational requirements of the IAF, due to major design flaws, and if the IAF wanted to use this particular missile system, then it would have to lower its acceptability standards."

The DRDO, however, said the Akash missile system had an edge over other systems due to its multi-target handling capacity, being a fully automatic system. It said since the system was completely indigenous, it could be quickly upgraded within the country

---------- Post added at 09:41 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:40 AM ----------

 Defence Weekly VOLUME 43 | ISSUE 44 | 1 NOVEMBER 2006

Questions arise over DRDOs effectiveness

RAHUL BEDI Correspondent

New Delhi


The recent clamour in India over the alleged improper import of Israel Aircraft Systems/Rafeal Armament Development Authority Barak-1 point defence missile systems has high lighted issues relating to the efficacy of the country's premier weapons developing agency . The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO). It has also excited debate within the military over the questionable dependency of succeeding administrations on the DRDO in belief of its ability to develop a varied range of defence equipment. This has adversely affected India's defence modernisation, senior service officers said. The DRDO is forever promising but rarely ever delivering as it is preoccupied with reinventing the wheel. This forces India to resort to imports in order to modernise and upgrade its military but that gets swathed in controversy, Brigadier Arun Sahgal of the United Service Institution in New Delhi said. The failure of the DRDO's Trishul project, involving development of a new low-altitude surface-to-air missile (SAM), resulted in the navy acquiring the Barak-1 system in 2000. The Barak-1 equips most frontline battle ships. The DRDO recommended against the acquisition, which is now the subject of an investigation by the Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI). Further, the case has seen a broad range of military purchases stall as officials hold off on decisions on concerns over potential future prosecutions. On 10 October the CBI laid corruption charges against former defence minister George Fernandes and retired Indian Navy commander in-chief Sushil Kumar, as well as other politicians and middlemen in connection with the USD25 million Barak deal. On 18 October Defence Minister Pranab Mukherjee, who has since been shifted to the foreign affairs portfolio, overruled the DRDO to give the Trishul short-range SAMs project a further year of funding until the end of 2007. A day earlier the development agency declared the Trishul a simple "technology demonstrator" after 25 years of effort and 40 test launches together costing INR3 billion (USD66.2 million). The Trishul programme is only the latest in a series of DRDO projects plagued by cost and time overrun,and heavily import dependent. These include the Akash SAM, Nag antitank missile, Tejas light combat aircraft, Arjun main battle tank, Dhruv advanced light helicopter, Nishant unmanned aerial vehicle and the Lakshya pilot-less target drone. Some, like the Tejas, are no where near completion while others, like the Arjun, are unacceptable to the users. New Delhi established a Self-Reliant
Implementation Council in 1995 and declared that, with the DRDO's assistance, it would boost the level of indigenous equipment in the services from 30 per cent to 70 per cent in a decade. Efforts have so far fallen short,with import dependency proliferating. The DRDO's problem is that it is over ambitious.There is no co-ordination between it and the users, retired Indian Army chief-of-staff Shankar Roy-Chowdhury said recently.
The DRDO has a workforce of 40,000, including some 8,000 scientists and a network of over 50 laboratories. It has a similar number of science and technology units and about 70 academic institutions. Military officials concede reform efforts launched in the mid-1990s have made little difference. These saw the agency restructured through terminating scores of "low-end" projects found to be costly and time
consuming and by involving the private sector.

---------- Post added at 09:41 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:41 AM ----------

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php...6224&C=landwar

India To Test Arjun in Exercise; Army Claims Tank Is Faulty 

By VIVEK RAGHUVANSHI, NEW DELHI 


India will test its 14 Arjun main battle tanks in June desert exercises alongside, and in comparison to, Russian T-90 and T-72 tanks.
But Army officials have already declared that the indigenous tank is not fit for combat. 
Conceived in 1974 at an original design and development cost of $3.6 million, the Arjun tank program under the Defence Research and Development Organization now costs $83.33 million. The Arjun tank was to have replaced the aging T-72, but development delays led the service to order T-90s after the Kargil battle in 1999, and the Army still says it has a serious shortage of main battle tanks. The T-90 now serves as India&#8217;s main battle tank.
An Army official said next month&#8217;s exercises are user and comparative trials in the deserts of Rajasthan. 
Army sources said the Arjun continues to be only a training tank and is not yet qualified for combat, as it is very heavy and will need many changes in its logistics tail, including the size of the rail cars that transport them.
But a Defence Ministry official said the Arjun&#8217;s defects have been removed, and if it passes next month&#8217;s tests, more production orders will be placed with the state-owned Heavy Vehicles Factory, Avadhi.
Army officials disagree, saying there are still at least a dozen defects in the tank, including a deficient fire-control system, inaccurate gun and faulty air conditioning that makes it difficult to operate in very hot conditions.
The quality of the Arjun tank also has been a concern for the Parliament&#8217;s Standing Committee for Defence, which in its 16th Report in 2006-&#8217;07 said that one official had testified, &#8220;I am afraid our quality control is very poor. I have heard that five tanks were presented before the media. However, when the media and other people went away, the tanks were put back in the factory because still some quality checks had to be made. 
&#8220;The biggest problem in India in respect of defense production is quality control. If China can do it, why can we not do it?&#8221;
The Defence Ministry official admitted that there is a shortfall of about 3,500 tanks and that the delivery schedule of the Arjun is not satisfactory. The Army is junking more tanks in the next two to three years than it will be inducting, which will lead to further shortfalls. The Army sources said that around 1,000 tanks out of the 3,000 now in service will be junked by 2008.
If the Arjun is not cleared for combat, the Army will need to purchase more tanks besides the T-90 from overseas markets and upgrade more than 1,600 of its T-72 tanks, the Army sources said. &#8226;


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## Bossman

India shelves Trishul project

By Iftikhar Gilani

link

NEW DELHI: Following repeated failures, India has put the Trishul missile system project on hold. Sources here said that the government-run Defence Research Development Organisation (DRDO) has been told to stop work on Trishul and the project will be wound up by the end of the year. 

The government has asked the DRDO to concentrate now on co-development of the next generation Barak II missile system project that was signed last January as a joint venture with Israel. Barak II is to have a firing range of 60 km. Barak I&#8217;s firing range is 9 km. Ironically, the Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) filed a case against former defence minister George Fernandes and some businessmen only a few days ago for taking bribes in the purchase of Barak missile systems.

Fernandes had ordered five Barak systems while the present government has ordered seven more after they were certified as the best by the Indian Navy. 

Trishul has been a pet project of President APJ Abdul Kalam, who used to be the chief of the DRDO. The end of Trishul is seen here as a major blow to the DRDO, which had already been under attack in the Defence Ministry for the failing guidance and propulsion mechanisms of the long-gestation project.

Fernandes went for the Barak purchase in 2000 on the Indian Navy&#8217;s insistence but he did not kill the Trishul project. After some 50 trials and estimated expenditure of over Rs 3 billion on Trishul over the past 22 years, the Indian Navy told the government to junk it two years ago. 

Trishul was developed as a short range missile with three variants as part of the Integrated Missile Development Programme (IGMDP). It was meant for a range of 12 km fitted with a 15 kg warhead. Designed to be used against low-level (sea skimming) targets at short range, the system aimed to defend naval vessels against missiles and also as a short range surface to air missile on land. 

In 2004, the DRDO was told to remove Trishul from the list of active programmes for the user, meaning it need not be developed to meet the requirements of the Indian Navy. It was, however, allowed to continue the project as an exercise in &#8220;technology demonstration&#8221;. The navy has since told the government that even demonstrations are unnecessary after India struck a deal with the Barak manufacturers for joint development of future systems. 

Chief of Naval Staff Admiral Arun Prakash has stated that there should be no doubts about the Barak&#8217;s capabilities. &#8220;Our experience with the Barak missile has been good. We are happy with it,&#8221; he said. &#8220;Trishul&#8221; means trident in Sanskrit, while &#8220;Barak&#8221; stands for lightning in Hebrew.


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## acetophenol

INDRA series of 2D radars meant for Army and Air Force use. This was the first high power radar developed by the DRDO, with the Indra -I radar for the Indian Army, followed by Indra Pulse Compression (PC) version for the Indian Air Force, also known as the Indra-II, which is a low level radar to search and track low flying cruise missiles, helicopters and aircraft. These are basically 2D radars which provide range, and azimuth information, and are meant to be used as gapfillers. The Indra 2 PC has pulse compression providing improved range resolution. The series are used both by the Indian Air Force and the Indian Army


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## Bossman

India's Zombie Jet Fighter 
by James Dunnigan
April 23, 2006

StrategyPage Error Page 2

India, like the United States, has weapons development projects that go on and on, to the point where the weapon is obsolete, but has too many political supporters to allow it to be cancelled. India has a number of these boondoggles, most of them missiles or aircraft. These problems arose when, in the 1980s, India decided to develop and build certain weapons themselves. This kept money and jobs in India, and eliminated dependence on foreigners for these weapons. All good in theory, but in practice, there were major problems. 

Take, for example, the Indian attempt to build a jet fighter to replace their Russian MiG-21s. To address this need, in 1983 India began their "Light Combat Aircraft" (or "Tejas") project. Building something better than the 1950s era MiG-21 didn't seem too difficult. But 23 years later, the Tejas is still in development. The aircraft has become something of a zombie project. It can be killed, or really brought to life. Even with 500 test flights, there are still serious problems that prevent putting the aircraft into production. The MiG-21s are still in service, and falling apart. The situation is getting critical. 

The good news is that the Tejas will be cheap, costing about $25 million each. The bad news is that most of the key elements of the Tejas development have moved at a glacial pace. The final design was not finished until 1990. The most critical part of the aircraft, the engine, was to have been Indian made, but the "Kaveri" engine, designed and built with Russian assistance, has yet to come together. The Tejas has been flight tested mainly with the American F404 engine, which is also used in the U.S. F-18 and F-117A, and the Swedish Gripen. The Indians finally agreed to collaborate with foreign engine makers, to get the Kaveri engine working. This is what the Swedes did, licensing F404 technology from U.S. manufacturer General Electric, to build their own engine. The Indians currently plan to have the Tejas in service by 2010, even if the initial squadrons have to use American made F404 engines.

The Tejas is smaller than the F-16 and nearly the same size as the Swedish Gripen. Unlike the Gripen, Tejas has less capable electronics and has not been in service for ten years already. India had hoped to export the Tejas, but with competition like Gripen, and continuing problems designing components, it's going to be rough going. Since India only needs a few hundred Tejas, lack of export orders means higher per-aircraft cost (as fewer aircraft absorb the development cost). Thus, there will be charges that it would have been cheaper to buy the Gripen, or Mirage 2000, or even the many second-hand F-16s available, than to develop Tejas. On the plus side, the Tejas project also created an Indian capability to develop jet fighters, including the complex engines. China also found that developing this kind of capability is not cheap, and projects like Tejas are how you pay for your new skills.


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## Bossman

StrategyPage Error Page 2

Arjun, the Big Tank That Couldn't 

May 30, 2006: Another Indian weapons program has turned into a disaster. This time it's the Arjun tank. Development began in the 1980s, and so far, the army only has five of the tanks, for evaluation purposes. The evaluation is not going well. Originally, the Arjun was to have replaced thousands of Russian tanks, but now, after so many delays, the army only wants 128 Arjuns. But even that may be too optimistic. As has so often happened with other weapons projects, the Arjun is having problems with its electronics. In this case, it's the fire control system. But Arjun has also had problems with its engine, and that fact that its size and weight prevents it from being used with current tank transporters. The Defense Ministry cannot bring itself to admit defeat, so all attempts to just cancel Arjun have failed. Instead, the number ordered will be reduced until, well, perhaps none will appear in regular service.

---------- Post added at 09:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:47 AM ----------

DRDO muddles through 439 projects:


New Delhi: From missiles, radars and electronic warfare programmes to even juices, mosquito repellents and titanium dental implants, the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) does it all. And, by and large, flounders in them all, with technical glitches, time and cost overruns. 

Amid growing demand by armed forces and experts that DRDO &#8220;concentrate&#8221; only on &#8220;a few core and critical areas&#8221; to bolster the country&#8217;s defence preparedness, latest statistics show the organisation has as many as 439 ongoing projects at a total cost of a whopping Rs 16,925 Crore (US $ 3.64 Billion)*. "DRDO, with around 29,000 personnel in 50 laboratories and establishments under its umbrella, certainly needs to get its act together. Not even 10% of its total budget (DRDO got Rs 5,454 Crore (US $ 1.17 Billion)* in 2006-07) is spent on fundamental research," says a senior defence official. 

Adds an Army officer, "What is the use of having such a huge defence R&D set-up if it cannot even come up with basics like good bullet-proof jackets, webbing and light-weight ballistic helmets. Even the systems they manage to deliver to us suffer from operational problems." 

The long-standing aim to take the country towards self-reliance in military capabilities, of course, remains a mere pipedream. If in 1991-92, 25% of India&#8217;s total defence expenditure was spent on imports, the case remains the same even now. 

DRDO, of course, has to contend with inadequate funds, with its allocation hovering just around 6% of the total defence budget. Moreover, it&#8217;s not able to attract top scientific talent in the absence of good career prospects and other incentives. 

But even Prime Minister Manmohan Singh recently told DRDO he was "concerned by the problems of cost and time-overruns, which have plagued our defence industry for decades now". 

Consequently, it&#8217;s no wonder that the armed forces prefer the import route because of DRDO&#8217;s long track-record of delivering too-little, too-late. Of the 439 projects, for instance, the really big ones number around 20. But the progress in them, more or less, has been shoddy. 

The Arjun main-battle tank project, for one, was sanctioned way back in 1974. After spending a huge amount of money, the first five Arjun tanks are still being tested for battle-worthiness, with the Army not too keen to induct them. 

Similar is the story with Tejas Light Combat Aircraft, sanctioned in 1983 to replace the country&#8217;s ageing MiG fleet. Though its prototypes have completed over 530 flights, IAF is not fully convinced yet whether it will induct them by even 2012. This when government has already sanctioned Rs 5,489.78 Crore (US $ 1.18 Billion)* for Tejas till now. 

The country&#8217;s integrated guided missile development programme, which kicked off in 1983, has only now shown some progress, with a few Prithvi and Agni missile variants being inducted into the armed forces. 

(* US $ 1.00 = IN Rs 46.5532)

ToI


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## acetophenol

Rajendra fire control radar for the Akash SAM: The Rajendra is stated to be ready. However, it can be expected that further iterative improvements will nonetheless be made. The Rajendra is a high power, P*assive electronically scanned array radar (PESA)**, with the ability able to guide up to 12 Akash SAMs against aircraft flying at low to medium altitudes*. The Rajendra has a detection range of 8o km with 18 km height coverage against small fighter sized targets and is able to track 64 targets, engaging 4 simultaneously, with up to 3 missiles per target. The Rajendra features a fully digital high speed signal processing system with adaptive moving target indicator, coherent signal processing, FFTs, and variable pulse repetition frequency.The entire PESA antenna array can swivel 360 degrees on a rotating platform. This allows the radar antenna to be rapidly repositioned, and even conduct all round surveillance.[35]


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## Bossman

DISMAL PERFORMANCE OF DRDO: A case study of the MBT ARJUN:

by S.Chandrasekharan


On April 27, the Public Accounts Committee in its report to both Houses of Parliament, came down heavily on the Defence ministry for the inordinate delay in the production of the Main Battle Tank- Arjun. It said that the delay overshot the time schedule by 16 years resulting in a cost overrun twenty times more. It may still take two years or more for the tank to be made available thus having an adverse impact on the country&#8217;s preparedness and worse still, the report says that bulk production of these tanks is "nowhere in sight." 

It will be useful to make a case study of Arjun Tank as delays in R&D projects relating to the development of Weapons Systems besides being costly in financial terms have strategic and military/operational implications.

Case Profile of MBT Arjun:

1970 DRDO commences the project for MBT 
1980's (mid) Target date for completion of development as envisaged in the original plan. 
1992-93 MBT Arjun undergoes field trials, 22 years after the commencement of the project. Trials were declared successful. However the then COAS, Gen. Shakar Roy Choudhary suggests some refinement of weapons parameters. 
1997 Proposals for mass production cleared. 
2000 Tank still not made available to user and may take two or more years. 

Two things are clear from this. First, the DRDO took 22 years to develop the pre-production models for field trials. Second, it took another five years of field trials for the decision makers to clear the project. In the first case the onus for delay is with DRDO while in the second, all the parties involved namely the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), Ministry of Defence (MOD), Ministry of Defence Production (MODP) and the Army Headquarters (AHQ) are equally responsible. 

Reasons for Delay:

As there is no integrated management of such projects it is useful to study the role of each agency from the sanctioning authority to producer, to the end user to understand why and how the delays occurred.

DRDO:

The DRDO has no excuses for the delay of 22 years and the only plausible reason one could think of is that the end user AHQ kept on revising the Qualitative Requirements (QRs) midstream thus delaying the project. It is admitted that changing of QRs midstream tends to delay the project but the DRDO could have foreseen this and taken remedial steps.

DRDO had enough experience in R & D while developing the Vijayantha and lessons learnt should have made them anticipate problems like changing QRs.

Secondly the QR changes were confined to weapons systems, fire control system, night vision devices etc. These at any rate were not to be indigenously produced and could have been purchased off the shelf from abroad to speed up the development.

One cannot but conclude that 

* DRDO was wanting in implementation of time-bound project objectives which come only when a project is run on scientific management lines.

* DRDO&#8217;s functioning has got bureaucratised like other agencies viz. the MOD and MODP.

* Lack of accountability which is a major ill in all bureaucracies.

Army Headquarters (AHQ):

Changing QRs midstream does contribute to delay in the project and the Army&#8217;s only excuse could be that the inordinate delay in R & D of MBT coupled with changing threat perceptions and technology advancement of armaments forced them to change the QRs

It is unrealistic to expect the R&D units to revise the project on time if frequent changes of QRs are made for whatever reasons. 

* It should be possible at the initial stage itself to fix a time frame for the validity of QRs and if mass production does not take place within the stipulated period then revised QRs should apply.

* QR changes if any should be realistic and in conformity with Indian tactical requirements, terrain and weather conditions. The tendency to pick up points for QRs from glossy Defence journals should be avoided.

* QRs should not be changed midstream. If it is required for emergent reasons, then it should be applied only for a second phase of the project with variants if any. 

* Military bureaucratisation at Army Head quarters also contributes to delay. Proposals for even small items have to go through many different directorates with each directorate trying to preserve its turf by queries and counter queries and suggestions. Thus, the files go from one to another, back and forth involving waste of precious time. While this could be acceptable at the initial stage, it is inexcusable to allow such sea sawing at the intermediate stages for revision of QRs.

Role of Ordnance Factories Board:

Ordnance Factories provide the vital link between the project managers, here the DRDO and the end users, the Army. It is seen that in most of the cases the Ordnance factories Board make unrealistic and ambitious time schedules and financial plans. The Armed Forces complain that production schedules are never adhered to and overrun in terms of schedule invariably results in cost escalation and thus a vicious cycle is created,. This log jam could be broken only if all the three parties viz. the producer, end user and the link provided by the ordnance board sit together and frankly discuss the capabilities to adhere to a realistic schedule.

This is based on the assumption that there would be no bureaucratic delay on the part of MOD and MODP which in fact is not the case.

MOD and MODP:

Like all other agencies in India the MOD and the MODP are plagued by the following ills.

* Civil Bureaucrats in MOD and MODP have no clue of defence requirements and their criticality. They continue to treat all issues in the languorous bureaucratised style of administration they had learnt while administering districts.

* They are not attuned to the modern industrial management or financial management disciplines and red tape takes a heavy toll in terms of coming to quick and critical decisions.

* Lack of accountability. In defence matters there could be no compromise as national security interests are involved.

The Arjun tank is a case in point. The Public accounts committee reports that the "delay in production of MBT Arjun has created such a precarious situation there is no option but to retain obsolete Vijayantha tanks." The Vijayantha tanks were in the process of being phased out. 

* Both MOD and MODP have not monitored the Arjun project in any purposeful manner. There have been serious delays in decision making and financial allocations. 

* The MODP has set up Monitoring Committees for various projects and it is not known how far the monitoring committee has discharged its duties efficiently in the case of the Arjun project.

* Much would depend upon the personality of the Defence Production Secretary as the post itself is not considered by administrators as a prized one. Added to this is the staffing of the MODP at the middle level. These are mostly filled by deputationists from diverse disciplines who have practically no exposure to modern management techniques and no idea of the cutting edge technologies generally required for Defence products.

* Though the Secretary of MODP is of the rank of a Secretary, in terms of administration the Defence Secretary assumes the role of a Principal Secretary with powers to override the MODP Secretary who at times may be senior to the Defence Secretary. 

Conclusion: 

It is not our intention here to make a fault finding paper. But there has to be accountability of various agencies in the matter of acquisition or research and production of weapons and weapons systems which have an impact on our national security. One typical example is the weapon locating radar for the Indian army. The third report of standing committee on Defence 1999-2000- demands for grants (2000-2001), Lok Sabha Secretariat, April 2000 states-

We quote -

"The Committee find on the basis of the facts brought before it that the Ministry of Defence has not shown any sense of seriousness in acquiring this item ( WLR). The enquiry in respect of this item started in 1989 and even after a decade the Indian Army has not been able to acquire it. Our adversary is in possession of the weapon locating radar and it was used by it during the Kargil conflict to destroy our gun positions". 

Who is to answer for the "seeming casualness shown by the Defence ministry?" Should not someone be made accountable?

Defence R&D projects to be viable should meet the requirements of end users in time, if not ahead of time to keep pace with advances in Defence technology. The DRDO should be geared up to execute these projects in a dynamic and integrated manner and there should be accountability at all levels. (Please see one other paper of ours- "The Warrior Scientists of India)

There is need to restructure the interrelationship of MOD, MODP, Ordnance Board and the DRDO. There is no doubt that there will be a tendency to buy equipment off the shelf from other countries as this helps officials to make frequent trips abroad. There is scope for corruption and though denied the role of dubious middlemen cannot be avoided. The DRDO route where viable should be opted, but the procedures will have to be streamlined.


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## acetophenol

Central Acquisition Radar, a state of the art planar array, S Band radar operating on the stacked beam principle. With a range of 180 km against fighter sized targets, it can track while scan 200 of them. Its systems are integrated on high mobility, locally built TATRA trucks for the Army and Air Force; however it is meant to be used by all three services. The Planar array was codeveloped by DRDO with a European firm with both the DRDO and the firm sharing design rights, whereas the rest of the hardware and signal processing were done locally. Initially developed for the long running Akash SAM system, seven were ordered by the Indian Air Force for their radar modernization program, and two of another variant were ordered by the Indian Navy for their P-28 Corvettes. The CAR has been a significant success for radar development in India, with its state of the art signal processing hardware.[36][37] The ROHINI is the IAF specific variant while the REVATHI is the Indian Navy specific variant. The ROHINI has a more advanced Indian developed antenna in terms of power handling and beamforming technology while the IREVATH adds two axis stabilisation for operation in naval conditions, as well as extra naval modes.

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## acetophenol

BEL Battle Field Surveillance Radar

The PJT-531 Battle Field Surveillance Radar- Short Range (BFSR-SR) is a man portable 2D short range Battle Field and Perimeter Surveillance Radar developed by the Indian Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO). The BFSR has been designed by DRDO's Bangalore-based laboratory, the Electronics and Radar Development Establishment (LRDE) and is being manufactured by Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL).[1]
BFSR has found use in the Indian border areas, especially along the Line of Control (LoC) in Jammu and Kashmir to prevent infiltration. Over 1100 units are in use by the Indian Army. Foreign Countries have also placed orders for the BFSR.[2]
Over 1,400 BFSRs are now being used by the Army against moving surface targets. A BFSR radar that offers foliage penetration is under development.[3]






Operators

India - Indian Army (1176 units).
- Border Security Force (BSF)[17][18]
Indonesia (~100 units)[20]
Sudan (10 units)[21]
Mozambique Bought for trials

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## Bossman

DRDO to preserve the ice Penis of Lord Shiva:

Srinagar: The two-month-long incident-free Amarnath yatra concluded today as a record five lakh pilgrims paid obeisance at the cave shrine this year. 

This is for the third consecutive year that the annual Amarnath pilgrimage has come to an end without any incident of violence. 

More than 5000 pilgrims led by Mahant Deepender Giri of Dashnami Akhara had a darshan of the ice lingam (phallic symbol) or Penis of Lord Shiva at the holy cave shrine of Amarnath this morning. 

Hundreds of sadhus arrived here early morning along with the Chhari Mubarak (holy mace of Lord Shiva) to offer special prayers on Shravan-Purnima today, which is also the Raksha Bandhan day. 

Jammu and Kashmir Governor Lt Gen (Retd) S K Sinha, who is also Chairman of the Shri Amarnathji Shrine Board (SASB), participated in the Antim Prarthana (last prayers). He was joined by thousands of devotees. 

After special pujan at the holy cave shrine, the Chhari Mubarak left for Dashnami Akhara in Srinagar from where it had started for the Amarnath cave on August 15 via the traditional yatra route of Pahalgam. 

This marked the culmination of the two-month-long Amarnath yatra. 

More than five lakh pilgrims from all over the country and abroad paid obeisance at the holy cave shrine of Amarnath this year through Baltal and traditional Pahalgam routes since the commencement of the annual pilgrimage on June 21. 

About 60 pilgrims, including 11 women, have died of cardiac arrest or from accidents during the yatra. 

Thousands of people lined up everyday to have a darshan of the ice lingam (phallic symbol) or Penis of Lord Shiva at the holy cave shrine of Amarnath. 

However, the icy Shiva lingam or Penis completely melted on August 2, much to the disappointment of devotees thronging the holy cave shrine from all over the country. 

Rise in temperature due to rush of pilgrims, use of cameras, burning of incense and other human interferences in the cave are responsible for lingams premature melting. 

The lingam is formed naturally with an ice stalagmite, which waxes and wanes with the moon. 

The holy cave of Amarnath, where the lingam is formed is situated in a narrow gorge at the far end of the Lidder valley at an altitude of 3,888 metres and the temperature is always at sub-zero level. 

The Shri Amarnathji Shrine Board (SASB) had last year proposed to create a scientific mechanism for the longevity of the ice lingam at the cave shrine. 

It had also approached the Defence and Research Development Authority (DRDO) to send a team to preserve the ice lingam and prevent its premature melting. 

The duration of the yatra had become a bone of contention between Gen Sinha and Chief Minister. 

The controversy, which dragged on for months, was finally settled after the both Gen Sinha and Chief Minister agreed to start the two-month-long yatra from June 21 via Baltal. 

The Governor was advocating a two month-long pilgrimage every year for greater satisfaction of yatris and to help give boost to the local economy. 

On the other hand, the Chief Minister had stressed the need for limiting the duration of the yatra to one month only due to security concerns. (UNI)


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## acetophenol

Super Vision-2000, an airborne 3D naval surveillance radar, meant for helicopters and light transport aircraft. The SV-2000 is a lightweight, yet high performance, slotted array radar operating in the X Band. It can detect sea-surface targets such as a periscope or a vessel, against heavy clutter, and can also be used for navigation, weather mapping and beacon detection. The radar can detect a large vessel at over 100 nautical miles (370 km)*.It is currently under modification to be fitted to the Advanced Light Helicopter, and the Navy's Do-228's. Variants can be fitted to the Navy's Ka-25's as well.*The radar has been inducted by the Indian Navy and a more advanced variant of the Super Vision, known as the XV-2004 is now in production. The XV-2004 is also operational, and features an ISAR, SAR Capability.






---------- Post added at 09:53 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:53 AM ----------

Long Range Tracking Radar: The LRTR a 3D AESA was developed with assistance from Elta of Israel, and is similar to Elta's proven GreenPine long range Active Array radar. The DRDO developed the signal processing and software for tracking high speed ballistic missile targets as well as introduced more ruggedization. The radar uses mostly Indian designed and manufactured components such as its critical high power, L Band Transmit-Receive modules plus the other enabling technologies necessary for active phased array radars.The LRTR can track 200 targets and had a range of above 500 km and can detect Intermediate Range Ballistic Missiles, and that India now had the capability to manufacture these radars on its own.The LRTR would be amongst the key elements of the Indian ABM system; DRDO would provide the technology to private and public manufacturers to make these high power systems.

---------- Post added at 09:54 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:53 AM ----------

3D Multi Function Control Radar: A substantial project by itself, the MFCR was developed as part of the Indian anti-ballistic missile program in cooperation with THALES of France. The MFCR is an active phased array radar and complements the Long Range Tracking Radar, for intercepting ballistic missiles. The MFCR will also serve as the fire control radar for the AAD second tier missile system of the ABM program. The AAD has a supplementary role against aircraft as well, and is to engage missiles and aircraft up to an altitude of 30 km. The MFCR fills out the final part of the DRDO's radar development spectrum, and allows India to manufacture long range 3D radars that can act as the nodes of an Air Defence Ground Environment system. As with the LRTR, the MFCR was used successfully in BMD interception effort.
2D Low Level Lightweight Radar (LLLR) for the Army, which require many of these units for gapfilling in mountainous terrain. The Indian Air Force will also acquire the same for key airbases. The LLLR is a 2D radar with a range of 40 km against a 2Sq Mtr target, intended as a gapfiller to plug detection gaps versus low level aircraft in an integrated Air Defence Ground network. The LLLR makes use of Indra-2 technology, namely a similar antenna array, but has roughly half the range and is much smaller and a far more portable unit. The LLLR can track while scan 100 targets and provide details about their speed, azimuth and range to the operator. The LLLR makes use of the BFSR-SR experience and many of the subsystem providers are the same. Multiple LLLRs can be networked together. The LLLR is meant to detect low level intruders, and will alert Army Air Defence fire control units to cue their weapon systems.[42] A 3D LLLR was also revealed in 2008, with the designation "Aslesha".
3D Short Range Radar for the Indian Air Force - ASLESHA: The ASLESHA radars have a range of approximately 50 km against small fighter-sized targets and will be able to determine their range, speed, azimuth and height. This radar will enable the Indian Air Force Air Defence units to accurately track low level intruders. The radar is a semi-active phased array with a 1 meter square aperture. The DRDO was in discussions with the Indian Navy to mount these systems on small ships.
Multi-mode radar,a 3D radar is a HAL project of which DRDO's LRDE is a subsystem provider, this project to develop an advanced, lightweight Multimode fire control radar for the LCA Tejas fighter, has faced stiff challenges and been struck by delay. It has now been completed with Elta's (Israel) assistance. The multimode radar is a greater than 100 km range (detection of a small fighter target), 10 target track, two target engage, lightweight system. It has been revealed that an all new combined signal and data processor had been developed, replacing the original separate units. The new unit is much more powerful and makes use of contemporary ADSP processors. The other radar critical hardware has also been developed and validated, however work remains on the software front. The software for the air to air mode has been developed considerably (including search and track while scan in both look up and look down modes) but air to ground modes are being still worked upon. The radar development was shown to be considerably more mature than previously thought. At Aero India 2009, it was revealed that the 3D MMR project has been superseded by the new 3D AESA FCR project led by LRDE. The MMR has been completed with Elta Israel's assistance and now involved Elta EL/M-2032 technology for Air to Ground mapping and targeting. This "hybrid" MMR has been trialled, validated and will be supplied for the initial LCA Tejas fighters of which 2 Squadrons have been ordered.
DRDO has indigenised components and improved subsystems of various other license produced radars manufactured at BEL, India, with the help of BEL scientists and other researchers. These improvements include new radar data processors for license produced Signaal radars as well as local radar assemblies replacing the earlier imported ones. Several of these items have better performance than the original systems that they replaced.

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## Bossman

Pakistan's best friend = Indian domestic defence industry


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## desiman

why is this Bossman trolling on this thread ? really Pakistanis need to find something else to do than indulging in India bashing as always, we can show them their reality as well.


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## desiman

Bossman said:


> Be proud on Bharat Rat$hit or similar forums, don't waste bandwidth of a Pakistani forum.


 
you own this place ? Please cut this crap if you dont.

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## Paan Singh

Bossman said:


> Pakistan's best friend = Indian domestic defence industry


 
it always helped you.... like in past..it will continue to help u..

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## acetophenol

The BEL Weapon Locating Radar (WLR) is a mobile artillery locating Phased array radar developed by India. This counter-battery radar is designed to detect and track incoming artillery and rocket fire to determine the point of origin for Counter-battery fire.
The WLR has been jointly developed by DRDO's Bangalore based laboratory, LRDE and the Government owned Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL). The sub-systems have been fabricated by BEL based on the DRDO designs and delivered to LRDE for integration


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## acetophenol

DRDO Daksh


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## Bossman

Home Minister P. Chidambaram has mooted the creation of a centralised procurement board for buying small arms for the paramilitary forces. A miffed Chidambaram is understood to have suggested this after reports of deviations from tender norms surfaced in acquisitions of firearms by two paramilitary forces. 
In March, the Border Security Force (BSF) signed a contract with Italian gun maker Beretta for buying 68,000 submachine guns worth over Rs 400 crore. The size of the deal raised eyebrows because few had heard of the Beretta weapon. Late last year, its sister service, the Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF), signed an order for the purchase of 12,000 X-95 Tavor carbines from Israel costing over Rs 1 lakh apiece. This is just the tip of the iceberg. 

Generous modernisation budgets after the 26/11 Mumbai terror attacks mean that India's military, paramilitary and police personnel will import small arms worth over $3 billion (Rs 13,500 crore). Most of these imports of weapons performing similar security roles will be from different global arms manufacturers with nothing in common in terms of ammunition, spares and training. "In a few years, India is going to resemble a salad bowl of assorted weaponry, says a senior police official. The Mumbai police's Force One commandos, raised after the 26/11, have four different types of weapons-Colt M-4 carbines from the US, Brugger and Thomet submachine guns from Switzerland, MP-5 submachine guns from Germany and AK-47 variants from eastern Europe. 

The force is already believed to have a problem importing ammunition for all these weapons, one of the dangers of such a diverse menagerie. "The US army is talking about inter-operability (similar weapons, ammunition) of weapons across continents, we are unable to achieve inter-operability even between our security forces," says Lieutenant General (retd) P.C. Katoch.


Click here to EnlargeThe Indian Army has begun looking for new carbines (a shorter version of an assault rifle) and assault rifles to replace its obsolete weaponry. A lip-smacking treat of over $2 billion (Rs 9,000 crore) for foreign arms companies eyeing a piece of the action awaits.

In India, little research goes into buying such weapons. There are virtually no experts who can study or evaluate small arms. The sole evaluating agency is the army's School of Infantry in Mhow, Madhya Pradesh, which the army uses for its own requirements. Army officials call for an apex government body comprising users and technical experts from various services. "They should evaluate weapons and recommend induction for all security forces," says an army officer. This is along the lines of what the home minister has suggested for the paramilitary forces.

"Despite fighting insurgency for over two decades, the army has not conducted a comprehensive analysis of firefights with militants or any research into the type of weapons or bullets required," admits a senior army official. Most reports filed by individual field officers after encounters disappear into military-bureaucratic black holes in Delhi. A few years ago, an officer questioned the lethality of the new special forces' Tavor assault rifles bought from Israel. A group of militants ambushed by the army got away with injuries. The report was quietly buried. Importing weapons means the nation is at the mercy of foreign vendors for spares and ammunition. Austria and Germany have refused to let their firms supply weapons to Indian states like Chhattisgarh and Maharashtra citing human rights violations.

The larger problem, say officials, is the utter lack of communication between the designer, manufacturer and user. The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), the OFB and the army function in silos, not talking to each other. Faulty ammunition made by the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) is another major cause of weapons malfunctioning in combat, but again, little thought is paid to improving quality. The DRDO's new MSMC compact carbine has the ability to address requirements of the army, police and paramilitary forces but is wrestling with weight and performance issues.

Army officials say at 4 kg, the weapon is too heavy; the DRDO says it will improve subsequent variants. The weapon undergoes final trials this month but is several years away from mass production. Meanwhile the Home Ministry is importing thousands of AK-47 variants from Bulgarian arms manufacturer Arsenal Inc. A home ministry official says the Bulgarian-made AK costs just Rs 22,000, Rs 5000 less than the indigenous INSAS rifle. The irony is hard to miss. A nation self-sufficient in making ballistic missiles imports assault rifles from eastern Europe.

DRDO Delays


Defence minister A K Antony checks out an MSMCThis month, the Army is to conduct final trials of the DRDO's Modern Submachine Carbine (MSMC). 

In development for close on to a decade, it struggled with weight and performance issues. The weight has now dropped to an acceptable 3.1kg and a reliability of 99.4 per cent (3 stoppages for every 1,000 rounds fired) but the Army wants it to reach 99.7 per cent. The Army will buy 2.18 lakh of the carbines for Rs 2,183 crore if the MSMC passes the test. 

The police and paramilitary are set to follow. The MSMC could potentially end the small arms confusion and put a stop to imports. The onus now lies with the DRDO to prove it can deliver.



Related link: http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/st.../1/137309.html

---------- Post added at 10:16 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:16 AM ----------

A flying lemon
May 26, 2011 
By Bharat Karnad 

Bharat Karnad is professor at the Centre for Policy Research New Delhi.


The anger in Washington policy circles when the US fighter planes &#8212; the Lockheed-Martin F-16IN and the Boeing F-18 Super Hornet &#8212; did not make it to the Indian Air Force&#8217;s Medium-range Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) shortlist, was a thing to behold. It was as if an ungrateful India had reneged on a done aircraft deal &#8212; just rewards for easing India&#8217;s entry on to the verandah of the five-country nuclear weapons club.

The American incomprehension with the Indian decision is itself incomprehensible. Lockheed and Boeing actually believed they would win with platforms of late 1960s vintage jazzed up with a downgraded Raytheon APG-79 (or even a de-rated &#8220;81&#8221 version of the Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) look-down, ground-mapping, radar. The Indian Air Force is not the most advanced but its leadership, despite its flaws, knows when it is being palmed off with yesterday&#8217;s goods. Had Washington offered the Joint Strike Fighter, the F-35 Lightning II, the IAF would have jumped at it and the decision would have been hurrahed along by the Prime Minister, Dr Manmohan Singh. In the event, the French Rafale and the EADS (European Aeronautic Defence and Space) Company&#8217;s Typhoon Eurofighter progressed even as Lockheed and Boeing were sought to be pacified with two transport aircraft deals &#8212; the one for the C-130J making sense, the other for the C-17 not. Russia, likewise, was mollified with collaboration on the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA). To my consternated friends in Washington who sought an explanation, I offered an analogy. Some two decades back, the Daimler-Benz car company entered the Indian market with older Mercedes models, convinced the cash-rich yokels would splash good money for anything with the three-cornered star on the bonnet. The old cars, remained unsold and the investment in production jigs and tools in their factory in Pune went waste. The Germans quickly corrected course, offering the newest Mercedes models, available in Dusseldorf, in Delhi.

The sale of Rafale or Eurofighter to India is a lifeline to both the Dassault Company and the French aviation sector generally and the four-country consortium producing, so far unviably, the latter aircraft that an expert acquaintance dismissed as something &#8220;Germany doesn&#8217;t want, Britain can&#8217;t afford, and Spain and Italy neither want nor can afford!&#8221; But, leverage-wise, it affords India traction with four European countries instead of just France in case Rafale is taken. But is either of these aircraft genuinely multi-role?

Dr Carlo Kopp, an internationally renowned combat aviation specialist, deems the Typhoon, a non-stealthy, short-range (300 nautical miles) air defence/air dominance fighter optimised for transonic manoeuvres, more a &#8220;lemon&#8221; than a &#8220;demon&#8221;. Italian Air Force Chief Gen. Vincenzo Camporini, moreover, declared in 2008 that this plane was incapable of an &#8220;attack role in an economically sustainable manner&#8221;, in part because EADS has no AESA radar. It hopes to develop one with the infusion of Indian monies if Typhoon is selected. Realistically, India will not get the strike variant until well into the 2020s as the Royal Air Force and the German Luftwaffe, for starters, will have the first lien on it. In short, for over a third of its lifetime, the IAF will have to make do with the more limited air defence version which, in effect, is an avionics-wise souped-up, ergonomically improved, MiG-21! Moreover, to expect timely, coordinated, supply of spares and service support from 20-odd countries (including Croatia!) roped into the Eurofighter programme will be a compounded logistics and maintenance nightmare.

Rafale is a smaller, semi-stealth plane with slightly better un-refuelled range than the Typhoon but, equipped with the RBE-22A AESA radar, can undertake ground attack, including nuclear weapon delivery. Critically, it has finessed the algorithm (patented, incidentally, by an Indian scientist) for more effective fusion of data from numerous on-board and external sensors (such as satellite) better than the Eurofighter. Except, as late as 2009, Rafale was ruled operationally inadequate perhaps because it is less agile in &#8220;dogfighting&#8221; &#8212; a role the IAF brass remains enamoured with long after advanced tactical missiles have made close-quarter aerial battle history. Rafale and Typhoon nevertheless cost a bomb, with the MMRCA eventually coming in at around $20 billion.

The F-16 was rejected because, in part, the Pakistan Air Force flies it. By this reckoning, Pakistan may also access Typhoon and Rafale. EADS is trying desperately to sell the Typhoon to Turkey. If it succeeds, PAF will end up familiarising itself with it, if not actually benefiting from surreptitious transfer of its technologies. Trying to ramp up its defence sales, France has explored the sale of Rafale to Pakistan as has Russia the MiG-35 in order to compete with China for influence in Islamabad (which is not barred by any provision in the FGFA deal with India).

The MMRCA is a rubbish acquisition. The defence ministry followed up the questionable decision with a singular display of lack of negotiating savvy. With the MiG-35 option on the table, India could have played the Europeans off against the Russians to secure the best terms, even if ultimately for Rafale/Typhoon. Instead, there&#8217;s the appalling record of defence ministry officials and service officers repeatedly muffing deals, worse, acting as patsies for, or playing footsy with, the supplier states, resulting in treasury-emptying contracts that have fetched the country little in return. 

Learning from the past, defence minister A.K. Antony had better instruct his negotiators to insist on only phased payments linked to time-bound delivery of aircraft and full transfer of technology (including source codes and flight control laws for all aspects of the aircraft), and on deterrent penalties that automatically kick in at the slightest infringement or violation of clauses deliberately tilted to favour India. Considering Delhi &#8212; prior to signing the deal &#8212; is in a position to arm-twist almost anything out of the supplier firms using the threat of walking out on the deal, the litmus test of a &#8220;successful&#8221; MMRCA transaction will be whether, by way of offsets, and notwithstanding the initial problems with absorbing advanced technology, the Indian defence industry has gained top-edge technological-industrial competence across the broad combat aviation front (rather than rights to mere licenced manufacture as in past deals). 



Related link: http://www.deccanchronicle.com/edito...ying-lemon-200


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## acetophenol

mahendra stryker:
armed with milan atgm,flame thrower etc:


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## Bossman

India's missiles - With a little help from our friends:

By Gary Milhollin 
Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists - November 1989, pp. 31-35 

Last May 22, India became the first country to test a strategic missile derived from a civilian space program. The missile's first-stage rocket motor, heat shield, and guidance system all came from India's space effort -- generously launched and sustained by foreign help. 

Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi claimed that the missile, called "Agni" (fire), is "an R&D vehicle, not a weapons system." Then he qualified the assertion. "Agni is not a nuclear weapons system," he said. "What Agni does is to afford us the option of developing the ability to deliver non-nuclear weapons with high precision at long ranges." 

In the May test, the missile reportedly flew 625 miles. But it is designed to carry a one-ton payload 1,500 miles, far enough to hit cities in southern China. Carrying a half-ton atomic bomb, the Agni would be able to fly about 2,200 miles, far enough to hit Beijing. 

Whether Agni eventually carries nuclear or conventional weapons, the missile should destroy any illusions about sharing technology in the interest of peaceful uses of outer space. The story of the Agni's development shows how difficult it is to separate civilian and military uses of technology, and just how futile may be the recent, belated attempts to control the proliferation of military missile technology. A control regime established by seven Western nations in 1987 seeks to prevent precisely this sort of development. [See the June 1988 Bulletin.] Yet the regime has no provisions for enforcement, and the Indian program continued full speed ahead, with some foreign - particularly West German - cooperation, after the regime was adopted. 

Lessons in America: 

Agni's foreign ancestry dates from the 1960s. In November 1963, the United States began India's space program by launching a U.S. sounding rocket from Indian soil. (Sounding rockets fly straight up into the atmosphere to conduct scientific experiments. They are too small to launch satellites.) The United States was followed by others. Between 1963 and 1975, more than 350 U.S., French, Soviet, and British sounding rockets were launched from India's Thumba Range,[1] which the United States helped design. Thumba's first group of Indian engineers had learned rocket launching and range operation in the United States. 

Among them was the Agni's chief designer, A. J. P. Abdul Kalam. In 1963-64, he spent four months in training in the United States. He visited NASA's Langley Research Center in Virginia, where the U.S. Scout rocket was conceived, and the Wallops Island Flight Center on the Virginia coast, where the Scout was being flown. The Scout was a low-cost, reliable satellite launcher that NASA had developed for orbiting small payloads. 

Soon afterward, in 1965, the Indian government asked NASA how much it would cost and how long it would take to develop an Indian version of the Scout, and whether the United States would help. NASA replied that the Scout was "available . . . for purchase . . . in connection with scientific research," but warned that "transfer of this technology . . . would be a matter for determination by the Department of State under Munitions Control."[2] NASA nevertheless sent India technical reports on the Scout's design, which was unclassified. India's request should have raised some eyebrows: it came from Homi Bhabha, head of the Indian Atomic Energy Commission. 

But Kalam had the information he needed. He returned to India and built the SLV-3 (Space Launch Vehicle), India's first satellite launcher. Its design is virtually identical to the Scout's. Both rockets are 23 meters long, use four similar solid-fuel stages and "open loop" guidance, and lift a 40-kilogram payload into low earth orbit. The SLV's 30-foot first stage would later become the first stage of the Agni. 

NASA officials say U.S. aid to India in rocketry was limited to the program in the 1960s. In 1988, however, the United States agreed to supply an advanced ring laser gyroscope to help guide a new Indian fighter plane.[3] It is not clear what will prevent India from using it to guide missiles. The highly accurate device is essentially solid state, making it easy to adapt to the demands of missile acceleration. 

French lessons: liquid fuel 

France also launched sounding rockets from India, and in the late 1960s allowed India to begin building "Centaure" sounding rockets under license from Sud Aviation. But France's main contribution has been in the field of liquid propulsion. Under a license from France's Societe Europeene de Propulsion (SEP), India is building its own version of the Viking high-thrust liquid rocket motor, used on the European Space Agency's Ariane satellite launcher.[4] Indian engineers helped develop the Viking in the mid-1970s, then began a program of their own. India has now built an experimental model of the Viking engine, called the Vikas. 

The training in liquid propulsion seems to have paid off. Just over a year before testing the Agni, Kalam tested a smaller predecessor, the "Prithvi" (earth), which uses a liquid-propelled motor to carry a one-ton payload 150 miles. It resembles the widely sold Soviet Scud-B. Indian sources say that the Agni's second stage is a shortened version of the Prithvi.[5]

A German intensive tutorial: 

The aid of the United States and France, however, was quickly dwarfed by West German help in the 1970s and 1980s. Germany gave India help in three indispensable missile technologies: guidance, rocket testing, and the use of composite materials. All were supposed to be for the space program, but all were equally useful for military missiles. 

The German government's aerospace agency DLR (Deutsche Forschungsanstalt fur Luftfahrt und Raumfahrt e.V.) began tutoring India in rocket guidance in 1976.[6] The first step was to put a German interferometer on an Indian sounding rocket. An interferometer works by using antennas placed at different locations on the rocket to measure the phase of a radio signal received from the ground. The phase difference among the antennas reveals their relative positions on the rocket and thus the rocket's attitude, which can be monitored and corrected from the ground. The first launch of an Indian rocket with a German interferometer was in 1978. By 1981 the project had been expanded to include an on-board DLR microprocessor. In April 1982, India tested its own version of the same interferometer. 

The next step was to make a navigation system that did not depend on signals from the ground, one that could guide a payload through space by determining its position and speed at any moment. The "autonomous payload control system," which India proposed in July 1981, would provide "full autonomous navigation capability to spaceborne sensors," determining "position, velocity, attitude, and precision time in a real-time mode." India would supply the rockets and satellites; Germany would provide the brains of the guidance system. The key component would be an on-board computer, using a microprocessor based on the Motorola family M 68000, and the software to run it. 

It must be noted that an inertial navigation system that can guide satellites can also guide warheads. The United States used NASA's experience in guiding the Titan II transtage, a "bus" designed for multiple satellite launchings, to develop a bus that would accurately deliver small nuclear warheads.[7]

The German-Indian plan was carried out. By January 1982, the two countries had agreed on a series of joint projects for the program. But at the same time, India announced that it was designing a new navigation system for its own space rockets: it would replace the "open loop" system used on its first launcher, the SLV-3, with a "closed loop" system for its Advanced Space Launch Vehicle and its Polar Space Launch Vehicle. An open loop system can only correct the rocket's attitude, not deviations from the planned flight path. A closed loop system can correct both, because it senses and determines the rocket's position in space. It amounts to an autonomous navigation system. 

So while India's program with Germany, called APC-Rex for Autonomous Payload Control Rocket Experiment, was developing autonomous navigation for a satellite, India would develop autonomous navigation for its own rockets. India would need a brain for its space rockets' new closed loop system, which it would provide by developing the "Mark-II" onboard processor - "based on [the] Motorola 6800 microprocessor with 16-bit word length" - the same as that used in the German program. (Although Indian reports repeatedly refer to the Motorola "6800," according to Motorola the 16-bit chip is the M 68000.) The timing of subsequent events showed continued parallel developments in the two programs. 

The German aid in guidance is apparently continuing, despite the Agni launch. In May 1989, a DLR official said that "the APC-Rex program has not yet been concluded, but it will come to an end in 1989."[8] West Germany was one of the seven countries that adopted the Missile Technology Control Regime in 1987, an agreement not to export items useful in making long-range missiles. That agreement barred the export of technology capable of real-time processing of navigation data, unless specific assurances could be given that the technology would not be used for, or transferred to, missile programs. If, as the evidence suggests, technology from APC-Rex has been used in India's rocket and missile programs, Germany may have violated the agreement. 

India has not described the Agni guidance system. But when the missile was assembled in 1988, Indian rocket scientists had studied and developed only one brain for rocket guidance: the German system based on the Motorola microprocessor and its software. Over a decade, Germany's guidance tutorial helped India build and test a navigation package based on that system. Did that system go into the Agni, or did India invent from scratch some other system, not mentioned in any Indian space program report? If the latter, did the Indian rocket scientists block from their minds everything they had learned from the Germans? The evidence is strong that the Agni owes its brain to German engineering. 

Interchangeable parts: 

The Indian space program first mentions the Agni in its 1982-83 annual report as a booster rocket for the Polar Space Launch Vehicle: six identical Agni boosters will lift the missile's first stage. The boosters, in turn, are adaptations of the first stage of the SLV-3.[9] Indeed, the SLV-3 is the only large booster motor that India has: it carries nine tons of solid propellant, as does the Agni first stage; no other Indian booster carries anything close to that amount. India has used the same booster to lift the Advanced Space Launch Vehicle.[10] After the Agni launch a number of sources, Indian as well as foreign, reported that the Agni first stage was identical to the SLV-3 first stage. Thus, the main rocket for India's missile program has come from India's space program. 

This same rocket, in turn, owes much to German help. Wind tunnels are essential to the design of any rocket. In 1974-75, DLR tested a model of the first stage of the SLV-3 in its wind tunnel at Cologne-Portz. DLR also helped India build rocket test facilities, furnishing a complete facility design and training Indian engineers in high-altitude testing. India has said it will use this technology to test the liquid-fueled upper stage of the Polar Space Launch Vehicle, and it may already have done so. India may also have used it to test the Agni's liquid-fueled second stage, which must have been tested somewhere. 

In June 1988, two Egyptian military officers were indicted for trying to smuggle carbon fiber composites out of the United States. Export of the composites was strictly controlled: the strong, lightweight, heat-resistant materials were being used for the nozzles and the nosecone of the MX, Trident, and Minuteman nuclear missiles. 

But DAR began giving Indian scientists on-the-job training in composites at Stuttgart and Braunschweig in the mid-1970s. Subjects ranged from "glass fibre reinforced plastics via impregnated materials" to "carbon fibre reinforced composites." The Indians learned "composition, manufacturing processes, quality control, and error detection." 

The German training allowed India to make rocket nozzles and nosecones of its own, which could be for either missiles or space launchers. To help the Indians use the composites, DAR supplied the documentation for a precision filament-winding machine, which India built and commissioned in 1985-86. 

After the Agni test, Prime Minister Gandhi affirmed that one of the goals was to test "atmospheric reentry." Lower-ranking officials were more specific. They said that the goal was to test a "domestically developed heat shield."[11]

Target: China 

No country, including India, has ever spent money on long-range rockets simply to explore space. The "satellites" launched by the SLV-3 were little more than flight monitors, used to transmit data on rocket performance, which was India's true interest. To launch real satellites, India could and did hire other providers of that service. The Soviets launched India's first two satellites; France's Ariane rocket and the U.S. space shuttle have launched others. 

Nor has any country developed long-range missiles simply to deliver conventional bombs. The large cost of missile development is only justified by the ability to inflict strategic blows, which conventional warheads cannot do. 

The Agni, therefore, can only be interpreted as a step toward a long-range nuclear strike force. As India progresses in guidance, the Agni's range should extend gradually to most targets in China. 

India apparently has the material and skill to mass produce the Agni and arm it with nuclear warheads. The result will be a new nuclear equation in Asia. Across a common border, nuclear-armed rivals will confront each other, each with missiles, one or both vulnerable to a first strike from the other. 

When India exploded an atomic bomb in 1974, the world was shocked. India had taken a Canadian reactor and U.S. heavy water both imported under guarantees of peaceful use and used them openly to make plutonium for a nuclear blast. That blast destroyed illusions about the "peaceful atom" and prompted changes in nuclear export policy. It is not surprising that India has again taken advantage of civilian imports and technology to further what appears to be a nuclear weapons program. What is surprising is that, given India's record, it was so easy. 

How a Satellite Guidance System gets into a missile: 

(Excerpts from program reports) 

1982 - 83 

APC-Rex (German-Indian missile program satellite guidance program): received Motorola 68000 microprocessor 

Indian space and missile program: "An engineering model of the Mark-ll based on the Motorola 6800 [sic] has been integrated and exhaustive tests are being carried out." 

1983 - 84 

APC-Rex (German-Indian missile program satellite guidance program): "Development of an on-board computer for autonomous payload control is in progress." 

Indian space and missile program: "Design review was conducted on inertial navigation systems with the participation of international experts." 

1984 - 85 

APC-Rex (German-Indian missile program satellite guidance program): "Design of the on-board [guidance] packages was completed." 

Indian space and missile program: "Design of on-board processors for SLV based on 16-bit microprocessors has been completed." 

1986 - 87 

APC-Rex (German-Indian missile program satellite guidance program): "Development and validation of hardware and software packages for APC-Rex are in their final stages." 

Indian space and missile program: "Breadboard models of on-board computers based on microprocessors have been realized." 


Sources: 

1. P.D. Bhavsar et al., "Indian Sounding Rocket Program," Proceedings of the 4th Sounding Rocket Technology Conference (Boston: American Institute for Aeronautics and Astronautics, June 23-26,1976), pp. 101-07. 

2. Letter from Arnold W. Frutkin, assistant administrator for international affairs, NASA, to Homi J. Bhabha, chairman, Indian Atomic Energy Commission, March 10, 1965. 

3. Steven R. Weisman, "U.S. Clears Vital Gyroscope for Indian Jet Fighter," New York Times, April 7, 1988, p. A12. 

4. David Velupillai, "ISRO, India's Ambitious Space Agency," Flight International (June 28, 1980), p. 1466. 

5. "India's Agni Success Poses New Problems," Defence Weekly (June 3,1989), p. 1052. 

6. Many of the following details of the German-Indian space program are found in the proceedings of a January 27, 1982, colloquium of the DAR (then called DFVLR) and the Indian Space Research Organization (ISRO) in Bangalore, India, "A Decade of Cooperation in the Field of Space Research and Technology," and in annual reports of the Indian government's Department of Space. 

7. Ted Greenwood, Qualitative Improvements in Offensive Strategic Arms: The Case of the MARV(Cambridge: Center for International Studies, Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Aug. 1973), p. 278. 

8. Letter from Dietmar Wurzel, head of DAR's Washington, D.C., office, to Gary Milhollin, May 1, 1989. 

9. "India The Way Forward," Spaceflight (Dec.1986), p. 434. 

10. "India Aims for Self-Sufficiency in Space," Flight International (June 14,1986), p. 45. 

11. Barbara Crossette, "India Reports Successful Test of Mid-Range Missile," New York Times, May 22, 1989, p. A9. 

WPoNAC

---------- Post added at 10:18 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:17 AM ----------

Friday, Apr 16, 2010

India's own cryogenic rocket launch fails

T.S. Subramanian

GSLV-D3 tumbles into the sea

SRIHARIKOTA: India's ambitious quest to achieve total independence in cryogenic technology for launching satellite launch vehicles suffered a setback on Thursday, with the indigenous cryogenic engine in a Geo-synchronous Satellite Launch Vehicle (GSLV-D3) failing to ignite and the vehicle tumbling into the sea.

The mission to put communication satellite GSAT-4 in orbit thus ended in failure. The vehicle, however, was not destroyed in mid-flight as its trajectory was in a safe corridor over the Bay of Bengal.

The cryogenic technology is crucial to put heavy satellites in geo-synchronous transfer orbit at an altitude of 36,000 km.

The Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) was keenly looking forward to this flight because this was the first time that it was flying a GSLV with its own cryogenic engine.

Gloom engulfed the Mission Control Centre at the Sriharikota spaceport as the mission's failure sank in.

ISRO had worked for more than 17 years to develop its own cryogenic engine.

The earlier five GSLV flights from 2001 to 2007 were powered by Russian cryogenic engines.

ISRO Chairman K. Radhakrishnan told reporters, We are not sure whether the cryogenic main engine did ignite. We have to confirm this after looking at the various parameters that were monitored during the flight. The vehicle was tumbling. It means it lost its control and altitude. Finally, it splashed into the sea. 


Related link: http://www.thehindu.com/2010/04/16/s...1660470100.htm


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## Bossman

India's Prithvi-II fails to take off
Published: September 25, 2010 


BALASORE (Online) &#8211; India&#8217;s indigenously developed nuclear-capable Prithvi-II ballistic missile failed to take off during a user trial from the Integrated Test Range at Chandipur off the Orissa coast on Friday apparently due to a technical problem, defence sources said. 
Though the ITR authorities were not immediately available for comment, defence sources said the sophisticated missile could not take off during the planned trial from the launch Complex-III of the test range due to some &#8220;technical snag.&#8221; &#8220;The failure to lift Prithvi-II was due to a snag either in the main missile or the sub-system, including the launcher,&#8221; they said, adding the test-fire was slated to be held as part of user&#8217;s trial by the armed forces. During today&#8217;s planned trial, a noise could be heard as smoke billowed from the launch site around the time of the blasting. 
The last four user&#8217;s trials of the surface-to-surface missile were successfully conducted during about one-year period, from the same site in the ITR. The last trial was conducted on June 18, this year. 
The test firing of the state-of-the-art missile, which has already been inducted into armed forces, was planned as users trial by the specially formed &#8220;Strategic Force Command&#8221; (SFC), the sources said.

http://www.nation.com.pk/pakistan-ne...ls-to-take-off

---------- Post added at 10:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:18 AM ----------

India&#8217;s test of Agni-II missile fails: sources
BHUBANESWAR - 10th December 2010 (9 hours ago)
By AFP

India carried out an unsuccessful maiden test Friday of an upgraded version of its nuclear-capable, medium-range Agni-II ballistic missile, defence sources said.

The surface-to-surface &#8220;Agni-II plus&#8221; was fired from a mobile rail launcher on Wheeler Island off the coast of the western state of Orissa, but dropped into the sea shortly into its planned flight, the sources said.

It was not immediately clear why the test had failed. The missile has two stages, both fuelled by solid propellants.

It has a normal range of 2,000-2,500 kilometers (1,250-1,500 miles) and India has already successfully tested an Agni-III variant with a reach of up to 3,000-3,500 kilometres.

The upgraded &#8220;Agni-II plus&#8221; has an improved navigation system and is aimed at bridging the gap between the two with a range of around 2,500-3,000 kilometres.

http://www.aaj.tv/2010/12/indias-tes...fails-sources/


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## Bossman

False claims on the BMD programme are detrimental to India&#8217;s security

By Pravin Sawhney

Tall claims and empty boasts seem to have become the hallmark of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO). The proclivity of the Director General, DRDO, Dr V.K. Saraswat and his team to exaggerate its achievements would be amusing to discerning people. 

Unfortunately, this amusement has grave national security implications and Dr Saraswat, a ballistic missile expert with the indigenous Prithvi ballistic missile being his crowning glory, should know this better than most. 

As the director general, DRDO, he is leading the nation&#8217;s home-grown Ballistic Missile Defence (BMD) programme. The claims made by him about the recently tested-fired Dhanush and Prithvi II ballistic missiles on March 11 and the BMD Endo-atmospheric interceptor test on March 6 are exaggerated beyond imagination. 

These should have been put into perspective by the Indian defence correspondents and experts, not only for domestic but international consumption as well, because the Pakistani establishment, while ignoring DRDO&#8217;s claims on Prithvi, utilises the boasts about the BMD to its strategic advantage.

Making use of Saraswat&#8217;s chest-thumping, Pakistan is going ahead full throttle to more than match India&#8217;s humble BMD technological achievements; if at all, the programme is decades away from fruition. According to US intelligence, while ahead of India in ballistic missiles capabilities since 2001, General Headquarters, Rawalpindi continues to increase its inventory of nuclear weapons&#8217; land vector by citing India&#8217;s BMD claims as a destabilising factor. 

This writer had first-hand experience of this a few months ago. During the alumni meet at the Cooperative Monitoring Centre (Sandia National Laboratory) at Albuquerque, US in October 2010, a former director of Pakistan&#8217;s Strategic Plans Division, Brigadier Feroz Khan argued that India&#8217;s growing BMD capability had forced Pakistan to build more ballistic missiles.

Given its unbridled inventory, it is a matter of time before the Pakistan Army will alter its war-fighting doctrine to align it with the Chinese People&#8217;s Liberation Army thinking. While supplementing air power, the difference between combat aircraft and ballistic missiles will narrow down to tighter control of the latter. 

This will upset the Indian Air Force combat numbers superiority over the Pakistan Air Force and force the Indian Army to review its operational level pro-active strategy, referred to as the Cold Start doctrine in the media, against the Pakistan Army. Given such implications, the defence minister needs to restrain Saraswat and the DRDO from making irresponsible statements. Apparently after the recent claims on the BMD project, defence minister A.K. Antony has expressed his displeasure to Saraswat.

Prithvi and Dhanush


A brief history and technological limitations of the indigenous Prithvi ballistic missile are in order. The development of surface-to-surface Prithvi ballistic missile was sanctioned by the government in 1983 under the Integrated Guided Missiles Development Programme. As Prithvi was an offshoot of ISRO&#8217;s civilian Space Launch Vehicle (SLV), its development commenced without the General Staff Qualitative Requirements (GSQR) &#8212; technical requirements given by the user, that is, defence services, to the research organisation &#8212; implying that the defence services were neither consulted nor were they interested (ballistic missiles were still unknown to them) in the programme. 

As happens with most indigenous programmes, Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi personally goaded the army in 1988 to accept Prithvi in order to encourage the indigenous product. Considering the Prime Minister had intervened regarding a weapon system, it was easy for the DRDO to arm-twist the other two services, the navy and the air force to seek the missile with a few minor and not design changes to suit its medium of operations.

---------- Post added at 10:20 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:19 AM ----------

AGNI-II fails to deliver desired results 

Agni-II, countrys nuclear counter strike capability ballistic missile has reportedly failed to deliver desired result. 

The trial was conducted from Wheeler Island, part of the integrated test range of Orissa coast on Tuesday at about 10 am. 

Reliable sources at the Wheelers Island said the countdown was normal, liftoff was smooth and then disaster struck as the 2000 kms plus range Agni-II missile instead of traveling on the pre-determined trajectory started wandering midway.

The missile deviated from its path after the first stage separation and was meandering at an angle of 180 degree midway. Though it was coordinated to cover a distance of nearly 2000 km, within just 127 seconds it covered 203 km before plunging into the sea, said the source.

The guidance system can correct the missiles midway path deviation if it behaves erratically at an angle of 40 to 60 degree but not beyond that, said a defence scientist. The disaster might have happened due to design and manufacturing faults, he added.

Similarly on July 9, 2006, the maiden test of Agni-III had failed to achieve the target as technical snags were reported during the separation of the first and the second stage.

Agni-II missile was first tested on April 11, 1999, and inducted in the Army in 2004. The trial was conducted by the Army while scientists from DRDO provided the necessary logistical support. The unfortunate development will have a telling effect on the morale of the Army, said analysts.

Several attempts to contact Agni project director, Avinash Chander and ITR director, S P Dash turned futile. There was no official word even from DRDO on the test.

We are still analyzing the statistics about the flight performance and data from the launch pad and the three tracking stations are being thoroughtly examined, said a scientist, who is part of the missile programme. Several defence analysts have criticized the DRDO for the failure.

&#8220;Agni project is an established project. In the deployment stage if the missile behaves like this, can we afford to hold the country to ransom security-wise. There should be some sort of accountability from scientists doing the research and development of the DRDO,&#8221; said an analyst.


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## Bossman

India's Strategic Planners Aren't Thinking

By Fareed Zakaria, CNN

A number of you have asked me on Facebook and Twitter what I think of India&#8217;s recent decision not to buy $10 billion worth of American warplanes.

I think it was a big mistake on India&#8217;s part. Despite what India says, defense purchases like this are about more than just planes. The Indian press has portrayed the country&#8217;s decision to buy European jets instead as a very clever strategy of hedging its bets. That&#8217;s nonsense.

First of all, the idea that India&#8217;s foreign policy elite are able to think in a strategic and wise way on behalf of the country is highly questionable. These are the people who allied India steadfastly with the Soviet Union and Communist China up until the point that Chairman Mao decided to invade India.

Then, they doubled down on the bet and backed the Soviet Union, including endorsing the invasions of Cambodia and then Afghanistan. They stood with the Soviet Union right up to the point that the Soviet Union collapsed and it became clear that New Delhi had gotten behind the wrong side in the Cold War.

This same establishment is now telling us how clever they are being.

The fundamental fact is India needs the United States more than the United States needs India. The U.S. economy is $15 trillion; I think it will survive the loss of this $10 billion deal!

For the Indians, they lost a lot of goodwill at a crucial time. The Americans felt they had bent over backwards to do favors for India. The U.S. was the indispensable force in ending India&#8217;s nuclear apartheid, for example. Then India blew an opportunity to cement that positive relationship.

India needs America. First of all, this is because India&#8217;s immediate security is entirely dependent on maintaining a stable relationship with Pakistan. India is unable to forge a stable relationship itself for all kinds of historical reasons. The Pakistan-Indian relationship is just so fraught.

America is a very useful interlocutor because India&#8217;s and America&#8217;s interests in a place like Afghanistan are identical: stability and the absence of terror groups. India could gain a very powerful ally in America who also has enormous influence over Pakistan.

Secondly, the rise of China is the big strategic problem for India over the next 25 years and once again the single most important outside power in the context of the rise of China is the United States. This is true from an economic, political and military point of view.

So looking at that strategic landscape, you have to ask yourself, &#8220;What are Indian strategic planners thinking?&#8221; My guess is they&#8217;re not thinking. This is the scratching of old, non-aligned itches. Left wing ideology, which has been beaten back and exposed as bankrupt in the economic realm, has found some place in the political realm.

Maybe it will take 20 years, but just as surely as India&#8217;s very clever strategy during the Cold War proved to be a profound mistake, people will look back on what India is doing right now and say that it had a chance to build an extraordinary and close relationship with the United States and it blew it.

I hope that&#8217;s not what happens but the Indians certainly seem on course to do just that.

Those are my thoughts. I invite you to share yours below, and to follow me on Facebook and Twitter.

---------- Post added at 10:22 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:22 AM ----------

Border Security Force Criticizes Dhruv Helicopter


(Source: Forecast International; issued May 24, 2011)



NEW DELHI --- The Indian Border Security Force (BSF) has requested that the government replace its indigenous Dhruv helicopters, saying they did not fulfill their operational requirement. 

A BSF letter to the government stated that "the Advanced Light Helicopters - Dhruv - are not helpful in our operations like casualty evacuation and troop reinforcements. They are useless for us. Most of the times these helicopters are under servicing and there are issues about [their] capabilities to fly beyond a certain height." 

The BSF air fleet currently has six Dhruv helicopters, and two more will soon be inducted

---------- Post added at 10:23 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:22 AM ----------

Crew ejects as Indian Sitara prototype crashes 
By Radhakrishna Rao

A prototype of the Hindustan Aeronautics HJT-36 Sitara intermediate jet trainer has crashed during a routine test flight over a sparsely populated area in the south Indian state of Tamilnadu.

Initial reports say both test pilots managed to eject to safety, and that the aircraft did not cause any damage to property when it hit the ground.

Designed as a replacement for the Indian air force's obsolete HAL-built Kiran jet trainers, the Sitara is a conventional subsonic design with low swept wings, a staggered cockpit and small air intake on either side of its fuselage.

The development schedule of the HJT-36 has already been delayed because of the need to replace the design's original Snecma Larzac 04H20 engine with an NPO Saturn 55I powerplant. The programme also slipped following an accident which damaged a prototype aircraft during the Aero India show in 2007. This was subsequently returned to flight status


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## Bossman

US doubts HAL's capability
TNN, Feb 19, 2011, 02.50am IST


|India-US relations|Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd|HALThe remark drew a sharp response from an MoD official, who said the PSU was already producing a fighter like the Sukhoi-30MKI.NEW DELHI: The US seems to have committed a howler in the race to bag the "mother of all defence deals", the $10.4 billion project to acquire 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft for IAF, which is in the final lap now. 

Washington has expressed serious doubts on the ability of Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) to handle projects like the MMRCA, dubbing it "untested and suspect". This drew a sharp response from a defence ministry official, who pointed out the defence PSU was already engaged in producing a frontline "air dominance" fighter like Sukhoi-30MKI with Russia's help. 

As per the MMRCA contract, which India hopes to ink this year, 18 jets will be bought off-the-shelf from the foreign vendor finally selected, while the rest will be manufactured by HAL in India after transfer of technology. 

Two American fighters, F/A-18 'Super Hornet' ( Boeing) and F-16 'Falcon' ( Lockheed Martin), are in the race to bag the project, which is the largest fighter deal going around the world at this time. The other jets, which have undergone the gruelling field trials by IAF, are the Swedish Gripen (Saab), French Rafale (Dassault), Russian MiG-35 (United Aircraft Corporation) and Eurofighter Typhoon (consortium of British, German, Spanish and Italian companies). 

The Financial Times on Friday reported that US ambassador to India Timothy Roemer, in a confidential cable last year, had held India's aviation industry as "two to three decades behind the US and other western nations" despite some advances. 

"The potential for HAL to successfully partner with US firms on a truly advanced aircraft remains untested and suspect," said Roemer, in the cable now leaked by WikiLeaks and "seen" by the British newspaper. 

After a trip to HAL facilities in Bangalore in February 2010, Roemer also expressed surprise at the lack of automation and safety precautions at the HAL plant. US companies need to "approach partnerships carefully to understand the management and technological experience of Indian firms", he said. 


Read more: US doubts HAL's capability - The Times of India http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/i...#ixzz1ENaSZ9IR

---------- Post added at 10:25 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:25 AM ----------

LCA Tejas Falls Short of Earlier Expectations


Nov 25, 2010



By Asia-Pacific Staff
New Delhi

As Indias homegrown Light Combat Aircraft (LCA Tejas) nears critical initial operational clearance next month, Indian air force officials say the aircraft will fail to meet performance requirements laid down by the service for the limited-profile Mk.1 platform.

According to an Indian air force source associated with the long-delayed indigenous fighter program, when the Tejas passes this milestone in December, it still will not be the fighter the air force had agreed to accept for limited squadron service. Performance specifications that the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) has not been able to attain include sustained turn rate, speed at low altitude, angle of attack and certain weapon delivery profiles. Exactly how far off the performance is from the specification remains classified.

The Tejas program has enlisted EADS to help expand the flight envelope to meet service requirements.

These shortfalls come on top of a thrust deficiency that necessitated the selection of a more powerful engine, General Electrics F414-INS6, this year for a proposed Mk.2 version.

We are still working to get the platform on track for initial operational clearance, says an air force officer. It appears the exercise of resolving certain performance parameters will spill over into the post-induction phase, he notes. There was a very committed effort toward envelope expansion, though we have fallen short in certain key specifications, which we will continue to work on.

Former air force chief Srinivasapuram Krishnaswamy, who first pushed the idea of a limited induction of the homegrown fighter even if it did not fully meet service requirements, argues that the aircraft needs to be delivered without any further delay. Once it is delivered, all outstanding issues can be ironed out and our pilots can get a chance to see what it is capable of. It is important to get it into service. That is the key.

Initial deliveries of the aircraft early next year will be to the Indian air forces Aircraft & Systems Testing Establishment in Bangalore, where the platforms will be tested before formal induction into squadron service for a year-long exercise in defining a role for the Tejas. The service has ordered 20 Tejas Mk.1 jets (and is processing an order for 20 more), powered by the GE F414-IN20 for two inaugural squadrons that will be established at peninsular air bases after the Aero India show in February.

The Tejas program has embarked on putting the ostensibly more capable Tejas Mk.2 on track, as well. An ADA team is optimizing the Tejas airframe for the F414 powerplant and has initiated studies on the aircrafts proposed operational envelope, fluid dynamics studies of new components and analysis of new engine components. The team is also producing fresh numerical master geometry and inboard drawings, a new digital mock-up of the entire Mk.2, and a wind tunnel model in collaboration with the National Aerospace Laboratory.

The Tejas Mk.2 is scheduled to make its first flight in 2014, with full-rate production to follow two years later.

---------- Post added at 10:26 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:25 AM ----------

Turbulence ahead for Indian fighter jet: analysts
Thu Jan 20, 3:25 am ET

NEW DELHI (AFP) &#8211; India's homegrown fighter jet, the Tejas, has finally been cleared for operations but analysts say any celebration of India's entry into an elite club of military hardware producers is premature.

Initial operational approval for the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) has taken 26 years -- the result of endless developmental delays, technological hiccups and massive cost overruns.

First conceived as a direct replacement for the Indian Air Force's (IAF) ageing fleet of Russian-made MiG-21s -- tagged "flying coffins" for their abysmal safety record -- the LCA was hyped as a milestone in India's bid to reduce its dependency on military imports.

Although conceived, designed and assembled in India, its "indigenous" label is somewhat misleading as 40 percent of its components are foreign-made, including the radar and US-built engine.

Formal induction of the Tejas is still two or three years away, and questions remain over its eventual suitability.

"Only after the aircraft is put in use by the pilots will its strength and limitations become clear," said Ajey Lele, a Research Fellow at the Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses in New Delhi.

"India's peculiar security requirements demand a very capable air force with state-of-the-art platform and weapon systems. Naturally, the Tejas will have to fulfil major expectations," he added.

"Its too early to pop the bubbly," warned military aviation specialist Kapil Kak, saying procuring engines for a second generation of Tejas could become a headache for India.

Accepting the LCA's operational clearance certificate last week, Air Chief Marshal P.V. Naik seemed less than enthused, noting that the aircraft was really a "Mig-21, plus, plus" and not the fourth generation fighter it was conceived as.

"There are some areas where work still needs to be done. There are aspects that need to be improved," Naik said. "We've waited a long time for the Tejas. We don't want a partial platform."

The LCA is a single-seater, single-engine, supersonic tactical jet equipped with the latest avionics, weaponry and advanced multi-mode radar. It can be armed with an array of weapons including freefall and laser guided bombs, air-to-air, air-to-ground and anti-ship missiles.

Developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation and manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd in conjunction with a host of public and private sector firms, the first prototype took to the skies in 2001 and since then 1,500 test flights have been conducted.

From an initial budget of 5.6 billion rupees ($123 million), the cost of developing the fighter has snowballed over the years to around 180 billion rupees.

While acknowledging the LCA's troubled history, Arun Sharma, a former chief of naval staff and chairman of the National Maritime Foundation think-tank, said the project should still be applauded for overcoming major challenges.

Among them was the imposition of US-led sanctions in the wake of India's 1998 nuclear tests, which put crucial technologies out of reach and contributed to the delays.

"Only a handful of countries can claim the ability and competence to successfully bring a project of such complexity to fruition," Sharma said.

"So it would be churlish not to acknowledge the achievement of our aircraft designers and scientists for having delivered -- albeit belatedly -- a state-of-the-art combat aircraft."

And John Siddharth, a South Asia defence analyst with consultancy Frost & Sullivan, said India would have learned useful lessons from the sometimes painful experience of the LCA project.

"Indigenous production will help companies to be self-dependent on weaponry systems and the successful development of Tejas programme has certainly boosted the perspective of Indian aerospace companies," Siddharth said.

In 2009, India launched its own nuclear submarine, the Arihant, to similar plaudits and talk of the country's growing military self-sufficiency.

But like the LCA, the Arihant is still years and many arduous trials away from full induction into the armed forces.

In the meantime, India's dependency on foreign hardware is set to continue.

New Delhi is likely to finalise a $12 billion deal in July for 126 fighter jets for which six global aeronautical giants including companies from the United States, France, Europe and Russia are competing.

And last month it signed an agreement with long-time supplier Russia for the joint production of up to 250 advanced stealth fighter jets which experts say could be worth $25 billion.


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## Bossman

Tuesday, April 13, 2010
A Pakistani Trainer Jet For The Indian Air Force?


Here is a chance that India blew to send a strong message for peace with both Pakistan and China. An Egyptian diplomat based in New Delhi apparently offered recently to help Indian Air Force overcome its shabby pilot training program.

According to a report by the Indian magazine Business Standard, the Egyptian official offered a novel solution: An Egyptian Air Force training crew flown from Egypt to India to train Indian pilots using Karakoram-8, the multirole trainer jointly developed by both Pakistan and China and now used by a growing list of countries, including Egypt, Sri Lanka, Indonesia, Malaysia, Zimbabwe, Myanmar, Namibia, not to mention the air forces of both Pakistan and China.

Says the Indian magazine: "Since the offer was not followed up in writing, the Indian Air Force (IAF) was spared the embarrassment of having to reply."

But the Egyptian diplomat was not playing dumb. He knew what he was saying. The Egyptians are no novices in diplomacy. Maybe he was just hoping to make a small indirect breakthrough in India's tense relationship with both Pakistan and China. Cairo enjoys excellent relations with Islamabad and Beijing.

It would have been a smart move had the Indian air force accepted the offer. New Delhi has close ties to Egypt and extensive military-to-military relations. So there is no question of trust deficit. Using a trainer developed by Pakistan and China would have said a lot about how confident India is about itself. The move would have also made financial and practical sense. Despite India's massive military procurement program, it's pilot training record is downright embarrassing. Again, here's a quote from the same report: "... the IAF&#8217;s notoriously unreliable basic trainer, the HPT-32 Deepak, was grounded after a horrific crash that killed two experienced pilots. In 17 Deepak crashes so far, 19 pilots have died."

This move would have done good where Indian diplomacy in recent years has done little to improve relations with its two neighbors.

The list of Indian hostile messages to Pakistan and China is long [acquiring Pakistan-specific weapon systems, building Pakistan- and China-specific bases near the two borders, quietly supporting terrorism inside China in Tibet in Xinjiang and Inside Pakistan's Balochistan and in cities close to Pakistan's border with India.

The Karakoram-8, and its several recent upgraded models, is jointly developed and produced by China Nanchang Aircraft Manufacturing Corporation and Pakistan Aeronautical Complex. The plane is called K-8 Karakorum after the mountain range that separates China and Pakistan. Although it is a trainer, the jet can be used for light air-to-ground combat roles with easy modifications. [See specifications here].


Source: http://aq-lounge.blogspot.com/2010/0...ndian-air.html

---------- Post added at 10:29 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:28 AM ----------

An advanced light helicopter Dhruv of the Indian Air Force crash-landed in Rajasthan&#8217;s Jaisalmer district while rehearsing for the &#8216;Vayu Shakti&#8217; air power show to be held there on Sunday.

The helicopter was part of the Sarang helicopter display team of the IAF and was rehearsing for Sunday&#8217;s air show, when the incident occurred, IAF officials said here.

&#8220;Both pilots are safe after they had to make a controlled crash-landing due to loss of power in the chopper,&#8221; they added.

The IAF has ordered a Court of Inquiry to look into the reasons behind the incident, the officials said.

In 2005, the entire ALH Dhruv fleet had been grounded for several months after a similar incident in Andhra Pradesh and the subsequent probe had found a fault with the tail rotor blades of the choppers.

On whether the display team comprising four ALH Dhruvs will take part in the air show, for which the President and the Defence Minister are also coming.


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## acetophenol

mahendra axe:


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## Bossman

LCA Tejas Mk 2 to fly by 2014, Mk 1 not yet developed! 
Posted by vkthakur on Sunday, July 26, 2009 (EST) 


Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) has issued a RFP for the supply of 99 engines with thrust in the 95-100 KN to power Tejas LCA Mk 2, which the agency hopes will fly in 2014. Photo Credit: ADA

July 26, 2009, (Sawf News) - Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) has issued a RFP for the supply of 99 engines with thrust in the 95-100 KN to power Tejas LCA Mk 2, which the agency hopes will fly in 2014. 

The RFP is being sent to just two contenders: General Electric (GE) for the F414 engine and Eurojet for the EJ200 engine. They are required to submit their proposals by October 12. 

The RFP indicates an initial procurement of 99 engines with an optional follow-up up for 49 more. The initial batch of engines will be procured directly from the manufacturer with the rest being assembled at HAL (inevitably!) 

The Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) project was sanctioned in 1982 with a budget of Rs 560 crore to develop a state-of-the-art F-16 class fighter aircraft to replace IAF's MiG-21 fighters. 

Close to Rs 6,000 crore have since been spent but the aircraft, rechristened as Tejas, still remains under development. 

The aircraft is currently being tested with a substitute engine (F404-GE-IN20) and makeshift avionics package. 

The LCA was designed around the Kaveri engine that DRDO's Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) has been developing since 1989. The Kaveri engine has so far burnt more cash ($400 million) than fuel. The power plant is grossly overweight and does not have the 21,000-22,500lb of thrust (93-100kN) that the IAF requires. 

To make matters worst, the LCA is 1.5 tons heavier than envisaged. As a result its thrust to weight ratio and maneuverability are dismal. Its aerial display at Aero India 2009 was uninspiring. 

In September 2008, realizing that the Kaveri engine was better suited to power ships (Seriously, there is a proposal!) than fighter aircraft, ADA announced plans to issue a RFP for a more powerful engine in the 95-100 kilo Newtons (kN) range. 

Surprisingly, or perhaps not so surprisingly, ADA has taken a year to issue the RFP. ADA officials tell The Hindu that the delay was caused because HAL butted in to say they would assemble the engines. ADA, already embarrassed by project delays was keen to procure all of them off the shelf. 

Though the RFP stipulates only assembly, not license manufacture, HAL is keen to work on manufacturing technologies such as single crystal blade and blade cooling that will come with these engines. HAL of course has nothing to show as achievements for all the fighter engines that it has assembled in the past. 

Eurojet is trying to steal the march over GE by promising that an Indian entity can join them "as a partner" in designing modifications/ improvements to the EJ200. 

The Tejas will need to be redesigned to accommodate the larger engine probably triggering another weight spiral. 

In October 2008, Defense Minister A K Antony announced that the country would purchase a total of 140 Tejas aircraft to form seven fighter squadrons of the IAF. 

The initial 40 Tejas aircraft will be powered by the GE 404. Subsequent aircraft will be powered by the Kaveri replacement. 

It is unlikely that anyone involved with the LCA &#8211; IAF, ADA, HAL or even the Defense Minister &#8211; believes that there will ever be seven Tejas squadrons, but everyone is playing along. Like the Marut, developed in the 1960s, the LCA will enter into limited squadron service for 5-10 years before being placed in parks at city centers, schools and museums. 

Incidentally, click on the "Tejas LCA" link in the left sidebar. It will take you to one of the most popular article on this blog that I wrote in 2004. I am repeating pretty much what I said then for which I got panned. I will probably get panned for saying it again, thanks to you DRDO "patriots."


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## acetophenol

@bossman--why are you doing this?


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## Bossman

HAL&#8217;s global projects hit air pockets after aircraft crashes

Huma Siddiqui 
Posted: Thursday, Dec 17, 2009 at 0019 hrs IST
Updated: Thursday, Dec 17, 2009 at 0019 hrs IST

New Delhi: Despite the best efforts of the Indian government to strengthen its domestic defence production capabilities, the state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) seems destinedto fail in every project with international collaboration, it has embarked on so far. 

Soon after President Pratibha Patil undertook a much-publicised flight in a combat aircraft, a Sukhoi-30 MKI jet of the c (IAF) crashed near Jethagaon in Jaisalmer while returning from a regular training mission. This was the second of India&#8217;s most advanced fighter jet in less than eight months. 

According to sources, the aircraft that crashed was a new machine that had recently been rolled out by HAL and was part of an upcoming squadron in Pune. 

This is the second crash of a Sukhoi-30 MKI fighter after a fatal accident on April 30 in which an officer lost his life. The fleet was grounded for close to a month after the April crash and sources said that the fighters are likely to stay on the ground till investigators give a go ahead. However they were flying again. 

Earlier this year, in July, defence minister AK Antony had said that while there are no serious maintenance problems with the aircraft, the fleet was grounded for three weeks to ascertain the cause of the crash. He also revealed that the reason for the crash was a &#8220;likely failure of the fly-by-wire system&#8221;. 

Antony had maintained that, &#8220;The Su-30 is one of the most advanced jets in the world. The IAF is very happy with it. The IAF feels it is one of the best in the world.&#8221; 

The Su-30 was inducted in 1996 and the IAF fleet currently comprises 98 aircraft. This will rise to 230 by 2015, Antony said. The IAF operates three squadrons (approximately 55 aircraft) of the jet; some were bought in flyaway condition from its Russian manufacturer while state-owned HAL manufactured the others under licence. 

The state-owned aerospace major HAL has sharply ramped up its manufacturing capacities and is set to deliver 350 combat jets, trainers and helicopters worth Rs500 billion to the Indian armed forces by 2012. 

HAL, from its plants at Bangalore, Nashik and Koraput, is currently engaged in manufacturing some 100 indigenous Dhruv advanced light helicopters, an almost equal number of Sukhoi Su-30 MKI combat jets under licence from Russia, some 60 Hawk advanced jet trainers under license from Britain and a little over 20 indigenous Tejas light combat jets.

http://www.financialexpress.com/news...rashes/555052/


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## acetophenol

armoured scorpio:


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## Bossman

IAF wants to train afresh flying cadets at Dundigal 

Ravi Sharma 

BANGALORE: The Indian Air Force has written to the government asking that it be permitted to recommence ab initio flying training of around 140 cadets at the Air Force Academy (AFA) at Dundigal near Hyderabad. 

The IAF&#8217;s letter comes in the wake of the grounding of the entire fleet of its basic trainer &#8212; the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited-manufactured Hindustan Piston Trainer-32 (HPT-32) and suspension of stage-I basic flying training. 

The grounding soon after the July 31 crash of a HPT-32 in Andhra Pradesh&#8217;s Medak district, in which two senior flying instructors were killed, means that cadets at present do not have a basic trainer, in which they take their first flying lessons. 

Further, the life of the intermediate Kirans, which are of 1960s vintage, may get drastically reduced, making them unavailable for the IAF&#8217;s intermediate flying training. 

In its letter, the IAF has also asked that the process of finding a new basic trainer which will replace HPT-32 be fast tracked. For, getting the grounded HPT-32 back in action &#8220;would not happen in the near future.&#8221;

The IAF is also not prepared to re-accept HPT-32 until the HAL and the engine manufacturer, Lycoming Engines, jointly certify that the trainer is safe for flying. 

Officials at the HAL disclosed that a committee was formed to look into the modifications needed before the trainer becomes safe for flying. 

But the HAL record over the past 20 years in making numerous modifications to the HPT-32&#8217;s fuel system has been ineffective. 

Meanwhile, preliminary findings of the Court of Inquiry into the July 31 crash show that the trainer suffered an &#8216;engine cut&#8217; (a situation where the engine suddenly switches-off) in mid-air. The two pilots&#8217; efforts to restart the engine failed, leading to the crash. 

For the IAF, the engine cuts on HPT-32 have been disastrous what with 90 such incidents reported since it became operational in 1984.


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## acetophenol

Ashok Leyland FAT 6x6 artillery tractor


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## Bossman

by Ajai Shukla 
Bangalore, India 
Business Standard

With India&#8217;s home-built Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) --- the Tejas --- flying successfully through its testing process, the Indian Air Force (IAF) has now signed up for an indigenous Medium Combat Aircraft (MCA). Within days, the IAF and a team of aircraft designers will formally set up a joint committee to frame the specifications for India&#8217;s own MCA, which will be built largely in Bangalore.

The MCA&#8217;s design team will centre on the agencies that have built the LCA: the Aeronautical Development Paint Agency (ADPA); the National Aeronautics Paint Laboratory (NAPL); Hindustan Aeronautics Paints Limited (HAPL); and a host of Defence R&D Organisation (DODO) laboratories that will develop futuristic sensors and systems for the MCA.

The Director of ADPA, Dr PS Subramaniam, confirmed to Business Standard, &#8220;The joint committee is likely to be formed within two or three weeks. This committee will finalise what will go into the MCA, as well as the budget and development schedule.&#8221;

According to Dr Subramaniam, the programme will aim to develop the MCA and build 5-6 prototypes at a cost of Rs 5000 crores. That is approximately the same amount that has gone into the LCA programme.

With this, Indian aeronautical designers will be working in all the fighter categories. In the light fighter category (10-11 tons), the Tejas LCA is expected to get operational clearance in 2011; the MCA will be India&#8217;s first foray into the medium fighter category (14-15 tons); and in the heavy fighter category (20 tons plus), currently ruled by the Russian Sukhoi-30MKI, Indian designers plan to partner their Russian counterparts in developing the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA).

Interestingly, the decision to develop an indigenous MCA comes alongside the overseas procurement of 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) for an estimated Rs 50,000 crores. Senior IAF planners point out that the MMRCA procurement is unavoidable for replacing the MiG-29s and Mirage-2000s that will become obsolete while the MCA is still being developed.

By 2020, when the IAF&#8217;s current fleet would have been largely phased out, MoD planners forecast a requirement for at least 250 medium fighters. This has raised hopes amongst the MMRCA contenders (the US F/A-18 and F-16, Russia&#8217;s Mig-35; the Eurofighter Typhoon; and the Swedish Gripen) that the winner could end up supplying twice as many fighters as the current tender. But a successful Indian MCA programme would cap the MMRCA procurement at 126 fighters. After that, the MCA production will kick in.

The MCA designers plan to pursue technologies superior to anything currently on offer. The ADA Director points out, &#8220;None of the MMRCA contenders will be state-of-the-art in 2015-2017. But the MCA will; it will incorporate the technologies of the future, which currently feature only on the US Air Force&#8217;s F-22 Raptor.&#8221; 

India&#8217;s aeronautical designers see the MCA programme as crucial for taking forward the expertise that has been painstakingly accumulated in the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) programme. The IAF is in agreement; and the Rama Rao Committee, set up for restructuring the DRDO, has recommended that programmes must be created to provide continuity for designers.

Says a senior MoD official: &#8220;With great difficulty we have built up a team that can design a complete combat aircraft. After a couple of years, when the LCA goes into production, there will be no design work left. Without another aircraft programme to work on, we will lose this team, having attained this level.&#8221;

---------- Post added at 10:37 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:37 AM ----------

NAL-built Saras aircraft crashed:India 

In a setback to India&#8217;s civil aircraft development programme, a Saras aircraft crashed on Bangalore&#8217;s outskirts on Friday during a test flight, killing three Indian Air Force pilots. This could put back the already delayed project schedule by at least two years, analysts said. Crashed: Saras is only the second plane after Hansa&#8212;a two-seater trainer aircraft&#8212;that is being developed locally. Hemant Mishra/MintTwo prototypes of Saras&#8212;being developed by National Aerospace Laboratories (NAL) and named after the Indian crane&#8212;have flown at least 100 hours since its maiden flight in 2004. A third so-called production-standard aircraft was expected to fly later this year.

NAL expected the aircraft to be certified by 2010. Despite a civil aviation boom in India and airlines buying passenger planes from Boeing Co. and Airbus SAS, the country does not have a strong manufacturing base. Saras is only the second plane after Hansa&#8212;a two-seater trainer aircraft&#8212;that is being developed locally. NAL is also working on designing a 70-seat passenger plane called the RTA-70 for regional transport.&#8220;This will put the programme (behind) by two years. The best way to tackle them is to learn the lessons and produce a better aircraft,&#8221; said T.J. Master, chairman of Master Aerospace Consultants Pvt. Ltd, an aerospace consultancy firm. &#8220;Aircraft development is fundamental job. It is like fundamental research&#8212;it is open to hazards,&#8221; Master said. It has been criticized as it is heavier than its desired 7,100kg weight

The cause of the crash is yet to be ascertained. The aircraft was being tested by pilots of aircraft systems and testing establishment, the elite agency of the air force that certifies every plane and system it intends to use. &#8220;It is terrible. most unexpected. I am surprised,&#8221; said Roddam Narasimha, an eminent aerospace scientist and a former director of NAL.&#8220;There will be setbacks. We have to move forward,&#8221; said M.S. Chidananda, project director of Saras at NAL. An inquiry will be ordered to ascertain reasons for the crash, he said. Till the inquiry is completed, the other aircraft will be grounded. The air force is slated to be the first customer for Saras and had expressed an interest to buy 15 of the 14-seater passenger planes that could be used for transporting goods. The plane was to be built by military plane maker Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd.

Saras is powered by two turboprop engines of Canada&#8217;s Pratt and Whitney and designed to take off and land on small runways. It is expected to replace the air force&#8217;s ageing Dornier 228 transport aircraft fleet, which it has used since the 1980s. German plane maker Dornier Gmbh, which has since ceased to exist, lost an aircraft during development trials of the Dornier 228.Saras, which has seen delays due to non-availability of components following the 1998 US sanctions, has been criticized because it is heavier than its desired weight of 7,100kg. The third aircraft was to be lighter by 500kg by using lightweight composites that would replace some metal parts.


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## acetophenol

ashok leyland bandwagon:


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## Bossman

Intermediate Jet Trainer lands on belly Ravi Sharma BANGALORE: 

In a setback to the Hindustan Aeronautics Limiteds (HAL) Intermediate Jet Trainer (IJT) programme, the Prototype Trainer Two (PT2), landed on its belly at the HAL airport here on Wednesday evening after a routine aerobatic sortie. The programme is already delayed by four years,
The sortie was undertaken as part of the preparations for the next weeks Aero India 2009 air show here. 
The aircraft was piloted by HALs Executive Director - Chief Test Pilot (Fixed Wing) Squadron Leader Baldev Singh (retd.) and Wing Commander C. Subramaniam, an Indian Air Force fighter pilot on deputation to HAL. 
Eyewitnesses said the aircraft appeared to do a normal touch-down, rolled and then the wheels started retracting, forcing it to land on its belly. 
Initial indications are that the landing speed of the aircraft could have been a shade too fast, prompting the pilots to try and retract the undercarriage, and do a touch and go as the aircraft was likely to overshoot the runway. 
There were suggestions that one of the tyres could have burst during landing, resulting in brake failure. A court of inquiry, headed by Benji Mammen, HALs Chief of Project, Light Combat Aircraft, has been set up to look into the incident.
There was structural damage to the undercarriage and belly, the doors and one of the wing tips.
HALs only chance of showcasing the IJT at the air show now rests on PT1, the prototype that suffered a crash in February 2007 (during Aero India 2007) when the canopy opened just before take-off. 
The PT1, which has not been flown since then, was recently fitted with the Russian AL-55I engine. While one ground run with the AL-55I (I for Indian) is over it is yet to get airborne.
Meant to be the backbone of the IAFs combat pilot training programme, the IJT programme was sanctioned by the government in 1999.


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## tjpf

Bossman said:


> by Ajai Shukla
> Bangalore, India
> Business Standard
> 
> With India&#8217;s home-built Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) --- the Tejas --- flying successfully through its testing process, the Indian Air Force (IAF) has now signed up for an indigenous Medium Combat Aircraft (MCA). Within days, the IAF and a team of aircraft designers will formally set up a joint committee to frame the specifications for India&#8217;s own MCA, which will be built largely in Bangalore.
> 
> The MCA&#8217;s design team will centre on the agencies that have built the LCA: the Aeronautical Development Paint Agency (ADPA); the National Aeronautics Paint Laboratory (NAPL); Hindustan Aeronautics Paints Limited (HAPL); and a host of Defence R&D Organisation (DODO) laboratories that will develop futuristic sensors and systems for the MCA.
> 
> The Director of ADPA, Dr PS Subramaniam, confirmed to Business Standard, &#8220;The joint committee is likely to be formed within two or three weeks. This committee will finalise what will go into the MCA, as well as the budget and development schedule.&#8221;
> 
> According to Dr Subramaniam, the programme will aim to develop the MCA and build 5-6 prototypes at a cost of Rs 5000 crores. That is approximately the same amount that has gone into the LCA programme.
> 
> With this, Indian aeronautical designers will be working in all the fighter categories. In the light fighter category (10-11 tons), the Tejas LCA is expected to get operational clearance in 2011; the MCA will be India&#8217;s first foray into the medium fighter category (14-15 tons); and in the heavy fighter category (20 tons plus), currently ruled by the Russian Sukhoi-30MKI, Indian designers plan to partner their Russian counterparts in developing the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA).
> 
> Interestingly, the decision to develop an indigenous MCA comes alongside the overseas procurement of 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) for an estimated Rs 50,000 crores. Senior IAF planners point out that the MMRCA procurement is unavoidable for replacing the MiG-29s and Mirage-2000s that will become obsolete while the MCA is still being developed.
> 
> By 2020, when the IAF&#8217;s current fleet would have been largely phased out, MoD planners forecast a requirement for at least 250 medium fighters. This has raised hopes amongst the MMRCA contenders (the US F/A-18 and F-16, Russia&#8217;s Mig-35; the Eurofighter Typhoon; and the Swedish Gripen) that the winner could end up supplying twice as many fighters as the current tender. But a successful Indian MCA programme would cap the MMRCA procurement at 126 fighters. After that, the MCA production will kick in.
> 
> The MCA designers plan to pursue technologies superior to anything currently on offer. The ADA Director points out, &#8220;None of the MMRCA contenders will be state-of-the-art in 2015-2017. But the MCA will; it will incorporate the technologies of the future, which currently feature only on the US Air Force&#8217;s F-22 Raptor.&#8221;
> 
> India&#8217;s aeronautical designers see the MCA programme as crucial for taking forward the expertise that has been painstakingly accumulated in the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) programme. The IAF is in agreement; and the Rama Rao Committee, set up for restructuring the DRDO, has recommended that programmes must be created to provide continuity for designers.
> 
> Says a senior MoD official: &#8220;With great difficulty we have built up a team that can design a complete combat aircraft. After a couple of years, when the LCA goes into production, there will be no design work left. Without another aircraft programme to work on, we will lose this team, having attained this level.&#8221;
> 
> ---------- Post added at 10:37 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:37 AM ----------
> 
> NAL-built Saras aircraft crashed:India
> 
> In a setback to India&#8217;s civil aircraft development programme, a Saras aircraft crashed on Bangalore&#8217;s outskirts on Friday during a test flight, killing three Indian Air Force pilots. This could put back the already delayed project schedule by at least two years, analysts said. Crashed: Saras is only the second plane after Hansa&#8212;a two-seater trainer aircraft&#8212;that is being developed locally. Hemant Mishra/MintTwo prototypes of Saras&#8212;being developed by National Aerospace Laboratories (NAL) and named after the Indian crane&#8212;have flown at least 100 hours since its maiden flight in 2004. A third so-called production-standard aircraft was expected to fly later this year.
> 
> NAL expected the aircraft to be certified by 2010. Despite a civil aviation boom in India and airlines buying passenger planes from Boeing Co. and Airbus SAS, the country does not have a strong manufacturing base. Saras is only the second plane after Hansa&#8212;a two-seater trainer aircraft&#8212;that is being developed locally. NAL is also working on designing a 70-seat passenger plane called the RTA-70 for regional transport.&#8220;This will put the programme (behind) by two years. The best way to tackle them is to learn the lessons and produce a better aircraft,&#8221; said T.J. Master, chairman of Master Aerospace Consultants Pvt. Ltd, an aerospace consultancy firm. &#8220;Aircraft development is fundamental job. It is like fundamental research&#8212;it is open to hazards,&#8221; Master said. It has been criticized as it is heavier than its desired 7,100kg weight
> 
> The cause of the crash is yet to be ascertained. The aircraft was being tested by pilots of aircraft systems and testing establishment, the elite agency of the air force that certifies every plane and system it intends to use. &#8220;It is terrible. most unexpected. I am surprised,&#8221; said Roddam Narasimha, an eminent aerospace scientist and a former director of NAL.&#8220;There will be setbacks. We have to move forward,&#8221; said M.S. Chidananda, project director of Saras at NAL. An inquiry will be ordered to ascertain reasons for the crash, he said. Till the inquiry is completed, the other aircraft will be grounded. The air force is slated to be the first customer for Saras and had expressed an interest to buy 15 of the 14-seater passenger planes that could be used for transporting goods. The plane was to be built by military plane maker Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd.
> 
> Saras is powered by two turboprop engines of Canada&#8217;s Pratt and Whitney and designed to take off and land on small runways. It is expected to replace the air force&#8217;s ageing Dornier 228 transport aircraft fleet, which it has used since the 1980s. German plane maker Dornier Gmbh, which has since ceased to exist, lost an aircraft during development trials of the Dornier 228.Saras, which has seen delays due to non-availability of components following the 1998 US sanctions, has been criticized because it is heavier than its desired weight of 7,100kg. The third aircraft was to be lighter by 500kg by using lightweight composites that would replace some metal parts.


 
its easy to criticize someone ......ur posting our failures and set back but we are posting our success......need i say more!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## acetophenol

milap carbine:


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## Bossman

Crashes, delays hit Indian participation at Aero India

Manu Pubby


Bangalore : This year's Aero India show will be the largest ever with 592 companies from 25 countries showcasing their latest products, but a series of delays, production hitches and an air crash have hit the Indian participation at the prestigious military air exposition. While no new Indian products will be on display, even older "in development" products will give the air show a miss. 


For starters, the indigenous effort to develop an Intermediate Jet Trainer (IJT) by HAL received a jolt just days before the air show. One of the two flying prototypes of the aircraft crashlanded on the runway after a routine test flight, writing it off for the Aero India show. The project, which has been delayed for close to five years already, also had a similar spell of bad luck at the last air show in 2007 when the other flying prototype crashed during take-off in full view of the participants. 


Defence Production Secretary Pradeep Kumar admitted that while HAL was planning to bring in the trainer for a demo flight, it was called off after more tests were required for the aircraft. "They (HAL) had earlier thought it would be able to fly. But we have to do some more tests now," he added. While he said the pulling out had nothing to do with the crash-landing, insiders said the trainer was being prepped up to take part in the air show but had to be pulled out after the belly landing. 


Another aircraft to be put up by HAL will be the 'indigenously manufactured' Hawk trainer for the Indian Air Force. While an 'indigenous' Hawk will be on display at HAL's pavilion, the trainer has been dogged by a serious delay over the past few months with problems of delivery of spare parts from the UK-based BAE company. Sources say BAE is holding up supplies of certain components which has delayed the aircraft production at the Indian facility. While the UK-manufactured trainers have already come in, the lack of parts means that IAF has to do without the optimum number of trainers required. As highlighted by The Indian Express, the trainer had been hit by a series of quality problems after it was inducted at the Bidar air base, prompting the IAF to take up the issue with BAE. 


The ambitious Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) project taken up by HAL will also give the show a miss with the Indian company yet to come up with a prototype of the chopper. The project, that was taken up to provide a robust armoured chopper on the basic frame of the Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH), was designed to provide a light attack chopper for the Indian Army and the Air Force. However, the project has been delayed by over a year. HAL officials had last year shown confidence that the chopper would be ready for display at Aero India and the flight tests would take place this year. 


The two major products on display by HAL will be the delay-hit LCA and the Advanced Light Helicopter. The LCA is finally getting to see the light of day and is likely to be inducted into a non-combat role by 2011. HAL's showpiece for the show will be the export version of the ALH. After bagging a contract to sell the chopper to Ecuador, HAL has put up the ALH in Ecuadorian colours for the air show.


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## acetophenol

@bossman--
open another thread,and post pakistan's indegenous products.
don't troll here.


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## Bossman

BrahMos missile test fails after early 'success' 
BrahMos missile test fails after early 'success'
21 Jan 2009, 0000 hrs IST, Rajat Pandit, TNN

NEW DELHI: The Army's endeavour to induct the BrahMos supersonic cruise missile as "a precision-strike weapon" took a hit on Tuesday, with the
missile failing to achieve laid-down parameters in a test.

This comes at a time when the Pakistan Army is galloping ahead in inducting its nuclear-capable Babur land-attack cruise missile (LACM) - developed with China's help to have a strike range of over 500 km - in large numbers into its arsenal.

Initially, the BrahMos LACM test from the Pokhran field firing range at 10.23am on Tuesday was touted as "successful" by defence ministry officials. But later in the day, this newspaper learnt that it had been quite unsuccessful.

Top defence officials were, however, still reluctant to dub the test, which was witnessed by Army chief General Deepak Kapoor, as "a complete failure".

"BrahMos is a unique missile, which has been tested flawlessly almost 20 times till now. On Tuesday, we were test-firing it with a new guidance scheme...it was not successful. Further trials are required," said an official, reluctant to say anything more.

Sources said it was likely that the BrahMos missile, which flies at a speed of 2.8 Mach, tested on Tuesday had been configured to carry a nuclear warhead rather than a conventional one.

The Army already has missile groups to handle the 150-km Prithvi, 700-800-km Agni-I and 2000-km-plus Agni-II ballistic missiles, which are nuclear-capable.

On its part, Army has ordered two BrahMos regiments in the first phase at a cost of Rs 8,352 crore, with 134 missiles, 10 road-mobile autonomous launchers on 12x12 Tatra vehicles, four mobile command posts and the like, said sources.

The Navy, in turn, has ordered 49 BrahMos firing units at a cost of Rs 711 crore for now. All the tests of the BrahMos naval version, both anti-ship and land-attack ones, have been successful till now.

BrahMos was even fired successfully from a vertical launcher - the earlier tests were from "inclined" launchers - fitted on Rajput-class destroyer INS Ranvir in Bay of Bengal last month.

The "universal vertical launcher" is significant since it imparts the missile system with some stealth as well as the capability to be fired in any direction. It also paves the way for the integration of BrahMos missiles on submarines.

Even as India and Russia begin preliminary work on a "hypersonic" BrahMos-2 missile capable of flying at a speed between 5 and 7 Mach, two Indian Sukhoi-30MKI fighters have also been sent to Russia for integration with BrahMos' air-launched version.

The armed forces' eventual plan, of course, is to have nuclear-tipped LACMs, with strike ranges in excess of 1,500 km. Unlike ballistic missiles, cruise missiles do not leave the atmosphere and are powered and guided throughout their flight path.

Cruise missiles, which can evade enemy radars and air defence systems since they fly at low altitudes, are also much cheaper as well as more accurate and easier to operate. 

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/I...ow/4006146.cms Reply Reply With Quote .

---------- Post added at 10:42 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:42 AM ----------

IAF pilot killed in Surya Kiran crash

Vicky Nanjappa in Bangalore | January 21, 2009 11:11 IST
Last Updated: January 21, 2009 11:56 IST


An Indian Air Force fighter pilot on a training sortie was killed when a Surya Kiran trainer aircraft crashed near Bidar in Karnataka on Wednesday morning.

The pilot, who had joined the Surya Kiran Aerobatics team recently, was on the Kiran Mk II trainer aircraft, when the mishap occurred at 8.45 hours, IAF sources said.

The deceased pilot was identified as Wing Commander Daliwal.

The aircraft took off from Bidar and the crash took place a few minutes later at a vacant plot near the air force station.

The Air Headquarters immediately ordered an inquiry into the mishap.

This is the second fatal Surya Kiran air mishap in the last six years, the previous one reported in March 2006 at the same air base when two pilots were killed. 

The Surya Kiran Aerobatics Team -- formally christened so in 1996 -- is just one of the four nine-aircraft formation flying squads in the world and traces its history to the IAF's Hunter aircraft formation flying squad, the Thunderbolts of 1982.

It currently has 13 fighter pilots as part of its team from the Mirage-2000, Jaguar, MiG-23 and MiG-27 streams.

For a fighter pilot to be a member of SKAT, he should be a Qualified Flying Instructor and clocked at least 2,000 hours of flying, of which about 1,000 hours should be on Kiran Mk II aircraft.

The current Commanding Officer of SKAT is Wing Commander Joy Thomas Kurien.

---------- Post added at 10:43 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:42 AM ----------

Engine switch-off renders HAL trainer risky 
Ravi Sharma

IAF seeks urgent remedial action for engine cuts 

Technical problems have dogged HPT-32 since 1984

Now, cadets have to follow unnecessary procedures
BANGALORE: The Indian Air Force is seeking urgent remedial action from Hindustan Aeronautics Limited on technical problems in the single-engine, piston aircraft used for initial pilot training, HPT-32. 

Though technical problems in the HAL-manufactured HPT-32 have occurred almost since its induction in 1984, the IAF&#8217;s concern now stems from engine cuts suffered by two HPT-32s at the Bidar Air Force Station recently. 

Senior officials told The&#8194;Hindu that the two engine cuts &#8212; a situation where the aircraft engine suddenly switches off &#8212; one on the ground and the other while the aircraft was airborne caused serious concern among the young and inexperienced cadets. 

&#8220;Though the aircraft has been with the IAF since 1984, HAL has not been able to completely rectify the problem primarily with the engine and caused possibly by a design mismatch between the HAL-manufactured airframe and the Lycoming AEO piston engine.&#8221; 

The cadets must now go through elaborate and normally unnecessary procedures while taxiing. While airborne, they will have to remember procedures which will ensure that the engine does not switch off. &#8220;The cadets are naturally not at ease with flying.&#8221; 

Accidents 


A few years ago, after a series of accidents, the IAF almost declared the HPT-32 &#8220;too dangerous to fly solo.&#8221; Then, the engine cuts in mid-air were traced to the entry of vapour from the fuel lines. HAL engineers have initiated a number of changes including the &#8216;1116 modification&#8217;, by creating an air separator tank that gathers vapour and feeds it back to the fuel tanks. But engine cuts have continued. 

In May, a 21-year-old cadet Deepika Sharma was killed when the HPT-32 she was flying solo plunged to the ground just after takeoff. Sources said preliminary findings showed that the engine had suffered a leak, spluttering oil on the windshield. 

Replacement 


The IAF hopes that HAL will come out with a replacement for the HPT-32 by 2013-14 and has finalised its qualitative requirements &#8212;a trainer that has a reliable turboprop engine, an ejection seat, a glass cockpit and a benign aircraft with good spin characteristics. 
http://www.hindu.com/2008/11/16/stor...1656440900.htm


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## acetophenol

hal lancer:


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## Bossman

IAF insists on changes to Tejas:
It does not meet minimum air staff requirements

Bangalore, Friday, December 05, 2008: The Indian Air Force has categorically ruled out placing further orders for the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), Tejas, with its current configuration. 

In 2005, the IAF placed an order with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited for 16 fighters and four trainers. The then Defence Minister Pranab Mukherjee said a decision on an additional 20 aircraft was under consideration. But that plan has come a cropper since the overweight, under-powered Tejas does not meet the IAF&#8217;s minimum air staff requirements (ASR). 

The IAF decision though is not the end of the road for the Rs. 6,000-crore LCA programme. It will consider acquiring 125 more Tejas when an improved &#8212; Mark 2 (Mk2) &#8212; variant is developed. As indicated by an IAF committee in 2004, any further order will be subject to the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), the designer and developer of the LCA programme, showing &#8220;firm visibility that the aircraft will meet the ASR.&#8221; 

Recently, the IAF even made a few suggestions on improvements in Tejas Mk2, including a more powerful engine, optimisation of the aerodynamic qualities and weight of the aircraft and &#8220;dropping and replacing&#8221; certain parts to take care of obsolescence. 

Tejas Mk2 will take a few years to fructify, the biggest challenge being choosing a new powerful engine. In December, the ADA is expected to issue a request for proposal to General Electric for its GE F414 and to the European consortium Eurojet for EJ200, in a bid to procure 99 engines (with an option to buy another 49). 

Once the engine is chosen, fuselage modifications will have to be carried out, flight tests started and evaluation undertaken. All trainer aircraft even after Tejas Mk2 rolls out will continue to have the present GE F404 engines. 

Cold weather trials: 

On the LCA programme, the ADA is getting ready for &#8216;cold weather trials.&#8217; They were to have been conducted in 2007 but were not because of questions about the aircraft&#8217;s reliability. 

Two or three aircraft are scheduled to leave for Leh on December 8. Cold weather trials include landing the Tejas at Leh, one of the most challenging airfields in the world, and &#8216;cold soak&#8217; when temperatures are around minus 15 degrees C to see if the systems on board function normally. 

Slow pace: 

The IAF is also worried about the slow pace and quality of work at HAL. More so, because it will not be able to deliver by 2013, as scheduled, the 20 aircraft for which orders have been placed. Defence Minister A K Antony recently said the Tejas would enter squadron service by 2011, which date, according to officials, is highly optimistic as hardly 10 or 12 test sorties are now being undertaken. The IAF expects the final operational clearance for the Tejas only after 2012.


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## PoKeMon

*@Bossman*

Have a life mate. Go outside and see the beauty of nature. Sanity will prevail then.
Hire some guru/maulvi who can help you getting mental peace. You are in critical position. Your level of hate has already passes your level of intellect hence your silly digging of decades olds news article.

Please help yourself.

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## tjpf

Bossman said:


> Crashes, delays hit Indian participation at Aero India
> 
> Manu Pubby
> 
> 
> Bangalore : This year's Aero India show will be the largest ever with 592 companies from 25 countries showcasing their latest products, but a series of delays, production hitches and an air crash have hit the Indian participation at the prestigious military air exposition. While no new Indian products will be on display, even older "in development" products will give the air show a miss.
> 
> 
> For starters, the indigenous effort to develop an Intermediate Jet Trainer (IJT) by HAL received a jolt just days before the air show. One of the two flying prototypes of the aircraft crashlanded on the runway after a routine test flight, writing it off for the Aero India show. The project, which has been delayed for close to five years already, also had a similar spell of bad luck at the last air show in 2007 when the other flying prototype crashed during take-off in full view of the participants.
> 
> 
> Defence Production Secretary Pradeep Kumar admitted that while HAL was planning to bring in the trainer for a demo flight, it was called off after more tests were required for the aircraft. "They (HAL) had earlier thought it would be able to fly. But we have to do some more tests now," he added. While he said the pulling out had nothing to do with the crash-landing, insiders said the trainer was being prepped up to take part in the air show but had to be pulled out after the belly landing.
> 
> 
> Another aircraft to be put up by HAL will be the 'indigenously manufactured' Hawk trainer for the Indian Air Force. While an 'indigenous' Hawk will be on display at HAL's pavilion, the trainer has been dogged by a serious delay over the past few months with problems of delivery of spare parts from the UK-based BAE company. Sources say BAE is holding up supplies of certain components which has delayed the aircraft production at the Indian facility. While the UK-manufactured trainers have already come in, the lack of parts means that IAF has to do without the optimum number of trainers required. As highlighted by The Indian Express, the trainer had been hit by a series of quality problems after it was inducted at the Bidar air base, prompting the IAF to take up the issue with BAE.
> 
> 
> The ambitious Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) project taken up by HAL will also give the show a miss with the Indian company yet to come up with a prototype of the chopper. The project, that was taken up to provide a robust armoured chopper on the basic frame of the Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH), was designed to provide a light attack chopper for the Indian Army and the Air Force. However, the project has been delayed by over a year. HAL officials had last year shown confidence that the chopper would be ready for display at Aero India and the flight tests would take place this year.
> 
> 
> The two major products on display by HAL will be the delay-hit LCA and the Advanced Light Helicopter. The LCA is finally getting to see the light of day and is likely to be inducted into a non-combat role by 2011. HAL's showpiece for the show will be the export version of the ALH. After bagging a contract to sell the chopper to Ecuador, HAL has put up the ALH in Ecuadorian colours for the air show.



with all this news about our set backs u are making every indian here proud tat inspite of all these set back look how far we have come....as they say "FAILURES ARE STEPPING STONES TO SUCCESS"........at least we are trying and not running to chinese for everything.....u take F16 from US for free or at much discounted price yet u badmouth americans...shameful society!!!!!!!


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## Bossman

tjpf said:


> its easy to criticize someone ......ur posting our failures and set back but we are posting our success......need i say more!!!!!!!!!!!!


 
We are both posting about the same things, except I am posting facts and you are posting myths


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## tjpf

Bossman said:


> We are both posting about the same things, except I am posting facts and you are posting myths


 
perceptions man!!!!!!!!


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## Bossman

Navy plans to ditch Dhruv helicopters


The Indian Navy has virtually written off the naval variant of the advanced light helicopter (ALH), Dhruv, saying it has failed to meet basic operational requirements. The navy, which operates a fleet of six ALHs, has decided against placing further orders with the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).
A senior navy official told HT, &#8220;The ALH has a long way to go before the programme matures sufficiently for it to undertake basic naval roles such as search and rescue (SAR) and communication duties.&#8221; He said the helicopter&#8217;s ASW (anti-submarine warfare) version developed by HAL still falls short of naval expectations.
Navy officials said that the ALH lacks the desired endurance for mission requirements. The navy is also not satisfied with the chopper&#8217;s rotor blade folding mechanism for storage on warships and its payload capacity. The navy has launched a global hunt for new ASW helicopters to replace its ageing fleet of Sea King helicopters.
However, HAL remains buoyant about domestic helicopter sale prospects with the defence ministry entrusting it with the task of developing light utility helicopters for the army and the air force. The ministry has allocated Rs 435 crore for this. The defence public sector undertaking is focusing aggressively on the helicopter business and plans to set up a new helicopter division in Bangalore.

HindustanTimes-Print
© Copyright 2007 Hindustan Times


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## Bossman

tjpf said:


> perceptions man!!!!!!!!


 
Perception is reality. Your position is indefensible. If LCA was so good why buy MRCA, if Arjun was so good why buy T90 the list goes on and on and on


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## Bossman

Defence: Strategic plans, tech snags 
Sunday April 20 2008 11:24 IST 

Manoj K. Das 


KOCHI: The Indian Air Force has a serious problem with the lightness of the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), the country&#8217;s flagship indigenous aviation programme. 

A list of issues has recently been raised by the IAF about the project, already flying through a bad patch of technological factors and time and cost overruns. 

Engine-related issues continue to plague the project and the Air Force is not happy with the thrust values generated by the new GE404 engine powering the aircraft. 

In fact, one factor that threw the project out of gear was the delay in developing the Kaveri engines.With no option in sight, HAL decided to go ahead with the developmental trials with the GE 404 till an indigenous engine was ready. 

The IAF experts now say that the thrust generated by the GE404 is not adequate for all the manoeuvres expected of the LCA,which will be replacing the ageing MiG 21 fleet. 

&#8220;It&#8217;s no longer light. The aircraft was supposed to weigh only 8,000 kg after all the changes effected on it. But today it has put on another 2,000 kg and weighs 10,000 kg. And it is but natural that the engine is unable to support it to the maximum,&#8221; IAF sources told this website&#8217;s newspaper. 

This leaves HAL in a dilemma. The builder now has to either subject the aircraft to some design planning with a view to reducing the drag or reduce the weight of the aircraft. 

&#8220;There is hardly any flab on its body. We will take a look at the design to reduce drag,&#8221; sources said. But that is easier said than done. 

HAL will have to go in for a design consultancy to fine-tune an already tested aircraft, which will further delay the full-fledged commissioning of the project. 

&#8220;Another solution, and probably the best, will be to use a new engine with better thrust levels. The new engine can be selected with the weight-thrust ratio in mind. This will take care of all manoeuvres expected of the aircraft even if its weight were to go up slightly again,&#8221; sources said. 

The IAF and HAL have formed a committee to look into the issues, including the selection of a new engine. A high-level meeting is scheduled this month end to finalise the action plan. 

&#8220;But HAL will build 20 LCA-Tejas aircraft for the IAF as planned. This squadron will be inducted and the base is getting ready at Sulur in Tamil Nadu,&#8221; sources said. 

News article


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## acetophenol

Bossman said:


> Perception is reality. Your position is indefensible. *If LCA was so good why buy MRCA, if Arjun was so good why buys T90 *the list goes on and on and on



welcome to defence.pk!


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## acetophenol

insas rifle with oman army

Reactions: Like Like:
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## tjpf

Bossman said:


> Perception is reality. Your position is indefensible. If LCA was so good why buy MRCA, if Arjun was so good why buy T90 the list goes on and on and on


 to complement each other based on each others positives and negatives!!!!!!!

---------- Post added at 10:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:55 AM ----------




acetophenol said:


> welcome to defence.pk!


 thanks


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## notsuperstitious

Thank you Sir,

Our testing failures, teething problems and technological challenges prove these are indigenous.

We take that as a compliment from the land of no missile failures

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## acetophenol

vidhwanask amr:






its bullet;


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## Bossman

acetophenol said:


> insas rifle with oman army


 
If Omanese were of mongoloid race, you are right. They are Nepalese, who lost a lot of men becuase of failure of the INSAS in fighting with the Moaist. Here is the whole story, As I said your position in indefensibel

*Indian guns let 'Nepal down in Maoist battle'*Indian Express ^ 

Posted on Friday, August 12, 2005 12:00:40 PM by Black Beak

The Nepali army said on Friday faulty Indian assault rifles were partly responsible for its heavy death toll in a gun battle with Maoist rebels as troops hunted for 75 soldiers still missing after the fighting. 

Forty-three soldiers and a civilian were killed when hundreds of rebels attacked an army base in the remote Kalikot district, 600 km from the capital, Kathmandu, late on Sunday. 

The Maoists, fighting to topple Nepal's monarchy and establish Communist rule, say they captured 52 soldiers after the raid, a claim rejected by the army. 

Army spokesman Brigadier-General Dipak Gurung said the Indian-manufactured INSAS rifles malfunctioned during the fighting which continued for about 10 hours. 

"Soldiers complained that the INSAS rifles did not function properly during the fighting which lasted for a long time," Gurung told a news conference when asked why the army death toll was high. 

"May be the weapons we were using were not designed for a long fight. They malfunctioned," he said. 

There were also fewer troops at the base as it was a road construction project and not a fighting base, he added. 

The army casualties were the heaviest since Maoist violence escalated after King Gyanendra seized direct power in February by sacking the multiparty government. 

"There were stoppages during the firing, the rifles got hot and soldiers had to wait for them to cool," another officer said. 

India is a key military supplier to the poorly equipped Nepali army. But New Delhi suspended arms supplies six months ago after the King's power grab to press the monarch to restore multi-party democracy and civil liberties. 

Nepali troops have complained in the past about technical problems with the Indian designed and built INSAS or Indian Small Arms System assault rifle. 

Indian troops using the rifle are also known to have faced difficulties using it, Indian defence experts say. Indian defence officials declined to react to the Nepali comments. 

The nine-year Maoist revolt has scared away investors in the desperately cash-strapped nation and wrecked the economy that is heavily dependent on international aid and tourism. 

More than 12,500 people have died in the conflict and tens of thousands of people have fled their homes to towns or to neighbouring India to escape the conflict.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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## acetophenol

*Unibuffel apc*

The Unibuffel is a mine-protected wheeled APC used by the Sri Lankan military.
Although similar to the South African Buffel, it is built entirely by the Sri Lanka Electrical and Mechanical Engineers (SLEME). Used very often by the Sri Lankan forces both as an armoured fighting vehicle and for protection against mines and IEDs and so played a major role in the Sri Lanka civil war. The Unibuffel is the improved version of the Unicorn which was also built by the SLEME. More than 53 Unibuffels had been manufactured as of 2006.* The vehicle is powered by a TATA engine which can deal easily with rough terrain[2].*


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## tjpf

Bossman said:


> If Omanese were of mongoloid race, you are right. They are Nepalese, who lost a lot of men becuase of failure of the INSAS in fighting with the Moaist.


 
see we are going places but what abot u guys..... whats the stats of ur programs......u can badmouth black indians but the truth is tat each of the southindian states have more on their own better GDP, LAW AND ORDER, CULTURE than pak can ever imagine....sad

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## acetophenol

iran special forces pulsar:


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## PoKeMon

Bossman said:


> Perception is reality. Your position is indefensible. If LCA was so good why buy MRCA, if Arjun was so good why buy T90 the list goes on and on and on


 
Let me ask you.

Suppose a nation has zero aircraft industry and it wants to step in the field. What you say will 

> it directly produce an equivalent to F22 or it would be better to try for a mig 27 equivalent??
> If you learn something new(not copying), will there be some failures or not??
> while you are incapable of manufacturing something really good, wont you purchase some better ones to keep minimum deterrence for the time being??

Nobody here claims the indeginous indian products are world class but we have to start from somewhere and gradually look for betterment. Isn't it chinese arms were categorised third class earlier when they started to build up their industry?
We are on the same path and we will reach to the heights. Dont discourage a nation trying to stand on its feet. It shows your character.


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## acetophenol

kora class corvette:

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## nForce

Bossman said:


> Defence: Strategic plans, tech snags
> Sunday April 20 2008 11:24 IST
> 
> Manoj K. Das
> 
> 
> KOCHI: The Indian Air Force has a serious problem with the lightness of the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), the country&#8217;s flagship indigenous aviation programme.
> 
> A list of issues has recently been raised by the IAF about the project, already flying through a bad patch of technological factors and time and cost overruns.
> 
> Engine-related issues continue to plague the project and the Air Force is not happy with the thrust values generated by the new GE404 engine powering the aircraft.
> 
> In fact, one factor that threw the project out of gear was the delay in developing the Kaveri engines.With no option in sight, HAL decided to go ahead with the developmental trials with the GE 404 till an indigenous engine was ready.
> 
> The IAF experts now say that the thrust generated by the GE404 is not adequate for all the manoeuvres expected of the LCA,which will be replacing the ageing MiG 21 fleet.
> 
> &#8220;It&#8217;s no longer light. The aircraft was supposed to weigh only 8,000 kg after all the changes effected on it. But today it has put on another 2,000 kg and weighs 10,000 kg. And it is but natural that the engine is unable to support it to the maximum,&#8221; IAF sources told this website&#8217;s newspaper.
> 
> This leaves HAL in a dilemma. The builder now has to either subject the aircraft to some design planning with a view to reducing the drag or reduce the weight of the aircraft.
> 
> &#8220;There is hardly any flab on its body. We will take a look at the design to reduce drag,&#8221; sources said. But that is easier said than done.
> 
> HAL will have to go in for a design consultancy to fine-tune an already tested aircraft, which will further delay the full-fledged commissioning of the project.
> 
> &#8220;Another solution, and probably the best, will be to use a new engine with better thrust levels. The new engine can be selected with the weight-thrust ratio in mind. This will take care of all manoeuvres expected of the aircraft even if its weight were to go up slightly again,&#8221; sources said.
> 
> The IAF and HAL have formed a committee to look into the issues, including the selection of a new engine. A high-level meeting is scheduled this month end to finalise the action plan.
> 
> &#8220;But HAL will build 20 LCA-Tejas aircraft for the IAF as planned. This squadron will be inducted and the base is getting ready at Sulur in Tamil Nadu,&#8221; sources said.
> 
> News article


 

The HAL is putting more powerful General Electric F414-GE-INS6 engine,the same engine that powers the American F/A-18 Super hornets in the Mark-2 variant of Tejas and not the F404.Apart from that SNECMA is assisting in the development of GTRE GTX-35VS Kaveri.So,a few years down the line,with the experience gained from Kaveri development,the DRDO will attain self sufficiency in engines as well.
The process of development is comparable to the Chinese WS-10A.
The report that you are quoting is about 3 years old..Quote some current news,credibility decreases with the passage of time.


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## acetophenol

@bossman:

*open another thread for pakistan's successes*. india's failures is not paikistan's victories.

---------- Post added at 11:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:07 AM ----------

khukri class corvette:

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## Bossman

IND_PAK said:


> Let me ask you.
> 
> Suppose a nation has zero aircraft industry and it wants to step in the field. What you say will
> 
> > it directly produce an equivalent to F22 or it would be better to try for a mig 27 equivalent??
> > If you learn something new(not copying), will there be some failures or not??
> > while you are incapable of manufacturing something really good, wont you purchase some better ones to keep minimum deterrence for the time being??
> 
> Nobody here claims the indeginous indian products are world class but we have to start from somewhere and gradually look for betterment. Isn't it chinese arms were categorised third class earlier when they started to build up their industry?
> We are on the same path and we will reach to the heights. Dont discourage a nation trying to stand on its feet. It shows your character.


 
The problem with India is that it has an aircraft industry since the 1940s. All hot air and tall claims and no substance.


----------



## tjpf

IND_PAK said:


> Let me ask you.
> 
> Suppose a nation has zero aircraft industry and it wants to step in the field. What you say will
> 
> > it directly produce an equivalent to F22 or it would be better to try for a mig 27 equivalent??
> > If you learn something new(not copying), will there be some failures or not??
> > while you are incapable of manufacturing something really good, wont you purchase some better ones to keep minimum deterrence for the time being??
> 
> Nobody here claims the indeginous indian products are world class but we have to start from somewhere and gradually look for betterment. Isn't it chinese arms were categorised third class earlier when they started to build up their industry?
> We are on the same path and we will reach to the heights. Dont discourage a nation trying to stand on its feet. It shows your character.


 
by the way read somewhere tat chinese stealth tech is based on the US fighter tat was brought down in serbia/bosnia....not sure which place...and also americans fear of their stealth heli being copied by china during OBL raid....the people whom u chest thump of JV's copy others tech....shame


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## tjpf

Bossman said:


> The problem with India is that it has an aircraft industry since the 1940s. All hot air and tall claims and no substance.


 
we are woking on it...wat about ur crap.......


----------



## Bossman

acetophenol said:


> iran special forces pulsar:


 
Don't look like special forces to me. Some sort of local police force and what's the point - motorcyle is not a weapon


----------



## nForce

Santro said:


> You wonder why with the local IJT the IAF chose to go after the hawk.....


 
Why?? Please explain..


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## acetophenol

Bossman said:


> Don't look like special forces to me. Some sort of local police force and what's the point - motorcyle is not a weapon


 
its made in india!


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## tjpf

Bossman said:


> Don't look like special forces to me. Some sort of local police force and what's the point - motorcyle is not a weapon


who cares the thing is they are riding indian bikes.....honto


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## Bossman

tjpf said:


> we are woking on it...wat about ur crap.......


 
We are just getting our aviation industry and it seem to be more effective and providing greater bang for the buck. Our basic training requirements are all met domestically, can't say that for India. Our JV for basic/advanced is meeting our trainer requirements and is also a global success with nearly 400 planes sold, can't say that for India. PAC gets 25% of the profit on all K8s sold internationally. Now our MR fighter is rapidly replacing our old fighters, can't say that for India.


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## acetophenol

Car Nicobar class fast attack craft:

The Car Nicobar class of fast attack crafts are being built at Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers (GRSE) for the Indian Navy. The ships are intended as a cost-effective platform for patrol and rescue operations in India's Exclusive Economic Zone. The vessels are the first water-jet propelled vessels of the Indian Navy.[2]
The class and its vessels are named for Indian islands.

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## tjpf

Bossman said:


> We are just getting our aviation industry and it seem to be more effective and providing greater bang for the buck.


 
as i said perception


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## acetophenol

*Trinkat class patrol vessel*

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## acetophenol

*Bangaram class patrol vessel*

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## Bossman

tjpf said:


> who cares the thing is they are riding indian bikes.....honto


 
So what's the big deal, Pakistan exports 100 of thousands of motorcylces each year


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## Bossman

tjpf said:


> by the way read somewhere tat chinese stealth tech is based on the US fighter tat was brought down in serbia/bosnia....not sure which place...and also americans fear of their stealth heli being copied by china during OBL raid....the people whom u chest thump of JV's copy others tech....shame


 
I think this is the smart way of doing things, instead of trying to reinvent the wheel every time as it starts a project. Something really wrong with the national psychye.


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## PoKeMon

tjpf said:


> he people *whom u chest thump* of JV's copy others tech....shame


 
Have you read my post 

I chest thump of JV with china??? When did India have it with china???


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## acetophenol

*Shardul class landing ship
*




Class overview
Name:	Shardul class
Builders:	Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers
Operators: Indian Navy
Preceded by:	Magar class
Completed:	3
Active:	3
General characteristics
Type:	Tank landing ship
Displacement:	5,650 tons
Length:	125 m
Beam:	17.5 m
Draft:	4 m
Propulsion:	Kirloskar PA6 STC engines
Speed:	16 knots
Capacity:	11 MBT, 10 armored vehicles
465.8 m³ water, 1,292.6 m³ diesel fuel
Troops:	500
Complement:	11 officers, 145 sailors
Electronic warfare
and decoys:	Decoy: Chaff launchers
Armament:	2 x WM-18 rocket launchers
4 x CRN-91 AA (Naval 30mm Medak) guns, MANPAD's.
Aircraft carried:	1 Sea King/HAL Dhruv

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## tjpf

Bossman said:


> So what's the big deal, Pakistan exports 100 of thousands of motorcylces each year



quality baby.... and regarding armed forces many in india have no idea wat happens coz armed force here is for security purpose unlike ur country which is there to save pak from extinction......sorry tat was mean.......but the truth is with the money we have india can leave pak behind in da dust BUT OUR POLICY OF NO ARMS RACE HAS ENABLED OUR ARMED FORCES TO HAVE A WIDE EDGE RATHER THAN TOTAL SUPERIORITY


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## acetophenol

Bossman said:


> So what's the big deal, Pakistan exports 100 of thousands of motorcylces each year



pls post the details of the type of motor cycles,to which countries are they exported etc


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## tjpf

IND_PAK said:


> Have you read my post
> 
> I chest thump of JV with china??? When did India have it with china???


 oops my bad wrong person...


----------



## Skull and Bones

Bossman said:


> So what's the big deal, Pakistan exports 100 of thousands of motorcylces each year


 
Lol, that was funny.


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## tjpf

Bossman said:


> I think this is the smart way of doing things, instead of trying to reinvent the wheel every time as it starts a project. Something really wrong with the national psychye.


 
during war instead of relying on others it would be better to rely on our own wheel than others....remember US restriction to both INDIA and PAK....besides to develop 'wheel' based on our req is more imp than a generalised 'wheel'


----------



## PoKeMon

Bossman said:


> The problem with India is that it has an aircraft industry since the 1940s. All hot air and tall claims and no substance.


 
Aircraft industry of a poor/developing nation really matters??? India recently sees an economic boom where we can really invest in making fighters.
So we are in nascent stage in real sense. We are different to pakistan where ppl can feed on grass to make nuclear bomb.

You looks to be on a mission. Instead of answering genuine questions and debating logically you are focussing on derailing the thread.
Best of luck. Keep it up.
I rest my case.

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## Bossman

tjpf said:


> quality baby.... and regarding armed forces many in india have no idea wat happens coz armed force here is for security purpose unlike ur country which is there to save pak from extinction......sorry tat was mean.......but the truth is with the money we have india can leave pak behind in da dust BUT OUR POLICY OF NO ARMS RACE HAS ENABLED OUR ARMED FORCES TO HAVE A WIDE EDGE RATHER THAN TOTAL SUPERIORITY



We have always taken on a bigger country, we know you have qualitative and quantitative edge, your economy is 7 to 10 times bigger than us but still you cannot intimidate us or even take us on so what use if your superiority.


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## acetophenol

*Brahmaputra class frigate*


----------



## Lord Of Gondor

When will the rest of the Kamorta class ASW Corvettes be completed?!What kind of SAM systems are on board it?


----------



## King123

Bossman said:


> So what's the big deal, Pakistan exports 100 of thousands of motorcylces each year


 
That's the most finniest line i saw on this week-end. Pakistan stands no where in 2 wheeler segment. Nothing special to mention.


----------



## acetophenol

Bossman said:


> We have always taken on a bigger country, we know you have qualitative and quantitative edge, your economy is 7 to 10 times bigger than us but still you cannot intimidate us or even take us on so what use if your superiority.



please post the details of your bike exports.


----------



## King123

Bossman said:


> We have always taken on a bigger country, we know you have qualitative and quantitative edge, your economy is 7 to 10 times bigger than us but still you cannot intimidate us or even take us on so what use if your superiority.


 
Our Defence is for Defence not for intimidate Pakistan. our Main Priority is economy where anyone can feel the buzz and big difference.


----------



## blackops

acetophenol said:


> please post the details of your bike exports.


 
Do you really think he will post it lol


----------



## acetophenol

Bharadwaj said:


> When will the rest of the Kamorta class ASW Corvettes be completed?!What kind of SAM systems are on board it?



most probably 2012.
we will be having barak sam in it.


----------



## Bossman

IND_PAK said:


> Aircraft industry of a poor/developing nation really matters??? India recently sees an economic boom where we can really invest in making fighters.
> So we are in nascent stage in real sense. We are different to pakistan where ppl can feed on grass to make nuclear bomb.
> 
> You looks to be on a mission. Instead of answering genuine questions and debating logically you are focussing on derailing the thread.
> Best of luck. Keep it up.
> I rest my case.


 
Don't be too proud of your wealth. India was always richer, but it did not stop it being invaded and ruled by poor barbarian turks, afghans, persians or mongols for a 1000 years. Infact the richer you get, you will become a more attractive target and also loose your willingness to fight. During the stand-off after the Parliment attack your businessmen were lobbying your government to back off as the standoff was bad for thier business. We have nothing to loose so we are always ready to fight.


----------



## acetophenol

blackops said:


> Do you really think he will post it lol


 
ha ha!


----------



## Paan Singh

Bossman said:


> We have always taken on a bigger country, we know you have qualitative and quantitative edge, your economy is 7 to 10 times bigger than us but still *you cannot intimidate us or even take us on so what use if your superiority*.


 
we can do every thing..without firing bullet..without sending any fighter
and u know better......

btw..a lot of pakistani think tanks were saying that india behind mehran attack


----------



## tjpf

Bossman said:


> We have always taken on a bigger country, we know you have qualitative and quantitative edge, your economy is 7 to 10 times bigger than us but still you cannot intimidate us or even take us on so what use if your superiority.


 
tat is wat im saying we dont want to get into the mud and fight with u for some religious belief u have......our economy is way better and as for as defence is concerned OUR POLICY OF NO ARMS RACE HAS ENABLED OUR ARMED FORCES TO HAVE A WIDE EDGE RATHER THAN TOTAL SUPERIORITY....by the way which other bigger country other than india??????????


----------



## acetophenol

*Magar class landing ship*







Type:	Amphibious warfare vessel
Displacement:	5,665 tons (full load)[1]
Length:	120 m
Beam:	17.5 m
Draft:	4 m
Ramps:	Bow doors
Propulsion:	2 x 8560 hp sustained diesel engine
Speed:	15 knots
Range:	3000 miles @ 14 knots
Boats and landing
craft carried:	4 LCVPs
Capacity:	15 Tanks, 8 APCs
Troops:	500
Complement:	136 (incl. 16 officers)
Sensors and
processing systems:	1 BEL 1245 navigation radar
Electronic warfare
and decoys:	BEL Ajanta as intercept
Armament:	4 x Bofors 40mm/60 guns,
2 x 122mm multiple-barrel rocket launchers
Aircraft carried:	1 Sea King
Aviation facilities:	2 helicopter platforms


----------



## tjpf

Bossman said:


> Don't be too proud of your wealth. India was always richer, but it did not stop it being invaded and ruled by poor barbarian turks, afghans, persians or mongols for a 1000 years. Infact the richer you get, you will become a more attractive target and also loose your willingness to fight. During the stand-off after the Parliment attack your businessmen were lobbying your government to back off as the standoff was bad for thier business. We have nothing to loose so we are always ready to fight.


 *
We have nothing to loose so we are always ready to fight.*
dont u think tat is bad for u and ur country......... man compete with us based on economy not militarily....u guys dont like life tat was given by ur god?????


----------



## King123

Bossman said:


> Don't be too proud of your wealth. India was always richer, but it did not stop it being invaded and ruled by poor barbarian turks, afghans, persians or mongols for a 1000 years. Infact the richer you get, you will become a more attractive target and also loose your willingness to fight. During the stand-off after the Parliment attack your businessmen were lobbying your government to back off as the standoff was bad for thier business. We have nothing to loose so we are always ready to fight.


 
Forget about India. First prove your claim that Pakistan exports 100 of thousands of motorcylces each year. I searched and found Pakistan 2 wheeler are very normal and low category and Imports mostly for better Bikes.


----------



## notsuperstitious

Ok now this thread is veering into the weird, namely 1000 year enslavement of indians (meaning- enslavement of all of pakistan by turks, mongols and arabs resulting in a permanent loss of culture, heritage and identity).

We should now truly stop feeding the zero test failures guy and contniue the good work. Expect more burning smell too, I hope we have some indigenoue masks for that!

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## Bossman

King123 said:


> That's the most finniest line i saw on this week-end. Pakistan stands no where in 2 wheeler segment. Nothing special to mention.


 
Ignorance will not change facts. In Pakistan, other than 4 big Japanese brands two wheelers is a cottage industry which procure all their part including engines from the same domestic vendors. Other than the major Japanese brands there are nearly 40 domestic brands selling pretty much identical motor cycles. So the business model is very different from that of India.


----------



## Gandhi G in da house

Bossman said:


> We have always taken on a bigger country, we know you have qualitative and quantitative edge, your economy is 7 to 10 times bigger than us but still you cannot intimidate us or even take us on so what use if your superiority.


 
After reducing you to half in 1971 and retaining Kashmir after your efforts in 65 and 99 for 63 years in whole , What more do we need to do ?

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## acetophenol

*Aditya class tanker
*

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## Bossman

fateh71 said:


> Ok now this thread is veering into the weird, namely 1000 year enslavement of indians (meaning- enslavement of all of pakistan by turks, mongols and arabs resulting in a permanent loss of culture, heritage and identity).
> 
> We should now truly stop feeding the zero test failures guy!



Well I am just sharing Indian view of history. Don't worry about our identity it is stronger than yours.


----------



## acetophenol

Bossman said:


> Ignorance will not change facts. In Pakistan, other than 4 big Japanese brands two wheelers is a cottage industry which procure all their part including engines from the same domestic vendors. Other than the major Japanese brands there are nearly 40 domestic brands selling pretty much identical motor cycles. So the business model is very different from that of India.


 

the info on pakistan bike exports..............?


----------



## PoKeMon

Bossman said:


> We have nothing to loose so we are always ready to fight.


 
*And when some indians says the same that you have nothing you get charged up.*
Also you accept that we have a lot to save.

Epic facepalm.

God/allah/bhagwan save us and the world from your type of war mongers. Hope your type is in minority in pakistan.


----------



## tjpf

Bossman said:


> Well I am just sharing Indian view of history. Don't worry about our identity it is stronger than yours.


but u guys gave in and got converted into muslim......shame.....


----------



## King123

Bossman said:


> Ignorance will not change facts. In Pakistan, other than 4 big Japanese brands two wheelers is a cottage industry which procure all their part including engines from the same domestic vendors. Other than the major Japanese brands there are nearly 40 domestic brands selling pretty much identical motor cycles. So the business model is very different from that of India.


 

Why changing topic ? India is in Top 5 Nations in Vehicles. Pakistan is not even 5% of India as per Industry. First prove your claim. Don't make false statement.


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## acetophenol

*Bhim*


----------



## acetophenol

royal enfield bullet:


----------



## tjpf

King123 said:


> Why changing topic ? India is in Top 5 Nations in Vehicles. Pakistan is not even 5% of India as per Industry. First prove your claim. Don't make false statement.


 
guys fellow indians post india"s Indengious Weapons Capability achievement...i think we had enough with bossman and pak.... as far as bossman talk to the hands


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## acetophenol

*windy 505*:






note the milan atgms


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## acetophenol

*maruti suzuki gypsi*:


----------



## Nelson

Bossman said:


> Ignorance will not change facts. In Pakistan, other than 4 big Japanese brands two wheelers is a cottage industry which procure all their part including engines from the same domestic vendors. Other than the major Japanese brands there are nearly 40 domestic brands selling pretty much identical motor cycles. So* the business model is very different from that of India*.


 
correct, Indian business is very big, successfull and profit making. So it has to be different.

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## acetophenol

*Mahindra MM550XD*


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## Bossman

nick_indian said:


> After reducing you to half in 1971 and retaining Kashmir after your efforts in 65 and 99 for 63 years in whole , What more do we need to do ?


 
We took half of Kashmir in 47. You overrate 99, the skirmish was fought on your land, u lost more people than us, u were running like headless chicken on finding a very small bunch of irregulars on your land, your lost 4 aircrafts and we are still sitting on your land. You couldn't do anything after the Parliment attack despite all the hot air, couldn't do anything after Mumbai. As far as 71 is concerned just look at the fate of the 3 key personalities who were the key actors Indira Gandhi, Mujib and Bhutto. Not only they died miserable deaths, all their progeny died miserable deaths. Bangladesh of today is more of a threat to India than East Pakistan ever was. It is more Islamic, more militant and more dangerous. As far as Pakistan is concerned, we are a nuclear power, we are unstable and if one goes by western media the most dangerous country in the world and all that because of Indian attitude towards it since 47. If you had settled Kashmir after independence Pakistan would never have invested so much in our military, if you didn't do what you did in 71 we would not have gone for the nuclear option. So in other words, the world can thank India for making Pakistan a dangerous country and significant threat to yourselves. So my dears you have paid a very big price, you are still paying it and will continue to pay. The end game will not be pretty.


----------



## acetophenol

*Dornier Do 228*

Approximately 270 Do 228 were built at Oberpfaffenhofen, Germany and Kanpur, India. In August 2006, 127 Dornier Do 228 aircraft (all variants) remain in airline service.


----------



## Nelson

acetophenol said:


> royal enfield bullet:


 
I love this !!

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## tjpf

Bossman said:


> Ignorance will not change facts. In Pakistan, other than 4 big Japanese brands two wheelers is a cottage industry which procure all their part including engines from the same domestic vendors.* Other than the major Japanese brands there are nearly 40 domestic brands selling pretty much identical motor cycles.* So the business model is very different from that of India.


 
god no wonder even god cannot save pak...how dumb can u be...40 brands!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Skull and Bones

acetophenol said:


> *maruti suzuki gypsi*:


 
When i was a kid, i loved this car. Amazing off-roader.


----------



## acetophenol

Bossman said:


> We took half of Kashmir in 47. You overrate 99, the skirmish was fought on your land, u lost more people than our, u were running like headless chicken on finding a bunch of irregulars on your land, your lost 4 aircrafts and we are still sitting on your land. You couldn't do anything after the Parliment attack despite all the hot air, couldn't do anything after Mumbai. As far as 71 is concerned just look at the fate of the 3 key personalities who were the key actor Indira Gandhi, Mujib and Bhutto. Not only they died a miserable death, their progeny died miserable deaths. Bangladesh of today is more of a threat to India than East Pakistan ever was. It is more Islamic, more militant and more dangerous. As far as Pakistan is concerned, we are a nuclear power, we are unstable and if one goes by western media the most dangerous country in the world and all that because of Indian attitude towards it since 47. If you had settled Kashmir after independence Pakistan would never have invested so much in our military, if you didn't do what you did in 71 we would not have gone for the nuclear option. So in other words, the world can thank India for making Pakistan a dangerous country and significant threat to yourselves.


 
boosmann,
details on pakistan's bike exports?


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## acetophenol

*Pinaka Multi Barrel Rocket Launcher*


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## Nelson

acetophenol said:


> boosmann,
> details on pakistan's bike exports?


 
USA asked him not to provide any details of bike exports... its very big you see..


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## acetophenol

it is not used by the army,
but still,
*
Ashani*


----------



## PoKeMon

acetophenol said:


> boosmann,
> details on pakistan's bike exports?


 
oye chote, bacche ki jaan lega kya??


----------



## acetophenol

Nelson said:


> USA asked him not to provide any details of bike exports... its very big you see..


 sshhhh!
the list of the countries is so big,so that this site's band width can't afford it!


----------



## Skull and Bones

acetophenol said:


> boosmann,
> details on pakistan's bike exports?


 
He can't, no one is interested in 75cc bikes. Even Hercules and Hero cycles look cooler than their bikes.

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## acetophenol

*IOF .32 Revolver*


----------



## Skull and Bones

acetophenol said:


> it is not used by the army,
> but still,
> *
> Ashani*


 
This is for civilians, Chotu.


----------



## Nelson

Skull and Bones said:


> He can't, no one is interested in 75cc bikes. Even Hercules and Hero cycles look cooler than their bikes.


 
 :rof:


----------



## PoKeMon

Bossman said:


> We took half of Kashmir in 47. You overrate 99, the skirmish was fought on your land, u lost more people than us, u were running like headless chicken on finding a very small bunch of irregulars on your land, your lost 4 aircrafts and we are still sitting on your land. You couldn't do anything after the Parliment attack despite all the hot air, couldn't do anything after Mumbai. As far as 71 is concerned just look at the fate of the 3 key personalities who were the key actors Indira Gandhi, Mujib and Bhutto. Not only they died miserable deaths, all their progeny died miserable deaths. Bangladesh of today is more of a threat to India than East Pakistan ever was. It is more Islamic, more militant and more dangerous. As far as Pakistan is concerned, we are a nuclear power, we are unstable and if one goes by western media the most dangerous country in the world and all that because of Indian attitude towards it since 47. If you had settled Kashmir after independence Pakistan would never have invested so much in our military, if you didn't do what you did in 71 we would not have gone for the nuclear option. So in other words, the world can thank India for making Pakistan a dangerous country and significant threat to yourselves. So my dears you have paid a very big price, you are still paying it and will continue to pay. The end game will not be pretty.


 
Are you planning to join taliban, al queda or lashkar? There are lot of vacancies out there now a days.
Your post giving me a sense that you are a great admirer of zia's idea of bleeding india by 1000 cuts. You are happy if you make us loose 1 men even if it cost you a nation named Pakistan.


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## acetophenol

IND_PAK said:


> oye chote, bacche ki jaan lega kya??


 


Skull and Bones said:


> He can't, no one is interested in 75cc bikes. Even Hercules and Hero cycles look cooler than their bikes.


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## SR 71 Blackbird

Skull and Bones said:


> He can't, no one is interested in 75cc bikes. Even Hercules and Hero cycles look cooler than their bikes.



Their bikes are as good as 10 year old TVS Scooter.


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## acetophenol

Skull and Bones said:


> This is for civilians, Chotu.


i know that bada bhai!


----------



## acetophenol

*shivalik multimode grenade*


----------



## SR 71 Blackbird

Shivalik Multi Mode Grenade.

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## acetophenol

i want details on pak bike exports!!!!!!!

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## Bossman

tjpf said:


> god no wonder even god cannot save pak...how dumb can u be...40 brands!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


 
Infact they are 60, as I said other than the 4 big brands it is cottage industry

Local motorcycle sector witnesses tremendous growth in a decade

By Yasir Ameen
January 28, 2011

Pakistan&#8217;s local industries have always been a challenging time to produce its made-ups at level playing field to meet the domestic demands and exporting countries alike. At local level, the high cost of production, low returns and dampening domestic demand are the major concern to develop any industry indigenously despite compatible product quality as per international standard, resulting foreign market players always rule in the market and local players are witnessed struggling. 

In the case of Pakistan auto industry, the situation is totally different and encouraging as motorcycle sector has developed itself as established and expanding by leaps and bound, the foreign brands have been facing tough time amid stiff competition. 

The motorcycle sales have now reached 150,000 units per months in the country where 60 assemblers share their business amid tough competition within themselves and with Japanese models as well, the statistics of All Pakistan Motorcycle Assemblers (APMA) reported. 

The annual production of these assemblers have increased to 1,387,000 units by 2009-10 as compared with 119,169 units prepared and sold by 2000-01, showing a colossal growth of 1064 percent in nine fiscal years. 

*The sales of the production units have attained more than 90 percent level in the local market, however, rest of the motorbikes are exported. *

In 2000-01, the three Japanese motorcycle brands had retained their more than 90 percent share in the market with 108,850 units out of total 119,169 units, whereas the local assemblers produced merely 10,319 units in the same year. 

In 2009-10, the local bike marker have attained 56 percent share with 764,634 units and Japanese assemblers could maintain 44 percent share with 622,366 units. 

The assemblers produce three models including the most selling CD-70, CD-100 and CG-125. The competition has been witnessed immensely stiff among the assemblers, which reflects the long stability in the prices after constant price fall of motorbikes in the past couple of years. 

In the local markets, the model CD-70 is very much hit as its sales has been the highest among the all models of different brands. It is available from Rs 39,000 to Rs 42,000 in local markets which are made by local assemblers. 

The model CD-100 bikes prices ranging from Rs Rs 44,000 to Rs 54,000 whereas 125 models&#8217; prices of different assemblers are tagged between Rs 54,000 to Rs 57,000. These two brands are made by few assemblers. 

Overall, there are eight thousand registered dealers in the country whereas they are many others non-registered also. These dealers have played a vital role to increase the sales of the motorbikes in the city with leasing scheme of lowest mark-up rates. 

Japanese brands have retained their popularity in the market particularly among the brand conscious consumers. Their sales have been risen despite they have increased prices of their products. 

* Exporters said Pakistan has potential to exports its made-up to South African and some Asian countries which could soar exports&#8217; revenue manifold within a year. Currently, the exports of bike are being done to Afghanistan, Somalia, Sri Lanka, and Bangladesh on regular basis. *

*&#8220;We were exporting locally made 70cc motorcycles in $350-400 per unit which is quite unaffordable and becoming unviable for us on the rising cost of doing business in last few months,&#8221; Sabir Sheikh chairman APMA said. *

Definitely, likewise other businesses the hike in electricity tariff, surge in petroleum products, and rising import cost following depreciating rupee against dollar has hurt their businesses locally and at exports level also. Moreover, the competition is still there in the potential markets heated up by China and India. 

These factors have enabled them to carry on exports to meet growing number orders to the buying countries particularly owing to increase in business cost. 

However, the sales have been picked up at present following the flood-affected were awarded assistance through Watan Card and NGO&#8217;s scheme. The upward sales trend will likely to continue till the end of fiscal year, however, the market could be saturated in the next couple of years as the number of buyers constantly reduces gradually.


----------



## tjpf

Bossman said:


> Infact they are 60, as I said other than the 4 big brands it is cottage industry
> 
> Local motorcycle sector witnesses tremendous growth in a decade
> 
> By Yasir Ameen
> January 28, 2011
> 
> Pakistan&#8217;s local industries have always been a challenging time to produce its made-ups at level playing field to meet the domestic demands and exporting countries alike. At local level, the high cost of production, low returns and dampening domestic demand are the major concern to develop any industry indigenously despite compatible product quality as per international standard, resulting foreign market players always rule in the market and local players are witnessed struggling.
> 
> In the case of Pakistan auto industry, the situation is totally different and encouraging as motorcycle sector has developed itself as established and expanding by leaps and bound, the foreign brands have been facing tough time amid stiff competition.
> 
> The motorcycle sales have now reached 150,000 units per months in the country where 60 assemblers share their business amid tough competition within themselves and with Japanese models as well, the statistics of All Pakistan Motorcycle Assemblers (APMA) reported.
> 
> The annual production of these assemblers have increased to 1,387,000 units by 2009-10 as compared with 119,169 units prepared and sold by 2000-01, showing a colossal growth of 1064 percent in nine fiscal years.
> 
> *The sales of the production units have attained more than 90 percent level in the local market, however, rest of the motorbikes are exported. *
> 
> In 2000-01, the three Japanese motorcycle brands had retained their more than 90 percent share in the market with 108,850 units out of total 119,169 units, whereas the local assemblers produced merely 10,319 units in the same year.
> 
> In 2009-10, the local bike marker have attained 56 percent share with 764,634 units and Japanese assemblers could maintain 44 percent share with 622,366 units.
> 
> The assemblers produce three models including the most selling CD-70, CD-100 and CG-125. The competition has been witnessed immensely stiff among the assemblers, which reflects the long stability in the prices after constant price fall of motorbikes in the past couple of years.
> 
> In the local markets, the model CD-70 is very much hit as its sales has been the highest among the all models of different brands. It is available from Rs 39,000 to Rs 42,000 in local markets which are made by local assemblers.
> 
> The model CD-100 bikes prices ranging from Rs Rs 44,000 to Rs 54,000 whereas 125 models&#8217; prices of different assemblers are tagged between Rs 54,000 to Rs 57,000. These two brands are made by few assemblers.
> 
> Overall, there are eight thousand registered dealers in the country whereas they are many others non-registered also. These dealers have played a vital role to increase the sales of the motorbikes in the city with leasing scheme of lowest mark-up rates.
> 
> Japanese brands have retained their popularity in the market particularly among the brand conscious consumers. Their sales have been risen despite they have increased prices of their products.
> 
> * Exporters said Pakistan has potential to exports its made-up to South African and some Asian countries which could soar exports&#8217; revenue manifold within a year. Currently, the exports of bike are being done to Afghanistan, Somalia, Sri Lanka, and Bangladesh on regular basis. *
> 
> *&#8220;We were exporting locally made 70cc motorcycles in $350-400 per unit which is quite unaffordable and becoming unviable for us on the rising cost of doing business in last few months,&#8221; Sabir Sheikh chairman APMA said. *
> 
> Definitely, likewise other businesses the hike in electricity tariff, surge in petroleum products, and rising import cost following depreciating rupee against dollar has hurt their businesses locally and at exports level also. Moreover, the competition is still there in the potential markets heated up by China and India.
> 
> These factors have enabled them to carry on exports to meet growing number orders to the buying countries particularly owing to increase in business cost.
> 
> However, the sales have been picked up at present following the flood-affected were awarded assistance through Watan Card and NGO&#8217;s scheme. The upward sales trend will likely to continue till the end of fiscal year, however, the market could be saturated in the next couple of years as the number of buyers constantly reduces gradually.


 

dude startin to like u man......took all this while to google tat detail.....here is a deal send in some sample of those bike will see if its good we will buy em.....in tat way ur economy will grow......"do good and never expect the fruit" ,man im good


----------



## King123

70 CC ??  Is it like Luna ?


----------



## acetophenol

can someone post some pak bike pics?


----------



## King123



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## Bossman

For starters

P A K H E R O :

Super Asia Bikes

Memon Motor (Pvt) Ltd ----- Super Star Motorcycle & Rikshow Manufacturer

>> Welcome To Atlas Honda Ltd. Website >>

Ravi Motorcycles - Home

DYL Motorcycles - Welcome

motorcycle assembler manufacturer

Habib Group of Companies | Habib Motorcycles Ltd.

Welcome to Metro Group of Companies

Home


----------



## Ghoster

Well another pathetic pakistani loser.

What else can they do other than showing old Indian failures?

They donot have a single success to highlight

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## notsuperstitious

Why are we destroying this thread with rubbish??? Liquid had done such a good job and all of you are just contributing to one zero test failure guy's quest to destroy the thread? If we are going to make it article for article thread over the last decade, then its useless, anyone can post articles and opinions, there are thousands of them out there. Thats not how you debate or even make a point. Thats how you troll.

Such idiocy all around!

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## King123

Bossman said:


> For starters
> 
> P A K H E R O :
> 
> Super Asia Bikes
> 
> Memon Motor (Pvt) Ltd ----- Super Star Motorcycle & Rikshow Manufacturer
> 
> >> Welcome To Atlas Honda Ltd. Website >>
> 
> Ravi Motorcycles - Home
> 
> DYL Motorcycles - Welcome
> 
> motorcycle assembler manufacturer
> 
> Habib Group of Companies | Habib Motorcycles Ltd.
> 
> Welcome to Metro Group of Companies
> 
> Home


 

These are the bikes which i used to ride when i was Kid. It's like Luna in India. They are more like 80's and 90's bike. Time for


----------



## nForce

Bossman said:


> For starters
> 
> P A K H E R O :
> 
> Super Asia Bikes
> 
> Memon Motor (Pvt) Ltd ----- Super Star Motorcycle & Rikshow Manufacturer
> 
> >> Welcome To Atlas Honda Ltd. Website >>
> 
> Ravi Motorcycles - Home
> 
> DYL Motorcycles - Welcome
> 
> motorcycle assembler manufacturer
> 
> Habib Group of Companies | Habib Motorcycles Ltd.
> 
> Welcome to Metro Group of Companies
> 
> Home


 

A few pictures from the East of Radcliffe

The Pulsar 220(I ride the Fuel injected version of this bike)











Royal Enfield Thunderbird


----------



## acetophenol

tvs apache:


----------



## nForce

Bossman said:


> For starters
> 
> P A K H E R O :
> 
> Super Asia Bikes
> 
> Memon Motor (Pvt) Ltd ----- Super Star Motorcycle & Rikshow Manufacturer
> 
> >> Welcome To Atlas Honda Ltd. Website >>
> 
> Ravi Motorcycles - Home
> 
> DYL Motorcycles - Welcome
> 
> motorcycle assembler manufacturer
> 
> Habib Group of Companies | Habib Motorcycles Ltd.
> 
> Welcome to Metro Group of Companies
> 
> Home


 

Do they manufacture their own products or assemble imported products?


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## acetophenol




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## acetophenol

*CRN 91 Naval Gun*


----------



## Bossman

nForce said:


> Do they manufacture their own products or assemble imported products?


 
Assembled from mostly domestic parts vendors except for Honda and Suzuki which do complete in house manufacturing. 

One of the engine producers

AMTCPDC


----------



## AMCA

Bossman said:


> I am not comparing Indian and Pakistani motorcycle industries only that Pakistan is the 7th largest manufacturer of MBs in the world and also a significant exporter and it was in response to an Indian guys request. Why do you have to prove that yours is bigger. Where it counts it is a proven fact that Indians are less endowed
> 
> World map of The Penis Size Worldwide (country) by Country - TargetMap


 
Who cares what our size is, we have the 2nd largest population with minimum resources that we have....  , but how did you manage to compare this with Motor bike?? On the horse power basis?


----------



## nForce

Bossman said:


> Assembled from domestic parts vendors except for Honda and Suzuki which do complete in house manufacturing.
> 
> One of the engine producers
> 
> AMTCPDC


 

hey thats good.. what kind of engines do they produce??for bikes and cars??Whats the displacement? I think I see a horizontally aligned bike engine in the slideshow.


----------



## nForce

Bossman said:


> I am not comparing Indian and Pakistani motorcycle industries only that Pakistan is the 7th largest manufacturer of MBs in the world and also a significant exporter and it was in response to an Indian guys request. Why do you have to prove that yours is bigger? Where it counts it is a proven fact that Indians are less endowed
> 
> World map of The Penis Size Worldwide (country) by Country - TargetMap


 
I dont know where from and why that came here...It does not have any significance here.That was a really sad attempt of trolling and I was hoping that you are somebody who knows a thing or two about Pakistan and may be capable of a sensible discussion.You are just trying to prove that you are no better than the rest of the lot.


----------



## Bossman

nForce said:


> hey thats good.. what kind of engines do they produce??for bikes and cars??Whats the displacement? I think I see a horizontally aligned bike engine in the slideshow.


 
You can research here: 

http://www.engineeringpakistan.com/EngPak1/newpd.htm

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## nForce

Bossman said:


> You can research here:
> 
> Industry Pakistan


 
thank you for the link.It definitely seems to be an el-dorado of information about industries in Pakistan.Its just that the information is way too brief.I am interested to know about the companies in Pakistan which produce engines for cars,bikes or say,trains,ships etc...Can you provide me any link for those companies?


----------



## acetophenol

*Multi Grenade Launcher 40 mm*


----------



## acetophenol

*nissan jonga*






---------- Post added at 03:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:05 PM ----------

*tata 407*


----------



## acetophenol

*karthik blt*




[/IMG]


----------



## username

Bossman said:


> so who has skinny black a$$es?


 
The are lot of MUSLIMS who are Dravidians also have skinny/plumpy black a$$es.


----------



## Storm Force

Bossman

TAKE YOUR HATRED AWAY

enjoy the growth of largest INDENGIOUS ARMS INDUSTRY IN ASIA bar CHINA.

I AM DELIGHTED that some of india,s indengious weapons have partial israeli french or russian sub systems.


----------



## IND151

Bossman said:


> Pakistan's best friend = Indian domestic defence industry


 
indeed.* but best is mazgaon dock.

*ships built in it visited Pakistan in 1971 cause indians wanted to visit their friends(?). 

this friendly visit was named as* operation trident *by Indian navy.


----------



## zaheer.triple.es23

East or West, Pakistan is the BEST....THE ULTIMATE SUPERPOWER!!


----------



## Bossman

Mission Accomplished


----------



## Paan Singh

Bossman said:


> Mission Accomplished


 
failed!!!!!!!!!!

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## acetophenol

HCL Infosystems -- one of India's premier technology companies -- has won a Rs. 300 crore, Indian Air Force contract to deploy a Wideband CDMA-based portable wireless network.

According to Press Trust of India
The WCDMA network will provide backbone connectivity and ensure video interactivity for video calls, cross connectivity with other communication platform like IP-based communication within the Air Force Network.
The WCDMA network will be integrated with the Air Force Network (AFNET), which was deployed earlier by HCL Infosystems
The 3G network will also have transportable mobile base stations for establishing communication with higher echelons even from remote locations in the country
HCL Infosystems will implement the whole project on turnkey basis


"This being one of the key wins under our Defence System Integration Practice, further highlights the company's vast understanding in various industry verticals"

Reactions: Like Like:
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## acetophenol

SECURE UHF HANDHELD RADIO (LUP 291)

LUP 291 is a UHF handheld radio with inbuilt high grade digital secrecy.The radio set is state-of-the art design, compact and light weight. Interface is provided for Headgear and Crypto key loading.The operator interface is user friendly with minimum number of controls. The radio set is provided with helical and magnetic mount antennas.The radio set has in-built mic and speaker. VOX headgear is also available as optional accessory for hands free operation.








FEATURES

Continuous Tone coded squelch (CTCSS)
RF Power Output : 5 W/1W (selectable)
Various programmable features like Scan, CTCSS frequency selection, Power Save, Password etc.
Inbuilt Powerful Diagnosis feature (BITE)
TX Inhibit (Sulk), Clone, Erase and Whisper facilities
7.2 V Primary & Secondary batteries
Antennas: Helical and magnetic mount
Compliant to MIL 461 EMI specs
Optional accessories : Battery charger, Headgear, Handset, Fillgun/ Programmer etc.
Frequency range 403 - 470 MHz
Channel Spacing 12.5/25 kHz
Built-in high grade Crypto
32 Preset crypto keys +1 manual key
Selective call facility
16 Preset frequencies


----------



## acetophenol

Secure VHF Handheld Radio

VP 333 is a VHF handheld radio with built-in high grade digital secrecy. The radio set is state-of-the art design, compact and light weight. Interface is provided for Headgear and Crypto key loading.The operator interface is user friendly with minimum number of controls with graphic LCD display. The radio set is provided with helical and Tape antennas. The radio set has built-in mic and speaker. VOX headgear is also available as optional accessory for hands free operation.






Features

Frequency range 30 - 88 MHz
Channel Spacing 12.5 / 25 kHz
Built-in high grade digital secrecy
32Preset crypto keys + 1 manual key
Selective call facility
Voice override facility for clear mode
80Preset frequencies
10different programmable CTCSS tones
RF Power Output : 5 W /1 W (selectable)
Various Programmable features like Scan,CTCSS frequency selection, Power Save,Password etc.
Inbuilt Powerful Diagnostic feature (BITE)
Tx Inhibit (Sulk), Clone, Erase and Whisper Facilities
Tx Inhibit (Sulk), Clone, Erase and Whisper Facilities
Antennas: Helical and Tape antenna Compliant to MIL 461 EMI specs
Optional accessories : Battery charger, VOX,Fillgun etc.


----------



## Hulk

Bossman said:


> Mission Accomplished



Yes trolling completed.

You make a seat of helicopter and tell other you have made the helicopter. Epic fail.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## acetophenol

BEL to upgrade Schilka tanks


----------



## acetophenol

*Integrated Laser Cum Night Vision GMD MK II*


Integrated Laser Cum Night Vision, GMD MK II has been designed to measure the distance between banks of Canal and river with an accuracy of ? 1 meter. It can measure minimum distance of 10 m and maximum distance of 1000m.

Features

Simple to Operate 
Built-in Sighting Telescope With 6X Magnification
Meets Military Specifications


----------



## acetophenol

*
Binocular Hand Held Thermal Imager BEBTI-0503*

Bharat Electronics Binocular Thermal Imager BEBTI-0503 is a light weight binocular eyepiece model thermal imager suitable for comfortable viewing and observation by the user. This model replaced the existing monocular eyepiece based thermal imager Observation through dust, fog and through bushes .



Applications

Day & Night patrolling and surveillance
Features

Strain free viewing with binoculars
Battery?Powered
Integral miniature video monitor
External standard video output
Miniature closed cycle cooler
Advanced DDC (Detector Dewar Cooler) module with on chip signal processing
Provision for Inter Pupillary Distance adjustment


----------



## acetophenol

ANGULAR MEASUREMENT DEVICE - AMD 0604

Angular Measurement Device is used by the artillery troops for precise orientation and alignment of artillery guns. It helps in enhancing the accuracy and response time of guns. It basically consists of a Thermal Imager, North finding module, Goniometer, Laser Range Finder and Tripod.









Applications:
For artillery regiments
For survey troops
For forward observers
Features:

GPS interface/ Built in GPS
Software for gun laying and target acquisition.
Mounting on sturdy tripod
Meets environmental specs as perJSS 55555
Rechargeable batteries for all modules
Slow motion spindle for accurate laying
Try brach for fine levelling


----------



## acetophenol




----------



## MrIndianSikh

@ Bossman i really enjoyed reading your comments about India's so called "indigenous blunders" and how "our media" accepts India has shabby pilot training program bad helicopters etc well enough about Indian media lets talk about your media and what they have to say 








and another thing LCA yes it took a long time but we developed 4th generation fighter aircraft technology the point of LCA was to start the aerospace industry in India from LSP-5 is the real deal MK2 of the LCA will be 4.5 gen and be even more capable 

as for Arjun if Arjun is so bad as you claim how come it out preformed the T90 in trials? the Indian army has many corrupt officers/generals who put aside indigenous capable technology and go for outside weaponry because if they pick indigenous weaponry they won't get kickbacks don't even get me started on the Bofors Scandal and the Barak missile scandal


----------



## IBRIS

Bossman said:


> Mission Accomplished


 
You failed, miserably. Kids like you get excited over for ultra base small donors. Do you want a lollypop for your immaturity. If you even had 2 brain cells to spare for the time to check the dates of those articles before posting, you would of had some respect. But you are like a kid who loves attention, doesn't matter if it could harm your own image as a starter. We all know how much of a smarta$$ you are now. You accomplished in only 1 things and that is presenting yourself as a sole loser. Now take that and post an article about it

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Bossman

IBRIS said:


> You failed, miserably. Kids like you get excited over for ultra base small donors. Do you want a lollypop for your immaturity. If you even had 2 brain cells to spare for the time to check the dates of those articles before posting, you would of had some respect. But you are like a kid who loves attention, doesn't matter if it could harm your own image as a starter. We all know how much of a smarta$$ you are now. You accomplished in only 1 things and that is presenting yourself as a sole loser. Now take that and post an article about it


 
Sore looser, I see some hurt feelings.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## paritosh

Bossman said:


> How can you have Indian contribution if your own government says Dhruv is 90 percent imported? Maybe Indian came up with a better way to clean the turbine blades.


 
the 10% was Indian right?
the best contribution Pakistan has ever made to your indigenous weaponry is "the end-user need specification"

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## Laughing_soldier

Bossman said:


> How can you have Indian contribution if your own government says Dhruv is 90 percent imported? Maybe Indian came up with a better way to clean the turbine blades.


 
There are 10% Indian right? But every Pakistani weapons are 100% Chinese! Suddenly come from sky.

With what face you talk about India? Any shame?

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## IBRIS

Bossman said:


> Sore looser, I see some hurt feelings.


 
Ignorance is bliss & you do it just for some attention, have it your way or your well wisher's way. You both are sore losers to begin with.


----------



## Jungibaaz

paritosh said:


> the 10% was Indian right?
> the best contribution Pakistan has ever made to your indigenous weaponry is "the end-user need specification"


 
please don't post such inaudible rants here.
If you would like to know about Pakistani contribution to JF-17, head over to the JF-17 thread, all the info you need is there.


----------



## IBRIS

Jungibaaz said:


> please don't post such inaudible rants here.
> If you would like to know about Pakistani contribution to JF-17, head over to the JF-17 thread, all the info you need is there.


 i went through the whole thread & couldn't find anything that contributes to your claims. Would you be more specific with those contributions that been committed by your air forces towards JF project. Please do enlighten us with some ingenuity facts instead of hear & say bullish.?????????????


----------



## Jungibaaz

IBRIS said:


> i went through the whole thread & couldn't find anything that contributes to your claims. Would you be more specific with those contributions that been committed by your air forces towards JF project. Please do enlighten us with some ingenuity facts instead of hear & say bullish.?????????????


 
Airframe and some avionics!
Using the PAF engineers experience from the F-16, Chinese learned a lot.
This knowledge was put in to the JF-17 project.

obviously you need to read the through the thread again, this time i suggest you open your eyes!


----------



## IBRIS

Jungibaaz said:


> Airframe and some avionics!
> Using the PAF engineers experience from the F-16, Chinese learned a lot.
> This knowledge was put in to the JF-17 project.
> 
> obviously you need to read to through the thread again, this time i suggest you open your eyes!


 couldn't find a damn thing about the cappabilties of what been contributed by your establishment who'd been responsible for the contribution of PAF in it's all hear & say matter which keeps every patron going with so called claimed facts of unnatural matter or dependents of other claims. It's all a gibberish......


----------



## Jungibaaz

IBRIS said:


> couldn't find a damn thing about the cappabilties of what been contributed by your establishment who'd been responsible for the contribution of PAF in it's all hear & say matter which keeps every patron going with so called claimed facts of unnatural matter or dependents of other claims. It's all a gibberish......


 
the systems on board the JF-17 haven't been labelled at all, let alone being able to differentiate between Pakistani and Chinese tech.
The specs you ask for are all added to the airframe and avionics as a whole. To which Pakistani Engineers did a great deal of work on.


----------



## IBRIS

Jungibaaz said:


> the systems on board the JF-17 haven't been labelled at all, let alone being able to differentiate between Pakistani and Chinese tech.
> The specs you ask for are all added to the airframe and avionics as a whole. To which Pakistani Engineers did a great deal of work on.


 
AND WHICH IS?????????????? Please don't take me as a loser because i couldn't find any thing in that matter. would you be specific about it, instead of what been heard by others.


----------



## Hulk

Jungibaaz said:


> Airframe and some avionics!
> Using the *PAF engineers experience from the F-16*, Chinese learned a lot.
> This knowledge was put in to the JF-17 project.
> 
> obviously you need to read the through the thread again, this time i suggest you open your eyes!


 
F-16 is manufactured by USA, which experience you are talking about. To put oil and to tighten the nut bolts?

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Jungibaaz

IBRIS said:


> AND WHICH IS?????????????? Please don't take me as a loser because i couldn't find any thing in that matter. would you be specific about it, instead of what been heard by others.


 
-The Airframe itself was one!!!
-The ECM suite was produced in Karma avionics.
-The HDMS was similar to the one used on the older F-16 blocks


----------



## Jungibaaz

indianrabbit said:


> F-16 is manufactured by USA, which experience you are talking about. To put oil and to tighten the nut bolts?


 
airframe, avionics and on board systems, of the F-16s were used to give an idea as to what systems would be installed on the JF-17.not simply reverse engineered.

And no it doesn't make it the US'
Same could be said about LCA, foreign engine, Mirage airframe, foreign radar.... and yet it is still called indigenous?


----------



## IBRIS

Jungibaaz said:


> -The Airframe itself was one!!!


Air\frame doesn't represnt any replica of any super aerodynamic khoj,


> -The ECM suite was produced in Karma avionics.


What suit are you talking about, really.


> -The HDMS was similar to the one used on the older F-16 blocks


This sounded more like a middle school project than an any super chinese contributed piece of art.


----------



## MrIndianSikh

Jungibaaz said:


> airframe, avionics and on board systems, of the F-16s were used to give an idea as to what systems would be installed on the JF-17.not simply reverse engineered.
> 
> And no it doesn't make it the US'
> Same could be said about LCA, foreign engine, *Mirage airframe, foreign radar.... and yet it is still called indigenous*?


 


FYI LCA's air frame is not based on Mirages air frame let me guess your proof for this is "both are delta wing platforms" ? and the Radar is not foreign its a hybrid MMR made with Israel using Indian inputs 


and let me ask you this what is Pakitans contribution to the JF-17 besides paying for half of the project?


----------



## Bossman

You are here - HomeNewsCity Story 
City

Boss of raided spa returns armed with advance bail
Madhuri Hingorani outsmarts cops waiting to arrest her at airport, seeks permission from police commissioner to reopen her massage parlour

Manjunath L Hanji 

Posted On Sunday, June 05, 2011 at 12:53:53 AM



Bangalore International Airport on Thursday night witnessed heavy drama when socialite Madhuri Hingorani, from whose upscale massage parlour police recently arrested several men and women, returned from her London trip. Police wanted to take her into custody in connection with the raid, but she outsmarted them by producing an anticipatory bail order issued by a city court.

City Crime Branch sleuths had on June 1 night raided Energetic Inc, a massage parlour run by Hingorani in Jayamahal, and arrested nine women and 11 men under Immoral Trafficking Prevention Act. *The arrested also included former DRDO scientist Mohan Rao and J Narayan, a defence equipment supplier.*Assistant commissioner of police R Lakshman said, &#8220;She returned to the city on Thursday night. We arrested her and released her after verifying the anticipatory bail.&#8221; 

Meanwhile, Hingorani has reportedly sent a letter to police commissioner B G Jyothi Prakash Mirji seeking permission to restart her parlour. She has reportedly mentioned in her letter that the establishment was a &#8216;spa&#8217; which treats people with ailments and she wanted to reopen it.

Lakshman said, &#8220;On Friday, she (Hingorani) requested us to let her reopen the parlour, but we are yet to decide on it. If she is ready to give full assurance to run without illegal activities, we may give permission.&#8221;


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## Bossman

*How DRDO failed India's military*
January 15, 2008 


*The difference between India's failure against Pakistan's success in their respective missile programmes is based on the purist mindset of the Defence Research and Development Organisation to develop indigenously all complex weapon platforms and Islamabad's intelligent alliance with China and the approach to achieve its goals 'by any means, fair or foul'! While Pakistan was pragmatic in its approach, India was merely pompous. *

Therefore, it should not come as a surprise that India's Integrated Guided Missile Development Programme has been finally shelved. This marks an unceremonious end of an ambitious technological misadventure by the DRDO -- country's premier defence R&D agency. For nearly two-and-a-half decades, it doled out mere promises to the country's armed forces -- delaying their much- needed modernisation plans. 

The armed forces were forced to resort to off-the-shelf 'panic buying' whenever they realised that the strategic balance was tilting in favour of their adversaries. Besides missiles, there are other equipments such as the Main Battle Tank Arjun, Unmanned Aerial Vehicle Nishant, Light Combat Aircraft Tejas, INSAS rifles which have been thrust on the end users despite unsatisfactory performances during trials. 

In the bargain, the military lost 25 precious years and the taxpayers' nearly Rs 2,000 crore by keeping the IGMDP programme under wraps to hide its inefficiency from the nation.

Even when the IGMDP was embarked upon, many pointed out that to successfully complete such a high-end technological programme, foreign collaboration would be needed. But the DRDO's obduracy prevailed and the programme dragged for so many years. 

It is wasteful to try and 'reinvent the wheel', but that is precisely what the DRDO backed by New Delhi did for all these years -- trying to develop every system and sub-system indigenously and ending up developing practically nothing of substance. 

The IGMPD started in 1983 after India failed to reverse engineer a Russian missile in the seventies, with A P J Abdul Kalam as the head. However, 25 years later the DRDO missiles remain off target. The army cannot rely on Prithvi, a battlefield support missile, unless technological issues affecting its launch readiness are resolved. Trishul, the quick reaction anti-aircraft missile, turned out to be a dud and is now being resurrected with the induction of foreign technology as a stopgap arrangement for the air force, till the Spyder missile systems from Israel finally arrives. Meanwhile this delay for the navy meant importing Israel's Barak missile. While Akash, the medium range surface to air missile with 27-km range, had its first user trial in end 2007, Nag, the anti-tank missile with 4-7 km range, is yet to begin user trials. 

Meanwhile, the air force with depleting fleet of obsolete Russian SA-3 Pechora and OSA-AK missile systems, is in a quandary as to how to plug holes in its air defence system in the western sector as the DRDO has failed to deliver. 

AGNI &#65533;I and AGNI-II with a range of 700 km and 2,500 km respectively, have been tested five times, which is inadequate to generate confidence in a nuclear capable missile. The end users of these ballistic missiles are army and the air force with 8 and 24 missiles in their arsenals but lack confidence in the quality of the product even as AGNI-IV is readied for trial in mid-2008 with a range of 6,000 km. 

The tacit admission of the DRDO's inability must not be limited to the missile programme alone; a review of all projects under its aegis is needed for a reality check and course correction. The DRDO fault-line primarily is a result of lack of accountability, focus, and failure to develop scientific disposition. 

The director general of DRDO wears three hats. He is also, secretary defence R&D and scientific advisor to the defence minister. These three inter-linked hats on one individual destroy the basic principal of accountability. Therefore, he is not answerable to anyone. 

DRDO scuttled a contract that was on the verge of being signed by India in 1997 for the import of a Weapon Locating Radar as the latter promised to produce it indigenously within two years. Due to this negligence, the Indian Army could not neutralise Pakistan's artillery fire effectively in the Kargil conflict and suffered heavy causalities. Of course, the DRDO to date is not in a position to produce WLR and ultimately India bought it from the previously selected producer in 2003. In my view, DRDO should be held directly responsible for these unwarranted war causalities. 

The DRDO actually produces in its Tezpur laboratory orchids and mushrooms, identifies the sharpest chili in the world with pride, while its lab in Pithoragarh develops hybrid varieties of cucumber, tomato and capsicum. It spends merrily from the defence budget on developing new strains of Angora rabbits and 'Namkeen Herbal Tea'! DRDO by indulging in such irrelevant activities lost its focus and sight of its primary responsibility. 

Instead of building a scientific temper, DRDO from its inception indulged in empire building, spending a major part of its budget on world-class auditoriums, convention centres, conference halls, and hostels, while neglecting research work. 

To remove DRDO's fault-line, New Delhi should rapidly transform India into a low cost, high end R&D centre of the world without neglecting its manufacturing sector. Fairly ideal demographic conditions exist along with favourable geo-political factors whereby international actors are willing to invest, as well as, set up shop in India. To maintain their technological lead, the West finds India as a logical destination for their defence industries, both as a potential market and also a base to develop low cost high-end research projects. 

On the other hand, we need to leapfrog as well as piggyback technologically, as reinventing the wheel is not necessarily an answer to the yawning technological gap that exists between the western countries and India. Therefore, there are synergies that should be exploited. Enormous mutual benefits can occur to both, if New Delhi can develop itself as a world-class R&D centre and a global hub for manufacturing sensitive military equipment. 

Due to the rapid march of technologies and huge costs involved in R&D, no single player is in a position to deliver next generation weapon systems. Whether it is Boeing, Lockheed Martin, DCN, Airbus, or HDW -- all of them sub-contract different assemblies and sub-systems globally to the most competitive and competent companies. The other interesting trend is the formation of trans-national consortiums of nations and companies to manufacture superior platforms like the Euro fighter or the Euro copter. The game, thus, is global as it is not feasible for a single player to manufacture or develop each item. 

In the development Sukhoi SU-30 MKI, the major player was the Russian corporation IRKUT but without the help of France [Images] and Israel, the fighter aircraft could not have developed the decisive technological edge that it displays. Therefore, India needs to shed its inhibitions, diversify, and form international industrial alliances to leapfrog technological gaps, boost export revenues from its military industrial complex, and leverage this strength as a strategic asset in Asia. 

In any case, defence technologies become obsolete by the time a country can reinvent the wheel. Therefore, radical shifting of strategic gears to a more advantageous position by opening up the field to private sector will stimulate self-sufficiency. Companies like Tatas or L&T can enter into joint ventures and where necessary import CEO's and employ foreign scientists to kick start complex projects. 

In fact, to improve performance of the Public Sector Units there should be competitors making fighter aircraft, missiles, and warships in the corporate world. Such farsighted policy shifts will improve India's self&#65533;sufficiency in the shortest possible time frame. This in turn, will increase the stakes of multi-nationals in India's well being and marginalise sanction regimes. 

The Indian Foreign Office took 58 years to grudgingly acknowledge the criticality of military diplomacy in international affairs. If DRDO can appreciate that a technologically advanced and vibrant defence industry is equally critical for India's security and its global aspirations, we will not replicate this mistake. In other words, it should be made to realise that it solely exists to support the armed forces and not vice versa. Therefore, New Delhi should force ruthless accountability, create focus and development of scientific temperament within DRDO and ensure fruitful collaboration with the Indian and international private sector, instead of permitting them to fritter away the defence budget on irrelevant and peripheral activities.


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## Bossman

*Bangalore: DRDO scientist arrested in raid on massage parlour * 

Ayan Pramanik & Aravind Gowda | Bangalore, May 23, 2011 | Updated 11:59 IST 


*Jagjivan Ram (inset), the director of a defence laboratory, was arrested from a high-end spa in this building on May 11.A scientist associated with the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) was arrested in a recent raid on a massage parlour in Bangalore which allegedly doubled as a brothel.*Jagjivan Ram, the director of the DRDO-affiliated Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), was one of 17 people nabbed from the high-end spa cum massage parlour on May 11.

Two pimps and women working at the parlour were also arrested.

Rao was a member of the team that developed the Kaveri engine for the indigenous Tejas light combat aircraft.

He is also the chairperson of the Bangalore branch of the Aeronautical Society of India.

He claimed innocence when confronted by the police, saying he was at the spa to enquire about treatment for his wife's nagging spondylitis and that he was at the "wrong place at the wrong time". The Bangalore Police raided the parlour run by socialite Madhuri Hingorani at around 11 pm after receiving information that it engaged in the trafficking of women. The parlour has denied the charge.

Bangalore police commissioner Jyothiprakash Mirji said a look-out notice has been sent to all airports for Hingorani, the proprietor of Energie Inc, which manages the parlour. She is currently believed to be in the UK. The Bangalore Police has booked Rao under the Immoral Trafficking Prevention Act. " My lawyers asked me not to discuss the issue as it is sub-judice," he said, adding he had been left traumatised by the incident.

The DRDO's vigilance wing has launched an internal inquiry to examine the charges. "Such reports against a high-profile officer raise serious concerns," a DRDO official said. The organisation's Delhi office has been briefed about the developments.

A decision is expected by Monday.

In police net

- Defence scientist Jagjivan Ram was arrested in a recent raid on a brothel-cum-massage parlour in Bangalore 

- The director of the DRDO- affiliated Gas Turbine Research Establishment was a member of the team that developed the Kaveri engine for the indigenous Tejas light combat aircraft 

- Ram has been charged under the Immoral Trafficking Prevention Act. He has denied the charges, saying he had come to enquire about treatment for his wife's spondylitis


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## Bossman

Tag Archive | "Failed Indian missiles"
The Delhi Dud Report on Indian Defense: Arms that don't work
Posted on 31 July 2009. Tags: Failed Indian missiles, Indian Duds, The Delhi Dud Report on Indian Defense


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Dud Report






[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpHlhitxDkw]

The CAG Report






[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boFTyp2jJZA]

[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tX9QGCrkQKw]

Who is responsible for the duds in the Bharati Defense establishment

Part 1






[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpDKNPbvAEY]

Part 2






[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75e5yautiK4]

Part 3






[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6Bqc8IBM6k]

Part 4






[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtPYHEPqERM]

All of Indi&#8217;a Rockets have failed. 1) Agni 2) Pirthivi 3) Akash 4) Trishul and 5) Nag 6) Agni consisting of surface to surface surface to air and anti-tank systems.

Prithvi: Failure: To date the only reliable delivery system inducted is the Pirthvi missile with a range of 300 kilometres. The subsequent versions of this missile are still undergoing tests. The pride of India the Agni missile tested last time landed 200 kilometres off target.

Akash: Failure: After several years of testing has been shelved for reasons best known to the Indians. Akash was meant as a substitute for Pechora. On the Akash missile, which was the subject of the DRDO media conference here on Tuesday, former air chief S. P. Tyagi said:&#8220;Akash was to be ready at a certain time, but it wasn&#8217;t. I had to change everything to make up for the delay.&#8221; Both missiles were part of a programme to develop indigenous weapons, which began in July 1983, with plans for Agni, Prithvi, Trishul, Akash and Nag missiles.

Trishul: Failure: Trishul is being replaced by Israeli Barak and Russian systems.

The IAF, for instance, has aging Pechora, Igla-1M and OSA-AK missile systems, and that, too, in woefully inadequate numbers.

While Trishul was to replace its OSA-AK weapons system, Akash was meant as a substitute for Pechora.

But both the Trishul and Akash air defence missile systems, which are part of the original Integrated Guided Missile Development Programme launched as far back as 1983, have been dogged by development snags in their &#8220;command guidance and integrated Ramjet rocket propulsion&#8221; systems.

Trishul, for instance, has been tested over 80 times so far without coming anywhere near becoming operational. It was, in fact, virtually given up for dead in 2003 after around Rs 300 crore was spent on it, before being revived yet again.

Trishul&#8217;s repeated failure, in fact, forced the Navy to go in for nine Israeli Barak anti-missile defence systems for its frontline warships, along with 200 Barak missiles, at a cost of Rs 1,510 crore during the 1999 Kargil conflict. The Navy is now inducting even more Barak systems due to Trishul&#8217;s continued failure.

Speaking of the Trishul surface-to-air missile that has now been termed a technology demonstrator, former naval chief Sushil Kumar said:&#8220;It was a national embarrassment. DRDO made fake claims for 25 years. In the 1999 Kargil conflict, the navy was vulnerable to attacks from Pakistan&#8217;s Harpoon.

&#8220;Finally the project was scrapped when the navy went in for the Israeli Barak missiles. The Prithvi&#8217;s naval variant, Dhanush, is also flawed and ill-conceived, which is being inflicted on the navy.&#8221;Indian missile system started back in the 50s on a five folder programme namely:






[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zTnARCBi3c&feature=player_embedded]

Nag: Failure: The Nag proved to be as deadily as the Holy Cow.

Agni: Failure: The Agni-I (range 700 to 800 kilometers) and Agni-II were both products of India&#8217;s space program and connected to its Integrated Guided Missile Development Program (IGMDP), itself launched in 1983. Originally, their design used a satellite space-launching rocket (SLV-3) as the first stage, on top of which was mounted the very short-range (150 to 250 kilometers) liquid fuel-propelled Prithvi missile.

The Agni-III&#8217;s brand new design, in which both stages use solid propellants, was to enable it to carry a payload weighing up to 1.5 tons and deliver it to targets as far away as Beijing and Shanghai. At present, India lacks an effective nuclear deterrent vis-a-vis China, based on a delivery vehicle carrying a nuclear warhead. Agni-III was meant to fill the void.

The failure of the Agni III was in some ways more serious because it exposed the political limitations of India&#8217;s attempts, despite its ambitions, to pursue a military capability which is truly independent of the US&#8217;s strategic calculations.

The surface-to-surface ballistic missile, designed to have a range of 3,500 kilometers, took off in a &#8220;fairly smooth&#8221; manner at the designated hour. But &#8220;a series of mishaps&#8221; occurred in its later flight path.

The Agni-III was originally meant to be tested in 2003-04. However, the test was postponed owing to technological snags. After their rectification, said reports, the missile&#8217;s test flights were put off twice largely for &#8220;political reasons&#8221;, so as not to annoy the US.

Earlier this year, India decided to postpone the missile test out of fear that a test could hamper US Congressional ratification of the India-US nuclear cooperation deal. Publicly, the Indian defense minister cited &#8220;self-imposed restraint&#8221; to justify the postponement.

The Indian missile met a disaster as it could not attain the altitude where the first stage is over or the second is even ignited.

He disputed the Indian claim, saying that with the range of 3,500 km, the missile had to go above about 800-900 km while the second stage had to be ignited at 28 to 30 km.

&#8216;If the missile fell from the height of 12 km, it establishes that either it&#8217;s motor rocket, the basics of the missile proved failure or the guidance and control system was faulty. In both the probabilities, Indian technology has been exposed in clumsy manners.&#8217;

&#8216;It is interesting to watch that Indian missile programme that was initiated by French and US assistance and later New Delhi also borrowed Russian technical support has been facing tragedies from the beginning,&#8217; the newspaper quoted him as saying


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## Jungibaaz

IBRIS said:


> Air\frame doesn't represnt any replica of any super aerodynamic khoj,


Pakistani engineers designed it, don't go off complaining, you asked for Pakistan's part in it... you got it!
Stop looking around for more stuff to complain about.



IBRIS said:


> What suit are you talking about, really.


Explaining this to you is a waste of time, seems to be having no effect on you!!!
RWR, DAS and MAW (check these out for yourself, I wont be force feeding you this info)



IBRIS said:


> This sounded more like a middle school project than an any super chinese contributed piece of art.


HDMS? do you even know what that is? Middle school project?

Grow up kid!


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## Storm Force

What is it with you PDF guys.

EVERY SINGLE WEAPON SYSTEM EVER DESIGNED FROM LAST 100 YEARS has failures. Some times failures upon failures.

nothing works first time has intended the very first or second time BUT EVENTUALLY they get ir right

THIS IS WHY THE INDIAN MILITARY ARE INDUCTING as we speak 40+ war ships including nuke subs & carrier

fighter jets and combat helicopters advanced SAM systems and early warning radars.

THE RANGE OF INDIA,S ARSENAL OF INDIAN ORIGIN IS MASSIVE AND VERY IMPRESSIVE, far superior to any other ASIAN country BAR CHINA

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## Pfpilot

My problem with questioning the indigenous capability of India is of its importance in the grand scheme of things. In a conflict, will it matter if the fighter or tank or ship across from you is Indian made or procured from another country?
I would understand if the Indian members had a problem with this, homegrown products not only help industries advance, but also provide jobs...but as a Pakistani, it is of no relevance where these weapons come from...our problem should be that these weapons are pointed right at us. So from that perspective, I dont feel all superior because the overwhelming Indian force facing us isnt a product of India.


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## nForce

Pfpilot said:


> My problem with questioning the indigenous capability of India is of its importance in the grand scheme of things. In a conflict, will it matter if the fighter or tank or ship across from you is Indian made or procured from another country?
> I would understand if the Indian members had a problem with this, homegrown products not only help industries advance, but also provide jobs...but as a Pakistani, it is of no relevance where these weapons come from...our problem should be that these weapons are pointed right at us. So from that perspective, I dont feel all superior because the overwhelming Indian force facing us isnt a product of India.



Weapons buildup is nothing but a burden on the country's economy.Either both India and Pakistan are overdoing it(well I think it mostly India these days),or we are locked up in a really sorry situation.

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## MrIndianSikh

good thread!


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## acetophenol

*ashok leyland stallion*


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## acetophenol




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## Water Car Engineer




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## acetophenol

mahindra torpedo decoy launcher:

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## ziaulislam

Storm Force said:


> RIP OFF OR NO RIP OFF.
> 
> Help from Russia Israel or Europe IT MAKES NO DIFFRENCE.
> 
> The fact is plain & simple
> 
> NO OTHR COUNTRY IN ASIA bar China & Japan can or is building planning to build INDENGIOUS
> 
> NUKE SUBS
> Aircraft carriers
> Attack helos
> Guided missle frigates
> guided missle destroyers
> combt planes
> main battle tanks
> radar systems.
> 
> " THE RANGE OF INDIAN INDENGIOUS WEAPONS IS IMPRESSIVE"
> 
> for what is supposed to be a predominant weapons importer.
> 
> IEXPECT THE INDENGIOUS CONTENT TO RISE FROM 20% CURRENTLY
> 
> TO 50% BY 2020 easily


china has done all this decades ago and are also working on aircraft carrier so modify your statement to south asia


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## Strigon

Well we all have seen the results of India's 'Indigenous' products. Posting the only few success stories doesn't convince people. 

With the very many connections of India with the other developed nations over its Pakistani counter part, its not as impressive that now after so many years we are seeing the nation start to stand on its own feet....well trying to.

Considering Pakistan's limited options and support except from china, its not very far behind you. Now that is impressive.


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## acetophenol

Strigon said:


> Posting the only few success stories doesn't convince people.



why should we convince you?



> With the very many connections of India with the other developed nations over its Pakistani counter part,



ever wondered why india was able to have so many 'connections'?




> Considering Pakistan's limited options and support except from china



why your nation has connections only with china?


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## Strigon

> why should we convince you?


\

You are trying to convince us (Pakistanis) by bragging about your capabilities on 'PDF'.



> ever wondered why india was able to have so many 'connections'?



What do you think, world is in love with India? No friend they like your money. Being a Non-muslim state when world is controlled by west gives you advantages.



> why your nation has connections only with china?



I guess already answered that above.


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## acetophenol

*mahindra field ambulance*


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## acetophenol

ashok leyland field artillery tracor 6x6


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## acetophenol

*comet 4x4:*


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## acetophenol

*royal enfield bullet military:*

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## acetophenol

*bajaj pulsar with iran*


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## acetophenol

*rustom uav*:

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## acetophenol

*folding road laying system:*


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## ziaulislam

india inherited a good industrial base for its defence..it also spend biloons in research and devlpment..and is continuing to spend billions of dollars..
india also has a nice privite automobile struture..

the real problem is that although india may have developed lots of indigenous equipment, the army still favours foreign equipment, making india to import weapons


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## Water Car Engineer

ziaulislam said:


> india inherited a good industrial base for its defence..it also spend biloons in research and devlpment..and is continuing to spend billions of dollars..
> india also has a nice privite automobile struture..
> 
> the real problem is tha*t although india may have developed lots of indigenous equipment*, the army still favours foreign equipment, making india to import weapons


 
India hasn't built enough indigenous equipment, but in the next 10-20 years things will change for sure..

It's only recently a lot of these programs and projects have been popping up..


Also HAL, DRDO, OFO,etc, etc, etc have recently been expanding their capabilities, because there is more funding.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

The dhruv heli is also a failure with 90-95% coming frm foriegn suppliers.......n still getting ......

Even the few heli purchased by ecuador r facing issues like crashes n grounding... 
IS Indian Dhruv Helicopters Facing Maintance Problems in Ecuador ~ ASIAN DEFENCE NEWS


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## Water Car Engineer

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> The dhruv heli is also a failure with 90-95% coming frm foriegn suppliers.......n still getting ......
> 
> Even the few heli purchased by ecuador r facing issues like crashes n grounding...
> IS Indian Dhruv Helicopters Facing Maintance Problems in Ecuador ~ ASIAN DEFENCE NEWS


 

Look were Asian blog got that news from..

It's from Associate press of Pakistan.

http://app.com.pk/en_/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=146103&Itemid=2

Right after the lame attempt at bashing Dhruv, the Ecuadoreans themselves defended Dhruv..Ecuadoreans have always been satisfied with the Dhruv.

The attempt was an epic, epic, epic, epic faaaaaaaaaiilll....

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/124088-ecuadorian-air-force-fae-defends-dhruv-helicopters.html 

La FAE defiende a los helicópteros Dhruv

How can you call Dhruv a fail?? It's inducted into the army, navy, and airforce.

And from Dhruv came these.











and later this

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## acetophenol

> india inherited a good industrial base for its defence.



we also inherited a large population and a large country to defend too.


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## acetophenol

*12 BORE PUMP ACTION GUn*







---------- Post added at 12:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:30 PM ----------

*INFLATABLE BOAT PRASHANT 465 MK - 2*

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## acetophenol




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## ramu

*IAF orders another 750 Akash SAMs*

The Indian Air Force (IAF) has ordered an additional 750 Akash medium-range surface-to-air missiles (SAMs) from state-run defence behemoth Bharat Electronics Ltd (BEL) at a cost of Rs.42.79 billion ($925 million), it was announced here Tuesday.

"A decision to place this fresh order with BEL was taken after the IAF expressed satisfaction with the performance of the Akash missiles that are deployed in two squadrons," Defence Minister A.K. Antony said on Tuesday.

The IAF will deploy 125 missiles each in six squadrons as and when BEL delivers them.
"The first order for 250 missiles was placed last year on a pilot basis. The IAF has decided to deploy the weapon in more squadrons for optimal use," Antony said after inaugurating the digital flight control (DFC) computer facility at BEL here.

BEL chairman and managing director Ashwani Kumar Datt said that the first order was worth Rs.12.21 billion.

Designed and developed by the state-run Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), the Akash missile defence system is part of the country's integrated guided missile development programme.

"The missile can target an enemy aircraft up to 30 km away, at altitudes up to 18,000 meters and can be fired from both tracked and wheeled platforms," Datt told reporters on the margins of the function.

The missile is capable of carrying conventional as well as nuclear warheads with a payload of 60 kg.

On the occasion, BEL also handed over to the defence minister an advanced gun fire control system for the Indian Navy.

IAF orders another 750 Akash SAMs

I think the single article above neutralise the myth of Pakistan.

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## acetophenol

ramu said:


> *IAF orders another 750 Akash SAMs*
> 
> The Indian Air Force (IAF) has ordered an additional 750 Akash medium-range surface-to-air missiles (SAMs) from state-run defence behemoth Bharat Electronics Ltd (BEL) at a cost of Rs.42.79 billion ($925 million), it was announced here Tuesday.
> 
> "A decision to place this fresh order with BEL was taken after the IAF expressed satisfaction with the performance of the Akash missiles that are deployed in two squadrons," Defence Minister A.K. Antony said on Tuesday.
> 
> The IAF will deploy 125 missiles each in six squadrons as and when BEL delivers them.
> "The first order for 250 missiles was placed last year on a pilot basis. The IAF has decided to deploy the weapon in more squadrons for optimal use," Antony said after inaugurating the digital flight control (DFC) computer facility at BEL here.
> 
> BEL chairman and managing director Ashwani Kumar Datt said that the first order was worth Rs.12.21 billion.
> 
> Designed and developed by the state-run Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), the Akash missile defence system is part of the country's integrated guided missile development programme.
> 
> "The missile can target an enemy aircraft up to 30 km away, at altitudes up to 18,000 meters and can be fired from both tracked and wheeled platforms," Datt told reporters on the margins of the function.
> 
> The missile is capable of carrying conventional as well as nuclear warheads with a payload of 60 kg.
> 
> On the occasion, BEL also handed over to the defence minister an advanced gun fire control system for the Indian Navy.
> 
> IAF orders another 750 Akash SAMs


 
Good news!


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## Storm Force

INDIAN AWACS SYSTEM LOOKS SUPERB


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## indiatech

Indian Navy Future Trimaran Stealth Frigate


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## savVY

Any news about *Light Tactical Vehicle*


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