# Southern Han Chinese and their relationship with the Baiyue



## Grand Historian

First off, I would like to apologize to moderator Hu Songshan for going off topic on other threads therefore I decided to makes this topic.

Since this topic is a prickly one I welcome moderation if things become heated,I will try to uphold propriety and I expect others to do as well.


My purpose is to educate and dispel myths about genetics and the Baiyue ancestry of modern day Southern Han Chinese.

First off, there is nothing as Baiyue or Han DNA,haplogroups formed prior to the formation of ethnicities they spread either by conquest,bottlenecks or spread of agriculture/technology.

Baiyue is a term coined by the Chinese for the "barbarian" statelets of Southern China and beyond there is no evidence whatsoever that the Baiyue even called themselves yue(越 or 粵 these were used interchangeably in ancient times).

Baiyue was applied to multiple people, from the enemies Wu Qi pacified to the natives of the Lingnan region.

The Baiyue did not belong in the same language family(Tibeto Burman,Austro Asiatic,Tai Kadai,Hmong-Mien,Austronesian),neither did they gravitate towards the idea of a sovereign.






However Baiyue did share some traits such as:
teeth blackening
short hair
warlike
stilt houses
tattoos
hemp clothing
small villages
etc

However rather then being completely shut out from Sinitic influences, the Baiyue adopted Chinese weapons,served as mercanaries,decorated their bronze drums with Chinese motifs and even mingled with Sinitic migrants ie Zhuang Qiao in Dianyue,Zhao Tuo and his soldiers in Nanyue and remenants of the YuYue court in Minyue and DongOu.

Who Invented the Bronze Drum? Nationalism,Politics, and a Sino- Vietnamese Archaeological Debate of the 1970s and 1980s

Zhuang 02

People don't seem to realize the intial Baiyue population was quite small except for Northern Vietnam

From 中國人口史 I will translate this portion when I have time for now Chinese readers can analyze it.

These portions are about Southern minorities.

Western Han




Eastern Han.

















From another forum:
The first map shows Han Chinese population at 2 A.D. with 57.7 million total,44 million living in the north and 13.7 in the south.





The second map Shows Han Chinese population at 140 A.D. with 48 million total,26 in the north and 22 in the south.





For later periods the province of Fujian in the 8th century had 104,311 people,9th century 74,467,10 century 467,815 and 12th century 1,061,759 gotten from Empire of Min.



For further reading I would recommend:
http://www.ihp.sinica.edu.tw/~asiamajor/pdf/2003a/03 brindley.pdf
http://sino-platonic.org/complete/spp017_yue.pdf
百越民族史
百越源流与文化

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## ChineseTiger1986

The modern Southern Hans are predominantly O3a Huaxia, but there were some so-called Baiyue tribes lived in the basin of the Yangzi River.

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## jkroo

Just for those who don't know that modern China has *56* ethnic groups.

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## Viet

Grand Historian said:


> The Baiyue did not belong in the same language family(Tibeto Burman,Austro Asiatic,Tai Kadai,Hmong-Mien,Austronesian),neither did they gravitate towards the idea of a sovereign.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> However Baiyue did share some traits such as:
> *teeth blackening
> short hair
> warlike
> stilt houses
> tattoos
> hemp clothing
> small villages*
> etc


many Chinese argue the Vietnamese people have nothing relating to Baiyue, so why the Viets embrace such traits as you have listed above? What is your opinion?

teeth blackening




stilt house of Ho Chi Minh





short hair
hemp clothing





small village





I am not sure about tatoos.

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## Grand Historian

Viet said:


> many Chinese argue the Vietnamese people have nothing relating to Baiyue, so why the Viets embrace such traits as you have listed above? What is your opinion?
> 
> teeth blackening
> 
> 
> 
> 
> stilt house of Ho Chi Minh
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> short hair
> hemp clothing
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> small village
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am not sure about tatoos.


Well the Baiyue was just a umbrella term the ancient Chinese used for unsinicized Southern natives,that doesn't mean that modern day Vietnamese can claim all of Southern China as their long lost land.

ie it would be like a Native American tribe lets say the Apache claiming the history/territories of the Iroquois.

So yes I partially agree with the notion,Vietnamese have no lineage from YuYue,Minyue etc only from Ouyue,Luoyue and Nanyue.

Shared cultural traits amongst primitive people isn't exactly uncommon.

Adopting someone else's culture doesn't automatically make the two groups related,the introduction of horses,chariots and bronze smelting to China was from the West however that doesn't make Chinese related to Sumerians,Scythians etc rather culture and technology is easily adopted.

What is truly irritating is that some nationalistic Vietnamese are making irredentist claims about Southern China belonging to Vietnamese and that Southern Han Chinese are not true Chinese.

If you want me to address the myth of the Xich Quy,Van Lang or the Hung kings I will.

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## Viet

Grand Historian said:


> Well the Baiyue was just a umbrella term the ancient Chinese used for unsinicized Southern natives,that doesn't mean that modern day Vietnamese can claim all of Southern China as their long lost land.
> 
> ie it would be like a Native American tribe lets say the Apache claiming the history/territories of the Iroquois.
> 
> So *yes I partially agree *with the notion,Vietnamese have no lineage from YuYue,Minyue etc only from Ouyue,Luoyue and *Nanyue*.


okay, at least you are one who partially admits this.


Grand Historian said:


> Shared cultural traits amongst primitive people isn't exactly uncommon.
> 
> Adopting someone else's *culture *doesn't automatically make the two groups related,the introduction of horses,chariots and bronze smelting to China was from the West however that doesn't make Chinese related to Sumerians,Scythians etc rather *culture and technology is easily adopted..*


when you argue then you should remain constant thru the debate. the point is cultures and custom. the traits in the opening post you have listed. We are not talking about adopting technique such as gunpowders or other things you mention bronze smelting.

do you know any other tribes or nations in SE Asia or elsewhere that share similar Yue/Sinic cultures and custom like the Viets, as you say it is easy to adopt?


Grand Historian said:


> What is truly irritating is that *some *nationalistic Vietnamese are making irredentist claims about Southern China belonging to Vietnamese and that Southern Han Chinese are not true Chinese.


some, but not the majority

I believe the debate is about whether the Kingdom of NanYue is Chinese or Vietnamese. We say it is Vietnamese Kingdom: the ancient NamViet, today Vietnam.


Grand Historian said:


> If you want me to address the myth of the Xich Quy,Van Lang or the *Hung kings* I will.


Van Lang and Hung Kings are a myth, so there is no point to continue the debate here on the forum. unless tomorrrow some unknow facts arrive the scene, then we can continue.


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## Lux de Veritas

The O Y chromosome came from SE Asia, not the other way round. Human migrate to SE Asia first, then to East Asia, and this is now generally accepted by genetist.

The Human Journey: Migration Routes




l

Genetically Southern Chinese cluster with Vietnamese, Thai and Malay, not with Northern Chinese. Northern Chinese is extremely far from Southern Chinese.

The History and Geography of Human Genes - Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza, Paolo Menozzi, Alberto Piazza - Google Books

Y chromosome is just one of the metrics. The most authoritative scholar on genetic distance is Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza of Stanford University. Cavalli-Sforza's The History and Geography of Human Genes (1994 with Paolo Menozzi and Alberto Piazza) is a standard reference on human genetic variation. Cavalli-Sforza look at an average of 68.6 genes.

But anthropological evidence suggest a North to South migration, from East Asia to SE Asia. For example, there are suggestions that Malays originated from Taiwan and even Fujian. The Thai and Burmese are definitely from Yunan.

The idea that Southern Chinese are predominantly descendant of Northern Chinese need further investigation. That is just based mainly on looking at Y chromosome without considering larger and complicated picture of human migration.

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## Viet

@Lux de Veritas

I´m afraid your cousins will not agree with you. They don´t like to see us to group with Southern Chinese. I read in a book the first Viets were indoaustralian race and came from the Sea. They settled down in the Red river delta over thousands of years ago. Over the time the Viets mixed with other races, mostly with local Chinese and Mongols.

Genetic speaking we are Indoaustralian, and indeed mixed with Han, Manchu and Mongolian (assuming the graph below is correct, borrowed from wholegrain).


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## Speeder 2

Lux de Veritas said:


> View attachment 14835
> 
> 
> The O Y chromosome came from SE Asia, not the other way round. Human migrate to SE Asia first, then to East Asia, and this is now generally accepted by genetist.
> 
> The Human Journey: Migration Routes
> 
> 
> 
> 
> l
> 
> Genetically Southern Chinese cluster with Vietnamese, Thai and Malay, not with Northern Chinese. Northern Chinese is extremely far from Southern Chinese.
> 
> The History and Geography of Human Genes - Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza, Paolo Menozzi, Alberto Piazza - Google Books
> 
> Y chromosome is just one of the metrics. The most authoritative scholar on genetic distance is Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza of Stanford University. Cavalli-Sforza's The History and Geography of Human Genes (1994 with Paolo Menozzi and Alberto Piazza) is a standard reference on human genetic variation. Cavalli-Sforza look at an average of 68.6 genes.
> 
> But anthropological evidence suggest a North to South migration, from East Asia to SE Asia. For example, there are suggestions that Malays originated from Taiwan and even Fujian. The Thai and Burmese are definitely from Yunan.
> 
> The idea that Southern Chinese are predominantly descendant of Northern Chinese need further investigation. That is just based mainly on looking at Y chromosome without considering larger and complicated picture of human migration.



Verita I am afraid that I can't agree with you:

1. There're countless "genetical graphs and analysis"on internet nowadays tell many "scientific stories". Most of them have questionable sources. Don't fall for them. While Cavalli-Sforza is kinda of famous (aka well-quoted), what he claims it's not necessarily 100% doubt-free, particularly in areas of genes, the knowledge on which is fastly exploding in recent years. Most of Cavalli-Sforza's related work (the graph, data from nationalgeographic, etc) were from the 1990's, when genes research was still at its infancy. Nowadays, what a young and unknown researcher at BGI probably knows much more, and correct, about genes than famous Cavalli-Sforza.

e.g. previously the world geneticts thought northern indians are drastically different from the southen indians. yet recent gene research indicates that the gap between them is quite small, really, so much soo that it can be said that in general Indians, nothern or southern, are by and large homogenous at the sub-continental level.

2. It seems that the key here is which gene/s decides more. The judge on this is still out there. Weither Cavalli-Sforza looked at 62 genes or more could be highly questionable under the new knowledge we gained, and are keeping gaining as we speak, in gene research in recent years. Even though this probably would not affect the general opinions on many small ethnic groups, for large groups with complicated histories such as Han Chinese, the conclusion could be quite different from Cavalli-Sforza's research. 

3. the problem with "traditional" view of Cavalli-Sforza is that it is very ambiguous to define what is "Southern Chinese". Is Shanghainese southern Chinese? Zhejiang ppl? Hunan ppl? or Sichuan ppl? ... And South of What? where to draw the line? And "Southern Chinese" from which era? - you know Southen Asutralians were obriginals many years ago and now they are mainly European Caucasoid... So "Southen Chinese" are from now, or from Song or Yuan Dynasty for instance? ... Here some simple logic helps:

in ancient time across the world, areas were occupied and re-occupied by victors of wars. The males of the losers were largely killed and became slaves who consequently lost their breeding rights - their Y-chromosome haves been rooted out - unfortunately this has been how mother nature works for eons. The females of the losers were largely killed, too, with ONLY a small fraction left for breeding with the winners... if this general rule holds true, then we can reasonablely assume that "Southen" Chinese were largely Northern Chinese ( the invaders) in fact who almost completely replaced the "original" habitants, whomever they were, in South of Yangzi River. This happened at least 2 or 3,000 years ago. however, it appears that some of the females of the losen tribes were allowed to breed with the Northern Chinese "invaders". That's why today's "Southern"Chinese have mostly Han Chinese Y-chromosome. right?

4. this leads to the last question here , is Y-chromosome the more determined factor (of whom you are), or is it just one insignificant factor among many many more. I think the answer is more prone to the former, because intelligence level of an ethnic groups of people or any spieces of lifeform on earth really, IMO, is the single most important factor of survival hence holds the overwelming significance AND purpose in the process of breeding of any lifeform. So in a sense the human breeding , for instance, can be viewed as being in fact a process with deliberate goal of propagation of Y-chromosome, making (or maintaining) it as intelligent as possible for maximising the chance of the successful survial of its future generations, right? therefore, it is logical that the "forever" Y-chromosom has more to do with the intelligence level relative to others hence it remains a more important factor in determing "whom you really are". 

The facts that most so called "Southern Chinese" have identical Y-chromosome as the "Northern Chinese" AND with almost identical average IQ level offer a strong proof to my point 4.

Therefore, except obvious far south areas such as Yunana province where there're ethnicities who are clearly direct relatives of ethnic Thais/Laos, etc and have nothing to do with Northern Han, and some pockets of "world heritage protection areas", I view the so-called "Southen Chinese" as mostly Nothern Chinese in origin, with only some of them (a minority) having mixed maternal lines closer to SE Asia.

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## Grand Historian

Viet said:


> when you argue then you should remain constant thru the debate. the point is cultures and custom. the traits in the opening post you have listed. We are not talking about adopting technique such as gunpowders or other things you mention bronze smelting.
> 
> do you know any other tribes or nations in SE Asia or elsewhere that share similar Yue/Sinic cultures and custom like the Viets, as you say it is easy to adopt?


Vietnamese adopted Sinic culture that doesn't prove that they are related only one copied the other.

I'm not going to do research for you a quick Google search shows that teeth blackening,stilt houses,sea faring is common in SEA and pre Han Southern China.



Viet said:


> I believe the debate is about whether the Kingdom of NanYue is Chinese or Vietnamese. We say it is Vietnamese Kingdom: the ancient NamViet, today Vietnam.


My argument is that Nanyue is a Siniczed kingdom with many different ethnicities,its not exclusively Vietnamese.

1.The founder Zhao Tuo is from Zhending,Zhao which is definitely Chinese.

2.According to Shiji there were Qin convicts/soldiers that lived in Nanyue.

3.The capital was in Panyu not Vietnam.

4.Zhao Tuo married indigenous women and adopted Yue customs.

5.Chinese elements remain,Chinese style administration,Chinese weapons,Hanzi,gold seals and jade burial suits were used.

6.Zhao Tuo conquered OuLuo,which was in Northern Vietnam.

7.Zhao Tuo styled himself after the Chinese emperor using the title Huangdi for private use and referring to himself as Wang when dealing with the Han dynasty.

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## Lux de Veritas

If population of vanquished are exterminated 99%, then Northern China will be Mongols, Turks and Manchus. Also Y chromosome tell us that Chinese is from SE Asia.

If you look at Y Chromosome ONLY the migration pattern suggest the other way round. Not the northern Chinese begets Southern Chinese, but people in Southern Chinese give rise to Northern Chinese. The theory was put forward by PRC scholars more than anyone else.

However given the complicated waves of migration patterns of human being, it would be plausible that the earliest waves of human migration saw Northern Chinese branched out of Southern China tribe as a separate people. Later, Northern Chinese returned to the South.

Anthropologist suggest Southern Chinese are mestizo of Northern and locals, not entirely Northern. Also, it is conclusive that Thai, Malay and Burmese are from China.

Human migration through bottlenecks from Southeast ... [PLoS One. 2011] - PubMed - NCBI
Cai X, Qin Z, Wen B, Xu S, Wang Y, Lu Y, Wei L, Wang C, Li S, Huang X, Jin L, Li H;

*Molecular anthropological studies of the populations in and around East Asia have resulted in the discovery that most of the Y-chromosome lineages of East Asians came from Southeast Asia*. However, very few Southeast Asian populations had been investigated, and therefore, little was known about the purported migrations from Southeast Asia into East Asia and their roles in shaping the genetic structure of East Asian populations. Here, we present the Y-chromosome data from 1,652 individuals belonging to 47 Mon-Khmer (MK) and Hmong-Mien (HM) speaking populations that are distributed primarily across Southeast Asia and extend into East Asia. Haplogroup O3a3b-M7, which appears mainly in MK and HM, indicates a strong tie between the two groups. The short tandem repeat network of O3a3b-M7 displayed a hierarchical expansion structure (annual ring shape), with MK haplotypes being located at the original point, and the HM and the Tibeto-Burman haplotypes distributed further away from core of the network. Moreover, the East Asian dominant haplogroup O3a3c1-M117 shows a network structure similar to that of O3a3b-M7. These patterns indicate an early unidirectional diffusion from Southeast Asia into East Asia, which might have resulted from the genetic drift of East Asian ancestors carrying these two haplogroups through many small bottle-necks formed by the complicated landscape between Southeast Asia and East Asia. The ages of O3a3b-M7 and O3a3c1-M117 were estimated to be approximately 19 thousand years, followed by the emergence of the ancestors of HM lineages out of MK and the unidirectional northward migrations into East Asia.


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## Lux de Veritas

The O3 subclate that is being associated for Han Chinese-ness occurred most frequently within Derung (独龙族) who span across Yunnan and Burma. Next are Nishi followed by Adi, who sadly live in Southern Tibet occupied by India.

Wikipedia state that this gene

Possible place of origin

China (GenographicProject 2005) or
Southeast Asia (Shi 2009)
Haplogroup O-M122 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Looking at Y Chromosome diversity in SE Asia compared to a more homogeneous pool in NE Asia, genetists conclude that SE Asian begets NE Asian, not the other way round. In addition of diversity, the O3 subclate that associate most with Chinese happen to occur in much larger frequency in tribes of South Western part of China and India Assam region.

Nevertheless, the genetist deduction is far from conclusive. The anthropologist often suggest the other way.* It is suggested by anthropologist that Assam people migrated from China.*

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## EastSea

Grand Historian said:


> My argument is that Nanyue is a Siniczed kingdom with many different ethnicities,its not exclusively Vietnamese.
> 1.The founder Zhao Tuo is from Zhending,Zhao which is definitely Chinese.
> 2.According to Shiji there were Qin convicts/soldiers that lived in Nanyue.
> 3.The capital was in Panyu not Vietnam.
> 4.Zhao Tuo married indigenous women and adopted Yue customs.
> 5.Chinese elements remain,Chinese style administration,Chinese weapons,Hanzi,gold seals and jade burial suits were used.
> 6.Zhao Tuo conquered OuLuo,which was in Northern Vietnam.
> 7.Zhao Tuo styled himself after the Chinese emperor using the title Huangdi for private use and referring to himself as Wang when dealing with the Han dynasty.



George Washington is founder USA, he is English man and president of USA when it became independent state from UK. Same as Zhao Tuo did with the NanYue Kingdom.

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## Lux de Veritas

Vietnam elites for a long time after her independence from China, are Chinese. In Korea, the natives control the country after her independence from China.

This is quite indisputable.


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## EastSea

Viet said:


> @Lux de Veritas
> 
> I´m afraid your cousins will not agree with you. They don´t like to see us to group with Southern Chinese. I read in a book the first Viets were indoaustralian race and came from the Sea. They settled down in the Red river delta over thousands of years ago. Over the time the Viets mixed with other races, mostly with local Chinese and Mongols.
> 
> Genetic speaking we are Indoaustralian, and indeed mixed with Han, Manchu and Mongolian (assuming the graph below is correct, borrowed from wholegrain).



The graph is interesting that Vietnamese shared O2b with Manchus, Korean and Japanese.


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## Lux de Veritas

ran

Y Chromosome only shows part of the picture, nevertheless an important part of a person's genetic make up. Y Chromosome give information of paternal ancestry.

One of strongest evidence that East and North Asian gene came from SE Asia is that the C is both associated with Mongols and Siberians as well as dark pacific islanders, like Maori, and Australian aboriginals.

Genetist deduce that C must be from SE Asia. One branch went North and the other went South. Not possible that the Mongolian canoe thousands of km to New Zealand, or Maori jump ship at China, march to Mongolia then start learning horseback riding.


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## EastSea

Lux de Veritas said:


> Vietnam elites for a long time after her independence from China, are Chinese. In Korea, the natives control the country after her independence from China.
> 
> This is quite indisputable.



I don't think so, In Vietnam we say: " Văn Hóa Làng Xã, " its villages culture or regionalism, is very important item for ruling the country until now, it mean the warlords controlled first the country when Vietnam regained independence from China. 

After Ngo Quyen regained independence of Vietnam 938 ACE, but Dinh Bo Linh was unified the country after defeated on 12 warlords. Dinh Bo Linh was Vietnamese. The Dinh Dynasty is recognized the first official Dynasty of Vietnam, not Ngo Quyen.

In time of feudalism ruled Vietnam, Tran and Ho Dynasty is reported Chinese in origin, but for Tran Dynasty origin is debated. In according to The An Nam Chi Luoc (literally _Abbreviated Records of An Nam_) wrtten by Le Tac around 1,300 ACE, Tran family ancestor is Jiaozhi man.

Thảo luận:Nhà Trần – Wikipedia tiếng Việt


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## ChineseTiger1986

EastSea said:


> George Washington is founder USA, he is English man and president of USA when it became independent state from UK. Same as Zhao Tuo did with the NanYue Kingdom.



George Washington did win the independence war against Britain, while Zhao Tuo failed to do so against the Han Dynasty.



EastSea said:


> I don't think so, In Vietnam we say: " Văn Hóa Làng Xã, " its villages culture or regionalism, is very important item for ruling the country until now, it mean the warlords controlled first the country when Vietnam regained independence from China.
> 
> After Ngo Quyen regained independence of Vietnam 938 ACE, but Dinh Bo Linh was unified the country after defeated on 12 warlords. Dinh Bo Linh was Vietnamese. The Dinh Dynasty is recognized the first official Dynasty of Vietnam, not Ngo Quyen.
> 
> In time of feudalism ruled Vietnam, Tran and Ho Dynasty is reported Chinese in origin, but for Tran Dynasty origin is debated. In according to The An Nam Chi Luoc (literally _Abbreviated Records of An Nam_) wrtten by Le Tac around 1,300 ACE, Tran family ancestor is Jiaozhi man.
> 
> Thảo luận:Nhà Trần – Wikipedia tiếng Việt



China did not claim that Vietnam belonged to China historically, so neither Vietnam should claim South China as its historical land.


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## EastSea

An international study has found that the *Chinese people originated not from Peking Man in northern China, but from early humans in East Africa who moved through South Asia to China some 100,000 years ago,* Hong Kongs Ming Pao daily reported yesterday in a finding that confirms the single origin theory in anthropology.

According to the newspaper, a research team led by Jin Li (of Fudan University in Shanghai has found that modern humans evolved from a single origin, not multiple origins as some experts believe.

In China, school textbooks teach that the Chinese race evolved from Peking Man, based on a theory that humans in Europe and Asia evolved from local species.

But Jin and his fellow researchers found that early humans belonged to different species, of which only the East African species developed into modern humans.

This new finding nullifies the theory that the ancestors of the Chinese people were Peking Man who lived in northern China 400,000 years ago.

Based on DNA analyses of 100,000 samples gathered from around the world, a number of human families evolved in East Africa some 150,000 years ago, said Li Hui, a member of Jins team.

About 100,000 years ago, some of those humans began to leave Africa, with some people moving to China via South and Southeast Asia, Li said.

According to the newspaper article, it has been proven that the 65 branches of the Chinese race share similar DNA mutations with the peoples of East and Southeast Asia.

It said that the Shanghai scientists were part of an international team comprised of researchers from Russia, India, Brazil and other nations in a five-year project studying the geographic and genealogical routes related to the spread and settlement of modern humans.

copy from: trinicenter.com - Ancient Chinese


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## EastSea

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> George Washington did win the independence war against Britain, while Zhao Tuo failed to do so against the Han Dynast



but Nan Yue guo was existed in China history, like WuYue.



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> China did not claim that Vietnam belonged to China historically, so neither Vietnam should claim South China as its historical land.



We can, because from 18,000 to 5,500 years BCE, there was no Tonkin delta. It was under sea level. When Astria-Asiatic people (Mon/Khmer people included) were in mainland of China today, mountainous area of GungXi and Guangdong.

Lịch sử Việt Nam – Wikipedia tiếng Việt

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## ChineseTiger1986

EastSea said:


> but Nan Yue guo was existed in China history, like WuYue.
> 
> 
> 
> We can, because from 18,000 to 5,500 years BCE, there was no Tonkin delta. It was under sea level. When Astria-Asiatic people (Mon/Khmer people included) were in mainland of China today, mountainous area of GungXi and Guangdong.
> 
> Lịch sử Việt Nam – Wikipedia tiếng Việt



Wu Yue was once of the heart land of Bai Yue's civilization, but they decided to join the union of Hua Xia, so it is now China's territory.

But some oversea Viets are claiming the entire South China, which is too far fetched for the reality.

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## Grand Historian

EastSea said:


> George Washington is founder USA, he is English man and president of USA when it became independent state from UK. Same as Zhao Tuo did with the NanYue Kingdom.


Zhao Tuo wanted to be an emperor the truth is Nanyue contained more then just Vietnamese people?

Why don't you address my other claims?

What evidence do you have that Nanyue is Vietnamese?

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## Okemos

Well I am from Zhejiang, and we are still being called Yue or 越 as commonly used in 吴越 but we are so so far away from Vietnam that it would be rather far stretching to claim I am in anyway related to Vietnamese.

Unlike some Vietnamese, we people living in Zhejiang, the seat of Yue Kingdom during Warring States and Spring and Autumn periods, dare not to claim all of the lands from Yangtze River to Vietnam belong to us, or even related to the extent that we are the same group of people in ethnic terms.

The OP, Grand Historian, very eloquently explained "Baiyue" or hundreds of yue refer only to unsinicized native people in South China in ancient time, just like northern barbarians are referred to as "戎Rong," eastern barbarians as "夷Yi" western barbarians as Qiang 羌。 They are very broad terms only to describe those natives foreign to original Han Chinese. To claim that the whole southern tribes all belong to the same ethnicity defies common sense. Plus, I doubt uncivilized tribes at that time even have any idea of "belonging to the same group."

I am amateur on this topic, just my 2 cents.

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## Grand Historian

EastSea said:


> We can, because from 18,000 to 5,500 years BCE, there was no Tonkin delta. It was under sea level. When Astria-Asiatic people (Mon/Khmer people included) were in mainland of China today, mountainous area of GungXi and Guangdong.
> Lịch sử Việt Nam – Wikipedia tiếng Việt


I already debunked this claim before,Austro Asiatics are not exclusively Vietnamese and did not identify with the concept of Vietnam.


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## ChineseTiger1986

Okemos said:


> Well I am from Zhejiang, and we are still being called Yue or 越 but we are so so far away from Vietnam that it would be rather far stretching to claim I am in anyway related to Vietnamese.
> 
> Unlike some Vietnamese, we people living in Zhejiang, the seat of Yue Kingdom during Warring States and Spring and Autumn periods, dare not to claim all of the lands from Yangtze River to Vietnam belong to us, or even related to the extent that we are the same group of people in ethnic terms.
> 
> The OP, Grand Historian, very eloquently explained "Baiyue" or thousands of yue refer only to unsinicized native people in South China in ancient time, just like northern barbarians are referred to as "戎Rong," eastern barbarians as "夷Yi" western barbarians as Qiang 羌。 They are very broad terms only to describe those foreign people to original Han Chinese. To claim that the whole southern tribes all belong to the same ethnicity defies common sense. Plus, I doubt uncivilized tribes at that time even have any idea of "belonging to the same group."
> 
> I am amateur on this topic, just my 2 cents.



Some Zhejiangnese seem to have huge amount of amount of Bai Yue blood, while the rest is predominantly Han Chinese.

Here is an example of pure Bai Yue looking Zhejiangnese, Jack Ma, the founder of Alibaba.


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## Grand Historian

Notice how EastSea is trying to claim Southern China with an unproven myth(Hung Kings) and he cherry picks information when it suits him.

He mentions An Nam Chi Luoc yet he fails to mention that the author doesn't even mention the Xich Quy,Van Lang or the Hung kings.

Furthermore he has failed to provide the quotation in Hanzi,


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## ChineseTiger1986

Grand Historian said:


> Notice how EastSea is trying to claim Southern China with an unproven myth(Hung Kings) and he cherry picks information when it suits him.
> 
> He mentions An Nam Chi Luoc yet he fails to mention that the author doesn't even mention the Xich Quy,Van Lang or the Hung kings.
> 
> Furthermore he has failed to provide the quotation in Hanzi,



Vietnam is always trying to hide their true ambition.

They first want to claim the entire South China Sea and to unite Southeast Asia. With the available rich natural resources, they will eventually grow stronger and try to claim the entire South China.

I am not surprised that their government is already spreading the propaganda to their ultra-nationalists that the entire South China belongs to Vietnam, and it should be taken back in the future generation.


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## terranMarine

It must be a trait of Vietcongs to claim things which don't belong to them. They claim almost every islands in SCS to be theirs and now Southern China are ancient Vietnam territory and Southern Chinese are part of their ancient ancestors. Just how long is he gonna keep spreading these nonsense. While you guys have provided plenty of evidence this guy keeps talking about myths.


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## EastSea

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Wu Yue was once of the heart land of Bai Yue's civilization, but they decided to join the union of Hua Xia, so it is now China's territory.
> 
> But some oversea Viets are claiming the entire South China, which is too far fetched for the reality.



Wu Yue was first Kinhdom of Bai Yue people. 越王句踐, CouJian was great Emperor in China history. and also in according to Đại Việt sử lược (大越史略), Cou Jian was sended envoy to Hung King of Van Lang to establish the ally to counter Ngô Phù Sai: 吳夫差. Hung King of Van Lang refused the proposal.


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## Okemos

Grand Historian said:


> Notice how EastSea is trying to claim Southern China with an unproven myth(Hung Kings) and he cherry picks information when it suits him.
> 
> He mentions An Nam Chi Luoc yet he fails to mention that the author doesn't even mention the Xich Quy,Van Lang or the Hung kings.
> 
> Furthermore he has failed to provide the quotation in Hanzi,



Sometimes I don't know how some so called sinologists can even do research if they don't know Chinese, let alone be able to read original source books. I mean educated high school Chinese students can probably read Shi Maqian's "Record of the Grand Historian," while I dare say majority of sinologists cannot. How do they do research? lol Do they just quote from each other's books, which are probably adaptions and translations, and then add a bit of their thoughts, or more precisely revisionist imaginations?

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## ChineseTiger1986

EastSea said:


> Wu Yue was first Kinhdom of Bai Yue people. 越王句踐, CouJian was great Emperor in China history. and also in according to Đại Việt sử lược (大越史略), Cou Jian was sended envoy to Hung King of Van Lang to establish the ally to counter Ngô Phù Sai: 吳夫差. Hung King of Van Lang refused the proposal.



Both Goujian and Fuchai were Bai Yue, but they always believed the Hua Xia culture was superior and they were the biggest Hua Xia wannabes by themselves.

They both wanted to be part of Hua Xia, why you are trying to against the will of these two Bai Yue Kings?


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## EastSea

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Vietnam is always trying to hide their true ambition.
> 
> They first want to claim the entire South China Sea and to unite Southeast Asia. With the available rich natural resources, they will eventually grow stronger and try to claim the entire South China.
> 
> I am not surprised that their government is already spreading the propaganda to their ultra-nationalists that the entire South China belongs to Vietnam, and it should be taken back in the future generation.



It is not true, bro. 

Vietnam claim Islands in Jiao Zhi sea only, which belong to us following rules of international law. Vietnamese controlled Islands from many hindered years in the past. We didn't have troubles with China until KMT's claim it, very recently.

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## Lux de Veritas

The genetist claims that SE Asia to North East Asia migration may not contradict the anthropologist claim to North East Asia migration to SE Asia.

It appears that the proto people migrated from India, enter SE Asia through Myanmmar, from the inference of genetist. Date is 60,000 BP. From Myammar, the gene spread to SE Asia and E Asia. That is the first wave.

There are later wave of migration from East Asia to SE Asia. The anthropologist state that Malay started migrating from Taiwan around 5000-6000BP. So the next wave starting from Taiwan could have spread Malay throughout Oceania. The Thai start moving to SE Asia 1500BP. Meanwhile Burmese move to present day Myanmar.


*Below, some Chinese admit they came from SE Asia*







*Migration of Malay.*






*Migration of Thai
*
History of Thailand - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Wiki states
Prior to the southwards migration of the Thai people from Yunnan in the 10th century, the Indochina peninsula had been a home to various indigenous animistic communities for as far back as 500,000 years ago.
.....

The most recent and accurate theory about the origin of the Tai people stipulates that Guangxi province in China is really the Tai motherland instead ofYunnan province. A large number of Tai people, known as the Zhuang, still live in Guangxi today. Around 700 AD, Tai people who did not come under Chinese influence settled in what is now Dien Bien Phu in modern Vietnam according to the Khun Borom legend. From there, the Tais began to radiate into northern highlands and founded the cities of Luang Prabang and Chiang Saen.

*Migration of Bamar*

From Wiki
Bamar people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Bamar are of East Asian descent, and speak a Sino-Tibetan language (related to Tibetan, and more distantly to Chinese). They migrated from the present day Yunnan in China into the Irrawaddy River valley in Upper Burma about 1200–1500 years ago. Over the last millennium, they have largely replaced/absorbed the Mon and the earlier Pyu, ethnic groups that formerly dominated the Ayeyarwady valley

*Peopling of SE Asia and Southern Chinese*

Earlier wave of migration suggested by genetist that human move from SE Asia to China. But historically evidences indicates that there is a reverse migration, from the East to SE Asia.

Migration pattern of East Asia and SE Asia are still a contention topic. The ancient people of Southern China moved to SE Asia and dominated them linguistically and culturally in later stage. They produced mestizo. While the remaining people of Southern China mixed with Northern Chinese.

Looking at Cavalli-Sforza, Northern Chinese are indeed far apart from Southern Chinese.

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## EastSea

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Both Goujian and Fuchai were Bai Yue, but they always believed the Hua Xia culture was superior and they were the biggest Hua Xia wannabes by themselves.
> 
> They both wanted to be part of Hua Xia, why you are trying to against the will of these two Bai Yue Kings?



It was self determination of your ancestors, I and you, we can not change it now. Problem is debated now here on forum, it is just because you clam youself are Han in ethnicity. My idea, it is wrong. You could be Wu Yue in ethnic group, in the country called China today. Wu Yue is your true identity.


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## Lux de Veritas

The Yue in Chinese history does not refer to Kinhs. It is just a general term for the Southern people. We know there are still many tribes in Southern China, like Kinhs, Hmong, Zhuang, Thai, Derung, Nu, Kachin, Malay.....etc.

The Chinese history book are not able to identify them one by one. They call them Baiyue, means hundred Yue people.


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## Grand Historian

EastSea said:


> Wu Yue was first Kinhdom of Bai Yue people. 越王句踐, CouJian was great Emperor in China history. and also in according to Đại Việt sử lược (大越史略), Cou Jian was sended envoy to Hung King of Van Lang to establish the ally to counter Ngô Phù Sai: 吳夫差. Hung King of Van Lang refused the proposal.


Goujian was never emperor,Qin Shihuang was the first to use this title.

Show the quote in Hanzi first.

Notice how 吳越春秋,越絕書,史記 etc never mention this event.

Most likely its a fabrication unless you can prove otherwise.

EastSea you're contributing nothing to the thread except aggravating Chinese members.

Labeling modern day Han Chinese as Baiyue doesn't make any sense whatsoever.


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## EastSea

at beginning statement of Đại Việt sử lược ( 大越史略), and _Đại Việt sử ký toàn thư_ ( 大越史記全書), it stated:

"when huangdi (god) created many countries, looked at Jiao Zhi people, who is outside of Bai Yue ...". It mean, from ancient time our ancestors did not considered themselves belong to Bai Yue.

However, the statement about the Van Lang and Xich Quy Kingdom, it was stated that North point of Van Lang is reached to Dongding lake in China. Our ancient land was in Southern land of China today.


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## Grand Historian

EastSea said:


> at beginning statement of Đại Việt sử lược ( 大越史略), and _Đại Việt sử ký toàn thư_ ( 大越史記全書), it stated:
> 
> "when huangdi (god) created many countries, looked at Jiao Zhi people, who is outside of Bai Yue ...". It mean, from ancient time our ancestors did not considered themselves belong to Bai Yue.
> 
> However, the statement about the Van Lang and Xich Quy Kingdom, it was stated that North point of Van Lang is reached to Dongding lake in China. Our ancient land was in Southern land of China today.


Show the quotes in Hanzi.

Where do these books quote the information from?

For the umpteenth time show relevant textual records(books written 1000 years later is hardly objective) and archaeological proof. 

Your irredentism is getting on my nerves,look back at my older posts to see why your legends are simply fabrications.


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## EastSea

Grand Historian said:


> Goujian was never emperor,Qin Shihuang was the first to use this title.
> 
> Show the quote in Hanzi first.
> 
> Notice how 吳越春秋,越絕書,史記 etc never mention this event.
> 
> Most likely its a fabrication unless you can prove otherwise.
> 
> EastSea you're contributing nothing to the thread except aggravating Chinese members.
> 
> Labeling modern day Han Chinese as Baiyue doesn't make any sense whatsoever.



Emperor is the King in his country, where he is reigned in highest position of ruling system, not for all territories of China in ancient time. 

if you like, I can change the English word "Emperor" to the "King". King Goujian's reign in conflict of the Spring and Autumn Period, the struggle between Wu and Yue, wherein he eventually led his state to victory, annexing the rival. As such King Goujian is sometimes considered the last of the Five Hegemons. 

There was the first Kingdom of Bai Yue people in China history.


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## Grand Historian

EastSea said:


> Emperor is the King in his country, where he is reigned in highest position of ruling system, not for all territories of China in ancient time.
> 
> if you like, I can change the English word "Emperor" to the "King". King Goujian's reign in conflict of the Spring and Autumn Period, the struggle between Wu and Yue, wherein he eventually led his state to victory, annexing the rival. As such King Goujian is sometimes considered the last of the Five Hegemons.
> 
> There was the first Kingdom of Bai Yue people in China history.


No,during Goujian's era there was no concept of Huangdi only Wang you're free to prove otherwise.

Why are you avoiding my questions?

You either have proof or you don't.

Either way YuYue has absolutely nothing to do with Vietnam.


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## ChineseTiger1986

EastSea said:


> It was self determination of your ancestors, I and you, we can not change it now. Problem is debated now here on forum, it is just because you clam youself are Han in ethnicity. My idea, it is wrong. You could be Wu Yue in ethnic group, in the country called China today. Wu Yue is your true identity.



Why the Bai Yue identity is so important to you?


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## EastSea

Lux de Veritas said:


> The Yue in Chinese history does not refer to Kinhs. It is just a general term for the Southern people. We know there are still many tribes in Southern China, like Kinhs, Hmong, Zhuang, Thai, Derung, Nu, Kachin, Malay.....etc.
> 
> The Chinese history book are not able to identify them one by one. They call them Baiyue, means hundred Yue people.



when Chinese scholars mentioned about Bai Yue people, there was no " Kinh people " existed, there was Mon/Muong people was identified, who belong to Austria-Asiatic people is existed like H'mong Mien, Baipu... They were in South China in the time of Bai Yue is recognized by Chinese historian.

Vietnamese/Kinh people is became separated from Mon/Muong people from 1,300 years ago.


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## EastSea

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Why the Bai Yue identity is so important to you?



because the name of "Viet" in Vietnamese or Yue in Chinese is worldwide accepted for us, to Vietnam and to Vietnamese. So why, oversea Vietnamese and part of us to day living in Vietnam, they think that it mean the country Nam Yue is belong to us.

When you read our History Book *Đại Việt sử lược* (大越史略), Nan Yue is considered as Kingdom of Vietnam. late on, the history book *Đại Việt sử ký toàn thư* (大越史記全書), has been corrected that there is "Outside domination period".


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## ChineseTiger1986

EastSea said:


> because the name of "Viet" in Vietnamese or Yue in Chinese is worldwide accepted for us, to Vietnam and to Vietnamese. So why, oversea Vietnamese and part of us to day living in Vietnam, they think that it mean the country Nam Yue is belong to us.
> 
> When you read our History Book *Đại Việt sử lược* (大越史略), Nan Yue is considered as Kingdom of Vietnam. late on, the history book *Đại Việt sử ký toàn thư* (大越史記全書), has been corrected that there is "Outside domination period".



According to the history of Dai Viet, this is your territory Van Lang.


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## INDIC

EastSea said:


> It is not true, bro.
> 
> Vietnam claim Islands in Jiao Zhi sea only, which belong to us following rules of international law. Vietnamese controlled Islands from many hindered years in the past. We didn't have troubles with China until KMT's claim it, very recently.



I heard southern Hans prefer the term Tang people to Han people because Tang dynasty assimilated them as Sinitic people.


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## ChineseTiger1986

INDIC said:


> I heard southern Hans prefer the term Tang people to Han people because Tang dynasty assimilated them as Sinitic people.



Tang only applies to the oversea Chinese, because Tang has the same pronunciation of the word "town" from Chinatown.


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## Lux de Veritas

INDIC said:


> I heard southern Hans prefer the term Tang people to Han people because Tang dynasty assimilated them as Sinitic people.



The Southern Chinese such as Min Nan (Taiwanese) and Cantonese self identify as Tang people 唐人 while the "Han" is more common in Mandarin. I do not know the other lect, so I would not comment much.

For Min Nan, I have NEVER came across the term of Han, not just in Singapore, but in Taiwan and China. We pronounce Tang people in a slightly differently way, Deng Lang 唐人 in Min Nan(Taiwanese) .

I went to school, and "learned" that I am Han people (汉人). That is not surprising given that Southern Chinese and Northern Chinese mix with different tribe and are quite non homogeneous people. We use different set of lexicon and pronounce differently and even grammar can be very different.


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## Viet

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Vietnam is always trying to hide their true ambition.
> 
> They first want to claim the entire South China Sea and to unite Southeast Asia.


partly true. historically VN as a nation aims to become as rich and mighty as China. the intention behind this move is primarily is to protect itself before China. for self-defence. so actually you are more or less the main motif for nearly all Vietnamese moves in the region, be territorial southward expansion, be seeking the domination of Laos and Cambodia and beyond.

VN never has intentions to invade China (VN is not Japan). our focus is not the North, but East, South and West. Staying independent is our main goal.


ChineseTiger1986 said:


> With the available rich natural resources, they will eventually grow stronger and try to claim the entire South China.
> 
> I am not surprised that their *government *is already spreading the propaganda to their ultra-nationalists that the entire South China belongs to Vietnam, and it should be taken back in the future generation.


show me any evidence that VN government does a such thing?
as far as I know even the so-called "ultra-nationalists" never claim to take back Southern of China today. more Chinese propaganda than reality.


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## Lux de Veritas

The differences between Northern and Southern Chinese can be very big and can be shown if we select example carefully. However we can always choose sentence formations to show there are similar. Nevertheless, Mandarin, Cantonese and Min Nan/Taiwanese are 3 sinitic lect within the Sinitic language family and are 100% mutually unintelligible.

For that reason, if Taiwan goes independent, she will "enshrine" Taiwanese and tell everyone that "Taiwanese" is a separate race from Chinese.

She is very beautiful

*Mandarin*
她很美。
ta hen mei

*Min Nan/Taiwanese*
伊真媠。
yi jin sui

*Cantonese*
佢好靓
kuoi ho leng

*Japanese *
彼女は非常に美しいです
kano-jo wa hijo ni utsuku-shi-yi desu.


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## Viet

Lux de Veritas said:


> The *Yue *in Chinese history does not refer to *Kinhs*. It is just a general term for the Southern people. We know there are still many tribes in Southern China, like Kinhs, Hmong, Zhuang, Thai, Derung, Nu, Kachin, Malay.....etc.
> 
> The Chinese history book are not able to identify them one by one. They call them Baiyue, means hundred Yue people.


the term Kinh came much later (centuries) when the Viet regained independence from the Han. Kinh refers to ethnic Viet, to distinguish the Viet from other tribes in Vietnam such as Tay, Tai, Hoa or Hmong.

Yue is an ancient term.


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## Viet

Lux de Veritas said:


> The differences between Northern and Southern Chinese can be very big and can be shown if we select example carefully. However we can always choose sentence formations to show there are similar. Nevertheless, Mandarin, Cantonese and Min Nan/Taiwanese are 3 sinitic lect within the Sinitic language family and are 100% mutually unintelligible.
> 
> For that reason, if Taiwan goes independent, she will "enshrine" Taiwanese and tell everyone that "Taiwanese" is a separate race from Chinese.
> 
> She is very beautiful
> 
> *Mandarin*
> 她很美。
> ta hen mei
> 
> *Min Nan/Taiwanese*
> 伊真媠。
> yi jin sui
> 
> *Cantonese*
> 佢好靓
> kuoi ho leng
> 
> *Japanese *
> 彼女は非常に美しいです
> kano-jo wa hijo ni utsuku-shi-yi desu.


that surprises me a bit of the big difference between Mandarin and Cantonese. I thought they were closer.


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## Lux de Veritas

Viet said:


> that surprises me a bit of the big difference between Mandarin and Cantonese. I thought they were closer.



There are several Chinese commenters who make examples to show that they are close. Nowadays, I would not want to rebut them in their face. What they have shown can be a mis-information, but as I Southern Chinese, I will say their examples are perfectly right, nevertheless, trying to mislead.

If I go and rebut, these PRC could get so irrational that they make an all out war with me.

The better understanding of Mandarin, Cantonese and Min Nan/Taiwanese is

they are 100% mutually unintelligible.
The colloquial lexicon and grammar can be very different.
The literal lexicon could be much more similar. Just like Vietnamese and Korean, literal part of their languages are much more similar to Mandarin.
Nevertheless, there are a lot of overlap between Northern and Southern Chinese lexicon that make it a Chinese language. I believe if Vietnam and Korea are ruled by China as long as us, both the language will be purge of alien components and get very converge to Chinese.
There may be barely such things as literal Cantonese, as Cantonese can pronounce mandarin sentences and lexicon using their phonetics and tones. So that is one factor that make Cantonese very Chinese.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Viet said:


> *partly true. historically VN as a nation aims to become as rich and mighty as China.* the intention behind this move is primarily is to protect itself before China. for self-defence. so actually you are more or less the main motif for nearly all Vietnamese moves in the region, be territorial southward expansion, be seeking the domination of Laos and Cambodia and beyond.
> 
> VN never has intentions to invade China (VN is not Japan). our focus is not the North, but East, South and West. Staying independent is our main goal.
> 
> show me any evidence that VN government does a such thing?
> as far as I know even the so-called "ultra-nationalists" never claim to take back Southern of China today. more Chinese propaganda than reality.



Even you have successfully united the entire Indo-China, you will still not on the same league with China.

So no wonder you Viet Ultra-Nationalists are now eyeing the South China, since you initial goal is always to displace China.

So i suggest you don't try to act like Japan, to overstretch your capability won't end up good for you. East Asia's master will always be China, all you fellow East Asian nations' role is to assist China, not trying to usurp China.


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## INDIC

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Tang only applies to the oversea Chinese, because Tang has the same pronunciation of the word "town" from Chinatown.



But most of the overseas Chinese are Cantonese. You sure about Tang originating from Town because they don't sound similar.


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## Lux de Veritas

Viet said:


> that surprises me a bit of the big difference between Mandarin and Cantonese. I thought they were closer.



The example I cite just now is colloquial Cantonese and Taiwanese/Min Nan. The Cantonese can read out a standard mandarin article and everyone will still understand it perfectly. In fact, that is the way all official documents are crafted today in Hong Kong, as well as all serious newspaper and magazine are written.

The Min Nan is much less developed literally and for me, it is very hard to listen or read an entire mandarin article in Min Nan.



INDIC said:


> But most of overseas Chinese are Cantonese. You sure about Tang originating from Town because they don't sound similar.



Tang originated from Tang dynasty (唐朝), while Han is from Han Dynasty (汉朝)。

The Min Nan uses Tang exclusively while Cantonese use both Tang and Han, the former more common and colloquial. Other than that, there is a more recent term like tiong kok lang (中国人) used by Min Nan. The Cantonese also use 华人 （wa yan）, but extremely seldom heard in Min Nan/Taiwanese using this term.

The traditional way is Tang people for Min Nan and Cantonese. The literal "Min Nan" language will have Han people but that is never colloquial.

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## ChineseTiger1986

INDIC said:


> But most of the overseas Chinese are Cantonese. You sure about Tang originating from Town because they don't sound similar.



He is cherrypicking.

In fact, Cantonese and Mandarin are pretty close to each other, just like Dutch to Low German.

Cantonese Mandarin
你可唔可以话卑我知? 你可不可以告诉我? Can you tell it to me?
你係唔係讲笑？ 你是不是开玩笑？ Are you kidding?
我唔识得你 我不认识你 I don't recognize you.


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## jkroo

Great, so many abroad people research history of China. So, whats the result? Can someone draw a conclusion? Is there anyone research Confucius and Yi Jing? I bet that will be better for you.


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## ChineseTiger1986

jkroo said:


> Great, so many abroad people research history of China. So, whats the result? Can someone draw a conclusion? Is there anyone research Confucius and Yi Jing? I bet that will be better for you.



According to the Viet Ultra-Nationalists, Yi Jing was a Viet invention, while Kongfuzi copied the idea from the Viet.


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## EastSea

Grand Historian said:


> No,during Goujian's era there was no concept of Huangdi only Wang you're free to prove otherwise.
> 
> Why are you avoiding my questions?
> 
> You either have proof or you don't.
> 
> Either way YuYue has absolutely nothing to do with Vietnam.



nothing to avoid here, it is the debate in English, not in Chinese.

King Goujian of Yue State defeated Fuchai's King of Wu state and united Wu Yue the first kingdom of Bai Yue people in their history. He should been called as Emperor of WuYue. This story is similar to GiaLong Emperor who united Vietnam, in English he is called as Gia Long Emperor of Nguyen Dynasty of Vietnam.

and more, WuYue had something to do with Vietnam in ancient time when King Goujian ordered envoy to Hung King to establish the ally to counter King Fuchai of Wu. Its reported by Đại Việt sử lược (大越史略),


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## Viet

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Even you have successfully united the entire Indo-China, you will still not on the same league with China.
> 
> So no wonder you Viet Ultra-Nationalists are now eyeing the South China,* since you initial goal is always to displace China.*
> 
> So i suggest you don't try to act like Japan, to overstretch your capability won't end up good for you. East Asia's master will always be China, all you fellow East Asian nations' role is to assist China, not trying to usurp China.


that is the root of all the problems, you misunderstand the intention of Vietnam.
we follow Chinese model and adopt it in Vietnam, not to displace, neither replace China. East Asia is not our focus.

the Viet emperors paid tributes to the Han as a sign of submission. When VN stepped out of its own border, we mainly wanted to restore peace and public order in the region.


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## EastSea

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> According to the history of Dai Viet, this is your territory Van Lang.



In ancient time period of Hong Bang Thi and Xich Quy, before 3,000 year BCE, Tonkin Delta is under sea level.

Kinh Duong Vuong and Xich Quy was in mainland of South China, including Lingnan and south of Dongding lake.

Lịch sử Việt Nam – Wikipedia tiếng Việt

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## sincity

China and Viet Nam no longer have land dispute but only sea dispute, what the point to discuss the history of China and Viet Nam. The map already draw up and accept by both country no reason to further debate this subject. India and China still have land dispute therefore the history of India and China more relevance.


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## jkroo

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> According to the Viet Ultra-Nationalists, Yi Jing was a Viet invention, while Kongfuzi copied the idea from the Viet.


So I think some VN people would like to share a brief point of view with a fellow countryman of China like me so that I can learn more about our neighbor. From an educational or a religous point of view. Study Confucius and Yi Jing will always do good to people.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Viet said:


> that is the root of all the problems, you misunderstand the intention of Vietnam.
> we follow Chinese model and adopt it in Vietnam, not to displace, neither replace China. East Asia is not our focus.
> 
> the Viet emperors paid tributes to the Han as a sign of submission. When VN stepped out of its own border, we mainly wanted to restore peace and public order in the region.



We already got our lesson from Japan, so we have to be careful with those ambitious small Asian tigers.

Who knows if you guys will bite us if we are getting weak.

Meanwhile most of you Viet members here took Japan as your role model, it is even getting more suspicious here about your initial intention.


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## Lux de Veritas

Both Fuchai and Goujian may not be "Chinese". Not only that the ancient Yangtzu river Chu kingdom 楚国 may not be "Chinese". The Chinese historical text say 楚子荆蛮， （Chu are barbarian）, 南蛮鸟舌之人 (talk like a bird, meaning the language is quite different). That was BC300.

Even Sichuan is very non Chinese at relatively late stage，AD300. There is 7 campaign by Zhuge Liang 诸葛亮 against the "barbarian"。

Yunnan is very non Chinese until today.


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## Viet

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> According to the Viet Ultra-Nationalists, Yi Jing was a Viet invention, while Kongfuzi copied the idea from the Viet.


another Chinese propaganda


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## EastSea

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> According to the Viet Ultra-Nationalists, Yi Jing was a Viet invention, while Kongfuzi copied the idea from the Viet.



You can discuss with Korean forumers. very sad that member with the nick Korean is banned.


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## ChineseTiger1986

EastSea said:


> nothing to avoid here, it is the debate in English, not in Chinese.
> 
> King Goujian of Yue State defeated Fuchai's King of Wu state and united Wu Yue the first kingdom of Bai Yue people in their history. He should been called as Emperor of WuYue. This story is similar to GiaLong Emperor who united Vietnam, in English he is called as Gia Long Emperor of Nguyen Dynasty of Vietnam.
> 
> and more, WuYue had something to do with Vietnam in ancient time when King Goujian ordered envoy to Hung King to establish the ally to counter King Fuchai of Wu. Its reported by Đại Việt sử lược (大越史略),



This Van Lang has nothing to do with the Van Lang from Vietnam, but Yue State of Goujian, since they always called themselves Van Lang.



EastSea said:


> You can discuss with Korean forumers. very sad that member with the nick Korean is banned.



Korea is just another delusional country who dreams to become as big as China one day.

It is a waste of time to talk with these people.



EastSea said:


> In ancient time period of Hong Bang Thi and Xich Quy, before 3,000 year BCE, Tonkin Delta is under sea level.
> 
> Kinh Duong Vuong and Xich Quy was in mainland of South China, including Lingnan and south of Dongding lake.
> 
> Lịch sử Việt Nam – Wikipedia tiếng Việt



Vietnam's Van Lang is from North Vietnam, while the Van Lang from South China Yue State of Goujian, it has nothing to do with Vietnam.


----------



## EastSea

Lux de Veritas said:


> Both Fuchai and Goujian may not be "Chinese". Not only that the ancient Yangtzu river Chu kingdom 楚国 may not be "Chinese". The Chinese historical text say 楚子荆蛮， （Chu are barbarian）, 南蛮鸟舌之人 (talk like a bird, meaning the language is quite different). That was BC300.
> 
> Even Sichuan is very non Chinese at relatively late stage，AD300. There is 7 campaign by Zhuge Liang 诸葛亮 against the "barbarian"。
> 
> Yunnan is very non Chinese until today.



so why I said that 92% of China population is Han in one ethnicity group, its wrong.


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

EastSea said:


> so why I said that 92% of China population is Han in one ethnicity group, its wrong.



Goujian said he is Van Lang, but he wants to become Hua Xia, so you can't force him to against his will.


----------



## Viet

Lux de Veritas said:


> Both Fuchai and Goujian may not be "Chinese". Not only that the ancient Yangtzu river Chu kingdom 楚国 may not be "Chinese". The Chinese historical text say 楚子荆蛮， （Chu are barbarian）, 南蛮鸟舌之人 (talk like a bird, meaning the language is quite different). That was BC300.
> 
> Even Sichuan is very non Chinese at relatively late stage，AD300. There is 7 campaign by Zhuge Liang 诸葛亮 against the "barbarian"。
> 
> Yunnan is very non Chinese until today.


not surprisingly.

the history of China is a history of conquest, being conquested and assimilation. If theoretically China invades the Philippines today, occupies it and integrates into China. After the Pinoys become sinized, they are Chinese tomorrow. 

barbarian today Chinese tomorrow. lol


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

Viet said:


> not surprisingly.
> 
> the history of China is a history of conquest, being conquested and assimilation. If theoretically China invades the Philippines today, occupies it and integrates into China. After the Pinoys become sinized, they are Chinese tomorrow.
> 
> barbarian today Chinese tomorrow. lol



Bad example, since China never wants to fully sinicize Vietnam and Korea.


----------



## EastSea

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> This Van Lang has nothing to do with the Van Lang from Vietnam, but Yue State of Goujian, since they always called themselves Van Lang.
> 
> 
> 
> Korea is just another delusional country who dreams to become as big as China one day.
> 
> It is a waste of time to talk with these people.
> 
> 
> 
> Vietnam's Van Lang is from North Vietnam, while the Van Lang from South China Yue State of Goujian, it has nothing to do with Vietnam.



But our history book *Đại Việt sử lược* (chữ Hán: 大越史略), it said that Van lang is in Lingnan and south of Dongding lake.


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

EastSea said:


> But our history book *Đại Việt sử lược* (chữ Hán: 大越史略), it said that Van lang is in Lingnan and south of Dongding lake.



The area around Dongting Lake is the homeland of Mao Zedong, didn't know he is also a Viet, lol.


----------



## EastSea

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> This Van Lang has nothing to do with the Van Lang from Vietnam, but Yue State of Goujian, since they always called themselves Van Lang.



Its very interesting.



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The area around Dongting Lake is the homeland of Mao Zedong, didn't know he is also a Viet, lol.



He is Xiang in original, not Han and Viet. LoL


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

EastSea said:


> He is Xiang in original, not Han and Viet. LoL



That's why his homestate cannot be Viet's historical territory.


----------



## Viet

jkroo said:


> Great, so many abroad people research history of China. So, whats the result? Can someone draw a conclusion? Is there anyone research *Confucius *and Yi Jing? I bet that will be better for you.


I can tell you that for centuries Confucius had been the state doctrine of imperial Vietnam as everyone knew their place in the society. everyone knew their role how to act. that included the emperor.

here is a pic of the main gate to the Confucius temple in Hanoi, built in 1070 at the time of the Viet King Lý Nhân Tông. it is one of many temples dedicated to Confucius. for nearly 1,000 years state imperial exams were held here, selecting the best Mandarins for administration.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Lux de Veritas

Viet said:


> not surprisingly.
> 
> the history of China is a history of conquest, being conquested and assimilation. If theoretically China invades the Philippines today, occupies it and integrates into China. After the Pinoys become sinized, they are Chinese tomorrow.
> 
> barbarian today Chinese tomorrow. lol



That is the same as all civilization including Vietnam vs Champa. 

Right now, for Sino Tibetan, and to a greater extend yellow people, the future hinge on China. Or yellow people want to join India. Look at Manipur, Sikkim, South Tibet..etc

The white man is good to minorities only in certain countries. Today South America has a caste system whereby European shit on native Americans. Who knows USA may develop into caste system.


----------



## EastSea

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> That's why his homestate cannot be Viet's historical territory.



we are talking about ancient prehistory of both nation.



Lux de Veritas said:


> That is the same as all civilization including Vietnam vs Champa.
> 
> Right now, for Sino Tibetan, and to a greater extend yellow people, the future hinge on China. Or yellow people want to join India. Look at Manipur, Sikkim, South Tibet..etc
> 
> The white man is good to minorities only in certain countries. Today South America has a caste system whereby European shit on native Americans. Who knows USA may develop into caste system.



problem is that: what is China dream ?


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

EastSea said:


> we are talking about ancient prehistory of both nation.



Well, he is native and he is Han, of course Dongting Lake belongs to Hua Xia.



EastSea said:


> problem is that: what is China dream ?



China to become rich and powerful, what is the problem here?


----------



## Viet

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> *Bad example*, since China never wants to fully sinicize *Vietnam *and Korea.


bad memory, remember of the Ming conquest of Vietnam in year 1407?

after Vietnam/Jiaozhi was forcibly returned to imperial China, all Viet related indigenous books, cultures and custom were banned or burnt. only Chinese stuffs were allowed.


----------



## EastSea

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Well, he is native and he is Han, of course Dongting Lake belongs to Hua Xia.
> 
> 
> 
> China to become rich and powerful, what is the problem here?



China will be more strong, but don't robe our Islands. hand back Paracel for us.


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## ChineseTiger1986

Viet said:


> bad memory, remember of the Ming conquest of Vietnam in year 1407?
> 
> after Vietnam/Jiaozhi was forcibly returned to imperial China, all Viet related indigenous books, cultures and custom were banned or burnt. only Chinese stuffs were allowed.



You are still not getting fully sinicized, end of story.



EastSea said:


> China will be more strong, but don't robe our Islands.



China is fighting for the tomorrow of Asia, and you should be grateful that your big brother is now protecting you from another US invasion.



EastSea said:


> hand back Paracel for us.



Xisha is China's sovereignty, it is geographically closer to Hainan than to Vietnam, why it should belong to you?


----------



## EastSea

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> You are still not getting fully sinicized, end of story.
> 
> 
> 
> China is fighting for the tomorrow of Asia, and you should be grateful that your big brother is now protecting you from another US invasion.
> 
> 
> 
> Xisha is China's sovereignty, it is geographically closer to Hainan than to Vietnam, why it should belong to you?



Invasion of US in cold war is old story.

Paracel is in middle of both, but Vietnam controlled Islands long time ago. we didn't have trouble with China in the past. Nine dash claiming of KMT 1948 is illegal.

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## Viet

sincity said:


> China and Viet Nam no longer have land dispute but only sea dispute, what the point to discuss the history of China and Viet Nam. The map already draw up and accept by both country no reason to further debate this subject. India and China still have land dispute therefore the *history of India and China* more relevance.


if it comes to a debate of history, there are much of similarities/discrepancies, rivalies/cooperations, friend/enemy, big brother/small brother, similar cultures and custom, government systems between CN and VN. we can debate about things starting from today and going back to 3,000 years ago. Not sure if you can do same thing with CN and IN.

anyway I think it is a good idea to start a conservation on history of China and India.


----------



## jkroo

> here is a pic of the main gate to the Confucius temple in Hanoi


Its good that you people worship Confucius and even good if you practise it. Changing world need changing mind and people should adapt for it. Thats why Yi Jing is important.
If you people want to talk about history of China, show your respect. Actually reality is even more cruel than what you think.


----------



## EastSea

jkroo said:


> Its good that you people worship Confucius and even good if you practise it. Changing world need changing mind and people should adapt for it. Thats why Yi Jing is important.
> If you people want to talk about history of China, show your respect. Actually reality is even more cruel than what you think.



I think corruption will destroy China, not china's enemy. rise and fall is rule of our both history. is that the Yi Jing theory ?


----------



## jkroo

Lux de Veritas said:


> Both Fuchai and Goujian may not be "Chinese". Not only that the ancient Yangtzu river Chu kingdom 楚国 may not be "Chinese". The Chinese historical text say 楚子荆蛮， （Chu are barbarian）, 南蛮鸟舌之人 (talk like a bird, meaning the language is quite different). That was BC300.
> 
> Even Sichuan is very non Chinese at relatively late stage，AD300. There is 7 campaign by Zhuge Liang 诸葛亮 against the "barbarian"。
> 
> Yunnan is very non Chinese until today.


Teach you a lesson son, 
1. do homework and search “蚩尤” if you can.
2. you have a badly delusion and you mixed the ethnic and nationality up.
3.do your best to act as a qualified troll.


----------



## jkroo

EastSea said:


> I think corruption will destroy China, not china's enemy. rise and fall is rule of our both history. is that the Yi Jing theory ?


China will be more stable than before. Its your cruel reality.
I am happy and need to thank EastSea and Viet that show how Vn people educated and act. Good for many Chinese viewers.


----------



## EastSea

jkroo said:


> China will be more stable than before. Its your cruel reality.
> I am happy and need to thank EastSea and Viet that show how Vn people educated and act. Good for many Chinese viewers.



Mr. Xi said: China have to cut his hand to rescue the body. Is this right ?


----------



## jkroo

EastSea said:


> Mr. Xi said: China have to cut his hand to rescue the body. Is this right ?


壮士断腕，刮骨疗伤

Haha, I think you never know what is mean right? Show how you educated because you have some culture background.


----------



## Lux de Veritas

jkroo said:


> Teach you a lesson son,
> 1. do homework and search “蚩尤” if you can.
> 2. you have a badly delusion and you mixed the ethnic and nationality up.
> 3.do your best to act as a qualified troll.



Thank you. You think I don't know Chi You?


----------



## jkroo

To those VN people.

Though I am new herw, from this thread I know something list below, correct me if wrong:

1. FROM A HISTORY PERSPECTIVE. You people repeatedly claim that VN is independ

2.You VN people claim that the terrority of 
3southern China belongs to VN by VNs
historic book.

3.You VN people wish China collapse.

Right?


----------



## INDIC

@Fattyacids @faithfulguy This thread seems to be very informative. Put your views here.


----------



## Viet

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> You are still not getting *fully sinicized,* end of story.


what is fully sinicized? the Viets are more sinic than those of your bothers and sisters in Tibet and Xinjang. lol
by the way, did I mention the cultural destruction under Mao Zedong? You intentionally destroyed cultural heritage for the sake of nothing.


ChineseTiger1986 said:


> *China is fighting for the tomorrow of Asia*, and you should be grateful that your big brother is now protecting you from another US invasion.


no thanks. we can take care of ourselves. the likelyhood that America invades Vietnam again is much much much lower than of China. so pls keep your vessels and jets at bay. we are no longer in the cold war. luckily.


ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Xisha is *China's sovereignty*, it is geographically closer to Hainan than to Vietnam, why it should belong to you?


that is disputed. but well, status quo is the best solution yet until a solution for both sides has been worked out. be by a war or by peaceful means. I suggest you control Paracels, we Spratlys, both share control of the sea lane 50:50. same share for CN and VN about the sea resources 50:50.


----------



## Viet

jkroo said:


> To those VN people.
> 
> Though I am new herw, from this thread I know something list below, correct me if wrong:
> 
> 1. FROM A HISTORY PERSPECTIVE. You people repeatedly claim that VN is independ
> 
> 2.You VN people claim that the terrority of
> 3southern China belongs to VN by VNs
> historic book.
> 
> 3.You VN people wish China collapse.
> 
> Right?


I see you are quick to draw a conclusion.
1. yes, that is right we fight for independence, like China fights for its right to be independent and free from slavery.
2. history debate, no claim of Chinese territory today
3. do I have a wish?

welcome to the forum, and happy new year


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

Viet said:


> that is disputed. but well, status quo is the best solution yet until a solution for both sides has been worked out. be by a war or by peaceful means. I suggest you control Paracels, we Spratlys, both share control of the sea lane 50:50. same share for CN and VN about the sea resources 50:50.



You should be happy if China has the mood to maintain the status quo, asking to return the islands is simply too much.


----------



## Speeder 2

Happy Chinese New Year to you ALL!!!






Lux de Veritas said:


> If population of vanquished are exterminated 99%, then Northern China will be Mongols, Turks and Manchus. Also Y chromosome tell us that Chinese is from SE Asia.




It doesn’t disprove what I argued though. The Han built the Great Wall which protected them from the other northern nomads. So from the reverse angle, because the Han didn’t want their lands, Mongols and Manchus survived. If Northern Han determined to expand as North as possible at ANY expanses, the Mongols and Manchus would probably have been rooted out long ago. 


The Northern Han was and still is the major sub-race in the northern region, alongside with Mongols and Manchus, who mostly have been marginalised/assimilated by the former in the history. As for the Turks, they were chased away by the Northern Han to Central Asia. 

Your quote is only a theory based on one research suggesting that Chinese is from SE Asia. It’s not conclusive yet. This mainstream theory (by PC big name geneticists, and adopted by some Korean & Japanese ultra nationalists from Youtube) has a BIG loophole and it can be very well to be another way around that Han Chinese were from the North from the very start - both of which I’ll address later. 




Lux de Veritas said:


> If you look at Y Chromosome ONLY the migration pattern suggest the other way round. Not the northern Chinese begets Southern Chinese, but people in Southern Chinese give rise to Northern Chinese. The theory was put forward by PRC scholars more than anyone else.
> 
> However given the complicated waves of migration patterns of human being, it would be plausible that the earliest waves of human migration saw Northern Chinese branched out of Southern China tribe as a separate people. Later, Northern Chinese returned to the South.



No, evidences on the table could suggest either way. BUT, the loophole of the mainstream “South-to-North theory” is that it completely ignores and contradicts the average IQ of the people involved. It remains mainstream because no mainstream scientist dares to mention non-PC truth of IQ, so they don’t need to explain it.

1. it’s an almost commonly held belief that high IQ could only be evolved in the high altitude regions soon after the last Ice Age. High IQ of East Asians (and of NE Europeans, for that matter) was mainly formed during that time. This also insinuates that when “Out of Africa” (if it is true), the route of the ancestors of current NE Asians and NE Europeans was towards the far North, rather than seemingly “easy” Southern route via South Asia and/or SE Asia, because the temperatures there couldn’t explain Cold-Selected IQ level.

2. human IQ has evolved very “slowly” in time, e.g. A peer-reviewed research suggests that the last time that genes of North East Asians subject to natural selection was about 6,500 years ago coinciding with their large scale farming and city-building activities, which were generally deemed giving NE Asian average IQ a further boost. 

3. IQ works generally in a way that when tribe A (IQ=105) breeds with tribe B ( IQ=85), the offspring have avg IQ of 95 in time, the mid way; when tribe C (IQ=85) breeds with tribe B, the offspring still have avg IQ of 85, not 105, at least not within a span of thousands of years of drastically evolution under some extraordinary natural selection conditions.

4. In light of 1, 2 and 3, if Han Chinese was originally came to the North from SE Asia ( or saying that SE Asians and/or Southern Chinese “gave birth” to the Northern Chinese) were true, then it couldn’t explain:

A) why SE Asians have lower avg IQ than Northern Chinese, 

B) why “Southern”Chinese with almost identical IQ to the Northern Chinese today even if the former were not Cold-Selected at all, since they “originally came from the south”, and

C) how come that the offspring of SE Asians (indigenous, with avg IQ=85) and “Southern Chinese ( assume with IQ max.105 at a time, or closer to 85 according to the half-baked mainstream theory) became 105 (Northern Chinese) all of a sudden? 

PC-driven mainstream geneticists and anthropologists can not and dare not explain above obvious contradictions. 

Therefore, it suggests that only “North-to-South” migrations ( and invasions as we all know) could be the case. It is also the most logical one that fits into many well-documented history. 

As for the facts ( assume they are facts) that in some pockets of far south of China or Southern Tibet there seems to have more O3 concentration, it could well be due to some small waves of early Han Chinese migrations to the regions and later became isolated. They can’t serve as a conclusive evidence to suggest "South-to-north". 

Many such cases in history. e.g., actually I even can venture to argue that probably some “Southern Chinese” from some historically isolated mountainous regions of Western Sichuan province or Southern Hunan province are in fact MORE “Northern” than so-called “northern Chinese”, simply because the “Southern Chinese” were originally likely from the north anyway and they married within thus remain “Nothern Chinese” by bloodline, while some of their “northern Chinese”counterparts whom have never lived in the South before are probably even non-Han with certain degrees of possible Manchu, Mongol or Turkish, etc admixtures for one reason or another.




Lux de Veritas said:


> Anthropologist suggest Southern Chinese are mestizo of Northern and locals, not entirely Northern.




mainstram Anthropologists are wrong, as explained above.





Lux de Veritas said:


> Also, it is conclusive that Thai, Malay and Burmese are from China.



This proves my point that most indigenous ppl of south china had either been rooted out or been chased off the region when they lost wars to the Han in ancient times, the similar happened to most northern China nomads.







Lux de Veritas said:


> …
> 
> Moreover, the East Asian dominant haplogroup O3a3c1-M117 shows a network structure similar to that of O3a3b-M7. * These patterns indicate an early unidirectional diffusion from Southeast Asia into East Asia * , which might have resulted from the genetic drift of East Asian ancestors carrying these two haplogroups through many small bottle-necks formed by the complicated landscape between Southeast Asia and East Asia. The ages of O3a3b-M7 and O3a3c1-M117 were estimated to be approximately 19 thousand years, followed by the emergence of the ancestors of HM lineages out of MK and the unidirectional northward migrations into East Asia.






I still can’t see any conclusive evidence why “unidirectional diffusion” and why must be “from Southeast Asia into East Asia”. Actually as I explained earlier, both logic and IQ seem to indicate that the other way around is much more likely the case, although it didn’t root out the possibility that some Han Chinese mated with indigenous women AFTER they migrated to the Southern China and SE Asia.

Don't fall for those graphs, Veritas. Any graph is based on data. If those original data source is wrong, the graphs and analysis can be very misleading. Even some Chinese scholar-sourced data could be badly gathered at a time.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Speeder 2 said:


> Happy Chinese New Year to you ALL!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn’t disprove what I argued though. The Han built the Great Wall which protedted them from the OTHER northerners. So from the reverse angle, because the Han didn’t want their lands, Mongols and Manchus survived. If Northern Han determined to expand as North as possible at any expanses, the Mongols and Manchus would have been rooted out long ago.
> 
> The Northern Han was and still is the major sub-race in the northern region, alongside with Mongols and Manchus, who have been marginalised/assimilated by the former in the history. As for the Turks, they were chased away by the Northern Han to Central Asia.
> 
> Your quote is only a theory based on one research suggesting that Chinese is from SE Asia. It’s not conclusive yet. This mainstream theory (by PC big name geneticists, and adopted by some Korean & Japanese ultra nationalists from Youtube) has a BIG loophole and it can be very well to be another way around that Han Chinese were from the North from the very start - both of which I’ll address later.
> 
> No, evidences on the table could suggest either way. BUT, the loophole of the mainstream “South-to-North theory” is that it completely ignores and contradicts the average IQ of the people involved. It remains mainstream because no mainstream scientist dares to mention non-PC truth of IQ, so they don’t need to explain it.
> 
> 1. it’s an almost commonly held belief that high IQ could only be involved in the high altitude regions soon after the last Ice Age. High IQ of East Asians (and of NE Europeans, for that matter) was mainly formed during that time. This also insinuates that when “Out of Africa” (if it is true), the route of the ancestors of current NE Asians and NE Europeans was towards the far North, rather than seemingly “easy” Southern route via South Asia and/or SE Asia, because the temperatures there couldn’t explain Cold-Selected IQ level.
> 
> 2. human IQ has evolved very “slowly” in time, e.g. A peer-reviewed research suggests that the last time that genes of North East Asians subject to natural selection was about 6,500 years ago coinciding with their large scale farming and city-building activities, which were generally deemed giving NE Asian average IQ a further boost.
> 
> 3. IQ works generally in a way that when tribe A (IQ=105) breeds with tribe B ( IQ=85), the offspring have avg IQ of 95 in time, the mid way; when tribe C (IQ=85) breeds with tribe B, the offspring still have avg IQ of 85, not 105, at least not within a span of thousands of years of drastically evolution under some extraordinary natural selection conditions.
> 
> 4. In light of 1, 2 and 3, if Han Chinese was originally came to the North from SE Asia ( or saying that SE Asians and/or Southern Chinese “gave birth” to the Northern Chinese) were true, then it couldn’t explain:
> 
> A) why SE Asians have lower avg IQ than Northern Chinese,
> 
> B) why “Southern”Chinese with almost identical IQ to the Northern Chinese today even if the former were not Cold-Selected at all, since they “originally came from the south”, and
> 
> C) how come that the offspring of SE Asians (indigenous, with avg IQ=85) and “Southern Chinese ( assume with IQ max.105 at a time, or closer to 85 according to the half-baked mainstream theory) became 105 (Northern Chinese) all of a sudden?
> 
> PC-driven mainstream geneticists and anthropologists can not and dare not explain above obvious contradictions.
> 
> Therefore, it suggests that only “North-to-South” migrations ( and invasions as we all know) could be the case. It is also the most logical one that fits into many well-documented history.
> 
> As for the facts ( assume they are facts) that in some pockets of far south of China or Southern Tibet there seems to have more O3 concentration, it could well be due to some small waves of early Han Chinese migrations to the regions and later became isolated. They can’t serve as a conclusive evidence to suggest "South-to-north". Many such cases in history. Actually, e.g., I even can venture to argue that probably some “Southern Chinese” from some historically isolated mountainous regions of Western Sichuan province or Southern Hunan province are in fact MORE “Northern”than so-called “northern Chinese”, simply because the “Southern Chinese” were originally likely from the north and they married within thus remain “Nothern Chinese”, while some of their “northern Chinese”counterparts whom have never lived in the South before are probably even non-Han with certain degrees of possible Manchu, Mongol or Turkish, etc admixtures for one reason or another.
> 
> 
> mainstram Anthropologists are wrong, as explained above.
> 
> 
> This proves my point that most indigenous ppl of south china have either been rooted out or been chased out of the region when they lost wars to the Han, the similar happened to those northern nomads.
> 
> 
> 
> I still can’t see any conclusive evidence why “unidirectional diffusion” and why must be “from Southeast Asia into East Asia”. Actually as I explained earlier, both logic and IQ indicate that the other way around is much more likely the case, although it didn’t root out the possibility that some Han Chinese mated with indigenous women AFTER they migrated to the Southern China and SE Asia.
> 
> Don't fall for those graphs, Veritas. Any graph is based on data. If those original data source is wrong, the graphs and analysis can be very misleading. Even some Chinese scholar-sourced data could be badly gathered at a time.



The ancestral O evolved in Southeast Asia, but O3a was evolved in the Tibetan plateau.

So the Pro-Sino-Tibetan is closest to the modern Derung group and Qiang group.

BTW, happy new year to you and the rest of PDF members.

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## ChineseTiger1986

The modern North Chinese look like these people who are almost 100% O3a, it is so funny that some stupid “皇汉” from South China keep calling the pure blood Sinic people such as North Chinese as Mongols and Manchus.


----------



## Viet

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The modern North Chinese look like these people who are almost 100% O3a, it is so funny that some stupid “皇汉” from South China keep calling the pure blood Sinic people such as North Chinese as Mongols and Manchus.


thank god that the Viets look differently, and not like as North Chinese. Below are 100% pure Hanoier girls and other. Zero O3a. lol


----------



## StarCraft_ZT

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The modern North Chinese look like these people who are almost 100% O3a, it is so funny that some stupid “皇汉” from South China keep calling the pure blood Sinic people such as North Chinese as Mongols and Manchus.




Which north part do they come from? They look like Mongol. They are shepherd. They can't represent all North Chinese. And still Han account for the majority of North Chinese population.

The traditional boundary between North Chinese and South Chinese is Qinling-Huai River.


----------



## Grand Historian

EastSea said:


> nothing to avoid here, it is the debate in English, not in Chinese.
> 
> King Goujian of Yue State defeated Fuchai's King of Wu state and united Wu Yue the first kingdom of Bai Yue people in their history. He should been called as Emperor of WuYue. This story is similar to GiaLong Emperor who united Vietnam, in English he is called as Gia Long Emperor of Nguyen Dynasty of Vietnam.
> 
> and more, WuYue had something to do with Vietnam in ancient time when King Goujian ordered envoy to Hung King to establish the ally to counter King Fuchai of Wu. Its reported by Đại Việt sử lược (大越史略),


Hegemon is different from Emperor,Goujian did not have the ambition to conquer all of the other warring states and uproot the Zhou king.

No,WuYue has nothing to do with Vietnam Dai Viet su luoc was written in 1377,Goujian reigned in 496-465 B.C. 

The text is written almost 2000 years later while no previous Chinese texts mention this.

Why don't you provide the quote in Hanzi?



EastSea said:


> In ancient time period of Hong Bang Thi and Xich Quy, before 3,000 year BCE, Tonkin Delta is under sea level.
> 
> Kinh Duong Vuong and Xich Quy was in mainland of South China, including Lingnan and south of Dongding lake.
> 
> Lịch sử Việt Nam – Wikipedia tiếng Việt


No they never existed using a flimsy wiki link doesn't prove anything.

You don't have Chinese textual evidence and archaeological proof.

In fact the only "proof" you have is written thousands of years later and are riddled with factual errors?

Making wild claims is equivalent to trolling.

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## Viet

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> You should be happy if China has the mood to maintain the status quo, asking to return the islands is simply too much.


you should be happy too that Vietnam always wants to maintain a good relationship with China. We can be soft or act as hard and hostile as Japan and the Philippines. it is your choice.

Don´t make the mistake and assume that you can intimidate us with your show of hubris, arrogance and aggression. we have some tough options on the table to deal with a hostile China.


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## Grand Historian

Lux de Veritas said:


> Both Fuchai and Goujian may not be "Chinese". Not only that the ancient Yangtzu river Chu kingdom 楚国 may not be "Chinese". The Chinese historical text say 楚子荆蛮， （Chu are barbarian）, 南蛮鸟舌之人 (talk like a bird, meaning the language is quite different). That was BC300.
> 
> Even Sichuan is very non Chinese at relatively late stage，AD300. There is 7 campaign by Zhuge Liang 诸葛亮 against the "barbarian"。
> 
> Yunnan is very non Chinese until today.


I agree with you there is no singular Chinese identity back then however the states of GouWu,YuYue,Ba,Shu and Chu orbited the Chinese world order.

They did this by Sinicizng themselves,fabricating or stating genealogies to Zhou kings or Chinese sage kings(which was accepted by the the other states).

Qin was vilified as barbarian by other states does that automatically make it non Chinese?

Would you argue that Qu Yuan,Xiang Yu or Liu Bang(though later texts state his ancestors are from Wey) are non Chinese because they came from the former lands of Chu?

So in the end these states Sinicized themselves and viewed themselves as "Chinese".


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## ChineseTiger1986

StarCraft_ZT said:


> Which north part do they come from? They look like Mongol. They are shepherd. They can't represent all North Chinese. And still Han account for the majority of North Chinese population.
> 
> The traditional boundary between North Chinese and South Chinese is Qinling-Huai River.



From Northwest Sichuan and Qinghai, they don't look like Mongols, but look like the pro-Sinic.

South Han is also predominantly Sinic, but North Han is even purer, even i am a South Han, but i am not going to against the scientific evidence.

Here is the true Mongolian people.









Viet said:


> thank god that the Viets look differently, and not like as North Chinese. Below are 100% pure Hanoier girls and other. Zero O3a. lol



Well, Huaxia input did provide you some randomly good looking Northeast Asian beauties, don't ever try to deny that.

Check the second girl from the right, she looks like the remaining of the Huaxia gene in Vietnam.


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## Viet

Grand Historian said:


> Zhao Tuo wanted to be an emperor the truth is *Nanyue contained more then just Vietnamese people?*
> What evidence do you have that Nanyue is Vietnamese?


can we both agree to that Nanyue consisted of parts of Vietnam and China today, so it was a Chinese-Vietnamese Kingdom?
but if the yue people were seen as barbarians and non-Han, how can the Kingdom be Chinese?
Zhao wanted to be an emperor equally to the Han, that provoked the Han invasion.

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## Grand Historian

Viet said:


> can we both agree to that Nanyue consisted of parts of Vietnam and China today, so it was a Chinese-Vietnamese Kingdom?
> but if the yue people were seen as barbarians and non-Han, how can the Kingdom be Chinese?
> Zhao wanted to be an emperor equally to the Han, that provoked the Han invasion.


Chinese is not solely Han,there are plenty of important minorities throughout history.

Yes the Yue were non-Chinese at the time however that doesn't make them Vietnamese.

You also forget the amount of Qin convicts and soldiers that were under Zhao Tuo's commands.

The kingdoms culture was also a hybrid of Chinese/Yue.

I will restate why the kingdom can be considered Chinese.

1.The founder Zhao Tuo was from Zhending,Zhao.

2. Zhao Tuo used a Chinese title ie Huangdi privately.

3. According to Shiji there were Qin convicts/soldiers that lived in Nanyue.

4. The capital was in Panyu not Vietnam.

5. Chinese elements remain,Chinese style administration,Chinese weapons,Hanzi,gold seals and jade burial suits were used.

6. OuLuo/AuLac was a Vietnamese kingdom founded by Shu Pan,Nanyue invaded the area and annexed it.

7. Southern Han was orignally named Da Yue,showing how Nanyue's legacy still existed in Southern China not just Vietnam.

Now would you be so kind to give reasons why it can be considered Vietnamese?

My view is that it is a Sinicized Baiyue kingdom with the founder being Chinese.

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## StarCraft_ZT

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> From Northwest Sichuan and Qinghai, they don't look like Mongols, but look like the pro-Sinic.
> 
> South Han is also predominantly Sinic, but North Han is even purer, even i am a South Han, but i am not going to against the scientific evidence.
> 
> Here is the true Mongolian people.



Wow... These Mongolian warrior look so strong.

Well, I'm not an expert, but I think it's a little bit earlier to conclude that North Han or South Han whichever is purer. Through our history, there were many migrations from North to South. Song Dynasty is the peak of migration, millions of North Han came to South...And this kind of population flow started from Jin dynasty, this process last for many centuries. They come to south just to run free from the invasion of northern nomadic people.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Viet said:


> can we both agree to that Nanyue consisted of parts of Vietnam and China today, so it was a Chinese-Vietnamese Kingdom?
> but if the yue people were seen as barbarians and non-Han, how can the Kingdom be Chinese?
> Zhao wanted to be an emperor equally to the Han, that provoked the Han invasion.



Most Cantonese are proud of the legacy of their Huaxia biological forefather.

I mean these men were awesome and the ultimate badasses, they killed off most Baiyue males and banged those hot Baiyue chicks.


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## Viet

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Check the second girl from the right, she looks like the remaining of the Huaxia gene in Vietnam.


you are right. she looks like a girl from Shanghai.

this school girl is from central Vietnam.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Viet said:


> you are right. she looks like a girl from Shanghai.
> 
> this school girl is from central Vietnam.



Well, i've seen a Viet girl who looks almost identical to a Shanghainese model/actress in person.

She is 174cm and very beautiful, it is hard to believe that she is actually from Vietnam.

But i've told this anecdote to some Viet hardcore Ultra-Nationalists, but they told me that this phenotype belongs to Wuyue, not Han.

They insist that Vietnam is a breed of different Baiyue groups, and this girl is the Wuyue type, while the true Han Chinese look like this.


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## Viet

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Well, i've seen a Viet girl who looks almost identical to a Shanghainese model/actress in person.
> 
> She is 174cm and very beautiful, it is hard to believe that she is actually from Vietnam.
> 
> But i've told this anecdote to some Viet hardcore Ultra-Nationalists, but they told me that this phenotype belongs to Wuyue, not Han.
> 
> They insist that Vietnam is a breed of different Baiyue groups, and this girl is the Wuyue type, while the true Han Chinese look like this.


Viet girls look differently from North to South. Here are from Saigon. they have more SE Asia look.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Viet said:


> Viet girls look differently from North to South. Here are from Saigon. they have more SE Asia look.



Well, some South Vietnamese can look quite Northeast Asian as well, maybe they were the immigrant from North Vietnam?

BTW, here is the argument of the Viet hardcore Ultra-Nationalists:

- Vietnam is mainly consisted of Ou Yue/Luo Yue + Nan Yue, but also has some amount of Wu Yue and Min Yue.

- Vietnam has zero Hua Xia blood.

- The tall/slim Shanghainese-like phenotype in Vietnam is Wu Yue, it has nothing to do with Hua Xia.

*I did refute their argument, and i said that the true Wu Yue phenotype is shorty, while the tall/slim phenotype they got in Vietnam is Hua Xia, not Wu Yue.

Here is the true Wu Yue phenotype in Shanghai.*


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## EastSea

Grand Historian said:


> Hegemon is different from Emperor,Goujian did not have the ambition to conquer all of the other warring states and uproot the Zhou king.
> 
> No,WuYue has nothing to do with Vietnam Dai Viet su luoc was written in 1377,Goujian reigned in 496-465 B.C.
> 
> The text is written almost 2000 years later while no previous Chinese texts mention this.
> 
> Why don't you provide the quote in Hanzi?
> 
> 
> No they never existed using a flimsy wiki link doesn't prove anything.
> 
> You don't have Chinese textual evidence and archaeological proof.
> 
> In fact the only "proof" you have is written thousands of years later and are riddled with factual errors?
> 
> Making wild claims is equivalent to trolling.



You can check here.

Đại Việt sử lược - Đọc trực tuyến - SachbaoVN

I don't find the Chinese version text on line. I quoted the clause is translated in to Vietnamese, as following:

*"Khi ấy Việt Câu Tiễn sai sứ đến dụ, Hùng Vương cự tuyệt"*. I translated in to English:

" *In this time Yue King Goujian sended envoy to persuade, Hùng Vương has been refused* ".

In any case, there is textual evidence to proof that our King Hung Vuong had relation with Wu Yue Kingdom.


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## ChineseTiger1986

EastSea said:


> You can check here.
> 
> Đại Việt sử lược - Đọc trực tuyến - SachbaoVN
> 
> I don't find the Chinese version text on line. I quoted the clause is translated in to Vietnamese, as following:
> 
> *"Khi ấy Việt Câu Tiễn sai sứ đến dụ, Hùng Vương cự tuyệt"*. I translated in to English:
> 
> " *In this time Yue King Goujian sended envoy to persuade, Hùng Vương has been refused* ".
> 
> In any case, there is textual evidence to proof that our King Hung Vuong had relation with Wu Yue Kingdom.



Tell me why he didn't want to help Goujian?


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## EastSea

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Well, some South Vietnamese can look quite Northeast Asian as well, maybe they were the immigrant from North Vietnam?
> 
> BTW, here is the argument of the Viet hardcore Ultra-Nationalists:
> 
> - Vietnam is mainly consisted of Ou Yue/Luo Yue + Nan Yue, but also has some amount of Wu Yue and Min Yue.
> 
> - Vietnam has zero Hua Xia blood.
> 
> - The tall/slim Shanghainese-like phenotype in Vietnam is Wu Yue, it has nothing to do with Hua Xia.
> 
> *I did refute their argument, and i said that the true Wu Yue phenotype is shorty, while the tall/slim phenotype they got in Vietnam is Hua Xia, not Wu Yue.
> 
> Here is the true Wu Yue phenotype in Shanghai.*



The Wu Yue gold medal winner should pass Vietnamese phenotype.

Vietnamese gold medal SEAGame winner. She is from Mekong Delta, typical South Vietnamese came from North. Does she look like Wu Yue phenotype ?







ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Tell me why he didn't want to help Goujian?



From ancient time our ancestor known that as well that don't interfere in to China's internal affairs.

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## ChineseTiger1986

EastSea said:


> The Wu Yue gold medal winner should pass Vietnamese phenotype.
> 
> Vietnamese gold medal SEAGame winner. She is from Mekong Delta.



And don't forget this guy, since i've seen a Viet guy who looks exactly like him.








EastSea said:


> From ancient time our ancestor known that as well that don't interfere in to China's internal affairs.



That was a quite smart strategy.

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## EastSea

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> And don't forget this guy, since i've seen a Viet guy who looks exactly like him.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That was a quite smart strategy.




Our Gold medal winner and her family






She is member of Sport Club of VPA, she is promoted to higher rang of officer, after won three gold medal by swimming.

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## ChineseTiger1986

EastSea said:


> Our Gold medal winner and her family



So do you acknowledge that the Huaxia phenotype is overall better looking?

Here is 4 Viet girls, the second one from the right is the pure progressive Huaxia phenotype, while the other 3 girls belong to the mixed phenotype between Huaxia and Baiyue.






Then you can understand why Wuyue/Minyue/Nanyue love the beautiful Huaxia so much and always want to be part of it.


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## EastSea

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> So do you acknowledge that the Huaxia phenotype is overall better looking?
> 
> Here is 4 Viet girls, the second one from the right is the pure progressive Huaxia phenotype, while the other 3 girls belong to the mixed phenotype between Huaxia and Baiyue.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then you can understand why Wuyue/Minyue/Nanyue love the beautiful Huaxia so much and always want to be part of it.



I don't think so, the beauty phenotype is today in China belong to Senetic/Yue, not HuaXia.






Its HuaXia.


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## ChineseTiger1986

EastSea said:


> I don't think so, the beauty phenotype is today in China belong to Senetic/Yue, not HuaXia.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Its HuaXia.



The progressive phenotype of Huaxia is the best looking in East Asia.

If the Huaxia culture is not beautiful, then Wuyue/Minyue/Nanyue wouldn't want to join it.

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## StarCraft_ZT

EastSea said:


> I don't think so, the beauty phenotype is today in China belong to Senetic/Yue, not HuaXia.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Its HuaXia.



Fan Bingbing was a newbie actress at that time.

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## yue10

LOL @ the Annam dude don't even live in VN but speak as if he is foreign minster of said country

LOL @ Chinese came from SEA, if you say a bunch of uncivilised hunter gatherer peoples migrated to the North then OK and that's if you believe OOA and their genetic speaks

LOL @ O2b showing up in Viet population thereby implying a genetic root relation with the 'Altaics', do you got time depth to know when such marker showed up or you just assume they shared it from the beginning, that's not take into account O2b origin lies in Manchuria so now the Annam pigs was origin in NEA

LOL @ these shameless Annam pigs





also I think your people should give me reps for found this map, you don't got enough brains to know where to look but never rep me, smh


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## EastSea

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The progressive phenotype of Huaxia is the best looking in East Asia.
> 
> If the Huaxia culture is not beautiful, then Wuyue/Minyue/Nanyue wouldn't want to join it.



Hua Xia civilization is developed first, but beauty in ancient time in China is belong to Qi Guo women, Dongji barbarian,

was Xi Shi from Wu Yue ?


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## ChineseTiger1986

EastSea said:


> Hua Xia civilization is developed first, but beauty in ancient time in China is belong to Qi Guo women, Dongji barbarian,
> 
> was Xi Shi from Wu Yue ?



Xi Shi is extremely beautiful, so she is probably a Huaxia woman lived in Wu Yue land.

Here is someone from Shanghai posted her grandma's picture. The lady was born in 1923, and this is the true Huaxia phenotype in Shanghai, very different from the Wuyue phenotype that i showed you before.

The Wuyue gene cannot produce this kind of beauty, only Huaxia can.

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## EastSea

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Xi Shi is extremely beautiful, so she is probably a Huaxia woman lived in Wu Yue land.
> 
> Here is someone from Shanghai posted her grandma's picture. The lady was born in 1923, and this is the true Huaxia phenotype in Shanghai, very different from the Wuyue phenotype that i showed you before.
> 
> The Wuyue gene cannot produce this kind of beauty, only Huaxia can.



is it should be mistaken here, her eye is big ? HuaXia phenotype is small eye, like this.


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## ChineseTiger1986

EastSea said:


> is it should be mistaken here, her eye is big ? HuaXia phenotype is small eye, like this.



If her phenotype is not Huaxia, then what it is?

Of course, it is the pure Huaxia phenotype. Here is the Chinese drama about the King of Yue Goujian, and it is also dubbed in Vietnamese.

The Xishi in this drama also has this kind of phenotype, so probably the real Xishi also looked like that, it is the genuine Huaxia phenotype, while the Baiyue phenotype is fugly, even the Baiyue people themselves hate it.

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## Lux de Veritas

Speeder 2 said:


> Happy Chinese New Year to you ALL!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn’t disprove what I argued though. The Han built the Great Wall which protected them from the other northern nomads. So from the reverse angle, because the Han didn’t want their lands, Mongols and Manchus survived. If Northern Han determined to expand as North as possible at ANY expanses, the Mongols and Manchus would probably have been rooted out long ago.
> 
> The Northern Han was and still is the major sub-race in the northern region, alongside with Mongols and Manchus, who mostly have been marginalised/assimilated by the former in the history. As for the Turks, they were chased away by the Northern Han to Central Asia.
> 
> Your quote is only a theory based on one research suggesting that Chinese is from SE Asia. It’s not conclusive yet. This mainstream theory (by PC big name geneticists, and adopted by some Korean & Japanese ultra nationalists from Youtube) has a BIG loophole and it can be very well to be another way around that Han Chinese were from the North from the very start - both of which I’ll address later.
> 
> No, evidences on the table could suggest either way. BUT, the loophole of the mainstream “South-to-North theory” is that it completely ignores and contradicts the average IQ of the people involved. It remains mainstream because no mainstream scientist dares to mention non-PC truth of IQ, so they don’t need to explain it.
> 
> 1. it’s an almost commonly held belief that high IQ could only be evolved in the high altitude regions soon after the last Ice Age. High IQ of East Asians (and of NE Europeans, for that matter) was mainly formed during that time. This also insinuates that when “Out of Africa” (if it is true), the route of the ancestors of current NE Asians and NE Europeans was towards the far North, rather than seemingly “easy” Southern route via South Asia and/or SE Asia, because the temperatures there couldn’t explain Cold-Selected IQ level.
> 
> 2. human IQ has evolved very “slowly” in time, e.g. A peer-reviewed research suggests that the last time that genes of North East Asians subject to natural selection was about 6,500 years ago coinciding with their large scale farming and city-building activities, which were generally deemed giving NE Asian average IQ a further boost.
> 
> 3. IQ works generally in a way that when tribe A (IQ=105) breeds with tribe B ( IQ=85), the offspring have avg IQ of 95 in time, the mid way; when tribe C (IQ=85) breeds with tribe B, the offspring still have avg IQ of 85, not 105, at least not within a span of thousands of years of drastically evolution under some extraordinary natural selection conditions.
> 
> 4. In light of 1, 2 and 3, if Han Chinese was originally came to the North from SE Asia ( or saying that SE Asians and/or Southern Chinese “gave birth” to the Northern Chinese) were true, then it couldn’t explain:
> 
> A) why SE Asians have lower avg IQ than Northern Chinese,
> 
> B) why “Southern”Chinese with almost identical IQ to the Northern Chinese today even if the former were not Cold-Selected at all, since they “originally came from the south”, and
> 
> C) how come that the offspring of SE Asians (indigenous, with avg IQ=85) and “Southern Chinese ( assume with IQ max.105 at a time, or closer to 85 according to the half-baked mainstream theory) became 105 (Northern Chinese) all of a sudden?
> 
> PC-driven mainstream geneticists and anthropologists can not and dare not explain above obvious contradictions.
> 
> Therefore, it suggests that only “North-to-South” migrations ( and invasions as we all know) could be the case. It is also the most logical one that fits into many well-documented history.
> 
> As for the facts ( assume they are facts) that in some pockets of far south of China or Southern Tibet there seems to have more O3 concentration, it could well be due to some small waves of early Han Chinese migrations to the regions and later became isolated. They can’t serve as a conclusive evidence to suggest "South-to-north".
> 
> Many such cases in history. e.g., actually I even can venture to argue that probably some “Southern Chinese” from some historically isolated mountainous regions of Western Sichuan province or Southern Hunan province are in fact MORE “Northern” than so-called “northern Chinese”, simply because the “Southern Chinese” were originally likely from the north anyway and they married within thus remain “Nothern Chinese” by bloodline, while some of their “northern Chinese”counterparts whom have never lived in the South before are probably even non-Han with certain degrees of possible Manchu, Mongol or Turkish, etc admixtures for one reason or another.
> 
> mainstram Anthropologists are wrong, as explained above.
> 
> This proves my point that most indigenous ppl of south china had either been rooted out or been chased off the region when they lost wars to the Han in ancient times, the similar happened to most northern China nomads.
> 
> 
> I still can’t see any conclusive evidence why “unidirectional diffusion” and why must be “from Southeast Asia into East Asia”. Actually as I explained earlier, both logic and IQ seem to indicate that the other way around is much more likely the case, although it didn’t root out the possibility that some Han Chinese mated with indigenous women AFTER they migrated to the Southern China and SE Asia.
> 
> Don't fall for those graphs, Veritas. Any graph is based on data. If those original data source is wrong, the graphs and analysis can be very misleading. Even some Chinese scholar-sourced data could be badly gathered at a time.



I have all along suggest "y chromosome" genetist migration theory and anthropological theory could have need further reconciliation. I think I have made myself clear enough.

If you cite O3 Y chromosome, do it all the way, and conclusion is Chinese come from SE Asian, as most leading Y chromosome expert propose. So the similarity of Northern and Southern Chinese Y chromosome could be due to people from South moving North.

Y-Chromosome Evidence for a Northward Migration of Modern Humans into Eastern Asia during the Last Ice Age

Investigative Genetics | Full text | Inferring human history in East Asia from Y chromosomes

PLOS ONE: Human Migration through Bottlenecks from Southeast Asia into East Asia during Last Glacial Maximum Revealed by Y Chromosomes


IQ shows nothing about ancestry. Today, the high IQ centers of China are Shanghai, Guangdong, Taiwan and HK are all former barbarian land. The Yellow river plains and Xi-an, cradle of Han civilization are now low IQ, poor people receiving state aid.



Grand Historian said:


> I agree with you there is no singular Chinese identity back then however the states of GouWu,YuYue,Ba,Shu and Chu orbited the Chinese world order.
> 
> They did this by Sinicizng themselves,fabricating or stating genealogies to Zhou kings or Chinese sage kings(which was accepted by the the other states).
> 
> Qin was vilified as barbarian by other states does that automatically make it non Chinese?
> 
> Would you argue that Qu Yuan,Xiang Yu or Liu Bang(though later texts state his ancestors are from Wey) are non Chinese because they came from the former lands of Chu?
> 
> So in the end these states Sinicized themselves and viewed themselves as "Chinese".



This is a reasonable voice that we may move on from here.

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## StarCraft_ZT

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Xi Shi is extremely beautiful, so she is probably a Huaxia woman lived in Wu Yue land.
> 
> Here is someone from Shanghai posted her grandma's picture. The lady was born in 1923, and this is the true Huaxia phenotype in Shanghai, very different from the Wuyue phenotype that i showed you before.
> 
> The Wuyue gene cannot produce this kind of beauty, only Huaxia can.



It reminds me of this guy, the academician of the Chinese Academy of Engineering. He was really handsome. He is from Tangshan, Hebei， born in 1937








Lux de Veritas said:


> IQ shows nothing about ancestry. Today, the high IQ centers of China are Shanghai, Guangdong, Taiwan and HK are all former barbarian land. The Yellow river plains and Xi-an, cradle of Han civilization are now low IQ, poor people receiving state aid.



I come from Henan Province, North China, you mean I am low IQ?

Henan didn't receive as much as aid as other provinces please, we never got any good policies except Agricultural industry.

@Hu Songshan

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## Lux de Veritas

StarCraft_ZT said:


> It reminds me of this guy, the academician of the Chinese Academy of Engineering. He was really handsome.
> 
> View attachment 15023
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I come from Henan Province, North China, you mean I am low IQ?



Sorry, I have no concrete data for that. Not too sure if you guys are higher IQ than HK or Taiwan. Maybe you think you guys that are pretty smarter.


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## ChineseTiger1986

StarCraft_ZT said:


> It reminds me of this guy, the academician of the Chinese Academy of Engineering. He was really handsome. He is from Tangshan, Hebei， born in 1937
> 
> View attachment 15023
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I come from Henan Province, North China, you mean I am low IQ?



This is a really handsome looking Huaxia man, now our Viet friend has no valid excuse anymore to say that Huaxia people only have small eyes, since this guy is from North China, there is no chance that he has any Baiyue blood.

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## Okemos

Lux de Veritas said:


> The differences between Northern and Southern Chinese can be very big and can be shown if we select example carefully. However we can always choose sentence formations to show there are similar. Nevertheless, Mandarin, Cantonese and Min Nan/Taiwanese are 3 sinitic lect within the Sinitic language family and are 100% mutually unintelligible.
> 
> For that reason, if Taiwan goes independent, she will "enshrine" Taiwanese and tell everyone that "Taiwanese" is a separate race from Chinese.
> 
> She is very beautiful
> 
> *Mandarin*
> 她很美。
> ta hen mei
> 
> *Min Nan/Taiwanese*
> 伊真媠。
> yi jin sui
> 
> *Cantonese*
> 佢好靓
> kuoi ho leng
> 
> *Japanese *
> 彼女は非常に美しいです
> kano-jo wa hijo ni utsuku-shi-yi desu.



伊is standard word still used in Wu Chinese, like Shanghai, Suzhou, dialect, etc.

I really hate how Chinese dialects and cultures are represented by Cantonese and Minanese because they were the immigrants historically while at the same time, Cantonese and Fujian people are still a very small minority, population wise. For example, the overuse of bright colors in oversees Chinese restaurants is a bit too cheerful to me. I am rather curious why we people in Zhejiang living just a bit north to Fujian province did not immigrate as much as Fujian people..

The reason they refer themselves more as Tang people is probably because during Han dynasty, the Lin Nan area was still in the process of sinicization. The Han court sent soldiers to be stationed in those areas where they married local women, etc, etc.

Please refrain from discussing about IQ. This just breeds trolling since nobody wants to be called stupid even if it's truth. We humans, being civilized, sometimes have to be hypocritical in order to live together peacefully.

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## ChineseTiger1986

StarCraft_ZT said:


> I come from Henan Province, North China, you mean I am low IQ?
> 
> Henan didn't receive as much as aid as other provinces please, we never got any good policies except Agricultural industry.



Don't listen to him, Shanghai is more developed because the geographical advantage.

But it still made by the creation of the Huaxia people, if it was managed by the local Baiyue tribes, i bet it would definitely remain as the monkey land.

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## Lux de Veritas

Okemos said:


> 伊is standard word still used in Wu Chinese, like Shanghai, Suzhou, dialect, etc.
> 
> I really hate how Chinese dialects and cultures are represented by Cantonese and Minanese because they were the immigrants historically while at the same time, Cantonese and Fujian people are still a very small minority, population wise. I For example, the overuse of bright colors in oversees Chinese restaurants is a bit too cheerful to me. I am rather curious that why we people in Zhejiang living just a bit north to Fujian province did not immigrate as much as Fujian people..
> 
> The reason they refer themselves more as Tang people is probably because during Han dynasty, the Lin Nan area was still in the process of sinicization. The Han court sent soldiers to be stationed in those areas where they married local women, etc, etc.



The Min Nan are closest to old Chinese for your info. The lect we speak are very close to Chinese classics which is considered elegant by some Chinese language expert. 

From hudong baike

闽南方言保留下来的古汉语较多，因此被学术界称为“语言的活化石”。闽南方言历来为国内外语言学家所重视。 这对汉语古音的构拟，古籍的训释，汉语史的研究都具有重要的意义。



StarCraft_ZT said:


> It reminds me of this guy, the academician of the Chinese Academy of Engineering. He was really handsome. He is from Tangshan, Hebei， born in 1937
> 
> View attachment 15023
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I come from Henan Province, North China, you mean I am low IQ?
> 
> Henan didn't receive as much as aid as other provinces please, we never got any good policies except Agricultural industry.



Actually the coaster cities got high IQ because of urbanization and smart people all over flooded there. Also they are the windows of China. I am pretty aware of that.

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## Speeder 2

Lux de Veritas said:


> I have all along suggest "y chromosome" genetist migration theory and anthropological theory could have need further reconciliation. I think I have made myself clear enough.
> 
> If you cite O3 Y chromosome, do it all the way, and conclusion is Chinese come from SE Asian, as most leading Y chromosome expert propose. So the similarity of Northern and Southern Chinese Y chromosome could be due to people from South moving North.
> 
> Y-Chromosome Evidence for a Northward Migration of Modern Humans into Eastern Asia during the Last Ice Age
> 
> Investigative Genetics | Full text | Inferring human history in East Asia from Y chromosomes
> 
> PLOS ONE: Human Migration through Bottlenecks from Southeast Asia into East Asia during Last Glacial Maximum Revealed by Y Chromosomes .



Thanks for citing those papers. The first 1999 paper is the key, the famous root of “South-to-North migration” theory.

However, all of these papers admit that: it’s still “controversial”, “been debating for debates”, this is only “1 out of total 3 models”... This shows that it is a proposed model, but not conclusive and generally accepted fact yet.

Any model, this one included, could be wrong because it is inevitably based on 1. some assumptions , and 2. Data, both of which could be wrong or inaccurate.

One of the leading assumption of this “South-to-north” model is “Out of Africa”which in itself is again another very controversial model (against “multi-origin-model”) . Moreover, many problems could arise in its data, which is based on 1) EXISTING anthropology discoveries and 2) different ways/models of how to interpretate and calculate Y-Chromosome age, for instance, as they admit in those papers.

So there you have it, even I respect your opinion and position on this model, the model is NOT conclusive yet as you can see.

Moreover, as I explained earlier that this model has a huge loophole that it can not and dare not explain, due to the their PC stance that IQ doesn’t exist and everyone is the same – just another hidden political assumption in their essays.

So, if you believes there is a thing called IQ, then IQ theory blows this model off the balance, namely:

* How can a non-cold-selected group from the South low altitude regions have about 105 avg IQ? It’s non-existent in the world’s history, let alone East Asia. *

IQ theory dictates that if a group has avg IQ of >100, then its origin must be from the Northern high altitude regions (if “out of Africa”, then their ancestors must first migrated there thru the Northern route. If “multi-origin”, then their ancestors were there in the first place).

Above is the whole logic.

In practice, I am struggling to find ANY major south-origin ethnic group successfully conquered a major North-origin ethnic group for territory-control in history. Won battles? Perhaps occasionally yes. If the Northern group is uninterested in flighting? Maybe. But when the two go eye-to-eye with all their powers, the north one wins in the end, always. 

History shows that high altitude-based higher IQ groups have overwhelming chances of winning if going full strength against low altitude-based lower IQ groups:

-- Europe: Southern Greeks/Romans were ultimately conquered by the Northern Germanic groups.

-- Indian subcontinent: it was conquered always by northern invaders being Aryans, Turks, Persians, Mongols or the Brits. Always! Never heard of Southern Dravidians successfully conquered their Northern neighbour say China or Arabia or even Afghanistan. 

-- China: If China the only one? China lost twice in history, both to further-Northern groups: Mongols and Manchus, never to , say, Baiyue from the South or Pinoys or Indonesians from the SE Asia. The cradle of Chinese civilisation is in the Northern China after all called Yellow River, not Pearl Delta River in Guangdong, which would have been the case logically if “South-to-North” were true, wouldn’t it? Higher IQ Southern Cantonese (and/or higher IQ SE Asians) would have easily overrun lower IQ Northern Barbarians from the Yellow River and brought Chinese, or Pinoy, Civilisation to them instead.  Baiyue in history could then have been the name for indigenous people of the Northern China instead of the Southern…etc etc  





Lux de Veritas said:


> IQ shows nothing about ancestry. Today, the high IQ centers of China are Shanghai, Guangdong, Taiwan and HK are all former barbarian land. The Yellow river plains and Xi-an, cradle of Han civilization are now low IQ, poor people receiving state aid.
> .



Gee, surely you are stubborn. 

Many reasons for that, but why those ancient capitals of Han Chinese civilisation were based in the Northern China, not Taiwan, or Shanghai, or HK, or any place in the South after all, if the South were the original starting base for the Han Chinese?

BTW, I visited your blog several times. Good stuff!

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## Okemos

Lux de Veritas said:


> The Min Nan are closest to old Chinese for your info. The lect we speak are very close to Chinese classics which is considered elegant by some Chinese language expert.
> 
> From hudong baike
> 
> 闽南方言保留下来的古汉语较多，因此被学术界称为“语言的活化石”。闽南方言历来为国内外语言学家所重视。 这对汉语古音的构拟，古籍的训释，汉语史的研究都具有重要的意义。



I am perfectly aware of the importance of Minnan dialect and its preservation of old Chinese. However, some poems may rhyme better in Minnan dialect, while others may not. This only shows that language is very complicated and Minnan might have preserved certain aspect of old Chinese, but I am doubtful that Minnan can be claimed as closest to old Chinese. Plus, what you mean by old Chinese? in linguistics, old Chinese are further classified as either 上古汉语，中古汉语 ，近古汉语。


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## jkroo

Oh, come on. Our people should not push that our anscestor inject any genes into VN people. VN people has the honor to claim that they have the specific proud gene.

We should not discuss the gene lead to high IQ or good looking. Lets talk not in a racist way.

There are so many VN bribes in China now, some of our descendants may have some the special VN genes though they are still Chinese.

I think that we are not biologist so talk it in a history way is more reasonable and thats not off topic too.

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## ChineseTiger1986

jkroo said:


> Oh, come on. Our people should not push that our anscestor inject any genes into VN people. VN people has the honor to claim that they have the specific proud gene.
> We should not discuss the gene lead to high IQ or good looking. Lets talk not in a racist way.
> There are so many VN bribes in China now, some of our descendants may have some the special VN genes though they are still Chinese.



The only good looking Viet is the one that got genetically modified by the superior Huaxia gene.

For example, the second girl in the right of the pic, while you can imagine how a purebred Viet would look like.


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## Lux de Veritas

Speeder 2 said:


> Thanks for citing those papers. The first 1999 paper is the key, the famous root of “South-to-North migration” theory.
> 
> However, all of these papers admit that: it’s still “controversial”, “been debating for debates”, this is only “1 out of total 3 models”... This shows that it is a proposed model, but not conclusive and generally accepted fact yet.
> 
> Any model, this one included, could be wrong because it is inevitably based on 1. some assumptions , and 2. Data, both of which could be wrong or inaccurate.
> 
> One of the leading assumption of this “South-to-north” model is “Out of Africa”which in itself is again another still controversial model against “multi-origin-model”. Moreover, many problems could be arise in its data, which is based on 1) EXISTING anthropology discoveries and 2) different way of how to interpreter and calculate Y-Chromosome age, for instance, as they admit in those papers.
> 
> So there you have it, even I respect your opinion and position on this model, the model is NOT conclusive yet as you can see.
> 
> Moreover, as I explained earlier that this model has a huge loophole that it can not and dare not explain, due to the their PC stance that IQ doesn’t exist and everyone is the same – just another hidden political assumption in their essays.
> 
> So, if you believes there is a thing called IQ, then IQ theory blows this model off the balance, namely:
> 
> * How can a non-cold-selected group from the South low altitude regions have about 105 avg IQ? It’s non-existent in the world’s history, let alone East Asia. *
> 
> IQ theory dictates that if a group has avg IQ of >100, then its origin must be from the Northern high altitude regions (if “out of Africa”, then their ancestors must first migrated there thru the Northern route. If “multi-origin”, then their ancestors were there in the first place).
> 
> Above is the whole logic.
> 
> In practice, I am struggling to find ANY major south-origin ethnic group successfully conquered a major North-origin ethnic group for territory-control. Won battles? Perhaps occasionally yes. If the Northern group is uninterested in flighting? Maybe. But when the two go eye-to-eye with all their powers, the north wins in the end, always.
> 
> History shows that high altitude-based high IQ groups have overwhelming chances of winning if going full strength against low altitude-based lower IQ groups:
> 
> -- Europe: Southern Greeks/Romans were ultimately conquered by the Northern Germanic groups.
> 
> -- Indian subcontinent: it was conquered always by northern invaders being Aryans, Turks, Persians, Mongols or the Brits. Always! Never heard of Southern Dravidians successfully conquered their Northern neighbour say China or Arabia or even Afghanistan.
> 
> -- China: If China the only one? China lost twice in history, both to further-Northern groups: Mongols and Manchus, never to , say, Baiyue from the South or Pinoys or Indonesians from the SE Asia. The cradle of Chinese civilisation is in the Northern China after all called Yellow River, not Pearl Delta River in Guangdong, which would have been the case logically if “South-to-North” were true, wouldn’t it? Higher IQ Southern Cantonese (and/or higher IQ SE Asians) would have easily overrun low IQ Northern Barbarians from the Yellow River and brought Chinese Civilisation to them instead.  Baiyue in history could then have been the name for indigenous people of the Northern China instead of the Southern…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gee, surely you are stubborn.
> 
> Many reasons for that, but why those ancient capitals of Han Chinese civilisation were based in the Northern China, not Taiwan, or Shanghai, or HK, or any place in the South after all, if the South were the original starting base for the Han Chinese?
> 
> BTW, I visited your blog several times. Good stuff!



I found genetist South to North theory puzzling as well, and more research are needed.

Actually Northern China was lost many times, like North South Dynasty, and Jin. If we take Beijing as example it was lost since Shi Jingtang ceded it to Liao, briefly back in Ming. I really wonder why so few C Y-chromosome.

The Sui-Tang elites are very xianbei. You got all kinds of surname like Yuwen 宇文, Dugu 独孤, Wei-Chi wei 尉迟, Zhangsun 长孙...etc. Chen Yinke 陈寅恪 works shows that Tang was very nomads in composition. We know during the North South Dynasty, there is large influx of nomads.

Your suggestion that high IQ always win could be sort of conditional in my opinion. While Han Chinese have higher IQ, there are a lot of inherent corrupted moral in a lot of our people. The lower IQ nomads are able to exploit this and overwhelm Han Chinese.

There are a lot of internal exhaustion within Han Chinese race.


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## jkroo

China has long history of migrant. You can test wether are you a really descendant of Yanhuang.

在炎黄子孙身上至少有另外三项区别于世界其他人种的外在特点或特征——
一、铲形门齿。上颌两颗门齿的两边缘翻卷成棱，中间低凹，活象一把铲子。我们的“炎黄子孙”们９８％以上的人是这种门齿，而白种人和黑人生就这种门齿的只占８.２％和１０.８％。即便其他亚洲黄种人有这种门齿的也仅占３０％左右。
二、眼内眦褶。眼的内角处，由上眼睑微微下伸，遮掩泪阜而呈一小小皮褶，即现在我们常说的“蒙古褶”。我国绝大部分人都有这种褶，而所有外国的其他人种极少会有这种褶。
三、屁股青斑。这是最不可思议、不好理解的特点特征。“炎黄子孙”的新生婴儿，在屁股的骶部（绝大多数是）或其他部位（一般在背部），必有淡灰色或青灰色的斑块，通常至一、两岁方能退去。这一特点特征，在其他黄种人新生婴儿中很少有，在白人和黑人的新生婴儿中几乎没有。

Google translate
Chinese people who have at least three other external features or characteristics distinct from other races of the world - A spade incisors. The two edges of the maxillary incisors rolled into two edges, middle low-lying, resembled a shovel. Our "Chinese people" who are more than 98% of the people of this incisors, while whites and blacks gifted with such incisors only 8.2% and 10.8%. Even other Asian people have this yellow incisors is also only about 30%. Second, the Mongoloid fold the eye. Inside corner of the eye, extending from the upper eyelid down slightly, cover and showed a small tear Fu skinfold, now we often say, "Mongolian fold." The vast majority of people in this country have

I think that is the so called gene.

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## StarCraft_ZT

Lux de Veritas said:


> Sorry, I have no concrete data for that. Not too sure if you guys are higher IQ than HK or Taiwan. Maybe you think you guys that are pretty smarter.



Yes, please count Singapore in, and you satisfied now.

What I really hate about you guys is that you are pussy and you flatter westerners but being cruel to your own race, that's why China was defeated twice in history. China was defeated by itself.

@Hu Songshan please do something

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## ChineseTiger1986

StarCraft_ZT said:


> Yes, please count Singapore in, and you satisfied now.
> 
> What I really hate about you guys is that you are pussy and you flatter westerners but being cruel to your own race, that's why China was defeated twice in history. China was defeated by itself.
> 
> @Hu Songshan please do something



He is a Malay, he self-claimed that he doesn't look like a Chinese in the eyes of Mainland Chinese.

So you can imagine that this Malay guy must have some kind of grudge against the Huaxia civilization as he keeps insulting the North China, the original homeland of Huaxia.

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## Lux de Veritas

Okemos said:


> I am perfectly aware of the importance of Minnan dialect and its preservation of old Chinese. However, some poems may rhyme better in Minnan dialect, while others may not. This only shows that language is very complicated and Minnan might have preserved certain aspect of old Chinese, but I am doubtful that Minnan can be claimed as closest to old Chinese. Plus, what you mean by old Chinese? in linguistics, old Chinese are further classified as either 上古汉语，中古汉语 ，近古汉语。



Min Nan/ Taiwanese is the direct descendant of old Chinese while Mandarin and Cantonese gone through the middle Chinese phase.

We preserve a lot of Chinese classics.

不知道 - 毋知也
你 - 汝
筷子 - 箸
锅 - 鼎
不需要 - 免
眼睛 - 目



StarCraft_ZT said:


> Yes, please count Singapore in, and you satisfied now.
> 
> What I really hate about you guys is that you are pussy and you flatter westerners but being cruel to your own race, that's why China was defeated twice in history. China was defeated by itself.
> 
> @Hu Songshan please do something



I receive a lot of challenges from PRCs that will never reason with logic and I am quite tired with such war. Many PRCs here resort to insult once their inferior logic got rebuttal.



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> He is a Malay, he self-claimed that he doesn't look like a Chinese in the eyes of Mainland Chinese.
> 
> So you can imagine that this Malay guy must have some kind of grudge against the Huaxia civilization as he keeps insulting the North China, the original homeland of Huaxia.


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## Grand Historian

Lux de Veritas said:


> I found genetist South to North theory puzzling as well, and more research are needed.
> 
> Actually Northern China was lost many times, like North South Dynasty, and Jin. If we take Beijing as example it was lost since Shi Jingtang ceded it to Liao, briefly back in Ming. I really wonder why so few C Y-chromosome.
> 
> The Sui-Tang elites are very xianbei. You got all kinds of surname like Yuwen 宇文, Dugu 独孤, Wei-Chi wei 尉迟, Zhangsun 长孙...etc. Chen Yinke 陈寅恪 works shows that Tang was very nomads in composition. We know during the North South Dynasty, there is large influx of nomads.


Name one time when nomads outnumbered the native Han Chinese in Northern China

You do realize even if the Sui-Tang emperors had Xianbei mothers they still claim descent from Han Chinese,even the Turkiphile Tang prince was ostracized because of his behavior.

You are a Malay with an ax to grind trying to distort the origins of Northern Han Chinese.

I can show you revised census studies that show despite drastic population drop of the Three Kingdoms minorities were still outnumbered.

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## StarCraft_ZT

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> He is a Malay, he self-claimed that he doesn't look like a Chinese in the eyes of Mainland Chinese.
> 
> So you can imagine that this Malay guy must have some kind of grudge against the Huaxia civilization as he keeps insulting the North China, the original homeland of Huaxia.



Very true. He is never Chinese, also including those Taiwanese. They are western lickers. The truth is China is getting richer, so they start to admit themselves as Chinese race, like this Singaporean. What if China is as poor as beggar？ I'm sure they will find any excuse to exclude themselves from any relations with China.

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## Lux de Veritas

Grand Historian said:


> Name one time when nomads outnumbered the native Han Chinese in Northern China
> 
> You do realize even if the Sui-Tang emperors had Xianbei mothers they still claim descent from Han Chinese,even the Turkiphile Tang prince was ostracized because of his behavior.
> 
> You are a Malay with an ax to grind trying to distort the origins of Northern Han Chinese.
> 
> I can show you revised census studies that show despite drastic population drop of the Three Kingdoms minorities were still outnumbered.



There is one guy here who claim the vanquished murdered the inhabitants. I am to contradict him.

Cool down. Discuss logically.


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## StarCraft_ZT

Lux de Veritas said:


> I receive a lot of challenges from PRCs that will never reason with logic and I am quite tired with such war. Many PRCs here resort to insult once their inferior logic got rebuttal.



Please? I beg your pardon, now I become the one insulting you? That's your superior logic?

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## ChineseTiger1986

StarCraft_ZT said:


> Very true. He is never Chinese, also including those Taiwanese. They are western lickers. The truth is China is getting richer, so they start to admit themselves as Chinese race, like this Singaporean. What if China is as poor as beggar？ I'm sure they will find any excuse to exclude themselves from any relations with China.



Only those Taiwanese and HKers who are loyal to PRC are our brothers and sisters.

The bananas can get lost, we won't give a damn about those rootless people.

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## Lux de Veritas

There are a lot of banana living in white man land.


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## jkroo

Lux de Veritas said:


> Min Nan/ Taiwanese is the direct descendant of old Chinese while Mandarin and Cantonese gone through the middle Chinese phase.
> 
> We preserve a lot of Chinese classics.
> 
> 不知道 - 毋知也
> 你 - 汝
> 筷子 - 箸
> 锅 - 鼎
> 不需要 - 免
> 眼睛 - 目
> 
> 
> 
> I receive a lot of challenges from PRCs that will never reason with logic and I am quite tired with such war. Many PRCs here resort to insult once their inferior logic got rebuttal.



Its good for you to preserve some culture classics.

There is no war in the forum for people always have diffrent point of view. Keyboard fighter do treat it as war. Illogic or not thats not the issue. Illminded do harm your discussions.


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## Grand Historian

Lux de Veritas said:


> There is one guy here who claim the vanquished murdered the inhabitants. I am to contradict him.
> 
> Cool down. Discuss logically.


Yet both the nomads and southern natives were several times dwarfed by Han Chinese there's a reason why Han Chinese still exists today and Baiyue and Xianbei/Xiongnu doesn't.

You are the one insinuating that Northerners are somehow dumber and how they aren't Huaxia.

I detect some racism from your posts,you blame the nomads for somehow corrupting Han Chinese morally and making them stupider.

You are the one with Malay blood yet you question if Northern Han Chinese are descendend from Huaxia

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## Lux de Veritas

Grand Historian said:


> Yet both the nomads and southern natives were several times dwarfed by Han Chinese there's a reason why Han Chinese still exists today and Baiyue and Xianbei/Xiongnu doesn't.
> 
> You are the one insinuating that Northerners are somehow dumber and how they aren't Huaxia.
> 
> I detect some racism from your posts,you blame the nomads for somehow corrupting Han Chinese morally and making them stupider.
> 
> You are the one with Malay blood yet you question if Northern Han Chinese are descendend from Huaxia



It is the fact the yellow river region are not as prosperous as coastal cities. During the high school exam, the Southern China are penalized to give Northern China advantage.

I do not know if you can infer that Northern Chinese is as smart from such circumstances.

As I have said, I personally admit that Southern Chinese are mixed. So I would not discriminate Northern Chinese mixed with nomads. You guys are calling me Malay. I do not know whether you guys are racist?


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## ChineseTiger1986

Grand Historian said:


> Yet both the nomads and southern natives were several times dwarfed by Han Chinese there's a reason why Han Chinese still exists today and Baiyue and Xianbei/Xiongnu doesn't.
> 
> You are the one insinuating that Northerners are somehow dumber and how they aren't Huaxia.
> 
> I detect some racism from your posts,you blame the nomads for somehow corrupting Han Chinese morally and making them stupider.
> 
> You are the one with Malay blood yet you question if Northern Han Chinese are descendend from Huaxia



North Han is about 90% or more of Huaxia bloodline, while South Han is about 60-70% of Huaxia bloodline.

While South Han has slightly less Huaxia bloodline, but the Huaxia culture is very tolerant and willing to assimilate more people.

That's why we leave the option for Vietnam and Korea to be fully sinicized and to become part of Huaxia, it is up to them.

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## jkroo

Our people should be more open-minded. So many people from so many countries love to talk our country. Its a good step. Let the symphony be louder. We should thank people who like us and hate us. Its not that bad right?

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## Lux de Veritas

jkroo said:


> Our people should be more open-minded. So many people from so many countries love to talk our country. Its a good step. Let the symphony be louder. We should thank people who like us and hate us. Its not that bad right?





ChineseTiger1986 said:


> North Han is about 90% or more of Huaxia bloodline, while South Han is about 60-70% of Huaxia bloodline.
> 
> While South Han has slightly less Huaxia bloodline, but the Huaxia culture is very tolerant and willing to assimilate more people.
> 
> That's why we leave the option for Vietnam and Korea to be fully sinicized and to become part of Huaxia, it is up to them.



There is no way China can be the largest country and population for most part of human history without absorbing minorities. The relative tolerant of Chinese civilization is what make it great. That is the reason I dont get offended when people say I am Malay.

The Tang are so great because of minorities blood. All Chinese like Tang. The Jin dynasty is full of decadence, drug taking 五石散, womanizing, exploitation...etc. They are the purer Han people, a sunset race. The Tang are invigorated by minorities blood.

We must proud of minorities blood in us. In fact, some historian claim that Han race never die out compared to other old civilization and keep on expanding because we take in minorities.

The Ming are hopeless. The Qing are vibrant. 

The only people who cling on to radical sectarianism are Islamofascist and German Nazi. Such ideology will bring them nowhere.


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## Grand Historian

Lux de Veritas said:


> It is the fact the yellow river region are not as prosperous as coastal cities. During the high school exam, the Southern China are penalized to give Northern China advantage.
> 
> I do not know if you can infer that Northern Chinese is as smart from such circumstances.
> 
> As I have said, I personally admit that Southern Chinese are mixed. So I would not discriminate Northern Chinese mixed with nomads. You guys are calling me Malay. I do not know whether you guys are racist?


That doesn't mean on a case by case basis that Northern Chinese are innately dumber.

You said so yourself that you have Malay blood but you still claim to be Chinese,I have nothing against Malays rather I have issues when people try to claim what they aren't.

The gist of what I'm saying is you claim others are not pure when you aren't pure yourself quite hypocritical isn't it.

I don't claim I can represent Chinese people, only mainland Chinese people can represent themselves.

Your claims of being a patriotic Chinese is ridiculous,you don't live in the PRC,you don't serve in the armed forces of the PRC inf fact you don't support the PRC.

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## Lux de Veritas

Ming's map during Yongle. Much smaller later.







Qing Dynasty.


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## Grand Historian

Lux de Veritas said:


> There is no way China can be the largest country and population for most part of human history without absorbing minorities. The relative tolerant of Chinese civilization is what make it great. That is the reason I dont get offended when people say I am Malay.
> 
> The Tang are so great because of minorities blood. All Chinese like Tang. The Jin dynasty is full of decadence, drug taking 五石散, womanizing, exploitation...etc. They are the purer Han people, a sunset race. The Tang are invigorated by minorities blood.
> 
> We must proud of minorities blood in us. In fact, some historian claim that Han race never die out compared to other old civilization and keep on expanding because we take in minorities.
> 
> The Ming are hopeless. The Qing are vibrant.
> 
> The only people who cling on to radical sectarianism are Islamofascist and German Nazi. Such ideology will bring them nowhere.


Which Chinese forum member has claimed that Han/Huaxia people never mixed with anyone?

Now you do a complete 360 you previously stated that Northern Hans are dumb because they are mixed with nomads now all of a sudden minorities are some miracle drug that can save China.

Each dyansty is great at thebeginning and becomes hopelessly corrupt in the end doesn't matter which emperor sits on the throne.

Why should I be or any other Chinese be proud of foreign ancestry?

I recognize I have some Pingpu aborigine blood this doesn't make me special in any way rather I identify more with my Chinese side 

However embracing the minority side leads to virulent nationalists claiming that you are actually not Chinese which is beyond infuriating.

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## Lux de Veritas

Grand Historian said:


> That doesn't mean on a case by case basis that Northern Chinese are innately dumber.
> 
> You said so yourself that you have Malay blood but you still claim to be Chinese,I have nothing against Malays rather I have issues when people try to claim what they aren't.
> 
> The gist of what I'm saying is you claim others are not pure when you aren't pure yourself quite hypocritical isn't it.
> 
> I don't claim I can represent Chinese people, only mainland Chinese people can represent themselves.
> 
> Your claims of being a patriotic Chinese is ridiculous,you don't live in the PRC,you don't serve in the armed forces of the PRC inf fact you don't support the PRC.



Don discuss this way. We look at 高考让分。

Maybe I should clarify and say I am a "cultural Chinese" in Singapore.



Grand Historian said:


> Which Chinese forum member has claimed that Han/Huaxia people never mixed with anyone?
> 
> Now you do a complete 360 you previously stated that Northern Hans are dumb because they are mixed with nomads now all of a sudden minorities are some miracle drug that can save China.
> 
> Each dyansty is great at thebeginning and becomes hopelessly corrupt in the end doesn't matter which emperor sits on the throne.
> 
> Why should I be or any other Chinese be proud of foreign ancestry?
> 
> I recognize I have some Pingpu aborigine blood this doesn't make me special in any way rather I identify more with my Chinese side
> 
> However embracing the minority side leads to virulent nationalists claiming that you are actually not Chinese which is beyond infuriating.



I think you should read my writings carefully. I do not claim Northern Chinese are dumb because they are mixed. I claim social political and economical circumstances like urbanization, exposure to the world, which coastal cities has greater advantages.

We are entitled our own opinion to be proud of the whatever we choose.


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## jkroo

Someone use a westner mindset and start to fabricate the map now. Thats why I said illminded harm the discussions. How much hatred and jealous planted cause someone act like this

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## Grand Historian

Lux de Veritas said:


> Don discuss this way. We look at 高考让分。
> 
> Maybe I should clarify and say I am a "cultural Chinese" in Singapore.


So a single test is supposed to justify that Southern Chinese are inherently smarter?

Give me a break Northern,Central and Western China are not as developed as the coastal areas,I'm sure there are plenty of Northern Chinese that are smarter than you.

Yes you are culturally Chinese,that doesn't mean you represent all of us.



Lux de Veritas said:


> I think you should read my writings carefully. I do not claim Northern Chinese are dumb because they are mixed. I claim social political and economical circumstances like urbanization, exposure to the world, which coastal cities has greater advantages.
> 
> We are entitled our own opinion to be proud of the whatever we choose.


You seem to dislike Northern Chinese for some reason always stating how they are admixed with other ethnicties and how Minnan is an derived off Old Chinese,even trying to invent a Southern origin of Chinese people.

Extolling the virtues of minorities is ridiculous,vice exists in any ethnicity minorities and Han Chinese are equal. 

Of course you are entitled to your own opinion,that doesn't make what you say true necessarily.

I'm not trying to say I'm a paragon of human behavior but at least I don't troll other people.

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## jkroo

Qing

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## Grand Historian

EastSea said:


> You can check here.
> 
> Đại Việt sử lược - Đọc trực tuyến - SachbaoVN
> 
> I don't find the Chinese version text on line. I quoted the clause is translated in to Vietnamese, as following:
> 
> *"Khi ấy Việt Câu Tiễn sai sứ đến dụ, Hùng Vương cự tuyệt"*. I translated in to English:
> 
> " *In this time Yue King Goujian sended envoy to persuade, Hùng Vương has been refused* ".
> 
> In any case, there is textual evidence to proof that our King Hung Vuong had relation with Wu Yue Kingdom.


Thank you for providing the source.

Sigh,I said relevant sources not sources written almost 2000 years later.

No Chinese source has ever mentioned Xich Quy,Van Lang or the Hung kings...

You've been recycling the same debunked claims over and over again,I've already stated numerous times why the Hung kings could not have existed and that you never provide any relevant proof.

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## nalan

jkroo said:


> Someone use a westner mindset and start to fabricate the map now. Thats why I said illminded harm the discussions. How much hatred and jealous planted cause someone act like this


Ignore him, Soviet Union did not exist in his mind



jkroo said:


> Our people should be more open-minded. So many people from so many countries love to talk our country. Its a good step. Let the symphony be louder. We should thank people who like us and hate us. Its not that bad right?


more open-minded?why come here?i don not belive IQ,but EQ,of cause you could do what you want,but it could make you feel better?

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## EastSea

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The progressive phenotype of Huaxia is the best looking in East Asia.
> 
> If the Huaxia culture is not beautiful, then Wuyue/Minyue/Nanyue wouldn't want to join it.



Take a relax, chinese bro.

I don't think Hua Xia phenotype is presented for Chinese beauty today.

I think Hua Xia is like this.








and now,






After mixing with Bai Yue, Dongji or beidi, chinese have today also big eyes.


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## S10

Did someone claim Nan Yue Kingdom was Vietnamese? Is this supposed to be a joke?

It was established by a Qin dynasty general called Zhao Tuo with Qin troops. The capital was located in modern day Guangzhou. There is nothing remotely Vietnamese about it.

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## ChineseTiger1986

EastSea said:


> Take a relax, chinese bro.
> 
> I don't think Hua Xia phenotype is presented for Chinese beauty today.
> 
> I think Hua Xia is like this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and now,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After mixing with Bai Yue, Dongji or beidi, chinese have today also big eyes.



Well, your claim just got debunked in our previous post.


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## Grand Historian

S10 said:


> Did someone claim Nan Yue Kingdom was Vietnamese? Is this supposed to be a joke?
> 
> It was established by a Qin dynasty general called Zhao Tuo with Qin troops. The capital was located in modern day Guangzhou. There is nothing remotely Vietnamese about it.


Exactly,I ask Vietnamese members to name one reason why it was Vietnamese and then all of sudden they disappear.

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## EastSea

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> If her phenotype is not Huaxia, then what it is?
> 
> Of course, it is the pure Huaxia phenotype. Here is the Chinese drama about the King of Yue Goujian, and it is also dubbed in Vietnamese.
> 
> The Xishi in this drama also has this kind of phenotype, so probably the real Xishi also looked like that, it is the genuine Huaxia phenotype, while the Baiyue phenotype is fugly, even the Baiyue people themselves hate it.



Why you look down at Wu Yue beauty ?, don't forget that adviser Fun Li : 范蠡 had a great "beauty tactic" to give Thi Di Quang to Wu King Fuchai .


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## ChineseTiger1986

EastSea said:


> Why you look down at Wu Yue beauty ?, don't forget that adviser Fun Li : 范蠡 had a great "beauty tactic" to give Thi Di Quang to Wu King Fuchai .



Xishi is a Huaxia beauty, and this is the Wuyue(Baiyue) beauty.








EastSea said:


> Why you look down at Wu Yue beauty ?, don't forget that adviser Fun Li : 范蠡 had a great "beauty tactic" to give Thi Di Quang to Wu King Fuchai .



BTW, hopefully you can enjoy the Chinese drama dubbed in Vietnamese.


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## EastSea

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Well, your claim just got debunked in our previous post.



no, Hua Xia was small eyes. Today Chinese is mixed with four Ji Dong Ji, bei di, Xi rong and bai yue, you could have both small and big eyes.



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Xishi is a Huaxia beauty, and this is the Wuyue(Baiyue) beauty.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, hopefully you can enjoy the Chinese drama dubbed in Vietnamese.



It is not true Xi Shi in real history in the past.


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## ChineseTiger1986

EastSea said:


> no, Hua Xia was small eyes. Today Chinese is mixed with four Ji Dong Ji, bei di, Xi rong and bai yue, you could have both small and big eyes.
> 
> 
> 
> It is not true Xi Shi in real history in the past.



These people are pure the unmixed relics of Huaxia, they can have big eyes as well.


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## jkroo

EastSea said:


> Take a relax, chinese bro.
> 
> I don't think Hua Xia phenotype is presented for Chinese beauty today.
> 
> I think Hua Xia is like this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and now,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After mixing with Bai Yue, Dongji or beidi, chinese have today also big eyes.


You think ancient VN people contribute positive to southern Han. Wow... what a logic. By your logic VN people have big eyes and big head so that you people is ok.

As a southern Han 吴越 has nothing to do with VN. You have no need to prove your superioty by connecting your ethnic and history with 吴越.

Dont wanna hurt you but your logic and sense is really funny. Help yourself to drag you out of darkness and get yourself teached.

Clear?


----------



## nalan

Lux de Veritas said:


> There are several Chinese commenters who make examples to show that they are close. Nowadays, I would not want to rebut them in their face. What they have shown can be a mis-information, but as I Southern Chinese, I will say their examples are perfectly right, nevertheless, trying to mislead.
> 
> If I go and rebut, these PRC could get so irrational that they make an all out war with me.
> 
> The better understanding of Mandarin, Cantonese and Min Nan/Taiwanese is
> 
> they are 100% mutually unintelligible.
> The colloquial lexicon and grammar can be very different.
> The literal lexicon could be much more similar. Just like Vietnamese and Korean, literal part of their languages are much more similar to Mandarin.
> Nevertheless, there are a lot of overlap between Northern and Southern Chinese lexicon that make it a Chinese language. I believe if Vietnam and Korea are ruled by China as long as us, both the language will be purge of alien components and get very converge to Chinese.
> There may be barely such things as literal Cantonese, as Cantonese can pronounce mandarin sentences and lexicon using their phonetics and tones. So that is one factor that* make Cantonese very Chinese*.


just because the pronunciation make Mandarin very Chinese?why use the western standard and cut off the character?there are no inheritance or variation?you tell me chinese character was invented by one man?there existed character first or pronunciation first is important for savage tribes?of cause you dont want to be chinese and use chinese language,just give up chinese characters,only use alphabet(if it could be superiorer than western language) or invented another characters systerm(a joke).


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## bolo

EastSea said:


> An international study has found that the *Chinese people originated not from Peking Man in northern China, but from early humans in East Africa who moved through South Asia to China some 100,000 years ago,* Hong Kongs Ming Pao daily reported yesterday in a finding that confirms the single origin theory in anthropology.
> 
> According to the newspaper, a research team led by Jin Li (of Fudan University in Shanghai has found that modern humans evolved from a single origin, not multiple origins as some experts believe.
> 
> In China, school textbooks teach that the Chinese race evolved from Peking Man, based on a theory that humans in Europe and Asia evolved from local species.
> 
> But Jin and his fellow researchers found that early humans belonged to different species, of which only the East African species developed into modern humans.
> 
> This new finding nullifies the theory that the ancestors of the Chinese people were Peking Man who lived in northern China 400,000 years ago.
> 
> Based on DNA analyses of 100,000 samples gathered from around the world, a number of human families evolved in East Africa some 150,000 years ago, said Li Hui, a member of Jins team.
> 
> About 100,000 years ago, some of those humans began to leave Africa, with some people moving to China via South and Southeast Asia, Li said.
> 
> According to the newspaper article, it has been proven that the 65 branches of the Chinese race share similar DNA mutations with the peoples of East and Southeast Asia.
> 
> It said that the Shanghai scientists were part of an international team comprised of researchers from Russia, India, Brazil and other nations in a five-year project studying the geographic and genealogical routes related to the spread and settlement of modern humans.
> 
> copy from: trinicenter.com - Ancient Chinese



LOL. Dude, quit using article from 2004. Anthropology and science have evolved since then. And there are scientific proof that humans did not soley origniated from Africa. Neanderthals also existed not just homo sapiens. In fact genetics can prove that every person who isn't black has at least 1-3% Neanderthal gene. 

So no, the Africo-centric view on human origin is just not cutting it anymore.

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## EastSea

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> These people are pure the unmixed relics of Huaxia, they can have big eyes as well.



Don't lie.

She is not Han Chinese from Hua Xia. She is demo photo for Qing minority ethnic of Qiang people live in the *northwest Sichuan*,

The Chinese Qiang Ethnic Minority, Qiang People in China


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## bolo

INDIC said:


> But most of the overseas Chinese are Cantonese. You sure about Tang originating from Town because they don't sound similar.



Overseas Chinese use this term "Tang" because it was one of China's strongest dynasty, so it's use as a term for "Chinese"

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## ChineseTiger1986

EastSea said:


> Don't lie. She is not Han Chinese from Hua Xia. She is demo photo for Qing majority of Qiang people live in the *northwest Sichuan*,
> 
> The Chinese Qiang Ethnic Minority, Qiang People in China



Qiang is the close relative of Huaxia, and their males carry almost 100% O3a.

The unmixed Huaxia probably looked like them.


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## EastSea

jkroo said:


> You think ancient VN people contribute positive to southern Han. Wow... what a logic. By your logic VN people have big eyes and big head so that you people is ok.
> 
> As a southern Han 吴越 has nothing to do with VN. You have no need to prove your superioty by connecting your ethnic and history with 吴越.
> 
> Dont wanna hurt you but your logic and sense is really funny. Help yourself to drag you out of darkness and get yourself teached.
> 
> Clear?



read my comments again, the debate now is about beauty of Hua Xia and Wu Yue with Mr. Chinese Tiger1986.



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Qiang is the close relative of Huaxia, and their males carry almost 100% O3a.
> 
> The unmixed Huaxia probably looked like them.



Don't make you more funny, The Qiang ethnic group has been officially recognized as ethnically distinct by the People's Republic of China. They are not Han Chinese, like Hmong Mien, Zhuang ... etc, understand ?


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

EastSea said:


> read my comments again, the debate now is about beauty of Hua Xia and Wu Yue with Mr. Chinese Tiger1986.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't make you more funny, The Qiang ethnic group has been officially recognized as ethnically distinct by the People's Republic of China. They are not Han Chinese, like Hmong Mien, Zhuang ... etc, understand ?



They are not Hans, but they are also Sino-Tibetans, so they are closely related to Huaxia.


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## jkroo

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> They are not Hans, but they are also Sino-Tibetans, so they are closely related to Huaxia.


Diversity is a good thing. I am astonished we come from China have almostly the same viewpoint related to the topic.

Somebody just show how their Chinese culture learned from. Its not so bad but far from good.

Tiger bro,are you a member from apppearance association? Haha, please dont argue them with this.

Since foreign people love to talk issues of your family. Hmm, act as who we are and be a man. Smile but prepare your stick to prevent some wild dog barking you. You just did it. 

Confucius teach us 知白守黑，为天下式
Yijing teach us philosophy of nature and society. 阴阳八卦，应对变化，应对人生。

Good to meet you guys and also make my journey very happy.


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## Lux de Veritas

jkroo said:


> Someone use a westner mindset and start to fabricate the map now. Thats why I said illminded harm the discussions. How much hatred and jealous planted cause someone act like this



Below is by Hudong baike


明朝_互动百科
明朝的领土囊括今日内地十八省之范围，初年东北抵日本海、外兴安岭、黑龙江流域诸部落有宗主权，后缩为辽河流域；初年北达戈壁沙漠一带，后改为今长城；西北至新疆哈密，后改为嘉峪关；并曾在今满洲、新疆东部、西藏等地设有羁縻机构。明成祖时期甚至短暂征服并统治安南（今越南北部），*西元1415年，明朝领土面积达到约730万平方公里*。

清朝_互动百科
1759年（乾隆二十四年）清朝统一全国后的疆域是：北起蒙古唐努乌梁海地区及西伯利亚，南至南海，包括“千里石塘、万里长沙、曾母暗沙”（即今西沙群岛、南沙群岛等南海岛礁），西南达西藏的达旺地区、云南省的南坎、江心坡地区及缅甸北部，西尽咸海与葱岭地区，包括今新疆以及中亚巴尔喀什湖，东北抵外兴安岭，包括库页岛，东南包括台湾、澎湖群岛。*极盛时总面积达1300万平方公里。*

除此之外，许多周边国家都成为清朝的藩属国，在盛清之时的藩属有：东边的李氏朝鲜、琉球，中南半岛有安南、南掌（老挝）、暹罗（泰国）、缅甸，西南有廓尔喀（尼泊尔）、哲孟雄（锡金）、不丹，中亚西亚有浩罕、哈萨克、布鲁特、布哈尔、山克、爱乌罕（阿富汗）等藩属国。


Please study more. I wont reply you again in this thread.



nalan said:


> just because the pronunciation make Mandarin very Chinese?why use the western standard and cut off the character?there are no inheritance or variation?you tell me chinese character was invented by one man?there existed character first or pronunciation first is important for savage tribes?of cause you dont want to be chinese and use chinese language,just give up chinese characters,only use alphabet(if it could be superiorer than western language) or invented another characters systerm(a joke).



Cool down. I am not advocating anything you have accused. The PRC need to read carefully what I have written. And also please write properly as I am not able to get what you are trying to say in some parts.


----------



## Lux de Veritas

Grand Historian said:


> So a single test is supposed to justify that Southern Chinese are inherently smarter?
> 
> Give me a break Northern,Central and Western China are not as developed as the coastal areas,I'm sure there are plenty of Northern Chinese that are smarter than you.
> 
> Yes you are culturally Chinese,that doesn't mean you represent all of us.
> 
> 
> You seem to dislike Northern Chinese for some reason always stating how they are admixed with other ethnicties and how Minnan is an derived off Old Chinese,even trying to invent a Southern origin of Chinese people.
> 
> Extolling the virtues of minorities is ridiculous,vice exists in any ethnicity minorities and Han Chinese are equal.
> 
> Of course you are entitled to your own opinion,that doesn't make what you say true necessarily.
> 
> I'm not trying to say I'm a paragon of human behavior but at least I don't troll other people.



I do not dislike Northern Chinese. I am stating an inconvenient fact. 

The non homogeneous composition of Han Chinese and Sinitic lect are establish fact. 汉人不是单一民族 Do not get angry for when I state a fact.

Discuss logically -- please. Blind accusation will not bring us forward.


----------



## jkroo

tupian@baike@com @ a3_24_31_01300000244176122580313165327_jpg.html
I got the pic from 互动百科，tell me whats the difference. Are you trying to prove sb. trolling or sth?

About the red part Hanzi, I cant find it for the device and eyesight problem. Direct link provide will be appreciated.

For the changing of land numbers please using a dynamic pointviews. The world keep changing.

Not granted for post link. Link patched.

汉族不是一个民族那是几个？听听高见？


----------



## nalan

Lux de Veritas said:


> I do not dislike Northern Chinese. I am stating an inconvenient fact.
> 
> The non homogeneous composition of Han Chinese and Sinitic lect are establish fact. 汉人不是单一民族 Do not get angry for when I state a fact.
> 
> Discuss logically -- please. Blind accusation will not bring us forward.





Lux de Veritas said:


> Below is by Hudong baike
> 
> 
> 明朝_互动百科
> 明朝的领土囊括今日内地十八省之范围，初年东北抵日本海、外兴安岭、黑龙江流域诸部落有宗主权，后缩为辽河流域；初年北达戈壁沙漠一带，后改为今长城；西北至新疆哈密，后改为嘉峪关；并曾在今满洲、新疆东部、西藏等地设有*羁縻*机构。明成祖时期甚至短暂征服并统治安南（今越南北部），*西元1415年，明朝领土面积达到约730万平方公里*。
> 
> 清朝_互动百科
> 1759年（乾隆二十四年）清朝统一全国后的疆域是：北起蒙古唐努乌梁海地区及西伯利亚，南至南海，包括“千里石塘、万里长沙、曾母暗沙”（即今西沙群岛、南沙群岛等南海岛礁），西南达西藏的达旺地区、云南省的南坎、江心坡地区及缅甸北部，西尽咸海与葱岭地区，包括今新疆以及中亚巴尔喀什湖，东北抵外兴安岭，包括库页岛，东南包括台湾、澎湖群岛。*极盛时总面积达1300万平方公里。*
> 
> 除此之外，许多周边国家都成为清朝的藩属国，在盛清之时的藩属有：东边的李氏朝鲜、琉球，中南半岛有安南、南掌（老挝）、暹罗（泰国）、缅甸，西南有廓尔喀（尼泊尔）、哲孟雄（锡金）、不丹，中亚西亚有浩罕、哈萨克、布鲁特、布哈尔、山克、爱乌罕（阿富汗）等藩属国。
> 
> 
> Please study more. I wont reply you again in this thread.
> 
> 
> 
> Cool down. I am not advocating anything you have accused. The PRC need to read carefully what I have written. And also please write properly as I am not able to get what you are trying to say in some parts.


you should suggest japan give up chinese characters,use their alphabets instead.if they give up their alphabets,we will ask for they are chinese language.


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## Lux de Veritas

bye bye PRC guys. I will be out of this thread permanently.


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## jkroo

nalan said:


> you should suggest japan give up chinese characters,use their alphabets instead.if they dont give up their alphabets,we will ask for they are chinese language.


No, no Bro, its good to see some foreign people read and write Chinese. Lets wait and see how they are well educated.


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## Grand Historian

Lux de Veritas said:


> I do not dislike Northern Chinese. I am stating an inconvenient fact.
> 
> The non homogeneous composition of Han Chinese and Sinitic lect are establish fact. 汉人不是单一民族 Do not get angry for when I state a fact.
> 
> Discuss logically -- please. Blind accusation will not bring us forward.


That's rich coming from you,in the end you are nothing more than a hypocrite you called Northern Chinese bastard's of Mongols and Manchus.

"Northern Chinese are bastard Mongols and Turks."

You state there was a large influx of nomads so Northern Chinese are now Xianbei,Mongol and Manchu now provide the statistics to back it up.

You proclaim that minorities invigorate China,Han Chinese rulers established plenty without minorities.

I never stated that Han Chinese are homogeneous,from the beginning the Han have been assimilating neighboring people.

This doesn't mean that I owe anything to minorities.

How is Han not one ethnicity,ethnic identities are man made constructs as long as Han Chinese believe they are Han then they are Han nothing you say is going to change this.

You are beginning to sound like anti-Chinese nationalists who would love a divided China where Han Chinese doesn't exist and can't claim to be Chinese because they are assimilated minorities.

Everyone can see what a fraud you are,anyone who disagrees with you is apparently a lacky of the PRC.

Your past claims are hilarious,Chinese hate the CCP,Mao is evil,Northern Chinese are bastard minorities,Taiwanese are Malay,PRC Chinese members on this forum are idiots etc.

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## jkroo

汉族从历史，血源，文化和官方的角度都是一个民族。
@nalan We are happy，industrial, humble and kindhearted farmer. But You just hurt someone.

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## Genesis

Why is there these threads keep appearing, who cares. 

1.3 PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC OF CHINA Chinese is working hard on reclaiming the number one chair. 

I don't care, who calls themself Chinese, African, South Asian, Chinese, Martian, whatever, you want the same thing as me and that is the rise of our nation, and you hold a Chinese passport, then you are my comrade in arms. That is all. 

As to the rest it is irrelevant.


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## nalan

jkroo said:


> @nalan We are happy，industrial, humble and kindhearted farmer. But You just hurt someone.


sorry,my english is poor.to be honest,i am not prc fan,but it does not mean i will against everything,right?i just fear so many people hurt others even himself .i argue doesnot mean i am right,just wreak.i hate talking about IQ everyday.is it true or important?others dont have eyes just because your superiority?sorry,just a point from 矮矬穷


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## S10

When people talk about Han, they generally refer to it as an ethnic group. However, it is as much of a cultural group as an ethnic one. Dozens of tribes and ethnicities over the course of Chinese history adopted Han culture, and fused into the group. By the same token, Han culture also evolved due to the infusion of newcomers.

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## Viet

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> So do you acknowledge that the Huaxia phenotype is overall better looking?
> 
> Here is 4 Viet girls, the second one from the right is the pure progressive Huaxia phenotype, while the other 3 girls belong to the mixed phenotype between Huaxia and Baiyue.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then you can understand why Wuyue/Minyue/Nanyue love the beautiful Huaxia so much and always want to be part of it.


those girls are HOT, long legs, especially the one you mention is indeed very sinic. the mixed Chinese/Vietnamese are more beautiful. common Viet girls look so

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## INDIC

bolo said:


> Overseas Chinese use this term "Tang" because it was one of China's strongest dynasty, so it's use as a term for "Chinese"



But I heard Tangs moved to the south and siniticized the natives and also intermarried with them, so they prefer calling themselves as Tang people since there weren't siniticized during Han Dynasty.


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## Viet

Grand Historian said:


> Exactly,I ask Vietnamese members to name one reason why it was Vietnamese and then all of sudden they disappear.


yue=Viet
nanyue=NamViet, large part of today Vietnam
Zhao Tuo was a Qin general. however, he founded the country Nanyue in 204 BC after the collapse of the Qin.
Nanyue was a sovereign nation, independent from the Han
submission to the Han emperors was superficial, as Nanyue retained autonomy
Zhao referred himself as Emperor throughout Nanyue until his death


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## jkroo

Viet said:


> yue=Viet
> nanyue=NamViet, large part of today Vietnam
> Zhao Tuo was a Qin general. however, he founded the country Nanyue in 204 BC after the collapse of the Qin.
> Nanyue was a sovereign nation, independent from the Han
> submission to the Han emperors was superficial, as Nanyue retained autonomy
> Zhao referred himself as Emperor throughout Nanyue until his death


Its ok for your VN people to treat General Zhao of Qin dynasty as your anscistor.
Just teach you a lesson:
Nanyue=南粤=南越=//=越南
Nanyue is totally different from 越南.
Viet or something else pronouciation has nothing to do with Nanyue.
Use your limited Chinese culture harder to figure it out.
Nanyue is part of Chinese history and has submit itself to the rule of Han dynasty.
You people have so much delusions.

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## Grand Historian

Viet said:


> yue=Viet
> nanyue=NamViet, large part of today Vietnam
> Zhao Tuo was a Qin general. however, he founded the country Nanyue in 204 BC after the collapse of the Qin.
> Nanyue was a sovereign nation, independent from the Han
> submission to the Han emperors was superficial, as Nanyue retained autonomy
> Zhao referred himself as Emperor throughout Nanyue until his death


Yue=/= Viet

Despite what EastSea says the Yue state of Goujian has nothing to do with the Yue of Vietnam.

I already stated that the there was no pan-Yue identity back then.

Not all Baiyue's are Vietnamese but Vietnamese are part of the Baiyue.

Prove that the Yue in Guangdong and Guangxi ever identified with the people living in Northern Vietnam.

Zhao Tuo was ethnically Chinese nothing you say changes this.

Yet Zhao Tuo groveled and was willing to be a Han vassal his willingness to cease his attack on Changsha state of Wu Rui shows his submission.

Nanyue governed itself,autonomy doesn't make it Vietnamese.

Bronze drums disappeared after the Zhao Tuo and his progeny ruled according to Keiji Imamura.

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## Viet

Grand Historian said:


> Yue=/= Viet
> 
> Despite what EastSea says the Yue state of Goujian has nothing to do with the Yue of Vietnam.
> 
> I already stated that the there was no pan-Yue identity back then.
> 
> Not all Baiyue's are Vietnamese but Vietnamese are part of the Baiyue.
> 
> Prove that the Yue in Guangdong and Guangxi ever identified with the people living in Northern Vietnam.
> 
> Zhao Tuo was ethnically Chinese nothing you say changes this.
> 
> Yet Zhao Tuo groveled and was willing to be a Han vassal his willingness to cease his attack on Changsha state of Wu Rui shows his submission.
> 
> Nanyue governed itself,autonomy doesn't make it Vietnamese.
> 
> Bronze drums disappeared after the Zhao Tuo and his progeny ruled according to Keiji Imamura.


- yue=viet in our world
- we talk of nanyue, not Yue state of Goujian, which occurred ealier.
- why pan-yue identity was needed for the existence of nanyue as independent entity?
- agreed
- what a question. similiar if I ask you: prove that the people of Tibet ever identified with Xinjang?
- Catherine the Great was a German. she ruled as emperor of Russia. there are a lot of non-native rulers in the world history. origin nationality does not count.
- Kingdom of Vietnam paid tributes to the Han as a sign of submission. Did Kingdom of Vietnam belong to China?
- independent government and autonomy mean sovereignty.


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## jkroo

Viet said:


> - yue=viet in our world
> - we talk of nanyue, not Yue state of Goujian, which occurred ealier.
> - why pan-yue identity was needed for the existence of nanyue as independent entity?
> - agreed
> - what a question. similiar if I ask you: prove that the people of Tibet ever identified with Xinjang?
> - Catherine the Great was a German. she ruled as emperor of Russia. there are a lot of non-native rulers in the world history. origin nationality does not count.
> - Kingdom of Vietnam paid tributes to the Han as a sign of submission. Did Kingdom of Vietnam belong to China?
> - independent government and autonomy mean sovereignty.



You just showed your illogical mind.

You are a confused person for using modern conceptions and definitions to claim your brilliant history.

You already have a independent coutry named as Viet Nam but you people keep claiming you are fighting for independent. I guess you are a VN internet warrior that defend your internet land that really never exist.

You show your independent history but I see no independent as an individual as you.

You show your contribution to Chinese but I also see no contribution except fabricated stuff.

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## Viet

jkroo said:


> Its ok for your VN people to treat General Zhao of Qin dynasty as your anscistor.
> Just teach you a lesson:
> Nanyue=南粤=南越=//=越南
> Nanyue is totally different from 越南.
> *Viet or something else pronouciation has nothing to do with Nanyue.*
> Use your limited Chinese culture harder to figure it out.
> Nanyue is part of Chinese history and has submit itself to the rule of Han dynasty.
> You people have so much delusions.


after the Viet emperor Gia Long re-united the country in year 1802, he wanted to rename his nation from Dai Viet (Great Viet) to Namviet. When he asked the Chinese emperor Jiāqìng for permission, however, Jiāqìng rejected the idea because he feared Vietnam could claim the ancient Kingdom of NamViet. as a compromise Gia Long was given the name Vietnam. switching the syllables.
if nanyue has nothing to do with the Viets and Vietnam, why Jiāqìng refused the name nanyue, but gave a goahead of yuenan?


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## jkroo

You see now Jiaqing give the name to your country as he wish and the name exists. What the fear of a empire?

Can you figure it now why 南越=//=越南 now? Do you need another lesson now? Try harder please.

So you show your brave logic by thinking the fearness of the master. Just go ahead please.

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## Viet

jkroo said:


> You see now Jiaqing give the name to your country as he wish and the name exists. What the fear of a empire?
> 
> Can you figure it now why 南越=//=越南 now? Do you need another lesson now? Try harder please.
> 
> So you show your brave logic by thinking the fearness of the master. Just go ahead please.


you are right, fear is the wrong word.

actually Vietnam wanted not only a goahead of Chinese emperor to the change of country name, but to a military campaign against the Kingdom of Siam. 
the Siamese had ermerged to a major threat for Vietnam as they controlled Laos and Cambodia, and sooner or later they would launch another attack to Vietnam. 

China should stay neutral should it come a confrontation in the region. I understand 南越 is not 越南, for you, but for us, it is the same. as a result, Vietnam under the Nguyen expelled and defeated the Siamese and dominated the indochinese region and beyond. the glorious era came to an end when the French arrived.


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## Wholegrain

Viet said:


> yue=Viet
> nanyue=NamViet, large part of today Vietnam
> Zhao Tuo was a Qin general. however, he founded the country Nanyue in 204 BC after the collapse of the Qin.
> Nanyue was a sovereign nation, independent from the Han
> submission to the Han emperors was superficial, as Nanyue retained autonomy
> Zhao referred himself as Emperor throughout Nanyue until his death



Again you are posting BS. the inhabitants of Guangdong and Guangxi were Tai. We even have Zhuang Tai people living in Guangxi and northern Vietnam NOW.
















This is Kinh people's home








Lux de Veritas said:


> I have all along suggest "y chromosome" genetist migration theory and anthropological theory could have need further reconciliation. I think I have made myself clear enough.
> 
> If you cite O3 Y chromosome, do it all the way, and conclusion is Chinese come from SE Asian, as most leading Y chromosome expert propose. So the similarity of Northern and Southern Chinese Y chromosome could be due to people from South moving North.
> 
> Y-Chromosome Evidence for a Northward Migration of Modern Humans into Eastern Asia during the Last Ice Age
> 
> Investigative Genetics | Full text | Inferring human history in East Asia from Y chromosomes
> 
> PLOS ONE: Human Migration through Bottlenecks from Southeast Asia into East Asia during Last Glacial Maximum Revealed by Y Chromosomes
> 
> 
> IQ shows nothing about ancestry. Today, the high IQ centers of China are Shanghai, Guangdong, Taiwan and HK are all former barbarian land. The Yellow river plains and Xi-an, cradle of Han civilization are now low IQ, poor people receiving state aid.
> 
> 
> 
> This is a reasonable voice that we may move on from here.



It seems you have no damn idea what those scientific papers are talking about.

That migration happened in PREhistoric times, before there were ethnic groups even existing.

In the PREHISTORIC era during the last ice age, the Y Chromosome Haplogroup O did indeed originate in southeast asia. Then these Y chromosome haplogroup O bearers moved in a major migration from southeast asia all the way to northern China. 

Then, the Y Chromosome O started mutating into subclades along the way of the migration. Those Y chromosome O people who moved to northern China became Y Chromosome O3a, those other Y chromosome O people in southern China and southeast asia also mutated during their migration, and became O1 or O2.

That was all in prehistoric times. Then in historical times, that means in recorded history, ethnic groups began to form. The Huaxia (Northern Han Chinese) ethnic group formed among Oa3 bearers in northern China, while Baiyue tribes formed among O2 and O1 peoples in southern China. Then, we have the recorded conquests of the Qin and Han dynasty conquering southern China, and the migrations of northern Han to southern China during the Han, Eastern Jin dynasty, Tang dynasty, and southern Song dynasty. Those Oa3 migrants displaced their O2 cousins that they left behind in southern China.

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## Wholegrain

Lux de Veritas said:


> The Min Nan are closest to old Chinese for your info. The lect we speak are very close to Chinese classics which is considered elegant by some Chinese language expert.
> 
> From hudong baike
> 
> 闽南方言保留下来的古汉语较多，因此被学术界称为“语言的活化石”。闽南方言历来为国内外语言学家所重视。 这对汉语古音的构拟，古籍的训释，汉语史的研究都具有重要的意义。
> 
> 
> 
> Actually the coaster cities got high IQ because of urbanization and smart people all over flooded there. Also they are the windows of China. I am pretty aware of that.



Exactly, Minnan is closer to Old Chinese than Mandarin, since people in Fujian are largely descended on their male side form northern Han migrants, which contradicts your BS claim that southern Chinese are "sinicized Malays".



Lux de Veritas said:


> I do not dislike Northern Chinese. I am stating an inconvenient fact.
> 
> The non homogeneous composition of Han Chinese and Sinitic lect are establish fact. 汉人不是单一民族 Do not get angry for when I state a fact.
> 
> Discuss logically -- please. Blind accusation will not bring us forward.



Your stating false BS like claiming a few thousand nomads can change the DNA of millions of people. Do you have any idea how small the Xianbei population of northern China was? Do you know today that there are still only 10 million Manchus (INCLUDING Han bannermen and Mongol bannermen) today, among hundreds of millions of northern Han?

A ruling class, by definition, will be way smaller than the general population. There could be 1,000 Xianbei and thry could make up 90% of the aristocracy and have all their names recorded in whatever history book, and it they still can't do **** to change the DNA of millions of people.

Chinese dialects non-homogenous? Do you even know what homogenous means? There is a degree of which dialect is closer to the Old Chinese, and indeed southern dialects are closer, while Mandarin is more distant, and thats just because Mandarin drifted and evolved more than southern dialects, it that has nothing to do with the genetic makeup of the people speaking it. ALL languages and dialects evolve and change, even if they don't come into contact with others. Even languages on isolated islands off the coast of Papua New Guinea will change from what they were spoken like 2,000 years ago, some will drift more than others.



INDIC said:


> But I heard Tangs moved to the south and siniticized the natives and also intermarried with them, so they prefer calling themselves as Tang people since there weren't siniticized during Han Dynasty.



Northern Chinese migration started to southern China during the Qin and Han dynasties and big migrations happened in the eastern Jin dynasty. But natives still outnumbered migrants. It was during the late Tang when so many northern migrants moved south and finally outnumbered the natives, and during the Song, southern China overtook northern China in population.

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## Wholegrain

Lux de Veritas said:


> Min Nan/ Taiwanese is the direct descendant of old Chinese while Mandarin and Cantonese gone through the middle Chinese phase.
> 
> We preserve a lot of Chinese classics.
> 
> 不知道 - 毋知也
> 你 - 汝
> 筷子 - 箸
> 锅 - 鼎
> 不需要 - 免
> 眼睛 - 目
> 
> 
> 
> I receive a lot of challenges from PRCs that will never reason with logic and I am quite tired with such war. Many PRCs here resort to insult once their inferior logic got rebuttal.



Wrong. You have multiple issues, and not all of them are tied to your political pov. I'm not from the PRC btw.

For example, there are Singaporeans who are anti PRC, but they aren't concerned with any of this Baiyue, northern nomad bullsh** and don't go off spouting BS on history they don't know about. I can have a logical discussion with someone with a different political position, but doesn't spout crap about anthropology, history, genetics etc.

You, you have a laundry list of BS claims coming out of your mouth about how all northern Han all nomad descendants, (depite the fact that their percetage Haplogroup C is puny and most are O3a), southern Chinese are "sinicized Malays", that Vietnam is closer to southern Chinese, bla bla bla.

You do realize that these claims will get ANY logical person from the PRC, regardless of whether they support the CCP or not, angry? You know just because someone doesn't support the CCP, they won't angry with your BS? YOU are tying history and genetics to peoples political positions, claiming that only angry "youth" "PRC" disagree with your positions. I didn't know that the Communist party has published anything about genetics or anyting concerning your BS claims.

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## EastSea

Wholegrain said:


> Again you are posting BS. the inhabitants of Guangdong and Guangxi were Tai. We even have Zhuang Tai people living in Guangxi and northern Vietnam NOW.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is Kinh people's home
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It seems you have no damn idea what those scientific papers are talking about.
> 
> That migration happened in PREhistoric times, before there were ethnic groups even existing.
> 
> In the PREHISTORIC era during the last ice age, the Y Chromosome Haplogroup O did indeed originate in southeast asia. Then these Y chromosome haplogroup O bearers moved in a major migration from southeast asia all the way to northern China.
> 
> Then, the Y Chromosome O started mutating into subclades along the way of the migration. Those Y chromosome O people who moved to northern China became Y Chromosome O3a, those other Y chromosome O people in southern China and southeast asia also mutated during their migration, and became O1 or O2.
> 
> That was all in prehistoric times. Then in historical times, that means in recorded history, ethnic groups began to form. The Huaxia (Northern Han Chinese) ethnic group formed among Oa3 bearers in northern China, while Baiyue tribes formed among O2 and O1 peoples in southern China. Then, we have the recorded conquests of the Qin and Han dynasty conquering southern China, and the migrations of northern Han to southern China during the Han, Eastern Jin dynasty, Tang dynasty, and southern Song dynasty. Those Oa3 migrants displaced their O2 cousins that they left behind in southern China.



.
Kinh Dương Vương reigns over the Xích Quỷ confederacy that occupied the Red River Delta in present-day Northern Vietnam and *part of southeastern China*, starting the Hồng Bàng Dynasty.

People of Van lang was Mon/Khmer/Muong (Luo Yue) and Thai/Katay (Ouo Yue) speaking languages..and also called Jiao Zhi people.

*Vietnamese Kinh people became independent ethnic group from Muong/Tay people around 1,300 year ago.* So that Vietnmese is formed on basic words from Mon/Khmer language but Vietnamese vowels are all pronounced with an inherent tone influenced from Thai/Katay language. *Jiao Zhi people were Kinh people's direct ancestors.*

Kh"mu people, who speak Mon/Khmer language is living now in Laos.

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## Grand Historian

EastSea said:


> .
> Kinh Dương Vương reigns over the Xích Quỷ confederacy that occupied the Red River Delta in present-day Northern Vietnam and *part of southeastern China*, starting the Hồng Bàng Dynasty.
> 
> People of Van lang was Mon/Khmer/Muong (Luo Yue) and Thai/Katay (Ouo Yue) speaking languages..and also called Jiao Zhi people.
> 
> *Vietnamese Kinh people became independent ethnic group from Muong/Tay people around 1,300 year ago.* So that Vietnmese is basic words from Mon/Khmer language but Vietnamese vowels are all pronounced with an inherent tone influenced from Thai/Katay language.
> 
> Kh"mu people, who speak Mon/Khmer language is living now in Laos.


Sigh this is pointless,you have no proof of your Vietnamese myth yet you try to present it as historical fact.

A book written thousands of years later is hardly conclusive proof,show me research papers and Sinologists who agree with your claim.

For the last time the natives of Southern China never identified themselves with Vietnamese people,if your Hung King myth is true then why don't any other ethnicity have legends about him?

If you insist to keep on trolling then I'm afraid a moderator will intervene.

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## EastSea

Khmu people is part of Laotien people, Khmer people is living in Cambodia. They both are considered as our brothers and sisters. We don't care what Chinese metizos spread hatred against us. We shall done every thing to protectorate our blood friends.



Grand Historian said:


> Sigh this is pointless,you have no proof of your Vietnamese myth yet you try to present it as historical fact.
> 
> A book written thousands of years later is hardly conclusive proof,show me research papers and Sinologists who agree with your claim.
> 
> For the last time the natives of Southern China never identified themselves with Vietnamese people,if your Hung King myth is true then why don't any other ethnicity have legends about him?
> 
> If you insist to keep on trolling then I'm afraid a moderator will intervene.



Why ?

It is stating in our textual history book was written by our ancestor. We don't have right to deny it.

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## jkroo

Viet said:


> you are right, fear is the wrong word.
> 
> actually Vietnam wanted not only a goahead of Chinese emperor to the change of country name, but to a military campaign against the Kingdom of Siam.
> the Siamese had ermerged to a major threat for Vietnam as they controlled Laos and Cambodia, and sooner or later they would launch another attack to Vietnam.
> 
> China should stay neutral should it come a confrontation in the region. I understand 南越 is not 越南, for you, but for us, it is the same. as a result, Vietnam under the Nguyen expelled and defeated the Siamese and dominated the indochinese region and beyond. the glorious era came to an end when the French arrived.



Teach you another lesson:
Emperor Jiaqing confered the title on 阮福映 and gave the name 越南 to the land for historically 阮福映 rise from 越裳 and later got 安南 and geographically location at 百越之南 the south of Baiyue. Thats why 越南 has nothing to do with 南越. You people are really illogic.

China DO contribute positive to VNs independence.
China had promoted the VN civilisation progress during ancient times.

China aid VN to fight the Anti-French anti-jappan and anti-American war to support your independence business in the timeframe from Qing dynasty, ROC times to PRC.
Correct me if I am wrong.

Our culture has the specific of containment and harmony which you never learn.

Our people always listen what you say and observe what you do.

Show us how white your eyes are and keep playing jokes. There is No hatred to VN and the people, thats your delusions too.

Keep talking does not contribute a thing to coutrys progress. China has huge number people who can read and write English but there are only a little persons join the discussions.


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## yue10

Grand Historian said:


> Yue=/= Viet
> 
> Despite what EastSea says the Yue state of Goujian has nothing to do with the Yue of Vietnam.
> 
> I already stated that the there was no pan-Yue identity back then.
> 
> Not all Baiyue's are Vietnamese but Vietnamese are part of the Baiyue.
> 
> Prove that the Yue in Guangdong and Guangxi ever identified with the people living in Northern Vietnam.
> 
> Zhao Tuo was ethnically Chinese nothing you say changes this.
> 
> Yet Zhao Tuo groveled and was willing to be a Han vassal his willingness to cease his attack on Changsha state of Wu Rui shows his submission.
> 
> Nanyue governed itself,autonomy doesn't make it Vietnamese.
> 
> Bronze drums disappeared after the Zhao Tuo and his progeny ruled according to Keiji Imamura.


do you have proof Vietnamese are part of Baiyue?



> The termination of Dong Son is another controversial issue in Vietnamese archaeology. It is generally accepted that the Dong Son assemblages were replaced by Han assemblages after the Han invasion. Since data from the Han tombs in Guangzhou (CPAM 1991) have been published, Han style burials have become more easily recognizable and dateable. In the Early Historical period (post Dong Son), burials and artefacts changed drastically and citadels and large burial groups appeared, as a result of centralization and the introduction of Chinese political divisions. *However, as Imamura (1993) and Yoshikai (1997) have observed, Dong Son artifacts, including drums, continued to be used and adopted into Han-style surroundings*




LOL @ the VN foreign minister


> As a way to signify that this new domain covered both of these areas, the Nguyễn ruling elite chose to combine the character “Nam” from “An Nam” with the “Việt” in “Việt Thường” to create the new name, “Nam Việt” 南越.
> 
> After urging the Qing emperor to not approve usage of the name “Nam Việt,” Sun Yuting later noted in a memorial to the throne that in addition to the above meaning, “Việt Nam,” which can literally mean “South of the Việt/Yue,” was also a good name because it indicated that this domain was south of the area where the “Hundred Việt/Yue” (百越, Bách Việt/Baiyue) had once lived, that is, the large region stretching from Zhejiang province through Fujian, Guangdong and Guangxi provinces. This comment again demonstrated Sun Yuting’s concern with possible threats to the region under his jurisdiction, Guangxi province (_Qing shilu_, Jiaqing reign, 111/11b).


this why I asked about Viet Thuong ages ago but no one know about it


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## jkroo

For those under-educated and illiberal people to Chinese culture. Confucius and Yi Jing deserved to learn hard when you love to talk things about China. You will touch where Chinese culture originate from and help you comprehend Chinese patterns.


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## bolo

INDIC said:


> But I heard Tangs moved to the south and siniticized the natives and also intermarried with them, so they prefer calling themselves as Tang people since there weren't siniticized during Han Dynasty.



I also know the overseas Chinese also use the term Han Ren, or Han people, but the term is used interchangeably, but never heard any Chinese say they were descendants of Baiyue. In fact, never heard of that group until PDF.


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## yue10

jkroo said:


> Teach you another lesson:
> Emperor Jiaqing confered the title on 阮福映 and gave the name 越南 to the land for historically 阮福映 rise from 越裳 and later got 安南 and geographically location at 百越之南 the south of Baiyue. Thats why 越南 has nothing to do with 南越. You people are really illogic.
> 
> China DO contribute positive to VNs independence.
> China had promoted the VN civilisation progress during ancient times.
> 
> China aid VN to fight the Anti-French anti-jappan and anti-American war to support your independence business in the timeframe from Qing dynasty, ROC times to PRC.
> Correct me if I am wrong.
> 
> Our culture has the specific of containment and harmony which you never learn.
> 
> Our people always listen what you say and observe what you do.
> 
> Show us how white your eyes are and keep playing jokes. There is No hatred to VN and the people, thats your delusions too.
> 
> Keep talking does not contribute a thing to coutrys progress. China has huge number people who can read and write English but there are only a little persons join the discussions.


my Chinese amigo, at least give me rep if you are going to edit post and made yourself look smart, don't worry I am not intellectualist snobs like most member, just a superior human being with superior peasant mentality that will rule over brainless Annams


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## jkroo

yue10 said:


> my Chinese amigo, at least give me rep if you are going to edit post and made yourself look smart, don't worry I am not intellectualist snobs like most member, just a superior human being with superior peasant mentality that will rule over brainless Annams


Mobile devices issues


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## jkroo

@yue10
From your last post. You seems to act as an senior moderate or a wise man, oh thats a good step for you. You are just too early to confess that you are not a intelligent snobs and it seems irrational. You are too early to draw your conclusion on a person that superior, smart or not. Emotion is evil.

No offences to individual VN people and the country. If I hurt you for input words method and talking history stories so I apologize to you.

If I am a Chinese farmer also hurt you, I apologize. 

Hope you open your mind.


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## Viet

yue10 said:


> my Chinese amigo, at least give me rep if you are going to edit post and made yourself look smart, don't worry I am not intellectualist snobs like most member, just a *superior human being* with superior peasant mentality that will rule over brainless Annams


you are a low IQ idiot, as usual. why don´t you jump off the window and prove you are superior?


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## Viet

Wholegrain said:


> Again you are posting BS. the inhabitants of Guangdong and Guangxi were Tai. We even have Zhuang* Tai people* living in Guangxi and *northern Vietnam* NOW.


prove that during the nanyue period the Tai made up most of the population! this pic proves nothing.


Wholegrain said:


> This is Kinh people's home


what tells me this picture?

it just shows the region where the first Viets settled down in the red river delta before spreading to other regions. It is said and through archaeological excavations the Viets were in the first who began the development of wet rice cultivation . that was about about of 1,000 BC.

the period of kingdom nanyue existed much later which lasted from 204 BC to 111 BC.


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## EastSea

yue10 said:


> do you have proof Vietnamese are part of Baiyue?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LOL @ the VN foreign minister
> 
> this why I asked about Viet Thuong ages ago but no one know about it



You are typical stupid boy, troll and troll.

Vietnam belong to Dong Son culture, Dong Son drum belong to South East Asia people, not only Vietnam. That why Vietnam join to ASEAN.


Look at the map here: 1st century BC to 1st century AD. Dong Son Drum found also in Indonesia.










yue10 said:


> this why I asked about Viet Thuong ages ago but no one know about it



You can speak Vietnamese, read here, kid.

_Nhà nước Việt Thường Thị xuất hiện vào đầu thiên niên kỷ thứ II trước công nguyên. Sách Việt sử lược chép: Đến đời Thành Vương nhà Chu (1042 – 1021 TCN), Việt Thường Thị mới đem dâng con chim trĩ trắng. Như vậy Việt Thường thị xuất hiện sau Văn Lang của Hùng Vươngkhoảng 1800 năm.

Trong Việt Nam sử lược, tác giả Trần Trọng Kim viết: ... sử Tàu có chép rằng năm tân mão (1109 trước Tây lịch), đời vua Thành Vương nhà Chu, có nước Việt Thường, ở phía nam xứ Giao Chỉ sai sứ đem chim bạch trĩ sang cống, nhà Chu phải tìm người làm thông ngôn mới hiểu được tiếng, và ông Chu Công Đán lại chế ra xe chỉ nam để đem sứ Việt Thường về nước..._

_Sau đó, trong liên minh các bộ lạc Văn Lang, một trong 15 bộ cũng có tên là Việt Thường và là bộ quan trọng thứ hai của nước Văn Lang. Truyền thuyết nhắc lại rằng vùng Hồng Lĩnh là nơi Hùng Vương định đặt đô, mà Hồng Lĩnh là trung tâm của Việt Thường thị, sau là huyện Việt Thường tồn tại cho đến hết niên kỷ thứ nhất sau Công nguyên._

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## yue10

jkroo said:


> @yue10
> From your last post. You seems to act as an senior moderate or a wise man, oh thats a good step for you. You are just too early to confess that you are not a intelligent snobs and it seems irrational. You are too early to draw your conclusion on a person that superior, smart or not. Emotion is evil.
> 
> No offences to individual VN people and the country. If I hurt you for input words method and talking history stories so I apologize to you.
> 
> If I am a Chinese farmer also hurt you, I apologize.
> 
> Hope you open your mind.


sorry there my Chinese amigo, I don't understand your English good so don't know if you are speaking badly to me but I just joking about superiority, if you go on different forum you will always noticed these Annam said we defeated this we defeated that act like they are centre of the world and superior, when they speak about bullied from China but they are also bully of their neighbours, the hypocrisy is just too funny, I only said superior because it's dangerous when people with some knowledges thought they are smart and became as snob, I never claim as smart or knowledgeable but when these Annams spread too many lies their non human behaviour is too much

you seemed like reasonable people so I apologized for my behaviours


----------



## jkroo

@Viet

About rice planting culture, it has a history of almost 12000 years.

You know I am a farmer, you can search articles so that it will enrich your knowledge.


----------



## Viet

jkroo said:


> Teach you another lesson:
> Emperor Jiaqing confered the title on 阮福映 and gave the name 越南 to the land for historically 阮福映 rise from 越裳 and later got 安南 and geographically location at 百越之南 the south of Baiyue. Thats why 越南 has nothing to do with 南越. You people are really illogic.
> 
> China DO contribute positive to VNs independence.
> China had promoted the VN civilisation progress during ancient times.
> 
> China aid VN to fight the Anti-French anti-jappan and anti-American war to support your independence business in the timeframe from Qing dynasty, ROC times to PRC.
> Correct me if I am wrong.
> 
> Our culture has the specific of containment and harmony which you never learn.
> 
> Our people always listen what you say and observe what you do.
> 
> Show us how white your eyes are and keep playing jokes. There is No hatred to VN and the people, thats your delusions too.
> 
> Keep talking does not contribute a thing to coutrys progress. China has huge number people who can read and write English but there are only a little persons join the discussions.


can you elaborate a bit more what you mean with

*Our culture has the specific of containment and harmony which you never learn.
Our people always listen what you say and observe what you do.*

no doubt, China made a lot of good things and contributed positively to the development of Vietnam, including the supports you mention during the wars against the foreign invaders. however, you destroyed all of these again. worse, the bad things outweigh the good ones. it may be better for all of us, if we both agree to build a highrise wall along the entire Sino-Vietnam border and separate the countries permanently.

Vietnam future lies in SE Asia. Many of us are really tired of the Chinese.


----------



## yue10

EastSea said:


> You are typical stupid boy, troll and troll.
> 
> Vietnam belong to Dong Son culture, Dong Son drum belong to South East Asia people, not only Vietnam. That why Vietnam join to ASEAN.
> 
> 
> Look at the map here: 1st century BC to 1st century AD. Dong Son Drum found also in Indonesia.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can speak Vietnamese, read here, kid.
> 
> _Nhà nước Việt Thường Thị xuất hiện vào đầu thiên niên kỷ thứ II trước công nguyên. Sách Việt sử lược chép: Đến đời Thành Vương nhà Chu (1042 – 1021 TCN), Việt Thường Thị mới đem dâng con chim trĩ trắng. Như vậy Việt Thường thị xuất hiện sau Văn Lang của Hùng Vươngkhoảng 1800 năm.
> 
> Trong Việt Nam sử lược, tác giả Trần Trọng Kim viết: ... sử Tàu có chép rằng năm tân mão (1109 trước Tây lịch), đời vua Thành Vương nhà Chu, có nước Việt Thường, ở phía nam xứ Giao Chỉ sai sứ đem chim bạch trĩ sang cống, nhà Chu phải tìm người làm thông ngôn mới hiểu được tiếng, và ông Chu Công Đán lại chế ra xe chỉ nam để đem sứ Việt Thường về nước..._
> 
> _Sau đó, trong liên minh các bộ lạc Văn Lang, một trong 15 bộ cũng có tên là Việt Thường và là bộ quan trọng thứ hai của nước Văn Lang. Truyền thuyết nhắc lại rằng vùng Hồng Lĩnh là nơi Hùng Vương định đặt đô, mà Hồng Lĩnh là trung tâm của Việt Thường thị, sau là huyện Việt Thường tồn tại cho đến hết niên kỷ thứ nhất sau Công nguyên._


I never say Jiaozhi people is not your ancestor, I said they are not your true root understand? original Jiaozhi people is Tai not your Mon-Khmer root who came later and take over, then is start of Viet identity and culture

Dong Son have nothing to do with your Annams
In the second half of the twentieth century, the bronze drum became a symbol of “the antiquity of Việt nation.”
However, from the time that the people we refer to as the Việt started to record information about themselves until the present – a time period roughly equivalent to the thousand years of the second millennium AD – bronze drums were never part of the cultural lives of the Việt. Instead, it is people whom the Việt perceived to be different from themselves, and whom the Việt looked down upon, who employed bronze drums in their cultural lives.In any case, none of the details that Lê Tắc provided were his own. Instead, they can be found in earlier “Chinese” sources. Some people will argue that Lê Tắc probably wrote this way because he wrote this book when he was in “China,” *but the nineteenth-century geographical text, the Đại Nam nhất thống chí 大南一統志, likewise cited “Chinese” sources to explain what bronze drums were.*
*So prior to the twentieth century, bronze drums, which are now the symbol of “the antiquity of the Việt nation,” were basically unknown to the Việt.*


read here your language
This revised narrative challenges traditional concepts of the multi-millennial “survival” of the Vietnamese language,
*suggesting instead a “birth” of Vietnamese, significantly not in the depths of pre-Chinese history but during and immediately following Annam’s long centuries of membership within the Chinese imperial order.*
First, I argue that Annam witnessed a “language shift” among sectors of its elite population away from a local variety of Middle Chinese (spoken regionally), and towards the local, non-Chinese language of “Proto-Viet–Muong” (i.e. the immediate ancestor of the modern Vietnamese and Muong languages). This process of “language shift” radically transformed the grammar and vocabulary of Proto-Viet–Muong.
*Applied to turn-of-the-millennium Annam, this case suggests that a population of Annamese Middle Chinese speakers shifted to Proto-Viet–Muong,* thereby inducing a number of linguistic innovations that were subsequently imitated by the Proto-Viet–Muong community as a whole and thus “permanently established in the language”.
The arguments I have made here—the existence of a local dialect of Middle Chinese, its obsolescence in favour of Proto Viet–Muong, and the eventual emergence of a new language from among the hybridized dialects that followed—plainly challenge the notion of a multi-millennial “Vietnamese” identity. *They strongly imply that a recognizable culture for the Vietnamese, like their language, formed during the first few centuries of independent kingship,* rather than in a vague and distant, pre-Chinese era.


----------



## jkroo

yue10 said:


> sorry there my Chinese amigo, I don't understand your English good so don't know if you are speaking badly to me but I just joking about superiority, if you go on different forum you will always noticed these Annam said we defeated this we defeated that act like they are centre of the world and superior, when they speak about bullied from China but they are also bully of their neighbours, the hypocrisy is just too funny, I only said superior because it's dangerous when people with some knowledges thought they are smart and became as snob, I never claim as smart or knowledgeable but when these Annams spread too many lies their non human behaviour is too much
> 
> you seemed like reasonable people so I apologized for my behaviours



Got it with thanks.

I dont know where you are from for I use a mobile version and see no flags.

They seemed to be annoied and bullying.

I dont know the story but I know they do fabricate somthing to make them proud. So I point out they have delusions though they are free to do so.

Never mind friend. Though they claimed too much things and show their strength weakness exploid.

I am good at chinglish, right?

Just take it easy.


----------



## Viet

jkroo said:


> @Viet
> 
> About *rice planting culture*, it has a history of almost 12000 years.
> 
> You know I am a farmer, you can search articles so that it will enrich your knowledge.


I talked of wet rice cultivation in red river delta 1,000 bc, while you...
okay, as you are a farmer pls enrich my knowledge of rice planting culture 12,000 years ago. I am always ready to learn.



yue10 said:


> I never say Jiaozhi people is not your ancestor, I said they are not your true root understand? original Jiaozhi people is Tai not your Mon-Khmer root who came later and take over, then is start of Viet identity and culture
> 
> Dong Son have nothing to do with your Annams
> In the second half of the twentieth century, the bronze drum became a symbol of “the antiquity of Việt nation.”
> However, from the time that the people we refer to as the Việt started to record information about themselves until the present – a time period roughly equivalent to the thousand years of the second millennium AD – bronze drums were never part of the cultural lives of the Việt. Instead, it is people whom the Việt perceived to be different from themselves, and whom the Việt looked down upon, who employed bronze drums in their cultural lives.In any case, none of the details that Lê Tắc provided were his own. Instead, they can be found in earlier “Chinese” sources. Some people will argue that Lê Tắc probably wrote this way because he wrote this book when he was in “China,” *but the nineteenth-century geographical text, the Đại Nam nhất thống chí 大南一統志, likewise cited “Chinese” sources to explain what bronze drums were.
> So prior to the twentieth century, bronze drums, which are now the symbol of “the antiquity of the Việt nation,” were basically unknown to the Việt.*
> 
> 
> read here your language
> This revised narrative challenges traditional concepts of the multi-millennial “survival” of the Vietnamese language,
> *suggesting instead a “birth” of Vietnamese, significantly not in the depths of pre-Chinese history but during and immediately following Annam’s long centuries of membership within the Chinese imperial order.*
> First, I argue that Annam witnessed a “language shift” among sectors of its elite population away from a local variety of Middle Chinese (spoken regionally), and towards the local, non-Chinese language of “Proto-Viet–Muong” (i.e. the immediate ancestor of the modern Vietnamese and Muong languages). This process of “language shift” radically transformed the grammar and vocabulary of Proto-Viet–Muong.
> *Applied to turn-of-the-millennium Annam, this case suggests that a population of Annamese Middle Chinese speakers shifted to Proto-Viet–Muong,* thereby inducing a number of linguistic innovations that were subsequently imitated by the Proto-Viet–Muong community as a whole and thus “permanently established in the language”.
> The arguments I have made here—the existence of a local dialect of Middle Chinese, its obsolescence in favour of Proto Viet–Muong, and the eventual emergence of a new language from among the hybridized dialects that followed—plainly challenge the notion of a multi-millennial “Vietnamese” identity. *They strongly imply that a recognizable culture for the Vietnamese, like their language, formed during the first few centuries of independent kingship,* rather than in a vague and distant, pre-Chinese era.


don´t forget to jump off the building and prove your superiority


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## jkroo

Viet said:


> I talked of wet rice cultivation in red river delta 1,000 bc, while you...
> okay, as you are a farmer pls enrich my knowledge of rice planting culture 12,000 years ago. I am always ready to learn.


Its not bad, right? 



Viet said:


> can you elaborate a bit more what you mean with
> 
> *Our culture has the specific of containment and harmony which you never learn.
> Our people always listen what you say and observe what you do.*
> 
> no doubt, China made a lot of good things and contributed positively to the development of Vietnam, including the supports you mention during the wars against the foreign invaders. however, you destroyed all of these again. worse, the bad things outweigh the good ones. it may be better for all of us, if we both agree to build a highrise wall along the entire Sino-Vietnam border and separate the countries permanently.
> 
> Vietnam future lies in SE Asia. Many of us are really tired of the Chinese.


Look, you are so naive. You cant put your head in the sands. Welcome to 21st century. If you tired then have some rest. Its a nature. Dont hurry to jump out to defend something. Try hard to live happy.


----------



## EastSea

yue10 said:


> I never say Jiaozhi people is not your ancestor, I said they are not your true root understand? original Jiaozhi people is Tai not your Mon-Khmer root who came later and take over, then is start of Viet identity and culture
> 
> Dong Son have nothing to do with your Annams
> In the second half of the twentieth century, the bronze drum became a symbol of “the antiquity of Việt nation.”
> However, from the time that the people we refer to as the Việt started to record information about themselves until the present – a time period roughly equivalent to the thousand years of the second millennium AD – bronze drums were never part of the cultural lives of the Việt. Instead, it is people whom the Việt perceived to be different from themselves, and whom the Việt looked down upon, who employed bronze drums in their cultural lives.In any case, none of the details that Lê Tắc provided were his own. Instead, they can be found in earlier “Chinese” sources. Some people will argue that Lê Tắc probably wrote this way because he wrote this book when he was in “China,” *but the nineteenth-century geographical text, the Đại Nam nhất thống chí 大南一統志, likewise cited “Chinese” sources to explain what bronze drums were.
> So prior to the twentieth century, bronze drums, which are now the symbol of “the antiquity of the Việt nation,” were basically unknown to the Việt.*
> 
> 
> read here your language
> This revised narrative challenges traditional concepts of the multi-millennial “survival” of the Vietnamese language,
> *suggesting instead a “birth” of Vietnamese, significantly not in the depths of pre-Chinese history but during and immediately following Annam’s long centuries of membership within the Chinese imperial order.*
> First, I argue that Annam witnessed a “language shift” among sectors of its elite population away from a local variety of Middle Chinese (spoken regionally), and towards the local, non-Chinese language of “Proto-Viet–Muong” (i.e. the immediate ancestor of the modern Vietnamese and Muong languages). This process of “language shift” radically transformed the grammar and vocabulary of Proto-Viet–Muong.
> *Applied to turn-of-the-millennium Annam, this case suggests that a population of Annamese Middle Chinese speakers shifted to Proto-Viet–Muong,* thereby inducing a number of linguistic innovations that were subsequently imitated by the Proto-Viet–Muong community as a whole and thus “permanently established in the language”.
> The arguments I have made here—the existence of a local dialect of Middle Chinese, its obsolescence in favour of Proto Viet–Muong, and the eventual emergence of a new language from among the hybridized dialects that followed—plainly challenge the notion of a multi-millennial “Vietnamese” identity. *They strongly imply that a recognizable culture for the Vietnamese, like their language, formed during the first few centuries of independent kingship,* rather than in a vague and distant, pre-Chinese era.



Dong Son culture is not related only to bronze Drum, it is a symbol of development of technology in ancient time.

Read my post above again: It could related to people were living in South East Asia.

In Vietnamese, we call such music instruments: Cồng, Chiêng, Trống. Such music instruments were made from Bronze.

reading an entry in Lê Tắc’s fourteenth-century _Brief Treatise on An Nam_ (_An Nam chí lược_) in Section " Biên cảnh phục dịch" translated in to Enghlish: "Frontier Services" in the Chapter number 1.

Le tac has been described that (in the year 1,303 ACE) for the people in Vietnam, called the “Lạo Tử” (獠子) people who were living in border area of Vietnam as follow :

_“They are fond of warring with enemies and they beat bronze drums. They value big ones. When a drum is first completed, they place it in a courtyard with wine and invite their fellow kind. Those who come fill [the courtyard] to the gates. The daughter of the notable takes a gold or silver hairpin and strikes the drum, after which she leaves it with the owner.”_

Note that Vietnamese/Kinh people ís became separate ethnic from Mon/Muong people from 1,300 year ago.

Today in Vietnam, Muong people is use to bronze drum in his traditional festivals. (true Bronze drum "Trống Đồng" is expensive).

Reactions: Like Like:
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## yue10

jkroo said:


> Got it with thanks.
> 
> I dont know where you are from for I use a mobile version and see no flags.
> 
> They seemed to be annoied and bullying.
> 
> I dont know the story but I know they do fabricate somthing to make them proud. So I point out they have delusions though they are free to do so.
> 
> Never mind friend. Though they claimed too much things and show their strength weakness exploid.
> 
> I am good at chinglish, right?
> 
> Just take it easy.


yes, yes, like I said I apologised for my uncivilised behaviours, sometimes the Annam blood is too strong for me to suppressed, delusions is perfect word for their race

I liked farmer people a lot of them don't got elitist mentality, I grew up on farm and maybe in the future also became farmer, your Chinglish good no need to worry


EastSea said:


> Dong Son culture is not related only to bronze Drum, it is a symbol of development of technology in ancient time.
> 
> Read my post above again: It could related to people were living in South East Asia.
> 
> In Vietnamese, we call such music instruments: Cồng, Chiêng, Trống. Such music instruments were made from Bronze.
> 
> reading an entry in Lê Tắc’s fourteenth-century _Brief Treatise on An Nam_ (_An Nam chí lược_) in Section " Biên cảnh phục dịch" translated in to Enghlish: "Frontier Services" in the Chapter number 1.
> 
> Le tac has been described that (in 1,303 year ago) for the people in Vietnam, called the “Lạo Tử” (獠子) people who were living in border area of Vietnam as follow :
> 
> _“They are fond of warring with enemies and they beat bronze drums. They value big ones. When a drum is first completed, they place it in a courtyard with wine and invite their fellow kind. Those who come fill [the courtyard] to the gates. The daughter of the notable takes a gold or silver hairpin and strikes the drum, after which she leaves it with the owner.”_
> 
> Note that Vietnamese/Kinh people ís became separate ethnic from Mon/Muong people from 1,300 year ago.
> 
> Today in Vietnam, Muong people is use to bronze drum in his traditional festivals. (true Bronze drum is expensive).


Dong Son is just bronze culture, the drum is the height and symbolic of the culture so how can belong to you when you got no idea about it? the Muong is heavily influenced by Tai cultures, I already speak the dude Rejoice about their name came from Tai people Muang, ask him

look here Zhuang people
Guangxi Zhaung Autonomous Region is honored as “the hometown of bronze drum”, which is the traditional cultural relic of Zhuang ethnic group. Bronze drum was originally used as ritual implement and musical instrument, and later on was developed into a symbol of power. Bronze drum is drawn in the patterns of sun like, feather-shaped person, aigrette, water wave, circles and elephant-eye lines as well as the patterns of frogs and teals, etc. The Zhuang people regard frog as the “son of the thunder king in the heaven” and there was a legend of “the frog up in the palace”. *They have the “Frog Festival”. The frogs decorated on the surface of Bronze drum are the Zhuang’s symbol of totem and worship*.

the spread of the drum just mean trade or possibly dispersion of Dong Son people after arrival of Chinese

why your Annams kept claim the drum belonged to you, what this girl talk about?
*The Ngọc Lũ Drum, *even dirt-logged and oxidized as it had been, was a thing of obvious beauty and value, and the men who rediscovered it knew that their ancestors had hidden it underground to protect it from being systematically destroyed. The Great Bronze Melting during the occupation of Ma is very well-documented. The men knew that this was a part of their ancient heritage, kept safe for them, under the ground where it could be hidden from plunderers and the ravages of time.
Đông Sơn Drums | Thoughts of a Taoist Babe
LOL, now suddenly 'the men knew that this was a part of their ancient heritage'


----------



## Viet

EastSea said:


> Dong Son culture is not related only to bronze Drum, it is a symbol of development of technology in ancient time.
> 
> Read my post above again: It could related to people were living in South East Asia.
> 
> In Vietnamese, we call such music instruments: Cồng, Chiêng, Trống. Such music instruments were made from Bronze.
> 
> reading an entry in Lê Tắc’s fourteenth-century _Brief Treatise on An Nam_ (_An Nam chí lược_) in Section " Biên cảnh phục dịch" translated in to Enghlish: "Frontier Services" in the Chapter number 1.
> 
> Le tac has been described that (in the year 1,303 ACE) for the people in Vietnam, called the “Lạo Tử” (獠子) people who were living in border area of Vietnam as follow :
> 
> _“They are fond of warring with enemies and they beat bronze drums. They value big ones. When a drum is first completed, they place it in a courtyard with wine and invite their fellow kind. Those who come fill [the courtyard] to the gates. The daughter of the notable takes a gold or silver hairpin and strikes the drum, after which she leaves it with the owner.”_
> 
> Note that Vietnamese/Kinh people ís became separate ethnic from Mon/Muong people from 1,300 year ago.
> 
> Today in Vietnam, Muong people is use to bronze drum in his traditional festivals. (true Bronze drum "Trống Đồng" is expensive).


yue10 is a fcking idiot. he is nothing more than a clown. Waiting to see he jumps off the window to prove his superiority.



yue10 said:


> yes, yes, like I said I apologised for my uncivilised behaviours, sometimes the Annam blood is too strong for me to suppressed, delusions is perfect word for their race
> 
> I liked farmer people a lot of them don't got elitist mentality, I grew up on farm and maybe in the future also became farmer, your Chinglish good no need to worry
> 
> Dong Son is just bronze culture, the drum is the height and symbolic of the culture so how can belong to you when you got no idea about it? the Muong is heavily influenced by Tai cultures, I already speak the dude Rejoice about their name came from Tai people Muang, ask him
> 
> look here Zhuang people
> Guangxi Zhaung Autonomous Region is honored as “the hometown of bronze drum”, which is the traditional cultural relic of Zhuang ethnic group. Bronze drum was originally used as ritual implement and musical instrument, and later on was developed into a symbol of power. Bronze drum is drawn in the patterns of sun like, feather-shaped person, aigrette, water wave, circles and elephant-eye lines as well as the patterns of frogs and teals, etc. The Zhuang people regard frog as the “son of the thunder king in the heaven” and there was a legend of “the frog up in the palace”. *They have the “Frog Festival”. The frogs decorated on the surface of Bronze drum are the Zhuang’s symbol of totem and worship*.
> 
> the spread of the drum just mean trade or possibly dispersion of Dong Son people after arrival of Chinese
> 
> why your Annams kept claim the drum belonged to you, what this girl talk about?
> *The Ngọc Lũ Drum, *even dirt-logged and oxidized as it had been, was a thing of obvious beauty and value, and the men who rediscovered it knew that their ancestors had hidden it underground to protect it from being systematically destroyed. The Great Bronze Melting during the occupation of Ma is very well-documented. The men knew that this was a part of their ancient heritage, kept safe for them, under the ground where it could be hidden from plunderers and the ravages of time.
> Đông Sơn Drums | Thoughts of a Taoist Babe
> LOL, now suddenly 'the men knew that this was a part of their ancient heritage'


end your useless life, low iq idiot

Reactions: Like Like:
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## EastSea

yue10 said:


> yes, yes, like I said I apologised for my uncivilised behaviours, sometimes the Annam blood is too strong for me to suppressed, delusions is perfect word for their race
> 
> I liked farmer people a lot of them don't got elitist mentality, I grew up on farm and maybe in the future also became farmer, your Chinglish good no need to worry
> 
> Dong Son is just bronze culture, the drum is the height and symbolic of the culture so how can belong to you when you got no idea about it? the Muong is heavily influenced by Tai cultures, I already speak the dude Rejoice about their name came from Tai people Muang, ask him
> 
> look here Zhuang people
> Guangxi Zhaung Autonomous Region is honored as “the hometown of bronze drum”, which is the traditional cultural relic of Zhuang ethnic group. Bronze drum was originally used as ritual implement and musical instrument, and later on was developed into a symbol of power. Bronze drum is drawn in the patterns of sun like, feather-shaped person, aigrette, water wave, circles and elephant-eye lines as well as the patterns of frogs and teals, etc. The Zhuang people regard frog as the “son of the thunder king in the heaven” and there was a legend of “the frog up in the palace”. *They have the “Frog Festival”. The frogs decorated on the surface of Bronze drum are the Zhuang’s symbol of totem and worship*.
> 
> the spread of the drum just mean trade or possibly dispersion of Dong Son people after arrival of Chinese
> 
> why your Annams kept claim the drum belonged to you, what this girl talk about?
> *The Ngọc Lũ Drum, *even dirt-logged and oxidized as it had been, was a thing of obvious beauty and value, and the men who rediscovered it knew that their ancestors had hidden it underground to protect it from being systematically destroyed. The Great Bronze Melting during the occupation of Ma is very well-documented. The men knew that this was a part of their ancient heritage, kept safe for them, under the ground where it could be hidden from plunderers and the ravages of time.
> Đông Sơn Drums | Thoughts of a Taoist Babe
> LOL, now suddenly 'the men knew that this was a part of their ancient heritage'



You are idiot. You don't know Vietnamese proverb:

*"Con cóc là cậu ông trời.
Ai mà đánh nó thì trời đánh cho".

In English:

"The frog is a uncle of God,
if you hurt him, God shall punish you."*


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## yue10

EastSea said:


> You are idiot. You don't know Vietnamese proverb:
> 
> *"Con cóc là cậu ông trời.
> Ai mà đánh nó thì trời đánh cho".*


that's TOAD not frog

don't made edit, you know coc mean toad and ech mean frog


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## EastSea

yue10 said:


> that's TOAD not frog
> 
> don't made edit, you know coc mean toad and ech mean frog



The both animal with the same appearance for decoration, kid.

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## yue10

EastSea said:


> The both animal with the same appearance for decoration, kid.


now you just start lied again

look here
In addition to the bird motifs, there are also small three-dimentional animals on the face of some Dong Son (Shizhaishan) drums and other types of drums which archaeologists have argued are either frogs or toads (see Figure 5). Chinese scholars argued that they were frogs and explained them as decorations without special meaning,[47] or something related to the ceremony of rain-seeking, or the frog-worshipping custom of the ancient Yue people of southern China, a group believed to be related to the ancient Viet people.[48] *Edward Schafer agreed that the animals were frogs, "for the drum embodied a frog spirit---that is a spirit of water and rain---and its voice was the booming rumble of the bullfrog."* He retold a story of the Tang period recorded in a Chinese source to show that the drum could even take the form of a living frog. According to the story, a frog pursued by a person leaped into a hole, which turned out to be the grave of a Man (barbarian) chieftain containing a bronze drum with a rich green patina, covered with batrachian figures. The bronze drum was believed to be the reincarnation of the frog.[49] *Vietnamese scholars initially agreed that the animals were frogs in the 1970s,[50] but later interpreted them as toads because *"a widely known popular saying in Vietnam calls the toad 'the uncle of the heavenly god' and maintains that rain will inevitably fall when the toad raises his head and croaks.

LOL @ Annams professors first agreed then just made up lies as they go along


----------



## EastSea

Ngoc Lũ Bronze Drum found in Vietnam. There is no frogs

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## Viet

yue10 said:


> that's TOAD not frog
> 
> don't made edit, you know coc mean toad and ech mean frog


ha ha ha... I see you know a bit of Vietnamese. What are you: ếch or cóc?
I guess the latter. lol
you are a Khmer, right?

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## yue10

it's doesn't matter if don't got frog, Annams never claim drum as theirs until recently to make themselves look more advanced in ancient times



Viet said:


> ha ha ha... I see you know a bit of Vietnamese. What are you: ếch or cóc?
> I guess the latter. lol
> you are a Khmer, right?


oh, so you calm down now?
I said already many times my parents is the Southern Viet, I never say anything good for Khmers but your Annams continually accused me as Khmer


----------



## EastSea

yue10 said:


> it's doesn't matter if don't got frog, Annams never claim drum as theirs until recently to make themselves look more advanced in ancient times
> 
> 
> oh, so you calm down now?
> I said already many times my parents is the Southern Viet, I never say anything good for Khmers but your Annams continually accused me as Khmer



*Ngọc Lũ I* là một trong những chiếc trống đồng Đông Sơn có kích thước to lớn, hình dáng cổ kính, tập trung hoa văn phong phú nhất, hiện được tàng trữ tại Bảo tàng Lịch sử Việt Nam.

Read more here, kid. Photos is from here.

Ngọc Lũ I – Wikipedia tiếng Việt


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## Viet

yue10 said:


> oh, so you calm down now?
> I said already many times my parents is the Southern Viet, I never say anything good for Khmers but your *Annams* continually accused me as Khmer


no
if you are a Viet (I doubt it) then you should know the Viets hate the terms Annam or Annamese as it remembers to the periods of Chinese and French occupation. your parents failed having educated you. slap yourself hard in your face, idiot khmer!

Reactions: Like Like:
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## yue10

EastSea said:


> *Ngọc Lũ I* là một trong những chiếc trống đồng Đông Sơn có kích thước to lớn, hình dáng cổ kính, tập trung hoa văn phong phú nhất, hiện được tàng trữ tại Bảo tàng Lịch sử Việt Nam.
> 
> Read more here, kid. Photos is from here.
> 
> Ngọc Lũ I – Wikipedia tiếng Việt


I copy paste
Annams never claim drum as theirs until recently to make themselves look more advanced in ancient times (as in modern era)


Viet said:


> no
> if you are a Viet (I doubt it) then you should know the Viets hate the terms Annam or Annamese as it remembers to the periods of Chinese and French occupation. your parents failed having educated you. slap yourself hard in your face, idiot khmer!


there you go again with your abusive mentality, I grew up on farm, I only attend Sunday school learn Viet for a little over a year, no one teach me nothing about history, 6 month ago I don't know nothing history until I start noticing on different forum your Annams kept speaking history everyday and also genetic so I go to learn little bit and realise you spread too many lies, I didn't hate your race but just tried to stop you lying so much

well, no duh Annam is derogatory but I loved to annoyed your Annams got wrong and murderous mentality

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Viet

yue10 said:


> I copy paste
> Annams never claim drum as theirs until recently to make themselves look more advanced in ancient times (as in modern era)
> 
> there you go again with your abusive mentality, I grew up on farm, I only attend Sunday school learn Viet for a little over a year, no one teach me nothing about history, 6 month ago I don't know nothing history until I start noticing on different *forum* your Annams kept speaking history everyday and also genetic so I go to learn little bit and realise you spread too many lies, I didn't hate your race but just tried to stop you lying so much
> 
> well, no duh Annam is derogatory but I loved to annoyed your Annams got wrong and murderous mentality


just keep promoting your stupidity, khmer boy...so 6 months ago you knew nothing about history, and now you know everything. on what forums did you learn history?


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## bolo

EastSea said:


> You are idiot. You don't know Vietnamese proverb:
> 
> *"Con cóc là cậu ông trời.
> Ai mà đánh nó thì trời đánh cho".
> 
> In English:
> 
> "The frog is a uncle of God,
> if you hurt him, God shall punish you."*


"God ain't real, get over it." --quote from logical people

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Grand Historian

EastSea said:


> Why ?
> 
> It is stating in our textual history book was written by our ancestor. We don't have right to deny it.


The only leg you're standing on is Vietnamese texts written thousands of years after the events.

I can recognize untrustworthy sources when I see them especially if they are ingrained in myth and legends.


I already asked you these questions and ever single time you ignore them.

1.List a ancient Chinese text that mentions Xich Quy,Van Lang or the Hung kings.

2.Name some minority or Southern Han Chinese legends about Xich Quy,Van Lang or the Hung king.

3.Show archaeological evidence that Xich Quy,Van Lang or the Hung Kings exists.

4.Show Sinologists,Western academics and reserach papers that agree with your claims.



yue10 said:


> do you have proof Vietnamese are part of Baiyue?


Other than the Baipu the non Sinicized natives of Southern China were Baiyue,Luoyue and Ouyue who the Vietnamese which the kingdom of AuLac was supposedly a fusion of, are both considered part of the Baiyue.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## EastSea

yue10 said:


> Edward Schafer agreed that the animals were frogs, "for the drum embodied a frog spirit---that is a spirit of water and rain---and its voice was the booming rumble of the bullfrog." He retold a story of the Tang period recorded in a Chinese source to show that the drum could even take the form of a living frog. According to the story, a frog pursued by a person leaped into a hole, which turned out to be the grave of a Man (barbarian) chieftain containing a bronze drum with a rich green patina, covered with batrachian figures. The bronze drum was believed to be the reincarnation of the frog.[49] Vietnamese scholars initially agreed that the animals were frogs in the 1970s,[50] but later interpreted them as toads because "a widely known popular saying in Vietnam calls the toad 'the uncle of the heavenly god' and maintains that rain will inevitably fall when the toad raises his head and croaks.



Edward Schafer was wrong.

Could you know this is toad or frog ?







look at the tradition painting here in Vietnam.





and what related to* totem and worship is the story of Gold Toad.

Thiềm Thừ –*
蟾蜍
*Cóc Tài lộc *
_Theo truyền thuyết của người Hoa, thì Thiềm Thừ vốn là yêu tinh, được tiên ông Lưu Hải thu phục, theo Tiên ông Lưu Hải để tu hành nên không làm hại nhân gian như trước, mà ngược lại dùng phép thuật của mình đi khắp nhân gian để nhả tiền giúp đỡ mọi người, để thể hiện sự phục thiện, sự cải tà quy chính với tiên ông Lưu Hải. Vì vậy Thiềm Thừ được người Hoa trân trọng và trở thành một trong những con vật linh thiêng trong phong thủy về tài lộc và yên lành.




Read more. Thiềm thừ tài lộc đồng nguyên chất Đồ phong thủy, cóc, cóc tài lộc, cóc ngậm tiền, cóc vàng, cóc đồng, cóc phong thủy, thiềm thừ, thiền thừ, vật phẩm phong thủy bằng đồng. | Thủ công mỹ nghệ
_

don't forget that I stated in my early posts that Dong Son bronze drums belong to South East Asian people, including Minorities are living to day in Southern China.


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## EastSea

Grand Historian said:


> The only leg you're standing on is Vietnamese texts written thousands of years after the events.
> 
> I can recognize untrustworthy sources when I see them especially if they are ingrained in myth and legends.
> 
> 
> I already asked you these questions and ever single time you ignore them.
> 
> 1.List a ancient Chinese text that mentions Xich Quy,Van Lang or the Hung kings.
> 
> 2.Name some minority or Southern Han Chinese legends about Xich Quy,Van Lang or the Hung king.
> 
> 3.Show archaeological evidence that Xich Quy,Van Lang or the Hung Kings exists.
> 
> 4.Show Sinologists,Western academics and reserach papers that agree with your claims.
> 
> 
> Other than the Baipu the non Sinicized natives of Southern China were Baiyue,Luoyue and Ouyue who the Vietnamese which the kingdom of AuLac was supposedly a fusion of, are both considered part of the Baiyue.



It is boring to discuss with you, who are WuYue and MinYue man in native, but you deny your true identity belong to Bai Yue. Very sad.


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## Grand Historian

EastSea said:


> It is boring to discuss with you, who are WuYue and MinYue man in native, but you deny your true identity belong to Bai Yue. Very sad.


What's very sad is your intellectual dishonesty,as usual you attempt to shift the subject to avoid any questions.

Repeating the same lie over and over again doesn't make it true.

You are nothing more than a fraud with an ax to grind,trying to desperately distort the origins of Southern Han Chinese so you can claim that you ruled us.

I feel sorry for you,since ancient Vietnam was not a juggernaut you attempt to inflate its historical significance and downplay Chinese influence.

I already showed you more than enough proof that Southern Han Chinese are not solely descendants of the Baiyue but you ignored them.

I'll just repeat what I stated before.

A cursory glance at the Shiji chapter 114 東越列傳.

於是天子曰東越狹多阻，閩越悍，數反覆，詔軍吏皆將其民徙處江淮閒。東越地遂虛。

The son of heaven said Eastern Yue is narrow and hard to traverse,furthermore Min Yue is full of fierce,disloyal people.

The emperor therefore issued a decree where the army would settle the native people to in the lands between the Chang Jiang and Huai rivers,thus Eastern Yue became a barren land.


So how could I be related to a group of people that have been forcibly settled out of Fujian?

I have posted portions of 中國人口史,which deals with the minority population.

During Western Han the total number of minorities only numbered 3 million(and no,they are not all Baiyue this includes ethnicties located in the NorthEast,North and Western regions of modern day China) as opposed to 60 million average for the Han Chinese.

During Eastern Han the Shanyue remnants of Minyue only numbered 200,000-300,000.(however this also includes the Han that lived amongst the Shanyue so the real number should be lower)

While the Man(蠻) population of Changsha,,Nanjun,Jiangxia etc had a population of several 100,000s.

I find it quite preposterous that a Vietnamese can decide whether Southern Han Chinese are Baiyue or Han,rather the modern day Southern Han Chinese identify with Han and practice Han customs.


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## EastSea

Grand Historian said:


> What's very sad is your intellectual dishonesty,as usual you attempt to shift the subject to avoid any questions.
> 
> Repeating the same lie over and over again doesn't make it true.
> 
> You are nothing more than a fraud with an ax to grind,trying to desperately distort the origins of Southern Han Chinese so you can claim that you ruled us.
> 
> I feel sorry for you,since ancient Vietnam was not a juggernaut you attempt to inflate its historical significance and downplay Chinese influence.
> 
> I already showed you more than enough proof that Southern Han Chinese are not solely descendants of the Baiyue but you ignored them.
> 
> I'll just repeat what I stated before.
> 
> A cursory glance at the Shiji chapter 114 東越列傳.
> 
> 於是天子曰東越狹多阻，閩越悍，數反覆，詔軍吏皆將其民徙處江淮閒。東越地遂虛。
> 
> The son of heaven said Eastern Yue is narrow and hard to traverse,furthermore Min Yue is full of fierce,disloyal people.
> 
> The emperor therefore issued a decree where the army would settle the native people to in the lands between the Chang Jiang and Huai rivers,thus Eastern Yue became a barren land.
> 
> 
> So how could I be related to a group of people that have been forcibly settled out of Fujian?
> 
> I have posted portions of 中國人口史,which deals with the minority population.
> 
> During Western Han the total number of minorities only numbered 3 million(and no,they are not all Baiyue this includes ethnicties located in the NorthEast,North and Western regions of modern day China) as opposed to 60 million average for the Han Chinese.
> 
> During Eastern Han the Shanyue remnants of Minyue only numbered 200,000-300,000.(however this also includes the Han that lived amongst the Shanyue so the real number should be lower)
> 
> While the Man(蠻) population of Changsha,,Nanjun,Jiangxia etc had a population of several 100,000s.
> 
> I find it quite preposterous that a Vietnamese can decide whether Southern Han Chinese are Baiyue or Han,rather the modern day Southern Han Chinese identify with Han and practice Han customs.



Pls to read the article I posted here under, and think more about the differences of concept nationality and ethnicity of Chinese people.


*Migration and Ethnicity in Chinese History: Hakkas, Pengmin, and Their Neighbors. 

By Leong Sow-Theng*. Edited by Tim Wright. Stanford, Calif.: Stanford University Press, 1997. Pp. xix + 234. $45 (cloth).

_Ethnic identity is forged not just by psychology, but by material forces. China's powerfully unified ethnic identity is famous: Han Chinese descendants of the people of the Yellow River Plain, unified by the Emperor Qin Shi over two thousand years ago. Leong Sow-Theng's beautifully detailed posthumous volume Migration and Ethnicity in Chinese History examines how migration shaped the identity of the Hakka people. His perspective reveals strongly contested and divergent local ethnic identities, languages, and cultures, each modeled in contact and conflict with other local peoples. The Hakkas belong to China's ethnic Han Chinese majority, 94% of the population. (The fifty-six officially recognized national minorities, including ethnic Koreans, Tibetans, Mongols, and Miao, are 6%.) The Hakkas, just 3% of China's population, are the smallest of the seven major Han Chinese subgroups, each with its own local culture and dialect, as different as English from German. Most northerners belong to the native Mandarin-speaking 70%. The other groups are the Cantonese, the Wu speakers (from around Shanghai), the Min (from Fujian and Taiwan), the Xiang (Hunan), and the Gan (Jiangxi Province). The Hakkas, the only subgroup without their own province, live among the mountaintops of Guangdong, Fujian, Taiwan, Jiangxi, and Sichuan. Yet Hakkas gained so much political power that they include disproportionate numbers of the scholarly, military, and political elites, as well as Deng Xiaoping. In 1984 Hakkas formed 50% of China's most powerful political entity, the Standing Committee of the Politburo._

_Until very recently China's ideology of national unity, and horror of civil war, prevented public discussion of the ethnic Han subgroups. Hakkas had long been poor and stigmatized, late migrants to south China. Over the last three centuries millions died in wars between the Hakkas and their Cantonese and Fujianese neighbors. Leong's carefully honed analysis examines migration and contact in the construction of Hakka identity. The Hakkas' own creation legend lauds them as an ancient people, upholders of pure northern Chinese language and tradition. Hakkas, the legend goes, are descendants of Shandong and Henan natives who patriotically migrated south during the Mongol invasions 600 years ago. Hakkas pride themselves on scholarship, thrift, and hard work, and on their independent women who rejected foot-binding and worked in the fields alongside men. They also pride themselves on patriotism, counting as their own China's first president, Sun Yat-sen (though this is disputed), as well as Taiwan president Lee Teng-hui and Singapore strongman Lee Kwan Yew._

_Yet non-Hakkas, especially Cantonese and Fujian Min, have long denigrated the Hakkas as hillbilly "shack-people" (the pengmin of Leong's title). The very word Hakka is a Cantonese slur meaning "guest people"--that is, people who are supposed to go home. Poorer than southerners, later migrants forced to settle the worst mountain land, the Hakkas are stereotyped as stingy, clannish, disruptive outsiders, who work their women like animals, rather than sequestering them at home, according to the now defunct mainstream ideal. All southern Chinese have intermarried extensively with indigenous people. But the most contentious charge holds that the Hakkas are "not even Han Chinese," but rather a non-Han minority, the She, an ethnic Miao subgroup. Hakkas objected to particularly "barbarous" or "aborigine" labels well into the twentieth century._

_Leong, himself of Hakka ancestry, elucidates how the Hakkas gradually distinguished themselves from other "shack-people," forging a self-consciously separate language and identity only in the past 300 years. Public pride emerges only in the twentieth century. Leong calmly demonstrates how the factual record disputes crucial features of the Hakka creation myth. Far from being ancient northern scholars and nobility, patriotic preservers of pure northern speech, the record shows the Hakka ancestors as very recent arrivals, very poor, uneducated, itinerant workers. Hakkas adopted old southern Chinese speech, which separated into a self-recognized Hakka dialect only within the last few..._

_Preview of first page_


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## yue10

Grand Historian said:


> The only leg you're standing on is Vietnamese texts written thousands of years after the events.
> 
> I can recognize untrustworthy sources when I see them especially if they are ingrained in myth and legends.
> 
> 
> I already asked you these questions and ever single time you ignore them.
> 
> 1.List a ancient Chinese text that mentions Xich Quy,Van Lang or the Hung kings.
> 
> 2.Name some minority or Southern Han Chinese legends about Xich Quy,Van Lang or the Hung king.
> 
> 3.Show archaeological evidence that Xich Quy,Van Lang or the Hung Kings exists.
> 
> 4.Show Sinologists,Western academics and reserach papers that agree with your claims.
> 
> 
> Other than the Baipu the non Sinicized natives of Southern China were Baiyue,Luoyue and Ouyue who the Vietnamese which the kingdom of AuLac was supposedly a fusion of, are both considered part of the Baiyue.


the Annams are Mon-Khmer root got nothing to do with Baiyue, there is member here called Rechoice , I remembered speak with him about this Xi Ou and Luo Yue, you can asked him about it, oh wait he will tell you he don't care what historians spammed lol
Xi Ou is An Duong Vuong tribes, this admit by Annam professors said he is Tay people

here for Luo Yue
Perhaps nothing reveals this better than the fact that today the Zhuang in China also argue that they are descended from the ancient Lạc Việt, or Luoyue in Chinese.43 Obviously the Zhuang and the Vietnamese cannot both be right.


EastSea said:


> Edward Schafer was wrong.
> 
> Could you know this is toad or frog ?
> 
> look at the tradition painting here in Vietnam.
> 
> and what related to* totem and worship is the story of Gold Toad.
> 
> Thiềm Thừ –*
> 蟾蜍
> *Cóc Tài lộc *
> _Theo truyền thuyết của người Hoa, thì Thiềm Thừ vốn là yêu tinh, được tiên ông Lưu Hải thu phục, theo Tiên ông Lưu Hải để tu hành nên không làm hại nhân gian như trước, mà ngược lại dùng phép thuật của mình đi khắp nhân gian để nhả tiền giúp đỡ mọi người, để thể hiện sự phục thiện, sự cải tà quy chính với tiên ông Lưu Hải. Vì vậy Thiềm Thừ được người Hoa trân trọng và trở thành một trong những con vật linh thiêng trong phong thủy về tài lộc và yên lành.
> 
> Read more. Thiềm thừ tài lộc đồng nguyên chất Đồ phong thủy, cóc, cóc tài lộc, cóc ngậm tiền, cóc vàng, cóc đồng, cóc phong thủy, thiềm thừ, thiền thừ, vật phẩm phong thủy bằng đồng. | Thủ công mỹ nghệ
> _
> 
> don't forget that I stated in my early posts that Dong Son bronze drums belong to South East Asian people, including Minorities are living to day in Southern China.


now you just bring up nonsense lied, from that's article it said legends to do with Chinese, the bronze drum here got nothing to do with them, worship of frog is Zhuang cultures, what that toad article got to do with anything

ask 100 people and they will all tell you it look like frog, even the taobabe girl post her troll say it
This is a closeup of one of the frogs that were fused to the top of the Chợ Bờ drum. This type of drum was developed later than previous bronze drums, roughly between the 4th century B.C. and 1stcentury A.D.

Since frogs emerge during rain, and rain usually leads to good harvests, this drum was most probably used to predict times of planting as well as to request opportunistic rainfall.

When the drums are beaten during festivals and the various holidays, the sound is said to resemble the rumbling sounds of thunder. With the frogs present, it is a plea for ask for rainfall, which brings with it, a bountiful harvest

I asked a simple question and you could prove bronze drum belong to you, tell me just one folk story relate to bronze drum and your Annams, I know you got folk story for banh chung and Hung King so give a folk story for drum and it can easily be settled


----------



## Grand Historian

EastSea said:


> Pls to read the article I posted here under, and think more about the differences of concept nationality and ethnicity of Chinese people.
> 
> 
> *Migration and Ethnicity in Chinese History: Hakkas, Pengmin, and Their Neighbors.
> 
> By Leong Sow-Theng*. Edited by Tim Wright. Stanford, Calif.: Stanford University Press, 1997. Pp. xix + 234. $45 (cloth).
> 
> _Ethnic identity is forged not just by psychology, but by material forces. China's powerfully unified ethnic identity is famous: Han Chinese descendants of the people of the Yellow River Plain, unified by the Emperor Qin Shi over two thousand years ago. Leong Sow-Theng's beautifully detailed posthumous volume Migration and Ethnicity in Chinese History examines how migration shaped the identity of the Hakka people. His perspective reveals strongly contested and divergent local ethnic identities, languages, and cultures, each modeled in contact and conflict with other local peoples. The Hakkas belong to China's ethnic Han Chinese majority, 94% of the population. (The fifty-six officially recognized national minorities, including ethnic Koreans, Tibetans, Mongols, and Miao, are 6%.) The Hakkas, just 3% of China's population, are the smallest of the seven major Han Chinese subgroups, each with its own local culture and dialect, as different as English from German. Most northerners belong to the native Mandarin-speaking 70%. The other groups are the Cantonese, the Wu speakers (from around Shanghai), the Min (from Fujian and Taiwan), the Xiang (Hunan), and the Gan (Jiangxi Province). The Hakkas, the only subgroup without their own province, live among the mountaintops of Guangdong, Fujian, Taiwan, Jiangxi, and Sichuan. Yet Hakkas gained so much political power that they include disproportionate numbers of the scholarly, military, and political elites, as well as Deng Xiaoping. In 1984 Hakkas formed 50% of China's most powerful political entity, the Standing Committee of the Politburo._
> 
> _Until very recently China's ideology of national unity, and horror of civil war, prevented public discussion of the ethnic Han subgroups. Hakkas had long been poor and stigmatized, late migrants to south China. Over the last three centuries millions died in wars between the Hakkas and their Cantonese and Fujianese neighbors. Leong's carefully honed analysis examines migration and contact in the construction of Hakka identity. The Hakkas' own creation legend lauds them as an ancient people, upholders of pure northern Chinese language and tradition. Hakkas, the legend goes, are descendants of Shandong and Henan natives who patriotically migrated south during the Mongol invasions 600 years ago. Hakkas pride themselves on scholarship, thrift, and hard work, and on their independent women who rejected foot-binding and worked in the fields alongside men. They also pride themselves on patriotism, counting as their own China's first president, Sun Yat-sen (though this is disputed), as well as Taiwan president Lee Teng-hui and Singapore strongman Lee Kwan Yew._
> 
> _Yet non-Hakkas, especially Cantonese and Fujian Min, have long denigrated the Hakkas as hillbilly "shack-people" (the pengmin of Leong's title). The very word Hakka is a Cantonese slur meaning "guest people"--that is, people who are supposed to go home. Poorer than southerners, later migrants forced to settle the worst mountain land, the Hakkas are stereotyped as stingy, clannish, disruptive outsiders, who work their women like animals, rather than sequestering them at home, according to the now defunct mainstream ideal. All southern Chinese have intermarried extensively with indigenous people. But the most contentious charge holds that the Hakkas are "not even Han Chinese," but rather a non-Han minority, the She, an ethnic Miao subgroup. Hakkas objected to particularly "barbarous" or "aborigine" labels well into the twentieth century._
> 
> _Leong, himself of Hakka ancestry, elucidates how the Hakkas gradually distinguished themselves from other "shack-people," forging a self-consciously separate language and identity only in the past 300 years. Public pride emerges only in the twentieth century. Leong calmly demonstrates how the factual record disputes crucial features of the Hakka creation myth. Far from being ancient northern scholars and nobility, patriotic preservers of pure northern speech, the record shows the Hakka ancestors as very recent arrivals, very poor, uneducated, itinerant workers. Hakkas adopted old southern Chinese speech, which separated into a self-recognized Hakka dialect only within the last few..._
> 
> _Preview of first page_


This is not relevant at all,the Hakka were stigmatized because they were later migrants.

Examples of inter ethnic conflict would be the Punti-Hakka wars,and the Quanzhou/Zhangzhou/Hakka wars in Taiwan.

You have to realize the She the Hakka mixed with are in reality a mix of minorities and Han bandits.

I'm still waiting for your sources for any of your previous claims.


----------



## Wholegrain

Viet said:


> bad memory, remember of the Ming conquest of Vietnam in year 1407?
> 
> after Vietnam/Jiaozhi was forcibly returned to imperial China, all Viet related indigenous books, cultures and custom were banned or burnt. only Chinese stuffs were allowed.



The Ming dynasty liberated Vietnam from your Chinese ruled Ho dynasty. Without Ming, you would still be ruled by Chinese. When Yongle defeated the Ho, he said innocents should not be killed. The Ming invaded the Ho in support of the Tran, but the Ho had violently murdered the Tran.

Entry - Southeast Asia in the Ming Shi-lu



> Yong-le: Year 5, Month 11, Day 3 (2 Dec 1407)
> « Previous | Record 567 of 3279 | Next »
> Imperial orders were sent to the Xin-cheng Marquis Zhang Fu, regional commander of Jiao-zhi. The orders read: "Jiao-zhi has now been pacified. If there are any who are rebellious, they mu st be eliminated. However, the officers and men mu st be warned not to let this extend to the innocent. The young males of the families of the evil rebels are not to be killed. However, all those who have pushed into the inner territory, regardless of whether they are slaves or ordinary people, if they take up arms in opposition, mu st be killed without leniency." Similar orders were sent to the Xi-ping Marquis Mu Sheng, deputy general of the left.



And most of the Vietnamese Kinh ancestors in the Red River Delta and Hanoi supported the Ming rule. The Kinh were "people of the capital".

It was Le Loi, who lived in the Vietnamese borderlands in Thanh Hoa where the "barbarian" Trai people (people of the camps) lived, where he started his rebellion. Le Loi himself was NOT a Kinh, but a Trai, and his army was made out of Trai people. The Kinh viewed Trai as barbarians.

Many of the Kinh Vietnamese in the Red River plain *supported the Ming*. Le Loi's anti Ming rebellion, was actually a Trai vs Kinh war, with the Kinh fighting for Ming against the Le dynasty Trai.

A History of the Vietnamese - K. W. Taylor - Google Books

A History of the Vietnamese - K. W. Taylor - Google Books

Strange Parallels: Southeast Asia in Global Context, C. 800 - 1830 - Victor B. Lieberman - Google Books

A History of the Vietnamese - K. W. Taylor - Google Books

A History of the Vietnamese - K. W. Taylor - Google Books

A History of the Vietnamese - K. W. Taylor - Google Books

A History of the Vietnamese - K. W. Taylor - Google Books

A History of the Vietnamese - K. W. Taylor - Google Books

A History of the Vietnamese - K. W. Taylor - Google Books

The Trai people are ancestors of the Muong people. The Trai/Muong and Kinh were both of the same origin originally, speaking the same language. The difference between the Trai/Muong and Kinh, is that Kinh Vietnamese were influenced by Chinese culture, religion, and language, with Kinh adopting thousands of Chinese loanwords in their language, using Chu Nom characters, adopting Chinese Daoism, Confucianism, government, and alot of Chinese culture. The Trai/Muong refused to adopt it and maintained the original "barbarian" culture from before Chinese influenced Vietnam.

Muong people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Le Loi was a Trai/Muong, with a Trai/Muong army fighting against the Ming-Kinh Vietnamese forces. After Le Loi overthrew Ming rule, he and Le dynasty historians like Ngo Si Lien engaged in rewriting Vietnamese history to justify their own rule over Vietnam.

The Le dynasty then created the Kinh as a new ethnicity to seperate Vietnamese from minorities and other peoples. Before that, there was no seperate Kinh ethnic group, thats why the "Kinh" of the Red River region supported the Ming.

Goddess on the Rise: Pilgrimage and Popular Religion in Vietnam - Philip Taylor - Google Books

Human Rights in Asia: A Comparative Legal Study of Twelve Asian ... - Google Books

Historical Dictionary of the Peoples of the Southeast Asian Massif - Jean Michaud - Google Books

Postwar Vietnam: Dynamics of a Transforming Society - Google Books

The Art of Not Being Governed: An Anarchist History of Upland Southeast Asia - James C. Scott - Google Books

Culture and Customs of Vietnam - Mark W. McLeod, Thi Dieu Nguyen - Google Books

Le dynasty historian Ngo Si Lien started inventing tales about Vietnamese being descended from Shennong and making stories up about the Hung Kings, to extend the Kinh's ethnic history back to antiquity. Before that, the Kinh didn't have a seperate distinct history.

A History of the Vietnamese - K. W. Taylor - Google Books

Blood and Soil: A World History of Genocide and Extermination from Sparta to ... - Ben Kiernan - Google Books


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## bolo

So in summary:
Viets claim Southern Chinese are Baiyue with no proof other than myths written in Vietnamese.
In reality, the northern Chinese conquered the south tribes, killed the men, bang some sweet Baiyue chicks and sinocize them for generations making them Chinese and gave them customs, culture, etc. Now some of these buggers are trying revise history with no evidence.

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## EastSea

yue10 said:


> the Annams are Mon-Khmer root got nothing to do with Baiyue, there is member here called Rechoice , I remembered speak with him about this Xi Ou and Luo Yue, you can asked him about it, oh wait he will tell you he don't care what historians spammed lol
> Xi Ou is An Duong Vuong tribes, this admit by Annam professors said he is Tay people
> 
> here for Luo Yue
> Perhaps nothing reveals this better than the fact that today the Zhuang in China also argue that they are descended from the ancient Lạc Việt, or Luoyue in Chinese.43 Obviously the Zhuang and the Vietnamese cannot both be right.
> 
> now you just bring up nonsense lied, from that's article it said legends to do with Chinese, the bronze drum here got nothing to do with them,* worship of frog is Zhuang cultures*, what that toad article got to do with anything
> 
> ask 100 people and they will all tell you it look like frog, even the taobabe girl post her troll say it
> This is a closeup of one of the frogs that were fused to the top of the Chợ Bờ drum. This type of drum was developed later than previous bronze drums, roughly between the 4th century B.C. and 1stcentury A.D.
> 
> Since frogs emerge during rain, and rain usually leads to good harvests, this drum was most probably used to predict times of planting as well as to request opportunistic rainfall.
> 
> When the drums are beaten during festivals and the various holidays, the sound is said to resemble the rumbling sounds of thunder. With the frogs present, it is a plea for ask for rainfall, which brings with it, a bountiful harvest
> 
> I asked a simple question and you could prove bronze drum belong to you, tell me just one folk story relate to bronze drum and your Annams, I know you got folk story for banh chung and Hung King so give a folk story for drum and it can easily be settled



.
study more kid.
Bronze Drum founded also in Cambodia. 

Was toad/frog Totem worshiping in Khmer Empire in ancient time ?


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## Grand Historian

As usual EastSea has no sources to back up his false conjectures.

@Hu Songshan EastSea has provided nothing of value to this thread,instead he attempts to troll Chinese members by distorting their lineage and history.


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## Wholegrain

EastSea said:


> In consequence of expansion of Han, Shanghai people descendants of Wu Yue don't like Peking people, who speak Mandarin,
> 滿大人 language. It reported that Shanghai people don't like to share same bus with peking people when they on tourist tour in oversea.
> 
> Hakka ís came from Xiongnu, many rebelling has been made by them to rule back Han Chinese.
> 
> Yet Hakkas gained so much political power that they include disproportionate numbers of the scholarly, military, and political elites, as well as Deng Xiaoping. In 1984 Hakkas formed 50% of China's most powerful political entity, the Standing Committee of the Politburo.
> 
> Hakka are dont shared same blood lineage with native Yue people, native Cantonese is NanYue people. There was the civil war in Canton between Punti (Yue) people and Guest people (immigrants).



Wrong idiot, Hakka Y chromosome is genetically indistinguishable from southern Han Fujianese (Min speakers) and Teochew

ScholarBank@NUS: Terms of Use



> Using subject-declared dialect group affiliations, it was confirmed that Fujianese, Teochew, & Hakka Zhang Y Chromosomes do not form genetically distinguishable groups (STR & SNP Exact Test p = 1.0000 +/- 0 & 0.0673 +/- 0.0059, respectively).



Again with your trash claiming that southern Han people like Cantonese and Min speakers are Baiyue. They are descended from Northern Han in their paternal line, they have Northern Han Y chromosomes while descending from baiyue in their maternal line. Their language is Sinitic and even closer to ancient Chinese than Mandarin, they culture is Chinese, they identify as Han. They are descended from northern Han on their father's side.

The real Baiyue people still exist, they are called Zhuang people, Miao (Hmong) people, Yao (Mien) People, Kam-Sui people, who all speak real Baiyue languages and preserve Baiyue Y chromosomes.

How Han are Taiwanese Han? Genetic Inference of Plains Indigenous Ancestry ... - Shu-Juo Chen - Google Books



> Y chromosome data show that on average southern Chinese Han have a large paternal contribution from northern Chinese Han (82%). But mtDNA data show that southern Chinese Han have equal maternal contributions from northern Chinese Han (56%) and southern Chinese natives ( 44%) (Table 4A). The high paternal but lower maternal contribution from northern Chinese Han indicate strong sex-biased admixture in southern Chinese Han over the past two millennia (Wen et al. 2004). A more recent comparison of paternal and maternal data confirmed the sex-biased admixture in southern Chinese Han (Xue et al. 2008).
> 
> When we consider the admixture proportions of Fujian Han and Guangdong Han, the ancestors of Taiwanese Han, sex-biased admixture is even more evident than in the southern Chinese Han averages. Fujian Han are estimated to have a 100 percent paternal contribution from northern Chinese Han but only a 34 percent maternal contribution from northern Chinese Han. Guangdong Han are estimated to have 68 percent paternal but only 1 5 percent maternal contribution from northern Chinese Han. The maternal contributions from southern Chinese natives to Fujian and Guangdong Han were estimated as 66 percent and 85 percent (Table 3A), respectively. The extreme sex-biased contributions in Fujian Han and Guangdong Han indicate that the male ancestors of Taiwanese Han frequently intermarried with the female ancestors of southern Chinese natives before they migrated to Taiwan.
> 
> This sex-bias illustrates a significant feature of the Han expansion: many male migrants from northern China married women from local non-Han populations in the south. Therefore, the Han-grandfathers-Indigenous-grandmothers folk saying seems to apply generally to southern China over the past two millenia.



http://159.226.149.45/compgenegroup/paper/wenbo Han culture paper (2004).pdf



> The spread of culture and language in human populations is explained by two alternative models: the demic diffusion model, which involves mass movement of people; and the cultural diffusion model, which refers to cultural impact between populations and involves limited genetic exchange between them. The mechanism of the peopling of Europe has long been debated, a key issue being whether the diffusion of agriculture and language from the Near East was concomitant with a large movement of farmers. Here we show, by systematically analysing Y-chromosome and mitochondrial DNA variation in Han populations, that the pattern of the southward expansion of Han culture is consistent with the demic diffusion model, and that males played a larger role than females in this expansion. The Han people, who all share the same culture and language, exceed 1.16 billion (2000 census), and are by far the largest ethnic group in the world. The expansion process of Han culture is thus of great interest to researchers in many fields.



European Journal of Human Genetics - Abstract of article: A spatial analysis of genetic structure of human populations in China reveals distinct difference between maternal and paternal lineages



> Analyses of archeological, anatomical, linguistic, and genetic data suggested consistently the presence of a significant boundary between the populations of north and south in China. However, the exact location and the strength of this boundary have remained controversial. In this study, we systematically explored the spatial genetic structure and the boundary of north–south division of human populations using mtDNA data in 91 populations and Y-chromosome data in 143 populations. Our results highlight a distinct difference between spatial genetic structures of maternal and paternal lineages. A substantial genetic differentiation between northern and southern populations is the characteristic of maternal structure, with a significant uninterrupted genetic boundary extending approximately along the Huai River and Qin Mountains north to Yangtze River. On the paternal side, however, no obvious genetic differentiation between northern and southern populations is revealed.



大中华文明圈各地域人们的血统构成，例：大和民族九州岛父系—汉族血统40%... – 【人人分享-人人网】



> According to a DNA Chinese study for all Han ethnic group. The average Cantonese paternal Y-DNA is 60% Han and 40% Baiyue while maternal mtDNA is 20% Han and 80% Baiyue. Of the Han paternal Y-DNA ancestry 10% is estimated to have came from during the Qin dynasty and 50% came from the Tang/Song dynasty 《人口研究》 - 中国各地DNA数据 [34]



The majority of Northern and Southern Han Y chromosomes are the same, subclades of Y haplogroup O3. Native haplogroups like O1 are in the minority.


























Southern dialects like Cantonese are even closer to ancient Middle Chinese than Mandarin

Food in China: A Cultural and Historical Inquiry - Frederick J. Simoons - Google Books

Early Child Cantonese: Facts and Implications - Shek Tse, Hui Li - Google Books



> Cantonese is ancient as well as modern
> 
> As spoken today, Cantonese features certain phonological characteristics that are quite close to some pronunciations in Middle Chinese. In fact, some classic Chinese literary pieces, especially poetry, sound close to the original when read in Cantonese because Cantonese phonology is similar in many aspects to the pronunciations used in Middle Chinese.
> 
> In contrast, the pronunciation of Mandarin is very different from Middle Chinese; thus, poetry in Middle Chinese can sound quite discordant when read in Mandarin. Using Mandarin phonology in poetry and other rhyme-based writings originally composed in Middle Chinese may sometimes make the lines of the poem sound quite incoherent as Mandarin differs so markedly from Middle Chinese phonology.



The Chinese Language: Its History and Current Usage - Google Books



> Cantonese is probably the closest living dialect to the Middle Chinese of the Tang dynasty (618-907 CE), and the Cantonese often refer to themselves as 唐人 tong yan, "people of the Tang."



Non Han people would refer to Han people from the central plains (Zhongyuan) as "people of the Tang". The Cantonese would use this same term to refer to themselves.

Chinese History: A Manual - Endymion Porter Wilkinson - Google Books

China - Michael Cannings - Google Books

mandarin: ni hao, wo shi guangdong ren 你好、我是廣東人
cantonese: nei ho, ngoh si gwong dung yan. 你好、我是廣東人
Minnan: lí hó, góa sī Kńg-tang lâng 你好、我是廣東人
hakka: ngi ho, ngai si Kóng tûng ngìn 你好、我是廣東人

vietnamese:Xin chào, Tôi là Người Quảng Đông. 嗔嘲, 晬罗



廣東

Japanese: Konnichiwa, watashi ha kanton jin desu こんにちは, 私は広東人です

Korean: Annyeong, jeonun gwangdung saram imnida 安寧, 저는 廣東 사람 입니다

Cantonese, Min, Wu, Xiang, Gan, Hakka, and Mandarin are all Sinitic/Chinese dialects and all descended from Old Chinese.

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## Wholegrain

During the Han dynasty, the Han population, concentrated in northern China, outnumbered the southern Baiyue by tens of millions. The Baiyue lands were sparsely populated yet fertile so it easy for tens of millions of northern Han to settle in southern China.











All of these Baiyue people are still around today






Li people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Zhuang people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Bouyei people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Dong people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Miao people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yao people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Baiyue languages are still spoken today by these minorities













EastSea said:


> You can stop lie and spread such idiot trash of white men.
> 
> Vietnamese look at Chinese at big boy but bad boy, to be careful when handling with them, they should bite us suddenly if they can. Ming Dynasty, Man Qing Dynasty did it, and Mao/Deng, did it recently 1974, 1979.


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## Wholegrain

During the Han dynasty, the Han population, concentrated in northern China, outnumbered the southern Baiyue by tens of millions. The Baiyue lands were sparsely populated yet fertile so it easy for tens of millions of northern Han to settle in southern China.











All of these Baiyue people are still around today






Li people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Zhuang people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Bouyei people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Dong people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Miao people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yao people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Baiyue languages are still spoken today by these minorities













EastSea said:


> You can stop lie and spread such idiot trash of white men.
> 
> Vietnamese look at Chinese at big boy but bad boy, to be careful when handling with them, they should bite us suddenly if they can. Ming Dynasty, Man Qing Dynasty did it, and Mao/Deng, did it recently 1974, 1979.


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## Viet

bolo said:


> So in summary:
> Viets claim Southern Chinese are Baiyue with no proof other than myths written in Vietnamese..


no, wrong summary. correct is
- Southern China was populated by 100 Yue tribes.
- Nanyue was Vietnamese Kingdom.


bolo said:


> In reality, the northern Chinese conquered the south tribes, killed the men, bang some sweet Baiyue chicks and sinocize them for generations making them Chinese and gave them customs, culture, etc. Now some of these buggers are trying revise history with no evidence.


that is correct. Northern Chinese were bloody invaders. Go home!

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## EastSea

Grand Historian said:


> As usual EastSea has no sources to back up his false conjectures.
> 
> @Hu Songshan EastSea has provided nothing of value to this thread,instead he attempts to troll Chinese members by distorting their lineage and history.



you are brainwashed boy by propaganda made in China PRC, so you can't understand. 

read again the article I posted for you above. You mixed the ethnicity concept and Nationality concept. It is nothing wrong if you could claim that you are Min Yue in ethnic and also you are Chinese citizen.


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## EastSea

Wholegrain said:


> Again with your trash claiming that southern Han people like Cantonese and Min speakers are Baiyue. They are descended from Northern Han in their paternal line, they have Northern Han Y chromosomes while descending from baiyue in their maternal line. Their language is Sinitic and even closer to ancient Chinese than Mandarin, they culture is Chinese, they identify as Han. They are descended from northern Han on their father's side.



Y O3 Chromosome cluster is existed in all East Asia people: Chinese, Korean and Japanese and also dominated in Vietnamese who belong to South East Asia, kid.



Wholegrain said:


> The real Baiyue people still exist, they are called Zhuang people, Miao (Hmong) people, Yao (Mien) People, Kam-Sui people, who all speak real Baiyue languages and preserve Baiyue Y chromosomes.



Could you present the evidences to proof for that, Y chromosome from partinal lineage of Bai Yue is differed form Native Cantonese ?







You didn't answered my question until now : Who are - 40 % Southern Chinese in canton who don't shared partinal lineage with Northern Han Chinese ?

Note that Zhuang people in Canton is less than 1% of population of Canton Province.

Southern Chinese is belong to Tai/Katay people.

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## Wholegrain

EastSea said:


> Y O3 Chromosome cluster is existed in all East Asia people: Chinese, Korean and Japanese and also dominated in Vietnamese who belong to South East Asia, kid.
> 
> 
> 
> Could you present the evidences to proof for that, Y chromosome from partinal lineage of Bai Yue is differed form Native Cantonese ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You didn't answered my question until now : Who are - 40 % Southern Chinese in canton who don't shared partinal lineage with Northern Han Chinese ?
> 
> Note that Zhuang people in Canton is less than 1% of population of Canton Province.
> 
> Southern Chinese is belong to Tai/Katay people.



Too bad you didn't read. It didn't just talk about northern and southern Han sharing O3a- because indeed other east asians have that subclade. Not only do Northern Han and Southern Han share mostly O3a, they* share the same subclades of O3a which carry the same mutations (at similar frequencies), not shared by other east asian peoples.* . Korean and Vietnamese O3 is a different subclade and carries different mutations than Northern and Southern Han. And if you paid attention, the articles did say that southern Han had some Y chromosome contribution from natives, but its was in the minority compared to northern Han (60% northern Han is greater than 40% native)



> To test this hypothesis, we compared the genetic profiles of southern Hans with their two parental population groups: northern Hans and southern natives, which include the samples of Daic, Hmong-Mien and Austro-Asiatic speaking populations currently residing in China, and in some cases its neighbouring countries. Genetic variation in both the non-recombining region of the Y chromosome (NRY) and mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA)13–16 were surveyed in 28 Han populations from most of the provinces in China (see Fig. 1 and Supplementary Table 1 for details).
> 
> On the paternal side, southern Hans and northern Hans share similar frequencies of Y-chromosome haplogroups (Supplementary Table 2), which are characterized by two haplogroups carrying the M122-C mutations (O3-M122 and O3e-M134) that are prevalent in almost all Han populations studied (mean and range: 53.8%, 37–71%; 54.2%, 35–74%, for northern and southern Hans, respect- ively). Haplogroups carrying M119-C (O1* and O1b) and/or M95-T (O2a* and O2a1) (following the nomenclature of the Y Chromosome Consortium) which are prevalent in southern natives, are more frequent in southern Hans (19%, 3–42%) than in northern Hans (5%, 1–10%). In addition, haplogroups O1b-M110, O2a1-M88 and O3d-M7, which are prevalent in southern natives17, were only observed in some southern Hans (4% on average), but not in northern Hans. Therefore, the contri- bution of southern natives in southern Hans is limited, if we assume that the frequency distribution of Y lineages in southern natives represents that before the expansion of Han culture that started 2,000yr ago5. The results of analysis of molecular variance (AMOVA) further indicate that northern Hans and southern Hans are not significantly different in their Y haplogroups (FST 1⁄4 0.006, P . 0.05), demonstrating that southern Hans bear a high resemblance to northern Hans in their male lineages.



Not only were the Y chromosomes the same, the same *spatial structure* was observed.

European Journal of Human Genetics - Abstract of article: A spatial analysis of genetic structure of human populations in China reveals distinct difference between maternal and paternal lineages



> Analyses of archeological, anatomical, linguistic, and genetic data suggested consistently the presence of a significant boundary between the populations of north and south in China. However, the exact location and the strength of this boundary have remained controversial. In this study, we systematically explored the spatial genetic structure and the boundary of north–south division of human populations using mtDNA data in 91 populations and Y-chromosome data in 143 populations. Our results highlight a distinct difference between spatial genetic structures of maternal and paternal lineages. A substantial genetic differentiation between northern and southern populations is the characteristic of maternal structure, with a significant uninterrupted genetic boundary extending approximately along the Huai River and Qin Mountains north to Yangtze River. On the paternal side, however, no obvious genetic differentiation between northern and southern populations is revealed.



This article said that Southern Han were (autosomally) genetically more similar to southern natives by studying *autosomal DNA*, but Y chromosome was mostly the same. 

How Han are Taiwanese Han? Genetic Inference of Plains Indigenous Ancestry ... - Shu-Juo Chen - Google Books



> *A study of autosomal STRs also demonstrated the north-south division of Han( Chu et al. 1998). *How did the distinction between northern and southern Han evolve? A data comparison of Y chromosome and mtDNA polymorphisms solves the ...





> A data comparison of Y chromosome and mtDNA polymorphisms solves the puzzle directly. According to Y chromosome data, northern Chinese Han and southern Chinese Han have very similar paternal lineages. The Y-SNP 03-M122 is prevalent in both northern (54%) and southern Chinese Han (54%), while the prevalent lineages in southern Chinese natives, 01-M119 and 02-M95, are more frequent in southern (19%) than in northern Chinese Han (5%). Some common lineages shared between southern Chinese Han and southern Chinese natives, such as Olb-MllO, 02al-M88 and 03d-M7, are not seen in northern Chinese Han. In contrast, northern and southern Chinese Han are significantly different in their mtDNA lineages.



The reason is, because after a first wave of Northern Han men moved south and married Baiyue women, their male descendants continued to marry more Baiyue women, and the Baiyue autosomal DNA kep accumulating while only the northern Han Y chromosome was passed from father to son down the paternal line. But since all East Asian cultures are patrilineal and trace ancestry and customs by the father, they became Han. In Han and Vietnamese genealogies, only the male line is recorded in the family tree, the surname is passed through the male line, and so is ethnicity.

If you go to Africa, and you and you male descendants keep on marrying African women, you descendants will look black, and have mostly African autosomal DNA, but still have Vietnamese male Y chromosome.



EastSea said:


> you are brainwashed boy by propaganda made in China PRC, so you can't understand.
> 
> read again the article I posted for you above. You mixed the ethnicity concept and Nationality concept. It is nothing wrong if you could claim that you are Min Yue in ethnic and also you are Chinese citizen.



A Cantonese scholar who lived during the Ming Qing dynasties already wrote an essay rebuking this nonsense. He said Cantonese were descended from northern Han and that the natives minorities were descendants of Baiyue.

Public Spheres and Collective Identities - Google Books



> The Cantonese scholar Qu Dajun addressed this problem in an essay entitled "The Real Yue People" (Zhen Yueren). It appeared a few years after his death in 1696.



Public Spheres and Collective Identities - Google Books



> *However, his essay about the Yue diaspora was chiefly concerned with validating the center-created Chineseness of the Cantonese realm (Guangdong). It proposed that the "real Yue," if they survived in seventeenth-century south China, were merely a shrunken remnant of "tattooed" non-Chinese minorities. It praised China's archetypal centralizer, the brutal northern militarist who had called himself the First Emperor, for transforming ancient Guangdong's barbarism by forcibly shipping marginal " Chinese people" (Zhongguo zhi ren) south as settlers*.



Genetics has proven Zhuang to be Baiyue descendants

http://www.comonca.org.cn/LH/Doc/A30.PDF

Y-chromosome genotyping and genetic structu... [Yi Chuan Xue Bao. 2006] - PubMed - NCBI

Yi Chuan Xue Bao. 2006 Dec;33(12):1060-72.
Y-chromosome genotyping and genetic structure of Zhuang populations.
Chen J, Li H, Qin ZD, Liu WH, Lin WX, Yin RX, Jin L, Pan SL.
Source
Department of Pathophysiology, Guangxi Medical University, Nanning 530021, China.
Abstract



> Zhuang, the largest ethnic minority population in China, is one of the descendant groups of the ancient Bai-Yue. Linguistically, Zhuang languages are grouped into northern and southern dialects. To characterize its genetic structure, 13 East Asian-specific Y-chromosome biallelic markers and 7 Y-chromosome short tandem repeat (STR) markers were used to infer the haplogroups of Zhuang populations. Our results showed that O*, O2a, and O1 are the predominant haplogroups in Zhuang. Frequency distribution and principal component analysis showed that Zhuang was closely related to groups of Bai-Yue origin and therefore was likely to be the descendant of Bai-Yue. The results of principal component analysis and hierarchical clustering analysis contradicted the linguistically derived north-south division. Interestingly, a west-east clinal trend of haplotype frequency changes was observed, which was supported by AMOVA analysis that showed that between-population variance of east-west division was larger than that of north-south division. O* network suggested that the Hongshuihe branch was the center of Zhuang. Our study suggests that there are three major components in Zhuang. The O* and O2a constituted the original component; later, O1 was brought into Zhuang, especially eastern Zhuang; and finally, northern Han population brought O3 into the Zhuang populations.



Yue Chinese - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> The area of China south of the Nanling Mountains, known as the Lingnan (roughly modern Guangxi and Guangdong), was originally home to peoples known to the Chinese as the Hundred Yue. Large-scale Chinese migration to the area began after the Qin conquest of the region in 214 BC.[7] Successive waves followed at times of upheaval in North China, such as the falls of the Han, Tang and Song dynasties.[7] The most popular route was via the Xiang River, which the Qin had connected to the Li River by the Lingqu Canal, and thence into the valley of the Xi Jiang (West River).[8] A secondary route followed the Gan River and then the Bei Jiang (North River) into eastern Guangdong.[9] Yue speakers were later joined by Hakka speakers following the North River route, and Min speakers arriving by sea.[10]
> 
> After the fall of Qin, the Lingnan area was part of the independent state of Nanyue for about a century, before being incorporated in the Han empire.[9] Following the collapse of the Tang dynasty, much of the Yue area became part of the Southern Han, one of the longest-lived states of the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms, between 917 and 971.[9]
> 
> The waves of Chinese migration also assimilated huge numbers of aborigines, with the result that today's Yue-speaking population is descended from both groups.[11] The colloquial layers of Yue dialects have a number of elements influenced by the Tai languages formerly spoken widely in the area and still spoken by people such as the Zhuang.[12]

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## Sasquatch

Grand Historian said:


> As usual EastSea has no sources to back up his false conjectures.
> 
> @Hu Songshan EastSea has provided nothing of value to this thread,instead he attempts to troll Chinese members by distorting their lineage and history.



This thread seems to have run its course and whatever point you wanted to get across probably didn't because of trolls on the topic.

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