# PAKISTAN BUY CHINESE SUBMARINES



## Blue Marlin

*Pakistan and China on Thursday agreed to a multi-billion dollar deal that would see Beijing provide eight submarines to the Pakistan Navy, in an agreement that analysts are calling the largest-ever defence deal China has agreed to with any country.*

Despite the magnitude of the deal, government officials did not provide any details, even declining to confirm the size of the transaction. However, the composition of the Chinese delegation with which the agreement was reached suggests that the arrangements have been struck for purchase of eight submarines.

“Pakistan and China have reached an understanding on matters of defence cooperation relating to Pakistan Navy,” announced the finance ministry after a meeting with Chinese authorities. “Financial arrangements to this effect were also concluded.”

According to a briefing that the defence ministry gave to parliament in April this year, Pakistan was negotiating a deal for acquisition of submarines from China. In the same month, the UK-based Financial Times, citing a retired senior official, claimed in a report that the contract could be worth $4 billion to $5 billion, the largest defence deal ever by China.

Sources in the finance ministry said that Pakistan would make down payments to China in four installments and the delivery of the submarines will be made in the coming years.

The financial arrangements were agreed during a meeting between Finance Minister Ishaq Dar and Xu Ziqin, President of the Chinese state-owned China Shipbuilding & Offshore International Company Limited (CSOC).

Finance Secretary Waqar Masood and Economic Affairs Secretary Saleem Sethi assisted Dar. Chinese Ambassador Sun Weidong also participated in the negotiations.

CSOC is the trade arm of China Shipbuilding Industry Corporation (CSIC) and its main business is the manufacture, repair, lease, and sales of military ships and submarines.

Sources in the finance ministry said that the agreement is still subject to final review form higher authorities in Beijing, following which a formal agreement will be signed. The press release issued by the ministry after the event was vague. According to the release, Dar said that the visit by the CSOC delegation to Pakistan would enhance and further strengthen their bilateral economic and defence cooperation.

The release quoted Xu thanking Dar for his contribution in concluding the arrangements, saying it was reflective of the deep rooted China-Pakistan friendship.

Last month, both the countries had also signed an agreement for construction of six patrol vessels for the Pakistan Maritime Security Agency (PMSA). The agreement had been signed by China Ship Trading Company (CSTC) and the Pakistani defence production ministry. According to the agreement, four ships will be constructed in China while the remaining two will be built at Karachi’s Shipyard under a transfer of technology agreement.

SOURCE:Defence cooperation: Pakistan to buy eight submarines from China - The Express Tribune

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## Blue Marlin

FINALLLYYYYYYYYY !!
@Zarvan @Manticore @Horus @WebMaster @TOPGUN @Armstrong
@AZADPAKISTAN2009 @fatman17

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## Viking 63

Great news !!!!!


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## maxpayne

More details pls. Which type? FYI Sir @Rashid Mahmood


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## untitled




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## MAJESTICAL

Niceeeeee...

Sir @persona_non_ grata ! Can you help me with that flag emos  ^_^


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## untitled

MAJESTICAL said:


> Niceeeeee...
> 
> Sir @persona_non_ grata ! Can you help me with that flag emos  ^_^



You just used smileys in your post

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## Baidar Bakht

Finally we have some news about the deal. Can't wait to see them under PN.
I am wondering about the types of subs we are going to get.
Pak-Cheen Dosti Zindabad

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## Blue Marlin

They are not saying what type of sub they are buying


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## WaLeEdK2

blue marlin said:


> They are not saying what type of sub they are buying


Lol there's always a catch. Zarvan was confidently saying that two of the subs were Nuclear.


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## razgriz19

blue marlin said:


> They are not saying what type of sub they are buying



S20 probably
And hopefully with AIP


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## MAJESTICAL

persona_non_grata said:


>


Well Ty Sir  

Will Pakistan Navy be getting Anti-ship missiles along this deal?

Will Pakistan Navy be getting Anti-ship missiles along this deal?


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## Pulsar

$5 billion? That's Rs 50,000 crores PKR!  Pakistan seems to be rolling in cash, having a lot of surplus funds.....or is it a gift from the Chinese? 

But next year is payback time for the billions of dollars in IMF/ADB loans - $7 billion to the IMF and $10 billion to the ADB! Where's the money gonna come from? (Nawaz doesn't even pay taxes!! )

Just saying. Not my business though!

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## VelocuR

How is reliable quality from Chinese submarines? heavy noisy Pakistan is going to get it?


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## Viper0011.

Pulsar said:


> $5 billion? That's Rs 50,000 crores PKR!  Pakistan seems to be rolling in cash, having a lot of surplus funds.....or is it a gift from the Chinese?
> 
> But next year is payback time for the billions of dollars in IMF/ADB loans - $7 billion to the IMF and $10 billion to the ADB! Where's the money gonna come from? (Nawaz doesn't even pay taxes!! )
> 
> Just saying. Not my business though!



Pakistan as of today, has over $ 18 billion in cash in her savings account. By 2018 per the IMF, Bloomberg and other financial house's estimates, the savings account would've crossed 22 billion USD. By 2020, Pakistan (at the current pace), should have 25 - 28 billion USD saved up. This is AFTER the budget and needs and all.

I am sorry, $ 8 billion for a deal over eight - ten years means $ 1 billion per year. I think Pakistan can easily afford that. The Pakistan you used to know till 2013, isn't the Pakistan you are dealing with today. By 2025, Pakistan will be between the top 16-18 economies!!!! By 2020, their defense budget would equal that of Turkey (around $ 16-18 billion).

As far as the debt goes, US had borrowed over a trillion from China during the financial crises. What happened? The US stock market is at its highest in the history right now. That trillion can be returned very quickly if need be.

Similarly, Pakistan is growing, more investments and money is coming. It's paying its loans and debts responsibly and its credit rating and borrowing power had been on the rise.....what more do you need? There is no risk or worry, so do not worry.

And btw, NS, IK and all pay JUST as much taxes as the Indian politicians pay....try not to get me started on that. That topic, I've debated on BRK and the results weren't impressive to say the least.

Don't cry, eat a pie!!

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## Quwa

Pulsar said:


> $5 billion? That's Rs 50,000 crores PKR!  Pakistan seems to be rolling in cash, having a lot of surplus funds.....or is it a gift from the Chinese?
> 
> But next year is payback time for the billions of dollars in IMF/ADB loans - $7 billion to the IMF and $10 billion to the ADB! Where's the money gonna come from? (Nawaz doesn't even pay taxes!! )
> 
> Just saying. Not my business though!


$4-5bn was a figure floated by some undisclosed source by Financial Times, it hasn't actually been confirmed if that is the actual amount PN will pay for the submarines. Either the actual amount is lower (around $1.5bn) or the $5bn package includes more than submarines, e.g. frigates, fast attack boats and/or corvettes.

Pakistan could probably free up some money from not fighting in the Tribal Areas next year as well, so peace with Afghanistan and settling whatever issues people have along that border at the negotiating table might help.

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## Thorough Pro

Well at least we don't boast of mother of all deals for 10 years to finally realizing there is no money to back the loud mouth. We keep quite and do whatever is necessary regardless of where the money comes from. 




Pulsar said:


> $5 billion? That's Rs 50,000 crores PKR!  Pakistan seems to be rolling in cash, having a lot of surplus funds.....or is it a gift from the Chinese?
> 
> But next year is payback time for the billions of dollars in IMF/ADB loans - $7 billion to the IMF and $10 billion to the ADB! Where's the money gonna come from? (Nawaz doesn't even pay taxes!! )
> 
> Just saying. Not my business though!

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## Rashid Mahmood

maxpayne said:


> More details pls. Which type? FYI Sir @Rashid Mahmood



Modified Yuan (AIP).
No details yet available.

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## Zarvan

WaLeEdK2 said:


> Lol there's always a catch. Zarvan was confidently saying that two of the subs were Nuclear.


Yes I am fully confident that two are nuclear submarines


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## Beast

VelocuR said:


> Express Tribune news source show the image of submarine, maybe this one.
> 
> S20
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A Type 039A submarine in service with China’s navy. The submarines Pakistan will be procuring from China are believed to be of the *S20 type*, a *scaled down export version of the Type 039A*. PHOTO: FILE
> 
> Defence cooperation: Pakistan to buy eight submarines from China - The Express Tribune
> 
> bad quality?


Jealousy at its best. This sub is even better than latest than Kilo and fitted with AIP.

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## Bilal.

Beast said:


> Jealousy at its best. This sub is even better than latest than Kilo and fitted with AIP.



Jealousy? Why would Pakistanis be jealous of China when we directly benefit from China's progress. Just because you are fending off jealous indians, vietnamese, filipinos, etc. on this forum does not mean you should get locked in the same mindset for your friends.


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## VelocuR

Beast said:


> Jealousy at its best. This sub is even better than latest than Kilo and fitted with AIP.



Brother, first of all I am Pakistani. I am just asking question. Submarines are dangerous games to make sure we get best qualities such as France, Russia, USA, etc. 

Hope you know India is far ahead of their superior Navy than Pakistan's* zero *warships/submarines combined.


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## Edevelop

*PAK INTENDS TO ENHANCE ECONOMIC, DEFENCE COOP WITH CHINA: DAR*

*



*

Friday, July 24, 2015 - Islamabad—Pakistan and China, Thursday, reached understanding on matters of defence cooperation relating to Pak Navy. 

Financial arrangements to this effect were also concluded. The Finance Minister, Senator Mohammad Ishaq Dar held a meeting with Xu Ziqin, President of the Chinese Company, CSOC and the accompanying delegation, having discussion in this regard.

The Finance Minister while talking to the Chinese delegation said, visit by the CSOC delegation to Pakistan would enhance and further strengthen their bilateral economic and defence cooperation. The Minister on this occasion specially praised the efforts and contribution of the Chinese Ambassador, Sun Weidong in furthering cooperation between China and Pakistan. 

The President of CSOC Xu thanked Minister Dar for taking out time from his busy schedule to meet the CSOC delegation. He said this was reflective of the deep-rooted Pak-China friendship. Secretary Finance, Dr. Waqar Masood, Secretary EAD, Saleem Sethi, Chinese Ambassador Sun Weidong and senior Navy officials attended the meeting.

Pak intends to enhance economic, defence coop with China: Dar


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## AsifIjaz

Zarvan said:


> Yes I am fully confident that two are nuclear submarines



Just out of curiosity... is your belief based upon personal feelings / thoughts or is it based upon some info from a colleague in PN???

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## Stealth

Keep in mind Pakistan neva go for down scale or low quality submarines....

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## farhan_9909

As long as they can fire Babur SLCM and each sub to carry atleast 8 of them,i don't care about anything else

Just imagine Babur SLCM on 8 submarines

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## Beast

VelocuR said:


> Brother, first of all I am Pakistani. I am just asking question. Submarines are dangerous games to make sure we get best qualities such as France, Russia, USA, etc.
> 
> Hope you know India is far ahead of their superior Navy than Pakistan's* zero *warships/submarines combined.


Why would u say bad quality? What is your motive when every negative fact about Chinese. Call yourself brother! Maybe u shall continue lick the American if u are so negative with Chinese?

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## Shotgunner51

VelocuR said:


> Brother, first of all I am Pakistani. I am just asking question. Submarines are dangerous games to make sure we get best qualities such as France, Russia, USA, etc.
> 
> Hope you know India is far ahead of their superior Navy than Pakistan's* zero *warships/submarines combined.



Take it easy brother, I don't think @Beast is being offensive, he is probably just baffled by the ignorance of other posters. You are of few anti-China and west-centric Pakistani poster, well that doesn't change the friendship between us and other Pakistani bros.

Back to topic about subs, US doesn't make conventional sub, so they are not in the game. French/German/Korean subs are small ones, say 1500-2000 tonnes bracket, so also not in the league. *PN needs big sub* as long-range firepower projection platform, not small sub which has very limited scope of applications. These are small subs:

Type 214 submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Chang Bogo-class submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Type 209 submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Scorpène-class submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia​
About the big subs, i.e. 3500+ tonnes. Russian Kilo is very good, has been used by PLAN for many years, CSIC has enough experience on Kilo to design & build newer subs. PLAN's 039A (3,600 tonnes) is a completely new design vs 039, so often referred as 041. The target is to match *JMSDF's new Soryu-class* ("そうりゅう", 4200 tonnes), which is also the biggest conventional sub in the whole world. So 039A/041 should far exceed Kilo and matches Soryu, other than classified info you may find general specs of the sub on the web.

Kilo-class submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Sōryū-class submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Type 039A submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia​
On *S20*. The MAIN difference between 039A/041 is AIP, which is a standard for 039A/041. Due to the modular design of the sub, it's upto PN to decide whether AIP is included or not, CSIC will deliver at PN's decision, and if AIP is included, then there is *no difference with PLAN's 039A/041*. Moreover, also due to the modular design of the sub, once pump-jet propulsion is ready, it could be retro-fitted in the future.

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## Zarvan

farhan_9909 said:


> As long as they can fire Babur SLCM and each sub to carry atleast 8 of them,i don't care about anything else
> 
> Just imagine Babur SLCM on 8 submarines


Just imagine all of them being fired and hitting enemy deep inside his territory.

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## Windjammer



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## Tipu7

Stealth said:


> neva


You mean to say navy or never??


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## VelocuR

Beast said:


> Why would u say bad quality? What is your motive when every negative fact about Chinese. Call yourself brother! Maybe u shall continue lick the American if u are so negative with Chinese?



Sorry, that's why you get confused. I removed it.

Actually I am very Pro-China staunch supporter.



Shotgunner51 said:


> Take it easy brother, I don't think @Beast is being offensive, he is probably just baffled by the ignorance of other posters. You are of few anti-China and west-centric Pakistani poster, well that doesn't change the friendship between us and other Pakistani bros.
> 
> Back to topic about subs, US doesn't make conventional sub, so they are not in the game. French/German/Korean subs are small ones, say 1500-2000 tonnes bracket, so also not in the league. *PN needs big sub* as long-range firepower projection platform, not small sub which has very limited scope of applications.
> 
> Type 214 submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Chang Bogo-class submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Type 209 submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Scorpène-class submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia​
> About the big subs. Russian Kilo is very good, has been used by PLAN for many years, CSIC has enough experience on Kilo to design & build newer subs. PLAN's 039A (3,600 tonnes) is a completely new design vs 039, so often referred as 041. The target is to match *JMSDF's new Soryu-class* ("そうりゅう", 4200 tonnes), which is also the biggest conventional sub in the whole world. So 039A/041 should far exceed Kilo and matches Soryu, other than classified info you may find general specs of the sub on the web.
> 
> Kilo-class submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Sōryū-class submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Type 039A submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia​
> On *S20*. The ONLY difference between 039A/041 is AIP, which is a standard for 039A/041. Due to the modular design of the sub, it's upto PN to decide whether AIP is included or not, CSIC will deliver at PN's decision, and if AIP is included, then there is *no difference with PLAN's 039A/041*. Moreover, also due to the modular design of the sub, once jet-pump propulsion is ready, it could be retro-fitted in the future.



Thanks brother. Don't mean to be anti-China or west-centric Pakistani you assume me. 

Just thought Pakistan doesn't go ahead with MBT-3000 tank. No clue why. See #13 my response.



@Shotgunner51 , Thailand choose S-26T or S-26 but now under US pressure to hold the deal. What's major difference from S-20?

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## Arsalan

Shotgunner51 said:


> About the big subs. Russian Kilo is very good, has been used by PLAN for many years, CSIC has enough experience on Kilo to design & build newer subs. PLAN's 039A (3,600 tonnes) is a completely new design vs 039, so often referred as 041. _*The target is to match JMSDF's new Soryu-class ("そうりゅう", 4200 tonnes), which is also the biggest conventional sub in the whole world.*_ So 039A/041 should far exceed Kilo and matches Soryu, other than classified info you may find general specs of the sub on the web.


Largest?
Isnt QING class submarine much bigger then Soryu at reportedly 6500+ ton (submerged) ?

I hope if PN goes for Chinese submarines they go for bigger submarine and make sure we get the with AIP from the start rather then option of fitting AIP later (similar deal is Augusta didn't went exceptionally well is suppose) and also do evaluate the AIP and conventional propulsion system properly. Subs are meant to be SILENT!
S-20 submarine, i am not very sure about how good they can/will be for us. Would have preferred some better submarines (may be i am not aware of the actual specs, specially AIP we will get on S-20) even if it was in smaller numbers. 
I hope PN have evaluated it and are going for the best option available.


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## Shotgunner51

VelocuR said:


> Sorry, that's why you get confused. I removed it.
> 
> Actually I am very Pro-China staunch supporter.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks brother. Don't mean to be anti-China or west-centric Pakistani you assume me.
> 
> Just thought Pakistan doesn't go ahead with MBT-3000 tank. No clue why.



My bad, all Pakistani bros are naturally friends!

Considering China's position in global machine tools, large CNC machines, etc., CSIC has a powerful and advanced supply chain that should assure 039A/041-class to match the biggest conventional sub in the world Soryu-class (4200 tonnes, more advanced than Oyashio-class), and exceed the good but relatively old design Kilo-class.

S-20 with AIP is same as heavy sub 039A/041, with future room of retro-fitting latest tech. PN with eight 3600 tonnes SSK (or 6 if the other 2 are SSN) could possess a formidable firepower projection capability.





Arsalan said:


> Largest?
> Isnt QING class submarine much bigger then Soryu at reportedly 6500+ ton (submerged) ?
> 
> I hope if PN goes for Chinese submarines they go for bigger submarine and make sure we get the with AIP from the start rather then option of fitting AIP later (similar deal is Augusta didn't went exceptionally well is suppose) and also do evaluate the AIP and conventional propulsion system properly. Subs are meant to be SILENT!



032 Qing-class has only one ship built, pennant number 201, roughly 7000 tonnes. Yes it is the biggest conventional sub in the world but not a combatant, it is a testbed for SLCM or SLBM.

AIP is PN's choice, it's a 3600 tonnes modular design sub so fitting is no problem. CSIC will just deliver what PN wants. Yes, I believe PN will buy AIP, unless they want to go direct to jet-pump propulsion and wait.

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## Arsalan

Shotgunner51 said:


> My bad, all Pakistani bros are naturally friends!
> 
> Considering China's position in global machine tools, large CNC machines, etc., CSIC has a powerful and advanced supply chain that should assure 039A/041-class to match the biggest conventional sub in the world Soryu-class (4200 tonnes, more advanced than Oyashio-class), and exceed the good but relatively old design Kilo-class.
> 
> S-20 with AIP is same as heavy sub 039A/041, with future room of retro-fitting latest tech. PN with eight 3600 tonnes SSK (or 6 if the other 2 are SSN) could possess a formidable firepower projection capability.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 032 Qing-class has only one ship built, pennant number 201, roughly 7000 tonnes. Yes it is the biggest conventional sub in the world but not a combatant, it is a testbed for SLCM or SLBM.


Oky so you are talking about actual operation ships, fair enough!

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## Blue Marlin

befor creating this thread i contacted a few people to find out more regarding what's happening.

i contacted some one from defence news in pakistan now this is what he has to say. if you are interested.


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## Imran Khan

Pulsar said:


> $5 billion? That's Rs 50,000 crores PKR!  Pakistan seems to be rolling in cash, having a lot of surplus funds.....or is it a gift from the Chinese?
> 
> But next year is payback time for the billions of dollars in IMF/ADB loans - $7 billion to the IMF and $10 billion to the ADB! Where's the money gonna come from? (Nawaz doesn't even pay taxes!! )
> 
> Just saying. Not my business though!


Pakistan set to have highest level of forex reserves - thenews.com.pk


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## Blue Marlin

Zarvan said:


> Just imagine all of them being fired and hitting enemy deep inside his territory.


just being curious here, who's enemy?


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Mark Sien said:


> $4-5bn was a figure floated by some undisclosed source by Financial Times, it hasn't actually been confirmed if that is the actual amount PN will pay for the submarines. Either the actual amount is lower (around $1.5bn) or the $5bn package includes more than submarines, e.g. frigates, fast attack boats and/or corvettes.
> 
> Pakistan could probably free up some money from not fighting in the Tribal Areas next year as well, so peace with Afghanistan and settling whatever issues people have along that border at the negotiating table might help.



The approval was for $4 billion that includes aprox 300 million for New ATR-72 and upgrades.

Pakistan To Buy 8 Submarines From China


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## Pulsar

Imran Khan said:


> Pakistan set to have highest level of forex reserves - thenews.com.pk


Pakistan will have foreign exchange reserves of just $18.29 billion by June 30, 2015. What are your liabilities including sovereign and commercial debt? Have you thought of that?

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## Blue Marlin

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> The approval was for $4 billion that includes aprox 300 million for New ATR-72 and upgrades.
> 
> Pakistan To Buy 8 Submarines From China


that article is old. $4 billlion means about $500 million unit cost thats cheap as inida is paying $763 million dollars approx for the scorpene submarines. 

i think it will be around 550 million dollars as would would include tot (most likely)
and include optional extras that the s20 does not some with as standard i.e. a Stirling aip engine


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Arsalan said:


> Largest?
> Isnt QING class submarine much bigger then Soryu at reportedly 6500+ ton (submerged) ?
> 
> I hope if PN goes for Chinese submarines they go for bigger submarine and make sure we get the with AIP from the start rather then option of fitting AIP later (similar deal is Augusta didn't went exceptionally well is suppose) and also do evaluate the AIP and conventional propulsion system properly. Subs are meant to be SILENT!
> S-20 submarine, i am not very sure about how good they can/will be for us. Would have preferred some better submarines (may be i am not aware of the actual specs, specially AIP we will get on S-20) even if it was in smaller numbers.
> I hope PN have evaluated it and are going for the best option available.



Sir, You might have come across an article where it was reported that the Chinese subs surprised the US Aircraft Carrier when it surfaced very close. That sub was reported to be Song Class... In the same article there was also reports of the type of engine and AIP were German.

The uninvited guest: Chinese sub pops up in middle of U.S. Navy exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced | Daily Mail Online



blue marlin said:


> befor creating this thread i contacted a few people to find out more regarding what's happening.
> 
> i contacted some one from defence news in pakistan now this is what he has to say. if you are interested.
> 
> View attachment 240398



There is indeed a requirement and if you do go trough PDF Pakistan Navy section you would find that this has already been discussed over and over. There were reports that Pakistan is also reconsidering western subs. But this was negated by the senior members with an argument stating Chinese Subs + the existing Agosta's would be very close to the figure of 14.


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## knight11

Hmn. It was obvious that PN would increase its underwater capabilities more than the surface ship to match IN.
I think Indian Navy too was aware of that too thats why they are increasing the antisubmarine capabilities and sams like barak 1 and barak 8 in recent years


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## Shotgunner51

Arsalan said:


> Oky so you are talking about actual operation ships, fair enough!



Cool bro ... 

One 039A/041 is like twice the tonnage of small sub like 214 or Scorpene, thats a heavy combatant.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

blue marlin said:


> that article is old. $4 billlion means about $500 million unit cost thats cheap as inida is paying $763 million dollars approx for the scorpene submarines.
> 
> i think it will be around 550 million dollars as would would include tot (most likely)
> and include optional extras that the s20 does not some with as standard i.e. a Stirling aip engine


Are you serious...Article is dated April 3, 2015...That is not even 3 months old.

If you consider the price payed by Greece for the U-214's that was aprox $375-425mil per boat. Then the price tag of Chinese boats would not be higher. One of the senior members also quoted some thing like $450 mil was the price of U-214 but Pakistan never went ahead with the deal. 

Do not think S-20 would have such a hefty price tag...If that is true then in present day U-214 would have been selected because that would be some where around $600 - 675 mil per boat.


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## Blue Marlin

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Sir, You might have come across an article where it was reported that the Chinese subs surprised the US Aircraft Carrier when it surfaced very close. That sub was reported to be Song Class... In the same article there was also reports of the type of engine and AIP and a further deal for more. These were German engines and AIP.
> 
> The uninvited guest: Chinese sub pops up in middle of U.S. Navy exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced | Daily Mail Online
> 
> 
> 
> There is indeed a requirement and if you do go trough PDF Pakistan Navy section you would find that this has already been discussed over and over. There were reports that Pakistan is also reconsidering western subs. But this was negated by the senior members with an argument stating Chinese Subs + the existing Agosta's would be very close to the figure of 14.



where exactly are these western (european) submarines going to come from. 

France: forget it. marlin was proposed but rejected
Germany: no as they are proposing 6 type 214 to india (possibly in the future with turkish ship yards)
spain: possibility in future as it being proposed for indian project 75I
Sweden: possibility in future as it being proposed for indian project 75I

from what i know pn does have a requirement of 14 ignoring the agusta70 (will be decommissioned )
so 8+3=11 that leaves 3 remaining


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## Bratva

Deal of this magnitude doesn't include only subs.

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## Zarvan

Bratva said:


> Deal of this magnitude doesn't include only subs.


What do you mean ?


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## Arsalan

Shotgunner51 said:


> Cool bro ...
> 
> One 039A/041 is like twice the tonnage of small sub like 214 or Scorpene, thats a heavy combatant.



It sure is, i hope it turns out to be as silent as U-214 or any other comparable system. Bigger is better for PN as it will increase the chances of land attack capability but for submarines stealth is the main thing. I hope these Chinese submarines are comparable in that field to western submarines. Then it will be weapon package. I know the land attack and anti-ship missiles that we can get with Chinese subs are on par with any other system, not so sure about torpedoes however, have not read a lot about them so may be this is the reason.


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## Donatello

Viper0011. said:


> Pakistan as of today, has over $ 18 billion in cash in her savings account. By 2018 per the IMF, Bloomberg and other financial house's estimates, the savings account would've crossed 22 billion USD. By 2020, Pakistan (at the current pace), should have 25 - 28 billion USD saved up. This is AFTER the budget and needs and all.
> 
> I am sorry, $ 8 billion for a deal over eight - ten years means $ 1 billion per year. I think Pakistan can easily afford that. The Pakistan you used to know till 2013, isn't the Pakistan you are dealing with today. By 2025, Pakistan will be between the top 16-18 economies!!!! By 2020, their defense budget would equal that of Turkey (around $ 16-18 billion).
> 
> As far as the debt goes, US had borrowed over a trillion from China during the financial crises. What happened? The US stock market is at its highest in the history right now. That trillion can be returned very quickly if need be.
> 
> Similarly, Pakistan is growing, more investments and money is coming. It's paying its loans and debts responsibly and its credit rating and borrowing power had been on the rise.....what more do you need? There is no risk or worry, so do not worry.
> 
> And btw, NS, IK and all pay JUST as much taxes as the Indian politicians pay....try not to get me started on that. That topic, I've debated on BRK and the results weren't impressive to say the least.
> 
> Don't cry, eat a pie!!



That's not how finances work. You don't just take up your reserves and buy defense equipment. It is a combination of cash payments and longer term loans, sometimes the length of the boat/asset life cycle. Since China might provide loans down to 0.75%, that may come handy. Sometimes it can be a simple 'barter' like Pakistan will charge an x amount of money for berthing rights to Chinese at Karachi/Gwader etc.

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## Arsalan

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Sir, You might have come across an article where it was reported that the Chinese subs surprised the US Aircraft Carrier when it surfaced very close. That sub was reported to be Song Class... In the same article there was also reports of the type of engine and AIP were German.
> 
> The uninvited guest: Chinese sub pops up in middle of U.S. Navy exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced | Daily Mail Online
> 
> 
> 
> There is indeed a requirement and if you do go trough PDF Pakistan Navy section you would find that this has already been discussed over and over. There were reports that Pakistan is also reconsidering western subs. But this was negated by the senior members with an argument stating Chinese Subs + the existing Agosta's would be very close to the figure of 14.


Yeah i have read that article and we had long debates on this incident on this forum. However i do not think that platform procurement will be effected or governed by media articles. There also have been numerous reports/articles claiming the Yuan class to be quite noisy. I hope that have been addressed. Secondly i do hop that we get the submarines ALONG with API and not opt for getting the subs now and fitting some better AIP later as that scheme is not a guarantee for success. We may end up with submarines with no AIP to fit in them. Best approach will be to get the submarines fitted with AIP and then induct them.


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## Areesh

Shotgunner51 said:


> Cool bro ...
> 
> One 039A/041 is like twice the tonnage of small sub like 214 or Scorpene, thats a heavy combatant.



Thanks bro. I have enough confidence on Chinese subs and very happy that Pakistan is going for them. It is one of the biggest military deals of Pakistan in past many years and I am sure that we won't go for something that is simply not worth it.

However it would be better for all members here that you also share something about stealth features of Chinese subs i.e how silent Chinese subs have been traditionally.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

blue marlin said:


> where exactly are these western (european) submarines going to come from.
> 
> France: forget it. marlin was proposed but rejected
> Germany: no as they are proposing 6 type 214 to india (possibly in the future with turkish ship yards)
> spain: possibility in future as it being proposed for indian project 75I
> Sweden: possibility in future as it being proposed for indian project 75I
> 
> from what i know pn does have a requirement of 14 ignoring the agusta70 (will be decommissioned )
> so 8+3=11 that leaves 3 remaining



ITALY U-212 on offer...



Arsalan said:


> Yeah i have read that article and we had long debates on this incident on this forum. However i do not think that platform procurement will be effected or governed by media articles. There also have been numerous reports/articles claiming the Yuan class to be quite noisy. I hope that have been addressed. Secondly i do hop that we get the submarines ALONG with API and not opt for getting the subs now and fitting some better AIP later as that scheme is not a guarantee for success. We may end up with submarines with no AIP to fit in them. Best approach will be to get the submarines fitted with AIP and then induct them.


In 2012-13 the S-20 was offered to Pakistan but it did not have the AIP hence it was rejected...Pakistan wanted the Song class sub but the issue was which AIP would be available as the German's were not interested to sell their system. Now it is still too early to say which AIP is being offered...The other question is also which engine is going to power these subs because Germany might not be willing to give their engines.

One can only hope that these things would have been taken care hence this contract has finally gone through.


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## Blue Marlin

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Are you serious...Article is dated April 3, 2015...That is not even 3 months old.
> 
> If you consider the price payed by Greece for the U-214's that was aprox $375-425mil per boat. Then the price tag of Chinese boats would not be higher. One of the senior members also quoted some thing like $450 mil was the price of U-214 but Pakistan never went ahead with the deal.
> 
> Do not think S-20 would have such a hefty price tag...If that is true then in present day U-214 would have been selected because that would be some where around $600 - 675 mil per boat.



i am very serious' it's old.

Greece did pay around that much for a sub yes. call it $425 million.

pakistan was buying 3 subs for $2 billion thats around $666 million each. cheaper than the indian $763 million scorpene subs. but pakistan wanted tot. this was something Germany was not willing to provide.

the s20 standard thats with out the aip: would cost around $380 million(that number came from a good Chinese source) so i would imagine a revised amount of $400-500 million.

basically the s20 is a type 39a/41 sub with out an aip. that is also has some elements that makes it a modular sub. 
meaning you can add parts of your choice tot he sub.Pakistan will get the aip with the s20 so theoretically you are getting a type 39 sub. or i could be completely wrong and the the naval chief just say's "go with the type 32"
as my pakistani friends say "challo fir teek"



ACE OF THE AIR said:


> ITALY U-212 on offer...
> 
> 
> In 2012-13 the S-20 was offered to Pakistan but it did not have the AIP hence it was rejected...Pakistan wanted the Song class sub but the issue was which AIP would be available as the German's were not interested to sell their system. Now it is still too early to say which AIP is being offered...The other question is also which engine is going to power these subs because Germany might not be willing to give their engines.
> 
> One can only hope that these things would have been taken care hence this contract has finally gone through.


Go Swedish after all they invented aip.
The Stirling Engine


----------



## Pakistanisage

VelocuR said:


> Brother, *first of all I am Pakistani*. I am just asking question. Submarines are dangerous games to make sure we get best qualities such as* France, Russia, USA*, etc.
> 
> Hope you know India is far ahead of their superior Navy than Pakistan's* zero *warships/submarines combined.





Relax, Bro.

The Submarines Pakistan ordered through China are some of the best available anywhere in the World.

As for purchasing from France , they are *NOT* interested in selling Pakistan Squat.

Reason is simple ECONOMICS. They would rather sell their stuff to INDIA which is a much bigger market for them.

France will not sell equipment to Pakistan because they don't want to PI$$ OFF India.

As for USA, they don't make Diesel Electric Submarines.

Please do some research or learn the business before making offensive comments on PDF.



Beast said:


> Jealousy at its best. This sub is even better than latest than Kilo and fitted with AIP.




The latest Chinese Yuan Class Submarines are some of the quietest subs in the World.

Even quieter than Kilo Class Russian Submarines known for their low noise levels.

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## Blue Marlin

Pakistanisage said:


> Relax, Bro.
> 
> The Submarines Pakistan ordered through China are some of the best available anywhere in the World.
> 
> As for purchasing from France , they are *NOT* interested in selling Pakistan Squat.
> 
> Reason is simple ECONOMICS. They would rather sell their stuff to INDIA which is a much bigger market for them.
> 
> France will not sell equipment to Pakistan because they don't want to PI$$ OFF India.
> 
> As for USA, they don't make Diesel Electric Submarines.
> 
> Please do some research or learn the business before making silly comments on PDF.


agreed


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## ACE OF THE AIR

blue marlin said:


> i am very serious' it's old.
> 
> Greece did pay around that much for a sub yes. call it $425 million.
> 
> pakistan was buying 3 subs for $2 billion thats around $666 million each. cheaper than the indian $763 million scorpene subs. but pakistan wanted tot. this was something Germany was not willing to provide.
> 
> the s20 standard thats with out the aip: would cost around $380 million(that number came from a good Chinese source) so i would imagine a revised amount of $400-500 million.
> 
> basically the s20 is a type 39a/41 sub with out an aip. that is also has some elements that makes it a modular sub.
> meaning you can add parts of your choice tot he sub.Pakistan will get the aip with the s20 so theoretically you are getting a type 39 sub. or i could be completely wrong and the the naval chief just say's "go with the type 32"
> as my pakistani friends say "challo fir teek"
> 
> 
> Go Swedish after all they invented aip.
> The Stirling Engine



the deal was 3 + 3 options...hence TOT... However the earthquake and then floods made sure that this deal was shelved.

In my opinion it would be a Type 41 but designated as S-20...Similar to the the Portuguese U-209's. 

There were some rumors going along saying PN has asked for 2 different types hence the other type might be Type 32 with an AIP.... How true it is one can not say till they are reality.

PN is not going to publicly inform which subs are or were being considered...

As you have stated in a earlier post that Germany, France, Spain and Sweden have offered their subs for the Indian project 71 i. Will these also be offered to Pakistan is down to 50% but still they can be offered as well.

India rejected the U-214's for the Scorpane but they do operate the U-209's
The Spanish S-80 is undergoing problems. Though they are similar to the Scorpane. Hence have a reasonable chance. 
Spain's £1.75bn submarine programme is torpedoed after realising near-complete vessel is 70 tonnes too heavy | Daily Mail Online 
£2 billion Spanish navy submarine will sink to bottom of sea - Telegraph

Saab is looking at the IAF MMRCA contract hence they would definitely try to sell India the subs... Unfortunately they would not be very optimistic.



Pakistanisage said:


> Relax, Bro.
> 
> The Submarines Pakistan ordered through China are some of the best available anywhere in the World.
> 
> As for purchasing from France , they are *NOT* interested in selling Pakistan Squat.
> 
> Reason is simple ECONOMICS. They would rather sell their stuff to INDIA which is a much bigger market for them.
> 
> France will not sell equipment to Pakistan because they don't want to PI$$ OFF India.
> 
> As for USA, they don't make Diesel Electric Submarines.
> 
> Please do some research or learn the business before making silly comments on PDF.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The latest Chinese Yuan Class ships are some of the quietest subs in the World.
> 
> Even quieter than Kilo Class Russian Ships known for the low noise levels.



Well said !!


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## Rashid Mahmood

8 Modified Yuan class subs, all with AIP.
(Modified to PN's requirements) and yes they will all be capable to fire "cruise missiles".
Details will not be made public yet.

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## xyxmt

We will make China shine in the defense business.
I hope China wont forget it

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## Great Sachin

Pakistan fast becoming "Made in China"


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## Jaanbaz

Pulsar said:


> $5 billion? That's Rs 50,000 crores PKR!  Pakistan seems to be rolling in cash, having a lot of surplus funds.....or is it a gift from the Chinese?
> 
> But next year is payback time for the billions of dollars in IMF/ADB loans - $7 billion to the IMF and $10 billion to the ADB! Where's the money gonna come from? (Nawaz doesn't even pay taxes!! )
> 
> Just saying. Not my business though!



No worries, no one is taking your pocket money, now go and play with your toy gun. Cheers.

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## princefaisal

*Russia To Provide China With Kalina-Class Submarines *
Source : DefenceWorld.net ~ Dated : Wednesday, March 26, 2014

Russia President Vladimir Putin will reportedly grant China more advanced Kalina-class submarine instead of providing them with older Lada-class submarines.

Earlier last week, the Commander of Russian Navy, Adm. Viktor Chirkov said that the new fifth-generation submarines will be designated as the Kalina class.

"Russia is currently designing a *fifth-generation conventional submarine*, dubbed Project Kalina, which will be fitted with an *air-independent propulsion (AIP) system*," Adm. Viktor Chirkov said."Our industry promises to develop this AIP system by 2017 and build the first boat fitted with such a system by 2018”.


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## xyxmt

blue marlin said:


> where exactly are these western (european) submarines going to come from.
> 
> France: forget it. marlin was proposed but rejected
> Germany: no as they are proposing 6 type 214 to india (possibly in the future with turkish ship yards)
> spain: possibility in future as it being proposed for indian project 75I
> Sweden: possibility in future as it being proposed for indian project 75I
> 
> from what i know pn does have a requirement of 14 ignoring the agusta70 (will be decommissioned )
> so 8+3=11 that leaves 3 remaining



dont you worry my man, in next 10 years they will be begging Pakistan to buy from them...but then it will be too late, Pakistan will be part of Chinese weapon industry, which it already is to a point.

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## Shotgunner51

xyxmt said:


> dont you worry my man, in next 10 years they will be begging Pakistan to buy from them...but then it will be too late, Pakistan will be part of Chinese weapon industry, which it already is to a point.



Different from *small* or even medium *sized navies* (target customers of *1500-1800 tonnes small subs e.g. 209/214*), nuclear-armed PN is going for long range heavy firepower projection (e.g. second strategic strike, e.g. *3600-4200 tonnes 039A/041*/Kilo/Soryu) on top of naval warfare, and hence will develop a fleet of heavy conventional SSK plus large SSN/SSBN.

Surface fleet will also go heavy into destroyers (DDG, 6000+ tonnes) centric.

*The heavy subs operating within maximum range allowed by SLCM they carry will possess best second strategic strike capability by Pakistani command.*

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## dy1022

Thai’s plan of buying Chinese submarines unchanged
July 20, 2015

Thai navy has not changed their plan on the purchase of 3 Chinese submarines, according to Thai media Sing Sian Daily. The total amounts is USD 1.06 billion. Navy Chief Administrator Kraisorn Chansuvanit says that details of this purchase will be revealed to the public. Kraisorn also says that this purchase is significant to their country and that it is well worth of the price.

It is reported earlier that Thai navy’s plan to buy three newly-built submarines from China has been “apparently” put on hold by the military-led government.

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## sonicboom

*But there have been reports that Yuan-class Type-041 diesel-electric submarines were being considered.

The-Type 041 'Yuan' class is described by IHS Jane's Fighting Ships as a diesel electric attack submarine, potentially with stirling air independent propulsion.

Pakistan to Buy 8 Submarines From China: Report
*


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## TOPGUN

This is the news of the day , and a bad day for trolls and haters lolz may GOD bless Pakistan always .

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## Zarvan

asmoha said:


> I don't get this pakistan could spend this money and eradicate the s*** out of the poverty. But they rather spend it on the PN. I know PN is hugely undeveloped but it's not like india is about to attack pakistan anytime soon! tell me if I'm wrong!


You never know better to be prepared than sorry. 
Sorry guys I was wrong rechecked with the friend all 8 are AIP Submarines. Two nuclear will be other than these 8


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## ghazi52

Nice..........................


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## I FLY HIGH

subs.


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## rockstar08

Pulsar said:


> $5 billion? That's Rs 50,000 crores PKR!  Pakistan seems to be rolling in cash, having a lot of surplus funds.....or is it a gift from the Chinese?
> 
> But next year is payback time for the billions of dollars in IMF/ADB loans - $7 billion to the IMF and $10 billion to the ADB! Where's the money gonna come from? (Nawaz doesn't even pay taxes!! )
> 
> Just saying. Not my business though!



No , we sell the Jeehez " of the mother of Modi , you have any problem either we are rolling in cash or what ??


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## Blue Marlin

i have got another development.
i was told that 2 of the 8 sub will be replacing the 2 old agosta-70 whilst the other 6 will be for additional capability.
so it is very likely that all of the submarines are one model (sorry @Zarvan no nuclear submarine)



dy1022 said:


> Thai’s plan of buying Chinese submarines unchanged
> July 20, 2015
> 
> Thai navy has not changed their plan on the purchase of 3 Chinese submarines, according to Thai media Sing Sian Daily. The total amounts is USD 1.06 billion. Navy Chief Administrator Kraisorn Chansuvanit says that details of this purchase will be revealed to the public. Kraisorn also says that this purchase is significant to their country and that it is well worth of the price.
> 
> It is reported earlier that Thai navy’s plan to buy three newly-built submarines from China has been “apparently” put on hold by the military-led government.


So that means if Pakistan and Thailand sign this year you are looking at 11 submarines for export valued around $6 billion. you have done better than you european counterpart's congrats, 

now you need to look for some new markets,
argentina may be looking for some subs as they only have 3 and they are all at least 20 years old. your building ties with them, this should be some extra securing of ties and some Chinese investment.


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## rockstar08

Zarvan said:


> What do you mean ?



he means , that the deal include 1.5 liter Pepsi , and a bowl of Salad


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## Blue Marlin

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> ITALY U-212 on offer...
> 
> 
> In 2012-13 the S-20 was offered to Pakistan but it did not have the AIP hence it was rejected...Pakistan wanted the Song class sub but the issue was which AIP would be available as the German's were not interested to sell their system. Now it is still too early to say which AIP is being offered...The other question is also which engine is going to power these subs because Germany might not be willing to give their engines.
> 
> One can only hope that these things would have been taken care hence this contract has finally gone through.


source of where Italy type 212 on offer?


----------



## Zarvan

blue marlin said:


> i have got another development.
> i was told that 2 of the 8 sub will be replacing the 2 old agosta-70 whilst the other 6 will be for additional capability.
> so it is very likely that all of the submarines are one model (sorry @Zarvan no nuclear submarine)
> 
> 
> So that means if Pakistan and Thailand sign this year you are looking at 11 submarines for export valued around $6 billion. you have done better than you european counterpart's congrats,
> 
> now you need to look for some new markets,
> argentina may be looking for some subs as they only have 3 and they are all at least 20 years old. your building ties with them, this should be some extra securing of ties and some Chinese investment.


Yes two nuclear will be other then these 8 submarines they are hiding about two nuclear submarines


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## Blue Marlin

Zarvan said:


> Yes two nuclear will be other then these 8 submarines they are hiding about two nuclear submarines


so what you r are trying to say is 8 conventional and 2 hidden nuclear subs.? how are you going to hide two 8000+ tonne nuclear subs?


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## Zarvan

blue marlin said:


> so what you r are trying to say is 8 conventional and 2 hidden nuclear subs.? how are you going to hide two 8000+ tonne nuclear subs?


I mean until they are about to arrive


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## Blue Marlin

Zarvan said:


> I mean until they are about to arrive


so 6 conventional 2 nuclear? i spoke via email to some one called usman who an analyst based in Karachi.
and this is what he had to say. He does some articles for some defence news sites.


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## Zarvan

blue marlin said:


> so 6 conventional 2 nuclear? i spoke via email to some one called usman who an analyst based in Karachi.
> and this is what he had to say. He does some articles for some defence news sites.
> 
> View attachment 240496


Yes these 8 are AIP submarines which are announced but two more nuclear will also come they are not announced


----------



## Blue Marlin

Zarvan said:


> Yes these 8 are AIP submarines which are announced but two more nuclear will also come they are not announced


ok give it 5 years minimum. i dont think ormara or pasni is large enough for nuclear subs nuclear subs need more attention than conventional subs


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## dy1022

PLAN's 039C AIP , look at the shape and building quality,not too bad, right?

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## Peaceful Civilian

razgriz19 said:


> S20 probably
> And hopefully with AIP


The difference between S20 and orignal Type 039A is that the AIP system of type 39A is removed.
So, we need to spend extra money for AIP. They will integrate it if we need this system.


----------



## dy1022

Peaceful Civilian said:


> The difference between S20 and orignal Type 039A is that the AIP system of type 39A is removed.
> 
> 
> 
> Should be S26P, even S26T(downgrade version for Thailand) has AIP!
Click to expand...


----------



## salarsikander

Peaceful Civilian said:


> The difference between S20 and orignal Type 039A is that the AIP system of type 39A is removed.



Hi, 

Is that the one we are getting?

without AIP? 
If so, is there any possibility to use our own TOt from Augusta to retrofit these submarines.

What do you think ?


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## root

Great


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## Peaceful Civilian

You didn't get my Point. AIP system is optional!


----------



## xyxmt

For Indians who are worried about Poverty in Pakistan and why Pakistan is buying defense equipment, should read this

*DESTITUTION KEY FINDINGS*
•Across these 49 countries half of MPI poor people are Destitute
• India is home to 343.5 million destitute people – 28.5%
of its population is destitute. And overall in South Asia,
over420 Million People are destitute.
•In Niger 68% of its population is Destitute, the highest share of any country. 
In Ethiopia this figure is 58.1%, and in Burkina Faso its 57.5%

http://www.ophi.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/Global-MPI-2014-an-overview.pdf?0a8fd7

no where in this report it mentions Pakistan, India is listed among the poorest of the poor African countries. 
note half of the poor are destitute which is 28.5% for India which mean 57% Indians are blow poverty.

So please worry about your country, dont pretend to be rich....just doesnt sound right coming from Indians.

Another hard fact for Indians, goto any charity meal in Pakistan and you will find Qourma and Biryani.

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## Peaceful Civilian

salarsikander said:


> Hi,
> 
> Is that the one we are getting?
> 
> without AIP?


AIP system is not integrated in S20, but it is optional & available according to customer demand. S20 is export version of orignal Type 039

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## Shotgunner51

blue marlin said:


> source of where Italy type 212 on offer?



Italy doesn't make sub any more after the Sauro-class was completed in last century. Type 209, 212, 214 were all German subs, ~1800 tonnes level.



Peaceful Civilian said:


> You didn't get my Point. AIP system is optional!



Yes you are right, that's the point, AIP is optional for modular-designed S20, i.e. it's entirely upto PN to decide, If PN takes AIP, then it's the same as PLAN's 3600 tonnes 039A/041 in active service.

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## shaheenmissile

Does the submarine have any vertical launch system?


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## Penguin

Shotgunner51 said:


> Italy doesn't make sub any more after the Sauro-class was completed in last century. Type 209, 212, 214 were all German subs, ~1800 tonnes level.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes you are right, that's the point, AIP is optional for modular-designed S20, i.e. it's entirely upto PN to decide, If PN takes AIP, then it's the same as PLAN's 3600 tonnes 039A/041 in active service.


Yes they do, they licence build 212A, which was developed together with Germany. Fincantieri also still offers S1000 together with Russia's Rubin.

Costruzioni=



shaheenmissile said:


> Does the submarine have any vertical launch system?


No


----------



## Peaceful Civilian

Shotgunner51 said:


> Italy doesn't make sub any more after the Sauro-class was completed in last century. Type 209, 212, 214 were all German subs, ~1800 tonnes level.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes you are right, that's the point, AIP is optional for modular-designed S20, i.e. it's entirely upto PN to decide, If PN takes AIP, then it's the same as PLAN's 3600 tonnes 039A/041 in active service.


They revealed S20 in IDEX- 2013 in UAE exhibition. This is a model.





























According to the information that CSOC revealed new S20 submarine length - 66 meters, width - 8 meters and height - 8.2 meters. *The amount of water stretch of the 1,850 tonne ship as well and 2,300 tons when submerged. The submarine capable of reaching speeds up to 18 knots and a range of 8,000 miles at a speed of 16 knots. The crew consists of 38 people of S20. The ship can operate continuously for a period of 60 days*.

S20 submarine can dive to depths of 300 meters. Unlike the project 041 submarines for the Navy closed China, S20 will not be equipped with air propulsion independent AIP, although it can be ordered separately.

Chinese submarines equipped with sonar sensors with variable frequency, sonar systems and new noise measurement system. S-20 is equipped with weapon systems including torpedoes and anti-ship missiles. CSOC not revealing details of the weapons will be equipped for this new class of submarines, but more likely it will be equipped with similar weapons Yuan class submarines Project 041.

Trung Quốc "trình làng" tàu ngầm diesel – điện thế hệ mới S20 | Quân sự | soha.vn

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## Viper0011.

Great Sachin said:


> Pakistan fast becoming "Made in China"



There is nothing wrong in that. India was and still is "Made In Russia" and then now a days "Made in USA".....so what's the point? The beauty is, India has been spending hundreds of millions for a long time starting from older platforms to build in house. 

With Pakistan, who started like 15 years ago with JFT's and Missiles and now ships and subs, they are actually producing working artifacts slightly below the current Western standards. So their industry isn't getting trained on legacy crap like Mig 21 and 29's, they are starting from the 4th gen in terms of jets, avionics and now at current standards for subs, etc. The little gap the Chinese have, will be filled soon. Remember, Pakistan is a defensive force primarily India specific......so having internal capability to build all these expensive stuff is remarkable. 

Plus, as Pakistan's economy grows, she'll be able to get whatever systems she'll need from the West, to take these subs or other equipment to whatever standards they desire. The world has already started to treat Pakistan and India separately in terms of business as the world knows Pakistan provides the 6th largest future economy and related profits for them. So they can't ignore it or jeopardize their relations because India gets upset. The US, Russia, China, the UK, etc, all major countries have their respective military dealings with Pakistan going on, which will strengthen even more as more investments and business expand from these countries to inside Pakistan. So this is all good stuff for Pakistan and its going to help them be self sufficient and save many billions they currently spend outside, and build internal capability to even sell stuff to others in the future (like the JFT has already started down this path).

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## Shotgunner51

shaheenmissile said:


> Does the submarine have any vertical launch system?



VLS can't normally be fit to sub of this tonnage, so SLCM shall be tube launched. However, there was report that PLAN did test launch HN2000 SLCM with VLS on one 039A, that could be a testbed, to be confirmed.

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## untitled

Shotgunner51 said:


> .......... Yes, I believe PN will buy AIP, unless they want to go direct to jet-pump propulsion and wait.



Are you saying that the Chinese have something similar to the caterpillar tread from hunt for red October?


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## Cool_Soldier

According to some Media News today, First Submarine will be available by 2018 to PN. an so on......... till 8 -S20


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## Shotgunner51

persona_non_grata said:


> Are you saying that the Chinese have something similar to the caterpillar tread from hunt for red October?



The system it is under development/testing, and will be part of the whole development project of 093G (i.e. upgrade of existing 093-class in active duty)






This is schematic of current 093-class SSN in service:






In the long run, PLAN's direction is going towards SSN/SSBN. In the immediate future, a fleet of conventional subs will still be maintained for gradual transition of naval assets, as well as to keep the industry running (SSN/SSBN cannot be exported as per NPT). An alternative is to transfer part of the conventional sub industry to Pakistan or another allied country.

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## Blue Marlin

Shotgunner51 said:


> Italy doesn't make sub any more after the Sauro-class was completed in last century. Type 209, 212, 214 were all German subs, ~1800 tonnes level.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes you are right, that's the point, AIP is optional for modular-designed S20, i.e. it's entirely upto PN to decide, If PN takes AIP, then it's the same as PLAN's 3600 tonnes 039A/041 in active service.



italy does make submarines they just launched they last type 212 the "Romeo Romei" at the muggiano ship yard which is operated by Fincantieri. 

also it is confirmed that pakistan is buying the s20 as their defence minister confirmed the news only an hour ago.
Khawaja Asif | Facebook

what the difference between the type 39a and the type 39c?



Viper0011. said:


> There is nothing wrong in that. India was and still is "Made In Russia" and then now a days "Made in USA".....so what's the point? The beauty is, India has been spending hundreds of millions for a long time starting from older platforms to build in house.
> 
> With Pakistan, who started like 15 years ago with JFT's and Missiles and now ships and subs, they are actually producing working artifacts slightly below the current Western standards. So their industry isn't getting trained on legacy crap like Mig 21 and 29's, they are starting from the 4th gen in terms of jets, avionics and now at current standards for subs, etc. The little gap the Chinese have, will be filled soon. Remember, Pakistan is a defensive force primarily India specific......so having internal capability to build all these expensive stuff is remarkable.
> 
> Plus, as Pakistan's economy grows, she'll be able to get whatever systems she'll need from the West, to take these subs or other equipment to whatever standards they desire. The world has already started to treat Pakistan and India separately in terms of business as the world knows Pakistan provides the 6th largest future economy and related profits for them. So they can't ignore it or jeopardize their relations because India gets upset. The US, Russia, China, the UK, etc, all major countries have their respective military dealings with Pakistan going on, which will strengthen even more as more investments and business expand from these countries to inside Pakistan. So this is all good stuff for Pakistan and its going to help them be self sufficient and save many billions they currently spend outside, and build internal capability to even sell stuff to others in the future (like the JFT has already started down this path).


i dont think you are an American.

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## Cool_Soldier

S-20 is a PN customized version of Yuan 039C.


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## Blue Marlin

Shotgunner51 said:


> The system it is under development/testing, and will be part of the whole development project of 093G (i.e. upgrade of existing 093-class in active duty)
> 
> View attachment 240518
> 
> 
> This is schematic of current 093-class SSN in service:
> 
> View attachment 240521
> 
> 
> In the long run, PLAN's direction is going towards SSN/SSBN. In the immediate future, a fleet of conventional subs will still be maintained for gradual transition of naval assets, as well as to keep the industry running (SSN/SSBN cannot be exported as per NPT). An alternative is to transfer part of the conventional sub industry to Pakistan or another allied country.


does china have it own indigenous aip module if so what is the power output?


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## MilSpec

blue marlin said:


> just being curious here, who's enemy?


the same against whom the entire defence policy of pakistan is crafted. - Minimum Deterrence


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## sathya

Hi ,
does Pakistan need 8 new subs?
why not order 4 S 20 now and a decade later another 4 probably S 40 or something?
you already have 3 agostas ..
once 8 subs are delivered are you not going to buy new one for 2- 3 decades ?


whatever may be .. this is huge for Pakistan Navy.

Asian navies are in race for under sea weapons?


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## farhan_9909

Reliable Info

*Total cost of the deal is 2.6Billion dollars
*Include AIP

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## Shotgunner51

blue marlin said:


> italy does make submarines they just launched they last type 212 the "Romeo Romei" at the muggiano ship yard which is operated by Fincantieri.



Yes, I missed that and assume Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft made all the 212's, they did license Fincantieri to build for Marina Militare.



blue marlin said:


> also it is confirmed that pakistan is buying the s20 as their defence minister confirmed the news only an hour ago.
> Khawaja Asif | Facebook
> what the difference between the type 39a and the type 39c?



The major advancement of 039C would be *modified hull* (diameter 9 meter single hull, by using new materials/steel tech breakthroughs), plus some minor improvement in various sub-systems.

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## MilSpec

blue marlin said:


> i
> i dont think you are an American.

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## Blue Marlin

MilSpec said:


> the same against whom the entire defence policy of pakistan is crafted. - Minimum Deterrence


ohhh india. how many subs have they got at the western command? if you can specify they type please because i have no idea what subs they got there


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## sathya

farhan_9909 said:


> Reliable Info
> 
> *Total cost of the deal is 2.6Billion dollars
> *Include AIP



 

weapons?


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## Viper0011.

blue marlin said:


> *i dont think you are an American*.



Ok...... how about you try to sound a bit more smarter in your posts and come back with some freaking common sense based logic? Or don't respond is you don't have the facts to counter a fact based post? And PLEASE, let me worry about my nationality and focus on providing facts vs. diverting the discussion to the Tarzan or the Alien ship.

It tells the readers the level of your IQ when you argue with someone, can't counter their post and start talking about their race, culture, nationality, religion or their video games!!! It seems like that's what the Indian member do, when a post has facts and it doesn't serve your purpose of spreading propaganda about your Indian supremacy (or lack of it), you guys turn utter idiots and start bringing up stuff that has 0 relevance to the topic!

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## Paranoid Android

That's hell of of a shopping if news is true..Any info on the induction of first sub?


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## Blue Marlin

Viper0011. said:


> Ok...... how about you try to sound a bit more smarter in your posts and come back with some freaking common sense based logic? Or don't respond is you don't have the facts to counter a fact based post? And PLEASE, let me worry about my nationality. I know what I present to immigrations worldwide when I travel!!!


so why do you refer to Pakistan as she.



Shotgunner51 said:


> Yes, I missed that and assume Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft made all the 212's, they did license Fincantieri to build for Marina Militare.
> 
> 
> 
> The major advancement of 039C would be *modified hull* (diameter 9 meter single hull, by using new materials/steel tech breakthroughs), plus some minor improvement in various sub-systems.


does china have it's own AIP module or do they import them, if they import them which aip do they use?



sathya said:


> weapons?


it will contain Pakistani fire and controls systems and will most likely(guaranteed) to feature a Babur slcm

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## Viper0011.

blue marlin said:


> *so why do you refer to Pakistan as she.*



How long ago did you learn English? Now based on your two stupid posts, I am about to get offensive as I've tried to tell you to not waste time and use your brain with some logic if you have facts to respond to my posts.

May be in South Indian English and associated Break-Stop accent with the funny Head-shake, you don't call a country "SHE", but in the remainder of the world, a country is referred to as "she". You know that. Unless you call India "HE" lol.

@Horus @Oscar : gentlemen - could you please check out the posts written by the gentlemen above? I am not sure if I am supposed to teach fifth grade English while we talk about military strategy and facts on this thread.

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## Shotgunner51

blue marlin said:


> does china have it own indigenous aip module if so what is the power output?




Sure, the ones used is a SE-AIP (Stirling engine) developed by *Institute 711 of CSIC* (中船重工), there are two models now, 160kW and 217 kW. Each 039A/B/C are installed with 4 units, i.e. each sub will have 640-868kW.

I am not sure whether other institutes are developing CCD-AIP (Closed Cycle Diesel) or FC-AIP (Fuel Cell).

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## Blue Marlin

Viper0011. said:


> How long ago did you learn English? Now based on your two stupid posts, I am about to get offensive as I've tried to tell you to not waste time and use your brain with some logic if you have facts to respond to my posts.
> 
> May be in South Indian English and associated Break-Stop accent with the funny Head-shake, you don't call a country "SHE", but in the remainder of the world, a country is referred to as "she". You know that. Unless you call India "HE" lol.
> 
> @Horus @Oscar : gentlemen - could you please check out the posts written by the gentlemen above? I am not sure if I am supposed to teach fifth grade English while we talk about military strategy and facts on this thread.


i live in England, more specifically in the north west of England. i have dyslexia. hence the bad english.
i talk more of my origin than any thing else. yesterday i was Moroccan and the day before indian and the day before that Pakistani.
whilst you are calling upon admin ask them to check of my origin. then that will show you. did i hurt your feelings?

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## Cool_Soldier

Sub will be inducted in 2018.


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## Blue Marlin

Shotgunner51 said:


> Yes, the ones used is a SE-AIP (Stirling engine) developed by Institute 711 of CSIC (中船重工), there are two models now, 160kW and 217 kW. Each 039A/B/C are installed with 4 units, i.e. each sub will have 640-868kW.
> 
> I am not sure whether other institutes are developing CCD-AIP or FC-AIP.


what type, mesma, fuel cell, or Stirling?


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## Cool_Soldier

Abhijeet Sarkar said:


> That's hell of of a shopping if news is true..Any info on the induction of first sub?


Induction is by 2018

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## Blue Marlin

Cool_Soldier said:


> Sub will be inducted in 2018.


source?


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## Paranoid Android

Viper0011. said:


> How long ago did you learn English? Now based on your two stupid posts, I am about to get offensive as I've tried to tell you to not waste time and use your brain with some logic if you have facts to respond to my posts.
> 
> May be in South Indian English and associated Break-Stop accent with the funny Head-shake, you don't call a country "SHE", but in the remainder of the world, a country is referred to as "she". You know that. Unless you call India "HE" lol.
> 
> @Horus @Oscar : gentlemen - could you please check out the posts written by the gentlemen above? I am not sure if I am supposed to teach fifth grade English while we talk about military strategy and facts on this thread.


Calm down!We are not Einstein here.Don't be an egotist..

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## Djinn

blue marlin said:


> so why do you refer to Pakistan as she.


Countries are referred to as SHE, However if you read articles and books of mature authors they use IT. I raised this question once with my teacher, who happens to have PhD in International Relations and this is what i was told that the word SHE doesn't sound appropriate, thou it is not incorrect, but IT sounds much better.


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## Blue Marlin

Djinn said:


> Countries are referred to as SHE, However if you read articles and books of mature authors they use IT. I raised this question once with my teacher, who happens to have PhD in International Relations and this is what i was told that the word SHE doesn't sound appropriate, thou it is not incorrect, but IT sounds much better.


i find the the word she as portraying the country as a person. thats something don't like i prefer to call countries by their name. not as she.

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## Mrc

I think the amount of issues we have and will create for tge world, pakistan shud be officially refered to as HE...


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## Cool_Soldier

blue marlin said:


> source?


Today AJJ News channel broke his news.

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## Djinn

blue marlin said:


> i find the the word she as portraying the country as a person. thats something don't like i prefer to call countries by their name. not as she.


True! i myself don't like to use SHE for a country.

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## Blue Marlin

Djinn said:


> True! i myself don't like to use SHE for a country.


well that some thing i agree on


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## Penguin

Shotgunner51 said:


> VLS can't normally be fit to sub of this tonnage, so SLCM shall be tube launched. However, there was report that PLAN did test launch HN2000 SLCM with VLS on one 039A, that could be a testbed, to be confirmed.


The Russian _Amur_-950 is armed with a VLS missile system. Tonnage is not a determinant.

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## Shotgunner51

Penguin said:


> The Russian _Amur_-950 is armed with a VLS missile system. Tonnage is not a determinant.





VLS in such a small sub, 7.1 mt diameter hull, well that's a very small VLS but not bad at all.

A 8-cell VLS (empty) only weights 13-16 tonnes, so tonnage is not a direct determinant but sub dimension definitely is, which is then related to tonnage. For such a small sub, might be adequate for self-defense version of VLS, hardly for tactical version, sure not for strike version. 

How many inducted? In which navies?


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## kshaib

*MOST IMPOIRTANT TO BUY S-20*


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## My-Analogous

Pulsar said:


> Pakistan will have foreign exchange reserves of just $18.29 billion by June 30, 2015. What are your liabilities including sovereign and commercial debt? Have you thought of that?


Don't worry, we can take care of our country and if you have a problem then give us gift of 8 Billion dollar. If not then its not your business

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## Blue Marlin

so when do when do you think you will take delivery of the first one?

and when will they do a test of the slcm?

also isn't Pakistan building a construction facility at ormara or is that only just a naval base ?

also the wantchintimes report was correct in saying that kesw was preparing to build the subs. 
but it will take time, after 2018 as both berths are occupied at Karachi


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## ziaulislam

Pulsar said:


> $5 billion? That's Rs 50,000 crores PKR!  Pakistan seems to be rolling in cash, having a lot of surplus funds.....or is it a gift from the Chinese?
> 
> But next year is payback time for the billions of dollars in IMF/ADB loans - $7 billion to the IMF and $10 billion to the ADB! Where's the money gonna come from? (Nawaz doesn't even pay taxes!! )
> 
> Just saying. Not my business though!


with 10 billlion dollar defence budget with 27% for equipment buying i.e 2.7 billion dollars, even if budget doesnt increase much we still can afford to pay 5 billion over period of 10-15 years.. the time / life span of the deal!

the actual deal is around 2 billion dollars max, otherwise we would have gone for german ones

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## Viper0011.

Abhijeet Sarkar said:


> Calm down!We are not Einstein here.Don't be an egotist..



No one's being egoistic. When you guys act jingoistic and act silly, these things will come up. Act mature and debate more!


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## DESERT FIGHTER

8 S-20 AIP's + 3 Agosta 90Bs with MESMA AIPs... + 2-3 upgraded 70s? That's 13+ subs... The original armed forces modernisation plan 2019 was to get 14 Subs...


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## fatman17

Pulsar said:


> $5 billion? That's Rs 50,000 crores PKR!  Pakistan seems to be rolling in cash, having a lot of surplus funds.....or is it a gift from the Chinese?
> 
> But next year is payback time for the billions of dollars in IMF/ADB loans - $7 billion to the IMF and $10 billion to the ADB! Where's the money gonna come from? (Nawaz doesn't even pay taxes!! )
> 
> Just saying. Not my business though!




It's ok we got the sarcasm. BTW it's soft loan to be paid in 4 installments. Further pakistan has already paid back the loans for the F22P and JFT.


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## dy1022

Come on, My Friends in here!


Thailand's S26T 3,000T with AIP and Torpedo only - cost more than 350 millions per each.


Pakistan's S26P 3,000T with AIP and Torpedo(Yu-6=MK48)+Anti-ship Missiles+SLCM+TOT+Supporting and Service Facilities.



S20+AIP = S26

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## $@rJen

farhan_9909 said:


> Reliable Info
> 
> *Total cost of the deal is 2.6Billion dollars
> *Include AIP



2.6 billion for 8 AIP subs???? I don't thin so man....


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## $@rJen

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> 8 S-20 AIP's + 3 Agosta 90Bs with MESMA AIPs... + 2-3 upgraded 70s? That's 13+ subs... The original armed forces modernisation plan 2019 was to get 14 Subs...



One of the main reasons for this 8 sub is to replace the old Agosta 70s



ziaulislam said:


> with 10 billlion dollar defence budget with 27% for equipment buying i.e 2.7 billion dollars, even if budget doesnt increase much we still can afford to pay 5 billion over period of 10-15 years.. the time / life span of the deal!
> 
> the actual deal is around 2 billion dollars max, otherwise we would have gone for german ones



That 10billion Budget is for the entire military including salaries and pensions i guess (correct me if wrong) but PN gets very little amount in that... wiki says 5 billion for the 8 subs..i tru i think so guys will get the subs in soft loan


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## DESERT FIGHTER

sarjenprabhu said:


> One of the main reasons for this 8 sub is to replace the old Agosta 70s


As I said original plan was for 14 subs... Minus 70s that's 11 AIP's... 



> That 10billion Budget is for the entire military including salaries and pensions i guess (correct me if wrong) but PN gets very little amount in that... wiki says 5 billion for the 8 subs..i tru i think so guys will get the subs in soft loan




Nope.. Salaries yes but not pension .. Nor are Paramilitary forces paid or maintained under the defence budget.. Apart from that FFGs also provides funding to the military..

The amount quoted is 4-5 billion in 4 instalments.

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## Penguin

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> 8 S-20 AIP's + 3 Agosta 90Bs with MESMA AIPs... + 2-3 upgraded 70s? That's 13+ subs... The original armed forces modernisation plan 2019 was to get 14 Subs...


But the Agosta 70s are from 1979 and 1980, so 35-36 years old very and nearing the end of their service life. Put differently, by the thime 8 submarines of the S-20 type are all delivered, the 70's will likely be retired, or retiring.


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## Quwa

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> The approval was for $4 billion that includes aprox 300 million for New ATR-72 and upgrades.
> 
> Pakistan To Buy 8 Submarines From China


Where does it say $4bn will be spent on submarines?


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## Arsalan

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> ITALY U-212 on offer...
> 
> 
> In 2012-13 the S-20 was offered to Pakistan but it did not have the AIP hence it was rejected...Pakistan wanted the Song class sub but the issue was which AIP would be available as the German's were not interested to sell their system. Now it is still too early to say which AIP is being offered...The other question is also which engine is going to power these subs because Germany might not be willing to give their engines.
> 
> One can only hope that these things would have been taken care hence this contract has finally gone through.


Chinese have developed there own AIP propulsion systems refereed to as "specialized engine" in Chinese sources. It was developed by 711th Research Institute of the China Shipbuilding Heavy Industry Group Corp. The question how good or how silent that is. I will again STRESS on the point that PN MUST get the submarines fitted with AIP and do not chose to buy the subs and plan to fit the AIP systems later (if that is the case, it will be done in the name of getting/looking for a more appropriate AIP) as that will be a huge mistake and may leave us with 6 - 8 useless submarines. German engine and AIP are almost out of picture now with Germany and India going ahead with U-214. I wish we had acquired some 4 U214 when these were on offer about a decade back. Could have opted for Chinese bigger subs at a later stage, like now and that would have given an excellent mix of Hi-Low platform. One more potent when it come to sneaking behind enemy lines and attacking the naval fleet and the big boy able to strike targets deep inside enemy territory but unfortunately we did not had the cash :. U214 sure is a potent platform, anyway, for us it is time to move on and hope that Chinese subs can get as as close as possible to that technological advantage.

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## black-hawk_101

This means that Pakistan Navy will be buying this 8 S-20P batch directly from China and 4 Patrol Boats in coming years time, that would be 5-7 years. Also going to produce 2 Patrol Vessels @ KS&EWs.

I am quite sure that with these 8 S-20Ps and another 8 S-20P Block-II would make the Agosta's go out of the fleet in coming 10-12 years.


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## Arsalan

blue marlin said:


> what type, mesma, fuel cell, or Stirling?



I guess the answer is in the post you quoted to ask the question  
Or did i miss understood your question? 



Shotgunner51 said:


> *Sure, the ones used is a SE-AIP (Stirling engine) developed by Institute 711 of CSIC *(中船重工), there are two models now, 160kW and 217 kW. Each 039A/B/C are installed with 4 units, i.e. each sub will have 640-868kW.
> 
> I am not sure whether other institutes are developing CCD-AIP (Closed Cycle Diesel) or FC-AIP (Fuel Cell).

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## Blue Marlin

Arsalan said:


> I guess the answer is in the post you quoted to ask the question
> Or did i miss understood your question?


sorry i mistyped, your getting a Stirling engines for your subs



Mark Sien said:


> Where does it say $4bn will be spent on submarines?


no one know the exact price of the deal. how ever the financial time paper contacted some one who knows about the deal said the contract was worth $4-5 billion dollars.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/a2c22012-d845-11e4-ba53-00144feab7de.html


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## xunzi

As I said in a thread in the Chinese defence forum, it is a "friendly price". $500m for AIP sub with tech transfer, after service guarantee, and training is a discount price. We barely break even on this deal. Congrats to our PK Friends!

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## Blue Marlin

xunzi said:


> As I said in a thread in the Chinese defence forum, it is a "friendly price". $500m for AIP sub with tech transfer, after service guarantee, and training is a discount price. We barely break even on this deal. Congrats to our PK Friends!


thialand is buying 3 subs for $1.1 billion so that works out at $366 each so does that mean there sub will not get an aip?


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## xunzi

blue marlin said:


> thialand is buying 3 subs for $1.1 billion so that works out at $366 each so does that mean there sub will not get an aip?


Thailand deal is not a tech transfer and buy as it is. Training is free. After service part is not include. Still a very good price for Thailand.

both deal is AIP.


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## Blue Marlin

xunzi said:


> Thailand deal is not a tech transfer and buy as it is. Training is free. After service part is not include. Still a very good price for Thailand.
> 
> both deal is AIP.


does that mean pakistan can build it own aip's?


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## xunzi

blue marlin said:


> does that mean pakistan can build it own aip's?


Depend on the extension of the tech transfer. But I would assume that PK can domestically build them once they learn of the experty. Though exporting them is a different matter.

For those questioning our sub. We have been operating the Yuan class sub which PK bought a derivative from in the Indian Ocean for quite some time now. Nobody detected until we popped up for port calling. That's when the Indian navy cry and make a big deal to us.

To be honest, I see this deal no different from the JF-17. We export this sub to Pakistan with tech transfer. Eventually PK will build its own sub that derived from S20 in a joint-collaborate of some sort. This deal intends to keep PK navy in top shape in the short term with the long goal of balancing out the Indian navy.

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## Blue Marlin

xunzi said:


> Depend on the extension of the tech transfer. But I would assume that PK can domestically build them once they learn of the experty. Though exporting them is a different matter.
> 
> For those questioning our sub. We have been operating the Yuan class sub which PK bought a derivative from in the Indian Ocean for quite some time now. Nobody detected until we popped up for port calling. That's when the Indian navy cry and make a big deal to us.


lol. you were merely on anti piracy patrol . that would explain why Thailand choose this s20 over the South-Korean offer and the german offer. they were cheaper at $350 million. but then Thailand wants investment as well in return. in the end it was a good deal. it may have annoyed some countries in the process (US) but who cares.

well anyway i am sure the s20 with an aip is good, as Pakistan has the mesma aip and that quiet high tech. so i would imagine this is better. 

but theres one little thing that i find annoying . the agosta 90 that pakistan has, has a diving depth of 350 m where as the s20 is only 300m.


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## Bilal.

dy1022 said:


> Come on, My Friends in here!
> 
> 
> Thailand's S26T 3,000T with AIP and Torpedo only - cost more than 350 millions per each.
> 
> 
> Pakistan's S26P 3,000T with AIP and Torpedo(Yu-6=MK48)+Anti-ship Missiles+SLCM+TOT+Supporting and Service Facilities.
> 
> 
> 
> S20+AIP = S26



Do you know what S30 submarine is?


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## xunzi

blue marlin said:


> lol. you were merely on anti piracy patrol . that would explain why Thailand choose this s20 over the South-Korean offer and the german offer. they were cheaper at $350 million. but then Thailand wants investment as well in return. in the end it was a good deal. it may have annoyed some countries in the process (US) but who cares.
> 
> well anyway i am sure the s20 with an aip is good, as Pakistan has the mesma aip and that quiet high tech. so i would imagine this is better.
> 
> but theres one little thing that i find annoying . the agosta 90 that pakistan has, has a diving depth of 350 m where as the s20 is only 300m.


LOL. If you actually believe we need sub to blow up pirate boats, then I'm speechless. No, the intention to operate sub in the Indian ocean come with many reasons. We want to protect our shipping lane, not from pirate I can guarantee you that, but to also demonstrate to potential buyers of the capability that we can operate our Yuan sub far away from our coast without being detect. It was not until we surface to breath that it makes headline news with our Indian friends. Ever since, they cry and make a big deal about it to their small neighbors who let us stop by to re-supply. We already demonstrate our capability to operate far away nonstop for over 7 months in our anti-pirate campaign, that is if you believe in it. LOL

Why would PK buy a sub without AIP when Yuan is already equipped with AIP? It makes no sense PK navy will let themselves down when they try to deter the Indian navy. The question is which variant of Yuan class will this deal come up with. As you know, each variant is more upgrade and advance than others.

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## Blue Marlin

xunzi said:


> LOL. If you actually believe we need sub to blow up pirate boats, then I'm speechless. No, the intention to operate sub in the Indian ocean come with many reasons. We want to protect our shipping lane, not from pirate I can guarantee you that, but to also demonstrate to potential buyers of the capability that we can operate our Yuan sub far away from our coast without being detect. It was not until we surface to breath that it makes headline news with our Indian friends. Ever since, they cry and make a big deal about it to their small neighbors who let us stop by to re-supply. We already demonstrate our capability to operate far away nonstop for over 7 months in our anti-pirate campaign, that is if you believe in it. LOL
> 
> Why would PK buy a sub without AIP when Yuan is already equipped with AIP? It makes no sense PK navy will let themselves down when they try to deter the Indian navy. The question is which variant of Yuan class will this deal come up with. As you know, each variant is more upgrade and advance than others.



i was being sarcastic  . but you make a point by saying your showing of it's capabilities far from Chinese mainland.

i thought they are buying the s20 (which is confirmed) which would come with an aip. so that is basically a type 39. but it's built in a modular aspect, so customers can choose what they want.


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## araz

Thorough Pro said:


> Well at least we don't boast of mother of all deals for 10 years to finally realizing there is no money to back the loud mouth. We keep quite and do whatever is necessary regardless of where the money comes from.


Please dont start a flame war. Let them cry if they want but dont respond.
Araz



Rashid Mahmood said:


> Modified Yuan (AIP).
> No details yet available.


@Rashid Mahmood could you kindly confirm the cost involved and give us an idea if there is more important stuff that hjas been negotiated which is why the price is hogher. I gather Thailand bought 3 for 1.1billion. So why is the cost so high. Help would be appreciated.
Araz

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## Blue Marlin

araz said:


> Please dont start a flame war. Let them cry if they want but dont respond.
> Araz
> 
> 
> @Rashid Mahmood could you kindly confirm the cost involved and give us an idea if there is more important stuff that hjas been negotiated which is why the price is hogher. I gather Thailand bought 3 for 1.1billion. So why is the cost so high. Help would be appreciated.
> Araz


Pakistan is getting tot or [transfer of technology] this means Pakistan will be given the ability to develop it owns subs, but this depends on how deep the tot agreement is. typically Pakistan will build the last subs with Chinese assistance and the very last sub will be built completely independent of Chinese assistance. 
with in regards to price i heard its about $500 million each

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## araz

Zarvan said:


> Yes two nuclear will be other then these 8 submarines they are hiding about two nuclear submarines


And your friend has knowledge of it and passes it on to you. May Allah have mercy on Pakistan and its young ones who peddle state secrets around just to show they are knowledgeable. And who do you propose to fight with these 2 Nuclear subs. And do you know what the costs of running one will be and whether PN could afford to do so.

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## Rashid Mahmood

araz said:


> Please dont start a flame war. Let them cry if they want but dont respond.
> Araz
> 
> 
> @Rashid Mahmood could you kindly confirm the cost involved and give us an idea if there is more important stuff that hjas been negotiated which is why the price is hogher. I gather Thailand bought 3 for 1.1billion. So why is the cost so high. Help would be appreciated.
> Araz



The cost for these submarines isn't even final yet.
It will take time to select and finalize all the equipment. PN will tailor these subs to it's own requirements and it will different to the existing specs, that's why I said it will be a "Modified Yuan".
We are NOT buying what Thailand ordered.

The deal figure which has come in the media is not only subs, it includes other equipment also.

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## I M Sikander

Great Sachin said:


> Pakistan fast becoming "Made in China"


Thanks a lot for your nonsense. But plz no more mental farting.


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## Blue Marlin

araz said:


> And your friend has knowledge of it and passes it on to you. May Allah have mercy on Pakistan and its young ones who peddle state secrets around just to show they are knowledgeable. And who do you propose to fight with these 2 Nuclear subs. And do you know what the costs of running one will be and whether PN could afford to do so.


i doubt Pakistan will get a nuclear sub. 

i heard Pakistan is playing clever buy saying it not developing a nuclear sub. but it is developing nuclear propulsion. this nuclear modular may be simply attached to a sub. hence making it a nuclear sub. 

also i doubt Pakistan navy officials will pass on classified info on to members of the public. even if you are friends with them.


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## Rashid Mahmood

Zarvan said:


> Sir yes I know and from AK 2 to T-84 OPLOT M and HQ-9 and HQ-16 and JF-17 and than new Artillery and Air Defence Guns from Turkey to these 8 submarines Sir we have the money as for nuclear submarines negotiations are on final stages.



My friend, even if you have this info and it is credible, DO NOT post such information here.
It will put you and your friend in trouble.
This is my sincere advice.

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## graphican

From we getting Oplot-M, it is at-least evident that Pakistan is not making defence decision because of friendly attitude towards China - Chinese friendship is no doubt one great element in the decision but this is not the first one. 

Happy to see 8 Chinese Subs coming our way.. Alhamdolillah and Thank you China.

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## Zarvan

Rashid Mahmood said:


> My friend, even if you have this info and it is credible, DO NOT post such information here.
> It will put you and your friend in trouble.
> This is my sincere advice.


Okay I won't from now on

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## Rashid Mahmood

Zarvan said:


> Okay I won't from now on



Thanks for understanding.
You never know who is monitoring this forum, and believe me it is being monitored..!!!

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## Zarvan

Rashid Mahmood said:


> Thanks for understanding.
> You never know who is monitoring this forum, and believe me it is being monitored..!!!


I deleted the previous post by the way what happened to that 12000 marine force which we wanted to raise ?


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## Rashid Mahmood

Zarvan said:


> I deleted the previous post by the way what happened to that 12000 marine force which we wanted to raise ?



We already have Marines, and there strength is being increased systematically to cover the Creeks & coastal bases.
It is a regular process. No new force is being raised separately. It will be bought to a Brigade level soon.

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## Zarvan

Rashid Mahmood said:


> We already have Marines, and there strength is being increased systematically to cover the Creeks & coastal bases.
> It is a regular process. No new force is being raised separately. It will be bought to a Brigade level soon.


By the way what equipment they use and Turkey and Russia are making good amphibious machines like BTR of Russia and a Cobra APC from Turkey why don't we get them for marines ?


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## Rashid Mahmood

Zarvan said:


> By the way what equipment they use and Turkey and Russia are making good amphibious machines like BTR of Russia and a Cobra APC from Turkey why don't we get them for marines ?



First let the important equipment come in, the rest will follow. 
Subs, Frigates, MB's are the priority.
Marines already use the Griffon 2000 TD Hovercraft.

No plans to acquire APCs for Marines. 
Our Marines have the role of primarily Coastal defence, not Amphibious landings, so we equip them accordingly.

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## Bilal.

Rashid Mahmood said:


> First let the important equipment come in, the rest will follow.
> Subs, Frigates, MB's are the priority.
> Marines already use the Griffon 2000 TD Hovercraft.
> 
> No plans to acquire APCs for Marines.
> Our Marines have the role of primarily Coastal defence, not Amphibious landings, so we equip them accordingly.



Stupid question. What is MB?


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## araz

Rashid Mahmood said:


> The cost for these submarines isn't even final yet.
> It will take time to select and finalize all the equipment. PN will tailor these subs to it's own requirements and it will different to the existing specs, that's why I said it will be a "Modified Yuan".
> We are NOT buying what Thailand ordered.
> 
> The deal figure which has come in the media is not only subs, it includes other equipment also.


Thank you. I wont ask any more questions but it would be helpful for an expert like you or Penguin to share whatever you feel easy sharing on an open forum.
Kind regards



Viper0011. said:


> No one's being egoistic. When you guys act jingoistic and act silly, these things will come up. Act mature and debate more!


OK people. Enough of the intricacies of the english language. @Viper0011 ,@blue marlin has explained his problem. Please let us move on and discuss what is at hand.
Araz


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## Blue Marlin

araz said:


> Thank you. I wont ask any more questions but it would be helpful for an expert like you or Penguin to share whatever you feel easy sharing on an open forum.
> Kind regards
> 
> 
> OK people. Enough of the intricacies of the english language. @Viper0011 ,@blue marlin has explained his problem. Please let us move on and discuss what is at hand.
> Araz


i asked if anyone knows when the Chinese will sign off on the deal and when will you expect delivery for the first sub.


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## nax

blue marlin said:


> i asked if anyone knows when the Chinese will sign off on the deal and when will you expect delivery for the first sub.


The deal might be signed later this year or early 2016. First boat will be deliver no earlier than 2018.

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## araz

blue marlin said:


> i asked if anyone knows when the Chinese will sign off on the deal and when will you expect delivery for the first sub.


In a nutshell a broad agreement has beensigned showing PN intention of buying 8 boats. The specs are not settled as per Rashid Mahmood. Lets get the specs finalized at which time the final price would be known. The delivery schedule would probably be 2-21/2 yrs from then. 2018/19 seems right.


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## ziaulislam

sarjenprabhu said:


> One of the main reasons for this 8 sub is to replace the old Agosta 70s
> 
> 
> 
> That 10billion Budget is for the entire military including salaries and pensions i guess (correct me if wrong) but PN gets very little amount in that... wiki says 5 billion for the 8 subs..i tru i think so guys will get the subs in soft loan



are you blind???

please read my post fully.

i said military has procurement budget of 2.5-3.0 billion. The amount is fixed but allocation varies depending upon the situation, e.g during 1990s when we were under the "IMF" we paid 4 billion for F-16s, than in 1998 we paid around 2 billion for french subs. since than the procurment budget has increased by 300% and total pakistan GDP by 4 times.. so it varies ..most of chunck was going to PAF/army for past 5-6 years now it will got o navy for 1-2 years..remeber we are going to pay 2.5 billion for subs over 10 years. even with current procurement budget of navy of 100-150 million dollars it can pay that much..how do you think navy paid for 900 million dollars PC-3 orion and ATR- aircrafts ?

indians need to understand that pakistan isnt maladives that cant pay a few billion dollars over period of 10 years!!

having said that its possible that navy will get it via soft loans but i think navy will get the F-22P frigates via that arrangement not the subs

if india is spending over 120 billion dollars in buying spree of everything from propeller to subs , pakistan can easily spend atleast 1/10 of that without any problem


----------



## ACE OF THE AIR

Mark Sien said:


> Where does it say $4bn will be spent on submarines?



The procurement of a new fleet of submarines constitutes Islamabad’s most expensive arms deal by far. Estimated total costs range between $4-5 billion. _IHS Jane_’s quotes a former Pakistani defense official who said that it is “difficult to imagine a price of less than USD 500 million per submarine, if not more.”

Confirmed: Pakistan Will Buy Eight Chinese Subs | The Diplomat



Arsalan said:


> Chinese have developed there own AIP propulsion systems refereed to as "specialized engine" in Chinese sources. It was developed by 711th Research Institute of the China Shipbuilding Heavy Industry Group Corp. The question how good or how silent that is. I will again STRESS on the point that PN MUST get the submarines fitted with AIP and do not chose to buy the subs and plan to fit the AIP systems later (if that is the case, it will be done in the name of getting/looking for a more appropriate AIP) as that will be a huge mistake and may leave us with 6 - 8 useless submarines. German engine and AIP are almost out of picture now with Germany and India going ahead with U-214. I wish we had acquired some 4 U214 when these were on offer about a decade back. Could have opted for Chinese bigger subs at a later stage, like now and that would have given an excellent mix of Hi-Low platform. One more potent when it come to sneaking behind enemy lines and attacking the naval fleet and the big boy able to strike targets deep inside enemy territory but unfortunately we did not had the cash :. U214 sure is a potent platform, anyway, for us it is time to move on and hope that Chinese subs can get as as close as possible to that technological advantage.


Sir, now if this "specialized engine" is indeed part of S-20 it could either be boon or burst...


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## Thorough Pro

Missile boat.



Bilal. said:


> Stupid question. What is MB?

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## rockstar08

Rashid Mahmood said:


> First let the important equipment come in, the rest will follow.
> Subs, Frigates, MB's are the priority.
> Marines already use the Griffon 2000 TD Hovercraft.
> 
> No plans to acquire APCs for Marines.
> Our Marines have the role of primarily Coastal defence, not Amphibious landings, so we equip them accordingly.



What is MB's ? 
and in your previous post you talk about some other Equipment comes with the deal .. ? what can that be ? any hint or guesses ?
my best guess is that i read news on PDF about Pakistan buying Subs and leasing 2 Type 54A Destroyers from China .. so guess these Destroyers are also in deal


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## Blue Marlin

araz said:


> In a nutshell a broad agreement has beensigned showing PN intention of buying 8 boats. The specs are not settled as per Rashid Mahmood. Lets get the specs finalized at which time the final price would be known. The delivery schedule would probably be 2-21/2 yrs from then. 2018/19 seems right.


i am aware that pakistan is intending to buy the 8 submarines i was one of the first to know publicly. i even started the tread. anyway . if you read the first post, china still needs to signoff on the deal for the contract to be in effect . do you know when china will sign off on the deal?
also does any one what 6 patrol boats you are getting.


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## Rashid Mahmood

Bilal. said:


> Stupid question. What is MB?



Missile Boat.



araz said:


> Thank you. I wont ask any more questions but it would be helpful for an expert like you or Penguin to share whatever you feel easy sharing on an open forum.
> Kind regards



Thanks.
I do share whatever is possible and within limits.



rockstar08 said:


> What is MB's ?
> and in your previous post you talk about some other Equipment comes with the deal .. ? what can that be ? any hint or guesses ?
> my best guess is that i read news on PDF about Pakistan buying Subs and leasing 2 Type 54A Destroyers from China .. so guess these Destroyers are also in deal



MB = Missile Boat.
There is other equipment in the deal, but it's not leasing of any destroyers.
When the time comes the info will also be made available. Maybe some MB's.

Don't just believe everything being discussed on PDF.
I know we are all very patriotic and enthusiastic and want our armed forces to have the best, but we have to aware that is isn't that easy.

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## rockstar08

Rashid Mahmood said:


> Missile Boat.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks.
> I do share whatever is possible and within limits.
> 
> 
> 
> MB = Missile Boat.
> There is other equipment in the deal, but it's not leasing of any destroyers.
> When the time comes the info will also be made available. Maybe some MB's.
> 
> Don't just believe everything being discussed on PDF.
> I know we are all very patriotic and enthusiastic and want our armed forces to have the best, but we have to aware that is isn't that easy.



oh ok  Thanks ...
and yeah i do believe it should be very hard and time consuming to evaluate a system , and specially if you want to extract the best out of it  like Subs ..
well its very exciting news thought , now I am waiting for details , that what else PN is negotiating 
and also the details of these Subs ..
That will be best day for me when i see Babur CM be fired from our Subs


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## Rashid Mahmood

rockstar08 said:


> oh ok  Thanks ...
> and yeah i do believe it should be very hard and time consuming to evaluate a system , and specially if you want to extract the best out of it  like Subs ..
> well its very exciting news thought , now I am waiting for details , that what else PN is negotiating
> and also the details of these Subs ..
> That will be best day for me when i see Babur CM be fired from our Subs



You will see that day. 
For sure.

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## rockstar08

Rashid Mahmood said:


> You will see that day.
> For sure.



Inshallah

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## Blue Marlin

Anyone got the specs for the 6 patrol boats?

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Congrats on Pakistan Military for organizing such purchase


Eight !!!!

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## Muhammad Omar

Navy should Buy Frigates and Corvettes too.... (Not F-22p) but Type 52 or type 54



blue marlin said:


> Anyone got the specs for the 6 patrol boats?



is it GRC43M you talking about? Pakistan is getting 8 instead of 6 from USA 

Specifications | GRC 43 | Response, Rescue & Interdiction Vessel

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## Kristian




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## Shotgunner51

rockstar08 said:


> oh ok  Thanks ...
> and yeah i do believe it should be very hard and time consuming to evaluate a system , and specially if you want to extract the best out of it  like Subs ..
> well its very exciting news thought , now I am waiting for details , that what else PN is negotiating
> and also the details of these Subs ..
> That will be best day for me when i see Babur CM be fired from our Subs



You are right, we don't know the details yet, let's wait. While my estimate is that other than the 8 modified 039A/039C/041 AIP sub, the package should include other major supporting systems since this is a strategic move towards establishing a net-centric second strike capability, not just tactical naval warfare. Hence I would say auxiliary vessels e.g. Type 930/946A submarine rescue/support ships, Type 926 submarine tenders, Beidou guidance systems (for Babur SLCM/LACM), port equipments, an inventory of sub weaponry, and fleet command & control systems.

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## rockstar08

Shotgunner51 said:


> You are right, we don't know the details yet, let's wait. While my estimate is that other than the 8 modified 039A/039C/041 AIP sub, the package should include other major supporting systems since this is a strategic move towards establishing a net-centric second strike capability, not just tactical naval warfare. Hence I would say auxiliary vessels e.g. Type 930/946A submarine rescue/support ships, Type 926 submarine tenders, Beidou guidance systems (for Babur SLCM/LACM), port equipments, an inventory of sub weaponry, and fleet command & control systems.
> 
> View attachment 240982



That would be Awesome 
but can you shed a little bit more light on the role of the Ship , you shared the pic ..
i dont have any knowledge about this


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## Kristian

Shotgunner51 said:


> View attachment 240982



Many sailors this boat. How many??!

A Quiz.


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## Shotgunner51

rockstar08 said:


> That would be Awesome
> but can you shed a little bit more light on the role of the Ship , you shared the pic ..
> i dont have any knowledge about this



You mean the auxiliary naval ships? These sub tenders, sub rescue/support vessels are positioned specifically to work in accordance with submarines. PLAN has several classes e.g. 925, 926, 930, 946, 046A, etc., you may search more info on the web along that direction. The one in the pic should be Type 925, pennant number 861 of PLAN, displacement around 10,087 tonnes.



Kristian said:


> Many sailors this boat. How many??!
> 
> A Quiz.



LOL a quiz! OK the crew size for Type 925 sub support ship should be 298.

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## Blue Marlin

Kristian said:


> Many sailors this boat. How many??!
> 
> A Quiz.


Type 039A submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

8 Sub purchase after 1998 wait of 16 years , a reasonable purchase for severely outnumbered Navy


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## Blue Marlin

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> 8 Sub purchase after 1998 wait of 16 years , a reasonable purchase for severely outnumbered Navy


your table is wrong

india
carriers 2
destroyers 9
frigates 15

pakistan 
frigates 10
submarines 5, midget subs dont count
dont know about missile boats, 11 is a good number


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Still a very substantial difference in Navy we need to continually construct the navy for another 10 years


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## Blue Marlin

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Congrats on Pakistan Military for organizing such purchase
> 
> 
> Eight !!!!


two subs are 2 replace the agost 70 and the other 6 will be for enhancing the navies capabilities in terms of patrolling on a more constant basis


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

But the big point is Tranfer of Technology  would come handy for future expansion


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## shaheenmissile

blue marlin said:


> your table is wrong
> 
> india
> carriers 2
> destroyers 9
> frigates 15
> 
> pakistan
> frigates 10
> submarines 5, midget subs dont count
> dont know about missile boats, 11 is a good number


Also try to look into the size of Indian coast,compared to Pakistan's coast? The equation is heavily tilted on Pakistan's side.


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## Blue Marlin

shaheenmissile said:


> Also try to look into the size of Indian coast,compared to Pakistan's coast? The equation is heavily tilted on Pakistan's side.


math is not going to save you when you have a navy several times the size of yours.


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## shaheenmissile

blue marlin said:


> math is not going to save you when you have a navy several times the size of yours.


well it will. Even now without any new purchase,Indian Navy cannot blockade Pakistani ports.


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## Blue Marlin

shaheenmissile said:


> well it will. Even now without any new purchase,Indian Navy cannot blockade Pakistani ports.


treu but not yet. your 8 subs will give them a lot of problems it could possibly be used to keep warships at port and prevent them from going to sea.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Well our Subs are for strategic use.


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## Blue Marlin

a very interesting picture a vls Chinese sub.








AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Well our Subs are for strategic use.


they are not going to sit and wait for a war. they will be on patrol and will probably given instructions during a conflict.

also i doubt all 8 subs will be nuclear armed.


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## knight11

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> But the big point is Tranfer of Technology  would come handy for future expansion


what is that *TOT ??????????*


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## Blue Marlin

knight11 said:


> what is that *TOT ??????????*


transfer of technology, it allow countries to build submarines indepandantly. but it depend on how deep the agreement is. like what india is doing with the scorpene submarine


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## knight11

Buddy yaar this question was for AZADPAKISTAN2009


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## FuturePAF

It would be most prudent if Pakistan planned out Submarine Production in this deal into blocks; when china builds 3 submarines of one variant, Pakistan builds one sub in that variant, so one sub is only built every 2-3 years, but in this way, Pakistan gets to test and field the latest subs, and jointly funnel the operational knowledge back into improving the design.; spread the production of these 8 submarines over the next 16-20 years.

also buying one malaysian LCS for just under $500 Million would be a good deal (a good investment); if france will allow the deal; its bring access to ASW tech, modest air defense tech, and modern command and control as well as ECM tech

Second Generation Patrol Vessel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

good to train against for these subs, and in future good platform to train with the Malaysian navy; they operate the scorpene submarine, a submarine Pakistan will have to know how to counter


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## Blue Marlin

update: the sub will be called the S26P

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## Arsalan

blue marlin said:


> update: the sub will be called the S26P


Whatever the call it, i am waiting for the specs with fingers crossed. I just hope that this time the do choose for decent enough package. Unlike army and air forces, our navy is have a bit of tainted past when it come to hardware procurement. No compromise should be made this time. We need decent enough submarines that are not NOISY and are fitted with AIP as well. VLS for missiles will be an extra bonus but if the subs are quite enough and equipped with AIP as well as sonar absorbent tiles and are quite, a torpedo tube launched missiles will be enough as well. The main thing is we need subs able to sneak past enemy defenses.

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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> Whatever the call it, i am waiting for the specs with fingers crossed. I just hope that this time the do choose for decent enough package. Unlike army and air forces, our navy is have a bit of tainted past when it come to hardware procurement. No compromise should be made this time. We need decent enough submarines that are not NOISY and are fitted with AIP as well. VLS for missiles will be an extra bonus but if the subs are quite enough and equipped with AIP as well as sonar absorbent tiles and are quite, a torpedo tube launched missiles will be enough as well. The main thing is we need subs able to sneak past enemy defenses.


Don't worry lot of good weapons are on their way Navy will soon be turned into a monster


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## Gufi

The question is what torpedoes will we be getting with these submarines, and what radar system will be used, will this be a mixture of Chinese and EU/foreign technology and will there be any Pakistani made systems...


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## Blue Marlin

Arsalan said:


> Whatever the call it, i am waiting for the specs with fingers crossed. I just hope that this time the do choose for decent enough package. Unlike army and air forces, our navy is have a bit of tainted past when it come to hardware procurement. No compromise should be made this time. We need decent enough submarines that are not NOISY and are fitted with AIP as well. VLS for missiles will be an extra bonus but if the subs are quite enough and equipped with AIP as well as sonar absorbent tiles and are quite, a torpedo tube launched missiles will be enough as well. The main thing is we need subs able to sneak past enemy defenses.


Pakistan already has aip subs and they are very advanced. so they will choose something thats better than what they already got so your looking at a very potent sub


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## Arsalan

Gufi said:


> The question is what torpedoes will we be getting with these submarines, and what radar system will be used, will this be a mixture of Chinese and EU/foreign technology and will there be any Pakistani made systems...


From what i can see, the only Pakistani system can be the land attack cruise missile at best. The anti-ship missiles, torpedo, sonars, battle management system and all other goodies will be imported. The good news is we will build a couple of these at home and will help improve our skills and understanding of submarines and there sub systems.



blue marlin said:


> Pakistan already has aip subs and they are very advanced. so they will choose something thats better than what they already got so your looking at a very potent sub


Something better then AIP? 
Remember i mentioned AIP and not MESMA or Sterling cycle AIP. Furthermore if you are hinting about fuel cell based AIP, it is highly unlikely. If we can get a decent Sterling cycle AIP that is no very noisy i will be happy.


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## Gufi

Arsalan said:


> From what i can see, the only Pakistani system can be the land attack cruise missile at best. The anti-ship missiles, torpedo, sonars, battle management system and all other goodies will be imported. The good news is we will build a couple of these at home and will help improve our skills and understanding of submarines and there sub systems.


The issue remains because other older versions we have may not be compatible with these submarines and we need long ranged active homing torpedoes which have enough punch to take down aircraft carriers. I know this will be looked at in detail, just thinking on it. 
@cnleio please tell us about the Chinese torpedoes which are compatible with the type 39


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## Blue Marlin

Arsalan said:


> From what i can see, the only Pakistani system can be the land attack cruise missile at best. The anti-ship missiles, torpedo, sonars, battle management system and all other goodies will be imported. The good news is we will build a couple of these at home and will help improve our skills and understanding of submarines and there sub systems.
> 
> 
> Something better then AIP?
> Remember i mentioned AIP and not MESMA or Sterling cycle AIP. Furthermore if you are hinting about fuel cell based AIP, it is highly unlikely. If we can get a decent Sterling cycle AIP that is no very noisy i will be happy.


when i mean something better i meant a sub the better than the previous. example being more quieter, less vibrations, better designed propeller to reduce/eliminate cavitation, fuel cell aip are german so thats not going to happen. you will get an indigenous Chinese Stirling aip.


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## Arsalan

blue marlin said:


> when i mean something better i meant a sub the better than the previous. example being more quieter, less vibrations, better designed propeller to reduce/eliminate cavitation, fuel cell aip are german so thats not going to happen. you will get an indigenous Chinese Stirling aip.


Yes, isnt it what i was say? 

In past there have been some issues with PN procurement and they have not been as smooth as that of Army or air force. So i hope things go well this time and we do get a good platform. Again, i cannot stress enough that the primary objective of the subs (specially for PN) is to be able quite and stealth, to be able to sneak past enemy defenses and deny them naval blockade of Pakistan. I hope we do get this.


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## Blue Marlin

Arsalan said:


> Yes, isnt it what i was say?
> 
> In past there have been some issues with PN procurement and they have not been as smooth as that of Army or air force. So i hope things go well this time and we do get a good platform. Again, i cannot stress enough that the primary objective of the subs (specially for PN) is to be able quite and stealth, to be able to sneak past enemy defenses and deny them naval blockade of Pakistan. I hope we do get this.


your buying from china so they is going to be no problems. where as buying stuff from the US and some european countries are difficult


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## Arsalan

Gufi said:


> The issue remains because other older versions we have may not be compatible with these submarines and we need long ranged active homing torpedoes which have enough punch to take down aircraft carriers. I know this will be looked at in detail, just thinking on it.
> @cnleio please tell us about the Chinese torpedoes which are compatible with the type 39


If i may, the primary weapon for Type 39 is Yu-4 Torpedo which is acoustic homing torpedo with a range of about 15 Km. The submarines are also known to have tested CY-1 rocket that can carry some torpedo (e.g. Mark 46) as payload and have a range of about 15 Km.
Also as the reports mention Mark 46 i guess the system are compatible to use these as well. However i am not sure and it is most likely that with Chinese subs we will get Chinese torpedo (Yu-4)

Also there is a long list of many other/better systems we can get from China like the Yu-5 or Yu-6 (Chinese equivalent of Mark 48, heavy weight longer range), Then there is the scary Yu-8

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## Rashid Mahmood

Arsalan said:


> If i may, the primary weapon for Type 39 is Yu-4 Torpedo which is acoustic homing torpedo with a range of about 15 Km. The submarines are also known to have tested CY-1 rocket that can carry some torpedo (e.g. Mark 46) as payload and have a range of about 15 Km.
> Also as the reports mention Mark 46 i guess the system are compatible to use these as well. However i am not sure and it is most likely that with Chinese subs we will get Chinese torpedo (Yu-4)
> 
> Also there is a long list of many other/better systems we can get from China like the Yu-5 or Yu-6 (Chinese equivalent of Mark 48, heavy weight longer range), Then there is the scary Yu-8




Mk -46 torpedoes are not sub launched in any form.

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## Arsalan

Rashid Mahmood said:


> Mk -46 torpedoes are not sub launched in any form.


All right, may be i mixed it with the CY-1 payload. Anyway, Mark 46 wont be an option anyhow. We are buying Chinese subs and will most likely get the Chinese torpedoes (they do have a few types to chose from). The question is, what do you suggest, will we make them here at home or will simply import these?


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## cnleio

Gufi said:


> The issue remains because other older versions we have may not be compatible with these submarines and we need long ranged active homing torpedoes which have enough punch to take down aircraft carriers. I know this will be looked at in detail, just thinking on it.
> @cnleio please tell us about the Chinese torpedoes which are compatible with the type 39


1. Yu-6 wire-guided torpedo
















2. YJ-82 sub-launched anti-ship missile















3. There's another China designed supercavitation rocket-torpedo ... but i don't know whether export.

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## Zarvan

My main interest is How many Naval version of Babur these subs would be able to carry


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## Gufi

cnleio said:


> 2. YJ-82 sub-launched anti-ship missile


I doubt this is for export, I have read this is not for export. If this is bought, it will make these submarines very potent defenders.

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## aliaselin

Arsalan said:


> If i may, the primary weapon for Type 39 is Yu-4 Torpedo which is acoustic homing torpedo with a range of about 15 Km. The submarines are also known to have tested CY-1 rocket that can carry some torpedo (e.g. Mark 46) as payload and have a range of about 15 Km.
> Also as the reports mention Mark 46 i guess the system are compatible to use these as well. However i am not sure and it is most likely that with Chinese subs we will get Chinese torpedo (Yu-4)
> 
> Also there is a long list of many other/better systems we can get from China like the Yu-5 or Yu-6 (Chinese equivalent of Mark 48, heavy weight longer range), Then there is the scary Yu-8


Type 039 now use Yu9 and Yu10 but not for export. Yu8 is rocket propelled Yu7

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## Zarvan

Gufi said:


> I doubt this is for export, I have read this is not for export. If this is bought, it will make these submarines very potent defenders.


If we want it would come


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## Rashid Mahmood

Arsalan said:


> All right, may be i mixed it with the CY-1 payload. Anyway, Mark 46 wont be an option anyhow. We are buying Chinese subs and will most likely get the Chinese torpedoes (they do have a few types to chose from). The question is, what do you suggest, will we make them here at home or will simply import these?



Local production of torpedoes is not part of this contract and will have to be dealt separately if required.
Initially the torpedo will be imported( as all other weapons) and it's maintenance setup will be acquired.

However, the torpedo tubes are NATO standard, so we can fire any torpedo which fits the specs.
I am not sure that the deal will restrict in buying chinese weapons, but as PN is modifying the subs, probably it will not limit it self to chinese weapons.



Zarvan said:


> My main interest is How many Naval version of Babur these subs would be able to carry



This question my friend no one will be able to answer, like ever....

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## Shotgunner51

Zarvan said:


> If we want it would come



True that bro, CN-PK defense co-op has always been way above normal "export" ... ... somethings can done but not spoken of ... ...

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## Arsalan

Rashid Mahmood said:


> *Local production of torpedoes is not part of this contract and will have to be dealt separately if required.*
> Initially the torpedo will be imported( as all other weapons) and it's maintenance setup will be acquired.


Well i do have an idea about that,, i was looking to pick your brain. What do you think? Personally, i think we will be getting them, buying them from China or even some western supplier. I do not see ToT and in house production.


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## Rashid Mahmood

Arsalan said:


> Well i do have an idea about that,, i was looking to pick your brain. What do you think? Personally, i think we will be getting them, buying them from China or even some western supplier. I do not see ToT and in house production.



I agree.
Local production of Torpedoes is not cost effective.

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## Arsalan

Rashid Mahmood said:


> I agree.
> Local production of Torpedoes is not cost effective.


hmm thought so..
Anyway, i hope we are able to get a mix of Chinese and Western torpedo to worth with these subs. Even Turkey can provide with some attractive options.

Still, for now we can just wait and wish that things go smoothly and no compromise is made. We seriously lack in this one department and there is no better thing to close the gap then excellent quality silent submarines working on your side.

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## Zarvan

Rashid Mahmood said:


> Local production of torpedoes is not part of this contract and will have to be dealt separately if required.
> Initially the torpedo will be imported( as all other weapons) and it's maintenance setup will be acquired.
> 
> However, the torpedo tubes are NATO standard, so we can fire any torpedo which fits the specs.
> I am not sure that the deal will restrict in buying chinese weapons, but as PN is modifying the subs, probably it will not limit it self to chinese weapons.
> 
> 
> 
> This question my friend no one will be able to answer, like ever....


But why ?


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Zarvan said:


> Don't worry lot of good weapons are on their way Navy will soon be turned into a monster


What is the update on coastal defense sam's?



Arsalan said:


> From what i can see, the only Pakistani system can be the land attack cruise missile at best. The anti-ship missiles, torpedo, sonars, battle management system and all other goodies will be imported. The good news is we will build a couple of these at home and will help improve our skills and understanding of submarines and there sub systems.


Can the subs have Turkish battle management system? What is the state of Chinese AIP project?



Arsalan said:


> If i may, the primary weapon for Type 39 is Yu-4 Torpedo which is acoustic homing torpedo with a range of about 15 Km. The submarines are also known to have tested CY-1 rocket that can carry some torpedo (e.g. Mark 46) as payload and have a range of about 15 Km.
> Also as the reports mention Mark 46 i guess the system are compatible to use these as well. However i am not sure and it is most likely that with Chinese subs we will get Chinese torpedo (Yu-4)
> 
> Also there is a long list of many other/better systems we can get from China like the Yu-5 or Yu-6 (Chinese equivalent of Mark 48, heavy weight longer range), Then there is the scary Yu-8



The issue is not just which Chinese weapons would be available but which NATO weapons would be available...

Some time back there was news that Iran has produced supersonic torpedo which is based on the Russian design. With the current Pak - Ruski relation getting really friendly can this be part of PN? 

There is a problem that local production is costly but still this kind of system is definitely going to be a game changer.

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## Gufi

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Can the subs have Turkish battle management system? What is the state of Chinese AIP project?


The uninvited guest: Chinese sub pops up in middle of U.S. Navy exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced | Daily Mail Online

this should answer you

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Gufi said:


> The uninvited guest: Chinese sub pops up in middle of U.S. Navy exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced | Daily Mail Online
> 
> this should answer you


I have read this and i was the first one to quote this. How ever the sub that was in this pic is using the German AIP.

Sir, @Arsalan had earlier quoted that the the German AIP was not being offered infect the AIP that is on offer is a Chinese one.


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## Gufi

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Sir, @Arsalan had earlier quoted that the the German AIP was not being offered infect the AIP that is on offer is a Chinese one.


The Chinese AIP has matured considerably in the last decade because of the ability of China to understand and replicate and improve technology they buy and also special importance given to submarines in particular. 
Plus the issue that is most important to note is the submarine detection abilities of US are much greater then any nation we may have to face. With longer ranged weapons(torpedoes and missiles) these submarines will be able to protect Pakistani interests easily. The real question is how we arm these submarines and will we be able to buy from the EU and othe nations who have mood swings.

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## Blue Marlin

Viper0011. said:


> How long ago did you learn English? Now based on your two stupid posts, I am about to get offensive as I've tried to tell you to not waste time and use your brain with some logic if you have facts to respond to my posts.
> 
> May be in South Indian English and associated Break-Stop accent with the funny Head-shake, you don't call a country "SHE", but in the remainder of the world, a country is referred to as "she". You know that. Unless you call India "HE" lol.
> 
> @Horus @Oscar : gentlemen - could you please check out the posts written by the gentlemen above? I am not sure if I am supposed to teach fifth grade English while we talk about military strategy and facts on this thread.


are you doing this again? has Horus and oscar told you my ip address is from the uk. not india


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## Arsalan

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Can the subs have Turkish battle management system? What is the state of Chinese AIP project?


Reports say that it have matured fast, how much you can rely on those reports is different for different people, matter of personal opinion! 
A small fact in our favor is PLAN heavy relies on submarine force to maintain an advantage in there sea so there is a lot of effort being put in to submarines. Also you can notice that unlike the frigates and destroyers, the submarines are kept under even tighter wraps so not much info is available. 



> The issue is not just which Chinese weapons would be available but which NATO weapons would be available...
> 
> Some time back there was news that Iran has produced supersonic torpedo which is based on the Russian design. With the current Pak - Ruski relation getting really friendly can this be part of PN?
> 
> There is a problem that local production is costly but still this kind of system is definitely going to be a game changer.


It is unlikely that we will get weapons from multiple sources, Turkey, China, Russia and EU wont all fit in into one submarine. The most likely option is that since the submarines are Chinese we will get some Chinese subs and then look for one other supplier for weapon systems like torpedo specially. Again i do not see the subs getting equipped with ASW missiles of origin other then China. Also SLCM will also be most likely based on Babur or some Chinese system (more chances that it will be Babur). Torpedo are the only thing that we may get from two sources, Chine or Turkey, China or EU something like that.

Also no problems with the Chinese battle management system so PN will most likely stick with it with heavy optimization.

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## black-hawk_101

So is the deal for S-20 is like that?
S-20P Block-I : 8 being produced in China with Pakistani engineers on board from 2015-2020
S-20P Block-II : 8 being produced in Pakistan with Chinese engineers on board from 2020-2025
S-20P Block-III : 8 being produced in Pakistan with Chinese engineers on board from 2025-2030


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## Arsalan

black-hawk_101 said:


> So is the deal for S-20 is like that?
> S-20P Block-I : 8 being produced in China with Pakistani engineers on board from 2015-2020
> S-20P Block-II : 8 being produced in Pakistan with Chinese engineers on board from 2020-2025
> S-20P Block-III : 8 being produced in Pakistan with Chinese engineers on board from 2025-2030



no it will be like

8 subs to be produced in China and Pakistan, 8 period.

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## black-hawk_101

Arsalan said:


> no it will be like
> 
> 8 subs to be produced in China and Pakistan, 8 period.


But PN needs many of them. I think if this plan goes well then PN can easily take down any enemy in the world.


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## Arsalan

black-hawk_101 said:


> But PN needs many of them. I think if this plan goes well then PN can easily take down any enemy in the world.


24 subs i i think it will take down itself!!

oo bahi sumandar dekha ha ap na apna? costline ka andaza ha??? 24 subs ka achar dalo gay?

PN requirement is of 12 to 14 boats and they will keep it at that for some decades to come. Be realistic!!

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## Fenrir

Piston_1 said:


> plz chech it out. can not put link coz I'm new here.
> CHINA NEWEST TYPE 098 STRATEGIC NUCLEAR SUBMARINE.* defence- blog , Google it.*



China Building 2 Most Advanced 098 Strategic Nuclear Submarines | Tiananmen's Tremendous Achievements

_It is said that a Chinese Type 098 strategic nuclear submarine has a displacement of *28,300 tons*, can submerge to the depth of *5,200 meters* and is wide in size. As it is propelled by a superconductive system, its noise does not exceed 20 dB. It has free maneuverability due to several vector propelling devices located in various areas of its body. It is a real intelligent stealth submarine undetectable due to very low noise.


It has 50 torpedo launching tubes for conventional defense while its major weapons are the 24 new JL-5 SLBMs with *80 separately guided warheads each*, in which *20-35 are decoys*. However effective the enemy’s missile defense systems are, it can be absolutely sure that 84 enemy cities will be destroyed at the first round of attack._

*---*

BS at it's finest_. _There's nothing wrong with the displacement - the Typhoon neared that weight, but with 50 torpedo tubes, ballistic missiles and "other" things, that weight is BS, like the rest of the article.

Good luck fitting 50 torpedo tubes onto a submarine that's the size of this:

_





_
6 torpedo tubes and 20 SLBM tubes for a 23,200–24,500 tons surfaced, 33,800–48,000 tons submerged, submarine_. _You're not fitting 50 torpedo tubes and 24 SLBMs on a 28,000 ton submarine.

For comparison, the Ohio class SSBN is 16,764 tons surfaced and 18,750 tons submerged - they carry 24 Trident II D5 missiles and have 4 torpedo tubes. The Ohio SSGN conversion has 22 missile tube, each with 7 tomahawk missiles.


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## Chinese-Dragon

Technogaianist said:


> China Building 2 Most Advanced 098 Strategic Nuclear Submarines | Tiananmen's Tremendous Achievements
> 
> _It is said that a Chinese Type 098 strategic nuclear submarine has a displacement of *28,300 tons*, can submerge to the depth of *5,200 meters* and is wide in size. As it is propelled by a superconductive system, its noise does not exceed 20 dB. It has free maneuverability due to several vector propelling devices located in various areas of its body. It is a real intelligent stealth submarine undetectable due to very low noise.
> 
> 
> It has 50 torpedo launching tubes for conventional defense while its major weapons are the 24 new JL-5 SLBMs with *80 separately guided warheads each*, in which *20-35 are decoys*. However effective the enemy’s missile defense systems are, it can be absolutely sure that 84 enemy cities will be destroyed at the first round of attack._
> 
> *---*
> 
> BS at it's finest_. _There's nothing wrong with the displacement - the Typhoon neared that weight, but with 50 torpedo tubes, ballistic missiles and "other" things, that weight is BS, like the rest of the article.
> 
> Good luck fitting 50 torpedo tubes onto a submarine that's the size of this:
> 
> _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _
> 6 torpedo tubes and 20 SLBM tubes for a 23,200–24,500 tons surfaced, 33,800–48,000 tons submerged, submarine_. _You're not fitting 50 torpedo tubes and 24 SLBMs on a 28,000 ton submarine.
> 
> For comparison, the Ohio class SSBN is 16,764 tons surfaced and 18,750 tons submerged - they carry 24 Trident II D5 missiles and have 4 torpedo tubes. The Ohio SSGN conversion has 22 missile tube, each with 7 tomahawk missiles.



50 torpedo tubes? 

That sounds like there is not enough room for anything else except torpedo tubes, not even enough room left for the torpedos themselves!

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## Zarvan

Chinese-Dragon said:


> 50 torpedo tubes?
> 
> That sounds like there is not enough room for anything else except torpedo tubes, not even enough room left for the torpedos themselves!


Go have a look at Virginia and seawolf class of USA.


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## Chinese-Dragon

Zarvan said:


> Go have a look at Virginia and seawolf class of USA.



They have 8 torpedo tubes though?

Well the Virginia-class has 4 torpedo tubes, and the Seawolf-class has 8 torpedo tubes.


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## Blue Marlin

Chinese-Dragon said:


> They have 8 torpedo tubes though?
> 
> Well the Virginia-class has 4 torpedo tubes, and the Seawolf-class has 8 torpedo tubes.


im guessing they must be confusion between torpedo tubes and torpedoes. i would assume he meant it can carry 50 torpedoes.


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## vizier

You actually dont need ballistic missile capable submarine if it has the capability then it is a bonus. The necessary thing is to have the capability to launch cruise missiles even if it is surface launch. Raad having a square flat cross section has low rcs. The 300km range can be increased making it longer, more fuel etc to make it suit for submarine land attack. Babur is also fine having a longer range and can keep cover as it flies low.


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## Muhammad Omar

vizier said:


> *You actually dont need ballistic missile capable submarine if it has the capability then it is a bonus*.



Seriously???? 

what makes you think that Pakistan Don't need Ballistic Missile Capable Subs?


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## Super Falcon

I personally think pakistan navy should have bought 4 not going for 8 subs hope we bought 4 nuclear subs rather than 8 of same class.Why navy think tank is nuts milegam corvetes are not finalised for last 5 years only talks we need DDG type ships india will have 200 ships 25 subs we need our navy balanced not only underwater navy if u take F 22 frigates pn is junk



vizier said:


> You actually dont need ballistic missile capable submarine if it has the capability then it is a bonus. The necessary thing is to have the capability to launch cruise missiles even if it is surface launch. Raad having a square flat cross section has low rcs. The 300km range can be increased making it longer, more fuel etc to make it suit for submarine land attack. Babur is also fine having a longer range and can keep cover as it flies low.


If u increase fuel u increase size or u reduce warhead which u cant if ur cruise missile size increase limited size of attack sub cant handle it launching will be difficult too being a country which has many enemies in world we need wise thinking and weapons for all occasions of need we needed 2 to 4 nuke subs as been nuke country we dont have nuke sub as our enemy growing nuke subs can dive deeper and have unlimited diving time as diesel electric sub only can dive 60 days it has to surface to recharge 

In war time you never know which weapon will make a difference thats why you keep all options open in weapons slowly we need to get better but since 2001 till 2015 pn think tank is nuts only F 22 frigates and few missile boats and retired free ship from USA and orions nothing 
15 years pn budget i know pn has to pay salaries etc but still 15 years budget u could have bought 3 DESTROYERS


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## Quwa

Super Falcon said:


> I personally think pakistan navy should have bought 4 not going for 8 subs hope we bought 4 nuclear subs rather than 8 of same class.Why navy think tank is nuts milegam corvetes are not finalised for last 5 years only talks we need DDG type ships india will have 200 ships 25 subs we need our navy balanced not only underwater navy if u take F 22 frigates pn is junk
> 
> 
> If u increase fuel u increase size or u reduce warhead which u cant if ur cruise missile size increase limited size of attack sub cant handle it launching will be difficult too being a country which has many enemies in world we need wise thinking and weapons for all occasions of need we needed 2 to 4 nuke subs as been nuke country we dont have nuke sub as our enemy growing nuke subs can dive deeper and have unlimited diving time as diesel electric sub only can dive 60 days it has to surface to recharge
> 
> In war time you never know which weapon will make a difference thats why you keep all options open in weapons slowly we need to get better but since 2001 till 2015 pn think tank is nuts only F 22 frigates and few missile boats and retired free ship from USA and orions nothing
> 15 years pn budget i know pn has to pay salaries etc but still 15 years budget u could have bought 3 DESTROYERS


Money. That's the only reason why we're not seeing many great fruits out of the Pak Navy's modernization plans. What happens when your pair a broke country led by Washington's chamchay? Pakistan Navy. What happens when you have Zarb-e-Azb like operations very year and a half? Pakistan Navy.

Anyways, I am not to one to buy the idea that Pakistan is buying 8 submarines for $4-5bn. No way. The submarine deal is not going to be worth that much, there's no way unless we truly are talking about nuclear powered submarines or something of major strategic value. If Pakistan is indeed spending $4-5bn, then it is much likelier that it involves frigates comparable (if not based on) the Type 054A/B. In fact, since CSOC (China Shipbuilding & Offshore International) is apparently involved, it is possible that the PN is in talks to acquire its modern frigate (and possibly corvette) designs.


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## Super Falcon

Bhai if money is issue cut 4 subs and with that anount u can get 1 or 2 destroyers 4 subs are enough

Total amount 4.5 bil for deal count down half 2.2 bil we can get 2 destroyers stupid pn


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## Thorough Pro

Economy of scale. how many Pakistan needs at most?




Zarvan said:


> But why ?


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## ziaulislam

i am surprised why some people think 8 is over kill, its not.
buying 8 subs will mean the deal will be completed in 10-12 years at the fastest pace as it seems most will be built in house.

by than we would have surely retired 2 agosta 70s and will be nearing to retire the 90s too.
meaning we will have 8-11 subs vs india having around 20 subs..india is adding 6+6 subs in next 10-12 years

so pak navy will not be even to match india by 1/3 in subs category , forget about the huge amount of surface vessels


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## Quwa

Super Falcon said:


> Bhai if money is issue cut 4 subs and with that anount u can get 1 or 2 destroyers 4 subs are enough
> 
> Total amount 4.5 bil for deal count down half 2.2 bil we can get 2 destroyers stupid pn


Remember, we still don't know what the actual value of the deal is! The $4-5bn figure came from "a source" - it isn't an official figure. Honestly, if it is just submarines, I don't think it is going to be worth more than $2-2.5bn. But if the deal is indeed worth $4-5bn, then I expect there to be frigates, almost certainly. If we had that kind of money to spend on just submarines, then we would've stuck with U-214.


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## shaheenmissile

Chinese-Dragon said:


> 50 torpedo tubes?
> 
> That sounds like there is not enough room for anything else except torpedo tubes, not even enough room left for the torpedos themselves!


i had to thank this post 

Did i just read the sub can submerge to a depth of 5200 meters?

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## Zarvan

Piston_1 said:


> Perhapes
> *CHINA NEWEST TYPE 098 STRATEGIC NUCLEAR SUBMARINE (The above is Chinese media’s report on the submarine. At the same time US satellite has also found that China is building two new-type 098 fourth-generation strategic nuclear submarines.)according the (defence-blog " Google it")*


I also think these reports are true let see and hope for the best


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## vizier

Muhammad Omar said:


> Seriously????
> 
> what makes you think that Pakistan Don't need Ballistic Missile Capable Subs?


At this initial stage should be quickly acquiring second strike capability and stealthy cruise missile would do the trick. Ofcourse later on sub launch icbm can be developed but immediate requirement is cm capable sub.

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## HariPrasad

Beast said:


> Jealousy at its best. This sub is even better than latest than Kilo and fitted with AIP.



That is why china has approached Russia to buy couple of Submarines to counter modern Indian submarines.


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## Beast

HariPrasad said:


> That is why china has approached Russia to buy couple of Submarines to counter modern Indian submarines.


May I know when? Indian jealousy at best. Poor Indian, Still need to depend on foreign submarine and the submarine build at snail pace.

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## HariPrasad

Beast said:


> May I know when? Indian jealousy at best. Poor Indian, Still need to depend on foreign submarine and the submarine build at snail pace.



Jealousy from China. Are you joking?

read here you brain fart

China to buy super quiet Russian submarines to counter US aircraft carrier | China Daily Mail

You buy S400 after claiming that your HQ is better than russians.

You are doing that with Su 35 also.


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## Beast

HariPrasad said:


> Jealousy from China. Are you joking?
> 
> read here you brain fart
> 
> China to buy super quiet Russian submarines to counter US aircraft carrier | China Daily Mail
> 
> You buy S400 after claiming that your HQ is better than russians.
> 
> You are doing that with Su 35 also.


Lol? Can you post more authentic news? If we buy Russian Lada class sub why PN will buy from China?

Posting some bogus source from Russia combo with Japan bias stance does not cure your wounded prides. It is a fact, China is a powerhouse in naval and we do not buy any more Russian sub. If you can post a source from russian official weapon export agency rosoboexport reporting a genuine deal of China signing for Lada sub. I eat back my words 

If not, sorry for ur brain fart.

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## dy1022

HariPrasad said:


> Jealousy from China. Are you joking?
> 
> read here you brain fart
> 
> China to buy super quiet Russian submarines to counter US aircraft carrier | China Daily Mail
> 
> You buy S400 after claiming that your HQ is better than russians.
> 
> You are doing that with Su 35 also.






Yeah, we already got more than 1,000 SU-35 since 2009!

stop reading bullsh!t, ok?

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## HariPrasad

Beast said:


> Lol? Can you post more authentic news? If we buy Russian Lada class sub why PN will buy from China?



Typical chines. If you quote indian news than Indian is not reliable.
If you post european link than they are US agent.
If you post US news than it is western and not relaible.
If you quote russian one than it is anti china.
It you post chinese news than that is not relaible or news paper is western agent.

Fact of the meter is that you are an idiot and you are not reliable.

Ok the source is bogus than tell me chinese troll whether you guys purchased S 400 from russia or not after a lot of brain fart that HQ is much better than S series of russia or that news is also bogus?


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## Beast

HariPrasad said:


> Typical chines. If you quote indian news than Indian is not reliable.
> If you post european link than they are US agent.
> If you post US news than it is western and not relaible.
> If you quote russian one than it is anti china.
> It you post chinese news than that is not relaible or news paper is western agent.
> 
> Fact of the meter is that you are an idiot and you are not reliable.
> 
> Ok the source is bogus than tell me chinese troll whether you guys purchased S 400 from russia or not after a lot of brain fart that HQ is much better than S series of russia or that news is also bogus?


i thought u will post a authentic source from Russian general or rosoboexport bragging abt China sign a deal to buy Russian Lada sub?

So this is the only rubbish post you can muster for me? 

Poor wounded pride. India will never match industrial China military in next 20years. Indian only know how to buy


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## HariPrasad

Beast said:


> i thought u will post a authentic source from Russian general or rosoboexport bragging abt China sign a deal to buy Russian Lada sub?
> 
> So this is the only rubbish post you can muster for me?
> 
> Poor wounded pride. India will never match industrial China military in next 20years. Indian only know how to buy



So china Daily mail is not a relaible source according to you?


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## Beast

HariPrasad said:


> So china Daily mail is not a relaible source according to you?


China daily news is from US. Do u know that?


----------



## volatile

I think Chinese have outperform in every conventional field possible ,example being not buying SU-35 and not part of PAK FA project .On the other hand India relies heavily on foreign countries even for tyres for Flankers .It will be stupid to write that chinese are buying subs from russia which has nothing new to offer these days .


----------



## HariPrasad

Beast said:


> China daily news is from US. Do u know that?



So what? 
When I quoted China times you said that it is from Taiwan. You do not have free media. All other sources in world are more reliable than chinese source which are controlled by totalitarian regime to brain wash people like you.


----------



## Beast

HariPrasad said:


> So what?
> When I quoted China times you said that it is from Taiwan. You do not have free media. All other sources in world are more reliable than chinese source which are controlled by totalitarian regime to brain wash people like you.


Which japanese, taiwanese and american website ever say any real or good news about China? Never..


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## Blue Marlin

Beast said:


> Which japanese, taiwanese and american website ever say any real or good news about China? Never..


well said. and i might add kanwa defence and want china times are not Chinese, and they love to stir things up a lot. with kanwa defence your paying to get false news from someone in Canada who knows nothing about the Chinese military.


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## Quwa

Piston_1 said:


> We are not going to buy as is.There are some changes that PN wants according their requirements.Not simple Subs but can carry nuclear missiles too.2nd strike.


I don't buy that said modifications (basically enlarge the design or the tubes for SLCM) would increase the price by $150 million per submarine.


----------



## waz

I wonder if the PN will ever go for the Qing class? The Qing launches ballistic missiles and would in my opinion provide a far more credible second strike option, even if it is three boats.


----------



## ziaulislam

Beast said:


> Lol? Can you post more authentic news? If we buy Russian Lada class sub why PN will buy from China?
> 
> Posting some bogus source from Russia combo with Japan bias stance does not cure your wounded prides. It is a fact, China is a powerhouse in naval and we do not buy any more Russian sub. If you can post a source from russian official weapon export agency rosoboexport reporting a genuine deal of China signing for Lada sub. I eat back my words
> 
> If not, sorry for ur brain fart.





HariPrasad said:


> So what?
> When I quoted China times you said that it is from Taiwan. You do not have free media. All other sources in world are more reliable than chinese source which are controlled by totalitarian regime to brain wash people like you.


*i think time will easily decide who is true but so far its obvious that china is neither buying su-35 nor any subs from russia. *su 35 news has been there for 4 years and been denied multiple times, now the news is pakistan is buying it!!!
the question is why is not china buying su35/subs?
well china has all the money and we all know russia is eager to sell, as you pointed out your self russia just sold their most advance weapon sytem that hasnt even been fully inducted by them selves yet.

answer is pretty much obvious, china doesnt want it because it doesnt think these to be better than what it has

now, to the point why china is still buying engines and advance air defence equipment.

you cannot generalize everything. e.g sweden is best in aircraft manufacturing but still uses foreign engines, Israel is excellent in avionics but still buys foreign aircrafts.* being a failure in one aspect doesnt make you a failure in everthing, like wise being best in one doesnt make you master in everything. *

today russia is best in airdefence weapons better than even usa, but i doubt they are much better in any other fields, the very reason china isnt buying from them.
*why do you think russia was buying mistral from france..? do you think they cant build a ship?

and no, there is no comparison between china and india in defence industry..its like comparing USA and pakistan*

china builds everything, India hasnt even started to build a propellar aircraft for their airforce

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## Blue Marlin

waz said:


> I wonder if the PN will ever go for the Qing class? The Qing launches ballistic missiles and would in my opinion provide a far more credible second strike option, even if it is three boats.


what slbm would you use? Pakistan has a slcm but not a slbm besides the qing class is a test ship


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## Mrc

blue marlin said:


> what slbm would you use? Pakistan has a slcm but not a slbm besides the qing class is a test ship




It would depend on whim u want to destroy ... slcm are good enuf....


For now


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## Blue Marlin

Mrc said:


> It would depend on whim u want to destroy ... slcm are good enuf....
> 
> 
> For now


sorry mate but i could not under stand what your saying.
tell me if im wrong but your ,saying slcm are good for now?


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## Mrc

And why not? The only issue is range..while SLBM can hit any corner of world SLCM would be limited to 1500 - 2000 km ...
So if you dont have any ambition beyond that range...for now... its fine


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## waz

blue marlin said:


> what slbm would you use? Pakistan has a slcm but not a slbm besides the qing class is a test ship



They have quite an extensive family of ballistic missiles. Where there is only one Babur. I'm sure a SLBM shouldn't be an an issue.

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## Neutron

Great news


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## Blue Marlin

waz said:


> They have quite an extensive family of ballistic missiles. Where there is only one Babur. I'm sure a SLBM shouldn't be an an issue.


the only have two types the j1 now decommissioned and the j-2 now operational. now that i think about it if you ask nicely you might get the j1
the image below is very interesting . its the type 32 which obviously launches an slbm but if you look toward the front of the sub it can vertically launch cruise missiles. if pakistan buys them, then boy india is going to have a lot of sleepless nights. but its confirmed that you brought the s20 sub.

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## Beast

blue marlin said:


> the only have two types the j1 now decommissioned and the j-2 now operational. now that i think about it if you ask nicely you might get the j1
> the image below is very interesting . its the type 32 which obviously launches an slbm but if you look toward the front of the sub it can vertically launch cruise missiles. if pakistan buys them, then boy india is going to have a lot of sleepless nights. but its confirmed that you brought the s20 sub.
> View attachment 247444



I do not know how stealthy these 032 sub with that huge belly hanging under? These sub are build as experiment supporting sub. They are not meant to be put into combat so accoustic signature reduction is not a top priority for these 032.
Trying to export these sub will most likely ended in failure.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

We got EIGHT ??? 2 EXTRA subs ?


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## Zarvan

waz said:


> I wonder if the PN will ever go for the Qing class? The Qing launches ballistic missiles and would in my opinion provide a far more credible second strike option, even if it is three boats.


Sir still which submarines we are still buying is not clear.I still hope we go for 4 Qing class submarines and 4 Type 41 Submarines. My sources are also telling me that Pakistan is in quite advance stage of talks for two nuclear submarines.



AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> We got EIGHT ??? 2 EXTRA subs ?


What I have is eight AIP sub's will come but we are in talks with China for two nuclear subs

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## araz

Zarvan said:


> Sir still which submarines we are still buying is not clear.I still hope we go for 4 Qing class submarines and 4 Type 41 Submarines. My sources are also telling me that Pakistan is in quite advance stage of talks for two nuclear submarines.
> 
> 
> What I have is eight AIP sub's will come but we are in talks with China for two nuclear subs


Zarvan.
People have talked to you about this. If you have information keep it to yourself till the officials confirm it. Irrespective of whether it is right or wrong the revelation of information from personal sources is contrary to the interest of the country. Do you want to harm the country's interests.
Araz

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## waz

Zarvan said:


> Sir still which submarines we are still buying is not clear.I still hope we go for 4 Qing class submarines and 4 Type 41 Submarines. My sources are also telling me that Pakistan is in quite advance stage of talks for two nuclear submarines.



Yes, four of each would be ideal. The Qing class would lay the foundation for the PN's nuclear deterrent.

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## Blue Marlin

Beast said:


> I do not know how stealthy these 032 sub with that huge belly hanging under? These sub are build as experiment supporting sub. They are not meant to be put into combat so accoustic signature reduction is not a top priority for these 032.
> Trying to export these sub will most likely ended in failure.


agreed the type 32 was meant to test slbm's and slcm's. it not even meant for export. what are the prospects of china exporting a non nuclear type 93 sub being exported? hypothetically speaking obviously.



AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> We got EIGHT ??? 2 EXTRA subs ?


6 subs will be for additional capabilities and the two other subs will replace the agosta 70's


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## Beast

blue marlin said:


> agreed the type 32 was meant to test slbm's and slcm's. it not even meant for export. what are the prospects of china exporting a non nuclear type 93 sub being exported? hypothetically speaking obviously.



Zero. SLBM are strategic weapon and most likely only PN will be the customers, that will make it too expensive for such project for export.

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## Blue Marlin

Beast said:


> Zero. SLBM are strategic weapon and most likely only PN will be the customers, that will make it too expensive for such project for export.


the type 93 is for slcm's not slbm's. this sub is very expensive about $1billion each slbm's are going to expensive. it's to early for pn to buy such weapon


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## Bilal Khan 777

This deal shall ensure that Pakistan will have a sustainable and survivable second strike capability. Once completely realised and commissioned, the Chinese origin submarines and boomers will ensure the territorial integrity, and that continuous engagement by the world forces.

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## Khanivore

Pulsar said:


> $5 billion? That's Rs 50,000 crores PKR!  Pakistan seems to be rolling in cash, having a lot of surplus funds.....or is it a gift from the Chinese?
> 
> But next year is payback time for the billions of dollars in IMF/ADB loans - $7 billion to the IMF and $10 billion to the ADB! Where's the money gonna come from? (Nawaz doesn't even pay taxes!! )
> 
> Just saying. Not my business though!


Don't worry about it, I think it's pretty much a standard question from India whenever Pakistan makes a defence deal: "How will you pay for it!?"


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## Khanivore

Pulsar said:


> Pakistan will have foreign exchange reserves of just $18.29 billion by June 30, 2015. What are your liabilities including sovereign and commercial debt? Have you thought of that?


History shows that usually these defence deals go through but nevertheless China will give favorable terms to its ally.



Great Sachin said:


> Pakistan fast becoming "Made in China"


Look inside India. Your flourishing mobile phone sector is fast turning into "Made in China" worth BILLIONS in US$. Samsung alone dropped from something like 28% share down to 21% in a few months because of stiff competition from high quality Chinese phones. At this rate India will soon become totally dependent on China and not just in communication sector. What is India doing to counter this?


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## Kompromat

Our submarine fleet will enter double digit strength.

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## Blue Marlin

Horus said:


> Our submarine fleet will enter double digit strength.


3+8=11 so yeah you're right double digit strength, agosta 70 excluded


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## Kompromat

Indeed a historic development. There is however a rumor floating around that Pakistan might also be interested in buying Turkish U-212s and upgrade them with latest Turkish systems. With fifty years of experience in operating a submarine warfare capability, the Pakistan Navy now has the strength it needs to project power. 




blue marlin said:


> 3+8=11 so yeah you're right double digit strength, agosta 70 excluded

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## Blue Marlin

Horus said:


> Indeed a historic development. There is however a rumor floating around that Pakistan might also be interested in buying Turkish U-212s and upgrade them with latest Turkish systems. With fifty years of experience in operating a submarine warfare capability, the Pakistan Navy now has the strength it needs to project power.


this is a quote from a website
"
*Turkish industry officials have told Defense News they are ready to offer Pakistan Type-209s if asked. 

Turkey, one of Pakistan's closest allies and strongest defense industry partners, shelved its plans to upgrade its six Type-209/1200 Atilay class subs with AIP systems in favor of acquiring the Type-214. 

However, Pakistani defense industry officials have said Islamabad would prefer a newer design.*
"

but you may be right to the extent that they are buying subs from them but which sub is the question and the answer is the type 214. the very sub Pakistan was interested in.*"Pakistan almost signed a deal for three Type-214 subs in 2008, raises hopes of Pakistan-Turkish submarine cooperation.*" this deal is golden as turkey has all of the info/tech and turkey and pakistan being bros, tot will some easily and at mates rates should result in a deal


Pakistan To Buy 8 Submarines From China

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## Peaceful Civilian

Zarvan said:


> Sir still which submarines we are still buying is not clear.I still hope we go for 4 Qing class submarines and 4 Type 41 Submarines. My sources are also telling me that Pakistan is in quite advance stage of talks for two nuclear submarines.
> 
> 
> What I have is eight AIP sub's will come but we are in talks with China for two nuclear subs


We dont need nuclear powered submarine. India is just few steps away from us. Diesel powered sub is enough to tackle any threat.


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## Blue Marlin

*UPDATE*

*‘China to help Pakistan build 8 submarines with technology transfer’ *








*BEIJING -* China will build in Karachi Shipyard four of eight submarines that it is selling to Pakistan, reported China daily on Tuesday, quoting Minister for Defence Production Rana Tanveer Hussain.


The deal for the acquisition of submarines from China has been finalised and four of them would be built in Pakistan. Construction of the submarines would simultaneously begin in Pakistan and China. Beijing would transfer the technology to Islamabad for submarine construction. China and Pakistan signed 51 agreements and memorandums of understanding worth $46 billion during President Xi Jinping’s visit to Pakistan early month this year.


More than 30 agreements are designed to boost the Pakistan-China Economic Corridor project connecting Kashgar in China’s Xinjiang Uygur autonomous region to Gwadar Port on the Arabian Sea. As the early results of the planned corridor, 25 projects are scheduled to be completed in the next three to five years.

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## Raj Guru

Congrats my Pakistani Friends !
i am happy for PN as long as they dont attack on India. 

Let's Grow to gather as Brothers and Friends

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## Indus Falcon

Blue Marlin said:


> 3+8=11 so yeah you're right double digit strength, agosta 70 excluded


Kindly elaborate. I don't understand, why the sarcasm?

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## Blue Marlin

Indus Falcon said:


> Kindly elaborate. I don't understand, why the sarcasm?


it's common sense. right now pakistan has 5 subs, 3 a-90's and 2 a-70's. The 2 a-70's are old and are nearing retirement so that leaves pakistan with 3 subs. now pakistan is getting 8 subs. now 8+3=11

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## Indus Falcon

Blue Marlin said:


> it's common sense. right now pakistan has 5 subs, 3 a-90's and 2 a-70's. The 2 a-70's are old and are nearing retirement so that leaves pakistan with 3 subs. now pakistan is getting 8 subs. now 8+3=11


Thank you for the deflection, but my question was "why the sarcasm?"

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## Blue Marlin

Indus Falcon said:


> Thank you for the deflection, but my question was "why the sarcasm?"


i must have had a bad day then, we all have them. anyhow.... did you watch the pakistan and England match?

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## Indus Falcon

Blue Marlin said:


> i must have had a bad day then, we all have them. anyhow.... did you watch the pakistan and England match?


No problem bro, we all have those days. 

Kind Regards

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## 井柏然

S-20


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## zheng2

MAJESTICAL said:


> Well Ty Sir
> 
> Will Pakistan Navy be getting Anti-ship missiles along this deal?
> 
> Will Pakistan Navy be getting Anti-ship missiles along this deal?


I do not think so...the subs maybe TYPE 039A made for PAKN,S-20 or S-20A?
anti-ship missiles are not allowed for exporting,maybe until 2019?


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## Bilal Khan 777

zheng2 said:


> I do not think so...the subs maybe TYPE 039A made for PAKN,S-20 or S-20A?
> anti-ship missiles are not allowed for exporting,maybe until 2019?



Your comment shows that you have no insight into the Chinese Sub deal, or have any idea on the Pak-Chin nexus. . Every weapon system is bought complete with the package that it can deliver. The sub has a complete capability of maritime and land interdiction using various options, plus it shall integrate many options from Pakistan, including weapons and type of propulsion modules.

Pakistan already has many Chinese anti ship missiles, which can be launched from both sea and air platforms.

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## MastanKhan

Indus Falcon said:


> No problem bro, we all have those days.
> 
> Kind Regards



Hi,

Janab--tusi tay einvein eee bachay nu kut chadia aiy----oh wee kehnda aiy---aba jee mein ki keeta aiy---.

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## 90ArsalanLeo

When will these submarines be delivered there is no rough timeline given?
Will these submarines have vertical launch tubes for SLBM & AIP?
Are all the submarines diesel-electric or some of them are Nuclear?

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## Green Angel

Mysterious Submarine deal no one knows anything about this deal...


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## ZAC1

?


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## Djinn

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> Your comment shows that you have no insight into the Chinese Sub deal, or have any idea on the Pak-Chin nexus. . Every weapon system is bought complete with the package that it can deliver. The sub has a complete capability of maritime and land interdiction using various options, plus it shall integrate many options from Pakistan, including weapons and type of propulsion modules.
> 
> Pakistan already has many Chinese anti ship missiles, which can be launched from both sea and air platforms.


Not that i cave into rumors easily, especially when they are blatantly dismissive of Chinese technological capabilities. However that said, can you please share something, perhaps your personal views about the acoustic signature of S-20 , i mean if Pakistan is going for S-20 then obviously Pakistan would have evaluated this point at some level, which should repel the US floated notion that the "Chinese are nosier" than the rest and therefore easy to detect? @MastanKhan Plz share your views as well.

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## SvenSvensonov

Djinn said:


> "Chinese are nosier"



This is a reference to Chinese nuclear submarines which lack a number of quieting techniques and systems found on modern Western designs.







They aren't as bad as is often reported, but they're still noisier then our, Russia or European nuke designs.

If you'd like a more in-depth answer on the subject, I did so here - http://www.*********************.com/forums/threads/the-last-of-the-conventionals.1065/#post-4526

It was NOT a reference to Chinese DE or AIP submarines which are as lethal as they come and as quiet as anything Russia is fielding.
















Remember, the USN actually has experience cataloging the acoustic signatures of Chinese submarines. We know how loud or quiet their nuke boats are and we know that their AIP and DE submarines are nightmare fuel for anyone willing to underestimate their quality.

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## Djinn

SvenSvensonov said:


> This is a reference to Chinese nuclear submarines which lack a number of quieting techniques and systems found on modern Western designs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They aren't as bad as is often reported, but they're still noisier then our, Russia or European nuke designs.
> 
> If you'd like a more in-depth answer on the subject, I did so here - http://www.*********************.com/forums/threads/the-last-of-the-conventionals.1065/#post-4526
> 
> It was NOT a reference to Chinese DE or AIP submarines which are as lethal as they come and as quiet as anything Russia is fielding.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Remember, the USN actually has experience cataloging the acoustic signatures of Chinese submarines. We know how loud or quiet their nuke boats are and we know that their AIP and DE submarines are nightmare fuel for anyone willing to underestimate their quality.


I was aware of the "Nosier" notions relevance to the Chinese SSBN's. However if i remember correctly i came across this chart which claimed that even their conventional subs are nosier as compared to others from around that globe and as i mentioned earlier not that i believe these rumors from Chinese antagonists, but i would like to know how well S-20 fares in this category when compared to the western subs?


----------



## MastanKhan

Djinn said:


> Not that i cave into rumors easily, especially when they are blatantly dismissive of Chinese technological capabilities. However that said, can you please share something, perhaps your personal views about the acoustic signature of S-20 , i mean if Pakistan is going for S-20 then obviously Pakistan would have evaluated this point at some level, which should repel the US floated notion that the "Chinese are nosier" than the rest and therefore easy to detect? @MastanKhan Plz share your views as well.




Hi,

As Sven mentioned that their nucs are nosiy---but those with AIP are different---how quiet are they---I would guess very quiet---.

There maybe other things available on those subs that would not be possible otherwise.

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## Green Angel

*Yea,These submarines are very noisy, thatswhy

UNCLE SAM has fall down from his Chair in WHITE HOUSE,when they hear that CHINA is making Huge quantity of Submarines,who can change US MAP........  .*

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## Blue Marlin

SvenSvensonov said:


> This one? The S-20 is an export variant of the Type 039a or Yuan class SSK (SSK refers to ocean-going diesel-electric submarine, while SSC is littoral DE sub. Pakistan's Agosta-B submarines would fit the SSC designation based on their size, displacement and endurance).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've seen comparisions between nuclear boats, but not SSK or SSCs.
> 
> 
> 
> Quieter then Western Nuke boats in some situations, noisier in others. A Virginia class SSN would give a DE sub a run for their money in littoral waters and USS Jimmy Carter would be near silent in the same setting - as Jimmy, despite being 100feet longer then the other two Seawolfs, was designed to operate in shallow waters clandestinely for special missions operations and is fitted with some systems to make its operations easier like bow thrusters.
> 
> Of course these are nuclear submarines. Western DE and AIP subs (not counting Russian ones) tend to be smaller and more suited for coastal waters.
> 
> Ula or Norway:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And Gotland of Sweden would be nearly invisible when operating at neutral buoyancy to ambush a target:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Even moving, and taking advantage of the local underwater topography, these are slow enough and quiet enough to avoid detection by all but the most alert adversary.
> 
> These aren't really comparable to something like the S-20 though, as their roles differ. Even the vaunted Type 212, among, if not the best conventional design around today, is more coastal oriented and is roughly 1000 to 2000 tons smaller in displacement then a Kilo class submarine:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In the class of Kilo or Type 039a, you'd have the Shortfin Barracuda:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And S-80 - an enlarged Scorpene class submarine:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But we don't yet know how they'll compare with Russian or Chinese designs are they aren't yet commissioned.
> 
> There aren't too many comparable Western designs to the deep-water, ocean going AIP and DE submarines produced by Japan, China and Russia and most Western designs are either coastal oriented or nuclear.
> 
> Are the S-20 or Type 039a as quiet as an Ula or Gotland class submarine? No. Is it a fair comparison comparing an SSC with an SSK? No.
> 
> If you want to compare the Type 039a, do so with the Russian Kilo or Lada (an improved Kilo)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or Japan's Soryu:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Both are modern designs that are very quiet. Type 039a would be comparable to both, but I'd give Lada the edge.


didn't the type 39 sub follow uss kitty hawk a while back? it was 5km away and was not spotted until it surfaced. it was well with in striking range. also i find it quiet anoying that people think china produces crap stuff. i went to a trade show in china last year and i was looking at purchasing some motherboards for my server room set up. i asked how much it cost for x amount and the guy said to me how much do you want it to cost? ie the more you pay the better the quality. i ended up paying £55.00 per board and its as good as the asus equivelant but at half the price

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## The SC

*Type 039A submarine*

The *Type 039A submarine* (NATO reporting name: *Yuan-class*) is a class of diesel-electric submarine in China's People's Liberation Army Navy.[4] It is China's first AIP powered submarine and presumed to be one of the quietest diesel-electric submarine classes in service.[5] This class is the successor of the Type 039 submarine. The official Chinese designation is 039A as the ship is based on the 039 class, but as the 039A has very little resemblance to the 039 it is commonly referred to as the *Type 041*. The class is designed to replace the aging Type 033 _Romeo_ and the older Type 035 submarines that previously formed the backbone of the conventional submarine force.

According to an early assessment by the US Naval Institute, the Yuan class was primarily designed as "an anti-ship cruise missile (ASCM) platform capable of hiding submerged for long periods of time in difficult to access shallow littorals.".[6] However, another assessment by USNI includes an open-ocean capability which can be utilized beyond coastal waters. Also updated was its role within China's naval fleet, and as of August 2015 it is considered to be a more traditional attack submarine, with a secondary ASCM role.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_039A_submarine#cite_note-5


It can also be this:

*IMPROVED VESRION OF THE YUAN CLASS SSK SUBMARINE APPEARED, THE QING CLASS AIP DIESEL/ELECTRIC SUB*

http://www.jeffhead.com/redseadragon/2012.htm

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## Bilal Khan 777

if you observe closely, we are talking about two different submarine programs potentially.

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

The thing with the U S navy is that it won't let you know what happened---. Did the A C carrier knew that the sub was there and did not want to do anything----because nothing needed to be done.

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## Tank131

The Kitty Hawk was being trailed by a Song Class. Yuan, some have said rivals Kilo in how quiet it is.


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## Bilal Khan 777

submarines in shallow waters are notorious, let alone the Arabian sea. It is next to impossible to detect them, and its mostly due to environmental characteristics. USN is well aware of their vulnerability is shallow waters, and that is why countries like Pakistan invest so heavily in the SSK programs. With 05 Agosta class, and 08 Chinese SSKs, Pakistan Navy is poised to have a viable deterred to protect its SLOCs. However, it is quite possible that there maybe additional platforms planned, to implement a "second strike" capability, and to match the rising Indian designs for boomers in their fleet.

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## Blue Marlin

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> if you observe closely, we are talking about two different submarine programs potentially.


i knew it. not all off them will be a second strike vessel. at first i would have thought they wanted 6 but ordered 8 to replace the a-70's leaving 6. where 3 would be for usual missions whilst the other 3 would be for second strike on rotations. but now i see it as 4 for typical missions and 4 for 24/7 second strike patrol the second strike ships would be larger and powered via striling aip as will the other 4 but in the future a nuclear propulsion moduel will be added to subs of the same hull.
time will tell and i have been told preliminary work has already begun in karachi and in wuchang. give it about 18 months for it to launch

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## Tipu7

Sir,
Let the curtain remain



Bilal Khan 777 said:


> if you observe closely, we are talking about two different submarine programs potentially.





Blue Marlin said:


> i knew it. not all off them will be a second strike vessel. at first i would have thought they wanted 6 but ordered 8 to replace the a-70's leaving 6. where 3 would be for usual missions whilst the other 3 would be for second strike on rotations. but now i see it as 4 for typical missions and 4 for 24/7 second strike patrol the second strike ships would be larger and powered via striling aip as will the other 4 but in the future a nuclear propulsion moduel will be added to subs of the same hull.
> time will tell and i have been told preliminary work has already begun in karachi and in wuchang. give it about 18 months for it to launch

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

In 1976-78----during an excercize in the arabian seaa between the U S and pak navy---the U S battle group could not find the pakistani submarine lying in wait for the A/C carrier---the carrier commander got restless and took off full speed----drove right on top of the sub----.

People need to understand---that at sea / ocean---ships take known routes---the mapped areas----otherwise the fear of running into a mount in the middle of the ocean does materialize---as happened to either one of the U S ships or a sub---not too long ago.

So---the subs can lay down and wait for the victim to go by

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## Bilal Khan 777

Blue Marlin said:


> i knew it. not all off them will be a second strike vessel. at first i would have thought they wanted 6 but ordered 8 to replace the a-70's leaving 6. where 3 would be for usual missions whilst the other 3 would be for second strike on rotations. but now i see it as 4 for typical missions and 4 for 24/7 second strike patrol the second strike ships would be larger and powered via striling aip as will the other 4 but in the future a nuclear propulsion moduel will be added to subs of the same hull.
> time will tell and i have been told preliminary work has already begun in karachi and in wuchang. give it about 18 months for it to launch



This is pure speculation on your part. The 8 submarines that have been ordered are all SSKs, deploying AIP. In performance, they are similar to Russian Kilo class, only that they have been customised to be compatible with existing weapon suites.

The Agosta-70s are going through a life enhancement and system upgrade program. I don't see them leaving service anytime soon.



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> In 1976-78----during an excercize in the arabian seaa between the U S and pak navy---the U S battle group could not find the pakistani submarine lying in wait for the A/C carrier---the carrier commander got restless and took off full speed----drove right on top of the sub----.
> 
> People need to understand---that at sea / ocean---ships take known routes---the mapped areas----otherwise the fear of running into a mount in the middle of the ocean does materialize---as happened to either one of the U S ships or a sub---not too long ago.
> 
> So---the subs can lay down and wait for the victim to go by



For submarine captains, there is his sub, other person's sub, and rest are targets.



Tipu7 said:


> Sir,
> Let the curtain remain


The curtain remains.



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The thing with the U S navy is that it won't let you know what happened---. Did the A C carrier knew that the sub was there and did not want to do anything----because nothing needed to be done.



This is a cat and mouse game that has been going on in Bering straits and south china sea for decades. It has also happened many times in Arabian sea, but our subs remain a potent threat, and all littoral operating commanders knows how devastating a SSK is in shallow waters.

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## Blue Marlin

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> This is pure speculation on your part. The 8 submarines that have been ordered are all SSKs, deploying AIP. In performance, they are similar to Russian Kilo class, only that they have been customised to be compatible with existing weapon suites.
> 
> The Agosta-70s are going through a life enhancement and system upgrade program. I don't see them leaving service anytime soon.


yes it is speculation i have the idea of 2 subs types last year in late febuary but in march just a month before it was announced. the source was tight lipped on the sub types but told me they will be building 8 subs which are "larger than western aip subs" so i would suspect somthing in the size of the kilo.
to be clear i was not told they would be 2 sub types only they would be larger than usual and a rough time frame which best kept quiet for now.
since the a90b's are likely to go in for an upgrade with turkish kit i would suspect it would have turkish c&c systems also the 8 other subs would have the same c&c's


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## MastanKhan

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> This is pure speculation on your part. The 8 submarines that have been ordered are all SSKs, deploying AIP. In performance, they are similar to Russian Kilo class, only that they have been customised to be compatible with existing weapon suites.
> 
> The Agosta-70s are going through a life enhancement and system upgrade program. I don't see them leaving service anytime soon.
> 
> 
> 
> For submarine captains, there is his sub, other person's sub, and rest are targets.
> 
> 
> The curtain remains.
> 
> 
> 
> This is a cat and mouse game that has been going on in Bering straits and south china sea for decades. It has also happened many times in Arabian sea, but our subs remain a potent threat, and all littoral operating commanders knows how devastating a SSK is in shallow waters.



Hi,

I had a retd los angeles class submariner work with me around 7 years ago---and he was retd for awhile---. While we were talking---he say---" just take my word for it---the MLU'd los anageles class subs are so advanced that you won't believe what they can do ".

And I could only say " Damn ".

On our side people don't realize for how long have we had submarines as compared to others in asia.

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## .



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## Mangus Ortus Novem

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I had a retd los angeles class submariner work with me around 7 years ago---and he was retd for awhile---. While we were talking---he say---" just take my word for it---the MLU'd los anageles class subs are so advanced that you won't believe what they can do ".
> 
> And I could only say " Damn ".
> 
> On our side people don't realize for how long have we had submarines as compared to others in asia.



Dear MK, why it is difficult for some to accept that US is leagues ahead of everyone. And that means everyone one worth their salt. 

Pak must never let its relationship go under the bust either buy negligence or emotion. 

Americans can be hard nosed and appear to overbearing... but once you build rapport with them they are always open minded. Always!

Coming back the PNS what is your view of quality of quanitity? 

PNS can acquire Turkish U boast which they want to off load... pennies for dollars really. Then Chinese one. 

This ToT business is always elusive.. how much is ever transfered?

Sub surface fleet can mitigate handicaps of larger surface platforms.. of course, this depend on PNS doctorine and training levels...

Your kind insights will be enlightening. Thanks!

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## Jason Zhao

I do not think we will sell bad subs to Pakistan, I trust our goverment..

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## MastanKhan

Sinopakfriend said:


> Dear MK, why it is difficult for some to accept that US is leagues ahead of everyone. And that means everyone one worth their salt.
> 
> Pak must never let its relationship go under the bust either buy negligence or emotion.
> 
> Americans can be hard nosed and appear to overbearing... but once you build rapport with them they are always open minded. Always!
> 
> Coming back the PNS what is your view of quality of quanitity?
> 
> PNS can acquire Turkish U boast which they want to off load... pennies for dollars really. Then Chinese one.
> 
> This ToT business is always elusive.. how much is ever transfered?
> 
> Sub surface fleet can mitigate handicaps of larger surface platforms.. of course, this depend on PNS doctorine and training levels...
> 
> Your kind insights will be enlightening. Thanks!




Hi,

I am for the U boats---. The thing with the U boats is that they are hidden assets---operate unseen---but their true strength stays hidden from the public eye.

So---for two emotional enemies like india and pakistan---it is the visible forces that is the primary deterrent---because when the U boats strike----it is basically the last ditch effort---and once their area of operation is known---it would be very difficult to protect them.

Next is the ocean geography of pakistan vs india---. It is such that a heavy strike aircraft can do a massive amount of damage to the major indian cities on the coastline with standoff weapons from a ' comparatively ' secure distance and also keep the sea lanes secure.

As well as forcing the enemy to move its ' air ' assets from other battle fronts to towards the coastline cities.

Next the surface fleet is more important---I would rather have 3 less submarines and have 30 JH7B's for naval; strike missions and and 3 frigates in the 5000 tonnage range.

I state again---what is visible to the eye is a bigger deterrant---specially for the politicians and the public---. The public sentiment does not comprehend the silence and stealth of the submarines---. For them---if they cannot see it---it does not exist kind of mindset.

The Turkish boats would be a force multiplier if they can be had at the right price---.

As for the sub fleet---pakistan has been operating it for a much longer time than its adversary and many other sub operators in the region.

The first step of TOT is the exposure to a technically superior equipment---. Just looking at it and understanding its functions, utilizing it and using it to the best of its abilities and capabilities is the first objective of TOT----.

So---a part of technology is already transferred when I take possession of a newer equipment---this is the easiest part of the transfer to retain---to see the building and working and operations and maintaining and servicing of the equipment.

You don't need to use the transfer of technology---like building a submarine on your own but to go thru the process and go thru the BASIC FUNDAMENTALS of the process is an achievement in itself.

To your question why is it difficult for people to accept the U S is real power---it is because the U S does not show its real power---it does not project it like other nations do---there was a time that you would never see a military convoy on the U S main interstate roads---hardly ever---a rarity---.

And it again comes down to the ' unseen ' power---it is not a deterrent---. If the U S had shown all it military assets on 4th of July parades maybe Saddam Hussein would not have started the 1st gulf war and other nations would have hesitated as well.

Like people have no concept that the U S can jam all the electronic activity of a nation like pakistan or other similar nations as well---so when they have no concept---and cannot accept the relative truth---they do not accept the true strength of the U S.

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## X-2.




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## jamal18

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> submarines in shallow waters are notorious, let alone the Arabian sea. It is next to impossible to detect them, and its mostly due to environmental characteristics. USN is well aware of their vulnerability is shallow waters, and that is why countries like Pakistan invest so heavily in the SSK programs. With 05 Agosta class, and 08 Chinese SSKs, Pakistan Navy is poised to have a viable deterred to protect its SLOCs. However, it is quite possible that there maybe additional platforms planned, to implement a "second strike" capability, and to match the rising Indian designs for boomers in their fleet.



Guys, I am a little confused. Submarines are less effective and more vulnerable in shallow water. This is why the Persian gulf is a bad place for them. Have I missed something?


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## Woz Ahmed

Am sure I will be shot down for this, but do we need 8 subs at between $4-6 billion at the cost of investing in our people with health, education and water?

Defending our borders is paramount, but are there better ways to do it ?

People are risking their lives to emigrate, suggests we have the balance wrong.

New shiny imported toys don't make us a great nation, a state that educates and supports its population does.

Did you know in 34 years our population will reach 300 million and rising, education and health services are the only real population control, there is a direct correlation.

Anyway, I doubt this post will make any difference, but everything has a knock on effect and I hope I have raised some awareness.

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## SSG commandos




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## jamal18

Woz Ahmed said:


> Am sure I will be shot down for this, but do we need 8 subs at between $4-6 billion at the cost of investing in our people with health, education and water?
> 
> Defending our borders is paramount, but are there better ways to do it ?
> 
> People are risking their lives to emigrate, suggests we have the balance wrong.
> 
> New shiny imported toys don't make us a great nation, a state that educates and supports its population does.
> 
> Did you know in 34 years our population will reach 300 million and rising, education and health services are the only real population control, there is a direct correlation.
> 
> Anyway, I doubt this post will make any difference, but everything has a knock on effect and I hope I have raised some awareness.



I am with you on this one.

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## Mangus Ortus Novem

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I am for the U boats---. The thing with the U boats is that they are hidden assets---operate unseen---but their true strength stays hidden from the public eye.
> 
> So---for two emotional enemies like india and pakistan---it is the visible forces that is the primary deterrent---because when the U boats strike----it is basically the last ditch effort---and once their area of operation is known---it would be very difficult to protect them.
> 
> Next is the ocean geography of pakistan vs india---. It is such that a heavy strike aircraft can do a massive amount of damage to the major indian cities on the coastline with standoff weapons from a ' comparatively ' secure distance and also keep the sea lanes secure.
> 
> As well as forcing the enemy to move its ' air ' assets from other battle fronts to towards the coastline cities.
> 
> Next the surface fleet is more important---I would rather have 3 less submarines and have 30 JH7B's for naval; strike missions and and 3 frigates in the 5000 tonnage range.
> 
> I state again---what is visible to the eye is a bigger deterrant---specially for the politicians and the public---. The public sentiment does not comprehend the silence and stealth of the submarines---. For them---if they cannot see it---it does not exist kind of mindset.
> 
> The Turkish boats would be a force multiplier if they can be had at the right price---.
> 
> As for the sub fleet---pakistan has been operating it for a much longer time than its adversary and many other sub operators in the region.
> 
> The first step of TOT is the exposure to a technically superior equipment---. Just looking at it and understanding its functions, utilizing it and using it to the best of its abilities and capabilities is the first objective of TOT----.
> 
> So---a part of technology is already transferred when I take possession of a newer equipment---this is the easiest part of the transfer to retain---to see the building and working and operations and maintaining and servicing of the equipment.
> 
> You don't need to use the transfer of technology---like building a submarine on your own but to go thru the process and go thru the BASIC FUNDAMENTALS of the process is an achievement in itself.
> 
> To your question why is it difficult for people to accept the U S is real power---it is because the U S does not show its real power---it does not project it like other nations do---there was a time that you would never see a military convoy on the U S main interstate roads---hardly ever---a rarity---.
> 
> And it again comes down to the ' unseen ' power---it is not a deterrent---. If the U S had shown all it military assets on 4th of July parades maybe Saddam Hussein would not have started the 1st gulf war and other nations would have hesitated as well.
> 
> Like people have no concept that the U S can jam all the electronic activity of a nation like pakistan or other similar nations as well---so when they have no concept---and cannot accept the relative truth---they do not accept the true strength of the U S.



Mr. MK, a sincere thank you is an honest expression here. 

Your elaboration has provided a better understanding... of theatre of operations. Especially the sentimentality aspect and political pandering. 

IF PNS can acquire Turkish U boats on a reasonable price, even without the AIP, this would have extreme long term benefits in positive sense. 

Your repeated assertion for a long period for a heavy strike platform is logical, really.

PAC can make them in house...even assemblying them in house must be a top priority... Chinese JH is the best option not only from operational capability but something to be build upon later. Cheap as well.

Why? It creates jobs... people working at PAC get a better life. Their kids go to better schools and are exposed to aviation. Next generation nurtured from cradle. Hence my querry for ToT. But your elaboration is certainly valid and logical.

PAF must not waste resources on SU35... IMHO though.

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## Quwa

Woz Ahmed said:


> Am sure I will be shot down for this, but do we need 8 subs at between $4-6 billion at the cost of investing in our people with health, education and water?
> 
> Defending our borders is paramount, but are there better ways to do it ?
> 
> People are risking their lives to emigrate, suggests we have the balance wrong.
> 
> New shiny imported toys don't make us a great nation, a state that educates and supports its population does.
> 
> Did you know in 34 years our population will reach 300 million and rising, education and health services are the only real population control, there is a direct correlation.
> 
> Anyway, I doubt this post will make any difference, but everything has a knock on effect and I hope I have raised some awareness.


What difference would cutting defence expenditure make when Pakistani political leaders will squander the re-allocated money in corruption and inefficient spending?

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## Aali Shafi

The Chinese submarines can take the marines deep inside the sea but there is no assurance of bringing them back on the surface.


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## The SC

jamal18 said:


> Guys, I am a little confused. Submarines are less effective and more vulnerable in shallow water. This is why the Persian gulf is a bad place for them. Have I missed something?


It depends on the size of the submarine, midget subs are perfect for the shallow watters of the persian gulf for example..



Woz Ahmed said:


> Am sure I will be shot down for this, but do we need 8 subs at between $4-6 billion at the cost of investing in our people with health, education and water?
> 
> Defending our borders is paramount, but are there better ways to do it ?
> 
> People are risking their lives to emigrate, suggests we have the balance wrong.
> 
> New shiny imported toys don't make us a great nation, a state that educates and supports its population does.
> 
> Did you know in 34 years our population will reach 300 million and rising, education and health services are the only real population control, there is a direct correlation.
> 
> Anyway, I doubt this post will make any difference, but everything has a knock on effect and I hope I have raised some awareness.


There must be some equilibrium between Defence and Education, health and so on, because of the neighborhood, the more peaceful it is, the less defence budget a state needs, and vice versa, the more agitated and instable the neighborhood is, the more money has to be spent on defence.. Pakistan belongs to the second case.. There are problems in Afghanistan, problems on Iranian borders, problems in Kashemir and with India and inside agitation that is dying out... So the strongest Pakistan becomes. the more it can invest in its social programs, hence generating a positive cycle between the economy and defence; Once defence of the land is assured in these circumstances, the economy will benefit and bigger budgets will be allocated to education, health, R&D, infrastructure and every facet of the civilian life, because the country will feel safe and people will work , study, do business with a feeling of security..

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## Baidar Bakht

Woz Ahmed said:


> Am sure I will be shot down for this, but do we need 8 subs at between $4-6 billion at the cost of investing in our people with health, education and water?
> 
> Defending our borders is paramount, but are there better ways to do it ?
> 
> People are risking their lives to emigrate, suggests we have the balance wrong.
> 
> New shiny imported toys don't make us a great nation, a state that educates and supports its population does.
> 
> Did you know in 34 years our population will reach 300 million and rising, education and health services are the only real population control, there is a direct correlation.
> 
> Anyway, I doubt this post will make any difference, but everything has a knock on effect and I hope I have raised some awareness.



Why people always want to cut the military spending and use that money on health, education etc?? WHAT ABOUT THE REST OF THE MONEY WE SPEND?

Why should we leave these subs? What about the Metro\Orange train projects?

Military is the least corrupt institute of Pak and people are always complaining about there spending. I am not a fanboy I just prefer a strong defence so that we can work on our country without worrying about foreign disturbance. I will prefer living in this Pak rather than Pak that you will create by ignoring our defence.

The thing is, we should start managing our resources. I ACCEPT THAT WE NEED TO FOCUS ON EDUCATION, BUT I DO HAVE A STRONG COMPLAIN ON THE RESOURCES YOU WANT TO USE FOR BUILDING A BETTER PAKISTAN.

We need to take our defense seriously, specially in our region and our current problems with our neighbors we cant ignore our defence. Yes we should keep an eye on military spending too but not it this way. 

no offence.

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## Mangus Ortus Novem

Quwa said:


> What difference would cutting defence expenditure make when Pakistani political leaders will squander the re-allocated money in corruption and inefficient spending?



Dear Q, your analysises and other rational balanced posts have been great source of education and insights along with some highly analytical and capable people here on PDF. 

By the look of numbers Pak does wonders with its defensive capabilities with meager funds it has. IF one takes a step back and does the math... is it not simply astounding? Corruption is there- it really started in the 70s.

Corruption is the cancer of human society- globally. 

If a rational matrix is applied then the ratio of Pak corruption in Asia migt not be that bad. 
One is no way rationalising this disease. Never. But putting things in perspective. 

Young and bright people like yourself, will change your country. 

Once again your country is on the launh pad of taking off. 
A sustained growth of even 5% over period of a decade... will do wonders. 

An economy, a country and its resource pool i.e. your country- is bound to be top 15 economies in the world. This is no day dreaming or well wishing- cold fact. Even Wall Street knows it. Just control your population. It has exploded enough.

Now what can deliver this 'miracle'? 

A hybrid solution. 

Franco in Spain and strong man in S Korea laid the foundations for industrialisation. 
Both regimes were corrupt to the core and cronism.

In your country's case... current hybrid governance model is the key. It is in early stages, hence no visible results. Give it a five year run. Now your politicians have an almost 10 year run at governing... if nothing to show sustains..then expect a more robust hybrid model.

Why don't you use you powers of analysis and come up with a model that would be helpful to your country.

Since you have an immature political/feudal class and quite well developed éstablishment'... what would be the best form of governance (not the government) will be best for your country's needs?

Do forgive for such a long, boring post. No harm in requesting for such an analysis from talented people like yourself? 

IMHO PNS must go for Turkish U-boats at bottom price and only upgrade them with Turkish BMS. As you are doing with A-90s. Do not waste money on German AIP-depsite them being the best.

Let your naval engineers open up the older A-70s and play around and come up with local design. Same for surface fleet. Build larger hulls... KSE has all the infrastructure eating rust... Just build your own. Desing and Build. Even when they are without powerplant or any systems.. Build your own. This the only way. Your friend China did it. You helped them in those early days. Do it for yourself.

You can do it!

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## _NOBODY_

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> if you observe closely, we are talking about two different submarine programs potentially.


By second submarine program do you mean Type 212 or something else ?


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## Basel

TheGreatOne said:


> By second submarine program do you mean Type 212 or something else ?



I think it means Type-209s. It will not be wise as they are old and India operates similar model.


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## _NOBODY_

Basel said:


> I think it means Type-209s. It will not be wise as they are old and India operates similar model.


India operates Type-209.


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## Basel

TheGreatOne said:


> India operates Type-209.



Yes I know but they are little different from Turkish ones but tech is same.


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## _NOBODY_

Basel said:


> Yes I know but they are little different from Turkish ones but tech is same.



I think we should go for 1 or 2 nuclear-powered submarines because a massive sea based second nuclear strike capability should be our priority.



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I am for the U boats---. The thing with the U boats is that they are hidden assets---operate unseen---but their true strength stays hidden from the public eye.
> 
> So---for two emotional enemies like india and pakistan---it is the visible forces that is the primary deterrent---because when the U boats strike----it is basically the last ditch effort---and once their area of operation is known---it would be very difficult to protect them.
> 
> Next is the ocean geography of pakistan vs india---. It is such that a heavy strike aircraft can do a massive amount of damage to the major indian cities on the coastline with standoff weapons from a ' comparatively ' secure distance and also keep the sea lanes secure.
> 
> As well as forcing the enemy to move its ' air ' assets from other battle fronts to towards the coastline cities.
> 
> Next the surface fleet is more important---I would rather have 3 less submarines and have 30 JH7B's for naval; strike missions and and 3 frigates in the 5000 tonnage range.
> 
> I state again---what is visible to the eye is a bigger deterrant---specially for the politicians and the public---. The public sentiment does not comprehend the silence and stealth of the submarines---. For them---if they cannot see it---it does not exist kind of mindset.
> 
> The Turkish boats would be a force multiplier if they can be had at the right price---.
> 
> As for the sub fleet---pakistan has been operating it for a much longer time than its adversary and many other sub operators in the region.
> 
> The first step of TOT is the exposure to a technically superior equipment---. Just looking at it and understanding its functions, utilizing it and using it to the best of its abilities and capabilities is the first objective of TOT----.
> 
> So---a part of technology is already transferred when I take possession of a newer equipment---this is the easiest part of the transfer to retain---to see the building and working and operations and maintaining and servicing of the equipment.
> 
> You don't need to use the transfer of technology---like building a submarine on your own but to go thru the process and go thru the BASIC FUNDAMENTALS of the process is an achievement in itself.
> 
> To your question why is it difficult for people to accept the U S is real power---it is because the U S does not show its real power---it does not project it like other nations do---there was a time that you would never see a military convoy on the U S main interstate roads---hardly ever---a rarity---.
> 
> And it again comes down to the ' unseen ' power---it is not a deterrent---. If the U S had shown all it military assets on 4th of July parades maybe Saddam Hussein would not have started the 1st gulf war and other nations would have hesitated as well.
> 
> Like people have no concept that the U S can jam all the electronic activity of a nation like pakistan or other similar nations as well---so when they have no concept---and cannot accept the relative truth---they do not accept the true strength of the U S.


I respect your opinion on JH-7B but a strike fighter like JH-7 requires bodyguards because it cannot defend itself from the enemy whereas Flankers have the capability to defend themselves. China operates a lot of fighters which why their other capabilities are not compromised while assigning bodyguards for JH-7, this is not the case with us as we don't operate that many fighters which why assigning bodyguards for JH-7 would compromise our other capability/capabilities. That is why I prefer Flankers(Su-34 or J-16) over JH-7.

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## MastanKhan

Sinopakfriend said:


> I think we should go for 1 or 2 nuclear-powered submarines because a massive sea based second nuclear strike capability should be our priority.
> 
> 
> I respect your opinion on JH-7B but a strike fighter like JH-7 requires bodyguards because it cannot defend itself from the enemy whereas Flankers have the capability to defend themselves. China operates a lot of fighters which why their other capabilities are not compromised while assigning bodyguards for JH-7, this is not the case with us as we don't operate that many fighters which why assigning bodyguards for JH-7 would compromise our other capability/capabilities. That is why I prefer Flankers(Su-34 or J-16) over JH-7.



Hi,

When you bring out the SU34 or the J16---inadvertantly you are talking about the JH7B---. Because it the the least expensive in the line of similar capability aircraft and without any restrictions.

Many an F16---during the gulf wars had F15's as their escorts on special missions---. The JH7B can be armed with a growler type capability and missiles as well. If you put a new EW suite you can have the ability to launch all the weapons inyour arsenal.

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## Beast

Aali Shafi said:


> The Chinese submarines can take the marines deep inside the sea but there is no assurance of bringing them back on the surface.


Fake pakistanis, how much RAW paid you?

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## Mangus Ortus Novem

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> When you bring out the SU34 or the J16---inadvertantly you are talking about the JH7B---. Because it the the least expensive in the line of similar capability aircraft and without any restrictions.
> 
> Many an F16---during the gulf wars had F15's as their escorts on special missions---. The JH7B can be armed with a growler type capability and missiles as well. If you put a new EW suite you can have the ability to launch all the weapons inyour arsenal.



I agree with your assessment, kind sir. The EW suit from J16 can easily be incorporated with JH. 

What is your view on local production? 

It will be pennies to dollar, really. Plus the benefit of local industry. Then PAC can build in numbers. Besides a future variant can have design improvements as well.


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## Woz Ahmed

Quwa said:


> What difference would cutting defence expenditure make when Pakistani political leaders will squander the re-allocated money in corruption and inefficient spending?


I am not sure this is a valid argument. Your suggesting we don't spend on education and health because most will leak away, so lets spend it on military equipment, because we believe it will be spent as per the allocation.

My point is our population according to the UN will hit 300 million in 2050 and 364 million in 2100. Already people are trying to emigrate to Europe and beyond at huge risk illegally. Our land quality is reducing, but we also have some of the lowest crop outputs for irrigated and non irrigated land. The future is more and more mechanised and needs educated people, it is truly a knowledge century and we cant be allowed to be left behind.

In response to another comment | am a Punjabi and I agree, lets cut the Orange line, but frankly Karachi is one of the major cities of the world, population wise and it desperately needs mass transport.

Hey I live in Eritrea, its a shithole, but I have employment and I feel safe, which I didnt at home, but I want to return home to a country that is developimng not one that that cant provide basic education and healthcare to half the nation, which will get worse as the population hits 300 million in 34 years time.

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## Mentee

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> When you bring out the SU34 or the J16---inadvertantly you are talking about the JH7B---. Because it the the least expensive in the line of similar capability aircraft and without any restrictions.
> 
> Many an F16---during the gulf wars had F15's as their escorts on special missions---. The JH7B can be armed with a growler type capability and missiles as well. If you put a new EW suite you can have the ability to launch all the weapons inyour arsenal.



sir can the jh7b be armed with 20 sd10-B's?-------- 3 on each 6 hard points under the wings, using triple ejector racks and 2 on wing tips? while the under belly hardpoint for feul tanks usage like in the case of grippen -------- i mean to say that it has a total payload capacity of 9000kg-----and 1 sd10-B weighs about 180 kg,so the grand total shall be 3600kg----for the racks i don't know how much kgs they are going to add------- is it feasible that jh7-b could be used as bvr truck without much headache-----------
edit: iam quoting wiki as a source----


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## Quwa

Woz Ahmed said:


> I am not sure this is a valid argument. Your suggesting we don't spend on education and health because most will leak away, so lets spend it on military equipment, because we believe it will be spent as per the allocation.
> 
> My point is our population according to the UN will hit 300 million in 2050 and 364 million in 2100. Already people are trying to emigrate to Europe and beyond at huge risk illegally. Our land quality is reducing, but we also have some of the lowest crop outputs for irrigated and non irrigated land. The future is more and more mechanised and needs educated people, it is truly a knowledge century and we cant be allowed to be left behind.
> 
> In response to another comment | am a Punjabi and I agree, lets cut the Orange line, but frankly Karachi is one of the major cities of the world, population wise and it desperately needs mass transport.
> 
> Hey I live in Eritrea, its a shithole, but I have employment and I feel safe, which I didnt at home, but I want to return home to a country that is developimng not one that that cant provide basic education and healthcare to half the nation, which will get worse as the population hits 300 million in 34 years time.


The question - 'what difference does it make if the money is in the hands of corrupt fools' - isn't so much as an argument as it is an observable fact. Thanks for raising all of the problems, I don't disagree with the prognosis, I just have a problem with the fact that your solution doesn't account for the root cause as to why prudent socio-economic policies aren't being introduced: corruption.

The fact of the issue (of defence spending) is that in Pakistan, it has always gone up and down - procurement has been variable.

Today it is on the climb, but in 2009-2013 it was slashed (in comparison to 2003-2008). The net effect of this was a collapse in the purchase of German submarines, Turkish corvettes, Chinese J-10 fighters, additional F-16s, additional Erieye, etc.

However, slashing the procurement budget evidently did not have an impact in terms of improving fundamental socio-economic problems. Why? Because the root socio-economic cause - i.e. corruption (and by virtue of it political ineptitude) had remained, and it still remains. Because of this corruption, Pakistani governments are unable (or unwilling) to properly resolve structural economic problems, such as debt, or a lack of export markets, or a lack of internal investment activity, etc. Why would they when their fates are tied to London and Dubai? 

By asking for a slash in procurement, you are not bringing anything new or worthwhile to the table. A real solution - however abstract at first - would be to demand a change in the political leadership of Pakistan. Not only that, but a change in the political system which continually enables the corrupt and incompetent to flow up to the surface, yet drown the competent and sincere to the bottom. Until then, there is no value in taking money from the armed forces and giving it to thieves, and then expecting thieves to heed to accountability and objective engagement.

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## Basel

@MastanKhan to much talk about JH-7B, now kindly post pics of that plane or link that it really exist or ready to be inducted in PLAAF/PLAN.


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## _NOBODY_

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> When you bring out the SU34 or the J16---inadvertantly you are talking about the JH7B---. Because it the the least expensive in the line of similar capability aircraft and without any restrictions.
> 
> Many an F16---during the gulf wars had F15's as their escorts on special missions---. The JH7B can be armed with a growler type capability and missiles as well. If you put a new EW suite you can have the ability to launch all the weapons inyour arsenal.


If one BVR missile is launched at JH-7 the hitting chances would be much much greater as compared to that of Flankers. That is why we would have to assign JF-17s for its protection but Flanker's case is different as Flankers like J-16 and Su-34 are strong enough take on enemy's fighter in both BVR and WVR combat. Assigning JF-17 for JH-7's protection would compromise our capability/capabilities for example we already posses few decent air superiority fighters as compared to India and by assigning JF-17 for another task like that would compromise our air superiority. As for an electronic warfare variant of JH-7 that sounds good but if we could somehow make a deal with Russia with China's influence that we would buy Su-35 from you if you let China sell us J-16 then JH-7 wouldn't be needed as J-16 already has an electronic warfare variant.

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## Woz Ahmed

Quwa said:


> The question - 'what difference does it make if the money is in the hands of corrupt fools' - isn't so much as an argument as it is an observable fact. Thanks for raising all of the problems, I don't disagree with the prognosis, I just have a problem with the fact that your solution doesn't account for the root cause as to why prudent socio-economic policies aren't being introduced: corruption.
> 
> The fact of the issue (of defence spending) is that in Pakistan, it has always gone up and down - procurement has been variable.
> 
> Today it is on the climb, but in 2009-2013 it was slashed (in comparison to 2003-2008). The net effect of this was a collapse in the purchase of German submarines, Turkish corvettes, Chinese J-10 fighters, additional F-16s, additional Erieye, etc.
> 
> However, slashing the procurement budget evidently did not have an impact in terms of improving fundamental socio-economic problems. Why? Because the root socio-economic cause - i.e. corruption (and by virtue of it political ineptitude) had remained, and it still remains. Because of this corruption, Pakistani governments are unable (or unwilling) to properly resolve structural economic problems, such as debt, or a lack of export markets, or a lack of internal investment activity, etc. Why would they when their fates are tied to London and Dubai?
> 
> By asking for a slash in procurement, you are not bringing anything new or worthwhile to the table. A real solution - however abstract at first - would be to demand a change in the political leadership of Pakistan. Not only that, but a change in the political system which continually enables the corrupt and incompetent to flow up to the surface, yet drown the competent and sincere to the bottom. Until then, there is no value in taking money from the armed forces and giving it to thieves, and then expecting thieves to heed to accountability and objective engagement.


Thanks for the reply, I enjoyed reading it, was very eloquently written.
You seem to suggest we are screwed regardless and the enemy is not our neighbours but ourselves. We have spent half our lives under military rule and corruption and incompetence has been consist.

You are correct I have bought nothing new to the table, but have simply highlighted we are , in my view going to hit a major issue/disaster when we hit 300 million people in 34 years time, so need to garner all our resources to soften this . investing in education alone reduces birth rates and may even bring the better governance you and I strongly believe In, but one thing is certain $4-6 billion of submarines will not change our internal dynamic or the outlook for ur nation


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## Quwa

Woz Ahmed said:


> Thanks for the reply, I enjoyed reading it, was very eloquently written.
> You seem to suggest we are screwed regardless and the enemy is not our neighbours but ourselves. We have spent half our lives under military rule and corruption and incompetence has been consist.
> 
> You are correct I have bought nothing new to the table, but have simply highlighted we are , in my view going to hit a major issue/disaster when we hit 300 million people in 34 years time, so need to garner all our resources to soften this . investing in education alone reduces birth rates and may even bring the better governance you and I strongly believe In, but one thing is certain $4-6 billion of submarines will not change our internal dynamic or the outlook for ur nation


The fundamental flaw in your argument is that you're assuming the ones who design and implement policy are capable or willing to implement what you are suggesting. I am simply pointing you to the reality as it is - i.e. the politicians will not do a thing for the country, even if you were to cut out the Chinese submarine deal.

Please do not forget the fact that a there was a German submarine deal before this, and it had to die in order to compensate for the root problem. You want to re-invest in education? I know for a fact that a relatively small proportion of the money will end up with teachers, a lot of it will instead find its way to prop some politician's overseas investments. 

No one here is oblivious to the value of good development, for if we had it, then we'd probably be in a much better position to afford big-ticket arms. We're not that ignorant.

However, please offer us a solution as to how you intend to ensure the money - just as the re-allocated funds from the Peace Drive F-16s in 2005, or Type 214 submarines in 2008, or J-10s in 2010 - will not go down the drain in the hands of corruption. I am merely asking you offer a substantive solution to the root problem. Thanks.

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## Blue Marlin

Quwa said:


> The fundamental flaw in your argument is that you're assuming the ones who design and implement policy are capable or willing to implement what you are suggesting. I am simply pointing you to the reality as it is - i.e. the politicians will not do a thing for the country, even if you were to cut out the Chinese submarine deal.
> 
> Please do not forget the fact that a there was a German submarine deal before this, and it had to die in order to compensate for the root problem. You want to re-invest in education? I know for a fact that a relatively small proportion of the money will end up with teachers, a lot of it will instead find its way to prop some politician's overseas investments.
> 
> No one here is oblivious to the value of good development, for if we had it, then we'd probably be in a much better position to afford big-ticket arms. We're not that ignorant.
> 
> However, please offer us a solution as to how you intend to ensure the money - just as the re-allocated funds from the Peace Drive F-16s in 2005, or Type 214 submarines in 2008, or J-10s in 2010 - will not go down the drain in the hands of corruption. I am merely asking you offer a substantive solution to the root problem. Thanks.


the type 214 deal was killed due to the germans refusing to allow intregation of an slcm and that was it. everything was arranged including financing.

as for pakistanis problem....... theres no current solution as the pml, ppp, pti are all messed up. personally i want mushy back in charge. zadari was a waste of time. the current guy is doing quiet well the economy is changing.
if i was to say somthing doable it would be to change the current guy instead of replacing him. mind you the chinese will make sure they are inline as they want a return on their $46 billion in investments and more. and cpec to pakistanis is a second chance and even the elites aren't dumb enough to ignore that.

oh and back to the subs....
i dont know why but i think there will two type of subs here as they all cant be a second strike vessel so i would imagine 4 being a type 39 variant (ssk) (could be the newer "C" variant 'below') and the other 4 being a streched variant or possibly a conventional type 93 which would make it very easy to install a nuclear propulsion modulein later hulls






oh and to add the j10 was due to the engine reliabillity. if they purchased the j10b then there would be no block 52


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## MastanKhan

TheGreatOne said:


> If one BVR missile is launched at JH-7 the hitting chances would be much much greater as compared to that of Flankers. That is why we would have to assign JF-17s for its protection but Flanker's case is different as Flankers like J-16 and Su-34 are strong enough take on enemy's fighter in both BVR and WVR combat. Assigning JF-17 for JH-7's protection would compromise our capability/capabilities for example we already posses few decent air superiority fighters as compared to India and by assigning JF-17 for another task like that would compromise our air superiority. As for an electronic warfare variant of JH-7 that sounds good but if we could somehow make a deal with Russia with China's influence that we would buy Su-35 from you if you let China sell us J-16 then JH-7 wouldn't be needed as J-16 already has an electronic warfare variant.



Hi,

I am at a loss to further explain the concept.



Sinopakfriend said:


> I agree with your assessment, kind sir. The EW suit from J16 can easily be incorporated with JH.
> 
> What is your view on local production?
> 
> It will be pennies to dollar, really. Plus the benefit of local industry. Then PAC can build in numbers. Besides a future variant can have design improvements as well.



Hi,

I personally would like to see at least 3--4 sqdrn's of this aircraft with the paf---. But them being ruled by F16 operators---it is just a wishful thinking--unsless a strong prime minister who knows his stuff can force the decision.

I do not think that paf kamra has the ability to absorb the production of another line at this time.

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## denel

Woz Ahmed said:


> I am not sure this is a valid argument. Your suggesting we don't spend on education and health because most will leak away, so lets spend it on military equipment, because we believe it will be spent as per the allocation.
> 
> My point is our population according to the UN will hit 300 million in 2050 and 364 million in 2100. Already people are trying to emigrate to Europe and beyond at huge risk illegally. Our land quality is reducing, but we also have some of the lowest crop outputs for irrigated and non irrigated land. The future is more and more mechanised and needs educated people, it is truly a knowledge century and we cant be allowed to be left behind.
> 
> In response to another comment | am a Punjabi and I agree, lets cut the Orange line, but frankly Karachi is one of the major cities of the world, population wise and it desperately needs mass transport.
> 
> Hey I live in Eritrea, its a shithole, but I have employment and I feel safe, which I didnt at home, but I want to return home to a country that is developimng not one that that cant provide basic education and healthcare to half the nation, which will get worse as the population hits 300 million in 34 years time.


Good point. Population control is a must- is there no concept of family planning? An odd question but a necessary one.

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## MastanKhan

Sinopakfriend said:


> Mr. MK, a sincere thank you is an honest expression here.
> 
> Your elaboration has provided a better understanding... of theatre of operations. Especially the sentimentality aspect and political pandering.
> 
> IF PNS can acquire Turkish U boats on a reasonable price, even without the AIP, this would have extreme long term benefits in positive sense.
> 
> Your repeated assertion for a long period for a heavy strike platform is logical, really.
> 
> PAC can make them in house...even assemblying them in house must be a top priority... Chinese JH is the best option not only from operational capability but something to be build upon later. Cheap as well.
> 
> Why? It creates jobs... people working at PAC get a better life. Their kids go to better schools and are exposed to aviation. Next generation nurtured from cradle. Hence my querry for ToT. But your elaboration is certainly valid and logical.
> 
> PAF must not waste resources on SU35... IMHO though.



Hi,

Just see the level of intellect on this link---. I used to wonder----how was it possible for Genghis Khan's armies to annihilate strong muslim and other empires one after the other---.

I never imagined that I would get an answer in my life time.

https://defence.pk/threads/the-us-c...ucture-without-dropping-a-single-bomb.438388/

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## salarsikander

Aali Shafi said:


> The Chinese submarines can take the marines deep inside the sea but there is no assurance of bringing them back on the surface.


based on your limited comprehension abilty or something else ?

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## MastanKhan

jamal18 said:


> Guys, I am a little confused. Submarines are less effective and more vulnerable in shallow water. This is why the Persian gulf is a bad place for them. Have I missed something?




Hi,

That is for the large subs---the diesel electric subs work very well in these conditions.

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## Malik Ashfaq Ahmed Saleem

Very good and have a nice time


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## Mangus Ortus Novem

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Just see the level of intellect on this link---. I used to wonder----how was it possible for Genghis Khan's armies to annihilate strong muslim and other empires one after the other---.
> 
> I never imagined that I would get an answer in my life time.
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/the-us-c...ucture-without-dropping-a-single-bomb.438388/



Mr. MK, many thanks for the link. 

Indeed, I fear you are terribly right. Just to underscore the obvious...the combined economy of Euro zone is largest in the world. Now add Japanese and Korean to this mix. You get the picture.

But not a single one of them, combined or alone, would dare to upset the US. One can wonder why.

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## T-Rex

Sinopakfriend said:


> Dear Q, your analysises and other rational balanced posts have been great source of education and insights along with some highly analytical and capable people here on PDF.
> 
> By the look of numbers Pak does wonders with its defensive capabilities with meager funds it has. IF one takes a step back and does the math... is it not simply astounding? Corruption is there- it really started in the 70s.
> 
> Corruption is the cancer of human society- globally.
> 
> If a rational matrix is applied then the ratio of Pak corruption in Asia migt not be that bad.
> One is no way rationalising this disease. Never. But putting things in perspective.
> 
> Young and bright people like yourself, will change your country.
> 
> Once again your country is on the launh pad of taking off.
> A sustained growth of even 5% over period of a decade... will do wonders.
> 
> An economy, a country and its resource pool i.e. your country- is bound to be top 15 economies in the world. This is no day dreaming or well wishing- cold fact. Even Wall Street knows it. Just control your population. It has exploded enough.
> 
> Now what can deliver this 'miracle'?
> 
> A hybrid solution.
> 
> Franco in Spain and strong man in S Korea laid the foundations for industrialisation.
> Both regimes were corrupt to the core and cronism.
> 
> In your country's case... current hybrid governance model is the key. It is in early stages, hence no visible results. Give it a five year run. Now your politicians have an almost 10 year run at governing... if nothing to show sustains..then expect a more robust hybrid model.
> 
> Why don't you use you powers of analysis and come up with a model that would be helpful to your country.
> 
> Since you have an immature political/feudal class and quite well developed éstablishment'... what would be the best form of governance (not the government) will be best for your country's needs?
> 
> Do forgive for such a long, boring post. No harm in requesting for such an analysis from talented people like yourself?
> 
> IMHO PNS must go for Turkish U-boats at bottom price and only upgrade them with Turkish BMS. As you are doing with A-90s. Do not waste money on German AIP-depsite them being the best.
> 
> Let your naval engineers open up the older A-70s and play around and come up with local design. Same for surface fleet. Build larger hulls... KSE has all the infrastructure eating rust... Just build your own. Desing and Build. Even when they are without powerplant or any systems.. Build your own. This the only way. Your friend China did it. You helped them in those early days. Do it for yourself.
> 
> You can do it!



*I agree with you 100%. This is how a true friend advises but the problem is there are too many friends of uncle sam in the Pakistani establishment. They try their best to hinder the actual development in the defence sector. You should not expect those people to whom their vested interest comes before the national interest to agree with you. They are always ready with their twisted logic. One of them is trying to portray Chinese subs as unsafe, I think you know who that is, you have addressed him as a fake Pakistani. I do not know if he's a fake Pakistani or not but definitely people like him can be purchased with dollar or indian rupees.*

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## mueeztheman

True, Pakistan is developing rapidly. Almost everywhere you can see construction, especially in Punjab and AK.


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## Bashido

Is there any rescue vassals in PN to response any disaster in submarines?? 
may be this topic discussed on forum but i am unable to find.


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## Mangus Ortus Novem

T-Rex said:


> *I agree with you 100%. This is how a true friend advises but the problem is there are too many friends of uncle sam in the Pakistani establishment. They try their best to hinder the actual development in the defence sector. You should not expect those people to whom their vested interest comes before the national interest to agree with you. They are always ready with their twisted logic. One of them is trying to portray Chinese subs as unsafe, I think you know who that is, you have addressed him as a fake Pakistani. I do not know if he's a fake Pakistani or not but definitely people like him can be purchased with dollar or indian rupees.*



Dear T-Rex, matters of states are deeper and complex. Please, take a distant and detached view. 
When do countries become independent or sovereign?
How many truly sovereign countries are there in the world? Three?Four?

What started 500 years ago can not be change in 7 decades. Young people are the hope of the world peace and development.

PNS has a larger role to play for not only PK but the peace in the region. In a complex environment things take longer time... not always a straight line to achieve goals.

PNS is getting more confident and getting slowly good equipment to do the job. PNS went to ECS to conduct excercises with PLAN. That was a brave act of a friend.

PLAN should return the favour and come train in PK waters. 

When the KEW/PNS infrastructure is build they must be able to produce subs and combact ships for their own needs. Their collaboration with China and Turkey will bear fruit sooner than later.

Turkey is going to need Pk more and more sooner than later. 

Most imprtant thing for a state is have clarity and long term game plan.

You have good heart. Wish BD all the best. Hopefully, PD & PK navies will be excercising in each others waters.

This is really needed now.

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## tarrar

What PN needs is a nuclear submarine. PN should work with China or Turkey to build as per PN's requirement.


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## Mangus Ortus Novem

First and far most is to start with the Chinese subs.

With actual Chinese ToT, not like the french kit assemply, PNS will have a trained engineers and technicians at its disposal.

Just like the JF17 this is also going to transform PNS infrastructure.

First need is master the tech of diesel electric subs..before even thinking about SSNs.

The Chinese will establish a broader infrastructure of sub and ship building.

From then on its upto KEW/PNS what they do with it.

Great opportunity of self reliance for PNS just like your airforce and your army.

All the best.

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## princefaisal

Four Chinese S-20 submarines, to be built at KSEW, must be fitted with HAVELSAN SEDA Submarine Command Control System & Torpedo FCS System, Aselsan radar & sonar, torpedos & other critical equipments to match it with the upgraded Agosta submarines.

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## eldamar

tarrar said:


> What PN needs is a nuclear submarine. PN should work with China or Turkey to build as per PN's requirement.



for what? just because India has 1? a nuclear attack sub cost AT LEAST $1 billion per unit- and this is an extremely conservative(bordering on unrealistic) price estimate. Does PK have the money?


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## tarrar

eldarlmari said:


> for what? just because India has 1? a nuclear attack sub cost AT LEAST $1 billion per unit- and this is an extremely conservative(bordering on unrealistic) price estimate. Does PK have the money?



Keep in mind, the Naval Chief had already shown interest.


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## eldamar

tarrar said:


> Keep in mind, the Naval Chief had already shown interest.



showing interest and being financially sound for it are 2 different matters. A nuclear sub's main purpose is long distance power projection. Aside from perishables like food, a sub on a mission can survive at sea without having the need to replenish resources. Such is the case then can a nuclear sub's capability justify for it's costs. producing JF-17s using its own industries are already a problem in terms of financial considerations- not to mention procuring nuclear subs, especially when the need for them are unnecessary- other than the 'prestige' of having 'nice-sounding' nuclear-associated weaponry(nuclear subs, nuclear ships, nuclear ICBMs, nuclear strategic bombers, etc)

Other than blockading ports and supporting covert commando missions in(hostile ports), any wars involving PK would have been settled *decisively* over land and it's airspace(its own and adjacent enemy ones).
*
Is PK's naval doctrine projecting power far away from its backyard at sea?
*
With the topic @hand in mind, the money that could have been raised(even if PK had to 'eat grass') would had been better spent at procuring a 3-4 destroyers, more frigates and some conventional subs instead. These would had made her a formidable navy to be of substantial threat to her enemies.

PK cant depend on China all the time. It doesnt mean she has to procure something, just because her enemy something. She needs only to procure and maintain something that she has the means for it.

*take note im a supporter of PK and what i've said are *unbiased evaluation of reality* on the finances part and not country-bashing.


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## Hassan Guy

The Submarine deal is terrible tbh, we should have developed our subs with chinese help not bought them directly


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