# Agartala Conspiracy confession, what does it mean for our history



## kalu_miah

First of all, some disclaimer. I am a loyal citizen of Bangladesh (as well as the US), but I believe we need to find facts about our own history. So these are part of my efforts to uncover some uncomfortable facts and ask some hard questions. Please do not take these efforts to mean that I am pro or anti independence of Bangladesh, I am neither and I accept it as a fait accompli, a done deal that cannot be reversed. Like the majority of Bangladeshi's living today, I had no role in that conflict in 1971. As far as I know my parents did not play any role either.

*Agartala Conspiracy confession, what does it mean for our history.*

Relevant PDF threads for reference:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/current-events-social-issues/156104-isi-nabbed-traitors.html
http://www.defence.pk/forums/curren...tala-memogate-another-conspiracy-reality.html
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-history-strategy/50095-truth-1971-sheikh-haseena-wajid.html
http://www.defence.pk/forums/bangladesh-defence/124950-raw-says-mujib-not-their-agent.html
http://www.defence.pk/forums/bangladesh-defence/19050-book-review-india-doctrine-1947-2007-a-14.html
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-history-strategy/1870-creation-bangladesh-14.html#post92614
http://www.defence.pk/forums/bangla...971-war-pakistan-vs-india-untold-story-2.html
http://www.defence.pk/forums/bangladesh-defence/31528-bangladesh-balochistan-3.html
http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...eague-not-allowed-form-government-1971-a.html

I have been looking at life history of both Suhrawardy and Mujib to see where the seed of rebellion came from. The idea of United Bengal came from Suhrawardy:
Huseyn Shaheed Suhrawardy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> *Bengali nationalists such as Sarat Chandra Bose, Huseyn Shaheed Suhrawardy, Kiran Shankar Roy, Abul Hashim, Satya Ranjan Bakshi and Mohammad Ali Chaudhury sought to counter partition proposals with the demand for a united and independent state of Bengal. Suhrawardy and Bose sought the formation of a coalition government between Bengali Congress and the Bengal Provincial Muslim League. Proponents of the plan urged the masses to reject communal divisions and uphold the vision of a united Bengal. In a press conference held in Delhi on April 27, 1947 Suhrawardy presented his plan for a united and independent Bengal and Abul Hashim issued a similar statement in Calcutta on April 29. Such a unifying movement was started by Rabindranath Tagore and others in 1905 during British Bengal administrative division(Bongovongo) or Division of United Bengal. But unfortunately Suhrawardy's plan gained no popularity, although among-st the people who wanted unity of east and west Bengal in 1905.*



After partition however Suhrawardy gave up on this idea since it was rejected by people. He had been a loyal son of the country and had great accomplishment as a leader:
- solidified Pak-China and Pak-US ties
- moved towards free-market capitalism away from communism although he had a soft corner for socialism
- initiated plan for nuclear power generation as well as weapons in the future

But he had another side:



> *Leonard Mosley, in his book 'The last days of the British Raj' writes [on page 26]: "Mr. Suhrawardy was a party 'boss' of the type who believes that no politician need ever be out of office once his strong-arm squads have gained control of the polling booths; that no minister should ever suffer financially by being in public life; that no relative or political cohort should ever go unrewarded. He loved money, champagne, Polish blondes and dancing the tango in nightclubs, and he was reputed to have made a fortune during the war. He loved Calcutta, including its fi-lthy, festering slums, and it was from the noisome alleyways of Howrah that he picked the goondas who accompanied him everywhere as bodyguards."*



The above shows Suhrawardy's human side, he was no saint. But what piqued my interest about the above is this question: * is it possible that Mujib was one of these goondas?*

What I can see is that Suhrawardy was a person of integrity and foresight, and he was from a distinguished family. He tried the idea of United Bengal, as it was worth a try, but after partition, he dropped that idea, as anyone with a minimum knowledge of geopolitics would know that East Pakistan by itself would be a much more vulnerable entity with India on 3 sides. But *if young Mujib was one of his goondas (I don't know for sure) then this could have given him the dream that one day he might be able to make East Pakistan secede from West Pakistan and rule over it as a benevolent king/dictator/dear-leader/bongo-bandhu?*

Because what I see from Mujib's life history is that this person is the root of the seed of rebellion. This rebellion was made without considering the long term future of his people, who had taken this obsolete idea (United Independent Bengal) from Suhrawardy and turned it into his modified dream of truncated independent kingdom of East Bengal and proceeded to ally with an enemy state and people (Hindu's) to engineer a secession to make his dream come true:
Sheikh Mujibur Rahman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Swadhin Bangal Biplobi Parishad - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


> *The Swadhin Bangal Biplobi Parishad was an underground student political group organized in 1961 by Mujibur Rahman, the founder of Bangladesh. The group worked to oppose the military rule of Ayub Khan, as well as for greater autonomy and the independence of East Pakistan as "Bangladesh."*



Again I see that demagogues and rabble rousers become leaders with little idea of geopolitics and lead nations and people to a direction with disastrous consequences for the people they lead, blind leading the blind. If Mujib was really knowledgeable about geopolitics, instead of working with Indian intelligence, he would work with ISI and Chinese intelligence to help Phizo and Laldenga to gain independence for North East states. Current Awami League rule is nothing but a continuation of this long tradition that started with Mujib:

- cooperation with India to control Bangladesh
- serve Indian national interest while ruling Bangladesh

Coming to the Agartala Conspiracy case:
Agartala Conspiracy Case - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Forum


People of then East Pakistan thought this was a case to frame popular leader Mujib to taint his reputation. But that impression was a lie, as we can see that Indian intelligence influenced media have established this myth, while in reality the opposite was true, as was admitted by Shawkat Ali:
Col. Shawkat Ali - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> *Although it was largely thought that the Case was only to frame Sheikh Mujib and others,[2] in 2010, and on the anniversary of the withdrawal of the Case on 22 February 2011, Shawkat Ali confessed to the Parliament at a point of order that the charges read out to them were accurate, stating that they formed a Shangram Parishad under Sheikh Mujib for the sedition and secession of East Pakistan.*[3][4]



Funny thing is these shameless idiots are now trying to establish a treason case as some kind of heroic act. My question is why admit it in 2010 (or is it 2011), why not in 1968, when it mattered? Or why not in 1972? Why the silence for 40 long years?

35 'accused' honoured


> *The 35 "accused" in 'Agartala Conspiracy Case' were honoured yesterday in recognition of their contribution to set the country free from the Pakistani occupational forces.*



Textbook%20'incorrectly'%20describes%20Agartala%20Case:%20Shawkat]Textbook 'incorrectly' describes Agartala Case: Shawkat


> *"Agartala case was not related to the six-point movement . .. had it been so the accused like ours -- the military and civil government officials -- would not have the scope to get involved, though we had wholehearted support for it," said Shawkat who was a captain of Pakistan army at that time and was arrested to face the trial.
> 
> Earlier, speaking at the discussion organised by Oitihashik Agartala Mamla Mulyayan Parishad, the deputy speaker urged the textbook board authorities to evaluate equally bullet-wounded flight sergeant Fazlul Haque along with martyred flight sergeant Zahirul Haque.*



Note the attempt to establish a treason case as a "patriotic" case and include it in textbooks for 9th and 10th grade to brainwash new generation of Bangladeshi's.

What the above does not tell you is that 6 point "autonomy" movement was the deceptive facade that RAW/IB has designed together with these traitors so they could proceed with their plan for secession. They got caught red-handed by ISI only after some of them raided some armory against advice given by Indian intelligence (IB/RAW):
RAW says Mujib was not their agent :: Weekly Blitz


> *K. Sankaran Nair in a tape recorded interview revealed and admitted to me that Sheikh Mujibur Rahman never worked for Intelligence Bureau of India and he was falsely implicated by the Pakistan military rulers. Sankaran Nair as Col. Menon met four East Pakistani citizens on the border of India and Pakistan near Agartala for operational planning in Eat Pakistan. He was assisted by Indian Naval officers and a Bihari IPS officer. He wanted to induce some new strategies for separatist activities. Prior to that he gave them financial aid and supplied arms to fight Pakistan army. Subsequently, these people wanted to raid the armoury in East Pakistan which was resisted by Sankaran Nair. He warned them not to raid the armoury and suggested that more arms would be floated to them through river on barges by the Indian intelligence which could be collected at suitable points for insurgency against the Pakistanis. These East Pakistani citizens ignored his suggestion and along with other colleagues raided the armoury which resulted in the arrest of 34 persons and the case as Agartala Conspiracy case was registered in a military court in Dhaka. An Indian diplomat P. N. Ojha, who was IB operative in Dhaka at that time, was declare Persona Non Grata [PNG] by the Pakistan Govt. and deported to India for his involvement in this case, which was a fact.*


Of course Mujib never "worked" and got paid from Indian intelligence. His vision was that he was king of East Bengal, who was getting India's help to liberate his land. *But note the lie in green by Sankaran Nair, as Shawkat Ali has already confessed about the truth of the Agartala case.*

Questions:

1. Sure there was economic deprivation, but were the West Pakistani's killing us since 1950's? 
2. Who gave the right to Mujib to make this decision on behalf of East Pakistan to secede?
2. Who started the killing, were it not the planned saboteurs of Indian trained Awami agents who started the killings of Biharis months before Operation Searchlight?
3. Who gave the right to Mujib to seek help and become the partner of our 800 year old enemy entity, Hindu's of South Asia?
4. Is it not possible that instead of seeking help from an enemy that hates us Muslims to the core, that we could confront and raise this issue with our "oppressor" the West Pakistani's who were fellow Muslims after all?
5. If some of our "leaders" did not conspire with our enemy and committed treason (partner with an enemy state to plan for secession) and if we tried to solve these issues honestly, frankly and in a straight forward way, do we think we would still be treated the way we were treated (operation searchlight)?

If we could peacefully resolve the differences between the two wings of Pakistan and achieve autonomy or amicable separation, then:

1. hundreds of thousands of people (Hindu's, Bengali Muslims, non-Bengali Muslims) would not be killed and become victims of rape and other atrocities
2. we could still have a better relationship between the 2nd and 3rd largest Muslim countries of the world
3. India would not gloat of their victory against West Pakistan and gifting us our "independence"
4. both parts would not become weaker, as both could share the nuclear power
5. India would not dare to proceed with its water terrorism, border violence and Shanti Bahini insurgency against Bangladesh
6. last but not least North East today may have become partly independent if not completely

Now can we say that India found a "useful idiot" who had a bunch of other idiot followers to achieve India's goal to break Pakistan, the largest Muslim country in the world, and thus reduce strategic threats for Indian nation? In the process, hundreds of thousands of people got killed in the civil war and a great rift was created among two of the largest Muslim communities of the world.

Now can we say that Awami League should never be trusted again by people of Bangladesh and it should be banned and abolished, so the joint team of Awami League and Indian intelligence cannot hurt the national interest of Bangladesh any further?

Reactions: Positive Rating Positive Rating:
1 | Like Like:
23


----------



## Xestan

This is how a sane Muslim, a human being will look at this unfortunate event of 1971. My heart cries when I hear about breaking into half of Pakistan, although I wasn't present back then, but like you I've concerns about my history.

Anyways, coming to the topic, I would say, the seeds of hatred were planted by the Indians, and tbh, we helped them grow, I'm talking about both the wings, not just West or East Pakistan, but both. The issues you raised are very valid. There was a psy war going on at time and it's still there, Millions killed by hands of Pakistan Army, millions raped, I mean, really? Have anyone really actually looked into what really happened?

Surely, there were crimes committed on Pakistan's side but what happened with Biharis is also a reality, Mukti Bahini, 250k+ terrorists invaded our country and then some traitors felt proud by getting help from India, I still don't believe how we actually came to that day, we ourselves invited Allah's wrath upon us.

I'm in no way defending Pakistan's actions, but Bangladesh was never the solutions, I respect my Bangladeshi brothers, their nationality, their patriotism but I don't support how they made their country.

We all lost something at the end, not because someone else jumped into our affairs and incited hatred, but because we ourselves brought it upon us.

I hope in future, we can be unified again, not just Bangladesh but every Muslim country in this world, because that's where lies our strength.

Reactions: Like Like:
22


----------



## jbond197

Razakars version of the events.. Ask any real Bangladeshi about what happened in 1971 rather than a Jamati/Razakar..

Reactions: Like Like:
15


----------



## Xestan

jbond197 said:


> Razakars version of the events.. Ask any real Bangladeshi about what happened in 1971 rather than a Jamati/Razakar..



It's early morning in Sub-Continent, you'll soon have a lot of company, enough to tell you their views on the subject, lets see if PDF is all filled with Razakars only. Till then have some coffee

Reactions: Like Like:
12


----------



## kalu_miah

jbond197 said:


> Razakars version of the events.. Ask any real Bangladeshi about what happened in 1971 rather than a Jamati/Razakar..



I would request all to ignore Indian trolls in this thread, unless some Indian makes any valid point that deserves a reply.

Reactions: Like Like:
13


----------



## Al-zakir

jbond197 said:


> Razakars version of the events.. Ask any real Bangladeshi about what happened in 1971 rather than a Jamati/Razakar..



Who are you to decide who is who in Bd-Pak affair? _Awara kuttay ki tarah q bak ta hai humara gali mey. _Mujib daughter la-Hasina already admit about traitor Mujib affiliation with agartala conspiracy. Mujib was traitor and it was Pakistan goverment failure for not hanging him on site.

Reactions: Like Like:
19


----------



## Icewolf

Can anyone tell me what happened on August 15, 1975??

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Al-zakir

Icewolf said:


> Can anyone tell me what happened on August 15, 1975??



Some Army officer storm in Mujib house and killed him along with his family members. It's unfortunate that they could not finish all otherwise Bd would have been a lot more peaceful and traitors free nation.

Reactions: Like Like:
10


----------



## mb444

Mujib was aware of the Arartola conspiracy. From the prism of Pakistan he was a traitor. From the prism of Bangladesh it was necessary to become a sovereign entity in our own rights. 

Mujib was one of sowrwarddis enforcer and his protege.

It really is not a big deal. Pakistan is no more and history need only be from the Bangladeshi perspective. I for one do not believe Pakistan would have survived, mujib was the right man at the right time and was able to exploit the situation. It is interesting to note that both mujib and Bhutto had Hindu mothers, both their loyalty to the Muslim cause can be called to question.


Anyway I would suggest forget the past. Move forward and develop our respective countries.

Reactions: Like Like:
9


----------



## rubyjackass

OMG!! Kalu miah's has his own world order. It is not a big deal to create his own history.



> I have been looking at life history of both Suhrawardy and Mujib to see where the seed of rebellion came from. The idea of United Bengal came from Suhrawardy:


And he quotes wikipedia which has no citations for the said quotes.
Anyway nobody wanted their provinces to divide in 1947. Suhrawady did not want Bengal partition just as the Punjab leaguers did not want their province to divide. And FYI in 1905 Suhrawady and all the young generation of independence movement like Subhash Chandra Bose were bachchas. 1905 Bengal movement was a completely different phenomenon.In 1947 it became clear to everyone that Bengal will have to divide and cannot be united. People like Suhrawady asked for united Bengal so that Pakistan can keep the whole of Bengal, not because they wanted united Bengal at the cost of Pakistan. 

And then Kalu miah quotes the wiki again saying Suhrawady had goons as bodyguards. Then takes a leap of faith and logic to believe that Mujib was one of the goons. You know what? I was one of the bodyguards too in my earlier life. And then he theorizes Mujib was dreaming about Bangladesh all along. So once again Kalu miah writes down history - a tale of how he wishes things to be. Let us offer him a carton of cleanex for personal use.

Reactions: Like Like:
11


----------



## LaBong

Daily dose of Bangladeshi repentance of existence of their country. 

Lament Bangladeshis, lament hard, for you have sinned.

Reactions: Like Like:
12


----------



## Pakistanisage

I think we need to to closer ties and cooperation between Pakistan and Bangladesh because we still have a behemoth enemy named India.

Reactions: Like Like:
11


----------



## Rhino

Reading bangladeshi threads and posts i can assume that they are very confused people...their threads and posts are full of confusions...

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## kumarkumar1867

Great Kalu-Miah,

How beautifully you avoided linguistic struggle between bengalis & west pakistanis.You also didnt mentioned anywhere how Mujib won elections with majority but was not allowed to take power by west pakistani lobby.
Not to forget great famine of 1970 when hundreds of families were dying & west pakistanis who took colonizing benefits let their bengali contrymen die without any helping hand.

RAW/IB/India/Hindu all you can see is this.You cant see the pain of bengalis dying in famines, nor can you see gross neglect of development in east pakistan for 2 decades after independence, you will never see how sindhis, balochis , muhajirs are treated by Punjabis.

And you should bow & thank to Mujib, founder of Bangladesh who may be a Goonda as per your definition for liberating you from experiences your ancestors went through.

There is definitely role of India in Bangladesh creation but its not what as large as you claim here. Creation of Bangladesh helped India's stability. Even if Pakistan or Bangladesh was at India's place I dont think they would have acted differently, especially Pakistan, which always try to destabilize India by hook or crook.

But be it any country or state, if educated people like you are sorry citizen for its existence, soverignity or freedom then my friend no wonder why puppets (as you call them) are ruling your country. 

PS : Please dont bring Islam to this 1971 case, neither Pakistan nor Bangladesh have any significant contribution to Islam/Muslims so stop whinning about it. Creation of Bangladesh or Division of Pakistan is a political case it has nothing to do with religion or anything. 1000s of Buhari muslims who were willing to leave Bangladesh were not accepted back by Pakistan also Bangladesh refused to shelter few hundred Rohignyas who were also muslim, so both Pakistanis & Bengalis must stop whinning about Muslims or Islam. *Religion is just a mask people use to make things look different.*


Pakistanisage said:


> I think we need to to closer ties and cooperation between Pakistan and Bangladesh because we still have a behemoth enemy named India.


 
India is Bangladesh's Enemy?? and who says this.... You, Kalu Miah & few PDF members??
We have no issues with Bangladesh except Illegal Immigration cases.

Welcome to Reality, here things are exactly opposite than you & few members dream about.

Reactions: Like Like:
18


----------



## GR!FF!N

Al-zakir said:


> Some Army officer storm in Mujib house and killed him along with his family members. It's unfortunate that they could not finish all otherwise Bd would have been a lot more peaceful and traitors free nation.



in any other defence forum,your Ip would be banned,just for supporting killing of your own Prime minister.but...its.. 

extremist views are good,but it should have a limit. 


@kalu Miah...

i'm respecting your hard work,but it didn't make sense.while you omitted a lot of important facts like the reason of 1971 war,genocides of innocent people,vasha andolon,you also twisted few words like Suhrawardy wanted an united bengal when everybody knows whats his plan was...India fought against british empire for an United India,not for Muslim Motherland.but when Musilm League saw an oppertunity,they jumped for it.read this,the day Kolkata bleed due to plan of Muslim League to divide India...

Direct Action Day - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Kolkata Riot is a major incident why Congress rejected United Bengal plan.because no way they wanted to loose a hindu dominated area when they couldn't keep muslim dominated portions of bengal or else another riot would be created.so you can easily guess what would be fate of an "United Bengal"..


You should join Politics......

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Icewolf

@xymt

Edit your post friend


----------



## kumarkumar1867

xyxmt said:


> how the F.U.C.K an ugly smelly hindu knows how punjabis treat others in Pakistan, same ***** you fed to Bangalis before.
> and now you mofo hindus are unpset that pakistan doesnt trust you and you want to be friends/aman ki asha, well listen you rats we have seen back stabbing mofo hindus and we dont intend to trust you for next 1000 years....dont ever think we will leave you alone, we will drag you where we go, lol you want friendship and better realtions now...my a s s
> 
> we will make you tell your generation the worst mistake you made was to help break Pakistan.


 
First, Dude, dont show your character & level of thoughts by such language here, stop pretending like you heard this for first time & its not me who says this, google about it on internet to know more. 
I can post links about sindhis or balochis here but I am not here to spoon-feed clowns like you who are good in verbal diarrhea instead to learning through available resources.

Second, about backstabbing, When Indian PM Vajpayee was roaming with indian legend squad on Lahore streets hoping for peace between India & Pakistan your army was preparing for Kargil, also Sheltering Dawood Ibrahim, demanding 26/11's culprit Abu Jundal's custody from Saudi authorities are still a bench mark examples of Backstabbing which Indians will never achieve.

Your nation initiated four wars in history so stop talking BS about trust & friendship.Also after 26/11, I personally give a fck to Aman ki Asha thing now you will get what you ask for. If you trust us we will think of it but if you dont who cares.

Third, dont forget about the fact that same ugly smelly hindus who fought for creation of bangladesh also fought for independence of United India when your muslim think tanks were happy serving Goras. You got freedom almost for no cost & your leaders except Mohd. Ali Jinnah incompetent of running country demanded a nation called Pakistan based on religion seizing a oppurtunity just like Mujib did.

Reactions: Like Like:
9


----------



## Cherokee

xyxmt said:


> At least Pakistan Army/ISI learned that our politicians support corrupt and disloyal politicians and let traiter free, so now ISI takes care of people like Mujeeb (as in Akbar Bugti)
> 
> 
> 
> how the F.U.C.K an* ugly smelly hindu* knows how punjabis treat others in Pakistan, same ***** you fed to Bangalis before.
> and now you *mofo hindus* are unpset that pakistan doesnt trust you and you want to be friends/aman ki asha, well listen you rats we have seen back* stabbing mofo hindus* and we dont intend to trust you for next 1000 years....dont ever think we will leave you alone, we will drag you where we go, *lol you want friendship and better realtions now...my a s s*
> 
> *we will make you tell your generation the worst mistake you made was to help break Pakistan.
> *



It was in 1971 now its 2012 . Its been more than 41 years and the only thing we say that we smashed Pakistan in two and broke more than 60 % of Pakistan in terms of population . Moreover you Lost Siachen too Later on . And we have done it Maintaining our Sovereignty and Integrity . "Amreeka" is not dropping "Bumbs" on our head against our wishes . We are not rated amongst countries like Somalia in "failed Nation Index" . Shia Hazaras are not being Massacred in our country . Hot Chicks from Pakistan are jumping the pond from Karachi to Mumbai to work in Bollywood . I can go on and on and on but right now i think this is enough to wake you and make you change your sheets . 


Regarding Religious Slur It's your proprietary . I would not say anything about Muslims because it will upset my Country's Muslim who are my brothers .

Reactions: Like Like:
10


----------



## Icewolf

Trolla-Lala said:


> It was in 1971 now its 2012 . Its been more than 41 years and the only thing we say that we smashed Pakistan in two and broke more than 60 % of Pakistan in terms of population . Moreover you Lost Siachen too Later on . And we have done it Maintaining our Sovereignty and Integrity . "Amreeka" is not dropping "Bumbs" on our head against our wishes . We are not rated amongst countries like Somalia in "failed Nation Index" . Shia Hazaras are not being Massacred in our country . Hot Chicks from Pakistan are jumping the pond from Karachi to Mumbai to work in Bollywood . I can go on and on and on but right now i think this is enough to wake you and make you change your sheets .
> 
> 
> Regarding Religious Slur It's your proprietary . I would not say anything about Muslims because it will upset my Country's Muslim who are my brothers .


 
1.2 billion population can only brng out 4 forbes companies, 2 gold medals, 600 million poor, a simple UAV engine, rape capital of the world, backward nations etc...

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## Cherokee

Icewolf said:


> 1.2 billion population can only brng out 4 forbes companies, 2 gold medals, 600 million poor, a simple UAV engine, rape capital of the world, backward nations etc...



Still Its 1.2 billion ppl living together , not like pakistan which lost more than 60 % of its Country in terms of Population just within 25 years of creation .

*600 million is also above poverty line . Its like Alleviating Entire population of Pakistan above poverty 3 times over . * For you the glass is half empty . For us its Half full . Maybe this pessimistic nature of pakistanis might be one of the reason why country is in its present shape .

Reactions: Like Like:
9


----------



## Srinivas

*Indians Plz don't answer this troll thread this thread is nothing but Kalu_miah's Stockholm syndrome. Time and again he will bash India with twisted facts and when some mean poster from indian answers to it he will start another version of his hatred.*

Seems there are some BD's(Not all people but a handful) who are supported by pakistan are trying to gain some territory of india from north east(lol for their dreams). This is nothing but spreading the hatred with twisted facts.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## M_Saint

kalu_miah said:


> First of all, some disclaimer. I am a loyal citizen of Bangladesh (as well as the US), but I believe we need to find facts about our own history. So these are part of my efforts to uncover some uncomfortable facts and ask some hard questions. Please do not take these efforts to mean that I am pro or anti independence of Bangladesh, I am neither and I accept it as a fait accompli, a done deal that cannot be reversed. Like the majority of Bangladeshi's living today, I had no role in that conflict in 1971. As far as I know my parents did not play any role either.
> 
> *Agartala Conspiracy confession, what does it mean for our history.*
> 
> Relevant PDF threads for reference:
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/current-events-social-issues/156104-isi-nabbed-traitors.html
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/curren...tala-memogate-another-conspiracy-reality.html
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-history-strategy/50095-truth-1971-sheikh-haseena-wajid.html
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/bangladesh-defence/124950-raw-says-mujib-not-their-agent.html
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/bangladesh-defence/19050-book-review-india-doctrine-1947-2007-a-14.html
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-history-strategy/1870-creation-bangladesh-14.html#post92614
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/bangla...971-war-pakistan-vs-india-untold-story-2.html
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/bangladesh-defence/31528-bangladesh-balochistan-3.html
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...eague-not-allowed-form-government-1971-a.html
> 
> I have been looking at life history of both Suhrawardy and Mujib to see where the seed of rebellion came from. The idea of United Bengal came from Suhrawardy:
> Huseyn Shaheed Suhrawardy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> After partition however Suhrawardy gave up on this idea since it was rejected by people. He had been a loyal son of the country and had great accomplishment as a leader:
> - solidified Pak-China and Pak-US ties
> - moved towards free-market capitalism away from communism although he had a soft corner for socialism
> - initiated plan for nuclear power generation as well as weapons in the future
> 
> But he had another side:
> 
> 
> 
> The above shows Suhrawardy's human side, he was no saint. But what piqued my interest about the above is this question: * is it possible that Mujib was one of these goondas?*
> 
> What I can see is that Suhrawardy was a person of integrity and foresight, and he was from a distinguished family. He tried the idea of United Bengal, as it was worth a try, but after partition, he dropped that idea, as anyone with a minimum knowledge of geopolitics would know that East Pakistan by itself would be a much more vulnerable entity with India on 3 sides. But *if young Mujib was one of his goondas (I don't know for sure) then this could have given him the dream that one day he might be able to make East Pakistan secede from West Pakistan and rule over it as a benevolent king/dictator/dear-leader/bongo-bandhu?*
> 
> Because what I see from Mujib's life history is that this person is the root of the seed of rebellion. This rebellion was made without considering the long term future of his people, who had taken this obsolete idea (United Independent Bengal) from Suhrawardy and turned it into his modified dream of truncated independent kingdom of East Bengal and proceeded to ally with an enemy state and people (Hindu's) to engineer a secession to make his dream come true:
> Sheikh Mujibur Rahman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Swadhin Bangal Biplobi Parishad - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> Again I see that demagogues and rabble rousers become leaders with little idea of geopolitics and lead nations and people to a direction with disastrous consequences for the people they lead, blind leading the blind. If Mujib was really knowledgeable about geopolitics, instead of working with Indian intelligence, he would work with ISI and Chinese intelligence to help Phizo and Laldenga to gain independence for North East states. Current Awami League rule is nothing but a continuation of this long tradition that started with Mujib:
> 
> - cooperation with India to control Bangladesh
> - serve Indian national interest while ruling Bangladesh
> 
> Coming to the Agartala Conspiracy case:
> Agartala Conspiracy Case - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Forum
> 
> 
> People of then East Pakistan thought this was a case to frame popular leader Mujib to taint his reputation. But that impression was a lie, as we can see that Indian intelligence influenced media have established this myth, while in reality the opposite was true, as was admitted by Shawkat Ali:
> Col. Shawkat Ali - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> Funny thing is these shameless idiots are now trying to establish a treason case as some kind of heroic act. My question is why admit it in 2010 (or is it 2011), why not in 1968, when it mattered? Or why not in 1972? Why the silence for 40 long years?
> 
> 35 'accused' honoured
> 
> 
> Textbook%20'incorrectly'%20describes%20Agartala%20Case:%20Shawkat]Textbook 'incorrectly' describes Agartala Case: Shawkat
> 
> 
> Note the attempt to establish a treason case as a "patriotic" case and include it in textbooks for 9th and 10th grade to brainwash new generation of Bangladeshi's.
> 
> What the above does not tell you is that 6 point "autonomy" movement was the deceptive facade that RAW/IB has designed together with these traitors so they could proceed with their plan for secession. They got caught red-handed by ISI only after some of them raided some armory against advice given by Indian intelligence (IB/RAW):
> RAW says Mujib was not their agent :: Weekly Blitz
> 
> Of course Mujib never "worked" and got paid from Indian intelligence. His vision was that he was king of East Bengal, who was getting India's help to liberate his land. *But note the lie in green by Shankaran Nair, as Shawkat Ali has already confessed about the truth of the Agartala case.*
> 
> Questions:
> 
> 1. Sure there was economic deprivation, but were the West Pakistani's killing us since 1950's?
> 2. Who gave the right to Mujib to make this decision on behalf of East Pakistan to secede?
> 2. Who started the killing, were it not the planned saboteurs of Indian trained Awami agents who started the killings of Biharis months before Operation Searchlight?
> 3. Who gave the right to Mujib to seek help and become the partner of our 800 year old enemy entity, Hindu's of South Asia?
> 4. Is it not possible that instead of seeking help from an enemy that hates us Muslims to the core, that we could confront and raise this issue with our "oppressor" the West Pakistani's who were fellow Muslims after all?
> 5. If some of our "leaders" did not conspire with our enemy and committed treason (partner with an enemy state to plan for secession) and if we tried to solve these issues honestly, frankly and in a straight forward way, do we think we would still be treated the way we were treated (operation searchlight)?
> 
> If we could peacefully resolve the differences between the two wings of Pakistan and achieve autonomy or amicable separation, then:
> 
> 1. hundreds of thousands of people (Hindu's, Bengali Muslims, non-Bengali Muslims) would not be killed and become victims of rape and other atrocities
> 2. we could still have a better relationship between the 2nd and 3rd largest Muslim countries of the world
> 3. India would not gloat of their victory against West Pakistan and gifting us our "independence"
> 4. both parts would not become weaker, as both could share the nuclear power
> 5. India would not dare to proceed with its water terrorism, border violence and Shanti Bahini insurgency against Bangladesh
> 6. last but not least North East today may have become partly independent if not completely
> 
> Now can we say that India found a "useful idiot" who had a bunch of other idiot followers to achieve India's goal to break Pakistan, the largest Muslim country in the world, and thus reduce strategic threats for Indian nation? In the process, hundreds of thousands of people got killed in the civil war and a great rift was created among two of the largest Muslim communities of the world.
> 
> Now can we say that Awami League should never be trusted again by people of Bangladesh and it should be banned and abolished, so they cannot use India to hurt the national interest of Bangladesh any further?


Friends/Compatriots, 

I propose Kalu Bhai for President, Idune Bhai for prime/foreign Minister, Luffy500 Bhai for General/Strategist against Malaunic war, Al-Zakir Bhai for spiritual leader and myself as a foot soldier for BD and the humanity. I guess that we could run BD better than RAWamy dalals, what do you think?

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## kalu_miah

Al-zakir said:


> Who are you to decide who is who in Bd-Pak affair? _Awara kuttay ki tarah q bak ta hai humara gali mey. _Mujib daughter la-Hasina already admit about traitor Mujib affiliation with agartala conspiracy. Mujib was traitor and it was Pakistan goverment failure for not hanging him on site.



Al-zakir Bhai, ISI (Pakistan govt.) did catch him and all others after some Agartala conspirators tried to raid an armory, as explained in OP, but Indian intelligence and Awami League cleverly used the deception of 6 point movement as a front to say that Sheikh Mujib was framed and our stupid emotional public believed the demagogue Sheikh Mujib rather than Pakistan govt. account of a "planned secession with help from Indian intelligence", which was the real truth.

This was mainly because, Mujib led Awami League together with Indian intelligence has carefully fed the public since 1950's with the idea that we were being ruled by new colonial ruler West Pakistan, exaggerating the unfair treatment that East Pakistan did receive in many sectors of economy and govt. So when ISI caught Agartala conspirators and the Indian RAW infiltrated media portrayed it as innocent Mujib being framed by ISI, then public became even more sympathetic to "innocent victim of framing" Mujib and Awami League.

In fact, this bungling (armory raid and getting caught) by Agartala conspirators was skillfully used by Indian intelligence to increase public sympathy for Mujib and Awami League and make Mujib into the highest profile national leader by 1969. In the meantime, Sergeant Jahurul Haque, an accused, was killed in a jail cell, by a West Pakistani guard. So this further inflamed public passion. Eventually Mujib was released under public pressure and he and Awami League went on to win election in 1970, mainly based on their popularity created by Agartala case. Taking advantage of the public agitation created by this case in 1969 in East Pakistan, West Pakistan politicians also agitated and all these events contributed to the fall of Ayub Khan govt.

Now it should be clear to all, why there is a saying called:
Popular opinion is the greatest lie.

And of course it is always good to remember the Big Lie theory:
Big Lie - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

With lie (that Mujib did not plan to secede with India's help), deception (6 point "autonomy" movement) and media propaganda, Awami League and Indian intelligence were able to hide their joint project of breaking Pakistan and instead made "innocent victim" Mujib the most popular leader and made possible for Awami league to win almost all seats in 1970 election. So, as much as it pains me to see the gullible stupidity of my people, I have to admire Indian intelligence how skillfully they navigated these difficult waters and shaped our public opinion to serve Indian interest. Unfortunately West Pakistan leadership was no match for them. I am sad to say that the leadership of Pakistan and Bangladesh since 1971 are still no match for Indian intelligence.

So Pakistan govt. in 1968 was already facing this tremendous hostile public. Awami League had considerable support and Hindu's were still close to at least 15% of the population, so street agitation with Indian funding was not difficult to achieve.

I think India was also using Gandhian non-violent street agitation as people power, as it was successful in ending British rule and it was a well understood method by politicians of that age already including young Mujib, which Arab spring people are just learning to use. Those who rule the street, also rule the state. So Pakistan govt. was in no position to hang Mujib, also they lacked evidence as most state witnesses under behind the scene pressure from Awami League goons buckled and did not provide evidence I think. So the case dragged on and eventually Mujib was released.

Agartala Conspiracy Case - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Supply&Demand

i am proud to be a bengali but thank god i was not born in Bangladesh!!!

Man !! i have never seen such a pathetic group of people as some Bangladeshis are...

Reactions: Like Like:
9


----------



## Zabaniyah

Well, the Agartala Conspiracy indeed really did happen. There is no question about that. 

The question is, why was Mujib along with his compatriots set free? Strange as it may seem. 

I guess Hasina has now shut her big mouth regarding the issue. Honestly, I respect Mujib for speaking out for the rights of Bengalis. But the man really went overkill. And a delusional one at that. We still see that today. 

Some powerful folks simply refuse to take responsibility for history.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## kalu_miah

Icewolf said:


> Can anyone tell me what happened on August 15, 1975??



Please look at details here and the listed sources:

Assassination of Sheikh Mujibur Rahman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## TopCat

Why are you beating the bush every freaking day and don't let us discuss any Economic or Defense related news in Bangladesh. This is not a political platform to run your campaign for the next election.

AL is the biggest political party in this country. Mujib have zillions of followers. You can call them Dalal, RAW agent etc but at the end of the day you got to live with it and they will certainly rule the majority of the future of Bangladesh. Better discuss what is good or bad going on in country regardless of political party in the power. I don't know whether it helps or not but one of my comment in a newspaper actually included in our constitution even though I don't get the credit for it. I suggested that the Bismillah should be translated to Bengali so that all religion can read it as their own and surprise they actually did it.

Reactions: Like Like:
9


----------



## kalu_miah

mb444 said:


> Mujib was aware of the Arartola conspiracy. From the prism of Pakistan he was a traitor. From the prism of Bangladesh it was necessary to become a sovereign entity in our own rights.
> 
> Mujib was one of sowrwarddis enforcer and his protege.
> 
> It really is not a big deal. Pakistan is no more and history need only be from the Bangladeshi perspective. I for one do not believe Pakistan would have survived, mujib was the right man at the right time and was able to exploit the situation. It is interesting to note that both mujib and Bhutto had Hindu mothers, both their loyalty to the Muslim cause can be called to question.
> 
> Anyway I would suggest forget the past. Move forward and develop our respective countries.



Mujib was one of the architect of Agartala conspiracy, not just aware of it. Prior to 1971 March 27, there was no Bangladesh, and we are talking about 1967 and 1961 where we find info that Mujib was active in sedition and treason. Since there was only Pakistan at that time, based on his recorded actions, he could be called nothing but a traitor in my opinion.

What prism of Bangladesh did we have in 1960's other than a plan hatched by Mujib and Indian intelligence?

So you are agreeing that Mujib was in fact a sidekick and "goon" of Suhrawardy?

With due respect, sir, I disagree with the view that this is no big deal. For history there is no Bangladesh or Pakistan perspective, there is only one version of history, its called the best estimation of the truth from first hand account of witnesses and best available written sources:

History - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


> *History (from Greek &#7985;&#963;&#964;&#959;&#961;&#943;&#945; - historia, meaning "inquiry, knowledge acquired by investigation"[2]) is the discovery, collection, organization, and presentation of information about past events. History can also mean the period of time after writing was invented. Scholars who write about history are called historians. It is a field of research which uses a narrative to examine and analyse the sequence of events, and it sometimes attempts to investigate objectively the patterns of cause and effect that determine events.[3][4] Historians debate the nature of history and its usefulness. This includes discussing the study of the discipline as an end in itself and as a way of providing "perspective" on the problems of the present.[3][5][6][7]*



Whether Pakistan would have survived or not is immaterial, we are only trying to uncover what really happened behind the scenes, who did what at which point in time. I did however mention that without Indian interference, we could always get an amicable divorce or become fully autonomous and avoid the death and misery of 1971, but these are all hypothetical pointless speculations of no value.

Again, with due respect Sir, we should never forget the past, we need to learn from the past. We need to learn how we got where we are now, in order for us to find a way out of our current situation. Uncovering this history helps us understand the true nature of Awami League, Mujib and Indian intelligence involvement in creation of Bangladesh. That is why I mentioned, if this is true, should we not consider Awami League as enemy no. 1 of Bangladeshi people and its interest, as well as the enemy of world Muslim community and their future interest? If the answer to these questions are yes, then as a country and people we should ponder what to do with Awami League in the future and if it should be banned as an anti-national party and dissolved in perpetuity.

The last sentence you said, I agree with, we need to move towards the future, but the first step towards our future has to do with dealing with the existence of this party called Awami League. Without this first step, in my opinion, we will not be able to take any second step.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Jackdaws

Kalu Miah, 

I love this line
"Who gave the right to Mujib to seek help and become the partner of our 800 year old enemy entity, Hindu's of South Asia?" 

Err - I would assume the fact that he was the truly elected leader of all of Pakistan gave him that right. 

800 year old enemy entity? You do realize if that were true - India would be in a constant state of civil war.

And this is what was done to your countrymen because they voted Mujib in. They exercised their right to universal adult franchise and this is what happened to them - I am posting this because it is a British fact finding mission - not Indian propaganda - 

Bangladeshi Refugee camp in India - YouTube

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## kalu_miah

M_Saint said:


> Friends/Compatriots,
> 
> I propose Kalu Bhai for President, Idune Bhai for prime/foreign Minister, Luffy500 Bhai for General/Strategist against Malaunic war, Al-Zakir Bhai for spiritual leader and myself as a foot soldier for BD and the humanity. I guess that we could run BD better than RAWamy dalals, what do you think?



M_Saint Bhai, thanks for your kind words, but you know well, I am only searching for the truth. I have no interest in power. But I would like to see Bangladesh civil society get more organized and united and bring positive changes for the country.



iajdani said:


> Why are you beating the bush every freaking day and don't let us discuss any Economic or Defense related news in Bangladesh. This is not a political platform to run your campaign for the next election.
> 
> AL is the biggest political party in this country. Mujib have zillions of followers. You can call them Dalal, RAW agent etc but at the end of the day you got to live with it and they will certainly rule the majority of the future of Bangladesh. Better discuss what is good or bad going on in country regardless of political party in the power. I don't know whether it helps or not but one of my comment in a newspaper actually included in our constitution even though I don't get the credit for it. I suggested that the Bismillah should be translated to Bengali so that all religion can read it as their own and surprise they actually did it.



I am glad to hear of your achievement about the change in constitution.

About beating about the bush and telling me what to do and showing your irritation about creating this thread, I think you are no mod and in no position to use such words. If you do not like my threads, complain to the mods or report it.

About telling me how big and powerful Awami League is and how they will rule the country in the future - sorry, I could care less. I deal with the truth and nothing but the truth. Who it affects and how it affects them, is not my problem.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Zabaniyah

kalu_miah said:


> I am glad to hear of your achievement about the change in constitution.
> 
> About beating about the bush and telling me what to do and showing your irritation about creating this thread, I think you are no mod and in no position to use such words. If you do not like my threads, complain to the mods or report it.
> 
> About telling me how big and powerful Awami League is and how they will rule the country in the future - sorry, I could care less. I deal with the truth and nothing but the truth. Who it affects and how it affects them, is not my problem.



Why do you keep posting all these threads? Some kind of weird obsession?  

Anyhow, the AL has a big image problem now. Both at home and abroad. And that is the reality now. As I said, some people simply refuse to take responsibility for history.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## kalu_miah

Zabaniya said:


> Why do you keep posting all these threads? Some kind of weird obsession?
> 
> Anyhow, the AL has a big image problem now. Both at home and abroad. And that is the reality now. As I said, some people simply refuse to take responsibility for history.



Because I am interested to get more information on this subject. I am a history buff and I like to know what actually happened behind the scenes.

I am not a political person, although some mistake me as one. As a person of Bangladeshi origin, I am a well wisher of Bangladesh and its people. After I find information about history, I can then recommend future courses of action.

Based on what I have uncovered so far, I recommend banning Awami League and dissolution of this party, as it has a track record since 1950's of working with India to undermine the national interest of our landmass and its people (East Pakistan, Bangladesh). This is essentially a track record of serial acts of treason, one after another.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## TopCat

kalu_miah said:


> Because I am interested to get more information on this subject. I am a history buff and I like to know what actually happened behind the scenes.
> 
> I am not a political person, although some mistake me as one. As a person of Bangladeshi origin, I am a well wisher of Bangladesh and its people. After I find information about history, I can then recommend future courses of action.
> *
> Based on what I have uncovered so far, I recommend banning Awami League and dissolution of this party,* as it has a track record since 1950's of working with India to undermine the national interest of our landmass and its people (East Pakistan, Bangladesh). This is essentially a track record of serial acts of treason, one after another.



BNP wala wants to dissolution of AL, AL wala wants to dissolution of BNP. Where do we go? Should we propose to dissolution of both the parties and make you the Administrator of this country as you are not a political person with weird ideas? LOL

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## kalu_miah

iajdani said:


> BNP wala wants to dissolution of AL, AL wala wants to dissolution of BNP. Where do we go? Should we propose to dissolution of both the parties and make you the Administrator of this country as *you are not a political person with weird ideas*? LOL



Yes, I am not a political person with any kind of weird ideas, that is indeed a correct statement, but I am not interested in Bangladesh politics. I do what I do for the interest of the country, at this moment I see BNP as the lesser evil that should prevail and Awami League should be marginalized as much as possible and banned if possible, based on its proven track records of treason and foreign influence. In the future I support a united civil society that can field independent candidates so they can remove all political parties from the scene, but that will take many decades, as even the US does not have that kind of party-free system yet.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Zabaniyah

kalu_miah said:


> Because I am interested to get more information on this subject. I am a history buff and I like to know what actually happened behind the scenes.
> 
> I am not a political person, although some mistake me as one. As a person of Bangladeshi origin, I am a well wisher of Bangladesh and its people. After I find information about history, I can then recommend future courses of action.
> 
> Based on what I have uncovered so far, I recommend banning Awami League and dissolution of this party, as it has a track record since 1950's of working with India to undermine the national interest of our landmass and its people (East Pakistan, Bangladesh). This is essentially a track record of serial acts of treason, one after another.



There were actually quite a few threads on the Agartala subject. 

As far as 'banning' the AL is concerned, it is not that easy I'm afraid. They have at least some local blinded die hard supporters and Indian backing. 

But based on their habits today, their days are pretty much numbered. The fate of the AL is more of a wait and see game. So let's wait and see. 

I mean, if they can't secure funds for a freaking bridge properly, then what else can they do? They are nothing more than a grain of salt on this world. No one other than spineless fanboys give a $hit about them. 

Here are some hints: 

The economy now is not that great. There is a liquidity crisis. 

Mergers, acquisitions and even takeovers are going to happen a lot in 3-5 years time. Particularly in the banking sector. If Bangladeshi banks don't do so, then the global banking titans like Standard Chartered, HSBC, Citibank, etc. are going to simply take them over. They are panting like hungry dogs already. 

Biman may get taken over by something. Likely either Singapore Airlines or Thai Airways. 

Much of the RMG sector are likely to get owned by India and China at some point in the future if things go on like they are now. 

As for the jute industry, India is already buying into it. 

Did you know that Grameen Phone recently laid off around 3000 employees? The Bangladeshi government are suing Telenor, and trust me, they can't even do $hit. As I said, no one gives a damn about the AL now. 

Bangladesh have good numbers in its talent pool, and will continue to grow in the future. 

The economy still has the potential to be truly 'global' in the sense. But reliant. 

Neither the AL or BNP are sustainable. I guess they can just take all their money, settle down in some Western country and live comfortably. Cause that's all they can do.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Luffy 500

GR!FF!N said:


> in any other defence forum,your Ip would be banned,just for supporting killing of your own Prime minister.but...its..
> 
> extremist views are good,but it should have a limit.



Why are you burning. He was telling the general perception of bangladeshis on the issue idiot. Its 
annoying ignorant trolls like you , who are extremist ones.



iajdani said:


> BNP wala wants to dissolution of AL, AL wala wants to dissolution of BNP. Where do we go? Should we propose to dissolution of both the parties and make you the Administrator of this country as you are not a political person with weird ideas? LOL


 
Ok iajdani why is your a$$ on fire.






Why can't you awamiligers accept the truth? Truth always prevails, just remember that if you 
are a muslim i.e.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Srinivas

Icewolf said:


> 1.2 billion population can only brng out 4 forbes companies, 2 gold medals, 600 million poor, a simple UAV engine, rape capital of the world, backward nations etc...



 This is just the begining of glorious India.


----------



## azmax007

jbond197 said:


> Razakars version of the events.. Ask any real Bangladeshi about what happened in 1971 rather than a Jamati/Razakar..


 I'm a real Bangladeshi..the truth is Pakistanis killed Bengalis, Indians killed Bengalis, and Bengalis killed Bengalis...no India didn't help Bengalis out of love they did cz of "Divide and conquer" and India succeeded so what's there to argue about



kalu_miah said:


> Yes, I am not a political person with any kind of weird ideas, that is indeed a correct statement, but I am not interested in Bangladesh politics. I do what I do for the interest of the country, at this moment I see BNP as the lesser evil that should prevail and Awami League should be marginalized as much as possible and banned if possible, based on its proven track records of treason and foreign influence. In the future I support a united civil society that can field independent candidates so they can remove all political parties from the scene, but that will take many decades, as even the US does not have that kind of party-free system yet.



I agree BNp is of the lesser evils as long as Tareq Rahman doesn't come back from his pathetic 'treatment' in the UK



Zabaniya said:


> There were actually quite a few threads on the Agartala subject.
> 
> As far as 'banning' the AL is concerned, it is not that easy I'm afraid. They have at least some local blinded die hard supporters and Indian backing.
> 
> But based on their habits today, their days are pretty much numbered. The fate of the AL is more of a wait and see game. So let's wait and see.
> 
> I mean, if they can't secure funds for a freaking bridge properly, then what else can they do? They are nothing more than a grain of salt on this world. No one other than spineless fanboys give a $hit about them.
> 
> Here are some hints:
> 
> The economy now is not that great. There is a liquidity crisis.
> 
> Mergers, acquisitions and even takeovers are going to happen a lot in 3-5 years time. Particularly in the banking sector. If Bangladeshi banks don't do so, then the global banking titans like Standard Chartered, HSBC, Citibank, etc. are going to simply take them over. They are panting like hungry dogs already.
> 
> Biman may get taken over by something. Likely either Singapore Airlines or Thai Airways.
> 
> Much of the RMG sector are likely to get owned by India and China at some point in the future if things go on like they are now.
> 
> As for the jute industry, India is already buying into it.
> 
> Did you know that Grameen Phone recently laid off around 3000 employees? The Bangladeshi government are suing Telenor, and trust me, they can't even do $hit. As I said, no one gives a damn about the AL now.
> 
> Bangladesh have good numbers in its talent pool, and will continue to grow in the future.
> 
> The economy still has the potential to be truly 'global' in the sense. But reliant.
> 
> Neither the AL or BNP are sustainable. I guess they can just take all their money, settle down in some Western country and live comfortably. Cause that's all they can do.



Lol, it's funny to see Muhith and other ministers crying over this loan....they first claim WB is corrupt then they claim they will fund the bridge and now they say they welcome WB to come back...lol I mean the Bangladesh Parliment is a house of 50+ year old clowns who don't know what the heck their doing

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## mb444

Kalu miah,

My view is that history is simply a version of the "truth". The prevailing one is always that adopted by the victors.

I personally am not particularly hung up on Pakistan because in its state it did not work for bangladeshis. 

Every leader from the east was forced down. It is also true that every western politician was also put down by the military who were overwhelmingly punjabi. After jinnah created the first rift with east by wanting Urdu to be the state language every subsequent forced action by the military who was seen as simply west Pakistani served to cement the view that bengalies has a choice live as second class citizen in Pakistan or be free.

Mujib was not such a leader who could have created such a feeling in the country. It existed, when he was not allowed to form government in 1970, it came to ahead and events proceeded to its natural conclusion. Indian actions were self serving but natural, the root cause of Pakistani breakup was in Pakistan itself.



So as I said looking at it from a Pakistani perspective he was a traitor. Bangladesh may not have existed but consciousness of a people who formed the Muslim league in Dhaka did exist and it was not prepared to play second fiddle within Pakistan.


Now in terms of BAL being treasonous, it is my personal belief that Mujib did what he did in good faith. I do not believe for one moment he thought Bangladesh would be a sovereign state. He wanted a federalised Pakistan and sought to use India as leverage.

But once the killing started in 71 it was over. Mujib who was absent all throughout the liberation war could not row back events. He was also incredibly Inept in dealing with India and governing. But it is my personal belief that mujib was loyal to his people but did not have command of events.


Post 1975 Hasina took refuge in India, was converted to a puppet. BAL won the last election bankrolled by India with connivance a section of the army who wanted amnesty for their crimes for the previous two years. 

Such is life in BD, BAL is certainly treacherous but only not to the extent you claim in my opinion.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Zabaniyah

If Mujib were alive today, I'm sure he'd be sorely disappointed in his daughter.


----------



## MilSpec

kalu_miah said:


> First of all, some disclaimer. I am a* loyal citizen of Bangladesh* (as well as the US), but I believe we need to find facts about our own history. So these are part of my efforts to uncover some uncomfortable facts and ask some hard questions. Please do not take these efforts to mean that I am pro or anti independence of Bangladesh, *I am neither and I accept it as a fait accompli, a done deal that cannot be reversed.* Like the majority of Bangladeshi's living today, I had no role in that conflict in 1971. As far as I know my parents did not play any role either.




From the highlighted part, it seems you would have preferred a unified Pakistan. Although there is no shame in admitting that, It has to be mentioned that if pakistani establishment had not treated bengalis with extreme prejudice, there wouldn't have been Bangladesh to begin with. 

Often Pakistani members here claim huge disparity in armed forces in east pakistan to be responsible for the loss in 71 and bangladeshi members express their sorrow over RAW involvement in east pakistan. 

I have a few questions which might shed some light on est pakistan .
Credit for formation of pakistan lies with east pakistani leaders and muslim league workers. In west pakistan muslim league had lost elections to Indian National Congress and Allies and frontiers and balochistan regions were under Baba Khan's pro-unified India ideology. Then why was even after 65 just around 55,000 armed personal in east pakistan and bulk of the air force, army and naval deployments in west pakistan. 

Wasn't East Pakistan the larger populace chunk, hence shouldn't independent battalions be raised in equal numbers in the east in case of emergency. Didn't the great ayub/yahya see that. Why were 20-30 aircrafts stationed in east whereas 200-350 combat aircrafts stationed in the west? 

West pakistan built a brand spanking new capital for themselves in islamabad, did they even build a university in dhaka??

Where was the bengali representation in the Army, navy, airforce, civil administation??

Where was the political representation in the Pakistan when the entire formation of pakistan was built on bengali political cadres?

As far as RAW conspiracies are concerned, 
Even if true of all specified charges, how was India able to carry out the mentioned conspiracies in East while not a leave moved in west. 

With such humongous deliberate neglect, wasn't formation of bangladesh inevitable??????????????


----------



## kalu_miah

mb444 said:


> My view is that history is simply a version of the "truth". The prevailing one is always that adopted by the victors.



History is subject to interpretation, yes, usually by the victors, in this case the victor has been India, not Pakistan or Bangladesh in my opinion, and they are trying to keep their version intact, not just among Indian population, but among Bangladeshi population as well, using their agent Awami League.

Pakistani's of course do not subscrible to the Indian version of history and they have their own version.

The one I am trying to come up with based on all available sources so far I have come accross, is neither Indian, or Pakistani or Bangladeshi version. So lets just say it is Kalu_miah's version of history, just like there is a Kalu_miah's version of world order and future projections.



mb444 said:


> I personally am not particularly hung up on Pakistan because in its state it did not work for bangladeshis.
> 
> Every leader from the east was forced down. It is also true that every western politician was also put down by the military who were overwhelmingly punjabi. After jinnah created the first rift with east by wanting Urdu to be the state language every subsequent forced action by the military who was seen as simply west Pakistani served to cement the view that bengalies has a choice live as second class citizen in Pakistan or be free.



My opinion about this kind of point of view is that it is short sighted and misguided and shows the impatience and incompetence of a political elite and middle class that are incapable of sound leadership of their masses. Pakistan needed more time to work out its problems and even if they could not be worked out, an amicable divorce could be sought without India's hand in it, who purposefully engineered a civil war, which was against our interest (killed people and severely injured relationship with another large Muslim nation).

I hold the same view about 1947 paritition also. In my view a peaceful nonviolent partition could have been achieved later if needed and if Hindu's and Muslims could not get along, there was no hurry to go for it in 1947.

Question I have for you is, where does this stop, should Sylheti's and Chittagonians have their own country, what about North Bengal, west of Jamuna and north of Padma? Also please look at this RAW project:
Border Delineation and Geopolitical Wrangling between India and Bangladesh | BDINN.com











> Although Bangabhumi Andolan does not seem to be very potent, Bangladesh is worried. According to Bangladeshi sources, the movement has set up more than a dozen training centres with clandestine supply of money and arms  with the objective of arms struggle for creation of the Hindu land. It has also staged public rallies on Indian territory, most recently in July 2010. Both Bangladeshi and Pakistani sources have accused India of supporting Bangabhumi Andolan in order to destabilize Bangladesh. According to Pakistan Defense, the Indian external intelligence agency RAW (Research and Analysis Wing) created the group in order to disintegrate Bangladesh. Several hard-core Hindu nationalist groups have rallied to the cause. A 2003 article on an extremist website asks, how long can the Hindus live under House-Arrest in the Barbaric Bhoot-Bangla of Bangladesh? The article itself is tellingly entitled, Recognize The New Hindu State As You Cowards Recognize Islamic Bogusdesh. (According to the website in which it appears, Bangladesh is a bogus countryhence Bogusdeshoriginally created by the British  [as East Pakistan] to cut off direct land, spiritual, trade and cultural communications between Hindu Bharat and Buddhist Myanmar.)
> If the Indian intelligence agency RAW has indeed created Bangabhumi Andolan to use against Bangladesh, it could be playing with a two-edged sword. Recent reports claim that the organization also wants to hive off a section of the Indian state of West Bengal for its proposed country, thus potentially diminishing India. It is entirely possible, however, that Bangladeshi partisans would regard such claims to Indian territory as a mere smokescreen, designed to superficially distance Bangabhumi Andolan from its handlers in Indian intelligence. In South Asian geopolitics, such allegations of subterfuge are hard to escape.


http://www.defence.pk/forums/bangla...olan-set-july-22-grand-rally-west-bengal.html

In my view, smaller country's create intractable geopolitical problems and they are more vulnerable on world stage while trying to make a place for themselves. You can find details of my views on this issue here, if you have not already seen this thread:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-...orld-order-road-map-future-8.html#post2772275

That said, I consider both break ups as irreversible and rather promote our joining ASEAN, where a new ASEAN+ can be created including Japan and South Korea. I have no intention to promote any union with Pakistan or India in the future.



mb444 said:


> Mujib was not such a leader who could have created such a feeling in the country. It existed, when he was not allowed to form government in 1970, it came to ahead and events proceeded to its natural conclusion. Indian actions were self serving but natural, the root cause of Pakistani breakup was in Pakistan itself.



Yes, that is a good statement. Mujib had no such brains, he was making moves with advices from Indian intelligence. Again with due respect, I disagree with your view, the root cause was not just in Pakistan it was threefold as I stated in OP:

1. Unfair treatment of Bengalis in East Pakistan, which was exeggerated
2. Presence of leaders such as Mujib who could be manipulated and used as "useful idiots" by Indian intelligence, because of their greed for power (note how this was proven during Mujib's rule 1972-1975)
3. Presence of India and its interest, which were mainly to break Pakistan at any cost, to reduce the threat from a United Pakistan and also to secure North East states



mb444 said:


> So as I said looking at it from a Pakistani perspective he was a traitor. Bangladesh may not have existed but consciousness of a people who formed the Muslim league in Dhaka did exist and it was not prepared to play second fiddle within Pakistan.



In 1947 Pakistan was created based on two nation theory, breaking it with covert advice and assistance from India, an enemy state who we had war with, all the while showing the 6 point movement as a deception facade asking for autonomy, I cannot accept this as an honorable course of action.

You yourself have mentioned two things:

1.


mb444 said:


> I do not believe for one moment he thought Bangladesh would be a sovereign state



2.


mb444 said:


> But once the killing started in 71 it was over



So using your words, we can see the feeling that was there before 1971 March 25, was for autonomy but not for independence way back in 1967-1969 when Agartala case and trial played out. Note my other post here, how Agartala case was used to make Mujib into a national hero, as he was a "victim of framing by ISI":
http://www.defence.pk/forums/bangla...what-does-mean-our-history-2.html#post3206420



mb444 said:


> Mujib who was absent all throughout the liberation war could not row back events. He was also incredibly Inept in dealing with India and governing. But it is my personal belief that mujib was loyal to his people but did not have command of events.



Mujib had already done enough in a decade long effort working with Indian intelligence, so his part was done long before 1971. But this is off topic and not relevant, as we are not discussing 1971 war, rather Agartala case.



mb444 said:


> Post 1975 Hasina took refuge in India, was converted to a puppet. BAL won the last election bankrolled by India with connivance a section of the army who wanted amnesty for their crimes for the previous two years.



These statements ring true.



mb444 said:


> BAL is certainly treacherous but only not to the extent you claim in my opinion.



Any entity that maintains working relationship with a foreign intelligence agency of a hostile nation, I would consider them as foreign agent and promptly put such people in jail with charges of espionage. Usually only neighbors who share borders can be hostile enough to harm a nations interest, so I would specially be wary of Indian intelligence and Burmese intelligence. On the other hand, I would welcome more relationship with ASEAN (or ASEAN+) nations, a strategic direction that I believe will be beneficial for Bangladesh and its future.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## kalu_miah

rubyjackass said:


> OMG!! Kalu miah's has his own world order. It is not a big deal to create his own history.
> 
> 
> And he quotes wikipedia which has no citations for the said quotes.
> Anyway nobody wanted their provinces to divide in 1947. Suhrawady did not want Bengal partition just as the Punjab leaguers did not want their province to divide. And FYI in 1905 Suhrawady and all the young generation of independence movement like Subhash Chandra Bose were bachchas. 1905 Bengal movement was a completely different phenomenon.In 1947 it became clear to everyone that Bengal will have to divide and cannot be united. People like Suhrawady asked for united Bengal so that Pakistan can keep the whole of Bengal, not because they wanted united Bengal at the cost of Pakistan.
> 
> And then Kalu miah quotes the wiki again saying Suhrawady had goons as bodyguards. Then takes a leap of faith and logic to believe that Mujib was one of the goons. You know what? I was one of the bodyguards too in my earlier life. And then he theorizes Mujib was dreaming about Bangladesh all along. So once again Kalu miah writes down history - a tale of how he wishes things to be. Let us offer him a carton of cleanex for personal use.



Wiki articles are from sources which are reliable most often. Your statement is flat wrong and misleading. United Bengal movement was for an independent state, separate from Pakistan and Suhrawardy was one of the people behind it:

BANGLAPEDIA: United Bengal Movement
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Bengal

And I have already shown evidence in OP that Mujib was dreaming of an independent East Bengal:
Swadhin Bangal Biplobi Parishad - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


> *The Swadhin Bangal Biplobi Parishad was an underground student political group organized in 1961 by Mujibur Rahman, the founder of Bangladesh. The group worked to oppose the military rule of Ayub Khan, as well as for greater autonomy and the independence of East Pakistan as "Bangladesh."*



Col. Shawkat Ali - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> *Although it was largely thought that the Case was only to frame Sheikh Mujib and others,[2] in 2010, and on the anniversary of the withdrawal of the Case on 22 February 2011, Shawkat Ali confessed to the Parliament at a point of order that the charges read out to them were accurate, stating that they formed a Shangram Parishad under Sheikh Mujib for the sedition and secession of East Pakistan.*[3][4]


----------



## mb444

Kalu miah,

Fair enough dude.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## kalu_miah

kumarkumar1867 said:


> Great Kalu-Miah,
> 
> How beautifully you avoided linguistic struggle between bengalis & west pakistanis.You also didnt mentioned anywhere how Mujib won elections with majority but was not allowed to take power by west pakistani lobby.
> Not to forget great famine of 1970 when hundreds of families were dying & west pakistanis who took colonizing benefits let their bengali contrymen die without any helping hand.
> 
> RAW/IB/India/Hindu all you can see is this.You cant see the pain of bengalis dying in famines, nor can you see gross neglect of development in east pakistan for 2 decades after independence, you will never see how sindhis, balochis , muhajirs are treated by Punjabis.
> 
> And you should bow & thank to Mujib, founder of Bangladesh who may be a Goonda as per your definition for liberating you from experiences your ancestors went through.
> 
> There is definitely role of India in Bangladesh creation but its not what as large as you claim here. Creation of Bangladesh helped India's stability. Even if Pakistan or Bangladesh was at India's place I dont think they would have acted differently, especially Pakistan, which always try to destabilize India by hook or crook.
> 
> But be it any country or state, if educated people like you are sorry citizen for its existence, soverignity or freedom then my friend no wonder why puppets (as you call them) are ruling your country.
> 
> PS : Please dont bring Islam to this 1971 case, neither Pakistan nor Bangladesh have any significant contribution to Islam/Muslims so stop whinning about it. Creation of Bangladesh or Division of Pakistan is a political case it has nothing to do with religion or anything. 1000s of Buhari muslims who were willing to leave Bangladesh were not accepted back by Pakistan also Bangladesh refused to shelter few hundred Rohignyas who were also muslim, so both Pakistanis & Bengalis must stop whinning about Muslims or Islam. *Religion is just a mask people use to make things look different.*
> 
> India is Bangladesh's Enemy?? and who says this.... You, Kalu Miah & few PDF members??
> We have no issues with Bangladesh except Illegal Immigration cases.
> 
> Welcome to Reality, here things are exactly opposite than you & few members dream about.



This is an example of muddled thinking and rant, trying to wish away the points I have mentioned in OP, and the above does not refute any of the points I made in OP.


----------



## kalu_miah

GR!FF!N said:


> @kalu Miah...
> 
> i'm respecting your hard work,but it didn't make sense.while you omitted a lot of important facts like the reason of 1971 war,genocides of innocent people,vasha andolon,you also twisted few words like Suhrawardy wanted an united bengal when everybody knows whats his plan was...India fought against british empire for an United India,not for Muslim Motherland.but when Musilm League saw an oppertunity,they jumped for it.read this,the day Kolkata bleed due to plan of Muslim League to divide India...
> 
> Direct Action Day - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Kolkata Riot is a major incident why Congress rejected United Bengal plan.because no way they wanted to loose a hindu dominated area when they couldn't keep muslim dominated portions of bengal or else another riot would be created.so you can easily guess what would be fate of an "United Bengal"..
> 
> You should join Politics......



Anything that happened after Agartala case and trial that ended in 1969, is not relevant for our discussion such as 1971 war.

Please read above post for details about United Bengal. Kolkata riot could be one of the reasons for rejecting the United Bengal, I do state that this idea was unpopular and was rejected by people in OP:
Huseyn Shaheed Suhrawardy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


> *But unfortunately Suhrawardy's plan gained no popularity, although among-st the people who wanted unity of east and west Bengal in 1905.*



I am more interested in international politics and may join politics in countries other than Bangladesh. Politics in Bangladesh is dirty and infested with Gunda's and killings. Other than suggesting broad direction for the country from a distance, I have no interest to get directly involved in Bangladesh politics as I do not plan to go back and live there.


----------



## kalu_miah

Jackdaws said:


> Kalu Miah,
> I love this line
> "Who gave the right to Mujib to seek help and become the partner of our 800 year old enemy entity, Hindu's of South Asia?"
> 
> Err - I would assume the fact that he was the truly elected leader of all of Pakistan gave him that right.
> 
> 800 year old enemy entity? You do realize if that were true - India would be in a constant state of civil war.
> 
> And this is what was done to your countrymen because they voted Mujib in. They exercised their right to universal adult franchise and this is what happened to them - I am posting this because it is a British fact finding mission - not Indian propaganda -



No one gave Mujib or other Awami League leaders the right to work with Indian intelligence and plan an armed rebellion in 1967 to engineer a secession to create Bangladesh, it is called treason, which the Agartala case was about. Read more in this post:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/bangla...what-does-mean-our-history-2.html#post3206420

No one gave them the right to do the same in 1971 after winning election in 1970 either, but they went ahead and did it anyways, while Indian intelligence egged them on.

What happened in 1971 civil war is not relevant to this discussion as it is limited to Agartala case and its significance.



sandy_3126 said:


> From the highlighted part, it seems you would have preferred a unified Pakistan. Although there is no shame in admitting that, It has to be mentioned that if pakistani establishment had not treated bengalis with extreme prejudice, there wouldn't have been Bangladesh to begin with.
> 
> Often Pakistani members here claim huge disparity in armed forces in east pakistan to be responsible for the loss in 71 and bangladeshi members express their sorrow over RAW involvement in east pakistan.
> 
> I have a few questions which might shed some light on est pakistan .
> Credit for formation of pakistan lies with east pakistani leaders and muslim league workers. In west pakistan muslim league had lost elections to Indian National Congress and Allies and frontiers and balochistan regions were under Baba Khan's pro-unified India ideology. Then why was even after 65 just around 55,000 armed personal in east pakistan and bulk of the air force, army and naval deployments in west pakistan.
> 
> Wasn't East Pakistan the larger populace chunk, hence shouldn't independent battalions be raised in equal numbers in the east in case of emergency. Didn't the great ayub/yahya see that. Why were 20-30 aircrafts stationed in east whereas 200-350 combat aircrafts stationed in the west?
> 
> West pakistan built a brand spanking new capital for themselves in islamabad, did they even build a university in dhaka??
> 
> Where was the bengali representation in the Army, navy, airforce, civil administation??
> 
> Where was the political representation in the Pakistan when the entire formation of pakistan was built on bengali political cadres?
> 
> As far as RAW conspiracies are concerned,
> Even if true of all specified charges, how was India able to carry out the mentioned conspiracies in East while not a leave moved in west.
> 
> With such humongous deliberate neglect, wasn't formation of bangladesh inevitable??????????????



All valid points you have mentioned, what ever we would have done between East and West Pakistan, how we would have solved it, it was our and only our affair, not for outsiders to interfere. I just wished that India did not put its hand in it using our "useful idiots". That is my central point. And these "useful idiots" are still with us (Awami League) and harming our national interest.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## livingdead

kalu mian, anything less than 'first asian president of USA' is beneath you.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## mb444

hinduguy said:


> kalu mian, anything less than 'first asian president of USA' is beneath you.


 
Dude,

No need to berate anyone for having a opinion different to our own. We should seek to understand all points of view.

Beyond the color of religion we of bangldesh, pakistan and india are the same people. We will thrive together or fail together. None of us are going anywhere. The borders will not change.

Ultimately the primary goal of our nations should be improve the lot of our respective citizens so all have a peaceful future.


----------



## MilSpec

kalu_miah said:


> All valid points you have mentioned, what ever we would have done between East and West Pakistan, *how we would have solved it, it was our and only our affair*, not for outsiders to interfere. I just wished that India did not put its hand in it using our "useful idiots". That is my central point. And these "useful idiots" are still with us (Awami League) and harming our national interest.



Assume your neighbor started killing each and everyone in his family with a butcher knife in front of you, What will you do? stand there and say it's their own business, and we should not interfere?????

Remind me again why did General Tikka Khan earned the nickname 'Butcher of Bengal' ????????

Maybe this might jog your memory " "Green land of East Pakistan will be painted red". It was painted red by Bengali blood."

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## rubyjackass

mb444 said:


> But once the killing started in 71 it was over. Mujib who was absent all throughout the liberation war could not row back events. He was also incredibly Inept in dealing with India and governing. But it is my personal belief that mujib was loyal to his people but did not have command of events.



Thanks for reminding about that.


----------



## kalu_miah

sandy_3126 said:


> Assume your neighbor started killing each and everyone in his family with a butcher knife in front of you, What will you do? stand there and say it's their own business, and we should not interfere?????
> 
> Remind me again why did General Tikka Khan earned the nickname 'Butcher of Bengal' ????????
> 
> Maybe this might jog your memory " "Green land of East Pakistan will be painted red". It was painted red by Bengali blood."



Tikka Khan and 1971 came much later in the picture. Mujib and Indian intelligence plan for secession and creation of Bangladesh go back to at least 1961, some say even earlier during 1950's. Even in 1971, RAW trained Awami agents started their Bihari killings first. But 1971 is not even the topic of discussion here. So no off topic discussions please.



hinduguy said:


> kalu mian, anything less than 'first asian president of USA' is beneath you.



Asian president of USA? I think its not happening in our life time. Asians are around 5% of US population. Besides I was not born in the US.

My goal is to be more active in Asian politics and contribute in any way possible to create an ASEAN+, hopefully by promoting this idea with the Japanese.


----------



## MilSpec

kalu_miah said:


> Tikka Khan and 1971 came much later in the picture. Mujib and Indian intelligence plan for secession and creation of Bangladesh go back to at least 1961, some say even earlier during 1950's. Even in 1971, RAW trained Awami agents started their Bihari killings first. But 1971 is not even the topic of discussion here. So no off topic discussions please.




I wont reply to Utter B.S.
thanks


----------



## asad71

1. When Partition took place IB, the political intel deptt of the Raj fell almost totally to India because it's HQ was at New Delhi. Bengal's subsidiary HQ was at Calcutta. India not only energized these offices but also kept the networks intact. Somehow IB of the Raj was dominated by Hindu officers and operatives in this part. ( One of the agitating students killed in 1952 was an Indian national, though Muslim. He is buried in his village across the border. People don't like to talk about this, but at times eye brows have been raised.) On the heels of Partition IB India made the first known contact for a dissolution of Pakistan through the DHC Office Dhaka. This was then located adjacent to the present day Ittefaq office. Ittefaq's "Declaration" had been made in the name of Motahar Husain of Barisal. Motahar was the man Indian IB contacted. Pak Intel discovered this and Motahar was arrested. However, eventually nothing happened to him and he kept his high profile presence in the media till he died about 10 years back.

2. From the Indian side the career of Deb Mukharjee, a diplomat who started as a 3rd Secy at Dhaka and ended as Hi Com to BD, is relevant to Agaratala Conspiracy, 1971 War and even the current Indo-BD relations.

3. To my knowledge and considered understanding this Conspiracy was the first goof-up by ISI and its chief Akbar. I say my knowledge because I have known some of the players involved. The main conspirators were dismissed bureaucrats charged under EBDO/303. Among them Ruhul Quddus, later to become Principal Secy, was a hard core. But their effort was really limited to drawing room talks. IB India was able to introduce some low level people, and they were the hardcore. Among them was Steward Mujib of PIA. Not much of research has been done on him and he escaped all attention till he died. Same with another man, Beg and the navy sailor Sulatn. 

4.Yes, Lieut Comdr Moazzem was also a hard core. But the other army officers were not directly involved in the project still in the thinking stage. Col Shawkat, Ord was posted in Karachi where he got involved through Moazzem. He involved Capt Alim Bhuyan, another Ord officer, who became an approver. Other prominent officers were Nuruzzaman the only infantry officer who later became JRB chief,was really an abettor; Col Alam and Col Khurshid were doctors; Huda was an ASC officer who was back in service after 1971, transferred to infantry, got promoted to Col and appointed bde comdr when he was killed.

5. Whatever Hasina or Shawkat now say, Sheikh was not involved in this. During his lifetime he never once mentioned this. If true then then why would he miss out on this "achievement"? Btw, Sheikh also never said that he had declared BD's independence. Yes, others did and he did not refute. Both Shawkat and Hasina have huge political mileage to gain. And this would cross out any misgivings about Sheikh not participating in the war. Shawakat is marginalized in BAL having refused to join the party after it was revived. He had continued to stay with Razzaq's BAKSAL which had annoyed Hasina.

6. Notably when the rag tag group of conspirators went to Agartala, Stweard Mujib took the leadership.He was the one who had jotted down the future course of the new state and signed the famous Secret Pact. India has always taken this document as the starting point of all Indo-BD relations thereafter, 1971 inclusive.

7. Having said all that I must state that it is quite probable that the hardcore conspirators and their IB India handlers had assumed that once E Bengal became volatile Sheikh would be catapulted into leadership. Being a man with wide contacts in the society it is not impossible that he had known something was cooking. But there is no record or evidence to suggest that he mad any effort to contact them or to conspire with them. Except some of the bureaucrats whom he would have met in professional life, Sheikh had not met any of the other arrested earlier.

8. In defense of Akbar and the newly formed ISI I must say that they were under great pressure from Ayub to size up Sheikh. Here was a mistake that W Pak dominated administration was to repeat in 1971. A political issue is best solved politically. Involving the military or state agencies often result in messy consequences.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## airmarshal

kalu_miah said:


> Please look at details here and the listed sources:
> 
> Assassination of Sheikh Mujibur Rahman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



So what was the reason for that? If Mujib was the liberator of Bengal, then why was he killed by his own people? I want to know Bangladeshi perspective.


----------



## Rajaraja Chola

Moral of the thread: Kalu have problems, cant digest daily, that his MUSLIM country got help from HINDU India to get independence... OP does not care about the independence he enjoys now, nor the killings of his country mens in 71, but cant imagine kaffirs helping BD...
Talking about 800 year old enimity?> Can i know how? Invaders destroyed lotta temples just for the sake of destroying... Who started this cycle? 
The OP in my mind is a freak jamaati, who knows no value of friendship, but hatred against other religions...

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## kobiraaz

airmarshal said:


> So what was the reason for that? If Mujib was the liberator of Bengal, then why was he killed by his own people? I want to know Bangladeshi perspective.


The so called liberator became tyrant and got eradicated unfortunately!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Zabaniyah

airmarshal said:


> So what was the reason for that? If Mujib was the liberator of Bengal, then why was he killed by his own people? I want to know Bangladeshi perspective.



Many AL men started looting whatever was left of East Pakistan. Even banks. And he was powerless to stop it. He wasn't a bad man, but a poor administrator. 

He also banned all political parties, media outlets. His model of a command economy was failing miserably. 

And he didn't get along well with the army (the very men who fought for him). 

Hence, the result. 

If Bhutto gave Mujib the power, the latter wouldn't even have lasted for six months!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Redbull

Kalu is making a lot of sense here. 1971 was wrong on Pakistan's part but I still believe in unity of both countries.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## bc040400065

Zabaniya said:


> Many AL men started looting whatever was left of East Pakistan. Even banks. And he was powerless to stop it. He wasn't a bad man, but a poor administrator.
> 
> He also banned all political parties, media outlets. His model of a command economy was failing miserably.
> 
> And he didn't get along well with the army (the very men who fought for him).
> 
> Hence, the result.
> 
> If Bhutto gave Mujib the power, the latter wouldn't even have lasted for six months!


 
the only solution to the 1971 crisis was , appoint mujeeb the Prime minister and hand him over full power and authority for whole of Pakistan. thats what i think he wanted to be the PM, thats what bhotto wanted as well, and yahya;s plan was no different. If mujeeb was made PM i think in few months time his popularity would have come down to zero and we would have saved pakistan because after all it was a power struggle.nothing more nothing less.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Zabaniyah

bc040400065 said:


> the only solution to the 1971 crisis was , appoint mujeeb the Prime minister and hand him over full power and authority for whole of Pakistan. thats what i think he wanted to be the PM, thats what bhotto wanted as well, and yahya;s plan was no different. If mujeeb was made PM i think in few months time his popularity would have come down to zero and we would have saved pakistan because after all it was a power struggle.nothing more nothing less.



Of-course Mujib wanted the PM position. He won the elections back then. The West Pakistani leadership were always wary of Bengalis dominating the politics of Pakistan due to the large Bengali population. 

But then, like you and me said, Mujib wouldn't have lasted very long at the helm.


----------



## kalu_miah

asad71 said:


> 1. When Partition took place IB, the political intel deptt of the Raj fell almost totally to India because it's HQ was at New Delhi. Bengal's subsidiary HQ was at Calcutta. India not only energized these offices but also kept the networks intact. Somehow IB of the Raj was dominated by Hindu officers and operatives in this part. ( One of the agitating students killed in 1952 was an Indian national, though Muslim. He is buried in his village across the border. People don't like to talk about this, but at times eye brows have been raised.) On the heels of Partition IB India made the first known contact for a dissolution of Pakistan through the DHC Office Dhaka. This was then located adjacent to the present day Ittefaq office. Ittefaq's "Declaration" had been made in the name of Motahar Husain of Barisal. Motahar was the man Indian IB contacted. Pak Intel discovered this and Motahar was arrested. However, eventually nothing happened to him and he kept his high profile presence in the media till he died about 10 years back.
> 
> 2. From the Indian side the career of Deb Mukharjee, a diplomat who started as a 3rd Secy at Dhaka and ended as Hi Com to BD, is relevant to Agaratala Conspiracy, 1971 War and even the current Indo-BD relations.
> 
> 3. To my knowledge and considered understanding this Conspiracy was the first goof-up by ISI and its chief Akbar. I say my knowledge because I have known some of the players involved. The main conspirators were dismissed bureaucrats charged under EBDO/303. Among them Ruhul Quddus, later to become Principal Secy, was a hard core. But their effort was really limited to drawing room talks. IB India was able to introduce some low level people, and they were the hardcore. Among them was Steward Mujib of PIA. Not much of research has been done on him and he escaped all attention till he died. Same with another man, Beg and the navy sailor Sulatn.
> 
> 4.Yes, Lieut Comdr Moazzem was also a hard core. But the other army officers were not directly involved in the project still in the thinking stage. Col Shawkat, Ord was posted in Karachi where he got involved through Moazzem. He involved Capt Alim Bhuyan, another Ord officer, who became an approver. Other prominent officers were Nuruzzaman the only infantry officer who later became JRB chief,was really an abettor; Col Alam and Col Khurshid were doctors; Huda was an ASC officer who was back in service after 1971, transferred to infantry, got promoted to Col and appointed bde comdr when he was killed.
> 
> 5. Whatever Hasina or Shawkat now say, Sheikh was not involved in this. During his lifetime he never once mentioned this. If true then then why would he miss out on this "achievement"? Btw, Sheikh also never said that he had declared BD's independence. Yes, others did and he did not refute. Both Shawkat and Hasina have huge political mileage to gain. And this would cross out any misgivings about Sheikh not participating in the war. Shawakat is marginalized in BAL having refused to join the party after it was revived. He had continued to stay with Razzaq's BAKSAL which had annoyed Hasina.
> 
> 6. Notably when the rag tag group of conspirators went to Agartala, Stweard Mujib took the leadership.He was the one who had jotted down the future course of the new state and signed the famous Secret Pact. India has always taken this document as the starting point of all Indo-BD relations thereafter, 1971 inclusive.
> 
> 7. Having said all that I must state that it is quite probable that the hardcore conspirators and their IB India handlers had assumed that once E Bengal became volatile Sheikh would be catapulted into leadership. Being a man with wide contacts in the society it is not impossible that he had known something was cooking. But there is no record or evidence to suggest that he mad any effort to contact them or to conspire with them. Except some of the bureaucrats whom he would have met in professional life, Sheikh had not met any of the other arrested earlier.
> 
> 8. In defense of Akbar and the newly formed ISI I must say that they were under great pressure from Ayub to size up Sheikh. Here was a mistake that W Pak dominated administration was to repeat in 1971. A political issue is best solved politically. Involving the military or state agencies often result in messy consequences.




1,2,3 & 4. Very good information from your own personal first hand account, thanks for your contribution.

5,6 & 7. I am sorry, but with due respect, I disagree with your opinion that Mujib was not involved. If you and I were the head and deputy of IB and RAW, what would we have done?

- we would make sure we find a popular figure head and create a movement to make him even more popular
- we would keep the conspiracy limited to lower rung and never let these lower rungs have direct contact with the figure head, so as to maintain plausible deniability for the figure head
- it is possible that Hasina and Shawkat is now lying to gain political mileage, but I doubt this narrative for several reasons
- *I think both Indian intelligence and Mujib knew and carefully followed the lack of physical direct contact to maintain plausible deniability*
- but *Mujib in my opinion was fully aware and in sync with moves suggested by Indian intelligence and he followed these moves recommended by them*, here are my reasons and evidence for having this belief:

1. *Mujib did inherit the idea of independent United Bengal from Suhrawardy (who gave it up after 1947 partition) and was fascinated by it and I believe it became his obsession and dream, even if it meant independence of a weak vulnerable East Begnal which would become a vassal state of India*. But he did not have enough knowledge of basic geopolitics to understand what a great disaster this would mean for not just the people of Bangladesh but for the entire Muslim world (breaking the largest Muslim country in the world), so because of these reasons, he could be easily manipulated by Indian intelligence

2. *Mujib was a demagogue, a charismatic big mouth who had little idea of geopolitics or even political manipulation, so what he accomplished from 1950's to 1971, I believe this would not have been possible without direct or indirect guidance from Indian intelligence. The proof of his incompetence and lack of vision is from his rule 1972-1975*:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/bangladesh-defence/197251-mujibs-rule-bangladesh-1972-1975-a.html

*This happened because Indian intelligence were no longer involved in running or providing guidance for Awami League or Mujib did not listen to them anymore, which was in the end fatal for him*.

3.Swadhin Bangal Biplobi Parishad - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> *The Swadhin Bangal Biplobi Parishad was an underground student political group organized in 1961 by Mujibur Rahman, the founder of Bangladesh. The group worked to oppose the military rule of Ayub Khan, as well as for greater autonomy and the independence of East Pakistan as "Bangladesh."*



4. Col. Shawkat Ali - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> *Although it was largely thought that the Case was only to frame Sheikh Mujib and others,[2] in 2010, and on the anniversary of the withdrawal of the Case on 22 February 2011, Shawkat Ali confessed to the Parliament at a point of order that the charges read out to them were accurate, stating that they formed a Shangram Parishad under Sheikh Mujib for the sedition and secession of East Pakistan.[3][4]*



5. 'Agartala conspiracy case was not false' | Bangladesh | bdnews24.com



> Dhaka, Feb 23 (bdnews24.com)&#8212;An accused in the Agartala Conspiracy Case, deputy speaker Shawkat Ali, has told parliament that the charges brought against the accused were not false.
> 
> *Ali, at the end of a point of order in Wednesday's session, said, "The charges against us read out on the first day of hearing in the case were absolutely right." *
> 
> *"We formed a Sangram Parishad led by Bangabandhu to free East Pakistan through armed protest,"* he said.
> 
> During the point of order session, senior Awami League leader *Tofail Ahmed recounted the days before and after the withdrawal of the case on Feb 22, 1969.
> 
> He said that the country would not be independent if the case was not filed. "It was not a fake case."
> 
> Addressing the deputy speaker, he said, "You planned to liberate the country."
> 
> Earlier in a discussion organised at Dhaka University's Senate Bhaban marking the Agartala Case Withdrawal Day, Tofail said the accused in the Agartala case had actually laid the foundation of the country's independence. *
> 
> Agartala Conspiracy Case was a sedition case filed by the Pakistan government against Sheikh Mujibur Rahman, leader of the then East Pakistan Awami League, and 34 others.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Skallagrim

Bangladesh Sangbad Sangstha (BSS)


DHAKA, Feb 23, 2013 (BSS) - Jatiya Sangsad (JS) Deputy Speaker Shawkat Ali today called for writing the right information in textbooks about the historic Agartala conspiracy case. Father of the Nation Bangabandhu Sheikh Mujibur Rahman used to practise politics in the democratic way, but he did not reject arms struggle for the country, he said speaking at a discussion meeting at Bijoy Ketan Museum at Dhaka cantonment marking the 44th anniversary of release of the accused persons in Agartala conspiracy case. It should be written in the textbooks that a group of Bangalees had planned to liberate the country through armed struggle before the independence achieved on December 16, 1971, he said. The deputy speaker said the Agartala conspiracy case was dubbed as a false case as part of a strategy at that time, but actually it was not false. A body of the accused in Agartala conspiracy case organized the discussion meeting with M Abdul Ahad in the chair, said a press release. Accused in the case Col (Retd) Shamsul Alam, Flight Sergeant (Retd) Abdul Jalil, Flight Sergeant (Retd) Mahfuzul Bari and family members of some accused spoke at the meeting. Tofail Ahmed, MP, language movement veteran Col (Retd) SD Ahmed, journalist Abed Khan, Deputy Speaker's spouse Majeda Shawkat Ali addressed the meeting. The speakers expressed solidarity with the protesters at Shahbagh and demanded quick completion of war crimes trials.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Guynextdoor2

kalu_miah said:


> No one gave Mujib or other Awami League leaders the right to work with Indian intelligence and plan an armed rebellion in 1967 to engineer a secession to create Bangladesh, it is called treason, which the Agartala case was about. Read more in this post:
> No one gave them the right to do the same in 1971 after winning election in 1970 either, but they went ahead and did it anyways, while Indian intelligence egged them on.
> 
> What happened in 1971 civil war is not relevant to this discussion as it is limited to Agartala case and its significance.
> 
> 
> 
> All valid points you have mentioned, what ever we would have done between East and West Pakistan, how we would have solved it, it was our and only our affair, not for outsiders to interfere. I just wished that India did not put its hand in it using our "useful idiots". That is my central point. And these "useful idiots" are still with us (Awami League) and harming our national interest.



I don't get you dude, how is it 'treason'? That is a term specific to the law of some country. The day Bangladesh became independent, all your leaders actions under pakistan's laws become irrelevant- including their past actions and the only thing that counts is if the people of bangladesh look at it that way. Can the british say today that washington commited treason? Before independence, yes- after independence that term is dropped against him for good.


----------



## kalu_miah

Guynextdoor2 said:


> I don't get you dude, how is it 'treason'? That is a term specific to the law of some country. The day Bangladesh became independent, all your leaders actions under pakistan's laws become irrelevant- including their past actions and the only thing that counts is if the people of bangladesh look at it that way. Can the british say today that washington commited treason? Before independence, yes- after independence that term is dropped against him for good.



The two situation is not analogous. Mujib was no George Washington. May be Ziaur Rahman was more similar, who declared independence and fought.


----------



## Guynextdoor2

Loki said:


> Well, the Agartala Conspiracy indeed really did happen. There is no question about that.
> 
> The question is, why was Mujib along with his compatriots set free? Strange as it may seem.
> 
> I guess Hasina has now shut her big mouth regarding the issue. Honestly, I respect Mujib for speaking out for the rights of Bengalis. But the man really went overkill. And a delusional one at that. We still see that today.
> 
> Some powerful folks simply refuse to take responsibility for history.



i seriously am confused. Were'nt they the same people who gave you your independence? So they thought they could use armed rebellion? Why would that be a problem? You got your end objective right?


----------



## kalu_miah

Guynextdoor2 said:


> i seriously am confused. Were'nt they the same people who gave you your independence? So they thought they could use armed rebellion? Why would that be a problem? You got your end objective right?



Actually it is India that got its end objective, but we have been left holding the bag since our mistake in 1947.


----------



## Guynextdoor2

kalu_miah said:


> Actually it is India that got its end objective, but we have been left holding the bag since our mistake in 1947.



Bangladesh is a 'Country' not a 'bag'. Maybe it's time you gave it more respect than what you're giving it. I'd never bring down any person in my country who has even peripheral roles in it's independence.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Android

kalu_miah said:


> Actually it is India that got its end objective, but we have been left holding the bag since our mistake in 1947.



what mistake???


----------



## kalu_miah

Android said:


> what mistake???



I consider 1947 partition decision by then Muslim League leaders a mistake that cannot be reversed.



Guynextdoor2 said:


> Bangladesh is a 'Country' not a 'bag'. Maybe it's time you gave it more respect than what you're giving it. I'd never bring down any person in my country who has even peripheral roles in it's independence.



And you are trying to teach me about something, a person you have never met or know nothing about, just based on a few posts and words you have seen? And then I wonder why people find a good portion of the Indian posters strange and delusional.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Guynextdoor2

kalu_miah said:


> I consider 1947 partition decision by then Muslim League leaders a mistake that cannot be reversed.
> 
> 
> 
> And you are trying to teach me about something, a person you have never met or know nothing about, just based on a few posts and words you have seen? And then I wonder why people find a good portion of the Indian posters strange and delusional.



I'm only reacting to what I'm hearing dude. Some things we'll never say about our country- even for debate. It's the kind of gospel we never touch. Coz those historic events are too big and rare- the important thing is they finally happened, not that they happened this way or that way.


----------



## kalu_miah

Guynextdoor2 said:


> I'm only reacting to what I'm hearing dude. Some things we'll never say about our country- even for debate. It's the kind of gospel we never touch. Coz those historic events are too big and rare- the important thing is they finally happened, not that they happened this way or that way.



History becomes a victim of propaganda and politics. It is our responsibility as human beings to find the facts and set history straight. Why is it important, because nations, just like people stumble and fall and make mistakes. In order to learn from these mistakes we need to know history as close to the facts on the ground as possible. A nation and people that does not know its own correct history, is bound to make the same mistakes twice.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Guynextdoor2

kalu_miah said:


> History becomes a victim of propaganda and politics. It is our responsibility as human beings to find the facts and set history straight. Why is it important, because nations, just like people stumble and fall and make mistakes. In order to learn from these mistakes we need to know history as close to the facts on the ground as possible. A nation and people that does not know its own correct history, is bound to make the same mistakes twice.



Ehhhh...on one hand my interpretation of the 'mistake' comment you made is that you would have preferred a united bengal (E+W)- I'm not clear how the conspiracy had any kind of relationship to that political dream. In any case creation of a united bengal was one of many historic possibilities- not the only one, and each of these is a rare histoic event in itself. You can't really feel too bad that your preferred option didn't work out- that's like living in regret coz you weren't born to bill gates and inherit a fortune. On the other hand an equally rare historic event- independent land of bangladesh did happen, so maybe you're just as well off. In any case INDIAN bengalis don;t have any regrets about not being a part of your proposed union so the whole issue is pointless anyway.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## kalu_miah

Guynextdoor2 said:


> Ehhhh...on one hand my interpretation of the 'mistake' comment you made is that you would have preferred a united bengal (E+W)- I'm not clear how the conspiracy had any kind of relationship to that political dream. In any case creation of a united bengal was one of many historic possibilities- not the only one, and each of these is a rare histoic event in itself. You can't really feel too bad that your preferred option didn't work out- that's like living in regret coz you weren't born to bill gates and inherit a fortune. On the other hand an equally rare historic event- independent land of bangladesh did happen, so maybe you're just as well off. In any case INDIAN bengalis don;t have any regrets about not being a part of your proposed union so the whole issue is pointless anyway.



Not sure where you found the united bengal bit, I never said such things in any of my posts. What I said is that I consider 1947 partition a mistake. This was not about united Bengal.

As for the comment about me not being born to Bill Gates, not sure what was the point of this comment, but if you meant I should be sorry about my country, well, we will do what we can to change our destiny, please do not worry about our future and fate.


----------



## Guynextdoor2

kalu_miah said:


> Not sure where you found the united bengal bit, I never said such things in any of my posts. What I said is that I consider 1947 partition a mistake. This was not about united Bengal.
> 
> As for the comment about me not being born to Bill Gates, not sure what was the point of this comment, but if you meant I should be sorry about my country, well, we will do what we can to change our destiny, please do not worry about our future and fate.



I'm wondering if I'm misreading your posts or if you're misreading mine. maybe we shouldn't debate because clearly something is wrong here.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## kalu_miah

Guynextdoor2 said:


> I'm wondering if I'm misreading your posts or if you're misreading mine. maybe we shouldn't debate because clearly something is wrong here.



Agreed, we have a mutual comprehension problem.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## mb444

In my opinion it does not mean jack. Separation was inevitable due to west pakistans misguided sense of superiority and entitlement. It was only a matter of time. Agartola is irrelevant.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## KRAIT

mb444 said:


> In my opinion it does not mean jack. Separation was inevitable due to west misguided sense of superiority and entitlement. It was only a matter of time. Agartola is irrelevant.


They don't believe it. Independent sources have told what was the wrong done to East Pakistan which resulted in increasing hostility. But they think India did this, did that.


----------



## mb444

KRAIT said:


> They don't believe it. Independent sources have told what was the wrong done to East Pakistan which resulted in increasing hostility. But they think India did this, did that.



India took full advantage of the internal issues within pakistan to dismember a Muslim state for its own interest.
It is no longer relevant what Pakistanis believes from Bangladeshs perspective.

Bangladesh standing on its own is manifest destiny and I am glad for it. However strategically it has also made us more vulnarable vis-a-vis expansionist and hedgemonistic hindutva India.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## KRAIT

mb444 said:


> India took full advantage of the internal issues within pakistan to dismember a Muslim state for its own interest.It is no longer relevant what Pakistanis believes from Bangladeshs perspective.Bangladesh standing on its own is manifest destiny and I am glad for it. However strategically it has also made us more vulnarable vis-a-vis expansionist and hedgemonistic hindutva India.


Well at least you ron't have problem of extremism of that order like in Pakistan.

It was important for us otherwise we would had a nuclear armed East Pakistan, a much bigger threat to our NE states.


----------



## Md Akmal

Xestan said:


> It's early morning in Sub-Continent, you'll soon have a lot of company, enough to tell you their views on the subject, lets see if PDF is all filled with Razakars only. *Till then have some coffee *



@ Hey man ! to whom you are talking to have coffee ? He is not habituated to take coffee rather cannot afford to take it. At best he can go for " lal cha or lal chai ".


----------



## Maira La

mb444 said:


> India took full advantage of the internal issues within pakistan to dismember a Muslim state for its own interest.
> It is no longer relevant what Pakistanis believes from Bangladeshs perspective.
> 
> Bangladesh standing on its own is manifest destiny and I am glad for it. However strategically it has also made us more vulnarable vis-a-vis expansionist and hedgemonistic hindutva India.



India's reach within BD's politics is quite scary. Overnight, they turned a country with such great economic potential into a country on the brink of a civil war. And all this simply to get rid of a party that supports NE separatists.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Kyusuibu Honbu

apo_mEaTgRiNdEr said:


> India's reach within BD's politics is quite scary. Overnight, they turned a country with such great economic potential into a country on the brink of a civil war. *And all this simply to get rid of a party that supports NE separatists.*



Is that supposed to be wrong for India?

Afterall India did support Mukti Bahini in East Pakistan in return for East Pakistan being an external base for Naga Mizo separatist all over 1960s.


----------



## Maira La

Syama Ayas said:


> *Is that supposed to be wrong for India?
> *
> Afterall India did support Mukti Bahini in East Pakistan in return for East Pakistan being an external base for Naga Mizo separatist all over 1960s.





apo_mEaTgRiNdEr said:


> India's reach within BD's politics is quite scary. Overnight, *they turned a country with such great economic potential into a country on the brink of a civil war.* And all this simply to get rid of a party that supports NE separatists.



And that's not wrong? After all, we fought with Indian Army to break up Pakistan in 1971, and all that to live in a hell hole right? No wonder BD has been so hostile ever after.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## animelive

apo_mEaTgRiNdEr said:


> And that's not wrong? *After all, we fought with Indian Army to break up Pakistan in 1971, and all that to live in a hell hole right?* No wonder BD has been so hostile ever after.



Don't be so disrespectful towards your own country, you clearly have a sense of inferiority and insecurity but that offends me highly. No one is living in a hellhole, YOU are your country so if you cannot make it better, better not whine about the stuff taking place.


----------



## Dillinger

apo_mEaTgRiNdEr said:


> And that's not wrong? After all, we fought with Indian Army to break up Pakistan in 1971, and all that to live in a hell hole right? No wonder BD has been so hostile ever after.



The Mukti Bahini fought alongside the Indian Army for an independent nation and in conclusion attained an independent nation- BD. So, what exactly are you trying to insinuate when you say that they didn't do all that to live in a "hell hole"?


----------



## Dillinger

kalu_miah said:


> I consider 1947 partition decision by then Muslim League leaders a mistake that cannot be reversed.



You are going to have to amplify upon this sir. If the 1947 partition is not satisfactory in your opinion then what alternative would have pleased you. Are you simply exclaiming that the amount of land encompassed by East Pakistan/ Bangladesh is unsatisfactory or that the partition should have been done on some other terms?


----------



## Guynextdoor2

mb444 said:


> India took full advantage of the internal issues within pakistan to dismember a Muslim state for its own interest.
> It is no longer relevant what Pakistanis believes from Bangladeshs perspective.
> 
> Bangladesh standing on its own is manifest destiny and I am glad for it. However strategically it has also made us more vulnarable vis-a-vis expansionist and hedgemonistic hindutva India.



India's role is peripheral. The day Bhutto decided not to hand over power to Mujib, separation became completely justified. YOU CANNOT NOT HAND OVER POWER after losing an election- period.India can't play a role in a big event like that. All that we could do was that once the fire began, we stepped in to protect our intersts. The big stuff was always done by other players.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## kalu_miah

Guynextdoor2 said:


> I don't get you dude, how is it 'treason'? That is a term specific to the law of some country. The day Bangladesh became independent, all your leaders actions under pakistan's laws become irrelevant- including their past actions and the only thing that counts is if the people of bangladesh look at it that way. Can the british say today that washington commited treason? Before independence, yes- after independence that term is dropped against him for good.



I read some of the old posts in this thread, if you will notice the dates, this thread is an old one, and it was revived with new information.

I also read your comments again. The charge against Mujib and others in the Agartala case was of treason or sedition, if I am not mistaken. We are not dealing with Mujib's role in post 1971 Bangladesh, rather a point of history in Pakistan in 1968. I think you are mixing up the present with the past, if I may say that.

Of course Pakistan no longer exists in its earlier form so legal status of these issues changed since then, but historical facts cannot be changed, they have already happened. The subject of this thread is not about current legal status of past actors, rather uncovering historical facts.



Guynextdoor2 said:


> i seriously am confused. Were'nt they the same people who gave you your independence? So they thought they could use armed rebellion? Why would that be a problem? You got your end objective right?



No they are not same people. Some may have fought in 1971, but Agartala case and its actors are different from the people who fought in 1971 war. What we are discussing here is Agartala case not 1971 war.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Kyusuibu Honbu

apo_mEaTgRiNdEr said:


> And that's not wrong? After all, we fought with Indian Army to break up Pakistan in 1971, and all that to live in a hell hole right? No wonder BD has been so hostile ever after.



I don't think we understand eachother.

My context was India will do everything in her power to stop destabilization of NE India, and make any external entity involved pay . I find nothing wrong with that as it is self-defense.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## kalu_miah

Guynextdoor2 said:


> Bangladesh is a 'Country' not a 'bag'. Maybe it's time you gave it more respect than what you're giving it. I'd never bring down any person in my country who has even peripheral roles in it's independence.



Note that I mentioned the mistake in 1947, which is partition. Like Abul Kalam Azad, the late congress leader, I consider the partition as the great mistake, I was not talking about 1971 or Bangladesh. After 1947 partition and the way the Radcliffe borders were delineated, it was inevitable that the two wings of Pakistan would separate. Lord Mountbatten gave it 25 years and it lasted 24 years and 7 months. I have no issue with this separation and having an independent Bangladesh, the issue I have is the way it was done, with India engineering it from behind the scenes, creating a civil war where a whole bunch of our people were killed. If India had a wiser leader, unlike Indira, he/she would have let Pakistan on its own devices and let it separate on its own terms without India's hand in it. Then India would have no blame whatsoever, even if there were people killed in this separation process. But the way it happened with India as the major backer and puppet master from behind, I see blood of 1971 in India's hand, just as there was blood in the hands of all direct actors and players within Pakistan.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Md Akmal

kumarkumar1867 said:


> Great Kalu-Miah,
> 
> @ You also didnt mentioned anywhere how Mujib won elections with majority but was not allowed to take power by west pakistani lobby.
> 
> @ Not to forget great famine of 1970 when hundreds of families were dying & west pakistanis who took colonizing benefits let their bengali contrymen die without any helping hand. RAW/IB/India/Hindu all you can see is this.You cant see the pain of bengalis dying in famines, nor can you see gross neglect of development in east pakistan for 2 decades after independence, you will never see how sindhis, balochis , muhajirs are treated by Punjabis.
> 
> @ And you should bow & thank to Mujib, founder of Bangladesh who may be a Goonda as per your definition for liberating you from experiences your ancestors went through.



@ Definitely the Pakistani Military ruler wanted to handover power to the majority elected people rather I will say they conspirated with Muslim oriented political parties not to come to power. First of all, Yahya did not came to power automatically rather he came to power through a silent military coup. At that time I was in Rawalpindi. What I saw just before Yahya declared ML, Ayub called a round table conference where all politicians were supposed to attend. All accept Bhutto joint the conference. It was at this meeting at Lahore where Mujib suddenly declared his famous six points. At that time Muslim Leaque was divided into three fraction namely Counsil Muslim Leaque, Convention Muslim Leaque(Ayub-Fuzlul Karim) and Qaumi Muslim Leaque.Yahya after coming to power at once freezed the central fund of Convection Muslim Leaque. After few days later sacked or compulsary retired near about 500 senior CSP officers. Soon he freezed the funds of 22 Industrial Families of Pakistan. All these activities clearly indicates that Yahya was making a conspiracy that under any circumstances the Mulim Leaque to remain out of power. His preference was either Mujib or Butto ? The election of 1970 was not at all free and fair. Every where there was a Chattra Leaque. No right wing political parties were given free hand to campaign. Finding this pro-Chinese group NAP Bhashani boycotted the election that pave the way for Mujib to go unchallened. So only opposition was poor Jamaat and it was this Golam Azam who participated from Karaniganj Dacca against Awami Candidate. Kader Mullah was his main /chief election campaigner. However after the election till 17 March 1971, Yahya was ready to hand over power to Mujib but Mujib and his followers were rigid in six point programme. Mujib could have fled away but he also was worried that in that case he might be killed or assasinated by the RAW elements. Dr Kamal Hossain (having a Sindhi wife) also worried about the direct involvement of RAW. Finding no alternative he also opted for surrender to Pakistani army on 2/4 April 1971. Infact RAW and our Bengali agents never wanted any political solution with the West Pakistan. That was the main reason they started killing the non-Bengalise even in the first week of March 1971. All these affairs were well known to Mujib but he was in thick soup. During these critical days Mujib's real political adviser, the American Ambassador came to Dacca and informed him that America does not want to see the break up of Pakistan. So Mujib was in a real dilema ! On the other hand every thing was under RAW's control.

_*@ There was no famine in 1970 but definitely there was a cycline where near about 5 lacs of people died. Pakistan tried to help the people. I remember all the students of West Pakistan used to collect money for the East Pakistani people from the street every day. What ever you heard those were political propaganda by the media and SK Mujib. During that time Yahya was on official tour at China. Soon he cut short his visit and straight way came to Dacca but the great mistake he did he never went to mate the people in the coastal region but clearly instructed Army Navy, Airforce and other govt officials to help the effected people. He agrued to Mujib to defer the election date but Mujib did not agreed. *_

@ Who told you may dear Indian friend that in two decades of Pakistan era there were no developments ? Fot your information even after expoitation the economy of the then East Pakistan was a "Namuna" in 3rd World Countries. People used to visit to see East Pakistan. IN those days the economy of Pakistan were being compared with the economy of South Korea. In 1947, there was not a single Jute Mills but in 1970 atleast there was 77 Jute Miles.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Guynextdoor2

kalu_miah said:


> Note that I mentioned the mistake in 1947, which is partition. Like Abul Kalam Azad, the late congress leader, I consider the partition as the great mistake, I was not talking about 1971 or Bangladesh. After 1947 partition and the way the Radcliffe borders were delineated, it was inevitable that the two wings of Pakistan would separate. Lord Mountbatten gave it 25 years and it lasted 24 years and 7 months. I have no issue with this separation and having an independent Bangladesh, the issue I have is the way it was done, with India engineering it from behind the scenes, creating a civil war where a whole bunch of our people were killed. If India had a wiser leader, unlike Indira, he/she would have let Pakistan on its own devices and let it separate on its own terms without India's hand in it. Then India would have no blame whatsoever, even if there were people killed in this separation process. But the way it happened with India as the major backer and puppet master from behind, I see blood of 1971 in India's hand, just as there was blood in the hands of all direct actors and players within Pakistan.



dude...with millions of refugees on our soil, there was no way we would have ignored the situation. If bhutto wanted to play political poker, he must have ensured that there was no spillover into our borders. With kind of economic drain, not acting would never have been an option. Even with a rising economy India would never agree to bear such collateral damage. In those days, when we were eating hand to mouth, things were even worse. Being practical is very important in deciding policy.


----------



## kalu_miah

Guynextdoor2 said:


> Ehhhh...on one hand my interpretation of the 'mistake' comment you made is that you would have preferred a united bengal (E+W)- I'm not clear how the conspiracy had any kind of relationship to that political dream. In any case creation of a united bengal was one of many historic possibilities- not the only one, and each of these is a rare histoic event in itself. You can't really feel too bad that your preferred option didn't work out- that's like living in regret coz you weren't born to bill gates and inherit a fortune. On the other hand an equally rare historic event- independent land of bangladesh did happen, so maybe you're just as well off. In any case INDIAN bengalis don;t have any regrets about not being a part of your proposed union so the whole issue is pointless anyway.



I went back and reread my old posts. I think you found the United Bengal bit in OP:



> What I can see is that Suhrawardy was a person of integrity and foresight, and he was from a distinguished family. *He tried the idea of United Bengal, as it was worth a try, but after partition, he dropped that idea, as anyone with a minimum knowledge of geopolitics would know that East Pakistan by itself would be a much more vulnerable entity with India on 3 sides.* *But if young Mujib was one of his goondas (I don't know for sure) then this could have given him the dream that one day he might be able to make East Pakistan secede from West Pakistan and rule over it as a benevolent king/dictator/dear-leader/bongo-bandhu?*



Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/bangla...what-does-mean-our-history.html#ixzz2Lnwxcd45

This was an idea with some people before partition and it failed to materialize and all people involved dropped it after partition. What I am claiming is that Mujib may have borrowed from this idea and dreamt of an independent East Bengal after partition. It is just a wild guess on my part.

Please read the OP carefully, this United Bengal thingy was never any part of my idea or dream, I was quoting history as that bit is from history and making an educated guess about Mujib's state of mind. You obviously misread the OP and the other posts. I would welcome you to read them again more carefully and understand their meaning, before jumping to conclusions like "I have regrets about not having an United Bengal".

And I am perfectly comfortable with Bangladesh, no regrets, it is our country and we will make the best of what we have.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## kalu_miah

Guynextdoor2 said:


> dude...with millions of refugees on our soil, there was no way we would have ignored the situation. If bhutto wanted to play political poker, he must have ensured that there was no spillover into our borders. With kind of economic drain, not acting would never have been an option. Even with a rising economy India would never agree to bear such collateral damage. In those days, when we were eating hand to mouth, things were even worse. Being practical is very important in deciding policy.



In reply, I would welcome you to come to a different thread, the story goes back much earlier than what happened in 1971:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...bureau-ib-r-aw-east-pakistan-1963-1971-a.html

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## kalu_miah

Guynextdoor2 said:


> India's role is peripheral. The day Bhutto decided not to hand over power to Mujib, separation became completely justified. YOU CANNOT NOT HAND OVER POWER after losing an election- period.India can't play a role in a big event like that. All that we could do was that once the fire began, we stepped in to protect our intersts. The big stuff was always done by other players.



I would argue that India's role was and is central, not peripheral. The explanation is here:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...bureau-ib-r-aw-east-pakistan-1963-1971-a.html


----------



## Md Akmal

Loki said:


> Well, the Agartala Conspiracy indeed really did happen. There is no question about that.
> 
> The question is, _*why was Mujib along with his compatriots set free? Strange as it may seem. *_
> 
> 
> I guess Hasina has now shut her big mouth regarding the issue. Honestly, I respect Mujib for speaking out for the rights of Bengalis. But the man really went overkill. And a delusional one at that. We still see that today.
> 
> Some powerful folks simply refuse to take responsibility for history.



@ It was Bhutto who unified all the West Pakistani politicians as well some serving Generals to pressurise President Ayub to release Mujib and withdraw all related cases. So, *" Bhutto ne ek tir se do shikar kia "*. Once the Agartola case was going on , He even came to Dhaka with his Lawyer Team to support Mujib as a defending Officer. All these things were being pressurized through General Gul Hassan, a close friend of Bhutto.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Moander

kalu_miah said:


> First of all, some disclaimer. I am a loyal citizen of Bangladesh (as well as the US), but I believe we need to find facts about our own history. So these are part of my efforts to uncover some uncomfortable facts and ask some hard questions. Please do not take these efforts to mean that I am pro or anti independence of Bangladesh, I am neither and I accept it as a fait accompli, a done deal that cannot be reversed. Like the majority of Bangladeshi's living today, I had no role in that conflict in 1971. As far as I know my parents did not play any role either.
> 
> *Agartala Conspiracy confession, what does it mean for our history.*
> 
> Relevant PDF threads for reference:
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/current-events-social-issues/156104-isi-nabbed-traitors.html
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/curren...tala-memogate-another-conspiracy-reality.html
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-history-strategy/50095-truth-1971-sheikh-haseena-wajid.html
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/bangladesh-defence/124950-raw-says-mujib-not-their-agent.html
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/bangladesh-defence/19050-book-review-india-doctrine-1947-2007-a-14.html
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-history-strategy/1870-creation-bangladesh-14.html#post92614
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/bangla...971-war-pakistan-vs-india-untold-story-2.html
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/bangladesh-defence/31528-bangladesh-balochistan-3.html
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...eague-not-allowed-form-government-1971-a.html
> 
> I have been looking at life history of both Suhrawardy and Mujib to see where the seed of rebellion came from. The idea of United Bengal came from Suhrawardy:
> Huseyn Shaheed Suhrawardy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> After partition however Suhrawardy gave up on this idea since it was rejected by people. He had been a loyal son of the country and had great accomplishment as a leader:
> - solidified Pak-China and Pak-US ties
> - moved towards free-market capitalism away from communism although he had a soft corner for socialism
> - initiated plan for nuclear power generation as well as weapons in the future
> 
> But he had another side:
> 
> 
> 
> The above shows Suhrawardy's human side, he was no saint. But what piqued my interest about the above is this question: * is it possible that Mujib was one of these goondas?*
> 
> What I can see is that Suhrawardy was a person of integrity and foresight, and he was from a distinguished family. He tried the idea of United Bengal, as it was worth a try, but after partition, he dropped that idea, as anyone with a minimum knowledge of geopolitics would know that East Pakistan by itself would be a much more vulnerable entity with India on 3 sides. But *if young Mujib was one of his goondas (I don't know for sure) then this could have given him the dream that one day he might be able to make East Pakistan secede from West Pakistan and rule over it as a benevolent king/dictator/dear-leader/bongo-bandhu?*
> 
> Because what I see from Mujib's life history is that this person is the root of the seed of rebellion. This rebellion was made without considering the long term future of his people, who had taken this obsolete idea (United Independent Bengal) from Suhrawardy and turned it into his modified dream of truncated independent kingdom of East Bengal and proceeded to ally with an enemy state and people (Hindu's) to engineer a secession to make his dream come true:
> Sheikh Mujibur Rahman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Swadhin Bangal Biplobi Parishad - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> Again I see that demagogues and rabble rousers become leaders with little idea of geopolitics and lead nations and people to a direction with disastrous consequences for the people they lead, blind leading the blind. If Mujib was really knowledgeable about geopolitics, instead of working with Indian intelligence, he would work with ISI and Chinese intelligence to help Phizo and Laldenga to gain independence for North East states. Current Awami League rule is nothing but a continuation of this long tradition that started with Mujib:
> 
> - cooperation with India to control Bangladesh
> - serve Indian national interest while ruling Bangladesh
> 
> Coming to the Agartala Conspiracy case:
> Agartala Conspiracy Case - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Forum
> 
> 
> People of then East Pakistan thought this was a case to frame popular leader Mujib to taint his reputation. But that impression was a lie, as we can see that Indian intelligence influenced media have established this myth, while in reality the opposite was true, as was admitted by Shawkat Ali:
> Col. Shawkat Ali - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> Funny thing is these shameless idiots are now trying to establish a treason case as some kind of heroic act. My question is why admit it in 2010 (or is it 2011), why not in 1968, when it mattered? Or why not in 1972? Why the silence for 40 long years?
> 
> 35 'accused' honoured
> 
> 
> Textbook%20'incorrectly'%20describes%20Agartala%20Case:%20Shawkat]Textbook 'incorrectly' describes Agartala Case: Shawkat
> 
> 
> Note the attempt to establish a treason case as a "patriotic" case and include it in textbooks for 9th and 10th grade to brainwash new generation of Bangladeshi's.
> 
> What the above does not tell you is that 6 point "autonomy" movement was the deceptive facade that RAW/IB has designed together with these traitors so they could proceed with their plan for secession. They got caught red-handed by ISI only after some of them raided some armory against advice given by Indian intelligence (IB/RAW):
> RAW says Mujib was not their agent :: Weekly Blitz
> 
> Of course Mujib never "worked" and got paid from Indian intelligence. His vision was that he was king of East Bengal, who was getting India's help to liberate his land. *But note the lie in green by Sankaran Nair, as Shawkat Ali has already confessed about the truth of the Agartala case.*
> 
> Questions:
> 
> 1. Sure there was economic deprivation, but were the West Pakistani's killing us since 1950's?
> 2. Who gave the right to Mujib to make this decision on behalf of East Pakistan to secede?
> 2. Who started the killing, were it not the planned saboteurs of Indian trained Awami agents who started the killings of Biharis months before Operation Searchlight?
> 3. Who gave the right to Mujib to seek help and become the partner of our 800 year old enemy entity, Hindu's of South Asia?
> 4. Is it not possible that instead of seeking help from an enemy that hates us Muslims to the core, that we could confront and raise this issue with our "oppressor" the West Pakistani's who were fellow Muslims after all?
> 5. If some of our "leaders" did not conspire with our enemy and committed treason (partner with an enemy state to plan for secession) and if we tried to solve these issues honestly, frankly and in a straight forward way, do we think we would still be treated the way we were treated (operation searchlight)?
> 
> If we could peacefully resolve the differences between the two wings of Pakistan and achieve autonomy or amicable separation, then:
> 
> 1. hundreds of thousands of people (Hindu's, Bengali Muslims, non-Bengali Muslims) would not be killed and become victims of rape and other atrocities
> 2. we could still have a better relationship between the 2nd and 3rd largest Muslim countries of the world
> 3. India would not gloat of their victory against West Pakistan and gifting us our "independence"
> 4. both parts would not become weaker, as both could share the nuclear power
> 5. India would not dare to proceed with its water terrorism, border violence and Shanti Bahini insurgency against Bangladesh
> 6. last but not least North East today may have become partly independent if not completely
> 
> Now can we say that India found a "useful idiot" who had a bunch of other idiot followers to achieve India's goal to break Pakistan, the largest Muslim country in the world, and thus reduce strategic threats for Indian nation? In the process, hundreds of thousands of people got killed in the civil war and a great rift was created among two of the largest Muslim communities of the world.
> 
> Now can we say that Awami League should never be trusted again by people of Bangladesh and it should be banned and abolished, so the joint team of Awami League and Indian intelligence cannot hurt the national interest of Bangladesh any further?



You are a loyal citizen of Bangladesh!


----------



## Dillinger

kalu_miah said:


> First of all, some disclaimer. I am a loyal citizen of Bangladesh (as well as the US), but I believe we need to find facts about our own history. So these are part of my efforts to uncover some uncomfortable facts and ask some hard questions. Please do not take these efforts to mean that I am pro or anti independence of Bangladesh, I am neither and I accept it as a fait accompli, a done deal that cannot be reversed. Like the majority of Bangladeshi's living today, I had no role in that conflict in 1971. As far as I know my parents did not play any role either.
> 
> *Agartala Conspiracy confession, what does it mean for our history.*
> 
> Relevant PDF threads for reference:
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/current-events-social-issues/156104-isi-nabbed-traitors.html
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/curren...tala-memogate-another-conspiracy-reality.html
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-history-strategy/50095-truth-1971-sheikh-haseena-wajid.html
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/bangladesh-defence/124950-raw-says-mujib-not-their-agent.html
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/bangladesh-defence/19050-book-review-india-doctrine-1947-2007-a-14.html
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-history-strategy/1870-creation-bangladesh-14.html#post92614
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/bangla...971-war-pakistan-vs-india-untold-story-2.html
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/bangladesh-defence/31528-bangladesh-balochistan-3.html
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...eague-not-allowed-form-government-1971-a.html
> 
> I have been looking at life history of both Suhrawardy and Mujib to see where the seed of rebellion came from. The idea of United Bengal came from Suhrawardy:
> Huseyn Shaheed Suhrawardy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> After partition however Suhrawardy gave up on this idea since it was rejected by people. He had been a loyal son of the country and had great accomplishment as a leader:
> - solidified Pak-China and Pak-US ties
> - moved towards free-market capitalism away from communism although he had a soft corner for socialism
> - initiated plan for nuclear power generation as well as weapons in the future
> 
> But he had another side:
> 
> 
> 
> The above shows Suhrawardy's human side, he was no saint. But what piqued my interest about the above is this question: * is it possible that Mujib was one of these goondas?*
> 
> What I can see is that Suhrawardy was a person of integrity and foresight, and he was from a distinguished family. He tried the idea of United Bengal, as it was worth a try, but after partition, he dropped that idea, as anyone with a minimum knowledge of geopolitics would know that East Pakistan by itself would be a much more vulnerable entity with India on 3 sides. But *if young Mujib was one of his goondas (I don't know for sure) then this could have given him the dream that one day he might be able to make East Pakistan secede from West Pakistan and rule over it as a benevolent king/dictator/dear-leader/bongo-bandhu?*
> 
> Because what I see from Mujib's life history is that this person is the root of the seed of rebellion. This rebellion was made without considering the long term future of his people, who had taken this obsolete idea (United Independent Bengal) from Suhrawardy and turned it into his modified dream of truncated independent kingdom of East Bengal and proceeded to ally with an enemy state and people (Hindu's) to engineer a secession to make his dream come true:
> Sheikh Mujibur Rahman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Swadhin Bangal Biplobi Parishad - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> Again I see that demagogues and rabble rousers become leaders with little idea of geopolitics and lead nations and people to a direction with disastrous consequences for the people they lead, blind leading the blind. If Mujib was really knowledgeable about geopolitics, instead of working with Indian intelligence, he would work with ISI and Chinese intelligence to help Phizo and Laldenga to gain independence for North East states. Current Awami League rule is nothing but a continuation of this long tradition that started with Mujib:
> 
> - cooperation with India to control Bangladesh
> - serve Indian national interest while ruling Bangladesh
> 
> Coming to the Agartala Conspiracy case:
> Agartala Conspiracy Case - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Forum
> 
> 
> People of then East Pakistan thought this was a case to frame popular leader Mujib to taint his reputation. But that impression was a lie, as we can see that Indian intelligence influenced media have established this myth, while in reality the opposite was true, as was admitted by Shawkat Ali:
> Col. Shawkat Ali - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> Funny thing is these shameless idiots are now trying to establish a treason case as some kind of heroic act. My question is why admit it in 2010 (or is it 2011), why not in 1968, when it mattered? Or why not in 1972? Why the silence for 40 long years?
> 
> 35 'accused' honoured
> 
> 
> Textbook%20'incorrectly'%20describes%20Agartala%20Case:%20Shawkat]Textbook 'incorrectly' describes Agartala Case: Shawkat
> 
> 
> Note the attempt to establish a treason case as a "patriotic" case and include it in textbooks for 9th and 10th grade to brainwash new generation of Bangladeshi's.
> 
> What the above does not tell you is that 6 point "autonomy" movement was the deceptive facade that RAW/IB has designed together with these traitors so they could proceed with their plan for secession. They got caught red-handed by ISI only after some of them raided some armory against advice given by Indian intelligence (IB/RAW):
> RAW says Mujib was not their agent :: Weekly Blitz
> 
> Of course Mujib never "worked" and got paid from Indian intelligence. His vision was that he was king of East Bengal, who was getting India's help to liberate his land. *But note the lie in green by Sankaran Nair, as Shawkat Ali has already confessed about the truth of the Agartala case.*
> 
> Questions:
> 
> 1. Sure there was economic deprivation, but were the West Pakistani's killing us since 1950's?
> 2. Who gave the right to Mujib to make this decision on behalf of East Pakistan to secede?
> 2. Who started the killing, were it not the planned saboteurs of Indian trained Awami agents who started the killings of Biharis months before Operation Searchlight?
> 3. Who gave the right to Mujib to seek help and become the partner of our 800 year old enemy entity, Hindu's of South Asia?
> 4. Is it not possible that instead of seeking help from an enemy that hates us Muslims to the core, that we could confront and raise this issue with our "oppressor" the West Pakistani's who were fellow Muslims after all?
> 5. If some of our "leaders" did not conspire with our enemy and committed treason (partner with an enemy state to plan for secession) and if we tried to solve these issues honestly, frankly and in a straight forward way, do we think we would still be treated the way we were treated (operation searchlight)?
> 
> If we could peacefully resolve the differences between the two wings of Pakistan and achieve autonomy or amicable separation, then:
> 
> 1. hundreds of thousands of people (Hindu's, Bengali Muslims, non-Bengali Muslims) would not be killed and become victims of rape and other atrocities
> 2. we could still have a better relationship between the 2nd and 3rd largest Muslim countries of the world
> 3. India would not gloat of their victory against West Pakistan and gifting us our "independence"
> 4. both parts would not become weaker, as both could share the nuclear power
> 5. India would not dare to proceed with its water terrorism, border violence and Shanti Bahini insurgency against Bangladesh
> 6. last but not least North East today may have become partly independent if not completely
> 
> Now can we say that India found a "useful idiot" who had a bunch of other idiot followers to achieve India's goal to break Pakistan, the largest Muslim country in the world, and thus reduce strategic threats for Indian nation? In the process, hundreds of thousands of people got killed in the civil war and a great rift was created among two of the largest Muslim communities of the world.
> 
> Now can we say that Awami League should never be trusted again by people of Bangladesh and it should be banned and abolished, so the joint team of Awami League and Indian intelligence cannot hurt the national interest of Bangladesh any further?



*So in your opinion this whole incident and a majority of the sub-continent's history post 1947 is dictated largely by Hindu enmity towards Muslims.* If you're going to view everything from such a narrow and myopic viewpoint then how will you work upon a way forward. The notion of Muslim unity being all well and good- in your view it seems to be some sort of a panacea. *The dynamics that drive nation states are to be reduced to brutish religiously driven initiatives rather than calculated moves aimed at self benefit.* You are attacking the basis of Bangladesh's sovereignty. You claim that you see the 1971 event as a fait accompli rather than viewing it as the proud moment a nation came into its own. *You claim that you are neither pro nor anti Bangladeshi independence and then go and defecate all over this supposed neutrality by stressing upon how present day Bangladesh does not have sufficient strength to fight the "Hindu enemies", how Bangladesh is the result of the machinations of the same implacable foes, collective strength would bring prosperity. These are laughable notions. Perhaps you desire for your nation to live on IMF handouts, be at the beck and call of every nation which has dug its hooks into your national flesh- from America, to China to Saudi Arabia. * Indians are delusional and evil- or so you say- but I would rather ask, *is it so difficult for 180 million people to take pride in the nation that is theirs and their sovereignty?** If the enemy is perpetually at your gates then fight! But you would rather dole out every single conspiracy theory,fantasy stratagem and every invective aimed at India and the "Hindu enemy"- **but fight- that seems to be impossible for the Bangladeshi populace. **If the Awami league is traitorous then throw them out- but you will no- alas they are supported by the mighty RAW. If troubles spawn within the nation then resolve them- but you will not- alas the mighty RAW initiated and fuels them. * *It is this same pusillanimous attitude that plagues you- not RAW or Mossad or some conspiracy. * 

* If managing your nation is so bothersome then by all means try and surrender it to a third power- subject obviously to the mighty RAW's permission. If a free nation is not to your liking then by all means try and undo India's smashing victory in 71- subject obviously to the mighty RAW's permission. * *Most importantly the foolish fantasy of trying to separate the north eastern states of India from their nation- if that is where greater power lies then try it- subject obviously to whether Bangladesh will ever be able counter RAW covertly in such matters or even survive as a nation if it engages in the venture overtly. *

*Instead of bitterly visiting and revisiting the much lamentable "fait accompli" lets see you generate some succinct and solid solutions meant to deal with this "Hindu malaise"**- MORE IMPORTANTLY LETS SEE THEIR ACTIVE APPLICATION, SHALL WE? *


----------



## Md Akmal

kalu_miah said:


> I went back and reread my old posts. I think you found the United Bengal bit in OP:
> 
> 
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/bangla...what-does-mean-our-history.html#ixzz2Lnwxcd45
> 
> This was an idea with some people before partition and it failed to materialize and all people involved dropped it after partition. What I am claiming is that Mujib may have borrowed from this idea and dreamt of an independent East Bengal after partition. It is just a wild guess on my part.
> 
> Please read the OP carefully, this United Bengal thingy was never any part of my idea or dream, I was quoting history as that bit is from history and making an educated guess about Mujib's state of mind. You obviously misread the OP and the other posts. I would welcome you to read them again more carefully and understand their meaning, before jumping to conclusions like "I have regrets about not having an United Bengal".
> 
> And I am perfectly comfortable with Bangladesh, no regrets, it is our country and we will make the best of what we have.



@ Hi Kalu-miah, the books I have read which gives me the idea that the idea of so called "United Bengal" of Suhrawardy was not a complete independent. Infact, it was a Socialist Republic of Bengal under a greater Dominion of India.

@ His idea was bitterly criticised by Congress. Initially Muslim Leaque gave him a go ahead chit once Jinnah realise that it was not a complete independent country so they also rejected the idea. Since then there was always a two groups within Bengal Muslim Leaque. One group led by Suhrawardy and Abul Hashem another group led by Khaja Nazimuddin. Soon there was an parliamenty election within Bengal Muslim Leaque where Khaja Nazimmuddin was elected as the future Chief Minister of incoming East Pakistan. This Suhrawardy group was defeated miserably and remained in India even after independence of Pakistan. He came to Pakistan once Jinnah died. Abul Hossain came to East Pakistan I think in 1950 once his house was burned in Calcutta. When Sk Mujib came to East Pakistan I have no idea but once Jinnah visited in 1948 at Dhaka Mujib was there.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Skies

Moander said:


> You are a loyal citizen of Bangladesh!



The matter is whether he is right or wrong, not loyal or disloyal.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## kalu_miah

Dillinger said:


> *So in your opinion this whole incident and a majority of the sub-continent's history post 1947 is dictated largely by Hindu enmity towards Muslims.* If you're going to view everything from such a narrow and myopic viewpoint then how will you work upon a way forward. The notion of Muslim unity being all well and good- in your view it seems to be some sort of a panacea. *The dynamics that drive nation states are to be reduced to brutish religiously driven initiatives rather than calculated moves aimed at self benefit.* You are attacking the basis of Bangladesh's sovereignty. You claim that you see the 1971 event as a fait accompli rather than viewing it as the proud moment a nation came into its own. *You claim that you are neither pro nor anti Bangladeshi independence and then go and defecate all over this supposed neutrality by stressing upon how present day Bangladesh does not have sufficient strength to fight the "Hindu enemies", how Bangladesh is the result of the machinations of the same implacable foes, collective strength would bring prosperity. These are laughable notions. Perhaps you desire for your nation to live on IMF handouts, be at the beck and call of every nation which has dug its hooks into your national flesh- from America, to China to Saudi Arabia. * Indians are delusional and evil- or so you say- but I would rather ask, *is it so difficult for 180 million people to take pride in the nation that is theirs and their sovereignty?** If the enemy is perpetually at your gates then fight! But you would rather dole out every single conspiracy theory,fantasy stratagem and every invective aimed at India and the "Hindu enemy"- **but fight- that seems to be impossible for the Bangladeshi populace. **If the Awami league is traitorous then throw them out- but you will no- alas they are supported by the mighty RAW. If troubles spawn within the nation then resolve them- but you will not- alas the mighty RAW initiated and fuels them. * *It is this same pusillanimous attitude that plagues you- not RAW or Mossad or some conspiracy. *
> 
> * If managing your nation is so bothersome then by all means try and surrender it to a third power- subject obviously to the mighty RAW's permission. If a free nation is not to your liking then by all means try and undo India's smashing victory in 71- subject obviously to the mighty RAW's permission. * *Most importantly the foolish fantasy of trying to separate the north eastern states of India from their nation- if that is where greater power lies then try it- subject obviously to whether Bangladesh will ever be able counter RAW covertly in such matters or even survive as a nation if it engages in the venture overtly. *
> 
> *Instead of bitterly visiting and revisiting the much lamentable "fait accompli" lets see you generate some succinct and solid solutions meant to deal with this "Hindu malaise"**- MORE IMPORTANTLY LETS SEE THEIR ACTIVE APPLICATION, SHALL WE? *



Wow, such uncouth and threatening words, kudos to you my Indian friend. I should say these words above are embodiment of India and would be sufficient proof of what I have been trying to make my silly and naive countrymen understand about the true nature of India.

In answer to your question, I hope and plan for a new set of friends/partners/masters for Bangladesh and hope to convince my countrymen that this is the preferred and only route available to us to forever end Indian meddling in Bangladesh. These new friends/partners/masters would be Japan and Korea, under an ASEAN+ arrangement:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/180755-geopolitics-asean-region.html
http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/164048-kalu_miahs-new-world-order-road-map-future.html


----------



## the just

jbond197 said:


> Razakars version of the events.. Ask any real Bangladeshi about what happened in 1971 rather than a Jamati/*******..



Whenever 1971 comes up with actual facts about India ,Indians cry wolf.millions of people in our country dose not support India's involvement in our national matter.including some well known muktijodha.are you calling our national heroes *******? How dare you?

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## the just

Guynextdoor2 said:


> dude...with millions of refugees on our soil, there was no way we would have ignored the situation. If bhutto wanted to play political poker, he must have ensured that there was no spillover into our borders. With kind of economic drain, not acting would never have been an option. Even with a rising economy India would never agree to bear such collateral damage. In those days, when we were eating hand to mouth, things were even worse. Being practical is very important in deciding policy.



Just the other day one of your countryman stated that Mia Mar is now infested by Bangladeshi refugees. Not the opposite.are you sure it was us in71? Or were you counting yourselves?


----------



## kalu_miah

Moander said:


> You are a loyal citizen of Bangladesh!



Bangladesh, its land mass and people did not come out of vacuum in 1971 and magically created by Awami League and Sheikh Mujib. We the people in this land long existed before Bangladesh, Pakistan and India took shape and will exist long after these entities are gone. My loyalty is with the people of this land, not with any brand of make believe nationalism. If we have to choose an ism, I would choose regionalism rather than nationalism, as it will serve the long term interest of our people.

I have already done some real service to this nation, by founding a 100% export oriented manufacturing industry that employ several thousand people today and produce export earnings for this nation every working day. Insha-Allah, I will do more in the future.

In this thread, I have attempted to put to rest some myths and uncover some history. My effort may not be perfect. I support a full investigation of these events with collection of classified intelligence files of India, Pakistan and Bangladesh, so we can set history straight, and full investigation of the events of 1971 and collect evidence of eye witness from all sides under a UN sponsored and directed effort.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Dillinger

kalu_miah said:


> Wow, such uncouth and threatening words, kudos to you my Indian friend. I should say these words above are embodiment of India and would be sufficient proof of what I have been trying to make my silly and naive countrymen understand about the true nature of India.
> 
> In answer to your question, I hope and plan for a new set of friends/partners/masters for Bangladesh and hope to convince my countrymen that this is the preferred and only route available to us to forever end Indian meddling in Bangladesh. These new friends/partners/masters would be Japan and Korea, under an ASEAN+ arrangement:
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/180755-geopolitics-asean-region.html
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/164048-kalu_miahs-new-world-order-road-map-future.html



*How are my words even remotely threatening?* *Let us be clear, I do not- absolutely do not endorse this idiocy about Indian parties, organisations, RAW, or the GOI controlling matters in Bangladesh!* *Which part of my post came out as threatening to you. Quote those relevant bits! Wait, was it the last bit where I stated that any attempt to destabilize India's north east would lead to lethal and permanent consequences for your nation?* *I have mentioned the RAW and its "interference" and supposed "mastery" in Bangladesh because POSTERS LIKE YOU INSIST THAT IT CONTROLS YOUR COUNTRY- NOT BECAUSE IT IS FACTUALLY CORRECT!* Every other Indian only views such opinions as lunacy and at most will laugh at the expense of the poster espousing them. The post is meant to simply highlight the pusillanimous attitude that plagues certain people from your nation and various attempts by them to undermine its pride and sovereignty. By all means, no one has prevented Bangladesh from joining the ASEAN or any other such grouping- that is not for us (Indians) to decide or even seriously comment upon. If anything though it would be a welcome move- bringing greater prosperity to the region. One needs only to look at the close integration that India is in the process of executing with ASEAN and the benefits that shall be reaped from it.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## the just

After reading tri- nation mud slinging.one have to agree the British raj ....ed up us pretty good.we all have tendency to butt in where we are not welcome.not a single time I saw we agree on something all together. Indo- pak agree bd disagree. Bd- pak agree indo disagree.bd- info agrees pak disagree.what's up with us man?

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## notsuperstitious

Let me sum this up, wily evil hindus, peaceful innocent noble muslims. This is how some members see everything.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## anilindia

True bangladeshi..


----------



## the just

After reading tri- nation mud slinging.one have to agree the British raj ....ed up us pretty good.we all have tendency to butt in where we are not welcome.not a single time I saw we agree on something all together. Indo- pak agree bd disagree. Bd- pak agree indo disagree.bd- info agrees pak disagree.what's up with us man?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## the just

anilindia said:


> True bangladeshi..



Every coin has 2 sides.why our ( bd- indo- pak) political leaders do what they do gets out of their own hand and plan.we the people get sandwitched between their treacherous dids.what started as a beautiful dream is now turning into our worst nightmare.about info involvement. If the shoe fits......



fateh71 said:


> Let me sum this up, wily evil hindus, peaceful innocent noble muslims. This is how some members see everything.



Just a quick info.politically and geo- Cally a person born in Hindustan( be that Muslim,cristian s,Sikh,Jews) is by definition Hindustani or Hindu in short.


----------



## the just

animelive said:


> Don't be so disrespectful towards your own country, you clearly have a sense of inferiority and insecurity but that offends me highly. No one is living in a hellhole, YOU are your country so if you cannot make it better, better not whine about the stuff taking place.



Friends,countrymen,romans thukku deshi bhai lend me your ears.don't take offence.but he is right.going abroad for better life is understandable. But kicking own............ On the process is highly unethical.


----------



## jaibi

History is much more powerful entity than we give it credit for. The events that lead up to the 1971 have a long past with seeds sowed in the Cold War dynamics and our local rivilary. To blame Mujib, Yahya Khan or even one party and not the other is unfair. Everyone shares the blame. Yes, India manipulated the situation; yes, Mujib got impatient; yes, Bhutto got unrelenting; yes, the West Pakistani upper crest suppressed the Bengali culture (they still oppress other cultures even/especially Punjabis). So why are we fighting? Pakistan and Bangladesh can still be good allies and develop togther and if need be even act as counters to Indian strenght but the path to that is in future planning and vision not revisiting history.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## the just

jaibi said:


> History is much more powerful entity than we give it credit for. The events that lead up to the 1971 have a long past with seeds sowed in the Cold War dynamics and our local rivilary. To blame Mujib, Yahya Khan or even one party and not the other is unfair. Everyone shares the blame. Yes, India manipulated the situation; yes, Mujib got impatient; yes, Bhutto got unrelenting; yes, the West Pakistani upper crest suppressed the Bengali culture (they still oppress other cultures even/especially Punjabis). So why are we fighting? Pakistan and Bangladesh can still be good allies and develop togther and if need be even act as counters to Indian strenght but the path to that is in future planning and vision not revisiting history.


I thank you sir for your input.yes we can be good friends and allies as soon your country men and gov: apologize for the crimes of71 and post70.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## ShadowFaux

The Agartala incident is a conspiracy from the west Pakistani point of view. Years of oppression led to that incident. But it was necessary for us which was later proved by west pakistani authority when they denied to handover the power.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Moander

kalu_miah said:


> Bangladesh, its land mass and people did not come out of vacuum in 1971 and magically created by Awami League and Sheikh Mujib. We the people in this land long existed before Bangladesh, Pakistan and India took shape and will exist long after these entities are gone. My loyalty is with the people of this land, not with any brand of make believe nationalism. If we have to choose an ism, I would choose regionalism rather than nationalism, as it will serve the long term interest of our people.
> 
> I have already done some real service to this nation, by founding a 100% export oriented manufacturing industry that employ several thousand people today and produce export earnings for this nation every working day. Insha-Allah, I will do more in the future.
> 
> In this thread, I have attempted to put to rest some myths and uncover some history. My effort may not be perfect. I support a full investigation of these events with collection of classified intelligence files of India, Pakistan and Bangladesh, so we can set history straight, and full investigation of the events of 1971 and collect evidence of eye witness from all sides under a UN sponsored and directed effort.



Than please tell me who are your people? It seems you are justifying the actions taken by Pakistani Army against our people in 1971.


----------



## anilindia

All those who support jamaat and opposing agartala consipiracy for independence should go through this article abour mass scale rape..

1971 Rapes: Bangladesh Cannot Hide History - Forbes

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## jaibi

the just said:


> I thank you sir for your input.yes we can be good friends and allies as soon your country men and gov: apologize for the crimes of71 and post70.



I really do not see what improvement that would do, sir. Are words really that important to you? From what interaction I've had with your countrymen a lot of them have the same opinion that it's history; the present generation has largely forgotten 71. If you wish to hold to it, sir then do, it is up to you. I do not think that an official apology would come your way soon. If it does, good. If you want to keep it as a condition for cooperation then let us see how it turns out. 

Regards.


----------



## SABRE

jaibi said:


> I really do not see what improvement that would do, sir. Are words really that important to you? From what interaction I've had with your countrymen a lot of them have the same opinion that it's history; the present generation has largely forgotten 71. If you wish to hold to it, sir then do, it is up to you. I do not think that an official apology would come your way soon. If it does, good. If you want to keep it as a condition for cooperation then let us see how it turns out.
> Regards.



Although it would threaten to get things off topic but I am quite tempted to reply here.

My single penny says that even if we apologise nothing would come out of it. Anti-Pakistanism is what AL thrives on, its their polity. As long as they keep coming to power they'll keep coming up with some anti-Pakistani reason & prevent at all cost any attempt to forge strong friendly & brotherly BD-Pakistan relations. BNP's polity however appears to be exact opposite. What is surprising is that Mujib did not appear as hostile to Pakistan post BD separation as Hasina does. But what do you expect of a popular leader & a popular puppet? 

On the other hand, I don't know if our BD brothers know or not, there is a speech by ZA Bhutto post BD separation saying (paraphrasing) that they (Bangalis) are our brothers and we must accept their independence. Those who don't agree are children of pigs & can go to hell. Subsequently the first elected parliament accepted BD as a separate country in a constitutional amendment. Every state is an egoistic entity & for Pakistan this measure was a huge one that put darts right at the heart of its ego. *It was a tacit apology*. Asking for anything more is really pushing it.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Jackdaws

Our histories are tinged with prejudice. Pakistanis see it as a civil war where India meddled where it did not need to; India sees itself as a knight in shining armor which rescued and liberated Bangladesh singlehandedly; Bangladesh sees it as a War of Independence where India provided assistance to the freedom fighters. After having read quite a bit on it, I can say that Pakistan-Bangladesh were split the day the Bengalis were denied what they had fairly and squarely won - the reins of power in the Pakistani Parliament. If your short sighted Bhutto and Yahya had accepted the verdict of the people - forget India - even the USA or USSR could not have split you. 

There is no shame in apologizing - I wonder why countries refuse to apologize. The Japs to the Chinese; the Pakistanis to the Banglas; the Brits to the Indians for Amritsar - everyone including the perpetrator knows that an apology is needed. Why shy away?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## neutral_person

kalu_miah said:


> *I have no issue with this separation and having an independent Bangladesh, the issue I have is the way it was done, with India engineering it from behind the scenes, creating a civil war where a whole bunch of our people were killed. *If India had a wiser leader, unlike Indira, he/she would have let Pakistan on its own devices and let it separate on its own terms without India's hand in it. Then India would have no blame whatsoever, even if there were people killed in this separation process. But the way it happened with India as the major backer and puppet master from behind, *I see blood of 1971 in India's hand*, just as there was blood in the hands of all direct actors and players within Pakistan.



Countries supporting parties that have a favourable view of ourselves is a pretty common thing. Yes we provided training and arms to the Mukti Bahini, but that is no different than BD supporting NE insurgents, or Pak supporting Kashmiri (and before that Kkalistani) insurgents in India.

Bottom line is, India played a hand in 1971 in BD/Awami League's favour, but so did USA in the Pakistanis favour (shall we forget the 7th fleet incident in the Bay of Bengal?), and Russians in the BD favour. Obviously India being geographically closer played a bigger hand than other countries. But saying things like I see blood in "India's hands", when India probably had the least amount of blood out of anyone in that war, be it Pakistani soldiers that killed Bengalis or Mukti Bahani people that killed Jamaatis and Pakistanis is simply absurd and a very biased viewpoint. 

So yes you are entitled to your views, even when they are completely wrong and devoid of any logic.


----------



## kalu_miah

Dillinger said:


> *So in your opinion this whole incident and a majority of the sub-continent's history post 1947 is dictated largely by Hindu enmity towards Muslims.* If you're going to view everything from such a narrow and myopic viewpoint then how will you work upon a way forward. The notion of Muslim unity being all well and good- in your view it seems to be some sort of a panacea.



These are your words and impressions and a very subjective opinion about my view point.



Dillinger said:


> *The dynamics that drive nation states are to be reduced to brutish religiously driven initiatives rather than calculated moves aimed at self benefit.*



Again you are expressing subjective opinions without having any knowledge about my stands on these issues.



Dillinger said:


> You are attacking the basis of Bangladesh's sovereignty. You claim that you see the 1971 event as a fait accompli rather than viewing it as the proud moment a nation came into its own. *You claim that you are neither pro nor anti Bangladeshi independence and then go and defecate all over this supposed neutrality by stressing upon how present day Bangladesh does not have sufficient strength to fight the "Hindu enemies", how Bangladesh is the result of the machinations of the same implacable foes, collective strength would bring prosperity. These are laughable notions.*



Expressing opinion about a true conspiracy that was denied as false is not attacking Bangladesh sovereignty. Smaller countries cannot fight bigger countries. In fact I am of opinion that 1947 Partition was a mistake. My stand is similar to those of Abul Kalam Azad and Badshah Khan who opposed partition. 1971 was an inevitable by product of the 1947 partition.



Dillinger said:


> Perhaps you desire for your nation to live on IMF handouts, be at the beck and call of every nation which has dug its hooks into your national flesh- from America, to China to Saudi Arabia. [/B] Indians are delusional and evil- or so you say- but I would rather ask, *is it so difficult for 180 million people to take pride in the nation that is theirs and their sovereignty?** If the enemy is perpetually at your gates then fight!*



We will fight, once we get our house in order (read get rid of foreign agents) and find and establish alliance with other friendly nations. And fyi our population is around 160 million, not 180.



Dillinger said:


> But you would rather dole out every single conspiracy theory,fantasy stratagem and every invective aimed at India and the "Hindu enemy"- [/B]*but fight- that seems to be impossible for the Bangladeshi populace. **If the Awami league is traitorous then throw them out- but you will no- alas they are supported by the mighty RAW. If troubles spawn within the nation then resolve them- but you will not- alas the mighty RAW initiated and fuels them. * *It is this same pusillanimous attitude that plagues you- not RAW or Mossad or some conspiracy. *



RAW was and is involved in our landmass. RAW former official B Raman himself admitted as much in his book, which I quoted.



Dillinger said:


> * If managing your nation is so bothersome then by all means try and surrender it to a third power- subject obviously to the mighty RAW's permission. If a free nation is not to your liking then by all means try and undo India's smashing victory in 71- subject obviously to the mighty RAW's permission. * *Most importantly the foolish fantasy of trying to separate the north eastern states of India from their nation- if that is where greater power lies then try it- subject obviously to whether Bangladesh will ever be able counter RAW covertly in such matters or even survive as a nation if it engages in the venture overtly. *



I have no fantasy of separating NE states, but this insurgency was helped by ISI pre-1971 and China. To stop this help using Bangladesh soil was one of prime motivation why Pakistan was broken and Bangladesh was created.



Dillinger said:


> *Instead of bitterly visiting and revisiting the much lamentable "fait accompli" lets see you generate some succinct and solid solutions meant to deal with this "Hindu malaise"**- MORE IMPORTANTLY LETS SEE THEIR ACTIVE APPLICATION, SHALL WE? *



First we will have to eliminate and neutralize foreign agents among our midst and then find allied nations.

Your post is a whole lot of invective based on false and imagined premises, but I have answered each and every one of the false accusations.

All of the above is pretty much off topic. If you have any comments about Agartala case and what it means for history, please feel free to share with us.


----------



## kalu_miah

Dillinger said:


> *How are my words even remotely threatening?* *Let us be clear, I do not- absolutely do not endorse this idiocy about Indian parties, organisations, RAW, or the GOI controlling matters in Bangladesh!* *Which part of my post came out as threatening to you. Quote those relevant bits! Wait, was it the last bit where I stated that any attempt to destabilize India's north east would lead to lethal and permanent consequences for your nation?* *I have mentioned the RAW and its "interference" and supposed "mastery" in Bangladesh because POSTERS LIKE YOU INSIST THAT IT CONTROLS YOUR COUNTRY- NOT BECAUSE IT IS FACTUALLY CORRECT!* Every other Indian only views such opinions as lunacy and at most will laugh at the expense of the poster espousing them. The post is meant to simply highlight the pusillanimous attitude that plagues certain people from your nation and various attempts by them to undermine its pride and sovereignty. By all means, no one has prevented Bangladesh from joining the ASEAN or any other such grouping- that is not for us (Indians) to decide or even seriously comment upon. If anything though it would be a welcome move- bringing greater prosperity to the region. One needs only to look at the close integration that India is in the process of executing with ASEAN and the benefits that shall be reaped from it.



Your RAW controls not just Indian media, it also controls most of Bangladesh media with its control of AL. It is obvious that public in both India and Bangladesh is oblivious to RAW activity in neighbor countries, because of this media brainwashing in both countries.

India is and will be an observer and trade partner to ASEAN, but it can never join ASEAN as a full member, as it is just too big to join this group. A Vietnamese member highlighted this fact in an earlier thread. Smaller nations in the neighborhood have a better chance to join as bona fide full members.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## kalu_miah

jaibi said:


> History is much more powerful entity than we give it credit for. The events that lead up to the 1971 have a long past with seeds sowed in the Cold War dynamics and our local rivilary. To blame Mujib, Yahya Khan or even one party and not the other is unfair. Everyone shares the blame. Yes, India manipulated the situation; yes, Mujib got impatient; yes, Bhutto got unrelenting; yes, the West Pakistani upper crest suppressed the Bengali culture (they still oppress other cultures even/especially Punjabis). So why are we fighting? Pakistan and Bangladesh can still be good allies and develop togther and if need be even act as counters to Indian strenght but the path to that is in future planning and vision not revisiting history.



That is a good spirit, all of us should work for a better future. 

We are revisiting history because some people in our country still do not know real picture and track record of this party called AL and their history of cooperation with the intelligence agency of a neighbor country.



ShadowFaux said:


> The Agartala incident is a conspiracy from the west Pakistani point of view. Years of oppression led to that incident. But it was necessary for us which was later proved by west pakistani authority when they denied to handover the power.



If Chittagong natives plan a secret armed rebellion with India's help to secede from Bangladesh, then it should be ok in your opinion?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## kalu_miah

Moander said:


> Than please tell me who are your people? It seems you are justifying the actions taken by Pakistani Army against our people in 1971.



My people are 160 million minus the people that work with any foreign intelligence agency to undermine our national interest.

Show me where I have justified actions of Pakistan Army in 1971, please quote my words from any of my post, before making blanket accusations.



anilindia said:


> All those who support jamaat and opposing agartala consipiracy for independence should go through this article abour mass scale rape..
> 
> 1971 Rapes: Bangladesh Cannot Hide History - Forbes



Agartala conspiracy happened a few years earlier than 1971, any discussion on 1971 is off topic.



neutral_person said:


> Countries supporting parties that have a favourable view of ourselves is a pretty common thing. Yes we provided training and arms to the Mukti Bahini, but that is no different than BD supporting NE insurgents, or Pak supporting Kashmiri (and before that Kkalistani) insurgents in India.
> 
> Bottom line is, India played a hand in 1971 in BD/Awami League's favour, but so did USA in the Pakistanis favour (shall we forget the 7th fleet incident in the Bay of Bengal?), and Russians in the BD favour. Obviously India being geographically closer played a bigger hand than other countries. But saying things like I see blood in "India's hands", when India probably had the least amount of blood out of anyone in that war, be it Pakistani soldiers that killed Bengalis or Mukti Bahani people that killed Jamaatis and Pakistanis is simply absurd and a very biased viewpoint.
> 
> So yes you are entitled to your views, even when they are completely wrong and devoid of any logic.



Another Indian who did not read the topic of discussion. 1971 conflict is not part of the discussion here. The topic is Agartala case.


----------



## neutral_person

kalu_miah said:


> Another Indian who did not read the topic of discussion. 1971 conflict is not part of the discussion here. The topic is Agartala case.



Well you started talking about the 1971 war, go check the post I replied to. I personally couldnt care less about internal BD politics, but when you bring India in it and make statements like the one you did which I replied to, than you better back it up with facts or STFU about my country. You can bash your fellow BDeshis who are Awami all you want, I couldnt care less who wins in the Jamaat vs Awami League row thats going on here. Everytime you say the word India, an Indian will jump up in his country's defence whether you like it or not, especially against the _BS people like you_ and some other Bangladeshis belonging to a _very specific group_ comment about here.


----------



## kalu_miah

neutral_person said:


> Well you started talking about the 1971 war, go check the post I replied to. I personally couldnt care less about internal BD politics, but when you bring India in it and make statements like the one you did which I replied to, than you better back it up with facts or STFU about my country. You can bash your fellow BDeshis who are Awami all you want, I couldnt care less who wins in the Jamaat vs Awami League row thats going on here. Everytime you say the word India, an Indian will jump up in his country's defence whether you like it or not, especially against the _BS people like you_ and some other Bangladeshis belonging to a _very specific group_ comment about here.



I could care less how much you or other Indians jump up and down, as long as India keeps messing around in our country, we will keep pointing out these facts to our people and to the people of the world.


----------



## neutral_person

kalu_miah said:


> I could care less how much you or other Indians jump up and down, as long as India keeps messing around in our country, we will keep pointing out these facts to our people and to the people of the world.



OK I guess. No one stopped you from that. 

The only problem I had was with the statement of "blood being on India's hands". Lets consider the worst case scenario, which you suggest, which is India artificially by itself manufactured a civil war in BD (which BTW I think is completely wrong). Even in this case, it was Pakistanis that killed Bangladeshis, and Bangladeshis that killed Jamaatis and Pakistanis. India took a side in the war (of Awami League and Bangladeshis), just like Russia/US did, albeit to a larger scale. If I somehow convince you to kill your brother today, go to any court, and the punishment for that murder will be yours not mine. I can suggest you to do a lot of things, ultimately the blame goes to you for doing whatever action of murder/rape that happened.

Let me now provide you with this alternate (and much more believe-able) reality, India getting involved in the war (due to refugees from your side) actually saved a lot more bloodshed. Operation Searchlight was going on for almost a year (9 months), and neither Mukti Bahini nor Pak was clearly able to wipe the enemy out. 

Also, Mukti Bahini was out for revenge against the Bihari and UP Jamatis/Rajaakaars once Pak had surrendered and left. It was the Indian Army that provided security to these very same people from Bengali Bangladeshis after the war. Go watch the video below from a neutral source.


----------



## kalu_miah

^^ Off topic. Post reported.


----------



## LaBong

When Bangladeshis can't keep up arguing or can't response in logically coherent manner, they just start reporting en masse!


----------



## ShadowFaux

kalu_miah said:


> That is a good spirit, all of us should work for a better future.
> 
> We are revisiting history because some people in our country still do not know real picture and track record of this party called AL and their history of cooperation with the intelligence agency of a neighbor country.
> 
> 
> 
> If Chittagong natives plan a secret armed rebellion with India's help to secede from Bangladesh, then it should be ok in your opinion?



Yes, if they are oppressed and if they win the national election and are denied power.


----------



## anilindia

Agartala conspiracy was dubbed as an anti-state act by the then Pakistan rulers, but for Bengladeshi it was the heroic act of some sons of this soil to free the motherland. These 35 "accused" of this case should receive distinctive honour since the timing and nature of their act was very dangerous and risky. 

Even UN has declared 21 feb as International Mother Language Day in respect for those killed on 21 feb 1952. Actually hapenning in 21 feb 1952 is the start of language movement which later converted to independence.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## ShadowFaux

anilindia said:


> Agartala conspiracy was dubbed as an anti-state act by the then Pakistan rulers, but for Bengladeshi it was the heroic act of some sons of this soil to free the motherland. These 35 "accused" of this case should receive distinctive honour since the timing and nature of their act was very dangerous and risky.
> 
> Even UN has declared 21 feb as International Mother Language Day in respect for those killed on 21 feb 1952. Actually hapenning in 21 feb 1952 is the start of language movement which later converted to independence.



Mixed up a little bit mate? 

21 feb :1952

Agartala : 1968


----------



## anilindia

The infamous "Agartala conpiracy case" was dubbed as an anti-state act by the then Pakistan rulers, but in reality, it was the heroic act of some indomitable sons of this soil to free the motherland. Those sons, who must be saluted for their bravery and valour, numbered 35 as "accused" in the case and the "number one" was none other than Sheikh Mujibur Rahman, who later was titled "Bangabandhu". Now, only nine of these so-called "accused" are alive today and the rest are dead. The last one to die was the 30th accused Mahbubuddin Chowdhury who met his tragic death in a car accident in the capital city recently.

At a memorial meeting on Mahbubuddin Chowdhury a few days ago at the "Muktijoddah Jadughar", Deputy Speaker of the Jatiya Sangsad Colonel(retd) Shawkat Ali, a prime accused of the "Agartala conspiracy case", categorically said that there must be no confusion in the merit of the issue as it was a courageous act by some valiant sons of the soil for the sake of the motherland. He said, they worked to free the country under the leadership of Sheikh Mujibur Rahman and called for honouring all those brave sons with high tributes. The Deputy Speaker showered praises on Mahbubuddin Chowdhury and said, he along with several others dared to hold secret meetings in Karachi for planning and execution of schemes to overthrow the Ayub regime and such acts were demonstrations of great courage in those difficult days.

Mahbubuddun Chowdhury, later a politician and freedom fighter, was one of the few persons present at a historic meeting chaired by the then Colonel (retd) MAG Osmani. He was an organiser of the war and was involved in direct actions in several battles against the occupation forces.

The "Agartala conspiracy case" still remains a kind of misnomer to many but there should be no iota of doubt that it bears immense significance in our history as an independent nation. This represents a glorious saga of how the sons of this land swung into extremely dangerous acts for the interest of the motherland.

Incidentally, I happened to be a privy to that "Agartala conspiracy case" to a certain extent and knew that something was being done by some Bengalees in those dark days. Mahbub Bhai, my cousin, was an elder brother to me as we came from the same family from a village in Madhavpur upazila of Habiganj in the greater Sylhet area. I was associated with left politics in Dhaka university during the late seventies and saw the developments in those days from close proximity as a university correspondent of an English daily.

Mahbub Bhai used to stay in our house in Bakshi Bazar (my father is his uncle) whenever he came from Karachi. I accompanied him at least on one occasion to a place where he and some of his friends secretly met to discuss and plan "certain" issues about which I had no clear idea. Later, he was arrested in Karachi when he returned there after a few days' stay in Dhaka. I still vividly remember that Mahbub Bhai and others met at a Dhanmondhi house where the younger brother of one of the accused of the case Lt(retd)M A Rouf of the navy lived.

We, the family members used to visit Mahbub Bhai in the Dhaka cantonment during the trial of the "Agartala conspiracy case". Since my uncle (his father) was dead and the elderly aunt (his mother) lived in the village, we were given a regular pass for the trial and I had gone there several times. I saw the "accused" - notably Bangabandhu Sheikh Mujibur Rahman, civil servants Ruhul Quddus and Khan Shamsur Rahman, naval commander Moazzem Hossain and Abdur Rouf, Stg. Zahurul Huq, Steward Mujib and many others in the dock from visitors gallery. 

We used to discuss with our cousin at times about his defense in the case and other related matters. Still a student of the Dhaka university, I saw gleefully how the "Agartala conspiracy case" was blown away by the mass upsurge following the killing of Segt. Zahurul Huq.

I saw some of the living "accused" of the "Agartala conspuiracy case" at the memorial meeting of my cousin Mahbub Bhai when speakers including Colonol(retd) Shawkat Ali demanded special recognition of those involved in the case. Among the speakers were politicians Pankaj Bhattacharaya, Rashed Khan Menon and Manzurul Ahsan Khan. Truly, the "accused" of this case should receive distinctive honour since the timing and nature of their act was so dangerous and risky that they simply gambled with their lives.

February 22 was the anniversary of the "freedom" of the "accused" of the "Agartala conspiracy case." The call for honouring the great sons of the soil in a bigger way must be accompanied by a much louder voice.


Financial Express :: Financial Newspaper of Bangladesh



ShadowFaux said:


> Mixed up a little bit mate?
> 
> 21 feb :1952
> 
> Agartala : 1968



Yaa but it all started with 21 feb 1952 event

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Moander

kalu_miah said:


> My people are 160 million minus the people that work with any foreign intelligence agency to undermine our national interest.
> 
> Show me where I have justified actions of Pakistan Army in 1971, please quote my words from any of my post, before making blanket accusations.
> 
> 
> 
> Agartala conspiracy happened a few years earlier than 1971, any discussion on 1971 is off topic.
> 
> 
> 
> Another Indian who did not read the topic of discussion. 1971 conflict is not part of the discussion here. The topic is Agartala case.



Here is your proof.



kalu_miah said:


> First of all, some disclaimer. I am a loyal citizen of Bangladesh (as well as the US), but I believe we need to find facts about our own history. So these are part of my efforts to uncover some uncomfortable facts and ask some hard questions. Please do not take these efforts to mean that I am pro or anti independence of Bangladesh, I am neither and I accept it as a fait accompli, a done deal that cannot be reversed. Like the majority of Bangladeshi's living today, I had no role in that conflict in 1971. As far as I know my parents did not play any role either.
> 
> *Agartala Conspiracy confession, what does it mean for our history.*
> 
> Relevant PDF threads for reference:
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/current-events-social-issues/156104-isi-nabbed-traitors.html
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/curren...tala-memogate-another-conspiracy-reality.html
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-history-strategy/50095-truth-1971-sheikh-haseena-wajid.html
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/bangladesh-defence/124950-raw-says-mujib-not-their-agent.html
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/bangladesh-defence/19050-book-review-india-doctrine-1947-2007-a-14.html
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-history-strategy/1870-creation-bangladesh-14.html#post92614
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/bangla...971-war-pakistan-vs-india-untold-story-2.html
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/bangladesh-defence/31528-bangladesh-balochistan-3.html
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...eague-not-allowed-form-government-1971-a.html
> 
> I have been looking at life history of both Suhrawardy and Mujib to see where the seed of rebellion came from. The idea of United Bengal came from Suhrawardy:
> Huseyn Shaheed Suhrawardy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> After partition however Suhrawardy gave up on this idea since it was rejected by people. He had been a loyal son of the country and had great accomplishment as a leader:
> - solidified Pak-China and Pak-US ties
> - moved towards free-market capitalism away from communism although he had a soft corner for socialism
> - initiated plan for nuclear power generation as well as weapons in the future
> 
> But he had another side:
> 
> 
> 
> The above shows Suhrawardy's human side, he was no saint. But what piqued my interest about the above is this question: * is it possible that Mujib was one of these goondas?*
> 
> What I can see is that Suhrawardy was a person of integrity and foresight, and he was from a distinguished family. He tried the idea of United Bengal, as it was worth a try, but after partition, he dropped that idea, as anyone with a minimum knowledge of geopolitics would know that East Pakistan by itself would be a much more vulnerable entity with India on 3 sides. But *if young Mujib was one of his goondas (I don't know for sure) then this could have given him the dream that one day he might be able to make East Pakistan secede from West Pakistan and rule over it as a benevolent king/dictator/dear-leader/bongo-bandhu?*
> 
> Because what I see from Mujib's life history is that this person is the root of the seed of rebellion. This rebellion was made without considering the long term future of his people, who had taken this obsolete idea (United Independent Bengal) from Suhrawardy and turned it into his modified dream of truncated independent kingdom of East Bengal and proceeded to ally with an enemy state and people (Hindu's) to engineer a secession to make his dream come true:
> Sheikh Mujibur Rahman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Swadhin Bangal Biplobi Parishad - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> Again I see that demagogues and rabble rousers become leaders with little idea of geopolitics and lead nations and people to a direction with disastrous consequences for the people they lead, blind leading the blind. If Mujib was really knowledgeable about geopolitics, instead of working with Indian intelligence, he would work with ISI and Chinese intelligence to help Phizo and Laldenga to gain independence for North East states. Current Awami League rule is nothing but a continuation of this long tradition that started with Mujib:
> 
> - cooperation with India to control Bangladesh
> - serve Indian national interest while ruling Bangladesh
> 
> Coming to the Agartala Conspiracy case:
> Agartala Conspiracy Case - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Forum
> 
> 
> People of then East Pakistan thought this was a case to frame popular leader Mujib to taint his reputation. But that impression was a lie, as we can see that Indian intelligence influenced media have established this myth, while in reality the opposite was true, as was admitted by Shawkat Ali:
> Col. Shawkat Ali - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> Funny thing is these shameless idiots are now trying to establish a treason case as some kind of heroic act. My question is why admit it in 2010 (or is it 2011), why not in 1968, when it mattered? Or why not in 1972? Why the silence for 40 long years?
> 
> 35 'accused' honoured
> 
> 
> Textbook%20'incorrectly'%20describes%20Agartala%20Case:%20Shawkat]Textbook 'incorrectly' describes Agartala Case: Shawkat
> 
> 
> Note the attempt to establish a treason case as a "patriotic" case and include it in textbooks for 9th and 10th grade to brainwash new generation of Bangladeshi's.
> 
> What the above does not tell you is that 6 point "autonomy" movement was the deceptive facade that RAW/IB has designed together with these traitors so they could proceed with their plan for secession. They got caught red-handed by ISI only after some of them raided some armory against advice given by Indian intelligence (IB/RAW):
> RAW says Mujib was not their agent :: Weekly Blitz
> 
> Of course Mujib never "worked" and got paid from Indian intelligence. His vision was that he was king of East Bengal, who was getting India's help to liberate his land. *But note the lie in green by Sankaran Nair, as Shawkat Ali has already confessed about the truth of the Agartala case.*
> 
> Questions:
> 
> 1. Sure there was economic deprivation, but were the West Pakistani's killing us since 1950's?
> 2. Who gave the right to Mujib to make this decision on behalf of East Pakistan to secede?
> 2. Who started the killing, were it not the planned saboteurs of Indian trained Awami agents who started the killings of Biharis months before Operation Searchlight?
> 3. Who gave the right to Mujib to seek help and become the partner of our 800 year old enemy entity, Hindu's of South Asia?
> 4. Is it not possible that instead of seeking help from an enemy that hates us Muslims to the core, that we could confront and raise this issue with our "oppressor" the West Pakistani's who were fellow Muslims after all?
> 5. If some of our "leaders" did not conspire with our enemy and committed treason (partner with an enemy state to plan for secession) and if we tried to solve these issues honestly, frankly and in a straight forward way, do we think we would still be treated the way we were treated (operation searchlight)?
> 
> If we could peacefully resolve the differences between the two wings of Pakistan and achieve autonomy or amicable separation, then:
> 
> 1. hundreds of thousands of people (Hindu's, Bengali Muslims, non-Bengali Muslims) would not be killed and become victims of rape and other atrocities
> 2. we could still have a better relationship between the 2nd and 3rd largest Muslim countries of the world
> 3. India would not gloat of their victory against West Pakistan and gifting us our "independence"
> 4. both parts would not become weaker, as both could share the nuclear power
> 5. India would not dare to proceed with its water terrorism, border violence and Shanti Bahini insurgency against Bangladesh
> 6. last but not least North East today may have become partly independent if not completely
> 
> Now can we say that India found a "useful idiot" who had a bunch of other idiot followers to achieve India's goal to break Pakistan, the largest Muslim country in the world, and thus reduce strategic threats for Indian nation? In the process, hundreds of thousands of people got killed in the civil war and a great rift was created among two of the largest Muslim communities of the world.
> 
> Now can we say that Awami League should never be trusted again by people of Bangladesh and it should be banned and abolished, so the joint team of Awami League and Indian intelligence cannot hurt the national interest of Bangladesh any further?



On the above quote you clearly try to justify the action of Pakistani army's action in 1971.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## anilindia

A simple question to @kalu_miah ..
Are u happy with Agartala Conspiracy if it resulted in Bangladesh independence...


----------



## Md Akmal

anilindia said:


> A simple question to @kalu_miah ..
> Are u happy with Agartala Conspiracy if it resulted in Bangladesh independence...



@ It is not the question who is happy and who is not. It is the question of historical truth. Once it is clear then everything will be crystal clear.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## jaibi

SABRE said:


> Although it would threaten to get things off topic but I am quite tempted to reply here.
> 
> My single penny says that even if we apologise nothing would come out of it. Anti-Pakistanism is what AL thrives on, its their polity. As long as they keep coming to power they'll keep coming up with some anti-Pakistani reason & prevent at all cost any attempt to forge strong friendly & brotherly BD-Pakistan relations. BNP's polity however appears to be exact opposite. What is surprising is that Mujib did not appear as hostile to Pakistan post BD separation as Hasina does. But what do you expect of a popular leader & a popular puppet?
> 
> On the other hand, I don't know if our BD brothers know or not, there is a speech by ZA Bhutto post BD separation saying (paraphrasing) that they (Bangalis) are our brothers and we must accept their independence. Those who don't agree are children of pigs & can go to hell. Subsequently the first elected parliament accepted BD as a separate country in a constitutional amendment. Every state is an egoistic entity & for Pakistan this measure was a huge one that put darts right at the heart of its ego. *It was a tacit apology*. Asking for anything more is really pushing it.



Agreed. The basic premise behind the apology is to blame everything solely on Pakistan which has been the narrative of India and some political entities in Bangladesh. There needs to be a widening of prespective, yes, Pakistanis were no angels but the whole episode was the outcome of an historical process. We should be sorry for the lives lost or damaged (Pakistani/Indian/Bangladeshi). Not as a political entity for that bears fruit to a political agenda and no spirit of cooperation.



kalu_miah said:


> That is a good spirit, all of us should work for a better future.
> 
> We are revisiting history because some people in our country still do not know real picture and track record of this party called AL and their history of cooperation with the intelligence agency of a neighbor country.
> 
> 
> 
> If Chittagong natives plan a secret armed rebellion with India's help to secede from Bangladesh, then it should be ok in your opinion?



History is not a collection of facts but an interpretation of it. History would keep on evolving expressing the dilemas of one era or another yet it is up to us to progress not because of it but despite it.


----------



## kalu_miah

Moander said:


> Here is your proof.
> 
> On the above quote you clearly try to justify the action of Pakistani army's action in 1971.



That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. I would never try to justify Pakistan Army's actions and atrocities. My post was about Agartala case and how it fit with India's overall plan.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## kalu_miah

anilindia said:


> A simple question to @kalu_miah ..
> Are u happy with Agartala Conspiracy if it resulted in Bangladesh independence...



Let me put it this way, I would be happier if 1947 partition did not happen, I do not like small states, secession and partitions, specially if it is not in the long term geopolitical interest of the people. Once Radcliffe borders were drawn, separation of the two wings was only a matter of time. Lord Mountbatten gave it 25 years and 1971 March 26 was 24 years and 7 months after 1947 Independence.

If it was up to me, I would like to have seen a separation of two wings of Pakistan in an amicable divorce, not in a bitter war where India meddled and engineered the separation for its own geopolitical interest using its agents and "useful idiot" and a lot of people lost their lives, as a result.

And I am not sure how we can call it independence in 1971. We gained our independence from British colonial rulers in 1947. Did West Pakistan become our colonial ruler some where along the line betweeen 1947 and 1971? I know there was military rule and both wings were under military rule and this military was West Pakistan dominated. But democracy would have flourished eventually. So secession and separation are more dignified expressions in my opinion. Independence implies that West Pakistan somehow was our colonial ruler.

For those of you who are not familiar with the term "useful idiot":

Useful idiot - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> *In political jargon, useful idiot is a pejorative term for people perceived as propagandists for a cause whose goals they do not understand, and who are used cynically by the leaders of the cause.
> The term has been used to refer to Soviet sympathizers in Western countries. The implication was that, although the people in question naïvely thought of themselves as an ally of the Soviet Union, they were actually held in contempt and were being cynically used. The use of the term in political discourse has since been extended to other propagandists, especially those who are seen to unwittingly support a malignant cause which they naïvely believe to be a force for good.[1]
> Despite often being attributed to Lenin,[2][3][4] in 1987, Grant Harris, senior reference librarian at the Library of Congress, declared that "We have not been able to identify this phrase among [Lenin's] published works."[5][6]
> A New York Times article from 1948, on contemporary Italian politics, documented usage of the term in an article from the social-democratic Italian paper L'Umanita.[7] The French equivalent, "idiots utiles", was used in a newspaper article title as early as 1946.[8]
> An earlier usage (1947) of a similar term, useful innocents, appears in Austrian-American economist Ludwig von Mises' "Planned Chaos". Von Mises claims the term was used by communists for liberals that von Mises describes as "confused and misguided sympathizers".[9] The term useful innocents also appears in a Readers Digest article (1946) titled "Yugoslavia's Tragic Lesson to the World", an excerpt from a, at the time, forthcoming book (no title printed) authored by Bogdan Raditsa (Bogdan Radica), a "high ranking official of the Yugoslav Government". Raditsa says: "In the Serbo-Croat language the communists have a phrase for true democrats who consent to collaborate with them for 'democracy.' It is Koristne Budale, or Useful Innocents."[10] Although Raditsa translates the phrase as "Useful Innocents", the word budala (plural: budale) actually translates as "fool" and synonyms thereof.
> A 2010 BBC radio documentary titled Useful Idiots listed among "useful idiots" of Joseph Stalin several prominent British writers including H. G. Wells and Doris Lessing, the Irish writer George Bernard Shaw, the American journalist Walter Duranty, Bono and the singer Paul Robeson.[11]*

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Moander

kalu_miah said:


> That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. I would never try to justify Pakistan Army's actions and atrocities. My post was about Agartala case and how it fit with India's overall plan.



You are also entitled to your opinion. But your attempt to expose India's overall plan is unintentionally justifying Pakistan Army's actions in 1971. May be you are blinded by hatred towards Awami & India that's why you don't see it. I don't have anything against you but what you are doing like nizer nak kata aracjoner jatra vongo cora.


----------



## anilindia

kalu_miah said:


> Let me put it this way, I would be happier if 1947 partition did not happen, I do not like small states, secession and partitions, specially if it is not in the long term geopolitical interest of the people. Once Radcliffe borders were drawn, separation of the two wings was only a matter of time. Lord Mountbatten gave it 25 years and 1971 March 26 was 24 years and 7 months after 1947 Independence.
> 
> If it was up to me, I* would like to have seen a separation of two wings of Pakistan in an amicable divorce*, not in a bitter war where India meddled and engineered the separation for its own geopolitical interest using its agents and "useful idiot" and a lot of people lost their lives, as a result.
> 
> And I am not sure how we can call it independence in 1971. We gained our independence from British colonial rulers in 1947. *Did West Pakistan become our colonial ruler some where along the line betweeen 1947 and 1971*? I know there was military rule and both wings were under military rule and this military was West Pakistan dominated. But democracy would have flourished eventually. So secession and separation are more dignified expressions in my opinion. *Independence implies that West Pakistan somehow was our colonial ruler.*




West Pakistan was not ready for this amicable divorce. Even they are not ready for PM from east pakistan to run whole pakistan even if he won election.

East pakistan has not got their due even they have more population. Mujib won election but was denied power. West Pakistan was not ready to give power to any non punjabi..

Now its upto you decide whether this is independence or separation.


----------



## rubyjackass

kalu_miah said:


> History becomes a victim of propaganda and politics. It is our responsibility as human beings to find the facts and set history straight. Why is it important, because nations, just like people stumble and fall and make mistakes. In order to learn from these mistakes we need to know history as close to the facts on the ground as possible. A nation and people that does not know its own correct history, is bound to make the same mistakes twice.


Wow kalu_miah!! After going through your new world order planning, I can't believe you wrote such a sensible comment.



mb444 said:


> In my opinion it does not mean jack. Separation was inevitable due to west pakistans misguided sense of superiority and entitlement. It was only a matter of time. Agartola is irrelevant.


But it is important to study the roots of the movement. We should know, understand and teach history so that our next generations will not repeat the mistakes. 

I agree that there were enough precursors even without the army action. Which other country would reject a language spoken by more than a half of the population and choose a language which is not local to any of its province as official language?! 
The language movements threatened other provinces of Pakistan and even the Indian Union. 
Even the man who brought Sindh into Pakistan went against the federation over the language and One Unit issue. It would seem that even other parts of Pakistan were on the trajectory of East Pakistan. 

Anyway we have to find out if Mujib was involved in the 'conspiracy', what were his motives? If he was not involved, what were the motives of the people involved? Why were there so many people involved in the 'conspiracy'(If 35 people are involved, why is it amusingly called conspiracy? It should be something like a morcha. Later more than thousand people would be arrested for this plot) without the common people knowing about it? Or was it that common people knew about it. What was the deal with India exactly, it there was one? Why did India not provide help immediately?

There are many such interesting questions and you don't want to know?!



kalu_miah said:


> That is a good spirit, all of us should work for a better future.
> 
> We are revisiting history because some people in our country still do not know real picture and track record of this party called AL and their history of cooperation with the intelligence agency of a neighbor country.


The question is do Bangladeshis vote for AL just because they are still grateful for independence? Or it is becuase they have better administration and offer more secular politics.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## kalu_miah

Moander said:


> You are also entitled to your opinion. But your attempt to expose India's overall plan is unintentionally justifying Pakistan Army's actions in 1971. May be you are blinded by hatred towards Awami & India that's why you don't see it. I don't have anything against you but what you are doing like nizer nak kata aracjoner jatra vongo cora.



I have no intention to justify actions of "Hanadar" army. My only intention is to do justice to history. If that feels uncomfortable and feels like justification for others actions, that is not my problem.


----------



## kalu_miah

rubyjackass said:


> Wow kalu_miah!! After going through your new world order planning, I can't believe you wrote such a sensible comment.
> 
> But it is important to study the roots of the movement. We should know, understand and teach history so that our next generations will not repeat the mistakes.
> 
> I agree that there were enough precursors even without the army action. Which other country would reject a language spoken by more than a half of the population and choose a language which is not local to any of its province as official language?!
> The language movements threatened other provinces of Pakistan and even the Indian Union.
> Even the man who brought Sindh into Pakistan went against the federation over the language and One Unit issue. It would seem that even other parts of Pakistan were on the trajectory of East Pakistan.
> 
> Anyway we have to find out if Mujib was involved in the 'conspiracy', what were his motives? If he was not involved, what were the motives of the people involved? Why were there so many people involved in the 'conspiracy'(If 35 people are involved, why is it amusingly called conspiracy? It should be something like a morcha. Later more than thousand people would be arrested for this plot) without the common people knowing about it? Or was it that common people knew about it. What was the deal with India exactly, it there was one? Why did India not provide help immediately?
> 
> There are many such interesting questions and you don't want to know?!
> 
> The question is do Bangladeshis vote for AL just because they are still grateful for independence? Or it is becuase they have better administration and offer more secular politics.



Thanks for your show of support about historical truth.

AL is ruining India Bangladesh relations. I will tell you the reasons:

- AL uses Indian resources to get to power
- AL uses Hindu vote bank
- AL people like other politicians make money from their position, but the extent is worse than BNP
- AL engage in terrorizing the opposition much more than BNP
- AL puts their people in many layers of admin so they can do vote rigging and come back to power

This leaves majority of Bangladeshi's resentful of AL and their association with India. Eventually I think BNP will bring in Chinese as an ally to defeat AL-India combine, if BNP survives. But lets see how many years it takes for China to become interested in Bangladesh internal politics.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Pakistanisage

kumarkumar1867 said:


> India is Bangladesh's Enemy?? and who says this.... You, Kalu Miah & few PDF members??
> *We have no issues with Bangladesh except Illegal Immigration cases.*
> 
> Welcome to Reality, here things are exactly opposite than you & few members dream about.







Oh yes there is this huge Problem of ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION as you so delicately put it. First off, most of the illegal immigration is to Provinces and Districts that should have gone to East Pakistan anyway because Muslims had a majority in that province, but you deviously carved out West Bengal from United Bengal.

And then there is the Problem of those pesky DAMS that you keep building on Bangladeshi Water.

And then again there is a problem of your Border Guards keep shooting and killing innocent Bangladeshi Citizens and stealing their property.

And then of course this Problem of your country wanting to violate their Sovereignty by wanting free access through Bangladesh to reach your other Provinces.

And then again there is this issue of your Government trying to bribe the disgraceful Awami League to get whatever you want and Bangladeshi citizens are not consulted.

And then again there is this problem of your country wanting to bully little Bangladeshis into submission.

Looks like there are plenty of issues and more keep adding to the list.

Talk to an average Bangladeshi and he hates BHARTIS.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## neutral_person

Pakistanisage said:


> Oh yes there is this huge Problem of ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION as you so delicately put it. First off, most of the illegal immigration is to Provinces and Districts that should have gone to East Pakistan anyway because Muslims had a majority in that province, but you deviously carved out West Bengal from United Bengal.
> 
> And then there is the Problem of those pesky DAMS that you keep building on Bangladeshi Water.
> 
> And then again there is a problem of your Border Guards keep shooting and killing innocent Bangladeshi Citizens.
> 
> And then of course this Problem of your country wanting to violate their Sovereignty by wanting free access through Bangladesh to reach your other Provinces.
> 
> And then again there is this issue of your Government trying to bribe the disgraceful Awami League to get whatever you want and Bangladeshi citizens are not consulted.
> 
> And then again there is this problem of your country wanting to bully little Bangladeshis into submission.
> 
> Looks like there are plenty of issues and more keep adding to the list.
> 
> Talk to an average Bangladeshi and he hates BHARTIS.



All of that combined is still not even 1% of what Pak did to BD


----------



## Pakistanisage

neutral_person said:


> All of that combined is still not even 1% of what Pak did to BD





And yet 3 million of our Bangladeshi Brothers live in my hometown KARACHI.

And I for one welcome each and everyone of them.


----------



## kalu_miah

neutral_person said:


> All of that combined is still not even 1% of what Pak did to BD



But that is now more than 40 year old history, we have now minimal relations with Pakistan as it is 1200 miles away and we are dealing with India today and in perpetuity on all three sides of our border.


----------



## neutral_person

kalu_miah said:


> But that is now more than 40 year old history, we have now minimal relations with Pakistan as it is 1200 miles away and we are dealing with India today and in perpetuity on all three sides of our border.



Likewise, we also have to deal with issues you create...


----------



## Moander

kalu_miah said:


> I have no intention to justify actions of "Hanadar" army. My only intention is to do justice to history. If that feels uncomfortable and feels like justification for others actions, that is not my problem.



Don't take it the wrong way but any normal Bangladeshi will react to those articles.


----------



## kalu_miah

Moander said:


> Don't take it the wrong way but any normal Bangladeshi will react to those articles.



I am aware of that. That is because most "normal" Bangladeshi's do not know the correct version of history. I think all of us have been a victim of a large scale propaganda exercise. I did not about these either, till I got curious and started digging.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Moander

kalu_miah said:


> I am aware of that. That is because most "normal" Bangladeshi's do not know the correct version of history. I think all of us have been a victim of a large scale propaganda exercise. I did not about these either, till I got curious and started digging.



Selective history is common all over the world. Every children learn about their glorified history from school history book. Try to dig dart on others without putting dart on Bangladesh. Truth can be twisted in a way that sometimes truth is worse than false.


----------



## kalu_miah

Moander said:


> Selective history is common all over the world. Every children learn about their glorified history from school history book. Try to dig dart on others without putting dart on Bangladesh. Truth can be twisted in a way that sometimes truth is worse than false.



I think your feeling about this issue is clear by now, if you have something of value to add, please do it.


----------



## ShadowFaux

kalu_miah said:


> I think your feeling about this issue is clear by now, if you have something of value to add, please do it.



He did. He made a point. You are putting dirt on Bangladesh. I wonder what your intentions are.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Moander

kalu_miah said:


> I think your feeling about this issue is clear by now, if you have something of value to add, please do it.



I have said too much already, hope you will consider peoples feeling in your search for truth .


----------



## kalu_miah

ShadowFaux said:


> He did. He made a point. You are putting dirt on Bangladesh. I wonder what your intentions are.



Mujib and AL is not Bangladesh.


----------



## Moander

kalu_miah said:


> Mujib and AL is not Bangladesh.



I didn't object because your comments on Mujib and AL. I don't have problem with that, you have right to criticize anyone you want. I don't know how many times i have to repeat myself , your Agartala related posts are justifying Pakistani Army's action in 1971 that's why i am complaining over and over .

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## ShadowFaux

kalu_miah said:


> Mujib and AL is not Bangladesh.



Before taking about Mujib, go learn some history first. Did you listen to the Speech of declaration of Liberation by Major Zia? Why was Mujib mentioned there? Anyway, no point arguing with someone who is trying to make Bangladesh look bad.
@Moander, he knows that already. Watch his posts closely, you'll see a pattern.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## priti

I have been to dhaka once and stayed with one of my firends who studied in our college. very crowded place and had a feel like an india town. not much diference though. i wish they had more vegetarian food. i think i will go there some time as his sister is getting married, bangla style , of course!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## ShadowFaux

@priti, u are welcome here!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## kalu_miah

Moander said:


> I didn't object because your comments on Mujib and AL. I don't have problem with that, you have right to criticize anyone you want. I don't know how many times i have to repeat myself , your Agartala related posts are justifying Pakistani Army's action in 1971 that's why i am complaining over and over .



I know how you feel, but I will continue to point out activities of Indian agents and collaborators among our midst.


----------



## Moander

kalu_miah said:


> I know how you feel, but I will continue to point out activities of Indian agents and collaborators among our midst.



If you gonna do it, please be careful about Bangladesh's image that's all i ask.


----------



## kalu_miah

Moander said:


> If you gonna do it, please be careful about Bangladesh's image that's all i ask.



Bangladesh image will be better if we learn to be self critical and not blind followers of some demagogue who proved himself to be a failure on all aspects.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## priti

kalu_miah said:


> Bangladesh image will be better if we learn to be self critical and not blind followers of some demagogue who proved himself to be a failure on all aspects.



are you saying this about mujib who got you freedom from oppression? why would you?
most bangladeshis are happy to be secular from what i have experienced.


----------



## Moander

kalu_miah said:


> Bangladesh image will be better if we learn to be self critical and not blind followers of some demagogue who proved himself to be a failure on all aspects.



Its only applicable when everyone is doing it or you will end up making fool out of Bangladesh unintentionally. Look at china, japan,India,Pakistan etc. everyone has their version of history.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Skallagrim

Moander said:


> Its only applicable when everyone is doing it or you will end up making fool out of Bangladesh unintentionally. Look at china, japan,India,Pakistan etc. everyone has their version of history.



As long as a version of history doesn't stand in the way of sovereignty adopting a certain version seems OK. 

Right from the start kalu_miah's motive has been to make us aware of Indian hegemony in neighboring countries-perhaps justified from Indian geopolitical perspective, but harmful from BD and other neighbors' perspective. He pointed out that in their hegemonic mission India used Awami League who willingly allowed itself to be used by a hostile neighbor and continue to do so. 

The AL didn't severe their Indian connection on BD's separation from Pakistan. It has depended on India for election and party finance which manifests in giving priority of Indian business interests over Bangladeshi ones, in their enthusiasm for giving transit to India despite the later's denying of rightful share of water from common rivers, etc. 

Unfortunately despite India's ill-intent towards BD we have been taught a version of history that shows Indo-Awami nexus as some kind of a savior for Bangladesh. So it's left for the informed individuals to state or discover the pattern of activities of BAL which they have assumed since Mujib took its helm.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Moander

Skallagrim said:


> As long as a version of history doesn't stand in the way of sovereignty adopting a certain version seems OK.
> 
> Right from the start kalu_miah's motive has been to make us aware of Indian hegemony in neighboring countries-perhaps justified from Indian geopolitical perspective, but harmful from BD and other neighbors' perspective. He pointed out that in their hegemonic mission India used Awami League who willingly allowed itself to be used by a hostile neighbor and continue to do so.
> 
> The AL didn't severe their Indian connection on BD's separation from Pakistan. It has depended on India for election and party finance which manifests in giving priority of Indian business interests over Bangladeshi ones, in their enthusiasm for giving transit to India despite the later's denying of rightful share of water from common rivers, etc.
> 
> Unfortunately despite India's ill-intent towards BD we have been taught a version of history that shows Indo-Awami nexus as some kind of a savior for Bangladesh. So it's left for the informed individual to state or discover the pattern of activities of BAL which they have assumed since Mujib took its helm.



You are forgetting that government change after every five years in Bangladesh, so our history in books also changes. Kalu_miah is presenting extreme version of history which can be used to defame our liberation war.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Md Akmal

Moander said:


> You are forgetting that government change after every five years in Bangladesh, so our history in books also changes. Kalu_miah is presenting extreme version of history which can be used to defame our liberation war.



@ Kalu_miah is not presenting extreme version of history what he is presenting is a fact at least what is available. But the unwritten reality was more and more extreme. What you know about the untold facts of our liberation war ?

@ You are believing on these Indian written histories and twisted facts.

@ It was due to the extreme pressure of Sk Mujib that Indian Armies went back so quickly otherwise !!!!!! Even the Indian armies brought near about 500 Civil officers to be placed as DC's and EP's in newly formed Bangladesh. There was always one Indian Brigradier General who used to sit beside Mujib as a political adviser till 1975.

@ It was under these pressure Sk Mujib pardened the collaborated CSP officers. And the first colloborator Army officer Lt Colonel Firoz Salauddin was appointed as his MSP in 1973. You remember during the time of BNP govt there was one police IG, he was also a colloborator and during that time(1971) he was Captain. Once Pakistan Army surrendared he went under ground and after one month mate with Tazzuddin as he was a close relative to him. Soon, this Captain was brought unofficially in front of Mujib and after few days he was enrolled in the Police with all his bach date seniority.

@ Thanks to General Zia and Ershad who gave us a little bit of teste of independency otherwise we were under somewhere, " ebar tura sob joi's dhoni kor".

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Moander

Md Akmal said:


> @ Kalu_miah is not presenting extreme version of history what he is presenting is a fact at least what is available. But the unwritten reality was more and more extreme. What you know about the untold facts of our liberation war ?
> 
> @ You are believing on these Indian written histories and twisted facts.
> 
> @ It was due to the extreme pressure of Sk Mujib that Indian Armies went back so quickly otherwise !!!!!! Even the Indian armies brought near about 500 Civil officers to be placed as DC's and EP's in newly formed Bangladesh. Thee was one Bridradier General who used to sit beside Mujib as a political adviser.
> 
> @ It was under these pressure Sk Mujib pardened the collaborated CSP officers. And the first colloborator Army officer Lt Colonel Firoz Salauddin was appointed as his MSP in 1973. You remember during the time of BNP govt there was one police IG, he was also a colloborator and during that time(1971) he was Captain. Once Pakistan Army surrendared he went under ground and after one month mate with Tazuddin as he aws close relative to him. Soon this Captain was brought officially in front of Mujib and after few days he was enrolled in the Police with all his seniority.



Kalu_miah is presenting the history such a way, it seems 1971 is because of Indian conspiracy and Pakistani army did the right thing in 1971. It undermine our people's contribution in the creation of Bangladesh.


----------



## Skallagrim

Moander said:


> *You are forgetting that government change after every five years in Bangladesh, so our history in books also changes.* Kalu_miah is presenting extreme version of history which can be used to defame our liberation war.



Except the role of Ziaur Rahman during war, historical content in textbooks doesn't change much with change of government. For example, though some accused ones of Agartala Conspiracy admitted of their involvement back in the nineties, textbooks always mentioned the event as a conspiracy framed up by Pakistan govt.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## animelive

Skallagrim said:


> Except the role of Ziaur Rahman during war, historical content in textbooks doesn't change much with change of government. For example, though some accused ones of Agartala Conspiracy admitted of their involvement back in the nineties, textbooks always mentioned the event as a conspiracy framed up by Pakistan govt.



I never saw the mention of Agartala case in any text book in Bangladesh. Despite that, they give a good summary of the overall situation at that time

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Skallagrim

animelive said:


> I never saw the mention of Agartala case in any text book in Bangladesh. Despite that, they give a good summary of the overall situation at that time



wtf... how would they discuss Mass Movement of '69 then!!??

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## animelive

Skallagrim said:


> wtf?? how do they discuss Mass Movement of '69...!!??



They don't, maybe there are some books where those are written but the ones i passed through, only mentioned 52 and 71

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Moander

Skallagrim said:


> Except the role of Ziaur Rahman during war, historical content in textbooks doesn't change much with change of government. For example, though some accused ones of Agartala Conspiracy admitted of their involvement back in the nineties, textbooks always mentioned the event as a conspiracy framed up by Pakistan govt.



So, whats wrong with it? Every country has their version of history.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## ShadowFaux

Moander said:


> So, whats wrong with it? Every country has their version of history.



From our point of view, it wasn't conspiracy. Majority can't conspire.

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## Skallagrim

ShadowFaux said:


> From our point of view, it wasn't conspiracy. Majority can't conspire.



Majority did not conspire, just a handful, without the knowledge or consent of majority.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Skallagrim

By manipulating our feelings and emotion through mispresentation of our history, India and its local agents want us to think and feel in a certain way that helps the Indian intention of subduing our masses. This process is compromising our self-determination as a sovereign nation. Our countrymen are yet to be convinced that knowing the truth would not lead to Mullahism or joining with Pakistan. It would only remove the fog that masks our vision.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## kalu_miah

Moander said:


> Its only applicable when everyone is doing it or you will end up making fool out of Bangladesh unintentionally. Look at china, japan,India,Pakistan etc. everyone has their version of history.



You have made several objectionable claims about my intentions for opening this thread. I do not claim to be perfect, I could make mistakes, to err is only human. But my intention has been to find the objective truth. If you have any counter points to the points I have raised in this thread, I would welcome you to counter them with facts, instead of making subjective comments about my intentions. About what I think about 1971 killings, here are some previous posts in some threads I painstakingly searched for and found just so you know my feeling about 1971:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/bangla...-would-exceed-30-lac-mamun-7.html#post3137050
http://www.defence.pk/forums/bangla...would-exceed-30-lac-mamun-10.html#post3145364
http://www.defence.pk/forums/bangla...-east-pakistan-bangladesh-55.html#post2913075

I do not pay much attention to open Indian agent like shadow, my target is the silent majority, of which I come from, despite all the attempts of AL-ers and Indians that I am some kind of Jamati or Rezakar. If you belong to that majority, you should know that we have been victims of propaganda, our journalists have been compromised from 1960's and more so after 1971. Even people in advanced countries like USA and South Korea, two countries I know of first hand other than Bangladesh, people are being brainwashed for political needs of elites. We live in a poor country where another poor but much larger country have been controlling our self perception by putting a spin on every event to help their desired goals.

Even 7-8 years ago, my views of many of these events were completely different and "mainstream", but after I started digging, took an interest and connected the dots, like MBI Munshi, idune, skallagrim and many other posters, I now see a completely different picture. If you have the intellectual courage, I encourage you to do your own research and come to your own conclusions, instead of accepting and believing what you have been told by others.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Mattrixx

Making a country like Pakistan(1947) was a mistake. Now we just made our self out of it,its just the shukria.
We got nothing from that. If we had made a country by our own than the situation may be different.
Now conspiracy to make the way for our independence that should be treated as our glory. @kalu_miah

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## kalu_miah

Cross posted from another thread:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/bangla...jib-did-not-want-independence-bangladesh.html

Article

Sheikh Mujib: Pakistan and Bangladesh

School reading materials, history books and documents are being revised and rewritten with full governmental energy and huge money from the public exchequer sponsored with renewed vigor by the all powerful Bangladesh P.M. Sheikh Hasina everything for eulogizing her late father Mujibs credentials. In attaining the goal old materials, books, documents are being destroyed wherever they are in stock or in circulation in whatever form in Bangladesh that in her view might harm her fathers stature. The goal is very lofty in the sense that none of the present or future progeny must come across anything, any bit of information that might hurt the godly image of Hasinas father. I am not sure if she is up to destroying all other materials that lie outside Bangladesh in documentation centers and libraries, say, in London, Washington etc. The specific aim of the project as it appeared to me is that there is none in history, much less Major Zia, anybody worth in the history of founding of BANGLADESH in 1971.

I intend to limit the item in relevant facts in the 1971 episode not beyond for in the year Bangladesh had come into being as an independent country that I had the opportunity to get a lot of experience through to the whole period staying in Dhaka and in a job teaching in a government college as a mature class one post holder.

*On the 7th March 1971 Ramna Race Course mammoth meeting of the great Sheikh Mujib, I was an attendant from rather close to the rostrum the leader spoke for about 15 minutes or so. Before I went to the meeting to listen to the leaders critical discourse, I had occasion to talk to a friend of mine, an Engineer and Contractor moneyed man by profession, financier of the Awami League and a neighbor of the leader and M.P. from Narayanganj. We made a bet. Mujib must declare independence (UDI) on the day in the meeting. I was for yes, he no. I lost the bet, he won. The leader beyond expectation of many did not make the Unilateral Declaration of Independence (UDI). He ended his speech abruptly and left the meeting right then. Many and I were at a loss what the people do next.*

From the 7th evening to the 15th people passed days in suspense and rumors. On the 15th people started to see some light of hope when the Army President Yahya had arrived Dhaka from Islamabad for talks with the leader of East Pakistan. As the media reports went on day in and day out people were given understanding that progress made in talks in groups and also in one to one dialogue. But actual happenings and developments all were kept hidden from peoples knowledge. People lived in rumors. On the 23 March, Pakistans official Republic Day, Mujib went to meet the President in the Mintu Road Gonobhaban in his car flying proposed flag of Bangladesh. We knew afterwards that certain students group overenthusiastic about independence had posted the flag in his car. That was significant on two accounts. That was the day when any leader of the united country should have flown the Pakistan flag, and so flying the proposed Bangladesh flag instead went for meeting with Pakistan President was insult to both Pakistan and the President of Pakistan. Even so, as the students had forcibly posted the flag, Mujibs lapse could have been overlooked.

Next two days, people were in complete dark on the 24th and 25th in all wild rumors when at mid night the people of Dhaka were taken by surprise in mortar and gun fires. I returned from the Farm Gate area Tejgaon in myself driven new Fiat car at about 11 on the 25th night, had my late meal and went to bed in some agony. Soon I wake up in midst of unusual sounds and found through my 3rd floor flat window in the Industrial area of fire of shells over flying my government residential building. Right then I got all of my five young children down to the floor lying. No shell hit my building and none near about I could see in lights of fires of the shells. But the rest of the night we heard sounds of gun fires and blaze in some locations. We heard announcement of curfew in the Dhaka city as well. On the 26th it was curfew all day. On the 27th curfew was relaxed for three hours; I had to take in my car one Hindu colleague on his request to the Kawran Bazar grocery market who alone of his own was afraid to go for shopping being a Hindu.

In about a week, in midst of rumors though, I found many thing normal. We started to attend offices but not classes. The other happenings are well recorded and known by this time that I must not dwell at here.

We knew about Mujibs arrest and Major Zias name as he declared independence of Bangladesh at Kalurghat Radio substation in Chittagong nearly 200 miles away from Dhaka. Later on we knew about formal declaration of independence of Bangladesh by some elected MNAs and M.P.s of East Pakistan/Bangladesh of Awami League in the 1970 general election based on the LFO (Legal Framework Order) promulgated by the Army President of Pakistan in mid 1970. They formed a government in exile in Calcutta, the cabinet headed by Mujib as the President of the Peoples Republic of Bangladesh. The conspicuous lapse was that those who made Mujib the President had no consent of the person, much less any written direction of Mujib. On the contrary, he had the only direction left to Secretary Tajuddin before his arrest on the midnight of 25-26th March that they must enforce the 27th March Hartal or shut down action program. Further that Zias declaration of independence on the 26/27 March and repeated in the name of Mujib having had no nod whatsoever of Mujib for that was Zias broadness, on the one hand, and no scope of any communication with the then unknown Major far away, on the other.

*One may recall from available documentary evidence that soon after the Exile Government formed and sought blessings from the Indian P.M. Indira, she blasted the delegation of Tajuddin, Moustaque, Nazrul etc by posing the question on the where about the leader. She further commented, How can I believe the leader/ General who after declaring war surrendered to the enemy? Even so, Delhi did everything possible to keep alive the Government in Exile, trained the Guerilla, armed them with weapons and ammunitions to attack installations etc in East Pakistan and ultimately made armed aggression on the 3rd December 1971. Indira, however, had her suspicion and reservations about Mujib if he was in full agreement with the Government in Exile, war and all that followed. The first test of bitterness she had with Mujib when he refused to take for his journey from London to Dhaka on board an Indian Air plane that Indira had offered and Mujib declined to accept. Instead he took a British Air Force plane to fly from London to Dhaka on the 10th January 1972. But on way to Dhaka, he made a stopover in Delhi for huge felicitation he was offered by the Delhi bosses. Al these are more or less known facts of history.*

*Now I would mention here some crucial facts that though got in record outside Bangladesh in London, in particular, but almost unknown and unrecorded here in any Bangladesh documents.
During his detention in West Pakistan in 1971 he was tried for treason against the State of Pakistan. His main lawyer was A K Brohi, the world renowned professional and man of highest integrity. He left some facts before his death, particularly to an Editor of a fortnightly, Impact International. During my stay in London for about eight years I got to know the editor Mr Faruqi. Brohi kept on record with him two facts. One, Mujib did believe in one and united Pakistan and was not at all for independent Bangladesh, and two, during the 1971 war Mujib offered to the President Yahya to permit him to use the Pakistan media to condemn Indian aggression on East Pakistan and to appeal to all East Pakistani to defend East Pakistan against Indian aggression (See Impact International, 25th September, 1987, .p.19). Before publishing the news as it was on request from Mr Brohi then on his last fatal medical treatment in London Mr Faruqi consulted me if he should have at all published the news as that was. On my clear nod he did.*

*On arriving Dhaka Tejgaon Airport on the 10th January 1972 in midst of immense pleasure of heroic welcome, while he was coming out from the Tarmac leaning on shoulders of Tajuddin and Moustaque as the then student leader Aftab Ahmad (innovator of the Joy Bangla slogan) later on Professor in DU, as he wrote in an article I came across that the leader at the Tarmac rebuked Tajuddin by name, TAJUDDIN SHESH PARJANTYA TOMRA PAKISTAN BHENGE DILE You, Tajuddin, at last have broken Pakistan into pieces! Aftab did not miss the rebuke though that was in low voice as he was very close to them walking down out of the Tarmac. That comment or rebuke was not palatable to young Aftab for being an active freedom fighter of 1971 war.*

Later on in mid 1972 Aftab went away forming along with other dissenting lots the JSD and continued editing the daily GONOKONTHO. I came to know him not until in London doing Ph.D. in early 1980s. We had some close relation again beginning in Dhaka in 1990s that we maintained until his tragic assassination not yet probed worth of anything in his DU residence a few years ago.

*Mujibs distancing from Tajuddin within a short time was clear to all. He was not only removed from the Ministry but also ended up in prison. Mujib never in three and a half years in office cared to visit Tajuddins Exile Government capital Mujibnagar in Kustia. That Mujib and then Hasina as well not only dishonored Tajuddin but his younger brother Afsar Uddin in her first term (1996-2001) removing him from the Ministry unceremoniously and now Tajuddins son Sohel, M. P. recently blasted clearly on his leaving Bangladesh latest a few days ago. Such dishonoring the brilliant freedom fighter and pioneer of the independent Bangladesh movement in 1971 had two main reasons. Tajuddin was committed to socialist Bangladesh that Mujib distasted. The other and possibly more important issue was that the dynastic aim Mujib had and pursued determinedly now by Hasina has had no place for any contender in person, much less any other family.*

*Bangladesh freedom struggle and so also the Pakistan movement both had the main goals for peoples liberation, democratic governance, equity and social justice in sovereign identity and entity. Mujib was involved in both movements of the Bengal people, for Bangladesh as the main leader and for Pakistan as a young student worker in Calcutta. Unfortunately, despite peoples love for him and enormous sacrifices made, Mujib betrayed both, possibly, Bangladesh much more through his opportunism, recklessness of not making UDI in due time, leaving people in utter confusion of the unprepared war giving India to take full advantage of, corruption ridden administration, extra judicial killings of thousands by the unconstitutional Rakhsmi Bahini in reality controlled by the Indian R&AW, his own party men made famine deaths of thousands, if not lakhs, destroying democracy and imposition of one party rule having no mandate of the people, etc. etc. Not for all his sins but for some in total betrayal of the people, he was duly paid in his coins on the 15th August 1975. Thus he confirmed his place in historical records as the Bengals second Mir Zafar of the twentieth century, the first one went ahead of him nearly two hundred years ago in 1757 A.D. No amount of massive propaganda by his daughter Hasina wasting huge money from the public exchequer is going to let Muijib have a permanent bright image than that of Mir Zafar or historic national betrayer. In history, Hasina has to remain answerable for the wastage of huge public money she has been recklessly misappropriating for refurbishing the otherwise image of national betrayer since January 2009.*


----------



## kalu_miah

@asad71 Bhai, I need your kind opinion on this issue.

Please note above article. I am seeing some contradicting version of events that led up to 25th March 1971.

1. Some say Sheikh Mujib was involved in Agartala Conspiracy, at least indirectly, together with Indian Intelligence for some years before the trial in 1968, others say that he was not and people are using a dead person who cannot speak for himself, to legitimize their own involvement in Agartala conspiracy, I think you have this opinion
2. From above Article, it seems that Mujib never had plans to declare UDI (Unilateral Declaration of Independence), as he never wanted to break Pakistan and create independent Bangladesh, instead he wanted full autonomy of East Pakistan. When he was released from jail in Pakistan. Bhutto talked with him about still retaining some tie with the eastern wing:
http://dawn.com/2012/06/10/a-leaf-from-history-mujib-begins-a-new-life/

Mujib gave him no answer till he arrived at London. At the airport he had some discussions with someone (I forget his name) and in that discussion he was still talking about autonomy, probably considering Bhutto's proposal, before he was briefed about what went on in Bangladesh in the 9 months since he went to jail. After briefing, he understood the full situation about independent Bangladesh and sent answer to Bhutto that confederation was no longer possible.

I think your version of events match with version no. 2, if not, please give us a full account of how it was with Mujib. That will clarify a lot of issues about the history of that period.

The 2nd thing I find puzzling is Bhashani's role in all this. Bhashani, it looks like, staunchly believed in secession and independence of East Pakistan, but not with India's help. It was his 11 point movement that brought the fall of Ayub's govt. in 1969 and the release of Mujib from Agartala case. The result of this movement was that Mujib became the most popular young leader for East Pakistan. While Bhashani boycotted the election in 1970, Mujib's AL participated and got land slide victory. Much of that credit goes to Bhashani it seems.

Bengali Nationalism and Anti-Ayub Movement : A Study of the Role of Students | Mahboob Hussain - Academia.edu
h1p4
Six point movement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Dak Bangla Intelligence Scan : Bangladesh: Moulana Bhashani and the people

In summary it seems that Bhashani was a more far sighted leader and thus foresaw the separation of two wings of Pakistan and openly advocated for it, but Mujib held on to the idea of autonomy till his release from jail from Pakistan. Bhashani remained anti-India till his death, while Mujib was pro-India and had been working with Indians long before 1971, although he never trusted Indians fully. And it was Bhashani and his 11 point movement that made Mujib popular and it was Bhashani's election boycott that gave Mujib and his AL almost all electoral seats in East Pakistan in 1970.

But Bhashani was too old and could not finish what he started it seems. I discuss that in a different thread:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/bangla...-politicians-history-bangladesh-landmass.html


----------



## asad71

kalu_miah said:


> @asad71 Bhai, I need your kind opinion on this issue.
> 
> Please note above article. I am seeing some contradicting version of events that led up to 25th March 1971.
> 
> 1. Some say Sheikh Mujib was involved in Agartala Conspiracy, at least indirectly, together with Indian Intelligence for some years before the trial in 1968, others say that he was not and people are using a dead person who cannot speak for himself, to legitimize their own involvement in Agartala conspiracy, I think you have this opinion
> 2. From above Article, it seems that Mujib never had plans to declare UDI (Unilateral Declaration of Independence), as he never wanted to break Pakistan and create independent Bangladesh, instead he wanted full autonomy of East Pakistan. When he was released from jail in Pakistan. Bhutto talked with him about still retaining some tie with the eastern wing:
> A leaf from history: Mujib begins a new life | DAWN.COM
> 
> Mujib gave him no answer till he arrived at London. At the airport he had some discussions with someone (I forget his name) and in that discussion he was still talking about autonomy, probably considering Bhutto's proposal, before he was briefed about what went on in Bangladesh in the 9 months since he went to jail. After briefing, he understood the full situation about independent Bangladesh and sent answer to Bhutto that confederation was no longer possible.
> 
> I think your version of events match with version no. 2, if not, please give us a full account of how it was with Mujib. That will clarify a lot of issues about the history of that period.
> 
> The 2nd thing I find puzzling is Bhashani's role in all this. Bhashani, it looks like, staunchly believed in secession and independence of East Pakistan, but not with India's help. It was his 11 point movement that brought the fall of Ayub's govt. in 1969 and the release of Mujib from Agartala case. The result of this movement was that Mujib became the most popular young leader for East Pakistan. While Bhashani boycotted the election in 1970, Mujib's AL participated and got land slide victory. Much of that credit goes to Bhashani it seems.
> 
> Bengali Nationalism and Anti-Ayub Movement : A Study of the Role of Students | Mahboob Hussain - Academia.edu
> h1p4
> Six point movement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Dak Bangla Intelligence Scan : Bangladesh: Moulana Bhashani and the people
> 
> In summary it seems that Bhashani was a more far sighted leader and thus foresaw the separation of two wings of Pakistan and openly advocated for it, but Mujib held on to the idea of autonomy till his release from jail from Pakistan. Bhashani remained anti-India till his death, while Mujib was pro-India and had been working with Indians long before 1971, although he never trusted Indians fully. And it was Bhashani and his 11 point movement that made Mujib popular and it was Bhashani's election boycott that gave Mujib and his AL almost all electoral seats in East Pakistan in 1970.
> 
> But Bhashani was too old and could not finish what he started it seems. I discuss that in a different thread:
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/bangla...-politicians-history-bangladesh-landmass.html




1. In truth, till the day he was gunned down, Sheikh had believed in The Two Nation Theory - that the Muslims of Hindustan were a different nation. This was tested to the extreme when we found him steadfast in this belief in spite of the immense pressure exerted on him to declare UDI on 07 March 1971. Like the seasoned politician he was he had delivered an outstanding speech full of jugglery of words and covert contradictions - not forgetting to end end with the slogans " Joy Bangla, Joy Pakistan, Pakistan Zindabad". His famous Six Point Program was nothing but a return to the Lahore Resolution, 23 March 1940. 

2. Agaratala Conspiracy could hardly be called a conspiracy unless ISI Chief Akbar made this into one to interdict Sheikh's political progress. In the bargain, this botched up ISI counter-conspiracy catapulted Sheikh into The Leader of the Bengalees. Henceforth Sheikh was the Ceaser of E Bengal / BD till his death.

3. Hardly anything has been written or spoken publicly about this conspiracy - because there was hardly anything of material to talk about or write about. At best it was a low level effort by RAW contacted people to begin something. FYI, at this point in time RAW was also raw like ISI in these enterprises. Steward Mujib of PIA was apparently the chief or the spokesman of the group that had sneaked into Agartala through a border that was practically unguarded back then.

4. No, Sheikh was not at all involved in this conspiracy. He has never claimed this himself. However, the conspirators would have hoped to rope him in as an umbrella if they were successful. Gen Akbar found it convenient to construct the group of conspirators with few EBDO'ed / dismissed civil servants who were obviously anti-govt, and some junior military officers who would at best air their grievances loudly. 

5. Lieut Shawkat Ali, Ordnance was one such. He is the only person who has come out openly after all these decades to claim that Sheikh was involved with them. If considered in the context of his advanced age and position in BAL, it is not difficult to understand why he is saying this at this particular time. Already the Dy Speaker he has ambitions to go further upwards. Hasina was never enamored of him owing to his ant-BAL and pro-BAKSHAL position when Zia had opened up the parties. Agartala gives him mileage in BAL and with India.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Zabaniyah

madx said:


> Making a country like Pakistan(1947) was a mistake. @kalu_miah



You mean you'd prefer to live in India rather? 

Without Jinnah's leadership, and without the All India Muslim League, Bangladesh would never have had existed in the first place.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Zabaniyah

asad71 said:


> 4. No, Sheikh was not at all involved in this conspiracy. He has never claimed this himself. However, the conspirators would have hoped to rope him in as an umbrella if they were successful. Gen Akbar found it convenient to construct the group of conspirators with few EBDO'ed / dismissed civil servants who were obviously anti-govt, and some junior military officers who would at best air their grievances loudly.
> 
> 5. Lieut Shawkat Ali, Ordnance was one such. He is the only person who has come out openly after all these decades to claim that Sheikh was involved with them. If considered in the context of his advanced age and position in BAL, it is not difficult to understand why he is saying this at this particular time. Already the Dy Speaker he has ambitions to go further upwards. Hasina was never enamored of him owing to his ant-BAL and pro-BAKSHAL position when Zia had opened up the parties. Agartala gives him mileage in BAL and with India.



Here are Col. Ali's own words just for clarification 


> The name &#8220;Agartala Conspiracy Case&#8221;, is a misnomer. The actual name of the case filed against us was State vs Sheikh Mujibur Rahman and Others. A total of 35 accused, including Sheikh Mujib.
> 
> The name of Agartala became associated with the case due to a small incident. A two member delegation from our group went to Agartala, India, to meet Indian authorities to discuss with them our plans and ask them if they could aid us.
> 
> The accusation against us was 100 paragraphs long one, out of which only one paragraph was devoted to this tiny event. Until recently it was believed this case was a ploy to get rid of Sheikh Mujib, when in reality it was a case filed on very concrete and true accusations. We did conspire for secession of East Pakistan! The accusations were 100 percent true.


In Conversation with Col (retd) Shawkat Ali « Dhaka Courier

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Vinod2070

It was not a conspiracy any more than the two nation theory was.

It was just the pressing need of the time. Something inevitable.

We are proud to have helped the Bangladeshis achieve their independence. Good luck for your future.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## kalu_miah

asad71 said:


> 1. In truth, till the day he was gunned down, Sheikh had believed in The Two Nation Theory - that the Muslims of Hindustan were a different nation. This was tested to the extreme when we found him steadfast in this belief in spite of the immense pressure exerted on him to declare UDI on 07 March 1971. Like the seasoned politician he was he had delivered an outstanding speech full of jugglery of words and covert contradictions - not forgetting to end end with the slogans " Joy Bangla, Joy Pakistan, Pakistan Zindabad". His famous Six Point Program was nothing but a return to the Lahore Resolution, 23 March 1940.
> 
> 2. Agaratala Conspiracy could hardly be called a conspiracy unless ISI Chief Akbar made this into one to interdict Sheikh's political progress. In the bargain, this botched up ISI counter-conspiracy catapulted Sheikh into The Leader of the Bengalees. Henceforth Sheikh was the Ceaser of E Bengal / BD till his death.
> 
> 3. Hardly anything has been written or spoken publicly about this conspiracy - because there was hardly anything of material to talk about or write about. At best it was a low level effort by RAW contacted people to begin something. FYI, at this point in time RAW was also raw like ISI in these enterprises. Steward Mujib of PIA was apparently the chief or the spokesman of the group that had sneaked into Agartala through a border that was practically unguarded back then.
> 
> 4. No, Sheikh was not at all involved in this conspiracy. He has never claimed this himself. However, the conspirators would have hoped to rope him in as an umbrella if they were successful. Gen Akbar found it convenient to construct the group of conspirators with few EBDO'ed / dismissed civil servants who were obviously anti-govt, and some junior military officers who would at best air their grievances loudly.
> 
> 5. Lieut Shawkat Ali, Ordnance was one such. He is the only person who has come out openly after all these decades to claim that Sheikh was involved with them. If considered in the context of his advanced age and position in BAL, it is not difficult to understand why he is saying this at this particular time. Already the Dy Speaker he has ambitions to go further upwards. Hasina was never enamored of him owing to his ant-BAL and pro-BAKSHAL position when Zia had opened up the parties. Agartala gives him mileage in BAL and with India.



Thanks for your excellent post. That pretty much clears it up. Shawkat Ali is a shameless liar and his lie that Sheikh Mujib was actually involved in this Agartala scheme, created this whole confusion. Like you said, I now fully believe that he is lying for political advantage, just like many politicians throughout the world.

*So my current impression, looking at the information I have uncovered so far is that Sheikh Mujib was not involved in this treason case, he did not commit treason.*

This means that Pakistan military rulers at the time may have used a small and minor Agartala case to frame Sheikh Mujib, but eventually had to free him after 11 point mass agitation led by Bhashani. So essentially it was a politically motivated case to suppress the call for autonomy, that backfired and catapulted Sheikh Mujib to peak of popularity and allowed him to win landslide election victory in 1971.



Vinod2070 said:


> It was not a conspiracy any more than the two nation theory was.
> 
> It was just the pressing need of the time. Something inevitable.
> 
> We are proud to have helped the Bangladeshis achieve their independence. Good luck for your future.



Agartala scheme was an incident of treason, plain and simple. Sheikh Mujib was not involved in it. But the case was filed to frame and suppress some political leaders by Pakistan military rulers at the time. Agartala scheme, a RAW project, had no connection to the independence of Bangladesh, a result of a war of liberation initiated as a reaction to Operation Searchlight army crackdown on 25th March, 1971.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## animelive

I just can't believe that they let him go for such a huge conspiracy. It was probably a big Fail attempt by the political leaders

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## kalu_miah

animelive said:


> I just can't believe that they let him go for such a huge conspiracy. It was probably a big Fail attempt by *the political leaders*



By Ayub Khan admin you mean?


----------



## Vinod2070

kalu_miah said:


> Agartala scheme was an incident of treason, plain and simple. Sheikh Mujib was not involved in it. But the case was filed to frame and suppress some political leaders by Pakistan military rulers at the time. Agartala scheme, a RAW project had no connection to the independence of Bangladesh, a result of a war of liberation initiated as a reaction to Operation Searchlight army crackdown on 25th March, 1971.



That's what you think and you are entitled to it.

The vast majority of Bangadeshis are happy with their independence despite all those sacrifices.

Regarding treason, that depends on who is looking.

For us, the two nation theory folks were traitors.

For Pakistanis, the Bangladesh demanding people were traitors.

For Bangladeshis, the PA was a occupying brutal force and the Razakaars and Jamaatis are traitors.

All of these are correct options for someone or the other.


----------



## kalu_miah

Vinod2070 said:


> That's what you think and you are entitled to it.
> 
> The vast majority of Bangadeshis are happy with their independence despite all those sacrifices.
> 
> Regarding treason, that depends on who is looking.
> 
> For us, the two nation theory folks were traitors.
> 
> For Pakistanis, the Bangladesh demanding people were traitors.
> 
> For Bangladeshis, the PA was a occupying brutal force and the Razakaars and Jamaatis are traitors.
> 
> All of these are correct options for someone or the other.



It does not depend on who is looking. A treason, is a treason, is a treason, there is no getting around it, under the established law at the time, recognized as valid by all population of then East Pakistan. Those people who conspired with RAW had committed treason. Sheikh Mujib played no role in this act of treason.

Bangladesh came into being with the Declaration of Independence made by Zia on 26th March, 1971, as a reaction to the commencement of Operation Searchlight, the brutal crackdown you are referring to and before that date any act of conspiracy with a recognized enemy state govt. was an act of treason.


----------



## Vinod2070

kalu_miah said:


> *It does not depend on who is looking*. A treason, is a treason, is a treason, there is no getting around it, under the established law at the time, recognized as valid by all population of then East Pakistan. Those people who conspired with RAW had committed treason. Sheikh Mujib played no role in this act of treason.
> 
> Bangladesh came into being with the Declaration of Independence made by Zia on 26th March, 1971, as a reaction to the commencement of Operation Searchlight, the brutal crackdown you are referring to and before that date any act of conspiracy with a recognized enemy state govt. was an act of treason.



It does.

Many astute Bangladeshis had understood that they will need to find their own destiny separate from the Western wing. They had to make a start and if meant a covert start, so be it.

Most independence movements had to be covert by necessity.

Treason against the government of the day is not the same thing as treason against the country and its people. And if the (remote, unelected, dictatorial) government is one that looks down at the people, throwing it out is all the more justified.


----------



## kalu_miah

I do not think we have wasted time looking at the history of our nation in those critical years. Now see the face of the treasonous liar who has created unnecessary confusion and soul searching on our part by falsely claiming that Sheikh Mujib was in his team:






Col (retd) Shawkat Ali


----------



## animelive

kalu_miah said:


> By Ayub Khan admin you mean?



Unfortunately, we will never know.


----------



## Vinod2070

Soul searching is required for a nation to find its soul.

It can only remove the existing confusion, never create confusion.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## SHAMK9

madx said:


> Making a country like Pakistan(1947) was a mistake.


Speak for yourself and your country


----------



## kalu_miah

Vinod2070 said:


> It does.
> 
> Many astute Bangladeshis had understood that they will need to find their own destiny separate from the Western wing. They had to make a start and if meant a covert start, so be it.
> 
> Most independence movements had to be covert by necessity.
> 
> Treason against the government of the day is not the same thing as treason against the country and its people. And if the (remote, unelected, dictatorial) government is one that looks down at the people, throwing it out is all the more justified.



Many leaders wanted independence, such as Bhashani, as I have found out and I respect him for that, specially for not getting India's help, before our Declaration of Independence. In fact, he was arrested and held incommunicado for the entire duration of the war by RAW after he crossed over to India in April 1971.

Agartala case was not an independence movement, it was a simple a case of treason by some unscrupulous desperadoes who conspired with RAW, the intelligence wing of an enemy country at the time.

Nonviolent mass agitation the likes of which AL and other political parties engaged in East Pakistan against military rule were perfectly justified. I have no issues with those. My only issues are with people who conspired with an enemy state and committed treason and are now trying to make them into heroes by falsely claiming that Sheikh Mujib was in their team.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Vinod2070

kalu_miah said:


> Many leader wanted independence, such as Bhashani, as I have found out and I respect him for that, specially for not getting India's help, before our Declaration of Independence. In fact, he was arrested and held incommunicado for the entire duration of the war by RAW after he crossed over to India in April 1971.
> 
> Agartala case was not an independence movement, it was a simple a case of treason by some unscrupulous desperadoes who conspired with RAW, the intelligence wing of an enemy country at the time.
> 
> Nonviolent mass agitation the likes of which AL and other political parties engaged in East Pakistan against military rule were perfectly justified. I have no issues with those. My only issues are with people who conspired with an enemy state and committed treason and are now trying to make them into heroes by falsely claiming that Sheikh Mujib was in their team.



Yes, for you India may be the enemy.

For some others, it was an ally against a far bigger enemy.

And they are heroes because of how the events transpired. It is always thus, isn't it?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## kalu_miah

Vinod2070 said:


> Yes, for you India may be the enemy.
> 
> For some others, it was an ally against a far bigger enemy.
> 
> And they are heroes because of how the events transpired. It is always thus, isn't it?



India became an official ally since our declaration of independence on March 26, 1971 and we have received help from India during the war. No one questions that. But it became an enemy state soon after the end of war, as it started meddling in internal affairs of a sovereign state.


----------



## Vinod2070

kalu_miah said:


> India became an official ally since our declaration of independence on March 26, 1971 and we have received help from India during the war. No one questions that.



The alliance would have started some time back. It was only sealed on this date.



> But it became an enemy state soon after the end of war, as it started meddling in internal affairs of a sovereign state.



Again your perspective. We never look at Bangladesh as an enemy. We wish it well.

This "meddling" business is quite subjective and prone to wild exaggerations. Not sure how we can discuss it objectively.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## kalu_miah

Vinod2070 said:


> The alliance would have started some time back. It was only sealed on this date.
> 
> Again your perspective. We never look at Bangladesh as an enemy. We wish it well.
> 
> This "meddling" business is quite subjective and prone to wild exaggerations. Not sure how we can discuss it objectively.



You cannot start alliance with an enemy state govt. without committing treason. The cutoff date is the date of Declaration of Independence:
Declaration of independence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Meddling is what your govt. does with its intelligence wing and hides its tracks using media propaganda. It is for you the Indian public to find out and uncover your govt. wrong doing and demand to put a stop to it, not cheer lead the govt. in its wrong doing and helping it to hide its tracks.


----------



## Vinod2070

kalu_miah said:


> You cannot start alliance with an enemy state govt. without committing treason. The cutoff date is the date of Declaration of Independence:
> Declaration of independence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



India was not an enemy of East Pakistan or later Bangladesh.

You would know that East Pakistan was not well defended. They said that "the defense of the East lay in the West". India didn't attack the East even in 1965.

Again, the leaders of Bangladesh decided to ally with India as that was the only way they could have secured the independence. They were successful and therefor the traitors are those who oppose them.

If they had failed, they would be the traitors. It has always been so.



> Meddling is what your govt. does with its intelligence wing and hides its tracks using media propaganda. *It is for you the Indian public to find out and uncover your govt. wrong doing* and demand to put a stop to it, not cheer lead the govt. in its wrong doing and helping it to hide its tracks.



I will do it once you present a convincing proof and not wild eyed accusations with nothing to back them.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## kalu_miah

Vinod2070 said:


> India was not an enemy of East Pakistan or later Bangladesh.
> 
> You would know that East Pakistan was not well defended. They said that "the defense of the East lay in the West". India didn't attack the East even in 1965.
> 
> Again, the leaders of Bangladesh decided to ally with India as that was the only way they could have secured the independence. They were successful and therefor the traitors are those who oppose them.
> 
> If they had failed, they would be the traitors. It has always been so.
> 
> I will do it once you present a convincing proof and not wild eyed accusations with nothing to back them.



We had one country and two wings, not two different countries. So India could not be an enemy of West Pakistan and friend of East Pakistan.

Bangladesh started in 26th March 1971 and I have no problem with their getting help from India, as we had no other option. Some Jamati's or any other who did not agree and opposed Bangladeshi leaders can be called traitors, no question about it, but unless they committed war crimes, they did not commit any crime for holding such views.

If they had failed in getting independence, yes all these freedom fighters would be called traitors.

Follow this thread for evidence of Indian meddling:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/bangla...olvement-bangladesh-land-mass-1947-today.html


----------



## animelive

Vinod2070 said:


> India was not an enemy of East Pakistan or later Bangladesh.



I will have to disagree, there was no East and West Pakistan, Pakistan was as a whole and India was our enemy. But yes, if we stayed with Pakistan, in the coming wars with India, we would have been annihilated and maybe even made into a vassal state because the military might was in the west wing(another sign of non-equality for which we broke off), so it was all for the good.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Mattrixx

SHAMK9 said:


> Speak for yourself and your country



Im meaning my country not yours. The country which was made in 1947 was impractical. 
With the thousand km distance between the two part. There were clear differences of 
culture between two parts. After coming out of british ruler west pakistani leaders imposed 
us another colonial rule. They didnt like us. They didnt agreed our empowerment. So 
breaking of the country was inevitable. So rather than making this country they could 
establish 2 different muslim countries. So where Im talking of ur country Im just taking 
of our part of land which was one day shucked with u.
I think pk and bd have good relation and we have no hostility 



Loki said:


> You mean you'd prefer to live in India rather?
> 
> Without Jinnah's leadership, and without the All India Muslim League, Bangladesh would never have had existed in the first place.



Are u forgetting our great leader Fazlul haq. He proposed to have different countries with muslim majorities.
If Bangladesh was made in first place rather than all those political conflicts and war with the west our 
future could be much more enriched. I think we just lost by going with pakistan. If we started our own 
from the first day who knows we could have got a bigger land. With asham and some eastern part of india.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Zabaniyah

madx said:


> Are u forgetting our great leader Fazlul haq. He proposed to have different countries with muslim majorities.



And how did his proposal go? Did it receive enough support? Sources please. 



> *If Bangladesh was made in first place rather than all those political conflicts and war with the west our
> future could be much more enriched. I think we just lost by going with pakistan. If we started our own
> from the first day who knows we could have got a bigger land. With asham and some eastern part of india.*



And the Hindu-dominated Congress would hand over north east India to us for free? 

Some Hindu folks back then were still mad at the fact that East Pakistan got a hold of Chittagong Hill Tracts, and not India. 

And you are thinking that Bangladesh can already be established in 1947 under those conditions?  

Like it or not, the creation of Pakistan will remain as a significant, and necessary part of Bangladesh's history and identity, just as the post-71' events did.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Mattrixx

Loki said:


> *And how did his proposal go? Did it receive enough support? Sources please. *
> 
> 
> 
> And the Hindu-dominated Congress would hand over north east India to us for free?
> 
> Some Hindu folks back then were still mad at the fact that East Pakistan got a hold of Chittagong Hill Tracts, and not India.
> 
> And you are thinking that Bangladesh can already be established in 1947 under those conditions?
> 
> Like it or not, the creation of Pakistan will remain as a significant, and necessary part of Bangladesh's history and identity, just as the post-71' events did.



*Learn some more of lahore resolution. After propsal of fazlull haq all member agreed to create only one muslim country.*

On the basis of the above mentioned ideas of the Quaid, A. K. Fazl-ul-Haq, the then Chief Minister of Bengal, moved the historical resolution which has since come to be known as LahoreResolution or Pakistan Resolution.
The Resolution declared: "No constitutional plan would be workable or acceptable tothe Muslims unless geographical contiguous units are demarcated into regionswhich should be so constituted with such territorial readjustments as may benecessary. That *the areas in which the Muslims are numerically in majority as in theNorth-Western and Eastern zones of India should be grouped to constitute independent states in which the constituent units shall be autonomous andsovereign".*


The Resolution was passed on March 24. It laid down only the principles, with the details left to be worked out at a future date. It was made a part of the All India Muslim League's constitutionin 1941. It was on the basis of this resolution that in 1946 the Muslim League decided to go for one state for the Muslims, instead of two.
Having passed the Pakistan Resolution, the Muslims of India changed their ultimategoal. Instead of seeking alliance with the Hindu community, they set out on a pathwhose destination was a separate homeland for the Muslims of India.


Lahore Resolution 1940


----------



## kalu_miah

animelive said:


> I will have to disagree, there was no East and West Pakistan, Pakistan was as a whole and India was our enemy. But yes, if we stayed with Pakistan, in the coming wars with India, we would have been annihilated and maybe even made into a *vassal state* because the military might was in the west wing(another sign of non-equality for which we broke off), *so it was all for the good.*



- the two wings of Pakistan were bound to seperate (Mounbatten gave it 25 years, Abul Kalam Azad also predicted it)
- Western Wing racially feels superior to most South Asians to their east and south, so just like Sikhs and Kashmiri's it is natural for them to seek a separate nation. The truly unique case is East Bengal Muslims who wanted a separate nation (race/ethnicity I believe is the hidden factor that is not mentioned but it plays a role as important as religion, people do not want to admit it though)
- it is because of this racial/ethnic factor that Western wing could never accept a majority rule by the Eastern wing
- once the two wings separated, the Western wing is continuing their long struggle to keep India at bay, with help of other powers to balance this threat (first it was the US, lately increasingly its China as China is slowly replacing US as no. 1 super power and India is getting closer to the US)
- we on the other hand became a vassal state, like Bhashani stated, after 1971, we are now half independent. We are trying to break free, but due to pro-India people among us, we are failing every time, because we are not being able to identify these pro-India people among us and to realize what damage they are doing to our sovereignty (note Pakistan never suffered this fate, because they never had a pro-India Gopalgonj clan like we do)
- if we want to really achieve sovereignty, and get out from under Indian boot, we need to make a bee line for other powers to bring a balance and make sure that pro-India politicians never again come to power in sovereign Bangladesh
Balance of power (international relations) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Like Bhashani, I am also of opinion, that independence is good for us. But perhaps we could do it without the trauma and killings in 1971, which was initiated by some not so bright officers in Pakistan Army, despite warning and reservation by others. That would not destroy the 1000 year long close relationship we had with these two large Muslim blocs of population, Indian Muslims (non-Bengali) and Pakistan Muslims. When we were part of one empire or country, we could unite and act in unison. But partition had destroyed the unity by drawing borders and then 1971 trauma destroyed that unity and feeling of trust further. Knowing the long glorious history of Muslims in South Asia, that makes me feel sad. That feeling of trust and fellow feeling we had, prompted us to believe in 2 nation theory. Indira is partly correct when she said that in 1971 she buried 2 nation theory in Bay of Bengal. Mujib unknowingly created a tinderbox, but the tinderbox was ignited by some others:
Operation Searchlight - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


> Prior to the launch of the operation, a final meeting was held in GHQ.[clarification needed] Martial Law Administrator of East Pakistan and unified Commander of Pakistan's Eastern Military High Command *Vice-Admiral Syed Mohammad Ahsan objected to the pre-planned operation*.[14] *Air Commodore Mitty Masud also objected to the operation, fearing that violence would provoke East-Pakistan into more violence*. However, under pressure during the meeting from Pakistan's Army and Air Force's general, *General Yahya Khan gave orders to his Army and Air Force commanders to launch the operation.[14] Disheartened and isolated, Admiral Ahsan resigned, in protest, from his position as Martial Law Administrator, unified commander of Eastern Military High Command, and the navy.[14] With operation came in effect, Air-Commodore Mitty Masud too resigned from the Air Force and as Commander of Eastern Air Force Command (EAFC)*.[14]

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Vinod2070

kalu_miah said:


> *We had one country and two wings, not two different countries. So India could not be an enemy of West Pakistan and friend of East Pakistan.*
> 
> Bangladesh started in 26th March 1971 and I have no problem with their getting help from India, as we had no other option. Some Jamati's or any other who did not agree and opposed Bangladeshi leaders can be called traitors, no question about it, but unless they committed war crimes, they did not commit any crime for holding such views.
> 
> If they had failed in getting independence, yes all these freedom fighters would be called traitors.
> 
> Follow this thread for evidence of Indian meddling:
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/bangla...olvement-bangladesh-land-mass-1947-today.html





animelive said:


> I will have to disagree, *there was no East and West Pakistan, Pakistan was as a whole and India was our enemy.* But yes, if we stayed with Pakistan, in the coming wars with India, we would have been annihilated and maybe even made into a vassal state because the military might was in the west wing(another sign of non-equality for which we broke off), so it was all for the good.



Yes it was one country with two wings, but the two wings were not having the same importance for those who ran things in then Pakistan (dominated completely by West Pakistan).

For them, they were the mainland and BD was more or less like a small neglected colony, despite having the majority population. *You must know that Western Pakistan left the East undefended as a bargaining chip, in exchange for Kashmir.*

Of course, we had no interest in the bargain.

Will check the link. Thanks.


----------



## kalu_miah

Vinod2070 said:


> Yes it was one country with two wings, but the two wings were not having the same importance for those who ran things in then Pakistan (dominated completely by West Pakistan).
> 
> For them, they were the mainland and BD was more or less like a small neglected colony, despite having the majority population. *You must know that Western Pakistan left the East undefended as a bargaining chip, in exchange for Kashmir.*
> 
> Of course, we had no interest in the bargain.
> 
> Will check the link. Thanks.



But back then, both wings of Pakistan were a sovereign country, what difference existed between two wings, that was for us to settle, and not for you to decide or meddle in. It was purely an internal matter.

Posters like you who cannot distinguish this simple fact, shows that when it comes to having way with your geo-political interest such as breaking another country that is a threat to your country, you do not respect sovereignty of a country. You did not do it then, nor do you do it now, as Indian govt. meddle in internal politics in Bangladesh, always taking side with AL, using all kinds of made up excuses like protecting Hindu minority and preventing Islamic extremism.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Vinod2070

kalu_miah said:


> But back then, both wings of Pakistan were a sovereign country, what difference existed between two wings, that was for us settle, and not for you to decide or meddle in. It was purely an internal matter.



Yes, we were invited by you (meaning the BD leaders who were later chosen by a majority of the country).

It ceased to be an internal matter at some point which both of us know.



> Posters like you who cannot distinguish this simple fact, shows that when it comes to having way with your geo-political interest such as breaking another country that is a threat to your country, you do not respect sovereignty of a country. You did not do it then, nor do you do it now, as Indian govt. meddle in internal politics in Bangladesh, always taking side with AL, using all kinds of made up excuses like protecting Hindu minority and preventing Islamic extremism.



Not really. We respect everyone's sovereignty. We just want to live in peace and harmony with everyone else in the world. We don't think any group in the world deserves to be ruled by any other.

Live and let live. And move on.


----------



## kalu_miah

Vinod2070 said:


> Yes, we were invited by you (meaning the BD leaders who were later chosen by a majority of the country).
> 
> It ceased to be an internal matter at some point which both of us know.
> 
> Not really. We respect everyone's sovereignty. We just want to live in peace and harmony with everyone else in the world. We don't think any group in the world deserves to be ruled by any other.
> 
> Live and let live. And move on.



Yes, after we declared independence on 26th March, 1971, we sought your help, we had every right to as a sovereign country. But your meddling did not start on that date, it started in 1950's. Perhaps it was tit for tat, that is what many says now. But people in our landmass had to pay the price with blood.

You do not respect sovereignty. That is the crux of the matter. If you have access to classified files of RAW, I would welcome you to go through them. We know what is happening in Bangladesh. Every neighbor of India knows what is happening inside their country. You need to reign in a rogue entity and foreign policy that is driving it. This policy is shooting at your own feet. It will buy you long term grief.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Vinod2070

kalu_miah said:


> Yes, after we declared independence on 26th March, 1971, we sought your help, we had every right to as a sovereign country. But your meddling did not start on that date, it started in 1950's. Perhaps it was tit for tat, that is what many says now. But people in our landmass had to pay the price with blood.



People paid in blood not because of us but because Tikka Khan and his ilk thought that "once we kill 3 million of them, the rest will be eating out of our hands".

They looked down on the darker, smaller, funny sounding East Pakistanis and that reflected in their attitudes towards the Eastern wing and its people.

There may well have been other reasons, the primary reason the two wings separated was because they just had to. There was little to bind them together as Mountbatten had predicted with surprising accuracy along with the timeline.



> You do not respect sovereignty. That is the crux of the matter. If you have access to classified files of RAW, I would welcome you to go through them. We know what is happening in Bangladesh. Every neighbor of India knows what is happening inside their country. You need to reign in a rogue entity and foreign policy that is driving it. This policy is shooting at your own feet. It will buy you long term grief.



I hope we have better terms with all our neighbors. India should definitely do a better job of it than it has so far. Neighbors being much smaller, it does become difficult. Our sheer size causes anxiety that we have failed to dissipate and our neighbors have not been able to adjust to.

Hopefully both sides will learn with time.


----------



## genmirajborgza786

kalu_miah said:


> - the two wings of Pakistan were bound to seperate (Mounbatten gave it 25 years, Abul Kalam Azad also predicted it)
> - Western Wing racially feels superior to most South Asians to their east and south, so just like Sikhs and Kashmiri's it is natural for them to seek a separate nation. The truly unique case is East Bengal Muslims who wanted a separate nation (race/ethnicity I believe is the hidden factor that is not mentioned but it plays a role as important as religion, people do not want to admit it though)
> - it is because of this racial/ethnic factor that Western wing could never accept a majority rule by the Eastern wing
> - once the two wings separated, the Western wing is continuing their long struggle to keep India at bay, with help of other powers to balance this threat (first it was the US, lately increasingly its China as China is slowly replacing US as no. 1 super power and India is getting closer to the US)



kalu bhai 

I heard that sarat Chandra bose & suhrawardi proposed an united Bengal independent of both India & Pakistan I mean that would be the best solution for both bd & west Bengal why was it rejected ? what was the Muslim league's & congress position on that

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## kalu_miah

Vinod2070 said:


> People paid in blood not because of us but because Tikka Khan and his ilk thought that "once we kill 3 million of them, the rest will be eating out of our hands".
> 
> They looked down on the darker, smaller, funny sounding East Pakistanis and that reflected in their attitudes towards the Eastern wing and its people.
> 
> There may well have been other reasons, the primary reason the two wings separated was because they just had to. There was little to bind them together as Mountbatten had predicted with surprising accuracy along with the timeline.
> 
> I hope we have better terms with all our neighbors. India should definitely do a better job of it than it has so far. Neighbors being much smaller, it does become difficult. Our sheer size causes anxiety that we have failed to dissipate and our neighbors have not been able to adjust to.
> 
> Hopefully both sides will learn with time.



There is some truth to what you say about the cause for blood letting. Separation of the two wings was a foregone conclusion, as Mountbatten predicted.

You guys need to come to terms with your size, bigger size does not mean that you have the right to abuse and meddle in smaller countries. The world is much bigger than India and this attitude will only buy long term sorrow for you.


----------



## Vinod2070

kalu_miah said:


> There is some truth to what you say about the cause for blood letting. Separation of the two wings was a foregone conclusion, as Mountbatten predicted.
> 
> *You guys need to come to terms with your size, bigger size does not mean that you have the right to abuse and meddle in smaller countries. The world is much bigger than India *and this attitude will only buy long term sorrow for you.



Agree with the highlighted part. No one has the right to abuse anyone else, nor to meddle.

If you ask me, I just want to improve the lot of our poor people and see India provide equality of opportunity to every last Indian.

Anything else would be just a byproduct when 1.25 billion people can achieve their potential.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## kalu_miah

genmirajborgza786 said:


> kalu bhai
> 
> I heard that sarat Chandra bose & suhrawardi proposed an united Bengal independent of both India & Pakistan I mean that would be the best solution for both bd & west Bengal why was it rejected ? what was the Muslim league's & congress position on that




Here is the details for this movement:
United Bengal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> *The Muslim League and the Congress issued statements rejecting the notion of an independent Bengal on May 28 and June 1 respectively. The Hindu Mahasabha also agitated against the inclusion of Hindu-majority areas in a Muslim-majority Bengal, while Bengali Muslim leader Khawaja Nazimuddin and Maulana Akram Khan sought the exclusion of Hindu-majority areas to establish a homogenous Muslim Pakistan. Amidst aggravating Hindu-Muslim tensions, on June 3 British viceroy Lord Louis Mountbatten announced plans to partition India and consequently Punjab and Bengal on communal lines, burying the demand for an independent Bengal.*


----------



## genmirajborgza786

kalu_miah said:


> Here is the details for this movement:
> United Bengal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



couldn't careless about the congress or Hindu mahasaba, but I am disheartened to know that the Muslim league rejected it, i am utterly disappointed, it was wrong of them to do so, we deserved what we got in 71, rejecting this proposal by the Muslim league was an injustice to the Bangladeshi people & i apologize for that, it was not fair & Bangladesh lost a lot of land & i believe Muslim league is guilty of this, & the anger of Bangladeshis is totally justified , i agree with you bro, i think you have some valid point regarding you notion of partition was wrong
bitter & i hate it, as i love my Pakistan but none the less the "truth" must prevail & as i said it, no matter how much i dislike it but unfortunately , you do have a valid point regarding the partition 

regards

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## kalu_miah

genmirajborgza786 said:


> couldn't careless about the congress or Hindu mahasaba, but I am disheartened to know that the Muslim league rejected it, i am utterly disappointed, it was wrong of them to do so, we deserved what we got in 71, rejecting this proposal by the Muslim league was an injustice to the Bangladeshi people & i apologize for that, it was not fair & Bangladesh lost a lot of land & i believe Muslim league is guilty of this, & the anger of Bangladeshis is totally justified , i agree with you bro, i think you have some valid point regarding you notion of partition was wrong
> bitter & i hate it, as i love my Pakistan but none the less the "truth" must prevail & as i said it, no matter how much i dislike it but unfortunately , you do have a valid point regarding the partition
> 
> regards



Hindu's of Bengal would never accept a united Bengal. In 1905 Bengal partition, they wanted a united province to not loose influence of Kolkata on all of Bengal, but in 1947 they did not want a sovereign Bengal, because most Bengali Hindu's feared a Muslim majority united Bengal. So Hindu majority West Bengal opted for the security of a Hindu India instead.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_of_Bengal_(1905)

So even if Muslim League supported it, United Bengal would end up in failure, because Hindu Bengali's of West Bengal would reject this anyways.

So Partition, the way it was done was the only possible solution for dividing British India.

The best option was not to have any partition, in my opinion, but then some people in the North West do not like rest of India, Hindu or Muslim, that was the bigger problem which caused partition and clueless East Bengal Muslims were essentially used as a pawn to gain this greater goal, perhaps, while they thought they were also the leaders in this movement. But I don't bring it up often, as people misunderstand my stand on this issue based on my own unique views on geopolitics.

In any case, it is all water under the bridge now, none of this can be undone. New corporate structures, flags, nationalism, elites have emerged based on these 3 territories. The challenge now is to make all these viable entities and improve HDI of the people of this region with as little hot conflict as possible.

Aside from East Bengal Muslims, I feel bad for Non-Bengali Muslims who moved to both wings during Partition. At least East Bengal Muslims have a country to show for. But these uprooted Muslims got a city, Karachi, in Pakistan and essentially nothing in Bangladesh. They are the real victims in the whole sordid saga.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## the just

genmirajborgza786 said:


> kalu bhai
> 
> I heard that sarat Chandra bose & suhrawardi proposed an united Bengal independent of both India & Pakistan I mean that would be the best solution for both bd & west Bengal why was it rejected ? what was the Muslim league's & congress position on that


Two part?what part?hello we are Bangladesh.that's bangla speaking state of India.its not even in indias west.getting together? Over our dead body.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## kalu_miah

the just said:


> Two part?what part?hello we are Bangladesh.that's bangla speaking state of India.its not even in indias west.getting together? Over our dead body.



He is talking about a pre-partition proposal before 1947. This has nothing do with the present. Please read the link in post #217 on United Bengal, you will understand what he was talking about.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Vinod2070

kalu_miah said:


> Hindu's of Bengal would never accept a united Bengal. In 1905 Bengal partition, they wanted a united province to not loose influence of Kolkata on all of Bengal, but in 1947 they did not want a sovereign Bengal, because most Bengali Hindu's feared a Muslim majority united Bengal. So Hindu majority West Bengal opted for the security of a Hindu India instead.
> 
> Partition of Bengal (1905) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> So even if Muslim League supported it, United Bengal would end up in failure, because Hindu Bengali's of West Bengal would reject this anyways.
> 
> So Partition, the way it was done was the only possible solution for dividing British India.



That is correct.

See, once you talk of dividing the country on the basis of religion, on the premise that Muslims can't live under a Hindu majority even with constitutional safeguards, it just leads to some logical conclusions that the reverse is also not possible.

Not partitioning Punjab or Bengal had become untenable after the Muslim league took that position. I am not commenting on the validity of the position itself here.



> The best option was not to have any partition, in my opinion, but then some people in the North West do not like rest of India, Hindu or Muslim, that was the bigger problem which caused partition and clueless East Bengal Muslims were essentially used as a pawn to gain this greater goal, perhaps, while they thought they were also the leaders in this movement. But I don't bring it up often, as people misunderstand my stand on this issue based on my own unique views on geopolitics.



It was not the Muslim majority North West that wanted partition. It was mainly the Muslims in minority provinces like UP who were at the forefront.



> In any case, it is all water under the bridge now, none of this can be undone. New corporate structures, flags, nationalism, elites have emerged based on these 3 territories. The challenge now is to make all these viable entities and improve HDI of the people of this region with as little hot conflict as possible.



Yes, it was probably for the good of all. We don't know what would have happened if there was no partition. Most likely, it would be worse for all of us.



> Aside from East Bengal Muslims, I feel bad for Non-Bengali Muslims who moved to both wings during Partition. At least East Bengal Muslims have a country to show for. But these uprooted Muslims got a city, Karachi, in Pakistan and essentially nothing in Bangladesh. They are the real victims in the whole sordid saga.



They were the ones who wanted it in the first place.

They should try to not lord it over the local populations. I am not trying to be judgmental but on both sides, these people want to drive the agenda when they are only such a small share of the population. They should just act as ordinary citizens and not some kind of overlords over the natives.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## the just

kalu_miah said:


> He is talking about a pre-partition proposal before 1947. This has nothing do with the present. Please read the link in post #217 on United Bengal, you will understand what he was talking about.



Yes started from the top.did understand. What I wrote is for the Dada calling morons in our amidst who secretly wish it .

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## kalu_miah

Vinod2070 said:


> That is correct.
> 
> See, once you talk of dividing the country on the basis of religion, on the premise that Muslims can't live under a Hindu majority even with constitutional safeguards, it just leads to some logical conclusions that the reverse is also not possible.
> 
> Not partitioning Punjab or Bengal had become untenable after the Muslim league took that position. I am not commenting on the validity of the position itself here.
> 
> *It was not the Muslim majority North West that wanted partition. It was mainly the Muslims in minority provinces like UP who were at the forefront.*
> 
> *Yes, it was probably for the good of all. We don't know what would have happened if there was no partition. Most likely, it would be worse for all of us.*
> 
> *They were the ones who wanted it in the first place.*
> 
> *They should try to not lord it over the local populations. I am not trying to be judgmental but on both sides, these people want to drive the agenda when they are only such a small share of the population. They should just act as ordinary citizens and not some kind of overlords over the natives.*



If UP Muslims were leading the effort for Partition, then in my opinion they shot themselves at their feet, some got uprooted and started new life in a "foreign" land, others who did not move, remained as a smaller less powerful minority.

I try to stay away from speculating on what would have happened if partition did not happen. People for some reason have a taboo feeling about this issue. But if my theories are correct, then the result would be exactly opposite of what your view is on this. The break however is clean and irreversible due to forces unleashed since the partition. Because of this reason, I believe any South Asian initiative that tries to create regional relationship between these states, such as SAARC, BIMSTEC etc. will end up in failure. They are a waste of time, have no future and should be scrapped as they only raise false hopes. Bilateral relations are the only thing that has a future in this space in my opinion.

Non-Bengali Muslims apparently allied with West Pakistani's and tried to take advantage of their position of strength in business, bureaucracy and armed forces. Yes, this was indeed one of the sore points that majority Bengali's could not accept in Pakistan, hence the demand for full democratic rights, autonomy etc. But it was Operation Searchlight that broke the proverbial camels back not discrimination and unfair treatment. Rather than finger pointing and blaming others, my effort is mainly to find our (Bengali's in then Pakistan) own fault, if any.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Vinod2070

kalu_miah said:


> If UP Muslims were leading the effort for Partition, then in my opinion they shot themselves at their feet, some got uprooted and started new life in a "foreign" land, others who did not move, remained as a smaller less powerful minority.
> 
> I try to stay away from speculating on what would have happened if partition did not happen. People for some reason have a taboo feeling about this issue. But if my theories are correct, then the result would be exactly opposite of what your view is on this. The break however is clean and irreversible due to forces unleashed since the partition. Because of this reason, I believe any South Asian initiative that tries to create regional relationship between these states, such as SAARC, BIMSTEC etc. will end up in failure. They are a waste of time, have no future and should be scrapped as they only raise false hopes. Bilateral relations are the only thing that has a future in this space in my opinion.
> 
> Non-Bengali Muslims apparently allied with West Pakistani's and tried to take advantage of their position of strength in business, bureaucracy and armed forces. Yes, this was indeed one of the sore points that majority Bengali's could not accept in Pakistan, hence the demand for full democratic rights, autonomy etc. But it was Operation Searchlight that broke the proverbial camels back not discrimination and unfair treatment. Rather than finger pointing and blaming others, my effort is mainly to find our (Bengali's in then Pakistan) own fault, if any.



Will reply in detail later but perhaps there is a clue in the following slogan that was popular at the time:

"Hans ke liya hai Pakistan, Lad ke lenge Hindustan".

At least some of the Muhajirs were under the impression that "they will be back".

With a new Gazhani.

Most were just convinced by the leaders and did what they were told to. That is how it always works.

PS: Also the Muhajirs were probably under the impression that they will be running the new country. For them, the people already present in their new country were no good, to put it mildly.


----------



## kalu_miah

Vinod2070 said:


> Will reply in detail later but perhaps there is a clue in the following slogan that was popular at the time:
> 
> "Hans ke liya hai Pakistan, Lad ke lenge Hindustan".
> 
> At least some of the Muhajirs were under the impression that "they will be back".
> 
> With a new Gazhani.
> 
> Most were just convinced by the leaders and did what they were told to. That is how it always works.
> 
> PS: Also the Muhajirs were probably under the impression that they will be running the new country. For them, the people already present in their new country were no good, to put it mildly.



They were clueless, the result they have to live with, shows for it.

Muhajirs did control Pakistan both wings initially and they took West Pakistan elite as their partner to usurp and keep down Bengali elite. That was the 2nd big mistake after Partition that became one major among many factors that eventually broke Pakistan.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## kalu_miah

cross posted:

Mujib was not pro-India until after 1971, after he was freed from jail in Pakistan. I just found out from Major Dalim&#8217;s book, Ami Major Dalim Bolchi, that Mujib&#8217;s 6-point movement was created by Ford Foundation economists to teach a lesson and a warning to Ayub Khan by USA because he was getting close to China, a US enemy at the time.
Six point movement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Mujib was a lesser known politician with dubious reputation. True to his Gunda (goon) origin under Suhrawardy, he killed deputy speaker of parliament in an assault using broken chairs and microphones as projectiles:
Shahed Ali Patwary - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
MUJIB IN SHAHED ALI&#8217;S DEATH: A CHAIR HIT THE DEPUTY SPEAKER&#8217;S HEAD - Topix


> It was &#8220;20th September 1958, the date scheduled for reopening the East Pakistan Legislative Assambly&#8230;&#8221;
> &#8220;*Speaker Abul Halim complained to President Mirza that he had been threatned with physical violence by Awami League leaders including Mujib if he entered the Legislative building*.&#8221;
> &#8220;Despite the threats he did assume the Speaker&#8217;s chair when the assembly convened. But legislators began physically assaulting each other, liberally using as weapons whatever they could find to hand, including microphones and staff bearing the national standard. The Speaker shouted out an adjoinment order and fled the chambers. As the Awami League members refused to obey that order, Deputy Speaker Shahed Ali took over.&#8221;
> 
> On 23 October (1958),&#8220;despite illness and reluctance to get embroiled in the Awami League&#8217;s disputes with its critics, Shahed Ali Conceded&#8230;&#8221; Missiles including parts of the chamber&#8217;s furniture were thrown and a chair hit the Deputy Speaker in the head.&#8221; These (injured) men,(Mujib was not one of them) and the Deputy Speaker were taken to hospital where two days later, Shahed Ali expired.&#8221; *There was a gang of six Awami League members who were instrumental at throwing chairs with Sarkar and his loyalists; one of the chairs hit Shahed Ali.*
> 
> *During this time, Mujib was starting to be the driving force within the Awami League the Party now slowly being taken over by Suhrowarthy. Realizing this trend Bhasani previously left Awami League to start a new party called the NAP.*



6 point movement catapulted Mujib to popularity. Then Ayub Khan govt. tried to suppress 6-point movement by arresting Mujib and many top AL leaders based on false charges against them connecting them to Agartala Conspiracy (a true treason case connected with RAW), although these AL leaders including Mujib had no connection to this treason case.

Bhashani came up with the 11 point movement mobilizing student activists to free Mujib and other leaders, all of whom were false charges by Ayub Khan govt. Due to these mass movement, Mujib was released, the case against him and others (to frame them) was dropped, and a young undeserving Mujib was catapulted as the undisputed national leader, as there was no one else available to speak as the voice of united East Pakistan. So here is the summary of sequence of events:

- unfair treatment and domination of West Pakistani-Mohajer elite and their usurpation of national power alienated Bengali elite (business, professional, bureacratic, armed forces, law enforcement and political class)
- Bengali elite joined with Bengali masses to press for end of Military rule, which was being used by minority West Pakistan-Mohajer elite to rule over majority Bengali&#8217;s in Pakistan
- 6 point movement was funded and initiated by USA to teach Ayub Khan a lesson when he got close to China, an enemy of USA at the time
- Mujib and other top AL leaders were falsely charged with connection to Agartala Case (a true conspiracy case with some minor figures that was actually hatched by RAW) to frame these national leaders as Indian agents and traitors
- Bhashani launched 11 point movement to free Mujib and others in a mass movement led by student activists
- Ayub Khan govt. fell as a result, Mujib and others were freed and Agartala case was dropped
- Bhasani was already 90 years old in 1970, so instead of this true visionary leader, an undeserving younger Mujib became the face and voice of East Pakistan, whose sole goal was autonomy, as strictly instructed by his US handlers, but never to go for breaking Pakistan in a move for secession
- when Mujib was jailed and Operation Searchlight was initiated, Pakistan Army was unleashed on a defenceless Bengali population, the Bengali members of armed forces revolted and declared independence (Zia) and initiated the armed struggle for liberation

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Vinod2070

kalu_miah said:


> They were clueless, the result they have to live with, shows for it.
> 
> Muhajirs did control Pakistan both wings initially and they took West Pakistan elite as their partner to usurp and keep down Bengali elite. That was the 2nd big mistake after Partition that became one major among many factors that eventually broke Pakistan.



One has to be very afraid that what one asks for, may just come true.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## kalu_miah

Vinod2070 said:


> One has to be very afraid that what one asks for, may just come true.



Agreed, one has to weigh all sides, specially geopolitics, before deciding on what one asks for on these issues. Tagore said:

Ami Jaha chai taha vul kore chai, jaha pai taha chai na
What I want I want by mistake, what I get I do not want.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## kalu_miah

I am reviving this old thread to make several points.

1. This recent riot in Muzaffarnagar in India reinforced my ideas about Partition in 1947. Muslim lives are not safe in a majority Hindu India and it would have been the same if Partition did not happen, even if we had 35% Muslim in an undivided India. So today I unreservedly thank Quad-i-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah as our savior and leader who created Pakistan and created two future homelands for Muslims of South Asia, away from the dirty hand of Hindu majoritarian oppression. Even if he was a Shia, what he has done was for the greater interest of all Muslims in then Pakistan, so he should be hailed as a hero to us all. Without him, there would be no Pakistan, no East Pakistan and no Bangladesh.

2. There are some Pakistani's in this forum who either have some personal issues connected with 1971 war and want to propagate the myth that Bengali's of East Pakistan betrayed West Pakistani's and Mohajer's in East Pakistan by shaking hands with an enemy state India. If one studies history, if one does their own research, the facts one uncovers, point to the other direction. This thread has sufficient details about this, if one is curious they can go through this from the beginning. The conclusion I reached are in this post:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/bangla...hat-does-mean-our-history-23.html#post4090882



> *- unfair treatment and domination of West Pakistani-Mohajer elite and their usurpation of national power alienated Bengali elite (business, professional, bureacratic, armed forces, law enforcement and political class)
> - Bengali elite joined with Bengali masses to press for end of Military rule, which was being used by minority West Pakistan-Mohajer elite to rule over majority Bengali&#8217;s in Pakistan
> - 6 point movement was funded and initiated by USA to teach Ayub Khan a lesson when he got close to China, an enemy of USA at the time
> - Mujib and other top AL leaders were falsely charged with connection to Agartala Case (a true conspiracy case with some minor figures that was actually hatched by RAW) to frame these national leaders as Indian agents and traitors
> - Bhashani launched 11 point movement to free Mujib and others in a mass movement led by student activists
> - Ayub Khan govt. fell as a result, Mujib and others were freed and Agartala case was dropped
> - Bhasani was already 90 years old in 1970, so instead of this true visionary leader, an undeserving younger Mujib became the face and voice of East Pakistan, whose sole goal was autonomy, as strictly instructed by his US handlers, but never to go for breaking Pakistan in a move for secession
> - when Mujib was jailed and Operation Searchlight was initiated, Pakistan Army was unleashed on a defenceless Bengali population, the Bengali members of armed forces revolted and declared independence (Zia) and initiated the armed struggle for liberation*



The Ford foundation and US role in coming up with the 6 point bit is questionable, it is just one of the theories. And Operation Searchlight, the key mistake that broke Pakistan, was planned by none other than a Shia general Yahya Khan with the consent of a Shia politician Bhutto.

3. All that is past history. I have no personal interest in bringing it up. For the future of our country and people, for the greater interest of the Muslim world, I support improving relations between Bangladesh and Pakistan, the 3rd and 2nd largest Muslim country after the largest, Indonesia. Both countries need to move on, towards the future and not remained obsessed with the past, which is detrimental for both.

4. And I do not support Bangladesh going under any kind of Nuclear shield from Pakistan, that is an absolute no-no, people who mention or support such idea should know that overwhelming majority of Bangladesh population will oppose any such move by any quarter. Not only will they loose their political support, any officials even uttering such nonsense may loose their job or position. It is a complete non-starter.


----------



## That Guy

kalu_miah said:


> I am reviving this old thread to make several points.



Please keep dead threads as dead.


----------



## SarthakGanguly

kalu_miah said:


> I am reviving this old thread to make several points.
> 
> 1. This recent riot in Muzaffarnagar in India reinforced my ideas about Partition in 1947. Muslim lives are not safe in a majority Hindu India and it would have been the same if Partition did not happen, even if we had 35% Muslim in an undivided India. So today I unreservedly thank Quad-i-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah as our savior and leader who created Pakistan and created two future homelands for Muslims of South Asia, away from the dirty hand of Hindu majoritarian oppression. Even if he was a Shia, what he has done was for the greater interest of all Muslims in then Pakistan, so he should be hailed as a hero to us all. Without him, there would be no Pakistan, no East Pakistan and no Bangladesh.
> 
> 2. There are some Pakistani's in this forum who either have some personal issues connected with 1971 war and want to propagate the myth that Bengali's of East Pakistan betrayed West Pakistani's and Mohajer's in East Pakistan by shaking hands with an enemy state India. If one studies history, if one does their own research, the facts one uncovers, point to the other direction. This thread has sufficient details about this, if one is curious they can go through this from the beginning. The conclusion I reached are in this post:
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/bangla...hat-does-mean-our-history-23.html#post4090882
> 
> 
> 
> The Ford foundation and US role in coming up with the 6 point bit is questionable, it is just one of the theories. And Operation Searchlight, the key mistake that broke Pakistan, was planned by none other than a *Shia general Yahya Khan with the consent of a Shia politician Bhutto.*
> 
> 3. All that is past history. I have no personal interest in bringing it up. For the future of our country and people, for the greater interest of the Muslim world, I support improving relations between Bangladesh and Pakistan, the 3rd and 2nd largest Muslim country after the largest, Indonesia. Both countries need to move on, towards the future and not remained obsessed with the past, which is detrimental for both.
> 
> 4. And I do not support Bangladesh going under any kind of Nuclear shield from Pakistan, that is an absolute no-no, people who mention or support such idea should know that overwhelming majority of Bangladesh population will oppose any such move by any quarter. Not only will they loose their political support, any officials even uttering such nonsense may loose their job or position. It is a complete non-starter.



Hence proved. 
@Jungibaaz , @seiko - ^^ Zis guy iz too kewt.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Vinod2070

SarthakGanguly said:


> Hence proved.
> @Jungibaaz , @seiko - ^^ Zis guy iz too kewt.



There is just too much muddled thinking going on in this kewt guy!

Almost all of his posts seem to obsess with India and Hindus for some weird reason.

While for us he doesn't matter, not because we have anything against him or his ilk, just that he is not the top priority for us.

His mental gymnastics and obsession with us is fun. Also his obsession with the Ummah (primarily that means Arabs, not African Muslims that are darker skinned and so don't seem to matter) that doesn't give a damn about people like him.

While he claims he has no interest in raking up past, almost all his posts are about the past and some weird fantasies about it.

Just move on and stop obsessing with us. Indians have nothing to do with regressive and hateful elements like him and couldn't care less what he thinks of us or the supposed condition of Muslims in India.

He was the one who was shouting "bring it on" about Muslims in Assam and then disappeared when the unfortunate riots happened there. That shows what such people are in reality, they are prisoners of their hate.

Kisi ke sagay nahi hain ye log, they don't care for anyone except their hate, obsessions and impotence...

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Vinod2070

BTW, these simplistic and deliberately stupid and ignorant claims are also something that can work only on such people!

*Operation Searchlight, the key mistake that broke Pakistan, was planned by none other than a Shia general Yahya Khan with the consent of a Shia politician Bhutto.*

Was Tikka Khan (the butcher of Bengal) also a Shia?

Were the Razakaars also all Shia?

Was the majority of the PA that perpetrated the actual atrocities also Shia?

Was the decades long discrimination and humiliation of Bengalis that preceded this "operation searchlight" and which had become entrenched under Ayub Khan (was he also Shia?) also all done by the Shia heretics?

Is this all not a symptom of weltanschauung (the mental makeup which selects and filters facts before they reach the conscious brain)?

No amount of education can change the brainwashing that has made some people incapable of appreciating the facts! You see this happening over and over...

Another educated Pakistani requested me on another thread to help point him towards some sources and on being done that, we saw the same weltanschauung.

*Psychologists say that even hard facts can be denied when people subscribe to a radically different vision of the world. A glimpse of the current Pakistani weltanschauung &#8212; the mental makeup which selects and filters facts before they reach the conscious brain.*

Why do they pick on us Pakistanis? &#8211; The Express Tribune

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## kalu_miah

Cross posted from 1971 thread as it is relevant here, this is great new info, all Bangladeshi's and Pakistani's should see this:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/bangla...-east-pakistan-bangladesh-97.html#post4854795

@asad71 Bhai, thanks for posting the article above. It mentions Khalid Hasan, a close associate of Bhutto. Here is what he had to say:

Did Bhutto break up Pakistan? -DAWN - Books and Authors; December 15, 2002
1971: what went wrong :

According to him Yahya Khan's personal ambition and unwillingness to give up power to elected representatives was responsible for the breakup of Pakistan.

After reading the above two, I got the distinct feeling that Pakistan Army top generals were not very close to Bhutto, so he could not have been party to the planning process of Operation Searchlight. So in a way Khalid Hasan's views and mine matches that Yahya Khan and the generals who were involved in planning Operation Searchlight were largely responsible for the break up of Pakistan, Bhutto's role was negligible and indirect. Not all Generals agreed, and they were relieved of duty.

The reason for planning this operation was to neutralize Awami League activists who have started killing of Bihari's from early March, 1971. My personal view is that the leaders that were leading at that time from both sides, did not understand the implications of their actions. Awami League activists were guilty for targeting Bihari's, but deploying Army to crush criminal acts by a small unruly section of Awami League, was an over reaction. Law enforcement problems should have been solved by local law enforcement personnel, not Armed forces flown in from the Western wing to disarm and neutralize essentially all Bengali armed men in all branches of govt. That precisely was the mistake that sparked a war of resistance and independence.

In an affidavit Yahya Khan admits that he was the one who decided to go ahead with Operation Searchlight to use the Army to crush the uprising, although he himself blames Bhutto and India, but not Mujib, for the breakup of Pakistan, still being delusional about the gravity of what he had done:

Let us make Pakistan Better

"After a long spell of illness, this military ruler finally breathed his last in August 1980 in the house of his brother Muhammed Ali in Lahore.

In his affidavit, Yahya Khan states how the government had been pushed back against the wall. Awami League President Sheikh Mujibur Rahman gained immense power and Yahya Khan could not accept his attitude. *He says that Mujib had brought the administration to a standstill. This was unacceptable, intolerable. This was a rebellion against the government. He says that there was no alternative to military action against this uprising. He says he did not launch Operation Searchlight on March 25, 1971 at the behest of Bhutto or anyone else. He issued these order in his capacity as President and Army Chief in order to quell the uprising.*

*Yahya Khan, in this document, is unwilling to accept that the cessation of East Pakistan and the surrender of the Pakistan army as a military defeat. He says this is was a naked conspiracy of India. He berates India and Russia for their role in this regard and has all gratitude for the United States and China for their support. He terms Mujib as a patriot, but says that Awami League had a section of radical leftists who were instigating him.They did not want to relinquish the opportunity to materialise India's long cherished dream of breaking up Pakistan.*

*According to Yahya Khan, it was Tikka Khan who issued the orders to capture Mujib dead or alive. Bhutto had wanted to hang Mujib. Mujib was prepared to change his six-point demand if necessary. The news of America's Seventh Fleet and China's involvement in the war were rumours. Yahya claims that in the end he wanted to leave East Pakistan's power in the hands of Awami League.*"

It looks like I am agreeing Yahya Khan at least on this point, that Mujib did not want breakup of Pakistan, unlike some radical leftists within his party. Yahya Khan blames Bhutto and India for the breakup, but I personally blame Yahya Khan and other planners and executors of Operation Searchlight.


----------



## Vinod2070

kalu_miah said:


> Yahya Khan, in this document, is unwilling to accept that the cessation of East Pakistan and the surrender of the Pakistan army as a military defeat. He says this is was a naked conspiracy of India. He berates India and Russia for their role in this regard and has all gratitude for the United States and China for their support.



Its getting more confusing than ever!

So the Shia Yahya Khan ( along with the Shia Bhutto) seems to be on the same side as USA and China and opposed to India and USSR! 

So what's the latest on this?

Does that still make India the bigger enemy (even if it was the enemy of the enemy as well)?


----------



## extra terrestrial

kalu_miah said:


> I am reviving this old thread to make several points.
> 
> 1. This recent riot in Muzaffarnagar in India reinforced my ideas about Partition in 1947. Muslim lives are not safe in a majority Hindu India and it would have been the same if Partition did not happen, even if we had 35% Muslim in an undivided India. *So today I unreservedly thank Quad-i-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah as our savior and leader who created Pakistan and created two future homelands for Muslims of South Asia, away from the dirty hand of Hindu majoritarian oppression.* Even if he was a Shia, what he has done was for the greater interest of all Muslims in then Pakistan, so he should be hailed as a hero to us all. Without him, there would be no Pakistan, no East Pakistan and no Bangladesh.
> 
> 2. There are some Pakistani's in this forum who either have some personal issues connected with 1971 war and want to propagate the myth that Bengali's of East Pakistan betrayed West Pakistani's and Mohajer's in East Pakistan by shaking hands with an enemy state India. If one studies history, if one does their own research, the facts one uncovers, point to the other direction. This thread has sufficient details about this, if one is curious they can go through this from the beginning. The conclusion I reached are in this post:
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/bangla...hat-does-mean-our-history-23.html#post4090882
> 
> 
> 
> The Ford foundation and US role in coming up with the 6 point bit is questionable, it is just one of the theories. And Operation Searchlight, the key mistake that broke Pakistan, was planned by none other than a Shia general Yahya Khan with the consent of a Shia politician Bhutto.
> 
> 3. All that is past history. I have no personal interest in bringing it up. For the future of our country and people, for the greater interest of the Muslim world, I support improving relations between Bangladesh and Pakistan, the 3rd and 2nd largest Muslim country after the largest, Indonesia. Both countries need to move on, towards the future and not remained obsessed with the past, which is detrimental for both.
> 
> 4. And I do not support Bangladesh going under any kind of Nuclear shield from Pakistan, that is an absolute no-no, people who mention or support such idea should know that overwhelming majority of Bangladesh population will oppose any such move by any quarter. Not only will they loose their political support, any officials even uttering such nonsense may loose their job or position. It is a complete non-starter.



Jinnah was, no doubt, a great leader but not for all the Muslims of the sub continent. He was reluctant in listening to the problems of Bengali Muslims and was somewhat racially partial towards the Muslims of northern and western sub continent. Leaders like A K Fazlul Haq, Suhrawardy, Abul Hashim realized this to some extent, Fazlul Haq stood firm against Jinnah which is why he was left segregated in Muslim politics until 1950s. Suhrawardy and Hashim tried to establish independent Bengal but when it failed they had to return under the umbrella of Jinnah. Then again there were some pure sycophants of Jinnah like Nazimuddin, Nurul Amin, Akram Kha to ball up all those things.

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## kalu_miah

extra terrestrial said:


> Jinnah was, no doubt, a great leader but not for all the Muslims of the sub continent. He was reluctant in listening to the problems of Bengali Muslims and was somewhat racially partial towards the Muslims of northern and western sub continent. Leaders like A K Fazlul Haq, Suhrawardy, Abul Hashim realized this to some extent, Fazlul Haq stood firm against Jinnah which is why he was left segregated in Muslim politics until 1950s. Suhrawardy and Hashim tried to establish independent Bengal but when it failed they had to return under the umbrella of Jinnah. Then again there were some pure sycophants of Jinnah like Nazimuddin, Nurul Amin, Akram Kha to ball up all those things.



Good points. May be you are referring to the fact that some of us believe that if Jinnah was more sympathetic to Bengal Muslims, he would probably get a better and bigger landmass for the Eastern wing. I don't know the details to comment about this. 

None of the other leaders were of Jinnah's stature and none played a role like Jinnah. Jinnah created Pakistan and from which Bangladesh emerged, so we are bound to express our gratitude to him for his contribution. Giving credit where it is due is the least we can do, to be fair about history.

The fact that he was not a Bengali or did not have too much sympathy for us Bengal Muslims should not matter on this point.

I have read that since 1947, Jinnah started recruiting more Bengali's in armed forces and civilian govt. on a priority basis to offset the imbalance created by the British Martial race theory, but this was reversed by Ayub Khan, after military takeover of the govt. Ayub Khan, a firm believer in the British taught race theory, apparently did not have high opinion of Bengali's and he was mainly responsible for low recruitment of Bengali's in armed forces and other branches of govt., which created the background for political discontent of Bengali's in Pakistan.

There is an Indian idiot who seem to stalk every thread where I post, trying to malign whatever opinions I have. I will just say a few words about what Vali Nasr said about Shia role in formation of Pakistan and running of state affairs. Before the take over of Zia-ul-Haq, essentially Pakistan was run by an elite that was dominated by Shia sect, both Urdu speaking Bengali, Hindustani and from West Pakistan. Iskander Mirza and Mohammad Ali Bogra were both Shia. So the Shia factor was not insignificant in then Pakistan. Although they got sidelined since fall of Bhutto, they still play a significant role in running of Pakistan:
Shia Islam in Pakistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## extra terrestrial

kalu_miah said:


> Good points. May be you are referring to the fact that some of us believe that if Jinnah was more sympathetic to Bengal Muslims, he would probably get a better and bigger landmass for the Eastern wing. I don't know the details to comment about this.
> 
> None of the other leaders were of Jinnah's stature and none played a role like Jinnah. Jinnah created Pakistan and from which Bangladesh emerged, so we are bound to express our gratitude to him for his contribution. Giving credit where it is due is the least we can do, to be fair about history.
> 
> The fact that he was not a Bengali or did not have too much sympathy for us Bengal Muslims should not matter on this point.



Well, it doesn't matter if someone is sympathetic or not, what matter is that what has he done! Personally, I would have revered Jinnah a lot more if he had explicitly supported the independent Bengal pan and when it failed, he should have supported the independence of East Bengal. If he really wanted to do something for the Bengalis he would have never pushed for the inclusion of Bengal into Pakistan. The only thing Jinnah wanted was the strongest possible Pakistan against India, even if it's at expense of Bengalis' interests. You may know, the Lahore Resolution initially proposed for two separate Muslim states in western and north eastern sub-continent, it was a win-win situation for all the Muslims and hence all the Bengali Muslim leaders supported it. But Jinnah changed the "two states" proposal into "one state" just at the last moment when the independent Bengal plan failed. Why did he do that? The proposal also kept many leaders like Suhrawardy in illusion, they always thought there will be an independent state in Bengal, it was reflected in the speeches by Suhrawardy during the partition period. 



> I have read that since 1947, Jinnah started recruiting more Bengali's in armed forces and civilian govt. on a priority basis to offset the imbalance created by the British Martial race theory, but this was reversed by Ayub Khan, after military takeover of the govt. Ayub Khan, a firm believer in the British taught race theory, apparently did not have high opinion of Bengali's and he was mainly responsible for low recruitment of Bengali's in armed forces and other branches of govt., which created the background for political discontent of Bengali's in Pakistan.



As far as I know, there were some Bengali personnels in armed forces but they started to recruit more after the 1965 war when many Bengali officers caught their eye and won some gallantry awards. But Bengalis have always been deprived of higher ranks and yes, Martial Race mentality was the main reason behind this. About the political discontent, it was always there, more precisely since 1949 when the BPC was formulated.



> There is an Indian idiot who seem to stalk every thread where I post, trying to malign whatever opinions I have. I will just say a few words about what Vali Nasr said about Shia role in formation of Pakistan and running of state affairs. Before the take over of Zia-ul-Haq, essentially Pakistan was run by an elite that was dominated by Shia sect, both Urdu speaking Bengali, Hindustani and from West Pakistan. Iskander Mirza and Mohammad Ali Bogra were both Shia. So the Shia factor was not insignificant in then Pakistan. Although they got sidelined since fall of Bhutto, they still play a significant role in running of Pakistan:
> Shia Islam in Pakistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Frankly, those shia factors don't seem that influential to me. I have a shia friend and I only got to know that he's a shia when we had the Jumma prayer together, apart from the prayers, I could hardly find any differences between him and me.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Vinod2070

I think it is a sign of cowardliness to take cheap potshots and not reply directly to people.

People need to get rid of their wet dreams of "bigger and better landmass". They have fared much better than any other example whether you take Spain or Greece...

The only practical way for all neighbors is to recognize that we need to work with each other to improve the lot of our poor people and not remain bound to the some false fantasies.


----------



## khair_ctg

genmirajborgza786 said:


> couldn't careless about the congress or Hindu mahasaba, but I am disheartened to know that the Muslim league rejected it, i am utterly disappointed, it was wrong of them to do so, we deserved what we got in 71, rejecting this proposal by the Muslim league was an injustice to the Bangladeshi people & i apologize for that, it was not fair & Bangladesh lost a lot of land & i believe Muslim league is guilty of this, & the anger of Bangladeshis is totally justified , i agree with you bro, i think you have some valid point regarding you notion of partition was wrong
> bitter & i hate it, as i love my Pakistan but none the less the "truth" must prevail & as i said it, no matter how much i dislike it but unfortunately , you do have a valid point regarding the partition
> 
> regards



sorry you're mistaken to say ML "rejected" Hussein Suhrawardy's proposition. opinions of just two Bengalis, Khwaja Nazim-ud-Din and Mohammad Akram Khan, were trumped by the official/unofficial declarations of support by the majority in the party, including from Mohammad Ali Jinnah, which formed the stance of the ML party on the proposition of united Bengal (MA Jinnah apparently also favoured inclusion of Assam and other surrounding areas). 1940s Bengal was much different from 1900s Bengal... Congress and Mahasaba was dominating politics among Hindus and were the main opponents of United Bengal in 1940s. the "anger" you mentioned cannot be just confined to now-Bangladeshis...

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2006\11\12\story_12-11-2006_pg7_2

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## khair_ctg

kalu_miah said:


> cross posted:
> 
> Mujib was not pro-India until after 1971, after he was freed from jail in Pakistan. I just found out from Major Dalims book, Ami Major Dalim Bolchi, that Mujibs 6-point movement was created by Ford Foundation economists to teach a lesson and a warning to Ayub Khan by USA because he was getting close to China, a US enemy at the time.
> Six point movement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Mujib was a lesser known politician with dubious reputation. True to his Gunda (goon) origin under Suhrawardy, he killed deputy speaker of parliament in an assault using broken chairs and microphones as projectiles:
> Shahed Ali Patwary - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> MUJIB IN SHAHED ALIS DEATH: A CHAIR HIT THE DEPUTY SPEAKERS HEAD - Topix
> 
> 
> 6 point movement catapulted Mujib to popularity. Then Ayub Khan govt. tried to suppress 6-point movement by arresting Mujib and many top AL leaders based on false charges against them connecting them to Agartala Conspiracy (a true treason case connected with RAW), although these AL leaders including Mujib had no connection to this treason case.
> 
> Bhashani came up with the 11 point movement mobilizing student activists to free Mujib and other leaders, all of whom were false charges by Ayub Khan govt. Due to these mass movement, Mujib was released, the case against him and others (to frame them) was dropped, and a young undeserving Mujib was catapulted as the undisputed national leader, as there was no one else available to speak as the voice of united East Pakistan. So here is the summary of sequence of events:
> 
> - unfair treatment and domination of West Pakistani-Mohajer elite and their usurpation of national power alienated Bengali elite (business, professional, bureacratic, armed forces, law enforcement and political class)
> - Bengali elite joined with Bengali masses to press for end of Military rule, which was being used by minority West Pakistan-Mohajer elite to rule over majority Bengalis in Pakistan
> - 6 point movement was funded and initiated by USA to teach Ayub Khan a lesson when he got close to China, an enemy of USA at the time
> - Mujib and other top AL leaders were falsely charged with connection to Agartala Case (a true conspiracy case with some minor figures that was actually hatched by RAW) to frame these national leaders as Indian agents and traitors
> - Bhashani launched 11 point movement to free Mujib and others in a mass movement led by student activists
> - Ayub Khan govt. fell as a result, Mujib and others were freed and Agartala case was dropped
> - Bhasani was already 90 years old in 1970, so instead of this true visionary leader, an undeserving younger Mujib became the face and voice of East Pakistan, whose sole goal was autonomy, as strictly instructed by his US handlers, but never to go for breaking Pakistan in a move for secession
> - when Mujib was jailed and Operation Searchlight was initiated, Pakistan Army was unleashed on a defenceless Bengali population, the Bengali members of armed forces revolted and declared independence (Zia) and initiated the armed struggle for liberation



you seem to be trying to comprehend the sequence of events since '47. however your multiple-point conclusion never accounted for the unruly excessive agitation led by E. Pakistani politicians with support from a section of gullible misinformed people since late '40s. and you did not account for the socio-economic backwardness of Eastern Bengal in particular, a baggage from the crippling colonial rule, and the effect it had among Bengali Muslims when they found themselves with others in their newly formed nation in '47. in line with that, i don't think any meaningful "Bengali elite" as you mentioned even existed especially as they were swallowed by that unruly leftist politics

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Armstrong

genmirajborgza786 said:


> couldn't careless about the congress or Hindu mahasaba, but I am disheartened to know that the Muslim league rejected it, i am utterly disappointed, it was wrong of them to do so, we deserved what we got in 71, rejecting this proposal by the Muslim league was an injustice to the Bangladeshi people & i apologize for that, it was not fair & Bangladesh lost a lot of land & i believe Muslim league is guilty of this, & the anger of Bangladeshis is totally justified , i agree with you bro, i think you have some valid point regarding you notion of partition was wrong
> bitter & i hate it, as i love my Pakistan but none the less the "truth" must prevail & as i said it, no matter how much i dislike it but unfortunately , you do have a valid point regarding the partition
> 
> regards



Waisee tou tuuu meraa bhai haiii but sometimes I wish kei eik raptaaa tereiii muuunh pei maarooon !  

What the foOk are you apologizing for ? 

Both the Quaid & the Muslim League agreed, in principal, to the idea of a United Bengal in much the same way there was a demand for a United Punjab. Both Abul Hashim & Suhrawardy, proponents of the United Independent Bengal Movement, were key members of the Muslim League after all with Suhrawardy being the Muslim League's Chief Minister in Bengal ! 

When that idea was floated both the Indian National Congress & the Hindu Mahasabha were staunchly opposed to that idea because both Sardar Patel & Nehru are said to have believed that an independent Bengal would be seen as an extension of Pakistan or that it would be seen as an extension of the borders of Pakistan whereby West Bengal would be absorbed into it as well ! Hence The Bengal unity formula received a further setback when, following the statement of the Congress Working Committee, Kalipada Mukherjee, the General Secretary of the Bengal Congress discarded it through a statement issued on 1 June 1947. 

Additionally Bengali Leaders of the Muslim League like Nazimuddin & others opposed this plan whereby on 28 May 1947, the Working Committee of the Bengal Provincial Muslim League at its meeting under the Presidentship of Akram Khan denounced the terms of the tentative agreement and reiterated its demand for integration with Pakistan ! 

What the foOk are '*we*' supposed to apologize for in all of that ? The Bengalis couldn't agree amongst themselves - the Congress, the Mahasabha, the Muslim League etc. *of Bengal* ! 

Stop being apologetic for something that we're not even responsible for ! 

At any rate even Suhrawardy himself was saying something at one time & saying something else at other times : While replying to a no  confidence motion moved against him in September 1946, Suhrawardy said 'Reference has been made to a statement which I am alleged to have made at Delhi regarding unilaterally declaring independence of Bengal and running a parallel government in case the demand for Pakistan is not accepted.' 

And another time : Surely I have never conceived that I could declare independence while remaining as chief minister under the 1935 Act. 

And another time : I still maintain that Bengal one day shall be an independent and sovereign country. 

And it goes without saying that it was Suhrawardy who April 1946 at the Muslim League Parliamentary Party convention in New Delhi.According to this resolution, the last para of the 1940 Pakistan Resolution, declaring that both Eastern and Western Zones will be sovereign having their own defence, foreign affairs, communication sections, etc., was deleted. Instead of the two zones, the word Pakistan zone was incorporated. The word `states` was changed to `state` and `units` were changed to `provinces`. The word `units` meant both the provinces and the Indian states together with the tribal areas. 


Bangladesh should have been separated from Pakistan & good riddance for that but don't go about apologizing on behalf of nearly 200 million Pakistanis for a mess that the Bengalis themselves couldn't solve in '47 ! 

' @Secur - Your views !

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## BanglaBhoot

Armstrong said:


> According to this resolution, the last para of the 1940 Pakistan Resolution, declaring that both Eastern and Western Zones will be sovereign having their own defence, foreign affairs, communication sections, etc., was deleted. Instead of the two zones, the word Pakistan zone was incorporated. The word `states` was changed to `state` and `units` were changed to `provinces`. The word `units` meant both the provinces and the Indian states together with the tribal areas. @Secur - Your views !



Whose decision was it to make this change? Suhrawardy did not do this unilaterally. He was compelled to make this amendment. Of course after Congress rejected united Punjab and united Bengal had not the Lahore Resolution been amended an independent Muslim Bengal would have been invaded and occupied by India after 1947 in any case.

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## Tameem

Intresting Read.

*The United Bengal plan
*
After it became apparent that the division of India on the basis of the Two-Nation Theory will almost certainly result in the partition of the Bengal province along religious lines, Bengal provincial Muslim League leader Suhrawardy came up with a radical plan to create an independent Bengal state that won't join either Pakistan or India and remain unpartitioned. *Suhrawardy realised that if Bengal is partitioned then it will be economically disastrous for east Bengal[2] as all coal mines, all jute mills but two and other industrial plants will certainly go to the western part since these were in an overwhelmingly Hindu majority area.[3] Most important of all, Kolkata, then the largest city in India, an industrial and commercial hub and the largest port will also go to the western part. Suhrawardy floated his idea on 24 April 1947 at a press conference in Delhi.*[4]

However the plan directly ran counter to the Muslim League's, which was a political party during the period of the British Rule which advocated the creation of a separate Muslim-majority nation, demand of the creation of a separate Muslim homeland on the basis of two-nation theory. Initially Bengal provincial Muslim League leadership opinion was divided. Barddhaman's League leader Abul Hashim supported it.[5] On the other hand Nurul Amin and Mohammad Akram Khan initially opposed it.[6][7] *But Muhammad Ali Jinnah realised the validity of Suhrawardy's argument and gave his tacit support to the plan.[8][9][10] After Jinnah's approval, Suhrawardy started gathering support for his plan.
*
On the Congress side, only a handful of leaders agreed to the plan. Among them was the influential Bengal provincial congress leader Sarat Chandra Bose, the elder brother of Netaji and Kiran Shankar Roy. However most other BPCC leaders and Congress leadership including Nehru and Patel rejected the plan. The Hindu nationalist party Hindu Mahasabha under the leadership of Shyama Prasad Mukherjee vehemently opposed it.[11] Their opinion was that the plan is nothing but a ploy by Suhrawardy to stop the partition of the state so that the industrially developed western part including the city of Kolkata remains under League control. They also opined that even though the plan asked for a sovereign Bengal state, in practice it will be a virtual Pakistan and the Hindu minority will be at the mercy of the Muslim majority forever.[12][13][14]

*Although the chances of the proposal seeing daylight without Congress central committee's approval was slim, Bose and Suhrawardy continued talks to reach an agreement on the political structure of the proposed state.* Like Suhrawardy, Bose also felt that the partition will severely hamper Bengal's economy and almost half of the Hindu population will be left stranded on the Pakistani side.[15] The agreement was published on 24 May 1947.[16] However this was largely a political agreement. The proposal had hardly any support at grassroots level, particularly among the Hindus.[17] Muslim League's continuous propaganda on the two-nation theory for the previous six years combined with the marginalisation of Hindus in the Suhrawardy ministry and the vicious riots of 1946, which many Hindus believed was state sponsored, left little room for trust in Muslim League among Bengali Hindus.[18] *Soon afterwards, division arose among Bose and Suhrawardy on the question of the nature of the electorate; separate or joint. Suhrawardy insisted upon maintaining the separate electorate for Muslims and Non-Muslims. Bose was opposed to this. He withdrew and due to lack of any other significant support from the Congress's side, the United Bengal plan was discarded.[19] Still, this relatively unknown episode marked the last attempt among Bengali Muslim and Hindu communities to avoid the partition and live together.*

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Armstrong

MBI Munshi said:


> Whose decision was it to make this change? Suhrawardy did not do this unilaterally. He was compelled to make this amendment. Of course after Congress rejected united Punjab and united Bengal had not the Lahore Resolution been amended an independent Muslim Bengal would have been invaded and occupied by India after 1947 in any case.



He was compelled to make this amendment because of the actions of the Congress, the Mahasahbha & the Bengali Muslims in the Muslim League in Bengal - What am I supposed to apologize about in all of this ? That the Bengalis themselves torpedoed this plan so its somehow my doing as the author of the *original post* was implying ? 

Believe me I would want nothing more than to turn back time & have an Independent Bengal that has nothing to do with Pakistan whatsoever ! Now whether that independent Bengal gets absorbed by India, Burma or is invaded by the Martians is inconsequential to me !

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Tameem

I believe, had the "Calcutta" falls in East Pakistan territory the dejection & alienation to original motherland in Bengali Muslims elite not surpassed so compound, something we achieve in our Part of the division of Punjab when we successfully bring "Lahore" in West Pakistan Map. These are the two prized cities with different partition outcome.


----------



## genmirajborgza786

Armstrong said:


> Waisee tou tuuu meraa bhai haiii but sometimes I wish kei eik raptaaa tereiii muuunh pei maarooon !
> 
> What the foOk are you apologizing for ?
> 
> Both the Quaid & the Muslim League agreed, in principal, to the idea of a United Bengal in much the same way there was a demand for a United Punjab. Both Abul Hashim & Suhrawardy, proponents of the United Independent Bengal Movement, were key members of the Muslim League after all with Suhrawardy being the Muslim League's Chief Minister in Bengal !
> 
> When that idea was floated both the Indian National Congress & the Hindu Mahasabha were staunchly opposed to that idea because both Sardar Patel & Nehru are said to have believed that an independent Bengal would be seen as an extension of Pakistan or that it would be seen as an extension of the borders of Pakistan whereby West Bengal would be absorbed into it as well ! Hence The Bengal unity formula received a further setback when, following the statement of the Congress Working Committee, Kalipada Mukherjee, the General Secretary of the Bengal Congress discarded it through a statement issued on 1 June 1947.
> 
> Additionally Bengali Leaders of the Muslim League like Nazimuddin & others opposed this plan whereby on 28 May 1947, the Working Committee of the Bengal Provincial Muslim League at its meeting under the Presidentship of Akram Khan denounced the terms of the tentative agreement and reiterated its demand for integration with Pakistan !
> 
> What the foOk are '*we*' supposed to apologize for in all of that ? The Bengalis couldn't agree amongst themselves - the Congress, the Mahasabha, the Muslim League etc. *of Bengal* !
> 
> Stop being apologetic for something that we're not even responsible for !
> 
> At any rate even Suhrawardy himself was saying something at one time & saying something else at other times : While replying to a no &#8211; confidence motion moved against him in September 1946, Suhrawardy said 'Reference has been made to a statement which I am alleged to have made at Delhi regarding unilaterally declaring independence of Bengal and running a parallel government in case the demand for Pakistan is not accepted.'
> 
> And another time : Surely I have never conceived that I could declare independence while remaining as chief minister under the 1935 Act.
> 
> And another time : I still maintain that Bengal one day shall be an independent and sovereign country.
> 
> And it goes without saying that it was Suhrawardy who April 1946 at the Muslim League Parliamentary Party convention in New Delhi.According to this resolution, the last para of the 1940 Pakistan Resolution, declaring that both Eastern and Western Zones will be sovereign having their own defence, foreign affairs, communication sections, etc., was deleted. Instead of the two zones, the word Pakistan zone was incorporated. The word `states` was changed to `state` and `units` were changed to `provinces`. The word `units` meant both the provinces and the Indian states together with the tribal areas.
> 
> 
> Bangladesh should have been separated from Pakistan & good riddance for that but don't go about apologizing on behalf of nearly 200 million Pakistanis for a mess that the Bengalis themselves couldn't solve in '47 !
> 
> ' @Secur - Your views !



bro, the post of mine you quoted is quite old

i know that bro, I researched on the subject, as I could not rest with this burden myself & Alhamdulillah ,to my relieve I found that the Quaid had actually *supported* the idea of a united but independent Bengal proposed by Husein suharawardi & Sarat Chandra bose , plus I came to also learn that Quaid was also in good terms with the south Indians , like notable south Indian politician E. V. Ramasami popularly known as Periyar 

this had cleared my doubts quite a while ago, The Quaid indeed was a great leaders & selfless person even knowing that "Dravida Nadu" & "United Independent Socialist Bengal" would not be incorporated into Pakistan, none the less he supported it 



> and expected its support in return.[24] In an interview with the Governor of Madras, Jinnah, the main leader of Muslim League, said that India should be divided into four regions: Dravidistan, Hindustan, Bengalistan and Pakistan; Dravidistan would approximately consist of the area under the Madras Presidency.[25] Jinnah stated *"I have every sympathy and shall do all to help, and you establish Dravidistan where the 7 per cent Muslim population will stretch its hands of friendship and live with you on lines of security, justice and fairplay*
> 
> Dravida Nadu - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Quaid with E. V. Ramasami & dr. Ambedkar

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## LaBong

Tameem said:


> I believe, had the "Calcutta" falls in East Pakistan territory the dejection & alienation to original motherland in Bengali Muslims elite not surpassed so compound, something we achieve in our Part of the division of Punjab when we successfully bring "Lahore" in West Pakistan Map. These are the two prized cities with different partition outcome.


You have no idea whatsoever of then Bengal's society and demography.


----------



## Zabaniyah

Talking about alternate realities is a waste of time.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## LaBong

Jinnahs support for United Bengal was mostly face saving gesture and he wasnt anyway much bothered about Bengalis, only thing he cared about is that losing Bengal and South India would weaken the India which would have benefited Pakistan. 

Separate electorate for muslims and hindus would mean better qualified but minority Hindu population will be ruled by inefficient Muslim politicians just because they happen to be Muslim. No sane bengali worth his salt would applause Jinnah for this.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## kalu_miah

extra terrestrial said:


> Well, it doesn't matter if someone is sympathetic or not, what matter is that what has he done! Personally, I would have revered Jinnah a lot more if he had explicitly supported the independent Bengal pan and when it failed, he should have supported the independence of East Bengal. If he really wanted to do something for the Bengalis he would have never pushed for the inclusion of Bengal into Pakistan. The only thing Jinnah wanted was the strongest possible Pakistan against India, even if it's at expense of Bengalis' interests. You may know, the Lahore Resolution initially proposed for two separate Muslim states in western and north eastern sub-continent, it was a win-win situation for all the Muslims and hence all the Bengali Muslim leaders supported it. But Jinnah changed the "two states" proposal into "one state" just at the last moment when the independent Bengal plan failed. Why did he do that? The proposal also kept many leaders like Suhrawardy in illusion, they always thought there will be an independent state in Bengal, it was reflected in the speeches by Suhrawardy during the partition period.
> 
> As far as I know, there were some Bengali personnels in armed forces but they started to recruit more after the 1965 war when many Bengali officers caught their eye and won some gallantry awards. But Bengalis have always been deprived of higher ranks and yes, Martial Race mentality was the main reason behind this. About the political discontent, it was always there, more precisely since 1949 when the BPC was formulated.
> 
> Frankly, those shia factors don't seem that influential to me. I have a shia friend and I only got to know that he's a shia when we had the Jumma prayer together, apart from the prayers, I could hardly find any differences between him and me.



In 1947, it was hard to tell what would transpire in the future, but the geographical distance and ethnic difference was a big enough factor that people like Mountbatten predicted that Pakistan will break in about 25 years, which was exactly what happened.

1. Having 3 independent countries would definitely have been a better choice
2. The other option would have been to start with much more federalized looser union with an escape clause for separation by referendum in any one wing

Option 2 had the added advantage of having a common foreign policy and defense, but separate bureaucratic and financial management.

Instead of option 1 or 2, what we had was an effort at integrating two separate landmass, their population and a transplanted migrant population from India, who moved to both wings. It was an ambitious project, it was mismanaged and it failed. While a more modest goal of 2 might have worked, a more ambitious goal has failed.

As for Jinnah's personal motivation for doing what he did, I do not know enough to comment. He was a Gujarati Muslim of Shia sect who married a Parsi lady. He was one of the representatives of the then educated Hindustani Muslim elite, many of whom migrated to both wings. Naturally he would try to further the interest of his group, sometimes at the expense of other ethnic groups. So I think it is only natural and any Bengali in his position would have done worse. So we should not blame him for not creating 3 separate countries. If Bengali leaders were really serious about this goal and believed in it, they should have pursued it on their own, regardless of whether West Bengal wanted to be with East Bengal or not. We cannot blame Jinnah for this, because he was not a Bengali leader and getting an independent East Bengal was not his responsibility. He did what he had to do, but it was our Bengali leaders who lacked foresight and vision and failed our people. At least they could have negotiated with Jinnah for a No. 2 option constitution from the start, instead of what we started out with. If we had a constitution like that, then we could probably avoid the situation in 1971 and the union could still survive. And if there was difficulty still, we could separate without any bloodshed, just by holding a referendum on one side.

The failure which culminated in the war in 1971, created a rift between 3 main groups of Muslim populations in South Asia, Bengal Muslims, Hindustani Muslims and Pakistan Muslims, which could have been avoided.

Now the ghost of 1971 still affects future common endeavors by any of these 3 groups. What we should learn from this is that any geopolitical decision by a country or people of a landmass has to be much more carefully thought out, to avoid this kind of catastrophic failures.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Armstrong

@genmirajborgza786 - Ok, sorry !

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## INDIC

Tameem said:


> I believe, had the "Calcutta" falls in East Pakistan territory the dejection & alienation to original motherland in Bengali Muslims elite not surpassed so compound, something we achieve in our Part of the division of Punjab when we successfully bring "Lahore" in West Pakistan Map. These are the two prized cities with different partition outcome.



Calcutta was deep inside Hindu majority areas of Bengal, it was impossible for East Bengal to get Calcutta.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Tameem

Armstrong said:


> Believe me I would want nothing more than to turn back time & have an Independent Bengal that has nothing to do with Pakistan whatsoever ! *Now whether that independent Bengal gets absorbed by India, Burma or is invaded by the Martians is inconsequential to me !*



Quite right bcz that state would run parallel to ML & Quaid's Idea of "Two nation theory" in the first place.

But i astonish to learn how strongly Quaid's believe was in his Idea that despite this fact he allow Soharwardy to begin these talks of Independent Bengal with Bengali Hindus wholeheartedly and in the end talks failed again on the issues of separate electorate etc., something ML already vociferous......He is definitely a Genius!


----------



## extra terrestrial

kalu_miah said:


> *In 1947, it was hard to tell what would transpire in the future, but the geographical distance and ethnic difference was a big enough factor that people like Mountbatten predicted that Pakistan will break in about 25 years, which was exactly what happened.*



Absolutely. Since you have put forth the predictions by the British about the future of the subcontinent, let me add that they also predicted Calcutta will soon start to decline right after the partition and that's exactly what happened. The only prediction that proved to be wrong was the future economic status of East Bengal. They said East Bengal won't survive without the western part of Bengal, in contrast we not only survived but have already surpassed West Bengal by miles and on the way to surpass Pakistan.



> 1. Having 3 independent countries would definitely have been a better choice
> 2. The other option would have been to start with much more federalized looser union with an escape clause for separation by referendum in any one wing
> 
> Option 2 had the added advantage of having a common foreign policy and defense, but separate bureaucratic and financial management.
> 
> Instead of option 1 or 2, what we had was an effort at integrating two separate landmass, their population and a transplanted migrant population from India, who moved to both wings. It was an ambitious project, it was mismanaged and it failed. While a more modest goal of 2 might have worked, a more ambitious goal has failed.



About the second option, you first need to have strong democratic environment to ensure its implementation and given the events that took place between 47 and 71 and the post-71 political history of both Bangladesh and Pakistan, we can safely conclude that option 2 was never going to be successful.



> As for Jinnah's personal motivation for doing what he did, I do not know enough to comment. He was a Gujarati Muslim of Shia sect who married a Parsi lady. He was one of the representatives of the then educated Hindustani Muslim elite, many of whom migrated to both wings. *Naturally he would try to further the interest of his group, sometimes at the expense of other ethnic groups. So I think it is only natural and any Bengali in his position would have done worse. So we should not blame him for not creating 3 separate countries. If Bengali leaders were really serious about this goal and believed in it, they should have pursued it on their own, regardless of whether West Bengal wanted to be with East Bengal or not. We cannot blame Jinnah for this, because he was not a Bengali leader and getting an independent East Bengal was not his responsibility.* He did what he had to do, but it was our Bengali leaders who lacked foresight and vision and failed our people. At least they could have negotiated with Jinnah for a No. 2 option constitution from the start, instead of what we started out with. If we had a constitution like that, then we could probably avoid the situation in 1971 and the union could still survive. And if there was difficulty still, we could separate without any bloodshed, just by holding a referendum on one side.



First of all, Jinnah was regarded as the supreme leader of the Muslims of the subcontinent, he was the president of the central Muslim league. Now to be a justified candidate for this position, shouldn't he be working for the welfare of all the Muslims without being partial towards a particular ethic group? Some people here saying that Jinnah supported the independent Bengal plan, sure he supported it but it was only a tacit support, not an explicit one. Moreover, Nazimuddin, Akram Khan, Nurul Amin were ordered by Jinnah not to negotiate with the Hindu leaders. You said a Bengali leader in Jinnah's position would have done worse - I'm not sure about that. As I said earlier, Suhrawardy, Abul Hashim realized Jinnah's prejudice against Bengalis quite long before the partition and that independent Bengal plan was also in existence. But they kept it concealed just for the sake of the unity among the Muslims of the sub continent and disclosed the plan only when British parliament past the Indian independence bill. The Cabinet Mission gave them only 2 months to campaign for the independent Bengal plan, while Jinnah had some 7 years for his Pakistan movement. About the negotiation on constitution, as I said you would need to ensure strong democratic environment to implement the constitution. Even if they had successfully negotiated for the constitution it wouldn't be implemented for sure. 



> The failure which culminated in the war in 1971, created a rift between 3 main groups of Muslim populations in South Asia, Bengal Muslims, Hindustani Muslims and Pakistan Muslims, which could have been avoided.
> 
> Now the ghost of 1971 still affects future common endeavors by any of these 3 groups. *What we should learn from this is that any geopolitical decision by a country or people of a landmass has to be much more carefully thought out, to avoid this kind of catastrophic failures.*



Exactly. The formation of Pakistan with that geographical distance was not only an ambitious but a fallible one. You would only see this type of geographical distance among the imperial colonies. The political consciousness of Bengalis should also be taken into consideration. Bengalis are arguably the most politically conscious among all the ethnic groups in the subcontinent. Remember, the earliest anti-British movements started from Bengal, including the Great Sepoy Mutiny in 1857. Because of this political consciousness, it's hard to keep them under a political deprivation for long. And that's why the matter of Bangladesh and Bengalis cannot be compared with that of other unfortunate ethnic groups who are still living under a political withholding.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## extra terrestrial

double post


----------



## extra terrestrial

triple post


----------



## extra terrestrial

quadruple


----------



## BanglaBhoot

Armstrong said:


> Believe me I would want nothing more than to turn back time & have an Independent Bengal that has nothing to do with Pakistan whatsoever ! Now whether that independent Bengal gets absorbed by India, Burma or is invaded by the Martians is inconsequential to me !



If Pakistanis knew their history they would know that Pakistan would not have existed without the Bengal Muslims who gave impetus to the idea before Jinnah took up the issue. It was the Bengal Muslims who suffered from centuries of oppression from the Hindu landlords and were denied their rights. If anyone betrayed the concept of Pakistan it was the leaders in the Western half. Pakistan has had a dysfunctional political system for most of its history and its economy cannot exist without US or Chinese handouts. Nothing to be proud of there. What would Jinnah have made of Pakistan today? He would have been appalled that Pakistan requires an all powerful military just to keep the country together and that many parts of the country are no go areas controlled by Islamist or separatist groups. This is not what he envisaged in his famous post Independence speech. Yes I am sure there is a lot you can be proud of in Pakistan so keep what you have and remain the problem case of the world. It was your type of arrogant mindset that led to the break up in 1971 which the Indians easily exploited. You have been playing catch up ever since. Bangladesh is an example of the two nations theory that works even with Indians attempts to sabotage it. Bangladesh practices the two nation theory that Jinnah had hoped for. Yes we have often been side tracked by Indian lackeys but we always return to the ideal form eventually.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Tameem

MBI Munshi said:


> Bangladesh is an example of the two nations theory


----------



## Tameem

extra terrestrial said:


> First of all, Jinnah was regarded as the supreme leader of the Muslims of the subcontinent, he was the president of the central Muslim league. Now to be a justified candidate for this position, shouldn't he be working for the welfare of all the Muslims without being partial towards a *particular ethic group?*



You take West Pakistan as sole ethnic group

In the dying age of 70-72, Jinnah strive hard to get as many Muslim states (he even tried for south India as well) out of the Indian union as much he could, if he insists on something more idealist it might prolong the actual partition plan and God know what happened next. Your post miss the context entirely when you blame Jinnah of not putting more support toward united bengal, he don't oppose it what else he could.

That exactly shows he is the sole leader of the Muslims of Indian subcontinent and not just bengali muslims.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## khair_ctg

MBI Munshi said:


> Bangladesh is an example of the two nations theory that works even with



Sorry Munshi bhai, i've seen your posts usually hit the nail on it's head but this...? 

i really really wish the reality was closer to that though

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## BanglaBhoot

khair_ctg said:


> Sorry Munshi bhai, i've seen your posts usually hit the nail on it's head but this...?
> 
> i really really wish the reality was closer to that though



And what is wrong with our version of the Two Nation Theory. Yes the Awami League distorts it when it comes to power through devious means but then we go back to the original idea. It is the Two Nation Theory as declared by Jinnah immediately after Independence and which Pakistan gradually moved away from soon after. If the Two Nation Theory did not exist in Bangladesh then there would be no reason for the country to remain on the map. That has not happened in 40 years even though the Indians are trying very hard to turn Bangladesh into a vassal state or protectorate. You are assuming there is only one version of the Two Nation Theory.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## LaBong

extra terrestrial said:


> Absolutely. Since you have put forth the predictions by the British about the future of the subcontinent, let me add that they also predicted Calcutta will soon start to decline right after the partition and that's exactly what happened. The only prediction that proved to be wrong was the future economic status of East Bengal. They said East Bengal won't survive without the western part of Bengal, in contrast we not only survived but have already surpassed West Bengal by miles and on the way to surpass Pakistan.
> 
> 
> 
> About the second option, you first need to have strong democratic environment to ensure its implementation and given the events that took place between 47 and 71 and the post-71 political history of both Bangladesh and Pakistan, we can safely conclude that option 2 was never going to be successful.
> 
> 
> 
> First of all, Jinnah was regarded as the supreme leader of the Muslims of the subcontinent, he was the president of the central Muslim league. Now to be a justified candidate for this position, shouldn't he be working for the welfare of all the Muslims without being partial towards a particular ethic group? Some people here saying that Jinnah supported the independent Bengal plan, sure he supported it but it was only a tacit support, not an explicit one. Moreover, Nazimuddin, Akram Khan, Nurul Amin were ordered by Jinnah not to negotiate with the Hindu leaders. You said a Bengali leader in Jinnah's position would have done worse - I'm not sure about that. As I said earlier, Suhrawardy, Abul Hashim realized Jinnah's prejudice against Bengalis quite long before the partition and that independent Bengal plan was also in existence. But they kept it concealed just for the sake of the unity among the Muslims of the sub continent and disclosed the plan only when British parliament past the Indian independence bill. The Cabinet Mission gave them only 2 months to campaign for the independent Bengal plan, while Jinnah had some 7 years for his Pakistan movement. About the negotiation on constitution, as I said you would need to ensure strong democratic environment to implement the constitution. Even if they had successfully negotiated for the constitution it wouldn't be implemented for sure.
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly. The formation of Pakistan with that geographical distance was not only an ambitious but a fallible one. You would only see this type of geographical distance among the imperial colonies. The political consciousness of Bengalis should also be taken into consideration. Bengalis are arguably the most politically conscious among all the ethnic groups in the subcontinent. Remember, the earliest anti-British movements started from Bengal, including the Great Sepoy Mutiny in 1857. Because of this political consciousness, it's hard to keep them under a political deprivation for long. And that's why the matter of Bangladesh and Bengalis cannot be compared with that of other unfortunate ethnic groups who are still living under a political withholding.



West Bengal is ahead of Bangladesh in all social indicators as well as economic prosperity. This is after West Bengal had to withstand severe refugee crisis, first most of the hindus migrated then scores of muslims started migrating. 

While partition contributed to calcutta decline however the main reason is 30 years of communist regime and trade unionists who made most entrepreneurs to flee the state for greener pasture. Also some goi policies also affected the state along with Bihar, Jharkhand which couldn't take benefit of their proximity to coal and other mines because goi subsidised the transport cost and industries opened shop in port cities of wester and southern India.


----------



## EasyNow

Seriously, kalu_miah there are so many inconsistencies, ignorance and just plain prejudice in your "truth" that its impossible to take you seriously. 

Your contradictory statements first portray the BD independence movement as an Indian conspiracy then go on to say that the east-west Pakistan setup was never going to work anyway. Make your mind up, if it was a doomed project anyway why the conspiracy theories? Why do you need to denigrate the resulting country and the people who pushed it through?

Yes India acted in its own interest, that is their prerogative. We acted in our interest, we wanted independence and we took the help of whoever offered it - so what? Does that make Mujib an Indian Agent? Does that make all razakars into Pakistani/US agents because they opposed it? Maulana Bashani was a devoted Muslim but he supported independence - was he an Indian agent too? 

One more thing, in 1971, the USA, the "great Satan" and enemy of Islam was supporting West Pak and was anti-independence. So who was "conspiring" with whom? Do your research and don't blank out everything that doesn't fit with your "truth". 

*"Is it not possible that instead of seeking help from an enemy that hates us Muslims to the core, that we could confront and raise this issue with our "oppressor" the West Pakistani's who were fellow Muslims after all?"*

This really made me laugh! Are you serious? Were you born yesterday or, do you think you are the only Bengali with a brain? Do you think Bengalis were sitting quietly when West Pak was openly exploiting them? LOL. There was no need for language riots, there was no need for worldwide lobbying, there was no need for AL and Muslim League campaigning, there was no need to mobilise an electorate - all they had to do was ask!

If you cannot accept that BDeshi's were mistreated, exploited and suffered racism from West Pak - just take a look at this thread and consider some Pak feelings towards Bdeshi's even today. You are either blind or you have no self-respect. 

*"Again I see that demagogues and rabble rousers become leaders with little idea of geopolitics and lead nations and people to a direction with disastrous consequences for the people they lead"
*
You complain about the "disastrous consequences" for Bangladesh, but ignore the fact that we are doing far better now than ever before. For a 4 decade old state we have achieved miracles. BD's relative peace and prosperity may hurt you but please don't bend the truth to fit your story. 

You started off saying that you are not taking sides but you exposed anti-BD, anti-independence leanings in your writing.... First, you guess that Mujib was a goonda of Sohrawardhy: 

*"young Mujib was one of his goondas (I don't know for sure)"
*

But it doesn't take long for your initial guess to be transformed into 100% anti-mujib surety. 
*"True to his Gunda (goon) origin under Suhrawardy,"
*
The same goonda origin you just guessed earlier!!

Most importantly, you need to rethink your constant use of references to Muslim unity and Muslim loyalties in regards to BD's secession. All over the world Muslims are having to tackle other Muslim's who are trying to impose authority, injustice or terror on them. What does it matter if your oppressor is a fellow Muslim? Should we just ignore it? 

For any Pakistanis reading this, please do not encourage these people. This thinking reflects the warped, paranoid, conspiracy theorism of JI members everywhere. In Pak, they claim a stake in a state that they initially rallied against but all the while they undermine the state by slyly supporting TTP to fight its constitution. In BD, they sided with Pak Army in 1971 opposing independence and now they rewrite history like it was an Indian conspiracy whilst still wanting to have a stake in the country that was born from it. They are hypocrites of the highest order. 

East and West Pakistan, was a doomed marriage that ended messily. Both parties need to move on and get on with their lives - but we can never do this when members of our own countries act like they've been cheated out of a utopia. They are a disease that eats away at a nation's foundations slowly - they should be taken to task wherever they are found and they should have to accept reality like everyone else.

Finally Kalu_miah, I agree 100% that a country needs to face up to its problems. If you wrote about corruption, congestion, poverty, extremism, student politics or any other reality of BD I would support you fully. But all you are doing is revisiting the very birth of our nation and undermining it. The truth that you need to face is that independence was inevitable and it happened, be proud of it and help to build on it because if you can't stand for your country then you stand for nothing.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Zabaniyah

khair_ctg said:


> Sorry Munshi bhai, i've seen your posts usually hit the nail on it's head but this...?
> 
> i really really wish the reality was closer to that though



The two-nation theory evolved into a tri-nation theory

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Armstrong

MBI Munshi said:


> If Pakistanis knew their history they would know that Pakistan would not have existed without the Bengal Muslims who gave impetus to the idea before Jinnah took up the issue. It was the Bengal Muslims who suffered from centuries of oppression from the Hindu landlords and were denied their rights. If anyone betrayed the concept of Pakistan it was the leaders in the Western half. Pakistan has had a dysfunctional political system for most of its history and its economy cannot exist without US or Chinese handouts. Nothing to be proud of there. What would Jinnah have made of Pakistan today? He would have been appalled that Pakistan requires an all powerful military just to keep the country together and that many parts of the country are no go areas controlled by Islamist or separatist groups. This is not what he envisaged in his famous post Independence speech. Yes I am sure there is a lot you can be proud of in Pakistan so keep what you have and remain the problem case of the world. It was your type of arrogant mindset that led to the break up in 1971 which the Indians easily exploited. You have been playing catch up ever since. Bangladesh is an example of the two nations theory that works even with Indians attempts to sabotage it. Bangladesh practices the two nation theory that Jinnah had hoped for. Yes we have often been side tracked by Indian lackeys but we always return to the ideal form eventually.



Oh please one cannot talk about the untold sacrifices of the Bengali Muslims in making Pakistan & their ardent desire to see a United Bengal in the same sentence & still have the audacity of having any moral right to speak about Pakistan ! 

At any rate the Bengali Muslims like the rest of us were a sorry excuse for a people who couldn't put aside their internal bickering or could be used & abused by all & sundry alike till Muhammad Ali Jinnah came - If anyone has any right to talk about Pakistan & claim it as their own than it is that man & that man alone ! After all when he talked about 'khoteiii sikkkeiii - worthless coins' residing in his pocket, he wasn't just talking about the Muslim Leaguers on our side but also those on your side ! 

Besides it was Iqbal's Allahbad Address that kick started the movement not anything else otherwise the Muslim League before Jinnah was little more than a bunch of self-righteous & self-serving feudals ! 

If anyone is responsible for the dismemberment of Pakistan its the leaders & the people of both East Pakistan & West Pakistan who couldn't transcend their linguistic, ethnic or provincial bickering to galvanize themselves into One Nation inspite of the many challenges that were facing the country back then. 

Pakistan is doing just fine even without the American & Chinese hand-outs - You should ask your more than 2 million illegal compatriots in Pakistan more about it ! 

Jinnah, like any level headed person, would've realized that when a country next to you is in a State of War for the past 3 decades for a myriad reasons many of whom are of its own creation than naturally a fall-out of that is to expected on us ! 

At any rate you would forgive me if I laugh when a country where every mention of Quaid-e-Azam is omitted & where the start & end of History revolves around perpetual victimhood at the hands of the Big Bad West Pakistanis & even the Quaid himself is not spared the intrigues, mentions the Two Nation Theory & what Jinnah hoped to see in a State ! 

If anything it is not my arrogance but my humble & honest opinion that we are better off without you & you are better off without us - To you be your way to me mine ! '71 should've happened in '47 & no amount of protestations by the Bengalis should've been accommodated into integrating them with the rest of Pakistan !

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## extra terrestrial

MBI Munshi said:


> If Pakistanis knew their history they would know that Pakistan would not have existed without the Bengal Muslims who gave impetus to the idea before Jinnah took up the issue. It was the Bengal Muslims who suffered from centuries of oppression from the Hindu landlords and were denied their rights. If anyone betrayed the concept of Pakistan it was the leaders in the Western half. Pakistan has had a dysfunctional political system for most of its history and its economy cannot exist without US or Chinese handouts. Nothing to be proud of there. What would Jinnah have made of Pakistan today? He would have been appalled that Pakistan requires an all powerful military just to keep the country together and that many parts of the country are no go areas controlled by Islamist or separatist groups. This is not what he envisaged in his famous post Independence speech. Yes I am sure there is a lot you can be proud of in Pakistan so keep what you have and remain the problem case of the world. It was your type of arrogant mindset that led to the break up in 1971 which the Indians easily exploited. You have been playing catch up ever since. Bangladesh is an example of the two nations theory that works even with Indians attempts to sabotage it. Bangladesh practices the two nation theory that Jinnah had hoped for. Yes we have often been side tracked by Indian lackeys but we always return to the ideal form eventually.



Couldn't agree more! It was Bengalis who created Pakistan, it was Bengalis who supported Pakistan but in return we only got betrayal! However, we have maintained our friendly gesture towards Pakistan by granting Bangladeshi citizenship to the 3 million Pakistani refugees and allowing hundreds of Pakistani students every year to study in our country.



Tameem said:


> You take West Pakistan as sole ethnic group
> 
> In the dying age of 70-72, *Jinnah strive hard to get as many Muslim states (he even tried for south India as well) out of the Indian union as much he could*, if he insists on something more idealist it might prolong the actual partition plan and God know what happened next. Your post miss the context entirely when you blame Jinnah of not putting more support toward united bengal, he don't oppose it what else he could.
> 
> That exactly shows he is the sole leader of the Muslims of Indian subcontinent and not just bengali muslims.



I've already agreed to that bold part in my earlier post, Jinnah always tried to have the strongest possible Pakistan against India but he didn't care a whit if his plans would hurt of some of his fellow Muslims or not. Nevertheless, in the post I tried to imply that even though Jinnah was considered a supreme leader of the Muslims of the subcontinent, his works couldn't justify his position at all.



LaBong said:


> West Bengal is ahead of Bangladesh in all social indicators as well as economic prosperity.



In 2012 West Bengal's per capita income was 34,229 Rs or 622 USD (1 USD = 55 Rs) with a growth rate of 7.06. At this growth rate, it won't be more than 700 USD in 2013 while the per capita income of Bangladesh is 1,047 USD, big difference!

http://pbplanning.gov.in/pdf/Statewise%20GSDP%20PCI%20and%20G.R.pdf

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## BanglaBhoot

Armstrong said:


> Oh please one cannot talk about the untold sacrifices of the Bengali Muslims in making Pakistan & their ardent desire to see a United Bengal in the same sentence & still have the audacity of having any moral right to speak about Pakistan !
> 
> At any rate the Bengali Muslims like the rest of us were a sorry excuse for a people who couldn't put aside their internal bickering or could be used & abused by all & sundry alike till Muhammad Ali Jinnah came - If anyone has any right to talk about Pakistan & claim it as their own than it is that man & that man alone ! After all when he talked about 'khoteiii sikkkeiii - worthless coins' residing in his pocket, he wasn't just talking about the Muslim Leaguers on our side but also those on your side !
> 
> Besides it was Iqbal's Allahbad Address that kick started the movement not anything else otherwise the Muslim League before Jinnah was little more than a bunch of self-righteous & self-serving feudals !
> 
> If anyone is responsible for the dismemberment of Pakistan its the leaders & the people of both East Pakistan & West Pakistan who couldn't transcend their linguistic, ethnic or provincial bickering to galvanize themselves into One Nation inspite of the many challenges that were facing the country back then.
> 
> Pakistan is doing just fine even without the American & Chinese hand-outs - You should ask your more than 2 million illegal compatriots in Pakistan more about it !
> 
> Jinnah, like any level headed person, would've realized that when a country next to you is in a State of War for the past 3 decades for a myriad reasons many of whom are of its own creation than naturally a fall-out of that is to expected on us !
> 
> At any rate you would forgive me if I laugh when a country where every mention of Quaid-e-Azam is omitted & where the start & end of History revolves around perpetual victimhood at the hands of the Big Bad West Pakistanis & even the Quaid himself is not spared the intrigues, mentions the Two Nation Theory & what Jinnah hoped to see in a State !
> 
> If anything it is not my arrogance but my humble & honest opinion that we are better off without you & you are better off without us - To you be your way to me mine ! '71 should've happened in '47 & no amount of protestations by the Bengalis should've been accommodated into integrating them with the rest of Pakistan !



For some one who claims to have represented the Muslims of India Jinnah actually had very little knowledge of Muslims in the country and how they lived and what they thought or wanted. He may have galvanized the ML into adopting the Pakistan idea but it is the Bengal Muslims who ran with it. The Two Nation theory does not belong to one man or country and involves the contribution of several people and finds best cause from the suffering of the Bengal Muslims at the hands of their Hindu overlords. Something the West Pakistanis never had to face but used as an excuse for partition. I agree with you that present day Bangladesh has lost much of its history through the deliberate machinations of India and the AL but the thesis still remains the same or otherwise the country would have been rendered a vassal state or protectorate of India soon after 1971. As for how Pakistan is doing we get the latest news about the dozens of bombings, massacres and terrorist acts on an almost weekly basis. Pakistan should sort its own problems out before blaming Muslim Bengalis for the mess of its own creation which is actually its diversion away from the Two Nation Theory as envisaged by Jinnah.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Armstrong

MBI Munshi said:


> For some one who claims to have represented the Muslims of India Jinnah actually had very little knowledge of Muslims in the country and how they lived and what they thought or wanted. He may have galvanized the ML into adopting the Pakistan idea but it is the Bengal Muslims who ran with it. The Two Nation theory does not belong to one man or country and involves the contribution of several people and finds best cause from the suffering of the Bengal Muslims at the hands of their Hindu overlords. Something the West Pakistanis never had to face but used as an excuse for partition. I agree with you that present day Bangladesh has lost much of its history through the deliberate machinations of India and the AL but the thesis still remains the same or otherwise the country would have been rendered a vassal state or protectorate of India soon after 1971. As for how Pakistan is doing we get the latest news about the dozens of bombings, massacres and terrorist acts on an almost weekly basis. Pakistan should sort its won problems out before blaming Muslim Bengalis for the mess of its own creation which is actually its diversion away from the Two Nation Theory as envisaged by Jinnah.



Indeed the Bengali Muslims played their due role but let us not get ahead of ourselves for they, like every other Muslim Group in the Indian Subcontinent, ran nowhere but in circles with their 'demand' because they, like everyone else, were a leaderless & rudderless ship ! 

It was Quaid-e-Azam who gave them direction, it was Quaid-e-Azam who was the embodiment of the will & wants of millions of Muslims & it was Quaid-e-Azam in whom Iqbal placed his trust ! Iqbal - who gave the 'idea' first, before any Bengali, Punjabi, Sindhi, Hyderabadi or Baluch had an inkling of it, in his Allahabad Address of 1930. 

At any rate the birth of the Muslim League in Dhaka doesn't mean a thing except the continued perpetuation of a victim mentality ! The Lahore Resolution, the Allahabad Address & the subsequent Pakistan Resolution were all passed outside of Bengal along with most notables associated with the Muslim League at her inception (Sir Syed Ahmed Khan, Sir Muhammad Shafi, Aga Khan III) & later on (Iqbal, Jinnah, the Ali Brothers etc.) were not just Bengalis so enough of this claim to a moral right that you do not have ! 

We have given ample sacrifices for the Pakistan Movement too & the fact that just because we weren't oppressed enough before the Congress Ministries Era & the events leading up to the Partition (10 or so years before Pakistan) doesn't automatically exclude us from the laurels that are associated with the Pakistan Movement & somehow the Muslims from the Muslim Minority Provinces & those of Bengal have some fictitious first movers advantage ! 

Whatever the thesis may or may not mean the ground realities show a different picture - Iqbal, Fatima Jinnah, Quaid-e-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah, other stalwarts of the Pakistan Movement etc. - Suffice it to say everyone who isn't a Bengali gets excluded from the National Narrative of Bangladesh where we - the West Pakistanis - are evil incarnate whilst you - the poor & oppressed Bengalis - are either the dove of peace or the golden goose whose being used & abused by West Pakistanis ! Where every story is a story of neglect, abuse & victimhood & all that went before '71, unless it can somehow be connected to that victimhood, isn't part of the story anymore ! 

As far as how Pakistan is doing right now - Thank You very much we're doing well enough ! Yes there are issues....grave issues but that is because of the security paradigm & historical continuity of the '70s & the '80s along with a belligerence of World Powers in the region along with our mistakes....grave mistakes ! 

But be that as it may where did any of us blame the Muslims of Bengal for anything that we're going through ? Contrary to popular opinion - No one really gives a foOk about that here ! 

Speaking of the Muslims of Bengal - You can ask those illegal Muslims of Bengal staying here in Pakistan who they find Pakistan & if things are that bad - massacres, bombings, etc on a weekly basis why don't they go back to the Promised Land - Bangladesh ?


' @Secur - Zindaaa bhhiii haaiii yaaa nahin ? Comment hiii nahin kartaaa !

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Dillinger

Armstrong said:


> Indeed the Bengali Muslims played their due role but let us not get ahead of ourselves for they, like every other Muslim Group in the Indian Subcontinent, ran nowhere but in circles with their 'demand' because they, like everyone else, were a leaderless & rudderless ship !
> 
> It was Quaid-e-Azam who gave them direction, it was Quaid-e-Azam who was the embodiment of the will & wants of millions of Muslims & it was Quaid-e-Azam in whom Iqbal placed his trust ! Iqbal - who gave the 'idea' first, before any Bengali, Punjabi, Sindhi, Hyderabadi or Baluch had an inkling of it, in his Allahabad Address of 1930.
> 
> At any rate the birth of the Muslim League in Dhaka doesn't mean a thing except the continued perpetuation of a victim mentality ! The Lahore Resolution, the Allahabad Address & the subsequent Pakistan Resolution were all passed outside of Bengal along with most notables associated with the Muslim League at her inception (Sir Syed Ahmed Khan, Sir Muhammad Shafi, Aga Khan III) & later on (Iqbal, Jinnah, the Ali Brothers etc.) were not just Bengalis so enough of this claim to a moral right that you do not have !
> 
> We have given ample sacrifices for the Pakistan Movement too & the fact that just because we weren't oppressed enough before the Congress Ministries Era & the events leading up to the Partition (10 or so years before Pakistan) doesn't automatically exclude us from the laurels that are associated with the Pakistan Movement & somehow the Muslims from the Muslim Minority Provinces & those of Bengal have some fictitious first movers advantage !
> 
> Whatever the thesis may or may not mean the ground realities show a different picture - Iqbal, Fatima Jinnah, Quaid-e-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah, other stalwarts of the Pakistan Movement etc. - Suffice it to say everyone who isn't a Bengali gets excluded from the National Narrative of Bangladesh where we - the West Pakistanis - are evil incarnate whilst you - the poor & oppressed Bengalis - are either the dove of peace or the golden goose whose being used & abused by West Pakistanis ! Where every story is a story of neglect, abuse & victimhood & all that went before '71, unless it can somehow be connected to that victimhood, isn't part of the story anymore !
> 
> As far as how Pakistan is doing right now - Thank You very much we're doing well enough ! Yes there are issues....grave issues but that is because of the security paradigm & historical continuity of the '70s & the '80s along with a belligerence of World Powers in the region along with our mistakes....grave mistakes !
> 
> But be that as it may where did any of us blame the Muslims of Bengal for anything that we're going through ? Contrary to popular opinion - No one really gives a foOk about that here !
> 
> Speaking of the Muslims of Bengal - You can ask those illegal Muslims of Bengal staying here in Pakistan who they find Pakistan & if things are that bad - massacres, bombings, etc on a weekly basis why don't they go back to the Promised Land - Bangladesh ?
> 
> 
> ' @Secur - Zindaaa bhhiii haaiii yaaa nahin ? Comment hiii nahin kartaaa !



Oh so now you want to call in the cavalry ( @Secur ) to further torture my masoom bangla brothers!  Haven't you already done enough, jalaad!?

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## LaBong

extra terrestrial said:


> Couldn't agree more! It was Bengalis who created Pakistan, it was Bengalis who supported Pakistan but in return we only got betrayal! However, we have maintained our friendly gesture towards Pakistan by granting Bangladeshi citizenship to the 3 million Pakistani refugees and allowing hundreds of Pakistani students every year to study in our country.
> 
> 
> 
> I've already agreed to that bold part in my earlier post, Jinnah always tried to have the strongest possible Pakistan against India but he didn't care a whit if his plans would hurt of some of his fellow Muslims or not. Nevertheless, in the post I tried to imply that even though Jinnah was considered a supreme leader of the Muslims of the subcontinent, his works couldn't justify his position at all.
> 
> 
> 
> In 2012 West Bengal's per capita income was 34,229 Rs or 622 USD (1 USD = 55 Rs) with a growth rate of 7.06. At this growth rate, it won't be more than 700 USD in 2013 while the per capita income of Bangladesh is 1,047 USD, big difference!
> 
> http://pbplanning.gov.in/pdf/Statewise%20GSDP%20PCI%20and%20G.R.pdf



According to your link India's per capita income is Rs 38000 which is around 690 dollars with a conversion rate of 55 Rs = 1 dollar which is 300 dollar less than Bangladesh. 

Please don't waste my time by comparing West Bengal's per capita income in constant rate with BD per capita income in current rate, you seem to have taken a leaf out of CaPtAiN_pLaNeT's book. 

http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2013-02-07/news/36972679_1_constant-prices-income-in-real-terms-capita-income


----------



## LaBong

And also GNI is not correct measure of economic prosperity. For example if IBM opens a shop in West Bengal, the profit will be added to US GNI (since its a US based company) and West Bengal GDP. Thats why GDP is always proffered over GNI.

Anyway let's not digress anymore.


----------



## Secur

@Armstrong If you want my reply , please from next time , leave something for me to reply .  

But , honestly Bengalis are mistaken in both cases - neither they are hated in today's Pakistan nor are relevant or considered important as per the popular thought . A common Pakistani today doesn't care about Bangladesh . The fact that they have omitted the leaders of United Pakistan from their own history and lives speaks volumes about the loyalty to " Two Nation Theory " . On the other hand , Maulvi Fazlul Haq , Huseyn Shaheed Suhrawardy , Khawaja Nazimuddin amongst others still are revered people of East Pakistan in Islamabad's territory . Millions of Bangladeshi citizens who came illegally after the formation of their country live peacefully and without discrimination here , can I say the same about the " stranded Pakistanis " living under their rule ?

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Dillinger

Secur said:


> @Armstrong If you want my reply , please from next time , leave something for me to reply .
> 
> But , honestly Bengalis are mistaken in both cases - neither they are hated in today's Pakistan nor are relevant or considered important as per the popular thought . A common Pakistani today doesn't care about Bangladesh . The fact that they have omitted the leaders of United Pakistan from their own history and lives speaks volumes about the loyalty to " Two Nation Theory " . On the other hand , Maulvi Fazlul Haq , Huseyn Shaheed Suhrawardy , Khawaja Nazimuddin amongst others still are revered people of East Pakistan in Islamabad's territory . Millions of Bangladeshi citizens who came illegally after the formation of their country live peacefully and without discrimination here , can I say the same about the " stranded Pakistanis " living under their rule ?



STOP picking on my cousins! OR ELSE......

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Secur

Icewolf said:


> Can anyone tell me what happened on August 15, 1975??



Some say that the date of Mujib's assassination was a well thought and carefully chosen one intended to give a message . Maybe , it is true .

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Armstrong

@Secur - Phir Uncle sei kubbb PDF peiii Mulakaaat karvaa rahaa haiii ?  

I'm sure he cut through the 'narratives' as if they were made up of butter !  













Sh*t....butter ke reference neiii bhoook lagaaa diii !

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Saiful Islam

Secur said:


> @Armstrong If you want my reply , please from next time , leave something for me to reply .
> 
> But , honestly Bengalis are mistaken in both cases - neither they are hated in today's Pakistan nor are relevant or considered important as per the popular thought . A common Pakistani today doesn't care about Bangladesh . The fact that they have omitted the leaders of United Pakistan from their own history and lives speaks volumes about the loyalty to " Two Nation Theory " . On the other hand , Maulvi Fazlul Haq , Huseyn Shaheed Suhrawardy , Khawaja Nazimuddin amongst others still are revered people of East Pakistan in Islamabad's territory . Millions of Bangladeshi citizens who came illegally after the formation of their country live peacefully and without discrimination here , can I say the same about the " stranded Pakistanis " living under their rule ?



I agree with you 100%, I have family in Karachi who are living peacefully, although they are recent to Pakistan's Bangladeshi community. Regarding your statement about Pakistani's not caring about Bangladeshis, yes that's true but Bangladeshi's also don't care about Pakistanis. In the western world where this a lot of Pakistani and Bangladeshi diaspora both communities mingle together a lot which have resulted in stereotypes, although they are purely banter. Bangladeshis are always asking why Bangladeshis and Pakistanis are always deemed into the same group, why we have to associate with them etc? 

Bangladeshi's don't like being associated with Pakistanis or Indians or want to be deemed as "desi" infact. Sorry I'm going off note but desi is a recent phenomenon in Bangladesh and have only found out what desi means, I would think desi refers more Central/North Indians and Pakistanis. 

This is not a hate reply, I'm simply stating what based on anecdotal/life experiences.



Secur said:


> @Armstrong If you want my reply , please from next time , leave something for me to reply .
> 
> But , honestly Bengalis are mistaken in both cases - neither they are hated in today's Pakistan nor are relevant or considered important as per the popular thought . A common Pakistani today doesn't care about Bangladesh . The fact that they have omitted the leaders of United Pakistan from their own history and lives speaks volumes about the loyalty to " Two Nation Theory " . On the other hand , Maulvi Fazlul Haq , Huseyn Shaheed Suhrawardy , Khawaja Nazimuddin amongst others still are revered people of East Pakistan in Islamabad's territory . Millions of Bangladeshi citizens who came illegally after the formation of their country live peacefully and without discrimination here , can I say the same about the " stranded Pakistanis " living under their rule ?



And tbh, new generations Bangladeshis have no hate towards Pakistanis, most case they've never met a Pakistani. I've lived in a Pakistani and Bangladeshi area and can tell differences from a mile away. Bangladeshis are more football lovers, while the Pakistani youth love Cricket. Pakistanis are more established in the Grocery business, while Bangladeshis are established in the restaurant business that's not to say Pakistanis don't have restaurants because they do. Bangladeshis are more Deobandi, although the Bengali's don't regard this Deobandi/Brelvi stuff that much it's more prevalent in the Pakistani masjids. Both communities are at peace, who ever is trying to cause disunity amongst is it's the Indians where letting mushreek ***** us over...Even now on this very forum.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Secur

@Saiful Islam 

Thank you , mate . My father - a Bihari personally has friends from the former East Pakistan who either migrated before creation of Bangladesh or after it , he still gets some discount from his old tailor in Orangi Town , Karachi speaking fluent Bengali  . In my personal opinion , East Bengal should have been a separate country from the start as envisioned by our great leaders . The younger generation is different , too different , I agree . We simply do not care about anyone's race/ethnicity/religion compared to our elders . I am glad to hear that the Pakistani and Bangladeshi communities peacefully coexist in Western countries/abroad . I am aware of the fact that this isn't a " hate reply " , the tone and the language speaks for itself , my friend .

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## extra terrestrial

Secur said:


> @Armstrong If you want my reply , please from next time , leave something for me to reply .
> 
> But , honestly Bengalis are mistaken in both cases - neither they are hated in today's Pakistan nor are relevant or considered important as per the popular thought . A common Pakistani today doesn't care about Bangladesh . The fact that they have omitted the leaders of United Pakistan from their own history and lives speaks volumes about the loyalty to " Two Nation Theory " . On the other hand , Maulvi Fazlul Haq , Huseyn Shaheed Suhrawardy , Khawaja Nazimuddin amongst others still are revered people of East Pakistan in Islamabad's territory . *Millions of Bangladeshi citizens who came illegally after the formation of their country live peacefully and without discrimination here , can I say the same about the " stranded Pakistanis " living under their rule ?*



Those illegal Bangladeshis also include the Biharis who were repatriated after 1971. 



> Much of the Bangladeshi-origin population also includes the thousands of stateless Biharis (called Stranded Pakistanis) who were allowed resettlement in Pakistan after the 1971 war in Bangladesh.
> 
> Bengalis in Pakistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



About the condition of the stranded Pakistanis (many of whom have their roots in present day Pakistan), it would be a mixed review. Most of them have accepted the Bangladeshi citizenship and are living quite peacefully. However, some (about 400,00) still refuse to accept the citizenship and hence found their way in those refugee camps. But it's beyond doubt that they are living in a far better condition than their counterparts in Pakistan. 



> Bihari Colony is now a slum where most of the apartments are occupied by local Punjabis. Three narrow lanes are still inhabited by the Biharis. And many of the houses on those streets are in ruins.
> 
> Repatriated or stranded in Bangladesh, Biharis still divided and without a home | The National



Some Pakistani Biharis also started to migrate to Bangladesh because of the poor living conditions there.



> Samad said that he found a place on the outskirts of Karachi, and a job. But the money was not enough to live on. Neither did he feel welcome in the southern port city where simmering ethnic tensions among different migrant communities have repeatedly erupted in gun battles that have killed several thousands and brought Pakistan's economic life to a standstill.
> 
> His illusions about a better life in Pakistan shattered, he has come back to Bangladesh, and is desperately hunting for some work.
> 
> Rediff On The NeT: Bangla Biharis weary of wait to migrate to Pakistan

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Saiful Islam

Secur said:


> @Saiful Islam
> 
> Thank you , mate . My father - a Bihari personally has friends from the former East Pakistan who either migrated before creation of Bangladesh or after it , he still gets some discount from his old tailor in Orangi Town , Karachi speaking fluent Bengali  . In my personal opinion , East Bengal should have been a separate country from the start as envisioned by our great leaders . The younger generation is different , too different , I agree . We simply do not care about anyone's race/ethnicity/religion compared to our elders . I am glad to hear that the Pakistani and Bangladeshi communities peacefully coexist in Western countries/abroad . I am aware of the fact that this isn't a " hate reply " , the tone and the language speaks for itself , my friend .




Haha, Bangladeshis are very good tailors especially our Granddads! In the UK we have more things to worry about than old quarrels in the past, we have threats such as the far right English Defence League who march into Muslim dominated areas chanting anti-Islamic things, attacking our Muslimah, attempting to attack our Masjids, thus making the Bengali and Pakistani youth stick together to beat them up. Maybe where not ready now, but I still believe in a Caliphate state, one ummah under the banner of Islam. Even though we say it was for the better Pakistan splitting, we have to acknowledge that it was a serious blow to the ummah. A country of more than 300 million muslims, I think it's wrong to say that a 2 nation theory wouldn't work, why won't it work? If we have Islam, then it shouldn't and that's what we were all lacking.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## BanglaBhoot

Armstrong said:


> At any rate the birth of the Muslim League in Dhaka doesn't mean a thing except the continued perpetuation of a victim mentality ! The Lahore Resolution, the Allahabad Address & the subsequent Pakistan Resolution were all passed outside of Bengal along with most notables associated with the Muslim League at her inception (Sir Syed Ahmed Khan, Sir Muhammad Shafi, Aga Khan III) & later on (Iqbal, Jinnah, the Ali Brothers etc.) were not just Bengalis so enough of this claim to a moral right that you do not have !



And this omission to suitably give recognition to the Bengal Muslims still rancours today ... Why were not the important decisions made in Bengal where the urgency for Pakistan was greatest? 



Armstrong said:


> We have given ample sacrifices for the Pakistan Movement too & the fact that just because we weren't oppressed enough before the Congress Ministries Era & the events leading up to the Partition (10 or so years before Pakistan) doesn't automatically exclude us from the laurels that are associated with the Pakistan Movement & somehow the Muslims from the Muslim Minority Provinces & those of Bengal have some fictitious first movers advantage !



The movement for Pakistan in Bengal arose from real grievances and not politically opportunistic demands made in the West. 



Armstrong said:


> Whatever the thesis may or may not mean the ground realities show a different picture - Iqbal, Fatima Jinnah, Quaid-e-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah, other stalwarts of the Pakistan Movement etc. - Suffice it to say everyone who isn't a Bengali gets excluded from the National Narrative of Bangladesh where we - the West Pakistanis - are evil incarnate whilst you - the poor & oppressed Bengalis - are either the dove of peace or the golden goose whose being used & abused by West Pakistanis ! Where every story is a story of neglect, abuse & victimhood & all that went before '71, unless it can somehow be connected to that victimhood, isn't part of the story anymore !



That is a position I do not subscribe to and have never advocated. 



Armstrong said:


> But be that as it may where did any of us blame the Muslims of Bengal for anything that we're going through ? Contrary to popular opinion - No one really gives a foOk about that here !



And thats why you spend so much time arguing over this issue on PDF??? 



Armstrong said:


> Speaking of the Muslims of Bengal - You can ask those illegal Muslims of Bengal staying here in Pakistan who they find Pakistan & if things are that bad - massacres, bombings, etc on a weekly basis why don't they go back to the Promised Land - Bangladesh ?



I hear the most qualified are going to India. Isn't there a thread about doctors from Sindh emigrating to India?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Armstrong

MBI Munshi said:


> And this omission to suitably give recognition to the Bengal Muslims still rancours today ... Why were not the important decisions made in Bengal where the urgency for Pakistan was greatest?


 
What decision did you want to be made in Bengal ? This ludicrous centricism of 'me....me....me' is what harmed the country in the first place ! 




MBI Munshi said:


> The movement for Pakistan in Bengal arose from real grievances and not politically opportunistic demands made in the West.



Real Grievances ? Real Grievances as in you hadn't any land & were discriminated against at ? What do you think happened in Sindh & in other Muslim Minority Provinces ? What do you think happened in the Punjab where most of the Intelligentsia & most certainly the Business Class wasn't from amongst us ! 

There is a historical context to the Bengal thing starting from the Partition & then the Reversal of Bengal's Partitioning in the early 1900s when real bona fide political awakening kicked in but to assert that somehow because the Bengalis were worse-off in their own land...the rest of us used to bathe in milk & honey every day & any demand from us was mere political opportunism is naivete at best or a toxic & most assuredly false vaingloriousness at the very worst ! 



MBI Munshi said:


> That is a position I do not subscribe to and have never advocated.



If only exceptions were the rule ! 



MBI Munshi said:


> And thats why you spend so much time arguing over this issue on PDF???



I didn't open a single thread on this issue but in my time here I've seen a thread on it popping up every now & then & not many of them are by Pakistanis ! 

At any rate if my Motherland is talked about with toxic aspersions cast against it - Then its personal ! 

However show me a single Bengali that I quoted here on this thread where I've initiated the conversation ? I quoted a Pakistani. 



MBI Munshi said:


> I hear the most qualified are going to India. Isn't there a thread about doctors from Sindh emigrating to India?



Yes apparently some Hindu Doctors from Sindh are fleeing the country, however that is true or otherwise is moot ! But I certainly wouldn't be surprised if it turns out to be true - Wars & at that wars with significant religious overtones have a habit of doing that to the minorities - Deplorable & Most Condemnable ! 

But none of the Pakistani Hindus from Sindh are one of the 2 million plus Illegal Bengalis in Pakistan !

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Vinod2070

Ladai ladai maaf karo...

Doggy ki **** saaf karo.


----------



## INDIC

Tameem said:


> You take West Pakistan as sole ethnic group
> 
> In the dying age of 70-72, *Jinnah strive hard to get as many Muslim states (he even tried for south India as well) out of the Indian union as much he could*.



There was no Muslim majority state in South India. He wanted some Hindu majority states to join Muslim homeland of Pakistan irrespective of his two nation theory.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## MINK

extra terrestrial said:


> In 2012 *West Bengal's per capita income was 34,229* Rs or 622 USD (1 USD = 55 Rs) with a growth rate of 7.06. At this growth rate, it won't be more than 700 USD in 2013 while the per capita income of Bangladesh is 1,047 USD, big difference!
> 
> http://pbplanning.gov.in/pdf/Statewise%20GSDP%20PCI%20and%20G.R.pdf



*That amount Rs 34,229 had been measured under Constant Price*. If you go by that method then Bangladesh's per capita income is 25,994 Taka under constant price.

So, the result under US dollar is:-

*West Bengal :- $ 557 ( $1 = INR 61.5)*

*Bangladesh :- $ 333 ( $1 = BDT 78)* 

Bangladesh Gross domestic product per capita, constant prices - National currency | World Economic Outlook (IMF)


----------



## extra terrestrial

MINK said:


> *That amount Rs 34,229 had been measured under Constant Price*. If you go by that method then Bangladesh's per capita income is 25,994 Taka under constant price.
> 
> So, the result under US dollar is:-
> 
> *West Bengal :- $ 557 ( $1 = INR 61.5)*
> 
> *Bangladesh :- $ 333 ( $1 = BDT 78)*
> 
> Bangladesh Gross domestic product per capita, constant prices - National currency | World Economic Outlook (IMF)



LOL @ the link! At least use a reliable site to troll! According to IMF, Bangladesh's GDP per capita at constant prices stands at 41,981.596 taka or 538.22 USD. However, the calculation is based on our previous base year that is 1994/95, the figure is likely to increase when it will be rebased on our current base year (2005/06), as happened with the GDP per capita on current prices. Note: the GSDP per capita of West Bengal is based on 2004/05.

Report for Selected Countries and Subjects

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## khair_ctg

Secur said:


> @Armstrong If you want my reply , please from next time , leave something for me to reply .
> 
> But , honestly Bengalis are mistaken in both cases - neither they are hated in today's Pakistan nor are relevant or considered important as per the popular thought . A common Pakistani today doesn't care about Bangladesh . The fact that they have omitted the leaders of United Pakistan from their own history and lives speaks volumes about the loyalty to " Two Nation Theory " . On the other hand , Maulvi Fazlul Haq , Huseyn Shaheed Suhrawardy , Khawaja Nazimuddin amongst others still are revered people of East Pakistan in Islamabad's territory . Millions of Bangladeshi citizens who came illegally after the formation of their country live peacefully and without discrimination here , can I say the same about the " stranded Pakistanis " living under their rule ?



you have cited just one example of how the aspiration of a separate Muslim homeland (call it "two-nation theory" or whatever) is constantly hijacked by BAL elements in our country ( @MBI Munshi ) by flat out denying the world existed before 1971. the denial of the sacrifice of countless Non-Bengalis (politician or not) and even Bengalis in making the borders of now-Bangladesh in '47 results in denying the reason now-BD came into existence at all (but the acknowledgement is an unavoidable prerequisite for any "three-nation theory" @Loki).

by the way, Pakistan is at least 'relevant' to me and most Bangladeshis I know. in the Bangladeshi and Pakistani communities here in the States the bond is quite visible..

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## Tameem

khair_ctg said:


> you have cited just one example of how the aspiration of a separate Muslim homeland (call it "two-nation theory" or whatever) is constantly hijacked by BAL elements in our country ( @MBI Munshi ) by flat out denying the world existed before 1971. the denial of the sacrifice of countless Non-Bengalis (politician or not) and even Bengalis in making the borders of now-Bangladesh in '47 results in denying the reason now-BD came into existence at all (but the acknowledgement is an unavoidable prerequisite for any "three-nation theory" @Loki).



So, by not accepting Non Bengali (Specially Jinnah's) major contribution in making of Pakistan and thus subsequently of Bangladesh.....who is in denial mode?, whose eyes are closed?..........PDF Bengalis acknowledge your conscious.!

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Zabaniyah

khair_ctg said:


> you have cited just one example of how the aspiration of a separate Muslim homeland (call it "two-nation theory" or whatever) is constantly hijacked by BAL elements in our country ( @MBI Munshi ) by flat out denying the world existed before 1971. the denial of the sacrifice of countless Non-Bengalis (politician or not) and even Bengalis in making the borders of now-Bangladesh in '47 results in denying the reason now-BD came into existence at all (but the acknowledgement is an unavoidable prerequisite for any "three-nation theory" @Loki).
> 
> by the way, Pakistan is at least 'relevant' to me and most Bangladeshis I know. in the Bangladeshi and Pakistani communities here in the States the bond is quite visible..



Simply put it, if there was no Pakistan, there would have been no Bangladesh. Talking about alternate realities is a complete waste of time. 

There are various books that are part of secondary school curriculum in Bangladesh. Of-course, they were approved by the ruling BAL. They do mention and support the two-nation theory by stating details of how Muslim-Bengalis wanted a Pakistan to avoid "Hindu-domination". Suffice it to say, Mujib did support the two-nation theory. 

The West Pakistani leadership did not accurately acknowledge the security matters in East Pakistan. Especially after instigating an insurgency in north east India during the 60's. East Pakistanis alternatively thought that a new nation "Bangladesh" can manage its own security. Part of why they wanted to break away. 

Now as far as these present "Bengali-nationalists" go, yeah they are a bit of a mental case. As stated here by an AL supporter: 
http://www.defence.pk/forums/members-club/282704-bible-scholar-makes-explosive-allegation-about-jesus-9.html#post4869156

It appears that these conspiracy theories about AL loyalists being anti-Muslim may indeed be true. How it is so remains to be seen. Seeing how Bangladeshis generals can get slaughtered by their own soldiers, and this^, security is still a far away dream.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Anubis

Loki said:


> Simply put it, if there was no Pakistan, there would have been no Bangladesh. Talking about alternate realities is a complete waste of time.
> 
> There are various books that are part of secondary school curriculum in Bangladesh. Of-course, they were approved by the ruling BAL. They do mention and support the two-nation theory by stating details of how Muslim-Bengalis wanted a Pakistan to avoid "Hindu-domination". Suffice it to say, Mujib did support the two-nation theory.
> 
> The West Pakistani leadership did not accurately acknowledge the security matters in East Pakistan. Especially after instigating an insurgency in north east India during the 60's. East Pakistanis alternatively thought that a new nation "Bangladesh" can manage its own security. Part of why they wanted to break away.
> 
> Now as far as these present "Bengali-nationalists" go, yeah they are a bit of a mental case. As stated here by an AL supporter:
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/members-club/282704-bible-scholar-makes-explosive-allegation-about-jesus-9.html#post4869156
> 
> It appears that these conspiracy theories about AL loyalists being anti-Muslim may indeed be true. How it is so remains to be seen. Seeing how Bangladeshis generals can get slaughtered by their own soldiers, and this^, security is still a far away dream.



I hope its the other guy you are talking about in the link!


----------



## Zabaniyah

Anubis said:


> I hope its the other guy you are talking about in the link!



There's "no other guy". 

Some people simply have no clue as to what they are talking about

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Anubis

Loki said:


> There's "no other guy".
> 
> Some people simply have no clue as to what they are talking about



You should have seen him proposing giving money to the poor instead of sacrificing animals...I still don't see how they are comparable!

I got a question for you....since Bhutto and other WP leaders knew about Op.Searchlight before hand how come Mujib was not notified by his supporters in the West?And If Mujib was notified how come it came as a surprise for the people...why didn't he tell everyone to be ready?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Dillinger

Anubis said:


> You should have seen him proposing giving money to the poor instead of sacrificing animals...I still don't see how they are comparable!
> 
> I got a question for you....since Bhutto and other WP leaders knew about Op.Searchlight before hand how come Mujib was not notified by his supporters in the West?And If Mujib was notified how come it came as a surprise for the people...why didn't he tell everyone to be ready?



Start a movement for re-integration so that I can use it as an excuse to bomb you to kingdom come.


----------



## Anubis

Dillinger said:


> Start a movement for re-integration so that I can use it as an excuse to bomb you to kingdom come.



If we ever plan any reintegration it will be with WB not WP!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Dillinger

Anubis said:


> If we ever plan any reintegration it will be with WB not WP!



Oh hell no! I have a rather large haveli in Dokhineshwar and I ain't having you lot prance about it. I'll eat the lot of you raw, mark my words. You're welcome to visit though.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Tameem

Anubis said:


> If we ever plan any reintegration it will be with WB not WP!



That is the basic mistake, Bengali Muslims keep repeating in last 100+ years.

I mean, if you so proud of Bengali Renaissance why flip flop towards two nation theory in the first place and than vice verse. Either the Soharwardy's demands for separate electorate with regards to WB leaders was totally wrong or the very basic idea of United Bengal itself, both can't be correct simultaneously.

You continuously ride on two boats believing you outsmarting *everyone*, infact it's only common sense that is in loose.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Anubis

Tameem said:


> That is the basic mistake, Bengali Muslims keep repeating in last 100+ years.
> 
> I mean, if you so proud of Bengali Renaissance why flip flop towards two nation theory in the first place and than vice verse. Either the Soharwardy's demands for separate electorate with regards to WB leaders was totally wrong or the very basic idea of United Bengal itself, both can't be correct simultaneously.
> 
> You continuously ride on two boats believing you outsmarting *everyone*, infact it's only common sense that is in loose.



What does Bengali Renaissance have anything to do with it??I can be proud of whatever the hell I want to.I am proud of my country and my culture.WE never made any mistake because ultimately we got what we wanted.We wanted a Muslim majority Bengali country...And that is what we have.We had two options in 47 one was 'United Bengal' and the other was 'Pakistan'.Staying with India was not an option for us.As 'United Bengal' was not possible we opted for 'Pakistan'.We WON and got Pakistan.in 71 we had two options stay with Pakistan or separate and make independent Bangladesh.We WON again and got Bangladesh.Now we have stable homogeneous country.We do not need to use military strength to hold it together.Because everyone here conforms to the same identity.Unlike both of our former brethren who need some degree of military brute force to keep their country together!

There is no absolute right or wrong in politics.There is only what you can do and what you cannot do.Pakistan was a right thing to do in the context of that time.200 years later it might not be true.

If you blame Bengalis for having contradicting views you should look at the the history of Pakistan.During the 30s Jinnah and Iqbal also contradicted each other.Iqbal was opting for partition whereas Jinnah was trying to reach an agreement with Congress.Ideology has no place in politics.If Hindus and Muslims could stay peacefully together do you think Iqbal would wish for a separate state?Absolutely not.People's views are shaped by what happens around him not what he grows up with.Iqbal or Jinnah did not grow up with the idea of Pakistan.The conformed to it when they saw there was no other option.Because the same guy who wrote Sare Jahan se accha Hindustan hamara was also preaching to break up the same Hindustan.

We Bengalis are no different.Our political visions and wishes are a product of what we were going through!

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Dillinger

Anubis said:


> What does Bengali Renaissance have anything to do with it??I can be proud of whatever the hell I want to.I am proud of my country and my culture.WE never made any mistake because ultimately we got what we wanted.We wanted a Muslim majority Bengali country...And that is what we have.We had two options in 47 one was 'United Bengal' and the other was 'Pakistan'.Staying with India was not an option for us.As 'United Bengal' was not possible we opted for 'Pakistan'.We WON and got Pakistan.in 71 we had two options stay with Pakistan or separate and make independent Bangladesh.We WON again and got Bangladesh.Now we have stable homogeneous country.We do not need to use military strength to hold it together.Because everyone here conforms to the same identity.Unlike both of our former brethren who need some degree of military brute force to keep their country together!
> 
> There is no absolute right or wrong in politics.There is only what you can do and what you cannot do.Pakistan was a right thing to do in the context of that time.200 years later it might not be true.
> 
> If you blame Bengalis for having contradicting views you should look at the the history of Pakistan.During the 30s Jinnah and Iqbal also contradicted each other.Iqbal was opting for partition whereas Jinnah was trying to reach an agreement with Congress.Ideology has no place in politics.If Hindus and Muslims could stay peacefully together do you think Iqbal would wish for a separate state?Absolutely not.People's views are shaped by what happens around him not what he grows up with.Iqbal or Jinnah did not grow up with the idea of Pakistan.The conformed to it when they saw there was no other option.Because the same guy who wrote Sare Jahan se accha Hindustan hamara was also preaching to break up the same Hindustan.
> 
> We Bengalis are no different.Our political visions and wishes are a product of what we were going through!



You're an under-rated poster. At the end of the day right and wrong in this context is subjective, if Pakistan could have held Bangladesh with military force in their POV they would very much be right in terms of protecting the integrity of their nation as were the MB in waging war against an oppressive regime (although, strictly speaking they were secessionists and Pakistan did have the right to hunt them down with an acceptable margin of collateral, where they went wrong was the deliberate and not incidental targeting of non-combatants and political dissidents). At the end of the day the power *still* (after whatever upheaval occurs is done and over with) administering the region decides what's right and what isn't.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Ayush

Anubis said:


> both of our former brethren



we are still brothers


----------



## Anubis

Dillinger said:


> You're an under-rated poster. At the end of the day right and wrong in this context is subjective, if Pakistan could have held Bangladesh with military force in their POV they would very much be right in terms of protecting the integrity of their nation as were the MB in waging war against an oppressive regime (although, strictly speaking they were secessionists and Pakistan did have the right to hunt them down with an acceptable margin of collateral, where they went wrong was the deliberate and not incidental targeting of non-combatants and political dissidents). At the end of the day the power *still* (after whatever upheaval occurs is done and over with) administering the region decides what's right and what isn't.



I understand where you are coming from.And I totally agree with you.But I was probably being more of an idealistic democrat who thinks people's will determines the the course of a nation rather than a handful of people who rule it(I know the reality is completely opposite) when I was talking about absolute right and wrong.I know you are right but I was trying to talk as a powerless guy talking to another powerless guy!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Dillinger

Anubis said:


> I understand where you are coming from.And I totally agree with you.But I was probably being more of an idealistic democrat who thinks people's will determines the the course of a nation rather than a handful of people who rule it(I know the reality is completely opposite) when I was talking about absolute right and wrong.I know you are right but I was trying to talk as a powerless guy talking to another powerless guy!



We are hardly powerless, after all we are important citizens of Naswaristan. 

Obviously, in terms of absolute right all demands for freedom against any perceived oppression are right and indeed should be accommodated, unfortunately no nation can ever do that. Pakistan had two choices, fight its own people OR accommodate the demands of its majority (the populace of East Pakistan) and let the legitimate winner of the elections (Mujib) form the government. They chose wrong- in an effort to retain the base of power and decision making authority in the hands of West Pakistan they rendered the essential right (the right to elect one's leaders) of the populace of the Eastern half null and void. In fact even the "6 point" fiasco could have been avoided had they addressed these issues early on and maintained a modicum of good faith, after which the situation could still have been salvaged if they had actually done justice to their doctrine of defending Dhaka on the western borders- we had all but denuded the western borders in order to man the the NE against a prospective Chinese intervention (despite winter having set in) and had engaged a rather large number of troops to execute the blitz in EP. Had their forces in the west shown themselves to be any better than Niazi, who is much maligned, and taken advantage of the situation to annex sufficient Indian territory by defeating our holding corps they could have gotten us to pull back- since we were after all in violation of the IB itself and therefore they would have been justified in breaching the IB as well to use annexed territory as leverage. There were a LOT of missteps on their part, a lot of right steps on Bangladesh's part which went into making 71. Although at the end of the day India and Bangladesh did not find the best of neighbors in each other- lamentable but for now one must live with that.

Personally- they should have unleashed @Armstrong on the battlefield.


----------



## Zabaniyah

Anubis said:


> You should have seen him proposing giving money to the poor instead of sacrificing animals...I still don't see how they are comparable!



If you go to Iran or Malaysia, or any non-South Asian Muslim-majority country, they don't sacrifice animals every single year like what we do. 

What he said was not wrong per say. Though how he said it was misinformed. 



> I got a question for you....since Bhutto and other WP leaders knew about Op.Searchlight before hand how come Mujib was not notified by his supporters in the West?And If Mujib was notified how come it came as a surprise for the people...why didn't he tell everyone to be ready?



Do you think Mujib was at every meeting? Do you think he had any support in the West? From the WP perspective, it was an intelligence failure of epic proportions. Perhaps the biggest one in history. 

I recall reading about a Buddhist monk after Ramu riots and mass vandalism last year. 

He said that he secretly sheltered Muslim Bengalis from the onslaught of WP soldiers. The WP soldiers treated Chakmas favorably due to the fact that the Chinese provided Pakistan with toys and diplomatic support during the 71' war. Since Chakmas look like Chinese people, the Chakmas are therefore a part of China according to their logic. 

I was left flabbergasted and intrigued.......



Dillinger said:


> Start a movement for re-integration so that I can use it as an excuse to bomb you to kingdom come.



Oh dada, please have mercy

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Dillinger

Loki said:


> If you go to Iran or Malaysia, or any non-South Asian Muslim-majority country, they don't sacrifice animals every single year like what we do.
> 
> What he said was not wrong per say. Though how he said it was misinformed.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you think Mujib was at every meeting? Do you think he had any support in the West? From the WP perspective, it was an intelligence failure of epic proportions. Perhaps the biggest one in history.
> 
> I recall reading about a Buddhist monk after Ramu riots and mass vandalism last year.
> 
> He said that he secretly sheltered Muslim Bengalis from the onslaught of WP soldiers. The WP soldiers treated Chakmas favorably due to the fact that the Chinese provided Pakistan with toys and diplomatic support during the 71' war. Since Chakmas look like Chinese people, the Chakmas are therefore a part of China according to their logic.
> 
> I was left flabbergasted and intrigued.......
> 
> 
> 
> Oh dada, please have mercy



Bro, @Hyperion and me decided LONG back that you, BDf and Anubis (a recent consideration) shall be spared, left unharmed and elevated post tumult.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Hyperion

You made sense all the way, and then you HAD to go on and say "but every Muslim country in this world"! 



Xestan said:


> I hope in future, we can be unified again, not just Bangladesh but every Muslim country in this world, because that's where lies our strength.


----------



## Anubis

Dillinger said:


> We are hardly powerless, after all we are important citizens of Naswaristan.
> 
> Obviously, in terms of absolute right all demands for freedom against any perceived oppression are right and indeed should be accommodated, unfortunately no nation can ever do that. Pakistan had two choices, fight its own people OR accommodate the demands of its majority (the populace of East Pakistan) and let the legitimate winner of the elections (Mujib) form the government. They chose wrong- in an effort to retain the base of power and decision making authority in the hands of West Pakistan they rendered the essential right (the right to elect one's leaders) of the populace of the Eastern half null and void. In fact even the "6 point" fiasco could have been avoided had they addressed these issues early on and maintained a modicum of good faith, after which the situation could still have been salvaged if they had actually done justice to their doctrine of defending Dhaka on the western borders- we had all but denuded the western borders in order to man the the NE against a prospective Chinese intervention (despite winter having set in) and had engaged a rather large number of troops to execute the blitz in EP. Had their forces in the west shown themselves to be any better than Niazi, who is much maligned, and taken advantage of the situation to annex sufficient Indian territory by defeating our holding corps they could have gotten us to pull back- since we were after all in violation of the IB itself and therefore they would have been justified in breaching the IB as well to use annexed territory as leverage. There were a LOT of missteps on their part, a lot of right steps on Bangladesh's part which went into making 71. Although at the end of the day India and Bangladesh did not find the best of neighbors in each other- lamentable but for now one must live with that.



But Pakistan launched a preemptive strike on 3rd December on India.Since India and Pakistan were already at a state of war was the invasion of EP a violation of IB??

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Dillinger

Hyperion said:


> You made sense all the way, and then you HAD to go on and say "but every Muslim country in this world"!



You do realize that you cannot pick and choose, the edicts regarding the Ummah are rather straight forward and do not provide for any exigencies- something that @Armstrong did confirm albeit he still registered his unwillingness to support the idea of an Ummah in the current context and under the prevailing conditions (which is EXACTLY what he should not be doing, since there is no context enumerated in the Koran which provides an out- again something he confirmed- dunno how accurate he was/is).

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Anubis

Loki said:


> If you go to Iran or Malaysia, or any non-South Asian Muslim-majority country, they don't sacrifice animals every single year like what we do.
> 
> What he said was not wrong per say. Though how he said it was misinformed.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you think Mujib was at every meeting? Do you think he had any support in the West? From the WP perspective, it was an intelligence failure of epic proportions. Perhaps the biggest one in history.
> 
> I recall reading about a Buddhist monk after Ramu riots and mass vandalism last year.
> 
> He said that he secretly sheltered Muslim Bengalis from the onslaught of WP soldiers. The WP soldiers treated Chakmas favorably due to the fact that the Chinese provided Pakistan with toys and diplomatic support during the 71' war. Since Chakmas look like Chinese people, the Chakmas are therefore a part of China according to their logic.
> 
> I was left flabbergasted and intrigued.......
> 
> 
> 
> Oh dada, please have mercy



There were some small parties National Awami party and others in the west that supported Mujib....also we had some Bengali soldiers in the West....I just can't understand how none of us knew what was going to happen on 25th March.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Hyperion

He is literally a ButtHead, what would he know? You need to consult with Aalim-e-Deen ve Falkiyat, Prof. Dr. Hyperion, regarding such matters. Allah SWT does provide a way-out from Ummah concept, and that is to accept the edicts of Ameer-ul-Momineen Hyperion, blindly, because he knows BETTER. 



Dillinger said:


> You do realize that you cannot pick and choose, the edicts regarding the Ummah are rather straight forward and do not provide for any exigencies- something that @Armstrong did confirm albeit he still registered his unwillingness to support the idea of an Ummah in the current context and under the prevailing conditions (which is EXACTLY what he should not be doing, since there is no context enumerated in the Koran which provides an out- again something he confirmed- dunno how accurate he was/is).

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Zabaniyah

Anubis said:


> There were some small parties National Awami party and others in the west that supported Mujib....also we had some Bengali soldiers in the West....I just can't understand how none of us knew what was going to happen on 25th March.



Not all Bengalis were loyal to the the movement. Some remained loyal to Pakistan. Maybe that's why. 

Oh, and here's the article about the old monk's tale:
'Please save my future generation'

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Dillinger

Anubis said:


> But Pakistan launched a preemptive strike on 3rd December on India.Since India and Pakistan were already at a state of war was the invasion of EP a violation of IB??



Lets not be coy, we were neck deep in Muktis and spec ops operating in EP. They would have to be brain-dead not to attack us, the problem is (as @Hyperion will tell you) that grand strategy and realizing that warfare must be conducted after having considered the conditions that populate the macrocosm (as in aided by HEAVY diplomacy, AS IN convincing the world that it WAS NOT a preemptive attack but rather a result of India's activities in EP, AS IN convincing the world (by whatever means possible) that India indeed was breaching Pakistan's sovereignty (which btw required less proof and more of promoting one's narrative)) are lost on the top tier leadership of Pakistan (present and past). Had they mobilized world opinion and promoted their narrative, thereby painting us as a state harboring/aiding non-state actors/secessionists, then they would have met lesser resistance in ensuring that their actions would be tolerated and perhaps India's actions even condemned. <Gist of the story, you can kill a few baniyas, roll over their kings, hurt their jawaans BUT at the end of the day they will get you back in A BIG WAY.>

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Zabaniyah

Dillinger said:


> Bro, @Hyperion and me decided LONG back that you, BDf and Anubis (a recent consideration) shall be spared, left unharmed and elevated post tumult.



Leave us alone....

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Dillinger

Hyperion said:


> He is literally a ButtHead, what would he know? You need to consult with Aalim-e-Deen ve Falkiyat, Prof. Dr. Hyperion, regarding such matters. Allah SWT does provide a way-out from Ummah concept, and that is to accept the edicts of Ameer-ul-Momineen Hyperion, blindly, because he knows BETTER.



This would qualify as blasphemy, yes? @Loki @Anubis.


----------



## Anubis

Dillinger said:


> This would qualify as blasphemy, yes? @Loki @Anubis.



Not directly....BUT if you can pay me enough I could 'interpret' some laws to make it blasphemy and issue a fatwa....so how do you want his head...whole or minced?

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Anubis

Dillinger said:


> This would qualify as blasphemy, yes? @Loki @Anubis.



Not directly....BUT if you can pay me enough I could 'interpret' some laws to make it blasphemy and issue a fatwa....so how do you want his head...whole or minced?


----------



## Dillinger

Loki said:


> Leave us alone....



Bhaier jone ektuo prem nei? Amra to tomake bhishon bhalo bashi- as LONG as you stay on your side that is.  The same way we have a deep and abiding love for our Pakistani brothers- the very reason that me and Buttsy get along so well.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Dillinger

Anubis said:


> Not directly....BUT if you can pay me enough I could 'interpret' some laws to make it blasphemy and issue a fatwa....so how do you want his head...whole or minced?


 @Loki, you concur? Can this be done? @Hyperion I will obviously want your head whole, it shall be the centerpiece of my curio cabinet.


----------



## Zabaniyah

Dillinger said:


> This would qualify as blasphemy, yes? @Loki @Anubis.



Hmm....nah.... 



Anubis said:


> Not directly....BUT if you can pay me enough I could 'interpret' some laws to make it blasphemy and issue a fatwa....so how do you want his head...whole or minced?



You bloody mercenary  

Hey, mercenaries are actually pretty cool....

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Anubis

Loki said:


> Hmm....nah....
> 
> 
> 
> You bloody mercenary
> 
> Hey, mercenaries are actually pretty cool....



Bro....we are passing judgement on Blasphemy when both our names are blasphemous!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Zabaniyah

Dillinger said:


> Bhaier jone ektuo prem nei? Amra to tomake bhishon bhalo bashi- as LONG as you stay on your side that is.  The same way we have a deep and abiding love for our Pakistani brothers- the very reason that me and Buttsy get along so well.



Who's Buttsy? 



Sukapha said:


> Kalu_Miah is a failed immigrant, whose life is a lie. He cannot go forward in the land of his choosing due to his intellectual incapacity and lack of any real talent, nor can he go back as a failure to the land he came from. Thus he is reduced to ranting in his pyjamas from his bedroom wishing for something he knows not what, while the land of his birth has moved forward. And then he is insecure, and wonders whether he made the right move by emigrating. Was it worth it, this life of hardship, when the wife does not listen, daughters have married outside the community and the only son a wastrel; when back home, he could have been a man of substance, dishing out tired slogans to the downtrodden citizenry. But wait, the citizenry are no longer downtrodden; they have their own mind, and they have their own destiny and they have charted a path without Kalu_Miah. What can Kalu_Miah do!!!! Fiction, recourse to fiction and get these scurfy unwashed yokels back on line to fulfill his own grandiose visions. What a loser....



Really? I find his theories boring. 

He's an US-educated professional though....

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Dillinger

Sukapha said:


> Kalu_Miah is a failed immigrant, whose life is a lie. He cannot go forward in the land of his choosing due to his intellectual incapacity and lack of any real talent, nor can he go back as a failure to the land he came from. Thus he is reduced to ranting in his pyjamas from his bedroom wishing for something he knows not what, while the land of his birth has moved forward. And then he is insecure, and wonders whether he made the right move by emigrating. Was it worth it, this life of hardship, when the wife does not listen, daughters have married outside the community and the only son a wastrel; when back home, he could have been a man of substance, dishing out tired slogans to the downtrodden citizenry. But wait, the citizenry are no longer downtrodden; they have their own mind, and they have their own destiny and they have charted a path without Kalu_Miah. What can Kalu_Miah do!!!! Fiction, recourse to fiction and get these scurfy unwashed yokels back on line to fulfill his own grandiose visions. What a loser....



Here is a thought, lets not get personal with the posters shall we. If we resort to ad hominem to discredit someone's POV, no matter how knackered said POV might appear to be, then it sort of becomes a two way street. 

Although, you deduced all that by his posts? @Loki give this guy a medal! 

So what have you deduced about me btw? 



Loki said:


> Who's Buttsy?
> 
> 
> 
> Really? I find his theories boring.
> 
> He's an US-educated professional though....



Buttsy is THE DISCO MAULVI!!

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## t_for_talli

So what if Agartala conspiracy theory is true
Whatever Mujhib did was good for his country

Pakistani donot criticize Jinnah going against decision of United India
We Indians donot criticize Bhagat Singh/Subash Chandra Bose conspiring against Britishers

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Zabaniyah

Anubis said:


> Bro....we are passing judgement on Blasphemy when both our names are blasphemous!



Our names? Okay, you named after some Egyptian deity, and me after a Nordic one

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## BanglaBhoot

Armstrong said:


> What decision did you want to be made in Bengal ? This ludicrous centricism of 'me....me....me' is what harmed the country in the first place !



Your previous comment shows that it was never me me me. The Bengali Muslims were never even recognized or at least some of the most important decisions and conferences would have been held in Bengal. How many times did Jinnah actually visit Bengal and East Pakistan before and after 1947? How many times did Bengal leaders travel to the West during the same period. What arrogance to treat the Bengal Muslims as subordinate when it as them that galvanized the move for Pakistan. 



Armstrong said:


> Real Grievances ? Real Grievances as in you hadn't any land & were discriminated against at ? What do you think happened in Sindh & in other Muslim Minority Provinces ? What do you think happened in the Punjab where most of the Intelligentsia & most certainly the Business Class wasn't from amongst us ! There is a historical context to the Bengal thing starting from the Partition & then the Reversal of Bengal's Partitioning in the early 1900s when real bona fide political awakening kicked in but to assert that somehow because the Bengalis were worse-off in their own land...the rest of us used to bathe in milk & honey every day & any demand from us was mere political opportunism is naivete at best or a toxic & most assuredly false vaingloriousness at the very worst !



That others parts were not as affected as Bengal is shown by the fact they required much more convincing to be part of Pakistan. It was because Bengal had the most discrimination and oppression that the demand for Pakistan arose but even your comments show that Bengal Muslims had no place in decision making and were thought of as subsidiary.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Tameem

Anubis said:


> What does Bengali Renaissance have anything to do with it??I can be proud of whatever the hell I want to.I am proud of my country and my culture.WE never made any mistake because ultimately we got what we wanted.We wanted a Muslim majority Bengali country...And that is what we have.



Wrong, You were undecided till the last moment, both in 47 and 71.



Anubis said:


> We had two options in 47 one was 'United Bengal' and the other was 'Pakistan'.Staying with India was not an option for us.As 'United Bengal' was not possible we opted for 'Pakistan'.



Ooh come on....You didn't opted, you have no other choice remains after failure of UB talks....your first choice.



Anubis said:


> in 71 we had two options stay with Pakistan or separate and make independent Bangladesh.



Wrong again, As per most Bengali posters Mujib didn't want independence....he only wants premiership, if not than Agartala conspiracy is indeed true and he actually a traitor to United Pakistan, both couldn't be correct simultaneously.



Anubis said:


> Now we have stable homogeneous country.We do not need to use military strength to hold it together.Because everyone here conforms to the same identity.Unlike both of our former brethren who need some degree of military brute force to keep their country together!



Aaaaah, That's why half of your population declares other half Indian or Pakistani Dallals at the same time......lol!



Anubis said:


> There is no absolute right or wrong in politics.There is only what you can do and what you cannot do.Pakistan was a right thing to do in the context of that time.200 years later it might not be true.



Here you are quite right, for most Bengali Muslims like you its only just politics to flip flop here and there as per the mode and atmosphere but for West Pakistani Muslims its the matter of life and death......Its the matter of Ideology!




Anubis said:


> If you blame Bengalis for having contradicting views you should look at the the history of Pakistan.During the 30s Jinnah and Iqbal also contradicted each other.Iqbal was opting for partition whereas Jinnah was trying to reach an agreement with Congress.Ideology has no place in politics.If Hindus and Muslims could stay peacefully together do you think Iqbal would wish for a separate state?Absolutely not.People's views are shaped by what happens around him not what he grows up with.Iqbal or Jinnah did not grow up with the idea of Pakistan.The conformed to it when they saw there was no other option.Because the same guy who wrote Sare Jahan se accha Hindustan hamara was also preaching to break up the same Hindustan.



Sane poeple always took their time to reach a concrete decision once but only fools flip flops in internity as per the situation....in plain Urdu/hindi its called......Thali kay Baingan....good for you.



Anubis said:


> We Bengalis are no different.Our political visions and wishes are a product of what we were going through!



Indeed you people never posses any sort of ideology completely......that's why no one i.e., Pakistani, Indian or even West Bengali accepts you as an ally ever......keep it up.....and keep blaming everyone else of where you are today at the moment.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Tameem

t_for_talli said:


> So what if Agartala conspiracy theory is true
> Whatever Mujhib did was good for his country
> 
> Pakistani donot criticize Jinnah going against decision of United India
> We Indians donot criticize Bhagat Singh/Subash Chandra Bose conspiring against Britishers



Bhagat Singh/Subhash Chandra Bose was a traitor to Britishers...Indian audiance=*Yes Absolutely*

Jinnah was a traitor to United India.........Pakistani Audiance=*Yes Absolutely*

Mujib was a traitor to United Pakistan...Bangladeshi Audiance=No..hamm yes..actually..he's not meant it....he thinks this....he thinks that

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Anubis

Tameem said:


> Wrong, You were undecided till the last moment, both in 47 and 71.
> 
> 
> 
> Ooh come on....You didn't opted, you have no other choice remains after failure of UB talks....your first choice.
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong again, As per most Bengali posters Mujib didn't want independence....he only wants premiership, if not than Agartala conspiracy is indeed true and he actually a traitor to United Pakistan, both couldn't be correct simultaneously.
> 
> 
> 
> Aaaaah, That's why half of your population declares other half Indian or Pakistani Dallals at the same time......lol!
> 
> 
> 
> Here you are quite right, for most Bengali Muslims like you its only just politics to flip flop here and there as per the mode and atmosphere but for West Pakistani Muslims its the matter of life and death......Its the matter of Ideology!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sane poeple always took their time to reach a concrete decision once but only fools flip flops in internity as per the situation....in plain Urdu/hindi its called......Thali kay Baingan....good for you.
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed you people never posses any sort of ideology completely......that's why no one i.e., Pakistani, Indian or even West Bengali accepts you as an ally ever......keep it up.....and keep blaming everyone else of where you are today at the moment.



Fine if you consider changing decision according to situation flip-flopping...Your founding fathers Iqbal and Jinnah are flip floppers just like me.My UB point is still valid...it was an option that did not work out....that's why we went for Pakistan.Agartala conspiracy did not happen in 71...it was in early 1968...it had nothing to do with Mujib's premiership(you just proved you do not have the knowledge of the subject of the thread)...Mujib was elected in 70!Yes half of our population follow one party and the other half follows another party....its called democracy(I do not expect you to understand)....Good we bengalis are non-ideological flip-floppers(who got what they wanted) and you the West Pakistani Muslims are the ideological Muslims who are carrying out the cosmic battle against the evil Qadiyanis!May you go to heaven...we will stay in our flood plain!We do not seek Pakistani,Indian or West Bengali alliance...specially how can we the ungrateful Bengalis who couldn't accept a genocide from the army of the great Islamic republic even dream about an alliance with the angelic ideological Muslims of Pakistan let alone all the Baniyas!

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Zabaniyah

Mujib probably had nothing to do with Agartala conspiracy in the first place  

It was a group of disgruntled officers like Col. Shawkat Ali who did it to seek help, support and coordination from RAW. That was the main point behind the Agartala matter. 

And maybe Mujib was falsely accused in the case. Otherwise, why would they let him go? Were Pakistanis dumb? Maybe seeing from the monk's tale in a bliss of sorrow. 

Awamis are promoting Mujib as such for their own reasons. I mean, why would they all of the sudden after all these years? What can the nation possibly gain at this time by saying such? 
In Conversation with Col (retd) Shawkat Ali « Dhaka Courier

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## asad71

Loki said:


> Simply put it, if there was no Pakistan, there would have been no Bangladesh. Talking about alternate realities is a complete waste of time.
> 
> There are various books that are part of secondary school curriculum in Bangladesh. Of-course, they were approved by the ruling BAL. They do mention and support the two-nation theory by stating details of how Muslim-Bengalis wanted a Pakistan to avoid "Hindu-domination". Suffice it to say, Mujib did support the two-nation theory.
> 
> The West Pakistani leadership did not accurately acknowledge the security matters in East Pakistan. Especially after instigating an insurgency in north east India during the 60's. East Pakistanis alternatively thought that a new nation "Bangladesh" can manage its own security. Part of why they wanted to break away.
> 
> Now as far as these present "Bengali-nationalists" go, yeah they are a bit of a mental case. As stated here by an AL supporter:
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/members-club/282704-bible-scholar-makes-explosive-allegation-about-jesus-9.html#post4869156
> 
> It appears that these conspiracy theories about AL loyalists being anti-Muslim may indeed be true. How it is so remains to be seen. Seeing how Bangladeshis generals can get slaughtered by their own soldiers, and this^, security is still a far away dream.



1.If there was no pioneering movement from the Bengalee Muslims, there would be no Pakistan. Even the last minute shift in NWFP had a Bengalee input. The Political Agent Iskandar Mirza played a crucial role in motivating the tribal Maliks to support Pakistan. In this Mirza was working on a direct instruction from Jinnah. Mirza was not a Bengalee but was counted as an E Pakistani. His mother tongue was Persian which was spoken at his home.He had also mastered Pashtu.

2. Pakistan, BD and the Muslims remaining in India face a common foe - the rising Hindu extremism which seeks to eliminate all Muslims from SA. Therefore, SA Muslims must re-examine the famous Lahore Resolution, 1940 moved by the Shere Banlgla.Perhaps a salvation can be found there.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Armstrong

MBI Munshi said:


> Your previous comment shows that it was never me me me. The Bengali Muslims were never even recognized or at least some of the most important decisions and conferences would have been held in Bengal. How many times did Jinnah actually visit Bengal and East Pakistan before and after 1947? How many times did Bengal leaders travel to the West during the same period. What arrogance to treat the Bengal Muslims as subordinate when it as them that galvanized the move for Pakistan.


 
Galvanized the move for Pakistan ? Who are we kidding here with this self-righteous narrative ? Just because the Muslims of Bengal along with other Muslims from the rest of British India, gave birth to the Muslim League in Dhaka at the backdrop of the Reversal of the Partitioning of Bengal, does not automatically place Bengali Muslims & Bengal on a higher pedestal than the rest of us ! 

In fact it would be just as absurd as saying that because Allama Iqbal was a Punjabi of Kashmiri Ethnicity (like myself), somehow I or the people of Punjab or those of Kashmir have bragging rights over the Pakistan Movement seeing that it was he & he alone who gave any real shape to the Pakistan Movement through his Allahabad Address of 1930. 

At any rate the presence or absence of any event of note in Bengal is as ludicrous as a Sindhi, a Pashtun, a Hyderabadi or a Kashmiri Muslim saying because most of the events were happening either in Delhi, Lucknow, Lahore, Dhaka or others - We were the neglected ones ! 

And besides if there was any perceived neglect or toning-down on the contributions of Bengal in all of this the Bengali Muslim Stalwarts of note would've said something at time so surely a quote or two from them whereby they were being subordinated by the rest of us would be something I look forward to from you. 



MBI Munshi said:


> That others parts were not as affected as Bengal is shown by the fact they required much more convincing to be part of Pakistan. It was because Bengal had the most discrimination and oppression that the demand for Pakistan arose *but even your comments show that Bengal Muslims had no place in decision making and were thought of as subsidiary*.



What kind of a ludicrous aspersion is that ? 

If we never cared about Bengali Muslims or didn't recognize the part they played in the Pakistan Movement our Pakistan Studies Books wouldn't explicitly mention Bengal of the Mughal Era & before, the Partitioning of Bengal, the Reversal of that Partitioning, the birth of the Muslim League at Dhaka & the exceptional contributions of Bengali Muslims like Suhrawardy, Fazlul-Haq, Nazimuddin amongst others. 

Yes the Pakistan Studies Books have a habit of white-washing the whole '71 thing in a single paragraph without any blame being apportioned to us or to even Bengalis for that matter but they sure as hell haven't censored out Bengali Muslims who built the country up ! 

Every kid whose every gone through the system knows about Suhrawardy, about Fazlul-Haq, about Nazimuddin & others but I'd be mighty surprised if the average Bangladeshi knows about some of our Leaders or even knows about Quaid-e-Azam in a positive light - Theres just no comparison over here ! 

So many places all over Pakistan are named after those Bengali Stalwarts but is their even a tight street named in Bangladesh after any of Our Leaders ? So please spare me the comparison when there is none ! 

Besides even at the backdrop of '71 we didn't butcher a single Bengali here & even the guy tasked with investigating what the hell happened in '71 that caused the country to rip asunder was a Bengali - Justice Humoodor Rehman ! Whose son today is the Chief Justice of the Islamabad High Court & is widely respected in the Legal & Journalistic Circles as one of those honorable Judges who refused to take oath under Musharraf's Provisional Constitutional Order ! 

Even Suhrawardy Sahib's granddaughter Shahida Jamil who became Pakistan's First Women Law Minister is widely respected in Pakistan ! 

Heck where more than 2 million Illegal Bangladeshi reside in Pakistan without anyone asking them to go back to Bangladesh & a few million more Pakistani Bengalis who are extremely well-integrated in the society ! Even I, despite what I say in my bouts of anger, don't want the Bengalis to leave - They are Our People....our brothers & sisters, our sons & our daughters & they are living in their Motherland ! I mean that even about the 2 million Illegal Bangladeshis ! I want the Biharis that my Government threw in '71 back & I'd want the 2 million Illegal Bangladeshis to stay as well ! 

So honestly, who are you kidding ? There is no comparison here & there is no belittling Bengalis by us !

Heck my own paternal uncle was born in Dhaka !  

' @Secur - Your input is required !

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## asad71

Loki said:


> Simply put it, if there was no Pakistan, there would have been no Bangladesh. Talking about alternate realities is a complete waste of time.
> 
> There are various books that are part of secondary school curriculum in Bangladesh. Of-course, they were approved by the ruling BAL. They do mention and support the two-nation theory by stating details of how Muslim-Bengalis wanted a Pakistan to avoid "Hindu-domination". Suffice it to say, Mujib did support the two-nation theory.
> 
> The West Pakistani leadership did not accurately acknowledge the security matters in East Pakistan. Especially after instigating an insurgency in north east India during the 60's. East Pakistanis alternatively thought that a new nation "Bangladesh" can manage its own security. Part of why they wanted to break away.
> 
> Now as far as these present "Bengali-nationalists" go, yeah they are a bit of a mental case. As stated here by an AL supporter:
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/members-club/282704-bible-scholar-makes-explosive-allegation-about-jesus-9.html#post4869156
> 
> It appears that these conspiracy theories about AL loyalists being anti-Muslim may indeed be true. How it is so remains to be seen. Seeing how Bangladeshis generals can get slaughtered by their own soldiers, and this^, security is still a far away dream.



1.If there was no pioneering movement from the Bengalee Muslims, there would be no Pakistan. Even the last minute shift in NWFP had a Bengalee input. The Political Agent Iskandar Mirza played a crucial role in motivating the tribal Maliks to support Pakistan. In this Mirza was working on a direct instruction from Jinnah. Mirza was not a Bengalee but was counted as an E Pakistani. His mother tongue was Persian which was spoken at his home.He had also mastered Pashtu.

2. Pakistan, BD and the Muslims remaining in India face a common foe - the rising Hindu extremism which seeks to eliminate all Muslims from SA. Therefore, SA Muslims must re-examine the famous Lahore Resolution, 1940 moved by the Shere Banlgla.Perhaps a salvation can be found there.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Tameem

Anubis said:


> Fine if you consider changing decision according to situation flip-flopping...Your founding fathers Iqbal and Jinnah are flip floppers just like me.



Don't hide behind Quaid and Iqbal repeatedly....they took their time and stick with their final decision for rest of their life unlike you.



Anubis said:


> My UB point is still valid...it was an option that did not work out....that's why we went for Pakistan.



Why you people always have multiple options under your sleeves? don't you tired of yourself!



Anubis said:


> Agartala conspiracy did not happen in 71...it was in early 1968...it had nothing to do with Mujib's premiership(you just proved you do not have the knowledge of the subject of the thread)...Mujib was elected in 70!



Don't circle around....Mujib was a traitor to United Pakistan just say=Yes or No



Anubis said:


> Yes half of our population follow one party and the other half follows another party....its called democracy(I do not expect you to understand)....



In democracy all are statesmans no one is Gaddar's to the very least....and here half of your population is gaddar to other half.



Anubis said:


> Good we bengalis are non-ideological flip-floppers(who got what they wanted) and you the West Pakistani Muslims are the ideological Muslims who are carrying out the cosmic battle against the evil Qadiyanis!May you go to heaven...we will stay in our flood plain!We do not seek Pakistani,Indian or West Bengali alliance...specially how can we the ungrateful Bengalis who couldn't accept a genocide from the army of the great Islamic republic even dream about an alliance with the angelic ideological Muslims of Pakistan let alone all the Baniyas!



On Idealogy....you poeple should be pissed off like that....even banyas are better what you stated above on this subject.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Anubis

asad71 said:


> 1.If there was no pioneering movement from the Bengalee Muslims, there would be no Pakistan. Even the last minute shift in NWFP had a Bengalee input. The Political Agent Iskandar Mirza played a crucial role in motivating the tribal Maliks to support Pakistan. In this Mirza was working on a direct instruction from Jinnah. Mirza was not a Bengalee but was counted as an E Pakistani. His mother tongue was Persian which was spoken at his home.He had also mastered Pashtu.
> 
> 2. Pakistan, BD and the Muslims remaining in India face a common foe - the rising Hindu extremism which seeks to eliminate all Muslims from SA. Therefore, SA Muslims must re-examine the famous Lahore Resolution, 1940 moved by the Shere Banlgla.Perhaps a salvation can be found there.



Point 3 of Lahore resolution says 'independent states in which the constituent units shall be autonomous and soverign'
3. The adjacent territorial units should be demarcated into regions that may involve some territorial adjustments in a manner that the areas in which the Muslims are numerically in a majority as in north-western and eastern zones of India become independent states in which the constituent units shall be autonomous and sovereign.

An interpretation of the Lahore Resolution - DAWN.COM

What happened to the 'states' and how did it become 'a state'??

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## extra terrestrial

Loki said:


> Mujib probably had nothing to do with Agartala conspiracy in the first place
> 
> It was a group of disgruntled officers like Col. Shawkat Ali who did it to seek help, support and coordination from RAW. That was the main point behind the Agartala matter.
> 
> And maybe Mujib was falsely accused in the case. Otherwise, why would they let him go? *Were Pakistanis dumb?* Maybe seeing from the monk's tale in a bliss of sorrow.
> 
> Awamis are promoting Mujib as such for their own reasons. I mean, why would they all of the sudden after all these years? What can the nation possibly gain at this time by saying such?
> In Conversation with Col (retd) Shawkat Ali « Dhaka Courier



I read in a Daily Star article written by a Pakistani author that ISI predicted that Awami League simply had no popularity in East Pakistan which motivated Yahya Khan to hold the 1970 general elections, how could someone predict such thing? that too the highest intelligence agency of the country!


----------



## Anubis

Tameem said:


> Don't hide behind Quaid and Iqbal repeatedly....they took their time and stick with their final decision for rest of their life unlike you.
> 
> 
> 
> Why you people always have multiple options under your sleeves? don't you tired of yourself!
> 
> 
> 
> Don't circle around....Mujib was a traitor to United Pakistan just say=Yes or No
> 
> 
> 
> In democracy all are statesmans no one is Gaddar's to the very least....and here half of your population is gaddar to other half.
> 
> 
> 
> On Idealogy....you poeple should be pissed off like that....even banyas are better what you stated above on this subject.



1.I don't hide behind anyone.52 years Iqbal remains loyal Hindustan(while we already faced discrimination and partioned bengal in 1905)...then in 1930,8 years before he died he changes his mind(flip flopping Bengalee).....Jinnah a strong believer of Two-Nation theory(theorized during Aligarh Movement of 1906) still negotiated with Gandhi and Nehru till the last moment(couldn't make up his mind??)....Both of them changed their minds when the situation demanded...Just like we did!

2.Because we are smart!

3.Absolutely NOT!

4.Even in the best examples of democracies one party always claims the other party is a sellout to a specific interest.

5.Absolutely happy not to conform to fragile ideologies that cannot be upheld with the course of time.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Armstrong

@genmirajborgza786 - So how do your efforts towards bridging the gaps between Pakistan & Bangladesh fair ?


----------



## genmirajborgza786

Armstrong said:


> @genmirajborgza786
> 
> So how do your efforts towards bridging the gaps between Pakistan & Bangladesh fair ?



both Pakistan & Bangladesh must respect each others independence & strengthen their relations ,agreed both Pakistan & Bangladesh have their differences, while one admires Quaid e Azam ,the other admires Mujib/Zia, & all of these gentlemen supported separations from India in 47 , one will not find any Maula Abul kalam Azad amongst us , because we both rejected his ideals , *we are Pakistanis & Bangladeshis * here & are *proud of it*, our separate identities from India is what sets us apart, & we complement each others independence with both our countries desire to live as free separate & sovereign nations

let not the burden of 1971 overshadow this beautiful aspect, with all our differences & bickering's , we both are justifications for each others existence & we share & compliment each others independent Pakistan & independent Bangladesh

lets strive hard to make Pakistan, a power house like turkey & lets strive hard to make Bangladesh a power house like South Korea 

looking @ their industrial & military power, give Turkey & South Korea nukes, & they will give India & China a run for their money !
& Pakistan is 93,000 sq km larger then Turkey ! while Bangladesh is 45,000 sq km larger then South Korea ! 

we both have everything, what else can we want, all we both need is leadership & respect each others independence & sovereignty & work hard to improve our ties & trust me the sky is the limit

_Pakistan zindabad !_

_Bangladesh zindabad !_ 







what we both have is precious, lest we forget

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## Armstrong

@genmirajborgza786 - Oh bhai Kashmir ko map mein khaaa gaiii ?  

Mein (eik Kashmiri) itnaaa buraa lagtaa huuun tou maaar kiyun nahin deiteiii eik dufaaa...dil kiyun baaar baaar toorteiii hoooo isss tarhaaan ?

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## genmirajborgza786

Armstrong said:


> @genmirajborgza786 - Oh bhai Kashmir ko map mein khaaa gaiii ?
> 
> Mein (eik Kashmiri) itnaaa buraa lagtaa huuun tou maaar kiyun nahin deiteiii eik dufaaa...dil kiyun baaar baaar toorteiii hoooo isss tarhaaan ?



_yeh lo_

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## BanglaBhoot

Armstrong said:


> Galvanized the move for Pakistan ? Who are we kidding here with this self-righteous narrative ? Just because the Muslims of Bengal along with other Muslims from the rest of British India, gave birth to the Muslim League in Dhaka at the backdrop of the Reversal of the Partitioning of Bengal, does not automatically place Bengali Muslims & Bengal on a higher pedestal than the rest of us !
> 
> In fact it would be just as absurd as saying that because Allama Iqbal was a Punjabi of Kashmiri Ethnicity (like myself), somehow I or the people of Punjab or those of Kashmir have bragging rights over the Pakistan Movement seeing that it was he & he alone who gave any real shape to the Pakistan Movement through his Allahabad Address of 1930.
> 
> At any rate the presence or absence of any event of note in Bengal is as ludicrous as a Sindhi, a Pashtun, a Hyderabadi or a Kashmiri Muslim saying because most of the events were happening either in Delhi, Lucknow, Lahore, Dhaka or others - We were the neglected ones !
> 
> And besides if there was any perceived neglect or toning-down on the contributions of Bengal in all of this the Bengali Muslim Stalwarts of note would've said something at time so surely a quote or two from them whereby they were being subordinated by the rest of us would be something I look forward to from you.



Yes blah blah blah but where would have been Pakistan without the Bengal Muslims. Still in the dreams of Choudry Rahmat Ali and you would not have even got a moth eaten Pakistan. 





Armstrong said:


> What kind of a ludicrous aspersion is that ?
> 
> If we never cared about Bengali Muslims or didn't recognize the part they played in the Pakistan Movement our Pakistan Studies Books wouldn't explicitly mention Bengal of the Mughal Era & before, the Partitioning of Bengal, the Reversal of that Partitioning, the birth of the Muslim League at Dhaka & the exceptional contributions of Bengali Muslims like Suhrawardy, Fazlul-Haq, Nazimuddin amongst others.
> 
> Yes the Pakistan Studies Books have a habit of white-washing the whole '71 thing in a single paragraph without any blame being apportioned to us or to even Bengalis for that matter but they sure as hell haven't censored out Bengali Muslims who built the country up !
> 
> Every kid whose every gone through the system knows about Suhrawardy, about Fazlul-Haq, about Nazimuddin & others but I'd be mighty surprised if the average Bangladeshi knows about some of our Leaders or even knows about Quaid-e-Azam in a positive light - Theres just no comparison over here !
> 
> So many places all over Pakistan are named after those Bengali Stalwarts but is their even a tight street named in Bangladesh after any of Our Leaders ? So please spare me the comparison when there is none !
> 
> Besides even at the backdrop of '71 we didn't butcher a single Bengali here & even the guy tasked with investigating what the hell happened in '71 that caused the country to rip asunder was a Bengali - Justice Humoodor Rehman ! Whose son today is the Chief Justice of the Islamabad High Court & is widely respected in the Legal & Journalistic Circles as one of those honorable Judges who refused to take oath under Musharraf's Provisional Constitutional Order !
> 
> Even Suhrawardy Sahib's granddaughter Shahida Jamil who became Pakistan's First Women Law Minister is widely respected in Pakistan !
> 
> Heck where more than 2 million Illegal Bangladeshi reside in Pakistan without anyone asking them to go back to Bangladesh & a few million more Pakistani Bengalis who are extremely well-integrated in the society ! Even I, despite what I say in my bouts of anger, don't want the Bengalis to leave - They are Our People....our brothers & sisters, our sons & our daughters & they are living in their Motherland ! I mean that even about the 2 million Illegal Bangladeshis ! I want the Biharis that my Government threw in '71 back & I'd want the 2 million Illegal Bangladeshis to stay as well !
> 
> So honestly, who are you kidding ? There is no comparison here & there is no belittling Bengalis by us !
> 
> Heck my own paternal uncle was born in Dhaka !
> 
> ' @Secur - Your input is required !



Why are you writing a whole lot of stuff about ideas that I do not share with the present government or their politics? I have already said that many Bangladeshis have a wrong understanding about 1971 and have omitted large chunks of history but we eventually go back to the original idea usually through violence and bloodshed and then return to normality.


----------



## kalu_miah

genmirajborgza786 said:


> both Pakistan & Bangladesh much respect each others independence & strengthen their relations ,agreed both Pakistan & Bangladesh have their differences, while one admires Quaid e Azam ,the other admires Mujib/Zia, & all of these gentlemen supported separations from India in 47 , one will not find any Maula Abul kalam Azad amongst us , because we both rejected his ideals , *we are Pakistanis & Bangladeshis * here & are *proud of it*, our separate identities from India is what sets us apart, & we complement each others independence with both our countries desire to live as free separate & sovereign nations
> 
> let not the burden of 1971 overshadow this beautiful aspect, with all our differences & bickering's , we both are justifications for each others existence & we share & compliment each others independent Pakistan & independent Bangladesh
> 
> lets strive hard to make Pakistan, a power house like turkey & lets strive hard to make Bangladesh a power house like South Korea
> 
> looking @ their industrial & military power, give Turkey & South Korea nukes, & they will give India & China a run for their money !
> & Pakistan is 93,000 sq km larger then Turkey ! while Bangladesh is 45,000 sq km larger then South Korea !
> 
> we both have everything, what else can we want, all we both need is leadership & respect each others independence & sovereignty & work hard to improve our ties & trust me the sky is the limit
> 
> _Pakistan zindabad !_
> 
> _Bangladesh zindabad !_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> what we both have is precious, lest we forget



Well said bro. We should take care not to bad mouth each other and hurt each others feelings or interest, but we can agree to disagree on the past giving due respect to the victims from both sides. And future is always more important than the past. Sky is the limit for each nation state if they can set their mind to it:

The Secrets of Intangible Wealth - WSJ.com
The Secrets of Intangible Wealth
By RONALD BAILEY 

A Mexican migrant to the U.S. is five times more productive than one who stays home. Why is that? The answer is not the obvious one: This country has more machinery or tools or natural resources. Instead, according to some remarkable but largely ignored research -- by the World Bank, of all places -- it is because the average American has access to over $418,000 in intangible wealth, while the stay-at-home Mexican's intangible wealth is just $34,000.

But what is intangible wealth, and how on earth is it measured? And what does it mean for the world's people -- poor and rich? That's where the story gets even more interesting.

Two years ago the World Bank's environmental economics department set out to assess the relative contributions of various kinds of capital to economic development. Its study, "Where is the Wealth of Nations?: Measuring Capital for the 21st Century," began by defining natural capital as the sum of nonrenewable resources (including oil, natural gas, coal and mineral resources), cropland, pasture land, forested areas and protected areas. Produced, or built, capital is what many of us think of when we think of capital: the sum of machinery, equipment, and structures (including infrastructure) and urban land.

But once the value of all these are added up, the economists found something big was still missing: the vast majority of world's wealth! If one simply adds up the current value of a country's natural resources and produced, or built, capital, there's no way that can account for that country's level of income.

The rest is the result of "intangible" factors -- such as the trust among people in a society, an efficient judicial system, clear property rights and effective government. All this intangible capital also boosts the productivity of labor and results in higher total wealth. In fact, the World Bank finds, "Human capital and the value of institutions (as measured by rule of law) constitute the largest share of wealth in virtually all countries."

Once one takes into account all of the world's natural resources and produced capital, 80% of the wealth of rich countries and 60% of the wealth of poor countries is of this intangible type. The bottom line: "Rich countries are largely rich because of the skills of their populations and the quality of the institutions supporting economic activity."

What the World Bank economists have brilliantly done is quantify the intangible value of education and social institutions. According to their regression analyses, for example, the rule of law explains 57% of countries' intangible capital. Education accounts for 36%.

The rule-of-law index was devised using several hundred individual variables measuring perceptions of governance, drawn from 25 separate data sources constructed by 18 different organizations. The latter include civil society groups (Freedom House), political and business risk-rating agencies (Economist Intelligence Unit) and think tanks (International Budget Project Open Budget Index).

Switzerland scores 99.5 out of 100 on the rule-of-law index and the U.S. hits 91.8. By contrast, Nigeria's score is a pitiful 5.8; Burundi's 4.3; and Ethiopia's 16.4. The members of the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development -- 30 wealthy developed countries -- have an average score of 90, while sub-Saharan Africa's is a dismal 28.

The natural wealth in rich countries like the U.S. is a tiny proportion of their overall wealth -- typically 1% to 3% -- yet they derive more value from what they have. Cropland, pastures and forests are more valuable in rich countries because they can be combined with other capital like machinery and strong property rights to produce more value. Machinery, buildings, roads and so forth account for 17% of the rich countries' total wealth.

Overall, the average per capita wealth in the rich Organization for Economic Cooperation Development (OECD) countries is $440,000, consisting of $10,000 in natural capital, $76,000 in produced capital, and a whopping $354,000 in intangible capital. (Switzerland has the highest per capita wealth, at $648,000. The U.S. is fourth at $513,000.)

By comparison, the World Bank study finds that total wealth for the low income countries averages $7,216 per person. That consists of $2,075 in natural capital, $1,150 in produced capital and $3,991 in intangible capital. The countries with the lowest per capita wealth are Ethiopia ($1,965), Nigeria ($2,748), and Burundi ($2,859).

In fact, some countries are so badly run, that they actually have negative intangible capital. Through rampant corruption and failing school systems, Nigeria and the Democratic Republic of the Congo are destroying their intangible capital and ensuring that their people will be poorer in the future.

In the U.S., according to the World Bank study, natural capital is $15,000 per person, produced capital is $80,000 and intangible capital is $418,000. And thus, considering common measure used to compare countries, its annual purchasing power parity GDP per capita is $43,800. By contrast, oil-rich Mexico's total natural capital per person is $8,500 ($6,000 due to oil), produced capital is $19,000 and intangible capita is $34,500 -- a total of $62,000 per person. Yet its GDP per capita is $10,700. When a Mexican, or for that matter, a South Asian or African, walks across our border, they gain immediate access to intangible capital worth $418,000 per person. Who wouldn't walk across the border in such circumstances?

The World Bank study bolsters the deep insights of the late development economist Peter Bauer. In his brilliant 1972 book "Dissent on Development," Bauer wrote: "If all conditions for development other than capital are present, capital will soon be generated locally or will be available . . . from abroad. . . . If, however, the conditions for development are not present, then aid . . . will be necessarily unproductive and therefore ineffective. Thus, if the mainsprings of development are present, material progress will occur even without foreign aid. If they are absent, it will not occur even with aid."

The World Bank's path breaking "Where is the Wealth of Nations?" convincingly demonstrates that *the "mainsprings of development" are the rule of law and a good school system. The big question that its researchers don't answer is: How can the people of the developing world rid themselves of the kleptocrats who loot their countries and keep them poor?*
Mr. Bailey is Reason magazine's science correspondent.

Reference:
http://siteresources.worldbank.org/INTEEI/214578-1110886258964/20748034/All.pdf
http://s3.amazonaws.com/caa-production/attachments/119/C_Page30to33_Cobb.pdf?1366918944
http://www-wds.worldbank.org/extern...58349_20130326131617/Rendered/PDF/wps6391.pdf
http://www.princeton.edu/~reinhard/pdfs/WEALTH-ECON-100-2002May-15-2010.pdf

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## kalu_miah

self delete


----------



## Ayush

Armstrong said:


> @genmirajborgza786 - Oh bhai Kashmir ko map mein khaaa gaiii ?
> 
> Mein (eik Kashmiri) itnaaa buraa lagtaa huuun tou maaar kiyun nahin deiteiii eik dufaaa...dil kiyun baaar baaar toorteiii hoooo isss tarhaaan ?



kyunki kashmir hamara hai

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## khair_ctg

Loki said:


> Simply put it, if there was no Pakistan, there would have been no Bangladesh. Talking about alternate realities is a complete waste of time.
> 
> There are various books that are part of secondary school curriculum in Bangladesh. Of-course, they were approved by the ruling BAL. They do mention and support the two-nation theory by stating details of how Muslim-Bengalis wanted a Pakistan to avoid "Hindu-domination". Suffice it to say, Mujib did support the two-nation theory.
> 
> The West Pakistani leadership did not accurately acknowledge the security matters in East Pakistan. Especially after instigating an insurgency in north east India during the 60's. East Pakistanis alternatively thought that a new nation "Bangladesh" can manage its own security. Part of why they wanted to break away.
> 
> Now as far as these present "Bengali-nationalists" go, yeah they are a bit of a mental case. As stated here by an AL supporter:
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/members-club/282704-bible-scholar-makes-explosive-allegation-about-jesus-9.html#post4869156
> 
> It appears that these conspiracy theories about AL loyalists being anti-Muslim may indeed be true. How it is so remains to be seen. Seeing how Bangladeshis generals can get slaughtered by their own soldiers, and this^, security is still a far away dream.



is he for real?? amare mairala


----------



## khair_ctg

Anubis said:


> Point 3 of Lahore resolution says 'independent states in which the constituent units shall be autonomous and soverign'
> 3. The adjacent territorial units should be demarcated into regions that may involve some territorial adjustments in a manner &#8220;that the areas in which the Muslims are numerically in a majority as in north-western and eastern zones of India &#8220;become &#8220;independent states in which the constituent units shall be autonomous and sovereign.&#8221;
> 
> An interpretation of the Lahore Resolution - DAWN.COM
> 
> What happened to the 'states' and how did it become 'a state'??



How did 'states' become 'state'? that should be a question for ourselves, the former Eastern Bengalis ONLY. this has been talked about multiple times in this forum. not that there was just no major opposition, Bengalis wholeheartedly supported union with the Punjabis, Sindhis, Hindustanis etc. at least think about in the right context - when a certain (minority) community lives in the same country for time immemorial, struggles around a similar cause, lives with the nostalgia of a glorious past borne out of the same empires their forefathers built together, at least emotion does not let them fragment themselves off into small enclaves (comes the "moth-eaten" and "truncated"). besides emotion, there were a hundred other reasons. just one is looking at the fate of Hyderabadi Musalmans. (now you almost sound like you deem (West) Pakistanis were 'bad' because they cold-heartedly sneakily changed the spelling of states due to some cruel intentions)

yes our perfect hindsight says two separate confederations would have a better outcome in the future and it's a sorry excuse for a bunch of lowlifes that are called Bangladeshis and Pakistanis today. we should just admit we (or our forefathers) simply screwed up, and we both screwed up. i don't think this nagging of "why you treated us badly" "why you did not do this, that for us" from people like you is helping us or anyone

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## khair_ctg

Loki said:


> Simply put it, if there was no Pakistan, there would have been no Bangladesh. Talking about alternate realities is a complete waste of time.
> 
> There are various books that are part of secondary school curriculum in Bangladesh. Of-course, they were approved by the ruling BAL. They do mention and support the two-nation theory by stating details of how Muslim-Bengalis wanted a Pakistan to avoid "Hindu-domination". Suffice it to say, Mujib did support the two-nation theory.
> 
> The West Pakistani leadership did not accurately acknowledge the security matters in East Pakistan. Especially after instigating an insurgency in north east India during the 60's. East Pakistanis alternatively thought that a new nation "Bangladesh" can manage its own security. Part of why they wanted to break away.
> 
> Now as far as these present "Bengali-nationalists" go, yeah they are a bit of a mental case. As stated here by an AL supporter:
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/members-club/282704-bible-scholar-makes-explosive-allegation-about-jesus-9.html#post4869156
> 
> It appears that these conspiracy theories about AL loyalists being anti-Muslim may indeed be true. How it is so remains to be seen. Seeing how Bangladeshis generals can get slaughtered by their own soldiers, and this^, security is still a far away dream.



and what you said about govt-issue history books in secondary schools is not at all the case in english medium


----------



## Anubis

khair_ctg said:


> How did 'states' become 'state'? that should be a question for ourselves, the former Eastern Bengalis ONLY. this has been talked about multiple times in this forum. not that there was just no major opposition, Bengalis wholeheartedly supported union with the Punjabis, Sindhis, Hindustanis etc. at least think about in the right context - when a certain (minority) community lives in the same country for time immemorial, struggles around a similar cause, lives with the nostalgia of a glorious past borne out of the same empires their forefathers built together, at least emotion does not let them fragment themselves off into small enclaves (comes the "moth-eaten" and "truncated"). besides emotion, there were a hundred other reasons. just one is looking at the fate of Hyderabadi Musalmans. *(now you almost sound like you deem (West) Pakistanis were 'bad' because they cold-heartedly sneakily changed the spelling of states due to some cruel intentions*)
> 
> yes our perfect hindsight says two separate confederations would have a better outcome in the future and it's a sorry excuse for a bunch of lowlifes that are called Bangladeshis and Pakistanis today. we should just admit we (or our forefathers) simply screwed up, and we both screwed up. i don't think this nagging of "why you treated us badly" "why you did not do this, that for us" from people like you is helping us or anyone



And looks like I have enough reason to think that might just be true:

On April 7 1946, at Delhi&#8217;s Muslim convention &#8220;General Secretary Nawabzada Liaquat Ali Khan, at Jinnah&#8217;s instance, corrected the word *&#8216;states&#8217;* for *&#8216;state&#8217;* in the Lahore Resolution as a *typographical error*, ignoring loud protestations from Bengali councillors, the most vocal of whom were Maulana Abdul Hamid Khan Bhashani, and Abul Hashim, General Secretary of the Bengal Provincial Muslim League&#8221; 

Suhrawardy and Jinnah &#8211; The Express Tribune

When Abul Hashim made his complaint, Jinnah, the lawyer, could see the problem clearly enough but his first attempt to get around it was feeble in extreme. He suggested that the letter &#8216;s&#8217; after the word &#8216;State&#8217; in the Lahore Resolution was a typographical error. When Liaquat Ali Khan produced the original minutes of the meeting Jinnah had to concede that he was wrong and word &#8216;States&#8217; was indeed in the original text. He then fobbed off Abul Hashim&#8217;s objection by assuring the convention that the Lahore Resolution had not been amended. The resolution, he said, would be the document laid before the future Pakistani Constituent Assembly that, as a sovereign body would take all final decisions.

Book-Pakistan: Eye of the Storm
http://books.google.com/books?id=t8iYEgPYG_EC&pg=PA151&lpg=PA151&dq=lahore+resolution+typographical+error&source=bl&ots=0yufWRTRZ8&sig=OMv2o0hbTyUxsvz-1_sJvfX0fEg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=evlgUsfDJIr29gSe7YGIBw&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=lahore%20resolution%20typographical%20error&f=false

http://www.worldsindhi.org/publishedreports/5July05.html

...Someone pointed out that the word 'State' would be inconsistent with the Lahore Resolution of 1940 which clearly mentioned the word 'States'.The Qaid-E-Azam said the word states was a mistake and had cropped up probably as a result of a typographical error.It was then stated that even the Published records of the Central Office of All-India Muslim League carried the word in plural.The Qiad-E-Azam replied what really mattered was the intention and not the the word.
-MAH Ispahai.

Book-Moulana Bhashani
http://books.google.com/books?id=jR5QAAAAQBAJ&pg=PT170&lpg=PT170&dq=lahore+resolution+typographical+error&source=bl&ots=CVmdvy3k8T&sig=70_TbSecjg54Sr79gJX8eMt8C9I&hl=en&sa=X&ei=kPxgUtGEIIf-9QTqxoHwAg&ved=0CF4Q6AEwBjgK#v=onepage&q=lahore%20resolution%20typographical%20error&f=false

Same typographical error mentioned in this book too:

Book-Origins of Muslim Consciousness in India: A World-system Perspective
http://books.google.com/books?id=wzm36rEol3sC&pg=PA255&lpg=PA255&dq=lahore+resolution+typographical+error&source=bl&ots=EYpcC-NBXj&sig=gHlkEbyH_5Xvie9offYqKSGFDN0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=kPxgUtGEIIf-9QTqxoHwAg&ved=0CGcQ6AEwCDgK#v=onepage&q=lahore%20resolution%20typographical%20error&f=false

*Sorry I do not have any sugar-coated version of history that blames both sides equally to create a false sense of balance.And I certainly do not have any version that agrees with your sentiment that this is a question for East Bengalis only and Bengalis whole heartedly supported a union with Punjabis and others.It is clear that our leaders(Bhashani and others) did voice their opposition but denied the right of a sovereign and autonomous state simply because as you stated it they changed the spelling later on.*

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Zabaniyah

extra terrestrial said:


> I read in a Daily Star article written by a Pakistani author that ISI predicted that Awami League simply had no popularity in East Pakistan which motivated Yahya Khan to hold the 1970 general elections, how could someone predict such thing? that too the highest intelligence agency of the country!



Some unknown Pakistani guy writing on Daily Star knowing about information provided by ISI? Cool story by them as always 



khair_ctg said:


> and what you said about govt-issue history books in secondary schools is not at all the case in english medium



Yeah, I was talking about English medium. Particularly those examinations held under Cambridge University at British Council. They do have Bangladesh Studies as a course. 
http://bangladesh.exams.britishcouncil.org/repo_content.php?category_id=116

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Xestan

Hyperion said:


> You made sense all the way, and then you HAD to go on and say "but every Muslim country in this world"!



Strength lies in unity. EU is a very good example of that.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## extra terrestrial

Loki said:


> Some unknown Pakistani guy writing on Daily Star knowing about information provided by ISI? Cool story by them as always



He was probably a retired army officer or a defense analyst, can't remember exactly. Couldn't find the Daily Star article but there is something similar written in this Dawn article:



> The result was more disquieting for Yahya Khan who had in a pre-poll assessment been told that no party could take a clear lead and there would be a coalition government which could be easily handled by Yahya from the top.
> 
> 1970 polls: When election results created a storm - DAWN.COM



Don't know on what basis was the pre-poll assessment made!


----------



## Zabaniyah

extra terrestrial said:


> He was probably a retired army officer or a defense analyst, can't remember exactly. Couldn't find the Daily Star article but there is something similar written in this Dawn article:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't know on what basis was the pre-poll assessment made!



Well, it doesn't say anything about the ISI now does it? 

Even then, no intelligence agency in the world would share information with the media, or anywhere in public. Period. 

Though, the contents of article you referred to are credible.


----------



## extra terrestrial

Loki said:


> Well, it doesn't say anything about the ISI now does it?



The Daily Star article did mention ISI in this matter. Moreover, who do you think Yahya Khan, being the military dictator, would rely for such information? Can't see any other option than ISI!



> Even then, no intelligence agency in the world would share information with the media, or anywhere in public. Period.



They didn't share it, these info were probably disclosed in the books written by the retired Pakistani officers decades after the war.


----------



## Zabaniyah

extra terrestrial said:


> The Daily Star article did mention ISI in this matter. Moreover, who do you think Yahya Khan, being the military dictator, would rely for such information? Can't see any other option than ISI!



Daily Star's credibility in such matters are as good as horse-$hit. That was proven in this very forum. 

And why would we assume that it was ISI who provided Yahya with such information? Is it an intelligence agency's job to work in election matters? So what if he's a dictator? Or just because some 2 Cent Bangladeshi newspaper said so? No one with any real spine would buy anything from them in such matters. 



> They didn't share it, these info were probably disclosed in the books written by the retired Pakistani officers decades after the war.



Then perhaps they can disclose as to who those "Rajaakars" really were. Who were those individuals that provided the PA with incorrect and devious information as to the whereabouts of Awami activists? And then perhaps there can be a full closure on the matter. Otherwise, they are all but talk. Most of those people write books to make money. That's just about it.


----------



## extra terrestrial

Loki said:


> Daily Star's credibility in such matters are as good as horse-$hit. That was proven in this very forum.



Alright, perhaps I wasn't present here when it was proven but ain't the international media still rely on that newspaper for Bangladesh related affairs?



> And why would we assume that it was ISI who provided Yahya with such information? Is it an intelligence agency's job to work in election matters? So what if he's a dictator? Or just because some 2 Cent Bangladeshi newspaper said so? No one with any real spine would buy anything from them in such matters.



Then who do you think provided Yahya with those info? If I were a military dictator, I would surely not rely on any ordinary sources but the highest intelligence agency of the country. They didn't work in election matters but provided Yahya with inside info about the political parties and their popularity, quite justified IMO.



> Then perhaps they can disclose as to who those "Rajaakars" really were.



Well, they might have disclosed the names of Rajakars, while it's different if the Awami League government would use them in the prosecutions. 



> Who were those individuals that provided the PA with incorrect and devious information as to the whereabouts of Awami activists? And then perhaps there can be a full closure on the matter. Otherwise, they are all but talk. Most of those people write books to make money. That's just about it.



Not that knowledgeable in this particular matter, I'm just going with what I've read. About your comment on the those authors, can't deny that, but yet can't generalize them. As an exceptional, Khadim Hussain Raja refrained from publishing his book "A stranger in my own country" in his life time and was only published posthumously.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Zabaniyah

extra terrestrial said:


> Alright, perhaps I wasn't present here when it was proven but ain't the international media still rely on that newspaper for Bangladesh related affairs?



Not necessarily in matters relating to security and military history. I failed to find one, just one credible article coming from them in relation to such affairs. 

They even once claimed that ISI funded BNP during the elections back in the early 90's. Figured out that the claim orginated from an anonymous Dubai-based newspaper. Now that's not evidence. Coming back to the point, an intelligence agency never shares information with the public. 



> Then who do you think provided Yahya with those info? If I were a military dictator, I would surely not rely on any ordinary sources but the highest intelligence agency of the country. They didn't work in election matters but provided Yahya with inside info about the political parties and their popularity, quite justified IMO.



Again? Where's their proof? Assumptions don't count. 



> Well, they might have disclosed the names of Rajakars, while it's different if the Awami League government would use them in the prosecutions.



Again, proof that Pakistan had offered information in regards to that. Not mere fairy tales or maybes. Information management was never Bangladesh's greatest strength back in the 70's. And still isn't. 

But I think it's better if we see how that goes.


----------



## extra terrestrial

Loki said:


> Not necessarily in matters relating to security and military history. I failed to find one, just one credible article coming from them in relation to such affairs.
> 
> They even once claimed that ISI funded BNP during the elections back in the early 90's. Figured out that the claim orginated from an anonymous Dubai-based newspaper. Now that's not evidence. Coming back to the point, an intelligence agency never shares information with the public.



Ok not advocating for Daily Star but you once posted a file of wikileaks (back in 2011 I guess) where an army officer was seeking to know possible US reaction from the ambassador if there was a coup, in that file it was also mentioned that Raw funded Awami League during the 96 elections while ISI funded BNP if I remember correctly.



> Again? Where's their proof? Assumptions don't count.



It was a mere column by a Pakistani author, not a research book after all.  



> Again, proof that Pakistan had offered information in regards to that. Not mere fairy tales or maybes. Information management was never Bangladesh's greatest strength back in the 70's. And still isn't.
> 
> But *I think it's better if we see how that goes.*



for the bold part, that's all we can do for now!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## asad71

Anubis said:


> Point 3 of Lahore resolution says 'independent states in which the constituent units shall be autonomous and soverign'
> 3. The adjacent territorial units should be demarcated into regions that may involve some territorial adjustments in a manner that the areas in which the Muslims are numerically in a majority as in north-western and eastern zones of India become independent states in which the constituent units shall be autonomous and sovereign.
> 
> An interpretation of the Lahore Resolution - DAWN.COM
> 
> What happened to the 'states' and how did it become 'a state'??



1. Benglaee Muslims had pioneered the Pakistan /Two Nation movement for many reasons.

a. The Message of Islam had arrived at the shore of Bengal-Arakan during the lifetime of the Holy Prophet pbuh - which was much earlier than the western extremity of SA. Thereafter various teachers/sufi saints had settled down in this land to serve Islam and the Muslims. Whether revolting against Emperor Akbar against his coziness with the Hindu faith, or the revolt against the English Co 1857, or subsequent Faraizi movement, or Titumir's Jihad, or the sustained aid to the Pashtun struggle against the British including total acceptance of Shaheed Syed Ahmed's Jihad, or the Khilafat movement, the Bengalee Muslims never shirked in serving Islam. Having received the Message unadulterated and direct they nurtured it carefully over the centuries. 

b. Bengalee Muslims had been rendered poor and mostly illiterate after the Permanent Settlement Act. The British rulers, the Hindu zamindars and the Hindu mahajons (banyas) exploited the Muslims with all the powers and resources remaining at their command.

c. Bengalee Muslims sought to retrieve their sovereign land of Bangla-Bihar-Orissa that they had lost to the treachery of Hindu Marwaris, Hindu clergy, the English cheats and the ambitious traitors in the Court.

2. The personality clash between Shere Bangla and Jinnah needs to be understood also. Just look at Shere Bangla's CV.A. K. Fazlul Huq - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. What an outstanding man he was! The personal differences between the two began during the Lahore Session of AIML when the Lahore Resolution 1940 was adopted. Earler Gandhi had called him a iger of Bengal when during a conference Huq had pounded the table so hard that it broke into pieces. He was a tall and powerful man physically known to devour enormous amount of food. Huq, then PM of India's largest province, had arrived late at the meeting when Jinnah was already in the midst of his chairman's address- and Jinnah spoke in English only. When Huq arrived he was received with full-throated cries of "Shere Bangla - Zindabad". This a spontaneous response by the Lahorites, and thereafter the title Shere Bangla stuck with his name. The audience now clamored for Jinnah to stop his speech and let Shere Bangla speak. It took Huq 8 mins to quieten the audience to hear Jinnah first. Then Jinnah made this famous comment, "When the Tiger enters, the lamb must give way." Huq was a very good orator in Urdu as in Bangla. He was also fluent in Arabic, Persian as in English.When Huq had joined the Viceroy's War Council, Jinnah asked him and other Muslim members to resign. Huq complied but also resigned from AML. Huq was motivated by factors in Bengal politics which non-Bengalee members of AIML high command did not appreciate. The contribution of Huq in freeing the Bengalee Muslims from the never-ending debt to the mahajon banyas and in spreading education among the Bengalee Muslims is service by leader unparalleled in the annuls of history when you consider the Brits were still the rulers.

3. The next AIML session was held at Delhi,1946 when H. Suhroawrady (HS) was the PM of Bengal. HS was another outstanding man coming from an elite family of scholars. At the behest of Jinnah it fell on him to move the resolution amending the original expunging the letter "s". There was much opposition to this from Bengal but HS complied with Jinnah's instruction.

4. The 1945-46 elections were held as the crucial referendum for the Pakistan project. HS,as the leader of BPML, single handedly won this election for AIML in Bengal. Jinnah had interfered with the parliamentary board in Sind and such he was not invited for election campaign in Bengal.Liaqat had visited Gafargaon, Mymensingh once but AIML had lost this seat miserably. The result was complete victory for ML in Bengal. The tally was 114 out of 119, the other 5 going to Huq's KPP. NWFP,Punjab and Sind had voted against Pakistan.

5. *Therefore, there would be no Pakistan without Bengal and without removal of the "s"*. This point somehow was not explained to the Bengalees adequately at that time. Furthermore and crucially, effort should have been made immediately after Partition to return to the Lahore Resolution. But soon after Jinnah's death Liaqat Ali Khan and the feudal-industrial interests as well as bureaucrats had entered into powerful positions in the state to convert the the Eastern wing into an object of exploitation. Perhaps Ayub had sincerely desired to reverse the process, but he had lost his time by then.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## kalu_miah

@asad71 Bhai, when you have some free time, I would like to request you to give us info in brief about role of the following people in late 1960's Agartala case:

1. Shawkat Ali and others in RAW payroll (around 1500)
2. Sheikh Mujib
3. 34 others accused in the case
4. Ayub Khan
5. Yahya Khan
6. Bhashani

Reference:
BANGLAPEDIA: Agartala Conspiracy Case

And also please elaborate on:
1. the idea that then East Pakistan Bengali Muslims shook hands with India, an enemy state and thus can be described as traitors.
2. who can be blamed for the breakup of Pakistan, RAW agents who infiltrated and started killing Biharis, or Yahya Khan who led the team that planned and executed Operation Searchlight. How about a combination of both factors above or none of the above?


----------



## Tameem

asad71 said:


> 5. *Therefore, there would be no Pakistan without Bengal*


*

Absolutely and whole Pakistan economy flourishes on the sale money of Jute alone, produce at poor Bengal itself and if somehow Bengal came out from this union Pakistan as an entity evaporates in air instantly.

Sir, Its been 40 years now and people of West Pakistan preserve and nourishes the two nation theory like bible despite having an heterogeneous demographics in nature and its per capita is still handsomely above to east to the very least.......*

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## asad71

Tameem said:


> Absolutely and whole Pakistan economy flourishes on the sale money of Jute alone, produce at poor Bengal itself and if somehow Bengal came out from this union Pakistan as an entity evaporates in air instantly.
> 
> Sir, Its been 40 years now and people of West Pakistan preserve and nourishes the two nation theory like bible despite having an heterogeneous demographics in nature and its per capita is still handsomely above to east to the very least.......



1. With wars raging in Korea and Vietnam, jute and tea were hot forex earners. At Partition almost all jute mills were located in and around Calcutta. With the zeal/josh of independence Pakistan quickly set up rows of jute mills. Under GOC, Gen Umrao Khan Op Jute was launched to totally eradicate jute smuggling to India forcing India's jute mills to literally shut down. But then the visible beneficiaries were not Bengalees. Although Adamjees,Bawanis, Dawoods, etc were not indigenous W Pakistanis, the common misconception was that they were Punjabi.

2. Jinnah's vision had extended beyond the creation of Pakistan with the Two Nation Theory.One needs to read, again and again, his last address - delivered at the opening of SBP,Karachi. One needs to study the exchange of his correspondence with Saudi King Abdul Aziz. And his deliberations with the Egyptian ulema at Cairo. He was deeply influenced by Allama Iqbal. Shere Bangla and Suhrowardy were highly learned persons with exceptional intellect. Other like Maulana Zafar Ali Khan, etc in fact many Indian Muslim learned men and ulama were in constant touch with him leaving their influence on his incisive mind. We also must understand the deep impact of the stance by the Hindu leaders on him. Not only did he feel betrayed and disgusted, he began thinking of alternatives to protect the Muslim interest.

3. In the second phase, after consolidating Pakistan Jinnah would have moved to champion the emancipation of the ummah who were then under the British,French, the Dutch and communism. Pan-Islamism of Jamaluddin Afghani and Allama Iqbal had gained his attention. Among Pakistani leaders Gen Zia had understood this well, and was killed because he was moving towards that. A man of many defects otherwise, Iskanadar Mirza had also understood this. Don't forget it was he who had declared Pakistan an Islamic Republic.

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## asad71

kalu_miah said:


> @asad71 Bhai, when you have some free time, I would like to request you to give us info in brief about role of the following people in late 1960's Agartala case:
> 
> 1. Shawkat Ali and others in RAW payroll (around 1500)
> 2. Sheikh Mujib
> 3. 34 others accused in the case
> 4. Ayub Khan
> 5. Yahya Khan
> 6. Bhashani
> 
> Reference:
> BANGLAPEDIA: Agartala Conspiracy Case
> 
> And also please elaborate on:
> 1. the idea that then East Pakistan Bengali Muslims shook hands with India, an enemy state and thus can be described as traitors.
> 2. who can be blamed for the breakup of Pakistan, RAW agents who infiltrated and started killing Biharis, or Yahya Khan who led the team that planned and executed Operation Searchlight. How about a combination of both factors above or none of the above?



Can I request you to remind me after a few days? I may forget. Let me get free from the Eid festivities.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## asad71

kalu_miah said:


> @asad71 Bhai, when you have some free time, I would like to request you to give us info in brief about role of the following people in late 1960's Agartala case:
> 
> 1. Shawkat Ali and others in RAW payroll (around 1500)
> 2. Sheikh Mujib
> 3. 34 others accused in the case
> 4. Ayub Khan
> 5. Yahya Khan
> 6. Bhashani
> 
> Reference:
> BANGLAPEDIA: Agartala Conspiracy Case
> 
> And also please elaborate on:
> 1. the idea that then East Pakistan Bengali Muslims shook hands with India, an enemy state and thus can be described as traitors.
> 2. who can be blamed for the breakup of Pakistan, RAW agents who infiltrated and started killing Biharis, or Yahya Khan who led the team that planned and executed Operation Searchlight. How about a combination of both factors above or none of the above?



Could you kindly remind me after the Eid festivities are over? I may forget.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## kalu_miah

asad71 said:


> Could you kindly remind me after the Eid festivities are over? I may forget.



Ok, I will remind you if you forget to get back to this thread to answer these questions. From your posts it looks like you are the most qualified to pass opinions on these issues which are closer to the actual history. As I found previously you knew right away, Shawkat Ali was lying and perhaps current group of AL leaders as well, to create a new version of history for their personal and party benefit and I wasted much time trying to uncover this fact.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## khair_ctg

Loki said:


> Some unknown Pakistani guy writing on Daily Star knowing about information provided by ISI? Cool story by them as always
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, I was talking about English medium. Particularly those examinations held under Cambridge University at British Council. They do have Bangladesh Studies as a course.
> British Council, Bangladesh



how dare Daily Star publishes info from former ISI member? it should rather just continue its work for Indian intelligence

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Zabaniyah

kalu_miah said:


> Ok, I will remind you if you forget to get back to this thread to answer these questions. From your posts it looks like you are the most qualified to pass opinions on these issues which are closer to the actual history. *As I found previously you knew right away, Shawkat Ali was lying and perhaps current group of AL leaders as well, to create a new version of history for their personal and party benefit* and I wasted much time trying to uncover this fact.



You are not alone. Many people are thinking that.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## little oax

jbond197 said:


> Razakars version of the events.. Ask any real Bangladeshi about what happened in 1971 rather than a Jamati/Razakar..



Yes a Bangladeshi is talking here not a brain dead awami cocksucker on RAW's payrol!

The above is an anlytical writing about some facts and events that affected the whole sub-continent's geopolitical situation especially the muslim community.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## MohitV

Pakistanisage said:


> I think we need to to closer ties and cooperation between Pakistan and Bangladesh because we still have a behemoth enemy named India.



oh u.... :3


----------



## my2cents

kalu_miah said:


> First of all, some disclaimer. I am a loyal citizen of Bangladesh (as well as the US), but I believe we need to find facts about our own history. So these are part of my efforts to uncover some uncomfortable facts and ask some hard questions. Please do not take these efforts to mean that I am pro or anti independence of Bangladesh, I am neither and I accept it as a fait accompli, a done deal that cannot be reversed. Like the majority of Bangladeshi's living today, I had no role in that conflict in 1971. As far as I know my parents did not play any role either.
> 
> Questions:
> 
> 1. Sure there was economic deprivation, but were the West Pakistani's killing us since 1950's?
> 2. Who gave the right to Mujib to make this decision on behalf of East Pakistan to secede?
> 2. Who started the killing, were it not the planned saboteurs of Indian trained Awami agents who started the killings of Biharis months before Operation Searchlight?
> 3. Who gave the right to Mujib to seek help and become the partner of our 800 year old enemy entity, Hindu's of South Asia?
> 4. Is it not possible that instead of seeking help from an enemy that hates us Muslims to the core, that we could confront and raise this issue with our "oppressor" the West Pakistani's who were fellow Muslims after all?
> 5. If some of our "leaders" did not conspire with our enemy and committed treason (partner with an enemy state to plan for secession) and if we tried to solve these issues honestly, frankly and in a straight forward way, do we think we would still be treated the way we were treated (operation searchlight)?
> 
> If we could peacefully resolve the differences between the two wings of Pakistan and achieve autonomy or amicable separation, then:
> 
> 1. hundreds of thousands of people (Hindu's, Bengali Muslims, non-Bengali Muslims) would not be killed and become victims of rape and other atrocities
> 2. we could still have a better relationship between the 2nd and 3rd largest Muslim countries of the world
> 3. India would not gloat of their victory against West Pakistan and gifting us our "independence"
> 4. both parts would not become weaker, as both could share the nuclear power
> 5. India would not dare to proceed with its water terrorism, border violence and Shanti Bahini insurgency against Bangladesh
> 6. last but not least North East today may have become partly independent if not completely
> 
> Now can we say that India found a "useful idiot" who had a bunch of other idiot followers to achieve India's goal to break Pakistan, the largest Muslim country in the world, and thus reduce strategic threats for Indian nation? In the process, hundreds of thousands of people got killed in the civil war and a great rift was created among two of the largest Muslim communities of the world.
> 
> Now can we say that Awami League should never be trusted again by people of Bangladesh and it should be banned and abolished, so the joint team of Awami League and Indian intelligence cannot hurt the national interest of Bangladesh any further?



I don't know if what Mr Mujib did is right or wrong but the way the things shaped up are not his entire fault. Was he a freedom fighter or a traitor is for you guys to decide. (I am taking out the BS about muslim brotherhood out of this equation because it will only make everything muddy.)

Mujib wanted to make east pakistan an autonomous province had the backing of Bengali people. That was the crux of this six point demands. He rallied his election on this platform and the Awami League's majority in the ensuing elections promised it control of the government, with Mujib as the country's prime minister. He would have gotten all his six point demands met constitutionally provided the military backed him up. But the inaugural assembly never met and he was denied his due process. If this would have happened then there would have been some solution to the vexing issue of autonomy which the west pakistan opposed vehemently. Also the issue of Urdu as the national language would have been put in back burner if Mujib had his way.

By not accepting results of the electoral mandate and derailing democratic process, West Pakistan wanted to show who were the boss. They controlled all the three wings of the military. On top of that their brutal military crackdown was a spit on the face of Bengali people. All the tactics to intimidate the Bengalis into submission can be characterized to show that they never accepted you as equal. If you characterize Mujib as a traitor because he was fighting for the cause Bengali nationhood then how would to characterize Mr. Jinnah...because he was fighting for the cause of muslim nationhood. 

I am being brutally honest here and you can accept it for what its worth.

my2cents

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Zabaniyah

my2cents said:


> I don't know if what Mr Mujib did is right or wrong but the way the things shaped up are not his entire fault. Was he a freedom fighter or a traitor is for you guys to decide. (I am taking out the BS about muslim brotherhood out of this equation because it will only make everything muddy.)
> 
> Mujib wanted to make east pakistan an autonomous province had the backing of Bengali people. That was the crux of this six point demands. He rallied his election on this platform and the Awami League's majority in the ensuing elections promised it control of the government, with Mujib as the country's prime minister. He would have gotten all his six point demands met constitutionally provided the military backed him up. But the inaugural assembly never met and he was denied his due process. If this would have happened then there would have been some solution to the vexing issue of autonomy which the west pakistan opposed vehemently. Also the issue of Urdu as the national language would have been put in back burner if Mujib had his way.
> 
> By not accepting results of the electoral mandate and derailing democratic process, West Pakistan wanted to show who were the boss. They controlled all the three wings of the military. On top of that their brutal military crackdown was a spit on the face of Bengali people. All the tactics to intimidate the Bengalis into submission can be characterized to show that they never accepted you as equal. If you characterize Mujib as a traitor because he was fighting for the cause Bengali nationhood then how would to characterize Mr. Jinnah...because he was fighting for the cause of muslim nationhood.
> 
> I am being brutally honest here and you can accept it for what its worth.
> 
> my2cents



He simply spoke out about what Bengalis wanted. A talented orator indeed. You are not wrong in what you said. Mujib was however misinformed. A man who clearly bit off more than he could ever hopped to chew. And no, I do not consider him as a traitor. 

Again, what you stated isn't wrong, but it isn't the complete story behind Mujib. One cannot ignore the fact that Mujib's reign lasted for a very small amount of time, and ultimately slain by the very men who fought for him. Yes, Major Dalim and Mujib were close family friends. 

Respect is not equal to admiration.


----------



## kalu_miah

my2cents said:


> I don't know if what Mr Mujib did is right or wrong but the way the things shaped up are not his entire fault. Was he a freedom fighter or a traitor is for you guys to decide. (I am taking out the BS about muslim brotherhood out of this equation because it will only make everything muddy.)
> 
> Mujib wanted to make east pakistan an autonomous province had the backing of Bengali people. That was the crux of this six point demands. He rallied his election on this platform and the Awami League's majority in the ensuing elections promised it control of the government, with Mujib as the country's prime minister. He would have gotten all his six point demands met constitutionally provided the military backed him up. But the inaugural assembly never met and he was denied his due process. If this would have happened then there would have been some solution to the vexing issue of autonomy which the west pakistan opposed vehemently. Also the issue of Urdu as the national language would have been put in back burner if Mujib had his way.
> 
> By not accepting results of the electoral mandate and derailing democratic process, West Pakistan wanted to show who were the boss. They controlled all the three wings of the military. On top of that their brutal military crackdown was a spit on the face of Bengali people. All the tactics to intimidate the Bengalis into submission can be characterized to show that they never accepted you as equal. If you characterize Mujib as a traitor because he was fighting for the cause Bengali nationhood then how would to characterize Mr. Jinnah...because he was fighting for the cause of muslim nationhood.
> 
> I am being brutally honest here and you can accept it for what its worth.
> 
> my2cents



The OP was an opening statement, mainly motivated by the admission of Retd. Colonel Shawkat Ali, the current Deputy Speaker, that Agartala case involved Sheikh Mujib. You should read through the entire thread to see what conclusion I reach before firing off your Indian mouth. And why does it matter to you anyways, one way or the other? Let Bangladeshi's deal with this issue, it is none of your business to tell us what we know more than anyone else.


----------



## my2cents

kalu_miah said:


> The OP was an opening statement, mainly motivated by the admission of Retd. Colonel Shawkat Ali, the current Deputy Speaker, that Agartala case involved Sheikh Mujib. You should read through the entire thread to see what conclusion I reach before firing off your Indian mouth. And why does it matter to you anyways, one way or the other? Let Bangladeshi's deal with this issue, it is none of your business to tell us what we know more than anyone else.



I don't have to read the entire thread which is 25 pages long to something which is obvious.


----------



## Zabaniyah

my2cents said:


> I don't have to read the entire thread which is 25 pages long to something which is obvious.



So that's like saying: "I win the debate."

Damn....that's just Aristotlean...


----------



## kalu_miah

Loki said:


> So that's like saying: "I win the debate."
> 
> Damn....that's just Aristotlean...



Well its not Aristotlean, but it is typically Indian, everything is always obvious to them, without even going into details. That is the beauty of being a typical Indian.


----------



## my2cents

Loki said:


> So that's like saying: "I win the debate."
> 
> Damn....that's just Aristotlean...



 Looks like you did not see my disclaimer.



> I am being brutally honest here and you can accept it for what its worth.


----------



## Zabaniyah

my2cents said:


> Looks like you did not see my disclaimer.



Well, you did say that you don't know if Mujib was right or wrong right from the start. For all that's worth, nobody really knows for sure about what went on for Mujib and his lackeys as far as Agartala goes.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## shiv

mujib drank some exotic tripura tea and went on to liberate country from clutches of the beacon of Islam


----------



## kalu_miah

The man who broke Pakistan and created Bangladesh: Serazul Alam Khan

While SAK started his "Nucleus" with Abdur Razzak and Kazi Aref in 1962, there was another man who never accepted the idea of Pakistan, as Abdur Razzak describes in the videos in following posts. Sheikh Mujibur Rahman moved to East Pakistan soon after Partition and he started dreaming of making the Eastern wing independent. It was Mujib who sent out his agent Sutar to Kolkata and asked him to stay there and keep in touch with Indian govt. just in case any help is needed from them. So Mujib was secretly in touch with Indian govt. all along. The SAK lead socialist group "Nucleus" was active separately and secretly although they joined Awami League quite early. They informed Mujib about this secret "Nucleus" in 1969. When they were making rounds with many prominent politicians with the idea of making East Pakistan independent, none gave them much heed or agreed with their outlandish plan. Only Mujib due to his earlier dream agreed to bring them under his wing and let them work towards their common goal, but making sure that this connection with Mujib not revealed. And yes Agartala conspiracy was 100% true, Mujib was trying to break Pakistan with India's help all along.

After 25th March 1971, when the civil war broke out in then East Pakistan, all Awami leaders were instructed to go to Sutar (by then a fully established RAW agent) to an address in Kolkata that Mujib gave them. Tajuddin did not follow that instruction but went directly to Delhi instead. For a few days Indira Gandhi did not meet with him till she got confirmation from Sutar that Tajuddin indeed was the leader designated by Mujib. Also due to Mujib's instruction and plan, Mujib Bahini was created with the then SAK team of 4:
Serajul Alam Khan
Tofael Ahmed
Abdur Razzak and
Sheikh Fazlul Haq Mani

Mujib Bahini vs Mukti Bahini

cross posted:

Chittaranjan Sutar | RAW sanctuaries | ZoomInfo.com

The DIB also knew that Chittaranjan Sutar and Kalidas Baidya, who were both Pakistani citizens, had a connection with this secret organization.
...
The key RAW figure at these meetings was undoubtedlyChittaranjan Sutar, who had been appointed Sheikh Mujib'srepresentative in India and had direct access to the Indian Prime Minister and other senior officials of the government.He was later assigned the important task of makingBangladesh a part of India of which the Mujib Bahini may come to have played a crucial role until events escalated out of their control in 1975.
...
Since his arrival in India Sheikh Moni had developed a good working relationship with RAW, the Indian intelligence service, through Chittaranjan Sutar.
...
Sutar's importance to Indian designs, of which the Mujib Bahini were to play an important part, were revealed in an interview of Humayan Rashed Chowdhury, a former diplomat to the UN and India and a former speaker of Parliament, where it had been disclosed to him that Chittaranjan Sutarhad been instructed by Indira Gandhi on 28 December, 1971 to make Bangladesh a part of India (Masudul Haq pg.
...
In the first chapter of the book, 'Our Work Begins in Dhaka' we are told that the author, Chittaranjan Sutar and Nirod Majumder entered Dhaka at the end of 1951. As we already know from 'Sheikh Mujib Triumph and Tragedy' (2005)Chittaranjan Sutar was a RAW operative and so the author unwittingly discloses his own identity as a RAW agent.
...
It was, however, long before the 1964 Kolkata riots thatChittaranjan Sutar (Chittababu) and Kalidas gave Sheikh Mujib the assurance that all the Hindu's of East Bengal would accept him as their leader and under him support the movement for self-rule of 'East Bengal'.
...
S.A. Karim in his book phrases it slightly differently, 'Sheikh Mujib Triumph and Tragedy' (2005), "He [Chittaranjan Sutar] was a Hindu Awami Leaguer from Barisal who had been asked by Mujib in the late 1960's to settle in Kolkata in maintain contact with the Indian authorities in case any help was needed from them."
...
S.A. Karim in his book phrases it slightly differently, 'Sheikh Mujib Triumph and Tragedy' (2005), "He [Chittaranjan Sutar] was a Hindu Awami Leaguer from Barisal who had been asked by Mujib in the late 1960's to settle in Kolkata in maintain contact with the Indian authorities the date October 1971 in his book 'The Chittagong Hill Tracts: A Victim of Indian interference' (2003) on page 117 but it is not clear where he got this information.


----------



## asad71

@
*kalu_miah, 
[URL='https://defence.pk/members/loki.38840/']Loki
[/URL]*






Kindly see this.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## kalu_miah

asad71 said:


> @
> *kalu_miah, *
> *Loki*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kindly see this.



This statement conclusively proves that 3 million was a mistaken quote, and 300,000 figure was what was told to Mujib.


----------



## asad71

kalu_miah said:


> This statement conclusively proves that 3 million was a mistaken quote, and 300,000 figure was what was told to Mujib.


----------



## Cold Blood

@kalu_miah bro, we should now forget the past and look forward to remove the differences. Pakistan's leaders were incapable or rather reluctant to solve the major issues between the two wings and the opportunists utilized the situation pretty well. Moreover, it was an impractical decision to merge two different geographical regions to form the new country.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## asad71

Cold Blood said:


> @kalu_miah bro, we should now forget the past and look forward to remove the differences. Pakistan's leaders were incapable or rather reluctant to solve the major issues between the two wings and the opportunists utilized the situation pretty well. Moreover, it was an impractical decision to merge two different geographical regions to form the new country.


Without a cooperation/understanding between the Muslims of the Indus valley and the Muslims of the Brahmaputra-Gangetic delta, it will be a matter of time before the Ummat'e Muhammadi are wiped out of SA.


----------



## Cold Blood

asad71 said:


> Without a cooperation/understanding between the Muslims of the Indus valley and the Muslims of the Brahmaputra-Gangetic delta, it will be a matter of time before the Ummat'e Muhammadi are wiped out of SA.



Cooperation is always needed, but its not possible to wipe out this vast Muslim population from South Asia. Moreover, Islam has its own unique characteristics that creates the fervor among humans. Islam will continue to grow in South Asia as it's been growing for the past 1400 years.


----------



## kalu_miah

Cold Blood said:


> @kalu_miah bro, we should now forget the past and look forward to remove the differences. Pakistan's leaders were incapable or rather reluctant to solve the major issues between the two wings and the opportunists utilized the situation pretty well. Moreover, it was an impractical decision to merge two different geographical regions to form the new country.



I appreciate your sentiment, welcome to the forum by the way.

The issue is a little more complex than you stated. We cannot forget the past, because the traitors that were plotting behind the back of our people and manipulated our people, on an Indo-Soviet expansionist agenda, are still active, in fact they are killing people of opposition as we speak. So in my opinion, the more we dig out the past, the more we inform the people, the better our people will be able to understand how they were manipulated.

Of course it would have been better off to have separate countries to begin with, but that was not the sentiment back then, it was an overwhelming sentiment of unity for all South Asian Muslims, but sleeper cells became active to change all that, blinded by their arrogance that they have all the answers as they believed in some ideology. Little did they see that these people like Serajul Alam Khan, his Nucleus team and Sheikh Mujib, all were useful idiots and pawns in the geopolitical chess board for Indian expansionism, which is the mirror image of Soviet or earlier Imperial Tsarist expansionism. Ideology was used as a cover for their expansionist goal. The Chinese understood it and vehemently opposed it, but most of our leaders were clueless to understand what they were doing to our people.

The other thing is, if there was no plotting by this Nucleus from 1962 and Mujib since he created Awami League together with Hindu members of East Pakistan congress, if there was no India hand in all this, we could always peacefully separate from West wing in course of time. The civil war, the resulting killing of estimated 300,000 people (both Bengali and non-Bengali) created a permanent scar between:
- Bengali Muslims
- non-Bengali Muslims
of South Asia.

This was the Indo-Soviet plan to weaken Muslims of South Asia, their eternal enemy.

So today we stand as a weak vulnerable country, which is now infiltrated fully and being controlled by Indian intelligence. Stick around this forum and see if all Bangladeshi's here can discuss how we can get out of this situation.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## asad71

Cold Blood said:


> Cooperation is always needed, but its not possible to wipe out this vast Muslim population from South Asia. Moreover, Islam has its own unique characteristics that creates the fervor among humans. Islam will continue to grow in South Asia as it's been growing for the past 1400 years.


1.These are the sentiments of all Muslims. We have the capacity to rise from the ashes/Karabala. However, we MUST NOT forget al Andalusia.
2. In SA Hindu extremism received latitude during Akbar's reign. We see a visible rise with the rise of Sivaji. The Brahmin priests had conspired with the English Co for the debacle at Palassy, 23 June 1757. Then we saw the Hindus, barring few patriots, allying with the English during the 1857 revolt. Post-partition the attitude of the Hindus came out in the open. Thereafter we have seen an endless chain of anti-Muslim riots.Put all these in a mosaic and our situation does not appear happy.Jinnah, Suhrowardy and the founding fathers of Pakistan were not fools to enunciate The Two Nation Theory.Not only in India itself but in Kashmir, Assam, Arakan and SL we see the slaughter of Muslims continuing.
3. The Hindu pogrom of ethic cleansing is real. Let us beware.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Cold Blood

kalu_miah said:


> I appreciate your sentiment, welcome to the forum by the way.
> 
> The issue is a little more complex than you stated. We cannot forget the past, because the traitors that were plotting behind the back of our people and manipulated our people, on an Indo-Soviet expansionist agenda, are still active, in fact they are killing people of opposition as we speak. So in my opinion, the more we dig out the past, the more we inform the people, the better our people will be able to understand how they were manipulated.
> 
> Of course it would have been better off to have separate countries to begin with, but that was not the sentiment back then, it was an overwhelming sentiment of unity for all South Asian Muslims, but sleeper cells became active to change all that, blinded by their arrogance that they have all the answers as they believed in some ideology. Little did they see that these people like Serajul Alam Khan, his Nucleus team and Sheikh Mujib, all were useful idiots and pawns in the geopolitical chess board for Indian expansionism, which is the mirror image of Soviet or earlier Imperial Tsarist expansionism. Ideology was used as a cover for their expansionist goal. The Chinese understood it and vehemently opposed it, but most of our leaders were clueless to understand what they were doing to our people.
> 
> The other thing is, if there was no plotting by this Nucleus from 1962 and Mujib since he created Awami League together with Hindu members of East Pakistan congress, if there was no India hand in all this, we could always peacefully separate from West wing in course of time. The civil war, the resulting killing of estimated 300,000 people (both Bengali and non-Bengali) created a permanent scar between:
> - Bengali Muslims
> - non-Bengali Muslims
> of South Asia.
> 
> This was the Indo-Soviet plan to weaken Muslims of South Asia, their eternal enemy.
> 
> So today we stand as a weak vulnerable country, which is now infiltrated fully and being controlled by Indian intelligence. Stick around this forum and see if all Bangladeshi's here can discuss how we can get out of this situation.



Thank You for welcoming me.

Yes, I agree that the outsiders exploited the situation, but why did you let the situation to develop like that in the first place? A wall will never broke if you don't let the cracks to develop. If there was no discriminations to the East Pakistanis, had India been able to exploit the situation?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## the just

Cold Blood said:


> Thank You for welcoming me.
> 
> Yes, I agree that the outsiders exploited the situation, but why did you let the situation to develop like that in the first place? A wall will never broke if you don't let the cracks to develop. If there was no discriminations to the East Pakistanis, had India been able to exploit the situation?


True.the problem was there,and in some cases really prejudiced against bangalis.Starting from Army,hospitals, schools ,government jobs .you name it.discrimination against bangalis were getting out of hand by mid 60s.
There is nothing to claim that the situations would have improved. At the same time educated bangalis was divided into two groups. Each had their own reason to support their own cause.
The path of history shows that eventually we would have separated. But that does not give certain people right to exploit the uneducated mass .

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## kalu_miah

Cold Blood said:


> Thank You for welcoming me.
> 
> Yes, I agree that the outsiders exploited the situation, but why did you let the situation to develop like that in the first place? A wall will never broke if you don't let the cracks to develop. If there was no discriminations to the East Pakistanis, had India been able to exploit the situation?



There were faults from all sides, but there is an order of magnitude difference between nepotism, favoritism, discrimination and premeditated plotting and treason to break up a country, that was just formed few years earlier, as a result of the hope and aspiration of both wings.

From the video descriptions in the thread below:
The man who broke Pakistan and created Bangladesh: Serazul Alam Khan
it is possible that Mujib came up with this dream of an independent country quite early. It is possible that when the idea of United (independent) Bengal spearheaded by Suhrawardy was not accepted by Hindu Bengali's, the idea remained as the seed of a future independent East Bengal in Mujib's mind. I think he was a cunning man who operated in a way that he could not be directly caught in early stages. When ISI caught him finally, he already became much too popular and had enough followers and supporters, so it was no longer feasible to hang him or shoot him at a firing squad. He had also been instigating Bengali bureaucrats, army officers and other professionals (from early 1960's ?) with his idea of independence.

As we get some hints of the time line, what we need to find out are:
- at what point did IB (India's Intelligence Branch, RAW was formed in 1968 as an off shoot of IB) recruited Sutar, Nirod Majumdar and Kalidas Baidya?
- at what point did IB establish contact with Mujib, via one or more of the above 3 people

Once we get definite answers to the above two questions, we will be able to draw a conclusion about Mujib's idea of independent East Bengal and whether it was there even as early as 1947, when he left Kolkata after Partition and joined Dhaka University.

If the above can be established then everything else falls into place. Language movement and all other movements of Awami League can be understood and explained in one light, smaller parts of a much bigger master plan to break up the country. Essentially SAK led Nucleus (communist/socialist) formed in 1962 and Mujib led Awami League, both of these groups either were fully in touch with India from the beginning, or they unknowingly worked as useful idiots of Indo-Soviet expansionist plan. Mujib definitely got in touch with Sutar, and Sutar returned home from Kolkata to East Bengal, probably as an IB agent or became an IB agent at a later point.

SAK led socialist/communist Nucleus formed in 1962, I believe they were in touch with Soviets. In 1969, both of these separate teams came together and started working together from that point on.

If Mujib had this dream since 1971, then it would naturally follow that he and his team and party would run full time propaganda with help of already established Hindu journalists to brainwash our masses to blow out of proportion the discrimination they faced from non-Bengali Pakistani's and start to give them the idea that making the country independent by hook or by crook, would solve all their problems and make the independent entity a prosperous developed heaven, Sonar Bangla.

During all these Indo-Soviet machinations, the Chinese were the only people that stands out as a people who were vehemently opposed to these Indo-Soviet imperialist and expansionist ideas to break a country apart. They did try to influence events through the pro-China communists in then East Pakistan to prevent the break up as a well wisher of both wings, but their efforts did not succeed.

@asad71 @Akmal

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Skallagrim

@kalu_miah, five of the accused admit of their involvement in the conspiracy.

বিডিটুডে.নেট:‘আগরতলা মামলার অভিযোগ সত্য ছিল’

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Luffy 500

@kalu_miah i think u r mistaken if u think pro-indian/russian comunist and awami maggots can be bought into the chinese shere. BAL's indian dalali has more factors than just money involved. Communist (the pro-indian ones) for eg. are anti-muslim/Islam and they don't agree with 47 TNT ideology. As a result by nature they support anything that favours India and also BD communist tend to be pro-paganistic. BY their very nature and political ideology moscow communist are anti-religious. As for BAL, its a party brainless of dacoit thugs. Formed by direct Indian backing (i think u will agree) not to mention Hasina is eternally grateful to India and indira for giving her sheltre in India. Her son grew up in India. SHe owes to India her entire political carrier and present premiership of BD. Not to mention in case of any uprising , for BAL/communist next door India is the easiest and safest escape route from BD. They can't jump border to china. Don't forget most awami mafias and cappati chatra league thugs find safe heavens in India when BAL's not in power. India also knows more abt their henious deeds over the years than china and its easy for them to politically destroy BAL if they even think of something like switching masters. The only solution is completely uproot these indian planted parasites from BD's soil & deal with them just like how west and germany dealt with nazis.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## kalu_miah

Luffy 500 said:


> @kalu_miah i think u r mistaken if u think pro-indian/russian comunist and awami maggots can be bought into the chinese shere. BAL's indian dalali has more factors than just money involved. Communist (the pro-indian ones) for eg. are anti-muslim/Islam and they don't agree with 47 TNT ideology. As a result by nature they support anything that favours India and also BD communist tend to be pro-paganistic. BY their very nature and political ideology moscow communist are anti-religious. As for BAL, its a party brainless of dacoit thugs. Formed by direct Indian backing (i think u will agree) not to mention Hasina is eternally grateful to India and indira for giving her sheltre in India. Her son grew up in India. SHe owes to India her entire political carrier and present premiership of BD. Not to mention in case of any uprising , for BAL/communist next door India is the easiest and safest escape route from BD. They can't jump border to china. Don't forget most awami mafias and cappati chatra league thugs find safe heavens in India when BAL's not in power. India also knows more abt their henious deeds over the years than china and its easy for them to politically destroy BAL if they even think of something like switching masters. The only solution is completely uproot these indian planted parasites from BD's soil & deal with them just like how west and germany dealt with nazis.



Yes, that is the feeling I get from most people I talk to and it matches with your perception. But there are many opportunists among these groups and it is better to divide them and turn some of them to your side, rather then have them all united in one bloc, which will make it easier to defeat them. It is more of a tactical strategy.

We have 15-20 years till China reaches parity with the US, for now it is time to lay low, gain strength and prepare for that time.


----------



## khair_ctg

the just said:


> True.the problem was there,and in some cases really prejudiced against bangalis.Starting from Army,hospitals, schools ,government jobs .you name it.discrimination against bangalis were getting out of hand by mid 60s.
> There is nothing to claim that the situations would have improved. At the same time educated bangalis was divided into two groups. Each had their own reason to support their own cause.
> The path of history shows that eventually we would have separated. But that does not give certain people right to exploit the uneducated mass .





Cold Blood said:


> Thank You for welcoming me.
> 
> Yes, I agree that the outsiders exploited the situation, but why did you let the situation to develop like that in the first place? A wall will never broke if you don't let the cracks to develop. If there was no discriminations to the East Pakistanis, had India been able to exploit the situation?


so-called "discrimination by west pakistanis" was an expected smokescreen to justify indian annexation of bangladesh/east pakistan landmass. 1947 to 1971 was 24 years only. this short duration itself just isn't enough time for systematic discrimination to take place. most shortcomings of east pakistani bengalis were caused by nearly two centuries of discrimination by british colonizers and domination by hindu zamindar class. this exploitation and the economic disasters during that period (including massive famines the scale of which even other places of the subcontinent probably hadn’t seen) rendered the bengal muslims extremely illiterate and economically deceased.

this was the reason that groups of people could be rallied on an issue based on their confusion between what a provincial and a Pakistan state language were, and the reason that let them to believe fairytales that “they” were there to snatch away our “mother language”. let alone acknowledging the official form of the “mother language” was developed by Hindu zamindars who set out to “purify” Bengal off Muslims and Muslim influence. and the effects still lived on when the 21st February began to be pushed as a grand day of the year for all of “Bangali jaati” – above and way beyond the actual relevance or purpose of the event when it happened.

amid all this, the United Pakistan administration adopted Bengali as the other state language (besides the trans-provincial and neutral language Urdu) in 1954 giving way to ignorance-fueled mob politics. @the just you would still cry “discrimination”

even during this short period 47-71, amid all this self-inflicting harms from the actions of EP Bengali politicians, major reversals of the course of history were happening. after 1947, Bengali Muslims could get the highest scholarships in school (know about "roll number discrimination" against Muslim students in Hindu majority school pre 1947), attain positions in the military at certain levels, become high skilled professionals –things that were relatively unthinkable under Hindu mahajans and bhadralok class. Bengali prime ministers and presidents would have offices in Karachi (as West Pakistani leaders could have offices in Dhaka). and so what that the Punjabis were still greater in numbers in the military. @the just would then cry “discrimination”

nothing was enough for some EP politicians. everything was supposed to lead to "discrimination" and the need for Indian military to invade us (aka to "save" us)

if there was anyone discriminating anyone, it was EP Bengali led by vile politicians discriminating themselves in favour of Indian interests

and boy was he right....

_About language I have already said, this is in order to create disruption among the Musalmans. Your Prime Minister has rightIy pointed this out in a recent statement, and I am glad that his government have decided to put down firmly any attempt to disturb the peace of this province by political saboteurs or their agents. *Whether Bengali should be the official language of this province is a matter for the elected representatives of the people of this province to decide*. I have no doubt that this question should be decided solely in accordance with the wishes of the inhabitants of this province at the appropriate time. Let me tell you in clearest language that there is no truth [in rumors] that your normal life is to be touched or disturbed, so far as your Bengali language is concerned. But ultimately it is for you, the people of this province, to decide what should be the language of your province........................

But let me make it clear to you that the state language of Pakistan is going to be Urdu and no [255] other language. Anyone who tries to mislead [you] is merely the enemy of Pakistan. Without one state language, no nation can remain tied up solidly together and function. Look at the history of other countries. There[fore] so far as the state language is concerned, Pakistan's language should be Urdu; but, as I have said, it will come in time._

and i'm sometimes shocked at the accuracy of these words.... (@kalu_miah)

_But I want to tell you that in our midst there are people financed by foreign enemies, who are intent on creating disruption. Their object is to disrupt and sabotage Pakistan. I want you to be on your guard, I want you to be vigilant, and not to be taken in by attractive slogans and catchwords. *They say that the Pakistan government and the East Bengal government are out to destroy your language. [A] bigger falsehood was never uttered by a man. Quite frankly and openly, I must tell you that you have got amongst you a few Communists and other agents financed by foreign help, and if you are not careful, you will be disrupted. The idea that East Bengal should be brought back into the India Union is not given up, and it is their aim yet, and I am confident -- I am not afraid, but it is better to be vigilant -- that these people who still dream of getting back East Bengal into the Indian Union are living in a dreamland.*_

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## kalu_miah

khair_ctg said:


> so-called "discrimination by west pakistanis" was an expected smokescreen to justify indian annexation of bangladesh/east pakistan landmass. 1947 to 1971 was 24 years only. this short duration itself just isn't enough time for systematic discrimination to take place. most shortcomings of east pakistani bengalis were caused by nearly two centuries of discrimination by british colonizers and domination by hindu zamindar class. this exploitation and the economic disasters during that period (including massive famines the scale of which even other places of the subcontinent probably hadn’t seen) rendered the bengal muslims extremely illiterate and economically deceased.
> 
> this was the reason that groups of people could be rallied on an issue based on their confusion between what a provincial and a Pakistan state language were, and the reason that let them to believe fairytales that “they” were there to snatch away our “mother language”. let alone acknowledging the official form of the “mother language” was developed by Hindu zamindars who set out to “purify” Bengal off Muslims and Muslim influence. and the effects still lived on when the 21st February began to be pushed as a grand day of the year for all of “Bangali jaati” – above and way beyond the actual relevance or purpose of the event when it happened.
> 
> amid all this, the United Pakistan administration adopted Bengali as the other state language (besides the trans-provincial and neutral language Urdu) in 1954 giving way to ignorance-fueled mob politics. @the just you would still cry “discrimination”
> 
> even during this short period 47-71, amid all this self-inflicting harms from the actions of EP Bengali politicians, major reversals of the course of history were happening. after 1947, Bengali Muslims could get the highest scholarships in school (know about "roll number discrimination" against Muslim students in Hindu majority school pre 1947), attain positions in the military at certain levels, become high skilled professionals –things that were relatively unthinkable under Hindu mahajans and bhadralok class. Bengali prime ministers and presidents would have offices in Karachi (as West Pakistani leaders could have offices in Dhaka). and so what that the Punjabis were still greater in numbers in the military. @the just would then cry “discrimination”
> 
> nothing was enough for some EP politicians. everything was supposed to lead to "discrimination" and the need for Indian military to invade us (aka to "save" us)
> 
> if there was anyone discriminating anyone, it was EP Bengali led by vile politicians discriminating themselves in favour of Indian interests
> 
> and boy was he right....
> 
> _About language I have already said, this is in order to create disruption among the Musalmans. Your Prime Minister has rightIy pointed this out in a recent statement, and I am glad that his government have decided to put down firmly any attempt to disturb the peace of this province by political saboteurs or their agents. *Whether Bengali should be the official language of this province is a matter for the elected representatives of the people of this province to decide*. I have no doubt that this question should be decided solely in accordance with the wishes of the inhabitants of this province at the appropriate time. Let me tell you in clearest language that there is no truth [in rumors] that your normal life is to be touched or disturbed, so far as your Bengali language is concerned. But ultimately it is for you, the people of this province, to decide what should be the language of your province........................
> 
> But let me make it clear to you that the state language of Pakistan is going to be Urdu and no [255] other language. Anyone who tries to mislead [you] is merely the enemy of Pakistan. Without one state language, no nation can remain tied up solidly together and function. Look at the history of other countries. There[fore] so far as the state language is concerned, Pakistan's language should be Urdu; but, as I have said, it will come in time._
> 
> and i'm sometimes shocked at the accuracy of these words.... (@kalu_miah)
> 
> _But I want to tell you that in our midst there are people financed by foreign enemies, who are intent on creating disruption. Their object is to disrupt and sabotage Pakistan. I want you to be on your guard, I want you to be vigilant, and not to be taken in by attractive slogans and catchwords. *They say that the Pakistan government and the East Bengal government are out to destroy your language. [A] bigger falsehood was never uttered by a man. Quite frankly and openly, I must tell you that you have got amongst you a few Communists and other agents financed by foreign help, and if you are not careful, you will be disrupted. The idea that East Bengal should be brought back into the India Union is not given up, and it is their aim yet, and I am confident -- I am not afraid, but it is better to be vigilant -- that these people who still dream of getting back East Bengal into the Indian Union are living in a dreamland.*_



Problem is in our genes. A dalit nation can convert and share genes with the ruling class so much so that the ruling class that created this community no longer exist and are long forgotten. Yet the genes that made some of our dalit ancestors slaves of others before have not significantly changed, so they are easy to fool and are prone to fall into trap set by the same people. That is the basic problem. That problem can be solved but I do not want to mention such solutions here in the forum. Western wing were good enough to save themselves but not good enough to save us.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Moander

kalu_miah said:


> Problem is in our genes. A dalit nation can convert and share genes with the ruling class so much so that the ruling class that created this community no longer exist and are long forgotten. Yet the genes that made some of our dalit ancestors slaves of others before have not significantly changed, so they are easy to fool and are prone to fall into trap set by the same people. That is the basic problem. That problem can be solved but I do not want to mention such solutions here in the forum. Western wing were good enough to save themselves but not good enough to save us.



Yes the problem is in our genes, Bangladesh Defense of PDF is the perfect example.


----------



## the just

khair_ctg said:


> so-called "discrimination by west pakistanis" was an expected smokescreen to justify indian annexation of bangladesh/east pakistan landmass. 1947 to 1971 was 24 years only. this short duration itself just isn't enough time for systematic discrimination to take place. most shortcomings of east pakistani bengalis were caused by nearly two centuries of discrimination by british colonizers and domination by hindu zamindar class. this exploitation and the economic disasters during that period (including massive famines the scale of which even other places of the subcontinent probably hadn’t seen) rendered the bengal muslims extremely illiterate and economically deceased.
> 
> this was the reason that groups of people could be rallied on an issue based on their confusion between what a provincial and a Pakistan state language were, and the reason that let them to believe fairytales that “they” were there to snatch away our “mother language”. let alone acknowledging the official form of the “mother language” was developed by Hindu zamindars who set out to “purify” Bengal off Muslims and Muslim influence. and the effects still lived on when the 21st February began to be pushed as a grand day of the year for all of “Bangali jaati” – above and way beyond the actual relevance or purpose of the event when it happened.
> 
> amid all this, the United Pakistan administration adopted Bengali as the other state language (besides the trans-provincial and neutral language Urdu) in 1954 giving way to ignorance-fueled mob politics. @the just you would still cry “discrimination”
> 
> even during this short period 47-71, amid all this self-inflicting harms from the actions of EP Bengali politicians, major reversals of the course of history were happening. after 1947, Bengali Muslims could get the highest scholarships in school (know about "roll number discrimination" against Muslim students in Hindu majority school pre 1947), attain positions in the military at certain levels, become high skilled professionals –things that were relatively unthinkable under Hindu mahajans and bhadralok class. Bengali prime ministers and presidents would have offices in Karachi (as West Pakistani leaders could have offices in Dhaka). and so what that the Punjabis were still greater in numbers in the military. @the just would then cry “discrimination”
> 
> nothing was enough for some EP politicians. everything was supposed to lead to "discrimination" and the need for Indian military to invade us (aka to "save" us)
> 
> if there was anyone discriminating anyone, it was EP Bengali led by vile politicians discriminating themselves in favour of Indian interests
> 
> and boy was he right....
> 
> _About language I have already said, this is in order to create disruption among the Musalmans. Your Prime Minister has rightIy pointed this out in a recent statement, and I am glad that his government have decided to put down firmly any attempt to disturb the peace of this province by political saboteurs or their agents. *Whether Bengali should be the official language of this province is a matter for the elected representatives of the people of this province to decide*. I have no doubt that this question should be decided solely in accordance with the wishes of the inhabitants of this province at the appropriate time. Let me tell you in clearest language that there is no truth [in rumors] that your normal life is to be touched or disturbed, so far as your Bengali language is concerned. But ultimately it is for you, the people of this province, to decide what should be the language of your province........................
> 
> But let me make it clear to you that the state language of Pakistan is going to be Urdu and no [255] other language. Anyone who tries to mislead [you] is merely the enemy of Pakistan. Without one state language, no nation can remain tied up solidly together and function. Look at the history of other countries. There[fore] so far as the state language is concerned, Pakistan's language should be Urdu; but, as I have said, it will come in time._
> 
> and i'm sometimes shocked at the accuracy of these words.... (@kalu_miah)
> 
> _But I want to tell you that in our midst there are people financed by foreign enemies, who are intent on creating disruption. Their object is to disrupt and sabotage Pakistan. I want you to be on your guard, I want you to be vigilant, and not to be taken in by attractive slogans and catchwords. *They say that the Pakistan government and the East Bengal government are out to destroy your language. [A] bigger falsehood was never uttered by a man. Quite frankly and openly, I must tell you that you have got amongst you a few Communists and other agents financed by foreign help, and if you are not careful, you will be disrupted. The idea that East Bengal should be brought back into the India Union is not given up, and it is their aim yet, and I am confident -- I am not afraid, but it is better to be vigilant -- that these people who still dream of getting back East Bengal into the Indian Union are living in a dreamland.*_


 Am sorry for not believing all your talks.Because I can give you plenty of example of these incriminating evidence of discrimination regarding bangali people before 71. Here are few.
1 .My maternal uncle stood 2 and in his exam and became CA.Had a panjabi boss junior to him in rank and education.
2 .My maternal grandfather was a magistrate ,forced resign from service for not finding a Urdu speaking person not guilty in a murder case.
3. My own father in law. Ex sargodhian.Air force pilot.not been taken for training in USA despite having an outstanding record, because he was the single bangali in that group. He still has a letter from his superior saying sorry for not taking him because he is bangali.
There are hundreds of cases similar to these.Are you telling me they did this to bangali people because they loved us?


----------



## khair_ctg

the just said:


> Am sorry for not believing all your talks.Because I can give you plenty of example of these incriminating evidence of discrimination regarding bangali people before 71. Here are few.
> 1 .My maternal uncle stood 2 and in his exam and became CA.Had a panjabi boss junior to him in rank and education.
> 2 .My maternal grandfather was a magistrate ,forced resign from service for not finding a Urdu speaking person not guilty in a murder case.
> 3. My own father in law. Ex sargodhian.Air force pilot.not been taken for training in USA despite having an outstanding record, because he was the single bangali in that group. He still has a letter from his superior saying sorry for not taking him because he is bangali.
> There are hundreds of cases similar to these.Are you telling me they did this to bangali people because they loved us?


systematic discrimination is something else. although one can argue these individual cases may be a part of a larger picture as well. in any case it is hysterical expecting "love" from the same people to whom vile politicians showed so much ignorance and agitation right from the start.

you have to consider that east bengal as a region became quite handicapped from colonialism and Hindu zamindari. some of these differences - like ones you mentioned, although unacceptable - were bound to exist, not in a very different way from how generally a Dhaka or Chittagong city person will view someone who just came from the village. and on top of that, elements sympathetic to rejoining with Indian Union were super active right since 1947. and such differences were consciously over inflated, not just because there was a specific agenda involved, but the target people, rife with illiteracy and emotion, would fall for it.**

if these provincial-ist activities from those rogue Bengali elements left a bad taste with more patriotic Bengalis themselves, then how do you think those activities fared with Mohajirs and West Pakistanis, and what kind of a perception did that create about Bengali Muslims? maybe something similar could be said about any bad reputation of Punjabis as well. and this led some of the founding leaders of United Pakistan to call this a "Chinese Puzzle" or a viscous cycle. and they were right to recognize this provincialism very early on and the potential hazard it could bring to everyone of United Pakistan. and such tendency was particularly most dangerous for East Bengal. because of its backward state of affairs and its risky geographic position, the people of East Bengal were undoubtedly in a more shaky position to be exploited by the enemy

**just one example, despite allegations of discrimination in individual cases, Bengali Muslims in the military have had extensive service in foreign countries. its unfair to compare the extent of Bengali Muslim military representation compared to Punjabis; the colonial experience designed it like that. and the Air Force was no different which is why you would see somewhat of an over-representation of Bengali Muslims. PAF still recognizes many of their former aces from former East Pakistan

p.s. i just noticed your statement about that dismissal letter and the part saying "because you are Bengali" is just hard to believe because that is something very exceptional if it is true


----------



## the just

Its true alright. Brigadier General Azaam is writing an outo biography. This letter will be in that book from behalf of my father in law.


----------



## Basel

Loki said:


> If Bhutto gave Mujib the power, the latter wouldn't even have lasted for six months!



This is perception of many in Pakistan too, but creation of BD was an international conspiracy and someone who's father was in PAF have told me that they knew in early 60 that we will lose East Pakistan and they had no power to do anything, he told me that he was a boy then and he cried after knowing that, the same person told me that intelligence have told higher authorities that losing East Pakistan is unavoidable even if Govt. is given to Mujib, if Mujib was given the Govt he would have transferred all imported assets to East Pakistan before breaking away from union.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## kalu_miah

the just said:


> Its true alright. Brigadier General Azaam is writing an outo biography. This letter will be in that book from behalf of my father in law.



There was discrimination, but if we waited some time and there were more educated people from the Eastern wing, there was a chance of reversing this trend. People are tribal by nature and they always try to pull up their own kind. This happens everywhere, even in developed countries like the US. But they were not killing our people and wiping out groups that opposed them. That was the mistake they made, in my opinion, people like SAK and Mujib should have been eliminated early on, before they became too powerful. The govt. then were incompetent and could not catch national traitors who were committing treason for decades and then put them out of commission.

What happened in the civil war in 1971 is what happens in all wars, innocent people died from both sides.

Note that after 1971, how many people and groups were wiped out in political killings and famine and finally Indian intelligence is now supervising this killing operation as of today. Is it possible to compare the two periods, before 1971 and after 1971? And I am not saying any of this so we can someday unite with Pakistan again, that is just not possible. !971 separation is irreversible, but the point of this thread is to understand where we went wrong, after our older generations fought and achieved Pakistan with so much zeal in 1947. We should not have lost faith so quickly and some of us should not have conspired with then enemy states like Soviet Union and India, that is flat out treason punishable by death, no matter how you slice it and dice it.

What we see is that after 1971, few people got fabulously rich, but overall the country has become a total mess and there is no end in sight. If we did not have garments industry and the remittance, both of which we could have in bigger scale if we remained with Pakistan, our fate would be much worse.

As a result of our separation from Pakistan, we ended up today as a vassal state of India. May be someday China will save us, if we remain loyal to that nation. But that remains to be seen. For now we are screwed for the foreseeable future.

The complain about discrimination was an excellent and effective propaganda tool the then national traitors were using with foreign advisers directing their actions, as it matched with the experience of most Bengali service holders who had to compete with non-Bengali people for the same position, and often lost due to non-Bengali's using their already entrenched position at the top, specially in the Army and Army led rule. But what we forgot to watch out for is that were we not making us vulnerable to much bigger and mortal threats if we separated? I believe we got emotionally instigated and taken for a ride. In order to end our petty grievances of a small number of govt. and private service holders, our nation lost whatever little sovereignty we had before 1971, and as a result we are today less independent and sovereign than before 1971. If we stayed together at least we had hope to fight within the system and win someday and get our fair share. But after separation, as a much smaller weaker and more vulnerable state, we lost all hope of ever becoming fully independent again, unless powerful countries like China decide to have some compassion for a loyal allied people and save us from Indian slavery.

What this proves without a doubt is that we are an emotional nation and we can be easily misled by fools to do grievous damage to our own vital national interest. In 1971 we did not become "independent", it was a nice label that gave our ego some boost, but the reality is that in 1971, from a lesser partner of a fully independent state, we became a full on vassal state of India, or to use plain language, a slave nation of India.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Cold Blood

khair_ctg said:


> so-called "discrimination by west pakistanis" was an expected smokescreen to justify indian annexation of bangladesh/east pakistan landmass. 1947 to 1971 was 24 years only. this short duration itself just isn't enough time for systematic discrimination to take place. most shortcomings of east pakistani bengalis were caused by nearly two centuries of discrimination by british colonizers and domination by hindu zamindar class. this exploitation and the economic disasters during that period (including massive famines the scale of which even other places of the subcontinent probably hadn’t seen) rendered the bengal muslims extremely illiterate and economically deceased.
> 
> this was the reason that groups of people could be rallied on an issue based on their confusion between what a provincial and a Pakistan state language were, and the reason that let them to believe fairytales that “they” were there to snatch away our “mother language”. let alone acknowledging the official form of the “mother language” was developed by Hindu zamindars who set out to “purify” Bengal off Muslims and Muslim influence. and the effects still lived on when the 21st February began to be pushed as a grand day of the year for all of “Bangali jaati” – above and way beyond the actual relevance or purpose of the event when it happened.
> 
> amid all this, the United Pakistan administration adopted Bengali as the other state language (besides the trans-provincial and neutral language Urdu) in 1954 giving way to ignorance-fueled mob politics. @the just you would still cry “discrimination”
> 
> even during this short period 47-71, amid all this self-inflicting harms from the actions of EP Bengali politicians, major reversals of the course of history were happening. after 1947, Bengali Muslims could get the highest scholarships in school (know about "roll number discrimination" against Muslim students in Hindu majority school pre 1947), attain positions in the military at certain levels, become high skilled professionals –things that were relatively unthinkable under Hindu mahajans and bhadralok class. Bengali prime ministers and presidents would have offices in Karachi (as West Pakistani leaders could have offices in Dhaka). and so what that the Punjabis were still greater in numbers in the military. @the just would then cry “discrimination”
> 
> nothing was enough for some EP politicians. everything was supposed to lead to "discrimination" and the need for Indian military to invade us (aka to "save" us)
> 
> if there was anyone discriminating anyone, it was EP Bengali led by vile politicians discriminating themselves in favour of Indian interests
> 
> and boy was he right....
> 
> _About language I have already said, this is in order to create disruption among the Musalmans. Your Prime Minister has rightIy pointed this out in a recent statement, and I am glad that his government have decided to put down firmly any attempt to disturb the peace of this province by political saboteurs or their agents. *Whether Bengali should be the official language of this province is a matter for the elected representatives of the people of this province to decide*. I have no doubt that this question should be decided solely in accordance with the wishes of the inhabitants of this province at the appropriate time. Let me tell you in clearest language that there is no truth [in rumors] that your normal life is to be touched or disturbed, so far as your Bengali language is concerned. But ultimately it is for you, the people of this province, to decide what should be the language of your province........................
> 
> But let me make it clear to you that the state language of Pakistan is going to be Urdu and no [255] other language. Anyone who tries to mislead [you] is merely the enemy of Pakistan. Without one state language, no nation can remain tied up solidly together and function. Look at the history of other countries. There[fore] so far as the state language is concerned, Pakistan's language should be Urdu; but, as I have said, it will come in time._
> 
> and i'm sometimes shocked at the accuracy of these words.... (@kalu_miah)
> 
> _But I want to tell you that in our midst there are people financed by foreign enemies, who are intent on creating disruption. Their object is to disrupt and sabotage Pakistan. I want you to be on your guard, I want you to be vigilant, and not to be taken in by attractive slogans and catchwords. *They say that the Pakistan government and the East Bengal government are out to destroy your language. [A] bigger falsehood was never uttered by a man. Quite frankly and openly, I must tell you that you have got amongst you a few Communists and other agents financed by foreign help, and if you are not careful, you will be disrupted. The idea that East Bengal should be brought back into the India Union is not given up, and it is their aim yet, and I am confident -- I am not afraid, but it is better to be vigilant -- that these people who still dream of getting back East Bengal into the Indian Union are living in a dreamland.*_



I would disagree. It was actually the opposite, the illiterate masses were in favor of united Pakistan. If the operation searchlight was not executed people would have never supported separation. On the other hand, the discrimination came into light because of the Bengali economists who were highly educated scholars, how would the ordinary people know about those huge disparities? At best, only the urban middle class were concerned about the discrimination. Cultural discrimination was also an issue but not as big as the economic one. Bengali was granted the state language status but the decision was annulled when Ayub Khan assumed power, however we didn't see any language movement this time, baring a minor movement in 1962 to halt the induction of Arabic script to write Bengali. 

Moreover, there have been many attempts to cooperate by the Bengalis. Mohammad Ali Bogra, while being the Prime Minister of Pakistan for two years, presented "Bogra Formula" to have a political parity between the two wings, it was rejected by the military. The economists proposed several measurements to solve the disparity, they were all ignored.


----------



## asad71

1. To be fair, W Punjab was more developed than E Bengal or other provinces of Pakistan. For instance, in 1955 in LHR and RWP I have seen metered cabs and double-decker buses. In education, economy, govt jobs and other indicators W Punjab was ahead. All developments in Bengal had been Calcutta centric. In education, and therefore employment, Bengalee Muslims were far behind Hindus.Sher e Bangla had realized this and had just begun addressing these.In civil service and military officer cadre Bengalee Muslims were almost absent.

2. It must be said of Ayub that he sincerely worked to redress the disparity. E Bengal Regt was raised at his recommendation as the GOC. He personally picked up smart young Bengalee youth and had them apply for commission. One such was a Hindu,CR Dutta who was commissioned as the only Hindu officer in PA barring doctors.This Piffer eventually rose to be a Maj Gen in BA.The renowned economist who was moving spirit behind drafting the 6 Points, Prof Nurul Islam, and National Professor, physician, late Nurul Islam had both benefited from Ayub's policy to send bright Bengalee students abroad for higher studies. Beside Cantt Public Schools, Ayub set up the first Cadet College at Chittagong to act as feeder institutions for PMA and other academies. In a process begun by Ayub, by 1970 the representation of Bengalees in the military had been raised to 15% by 1970. It was practically zero in 1947. Jinnah had invited leading Muslim industrialists in Burma and India to move to Pakistan.They were entrepreneurs were encouraged to invest in the East as in the West.

3. The truth is that Bengalee leaders post-Suhrowardy were mean and greedy. There was no visionary left after Sher e Bangla,Bogra and Suhrowardy died. This statement is equally true of the West post-Ayub.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## extra terrestrial

Basel said:


> This is perception of many in Pakistan too, but creation of BD was an international conspiracy and someone who's father was in PAF have told me that they knew in early 60 that we will lose East Pakistan and they had no power to do anything, he told me that he was a boy then and he cried after knowing that, the same person told me that intelligence have told higher authorities that losing East Pakistan is unavoidable even if Govt. is given to Mujib, if Mujib was given the Govt he would have transferred all imported assets to East Pakistan before breaking away from union.



Cool story bro. 

The fact is both Mujib and Bhutto were power hungry politicians and both wanted to be the premier of "entire Pakistan". If Mujib was given the power, he would have done everything to sustain his chair in Islamabad even if it required to sell out East Pakistan.


----------



## Basel

extra terrestrial said:


> The fact is both Mujib and Bhutto were power hungry politicians and both wanted to be the premier of "entire Pakistan". If Mujib was given the power, he would have done everything to sustain his chair in Islamabad even if it required to sell out East Pakistan.



Its not cool story its bitter one, nearly same story I have heard from people who were in good positions in those times or had very close relatives in good positions.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## extra terrestrial

Basel said:


> Its not cool story its bitter one, nearly same story I have heard from people who were in good positions in those times or had very close relatives in good positions.



Whoever told you the story, he has simply misguided you. Pakistani Intelligence failure was huge both before and during the War which is also one of the reasons for Pakistan's defeat. First, before the 1970 general elections, ISI assured Yahya Khan that Awamy League had no support in East Pakistan which prompted him to hold the elections. Then during the war, as late as November the intelligence reports argued that Pakistan Armed forces were marching quite successfully and the civil war would come to an end within few days which was far from ground realities.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Basel

extra terrestrial said:


> Whoever told you the story, he has simply misguided you. Pakistani Intelligence failure was huge both before and during the War which is also one of the reasons for Pakistan's defeat. First, before the 1970 general elections, ISI assured Yahya Khan that Awamy League had no support in East Pakistan which prompted him to hold the elections. Then during the war, as late as November the intelligence reports argued that Pakistan Armed forces were marching quite successfully and the civil war would come to an end within few days which was far from ground realities.



People who told me were not stupid, one of them have met all your elders including Mujib.


----------



## kalu_miah

Basel said:


> This is perception of many in Pakistan too, but creation of BD was an international conspiracy and someone who's father was in PAF have told me that they knew in early 60 that we will lose East Pakistan and they had no power to do anything, he told me that he was a boy then and he cried after knowing that, the same person told me that intelligence have told higher authorities that losing East Pakistan is unavoidable even if Govt. is given to Mujib, if Mujib was given the Govt he would have transferred all imported assets to East Pakistan before breaking away from union.



Knowing what we know now, about Mujib's history of sedition since the time he moved from Kolkata to then East Pakistan and SAK's creation of Nucleus in 1962, the above seem to be correct. But @extra terrestrial has a point, if higher ups in the govt. knew about it, then they should have done much more to prevent a war in 1971. Looks like we had traitors on our side leading and in the West wing we had a bunch of incompetent people who screwed up and did not take the right steps to stop the traitors on their tracks.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Basel

kalu_miah said:


> Knowing what we know now, about Mujib's history of sedition since the time he moved from Kolkata to then East Pakistan and SAK's creation of Nucleus in 1962, the above seem to be correct. But @extra terrestrial has a point, if higher ups in the govt. knew about it, then they should have done much more to prevent a war in 1971. Looks like we had traitors on our side leading and in the West wing we had a bunch of incompetent people who screwed up and did not take the right steps to stop the traitors on their tracks.



To my understanding many knew from start of 60s that East Pakistan is going separate but why they kept quite that is I don't know. If I met him again I will ask, although he had told me & my friends many things in detail, but I don't remember all.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## kalu_miah

cross posted:
December 16, 1971 | From East Pakistan to Bangladesh. | Page 73

Yesterday night I was in a family gathering of Bangladeshi's living in the area. There were some senior gentlemen in this gathering, one 70+ gentleman was a Dhaka University student during 1971 war and another 80+ gentleman was a govt. official in then Pakistan govt. in 1971. So I thought it would be a good opportunity to sound out the issues we have been discussing in this thread and other relevant threads below and get their opinion, as they have lived through most of the turbulent period we are discussing and have first hand experience:
Agartala Conspiracy confession, what does it mean for our history
The man who broke Pakistan and created Bangladesh: Serazul Alam Khan

Now, several things about myself. I have never been involved in active politics in Bangladesh, nor have any of my immediate family members. So you could say I am from a non-political family. Also, except for a cousin who fought as a Mukti-Bahini in 1971, no other family members were involved in 1971 war. Like most Bangladeshi's who grew up after 1971, I was oblivious to these matters and became aware after I started digging these issues for the last 5-6 years.

The 80+ gentleman was not involved in 1971 war, but the 70+ gentleman did have some political experience as a university student and was actively involved in providing logistical help to Mukti-Bahini, but saw no combat experience. This gentleman had direct and personal experience with the main political players such as Mujib and his student followers and SAK that we have been discussing in these threads. This gentleman also has many close relatives that belong to Awami League.

The 70+ gentleman confirmed the following:
- that Mujib was a goon and follower of Suhrawardy, took part in Direct Action day and possibly killed Hindu's in that communal riot
- that Mujib had no Mamar Bari (Maternal Uncle ancestral village) and that he verified that he was born from Hindu origin as is alleged in this thread:
Sheikh Mujib's birth history
@Aeronaut @WebMaster @Jungibaaz @Manticore I would request to unlock above thread as I have received personal anecdotal confirmation that the thread OP is actually authentic
- Mujib and a section with Awami League were actively engaged in treason in collaboration with Indian govt. (Intelligence Bureaus and later RAW) to break Pakistan
- SAK led Nucleus created in 1962, also engaged in treason in secret and joined Mujib's group and accepted Mujib as their leader in 1969, positively in collaboration with Soviet intelligence
- the election in 1970 was a bogus sham election, this gentleman personally voted in 11 ballot paper for ballot box stuffing
- the claim of discrimination was overblown for political purposes, East Pakistan received a lot of investment in schools, universities, industrial ventures, infrastructure etc., so much so that if Pakistan did not break, Pakistan may have had a per capita GDP higher than Malaysia today, that is how positive the outlook was at that time in 1971 before the breakup
- Pakistan leaders during 24 years of rule, never resorted to killing, kidnapping and disappearance of opposition political activists, this state of total murderous chaos started in our landmass after 1971, thanks to India trained Awami League and Mujib Bahini thugs
- Ayub Khan threatened India to bomb Farakka Barage, if it was put into operation, but then after "independence" it was started with some ineffective people's resistance from a weak dependent country (read vassal state)
- now all body guards of Hasina are Hindu, also 70-80% District Commissioners and 70-80% Police SP's are Hindu, most College and University Principal and Vice Chancelors are Hindu - it seems we have pretty much gone back to the Hindu dominant era before 1947
- specially after the naked Indian interference in Bangladesh during last election, it is increasingly becoming clear to people of Bangladesh that in 1971 we did not become independent, rather we lost whatever independence and sovereignty we gained in 1947 under leadership of Jinnah

The 80+ gentleman, who I have interacted with before and who used to support the "liberation war of 1971" since he faced some discrimination as an official, also came to agreement with the above and agreed that we were fooled and misled by a group of deceptive charlatans and has become subservient to India. What we achieved in 1947, we lost that in 1971.

If any poster have any question about any of the above, please read every post and every link in the threads mentioned in this post first and then you are welcome to ask any question you may have. As always, I will not answer any question for any Indian poster or known India leaning Awami League supporting posters from Bangladesh, so please do not waste your time.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## M_Saint

extra terrestrial said:


> Whoever told you the story, he has simply misguided you. Pakistani Intelligence failure was huge both before and during the War which is also one of the reasons for Pakistan's defeat. First, before the 1970 general elections, ISI assured Yahya Khan that Awamy League had no support in East Pakistan which prompted him to hold the elections. Then during the war, as late as November the intelligence reports argued that Pakistan Armed forces were marching quite successfully and the civil war would come to an end within few days which was far from ground realities.


 
It seems like insatiable desire to promote falsehood by propagandist to hoodwink us eternally serves enemy of mankind's unending expansionist's agenda, unfortunately that too sometimes get disseminated by naive victim.

The truth of the matter was that election of 1970 held on Yahiya-Mujib's understanding (Termed as LFO), in which none of other party except AWAMY was allowed to campaign or vote freely. As per LFO, whatever party won, Yahiya had to be PREZ but after the result Mujib betrayed and went against the earlier deal thus power wasn't handed to him. After BD was created, truth was whitewashed and lying RAWAMY-Malaun's narrative got foot-hold later to be pounded for 40+ yrs to suppress truth.


----------



## AsianLion

kalu_miah said:


> First of all, some disclaimer. I am a loyal citizen of Bangladesh (as well as the US), but I believe we need to find facts about our own history. So these are part of my efforts to uncover some uncomfortable facts and ask some hard questions. Please do not take these efforts to mean that I am pro or anti independence of Bangladesh, I am neither and I accept it as a fait accompli, a done deal that cannot be reversed. Like the majority of Bangladeshi's living today, I had no role in that conflict in 1971. As far as I know my parents did not play any role either.
> 
> *Agartala Conspiracy confession, what does it mean for our history.*
> 
> Relevant PDF threads for reference:
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/current-events-social-issues/156104-isi-nabbed-traitors.html
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/curren...tala-memogate-another-conspiracy-reality.html
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-history-strategy/50095-truth-1971-sheikh-haseena-wajid.html
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/bangladesh-defence/124950-raw-says-mujib-not-their-agent.html
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/bangladesh-defence/19050-book-review-india-doctrine-1947-2007-a-14.html
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-history-strategy/1870-creation-bangladesh-14.html#post92614
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/bangla...971-war-pakistan-vs-india-untold-story-2.html
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/bangladesh-defence/31528-bangladesh-balochistan-3.html
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...eague-not-allowed-form-government-1971-a.html
> 
> I have been looking at life history of both Suhrawardy and Mujib to see where the seed of rebellion came from. The idea of United Bengal came from Suhrawardy:
> Huseyn Shaheed Suhrawardy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> After partition however Suhrawardy gave up on this idea since it was rejected by people. He had been a loyal son of the country and had great accomplishment as a leader:
> - solidified Pak-China and Pak-US ties
> - moved towards free-market capitalism away from communism although he had a soft corner for socialism
> - initiated plan for nuclear power generation as well as weapons in the future
> 
> But he had another side:
> 
> 
> 
> The above shows Suhrawardy's human side, he was no saint. But what piqued my interest about the above is this question: * is it possible that Mujib was one of these goondas?*
> 
> What I can see is that Suhrawardy was a person of integrity and foresight, and he was from a distinguished family. He tried the idea of United Bengal, as it was worth a try, but after partition, he dropped that idea, as anyone with a minimum knowledge of geopolitics would know that East Pakistan by itself would be a much more vulnerable entity with India on 3 sides. But *if young Mujib was one of his goondas (I don't know for sure) then this could have given him the dream that one day he might be able to make East Pakistan secede from West Pakistan and rule over it as a benevolent king/dictator/dear-leader/bongo-bandhu?*
> 
> Because what I see from Mujib's life history is that this person is the root of the seed of rebellion. This rebellion was made without considering the long term future of his people, who had taken this obsolete idea (United Independent Bengal) from Suhrawardy and turned it into his modified dream of truncated independent kingdom of East Bengal and proceeded to ally with an enemy state and people (Hindu's) to engineer a secession to make his dream come true:
> Sheikh Mujibur Rahman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Swadhin Bangal Biplobi Parishad - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> Again I see that demagogues and rabble rousers become leaders with little idea of geopolitics and lead nations and people to a direction with disastrous consequences for the people they lead, blind leading the blind. If Mujib was really knowledgeable about geopolitics, instead of working with Indian intelligence, he would work with ISI and Chinese intelligence to help Phizo and Laldenga to gain independence for North East states. Current Awami League rule is nothing but a continuation of this long tradition that started with Mujib:
> 
> - cooperation with India to control Bangladesh
> - serve Indian national interest while ruling Bangladesh
> 
> Coming to the Agartala Conspiracy case:
> Agartala Conspiracy Case - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Forum
> 
> 
> People of then East Pakistan thought this was a case to frame popular leader Mujib to taint his reputation. But that impression was a lie, as we can see that Indian intelligence influenced media have established this myth, while in reality the opposite was true, as was admitted by Shawkat Ali:
> Col. Shawkat Ali - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> Funny thing is these shameless idiots are now trying to establish a treason case as some kind of heroic act. My question is why admit it in 2010 (or is it 2011), why not in 1968, when it mattered? Or why not in 1972? Why the silence for 40 long years?
> 
> 35 'accused' honoured
> 
> 
> Textbook%20'incorrectly'%20describes%20Agartala%20Case:%20Shawkat]Textbook 'incorrectly' describes Agartala Case: Shawkat
> 
> 
> Note the attempt to establish a treason case as a "patriotic" case and include it in textbooks for 9th and 10th grade to brainwash new generation of Bangladeshi's.
> 
> What the above does not tell you is that 6 point "autonomy" movement was the deceptive facade that RAW/IB has designed together with these traitors so they could proceed with their plan for secession. They got caught red-handed by ISI only after some of them raided some armory against advice given by Indian intelligence (IB/RAW):
> RAW says Mujib was not their agent :: Weekly Blitz
> 
> Of course Mujib never "worked" and got paid from Indian intelligence. His vision was that he was king of East Bengal, who was getting India's help to liberate his land. *But note the lie in green by Sankaran Nair, as Shawkat Ali has already confessed about the truth of the Agartala case.*
> 
> Questions:
> 
> 1. Sure there was economic deprivation, but were the West Pakistani's killing us since 1950's?
> 2. Who gave the right to Mujib to make this decision on behalf of East Pakistan to secede?
> 2. Who started the killing, were it not the planned saboteurs of Indian trained Awami agents who started the killings of Biharis months before Operation Searchlight?
> 3. Who gave the right to Mujib to seek help and become the partner of our 800 year old enemy entity, Hindu's of South Asia?
> 4. Is it not possible that instead of seeking help from an enemy that hates us Muslims to the core, that we could confront and raise this issue with our "oppressor" the West Pakistani's who were fellow Muslims after all?
> 5. If some of our "leaders" did not conspire with our enemy and committed treason (partner with an enemy state to plan for secession) and if we tried to solve these issues honestly, frankly and in a straight forward way, do we think we would still be treated the way we were treated (operation searchlight)?
> 
> If we could peacefully resolve the differences between the two wings of Pakistan and achieve autonomy or amicable separation, then:
> 
> 1. hundreds of thousands of people (Hindu's, Bengali Muslims, non-Bengali Muslims) would not be killed and become victims of rape and other atrocities
> 2. we could still have a better relationship between the 2nd and 3rd largest Muslim countries of the world
> 3. India would not gloat of their victory against West Pakistan and gifting us our "independence"
> 4. both parts would not become weaker, as both could share the nuclear power
> 5. India would not dare to proceed with its water terrorism, border violence and Shanti Bahini insurgency against Bangladesh
> 6. last but not least North East today may have become partly independent if not completely
> 
> Now can we say that India found a "useful idiot" who had a bunch of other idiot followers to achieve India's goal to break Pakistan, the largest Muslim country in the world, and thus reduce strategic threats for Indian nation? In the process, hundreds of thousands of people got killed in the civil war and a great rift was created among two of the largest Muslim communities of the world.
> 
> Now can we say that Awami League should never be trusted again by people of Bangladesh and it should be banned and abolished, so the joint team of Awami League and Indian intelligence cannot hurt the national interest of Bangladesh any further?




Some really good points!


----------



## mb444

Agartala conspiracy was a logical conclusion and preparation for independence of sovereign BD. It has no real meaning unless we were prepared to live as second class citizens in our own country.

Mujib was a goonda but he had the right as a leader of our people to do what was right. He was no traitor, if we hold him to be so do we say Osmani was a traitor too.

Scene has been set. BD had a choice to live free or under punjabi heels. It is not in our nature to live as slaves whatever the cost. Let us not view this within the prism of Pakistan. Die was cast when when the west choose to manipulate the system in their favour. Political solution was no longer possible at that stage... west wanted domination not federalism... the rest is history.

BD within Pakistan today would have been a regressive nation. Good riddance although it is a shame that the Islamic union had to be sacrificed.

Good to discuss but we must frame our history on purely BD term. Mujib took the helm of the fate of the nation , I salute him for that. He stepped up and was the right man for the job. BD should not have had to fight for our rights in a nation that we created. We broke what we created as was our right because it did not work for us. Revisionism will not further BD interest in my opinion. We used India to further our aim, it was a temporary intersectionality of national interest that no longer holds. BD will forge its future as a sovereign state in its own term.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## bluesky

kalu_miah said:


> that Mujib had no Mamar Bari (Maternal Uncle ancestral village) and that he verified that he was born from Hindu origin as is alleged in this thread:
> Sheikh Mujib's birth history


Stupid @kalu_miah, it is ok if you do not personally like Sk. Mujib. But, better you do not make false propaganda on someone's birth. That Mujib had no Mamar Bari was because in those days the Sheikh family members used to marry among themselves within the family, with first, second or third cousins. 

So, Mujib's Mamar Bari was same as his Abbar Bari. Almost same thing happened with his own marriage. Begum Fazilutinnesa was a cousin (second or third) of his. Please deal with politics and not with personal vendetta in an open international discussion forum.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## mb444

bluesky said:


> Stupid @kalu_miah, it is ok if you do not personally like Sk. Mujib. But, better you do not make false propaganda on someone's birth. That Mujib had no Mamar Bari was because in those days the Sheikh family members used to marry among themselves within the family, with first, second or third cousins.
> 
> So, Mujib's Mamar Bari was same as his Abbar Bari. Almost same thing happened with his own marriage. Begum Fazilutinnesa was a cousin (second or third) of his. Please deal with politics and not with personal vendetta in an open international discussion forum.




Unnecessary to insult anyone. Just give your opinion dude, it’s ok to have difference of opinion. The moment you do that you cut off any meaningful discussion. 

There is no sacred cow and we can discuss mujib. He was human and had good and bad points. He should be lionised by BD but we can still discuss grounded in civility amongst ourselves.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## A.A. Khan

mb444 said:


> Agartala conspiracy was a logical conclusion and preparation for independence of sovereign BD. It has no real meaning unless we were prepared to live as second class citizens in our own country.
> 
> Mujib was a goonda but he had the right as a leader of our people to do what was right. He was no traitor, if we hold him to be so do we say Osmani was a traitor too.
> 
> Scene has been set. BD had a choice to live free or under punjabi heels. It is not in our nature to live as slaves whatever the cost. Let us not view this within the prism of Pakistan. Die was cast when when the west choose to manipulate the system in their favour. Political solution was no longer possible at that stage... west wanted domination not federalism... the rest is history.
> 
> BD within Pakistan today would have been a regressive nation. Good riddance although it is a shame that the Islamic union had to be sacrificed.
> 
> Good to discuss but we must frame our history on purely BD term. Mujib took the helm of the fate of the nation , I salute him for that. He stepped up and was the right man for the job. BD should not have had to fight for our rights in a nation that we created. We broke what we created as was our right because it did not work for us. Revisionism will not further BD interest in my opinion. We used India to further our aim, it was a temporary intersectionality of national interest that no longer holds. BD will forge its future as a sovereign state in its own term.





Musings of a Bangla, dhobi ka k*tta na ghar ka na ghaat ka


----------



## mb444

A.A. Khan said:


> Musings of a Bangla, dhobi ka k*tta na ghar ka na ghaat ka



Sure... but it could be also musing of someone who can buy and sell you with my pocket change.... unfortunately you will never know. Best of luck to you though.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## A.A. Khan

mb444 said:


> Sure... but it could be also musing of someone who can buy and sell you with my pocket change.... unfortunately you will never know. Best of luck to you though.





This bangla is really funny, teri aukaat kya hai we already know, Banglas always try to overhype there pathetic existence, best response is what Afghan players did, rofl. kangladesh


----------



## mb444

A.A. Khan said:


> This bangla is really funny, teri aukaat kya hai we already know, Banglas always try to overhype there pathetic existence, best response is what Afghan players did, rofl. kangladesh




Lol...


----------

