# The mass graves of Kashmir



## Indus Falcon

*The mass graves of Kashmir*

Cathy Scott-Clark
The Guardian, Monday 9 July 2012
For 22 years this contested region has endured a regime of torture and disappeared civilians. Now a local laywer is discovering their unmarked graves and challenging India's abuses

One sodden evening in April 2010, an Indian army major from the 4 Rajputana Rifles arrived at a remote police post where the mountains gather in a half-hitch around Kashmir, India's northernmost state. Major Opinder Singh "seemed in a hurry", a duty policeman recalled. Up in the heights of the Pir Panjal range, down through which the major had descended, it was snowing and his boots let in water. "The officer reported that the previous night his men had killed three Pakistani terrorists who had crossed over into our Machil sector," the policeman recalled. "Where are the bodies?" the policeman had asked, filling in a First Information Report that started a criminal enquiry. "They were buried where they were shot," the major retorted, before taking off in his jeep.

"It was not unusual," the policeman later told investigators, when questioned as to why he had not insisted on viewing the corpses or checking the identities. Kashmir had been in turmoil since Partition in 1947 and on a virtual war footing for the past two decades, with some estimates placing the dead at 70,000. Strung with razor wire and anti-missile netting, the state had been transformed into one of the most militarised places on earth, with one Indian paramilitary or soldier stationed for every 17 residents. The Pakistani intelligence services and military trained and funded a legion of irregulars, who infiltrated over the mountains to kick-start a full-blown insurgency in 1989, keeping the Indian-ruled portion of the Muslim-majority state permanently alight.

Once picture-perfect, a place of pilgrimage for backpackers and mystics of all religions, Kashmir had become one of the most beautiful and dangerous frontlines in the world. Machil, the sector in which Singh had sprung his operation, was especially treacherous, consisting of a clutch of isolated villages strung along the Line of Control (LoC), a high-altitude ceasefire line that had split Kashmir in 1972. Up here in the thin air, India had created a fearsome barrier, made lethal with the help of Israeli technology, a partially electrified series of fences connected to motion detectors, surrounded by a heavily mined no-man's land.

On 30 April, 2010, an armed forces spokesman in Srinagar, Kashmir's summer capital, confirmed Singh's story. "Three militants have been killed in a shootout," said Lieutenant Colonel JS Brar, detailing how three AK-47s, one Pakistani pistol, ammunition, cigarettes, chocolates, dates, two water bottles, a Kenwood radio and 1,000 Pakistani rupees had been recovered. The standard-issue infiltration kit. The corpseless triple-death inquiry was an open and shut case.

However, a few days later, at Panzalla police station, 30 miles from Machil, a simple missing case was causing everyone problems. Three Kashmiri families from nearby Nadihal village had turned up to report the disappearance of their sons: Mohammad, 19, Riyaz, 20, and Shahzad, 27, an apple farmer, a herder and a labourer. They had not seen them since 28 April and would not be calmed by detectives. Soon, their appeals drew the attention of Kashmir's most dogged human rights lawyer, Parvez Imroz, whose response to what would become known as the "Machil Encounter" was about to create a watershed in Kashmir.

Dressed in the uniform of the Kashmiri bar, a crisp white shirt and sombre morning suit, over the past two decades Imroz had become a fixture at the high court in Srinagar, filing thousands of habeas corpus actions (which literally translates as "produce the bodies") on behalf of families who claimed their relatives had vanished while in the custody of the Indian security forces.

These actions rarely succeeded, the Indian army insisting that the missing had flitted over the LoC to Pakistan, recalling historic scenes at the start of the insurgency that terrified New Delhi, when tens of thousands of young Kashmiris jumped aboard buses manned by youthful conductors shouting: "Pakistan, Pakistan here we come." But what the writs did achieve was to create a paper trail from which Imroz was able to estimate that 8,000 Kashmiri non-combatants had vanished from army custody in a state the size of Ireland – four times more than disappeared under Pinochet in Chile. "The military grip has been suffocating," he told the Guardian, "and making someone vanish sows far more fear than spilling their blood".

Imroz had spent much of his career facing down security forces protected by specially drafted laws. Under the Armed Forces Special Powers Act, soldiers and paramilitaries enjoy total immunity from prosecution, unless the ministry of defence sanction their trial. Using new Right to Information (RTI) laws, Imroz obtained confirmation that despite the fact that hundreds of soldiers stood accused of murder, rape and torture, not a single case had proceeded. In contrast, Kashmiri citizens are dealt with using the Jammu & Kashmir Public Safety Act, under which they can be jailed, preventively, for two years, if deemed likely to commit subversive acts in the future, with an estimated 20,000 detained, according to Human Rights Watch.

Imroz's campaigning achieved other things. He caught the attention of the UN, and this year Christof Heyns, a special rapporteur on extrajudicial executions, warned India that all of these draconian laws had no place in a functioning democracy and should be scrapped. The price for confronting the security forces and the militants they faced down was severe. In 1992, Imroz mourned the loss of his Hindu mentor, an activist who was gunned down by Muslim insurgents. Three years later, Imroz was driving home from court when he felt a cold draught grip his chest. "I slumped over the wheel, inexplicably," he recalled. Bystanders who came to his rescue told him he had been shot. A militant group later claimed it was a case of mistaken identity. In 1996, the Indian army abducted Imroz's friend and fellow lawyer, Jalil Andrabi, whose mutilated body was found after three weeks. Imroz shut himself off. For years he refused to marry or have children, worried they would be targeted. In 2002, his accomplished protégé, Khurram Parvez, a young Kashmiri graduate, was badly injured in an IED attack that killed his driver and a female colleague, Asiya Jeelani. Two years after that, a gunman posing as a client, shot dead another of Imroz's legal allies. In 2005, when Imroz was awarded the Ludovic-Trarieux International Human Rights Prize, first given to Nelson Mandela, he was unable to accept it in person as India declined to issue him a passport.

But Imroz's reputation began to build in the countryside, from where terrified villagers travelled to besiege his rickety chambers on the Bund, in central Srinagar, carrying with them stories. In 2008, these accounts enabled the lawyer to make his greatest discovery. While surveying disappearance cases in villages across two of Kashmir's 23 districts, including Baramulla, from where the three Nadihal men would vanish in 2010, villagers showed him a hitherto unknown network of unmarked and mass graves: muddy pits and mossy mounds, pock-marking pine forests and orchards. According to eyewitnesses, all had been dug under the gaze of the Indian security forces and all contained the bodies of local men. Some were fresh, others decayed, hinting at a covert slaughter that went back many years.

Imroz widened his search, mapping almost 1,000 locations. He was shocked by the implications. Indian law requires that the police probe every violent death and that corpses be identified. But in the village of Bimyar, white-haired Atta Muhammad Khan came forward to describe how he had been forced to inter 203 unidentified bodies under cover of the night – men whose identities and crimes were unstated. "Some corpses were disfigured. Others were burnt. We did not ask questions." It was a similar story in Kichama village, where the lawyer mapped 235 unmarked graves and in Bijhama, where 200 more unidentified corpses had been interred. In Srinagar, Imroz's team alerted the government's State Human Rights Commission (SHRC). "We suspected the missing of Kashmir were buried at these secret sites," he said, publishing a report, Facts Under Ground.

An official response came two months later, just after 10pm on 30 June, 2008. Imroz had at last married Rukhsana, a business woman, and they now had two children, his daughter Zeenish, 12, and a boy, Tauqir, aged seven. The family lived in Kralpora, a tree-lined suburb eight miles from Srinagar city centre. No one called round on the offchance. Rukhsana heard a rap at the door and glanced outside to see that their security lights had been smashed. "I knew what this meant," she said, the door knock immediately conjuring memories of murdered friends. Imroz ran to the back of the house and shouted for his brother, Sheikh Mushtaq Ahmad, who lived next door.

As Ahmad emerged with a torch, a shot was fired, narrowly missing his son. A stranger screamed: "Put that light out." Then, a grenade exploded, shrapnel pitting the front door. Tear gas shells followed, waking neighbours who unlocked the village mosque. The imam mobilised residents to surround Imroz's house, as an armoured vehicle and two jeeps from the paramilitary Central Reserve Police Force and police Special Task Force, took off. "They had come to kill us," Rukhsana recalled. "We need protection," she said. Who do you need protection from, I asked her. "From our own government of course. It's jungle law."

After the attack, Human Rights Watch called on India to "protect Parvez Imroz, an award-winning human rights lawyer" and his case was raised in the European parliament. His family pleaded for him to quit. "I was terrified," the lawyer conceded. "I was starting to have horrible dreams. But being silent is a crime."

Imroz and his team redoubled their efforts, spreading their net across 55 villages in three districts, Bandipora, Baramulla and Kupwara. An ad-hoc inquiry run by volunteers and funded by donations saw the number of unmarked and mass graves mapped rise to 2,700. Inside them were 2,943 bodies; 80% of them unidentified. "These were hellish images from a war that no one has ever reported," said Imroz. "We suspected this to be prima-facie evidence of war crimes," he added. "Who are the dead, how did they die, in whose hands and who interred them?"

The SHRC finally agreed to an inquiry. Soon, it had its work cut out. Using RTI laws, the police were forced to concede that they had lodged 2,683 cases for the covertly interred in just three districts. And a new deposition submitted by Imroz's field workers covering two more districts, Rajoori and Poonch, mapped 3,844 more unmarked and mass graves, taking the total number to more than 6,000. There are still another 16 districts yet to be surveyed, leaving Imroz to wonder how many violent deaths and surreptitious burials have been concealed across Kashmir. Finally, last September, the SHRC made an announcement, stating that Imroz's discovery was correct: "There is every possibility that unidentified dead bodies buried in various unmarked graves … may contain the victims of enforced disappearances." The UN weighed in this year, a report to the Human Rights Council warning India of its obligations under human rights treaties and laws. Kashmiri families had a "right to know the truth" and that "when the disappeared person is found to be dead, the right … to have the remains of their loved one returned to them, and to dispose of those remains according to their own tradition, religion or culture".

After the Nadihal men disappeared, Imroz's field worker, Parvaiz Matta, travelled to the village. He found an eyewitness, Fayaz Wani, a close friend of the missing men. Wani finally revealed the Indian army had offered the men jobs, in a deal brokered by a Special Police Officer (SPO), who had given them a sum equivalent to £7 each, "as a show of good will", before taking them to a remote army camp in Machil.

The families of the missing men filed a complaint against the SPO, Bashir Lone. "This man broke down, admitting his role, claiming that nine soldiers at a remote army camp had shot the three men, so they could claim reward money," Matta said. (The army routinely gives financial rewards to soldiers who kill militants.) On 28 May, 2010, three bodies were exhumed from unmarked graves close to the camp, some of those already mapped by Imroz, and in which the government said were foreign fighters. Their families identified Shahzad, Riyaz and Mohammad by their clothes.

The Nadihal cash-for-killing story and news of a legion of unidentified dead lying in unmarked graves, sent hundreds of thousands of demonstrators on to the streets in the summer of 2010. Sensing the building anger, the army and central government in New Delhi promised an inquiry, offering, without irony, talks to anyone in Kashmir "who renounced violence". However, when no answers came, Kashmir went into convulsions, as crowds of youths armed with stones ambushed soldiers, police and paramilitaries who returned fire with live rounds. I arrived in Kashmir shortly after. More than 100 demonstrators had been killed, many of them children. International news channels briefly took an interest, asking if Kashmir was experiencing its own Arab Spring. But the cameras left quickly, as a vicious crackdown began clearing the streets: the government's own statistics showing that more than 5,300 Kashmiri youths, many of them children, were arrested.

In 2011, Imroz went to work again, investigating how India had restored the peace, and I shadowed him. He took statements from those who had been released and the families of those still incarcerated. "The affidavits made for chilling reading," he said. The majority of youths alleged torture, with independent medical examinations confirming that many had their fingernails pulled and bones crushed. One teenage prisoner told the Guardian: "The police started on our hands and fingers, breaking them with gun butts, and by the end when tears were streaming down our faces, we were hung by our ankles and had chilli rubbed in our wounds." Others claimed to have petrol funnelled into their rectums. One group alleged in court that they were forced to sodomise each other, while a police cameraman filmed.

This year, Imroz and his field workers widened the research to commence the first state-wide inquiry into the use of torture. Their findings will go to the UN and to Human Rights Watch later this summer but a draft seen by the Guardian suggests that not only is torture endemic, it is systemic. In one cluster of 50 villages, more than 2,000 extreme cases of torture were documented, any of which would kick-start an SHRC inquiry, and all of which left victims maimed and psychologically scarred. Methods included branding, electric shocks, simulated drowning, striping flesh with razor blades and piping petrol into anuses.

This work suggests that the statewide ratio for Kashmiris who have experienced torture is one in six. "For the 50 villages, in this small snapshot, we located 50 centres run by the army and paramilitaries in which torture had been practised," Imroz said. The methods, language and even the architecture of the torture chambers are identical. "What we are looking at is not a few errant officers." Files released under RTI laws show how these practises go back to 1989. These documents, seen by the Guardian, also reveal horrific practises, including one sizeable cluster, confidentially probed by the government itself, where men from the Border Security Force (BSF) lopped off the limbs of suspects and fed prisoners with their own flesh.

The Guardian traced one of the victims, a shepherd Qalandar Khatana, 45. Hobbling on crutches, bandages covering his ankles, both feet having been sawn off, he recalled: "I was held down, a BSF trooper produced a knife and then I passed out as the blood gushed from me." His file says a government investigator confirmed the story and produced eyewitnesses.

Another villager, Nasir Sheikh, a carpenter, who lost both legs below the knee and one hand, added: "The smell was of death – urine, shit, sweat. You knew you were about to be slowly murdered. It was like being thrown down a well where no one can hear you scream." His file confirms the story and suggests that compensation be paid. The UN special rapporteur on torture has been refused entry to Kashmir since 1993. Domestic legislation to outlaw torture has stalled. "When will the world start asking as tough questions of India as it is of Syria?" Imroz asked. "Or are we Kashmiris invisible?"

The mass graves of Kashmir | World news | The Guardian

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## livingdead

i cant imagine the pain and suffereing that kashmiris went through. Indians should think beyond cheap nationalism and look at humanitarian angle to the conflict.

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## Thirdfront

Cry me a river, build a bridge and get over it.....

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## Indus Falcon

Thirdfront said:


> Cry me a river, build a bridge and get over it.....



Your indifference is disgusting and pathetic!

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## Jai_Hind

Kashmir is our problem, Pakistan is just adding fuel to the fire....!!


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## skullMAN

9 July 2012 post....accha he!!


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## Jaanbaz

Indians claim Kashmiris want to be with India but why do you need hundreds of thousands of troops in Kashmir? Is it to remind them of their ''patriotism''?

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## Indus Falcon

Jai_Hind said:


> Kashmir is our problem, Pakistan is just adding fuel to the fire....!!



Please read the OP, how is Pakistan involved in your fake encounters? 

Kindly do not blame us for your deficiencies. Thank You!


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## Jaanbaz

IndoUS said:


> Three bodies recovered from mass grave in Balochistan - Pakistan - DAWN.COM
> Same reason why you guys have disappearances in Balochistan and have mass graves filled with people fighting to free their land.



Troll bait failed. Don't get your saffron chaddi all wet my little friend.

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## IndoUS

Jaanbaz said:


> Troll bait failed. Don't get your saffron chaddi all wet my little friend.


How so, simply showing to you guys the mirror, you people should give freedom to the people of Balochistan and your army and ISI should stop the mass killing of Balochistani people fighting for their land.


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## 45'22'

bjp won 2 seats in kashmir 
luks like the kashmiris are not buying the propaganda anymore

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## utraash

You are ghost from one of those graves right.......


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## Thirdfront

Abu Nasar said:


> Your indifference is disgusting and pathetic!


It is neither disgusting nor pathetic. It is practical. Sunni muslim kashmiri people are paying for the sin they committed. Only sad thing is that lot of innocent people are also suffering due to their crime. It is they who started it and they have to stop it and no amount of whining can do that.

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## livingdead

Thirdfront said:


> It is neither disgusting nor pathetic. It is practical. Sunni muslim kashmiri people are paying for the sin they committed. Only sad thing is that lot of innocent people are also suffering due to their crime. It is they who started it and they have to stop it and no amount of whining can do that.


seriously? why should one pay for wrong doing of others just becase they belong to same group. Do I have to pay for sins of upper caste hindus then?

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## waz

IndoUS said:


> How so, simply showing to you guys the mirror, you people should give freedom to the people of Balochistan and your army and ISI should stop the mass killing of Balochistani people fighting for their land.



Mass killings proof please? There have been disappearances but not "mass killings".

The two regions as well are not even remotely comparable.



45'22' said:


> bjp won 2 seats in kashmir
> luks like the kashmiris are not buying the propaganda anymore



Not surprised when voter turnout was low 

On the thread it is old.


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## rockstar08

I think time has come to solve Kashmir issues , and finish this bitterness between both countries


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## IndoUS

waz said:


> Mass killings proof please? There have been disappearances but not "mass killings".
> 
> The two regions as well are not even remotely comparable.


Your own news channels are reporting it, and there are other Human Rights grps reporting the discovery of mass graves. There was even a march that the Balochistani people did against the disappearence of their loved ones that was reported which was shunned by the Pakistani members on this forum.


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## Thirdfront

hinduguy said:


> seriously? why should one pay for wrong doing of others just becase they belong to same group. Do I have to pay for sins of upper caste hindus then?


I and you are paying for their sins, haven't you heard of reservations? Apart from being collaborators of the crime, what have sunni muslims of kashmir done to correct the crime committed by them?


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## Jai_Hind

Abu Nasar said:


> Please read the OP, how is Pakistan involved in your fake encounters?
> 
> Kindly do not blame us for your deficiencies. Thank You!



Pakistan is pushing its non-state actors into India through Kashmir thus making our millitary stay there, making the life of Kashmiris hell... No more of your fake tears please, go mend your own ship instead of drilling hole into other's.....


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## 45'22'

waz said:


> Mass killings proof please? There have been disappearances but not "mass killings".
> 
> The two regions as well are not even remotely comparable.
> 
> 
> 
> Not surprised when voter turnout was low
> 
> On the thread it is old.


43 percent is not that bad.....

besides it doesnt matter

what matters is majority of them voted for bjp.......when they had other options........
so,they are not buying the propaganda anymore.......some of them atleast if not all


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## INDIC

waz said:


> Not surprised when *voter turnout was low*
> 
> On the thread it is old.



Total turnout was 49.98% in 6 seats of Jammu and Kashmir so turnout wasn't low, BJP won 3 seats and PDP won another 3, Congress-National Conference routed.


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## waz

IndoUS said:


> Your own news channels are reporting it, and there are other Human Rights grps reporting the discovery of mass graves. There was even a march that the Balochistani people did against the disappearence of their loved ones that was reported which was shunned by the Pakistani members on this forum.



You said we are "mass killing" do you know the seriousness of your statement? I do acknowledge the march and the agencies have to be held to account. At least I can admit it. It seems like India has done no wrong judging by the postings here. Also why have you bought Baluchistan into this? The thread is about Kashmir friend.

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## Umair Nawaz

Mr.S.Singh said:


> PAKISTAN: More than 100 dead bodies from three mass graves were found in one district of Balochistan — Asian Human Rights Commission
> sad really on both sides


asian human rights is not a source.

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## waz

45'22' said:


> 43 percent is not that bad.....
> 
> besides it doesnt matter
> 
> what matters is majority of them voted for bjp.......when they had other options........
> so,they are not buying the propaganda anymore.......some of them atleast if not all



Do they count Jammu in the voter count? Sorry to ask I don't know. Also I thought it was around 25%?

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## IndoUS

waz said:


> You said we are "mass killing" do you know the seriousness of your statement? I do acknowledge the march and the agencies have to be held to account. At least I can admit it. It seems like India has done no wrong judging by the postings here. Also why have you bought Baluchistan into this? The thread is about Kashmir friend.


To show you guys the mirror, and since any Indian who tries to open a thread on Balochistan it gets closed in two seconds by the mods. Which again show the extent of how people here like to preach to others, but forget the problems in their own house.


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## waz

INDIC said:


> Total turnout was 49.98% in 6 seats of Jammu and Kashmir so turnout wasn't low, BJP won 3 seats and PDP won another 3, Congress-National Conference routed.



Ah, Jammu, 49% and seats for the BJP, explains a great deal.


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## IndoUS

Umair Nawaz said:


> asian human rights is not a source.


There is also a report by amnesty international.


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## waz

IndoUS said:


> To show you guys the mirror, and since any Indian who tries to open a thread on Balochistan it gets closed in two seconds by the mods. Which again show the extent of how people here like to preach to others, but forget the problems in their own house.



The topic is not about the mirror and I have acknowledged the problems there. Baluchistan is not in dispute.

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## INDIC

waz said:


> Ah, Jammu, 49% and seats for the BJP, explains a great deal.



BJP won in Jammu, Udhampur, Ladakh, PDP took all 3 seats of Kashmir valley. There was voting of 28% in two seats in Srinagar and Anantnag, around 40% in Baramulla, around 70% in Jammu and Udhampur and 65% in Ladakh. BTW I heard there were many seats in Pakistan having voter turnout lower than 25% even 1-2% voter turnout in many NA seats in Balochistan.


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## SarthakGanguly

Thank God the PDP gained power this time. The NC was getting too irritating. Hope this trend continues in the Assembly elections. NC will now again start flirting with the Hurriyat. 

Good for them. Will hasten their demise. All their bravado (will leave India etc) have been rejected by us. Peace, stability and employment is the need of the hour. NC-Congress won't be giving that.

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## Robinhood Pandey

waz said:


> Do they count Jammu in the voter count? Sorry to ask I don't know. Also I thought it was around 25%?


Yup they count Jammu in. btw valley turnout can be even more but the separatist don't allow voters to cast their votes. they intimidate fear in the valley by killing village elders or those who wants to participate in the elections.

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## SarthakGanguly

chak de INDIA said:


> Yup they count Jammu in. btw valley turnout can be even more but the separatist don't allow voters to cast their votes. they intimidate fear in the valley by killing village elders or those who wants to participate in the elections.


I was surprised to see the number of votes polled in the valley this time. Never had so many people been killed to enforce a boycott. Including poll officials. Even then the men came out to vote. The absence of women voters is peculiar to Kashmir perhaps. That's another reason for the low turnout.

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## 45'22'

chak de INDIA said:


> Yup they count Jammu in. btw valley turnout can be even more but the separatist don't allow voters to cast their votes. they intimidate fear in the valley by killing village elders or those who wants to participate in the elections.


i thought bjp won 2 seats in kashmir 

btw.....in the anantnag seat,around 6k people chose NOTA option which is quite less than the no. of people who voted for some party


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## DESERT FIGHTER

INDIC said:


> BJP won in Jammu, Udhampur, Ladakh, PDP took all 3 seats of Kashmir valley. There was voting of 28% in two seats in Srinagar and Anantnag, around 40% in Baramulla, around 70% in Jammu and Udhampur and 65% in Ladakh. BTW I heard there were many seats in Pakistan having voter turnout lower than 25% even 1-2% voter turnout in many NA seats in Balochistan.



*Can elections win Kashmir for India?*

Elections to the six Lok Sabha seats of India-held Jammu and Kashmir were held on five different dates during the past month. The turnout figures are reported to be high by J&K standards. It was 35.2 per cent in 2004 and 39.7 per cent in the previous LS elections of 2009.

The voters in the disputed state have been using elections as an opportunity to express their rejection of Kashmir’s inclusion in the Indian union.

Various organisations have been successfully calling electors to boycott polls in an attempt to sustain its status of a disputed territory. Thus the turnout has become a one-sided “shadow plebiscite” as a higher turnout is projected by the Indian state as an evidence that the people of J&K had accepted they are part of India now.

Some analysts do believe that the present gradual rise in turnout, following a nosedive touching the bottom in the high militancy times of the late 1980s, is making the Indian position stronger than ever. They hurriedly link it with the recent efforts by Delhi to integrate Kashmiris as bearing fruit.

*The turnout in J&K is, however, deceptive and the integration programmes are far from successful. “A detailed look can reveal that the turnout was high only in the Buddhist and Hindu majority belts of Ladakh and Jammu, but not in the Muslim majority valley,” says Riyazwani, who works for Daily Greater Kashmir and Tehelka, in a phone interview with Dawn from Srinagar.*

In the elections to the 87-member held state assembly in 2008, the turnout was unexpectedly high even in the Valley.

The commission records put the figure at 61.2 per cent. “The National Conference’s (the current ruling party) strategy of delinking elections from the larger Kashmir problem and making it purely a ‘bijli, sarak, pani’ (electricity, roads and water) issue had worked,” says a Kashmiri journalist working in Delhi, Sameer Arshad, who believes that anti-incumbency factor was partly responsible for the low turnout this time. The state assembly will complete its six-year tenure later this year.

“There is no doubt that the people are tired of this government and have little choice otherwise, but boycott calls trump incumbency,” believes Riyazwani. He acknowledges that the popularity of militants who refuse to participate in elections cannot be taken for granted. “We don’t know about that as there is no objective way available to assess that and there is no doubt that they are divided in factions. *But we must distinguish between the separatists and the separatism. While the former may not enjoy*
*mass support, separatism is the prevalent mindset in Kashmir.”*
Indian government initiated many programs to integrate Kashmiris with the rest of India and defuse the separatism after the 2010 mass protests in Valley. *The wave was triggered by the a fake encounter that killed three ‘Pakistani intruders’ that were later found to be innocent local youth. The security forces killed over one hundred stone pelting Kashmiris protesting the killing and demanding demilitarisation of the Valley in the following weeks.*

Prime Minister’s scheme, Himayat and Uraan worth hundreds of crores of rupees offer scholarship to Kashmiri students, from under-graduates to post graduates, who agree to study outside of their state. “Pilferage and rampant corruption have taken the steam out of these. Uraan has not probably taken off its maiden flight even,” says Iftikhar Gilani, a Kashmiri journalist working in Delhi.

The National Conference that has ruled over J&K for much of the period since 1947 is allied with Congress at the Center and in the state. The Congress party’s 10-year rule that will end later this month will be remembered for the cases of massive corruption being reported every now and then.

Kashmiri students face many problems when they leave their state availing scholarships.

The top most is the ‘housing apartheid’ that anyway plagues all of India as house owners and housing societies refuse to let in people who eat different food with meat eating ‘non-veg’ being treated as pariahs.* Kashmiris who are stereotyped as ‘anti-India terrorists’ face greater discrimination. The recent case of Kashmiri students celebrating a Pakistan victory over India in cricket is quoted everywhere as an expose of these social fault lines.*

Even the non-Kashmiri Indian Muslims living do not associate and empathise with Kashmiris as it might mean additional trouble for them. “While the killing of around 1,000 Gujarati Muslims has jolted the community all over the country making communalism as the biggest issue in successive elections, there is hardly any Muslim outside Kashmir talking about tens of thousands of killings of Kashmiris,” says an observer who wished not to be named.

*A Kashmiri student of final year in a Delhi law institute however sees the schemes partly working. “Your fellows do come with the mindset formed mainly by media propaganda but I have seen many change their views after interacting with us and listening to the other side of the story,”* says the young man who preferred not to be named.

He was more concerned with the euphoria created around these schemes. *“They are project as a panacea to our economic woes. The options in the Valley are really limited and people have to take the bait whatever the cost,” says the student adding, “the worry however is the future. You have education or the skill but will you find a job. That can make all these just another case of betrayal.”*

Journalist Iftikhar Gilani sees the Kashmiri isolation in broader historical perspective and believes that Kashmiris have been cut off from their traditional social and economic linkages with Central Asia, China and then Pakistan by the political events over the last century and they have failed to develop any new relations because of the conflict. *“They are completely secluded. The Valley is a prison and the prisoners have a particular psyche,” says Gilani.*

In some districts during the present elections number of stationed troops is reported to be higher than the number of voters. Incidents of human rights violations have never seized since the insurgency began in late 1980s. There is a whole new generation that is born and brought up during this armed conflict.

*“There are around hundred thousand families who have directly experienced state violence including torture and killings. This has accumulated a huge amount of grief in society as a whole. It can’t act normally,” says an observer who has worked in Kashmir for years.

“You can’t give scholarship to one brother and pick up the other in the dead of night as a suspected terrorist and then expect elections to change the discourse.”*

_Published in Dawn, May 16th, 2014

Can elections win Kashmir for India? - Newspaper - DAWN.COM
_

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## Thirdfront

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> *Can elections win Kashmir for India?*
> 
> Elections to the six Lok Sabha seats of India-held Jammu and Kashmir were held on five different dates during the past month. The turnout figures are reported to be high by J&K standards. It was 35.2 per cent in 2004 and 39.7 per cent in the previous LS elections of 2009.
> 
> The voters in the disputed state have been using elections as an opportunity to express their rejection of Kashmir’s inclusion in the Indian union.
> 
> Various organisations have been successfully calling electors to boycott polls in an attempt to sustain its status of a disputed territory. Thus the turnout has become a one-sided “shadow plebiscite” as a higher turnout is projected by the Indian state as an evidence that the people of J&K had accepted they are part of India now.
> 
> Some analysts do believe that the present gradual rise in turnout, following a nosedive touching the bottom in the high militancy times of the late 1980s, is making the Indian position stronger than ever. They hurriedly link it with the recent efforts by Delhi to integrate Kashmiris as bearing fruit.
> 
> *The turnout in J&K is, however, deceptive and the integration programmes are far from successful. “A detailed look can reveal that the turnout was high only in the Buddhist and Hindu majority belts of Ladakh and Jammu, but not in the Muslim majority valley,” says Riyazwani, who works for Daily Greater Kashmir and Tehelka, in a phone interview with Dawn from Srinagar.*
> 
> In the elections to the 87-member held state assembly in 2008, the turnout was unexpectedly high even in the Valley.
> 
> The commission records put the figure at 61.2 per cent. “The National Conference’s (the current ruling party) strategy of delinking elections from the larger Kashmir problem and making it purely a ‘bijli, sarak, pani’ (electricity, roads and water) issue had worked,” says a Kashmiri journalist working in Delhi, Sameer Arshad, who believes that anti-incumbency factor was partly responsible for the low turnout this time. The state assembly will complete its six-year tenure later this year.
> 
> “There is no doubt that the people are tired of this government and have little choice otherwise, but boycott calls trump incumbency,” believes Riyazwani. He acknowledges that the popularity of militants who refuse to participate in elections cannot be taken for granted. “We don’t know about that as there is no objective way available to assess that and there is no doubt that they are divided in factions. *But we must distinguish between the separatists and the separatism. While the former may not enjoy*
> *mass support, separatism is the prevalent mindset in Kashmir.”*
> Indian government initiated many programs to integrate Kashmiris with the rest of India and defuse the separatism after the 2010 mass protests in Valley. *The wave was triggered by the a fake encounter that killed three ‘Pakistani intruders’ that were later found to be innocent local youth. The security forces killed over one hundred stone pelting Kashmiris protesting the killing and demanding demilitarisation of the Valley in the following weeks.*
> 
> Prime Minister’s scheme, Himayat and Uraan worth hundreds of crores of rupees offer scholarship to Kashmiri students, from under-graduates to post graduates, who agree to study outside of their state. “Pilferage and rampant corruption have taken the steam out of these. Uraan has not probably taken off its maiden flight even,” says Iftikhar Gilani, a Kashmiri journalist working in Delhi.
> 
> The National Conference that has ruled over J&K for much of the period since 1947 is allied with Congress at the Center and in the state. The Congress party’s 10-year rule that will end later this month will be remembered for the cases of massive corruption being reported every now and then.
> 
> Kashmiri students face many problems when they leave their state availing scholarships.
> 
> The top most is the ‘housing apartheid’ that anyway plagues all of India as house owners and housing societies refuse to let in people who eat different food with meat eating ‘non-veg’ being treated as pariahs.* Kashmiris who are stereotyped as ‘anti-India terrorists’ face greater discrimination. The recent case of Kashmiri students celebrating a Pakistan victory over India in cricket is quoted everywhere as an expose of these social fault lines.*
> 
> Even the non-Kashmiri Indian Muslims living do not associate and empathise with Kashmiris as it might mean additional trouble for them. “While the killing of around 1,000 Gujarati Muslims has jolted the community all over the country making communalism as the biggest issue in successive elections, there is hardly any Muslim outside Kashmir talking about tens of thousands of killings of Kashmiris,” says an observer who wished not to be named.
> 
> *A Kashmiri student of final year in a Delhi law institute however sees the schemes partly working. “Your fellows do come with the mindset formed mainly by media propaganda but I have seen many change their views after interacting with us and listening to the other side of the story,”* says the young man who preferred not to be named.
> 
> He was more concerned with the euphoria created around these schemes. *“They are project as a panacea to our economic woes. The options in the Valley are really limited and people have to take the bait whatever the cost,” says the student adding, “the worry however is the future. You have education or the skill but will you find a job. That can make all these just another case of betrayal.”*
> 
> Journalist Iftikhar Gilani sees the Kashmiri isolation in broader historical perspective and believes that Kashmiris have been cut off from their traditional social and economic linkages with Central Asia, China and then Pakistan by the political events over the last century and they have failed to develop any new relations because of the conflict. *“They are completely secluded. The Valley is a prison and the prisoners have a particular psyche,” says Gilani.*
> 
> In some districts during the present elections number of stationed troops is reported to be higher than the number of voters. Incidents of human rights violations have never seized since the insurgency began in late 1980s. There is a whole new generation that is born and brought up during this armed conflict.
> 
> *“There are around hundred thousand families who have directly experienced state violence including torture and killings. This has accumulated a huge amount of grief in society as a whole. It can’t act normally,” says an observer who has worked in Kashmir for years.
> 
> “You can’t give scholarship to one brother and pick up the other in the dead of night as a suspected terrorist and then expect elections to change the discourse.”*
> 
> _Published in Dawn, May 16th, 2014
> 
> Can elections win Kashmir for India? - Newspaper - DAWN.COM_


*"[Election] turnout was high only in the Buddhist and Hindu majority belts of Ladakh and Jammu, but not in the Muslim majority valley"*
This once again proves that what is going on in kashmir is more a religious extremism than a mass movement for independence.....


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## Robinhood Pandey

45'22' said:


> i thought bjp won 2 seats in kashmir
> 
> btw.....in the anantnag seat,around 6k people chose NOTA option which is quite less than the no. of people who voted for some party



BJP won three seats in J&K

Udhampur, Jammu and Leh-Kargil seats

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Thirdfront said:


> *"[Election] turnout was high only in the Buddhist and Hindu majority belts of Ladakh and Jammu, but not in the Muslim majority valley"*
> This once again proves that what is going on in kashmir is more a religious extremism than a mass movement for independence.....



Proves tht only the minority hindus etc support india.. Muslims are still struggling since 47 n have rejected india.

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## Pakistani shaheens

Mr.S.Singh said:


> Activists wants UN inquiry into Pakistan mass graves | Asia | DW.DE | 28.01.2014
> a germany website stating 169 bodies, pakistani authority blantly refused and stated the number at 15. Now u n i can both argue on is the committee right or pakistani authority



Pakistan is not the one who has deployed it's army in Kashmir. It's india who has about 700000 army in Kashmir. And if Pakistan has committed any killing in Azad Kashmir then, Kashmiris would have been protesting against Pakistan. But Kashmiris are protesting against india. Which shows who is killing whom.

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## Secret Service

IndoUS said:


> Three bodies recovered from mass grave in Balochistan - Pakistan - DAWN.COM
> Same reason why you guys have disappearances in Balochistan and have mass graves filled with people fighting to free their land.



Kashmir is a disputed territory since 1947 with a UN resolution passed on it while Baluchistan is a part of Pakistan since independence.the problem lies with western border where India has more than 17 consulates and it actively supports and provides funds to the separatist groups.

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## waz

INDIC said:


> BJP won in Jammu, Udhampur, Ladakh, PDP took all 3 seats of Kashmir valley. There was voting of 28% in two seats in Srinagar and Anantnag, around 40% in Baramulla, around 70% in Jammu and Udhampur and 65% in Ladakh. BTW I heard there were many seats in Pakistan having voter turnout lower than 25% even 1-2% voter turnout in many NA seats in Balochistan.



Not great at all for the areas that have the troubles. I thought Jammu would bring a greater result. Anyhow about Baluchistan some wards did have a low turnout. With the risk of having your throat cut voting, these are the same guys who attacked aid conveys when the earthquake happened, few would vote. But the same can be said for Kashmir, but then the Indian army has a more stronger hold over the valley so if people wanted to they could vote.

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## Umair Nawaz

Mr.S.Singh said:


> Activists wants UN inquiry into Pakistan mass graves | Asia | DW.DE | 28.01.2014
> a germany website stating 169 bodies, pakistani authority blantly refused and stated the number at 15. Now u n i can both argue on is the committee right or pakistani authority


A German website claiming So called Random activists!!!!!! Yeah so tomorrow if i will stand up and say i found lets say 500 bodies so they r gonna quote me too? Man u Sardar Gs really have some issues and i guess its already passed 12 am.

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## INDIC

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> *The turnout in J&K is, however, deceptive and the integration programmes are far from successful. “A detailed look can reveal that the turnout was high only in the Buddhist and Hindu majority belts of Ladakh and Jammu, but not in the Muslim majority valley,” says Riyazwani, who works for Daily Greater Kashmir and Tehelka, in a phone interview with Dawn from Srinagar.*



40% in Baramulla looks low turnout to you. Other two Srinagar and Anantnag had around 28% voting, stop deluding yourself. BTW if you call this low voter turnout, what's your views about this. 

As low as 1.18 % voting in Balochistan


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## ares

Jaanbaz said:


> Indians claim Kashmiris want to be with India but why do you need hundreds of thousands of troops in Kashmir? Is it to remind them of their ''patriotism''?



No the troops are there because of this reason



> ...Strung with razor wire and anti-missile netting, the state had been transformed into one of the most militarised places on earth, with one Indian paramilitary or soldier stationed for every 17 residents. *The Pakistani intelligence services and military trained and funded a legion of irregulars, who infiltrated over the mountains to kick-start a full-blown insurgency in 1989, keeping the Indian-ruled portion of the Muslim-majority state permanently alight...*
> 
> The mass graves of Kashmir | World news | The Guardian

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## waz

chak de INDIA said:


> Yup they count Jammu in. btw valley turnout can be even more but the separatist don't allow voters to cast their votes. they intimidate fear in the valley by killing village elders or those who wants to participate in the elections.



Was so in the past with some militants, but with the Indian army there it is harder to do so now, much harder. For the record I have never believed in anyone from being stopped from voting.


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## Thirdfront

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Proves tht only the minority hindus etc support india.. Muslims are still struggling since 47 n have rejected india.


Yes, minority Hindu, Sikh, Shiite, Buddhist etc support India. Unfortunately for Kashmir, majority (vocal majority, that is) of it's population is religious extremist.....


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## INDIC

waz said:


> Not great at all for the areas that have the troubles. I thought Jammu would bring a greater result. Anyhow about Baluchistan some wards did have a low turnout. With the risk of having your throat cut voting, these are the same guys who attacked aid conveys when the earthquake happened, few would vote. But the same can be said for Kashmir, but then the Indian army has a more stronger hold over the valley so if people wanted to they could vote.



The sarpanch had been killed by militants, there is fear that voters will be marked up, there were many instances also where people who voted beaten up by miscreants. Apart from this there was very high turnout in Rajouri-Poonch, jammu, Udhampur-Doda, Kargil-Ladakh.


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## Pakistani shaheens

Mr.S.Singh said:


> respect u mulla idiot ! u pathetic illiterate idiot Asian Human Rights Commission is an independent body holding no political organiztion recognized by the UN. _The Asian Human Rights Commission (AHRC) says that 169 bodies have so far been recovered from the graves. Pakistani officials, however, deny these claims, arguing that the total number of bodies amounts to only 15._ Activists wants UN inquiry into Pakistan mass graves | Asia | DW.DE | 28.01.2014 this is what the statement says. uneducated fool !


From 2010-2012, a prominent human rights group in Kashmir claimed to have discovered a series of mass graves in various parts of indian occupied Kashmir containing over 3500 bodies.

Mass Graves of Indian Occupied Kashmir - Kashmir

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## Robinhood Pandey

waz said:


> Was so in the past with some militants, but with the Indian army there it is harder to do so now, much harder. For the record I have never believed in anyone from being stopped from voting.


Congress Sarpanch, his son, village numberdar killed in Kashmir - The Times of India
How militants, govt killed the Panchayati Raj in Kashmir | Firstpost
Amid India-Pak tension, another sarpanch killed in Kashmir | Tehelka.com
Lok Sabha elections: Militants kill three including sarpanch before voting in Kashmir | Latest News & Updates at Daily News & Analysis
Militants kill sarpanch in Kashmir's Pulwama - Hindustan Times
Blast in Baramulla polling booth in Kashmir | Latest News & Updates at Daily News & Analysis

this is what they do during elections, bade bhai.

i hope this is not what we call a peaceful boycott 

And i have stayed in Valley for more than 5 years. have seen things with my own eyes.


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## INDIC

SarthakGanguly said:


> Thank God the PDP gained power this time. The NC was getting too irritating. Hope this trend continues in the Assembly elections. NC will now again start flirting with the Hurriyat.
> 
> Good for them. Will hasten their demise. All their bravado (will leave India etc) have been rejected by us. Peace, stability and employment is the need of the hour. NC-Congress won't be giving that.



Anti-incumbency against UPA(NC-Congress) also worked in entire Jammu and Kashmir similar to rest of India.

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## Umair Nawaz

Mr.S.Singh said:


> *respect u mulla idiot ! u pathetic illiterate* idiot Asian Human Rights Commission is an independent body holding no political organiztion recognized by the UN. _The Asian Human Rights Commission (AHRC) says that 169 bodies have so far been recovered from the graves. Pakistani officials, however, deny these claims, arguing that the total number of bodies amounts to only 15._ Activists wants UN inquiry into Pakistan mass graves | Asia | DW.DE | 28.01.2014 this is what the statement says. uneducated fool !


Sardar G's bayonet charge.

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## acid rain

@ Indian members, are we going to argue over a two year old crappy paid article?

The graves are of the militants who were killed - over 20,000 have been killed and most buried in unmarked graves, the missing kashmiris are the one's who went to pakistan to obtain degrees in terrorism.

1000 of them who had gone are returning back with their pakistani wives and families.

The pakistani militants are disowned by pakistan so they recieve unmarked graves...thats all.

Although there have been a few excesses by the army - but that is immediately investigated and always happens in warzones..

At least we dont bring fighter jets, drones, gunships, artillery and tanks against our people.

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## waz

INDIC said:


> The sarpanch had been killed by militants, there is fear that voters will be marked up, there were many instances also where people who voted beaten up by miscreants. Apart from this there was very high turnout in Rajouri-Poonch, jammu, Udhampur-Doda, Kargil-Ladakh.



That's expected as they want to vote for people who will run them. Not sure about the "high" stuff. But the threat from rebels is a little overstated and if people wanted to vote they would do.



chak de INDIA said:


> Congress Sarpanch, his son, village numberdar killed in Kashmir - The Times of India
> How militants, govt killed the Panchayati Raj in Kashmir | Firstpost
> Amid India-Pak tension, another sarpanch killed in Kashmir | Tehelka.com
> Lok Sabha elections: Militants kill three including sarpanch before voting in Kashmir | Latest News & Updates at Daily News & Analysis
> Militants kill sarpanch in Kashmir's Pulwama - Hindustan Times
> Blast in Baramulla polling booth in Kashmir | Latest News & Updates at Daily News & Analysis
> 
> this is what they do during elections, bade bhai.
> 
> i hope this is not what we call a peaceful boycott
> 
> And i have stayed in Valley for more than 5 years. have seen things with my own eyes.



You see bhai I don't believe in anything like that. But that doesn't detract from the fact that people did not vote as they didn't believe in it, as there are folks who voted because they wanted at least a say in their community.

Bhai I am Kashmiri. By the way how as your stay in the valley? What did you do there?

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## GreenFalcon

acid rain said:


> @ Indian members, are we going to argue over a two year old crappy paid article?
> 
> The graves are of the militants who were killed - over 20,000 have been killed and most buried in unmarked graves, the missing kashmiris are the one's who went to pakistan to obtain degrees in terrorism.
> 
> 1000 of them who had gone are returning back with their pakistani wives and families.
> 
> The pakistani militants are disowned by pakistan so they recieve unmarked graves...thats all.
> 
> Although there have been a few excesses by the army - but that is immediately investigated and always happens in warzones..
> 
> At least we dont bring fighter jets, drones, gunships, artillery and tanks against our people.


Who ever stands up for freedom in Kashmir is labeled a militant, so let it be

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## JammuWarrior

waz said:


> That's expected as they want to vote for people who will run them. Not sure about the "high" stuff. But the threat from rebels is very overstated and if people wanted to vote they would do.
> 
> 
> 
> You see bhai I don't believe in anything like that. But that doesn't detract from the fact that people did not vote as they didn't believe in it, as there are folks who voted because they wanted at least a say in their community.
> 
> Bhai I am Kashmiri. By the way how as your stay in the valley? What did you do there?


Bhai, you got to understand that Kashmir is our private property. We do as we please here. It's a historical precedent that must be followed.



SeanShah1003 said:


> Who ever stands up for freedom in Kashmir is labeled a militant, so let it be


It seems Kashmiris are getting brave, do they need another taste of Dogra rule?


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## waz

Umair Nawaz said:


> Sardar G's bayonet charge.



Brother please. If someone is speaking with respect which he was there is no need to insult folk. If you then he will retaliate which leads to a bigger confrontation with all of us involved.

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## GreenFalcon

JammuWarrior said:


> Bhai, you got to understand that Kashmir is our private property. We do as we please here. It's a historical precedent that must be followed.
> 
> 
> It seems Kashmiris are getting brave, do they need another taste of Dogra rule?


It seems that Indians are getting too arrogant, do they need another Mughal rule?

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## Robinhood Pandey

waz said:


> You see bhai I don't believe in anything like that. But that doesn't detract from the fact that people did not vote as they didn't believe in it, as there are folks who voted because they wanted at least a say in their community.
> Bhai I am Kashmiri. By the way how as your stay in the valley? What did you do there?



Believing or not is your choice bade bhai. but you can not negate the fact that these separatists kill people who do not follow their so called  peaceful boycott.

I was there during Kargil war


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## JammuWarrior

SeanShah1003 said:


> It seems that Indians are getting too arrogant, do they need another Mughal rule?


No, or Mughal rule will get the same treatment it got last time.


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## waz

JammuWarrior said:


> Bhai, you got to understand that Kashmir is our private property. We do as we please here. It's a historical precedent that must be followed.



It's disputed. The historical stuff disappeared the day India invaded various princely states with Hindu majorities. Fair play though you protected your interests. 



JammuWarrior said:


> It seems Kashmiris are getting brave, do they need another taste of Dogra rule?



My forefathers smashed the Dogra rulers and army quite easily. Casualties ran at round 90% at the company level. Hence the need for greater Indian fire power.

Azad Kashmir regiment hey!



chak de INDIA said:


> Believing or not is your choice bade bhai. but you can not negate the fact that these separatists kill people who do not follow their so called  peaceful boycott.
> 
> I was there during Kargil war



Yes some do and I acknowledge that and that is wrong bhai.

Lol you were there during Kargil? That's something to tell your kids. Interestingly what was everything on lock or did life go on. My relatives (through marriage) had to be moved and so on.

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## JammuWarrior

waz said:


> It's disputed. The historical stuff disappeared the day India invaded various princely states with Hindu majorities. Fair play though you protected your interests.
> 
> 
> 
> My forefathers smashed the Dogra rulers and army quite easily. Casualties ran at round 90% at the company level. Hence the need for greater Indian fire power.
> 
> Azad Kashmir regiment hey!


Well done to your forefathers, I respect that. Are you from Azad Kashmir?
But at the end of the day you needed the British to help you.


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## GreenFalcon

JammuWarrior said:


> No, or Mughal rule will get the same treatment it got last time.


What same treatment, Muslims ruled over India for 1000 years and it all ended to the british, where do u come into play? in the end it was because of a muslim country(Pakistan) that u finally got ur freedom

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## JammuWarrior

SeanShah1003 said:


> What same treatment, Muslims ruled over India for 1000 years and it all ended to the british, where do u come into play? in the end it was because of a muslim country(Pakistan) that u finally got ur freedom


Lol, that is very funny. By the time the British came, the Mughals were 1/8th there original size. Guess why? Marathas and Sikhs. And 1000 years? Great joke, madrasahs teach some funny stuff.


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## waz

JammuWarrior said:


> Well done to your forefathers, I respect that. Are you from Azad Kashmir?
> But at the end of the day you needed the British to help you.



Yes I am and no the British played little part apart from one several guys directing the Gilgit scouts which was quickly put down by the superiors. When you have 85,000 men who served in the British Indian army, battle hardened from the Second World War, you need little direction. You pretty much know what to do.

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## acetophenol

SeanShah1003 said:


> It seems that Indians are getting too arrogant, do they need another Mughal rule?


yes,2 pints please


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## Robinhood Pandey

waz said:


> Yes some do and I acknowledge that and that is wrong bhai.
> Lol you were there during Kargil? That's something to tell your kids. Interestingly what was everything on lock or did life go on. My relatives (through marriage) had to be moved and so on.



Everything was normal in cantonments except the night life.

we were asked to paint the window glasses black to avoid the lights from going out( Just in case of an air strike to hide locations )

then we were asked to dig bunkers in front of our houses. we used to have mock drills in the evening. and so on.

all in all it was fun and an exciting experience.



though after the war was over one of the colony was attacked by militants in jammu ( kalu chak area ) killing 33 ladies and kids 
bloody *** holes threw the kids from the 4th floor.


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## JammuWarrior

waz said:


> Yes I am and no the British played little part apart from one several guys directing the Gilgit scouts which was quickly put down by the superiors. When you have 85,000 men, battle hardened from the Second World War you need little direction. You pretty much know what to do.


That's not what I have been told, it doesn't make sense that you would have all your revolts crushed previously and then all of a sudden defeat us out of nowhere without any help.


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## GreenFalcon

JammuWarrior said:


> Lol, that is very funny. By the time the British came, the Mughals were 1/8th there original size. Guess why? Marathas and Sikhs. And 1000 years? Great joke, madrasahs teach some funny stuff.


Muslims through history made astonishing empires, how many Empires did Sikhs or Marathas rule over?



acetophenol said:


> yes,2 pints please


we're not talking about cow piss

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## JammuWarrior

SeanShah1003 said:


> Muslims through history made astonishing empires, how many Empires did Sikhs or Marathas rule over?


That's not the point, stop changing the subject.



chak de INDIA said:


> Everything was normal in cantonments except the night life.
> 
> we were asked to paint the window glasses black to avoid the lights from going out( Just in case of an air strike to hide locations )
> 
> then we were asked to dig bunkers in front of our houses. we used to have mock drills in the evening. and so on.
> 
> all in all it was fun and an exciting experience.
> 
> 
> 
> though after the war was over one of the colony was attacked by militants in jammu ( kalu chak area ) killing 33 ladies and kids
> bloody *** holes threw the kids from the 4th floor.


I remember that, at least the three attackers were killed as well. One of the victims was distant relative of mine.


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## nForce

SeanShah1003 said:


> Muslims through history made astonishing empires, how many Empires did Sikhs or Marathas rule over?
> 
> 
> we're not talking about cow piss



History is quite fascinating indeed..Whats your point exactly ?


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## waz

JammuWarrior said:


> That's not what I have been told, it doesn't make sense that you would have all your revolts crushed previously and then all of a sudden defeat us out of nowhere without any help.



You were told wrong and the British help is a myth, bar the Gilgit scouts. Most of the revolts were crushed with British help, which the Dogras requested, especially from those crazy Mirpuris which the Dogras described as crazed savages that should never be fought.

. *To suppress the movement, the Maharaja of Kashmir called in British troops who unleashed a wave of terror.* 

Kashmiriat and the illusion of Kashmiri independence | Hard News

When the British left it was pretty much even and then the war started.

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## GreenFalcon

JammuWarrior said:


> That's not the point, stop changing the subject.
> 
> 
> I remember that, at least the three attackers were killed as well. One of the victims was distant relative of mine.


what are u talking about? is this is what u learned in the basement of the Mandir in the lap of a Pandit? The Mughal Empire (Persian: *مغل بادشاہ*‎) was an empire that at its greatest territorial extent ruled most of the Indian subcontinentbetween 1526 and 1707.(WikiPedia) and british came in the 1600s,



nForce said:


> History is quite fascinating indeed..Whats your point exactly ?


My point is that Hindus/Sikhs are stuck to India unless they try to invade other countries

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## JammuWarrior

waz said:


> You were told wrong and the British help is a myth, bar the Gilgit scouts. Most of the revolts were crushed with British help, which the Dogras requested, especially from those crazy Mirpuris which the Dogras described as crazed savages that should never be fought.
> 
> . *To suppress the movement, the Maharaja of Kashmir called in British troops who unleashed a wave of terror.*
> 
> 
> 
> When the British left it was pretty much even and then the war started.


British made a minority of the forces.
It was hardly even, Pathan tribesmen spring to mind. We could have handled the Mirpuris, this is hardly a reputable source.



SeanShah1003 said:


> what are u talking about? is this is what u learned in the basement of the Mandir in the lap of a Pandit? The Mughal Empire was an empire that at its greatest territorial extent ruled most of the between 1526 and 1707.(WikiPedia) and british came in the 1600s,


Wikipedia lol, anyone can edit that. Look at maps from the time. By the time the British came, Marathas and Sikhs were ruling most of India and Pakistan. Your imam has been teaching you wrong stuff in your madrasah.


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## Dillinger

SarthakGanguly said:


> Thank God the PDP gained power this time. The NC was getting too irritating. Hope this trend continues in the Assembly elections. NC will now again start flirting with the Hurriyat.
> 
> Good for them. Will hasten their demise. All their bravado (will leave India etc) have been rejected by us. Peace, stability and employment is the need of the hour. NC-Congress won't be giving that.



You think that PDP can though? I've not seen much of a difference between the NC and PDP, they both flirt around with Hurriyat when they are out of power.

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## nForce

SeanShah1003 said:


> My point is that Hindus/Sikhs are stuck to India unless they try to invade other countries



hoary it is, as it seems..with the concept of nation-state sweeping across the World, I dont think, any particular religion has any significance in this aspect.Is it not ?


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## GreenFalcon

nForce said:


> hoary it is, as it seems..with the concept of nation-state sweeping across the World, I dont think, any particular religion has any significance in this aspect.Is it not ?


Agreed.


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## waz

JammuWarrior said:


> British made a minority of the forces.
> It was hardly even, Pathan tribesmen spring to mind. We could have handled the Mirpuris, this is hardly a reputable source.



No they didn't and you can't prove it. You didn't handle the Mirpuris they literally wiped you out.... The source? Now are know you are not serious. The guy is Hindu, from India and against joining Pakistan. I'm not sure how much more neutral you can get, and in this case he is pro Indian.

I also find it incredible you doubt British help for the Dogra army, they installed Gulab Singh as the ruler of Jammu and Kashmir with the use of force.


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## GreenFalcon

JammuWarrior said:


> British made a minority of the forces.
> It was hardly even, Pathan tribesmen spring to mind. We could have handled the Mirpuris, this is hardly a reputable source.
> 
> 
> Wikipedia lol, anyone can edit that. Look at maps from the time. By the time the British came, Marathas and Sikhs were ruling most of India and Pakistan. Your imam has been teaching you wrong stuff in your madrasah.

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## waz

SeanShah1003 said:


> View attachment 31037



He states the British never helped the Dogra army put down their revolts when Gulab Singh himself was put on his Kursi by them.....

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## Secret Service

after 1000 years of Muslims rule and 66 years of independence , for first time India emerges with power, money and Hindu supremacy ...so they are out of their minds now...guror sa sar neecha

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## GreenFalcon

secretservice said:


> after 1000 years of Muslims rule and 66 years of independence , for first time India emerges with power, money and Hindu supremacy ...so they are out of their minds now...guror sa sar neecha


 



waz said:


> He states the British never helped the Dogra army put down their revolts when Gulab Singh himself was put on his Kursi by them.....


Because he was sitting in the lap of a pandit in the basement of the mandir while learning history, thats y he wasn't paying attention

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## waz

SeanShah1003 said:


> Because he was sitting in the lap of a pandit in the basement of the mandir while learning history, thats y he wasn't paying attention



Nah bro, no need to go there. We shouldn't insult like that.

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## GreenFalcon

waz said:


> Nah bro, no need to go there. We shouldn't insult like that.


they keep mentioning Madrassas so I tolerated it since i joined... no more

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## JammuWarrior

waz said:


> No they didn't and you can't prove it. You didn't handle the Mirpuris they literally wiped you out.... The source? Now are know you are not serious. The guy is Hindu, from India and against joining Pakistan. I'm not sure how much more neutral you can get, and in this case he is pro Indian.
> 
> I also find it incredible you doubt British help for the Dogra army, they installed Gulab Singh as the ruler of Jammu and Kashmir with the use of force.


Il get back to you, let me deal with your disrespectful countrymen first.



SeanShah1003 said:


> View attachment 31037


LOL, @waz you seem like a neutral guy. Please explain to this idiot that by the time the British came, the Marathas and Sikhs ruled the majority of the subcontinent. His denial is most amusing.


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## Mr.S.Singh

secretservice said:


> after 1000 years of Muslims rule and 66 years of independence , for first time India emerges with power, money and Hindu supremacy ...so they are out of their minds now...guror sa sar neecha


1000 years ? learn counting its 260 years !there were empires spaning before mughals raj too !!

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## JammuWarrior

secretservice said:


> after 1000 years of Muslims rule and 66 years of independence , for first time India emerges with power, money and Hindu supremacy ...so they are out of their minds now...guror sa sar neecha


Why are you acting like you ruled. Mughals were Turkic, they looked down on your kind. At least we had the balls to resist them. You people just submitted. And also, Muslim rule was never for 1000 years. Please, stop reading the textbooks in your madrasah.



SeanShah1003 said:


> Because he was sitting in the lap of a pandit in the basement of the mandir while learning history, thats y he wasn't paying attention


Says the guy that thinks Mughals were a dominant force in Indian when the British came LOL. Madrasah knowledge,


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## GreenFalcon

JammuWarrior said:


> Il get back to you, let me deal with your disrespectful countrymen first.
> 
> 
> LOL, @waz you seem like a neutral guy. Please explain to this idiot that by the time the British came, the Marathas and Sikhs ruled the majority of the subcontinent. His denial is most amusing.


wow I feel the same for u, ironic 



Mr.S.Singh said:


> 1000 years ? learn counting its 260 years !there were empires spaning before mughals raj too !!


ok the mughal raj was that long but what about other Muslim rulers before that?

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## waz

JammuWarrior said:


> .
> LOL, @waz you seem like a neutral guy. Please explain to this idiot that by the time the British came, the Marathas and Sikhs ruled the majority of the subcontinent. His denial is most amusing.



It's true the Marathas and the Sikhs caused significant damage to the Mughal empire.

By the way are you from Dogra roots? Do you speak Dogri?


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## GreenFalcon

waz said:


> It's true the Marathas and the Sikhs caused significant damage to the Mughal empire.


but did they eradicate the Mughal empire?

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## JammuWarrior

waz said:


> It's true the Marathas and the Sikhs caused significant damage to the Mughal empire.
> 
> By the way are you from Dogra roots? Do you speak Dogri?


Yes, I am a Dogri speaker from Jammu.


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## waz

SeanShah1003 said:


> but did they eradicate the Mughal empire?



No. It was on its last legs. The last rulers were just keeping the seat warm.



JammuWarrior said:


> Yes, I am a Dogri speaker from Jammu.



Say something in Dogri please? Like how are you and so on. I want to see how similar it is to one of my mother tongues Phari.


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## Mr.S.Singh

waz said:


> I also find it incredible you doubt British help for the Dogra army, they installed Gulab Singh as the ruler of Jammu and Kashmir with the use of force.


Jit singh was raja of jammu, kishore singh and gulab singh fought along with raja of jammu to defend the empire from maharaja ranjit singh ! Jit singh was defeated, maharaja ranjit singh gave autonomy to Jammu and place Gulan singh as king! Get your facts right

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## JammuWarrior

waz said:


> No. It was on its last legs. The last rulers were just keeping the seat warm.
> 
> 
> 
> Say something in Dogri please? Like how are you and so on. I want to see how similar it is to one of my mother tongues Phari.


Sure mate, to say "How are you?" we say "Kiyaan oo ji?".
Also, to your previous point, it was the Sikhs who gave Dogras domain over the Kashmir region, not the British.


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## Secret Service

Mr.S.Singh said:


> 1000 years ? learn counting its 260 years !there were empires spaning before mughals raj too !!


i am not talking about mughal empire only...there were Muslim rulers before them . Start with Muhammad bin Qasim you will learn to count

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## GreenFalcon

waz said:


> No. It was on its last legs. The last rulers were just keeping the seat warm.
> 
> 
> 
> Say something in Dogri please? Like how are you and so on. I want to see how similar it is to one of my mother tongues Phari.


Most of this happened during Aurengzaib's time and by that time the East India company was already there on a mission to divide and conquer so the credit still goes to the British, am I right?


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## JammuWarrior

secretservice said:


> i am not talking about mughal empire only...there were Muslim rulers before them . Start with Muhammad bin Qasim you will learn to count


Muhammad Bin Quasim failed to conquer India and was defeated by Rajasthanis. He only conquered the region that made up Pakistan. He never ruled past Sindh.

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## Mr.S.Singh

SeanShah1003 said:


> wow I feel the same for u, ironic
> 
> 
> ok the mughal raj was that long but what about other Muslim rulers before that?


India was ruled as a whole by few empire
they where
maurya empire
pala empire
mughals

then come other who had significant proportional but never the entire country

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## Secret Service

JammuWarrior said:


> Why are you acting like you ruled. Mughals were Turkic, they looked down on your kind. At least we had the balls to resist them. You people just submitted. And also, Muslim rule was never for 1000 years. Please, stop reading the textbooks in your madrasah.
> 
> 
> Says the guy that thinks Mughals were a dominant force in Indian when the British came LOL. Madrasah knowledge,


i said Muslims ruled ... and Hindus shoved their balls somewhere behind which your textbook will never tell you...

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## JammuWarrior

secretservice said:


> i said Muslims ruled ... and Hindus shoved their balls somewhere behind which your textbook will never tell you...


Please give me an example and I will give you loads of Hindus resisting.


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## GreenFalcon

Mr.S.Singh said:


> India was ruled as a whole by few empire
> they where
> maurya empire
> pala empire
> mughals
> 
> then come other who had significant proportional but never the entire country


u forgot to add the British Raj to the list


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## Mr.S.Singh

secretservice said:


> i am not talking about mughal empire only...there were Muslim rulers before them . Start with Muhammad bin Qasim you will learn to count


he never entered past sindh, again sultans were present in northern india



SeanShah1003 said:


> u forgot to add the British Raj to the list


yes

And for all your facts ! Jammu was conquered by sikhs and given to gulaab singh !

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## waz

Mr.S.Singh said:


> Jit singh was raja of jammu, kishore singh and gulab singh fought along with raja of jammu to defend the empire from maharaja ranjit singh ! Jit singh was defeated, maharaja ranjit singh gave autonomy to Jammu and place Gulan singh as king! Get your facts right



Yes he was Raja of Jammu where did I deny that? As for Ranjit Singh he gave them autonomy and then died. After which Gulab Singh fought against the remnants of the Sikh empire. The British came, beat the Sikhs (military intelligence from Gulab helped a great deal) and then became their friend. 

*The British recognized Gulab Singh as a Maharaja directly tributary to them on payment of 75 Lakh of the war-indemnity.*

You might want to read up on the treaty of Amritsar.



JammuWarrior said:


> Sure mate, to say "How are you?" we say "Kiyaan oo ji?".
> Also, to your previous point, it was the Sikhs who gave Dogras domain over the Kashmir region, not the British.



We say Kyal hal he. 

How would say my name is?

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## Mr.S.Singh

Mr.S.Singh said:


> he never entered past sindh, again sultans were present in northern india
> 
> 
> yes





waz said:


> Yes he was Raja of Jammu where did I deny that? As for Ranjit Singh he gave them autonomy and then died. After which Gulab Singh fought against the remnants of the Sikh empire. The British came, beat the Sikhs (military intelligence from Gulab helped a great deal) and then became their friend.
> 
> *The British recognized Gulab Singh as a Maharaja directly tributary to them on payment of 75 Lakh of the war-indemnity.*
> 
> You might want to read up on the treaty of Amritsar.


Dogra u mentioned where actually rajputs that had migrated centuries ago to jammu, Gulab Singh was a dogra rajput himself.

It was Mian Dido Jamwal who was fighting sikhs, he was a clansman of gulab singh but gulab singh executed him for this.


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## JammuWarrior

waz said:


> Yes he was Raja of Jammu where did I deny that? As for Ranjit Singh he gave them autonomy and then died. After which Gulab Singh fought against the remnants of the Sikh empire. The British came, beat the Sikhs (military intelligence from Gulab helped a great deal) and then became their friend.
> 
> *The British recognized Gulab Singh as a Maharaja directly tributary to them on payment of 75 Lakh of the war-indemnity.*
> 
> You might want to read up on the treaty of Amritsar.
> 
> 
> 
> We say Kyal hal he.
> 
> How would say my name is?


I guess you are right in terms of our historical discussion.

What you said sounds very much like Hindi/Urdu, I thought Pahari was similar to Dogri. That's interesting.
To say "My name is....", we say "mera naa aae...". I'm not to good at typing in Dogra so I'm only typing it how it is normally pronounced.

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## waz

JammuWarrior said:


> I guess you are right in terms of our historical discussion.
> 
> What you said sounds very much like Hindi/Urdu, I thought Pahari was similar to Dogri. That's interesting.
> To say "My name is....", we say "mera naa aae...". I'm not to good at typing in Dogra so I'm only typing it how it is normally pronounced.



Ah you see it is similar to Dogri.

Here is what we say

Mera naa ai

That's more or less exact.

What about I do this for a living?

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## JammuWarrior

waz said:


> Ah you see it is similar to Dogri.
> 
> Here is what we say
> 
> Mera naa ai
> 
> That's more or less exact.
> 
> What about I do this for a living?


Sorry I couldn't get back to you sooner, it's nice to see similarities between our languages. It's quite hard for me to put my phonetic speech onto here in written form. There are some other Dogri speakers here, I will tell them to come here.

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## Shahmir

Mr.S.Singh said:


> he never entered past sindh, again sultans were present in northern india
> 
> 
> yes
> 
> And for all your facts ! Jammu was conquered by sikhs and given to gulaab singh !



Sindh of Mohammad Bin Qasam time was geographically not the same as Sindh of today, it included not only modern sindh but also entire pakistani punjab.

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## waz

JammuWarrior said:


> Sorry I couldn't get back to you sooner, it's nice to see similarities between our languages. It's quite hard for me to put my phonetic speech onto here in written form. There are some other Dogri speakers here, I will tell them to come here.



Thanks for that. It's very rare to meet Dogri speakers as they are such a tiny minority in India, as the Indians you come across are either Punjabi, Gujarati or South Indian folk. Phari's closest tongues are on the Pakistan side, with Dogri being the only language similar on the Indian side. It would be great to talk to others.

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## Soumitra

Shahmir kashmir said:


> Sindh of Mohammad Bin Qasam time was geographically not the same as Sindh of today, it included not only modern sindh but also entire pakistani punjab.


Still he ruled only present day Pakistan and not India. He was so insignificant that he is not even discussed in our history books. I came across his name only after joining PDF. And before you say Muslim rulers are not mentioned I would like yo remind you that Mughals are extensively discussed so are other rulers like Slave Dynasty (iltutmish, Razia Sultan etc) and Tipu Sultan among others are extensively described


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## INDIC

Shahmir kashmir said:


> Sindh of Mohammad Bin Qasam time was geographically not the same as Sindh of today, it included not only modern sindh but also *entire pakistani punjab*.



It included Sindh and South Punjab only.


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## Indus Falcon

Soumitra said:


> He was so insignificant that he is not even discussed in our history books



Well thank you for admitting your history books are fundamentally flawed.


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## Soumitra

Abu Nasar said:


> Well thank you for admitting your history books are fundamentally flawed.



I knew some Pakistani will say this that is why I have mentioned that other Muslim rulers are discussed in detail. Please read my full post.


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## Indus Falcon

Soumitra said:


> I knew some Pakistani will say this that is why I have mentioned that other Muslim rulers are discussed in detail. Please read my full post.



Please re -read my statement! IF your history books "FAIL" to mention a conqueror like Muhammad Bin Qasim, then your books are fundamentally flawed, and biased as well! 

Which the world knows, it's high time you accepted this fact!

As it is your education system is flawed, it's high time someone revamped it. Kids committing suicide is NOT normal!

Parents question whether school could have prevented sonâs suicide | The National


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## INDIC

SeanShah1003 said:


> What same treatment, Muslims ruled over India for 1000 years and it all ended to the british, where do u come into play? in the end it was because of a muslim country(Pakistan) that u finally got ur freedom



Yes, daalkhor Punjabis ruled India for 1000 years, you never ruled your own land before British gave you Pakistan, you talking about ruling India for 1000 years.

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## Soumitra

Abu Nasar said:


> Please re -read my statement! IF your history books "FAIL" to mention a conqueror like Muhammad Bin Qasim, then your books are fundamentally flawed, and biased as well!
> 
> Which the world knows, it's high time you accepted this fact!
> 
> As it is your education system is flawed, it's high time someone revamped it. Kids committing suicide is NOT normal!
> 
> Parents question whether school could have prevented sonâs suicide | The National



Mohd Bin Qasim is an insignificant ruler who ruled over what is present day Pakistan. Our history books cover mainly rulers who ruled in present day India or those who made a significant contribution to India. On both these counts Mohd Bin Qasim fails.

Do your history books cover Ashoka or Chandragupta Maurya both of whom ruled over present day Pakistan as well as present day India. And what about Rani laxmibai or TatyaTope who ruled over only parts in present day India.

To see how Mohd Bin Qasim is overhyped in Pakistan read

http://www.dawn.com/news/735610/figuring-qasim-how-pakistan-was-won

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## GreenFalcon

waz said:


> Yes he was Raja of Jammu where did I deny that? As for Ranjit Singh he gave them autonomy and then died. After which Gulab Singh fought against the remnants of the Sikh empire. The British came, beat the Sikhs (military intelligence from Gulab helped a great deal) and then became their friend.
> 
> *The British recognized Gulab Singh as a Maharaja directly tributary to them on payment of 75 Lakh of the war-indemnity.*
> 
> You might want to read up on the treaty of Amritsar.
> 
> 
> 
> We say Kyal hal he.
> 
> How would say my name is?


These people are in such denial


INDIC said:


> Yes, daalkhor Punjabis ruled India for 1000 years, you never ruled your own land before British gave you Pakistan, you talking about ruling India for 1000 years.


Read my history my lil child

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## Indus Falcon

Soumitra said:


> Mohd Bin Qasim is an insignificant ruler who ruled over what is present day Pakistan. Our history books cover mainly rulers who ruled in present day India or those who made a significant contribution to India. On both these counts Mohd Bin Qasim fails.
> 
> Do your history books cover Ashoka or Chandragupta Maurya both of whom ruled over present day Pakistan as well as present day India. And what about Rani laxmibai or TatyaTope who ruled over only parts in present day India.
> 
> To see how Mohd Bin Qasim is overhyped in Pakistan read
> 
> Figuring Qasim: How Pakistan was won - Pakistan - DAWN.COM


Ah denial can be so sweet!

This thread is about Kashmiri mass graves, and that is the only thing indians don't seem to be talking about!


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## SarthakGanguly

Dillinger said:


> You think that PDP can though? I've not seen much of a difference between the NC and PDP, they both flirt around with Hurriyat when they are out of power.


True. What choice have we got?


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## Zibago

Old but relevent thread 
@Moonlight @Areesh @The Sandman @django @PaklovesTurkiye @EAK

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## Indiran Chandiran

Zibago said:


> Old but relevent thread
> @Moonlight @Areesh @The Sandman @django @PaklovesTurkiye @EAK




Wonder how true it is ! Makes for chilling reading although those found guilty in the Machil case have been sentenced to life terms by the court.

OTOH , I won't be suprised if we're having the same discussion out here in 2020 with the same narrative , only different participants out here.


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## AsianLion

*Indian inquiry confirms unmarked graves in Kashmir*

By AIJAZ HUSSAIN, 4 hours ago 

*SRINAGAR, India (AP); Hundreds of unmarked graves in Kashmir hold more than 2,000 bullet-riddled bodies that may include innocent victims, despite police claims that they were militants fighting Indian rule in the disputed Himalayan territory, according to an Indian government report.*

The report ; following a three-year investigation launched amid allegations of rights abuses by the army, paramilitary and police ; is the first official acknowledgment that civilians killed in the two-decade conflict may have been buried in unmarked graves.

It stops short of confirming that suspicion, long alleged by rights groups, but says "there is every possibility that ... various unmarked graves at 38 places of north Kashmir may contain the dead bodies of locals."

Previously, officials have insisted that all the bodies were of militant fighters, as claimed by police when they were handed over to villages for burial.

The report says 2,156 unidentified bodies were found in single and mass graves in three northern mountainous regions, while 574 other bodies found in the graves have been identified as local residents.

*The findings by the Jammu-Kashmir State Human Rights Commission are likely to deepen cynicism in restive Kashmir, where anti-India sentiment runs deep and most people want independence or merger with neighboring Pakistan.*

India and Pakistan have fought two wars since 1947 for control of the territory, which is divided between them. India accuses Pakistan of arming and training rebel fighters, but Pakistan says it only offers moral and diplomatic support for their cause.

Rebel groups began fighting in 1989 against Indian rule, and more than 68,000 people have been killed in the uprising and subsequent Indian crackdowns. Most have been civilians.

*Rights groups have said some 8,000 people have disappeared, and accused government forces of staging gunbattles to cover up killings. The groups also say suspected rebels have been arrested and never heard from again.*

The state government has countered that most of the missing were likely Kashmiri youths who crossed into Pakistan for weapons training.In 2008, a rights group reported unmarked graves in 55 villages across the northern regions of Baramulla, Bandipore and Handwara, after which *researchers and other groups reported finding thousands of single and mass graves without markers.*

Indian officials set up the commission to investigate and also began a separate police investigation, the findings of which have yet to be released.The commission's 17-page report also urged DNA profiling to identify the bodies, saying the matter should be "investigated thoroughly by an impartial agency."

The head of a local rights group welcomed the report as vindicating its research into the graves.

_"Security agencies accused us of maligning the image of the armed forces," said Pervez Imroz of the International People's Tribunal on Human Rights and Justice. Now, "we will seek judicial intervention if the government fails to implement the report's recommendations."_


What a tragedy of innocent people in Kashmir!?


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