# PAK-FA : photos and videos



## marcos98

enjoy guys...

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## chachachoudhary

I am waiting to see this baby in its final stealth coat.


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## WAQAS119

sexy ,,,,,

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## sirius4u

What a baby...? 

Just like my old dreams....

Made my day...


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## Merilion

beautiful bird

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## mrwarrior006

its all about russian design-sexy cant say more than tat


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## Prometheus

who let the beast out

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## truefriend

nice.....


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## !!craft!!

this is the single seater version ...guess the indian twin seater will be little diffrent!!!


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## ARCHON

Thank god , the Russians completed the design in the drawing board before we joined in. These Russians knows how to make a plane look sexy.


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## Kinetic

The most advanced and cool looking fighter ever seen....... some more from Russian sites through keypub....

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## !!craft!!

tv nozzels looks weired for 5th gen ...but i gess they are gonna put a new engine...


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## Kinetic

!!craft!! said:


> tv nozzels looks weired for 5th gen ...but i gess they are gonna put a new engine...



This is not the final engine. Its currently using 117S. A new generation engine under development.


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## U-571

looks like they got inspiration from f-22, mixed russian with american designs to make half teetar half bater

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## shaktiman2010

birdofprey said:


> Thank god , the Russians completed the design in the drawing board before we joined in. These Russians knows how to make a plane look sexy.



Indians can do better.

But Indian people will start crying if India ever invested $15Billion in domestic heavy aircraft project in a serious way.

They are already crying - LCA is waste, Kaveri is waste. Blah blah.


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## truefriend

shaktiman2010 said:


> Indians can do better.
> 
> But Indian people will start crying if India ever invested $15Billion in domestic heavy aircraft project in a serious way.
> 
> They are already crying - LCA is waste, Kaveri is waste. Blah blah.



dude we have limited no. of resources plz think what u posting
we can not afford these failures .because even these failures need lot momey
but in my view LCA & kaveri r not failures .


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## Bombay

Photoshopped pics without wheels..


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## lhuang

It needs that black/grey paint that Raptor has.


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## Luftwaffe

Yes inspiration came from the one and only F-22...


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## ptldM3

!!craft!! said:


> tv nozzels looks weired for 5th gen ...but i gess they are gonna put a new engine...



Work on 2 dimentional nozzles is underway, although i'm not sure if it will be included in the final design.




> according to Evgeniy Marchukov, work in the area of exhaust system is underway. Development of the two-dimensional nozzle and reverse thrust ((REVERS)) is at the stage of publishing the engineering documentation.



Roy's Russian Aircraft Resource

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## lhuang

^ Wasn't the PAK FA meant to have 3D TVC?


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## TechLahore

Kinetic said:


>



So much like the SU27 family!


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## ptldM3

lhuang said:


> ^ Wasn't the PAK FA meant to have 3D TVC?



Nothing is known for sure, the nozzles may end up resembling the ones used on the F-22, even if Sukhoi does us Raptor style nozzles ( two dimentional) it doesn't mean it will be limited to 2D TVC.


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## syntax_error

ptldM3 said:


> Nothing is known for sure, the nozzles may end up resembling the ones used on the F-22, even if Sukhoi does us Raptor style nozzles it( two dimentional) doesn't mean it will be limited to 2D TVC.



Yes .. i agree on that if you look at the rear wing cuts there is ample space for manuvering of nozzle not only on the Y-axis but also on the X-Axis


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## ptldM3

TechLahore said:


> So much like the SU27 family!



The only similarities the PAK-FA has with the SU-27 is its widley spaced engines and maybe the bottom fusalage but even then its not exactly the same.


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## !!craft!!

i aint a expert but dont you guys think that the engine placement should have been little laterally on the fuselage...so that to get more space for the internal weapons bay???


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## desimorty

> So much like the SU27 family!


couldn't agree more.


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## shaktiman2010

truefriend said:


> dude *we have limited no. of resources* plz think what u posting
> *we can not afford these failures* .because even these failures need lot momey
> but in my view *LCA & kaveri r not failures* .



First point is not true. India has LOT of money but most is wasted on imports.

Your second and third point contradict each other.

Now, next you will say Arjun MBT is a failure.

DRDO is not suffering from lack of talent. But problem is lack of huge funding to take up core projects in serious manner.

One of DRDO senior has said in public - "We are not making TR modules on large scale because of lack of money. Ministry prefers to import than investing on domestic manufacture".

Those AESA radars are fully within Indian capabilities. If Indians can make Intel Chip, then why not TR modules?

Duh! Problem is not talent. Problem is focus of corrupt babus and money.

Even the funding for Agni-V came very late. Agni-III was ready 2 years back.

DRDO's budget is only 20&#37; of money India spends on imports per year.

And, second problem is, DRDO is under MoD(ministry of defense). It should be under PMO(Prime minister office) just like ISRO is.


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## Kinetic

TechLahore said:


> So much like the SU27 family!



SU-35 and PAK FA side by side..... there is minimum similarity between the two as we can see except as ptldM3 mentioned the radar between the engine nozzles and separated engines...

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## wali87

shaktiman2010 said:


> Indians can do better.
> 
> But Indian people will start crying if India ever invested $15Billion in domestic heavy aircraft project in a serious way.
> 
> They are already crying - LCA is waste, Kaveri is waste. Blah blah.



India can do better? thats pretty evident from Tejas lol. Dont wana go there though anyway.

Seems like a very stealthy plane, even compared to the f-22, note that the rudders are smaller. however, the landing gears and the TV nozzles look kinda crude. The physical characteristics seems to be based quite alot on the F-22 overall.

Nevertheless an excellent achievement. That oughta decrease the United States global air superiority with the f-22 to some extent. Congrats to all Russians fellas!

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## nwmalik

any idea about weapon load capability?


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## shaktiman2010

By the way, Akash SAM saved IAF $2 Billion in these 2 years.

Do you know that?

Check the facts before blabbering about failures. 

LCA is delayed because its funding was scrapped during a moron(Deve Gauda)'s rule and also IAF had ego issues with DRDO. IAF created big ruckus in LCA programme.


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## shaktiman2010

wali87 said:


> India can do better? thats pretty evident from Tejas lol. Dont wana go there though anyway.



Yes, India can do better.

FCS(flight control software) in Tejas was made by DRDO. It was tested on F-16 and pilots found that F-16 flew better and more reliably using Tejas's FCS than its original(made by americans).

This was during 1990s before nuclear tests. 15 years have passed since then.

Wanna pit LCA(IOC version) Vs. F-16(FOC version)? You will know who is better.


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## wali87

shaktiman2010 said:


> By the way, Akash SAM saved IAF $2 Billion in these 2 years.
> 
> Do you know that?
> 
> Check the facts before blabbering about failures.
> 
> LCA is delayed because its funding was scrapped during a moron(Deve Gauda)'s rule and also IAF had ego issues with DRDO.



No need to get touchy young lad,
I am only suggesting that India does not possess the technical expertise which the Russians do so they COULDN'T HAVE DONE A BETTER JOB. Russia went so far to develop a space shuttle 'Buran' how can u compare ur self to them

Nevertheless Tejas 'was' a failure as its an old story now. and don't even make me start about the missiles failures I hear on a regular basis about from the Indian media itself. I do not want this debate to go off topic

Im simply replying to a member who was implying India could have done better with this plane. Over which, I'm sure, you are also having a laugh.


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## wali87

shaktiman2010 said:


> Yes, India can do better.
> 
> FCS(flight control software) in Tejas was made by DRDO. It was tested on F-16 and pilots found that F-16 flew better and more reliably using Tejas's FCS than its original(made by americans).
> 
> This was during 1990s before nuclear tests. 15 years have passed since then.
> 
> Wanna pit LCA(IOC version) Vs. F-16(FOC version)? You will know who is better.




I would have loved to see Tejas being crushed by an f-16, If only the Tejas ever made it to the IAF lol. F-16s beat F-15s in dog fights my friend( search videos on the internet). so in that case u are trying to imply its even better than an F-15. Oh wait, its ever better than an F-22! whatever makes u sleep better at night. 

I repeat, do not go off topic.


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## Kinetic

wali87 said:


> No need to get touchy young lad,
> I am only suggesting that India does not possess the technical expertise which the Russians do so they COULDN'T HAVE DONE A BETTER JOB. Russia went so far to develop a space shuttle 'Buran' how can u compare ur self to them.



There are many things that indian can make better than Russia. thats why a lot of Indian systems onboard SU-30MKI and much of FGFA will be done by India. If Russia was doing better than why we need to put Indian systems on Russian planes? 

We have our own shuttle programme, the TD will fly this year...









> Nevertheless Tejas 'was' a failure as its an old story now. and don't even make me start about the missiles failures I hear on a regular basis about from the Indian media itself. I do not want this debate to go off topic
> 
> Im simply replying to a member who was implying India could have done better with this plane. Over which, I'm sure, you are also having a laugh.


*
Tejas is a grand success for India. Because we developed a 4th++ fighter on our own. Most technologies needed to be developed from scratch because there was no previous knowledge and R&D facalities for developing a modern fighter. IAF already ordered 40 Teajs. *

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## Forrest Griffin

birdofprey said:


> Thank god , the Russians completed the design in the drawing board *before we joined in*.




LOL you guys are so funny


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## ptldM3

shaktiman2010 said:


> Indians can do better.
> 
> But Indian people will start crying if India ever invested $15Billion in domestic heavy aircraft project in a serious way.
> 
> They are already crying - LCA is waste, Kaveri is waste. Blah blah.




Russia has 80+ years in aviation. Russia has the infastructure, resources, and engineers to built this aircraft and even then it's no walk in the park. Can India build a fifth generation engine? AESA radar which even the Europeans are struggling with? Targetting system? IRST? TVC? RAM? ect...ect. Building an aircraft esspcially a fully indigenous one is a hudge undertaking, building a stealth aircraft is a whole nother story.




Kinetic said:


> There are many things that indian can make better than Russia. thats why a lot of Indian systems onboard SU-30MKI and much of FGFA will be done by India. If Russia was doing better than why we need to put Indian systems on Russian planes?



I'm sure India can do some things better/make improvment but most people forget or don't know that the MKI still largely consists of Russian avionics. If India were to perchace the F-35 they would probably customize it too, this doesn't exactly translate into being able to built a better aircraft. The moral of the story is, bulding a stealth aircraft, even for Russia, is difficult and complicated.

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## thebrownguy

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Dude the point being made was, India is also capable in contributing positively in the development program of FGFA in a select few areas. No one is claiming that India has the ability to go indigenous on a fifth generation project.
And there is no doubt about the Russian ability in the aviation industry. I honestly feel, all the hype abt western tech being superior is non sense anyways.


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## ptldM3

thebrownguy said:


> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> Dude the point being made was, *India is also capable in contributing positively in the development program of FGFA *in a select few areas. No one is claiming that India has the ability to go indigenous on a fifth generation project.
> And there is no doubt about the Russian ability in the aviation industry. I honestly feel, all the hype abt western tech being superior is non sense anyways.



Absolutely, India has alot to offer and with India's partnership i feel the PAK-FA is going to an impressive machine.

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## AnGrz_Z_K_Jailer

Prometheus said:


> who let the beast out



^^^

Russian and Indians .....


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## syntax_error

shaktiman2010 said:


> Yes, India can do better.
> 
> FCS(flight control software) in Tejas was made by DRDO. It was tested on F-16 and pilots found that F-16 flew better and more reliably using Tejas's FCS than its original(made by americans).
> 
> This was during 1990s before nuclear tests. 15 years have passed since then.
> 
> Wanna pit LCA(IOC version) Vs. F-16(FOC version)? You will know who is better.



MAte this is interesting can i have a source ?


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## ARCHON

syntax_error said:


> MAte this is interesting can i have a source ?



http://www.lca-tejas.org/engine.html

MMRCA News and Discussion IV - Page 16 - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums


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## wali87

Kinetic said:


> There are many things that indian can make better than Russia. thats why a lot of Indian systems onboard SU-30MKI and much of FGFA will be done by India. If Russia was doing better than why we need to put Indian systems on Russian planes?
> 
> Simple, to fool India and get the investment. Whatever India has achieved so far is by the help of Russians.
> 
> We have our own shuttle programme, the TD will fly this year...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No wiki please.........
> 
> 
> *
> Tejas is a grand success for India. Because we developed a 4th++ fighter on our own. Most technologies needed to be developed from scratch because there was no previous knowledge and R&D facalities for developing a modern fighter. IAF already ordered 40 Teajs. *



Simple, to fool India and get the investment. Whatever India has achieved so far is by the help of Russians.

No wiki please.........

Perhaps then you could explain why after 31 years of R and D, India still does not have the so called Indigenous engine to power it. 4++ gotta be kidding me. We'll see the day its in ACTIVE service with the IAF until then please let it go..


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## wali87

developed it from scratch and then scrapped it.. I mean whats the point of putting so much investment in a design for 30 years and not putting it into service when you can easily do it in 5 years.

and please dont reply with 'The indigenous expertise' linerr..

better you could ve imported the engines and the radar ect from Russia and one it in 5-7 years.. however i would still doubt it..


CAN anyone provide me a source to what and how the Indians have contributed to this PAK-FA?


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## gogbot

wali87 said:


> India can do better? thats pretty evident from Tejas lol. Dont wana go there though anyway.



well i my self don't , agree
we have the potential to do better but its only potential , we realise very little of our own capability due to systemic bottlenecks.

I am not going to say we would do better , but i am not going to say what ever we djave to be inferior either , as result.

Its all subject really

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wali87 said:


> Nevertheless Tejas 'was' a failure as its an old story now. and don't even make me start about the missiles failures I hear on a regular basis about from the Indian media itself. I do not want this debate to go off topic



Great we have another Tejas and Missile pundit.
Harping on about how everything is failure.

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wali87 said:


> I would have loved to see Tejas being crushed by an f-16, If only the Tejas ever made it to the IAF lol. F-16s beat F-15s in dog fights my friend( search videos on the internet). so in that case u are trying to imply its even better than an F-15. Oh wait, its ever better than an F-22! whatever makes u sleep better at night.
> 
> I repeat, do not go off topic.








HAL Tejas, F-16, Eurofighter Typhoon

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wali87 said:


> Simple, to fool India and get the investment. Whatever India has achieved so far is by the help of Russians.



A foolish claim with no substance , you in no way back that up with substantial evidence.

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> Perhaps then you could explain why after 31 years of R and D,



31 year ? , so you claim , India started the LCA development in the late 70's . And what a complete farce that statement is.



> 1983-DRDO obtained permission to initiate a programme to design and develop a Light Combat Aircraft
> 
> 1984-Government of India set up Aeronautical Development Agency ADA in 1984 as the nodal agency for managing and developing the LCA.
> 
> 1985-IAF submits Air Staff Requirements (ASR) for LCA in October This was initiated by the then Air Chief Marshal Idris Hassan Latif.
> 
> 1986-Government allocates 575 crores for the LCA programme.
> Programme to develop an indigenous powerplant (engine) was launched at GTRE.
> 
> 
> 1987-Project definition commenced in October 1987 with French Dassault Aviation as consultants.
> 
> 1988-Project definition completed in September 1988.
> 
> 1989-Government review committee expresses confidence in LCA programme. It was decided that the programme will be carried out in two phases.



The 80's were spent in most administration and pre work for building the plane it self. Most of the infrastructure and facilities and agency's responsible for the plane were being set up.

Actual work only begain in 1988 when the PD was completed.



> 1990-Design of LCA was finalised as a small delta winged reverse static stability aircraft.
> Phase 1 of the development was commenced to create the proof of concept system. Financial problems within India prevented full scale operations from starting.
> 
> 1993-*Full funding started from April 1993 full-scale development work for phase 1 started in June.
> *
> 
> 1995-First technology demonstrator, TD-1, rolled out on 17 November 1995 and was followed by TD-2 in 1998. However, technical problems in flight control systems and structural deficiencies plagued the prototypes and they remained grounded.
> 
> 1997-Multi-Mode Radar (MMR) for LCA design work started at HAL&#8217;s Hyderabad division and the LRDE.
> 
> 2001
> Development assistance sought from Snecma on the Kaveri engine.
> 
> 4 January - LCA&#8217;s maiden flight successfully completed by Technology Demonstrator TD-1 , on , 2001. Prime minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee renames LCA as Tejas.
> 
> 2002
> 6 June - TD-2 makes a successful maiden flight.
> MMR system was reported to be not working as per the criteria laid down in requirements.
> 
> 2003
> 25 November - PV-1 makes a successful maiden flight.
> 
> 2005
> 1 December - PV-2 makes a successful maiden flight.
> 
> 2006
> 13 May - The PV-2 went supersonic for the first time
> 
> 14 May - The PV-2 went supersonic again, but this time in a weaponised state (i.e., carrying weapons such as missiles and an internal gun).
> 
> 1 December - The PV-3 flew for the first time for 27 minutes at an altitude of 2.5 km and at a speed of Mach 0.8. The PV-3 was equipped with a more advanced pilot interface, refined avionics and higher control law capabilities compared with the previous versions.
> 
> 2007
> 25 April - The first Limited Series Production LCA (LSP-1) made its first flight and it reached a speed of Mach 1.1.
> PV-2 and PV-3 underwent sea-level trails at INS Rajali Naval Air Station, Arakkonam to study the effects of flying at sea-level, as all earlier trials have been conducted at Bangalore which is 3,000 feet above sea-level. The reliability of the LCA systems under the hot and humid conditions, as well as low level flight characteristics was tested. It is due to this intense flight testing schedule that the LCA was not able to fly at the Paris air show-2007, as was originally planned.
> 
> 7 September - Tejas Prototype Vehicle (PV-1) made a successful maiden flight with two 800 litre drop tanks.
> 
> 25 October - Tejas PV-1 fired a Vympel R-73 missile for first time. The trials were conducted off the Goa coast at INS Hansa Naval Air Station.
> 
> 11 December - LITENING Pod was successfully tested on Tejas PV-2.
> 
> 2008
> 7 February - Tejas Prototype Vehicle (PV-1) made a successful flight powered by fuel from two 800 litre drop tanks. It made a one hour and 24 minute long sortie. On internal fuel LCA can perform a 40-minute sortie.
> 
> April - First Flight with HMDS
> LCA Tejas prototypes PV-2 & PV-3 underwent hot weather flight trials at Air Force Station, Nagpur from 28 May 2008 to 4 June 2008. The trials were declared successful.
> 
> 16 June - Tejas second Limited Series Production LCA (LSP-2) made
> its first flight and it reached a speed of Mach 1.1.
> 7 November - LCA Prototype Vehicle-3 made first successful night flight.
> 13 December - PV-3 and LSP-2 completed the high altitude at the Leh air base.
> 
> 2009
> 22 January - Tejas completed 1000 flights.
> 
> February - the live bombs test were successfully carried out.
> 
> October - PV-3 and LSP-2 completed visual target elimination and air-to-ground weapons delivery trials.
> 
> 26 November - Two seater (Trainer) version of Tejas(PV-5) made its maiden flight on 26 Nov 09.
> 
> 7 December - Tejas passed flight flutter test diving from an altitude of four kilometers to almost sea level at 900 feet. Tejas recorded a speed over 1350 kmph. These tests were conducted at INS Hansa, Goa.
> 
> 15 December - Indian government sanctioned Rs 8,000 crores to begin production of the fighter jet for the Indian Air Force and Indian Navy.
> 
> 2010
> 23 April - LCA Tejas LSP-3 Makes Maiden Flight. LSP-3 is almost the final configuration including the new air-data computers, Israeli Elta multimode radar, new communication and navigation equipment and radar warning receiver. With this the LCA programme has completed 1350 test flights logging about 800 flying hours.



So what have We achieved in the last 20 odd years of development, still a very long time.



























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> India still does not have the so called Indigenous engine to power it.



A failing , yes but only one amongst so many other success.

But the engine it self still works , IAF simply changes its requirements to higher trust engine.

But the Engine it self is still functional

Plans are also already under way for derivatives of the Kaveri, including a non-afterburning version for an advanced jet trainer and a high-bypass-ratio turbofan based on the Kaveri core, named as Kabini. i

GTX-35VS Kaveri-MK1 - Unmanned Aerial Vehicles

GTRE/SCHEMA Kaveri MKII - Dassult Rafael (India's own , if purchased.), HAL Tejas (planned for production models)

KAVERI NG - concept Based on the Kaveri MKII , to power the 
HAL Medium Combat Aircraft and beyond.

Derivatives:
The Indian government plans to adapt and further develop the Kaveri engine design and technology to create a gas-turbine powerplant for armoured fighting vehicles such as the Arjun tank.

Kaveri Marine Gas Turbine (KMGT), a recently developed derivative of the GTX-35VS Kaveri engine for ships.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also to note , the GTX-35VS Kaveri mk1(produces more trust than current Tejas engine GE-404) can be installed and used on the Tejas. IAF however is not happy with its own requirements set down in 1996 and have classified it as underpowered, meaning there are altitude and weight restrictions(important when operating in the high altitudes of Kargil or Saichen). If you are wondering why the Kaveri is not used. its becuase the GE engines have already been bought as of 2006 , when the Kaveri project showing no signs of progress. The Kaveri MkI is not to late for the Tejas MkI .

Since the GE-404 it self is unsatisfactory , a new more powerfull engine is being selected(GE-414 (f-18) or the EJ-2000 (Eurofighter)) and the Kaveri MKII is being built around those specifications.

So is they wanted to they could make a combat worthy Tejas.
They can still make one using the Current Kaveri MkI . It will just suffer from Altitude and weight restrictions


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> 4++ gotta be kidding me.



the nmber of times i get this , i keep a response ready

On the generations of Planes. I only intend to present my side of the argument, Your free to make your own choice.



> First generation jet fighters
> 
> The early aircraft of this group entered production during the closing years of World War II with planform similar to their piston counterparts. Later transonic aircraft, such as the MiG-15, are sometimes referred to as a "second generation" and the end of this generation is very loose.





> Second generation jet fighters
> 
> The beginning of this generation is blurry, but aircraft that were designed for missile armament and supersonic speed are generally considered to be at least second generation.



India's unsatisfactory "HAL HF-24 Marut" falls into this category.



> Third generation jet fighters
> 
> Third generation aircraft were based on the wrong assumption that air to air missiles would replace dogfighting, and many were initially built without internal gun armament.





> Fourth generation jet fighters
> 
> Fourth generation fighters had a renewed focus on maneuverability and many were again designed with an internal gun armament.



Now i hope we can agree that the Tejas is in this category or above.



> 4.5th generation jet fighters
> 
> This "half generation" is a term defined by the United States Government as fourth generation aircraft that have vastly improved avionics (digital fly-by-wire), sensors (Active Electronically Scanned Array radars), high speed data links and the ability to carry the latest weapons. Some sources refer to some members of this group as fourth or 4++ generation aircraft instead.



Now being a 4++ aircraft to put it simply, largely depends on the gadgets within the plane.

So the US classifies a plane 4.5 gen if it has:

(1): Digital fly-by-wire



> Since the Tejas is a "relaxed static stability" design, it is equipped with a quadruplex digital fly-by-wire flight control system to ease handling by the pilot.



(2):Electronically Scanned Array radars



> Due to delay in development of MMR, government have come out with the collaboration with IAI for development of Radar the sensor for the new radar is supposed to be *EL/M-2052 AESA* from Elta and the remaining item and software will be combination of MMR and IAI developed products. Varadarajan, (Director &#8212; LRDE) has said that LRDE has initiated development of active electronically scanning array radar for airborne applications. And that these radars will be integrated with Tejas light combat aircraft-Mark II by 2012-13.



(3):High speed data links



> India's Light Combat Aircraft tests its teeth
> 
> Each aircraft, from the time it started up, was being monitored in detail, the data transmitting live from the aircraft over a high-speed data link



Now i know for a fact that the IAF would reject any plane that did not have this feature. But just to make sure, i can back it up. I went and found an article that made specific reference to high speed data links.

(4):The ability to carry the latest weapons



> Originally intended to serve as an air superiority aircraft with a secondary "dumb bomb" ground-attack role, the flexibility of this design approach has permitted a* variety of guided air-to-surface and anti-shipping weapons to be integrated for more well-rounded multirole and multimission capabilities.*
> 
> All weapons are carried on one or more of seven hardpoints with total capacity of greater than 4,000 kg: three stations under each wing and one on the under-fuselage centreline. *There is also an eighth, offset station beneath the port-side intake trunk which can carry a variety of pods (FLIR, IRST, laser rangefinder/designator, or reconnaissance), as can the centreline under-fuselage station and inboard pairs of wing stations.*


*
*
(Additional 4++ features)

(5):Trust vectoring and super cruise 



> In September 2008, it was announced that the Kaveri would not be ready in time for the Tejas, and that an in-production powerplant would have to be selected The ADA plans to issue a request for proposal (RFP) for a more powerful engine in the 95 to 100 kilonewton (kN) (21,000&#8211;23,000 lbf) range. The contenders are likely to be the Eurojet EJ200 and the General Electric F414. The *Eurojet EJ200 propulsion offer has thrust-vectoring.*



This would be the case if the *Euro-fighter* is chosen for the MMRCA contract.

If However the *Dassault Rafale* is chosen



> ADA awarded a contract to *SNECMA* for technical assistance in working out the Kaveri's problems.
> 
> *Dassault has also offered to fit the Kaveri engine into the Rafale, which, if chosen*, which would greatly improve commonality with the Tejas aircraft that will enter service into the IAF by 2010. * India and France have recently agreed to "go beyond a buyer-seller relationship".[*



If Dassault and SCHEMA can work with GTRE to help finish the Kaveri



> Scientific Advisor to Defence Minister M Natarajan said nearly 90 to 93 per cent of the expected performance had been realised and the government had recently floated an expression of interest to seek partners to move the programme further(that partner would be SCHEMA)



Then the Project goals of the KAveri can finally be achieved.



> The Kaveri is a low-bypass-ratio (BPR) afterburning turbofan engine featuring a six-stage core high-pressure (HP) compressor with variable inlet guide vanes (IGVs), a three-stage low-pressure (LP) compressor with transonic blading, an annular combustion chamber, and cooled single-stage HP and LP turbines. The development model is fitted with an advanced convergent-divergent ("con-di") variable nozzle, but *the GTRE wants to fit production Tejas aircraft with an axisymmetric, multi-axis thrust-vectoring nozzle to further enhance the LCA's agility*
> 
> The general arrangement of the Kaveri is very similar to other contemporary combat engines, such as the Eurojet EJ200, General Electric F414, and Snecma M88. *At present, the peak turbine inlet temperature is designed to be a little lower than its peers*, but this is to enable the engine to be flat-rated to very high ambient temperatures. *Consequently, the bypass ratio that can presently be supported, even with a modest fan pressure ratio, is only about 0.16:1, which means the engine is a "'leaky' turbojet" like the F404.
> *
> The Kaveri engine has been specifically designed for the demanding Indian operating environment, which ranges from hot desert to the highest mountain range in the world. *The GTRE's design envisions achieving a fan pressure ratio of 4:1 and an overall pressure ratio of 27:1, *which will *permit the Tejas to "supercruise"* (cruise supersonically without the use of the afterburner). The Kaveri is a variable-cycle, flat-rated engine and has 13&#37; higher thrust than the General Electric F404-GE-F2J3 engines equipping the LCA prototypes.



These features are just the cherry on late but good cake.
*To all those critics of the Kaveri, India can just choose the typhoon and get the EJ2000, Which will give the Tejas both super cruise and trust vectoring, with out a shadow of a doubt*.

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> We'll see the day its in ACTIVE service with the IAF until then please let it go..
> developed it from scratch and then scrapped it.. I mean whats the point of putting so much investment in a design for 30 years and not putting it into service when you can easily do it in 5 years.



keep watching



> *IAF orders more Tejas LCAs to replace MiG-21s *
> 
> Ajai Shukla / Bangalore November 23, 2009, 0:45 IST
> 
> The Indian Air Force is taking a crucial step towards accepting the indigenous Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) as a replacement for its ageing MiG-21 fighters. *Senior air force officers told Business Standard that IAF was ordering a second Tejas squadron (20 aircraft), in addition to the 20 fighters already on order.*
> 
> Ashok Nayak, chairman of Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd, which will manufacture the Tejas, has confirmed this development. &#8220;*The Ministry of Defence (MoD) tender for 20 additional Tejas fighters is on track,*&#8221; he told Business Standard. &#8220;After it is issued, we will sit down with MoD and negotiate a price.&#8221;
> 
> The order for a second squadron is a vital expression of IAF&#8217;s confidence in the future of the long-running Tejas programme. *So far, IAF had insisted on evaluating the performance of the first squadron before ordering a second, by 2015-2016*. That would allow the Tejas to be upgraded to the Tejas Mark II, which would have a new, more powerful engine. But now, with its fighter fleet dwindling, as the old MiG-21s are retired, IAF is taking the Tejas as it is.
> 
> 
> WHY LAF URGENTLY NEEDS A SECOND SQUADRON
> * Against a sanctioned requirement of 39.5 squadrons, IAF is down to just 32
> * By 2015, another 6 squadrons of MiG-21s and two squadrons of MiG-27s would have finished their service lives
> * HAL is manufacturing Sukhoi-30MKIs, but the current production is just 14 per year. By 2015, IAF will have just 29 squadrons of fighters
> * The shortfall becomes more worrisome with the new requirement of five IAF squadrons for the North-East
> 
> 
> &#8220;*The Tejas, even with its current GE-404 engine, is a better fighter than the MiG-21*,&#8221; explained a senior IAF officer who is familiar with equipment policy. &#8220;By 2015, the first Tejas squadron will be ready for IAF. HAL&#8217;s assembly line will be free; while the Tejas Mark II finishes testing, HAL can build a second squadron with the GE-404 engine,&#8221; he added.
> 
> So far, the plan was to produce 12 twin-seater Tejas trainers after the first squadron was built. The new order will be for 18 single-seater and 2 twin-seater Tejas: exactly what equips a fighter squadron.
> 
> Here&#8217;s why IAF urgently needs that second squadron: Against a sanctioned requirement of 39.5 squadrons (each squadron has 21 fighters), IAF is now down to just 32 squadrons. By 2015, another six squadrons of MiG-21s and two squadrons of MiG-27s would have finished their service lives. Meanwhile, HAL is manufacturing Sukhoi-30MKIs, but the current production is just 14 per year. The mathematics is clear: By 2015, IAF will have just 29 squadrons of fighters.
> 
> Making this shortfall even more worrisome is the new requirement of five IAF squadrons for north-east India, as a result of an increased threat assessment from China. Senior IAF officers have recently declared that India actually needs 45 squadrons.
> 
> In this context, IAF cannot wait to induct the Tejas as the next light fighter, a role that the MiG-21 has long performed. Medium fighters are as urgently needed, and IAF is currently evaluating six aircraft for this role. But the new Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA), even if the contract is placed expeditiously, is unlikely to enter service before 2015-16. Only in the heavy fighter segment is IAF well placed, with the superlative Sukhoi-30MKI steadily joining the fleet.
> 
> The Tejas is currently undergoing weapon trials to obtain its Initial Operational Clearance, most likely by early 2011. Then starts the two-year process for obtaining Final Operational Clearance, after which it can enter service in early 2013. Then, if HAL can deliver 10 Tejas fighters per year, the first squadron will be ready by the end of 2014. And, if all of that goes smoothly, the second Tejas squadron will join IAF by the end of 2016.
> 
> IAF has decided that No 45 Squadron, which operated MiG-21M fighters until they were recently retired, will be the first Tejas squadron. It will be based in Sulur, near Coimbatore. It is still not clear where the second Tejas squadron will be based.





> *Tejas to be stationed at new IAF base in Rajasthan*
> 
> Ajay Banerjee/TNS New Delhi, April 10 India&#8217;s self-developed Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas will be based at the IAF&#8217;s brand new forward-operating base at Phalodi in Rajasthan.
> 
> Medium-lift choppers, Mi-17s will also be stationed at the base which will be 102 km from the India-Pakistan border, said sources. Uniquely, the new air base that was inaugurated four days ago is the first forward-operating airbase to be commissioned by the IAF in more than two decades.
> 
> The first lot of the LCA -- a squadron of 20 aircraft -- is scheduled to be handed over to the IAF in 11 months from now. The second squadron will follow a year later -- both are being built at the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) unit at Bangalore.
> 
> Once handed over to the IAF, the LCA&#8217;s first base, briefly, will be at a station in South India, from where the fighters will move in batches to Phalodi, the sources said. Moving planes in small batches is a normal IAF procedure. Phalodi has the capacity to handle other aircraft besides deep penetration radars.
> 
> ASIAN DEFENCE: Tejas to be stationed at new IAF base in Rajasthan



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*



> and please dont reply with 'The indigenous expertise' linerr..



Not every body like's the option of going to China when they need things built.

Some of us have to actually do it our selves with what is that word "indigenous expertise" .

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> better you could ve imported the engines and the radar ect from Russia and one it in 5-7 years.. however i would still doubt it..



in other words you have your mind made up and there no point in trying to convince you otherwise

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*



> CAN anyone provide me a source to what and how the Indians have contributed to this PAK-FA?



Sukhoi/HAL FGFA - HAL, UAC Sign Pact to Develop Fifth Generation Fighter Jet | India Defence



> Hindustan Aeronautics Limited and Russia's United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) inked a pact to jointly develop and produce a fifth generation fighter aircraft, a top HAL official said on Tuesday. "We (HAL and UAC) are moving forward as per schedule. We (have) just done the general contract yesterday. I went to Delhi and signed the general contract," HAL Chairman Ashok K Baweja said.
> 
> HAL officials noted that under a preliminary inter-governmental agreement signed in October last year, the advanced multi-role fighter is being developed by Sukhoi, part of UAC, along with the Bangalore-headquartered defence PSU.
> 
> According to reports, Russia and India would simultaneously develop two versions of the aircraft -- a two-seat version to meet the requirements of India and a single seat version for Russian Air Force. UAC had begun building a prototype of the jet fighter which would feature high manoeuvrability and stealth to ensure air superiority and precision in destroying ground and sea targets, reports said.
> 
> Asked about the proposed investment in the venture, Baweja said it was very difficult to say at this stage and added: "It will be quite a lot". He told reporters on the sidelines of the celebrations of HAL Day that the Navratna company has put on the back burner its MRO (maintenance, repair and overhaul of civil aircraft) venture plans at HAL airport following a slowdown in the world civil aviation market.



Asia Times Online :: South Asia news - India, Russia still brothers in arms

India, Russia to make 5th generation fighter jets - Specials - Home - The Times of India

The Hindu : Karnataka / Bangalore News : Indo-Russian agreement soon on PAK-FA



> The joint-venture borrows heavily from the success of the Brahmos project. Russia and India had agreed in early 2007 to jointly study and develop a Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft Programme (FGFA). On October 27, 2007, Asia Times quoted Sukhoi's director, Mikhail Pogosyan, *"We [India and Russia] will share the funding, engineering and intellectual property [of the new project] in a 50-50 proportion."* The Indian version, according to the deal, will be different from the Russian version and specific to Indian requirements. While the Russian version will be a single-pilot fighter, the Indian variant will have a twin-seat configuration based on its operational doctrine which calls for greater radius of combat operations. The wings and control surfaces need to be reworked for the FGFA.
> 
> The PAK FA and the FGFA will have minimal common technology. Further the FGFA will be predominantly using weapons of Indian origin such as Astra, a Beyond Visual Range missile being developed by India, although in keeping with the Russian BVR doctrine of using a vast variety of different missiles for versatility and unpredictability to countermeasures, it can be expected to have compatibility with many different missile loadouts. The Indian FGFA is significantly different from the Russian PAK FA because a second pilot means the addition of another dimension, development of wings and control surfaces.





India to develop 25% of fifth generation fighter idrw.org



> Scrutinising the Sukhoi Corporation&#8217;s work on the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) &#8212; a project that India will soon sign up to co-develop &#8212; gives one an idea of Russia&#8217;s size, and its aerospace expertise. During daytime, in Moscow, the Sukhoi Design Bureau conceptualises FGFA components; by 10 pm the drawings are electronically transmitted over 5,000 kilometres to a manufacturing unit in Siberia. Here, at KnAAPO (Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aircraft Production Organisation) &#8212; seven time zones away &#8212; it is already 5 am next morning. Within a couple of hours, the drawings start being translated into aircraft Production.
> Having designed over 100 aircraft (including India&#8217;s Su-30MKI), built over 10,000 fighters, and with 50 world aviation records to its credit, Sukhoi understandably regards Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) &#8212; its partner-to-be in designing the FGFA &#8212; as very much the greenhorn.
> But the newcomer wants its due. Bangalore-based HAL has negotiated firmly to get a 25 per cent share of design and development work in the FGFA programme. HAL&#8217;s work share will include critical software, including the mission computer (the Su-30MKI mission computer is entirely Indian); navigation systems; most of the cockpit displays; the counter measure dispensing (CMD) systems; and modifying Sukhoi&#8217;s single-seat prototype into the twin-seat fighter that the Indian Air Force (IAF) wants.
> 
> THE FIFTH GENERATION FIGHTER
> Cost of development	$8-10 billion
> India&#8217;s requirement	250 fighters
> Russia&#8217;s requirement	250 fighters
> Cost per aircraft	$100 million
> Indian name	FGFA
> Russian name	PAK FA
> 
> India will also contribute its expertise in aircraft composites, developed while designing the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA). Russia has traditionally built metallic aircraft; just 10 per cent of the Su-30MKI fuselage is titanium and composites. The FGFA&#8217;s fuselage, in contrast, will be 25 per cent titanium and 20 per cent composites. Russia&#8217;s expertise in titanium structures will be complemented by India&#8217;s experience in composites.
> With India&#8217;s work share almost finalised, the 2007 Russia-India Inter-Governmental Agreement (IGA) to build the FGFA will soon evolve into a commercial contract between Russia&#8217;s United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) and HAL. Ashok Baweja, until recently the chairman of HAL, told Business Standard: &#8220;When HAL and UAC agree on terms, they will sign a General Contract. This will include setting up a JV to design the FGFA, and precise details about who will fund what.&#8221;
> This contract will mark a significant shift in the aeronautical relationship between India and Russia. For decades, HAL has played a technologically subordinate role, assembling and building fighters that Russia had designed. Now, forced to accept HAL as a design partner, the Russians have negotiated hard to limit its role.
> The reason: Russia is sceptical about India&#8217;s design ability in such a cutting edge project. In June 2008, Business Standard interviewed Vyacheslav Trubnikov, then Russia&#8217;s ambassador to India, and an expert on Russia&#8217;s defence industry. Contrasting the Su-30MKI with the Tejas LCA, Trubnikov pointed out snidely, &#8220;I know perfectly well the Russian ability. But I don&#8217;t know what contribution the Indian side might make. So, one must ask the question to the Indian designers, to HAL&#8230;what is their claim for building a fighter of the fifth generation type? Either avionics, or engine? What might be India&#8217;s contribution? To be absolutely frank, I don&#8217;t know.&#8221;
> For long, the UAC argued that HAL could not expect a major role in the FGFA because Sukhoi had finished much of the work while New Delhi dithered about joining the project. UAC asserts that 5,000 Sukhoi engineers have worked for five years to design the FGFA. Such claims are hard to verify, but it is known that the Sukhoi Design Bureau has about 8,000 engineers, distributed between many different programmes.
> With Sukhoi&#8217;s ploughing on alone, Minister of State for Defence Pallam Raju admitted to Business Standard: &#8220;The longer India waits to join the project, the lesser will be our contribution. But, we are not sitting idle. Through the defence ministry&#8217;s existing programmes [such as the Tejas LCA] we are building up our capabilities.&#8221;
> Most Indian officials agree that India has not lost much. Even if the FGFA makes its much-anticipated first flight this year, it is still at a preliminary stage of development. Ashok Baweja assessed in early 2009, &#8220;The FGFA&#8217;s first flight is just the beginning of the programme. My understanding is that the Russians are going ahead (with the test) to validate the FGFA&#8217;s &#8220;proof of concept&#8221; (conceptual design). Whatever composite materials they have now, they&#8217;ll use. But, because the composites will change&#8230; the FGFA will keep evolving for a fairly long time.&#8221;
> A top ministry official estimates, &#8220;It will take another 4-5 years to develop many of the FGFA&#8217;s systems. Then, the aircraft will undergo at least 2000 hours of certification flying and, possibly, some reconfiguration. The FGFA should not be expected in service before 2017. And the twin-seat version may take a couple of years longer.&#8221;
> With just a 25 per cent share of design, South Block policymakers still believe that the FGFA project is a vital step towards India&#8217;s emergence as a military aeronautical power. &#8220;Developing 25 per cent of this fighter is far better than just transferring technology to build it in India, as we did with the Su-30MKI,&#8221; points out a defence ministry official.
> Ashok Baweja puts the project in context. &#8220;India can only (develop the FGFA) by partnering with Russia. They have so much experience. It&#8217;s not just the design&#8230; you must also have materials&#8230; maraging steel, titanium, composite alloys, and the industrial base to convert these into high-tech components like gyros, sensors and optics. The FGFA will give us important experience for building fighters hereafter.&#8221;




Russia, India to develop joint 5G-fighter by 2016 | Top Russian news and analysis online | 'RIA Novosti' newswire



> *Russia, India to develop joint 5G-fighter by 2016
> *
> 
> 02/03/2010
> 
> A Russian-Indian fifth-generation fighter jet could be developed by 2015-2016, a Russian defense industry official said on Tuesday.
> Moscow and New Delhi are expected to sign a contract on a joint development of the new fighter in the near future, focusing on the design concept and technical requirements put forward by India.
> "I hope that we will be able to build a joint fifth-generation aircraft in the next five to six years. It is a time-consuming and complex project," said Alexander Fomin, first deputy head of the Federal Service for Military and Technical Cooperation.
> The new aircraft will be most likely based on Russia's T-50 prototype fifth-generation fighter, which has already made two test flights and is expected to join the Russian Air Force in 2015.
> 
> 
> *India's Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) was reported to be seeking a 25% share in design and development in the project.*
> Fomin said the fighter for the Indian Air Force could incorporate several integrated on-board systems developed by third parties.
> "The integration is good because we will not have to invent a bicycle and can use the things that our neighbors already have, but it is also a difficult task because we will have to combine all the elements in a unified system," the official said.
> 
> The new fighter for the Indian Air Force is expected to feature a two-seat cockpit, advanced electronics and could be armed with BrahMos supersonic missiles.
> 
> Russia has been developing its fifth-generation fighter since the 1990s. The current prototype, known as the T-50, was designed by the Sukhoi design bureau and built at a plant in Komsomolsk-on-Amur, in Russia's Far East.
> 
> Russian officials have already hailed the fighter as "a unique warplane" that combines the capabilities of an air superiority fighter and attack aircraft.



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## Kinetic

wali87 said:


> Simple, to fool India and get the investment. Whatever India has achieved so far is by the help of Russians.
> 
> No wiki please.........


We have got some helps from Russia and other European countries as well but others countries also get helps. Most of Chinese systems are hevaily based on Russian design or help. Even their AEW, SAM and manned missiles also based on Russian design and helps. 

Its not easy to fool Indians like others because its a democracy. And wiki is a open source so slightly more reliable than others. 



> Perhaps then you could explain why after 31 years of R and D, India still does not have the so called Indigenous engine to power it. 4++ gotta be kidding me. We'll see the day its in ACTIVE service with the IAF until then please let it go..



India has 31 years (as you say) but what about Japan, China, Sweden, Israel? All of them could not make a engine of their own until recently. 

Tajas is a 4th++ fighter because of advanced technologies used in it. Except few technologies it has some of the most lethal capabilities in 4th fighter like next generation EW and stealthy design. 

Tejas is a grand success because We developed it and IAF inducting it. What we else need to make it a success?


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## lhuang

Kinetic said:


> We have got some helps from Russia and other European countries as well but others countries also get helps. Most of Chinese systems are hevaily* based on Russian design or help. *Even their AEW, SAM and manned missiles also based on Russian design and helps.
> 
> Its not easy to fool Indians like others because its a democracy. And wiki is a open source so slightly more reliable than others.
> 
> 
> 
> India has 31 years (as you say) but what about Japan, China, Sweden, Israel? All of them could not make a engine of their own until recently.
> 
> Tajas is a 4th++ fighter because of advanced technologies used in it. Except few technologies it has some of the most lethal capabilities in 4th fighter like next generation EW and stealthy design.
> 
> Tejas is a grand success because We developed it and IAF inducting it. What we else need to make it a success?



And Indian equivalents aren't?


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## Kinetic

lhuang said:


> And Indian equivalents aren't?



I didn't say that. I said not only Indians get foreign assistance but most of the countries except Russia and USA. Even Russia sought Israeli help for small UAVs and US forces also have many foreign inputs in their weapons/systems.


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## baker

ptldM3 said:


> Absolutely, India has alot to offer and with India's partnership i feel the PAK-FA is going to an impressive machine.



Long live india russia friendhip..........


> Relations with India have always been and I am sure will be one of the most important foreign policy priorities of our country. Our mutual ties of friendship are filled with sympathy, and trust, and openness. And we must say frankly that they were never overshadowed by disagreements or conflict. This understanding - this is indeed the common heritage of our peoples. It is valued and cherished in our country, in Russia, and in India. And we are rightfully proud of so close, so close relations between our countries.
> 
>  Dmitry Medvedev, about relations with India





> We are confident that India lives in the hearts of every Russian. In the same way, I can assure you that Russia also lives in our souls as a Homeland, as people who share our emotions, our feelings of mutual respect and constant friendship. Long live our friendship!
> 
>  Pratibha Patil, about relations with Russia





> India and Russia have several major joint military programs such as those mentioned below:
> 
> BrahMos cruise missile program
> INS Vikramaditya aircraft carrier program
> 5th generation fighter jet program
> Sukhoi Su-30MKI program (230+ to be built by Hindustan Aeronautics)
> Ilyushin/HAL Tactical Transport Aircraft
> Additionally, India has purchased/leased several military hardware from Russia:
> 
> T-90S Bhishma program. (1000+ to be built in India)
> Akula-II nuclear submarine (2 to be leased with an option to buy them when the lease expires)
> Tu-22M3 bombers (4 ordered)
> US$900 million upgrade of MiG-29
> Mil Mi-17 (80 ordered)
> Ilyushin Il-76 Candid (6 ordered to fit Israeli Phalcon radar)
> Russia's MiG-35 is competing in the Indian MRCA Competition and is considered to be the front-runner for the winning bid, given India's already, largely Russian-built air force. The Farkhor Air Base in Tajikistan is currently jointly operated by India and Russia



Source wiki


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## !!craft!!

wali87 said:


> developed it from scratch and then scrapped it.. I mean whats the point of putting so much investment in a design for 30 years and not putting it into service when you can easily do it in 5 years.
> 
> and please dont reply with 'The indigenous expertise' linerr..
> 
> better you could ve imported the engines and the radar ect from Russia and one it in 5-7 years.. however i would still doubt it..
> 
> 
> CAN anyone provide me a source to what and how the Indians have contributed to this PAK-FA?



brother i seriously dont understand what do you wannt to specify by this post??? j-10 project was started in 1986 and was introduced in 2005 with having so much experience in building aircrafts ...they have experience in building aircrafts belonging to all generations ... and no sacntions inposed on them...tejas was stareted in 1984. well indians have only build one aircraft befoer called berkut which was a second gen airctaft in guess...jumping two generation and building a 4++ aint a cookie job ...so please give us some slack...i know this project has some ups and downs ,...but india is learning from the mistakes in the past and they are surely gonna be rectified....you will definately see tejas


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## peacemaker10

so again we jumped back to LCA .. lolzz 

PAK-FA pics are awsome.. 

Sooner than later it will be in India's inventory than we will give complete unboxing review of the warbird .. 

Till then wait ..


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## Kinetic

Some new pics from some Russian sites through keypub....

What a beauty and a beast.....

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## ARCHON

gr8 pics.. this is how a fighter should be!!!!


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## Chanakyaa

What a beauty it is.
I am so relaxed and proud that India is a part of the program and IAF will get it as early as 2018.

Jai Ho.


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## truefriend

XiNiX said:


> What a beauty it is.
> I am so relaxed and proud that India is a part of the program and IAF will get it as early as 2018.
> 
> Jai Ho.



surely indian get these beauties ... 
IAF rocks


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## Barack Obama

GogBot Great post Sir.
That shut his mouth. 

Thanks for the information.


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## Kinetic

XiNiX said:


> What a beauty it is.
> I am so relaxed and proud that India is a part of the program and IAF will get it as early as 2018.
> 
> Jai Ho.



Just look though out the Indian armed forces acquisitions or developments, its always the bests in the world in their class. PAK FA, Brahmos, Akash, Scorpene, Akula-II, P-8I, Barak-8, Phalcon, LCA Tejas.... the list goes on.


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## Chanakyaa

Yes Brother The 2012-2020 period is Going to be the Golded Era of Indian Defence Advancements which will witness :

1. Large Increase in Indegenious Efforts..
2. Increased no. of JVs.
3. Very Advanced Technologies like Hypersonic Cruize Missiles, 5th Gen Fighters and Nucler Subs and 65 Ton ACs. and P8s which will be used by India as the First Foreign User !

Jai Ho !!

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## KEETARP

Little Surprised that nobody posted this news before ( 2 days back that this took place)

????????????? ?????????? // ????????.????????

Imp Translated part



> "The engine of the first phase for the PAK FA is built entirely on the traditional scheme. In particular, deprived of such characteristic elements as a *flat nozzle*, available from a competitor of our car - F-22. However, according to Eugene Marchukova, work in the field of exhaust systems are maintained. *At the stage production of technical documentation are the development of a flat nozzle and the reverse*.
> 
> From the viewpoint of gas dynamics of a planar nozzle clear disadvantages because when you create the need to make the transition from a circular section (engine) on the flat.Loss of traction at the same time can be 5-7 per cent.The advantage of only one thing - providing heat invisibility by closing the turbine blades flat.This mode is used is limited: it is switched on for 5-10 minutes to overcome the enemy's air defense system. To solve this problem, such losses are allowed. But the designers of Saturn are trying to minimize the loss of up to 2-3 per cent."



Finally - Now picture becoming more clearer .
They indeed are trying to build an all aspect stealth into Pak-Fa ( Raptorski )

*Few things to clear out* - Flat Nozzle does give an IR reduction *but* also compromises on Performance of TVC and Fuel consumption . 
No wonder Raptor has less radius than Pak-Fa.
But if Russians are devloping this type of Engine then 
-Intakes have to be changed
-Combat radius will reduce
-Thrust drop will occur , as per above link F22 had 5-6&#37; drop while Russians trying to get drop to 2-3%, now this drop wont affect supercruise capability.?
-How much less reduction in IR will occur , is it worth to go for this complex thing to achieve stealth against full TVC which is easy.
-No surprise Engine winner has told , it will take 7-8 years to develop such Engine, *Will Russians be able to do this* . 
-How much extra funding will be req and how much India will contribute money wise , i mean if they keep on making Pak-Fa better India will be asked to release more funds and further 100mill price will also shoot up.

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## wali87

As you mentioned, the entire plan of Tejas started off in 1983. So that makes it 27 years to date, except that its still not in active service and might take another 2 3 years if its ever to come into service. I'm simply saying that provided India has such tensions with Pakistan, it cannot afford such colossal delays in its defense procurement. I mean why overshadow your government's incompetence and corruption in all defense deals that your country makes. I wouldnt like to comment much about the Tejas since you people have your own opinion in regards to that. However, the plane's development has been going for 27 years, A huge waste of time and investment. I believe its in the larger interests of the corrupt Indian government officials to keep that project rolling for another few years so they can mint money off of it. Same goes for the rest of your Defence project i assume. 

Now i heard a few days ago that MCRA deal has been delayed as well. I mean come on man no matter how large the contract, it is not suppose to take 7 years in just evaluating an aircraft. Unfortunately the Indian public buys the series of propogandas laid forth by their government to address their concerns towards every delay.

By the time you guys induct anything, its already decades old.

Now coming back to the PAK-fa, Funny how all the links provided above are INDIAN based. Please provide credible sources from a Russian site stating what in what way India has contributed towards PAK-FA.

In regards to the article, ofcourse india 'WANTS' a 25 &#37; share. I ve read almost all the international sources and to my surprise none of them mentions how India is going to be putting their energies in the project except that the want a 25% share in development and would possible get the jet when developed. Which to me is not surprising at all since IND-RUS defense relations go back a long way.

coming to my original point which was that India cannot do better than Russia in Aviation. Well I thank some of the Indian members here who are not dilusional and tend to share the same thoughts. I agree fully that India has immense potential but then again every nation has the 'potential' provided they are not slashed by severe sanctions.

Lastly, India always had more access to technology even after it conducted its nuclear test in 1974 compared to Pakistan which was imposed on with embargoes starting 1989.


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## intelarpit

> By the time you guys induct anything, its already decades old.



Fortunately these decade old planes are and will be better than what our main concern has...so no worry


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## LCA Tejas

@ Wali, We dont have to prove You If India has a share in it or not, It will get proved when We Induct it, and Please, we atleast have a 5th gen Aircraft Ready, and another project going on, on the other hand You Guys are still Thinking what ever china Develops is Yours aswell, and keeping your Mouths watery On JXX Just to sleep well thinking You might get a hand on it.....

Please, Ego's will Never ever Let you progress.....


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## wali87

LCA Tejas said:


> @ Wali, We dont have to prove You If India has a share in it or not, It will get proved when We Induct it, and Please, we atleast have a 5th gen Aircraft Ready, and another project going on, on the other hand You Guys are still Thinking what ever china Develops is Yours aswell, and keeping your Mouths watery On JXX Just to sleep well thinking You might get a hand on it.....
> 
> Please, Ego's will Never ever Let you progress.....



China is a long trusted friend of ally. When the modern china was formed in the late 50s, Pakistan was the first nation to recognize it as a country. And we are are thankful to the people of china that they still honor that fact. It is in the strategic interest of China to provide Pakistan with any modern military hardware that Pakistan requires as both these countries shares a common Enemy. 

Having said that, It doesn't matter today how you get an aircraft as long as your getting it. Pakistan will definitely get the J-XX once India 'actually' poses a threat by inducted a 5th gen stealth fighter (which i believe it would not, at least till 2022 or so. I'm happy India will be getting the plane with putting minimal or no effort towards its development(not talking about funding), otherwise I repeat please provide some credible 'Russian' Source.'

In the end it all comes down to who has what in a war, not who is developing what. And in case of Pakistan and India, you can never be too certain on when a War could break out.

That is why I request to all my Indian fellow members to put their egos aside and just once, sit and think logically about how your government is fooling you.


Oh and the Russians did not even mention anything about India's contribution in this aircraft. please search Russian news and TV clipping. Wierd isn't it.


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## wali87

intelarpit said:


> Fortunately these decade old planes are and will be better than what our main concern has...so no worry



I'm not even gonna ask when when these planes will be inducted since it aggrevates all the Indian members into posting 2 pages long article without answering my question.


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## LCA Tejas

wali87 said:


> China is a long trusted friend of ally. When the modern china was formed in the late 50s, Pakistan was the first nation to recognize it as a country. And we are are thankful to the people of china that they still honor that fact. It is in the strategic interest of China to provide Pakistan with any modern military hardware that Pakistan requires as both these countries shares a common Enemy.
> 
> Having said that, It doesn't matter today how you get an aircraft as long as your getting it. Pakistan will definitely get the J-XX once India 'actually' poses a threat by inducted a 5th gen stealth fighter (which i believe it would not, at least till 2022 or so. I'm happy India will be getting the plane with putting minimal or no effort towards its development(not talking about funding), otherwise I repeat please provide some credible 'Russian' Source.'
> 
> In the end it all comes down to who has what in a war, not who is developing what. And in case of Pakistan and India, you can never be too certain on when a War could break out.
> 
> That is why I request to all my Indian fellow members to put their egos aside and just once, sit and think logically about how your government is fooling you.



My dear, projects such as 5th gen aircrafts are very sensitive and Unless otherwise You are partnering such projects, no country would ever allow You to have it, JXX is still out of reach of pakistan, Avod speculation, talk of it when the deal is done.... As of now we have only shared the development cost, No technical assistance in T-50, But In FGFA HALs work share will include critical software, including the mission computer; navigation systems; cockpit displays..... Let the FGFA roll Out and I will Tell You India's technical role in it...

And My govt is doing a fine job By Pouring funds into R&D and at the same time getting hands on such sophesticated Stuffs, while your govt is opening its Mouth wide open on Chinese Development thinking one day you *might * get it, Jf-17 by itself is on sellers credit, and you think they would do the same for JXX which is a multi billion project??


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## LCA Tejas

wali87 said:


> Oh and the Russians did not even mention anything about India's contribution in this aircraft. please search Russian news and TV clipping. Wierd isn't it.



Russia successfully tests Sukhoi T-50 Stealth fighter jet | Top Russian news and analysis online | 'RIA Novosti' newswire
Russia Fight-Tests Sukhoi T-50 Stealth Fighter

Now give your fingers some rest


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## wali87

LCA Tejas said:


> Russia successfully tests Sukhoi T-50 Stealth fighter jet | Top Russian news and analysis online | 'RIA Novosti' newswire
> Russia Fight-Tests Sukhoi T-50 Stealth Fighter
> 
> Now give your fingers some rest



Quoting from the artice you provided:

Delhi, which has a long history of defense relations with Moscow, remains Russia's sole partner in the project. *India's government-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) was reported to be seeking one-fourth share in design and development in the project*. The T-50 PAK FA is likely to be mass-produced in India, as well as in Komsomolsk-on-Amur, beginning 2015. 

Does not mention how and what India has contributed to it. *merely, Wants 1/4 share* The plane is flying and india wants a share of it.. I think its gonna be similar to the Su-30 deal.


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## LCA Tejas

wali87 said:


> Quoting from the artice you provided:
> 
> Delhi, which has a long history of defense relations with Moscow, remains Russia's sole partner in the project. *India's government-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) was reported to be seeking one-fourth share in design and development in the project*. The T-50 PAK FA is likely to be mass-produced in India, as well as in Komsomolsk-on-Amur, beginning 2015.
> 
> Does not mention how and what India has contributed to it. *merely, Wants 1/4 share* The plane is flying and india wants a share of it.. I think its gonna be similar to the Su-30 deal.



As I told you, India has no Contribution In T-50 except for the Development cost, but while manufacturing FGFA HAL will be Doing its part in Critical softwares and Avionics... As of Now I made your doubts aside that our govt is not cheating us by creating a false news. Now let the prototype of FGFA roll out to know about HAL's share... Now its the russian version which came out,FGFA is a lot different


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## wali87

LCA Tejas said:


> My dear, projects such as 5th gen aircrafts are very sensitive and Unless otherwise You are partnering such projects, no country would ever allow You to have it, JXX is still out of reach of pakistan, Avod speculation, talk of it when the deal is done.... As of now we have only shared the development cost, No technical assistance in T-50, But In FGFA HAL&#8217;s work share will include critical software, including the mission computer; navigation systems; cockpit displays..... Let the FGFA roll Out and I will Tell You India's technical role in it...
> 
> And My govt is doing a fine job By Pouring funds into R&D and at the same time getting hands on such sophesticated Stuffs, while your govt is opening its Mouth wide open on Chinese Development thinking one day you *might * get it, Jf-17 by itself is on sellers credit, and you think they would do the same for JXX which is a multi billion project??



The J-10 to is a multi-billion dollar project yet Pakistan is getting it. If China is letting Pakistan come to their country and and modify their planes to suit their needs, then it simply means they Trust Pakistan. Looking at the past events and not mere speculation, its evident that China would provide Pakistan with anything in their arsenal to counter what India has. 

India will probably not have a 5th gen fighter for another 15 years or so at least therefore there is no threat from that for a long time. Provided India's track record in procuring defense equipment in terms of the DURATION, it could be even longer.


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## wali87

anyhow, 

Does the PaK-FA has internal or external weapons bay?


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## LCA Tejas

wali87 said:


> The J-10 to is a multi-billion dollar project yet Pakistan is getting it. If China is letting Pakistan come to their country and and modify their planes to suit their needs, then it simply means they Trust Pakistan. Looking at the past events and not mere speculation, its evident that China would provide Pakistan with anything in their arsenal to counter what India has.
> 
> India will probably not have a 5th gen fighter for another 15 years or so at least therefore there is no threat from that for a long time. Provided India's track record in procuring defense equipment in terms of the DURATION, it could be even longer.



J-10 is a 4th gen aircraft, and My dear its not a new technology, nothing cutting edge in it... But JXX is a cutting edge technology which obviously will not be shared...

And what makes you think India Will take 15 years to induct itdespite the news that it would be In our Arsenal In 2018, track record is Only when There is a dilemma of what to buy like in MMRCA, Why a dilemma to get the product in which we have a deal and partnered aswel, the reality is that You cannot Digest that India would be getting hands on 5th gen while pakistan is yet to move into an era of double engined aircrafts..


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## LCA Tejas

wali87 said:


> anyhow,
> 
> Does the PaK-FA has internal or external weapons bay?



two auxiliary internal bays for short range AAMS and 6 external hardpoints if am not wrong


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## wali87

LCA Tejas said:


> J-10 is a 4th gen aircraft, and My dear its not a new technology, nothing cutting edge in it... But JXX is a cutting edge technology which obviously will not be shared...
> 
> And what makes you think India Will take 15 years to induct itdespite the news that it would be In our Arsenal In 2018, track record is Only when There is a dilemma of what to buy like in MMRCA, Why a dilemma to get the product in which we have a deal and partnered aswel, the reality is that You cannot Digest that India would be getting hands on 5th gen while pakistan is yet to move into an era of double engined aircrafts..



Well you can only wish that it will not be shared and whether Pakistan will get it or not is not up to you to decide  nor will will your statement have any effect. Try to understand, It may be cutting edge as of today as its a rare commodity but in 10-15 years it will be common. a number of countries would have developed a 5th generation fighter. 

J-10B is a 4.5 generation aircraft. Pakistan's air chief mentioned in an interview in 2008 that Pakistan will be acquiring 4.5-5th generation fighters in the future as per their needs.


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## wali87

LCA Tejas said:


> two auxiliary internal bays for short range AAMS and 6 external hardpoints if am not wrong




Isn't the external weapons bay going to compromise the stealth aspect to some extent?


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## LCA Tejas

wali87 said:


> Well you can only wish that it will not be shared and whether Pakistan will get it or not is not up to you to decide  nor will will your statement have any effect. Try to understand, It may be cutting edge as of today as its a rare commodity but in 10-15 years it will be common. a number of countries would have developed a 5th generation fighter.
> 
> Pakistan's air chief mentioned in an interview in 2008 that Pakistan will be acquiring 4.5-5th generation fighters in the future as per their needs.



Iam no one to wish if you get it or not, the only thing I am trying to say is first make a deal or a contract rather than speculating you would get JXX..... And PAF has not gone for twin engined aircrafts because of Costlier management Issues, so Even if you buy JXX could you Match up 450FGFA and 50 T-50's India would be having?? Here India has a deal of TOT and Make it domestically and Pakistan on the other hand Is Speculating, Now You yourself decide Are You fair Enough?

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## LCA Tejas

wali87 said:


> Isn't the external weapons bay going to compromise the stealth aspect to some extent?



I too have the same doubt, can anyone clarify it for us, Wouldnt the External weapon bay compromise stealth?


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## ptldM3

wali87 said:


> anyhow,
> 
> Does the PaK-FA has internal or external weapons bay?



Of course, and they're clearly visible from pictures posted.





LCA Tejas said:


> I too have the same doubt, can anyone clarify it for us, Wouldnt the External weapon bay compromise stealth?



From specultion the "external weapons" bay isn't at all external but rather internal, if you look underneath the wings you can see two pods, this is where the presumed weapons will go.


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## LCA Tejas

ptldM3 said:


> From specultion the "external weapons" bay isn't at all external but rather internal, if you look underneath the wings you can see two pods, this is where the presumed weapons will go.




Hmnn I see, So it does not compromise stealth


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## mshoaib61

INSIDE Transport Aircraft


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## ptldM3

*New Pics*

http://img22.imageshack.us/i/o421595.jpg/


http://img576.imageshack.us/i/o421602.jpg/


http://img571.imageshack.us/i/o421601.jpg/


http://img291.imageshack.us/i/o421596.jpg/


http://img231.imageshack.us/i/o421597.jpg/


http://img98.imageshack.us/i/o421599.jpg/

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## LCA Tejas

Cool pictures buddy, thanks


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## MAB

Thanks for the pictures, truly an awesome looking fighter.


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## ptldM3

StealthQL-707PK said:


> This PAK-FA or FGFA/T-50 jet look like *flat, thin, smaller* than Su-30MKI/ MIG-35 ? What I find that *there are just few minor design changing*, very similar to Su-27/Mig-29.
> *
> F-22 Raptor* and *J-XX*(coming out) are more sexier and muscular than _this jet_ in my opinion.



Are you serious? The PAK-FA and the SU-27 coundn't be more different, the only smilarites they share is the widely spaced engines, the two aircraft have different noses, different vertical stabs, different inakes, different canopy, different wing layout/shape, and in general the entire fuselage is different. Also stop cluttering the thread with unrelated pictures esspecially fan art.


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## wali87

LCA Tejas said:


> Iam no one to wish if you get it or not, the only thing I am trying to say is first make a deal or a contract rather than speculating you would get JXX..... And PAF has not gone for twin engined aircrafts because of Costlier management Issues, so Even if you buy JXX could you Match up 450FGFA and 50 T-50's India would be having?? Here India has a deal of TOT and Make it domestically and Pakistan on the other hand Is Speculating, Now You yourself decide Are You fair Enough?



Make a deal or contract? you lead me with no choice but to say the obvious. You need to first successfully develop and induct an aircraft in your air force first, in order to have a credible track record. I mean India hasn't even successfully inducted a LIGHT COMBAT AIRCRAFT and your talking about inducting a 5th generation stealth. Speaking about track record and basing it on that, you will never end up inducting a fighter, whether yourself or with Russian assistance. Unless of course, Russia makes and and markets it to India with TOT, which India can then manufacture at home and call it indigenous. 

450 FGFA is good for humour. please provide a source to that. And even if India does end up acquiring a Russian 5th gen in such numbers which is highly unlikely, It would never station them all on the Pakistan border. Rather 3/4 of it would be most probably based on the chinese border because China would obviously have stationed JXX on INDO-CHI border in largerrrr numbers than India. Like I mentioned earlier, its in the larger strategic interest of China to provide Pakistan any weapons to match India. So that answers your question of matching.

For now its better for PAF to just speculate because it takes Pakistan faaar less time time evaluate or develop and '*SUCCESSFULLY* induct an airplane. Unlike SOME COUNTRIES. lol


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## wali87

Hmm.. They need to be internal, if the plane is to have a chance to compete with the F-22. Finally there is something to compete with the westerners who have been dominating the skies form the past few decades.

However, I have a bad feeling the Americans are already working on something more advanced than the Raptor.


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## gowthamraj

wali87 said:


> Make a deal or contract? you lead me with no choice but to say the obvious. You need to first successfully develop and induct an aircraft in your air force first, in order to have a credible track record. I mean India hasn't even successfully inducted a LIGHT COMBAT AIRCRAFT and your talking about inducting a 5th generation stealth. Speaking about track record and basing it on that, you will never end up inducting a fighter, whether yourself or with Russian assistance. Unless of course, Russia makes and and markets it to India with TOT, which India can then manufacture at home and call it indigenous.
> 
> 450 FGFA is good for humour. please provide a source to that. And even if India does end up acquiring a Russian 5th gen in such numbers which is highly unlikely, It would never station them all on the Pakistan border. Rather 3/4 of it would be most probably based on the chinese border because China would obviously have stationed JXX on INDO-CHI border in largerrrr numbers than India. Like I mentioned earlier, its in the larger strategic interest of China to provide Pakistan any weapons to match India. So that answers your question of matching.
> 
> For now its better for PAF to just speculate because it takes Pakistan faaar less time time evaluate or develop and '*SUCCESSFULLY* induct an airplane. Unlike SOME COUNTRIES. lol


ya man India is not some country with all toys copying without innovation. . Between india have 25percent design sharing in both pak-fa and fgfa


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## booo

StealthQL-707PK said:


> Mate, I am not here to disappoint you......For the billions dollars of investments, I expect Russia could develop a very serious jet aside from the traditional family of Su-27 flankers, Su-30, as well as Su-30MKI/MiG-35. Same two engines, same air-intakes under nose, two wings, large tail beams (flares), IRST system, more advanced avionics, and some extra weapons. Hence, I agreed, it couldn't more different. I encourage Russia to stay focus on MiG-35.


Thanks for the advice. 



StealthQL-707PK said:


> similar design as Su-27/PAK-FA?
> 
> Could you take a look at F-16 vs F-22? A very big differences, correct?
> 
> Here's real pictures of *J-XX* below which is still process.


good photochop. everyone agrees here with me when I say china has the best photochop engineers.



StealthQL-707PK said:


> BTW, I sometimes wonder "PAK"FA or FGFA _(twin seater)_. What the heck "PAK"istan?.....Can you kindly advise to explain the meaning of PAKFA? .... FGFA (I could say in pronouce FAGFAA?).....


*The Sukhoi PAK FA (Russian: &#1055;&#1077;&#1088;&#1089;&#1087;&#1077;&#1082;&#1090;&#1080;&#1074;&#1085;&#1099;&#1081; &#1072;&#1074;&#1080;&#1072;&#1094;&#1080;&#1086;&#1085;&#1085;&#1099;&#1081; &#1082;&#1086;&#1084;&#1087;&#1083;&#1077;&#1082;&#1089; &#1092;&#1088;&#1086;&#1085;&#1090;&#1086;&#1074;&#1086;&#1081; &#1072;&#1074;&#1080;&#1072;&#1094;&#1080;&#1080;, Perspektivny aviatsionny kompleks frontovoy aviatsii, literally "Future Frontline Aircraft System")*

That explains the word PAK-FA and your knowledge on military air craft.

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## ptldM3

StealthQL-707PK said:


> Mate, I am not here to disappoint you......For the billions dollars of investments, I expect Russia could develop a very serious jet aside from the traditional family of Su-27 flankers, Su-30, as well as Su-30MKI/MiG-35. *Same two engines, same air-intakes under nose, two wings, large tail beams (flares), IRST system*, more advanced avionics, and some extra weapons. Hence, I agreed, it couldn't more different. I encourage Russia to stay focus on MiG-35.



There are two types of fighers, single engine and twine engine, by your standars the PAK-FA is also similar to the F-14. As for the PAK-FA's intakes, they are very different than those that are on the SU-27. Yes both SU-27 and PAK-FA have intakes under the feselage. However, the geometry is different, lets take a look and compare.

http://img22.imageshack.us/i/800pxpakfat50.jpg/

http://img36.imageshack.us/i/271054831dca482850a600e.jpg/





StealthQL-707PK said:


> *similar design as Su-27/PAK-FA*?



No, not even close.



StealthQL-707PK said:


> Could you take a look at F-16 vs F-22? A very big differences, correct?



Yes there is and there is also big differences between the PAK-FA and SU-27. The fact is Russia wanted a twin engine stealth aircraft, now take into account that *all* stealth aircraft have to have twine vertial stabalizers. This is simple criteria, and by no means does it imply the PAK-FA resembles the SU-27, nor does it imply it barrowed from its design.



StealthQL-707PK said:


> Here's real pictures of *J-XX* below which is still process.



That is not a real picture, that picture has been floating around the net for years, there was even people saying it was the PAK-FA of course gullible people always beleive the picture is real but by using depth perception one will see that it looks like something out of a video game.




StealthQL-707PK said:


> BTW, I sometimes wonder "PAK"FA or FGFA _(twin seater)_. What the heck "PAK"istan?.....Can you kindly advise to explain the meaning of PAKFA? .... FGFA (I could say in pronouce FAGFAA?).....



Translated fom Russian: Perspektivny aviatsionny kompleks frontovoy aviatsii, literally "Future Frontline Aircraft System"

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## gowthamraj

ptldM3 said:


> There are two types of fighers, single engine and twine engine, by your standars the PAK-FA is also similar to the F-14. As for the PAK-FA's intakes, they are very different than those that are on the SU-27. Yes both SU-27 and PAK-FA have intakes under the feselage. However, the geometry is different, lets take a look and compare.
> 
> http://img22.imageshack.us/i/800pxpakfat50.jpg/
> 
> http://img36.imageshack.us/i/271054831dca482850a600e.jpg/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, not even close.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes there is and there is also big differences between the PAK-FA and SU-27. The fact is Russia wanted a twin engine stealth aircraft, now take into account that *all* stealth aircraft have to have twine vertial stabalizers. This is simple criteria, and by no means does it imply the PAK-FA resembles the SU-27, nor does it imply it barrowed from its design.
> 
> 
> 
> That is not a real picture, that picture has been floating around the net for years, there was even people saying it was the PAK-FA of course gullible people always beleive the picture is real but using depth perception will tell you it looks like something out of a video game.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Translated fom Russian: Perspektivny aviatsionny kompleks frontovoy aviatsii, literally "Future Frontline Aircraft System"


did you have any idea on weapon carry by pak-fa (means ata missiles,did it have HMCS)


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## gogbot

I gave you all the information , if you use your browsers search feature you can find all the info in my original post



wali87 said:


> As you mentioned, the entire plan of Tejas started off in 1983. So that makes it 27 years to date,



You know how People always say India cant get anything of paper.

Well by that logic The Tejas only existed on Paper by 1991. that's when the design of the plane was finalised.

The project definition did not even happen until 1988 .

In 1983 all they had was the mission of making a 4th generation aircraft with what they had , it took them 7 years to get the point where they could actually even attempt it.





> except that its still not in active service and might take another 2 3 years if its ever to come into service.



It will be in service next year.

Construction of the aircraft has already commenced.

It is finally happening get used to it



> I'm simply saying that provided India has such tensions with Pakistan, it cannot afford such colossal delays in its defense procurement.



IAF still out numbers and our performs PAF .

you only have some 50 f-16's , maybe one squadron of JF-17.



> I mean why overshadow your government's incompetence and corruption in all defense deals that your country makes.



that exists in all nations , singling out India proves nothing



> I wouldnt like to comment much about the Tejas since you people have your own opinion in regards to that.



You already have 
commented and that is the reason for my posts.




> However, the plane's development has been going for 27 years, A huge waste of time and investment.



21 years, i only consider development to have stated from 1988 when they had a project definition

Also the remainder just goes against common sense



> I believe its in the larger interests of the corrupt Indian government officials to keep that project rolling for another few years so they can mint money off of it. Same goes for the rest of your Defence project i assume.



Again happen's everywhere. 
Can't be helped.



> Now i heard a few days ago that MCRA deal has been delayed as well. I mean come on man no matter how large the contract, it is not suppose to take 7 years in just evaluating an aircraft.



If you actually know anything about the MMRCA contract you will also know that outside the American planes. None of the other planes will even be ready for production until 2013.

SAAN Griphen NG and MIg-35 are still in development

EF and RAF still have yet to incorporate the upgrades.

As of now these aircraft don't meet the IAF requirements.

This delays is only a technicality in the contract wording.




> Unfortunately the Indian public buys the series of propogandas laid forth by their government to address their concerns towards every delay.



Great are you an analyst with inside sources to confirm all this , or is it just common sense that tells you everything.

we have enough self proclaimed defence pundits



> By the time you guys induct anything, its already decades old.



BY that logic the F-16 should be an ancient relic

By the time Pak get's the J-10 it will also be old.

But wait no, that is not the case why is that ?

it is because of continuous upgrades to technology while still in development, part of the delay was creeping requirements.

if you are so confident in your statement point out any obsolescence in the Tejas , and i will gladly respond.



> Now coming back to the PAK-fa, Funny how all the links provided above are INDIAN based. Please provide credible sources from a Russian site stating what in what way India has contributed towards PAK-FA.



The alst article i agev you was from a Russian source



> In regards to the article, ofcourse india 'WANTS' a 25 % share. I ve read almost all the international sources and to my surprise none of them mentions how India is going to be putting their energies in the project except that the want a 25% share in development and would possible get the jet when developed. Which to me is not surprising at all since IND-RUS defense relations go back a long way.



Again you are making assumptions with out understand or reading the information properly.

This is a 50-50 venture meaning we have as much say in the project as they do. the Russians came to us we did not go to them.

They want us on the project they give us what we want, 25% development of the FGFA not the PAK FA is a very reasonable demand. ( if you actually bothered to read you would know the difference between the PAK-FA and FGFA)

And that is exactly what is being discussed on the negotiations table



> coming to my original point which was that India cannot do better than Russia in Aviation. Well I thank some of the Indian members here who are not dilusional and tend to share the same thoughts. I agree fully that India has immense potential but then again every nation has the 'potential' provided they are not slashed by severe sanctions.



true , you make a fair point.
But not every nation has the same resources and money.



> Lastly, India always had more access to technology even after it conducted its nuclear test in 1974 compared to Pakistan which was imposed on with embargoes starting 1989.



India has been under and continues to be subject to the technology denial regimes . We had no picnic our selves.

every high technology venture we have undertaken has resulted in blocks by foreign nations , resulting in delays and development of indigenous alternatives.

DRDO and ISRO had to deliver on very tough order , with limited budgets and systemic bottlenecks

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## gogbot

wali87 said:


> Make a deal or contract? you lead me with no choice but to say the obvious. You need to first successfully develop and induct an aircraft in your air force first, in order to have a credible track record. I mean India hasn't even successfully inducted a LIGHT COMBAT AIRCRAFT



Again with that 




> and your talking about inducting a 5th generation stealth. Speaking about track record and basing it on that, you will never end up inducting a fighter, whether yourself or with Russian assistance. Unless of course, Russia makes and and markets it to India with TOT, which India can then manufacture at home and call it indigenous.





You just don't get it do you , India own the plane. it is 50-50 with Russia.



> Russia And India To Develop Joint 5G-fighter By 2016
> 
> Russia And India To Develop Joint 5G-fighter By 2016
> 
> The new aircraft will be most likely based on Russia's T-50 prototype fifth-generation fighter, which has already made two test flights and is expected to join the Russian Air Force in 2015.
> by Staff Writers
> Moscow (RIA Novosti) Mar 10, 2010
> 
> *A Russian-Indian fifth-generation fighter jet could be developed by 2015-2016, a Russian defense industry official said on Tuesday.
> **Moscow and New Delhi are expected to sign a contract on a joint development of the new fighter in the near future, focusing on the design concept and technical requirements put forward by India.*
> 
> *"I hope that we will be able to build a joint fifth-generation aircraft in the next five to six years. It is a time-consuming and complex project," said Alexander Fomin, first deputy head of the Federal Service for Military and Technical Cooperation.
> *
> *The new aircraft will be most likely based on Russia's T-50 prototype fifth-generation fighter, which has already made two test flights and is expected to join the Russian Air Force in 2015.
> *
> *India's Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) was reported to be seeking a 25% share in design and development in the project.
> *
> Fomin said the fighter for the Indian Air Force could incorporate several integrated on-board systems developed by third parties.
> 
> "The integration is good because we will not have to invent a bicycle and can use the things that our neighbors already have, but it is also a difficult task because we will have to combine all the elements in a unified system," the official said.
> 
> *The new fighter for the Indian Air Force is expected to feature a two-seat cockpit, advanced electronics and could be armed with BrahMos supersonic missiles.
> *
> Russia has been developing its fifth-generation fighter since the 1990s. The current prototype, known as the T-50, was designed by the Sukhoi design bureau and built at a plant in Komsomolsk-on-Amur, in Russia's Far East.
> 
> Russian officials have already hailed the fighter as "a unique warplane" that combines the capabilities of an air superiority fighter and attack aircraft.
> 
> India set to buy 42 more Russian Su-30 fighter jets
> New Delhi (RIA Novosti) Mar 10 - India and Russia are negotiating a new contract on the delivery of 42 Su-30MKI to the Indian Air Force, an Indian newspaper reported on Tuesday, citing military sources.
> 
> According to the Daily News and Analysis newspaper, the new deal, which is reportedly worth more than $3 billion, has been in the works for several months.
> 
> The new air-superiority fighters will come on top of the 230 already contracted from Russia in three deals worth a total of $8.5 billion.
> 
> "The [new] order is being placed due to the insufficient number of fighter squadrons in the Indian Air Force and would allow us to eliminate potential threats," a source in the Indian Defense Ministry told RIA Novosti.
> 
> India originally ordered 50 Su-30MKI aircraft from Russia in 1996-98 and an additional 40 planes in 2007. Hindustani Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) was also contracted to build 140 aircraft in India between 2003 and 2017 under a licensed production agreement.
> 
> The Indian Air Force currently has about 100 Su-30MKIs, mainly deployed at airbases close to the borders with China and Pakistan.





> India, Russia agree details of joint 5G-fighter project | Top Russian news and analysis online | 'RIA Novosti' newswire
> 
> *India and Russia have agreed in general on shared responsibility for the joint development of the fifth-generation fighter, the chairman of the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) said.
> Moscow and New Delhi are expected to sign a contract on the joint development of the new fighter in the near future, focusing on the design concept and technical requirements put forward by India.
> "Currently, broad areas of work sharing have been identified. Composite materials, avionics, etc. could be some of the focus areas of HAL," Ashok Nayak said in an exclusive interview with RIA Novosti.
> Nayak did not specify the cost of the project but said it would be split evenly between India and Russia.*
> *The sides agreed to develop both a single-seat and a two-seat versions of the aircraft by 2016, focusing on the single-seat version in the initial stages of development.
> "Both versions will be put in service with the Indian Air Force," Nayak said.
> The HAL chairman said the Indian side had already specified technical requirements for the single-seat version and passed them on to Russian manufacturers.
> "The general agreement is that we work on both sides - the Russians and the Indians will cooperate on both versions of the aircraft," he said.*
> The new aircraft will be most likely based on Russia's T-50 prototype fifth-generation fighter, which has already made two test flights and is expected to join the Russian Air Force in 2015.
> Russia has been developing its fifth-generation fighter since the 1990s. The current prototype, known as the T-50, was designed by the Sukhoi design bureau and built at a plant in Komsomolsk-on-Amur, in Russia's Far East.
> Russian officials have already hailed the fighter as "a unique warplane" that combines the capabilities of an air superiority fighter and attack aircraft.





> defence.professionals | defpro.com
> 
> The Indian Factor
> 
> *Back in early 2007, Russia and India reached an agreement to cooperate on a Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) based on the PAK FA for the Indian Air Force. The programme is officially described as involving a 50-50% split as regards both financing and R&D activities, but it is nearly universally understood to rather cover a scheme, under which India will fund a substantial portion of the PAK FAs development bill in exchange for access to the relevant technologies.
> *
> The Indian Air Forces requirements do differ rather substantially from the Russian Air Forces, and are reported to demand a twin-seat configuration as well as possibly a different wing and control surfaces. *Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd is expected to become responsible for some 25% of the total development workload for the FGFA programme, involving modifying the PAK FA single-seater airframe to a twin-seater configuration as well as the mission computer, navigation system, cockpit displays and ECM dispensers. HAL will of course also take care of eventual series production of a tentatively planned total of some 200-250 aircraft.
> *
> Indian sources have ventured into suggesting that the FGFA could be in service by 2015.





> ÎÀÎ "Êîìïàíèÿ "Ñóõîé" - Íîâîñòè - Íîâîñòè êîìïàíèè
> 
> Moscow, January 29. Today in Komsomolsk - on - Amur hosted the first flight of an experienced aviation complex of the fifth generation. The plane was piloted Honored Test Pilot of the Russian Federation Sergey Bogdan. Prototype of the PAK FA is held in the air 47 minutes and landed on the runway factory airfield.
> 
> The flight was successful, in full accordance with the flight plan. "In the course of the flight we had initial evaluation controllability of the aircraft, engine and major systems, the aircraft made a full-time cleaning, and landing gear. The aircraft is working well in all phases of our planned flight program. They are easily and comfortably manage, "- said Sergey Bogdan.
> 
> Compared with previous generations of fighters, PAK FA has several unique features, combining the functions of attack aircraft and fighter.
> 
> The aircraft is equipped with a fifth-generation an entirely new set of avionics, the integrating function of the e-pilot, and forward-looking radar with a phased array. This greatly reduces the load on the pilot and can concentrate on the implementation of tactical tasks. Board equipment of the new aircraft allows the sharing of data in real time as a land-management systems, and inside air group.
> 
> The use of composite materials and innovative technology, aerodynamic design aircraft, measures to reduce the visibility of the engine provides unprecedented low level of radar, optical and infrared visibility. This can greatly increase the combat effectiveness in the work, both by air and ground targets, at any time of day, in simple and adverse weather conditions.
> 
> "Today we have begun a program of flight tests of fifth generation aircraft. This is a great success of Russian science and engineering thought. For this achievement is cooperation more than a hundred related companies, our strategic partners. PAK FA program brings the Russian aircraft industry and related industries on a qualitatively new technological level. The aircraft, along with modernized aviation complexes of the fourth generation will determine the potential of the Russian Air Force in the coming decades. *The plans of the Company "Sukhoi" is included and further development of the PAK FA program, on which we will work with Indian partners.* *I am confident that our joint project will surpass foreign analogues by the criterion of cost-effectiveness and will not only strengthen the defensive power of the Russian Air Force and India, but will take its rightful place in the world market ", - said General Director of company" Sukhoi "Mikhail Pogosyan, Commenting on the beginning of flight tests.
> *





> BBC News - Russia unveils its first stealth fighter jet
> 
> Russia has unveiled its new stealth fighter jet, meant to boost the country's ageing arsenal of weaponry and be a rival to the US F-22 Raptor.
> The Sukhoi T-50, also called the PAK FA, made its maiden flight in Russia's far east. Test pilot Sergei Bogdan said it was "easy and comfortable to pilot".
> Prime Minister Vladimir Putin said much work needed to be done before mass production began in 2015.
> Stealth technology is meant to nearly eliminate a plane's radar signature.
> The plane is being developed by the Sukhoi company at its Komsomolsk-on-Amur production plant.
> *The new jet has been developed in partnership with India. It is seen as a significant milestone in Russia's efforts to modernise its Soviet-era military hardware.
> **Sukhoi's director Mikhail Pogosyan said he was convinced that the project would "excel its Western rivals in cost-effectiveness and will not only allow strengthening of the defence power of the Russian and Indian air forces, but also gain a significant share of the world market".*
> The company says the jet's stealth features considerably enhance its combat effectiveness in all weathers.
> Its features include: all-weather capability, ability to use a take-off strip of just 300-400 metres, capacity for sustained supersonic flight including repeated in-flight refuelling, advanced avionics, simultaneous attacks on air and ground targets.
> But analysts have denied the jet is a leap forward.
> "It's just a prototype lacking new engines and a new radar," military analyst Pavel Felgenhauer told the Associated Press news agency.
> Originally scheduled for 2007, the T-50's maiden flight was repeatedly postponed because of technical problems.
> Observers of Russia's recent military modernisation drive say it has been plagued by delays and quality problems.






> domain-b.com : India to induct 5th-gen fighter jets by 2018
> 
> As part of India's efforts to effectively meet the emerging threats in its immediate geographical environment the Russo-Indian fifth generation fighter aircraft programme (FGFA) will result in state-of-the art stealth fighters being inducted into the Indian Air Force by 2018.
> 
> According to Indian Air Force chief, Air Marshal PV Naik, "The fifth generation aircraft would possess technologies which would provide it (India) the edge over adversaries in future air warfare,"
> 
> 
> PAK-FA in debut fligh
> "China is rapidly modernising its air force," he said. "On our part, the IAF is reviewing its tactics regularly to increase its combat potential."
> 
> The Russo-Indian PAK-FA fifth-generation fighters, slated to match and outperform the US F-22 Raptor, can evade sophisticated radars and operate from short airstrips. It also has longer enduarnce than the current lot of fighters, being able to stay in the air for a lomger period of time, air force officials said.
> 
> 
> *India plans to procure at least 200 of the 5th-gen PAK-FA fighters, each valued at $100 million. India will spend atleast $32 billion over the next five years to modernise its largely Soviet-era weapons systems.
> *
> *Though governmnet-level agreements are already in place for the PAK-FA programme, the two companies India's Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) and the Russian designer and manufacturer, the Sukhoi design bureau, are yet to work out the details.
> *







> 450 FGFA is good for humour.



Its 250 for India and 250 for Russia.



> And even if India does end up acquiring a Russian 5th gen in such numbers which is highly unlikely, It would never station them all on the Pakistan border. Rather 3/4 of it would be most probably based on the chinese border because China would obviously have stationed JXX on INDO-CHI border in largerrrr numbers than India. Like I mentioned earlier, its in the larger strategic interest of China to provide Pakistan any weapons to match India. So that answers your question of matching.



You speak about the J-xx as if its already inducted.

Let them first build it , and deploy it.

At least the PAk-FA is flying only Chinese government know about the J-XX , let then build an engine for J-10 , then i will at least consider the possibility or its flight

and even 1/4 of FGFA's can cause havoc to regular forces



> For now its better for PAF to just speculate because it takes Pakistan faaar less time time evaluate or develop and '*SUCCESSFULLY* induct an airplane. Unlike SOME COUNTRIES. lol



Is that why J-10 is wont see is not part of your inventory till of 2015

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## sirius4u

gowthamraj said:


> did you have any idea on weapon carry by pak-fa (means ata missiles,did it have HMCS)



It sure will... Mig 29 was the first aircraft to have JHMCS... Mind you it was in the 80s So it would be stupid for the russians to leave it out on its future combat aircraft...



> Two Izdeliye 810 Extended beyond visual range missiles per weapons bay. Multiple Izdeliye 180 / K77M beyond visual range missiles. K74 and K30 within visual range missiles can also be carried.



The Izedeliye 810 has a range of over 350 km.... Much like the Novator... Its in final stages of development for both PAK-FA and the MKI. It will be extremely hard to fool this missile as it is speculated that it possesses artificial intelligence...

Cant wait to see it...


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## DMLA

from the insider of transport aircraft being transfered!

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## KEETARP

^^^
Space between Nozzles looks good enough infavt much bigger than Su33

It can host a descent 
-Reward facing Radar ( X band or L band )
-A parachute brake 
-A perfect Decoy
-Even an Arrestor hook if Naval Pak-Fa is planned.

And after all these , it still provides area for full deflecting nozzles to give complete TVC .
But recent news of Flat Nozzles makes it unimportant

What do you think of our MKI , i heard that it has a reward facing N012 back , but then it turned out many experts opined that no backward radar is on MKI.


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## sirius4u

LT.PRATEEK said:


> ^^^
> 
> 
> But recent news of Flat Nozzles makes it unimportant



What...? Flat nozzles for PAK FA...? 

Pls elaborate or kindly provide a link....


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## KEETARP

sirius4u said:


> What...? Flat nozzles for PAK FA...?
> 
> Pls elaborate or kindly provide a link....



Sure 

Plz check out the Page4 of this thread and the last post . 

I posted it earlier , but i guess being a small news everyone missed it.


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## DMLA

LT.PRATEEK said:


> ^^^
> Space between Nozzles looks good enough infavt much bigger than Su33
> 
> It can host a descent
> -Reward facing Radar ( X band or L band )
> -A parachute brake
> -A perfect Decoy
> -Even an Arrestor hook if Naval Pak-Fa is planned.
> 
> And after all these , it still provides area for full deflecting nozzles to give complete TVC .
> But recent news of Flat Nozzles makes it unimportant
> 
> What do you think of our MKI , i heard that it has a reward facing N012 back , but then it turned out many experts opined that no backward radar is on MKI.



Well brake chute, arrestor hook, decoy etc are all part of the current su-27/30 line up. So no changes there! As far as rear radar goes, mki's don't have one and PAKFA will have one (in all likelihood)! The flight test program should throw up interesting challenges wrt design and specs. We will have to wait and see what happens. IMO, new engines are the most critical element of this program and will define its capabilities to a large extent. Too many radars/ systems will put increased strain on the engines as well and thus the new generation engine is all important!


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## KEETARP

^^^^^^^^^^^
Decoy on MKI , Are you sure ???????


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## KEETARP

From *Jane's* Defence Weekly:

"Russian analysts familiar with the T-50 prototype configuration state that *production series models* will require *major changes in inlet geometry* in order to achieve the required *reductions in radar cross-section*. The *current* layout has the *117S fan-face* in a direct l*ine of sight* with the air intake, which would make its frontal hemisphere too observable."

Nice , now two new developments in this week -

1.Change in intakes-
2.Flat Nozzles -

That shows they are definitely in line of creating Raptorski.

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## ptldM3

Tada!

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## Trichy

ptldM3 said:


> Tada!



nice cg man


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## Srinivas

wali87 said:


> Make a deal or contract? you lead me with no choice but to say the obvious. You need to first successfully develop and induct an aircraft in your air force first, in order to have a credible track record. I mean India hasn't even successfully inducted a LIGHT COMBAT AIRCRAFT and your talking about inducting a 5th generation stealth. Speaking about track record and basing it on that, you will never end up inducting a fighter, whether yourself or with Russian assistance. Unless of course, Russia makes and and markets it to India with TOT, which India can then manufacture at home and call it indigenous.
> 
> 450 FGFA is good for humour. please provide a source to that. And even if India does end up acquiring a Russian 5th gen in such numbers which is highly unlikely, It would never station them all on the Pakistan border. Rather 3/4 of it would be most probably based on the chinese border because China would obviously have stationed JXX on INDO-CHI border in largerrrr numbers than India. Like I mentioned earlier, its in the larger strategic interest of China to provide Pakistan any weapons to match India. So that answers your question of matching.
> 
> For now its better for PAF to just speculate because it takes Pakistan faaar less time time evaluate or develop and '*SUCCESSFULLY* induct an airplane. Unlike SOME COUNTRIES. lol



LCA tejas is going to be inducted soon buddy don't worry about it. I agree that the projects like Tejas, Arjun and some missiles are declared as failures to some extent they really are, but that is the way democracy works. Do you know how many failures chinese have faced during their development of J10 or J17 you will never know it because that is communism and tight media control.
Recent 2 or 3 years are good for DRDO and they are doing well with missiles, Arjun project and Tejas. We need some advanced tech to catch up with West and Russia and we are getting the help in JV's and techtransfers so *don't worry about india's defence agencies they all will be doing well if not better than chinese industries in the coming years. 
*. 
Regarding pakistan as a counter weight to India those days are gone buddy believe me the gap will become even wider as the time progresses. All pakistan can do is to achieve the minimum deterrence against an imagined enemy India(I even doubt India will attach pakistan). 
Regarding chinese jxx they are getting help from Russia that is not entirely indigenous. And why would Russia allow a competitor in its market by transferring all the tech so Cheer up.
And pakistan will eventually get the JXX but by that time India will get FGFA which is a home grown fighter with complete indigenous technology or atleast we will have a technology base to design 6th gen fighter.
JAI HO


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## Prowler

Finally Learned how to post Images.

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## xMustiiej70

T-50 have canards? Dude.. that plane aint stealth anymore..


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## jagjitnatt

xMustiiej70 said:


> T-50 have canards? Dude.. that plane aint stealth anymore..



Where do you see canards?

There are no canards in T-50


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## Prowler




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## Prowler

---------- Post added at 06:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:31 PM ----------




xMustiiej70 said:


> T-50 have canards? Dude.. that plane aint stealth anymore..



It's LERX not a Canard


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## marcos98




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## xMustiiej70

Ooh sorry didn't noticed it was LERX


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## Kinetic

Definitely looks better than Raptor. Look at the control surfaces here...

http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/301/t506w3u9700.jpg

Awesome. Russians always designed more maneuverable aircraft than others but with combination of stealth, 4 radars, 360 deg sensors and HMDS with new long range and medium range weapons it will rule the sky.


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## SpArK

xMustiiej70 said:


> T-50 have canards? Dude.. that plane aint stealth anymore..



OMG!!! is it???? will inform that to builders and they will rectify it soon. Thanks anyway.


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## xMustiiej70

Kinetic said:


> Definitely looks better than Raptor. Look at the control surfaces here...
> 
> http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/301/t506w3u9700.jpg
> 
> Awesome. Russians always designed more maneuverable aircraft than others but with combination of stealth, 4 radars, 360 deg sensors and HMDS with new long range and medium range weapons *it will rule in my dream*.



Fix'd for ya.


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## Kinetic

xMustiiej70 said:


> Fix'd for ya.



*Reported for trolling. *


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## xMustiiej70

Kinetic said:


> *Reported for trolling. *



Huh? reported for trolling?
I dont get it?
Anyways.. you should not underestimate f22.
which is operational now.
and rules the sky already.
while the pak fa is still in develop.
Also.. how do you it will rule the sky?
Your just saying it will rule the sky..
and then you leave...


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## SpArK

xMustiiej70 said:


> Huh? reported for trolling?
> I dont get it?
> Anyways.. you should not underestimate f22.
> which is operational now.
> and rules the sky already.
> while the pak fa is still in develop.
> Also.. how do you it will rule the sky?
> Your just saying it will rule the sky..
> and then you leave...



All you care for is trolling. At least do it in proper English so that we can understand something .


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## ptldM3

Ahheeemmm this is a picture thread, lets keep in that way.


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## xMustiiej70

BENNY said:


> All you care for is trolling. At least do it in proper English so that we can understand something .



Ok.. if you cant understand what i just wrote there.
Just stop talking to me then.
and for god sake.
tell me please.
WHO THE **** WAS TALKING TO YOU?


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## genetic_nomad

xMustiiej70 said:


> Ok.. if you cant understand what i just wrote there.
> Just stop talking to me then.
> and for god sake.
> tell me please.
> WHO THE **** WAS TALKING TO YOU?



dude you're the one who quoted him in the first place


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## SpArK

Guys lets ignore the *irritant*s and get on with the thread.


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## xMustiiej70

genetic_nomad said:


> dude you're the one who quoted him in the first place



oh yeah? show me where.

---------- Post added at 06:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:23 PM ----------




BENNY said:


> Guys lets ignore the *irritant*s and get on with the thread.



Why are you running away?
You come with such an idiotic comment to me.
while i wasn't talking to you.
and now i ask again.
who was talking to you?


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## genetic_nomad

ptldM3 said:


> Ahheeemmm this is a picture thread, lets keep in that way.



agreed, thanks bud


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## SpArK

xMustiiej70 said:


> oh yeah? show me where.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 06:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:23 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> Why are you running away?
> You come with such an idiotic comment to me.
> while i wasn't talking to you.
> and now i ask again.
> who was talking to you?



Please do something else or something nice. We are here in a PAK-FA photo thread. There are a lot of threads you can very well "*contribute*". Please let the poor Russians and Indians get on with the PAK_FA discussions.

Thank you.


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## jha

these many radars will obviously increase its chance to detect from a larger range but if ever it comes face to face with raptor then dont you think raptor will also have chance to detect it its radar off mode....

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## xMustiiej70

Truth hurts.


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## wali87

A good aircraft. But its way too crude and kinda raw in design to be compared to an F-22. Could someone put a picture of an F-22 along side a PAK-FA. PAKFA still has a long way togo to be able to be at par with an F-22. 8 years? by that time USAF will have upgraded the F-22 or a new aircraft would be out with much better advanced technology. 

Looking at the track record, Russian technology has always been less perfectedd and modern compared to western. Mainly because russians have always preferred having LArger numbers. Quantity instead of Quality.


THIS IS WHAT STEALTH LOOKS LIKE. Smoooootthh


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## indiarocks

awesome beast....hope to see it soon in indian skies....................


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## wali87

A good aircraft. But its way too crude and kinda raw in design to be compared to an F-22. Could someone put a picture of an F-22 along side a PAK-FA. PAKFA still has a long way togo to be able to be at par with an F-22. 8 years? by that time USAF will have upgraded the F-22 or a new aircraft would be out with much better advanced technology. 

Looking at the track record, Russian technology has always been less perfectedd and modern compared to western. Mainly because russians have always preferred having LArger numbers. Quantity instead of Quality.


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## ptldM3

xMustiiej70 said:


> Truth hurts.



Well it's good that your're not in denial.


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## Kinetic

xMustiiej70 said:


> Huh? reported for trolling?
> I dont get it?
> Anyways.. you should not underestimate f22.
> which is operational now.
> and rules the sky already.
> while the pak fa is still in develop.
> Also.. how do you it will rule the sky?
> Your just saying it will rule the sky..
> and then you leave...



*Instead of modifying my post you could reply like this before. You could reply with facts that 'for these reasons F-22 is better' but you didn't. *

I posted about PAK FA superiority against F-22 many times in many threads. Its over.

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## Prowler

wali87 said:


> A good aircraft. But its way too crude and kinda raw in design to be compared to an F-22. Could someone put a picture of an F-22 along side a PAK-FA. PAKFA still has a long way togo to be able to be at par with an F-22. 8 years? by that time USAF will have upgraded the F-22 or a new aircraft would be out with much better advanced technology.
> 
> Looking at the track record, Russian technology has always been less perfectedd and modern compared to western. Mainly because russians have always preferred having LArger numbers. Quantity instead of Quality.


 
Well they did once have the motto of "Quantity better than Quality" this is now rewritten the newer Sukhoi's clearly prove it the MiG however maybe still have this Motto in their pockets..and so does PRC they follow this to the core..

And Russia and the West is very much on the same level with technology if you look from a neutral POV the rest is just influence of propaganda.

---------- Post added at 12:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:11 AM ----------




ptldM3 said:


> Well it's good that your're not in denial.


----------



## Kinshuk

Can someone tell me if GOI and Russia have signed all the necessary documents, with regards to PAKFA development?


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## Prowler

jha said:


> these many radars will obviously increase its chance to detect from a larger range but if ever it comes face to face with raptor then dont you think raptor will also have chance to detect it its radar off mode....



For the F-22 to be invisible I guess it's radar must be switched off and should be complemented using AWACS...But however the PAK-FA might have the upper hand in the situation if both fighters have the radars turned on...if the planes have both of their radars turned off then the Raptor is at dis-advantage with the IRST on the FA.


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## ptldM3

wali87 said:


> A good aircraft. But its way too crude and kinda raw in design to be compared to an F-22.



It's also a prototype.



wali87 said:


> Could someone put a picture of an F-22 along side a PAK-FA. PAKFA still has a long way togo to be able to be at par with an F-22. 8 years? by that time USAF will have upgraded the F-22 or a new aircraft would be out with much better advanced technology.
> Looking at the track record, *Russian technology has always been less perfectedd and modern compared to western*. Mainly because russians have always preferred having LArger numbers. Quantity instead of Quality.



Oh brother....OLD Mig-29s piloted by Germans dominated F-16s and F-18 in mock combat, SU-30's with older Russian radars were able to pick up F-15s at the same time the F-15s pick the SU-30s, and most important The SU-30 scored kills against F-15s. It was the opinion of a US pilots that the SU-30 is a little better than legacy US fighters (not counting F-22).

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## wali87

Why don't the Russians ever come up with an original design. Everything the make seems to be a copy of the West in one way or the other. comparing the two aircrafts, its pretty evident that the PAK-FA design is immensely influenced by the Raptor.


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## ptldM3

wali87 said:


> Why don't the Russians ever come up with an original design. Everything the make seems to be a copy of the West in one way or the other. comparing the two aircrafts, its pretty evident that the PAK-FA design is immensely influenced by the Raptor.



How so? Because of V-tails? Sorry there is no going around that, is it because of the slanted nose? Sorry, again there is no going around that either. The pak-fa and the F-22 share completely different fuselages. And like i mentioned the design of the nose and tails is nessessary for 'stealth' but even then the F-22 has a 'droopy' nose while the pak-fa has a flat nose and the V-tails on the pak-fa are spaced differently as are the nozzles.

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## Prowler

wali87 said:


> Why don't the Russians ever come up with an original design. Everything the make seems to be a copy of the West in one way or the other. comparing the two aircrafts, its pretty evident that the PAK-FA design is immensely influenced by the Raptor.



Well what is it about the PAK-FA that you think is similar to the F-22 Raptor? Compare the control surfaces of both these Aircrafts and then talk buddy..even the shape and size too is much different..you may feel that they are similar but if you look closer then you will see that they have nothing in common other than the fact that both belong to the same generation.

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## nForce

wali87 said:


> A good aircraft. But its way too crude and kinda raw in design to be compared to an F-22. Could someone put a picture of an F-22 along side a PAK-FA. PAKFA still has a long way togo to be able to be at par with an F-22. 8 years? by that time USAF will have upgraded the F-22 or a new aircraft would be out with much better advanced technology.
> 
> Looking at the track record, Russian technology has always been less perfectedd and modern compared to western. Mainly because russians have always preferred having LArger numbers. Quantity instead of Quality.



hmm too crude in design???can we all here can have some idea on the basis of which u declare it to be crude plz??...And comparison with f22??? im also waiting for your version of comparison....

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## Prowler

ptldM3 said:


> How so? Because of V-tails? Sorry there is no going around that, is it because of the slanted nose? Sorry, again there is no going around that either. The pak-fa and the F-22 share completely different fuselages. And like i mentioned the design of the nose and tails is nessessary for 'stealth' but even then the F-22 has a 'droopy' nose while the pak-fa has a flat nose and the V-tails on the pak-fa are spaced differently as are the nozzles.



Buddy heard on some forum that the Engine inlets are gonna have Plasma stealth to absorb/deflect radar...what do you think?


----------



## ptldM3

Prowler said:


> Buddy heard on some forum that the Engine inlets are gonna have Plasma stealth to absorb/deflect radar...what do you think?



I don't know anything about it.


----------



## Prowler

ptldM3 said:


> I don't know anything about it.



Never mind ..but keep us posted mate


----------



## Kinshuk

Arey geniuses, please answer my question also. It's on the previous page.


----------



## jha

even i had mentioned plasma stealth when i gave a seminar on Stealth tech. in my engineering days. there was no FGFA at scene and when seminar was over , HOD came to me and asked if this was possible and i said NO at that time.
and even now i stand by it..this is way too cool to be possible and the kind of power it will need is just not managable on an aircraft .

However i would like to proved wrong by new mujahids gladly..


----------



## jha

Kinshuk said:


> Arey geniuses, please answer my question also. It's on the previous page.



imo some agreements were done during putin's visit...anyways you can always dig up old news papers..


----------



## KEETARP

Kinshuk said:


> Can someone tell me if GOI and Russia have signed all the necessary documents, with regards to PAKFA development?



No not at all , not a single document has been signed . 
Problem is Russians want to offer A Phased manner JV that is JV for diff phases of development of FGFA not a single JV . 
This is what is holding up Signing . 

And believe me Russians are quite correct - It has taken up many Years of funding and development by pooling all Russian brains , in each and every sector of Aircraft . 
Whether its - 

RADAR by NIIP and NIIR
RAM, STEALTH composites by Unitedware of UAC
FLAT NOZZLE for ENGINES by SALYUT or SATURN
etc . 
All these components have been either funded by respective company or a Joint deal be Russian Gov and Company

Its all and all best Russian tech so far , so if India wants to walk away just by signing an Agreement . Not happening so easily. 
Bcoz if its done , then Indian Engineers would learn in span of 10 years what Russians have learned in 100 years and Russian aero-space industry would be dead

India would sign deal for each phase and component , eventually but when Only Time will tell .

Second thing is ,
some End-user monitoring and IP protection issue which Russians want similar to Indo-US agreement ,


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## gogbot

Kinshuk said:


> Can someone tell me if GOI and Russia have signed all the necessary documents, with regards to PAKFA development?



i have some links from PIB Press Release

PIB Press Release



> Thursday, October 18, 2007
> 
> India and Russia sign landmark agreement for joint development and production of fifth generation fighter aircraft
> 
> TALKS TO EXTEND MILITARY COOPERATION AGREEMENT BEYOND 2010 WITH RUSSIA HAS STARTED: ANTONY
> 20:4 IST
> *India and Russia today signed a landmark Intergovernmental Agreement for the joint development and joint production of the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA), marking the beginning of cooperation in the development of state of the art new technology major weapon systems. The agreement was signed by the Secretary Defence Production Mr KP Singh and Deputy Director of the Federal Service for Foreign Military Cooperation Mr. Vyacheslav Dzirkaln in the presence of the Defence Minister Mr. AK Antony and his Russian counterpart Mr. Anatoly Serdyukov in Moscow today. The watershed agreement was signed at the conclusion of the Seventh Meeting of the India- Russia Intergovernmental Commission for Military and Technical Cooperation.* Mr Antony and Mr Serdyukov also signed a Protocol which envisages a 'new strategic relationship' based on greater interaction at various operational levels.
> 
> Speaking to reporters shortly after the signing ceremony, Mr Antony said the two countries have agreed to strengthen and expand relations in all areas especially in the areas of joint exercises and greater cooperation in the field of Research and Development. Now the frequency and level of exercises will be higher, Mr. Antony said. He said talkswith Russia have started to extend the Military Cooperation Agreement beyond 2010. The pact had been signed during the Russian President Mr. Vladimir Putin's visit to India in 2000.
> 
> *The Defence Minister described the Agreement on FGFA as a 'major landmark' and said that the Indo-Russian relationship is on a trajectory to reach new heights.* He hoped that the two countries would soon sign an Intergovernmental Agreement on co-development and co-production of Multi-Role Transport Aircraft. Mr. Antony expressed satisfaction at the outcome of discussions on other important projects e.g., supply and licensed production of T-90 tanks, SU-30 MKI aircraft and other strategic issues. He admitted that there has been a delay in the delivery of the repaired and refurbished aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov alongwith supply of deck-based fighter aircraft MiG-29-K and said it was decided that some more studies by technical groups would be done to go through the details. He appreciated the efforts made by the Russian side to resolve issues relating to life cycle support of equipment of Russian origin.
> 
> On the question of Integrity Pact, he said, the objective is neither to create problems for anybody nor to favour anybody. What India wants is transparency in all defence purchases. In the past, there have been a lot of controversies. We want to avoid it. We want speedy modernisation but with transparency. Integrity Pact is one of the safeguards for transparency.
> 
> The Defence Minister returns home tomorrow.
> 
> Sitanshu Kar



PIB Press Release



> Friday, December 28, 2007
> 
> JOINT DEVELOPMENT OF FIFTH GENERATION FIGHTER AIRCRAFT
> 
> *India and Russia signed a landmark Intergovernmental Agreement for the joint development and joint production of the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA), marking the beginning of cooperation in the development of state of the art new technology major weapon systems.* The agreement was signed by the Secretary Defence Production Mr KP Singh and Deputy Director of the Federal Service for Foreign Military Cooperation Mr. Vyacheslav Dzirkaln in the presence of the Defence Minister Mr. AK Antony and his Russian counterpart Mr. Anatoly Serdyukov in Moscow. The watershed agreement was signed at the conclusion of the Seventh Meeting of the India- Russia Intergovernmental Commission for Military and Technical Cooperation.



PIB Press Release



> Friday, October 09, 2009 Ministry of Defence
> 
> 
> Antony to go on a Three-Day Visit to Russia
> 
> EXTENSION OF DEFENCE COOPERATION AGREEMENT BY TEN MORE YEARS TO TOP THE AGENDA
> 
> 12:48 IST
> 
> The Defence Minister Shri AK Antony will be going on a three day official visit to Moscow on 13 October to attend the 9th meeting of the India-Russia Inter Governmental Commission on Military Technical Cooperation (IRIGC-MTC). The IRIGC-MTC meets annually, alternately in India and Russia, at the level of the Defence Ministers of the two countries to review and discuss matters relating to the bilateral defence cooperation between the two countries. The meeting to be held on 14-15 October will be chaired by Shri Antony from the Indian side and by the Russian Defence Minister, Mr. AE Serdyukov from the Russian side.
> 
> The extension of the existing India-Russia Long Term Inter-Governmental Agreement on the programme for Military Technical Cooperation for a further 10 years, from 2011 to 2020, will be the main focus of discussions during the meeting of the commission. India and Russia had concluded an agreement in December 1988 which envisaged a programme for defence cooperation between the two countries up to the year 2010. The extension of this programme beyond 2010 has been under consideration and this matter had also been discussed by the Prime Minister Dr Manmohan Singh during his meeting with President Putin in Moscow in 2007. Both sides have, since, been working towards finalizing the programme for defence cooperation beyond 2011. The anticipated discussions at the commission level would pave the way for conclusion of the Agreement during Dr Singhs forthcoming visit to Russia in December 2009 for the Summit meeting between him and President Medvedev.
> 
> In addition to the consideration of new areas for potential defence cooperation between the two countries, both sides will also be focussing on ways to step up progress in important on-going projects which are expected to reach significant stages of activity in the coming years. The indigenous production of the Russian origin T-90 S tanks at the Heavy Vehicles Factory, Avadi, under license from the Russian side will be one of the major on-going projects, in which the Russian side is providing technical and product support for the indigenous production of tanks. The modernisation of the SU 30 MKI aircraft is also expected to come up for discussion in the Commissions meeting. The aircraft, contracted in 1996, are due for overhaul shortly and the Russia side have offered an upgrade of the aircraft with incorporation of the latest technologies during the major overhaul.
> 
> The continuation of the India Russia Joint Venture BrahMos is also likely to be discussed, in the context of on-going discussion for the development of the next generation hypersonic Cruise Missiles  BrahMos-2 and the on-going proposal to coordinate the BrahMos with the SU 30 MKI.
> 
> Among the major new projects which will be high in priorities of the Indian agenda for bilateral defence cooperation between the two countries, will be projects for joint design and development of the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) and of the Multi-Role Transport Aircraft (MTA). *The co-development and co-production of the FGFA with Sukhoi Design Bureau Russia has been progressing, with several rounds of discussion already completed to finalize the technical requirements. During discussions in the meeting of the Commission, Shri Antony would highlight New Delhis interest in ensuring that the development phase of the FGFA is completed by 2016, as originally anticipated and that induction of the aircraft into the IAF can start by 2017. *
> 
> Both sides will also review the progress on the MTA, on which the Inter-Governmental Agreement had been signed during the visit of Dr Manmohan Singhs to Moscow in November 2007. Both sides have been discussing the formation of the Joint Venture company which would execute the project involving design, development and production of the Medium Transport Aircraft in the 15-20 tonne class to meet the requirements of the Russian and Indian Armed Forces. Both sides are likely to conclude the Agreement to form the JVC shortly.
> 
> The Defence Ministers delegation to the IRIGC-MTC will include the Defence Secretary Shri Pradeep Kumar, Secretary (Defence Production) Shri RK Singh, DG (Acquisition) Shri SK Sharma, senior officials of DRDO, Ministry and the Armed Forces. A Protocol incorporating the various aspects of current and future Indo-Russian bilateral defence cooperation will be signed at the conclusion of the meeting.
> 
> Sitanshu Kar



PIB Press Release



> Thursday, October 15, 2009
> Ministry of Defence
> 
> 
> India, Russia to ink two major agreements on Defence Cooperation
> 12:47 IST
> Two major agreements to boost Defence Cooperation between India and Russia are likely to be signed during the Prime Minister Dr. Manmohan Singhs visit to Moscow later this year. Decks for the signing of the two agreements were cleared today during the ongoing visit of Defence Minister Shri AK Antony to Moscow. The first agreement will be on extending the Military Technical Cooperation for ten years from 2011 to 2020 and the second relates to After- Sales Product Support for Defence Equipment of Russian origin.
> 
> The outlines for the two agreements were hammered out during the 9th Meeting of the India-Russia Inter-Governmental Commission on Military Technical Cooperation (IRIGC-MTC) which concluded in Moscow today. The two-day meeting was presided over by Shri Antony and his Russian counterpart Mr. Anatoly Serdyukov.
> 
> The meeting reviewed the status of various ongoing bilateral defence cooperation projects. *The Commission also reviewed the status of two major projects for joint design and development of the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) and the Multi-Role Transport Aircraft (MRTA). Both the Defence Ministers expressed the hope that the recent rounds of consultations between technical experts on both sides would result in greater progress in these projects. The Russian side assured of continuing technical support and technology transfer in accordance with the agreed schedules for the indigenous production of T-90-S tanks and SU-30MKI fighter jets in India. Shri Antony stressed the need to ensure that there were no slippages in these projects. *
> 
> On the sale of the aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov, both sides agreed that the cost negotiations would continue to find a mutually acceptable solution. Issues relating to defence supplies in a number of other projects were also reviewed in detail by the Commission. The Russian side responded positively to Indias request to expedite proposals for setting up facilities for modernisation, repair and overhaul of military aircraft including MiG-29-Upgrade in India.
> 
> In his opening remarks to the meeting yesterday, Shri Antony said India and Russia have an enduring strategic partnership and defence ties. He described Russia as a time tested and dependable friend of India. Shri Antony emphasized that the Indian Government was determined to strengthen the bond in all areas of bilateral relations. He noted that over the years defence relations between India and Russia have evolved from a simple buyer-seller relationship to a broadbased partnership where both countries are involved in joint design, development and production of defence equipment. Taking note of the structured mechanisms for defence interactions with Russia, Shri Antony said that Russia is the only country with which India has such a well established multi-tiered mechanism which has contributed to the strengthening of bilateral ties.
> 
> The Indian delegation to the two-day IRIGC-MTC meeting included the Defence Secretary Shri Pradeep Kumar, Secretary (Defence Production) Shri Raj Kumar Singh and other senior officials of the Ministry of Defence and the Armed Forces.
> 
> NA/PK/RAJ



PIB Press Release



> Joint Manufacturing of Aircraft
> 17:27 IST
> /LOK SABHA/
> 
> India and Russia signed Inter Governmental Agreements (IGA) for Co-development and Co-Production for Multi Role Transport Aircraft (MTA) on November 12, 2007 and for a Prospective Multi Role Fighter Aircraft (PMF) on October 18, 2007.
> 
> *The percentage share of investment by the Indian side towards development will be 50 % each for both aircraft. The Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) would be comparable to the best of its type/class in the world. The project would be set up in India, as well as in Russia. MTA & FGFA, both are design and development programmes. It is estimated that the aircraft would be inducted by the Indian Air Force in the 13th Plan period. *
> 
> This information was given by Minister of State for Defence Shri MM Pallam Raju in a written reply to Shri Tufani Saroj in Lok Sabha today.
> 
> PK / RAJ


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## KEETARP

No , JV is still not signed between HAL and UAC , companies responsible for development and production .

Mark it- Only an intergovernmental agreement on "understanding to build together is in place.

^^^^^^^^ All the above links are old , either 2007 or 2009 . Let me give links from 2010 -
Russia to make 1,000 stealth jets, eyes India deal | Top News | Reuters
Imp extract from Feb 2010 link-


> *Pogosyan said an agreement on joint output of the jet with India was still in the works and did not say when a deal might be signed*



Another one from March2010 Link-
8ak - Indian Defence News


> Another crucial contract to be finalised will be joint development of Multi-role transport aircraft (MTA), which is to be developed by Hindustan aeronautics limited and Russias United Aircraft Corporation. *A general agreement on the joint development of fifth generation fighter aircraft by 2016 is also on the cards*.



*Read my Post above about the phased JV* , Here is another link confirming that 
Putin Visits India to Cement Defence Ties | India Defence Online


> *A Russian teams visit for the joint development of the fifth generation fighter aircraft, with advanced stealth features, is also being carried out this month. The fighter aircraft will have super-cruise capability, thrust-vectoring and integrated avionics and they will be expensive. A preliminary design contract cost of $332 million has been conveyed by the Russians, with the development cost of the advanced fighter reaching over $6 billion exclusive of the cost of production*.



*As you see a first contract for 332mill will be signed in future *when discussion conclude about IAF req and workshare of HAL . India wants 25-50% workshare while Russia wants India to have not more than 15% Work-share .
Further deal will be of 6Bill JV in total split into phases.

Currently 3 things are holding up -
Work-share Agreement , India wants 25-50% while Russians want to give only 15% work-share
IP protection issues like Americans have with india
Joint phased development while India wants just one Agreement.


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## ptldM3



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## ptldM3

Photoshoped in Indian colors

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## KEETARP

Is it my eyes dillusion or Fuselage from Top looks slightly dipped in middle and then up again . Sauccer shape or what we call Angled Concave shape .

Holy-Sduct


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## Kompromat

Can someone post some pictures of T-50's weapons bay ?


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## sancho

Black Blood said:


> Can someone post some pictures of T-50's weapons bay ?


As far as I know there are no official pics of them open yet, only from a Su 47 that tested some internal weapon bays, but it is not clear if these will be used in FGFA too.


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## sohan

Internal weapons bay is a definite in.


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## sohan




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## Kompromat

From these pics it seems that payload capacity would be limited , lets see if Russians do a little more work on this.


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## Icarus

WOW................This thing is a beast, It looks so damn dangerous and gorgeous at the same time. 
I'm confused, what will a pilot do when he encounters one in the skies, admire it's beauty or take action against it ?


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## Haanzo

you are totally wrong on this ....pak-fa wont be using regular missiles used on other fighters like the 29 and the mki ...its getting whole new weapons load which will be shorter in length and a bit larger in diameter so its not gonna have r-73 and the archer


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## The Patriot

Russian designs are sexy....just look at MKI, PAK FA, SU 37 and Su 47...They look awesome and no plane can match them in their beauty.


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## gambit

Kakgeta said:


> WOW................This thing is a beast, It looks so damn dangerous and gorgeous at the same time.
> I'm confused, what will a pilot do when he encounters one in the skies, admire it's beauty or take action against it ?


The F-22 pilot will admire the fireball it create when it is mated by an AIM-120.


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## satishkumarcsc

Or the PAK FA pilot might see the F 22 annihilated by the R 77m1.


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## Bagee

satishkumarcsc said:


> Or the PAK FA pilot might see the F 22 annihilated by the R 77m1.



what an answer mate f22 is not so sexy i think and future PAKFA will surely see so improvements in their internal weapon bay and the air intakes for the very least


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## Sri

In Defunct humanity blog, its mentioned that 14 new missiles are ready for testing in coming years for Pak fa 
Defunct Humanity: How to win in the missiles race. Part 1.


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## satishkumarcsc

Bagee said:


> what an answer mate f22 is not so sexy i think and future PAKFA will surely see so improvements in their internal weapon bay and the air intakes for the very least



you also missed the new engine in development.


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## Just Yash

gambit said:


> The F-22 pilot will admire the fireball it create when it is mated by an AIM-120.



we will see in future....but hey usa already stop producing F-22

If it's soo kickass fighter then why uncle sam is not producing it?

so please stop BS about it and take your REMAINING F-22 some where else.

Thanks


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## warton

how much is this bird?

is it very expensive like raptor?


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## gambit

warton said:


> how much is this bird?
> 
> is it very expensive like raptor?


No...Considerably less expensive. But then...You get what you paid for and...Losing a fight is much more expensive...

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## rastor

gambit said:


> No...Considerably less expensive. But then...You get what you paid for and...Losing a fight is much more expensive...



I heard somewhere that PAK-FA's RCS is roughly equivalent to the F-18. Do you have any comments on that?


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## booo

^ Whats with american arrogance? - Yahoo! Answers


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## warton

it is like f18?

oh god, are you kidding?


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## gubbi

gambit said:


> The F-22 pilot will admire the fireball it create when it is mated by an AIM-120.



Gambit. I really do admire your through knowledge and look forward to your invaluable inputs. However, being blinded by nationalistic and patriotic bravado is uncalled for and seriously unnecessary from a seasoned pro like you.

You very well know that both these aircraft belong to different classes. Both were designed with different specifications for different roles. I shall not elaborate further because I dont know the exact specs.

However, it is very unlikely that these aircraft will ever face each other in anger. You would also be aware that F-22 is deployed only by the USAF, that too in limited numbers. PAK-FA satisfies the requirements of two airforces - Russian AF and Indian AF. These airforces are not exactly allies - in the real sense of the term, but neither are they enemies! 

Its highly unlikely that any other nation's airforces will be allowed to field these aircraft, let alone be able to afford these aircraft in considerable numbers to be considered a threat.

That being said, there is then the factor of pilot training. USAF, RuAF and IAF are highly professional forces and devote considerable time to train pilots and tactics. Its not exactly a cake walk from any perspective.

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## xMustiiej70

PAK-FA seems overrated to me.
Today I decided that it looks overrated to me.
Just because of the 4 radars people call it the best.
Why?
I mean maybe 4 radars is not even enough.. or strong enough to detect the stealthness of f35.


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## ptldM3

gambit said:


> No...Considerably less expensive. But then...You get what you paid for and...Losing a fight is much more expensive...



Sukhoi isn't a purely private company, thus unlike Lockheed Martin they wont charge an arm and a leg. People also forget that it is cheaper to manufacture aircraft in Russia, so if we figure the pak-fa will be a 100 million dollar aircraft just imagine how much it would cost if it was built by an American company. 



gambit said:


> The F-22 pilot will admire the fireball it create when it is mated by an AIM-120.



Stop trolling 



rastor said:


> I heard somewhere that PAK-FA's RCS is roughly equivalent to the F-18. Do you have any comments on that?



Those reports are un confirmed rumors started by a blogger.

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## ptldM3

xMustiiej70 said:


> PAK-FA seems overrated to me.
> Today I decided that it looks overrated to me.
> Just because of the 4 radars people call it the best.
> Why?
> I mean maybe 4 radars is not even enough.. or strong enough to detect the stealthness of f35.



What do you know? Lets cut the crap, if it was Turkish you wouln't say the things that you are saying.


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## WAQAS119

ptldM3 said:


> What do you know? Lets cut the crap, if it was Turkish you wouln't say the things that you are saying.



but you are russian thus saying so...


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## samika

ptldM3 said:


> What do you know? Lets cut the crap, if it was Turkish you wouln't say the things that you are saying.



I like your posts.. Very smart and comprehensive


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## ptldM3

WAQAS119 said:


> but you are russian thus saying so...



Yes i am, but you don't see me bashing the F-35 or F-22, acually the opposite.


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## WAQAS119

ptldM3 said:


> Yes i am, but you don't see me bashing the F-35 or F-22, acually the opposite.



actually F35 and F22 is some other class,,, no one can even think of bashing it.


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## ptldM3

WAQAS119 said:


> actually F35 and F22 is some other class,,, no one can even think of bashing it.



What puts them in another class? If Russian aircraft can hold there own in mock dog fights against US fighters and in some cases dominating them what makes you think the pak-fa is out of its league? No one is saying that the pak-fa is some mythical machine that will go unmatched for the next 30 years but to say it's out of its league is plain foolish.

And why can no one bash them? No one knows anything about them. Likewise, know one knows anything about the pak-fa, so anyone that bashes either one is just doing so out of hate.


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## genetic_nomad

ptldM3 said:


> What puts them in another class? If Russian aircraft can hold there own in mock dog fights against US fighters and in some cases dominating them what makes you think the pak-fa is out of its league?
> 
> And why can noone bash them? Know one knows anything about them. Likewise know one knows anything about the pak-fa.



relax dude let the time come. I for one have genuine confidence in Russian engineering talent. good luck to you guys


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## KS

Ok i ve to give one thing to the Russkies...

They make the sexiest looking places....nothing comes close to them in ...atleast looks and maneovarability..


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## KEETARP

WAQAS119 said:


> actually F35 and F22 is some other class,,, no one can even think of bashing it.



Really , Let us all learn from your Knowledge then .
What is the Technology that makes F35,F22 class apart from Pak-Fa . 

No need to flame , just keep it Technical discussion only .


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## KS

LT.PRATEEK said:


> Really , Let us all learn from your Knowledge then .
> What is the Technology that makes F35,F22 class apart from Pak-Fa .
> 
> No need to flame , just keep it Technical discussion only .



Lt Saab....the only thing that is not right with the PAKFA is it manufactured by the Russians and Indians are collaborating in it...


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## greatsequence

russians make very good fighters and this plane will definitely rival the best. I hope it becomes a success story.

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## Parashuram1

Gentlemen, I have heard a report speaking of Russia offering Brazil to join the PAK-FA programme alongside India. Could anyone here contribute more regarding that topic? I'd be grateful.

I can see that Russia has definitely risen as compared to the 90s. Very impressive design indeed. Their desire to compete and challenge the very best in the world of aviation and weapons engineering makes their weapons worth taking a look. 

I am not surprised it takes NATO brigade sub-contract dozens of advertisement companies focus on their product to let the world know of them, when it comes to rivalling Russian technology. Since the JSF and the Raptor have been given enough publicity and liberally money has been spent on advertising them, while considering the historic secrecy behind Russia's aircraft; I think that this time Moscow and Delhi should invite their top advertisement companies to launch into an advertisement drive and let the world know more about this aircraft.

You two could seriously make excellent exports out of these---albeit much downgraded versions to the one that both you must be fielding in your air forces.

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## sancho

Parashuram1 said:


> Gentlemen, I have heard a report speaking of Russia offering Brazil to join the PAK-FA programme alongside India. Could anyone here contribute more regarding that topic? I'd be grateful....



That is not new, reports about that has come up with the offer of Su 35 in the Brazilian competition, as a combined deal with Su 35 now and a partnership in Pak Fa for future. However, the Su 35 is out of that competition long ago and till now there is no sign that Brazil is interested in 5. gen fighters at for now.


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## xMustiiej70

ptldM3 said:


> What do you know? Lets cut the crap, if it was Turkish you wouln't say the things that you are saying.



if it was turkish it wouldn't been overrated.
but underestimated.


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## jagjitnatt

xMustiiej70 said:


> if it was turkish it wouldn't been overrated.
> but underestimated.



Turkey is not being overestimated. But you have been overestimating a little too much regarding Turkey. Sure its a great nation, but when comparing to India, China, Russia, or even Pakistan it is gonna be tough.

Just tech superiority is not the solution. You need to have the man power, experience, terrain advantage, climate advantage, ally support, weapon stockpile, manufacturing capability, economic might, capable industry, numerical advantage also.


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## xMustiiej70

But if I compare turkey and india..
I only see man power more on india.
And plus if theres a full scale war(hope not) the people that get into army arent trained.
but just civils with guns.
SO i think man power dont really play a decisive role.
Ofcourse it will if you have some couple millions of population.
But theres 100million turks all over the world.
With over 50million outside turkey.
Many are in europe and USA.
Where they have better health and education then in india.
weapon stockpile is more on india.
But how advanced are they?
and we got ally.
and many of them.
Turks have exriences since before christus.
Terrain advantage are common in turkey.
They used decisiver rol in the ottoman periods.
and india has them too.
economic is way better on his.
manufacturing is also more on us.
Industry the same.
But india has more(ofcourse).
So i really dont see why comparing turkey to india is tough.
or even pakistan.
or even china and russia.


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## jagjitnatt

xMustiiej70 said:


> But if I compare turkey and india..
> I only see man power more on india.
> And plus if theres a full scale war(hope not) the people that get into army arent trained.
> but just civils with guns.
> SO i think man power dont really play a decisive role.



Just compare the troops in both countries.

Turkey - 1 million (540,000 active)
India - 4.5 million (1.4 million active)

Thats a huge difference. Take into account the experience India has and its a disaster for Turkey isn't it?

In scale of full scale war, Turkey will run out of soldiers, so it will have to employ civils with guns as you say, but India will have enough *trained *soldiers to do the job. And don't tell me that the whole nation would be fighting. Only troops fight. Civilians can not fight.




> weapon stockpile is more on india.
> But how advanced are they?


very advanced. India uses some of the best missiles, frigates, destroyers, aircraft, tanks, SAMs in the region.


> and we got ally.
> and many of them.
> Turks have exriences since before christus.


what matters more is how many are willing to support and fight for you in case of a war. India has Russia and Israel as its greatest allies. Not to mention great relations with NATO countries that support you.


> So i really dont see why comparing turkey to india is tough.
> or even pakistan.
> or even china and russia.



Comparing Turkey to India, Russia, Pak, China is not sensible. Turkey is not militarily very active. It doesn't need a powerful military, hence diverts its funds to economic and social causes, whereas in India, billions are spent on arms procurement. So there is no match.

Also experience is something that matters a lot. Indians and Pakistanis have an experience of all types of warfare, on all types of terrain, be it plains, mountains, desserts or even jungles in all climatic conditions from -30 C to 50 C.


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## xMustiiej70

Man you aint know anything.
Turkey is already a super power by CIA.
We are going to attack and capture aegean islands and sea.
These greeks pisses us off.
And what if entire kurds 20milliom est. rebels and trying to take over turkey?
Have a look at PKK.
how about turkey-israel relationship.
India has only pakistan as bad relationship.
and how about?
we have the best frigates?
how about we have the best tanks?
how about we have the best non-nuclear sub?
how about we have the damn best airplane(f35 in a couple years)?
Turkey will dominate the air.
Thats no doubt.
Why would Turkey run out of soldiers?
Every turk HAVE to go to the military.
and serve for 15months and for non-turkey livers 5weeks and optional of 15months.
So turks are warriors.
And seriously..
Just go to google.. or youtube videos..
and look at equipment of indian soldiers..
and their discipline.. and compare them to the turkish ones..
Which seems more skilled..?
Turkey is known for their skills and best discipline(maybe after russia).
And what is NATO?
screw NATO..
or the EU.
We have azerbaijcan...
we have MANY other countries.. which is controlled by turks.
Do you know about the Turkish Union?
And dont tell me india gets backup from russia?
or even from israel?(which they cant afford)?
Turkey is not military active?
Are you kidding me?
We are fighting with our f16's over the aegean seas..
we get intercepted by ******* gayreeks.
and then we ******* fight at the mountains against the kurds.
we got ambushed and all that.
We have soldiers in afghanistan
and tell me.. wheres india fighting? NOW?
Our blackhawks get used ALOT.
What kind of exprience does india have..
nothing compared to turkish ones.
Turkish empires have captured totall of MORE then HALF of the WORLD.
Dont tell me we havent exprienced those climate.. and terrain issues..
more then india did.


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## jagjitnatt

xMustiiej70 said:


> Just go to google.. or *youtube videos.*.
> and look at equipment of indian soldiers..



You've found the *ultimate source*, no point discussing further. I rest my case.


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## xMustiiej70

Good very good.
Since videos are the most proofable sources.
You should rest your case.


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## Kinetic

xMustiiej70 said:


> Good very good.
> Since videos are the most proofable sources.
> You should rest your case.



Cut the crap. Turkey is not considered as neither military or economic power nowhere near Pakistan, forget India.

Turkey's economy is too small to be good.
Turkey's new systems are all copy of other's systems like MILGEM, T-129, tank etc.
Turkey is heavily dependent on US for military survival.
Turkey lacks the diplomatic power. 
India is listed in Global Firepower as the fourth most powerful nation, while Turkey is at number ten. 
If there is a fight between Turkey and India, Turkey will not survive a week. Even they don't have enough military power to survive with any of the nation more than one month. 


Above all Turkey is not comparable. Compare Turkey with Malaysia, Taiwan, Greece, Argentina, Ukraine, South Africa etc, don't go beyond that.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


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## Kinetic

There is no comparison between F-22 and F-35. They have complete different technologies. F-22 costs many times more than F-35 as they are both developed by same company and country. PAK FA is in the class of F-22, it was developed keeping F-22 in mind. Thats why they also call it Raptorski. Many time Russian designers compared it better that F-22 in almost all aspect.

PAK FA vs F-22 in general...

1) PAK FA has four AESA radars of two different bands both X and L band. F-22 has single X band radar. F-22's main radar has more T/R modules than PAK FA's main radar. 

2) Both aircrafts look structurally stealthy. 

3) PAK FA has 3D TVC while F-22 has 2D.

4) PAK FA has many more control surfaces than F-22. PAK has all moving vertical tail, LERX which F-22 doesn't.

5) PAK FA has better man machine interference than F-22. 

6) PAK FA has longer range sensors like OLS than F-22.

7) Max range, supercruise, altitude, top speed are almost same.


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## KEETARP

^^^^^^^ Most part is correct but ,
Some of the things in F22 are cutting Edge which will be difficult for Pak-Fa to match .

Like - *AN/ALR-94 Sensor*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-22_Raptor


> The AN/ALR-94 is a passive receiver system capable of detecting the radar signals in the environment. Composed of more than *30 antennas* smoothly blended into the wings and fuselage that provide all around coverage plus azimuth and elevation information in the forward sector, it is described by Tom Burbage, the former head of the F-22 program at Lockheed Martin, as "the most technically complex piece of equipment on the aircraft." *With greater range (250+ nmi) than the radar, it enables the F-22 to limit its own radar emission to preserve its stealth*. As a target approaches, the receiver can cue the AN/APG-77 radar to track the target with a narrow beam, which can be as focused down to 2&#176; by 2&#176; in azimuth and elevation.



*L3 DATA link*


> In 2007, tests by Northrop Grumman, Lockheed Martin, and L-3 Communications enabled the AESA system of a Raptor to act like a WiFi access point, able to *transmit data at 548 Megabit/sec and receive at Gigabit speed; this is far faster than the current Link 16 system used by US and allied aircraft, which transfers data at just over 1 Megabit/sec*





> 1)PAK FA has better man machine interference than F-22.


I *doubt* that (citation needed) ????



> PAK FA has longer range sensors like OLS than F-22


Putting IRST on F22 is not a big deal - considering F14 had it. But Reason behind it will be strategy and operational doctrine of F22
a) You need OLS ( FLIR/IRST ) if you are up for close range fight with cuing IR missile with it , May be USAF built F22 with confidence that it wont allow any Jet to even come close to it.
b)Frontal section radar return value might be coming in way of installing such a system , it does add an extra reflective planar surface.
c)Its other sensor AN/ALR-94 takes care of it pretty well , even if Enemy is operating in low power mode .



> PAK FA has 3D TVC while F-22 has 2D


That is past , Final Prototype will fly with Flat Nozzle so movement will be in *H* shape or 2D , so only aircraft to field 360 TVC will be only Mig35 or Su35


----------



## Kompromat

^ Can you tell me what is your source about F-22's actuall capabilities ??

As per my Information the F-22's Info available on the Internet is not entirely true.


----------



## Kompromat

gambit said:


> No...Considerably less expensive. But then...You get what you paid for and...Losing a fight is much more expensive...



No way gambit , Russians can deliver Ultra high technology , compareable to the Raptor on almost half of the price.


----------



## gambit

rastor said:


> I heard somewhere that PAK-FA's RCS is roughly equivalent to the F-18. Do you have any comments on that?


Too early to tell. When the F-117 was under development, the first thing Lockheed did was to verify the radar reflectivity of the faceting techniques, *THEN* came the absorber installation. It was no different for the F-22, but since the F-22 and F-35 uses far less absorbers -- leading edges -- verifying the additional RCS reduction with absorbers did not take much additional time. But for the sake of speculation, if the current body shaping put the PAK-FA's RCS into the F-18 Super Hornet's class, then once absorbers are installed, we can expect a reduction. How much? Who knows, but keep in mind that the F-22's current RCS figure is more dependent upon body shaping than from absorbers.

The most certain verification technique is a full scale production model radar anechoic chamber test...

Edwards Air Force Base - Media Search

Benefield Anechoic Facility - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


> Benefield Anechoic Facility (BAF) supports installed systems testing for avionics test programs requiring a large, shielded chamber with radio frequency (RF) absorption capability that simulates free space. This facility is located at the southwest side of the Edwards Air Force Base main base. *It is currently the world's largest anechoic chamber.*
> 
> Some aircraft tested at the BAF include:
> 
> * *F-22 Raptor*
> * C-130 Hercules
> * NC-130H
> * F-16 Fighting Falcon
> * B-1 Lancer
> * X-43A
> * MH-47 Chinook
> * V-22 Osprey



If you want to know what an 'anechoic' chamber feels like, find a very high-end audio facility, or your local university may have a small audio anechoic room to test speakers and microphones. It is a very eerie feeling in such a room. Everything you say are considerably less loud and if your companion turn away from you, normal conversation noise level will not apply. You will not hear him. In your current environment, the noise level is a composite of reflections off the walls and other structures, like your desk, chair and even another person. In an audio anechoic chamber, baffles drastically reduces those reflections, resulting in a quietness possible above 2000 meters altitude.

At Benefield, the walls are lined with cones of absorbers specific to EM freqs. Do we know what an SU-27 and its cousins look like to our radars? You can safely bet your annual salary. We have a few Sukhoi and MIG products in our possession. If the PAK-FA is sold to any US allies, have no doubt we will know what it will look like on our radars, ground and air.


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## KEETARP

Black Blood said:


> ^ Can you tell me what is your source about F-22's actuall capabilities ??
> 
> As per my Information the F-22's Info available on the Internet is not entirely true.



Source will always be second hand(Defence Journos) and Manufacturer' words .

How do you come to conclusion that info on Net is not true???

Anyways
For Tactical data links , here is the source
F-22 superjets could act as flying Wi-Fi hotspots ? The Register
Here is company's site - L-3 Communications
I would go by Manufacturer's word.

For AN/ALR-94 Sensors i trust AWST - courtsey Bill Sweetman , you might wanaa check it .
Same figures correlate with Carlo Kopp - Aus.net


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## KEETARP

RCS calculation is a difficult part - 
No such certifying company exists . Only Swede's manage to certify it for Fighters and Missiles
I am uploading one such certificate for RCS of Gripen - *RCS of clean gripen 0.1m2*


And some Stealth shape Knowledge would tell us why F22 was built as LO design.
Now out of various shapes the *circular* and *Trapezoid* shape were found to reflect Radar waves in all direction rather than is streamlined source of Emitter , 
that's why F22 has *Trapezoid shape and Trapezoid intakes* 

Look at the shape of Intakes and body ( leave wingspan aside)


YF23 had similar shapings-
Intakes - 

Infact Boeing Engineers went for Rear Trapezoid shape as well -


----------



## Kinetic

LT.PRATEEK said:


> ^^^^^^^ Most part is correct but ,
> Some of the things in F22 are cutting Edge which will be difficult for Pak-Fa to match .



Mate I am not saying that PAK FA will be better in every aspect like Russians claimed. Thats why I didn't mentioned about EW or avionics in details..... nor these details are available for both aircrafts. 

ALR-94: Isn't it a RWR? 250 nmi means almost 463 km and its a passive sensor!!! is there any official data or link on this range? isn't the number too big for a passive sensor? long range passive sensors need to be cued by active sensors but here passive sensor cues active one. Also PAK FA is a stealth fighter, there is no way a passive sensor can detect it at long ranges. If ALR-94 can do so much work why they needed APG-79? EA? Also passive sensors are better for stealth. I guess, as we don't know its work, PAK FA's under wing L-band AESA also doing something similar. But 463 km!! Not possible. 



> I doubt that (citation needed) ????



I think in terms of cockpit environment as far as we see on both fighters and the concept of e-pilot what they say "significantly reduces the load on the pilot and allows you to concentrate on the implementation of tactical tasks" and they also included new advanced decision support system along with multi-sensor data fusion. Also note these words.... 



> Russia's T-50 Shows New Face and Human Intelligence - Pravda.Ru
> 
> Nikolai Makarov, Russian armed forces chief of staff, said that Sukhoi&#8217;s T-50 would have several advantages over its US rival &#8211; F-22 Raptor.
> *
> &#8220;First and foremost, it goes about high, nearly human intelligence,&#8221; Makarov said.*
> 
> In addition, T-50 will be a lot cheaper than the US analogue, although the price has not been exposed yet, Makarov said.






> Sukhoi's T-50 Ready To Fight with USA's F-22 Raptor - Pravda.Ru
> 
> As suggested before, &#1058;-50 resembles the American F-22 in appearance - aerodynamics is a stubborn thing. There are no miracles, and optimal shapes of promising machines always resemble each other &#8211; same nose dome, same tail unit. Under the fuselage you can clearly see missile-bay doors. The biggest difference between the American Raptor and T-50 is a more flattened shape of the latter.
> 
> &#8220;PAK FA goes far beyond just the new looks,&#8221; told Igor Korotchenko, a member of the Public Council of the Ministry of Defense to Izvestia. &#8220;It was designed with a number of innovative solutions related to new concealment technologies, new construction materials, *artificial intelligence* and element base.&#8221;
> 
> The All-Russian Research Institute for Aircraft Materials reported that T-50 is the first jet built with polymer carbon fiber reinforced plastic. This material is twice as light as aluminum and four to five times lighter than steel. New materials account for 70 percent of the jet&#8217;s surface. It is four times lighter than jets assembled with regular materials.
> 
> A new phased-array radar facility was created for this jet. Experts with Tikhomirov Scientific Research Institute of Instrument Design stated that the new radar represents over a thousand of miniature transmittance modules combined in a single field. The radar &#8220;sees&#8221; everything that is going on both in the air and on the ground at a distance of several hundred kilometers. It can track multiple targets aiming the jet&#8217;s weapons at all them simultaneously. The developers say it can shoot at all targets at the same time, releasing missiles in a fan-like fashion.
> 
> Additionally, the new jet&#8217;s onboard equipment allows for real-time data exchange both with ground control systems and other pilots in a flight group. *This 5th generation jet is equipped with principally new complex of avionics integrating the electronic pilot function. This means that the jet analyzes the situation and suggests a range of actions for the pilot to choose from. It will significantly decrease the pilot&#8217;s workload allowing more attention to be paid to tactical missions.*
> 
> Test-pilot, Sergey Bogdan, said: &#8220;The aircraft performed excellently at all flight-test points scheduled for today. It is easy and comfortable to pilot.&#8221;
> 
> &#8220;Sukhoi&#8221; representatives said that after the test flight, &#1058;-50 will be disassembled and transported to Zhukovsky in the Moscow region to complete testing. The first production samples of the 5th generation jet are expected in 2015. The beginning of the testing shows that &#8220;Sukhoi&#8221; enterprise have once again met all its obligations. For now Russian military aviation will use the most advanced modification of the legendary Su-27, fighter jet Su-35. The jet&#8217;s structure and onboard equipment include some of the elements created for T-50.
> 
> The Army is to Receive T-50 by 2015
> 
> Vladimir Putin praised those who were involved in the design and testing of the 5th generation jet.
> 
> &#8220;The flight is a big step forward,&#8221; he said. &#8220;A lot remains to be done in terms of engines and armament."
> 
> According to Vice Prime Minister Sergey Ivanov, there is a lot more to be done with respect to the jet. This includes the engine, weapon system, and preparation of the testing grounds.


-------------------------------



> Putting IRST on F22 is not a big deal - considering F14 had it. But Reason behind it will be strategy and operational doctrine of F22
> a) You need OLS ( FLIR/IRST ) if you are up for close range fight with cuing IR missile with it , May be USAF built F22 with confidence that it wont allow any Jet to even come close to it.



If F-22 don't want to allow any fighter come close to it must be fourth generation fighters. As F-22 is stealth fighter so is PAK FA, as F-22 has long range sensors so has PAK FA. OLS is integral part of PAK FA while F-22 have to integrate it externally, its a huge disadvantage. 

For 5th generation fighters IRST will be much more needed than radars. Some say in future due to reduction of RCS (more than IR signatures), IRST will detect a fighter first than the radar. OLS-50M onboard PAK FA is very advanced and incorporates new technologies. 



> That is past , Final Prototype will fly with Flat Nozzle so movement will be in H shape or 2D , so only aircraft to field 360 TVC will be only Mig35 or Su35



I heard the news about it and its the only one. But I have doubt about it. Because we have seen videos of engines development from NPO Saturn where it shows a normal 3D engine like those onboard Mig-35 or Su-35.


----------



## gambit

Kinetic said:


> ALR-94: Isn't it a RWR? 250 nmi means almost 463 km and its a passive sensor!!! is there any official data or link on this range? isn't the number too big for a passive sensor? long range passive sensors need to be cued by active sensors but here passive sensor cues active one. Also PAK FA is a stealth fighter, there is no way a passive sensor can detect it at long ranges. If ALR-94 can do so much work why they needed APG-79? EA? Also passive sensors are better for stealth. I guess, as we don't know its work, PAK FA's under wing L-band AESA also doing something similar. *But 463 km!! Not possible. *


Very possible. You can see much further than you can speak. You need to understand the basic difference on what is a passive versus active sensor. Try this...

http://www.defence.pk/forums/715392-post62.html

Then come back with any question.



Kinetic said:


> For 5th generation fighters IRST will be much more needed than radars. Some say in future due to reduction of RCS (more than IR signatures), IRST will detect a fighter first than the radar. OLS-50M onboard PAK FA is very advanced and incorporates new technologies.


The problem with infrared is that because it is a passive sensor, there is next to nothing target information such as range or aspect angle. The best type of target information infrared give is direction.


----------



## KEETARP

Kinetic said:


> Mate I am not saying that PAK FA will be better in every aspect like Russians claimed. Thats why I didn't mentioned about EW or avionics in details..... nor these details are available for both aircrafts.



Agreed



> ALR-94: Isn't it a RWR?


True 



> 250 nmi means almost 463 km and its a passive sensor!!! is there any official data or link on this range? isn't the number too big for a passive sensor? long range passive sensors need to be cued by active sensors but here passive sensor cues active one.



Dont worry , Passive sensors is way to go , you wont find any Active radar on next manned machine form US



> Also PAK FA is a stealth fighter, there is no way a passive sensor can detect it at long ranges. *If ALR-94 can do so much work why they needed APG-79*



Bcoz for ALR to work , you need atleast some warning signal first from you enemy's tracking radar . 
If your target Pak-Fa has shut its radar or more importantly what happened in SERBIA , SAM radar is turned off . You dont want F117 incident thats why APG77 is also important , 
Weapon control is still by APG77 

Imp part of ALR94 is its *Digital Threat Library* , once it gets a Pulse repetition frequency and Pulse train sequence from a Enemy radar it can analyze and store that for Jammer's to send a out of Phase same PRF sequence to Jam you , or store it for future battle or even more can pass it on to next aircraft by datalinks to Fight you better.
PRF and Train Sequence is specific for a Radar .



> ? EA?



I dont know if they are used , but Yes why not Possible . That's the Advantage of AESA antennae , Rt



> Also passive sensors are better for stealth. I guess, as we don't know its work, *PAK FA's under wing L-band AESA also doing something similar*. But 463 km!! Not possible.


L band on wing tip of Pak-Fa , i will go with paralay's Analysis of its use. 
We know its AWACS and IFF + DATALINKS that work in L mode , so its higly probable that L band will be used for that or for Jamming the Enemy's IFF/or Datalinks.
Even our Su30MKI BARS operate in Dual mode so nothing new abt that L band . 
*If you see L band has low Freq meaning higher wavelength for the Resolution to project image on display , in turn req bigger size antennae . *
Thats fine for AWACS bcoz Antennae size is bigger but not for Fighter esp Wings.
Only advantage of Lband is longer range and operation in all weather but that comes at a compromise of sharpness.





> I think in terms of cockpit environment as far as we see on both fighters and the concept of e-pilot what they say "significantly reduces the load on the pilot and allows you to concentrate on the implementation of tactical tasks" and they also included new advanced decision support system along with multi-sensor data fusion. Also note these words....



Agreed , about AI and we cant compare it at this stage 



> If F-22 don't want to allow any fighter come close to it must be fourth generation fighters. As F-22 is stealth fighter so is PAK FA, as F-22 has long range sensors so has PAK FA. OLS is integral part of PAK FA while F-22 have to integrate it externally, its a huge disadvantage.



No its not 
OLS range of whatever Russian Jet is falls between 35-60 KMS . Long range OLS50 can reach up to what level ??????
If F16 nose can get APG80 along with IRST , no need to hang it on F22.



> For 5th generation fighters IRST will be much more needed than radars. Some say in future due to reduction of RCS (more than IR signatures), IRST will detect a fighter first than the radar. *OLS-50M onboard PAK FA is very advanced and incorporates new technologies*.


For Bolded Part- LIKE what ??????





> I heard the news about it and its the only one. But I have doubt about it. Because we have seen videos of engines development from NPO Saturn where it shows a normal 3D engine like those onboard Mig-35 or Su-35.


Its confirmed by three Russian news agency , 8 years time for development and Salyut+Saturn will make it together in JV


----------



## rastor

gambit said:


> but keep in mind that the F-22's current RCS figure is more dependent upon body shaping than from absorbers.



If this F-18 report were true, then I guess PAK-FA cannot be considered a stealth fighter, considering that the quoted figure did not include weapons. I always knew the Russians would never come out with a product that would match the F-22. Still I think a glorified MKI with a lesser RCS will have its place in this part of the world. But as someone put it before, you get what you pay for.


----------



## KEETARP

Its too early to Tell , bcoz final prototype is still not out. 
What IR reduction measures will Go in . 
What Canopy return reduction will go in 
how many rivets are there?????
heck , we even dont know how much Graphite composites and RAM layer is used.

Remember , maximum radar return is from 
*Plume of gases from Nozzles*+*Engine compressor*+ *Canopy*
Now you will ask Why canopy - just google *HaveGlass2 Reduction on F16*.

So this RCS of PAK-FA = F18 is just biased and totally crap . 
I dont know any Engineer that can calculate RCS by photos


----------



## xMustiiej70

Kinetic said:


> Cut the crap. Turkey is not considered as neither military or economic power nowhere near Pakistan, forget India.
> 
> Turkey's economy is too small to be good.
> Turkey's new systems are all copy of other's systems like MILGEM, T-129, tank etc.
> Turkey is heavily dependent on US for military survival.
> Turkey lacks the diplomatic power.
> India is listed in Global Firepower as the fourth most powerful nation, while Turkey is at number ten.
> If there is a fight between Turkey and India, Turkey will not survive a week. Even they don't have enough military power to survive with any of the nation more than one month.
> 
> 
> Above all Turkey is not comparable. Compare Turkey with Malaysia, Taiwan, Greece, Argentina, Ukraine, South Africa etc, don't go beyond that.



oooh man.. this is why the other side of me wants a war with india..
Just keep underestimating Turkey..
Just go for it.
Oh and btw good luck with your "sticks" weapon.
And your "5"th gen fighter.. i mean WORLDS BEST FIGHTER ALL TIMES.
Pak-****.


----------



## xMustiiej70

Kinetic said:


> There is no comparison between F-22 and F-35. They have complete different technologies. F-22 costs many times more than F-35 as they are both developed by same company and country. PAK FA is in the class of F-22, it was developed keeping F-22 in mind. Thats why they also call it Raptorski. Many time Russian designers compared it better that F-22 in almost all aspect.
> 
> PAK FA vs F-22 in general...
> 
> 1) PAK FA has four AESA radars of two different bands both X and L band. F-22 has single X band radar. F-22's main radar has more T/R modules than PAK FA's main radar.
> 
> 2) Both aircrafts look structurally stealthy.
> 
> 3) PAK FA has 3D TVC while F-22 has 2D.
> 
> 4) PAK FA has many more control surfaces than F-22. PAK has all moving vertical tail, LERX which F-22 doesn't.
> 
> 5) PAK FA has better man machine interference than F-22.
> 
> 6) PAK FA has longer range sensors like OLS than F-22.
> 
> 7) Max range, supercruise, altitude, top speed are almost same.



Why do you call what pakfa has better..
and f35 has way better stealth.
Russians are known for their low quality and low tech planes but best manouvrebility.
which destroys the stealth.
and the amount of radars dont matter.
its about the quality..
like the only radar of f35 is as better as all 4 of them.
and the stealthy of f35 makes it even harder to detect.
f35 uses the best avoinivs.
and best technologies.
the cockpit are way way more modern and easy to mantain then russians planes.
I see pak-fa has typhoon with stealth for air defence.


----------



## KS

xMustiiej70 said:


> Why do you call what pakfa has better..
> and f35 has way better stealth.
> Russians are known for their low quality and low tech planes but best manouvrebility.
> which destroys the stealth.
> and the amount of radars dont matter.
> its about the quality..
> like the only radar of f35 is as better as all 4 of them.
> and the stealthy of f35 makes it even harder to detect.
> f35 uses the best avoinivs.
> and best technologies.
> the cockpit are way way more modern and easy to mantain then russians planes.
> I see pak-fa has typhoon with stealth for air defence.





xMustiiej70 said:


> oooh man.. this is why the other side of me wants a war with india..
> Just keep underestimating Turkey..
> Just go for it.
> Oh and btw good luck with your "sticks" weapon.
> And your "5"th gen fighter.. i mean WORLDS BEST FIGHTER ALL TIMES.
> Pak-****.




hehehe buddy Xmustii...y do u think we need all the weapons to fight u.....just 5 Agni missiles with thermo-nuclear warheads would do the job of wiping ur country off the middle east quite smoothly in 5 mins.


----------



## xMustiiej70

Karthic Sri said:


> hehehe buddy Xmustii...y do u think we need all the weapons to fight u.....just 5 Agni missiles with thermo-nuclear warheads would do the job of wiping ur country off the middle east quite smoothly in 5 mins.



I dare India to do that.
India won´t able to do it.
And with 0.000000000000000001% succes Turkey will destroy India.
India dont have anything.
All old limited options and low technologies from Russia.


----------



## letsbefriends

xMustiiej70 said:


> I dare India to do that.
> India won´t able to do it.
> And with 0.000000000000000001% succes Turkey will destroy India.
> India dont have anything.
> All old limited options and low technologies from Russia.



what does turkey has???apart from being an american lapdog,by begging american aid n technology u cant do nothing...dat is ur status in the world..what a joke u r to humanity...


----------



## Kompromat

Karthic Sri said:


> hehehe buddy Xmustii...y do u think we need all the weapons to fight u.....just 5 Agni missiles with thermo-nuclear warheads would do the job of wiping ur country off the middle east quite smoothly in 5 mins.



First of all you dont have the operational capability of Agni-5 because it is under development and it may take years to complete.

Moreover your current capability is limited and you cant hit a target beyond 1000kms.

Secondly , you Would NEVER go to war against Turkey i bet , you dont have balllls to fight moists how are you going to fight the Biggest Millitary in EU ?


We have got their Back


----------



## jagjitnatt

xMustiiej70 said:


> Why do you call what pakfa has better..
> and f35 has way better stealth.
> Russians are known for their low quality and low tech planes but best manouvrebility.
> which destroys the stealth.
> and the amount of radars dont matter.
> its about the quality..
> like the only radar of f35 is as better as all 4 of them.
> and the stealthy of f35 makes it even harder to detect.
> f35 uses the best avoinivs.
> and best technologies.
> the cockpit are way way more modern and easy to mantain then russians planes.
> I see pak-fa has typhoon with stealth for air defence.



Listen, you don't know anything about India. So cut the crap. Turkey is nowhere near India militarily. Turkey can't even compare itself with Pakistan.

No matter how much you rant, things won't change. You need at least 5-6 months to know about defense. Right now you're an amateur. Learn with time and you'll realize how things go on. 

And no arguments from now on.


----------



## Kompromat

letsbefriends said:


> what does turkey has???apart from being an american lapdog,by begging american aid n technology u cant do nothing...dat is ur status in the world..what a joke u r to humanity...



Well if we see conventionally Turkey is the strongest Millitary in EU , considering their Navy and rest of the forces.

Indians are the Biggest Lapdogs of Americans and Jews which is quite clear.

Turkey is a Strong country and they are way better than India in terms of Infrastructure and development.


----------



## xMustiiej70

letsbefriends said:


> what does turkey has???apart from being an american lapdog,by begging american aid n technology u cant do nothing...dat is ur status in the world..what a joke u r to humanity...



We work like dogs we have tough lives in Turkey.
But we manage to get money.
And secure our country.
By giving money to usa.
For fighters and helis.
with full transfer etc.
and look at us now..
We have gathered so many techs from Germany,Israel and usa that we make our own things.
We almost produce and develop our own arsenal.
Only lack of air force.
The lack of own designed and developed fighters..
but who going to invest billions in it..
when we get better aircraft like f35(maybe turkey could developer better one) for less billion of us dollars.
with full tech transfer.
And we keep buying lincense with full tech transfer.
So we can develop our own arsenal.
Just that air force... but who cares..
Look at india..
You guys dont get full technology transfer from russia.
and also some of your toys from russia are limited options.


----------



## Kompromat

*All right guys Cool it , lets get back to the Topic !*


----------



## sancho

xMustiiej70 said:


> oooh man.. this is why the other side of me wants a war with india..
> Just keep underestimating Turkey..
> Just go for it.
> Oh and btw good luck with your "sticks" weapon.
> And your "5"th gen fighter.. i mean WORLDS BEST FIGHTER ALL TIMES.
> Pak-****.



Buddy, nobody underestimates turkish military, or your defense industry, because they will clearly improve in the next decades. But you clearly overestimates them without seeing the high reliability of them to foreign nations and foreign developments.
For example, T129 is not a combat helicopter developed by Turkey, it is just an upgraded version of the Agosta Westland 129. Turkey just gets the license production rights, as well as the right to integrate indigenous techs, or weapons, but at the end it still is an ITA-UK combat helicopter, not turkish and that is not the only case. The U214 subs that Turkey wants from Germany, should be build under licence and will integrate turkish systems too, but obviously it still will be a German sub right?

India instead already developed own helicopters, including the new LCH, or an MBT like the Arjun, trainer and combat aircrafts, as well as big parts of navy vessels, including the first SSBN and aircraft carrier that are in production now. You must admit that Turkey is clearly behind in this fields and is just starting own indigenous developments like the Altay MBT that will come in some years.


----------



## xMustiiej70

jagjitnatt said:


> Listen, you don't know anything about India. So cut the crap. Turkey is nowhere near India militarily. Turkey can't even compare itself with Pakistan.
> 
> No matter how much you rant, things won't change. You need at least 5-6 months to know about defense. Right now you're an amateur. Learn with time and you'll realize how things go on.
> 
> And no arguments from now on.



Since I was born.
I had interests in being a commando.
I have been flying in a simulator and a f16 under control of a pilot and my mayor of my city.
at konya third main air base.
They said i could be a pilot if i keep going like this.
And besides that.. tell me what turkey dont have..
and turkey dont have it BETTER...
only thing india has is.. alot of humans..
But whats the point?
If they arent skilled? trained or PROPER equipped?


----------



## letsbefriends

xMustiiej70 said:


> We work like dogs we have tough lives in Turkey.
> But we manage to get money.
> And secure our country.
> By giving money to usa.
> For fighters and helis.
> with full transfer etc.
> and look at us now..
> We have gathered so many techs from Germany,Israel and usa that we make our own things.
> We almost produce and develop our own arsenal.
> Only lack of air force.
> The lack of own designed and developed fighters..
> but who going to invest billions in it..
> when we get better aircraft like f35(maybe turkey could developer better one) for less billion of us dollars.
> with full tech transfer.
> And we keep buying lincense with full tech transfer.
> So we can develop our own arsenal.
> Just that air force... but who cares..
> Look at india..
> You guys dont get full technology transfer from russia.
> and also some of your toys from russia are limited options.



hahaha ur american propaganda says it???and u said it u work like dog..coz u r one,now do us all a favour.go kill urself or get a life....personally i would like u to choose the former option.


----------



## sancho

Black Blood said:


> Well if we see conventionally Turkey is the strongest Millitary in EU , considering their Navy and rest of the forces.



What about UK and France?


----------



## jagjitnatt

Black Blood said:


> First of all you dont have the operational capability of Agni-5 because it is under development and it may take years to complete.
> 
> Moreover your current capability is limited and you cant hit a target *beyond 1000kms.*


We have the capability. Agni-II is inducted since years now. Its range is over 2000 kms. Agni-III is under going induction with range of over 3500 kms with 1.5 ton payload.


> Secondly , you Would NEVER go to war against Turkey i bet , you *dont have balllls to fight moists* how are you going to fight the Biggest Millitary in EU ?
> 
> 
> We have got their Back


keep your balls to yourself, before someone smashes them. Didn't anyone teach you some manners?

BTW, we are not interested in attacking Turkey. Its this guy who is daring us to do the same. And what is the biggest military in EU in front of the second biggest in the world??? Our troops are 4.5 times theirs.


----------



## xMustiiej70

sancho said:


> Buddy, nobody underestimates turkish military, or your defense industry, because they will clearly improve in the next decades. But you clearly overestimates them without seeing the high reliability of them to foreign nations and foreign developments.
> For example, T129 is not a combat helicopter developed by Turkey, it is just an upgraded version of the Agosta Westland 129. Turkey just gets the license production rights, as well as the right to integrate indigenous techs, or weapons, but at the end it still is an ITA-UK combat helicopter, not turkish and that is not the only case. The U214 subs that Turkey wants from Germany, should be build under licence and will integrate turkish systems too, but obviously it still will be a German sub right?
> 
> India instead already developed own helicopters, including the new LCH, or an MBT like the Arjun, trainer and combat aircrafts, as well as big parts of navy vessels, including the first SSBN and aircraft carrier that are in production now. You must admit that Turkey is clearly behind in this fields and is just starting own indigenous developments like the Altay MBT that will come in some years.



The t-129 will be using a129 model.
engine from Rah-66 from usa.
and radar from israel(similar but better then the apache radar).
besides that.. ALL OF IT IS TURKISH.
So its like 80% turkish...
also.. 214 subs from germany to turkey.
are german.
But we filled it with turkish recources.
which makes it 60% turkish.
However its designed by germany ofcourse.
Turkey is developing MILGEM frigates/corvettes(very high specs) and destroyers/frigates (some call them warships) TF-2000(Best frigate with stealth).
With better missiles then harpoon from roketsan.
and better radars etc.. from aselsan.
Turkey is developing Altay tank.
Armour from south korea.
the rest is turkish.
a prototype will use 100% turkish recources.
and turkey already developed trainer aircraft.

Also.. I prefer having 60% turkish made and 40% other country but having the best of the world.
or one of the best.
then having typical soviet/russian tech and moderate quality 100% turkish.
just like india has them.
Only thing im impressed of india is.. how they managed to get over 1billion population.
Their entire army is really bad equipped.
These are said by india itself.
They had modernization but still it didn't helped much.
and the training of the turkish armed forces.
are extremely tough and pretty long.


----------



## xMustiiej70

sancho said:


> What about UK and France?



They have the economy better then turkey.
But if you look at armed forces.. turkey destroys them all combined.
Thats why UK,France and germany dont want turkey in the EU.
Especially germany.


----------



## jagjitnatt

xMustiiej70 said:


> Since I was born.
> I had interests in being a commando.
> I have been flying in a simulator and a f16 under control of a pilot and my mayor of my city.
> at konya third main air base.
> They said i could be a pilot if i keep going like this.
> And besides that.. tell me what turkey dont have..
> and turkey dont have it BETTER...
> only thing india has is.. alot of humans..
> But whats the point?
> If they arent skilled? trained or PROPER equipped?



Open a new thread and I'll educate you there. Don't want to troll this thread.


----------



## xMustiiej70

jagjitnatt said:


> We have the capability. Agni-II is inducted since years now. Its range is over 2000 kms. Agni-III is under going induction with range of over 3500 kms with 1.5 ton payload.
> 
> keep your balls to yourself, before someone smashes them. Didn't anyone teach you some manners?
> 
> BTW, we are not interested in attacking Turkey. Its this guy who is daring us to do the same. And what is the biggest military in EU in front of the second biggest in the world??? Our troops are *4.5 times *theirs.



Typical Indian who makes low quality tanks with low quality tech from russia.
in bigger numbers.

QUANITY IS NOT IMPORTANT.
QUALITY AND SKILLS is important.

---------- Post added at 12:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:20 PM ----------




jagjitnatt said:


> Open a new thread and I'll educate you there.* Don't want to troll this thread*.



So you admit it?
100% indigenous indian guy.

---------- Post added at 12:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:20 PM ----------

Numbers were important in ww1 where they had not proper defensives..
and kinda in ww2...
but in modern warfare..
theres something called advanced armour and defence.


----------



## jagjitnatt

xMustiiej70 said:


> Typical Indian who makes low quality tanks with low quality tech from russia.
> in bigger numbers.
> 
> QUANITY IS NOT IMPORTANT.
> QUALITY AND SKILLS is important.


As I said open a new thread and stop trolling here. You'll be educated there.



> So you admit it?
> 100&#37; indigenous indian guy.


What in the world did I admit? Get some english lessons.


----------



## Kinetic

xMustiiej70 said:


> Why do you call what pakfa has better..


Now this is better than one line..... come to the point. 

F-35 was never developed as true fifth generation fighter but mostly as a low cost, low tech replacement of F-16. When US govt didn't wanted to sell F-22 to any country they came up with less capable 5th generation fighter named JSF. The US F-35 will also be significantly different from the one other would get. PAK FA was developed keeping F-22 in mind not F-35, Russian officials openly mentioned it. 



> and f35 has way better stealth.



Now if you consider consider the design of F-35 than you will understand that it all dependent on two to three aspects. F-35 is mainly stealthy design in frontal aspect. Its also developed as a low cost and maintenance stealth technology. The F-35 also don't have high degree of advanced composite airframe like PAK FA. 

Above all F-35 was designed to be stealth in X-band only while PAK FA is stealthy in all bands. When developing PAK FA designers keep in mind IR spectrum as well as all the sensor's LPI capabilities to make it more and more stealthy. 



> Russians are known for their low quality and low tech planes but best manouvrebility.


Joking? 'low quality' or 'low tech'!!! Can you say how many countries can field a *PESA radar, thrust vectoring engine and digital flight control system* in one aircraft before Russia? Russian already fielded MKI beat many western fighters and did well against fighters like Typhoon. Russia still one of the few countries who have developed AESA for fighters. 

*Can you say what low technology in on the Russian fighter? Or what 'high technology' others have?* 



> which destroys the stealth.


What destroys the stealth??  Stealth's advantage is, I see and track you while you cannot. Now I have all the advantages of destroying you first with my long range missiles. 



> and the amount of radars dont matter.
> its about the quality..


Do you even know why PAK FA has so many radars? It has two X-band AESA radars and two L-band AESA radars which have their own advantages. 

What quality? Which radar is there rather than APG-77 that is better than PAK FA's frontal X-band AESA? 




> like the only radar of f35 is as better as all 4 of them.


Another joke? PAK FA's frontal main radar has many more T/ modules than APG-81. APG-81 is a X-band radar while PAK FA has both X-band and L-band radars. 



> and the stealthy of f35 makes it even harder to detect.


F-35 don't have stealth against L-band, so another huge advantage of PAK FA. 



> f35 uses the best avoinivs.
> and best technologies.


No F-22 and PAK FA uses best avionics. Check it again. The sensors on board PAK FA is way better than F-35's. For example OLS-50M which said to have QWI technology also fatser data transfer and better man machine inference. 



> the cockpit are way way more modern and easy to mantain then russians planes.


So the cokpit is also 'way more modern' than F-22's? Because it got a huge LCD? lol Do you even know what make a cockpit better? It easy of uses, multi-sensor data fusion and above all brain of the avionics which helps the pilot to take decisions... as well as artificial intelligence behind the scene. 



> I see pak-fa has typhoon with stealth for air defence.


What a foolish comment!!! You said it here no problem but don't say it any where else!!! that will be a big question on your knowledge. Its like comparing F-15C with F-22. I don't see a single similarity between Typhoon and PAK FA except supercruise. If you see than post it before commenting like this.

*Name single system onboard F-35 that is better than PAK FA's. *

*Waiting for reply.... don't post single lines.... *

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## KS

Black Blood said:


> First of all you dont have the operational capability of Agni-5 because it is under development and it may take years to complete.



Didnt understand my post huh...i said 5 agni missiles...not Agni-5 missiles.....OMG..have to explain everything to these ppl.



Black Blood said:


> Moreover your current capability is limited and you cant hit a target beyond 1000kms.



And wich wise man believes so..?
Our Agni-3 has a stated capability of 3500 km and that too with a 2.4 ton warhead....2.4 tons for Turkey.?? Swatting a fly with a sledgehammer..

And our missiles can also be delivered by the Mig-29K fighters onboard Vikramaditya.




Black Blood said:


> Secondly , you Would NEVER go to war against Turkey i bet , you dont have balllls to fight moists how are you going to fight the Biggest Millitary in EU ?



Biggest in EU..? France,Germany,UK all in Antartica..?



Black Blood said:


> We have got their Back








xMustiiej70 said:


> They have the economy better then turkey.
> But if you look at armed forces.. turkey destroys them all combined.
> Thats why UK,France and germany dont want turkey in the EU.
> Especially germany.



this takes the piece of the cake.....Kid u ll not even know wat hit u wen Typhoons and rafales start roaring into the Turkish skies...

BTW: the NetherLands Govt mayb watching u posting all these and u may be arrested for a *****....


*@ Kinetic:*

Leave it bro...i doubt if this guy knows wat a radar does in a fighter..

the other day i was having a discussion with him amd he mentioned PAKFA has just 4 radars and his turkish F-35 will have 9..So F-35 is better...i nearly fell from my chair on reading it.


----------



## Iggy

Black Blood said:


> Secondly , you Would NEVER go to war against Turkey i bet , you dont have balllls to fight moists how are you going to fight the Biggest Millitary in EU ?
> 
> 
> We have got their Back




We never going to war against Turkey for sure..because we have nothing to do with them and they have nothing to do with us..Who said we are not fighting against maoists..we didnt deploy the army instead paramilitary and police are doing the job..

And whats with Pakistan got Turkeys back??do you really think Pakistan as of now can afford a war for another country??what do you think about the general public will think about their sons,father,brother getting killed for some others war??do you really think your government is insane enough to send your troops to help turkey??


----------



## sancho

xMustiiej70 said:


> The t-129 will be using a129 model.
> engine from Rah-66 from usa.
> and radar from israel(similar but better then the apache radar).
> besides that.. ALL OF IT IS TURKISH.
> *So its like 80% turkish*...



The design is Italian, the engine US, the radar from Israel and you still say it's 80% turkish? 



xMustiiej70 said:


> also.. 214 subs from germany to turkey.
> are german.
> But we filled it with turkish recources.
> which makes it 60% turkish.
> However its designed by germany ofcourse.



Same here, the design, the propulsion, most of the main techs are German, so how can you really believe 60% would be turkish? 



xMustiiej70 said:


> Turkey *is developing* MILGEM frigates/corvettes(very high specs) and destroyers/frigates (some call them warships) TF-2000(Best frigate with stealth).
> With better missiles then harpoon from roketsan.
> and better radars etc.. from aselsan.
> Turkey* is developing* Altay tank.
> Armour from south korea.
> the rest is turkish.
> a prototype will use 100% turkish recources.
> and turkey already developed trainer aircraft.


Yes, that's what I said! Turkey is developing indigenous arms for the future, India is already producing and please be a bit more realistic and don't sound like a troll by saying everything what you develop, or just licence produce like the T129 will be the best. Be proud of it, but don't overestimate it!

The rest of your post simply shows the lack of info you have, the Su 30 in generall is often said to be a bit better than similar gen F15s, the MKI even is the most advanced Su 30 and uses top western avionics. That is clearly better than anything the TAF has right now.

Once again, try to inform yourself first and compare realistically, not with a biased mind!


----------



## airuah

Black Blood said:


> First of all you dont have the operational capability of Agni-5 because it is under development and it may take years to complete.
> 
> Moreover your current capability is limited and you cant hit a target beyond 1000kms.
> 
> Secondly , you Would NEVER go to war against Turkey i bet , you dont have balllls to fight moists how are you going to fight the Biggest Millitary in EU ?
> 
> 
> We have got their Back





ha ha ha ......second biggest in Eu...............hmmmmmm india is the second largest in the world.....ooops...


maoists.......we are not using our military to fight them.....we use our police and paramilitary .......unlike some countries where the military has to poke its nose into every thing .....

and you got their back>>>????????????.....who,s got your front.....


----------



## xMustiiej70

Kinetic said:


> Now this is better than one line..... come to the point.
> 
> F-35 was never developed as true fifth generation fighter but mostly as a low cost, low tech replacement of F-16. When US govt didn't wanted to sell F-22 to any country they came up with less capable 5th generation fighter named JSF. The US F-35 will also be significantly different from the one other would get. PAK FA was developed keeping F-22 in mind not F-35, Russian officials openly mentioned it.
> 
> 
> *Lockeed said they will develop f22 but with lower cost,less stealth,less manoevrebility.They even said and actually producing and putting best avoinics in f35 better then f22. and it will use similar technologies even better.
> these are said by lockeed? you never watch the news??
> interviews can do alot here.*
> 
> Now if you consider consider the design of F-35 than you will understand that it all dependent on two to three aspects. F-35 is mainly stealthy design in frontal aspect. Its also developed as a low cost and maintenance stealth technology. The F-35 also don't have high degree of advanced composite airframe like PAK FA.
> *So what? Who will come from behind?
> thats kinda impossible.
> Due to high speed.
> its from front or back.
> its not a chopper you can intercept from behind*
> Above all F-35 was designed to be stealth in X-band only while PAK FA is stealthy in all bands. When developing PAK FA designers keep in mind IR spectrum as well as all the sensor's LPI capabilities to make it more and more stealthy.
> 
> *again what is the point of both side stealth?*
> Joking? 'low quality' or 'low tech'!!! Can you say how many countries can field a *PESA radar, thrust vectoring engine and digital flight control system* in one aircraft before Russia? Russian already fielded MKI beat many western fighters and did well against fighters like Typhoon. Russia still one of the few countries who have developed AESA for fighters.
> *Besides radars what does the Pakfa has?*
> *Also tell me when russian planes defeated western fighters..*
> *Can you say what low technology in on the Russian fighter? Or what 'high technology' others have?*
> *Radars maybe are better or not enough for f35 or f22.
> But the rest? is just not better then f35.
> The armament is on every plane good.
> But we have better missiles*
> 
> What destroys the stealth??  Stealth's advantage is, I see and track you while you cannot. Now I have all the advantages of destroying you first with my long range missiles.
> 
> 
> Do you even know why PAK FA has so many radars? It has two X-band AESA radars and two L-band AESA radars which have their own advantages.
> 
> What quality? Which radar is there rather than APG-77 that is better than PAK FA's frontal X-band AESA?
> 
> 
> 
> Another joke? PAK FA's frontal main radar has many more T/ modules than APG-81. APG-81 is a X-band radar while PAK FA has both X-band and L-band radars.
> 
> 
> F-35 don't have stealth against L-band, so another huge advantage of PAK FA.
> *Why would f35 have stealth on the sides?!?!?!*
> 
> No F-22 and PAK FA uses best avionics. Check it again. The sensors on board PAK FA is way better than F-35's. For example OLS-50M which said to have QWI technology also fatser data transfer and better man machine inference.
> 
> *Omg.. LOCKEED MARTIN SAID F35 WILL USE F22 AVOINICS BUT BETTER.
> SINCE IN THE PAST YEARS THEY GET BETTER AVOINICS AND TECHNOLOGIES.*
> So the cokpit is also 'way more modern' than F-22's? Because it got a huge LCD? lol Do you even know what make a cockpit better? It easy of uses, multi-sensor data fusion and above all brain of the avionics which helps the pilot to take decisions... as well as artificial intelligence behind the scene.
> 
> *Tell me what does pak fa has in the cockpit which is better on the f35.
> however not many informations about this.*
> What a foolish comment!!! You said it here no problem but don't say it any where else!!! that will be a big question on your knowledge. Its like comparing F-15C with F-22. I don't see a single similarity between Typhoon and PAK FA except supercruise. If you see than post it before commenting like this.
> 
> *Name single system onboard F-35 that is better than PAK FA's. *
> 
> *Waiting for reply.... don't post single lines.... *




And besides that all..
Im not a typical political guy whos giving typcail political arguements.
I just talk how i always talk.
No need to type all these codes and terms.
like you do.
dont try to get your points with that.


----------



## xMustiiej70

sancho said:


> The design is Italian, the engine US, the radar from Israel and you still say it's 80% turkish?
> 
> *Why dont you search a bit about the t-129? I hope you can understand turkish or translate them.*
> 
> Same here, the design, the propulsion, most of the main techs are German, so how can you really believe 60% would be turkish?
> 
> *"Turkish industrial participation in the project would be worth around 81% of the total value of the deal" - Defence Minister Vecdi Gonul* *This is somthing from Wikipedia:As the Turkish Type 214 will have a significant amount of Turkish indigenous systems on board, this variant of the Type 214 will be known as the Type 214TN (Turkish Navy). HDW will preassemble structural and mechanical parts of the submarine in Germany, or classified elements such as the fuel cells and propulsion system and will then ship them to Turkey. All electronic and weapon systems (including the C4I system) will be of Turkish design and production.
> *Yes, that's what I said! Turkey is developing indigenous arms for the future, India is already producing and please be a bit more realistic and don't sound like a troll by saying everything what you develop, or just licence produce like the T129 will be the best. Be proud of it, but don't overestimate it!
> *Look at the specs?
> Only thing is.. Open the doors let the crew get in and let it proof itself.*
> The rest of your post simply shows the lack of info you have, the Su 30 in generall is often said to be a bit better than similar gen F15s, the MKI even is the most advanced Su 30 and uses top western avionics. That is clearly better than anything the TAF has right now.
> 
> Once again, try to inform yourself first and compare realistically, not with a biased mind!



I can't really help if you can't read something.


----------



## sancho

xMustiiej70 said:


> Turkish industrial participation in the project would be worth around 81%



Industrial participation, dosen't mean that that ammount is turkish, it just mean that that ammount will be produced in Turkey, althought it is of foreign origin. That's what licence production is!

That's what you did often before:



> Yavuz 16 Semi-automatic pistol 9mm Turkey Standard service pistol. *Beretta 92 produced under license by MKEK.*
> 
> M16A1 Assault rifle 5.56mm United States/ Turkey *Produced under license by Sarsilmaz*[1]
> 
> Unimog 4000-5000 Light utility truck 5,500 Germany/ Turkey *Produced under license in Turkey (Mercedes-Benz Türk A.S., Aksaray Truck Factory)*
> 
> Eurocopter AS-532UL Cougar Utility helicopter 26[4] Turkey *Built under license by TAI*...



Same goes for the T129, or would go for the U214, the only difference is, that the turkish defense industry has improved now to a level, to integrate indigenous techs and weapons into *these foreign arms* too. That's good, but that doesn't make it developed completely by Turkey!


----------



## sancho

However, to get the thread on topic again here a new video of Pak Fa:

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## xMustiiej70

sancho said:


> Industrial participation, dosen't mean that that ammount is turkish, it just mean that that ammount will be produced in Turkey, althought it is of foreign origin. That's what licence production is!
> 
> That's what you did often before:
> 
> 
> 
> Same goes for the T129, or would go for the U214, the only difference is, that the turkish defense industry has improved now to a level, to integrate indigenous techs and weapons into *these foreign arms* too. That's good, but that doesn't make it developed completely by Turkey!



The t-129 is a complete new chopper.
and having 3 parts from 3 different countries is also turkish..
you know why?
we have the people that can do business with.


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## sohan

Good thread.


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## xMustiiej70

no need to bring attention go to turkey vs india thread,spammer.


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## KEETARP

Sancho , Great video 

2things that struck me immediately

At start of video - Nose size , superbly designed and space like f22 to house Niip- Masterpiece.
Lift during take off - So smooth when on a demo engine with lower thrust , just shows the shear power of 117s plant.


----------



## gambit

Kinetic said:


> F-35 was never developed as true fifth generation fighter...


Yes it is.


Kinetic said:


> PAK FA was developed keeping F-22 in mind not F-35, Russian officials openly mentioned it.


Does not mean it is better than the F-35.



Kinetic said:


> Now if you consider consider the design of F-35 than you will understand that it all dependent on two to three aspects. *F-35 is mainly stealthy design in frontal aspect.*


So what? All aircrafts' RCS values are calculated from front.



Kinetic said:


> The F-35 also don't have high degree of advanced composite airframe like PAK FA.


Does not equate to inferiority. Composites for RCS reduction is best on surface, not internal.



Kinetic said:


> Above all F-35 was designed to be stealth in X-band only *while PAK FA is stealthy in all bands.*


Nonsense. Please provide source.



Kinetic said:


> When developing PAK FA designers keep in mind IR spectrum as well as all the sensor's LPI capabilities to make it more and more stealthy.


Keep in mind means what? They can 'keep in mind' but they can also fail.



Kinetic said:


> Do you even know why PAK FA has so many radars? It has two X-band AESA radars and two L-band AESA radars which have their own advantages.


The smaller L-band radars do not have the necessary range to be effective.



Kinetic said:


> Another joke? PAK FA's frontal main radar has many more T/ modules than APG-81.


More T/R modules does not automatically equate to superior performance. For an AESA array, equally important is the array management softwares. We have no indicators that Russia is superior to US in this respect. Therefore, a higher number of T/R modules is quite meaningless.



Kinetic said:


> F-35 don't have stealth against L-band, so another huge advantage of PAK FA.


The L-band wing antennas are too small to be range effective.



Kinetic said:


> No F-22 and PAK FA uses best avionics. Check it again. The sensors on board PAK FA is way better than F-35's. For example OLS-50M which said to have *QWI technology* also fatser data transfer and better man machine inference.


Quantum Well Infrared is nothing new. The problem with infrared is lack of target information such as range, speed and aspect angle. IR is best for general target direction.



Kinetic said:


> So the cokpit is also 'way more modern' than F-22's? Because it got a huge LCD? lol Do you even know what make a cockpit better? It easy of uses, multi-sensor data fusion and above all brain of the avionics which helps the pilot to take decisions... as well as artificial intelligence behind the scene.


A huge LCD does not make a cockpit better. This statement reveals a high degree of gullibility.



Kinetic said:


> Name single system onboard F-35 that is better than PAK FA's.


Sure...Distributive Aperature System.


----------



## desiman

gambit said:


> Yes it is.
> 
> Does not mean it is better than the F-35.
> 
> 
> So what? All aircrafts' RCS values are calculated from front.
> 
> 
> Does not equate to inferiority. Composites for RCS reduction is best on surface, not internal.
> 
> 
> Nonsense. Please provide source.
> 
> 
> Keep in mind means what? They can 'keep in mind' but they can also fail.
> 
> 
> The smaller L-band radars do not have the necessary range to be effective.
> 
> 
> More T/R modules does not automatically equate to superior performance. For an AESA array, equally important is the array management softwares. We have no indicators that Russia is superior to US in this respect. Therefore, a higher number of T/R modules is quite meaningless.
> 
> 
> The L-band wing antennas are too small to be range effective.
> 
> 
> Quantum Well Infrared is nothing new. The problem with infrared is lack of target information such as range, speed and aspect angle. IR is best for general target direction.
> 
> 
> A huge LCD does not make a cockpit better. This statement reveals a high degree of gullibility.
> 
> 
> Sure...Distributive Aperature System.



Gambit i agree with you most of the time but i think your jumping to conclusions too soon here, let the PAKFA come out and then you can analyze it properly. Trying to say that its better/worse than the F-22 just by looking at early figure and prototype models isnt fair.


----------



## xMustiiej70

Indeed i was already thinking of that L-band not very effective.


----------



## KS

----------SD----------------


----------



## KEETARP

Gambit 

What is the size of antennae of Lband radar on Wing-tips and its power rating and Gain


----------



## gambit

xMustiiej70 said:


> Indeed i was already thinking of that L-band not very effective.


There are many important things regarding radar detection but the most important item is antenna size. Like ****, size matter. The larger the antenna, the tighter its beam and the result is better target resolution. Pencil beams are best but at the cost of search time. Wide beams are good for volume search but at the cost of target resolution, such as speed, altitude and aspect angle. In the worst case, with radar resolution cell effect, two or more aircrafts will be seen as one target and against a flight of F-35 in tight formation, this is a losing position for the enemy.

The wing L-band radars are effective only in very restricted situations precisely because they are so small.


----------



## gambit

LT.PRATEEK said:


> Gambit
> 
> What is the size of antennae of Lband radar on Wing-tips and its power rating and Gain


Sorry...But we will have to wait on the Russians on that info.


----------



## Kinetic

xMustiiej70 said:


> Lockeed said they will develop f22 but with lower cost,less stealth,less manoevrebility.They even said and actually producing and putting best avoinics in f35 better then f22. and it will use similar technologies even better.
> these are said by lockeed? you never watch the news??
> interviews can do alot here.



You are the first person on earth who thinks F-35 is better than F-22!!! Nothing to say. F-35 has slightly better a-to-g, thats it. LM never said something like that. 

Also US govt said a big NO to its key allies who wanted to buy F-22...... Japan, UK, Australia, Israel etc. F-22 is only for US! why? 




> So what? Who will come from behind?
> thats kinda impossible.
> Due to high speed.
> its from front or back.
> its not a chopper you can intercept from behind


everyone come from behind!!!

lol man that was a funny question something like you asked, "why we need stealth?" than why everybody wants all aspect stealth or 360 degree sensors and missile coverage. F-35 never designed for all aspect stealth. 

SPEED? PAK FA has much better speed and supercruise than F-35. What if a Mach 5 missile starts chasing F-35 from behind? 



> again what is the point of both side stealth?



hey dude you didn't got what I said read t again....

"Above all F-35 was designed to be stealth in X-band only while PAK FA is stealthy in all bands. When developing PAK FA designers keep in mind IR spectrum as well as all the sensor's LPI capabilities to make it more and more stealthy."



> Besides radars what does the Pakfa has?
> Also tell me when russian planes defeated western fighters..


Where is the answer of my question that 'what low techs Russian fighters have'?

Beside radars PAK FA has everything that a true fifth generation fighter should have like F-22. *All aspect stealth against whole electromagnetic spectrum & IR, supercruise, advanced radars, advanced e-pilot, new generation weapons. 
*
See all the exercises... COPE INDIA, SINDEX, Indradhanush etc and many others. Read all the articles where Russian fighters meet western fighters. 



> Radars maybe are better or not enough for f35 or f22.
> But the rest? is just not better then f35.
> The armament is on every plane good.
> But we have better missiles



Again didn't answer my question!!! You said that F-35's APG-81 is better now what led you to change your mind? 

If PAK FA has only stealth against X-band than F-22 or F-35's radar can't do anything but its not same in case of PAK FA's radar! PAK FA's radars search in all possible bands for stealth fighters. Where F-35 will be easily detected by L-band radars on the PAK FA. It also has OLS-50 which is more advanced than OLS-35. 

Not just radar but every thing is better in PAK FA than F-35. As far as physical characteristics are concerned it has longer range, supercruise, more internal weapons, longer range radars etc etc. 

PAK FA will get way better weapons than F-35. Check about current RVV-SD and RVV-MD development. There are missiles called Izdelie 810 with 400 km range and Izdelie-180PD with 250 km range against air targets. 



> Omg.. LOCKEED MARTIN SAID F35 WILL USE F22 AVOINICS BUT BETTER.
> SINCE IN THE PAST YEARS THEY GET BETTER AVOINICS AND TECHNOLOGIES.



LM didn't said that, they can't. Give me a source. 

*Just go ans search F-22 vs F-35, you will learn alot. *



> Tell me what does pak fa has in the cockpit which is better on the f35.
> however not many informations about this.



Seems like you didn't answer a single question whatever i asked!!! read my post again, i have already mentioned it.


----------



## FlyingSpagetti

^^^^ Grt Analysis!


----------



## xMustiiej70

Kinetic said:


> You are the first person on earth who thinks F-35 is better than F-22!!! Nothing to say. F-35 has slightly better a-to-g, thats it. LM never said something like that.
> 
> Also US govt said a big NO to its key allies who wanted to buy F-22...... Japan, UK, Australia, Israel etc. F-22 is only for US! why?
> 
> 
> 
> everyone come from behind!!!
> 
> lol man that was a funny question something like you asked, "why we need stealth?" than why everybody wants all aspect stealth or 360 degree sensors and missile coverage. F-35 never designed for all aspect stealth.
> 
> SPEED? PAK FA has much better speed and supercruise than F-35. What if a Mach 5 missile starts chasing F-35 from behind?
> 
> 
> 
> hey dude you didn't got what I said read t again....
> 
> "Above all F-35 was designed to be stealth in X-band only while PAK FA is stealthy in all bands. When developing PAK FA designers keep in mind IR spectrum as well as all the sensor's LPI capabilities to make it more and more stealthy."
> 
> 
> Where is the answer of my question that 'what low techs Russian fighters have'?
> 
> Beside radars PAK FA has everything that a true fifth generation fighter should have like F-22. *All aspect stealth against whole electromagnetic spectrum & IR, supercruise, advanced radars, advanced e-pilot, new generation weapons.
> *
> See all the exercises... COPE INDIA, SINDEX, Indradhanush etc and many others. Read all the articles where Russian fighters meet western fighters.
> 
> 
> 
> Again didn't answer my question!!! You said that F-35's APG-81 is better now what led you to change your mind?
> 
> If PAK FA has only stealth against X-band than F-22 or F-35's radar can't do anything but its not same in case of PAK FA's radar! PAK FA's radars search in all possible bands for stealth fighters. Where F-35 will be easily detected by L-band radars on the PAK FA. It also has OLS-50 which is more advanced than OLS-35.
> 
> Not just radar but every thing is better in PAK FA than F-35. As far as physical characteristics are concerned it has longer range, supercruise, more internal weapons, longer range radars etc etc.
> 
> PAK FA will get way better weapons than F-35. Check about current RVV-SD and RVV-MD development. There are missiles called Izdelie 810 with 400 km range and Izdelie-180PD with 250 km range against air targets.
> 
> 
> 
> LM didn't said that, they can't. Give me a source.
> 
> *Just go ans search F-22 vs F-35, you will learn alot. *
> 
> 
> 
> Seems like you didn't answer a single question whatever i asked!!! read my post again, i have already mentioned it.



A PDF that will explain everything.
Go to f22 wikipedia page(US page) and then go to citation 25.
and download the file.
and read it.
Hope your dissed now.


----------



## gambit

Kinetic said:


> everyone come from behind!!!


Sounds kinky.



Kinetic said:


> hey dude you didn't got what I said read t again....
> 
> "Above all F-35 was designed to be stealth in X-band only while *PAK FA is stealthy in all bands.*


Source for that claim? Else it is meaningless.



Kinetic said:


> If PAK FA has only stealth against X-band than F-22 or F-35's radar can't do anything but its not same in case of PAK FA's radar! PAK FA's radars search in all possible bands for stealth fighters. *Where F-35 will be easily detected by L-band radars on the PAK FA.*


Given the wing L-band radars' small size, by the time they detect the F-35, the larger nose radar will as well.



Kinetic said:


> Not just radar but every thing is better in PAK FA than F-35.


Baseless claim.


----------



## Kinetic

xMustiiej70 said:


> A PDF that will explain everything.
> Go to f22 wikipedia page(US page) and then go to citation 25.
> and download the file.
> and read it.
> Hope your dissed now.



*Again single line!!!! *

So you didn't answer a single question previous time nor this time also!!! Just put a line, "F-35 is better, huhhhh"!!!! Why 'better', you don't know, is it like that?

Reply to my post first, if you can...


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## Wingman

It Looks great!!!


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## Mirza Jatt




----------



## xMustiiej70

Kinetic said:


> *Again single line!!!! *
> 
> So you didn't answer a single question previous time nor this time also!!! Just put a line, "F-35 is better, huhhhh"!!!! Why 'better', you don't know, is it like that?
> 
> Reply to my post first, if you can...



I did already.
How about you read my post again.
Because you keep asking for sources.
I just gave you one.
An investigation PDF file.


----------



## FlyingSpagetti

New PAK-FA (FGFA) Second Flight!

Reactions: Like Like:
43


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## democracyspeaks

Thanks for sharing simply gorgeous

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2


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## genetic_nomad

gorgeous bird this...

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1


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## Kinshuk

Guys at least thank him.. Thank you for sharing...,

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1


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## Canaan

nice bird.
How much will it end up costing, will it become available for export, and how capable will the export variant be?


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## sancho

Canaan said:


> nice bird.
> How much will it end up costing, will it become available for export, and how capable will the export variant be?



Possibly 80 -100 million and yes there will be an export version, but even the capabilities of the actual version is unclear so far, so that will take some more time.


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## Mirza Jatt

great video...


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## Indiarox

FlyingSpagetti said:


> New PAK-FA (FGFA) Second Flight!
> 
> YouTube - Russian Stealth Fighter Test Flight


i saw the video don't to seam to look like a twin seater


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## Marxist

great video...Thanks for sharing


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## Kompromat

Great video , though i have downloaded it before.


----------



## SpArK

Indiarox said:


> i saw the video don't to seam to look like a twin seater



They havent started testing the twin seater prototype which is for India- FGFA


----------



## sancho

LT.PRATEEK said:


> Sancho , Great video
> 
> 2things that struck me immediately
> 
> At start of video - Nose size , superbly designed and space like f22 to house Niip- Masterpiece.
> Lift during take off - So smooth when on a demo engine with lower thrust , just shows the shear power of 117s plant.



Hi Prateek, do you know what striked me? At 1:04 we can see TVC nozzels and as far as I remember the prototype that made the first flight didn't had this capability right?
But you are right the S 117 seems to be a great engine and I hope that we will get it with the MKI upgrade too.


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## ptldM3

Looks great.


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## KEETARP

^^^^^^
Yup , correct . I think it had more to do with testing of Flying control surfaces and nFCS onboard this machine . So might be possible this is the first time Nozzles were deviated .
LEVCONS/LERX are so huge , i never imagined them so huge , even covering front intakes part


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## KS

ptldM3 said:


> Looks great.



Looks like u Russkies havent lost ur touch for making friggin sexy fighters.....
Good for u...good for us...

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## ptldM3

Karthic Sri said:


> Looks like u Russkies havent lost ur touch for making friggin sexy fighters.....
> Good for u...good for us...



Thanks, lets wait and see how the final varient will look, it's interesting because the prototype pak-fa was built before India joined the project, so it will be interesting how much influence the Indians will have on the pak-fa and it will also be interesting to see how much difference the fgfa will have to the pak-fa.


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## KEETARP

^^^^^^^^
Hi ptldM3 , you have flown Jet yourself Mig if I am not wrong . 
What do you make of this smooth take off in video ???
Engines smoke trail - Hardly see any trace during inflight


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## ptldM3

LT.PRATEEK said:


> ^^^^^^^^
> Hi ptldM3 , you have flown Jet yourself Mig if I am not wrong .
> What do you make of this smooth take off in video ???
> Engines smoke trail - Hardly see any trace during inflight



No i havn't flown jets, just civilian aircraft, the takeoff seems just like any other, but it was interesting to see the LERX and the fully moving vertical stabs.

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## Kinetic

Excellent... marvelous... really it looks like the best fighter in the world. Look at different angle.. wow. 

Thanks for sharing.

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## Kinetic

Many things are pretty much clear from the video,

1) The building quality, shapes, joints are excellent as for first prototype. The final aircraft will much better.

2) They tried to give as much as stealth possible from every angle. Look at the cockpit, how it differs from SU-30 and F-22. 

3) Very very complex flight control system needed. As you mentioned huge LERX, all moving tail, TVC in addition to wings controls.

4) The engines are Saturn 117S as expected, the same on SU-35BM. The final one for PAK FA will be more stealthy design and more thrust.

*Though we had to put huge money on PAK FA, I think its one of the best deal for India in 21st century. No matter what happens, by 2020 with FGFA our air force will lead in something that no one has outside US and Russia. We urgently needed a good fifth generation fighter due to increased complexities of PLAAF to take an edge. Note my words one day this FGFA will save our nation.... it will make difference.... *

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## marcos98

its luv at first flight for me...........simply awsome......
thanks for sharing....waiting for FGFA

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1


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## Luftwaffe

Awesome video..looks good.

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1


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## brahmastra

tell the guy at 0:42 to post the pics he took.

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1


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## genmirajborgza786

looks really cool


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## arya-is-here

well truly and frankly its cool


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## Indiarox

cool video
guys 1 question how do you up load videos??


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## Mirza Jatt

Indiarox said:


> cool video
> guys 1 question how do you up load videos??



just copy the entire url from the adress bar and paste it here...ASAT.


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## Indiarox

self delete


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## Indiarox

self delete


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## marcos98

*New anti-G suits being developed for PAK-FA*

: TOMILINO, near Moscow May 18

The research and production corporation Zvezda has made trial samples of the anti-G suit and other life-support systems for pilots flying G5 fighter jets, and are testing them, Zvezda General Director and General Designer Sergei Pozdnyakov told Interfax-AVN.

&#8220;The anti-G suit, the partial-pressure helmet and the oxygen mask are being developed as part of a plan to create the G5 fighter jet. The centrifuge testing has got underway. The entire testing program will last until the end of the year,&#8221; Pozdnyakov said.

&#8220;The aircraft designers have created a super-maneuverable plane.

But the pilot must have a reliable life support system at his disposal to cope with maneuvers and g-loads. The life support system under development will allow the pilot to conduct air battles of any complexity,&#8221; he said.

The anti-G suit&#8217;s primary mission is to prevent the outflow of blood from the head to the feet and to ease the crushing strain. The pilot won&#8217;t lose consciousness if such measures are taken,&#8221; said Pozdnyakov.

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## Prometheus

that beast should be in chains


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## Luftwaffe

Prometheus is the fan of StarGate SG-1


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## satishkumarcsc

Now I am thinking that the $10 billion is a bang for the buck from the Indian side


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## Prometheus

luftwaffe said:


> Prometheus is the fan of StarGate SG-1



I am also ur fan


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## Archie

Canaan said:


> nice bird.
> How much will it end up costing, will it become available for export, and how capable will the export variant be?



around 100 mil$ , exports will begin after Russian and indian orders are complete 
Russia has a requirement of 430 aircraft ,while india has ordered 200,
however indian order may rise to 270-300 depending upon the strategic requirement of airfoce , just as in the case of su30mki
whose order increased from 190 to 270
Brasil will most probably be the first export customer 
Capability of the export variant depends on how russia percieves the buyer , or wether india has something to say about it , coz we are investing 7 billion $ in the project and contributing 25% to development


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## Avatar

This is what I call Russian Beauty !


----------



## sohan

Archie said:


> around 100 mil$ , exports will begin after Russian and indian orders are complete
> Russia has a requirement of 430 aircraft ,while india has ordered 200,
> however indian order may rise to 270-300 depending upon the strategic requirement of airfoce , just as in the case of su30mki
> whose order increased from 190 to 270
> Brasil will most probably be the first export customer
> Capability of the export variant depends on how russia percieves the buyer , or wether india has something to say about it , coz we are investing 7 billion $ in the project and contributing 25% to development



Wrong.

250 each.

200 double seaters, 50 single seaters for India.

Vice versa for Russia.


----------



## Canaan

Archie said:


> around 100 mil$ , exports will begin after Russian and indian orders are complete
> Russia has a requirement of 430 aircraft ,while india has ordered 200,
> however indian order may rise to 270-300 depending upon the strategic requirement of airfoce , just as in the case of su30mki
> whose order increased from 190 to 270
> Brasil will most probably be the first export customer
> Capability of the export variant depends on how russia percieves the buyer , or wether india has something to say about it , coz we are investing 7 billion $ in the project and contributing 25% to development



Well remember that Syria is becoming a strategic partner to Russia in the Middle East, as the Russians are in the progress of moving their Black Sea fleet (nuclear) to Tartus in Syria.
So would Syria, if they can afford it, be able to acquire a potent version ?


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## Srinivas

Russian planes are sexy as russian girls i love both


----------



## Indiarox

Canaan said:


> Well remember that Syria is becoming a strategic partner to Russia in the Middle East, as the Russians are in the progress of moving their Black Sea fleet (nuclear) to Tartus in Syria.
> So would Syria, if they can afford it, be able to acquire a potent version ?


I don't think you will the version Russia and India will get, a slightly downgraded one might be on offer(if you can cough up the cash)


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## sudhir007




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## sudhir007




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## gowthamraj

simply a greeeeeaaaaaaaatttttttt video


----------



## Canaan

Indiarox said:


> I don't think you will the version Russia and India will get, a slightly downgraded one might be on offer(if you can cough up the cash)



If Syria gets it, what are the chances that India will pass on information on the plane to Israel?


----------



## Moscow

Archie said:


> around 100 mil$ , exports will begin after Russian and indian orders are complete
> Russia has a requirement of 430 aircraft ,while india has ordered 200,
> however indian order may rise to 270-300 depending upon the strategic requirement of airfoce , just as in the case of su30mki
> whose order increased from 190 to 270
> Brasil will most probably be the first export customer
> Capability of the export variant depends on how russia percieves the buyer , or wether india has something to say about it , coz we are investing 7 billion $ in the project and contributing 25% to development





south asian media hype 10% true ..........

Reactions: Like Like:
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## sancho

LT.PRATEEK said:


> ^^^^^^
> Yup , correct . I think it had more to do with testing of Flying control surfaces and nFCS onboard this machine . So might be possible this is the first time Nozzles were deviated .
> *LEVCONS/LERX are so huge , i never imagined them so huge , even covering front intakes part*



Not only huge, I never expected that they could be positioned to that degree, really impressive!


----------



## Indiarox

Canaan said:


> If Syria gets it, what are the chances that India will pass on information on the plane to Israel?


nope we wont be passing on any info to Israel.
India does not do that.
If India passes on tech from one country to the other why would U.S.A put the F18sh in the mmrca competition,and would they be selling P-8 Poseidon to us (considering India is an close ally of Russia)
Rest assure India wont be passing on any info to Israel that would in ant way harm or hinder Syria's deffences.


----------



## kaku

xMustiiej70 said:


> But if I compare turkey and india..
> I only see man power more on india.
> And plus if theres a full scale war(hope not) the people that get into army arent trained.
> but just civils with guns.
> SO i think man power dont really play a decisive role.
> Ofcourse it will if you have some couple millions of population.
> But theres 100million turks all over the world.
> With over 50million outside turkey.
> Many are in europe and USA.
> Where they have better health and education then in india.
> weapon stockpile is more on india.
> But how advanced are they?
> and we got ally.
> and many of them.
> Turks have exriences since before christus.
> Terrain advantage are common in turkey.
> They used decisiver rol in the ottoman periods.
> and india has them too.
> economic is way better on his.
> manufacturing is also more on us.
> Industry the same.
> But india has more(ofcourse).
> So i really dont see why comparing turkey to india is tough.
> or even pakistan.
> or even china and russia.



Are you live in a myth world?

If in future a war starts between india and turkey. No European nation and United States support you with military 

only support with dialogue. Every India's true allied european nation(like UK, France, Germany) and United States 

knows that if they sent military to support turkey that will hurt him( Even turkey with the NATO) by loosing several 

trade agreement with India. And also this destabilize this region. 
And you talking about you have best non-nuclear submarine.
But india have nuclear submarine.Around 2-3 submarine india have in 2-3 years(Arihant Class and Nerpa class). 
and also by 2017 india have 2-3 scorpene class submarine.

By 2017 india have 3 aircraft carrier(30 fighters in INS Vikrmaditya, 30 fighters in INS Vikraant and around 50 

fighters in IAC-II)

What you do when around 110 fighters of india are on postion on your mediterranean sea with all fighters capable to 

carry neuclear warhead.

you didn't have stealth frigate like india have shivalik class.
and your nation have no destroyer where india have lots of destroyer(e.g. delhi class, brhamputra class) and in 2-3 

years india get stealth kolkata class destroyer.

What you do when su-30 mki fly in your airspace.
don't live on this myth that f-16 superior than su-30mki
su-30 mki far superior than f-16.

what you do when indian miliatry come throug sea.
and how you come to india.
there is a way by which you can come via iran and pakistan.

And you talking about industry give any detail which you are superior than india in manufacturing.

Your automobile sector are at no. 15 in production in 2009 and india at 6. Your economy not in G-15.

Your nation are no.11 in steel production and india at no.5.

you didn't have any space program. And india have a space program to 3 man in space by 2016 and 
man at moon by 2019

in 2009 your gdp groth is -5.6% and india's gdp growth at 7%

in world you are at no. 23 in forex reserve list and india at no.5

your biggest company by revenue is Koç Holding by $34.84bn and india's tata group revenue around $70bn

14 Turkish companies were listed in the Forbes Global 2000 list for 2008

34 Indian companies have been listed in the Forbes Global 2000 ranking for 2008

Reactions: Like Like:
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## gubbi

Canaan said:


> If Syria gets it, what are the chances that India will pass on information on the plane to Israel?



IMHO, the PAK-FA or its Indian counterpart the FGFA are not for export in the near future. These aircraft deploy the latest in military and aviation tech and IMHO both countries will hold on to the tech till majority of the tech becomes technologically obsolete. Only then, may be, the aircraft will be exported and that too a scaled down version of it.


----------



## gubbi

LT.PRATEEK said:


> ^^^^^^
> Yup , correct . I think it had more to do with testing of Flying control surfaces and nFCS onboard this machine . So might be possible this is the first time Nozzles were deviated .
> LEVCONS/LERX are so huge , i never imagined them so huge , even covering front intakes part



Correct me if I am wrong, but arent these LERX's especially designed, as a secondary role, to act as a diffuser for airflow into engines during supercruise or in supersonic flight?


----------



## sohan

I think we should just stop replying to this Mustie idiot. Thank you all muchly.


----------



## Indiarox

kaku said:


> Are you live in a myth world?
> 
> If in future a war starts between india and turkey. No European nation and United States support you with military
> 
> only support with dialogue. Every India's true allied european nation(like UK, France, Germany) and United States
> 
> knows that if they sent military to support turkey that will hurt him( Even turkey with the NATO) by loosing several
> 
> trade agreement with India. And also this destabilize this region.
> And you talking about you have best non-nuclear submarine.
> But india have nuclear submarine.Around 2-3 submarine india have in 2-3 years(Arihant Class and Nerpa class).
> and also by 2017 india have 2-3 scorpene class submarine.
> 
> By 2017 india have 3 aircraft carrier(30 fighters in INS Vikrmaditya, 30 fighters in INS Vikraant and around 50
> 
> fighters in IAC-II)
> 
> What you do when around 110 fighters of india are on postion on your mediterranean sea with all fighters capable to
> 
> carry neuclear warhead.
> 
> you didn't have stealth frigate like india have shivalik class.
> and your nation have no destroyer where india have lots of destroyer(e.g. delhi class, brhamputra class) and in 2-3
> 
> years india get stealth kolkata class destroyer.
> 
> What you do when su-30 mki fly in your airspace.
> don't live on this myth that f-16 superior than su-30mki
> su-30 mki far superior than f-16.
> 
> what you do when indian miliatry come throug sea.
> and how you come to india.
> there is a way by which you can come via iran and pakistan.
> 
> And you talking about industry give any detail which you are superior than india in manufacturing.
> 
> Your automobile sector are at no. 15 in production in 2009 and india at 6. Your economy not in G-15.
> 
> Your nation are no.11 in steel production and india at no.5.
> 
> you didn't have any space program. And india have a space program to 3 man in space by 2016 and
> man at moon by 2019
> 
> in 2009 your gdp groth is -5.6% and india's gdp growth at 7%
> 
> in world you are at no. 23 in forex reserve list and india at no.5
> 
> your biggest company by revenue is Koç Holding by $34.84bn and india's tata group revenue around $70bn
> 
> 14 Turkish companies were listed in the Forbes Global 2000 list for 2008
> 
> 34 Indian companies have been listed in the Forbes Global 2000 ranking for 2008


You put forward good point man but there is no point in talkin to xMustiiej70
he end up makin a comment like"Turkish F16 are invincible"
or some thin like that so dont waste your time arguing with him


----------



## KEETARP

gubbi said:


> Correct me if I am wrong, but arent these LERX's especially designed, as a secondary role, to act as a diffuser for airflow into engines during supercruise or in supersonic flight?



No , its not , You mean to say those intakes are insufficient for air-flow to compressor fans during super-sonic flight and that is compensated by those LERX .
I dont think so , neither have heard anything like that.
If Sukhoi designers would have felt Air-pressure drop inside they would have added Auxiliary air-intakes either on sides or tail .

What you need for super-cruise is Dry-thrust only ,and those engines apart from Pak-FA are being tested on Su-35 testbed jet where its dry-thrust is sufficient to supercruise Su35 without Lerx acting as diffuser since LEVCONS are absent on su35 . 

Their sole and main purpose is Flight control and providing that excellent air-lift to jet.

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## gambit

gubbi said:


> Correct me if I am wrong, but arent these LERX's especially designed, as a secondary role, to act as a diffuser for airflow into engines during supercruise or in supersonic flight?


If you are thinking something like the F-15's inlet ramps, then it is not possible. Either the movable LERX are dedicated for aerodynamics or they are for inlet air control. Cannot be both because under certain flight conditions, inlet air control computers can demand conflicting surface deflections than flight controls system's. In supersonic flight, the LERX's deflections would be downward to slow down supersonic air prior to the first compressor stage. But that angle would change the air flow at the fuselage-wing connection, possible creating unwanted lift or vortexes or unpredictable airflow. Remember that these later generations of fighters are pretty much lifting bodies.

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## bluefox

xMustiiej70 said:


> *The t-129 will be using a129 model.
> engine from Rah-66 from usa.
> and radar from israel(similar but better then the apache radar).
> besides that.. ALL OF IT IS TURKISH.
> So its like 80% turkish...*
> also..* 214 subs from germany to turkey.
> are german.
> But we filled it with turkish recources.
> which makes it 60% turkish.*
> However its designed by germany ofcourse.
> Turkey is developing MILGEM frigates/corvettes(very high specs) and destroyers/frigates (some call them warships) TF-2000(Best frigate with stealth).
> With better missiles then harpoon from roketsan.
> and better radars etc.. from aselsan.
> Turkey is developing Altay tank.
> Armour from south korea.
> the rest is turkish.
> a prototype will use 100% turkish recources.
> and turkey already developed trainer aircraft.
> 
> Also.. I prefer having 60% turkish made and 40% other country but having the best of the world.
> or one of the best.
> then having typical soviet/russian tech and moderate quality 100% turkish.
> just like india has them.
> Only thing im impressed of india is.. how they managed to get over 1billion population.
> Their entire army is really bad equipped.
> These are said by india itself.
> They had modernization but still it didn't helped much.
> and the training of the turkish armed forces.
> are extremely tough and pretty long.



what?? u have an American engine Israeli Radar and still the heli is 80 % urs??wow..More over U214 are german but u filled it with ls of stuff which makes them 60 % turkish..

*On what basis did u calculate 80% ??are u looking in the weight rato??i mean engine 500-600 kgs radar 200 kgs so 800 kgs foreign parts.Total weight of heli 3-4 tons so 800*100/(4*1000)=20 % foreign parts and hence as rest of iron glass rubber weights 80 % of ur heli the heli is 80 % turkish effort???*

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## razgriz19




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## kaku

I have a question why russia giving us this stealth technology for only money or india was a good ally of former ussr.


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## razgriz19

kaku said:


> I have a question why russia giving us this stealth technology for only money or india was a good ally of former ussr.



the thing is russia needs $$$ for the production cost, and i heard india will pay some of the cost, so thats why they r giving it to u guyz and ofcourse india is their old pal so...


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## below_freezing

after reading this thread, i finally feel like chinese and indians have a common language.

seriously i could not stop laughing when i read the turkish posts.

PAK-FA would roast them.

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## gubbi

gambit said:


> If you are thinking something like the F-15's inlet ramps, then it is not possible. Either the movable LERX are dedicated for aerodynamics or they are for inlet air control. Cannot be both because under certain flight conditions, inlet air control computers can demand conflicting surface deflections than flight controls system's. In supersonic flight, the LERX's deflections would be downward to slow down supersonic air prior to the first compressor stage. But that angle would change the air flow at the fuselage-wing connection, possible creating unwanted lift or vortexes or unpredictable airflow. Remember that these later generations of fighters are pretty much lifting bodies.



Thanks for the clarification. Another question. Do these play a role something akin to inlet ramps during high AoA? The Sukhoi aircraft do have insane AoA!


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## kaku

razgriz19 said:


> the thing is russia needs $$$ for the production cost, and i heard india will pay some of the cost, so thats why they r giving it to u guyz and ofcourse india is their old pal so...



No, i think russia want to invade afganistan together(India and Russia) after total withdraw of NATO-ISAF. and also can also called its other allies.

But i think india not sent its army in afganistan because its cost lots of money and india have lots of internal issue.


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## sancho

kaku said:


> No, i think russia want to invade afganistan together(India and Russia) after total withdraw of NATO-ISAF. and also can also called its other allies.
> 
> But i think india not sent its army in afganistan because its cost lots of money and india have lots of internal issue.



Oh boy!


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## Indian-Devil

kaku said:


> No, i think russia want to invade afganistan together(India and Russia) after total withdraw of NATO-ISAF. and also can also called its other allies.
> 
> But i think india not sent its army in afganistan because its cost lots of money and india have lots of internal issue.



Why is so. Why Russia will invade Afganistan??? Simply cant stop laughing on the way you have kept these baseless comments..


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## mohit

kaku said:


> No, i think russia want to invade afganistan together(India and Russia) after total withdraw of NATO-ISAF. and also can also called its other allies.
> 
> But i think india not sent its army in afganistan because its cost lots of money and india have lots of internal issue.



Huh? 

Did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed today?


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## SpArK

kaku said:


> No, i think russia want to invade afganistan together(India and Russia) after total withdraw of NATO-ISAF. and also can also called its other allies.
> 
> But i think india not sent its army in afganistan because its cost lots of money and india have lots of internal issue.



Are u alright?? are u sure you are in the right forum???


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## Indiarox

kaku said:


> No, i think russia want to invade afganistan together(India and Russia) after total withdraw of NATO-ISAF. and also can also called its other allies.
> 
> But i think india not sent its army in afganistan because its cost lots of money and india have lots of internal issue.


Said like a true noob


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## Parashuram1

A.V. said:


> south asian media hype 10% true ..........



 This is pretty common when it comes to fanboys of military in any country (including countries of South Asia). But I don't think your government would be using that line if you see the number of orders the Indians are placing with your aircraft manufacturers. 

From what I read on this posts both from Pakistanis and Indians, the latter were interested earlier in 230 of your Sukhoi fighters. However, since last year, there has been an increased demand of additional 40-50 of same fighters (with perhaps respective technological updates). I used to consider such news gasbags but after this last deal, I have shut my mouth and not criticized Indians.


----------



## gaurish

kaku said:


> No, i think russia want to invade afganistan together(India and Russia) after total withdraw of NATO-ISAF. and also can also called its other allies.
> 
> But i think india not sent its army in afganistan because its cost lots of money and india have lots of internal issue.



Y afghanistan dude??? americans cant manage afghanistan do u think Indian & russian will be able to control the territory.... and for what reason they want afghanistan???


----------



## gambit

gubbi said:


> Thanks for the clarification. Another question. *Do these play a role something akin to inlet ramps during high AoA?* The Sukhoi aircraft do have insane AoA!


Not exactly certain what you mean there. The F-15's and F-14's movable inlet ramps are to slow down supersonic air. Any air flow over them of course will influence the aerodynamics at that time but the FLCS stability augmentation system would deal with that. Angle of attack is created by rear stab deflections, but the higher the AoA, the less lift available for the airfoil, and that include the lifting body as well.

Prior to computerized stability augmentation system, a pilot would have to learn his aircraft's idiosyncrasies manually, if he pulls back on the stick, it is up to him to know his aircraft's pitch limit lest he stall his wings. And if he does stall, it is up to him to know how to recover. There were no AoA probes back then. But with 'angle of attack probes' (keywords image search) we can program the FLCS computer to limit rear stab deflections *REGARDLESS* of pilot inputs. This is a huge misconception regarding Western fighters where some believe Western fighter designs cannot handle high AoA. These AoA limits are balanced between speed, altitude, pilot input and external loads. The calculations are transparent and designed to avoid pilot induced stall situations. For the Soviet/Russian fighters, those high AoA require exceptional airmanship to handle and recover. They may be available but based upon our investigations and conversations of Soviet trained Eastern European pilots, the airshow high AoA situations are to be avoided. Talk to any pilot and you will find the truth, that none like to approach his aircraft's AoA limits and if the aircraft is designed to prevent him from doing it to himself -- great.







Take a look at the PAK-FA's outline superimposed over the F-22.

I highly suspect the PAK-FA's wide engine spacing, to accommodate 3D thrust vectoring, necessitated the movable leading edge root extension (LERX). The PAK-FA's wing sweep is almost the same as the F-22's. The F-22's wing leading edges has continuous 'slats', which are the front version of trailing edge 'flaps', to increase surface area for lift. The PAK-FA's wing leading edges also does have 'slats' but the designers seem to need more, hence the movable LERX. The wings themselves are comparable to the F-22's wings in terms of surface area:

Sukhoi PAK FA - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


> Wing area: *78.8 m2 (848.1 ft2)*



Aerospaceweb.org | Aircraft Museum - F-22 Raptor


> Wing Area *838 ft² (78.0 m²)*



Not that much different for a clearly larger aircraft -- fuselage-wise. So it looks to me that RCS requirements forced those wing surface area and the desire to match the F-22 maneuverability -- movable LERX -- which remains to be seen if they are detrimental to the low RCS requirements. But then again, it could be argued that because of the movable LERX, the PAK-FA is not in the same RCS class as the F-22 or F-35. Way too early to tell.


----------



## gubbi

gambit said:


> Not exactly certain what you mean there. The F-15's and F-14's movable inlet ramps are to slow down supersonic air. Any air flow over them of course will influence the aerodynamics at that time but the FLCS stability augmentation system would deal with that. Angle of attack is created by rear stab deflections, but the higher the AoA, the less lift available for the airfoil, and that include the lifting body as well.
> 
> Prior to computerized stability augmentation system, a pilot would have to learn his aircraft's idiosyncrasies manually, if he pulls back on the stick, it is up to him to know his aircraft's pitch limit lest he stall his wings. And if he does stall, it is up to him to know how to recover. There were no AoA probes back then. But with 'angle of attack probes' (keywords image search) we can program the FLCS computer to limit rear stab deflections *REGARDLESS* of pilot inputs. This is a huge misconception regarding Western fighters where some believe Western fighter designs cannot handle high AoA. These AoA limits are balanced between speed, altitude, pilot input and external loads. The calculations are transparent and designed to avoid pilot induced stall situations. For the Soviet/Russian fighters, those high AoA require exceptional airmanship to handle and recover. They may be available but based upon our investigations and conversations of Soviet trained Eastern European pilots, the airshow high AoA situations are to be avoided. Talk to any pilot and you will find the truth, that none like to approach his aircraft's AoA limits and if the aircraft is designed to prevent him from doing it to himself -- great.


Thanks for the explanation. I am what you call a greenhorn/noob. So excuse my ignorance.
Correct me if I am wrong here, but at high AoA, the airflow to the engine is not adequate and hence the inlet shape plays an important part? I was thinking that may be the LERX on PAK-FA would be to deflect airflow into the intake at a high AoA.


> Take a look at the PAK-FA's outline superimposed over the F-22.
> 
> I highly suspect the PAK-FA's wide engine spacing, to accommodate 3D thrust vectoring, necessitated the movable leading edge root extension (LERX). The PAK-FA's wing sweep is almost the same as the F-22's. The F-22's wing leading edges has continuous 'slats', which are the front version of trailing edge 'flaps', to increase surface area for lift. The PAK-FA's wing leading edges also does have 'slats' but the designers seem to need more, hence the movable LERX. The wings themselves are comparable to the F-22's wings in terms of surface area:
> 
> Sukhoi PAK FA - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> Aerospaceweb.org | Aircraft Museum - F-22 Raptor
> 
> 
> Not that much different for a clearly larger aircraft -- fuselage-wise. So it looks to me that RCS requirements forced those wing surface area and the desire to match the F-22 maneuverability -- movable LERX -- which remains to be seen if they are detrimental to the low RCS requirements. But then again, it could be argued that because of the movable LERX, the PAK-FA is not in the same RCS class as the F-22 or F-35. Way too early to tell.



As you said that the surface area of wings of both aircraft is comparable, but isnt the want of a greater surface area compensated in PAK-FA by the flat underbelly between the widely spaced engines? Like you said in you previous post, these fighters are basically lifting bodies!


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## marcos98



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## ptldM3

http://img72.imageshack.us/i/pakfahires4.jpg/

http://img30.imageshack.us/i/pkafas.jpg/

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## gambit

gubbi said:


> Thanks for the explanation. I am what you call a greenhorn/noob. So excuse my ignorance.
> Correct me if I am wrong here, but at high AoA, the airflow to the engine is not adequate and hence the inlet shape plays an important part? I was thinking that may be the LERX on PAK-FA would be to deflect airflow into the intake at a high AoA.


The 'angle-of-attack' is relative to the direction of the body. Let me put it this way...



The AoA for the above F-15 is: 0. Air is entering the engines just fine. Look at the inlet ramps and you will see they are quite neutral.



gubbi said:


> As you said that the surface area of wings of both aircraft is comparable, but isnt the want of a greater surface area compensated in PAK-FA by the flat underbelly between the widely spaced engines? Like you said in you previous post, these fighters are basically lifting bodies!


These aircrafts are more like body-wing blended rather than true lifting bodies.



You need wings in order to make turns like the F-15 above. The PAK-FA's movable LERX are to change the body's upper surface area. Try this NASA educational source for starter...

Effect of Shape on Lift

A body-wing blended design must still obey the aerodynamic laws that governs airfoil.


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## sancho

Some more pics (click on the links below for a closer view):






http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/2841/img6445c.jpg






http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/8466/img6447l.jpg






http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/649/0faw2407.jpg






http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/915/0faw2425.jpg






http://img594.imageshack.us/img594/4606/dsc04844f.jpg






http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/8093/dsc04846eg.jpg






http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/8872/img4377x.jpg


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## marcos98

pak-fa spotted......

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## peacemaker10

Very detailed report about PAK-FA and its technology compared to F-22 and F-35

Assessing the Sukhoi PAK-FA / ????????????? ??????????? ???????? ????????? ???????


----------



## Haanzo

THE MOST SE.XIEST PAK-FA PICK TILL DATE ........and my new wallpaper

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## Schindler

Haanzo i must say that Pak-Fa doesn't look like prototype at all. It looks like its ready to kill already. imagine when Pak-Fa gets ready. Am very big fan of russian jet fighters. Pak-Fa is sleek slim trim stealth beauty. i seen F-35 and i wonder how agile would it be. F-35 looks like slow, bit fat, bit baby face and more into stealth while pak-Fa looks like stealth, fast, furious, deadly, letheal. Hats off to russian. Am proud india part of Pak-Fa and soon FGFA will get ready to fly.


----------



## ISRO

Schindler said:


> Haanzo i must say that Pak-Fa doesn't look like prototype at all. It looks like its ready to kill already. imagine when Pak-Fa gets ready. Am very big fan of russian jet fighters. Pak-Fa is sleek slim trim stealth beauty. i seen F-35 and i wonder how agile would it be. F-35 looks like slow, bit fat, bit baby face and more into stealth while pak-Fa looks like stealth, fast, furious, deadly, letheal. Hats off to russian. Am proud india part of Pak-Fa and soon FGFA will get ready to fly.



which one India got first ... Pakfa or FGFA


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## Indiarox

ISRO said:


> which one India got first ... Pakfa or FGFA


PAKFA and then FGFA


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## Haanzo

@Schindler irrespective of how good it looks now i expect major changes in the aft underbelly of the jet and he cockpit ...dont forget the intake ducts, single piece canopy like the f-16 ...these will be definite changes ...and i do believe these changes will contribute to its overall appearance too in the positive way

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## KEETARP

Kinshuk said:


> Can someone tell me if GOI and Russia have signed all the necessary documents, with regards to PAKFA development?





LT.PRATEEK said:


> *No not at all , not a single document has been signed *.
> Problem is Russians want to offer *A Phased manner JV* that is JV for diff phases of development of FGFA not a single JV .
> This is what is *holding up Signing* .
> *Second thing is ,
> some End-user monitoring and IP protection issue which Russians want similar to Indo-US agreement*



*Real good news on this front* , 
Problems that I was talking about time back that held up signing the Phased- JV with Russians seems like over . India may well advance with FGFA without signing up any more JV agreement 

Russian-Indian work on 5G fighter to go ahead without extra deal | Defense | RIA Novosti



> *Russian-Indian work on 5G fighter to go ahead without extra deal*
> 17:51 11/06/2010
> Russian aircraft holding Sukhoi has no plans to sign additional agreements creating a joint venture with its Indian partners in the production of a fifth-generation fighter, the general director said on Friday.
> Russian Sukhoi holding and Indian Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) agreed in early 2010 to jointly develop a fifth-generation stealth fighter jet.
> Sukhoi head Mikhail Pogosyan had said that an additional agreement would be signed specifying the Indian role in the project, but on Friday he said that the Russian company hoped work would begin soon without any such deal.
> "We don't plan to sign a joint venture. We have agreed on joint work with our Indian colleagues," Pogosyan said.
> He said the joint work could be carried out under the current agreement.
> "We will do our part of the work, our Indian counterparts theirs," Pogosyan said. "At the initial stage it is not necessary to have a joint venture."
> Earlier, HAL was reported to be seeking a 25% share in design and development in the project.
> Russia has been developing its fifth-generation fighter since the 1990s. The current prototype, known as the T-50, was designed by the Sukhoi design bureau and built at a plant in Komsomolsk-on-Amur, in Russia's Far East.
> Russian officials have already hailed the fighter as "a unique warplane" that combines the capabilities of an air superiority fighter and attack aircraft.
> PARIS, June 11 (RIA Novosti)







Russian-Indian work on 5G fighter to go ahead without extra deal | Defense | RIA Novosti


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## ironman




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## gubbi

*Putin meets 'Stealth': PAK FA T-50 fighter jet presentation*








> June 17, 2010 &#8212; Russia's Prime Minister Vladimir Putin is personally overseeing the country's efforts to create one of the most advanced fighter jets in the world. He stopped by the Zhukovsky airfield outside Moscow to watch a test flight of the Sukhoi T-50 jet. The plane features an array of technical and design innovations. Sukhoi, the company behind it, says it'll be a few more years before the fifth-generation jet is ready for mass production.



Notice the short takeoff distance, and goes almost vertical immediately after takeoff. Those engines must be some beasts! Check out 00:56 to 1:02, some really nice maneuvers lazily done!

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## 1000VA

*Is this a weapon bay ?*


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## gubbi

1000VA said:


> *Is this a weapon bay ?*



Apparently yes. Its speculated that it may house a A-A missile each.


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## ptldM3

http://img340.imageshack.us/i/4zu6pt.jpg/

http://img52.imageshack.us/i/hgfhytnjy.jpg/

http://img441.imageshack.us/i/jtyjytrjrytj.jpg/





http://img194.imageshack.us/i/jytjtyj76.jpg/

http://img33.imageshack.us/i/jytjytjyt.jpg/

http://img208.imageshack.us/i/jytmuytumuy.jpg/

http://img696.imageshack.us/i/mhtgmuyjmyu.jpg/

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## ptldM3

http://img594.imageshack.us/i/tdghernt5y4mn.jpg/

We should also see another prototype by the end of this year.

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## Nishan_101

That's what i always called *"The Russian Beauty"*. Go Russia Go


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## Marxist

*Putin boasts new jet fighter better than U.S. plane*

Putin watched a test flight of a "fifth-generation" stealth fighter, dubbed the T-50 and billed as Russia's first all-new warplane since the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991.

"This machine will be superior to our main competitor, the F-22, in terms of maneuverability, weaponry and range," Putin told the pilot after the flight, according to an account on the government website.

Putin said the plane would cost up to three times less than similar aircraft in the West and could remain in service for 30 to 35 years with upgrades, according to the report.

Successful development of the fighter, built by Sukhoi, is crucial to showing Russia can challenge U.S. technology and modernize its military after a period of post-Soviet decay.

Russia also plans to manufacture T-50s jointly with India.

The F-22 raptor stealth fighter first flew in 1997 and is the only fifth-generation fighter in service. Fifth-generation aircraft have advanced flight and weapons control systems and can cruise at supersonic speeds.

According to the government website, the test pilot told Putin the controls of the T-50 allowed the pilot to operate most of the plane's systems without taking his hands off the joystick, which he said would be very useful under high forces of gravity.

*"I know, I've flown," Putin replied. Sukhoi has said the plane should be ready for use in 2015.*

Putin boasts new jet fighter better than U.S. plane | Reuters

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## Jazzbot

awesome pics..


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## Nishan_101

Can anyone tell me is india still committed to the project or not, or they are just going to buy or licence produced it in future. And when it will be completed like by 2016 and start its exports in 2018 to india and others. Tell me the Estimated cost with and without spares, weapons and training.


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## Marxist

Nishan_101 said:


> Can anyone tell me is india still committed to the project or not, or they are just going to buy or licence produced it in future. And when it will be completed like by 2016 and start its exports in 2018 to india and others. Tell me the Estimated cost with and without spares, weapons and training.



yes India is still on project,but no joint venture agreement for now on FGFA project.HAL will make FGFA for IAF.


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## gubbi

Putin visiting PAK-FA facility!


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## gubbi

Some more! N-Joi

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## xMustiiej70

So PAK-FA is made to be compared to the f35..
Since f35 has find an amazing way... to increase internal armament payload of atleast 50&#37;.
It has the same capability as the f22 on air to air.
and since the americans always had the best techs and avionics..
how is pak-fa going to be a challange for the f35?


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## gubbi

xMustiiej70 said:


> So PAK-FA is made to be compared to the f35..
> Since f35 has find an amazing way... to increase internal armament payload of atleast 50&#37;.
> It has the same capability as the f22 on air to air.
> and since the americans always had the best techs and avionics..
> how is *pak-fa going to be a challange for the f35*?



We actually have no idea at this point of time. Since this is just a prototype, it would be prudent to wait for the final product to match its capabilities with other aircraft.

btw, if you want to indulge, there are many threads speculating and comparing PAK-FA' tech with that of F-22 or F-35. Lets keep this particular thread for the sole purpose of pleasuring ourselves with PAK-FA ****.

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## gubbi

And some moar!!

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## jha

awesome collection sir...a treat as always..

BTW Putin seems more active than current premier..i hope he becomes president again..


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## Kinetic

Excellent. The pic shows its extreme maneuverability!!! They should change the color in coming aircrafts though.


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## sancho

Kinetic said:


> Excellent. The pic shows its extreme maneuverability!!! They should change the color in coming aircrafts though.



Also take a closer look at the take off, it again starts without the use of afterburners, which should tell us something about its thrust and speed!

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## sancho

Anbody intersted in 74 pages of infos and pics about Pak Fa? Most of the are shown here before, but it still should very interesting to have all these infos combined:

http://www.afa.org/edop/2010/PAK-FA'sFirstFlighton29JAN10REV5.pdf


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## Nishan_101

Salam, I want to ask a question to the senior and Admins(if really have some credible information) that is really India is 50% partner in this Pak-Fa project or not. Or India is just going to produce it under licence or *Will it be exported by the Russia as it is a superior stealth technology being comaprable to U.S*


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## sirius4u

Nishan_101 said:


> Salam, I want to ask a question to the senior and Admins(if really have some credible information) that is really India is 50% partner in this Pak-Fa project or not. Or India is just going to produce it under licence or *Will it be exported by the Russia as it is a superior stealth technology being comaprable to U.S*



India does have a share in this program... But it will be limited to avionics and some knowledge in composites... overall percentage will come upto 33%... Surely not 50%...


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## anathema

gubbi said:


> We actually have no idea at this point of time. Since this is just a prototype, it would be prudent to wait for the final product to match its capabilities with other aircraft.
> 
> btw, if you want to indulge, there are many threads speculating and comparing PAK-FA' tech with that of F-22 or F-35. Lets keep this particular thread for the sole purpose of pleasuring ourselves with PAK-FA ****.



I cant help but say this ...the workmanship of American planes just looks and seems much better than Russians....
And before any one says that "this is a just a proto-type" ...well so was YF23....

Anyways you get what you paid for...PAKFA has been developed on a fraction of budget..... and looks like it is going to be one of the most maneuverable planes around !!


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## Hindustan Fighter

Nishan_101 said:


> Salam, I want to ask a question to the senior and Admins(if really have some credible information) that is really India is 50&#37; partner in this Pak-Fa project or not. Or India is just going to produce it under licence or *Will it be exported by the Russia as it is a superior stealth technology being comaprable to U.S*



PAK FA and Indian FGFA are 2 different projects. However FGFA will be a derivative of PAK FA i.e. design platform will be based on PAK FA, there might be further refinement in the design and material composition to be used in FGFA. Also the internal cockpit design will be different for FGFA than that of PAK-FA since it will be co-developed with Indian counter parts. 
PAK-FA will be completely Russian product, FGFA is JV between India and Russia. Both will be 50% financing partner and Indian conterpart will bare in 25% development responsibility for FGFA only.


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## WAQAS119

*It looks super sexy from this angle*










*but super sh1t from other angles.*


















no offense intended


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## Hindustan Fighter

WAQAS119 said:


> *It looks super sexy from this angle*
> 
> 
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> 
> *but super sh1t from other angles.*
> 
> 
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> 
> no offense intended



However it will take **** out of any other fighter from any of it's angle.
No offense intended

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## trident2010

^^ LoL


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## WAQAS119

Kinda too small weapon bay!!!!!!!!!!!
how many missiles it can carry??

doesn't look like more than four.!!!


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## Kinetic

WAQAS119 said:


> *It looks super sexy from this angle*
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> *but super sh1t from other angles.*
> 
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> 
> no offense intended



No offense but most of the people will think reverse. From the bottom it looks like F-22 but from other angles it look much much sexier and deadly. The design is just awesome. Specially the nose and tail parts....


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## Agnostic_Indian

WAQAS119 said:


> Kinda too small weapon bay!!!!!!!!!!!
> how many missiles it can carry??
> 
> doesn't look like more than four.!!!



I dont know the numbers but i heard more than what f22 is capable of.


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## Dark Angel

WAQAS119 said:


> Kinda too small weapon bay!!!!!!!!!!!
> how many missiles it can carry??
> 
> doesn't look like more than four.!!!






It will carry 50% more weapons then f-22 so have a guess


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## ptldM3



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## ptldM3

Full set here:

???? Pilot&#8217;? 16 ????? ??? ?????? ????? ?????? ??? ??.

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## sancho

@ ptldM3

I saw Pak Fa using TVC in an earlier video on the ground, but I don't think they used it in the latest flight tests or?


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## ptldM3

sancho said:


> @ ptldM3
> 
> I saw Pak Fa using TVC in an earlier video on the ground, but I don't think they used it in the latest flight tests or?



I don't know if they used it in the latest test flight but i would image that after 16+ test flights it was used at some point.

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## Neither Right Nor Wrong

WAQAS119 said:


> Kinda too small weapon bay!!!!!!!!!!!
> how many missiles it can carry??
> 
> doesn't look like more than four.!!!



8 in internal bays.
8 on external pylons.

Assessing the Sukhoi PAK-FA / ????????????? ??????????? ???????? ????????? ???????


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## soaringphnx

Thanks guys for such wonderful pics!!!!


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## sudhir007




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## sudhir007




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## soaringphnx

A very realistic concept image:

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## gowthamraj

^no way it going to be realistic. Please look upcurve in cockpit


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## marcos98

realistic Ps stuff.......cool one though

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## marcos98

smooth curve this one has.....


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## anoopsaxena76

anathema said:


> I cant help but say this ...the workmanship of American planes just looks and seems much better than Russians....
> And before any one says that "this is a just a proto-type" ...well so was YF23....
> 
> Anyways you get what you paid for...PAKFA has been developed on a fraction of budget..... and looks like it is going to be one of the most maneuverable planes around !!



You may be right about the workmanship bit but lately I am hearing a lot of "money and quality."

I do not deny that money buys quality but the guys who put that argument do not understand is that the material cost and other costs in other countries like India and Russia are much less than the costs in the US. 

While inapt to some, but those who would think deeper would get the connection, the cost of a book in US runs into tens of Dollars. While the same book is available in India for less than 10% of the cost and I do not know how many of you have read books from Mir publications. They were cheaper than Indian books. 

So when you talk about quality and money, please do not apply Dollar value to it.

Regards,
Anoop.

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## marcos98



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## soaringphnx

marcos98 said:


>



This is the best PAK FA pic I've seen till now... Thanks for sharing!

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## COLDHEARTED AVIATOR

marcos98 said:


>



It would look better in IAF's colour than VVS's colour.


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## SpArK

*PHOTOS: PAK-FA Flight Demo For Indian Delegation On Aug 31*













Livefist - The Best of Indian Defence: PHOTOS: PAK-FA Flight Demo For Indian Delegation On Aug 31

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## redpearl75

---------- Post added at 04:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:17 PM ----------

Looks awesome....


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## DANGER-ZONE

*beautiful indeed*




*Bewitching aerobatics of the Sukhoi PAK FA! Perspektivny Aviatsionny Kompleks Frontovoy Aviatsii (Future Frontline Aircraft System), is a fifth-generation jet fighter being developed by Sukhoi OKB for the Russian Air Force*.




*The Sukhoi PAK FA - Perspektivny Aviatsionny Kompleks Frontovoy Aviatsii (Future Frontline Aircraft System), is a fifth-generation jet fighter being developed by Sukhoi OKB for the Russian Air Force*


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## redpearl75

Guys, pls don't laugh at me but I didn't notice the Canards on PAK-FA.. It's just now that I have... Silly me....


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## sudhir007

http://www.dni.ru/economy/2010/9/8/198600.html

The volume of export deliveries of Russian fifth generation fighter Sukhoi could exceed 600 units. However, depending on the development of international situation and the emergence of new hotbeds of tension in various regions of the world supply volumes of T-50 can be adjusted. Such predictions are given analysis center of the world arms trade.
"According to the forecast of experts of our Center, as part of the production program promising aviation complex tactical aviation in Russia will be built at least thousands of these fighters, with the expected order of Russian Air Force during the years 2020-2040 with a favorable economic scenario of the country will make at least 400-450 machines ", - said director of Center for Analysis of the global arms trade Igor Korotchenko.
According to him, a real competitor to the T-50 in the foreseeable future there will be only the F-35 Lightning II, as heavy version of the U.S. fifth generation fighter F-22 because its too costly - about $ 250 million per aircraft in the export performance - barely I find the demand on the world arms market.
It clarifies the RIA Novosti, only India is planning to have a battle of its air force is not less than 250 fifth-generation fighter.

Experts identify more than a dozen countries that are potential and the most likely buyers of Russian T-50. Among them were: Algeria with the alleged purchase of 24-36 fifth-generation fighter in the period of 2025-2030 years, Argentina - 12-24 units in the years 2035-2040, Brazil - 24-36 units in the years 2030-2035, Venezuela - 24 - 36 units in the years 2027-2032, Vietnam - 12-24 units in the years 2030-2035, Egypt - 12-24 units in the years 2040-2045. Also on the list referred to Indonesia (6-12 units in the years 2028-2032), Iran (36-48 units in the years 2035-2040), Kazakhstan (12-24 units in the years 2025-2035), China (up 100 units in 2025 -2035 years), Libya (12-24 units in the years 2025-2030), Malaysia (12-24 units in the years 2035-2040) and Syria (12-24 units in the years 2025-2030).

Google Translate


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## ptldM3

redpearl75 said:


> Guys, pls don't laugh at me but I didn't notice the Canards on PAK-FA.. It's just now that I have... Silly me....



Those arn't canards, those are LEREX.

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## redpearl75

ptldM3 said:


> Those arn't canards, those are LEREX.



Thanks buddy, but I guess it gives the same performance benefit as that of a canard... Correct me if Im wrong but it will enhance the performane to a great extent...


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## Kinetic

PAK FA pics...

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## Ghostwhowalks

Simply stunning pic.....thanks for sharing


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## junaid1

beautiful russian bird


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## lionheart1

pak-fa can fly at 150,000ft..is it true,


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## Devianz

lionheart1 said:


> pak-fa can fly at 150,000ft..is it true,




No it can't. Maximum 60,000ft.


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## Dark Angel

lionheart1 said:


> pak-fa can fly at 150,000ft..is it true,





*Do you live on the moon buddy *


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## sudhir007

Warplanes: Stealthy Robots Stalk The T-50

September 14, 2010: The Russian answer to the American F-22, the T-50, first flew earlier this year, and has made 18 flights so far this year. The T-50 is a prototype, and the Russians are still doing a lot of tinkering. While the T-50 is the stealthiest aircraft the Russians have, it is not nearly as stealthy as the F-22, or even the F-35 or B-2. The Russians are apparently going to emphasize maneuverability instead of stealth. But they are having problems perfecting the engines for the T-50, and the defensive electronics. This puts the T-50 at a big disadvantage against the F-22 or F-35, which try to detect enemy aircraft at long distance, without being spotted, and then fire a radar guided missile (like AMRAAM).

The T-50 is not an entirely new design, like the F-22. The T-50 was developed from the Su-27, which it is to eventually replace. As part of this process, another development aircraft, the Su-35, was created. This aircraft first flew two years ago. The Su-35 contains a lot of the technologies that are going into the T-50. Three years ago the Russian Air Force showed off the first of two flyable prototypes of the Su-35. Less than four years ago Russia announced its long promised Su-35 fighter was back in development again. The Su-35 is an enhanced Su-30 (itself a development of the Cold War era Su-27), and has been in development for over a decade. At one point, it was called the Su-37, but the name was changed back to Su-35. A dozen or more Su-35 prototypes have been built, and apparently no two are identical. This is typical for Russian aircraft development. They prefer to produce many incremental improvements, rather than make a huge jump to a very different new model. Thus you can trace an evolution from the Su-27 to the T-50.

The Russians want to sell their "Fifth Generation Fighter" (the T-50, which they admit is not true 5th Gen) to China, India and other foreign customers. There is already a deal for India to develop its own version of the T-50, while contributing some technologies (like lightweight materials) to the basic design. The Indians have announced that their version of the T-50 will be a two seater with longer range than the single seat Russian model. Russia now has the billions of dollars it will take to carry out the T-50 development program. India has become a partner, contributing cash, technology and manufacturing capability.

The T-50 is a 34 ton fighter that is more maneuverable than the 33 ton, Su-27, has much better electronics and is stealthy. It can cruise at above the speed of sound. It also costs at least fifty percent more than the Su-27. That would be some $60 million (for a barebones model, at least 50 percent more with all the options), about what a top-of-the-line F-16 costs. The Su-27 was originally developed to match the F-15, which is larger than the single engine F-16.

Russia is promising a fighter with a life of 6,000 flight hours, and engines good for 4,000 hours. Russia promises world-class avionics, plus a very pilot-friendly cockpit. The use of many thrusters and fly-by-wire will produce an aircraft even more maneuverable than earlier Su-30s (which have been extremely agile).

The T-50 is not meant to be a direct rival for the F-22, because the Russian aircraft is not as stealthy. But if the maneuverability and advanced electronics live up to the promises, the aircraft would be more than a match for every fighter out there except the F-22. If such an T-50 was sold for well under $100 million each, there would be a lot of buyers. Russia says it will begin production, and sales, in five years. That may be too ambitious, but for the moment, the T-50 is the only potential competitor for the F-22 in development. But, as with the F-22, development expenses are increasing, and it looks like the T-50 will cost at least $120 each (including a share of the development cost), but only if 500 or more are manufactured. Only 182 F-22s were built because of the high cost. American developers are now seeking to apply their stealth, and other, technologies, to the development of combat UAVs. Thus by the time the T-50 enters service, in 5-10 years, it may already be made obsolete by cheaper, unmanned, stealthy fighters.


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## Kinetic

^^^ sudhir007, a request pls... never post anything from that website. its full of bias crap. All of that is some day-dreamer's personal views.


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## amalakas

gambit said:


> No...Considerably less expensive. But then...You get what you paid for and...Losing a fight is much more expensive...




Oh come on....!!!!!!! 

It is way way way cheaper than an F-22, the senate rejected a proposal to fund an addititonal 1.75 BILLION $ for 7 ( seven ) yes S E V E N additional F-22s .. 

that is $250million per F 22, at the end of a mature line, with a mature fighter !!! are you serious Gambit ? 


And as I said in my other posts... I don't think your AiM-120s can hit a LO target.... if they could .. well... read my other post in the other thread....


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## razgriz19

*sigh*....i thought this thread was about pics and vids of pak-fa!!!

anywayy to put u guyz back on track here is something...






u can thank me later

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## razgriz19



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## razgriz19




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## marcos98




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## Game is loading

WOOHOO!
India's gonna get 200 or more PAK FA between 2015-2018!!
After all,the PAK FA project is funded by India and India has full share in it.


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## Storm Force

I just wonder How will INDIA change the electronic warefare suite on this.

I think the Indian version will be the same but twin seated.

Will be mkied just like su30mki and packed with israeli electronics and sensors

And carry both Russian and western weapons.

Hope i,m around in 2018 when it flying in Indian Air force full, combat version


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## Kinetic

Some PAK FA pics from KNAAPO site...

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## Kinetic

Some more...

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## FSLN

How come after 20 years of difference between YF-23,YF-22 and the T-50, the Russian 5th gen fighter still looking very crude?..


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## FSLN

Even the defunct YF-23 craftsmanship far exceeds the crude T-50, not only on the craftsmanship but the stealth design seems far superior also and they are both prototype stage planes.

After 20+ years this Awsome bird still looking like a futuristic space craft, I wonder why havent the Chinese Bribe somebody at Boeing to get the design? undecided:

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## ptldM3

FSLN said:


> Even the defunct YF-23 craftsmanship far exceeds the crude T-50, not only on the craftsmanship but the stealth design seems far superior also and they are both prototype stage planes.
> 
> After 20+ years this Awsome bird still looking like a futuristic space craft, I wonder why havent the Chinese Bribe somebody at Boeing to get the design? undecided:



And what do you base your standards of craftsmanship on? Lets see how an FY-23 would look in primer opposed to the pak-fa.

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## FSLN

ptldM3 said:


> And what do you base your standards of craftsmanship on? Lets see how an FY-23 would look in primer opposed to the pak-fa.


there is a saying my friend: A picture is worth a thousand words, too bad I cant post pics here right now(need to post more, 16 I think?) but I am sure you have seen them....


people can still argue that is not a finished product that it will have more changes to come, I will have to wait and see, because right now it looks to crude to me...needs more polishing, edges too rough, intake inlets not so stealthy, and the rear, oh the rear, thats where most of the work needs to be done(maybe they are not going for all-aspect stealth as a high priority)...


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## S.U.R.B.

FSLN said:


> there is a saying my friend: A picture is worth a thousand words, too bad *I cant post pics here right now*(need to post more, 16 I think?) but I am sure you have seen them....
> 
> 
> people can still argue that is not a finished product that it will have more changes to come, I will have to wait and see, because right now it looks to crude to me...needs more polishing, edges too rough, intake inlets not so stealthy, and the rear, oh the rear, thats where most of the work needs to be done(maybe they are not going for all-aspect stealth as a high priority)...


*
YF-23*















*T-50*
















It looks good ,what's wrong with the T-50?


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## Storm Force

WRONG are you mad.

Its the best looking combat lane in the world


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## ptldM3

FSLN said:


> there is a saying my friend: A picture is worth a thousand words, too bad I cant post pics here right now(need to post more, 16 I think?) but I am sure you have seen them....
> 
> 
> people can still argue that is not a finished product that it will have more changes to come, I will have to wait and see, because right now it looks to crude to me...needs more polishing,* edges too rough*,




What on earth does that mean? 






FSLN said:


> intake inlets not so stealthy,






The YF-23 inlets were stealthy? Lets take a look.











FSLN said:


> and the rear, oh the rear, that&#8217;s where most of the work needs to be done(maybe they are not going for all-aspect stealth as a high priority)...




Work on the rear is underway, but even if we assume the rear will not change Sukhoi has done some IR reduction, the insides of the nozzles are coated with ceramic coating and the nozzles themselves have a thick wall of insulation. If an enemy gets close enough to, for example, the F-22 (not going to happen) than even it will be vulnerable, especially from the rear with the engine exposed to radar as well as IRST and heat seeking missiles, from a frontal hemisphere this will not be a problem. 

The pak-fa's engines are similar to the F-35's excluding the saw tooth edges, which, in my opinion, do little for rcs reduction and would probably be irrelevant if the F-35 is coming in from the frontal or rear hemisphere.

People are used to seeing the pak-fa in it's primer, and used to seeing the F-22 and F-35 painted, so naturally the pak-fa looks worse, but lets look and a pak-fa painted and taken with a decent camera, shall we?





Amazing what some paint and a good camera will do, all of the sudden the 'craftsmanship' and 'stealth' looks like it has increased tenfold.


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## FSLN

S.U.R.B. said:


> *
> YF-23*It looks good ,what's wrong with the T-50?


WOW...


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## FSLN

ptldM3 said:


> What on earth does that mean?







ptldM3 said:


> Work on the rear is underway,.


 so after 20+ years we have to wait some more for a modern rear looking stealth airplane...




ptldM3 said:


> Amazing what some paint and a good camera will do, all of the sudden the 'craftsmanship' and 'stealth' looks like it has increased tenfold.


 maybe to you, but to me still looking very crude, I guess I will have to wait to see the final product...


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## ISRO Go!

FSLN said:


> so after 20+ years we have to wait some more for a modern rear looking stealth airplane...
> 
> 
> maybe to you, but to me still looking very crude, I guess I will have to wait to see the final product...


*well,a new troller has arrived..Troller knowing the fact that he does not have any fact..
by the way where does ur country sits in the world map????
*


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## Devianz

FSLN said:


> there is a saying my friend: A picture is worth a thousand words, too bad I cant post pics here right now(need to post more, 16 I think?) but I am sure you have seen them....
> 
> 
> people can still argue that is not a finished product that it will have more changes to come, I will have to wait and see, because right now it looks to crude to me...needs more polishing, edges too rough, intake inlets not so stealthy, and the rear, oh the rear, thats where most of the work needs to be done(maybe they are not going for all-aspect stealth as a high priority)...



Don't know what you are talking about. Anyways if it's about the rivets sticking out of the plane then, those would be covered with a special material. So they won't show up on the final product.


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## FSLN

Devianz said:


> Don't know what you are talking about. Anyways if it's about the rivets sticking out of the plane then, those would be covered with a special material. So they won't show up on the final product.


 well I was just saying that the T-50 is very rough looking, the rivets the clearly not so stealthy behind, the lack of golden one piece canopy, no RAM coated.

I guess thats not a priority at this stage even if the Black Widow and Lightning II did looked more refined 20 years ago(1990 YF-22 Lightning II first flight test), well the Raptor did its first flight test 7 years later, let just hope I dont have to wait that long to see a finish product from sukhoi...


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## Water Car Engineer

ISRO Go! said:


> *well,a new troller has arrived..Troller knowing the fact that he does not have any fact..
> by the way where does ur country sits in the world map????
> *



Its his opinion, chill out..


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## ptldM3

FSLN said:


> well I was just saying that the T-50 is very rough looking, the rivets the clearly not so stealthy behind




The T-50-1 prototype is not build for rcs testing, thus exposed rivets are visible. All aircraft have rivets even the F-35 and F-22. However, those aircraft covered their rivets, lets look at the F-35:





Same with the YF-23.






FSLN said:


> the lack of golden one piece canopy.





What makes you think that a treated canopy build to absorb radar waves has to be gold? The F-35's canopy is not gold.

And what makes you think the pak-fa does not have a treated canopy? Even the SU-35 has a treated canopy.






FSLN said:


> no RAM coated.



No RAM, no problem, it has been established that the T-50-1 is a prototype build for aerodynamics, so it's pointless to apply RAM, especially when the aircraft is fitted with a dozen test sensors outside of the aircraft that hurt the rcs, so applying RAM would be utterly pointless.

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## siegecrossbow

ptldM3 said:


> The T-50-1 prototype is not build for rcs testing, thus exposed rivets are visible. All aircraft have rivets even the F-35 and F-22. However, those aircraft covered their rivets, lets look at the F-35:



I used to think that the "rivet party" was an uniquely Chinese thing but it looks like they've got them in Nicaragua as well lol. Correct me if am wrong but I think the rivets on the F-22 are covered by the stealth coating?


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## FSLN

ptldM3 said:


> The T-50-1 prototype is not build for rcs testing, thus exposed rivets are visible. All aircraft have rivets even the F-35 and F-22. However, those aircraft covered their rivets, lets look at the F-35
> 
> Same with the YF-23..


 well I have seen the F-35 with rivets(never on a flight test. ) but I haven't seen the Raptor or the YF-22/23, do you have pics...






ptldM3 said:


> What makes you think that a treated canopy build to absorb radar waves has to be gold? The F-35's canopy is not gold.
> 
> And what makes you think the pak-fa does not have a treated canopy? Even the SU-35 has a treated canopy..


 well the king of the hill(Raptor) have it right now so that must mean somthing... and Yes I have seen some planes(F-16/SU-35 with treated canopy) 




ptldM3 said:


> No RAM, no problem, it has been established that the T-50-1 is a prototype build for aerodynamics, so it's pointless to apply RAM, especially when the aircraft is fitted with a dozen test sensors outside of the aircraft that hurt the rcs, so applying RAM would be utterly pointless.


 well I guess you are right and I am too obsessed with good looking Birds.... I guess I will have to wait to see those goodies....


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## Devianz

FSLN said:


> Even the defunct YF-23 craftsmanship far exceeds the crude T-50, not only on the craftsmanship but the stealth design seems far superior also and they are both prototype stage planes.
> 
> After 20+ years this Awsome bird still looking like a futuristic space craft, I wonder why havent the Chinese Bribe somebody at Boeing to get the design? undecided:



I'm sorry.. but what YF-23 craftsmanship are you talking about here?



> Photo credit to original uploader MSphere of keypub.


This is how YF-23 looks like without the paste covering rivets and RAM coatings. Compare this to T-50-1 prototypes. T-50-1 is painted now but there is no RAM or special coatings on rivets.

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## Devianz

FSLN said:


> well I have seen the F-35 with rivets(never on a flight test. ) but I haven't seen the Raptor or the YF-22/23, do you have pics...



Sure.... I can post for Raptor also.

*ENJOY*


> Photo credit to original uploader MSphere of keypub.



The above pics show Raptor with RAM coatings and covered rivets(well...kind of).


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## BlackenTheSky

Indeed a beautiful bird..


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## Devianz

FSLN said:


> well I have seen the F-35 with rivets(*never on a flight test*. )



Sorry to burst that bubble...





Same bird posted by ptldM3 during a flight test. The bottom line is... they all start like this and end up being the beautiful piece of art in the end. T-50 is nowhere near that end stage yet.

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## FSLN

Devianz said:


> I'm sorry.. but what YF-23 craftsmanship are you talking about here?.



No fair... the poor bird has being neglected for 20 years, and guess what? even at that neglected point you could say the Russian are barely keeping up, we will have to wait to see the Polished T-50...


----------



## FSLN

Devianz said:


> Sorry to burst that bubble...
> .


 I'll get you fot that...




Devianz said:


> T-50 is nowhere near that end stage yet.


 I guess the T-50 its alot like me then, ALL go and No Show, I used to Own a beat up 1979 Trans Am with a 455 c.i or 7000+cc with a 4 barrel carburator, I was beating the Bejesus out of new corvettes and Hondas Type-R's.... But guess what? hot chicks thought they were faster since they looked so cool....


----------



## marcos98

YouTube - Inverted Kulbit With PAK-FA
YouTube - Tom Clancy's HAWX 2 : T-50 / PAK-FA survival gameplayYouTube - SU T-50 PAK FA

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## brahmastra

looks more stealthy

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## vikramaditya AC

PAK-FA=STEALTH KILLER


----------



## CONNAN

*"Indo-Russian Fifth Gen Fighter? Best Of Luck With That!"*\\


Michael R. Griswold, director of advanced development programmes at Lockheed-Martin was in Delhi recently and met the press for an update on the company's offerings in the Indian MMRCA competition. He spoke at a time when there's been a measure of discussion on the web about the notion that India would do better to buy the F-35 instead of 126 fourth generation fighters. The suggestion was followed by the Defence Secretary outright debunking the possibility of India acquiring a fifth generation fighter other than the PAK_FA/FGFA. Well Mr Griswold said he wasn't equipped to talk about the F-35 for India, but couldn't resist a barb. Nobody can in the airplane business anymore. "The fifth generation JV with Russia? Yeah, well all I can say is best of luck with that," Griswold said.

********************************************************************

what does he mean by the above statement


----------



## CONNAN

Seems like Mr. Griswold wants to undermine the FGFA/PAK-FA, so that he can market the F-35 later on in India.

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## sudhir007

Indian FGFA will be real challenge for American F-22 : German Defense Expert Helmut Hirsch

&#8220;Indian FGFA will be real challenge for American F-22 &#8221; claims German Defense Expert Helmut Hirsch , MR Hirsch in private conversation with our Admin ( idrw.org) , have said that FGFA which will be based on T-50 / Pak-FA will have major design changes to its fuselage due to twin pilot configuration and Indian Expertise in Composite will only enchance Stealth characters of the Aircraft .

MR Hirsch believes that Russians have compromised on stealth to keep the aircraft more maneuverable and under a tight budget to keep per aircraft cost under control , Russians simply cannot afford to have such a expensive plane in large numbers , but Indians seems to have realized that and will be doing 30 &#37; of the design changes to improve stealth characters of the aircraft .

When asked if Indian Version will be more stealthy ? MR Hirsch seems confident on that matter , MR Hirsch also believes that real challenge for F-22 will come from Indian FGFA rather than F-35 or Chinese J-XX. MR Hirsch also adds that Indians will add best of technology (Avionics / Radars / Weapons ) from west in their version which makes it even more lethal then F-35 and a real challenge for F-22&#8242;s Superiority .

MR Hirsch also added that F-22 is excellent aircraft but production of it which will stop just under 200 makes any one believe that aircraft has some real issues which have been kept under wraps but issues of rusting in airframe has already surfaced , and recent reports of USAF already looking for F-22 Replacement by 2030 all points to that direction .

MR Hirsch was also critical of F-35 , and slammed it for being over priced and expensive , and also went on to say that European countries who will ultimately purchase it and are partners in the program could have built among them self a better 5th Gen fighter just like Euro-fighter which he believes can take on F-35 in BVR fight .

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## I want GIRLS!

Can i change my username to 'I want PAK-FA!'?
Its sexier than girls..

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## Bhairava

brahmastra said:


> looks more stealthy



Photo-chop ???


----------



## CONNAN

Gounder said:


> Photo-chop ???



yup


----------



## trident2010



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## marcos98




----------



## Typhoon

An Artists impression!!

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## sancho

Typhoon said:


> An Artists impression!!



Really nice, but can't wait to see one of FGFA!


----------



## MAFIAN GOD

Hey guys can anyone have an idea how FGFA will look?
any 'photo-shoped' pics?


----------



## INDIAN007

MAFIAN GOD said:


> Hey guys can anyone have an idea how FGFA will look?
> any 'photo-shoped' pics?



FGFA prototype will be hopefully Out by next year


----------



## AMCA

MAFIAN GOD said:


> Hey guys can anyone have an idea how FGFA will look?
> any 'photo-shoped' pics?



here you go with a Pic buddy


----------



## sudhir007




----------



## INDIAN007

*HAL FGFA photo under construction*






i came across this picture on a forum - they say this is FGFA under construction in Russia

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## houshanghai



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## rohitshubham

It will surely look better with the tricolor on it


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## aimarraul

why didn't russian design a flat bottom for T-50......they can do better than this


----------



## sancho

INDIAN007 said:


> HAL FGFA photo under construction
> 
> i came across this picture on a forum - they say this is FGFA under construction in Russia



Doesn't look like a twin seat config, so it should be Pak Fa too.



aimarraul said:


> why didn't russian design a flat bottom for T-50......they can do better than this



AFAIK to get more lift capability, the Flanker series, or Mig 29s are using the same design for that reasons too. I prefered a flat fuselage with more space for internal weapons too, but that's depending on what your requirement is I guess.


----------



## sancho

Found this on the MP forum:

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## daanish

awesome looking plane !

it better be as stealthy as f22 ... otherwise its RCS will kill it


----------



## Devianz

Found this on keypub. Not sure whether this has been posted before or not.

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## jha

---------- Post added at 08:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:10 PM ----------


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## rockstarIN

Its air intakes are so huge, wont this make its signature high?


----------



## shrivatsa

deleted wrong thread


----------



## gowthamraj



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## gowthamraj

Cockpit looks ugly to me no match for F-35 in cockpit


----------



## Typhoon

*Comparison between developing PAK-FA and developed F-22*

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## Typhoon



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## Typhoon



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## Storm Force

<object width="640" height="390"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/8n-as2sooJU&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&version=3"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/8n-as2sooJU&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&version=3" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="640" height="390"></embed></object>


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## Gabbar



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## Achuyut

Honestly nothing beats the Raptor in looks.


----------



## Gabbar

Achuyut said:


> Honestly nothing beats the Raptor in looks.



Looks can be deceiving, its all about the performance and what it can do. And yes for what $$$$$$$$$$$$$.


----------



## Trampler

You just have to change the colour of this "Enemy's nightmare" and then see for yourself


----------



## IND151

*



Honestly nothing beats the Raptor in looks.

Click to expand...

* i disagree with you. PAK fa looks cooler than f 22.


----------



## jagjitnatt

IND151 said:


> i disagree with you. PAK fa looks cooler than f 22.



All depends on the angle, paint scheme, and environment. It can make Mig-21 look better than the Raptor.

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## IND151

*



All depends on the angle, paint scheme, and environment. It can make Mig-21 look better than the Raptor.

Click to expand...

*may be but still t 50 looks so cool!


----------



## KS

Offtopic - but nothing beats the *Fulcrum* ( ) in looks.

Feel free to disagree.


----------



## Dash

Karthic Sri said:


> Offtopic - but nothing beats the *Fulcrum* ( ) in looks.
> 
> Feel free to disagree.


You mean the curves she has


----------



## paritosh

ptldM3 said:


> Nothing is known for sure, the nozzles may end up resembling the ones used on the F-22, even if Sukhoi does us Raptor style nozzles ( two dimentional) it doesn't mean it will be limited to 2D TVC.



even the mig-35 has 3d thrust vectoring doesn't it?


----------



## nightcrawler

PAK FA Air International - Fullscreen
*no need to download the file; streaming *.pdf file*
Pakistan-FA Latest updates includes the following items that really intrigue me.

Development of a versatile satellite guided missile missile ~KH-38
Introduction of 'quick-bay' concept for storing short-range air-to-air missile ~R73 & the likes of R60
Surprised by no rear-mounted radar plan in the coming T-50 planes
 Static-instability enhanced for manoeuvring even in supersonic flights
Completely saw-toothed bottoms & gear bays
TVC movement only vertical but still tuned (in a way) to vector thrust in 360 degree (do read about this!! )

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## Bigoren

nice russian product


----------



## jack220

Nice Product for India


----------



## blackops

Well guys mig 29 is the miss universe in jets she just looks so awsum 
sorry for going off topic


----------



## Devianz

Self delete


----------



## xMustiiej70

so hows this 100% INDIGENOUS INDIAN toy doing?
btw the look of f35 and f22 is way more badass then that russian plane


----------



## Ammyy

xMustiiej70 said:


> so hows this 100% INDIGENOUS INDIAN toy doing?
> btw the look of f35 and f22 is way more badass then that russian plane



But 100% indigenous Indians are not depends on USA for every thing like you 

We can get every thing that we want (F35 offered to India)

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## xMustiiej70

It's funny how you still can't see my sarcasm.
but meh.. pak fa is gonna be other bad russian plane.
Well if you can get it.. then get it!
oh wait..


----------



## Ammyy

xMustiiej70 said:


> It's funny how you still can't see my sarcasm.
> but meh.. pak fa is gonna be other bad russian plane.
> Well if you can get it.. then get it!
> oh wait..





Dnt you know we like Bad planes and reject good planes 

India Rejects U.S. F-35 JSF Offer; Military Industry Today Provides Complete Coverage

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## xMustiiej70

I'm, at school.
But I'm always bad in langauges..
but meh..yours is not perfect either.

---------- Post added at 02:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:28 PM ----------

but OT: Does India get technology from this airplane?
otherwise it's worthless.


----------



## IndianArmy

xMustiiej70 said:


> but OT: Does India get technology from this airplane?
> otherwise it's worthless.



India gets the Technology or TOT for FGFA,... But India's Technical contributions to the development of this aircraft would be limited to not more than 40%, But Monetarily India would be an Equal Partner


----------



## xMustiiej70

alright.. and after this..
aftert the timeframe of this aircraft expired..
is India still look for russian projects?


----------



## IndianArmy

xMustiiej70 said:


> alright.. and after this..
> aftert the timeframe of this aircraft expired..
> is India still look for russian projects?



Yes.... India certainly is, Why not?? Delays are a Part of development.. No one abandoned Rome as it was not built in a day...

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## xMustiiej70

I mean will India get indepedent from this project?


----------



## IndianArmy

xMustiiej70 said:


> I mean will India get indepedent from this project?



Nop, Certainly not... why is there a reason to go Independent??


----------



## xMustiiej70

because you will be depedent on russia for your airforce.
you can make profit by exporting?
self-sufficient is always better


----------



## IndianArmy

xMustiiej70 said:


> because you will be depedent on russia for your airforce.
> you can make profit by exporting?
> self-sufficient is always better



FGFA can Be Exported By India as India monetarily is an Equal Partner, there stands a Fair chance for a Possibility , But Again, The Technical Knowhow given to us by the Russians would Evolve AMCA which could be Exported By India provided there are any Takers....


----------



## xMustiiej70

hmm I see..
why is there a seperate pak fa project and the FGFA project?


----------



## IndianArmy

xMustiiej70 said:


> hmm I see..
> why is there a seperate pak fa project and the FGFA project?



Indian Air Force's requirements do not meet to that of the Russian Air Force... IAF prefers Twin Seater aircrafts with a Bit Avionics and Airframe tinkering to suit its requirements...


----------



## xMustiiej70

okay.. thanks for the informations.
well good luck in that project then.


----------



## IndianArmy

xMustiiej70 said:


> okay.. thanks for the informations.
> well good luck in that project then.



Its Ok.... Glad to be talking to you....


----------



## Devianz

Hey, you guys are ruining this thread.


----------



## IndianArmy

Devianz said:


> Hey, you guys are ruining this thread.



You are late, I saved this thread from a Possible ruin....


----------



## Devianz




----------



## localoca

Devianz said:


>


Russia copy the rockwell american advanced tactical fighter design..

they should have copied the YF-23 or YF-22 which are superior designs 



 

 

that, or afew Rockwell designer team moved to Russia...


----------



## SpArK




----------



## SpArK




----------



## SpArK




----------



## SpArK



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## nightcrawler

Hey sparky; I am afraid that when you convert a document of more than ~3 pages to images & publish them on forum it takes a lot of bandwidth; so if you plz let the *larger* documents be on scribd; thnx in advance


----------



## nightcrawler

Second T-50 prototype made its successful flight
Russian Language
Lenta.ru:
English Reviewed
DefenceDog: Second Prototype of PAK FA Made Its First Flight

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## localoca

teddy said:


> another sweet look of J20....it is soooo evill!!!





houshanghai said:


> j20 have EODAS 360 degree spherical situational awareness system (F35)








The last pic its How a 5th Gen High Tech UFO looking Fighter Should NOT look like... you should thank Russian inferior craftmanship

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## MilSpec

localoca said:


> The last pic its How a 5th Gen High Tech UFO looking Fighter Should NOT look like... you should thank Russian inferior craftmanship


 
Why are u trolling same crap on every thread


----------



## tanlixiang28776

sandy_3126 said:


> Why are u trolling same crap on every thread


 
Thats kind of what trolls do.

Just ignore it.


----------



## S10

localoca said:


> The last pic its How a 5th Gen High Tech UFO looking Fighter Should NOT look like... you should thank Russian inferior craftmanship


Go away man. This is like the fourth thread I've seen you posting this crap in.

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## Abingdonboy

I don't see why you Pakistanis are having "wet dreams" ( a phrase coined by Pakistani members on PDF often referring to Indians) about the J-20 when it is a CHINESE plane developed by CHINA with 0% input from Pakistan and no certainty Pakistan will even receive it until 2027-35. 

WAKE UP, CHINA IS NOT YOUR "BIG BROTHER" THEY ARE USING YOU AS A PROXY FOR THEIR OWN NEEDS. 

Celebrating China's achievements as if they were your own- it's pathetic and incredibly immature and naïve.

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## farhan_9909

after watching the pics

i would say f-22 and J-20 are more handsome and hot then PAk fa


----------



## aimarraul



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## Black Widow

farhan_9909 said:


> after watching the pics
> 
> i would say f-22 and J-20 are more handsome and hot then PAk fa


 
Ans none of the three Pakistan will have in PAF


----------



## Kinetic

farhan_9909 said:


> after watching the pics
> 
> i would say f-22 and J-20 are more handsome and hot then PAk fa


 
What new in this? That is because F-22 and J-20 will not be Indian. lol


----------



## tvsram1992

Kinetic said:


> We have got some helps from Russia and other European countries as well but others countries also get helps. Most of Chinese systems are hevaily based on Russian design or help. Even their AEW, SAM and *manned missiles* also based on Russian design and helps.
> 
> Its not easy to fool Indians like others because its a democracy. And wiki is a open source so slightly more reliable than others.
> 
> 
> 
> India has 31 years (as you say) but what about Japan, China, Sweden, Israel? All of them could not make a engine of their own until recently.
> 
> Tajas is a 4th++ fighter because of advanced technologies used in it. Except few technologies it has some of the most lethal capabilities in 4th fighter like next generation EW and stealthy design.
> 
> Tejas is a grand success because We developed it and IAF inducting it. What we else need to make it a success?


 
what do u mean by *manned missiles*


----------



## Kinetic

tvsram1992 said:


> what do u mean by *manned missiles*


 
lol That was more than one year ago. I mean *'manned mission'.* Mistake.


----------



## localoca

aimarraul said:


>



DSI stealth intakes, you when Russians or you Indian Boys learn how to do this(will takes decades) you can call that silent flanker a 5th gen...

go China Go...


----------



## tanlixiang28776

localoca said:


> DSI stealth intakes, you when Russians or you Indian Boys learn how to do this(will takes decades) you can call that silent flanker a 5th gen...
> 
> go China Go...


 
Seriously?


----------



## localoca

tanlixiang28776 said:


> Seriously?


 
Indan's cant make Stealthy DSI intakes, that's a fact


----------



## tanlixiang28776

localoca said:


> Indan's cant make Stealthy DSI intakes, that's a fact


 
At least point out the correct deficiency. Its the not the lack of DSI but Serpentine intakes.


----------



## subarihant

Is DSI a requirement for 5th gen? ( F22 ??) If so then why go gaga abt a tech spec which may not be a requirement. Moreover, doesn't it put a limitation on Mach number ?


----------



## tanlixiang28776

subarihant said:


> Is DSI a requirement for 5th gen? ( F22 ??) If so then why go gaga abt a tech spec which may not be a requirement. Moreover, doesn't it put a limitation on Mach number ?


 
Its not but it does reduce weight and for planes that don't already have serpentine intakes it could hide engine blades. It also makes stalls common on other planes during high AOA almost impossible. As for Mach conventional DSI limits to Mach 2 but adjustable ones much higher.

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## tushar

^^^
The planned AMCA is supposed to have serpentine intake....Its definitely an achievement on Chinese part but that does not mean India cannot make it....We just have to wait and watch....


----------



## tanlixiang28776

tushar said:


> ^^^
> The planned AMCA is supposed to have serpentine intake....Its definitely an achievement on Chinese part but that does not mean India cannot make it....We just have to wait and watch....


 
Good luck on that.


----------



## localoca

tanlixiang28776 said:


> Good luck on that.


 Please don't feed dreams to Indain Fanboys...


----------



## 1000VA

localoca said:


> DSI stealth intakes, you when Russians or you Indian Boys learn how to do this(will takes decades) you can call that silent flanker a 5th gen...
> 
> go China Go...



Yes.... China made all critical,most modern,state of the art, components for J-20 but simply forgot one thing... *ENGINES*

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## hembo

1000VA said:


> Yes.... China made all critical,most modern,state of the art, components for J-20 but simply forgot one thing... *ENGINES*


 
Why respond to false flags? We are doing well in our quest of complete indigenization of fighter aircrafts.. So are the Chinese. In fact, they are ahead of us at the moment. Let's accept it and try to catch up with them.. No need to malign each other because of some trolls..

P.S.: Their engine development program is also miles ahead of us BTW.


----------



## S10

localoca said:


> Indan's cant make Stealthy DSI intakes, that's a fact


No, quit trolling. Find a bush to hide and stay there.


----------



## ptldM3

localoca said:


> DSI stealth intakes, you when Russians or you Indian Boys learn how to do this(will takes decades) you can call that silent flanker a 5th gen...
> 
> go China Go...


 
I'm shocked and amazed at your utter ignorance and lack of any basic knowledge. The concept of a adjustable intakes have been around for decades, in fact the ancient Mig-23 had adjustable intakes for diversion of air, so when you said it will take Russia decades, you just make a mockery of yourself. You further degraded yourself by using fanboy animations. Apart from that it is amazing that a country that is able to create a complex 3d tvc system would not be able to create an adjustable intake diverter, but again it's already been done via the Mig-23...

I laughed when i read the term 'DSI stealth intakes'; firstly, if the J-20 has such a system it is not for so called 'stealth', it is to improve airflow. In fact such a system would increase the J-20's RCS unless engineers put painstaking details into the design. Remember joints, gaps, and uneven panels contribute greatly to RCS. Read the following:

http://www.afa.org/Mitchell/Reports/MS_RadarGame_0910.pdf



> As one Lockheed F&#8209;117 engineer put it, We couldnt allow even the tiniest imperfection in the fit of the landing gear door, for example, that could *triple the airplanes RCS if it wasnt precisely flush*with the body.



If such a system does exist it would need to align perfectly every time, and all seems would not only have to be as small as possible but also slanted so EM waves don't come back to the receiver.

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## angeldemon_007

Good work China....but stop pointing finger at India....atleast let us try....


----------



## houshanghai




----------



## sudhir007

VIDEO: PAK-FA needs advanced composites. Can Russia make them? - The DEW Line

[video]http://www.vesti.ru/only_video.html?vid=337159[/video]

One of the key questions about Russia's PAK-FA fighter program concerns the national industry's capacity to produce the advanced composites required for stealth fighters.

Indeed, the question, "Can Russia's emerging composites industry keep up with production" was nearly topped the list of questions in an exhaustive PAK-FA dossier published last year by David Markov and Andrew Hall -- both experts at a US think-tank called the Institute for Defense Analyses.

A Russian-language news video posted online last week appears designed to re-assure any doubters about the readiness of the PAK-FA's advanced composites supply chain.

Based on a Google translation of a transcript of the report, which is headlined "Black Wings", it's possible to discern the gist of the story, if not the details. 

With shots from inside an advanced composite factory that would certainly be off-limits to the press in the West, Russian officials say the PAK-FA's composites technology has been developed since the 1970s, with experience gained on Russia's Buran space shuttle and more recently the MS-21 regional jet.


> Russian Technologies, have developed a special carbon fiber material. The main technological know-how in the so-called prepregs - semi-finished materials. Their characteristics are directly dependent on how homogeneously alloyed carbon fiber and resin part. "These technologies are in the world is very closed. For example, the technology of getting a good carbon fiber possess 2-3 countries in the world. And buy it impossible. Either you have to develop it himself, or will buy the finished product, there are airplanes, etc., but he already can not do it ", - says General Director of the Moscow Engineering Experimental Plant - Composite Technology Valery Litvinov.

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## marcos98



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## marcos98

Taken by Jurij Stepanov

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## Water Car Engineer

>



Wow, never seen pictures of PAK FA like this.

Thanks..

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## rickshaw driver

ptldM3 said:


> I'm shocked and amazed at your utter ignorance and lack of any basic knowledge. The concept of a adjustable intakes have been around for decades, in fact the ancient Mig-23 had adjustable intakes for diversion of air, so when you said it will take Russia decades, you just make a mockery of yourself. You further degraded yourself by using fanboy animations. Apart from that it is amazing that a country that is able to create a complex 3d tvc system would not be able to create an adjustable intake diverter, but again it's already been done via the Mig-23...
> 
> I laughed when i read the term 'DSI stealth intakes'; firstly, if the J-20 has such a system it is not for so called 'stealth', it is to improve airflow. In fact such a system would increase the J-20's RCS unless engineers put painstaking details into the design. Remember joints, gaps, and uneven panels contribute greatly to RCS. Read the following:
> 
> http://www.afa.org/Mitchell/Reports/MS_RadarGame_0910.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> If such a system does exist it would need to align perfectly every time, and all seems would not only have to be as small as possible but also slanted so EM waves don't come back to the receiver.


 
brother these intakes can be made by HAL but the problem is ISRO is not releasing any funds and CBI had told HAL to go to congress....in Tejas mk-II there are no gaps in panels and we are hopeful it will be more efficient than Rafale once it incorporates DSI stealth intakes in later blocks


----------



## GORKHALI

Liquid said:


> Wow, never seen picture of PAK FA like this.
> 
> Thanks..


 
HOLY COW !!!!i think they opened its flight envelop or it just a trailer


----------



## marcos98

Liquid said:


> Wow, never seen pictures of PAK FA like this.
> 
> Thanks..


 no probs bro.

PAKFA/ FGFA is going to be a kicka$$ fighter for sure


----------



## naveenp

houshanghai said:


>



i will call angel of death


----------



## WHITESMOKE

rickshaw driver said:


> brother these intakes can be made by HAL but the problem is ISRO is not releasing any funds and CBI had told HAL to go to congress....in Tejas mk-II there are no gaps in panels and we are hopeful it will be more efficient than Rafale once it incorporates DSI stealth intakes in later blocks


 
CBI, ISRO NSG........... Mods.. its too much.. dont make this forum a dump ground where any body can $hit out...


----------



## Kinetic

crankthatskunk said:


> Care to explain "We joined in"? Wouldn't it be with sack full of dollars to buy it?
> 
> P


 
 In that way you did not made anything by yourself! You must learn that India will get jointly developed FGFA based on PAK FA whose design just started. 



> Oh, silly me, it must be another "Indigenous" product of mighty India.
> it surely will become "indigenous" when Russians after testing and induction in their force, provides the kits for assembly to the Indian. Wait for how many problems will start after that. Like your TV channels reports, the weapons, which work immaculately in other's hands, always malfunction in Indian's hands.:


Burn! When you cannot get them its better to ridicule it for you. lol You will continue to do so.


----------



## Kinetic

marcos98 said:


> Taken by Jurij Stepanov


 
Outstanding! cool pics!!!! Looks really an advanced design. i hope FGFA is ready early.


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