# Sensitive Data of Indian Navy’s Scorpene Class Submarines Leaked



## proud_indian

*Sensitive Data of Indian Navy’s Scorpene Class Submarines Leaked*

*Abhilash Mallick*
Yesterday, 11:18 pm

A leak, which runs to 22,400 pages and seen by _The Australian_, details the entire secret combat capability of the six Scorpene-class submarines being built for the Indian Navy by French shipbuilder Direction des Constructions et Armes Navales (DCNS).
​The documents were marked *“Restricted Scorpene India”*. The DCNS documents detailed the most sensitive combat capabilities of India’s new $3 billion submarine fleet and would provide an intelligence bonanza if obtained by India’s strategic rivals, such as Pakistan or China.
​_The Australian_ has chosen to redact some of the sensitive information from the documents in the report published by it.

Any stealth advantage for the navy’s new submarines would be gravely 
compromised if data on its planned combat and performance capabilities was leaked.

The leaked DCNS data details the secret stealth capabilities of the six new Indian submarines, including what frequencies they gather intelligence at, what levels of noise they make at various speeds and their diving depths, range and endurance — all sensitive information that is highly classified.
​The documents also include instructions to the submarine crew on where on the boat they can speak safely to avoid detection by the enemy. It also discloses magnetic, electromagnetic and infra-red data as well as the specifications of the submarine’s torpedo launch system and the combat system.

It details the speed and conditions needed for using the periscope, the noise specifications of the propeller and the radiated noise levels that occur when the submarine surfaces.

The data seen by _The Australian _includes 4,457 pages on the submarine’s underwater sensors, 4,209 pages on its above-water sensors, 4,301 pages on its combat management system, 493 pages on its torpedo launch system and specifications, 6,841 pages on the sub’s communications system and 2,138 on its navigation systems.

The Indian Navy has boasted that its Scorpene submarines have superior stealth features, which give them a major advantage against other submarines.
​DCNS yesterday sought to reassure Australians that the leak of the data on the Indian Scorpene submarine would not happen with its proposed submarine for Australia. The company also implied — but did not say directly — that the leak might have occurred at India’s end, rather than from France.






The first Scorpene was supposed to be delivered in September 2016. (Photo: Reuters)
​“In the case of Australia, and unlike India, DCNS is both the provider and in-country controller of technical data for the full chain of transmission and usage over the life of the submarines.”

However, _The Australian _has been told that the data on the Scorpene was written in France for India in 2011 and is suspected of being removed from France in that same year by a former French Navy officer who was at that time a DCNS subcontractor.
The data is then believed to have been taken to a company in Southeast Asia, possibly to assist in a commercial venture for a regional navy.

The data seen by _The Australian _also includes separate confidential DCNS files on plans to sell French frigates to Chile and the French sale of the Mistral-class amphibious assault ship carrier to Russia. These DCNS projects have no link to India, which adds weight to the probability that the data files were removed from DCNS in France.

https://www.thequint.com/india/2016...rines-for-indian-navy-leaked-france-australia

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## proud_indian

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/768154531549110272

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/768155446179930112

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## A_Poster

@PARIKRAMA

@Abingdonboy

@Taygibay @BON PLAN

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## mkb95

so the newspaper has released the data or just told everybody that they have the data?

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## A_Poster

mkb95 said:


> so the newspaper has released the data or just told everybody that they have the data?



Does not matter. If a newspaper has this data, be sure that this data has gone through more hand than a dollar an hour wh0re.

What I am interested in is how sensitive is this data. Is it something which could be found in public literature, if you dig hard enough; or is it something that would get you executed for treason, if leaked.

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## Jf Thunder

A_Poster said:


> Does not matter. If a newspaper has this data, be sure that this data has gone through more hand than a dollar an hour wh0re.
> 
> What I am interested in is how sensitive is this data. Is it something which could be found in public literature, if you dig hard enough; or is it something that would get you executed for treason, if leaked.


i doubt the latter, one shouldn't be too quick to underestimate their armed forces.


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## cerberus

A_Poster said:


> Does not matter. If a newspaper has this data, be sure that this data has gone through more hand than a dollar an hour wh0re.
> 
> What I am interested in is how sensitive is this data. Is it something which could be found in public literature, if you dig hard enough; or is it something that would get you executed for treason, if leaked.


If read correctly the leak is done on French part during these details were written in 2011 by sub contractor as per news paper

I don't think it blue prints its over exaggerated
Or Internal sabotage for Australian deal which is whopping 50 billion $ by rival Firms and lobbies

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## MastanKhan

It is of the type that needs a firing squad---but what you make out of it is a different story---.
A fake information may also be leaked out.

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## [Bregs]

only detailed investigations might reveal whats the truth

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## PARIKRAMA

If only people know whats written really
*
First the article*
++++
*Our French submarine builder in massive leak scandal*




The Indian Navy’s first Scorpene submarine in Mumbai last year.


The Australian
12:00AM August 24, 2016
*CAMERON STEWART*



Associate Editor
Melbourne
@camstewarttheoz
The French company that won the bid to design Australia’s new $50 billion submarine fleet has suffered a massive leak of secret documents, raising fears about the future security of top-secret data on the navy’s future fleet.

The stunning leak, which runs to 22,400 pages and has been seen by _The Australian_, details the entire secret combat capability of the six Scorpene-class submarines that French shipbuilder DCNS has designed for the Indian Navy.

A variant of the same French-designed Scorpene is also used by the navies of Malaysia, Chile and, from 2018, Brazil, so news of the Edward Snowden-sized leak — revealed today — will trigger alarm at the highest level in these countries. Marked “Restricted Scorpene India”, the DCNS documents detail the most sensitive combat capabilities of India’s new $US3 bn ($3.9bn) submarine fleet and would provide an intelligence bonanza if obtained by India’s strategic rivals, such as Pakistan or China.

The leak will spark grave concern in Australia and especially in the US where senior navy officials have privately expressed fears about the security of top-secret data entrusted to France.

In April DCNS, which is two-thirds owned by the French government, won the hotly contested bid over Germany and Japan to design 12 new submarines for Australia. Its proposed submarine for Australia — the yet-to-be-built Shortfin Barracuda — was chosen ahead of its rivals because it was considered to be the quietest in the water, making it perfectly suited to intelligence-gathering operations against China and others in the region.

Any stealth advantage for the navy’s new submarines would be gravely compromised if data on its planned combat and performance capabilities was leaked in the same manner as the data from the Scorpene. The leaked DCNS data details the secret stealth capabilities of the six new Indian submarines, including what frequencies they gather intelligence at, what levels of noise they make at various speeds and their diving depths, range and endurance — all sensitive information that is highly classified. The data tells the submarine crew where on the boat they can speak safely to avoid detection by the enemy. It also discloses magnetic, electromagnetic and infra-red data as well as the specifications of the submarine’s torpedo launch system and the combat system.

It details the speed and conditions needed for using the periscope, the noise specifications of the propeller and the radiated noise levels that occur when the submarine surfaces.

The data seen by _The Australian _includes 4457 pages on the submarine’s underwater sensors, 4209 pages on its above-water sensors, 4301 pages on its combat management system, 493 pages on its torpedo launch system and specifications, 6841 pages on the sub’s communications system and 2138 on its navigation systems.

_The Australian_ has chosen to redact sensitive information from the documents.

Sea trials for the first of India’s six Scorpene submarines began in May. The project is running four years behind schedule.

The Indian Navy has boasted that its Scorpene submarines have superior stealth features, which give them a major advantage against other submarines.

The US will be alarmed by the leak of the DCNS data because Australia hopes to install an American combat system — with the latest US stealth technology — in the French Shortfin Barracuda.

If Washington does not feel confident that its “crown jewels’’ of stealth technology can be protected, it may decline to give Australia its state-of-the-art combat system.

DCNS yesterday sought to reassure Australians that the leak of the data on the Indian Scorpene submarine would not happen with its proposed submarine for Australia. The company also implied — but did not say directly — that the leak might have occurred at India’s end, rather than from France. “Uncontrolled technical data is not possible in the Australian arrangements,” the company said. “Multiple and independent controls exist within DCNS to prevent unauthorised access to data and all data movements are encrypted and recorded. In the case of India, where a DCNS design is built by a local company, DCNS is the provider and not the controller of technical data.

“In the case of Australia, and unlike India, DCNS is both the provider and in-country controller of technical data for the full chain of transmission and usage over the life of the submarines.”

*However, The Australian has been told that the data on the Scorpene was written in France for India in 2011 and is suspected of being removed from France in that same year by a former French Navy officer who was at that time a DCNS subcontractor.*

*The data is then believed to have been taken to a company in Southeast Asia, possibly to assist in a commercial venture for a regional navy.*

*It was subsequently passed by a third party to a second company in the region before being sent on a data disk by regular mail to a company in Australia. It is unclear how widely the data has been shared in Asia or whether it has been obtained by foreign intelligence agencies.*

*The data seen by The Australian also includes separate confidential DCNS files on plans to sell French frigates to Chile and the French sale of the Mistral-class amphibious assault ship carrier to Russia. These DCNS projects have no link to India, which adds weight to the probability that the data files were removed from DCNS in France.*

DCNS Australia this month signed a deed of agreement with the Defence Department, paving the way for talks over the contract which will guide the design phase of the new submarines. The government plans to build 12 submarines in Adelaide to replace the six-boat Collins-class fleet from the early 2030s. The Shortfin Barracuda will be a slightly shorter, conventionally powered version of France’s new fleet of Barracuda-class nuclear submarines.

*Restricted data*

The secret information the leaked documents reveal:

• The stealth capabilities of the six new Indian Scorpene submarines
• The frequencies at which the subs gather intelligence
• The levels of noise the subs make at various speeds
• Diving depths, range and endurance
• Magnetic, electromagnetic and infra-red data
• Specifications of the submarine’s torpedo launch system and the combat system
• Speed and conditions needed for using the periscope
• Propeller’s noise specifications
• Radiated noise levels when the submarine surfaces
++++

*Whats the data leaked really and whats the preview the newspaper gave out..*





thats the cover of 1st PDF it has attached to showcase reference

What do you expect technical manuals to have within? Of course technical side of how to operate and troubleshoot basic things..

Buy any electronic device even an apple iphone, wont you get technical manuals? yes a repair guy would have more detailed circuit board level stuff but that is for trouble shooting.. and Manuals dont have circuits.. its basically process of how to operate and what to do in case its a trouble/issue.. teh flowchart of steps really.. *not for building a sub with details of metallurgy or so called other technological stuff which can be replicated..*

the second pdf talks about acoustic noise under certain conditions (lol sea state 1 meaning super calm bright sunny weather with no problems) noise levels in different compartment. Smartass folks forget the sub testing is done to check acoustic noise seen within individual compartments during sea trials to see if build of the sub matches with the laid out details or not and thus acoustic noise is measured for each portion in different conditions. So if we measure X, will not be there a reference to check and say yes it conforms to the build quality as laid and contracted by DCNS with GOI.. These are called as guaranteed noise levels... anything beyond those levels and sub goes back to do more insulation and may not get quality certification iuf consistently it breaches those guaranteed stuff for anything and everything..

the third part and biggest chunk, comprising of 2342 pages and are actually documentation manual of the parts and training documents.

In simple words, if i get documentation manuals, technical manuals and training manuals can i build scorpene sub? Can i reverse engineer it? Can i compromise, cripple and make scorpene sub useless?

Its height of stupidity really.. yes someone leaked but again its not really the core critical stuff.. We must plug the leak source but The Australian is using the vested interest angle to rub DCNS in a wrong way.. The way it is, its clear they dont want DCNS to ink the contract of SEA1000. Perhaps this might turn out to be a case of yellow journalism with intentional espionage and leakage by Rivals of DCNS.

*As far as India is concerned, these manuals are written in 2010-2011.. Kalavari is on sea trials now.. You know even for LCA tejas there will be 5000 pages of technical manuals.. its for pilots training, for basic repair crew etc.. same its for sailors and crew.. Nothing so sensitive is shared in manuals in the first place.. mostly the doc set of captain may have sensitive some frequencies for communication but that is never going to be shared with normal manuals nor codes for torpedo launch or sensitive Battle Management system codes etc..

This is a clear case of poor attempt to drag a company to score brownie points (Anti Turnbull group) and use DCNS and India names to glorify the case and grab eyeballs.. Thats my assessment after going through the prelim data ..*

Tagging the whole world.. its time such news items are given the right place.. sensationalism at its best..

@Abingdonboy @anant_s @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @Vergennes @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @MilSpec @Koovie @Echo_419 @Dash @hellfire @ito @SR-91 @AMCA @DesiGuy1403 @ranjeet @hellfire @fsayed @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Sergi @Water Car Engineer @dadeechi @kurup @Rain Man @kaykay @Joe Shearer @Tshering22 @Dandpatta @danger007 @Didact @Soumitra @SrNair @TejasMk3@jbgt90 @ranjeet @4GTejasBVR @The_Showstopper @guest11 @egodoc222 @Nilgiri @SarthakGanguly @Omega007 @GURU DUTT @HariPrasad @JanjaWeed @litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular @Spectre@litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular@Ryuzaki @CorporateAffairs @GR!FF!N @migflug @Levina@SvenSvensonov @-xXx- @Perpendicular @proud_indian @Mustang06 @Param @Local_Legend @Ali Zadi @hellfire @egodoc222 @CorporateAffairs @Major Shaitan Singh @jha @SmilingBuddha @#hydra# @danish_vij @[Bregs] @Skillrex @Hephaestus @SR-91 @Techy @litefire @R!CK @zebra7 @dev_moh @DesiGuy1403 @itachii @nik141993 @Marxist @Glorino @noksss @jbgt90 @Skull and Bones @Kraitcorp @Crixus @waz @WAJsal @Oscar @Blue Marlin @jhungary @AugenBlick @Star Wars @GuardianRED @arp2041 @Aero @Penguin @others

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## Spectre

PARIKRAMA said:


> the noise specifications of the propeller and the radiated noise levels that occur when the submarine surfaces.





PARIKRAMA said:


> 4457 pages on the submarine’s underwater sensors, 4209 pages on its above-water sensors, 4301 pages on its combat management system, 493 pages on its torpedo launch system and specifications, 6841 pages on the sub’s communications system and 2138 on its navigation systems.



Very serious.. In better places, contract would be scrapped, subs returned and DCNS banned and penalized but this being India, they will likely get a free pass and information leakage would be downplayed.

Dont be naive - this is corporate damage control.. I have seen it hundreds of times - it smells exactly the same everytime.

Just look at how DCNS is washing it's hands off.. They are least bothered about India - Putting the blame on India to salvage the Australian contract. They did this earlier too at expense of India when they promised Aussies exclusivity and specially mentioned India would not be granted access to certain tech..

_The DCNS also implied that the leak might have occurred at India's end, rather than from France.

"Uncontrolled technical data is not possible in the Australian Aarrangements," the company said as per the report in The Australian.

"Multiple and independent controls exist within DCNS to prevent unauthorised access to data and all data movements are encrypted and recorded. In the case of India, where a DCNS design is built by a local company, DCNS is the provider and not the controller of technical data," it said_

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## Shankranthi

PARIKRAMA said:


> If only people know whats written really
> *
> First the article*
> ++++
> *Our French submarine builder in massive leak scandal*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Indian Navy’s first Scorpene submarine in Mumbai last year.
> 
> 
> The Australian
> 12:00AM August 24, 2016
> *CAMERON STEWART*
> 
> 
> 
> Associate Editor
> Melbourne
> @camstewarttheoz
> The French company that won the bid to design Australia’s new $50 billion submarine fleet has suffered a massive leak of secret documents, raising fears about the future security of top-secret data on the navy’s future fleet.
> 
> The stunning leak, which runs to 22,400 pages and has been seen by _The Australian_, details the entire secret combat capability of the six Scorpene-class submarines that French shipbuilder DCNS has designed for the Indian Navy.
> 
> A variant of the same French-designed Scorpene is also used by the navies of Malaysia, Chile and, from 2018, Brazil, so news of the Edward Snowden-sized leak — revealed today — will trigger alarm at the highest level in these countries. Marked “Restricted Scorpene India”, the DCNS documents detail the most sensitive combat capabilities of India’s new $US3 bn ($3.9bn) submarine fleet and would provide an intelligence bonanza if obtained by India’s strategic rivals, such as Pakistan or China.
> 
> The leak will spark grave concern in Australia and especially in the US where senior navy officials have privately expressed fears about the security of top-secret data entrusted to France.
> 
> In April DCNS, which is two-thirds owned by the French government, won the hotly contested bid over Germany and Japan to design 12 new submarines for Australia. Its proposed submarine for Australia — the yet-to-be-built Shortfin Barracuda — was chosen ahead of its rivals because it was considered to be the quietest in the water, making it perfectly suited to intelligence-gathering operations against China and others in the region.
> 
> Any stealth advantage for the navy’s new submarines would be gravely compromised if data on its planned combat and performance capabilities was leaked in the same manner as the data from the Scorpene. The leaked DCNS data details the secret stealth capabilities of the six new Indian submarines, including what frequencies they gather intelligence at, what levels of noise they make at various speeds and their diving depths, range and endurance — all sensitive information that is highly classified. The data tells the submarine crew where on the boat they can speak safely to avoid detection by the enemy. It also discloses magnetic, electromagnetic and infra-red data as well as the specifications of the submarine’s torpedo launch system and the combat system.
> 
> It details the speed and conditions needed for using the periscope, the noise specifications of the propeller and the radiated noise levels that occur when the submarine surfaces.
> 
> The data seen by _The Australian _includes 4457 pages on the submarine’s underwater sensors, 4209 pages on its above-water sensors, 4301 pages on its combat management system, 493 pages on its torpedo launch system and specifications, 6841 pages on the sub’s communications system and 2138 on its navigation systems.
> 
> _The Australian_ has chosen to redact sensitive information from the documents.
> 
> Sea trials for the first of India’s six Scorpene submarines began in May. The project is running four years behind schedule.
> 
> The Indian Navy has boasted that its Scorpene submarines have superior stealth features, which give them a major advantage against other submarines.
> 
> The US will be alarmed by the leak of the DCNS data because Australia hopes to install an American combat system — with the latest US stealth technology — in the French Shortfin Barracuda.
> 
> If Washington does not feel confident that its “crown jewels’’ of stealth technology can be protected, it may decline to give Australia its state-of-the-art combat system.
> 
> DCNS yesterday sought to reassure Australians that the leak of the data on the Indian Scorpene submarine would not happen with its proposed submarine for Australia. The company also implied — but did not say directly — that the leak might have occurred at India’s end, rather than from France. “Uncontrolled technical data is not possible in the Australian arrangements,” the company said. “Multiple and independent controls exist within DCNS to prevent unauthorised access to data and all data movements are encrypted and recorded. In the case of India, where a DCNS design is built by a local company, DCNS is the provider and not the controller of technical data.
> 
> “In the case of Australia, and unlike India, DCNS is both the provider and in-country controller of technical data for the full chain of transmission and usage over the life of the submarines.”
> 
> *However, The Australian has been told that the data on the Scorpene was written in France for India in 2011 and is suspected of being removed from France in that same year by a former French Navy officer who was at that time a DCNS subcontractor.*
> 
> *The data is then believed to have been taken to a company in Southeast Asia, possibly to assist in a commercial venture for a regional navy.*
> 
> *It was subsequently passed by a third party to a second company in the region before being sent on a data disk by regular mail to a company in Australia. It is unclear how widely the data has been shared in Asia or whether it has been obtained by foreign intelligence agencies.*
> 
> *The data seen by The Australian also includes separate confidential DCNS files on plans to sell French frigates to Chile and the French sale of the Mistral-class amphibious assault ship carrier to Russia. These DCNS projects have no link to India, which adds weight to the probability that the data files were removed from DCNS in France.*
> 
> DCNS Australia this month signed a deed of agreement with the Defence Department, paving the way for talks over the contract which will guide the design phase of the new submarines. The government plans to build 12 submarines in Adelaide to replace the six-boat Collins-class fleet from the early 2030s. The Shortfin Barracuda will be a slightly shorter, conventionally powered version of France’s new fleet of Barracuda-class nuclear submarines.
> 
> *Restricted data*
> 
> The secret information the leaked documents reveal:
> 
> • The stealth capabilities of the six new Indian Scorpene submarines
> • The frequencies at which the subs gather intelligence
> • The levels of noise the subs make at various speeds
> • Diving depths, range and endurance
> • Magnetic, electromagnetic and infra-red data
> • Specifications of the submarine’s torpedo launch system and the combat system
> • Speed and conditions needed for using the periscope
> • Propeller’s noise specifications
> • Radiated noise levels when the submarine surfaces
> ++++
> 
> *Whats the data leaked really and whats the preview the newspaper gave out..*
> View attachment 328351
> 
> 
> thats the cover of 1st PDF it has attached to showcase reference
> 
> What do you expect technical manuals to have within? Of course technical side of how to operate and troubleshoot basic things..
> 
> Buy any electronic device even an apple iphone, wont you get technical manuals? yes a repair guy would have more detailed circuit board level stuff but that is for trouble shooting.. and Manuals dont have circuits.. its basically process of how to operate and what to do in case its a trouble/issue.. teh flowchart of steps really.. *not for building a sub with details of metallurgy or so called other technological stuff which can be replicated..*
> 
> the second pdf talks about acoustic noise under certain conditions (lol sea state 1 meaning super calm bright sunny weather with no problems) noise levels in different compartment. Smartass folks forget the sub testing is done to check acoustic noise seen within individual compartments during sea trials to see if build of the sub matches with the laid out details or not and thus acoustic noise is measured for each portion in different conditions. So if we measure X, will not be there a reference to check and say yes it conforms to the build quality as laid and contracted by DCNS with GOI.. These are called as guaranteed noise levels... anything beyond those levels and sub goes back to do more insulation and may not get quality certification iuf consistently it breaches those guaranteed stuff for anything and everything..
> 
> the third part and biggest chunk, comprising of 2342 pages and are actually documentation manual of the parts and training documents.
> 
> In simple words, if i get documentation manuals, technical manuals and training manuals can i build scorpene sub? Can i reverse engineer it? Can i compromise, cripple and make scorpene sub useless?
> 
> Its height of stupidity really.. yes someone leaked but again its not really the core critical stuff.. We must plug the leak source but The Australian is using the vested interest angle to rub DCNS in a wrong way.. The way it is, its clear they dont want DCNS to ink the contract of SEA1000. Perhaps this might turn out to be a case of yellow journalism with intentional espionage and leakage by Rivals of DCNS.
> 
> *As far as India is concerned, these manuals are written in 2010-2011.. Kalavari is on sea trials now.. You know even for LCA tejas there will be 5000 pages of technical manuals.. its for pilots training, for basic repair crew etc.. same its for sailors and crew.. Nothing so sensitive is shared in manuals in the first place.. mostly the doc set of captain may have sensitive some frequencies for communication but that is never going to be shared with normal manuals nor codes for torpedo launch or sensitive Battle Management system codes etc..
> 
> This is a clear case of poor attempt to drag a company to score brownie points (Anti Turnbull group) and use DCNS and India names to glorify the case and grab eyeballs.. Thats my assessment after going through the prelim data ..*
> 
> Tagging the whole world.. its time such news items are given the right place.. sensationalism at its best..
> 
> @Abingdonboy @anant_s @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @Vergennes @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @MilSpec @Koovie @Echo_419 @Dash @hellfire @ito @SR-91 @AMCA @DesiGuy1403 @ranjeet @hellfire @fsayed @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Sergi @Water Car Engineer @dadeechi @kurup @Rain Man @kaykay @Joe Shearer @Tshering22 @Dandpatta @danger007 @Didact @Soumitra @SrNair @TejasMk3@jbgt90 @ranjeet @4GTejasBVR @The_Showstopper @guest11 @egodoc222 @Nilgiri @SarthakGanguly @Omega007 @GURU DUTT @HariPrasad @JanjaWeed @litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular @Spectre@litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular@Ryuzaki @CorporateAffairs @GR!FF!N @migflug @Levina@SvenSvensonov @-xXx- @Perpendicular @proud_indian @Mustang06 @Param @Local_Legend @Ali Zadi @hellfire @egodoc222 @CorporateAffairs @Major Shaitan Singh @jha @SmilingBuddha @#hydra# @danish_vij @[Bregs] @Skillrex @Hephaestus @SR-91 @Techy @litefire @R!CK @zebra7 @dev_moh @DesiGuy1403 @itachii @nik141993 @Marxist @Glorino @noksss @jbgt90 @Skull and Bones @Kraitcorp @Crixus @waz @WAJsal @Oscar @Blue Marlin @jhungary @AugenBlick @Star Wars @GuardianRED @arp2041 @Aero @Penguin @others



This is great news.

I will sleep a lot better after knowing that *22,400 pages of data about Kalavari *contains nothing important since you have personally read the news article and have declared it to be sanitised.

This is indeed wonderful.  ............. I guess the jokes on China now. Lets all have a good laugh.


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## Spectre

Shankranthi said:


> This is great news.
> 
> I will sleep a lot better after knowing that *22,400 pages of data about Kalavari *continues nothing important since you have personally read the news article and have declared it to be sanitised.
> 
> This is indeed wonderful.  ............. I guess the jokes on China now. Lets all have a good laugh.



Exactly like Hillary Clinton's 30000 deleted emails - all about grand kids

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## Olaf One-Brow

Shankranthi said:


> This is great news.
> 
> I will sleep a lot better after knowing that *22,400 pages of data about Kalavari *continues nothing important since you have personally read the news article and have declared it to be sanitised.
> 
> This is indeed wonderful.  ............. I guess the jokes on China now. Lets all have a good laugh.



It's what's not leaked that you should be fearful of.



Spectre said:


> "_Multiple and independent controls exist within DCNS to prevent unauthorised access to data and all data movements are encrypted and recorded._



No obstacle for state sponsored attacks. I doubt the NSA or Chinese or Russian electronic intelligence would be too bothered.

Proper handling, caching and security protocols were what mattered to us.


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## Shankranthi

Olaf One-Brow said:


> It's what's not leaked that you should be fearful of.



At this point, any fear is useless. The worst has already happened. 

How we pick up from here is what matters.

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## Spectre

PARIKRAMA said:


> yes leak must be plugged but here is the pic of some folders and content
> 
> 
> View attachment 328353
> 
> 
> All these are manuals.. Individually these folders also contain the same manuals..
> 
> The way i see it, either in France or in India a subcontractor or a IN official who handles training and documentation or anyone who is preparing these doc set for India might have a copy and is perhaps the source of the leak.. That number will be narrow and eventually we will find the culprit..
> 
> 
> But again as far as contents of these manuals are concerned like this page
> View attachment 328354
> 
> 
> its a normal manual of how system work and is like a hands on training for a new operator ..



Arrey Yaar..The newspaper has released the least sensitive stuff cos-

Case is under investigation
It has implications on national security of Australia, USA, India and others..

2nd - what use is plugging the leak? All those who have means have already gained access once the material left DCNS. For gods sake - a newspaper has them so is it a stretch to imagine other interested parties wont have them? Look at how DCNS are trying to pin the whole thing on India by saying Australia is safe cos leak didn't happen on their project - No word about implications for India..

*What do you suggest should happen to DCNS? Shouldn't it be penalized? If so, how?*

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## Shankranthi

PARIKRAMA said:


> yes leak must be plugged but here is the pic of some folders and content
> 
> 
> View attachment 328353
> 
> 
> All these are manuals.. Individually these folders also contain the same manuals..
> 
> The way i see it, either in France or in India a subcontractor or a IN official who handles training and documentation or anyone who is preparing these doc set for India might have a copy and is perhaps the source of the leak.. That number will be narrow and eventually we will find the culprit..
> 
> But again as far as contents of these manuals are concerned like this page
> View attachment 328354
> 
> 
> its a normal manual of how system work and is like a hands on training for a new operator ..



Cool .......... since these are worthless let us also release manuals about our Nuclear submarine too.  

BTW the "culprit" has already been identified. "Formal Naval officer who at that time was DCS sub contractor" (obviously french)

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## Blue Marlin

isi...........mowaahahahahah.
ok jokes over. but if the data was leaked and an aussie paper got it then what are the chances your western neighbour has said data too? just a thought. 

besides sleep well india they have the diesal engines not the drdo aip. i doubt the french have the specs for the aip? right @PARIKRAMA ?

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## salarsikander

cancel the deal cancel the deal


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## Shankranthi

salarsikander said:


> cancel the deal cancel the deal



Din't pakistan navy buy Agostas from DCS ?  ............ how safe are your secretes ? DCS reputation does not inspire much confidence.

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## PARIKRAMA

Spectre said:


> Arrey Yaar..The newspaper has released the least sensitive stuff cos-
> 
> Case is under investigation
> It has implications on national security of Australia, USA, India and others..
> 
> 2nd - what use is plugging the leak? All those who have means have already gained access once the material left DCNS. For gods sake - a newspaper has them so is it a stretch to imagine other interested parties wont have them? Look at how DCNS are trying to pin the whole thing on India by saying Australia is safe cos leak didn't happen on their project - No word about implications for India..
> 
> *What do you suggest should happen to DCNS? Shouldn't it penalized? If so, how?*


Enquiry would happen and if found culprit its banning for minimum 10 years,,



Shankranthi said:


> Cool .......... since these are worthless let us also release manuals about our Nuclear submarine too.
> 
> BTW the "culprit" has already been identified. "Formal Naval officer who at that time was DCS sub contractor" (obviously french)


Pls do go ahead and release it if you also want to make some quick money.. No one says its correct.. not even me.. but manuals dont give out the sensitive portion as claimed by the newspaper..

Its the source of the leak which is important to find bcz what he might have sold out may turn out to be drop in the ocean.. What other data he has is far more important to find..



Blue Marlin said:


> isi...........mowaahahahahah.
> ok jokes over. but if the data was leaked and an aussie paper got it then what are the chances your western neighbour has said data too? just a thought.
> 
> besides sleep well india they have the diesal engines not the drdo aip. i doubt the french have the specs for the aip? right @PARIKRAMA ?


The whole world will have it.. as is said its the tip of the iceberg or dop in ocean.. what that person also has besides these manuals is far more important..

From a similar perspective agosta manuals will be similar to these manuals.. Pakistan wont find much new in that.. nor will china who would have already got the same via Pakistan as i believe their cooperation level is much higher.

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## Blue Marlin

here they are..... or part of it
its everywhere so no point trying to hide something thats out

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## salarsikander

PARIKRAMA said:


> If only people know whats written really
> *
> First the article*
> ++++
> *Our French submarine builder in massive leak scandal*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Indian Navy’s first Scorpene submarine in Mumbai last year.
> 
> 
> The Australian
> 12:00AM August 24, 2016
> *CAMERON STEWART*
> 
> 
> 
> Associate Editor
> Melbourne
> @camstewarttheoz
> The French company that won the bid to design Australia’s new $50 billion submarine fleet has suffered a massive leak of secret documents, raising fears about the future security of top-secret data on the navy’s future fleet.
> 
> The stunning leak, which runs to 22,400 pages and has been seen by _The Australian_, details the entire secret combat capability of the six Scorpene-class submarines that French shipbuilder DCNS has designed for the Indian Navy.
> 
> A variant of the same French-designed Scorpene is also used by the navies of Malaysia, Chile and, from 2018, Brazil, so news of the Edward Snowden-sized leak — revealed today — will trigger alarm at the highest level in these countries. Marked “Restricted Scorpene India”, the DCNS documents detail the most sensitive combat capabilities of India’s new $US3 bn ($3.9bn) submarine fleet and would provide an intelligence bonanza if obtained by India’s strategic rivals, such as Pakistan or China.
> 
> The leak will spark grave concern in Australia and especially in the US where senior navy officials have privately expressed fears about the security of top-secret data entrusted to France.
> 
> In April DCNS, which is two-thirds owned by the French government, won the hotly contested bid over Germany and Japan to design 12 new submarines for Australia. Its proposed submarine for Australia — the yet-to-be-built Shortfin Barracuda — was chosen ahead of its rivals because it was considered to be the quietest in the water, making it perfectly suited to intelligence-gathering operations against China and others in the region.
> 
> Any stealth advantage for the navy’s new submarines would be gravely compromised if data on its planned combat and performance capabilities was leaked in the same manner as the data from the Scorpene. The leaked DCNS data details the secret stealth capabilities of the six new Indian submarines, including what frequencies they gather intelligence at, what levels of noise they make at various speeds and their diving depths, range and endurance — all sensitive information that is highly classified. The data tells the submarine crew where on the boat they can speak safely to avoid detection by the enemy. It also discloses magnetic, electromagnetic and infra-red data as well as the specifications of the submarine’s torpedo launch system and the combat system.
> 
> It details the speed and conditions needed for using the periscope, the noise specifications of the propeller and the radiated noise levels that occur when the submarine surfaces.
> 
> The data seen by _The Australian _includes 4457 pages on the submarine’s underwater sensors, 4209 pages on its above-water sensors, 4301 pages on its combat management system, 493 pages on its torpedo launch system and specifications, 6841 pages on the sub’s communications system and 2138 on its navigation systems.
> 
> _The Australian_ has chosen to redact sensitive information from the documents.
> 
> Sea trials for the first of India’s six Scorpene submarines began in May. The project is running four years behind schedule.
> 
> The Indian Navy has boasted that its Scorpene submarines have superior stealth features, which give them a major advantage against other submarines.
> 
> The US will be alarmed by the leak of the DCNS data because Australia hopes to install an American combat system — with the latest US stealth technology — in the French Shortfin Barracuda.
> 
> If Washington does not feel confident that its “crown jewels’’ of stealth technology can be protected, it may decline to give Australia its state-of-the-art combat system.
> 
> DCNS yesterday sought to reassure Australians that the leak of the data on the Indian Scorpene submarine would not happen with its proposed submarine for Australia. The company also implied — but did not say directly — that the leak might have occurred at India’s end, rather than from France. “Uncontrolled technical data is not possible in the Australian arrangements,” the company said. “Multiple and independent controls exist within DCNS to prevent unauthorised access to data and all data movements are encrypted and recorded. In the case of India, where a DCNS design is built by a local company, DCNS is the provider and not the controller of technical data.
> 
> “In the case of Australia, and unlike India, DCNS is both the provider and in-country controller of technical data for the full chain of transmission and usage over the life of the submarines.”
> 
> *However, The Australian has been told that the data on the Scorpene was written in France for India in 2011 and is suspected of being removed from France in that same year by a former French Navy officer who was at that time a DCNS subcontractor.*
> 
> *The data is then believed to have been taken to a company in Southeast Asia, possibly to assist in a commercial venture for a regional navy.*
> 
> *It was subsequently passed by a third party to a second company in the region before being sent on a data disk by regular mail to a company in Australia. It is unclear how widely the data has been shared in Asia or whether it has been obtained by foreign intelligence agencies.*
> 
> *The data seen by The Australian also includes separate confidential DCNS files on plans to sell French frigates to Chile and the French sale of the Mistral-class amphibious assault ship carrier to Russia. These DCNS projects have no link to India, which adds weight to the probability that the data files were removed from DCNS in France.*
> 
> DCNS Australia this month signed a deed of agreement with the Defence Department, paving the way for talks over the contract which will guide the design phase of the new submarines. The government plans to build 12 submarines in Adelaide to replace the six-boat Collins-class fleet from the early 2030s. The Shortfin Barracuda will be a slightly shorter, conventionally powered version of France’s new fleet of Barracuda-class nuclear submarines.
> 
> *Restricted data*
> 
> The secret information the leaked documents reveal:
> 
> • The stealth capabilities of the six new Indian Scorpene submarines
> • The frequencies at which the subs gather intelligence
> • The levels of noise the subs make at various speeds
> • Diving depths, range and endurance
> • Magnetic, electromagnetic and infra-red data
> • Specifications of the submarine’s torpedo launch system and the combat system
> • Speed and conditions needed for using the periscope
> • Propeller’s noise specifications
> • Radiated noise levels when the submarine surfaces
> ++++
> 
> *Whats the data leaked really and whats the preview the newspaper gave out..*
> View attachment 328351
> 
> 
> thats the cover of 1st PDF it has attached to showcase reference
> 
> What do you expect technical manuals to have within? Of course technical side of how to operate and troubleshoot basic things..
> 
> Buy any electronic device even an apple iphone, wont you get technical manuals? yes a repair guy would have more detailed circuit board level stuff but that is for trouble shooting.. and Manuals dont have circuits.. its basically process of how to operate and what to do in case its a trouble/issue.. teh flowchart of steps really.. *not for building a sub with details of metallurgy or so called other technological stuff which can be replicated..*
> 
> the second pdf talks about acoustic noise under certain conditions (lol sea state 1 meaning super calm bright sunny weather with no problems) noise levels in different compartment. Smartass folks forget the sub testing is done to check acoustic noise seen within individual compartments during sea trials to see if build of the sub matches with the laid out details or not and thus acoustic noise is measured for each portion in different conditions. So if we measure X, will not be there a reference to check and say yes it conforms to the build quality as laid and contracted by DCNS with GOI.. These are called as guaranteed noise levels... anything beyond those levels and sub goes back to do more insulation and may not get quality certification iuf consistently it breaches those guaranteed stuff for anything and everything..
> 
> the third part and biggest chunk, comprising of 2342 pages and are actually documentation manual of the parts and training documents.
> 
> In simple words, if i get documentation manuals, technical manuals and training manuals can i build scorpene sub? Can i reverse engineer it? Can i compromise, cripple and make scorpene sub useless?
> 
> Its height of stupidity really.. yes someone leaked but again its not really the core critical stuff.. We must plug the leak source but The Australian is using the vested interest angle to rub DCNS in a wrong way.. The way it is, its clear they dont want DCNS to ink the contract of SEA1000. Perhaps this might turn out to be a case of yellow journalism with intentional espionage and leakage by Rivals of DCNS.
> 
> *As far as India is concerned, these manuals are written in 2010-2011.. Kalavari is on sea trials now.. You know even for LCA tejas there will be 5000 pages of technical manuals.. its for pilots training, for basic repair crew etc.. same its for sailors and crew.. Nothing so sensitive is shared in manuals in the first place.. mostly the doc set of captain may have sensitive some frequencies for communication but that is never going to be shared with normal manuals nor codes for torpedo launch or sensitive Battle Management system codes etc..
> 
> This is a clear case of poor attempt to drag a company to score brownie points (Anti Turnbull group) and use DCNS and India names to glorify the case and grab eyeballs.. Thats my assessment after going through the prelim data ..*
> 
> Tagging the whole world.. its time such news items are given the right place.. sensationalism at its best..
> 
> @Abingdonboy @anant_s @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @Vergennes @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @MilSpec @Koovie @Echo_419 @Dash @hellfire @ito @SR-91 @AMCA @DesiGuy1403 @ranjeet @hellfire @fsayed @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Sergi @Water Car Engineer @dadeechi @kurup @Rain Man @kaykay @Joe Shearer @Tshering22 @Dandpatta @danger007 @Didact @Soumitra @SrNair @TejasMk3@jbgt90 @ranjeet @4GTejasBVR @The_Showstopper @guest11 @egodoc222 @Nilgiri @SarthakGanguly @Omega007 @GURU DUTT @HariPrasad @JanjaWeed @litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular @Spectre@litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular@Ryuzaki @CorporateAffairs @GR!FF!N @migflug @Levina@SvenSvensonov @-xXx- @Perpendicular @proud_indian @Mustang06 @Param @Local_Legend @Ali Zadi @hellfire @egodoc222 @CorporateAffairs @Major Shaitan Singh @jha @SmilingBuddha @#hydra# @danish_vij @[Bregs] @Skillrex @Hephaestus @SR-91 @Techy @litefire @R!CK @zebra7 @dev_moh @DesiGuy1403 @itachii @nik141993 @Marxist @Glorino @noksss @jbgt90 @Skull and Bones @Kraitcorp @Crixus @waz @WAJsal @Oscar @Blue Marlin @jhungary @AugenBlick @Star Wars @GuardianRED @arp2041 @Aero @Penguin @others


This is what I really like about your posts and reply. Always to the point and precise.



Shankranthi said:


> Din't pakistan navy buy Agostas from DCS ?  ............ how safe are your secretes ? DCS reputation does not inspire much confidence.


yeah but the sorpene class has been leaked not its blueprints. Plus the above mentioned subs are going for heavy modernisation in Turkey

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## Shankranthi

PARIKRAMA said:


> Enquiry would happen and if found culprit its banning for minimum 10 years,,



There goes our plan to induct 3 more kalavri 




> Pls do go ahead and release it if you also want to make some quick money.. No one says its correct.. not even me.. but manuals dont give out the sensitive portion as claimed by the newspaper..
> 
> Its the source of the leak which is important to find bcz what he might have sold out may turn out to be drop in the ocean.. What other data he has is far more important to find..



I have written/ reviewed /approved/ my fair share of manuals for the IAF and IN to know they contain lots of stuff that needs to be kept out of the hands of enemies.

However you are ASSUMING ALL these are Manuals. Reminds me of an ostrich with head in the sand.

If wishes were horses, ...............

If he had any other data he has illegally obtained, only an idiot would think he has not already sold it. Why else does one steal data ?


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## Blue Marlin

PARIKRAMA said:


> Enquiry would happen and if found culprit its banning for minimum 10 years,,
> 
> 
> Pls do go ahead and release it if you also want to make some quick money.. No one says its correct.. not even me.. but manuals dont give out the sensitive portion as claimed by the newspaper..
> 
> Its the source of the leak which is important to find bcz what he might have sold out may turn out to be drop in the ocean.. What other data he has is far more important to find..
> 
> 
> The whole world will have it.. as is said its the tip of the iceberg or dop in ocean.. what that person also has besides these manuals is far more important..
> 
> From a similar perspective agosta manuals will be similar to these manuals.. Pakistan wont find much new in that.. nor will china who would have already got the same via Pakistan as i believe their cooperation level is much higher.


the agosta is compleatly differant from the scorpene?
they said the leak was likely from the indian side. what are the chances that if these docs are "leaked" what else would have got out? nobody knows but its just a thought.
the french are too professional to just leak out such info.
i think this was leaked on purpose to sabotage the deal or delay it big time. 

as for china and pakistan lets not go there, you guys are not exactly independant in your nuclear sub. but thats for another thread.

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## Shankranthi

salarsikander said:


> yeah but the sorpene class has been leaked not its blueprints. Plus the above mentioned subs are going for heavy modernisation in Turkey



What makes you think that when DCS was so careless with data about sorpene, it would have been the same for Agosta ? if I was a betting man, I would bet my last dollar that DCS has "leaked" all kinds of sensitive information.

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## PARIKRAMA

Blue Marlin said:


> the agosta is compleatly differant from the scorpene?
> they said the leak was likely from the indian side. what are the chances that if these docs are "leaked" what else would have got out? nobody knows but its just a thought.
> the french are too professional to just leak out such info.
> i think this was leaked on purpose to sabotage the deal or delay it big time.
> 
> as for china and pakistan lets not go there, you guys are not exactly independant in your nuclear sub. but thats for another thread.


Corporate espionage, buying out an insider, anti turnbull group, pure lucration of money.. many or any factor(s) may be there..

Agosta was comparison for manuals nothing else..

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## Spectre

Blue Marlin said:


> the agosta is compleatly differant from the scorpene?
> they said the leak was likely from the indian side. what are the chances that if these docs are "leaked" what else would have got out? nobody knows but its just a thought.
> the french are too professional to just leak out such info.
> i think this was leaked on purpose to sabotage the deal or delay it big time.
> 
> as for china and pakistan lets not go there, you guys are not exactly independant in your nuclear sub. but thats for another thread.



Couple of things

Not leaked but stolen by French Naval Officer/contractor for monetary gain as mentioned in article. That is why Australia and USA are concerned. If Scorpene info can be stolen then what else?

DCNS will loose lot of potential business including the giant Australian contract, so they are trying to deflect blame to India as Indian contract is done and they have received major portion of payment. So nothing to loose there as India is already stuck with them as all six scorpenes are under different stages of construction/induction.

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## salarsikander

Shankranthi said:


> What makes you think that when DCS was so careless with data about sorpene, it would have been the same for Agosta


That is what @PARIKRAMA is trying to tell. The info, even which is leaked is just a manual. On how to operate and what not. You cannot exactly replicate a who sub out of it. Though, at best you might be able to get few points on its capacities and limitation, other than that, rest is B.S



Spectre said:


> Couple of things
> 
> Not leaked but stolen by French Naval Officer/contractor for monetary gain as mentioned in article. That is why Australia and USA are concerned. If Scorpene info can be stolen then what else?
> 
> DCNS will loose lot of potential business including the giant Australian contract, so they are trying to deflect blame to India as Indian contract is done and they have received major portion of payment. So nothing to loose there as India is already stuck with them as all six scorpenes are under different stages of construction/induction.



India is already not very happy with rafael drama the french created and now this. I sincerely believe if they try to shift the blame on Indians ( which is very stupid, since why would they leak it ) Then Frenchies can kiss goodbye to any major future procurements from france

@Taygibay Bro. We really need few answers if you can dig em out

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## Shankranthi

Blue Marlin said:


> the agosta is compleatly differant from the scorpene?
> they said the leak was likely from the indian side. what are the chances that if these docs are "leaked" what else would have got out? nobody knows but its just a thought.
> the french are too professional to just leak out such info.
> i think this was leaked on purpose to sabotage the deal or delay it big time.
> 
> as for china and pakistan lets not go there, you guys are not exactly independant in your nuclear sub. but thats for another thread.



The French are Famous for leaking information.

They leaked it during the Falklands wars and betrayed Argentina. 

They leaked NATO air strike war plans to serbs. 

They betrayed Russia over Mistral.

Now this.


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## 50cent

Cool down guys there is no war happening so no problem drink coke and take no tension  watch videos on YouTube

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## PARIKRAMA

Spectre said:


> they have received major portion of payment


Not yet bro.. most of the payments are delayed and on hold due to project delay and not meeting the milestones... If Idnia does cancel and freeze it out, DCNS stands to lose more than 50% + of its dues and the reputation loss will be much more..

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## GuardianRED

PARIKRAMA said:


> Not yet bro.. most of the payments are delayed and on hold due to project delay and not meeting the milestones... If Idnia does cancel and freeze it out, DCNS stands to lose more than 50% + of its dues and the reputation loss will be much more..


Why are we worried abt DCNS, when the IN will stand to loose much MORE! If they cancel the deal or something crazy !

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## Shankranthi

PARIKRAMA said:


> Not yet bro.. most of the payments are delayed and on hold due to project delay and not meeting the milestones... If Idnia does cancel and freeze it out, DCNS stands to lose more than 50% + of its dues and the reputation loss will be much more..



Now all we have to do is spend another 9 Billion $ buying Rafale and pray that they do not leak too much information about that . 

Literally on a Wing and a Prayer.

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## PARIKRAMA

GuardianRED said:


> Why are we worried abt DCNS, when the IN will stand to loose much MORE! If they cancel the deal or something crazy !


If we dont take any action also its a bigger issue.. Unless of course we stuck some bargain and get something else from DCNS for free in lieu of continuing the contract of 6 scorpenes..

This will turn out to be a corporate arm twisting scenario.. DM MP will not let such a chance go.. Either there will be some serious action or some additional things shared by France /DCNS to all aggrieved parties - India and Australia both to salvage their respective deal /potential contract and do damage control

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## SirHatesALot

Yeah buy French


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## Shankranthi

PARIKRAMA said:


> If we dont take any action also its a bigger issue.. Unless of course we stuck some bargain and get something else from DCNS for free in lieu of continuing the contract of 6 scorpenes..
> 
> This will turn out to be a corporate arm twisting scenario.. DM MP will not let such a chance go.. Either there will be some serious action or some additional things shared by France /DCNS to all aggrieved parties - India and Australia both to salvage their respective deal /potential contract and do damage control



If IN still wants to work with DCS after this then they must be word class morons.

DM MP and Ajit Doval have their work cut out. So much for "strategic partnership". Modi with Egg on his face. Solar Alliance in a pickle. 

This is not going to end well for anyone.

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## GuardianRED

PARIKRAMA said:


> If we dont take any action also its a bigger issue.. Unless of course we stuck some bargain and get something else from DCNS for free in lieu of continuing the contract of 6 scorpenes..
> 
> This will turn out to be a corporate arm twisting scenario.. DM MP will not let such a chance go.. Either there will be some serious action or some additional things shared by France /DCNS to all aggrieved parties - India and Australia both to salvage their respective deal /potential contract and do damage control


That is an excellent reply. 

Just hope that the DM doesn't do An Anthony or some opposition party plays the bofors or Agustawestland card and cries Corruption and Scam!



Shankranthi said:


> If IN still wants to work with DCS after this then they must be word class morons.
> 
> DM MP and Ajit Doval have their work cut out. So much for "strategic partnership". Modi with Egg on his face. Solar Alliance in a pickle.
> 
> This is not going to end well for anyone.


What do you expect them to do? Cancel and blacklisted them? and then wait another 10 -20yrs to open another sub line and build a new sub fleet?

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## Shankranthi

GuardianRED said:


> That is an excellent reply.
> 
> Just hope that the DM doesn't do An Anthony or some opposition party plays the bofors or Agustawestland card and cries Corruption and Scam!



Are you Crazy ? This is WORSE than Bofors. 

The opposition will have a field day with this. What ever Modi / DM MP does, its a Lose lose situation. 

At this point we can neither spit them out nor swallow it. We can only hope that we do not choke to death.



GuardianRED said:


> What do you expect them to do? Cancel and blacklisted them? and then wait another 10 -20yrs to open another sub line and build a new sub fleet?



This is Catch 22 situation. 

We have landed in a mess. We stand to lose either way. There is no way of getting out of this without smelling of $hit.

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## GuardianRED

Shankranthi said:


> Are you Crazy ? This is WORSE than Bofors.
> 
> The opposition will have a field day with this. What ever Modi / DM MP does, its a Lose lose situation.
> 
> At this point we can neither spit them out nor swallow it. We can only hope that we do not choke to death.


How is this worst than bofors ? Is this a Scam? is there any middle men? all this is a security leak!



Shankranthi said:


> Are you Crazy ? This is WORSE than Bofors.
> 
> The opposition will have a field day with this. What ever Modi / DM MP does, its a Lose lose situation.
> 
> At this point we can neither spit them out nor swallow it. We can only hope that we do not choke to death.
> 
> 
> 
> This is Catch 22 situation.
> 
> We have landed in a mess. We stand to lose either way. There is no way of getting out of this without smelling of $hit.


Do u know whats a Catch 22 situation IS ?? This isn't one of them!

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## Blue Marlin

Spectre said:


> Couple of things
> 
> Not leaked but stolen by French Naval Officer/contractor for monetary gain as mentioned in article. That is why Australia and USA are concerned. If Scorpene info can be stolen then what else?
> 
> DCNS will loose lot of potential business including the giant Australian contract, so they are trying to deflect blame to India as Indian contract is done and they have received major portion of payment. So nothing to loose there as India is already stuck with them as all six scorpenes are under different stages of construction/induction.


well in that case i feel more has been leaked. you go all in or dont go in at all.
could be the usa still trying to push the aussies to japan. they lobbied them to choose japan. remember this contract is huge and still not signed for. so they can easily say no to france and say hello japan.

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## Shankranthi

GuardianRED said:


> How is this worst than bofors ? Is this a Scam? is there any middle men? all this is a security leak!
> 
> Do u know whats a Catch 22 situation IS ?? This isn't one of them!



If we continue to do business with them them it will smells of corruption and anti national activity.

If we refuse to do business with them it means HUGE Financial loss and loss to IN submarine fleet.

It is a classic Catch 22 situation.

All this while the solar alliance and Rafale deal hanging in balance.

The worse part is that this leak could very well have been done by US or China or Russia to screw up India so that we do not get too close to France.

Let me rephrase that. Its a Lose Lose Lose situation because France could not keep its $hit together. This is what happens when you enter into a bad marriage. Everybody is unhappy.

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## GuardianRED

Shankranthi said:


> If we continue to do business with them them it will smells of corruption and anti national activity.
> 
> If we refuse to do business with them it means HUGE Financial loss and loss to IN submarine fleet.
> 
> It is a classic Catch 22 situation.
> 
> All this while the solar alliance and Rafale deal hanging in balance.


huh??? where is the financial loss?

Where is the corruption?? where is the anti national activity?

and NO u still don't know what is a Catch 22 situation and how can this be CLASSIC?

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## Shankranthi

GuardianRED said:


> huh??? where is the financial loss?
> 
> Where is the corruption?? where is the anti national activity?
> 
> and NO u still don't know what is a Catch 22 situation and how can this be CLASSIC?



Its opportunity cost you idiot. The delay in Scorpene has already cost IN much.

Now that we have spent a fortune in learning how to build a scorpene, we find out its operational effectiveness has been reduced by half due to sensitive leaks.

So now if we spend more money building more scorpene, it means we are only getting half the worth for All the money.

So whatever choice we make now it is going to smell like corruption and opposition can make the claim either way.

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## PARIKRAMA

@Abingdonboy @Nilgiri - in here..

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## Aero

PARIKRAMA said:


> Not yet bro.. most of the payments are delayed and on hold due to project delay and not meeting the milestones... If Idnia does cancel and freeze it out, DCNS stands to lose more than 50% + of its dues and the reputation loss will be much more..


India will also have bank guarantee till we get all subs.

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## Shankranthi

Aero said:


> India will also have bank guarantee till we get all subs.



LOL. What good is that if we get all the subs but our enemies know how to defeat them ?


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## GuardianRED

Shankranthi said:


> Its opportunity cost you idiot. The delay in Scorpene has already cost IN much.
> 
> Now that we have spent a fortune in learning how to build a scorpene, we find out its operational effectiveness has been reduced by half due to sensitive leaks.
> 
> So now if we spend more money building more scorpene, it means we are only getting half the worth for All the money.
> 
> So whatever choice we make now it is going to smell like corruption and opposition can make the claim either way.


That only IF GOI goes and does something stupid and cancels the Deals . Otherwise it is business as usual on the production front!

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## Olaf One-Brow

Shankranthi said:


> LOL. What good is that if we get all the subs but our enemies know how to defeat them ?



It's a submarine. I'm pretty sure we already know how to handle them.

In fact, let me enlighten you on ways to do it:

https://defence.pk/threads/so-you-want-to-detect-a-submarine.362636/


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## PARIKRAMA

Aero said:


> India will also have bank guarantee till we get all subs.


yes of course but PBG will be a very small portion..basically the milestone based payments wont get released.. 

Unfortunately Scopene has much localization and thus a cancellation hits our local MIC very very hard...

Thats why i said arm twisting and get something additional for free in order to complete this deal ...

At this time, the loss to exchequer , local MIC, Mazgaon Dock, people working on it and Indian Navy underwater capability all will make the GOI arm twist.. as no other solution is there..

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## Spectre

Shankranthi said:


> LOL. What good is that if we get all the subs but our enemies know how to defeat them ?



It depends on how the contract is drafted, what are the covenants, how the EoD (event of default) is defined. 

If provision is there to declare event of default and hence breach of contract based on disclosure of sensitive/classified material by DCNS then guarantee cannot be en-cashed by DCNS. 

However in absence of contract, it is tough to say

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## GuardianRED

Shankranthi said:


> LOL. What good is that if we get all the subs but our enemies know how to defeat them ?


There is a LOT more than a leak of some manuals to defeat a Sub , and conjecture is NOT ONE of THEM!

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## Shankranthi

GuardianRED said:


> That only IF GOI goes and does something stupid and cancels the Deals . Otherwise it is business as usual on the production front!



As I said, if the IN wants to continue to deal with DCS after this then they must be world class morons. Worse, the world will see them as world class morons.


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## Spectre

Shankranthi said:


> As I said, if the IN wants to continue to deal with DCS after this then they must be world class morons. Worse, the world will see them as world class morons.



That is true, under no circumstances it can be business as usual. I just pray that leak is not from Indian side. If yes, then there would be hell to pay.

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## GuardianRED

Shankranthi said:


> As I said, if the IN wants to continue to deal with DCS after this then they must be world class morons. Worse, the world will see them as world class morons.


How is the IN the morons! , you are definitely losing the plot here! or u like to use the word morons!?



Spectre said:


> That is true, under no circumstances it can be business as usual. I just pray that leak is not from Indian side. If yes, then there would be hell to pay.



yes A couple of manuals will bring down the IN!


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Blue Marlin said:


> isi...........mowaahahahahah.
> ok jokes over. but if the data was leaked and an aussie paper got it then what are the chances your western neighbour has said data too? just a thought.
> 
> besides sleep well india they have the diesal engines not the drdo aip. i doubt the french have the specs for the aip? right @PARIKRAMA ?



AIP only is for endurance.


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## Shankranthi

Spectre said:


> It depends on how the contract is drafted, what are the covenants, how the EoD (event of default) is defined.
> 
> If provision is there to declare event of default and hence breach of contract based on disclosure of sensitive/classified material by DCNS then guarantee cannot be en-cashed by DCNS.
> 
> However in absence of contract, it is tough to say



This mess it beyond the contract. 

It strike at the root of our relationship with France. How can we trust France anymore with our security secrets ? Even if the EoD is defined and French refuse to own up, (which I am pretty sure they will) are we going to go into arbitration ? 

In European courts ? (which will favour france) (remember italian marines?)

IN were PARTNERS with DCNS. This is not a contract mess. Its a mess with strong political, economic, strategic and military angle. Its one huge smelly poop.


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## Nilgiri

PARIKRAMA said:


> yes of course but PBG will be a very small portion..basically the milestone based payments wont get released..
> 
> Unfortunately Scopene has much localization and thus a cancellation hits our local MIC very very hard...
> 
> Thats why i said arm twisting and get something additional for free in order to complete this deal ...
> 
> At this time, the loss to exchequer , local MIC, Mazgaon Dock, people working on it and Indian Navy underwater capability all will make the GOI arm twist.. as no other solution is there..



I think its just a media over-dramatization that seems to have come from some manual being passed around like you mentioned earlier.

A lot of these kinds of documents often have adjuncts that add what specific proposed changes may be for individual customers (to sell on the fact it can be customised etc)....having read a few myself. For Scorpene, India, Malaysia and others obviously would be included in these....so some fancy words may have stuck out to a media type that got his hands on it.

I really doubt anything really sensitive would be found in such....I mean any country can ask DCNS for such a manual in a RFP to begin with.

Anyways lets wait and see what happens.

Will be interested to see what @Vergennes and @Taygibay and @BON PLAN have to say.

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## Shankranthi

GuardianRED said:


> There is a LOT more than a leak of some manuals to defeat a Sub , and conjecture is NOT ONE of THEM!



So you believe that it was a 22,000 page manual ?  

And you are sure that there is nothing more leaked beyond those pages ?  ............. your faith is truly touching.


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## Blue Marlin

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> AIP only is for endurance.


and stealth


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## Spectre

GuardianRED said:


> yes A couple of manuals will bring down the IN!



How do you know it is "couple of manuals". The OP clearly stated it has details about noise frequency, coms, heat radiation levels etc.

Have you gone through all 22000+ pages to arrive at this irrefutable conclusion?

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## Nilgiri

Shankranthi said:


> So you believe that it was a 22,000 page manual ?



Have you looked at a complete manual for say even a standard FEA software (say abaqus, creo) etc?


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## Olaf One-Brow

Since you guys are now concerned about the French designs, how about an American one?

















Modernized of course, if you would be interested in one of our AIP designs. While the US doesn't build conventional submarines for its own navy, it does do consultation work for others and keep designs in-case the Navy decides it'd like to explore that option. These designs are updated frequently to keep par with existing and expected threats.

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## Shankranthi

Nilgiri said:


> I think its just a media over-dramatization that seems to have come from some manual being passed around like you mentioned earlier.
> 
> A lot of these kinds of documents often have adjuncts that add what specific proposed changes may be for individual customers (to sell on the fact it can be customised etc)....having read a few myself. For Scorpene, India, Malaysia and others obviously would be included in these....so some fancy words may have stuck out to a media type that got his hands on it.
> 
> I really doubt anything really sensitive would be found in such....I mean any country can ask DCNS for such a manual in a RFP to begin with.
> 
> Anyways lets wait and see what happens.
> 
> Will be interested to see what @Vergennes and @Taygibay and @BON PLAN have to say.



Even if it is "Media over dramatization", even if it is prompted by Chinese intelligence to discredit DCNS and France and designed to prevent Australia from buying Scorpene, how does that bring solace to us ? 

What it shows is how easily DCNS sub contractors can steal data. How loose their security system and procedure is. It talks volumes about French security standards. 

The same french security standards that govern secrets of Rafale. How much confidence does this inspire ?

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## GuardianRED

Shankranthi said:


> So you believe that it was a 22,000 page manual ?
> 
> And you are sure that there is nothing more leaked beyond those pages ?  ............. your faith is truly touching.



Have u read the 22,000 pages?

and your lack of faith disturbing!



Spectre said:


> How do you know it is "couple of manuals". The OP clearly stated it has details about noise frequency, coms, heat radiation levels etc.
> 
> Have you gone through all 22000+ pages to arrive at this irrefutable conclusion?



Yes Radiation levels in a Diesel Electricl Sub! ... yes that will bring down the IN


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

This is old news we already have this information

It was a gift from some friends from the Baltic


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## Spectre

GuardianRED said:


> Yes Radiation levels in a Diesel Electricl Sub! ... yes that will bring down the IN



Oh Genius! Do you think there is only one type of radiation? Did you even read my post? Did you perhaps notice the prefix "Heat"

Bloody amateurs..

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## Shankranthi

GuardianRED said:


> Have u read the 22,000 pages?
> 
> and your lack of faith disturbing!
> 
> Yes Radiation levels in a Diesel Electricl Sub! ... yes that will bring down the IN



The last time Indian Defence forces had "faith" in other nations, China came in right upto Assam. So spare me the sermons on 'faith'. 

How are you sure only 22,000 odd pages have been leaked ? Those are just the pages with the News Paper. There could very well be 50,000 pages of leaked information.



Nilgiri said:


> Have you looked at a complete manual for say even a standard FEA software (say abaqus, creo) etc?



yes.


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## Olaf One-Brow

Spectre said:


> Oh Genius! Do you think there is only one type of radiation? Did you even read my post? Did you perhaps notice the prefix "Heat"



The heat levels matter when surfaced, but thermal energy dissipates too quickly while submerged to be a major factor in detection.

Noise frequency is the big threat, but coms is another strange one. SubComs tend to be either directional or dissipated via water. I've done a few posts on the matter. I'll dig them up for you as I don't really feel like going over this again.

...

@Spectre here's a brief one on noise - be patient, I'm going through some posts to find the others.

https://defence.pk/threads/pakistan-iran-joint-naval-drill.436746/page-3#post-8419338

This isn't the exact post I wanted, but it gives a good introductory look at comms:

https://defence.pk/threads/the-myst...ng-the-west-the-drizzles.344611/#post-6445754

...

Alright, I can't find the specific post I'm looking for. basically with communications it's this:

1.) SubCom are highly directional. To intercept them you'd need to park a system directly overhead of the submarine, in between the submarines up/down link and those of the satellite its talking with and keep it there, where it'll interfere with the beam, be detected and the communication will be ceased, thus foiling the attempted interception of the comms.

Same with communications with orbiting aircraft like nuclear bombs who act may be acting as a relay for the submarine's weapons, or as a communications channel.

In this respect they, the sub's communications nodes, are similar to satellites whose directional nature makes intercepting data from them, their up or downlink or their receiving party very difficult. Up close there is leakage and an inspection satellite like MiteX A/B could gather SIGINT, but putting a mass near another to gather data will interfere with the larger mass's orbit, causing it to wobble (much like a star from orbiting planets) and this can be detected from ground crews who will switch to a contingency.

There is very little "leakage" of electronic energy from a submarine.

2.) Like heat, electromagnetic energy dissipates quickly underwater. Ultra-low frequencies are used to communication, but only near the surface. The most used options are low frequency LEDs or wire guidance.

If I find the posts I'm looking for I'll add them above.

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## GuardianRED

Spectre said:


> Oh Genius! Do you think there is only one type of radiation? Did you even read my post? Did you perhaps notice the prefix "Heat"
> 
> Bloody amateurs..



And all this is sensitive information is mentioned in documents even before the Sub was built and tested !. 

and Again HEAT radiation in a Diesel Electric Sub. 

Lack of knowledge for some senior i see!


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## Vergennes

@Nilgiri 


The highest authorities are investigating the case,but it seems like the datas were taken out of France in 2011 by a former Navy officer,that was back then a contractor for DCNS. The documents could have landed in some south east asia companies' hands before landing in Australia... So,everyone is implying that it's the indians that leaked all of this. @Blue Marlin 

Investigations will tell everything.

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## Spectre

Olaf One-Brow said:


> The heat levels matter when surfaced, but thermal energy dissipates too quickly while submerged to be a major factor in detection.
> 
> Noise frequency is the big threat, but coms is another strange one. SubComs tend to be either directional or dissipated via water. I've done a few posts on the matter. I'll dig them up for you as I don't really feel like going over this again.
> 
> ...
> 
> @Spectre here's a brief one on noise:
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/pakistan-iran-joint-naval-drill.436746/page-3#post-8419338



I agree, some may be critical information and some may not be so but then again it is about the principle of thing.

If the information is marked as classified then it should not have been leaked.

1. Thermal signatures in non aip subs play a substantial role in detection AFAIK even when submerged particularly if another sub/ sensors are in vicinity. When not submerged, specific signatures if known - can provide classification information to enemy vessels or airborne assets.

2. I honestly have no clue about subcom, however it stands to reason that protocols will be handy. Specially when we talk about sub to satellite communication. I remember it was a taboo subject last we touched upon it 



GuardianRED said:


> And all this is sensitive information is mentioned in documents even before the Sub was built and tested !.
> 
> and Again HEAT radiation in a Diesel Electric Sub.
> 
> Lack of knowledge for some senior i see!



Perhaps you can tell me something concrete instead of just repeating what I said, in a rhetorical manner?

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## Papa Dragon

What a beat up! "RESTRICTED" is the lowest level of security classification usually used for training pamphlets and brochures etc. It is certainly not SECRET. What is more interesting is what is the motivation for the beat up?

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## Nilgiri

Shankranthi said:


> yes.



And how many pages are they for say ABAQUS?



Shankranthi said:


> Even if it is "Media over dramatization", even if it is prompted by Chinese intelligence to discredit DCNS and France and designed to prevent Australia from buying Scorpene, how does that bring solace to us ?
> 
> What it shows is how easily DCNS sub contractors can steal data. How loose their security system and procedure is. It talks volumes about French security standards.
> 
> The same french security standards that govern secrets of Rafale. How much confidence does this inspire ?



Why dont you let the investigations commence and conclude before coming to your conclusions based on a media report?

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## Shankranthi

Nilgiri said:


> And how many pages are they for say ABAQUS?


I did not say I have read one for ABAQUS. How is that relevant ? You are attempting to win the debate by Ad Hominem ?



Nilgiri said:


> Why dont you let the investigations commence and conclude before coming to your conclusions based on a media report?



LOL... are you expecting the complete result of this investigation into a defence leak in the public domain ?


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## Nilgiri

Shankranthi said:


> I did not say I have read one for ABAQUS. How is that relevant ? You are attempting to win the debate by discrediting me ?



You seem to have no idea about how big manuals can be. For a submarine it would be a multi-volume collection of large individual books....given that even a standard FEA software runs into thousands of pages for very much the same reason (module structures, operating instructions, examples, multiple approaches, features, appendices etc etc) without having to contain top secret data necessarily.

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## Blue Marlin

Vergennes said:


> @Nilgiri
> 
> 
> The highest authorities are investigating the case,but it seems like the datas were taken out of France in 2011 by a former Navy officer,that was back then a contractor for DCNS. The documents could have landed in some south east asia companies' hands before landing in Australia... So,everyone is implying that it's the indians that leaked all of this. @Blue Marlin
> 
> Investigations will tell everything.


thanks for clearing it up but if the data wa taken out of france in 2011 then why was it being leaked 5 years later?

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## Nilgiri

Shankranthi said:


> LOL... are you expecting the complete result of this investigation into a defence leak in the public domain ?



Indian and French higher ups can determine the best course of action....definitely a more relevant one compared to an internet troll.

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## Shankranthi

Nilgiri said:


> You seem to have no idea about how big manuals can be. For a submarine it would be a multi-volume collection of large individual books....given that even a standard FEA software runs into thousands of pages for very much the same reason (module structures, operating instructions, examples, multiple approaches, features, appendices etc etc) without having to contain top secret data necessarily.



I am currently the Program Head in an Defence company. What exactly do you do kiddo ?


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## Olaf One-Brow

Spectre said:


> I remember it was a *taboo su**bject *last we touched upon it



It still is, and I'll have to do bad and completely deniable things to you if we get into too much detail.

When did we last get into it by the way? I've been gone for a while, as per usual and don't remember having this discussion.



Spectre said:


> 1. Thermal signatures in non aip subs play a substantial role in detection AFAIK even when submerged particularly if another sub/ sensors are in vicinity. When not submerged, specific signatures if known - can provide classification information to enemy vessels or airborne assets.



Not really. There are far better options that we leveraged.

Options for gathering useful signatures beyond the usual ones. I'd really have to kill you for getting into that discussion though.



Spectre said:


> 2. I honestly have no clue about subcom, however it stands to reason that protocols will be handy.



There are protocols and they are very handy. I helped set, enforce and test them.

They are classified.

...

I did a series on the subject, EMSEC and COMSEC. I can find these threads for anyone interested.

Be warned that they are heavy reading and very technical.


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## Nilgiri

Shankranthi said:


> I am currently the Program Head in an Defence company. What exactly do you do kiddo ?



Yes you can be anything you want to be on the internet. Kudos to you!

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## Shankranthi

Nilgiri said:


> Indian and French higher ups can determine the best course of action....definitely a more relevant one compared to an internet troll.



Then what are you doing here ? Wait for the report before you choose to comment. Take you own advice.



Nilgiri said:


> Yes you can be anything you want to be on the internet. Kudos to you!



You would know. What are you today ?


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## Olaf One-Brow

Shankranthi said:


> I am currently the Program Head in an Defence company. What exactly do you do kiddo ?



 Me too!!

No really, I am. Well, not defense company.

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## Shankranthi

Olaf One-Brow said:


> Me too!!
> 
> No really,I am. Well, not defense company.



I really am too. In a defence company with credited delivery to Boeing, ISRO and IN.


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## Nilgiri

Shankranthi said:


> You would know. What are you today ?



I only talk about it to people I respect and interact with in a meaningful way here. People like @PARIKRAMA , @AndrewJin ,@anant_s and others.....why would I want to talk about such with the likes of you? You can look up my post history with keywords like PW, pratt, scramjet, turbofan, blisk and others if you are so interested about me.

Now sit back, watch and stop coming to conclusions based on media reports.

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## Vergennes

PARIKRAMA said:


> If only people know whats written really
> *
> First the article*
> ++++
> *Our French submarine builder in massive leak scandal*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Indian Navy’s first Scorpene submarine in Mumbai last year.
> 
> 
> The Australian
> 12:00AM August 24, 2016
> *CAMERON STEWART*
> 
> 
> 
> Associate Editor
> Melbourne
> @camstewarttheoz
> The French company that won the bid to design Australia’s new $50 billion submarine fleet has suffered a massive leak of secret documents, raising fears about the future security of top-secret data on the navy’s future fleet.
> 
> The stunning leak, which runs to 22,400 pages and has been seen by _The Australian_, details the entire secret combat capability of the six Scorpene-class submarines that French shipbuilder DCNS has designed for the Indian Navy.
> 
> A variant of the same French-designed Scorpene is also used by the navies of Malaysia, Chile and, from 2018, Brazil, so news of the Edward Snowden-sized leak — revealed today — will trigger alarm at the highest level in these countries. Marked “Restricted Scorpene India”, the DCNS documents detail the most sensitive combat capabilities of India’s new $US3 bn ($3.9bn) submarine fleet and would provide an intelligence bonanza if obtained by India’s strategic rivals, such as Pakistan or China.
> 
> The leak will spark grave concern in Australia and especially in the US where senior navy officials have privately expressed fears about the security of top-secret data entrusted to France.
> 
> In April DCNS, which is two-thirds owned by the French government, won the hotly contested bid over Germany and Japan to design 12 new submarines for Australia. Its proposed submarine for Australia — the yet-to-be-built Shortfin Barracuda — was chosen ahead of its rivals because it was considered to be the quietest in the water, making it perfectly suited to intelligence-gathering operations against China and others in the region.
> 
> Any stealth advantage for the navy’s new submarines would be gravely compromised if data on its planned combat and performance capabilities was leaked in the same manner as the data from the Scorpene. The leaked DCNS data details the secret stealth capabilities of the six new Indian submarines, including what frequencies they gather intelligence at, what levels of noise they make at various speeds and their diving depths, range and endurance — all sensitive information that is highly classified. The data tells the submarine crew where on the boat they can speak safely to avoid detection by the enemy. It also discloses magnetic, electromagnetic and infra-red data as well as the specifications of the submarine’s torpedo launch system and the combat system.
> 
> It details the speed and conditions needed for using the periscope, the noise specifications of the propeller and the radiated noise levels that occur when the submarine surfaces.
> 
> The data seen by _The Australian _includes 4457 pages on the submarine’s underwater sensors, 4209 pages on its above-water sensors, 4301 pages on its combat management system, 493 pages on its torpedo launch system and specifications, 6841 pages on the sub’s communications system and 2138 on its navigation systems.
> 
> _The Australian_ has chosen to redact sensitive information from the documents.
> 
> Sea trials for the first of India’s six Scorpene submarines began in May. The project is running four years behind schedule.
> 
> The Indian Navy has boasted that its Scorpene submarines have superior stealth features, which give them a major advantage against other submarines.
> 
> The US will be alarmed by the leak of the DCNS data because Australia hopes to install an American combat system — with the latest US stealth technology — in the French Shortfin Barracuda.
> 
> If Washington does not feel confident that its “crown jewels’’ of stealth technology can be protected, it may decline to give Australia its state-of-the-art combat system.
> 
> DCNS yesterday sought to reassure Australians that the leak of the data on the Indian Scorpene submarine would not happen with its proposed submarine for Australia. The company also implied — but did not say directly — that the leak might have occurred at India’s end, rather than from France. “Uncontrolled technical data is not possible in the Australian arrangements,” the company said. “Multiple and independent controls exist within DCNS to prevent unauthorised access to data and all data movements are encrypted and recorded. In the case of India, where a DCNS design is built by a local company, DCNS is the provider and not the controller of technical data.
> 
> “In the case of Australia, and unlike India, DCNS is both the provider and in-country controller of technical data for the full chain of transmission and usage over the life of the submarines.”
> 
> *However, The Australian has been told that the data on the Scorpene was written in France for India in 2011 and is suspected of being removed from France in that same year by a former French Navy officer who was at that time a DCNS subcontractor.*
> 
> *The data is then believed to have been taken to a company in Southeast Asia, possibly to assist in a commercial venture for a regional navy.*
> 
> *It was subsequently passed by a third party to a second company in the region before being sent on a data disk by regular mail to a company in Australia. It is unclear how widely the data has been shared in Asia or whether it has been obtained by foreign intelligence agencies.*
> 
> *The data seen by The Australian also includes separate confidential DCNS files on plans to sell French frigates to Chile and the French sale of the Mistral-class amphibious assault ship carrier to Russia. These DCNS projects have no link to India, which adds weight to the probability that the data files were removed from DCNS in France.*
> 
> DCNS Australia this month signed a deed of agreement with the Defence Department, paving the way for talks over the contract which will guide the design phase of the new submarines. The government plans to build 12 submarines in Adelaide to replace the six-boat Collins-class fleet from the early 2030s. The Shortfin Barracuda will be a slightly shorter, conventionally powered version of France’s new fleet of Barracuda-class nuclear submarines.
> 
> *Restricted data*
> 
> The secret information the leaked documents reveal:
> 
> • The stealth capabilities of the six new Indian Scorpene submarines
> • The frequencies at which the subs gather intelligence
> • The levels of noise the subs make at various speeds
> • Diving depths, range and endurance
> • Magnetic, electromagnetic and infra-red data
> • Specifications of the submarine’s torpedo launch system and the combat system
> • Speed and conditions needed for using the periscope
> • Propeller’s noise specifications
> • Radiated noise levels when the submarine surfaces
> ++++
> 
> *Whats the data leaked really and whats the preview the newspaper gave out..*
> View attachment 328351
> 
> 
> thats the cover of 1st PDF it has attached to showcase reference
> 
> What do you expect technical manuals to have within? Of course technical side of how to operate and troubleshoot basic things..
> 
> Buy any electronic device even an apple iphone, wont you get technical manuals? yes a repair guy would have more detailed circuit board level stuff but that is for trouble shooting.. and Manuals dont have circuits.. its basically process of how to operate and what to do in case its a trouble/issue.. teh flowchart of steps really.. *not for building a sub with details of metallurgy or so called other technological stuff which can be replicated..*
> 
> the second pdf talks about acoustic noise under certain conditions (lol sea state 1 meaning super calm bright sunny weather with no problems) noise levels in different compartment. Smartass folks forget the sub testing is done to check acoustic noise seen within individual compartments during sea trials to see if build of the sub matches with the laid out details or not and thus acoustic noise is measured for each portion in different conditions. So if we measure X, will not be there a reference to check and say yes it conforms to the build quality as laid and contracted by DCNS with GOI.. These are called as guaranteed noise levels... anything beyond those levels and sub goes back to do more insulation and may not get quality certification iuf consistently it breaches those guaranteed stuff for anything and everything..
> 
> the third part and biggest chunk, comprising of 2342 pages and are actually documentation manual of the parts and training documents.
> 
> In simple words, if i get documentation manuals, technical manuals and training manuals can i build scorpene sub? Can i reverse engineer it? Can i compromise, cripple and make scorpene sub useless?
> 
> Its height of stupidity really.. yes someone leaked but again its not really the core critical stuff.. We must plug the leak source but The Australian is using the vested interest angle to rub DCNS in a wrong way.. The way it is, its clear they dont want DCNS to ink the contract of SEA1000. Perhaps this might turn out to be a case of yellow journalism with intentional espionage and leakage by Rivals of DCNS.
> 
> *As far as India is concerned, these manuals are written in 2010-2011.. Kalavari is on sea trials now.. You know even for LCA tejas there will be 5000 pages of technical manuals.. its for pilots training, for basic repair crew etc.. same its for sailors and crew.. Nothing so sensitive is shared in manuals in the first place.. mostly the doc set of captain may have sensitive some frequencies for communication but that is never going to be shared with normal manuals nor codes for torpedo launch or sensitive Battle Management system codes etc..
> 
> This is a clear case of poor attempt to drag a company to score brownie points (Anti Turnbull group) and use DCNS and India names to glorify the case and grab eyeballs.. Thats my assessment after going through the prelim data ..*
> 
> Tagging the whole world.. its time such news items are given the right place.. sensationalism at its best..
> 
> @Abingdonboy @anant_s @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @Vergennes @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @MilSpec @Koovie @Echo_419 @Dash @hellfire @ito @SR-91 @AMCA @DesiGuy1403 @ranjeet @hellfire @fsayed @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Sergi @Water Car Engineer @dadeechi @kurup @Rain Man @kaykay @Joe Shearer @Tshering22 @Dandpatta @danger007 @Didact @Soumitra @SrNair @TejasMk3@jbgt90 @ranjeet @4GTejasBVR @The_Showstopper @guest11 @egodoc222 @Nilgiri @SarthakGanguly @Omega007 @GURU DUTT @HariPrasad @JanjaWeed @litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular @Spectre@litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular@Ryuzaki @CorporateAffairs @GR!FF!N @migflug @Levina@SvenSvensonov @-xXx- @Perpendicular @proud_indian @Mustang06 @Param @Local_Legend @Ali Zadi @hellfire @egodoc222 @CorporateAffairs @Major Shaitan Singh @jha @SmilingBuddha @#hydra# @danish_vij @[Bregs] @Skillrex @Hephaestus @SR-91 @Techy @litefire @R!CK @zebra7 @dev_moh @DesiGuy1403 @itachii @nik141993 @Marxist @Glorino @noksss @jbgt90 @Skull and Bones @Kraitcorp @Crixus @waz @WAJsal @Oscar @Blue Marlin @jhungary @AugenBlick @Star Wars @GuardianRED @arp2041 @Aero @Penguin @others



@Abingdonboy @Blue Marlin @Nilgiri 

Our friend Parik's post tell everything.
To be honest,I won't be surprised if there's a "foreign" hand involved in this... there's a country that was bothered by France's victory in the aussie bid.... they were pushing hard for the japanese design to be chosen,and made the aussies know that they were worried about "sensitive" datas being stolen or leaked and were puting in question DCNS's security......
Is all of this staged to ruin the DCNS's reputation so to have an effect on the Sea1000 ? Let's see...

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## Shankranthi

Nilgiri said:


> I only talk about it to people I respect and interact with in a meaningful way here. People like @PARIKRAMA , @AndrewJin ,@anant_s and others.....why would I want to talk about such with the likes of you? You can look up my post history with keywords like PW, pratt, scramjet, turbofan, blisk and others if you are so interested about me.



That is the thing, I am NOT interested in you. Only the topic. (unlike you).


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## Spectre

Olaf One-Brow said:


> It still is, and I'll have to do bad and completely deniable things to you if we get into too much detail.
> 
> When did we last get into it by the way? I've been gone for a while, as per usual and don't remember having this discussion.
> 
> 
> 
> Not really. There are far better options that we leveraged.
> 
> Options for gathering useful signatures beyond the usual ones. I'd really have to kill you for getting into that discussion though.



Honestly I don't even want to know, basics are enough.


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## Nilgiri

Shankranthi said:


> That is the thing, I am NOT interested in you. Only the topic. (unlike you).



Then why ask things like "what are you today?" Or are you trying to be a rhetorical smarty pants? It will back-fire badly.

Just like earlier you were like "yeah i've read them!!" when I asked about FEA (specifically abaqus and creo)manuals....and later you were all "I never said I read them".

Anyways enough waste of time talking to you in this topic. Good day.



Vergennes said:


> @Abingdonboy @Blue Marlin @Nilgiri
> 
> Our friend Parik's post tell everything.
> To be honest,I won't be surprised if there's a "foreign" hand involved in this... there's a country that was bothered by France's victory in the aussie bid.... they were pushing hard for the japanese design to be chosen,and made the aussies know that they were worried about "sensitive" datas being stolen or leaked and were puting in question DCNS's security......
> Is all of this staged to ruin the DCNS's reputation so to have an effect on the Sea1000 ? Let's see...



The actual restricted stuff released will have to be reviewed by the authorities to decide what best course of action is. Right now there is not much to go upon....someone already mentioned "restricted" is quite a low level and wide security classification....so I get the gut feeling its "manual+" (+ being some specific technical adjuncts that we can only speculate on detail and depth).

Anyways yes we have to wait and see.

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## Blue Marlin

Vergennes said:


> @Abingdonboy @Blue Marlin @Nilgiri
> 
> Our friend Parik's post tell everything.
> To be honest,I won't be surprised if there's a "foreign" hand involved in this... there's a country that was bothered by France's victory in the aussie bid.... they were pushing hard for the japanese design to be chosen,and made the aussies know that they were worried about "sensitive" datas being stolen or leaked and were puting in question DCNS's security......
> Is all of this staged to ruin the DCNS's reputation so to have an effect on the Sea1000 ? Let's see...


could be the usa still pushing for japan. or jpan pushing for japan or a foreign inteligance agency who want to cause probelms to india, france and austrailia.

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## Shankranthi

Nilgiri said:


> Then why ask things like "what are you today?" Or are you trying to be a rhetorical smarty pants? It will back-fire badly.
> 
> Just like earlier you were like "yeah i've read them!!" when I asked about FEA (specifically abaqus and creo)manuals....and later you were all "I never said I read them".
> 
> Anyways enough waste of time talking to you in this topic. Good day.



I said 'yes', to having read large manuals since I approve them for all my projects. In fact I am reviewing a few documents even now.

Half my job is reviewing documents of all kinds from contracts, to design documents to process documents to manuals and I have been doing them for years.

So now that I know that you are a kid with a fragile ego, remember to stay away.


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## Nilgiri

Olaf One-Brow said:


> I did a series on the subject, EMSEC and COMSEC. I can find these threads for anyone interested.
> 
> Be warned that they are heavy reading and very technical.



I am interested...

Are they archived here in this forum under another account name of yours perhaps?

BTW, be careful posting links to other forums directly, it is against this forum rules.


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## dadeechi

This would be bigger headache for DCNS than anyone else.

Countries would no longer trust their products.

Seems like a huge sabotage by their competitor.

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## Olaf One-Brow

Spectre said:


> Honestly I don't even want to know, basics are enough.



I can't get into too much detail, but there are alternative methods to the normal electromagnetic or SONAR detection that is most common.

Tracking sea life moving away from the submarine has been shown possible, though the ocean isn't saturated and it's inconsistent at best as a form of detection. Think of this like John Warner here. While these dolphins are playing, there are methods, such as SONAR or various remote sensing capabilities (the exact methods are classified) to track the movement of sea life moving away from the submarine:







I know we had a discussion about reactor noise on AMF, but what we didn't have a discussion about is reactor leakage. Radiological contaminants. Nothing that would be harmful to the crew, but definitely noticeable enough to orbiting aircraft like the WC-135 Constant Phoenix that monitors deep underground North Korean nuclear tests:






The US also maintains a fleet of radiological contaminant detecting UAVs, for tracking radiological material smuggling, such as stolen medical waste or to patrol high value, high traffic areas such as G20 meetings or Olympics, where terrorism concerns are heightened.






The United States maintains a handful of maritime orient versions.

Water is great at diluting nuclear particles, but a near surface nuclear boat, or Boomer near surface to fire its weapons can be detected. The depth of detection, you guessed it, is classified.

Wave currents can also be detected. While streamlined, a moving body does create a current, typically in a V shape. Noise is also generated during this event and it's one of the main reasons we see submarine sails, dive plains and rudders being refined, such as the Virginia Class's storable dive plains and angled forward tower.






How these currents are detected is not something I can currently give out.

Finally, though they are a significant contributor to noise, cavitation, or bubbles as they are often known as, can leave a detectable trail. The prop designs are giving way to Pump Jets which produce less and less long-lasting bubble trails. While the bubbles themselves dissipate rather quickly, and generate detectable noise in the process, disturbed water lingers longer and can be detected.






Pump Jets help with this problem.

This is a but a few signatures that are alternatives to the electromagnetic and acoustic that most people highlight when discussing ASW warfare. They are not the only alternative methods.

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## Shankranthi

dadeechi said:


> This would be bigger headache for DCNS than anyone else.
> 
> Countries would no longer trust their products.
> 
> Seems like a huge sabotage by their competitor.



DCNS has no business blaming others for this. They screwed up big time by not having a half decent document control or even access control.

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## Olaf One-Brow

Nilgiri said:


> I am interested...



Search through my myriad of + ratings. This series is where I got most of them from:

https://defence.pk/members/svensvensonov.163324/

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## Nilgiri

Olaf One-Brow said:


> Search through my myriad of + ratings. This series is where I got most of them from:
> 
> https://defence.pk/members/svensvensonov.163324/



Oh you are sven!....haha now i get it!

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## dadeechi

Shankranthi said:


> DCNS has no business blaming others for this. They screwed up big time by not having a half decent document control or even access control.



Fully agreed. I am actually very surprised how such documents could be copied out of their network... This is a huge IT security lapse. Even mom and pop shops have very tight security in place.

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## Olaf One-Brow

Blue Marlin said:


> could be the usa still pushing for japan. or jpan pushing for japan or a foreign inteligance agency who want to cause probelms to india, france and Australia.



I'm not sure what the US would have to gain as it tries to court India, in fact, it'd lose more if India determined the US was behind this incident, like future contracts or consideration, cooperation agreements and diplomatic potential, which is vital as the US tries to keep a certain nation in check, for which India's assistance is very welcomed.

We aren't so desperate for contracts that we'd sabotage a minor deal, for six submarines, just to get a few contracts for systems put into Japanese exported boats, assuming India would even want US systems like Norway does with their Ula replacement or Australia does with their Collins replacement.

If the goal was to boost Japan's export industry and get them a major contract, well that goes again US wishes to expand our own defense industry, so we'd be shooting ourselves in the knee.

The US would lose a lot more then if could potentially gain, as the gains aren't even significant. It's not like we aren't interested in their capabilities though, we just wouldn't go around plastering them on the internet.






Maybe Russia trying to sabotage India's tender and drum up some business for Kilo or Lada or the developmental Kalina class, but again, they'd have much to lose if their fingers are found on the leak.

Now has anyone seen my hat?

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## mrwarrior006

Menace2Society said:


> Image leaked. As you can see all very hi tech and top of the range, only the best for supapowapowa




Irony is Pakistan cant even develop this

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## Nilgiri

Olaf One-Brow said:


> Now has anyone seen my hat?



Down aisle 4 next to the paper cups.

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## Abingdonboy

Vergennes said:


> @Abingdonboy @Blue Marlin @Nilgiri
> 
> Our friend Parik's post tell everything.
> To be honest,I won't be surprised if there's a "foreign" hand involved in this.


This is the first thing I thought of when I saw this news and the timing is no coincidence.

I'm also intersted to see who this affects DCNS's standing in India. From what I can see DCNS was set to see enourmous revenues from India in the coming decade (it has already tied up with Indian entities and is participating in a number of Indian procurements).Most immediately, I would wonder how this affects the follow on order for 3-6 addtional Scorpenes for the IN that was in the advanced stages of clearance? @PARIKRAMA any ideas bro? Of course it depends on the nature of the leaked information and this will only be known to a few induviduals as of right now but in a worst case scenerio the IN's most advanced SSKs are comprimised before they even join the active fleet and the chances of follow-on orders are next to nil.

There is a HUGE ammount on the line for DCNS (literally tens of billions of euros and their entire reputation), so I am sure they will pressure the French government to throw their maximum resources to tackle this spectacuar scandel. Heads are surely set to roll.



Blue Marlin said:


> thanks for clearing it up but if the data wa taken out of france in 2011 then why was it being leaked 5 years later?


Now that is the multi multi billion dollar question....

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## wiseone2

Spectre said:


> Very serious.. In better places, contract would be scrapped, subs returned and DCNS banned and penalized but this being India, they will likely get a free pass and information leakage would be downplayed.
> 
> Dont be naive - this is corporate damage control.. I have seen it hundreds of times - it smells exactly the same everytime.
> 
> Just look at how DCNS is washing it's hands off.. They are least bothered about India - Putting the blame on India to salvage the Australian contract. They did this earlier too at expense of India when they promised Aussies exclusivity and specially mentioned India would not be granted access to certain tech..
> 
> _The DCNS also implied that the leak might have occurred at India's end, rather than from France.
> 
> "Uncontrolled technical data is not possible in the Australian Aarrangements," the company said as per the report in The Australian.
> 
> "Multiple and independent controls exist within DCNS to prevent unauthorised access to data and all data movements are encrypted and recorded. In the case of India, where a DCNS design is built by a local company, DCNS is the provider and not the controller of technical data," it said_



Does India have a choice here ?


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## Abingdonboy

+ @PARIKRAMA @Vergennes I don't want to go too far down the rabbit hole and get too "tin foil hat esque" but I find it very odd/interesting that once again there is news that targets DCNS's bid for the Aussie sub project that has an Indian element. Remember the news not long ago that said that France/DCNS would be unable to seel certain tech to India if/when the Aussies selected the Barracuda at the behest of the Australians who had explictly singled out India (which was later refuted)? Now once again India is being dragged into the Aussie sub project and it seems all three nations are going to get very hurt.

It's all very bizzare and I don't think it's a coincidence.

Japan, China,Russia and maybe even the Americans all seek to gain immensely here.

I hope, whatever the reality that the truth is exposed for all to see and I trust the French to do this- all too often India allows the truth to be lost behind soft words and diplomatic "considerations". I'm glad this happened with the French (as opposed to the Russians who seem unable to tell the truth) the French prosecutors will call a spade a spade.



dadeechi said:


> This would be bigger headache for DCNS than anyone else.
> 
> Countries would no longer trust their products.
> 
> Seems like a huge sabotage by their competitor.


Very very true, it is DCNS that would be hurt more than anyone else depending on the nature of the lapse.

But it should also be noted that it is rather well known that China has hacked/sourced detailed project plans and blueprints for the F-22 and F-35 (as well as the USN's latest warships) and the US ackowledges as much but this has hardly factored into those actual products being questioned. It is all about the details- who got what and when.

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## A_Poster

SirHatesALot said:


> Yeah buy French




If not, what else?

Americans would control how you use their weapons and whom you target with them.
Continental European ,barring France, are hypocrite cucks who could turn against you anytime over mythical human rights violations.At least French are only interested in profits.
Russia is a completely different actor. If we want Russian tech, we would not had looked for western tech.

This incident (and lot others kaands too) highlight the need to have your own defence industry. But wait! Even that is not completely leak proof. Our very own 'secular' Trinmool congress placed a secular ISI agent to spy on Kamrota class in Garden reach using its union.





Spectre said:


> That is true, under no circumstances it can be business as usual. I just pray that leak is not from Indian side. If yes, then there would be hell to pay.



If the leak is from Indian side, a purge of suspected corrupt officers is in order. Doing corruption in form of skimming some profits on foreign products is bad enough, but leaking classified information is a whole new form of corruption and much more serious.




Spectre said:


> Very serious.. In better places, contract would be scrapped, subs returned and DCNS banned and penalized but this being India, they will likely get a free pass and information leakage would be downplayed.



Even if everything about this submarine has been leaked, the contract could not be scraped at this stage. The worst that could be done is not to order add on submarines, and make some modification in those who are already in construction.Else IN would be submarineless for a decade.

An example of this is already in form of BlackShark torpedo. Even after going through all that song and dance of banning Finmecca, government has to go back on its word and eat crow to allow Black shark torpedo ,within a month, as subs have been designed with specifications of that torpedo.


Also knowing and being able to target is not the same thing. So even after leak of worst kind, these submarines would be quite capable against Pakistan, but same can't be said about China.



wiseone2 said:


> Does India have a choice here ?



NO.



Shankranthi said:


> The worse part is that this leak could very well have been done by US or China or Russia to screw up India so that we do not get too close to France.
> 
> Let me rephrase that. Its a Lose Lose Lose situation because France could not keep its $hit together. This is what happens when you enter into a bad marriage. Everybody is unhappy.



If leak is substantial, you could rule out China. If they had got their hand on some secrets, they would have kept their mouth shut.

Biggest gainer from this (if leak is substantial) would be Russia and USA in that order.


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## Olaf One-Brow

A_Poster said:


> Biggest gainer from this (if leak is substantial) would be Russia and *USA* in that order.



Explain. I've given some counterpoints as to why I think it's not in the US interest (state sponsored leaks).

https://defence.pk/threads/sensitiv...-submarines-leaked.445677/page-7#post-8606667

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## Ankit Kumar 002

I smell happiness at TKMS headquarters lol 

But the said leak, @PARIKRAMA how does it affect the operations? Meaning is there any chance which will make the Kalavari more vulnerable? 

For a moment if say China does obtain details about its diesel engines , or some special design features , will it affect Scorpenes here ? 

Personally thinking No. Scorpenes fulfill the coastal defence role perfectly and we will eventually have a dozen of them for coastal operations. 

Australians will be having a bigger problem.Paying 50+ Billion USD , yet no guarantee that their best submarines details will be safe. 


Coming back , the Kalavari as of today and some time down the line will be quite different from the Scorpene w.r.t. communication equipment, surveillance equipment , weapons and AIP. 


But I really see Germans and Russians taking a respite. 

On our side a comprehensive audit about capabilities after the leak should be carried out by Navy , and a investigation by MoD.

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## A_Poster

Olaf One-Brow said:


> Explain. I've given some counterpoints as to why I think it's not in the US interest (state sponsored leaks).
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/sensitive-data-of-indian-navy’s-scorpene-class-submarines-leaked.445677/page-7#post-8606667




Even if USA has not leaked this, they/you still stand to gain most from undermining ofFrench reputation, iff leak is substantial and from inside DCNS.

Your counterpoints only pertain to why USA would not leak the information.

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## Olaf One-Brow

A_Poster said:


> Even if USA has not leaked this, they/you still stand to gain most from undermining Franch reputation, iff leak is substantial and from DCNS.



Why? Why would the US benefit? For a few lousy contracts at the expense of future cooperation with both India and France?

The risk/reward seems very heavily weighted to risk. There's simply no value in undermining a few submarines, that US allies are also buying and integrating US systems into. It makes little sense.

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## A_Poster

Olaf One-Brow said:


> Why? Why would the US benefit? For a few lousy contracts at the expense of future cooperation with both India and France?
> 
> The risk/reward seems very heavily weighted to risk. There's simply no value in undermining a few submarines, that US allies are also buying and integrating US systems into. It makes little sense.




USA would benefit a lot as France is its direct competitor in arms market for western systems. It is not just few lousy submarines.

USA would benefit ,even if it has not leaked the information, as a major leak from inside DCNS would undermine French reputation, iff the leak is serious enough. Your point only give justification for why USA ITSELF would not sabotage Scorpene, not whether it would benefit from it or not.


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## Olaf One-Brow

A_Poster said:


> USA would benefit a lot as France is its direct competitor in arms market for western systems. It is not just few lousy submarines.



Not really. The two nations make a few competing items (exocet versus harpoon), but their markets are generally focused on different classes of system.

Let's look at DCNS' non energy products.

*Surface naval systems*

Multi-mission frigates: FREMM class frigates
Multi-mission frigates: Design of Second Generation Patrol Vessel for the Royal Malaysian Navy, based on the Gowind-class corvette
Air defence frigates: Horizon-class frigates
Medium-tonnage vessels: Gowind-class corvettes
Aircraft carriers: French aircraft carrier _Charles de Gaulle_
Helicopter carriers: _Mistral_-class LHD
Construction of aerial drones for the navy
*Submarines and underwater weapons*

Conventional submarines: the _Scorpène_ class
Nuclear submarines: device-launching nuclear submarines _Triomphant_ class and _Redoutable_ class
F21 heavy torpedoes
MU90 light torpedoes
Nothing really competes with US business does it? The US doesn't export submarines or Assault Ships/Carriers, its LCS is a different class of ship then FREMM and the frigate version is still years away. Patrol vessels maybe, but the Legend Class isn't yet for sale:







Torpedoes? Yeah, sure. But India is already a customer of US torpedoes including the MK54.






There's no real competition between the US or US companies and DCNS. So why undermine them?



A_Poster said:


> Your point only give justification for why USA ITSELF would not sabotage Scorpene, not whether it would benefit from it or not.



Uh yeah, that's the f*cking point. How could the US justify sabotage of the Scorpene if it did or did not benefit? Do you see how those two items go together?

This isn't about Rafale or any other French system they might be selling to India, it's about Scropene class submarines, which I might add US allies like Australia are using and modifying with US fire control systems. If the US sabotaged these submarines and lessened confidence in DCNS it would actually harm US business... which isn't exactly what the US wants.

So India loses Scorpene and picks Soryu instead? Or Kilo? How about Type 216? Would either of these compete with US business? Not really because the US doesn't export submarines and if confidence is diminished in DCNS, Australia could still buy Soryu and put US systems in it and India could buy it too and still not do that.

So what does the US gain or lose? Nothing. No matter the system, even Russian Kilos the situation would remain virtually the same.

France and the US compete in some areas, but sabatoging submarines is NOT going to improve US business.

This scenario doesn't make sense when you start looking into it.

Damn. I need more tinfoil.






...

It's late, I've got work in the morning. We can continue this if you'd like then, but please think about this first.

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## proud_indian

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/768111621394747392

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## Abingdonboy

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> For a moment if say China does obtain details about its diesel engines , or some special design features , will it affect Scorpenes here ?


It depends on the nature of the information "leaked" no one outside of a few in Australia, France and India really know about this so it's impossible to say.



Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> On our side a comprehensive audit about capabilities after the leak should be carried out by Navy , and a investigation by MoD.


No doubt the MoD will conduct their own investigation but if the leak came from France there is little the MoD can do except work with France to see how far the IN's assets have been comprimised (if at all).

In an extreme case the MoD may seek to take punitive action against DCNS as there was no dout a clause within the contract that all sides must prevent the flow of such information outside of agreed parties.



proud_indian said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/768111621394747392



It's weird that the Australian seems to be the only media outlet with this info. Normally it would be the NYT, Le Mond, The Guardian etc.

I hope France responds swiftly and sternly @Vergennes @BON PLAN @Picdelamirand-oil @Taygibay , they stand to lose A LOT here- not just billions of revenue but reputation/credibility. A case will be made by rivals in the future that France cannot be trusted with sensitive/classified strategic projects.

+ it's interesting that no one has thought to mention the Brazilians, Chileans or Malaysians yet (Scorpene operators also), the entire spotlight/target is France/Australia/India.

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## proud_indian

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To RAJ: LoLz! That’s another piece of classic yellow journalism. For, the Scorpene has never served in the warm waters of the IOR & therefore there exists no database of the recorded operating parameters of the Scorpene while operating in such waters. Therefore, at bet what may have leaked out are the standard specs which are not secret by any stretch of imagination. The actual operating parameters will become available only after the first-of-type Scorpene enters service with the IN & logs in 18 months of service.

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## Abingdonboy

proud_indian said:


> Prasun K. Sengupta said...
> 
> To RAJ: LoLz! That’s another piece of classic yellow journalism. For, the Scorpene has never served in the warm waters of the IOR & therefore there exists no database of the recorded operating parameters of the Scorpene while operating in such waters. Therefore, at bet what may have leaked out are the standard specs which are not secret by any stretch of imagination. The actual operating parameters will become available only after the first-of-type Scorpene enters service with the IN & logs in 18 months of service.


PKS is partially correct but he is focusing only on operating parameters. We do not yet know the extent of the "leak" but if it is 24,000 pages long then there is scope for many technical secrets having been at the very least comprimised and these would be present for any Scorpene operator, regardless of area of operation.

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## Nilgiri

proud_indian said:


> Prasun K. Sengupta said...
> 
> To RAJ: LoLz! That’s another piece of classic yellow journalism. For, the Scorpene has never served in the warm waters of the IOR & therefore there exists no database of the recorded operating parameters of the Scorpene while operating in such waters. Therefore, at bet what may have leaked out are the standard specs which are not secret by any stretch of imagination. The actual operating parameters will become available only after the first-of-type Scorpene enters service with the IN & logs in 18 months of service.



There is also the issue that after reviewing anything that may be somewhat sensitive with a broad latitude (and I'm talking broad here).....DCNS may have various options to retrofit systems so the parameters change enough if any are important enough and merit doing so.....may even do it for cheap/free if the leak is proven to be mostly DCNS based.

Of course doesn't apply to core technologies which we will have to see (from the actions taken down the road by all parties involved).

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## Abingdonboy

The leak doesn't appear to have come from India so let's tone it down bro, save this rant for another day. No nation is immune from this sort of thing.

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## Hellfire

proud_indian said:


> Prasun K. Sengupta said...
> 
> To RAJ: LoLz! That’s another piece of classic yellow journalism. For, the Scorpene has never served in the warm waters of the IOR & therefore there exists no database of the recorded operating parameters of the Scorpene while operating in such waters. Therefore, at bet what may have leaked out are the standard specs which are not secret by any stretch of imagination. The actual operating parameters will become available only after the first-of-type Scorpene enters service with the IN & logs in 18 months of service.




Rightly said, all parameters are available for the general population or people like @PARIKRAMA, who are excellent in collating and presenting data available on open sources for educating people like us with a well thought out critical analysis.

It is the tactics, the SOP and the ultimate deployment parameters that evolve unique to the op planning and ORBAT as country specific that need to be guarded.

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## Abingdonboy

Nilgiri said:


> There is also the issue that after reviewing anything that may be somewhat sensitive with a broad latitude (and I'm talking broad here).....DCNS may have various options to retrofit systems so the parameters change enough if any are important enough and merit doing so.....may even do it for cheap/free if the leak is proven to be mostly DCNS based.
> 
> Of course doesn't apply to core technologies which we will have to see (from the actions taken down the road by all parties involved).


It will take some time to conduct a damage report first and then corrective measures will be taken (if needed). If the leak came from DCNS then I have no doubt they will foot the bill and would do so happily.

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## Abingdonboy

hellfire said:


> It is the tactics, the SOP and the ultimate deployment parameters that evolve unique to the op planning and ORBAT as country specific that need to be guarded.


It's not as simple as that brother.

Technical and operational information are entirely different subjects, either of them being comprimised is a HUGE issue. How you employ something doesn't change what it actually is and if the enemy know the strengths (and more importantly weaknesses) of that particular asset then no matter what your SOPs or tactics you are fundamentally disadvatadged.

Again, there is no way of knowing if anything truly classified has been lost but let's not downplay the seriousness of what _the Australian_ is claiming.

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## Oldman1

A_Poster said:


> Even if USA has not leaked this, they/you still stand to gain most from undermining ofFrench reputation, iff leak is substantial and from inside DCNS.
> 
> Your counterpoints only pertain to why USA would not leak the information.



Thats just dumb. Don't blame on the U.S. for this leak. We have not much to gain on this. Especially when other countries like China could apply some of the technology that could make their submarines dangerous with French or other foreign tech being used in this submarine.

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## A_Poster

Oldman1 said:


> Thats just dumb. Don't blame on the U.S. for this leak. We have not much to gain on this. Especially when other countries like China could apply some of the technology that could make their submarines dangerous with French or other foreign tech being used in this submarine.



There is nothing dumb in what I stated.

I did not insinuate that USA had leaked the data. What I did was to make a conjecture that USA (its MIC) stands to gain most from this leak, irrespective of whether USA has a hand in this leak or not.


----------



## Roybot

proud_indian said:


> Prasun K. Sengupta said...
> 
> To RAJ: LoLz! That’s another piece of classic yellow journalism.* For, the Scorpene has never served in the warm waters of the IOR & therefore there exists no database of the recorded operating parameters of the Scorpene while operating in such waters.* Therefore, at bet what may have leaked out are the standard specs which are not secret by any stretch of imagination. The actual operating parameters will become available only after the first-of-type Scorpene enters service with the IN & logs in 18 months of service.



I wonder in what water do the Malaysian Scorpenes operate in then! We should stop trying to downplay this issue.



Vergennes said:


> @Nilgiri
> 
> 
> The highest authorities are investigating the case,but it seems like the datas were taken out of France in 2011 by a former Navy officer,that was back then a contractor for DCNS. The documents could have landed in some south east asia companies' hands before landing in Australia... So,everyone is implying that it's the indians that leaked all of this. @Blue Marlin
> 
> Investigations will tell everything.



Who is implying that the Indians leaked all this? Except for the French of course!

It was stolen by a former French Navy Officer, contractor for DCNS a French company and documents landed in some "South east Asian" companies' hand. Where did you get India from all this?

In case you didn't know, India is not a South East Asian country! South East Asian country would be your Malaysia, Indonesia, Thailand, Singapore! Now who operates Scorpene in that region? Malaysia! And who feels threatened by Malaysia in that particular region?

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## Nike

PARIKRAMA said:


> If only people know whats written really
> *
> First the article*
> ++++
> *Our French submarine builder in massive leak scandal*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Indian Navy’s first Scorpene submarine in Mumbai last year.
> 
> 
> The Australian
> 12:00AM August 24, 2016
> *CAMERON STEWART*
> 
> 
> 
> Associate Editor
> Melbourne
> @camstewarttheoz
> The French company that won the bid to design Australia’s new $50 billion submarine fleet has suffered a massive leak of secret documents, raising fears about the future security of top-secret data on the navy’s future fleet.
> 
> The stunning leak, which runs to 22,400 pages and has been seen by _The Australian_, details the entire secret combat capability of the six Scorpene-class submarines that French shipbuilder DCNS has designed for the Indian Navy.
> 
> A variant of the same French-designed Scorpene is also used by the navies of Malaysia, Chile and, from 2018, Brazil, so news of the Edward Snowden-sized leak — revealed today — will trigger alarm at the highest level in these countries. Marked “Restricted Scorpene India”, the DCNS documents detail the most sensitive combat capabilities of India’s new $US3 bn ($3.9bn) submarine fleet and would provide an intelligence bonanza if obtained by India’s strategic rivals, such as Pakistan or China.
> 
> The leak will spark grave concern in Australia and especially in the US where senior navy officials have privately expressed fears about the security of top-secret data entrusted to France.
> 
> In April DCNS, which is two-thirds owned by the French government, won the hotly contested bid over Germany and Japan to design 12 new submarines for Australia. Its proposed submarine for Australia — the yet-to-be-built Shortfin Barracuda — was chosen ahead of its rivals because it was considered to be the quietest in the water, making it perfectly suited to intelligence-gathering operations against China and others in the region.
> 
> Any stealth advantage for the navy’s new submarines would be gravely compromised if data on its planned combat and performance capabilities was leaked in the same manner as the data from the Scorpene. The leaked DCNS data details the secret stealth capabilities of the six new Indian submarines, including what frequencies they gather intelligence at, what levels of noise they make at various speeds and their diving depths, range and endurance — all sensitive information that is highly classified. The data tells the submarine crew where on the boat they can speak safely to avoid detection by the enemy. It also discloses magnetic, electromagnetic and infra-red data as well as the specifications of the submarine’s torpedo launch system and the combat system.
> 
> It details the speed and conditions needed for using the periscope, the noise specifications of the propeller and the radiated noise levels that occur when the submarine surfaces.
> 
> The data seen by _The Australian _includes 4457 pages on the submarine’s underwater sensors, 4209 pages on its above-water sensors, 4301 pages on its combat management system, 493 pages on its torpedo launch system and specifications, 6841 pages on the sub’s communications system and 2138 on its navigation systems.
> 
> _The Australian_ has chosen to redact sensitive information from the documents.
> 
> Sea trials for the first of India’s six Scorpene submarines began in May. The project is running four years behind schedule.
> 
> The Indian Navy has boasted that its Scorpene submarines have superior stealth features, which give them a major advantage against other submarines.
> 
> The US will be alarmed by the leak of the DCNS data because Australia hopes to install an American combat system — with the latest US stealth technology — in the French Shortfin Barracuda.
> 
> If Washington does not feel confident that its “crown jewels’’ of stealth technology can be protected, it may decline to give Australia its state-of-the-art combat system.
> 
> DCNS yesterday sought to reassure Australians that the leak of the data on the Indian Scorpene submarine would not happen with its proposed submarine for Australia. The company also implied — but did not say directly — that the leak might have occurred at India’s end, rather than from France. “Uncontrolled technical data is not possible in the Australian arrangements,” the company said. “Multiple and independent controls exist within DCNS to prevent unauthorised access to data and all data movements are encrypted and recorded. In the case of India, where a DCNS design is built by a local company, DCNS is the provider and not the controller of technical data.
> 
> “In the case of Australia, and unlike India, DCNS is both the provider and in-country controller of technical data for the full chain of transmission and usage over the life of the submarines.”
> 
> *However, The Australian has been told that the data on the Scorpene was written in France for India in 2011 and is suspected of being removed from France in that same year by a former French Navy officer who was at that time a DCNS subcontractor.*
> 
> *The data is then believed to have been taken to a company in Southeast Asia, possibly to assist in a commercial venture for a regional navy.*
> 
> *It was subsequently passed by a third party to a second company in the region before being sent on a data disk by regular mail to a company in Australia. It is unclear how widely the data has been shared in Asia or whether it has been obtained by foreign intelligence agencies.*
> 
> *The data seen by The Australian also includes separate confidential DCNS files on plans to sell French frigates to Chile and the French sale of the Mistral-class amphibious assault ship carrier to Russia. These DCNS projects have no link to India, which adds weight to the probability that the data files were removed from DCNS in France.*
> 
> DCNS Australia this month signed a deed of agreement with the Defence Department, paving the way for talks over the contract which will guide the design phase of the new submarines. The government plans to build 12 submarines in Adelaide to replace the six-boat Collins-class fleet from the early 2030s. The Shortfin Barracuda will be a slightly shorter, conventionally powered version of France’s new fleet of Barracuda-class nuclear submarines.
> 
> *Restricted data*
> 
> The secret information the leaked documents reveal:
> 
> • The stealth capabilities of the six new Indian Scorpene submarines
> • The frequencies at which the subs gather intelligence
> • The levels of noise the subs make at various speeds
> • Diving depths, range and endurance
> • Magnetic, electromagnetic and infra-red data
> • Specifications of the submarine’s torpedo launch system and the combat system
> • Speed and conditions needed for using the periscope
> • Propeller’s noise specifications
> • Radiated noise levels when the submarine surfaces
> ++++
> 
> *Whats the data leaked really and whats the preview the newspaper gave out..*
> View attachment 328351
> 
> 
> thats the cover of 1st PDF it has attached to showcase reference
> 
> What do you expect technical manuals to have within? Of course technical side of how to operate and troubleshoot basic things..
> 
> Buy any electronic device even an apple iphone, wont you get technical manuals? yes a repair guy would have more detailed circuit board level stuff but that is for trouble shooting.. and Manuals dont have circuits.. its basically process of how to operate and what to do in case its a trouble/issue.. teh flowchart of steps really.. *not for building a sub with details of metallurgy or so called other technological stuff which can be replicated..*
> 
> the second pdf talks about acoustic noise under certain conditions (lol sea state 1 meaning super calm bright sunny weather with no problems) noise levels in different compartment. Smartass folks forget the sub testing is done to check acoustic noise seen within individual compartments during sea trials to see if build of the sub matches with the laid out details or not and thus acoustic noise is measured for each portion in different conditions. So if we measure X, will not be there a reference to check and say yes it conforms to the build quality as laid and contracted by DCNS with GOI.. These are called as guaranteed noise levels... anything beyond those levels and sub goes back to do more insulation and may not get quality certification iuf consistently it breaches those guaranteed stuff for anything and everything..
> 
> the third part and biggest chunk, comprising of 2342 pages and are actually documentation manual of the parts and training documents.
> 
> In simple words, if i get documentation manuals, technical manuals and training manuals can i build scorpene sub? Can i reverse engineer it? Can i compromise, cripple and make scorpene sub useless?
> 
> Its height of stupidity really.. yes someone leaked but again its not really the core critical stuff.. We must plug the leak source but The Australian is using the vested interest angle to rub DCNS in a wrong way.. The way it is, its clear they dont want DCNS to ink the contract of SEA1000. Perhaps this might turn out to be a case of yellow journalism with intentional espionage and leakage by Rivals of DCNS.
> 
> *As far as India is concerned, these manuals are written in 2010-2011.. Kalavari is on sea trials now.. You know even for LCA tejas there will be 5000 pages of technical manuals.. its for pilots training, for basic repair crew etc.. same its for sailors and crew.. Nothing so sensitive is shared in manuals in the first place.. mostly the doc set of captain may have sensitive some frequencies for communication but that is never going to be shared with normal manuals nor codes for torpedo launch or sensitive Battle Management system codes etc..
> 
> This is a clear case of poor attempt to drag a company to score brownie points (Anti Turnbull group) and use DCNS and India names to glorify the case and grab eyeballs.. Thats my assessment after going through the prelim data ..*
> 
> Tagging the whole world.. its time such news items are given the right place.. sensationalism at its best..
> 
> @Abingdonboy @anant_s @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @Vergennes @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @MilSpec @Koovie @Echo_419 @Dash @hellfire @ito @SR-91 @AMCA @DesiGuy1403 @ranjeet @hellfire @fsayed @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Sergi @Water Car Engineer @dadeechi @kurup @Rain Man @kaykay @Joe Shearer @Tshering22 @Dandpatta @danger007 @Didact @Soumitra @SrNair @TejasMk3@jbgt90 @ranjeet @4GTejasBVR @The_Showstopper @guest11 @egodoc222 @Nilgiri @SarthakGanguly @Omega007 @GURU DUTT @HariPrasad @JanjaWeed @litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular @Spectre@litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular@Ryuzaki @CorporateAffairs @GR!FF!N @migflug @Levina@SvenSvensonov @-xXx- @Perpendicular @proud_indian @Mustang06 @Param @Local_Legend @Ali Zadi @hellfire @egodoc222 @CorporateAffairs @Major Shaitan Singh @jha @SmilingBuddha @#hydra# @danish_vij @[Bregs] @Skillrex @Hephaestus @SR-91 @Techy @litefire @R!CK @zebra7 @dev_moh @DesiGuy1403 @itachii @nik141993 @Marxist @Glorino @noksss @jbgt90 @Skull and Bones @Kraitcorp @Crixus @waz @WAJsal @Oscar @Blue Marlin @jhungary @AugenBlick @Star Wars @GuardianRED @arp2041 @Aero @Penguin @others



the data goes to Indonesian shipbuilder PT Pal, as part of DCNS efforts to win the next tender of Indonesian subs programme

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## Gregor Clegane

Indian Navy spokesperson rejects any leak of sensitive information of Scorpene submarines.
Saying that the data which was leaked is basically what DCNS supplied to all countries to which it offered to sell Scorpene's.
It is somewhat of an equivalent to a brochure for military products.
-IANS

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## Nilgiri

Gregor Clegane said:


> Indian Navy spokesperson rejects any leak of sensitive information of Scorpene submarines.
> Saying that the data which was leaked is basically what DCNS supplied to all countries to which it offered to sell Scorpene's.
> It is somewhat of an equivalent to a brochure for military products.
> -IANS



If this is true, my initial suspicions are correct

@PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @Vergennes 

Though it could be a temporary coverup for the time being to provide smokescreen for the detailed investigation of the breech and what it exactly involved.

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## bloo

*French sub data leak 'no bearing' on Aust*
AAP on August 24, 2016, 10:06 am




A leak of secret documents has no bearing on a French build of Australia's new submarine fleet.
 SHARE  TWEET EMAIL 
A leak of secret documents has no bearing on a French build of Australia's new $50 billion submarine fleet, the federal government insists.

Nevertheless, Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull says any leak of classified information a concern.

The leaked documents, seen by The Australian, run to 22,400 pages and detail the secret combat capability of six Scorpene-class submarines French shipbuilder DCNS designed for the Indian Navy.

In April, DCNS won a hotly-contested tender over Germany and Japan to design 12 new submarines for Australia.

The Shortfin Barracuda was chosen because of its quietness, which is suited to water-based intelligence-gathering operations.

The leak raises concerns that information about the submarines, and the latest US stealth technology, might not be secure.

*"The submarine that they are building for India is not submarine they are building for Australia. It is a completely different submarine," Mr Turnbull told the Seven Network on Wednesday.*

Defence has told the government the reported leak had no bearing Australia's submarine program.

"The Future Submarine Program operates under stringent security requirements,," Defence Industry Minister Christopher Pyne said in a statement.

"The same requirements apply to the protection of all sensitive information and technical data for the Collins class submarines, and have operated successfully for decades."

Mr Turnbull said the leak was a reminder of the critical importance of cyber security in the modern digital world.

DCNS told News Corp "uncontrolled technical data is not possible in the Australian arrangements". It implied - but did not confirm - the leak was on the Indian side.

But The Australian said it'd been told the Scorpene data was suspected of being removed from France in 2011 by a former French Navy officer who was a DCNS subcontractor.

South Australian senator Nick Xenophon intends to pursue the the matter when parliament returns next week.

"This is really quite disastrous," he told ABC radio.


https://au.news.yahoo.com/a/32423489/french-sub-builder-data-leak-of-concern/?cmp=st#page1


*So what does that mean?
Are the Austrailans getting the better ones or are we?*

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## Gregor Clegane

@bloo
Australians are basically getting the Merlin class variant, which is what French offered India for P-75i

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## cerberus

bloo said:


> *French sub data leak 'no bearing' on Aust*
> AAP on August 24, 2016, 10:06 am
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A leak of secret documents has no bearing on a French build of Australia's new submarine fleet.
> SHARE  TWEET EMAIL
> A leak of secret documents has no bearing on a French build of Australia's new $50 billion submarine fleet, the federal government insists.
> 
> Nevertheless, Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull says any leak of classified information a concern.
> 
> The leaked documents, seen by The Australian, run to 22,400 pages and detail the secret combat capability of six Scorpene-class submarines French shipbuilder DCNS designed for the Indian Navy.
> 
> In April, DCNS won a hotly-contested tender over Germany and Japan to design 12 new submarines for Australia.
> 
> The Shortfin Barracuda was chosen because of its quietness, which is suited to water-based intelligence-gathering operations.
> 
> The leak raises concerns that information about the submarines, and the latest US stealth technology, might not be secure.
> 
> *"The submarine that they are building for India is not submarine they are building for Australia. It is a completely different submarine," Mr Turnbull told the Seven Network on Wednesday.*
> 
> Defence has told the government the reported leak had no bearing Australia's submarine program.
> 
> "The Future Submarine Program operates under stringent security requirements,," Defence Industry Minister Christopher Pyne said in a statement.
> 
> "The same requirements apply to the protection of all sensitive information and technical data for the Collins class submarines, and have operated successfully for decades."
> 
> Mr Turnbull said the leak was a reminder of the critical importance of cyber security in the modern digital world.
> 
> DCNS told News Corp "uncontrolled technical data is not possible in the Australian arrangements". It implied - but did not confirm - the leak was on the Indian side.
> 
> But The Australian said it'd been told the Scorpene data was suspected of being removed from France in 2011 by a former French Navy officer who was a DCNS subcontractor.
> 
> South Australian senator Nick Xenophon intends to pursue the the matter when parliament returns next week.
> 
> "This is really quite disastrous," he told ABC radio.
> 
> 
> https://au.news.yahoo.com/a/32423489/french-sub-builder-data-leak-of-concern/?cmp=st#page1
> 
> 
> *So what does that mean?
> Are the Austrailans getting the better ones or are we?*


Paying 50 billion $ what you expected

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## MastanKhan

PARIKRAMA said:


> If only people know whats written really
> *
> First the article*
> ++++
> *Our French submarine builder in massive leak scandal*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Indian Navy’s first Scorpene submarine in Mumbai last year.
> 
> 
> The Australian
> 12:00AM August 24, 2016
> *CAMERON STEWART*
> 
> 
> 
> Associate Editor
> Melbourne
> @camstewarttheoz
> The French company that won the bid to design Australia’s new $50 billion submarine fleet has suffered a massive leak of secret documents, raising fears about the future security of top-secret data on the navy’s future fleet.
> 
> The stunning leak, which runs to 22,400 pages and has been seen by _The Australian_, details the entire secret combat capability of the six Scorpene-class submarines that French shipbuilder DCNS has designed for the Indian Navy.
> 
> A variant of the same French-designed Scorpene is also used by the navies of Malaysia, Chile and, from 2018, Brazil, so news of the Edward Snowden-sized leak — revealed today — will trigger alarm at the highest level in these countries. Marked “Restricted Scorpene India”, the DCNS documents detail the most sensitive combat capabilities of India’s new $US3 bn ($3.9bn) submarine fleet and would provide an intelligence bonanza if obtained by India’s strategic rivals, such as Pakistan or China.
> 
> The leak will spark grave concern in Australia and especially in the US where senior navy officials have privately expressed fears about the security of top-secret data entrusted to France.
> 
> In April DCNS, which is two-thirds owned by the French government, won the hotly contested bid over Germany and Japan to design 12 new submarines for Australia. Its proposed submarine for Australia — the yet-to-be-built Shortfin Barracuda — was chosen ahead of its rivals because it was considered to be the quietest in the water, making it perfectly suited to intelligence-gathering operations against China and others in the region.
> 
> Any stealth advantage for the navy’s new submarines would be gravely compromised if data on its planned combat and performance capabilities was leaked in the same manner as the data from the Scorpene. The leaked DCNS data details the secret stealth capabilities of the six new Indian submarines, including what frequencies they gather intelligence at, what levels of noise they make at various speeds and their diving depths, range and endurance — all sensitive information that is highly classified. The data tells the submarine crew where on the boat they can speak safely to avoid detection by the enemy. It also discloses magnetic, electromagnetic and infra-red data as well as the specifications of the submarine’s torpedo launch system and the combat system.
> 
> It details the speed and conditions needed for using the periscope, the noise specifications of the propeller and the radiated noise levels that occur when the submarine surfaces.
> 
> The data seen by _The Australian _includes 4457 pages on the submarine’s underwater sensors, 4209 pages on its above-water sensors, 4301 pages on its combat management system, 493 pages on its torpedo launch system and specifications, 6841 pages on the sub’s communications system and 2138 on its navigation systems.
> 
> _The Australian_ has chosen to redact sensitive information from the documents.
> 
> Sea trials for the first of India’s six Scorpene submarines began in May. The project is running four years behind schedule.
> 
> The Indian Navy has boasted that its Scorpene submarines have superior stealth features, which give them a major advantage against other submarines.
> 
> The US will be alarmed by the leak of the DCNS data because Australia hopes to install an American combat system — with the latest US stealth technology — in the French Shortfin Barracuda.
> 
> If Washington does not feel confident that its “crown jewels’’ of stealth technology can be protected, it may decline to give Australia its state-of-the-art combat system.
> 
> DCNS yesterday sought to reassure Australians that the leak of the data on the Indian Scorpene submarine would not happen with its proposed submarine for Australia. The company also implied — but did not say directly — that the leak might have occurred at India’s end, rather than from France. “Uncontrolled technical data is not possible in the Australian arrangements,” the company said. “Multiple and independent controls exist within DCNS to prevent unauthorised access to data and all data movements are encrypted and recorded. In the case of India, where a DCNS design is built by a local company, DCNS is the provider and not the controller of technical data.
> 
> “In the case of Australia, and unlike India, DCNS is both the provider and in-country controller of technical data for the full chain of transmission and usage over the life of the submarines.”
> 
> *However, The Australian has been told that the data on the Scorpene was written in France for India in 2011 and is suspected of being removed from France in that same year by a former French Navy officer who was at that time a DCNS subcontractor.*
> 
> *The data is then believed to have been taken to a company in Southeast Asia, possibly to assist in a commercial venture for a regional navy.*
> 
> *It was subsequently passed by a third party to a second company in the region before being sent on a data disk by regular mail to a company in Australia. It is unclear how widely the data has been shared in Asia or whether it has been obtained by foreign intelligence agencies.*
> 
> *The data seen by The Australian also includes separate confidential DCNS files on plans to sell French frigates to Chile and the French sale of the Mistral-class amphibious assault ship carrier to Russia. These DCNS projects have no link to India, which adds weight to the probability that the data files were removed from DCNS in France.*
> 
> DCNS Australia this month signed a deed of agreement with the Defence Department, paving the way for talks over the contract which will guide the design phase of the new submarines. The government plans to build 12 submarines in Adelaide to replace the six-boat Collins-class fleet from the early 2030s. The Shortfin Barracuda will be a slightly shorter, conventionally powered version of France’s new fleet of Barracuda-class nuclear submarines.
> 
> *Restricted data*
> 
> The secret information the leaked documents reveal:
> 
> • The stealth capabilities of the six new Indian Scorpene submarines
> • The frequencies at which the subs gather intelligence
> • The levels of noise the subs make at various speeds
> • Diving depths, range and endurance
> • Magnetic, electromagnetic and infra-red data
> • Specifications of the submarine’s torpedo launch system and the combat system
> • Speed and conditions needed for using the periscope
> • Propeller’s noise specifications
> • Radiated noise levels when the submarine surfaces
> ++++
> 
> *Whats the data leaked really and whats the preview the newspaper gave out..*
> View attachment 328351
> 
> 
> thats the cover of 1st PDF it has attached to showcase reference
> 
> What do you expect technical manuals to have within? Of course technical side of how to operate and troubleshoot basic things..
> 
> Buy any electronic device even an apple iphone, wont you get technical manuals? yes a repair guy would have more detailed circuit board level stuff but that is for trouble shooting.. and Manuals dont have circuits.. its basically process of how to operate and what to do in case its a trouble/issue.. teh flowchart of steps really.. *not for building a sub with details of metallurgy or so called other technological stuff which can be replicated..*
> 
> the second pdf talks about acoustic noise under certain conditions (lol sea state 1 meaning super calm bright sunny weather with no problems) noise levels in different compartment. Smartass folks forget the sub testing is done to check acoustic noise seen within individual compartments during sea trials to see if build of the sub matches with the laid out details or not and thus acoustic noise is measured for each portion in different conditions. So if we measure X, will not be there a reference to check and say yes it conforms to the build quality as laid and contracted by DCNS with GOI.. These are called as guaranteed noise levels... anything beyond those levels and sub goes back to do more insulation and may not get quality certification iuf consistently it breaches those guaranteed stuff for anything and everything..
> 
> the third part and biggest chunk, comprising of 2342 pages and are actually documentation manual of the parts and training documents.
> 
> In simple words, if i get documentation manuals, technical manuals and training manuals can i build scorpene sub? Can i reverse engineer it? Can i compromise, cripple and make scorpene sub useless?
> 
> Its height of stupidity really.. yes someone leaked but again its not really the core critical stuff.. We must plug the leak source but The Australian is using the vested interest angle to rub DCNS in a wrong way.. The way it is, its clear they dont want DCNS to ink the contract of SEA1000. Perhaps this might turn out to be a case of yellow journalism with intentional espionage and leakage by Rivals of DCNS.
> 
> *As far as India is concerned, these manuals are written in 2010-2011.. Kalavari is on sea trials now.. You know even for LCA tejas there will be 5000 pages of technical manuals.. its for pilots training, for basic repair crew etc.. same its for sailors and crew.. Nothing so sensitive is shared in manuals in the first place.. mostly the doc set of captain may have sensitive some frequencies for communication but that is never going to be shared with normal manuals nor codes for torpedo launch or sensitive Battle Management system codes etc..
> 
> This is a clear case of poor attempt to drag a company to score brownie points (Anti Turnbull group) and use DCNS and India names to glorify the case and grab eyeballs.. Thats my assessment after going through the prelim data ..*
> 
> Tagging the whole world.. its time such news items are given the right place.. sensationalism at its best..
> 
> @Abingdonboy @anant_s @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @Vergennes @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @MilSpec @Koovie @Echo_419 @Dash @hellfire @ito @SR-91 @AMCA @DesiGuy1403 @ranjeet @hellfire @fsayed @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Sergi @Water Car Engineer @dadeechi @kurup @Rain Man @kaykay @Joe Shearer @Tshering22 @Dandpatta @danger007 @Didact @Soumitra @SrNair @TejasMk3@jbgt90 @ranjeet @4GTejasBVR @The_Showstopper @guest11 @egodoc222 @Nilgiri @SarthakGanguly @Omega007 @GURU DUTT @HariPrasad @JanjaWeed @litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular @Spectre@litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular@Ryuzaki @CorporateAffairs @GR!FF!N @migflug @Levina@SvenSvensonov @-xXx- @Perpendicular @proud_indian @Mustang06 @Param @Local_Legend @Ali Zadi @hellfire @egodoc222 @CorporateAffairs @Major Shaitan Singh @jha @SmilingBuddha @#hydra# @danish_vij @[Bregs] @Skillrex @Hephaestus @SR-91 @Techy @litefire @R!CK @zebra7 @dev_moh @DesiGuy1403 @itachii @nik141993 @Marxist @Glorino @noksss @jbgt90 @Skull and Bones @Kraitcorp @Crixus @waz @WAJsal @Oscar @Blue Marlin @jhungary @AugenBlick @Star Wars @GuardianRED @arp2041 @Aero @Penguin @others




Hi,
This article is a WHITE WASH---the information leaked is CRTICAL to the enemy---and worthless to the general public.

No such information of any sub has ever leaked out prior to this---.

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## cerberus

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> This article is a WHITE WASH---the information leaked is CRTICAL to the enemy---and worthless to the general public.
> 
> No such information of any sub has ever leaked out prior to this---.


No it's not
For example there many things which are technically wrong

Such frequency on which sub gather Intelligence it purely depends upon depth and variety operations it can be modified

As for noise details it also random and depend upon area of operations

These are common in cooperate espionage

As other information leaked it already happened many times during cold war days

Even last year sensitive data was leaked from Kremlin of Russia latest Nuclear submarine

But that couldn't stop the projects

http://www.globalresearch.ca/secret...-new-nuclear-submarine-weapons-system/5488692

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## Mukunda Murthi Rao

Documents detailing the secret combat capabilities of Scorpene-class submarines that French shipbuilder DCNS has designed for the Indian Navy have been leaked, and could prove to a bonanza for India’s rivals such as Pakistan, according to an Australian media report on Tuesday.

The leak, running to 22,400 pages, will trigger alarm at the highest level in countries that operate a variant of the Scorpene, or have ordered the submarine, including Malaysia, Chile and Brazil, The Australian newspaper reported.

India has ordered six Scorpene-class submarines in a deal worth $3 billion. The first of the submarines built at the Mazagon Docks in Mumbai began sea trials in May.

“Marked ‘Restricted Scorpene India’, the DCNS documents detail the most sensitive combat capabilities of India’s new $US3 bn…submarine fleet and would provide an intelligence bonanza if obtained by India’s strategic rivals, such as Pakistan or China,” the report said.

“The leak will spark grave concern in Australia and especially in the US, where senior navy officials have privately expressed fears about the security of top-secret data entrusted to France,” it added.

DCNS also won a bid in April to design Australia’s new $50 billion submarine fleet, and the report said the leak could affect the security of top-secret data on the submarines. DCNS, which is two-thirds owned by the French government, will design 12 new submarines for Australia.

Read | India inks $1-billion deal with US for 4 P-8I submarine hunter planes

“Any stealth advantage for the (Australian) navy’s new submarines would be gravely compromised if data on its planned combat and performance capabilities was leaked in the same manner as the data from the Scorpene,” the report said.

The leaked DCNS documents detail key secret stealth capabilities of the Indian submarines, including sensitive and highly classified information such as

* what frequencies the submarines gather intelligence at, what levels of noise they make at various speeds, as well as their diving depths, range and endurance

* where on the submarine the crew can speak safely to avoid detection by the enemy

* magnetic, electromagnetic and infra-red data, and the specifications of the submarine’s torpedo launch system and combat system

* the speed and conditions needed for using the periscope, noise specifications of the propeller and radiated noise levels that occur when the submarine surfaces.

The Australian reported it had seen 4,457 pages on the Scorpene’s underwater sensors, 4,209 pages on its above-water sensors, 4,301 pages on its combat management system, 493 pages on its torpedo launch system and specifications, 6,841 pages on the communications system and 2,138 on its navigation systems.

The newspaper redacted sensitive information from some documents it posted on its website.

Read | Making indigenous tech for submarines: Navy chief

The report said DCNS had sought to reassure Australians that the leak of data on the Indian submarine would not happen with its proposed submarine for Australia. “The company also implied — but did not say directly — that the leak might have occurred at India’s end, rather than from France,” it said.

“Multiple and independent controls exist within DCNS to prevent unauthorised access to data and all data movements are encrypted and recorded. In the case of India, where a DCNS design is built by a local company, DCNS is the provider and not the controller of technical data,” DCNS was quoted as saying by the daily.

“In the case of Australia, and unlike India, DCNS is both the provider and in-country controller of technical data for the full chain of transmission and usage over the life of the submarines.”

However, The Australian learnt that the data on the Scorpene was written in France for India in 2011 and is suspected of being removed from France in that same year by a former French Navy officer who was at that time a DCNS subcontractor. The data is then believed to have been taken to a company in Southeast Asia, possibly to assist in a commercial venture for a regional navy.

“It was subsequently passed by a third party to a second company in the region before being sent on a data disk by regular mail to a company in Australia. It is unclear how widely the data has been shared in Asia or whether it has been obtained by foreign intelligence agencies,” the report said.

http://m.hindustantimes.com/india-n...aked-report/story-PqS96Ob4G5tGY088F07tzH.html

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## SUDIP

If true it largely gonna effect the Scorpene program. The follow on order may be in risk now. If true it could dent the Indo-French partnership in submarine business in a big way. If all of the above will occur, then only a new GOV in France can make all these better again. But everywhere there is a big IF.

This shouldn't do any bad to the already precarious Rafael. I am worrying bcoz the way MOD is now dealing with the Rafael deal.
@PARIKRAMA what is your take ? Is it going to effect Rafael ? But one thing is getting factual day by day, that French are pretty much incompetent in dealing with Indian MOD.

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## Eminent Mainstream Media

madokafc said:


> the data goes to Indonesian shipbuilder PT Pal, as part of DCNS efforts to win the next tender of Indonesian subs programme



They can now say good bye to all tenders now- India was supposed to order 3 more of these subs- now I don't think Australia, Indonesia or any country will buy from them- 

It is cut throat competition and you have to be careful- can't blame the competitors for leaking-

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## SmilingBuddha



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## proud_indian

*'There's Been A Hacking:' Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar On Scorpene Leak*​All India | Edited by Shuchi Shukla (With inputs from Agencies) | Updated: August 24, 2016 11:09 IST






Manohar Parrikar has sought report on the leak of data on combat capability of Scorpene-class submarines​NEW DELHI: Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar has sought a report from the Indian Navy chief on the leak of thousands of pages of secret data on the combat capability of the Scorpene-class submarines being built in India in a 3.5-billion-dollar project.

*Here is your 10-point cheat-sheet to this story:*​ 

"What I understand is that there has been a hacking... the first important thing is to identify if it is related to us," the Defence Minister said after an Australian newspaper reported the leak.
Mr Parrikar said that he had learned about the leak at midnight yesterday, and that he expected details in a couple of days.
Newspaper The Australian has said it has accessed 22,400 leaked pages, marked "Restricted Scorpene India", of what is essentially the operating manual of the submarine, designed by French defence contractor DCNS for the Indian Navy.
The first of six submarines, the INS Kalvari, is now being built at Mumbai's Mazgaon Docks.
The submarines are considered some of the most advanced of their class in the world, so silent under water that they are extremely difficult, if not impossible to detect.
The classified data now out in the open includes thousands of pages on the submarine sensors and thousands more on its communication and navigation systems as well as nearly 500 pages on the torpedo launch system alone.
The Australian reports that DCNS has implied that the leak may have come from India, but the daily said the data was thought to have been removed from France in 2011 by a former French navy officer who at the time was a subcontractor for DCNS.
The data is believed to have passed through firms in Southeast Asia before eventually being mailed to a company in Australia, the newspaper said.
DCNS has said it has launched an inquiry which "will determine the precise nature of the documents which have been leaked, the potential damage to our customers as well as those responsible."
Variants of the submarine are used by Malaysia and Chile. Brazil is also due to deploy the vessels from 2018. Australia has awarded a submarine contract to DCNS, but the secret combat system for the 12 Shortfin Barracudas is being supplied by the United States
http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/ther...ter-manohar-parrikar-on-scorpene-leak-1449483.

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## Dash

Does anyone have the Aussie news data ?

@PARIKRAMA ?

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## PARIKRAMA

Look i wont quote much out here bcz of the nature of events surrounding French cooperation in India and what they are bringing to Indian side.. There is something more than what meets the eyes here..

First why people are sabotaging Scorpene Indian deal?

The reason lies with the fact that Mazgaon dock limited recently has been undergoing a small expansion which is not much noted in public eyes.
The expansion cost is approximately Rs 150 Crs
This expansion is basically a second assembly line comprising of building blocks and pre fabrication stage of submarines.
This was done for DCNS Subs only ..
This line is ready for last 6 months and senior MOD folks including DM MP is aware of it, infact have taken a first hand review visit
The chief feature is 5 scorpene submarines can be built in parallel in the second assembly line
In simple words here was the real catch, whether its P75 or P75 I, the second assembly line over 6-7 years can let us have 5 new DCNS submarines once ordered.
Talk about parallel production, bcz this way by 2025-26, an additional 5 submarines of DCNS comes online.
The DCNS submarines can be either Scorpene or Shortfin

Now the Second point why stopping DCNS from India

Chiefly due to cooperation level.
Outside the discussion in public domain, India wants DCNS to bring in Fuel Cell AIP technology for us.
Our new generation submarines are being planned with pump jet propulsion in order to change the course of our capabilities
This pump jet is also planned for our black project
DCNS is also involved in reactor shielding for both ship and sub project
The Shortfin technology was part of this mammoth understanding between the French and Indian government
This is the same reason torpedoes (F21) and its inherent derivative tech in varunastra will be seen
Obviously this kind of numbers, technology and most importantly capability in MIC

filters out the rivals - Amur or TKMS cant help us with this as investment of money, time and capability already made at G2G understanding level
The numbers of SSK fleet kind of takes care of coastal and shallow depth warfare aspect especially with Fuel Cell AIP providing us the endurance. Now thats not a good news for any side.
The pump jet, and acoustic reduction tech + other associated tech of Shortfin going into the black project is the game changer which our adversaries dont want. The timeline projected for these submarines to enter Indian service and capability of churning out numbers is a big worry for ppl for the second strike capability perspective.

This is an unprecedented conspiracy and a case of espionage to kill Indian Submarine program.

On Rafale, one must understand the broad contour of cooperation involves an Air-Sea-Land angle. Air is Rafale, Sea is Submarines, Land has a side too.. Cant disclose on that as of now but you would anyway hear soon about the land angle. In short there are companies involved in this G2G cooperation with big names like Dassault, Thales, DCNS, Safran, etc.

Since now MOD DM MP will chair an investigation and soon we will know the source of it.. But broadly stepping away from this will require a side to step up and offer such unprecedented cooperation.

If Russian wants to step in then it has to part Project 885 tech which they dont want anyways..
If TKMS wants, its not MAD ability bcz its not fool proof and that has been demonstrated..
USA cant get anything anyways as there are no subs nor any tech they are sharing..
So as you prune through options you will realise whats this whole story and why it has been done..

@Abingdonboy @Nilgiri @Vergennes @Olaf One-Brow @cerberus @SUDIP @Spectre @Ankit Kumar 002 @proud_indian @MilSpec

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## Malik Usman

That's awesome..........and its not first time..........after every few months some leaks is coming in India or their security personal disappearing to other countries with their families..................."Pessa Phaink or Tamasha Deek"


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## GuardianRED

PARIKRAMA said:


> Look i wont quote much out here bcz of the nature of events surrounding French cooperation in India and what they are bringing to Indian side.. There is something more than what meets the eyes here..
> 
> First why people are sabotaging Scorpene Indian deal?
> 
> The reason lies with the fact that Mazgaon dock limited recently has been undergoing a small expansion which is not much noted in public eyes.
> The expansion cost is approximately Rs 150 Crs
> This expansion is basically a second assembly line comprising of building blocks and pre fabrication stage of submarines.
> This was done for DCNS Subs only ..
> This line is ready for last 6 months and senior MOD folks including DM MP is aware of it, infact have taken a first hand review visit
> The chief feature is 5 scorpene submarines can be built in parallel in the second assembly line
> In simple words here was the real catch, whether its P75 or P75 I, the second assembly line over 6-7 years can let us have 5 new DCNS submarines once ordered.
> Talk about parallel production, bcz this way by 2025-26, an additional 5 submarines of DCNS comes online.
> The DCNS submarines can be either Scorpene or Shortfin
> 
> Now the Second point why stopping DCNS from India
> 
> Chiefly due to cooperation level.
> Outside the discussion in public domain, India wants DCNS to bring in Fuel Cell AIP technology for us.
> Our new generation submarines are being planned with pump jet propulsion in order to change the course of our capabilities
> This pump jet is also planned for our black project
> DCNS is also involved in reactor shielding for both ship and sub project
> The Shortfin technology was part of this mammoth understanding between the French and Indian government
> This is the same reason torpedoes (F21) and its inherent derivative tech in varunastra will be seen
> Obviously this kind of numbers, technology and most importantly capability in MIC
> 
> filters out the rivals - Amur or TKMS cant help us with this as investment of money, time and capability already made at G2G understanding level
> The numbers of SSK fleet kind of takes care of coastal and shallow depth warfare aspect especially with Fuel Cell AIP providing us the endurance. Now thats not a good news for any side.
> The pump jet, and acoustic reduction tech + other associated tech of Shortfin going into the black project is the game changer which our adversaries dont want. The timeline projected for these submarines to enter Indian service and capability of churning out numbers is a big worry for ppl for the second strike capability perspective.
> 
> This is an unprecedented conspiracy and a case of espionage to kill Indian Submarine program.
> 
> On Rafale, one must understand the broad contour of cooperation involves an Air-Sea-Land angle. Air is Rafale, Sea is Submarines, Land has a side too.. Cant disclose on that as of now but you would anyway hear soon about the land angle. In short there are companies involved in this G2G cooperation with big names like Dassault, Thales, DCNS, Safran, etc.
> 
> Since now MOD DM MP will chair an investigation and soon we will know the source of it.. But broadly stepping away from this will require a side to step up and offer such unprecedented cooperation.
> 
> If Russian wants to step in then it has to part Project 885 tech which they dont want anyways..
> If TKMS wants, its not MAD ability bcz its not fool proof and that has been demonstrated..
> USA cant get anything anyways as there are no subs nor any tech they are sharing..
> So as you prune through options you will realise whats this whole story and why it has been done..
> 
> @Abingdonboy @Nilgiri @Vergennes @Olaf One-Brow @cerberus @SUDIP @Spectre @Ankit Kumar 002 @proud_indian @MilSpec


So this leak is done in such a way as to hope the DM does an Anthony and cancel the contract (or any dealings with DCS) BUT in reality the DM is alot smarter and understand the consequence (hara kiri) and future importance to the MIC and possible (like u mention) to use this as leverage.

Q: Is this leak targeted at the AUS sub deal and the Indian Subs happened to be in the Blast area or is it the other way round? If the Latter why send the leaked data to an Aussie Newspaper?

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## Shankranthi

A_Poster said:


> If leak is substantial, you could rule out China. If they had got their hand on some secrets, they would have kept their mouth shut.
> 
> Biggest gainer from this (if leak is substantial) would be Russia and USA in that order.



The leak IS substantial. Its unprecedented. I cannot remember the last time when there was a leak of such magnitude and impact. 

At this stage everybody's a suspect. Everybody has varying degree of motive. However at this stage its not important to find out who did it. The important thing for India is how to deal with it. 

For France the important thing is to find out "who" did it. But that is not my immediate concern (as an Indian).

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## Spectre

_PTI_ reports that leaked document covers a variety of details including the secret stealth capabilities of six new Indian submarines — including but not restricted to the

1. *Frequencies at which they gather intelligence at, what noise they make at various speeds and their diving depths, range and endurance. *

2. Safe zones on board the submarine where crew members can safely speak without fear of detection by the enemy.

3. Vessel's underwater sensors (4,457), its above-water sensors (4,209),

4. Combat management system (4,301),

5. Navigation systems (2,138),

6. Communications system (6,841)

7. Torpedo launch system.


@Olaf One-Brow @PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @Nilgiri seems like more than manuals to me.

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## Shankranthi

proud_indian said:


> Prasun K. Sengupta said...
> 
> To RAJ: LoLz! That’s another piece of classic yellow journalism. For, the Scorpene has never served in the warm waters of the IOR & therefore there exists no database of the recorded operating parameters of the Scorpene while operating in such waters. Therefore, at bet what may have leaked out are the standard specs which are not secret by any stretch of imagination. The actual operating parameters will become available only after the first-of-type Scorpene enters service with the IN & logs in 18 months of service.



User Manuals provide the Max-Min limits of equipment employed. It will provide the maximum operating depth, Max-min speed, electronic signature, heat signature, acrostic signature, speed of torpedo launching, size of torpedo, range of torpedo, range of sensor, frequencies of sensors, signal to noise ratios, sensitivity of sensors, range of communication equipment's, Signal modulation details, modes for various operations, standards used in equipment's, etc. etc. 

During operations the commander /captain makes operational decisions based on these parameters. However once these details are know, the enemy can extrapolate the tactics the submarine will use and then formulate strategies to effectively neutralise them. Both actively and passively. 

The enemy can work out how to engage with scorpene, at what range, depth, with what tools. Equipment specifications are not a joke and are most certainly kept a secret. We are not talking about details mentioned in marketing brochures, but about details provided to the captain of the vessel to help him operational the submarine. 

Its idiotic to think IN will be fine with this. Its a different thing they will smile and put their chin up and say its a minor leak. No one really expects them to say the shit has hit the ceiling. After all "all" leaks are minor for public consumption.

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## cerberus

Spectre said:


> _PTI_ reports that leaked document covers a variety of details including the secret stealth capabilities of six new Indian submarines — including but not restricted to the
> 
> 1. *Frequencies at which they gather intelligence at, what noise they make at various speeds and their diving depths, range and endurance. *
> 
> 2. Safe zones on board the submarine where crew members can safely speak without fear of detection by the enemy.
> 
> 3. Vessel's underwater sensors (4,457), its above-water sensors (4,209),
> 
> 4. Combat management system (4,301),
> 
> 5. Navigation systems (2,138),
> 
> 6. Communications system (6,841)
> 
> 7. Torpedo launch system.
> 
> 
> @Olaf One-Brow @PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @Nilgiri seems like more than manuals to me.


Not much of leak it can be modified and corrected by measures technically 

Never the less it more or like looks similar to me how can you can asses subs performance based on data written on 2011 

Similar leak was done in Kremlin but the project is still on and going great

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## Blue Marlin

Olaf One-Brow said:


> I'm not sure what the US would have to gain as it tries to court India, in fact, it'd lose more if India determined the US was behind this incident, like future contracts or consideration, cooperation agreements and diplomatic potential, which is vital as the US tries to keep a certain nation in check, for which India's assistance is very welcomed.
> 
> We aren't so desperate for contracts that we'd sabotage a minor deal, for six submarines, just to get a few contracts for systems put into Japanese exported boats, assuming India would even want US systems like Norway does with their Ula replacement or Australia does with their Collins replacement.
> 
> If the goal was to boost Japan's export industry and get them a major contract, well that goes again US wishes to expand our own defense industry, so we'd be shooting ourselves in the knee.
> 
> The US would lose a lot more then if could potentially gain, as the gains aren't even significant. It's not like we aren't interested in their capabilities though, we just wouldn't go around plastering them on the internet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe Russia trying to sabotage India's tender and drum up some business for Kilo or Lada or the developmental Kalina class, but again, they'd have much to lose if their fingers are found on the leak.
> 
> Now has anyone seen my hat?


they wont leak it because of India they would do it because of the Aussies. even you should know they wanted japan to choose the Japanese sub over the others. the usa does not care as which sub is chosen will get a suite from the USA anyway.
the russains are not capable of such a task. they would offer a stretched variant of the amur with brahmos vls.

nice hat, 
have you seen mine.

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## New Resolve

If Rafale deal is delayed any longer, the french might even hand over a scorpene to pakistan for inspection.


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## Shankranthi

Spectre said:


> _PTI_ reports that leaked document covers a variety of details including the secret stealth capabilities of six new Indian submarines — including but not restricted to the
> 
> 1. *Frequencies at which they gather intelligence at, what noise they make at various speeds and their diving depths, range and endurance. *
> 
> 2. Safe zones on board the submarine where crew members can safely speak without fear of detection by the enemy.
> 
> 3. Vessel's underwater sensors (4,457), its above-water sensors (4,209),
> 
> 4. Combat management system (4,301),
> 
> 5. Navigation systems (2,138),
> 
> 6. Communications system (6,841)
> 
> 7. Torpedo launch system.
> 
> 
> @Olaf One-Brow @PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @Nilgiri seems like more than manuals to me.



I see that you posted this before me. But these things are usually mentioned in the user manuals.

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## jha

This is bad. For everyone involved. IN will think twice before going for more Scorpenes. It calls for a deep investigation.

And this is no leak of manuals. Who knows what else has been leaked ? Just this newspaper has more than 22.4 K pages. How can we be sure that the hacker did not steal more data ?

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## Dash

OK let's just wait. But my understanding was that each sub has unique signatures that can only be knon "after" the sub comes out of sea trials ?

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## cerberus

Shankranthi said:


> User Manuals provide the Max-Min limits of equipment employed. It will provide the maximum operating depth, Max-min speed, electronic signature, heat signature, acrostic signature, speed of torpedo launching, size of torpedo, range of torpedo, range of sensor, frequencies of sensors, signal to noise ratios, sensitivity of sensors, range of communication equipment's, Signal modulation details, modes for various operations, standards used in equipment's, etc. etc.
> 
> During operations the commander /captain makes operational decisions based on these parameters. However once these details are know, the enemy can extrapolate the tactics the submarine will use and then formulate strategies to effectively neutralise them. Both actively and passively.
> 
> The enemy can work out how to engage with scorpene, at what range, depth, with what tools. Equipment specifications are not a joke and are most certainly kept a secret. We are not talking about details mentioned in marketing brochures, but about details provided to the captain of the vessel to help him operational the submarine.
> 
> Its idiotic to think IN will be fine with this. Its a different thing they will smile and put their chin up and say its a minor leak. No one really expects them to say the shit has hit the ceiling. After all "all" leaks are minor for public consumption.


Pure BS leaks are done on data return 2011 

The scorpene sub's have different parameters for different subs 


Suppose last scorpene sub's are filled with Indian AIP and sensors system 
Any technical parameters can be changed its all about algorithms 


As far to this leak it looking minor 
Let the report come


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## Shankranthi

cerberus said:


> Not much of leak it can be modified and corrected by measures technically
> 
> Never the less it more or like looks similar to me how can you can asses subs performance based on data written on 2011
> 
> Similar leak was done in Kremlin but the project is still on and going great



Everything in the world can be corrected with enough Money and Time. 

Let's say a 1 Billion $ and 5 to 10 years time.


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## cerberus

Dash said:


> OK let's just wait. But my understanding was that each sub has unique signatures that can only be knon "after" the sub comes out of sea trials ?


Yes it fact last two subs are modified with Indian subsystem 

Nevertheless any technical measurement can be corrected by change in algorithms and modification

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## Spectre

cerberus said:


> Not much of leak it can be modified and corrected by measures technically
> 
> Never the less it more or like looks similar to me how can you can asses subs performance based on data written on 2011
> 
> Similar leak was done in Kremlin but the project is still on and going great



What measures technically?

Can you change the engine to change noise profile? 
Can you change the hull to alter noise reduction measures?
Can you remove 100s of sensors and replace them with alternatives as their profiles are out meaning enemy can take counter measures?
Can you change the torpedo launch system? because it has significant impact on how the other vessels perceive the lock?

I go on but the point is - mitigating the damage would require extremely expensive overhaul and drastic design changes. Which is close to impossible because of cost and time involved.

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## Shankranthi

cerberus said:


> Pure BS leaks are done on data return 2011
> 
> The scorpene sub's have different parameters for different subs
> 
> Suppose last scorpene sub's are filled with Indian AIP and sensors system
> Any technical parameters can be changed its all about algorithms
> 
> As far to this leak it looking minor
> Let the report come



Are you telling me that a single model of Aircraft, automobile, ship or Submarine will have different operational parameters ?


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## Pakistan First

Another fuckup. Congrats to Indian Military.

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## cerberus

Shankranthi said:


> Everything in the world can be corrected with enough Money and Time.
> 
> Let's say a 1 Billion $ and 5 to 10 years time.


Naa h it minor changes only changes in algorithms we do the trick

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## Nilgiri

Spectre said:


> _PTI_ reports that leaked document covers a variety of details including the secret stealth capabilities of six new Indian submarines — including but not restricted to the
> 
> 1. *Frequencies at which they gather intelligence at, what noise they make at various speeds and their diving depths, range and endurance. *
> 
> 2. Safe zones on board the submarine where crew members can safely speak without fear of detection by the enemy.
> 
> 3. Vessel's underwater sensors (4,457), its above-water sensors (4,209),
> 
> 4. Combat management system (4,301),
> 
> 5. Navigation systems (2,138),
> 
> 6. Communications system (6,841)
> 
> 7. Torpedo launch system.
> 
> 
> @Olaf One-Brow @PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @Nilgiri seems like more than manuals to me.



All thats described would be in the manual  in some way.

Like every antenna is going to have a frequency range and specific modes of operation in a detailed manual. What really matters is the details of the architecture in the signal processing....an opponent could make new submarines to hypothetically exploit certain weaknesses at various ranges....but this is pretty darn hard to do not to mention expensive with no guarantee. Only basic elements of this would be in a manual....dunno about adjuncts (not my field).

The noise at various speeds also depends how detailed of a profile it is. Like is there an acoustic waveform presented...or is it a simple decibel range for calibration and other purposes?

There is a high variance of the potential potency of all of this. Can't decide how bad this leak is just on words I am afraid.

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## Shankranthi

cerberus said:


> Yes it fact last two subs are modified with Indian subsystem
> 
> Nevertheless any technical measurement can be corrected by change in algorithms and modification



Latest report suggested that Indian AIP is scrapped. IN wanted DCNS AIP.



Spectre said:


> What measures technically?
> 
> Can you change the engine to change noise profile?
> Can you change the hull to alter noise reduction measures?
> Can you remove 100s of sensors and replace them with alternatives as their profiles are out meaning enemy can take counter measures?
> Can you change the torpedo launch system? because it has significant impact on how the other vessels perceive the lock?
> 
> I go on but the point is - mitigating the damage would require extremely expensive overhaul and drastic design changes. Which is close to impossible because of cost and time involved.



Apparently these can be done by "changing algorithms"

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## PARIKRAMA

Spectre said:


> _PTI_ reports that leaked document covers a variety of details including the secret stealth capabilities of six new Indian submarines — including but not restricted to the
> 
> 1. *Frequencies at which they gather intelligence at, what noise they make at various speeds and their diving depths, range and endurance. *
> 
> 2. Safe zones on board the submarine where crew members can safely speak without fear of detection by the enemy.
> 
> 3. Vessel's underwater sensors (4,457), its above-water sensors (4,209),
> 
> 4. Combat management system (4,301),
> 
> 5. Navigation systems (2,138),
> 
> 6. Communications system (6,841)
> 
> 7. Torpedo launch system.
> 
> 
> @Olaf One-Brow @PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @Nilgiri seems like more than manuals to me.


THis is the page on which basis all noise things are being said
















Pls refer to this





as i said earlier its guaranteed noise levels inside submarines as depicted in the first page where all component space is defined under standard conditions of sea state 1.

The whole world knows you wont raise periscope at high speed.. and safety depth is a known feature in a basic RFI.

each of those points from 2-7 does not share the technical specs but rather the operating manuals. The reason being Scorpene in Indian MDL has much higher localisation and most of the parts are being made locally by pvt sector MIC.

Thus if a data leak happens from Indian vendors we can kiss capability good bye. Here the whole leak as and when investigation is completed will show its manuals only.

Sadly the procedures and manuals marked restricted not "confidential" and "for eyes only" kind of gives away .. of course its a breach but still Indian scorpenes are not compromised as we would like to believe in a knee jerk reaction.

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## cerberus

Shankranthi said:


> Are you telling me that a single model of Aircraft, automobile, ship or aircraft will have different operational parameters ?


Yes all are about what Technical parameters you are talking about 

For example one aircraft has AeSa and drfm 

Other has MMR 

You can spot the difference in their performance

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## shah1398

Mukunda Murthi Rao said:


> Documents detailing the secret combat capabilities of Scorpene-class submarines that French shipbuilder DCNS has designed for the Indian Navy have been leaked, and could prove to a bonanza for India’s rivals such as Pakistan, according to an Australian media report on Tuesday.



It wud be interesting to know about source of the leak.


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## Shankranthi

cerberus said:


> Yes all are about what Technical parameters you are talking about
> 
> For example one aircraft has AeSa and drfm
> 
> Other has MMR
> 
> You can spot the difference in their performance



Read my post AGAIN. I am talking about the SAME MODEL of Aircraft, Ships or Subs.



PARIKRAMA said:


> THis is the page on which basis all noise things are being said
> 
> 
> View attachment 328402
> 
> View attachment 328403
> 
> View attachment 328404
> 
> 
> Pls refer to this
> View attachment 328405
> 
> 
> as i said earlier its guaranteed noise levels inside submarines as depicted in the first page where all component space is defined under standard conditions of sea state 1.
> 
> The whole world knows you wont raise periscope at high speed.. and safety depth is a known feature in a basic RFI.
> 
> each of those points from 2-7 does not share the technical specs but rather the operating manuals. The reason being Scorpene in Indian MDL has much higher localisation and most of the parts are being made locally by pvt sector MIC.
> 
> Thus if a data leak happens from Indian vendors we can kiss capability good bye. Here the whole leak as and when investigation is completed will show its manuals only.
> 
> Sadly the procedures and manuals marked restricted not "confidential" and "for eyes only" kind of gives away .. of course its a breach but still Indian scorpenes are not compromised as we would like to believe in a knee jerk reaction.



I am guessing that the newspaper would face legal action if they publish documents marked "confidential". 

Its reasonable to assume that such documents were not published, but very much in possession with the Newspaper as they have suggested.

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## PARIKRAMA

GuardianRED said:


> Q: Is this leak targeted at the AUS sub deal and the Indian Subs happened to be in the Blast area or is it the other way round? If the Latter why send the leaked data to an Aussie Newspaper?




The trail is longer surely.. but its a target for both India and australia.. tbh barracuda shares limited similarity to scorpenes.. so Australia is not affected much other than loss of reputation and credibility of DCNS
India suffers much more owing to the second assembly line and future cooperation which will now be played by yellow journalism articles.. The case of Dassault being costly and DCNS being a source of leak will be played so much that finally opposition and the whole masses will say maintain freeze over underwater fleet expansion.

In one shot the end loser is whom - Australia no contract signed till date
or India where everything from one line to second for parallely 5 sub production to all cooperation everything goes up the smoke..

connect the dots you will see the big picture.. Finally a new war is now initiated against India in a big way...

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## Spectre

Nilgiri said:


> All thats described would be in the manual  in some way.
> 
> Like every antenna is going to have a frequency range and specific modes of operation in a detailed manual. What really matters is the details of the architecture in the signal processing....an opponent could make new submarines to hypothetically exploit certain weaknesses at various ranges....but this is pretty darn hard to do not to mention expensive with no guarantee. Only basic elements of this would be in a manual....dunno about adjuncts (not my field).
> 
> The noise at various speeds also depends how detailed of a profile it is. Like is there an acoustic waveform presented...or is it a simple decibel range for calibration and other purposes?
> 
> There is a high variance of the potential potency of all of this. Can't decide how bad this leak is just on words I am afraid.



We are not talking about receiving but transmission.

When one knows the noise frequency details at various depths - then one doesn't need to build a new sub. All enemy has to do is to code the information in the mission computer or at max add a few sensors to cover left out frequencies and voila! you are good to go.. To counter it is not so easy and would require expensive overhaul of major emission and emission mitigation systems

Let's take the best case scenario - instead of complete profile of. waveforms what they have is just a range. Now range cannot be too broad as then it would be useless for caliberation. This still makes the job of enemy much easier. Instead scanning the complete spectrum they just have to focus on a narrow range of frequencies.

Pls understand that frequency profiles are DNA finger prints. Unique - you can't confuse it with something else. You can change the noise profiles at different depths sure but for a given depth there is only so much you can do. So the calibration while important at receiver end is not so significant at transmission end. TLDR we are stuck..

Sub to sub battles is not a long chess game - it is high noon style shoot-out. Detect - Shoot - Scoot.

That is why the saying - run silent, run deep.

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## Shankranthi

PARIKRAMA said:


> The trail is longer surely.. but its a target for both India and australia.. tbh barracuda shares limited similarity to scorpenes.. so Australia is not affected much other than loss of reputation and credibility of DCNS
> India suffers much more owing to the second assembly line and future cooperation which will now be played by yellow journalism articles.. The case of Dassault being costly and DCNS being a source of leak will be played so much that finally opposition and the whole masses will say maintain freeze over underwater fleet expansion.
> 
> In one shot the end loser is whom - Australia no contract signed till date
> or India where everything from one line to second for parallely 5 sub production to all cooperation everything goes up the smoke..
> 
> connect the dots you will see the big picture.. Finally a new war is now initiated against India in a big way...



Its a case of killing more than 2 birds with one stone.

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## NKVD

Spectre said:


> Can you change the engine to change noise profile?
> Can you change the hull to alter noise reduction measures?


What Hull has to do With Propeller Noise
Seriously


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## jha

PARIKRAMA said:


> The trail is longer surely.. but its a target for both India and australia.. tbh barracuda shares limited similarity to scorpenes.. so Australia is not affected much other than loss of reputation and credibility of DCNS
> India suffers much more owing to the second assembly line and future cooperation which will now be played by yellow journalism articles.. The case of Dassault being costly and DCNS being a source of leak will be played so much that finally opposition and the whole masses will say maintain freeze over underwater fleet expansion.
> 
> In one shot the end loser is whom - Australia no contract signed till date
> or India where everything from one line to second for parallely 5 sub production to all cooperation everything goes up the smoke..
> 
> connect the dots you will see the big picture.. Finally a new war is now initiated against India in a big way...



This will cost some deep political capital from Modi to go ahead with more Scorpenes. MDL has expanded facility and within months we have this news report on a leak which happened 5 years ago. Fishy. Very Fishy.

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## NKVD

Spectre said:


> Can you remove 100s of sensors and replace them with alternatives as their profiles are out meaning enemy can take counter measures?





Spectre said:


> We are not talking about receiving but transmission.
> 
> When one knows the noise frequency details at various depths - then one doesn't need to build a new sub. All enemy has to do is to code the information in the mission computer or at max add a few sensors to cover left out frequencies and voila! you are good to go.. To counter it is not so easy and would require expensive overhaul of major emission and emission mitigation systems
> 
> Let's take the best case scenario - instead of complete profile of. waveforms what they have is just a range. Now range cannot be too broad as then it would be useless for caliberation. This still makes the job of enemy much easier. Instead scanning the complete spectrum they just have to focus on a narrow range of frequencies.
> 
> Pls understand that frequency profiles are DNA finger prints. Unique - you can't confuse it with something else. You can change the noise profiles at different depths sure but for a given depth there is only so much you can do. So the calibration while important at receiver end is not so significant at transmission end. TLDR we are stuck..
> 
> Sub to sub battles is not a long chess game - it is high noon style shoot-out. Detect - Shoot - Scoot.
> 
> That is why the saying - run silent, run deep.


All your Assumptions made on just one Report Leaked in Media That to not clear what data is Leaked 

First Let the Investigation complete


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## PARIKRAMA

Shankranthi said:


> I am guessing that the newspaper would face legal action if they publish documents marked "confidential".
> 
> Its reasonable to assume that such documents were not published, but very much in possession with the Newspaper as they have suggested.



possible but then its gonna be a bigger scandal for even aussie newspaper.. the trail and ppl form 2011 time onwards will see many other ppl get entangled..

I wont lie, morning the friend in Indian Navy whom i talked said his first hand feeling after coming to know yesterday afternoon about this was that this information might have leaked to competition during the 2011-2013 period. To showcase what is there as part of support package and procedures and basic detailing required in documentation and training..

Surely there might be more bcz if its a navy officer from any side (India or France) the access to other "restricted" set is of course possible.

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## Spectre

NKVD said:


> What Hull has to do With Propeller Noise
> Seriously



First answer 

Do you want scientific studies on scattering effect of hull on the non cavitation noise of propeller running in wake of submarine?

Then again, propellers are not the only emission platforms, there are others as Sven or @Olaf One-Brow said.



NKVD said:


> All your Assumptions made on just one Report Leaked in Media That to not clear what data is Leaked
> 
> First Let the Investigation complete



Perhaps so.. but then again information was admittedly privileged. Information is marked privileged or classified for a reason or there would be no leak. 

Only thing which is left to decide or investigate is how bad are we hurt? 

Is it an amputation or organ failure..

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## Nilgiri

Spectre said:


> We are not talking about receiving but transmission.
> 
> When one knows the noise frequency details at various depths - then one doesn't need to build a new sub. All enemy has to do is to code the information in the mission computer or at max add a few sensors to cover left out frequencies and voila! you are good to go.. To counter it is not so easy and would require expensive overhaul of major emission and emission mitigation systems
> 
> Let's take the best case scenario - instead of complete profile of. waveforms what they have is just a range. Now range cannot be too broad as then it would be useless for caliberation. This still makes the job of enemy much easier. Instead scanning the complete spectrum they just have to focus on a narrow range of frequencies.
> 
> Pls understand that frequency profiles are DNA finger prints. Unique - you can't confuse it with something else. You can change the noise profiles at different depths sure but for a given depth there is only so much you can do. So the calibration while important at receiver end is not so significant at transmission end. TLDR we are stuck..
> 
> Sub to sub battles is not a long chess game - it is high noon style shoot-out. Detect - Shoot - Scoot.
> 
> That is why the saying - run silent, run deep.



Look unless you have seen the exact details of the documents you can't make this judgement call with just words in the media.

It looks like PARIKRAMA has already posted what could be what is being talked about here....so lets wait and see.

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## Arsalan

Merge this with:
https://defence.pk/threads/sensitive-data-of-indian-navy’s-scorpene-class-submarines-leaked.445677/

@WAJsal @Slav Defence

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## Shankranthi

NKVD said:


> What Hull has to do With Propeller Noise
> Seriously



Hulls are required to have acoustic retardation properties. Some sections are more padded for noise than others. Not all acoustic noise comes from propellers.

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## NKVD

Spectre said:


> First answer
> 
> Do you want scientific studies on scattering effect of hull on the non cavitation noise of propeller running in wake of submarine?
> 
> Then again, propellers are not the only emission platforms, there are others as Sven or @Olaf One-Brow said.


*I Don't Want Any thing i Know most of It And As We Know Such details are never Transferred By OEM to any Clients And These are Industrial Secrets which are Never documented but Only Known to Research Scientist 

I doubt DNCs ever Made such Information public or even documented *



Shankranthi said:


> Hulls are required to have acoustic retardation properties. Some sections are more padded for noise than others. Not all acoustic noise comes from propellers.


*How this Information Is transferred by OEM to India Why Will they share Industrial secret To India Except Log Manuals or user guide 
*


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## Spectre

NKVD said:


> *I Don't Want Any thing i Know most of It And Partly Know Such details are never Transferred By OEM to any And These Industrial Secrets which are Never documented but Only Known to Rearch Scientist
> 
> I doubt DNCs ever Made such Information public *



Then why did you suggest hull did not have any impact on noise emissions? Your post was kinda saying I dont know my shit.


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## Shankranthi

PARIKRAMA said:


> possible but then its gonna be a bigger scandal for even aussie newspaper.. the trail and ppl form 2011 time onwards will see many other ppl get entangled..
> 
> I wont lie, morning the friend in Indian Navy whom i talked said his first hand feeling after coming to know yesterday afternoon about this was that this information might have leaked to competition during the 2011-2013 period. To showcase what is there as part of support package and procedures and basic detailing required in documentation and training..
> 
> Surely there might be more bcz if its a navy officer from any side (India or France) the access to other "restricted" set is of course possible.



Why would the newspaper get entangled in the scandal ? they did their job by exposing the leak and at the same time have published that not all data was printed for security concerns. 

They were more responsible than DCNS. (imagine that)

Its clear that this leak took place much earlier and only NOW found its way to Australian newspaper after having covered half the globe. 

The solution would be to go for an upgrade in the next series of submarines to change its characteristics. That is the minefield IN and MOD have to negotiate preferable with little help from DCNS. 

Not to mention withholding funds to DCNS and freezing those bank guarantees.

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## Arsalan

MastanKhan said:


> It is of the type that needs a firing squad---but what you make out of it is a different story---.
> A fake information may also be leaked out.


It can and will be verified pretty quickly sir. Nations operating in the same area will check for the given signs and see if it was true or fake so purposely releasing a fake do not makes much sense. 



A_Poster said:


> Does not matter. If a newspaper has this data, be sure that this data has gone through more hand than a dollar an hour wh0re.
> 
> *What I am interested in is how sensitive is this data. *Is it something which could be found in public literature, if you dig hard enough; or is it something that would get you executed for treason, if leaked.


If it do includes the radar signature, noise levels it makes at different speeds, propeller noise and such stuff then these are the things enemy spend years to gather in detail by process called shadowing and via intelligence gathering. So it is pretty serious if the report is true.

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## Shankranthi

NKVD said:


> *How this Information Is transferred by OEM to India Why Will they share Industrial secret To India Except Log Manuals or user guide *



Its called Vendor development. ToT and licensing.


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## NKVD

Spectre said:


> Then why did you suggest hull did not have any impact on noise emissions? Your post was kinda saying I dont know my shit.


Much Like you who change Goal Posts Hull is not Primary Source of Noise it Physical expect 
The propeller resonates when turning, and cavitation (noise generated by bubbles collapsing) can develop. Additionally, the turbulent flow of water around the ship can excite the hull itself. *Each type of noise has a unique pattern,* *which can differ with speed, depth, and water conditions.* Quieting technologies continue to improve and are increasingly available to backfit older submarines. *Hull coatings, improved propeller design, and quieted propulsion plant equipment reduce the submarine's overall noise levels, especially at high speeds.*



*So each of these Measures Can be corrected So Every Subs has different Noise Pattern to other subs Like Harley davidson bike Engines 

you Telling me that Leaked Documents some how done Deja vu or foresighted unconstructed subs details *



Arsalan said:


> If it do includes the radar signature, noise levels it makes at different speeds, propeller noise and such stuff then these are the things enemy spend years to gather in detail by process called shadowing and via intelligence gathering. So it is pretty serious if the report is true.


But how Each Engine has different parameters . Each type of noise has a unique pattern which can differ with* speed, depth, and water conditions

Much these Subs are not even constructed yeat except one *


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## Spectre

NKVD said:


> Much Like you who change Goal Posts Hull is not Primary Source of Noise it Physical expect
> The propeller resonates when turning, and cavitation (noise generated by bubbles collapsing) can develop. Additionally, the turbulent flow of water around the ship can excite the hull itself. *Each type of noise has a unique pattern,* which can differ with speed, depth, and water conditions. Quieting technologies continue to improve and are increasingly available to backfit older submarines. *Hull coatings, improved propeller design, and quieted propulsion plant equipment *reduce the submarine's overall noise levels, especially at high speeds.
> 
> 
> 
> *So each of these Measures Can be corrected So Every Subs has different Noise Pattern to other subs Like Harley davidson bike Engines
> 
> you Telling me that Leaked Documents some how done Deja vu or foresighted unconstructed subs details *



Again.. Each sub will have a different noise profile but a class of sub will have a similar profile with very minute differences. 

That is why every navy has standing instruction to destroy the sub in case of disaster. You analyse one sub and you get the key to entire class.

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## thesolar65

we here don't have patience even to read the first post of any article or the first page of any thread!! And reading 22000 pages?? First of all who will read it and who is going remember what he has read??

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## Shankranthi

thesolar65 said:


> we here don't have patience even to read the first post of any article or the first page of any thread!! And reading 22000 pages?? First of all who will read it and who is going remember what he has read??



LOL....seriously ?

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## NKVD

Spectre said:


> Again.. Each sub will have a different noise profile but a class of sub will have a similar profile with very minute differences.


Again you missed my Post completely

* which can differ with speed, depth, and water conditions(Its never tested in indian waters)*. Quieting Hull coatings, improved propeller design, and quieted propulsion plant equipment reduce the submarine's overall noise levels, especially at high speeds.

Have you ever Drove harley davidson Mate Any one who Own harley get my Point


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## thesolar65

Shankranthi said:


> LOL....seriously ?



Seriously...Yes.

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## NKVD

Spectre said:


> That is why every navy has standing instruction to destroy the sub in case of disaster. You analyse one sub and you get the key to entire class.


Very Amateurish point

I Know even Arihant class Subs Don't have same Features Even though they comes in same class


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## Nilgiri

thesolar65 said:


> we here don't have patience even to read the first post of any article or the first page of any thread!! And reading 22000 pages?? First of all who will read it and who is going remember what he has read??



You dont have to use just one person you know

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## NKVD

Shankranthi said:


> Its called Vendor development. ToT and licensing.


*Ok they Transferred All Secrets now Why not Cancel contract And Make are own Subs from Scratch*

*Same goes To MKI Why Not stop Importing frown russia 
Id we can built A twin Engine Aircraft from scratch* *here in India by TOT*

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## Shankranthi

NKVD said:


> *Ok they Transferred All Secrets now Why not Cancel contract And Make are own Subs from Scratch*
> 
> *Same goes To MKI Why Not stop Importing frown russia
> Id we can built A twin Engine Aircraft from scratch*



Cost. Reputation. Risk. Quality.

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## [Bregs]

They dealyed Rafale deal so much that now it too might get affected, paisa bachane chale thay rafale deal main

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## Vergennes

@PARIKRAMA @Blue Marlin @Nilgiri @Abingdonboy @BON PLAN @anant_s
-
French naval contractor DCNS said on Wednesday that it could not rule out that leaked documents on submarines built for India were part of an "economic war" by competitors after the firm won a tender in Australia earlier this year.

"For now we don't know if the information is correct," a DCNS spokeswoman said. "The competition is more and more hard and all means can be used in this context."

"There is India, Australia and other prospects, and other countries could raise legitimate questions over DCNS. It's part of the tools in economic war," she said.

http://www.reuters.com/article/france-submarines-dcns-idUSP6N17300V

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## PARIKRAMA

http://www.reuters.com/article/france-submarines-dcns-idUSP6N17300V

https://defence.pk/threads/frances-dcns-does-not-rule-out-economic-war-after-documents-leak.445780/

@Vergennes - In here sir.. lets collate all in one thread

@waz @WAJsal @Irfan Baloch @Arsalan 
Can you folks merge the other thread in the link with this one.. Its better if we collate all info in one place..

and also this new thread
https://defence.pk/threads/theres-b...ter-manohar-parrikar-on-scorpene-leak.445785/

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## jha

This most probably is a case of corporate war. DCNS may very well respond in kind.

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## Blue Marlin

the japanese may still be buthurt but now happy and making quiet visits to australia to push them in favour of the japs.
but it wont happen.
and the Germans will be like, what a coincidence and the Russians wouldn't care

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## Grevion

DCNS will now be like 
And the Indians/Australians will be

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## TsAr

What Impact would this have on Indian Navy?

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/ther...ter-manohar-parrikar-on-scorpene-leak-1449483


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## SR-91

PARIKRAMA said:


> If we dont take any action also its a bigger issue.. Unless of course we stuck some bargain and get something else from DCNS for free in lieu of continuing the contract of 6 scorpenes..
> 
> This will turn out to be a corporate arm twisting scenario.. DM MP will not let such a chance go.. Either there will be some serious action or some additional things shared by France /DCNS to all aggrieved parties - India and Australia both to salvage their respective deal /potential contract and do damage control





We have a very Nationalist Govt, Modi n Parrikar are not the kind that will keep quiet. Shit has hit the fan, expect repercussions. We'll know in a couple of days. 
Either way, this drama not going to end well, IMO.

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## [Bregs]

Hmm mature and just reasonable statement frm DCNS as of now, only detailed investigation will reveal what the future will be for DCNS, Scorpene, Australian deal. but this leak has certainly set in motion an unhealthy precedent

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## anant_s

Given the size of Indian defence market and planned procurements, it really is naive to think large defence corporations are going to sit idle especially the ones who could not win large deals.
Although it is too early to comment if the story of leak has any substance to it, but dirty corporate practices cannot be ruled out.
It was all visible when India was negotiating with Dassault and other bidders rejected in MMRCA started to mount a campaign against Rafale (most notable the one comparing Rafale with J-20).
Broadly if we consider Indo-French areas of co-operation in heavy engineering at this moment, i can list following:


*Scorpene Subs




*
*Rafale*
*



*
*PRIMA 2 locos*





*EPR 2 Reactors*





The total economic value of these contracts (signed or under negotiations) runs in billions of dollars over a large time duration. France has won most of these deals in fair competition and unfortunately the world around us is not full of those who accept defeat graciously.
& here i think the use of crooked means to defame/ cause loss to either India or France, cannot be ruled out.
Hopefully both nations which have had a great history of friendship and warm relations, will consider (if true) all these unfortunate developments as minor blimps only.

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## Gregor Clegane

Culprit is most probably German HDW.

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## GuardianRED

Just watched NDTV

So far - IN has confirmed the source is outside India and that the data leaked is not current and not substantial
+ They put this same Question to Anthony of all people Damn!

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## BON PLAN

Blue Marlin said:


> the agosta is compleatly differant from the scorpene?


Yes.
Agosta is a 70' tech. Even the last version (90B used by ****) don't have the "skipjack" hull.
The nose for exemple isn't as pure as a Scorpene one : less effective, more noisy.





Scorpene is a 2000' tech.

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## SirHatesALot

This is what happens when you just keep buying stuff from outside.
Build your own weapons they may not be top of the line but the more experience you get form these eventually you will have a better product.

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## BON PLAN

Shankranthi said:


> The French are Famous for leaking information.
> 
> They leaked it during the Falklands wars and betrayed Argentina.
> 
> They leaked NATO air strike war plans to serbs.
> 
> They betrayed Russia over Mistral.
> 
> Now this.


It's not time to say BS.

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## jha

People are concerned..

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...-submarine-data-leak/articleshow/53840218.cms

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## Shankranthi

BON PLAN said:


> It's not time to say BS.



Loose lips sink Ship.


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## dadeechi

As per reports DCNS has blamed India for the leak - Congress news briefing..

If true then no country would be willing sell their products to India going forward.

Following details have been leaked

4301 pages of combat management system
493 pages of Torpedo launch and stealth system
4457 Pages of Underwater sensors
4209 pages of above water sensors
6841 pages of communication system, Diving depth, range and endurance
Magnetic, Electromagnetic and infrared details
Frequencies at which information is gathered
Speed and periscope details
Noise specifications of the propeller
Radiated noise level at surface
Noise at various speeds


As per reports DCNS has blamed India for the leak - Congress news briefing..

If true then no country would be willing sell their products to India going forward.

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## A_Poster

dadeechi said:


> As per reports DCNS has blamed India for the leak - Congress news briefing..
> 
> If true then no country would be willing sell their products to India going forward.




Report also states that it was an ex-French naval officer who was serving as a contractor and copied this data. 

I think these leaks are of same seriousness as Chinese espionage of F-35 program's subcontractor.

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## Shankranthi

Scorpene submarine Leak - French firm DCNS kept us in the dark says MoD.

Notwithstanding the close ties between India and France, French firm DCNS which is helping India build constructing sixScorpene submarines in Mumbai, chose to not inform the Indian Navy (IN) or the Ministry of Defence (MoD) about the leak of nearly 22,400 sensitive documents pertaining to the submarine program and its secret features. Top sources in the *Indian establishment have informed INDIA TODAY that they learnt the matter from the Australian press reports.*

What makes this significant is that DCNS while replying to the Australian press tried to reassure, saying the leak which hit the Scorpene program would not recur in the Australian submarine contract it has recently secured. *However, this information was not passed to the Indian side. *It was reported by the 'The Australian', "The company also implied - but did not say directly - that the leak might have occurred at India's end, rather than from France. 'Uncontrolled technical data is not possible in the Australian Âarrangements,' the company said".

The report then quoted DCNS saying, "Multiple and independent controls exist within DCNS to prevent unauthorised access to data and all data movements are encrypted and recorded. In the case of India, where a DCNS design is built by a local company, DCNS is the provider and not the controller of technical data. In the case of Australia, and unlike India, DCNS is both the provider and in-country controller of technical data for the full chain of transmission and usage over the life of the submarines". It was also mentioned that the needle of suspicion, for the alleged theft, was on a former French naval officer who was a part of DCNS in 2011.

While it may not have been possible to avert the theft, but information shared earlier could have help react sooner and more effectively.

*GROPING IN THE DARK*

"*Our biggest problem is that we just don't know how much we have lost*. We are only taking baby steps in our effort to understand what has hit us," said a senior source.

When asked if it was incumbent on the DCNS to keep its Indian partner in the loop, *Vice Admiral KN Sushil (Retd), a submariner said, "If they can reply to the Australian media they should well have informed us about this leak as well. Perhaps they may have thought that they would obliquely be admitting to the leak if they informed us".*

The DCNS and Navantia of Spain are the technology providers who are overseeing India's Mazagon Dock Shipbuilders Limited (MDL) build these six submarines for a total cost of $3.5 billion. Armaris is the main French contracting firm which overlooks the MDL's efforts.

*PARRIKAR SEEKS REPORTS FROM NAVY CHIEF*

While Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar termed the leaks as a result of 'hacking' and said he had sought a report from the navy chief, the Indian Navy in an official statement said, "The available information is being examined at Integrated Headquarters, Ministry of Defence (Navy) and an analysis is being carried out by the concerned specialists. It appears that the source of leak is from overseas and not in India."

*A spokesperson for DCNS India was approached for a comment but there was none provided till the time this article was written. *

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## dadeechi

A_Poster said:


> Report also states that it was an ex-French naval officer who was serving as a contractor and copied this data.
> 
> I think these leaks are of same seriousness as Chinese espionage of F-35 program's subcontractor.



See the highlighted. DCNS is blaming India.



*Scorpene submarine data leak: Here’s what we know so far about the case*
*Scorpene Submarine data leak: Read all about Scorpene Submarine data scandal here. The Govt has launched a probe after the leak.*
By: Express Web Desk
*New Delhi* Updated: Aug 24, 2016, 15:58



By: Express Web Desk | New Delhi | Updated: August 24, 2016 3:58 pm








An employee looks at the propeller of a Scorpene submarine at the industrial site of the naval defence company and shipbuilder DCNS in La Montagne near Nantes, France (REUTERS/Stephane Mahe/File Photo)
There has been a data leak and it is big. ‘The Australian’ newspaper reported on Wednesday that over 22,000 pages detailing the combat and performance capabilities of six Scorpene-class submarines produced by India in partnership with French company DCNS have been leaked. India had signed a $3.5 billion deal in 2005 to build six Scorpene-class submarines, designed by the French company, at the Mazagon Dock Shipbuilders Limited in Mumbai. The newspaper report has said the information is sensitive and highly classified.

INS Kalvari, first of the Scorpene-class submarines, is expected to be inducted into the Indian Navy later this year.

*Stand of the Indian government*

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said there has been a hacking and that a clear picture will emerge in the days to come.

“I have asked the Navy chief to study the entire issue about what has been leaked, what is there about us and to what extent. It came to my knowledge at about 12 AM. What I understand is there is a hacking. So we will find out all this,” Parrikar told reporters in New Delhi.

The Defence Minister said he does not suspect the leak to be 100 per cent since a lot of final integration lies with India.

*READ*: All you need to know about the Navy’s stealth weapon

*What’s the nature of the data*

The data that has been leaked is reported to have details like specifications of the torpedo launch system, speed and condition needed for using the periscope and functioning of the above-water and underwater sensors. According to the report, the data tells the submarine crew where on the boat they can speak safely to avoid detection by the enemy.

PTI said over 4,000 pages on the submarine’s combat management system are among the leaked information.




Indian Navy’s first Scorpene submarine of project 75 is seen after being undocked from Mazagon Docks Ltd, a naval vessel ship building yard, in Mumbai. (Express Photo by Ganesh Shirsekar)
*Source of the leak*

“The Australian” report claimed the data was most probably leaked not from India but from DCNS in France as it also includes separate confidential DCNS files on plans to sell French frigates to Chile and the French sale of the Mistral-class amphibious assault ship carrier to Russia. Since these projects of the DCNS have no link to India, there is high probability that the data files were removed from the company in France.

* But DCNS implied that the leak might have occurred at India’s end, rather than from France.

“Uncontrolled technical data is not possible in the Australian arrangements,” the company said.*

*Also read*: Will probe leak, says DCNS

*“Multiple and independent controls exist within DCNS to prevent unauthorised access to data and all data movements are encrypted and recorded. In the case of India, where a DCNS design is built by a local company, DCNS is the provider and not the controller of technical data,” the company said.*

The data on the submarine was written in France for India in 2011 and is suspected of being removed from France in that same year by a former French Navy officer who was at that time a DCNS subcontractor.

“The data is then believed to have been taken to a company in Southeast Asia, possibly to assist in a commercial venture for a regional navy. It was subsequently passed by a third party to a second company in the region before being sent on a data disk by regular mail to a company in Australia…It is unclear how widely the data has been shared in Asia or whether it has been obtained by foreign intelligence agencies,” the report said.







*Fears in Australia*

There are fears in Australia surrounding the security of data on the future fleet of its own Navy. French company DCNS had won the bid to design the new fleet of Australian $50 billion submarines.

Australian Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull said it was important to note the submarine DCNS was building for India was a completely different model to the one it will build for Australia and the leaked information was a few years out of date, PTI reported.

“Nevertheless, any leak of classified information was a concern,” he was quoted as saying. The newspaper also said the company has assured Australia that the leak it has suffered in connection with the Indian submarines would not happen in the case of that country.

_(With inputs from PTI)_


http://indianexpress.com/article/in...ine-data-leak-indian-navy-dcns-facts-2993755/

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## Taimoor Khan

It would be a good read for Pakistani strategic planners. They would care less if it was a result of economic war or not.

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## Shankranthi

dadeechi said:


> See the highlighted. DCNS is blaming India.
> 
> 
> 
> *Scorpene submarine data leak: Here’s what we know so far about the case*
> *Scorpene Submarine data leak: Read all about Scorpene Submarine data scandal here. The Govt has launched a probe after the leak.*
> By: Express Web Desk
> *New Delhi* Updated: Aug 24, 2016, 15:58
> 
> 
> 
> By: Express Web Desk | New Delhi | Updated: August 24, 2016 3:58 pm
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> An employee looks at the propeller of a Scorpene submarine at the industrial site of the naval defence company and shipbuilder DCNS in La Montagne near Nantes, France (REUTERS/Stephane Mahe/File Photo)
> There has been a data leak and it is big. ‘The Australian’ newspaper reported on Wednesday that over 22,000 pages detailing the combat and performance capabilities of six Scorpene-class submarines produced by India in partnership with French company DCNS have been leaked. India had signed a $3.5 billion deal in 2005 to build six Scorpene-class submarines, designed by the French company, at the Mazagon Dock Shipbuilders Limited in Mumbai. The newspaper report has said the information is sensitive and highly classified.
> 
> INS Kalvari, first of the Scorpene-class submarines, is expected to be inducted into the Indian Navy later this year.
> 
> *Stand of the Indian government*
> 
> Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said there has been a hacking and that a clear picture will emerge in the days to come.
> 
> “I have asked the Navy chief to study the entire issue about what has been leaked, what is there about us and to what extent. It came to my knowledge at about 12 AM. What I understand is there is a hacking. So we will find out all this,” Parrikar told reporters in New Delhi.
> 
> The Defence Minister said he does not suspect the leak to be 100 per cent since a lot of final integration lies with India.
> 
> *READ*: All you need to know about the Navy’s stealth weapon
> 
> *What’s the nature of the data*
> 
> The data that has been leaked is reported to have details like specifications of the torpedo launch system, speed and condition needed for using the periscope and functioning of the above-water and underwater sensors. According to the report, the data tells the submarine crew where on the boat they can speak safely to avoid detection by the enemy.
> 
> PTI said over 4,000 pages on the submarine’s combat management system are among the leaked information.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indian Navy’s first Scorpene submarine of project 75 is seen after being undocked from Mazagon Docks Ltd, a naval vessel ship building yard, in Mumbai. (Express Photo by Ganesh Shirsekar)
> *Source of the leak*
> 
> “The Australian” report claimed the data was most probably leaked not from India but from DCNS in France as it also includes separate confidential DCNS files on plans to sell French frigates to Chile and the French sale of the Mistral-class amphibious assault ship carrier to Russia. Since these projects of the DCNS have no link to India, there is high probability that the data files were removed from the company in France.
> 
> But DCNS implied that the leak might have occurred at India’s end, rather than from France.
> 
> “Uncontrolled technical data is not possible in the Australian arrangements,” the company said.
> 
> *Also read*: Will probe leak, says DCNS
> 
> *“Multiple and independent controls exist within DCNS to prevent unauthorised access to data and all data movements are encrypted and recorded. In the case of India, where a DCNS design is built by a local company, DCNS is the provider and not the controller of technical data,” the company said.*
> 
> The data on the submarine was written in France for India in 2011 and is suspected of being removed from France in that same year by a former French Navy officer who was at that time a DCNS subcontractor.
> 
> “The data is then believed to have been taken to a company in Southeast Asia, possibly to assist in a commercial venture for a regional navy. It was subsequently passed by a third party to a second company in the region before being sent on a data disk by regular mail to a company in Australia…It is unclear how widely the data has been shared in Asia or whether it has been obtained by foreign intelligence agencies,” the report said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Fears in Australia*
> 
> There are fears in Australia surrounding the security of data on the future fleet of its own Navy. French company DCNS had won the bid to design the new fleet of Australian $50 billion submarines.
> 
> Australian Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull said it was important to note the submarine DCNS was building for India was a completely different model to the one it will build for Australia and the leaked information was a few years out of date, PTI reported.
> 
> “Nevertheless, any leak of classified information was a concern,” he was quoted as saying. The newspaper also said the company has assured Australia that the leak it has suffered in connection with the Indian submarines would not happen in the case of that country.
> 
> _(With inputs from PTI)_
> 
> 
> http://indianexpress.com/article/in...ine-data-leak-indian-navy-dcns-facts-2993755/



DCNS has already thrown us to the dogs.  ................ what a nice choice of 'partners'. With friends like these we don't need enemies.


----------



## A_Poster

dadeechi said:


> See the highlighted. DCNS is blaming India.
> 
> 
> 
> *Scorpene submarine data leak: Here’s what we know so far about the case*
> *Scorpene Submarine data leak: Read all about Scorpene Submarine data scandal here. The Govt has launched a probe after the leak.*
> By: Express Web Desk
> *New Delhi* Updated: Aug 24, 2016, 15:58
> 
> 
> 
> By: Express Web Desk | New Delhi | Updated: August 24, 2016 3:58 pm
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> An employee looks at the propeller of a Scorpene submarine at the industrial site of the naval defence company and shipbuilder DCNS in La Montagne near Nantes, France (REUTERS/Stephane Mahe/File Photo)
> There has been a data leak and it is big. ‘The Australian’ newspaper reported on Wednesday that over 22,000 pages detailing the combat and performance capabilities of six Scorpene-class submarines produced by India in partnership with French company DCNS have been leaked. India had signed a $3.5 billion deal in 2005 to build six Scorpene-class submarines, designed by the French company, at the Mazagon Dock Shipbuilders Limited in Mumbai. The newspaper report has said the information is sensitive and highly classified.
> 
> INS Kalvari, first of the Scorpene-class submarines, is expected to be inducted into the Indian Navy later this year.
> 
> *Stand of the Indian government*
> 
> Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said there has been a hacking and that a clear picture will emerge in the days to come.
> 
> “I have asked the Navy chief to study the entire issue about what has been leaked, what is there about us and to what extent. It came to my knowledge at about 12 AM. What I understand is there is a hacking. So we will find out all this,” Parrikar told reporters in New Delhi.
> 
> The Defence Minister said he does not suspect the leak to be 100 per cent since a lot of final integration lies with India.
> 
> *READ*: All you need to know about the Navy’s stealth weapon
> 
> *What’s the nature of the data*
> 
> The data that has been leaked is reported to have details like specifications of the torpedo launch system, speed and condition needed for using the periscope and functioning of the above-water and underwater sensors. According to the report, the data tells the submarine crew where on the boat they can speak safely to avoid detection by the enemy.
> 
> PTI said over 4,000 pages on the submarine’s combat management system are among the leaked information.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indian Navy’s first Scorpene submarine of project 75 is seen after being undocked from Mazagon Docks Ltd, a naval vessel ship building yard, in Mumbai. (Express Photo by Ganesh Shirsekar)
> *Source of the leak*
> 
> “The Australian” report claimed the data was most probably leaked not from India but from DCNS in France as it also includes separate confidential DCNS files on plans to sell French frigates to Chile and the French sale of the Mistral-class amphibious assault ship carrier to Russia. Since these projects of the DCNS have no link to India, there is high probability that the data files were removed from the company in France.
> 
> But DCNS implied that the leak might have occurred at India’s end, rather than from France.
> 
> “Uncontrolled technical data is not possible in the Australian arrangements,” the company said.
> 
> *Also read*: Will probe leak, says DCNS
> 
> *“Multiple and independent controls exist within DCNS to prevent unauthorised access to data and all data movements are encrypted and recorded. In the case of India, where a DCNS design is built by a local company, DCNS is the provider and not the controller of technical data,” the company said.*
> 
> The data on the submarine was written in France for India in 2011 and is suspected of being removed from France in that same year by a former French Navy officer who was at that time a DCNS subcontractor.
> 
> “The data is then believed to have been taken to a company in Southeast Asia, possibly to assist in a commercial venture for a regional navy. It was subsequently passed by a third party to a second company in the region before being sent on a data disk by regular mail to a company in Australia…It is unclear how widely the data has been shared in Asia or whether it has been obtained by foreign intelligence agencies,” the report said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Fears in Australia*
> 
> There are fears in Australia surrounding the security of data on the future fleet of its own Navy. French company DCNS had won the bid to design the new fleet of Australian $50 billion submarines.
> 
> Australian Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull said it was important to note the submarine DCNS was building for India was a completely different model to the one it will build for Australia and the leaked information was a few years out of date, PTI reported.
> 
> “Nevertheless, any leak of classified information was a concern,” he was quoted as saying. The newspaper also said the company has assured Australia that the leak it has suffered in connection with the Indian submarines would not happen in the case of that country.
> 
> _(With inputs from PTI)_
> 
> 
> http://indianexpress.com/article/in...ine-data-leak-indian-navy-dcns-facts-2993755/




The highlighted portion has no bearing on determining the source of leak. The whole data for Scorpene would have been generated in France (where it was designed) not India, and would have passed whole ecosystem of DCNS before being handed over to Mazgaon docks.

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## Blue Marlin

BON PLAN said:


> Yes.
> Agosta is a 70' tech. Even the last version (90B used by ****) don't have the "skipjack" hull.
> The nose for exemple isn't as pure as a Scorpene one : less effective, more noisy.
> View attachment 328458
> 
> 
> Scorpene is a 2000' tech.


it must be ancient im surprised it moves. heck the last sub was ln service only 10 years.
im guessing the lower acoustic signature, increased diving depth, improved battery range and performance. Greater automation and the crew to be reduced from 54 to 36. that means nothing to you lot?
@Rashid Mahmood is the 90b 70's tech ?

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## SrNair

Most probably a corporate war.Leak is from France and it seems well planned.
French need to find the source otherwise DCNS reputation and business will seriously damaged

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## Roybot

Blue Marlin said:


> the japanese may still be buthurt but now happy and making quiet visits to australia to push them in favour of the japs.
> but it wont happen.
> and the Germans will be like, what a coincidence and the Russians wouldn't care



Japanese? I d put my money on the Germans, they were the most hurt for losing the Australian contract.

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## Shankranthi

DCNS has shot itself and its clients in the foot and now they are blaming the 'competition'.  

I do not think too many people around the word would buy that story.

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## PARIKRAMA

*Source based News - Part 1*
_Some information has come out from the emergency meeting held on this topic_

Indian Navy Chief in the high profile emergency meeting have stated

Prelim analysis suggests No operational capability is compromised
The leak documents looks like operational manual of 2011
Present trials have upgraded the manuals and many parts changed/modified with local indian parts.
Many systems and subsystems have been upgraded beyond the first version of the operational manual
No key frequencies are leaked. They are 2 levels above the "restricted" classification.
Chief wants a Indian official to visit DCNS office in France to probe and find the source of the leak in their side.
He asserted that we should have more scorpenes as they are vital for our Under Water capability.
DM MP has updated PM NaMo and have advised caution bcz of the nature of India France cooperation in Aircrafts, Submarines, Missiles, Nuclear energy, Clean energy/solar power, civilian investments and smart city projects. He has requested a senior person to have a discussion with French government on this.

+++
@Vergennes @MilSpec @Abingdonboy @Spectre @anant_s @Nilgiri @hellfire @all others

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## Spectre

PARIKRAMA said:


> No key frequencies are leaked. They are 2 levels above the "restricted" classification.



This is the key thing. If DM can state this in Parliament then I am good..

Doesn't mean, DCNS gets off the hook - they must be penalized but National Security wise I am relieved.

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## PARIKRAMA

Spectre said:


> This is the key thing. If DM can state this in Parliament then I am good..
> 
> Doesn't mean, DCNS gets off the hook - they must be penalized but National Security wise I am relieved.


I am sure he will make a statement in the floor of the parliament but will say probe/investigation is also ordered and floor will be updated on this.

I am sure DCNS will be taken to task away from public eyes.. and this will be done via French government..

Imagine the situation .. Prez elections there in 2017. This is a huge political blow out bcz Prez Hollande is banking on defence contract achievements for a show of strength that economy and employment is taken care of properly. Its for sure they will play it down and find "someone" and say leak is plugged.. But in all probability for continuous support of India there will be some compromise and bargaining...

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## A_Poster

PARIKRAMA said:


> @dadeechi
> 
> Here is what our good friends from congress are saying.. enjoy the muck being thrown.. suddenly its another political slug fest,,,
> 
> *TIMES NOW* ‏@TimesNow  1h1 hour ago
> Nat'l security gravely compromised with shocking leaks of specifications of Scorpene submarine: Cong #ScorpeneLeak
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *TIMES NOW* ‏@TimesNow  1h1 hour ago
> Nearly 22400 pages were leaked, of Project 75,carrying emblem of Indian Navy. This is biggest disaster in recent times: Cong #ScorpeneLeak
> 
> TIMES NOW ‏@TimesNow  1h1 hour ago
> This leak has put question mark on India's maritime security. It has jeopardised the initiative to build 6 Scorpene subs:Cong #ScorpeneLeak
> 
> 
> *TIMES NOWVerified account*‏@TimesNow
> The cost of the 6 submarines cost US$ 3.5 billion. These are currently being built at Mumbai: Randeep Surjewala #ScorpeneLeak
> 
> *TIMES NOW* ‏@TimesNow  45m45 minutes ago
> Despite this blunder, which has hurt our def preparedness, explanation of Modi's Def Min is that it is a case of hacking: Cong #ScorpeneLeak
> 
> *TIMES NOW* ‏@TimesNow  45m45 minutes ago
> Defence Minister & Indian Navy are saying the leak is possibly from a source outside India: Randeep Surjewala #ScorpeneLeak
> 
> TIMES NOW ‏@TimesNow  43m43 minutes ago
> Defence Minister, Modi Govt & Navy are engaged in an operation to cover up instead of fixing responsibility: Randeep Surjewala #ScorpeneLeak
> 
> *TIMES NOW* ‏@TimesNow  43m43 minutes ago
> Navy & Defence Min continue to speak in a conflicting voice. One calls it hacking, other calls it a leak: Randeep Surjewala #ScorpeneLeak
> 
> TIMES NOW ‏@TimesNow  42m42 minutes ago
> Govt has gone on overdrive to say that these leaks have not compromised the operation capabilities: Randeep Surjewala #ScorpeneLeak
> 
> TIMES NOW ‏@TimesNow  41m41 minutes ago
> The French company have issued a statement hinting that they leak happened in India: Randeep Surjewala #ScorpeneLeak
> 
> TIMES NOW ‏@TimesNow  41m41 minutes ago
> They said multiple & independent controls exist to prevent unauthorised access to data & all data movements are encrypted:Cong #ScorpeneLeak
> 
> TIMES NOW ‏@TimesNow  40m40 minutes ago
> In the case of India, DCNS is provider not controlling of data. Clearly hinting that the leak happened in India: Cong #ScorpeneLeak
> 
> TIMES NOW ‏@TimesNow  41m41 minutes ago
> With a 7500 km coastline to defend, with 14 subs, it appears Modi Govt is living in denial vis-a-vis security of India: Cong #ScorpeneLeak
> 
> TIMES NOW ‏@TimesNow  40m40 minutes ago
> This alarming situation requires complete security of the audit of Min of Defence. This can only establish the source: Cong #ScorpeneLeak
> 
> TIMES NOW ‏@TimesNow  40m40 minutes ago
> Such a leak cannot be found by simply calling it hacking. Can they do so without conducting an inquiry?: Cong #ScorpeneLeak
> 
> TIMES NOW ‏@TimesNow  39m39 minutes ago
> It is intriguing how clean chits are being meted out without the matter event being looked at by anybody: Cong #ScorpeneLeak
> 
> TIMES NOW ‏@TimesNow  39m39 minutes ago
> What steps has the Modi Govt taken to ensure that this info has not already gone into the hands of the hostile nations: Cong #ScorpeneLeak
> 
> 
> I am sure he will make a statement in the floor of the parliament but will say probe/investigation is also ordered and floor will be updated on this.
> 
> I am sure DCNS will be taken to task away from public eyes.. and this will be done via French government..
> 
> Imagine the situation .. Prez elections there in 2017. This is a huge political blow out bcz Prez Hollande is banking on defence contract achievements for a show of strength that economy and employment is taken care of properly. Its for sure they will play it down and find "someone" and say leak is plugged.. But in all probability for continuous support of India there will be some compromise and bargaining...



Congress would be so praying for leak to have originated from Indian side.

+ I do not think defence contracts play any role in elections of any country.

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## NKVD

Leaked documents about French naval contractor DCNS' Scorpene submarines appear to be neither critical nor confidential, a source close to the matter said on Wednesday.

"It seems to be sensitive information but appears neither critical nor confidential," the source told Reuters on condition of anonymity.



(Reporting by Cyril Altmeyer; writing by Michel Rose; editing by Richard Lough)

http://in.reuters.com/article/franc...CN10Z1CH?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=Social


@PARIKRAMA @Nilgiri @Abingdonboy


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/768414305658298369

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/768382119340969984

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## PARIKRAMA

NKVD said:


> Leaked documents about French naval contractor DCNS' Scorpene submarines appear to be neither critical nor confidential, a source close to the matter said on Wednesday.
> 
> "It seems to be sensitive information but appears neither critical nor confidential," the source told Reuters on condition of anonymity.
> 
> 
> 
> (Reporting by Cyril Altmeyer; writing by Michel Rose; editing by Richard Lough)
> 
> http://in.reuters.com/article/franc...CN10Z1CH?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=Social
> 
> 
> @PARIKRAMA @Nilgiri @Abingdonboy


I said it here




https://defence.pk/threads/sensitiv...submarines-leaked.445677/page-14#post-8608841


It would be nice if we can keep it together there..

@waz @WAJsal @WebMaster 
Can you merge this thread with the main thread
https://defence.pk/threads/sensitive-data-of-indian-navy’s-scorpene-class-submarines-leaked.445677/

also pls merge this as well
https://defence.pk/threads/frances-dcns-does-not-rule-out-economic-war-after-documents-leak.445780/

Regards,

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## anant_s

PARIKRAMA said:


> He asserted that we should have more scorpenes as they are vital for our Under Water capability.



I hope he is referring to numbers beyond 6 on order.

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## PARIKRAMA

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Source based News - Part 1*
> _Some information has come out from the emergency meeting held on this topic_
> 
> Indian Navy Chief in the high profile emergency meeting have stated
> 
> Prelim analysis suggests No operational capability is compromised
> The leak documents looks like operational manual of 2011
> Present trials have upgraded the manuals and many parts changed/modified with local indian parts.
> Many systems and subsystems have been upgraded beyond the first version of the operational manual
> No key frequencies are leaked. They are 2 levels above the "restricted" classification.
> Chief wants a Indian official to visit DCNS office in France to probe and find the source of the leak in their side.
> He asserted that we should have more scorpenes as they are vital for our Under Water capability.
> DM MP has updated PM NaMo and have advised caution bcz of the nature of India France cooperation in Aircrafts, Submarines, Missiles, Nuclear energy, Clean energy/solar power, civilian investments and smart city projects. He has requested a senior person to have a discussion with French government on this.
> 
> +++
> @Vergennes @MilSpec @Abingdonboy @Spectre @anant_s @Nilgiri @hellfire @all others



Continuing from earlier post quoted above

*Source based information - part 2*
Some More information from a very senior Indian Navy official who is briefing IN Chief on continuous basis based on hourly analysis of the data leaked..

Classification of information leaked is non catastrophic.
Most important things which are not compromised includes Radiated Noise Pattern or Acoustic Signature
The acoustic signature is recorded and added to own library only after
extensive sea trials
after performing successfully radiated noise spectrum analysis under different standard conditions

Minor changes which occurs in every operation to operation includes Sonar Frequency and ELF LF Communication frequency both are not compromised.
He has confirmed no tactical advantage is lost on any encounter on sea condition to IN chief and the same is briefed to DM MP 
@Vergennes @MilSpec @Abingdonboy @Spectre @anant_s @Nilgiri @anant_s @hellfire @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @randomradio @Shankranthi @others

tagging you to sven @Olaf One-Brow - you can give better insights on this..

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## salarsikander

Shankranthi said:


> Cost. Reputation. Risk. Quality.


Add to that industrial capacity, Know-How, Know- what, ETC ETC

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## Hellfire

@PARIKRAMA Welcome news. I feel that the unnecessary media coverage of our counter intelligence efforts within armed forces was the biggest mistake. With civil establishment getting a chance to intervene, things have taken a serious hit

On a personal note:

Please don't post any Congress related post on defence .... it is not only hypocritical on their part but also sickening. They effectively stalled the perspective plan 2020.

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## NKVD

_*"I understand there has been a case of hacking," said Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar. "We will find out what has happened. Navy sources said they are confident that the leak took place "outside India", that the documents appear to show different configurations than what was finalized for India, and stressed that "the damage does not seem to be substantial" even as analysts suggested that's not correct.*_

Ship maker DCNS said in a statement that French national security authorities are investigating the size, seriousness and cause of the leak, which, it said, could be part of "an economic war" with competitors who it beat for a massive $38 billion contract in Australia.


x


"*There is India, Australia and other prospects, and other countries could raise legitimate questions over DCNS. It's part of the tools in economic war," said a spokesperson for DCNS quoted by news agency Reuters.








http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/top-...scorpene-submarine-leaked-says-report-1449447*

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## Hellfire

@NKVD restricted is open source .. thank god if the leak is of restricted nature. Problem would have been of Confidential and above

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## PARIKRAMA

hellfire said:


> @PARIKRAMA Welcome news. I feel that the unnecessary media coverage of our counter intelligence efforts within armed forces was the biggest mistake. With civil establishment getting a chance to intervene, things have taken a serious hit
> 
> On a personal note:
> 
> Please don't post any Congress related post on defence .... it is not only hypocritical on their part but also sickening. They effectively stalled the perspective plan 2020.


DOne my good friend.. edited the post ..

and yes our media is going bonkers.. Its becoming a flashing news and everybody is up in arms to say Scorpenes have become "junk" for us. That coming from a country where not even one proper defence reporter is there in the first place.. and most of them are under envelope based relationship for multiple vendors ,,, writing colored viewpoints..

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## NKVD

hellfire said:


> @NKVD restricted is open source .. thank god if the leak is of restricted nature. Problem would have been of Confidential and above


First of all Due think OEM will Transfer ultra classified Data to client So early

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## Hellfire

PARIKRAMA said:


> DOne my good friend.. edited the post ..
> 
> and yes our media is going bonkers.. Its becoming a flashing news and everybody is up in arms to say Scorpenes have become "junk" for us. That coming from a country where not even one proper defence reporter is there in the first place.. and most of them are under envelope based relationship for multiple vendors ,,, writing colored viewpoints..




You put my thoughts into words ... Antaryaami!!!!!!!!

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## salarsikander

PARIKRAMA said:


> DOne my good friend.. edited the post ..
> 
> and yes our media is going bonkers.. Its becoming a flashing news and everybody is up in arms to say Scorpenes have become "junk" for us. That coming from a country where not even one proper defence reporter is there in the first place.. and most of them are under envelope based relationship for multiple vendors ,,, writing colored viewpoints..


Regardless, It shouldn't have happened in first place. I believe India has upper hand here in twisting frenchies aram for possible discounts or any other arrangements. This is the best time as a customer to present their genuine concern. 

Off-Topic question. The manual in question that has been released online contains all the operational parameters of the subm In that case when RFI is sent, say for instance MMRCA, does the vendor provide all technical parameters of the jet that could potentially jeopardise its capacity during war ? If not, then how does the buyer ( AF) would judge it ?

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## Hellfire

NKVD said:


> First of all Due think OEM will Transfer ultra classified Data to client So early




Clearly you missed my point.

In any governmental organisation related to defence, classification of documents is as under (using simple language):

1. Restricted - not to be shown to any and everyone who is not concerned with the department. Accessible to all personnel in the department,

2. Confidential - Any officer or equivalent rank can hold the document

3. Secret - only Deputy Director, Colonel, Captain (IN), Group Captain and above can hold it

4. Top Secret

That is why, my quip

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## jha

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/768407026426843136

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## punit

PARIKRAMA said:


> The trail is longer surely.. but its a target for both India and australia.. tbh barracuda shares limited similarity to scorpenes.. so Australia is not affected much other than loss of reputation and credibility of DCNS
> India suffers much more owing to the second assembly line and future cooperation which will now be played by yellow journalism articles.. The case of Dassault being costly and DCNS being a source of leak will be played so much that finally opposition and the whole masses will say maintain freeze over underwater fleet expansion.
> 
> In one shot the end loser is whom - Australia no contract signed till date
> or India where everything from one line to second for parallely 5 sub production to all cooperation everything goes up the smoke..
> 
> connect the dots you will see the big picture.. Finally a new war is now initiated against India in a big way...


problem is not that of manual getting leaked ..problem is what else have been leaked and what can be leaked. Can be trust the french !

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## jha

Another one..


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/768341391281762304

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## NKVD

Im Praying these Stupid Politician don't get mess up 

as Far MDL chief say Project goes on as Plan

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## Taygibay

@ A_Poster salarsikander Nilgiri & PariK 
Can't comment.​

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## BON PLAN

*Dear friends,

We need to stay calm!

The new has just one day. 
It takes a little time to know right from wrong. By cons already 16 pages of messages .... Ouahhh!

The secret level of the data is the lowest existing in France. Nothing decisive should be there. Frequency transmission can be turn. encryption systems can be changed or set differently. The periscope operating speed is not very strategic! The max depth is already known by a 50m margin I'm sure (Chilean or Malaysian crew speak when on stopover).

I'll even be positive rather: is it not better to be aware that there have been leaks and take corrective action (that may be unnecessary) than to know nothing at all about these leaks?

Finally I find it amazing that a document stolen in 2011 put out for 5 years ....

The fact remains that this is unfortunate for DCNS and France. 
I think there is a "task force" in France to clarify the case. 
Perhaps we'll not know everything, especially if there is another power in the maneuver, and even more if it's a friendly power ...*

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## Hellfire

BON PLAN said:


> *Dear friends,
> 
> We need to stay calm!
> 
> The new has just one day.
> It takes a little time to know right from wrong. By cons already 16 pages of messages .... Ouahhh!
> 
> The secret level of the data is the lowest existing in France. Nothing decisive should be there. Frequency transmission can be turn. encryption systems can be changed or set differently. The periscope operating speed is not very strategic! The max depth is already known by a 50m margin I'm sure (Chilean or Malaysian crew speak when on stopover).
> 
> I'll even be positive rather: is it not better to be aware that there have been leaks and take corrective action (that may be unnecessary) than to know nothing at all about these leaks?
> 
> Finally I find it amazing that a document stolen in 2011 put out for 5 years ....
> 
> The fact remains that this is unfortunate for DCNS and France.
> I think there is a "task force" in France to clarify the case.
> Perhaps we'll not know everything, especially if there is another power in the maneuver, and even more if it's a friendly power ...*




Absolutely. Much ado about nothing so far. Lets keep fingers crossed no more skeletons come tumbling out

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## PARIKRAMA

hellfire said:


> Absolutely. Much ado about nothing so far. Lets keep fingers crossed no more skeletons come tumbling out


my friend did you see keyboard warriors posting stuff... mind boggling really..

_These subs are dud now.. Any ship with minimum sonar can destroy these..
India must be the only country where Indians sell these kind of sensitive data so freely... Unbelievable...

22000 plus pages mean everything from metallurgy of the hull to the number of latrines has been compromised.

BULL SHEET hit the fan!!! This Scorpene sub purchase is a TOTAL WASTE now- as both Pak and Chinese Navies can VERY easily track and attack and kill-off IN Scorpenes now!! We will need to change all the electronics sub-assemblies and systems to Russian and DRDO ones next and, sell-off on open market all DCNS electronics from these Scorpenes! What a waste of tax-payers money folks!! Bloody French Govt only did this as revenge since we are delaying Rafale purchase.. Next, just go in for the Super Advanced New Kilo Russian class subs and HDW subs I say people!! Use Scorpenes just close to Indian shores....

Completely Scorpene SECRETE REVEALED. French builder is responsible for this..india should cancel entire tender or can convert into BARRACUDA subs..

OMG. What is the Indian Govt doing about this. It looks the French are deliberately peddling the secrets of the Indian submarines to further their sale of the Scorpean subs to other Asian countries. This so called middle level officer may have easily sold it to the Chinese for a price. That means that Pakistan also has this information.

India may cancel extra 3 scorpene submarines construction.finally these submarines can be used against pakistan....not china ....became valueless..scorpene out of P-75I...This thing might be happened in Australia..becuz Chinese have more spy inspection on this US alley..

_
after reading it .. i realise how posters here are much better informed than these sample pieces.. and talk about media channels.. the news reports make it sound that a video audio gps location of the scorpene, its crew is given out in 4G network in a cellphone.. talk about idiotic levels..

Need coffee.. my mistake i read all these comments to ascertain and understand if ppl really understand what is going on..

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## Archie

I don't know
But somehow I smell corruption on part of DCNS in Winning the Australian Tender

38 Billion USD is a huge amount to pay for just 12 SSKs
No matter how much advanced they are

Considering the fact that India paid 3 Billion USD for 6 Scorpene class SSK
While Australia will pay nearly 3.2 Billion USD for just 1 SSK each

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## Hellfire

@PARIKRAMA where did you read this amount of .... er ... intellectually numbing content? And, my respects, you had the patience!!!!

@PARIKRAMA You deserve a good cup of Narasu's finest!
or is it LavAzza Amodo Mio?

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## nair

PARIKRAMA said:


> my friend did you see keyboard warriors posting stuff... mind boggling really..
> 
> _These subs are dud now.. Any ship with minimum sonar can destroy these..
> India must be the only country where Indians sell these kind of sensitive data so freely... Unbelievable...
> 
> 22000 plus pages mean everything from metallurgy of the hull to the number of latrines has been compromised.
> 
> BULL SHEET hit the fan!!! This Scorpene sub purchase is a TOTAL WASTE now- as both Pak and Chinese Navies can VERY easily track and attack and kill-off IN Scorpenes now!! We will need to change all the electronics sub-assemblies and systems to Russian and DRDO ones next and, sell-off on open market all DCNS electronics from these Scorpenes! What a waste of tax-payers money folks!! Bloody French Govt only did this as revenge since we are delaying Rafale purchase.. Next, just go in for the Super Advanced New Kilo Russian class subs and HDW subs I say people!! Use Scorpenes just close to Indian shores....
> 
> Completely Scorpene SECRETE REVEALED. French builder is responsible for this..india should cancel entire tender or can convert into BARRACUDA subs..
> 
> OMG. What is the Indian Govt doing about this. It looks the French are deliberately peddling the secrets of the Indian submarines to further their sale of the Scorpean subs to other Asian countries. This so called middle level officer may have easily sold it to the Chinese for a price. That means that Pakistan also has this information.
> 
> India may cancel extra 3 scorpene submarines construction.finally these submarines can be used against pakistan....not china ....became valueless..scorpene out of P-75I...This thing might be happened in Australia..becuz Chinese have more spy inspection on this US alley..
> 
> _
> after reading it .. i realise how posters here are much better informed than these sample pieces.. and talk about media channels.. the news reports make it sound that a video audio gps location of the scorpene, its crew is given out in 4G network in a cellphone.. talk about idiotic levels..
> 
> Need coffee.. my mistake i read all these comments to ascertain and understand if ppl really understand what is going on..



Enjoy ur coffee....... let the dust settle down..... Then we shall discuss

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## PARIKRAMA

hellfire said:


> @PARIKRAMA where did you read this amount of .... er ... intellectually numbing content? And, my respects, you had the patience!!!!



http://idrw.org/frances-dcns-says-india-submarine-data-leak-may-economic-warfare/
http://idrw.org/leaked-data-genuine...ealth-element-former-navy-chief-arun-prakash/
http://idrw.org/french-submarine-builder-massive-leak-scandal-australian-leaked-documents-inside/
http://idrw.org/scorpene-data-leak-india-seek-report-french-shipbuilder/


Read at own risk..

Other forums dont cover much on this.. all are quiet.. frankly most are silent readers here but at least posting some descent information..

i actually like @Aero effort to try and dispel such rumour mongering and coloring efforts.. But then the comments section is really awesome..



hellfire said:


> @PARIKRAMA
> 
> @PARIKRAMA You deserve a good cup of Narasu's finest!
> or is it LavAzza Amodo Mio?


not exotic... simple one

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## Hellfire

@PARIKRAMA will risk a peek to have a tickle.

If you head south to chennai ever try narasu instant, good brew. Recommended by non alcohol consuming coffee addict - I.

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## BON PLAN

Archie said:


> I don't know
> But somehow I smell corruption on part of DCNS in Winning the Australian Tender
> 
> 38 Billion USD is a huge amount to pay for just 12 SSKs
> No matter how much advanced they are
> 
> Considering the fact that India paid 3 Billion USD for 6 Scorpene class SSK
> While Australia will pay nearly 3.2 Billion USD for just 1 SSK each


3 billion $ was the budget for Scorpene if I remember well. The final amount is higher.

And it's not 38 billion $ far Australia, but 38 billions € ... = 50 billions A$ ! 
On these the french part is presented by french newspaper to be 8 billions. Half of the total would be the american part (it seems huge) . The rest is for Australia work.

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## PARIKRAMA



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## Ankit Kumar 002

Opened Twitter , saw Scorpene Ramayan , random brain farts commenting anything and everything...

I am really sad, MDL had undergone a capacity addition , and we were on the verge of building 2-3 submarines each year from a single line....

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## GuardianRED

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> Opened Twitter , saw Scorpene Ramayan , random brain farts commenting anything and everything...
> 
> I am really sad, MDL had undergone a capacity addition , and we were on the verge of building 2-3 submarines each year from a single line....


yes That really sucks with each random dude adding some additional farts!

Now hope the statement from the IN and the MoD (have they release any statement?) would calm this down for everyone including our yellows friends and then business as usual! (hope it doesn't do an agustawestland ie. some yellow joker and pop a article and back to sq. one)

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## proud_indian

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To VIKRAM GUHA: The data that's supposedly been 'leaked' are ALL marketing presentations given by DCNS & THALES. Such presentations are always classified RESTRICTED, meaning they are commercial proprietary data. All they do is specify the guaranteed operating parameters which the OEM stands by. Those pages also reveal that this documentation was in the possession of IN HQ, & not with MDL, which concerns itself only with production/manufacturing data pertaining to the hull. Data on the SUBTICS CMS is also not sensitive as the Pakistan Navy's 3 Agosta 90B SSKs also use SUBTICS. The PDF also reveal that while some documents originated from DCNS, others originated from THALES. All in all, these were just part of a marketing presentation, that's all.

The documentation that will be classified as 'SECRET' or 'TOP SECRET' has not yet been drafted. Such documentation will be available ONLY AFTER the first Scorpene SSK completes her sea-trials & the supervising IN crew begins the process of writing the user manuals, which will be completely different from the manuals written by the navies of Chile, Malaysia & Brazil, simply because the operating conditions vary from sea to sea, ocean to ocean. Therefore, I will not be too concerned about the prospects of this 'leak' compromising national security in any manner. 

Of course now a whole bunch of broadcast TV journalists will go to town making a mountain out of an ant-hill, & several retired IN officers will have their short-lived moments of glory by belching out illogical & ill-informed soundbytes of the type that were belched out WRT the 2 Fincantieri-made fleet tankers. But in reality, do rest assured that this 'leak' is by no stretch of imagination an event that will make the heavens fall.

August 24, 2016 at 5:22 PM

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## Gregor Clegane

Leaked Scorpene papers won't affect stealth and operational capabilities: Indian Navy
24 August, 2016 19:36 IST

New Delhi: The Indian Navy said on Wednesday the leaked documents on the Scorpene submarine not impact its stealth and operational capabilities as the details are “old” and that the vessel’s “signature” will be known only once it heads for the open sea.
The documents from DCNS, the French company that designed the boats being built in India, were leaked, triggering fear that it may compromise the stealth aspect of the submarine.
“Details in the leaked documents regarding Scorpene submarine are not valid because the signature can be known only once the boat goes to sea,” an Indian Navy source said, adding that the specifications mentioned in the document are hypothetical.
*“The signature of boats of the same class can also be different. It also depends on the metallurgy, temperature and salinity, geographical location and other factors,” the source said.*
The Navy, nonetheless holds the leak as an issue of concern.
“The documents should not have been leaked, but there is nothing to be alarmed about,” said the source.
The allegedly leaked information related to Scorpene submarines has presentations and technical manuals of the boat, including details like the acoustic signature, noise level and radiated noise of the boat.
Sources from the Naval Headquarters, where the documents are being analysed, however said that the document, one of which is dated January 2011, is old.

http://www.abplive.in/india-news/le...wont-affect-stealth-aspect-indian-navy-404088

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## PARIKRAMA

@Gregor Clegane 
Can you please post it in the other thread here and collate all information under one thread..

@waz @WAJsal 
Can you please merge this here

https://defence.pk/threads/sensitive-data-of-indian-navy’s-scorpene-class-submarines-leaked.445677/

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## Gregor Clegane

@Abingdonboy @anant_s @Taygibay
@Picdelamirand-oil @Vergennes
@randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @MilSpec
@Koovie @Echo_419 @Dash @hellfire @ito
@SR-91 @AMCA @DesiGuy1403 @ranjeet
@hellfire @fsayed @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ
@nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90
@Sergi @Water Car Engineer @dadeechi
@kurup @Rain Man @kaykay @Joe Shearer
@Tshering22 @Dandpatta @danger007
@Didact @Soumitra @SrNair
@TejasMk3@jbgt90 @ranjeet @4GTejasBVR
@The_Showstopper @guest11 @egodoc222
@Nilgiri @SarthakGanguly @Omega007
@GURU DUTT @HariPrasad @JanjaWeed
@litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular
@Spectre@litefire @AMCA
@Perpendicular@Ryuzaki @CorporateAffairs
@GR!FF!N @migflug @RISING SUN @amardeep mishra
@Levina@SvenSvensonov  @-xXx-
@Perpendicular @proud_indian @Mustang06
@Param @Local_Legend @Ali Zadi @hellfire
@egodoc222 @CorporateAffairs @Major Shaitan Singh @jha @SmilingBuddha
@#hydra# @danish_vij @[Bregs] @Skillrex
@Hephaestus @SR-91 @Techy @litefire @R!CK @zebra7 @dev_moh @DesiGuy1403
@itachii @nik141993 @Marxist @Glorino
@noksss
@jbgt90 @Skull and Bones
@Kraitcorp @Crixus @waz @WAJsal @Oscar
@Blue Marlin @jhungary @AugenBlick @Star Wars @GuardianRED @arp2041 @Aero
@Penguin @PARIKRAMA @others

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## -xXx-

@PARIKRAMA 

No matter what may come out of DCNS or Indian navy, we can not trust them fully now. I do not expect them to accept the true damage done. May or may not be, but scepticism will be on higher side.

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## Hellfire

@Gregor Clegane suggest do as @PARIKRAMA has suggested. A thread is already running. Delete and collate there.

Thanks

@PARIKRAMA your #248, seems French have taken it to their heart. It is great to see a quick response and seriousness in the issue on French side.

The French were the only other country than Russia which stood by us in every war and post Nuclear Testing scenario. Unfortunately, Indian members are not aware of the level of confidence we have in our partnership with them, irrespective of the economic aspects of it.

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## PARIKRAMA

Nice...
Well..





https://defence.pk/threads/sensitive-data-of-indian-navy’s-scorpene-class-submarines-leaked.445677/page-15#post-8608841





https://defence.pk/threads/sensitive-data-of-indian-navy’s-scorpene-class-submarines-leaked.445677/page-15#post-8608929

Hail Hillary

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## SrNair

cerberus said:


> If read correctly the leak is done on French part during these details were written in 2011 by sub contractor as per news paper
> 
> I don't think it blue prints its over exaggerated
> Or Internal sabotage for Australian deal which is whopping 50 billion $ by rival Firms and lobbies



This was exactly the target .
French should have been more careful when they won that whopping 39billion$ Australian deal
DCNS rivals is happened to be one of the top notch weapons developers from most powerful nations .MMRCA is in negotiations and Scorpene deal is in final stage ,DCNS also won a lots of deal including this Australian program .Rivals know when they completes all this project, DCNS and parent nation France would become too strong .
@Vergennes

Oh dear ,key board warriors in PDF knows better than the end user Indian Navy .

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## Levina

PARIKRAMA said:


> This is a clear case of poor attempt to drag a company to score brownie points (Anti Turnbull group) and use DCNS and India names to glorify the case and grab eyeballs.. Thats my assessment after going through the prelim data ..


I read that this could be devastating for India, malaysia and chile which plan to use these subs. Those pages would allow one to understand everything about the submarines like its speeds,noise produced, the speeds the mast can be raised at etc.

On twitter a lot of people have been pointing at a common factor between #AgustaScam and #ScorpeneLeak - PRANAB MUKHERJEE.

what do you guyz think?

@Abingdonboy

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## PARIKRAMA

hellfire said:


> your #248, seems French have taken it to their heart. It is great to see a quick response and seriousness in the issue on French side.
> 
> The French were the only other country than Russia which stood by us in every war and post Nuclear Testing scenario. Unfortunately, Indian members are not aware of the level of confidence we have in our partnership with them, irrespective of the economic aspects of it.



Rafales, Scorpenes, Shortfin, Mistrals, Tankers, Airbus A330s, Naval Tankers, Kaveri Engine, JV colloborations, Space Colloborations, Solar projects, Smart cities... The Jaitapur Nuclear power project.. The list is much longer

Leave everything else.. look at the amount of A320 Neo ordered by IndiGo and GoAir..

Its something that every country wants to get a pie of.. Thats India France relationship.. 62% of DCNS is with french government.. There is no way French government will let such a leak spoil India France relationship.. There will be swift response from both countries to restore confidence to each side.. 

You will see soon DM MP and IN chief come out in full force to show their faith and confidence and French state giving full support

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## nair

PARIKRAMA said:


> Nice...
> Well..
> View attachment 328544
> 
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/sensitive-data-of-indian-navy’s-scorpene-class-submarines-leaked.445677/page-15#post-8608841
> 
> View attachment 328543
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/sensitive-data-of-indian-navy’s-scorpene-class-submarines-leaked.445677/page-15#post-8608929
> 
> Hail Hillary



Let us not forget the leaked document has close to 22000 pages..... Which cannot be a marketing presentation alone.....

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## SrNair

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Source based News - Part 1*
> _Some information has come out from the emergency meeting held on this topic_
> 
> Indian Navy Chief in the high profile emergency meeting have stated
> 
> Prelim analysis suggests No operational capability is compromised
> The leak documents looks like operational manual of 2011
> Present trials have upgraded the manuals and many parts changed/modified with local indian parts.
> Many systems and subsystems have been upgraded beyond the first version of the operational manual
> No key frequencies are leaked. They are 2 levels above the "restricted" classification.
> Chief wants a Indian official to visit DCNS office in France to probe and find the source of the leak in their side.
> He asserted that we should have more scorpenes as they are vital for our Under Water capability.
> DM MP has updated PM NaMo and have advised caution bcz of the nature of India France cooperation in Aircrafts, Submarines, Missiles, Nuclear energy, Clean energy/solar power, civilian investments and smart city projects. He has requested a senior person to have a discussion with French government on this.
> 
> +++
> @Vergennes @MilSpec @Abingdonboy @Spectre @anant_s @Nilgiri @hellfire @all others



Then the nations that purchased the first versions with fully French parts should be very careful .
Their subs are totally compromised .
I think IN now will source more Indian equipments for further modifications. 

But indirectly this gives us another advantage .We will get a clear upperhand in our dealings with French

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## NKVD

Just Watch NDTV Debate Except Congress Manish tewari and his Chap Nidhi razdan
All Experts Including are Acting Mature



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/768482021026979840


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/768480214619938816


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/768480508846145536
@PARIKRAMA *Most Interesting Part Which I was Mentioning Said by RetD Admiral K Raja Menon, Ex-Vice Chief of Navy Staff (Operations)*



*Each Submarine has each type of noise has a unique pattern, which can differ with speed, depth, and water conditions*
*Second Point he Raised about Frequencies which is Frequencies can be altered and changed nevertheless frequencies Of Wartime are Different *
*Most his Points Were what we had Expected and Already discussed*

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## Hellfire

PARIKRAMA said:


> Rafales, Scorpenes, Shortfin, Mistrals, Tankers, Airbus A330s, Naval Tankers, Kaveri Engine, JV colloborations, Space Colloborations, Solar projects, Smart cities... The Jaitapur Nuclear power project.. The list is much longer
> 
> Leave everything else.. look at the amount of A320 Neo ordered by IndiGo and GoAir..
> 
> Its something that every country wants to get a pie of.. Thats India France relationship.. 62% of DCNS is with french government.. There is no way French government will let such a leak spoil India France relationship.. There will be swift response from both countries to restore confidence to each side..
> 
> You will see soon DM MP and IN chief come out in full force to show their faith and confidence and French state giving full support



Thanks for "*Indo-French Relationship 101 for Dummies Made Easy*" 

A great summation by @PARIKRAMA for all those who want the shortened version of the faith and trust in between the two nations. The relationship is very old. One can dredge up the instances of the relationship right till an independent India.



SrNair said:


> Then the nations that purchased the first versions with fully French parts should be very careful .
> Their subs are totally compromised .
> I think IN now will source more Indian equipments for further modifications.
> 
> *But indirectly this gives us another advantage .We will get a clear upperhand in our dealings with French*



Damn, are you in marketing/business?

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## R!CK

Just a personal thought. If china could hack into US database and steal information on F-22 and F-35, who here thinks other countries including India or France is immune to cyber espionage? I'm in no way justifying DCNS, this is a serious security lapse but you just cant stop a very dedicated data theft. We have this discussion only because this topic came up in an Australian daily which has rival interests in their submarine acquisition decision. If the data was stolen in 2011 and for 5 long years no-one knew about it, doesn't it make it obvious that such stolen data can stay under the radar for years or sometimes forever?

People getting frantic about this news, please be patient until we realize the actual value of data lost and how relevant it is to present day. And before we question a whole country's (France) integrity, why don't we realize this happens all over the world and not many things are out in open for common people to know? What about MMRCA files being found on the street in India? Should all F-35 customers cancel their orders because supposedly China stole most of its data?

http://thediplomat.com/2015/01/new-snowden-documents-reveal-chinese-behind-f-35-hack/

http://www.livemint.com/Politics/U1...-found-by-the-roadside-Govt-orders-probe.html

Manuals usually runs into several thousand pages and not all sections contains data of significant relevance. If the data lost is incase very sensitive, we may request for compensation and put a hold on further Scorpene follow-on orders. But people should stop linking this to Rafale or Barracuda. Personally I'd say data is never safe, cause computers can be hacked and people can be bribed? If patriotic Indians want to say none of our officials accept bribes, Fine! But reality disagrees. Single advice, Patience is bitter but its fruit is sweet. Please be patient until we get more information before we start bashing the French. DCNS is just one of many corporates in France.

Good Day all!

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## SrNair

hellfire said:


> Thanks for "*Indo-French Relationship 101 for Dummies Made Easy*"
> 
> A great summation by @PARIKRAMA for all those who want the shortened version of the faith and trust in between the two nations. The relationship is very old. One can dredge up the instances of the relationship right till an independent India.
> 
> 
> 
> Damn, are you in marketing/business?



Nope .In Engineering field 
Now French need to spend more energy to convince us .

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## Hellfire

SrNair said:


> Nope .In Engineering field
> Now French need to spend more energy to convince us .



Off Topic

Start your own business, you will wrangle a mean deal ....

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## Srinivas

The leaks are unfortunate and a blow to DCNS and end users.

But I think some changes can be made to the end product to make it stealthier and lethal.

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## PARIKRAMA

NKVD said:


> @PARIKRAMA *Most Interesting Part Which I was Mentioning Said by RetD Admiral K Raja Menon, Ex-Vice Chief of Navy Staff (Operations)*
> 
> 
> 
> *Each Submarine has each type of noise has a unique pattern, which can differ with speed, depth, and water conditions*
> *Second Point he Raised about Frequencies which is Frequencies can be altered and changed nevertheless frequencies Of Wartime are Different *
> *Most his Points Were what we had Expected and Already discussed*



He is basically validating the points i said here..

The first point is the acoustic signature which is recorded after extensive sea trials under different set conditions (speed, depth, sea state etc) and finally added to our IFF library post spectrum analysis. 

and second point is the communication frequencies in LF/ELF zone which changes as per operations....

i said the same here






Its good Menon Sir is validating what source said.. at least now we know we are on the right path..



nair said:


> Let us not forget the leaked document has close to 22000 pages..... Which cannot be a marketing presentation alone.....


No sir its not marketing presentations.. its this




and pages like this





Some rapid pointers
M- manual
TM- technical manual
OIM - Operational Information Manual
PM - Programme Manual
02- Version written by primary OEM
Onboard Documentation, 

Thats why i said its "restricted" to authorized personnel but mostly its Manual only

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## SrNair

hellfire said:


> Off Topic
> 
> Start your own business, you will wrangle a mean deal ....

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## sohailbutt1987

Here goes the rafale deal!


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## egodoc222

We can kiss good bye to additional scorpenes....even scrap the last two may be!!


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## The SC

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> I smell happiness at TKMS headquarters lol
> 
> But the said leak, @PARIKRAMA how does it affect the operations? Meaning is there any chance which will make the Kalavari more vulnerable?
> 
> For a moment if say China does obtain details about its diesel engines , or some special design features , will it affect Scorpenes here ?
> 
> Personally thinking No. Scorpenes fulfill the coastal defence role perfectly and we will eventually have a dozen of them for coastal operations.
> 
> Australians will be having a bigger problem.Paying 50+ Billion USD , yet no guarantee that their best submarines details will be safe.
> 
> 
> Coming back , the Kalavari as of today and some time down the line will be quite different from the Scorpene w.r.t. communication equipment, surveillance equipment , weapons and AIP.
> 
> 
> But I really see Germans and Russians taking a respite.
> 
> On our side a comprehensive audit about capabilities after the leak should be carried out by Navy , and a investigation by MoD.


According to *The Australian*, pretty much the entire combat capabilities have been compromised. Here is just a sampler:







In brief and ccording to the Aussies, the entire combat capabilities of the subs have been compromised!


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## SmilingBuddha

All you folks are gems, twitter was trending scorpene leaks all day .
Thank god we have so many sane posters to put our minds in ease. French are in a bit of trouble, this is a great time to hold hands and further improve confidence in our relations.Too bad most journos in rest of India don't even come close to folks here.
I feel the french are having a pretty bad year with all the attacks, let's not make it any worse for them.

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## PARIKRAMA

*Leaked documents on Scorpène-class submarine and its implication on the Indian Navy*

Suresh Bangara Aug 24, 2016 23:03 IST

Manohar Parrikar undocked the fully-fitted, first of its class, Project 75 submarine. It is scheduled to be commissioned in September 2016 after mandatory sea trials. The project, as per the contract with the French shipbuilders DCNS, had already suffered many slippages in delivery schedules and (in naval parlance) is astern of the original intent of expeditious delivery to address the force-level shortages of diesel-electric submarines.

The earlier attempt at Mazagaon Docks to build the German origin, state-of-the-art submarine – designed by HDW – had to be terminated in the late 1980s owing to the allegation of corruption in the deal. The Indian Navy was deprived of a well-established production line when the political decision, more of a knee-jerk reaction, was taken to terminate it. The costly investment in infrastructure and technical manpower was thus wasted. The opportunity cost of terminating this prestigious project can be best summed up with the idiom, "cut off your nose to spite your face" because the cost was exorbitant, to put it mildly.





Representational image. Reuters

Even though the Soviets stepped in to supply the EKM submarines to bolster the depleting force levels, a 30-year build programme which was approved at the end of 1990s was to ensure that our build capacity was augmented by creating the necessary infrastructure and technical manpower in two indigenous yards. Inordinate delays in executing the plan resulted in Mazagaon Docks speeding up the construction of much-delayed Scorpene. The other is yet to take off.

This is the backdrop against which the today's leaked documents need to be viewed.

_The Australian_ newspaper which broke the story of the leak has carefully redacted the sensitive data contained in the leaked documents, keeping in mind the advice of military and legal experts. A few pages sourced by Firstpost confirm that the redaction has been professionally carried out. Whether it covers the whole document of over 20,000 pages is yet to be ascertained. Responsible and ethical reportage makes it incumbent on newspapers to blank out those parts which might otherwise have undesirable geopolitical implications. Australia too is on the threshold of building submarines with similar assistance. They ought to know the implications of this action.

*With regards to the sensitive data, acoustic signatures and 'cavitation appearance' are indeed closely-guarded secrets with the shipbuilder being its sole custodian. The builder creates a data bank based on simulated and empirical studies which are carried out over a long duration. The customer, in turn, can hold him accountable for such data that needs to be proved during sea trials. Hence the actually recorded and analysed data during sea trials would be more valuable than what is stated in documents. Tactically, a submarine has many options to deceive sonars by masking its radiated noise. Hence the impact of such a disclosure (authentic or not) depends on the quality of submarining. Indian submariners have decades of experience on both Western and Eastern origin submarines.*

*As far as the timing of this leak is concerned, the competitors of the second line of production are the biggest gainers. It means billions of dollars worth of business at a time when both economy and employment are at a critical stage.* *It is not that the defence ministry would terminate orders on DCNS, which would be another folly of even greater proportions if they do, but the second line of production is round the corner. Builders from East and West are possibly salivating on the quantum of order.*

The very nature of this leak of over 22,000 pages makes it amenable to hacking. Considering that we are not a fully-wired society, it is unlikely that any single in-house source would have all such data on a single but networked computer. This could have also been hacked from those original equipment manufacturers (OEMs) in Europe who were associated with this project. We can at best speculate at this stage.

*Is it critical for operations? Most of the pages, as would be the case in any documentation, would consist of data which is common to all builders. With the operational profile being common to all submarines, it is likely that factors related to the detection of the submarine from ship, airborne or a hunter-killer submarine, are critical to operations. But this is the raison d'être of the submarine arm. Experienced submariners know how to avoid detection*.

Furthermore, the data on weapons, whether torpedoes or missiles, are well known to all submariners. The greatest advantage that we have is that our submariners have for decades operated both Western and Eastern origin submarines and have learnt to innovate when required.

Recent reports suggest that the choice of torpedoes, which is the primary weapon, has not been finalised. In the existing case, it has turned out to be an advantage as the torpedoes are the main weapon of submarines and this leaked document pertains to discussions held in 2011.

*The navy needs more submarines to address the depletion of conventional units. Delays caused by events like these ought not to result in further reduction in force levels.*

Parikkar's statement this morning is noteworthy for its sobrie

http://www.firstpost.com/india/leak...s-implication-on-the-indian-navy-2974788.html

++ and this


*'Project 75 Has Been Leaked': The Night Navy Discovered Scorpene News*
All India | Written by Sudhi Ranjan Sen | Updated: August 24, 201

NEW DELHI: It was midnight and the phone of senior Navy officer posted at the Naval Headquarters wouldn't stop ringing. "The Australian has published a report claiming details of Project 75 (the official name for the submarine project) have been leaked," the caller said.

Minutes later, after the report was read on phone, the Chief of Navy Staff Admiral Sunil Lanba was informed.

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar, who was simultaneously informed by separate channels, immediately asked the Navy for a damage assessment and the possible place of the leak.

This morning Mr Parrikar told reporters "We knew about this last night". But what he left unsaid was the flurry of activity that took place through the night.

*Within an hour, all hands were at the deck at the South Delhi office from where Project 75 is monitored.

A section of officers were pouring over the original document of the Scorpene submarine and comparing them with the ones put out by The Australian. Others were tasked to check which officers had accessed the document and where the documents had moved to look for possible place of leak.*

*Simultaneously, the cyber experts of the Indian Navy - considered one of the best - stationed across the nation were on a dual job: Looking for traces of leak from computers in India and the cyber trail of the documents put out by the newspaper.*

In Mumbai, a similar exercise was underway at the Mazagaon docks - the shipyard constructing the submarines.

The multiple checks ran through the night. In the morning, bleary-eyed officers were allowed to go home, shower and shave.

Within the hour, they were back at their desks.

*The initial investigation report, short and factual, was placed before the Defence Minister - who was in his office by 10 am after attending a function despite being up till 4 in the morning.*

*A meeting of the Cabinet Committee on Security -the highest body in the country headed by the Prime Minister, which decides on security issues - was expected to take up the issue by afternoon.*

As Mr Parrikar left for the CCS, he asked the Navy to issue the first official communication, which said documents had not leaked from India. The cyber experts who had worked through the night, told the ministry that the cyber trail of the leaked papers didn't originate from India.

*Soon after he returned from the CCS meeting, the Chief of Naval Staff again briefed Mr Parrikar. It was a longer briefing -- on the possible fallouts of the leak.*

The Navy's conclusion did not change from the initial assessment it had given the Ministry.

*Mr Parrikar was told that India had signed the deal with M/s Aramis and not DCNS. M/s Armaris was bought by DCNS subsequently. The leaked documents showed they were from DCNS. The minister was also told that the specifications in the leaked documents didn't match.*

*"The basic shape, structure (of the submarines) like its height etc remains the same, but several modifications are made to suit our requirements. To put it in simple terms, the computer programme Windows has some basic similarities but Windows of 2007 and 2010 differ hugely," a senior officer associated with the exercise told NDTV. *

By late evening, Mr Parrikar and the Navy sat down again. The Navy reiterated that all checks pointed to an overseas leak and the damage, if any, was minimal. *The Minister asked the Navy to shoot a query to the French manufacturer DCNS to ascertain the leak and come back to India.*

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/proj...corpene-news-1449914?pfrom=home-lateststories

+++
Nice.. so finally after all the mockery for last 24 hours slowly sanity is returning.. Interestingly, most of the points are here in this thread..

It shows We as a country need dedicated Defence Reporters who can understand, research and at least not get colored so easily..
This statement makes the point i tried making all through yesterday night.. 

*The navy needs more submarines to address the depletion of conventional units. Delays caused by events like these ought not to result in further reduction in force levels.*

thankfully its finally spoken by our media

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## kadamba-warrior

Vergennes said:


> @Nilgiri
> 
> 
> The highest authorities are investigating the case,but it seems like the datas were taken out of France in 2011 by a former Navy officer,that was back then a contractor for DCNS. The documents could have landed in some south east asia companies' hands before landing in Australia... So,everyone is implying that it's the indians that leaked all of this. @Blue Marlin
> 
> Investigations will tell everything.



India is not a South East Asian country so I don't quite understand how anybody can imply that it was Indians that leaked it while also clearly stating that "the datas were taken out of France in 2011 by a former Navy officer,that was back then a contractor for DCNS".

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## CorporateAffairs

proud_indian said:


> *Sensitive Data of Indian Navy’s Scorpene Class Submarines Leaked*
> 
> *Abhilash Mallick*
> Yesterday, 11:18 pm
> 
> A leak, which runs to 22,400 pages and seen by _The Australian_, details the entire secret combat capability of the six Scorpene-class submarines being built for the Indian Navy by French shipbuilder Direction des Constructions et Armes Navales (DCNS).
> ​The documents were marked *“Restricted Scorpene India”*. The DCNS documents detailed the most sensitive combat capabilities of India’s new $3 billion submarine fleet and would provide an intelligence bonanza if obtained by India’s strategic rivals, such as Pakistan or China.
> ​_The Australian_ has chosen to redact some of the sensitive information from the documents in the report published by it.
> 
> Any stealth advantage for the navy’s new submarines would be gravely
> compromised if data on its planned combat and performance capabilities was leaked.
> 
> The leaked DCNS data details the secret stealth capabilities of the six new Indian submarines, including what frequencies they gather intelligence at, what levels of noise they make at various speeds and their diving depths, range and endurance — all sensitive information that is highly classified.
> ​The documents also include instructions to the submarine crew on where on the boat they can speak safely to avoid detection by the enemy. It also discloses magnetic, electromagnetic and infra-red data as well as the specifications of the submarine’s torpedo launch system and the combat system.
> 
> It details the speed and conditions needed for using the periscope, the noise specifications of the propeller and the radiated noise levels that occur when the submarine surfaces.
> 
> The data seen by _The Australian _includes 4,457 pages on the submarine’s underwater sensors, 4,209 pages on its above-water sensors, 4,301 pages on its combat management system, 493 pages on its torpedo launch system and specifications, 6,841 pages on the sub’s communications system and 2,138 on its navigation systems.
> 
> The Indian Navy has boasted that its Scorpene submarines have superior stealth features, which give them a major advantage against other submarines.
> ​DCNS yesterday sought to reassure Australians that the leak of the data on the Indian Scorpene submarine would not happen with its proposed submarine for Australia. The company also implied — but did not say directly — that the leak might have occurred at India’s end, rather than from France.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The first Scorpene was supposed to be delivered in September 2016. (Photo: Reuters)
> ​“In the case of Australia, and unlike India, DCNS is both the provider and in-country controller of technical data for the full chain of transmission and usage over the life of the submarines.”
> 
> However, _The Australian _has been told that the data on the Scorpene was written in France for India in 2011 and is suspected of being removed from France in that same year by a former French Navy officer who was at that time a DCNS subcontractor.
> The data is then believed to have been taken to a company in Southeast Asia, possibly to assist in a commercial venture for a regional navy.
> 
> The data seen by _The Australian _also includes separate confidential DCNS files on plans to sell French frigates to Chile and the French sale of the Mistral-class amphibious assault ship carrier to Russia. These DCNS projects have no link to India, which adds weight to the probability that the data files were removed from DCNS in France.
> 
> https://www.thequint.com/india/2016...rines-for-indian-navy-leaked-france-australia




This is actually leaked during Anti National Congress rule. Check this out:

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## Ali Zadi

Thanks @PARIKRAMA but I cant exactly believe that the impact of the leak is minimal, I mean even if there have been modifications the base parameters would remain similar/same.

For example the noise signature intensity.

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## kadamba-warrior

CorporateAffairs said:


> This is actually leaked during Anti National Congress rule. Check this out:
> 
> View attachment 328595



So far, there is nothing to suggest that Indians were involved in the leak - be it during UPA or NDA.

On the contrary, the initial reports suggest the leak happened at the DCNS end. But anyway, he needs to lay off and stop politicizing the issue!

It is also amazing how Indians (both in the government and outside, both the informed and the uninformed) are so eager to downplay the leaks and give French the clean chit when they should atleast wait till the investigations are complete and talk to the French about damages and perhaps use the opportunity to further drive bargains _even if there was nothing substantial leaked_!

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## R!CK

The information in the files seems to be really basic and general in nature for all scorpenes in use by all customers. Precise parameters are only collected during sea trials which could vary for each submarine. Since the data was lost on 2011, there is no way it is very precise in nature since sea trials only began this year. It might not be a huge national security issue as the media is trying to make it look like. Just my understanding of the topic.

Good day!

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## PARIKRAMA

kadamba-warrior said:


> talk to the French about damages and perhaps use the opportunity to further drive bargains _even if there was nothing substantial leaked_!









https://defence.pk/threads/sensitive-data-of-indian-navy’s-scorpene-class-submarines-leaked.445677/page-3#post-8606374

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## Nilgiri

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Source based News - Part 1*
> _Some information has come out from the emergency meeting held on this topic_
> 
> Indian Navy Chief in the high profile emergency meeting have stated
> 
> Prelim analysis suggests No operational capability is compromised
> The leak documents looks like operational manual of 2011
> Present trials have upgraded the manuals and many parts changed/modified with local indian parts.
> Many systems and subsystems have been upgraded beyond the first version of the operational manual
> No key frequencies are leaked. They are 2 levels above the "restricted" classification.
> Chief wants a Indian official to visit DCNS office in France to probe and find the source of the leak in their side.
> He asserted that we should have more scorpenes as they are vital for our Under Water capability.
> DM MP has updated PM NaMo and have advised caution bcz of the nature of India France cooperation in Aircrafts, Submarines, Missiles, Nuclear energy, Clean energy/solar power, civilian investments and smart city projects. He has requested a senior person to have a discussion with French government on this.
> 
> +++
> @Vergennes @MilSpec @Abingdonboy @Spectre @anant_s @Nilgiri @hellfire @all others



Thanks for update brother. Slap on the face for all those jumping to "the end is nigh" conclusions.

Will wait for official statement in parliament and whatever final DCNS statements are given on the matter.

OMG the continued posts by some people baying for scorpene blood is just hillarious.....cant they not READ what parikrama has taken a good long time to post in detail???? and what I and others were saying from the start?!?!?!

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## monitor

*The $3.5 Billion Leak: Scorpene Submarines Exposed, India Assesses Damage*
All India | Reported by Vishnu Som (with inputs from Agencies) | Updated: August 24, 2016 18:15 IST










Six Scorpene submarines are being built near Mumbai as part of a deal with French shipbuilder DCNS.

*New Delhi: *
*Highlights*

Secret combat capability of 6 Scorpene submarines leaked
Submarines being built in Mumbai for $3.5 billion with French firm
Navy says leak happened "outside India", France investigating
Highly sensitive details on what makes six submarines being built in Mumbai so crucial for India's security have been leaked, triggering an investigation to determine the extent to which one of the world's largest defense projects has been compromised.

More than 22,000 pages list the combat capabilities and other information on the Scorpene submarine and excerpts have been released by The Australian newspaper.

The Scorpenes, being built for 3.5 billion dollars at the state-run Mazagon shipyard, are considered some of the most advanced of their class in the world. They are so silent underwater that they are extremely difficult, if not impossible to detect. But now their sonar capabilities, the noise they generate and details of the combat system they are armed with are totally exposed.





A screenshot of one of the pages of the leaked dossier on India’s Scorpene-class submarine

"I understand there has been a case of hacking," said Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar. "We will find out what has happened. Navy sources said they are confident that the leak took place "outside India", that the documents appear to show different configurations than what was finalized for India, and stressed that "the damage does not seem to be substantial" even as analysts suggested that's not correct.

Ship maker DCNS said in a statement that French national security authorities are investigating the size, seriousness and cause of the leak, which, it said, could be part of "an economic war" with competitors who it beat for a massive $38 billion contract in Australia.

"There is India, Australia and other prospects, and other countries could raise legitimate questions over DCNS. It's part of the tools in economic war," said a spokesperson for DCNS quoted by news agency Reuters.

The documents that have been released do not contain any details of the vessel being designed for the Australian fleet.





A daily accessed 22,400 leaked pages of classified data on India's Scorpene-class submarine. (File)

Submarines are considered the ultimate stealth weapon. Knowing how much sound a submarine makes underwater gives enemies the ability to know just where to look to detect the submarine. The sort of information that has been placed publicly is the stuff of a navy's nightmare.

India has a fleet of 13 ageing submarines, only half of which are operational at any time, opening up a major gap with China which is expanding its maritime presence in the Indian Ocean.

The first of the Scorpene class submarines being built in India, the INS Kalvari, took part in sea trials in May and is expected to go into service by the end of the year.






© Copyright NDTV Convergence Limited 2016. All rights reserved.


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## Nilgiri

PARIKRAMA said:


> Some More information from a very senior Indian Navy official who is briefing IN Chief on continuous basis based on hourly analysis of the data leaked..
> 
> Classification of information leaked is non catastrophic.
> Most important things which are not compromised includes Radiated Noise Pattern or Acoustic Signature
> The acoustic signature is recorded and added to own library only after
> extensive sea trials
> after performing successfully radiated noise spectrum analysis under different standard conditions
> 
> Minor changes which occurs in every operation to operation includes Sonar Frequency and ELF LF Communication frequency both are not compromised.
> He has confirmed no tactical advantage is lost on any encounter on sea condition to IN chief and the same is briefed to DM MP



Exactly what I predicted earlier. I'm on a roll wheee

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## monitor




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## Olaf One-Brow

PARIKRAMA said:


> Continuing from earlier post quoted above
> 
> *Source based information - part 2*
> Some More information from a very senior Indian Navy official who is briefing IN Chief on continuous basis based on hourly analysis of the data leaked..
> 
> Classification of information leaked is non catastrophic.
> Most important things which are not compromised includes Radiated Noise Pattern or Acoustic Signature
> The acoustic signature is recorded and added to own library only after
> extensive sea trials
> after performing successfully radiated noise spectrum analysis under different standard conditions
> 
> Minor changes which occurs in every operation to operation includes Sonar Frequency and ELF LF Communication frequency both are not compromised.
> He has confirmed no tactical advantage is lost on any encounter on sea condition to IN chief and the same is briefed to DM MP
> tagging you to sven @Olaf One-Brow - you can give better insights on this..



I can give you insight into what each of those signatures mean and how they can be used operationally and how they can be deadened.

I can't give you insight into this hack, unless I was part of it. I can give you insight into methods used to successfully perpetrate the hack or lockdown information to avoid future incidents.

I don't really know much about this particular case though... unless I do.

I know a lot about information security and submarines, probably more then anyone else on this forum, but this particular incident is not something I've looked into in any depth.

...

Here's a picture of me at work, just in case you were interested.









Spectre said:


> _PTI_ reports that leaked document covers a variety of details including the secret stealth capabilities of six new Indian submarines — including but not restricted to the
> 
> 1. *Frequencies at which they gather intelligence at, what noise they make at various speeds and their diving depths, range and endurance. *
> 
> 2. Safe zones on board the submarine where crew members can safely speak without fear of detection by the enemy.
> 
> 3. Vessel's underwater sensors (4,457), its above-water sensors (4,209),
> 
> 4. Combat management system (4,301),
> 
> 5. Navigation systems (2,138),
> 
> 6. Communications system (6,841)
> 
> 7. Torpedo launch system.



Some are concerning, some are not. The Torpedo launch system should be standard and the communication hard to intercept and the navigation rather standard too. Where noise comes from is less important then the fact that you're generating any in the first place, so I wouldn't worry about where the safe spots are either.

Sensors are what I'd worry about most. You don't want technical data about them leaked.

And neither about the combat management system. Remember, it's not just the sub's combat management system that's at risk if an adversary knows about it. By knowing data about that system and back tracing its origins, an adversary can target particular companies, military sectors or personal to glean even more data.

Like how attacks on the F-35 lead to additional attacks on supporting contractors.

It seems scary Spectre, but there are only a few points that I'd be truly worried about from an operational standpoint. From a security standpoint you need to lock that sh*t down!!

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## Nilgiri

Olaf One-Brow said:


> I can give you insight into what each of those signatures mean and how they can be used operationally and how they can be deadened.
> 
> I can't give you insight into this hack, unless I was part of it. I can give you insight into methods used to successfully perpetrate the hack or lockdown information to avoid future incidents.
> 
> I don't really know much about this particular case though... unless I do.
> 
> I know a lot about information security and submarines, probably more then anyone else on this forum, but this particular incident is not something I've looked into in any depth.
> 
> ...
> 
> Here's a picture of me at work, just in case you were interested.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some are concerning, some are not. The Torpedo launch system should be standard and the communication hard to intercept and the navigation rather standard too. Where noise comes from is less important then the fact that you're generating any in the first place, so I wouldn't worry about where the safe spots are either.
> 
> Sensors are what I'd worry about most. You don't want technical data about them leaked.
> 
> And neither about the combat management system. Remember, it's not just the sub's combat management system that's at risk if an adversary knows about it. By knowing data about that system and back tracing its origins, an adversary can target particular companies, military sectors or personal to glean even more data.
> 
> Like how attacks on the F-35 lead to additional attacks on supporting contractors.



cute tie, but i think polka dots are more "you"....

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## PARIKRAMA

Olaf One-Brow said:


> I can give you insight into what each of those signatures mean and how they can be used operationally and how they can be deadened.
> 
> I can't give you insight into this hack, unless I was part of it. I can give you insight into methods used to successfully perpetrate the hack or lockdown information to avoid future incidents.
> 
> I don't really know much about this particular case though... unless I do.
> 
> I know a lot about information security and submarines, probably more then anyone else on this forum, but this particular incident is not something I've looked into in any depth.
> 
> ...
> 
> Here's a picture of me at work, just in case you were interested.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some are concerning, some are not. The Torpedo launch system should be standard and the communication hard to intercept and the navigation rather standard too. Where noise comes from is less important then the fact that you're generating any in the first place, so I wouldn't worry about where the safe spots are either.
> 
> Sensors are what I'd worry about most. You don't want technical data about them leaked.
> 
> And neither about the combat management system. Remember, it's not just the sub's combat management system that's at risk if an adversary knows about it. By knowing data about that system and back tracing its origins, an adversary can target particular companies, military sectors or personal to glean even more data.
> 
> Like how attacks on the F-35 lead to additional attacks on supporting contractors.
> 
> It seems scary Spectre, but there are only a few points that I'd be truly worried about from an operational standpoint. From a security standpoint you need to lock that sh*t down!!



Damn u Sven.. u and foxy always gets to show off cuties.. BTW thats really a cute cat pic.. BTW why you dont use your main id?

On combat management system, i will throw in a spanner.. Well we have Subtics or submarine tactical integrated combat system in scorpenes.. And our friends in west also have the same in Agosta... Since our friends in West have these submarine and Combat System, its beyond doubt that our other friend across Himalayas would have got in and out of it already....

Going by that logic, Scorpene is compromised right from the day we signed contract 

and lets talk about hacking prowess.. First hand experiences of F35, C17 and what not more tells you right our friend can always find ways and means to get the data..

And yes from security point its from DCNS side where leak occurred.. But everything related to Scorpene in India must be locked down with additional security measures..

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## Olaf One-Brow

PARIKRAMA said:


> DBTW why you dont use your main id?



Same reason I never do when I come back for a week or two then leave again for months; security. I go through email addresses and passwords far to frequently. The downside of being affiliated with the military.

So when I leave the forum and my auto password updater updates my password automatically, randomly and to something I'm not likely to remember because it's usually a huge sequence and because I've deleted or updated my email address for security reasons and unable to reset the password and thus I'm locked out... again.



PARIKRAMA said:


> Going by that logic, Scorpene is compromised right from the day we signed contract



If you used our Aegis combat system, as noted here:

https://defence.pk/threads/lockheed...air-defence-system.437772/page-2#post-8437379

And here regarding US offers (Maybe. I'm doubtful of most news regarding US exports) to India:

https://defence.pk/threads/lockheed...air-defence-system.437772/page-4#post-8445290

We'd have a huge leg up on you because, as with Japan, South Korea, Australia, Spain and Norway, it'd be the exact same system we use... only we'd have access to goodies you don't like specialized codes that allow us to mod the software with additional baselines or specialized modules like Aegis BMD.

That logic holds true, if it isn't somewhat paranoid. If we built it, we can cause it problems. Even an Indianized version of Aegis with code built to support a specific version of Aegis tailored to Indian needs, say like Aegis integrated into MF-STAR, which is possible even though Aegis is used with variations of APY in all nations using Aegis (like SPY-1D, SPY-1F, SPY-3, SPY-4 and SPY-6).

If we built it, we have access to ways to screw with it.



PARIKRAMA said:


> and lets talk about hacking prowess.. First hand experiences of F35, C17 and what not more tells you right our friend can always find ways and means to get the data..



Hacking prowess? America? Nah, we have no such thing. We're terrible with hacking stuff.






Don't you mind that building. It's just our pudding storage facility. The government loves their pudding.



PARIKRAMA said:


> But everything related to Scorpene in India must be locked down with additional security measures..



If we want it we can get it. Russia and China too. Hack attacks and other forms of electronic intercepts are only one of a myriad of methods we've refined to gather information.

Not that we're interested or anything.



PARIKRAMA said:


> u and foxy always gets to show off cuties..



 Where's my Norge? I haven't talked to her in a while.

I think she's got a little girl now and I've got one a few months older. Add work into the mix and my wife being deployed on and off (it's less frequently now) and I just don't have time to annoy my Norge.



Nilgiri said:


> cute tie, but i think polka dots are more "you"....








So like this?

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## Rafi

Juicy, but not much that we haven't already collated from multiple sources.

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## Oldman1

A_Poster said:


> There is nothing dumb in what I stated.
> 
> I did not insinuate that USA had leaked the data. What I did was to make a conjecture that USA (its MIC) stands to gain most from this leak, irrespective of whether USA has a hand in this leak or not.



There is nothing to gain by the U.S. None at all. Think about it. The French are selling their subs to Australia which will be equipped with American combat system because they are using American weapons.

http://dcnsgroup.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/DCNS-SEA1000-Insert-FINAL_low-res.pdf

France is offering the Australian Government complete access to the stealth technologies utilised
on board French nuclear-powered general-purpose attack submarines (SSNs) and ballistic missile
submarines (SSBNs).
These technologies are the “crown jewels” of French submarine design and have never been offered to
any other country. The very nature of these stealth technologies and the decision to release them to
the Australian Government is a significant demonstration of the strategic nature of this program for the
French authorities.
The United States will be responsible for supplying integrated combat systems to the Future
Submarines, as well as the submarine’s weapons.
The collaboration between Australia, France and the United States will see DCNS providing design,
technology and expertise within this sovereign framework.

You know what I think


A_Poster said:


> There is nothing dumb in what I stated.
> 
> I did not insinuate that USA had leaked the data. What I did was to make a conjecture that USA (its MIC) stands to gain most from this leak, irrespective of whether USA has a hand in this leak or not.



You know who would benefit this? It would be the Germans who was bidding and lost and didn't know why.

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## Abingdonboy

Rafi said:


> Juicy, but not much that we haven't already collated from multiple sources.


You wish.



sohailbutt1987 said:


> Here goes the rafale deal!


How exactly? Other than, "becasue France"?



egodoc222 said:


> We can kiss good bye to additional scorpenes....even scrap the last two may be!!


Indians and their dramatic tendancies....


@PARIKRAMA thanks for the detailed updates bro, you are a real asset. I wish you could become India's single source for defence related news, the hacks that try to pass for "defence journalists" in India are not just dissapointingly bad but downright dangerous in these kind of situations where one needs to be very technically minded and able to understand a nuanced picture. 

@Vergennes @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN eagerly awaiting the French Govt/DCNS response to this (beyond mere words). This IS economic warfare and we all know the French aren't ones to take such provocation lightly. There needs to be heads rolling...

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## Nilgiri

Abingdonboy said:


> thanks for the detailed updates bro, you are a real asset. I wish you could become India's single source for defence related news, the hacks that try to pass for "defence journalists" in India are not just dissapointingly bad but downright dangerous in these kind of situations where one needs to be very technically minded and able to understand a nuanced picture.



hear hear! I am glad that he is at least posting here.....I seriously dont have the patience to deal with these folk like he does.

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## Abingdonboy

Nilgiri said:


> hear hear! I am glad that he is at least posting here.....I seriously dont have the patience to deal with these folk like he does.


Neither do I! I honestly avoid most "defence reports" from the so-called hacks who have the audacity to call themselves "defence journalists" in India and the comments section of such articles are a big NO NO. I just can't handle the level of stupidity and ignorance on display in such sections by entirely ill-informed members of the public.

I understand that by virtue of being members of sites such as this we are a minority and would likely be classed as "defence enthusiasts" but I could forgive the ignorance (to a degree). What is most frustrating/infuriating is that many are blatently ignorant to defence matters but spout out nonsense prescribing utter cr@p as though they are experts. Reading through this sort of thing is not good for my long term health.

There is a very toxic combination of an ignorant (and beligerant) population in India with a media that does a total disservice to their nation/people and does not correct such issues but further feeds the BS cycle.

Luckily, right now the GoI/MoD is being run by hard-headed rational induviduals but we have already seen what happens when you put in weak-willed and selfish clowns into such positions of power (blanket blacklisting and unilateral cancelling of contracts during their delivery stage).

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## Nilgiri

Abingdonboy said:


> Neither do I! I honestly avoid most "defence reports" from the so-called hacks who have the audacity to call themselves "defence journalists" in India and the comments section of such articles are a big NO NO. I just can't handle the level of stupidity and ignorance on display in such sections by entirely ill-informed members of the public.
> 
> I understand that by virtue of being members of sites such as this we are a minority and would likely be classed as "defence enthusiasts" but I could forgive the ignorance (to a degree). What is most frustrating/infuriating is that many are blatently ignorant to defence matters but spout out nonsense prescribing utter cr@p as though they are experts. Reading through this sort of thing is not good for my long term health.
> 
> There is a very toxic combination of an ignorant (and beligerant) population in India with a media that does a total disservice to their nation/people and does not correct such issues but further feeds the BS cycle.
> 
> Luckily, right now the GoI/MoD is being run by hard-headed rational induviduals but we have already seen what happens when you put in weak-willed and selfish clowns into such positions of power (blanket blacklisting and unilateral cancelling of contracts during their delivery stage).



It just disturbs me how many in this thread were talking like they knew the minutest detail of what was leaked....even when I pointed out to them that they have no idea what a standard manual often covers.

I have put even more people in my riffraff bucket now as a result.....people I previously thought were more rational and strictly evidence-based.

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## Abingdonboy

Nilgiri said:


> It just disturbs me how many in this thread were talking like they knew the minutest detail of what was leaked....even when I pointed out to them that they have no idea what a standard manual often covers.
> 
> I have put even more people in my riffraff bucket now as a result.....people I previously thought were more rational and strictly evidence-based.


This is what really pi$$es me off about desis, they are sooo quick to jump to conclusions and once their opinion is formed they will cling to it despite the presence of contradictory FACTS.

It's a very childish trait .


Many other cultures are more considered and rational and in the absence of facts/ a clear picture will adopt a "wait and watch" approach before forming their opinions.

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## jaunty

We should neither exaggerate nor downplay it at this point. Let's wait for the official investigation report. On the face of it, this does look like a major crisis but only a proper investigation would reveal how much of the leaked data is really sensitive and classified. But regardless, there is going to be a trust deficit which will be tough to overcome.

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## Indrajit

Too many people here are making light of/dismissing consequences of the leak and are almost taking a frivolous attitude towards this. This matter is of a serious nature requiring deep examination. If there are some 20,000 + pages that are in know of _The Australian_, it stands to reason that one cannot assume that the entire leak is limited to just that. We know about the leak only because it is in the hands of a newspaper, hostile intelligence agencies are not about to show their hand openly. We can hope for the best but must assume the worst.

MoD statements must be taken with a pinch of salt. No one is about to announce for public consumption even if they have been deeply cut by this. Almost everything that will now be put out will involve some spinning to control the narrative. To pronounce with certainty that all this amounts just to a storm in a tea cup is, to put it simply, very foolhardy. Need to proceed with circumspection, as I have said earlier, assuming the worst.

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## GuardianRED

Inderjit said:


> Too many people here are making light of/dismissing consequences of the leak and are almost taking a frivolous attitude towards this. This matter is of a serious nature requiring deep examination. If there are some 20,000 + pages that are in know of _The Australian_, it stands to reason that one cannot assume that the entire leak is limited to just that. We know about the leak only because it is in the hands of a newspaper, hostile intelligence agencies are not about to show their hand openly. We can hope for the best but must assume the worst.
> 
> MoD statements must be taken with a pinch of salt. No one is about to announce for public consumption even if they have been deeply cut by this. Almost everything that will now be put out will involve some spinning to control the narrative. To pronounce with certainty that all this amounts just to a storm in a tea cup is, to put it simply, very foolhardy. Need to proceed with circumspection, as I have said earlier, assuming the worst.



Assuming the Worst is Ak Anthony territory - and we ended up with the Infamous Agustawestland so called Scam. - Its been 4 year ? anything? just alot of finger pointing and blaming game and an air chief marshal name being dragged through the dirt + 3 frames with Advance systems collecting enough dirt to make a burial!.

No one here is just dismissing this lighty NOR are we hair pulling for the sake of it. People also fail to forget that the subsystems of any sub can be modified anytime. Only One hull is complete and in sea trials and based on those very trials, what snags and defects or positives (sorry lost of thought) can be incorporated, in the rest of it.

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## BON PLAN

SrNair said:


> Then the nations that purchased the first versions with fully French parts should be very careful .
> Their subs are totally compromised .


NO.
If a possible opponent knows how discreet your subs are, it will be less adventurous.



egodoc222 said:


> We can kiss good bye to additional scorpenes....even scrap the last two may be!!


how deep is your reflection ..... 
it is sad.

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## PARIKRAMA

http://pib.nic.in/newsite/PrintRelease.aspx?relid=149220

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## Indrajit

GuardianRED said:


> Assuming the Worst is Ak Anthony territory - and we ended up with the Infamous Agustawestland so called Scam. - Its been 4 year ? anything? just alot of finger pointing and blaming game and an air chief marshal name being dragged through the dirt + 3 frames with Advance systems collecting enough dirt to make a burial!.



The Augusta Westland deal was soaked in corruption & even the Italians agreed on that, odd to see you use that. Nothing so-called about that scam.



> No one here is just dismissing this lighty NOR are we hair pulling for the sake of it. People also fail to forget that the subsystems of any sub can be modified anytime. Only One hull is complete and in sea trials and based on those very trials, what snags and defects or positives (sorry lost of thought) can be incorporated, in the rest of it.



The leak is still a serious matter, I was merely pointing out that what is publicly known of the leak is not necessarily the full extent of the damage. This is not about what can be done to mitigate the known/unknown damage, it is with reference that we now have a serious issue at hand with plenty for DCNS to answer and MoD has a major issue with what to do with this.


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## thesolar65

As a civilian all these sounds like sanskrit to me. If I were Chinese and Pakistani and with these 22000 pages with me, my blood pressure would have risen to higher level. What now? what am I going to do with these? What if the adversary does not have any of these specification? My entire effort will be down the drain. Just like India, India's adversaries who have got those papers must be feeling the tension also.

The best way to test it : Make a trip to SCS without any announcement to a Vietnam port, take pictures and come back and make a trip to Karachi harbour also!!

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## GuardianRED

Inderjit said:


> The Augusta Westland deal was soaked in corruption & even the Italians agreed on that, odd to see you use that. Nothing so-called about that scam.



Like i said - so called scam with no one attested or charged with plenty of finger pointing and mud faced. For 4 years and counting! (Bet it will be 5 years soon - who is in?) 

The Italians arrested those people on corruption and money embezzlement on a no. of projects (NOT just the Indian Deal). They themselves haven't proved ANY concrete money Links to any INDIAN! lets along any politician! or don't u think they will splash this all over the news and somebody would be arrested no?

But hey , we all have faith in our Indian Agencies!


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## Ankit Kumar 002

thesolar65 said:


> As a civilian all these sounds like sanskrit to me. If I were Chinese and Pakistani and with these 22000 pages with me, my blood pressure would have risen to higher level. What now? what am I going to do with these? What if the adversary does not have any of these specification? My entire effort will be down the drain. Just like India, India's adversaries who have got those papers must be feeling the tension also.
> 
> The best way to test it : Make a trip to SCS without any announcement to a Vietnam port, take pictures and come back and make a trip to Karachi harbour also!!



If only that was possible , the present Anthony part 2 means our ships are without Helicopters, our half of already depleted submarine fleet is under repairs , and rest are extensively being used for more important duties.

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## Indrajit

GuardianRED said:


> Like i said - so called scam with no one attested or charged with plenty of finger pointing and mud faced. For 4 years and counting! (Bet it will be 5 years soon - who is in?)
> 
> The Italians arrested those people on corruption and money embezzlement on a no. of projects (NOT just the Indian Deal). They themselves haven't proved ANY concrete money Links to any INDIAN! lets along any politician! or don't u think they will splash this all over the news and somebody would be arrested no?
> 
> But hey , we all have faith in our Indian Agencies!



Actually the Italians not only arrested but sentenced the top officials of Finmeccanica to jail precisely because of the Indian contract.



> *Finmeccanica’s ex-boss jailed for graft in Indian chopper deal *
> 
> * PTI, Milan/New Delhi*
> |
> Updated: Apr 09, 2016 00:41 IST
> 
> Italian defence and aerospace major Finmeccanica’s former chief Giuseppe Orsi has been sentenced by the Milan appeals court to 4.5 years in jail for false accounting and corruption over the sale of 12 VVIP choppers to India for Rs 3,600 crore.
> 
> In the ruling, which overtured a previous court order of 2014, Bruno Spagnolini, the former CEO of Finmeccanica’s helicopter subsidiary AgustaWestland, was also handed a four-year prison term by the court yesterday.
> 
> The court found both guilty of corruption in relation to the sale of 12 helicopters to the Indian government and sentenced Orsi to a jail term of four and a half years, Italian news agency ANSA reported.



There was no way for this deal to stand. If the government had not scrapped it, the CAG would have roasted the government over hot coals. The Italian court convicted them for paying money on the Indian contract, whether you are able to prove who exactly got it here or not doesn't change the issue, they would not have paid the Chinese for the Indian contract.


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## Ankit Kumar 002

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/768728157356691456

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## egodoc222

BON PLAN said:


> NO.
> If a possible opponent knows how discreet your subs are, it will be less adventurous.
> 
> 
> how deep is your reflection .....
> it is sad.


What's sad is blatant negligence and security failure of dcns!!


----------



## GuardianRED

Inderjit said:


> Actually the Italians not only arrested but sentenced the top officials of Finmeccanica to jail precisely because of the Indian contract.
> 
> 
> 
> There was no way for this deal to stand. If the government had not scrapped it, the CAG would have roasted the government over hot coals. The Italian court convicted them for paying money on the Indian contract, whether you are able to prove who exactly got it here or not doesn't change the issue, they would not have paid the Chinese for the Indian contract.


Paying the Indian Contact? which they themselves haven't proved yet! 4 yrs running! 

+ we have seen the cancelling the contract has both us excellent rewards of re-tendering and cancelling any deal with any Italian company indefinitely ( Case and point the Black shark torpedo fiasco , though solved is still a long delay) 

let end it here - getting out of topic!


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## egodoc222

Abingdonboy said:


> You wish.
> 
> 
> How exactly? Other than, "becasue France"?
> 
> 
> Indians and their dramatic tendancies....
> 
> 
> @PARIKRAMA thanks for the detailed updates bro, you are a real asset. I wish you could become India's single source for defence related news, the hacks that try to pass for "defence journalists" in India are not just dissapointingly bad but downright dangerous in these kind of situations where one needs to be very technically minded and able to understand a nuanced picture.
> 
> @Vergennes @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN eagerly awaiting the French Govt/DCNS response to this (beyond mere words). This IS economic warfare and we all know the French aren't ones to take such provocation lightly. There needs to be heads rolling...


Why the generalisation?
In this case being dramatic is justified!!
Leak of sensitive documents is no small issue...
We don't know what other files got leaked?
What if they contain performance parameters or even worse what if they contain acoustic signatures of the sub?

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## PARIKRAMA

*Mismatch between leaked Scorpene info and specification model, say government sources*

*Top government sources say there is a mismatch between the papers available in public domain and the specification manual on which the boats are being made.*
New Delhi, August 25, 2016 | UPDATED 14:32 IST

*Primary analysis of the Navy on the Scorpene submarine information leak indicates that there is a mismatch between the papers available in public domain and the specification manual on which the boats are being made, top government sources said.*

The primary analysis report has been shared with Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar. *Claims have been made that 22,400 papers were leaked but actually only few papers are available in the open domain.*

*Though sources confirm that the leaked papers have similarity to one of the submarine versions discussed with the French naval contractor DCNS, many specifications were changed in the final version.*

*However, to avoid any chance, the Ministry of Defence has asked Navy to seek a detailed report on the leaked papers from DCNS. The matter will be taken up with DCNS through Ministry of External Affairs, the sources said.*

Meanwhile, the Mazagon Dock Limited (MDL), where the Scorpene submarines are being built, today said the data leak did not take place from its end and that it was assisting the Navy in the probe.

A day after the data leak on the capabilities of six highly advanced submarines being built for the Indian Navy in Mumbai in collaboration with a French company came to light, an MDL official said there were stringent norms at MDL on data security.

"We are helping Navy in the probe. We are certain the data leak was not from our side," an MDL official said.

Reacting to reports of the massive data leak, he added, "It needs to be verified if the leaked documents are authentic."

There are stringent norms at MDL on data security, the official said. MDL head Rear Admiral Rahul Shrawat was not available for comments.

French shipbuilder DCNS has provided technology for the Rs 23,562-crore project.

MDL is scheduled to deliver the first of the six submarines to the Indian Navy early next year and the remaining are likely to be delivered by 2020.

According to media reports, the documents running into 22,400 pages detail the combat capabilities of French-designed Scorpene-class submarines.

The combat capability of the scorpene submarines being built at Mazagon dock at a cost of USD 3.5 billion by French shipbuilder DCNS, went public when an Australian newspaper, "The Australian", put the details on the website.

Parrikar had yesterday ordered the Navy Chief to go into the "entire issue". A report is also being sought from DCNS.

"What I understand is there is a hacking. So we will find out all this," Parrikar had said.

_(With inputs from PTI)_

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/...arrikar-government-sources-navy/1/748502.html

@Abingdonboy @Nilgiri @anant_s @Vergennes @Ankit Kumar 002 
Good we have involved local MIC to make subsystems in Scorpene and thus its a far more customised edition than plain vanilla one..

Its inline with whatever i have posted before.. Thats why whatever we build in India it should be custom edition with technology transfer and localisation.

Any plain vanilla product can be compromised but with TOT and local MIC to customize the product as a whole, we can bring small, significant and incremental changes which makes it a whole new system and enables us to have some extra safety cushion against cyber and economical espionage.

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## GuardianRED

egodoc222 said:


> Why the generalisation?
> In this case being dramatic is justified!!
> Leak of sensitive documents is no small issue...
> We don't know what other files got leaked?
> What if they contain performance parameters or even worse what if they contain acoustic signatures of the sub?


*"acoustic signatures" - example of us indians Being Dramatic!*

How can acoustic signatures of sub be leaked EVEN before the sub is finished being built or haven't had sea trails

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## Nilgiri

egodoc222 said:


> Why the generalisation?
> In this case being dramatic is justified!!
> Leak of sensitive documents is no small issue...
> We don't know what other files got leaked?
> What if they contain performance parameters or even worse what if they contain acoustic signatures of the sub?



Son, do you work in defence industry?


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## PARIKRAMA

http://www.livefistdefence.com/2016/08/3-reasons-why-scorpeneleak-is-a-big-worry.html

Can someone explain to me.. one line and its significance.. The red one..

Look i really wish to understand that a *crew deployed in kilo class boat* , stated *currently deployed*, *will they surface in the middle of the sea to check with their android cellphone and check for a internet connectivity and browse to see the news and also receive our Shiv Aroor's (livefist) call and give this statement? or say use a laptop and a dongle to check all this?

*
@Abingdonboy @anant_s @Nilgiri @anant_s @hellfire @MilSpec @Ankit Kumar 002 @zebra7 @Vergennes ..

I may be wrong so pls correct me bcz i for someone dont think during Kilo operational deployment you get such luxuries.. Wont such a call or communication give out the critical location of the sub in the first place?

This one is epic i guess from every Defence reporting standard

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## Indrajit

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Mismatch between leaked Scorpene info and specification model, say government sources*
> 
> *Top government sources say there is a mismatch between the papers available in public domain and the specification manual on which the boats are being made.*
> New Delhi, August 25, 2016 | UPDATED 14:32 IST
> 
> *Primary analysis of the Navy on the Scorpene submarine information leak indicates that there is a mismatch between the papers available in public domain and the specification manual on which the boats are being made, top government sources said.*
> 
> The primary analysis report has been shared with Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar. *Claims have been made that 22,400 papers were leaked but actually only few papers are available in the open domain.*
> 
> *Though sources confirm that the leaked papers have similarity to one of the submarine versions discussed with the French naval contractor DCNS, many specifications were changed in the final version.*
> 
> *However, to avoid any chance, the Ministry of Defence has asked Navy to seek a detailed report on the leaked papers from DCNS. The matter will be taken up with DCNS through Ministry of External Affairs, the sources said.*...................................



Unfortunately, this will have to be taken with a truckload of salt. What does anyone expect the MoD to say....? It might be true or it might not be but any & all statements coming out now, especially when _"top governmental sources"_ say something will carry with it, a credibility question. The article itself says that very few of the 22,400 pages are available at this time with the MoD and who knows, even that 22,400 number might just be the tip of the iceberg.



PARIKRAMA said:


>



The same point I was making earlier. We have to assume the worst.

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## Hellfire

PARIKRAMA said:


> View attachment 328687
> 
> 
> http://www.livefistdefence.com/2016/08/3-reasons-why-scorpeneleak-is-a-big-worry.html
> 
> Can someone explain to me.. one line and its significance.. The red one..
> 
> Look i really wish to understand that a *crew deployed in kilo class boat* , stated *currently deployed*, *will they surface in the middle of the sea to check with their android cellphone and check for a internet connectivity and browse to see the news and also receive our Shiv Aroor's (livefist) call and give this statement? or say use a laptop and a dongle to check all this?
> 
> *
> @Abingdonboy @anant_s @Nilgiri @anant_s @hellfire @MilSpec @Ankit Kumar 002 @zebra7 @Vergennes ..
> 
> I may be wrong so pls correct me bcz i for someone dont think during Kilo operational deployment you get such luxuries.. Wont such a call or communication give out the critical location of the sub in the first place?
> 
> This one is epic i guess from every Defence reporting standard



Awesome, reporting!!

But being deployed with a boat does not mean that you are out in sea. It denotes you are assigned to the boat at the present as opposed to staff appointment at headquarters.

Kilo is so cramped, that I support triple of their hardship allowance!!!!

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## Nilgiri

PARIKRAMA said:


> View attachment 328687
> 
> 
> http://www.livefistdefence.com/2016/08/3-reasons-why-scorpeneleak-is-a-big-worry.html
> 
> Can someone explain to me.. one line and its significance.. The red one..
> 
> Look i really wish to understand that a *crew deployed in kilo class boat* , stated *currently deployed*, *will they surface in the middle of the sea to check with their android cellphone and check for a internet connectivity and browse to see the news and also receive our Shiv Aroor's (livefist) call and give this statement? or say use a laptop and a dongle to check all this?
> 
> *
> @Abingdonboy @anant_s @Nilgiri @anant_s @hellfire @MilSpec @Ankit Kumar 002 @zebra7 @Vergennes ..
> 
> I may be wrong so pls correct me bcz i for someone dont think during Kilo operational deployment you get such luxuries.. Wont such a call or communication give out the critical location of the sub in the first place?
> 
> This one is epic i guess from every Defence reporting standard



Maybe he means "currently-deployed" as not out in the sea but part of a Kilo-sub crew.

*Shrug* I can never tell what some defence journos mean/claim these days since they tend to use quite some latitude in their reporting.

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## Hellfire

@PARIKRAMA

But with network centric integration, a surfaced Kilo can technically access world wide web and post a rebuttal to your comment of being able to track him ...

He will say hello and challenge you to find him...bloody cheeky sods they are

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## A_Poster

GuardianRED said:


> *"acoustic signatures" - example of us indians Being Dramatic!*
> 
> How can acoustic signatures of sub be leaked EVEN before the sub is finished being built or haven't had sea trails




But, even if Acoustic signature of vanilla submarines from archives is leaked, would it not narrow down the range in which enemy would have to look. I mean acoustic signature of modified Indian submarine could not be widely different from a plain scorpene submarine.

@PARIKRAMA @Nilgiri @Ankit Kumar 002 

Though on positive side, if your enemy has knowledge about the band in which your unfinished submarine would be emitting, small changes in under-construction submarine could actually make the information with enemy, counterproductive for him.

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## GuardianRED

PARIKRAMA said:


> View attachment 328687
> 
> 
> http://www.livefistdefence.com/2016/08/3-reasons-why-scorpeneleak-is-a-big-worry.html
> 
> Can someone explain to me.. one line and its significance.. The red one..
> 
> Look i really wish to understand that a *crew deployed in kilo class boat* , stated *currently deployed*, *will they surface in the middle of the sea to check with their android cellphone and check for a internet connectivity and browse to see the news and also receive our Shiv Aroor's (livefist) call and give this statement? or say use a laptop and a dongle to check all this?
> 
> *
> @Abingdonboy @anant_s @Nilgiri @anant_s @hellfire @MilSpec @Ankit Kumar 002 @zebra7 @Vergennes ..
> 
> I may be wrong so pls correct me bcz i for someone dont think during Kilo operational deployment you get such luxuries.. Wont such a call or communication give out the critical location of the sub in the first place?
> 
> This one is epic i guess from every Defence reporting standard


Yes Shiv Aroor - the same guy who wrote an article as well as a news report on India Today About a Total Lapse of security from DRDO about a live (warhead) missile prahaar begin stuck at a port and worried about chinese stealing it!

Yes we trust him (saying Sarcastically)

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## PARIKRAMA

A_Poster said:


> But, even if Acoustic signature of vanilla submarines from archives is leaked, would it not narrow down the range in which enemy would have to look. I mean acoustic signature of modified Indian submarine could not be widely different from a plain scorpene submarine.
> 
> @PARIKRAMA @Nilgiri @Ankit Kumar 002
> 
> Though on positive side, if your enemy has knowledge about the band in which your unfinished submarine would be emitting, small changes in under-construction submarine could actually make the information with enemy, counterproductive for him.



Acoustic signature of a submarine is only known when the product finished hits the testing on sea for extended period of time and under different conditions/speed and depth its recorded and finally added to IFF Library.

In essence every material used to additions and deletion in terms of customization can vastly change teh signature print of a submarine.

Fortunately such a signature print is not there to be shared as first Kalavari undergoing sea trials as of now and hence there is no question of any acoustic signature being leaked ..

Even if suppose via different means our adversaries come to know of a band in which such submarines can be found and use complex tracking methods and algorithms, there is also another big friend of ours who protects us .. Tahts the second point...

The second point is a very beautiful phenomena in the war waters surrounding IOR (near the equator the warm waters)






thats by Admiral Vishnu Bhagwat in a telegraph newspaper report 
here: http://www.telegraphindia.com/1160825/jsp/frontpage/story_104361.jsp

Thus this is why there are additional layers of protection there... Recall a recent exercise where a US SSn versus Kilo sub in Indian exercise happened and SSN could not detect kilo. Now we can be clear that US has the most sophisticated tech in its sub and yet it could not detect kilo sub.. It tells you the potential challenges... Even though they have already got signature of Kilo subs in their library via NATO allies, yet this result.. Thus, there is much more to just the signature

The third angle is the crew and its experience +capability. Even a greenhorn with the best machine can be a fail case, but a good crew under a good leader can defy everything and yet come out on top. Sufficient to say, with kilo experience already, Scorpene crew folks would have incorporated small but important learning from training and seniors.. This will matter a lot and will provide the vital difference between winning and losing..

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## Abingdonboy

egodoc222 said:


> Why the generalisation?
> In this case being dramatic is justified!!
> Leak of sensitive documents is no small issue...
> We don't know what other files got leaked?
> What if they contain performance parameters or even worse what if they contain acoustic signatures of the sub?


@Nilgiri @PARIKRAMA

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## NKVD

Abingdonboy said:


> @Nilgiri @PARIKRAMA



Acoustic signature of the subs which are unconstructed yet 

What a fail this guy is he don't know shit 

Each subs has different patterns of noises 
Which also depends upon depth ,water etc how will anybody can asses it without sea trials

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## GuardianRED

A_Poster said:


> But, even if Acoustic signature of vanilla submarines from archives is leaked, would it not narrow down the range in which enemy would have to look. I mean acoustic signature of modified Indian submarine could not be widely different from a plain scorpene submarine.
> 
> @PARIKRAMA @Nilgiri @Ankit Kumar 002
> 
> Though on positive side, if your enemy has knowledge about the band in which your unfinished submarine would be emitting, small changes in under-construction submarine could actually make the information with enemy, counterproductive for him.


Well The acoustic signatures is a closely guarded secret that obtaining a base signature would be from existing boats in service , ie from the Chilean and Malaysian navies (the French themselves haven't got these boats in service)

BUT with each boat distinct in its manufacturing process, materials used, sensors, place of operations. to narrow it down to an IN Sub is extremely difficult

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## NKVD

GuardianRED said:


> Well The acoustic signatures is a closely guarded secret that obtaining a base signature would be from existing boats in service , ie from the Chilean and Malaysian navies (the French themselves haven't got them)
> 
> BUT with each boat distinct in its manufacturing process, materials used, sensors, place of operations. to narrow it down to an IN Sub is extremely difficult



Acoustic signature are different from different subs 

Like Harley Davidson engine each have different patterns of noises 

Without sea trials no one can asses what is actual acoustic signature of subs has

I don't how can one leak acoustic signature details of unconstructed Subs

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## Abingdonboy

Inderjit said:


> The Augusta Westland deal was soaked in corruption & even the Italians agreed on that, odd to see you use that. Nothing so-called about that scam.


"Soaked in corruption" and yet not a SINGLE prosecution (in either country) in 5 years now? A lot of mud slinging is going on that's for sure but it is not clear exactly what wrongdoing is supposed to have been done.

Either way, the point that @GuardianRED made still stands; in that case, the "Saintly" defence minister cancelled an essential deal (despite deliveries having already begun) without waiting for due process to run its course and the wrongdoing exposed. The end result? Assets that were critically required are sat mothballed and u/s at Palam whilst the 30+ year old machines they were meant to replace are still lumbering on endangering their passengers (who just happen to be the most senior officals in India) and crews. As always the military had to pay for the failures of their (civilian) so-called leaders.

The IN is down to 13 (relatively old) SSKs whilst it is facing an ever expanding sub-surface threat in its own backyard, of course now is the PERFECT time to cancel the Scorpene (and follow on) deal, right?

This is warfare by other means, not with bullets or torpedos but through espionage and through the (paid) Indian media.



NKVD said:


> Acoustic signature of the subs which are unconstructed yet
> 
> What a fail this guy is he don't know shit
> 
> Each subs has different patterns of noises
> Which also depends upon depth ,water etc how will anybody can asses it without sea trials


No no bro, it is perfectly possible to leak signatures in 2011 that the IN and OEM (DCNS) don't even have in 2016.

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## Indrajit

Abingdonboy said:


> "Soaked in corruption" and yet not a SINGLE prosecution (in either country) in 5 years now? A lot of mud slinging is going on that's for sure but it is not clear exactly what wrongdoing is supposed to have been done..



Not a single prosecution? There are people sitting in jail in Italy after being convicted.


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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> View attachment 328687
> 
> 
> http://www.livefistdefence.com/2016/08/3-reasons-why-scorpeneleak-is-a-big-worry.html
> 
> Can someone explain to me.. one line and its significance.. The red one..
> 
> Look i really wish to understand that a *crew deployed in kilo class boat* , stated *currently deployed*, *will they surface in the middle of the sea to check with their android cellphone and check for a internet connectivity and browse to see the news and also receive our Shiv Aroor's (livefist) call and give this statement? or say use a laptop and a dongle to check all this?
> 
> *
> @Abingdonboy @anant_s @Nilgiri @anant_s @hellfire @MilSpec @Ankit Kumar 002 @zebra7 @Vergennes ..
> 
> I may be wrong so pls correct me bcz i for someone dont think during Kilo operational deployment you get such luxuries.. Wont such a call or communication give out the critical location of the sub in the first place?
> 
> This one is epic i guess from every Defence reporting standard


Shiv Aroor is a sensationlist hack who rarely attempts to hide his bias, lack of technical knowledge or even that he has been bought off by certain foreign OEMs.

The part about the sub officer giving this hack updates whilst on deployment are utterly hilarious but the sad thing is many Indians will swallow this nonsense.



Inderjit said:


> Not a single prosecution? There are people sitting in jail in Italy after being convicted.


Are there? What have they been charged with?

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## Indrajit

Abingdonboy said:


> The IN is down to 13 (relatively old) SSKs whilst it is facing an ever expanding sub-surface threat in its own backyard, of course now is the PERFECT time to cancel the Scorpene (and follow on) deal, right?



Didn't make that argument but are you suggesting that we should just pretend that nothing happened? The follow on is definitely a big question mark until the situation becomes clearer.



> This is warfare by other means, not with bullets or torpedos but through espionage and through the (paid) Indian media.



In which case we have a partner, DCNS who doesn't seem up to the task _(the enemies would have to include not just the paid Indian media also the paid Australian media......)._


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## Abingdonboy

Inderjit said:


> In which case we have a partner, DCNS who doesn't seem up to the task .


It's far too early to be making such claims. Now I do doubt some claims that all that was leaked was effectively a fleshed out "brochure" but I also know that it is nonsense to suggest that some of the most critical parameters of India's Scorpenes are known to others when their own user (IN) hasn't recorded them as of yet. The truth exists somewhere in the middle.

Having said that, I am not willing to write off DCNS just yet, a lot depends on what happens next (DCNS/Franch govt tackling/prosecution of these leaks) and the steps DCNS takes to recover its damaged reputation. I don't see the fact that FAR more sensitive details were hacked by the Chinese from Lockhead Martin about the F-35 factoring into the minds of many when they prescribe India looking at that white elephant or when looking at India's dealings with LM as an OEM.

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## GuardianRED

Inderjit said:


> Didn't make that argument but are you suggesting that we should just pretend that nothing happened? The follow on is definitely a big question mark until the situation becomes clearer.



No one is pretending that nothing has happened. BUT to assume that something HAS HAPPENED and go on a blacklisting and cancelling spree is being Mad King (GoT reference) there other ways once the situation is clearer

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## Hellfire

Shiv Aroor is our very own windy's brother, that is what he is. I had an interaction with him on his blogs about 7-8 years back when he was literally crying over T-90 induction. His facts were off .... best let him rant.

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## ashok321

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...submarines-data-leak/articleshow/53854290.cms








NEW DELHI: The government has ordered an inquiry into a massive leak of documents relating to combat capabilities of India's under-construction stealth Scorpene submarines that has raised fears of a major security breach of the underwater fleet. 

The leak -reported on Wednesday by 'The Australian' newspaper -was discussed by the cabinet committee on security where defence minister Manohar Parrikar briefedPM Modi and other CCS members. The $3.9 billion project is one of the largest deals in the world. 

The assessment in government is that while implications of the leak need to be thoroughly examined, the data was written in 2011 with several specifications altered since then and the documents may not constitute as big a security concern as seemed the case when reports of the leak surfaced. 







Reporting the leak of documents titled "Restricted Scorpene India" running to 22,400 pages, 'The Australian' said: "The documents detail the most sensitive combat capabilities of India's new submarine fleet and would provide an intelligence bonanza if obtained by strategic rivals like Pakistan and China." French firm DCNS, which is making the stealth submarines jointly with India, said the leak of documents is "a serious matter pertaining to the Indian Scorpene programme".French authorities for defence security will investigate and determine the exact nature of the leaked documents, the manufacturer said. 
Reports said the leaked data includes stealth capabilities of the Scorpene submarines, frequencies at which intelligence is gathered, noise levels at various speeds, diving depths, range and endurance, magnetic and electro-magnetic data, propeller noise, speed conditions for periscope use and torpedo launches. 

Report of `The Australian' suggests a former French naval officer working as a sub-contractor for the DCNS might be behind the leak of data which were written in France in 2011. The French firm initially suggested the leak might be at the Indian end, saying it supplies but does not control access to technical data. But DCNS's plans to sell frigates to Chile and an amphibious ship to Russia are also part of the leaks and are not connected to India's Scorpene deal. 








The report claimed the leak details the "entire secret combat capability of the six Scorpene-class submarines". Indian officers, however, claimed the leak will not have a major adverse impact on the operational deploy ment of the diesel-electric vessels by India. "I have asked the Navy chief to study the entire issue. There has been a hacking," defence minister Manohar Parrikar said. The Navy said the leaks seem to happened from an overseas destination. 

Information linked to class and type of submarine and its manufacturer is likely to be available with rival navies but leak of details regarding operational frequencies and the electromagnetic "signature" of the subma rines is a concern. 

The leak immediately grabbed global attention as a variant of the Scorpene is used by navies of Malaysia, Chile and Brazil and DCNS has just won a major contract to supply its new range of Shortfin Barracuda submarines to Australia. 

The data is believed to have reached a company in south-east Asia involved in a commercial venture by a regional navy and was passed through two parties before being sent on a data disk by mail to a firm in Australia. 

The sea trials of the Indian submarines have been on since May and the project is behind schedule. The stealth technology will give Indian Navy an edge in the Indian Ocean region as it can collect intelligence and detect military movements. 

Though Parrikar said he does not suspect the leak to be 100%, as much of the final integration will be according to Indian specifications -indicating that some parameters can be altered.

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## Indrajit

Abingdonboy said:


> Are theere? What have they been charged with?



Correction. Convicted of bribery In the Indian deal but not jailed pending appeal in Italian Supreme Court. An earlier post of mine in this thread has the details.



GuardianRED said:


> No one is pretending that nothing has happened. BUT to assume that something HAS HAPPENED and go on a blacklisting and cancelling spree is being Mad King (GoT reference) there other ways once the situation is clearer



Something has happened, that much we know. The extent of damage is unknown at this point. Whether blacklisting or cancellation is warranted is not something that we can know, certainly at this point. There could be many ways around this _(as you suggest) _that might become available once the dust settles down but DCNS has plenty to answer for and any follow on orders must await a thorough investigation



Abingdonboy said:


> It's far too early to be making such claims. Now I do doubt some claims that all that was leaked was effectively a fleshed out "brochure" but I also know that it is nonsense to suggest that some of the most critical parameters of India's Scorpenes are known to others when their own user (IN) hasn't recorded them as of yet. The truth exists somewhere in the middle.
> 
> Having said that, I am not willing to write off DCNS just yet, a lot depends on what happens next (DCNS/Franch govt tackling/prosecution of these leaks) and the steps DCNS takes to recover its damaged reputation. I don't see the fact that FAR more sensitive details were hacked by the Chinese from Lockhead Martin about the F-35 factoring into the minds of many when they prescribe India looking at that white elephant or when looking at India's dealings with LM as an OEM.




Not early at all. You suggested media/perception war and I pointed out that DCNS is the reason we are in this mess now. What bothers me more is their reaction to the leak where they went out of their way to downplay any effect on the Australian deal while remaining seemingly unconcerned with the primary victim, i.e. India. Granted the Australian contract is a super prize but DCNS behaviour was a big put off considering that they are the reason for this problem. You may be fine with that attitude, I'm not.


----------



## Abingdonboy

Inderjit said:


> Correction. Convicted of bribery In the Indian deal but not jailed pending appeal in Italian Supreme Court. An earlier post of mine in this thread has the details.


And who did they pay bribes to?

This is a lot like the so-called "TATRA truck scam", a lot of fuss was made many talking heads had their say, TATRA was blacklisted as investigatons were launched. A few years later the CBI closes the investigation for a complete lack of evidence that any wrongdoing was actually commited and the Indian Military that has had to wait years for such vehicles (being forced to cannibalize parts of their fleet in the interim) can once again start purchasing TATRA trucks again.

It's a nothing but a political circus at this point (in both nations) but it is still unclear as to what wrongdoing is even being suggested (bribary is a very broad term). It would be pretty absurd to suggest that Augusta Westland couldn't compete on equal footing and that the AW-101 wasn't the best machine in the race (for that role), even the US had selected this a/c for transporting their President. Why would bribes be paid and to whom when each procurement goes through multiple layers of scrutiny by both military and civilian experts. There is no single (or limited number) induvidual who can actually ensure that a certain product is procured- not even the ACM (who has been accused very bizzarly).

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## A_Poster

Inderjit said:


> Something has happened, that much we know. The extent of damage is unknown at this point. Whether blacklisting or cancellation is warranted is not something that we can know, certainly at this point. There could be many ways around this _(as you suggest) _that might become available once the dust settles down but DCNS has plenty to answer for and any follow on orders must await a thorough investigation



Even if everything has leaked, it would be imprudent to cancel these subs.

If these has been substantial leak (extent of which no one know at this point), it would be a wiser decision to modify under-construction submarines.



GuardianRED said:


> No one is pretending that nothing has happened. BUT to assume that something HAS HAPPENED and go on a blacklisting and cancelling spree is being Mad King (GoT reference) there other ways once the situation is clearer




+1

Though neither DCNS nor GoI assurances mean much in current scenario as they are reading from PR playbook atm. They would always say that "leak is not substantial"/"only manuals have leaked" and would take ameliorative actions in private.



NKVD said:


> Acoustic signature are different from different subs
> 
> Like Harley Davidson engine each have different patterns of noises
> 
> Without sea trials no one can asses what is actual acoustic signature of subs has
> 
> I don't how can one leak acoustic signature details of unconstructed Subs



Yes, but the similarity between two subs of same model would be much higher than similarity between sub of two different models. So in theory, if acoustic signature of a scorpene sub is obtained, a band in which most scorpene subs would be emitting could be guessed. 

Also remember that this data has and its leaker has made a trip to SE Asia, and SE Asians are more corrupt than us Indians.

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## Indrajit

Abingdonboy said:


> And who did they pay bribes to?



Irrelevant to the Italian case. The Italian authorities were concerned that bribes were paid, investigated, found that bribes had been paid, convicted the gentlemen concerned & also fined them substantially. The TATRA truck issue was an internal issue with the CoAS taking a position. Can't dismiss the serving CoAS's statement that easily. This case involves a foreign court convicting Italian official of Finmeccanica for bribery. No way for any Indian government to get past that. Period.


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## Abingdonboy

Inderjit said:


> What bothers me more is their reaction to the leak where they went out of their way to downplay any effect on the Australian deal while remaining seemingly unconcerned with the primary victim, i.e. India. Granted the Australian contract is a super prize but DCNS behaviour was a big put off considering that they are the reason for this problem. You may be fine with that attitude, I'm not.


Given that Australia was clearly the intended victim and that these claims were published by an Australian media outlet I can understand why DCNS would focus on the Australian angle.

The Indian/IN-France/DCNS relationship is VERY different and it makes sense that the Indian angle would be handled behind the scenes between all parties.



Inderjit said:


> Irrelevant to the Italian case


Really? And you think that's how the law works? That part of a scuccesful prosecution isn't proving wrongdoing beyond a reasonable doubt that would naturally include the party being bribed.

It's like saying someone has been convicted of murder but we don't know who they killed, that is an irrelevent detail. In fact that is CENTRAL to case.

I will reiterate, 5 years down the line and the only thing to have come out of this are a fleet of birds that Indian taxpayers have already paid for sat idle and u/s at Palam airport.

Whatever has happened in Italy seems more about their internal politics and the complex and fearful Indian system was an easy target.

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## ashok321

http://post.jagran.com/data-in-the-...no-need-for-alarm-says-indian-navy-1472096000

*Data In The Leaked Report Hypothetical, No Need For Alarm, Says Indian Navy*


*



*


*The Data Does Not Pertain To Any Of The Scorpene Submarines Currently Being Built In Mazgaon Docks:*

*Navy sources, meanwhile, maintained there is nothing to be alarmed about as the data does not pertain to any of the Scorpene submarines currently being built in Mazgaon Docks, Mumbai."Details in the leaked documents regarding the Scorpene submarine are not valid because the signature can be known only once the boat goes out to the seas," a navy source said, adding the specifications mentioned in the document are hypothetical.*

*10 Facts To Know About India's Scorpene Submarine*

*



*


*"How can we know the signature of the boat which is still not done with the trials. The technical and operational details will be written by how we exploit the submarine. So far, even the weapon systems and torpedo are not there."The navy, nonetheless, held the leak is an issue of concern."The documents should not have been leaked, but there is nothing to be alarmed about," said the source. DCNS, two-thirds owned by the French government, said a probe will be carried out to determine the exact nature of the leaked papers, potential damage to the company and customers and responsibilities for this leak.*

*The Australian media reports, quoting DCNS, said that the leak of such technical data could not happen with its submarine proposed for Australia. The French company also alluded that the leak may have occurred at India, rather than from France. DCNS this year signed a contract with Australia for the manufacture of 12 submarines. The first of the Scorpene-class submarines being built in India, Kalvari, went for sea trials in May and is expected to be inducted in the Indian Navy by this year-end.Officials said the other six submarines, in different stages of construction, will be inducted subsequently at intervals of nine months each. The variants of the Scorpene submarine are used by Malaysia and Chile, and Brazil is soon to join the club.*

*GOOD NEWS:*

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## Indrajit

Abingdonboy said:


> Given that Australia was clearly the intended victim and that these claims were published by an Australian media outlet I can understand why DCNS would focus on the Australian angle.



Australia might have been the intended target, India was the victim. 



> The Indian/IN-France/DCNS relationship is VERY different and it makes sense that the Indian angle would be handled behind the scenes between all parties.



Different, not different.....can't handle such a scandal only behind the scenes. Has to be done both there & upfront.


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## PaklovesTurkiye

*France's DCNS says India submarine data leak may be 'economic warfare'*

*By Matt Siegel and John Irish | SYDNEY/PARIS*

French naval contractor DCNS said on Wednesday it may have been the victim of "economic warfare" after secrets about its Scorpene submarines being built in India were leaked.

India opened an investigation after The Australian newspaper published documents relating to the submarine's combat capabilities, raising concerns over another major contract with Australia.

The leak contains more than 22,000 pages outlining the details of six submarines that DCNS has designed for the Indian Navy.

"I understand there has been a case of hacking," Indian Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar told reporters. "We will find out what has happened."

The submarines are being built at a state-run shipyard in Mumbai and the first one was expected to go into service by the end of the year, the first step in the Indian navy's effort to rebuild its dwindling fleet.

The leak has raised doubts about the security of DCNS's submarine project in Australia where it is locked in exclusive negotiations after seeing off rivals for a A$50 billion ($38 billion) contract to build the Barracuda next generation of submarines.

DCNS, which is 35 percent owned by Thales (TCFP.PA), said it was working to determine if any harm had been caused to clients with a view to drawing up an action plan.

Asked if the leak could affect other contracts, a company spokeswoman said it had come against a difficult commercial backdrop and that corporate espionage could be to blame.

"Competition is getting tougher and tougher, and all means can be used in this context," she said. "There is India, Australia and other prospects, and other countries could raise legitimate questions over DCNS. It's part of the tools in economic warfare."

DCNS, which is also vying for submarine contracts in Norway and Poland, beat Germany's ThyssenKrupp AG (TKAG.DE) and a Japanese-government backed bid by Mitsubishi Heavy Industries (7011.T) and Kawasaki Heavy Industries (7012.T) in Australia.

That was a major blow to Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe's push to develop defense export capabilities as part of a more muscular security agenda.

The leaked documents cover the Scorpene-class model and do not contain any details of the vessel currently being designed for the Australian fleet.

Thales (TCFP.PA), whose shares fell 3 percent before paring back some of the losses, declined to comment.

French Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian, who finalised the Australian deal, also declined to comment.


*MAJOR STRATEGIC PROBLEM*

The breadth of detail in the documents creates a strategic problem for India, Malaysia and Chile, all of which operate the same submarine, an Australian political source with decades of experience in the global arms industry told Reuters.

Excerpts published in redacted form on the newspaper's website contained highly sensitive details of the submarine including technical manuals and models of the boat's antennae.

RELATED COVERAGE

VIDEOMassive data leak hits French submarine maker
VIDEOMassive data leak hits French submarine maker
Source of submarine document leak 'from overseas': Indian defense ministry
"If it's 22,400 pages, it's a major stuff-up," the source said. "It's a huge deal.

"It allows them to understand everything about the submarines. What speeds it can do; how noisy it is; what speeds the mast can be raised at ... all of that is just devastating."

A French source close to the matter tried to play down the severity of the leak, saying the documents appeared to be "sensitive but neither critical nor confidential".

The Indian Defence Ministry said in a statement it was investigating the impact of the leak on the submarine program which it said had occurred from abroad. It gave no details.

Uday Bhaskar, a former naval officer, said that if the leak was established, it would amount to a significant compromise of the credibility of the submarines.

India has a fleet of 13 aging submarines, only half of which are operational at any time, opening up a gap with China which is expanding its maritime presence in the Indian Ocean.

Australian Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull sought to deflect concern about the leak, touting the high security standards in Australia, where the submarine will be built. The Australian reported that the leak occurred in France in 2011.

"But clearly, it is a reminder that, particularly in this digital world, cyber security is of critical importance," he told the Seven TV network.
*

(Additional reporting by Gwénaëlle Barzic in Paris, Michel Rose and John Irish; Editing by Richard Lough and David Stamp)

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-submarines-india-australia-idUSKCN10Z04G

Parrikar is burning...Now who lives in hell !!! ...A defense minister who is famous for trash talk can't even make sure DCNS to keep his secrets safe...

He and his RSS thugs should pray for two things now...

1) May Pakistan never gets his hands on those more than 20k pages.
2)May those leaks are not that significant that lead to give major advantage to Pakistan.  *


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## Abingdonboy

Inderjit said:


> Different, not different.....can't handle such a scandal only behind the scenes. Has to be done both there & upfront.


Actually, this is the ONLY way sensible and mature nations/sides handle these things. Having a public discussion on these matters and airing one's dirty laundry is only going to be counter intuative.



PaklovesTurkiye said:


> 1) May Pakistan never gets his hands on those more than 20k pages.



Even if Pakistan can gain such materials they would not ammount to much for the reasons outlined in the previous pages.



PaklovesTurkiye said:


> * 2)May those leaks are not that significant that lead to give major advantage to Pakistan.  *


As stated above, this is impossible.

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## Ankit Kumar 002

A_Poster said:


> But, even if Acoustic signature of vanilla submarines from archives is leaked, would it not narrow down the range in which enemy would have to look. I mean acoustic signature of modified Indian submarine could not be widely different from a plain scorpene submarine.
> 
> @PARIKRAMA @Nilgiri @Ankit Kumar 002
> 
> Though on positive side, if your enemy has knowledge about the band in which your unfinished submarine would be emitting, small changes in under-construction submarine could actually make the information with enemy, counterproductive for him.



Hint , it differed greatly with change in temperature. And the likely data leaked would be about the operations of Chilean Navy Scorpenes in relatively colder areas. 

Acoustic signature is one of the least important things here to worry about.


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## PaklovesTurkiye

Abingdonboy said:


> Even if Pakistan can gain such materials they would not ammount to much for the reasons outlined in the previous pages.
> 
> As stated above, this is impossible.



We love impossible........Pakistanis will b die of laughter and happiness if they got some real classified info from that...This is beyond repair, now. Even slightest and little importance detail of such huge project, involving so many countries and high tech....Intelligence agencies of every mothafuka country must b dying to get its hands on that leaks....like Pakistan, Germany, China, Japan, US, heck every intelligence agency will be trying its best to get their hands on that specific details...

Anyway....This may become the biggest scandal...I find it quite interesting how IN handles her things....Blasting own subs while sitting in docks and then this....


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## Indrajit

Abingdonboy said:


> Really? And you think that's how the law works? That part of a scuccesful prosecution isn't proving wrongdoing beyond a reasonable doubt that would naturally include the party being bribed.
> 
> It's like saying someone has been convicted of murder but we don't know who they killed, that is an irrelevent detail. In fact that is CENTRAL to case.



Considering that a prosecution was successfully carried out in Italy, maybe you should teach them how the law works according to you. Unlike you, I go by what exists on the ground, not what conspiracy theory might have put them there. A little idea of jurisdiction might inform you why who the bribe was given to was not relevant to the case in Italy. 

What did you expect the Indian government to argue? Not only that they can't get hold of the bribe takers but that the Italians have jailed some innocent people for no reason at all to dent an important company of theirs, merely to play politics? Ya, that will fly....Finmeccanica, the company has reached a settlement with the prosecution. Do you want GoI to make an argument of innocence on behalf of a company that has admitted guilt ?


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## Abingdonboy

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> Anyway....This may become the biggest scandal...I find it quite interesting how IN handles her things....Blasting own subs while sitting in docks and then this....


Glad we have such informed and entlightened members here....

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## Ankit Kumar 002

The burns islamists get from a word with 3 letters is just awesome , just love it.

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## Abingdonboy

Inderjit said:


> Considering that a prosecution was successfully carried out in Italy, maybe you should teach them how the law works according to you. Unlike you, I go by what exists on the ground, not what conspiracy theory might have put them there. A little idea of jurisdiction might inform you why who the bribe was given to was not relevant to the case in Italy.
> 
> What did you expect the Indian government to argue? Not only that they can't get hold of the bribe takers but that the Italians have jailed some innocent people for no reason at all to dent an important company of theirs, merely to play politics? Ya, that will fly....Finmeccanica, the company has reached a settlement with the prosecution. Do you want GoI to make an argument of innocence on behalf of a company that has admitted guilt ?


I am not making excuses for wrongdoing, I am merely arguing for due process to take place and the Indian leadership to fight their over-emotional and irrational tendancies and not hurt the military's capabilities by taking rash and impulsive decisions now. I simply cited the AW-101 to highlight what consequences such decsions can have.

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## Indrajit

Abingdonboy said:


> I am not making excuses for wrongdoing, I am merely arguing for due process to take place and the Indian leadership to fight their over-emotional and irrational tendancies and not hurt the military's capabilities by taking rash and impulsive decisions now. I simply cited the AW-101 to highlight what consequences such decsions can have.




In the case you quoted _(Finmeccanica)_, GoI had absolutely no option but to do what they did. Anything else would have been suicide. This is a different type of an issue, more serious than charges of bribery with a possibility of a compromised platform. Regardless of whether or not GoI feel the need to amend this contract in terms of numbers, it would be very difficult to give a follow up order without some major concessions from DCNS and even that might not be enough. 

No one is arguing for a rash or impulsive decision but no one can pretend that it is business as usual. We are in for a period of flux and that is pretty much the last thing the submarine arm needed at this point.


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## Imran Khan

now question is what the leaked

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## PaklovesTurkiye

Imran Khan said:


> now question is what the leaked



Any guesses?


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## ashok321

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/768788646426095616

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## sathya

Leak may shift the orders from scorpene to barakuda

Or early upgrade ofscorpene may be with AIp

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## punit

PARIKRAMA said:


> Acoustic signature of a submarine is only known when the product finished hits the testing on sea for extended period of time and under different conditions/speed and depth its recorded and finally added to IFF Library.
> 
> In essence every material used to additions and deletion in terms of customization can vastly change teh signature print of a submarine.
> 
> Fortunately such a signature print is not there to be shared as first Kalavari undergoing sea trials as of now and hence there is no question of any acoustic signature being leaked ..
> 
> Even if suppose via different means our adversaries come to know of a band in which such submarines can be found and use complex tracking methods and algorithms, there is also another big friend of ours who protects us .. Tahts the second point...
> 
> The second point is a very beautiful phenomena in the war waters surrounding IOR (near the equator the warm waters)
> View attachment 328689
> 
> 
> thats by Admiral Vishnu Bhagwat in a telegraph newspaper report
> here: http://www.telegraphindia.com/1160825/jsp/frontpage/story_104361.jsp
> 
> Thus this is why there are additional layers of protection there... Recall a recent exercise where a US SSn versus Kilo sub in Indian exercise happened and SSN could not detect kilo. Now we can be clear that US has the most sophisticated tech in its sub and yet it could not detect kilo sub.. It tells you the potential challenges... Even though they have already got signature of Kilo subs in their library via NATO allies, yet this result.. Thus, there is much more to just the signature
> 
> The third angle is the crew and its experience +capability. Even a greenhorn with the best machine can be a fail case, but a good crew under a good leader can defy everything and yet come out on top. Sufficient to say, with kilo experience already, Scorpene crew folks would have incorporated small but important learning from training and seniors.. This will matter a lot and will provide the vital difference between winning and losing..


why we are not buying Kilos any more .. are they out of production ?

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## PARIKRAMA

@Abingdonboy @Nilgiri @anant_s @Ankit Kumar 002 @GuardianRED @Vergennes @others


Its a bit strange that Australian newspaper and the reporter going all out to raise the panic factor and sensationalize the expose.. His assertion now is that there is some confusion in India as nothing is blacked out in the dox what he has.







essentially the jargons use for scorpenes by most media folks in Australia and people in India who follow them are
- its nude now post leaks
- computer simulations would lead to scorpene to shortfin sub systems linkage
- China will fully negate Indian potential submarine fleet
- China have already downloaded the material and will incorporate changes to their submarines to take out scorpenes
- Shortfin is also compromised so nothing is there safe
- Soryu is better bcz Japan who is so close to China in territory protects Soryu as a state secret and nothing ever is leaked out of Japanese program

I mean the fantastic level of ecstasy seen in the media is beyond what Sunny Leone can provide with her efforts to please any man...



punit said:


> why we are not buying Kilos any more .. are they out of production ?


Not really.. The Kilo new version is called 636 and there was a proposal to buy 2 from Russian shipyard and make 10 in Reliance Defence deal for a total of a 12 sub deal. MOD did not consider this proposal. Chiefly the Kilo even though is a potent submarine is still an old design. The future generation submarines after kilo in teh world market comes with much better upgrades as well as from endurance perspective the AIP. On top, the value addition to our needs is negligible as Kilos are present with multiple operators so even a customised version wont help us much. The biggest factor perhaps comes from the fact that Reliance Defence quote was upwards of $400 Mn for individual submarine and talks of TOT transfer was there which are more added costs..Unfortunately the kilo upgrade package to this TOT thing is not at all winning any support from IN as well.

For IN they want a New Generation SSK in their hands of at least 15 in numbers to handle everything close to 2050-60 type of timeline.. Kilos will be far outdated by then..

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## GuardianRED

PARIKRAMA said:


> @Abingdonboy @Nilgiri @anant_s @Ankit Kumar 002 @GuardianRED @Vergennes @others
> 
> 
> Its a bit strange that Australian newspaper and the reporter going all out to raise the panic factor and sensationalize the expose.. His assertion now is that there is some confusion in India as nothing is blacked out in the dox what he has.
> View attachment 328714
> 
> 
> 
> essentially the jargons use for scorpenes by most media folks in Australia and people in India who follow them are
> - its nude now post leaks
> - computer simulations would lead to scorpene to shortfin sub systems linkage
> - China will fully negate Indian potential submarine fleet
> - China have already downloaded the material and will incorporate changes to their submarines to take out scorpenes
> - Shortfin is also compromised so nothing is there safe
> - Soryu is better bcz Japan who is so close to China in territory protects Soryu as a state secret and nothing ever is leaked out of Japanese program
> 
> I mean the fantastic level of ecstasy seen in the media is beyond what Sunny Leone can provide with her efforts to please any man...
> 
> 
> Not really.. The Kilo new version is called 636 and there was a proposal to buy 2 from Russian shipyard and make 10 in Reliance Defence deal for a total of a 12 sub deal. MOD did not consider this proposal. Chiefly the Kilo even though is a potent submarine is still an old design. The future generation submarines after kilo in teh world market comes with much better upgrades as well as from endurance perspective the AIP. On top, the value addition to our needs is negligible as Kilos are present with multiple operators so even a customised version wont help us much. The biggest factor perhaps comes from the fact that Reliance Defence quote was upwards of $400 Mn for individual submarine and talks of TOT transfer was there.Unfortunately the kilo upgrade package to this TOT thing is not at all winning any support from IN as well.
> 
> For IN they want a New Generation SSK in their hands of at least 15 in numbers to handle everything close to 2050-60 type of timeline.. Kilos will be far outdated by then..


Didn't the leaked docs released by the AUS Newspaper? How would the India get the redacted version only? Someone would have posted that here yes?

Looks like someone is stroking the Flames cause it didn't get the desired effect the first time!

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## Indrajit

PARIKRAMA said:


> Its a bit strange that Australian newspaper and the reporter going all out to raise the panic factor and sensationalize the expose.. His assertion now is that there is some confusion in India as nothing is blacked out in the dox what he has.
> View attachment 328714
> 
> 
> 
> essentially the jargons use for scorpenes by most media folks in Australia and people in India who follow them are
> - its nude now post leaks
> - computer simulations would lead to scorpene to shortfin sub systems linkage
> - China will fully negate Indian potential submarine fleet
> - China have already downloaded the material and will incorporate changes to their submarines to take out scorpenes
> - Shortfin is also compromised so nothing is there safe
> - Soryu is better bcz Japan who is so close to China in territory protects Soryu as a state secret and nothing ever is leaked out of Japanese program
> 
> I mean the fantastic level of ecstasy seen in the media is beyond what Sunny Leone can provide with her efforts to please any man...



Ya, we are both the laughing stock & the punching bag for every Tom, Dick & Harry.......We need more than just putting on a brave face here.....Btw, what the Australian reporter is doing is not strange at all, he is exploiting to the maximum his moment in the sun. He has the documents, we do not know what he has, he is going to tease this out.....This is a bit like Hillary Clinton's emails, every new day could bring new & unpleasant surprises.....the reporter controls the information flow....

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## PARIKRAMA

GuardianRED said:


> Didn't the leaked docs released by the AUS Newspaper? How would the India get the redacted version only? Someone would have posted that here yes?


no Aus newspaper released only redacted ones.. so all in public domain originating from Aus is redacted ones only.

Till now IN or anybody from GOI or even from Indian embassy in Austalia might not have contacted the reporter or the newspaper to check the non redacted versions. That is being taken care by DCNS (i guess) and we would be coordinating with DCNS on that...

also if the reporter have posted all the dox without redacting them then its leakage of military secret and a much bigger problem of potential lawsuits and public outcry

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## ashok321

From Shiv Aroor:

http://www.livefistdefence.com/2016/08/3-reasons-why-scorpeneleak-is-a-big-worry.html

*3 Reasons Why #ScorpeneLeak Is A BIG Worry*

Over the last 36 hours since the Scorpene Leak scandal broke, plenty has been said about the nature of the leak and its potential impact on Indian submarine operations and deployments. The Indian Navy has set up a top-level inquiry team to investigate the leak. India has also unequivocally put the onus on France, officially declaring that the leak for was from ‘foreign source’. In the mean time, government officials have sought to play down the impact of the leak, both officially and otherwise. Among the things being said: the leaked documents are technical manuals, are outdated, don’t constitute sensitive information and don’t pertain to India’s Scorpenes alone. An MoD official has also been quoted as saying there is no cause for worry. Handling an explosive situation where the Indian government has clearly been blindsided by the leak is one thing. But to brush the leak aside and recognise it for anything other than a devastating breach is to ensure that it happens again. Here now is a list of three reasons why the Scorpene Leak scandal is the most serious non-conflict cause for worry the Indian military has faced in a long time.


_The fact that officially controlled/restricted documents of any kind pertaining to strategic platforms have found their way into the public domain itself is the principal cause for alarm. Documentation and literature running into many thousands of pages are restricted for several reasons — tactical, strategic, economic and commercial. A leak establishes that the system on the Scorpene programme has holes. Period. That hole is now the centerpiece of two separate investigations in India and France. That hole has no place in a $3 billion transaction that was underscored by an integrity pact. That hole has no place in an enormously complex programme that looks to shore up critical force levels in one of India’s most crucial combat arms._
_Indian Navy submariners (both serving and retired) are unanimously alarmed. A serving Lieutenant Commander I spoke to, currently deployed on a Kilo-class boat, said, “We’ve seen some of the pages that are out there. But we don’t know what else is out there. Until we know, we have to assume the worst. That’s how the submarine service works.” Nothing truer. The Indian Navy itself, in its official statement today, perplexingly pointed to the redacted documents published by The Australian, as if the Australian newspaper/website is the source of the leak. The truth is, at this stage, the Indian Navy and government aren’t fully clear about what’s been leaked. It’s a metaphor that reflects submarine operations perfectly: what isn’t known could sink you._
_But there’s something much more fundamental about the leak that isn’t being recognised as much as it probably should. A second submariner I spoke to illustrated the point in the gritty way submariners do. He provided me with the following scenario: “Imagine you’re sent into a large hall full of silent people and ordered to track down a particular person. You don’t know their name, what they look like, what they sound like. Now imagine being sent into that same room with a photograph of the person, a voice sample. How much sooner would you find the person?” He admits that’s a simplistic example, but he says it conveys a very fundamental message about submarine operations. In a world of darkness and silence, the smallest glimmer of light or sound is actionable data, information that helps decisions, speeds up processes, helps evasion and tracking. 22,000 pages that reportedly cover everything from the Scorpene’s vulnerabilities to its frequencies to its acoustic profiles sounds like a “nightmare” in the submariner’s words. I asked him to list the possible nature of data compromised in the leak. His list: propulsion and cavitation data, acoustics at ultra-slow speed, combat system acoustics, drive turbine sound profile, shifting sonar profile during rapid dive, frequencies at snorkling and shallow depth, acoustic dynamics shift between shallow stationary float and snorkeling depth. Conversations in media and within the Navy wonder if technical manuals and specifications of submarine platforms really provide any fodder to adversaries. I quote, once again, a submariner: “We don’t know what’s out there. And, yes.”_

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## PARIKRAMA

Inderjit said:


> Ya, we are both the laughing stock & the punching bag for every Tom, Dick & Harry.......We need more than just putting on a brave face here.....Btw, what the Australian reporter is doing is not strange at all, he is exploiting to the maximum his moment in the sun. He has the documents, we do not know what he has, he is going to tease this out.....This is a bit like Hillary Clinton's emails, every new day could bring new & unpleasant surprises.....the reporter controls the information flow....





Exploiting the maximum
moment in the sun
sensationalism
teasing
surprises
trying to be more popular
more relevant

yup here it is











__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/768802428405768192
I am sure DCNS is going to take this guy to cleaners for some legal loophole someplace..

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## GuardianRED

Inderjit said:


> Ya, we are both the laughing stock & the punching bag for every Tom, Dick & Harry.......We need more than just putting on a brave face here.....Btw, what the Australian reporter is doing is not strange at all, he is exploiting to the maximum his moment in the sun. He has the documents, we do not know what he has, he is going to tease this out.....This is a bit like Hillary Clinton's emails, every new day could bring new & unpleasant surprises.....the reporter controls the information flow....


Yes, Running around like Headless Chickens and then asking the cancel the deal is Alot better!

Not standing up to reports and reporters and allowing him to do what he wants, THATS WILL MAKE us A LAUGHING STOCK!

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## halupridol

ashok321 said:


> From Shiv Aroor:
> 
> http://www.livefistdefence.com/2016/08/3-reasons-why-scorpeneleak-is-a-big-worry.html
> 
> *3 Reasons Why #ScorpeneLeak Is A BIG Worry*
> 
> Over the last 36 hours since the Scorpene Leak scandal broke, plenty has been said about the nature of the leak and its potential impact on Indian submarine operations and deployments. The Indian Navy has set up a top-level inquiry team to investigate the leak. India has also unequivocally put the onus on France, officially declaring that the leak for was from ‘foreign source’. In the mean time, government officials have sought to play down the impact of the leak, both officially and otherwise. Among the things being said: the leaked documents are technical manuals, are outdated, don’t constitute sensitive information and don’t pertain to India’s Scorpenes alone. An MoD official has also been quoted as saying there is no cause for worry. Handling an explosive situation where the Indian government has clearly been blindsided by the leak is one thing. But to brush the leak aside and recognise it for anything other than a devastating breach is to ensure that it happens again. Here now is a list of three reasons why the Scorpene Leak scandal is the most serious non-conflict cause for worry the Indian military has faced in a long time.
> 
> 
> _The fact that officially controlled/restricted documents of any kind pertaining to strategic platforms have found their way into the public domain itself is the principal cause for alarm. Documentation and literature running into many thousands of pages are restricted for several reasons — tactical, strategic, economic and commercial. A leak establishes that the system on the Scorpene programme has holes. Period. That hole is now the centerpiece of two separate investigations in India and France. That hole has no place in a $3 billion transaction that was underscored by an integrity pact. That hole has no place in an enormously complex programme that looks to shore up critical force levels in one of India’s most crucial combat arms._
> _Indian Navy submariners (both serving and retired) are unanimously alarmed. A serving Lieutenant Commander I spoke to, currently deployed on a Kilo-class boat, said, “We’ve seen some of the pages that are out there. But we don’t know what else is out there. Until we know, we have to assume the worst. That’s how the submarine service works.” Nothing truer. The Indian Navy itself, in its official statement today, perplexingly pointed to the redacted documents published by The Australian, as if the Australian newspaper/website is the source of the leak. The truth is, at this stage, the Indian Navy and government aren’t fully clear about what’s been leaked. It’s a metaphor that reflects submarine operations perfectly: what isn’t known could sink you._
> _But there’s something much more fundamental about the leak that isn’t being recognised as much as it probably should. A second submariner I spoke to illustrated the point in the gritty way submariners do. He provided me with the following scenario: “Imagine you’re sent into a large hall full of silent people and ordered to track down a particular person. You don’t know their name, what they look like, what they sound like. Now imagine being sent into that same room with a photograph of the person, a voice sample. How much sooner would you find the person?” He admits that’s a simplistic example, but he says it conveys a very fundamental message about submarine operations. In a world of darkness and silence, the smallest glimmer of light or sound is actionable data, information that helps decisions, speeds up processes, helps evasion and tracking. 22,000 pages that reportedly cover everything from the Scorpene’s vulnerabilities to its frequencies to its acoustic profiles sounds like a “nightmare” in the submariner’s words. I asked him to list the possible nature of data compromised in the leak. His list: propulsion and cavitation data, acoustics at ultra-slow speed, combat system acoustics, drive turbine sound profile, shifting sonar profile during rapid dive, frequencies at snorkling and shallow depth, acoustic dynamics shift between shallow stationary float and snorkeling depth. Conversations in media and within the Navy wonder if technical manuals and specifications of submarine platforms really provide any fodder to adversaries. I quote, once again, a submariner: “We don’t know what’s out there. And, yes.”_


mehh,,,shiv aroor knows nothing,,,only screwdriver manuals leaked,,nothng important written on those20K+ pages,,,its economic war on france,,,our scorpene stronk,,,now lets buy rafale

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## Ankit Kumar 002

@PARIKRAMA This is a bit confusing for me. Brazilians are shelling out 9.5 Billion USD for Scorpenes to the French , yet the 3 billion USD Indian deal is being made bigger/getting highlighted . 

Is it because the deal with Brazil has already happened but the stakes (P75I ) are higher here and a particular group is also trying to use this "Indian loss " for benefit of a particular party in Australia ? 


One more thing , on the leak.... my pigeon didn't comment on Indian deal , but said that Russians sent a similar " Advertisement " for Algerian Armed forces when they were marketing them T90 and Flankers , and it too had data about performances of the tank in various test conditions, its advantages, comparisons with T72, a field servicing manual , etc .

Could these 22000 pages here be something similar ? 


One thing is quite clear , if it's about technology getting copied and getting reproduced else where, it does not affect Indian Navy operations directly.

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## Indrajit

GuardianRED said:


> Yes, Running around like Headless Chickens and then asking the cancel the deal is Alot better!
> 
> Not standing up to reports and reporters and allowing him to do what he wants, THATS WILL MAKE us A LAUGHING STOCK!



Why so defensive? Who has talked about cancelling the deal at this point? As of now, we are running around like headless chickens because we don't know what else is out there. The reporter is not the problem, your focus is lopsided. The reporter is doing his job, what should worry us is who else has access to the information & how much. There are people who have much bigger budgets to purchase information than any newspaper, it is what they have their hands on that should worry us. The reporter & his paper have done us a favour, the uncomfortable situation not withstanding. Without them, we may never have known how deep the leak was. The newspaper & the reporter are the least of our problems.


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## GuardianRED

Inderjit said:


> Why so defensive? Who has talked about cancelling the deal at this point? As of now, we are running around like headless chickens because we don't know what else is out there. The reporter is not the problem, your focus is lopsided. The reporter is doing his job, what should worry us is who else has access to the information & how much. There are people who have much bigger budgets to purchase information than any newspaper, it is what they have their hands on that should worry us. The reporter & his paper have done us a favour, the uncomfortable situation not withstanding. Without them, we may never have known how deep the leak was. The newspaper & the reporter are the least of our problems.



WOW
Where in the Job Description does it say that a reporter is doing is job by releasing restrictive documents in a public forum where EVERYONE can access it and THAT Can also harm his Own country's forces and their Readiness and that's a GOOD THING!!?

Isn't it better that he just report it and pass all the information to the right authority and have the leak investigated

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## Ankit Kumar 002

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/768816634094088192

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## egodoc222

Nilgiri said:


> Son, do you work in defence industry?


No.....I'm a defence enthusiast....!
It's a forum for everyone. No?
You can correct me if I'm wrong...but don't have to be rude about it!!

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## Indrajit

GuardianRED said:


> WOW
> Where in the Job Description does it say that a reporter is doing is job by releasing restrictive documents in a public forum where EVERYONE can access it and THAT Can also harm his Own country's forces and their Readiness and that's a GOOD THING!!?
> 
> Isn't it better that he just report it and pass all the information to the right authority and have the leak investigated



Maybe on whatever planet you live on, most reporters will do what this one has. You still though have got it wrong, what the reporter puts out is a small issue, the fact that this information is available means that parties with far more resources might have already got their hands on it and it they who pose the bigger challenge.


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## GuardianRED

Inderjit said:


> Maybe on whatever planet you live on, most reporters will do what this one has. You still though have got it wrong, what the reporter puts out is a small issue, the fact that this information is available means that parties with far more resources might have already got their hands on it and it they who pose the bigger challenge.


And u are so naive to still think THATS a Good thing that the reporter is doing! Check the link with the Good Reporter works like

http://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/31/sprj.irq.geraldo/

'*He gave away the big picture stuff'*

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## Indrajit

GuardianRED said:


> And u are so naive to still think THATS a Good thing that the reporter is doing! Check the link with the Good Reporter works like



Good..? Bad...?  Get real..!. This exists, so we must deal with it. Period.

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## PARIKRAMA

*Indian submarine documents stolen, not leaked - French source*


Aug 25 Documents relating to Indian submarines were stolen from French naval contractor DCNS and not leaked, a French government source said on Thursday, adding that *the information published so far showed only operational aspects of the submarines.*

India and France have opened investigations after The Australian newspaper published on Wednesday documents about its Scorpene submarines being built in India.

*"It is not a leak, it is theft," the source said. "We have not found any DCNS negligence, but we have identified some dishonesty by an individual."*

*The source said the documents looked to have been stolen in 2011 by a former French employee that had been fired while providing training in India on the use of the submarines.*

*The documents were not classified and at this stage appeared to only focus on the operational elements of the submarines, the source said*. (Reporting By Cyril Altmeyer; writing by John Irish; editing by Richard Lough)


*http://www.reuters.com/article/france-submarines-theft-idUSL8N1B63PD*

++
Enjoy

@Abingdonboy @anant_s @Nilgiri @GuardianRED @Vergennes @Ankit Kumar 002 @Spectre @hellfire @MilSpec @nair @others

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## Indrajit

PARIKRAMA said:


> *"It is not a leak, it is theft," the source said. *



The fact is this is just a distinction without a difference. How does it matter? The end result is the same. As far as absolving DCNS, how does it? Whether theft or leak, DCNS is the source. If this guy stole this in 2011 & DCNS knew it but didn't tell the Indian side, that would rate as a very big breach of trust.

In any case, why should anyone believe the self serving story put out by DCNS sources. Just like the Indian MoD, they have good reasons to protect their own backsides. Bucket of salt it is.....

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## ashok321

*Scorpene project: Stung by scandals since its inception*

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...-since-its-inception/articleshow/53851129.cms


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## Hellfire

@PARIKRAMA yeah i saw it on an australian newspaper. 

It is being pointed as a case of sabotaging australian deal, australia itself has said that indian leaks are also outdated

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## BON PLAN

hellfire said:


> @PARIKRAMA
> 
> But with network centric integration, a surfaced Kilo can technically access world wide web and post a rebuttal to your comment of being able to track him ...
> 
> He will say hello and challenge you to find him...bloody cheeky sods they are


A Kilo crew, even in surface, has a lot of other things to do than reading a newspaper....

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## PARIKRAMA

Inderjit said:


> The fact is this is just a distinction without a difference. How does it matter? The end result is the same. As far as absolving DCNS, how does it? Whether theft or leak, DCNS is the source. If this guy stole this in 2011 & DCNS knew it but didn't tell the Indian side, that would rate as a very big breach of trust.
> 
> In any case, why should anyone believe the self serving story put out by DCNS sources. Just like the Indian MoD, they have good reasons to protect their own backsides. Bucket of salt it is.....



Did anyone say here DCNS is absolved?
Is there any place or any public report saying DCNS knew about this stolen case from 2011 onwards?

this is precisely why this was asked by @GuardianRED





There will be actions but whether its penalties which leads to reputation loss of DCNS further is the big question mark.
IMHO since DCNS is 62% owned by French Government any further Reputation loss indeed erodes further the government credibility and thus i believe they will not like India to invoke cancellation clause or any kind of penalties.

That is the golden opportunity when DM MP should sound the war horn and arm twist the negotiation to get something much higher in technology than present setup and also not pay for it.

as for you whole posts in this thread, pray do tell me what solution do you propose under the present situation?
Shall we all held our heads down bcz our subs are now nude and dud? Pls enlighten us what steps we should take?

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## Hellfire

BON PLAN said:


> A Kilo crew, even in surface, has a lot of other things to do than reading a newspaper....



_Merci beaucoup! Pilote?_

@PARIKRAMA he is a mirage pilot if I recall correctly?

On topic:

I think we are is safe waters for now. Preliminary information says not much to worry on. DCNS, of course, will have to worry a lot as they are in default of the confidentiality clause. Interesting to see what configurational changes take place, now.

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## Indrajit

PARIKRAMA said:


> Did anyone say here DCNS is absolved?
> Is there any place or any public report saying DCNS knew about this stolen case from 2011 onwards?



Was referring to the article which cited sources claiming no negligence on DCNS's part.

The fact that they are suddenly pointing to 2011 as when the leak/theft took place & the Australian reporting also stating the same meant that this was known. Or do you think that they didn't know anything about any leak but managed to identify it to a theft by one former employee in 2011 all in under 24 hours?

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## sathya

Time to move on to joint ventures and indegenous makes ,
Aura.I

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## Ankit Kumar 002

sathya said:


> Time to move on to joint ventures and indegenous makes ,
> Aura.I


Yes, after build ing our own SSBN, owning ToT of Type 209, and Scorpene and also having much know how about Kilos.... the next SSK project should be as such.

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## Hellfire

@BON PLAN

What all are the functions of a crew in a surfaced _Kilo_ of Indian Navy? May I enquire?

*A Kilo crew, even in surface, has a lot of other things to do than reading a newspaper....*

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/sensitiv...ubmarines-leaked.445677/page-25#ixzz4IMPFQnWZ

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## ashok321

France, India play down risk of leaked submarine data

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## PARIKRAMA

so the sensationalism continues

























https://theaustralianatnewscorpau .files. wordpress.com/2016/08/system-and-operating-data. pdf


@hellfire @Ankit Kumar 002 @Abingdonboy @anant_s @Nilgiri 
What do you see here?
I see a operation manual.. true it should not be in public domain.. But does it compromise our security? I mean such a manual and details are given out to multiple navies .. even a RFI and a tender even if you fail will have such details.. So i am sure our adversaries already have such details.. so what exactly is new thats being shared? I think its just bcz gullible masses will now see how a "OIM" looks like from inside and will feel everything is out and nothing to hide anymore scenario..

Nice.. Loving the nonsense really..

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## Ankit Kumar 002

@PARIKRAMA which Sonar will be used upon Kalvari ? Because I do remember reading how the original sonar was not expected to perform that well here, so IN went for another one from Thales?

If its so , then I feel that the whole leak is based on outdated data, as now if the sonar hasn't been used anywhere , how does its performance in warm waters here are there released ?

Yes the boats of Chile and Malaysia flaunts TSM 2233 Mk 2 sonar , while there is another sonar names S Cube from Thales

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## Hellfire

PARIKRAMA said:


> What do you see here?
> I see a operation manual.. true it should not be in public domain.. But does it compromise our security? I mean such a manual and details are given out to multiple navies .. even a RFI and a tender even if you fail will have such details.. So i am sure our adversaries already have such details.. so what exactly is new thats being shared? I think its just bcz gullible masses will now see how a "OIM" looks like from inside and will feel everything is out and nothing to hide anymore scenario..
> 
> Nice.. Loving the nonsense really..



Yup. Operating manual. It will be accessible in general to all. A process to stall modernization program?

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## PARIKRAMA

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> @PARIKRAMA which Sonar will be used upon Kalvari ? Because I do remember reading how the original sonar was not expected to perform that well here, so IN went for another one from Thales?
> 
> If its so , then I feel that the whole leak is based on outdated data, as now if the sonar hasn't been used anywhere , how does its performance in warm waters here are there ?



Yes its outdated.. here is a picture i have posted before.. now with a much better clarity.. why these dox are not the real stuff for us






Notice the front - Design modification... thats for S-CUBE SONAR which is an upgraded version of TSM 2233 Mk 2 sonar
















Something more interesting .. Its from Peter Coates.. His blog has followed Sea 1000 very closely and is a good source of open source information for all UW stuff..





Oh Yes P75I as per the green link














Source: http://gentleseas.blogspot.in/2016/08/who-might-gain-from-leak-of-dcns.html

@Abingdonboy @MilSpec @Vergennes @SpArK @anant_s @Ankit Kumar 002 @hellfire

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## GuardianRED

PARIKRAMA said:


> so the sensationalism continues
> 
> View attachment 328827
> 
> View attachment 328828
> 
> View attachment 328829
> View attachment 328830
> View attachment 328831
> View attachment 328834
> View attachment 328837
> 
> https://theaustralianatnewscorpau .files. wordpress.com/2016/08/system-and-operating-data. pdf
> 
> 
> @hellfire @Ankit Kumar 002 @Abingdonboy @anant_s @Nilgiri
> What do you see here?
> I see a operation manual.. true it should not be in public domain.. But does it compromise our security? I mean such a manual and details are given out to multiple navies .. even a RFI and a tender even if you fail will have such details.. So i am sure our adversaries already have such details.. so what exactly is new thats being shared? I think its just bcz gullible masses will now see how a "OIM" looks like from inside and will feel everything is out and nothing to hide anymore scenario..
> 
> Nice.. Loving the nonsense really..


The First Set of released documents - the redacted was done professionally - the second set looks very hurried!. One can make a case that since the first set didn't get the desired effect. The second set was made to release ASAP with hap-hazard redaction. Come On Aussie reporters be professional in your work!

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## Ankit Kumar 002

Yes 6 units of S Cube Sonar were ordered from Thales.And Brazil too has ordered it. https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worldwide/defence/s-cube-integrated-submarine-sonar-suite

And guess what , none of the units has been operational , so the data about sonar is not applicable here at all.

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## PARIKRAMA

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> Yes 6 units of S Cube Sonar were ordered from Thales.And Brazil too has ordered it. https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worldwide/defence/s-cube-integrated-submarine-sonar-suite
> 
> And guess what , none of the units has been operational , so the data about sonar is not applicable here at all.


You want the sonar frequency range?
its 10Hz to 250 Khz









Source: https://www.thalesgroup.com/sites/default/files/asset/document/12895_thales_tus_gb_hd_p.pdf

Imagine if a simple presentation for public gives the range so a detailed presentation wont have much finer details of individual array ranges? will that be restricted to only manuals?



GuardianRED said:


> The First Set of released documents - the redacted was done professionally - the second set looks very hurried!. One can make a case that since the first set didn't get the desired effect. The second set was made to release ASAP with hap-hazard redaction. Come On Aussie reporters be professional in your work!


Solid point my friend.. its done asap to counter the way Indian gov and Indian Navy said its not important..

Now our media fellows will play it up .. check that main aussie author tweet

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## GuardianRED

PARIKRAMA said:


> You want the sonar frequency range?
> its 10Hz to 250 Khz
> View attachment 328888
> 
> View attachment 328889
> 
> 
> Source: https://www.thalesgroup.com/sites/default/files/asset/document/12895_thales_tus_gb_hd_p.pdf
> 
> Imagine if a simple presentation for public gives the range so a detailed presentation wont have much finer details of individual array ranges? will that be restricted to only manuals?
> 
> 
> Solid point my friend.. its done asap to counter the way Indian gov and Indian Navy said its not important..
> 
> Now our media fellows will play it up .. check that main aussie author tweet
> View attachment 328892
> 
> 
> View attachment 328893
> 
> 
> View attachment 328894
> 
> View attachment 328895


I do like Vishu Som , BUT this reaction to this and his reply to the aussie reporter , show he is happy about the leaks and envious of the reporter for his coup of the century! -

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## PARIKRAMA

GuardianRED said:


> I do like Vishu Som , BUT this reaction to this and his reply to the aussie reporter , show he is happy about the leaks and envious of the reporter for his coup of the century! -


*New Scorpene Details Show Vital Stats Are Out In Open: 10 Facts*
All India | Reported by Vishnu Som, Edited by Divyanshu Dutta Roy | Updated: August 25, 2016 21:22 IST
Here are the top 10 developments in this big story:

_*The sonar system, including the frequencies used by its key components, the Flank Array, the Sonar Intercept Receiver, the Distributed Array and the Active Array have been compromised.*_ All these systems work together to allow the submarine to detect enemy warships and submarines and attack them using torpedoes.
*The latest tranche of data appears to contradict the Ministry of Defence statement earlier today that there was no immediate security risk from the leak of secret documents detailing the capabilities of the Scorpene.*
The Australian newspaper, which reported on the leak two days ago,* posted new details this evening on its website but with sensitive info redacted.*
So though the documents prove that the classified information had been compromised, it is not in the public domain.
The documents posted earlier have been examined and do not pose any security compromise as the vital parameters have been blacked out," the defence ministry said in a statement earlier. However, it is The Australian which has redacted sensitive data. It is possible that these documents are also available to others.
Six Scorpenes designed by French shipmaker DCNS are being built in Mumbai. The first is expected to join service before the end of this year.
On Tuesday night, the Australian said it had 22,000 pages of details that exposed the combat capability of the submarines, being built at a cost of $3.5 billion.
The documents were stolen from DCNS and not leaked, an unnamed French government source said to news agency Reuters, adding that the information published so far shows only operational aspects of the submarines.
The source said the documents appeared to have been stolen in 2011 by a former French employee that had been fired while providing training in India on the use of the submarines.
India and France have opened investigations with Delhi asking for a detailed report.
http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/more...per-10-facts-1450394?pfrom=home-lateststories
++

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## GuardianRED

PARIKRAMA said:


> *New Scorpene Details Show Vital Stats Are Out In Open: 10 Facts*
> All India | Reported by Vishnu Som, Edited by Divyanshu Dutta Roy | Updated: August 25, 2016 21:22 IST
> Here are the top 10 developments in this big story:
> 
> _*The sonar system, including the frequencies used by its key components, the Flank Array, the Sonar Intercept Receiver, the Distributed Array and the Active Array have been compromised.*_ All these systems work together to allow the submarine to detect enemy warships and submarines and attack them using torpedoes.
> *The latest tranche of data appears to contradict the Ministry of Defence statement earlier today that there was no immediate security risk from the leak of secret documents detailing the capabilities of the Scorpene.*
> The Australian newspaper, which reported on the leak two days ago,* posted new details this evening on its website but with sensitive info redacted.*
> So though the documents prove that the classified information had been compromised, it is not in the public domain.
> The documents posted earlier have been examined and do not pose any security compromise as the vital parameters have been blacked out," the defence ministry said in a statement earlier. However, it is The Australian which has redacted sensitive data. It is possible that these documents are also available to others.
> Six Scorpenes designed by French shipmaker DCNS are being built in Mumbai. The first is expected to join service before the end of this year.
> On Tuesday night, the Australian said it had 22,000 pages of details that exposed the combat capability of the submarines, being built at a cost of $3.5 billion.
> The documents were stolen from DCNS and not leaked, an unnamed French government source said to news agency Reuters, adding that the information published so far shows only operational aspects of the submarines.
> The source said the documents appeared to have been stolen in 2011 by a former French employee that had been fired while providing training in India on the use of the submarines.
> India and France have opened investigations with Delhi asking for a detailed report.
> http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/more...per-10-facts-1450394?pfrom=home-lateststories
> ++


Where did he get the terms
_*"The Flank Array, the Sonar Intercept Receiver, the Distributed Array and the Active Array " *_are these mentioned in the docs?

Opps my bad , just read the leaked docs again .... BUT all this is mentioned in a Training Manual!

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## PARIKRAMA

GuardianRED said:


> Where did he get the terms
> _*"The Flank Array, the Sonar Intercept Receiver, the Distributed Array and the Active Array " *_are these mentioned in the docs?
> 
> Opps my bad , just read the leaked docs again .... BUT all this is mentioned in a Training Manual!


Check post #383 
2nd page and 3rd page.. 
Here again









*+++*

*More leaks sink Scorpene; bad timing for France trying to tie down troublesome Rafale deal*
By Manu Pubby, ET Bureau | Aug 25, 2016, 10.57 PM IST

NEW DELHI: More bad news for the Navy came on Thursday night with the Australian newspaper revealing more leaked content, including details of the submarine's underwater warfare systems. 

* The new documents put out by the Australian online newspaper come hours after the Indian Navy sought to downplay the issue, saying that there is no immediate reason for worry. *

* The new documents include specifics of the entire sonar system that is used by the sub to identify and target enemy vessels. These include details of the Flank Array, Sonar Intercept Receiver bands of operations and Active array transmission frequency. *

* The timing of the disclosure that thousands of pages of confidential information on India's Scorpene submarine have been leaked is particularly bad for France that is trying to finally tie down a troublesome deal for Rafale fighter jets and shipbuilder DCNS, which was hoping to get clearances for a foreign direct investment proposal this month. *

While the navy has been downplaying the seriousness of the breach - saying that necessary steps are being taken to mitigate probable security compromise - the leak has thrown questions on a DCNS FDI proposal worth over Rs 100 crore that hinges on the Scorpene project. 

* In fact, sources told the Economic Times that a team of senior officials from France was to visit New DELHI next week, hoping for final clearances in what would be the first bid in the defence sector for 100 per cent FDI under a new liberalized policy by the Modi government. *

*The FDI was for an Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) system that would have given greater underwater endurance to the Scorpene submarine. French company DCNS was banking on an additional order for three Scorpenes that would be fitted with AIP and had based its FDI pitch strategy accordingly. *
 *
"The leak has put up questions on how the capability of the current fleet on order has been undermined. That is being studied. So, any discussion on a new order would depend on the outcome of the study," a senior ministry official said. *

At the same time, there are worries that the leak is worse than was earlier expected with The Australian revealing more data. The newspaper has put out more redacted documents that detail the sensitive underwater warfare systems and sonar of the submarine. 

The Indian Navy, which said that documents shared by the newspaper as of now do not pose a security compromise as they have been redacted, has asked French authorities to act on the leak.* "The Government is examining if the impact of the information contained in the documents claimed to be available with the Australian sources is compromised. The detailed assessment of potential impact is being undertaken by a high level committee," a navy statement read. *

* The leak, which according to the Australian also contained files on French frigates and its Mistral amphibious vessels, could also have an impact on a DCNS proposal to sell landing platform docks to the Indian Navy. The Rs 20,000 crore LPD contract -- for which DCNS is partnering Reliance Defence -- is in its final stage with commercial offers expected to be opened this year. *

The timing of the leak also coincides with a delicate period on the Rafale fighter jet negotiations. After protracted discussions, which have lasted for over a year, the Indian and French side finally came to an agreement earlier this month to take forward the purchase of 36 fighter jets. A team from France is also expected to visit India next month to finalise the deal. However, the Indian side is now bound to raise questions on data protection and confidentiality from the French side. 

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...ublesome-rafale-deal/articleshow/53863495.cms

++

@Abingdonboy @Vergennes @anant_s @Ankit Kumar 002 @hellfire 
I said regarding the AIP fuel cell and parallel production for scorpenes in second line..





https://defence.pk/threads/sensitiv...submarines-leaked.445677/page-10#post-8607640

+++

I dont have any doubts that someone is trying their level best to ensure India is not getting the best technology with which in a decade she can challenge them in Air-Land-Sea capability..

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## Nilgiri

Abingdonboy said:


> @Nilgiri @PARIKRAMA



An example of what I was talking about earlier about neo-riffraff 



PARIKRAMA said:


> @Abingdonboy @Nilgiri @anant_s @Ankit Kumar 002 @GuardianRED @Vergennes @others
> 
> 
> Its a bit strange that Australian newspaper and the reporter going all out to raise the panic factor and sensationalize the expose.. His assertion now is that there is some confusion in India as nothing is blacked out in the dox what he has.
> View attachment 328714
> 
> 
> 
> essentially the jargons use for scorpenes by most media folks in Australia and people in India who follow them are
> - its nude now post leaks
> - computer simulations would lead to scorpene to shortfin sub systems linkage
> - China will fully negate Indian potential submarine fleet
> - China have already downloaded the material and will incorporate changes to their submarines to take out scorpenes
> - Shortfin is also compromised so nothing is there safe
> - Soryu is better bcz Japan who is so close to China in territory protects Soryu as a state secret and nothing ever is leaked out of Japanese program
> 
> I mean the fantastic level of ecstasy seen in the media is beyond what Sunny Leone can provide with her efforts to please any man...
> 
> 
> Not really.. The Kilo new version is called 636 and there was a proposal to buy 2 from Russian shipyard and make 10 in Reliance Defence deal for a total of a 12 sub deal. MOD did not consider this proposal. Chiefly the Kilo even though is a potent submarine is still an old design. The future generation submarines after kilo in teh world market comes with much better upgrades as well as from endurance perspective the AIP. On top, the value addition to our needs is negligible as Kilos are present with multiple operators so even a customised version wont help us much. The biggest factor perhaps comes from the fact that Reliance Defence quote was upwards of $400 Mn for individual submarine and talks of TOT transfer was there which are more added costs..Unfortunately the kilo upgrade package to this TOT thing is not at all winning any support from IN as well.
> 
> For IN they want a New Generation SSK in their hands of at least 15 in numbers to handle everything close to 2050-60 type of timeline.. Kilos will be far outdated by then..

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## PARIKRAMA

*New set of leaked Scorpene documents out*
*Top defence analyst allayed fears that it could compromise the security of the strategically important combat vessels*
Press Trust of India | New Delhi August 25, 2016 Last Updated at 22:57 IST

Australia's The Australian newspaper on Thursday uploaded a fresh tranche of leaked documents relating to information about operating instructions of underwater warfare system of the six Scorpene submarines which are being built in India by French firm DCNS.

However, a top defence analyst allayed fears that it could compromise the security of the strategically important combat vessels.

Like in the previous case, the newspaper has blacked out all details which it felt would compromise India's security interests.

*However, the new set of documents, with Indian Navy insignia on it and marked "Restricted Scorpene India", gives details about the sonar system of the submarines which is used to gather intelligence underwater.*

*It talks about a wide range of technical specifications of the sonars and at what degree and frequency it will function.*

*The documents detail the "Operating Instruction Manual", which talks about how to select a target for weapon firing, weapon configuration selection, among others.*

*Though the Navy has not yet officially reacted to the release of new documents, sources maintained that it does not compromise national security.*

They said the same information about a submarine was on many naval defence websites.

*"On the face of it, these documents are basic operating manual. You buy any goods from the market, it will come with an operating manual," defence analyst Commodore Uday Bhaskar (Retd), Director of Society of Policy Studies told PTI.*

*"If the question is whether tonight's revelation has made our submarines vulnerable, then the answer is no," he said.*

*"It is more like basic operating instructions for the user," he said.*

The paper said it has been told that the secret data was removed from DCNS by a former sub-contractor in 2011 and taken to a private company in Southeast Asia before being passed on to a branch of that company in a second Southeast Asian nation.

A disk containing the data filed was then posted in regular mail to a company in Australia.

DCNS is focusing its investigation on former employees and sub-contractors involved in the project. At this stage it is not thought that the leak came from India.

http://www.business-standard.com/ar...ed-scorpene-documents-out-116082501351_1.html

@Vergennes @BON PLAN @Abingdonboy @Nilgiri @anant_s @Ankit Kumar 002 @GuardianRED https://defence.pk/members/bregs.148509/

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## Nilgiri

egodoc222 said:


> No.....I'm a defence enthusiast....!
> It's a forum for everyone. No?
> You can correct me if I'm wrong...but don't have to be rude about it!!



Well then please don't jump to conclusions based on media reports. You have seen how the media operates right?

Give it some time and follow this thread and take on board what people like Parikrama and myself etc...post.

It requires a level and reasoned debate and interaction....with gratuitous amounts of time and analysis to make the best picture.

Jumping and saying "everything has been compromised" and that "scrap remaining subs" does a disservice to yourself and Indian posters in general.

A lot of my work, current and previous has intersected with the defence sector....and I know what the size of manuals, adjuncts and reports can be....and what the various clearances involved are (with the lowest levels being quite a formality than anything else)....so I do not like to speculate either way though knowing how western companies in general handle their highest level of document control, I for the moment am giving them and MOD India the benefit of the doubt in what they are releasing right now.

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## PARIKRAMA

@Spectre
Tagged you here..

As you were saying why not sensitive chiefly for few reasons. The thread already has much more materials collated here from open sources as well as what we could muster from our friends, colleagues, news reports, tweets and seniors/sources. The talk about frequenices/numbers being out is a pure misnomer. Our scorpene are being build over last 4 years when local MSMEs have stepped in to make own systems to replace original systems which are not there in any manual. so a lot more customization happened. Heck those manuals will be finalised post sea trials this month and formal induction of first sub kalavari In October 2016.

Acoustic signature is not yet added in our IFF library so no one can know other than the plain vanilla option in library records obtained from other sources or other navies. SO the so called stealth angle is never compromised nor it will be ever compromised especially since warm waters in this region provide additional natural cover.(again covered in this thread somewhere)

Let me give a simple example to highlight few points
Consider the Combat System Subtics




That same subtics is there with Scorpenes as well.
The basic operating manual will cover the same points already known on subtics to all sides.

What it will not tell: The processing power, the sensors via which integrated data points are fed into the combat system, the algos, ect are much better than previous versions used in the above table format. on top, our HWT is not yet integrated which is suppose to be F21 implying the response of the system and additional things are yet to be encoded to get proper response time as well as range of combat, guidance of torpedoes etc.

Consider say now the active passive sonar suite S-Cube
The leak talked about all array forms which are also there in Thales UW presentation posted here in this thread. Yet we know the range and i quoting it here 10Hz to 250 KHz from the same public document.. The military RFI or tender has more specific numbers in the same range and 99% of the whole world submarines also use the same band of frequencies for detection. Even the angle of coverage is given in such detailed presentation under tender conditions submitted to every competition won or failed..obtaining such information clandestinely is even more easier than such buying from a ex officer.

BTW there are additional customization in S-Cube Suite. I wont write beyond on this. Bcz doing that will surely endanger the sub specs. But rest assured we have been able to use a highly advanced and customised version of this S- Cube and wont share that with any other customer suites

Now lets take a case closer home. Do check DRDO Tender dox. What you get there is

Engineering drawings
Metallurgy details including elemental composition
All technical specifications including electronic ranges to pressure ranges to what not
connection into live projects
Now there was never an alarm raised for that till now.. When i see the tender dox of today or old ones i knw exactly what systems and sub systems are there, whats the tech specs pertaining to its work. Considering a missile or Electro Opto piece or even a subsystem for LCA or a recently tested Glide Bomb design and wings to what not things..

Pray, do tell us are they not dangerous.. if so, then why our media and forces never expressed their concern and panicked into the same.

I am not saying nothing significant is there.. Its restricted it means for authorized personnel only.. but i will not buy the argument that our scorpenes are compromised.

Now coming to DCNS, the official response to DCNS is proper. Dont go by what newspaper quoted. The official response as per their press release is this




Kindly see the date




http://en.dcnsgroup.com/news/press-information/

Now shall we consider the spokesperson quoted in newspaper as authentic or the ones listed in press information release in their website.

If you see The Australian newspaper work and read the whole story its clear that they are using India as a shoulder support to fire the gun. Its in our Scorpene expense the whole game is being played.

I still support nothing extremely alarming has been leaked. But yes i will still consider the authentic probe to complete and give that 1 % additional verdict to make it 100% sure that our subs are not duds.



.

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## Aero

PARIKRAMA said:


> Kilos will be far outdated by then..


Depends more on effectiveness of crew & their training. Don't you think?

https://theaviationist.com/2015/03/05/us-aircraft-carrier-sunk-by-subs/
https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/2y47ix/old_french_sub_sinks_us_carrier_group/

(Just to point out)

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## Spectre

PARIKRAMA said:


> @Spectre
> Tagged you here..
> 
> As you were saying why not sensitive chiefly for few reasons. The thread already has much more materials collated here from open sources as well as what we could muster from our friends, colleagues, news reports, tweets and seniors/sources. The talk about frequenices/numbers being out is a pure misnomer. Our scorpene are being build over last 4 years when local MSMEs have stepped in to make own systems to replace original systems which are not there in any manual. so a lot more customization happened. Heck those manuals will be finalised post sea trials this month and formal induction of first sub kalavari In October 2016.
> 
> Acoustic signature is not yet added in our IFF library so no one can know other than the plain vanilla option in library records obtained from other sources or other navies. SO the so called stealth angle is never compromised nor it will be ever compromised especially since warm waters in this region provide additional natural cover.(again covered in this thread somewhere)
> 
> Let me give a simple example to highlight few points
> Consider the Combat System Subtics
> View attachment 328947
> 
> That same subtics is there with Scorpenes as well.
> The basic operating manual will cover the same points already known on subtics to all sides.
> 
> What it will not tell: The processing power, the sensors via which integrated data points are fed into the combat system, the algos, ect are much better than previous versions used in the above table format. on top, our HWT is not yet integrated which is suppose to be F21 implying the response of the system and additional things are yet to be encoded to get proper response time as well as range of combat, guidance of torpedoes etc.
> 
> Consider say now the active passive sonar suite S-Cube
> The leak talked about all array forms which are also there in Thales UW presentation posted here in this thread. Yet we know the range and i quoting it here 10Hz to 250 KHz from the same public document.. The military RFI or tender has more specific numbers in the same range and 99% of the whole world submarines also use the same band of frequencies for detection. Even the angle of coverage is given in such detailed presentation under tender conditions submitted to every competition won or failed..obtaining such information clandestinely is even more easier than such buying from a ex officer.
> 
> BTW there are additional customization in S-Cube Suite. I wont write beyond on this. Bcz doing that will surely endanger the sub specs. But rest assured we have been able to use a highly advanced and customised version of this S- Cube and wont share that with any other customer suites
> 
> Now lets take a case closer home. Do check DRDO Tender dox. What you get there is
> 
> Engineering drawings
> Metallurgy details including elemental composition
> All technical specifications including electronic ranges to pressure ranges to what not
> connection into live projects
> Now there was never an alarm raised for that till now.. When i see the tender dox of today or old ones i knw exactly what systems and sub systems are there, whats the tech specs pertaining to its work. Considering a missile or Electro Opto piece or even a subsystem for LCA or a recently tested Glide Bomb design and wings to what not things..
> 
> Pray, do tell us are they not dangerous.. if so, then why our media and forces never expressed their concern and panicked into the same.
> 
> I am not saying nothing significant is there.. Its restricted it means for authorized personnel only.. but i will not buy the argument that our scorpenes are compromised.
> 
> Now coming to DCNS, the official response to DCNS is proper. Dont go by what newspaper quoted. The official response as per their press release is this
> View attachment 328950
> 
> Kindly see the date
> View attachment 328951
> 
> http://en.dcnsgroup.com/news/press-information/
> 
> Now shall we consider the spokesperson quoted in newspaper as authentic or the ones listed in press information release in their website.
> 
> If you see The Australian newspaper work and read the whole story its clear that they are using India as a shoulder support to fire the gun. Its in our Scorpene expense the whole game is being played.
> 
> I still support nothing extremely alarming has been leaked. But yes i will still consider the authentic probe to complete and give that 1 % additional verdict to make it 100% sure that our subs are not duds.
> 
> 
> 
> .



If you see the redacted information headers, you will get the idea why redaction was necessary. The problem is that raw info was not redacted and who else besides the newspaper has access to it.

DCNS and MoD can't be fully out because of various reasons chief among them the state of affairs of IN and the necessity of these subs.

While it won't do anyone good to make too much noise as things are just fluid and if possible leak can be plugged even now if all the exit points are investigated and covered but the clock is running out and if by end of August it doesn't happen then for sure we are in trouble.

P.S. Just look at the new set of redacted info and you will get the idea and this is not taking into account majority of the info which is still unreleased.

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## PARIKRAMA

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To MAGICBULLET & SPYKAR: Alright, let’s put matters into perspective in point-form: 

1) The DCNS oriorietary data data, running to 22,400 pages, includes 4,457 pages on underwater sensors, 4,209 pages om above-water sensors, 4,301 pages combat management systems, 493 pages on torpedo launch systems, 6,841 pages on communications systems and 2,138 on navigation systems.* This data caters to the Scorpene SSK, Mistral-class LPD & Fremm-class FFGs, & NOT JUST ABOUT SCORPENE SSK ONLY. Hence very few PDF documents have been shared by THE AUSTRALIAN newspaper so far, despite the voluminous data reportably available to it. *

2) *Secondly, the fact that the data has been redacted indficates that the newspaper first shared it with the Australian ASIS & based upon the latter’s advice, the redaction was done*. 

3) Now, how did the data reach the Australian newspaper & why? *This is the most interesting part, because it has NOTHING to do with DCNS’ Shortfin Barracuda design (since the RAN will go not with SUBTICS or F-21 HWTs, but with ther CMS from Lockheed Martin & HWTs from Honeywell). Apparently there was a DCNS employee (a retired officer of the French Navy) who was retrenched after the JV between DCNS & NAVANTIA was dissolved in the previous decade, with DCNS then promoting its own CM-2000 Scorpene SSK design & NAVANTIA of Spain promoting its S-80 Scorpene design. The retrenched officer reportedly became a consultant & was actively involved in promoting the S-80 Scorpene SSK for the Indonesian Navy (TNI-AL) & it was the TNI-AL that wanted comparative data for both contenders at that time (especially since neighbouring Malaysia operates two CM-2000 Scorpenes), the S-80, CM-2000, & the Class 209/Type 1400 SSK were being proposed by Daewoo Shipbuilding & Marine Engineering (DSME), before making a final decision. The TNI-AL in December 2011 awarded DSME a US$1.1 billion contract for the construction of the three Class 209/Type 1500 SSKs. At around the samne time, the local Indonesian agent & the retrenched DCNS employee who were promoting the S-80 Scorpene from NAVANTIA probably got in touch with Australian authorities to promote this design for RAN. That’s how the design/performance data package data ended up in Australia & some local Asutralian consultant is the most probable source/supplier of this data to the newspaper. All this will surface in the coming days.*

Now let’s turn towards the dire predictions from some ‘desi’ patrakars & self-styled security experts who are more well known for their reliance on fictional flicks of Tom Clancy for ‘enlightenment’ & who never tire of going into spectacularly outrageous meltdowns, which in turn produce comic relief to all of us quite often.

Cont’d below…

August 26, 2016 at 3:11 AM





Prasun K. Sengupta said...
It seems most are alarmed about the nature of the compromised data that includes propulsion and cavitation data, acoustics at ultra-slow speed, combat system acoustics, drive turbine sound profile, shifting sonar profile during rapid dive, frequencies at snorkling and shallow depth, acoustic dynamics shift between shallow stationary float and snorkeling depth. 

*In the real world, all such data are programmable, i.e. only after conducting exhaustive hydo-acoustic surveys through 2 rounds of extensive sea-trials can accurate figures be gauged & they in turn are used for deriving 2 types of acoustic signatures through computer modelling: the distinctive signature & the manipulated signature. Only after this does the process of designing customer-specific acoustic rubber tiles begin. This process is known as signature management. Following this, the SSK;s lead boat goes out to sea for sea-trials during which the definitive database of the SSK’s hydro-acoustic data is generated. This then gets programmed into the servers of both the CMS & the integrated platform management system (IPMS). *

*Thus, based on the above explanation in layman’s terms, it is 100% guaranteed that the specs/performance parameters outlined in the PDF files disclosed by THE AUSTRALIAN newspaper pertain to the CM-2000 SSK MINUS its coating of acoustic rubber tiles & therefore poses no risk or threat to any CM-2000 Scorpene SSK of the IN. **In fact, I had a conversation during DEFEXPO 2016 with the Indian OEM that makes such tiles & I was told that the IN will not place orders for such tiles unless & until the structural integrity & hydro-acoustic database of the 1st MDL-built Scorpene has been established/generated through the 1st round of sea-trials. Onlt after this will the customisation of Scorpene-specific rubber tiles & installation of additional vibration-isolators will commence & the 2nd round of sea-trials will commence & based on the results obtained, the databases of the CMS & IPMS will be further updated & refined. These final figures will be totally different from what’s today in the public domain.*

So, it’s high time all the 'desi’ commentators stoped running amock like headless chicken, & instead they ought to spend more time going into the detail before reaching sound, logical conclusions.

August 26, 2016 at 3:12 AM

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## Nilgiri

PARIKRAMA said:


> 3) Now, how did the data reach the Australian newspaper & why? *This is the most interesting part, because it has NOTHING to do with DCNS’ Shortfin Barracuda design (since the RAN will go not with SUBTICS or F-21 HWTs, but with ther CMS from Lockheed Martin & HWTs from Honeywell). Apparently there was a DCNS employee (a retired officer of the French Navy) who was retrenched after the JV between DCNS & NAVANTIA was dissolved in the previous decade, with DCNS then promoting its own CM-2000 Scorpene SSK design & NAVANTIA of Spain promoting its S-80 Scorpene design. The retrenched officer reportedly became a consultant & was actively involved in promoting the S-80 Scorpene SSK for the Indonesian Navy (TNI-AL) & it was the TNI-AL that wanted comparative data for both contenders at that time (especially since neighbouring Malaysia operates two CM-2000 Scorpenes), the S-80, CM-2000, & the Class 209/Type 1400 SSK were being proposed by Daewoo Shipbuilding & Marine Engineering (DSME), before making a final decision. The TNI-AL in December 2011 awarded DSME a US$1.1 billion contract for the construction of the three Class 209/Type 1500 SSKs. At around the samne time, the local Indonesian agent & the retrenched DCNS employee who were promoting the S-80 Scorpene from NAVANTIA probably got in touch with Australian authorities to promote this design for RAN. That’s how the design/performance data package data ended up in Australia & some local Asutralian consultant is the most probable source/supplier of this data to the newspaper. All this will surface in the coming days.*



Bro has anyone revealed if the identity of this retired officer known to French authorities?

@Vergennes @Taygibay @BON PLAN

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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> Exploiting the maximum
> moment in the sun
> sensationalism
> teasing
> surprises
> trying to be more popular
> more relevant
> yup here it is
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 328718
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/768802428405768192
> I am sure DCNS is going to take this guy to cleaners for some legal loophole someplace..


When you think about it, wtf is this guy playing at?

Usually the media can only publish things that have been obtained through such means and are secret in nature IF there is a public benefit to such documents being made public. I fail to see where the public interest is in such details being splashed on the pages of the press. I'm not sure about the laws in Australia but I would think there was a pretty decent chance of going after this media outlet for what they have done here. Furthermore, it appears as though these operational manuals have been stolen from DCNS and thus the Australian is aiding a criminal.

Let's not forget that Edward Snowdon is a wanted man and Bradley Manning is facing a life sentance for doing things very similar to this.

I'd hope DCNS are pouring millions into a lawsuit fund as we speak @Vergennes

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## PARIKRAMA

Nilgiri said:


> Bro has anyone revealed if the identity of this retired officer known to French authorities?
> 
> @Vergennes @Taygibay @BON PLAN


Dont know yet but i guess they might have narrowed it down to limited suspects.. should see some arrest formally or at least saying we have successfully identified the person who stole the data.



Abingdonboy said:


> Usually the media can only publish things that have been obtained through such means and are secret in nature IF there is a public benefit to such documents being made public. I fail to see where the public interest is in such details being splashed on the pages of the press. I'm not sure about the laws in Australia but I would think there was a pretty decent chance of going after this media outlet for what they have done here. Furthermore, it appears as though these operational manuals have been stolen from DCNS and thus the Australian is aiding a criminal.
> 
> Let's not forget that Edward Snowdon is a wanted man and Bradley Manning is facing a life sentance for doing things very similar to this.
> 
> I'd hope DCNS are pouring millions into a lawsuit fund as we speak @Vergennes


DCNS said its stolen implying now stolen property is being leaked without permission.. You knw whats coming next.. a big fat lawsuit, a battery of lawyers and France, India and Australia- 3 governments whipping this newspaper's ***.. it will happen whether clandestinely or openly, needs to be seen.

I am sure DCNS will make an example to ensure future thefts and such media circus wont get repeated.

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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> You want the sonar frequency range?
> its 10Hz to 250 Khz
> View attachment 328888
> 
> View attachment 328889
> 
> 
> Source: https://www.thalesgroup.com/sites/default/files/asset/document/12895_thales_tus_gb_hd_p.pdf
> 
> Imagine if a simple presentation for public gives the range so a detailed presentation wont have much finer details of individual array ranges? will that be restricted to only manuals?
> 
> 
> Solid point my friend.. its done asap to counter the way Indian gov and Indian Navy said its not important..
> 
> Now our media fellows will play it up .. check that main aussie author tweet
> View attachment 328892
> 
> 
> View attachment 328893
> 
> 
> View attachment 328894
> 
> View attachment 328895


Wow, the Indian media really are exposing themselves for what they are, they are so hungry for their precious TRPs that they will openly praise the release of documents that could have a harmful effect on their nation's national security.

This is scary behaviour, they have no shame or any fear of acting so brazenly outside of the public interest. 

When this is the media, who is going to hold wrongdoers to account?

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## Kinetic

Dont worry DCNS will replace them with latest sonars.

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## Rafi

Abingdonboy said:


> You wish.
> 
> 
> How exactly? Other than, "becasue France"?
> 
> 
> Indians and their dramatic tendancies....
> 
> 
> @PARIKRAMA thanks for the detailed updates bro, you are a real asset. I wish you could become India's single source for defence related news, the hacks that try to pass for "defence journalists" in India are not just dissapointingly bad but downright dangerous in these kind of situations where one needs to be very technically minded and able to understand a nuanced picture.
> 
> @Vergennes @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN eagerly awaiting the French Govt/DCNS response to this (beyond mere words). This IS economic warfare and we all know the French aren't ones to take such provocation lightly. There needs to be heads rolling...



we hav


Abingdonboy said:


> You wish.
> 
> 
> How exactly? Other than, "becasue France"?
> 
> 
> Indians and their dramatic tendancies....
> 
> 
> @PARIKRAMA thanks for the detailed updates bro, you are a real asset. I wish you could become India's single source for defence related news, the hacks that try to pass for "defence journalists" in India are not just dissapointingly bad but downright dangerous in these kind of situations where one needs to be very technically minded and able to understand a nuanced picture.
> 
> @Vergennes @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN eagerly awaiting the French Govt/DCNS response to this (beyond mere words). This IS economic warfare and we all know the French aren't ones to take such provocation lightly. There needs to be heads rolling...



Peccavi


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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> Check post #383
> 2nd page and 3rd page..
> Here again
> View attachment 328901
> View attachment 328902
> 
> 
> *+++*
> 
> *More leaks sink Scorpene; bad timing for France trying to tie down troublesome Rafale deal*
> By Manu Pubby, ET Bureau | Aug 25, 2016, 10.57 PM IST
> 
> NEW DELHI: More bad news for the Navy came on Thursday night with the Australian newspaper revealing more leaked content, including details of the submarine's underwater warfare systems.
> 
> * The new documents put out by the Australian online newspaper come hours after the Indian Navy sought to downplay the issue, saying that there is no immediate reason for worry. *
> 
> * The new documents include specifics of the entire sonar system that is used by the sub to identify and target enemy vessels. These include details of the Flank Array, Sonar Intercept Receiver bands of operations and Active array transmission frequency. *
> 
> * The timing of the disclosure that thousands of pages of confidential information on India's Scorpene submarine have been leaked is particularly bad for France that is trying to finally tie down a troublesome deal for Rafale fighter jets and shipbuilder DCNS, which was hoping to get clearances for a foreign direct investment proposal this month. *
> 
> While the navy has been downplaying the seriousness of the breach - saying that necessary steps are being taken to mitigate probable security compromise - the leak has thrown questions on a DCNS FDI proposal worth over Rs 100 crore that hinges on the Scorpene project.
> 
> * In fact, sources told the Economic Times that a team of senior officials from France was to visit New DELHI next week, hoping for final clearances in what would be the first bid in the defence sector for 100 per cent FDI under a new liberalized policy by the Modi government. *
> 
> *The FDI was for an Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) system that would have given greater underwater endurance to the Scorpene submarine. French company DCNS was banking on an additional order for three Scorpenes that would be fitted with AIP and had based its FDI pitch strategy accordingly. *
> 
> *"The leak has put up questions on how the capability of the current fleet on order has been undermined. That is being studied. So, any discussion on a new order would depend on the outcome of the study," a senior ministry official said. *
> 
> At the same time, there are worries that the leak is worse than was earlier expected with The Australian revealing more data. The newspaper has put out more redacted documents that detail the sensitive underwater warfare systems and sonar of the submarine.
> 
> The Indian Navy, which said that documents shared by the newspaper as of now do not pose a security compromise as they have been redacted, has asked French authorities to act on the leak.* "The Government is examining if the impact of the information contained in the documents claimed to be available with the Australian sources is compromised. The detailed assessment of potential impact is being undertaken by a high level committee," a navy statement read. *
> 
> * The leak, which according to the Australian also contained files on French frigates and its Mistral amphibious vessels, could also have an impact on a DCNS proposal to sell landing platform docks to the Indian Navy. The Rs 20,000 crore LPD contract -- for which DCNS is partnering Reliance Defence -- is in its final stage with commercial offers expected to be opened this year. *
> 
> The timing of the leak also coincides with a delicate period on the Rafale fighter jet negotiations. After protracted discussions, which have lasted for over a year, the Indian and French side finally came to an agreement earlier this month to take forward the purchase of 36 fighter jets. A team from France is also expected to visit India next month to finalise the deal. However, the Indian side is now bound to raise questions on data protection and confidentiality from the French side.
> 
> http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...ublesome-rafale-deal/articleshow/53863495.cms
> 
> ++
> 
> @Abingdonboy @Vergennes @anant_s @Ankit Kumar 002 @hellfire
> I said regarding the AIP fuel cell and parallel production for scorpenes in second line..
> 
> View attachment 328903
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/sensitive-data-of-indian-navy’s-scorpene-class-submarines-leaked.445677/page-10#post-8607640
> 
> +++
> 
> I dont have any doubts that someone is trying their level best to ensure India is not getting the best technology with which in a decade she can challenge them in Air-Land-Sea capability..


Hmmmm, this makes the timing of this even more questionable. So within the next few weeks:

- A team from DCNS were to visit India to offer their AIP tech as part of the follow-on tranche of Scorpenes (possible 6-9 boats)
- A team was to come to finalise the Rafale deal


I hope the Indian MoD's counter intel folk are keeping the DM and PM up to date on just who the hell is pulling the strings behind the scenes. This for sure looks like an attempt to majorly disrupt Indian-French ties and there are tens of billions of USD on the line as well as a strategic partnership that is just starting to take off.

I'd hope the French (who are being directly targetted here) react to what is, in their own words, economic warfare in the strongest terms. Someone is trying to hurt India and France HARSHLY here.
@BON PLAN @Picdelamirand-oil @Taygibay @Vergennes @Nilgiri @MilSpec @anant_s @Levina @PARIKRAMA 



Rafi said:


> we hav
> 
> 
> Peccavi


Keep dreaming.

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## Kinetic

*How many of you think that DCNS did not share Agosta-90B's details with India????*

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## Rafi

Abingdonboy said:


> Hmmmm, this makes the timing of this even more questionable. So within the next few weeks:
> 
> - A team from DCNS were to visit India to offer their AIP tech as part of the follow-on tranche of Scorpenes (possible 6-9 boats)
> - A team was to come to finalise the Rafale deal
> 
> 
> I hope the Indian MoD's counter intel folk are keeping the DM and PM up to date on just who the hell is pulling the strings behind the scenes. This for sure looks like an attempt to majorly disrupt Indian-French ties and there are tens of billions of USD on the line as well as a strategic partnership that is just starting to take off.
> 
> I'd hope the French (who are being directly targetted here) react to what is, in their own words, economic warfare in the strongest terms. Someone is trying to hurt India and France HARSHLY here.
> @BON PLAN @Picdelamirand-oil @Taygibay @Vergennes @Nilgiri @MilSpec @anant_s @Levina @PARIKRAMA
> 
> 
> Keep dreaming.



Will not, my little indian friend, peace out.


----------



## Indrajit

Abingdonboy said:


> Let's not forget that Edward Snowdon is a wanted man and Bradley Manning is facing a life sentance for doing things very similar to this.
> 
> I'd hope DCNS are pouring millions into a lawsuit fund as we speak





PARIKRAMA said:


> DCNS said its stolen implying now stolen property is being leaked without permission.. You knw whats coming next.. a big fat lawsuit, a battery of lawyers and France, India and Australia- 3 governments whipping this newspaper's ***.. it will happen whether clandestinely or openly, needs to be seen.
> 
> I am sure DCNS will make an example to ensure future thefts and such media circus wont get repeated.



The newspaper & the reporter are not going to be in the line of fire, the only one who could be gone after is the supposed ex-employee of DCNS. Both Bradley Manning & Edward Snowden were the direct sources & were guilty of removing classified material. No news outlet who carried the material they put out were/are in the line of fire. Doesn't work that way.


----------



## ashok321

*The Australian uploads new set of Scorpene documents on website:* 'The Australian' newspaper had* uploaded a new set of documents detailing Indian Scorpene submarine's underwater warfare system* on its website.

More than 22,000 pages of top secret data on the capabilities of six highly advanced submarines being built for the Indian Navy in Mumbai in collaboration with a French company have been leaked, ringing alarm bells on Wednesday in the security establishment.

The Australian has been told that the data on the Scorpene was written in France for India in 2011 and is suspected of being removed from France in that same year by a former French Navy officer who was at that time a DCNS subcontractor.


----------



## Archie

BON PLAN said:


> 3 billion $ was the budget for Scorpene if I remember well. The final amount is higher.
> 
> And it's not 38 billion $ far Australia, but 38 billions € ... = 50 billions A$ !
> On these the french part is presented by french newspaper to be 8 billions. Half of the total would be the american part (it seems huge) . The rest is for Australia work.



I agree,
their was cost escalations,
Final amount was Rs 23500 Crores or approx 3.5 Billion USD as per current exchange rate

Still 50 Billion AUD is a massive amount to pay for just SSKs

India too is looking to order another 6 SSKs for an estimated 10 Billion USD, to replace 4 U209 and 2 Kilos that will reach expiry in 2027, while the Scorpenes currently being inducted will replace 6 Kilos Inducted between 1986-1990


----------



## PARIKRAMA

*Heres the wrap from Australia and France*
+++
Something interesting going on for last 2 days away from the mockery of "news reports"
*August 25th*

DCNS & @UNSW boost collaboration on research & development #submarines #innovation #ausdef














and

Good to be meeting with @theamwu today to discuss how to develop the workforce to build 12 #submarines in #Adelaide





AMWU - Australia Manufacturers Workers Union

Source: https://twitter.com/DCNSAustralia

_So In Australia its biz as normal and no one cared for the so called "leaks" and proceeded like normal... 

Did not i say The newspaper and leaks were using Indian Scorpenes as the excuse to score brownie points..

+++_
A complaint against X was filed Thursday in Paris by the French shipbuilder DCNS for breach of trust, receiving stolen property and accessory after the massive leak of confidential technical information on its Scorpene submarines, have we learned from source judiciary.

The complaint is examined by the prosecutor, who will decide whether to open a preliminary investigation, to entrust the investigation to the investigating judges or take no action.

Source: http://www.20minutes.fr/economie/19...-plainte-contre-x-apres-fuite-massive-donnees

+++

*Scorpene: what is the real value of the leaked documents?*

The leak of a technical document 22,400 pages on Scorpene submarines sold by DCNS India causes a storm in the French industrial and among its customers, particularly in India and Australia. However, the real value of the disseminated data to be defined. *According to two experts interviewed by **the sea , it could be in fact a minor.*

One of the key elements of the next few days will be to accurately determine the value of the document, the Australian daily _The Australian_ revealed the leak, in an article published on August 24 in the morning, that is to say in the middle of the night in Paris.

So, _The Australian_ announced he could consult a document describing the technical characteristics of Scorpene submarines of 22 400 pages. A considerable amount equivalent to 16 times _Fighting Fleets_ .To support his point, _The Australian_ details the contents, pagination chapters, discusses some technical aspects described and published a dozen pages with some specific data printed were masked at the initiative of the newspaper.


*What content?*

Remains to know who is the author of the leak, which was the addressee, but especially that it contains exactly. Which could help contain the fire which was immediately declared in Bombay and Canberra.

*In India, the procedure for three months to the first sea trials of the first of six submarines whose plans are now in nature, new spearhead of the Indian sub-marinade compete with his Pakistani neighbors (also equipped DCNS, but with an earlier generation of submarines Agosta) and especially Chinese. A series of six vessels under construction in Mumbai with French assistance (and four years late), for a contract of $ 3.9 billion, an follow on being more under negotiation. It is perhaps the first target of mischief. *

*flipping can*

In Canberra, was selected on April 26, the supply of DCNS to carry, Australia, 12 derivatives submarines, diesel-electric version of the Barracuda French nuclear submarine. A giant contract that spans 25 years and 50 billion Australian dollars, or 34 billion euros, of which 8 billion euros to DCNS.But at this stage, we are still in exclusive negotiations. Firm contracts have yet to be negotiated. In fact, a reversal is possible.

Several French intelligence services were missioned on the case. And at DCNS is one of the priorities of the moment, which will much better, if any, to reassure customers (Chile and Malaysia, the Scorpene already sailing, India, Australia) and prospects (Norway , Poland).

*If we judge by the excerpts posted by The Australian , few, the document seems to be the instruction manual or the general presentation leaflet.*

*"P as particularly sensitive"*

Documents of this type, _a priori_ made jointly by industrial and marine user can move through many hands: crews, technicians and subcontractors. Some data and measures are mentioned (but have been hidden by the newspaper). Different patterns of equipment are presented, eg bow sonar, one of the secrets that are equipment. That said, a diagram does not give the performance of sonar.

*The sailor interviewed two experts. Both of them had access to what was posted online by The Australian , that is to say only a few pages. "It is certainly not immune to the presence of data really classified crept into the ground. But unless that is the case, the type of document submitted does not seem particularly sensitive " , says one of our sources.*

*Another expert believes that "what one discovers contains nothing that is truly protected in any case nothing is objectively known to anyone with some curiosity on the subject. The attached documents are synthetic and curves third octave (note: presented to illustrate the ship radiated noise) express nothing strictly secret. The device descriptions are generic. It must also consider that the document is dated and nothing says that it is not technically further. "*

*The fact that electromagnetic, magnetic and infrared characteristics of the submarine are described"not enough to allow the detection of a submarine" . Torpedo launch systems are considered"known" , and "for the conditions of use periscopes" .*

Source: http://www.lemarin.fr/secteurs-acti...-quelle-reelle-valeur-des-documents-divulgues

+++
*DCNS: "data leaks" on the subs are they serious?*
BRUNO TREVIDIC ALAIN RUELLO 24/08 16:14Updated at 18:34

*The documents released by an Australian newspaper on French submarines DCNS sold to India would not be classified "confidential defense" and the data disclosed not so sensitive as that.*

*Disclosure of major defense secrets involving national security or simple commercial low blow aimed at undermining the reputation of a player in the French defense industry? The question remains after the publication by the newspaper "The Australian" of various documents detailing the characteristics technical Scorpene type submarines sold by the French DCNS India.*

According to the Australian newspaper, the mass flight of _"secret documents"_ , which represent a total of over 22,400 pages - the origin of which is naturally not unveiled - expose to light the secrets of a "bestseller "DNCS and of future flagship of the Indian navy, the first of six copies, made in India, due to enter service in the coming months. The level of underwater noise emissions, the range and depth, its magnetic signature and electronic magnetic, would be well detailed in detail in these documents, including "The Australian" published excerpts on its website.

*The "contract of the century" challenged?*
What cause concern not only among Indian customers Scorpene, but also among the other clients of the French shipbuilder, chief among them the Australian navy. In April, Australia had indeed chosen the latest DCNS, the Barracuda to renew its fleet of submarines. A market worth 34.5 billion euros over twenty years, presented as the deal of the century for DCNS , but still to be finalized by the end of the year or early 2017, according to a source close to the matter .
These commercial papers, which are not confidential within the meaning of secret defense. Suffice to say that these revelations fall at the worst time for DCNS, while the French company is engaged in the phase of final negotiations of the various contracts of this vast project. And although the Barracuda chosen by Australia has very little to do with Indian Scorpene, it does not need more to the Australian newspaper said that the leaks could jeopardize the choice of Barracuda.

*Commercial documents*
A finding an excessive nothing. Not only future Barracuda Australian offer much better performance than the Scorpene, but their weapons systems and much of their equipment will be totally different because they will be supplied by US companies.

*Moreover, the documents revealed by "The Australian" perhaps are not as secret as the newspaper says. The few online documents are apparently extracts from technical manuals provided by manufacturers, DCNS and Thales, in Indian customer, Restricted, as reported on the "restricted" information set in the header, but it is not classified documents in the French defense official typology.*

*During pre-investigation*
*The Ministry of Defence distinguishes indeed 5 level of confidentiality, "restricted", "confidential defense", "confidential defense France Special", "secret" and "top secret defense". But the documents presented on the site even not fit in the first category. "These are commercial documents, which have not confidential within the meaning of defense secret" , says one military source French.*

remains to verify that all documents sent to the Australian newspaper are the same barrel. This is probably the subject of the ongoing investigation, mentioned by the spokesman of DCNS and Thales to explain the absence of official statements. But Wednesday morning, no one was able to identify who among the security services, was in charge of this investigation. And, according to our information, no complaints or judicial investigation has been initiated, thus leaving casts further doubt on the seriousness of the damage suffered.

*Australian and Indian authorities temper*
Despite the emotion aroused by the case, the consequences could be ultimately very limited. As of Wednesday morning, the Australian authorities also claimed that these "revelations" in no way call into question the continuation of the ongoing negotiations with DCNS. As for the Indian Defence Minister, while announcing the launch of an investigation, he told an Indian television that disclosed data would _"not important"_ , adding that the construction of Scorpene submarines in India would continue normally.


Source: http://www.lesechos.fr/industrie-se...les-sous-marins-sont-elles-graves-2022552.php
+++

Biggest takeaway

*The Ministry of Defence distinguishes indeed 5 level of confidentiality, 
*


*

"restricted",

"confidential defense",

"confidential defense France Special",

"secret" and

"top secret defense".
*
*But the documents presented on the site even not fit in the first category. "These are commercial documents, which have not confidential within the meaning of defense secret" , says one military source French.

and 

The fact that electromagnetic, magnetic and infrared characteristics of the submarine are described"not enough to allow the detection of a submarine" . Torpedo launch systems are considered"known" , and "for the conditions of use periscopes" .

@Abingdonboy @Nilgiri @anant_s @Ankit Kumar 002 @zebra7 @GuardianRED @Vergennes @Picdelamirand-oil https://defence.pk/members/bregs.148509/ @R!CK @hellfire @Techy @BON PLAN *

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## Nilgiri

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Heres the wrap from Australia and France*
> +++
> Something interesting going on for last 2 days away from the mockery of "news reports"
> *August 25th*
> 
> DCNS & @UNSW boost collaboration on research & development #submarines #innovation #ausdef
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and
> 
> Good to be meeting with @theamwu today to discuss how to develop the workforce to build 12 #submarines in #Adelaide
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AMWU - Australia Manufacturers Workers Union
> 
> Source: https://twitter.com/DCNSAustralia
> 
> _So In Australia its biz as normal and no one cared for the so called "leaks" and proceeded like normal...
> 
> Did not i say The newspaper and leaks were using Indian Scorpenes as the excuse to score brownie points..
> 
> +++_
> A complaint against X was filed Thursday in Paris by the French shipbuilder DCNS for breach of trust, receiving stolen property and accessory after the massive leak of confidential technical information on its Scorpene submarines, have we learned from source judiciary.
> 
> The complaint is examined by the prosecutor, who will decide whether to open a preliminary investigation, to entrust the investigation to the investigating judges or take no action.
> 
> Source: http://www.20minutes.fr/economie/19...-plainte-contre-x-apres-fuite-massive-donnees
> 
> +++
> 
> *Scorpene: what is the real value of the leaked documents?*
> 
> The leak of a technical document 22,400 pages on Scorpene submarines sold by DCNS India causes a storm in the French industrial and among its customers, particularly in India and Australia. However, the real value of the disseminated data to be defined. *According to two experts interviewed by **the sea , it could be in fact a minor.*
> 
> One of the key elements of the next few days will be to accurately determine the value of the document, the Australian daily _The Australian_ revealed the leak, in an article published on August 24 in the morning, that is to say in the middle of the night in Paris.
> 
> So, _The Australian_ announced he could consult a document describing the technical characteristics of Scorpene submarines of 22 400 pages. A considerable amount equivalent to 16 times _Fighting Fleets_ .To support his point, _The Australian_ details the contents, pagination chapters, discusses some technical aspects described and published a dozen pages with some specific data printed were masked at the initiative of the newspaper.
> 
> 
> *What content?*
> 
> Remains to know who is the author of the leak, which was the addressee, but especially that it contains exactly. Which could help contain the fire which was immediately declared in Bombay and Canberra.
> 
> *In India, the procedure for three months to the first sea trials of the first of six submarines whose plans are now in nature, new spearhead of the Indian sub-marinade compete with his Pakistani neighbors (also equipped DCNS, but with an earlier generation of submarines Agosta) and especially Chinese. A series of six vessels under construction in Mumbai with French assistance (and four years late), for a contract of $ 3.9 billion, an follow on being more under negotiation. It is perhaps the first target of mischief. *
> 
> *flipping can*
> 
> In Canberra, was selected on April 26, the supply of DCNS to carry, Australia, 12 derivatives submarines, diesel-electric version of the Barracuda French nuclear submarine. A giant contract that spans 25 years and 50 billion Australian dollars, or 34 billion euros, of which 8 billion euros to DCNS.But at this stage, we are still in exclusive negotiations. Firm contracts have yet to be negotiated. In fact, a reversal is possible.
> 
> Several French intelligence services were missioned on the case. And at DCNS is one of the priorities of the moment, which will much better, if any, to reassure customers (Chile and Malaysia, the Scorpene already sailing, India, Australia) and prospects (Norway , Poland).
> 
> *If we judge by the excerpts posted by The Australian , few, the document seems to be the instruction manual or the general presentation leaflet.*
> 
> *"P as particularly sensitive"*
> 
> Documents of this type, _a priori_ made jointly by industrial and marine user can move through many hands: crews, technicians and subcontractors. Some data and measures are mentioned (but have been hidden by the newspaper). Different patterns of equipment are presented, eg bow sonar, one of the secrets that are equipment. That said, a diagram does not give the performance of sonar.
> 
> *The sailor interviewed two experts. Both of them had access to what was posted online by The Australian , that is to say only a few pages. "It is certainly not immune to the presence of data really classified crept into the ground. But unless that is the case, the type of document submitted does not seem particularly sensitive " , says one of our sources.*
> 
> *Another expert believes that "what one discovers contains nothing that is truly protected in any case nothing is objectively known to anyone with some curiosity on the subject. The attached documents are synthetic and curves third octave (note: presented to illustrate the ship radiated noise) express nothing strictly secret. The device descriptions are generic. It must also consider that the document is dated and nothing says that it is not technically further. "*
> 
> *The fact that electromagnetic, magnetic and infrared characteristics of the submarine are described"not enough to allow the detection of a submarine" . Torpedo launch systems are considered"known" , and "for the conditions of use periscopes" .*
> 
> Source: http://www.lemarin.fr/secteurs-acti...-quelle-reelle-valeur-des-documents-divulgues
> 
> +++
> *DCNS: "data leaks" on the subs are they serious?*
> BRUNO TREVIDIC ALAIN RUELLO 24/08 16:14Updated at 18:34
> 
> *The documents released by an Australian newspaper on French submarines DCNS sold to India would not be classified "confidential defense" and the data disclosed not so sensitive as that.*
> 
> *Disclosure of major defense secrets involving national security or simple commercial low blow aimed at undermining the reputation of a player in the French defense industry? The question remains after the publication by the newspaper "The Australian" of various documents detailing the characteristics technical Scorpene type submarines sold by the French DCNS India.*
> 
> According to the Australian newspaper, the mass flight of _"secret documents"_ , which represent a total of over 22,400 pages - the origin of which is naturally not unveiled - expose to light the secrets of a "bestseller "DNCS and of future flagship of the Indian navy, the first of six copies, made in India, due to enter service in the coming months. The level of underwater noise emissions, the range and depth, its magnetic signature and electronic magnetic, would be well detailed in detail in these documents, including "The Australian" published excerpts on its website.
> 
> *The "contract of the century" challenged?*
> What cause concern not only among Indian customers Scorpene, but also among the other clients of the French shipbuilder, chief among them the Australian navy. In April, Australia had indeed chosen the latest DCNS, the Barracuda to renew its fleet of submarines. A market worth 34.5 billion euros over twenty years, presented as the deal of the century for DCNS , but still to be finalized by the end of the year or early 2017, according to a source close to the matter .
> These commercial papers, which are not confidential within the meaning of secret defense. Suffice to say that these revelations fall at the worst time for DCNS, while the French company is engaged in the phase of final negotiations of the various contracts of this vast project. And although the Barracuda chosen by Australia has very little to do with Indian Scorpene, it does not need more to the Australian newspaper said that the leaks could jeopardize the choice of Barracuda.
> 
> *Commercial documents*
> A finding an excessive nothing. Not only future Barracuda Australian offer much better performance than the Scorpene, but their weapons systems and much of their equipment will be totally different because they will be supplied by US companies.
> 
> *Moreover, the documents revealed by "The Australian" perhaps are not as secret as the newspaper says. The few online documents are apparently extracts from technical manuals provided by manufacturers, DCNS and Thales, in Indian customer, Restricted, as reported on the "restricted" information set in the header, but it is not classified documents in the French defense official typology.*
> 
> *During pre-investigation*
> *The Ministry of Defence distinguishes indeed 5 level of confidentiality, "restricted", "confidential defense", "confidential defense France Special", "secret" and "top secret defense". But the documents presented on the site even not fit in the first category. "These are commercial documents, which have not confidential within the meaning of defense secret" , says one military source French.*
> 
> remains to verify that all documents sent to the Australian newspaper are the same barrel. This is probably the subject of the ongoing investigation, mentioned by the spokesman of DCNS and Thales to explain the absence of official statements. But Wednesday morning, no one was able to identify who among the security services, was in charge of this investigation. And, according to our information, no complaints or judicial investigation has been initiated, thus leaving casts further doubt on the seriousness of the damage suffered.
> 
> *Australian and Indian authorities temper*
> Despite the emotion aroused by the case, the consequences could be ultimately very limited. As of Wednesday morning, the Australian authorities also claimed that these "revelations" in no way call into question the continuation of the ongoing negotiations with DCNS. As for the Indian Defence Minister, while announcing the launch of an investigation, he told an Indian television that disclosed data would _"not important"_ , adding that the construction of Scorpene submarines in India would continue normally.
> 
> 
> Source: http://www.lesechos.fr/industrie-se...les-sous-marins-sont-elles-graves-2022552.php
> +++
> 
> Biggest takeaway
> 
> *The Ministry of Defence distinguishes indeed 5 level of confidentiality,
> *
> 
> 
> *
> 
> "restricted",
> 
> "confidential defense",
> 
> "confidential defense France Special",
> 
> "secret" and
> 
> "top secret defense".
> *
> *But the documents presented on the site even not fit in the first category. "These are commercial documents, which have not confidential within the meaning of defense secret" , says one military source French.
> 
> and
> 
> The fact that electromagnetic, magnetic and infrared characteristics of the submarine are described"not enough to allow the detection of a submarine" . Torpedo launch systems are considered"known" , and "for the conditions of use periscopes" .
> 
> @Abingdonboy @Nilgiri @anant_s @Ankit Kumar 002 @zebra7 @GuardianRED @Vergennes @Picdelamirand-oil https://defence.pk/members/bregs.148509/ @R!CK @hellfire @Techy @BON PLAN *








Lets see who gets it

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## Spectre

@PARIKRAMA @Nilgiri

Instead of buying into extensive French Damage control measures and downplaying the risks just answer this point -

_The defence ministry has issued an official statement stating that the leaked documents put up on the Australian newspaper’s website “do not pose any security compromise *as the vital parameters* have been blacked out”._

So Even the Indian officials concede the vital parameters were present in the leak. Redacted documents confirmed that.

So there goes the laughably transparent attempt to insinuate that nothing vital was present. 

Since the leak/theft is old news - IS IT WRONG TO ASSUME THAT SEVERAL PARTIES WOULD HAVE ACCESS TO NON REDACTED VERSION HAVING the AFOREMENTIONED VITAL PARAMETERS?

I feel like either you guys are naive or worse..

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## Nilgiri

Spectre said:


> @PARIKRAMA @Nilgiri
> 
> Instead of buying into extensive French Damage control measures and downplaying the risks just answer this point -
> 
> _The defence ministry has issued an official statement stating that the leaked documents put up on the Australian newspaper’s website “do not pose any security compromise *as the vital parameters* have been blacked out”._
> 
> So Even the Indian officials concede the vital parameters were present in the leak. Redacted documents confirmed that.
> 
> So there goes the laughably transparent attempt to insinuate that nothing vital was present.
> 
> Since the leak/theft is old news - IS IT WRONG TO ASSUME THAT SEVERAL PARTIES WOULD HAVE ACCESS TO NON REDACTED VERSION HAVING the AFOREMENTIONED VITAL PARAMETERS?
> 
> I feel like either you guys are naive or worse..



The "vital" parameters of what originally is not so "vital" to begin with. Is that really so hard to comprehend as a possibility?

Or everything about anything is equally "vital" for you?

Seeing what was blacked out that parikrama posted earlier, it seems pretty run of the mill manual stuff.

I could say the data constants in my engine code I am developing are "vital" too....but would I be super-concerned if they were leaked somehow? Not really....since they are open source if you dig really hard. Now results of the code after implementation would be extremely vital and top secret even (for my company)....but the equivalent of those are not even available for the Indian Scorpene yet.

I really don't know how to dumb it down more for you.

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## Spectre

Nilgiri said:


> The "vital" parameters of what originally is not so "vital" to begin with. Is that really so hard to comprehend as a possibility?
> 
> Or everything about anything is equally "vital" for you?
> 
> Seeing what was blacked out that parikrama posted earlier, it seems pretty run of the mill manual stuff.
> 
> I could say the data constants in my engine code I am developing are "vital" too....but would I be super-concerned if they were leaked somehow? Not really....since they are open source if you dig really hard. Now results of the code after implementation would be extremely vital and top secret even (for my company)....but the equivalent of those are not even available for the Indian Scorpene yet.
> 
> I really don't know how to dumb it down more for you.



You don't need to dumb down anything for me. Throw whatever you can -

Parikrama has given one or two examples out more than 20 or so parameters to make his case and there 1000s of pages which are not even out yet and here you go confidently saying nothing vital which could compromise national security is out. Why don't you predict the next week's stock market while you are at it.

and 2nd - Why would MoD say No problem because vital stuff is blacked out? I*f the vital stuff is open source then why would MoD highlight on the blacked out part*? If stuff was as mundane as you suggest then they could have just said nothing vital/secret is present in what is now public documents. Case over. Problem solved. But no they didn't - they conceded that vital/secret stuff is there and took comfort in the fact that they have been redacted

There are enough holes in your argument - that an elephant can cruise through it.

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## Nilgiri

Spectre said:


> Why would MoD say No problem because vital stuff is blacked out? I*f the vital stuff is open source then why would MoD highlight on the blacked out part*?



Asked and answered. Not my problem if you have a comprehension issue.

Next!



Spectre said:


> There are enough holes in your argument - that an elephant can cruise through it.



You really have no clue about the levels of document control in a defence system do you? There is "vital" info even on the lowest open source documents. You seem to have no understanding that various information can be classified as vital (and its preferred but not necessary for them to be blacked out) but they have no bearing on operational capability....overall or specific.

Now if the Australian daily chose to black out what they thought was "vital"....thats their decision to do so on what they thought was some gold mine.....but that changes nothing if the base information is not secret or top secret.

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## PARIKRAMA

Spectre said:


> @PARIKRAMA @Nilgiri
> 
> Instead of buying into extensive French Damage control measures and downplaying the risks just answer this point -
> 
> _The defence ministry has issued an official statement stating that the leaked documents put up on the Australian newspaper’s website “do not pose any security compromise *as the vital parameters* have been blacked out”._
> 
> So Even the Indian officials concede the vital parameters were present in the leak. Redacted documents confirmed that.
> 
> So there goes the laughably transparent attempt to insinuate that nothing vital was present.
> 
> Since the leak/theft is old news - IS IT WRONG TO ASSUME THAT SEVERAL PARTIES WOULD HAVE ACCESS TO NON REDACTED VERSION HAVING the AFOREMENTIONED VITAL PARAMETERS?
> 
> I feel like either you guys are naive or worse..


The non redacted versions are already present with every other naval force who have requested DCNS to compete in tenders for their submarines.. What data the Newspaper had shared is not out of the world data.

Even if there is a constant attempt to highlight that no it compromises our subs in some manner, the fact is it cannot compromise beyond the fact that now people know how to operate a submarine..

Submarines are not such a system where you get a pinpoint frequency and you see the subs lighting up like a bogey with red alert sign some 1000 km away bcz of this leak. Nor it will ever be like that scenario really. The fact remains the submarines and data whatever comes out from this leak or in the data shared by DCNS under tender all are of plain vanilla pieces.



Spectre said:


> Parikrama has given one or two examples out more than 20 or so parameters to make his case and there 1000s of pages which are not even out yet and here you go confidently saying nothing vital which could compromise national security is out. Why don't you predict the next week's stock market while you are at it.
> 
> and 2nd - Why would MoD say No problem because vital stuff is blacked out? I*f the vital stuff is open source l then why would MoD highlight on the blacked out part*? If stuff was as mundane as you suggest then they could have just said nothing vital/secret is present in what is now shown documents. Case over. Problem solved. But no they didn't - they conceded that vital



There is a term used - its "restricted" so that means its for authorised person only. SO in no manner Indian Navy will say its manuals are non vital bcz saying that demeans the first level of security clearance needed in the first place itself. . But saying that and saying subs are compromised does not go hand in hand.

Yes, i dont have all the data as whatever is public its out there.. But again i am saying that Scorpene of India are far more customized edition than what is out here in public. Its not a plain vanilla submarine.

One must understand its not blue print level details or in any manners will ever provide a capability to adversaries to either reverse engineer the sub or its systems nor a capability to block the whole submarines ability with a remote control command.

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## ashok321

*Who Benefits From Indian Scorpene Submarine Data Leak?

http://www.defenseworld.net/news/16...an_Scorpene_Submarine_Data_Leak_#.V7_cPGCKTIU

*







Even as French naval contractor DCNS said on Wednesday it may have been the victim of "economic warfare" after secrets about its Scorpene submarines being built in India were leaked, question arises as to who will benefit from the data leak.

DCNS is perhaps the most successful submarine manufacturer in recent times with contract wins in India, Austalia, Norway, Brazil and Poland among others.

Asked if the leak could affect other contracts, a company spokeswoman was quoted as saying to Reuters that it had come against a difficult commercial backdrop and that corporate espionage could be to blame. "Competition is getting tougher and tougher, and all means can be used in this context," she said. "There is India, Australia and other prospects, and other countries could raise legitimate questions over DCNS. It's part of the tools in economic warfare."

DCNS seemed to imply that its competitors might have leaked the documents as part of ‘economic warfare’. Countries where DCNS submarines are in operation or in the bidding process are almost certain to study the leaks from the perspective of their own operation and selection.

“DCNS has been made aware of articles published in the Australian press related to the leakage of sensitive data about Indian Scorpene. This serious matter is thoroughly investigated by the proper French national authorities for Defense Security. This investigation will determine the exact nature of the leaked documents, the potential damages to DCNS customers as well as the responsibilities for this leakage,” the company said in a statement Wednesday.


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## Spectre

Nilgiri said:


> Asked and answered. Not my problem if you have a comprehension issue



I dont have a comprehension issue but you certainly have a deflection issue..



Nilgiri said:


> Now if the Australian daily chose to black out what they thought was "vital"....thats their decision to do so on what they thought was some gold mine.....but that changes nothing if the base information is not secret or top secret.



Now this is funny - Aussi daily blacked out, but it is Indian MoD taking a sigh of relief and publicly stating that thank God Aussies blacked out the vital stuff.. They could have simply come out with - Meh! Nothing secret was present - remove all ambiguity. But no, they are way smarter than you and knew if they made that foolhardy argument then would be crucified so they hedged (foolishly at that).

But Yeah! You Sir know more than MoD so I should take your word for it.. No thank you



Nilgiri said:


> You really have no clue about the levels of document control in a defence system do you?



Leave aside what I know or don't know- I am going to put you on the same pedestal where I put everyone else I meet online. If you claim the strength of your argument on the basis of your credentials then be ready to provide them. I for one would rather argue on logic. 



Nilgiri said:


> various information can be classified as vital (and its preferred but not necessary for them to be blacked out) but they have no bearing on operational capability



By the same logic various information can be classified as vital and necessary to blacked out which have bearing on op cap. Can you confidently say that not even one line out 22,000 pages have bearing on op capablities? 

DCNS couldn't. Indian Navy couldn't. MoD couldn't. But yeah you sure can make that call... No investigation - nothing. Perhaps GoI should just hire you instead of spending so much resources on the investigators and such.

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## Nilgiri

PARIKRAMA said:


> The non redacted versions are already present with every other naval force who have requested DCNS to compete in tenders for their submarines.. What data the Newspaper had shared is not out of the world data.
> 
> Even if there is a constant attempt to highlight that no it compromises our subs in some manner, the fact is it cannot compromise beyond the fact that now people know how to operate a submarine..
> 
> Submarines are not such a system where you get a pinpoint frequency and you see the subs lighting up like a bogey with red alert sign some 1000 km away bcz of this leak. Nor it will ever be like that scenario really. The fact remains the submarines and data whatever comes out from this leak or in the data shared by DCNS under tender all are of plain vanilla pieces.
> 
> 
> 
> There is a term used - its "restricted" so that means its for authorised person only. SO in no manner Indian Navy will say its manuals are non vital bcz saying that demeans the first level of security clearance needed in the first place itself. . But saying that and saying subs are compromised does not go hand in hand.
> 
> Yes, i dont have all the data as whatever is public its out there.. But again i am saying that Scorpene of India are far more customized edition than what is out here in public. Its not a plain vanilla submarine.
> 
> One must understand its not blue print level details or in any manners will ever provide a capability to adversaries to either reverse engineer the sub or its systems nor a capability to block the whole submarines ability with a remote control command.



I mean this wasone of the major points (among many) in India customizing and locally building the Scorpene to begin with!

It gives much larger control with India for its own top secret data, an extra layer of security if you will.

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## Spectre

PARIKRAMA said:


> The non redacted versions are already present with every other naval force who have requested DCNS to compete in tenders for their submarines.. What data the Newspaper had shared is not out of the world data.
> 
> Even if there is a constant attempt to highlight that no it compromises our subs in some manner, the fact is it cannot compromise beyond the fact that now people know how to operate a submarine..
> 
> Submarines are not such a system where you get a pinpoint frequency and you see the subs lighting up like a bogey with red alert sign some 1000 km away bcz of this leak. Nor it will ever be like that scenario really. The fact remains the submarines and data whatever comes out from this leak or in the data shared by DCNS under tender all are of plain vanilla pieces.
> 
> 
> 
> There is a term used - its "restricted" so that means its for authorised person only. SO in no manner Indian Navy will say its manuals are non vital bcz saying that demeans the first level of security clearance needed in the first place itself. . But saying that and saying subs are compromised does not go hand in hand.
> 
> Yes, i dont have all the data as whatever is public its out there.. But again i am saying that Scorpene of India are far more customized edition than what is out here in public. Its not a plain vanilla submarine.
> 
> One must understand its not blue print level details or in any manners will ever provide a capability to adversaries to either reverse engineer the sub or its systems nor a capability to block the whole submarines ability with a remote control command.



While I may differ with you on occasion, I always admire your polite and calm bearing which reflects in your posts.

Now that's done let's get on with it..

Look let's assume there 100 parameters which are secret and bearing on operations of submarines. And these 22,000 pages allow either directly or by inference to get a read on even one of them - then is it the end of world - No! But to have them out for free - raises my BP. We paid billions of dollars for these subs - and if there even a scratch on them - You can bet I ll scream

Detecting subs is a very time intensive, resource heavy business and navies spend years on it. Neither you nor anyone else can claim that even vanilla manual which is restricted for a reason of a non customized version of Scorpene will not add to the glossary of knowledge adversary has. It may not provide direct counters but can lead to them. It can be a short cut. It can reduce their work load.

That I am not ok with.. I want to make it as tough as I can for enemy to detect my subs and when my vendor/seller gives them a short cut then I am gonna clip his ears.

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## Nilgiri

Spectre said:


> Leave aside what I know or don't know- I am going to put you on the same pedestal where I put everyone else I meet online. If you claim the strength of your argument on the basis of your credentials then be ready to provide them. I for one would rather argue on logic.



OK so you don't. Im sorry.... purely logical arguments mean nothing to me when the premise is faulty. You can go on logically proving anything while claiming the earth is flat (in this case what vital exactly means according to the MoD and to a media daily) because someone told you that....but I have no time for that line of argument.

You obviously have no first hand experience about what is being talked about here....you can continue your discussion with PARIKRAMA, he has way more patience to interact and indulge your incessant drivel about all of this since you have made up your mind.

I on the other hand will be waiting for more MoD releases and DCNS statements and progress on the investigation.....that matters more to me than what someone on the internet believes to be "logic".

I'm out, have a good day.



Spectre said:


> Can you confidently say that not even one line out 22,000 pages have bearing on op capablities?



Can you confidently say the that at least one line does?

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## Spectre

Nilgiri said:


> OK so you don't. Im sorry.... purely logical arguments mean nothing to me when the premise is faulty. You can go on logically proving anything while claiming the earth is flat (in this case what vital exactly means according to the MoD and to a media daily) because someone told you that....but I have no time for that line of argument.
> 
> You obviously have no first hand experience about what is being talked about here....you can continue your discussion with PARIKRAMA, he has way more patience to interact and indulge your incessant drivel about all of this since you have made up your mind.
> 
> I on the other hand will be waiting for more MoD releases and DCNS statements and progress on the investigation.....that matters more to me than what someone on the internet believes to be "logic".
> 
> I'm out, have a good day.



The very fact that there is an investigation and not a snap statement of dismissal underlines the seriousness of the issue.. Good Day to you too



Nilgiri said:


> Can you confidently say the that at least one line does?



Yes, I can.. Combat Management System - A Manual would provide information on their operation. Fields of display, detection parameters, sensor linkages and response times and so on. 

China doesn't have this information for a scorpene - this effects us in two ways

- It allows China to design better combat management systems since they lack exposure to western submarines
- It allows them to know the types of sensors. There are 1000s of possible combinations for mil grade sensors and knowing their op parameters like their temp characteristics, detection ranges and parameters etc will allow them to incorporate such information in their own designs and in addition gives the captain of their enemy ships some idea of the capabilities of the Scorpene itself

I took the most non vital parts. Restricted but no secret. But you have to understand they are restricted for a reason. Submarines are not like other vessels - they are fewer in number, very costly and weapons to be used only in war. So having a training manual describing how to operate the enemy submarines itself is a coup. It allows you to get in the head of enemy captain. In comparison do we know anything about Chinese Jin class? No. but they have an idea or broad contours about ours.

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## Nilgiri

Spectre said:


> Yes, I can.. Combat Management System - A Manual would provide information on their operation. Fields of display, detection parameters, sensor linkages and response times and so on.
> 
> China doesn't have this information for a scorpene - this effects us in two ways
> 
> - It allows China to design better combat management systems since they lack exposure to western submarines
> - It allows them to know the types of sensors. There are 1000s of possible combinations for mil grade sensors and knowing their op parameters like their temp characteristics, detection ranges and parameters etc will allow them to incorporate such information in their own designs and in addition gives the captain of their enemy ships some idea of the capabilities of the Scorpene itself



I'm sorry but the DCNS vanilla scorpene combat management system has been out there, pretty much open source, every since it was first exported to countries like Malaysia.

Its a very standard document that any RFP would generate. In defence world, thats the very first thing any major country acquires, studies and then puts in a basement to gather dust.....whether they are a client or not.....because its pretty much free information.

Unless you are privy to specific details on what is there beyond the manual (if anything)....its a big leap to get into the secret and above specifics of such a system.



Spectre said:


> In comparison do we know anything about Chinese Jin class? No. but they have an idea or broad contours about ours.



Well then next time India ought to develop an SSK totally by itself if its worried about plain jane vanilla manuals floating around in its opponents databases.

I mean thats a main reason the SSBN program is being done indigenously.

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## Spectre

Nilgiri said:


> I'm sorry but the DCNS vanilla scorpene combat management system has been out there, pretty much open source, every since it was first exported to countries like Malaysia.
> 
> Its a very standard document that any RFP would generate. In defence world, thats the very first thing any major country acquires, studies and then puts in a basement to gather dust.....whether they are a client or not.....because its pretty much free information.



Thus the question - Why investigate? Why are each and every party including the French and Indians instead of saying what you are saying are launching audits and investigations to determine the damage caused by leaks?

They are professionals and surely they know more than you - is that a valid assumption to make?

It can't be a dog and pony show - just for appearances sake, no one would launch such a wide scale hunt just for appearances sake. Far easier to dismiss the concerns and we have seen exactly that on many other occasions even when there was no cause for alarm



Nilgiri said:


> I mean thats a main reason the SSBN program is being done indigenously.



This is an excellent point you made. Do you ever consider why US does not export Submarines or even Russia and China have several versions which they dont export except to very select few and that too in downgraded and heavily modified specs.

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## NKVD

Spectre said:


> Thus the question - Why investigate? Why are each and every party including the French and Indians instead of saying what you are saying are launching audits and investigations to determine the damage caused by leaks?
> 
> They are professionals and surely they know more than you - is that a valid assumption to make?
> 
> It can't be a dog and pony show - just for appearances sake, no one would launch such a wide scale hunt just for appearances sake. Far easier to dismiss the concerns and we have seen exactly that on many other occasions even when there was no cause for alarm



Because of amatuer and foolish TRP mongering media and political which hunt

Also there other kind of lobbies involved in this thing which have vested interests

Secondly as for an expert I don't find any real expert comment about this matter that make hype or concern

You should see statement of Ex Navy chief Menon comments and his views on this matter during a debate in NDTV

See how he rebufes validity of this so called leaks

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## Nilgiri

Spectre said:


> Thus the question - Why investigate? Why are each and every party including the French and Indians instead of saying what you are saying are launching audits and investigations to determine the damage caused by leaks?
> 
> They are professionals and surely they know more than you - is that a valid assumption to make?
> 
> It can't be a dog and pony show - just for appearances sake, no one would launch such a wide scale hunt just for appearances sake. Far easier to dismiss the concerns and we have seen exactly that on many other occasions even when there was no cause for alarm
> 
> 
> 
> This is an excellent point you made. Do you ever consider why US does not export Submarines or even Russia and China have several versions which they dont export except to very select few and that too in downgraded and heavily modified specs.



What do you mean why investigate? Its a routine procedure especially when a media accusation has been made. But I am against jumping to conculsions either way....but from what I've seen so far I tend towards it being a manual and possibly some low-level adjuncts. Why would I not believe the MoD over a typical media outlet that has so far been a damp squib on what it claims to have had?

RFP manuals are not that easy to get a hold of. You need to be a major country at least to get access to them through your contacts in other countries that make such RFPs. They are not some free brochure you get at an expo.

But seriously high level document control stuff, that I have a hard time believing that DCNS could have leaked...but it remains to be proven of course.....but nothing so far has shown evidence that it is the case....certainly not this australian media hogwash.



Spectre said:


> This is an excellent point you made. Do you ever consider why US does not export Submarines or even Russia and China have several versions which they dont export except to very select few and that too in downgraded and heavily modified specs.



Well for the SSK, the MoD would have factored in what any other major country (including opponents) would get access to without much effort (including what I believe to be this leak till it is proven otherwise)....and overall deemed it to be an acceptable trade-off given what could be customised and controlled internally (by developing unique features and building in Indian shipyards under MII etc) and also satisfied with DCNS doc control and safety etc...

Thats what you get when you want a good foreign system quickly and later use the ToT to develop one indigenously from the start yourself.

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## PARIKRAMA

@Spectre @Nilgiri 
What IN is really concerned and what it will never say is the proprietary customization it has done in Scorpene. IN will never want anything about those things in any place and no hint in the 22000 pages.

A case in hand is the sonar suit having X more additional arrays which puts S-Cube bang in the middle of S-cube and S-Square. What it also incorporates is some fine points from another system that has gone into our black projects. 

Thats why there will be always a Heavily modified blueprint of our subs which we dont want it out there nor about the works we have done. Yes simulations with advanced algorithms can help generate pattern scent in library for future detection , interception as well as compromising the submarine operations. But when you dont have access to proprietary stuff the library generated is technically a blank as its as good as saying sonar is active in 10Hz to 250 Khz range.

Remember there was a open Kilo hull lying with us for a long time..It was used properly and results will be in the new SSKs. And yes thats the chief reason a country which makes submarines of its own or even weapon systems always like to export a downgraded version to safeguard that proprietary changes. In media the technological leap is the crown jewels, in true military parlance its this proprietary stuff which are the crown jewels. 

The Scorpene Indian version proprietary works done by DRDO and completed via local MICs (MSME) particularly the sensor, communication, detection, stealth etc is the concern which they wish to investigate and be clear about. 

Even the anechoic tiles data is atm not there in any library banks.. In fact rubber and tiles are not even added to present kalavari to actually determine the suppression of noise nor its signature pattern. The tiles itself and its placement is a subject of another secrecy and again its outside the domain of foreign OEM and derives heavily from present fleet sub technology particularly the SSN and amalgamate the learning from French side. In short again the capability is an unknown entity which gives via simulation a wide band of possible numbers but cant help to narrow down the scent to possibilities which may help quicker detection.

if and by a big margin IF , thats ever leaked, its going to be massive blow for us. Yes anyone getting anything with IN emblem is a big issue.. But i fear more of those elements which comes under the proprietary works than anything else.

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## GuardianRED

Spectre said:


> Thus the question - Why investigate? Why are each and every party including the French and Indians instead of saying what you are saying are launching audits and investigations to determine the damage caused by leaks?
> 
> They are professionals and surely they know more than you - is that a valid assumption to make?
> 
> It can't be a dog and pony show - just for appearances sake, no one would launch such a wide scale hunt just for appearances sake. Far easier to dismiss the concerns and we have seen exactly that on many other occasions even when there was no cause for alarm
> 
> 
> 
> This is an excellent point you made. Do you ever consider why US does not export Submarines or even Russia and China have several versions which they dont export except to very select few and that too in downgraded and heavily modified specs.


From you arguments I'm getting the feeling of = "Hang them if they do , hang them if they don't"

The issue u have with the redacted portion , saying that if it was not vital why the MoD mentioned it. Seriously if you think , isn't that the FIRST Q that anyone would asked the MoD and they replied to that.

The Dog and pony show? Ain't u reading the 29 pages of posts on this thread? This can affect more than just a sub program. For Eg In india , additional subs, nuclear programs, other defence contracts etc, for AUS, possible the research program b/w DCNS and UNSW

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## GURU DUTT

PARIKRAMA said:


> @Spectre @Nilgiri
> What IN is really concerned and what it will never say is the proprietary customization it has done in Scorpene. IN will never want anything about those things in any place and no hint in the 22000 pages.
> 
> A case in hand is the sonar suit having X more additional arrays which puts S-Cube bang in the middle of S-cube and S-Square. What it also incorporates is some fine points from another system that has gone into our black projects.
> 
> Thats why there will be always a Heavily modified blueprint of our subs which we dont want it out there nor about the works we have done. Yes simulations with advanced algorithms can help generate pattern scent in library for future detection , interception as well as compromising the submarine operations. But when you dont have access to proprietary stuff the library generated is technically a blank as its as good as saying sonar is active in 10Hz to 250 Khz range.
> 
> Remember there was a open Kilo hull lying with us for a long time..It was used properly and results will be in the new SSKs. And yes thats the chief reason a country which makes submarines of its own or even weapon systems always like to export a downgraded version to safeguard that proprietary changes. In media the technological leap is the crown jewels, in true military parlance its this proprietary stuff which are the crown jewels.
> 
> The Scorpene Indian version proprietary works done by DRDO and completed via local MICs (MSME) particularly the sensor, communication, detection, stealth etc is the concern which they wish to investigate and be clear about.
> 
> Even the anechoic tiles data is atm not there in any library banks.. In fact rubber and tiles are not even added to present kalavari to actually determine the suppression of noise nor its signature pattern. The tiles itself and its placement is a subject of another secrecy and again its outside the domain of foreign OEM and derives heavily from present fleet sub technology particularly the SSN and amalgamate the learning from French side. In short again the capability is an unknown entity which gives via simulation a wide band of possible numbers but cant help to narrow down the scent to possibilities which may help quicker detection.
> 
> if and by a big margin IF , thats ever leaked, its going to be massive blow for us. Yes anyone getting anything with IN emblem is a big issue.. But i fear more of those elements which comes under the proprietary works than anything else.


thats a great post but my question is how can a news paper do what this australian paper did without consent of french OEM is there no secrecy act since these papers were property of a private company ?

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## R!CK

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Heres the wrap from Australia and France*
> +++
> Something interesting going on for last 2 days away from the mockery of "news reports"
> *August 25th*
> 
> DCNS & @UNSW boost collaboration on research & development #submarines #innovation #ausdef
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and
> 
> Good to be meeting with @theamwu today to discuss how to develop the workforce to build 12 #submarines in #Adelaide
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AMWU - Australia Manufacturers Workers Union
> 
> Source: https://twitter.com/DCNSAustralia
> 
> _So In Australia its biz as normal and no one cared for the so called "leaks" and proceeded like normal...
> 
> Did not i say The newspaper and leaks were using Indian Scorpenes as the excuse to score brownie points..
> 
> +++_
> A complaint against X was filed Thursday in Paris by the French shipbuilder DCNS for breach of trust, receiving stolen property and accessory after the massive leak of confidential technical information on its Scorpene submarines, have we learned from source judiciary.
> 
> The complaint is examined by the prosecutor, who will decide whether to open a preliminary investigation, to entrust the investigation to the investigating judges or take no action.
> 
> Source: http://www.20minutes.fr/economie/19...-plainte-contre-x-apres-fuite-massive-donnees
> 
> +++
> 
> *Scorpene: what is the real value of the leaked documents?*
> 
> The leak of a technical document 22,400 pages on Scorpene submarines sold by DCNS India causes a storm in the French industrial and among its customers, particularly in India and Australia. However, the real value of the disseminated data to be defined. *According to two experts interviewed by **the sea , it could be in fact a minor.*
> 
> One of the key elements of the next few days will be to accurately determine the value of the document, the Australian daily _The Australian_ revealed the leak, in an article published on August 24 in the morning, that is to say in the middle of the night in Paris.
> 
> So, _The Australian_ announced he could consult a document describing the technical characteristics of Scorpene submarines of 22 400 pages. A considerable amount equivalent to 16 times _Fighting Fleets_ .To support his point, _The Australian_ details the contents, pagination chapters, discusses some technical aspects described and published a dozen pages with some specific data printed were masked at the initiative of the newspaper.
> 
> 
> *What content?*
> 
> Remains to know who is the author of the leak, which was the addressee, but especially that it contains exactly. Which could help contain the fire which was immediately declared in Bombay and Canberra.
> 
> *In India, the procedure for three months to the first sea trials of the first of six submarines whose plans are now in nature, new spearhead of the Indian sub-marinade compete with his Pakistani neighbors (also equipped DCNS, but with an earlier generation of submarines Agosta) and especially Chinese. A series of six vessels under construction in Mumbai with French assistance (and four years late), for a contract of $ 3.9 billion, an follow on being more under negotiation. It is perhaps the first target of mischief. *
> 
> *flipping can*
> 
> In Canberra, was selected on April 26, the supply of DCNS to carry, Australia, 12 derivatives submarines, diesel-electric version of the Barracuda French nuclear submarine. A giant contract that spans 25 years and 50 billion Australian dollars, or 34 billion euros, of which 8 billion euros to DCNS.But at this stage, we are still in exclusive negotiations. Firm contracts have yet to be negotiated. In fact, a reversal is possible.
> 
> Several French intelligence services were missioned on the case. And at DCNS is one of the priorities of the moment, which will much better, if any, to reassure customers (Chile and Malaysia, the Scorpene already sailing, India, Australia) and prospects (Norway , Poland).
> 
> *If we judge by the excerpts posted by The Australian , few, the document seems to be the instruction manual or the general presentation leaflet.*
> 
> *"P as particularly sensitive"*
> 
> Documents of this type, _a priori_ made jointly by industrial and marine user can move through many hands: crews, technicians and subcontractors. Some data and measures are mentioned (but have been hidden by the newspaper). Different patterns of equipment are presented, eg bow sonar, one of the secrets that are equipment. That said, a diagram does not give the performance of sonar.
> 
> *The sailor interviewed two experts. Both of them had access to what was posted online by The Australian , that is to say only a few pages. "It is certainly not immune to the presence of data really classified crept into the ground. But unless that is the case, the type of document submitted does not seem particularly sensitive " , says one of our sources.*
> 
> *Another expert believes that "what one discovers contains nothing that is truly protected in any case nothing is objectively known to anyone with some curiosity on the subject. The attached documents are synthetic and curves third octave (note: presented to illustrate the ship radiated noise) express nothing strictly secret. The device descriptions are generic. It must also consider that the document is dated and nothing says that it is not technically further. "*
> 
> *The fact that electromagnetic, magnetic and infrared characteristics of the submarine are described"not enough to allow the detection of a submarine" . Torpedo launch systems are considered"known" , and "for the conditions of use periscopes" .*
> 
> Source: http://www.lemarin.fr/secteurs-acti...-quelle-reelle-valeur-des-documents-divulgues
> 
> +++
> *DCNS: "data leaks" on the subs are they serious?*
> BRUNO TREVIDIC ALAIN RUELLO 24/08 16:14Updated at 18:34
> 
> *The documents released by an Australian newspaper on French submarines DCNS sold to India would not be classified "confidential defense" and the data disclosed not so sensitive as that.*
> 
> *Disclosure of major defense secrets involving national security or simple commercial low blow aimed at undermining the reputation of a player in the French defense industry? The question remains after the publication by the newspaper "The Australian" of various documents detailing the characteristics technical Scorpene type submarines sold by the French DCNS India.*
> 
> According to the Australian newspaper, the mass flight of _"secret documents"_ , which represent a total of over 22,400 pages - the origin of which is naturally not unveiled - expose to light the secrets of a "bestseller "DNCS and of future flagship of the Indian navy, the first of six copies, made in India, due to enter service in the coming months. The level of underwater noise emissions, the range and depth, its magnetic signature and electronic magnetic, would be well detailed in detail in these documents, including "The Australian" published excerpts on its website.
> 
> *The "contract of the century" challenged?*
> What cause concern not only among Indian customers Scorpene, but also among the other clients of the French shipbuilder, chief among them the Australian navy. In April, Australia had indeed chosen the latest DCNS, the Barracuda to renew its fleet of submarines. A market worth 34.5 billion euros over twenty years, presented as the deal of the century for DCNS , but still to be finalized by the end of the year or early 2017, according to a source close to the matter .
> These commercial papers, which are not confidential within the meaning of secret defense. Suffice to say that these revelations fall at the worst time for DCNS, while the French company is engaged in the phase of final negotiations of the various contracts of this vast project. And although the Barracuda chosen by Australia has very little to do with Indian Scorpene, it does not need more to the Australian newspaper said that the leaks could jeopardize the choice of Barracuda.
> 
> *Commercial documents*
> A finding an excessive nothing. Not only future Barracuda Australian offer much better performance than the Scorpene, but their weapons systems and much of their equipment will be totally different because they will be supplied by US companies.
> 
> *Moreover, the documents revealed by "The Australian" perhaps are not as secret as the newspaper says. The few online documents are apparently extracts from technical manuals provided by manufacturers, DCNS and Thales, in Indian customer, Restricted, as reported on the "restricted" information set in the header, but it is not classified documents in the French defense official typology.*
> 
> *During pre-investigation*
> *The Ministry of Defence distinguishes indeed 5 level of confidentiality, "restricted", "confidential defense", "confidential defense France Special", "secret" and "top secret defense". But the documents presented on the site even not fit in the first category. "These are commercial documents, which have not confidential within the meaning of defense secret" , says one military source French.*
> 
> remains to verify that all documents sent to the Australian newspaper are the same barrel. This is probably the subject of the ongoing investigation, mentioned by the spokesman of DCNS and Thales to explain the absence of official statements. But Wednesday morning, no one was able to identify who among the security services, was in charge of this investigation. And, according to our information, no complaints or judicial investigation has been initiated, thus leaving casts further doubt on the seriousness of the damage suffered.
> 
> *Australian and Indian authorities temper*
> Despite the emotion aroused by the case, the consequences could be ultimately very limited. As of Wednesday morning, the Australian authorities also claimed that these "revelations" in no way call into question the continuation of the ongoing negotiations with DCNS. As for the Indian Defence Minister, while announcing the launch of an investigation, he told an Indian television that disclosed data would _"not important"_ , adding that the construction of Scorpene submarines in India would continue normally.
> 
> 
> Source: http://www.lesechos.fr/industrie-se...les-sous-marins-sont-elles-graves-2022552.php
> +++
> 
> Biggest takeaway
> 
> *The Ministry of Defence distinguishes indeed 5 level of confidentiality,
> *
> 
> 
> *
> 
> "restricted",
> 
> "confidential defense",
> 
> "confidential defense France Special",
> 
> "secret" and
> 
> "top secret defense".
> *
> *But the documents presented on the site even not fit in the first category. "These are commercial documents, which have not confidential within the meaning of defense secret" , says one military source French.
> 
> and
> 
> The fact that electromagnetic, magnetic and infrared characteristics of the submarine are described"not enough to allow the detection of a submarine" . Torpedo launch systems are considered"known" , and "for the conditions of use periscopes" .
> 
> @Abingdonboy @Nilgiri @anant_s @Ankit Kumar 002 @zebra7 @GuardianRED @Vergennes @Picdelamirand-oil https://defence.pk/members/bregs.148509/ @R!CK @hellfire @Techy @BON PLAN *




Appreciate your efforts to clear the misunderstanding of general public. Just to add to that and repeat what I've previously stated, every safety related equipment in military/civil applications contains several 1000s of sensitive documents. I myself go through restricted documents or manuals on a daily basis and I can assure you guys that not all documents contain the same level of sensitivity.

In French system, Restricted is the lowest of classification for documents. These documents are infact accessible to several 100 if not 1000s of people who related to the scorpene projects across all its customer countries. These documents usually contain general information of components and sometimes instructions on its operations/maintenance. I am pretty confident that such documents can always be stolen by staff from anywhere, whether its DCNS or MDL or even TKM. While i condemn the fact that someone actually took it to the public, I want people to realize that its not as sensitive as you deem it to be.

*On a side note for everyone losing sleep over it, The Chinese have the exact same data of Kilo submarines given to them by Russians while they procured their submarines. So how many people here says we should scrap all our Kilos or cancel plans for future procurement. Similarly; The Malaysians Brazilians and all future customers of Scorpenes will be provided with such general information of the equipment and due to the similarity of equipment, the data will be somewhat similar. This is exactly why such data is classified as Restricted (the lowest security level).*

Please don't think I am downplaying the seriousness of the issue. This is a breach of contract regardless of how small the relevance of data lost is. But I commend the present MOD for not acting like previous regime which would cancel all deals with DCNS even before an investigation. This is a big deal for the country and patience is important. We still need to understand if the person had access to documents of higher security levels and if anything of such importance was stolen.

P.S: Please don't think that 22,500 lost directly translates into all sensitive data of the submarine. People in the field knows, a very very small component which is the size of tennis ball sometimes have manuals that fills up several hundred pages. A submarine has documents/manuals that fills up several hundred thousands of pages and with varying levels of importance. Please be patient before going gaga over the issue and going all anti-France. Time will tell us more and our MOD will make decisions accordingly.

@PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @Nilgiri @anant_s
@Ankit Kumar 002 [USER=172146]@zebra7 @GuardianRED @Vergennes @Picdelamirand-oil @hellfire @Techy @BON PLAN

Good Day all![/USER]

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## PARIKRAMA

GURU DUTT said:


> thats a great post but my question is how can a news paper do what this australian paper did without consent of french OEM is there no secrecy act since these papers were property of a private company ?


Thats why the first step taken is to declare it stolen and file a case in front of the judiciary. here




https://defence.pk/threads/sensitiv...submarines-leaked.445677/page-28#post-8615870

Restricted is first level of authorization and it does not involve the The Australian newspaper.

Even if they claim its for public service, The French authorities as well as Australian authorities will find some legal point to take them to task. Its a common practice.

In case the officer who stole the data reveals whom he sold the data and the trail gets established and it becomes clear that newspaper "bought" the data for "X" dollars, it may get entangled in economic espionage and theft of military data witrh unauthorized access and publication without consent.

Take it from me, DCNS will pursue a case due to reputation loss and DCNS is French government owned, so French government will pursue the case also to ensure they regain some credibility as well

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## Nilgiri

PARIKRAMA said:


> What IN is really concerned and what it will never say is the proprietary customization it has done in Scorpene. IN will never want anything about those things in any place and no hint in the 22000 pages.



Yes completely agree 

This would be a segregated document control from DCNS to begin with (pretty standard procedure - I remember way back in university doing PhD I came across just how segregated it is even within NATO partner countries like Canada/US).

India would not have allowed DCNS to keep any of this in its own database (esp end verification/validation/calibration data)....though I still believe DCNS has not had a high order breach of its own doc control (for vanilla scorpene)...though this remains to be proven. We need more time for the final conclusions on the matter....there is still a cpl slim chances I see that may need retrofitting/counter-counters etc Some of these I actually thought of and may actually be an advantage for India since it would negate potential top level data the enemy has....and that may be decisive in a conflict if the enemy over-relies on what it feels is highest quality top secret data etc...

Which made me reach the natural possibility ( really putting on my tin foil hat here)....what if this leak was done on purpose by DCNS/India way at the root.....its not the first time I've heard about such in the defense world....esp with a new semi-cold war looming.

Its a large dank world in the defense sphere I am afraid.....I really can't take anything to be the 100% truth....least of all the media crap.



R!CK said:


> We still need to understand if the person had access to documents of higher security levels and if anything of such importance was stolen.



Yes this is the major point of the investigation I believe @Spectre

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## Spectre

There are couple of issues here 

- Self Admittedly leak is serious according to all parties concerned and the statements have been made to this effect. 

- Seriousness of the leak can be because of two reasons

a. Source and extent of access to the original leak i.e. subcontractor.

He may have provided the technical manual to the Aussie newspaper but there is no saying what level of access he had and what else he may have taken along with him. May be this was teaser and he is holding on to good stuff for future benefit

b. Data control practices of DCNS 

There shouldn't even arise an occasion where retired/fired employee can take off with any thing which is restricted. That it happened again puts into question if the data control practices were lax and if so then how many other such incidents happened which haven't come to light.

Future course of action

- That the leak happened itself is a breach of contract and if not contract then an ethics breach by DCNS. It remains to be seen if GoI will take any punitive action and if so what would be the extent of it. 

- This leak provides further weight to the logic of forgoing imports. The very fact that the manual could have been a public knowledge according @Nilgiri and @PARIKRAMA is a matter of concern. Submarines product should be like a black box but this is obviously not the case when various other parties easily have access to the broad contours of the product

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## BON PLAN

hellfire said:


> @BON PLAN
> 
> What all are the functions of a crew in a surfaced _Kilo_ of Indian Navy? May I enquire?
> 
> *A Kilo crew, even in surface, has a lot of other things to do than reading a newspaper....*
> 
> Source: https://defence.pk/threads/sensitive-data-of-indian-navy’s-scorpene-class-submarines-leaked.445677/page-25#ixzz4IMPFQnWZ


I was saying that I don't think a sub crew, once on the surface in the middle of the ocean (not at 5NM from the port), has for first task to find an hypothetical WIFI or sat connection to track a news.



hellfire said:


> _Merci beaucoup! Pilote?_
> 
> @PARIKRAMA he is a mirage pilot if I recall correctly?
> 
> On topic:
> 
> I think we are is safe waters for now. Preliminary information says not much to worry on. DCNS, of course, will have to worry a lot as they are in default of the confidentiality clause. Interesting to see what configurational changes take place, now.


Pilot? myself ?
No.

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## Nilgiri

Spectre said:


> This leak provides further weight to the logic of forgoing imports. The very fact that the manual could have been a public knowledge according @Nilgiri and @PARIKRAMA is a matter of concern. Submarines product should be like a black box but this is obviously not the case when various other parties easily have access to the broad contours of the product



Its a trade-off friend when you go for import for immediate "need-filling" or stepping stone of ToT etc...

As long as India hedges the best it can, with the most information and wisdom it can gather....it should be completely capable force defence wise in the long run.

I have to sometime down the road check what I can find in the dark web regarding military manuals.

I have a crap ton from the cold war that I gathered some time back (mostly when I was fiddling with the idea of developing a weapon system myself)...still quite relevant potent stuff....you would be surprised to see how much is technically still classified.

Anyways, we shall wait and see how this all unfolds....nothing any of us can do about it but sit back and have faith in our country and defence forces.

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## Spectre

Nilgiri said:


> when you go for import for immediate "need-filling" or stepping stone of ToT etc



Hence my despair as the scorpenes where neither immediate and nor bought in substantial ToT else we would have all six ideally out in high seas by now and would be building the next set of subs ourselves without the need for floating a new tende.r

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## Hellfire

BON PLAN said:


> I was saying that I don't think a sub crew, once on the surface in the middle of the ocean (not at 5NM from the port), has for first task to find an hypothetical WIFI or sat connection to track a news.




You think? I am interested in what gave that away?

Your hands on experience in an IN Kilo? How was it?



Spectre said:


> Hence my despair as the scorpenes where neither immediate *and nor bought in substantial ToT else we would have all six ideally out in high seas by now and would be building the next set of subs ourselves without the need for floating a new tende.*r



cost negotiations and finding issue.

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## Nilgiri

Spectre said:


> Hence my despair as the scorpenes where neither immediate and nor bought in substantial ToT else we would have all six ideally out in high seas by now and would be building the next set of subs ourselves without the need for floating a new tende.r



Yes its all perception as the MoD sees it. But I leave the call to them to make.

After this acquisition is done, I personally don't think India should go for a foreign SSK again for the next generation of its force (when it wants to pump out say dozens). It is a very crucial piece of strategic technology and India should really have the economies of scale in its RnD and shipyards by then.

But thats a different subject....and I personally like the Scorpene...and am just glad our SSBN program is well underway and within our control from start to end. That's what really counts for me....along with later SSN program we may have.

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## PARIKRAMA

Nilgiri said:


> Which made me reach the natural possibility ( really putting on my tin foil hat here)....what if this leak was done on purpose by DCNS/India way at the root.....its not the first time I've heard about such in the defense world....esp with a new semi-cold war looming.


That is something i have heard yesterday a lot. It seems a theory going through few folks state that China was the first big beneficiary of all this as it wanted to look at Scorpenes subs of India and use the simulation algos to arrive at some library scents to help pakistan. But China also wanted to use the same base data set to go after a upgraded pattern to simulate the Barracuda submarine pattern in the library.

Now this is where it gets interesting. Barracuda is not just Australian submarine section but it vitally points out what it was always said here by me that India has been negotiating for that technology under the Umbrella of India France Rafale deal and disguised the whole with a civilian nuclear tech deal (the whole Air-Land-Sea cooperation). That is the point of interest.

There is no doubt the future SSN of India will carry that technology derivatives and also it will flow to SSBN. Instead of having a blank library, the plan is to have a somewhat narrower band which they are after.

By counter leaking the same and making the whole data useless with the lowest form of release (the restricted word usage), it has done 

to play down the trump card value bcz now such data is public and almost all countries can get access
surely upgrades and counters are in place to ensure nothing is compromised for Indian scorpenes
there is a greater behind the scene bargaining for India to be onboard all this.

When i asked my sources about it, all just kept quiet.. did not say yes or no.. normally if its a no its always an emphatic No or I don knw about it..

So i had been holding that part out and not writing it here bcz even i dont know for sure if its a game of chess being played out here.



BON PLAN said:


> Pilot? myself ?
> No.



@BON PLAN he is perhaps confused with our other french friend @CNL-PN-AA

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## Jaam92

Superrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr Power of South Asia 
It seems like PM Modi and his cabinet are watching Tamil and Telgu Movies on daily basis.

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## Nilgiri

PARIKRAMA said:


> So i had been holding that part out and not writing it here bcz even i dont know for sure if its a game of chess being played out here.



Yah personally I am not concerned about all I reveal/think/write about on this forum (and I do know the line)....because the major players....be it chess or otherwise have already seen many moves ahead.....because they have the benefit of hundreds, if not thousands of people doing just that for a job 

But still a very interesting take you put on it. Appreciated as always.

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## [Bregs]

One thins seems certain after this ill timed leak for Navy and Air force too, it will have critical repercussions. Even if serious and honest inquiry is carried on by DCNS, the time taken will always be the critical factor as this involves multiple countries inquiry too. Rafale deal may further get delayed as well, so will be induction of scorpene subs. this leak even if nothing serious is lost will turn out to be nightmare for our forces which are already struggling for newer inductions and modernization.

our lazy work culture has got another credible excuse

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## BON PLAN

PARIKRAMA said:


> *New Scorpene Details Show Vital Stats Are Out In Open: 10 Facts*
> All India | Reported by Vishnu Som, Edited by Divyanshu Dutta Roy | Updated: August 25, 2016 21:22 IST
> Here are the top 10 developments in this big story:
> 
> _*The sonar system, including the frequencies used by its key components, the Flank Array, the Sonar Intercept Receiver, the Distributed Array and the Active Array have been compromised.*_ All these systems work together to allow the submarine to detect enemy warships and submarines and attack them using torpedoes.
> *The latest tranche of data appears to contradict the Ministry of Defence statement earlier today that there was no immediate security risk from the leak of secret documents detailing the capabilities of the Scorpene.*
> The Australian newspaper, which reported on the leak two days ago,* posted new details this evening on its website but with sensitive info redacted.*
> So though the documents prove that the classified information had been compromised, it is not in the public domain.
> The documents posted earlier have been examined and do not pose any security compromise as the vital parameters have been blacked out," the defence ministry said in a statement earlier. However, it is The Australian which has redacted sensitive data. It is possible that these documents are also available to others.
> Six Scorpenes designed by French shipmaker DCNS are being built in Mumbai. The first is expected to join service before the end of this year.
> On Tuesday night, the Australian said it had 22,000 pages of details that exposed the combat capability of the submarines, being built at a cost of $3.5 billion.
> The documents were stolen from DCNS and not leaked, an unnamed French government source said to news agency Reuters, adding that the information published so far shows only operational aspects of the submarines.
> The source said the documents appeared to have been stolen in 2011 by a former French employee that had been fired while providing training in India on the use of the submarines.
> India and France have opened investigations with Delhi asking for a detailed report.
> http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/more...per-10-facts-1450394?pfrom=home-lateststories
> ++


Main use of sonar, to remain discreet, is passive way. To know what is the freq. range is not very usefull. Except if a foreign country is able to make a sub emitting out that range. But that famous range is deep. Too deep !

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## Vergennes

@PARIKRAMA @Nilgiri @Abingdonboy 

I don't know if it was already said here,but DCNS filed a lawsuit yesterday against "X" for breach of confidence,possession of stolen documents (recel in french),and complicity.
The case is now brought in court and they will decide to open a preliminary investigation,to give the case to investigating judges or close the case.

Now let's wait & see.

Sorry for the translation.

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## BON PLAN

PARIKRAMA said:


> @Spectre
> Tagged you here..
> 
> As you were saying why not sensitive chiefly for few reasons. The thread already has much more materials collated here from open sources as well as what we could muster from our friends, colleagues, news reports, tweets and seniors/sources. The talk about frequenices/numbers being out is a pure misnomer. Our scorpene are being build over last 4 years when local MSMEs have stepped in to make own systems to replace original systems which are not there in any manual. so a lot more customization happened. Heck those manuals will be finalised post sea trials this month and formal induction of first sub kalavari In October 2016.
> 
> Acoustic signature is not yet added in our IFF library so no one can know other than the plain vanilla option in library records obtained from other sources or other navies. SO the so called stealth angle is never compromised nor it will be ever compromised especially since warm waters in this region provide additional natural cover.(again covered in this thread somewhere)
> 
> Let me give a simple example to highlight few points
> Consider the Combat System Subtics
> View attachment 328947
> 
> That same subtics is there with Scorpenes as well.
> The basic operating manual will cover the same points already known on subtics to all sides.
> 
> What it will not tell: The processing power, the sensors via which integrated data points are fed into the combat system, the algos, ect are much better than previous versions used in the above table format. on top, our HWT is not yet integrated which is suppose to be F21 implying the response of the system and additional things are yet to be encoded to get proper response time as well as range of combat, guidance of torpedoes etc.
> 
> Consider say now the active passive sonar suite S-Cube
> The leak talked about all array forms which are also there in Thales UW presentation posted here in this thread. Yet we know the range and i quoting it here 10Hz to 250 KHz from the same public document.. The military RFI or tender has more specific numbers in the same range and 99% of the whole world submarines also use the same band of frequencies for detection. Even the angle of coverage is given in such detailed presentation under tender conditions submitted to every competition won or failed..obtaining such information clandestinely is even more easier than such buying from a ex officer.
> 
> BTW there are additional customization in S-Cube Suite. I wont write beyond on this. Bcz doing that will surely endanger the sub specs. But rest assured we have been able to use a highly advanced and customised version of this S- Cube and wont share that with any other customer suites
> 
> Now lets take a case closer home. Do check DRDO Tender dox. What you get there is
> 
> Engineering drawings
> Metallurgy details including elemental composition
> All technical specifications including electronic ranges to pressure ranges to what not
> connection into live projects
> Now there was never an alarm raised for that till now.. When i see the tender dox of today or old ones i knw exactly what systems and sub systems are there, whats the tech specs pertaining to its work. Considering a missile or Electro Opto piece or even a subsystem for LCA or a recently tested Glide Bomb design and wings to what not things..
> 
> Pray, do tell us are they not dangerous.. if so, then why our media and forces never expressed their concern and panicked into the same.
> 
> I am not saying nothing significant is there.. Its restricted it means for authorized personnel only.. but i will not buy the argument that our scorpenes are compromised.
> 
> Now coming to DCNS, the official response to DCNS is proper. Dont go by what newspaper quoted. The official response as per their press release is this
> View attachment 328950
> 
> Kindly see the date
> View attachment 328951
> 
> http://en.dcnsgroup.com/news/press-information/
> 
> Now shall we consider the spokesperson quoted in newspaper as authentic or the ones listed in press information release in their website.
> 
> If you see The Australian newspaper work and read the whole story its clear that they are using India as a shoulder support to fire the gun. Its in our Scorpene expense the whole game is being played.
> 
> I still support nothing extremely alarming has been leaked. But yes i will still consider the authentic probe to complete and give that 1 % additional verdict to make it 100% sure that our subs are not duds.
> 
> 
> 
> .


SUBTICS is a generic term. It's like Windows... You can be sure the SUBTICS of the ****' Agosta 90B is like a Windows 95 when those of Scorpene is more like Windows 7.

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## Hellfire

Vergennes said:


> @PARIKRAMA @Nilgiri @Abingdonboy
> 
> I don't know if it was already said here,but DCNS filed a lawsuit yesterday against "X" for breach of confidence,possession of stolen documents (recel in french),and complicity.
> The case is now brought in court and they will decide to open a preliminary investigation,to give the case to investigating judges or close the case.
> 
> Now let's wait & see.
> 
> Sorry for the translation.



That , is the expected due process of law. What is the trade off?

@PARIKRAMA yeah. I confused him, @BON PLAN missed my satirical post and took it seriously. He should do a bit of research on _Rukmini _. He will get the point then.

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## BON PLAN

Nilgiri said:


> Bro has anyone revealed if the identity of this retired officer known to French authorities?
> 
> @Vergennes @Taygibay @BON PLAN


Not yet.

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## [Bregs]

Vergennes said:


> @PARIKRAMA @Nilgiri @Abingdonboy
> 
> I don't know if it was already said here,but DCNS filed a lawsuit yesterday against "X" for breach of confidence,possession of stolen documents (recel in french),and complicity.
> The case is now brought in court and they will decide to open a preliminary investigation,to give the case to investigating judges or *close the case.*
> 
> Now let's wait & see.
> 
> Sorry for the translation.



what does this mean by *close the case* bro ?

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## Hellfire

BON PLAN said:


> Main use of sonar, to remain discreet, is passive way. To know what is the freq. range is not very usefull. Except if a foreign country is able to make a sub emitting out that range. But that famous range is deep. Too deep !



Absolutely agreed. Going active will allow counter detection. But then, the warm waters of our neighbourhood, do tend to throw some interesting idiosyncrasies to any system being imported.

That is where, my earlier contention, that the difference will some in the doctrines,and SOPs as also the deployment concepts, in addition to the modifications being contemplated in light of the changed circumstances.

Any idea on the trade offs now?

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## R!CK

[Bregs] said:


> what does this mean by *close the case* bro ?



Yea if the court rules in favour of Mr. X, the case will be closed. This is when DCNS fails to prove that hes the culprit. It was just a general statement, don't worry about it.

Good Day!

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## Hellfire

[Bregs] said:


> what does this mean by *close the case* bro ?



Means if low grade stuff is there, it wont be taken as tantamount to espionage against nation ... merely industrial espionage?

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## jha

This episode has given us the just reason for cancelling P-75I and instead focus on own SSKs. HSL and MDL along with L&T can develop decent SSKs.

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## Nilgiri

A little submarine song for everyone who wants a bit of a breather in this long discussion before proceeding to part 2:






@jbgt90

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## [Bregs]

jha said:


> This episode has given us the just reason for cancelling P-75I and instead focus on own SSKs. HSL and MDL along with L&T can develop decent SSKs.



Best is make the next lots of subs under MII with Russia collaboration of lada class if they agree or then amur class. India is already behind subs induction and now this unfortunate leak will further delay


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## BON PLAN

hellfire said:


> You think? I am interested in what gave that away?
> 
> Your hands on experience in an IN Kilo? How was it?


You probably have too much seen the film "the yellow submarine"....

LOL. (it's a joke ! and please take it like that).

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## Hellfire

BON PLAN said:


> You probably have seen too much the film "the yellow submarine"....



Not seen, how is it? Worth?

_Operation Petticoat _& _Down Periscope_ the only ones. The latter, yes, a way too many times, a true inspirational movie, a good leadership role displayed by Lt Cdr Thomas Dodge, wouldn't you agree?

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## PARIKRAMA

Vergennes said:


> @PARIKRAMA @Nilgiri @Abingdonboy
> 
> I don't know if it was already said here,but DCNS filed a lawsuit yesterday against "X" for breach of confidence,possession of stolen documents (recel in french),and complicity.
> The case is now brought in court and they will decide to open a preliminary investigation,to give the case to investigating judges or close the case.
> 
> Now let's wait & see.
> 
> Sorry for the translation.



yes sir i did after going thru french news






https://defence.pk/threads/sensitive-data-of-indian-navy’s-scorpene-class-submarines-leaked.445677/page-28#post-8615870

and in here
*Australia Warns DCNS After Security Leak*




file photo
By *Reuters *2016-08-26 03:04:15

Australian defense officials warned French naval contractor DCNS to beef up security in Australia, where it is preparing to build a A$50 billion ($38.13 billion) fleet of submarines, in the wake of a massive data leak, a government spokesman said on Friday.

DCNS was left reeling after more than 22,000 pages outlining details relating to submarines it is building for India were published in The Australian newspaper earlier this week, sparking concerns about its ability to protect sensitive data.

A senior Australian defense official, acting on orders from Defence Industry Minister Christopher Pyne, warned DCNS that the government was deeply concerned by the implications of the leak, a spokesman for the minister said.

DCNS has filed a complaint for breach of trust, a spokesman for the shipbuilder said on Friday.

*"We filed a complaint against unknown persons for breach of trust with the Paris prosecutor on Thursday afternoon," the DCNS spokesman said.*

*A French government source said on Thursday that DCNS had apparently been robbed and it was not a leak, adding it was unlikely that classified data was stolen.*

DCNS is locked in exclusive negotiations with Australia to build a fleet of 12 next-generation submarines after seeing off its rivals, Germany's Thyssenkrup AG and a Japanese government-backed consortium of Mitsubishi Heavy Industries and Kawasaki Heavy Industries.
*
DCNS said earlier this week that the leak, which covered details of the Scorpene-class model and not the vessel currently being designed for the Australian fleet, bore the hallmarks of "economic warfare" carried out by frustrated competitors.*

*TKMS Australia, the German shipbuilder's local subsidiary, declined to respond to the accusation. Mitsubishi Heavy Industry also said that it had no comment.*

A senior industry source who was involved in the Australian submarine bidding called the allegation an "extraordinary" attempt to deflect attention from DCNS' security shortcomings.

"Clearly there's been a massive leak. And for the French to seek to blame either the Japanese or the Germans under some banner of 'economic warfare' is hysterical," he said.

The French victory in one of the world's most valuable defense contracts was a major blow to Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe's push to develop defense export capabilities as part of a more muscular security agenda.

Australian Defence Minister Marise Payne visited Tokyo this week to meet with her Japanese counterpart, Tomomi Inada, in the first such visit since the contract was awarded.

DCNS and TKMS are currently locked in another competition for a lucrative contract to replace Norway's fleet of aging Ula-class submarines. The European shipbuilders, the world's biggest suppliers of conventional submarines, regularly lock horns.
http://maritime-executive.com/article/australia-warns-dcns-after-security-leak

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## Indrajit

PARIKRAMA said:


> Restricted is first level of authorization and it does not involve the The Australian newspaper.
> 
> Even if they claim its for public service, The French authorities as well as Australian authorities will find some legal point to take them to task. Its a common practice.



Not a chance. The newspaper can't be touched. They are not subject to French laws & there were not dealing with any classified material of Australia. No case can be made out.


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## Nilgiri

Indrajit said:


> Not a chance. The newspaper can't be touched. They are not subject to French laws & there were not dealing with any classified material of Australia. No case can be made out.



Pretty sure they can extradite them to face tort proceedings in France.

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## Indrajit

Nilgiri said:


> Pretty sure they can extradite them to face tort proceedings in France.



You would be pretty wrong. Tort proceedings & extradition? They wouldn't even be liable, it is not they who have stolen the documents. They published it when had been passed back & forth since 2011. Public good is almost certainly a factor. If what you said could be possible, then you would not have any news organisation publishing either Wikileaks papers or Snowden's revelations. Even the US knows better, do you think a paper like The Australian is that reckless? French laws will not apply, no Australian laws were broken, no extradition, no nothing.


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## Nilgiri

Indrajit said:


> You would be pretty wrong. Tort proceedings & extradition? They wouldn't even be liable, it is not they who have stolen the documents. They published it when had been passed back & forth since 2011. Public good is almost certainly a factor. If what you said could be possible, then you would not have any news organisation publishing either Wikileaks papers or Snowden's revelations. Even the US knows better, do you think a paper like The Australian is that reckless? French laws will not apply, no Australian laws were broken, no extradition, no nothing.



Revealing copyrighted and restricted IP information constitutes a tort, which can be prosecuted.

Anything that can be prosecuted can merit an extradition.

This has nothing to do with the original theft.

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## jha

[Bregs] said:


> Best is make the next lots of subs under MII with Russia collaboration of lada class if they agree or then amur class. India is already behind subs induction and now this unfortunate leak will further delay



Yes. Collaboration for sub-systems can be done and best available ones can be chosen from vendors from East or, West. But overall design should be ours.

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## [Bregs]

well for me it makes no sense to to prosecute newspaper which did its work of free journalism by publishing the leaks it got from third party. secondly no Australian law seems to be broken, at most they can be asked to join investigations 

French govt shall go after the culprit who has stolen the data and later alleged to have shared with other countries in south east

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## R!CK

jha said:


> This episode has given us the just reason for cancelling P-75I and instead focus on own SSKs. HSL and MDL along with L&T can develop decent SSKs.



I'll be honest and admit that it's the step in the right direction but an indigenous designed SSK (Project 76) is atleast 15 years away in reality. I can be optimistic and say 10 years but it won't be true in Indian Stretched Time. Regardless of the type, India will need atleast 10 SSK to augment the fleet by 2030. This maybe follow on Kilo/Scorpene or P75I. P75I is expected to be a significant step ahead of P75 project and will be our best SSKs in future with regards to capability.

Personally I'd prefer us not go for follow-on orders and instead proceed with P75I and develop an indigenous design parallel to P75I starting 2020. This may work out out to have the first P75I join the service by 2022-23 provided a type is decided by 2017 fiscal year and first Indigenous submarine to join fleet by 2028-30. However the most important thing is to have the intention and bureaucratic assistance to move it further without prolonging it too far.

Good Day all!

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## Indrajit

Nilgiri said:


> Revealing copyrighted and restricted IP information constitutes a tort, which can be prosecuted.
> 
> Anything that can be prosecuted can merit an extradition.
> 
> This has nothing to do with the original theft.




Nope, doesn't stand. Not outside France. The newspaper is not liable in France, they broke no Australian law. Highly classified information of countries like the U.S. have been revealed elsewhere without a prosecution, other than those directly accused of the leak. The Australian newspaper isn't run by kids, they know what they are doing.


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## R!CK

Indrajit said:


> Nope, doesn't stand. Not outside France. The newspaper is not liable in France, they broke no Australian law. Highly classified information of countries like the U.S. have been revealed elsewhere without a prosecution, other than those directly accused of the leak.



Yep. Can't penalize the Newspaper. The person who stole the data and if someone had paid him to do that, they will be considered the culprits. 

Good Day!


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## Hellfire

@BON PLAN

I watched this  (maybe)







This is in a Kilo. Interesting look apart from foodie habit of the two.

They are our very own SLBM. To be fired from forward torp tubes


Interesting tidbits for those not aware

1. Very cramped sub.

2. Usually only one head(toilet) on the boat.(second is a shower only used as an additional store room)

3. No one gets a priority for a runny stomach except the Captain. First come first evacuate basis.

4. Triple bunk system in a cramped room, crew sleeps in the same bunk as per shift. It is more comfortable to sleep under the torpedo tubes. You can sleep on your sides there.

5. No bathing facilities.

6. Medicated disposable clothes are carried, discarded evey 3 days.

7. Captain and XO and MO have their own bunks and 'cabins' with XO and MO sharing. No one else has this privacy.

8. The conn has space of roughly 13 by 13 feet (approx) and is the biggest and most open space.

9. Inherent MARCOS crew is also based in every sub. Now don't ask why!

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## Ali Zadi

Some tid-bits might be taken from the Shortfin Barracuda so as to alter the performance values in the manual, you cant decrease the capability so that might be a way forward.

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## ashok321

Man who 'stole' Scorpene papers was fired while working in India


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## The Eagle

So the fight between competitors turned it into handy and juicy for the rivals while costing much to the India and France. The count of 22400 pages is a sign that tells everything is on risk with respect of critical info yet a possible damage assessment would be running. If the leaked details are fake then competitors with basic info of such product would have make it public to prove the leak as fake while acknowledging themselves for to be correct of information gathered by them. Faking of leaks is highly unlikely and more chances are, it is going to be very interesting for others while on other hand, a damaging stroke for the French in Defence Industry. 

To the some (troll) sources, India has played with French on dirty side for the discounts or possible push for other gadgets in minimum cost while playing the victim card of this leak that risked the security at most. To the sources, India played it only on wish & whim of new friend after many of promises to be fulfilled in this category/requirements. Though, this source doesn't carry much weight and seems unlikely and could be wild guess. The business politics especially in the weapon business, is the dirtiest one that even pushed many countries to the war for business gains & profits.

The competitors from MMRCA and more are hell bent for the money alone, and surely, International Business Mafia, especially in Weapons Market, can go to any limit for self benefits and gain in Market that it is about Power & Influence as well along with Money. IMO, French may keep in view of Israel in this subject as well that in near past, relations were sour even Natan Y said "France will have to pay the price". 

French side need to check the list of competitors and rivals both yet need to asses the situation and beneficiaries of this leaks that does not give priority to the rivals of India but France in most. Indeed, India's rivals would love to have go through the details that may have cost them billions to gather and many years yet this leak made it very easy and quick even way before the first voyage but most of it seems like, is the work of business competitors of France rather rivals of India. 

The leaks are true or not but it causes a situation to worry and reevaluate the whole plan even the mechanism of such machine that, if leaks are valid, the Subject become useless or IN may need long time to adopt new tactics and apply or change internal parts. The statements like, nothing critical is leaked, seems like a damage control and if it is not the case than there wouldn't be heat in offices of Navy. As I said earlier, if the leak is fake, many of competitors would attest such statement very soon and would be giving analysis of contradiction between leaks and real info they gathered but in-case of no such opposition of leaks, French and Indians need to be worrying about this. 

However, all guess work and analysis could be wrong but only time will tell though not all the truth will be disclosed in such contexts so don't expect much from media. 

@PARIKRAMA

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## Nilgiri

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-37192876

*India: Scorpene submarine data leak 'no security threat'*

India has said that a massive data leak from French shipbuilder DCNS of submarines designed for India's navy did not "pose any security compromise".

The leak of more than 22,000 pages exposes secrets about the combat capabilities of Scorpene-class vessels.

The confidential documents were made public by the Australian media.

India signed a $3.5bn (£2.6bn, €3.1bn) deal for six Scorpene vessels in 2005. They are being built in cooperation with a state-owned Mumbai shipbuilder.

France was asked to investigate the data leak to an Australian website and share its findings with the Indian side. It is not clear who first obtained the confidential documents.

"The documents that have been posted on the website by an Australian news agency have been examined and do not pose any security compromise as the vital parameters have been blacked out," a government statement on Thursday said.

"As a matter of abundant precaution" India is also "examining the impact [it would have] if the information contained in the documents claimed to be available with the Australian sources is compromised", the statement added.

On Thursday evening, The Australian newspaper uploaded on its website a new set of documents detailing the submarine's "underwater warfare system", the Press Trust of India reported.

Defence expert Uday Bhaskar told The Hindu newspaper the document seems "like an instruction manual and does not show any significant addition to what has already been released".

"This does not add to any higher degree of vulnerability than earlier but it shows the level of documentation available in the public," he said.

Earlier this year, DCNS also won Australia's largest-ever defence contract to build a fleet of advanced submarines.

Details about the Shortfin Barracuda submarine class that will be built for Australia were not contained in the leak.

The Scorpene submarines are small-to-intermediate size vessels currently in use in Malaysia and Chile. Brazil is due to deploy the submarine type in 2018.

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## 911

So now its clear that data leaked is about the technical details of the sub and Australia got its hands somehow. Now why this data is not so important (it can still assist somehow) is because it contains details about parameters of components and its working which is known to Indian builders as well. Every sub building company is aware of those details very well. Other than that, the sensitive data about sub which is not even being shared with India is probably not present in that 22,400 leaked pages. But if this leak is from France's side, its possible, but then in the end its DCNS at loss. Its may or may not have an impact on Indian Navy, its upto experts to decide whether its worth cancelling the deal or not.

Either that or the leak is completely bogus and reported just to mislead 'some' believing into possible wrong details provided in the leak. But then its chances are low because those 'some' experts can validate the technical details of sub provided in the leak just by going through the parameters.


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## BON PLAN

hellfire said:


> Not seen, how is it? Worth?
> 
> _Operation Petticoat _& _Down Periscope_ the only ones. The latter, yes, a way too many times, a true inspirational movie, a good leadership role displayed by Lt Cdr Thomas Dodge, wouldn't you agree?


First one is a comedy.
I don't know yours.... unfortunately.

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## GuardianRED

[/QUOTE_ ="Operation Petticoat _& _Down Periscope_ the only ones. The latter, yes, a way too many times, a true inspirational movie, a good leadership role displayed by Lt Cdr Thomas Dodge, wouldn't you agree?[/QUOTE]

I have seen down periscope .. lol.... Kelsey grammer is excellent. Need to see operation petticoat !

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## BON PLAN

Indrajit said:


> You would be pretty wrong. Tort proceedings & extradition? They wouldn't even be liable, it is not they who have stolen the documents. They published it when had been passed back & forth since 2011. Public good is almost certainly a factor. If what you said could be possible, then you would not have any news organisation publishing either Wikileaks papers or Snowden's revelations. Even the US knows better, do you think a paper like The Australian is that reckless? French laws will not apply, no Australian laws were broken, no extradition, no nothing.


The problem is not the tabloid which gave the information. The problem is to find the thief and his accomplices, and to ensure that this kind of incident does not happen again in DCNS and in all the french defense industry.


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## Hellfire

BON PLAN said:


> First one is a comedy.
> I don't know yours.... unfortunately.



Ah you must watch it. Awesome.

Now I think I better stop trolling, @PARIKRAMA will get annoyed. But problem with his threads is, that his research is so thorough and meticulous, that one can simply let him keep posting and get a complete picture. No effort needed, he is absolutely thorough. I have stopped quoting him, except to show am tracking his post. Awesome!

@GuardianRED _Operation Petticoat _is fun, but a bit different types set in WW-II. Watch it.

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## BON PLAN

hellfire said:


> Ah you must watch it. Awesome.
> 
> Now I think I better stop trolling, @PARIKRAMA will get annoyed. But problem with his threads is, that his research is so thorough and meticulous, that one can simply let him keep posting and get a complete picture. No effort needed, he is absolutely thorough. I have stopped quoting him, except to show am tracking his post. Awesome!
> 
> @GuardianRED _Operation Petticoat _is fun, but a bit different types set in WW-II. Watch it.


I will. This week end I'll search it on internet.

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## GuardianRED

hellfire said:


> Ah you must watch it. Awesome.
> 
> Now I think I better stop trolling, @PARIKRAMA will get annoyed. But problem with his threads is, that his research is so thorough and meticulous, that one can simply let him keep posting and get a complete picture. No effort needed, he is absolutely thorough. I have stopped quoting him, except to show am tracking his post. Awesome!
> 
> @GuardianRED _Operation Petticoat _is fun, but a bit different types set in WW-II. Watch it.


Yes Just checked , it on youtube - Cary Grant and Tony curtis ! Excellent!

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## PARIKRAMA

*ANIVerified account* ‏@ANI_news  1h1 hour agoNew Delhi, India
We are going by assumption of the worst case scenario: Manohar Parrikar #*ScorpeneLeak*







*ANIVerified account* ‏@ANI_news  1h1 hour agoNew Delhi, India
Don't think its big worry, will be able to put things in right directions: Defence Minister Parrikar #*ScorpeneLeak*












@Vergennes @Abingdonboy @anant_s @Nilgiri @Spectre @Ankit Kumar 002 @hellfire @BON PLAN https://defence.pk/members/bregs.148509/ @R!CK @GuardianRED @zebra7

One more source from HT

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## Roybot

Nilgiri said:


> "The documents that have been posted on the website by an Australian news agency have been examined and *do not pose any security compromise as the vital parameters have been blacked out,"* a government statement on Thursday said.



What an idiotic thing to say! Just because the newspaper has blacked out the "vital parameters" doesn't mean its not out there! These documents must have exchanged hundreds oh hands already before it got to the newspaper.

@PARIKRAMA I hope they give this statement just to fool the media and general public, and are taking this issue more seriously than that.

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## GuardianRED

PARIKRAMA said:


> *ANIVerified account* ‏@ANI_news  1h1 hour agoNew Delhi, India
> We are going by assumption of the worst case scenario: Manohar Parrikar #*ScorpeneLeak*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *ANIVerified account* ‏@ANI_news  1h1 hour agoNew Delhi, India
> Don't think its big worry, will be able to put things in right directions: Defence Minister Parrikar #*ScorpeneLeak*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 329168
> 
> 
> @Vergennes @Abingdonboy @anant_s @Nilgiri @Spectre @Ankit Kumar 002 @hellfire @BON PLAN https://defence.pk/members/bregs.148509/ @R!CK @GuardianRED @zebra7
> 
> One more source from HT
> View attachment 329174
> 
> 
> View attachment 329175



Got this from NDTV app on my ipad

*NDTV News Flash*

*Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar On Scorpene Submarine Leak : Waiting for report, many stop using products from France*

IDIOTS!!!

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## PARIKRAMA

@anant_s @nair @Vergennes @Abingdonboy @hellfire @Nilgiri @Spectre @R!CK @GuardianRED @Roybot @BON PLAN https://defence.pk/members/bregs.148509/ @Ankit Kumar 002 

I said here proprietary modifications and about acoustic signature and manuals being old and new updated ones are used now..





https://defence.pk/threads/sensitiv...submarines-leaked.445677/page-29#post-8616171






https://defence.pk/threads/sensitiv...submarines-leaked.445677/page-15#post-8608841





https://defence.pk/threads/sensitiv...submarines-leaked.445677/page-15#post-8608996

*Everything was revealed here.. the sustained campaign will also die down... Good finally DM MP clarified on these points bcz now its confirmed by him what i said here based on sources*

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## nair

PARIKRAMA said:


> Everything was revealed here.. the sustained campaign will also die down... Good finally DM MP clarified on these points bcz now its confirmed by him what i said here based on sources



Hope they have gone thru the entire 22000 pages......

@PARIKRAMA I do not think one can say "Sustained campaign" at least in this case........ Any other country, such leaks would have resulted the same......... Yes we have huge number of news channels who compete with each other for their bit of extra.......

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## anant_s

PARIKRAMA said:


> Everything was revealed here.. the sustained campaign will also die down... Good finally DM MP clarified on these points bcz now its confirmed by him what i said here based on sources


Yes its important that DM takes charge of situation. News channels are blabbering all sorts of BS as if your neighbor has run away with your car keys, papers and driving license (& modified it his picture and name).
To me (whatever documents i've read), the leak seems more like that of a design manual. 
More important part of all this episode is that someone had access to that kind of data and now leaked it. I don't think strategically there is a huge damage, but we must be more vigilant now that next time we may not be as lucky.

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## nair

anant_s said:


> More important part of all this episode is that someone had access to that kind of data and now leaked it. I don't think strategically there is a huge damage, but we must be more vigilant now that next time we may not be as lucky.



The bigger question is, is there more to be leaked?????

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## PARIKRAMA

nair said:


> Hope they have gone thru the entire 22000 pages......


No the 22000 claim is not contested nor completely checked by DM MP or IN. In fact India has not officially asked The Australian newspaper about it.

Reason being the proprietary part of the work by India comes under the "top secret" bracket and is not shared with everyone including DCNS folks above a particular grade and strategic involvement people. So tracing a internal audit of those dox access is much easier to cross check bcz as far as i know as per source the people involved in this work has not left either DCNS nor the from Indian side folks involved in this project.

So it was much easier to rule that part out...



nair said:


> @PARIKRAMA I do not think one can say "Sustained campaign" at least in this case........ Any other country, such leaks would have resulted the same......... Yes we have huge number of news channels who compete with each other for their bit of extra......


You are correct but there are folks who made in news media comments about scorpenes being dud, we should scrap scorpene project to even going for Russian sub right now itself .. The way whole thing was sounded made it clear that instead of understanding whats going on, the gullible masses were taken on a ride to paint a picture against what is the reality..

You know folks said that our sailors inside submarines wont have confidence to safely carry out mission knowing everything is compromised .. Its as if we are playing with their lives and sending them to suicide missions.

You should check Shiv Aroor comments or even NDTV's Vishu Som's comments about everything leaked and compromised.. 










Shiv's famous cartoon is





to some extent initially Manu Pubby also joined and finally backed off.. same like Jugal R Purohit.. 


Thats why i said sustained campaign.. none of them even understand whats going on. but in the name of Breaking news and TRP , they created a mood where the whole country folks thought its a gone case really

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## nair

PARIKRAMA said:


> You are correct but there are folks who made in news media comments about scorpenes being dud, we should scrap scorpene project to even going for Russian sub right now itself .. The way whole thing was sounded made it clear that instead of understanding whats going on, the gullible masses were taken on a ride to paint a picture against what is the reality..



I agree, That is how our media and the so called "Experts" behave....... Most of them wont even have a clue about the news, even if they have, the are playing their part of the TRP agenda.......I have seen these experts taking different positions and different attitude towards similar issues in different time, and i think these guys are actors of a drama or serial which is shown to us in the form of a talk show/debate........

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## R!CK

PARIKRAMA said:


> No the 22000 claim is not contested nor completely checked by DM MP or IN. In fact India has not officially asked The Australian newspaper about it.
> 
> Reason being the proprietary part of the work by India comes under the "top secret" bracket and is not shared with everyone including DCNS folks above a particular grade and strategic involvement people. So tracing a internal audit of those dox access is much easier to cross check bcz as far as i know as per source the people involved in this work has not left either DCNS nor the from Indian side folks involved in this project.
> 
> So it was much easier to rule that part out...
> 
> 
> You are correct but there are folks who made in news media comments about scorpenes being dud, we should scrap scorpene project to even going for Russian sub right now itself .. The way whole thing was sounded made it clear that instead of understanding whats going on, the gullible masses were taken on a ride to paint a picture against what is the reality..
> 
> You know folks said that our sailors inside submarines wont have confidence to safely carry out mission knowing everything is compromised .. Its as if we are playing with their lives and sending them to suicide missions.
> 
> You should check Shiv Aroor comments or even NDTV's Vishu Som's comments about everything leaked and compromised..
> View attachment 329182
> 
> View attachment 329183
> 
> 
> 
> Shiv's famous cartoon is
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> to some extent initially Manu Pubby also joined and finally backed off.. same like Jugal R Purohit..
> 
> 
> Thats why i said sustained campaign.. none of them even understand whats going on. but in the name of Breaking news and TRP , they created a mood where the whole country folks thought its a gone case really



Typical Indian media at its best. Everything but the truth...lol

Good Day

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## PARIKRAMA

GuardianRED said:


> Got this from NDTV app on my ipad
> 
> *NDTV News Flash*
> 
> *Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar On Scorpene Submarine Leak : Waiting for report, many stop using products from France*
> 
> IDIOTS!!!



here is the thing.. NDTV... gone mad fully

read here.. bolded and made bigger in size part
*Scorpene submarine documents leak not a big worry: Parrikar*
Aug 26, 2016, 05.57 PM IST

NEW DELHI: Defence minister Manohar Parrikar on Friday played down the Scorpene leak saying its a "not big worry", but there are few pockets of concerns because the ministry is assuming the worst case scenario.

*The defence minister said that the leaked documents put on the web of 'The Australian' newspaper does not include any of the weaponry systems of the Scorpene as been reported in the media.*

*Parrikar said that the navy has assured him that most of the leaked documents are not of concern.*

*The minister also said that Scorpene submarine has not even fully completed the sea trials, which is important to understand how it will work under water.*

*The Indian Navy has taken up Scorpene document leak matter with French Directorate General of Armament.*

*"We are waiting for the report. Basically, what is on the website is not of big concern. We are assuming, on our own, that this has leaked and we are taking all precautions", he said.

"What I am given to understand that there are few pockets of concern assuming that what is claimed to have been leaked has leaked actually.

"We are going by assumption of the worst case scenario. I think there is not big worry because we will be able out put things in right perspective", Parrikar added.*

*Asked by a journalist whether the Rafale deal would be affected because of the leak, the minister shot back questioning whether one can stop using French products just because a leak has happened in another company.*

*"You stop using all products from France? Obviously, the companies are different, the type of equipment is different and an incident should be punished with whatever the contractual punishment is there. It is not intentionally leaked," Parrikar said.*
*
He said the punishment should be based on the conditions in the contract.*

More than 22,000 pages of top secret data on the capabilities of six highly advanced submarines being built for the Indian Navy in Mumbai in collaboration with a French company have been leaked, raising alarm bells today in the security establishment.
The combat capability of the Scorpene submarines being built at Mazagon dock at a cost of USD 3.5 billion by French shipbuilder DCNS, went public when an Australian newspaper, "The Australian", put the details on the website.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...a-big-worry-Parrikar/articleshow/53874704.cms

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## Ind4Ever

PARIKRAMA said:


> *ANIVerified account* ‏@ANI_news  1h1 hour agoNew Delhi, India
> We are going by assumption of the worst case scenario: Manohar Parrikar #*ScorpeneLeak*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *ANIVerified account* ‏@ANI_news  1h1 hour agoNew Delhi, India
> Don't think its big worry, will be able to put things in right directions: Defence Minister Parrikar #*ScorpeneLeak*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 329168
> 
> 
> @Vergennes @Abingdonboy @anant_s @Nilgiri @Spectre @Ankit Kumar 002 @hellfire @BON PLAN https://defence.pk/members/bregs.148509/ @R!CK @GuardianRED @zebra7
> 
> One more source from HT
> View attachment 329174
> 
> 
> View attachment 329175



What the heck is weapons system? We don't even have one with Scorpene. 

Indian must ask French government to rectify with new improved features into this submarine or else any future deals with French must stop. This is ridiculous.

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## [Bregs]

wow Mr parrikear you dont even have the weapon system chosen as yet then how can there systems be leaked, torpedoes firm has been blacklisted. so cover up seems to have started ?

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## Indrajit

Yup.....no worries whatsoever...so much so that MoD must now make it a practice to ask all such foreign companies to put out this type of information in the public. After all, there is nothing to it, is there....?



[Bregs] said:


> wow Mr parrikear you dont even have the weapon system chosen as yet then how can there systems be leaked, torpedoes firm has been blacklisted. so cover up seems to have started ?



Don't be too hard on him, what else can he realistically say...?

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## PARIKRAMA

and more sensationalism by Cameron Stewart from The Australian

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## jhungary

Not too familiar with Indian intelligence system so I cannot say for sure.

but most of these leak are either financially motivated or they are almost always someone behind for personal gain.

If you get what kind of document was leaked, then you can close down the source, and then you can plug the leak.

This happen in all country at all level, so this is not some kind of big news

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## 911

PARIKRAMA said:


> and more sensationalism by Cameron Stewart from The Australian
> 
> View attachment 329210
> 
> 
> View attachment 329214
> 
> 
> View attachment 329215


They are so much concerned about India then why don't they share the documents with Indian authorities.

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## PARIKRAMA

An article .. some good .. in fact very good points





*ScorpeneLeak — Fighting that ‘sinking’ feeling*

ABHIJIT SINGH
AUTRALIAN NAVY
CYBER THEFT
INDIAN NAVY
MALCOLM TURNBULL
MANOHAR PARRIKAR
SCORPENE LEAK
The Scorpene data leak is a body-blow for the Indian navy. Already suffering from a critical shortage of submarines to protect its littoral-seas, the navy must now deal with allegations that its principal submarine project, a venture being pursued in partnership with the French company DCNS, has been badly compromised. In a damning disclosure, _The Australian_reported that it had seen crucial files that revealed critical data about India’s ‘Scorpene’ programme, with equipment and operational specifications outlined in such minute detail that India’s future submarine operations could be severely jeopardised.

Stung by the revelations, the navy has ordered an inquiry, but is struggling to come to terms with the leak’s operational implications. In order to get to the bottom of this embarrassing expose, it is important to answer three sets of crucial questions:

*What was the source of the leak? Was this a case of cyber theft?*
As news broke of the revelations, Indian officials rushed into damage control mode. The navy immediately released a statement saying the leak appeared to have originated from outside India. Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar contended that the leak looked like a case of hacking. His suggestion that this wasn’t a physical breach of security, but the handy-work of cyber criminals seemed to resonate with Australian Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull, who also hinted that the system had been infiltrated by hackers. It all seemed conveniently aimed at shifting the onus of responsibility onto unknown cyber spies with the mysterious ability to pierce well guarded computer networks.

However, the present evidences suggest that this may not have been a case of hacking at all. First, the documents released are nearly all scanned copies of a printed manuscript which appears to be an operational manual. It is reasonable to assume that if hackers were involved, original PDF documents would have been made public. Naval sources point out that when submarine specifications are prepared, every equipment and sensors is evaluated by specialists who prepare separate files with necessary specifications. It is only later that the individual documents are collated and printed as a consolidated manual. If hackers had accessed company computers, experts aver, they are likely to have revealed individual PDF documents.

Instead, printed manuals have been scanned and copied on a data disc by an insider who then seems to have either smuggled it out physically or illegally transmitted its contents to an outside agency with the intention of making a specific revelation.

The Indian navy may be right in suggesting that the leak did not originate in India, because details of DCNS’ submarine projects with Chile and Malaysia have also been released. If an Indian source had stolen the data, he/she would not have had access to files pertaining to these countries. The report in _The Australian_ states that the data on the Scorpene was written in France for India in 2011 and is suspected to have been removed from France in that same year by a former French navy officer who was at that time a DCNS subcontractor. Given these facts, the possibility of an opportunistic leak cannot be discounted. It is possible that the information was available on a data disc since 2011, and was obtained from its source for a price to further a particular strategic objective.

*What are the implications of the leak?*
There is no denying that the revealed information is of an extremely sensitive nature. The leaked data is said to include details of the Scorpene’s stealth capabilities, frequencies for intelligence gathering, the noise levels of the submarines at various speeds, the diving depths, range and endurance, magnetic radiations, specifications of the torpedo system, propeller noise specifications and radiated noise levels etc. Not only would this information be useful for an adversary in developing tactics to combat the Scorpene, it also appears to nullify stealth and secrecy — the holy grail of submarine operations.

Despite their seemingly grave nature, the revelations, however, do not compromise the Scorpene in a way that negates its prospects for future exploitation. Navies usually have a data bank of the vital characteristics of rival submarine forces. This is based on the understanding of equipment and sensors which those platforms are known to possess and their general operating characteristics. This information, however, does not readily translate into a submarine’s unique underwater signature. The signature of a submarine is a combination of all its acoustic and magnetic emissions, which can be studied and documented only during sea-trails. While the revelation of the Scorpene’s operating characteristics is damaging for combat operations, it does not prevent the submarines from being tactically exploited.

This is not to say the Indian navy will not be adversely affected by the leak. The revelations are significant and could impact India’s undersea operations direly. But they are unlikely to put the Scorpene class out of service.

*Who does this disclosure really target?*
This is the most important part of the investigations. It appears that the revelations are part of corporate espionage war between DCNS and its rival corporations. The company’s spokesperson alluded to it in a media briefing on Thursday when she stated that “competition was getting tougher and tougher, and all means were being used.. all tools in economic warfare.”

Australia’s recent award of its submarine contract to DCNS has created severe heart-burn in Japan and Germany, where competing firms had been vying for Canberra’s $50 billion contract of the replacement for the Collins class submarine. It isn’t surprising that the nature of the leak seems intended at discrediting the French company.

A particularly revealing clue is a screenshot of icons of PDF documents of important submarine sensors that is part of the released documents. It suggests that the insider was acting on instructions that would show him/her as having accessed not just scanned copies of the manuals, but also original PDF versions of individual files. The fact, however, that the material put out does not contain any PDF files implies that the source may have had no cyber access to the original material, except being able to view it on a computer screen. This debunks the hacking theory, showing that despite their inability to infiltrate company servers, the conspirators planned on creating an illusion that inadequate systems-security at DCNS compromised sensitive operational data.

Even the security classification annotated in red with the stamp “Restricted Scorpene India” on the revealed documents appears intended at indicting DCNS. Clearly, the culprits were keen to show the French company in poor light, implicating it for failing to protect sensitive data.

Only investigation will reveal if there was a real corporate war at play. What seems clear is that India has been a collateral victim in a deeper economic and strategic conspiracy. The challenge for the Indian navy will be dispel the impression that its premier submarine project has been rendered worthless.

http://www.orfonline.org/expert-speaks/scorpeneleak-fighting-that-sinking-feeling/

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## R!CK

PARIKRAMA said:


> and more sensationalism by Cameron Stewart from The Australian
> 
> View attachment 329210
> 
> 
> View attachment 329214
> 
> 
> View attachment 329215



I don't appreciate the tone of aggression in his tweets. It's like he got something personal against India or France. There is definitely a hidden agenda behind this and making The Australian popular is just not it. There is a bigger player behind the screens promoting this for a huge gain. (Think SEA1000)

P.S: Thanks to @PARIKRAMA for such a great effort in covering this topic. Don't think even our media put in so much honest effort. Really thanks a ton!

Good Day!

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## mkb95

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/769178059396100096

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## thesolar65

In engineering course (civil, elect or mech), in the 5th or 6th sem there is paper called machine design and its a open book exam and its 4 hour duration(one hour more). And the intriguing fact is most students get low score or have a back in that paper.

Now you know what I mean?

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## PARIKRAMA

911 said:


> They are so much concerned about India then why don't they share the documents with Indian authorities.


Thats the bitter truth. If there was not a vested agenda they would have contacted DM MP or MOD or Indian governemnt via Indian embassy in Australia post first breaking of the story.. Now what you see is an effort to become famous and make a point that they are the crusaders of exposing truth but in reality they are aiding corporate espionage.



mkb95 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/769178059396100096


Yeah i saw that.. Was reading comments on this and earlier just before comment. Some folks are giving it back to him nicely and questioning his intention. As usual he will keep quiet. people even used hashtag presstitute for him already.

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## Hellfire

jhungary said:


> Not too familiar with Indian intelligence system so I cannot say for sure.
> 
> but most of these leak are either financially motivated or they are almost always someone behind for personal gain.
> 
> If you get what kind of document was leaked, then you can close down the source, and then you can plug the leak.
> 
> This happen in all country at all level, so this is not some kind of big news




Oh, if it is an Indian source, the gentle(wo)man has been taken in for a 'debrief'. Our counter intelligence is pretty good, usually.

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## Ankit Kumar 002

On sensational headlines by Indian News Portals and Indian Defence journalists , its just not because of want of TRP. Its about money, its simple , submarines are need for 20% of human population ( India ) and it will be bought from somewhere , if not DCNS its others gain. 

Just want to bring up a incident , a particular well known defence journalist was part of the Indian team, whose visit for an exhibition by SAAB was paid by SAAB so that they promote SAAB here. And the particular person was then uploading pics and in particular praising a MANPADS , a SR SAM, AIP , and submarine design offerings from SAAB .....


Same is case for another person who is personally related to Reliance ( which is offering submarines with Russia )..... he too is clamouring on this. 


The purpose of my this post is just to add on to " Why we should not fall for anything written here ". 

Also if there are any serious concerns , you would have been hearing about tensions in Brazil.... they are quite silent.

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## ashok321

Scorpene documents leak not a big worry: Parrikar

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## Indrajit

PARIKRAMA said:


> Thats the bitter truth. *If there was not a vested agenda they would have contacted DM MP or MOD or Indian governemnt via Indian embassy in Australia post first breaking of the story.*. Now what you see is an effort to become famous and make a point that they are the crusaders of exposing truth but in reality they are aiding corporate espionage..



He is a journalist, he has a job to do and it doesn't including saving either DCNS's backside or that of the Indian MoD. He has a story and it's a big one. Not like such stories come around every week. In any case, how on earth is your question relevant? The documents have been around for some time now, seen by many, passed through many hands. Why on earth should the guy who finally broke the story be our primary focus? This is plain obfuscation, making it sound like it's all a major conspiracy of an Australian newspaper rather than the theft/leak at DCNS which has opened up a major headache for us. The document might have been seen/be in the hands of either the Chinese or Pakistanis or both among many others. Yet the focus is not on the fact that we have been stripped partially naked but that a guy finally called out on it and brought it to our notice as if the embarrassment is the unbearable part, not the actual leak itself. The journalist & the paper are causing embarrassment, nothing more. The real damage has already been done elsewhere and we have no real idea of the extent of that.


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## GuardianRED

PARIKRAMA said:


> here is the thing.. NDTV... gone mad fully
> 
> read here.. bolded and made bigger in size part
> *Scorpene submarine documents leak not a big worry: Parrikar*
> Aug 26, 2016, 05.57 PM IST
> 
> NEW DELHI: Defence minister Manohar Parrikar on Friday played down the Scorpene leak saying its a "not big worry", but there are few pockets of concerns because the ministry is assuming the worst case scenario.
> 
> *The defence minister said that the leaked documents put on the web of 'The Australian' newspaper does not include any of the weaponry systems of the Scorpene as been reported in the media.*
> 
> *Parrikar said that the navy has assured him that most of the leaked documents are not of concern.*
> 
> *The minister also said that Scorpene submarine has not even fully completed the sea trials, which is important to understand how it will work under water.*
> 
> *The Indian Navy has taken up Scorpene document leak matter with French Directorate General of Armament.*
> 
> *"We are waiting for the report. Basically, what is on the website is not of big concern. We are assuming, on our own, that this has leaked and we are taking all precautions", he said.
> 
> "What I am given to understand that there are few pockets of concern assuming that what is claimed to have been leaked has leaked actually.
> 
> "We are going by assumption of the worst case scenario. I think there is not big worry because we will be able out put things in right perspective", Parrikar added.*
> 
> *Asked by a journalist whether the Rafale deal would be affected because of the leak, the minister shot back questioning whether one can stop using French products just because a leak has happened in another company.*
> 
> *"You stop using all products from France? Obviously, the companies are different, the type of equipment is different and an incident should be punished with whatever the contractual punishment is there. It is not intentionally leaked," Parrikar said.*
> *
> He said the punishment should be based on the conditions in the contract.*
> 
> More than 22,000 pages of top secret data on the capabilities of six highly advanced submarines being built for the Indian Navy in Mumbai in collaboration with a French company have been leaked, raising alarm bells today in the security establishment.
> The combat capability of the Scorpene submarines being built at Mazagon dock at a cost of USD 3.5 billion by French shipbuilder DCNS, went public when an Australian newspaper, "The Australian", put the details on the website.
> http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...a-big-worry-Parrikar/articleshow/53874704.cms


Hehe .... NDTV posted a CORRECTION : with what u just posted

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## PARIKRAMA

Indrajit said:


> He is a journalist, he has a job to do and it doesn't including saving either DCNS's backside or that of the Indian MoD. He has a story and it's a big one. Not like such stories come around every week. In any case, how on earth is your question relevant? The documents have been around for some time now, seen by many, passed through many hands. Why on earth should the guy who finally broke the story be our primary focus? This is plain obfuscation, making it sound like it's all a major conspiracy of an Australian newspaper rather than the theft/leak at DCNS which has opened up a major headache for us. The document might have been seen/be in the hands of either the Chinese or Pakistanis or both among many others. Yet the focus is not on the fact that we have been stripped partially naked but that a guy finally called out on it and brought it to our notice as if the embarrassment is the unbearable part, not the actual leak itself. The journalist & the paper are causing embarrassment, nothing more. The real damage has already been done elsewhere and we have no real idea of the extent of that.


And your point being?
What damage? You think our kilo submarines are not there in CHinese fleet? The vanilla signature are not there in Nato library?
Why should not be the guy our focus? his intentions is purely sensationalism and his every second under the lights of the whole world to showcase himself as rising star.
Does he have any credentials to ascertain that these dox are genuine or not? What significance they have? Which independent analyst he used to authenticate and vouch for his claims? Is he a qualified person to say its important or not? Thats inspite of knowing that Restricted is the lowest form of authorization needed?

You think adversaries dont know each other fleet stuff? You think China or Pakistan or any XYZ country will come to know about Scorpenes only after 2011 when "valuable data" is floating in the market? 

Embarrassment on whose cost? India? Were they not breaking the story for Australian interest and safeguarding them against a company like DCNS who won 12 sub tender of Australian $ 50 Bn? They simply used India as a bait and used indian scorpenes to gain more eyeballs.. Unfortunately our gullible masses and presstitute media fell for that.. No body questioned him his intention and now since India is downplaying all his efforts and slowly clearing that nothing much is there bcz nowhere proprietary stuff or modified blueprints are leaked, he is trying to prove that no our country is wrong bcz if all folks accept India, DM MP and Indian navy's view + stoic silence from other operators of scorpene, his breakthrough story goes down the drain..

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## Indrajit

PARIKRAMA said:


> And your point being?
> What damage? You think our kilo submarines are not there in CHinese fleet? The vanilla signature are not there in Nato library?
> Why should not be the guy our focus? his intentions is purely sensationalism and his every second under the lights of the whole world to showcase himself as rising star.
> Does he have any credentials to ascertain that these dox are genuine or not? What significance they have? Which independent analyst he used to authenticate and vouch for his claims? Is he a qualified person to say its important or not? Thats inspite of knowing that Restricted is the lowest form of authorization needed?
> 
> You think adversaries dont know each other fleet stuff? You think China or Pakistan or any XYZ country will come to know about Scorpenes only after 2011 when "valuable data" is floating in the market?
> 
> Embarrassment on whose cost? India? Were they not breaking the story for Australian interest and safeguarding them against a company like DCNS who won 12 sub tender of Australian $ 50 Bn? They simply used India as a bait and used indian scorpenes to gain more eyeballs.. Unfortunately our gullible masses and presstitute media fell for that.. No body questioned him his intention and now since India is downplaying all his efforts and slowly clearing that nothing much is there bcz nowhere proprietary stuff or modified blueprints are leaked, he is trying to prove that no our country is wrong bcz if all folks accept India, DM MP and Indian navy's view + stoic silence from other operators of scorpene, his breakthrough story goes down the drain..




Seriously? You are entitled to whatever opinion you want but your attempts to go after the journalist in question is silly. According to you, there is nothing to bother, right? That position is yours to take but acting like everyone else who doesn't fall in line is gullible, naive or is pointless. if you believe there is nothing to the story, say so & move on. A lot of us disagree and we haven't all being bought or lack in intelligence.

It isn't embarrassment for India? Right? Tell it to the DM , the MoD and the navy who have been busy the last 24 odd hours desperately trying to keep a brave face. According to you, they should have all said who cares & gone back to sleep. Whether Australia was the main target & India was merely a side show is of no interest to me, all i know is that it is India who has been the subject of international spotlight and not at all in a pleasant way.

So we have gullible masses, _presstitute_ media, now of course including the international media and almost all our experts & retired high ranking officers who have suggested differently to your take on the matter are all either compromised, stupid or cunning.... all but just the couple of geniuses including yourself who are the sole repositories of all intelligence and are the sole keepers of the national interest _(and by default, that of DCNS)

You have no idea what the 22400 pages contain, no idea whether that is the total extent of the leak, yet you so masterfully & without a trace of doubt, pontificate on how the rest of the world, atleast this country of ours is filled with only the stupid, the gullible &/or the conniving. Quite simply, the arrogance of that position where you refuse to allow for even an iota of doubt is mind boggling. After all, no one else knows anything...unless of course they agree with you...._


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## GuardianRED

Indrajit said:


> Seriously? You are entitled to whatever opinion you want but your attempts to go after the journalist in question is silly. According to you, there is nothing to bother, right? That position is yours to take but acting like everyone else who doesn't fall in line is gullible, naive or is pointless. if you believe there is nothing to the story, say so & move on. A lot of us disagree and we haven't all being bought or lack in intelligence.
> 
> It isn't embarrassment for India? Right? Tell it to the DM , the MoD and the navy who have been busy the last 24 odd hours desperately trying to keep a brave face. According to you, they should have all said who cares & gone back to sleep. Whether Australia was the main target & India was merely a side show is of no interest to me, all i know is that it is India who has been the subject of international spotlight and not at all in a pleasant way.
> 
> So we have gullible masses, _presstitute_ media, now of course including the international media and almost all our experts & retired high ranking officers who have suggested differently to your take on the matter are all either compromised, stupid or cunning.... all but just the couple of geniuses including yourself who are the sole repositories of all intelligence and are the sole keepers of the national interest _(and by default, that of DCNS)
> 
> You have no idea what the 22400 pages contain, no idea whether that is the total extent of the leak, yet you so masterfully & without a doubt, pontificate on how the rest of the world, atleast this country of ours is filled with only the stupid, the gullible &/or the conniving. Quite simply, the arrogance of that position where you refuse to allow for even an iota of doubt is mind boggling. After all, no one else knows anything...unless of course they agree with you...._


So what is the Alternative? Start Crying and throw a Hissile Fit , Cancel all deals? Sink the one Sub we have? Tell AUS to cancel the deal with DCNS? Run around and pull out our hairs? Send gifts and present and award the Reporter for doing his Job ?? Ask the IN chief and DM Parrikar to resign and beg for mercy from the citizen of India ? oh wait Call the IN Intelligence he too should resign ! 
Get more people to check if there is more leaks and if YES , start all over again with Crying and throw a Hissile Fit and Cancel all deals? Wow that sound FUN!!!! Lets do that!

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## PARIKRAMA

Indrajit said:


> Seriously? You are entitled to whatever opinion you want but your attempts to go after the journalist in question is silly. According to you, there is nothing to bother, right? That position is yours to take but acting like everyone else who doesn't fall in line is gullible, naive or is pointless. if you believe there is nothing to the story, say so & move on. A lot of us disagree and we haven't all being bought or lack in intelligence.
> 
> It isn't embarrassment for India? Right? Tell it to the DM , the MoD and the navy who have been busy the last 24 odd hours desperately trying to keep a brave face. According to you, they should have all said who cares & gone back to sleep. Whether Australia was the main target & India was merely a side show is of no interest to me, all i know is that it is India who has been the subject of international spotlight and not at all in a pleasant way.
> 
> So we have gullible masses, _presstitute_ media, now of course including the international media and almost all our experts & retired high ranking officers who have suggested differently to your take on the matter are all either compromised, stupid or cunning.... all but just the couple of geniuses including yourself who are the sole repositories of all intelligence and are the sole keepers of the national interest _(and by default, that of DCNS)
> 
> You have no idea what the 22400 pages contain, no idea whether that is the total extent of the leak, yet you so masterfully & without a trace of doubt, pontificate on how the rest of the world, atleast this country of ours is filled with only the stupid, the gullible &/or the conniving. Quite simply, the arrogance of that position where you refuse to allow for even an iota of doubt is mind boggling. After all, no one else knows anything...unless of course they agree with you...._



That exactly is the position i wanted you to show.. bcz that clarifies that all logic and rationality can go to trash.. Perhaps you have not gone through all these pages thats why you feel i only believe that my view point is the correct viewpoint and nothing else is correct.

iota of doubt - lol - in what manner i did not say what those 22k if it contains proprietary part is non risky?

Indeed i am a genius.. and i am happy you could spot that.. but like everyone else who can doubt and keep doubting for next 100 years, the soldiers dont doubt when they get a weapon. They dont go out thinking their boats are compromised. or their weapons are compromised...

And yes i am also a sole keeper of DCNS (damn I missed Dassault Aviation whom i suppose to represent in the Rafale thread) perhaps a honorary French citizen sounds better.. Bcz everytime i prove with logic and rationality , i am either a DA employee or a DCNS connected one..

Nice .. I am happy you finally spotted me ..

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## Hellfire

Indrajit said:


> Seriously? You are entitled to whatever opinion you want but your attempts to go after the journalist in question is silly. According to you, there is nothing to bother, right? That position is yours to take but acting like everyone else who doesn't fall in line is gullible, naive or is pointless. if you believe there is nothing to the story, say so & move on. A lot of us disagree and we haven't all being bought or lack in intelligence.
> 
> It isn't embarrassment for India? Right? Tell it to the DM , the MoD and the navy who have been busy the last 24 odd hours desperately trying to keep a brave face. According to you, they should have all said who cares & gone back to sleep. Whether Australia was the main target & India was merely a side show is of no interest to me, all i know is that it is India who has been the subject of international spotlight and not at all in a pleasant way.
> 
> So we have gullible masses, _presstitute_ media, now of course including the international media and almost all our experts & retired high ranking officers who have suggested differently to your take on the matter are all either compromised, stupid or cunning.... all but just the couple of geniuses including yourself who are the sole repositories of all intelligence and are the sole keepers of the national interest _(and by default, that of DCNS)
> 
> You have no idea what the 22400 pages contain, no idea whether that is the total extent of the leak, yet you so masterfully & without a trace of doubt, pontificate on how the rest of the world, atleast this country of ours is filled with only the stupid, the gullible &/or the conniving. Quite simply, the arrogance of that position where you refuse to allow for even an iota of doubt is mind boggling. After all, no one else knows anything...unless of course they agree with you...._



Ok.

Humor me.

Going off topic and tangentially.

Bofors FH-77B. The deal was 500 guns off the shelf plus 1500 to be licence produced.

My intial days on PDF in 2009, I claimed TOT was completed in 1989, members here laughed, some have become very seniors and title holders since, I used to rarely post, nowadays just feel like , so do.


How did I know? Because army was aware of it, it was an open secret. And what happened? We spent scarce foreign reserves in those days, cried wolf, deprived ourselves of money as also equipment for next quarter of a century. So, by banning, we only shot ourselves in the foot. This is not only negligence, but an act of treason against the nation along with outright theft.

Now extrapolate it to Scorpene. The 1st is out. Firstly, I reiterate what I typed earlier, restricted classification is of no serious consequence. It is serious from confidential (not too serious) but becomes outright treason at secret classification.

Assuming the worst, you can tweak all your subsequent boats. Big effing difference. The OEM is bound by the contract, you have to do the necessary leg work and your own assessment. Cancelling it means effectively relegating naval underwater arm to being only a museum piece till next project gets online.

One has to be pragmatic and not get emotional.

Now let me extrapolate it to any weapon. Every tank, artillery and missile of army has its technical specifications on net. So what? It is again the quantum of force and your 'information denial' capability that shall decide your future battles.

Every tom, whose friend dick is hairy, talks of information warfare. That era is over, now it is denial. Your "Battle space management". You deny information to enemy.


Chill.

And your point of the journalist? He should be picked up by Australian Mil Intelligence for compromising the security of a friendly nation. Waiting for that.

Cheers

PS: I addressed you because the third generation in my family uses the same personal weapon, an effing 9mm SMC, in uniform, because arm chair warriors and experts know squat and talk rot.

Just my POV.

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## Indrajit

GuardianRED said:


> So what is the Alternative? Start Crying and throw a Hissile Fit , Cancel all deals? Sink the one Sub we have? Tell AUS to cancel the deal with DCNS? Run around and pull out our hairs? Send gifts and present and award the Reporter for doing his Job ?? Ask the IN chief and DM Parrikar to resign and beg for mercy from the citizen of India ? oh wait Call the IN Intelligence he too should resign !
> Get more people to check if there is more leaks and if YES , start all over again with Crying and throw a Hissile Fit and Cancel all deals? Wow that sound FUN!!!! Lets do that!



Nope, what is necessary is to look at this dispassionately and see where we stand, where we can go from here & what steps we take. All, entirely calmly. What MoD is saying is what is expected & what they should say. However that should not prevent us from looking at this closely which the MoD too will do, behind closed doors. There may be many guys sanguine about this issue here, not many in the MoD and the navy will share that.

The alternative to not doing what you say we should not do do is not to stick our heads in the sand.



hellfire said:


> Assuming the worst, you can tweak all your subsequent boats. Big effing difference. The OEM is bound by the contract, you have to do the necessary leg work and your own assessment. Cancelling it means effectively relegating naval underwater arm to being only a museum piece till next project gets online.



Nobody has spoken of cancellation, certainly not me. I have taken issue with some posts dismissing this as of no great consequence. Even to tweak implies an acknowledgement of a possible problem



> One has to be pragmatic and not get emotional.



Absolutely.




> And your point of the journalist? He should be picked up by Australian Mil Intelligence for compromising the security of a friendly nation. Waiting for that.



Again, going after the wrong guy. The journalists didn't compromise the _"security",_ he brought out the fact that it has been compromised. Are you saying we would have been better off not knowing that this information was out there thereby not even bothering to take any corrective action?

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## R!CK

Indrajit said:


> Again, going after the wrong guy. The journalists didn't compromise the _"security",_ he brought out the fact that it has been compromised. Are you saying we would have been better off not knowing that this information was out there thereby not even bothering to take any corrective action?



Just a curious question, going by your logic. If someone takes your nude pic and another guy publish it on the newspaper. You will thank the newspaper guy for letting you and everyone know that your picture was taken? Don't take me wrong, just confused by your logic.

Good Day to you!

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## Hellfire

Indrajit said:


> Nobody has spoken of cancellation, certainly not me. I have taken issue with some posts dismissing this as of no great consequence. Even to tweak implies an acknowledgement of a possible problem.



It *IS* of no great consequence, that is why one has to dismiss it as such.


Another example, an aircraft's design can only be in a certain way, the innovations and tweaking that could be done to produce an aerodynamic design with the minimal drag, have peaked and remained roughly static over the past decade and a half. So what changed? Engine - lighter, smaller with greater power. That also can add maximum 5-10% in these and efficiency criteria in various permutations and combinations. So, peaked.

Where is the money? Avionics. That is the only place where one can innovate and create new suites to enhance functionality.

Similarly, the specifications of any boat are known. A rough estimate can easily be made assuming the displacement and available engines world over. That data can be collated and extrapolated across multiple platforms. The difference comes in electronic suites, sensors and the individual boat's 'screw' acoustic signature. That, my dear friend, needs to be determined by Indian navy by tracking the sub in its sea trial phase continuously as various parameters are tested and a profile for own vessel made. The sonar, the torpedo etc, all is available in market, the data is also available. The difference is on what you add after the vessel goes operational. Think over it.



Indrajit said:


> Again, going after the wrong guy. The journalists didn't compromise the _"security",_ he brought out the fact that it has been compromised. Are you saying we would have been better off not knowing that this information was out there thereby not even bothering to take any corrective action?



I know of a certain operation which never took place officially. Can I go and shout out without being booked under Official Secrets Act of 1923 as amended time to time?

Also, being a friendly power, Australia will have to investigate the matter and inform accordingly. None of my concern if they impale him, I need my assets secured. That is all.

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## PARIKRAMA

Enjoy the next part

*It’s in the mail: how submarine secrets surfaced in Australia*





Secrets surfaced


The Australian
12:00AM August 27, 2016
*CAMERON STEWART*



Associate Editor
Melbourne
@camstewarttheoz
*In late April 2013 a Sydney postman reached into his satchel and pulled out a small envelope containing the secrets of India’s new submarine fleet.*

*He dropped the letter, with a Singapore stamp on it, in a private post office box and moved on.*

*The envelope, containing a small data disc, remained there for days, along with a Telstra bill and junk mail, before being picked up on April 24, 2013, by a man who took it home and pushed the disk into his computer.*

*This week the contents of that disk have become front-page news in Australia, India and France as each country grapples with the ramifications of an Edward Snowden-style leak of confidential documents disclosing the entire secret combat capability of India’s new Scorpene-class submarine fleet.*

The leak is of more than passing interest to Australia because the documents come from the same French shipbuilder, DCNS, that will design 12 submarines for the Royal Australian Navy in the country’s largest and most expensive defence project.

*But it is of far greater urgency to India, which fears that if a foreign spy service has acquired the data its six Scorpene submarines, costing a total of $US3 billion ($3.93bn), could be dead in the water before they sail. France is also in damage control as it tries to understand and explain how 22,400 of its secret documents on India’s submarines crossed the world to be delivered by a Sydney postie.*

*None of these three countries was aware of the leak until this week, when The Australian asked DCNS Australia on Monday afternoon to comment on an astonishing data file it had seen, marked “Restricted Scorpene India”, which laid bare almost every secret capability of India’s new submarines. These included the contracted parameters and capabilities of the submarine’s stealth features, its noise signatures at different speeds, its range, endurance, diving depths, magnetic and infra-red data. In other words, the full suite of submarine capability spread over 22,400 documents that any navy would consider to be classified and highly sensitive.*

*The news set off a remarkable chain of events, which says much about the high stakes involved for each country. On receiving questions about the leak from The Australian on Monday, the Canberra office of France’s DCNS immediately deferred to its head office in Paris.

The ramifications of a news story revealing the mega-data dump on such a sensitive project were immediately obvious. India would be furious, but so too would Malaysia, Chile and Brazil, which also have, or will soon have, DCNS Scorpene submarines. And Australia was also likely to be concerned about the security of its own new partnership with the French defence giant.

DCNS officials in Paris urgently checked their files, looking for signs of espionage.*

*On Tuesday morning, DCNS officials in Paris came back to their Canberra DCNS colleagues with the news that they could find no immediate evidence of a security breach that would explain such a massive data leak.

The DCNS team in Canberra met to workshop the problem. It was a sobering moment for them. The tight-knit group led by Sean Costello, former chief of staff to former defence minister David Johnston, were considered heroes by DCNS in Paris for pulling off an unlikely victory against the more heavily favoured Germans and Japanese to win the lucrative contract to design Australia’s future submarines. The leak was not their fault, but they would be saddled with its legacy, which would be that their commercial rivals would exploit every opportunity to say the French can never be trusted with Australia’s secrets.

The group reasoned that the most likely scenario was that a commercial competitor was seeking to sabotage the company and had somehow obtained and then leaked the data. The obvious suspects were the losers in the submarine bid, Germany and Japan, but why would they wait for four months after the decision to strike?*

If the leak was a global attack on DCNS then Norway, rather than Australia, would have been the obvious place to strike given that DCNS is now trying to pitch its Scorpene submarine to the Norwegian Navy, whereas the Australian deal was already stitched up.

DCNS had no answers and so it was assumed the most likely source of the leak was from the Indian side. The company wrote a carefully worded statement that implied — but did not state — that the leak came from India.

*By late Tuesday afternoon DCNS realised it had to tell the Australian government that some very bad news was to be published the next day. The company called the head of Defence’s Future Submarine Project, Rear Admiral Greg Sammut, who then called Defence Department secretary Dennis Richardson. Defence Industry Minister Christopher Pyne was also briefed.*

*In New Delhi, India’s Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar was asleep when an aide woke him at midnight and showed him the report on The Australian’s website.*

For Parrikar the news was devastating. He had a strong personal investment in India’s Scorpene submarines. Just over a year earlier, on April 6, 2015, he had watched the “undocking” ceremony in Mumbai as the first of India’s six Scorpene submarines, Kalvari, meaning Tiger Shark, was celebrated. The new submarine, decked in garlands and Indian flags, represented the pinnacle of the Indian Navy. A prayer ceremony was held to bless the boat.

The Scorpenes were a badly needed replacement for India’s ageing fleet of Russian Kilo-class and German Type 209 submarines that were almost three decades old and often confined to port with technical problems.

The DCNS Scorpene, however, was ordered in 2005 to spearhead India’s submarine fleet because, it boasted, in the words of the _Indian Express_: “Stealth features (which) give it invulnerability, unmatched by many submarines.”

But as Parrikar woke, the invulnerability of his pet project was in doubt. He ordered his chief of navy to launch an urgent investigation into the leak and what damage it had potentially caused.

At 6.30am in Australia, Pyne had read _The Australian’s_ report and was soon on the phone to Richardson to discuss how to respond.

*Sources say Richardson was of the view that Australia’s own security arrangements surrounding the new submarine project were already robust and there was no need to reinvent the wheel on security just because of the leak.*

*Pyne agreed, but also wanted to give a gentle message to the French. He asked Richardson to convey “a reminder” to DCNS that Australia expects the security of classified information on the future submarine project to be as tight as Australia’s handling of security information with its closest ally, the US. The subtext was, this is serious, don’t let this happen again.*

*But Pyne also knew the story would run strongly in Australia unless he tried to kill it quickly, so at about 8.30am he issued a press release claiming — without having access to the 22,400 leaked documents — that Defence had advised that the leak would have “no bearing” on Australia’s submarine program.*

It was a public statement at odds with his private instruction to Richardson, but in Pyne’s view the quicker he could wash Australia’s hands of what he knew would be a nasty international furore the better.

*India woke on Wednesday to the report that its submarine fleet had been potentially compromised by the leak of thousands of secret documents. Within hours it was the biggest story in the country. Under pressure to provide a quick answer, Parrikar said the leak appeared to be a case of hacking but he offered nothing to support this theory, which he later backed away from.

In Paris, DCNS realised it had a public relations and security disaster on its hands, with the story being reported on the front page of the newspaper Le Monde, followed the next day by a front-page cartoon lampooning the French security services.

DCNS backed away from the claim that India had caused the leak and the French government stepped in to announce that its defence security officials would investigate.

The Indian government also announced an investigation, but with every major Indian newspaper reporting the story on its front page, the government urged patience until its navy could assess the leak and the damage caused.*

But it seems that the story behind this leak may be more incompetence than espionage — more Austin Powers than James Bond._ The Weekend Australian _has been told by sources that the data was removed from DCNS in Paris in 2011 by a former French Navy officer who quit the service in the early 1970s and worked for French defence companies for more than 30 years before becoming a subcontractor to DCNS.

Sources say they believe this subcontractor somehow copied the sensitive data from DCNS in France and, along with a French colleague, took it to a Southeast Asian country. If so, he broke the law and may face prosecution.

The two men worked in that Southeast Asian country carrying out unclassified naval defence work.

The speculation is that the data on the Scorpene was removed to serve as a reference guide for the former naval officer’s new job, but it is unclear why anyone would risk breaking the law by taking classified data for such a purpose.

The two men are then said to have the fallen out with their employer, a private company run by a Western businessman. They were sacked and refused re-entry to their building. At least one of the men asked to retrieve the data on the Scorpene but they were refused and the company — possibly not knowing the significance of the data — held on to it.

The secret data was then sent to the company’s head office in Singapore, where the company’s IT chief — again probably not knowing its significance — tried to load it on an internet server for the person in Sydney who was slated to replace the two sacked French workers.

The data was placed on a server on April 18, 2013, and it was then that it was dangerously vulnerable to hacking or interception by a foreign intelligence service. It is not known whether the data stayed on this server for a few days or for a year. It is not known if any foreign intelligence service obtained it during this time.

Unable to send such a large file over the net and not knowing the significance of the data, the Singapore company sent it on a data disk by regular post to Sydney.

When the recipient, who was experienced in defence issues, opened the file on his home computer he was stunned. He was expecting to read notes on a low-level naval program, but before him lay the secret capabilities of the new Indian submarine fleet.

The data was not encrypted so he transferred it to an encrypted disk. That evening the man wiped the old disk with special software, grabbed a hammer and smashed it to pieces in his backyard.

He placed the new encrypted disk in a locked filing cabinet in his office and there it remained for more than two years.

In the back room of Cafe Loco, in the Melbourne suburb of Elsternwick, the man arrives, sits down and pulls out a data disk from his pocket. He orders a hamburger then slips the disk into his laptop. He says he has something to show me, but not give to me.

Why are you doing this I ask?

He replies: “In the wake of the recent future submarine decision (in Australia) this matter went from one of a very serious breach for both France and India to a matter of national security significance to Australia and the US.”

In other words, he wants Australia to know that its future submarine partner, France, has already lost control of secret data on India’s new submarines. His hope is that this will spur the Turnbull government and DCNS to step up security to ensure Australia’s $50 billion submarine project does not suffer the same fate.

He says he is a whistleblower and maintains that revealing to the world, via _The Australian, _that this classified data exists in a dangerously uncontrolled form is worthwhile because it will serve Australia’s interests even if it causes an international furore.

He presses a button on his computer and his screen flickers to life.

Here in a Melbourne cafe, amid the clatter of plates, laughter and the smell of coffee, he scrolls through the secrets of India’s submarine fleet. He has not broken any laws and the authorities know who he is. He plans to surrender the disk to the government on Monday.

Source:http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...bb358581cf27819acfb+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=in

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## 911

Its too early to jump on any conclusion, only time will tell. What is not being compromised in India anyways? From hardware to software everything is imported, even in government offices. Unless we become self reliant on everything, these incidents will keep happening.

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## Spectre

PARIKRAMA said:


> Enjoy the next part
> 
> *It’s in the mail: how submarine secrets surfaced in Australia*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Secrets surfaced
> 
> 
> The Australian
> 12:00AM August 27, 2016
> *CAMERON STEWART*
> 
> 
> 
> Associate Editor
> Melbourne
> @camstewarttheoz
> *In late April 2013 a Sydney postman reached into his satchel and pulled out a small envelope containing the secrets of India’s new submarine fleet.*
> 
> *He dropped the letter, with a Singapore stamp on it, in a private post office box and moved on.*
> 
> *The envelope, containing a small data disc, remained there for days, along with a Telstra bill and junk mail, before being picked up on April 24, 2013, by a man who took it home and pushed the disk into his computer.*
> 
> *This week the contents of that disk have become front-page news in Australia, India and France as each country grapples with the ramifications of an Edward Snowden-style leak of confidential documents disclosing the entire secret combat capability of India’s new Scorpene-class submarine fleet.*
> 
> The leak is of more than passing interest to Australia because the documents come from the same French shipbuilder, DCNS, that will design 12 submarines for the Royal Australian Navy in the country’s largest and most expensive defence project.
> 
> *But it is of far greater urgency to India, which fears that if a foreign spy service has acquired the data its six Scorpene submarines, costing a total of $US3 billion ($3.93bn), could be dead in the water before they sail. France is also in damage control as it tries to understand and explain how 22,400 of its secret documents on India’s submarines crossed the world to be delivered by a Sydney postie.*
> 
> *None of these three countries was aware of the leak until this week, when The Australian asked DCNS Australia on Monday afternoon to comment on an astonishing data file it had seen, marked “Restricted Scorpene India”, which laid bare almost every secret capability of India’s new submarines. These included the contracted parameters and capabilities of the submarine’s stealth features, its noise signatures at different speeds, its range, endurance, diving depths, magnetic and infra-red data. In other words, the full suite of submarine capability spread over 22,400 documents that any navy would consider to be classified and highly sensitive.*
> 
> *The news set off a remarkable chain of events, which says much about the high stakes involved for each country. On receiving questions about the leak from The Australian on Monday, the Canberra office of France’s DCNS immediately deferred to its head office in Paris.
> 
> The ramifications of a news story revealing the mega-data dump on such a sensitive project were immediately obvious. India would be furious, but so too would Malaysia, Chile and Brazil, which also have, or will soon have, DCNS Scorpene submarines. And Australia was also likely to be concerned about the security of its own new partnership with the French defence giant.
> 
> DCNS officials in Paris urgently checked their files, looking for signs of espionage.*
> 
> *On Tuesday morning, DCNS officials in Paris came back to their Canberra DCNS colleagues with the news that they could find no immediate evidence of a security breach that would explain such a massive data leak.
> 
> The DCNS team in Canberra met to workshop the problem. It was a sobering moment for them. The tight-knit group led by Sean Costello, former chief of staff to former defence minister David Johnston, were considered heroes by DCNS in Paris for pulling off an unlikely victory against the more heavily favoured Germans and Japanese to win the lucrative contract to design Australia’s future submarines. The leak was not their fault, but they would be saddled with its legacy, which would be that their commercial rivals would exploit every opportunity to say the French can never be trusted with Australia’s secrets.
> 
> The group reasoned that the most likely scenario was that a commercial competitor was seeking to sabotage the company and had somehow obtained and then leaked the data. The obvious suspects were the losers in the submarine bid, Germany and Japan, but why would they wait for four months after the decision to strike?*
> 
> If the leak was a global attack on DCNS then Norway, rather than Australia, would have been the obvious place to strike given that DCNS is now trying to pitch its Scorpene submarine to the Norwegian Navy, whereas the Australian deal was already stitched up.
> 
> DCNS had no answers and so it was assumed the most likely source of the leak was from the Indian side. The company wrote a carefully worded statement that implied — but did not state — that the leak came from India.
> 
> *By late Tuesday afternoon DCNS realised it had to tell the Australian government that some very bad news was to be published the next day. The company called the head of Defence’s Future Submarine Project, Rear Admiral Greg Sammut, who then called Defence Department secretary Dennis Richardson. Defence Industry Minister Christopher Pyne was also briefed.*
> 
> *In New Delhi, India’s Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar was asleep when an aide woke him at midnight and showed him the report on The Australian’s website.*
> 
> For Parrikar the news was devastating. He had a strong personal investment in India’s Scorpene submarines. Just over a year earlier, on April 6, 2015, he had watched the “undocking” ceremony in Mumbai as the first of India’s six Scorpene submarines, Kalvari, meaning Tiger Shark, was celebrated. The new submarine, decked in garlands and Indian flags, represented the pinnacle of the Indian Navy. A prayer ceremony was held to bless the boat.
> 
> The Scorpenes were a badly needed replacement for India’s ageing fleet of Russian Kilo-class and German Type 209 submarines that were almost three decades old and often confined to port with technical problems.
> 
> The DCNS Scorpene, however, was ordered in 2005 to spearhead India’s submarine fleet because, it boasted, in the words of the _Indian Express_: “Stealth features (which) give it invulnerability, unmatched by many submarines.”
> 
> But as Parrikar woke, the invulnerability of his pet project was in doubt. He ordered his chief of navy to launch an urgent investigation into the leak and what damage it had potentially caused.
> 
> At 6.30am in Australia, Pyne had read _The Australian’s_ report and was soon on the phone to Richardson to discuss how to respond.
> 
> *Sources say Richardson was of the view that Australia’s own security arrangements surrounding the new submarine project were already robust and there was no need to reinvent the wheel on security just because of the leak.*
> 
> *Pyne agreed, but also wanted to give a gentle message to the French. He asked Richardson to convey “a reminder” to DCNS that Australia expects the security of classified information on the future submarine project to be as tight as Australia’s handling of security information with its closest ally, the US. The subtext was, this is serious, don’t let this happen again.*
> 
> *But Pyne also knew the story would run strongly in Australia unless he tried to kill it quickly, so at about 8.30am he issued a press release claiming — without having access to the 22,400 leaked documents — that Defence had advised that the leak would have “no bearing” on Australia’s submarine program.*
> 
> It was a public statement at odds with his private instruction to Richardson, but in Pyne’s view the quicker he could wash Australia’s hands of what he knew would be a nasty international furore the better.
> 
> *India woke on Wednesday to the report that its submarine fleet had been potentially compromised by the leak of thousands of secret documents. Within hours it was the biggest story in the country. Under pressure to provide a quick answer, Parrikar said the leak appeared to be a case of hacking but he offered nothing to support this theory, which he later backed away from.
> 
> In Paris, DCNS realised it had a public relations and security disaster on its hands, with the story being reported on the front page of the newspaper Le Monde, followed the next day by a front-page cartoon lampooning the French security services.
> 
> DCNS backed away from the claim that India had caused the leak and the French government stepped in to announce that its defence security officials would investigate.
> 
> The Indian government also announced an investigation, but with every major Indian newspaper reporting the story on its front page, the government urged patience until its navy could assess the leak and the damage caused.*
> 
> But it seems that the story behind this leak may be more incompetence than espionage — more Austin Powers than James Bond._ The Weekend Australian _has been told by sources that the data was removed from DCNS in Paris in 2011 by a former French Navy officer who quit the service in the early 1970s and worked for French defence companies for more than 30 years before becoming a subcontractor to DCNS.
> 
> Sources say they believe this subcontractor somehow copied the sensitive data from DCNS in France and, along with a French colleague, took it to a Southeast Asian country. If so, he broke the law and may face prosecution.
> 
> The two men worked in that Southeast Asian country carrying out unclassified naval defence work.
> 
> The speculation is that the data on the Scorpene was removed to serve as a reference guide for the former naval officer’s new job, but it is unclear why anyone would risk breaking the law by taking classified data for such a purpose.
> 
> The two men are then said to have the fallen out with their employer, a private company run by a Western businessman. They were sacked and refused re-entry to their building. At least one of the men asked to retrieve the data on the Scorpene but they were refused and the company — possibly not knowing the significance of the data — held on to it.
> 
> The secret data was then sent to the company’s head office in Singapore, where the company’s IT chief — again probably not knowing its significance — tried to load it on an internet server for the person in Sydney who was slated to replace the two sacked French workers.
> 
> The data was placed on a server on April 18, 2013, and it was then that it was dangerously vulnerable to hacking or interception by a foreign intelligence service. It is not known whether the data stayed on this server for a few days or for a year. It is not known if any foreign intelligence service obtained it during this time.
> 
> Unable to send such a large file over the net and not knowing the significance of the data, the Singapore company sent it on a data disk by regular post to Sydney.
> 
> When the recipient, who was experienced in defence issues, opened the file on his home computer he was stunned. He was expecting to read notes on a low-level naval program, but before him lay the secret capabilities of the new Indian submarine fleet.
> 
> The data was not encrypted so he transferred it to an encrypted disk. That evening the man wiped the old disk with special software, grabbed a hammer and smashed it to pieces in his backyard.
> 
> He placed the new encrypted disk in a locked filing cabinet in his office and there it remained for more than two years.
> 
> In the back room of Cafe Loco, in the Melbourne suburb of Elsternwick, the man arrives, sits down and pulls out a data disk from his pocket. He orders a hamburger then slips the disk into his laptop. He says he has something to show me, but not give to me.
> 
> Why are you doing this I ask?
> 
> He replies: “In the wake of the recent future submarine decision (in Australia) this matter went from one of a very serious breach for both France and India to a matter of national security significance to Australia and the US.”
> 
> In other words, he wants Australia to know that its future submarine partner, France, has already lost control of secret data on India’s new submarines. His hope is that this will spur the Turnbull government and DCNS to step up security to ensure Australia’s $50 billion submarine project does not suffer the same fate.
> 
> He says he is a whistleblower and maintains that revealing to the world, via _The Australian, _that this classified data exists in a dangerously uncontrolled form is worthwhile because it will serve Australia’s interests even if it causes an international furore.
> 
> He presses a button on his computer and his screen flickers to life.
> 
> Here in a Melbourne cafe, amid the clatter of plates, laughter and the smell of coffee, he scrolls through the secrets of India’s submarine fleet. He has not broken any laws and the authorities know who he is. He plans to surrender the disk to the government on Monday.
> 
> Source:http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...bb358581cf27819acfb+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=in



For Frak's sake - What is DCNS? A McDonald's or a Walmart????

And the switchroo from intial blaming India to then backing out of that. Not informing India directly which is impacted but informing Australians first. It is highly embarrassing that DM had to be woken up in the middle of night by an aide who saw the Aussie paper report online instead of being given prior information by DCNS which knew about it atleast a day before. DM said so himself..@PARIKRAMA why is that DCNS didn't inform India directly?

I expect MoD to refute this chain of event else India would have lost lot of credibility.

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## Ankit Kumar 002

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/769228236412837889

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## GuardianRED

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/769228236412837889


And this one Happy to take credit !!! (Slow Clap)

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## Ankit Kumar 002

GuardianRED said:


> And this one Happy to take credit !!! (Slow Clap)



If its not DCNS, its his employer getting more business, means he too making more money.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## [Bregs]

R!CK said:


> Just a curious question, going by your logic. If someone takes your nude pic and another guy publish it on the newspaper. You will thank the newspaper guy for letting you and everyone know that your picture was taken? Don't take me wrong, just confused by your logic.
> 
> Good Day to you!

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## Ankit Kumar 002

I just came across the term " Floating Coffins ".

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## amused_burger

Save face over here and use the opportunity to quash any regret-burdened deals with the French that are proving to be costly and unattractive, no?

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## PARIKRAMA

Spectre said:


> For Frak's sake - What is DCNS? A McDonald's or a Walmart????
> 
> And the switchroo from intial blaming India to then backing out of that. Not informing India directly which is impacted but informing Australians first. It is highly embarrassing that DM had to be woken up in the middle of night by an aide who saw the Aussie paper report online instead of being given prior information by DCNS which knew about it atleast a day before. DM said so himself..@PARIKRAMA why is that DCNS didn't inform India directly?
> 
> I expect MoD to refute this chain of event else India would have lost lot of credibility.



Again a long post.. apologies in advance and please bear with me.. its a fascinating story fr me.


Well guess what.. the subscription to the Australian newspaper is pretty high..
Now you think any aide in the middle of the night will wake up say DM MP and show him over laptop or tab this news report? and yes that also using the same like me "google cache" and DM MP will swing into action?

Secondly if DCNS has not informed under any pretense, you think DM MP will not shy away from saying bluntly or calling up French folks and asking what the hell is happening? why you folks did nt inform us?

Now comes the long part... you read this part
_the data was removed from DCNS in Paris in 2011 by a former French Navy officer who quit the service in the early 1970s and worked for French defence companies for more than 30 years before becoming a subcontractor to DCNS.

Sources say they believe this subcontractor *somehow copied the sensitive data* from DCNS in France and, along with a French colleague, took it to a Southeast Asian country. If so, he broke the law and may face prosecution.

The two men worked in that *Southeast Asian country* carrying out *unclassified naval defence work.*

The speculation is that the data on the Scorpene was removed to serve as a reference guide for the former naval officer’s new job, but it is unclear why anyone would risk breaking the law by taking classified data for such a purpose.

The two men are then said to have the fallen out with their employer, a private company run by a Western businessman. They were sacked and refused re-entry to their building. At least one of the men asked to retrieve the data on the Scorpene but they were refused and the company — possibly not knowing the significance of the data — held on to it._

and
_He replies: “In the wake of the recent future submarine decision (in Australia) this matter went from one of a very serious breach for both France and India to a matter of national security significance to Australia and the US.”

In other words, he wants Australia to know that its future submarine partner, France, has already lost control of secret data on India’s new submarines. His hope is that this will spur the Turnbull government and DCNS to step up security to ensure Australia’s $50 billion submarine project does not suffer the same fate.

He says he is a whistleblower and maintains that revealing to the world, via The Australian, that this classified data exists in a dangerously uncontrolled form is worthwhile because it will serve Australia’s interests even if it causes an international furore.

_
I was waiting for this really.

First thing.. Data was removed in Paris 2011. Lets establish properly a timeline 2011 data leaked
*On June 7th 2011 *the first local indigenisation component for scorpene was signed and* delivery happened of the component in Feb 2012. Here is the irrefutable proof*






Source: http://www.ambafrance-in.org/Delivery-of-first-locally-produced
*Thats french embassy in New Delhi website.*


*Now a leak in 2011, data of prior periods and a manual containing all technical specs for which contract for indian production local parts started inking in June 7th 2011 with Flash Forge, the first company in India to sign the contract and begin its work for 1st scorpene now in sea trials.*
The construction of Kalavari began in *2009* and* it was waiting for multiple sub systems to arrive for the submarine to be under construction in 2011 and 2012 also when parts started arriving.*
*In simple words other than the basic hull being constructed all the important equipment were more or less started going inside the sub in 2012 (FF work is properly towards fitting inside the submarine and its a JV company for TOT part)*







*So can anyone understand how operational manuals are there for a submarine where equipment inside is infact not made or even contracted? Do you make operational manual for a system like a submarine where order of systems are not even given or contracted? and that also for the very 1st submarine?*

You understood the whole thing now.. why i had been lying with cool head and saying stuff all through last couple of days...

@Abingdonboy @hellfire @Vergennes @Ankit Kumar 002 @GuardianRED https://defence.pk/members/bregs.148509/ @anant_s @all others

Read slowly, digest and assimilate what i am trying to say.. connect the dots.. you will understand..

Tagging the world
Pls enlighten me for post #526.

@Abingdonboy @anant_s @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @Vergennes @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @MilSpec @Koovie @Echo_419 @Dash @hellfire @ito @SR-91 @AMCA @DesiGuy1403 @ranjeet @hellfire @fsayed @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Sergi @Water Car Engineer @dadeechi @kurup @Rain Man @kaykay @Joe Shearer @Tshering22 @Dandpatta @danger007 @Didact @Soumitra @SrNair @TejasMk3@jbgt90 @ranjeet @4GTejasBVR @The_Showstopper @guest11 @egodoc222 @Nilgiri @SarthakGanguly @Omega007 @GURU DUTT @HariPrasad @JanjaWeed @litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular @Spectre@litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular@Ryuzaki @CorporateAffairs @GR!FF!N @migflug @Levina@SvenSvensonov @-xXx- @Perpendicular @proud_indian @Mustang06 @Param @Local_Legend @Ali Zadi @hellfire @egodoc222 @CorporateAffairs @Major Shaitan Singh @jha @SmilingBuddha @#hydra# @danish_vij @[Bregs] @Skillrex @Hephaestus @SR-91 @Techy @litefire @R!CK @zebra7 @dev_moh @DesiGuy1403 @itachii @nik141993 @Marxist @Glorino @noksss @jbgt90 @Skull and Bones @Kraitcorp @Crixus @waz @WAJsal @Oscar @AugenBlick @Star Wars @GuardianRED @arp2041 @Aero @others

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## GuardianRED

PARIKRAMA said:


> Again a long post.. apologies in advance and please bear with me.. its a fascinating story fr me.
> 
> 
> Well guess what.. the subscription to the Australian newspaper is pretty high..
> Now you think any aide in the middle of the night will wake up say DM MP and show him over laptop or tab this news report? and yes that also using the same like me "google cache" and DM MP will swing into action?
> 
> Secondly if DCNS has not informed under any pretense, you think DM MP will not shy away from saying bluntly or calling up French folks and asking what the hell is happening? why you folks did nt inform us?
> 
> Now comes the long part... you read this part
> _the data was removed from DCNS in Paris in 2011 by a former French Navy officer who quit the service in the early 1970s and worked for French defence companies for more than 30 years before becoming a subcontractor to DCNS.
> 
> Sources say they believe this subcontractor *somehow copied the sensitive data* from DCNS in France and, along with a French colleague, took it to a Southeast Asian country. If so, he broke the law and may face prosecution.
> 
> The two men worked in that *Southeast Asian country* carrying out *unclassified naval defence work.*
> 
> The speculation is that the data on the Scorpene was removed to serve as a reference guide for the former naval officer’s new job, but it is unclear why anyone would risk breaking the law by taking classified data for such a purpose.
> 
> The two men are then said to have the fallen out with their employer, a private company run by a Western businessman. They were sacked and refused re-entry to their building. At least one of the men asked to retrieve the data on the Scorpene but they were refused and the company — possibly not knowing the significance of the data — held on to it._
> 
> and
> _He replies: “In the wake of the recent future submarine decision (in Australia) this matter went from one of a very serious breach for both France and India to a matter of national security significance to Australia and the US.”
> 
> In other words, he wants Australia to know that its future submarine partner, France, has already lost control of secret data on India’s new submarines. His hope is that this will spur the Turnbull government and DCNS to step up security to ensure Australia’s $50 billion submarine project does not suffer the same fate.
> 
> He says he is a whistleblower and maintains that revealing to the world, via The Australian, that this classified data exists in a dangerously uncontrolled form is worthwhile because it will serve Australia’s interests even if it causes an international furore.
> 
> _
> I was waiting for this really.
> 
> First thing.. Data was removed in Paris 2011. Lets establish properly a timeline 2011 data leaked
> *On June 7th 2011 *the first local indigenisation component for scorpene was signed and* delivery happened of the component in Feb 2012. Here is the irrefutable proof*
> 
> View attachment 329257
> 
> Source: http://www.ambafrance-in.org/Delivery-of-first-locally-produced
> *Thats french embassy in New Delhi website.*
> 
> 
> *Now a leak in 2011, data of prior periods and a manual containing all technical specs for which contract for indian production local parts started inking in June 7th 2011 with Flash Forge, the first company in India to sign the contract and begin its work for 1st scorpene now in sea trials.*
> The construction of Kalavari began in *2009* and* it was waiting for multiple sub systems to arrive for the submarine to be completely constructed in 2011 also and 2012 also when parts started arriving.*
> *In simple words other than the basic hull being constructed all the important equipment were more or less started going inside the sub in 2012 (FF work is properly towards fitting inside the submarine and its a JV company for TOT part)*
> 
> View attachment 329258
> 
> 
> 
> *So can anyone understand how operational manuals are there for a submarine where equipment inside is infact not made or even contracted? Do you make operational manual for a system like a submarine where order of systems are not even given or contracted? and that also for the very 1st submarine?*
> 
> You understood the whole thing now.. why i had been lying with cool head and saying stuff all through last couple of days...
> 
> @Abingdonboy @hellfire @Vergennes @Ankit Kumar 002 @GuardianRED https://defence.pk/members/bregs.148509/ @anant_s @all others
> 
> Read slowly, digest and assimilate what i am trying to say.. connect the dots.. you will understand..
> 
> Tagging the world
> Pls enlighten me for post #526.
> 
> @Abingdonboy @anant_s @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @Vergennes @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @MilSpec @Koovie @Echo_419 @Dash @hellfire @ito @SR-91 @AMCA @DesiGuy1403 @ranjeet @hellfire @fsayed @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Sergi @Water Car Engineer @dadeechi @kurup @Rain Man @kaykay @Joe Shearer @Tshering22 @Dandpatta @danger007 @Didact @Soumitra @SrNair @TejasMk3@jbgt90 @ranjeet @4GTejasBVR @The_Showstopper @guest11 @egodoc222 @Nilgiri @SarthakGanguly @Omega007 @GURU DUTT @HariPrasad @JanjaWeed @litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular @Spectre@litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular@Ryuzaki @CorporateAffairs @GR!FF!N @migflug @Levina@SvenSvensonov @-xXx- @Perpendicular @proud_indian @Mustang06 @Param @Local_Legend @Ali Zadi @hellfire @egodoc222 @CorporateAffairs @Major Shaitan Singh @jha @SmilingBuddha @#hydra# @danish_vij @[Bregs] @Skillrex @Hephaestus @SR-91 @Techy @litefire @R!CK @zebra7 @dev_moh @DesiGuy1403 @itachii @nik141993 @Marxist @Glorino @noksss @jbgt90 @Skull and Bones @Kraitcorp @Crixus @waz @WAJsal @Oscar @AugenBlick @Star Wars @GuardianRED @arp2041 @Aero @others


This would suggest that the manual were made to atleast train a crew to be familiar with the equipment PARALLEL to the building of the Subs. This Same crew will stand to be instructors to understand and make new manuals, protocols and procedures for the following dedicated Crews that will eventually manned the subs!

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## Spectre

PARIKRAMA said:


> Now you think any aide in the middle of the night will wake up say DM MP and show him over laptop or tab this news report



Well to be fair, DM himself said that he was woken up in middle of night by his aid with this news while it's clear from the report that DCNS was asked for quotes atleast a day before and then subsequently informed Australian Admiral. 

As for rest of your post - Give me time to absorb - there is lot of data.

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## PARIKRAMA

GuardianRED said:


> This would suggest that the manual were made to atleast train a crew to be familiar with the equipment PARALLEL to the building of the Subs. This Same crew will stand to be instructors to understand and make new manuals, protocols and procedures for the following dedicated Crews that will eventually manned the subs!



assuming that submarine progam is late.. will you get a Indian Navy insignia based operational manual for a customised scorpene submarine?
where will you train a crew when there is no similar sub in the world with same specs.. Unless its a classroom training..

supposing your point of view is correct, then how will the manual have specs with finer points when contract is not even signed for many systems which can have better than the specs mentioned or parts being swapped by another OEM.

imagining if the manual is correct is not it the least form of rough specs for academic/technical purposes but for authorized personnels distribution (restricted)?

can you see where i am now trying to point..

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## GuardianRED

PARIKRAMA said:


> assuming that submarine progam is late.. will you get a Indian Navy insignia based operational manual for a customised scorpene submarine?
> where will you train a crew when there is no similar sub in the world with same specs.. Unless its a classroom training..
> 
> supposing your point of view is correct, then how will the manual have specs with finer points when contract is not even signed for many systems which can have better than the specs mentioned or parts being swapped by another OEM.
> 
> imagining if the manual is correct is not it the least form of rough specs for academic/technical purposes but for authorized personnels distribution (restricted)?
> 
> can you see where i am now trying to point..


U are trying to say that it a possibility that these might be older existing manuals BUT as a cruel Joke, Slapped the IN Insignia and other markings on it to pass as the manuals for the IN scorpene program?

+ The IN and MoD hasn't yet *denied or accepted *that these are the manuals for the programs (have they?)

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## PARIKRAMA

GuardianRED said:


> U are trying to say that it a possibility that these might be older existing manuals BUT as a cruel Joke, Slapped the IN Insignia and other markings on it to pass as the manuals for the IN scorpene program?


Hail wikipedia





https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scorpène-class_submarine

Operational Manuals from boats prior made.. possibly with basic changes to incorporate general stuff offered to India . manual is not classified which gets updated over multiple versions and access gets reduced based on authority and level of additions.. 

and something interesting


EagleEyes said:


> T*he Chilean Scorpene will have a hull-mounted medium-frequency active / passive sonar. The vessels are armed with WASS (Whitehead Alenia Sistemi Subaquei) Black Shark heavyweight torpedoes*.





EagleEyes said:


> *SUBTICS COMBAT MANAGEMENT SYSTEM*
> 
> The SUBTICS combat management system, with up to six multifunction common consoles and a centrally situated tactical table, is collocated with the platform-control facilities.
> 
> *The combat management system is composed of a command and tactical data handling system, a weapon control system and an integrated suite of acoustic sensors with an interface to a set of air surface detection sensors and to the integrated navigation system. The system can also download data from external sources.*
> 
> *The integrated navigation system combines data from global positioning systems, the log, depth measurement and the ship's trim / list monitoring system. The Scorpene monitors the environment including seawater density and temperature and the submarine's own noise signature*.





EagleEyes said:


> *SONAR SUITE*
> 
> *The vessel's sonar suite includes a long-range passive cylindrical array, an intercept sonar, active sonar, distributed array, flank array, a high-resolution sonar for mine and obstacle avoidance and a towed array*.



Source: https://defence.pk/threads/ssk-scorpene-attack-submarine-chile.4978/

Kindly check for the PDFs shared again.. Do you see what i see here..

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## Ali Zadi

PARIKRAMA said:


> Again a long post.. apol...



That is exactly what I was thinking and thought the year might have been fudged/misreported. The other possibility is using a preexisting model/manual for basic training not advance system specific training. 

But I still think the leak is of paramount importance specially for people who have had no expose to any Scorpene will get a look at what a standard submarine has to offer. Its like you buy a car add a turbo in it and 4x4 and other nic-knacks the base of the car will remain the same, the structural integrity and things like true speed, angle speed, etc are hard to change unless you change the composition/structure/etc.

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## nik22

There may be other documents which are not in public domain yet.

MOD should not issue any statement in haste that it does not compromise scorpene program ...

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## GuardianRED

PARIKRAMA said:


> Hail wikipedia
> 
> View attachment 329259
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scorpène-class_submarine
> 
> Operational Manuals from boats prior made.. possibly with basic changes to incorporate general stuff offered to India . manual is not classified which gets updated over multiple versions and access gets reduced based on authority and level of additions..
> 
> and something interesting
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Source: https://defence.pk/threads/ssk-scorpene-attack-submarine-chile.4978/
> 
> Kindly check for the PDFs shared again.. Do you see what i see here..


DAMN!... what @EagleEyes posted was in 2007!!!! Its has the same quotes!!!!

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## PARIKRAMA

GuardianRED said:


> DAMN!... what @EagleEyes posted was in 2007!!!! Its has the same quotes!!!!



Finally the pieces will come together.. The more The Australian reporter reveals the more it will become easier to conclude more confidently.

@Nilgiri - In here..
@Blue Marlin - You will love this story now developing with the story behind the leakage part..

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## Blue Marlin

PARIKRAMA said:


> Finally the pieces will come together.. The more The Australian reporter reveals the more it will become easier to conclude more confidently.
> 
> @Nilgiri - In here..
> @Blue Marlin - You will love this story now developing with the story behind the leakage part..


actualy @Levina discovered webby changed his user name to eagleeyes and made him self a new account

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## PARIKRAMA

+++

Lets add some more news here

*Paris prosecutor opens investigation into naval contractor DCNS data leak*





A logo is seen at the industrial site of the naval defence company and shipbuilder DCNS in La Montagne near Nantes, France, April 26, 2016.REUTERS/Stephane Mahe/Files

*The Paris public prosecutor opened a preliminary investigation after French naval contractor DCNS filed a complaint for breach of trust over a leak of documents concerning six Scorpene submarines it is building for India, a judicial source said.*

DCNS was left reeling after details from more than 22,000 pages of documents relating to submarines it is building for India were published in The Australian newspaper this week, sparking concerns about the company's ability to protect sensitive data.

*"We filed a complaint against unknown persons for breach of trust with the Paris prosecutor on Thursday afternoon," a spokesman for the shipbuilder said on Friday.

The Paris prosecutor's office opened an investigation for breach of trust, receiving stolen goods and complicity, the judicial source said later on Friday.

A French government source said on Thursday that DCNS had apparently been robbed and it was not a leak, adding it was unlikely that classified data was stolen.*

The Australian government said on Friday it had asked DCNS to take new security measures in Australia, where the company is locked in exclusive negotiations to build a new fleet of submarines for 50 billion Australian dollars ($38 bln).

DCNS said earlier this week that the leak, which covered details of the Scorpene-class model and not the vessel currently being designed for the Australian fleet, bore the hallmarks of "economic warfare" carried out by frustrated competitors.

($1 = 1.3104 Australian dollars)

(Reporting by Cyril Altmeyer and Gerard Bon; Writing by Bate Felix; Editing by Susan Fenton)

http://in.reuters.com/article/franc...CN1110PK?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter

@Vergennes @BON PLAN
Looks like the battle started there legally

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## GuardianRED

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/769191033930387456https://twitter.com/DailyO_/status/769191033930387456
This guy is enjoying his 15mins of fame!

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## sathya

By breach of secrecy, can India install measures without OEM consent ?

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## GuardianRED

This Aussie reporter reminded me of another Aussie Story that sent Shockwave to the world During the CWG 2010 India

Episode 34, 27 September 2010





*Defusing an explosive story*
Channel Seven's explosive investigation into New Delhi's Commonwealth Games security sent shockwaves around the world. However, as Media Watch discovered, what looked like a major breach of security by reporter Mike Duffy was not quite what it seemed. And was Duffy's suitcase, which we were led to believe contained a remote detonation device that 'could flatten an entire building', just another artifice in this carefully constructed story?
http://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch/transcripts/s3023099.htm

This story was picked up by our lovely local houses and ran almost everyday, putting additional blame on the security arrangements. BUT In the end This Aussie report was completely a hoax and *disproved* by another aussie network, and what did our media do? quietly buried the story and didn't even report that the whole story was a hoax to begin with!

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## Aero

@PARIKRAMA
So,It means the data leaked is General to All Previous Scorpene-Class Submarines.The extent of modification done for Indian variant will differentiate form standard Scorpene Submarine.
Also. as you mentioned the manuals in leak contained Indian navy insignia was leaked before ordering of components was Indian Navy then

It may be made for indian navy as most of operational procedure remained in line with previous variants/class standard so didn't require that much changes.
Documents are forged with indian Navy insignia to gain more Media attention and is part of Economic Warfare against DCNS for Collins Class Replacement.
What you think?

*>>*Do you really believe in all 22000+ pages of Docs contains information only about Manuals and other standard characteristics..
Well if all data is leaked (Single breach) in 2011 then we should assume that damage to our interests will be minimal?

Other Analysis explaining extent of damage,You will find amusing
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...n-scorpene-data-leak/articleshow/53850856.cms

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## The SC

PARIKRAMA said:


> Enjoy the next part
> 
> *It’s in the mail: how submarine secrets surfaced in Australia*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Secrets surfaced
> 
> 
> The Australian
> 12:00AM August 27, 2016
> *CAMERON STEWART*
> 
> 
> 
> Associate Editor
> Melbourne
> @camstewarttheoz
> *In late April 2013 a Sydney postman reached into his satchel and pulled out a small envelope containing the secrets of India’s new submarine fleet.*
> 
> *He dropped the letter, with a Singapore stamp on it, in a private post office box and moved on.*
> 
> *The envelope, containing a small data disc, remained there for days, along with a Telstra bill and junk mail, before being picked up on April 24, 2013, by a man who took it home and pushed the disk into his computer.*
> 
> *This week the contents of that disk have become front-page news in Australia, India and France as each country grapples with the ramifications of an Edward Snowden-style leak of confidential documents disclosing the entire secret combat capability of India’s new Scorpene-class submarine fleet.*
> 
> The leak is of more than passing interest to Australia because the documents come from the same French shipbuilder, DCNS, that will design 12 submarines for the Royal Australian Navy in the country’s largest and most expensive defence project.
> 
> *But it is of far greater urgency to India, which fears that if a foreign spy service has acquired the data its six Scorpene submarines, costing a total of $US3 billion ($3.93bn), could be dead in the water before they sail. France is also in damage control as it tries to understand and explain how 22,400 of its secret documents on India’s submarines crossed the world to be delivered by a Sydney postie.*
> 
> *None of these three countries was aware of the leak until this week, when The Australian asked DCNS Australia on Monday afternoon to comment on an astonishing data file it had seen, marked “Restricted Scorpene India”, which laid bare almost every secret capability of India’s new submarines. These included the contracted parameters and capabilities of the submarine’s stealth features, its noise signatures at different speeds, its range, endurance, diving depths, magnetic and infra-red data. In other words, the full suite of submarine capability spread over 22,400 documents that any navy would consider to be classified and highly sensitive.*
> 
> *The news set off a remarkable chain of events, which says much about the high stakes involved for each country. On receiving questions about the leak from The Australian on Monday, the Canberra office of France’s DCNS immediately deferred to its head office in Paris.
> 
> The ramifications of a news story revealing the mega-data dump on such a sensitive project were immediately obvious. India would be furious, but so too would Malaysia, Chile and Brazil, which also have, or will soon have, DCNS Scorpene submarines. And Australia was also likely to be concerned about the security of its own new partnership with the French defence giant.
> 
> DCNS officials in Paris urgently checked their files, looking for signs of espionage.*
> 
> *On Tuesday morning, DCNS officials in Paris came back to their Canberra DCNS colleagues with the news that they could find no immediate evidence of a security breach that would explain such a massive data leak.
> 
> The DCNS team in Canberra met to workshop the problem. It was a sobering moment for them. The tight-knit group led by Sean Costello, former chief of staff to former defence minister David Johnston, were considered heroes by DCNS in Paris for pulling off an unlikely victory against the more heavily favoured Germans and Japanese to win the lucrative contract to design Australia’s future submarines. The leak was not their fault, but they would be saddled with its legacy, which would be that their commercial rivals would exploit every opportunity to say the French can never be trusted with Australia’s secrets.
> 
> The group reasoned that the most likely scenario was that a commercial competitor was seeking to sabotage the company and had somehow obtained and then leaked the data. The obvious suspects were the losers in the submarine bid, Germany and Japan, but why would they wait for four months after the decision to strike?*
> 
> If the leak was a global attack on DCNS then Norway, rather than Australia, would have been the obvious place to strike given that DCNS is now trying to pitch its Scorpene submarine to the Norwegian Navy, whereas the Australian deal was already stitched up.
> 
> DCNS had no answers and so it was assumed the most likely source of the leak was from the Indian side. The company wrote a carefully worded statement that implied — but did not state — that the leak came from India.
> 
> *By late Tuesday afternoon DCNS realised it had to tell the Australian government that some very bad news was to be published the next day. The company called the head of Defence’s Future Submarine Project, Rear Admiral Greg Sammut, who then called Defence Department secretary Dennis Richardson. Defence Industry Minister Christopher Pyne was also briefed.*
> 
> *In New Delhi, India’s Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar was asleep when an aide woke him at midnight and showed him the report on The Australian’s website.*
> 
> For Parrikar the news was devastating. He had a strong personal investment in India’s Scorpene submarines. Just over a year earlier, on April 6, 2015, he had watched the “undocking” ceremony in Mumbai as the first of India’s six Scorpene submarines, Kalvari, meaning Tiger Shark, was celebrated. The new submarine, decked in garlands and Indian flags, represented the pinnacle of the Indian Navy. A prayer ceremony was held to bless the boat.
> 
> The Scorpenes were a badly needed replacement for India’s ageing fleet of Russian Kilo-class and German Type 209 submarines that were almost three decades old and often confined to port with technical problems.
> 
> The DCNS Scorpene, however, was ordered in 2005 to spearhead India’s submarine fleet because, it boasted, in the words of the _Indian Express_: “Stealth features (which) give it invulnerability, unmatched by many submarines.”
> 
> But as Parrikar woke, the invulnerability of his pet project was in doubt. He ordered his chief of navy to launch an urgent investigation into the leak and what damage it had potentially caused.
> 
> At 6.30am in Australia, Pyne had read _The Australian’s_ report and was soon on the phone to Richardson to discuss how to respond.
> 
> *Sources say Richardson was of the view that Australia’s own security arrangements surrounding the new submarine project were already robust and there was no need to reinvent the wheel on security just because of the leak.*
> 
> *Pyne agreed, but also wanted to give a gentle message to the French. He asked Richardson to convey “a reminder” to DCNS that Australia expects the security of classified information on the future submarine project to be as tight as Australia’s handling of security information with its closest ally, the US. The subtext was, this is serious, don’t let this happen again.*
> 
> *But Pyne also knew the story would run strongly in Australia unless he tried to kill it quickly, so at about 8.30am he issued a press release claiming — without having access to the 22,400 leaked documents — that Defence had advised that the leak would have “no bearing” on Australia’s submarine program.*
> 
> It was a public statement at odds with his private instruction to Richardson, but in Pyne’s view the quicker he could wash Australia’s hands of what he knew would be a nasty international furore the better.
> 
> *India woke on Wednesday to the report that its submarine fleet had been potentially compromised by the leak of thousands of secret documents. Within hours it was the biggest story in the country. Under pressure to provide a quick answer, Parrikar said the leak appeared to be a case of hacking but he offered nothing to support this theory, which he later backed away from.
> 
> In Paris, DCNS realised it had a public relations and security disaster on its hands, with the story being reported on the front page of the newspaper Le Monde, followed the next day by a front-page cartoon lampooning the French security services.
> 
> DCNS backed away from the claim that India had caused the leak and the French government stepped in to announce that its defence security officials would investigate.
> 
> The Indian government also announced an investigation, but with every major Indian newspaper reporting the story on its front page, the government urged patience until its navy could assess the leak and the damage caused.*
> 
> But it seems that the story behind this leak may be more incompetence than espionage — more Austin Powers than James Bond._ The Weekend Australian _has been told by sources that the data was removed from DCNS in Paris in 2011 by a former French Navy officer who quit the service in the early 1970s and worked for French defence companies for more than 30 years before becoming a subcontractor to DCNS.
> 
> Sources say they believe this subcontractor somehow copied the sensitive data from DCNS in France and, along with a French colleague, took it to a Southeast Asian country. If so, he broke the law and may face prosecution.
> 
> The two men worked in that Southeast Asian country carrying out unclassified naval defence work.
> 
> The speculation is that the data on the Scorpene was removed to serve as a reference guide for the former naval officer’s new job, but it is unclear why anyone would risk breaking the law by taking classified data for such a purpose.
> 
> The two men are then said to have the fallen out with their employer, a private company run by a Western businessman. They were sacked and refused re-entry to their building. At least one of the men asked to retrieve the data on the Scorpene but they were refused and the company — possibly not knowing the significance of the data — held on to it.
> 
> The secret data was then sent to the company’s head office in Singapore, where the company’s IT chief — again probably not knowing its significance — tried to load it on an internet server for the person in Sydney who was slated to replace the two sacked French workers.
> 
> The data was placed on a server on April 18, 2013, and it was then that it was dangerously vulnerable to hacking or interception by a foreign intelligence service. It is not known whether the data stayed on this server for a few days or for a year. It is not known if any foreign intelligence service obtained it during this time.
> 
> Unable to send such a large file over the net and not knowing the significance of the data, the Singapore company sent it on a data disk by regular post to Sydney.
> 
> When the recipient, who was experienced in defence issues, opened the file on his home computer he was stunned. He was expecting to read notes on a low-level naval program, but before him lay the secret capabilities of the new Indian submarine fleet.
> 
> The data was not encrypted so he transferred it to an encrypted disk. That evening the man wiped the old disk with special software, grabbed a hammer and smashed it to pieces in his backyard.
> 
> He placed the new encrypted disk in a locked filing cabinet in his office and there it remained for more than two years.
> 
> In the back room of Cafe Loco, in the Melbourne suburb of Elsternwick, the man arrives, sits down and pulls out a data disk from his pocket. He orders a hamburger then slips the disk into his laptop. He says he has something to show me, but not give to me.
> 
> Why are you doing this I ask?
> 
> He replies: “In the wake of the recent future submarine decision (in Australia) this matter went from one of a very serious breach for both France and India to a matter of national security significance to Australia and the US.”
> 
> In other words, he wants Australia to know that its future submarine partner, France, has already lost control of secret data on India’s new submarines. His hope is that this will spur the Turnbull government and DCNS to step up security to ensure Australia’s $50 billion submarine project does not suffer the same fate.
> 
> He says he is a whistleblower and maintains that revealing to the world, via _The Australian, _that this classified data exists in a dangerously uncontrolled form is worthwhile because it will serve Australia’s interests even if it causes an international furore.
> 
> He presses a button on his computer and his screen flickers to life.
> 
> Here in a Melbourne cafe, amid the clatter of plates, laughter and the smell of coffee, he scrolls through the secrets of India’s submarine fleet. He has not broken any laws and the authorities know who he is. He plans to surrender the disk to the government on Monday.
> 
> Source:http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...bb358581cf27819acfb+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=in


Nice article, almost copied from some Ian fleming spy novel...
The dot connections are very dubious; why in all of the world it had to end up in Australia who just happened to be on the point of sealing its own contract with DCNS? and this timing!?
The article says clearly that the most beneficiary of the leak is the Australian security apparatus with The US one to some extent..
Maybe there is a message behind it for India especially concerning the hegemony in the Indian Ocean.. Stealth is a big concern in these matters, and the Aussies won't be in favor of anyone spying on them without detection, They "prefer" instead to spy on others without being detected.. maybe and just maybe, that is why they are getting stealth french subs from France too with main components from the US..
IMHO the Scorpene Subs must be very efficient and very special to get all this attention at a crucial moment for many countries trying to procure them..DCNS won't suffer much from this , since Australia just asked it to strengthen its security concerning the Aussie deal..India on the other hand has to accept the facts at least for the subs under construction.. and maybe France will lose a few billion dollars in other deals with India, but they don't come anywhere close to the 38 billion US$ of the Aussie Submarine deal plus and I repeat plus the ToT to France from the US most sophisticated submarine systems..So as much as India longs for ToT France also longs for some tech that is better than its own or that will give it an advantage in building its future Submarines..

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## Aero

The SC said:


> Nice article, almost copied from some Ian fleming spy novel..


Article is published on The Australian today
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...a/news-story/38f8f0c1d78fcbb358581cf27819acfb

Use Google Cache as @PARIKRAMA already mentioned.

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## idune

humm, question is how royally india get screwed? And what is indian response to mitigate perceived risk? Besides, india claim to be supa powa, do you need DCN to build sub?


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## jhungary

hellfire said:


> Oh, if it is an Indian source, the gentle(wo)man has been taken in for a 'debrief'. Our counter intelligence is pretty good, usually.



it may have been one in a million things, from a deliberate leak to some disgruntle employee or even foreign espionage, I am not familiar with Indian Intelligence, so I cannot say for sure what it is or how the Indian or French or whoever trying to be deal with the aftermath.

I am just saying leak on any level is a common occurrence, even if you are talking about organisation like CIA/NSA, you don't need to go far, just see how Snowden turns head with NSA?

I am not saying this is not serious, but I think you guys have inflated the seriousness in this situation

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## Nilgiri

jhungary said:


> but I think you guys have inflated the seriousness in this situation



Its the Indian media and defence sector. What were you expecting

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## Indrajit

R!CK said:


> Just a curious question, going by your logic. If someone takes your nude pic and another guy publish it on the newspaper. You will thank the newspaper guy for letting you and everyone know that your picture was taken? Don't take me wrong, just confused by your logic.
> 
> Good Day to you!



Good point, which is why I used the term *"only" *in reference to the point being raised.


> _........and promptly deciding to focus all his ire *only* on the publisher ...._


I agree that a certain level of irritation would be directed at the publisher but the person trusted _(continuing your analogy, maybe the partner)_ who leaked it would be the primary target of anger. The publisher is responsible for the embarrassment suffered but it is someone else who is the cause.



hellfire said:


> I know of a certain operation which never took place officially. Can I go and shout out without being booked under Official Secrets Act of 1923 as amended time to time?.



Only if you are the citizen of the country in question & even then only if you were entrusted with and mishandled classified information.

Newspaper & media outlets do make such calls when it comes to their own country but few are prosecutable cases. Secrets of other countries do not apply and cannot be protected under the act you mention or similar.



> Also, being a friendly power, Australia will have to investigate the matter and inform accordingly. None of my concern if they impale him, I need my assets secured. That is all



Friendly power or not, Australia cannot touch him on legal grounds. Simply a no-go area.


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## Hellfire

jhungary said:


> it may have been one in a million things, from a deliberate leak to some disgruntle employee or even foreign espionage, *I am not familiar with Indian Intelligence, *so I cannot say for sure what it is or how the Indian or French or whoever trying to be deal with the aftermath.



That is why my previous speculative post, I am aware.



jhungary said:


> I am just saying leak on any level is a common occurrence, even if you are talking about organisation like CIA/NSA, you don't need to go far, just see how Snowden turns head with NSA?



Totally, agreed. Trying to make sceptics understand the thing. And basically, wasting bandwidth and time.



jhungary said:


> I am not saying this is not serious, but I think you guys have inflated the seriousness in this situation



Totally agreed. Much ado about nothing here. That is what @PARIKRAMA is posting about. We agree there is very less likelihood of anything cirtical becoming public.

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## dadeechi

hellfire said:


> That is why my previous speculative post, I am aware.
> 
> 
> 
> Totally, agreed. Trying to make sceptics understand the thing. And basically, wasting bandwidth and time.
> 
> 
> 
> Totally agreed. Much ado about nothing here. That is what @PARIKRAMA is posting about. We agree there is very less likelihood of anything cirtical becoming public.



Whatever may be the truth, BJP government would be accused of a cover-up.

If the incumbent GoI is smart they would cancel the program and go for a new platform.

Luckily not many of these have been built.

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## Hellfire

dadeechi said:


> If the incumbent GoI is smart they would cancel the program and go for a new platform.











idune said:


> humm, question is how royally india get screwed? And what is indian response to mitigate perceived risk? Besides, india claim to be supa powa, do you need DCN to build sub?

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## ashok321

Scorpene data leak: Australian government warns French shipbuilder DCNS
90 percent of Scorpene leak commercially available information: Government
Scorpene leak: Strategic ties with France strong but sharing probe information is key

*Scorpene whistleblower to submit all data to Australian government:*

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## Indrajit

The key grouse here must be about DCNS not informing GoI about the leak/theft in 2011 Since there had just been extensive discussions on price escalation just before that, maybe DCNS were worried that Antony might just decide to cancel the whole project if the matter of the leak had been known. Be that as it may, this matter is now exposed & DCNS must be made to make good for the resultant headache.



dadeechi said:


> Whatever may be the truth, BJP government would be accused of a cover-up.



That risk exists but it is not a major one since no internal corruption is made out.



> If the incumbent GoI is smart they would cancel the program and go for a new platform.



Much as i dislike DCNS's attitude, I'm not sure that this a sensible way to go about things. Far better to squeeze something more from them.

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## cloud_9

37 pages of excuses!


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## ashok321

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/769407015370260481

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## Hellfire

@PARIKRAMA 

I feel @ashok321 is heading @kahonapyarhai way. Only posting, dont you think that?

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## Robinhood Pandey

hellfire said:


> @PARIKRAMA
> 
> I feel @ashok321 is heading @kahonapyarhai way. Only posting, dont you think that?



@ashok321 aka @mehboobkz aka @Anees is famous for spamming threads

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## Nilgiri

hellfire said:


> @PARIKRAMA
> 
> I feel @ashok321 is heading @kahonapyarhai way. Only posting, dont you think that?



Heading? He is at that stage a long time back.

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## Hellfire

Robinhood Pandey said:


> @ashok321 aka @mehboobkz aka @Anees is famous for spamming threads



The Int brief by our very own CID chief. You tag well

Thanks

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## Nilgiri

hellfire said:


> The Int brief by our very own CID chief. You tag well
> 
> Thanks



Pandey sure knows the deep web of PDF personas hehe...better than anyone else I think....maybe @Roybot gives him run for money.

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## Aero

dadeechi said:


> If the incumbent GoI is smart they would cancel the program and go for a new platform.


Cancelling now will be a bad idea.
One is in Sea Trial (INS Kalvari) & other is ready for launch (INS Khanderi), Two are under construction (S52 & S53) that make Four out of Six. If we cancel now maintaining 2 submarine that are ready will be less economical . Our own shipyards will lose business . A lot of factors here if GoI cancels this deal.

Conventional submarines of India be it Kilo or 209 are over 3 Decades old (Not like this), so our Navy needs New Subs if cancelled new selection will take time then Red Tapism of India you Know we are talking about 10-15 more years.
We cannot actually say anything until we see all Docs ourselves but as leak happened in 2011 it is unlikely a lot of things for Indian variant are compromised as they were being manufactured at that time so How come manuals are there before Sub is done building? 
It may there due to being similar to other scorpene class subs malaysia ,chile navy operate or may be forged to get Media Attention?

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## Shankranthi

PARIKRAMA said:


> Continuing from earlier post quoted above
> 
> *Source based information - part 2*
> Some More information from a very senior Indian Navy official who is briefing IN Chief on continuous basis based on hourly analysis of the data leaked..
> 
> Classification of information leaked is non catastrophic.
> Most important things which are not compromised includes Radiated Noise Pattern or Acoustic Signature
> The acoustic signature is recorded and added to own library only after
> extensive sea trials
> after performing successfully radiated noise spectrum analysis under different standard conditions
> 
> Minor changes which occurs in every operation to operation includes Sonar Frequency and ELF LF Communication frequency both are not compromised.
> He has confirmed no tactical advantage is lost on any encounter on sea condition to IN chief and the same is briefed to DM MP
> @Vergennes at @MilSpec @Abingdonboy @Spectre @anant_s @Nilgiri @anant_s @hellfire @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @randomradio @Shankranthi @others
> 
> tagging you to sven @Olaf One-Brow - you can give better insights on this..



What else do you expect the MoD or Naval chief to say ?

That 3.6 billion $ is down the drain ? or that "All is Well" ?

Pretty much every "public" noise from the IN and MoD will attempt to down play this and restore public confidence.

One has to be pretty Naive to believe that the GoI will EVER reveal to the public about how damaging this whole leak is. Their job is to Lie to the public and in private take serious steps to recover from the damage.

So let the chowkidar shout "All is Well" and let the naive public go back to their slumber.

just replace Amir Khan with MoD

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## NKVD

Shankranthi said:


> What else do you expect the MoD or Naval chief to say ?
> 
> That 3.6 billion $ is down the drain ? or that "All is Well" ?
> 
> Pretty much every "public" noise from the IN and MoD will attempt to down play this and restore public confidence.
> 
> One has to be pretty Naive to believe that the GoI will EVER reveal to the public about damaging this whole leak is. Their job is toe Lie to the public and in private take serious steps to recover from the damage.
> 
> So let the chowkidar shout "All is Well" and let the naive public go back to their slumber.
> 
> just replace Amir Khan with MoD



What we expect from chump like who is utter waste in life 

Any Navy official word is more than worth than waste like you 
Do something useful in life except 
Criticisms

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## PARIKRAMA



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## Shankranthi

PARIKRAMA said:


> View attachment 329380



isn't it strange that they are NOW doing a "detailed assessment" AFTER publicly declaring that nothing important has been revealed ?

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## Indrajit

Shankranthi said:


> What else do you expect the MoD or Naval chief to say ?
> 
> That 3.6 billion $ is down the drain ? or that "All is Well" ?
> 
> Pretty much every "public" noise from the IN and MoD will attempt to down play this and restore public confidence.
> 
> One has to be pretty Naive to believe that the GoI will EVER reveal to the public about how damaging this whole leak is. Their job is to Lie to the public and in private take serious steps to recover from the damage.



That's pretty much what I have been saying....spin is what we can expect now & that indeed is what should be expected if GoI has any sense. Not many takers for that line here........

My point was the same as yours, that we are not going to really know the extent of the damage...because it will never be made public and that we really should assume the worst.

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## Shankranthi

Indrajit said:


> That's pretty much what I have been saying....spin is what we can expect now & that indeed is what should be expected if GoI has any sense. Not many takers for that line here........
> 
> My point was the same as yours, that we are not going to really know the extent of the damage...because it will never be made public and that we really should assume the worst.



That should have been obvious to anyone with an iota of common sense. But like they say, common sense is not so common.

But there is no need to 'assume' anything. MoD needs to do their job and investigate this. IN needs to take steps to mitigate the risks revealed by this leak.

GoI needs to demand *Significant Compensation *from DCNS / France depending on where the Liability lies.

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## NKVD

Indrajit said:


> That's pretty much what I have been saying....spin is what we can expect now & that indeed is what should be expected if GoI has any sense. Not many takers for that line here........
> 
> My point was the same as yours, that we are not going to really know the extent of the damage...because it will never be made public and that we really should assume the worst.



Army should never declare any thing to Public 

Specially Indian one which very are still very amateurs and illiterate to analyse such complex matter of national security 

Example is guy above

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## NKVD

Shankranthi said:


> There ...there .....kid. Don't worry ........ "All is well"
> 
> Here you go,



Ohh chump 

Go do dharna at naval station MDL 

Not so bitch crying on PDF
Only waste few minutes of your life


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## PARIKRAMA

Beyond the orgasms which folks seems to get , if only they could really go after the data and read everything






https://defence.pk/threads/sensitiv...submarines-leaked.445677/page-15#post-8608861

If only people could understand how in India parliament is answered not without a clear report from Indian Navy saying the same and such a statement is recorded ..

Enjoy the whole spin and keep saying we should fear and also there is much more.. may be ask them also how a Chile scorpene data is so threatening.. anyways that point will be ignored bcz that does not follow the iteration and concern raised by folks.. right is nt it?

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## Shankranthi

Its unlikely any Indian gets an orgasm seeing our military secrete out in the open. its funny that one should think so and have so little faith in the Indian public.

That said, relevant details will be provided to the standing committee on defence and not on the floor of the parliament.

What's surprising is to see is a whole bunch of Indians trying to support DCNS and trying to downplay this horrendous leak. Is anybody under the impression that DCNS is doing charity ?


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## dadeechi

Indrajit said:


> That risk exists but it is not a major one since no internal corruption is made out.



This leak took place in 2011 when BJP was not in power but yet it did not prevent Congress from taking the offensive line.

Manish has already been giving news conferences and on talk shows accusing the government.


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## Shankranthi

dadeechi said:


> This leak took place in 2011 when BJP was not in power but yet it did not prevent Congress from taking the offensive line.
> 
> Manish has already been giving news conferences and on talk shows accusing the government.



The good thing is that the congress does not have any credibility left for people to take them seriously.

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## dadeechi

Shankranthi said:


> isn't it strange that they are NOW doing a "detailed assessment" AFTER publicly declaring that nothing important has been revealed ?



What is frightening is that one of our so called defense expert says on TV that fortunately the sensitive info on the leaked documents was blacked out. If this intelligence of the people conducting the investigation, God save India.



Shankranthi said:


> The good thing is that the congress does not have any credibility left for people to take them seriously.



And they would make full use of this issue to regain that trust.


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## Shankranthi

dadeechi said:


> What is frightening is that one of our so called defense expert says on TV that fortunately the sensitive info on the leaked documents was blacked out. If this intelligence of the people conducting the investigation, God save India.



LOL...... one can only hope that the statement was made for the not so bright public of India.



dadeechi said:


> And they would make full use of this issue to regain that trust.



They would surely try, but I don't think it would sell since the leak is clearly from France. The real impact will be in the future when MoD takes decision to extend the scorpene line or shut it down.

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## dadeechi

Aero said:


> Cancelling now will be a bad idea.
> One is in Sea Trial (INS Kalvari) & other is ready for launch (INS Khanderi), Two are under construction (S52 & S53) that make Four out of Six. If we cancel now maintaining 2 submarine that are ready will be less economical . Our own shipyards will lose business . A lot of factors here if GoI cancels this deal.
> 
> Conventional submarines of India be it Kilo or 209 are over 3 Decades old (Not like this), so our Navy needs New Subs if cancelled new selection will take time then Red Tapism of India you Know we are talking about 10-15 more years.
> We cannot actually say anything until we see all Docs ourselves but as leak happened in 2011 it is unlikely a lot of things for Indian variant are compromised as they were being manufactured at that time so How come manuals are there before Sub is done building?
> It may there due to being similar to other scorpene class subs malaysia ,chile navy operate or may be forged to get Media Attention?




I totally understand what you are saying but remember what is Unknown is Unknown.

It is always easier to have a mitigating plan for a know risk than an unknown risk.

And you can only implement any mitigating with full cooperating of the OEM which is lacking in this case.

All mitigating plans have to be implemented by GoI on its own.

DCNS has already thrown India under the bus by claiming & indicating the leak happed from Indian end. The documents have India logos.

By being defensive, GoI is going to give more ammunition to the OEM.



Shankranthi said:


> They would surely try, but I don't think it would sell since the leak is clearly from France. The real impact will be in the future when MoD takes decision to extend the scorpene line or shut it down.



DCNS would never claim responsibility. They have already gone on offensive saying their systems are secure and in case of Indian it was subcontracted. They are already washing away their hands.



R!CK said:


> Just a curious question, going by your logic. If someone takes your nude pic and another guy publish it on the newspaper. You will thank the newspaper guy for letting you and everyone know that your picture was taken? Don't take me wrong, just confused by your logic.
> 
> Good Day to you!



You may not thank the reporter but at least you would realize why people around you were laughing all along while you were clueless.


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## Shankranthi

dadeechi said:


> ....
> By being defensive, GoI is going to give more ammunition to the OEM.



The priority for GoI is to restore public confidence and regain control of the psys ops and propaganda war. GoI has ammunition ONLY if they can PROVE that the leak is from france. Then it will all depend on what the liability clause on the Contract would say. 

Posture either way will have no impact on GoI dealing with DCNS. 



> DCNS would never claim responsibility. They have already gone on offensive saying their systems are secure and in case of Indian it was subcontracted. They are already washing away their hands.



Nor should they. Always claim to be innocent until PROVEN guilty. That is the way the legal system works.


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## dadeechi

GuardianRED said:


> So what is the Alternative? Start Crying and throw a Hissile Fit , Cancel all deals? Sink the one Sub we have? Tell AUS to cancel the deal with DCNS? Run around and pull out our hairs? Send gifts and present and award the Reporter for doing his Job ?? Ask the IN chief and DM Parrikar to resign and beg for mercy from the citizen of India ? oh wait Call the IN Intelligence he too should resign !
> Get more people to check if there is more leaks and if YES , start all over again with Crying and throw a Hissile Fit and Cancel all deals? Wow that sound FUN!!!! Lets do that!



It is very obvious that the leak is from the friendly camp.

US, Germany, UK, Australia and Japan are a close knit family and French barging into that relationship would not be taken kindly.

Hence the only option is to replace Scorpene program with Barracuda class if DCNS is willing else look for Russian options.

India should shut the doors on German & Japanese options.



Shankranthi said:


> The priority for GoI is to restore public confidence and regain control of the psys ops and propaganda war. GoI has ammunition ONLY if they can PROVE that the leak is from france. Then it will all depend on what the liability clause on the Contract would say.



By being defensive GoI would end up accepting the guilt.



Shankranthi said:


> Nor should they. Always claim to be innocent until PROVEN guilty. That is the way the legal system works



If only the other party cared. They could have just said that Investigations are progress rather than pointing the finger at India.


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## GuardianRED

dadeechi said:


> It is very obvious that the leak is from the friendly camp.
> 
> US, Germany, UK, Australia and Japan are a close knit family and French barging into that relationship would not be taken kindly.
> 
> Hence the only option is to replace Scorpene program with Barracuda class if DCNS is willing else look for Russian options.
> 
> India should shut the doors on German & Japan options.
> 
> 
> 
> By being defensive GoI would end up accepting the guilt.
> 
> 
> 
> If only the other party cared. They could have just said that Investigations are progress rather than pointing the finger at India.


Find you reply ALOT 

Out of lazy curiously - Why should shut doors on German and Japan options

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## dadeechi

Shankranthi said:


> GoI has ammunition ONLY if they can PROVE that the leak is from france.



Why would either French or India leak such info. It is very obvious that the leak is from the 3rd party.



GuardianRED said:


> Out of lazy curiously - Why should shut doors on German and Japan options



As the leak is most likely from one of those camps.


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## Hellfire

There, we are in trouble

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## PARIKRAMA

hellfire said:


> There, we are in trouble




Now now, we should express better

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## Ankit Kumar 002

GuardianRED said:


> Find you reply ALOT
> 
> Out of lazy curiously - Why should shut doors on German and Japan options



Maybe some problems with German girls and Japanese cuisines ?

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## dadeechi

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> Maybe some problems with German girls and Japanese cuisines ?



Not girls only cuisines...

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## Shankranthi

dadeechi said:


> By being defensive GoI would end up accepting the guilt.



Such things don't mean anything in the real world, especially in geo politics and business. The world is full of such "guilty" forces (from MNC's to Nations) plundering the world and they sit in judgement on others. 



> If only the other party cared. They could have just said that Investigations are progress rather than pointing the finger at India.



Pointing the finger at somebody else is the most common tactics in Criminal Defence strategy. DCNS public posturing would be to point fingers at India, IN, "foreign hand", "conspiracy", competition, etc. etc. 

In private they will demand for proof when challenged and take a hard stand. 

Between these two lies negotiations.

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## A_Poster

hellfire said:


> @PARIKRAMA
> 
> I feel @ashok321 is heading @kahonapyarhai way. Only posting, dont you think that?





Robinhood Pandey said:


> @ashok321 aka @mehboobkz aka @Anees is famous for spamming threads




Probably they all are same guys?


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## dadeechi

Shankranthi said:


> Such things don't mean anything in the real world, especially in geo politics and business. The world is full of such "guilty" forces (from MNC's to Nations) plundering the world and they sit in judgement on others.
> 
> 
> 
> Pointing the finger at somebody else is the most common tactics in Criminal Defence strategy. DCNS public posturing would be to point fingers at India, IN, "foreign hand", "conspiracy", competition, etc. etc.
> 
> In private they will demand for proof when challenged and take a hard stand.
> 
> Between these two lies negotiations.



You can only negotiate if you have some chips with you.

India just being a spectator to French acquisitions would not at all help at the negotiation table.


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## dadeechi

Shankranthi said:


> Yup. That is why DCNS was quick to point the finger at India when questioned in Australia about the leak.
> 
> That is why DCNS did not even bother to inform MoD, IN or GoI about the leak even after they had come to know of it.
> 
> DCNS has already decided to play hard ball.
> 
> The ball is clearly in the MoD's court and considering how the Italian Marine were released for getting India into MTCR, How India had for years Negotiated with Terrorists and their sponsors, How Russia was able to screw India over during the purchase of Vikramaditya, How we have put a moratorium on nuclear testing, or how Russian culprit of the purulia arms dropping was released on the insistence of Russia, GoI has over the years already demonstrated to the world our Weakness and lack of resolve in standing up for Indians.
> 
> All this while Indians continued to cheer for the govt. of the day and whitewash every one of these action. (see the same thing happen in pdf ?)
> 
> Strength begins at Resolve.
> 
> The last time India showed resolve was when Vajpayee tested our Nukes (immediately followed by self imposed moratorium) that showed weakness. Before that the Bangladesh war by IG.
> 
> You Negotiated from Strength, not weakness. When we cannot even negotiate with puny pakistan, I would not bother to aim too high with our Negotiation skills.
> 
> The best we can do is "haggle" in the name of "negotiations"............ followed by cheering Indians admiring our "skills" in negotiations. Its pathetic and its funny. Makes you wonder whether to laugh or cry.



Excellent post. Fully agree.

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## Aero

dadeechi said:


> I totally understand what you are saying but remember what is Unknown is Unknown.


But We can Agree on that data leaked in 2011 or before will be Standard for entire Scorpene class not just Indian variant.
Unless we see all data for ourselves we can't be sure of anything but manuals can be thousands of pages, so may be just that or may be not.



dadeechi said:


> It is always easier to have a mitigating plan for a know risk than an unknown risk.


I think people involved in our country 's security related decision making knows it well, they may be forming one .



dadeechi said:


> And you can only implement any mitigating with full cooperating of the OEM which is lacking in this case.


If need be DCNS will most likely come to terms.



dadeechi said:


> All mitigating plans have to be implemented by GoI on its own.


May be they are already on it.


dadeechi said:


> DCNS has already thrown India under the bus by claiming & indicating the leak happened from Indian end. The documents have India logos.


Nope they backed down from that statement later. (Go check link given below)



dadeechi said:


> By being defensive, GoI is going to give more ammunition to the OEM.


Lets wait & see.



dadeechi said:


> DCNS would never claim responsibility. They have already gone on offensive saying their systems are secure and in case of Indian it was subcontracted. They are already washing away their hands.


Again , see the link

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...a/news-story/38f8f0c1d78fcbb358581cf27819acfb

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## PARIKRAMA

Anyone noticed that in last 24 hours much of the noise mellowed down.. especially after the weekend relase of the news report and how the data was stolen and reached the news reporter..
Like our media suddenly is trying to keep a distance from it..
On top even if folks are trying to rake it up, the support seems to be weakening.

For everyone - 
Do check out Chilean Navy Scorpenes.. You might be happy knowing the source of plain vanilla specs in those manuals.

As i said in earlier posts showed that Indian Submarine hull was under preparation in 2011 and that was the time all components order were placed which started fitting in 2012 onwards, it was practically impossible to have a manual for the first submarine when we dont even know which system and version would finally go into the Kalavari. 

It will finally boil down to Chilean Navy Scorpene Manuals base version for Indian Navy (sample manual model) to build on and make their own for operational purposes.

Then will come to the million dollar question part- 
Will Chilean navy share the specs with India out in a manual unless its a general purpose manual and does not in any manner compromise the Chilean Scorpenes? 
My logic says they will never compromise just like any other Navy in the world.

Yes a more through probe must be done to take on DCNS and see what and how we can get some more benefits out of the situation and also seek reassurances that such security breaches are avoided in future... Also to double check all the 22k pages dont reveal any more new bunnies..

My gut feeling says talk with DGA and ensure we extract some indirect compensation by the way of greater access to the overall tech sharing with us at no cost.

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## monitor

*3 Reasons Why #ScorpeneLeak Is A BIG Worry*
Shiv Aroor Aug 25 2016 2 23 pm






Over the last 36 hours since the Scorpene Leak scandal broke, plenty has been said about the nature of the leak and its potential impact on Indian submarine operations and deployments. The Indian Navy has set up a top-level inquiry team to investigate the leak. India has also unequivocally put the onus on France, officially declaring that the leak for was from ‘foreign source’. In the mean time, government officials have sought to play down the impact of the leak, both officially and otherwise. Among the things being said: the leaked documents are technical manuals, are outdated, don’t constitute sensitive information and don’t pertain to India’s Scorpenes alone. An MoD official has also been quoted as saying there is no cause for worry. Handling an explosive situation where the Indian government has clearly been blindsided by the leak is one thing. But to brush the leak aside and recognise it for anything other than a devastating breach is to ensure that it happens again. Here now is a list of three reasons why the Scorpene Leak scandal is the most serious non-conflict cause for worry the Indian military has faced in a long time.


_The fact that officially controlled/restricted documents of any kind pertaining to strategic platforms have found their way into the public domain itself is the principal cause for alarm. Documentation and literature running into many thousands of pages are restricted for several reasons — tactical, strategic, economic and commercial. A leak establishes that the system on the Scorpene programme has holes. Period. That hole is now the centerpiece of two separate investigations in India and France. That hole has no place in a $3 billion transaction that was underscored by an integrity pact. That hole has no place in an enormously complex programme that looks to shore up critical force levels in one of India’s most crucial combat arms._
_Indian Navy submariners (both serving and retired) are unanimously alarmed. A serving Lieutenant Commander I spoke to, currently deployed on a Kilo-class boat, said, “We’ve seen some of the pages that are out there. But we don’t know what else is out there. Until we know, we have to assume the worst. That’s how the submarine service works.” Nothing truer. The Indian Navy itself, in its official statement today, perplexingly pointed to the redacted documents published by The Australian, as if the Australian newspaper/website is the source of the leak. The truth is, at this stage, the Indian Navy and government aren’t fully clear about what’s been leaked. It’s a metaphor that reflects submarine operations perfectly: what isn’t known could sink you._
_But there’s something much more fundamental about the leak that isn’t being recognised as much as it probably should. A second submariner I spoke to illustrated the point in the gritty way submariners do. He provided me with the following scenario: “Imagine you’re sent into a large hall full of silent people and ordered to track down a particular person. You don’t know their name, what they look like, what they sound like. Now imagine being sent into that same room with a photograph of the person, a voice sample. How much sooner would you find the person?” He admits that’s a simplistic example, but he says it conveys a very fundamental message about submarine operations. In a world of darkness and silence, the smallest glimmer of light or sound is actionable data, information that helps decisions, speeds up processes, helps evasion and tracking. 22,000 pages that reportedly cover everything from the Scorpene’s vulnerabilities to its frequencies to its acoustic profiles sounds like a “nightmare” in the submariner’s words. I asked him to list the possible nature of data compromised in the leak. His list: propulsion and cavitation data, acoustics at ultra-slow speed, combat system acoustics, drive turbine sound profile, shifting sonar profile during rapid dive, frequencies at snorkling and shallow depth, acoustic dynamics shift between shallow stationary float and snorkeling depth. Conversations in media and within the Navy wonder if technical manuals and specifications of submarine platforms really provide any fodder to adversaries. I quote, once again, a submariner: “We don’t know what’s out there. And, yes.”_

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## GuardianRED

PARIKRAMA said:


> Anyone noticed that in last 24 hours much of the noise mellowed down.. especially after the weekend relase of the news report and how the data was stolen and reached the news reporter..
> Like our media suddenly is trying to keep a distance from it..
> On top even if folks are trying to rake it up, the support seems to be weakening.
> 
> For everyone -
> Do check out Chilean Navy Scorpenes.. You might be happy knowing the source of plain vanilla specs in those manuals.
> 
> As i said in earlier posts showed that Indian Submarine hull was under preparation in 2011 and that was the time all components order were placed which started fitting in 2012 onwards, it was practically impossible to have a manual for the first submarine when we dont even know which system and version would finally go into the Kalavari.
> 
> It will finally boil down to Chilean Navy Scorpene Manuals base version for Indian Navy (sample manual model) to build on and make their own for operational purposes.
> 
> Then will come to the million dollar question part-
> Will Chilean navy share the specs with India out in a manual unless its a general purpose manual and does not in any manner compromise the Chilean Scorpenes?
> My logic says they will never compromise just like any other Navy in the world.
> 
> Yes a more through probe must be done to take on DCNS and see what and how we can get some more benefits out of the situation and also seek reassurances that such security breaches are avoided in future... Also to double check all the 22k pages dont reveal any more new bunnies..
> 
> My gut feeling says talk with DGA and ensure we extract some indirect compensation by the way of greater access to the overall tech sharing with us at no cost.



Isn't Monday the day , the aussie reporter is suppose to released docs regarding the Weapon systems?

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## PARIKRAMA

GuardianRED said:


> Isn't Monday the day , the aussie reporter is suppose to released docs regarding the Weapon systems?



Yes he will release and also show case that but again we will check and see if its same as Chilean navy one bcz they have the base version and their HWT is guess what - Blackshark...

I am sure that will be redacted for safety purposes but what it will point is the range, speed and say stuff like how the Weapon system console will look.. Perhaps some depth and pressure parameters also again redacted form..

and the theft disk formal handover  (and yes no copies of the disk being made statement )

I am eagerly waiting..

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## PARIKRAMA

So finally some talks from Cameron on HT

*Leaked Scorpene material just the tip of the iceberg, claims journalist*

Rahul Singh, Hindustan Times, New Delhi
Updated: Aug 28, 2016 10:12 IST

The Australian journalist, who broke the Scorpene submarine leak story, said on Saturday the leaked material posted online by his newspaper was* “just the tip of the iceberg,”** cautioning India that the data’s interception by foreign intelligence agencies in its original form could be damaging.*

Defence minister Manohar Parrikar said on Friday the revelations were not a “big worry”but India was prepared for the worst.

*“The minister’s comments seem to be aimed at calming down concerns in India about sensitive material being available in its uncontrolled form,” journalist Cameron Stewart, 53, told HT from Melbourne.*

Six Scorpene submarines are being built in India in collaboration with French shipbuilder DCNS under a Rs 23,562-crore project.

His newspaper, The Australian, redacted sensitive details before uploading around 30 documents on the web — the leaks that detail the contracted parameters and combat capabilities of the Scorpene run into 22,400 pages.

*The newspaper is unlikely to publish more material from the leaked files.*

He said, *“We don’t intend to publish many more documents on the web. The intention was to reveal the story of this serious breach, not to release documents. The few documents we published on the web were to back the story.”*

The newspaper reported on Friday that the whistleblower behind the leak plans to hand over the disk to the Australian government on Monday.

*As the navy scrambles to assess the potential impact of the leak without access to the massive tranche of documents, defence ministry sources said on Saturday India would activate diplomatic channels to obtain the disk.*

*Stewart has not read the entire set of 22,400 leaked pages but he has pored over “an awful lot of those documents”.*

*“No international navy would want such sensitive details to be out in the public domain. I have gone through all the major directories in the documents with the help of an expert,” he said.*

India has written to French authorities to probe the leak with urgency and share the findings.

South Block sources said the French company has not made direct contact with the government after the leak.

Have Indian agencies contacted him?

*“No one has but even if they did, I will not be in a position to give them any data. The data is not mine, I don’t have a copy of it…I have only accessed it,” he added.*

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india...istleblower/story-eFeTGcf9gbrMoE7GE6AgGK.html

@Abingdonboy @Vergennes @hellfire @Nilgiri @Spectre @GuardianRED @anant_s @Ankit Kumar 002 @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN @dadeechi @R!CK @others

Do you see a changed tone?
Is he backtracking now bcz his motivation and intentions are questioned?

Also its clear he has not gone through the documents and the line
*"I have gone through all the major directories in the documents with the help of an expert,” *
is also a more of cursory take on looking at few docpages as he himself admitted here
*The data is not mine, I don’t have a copy of it…I have only accessed it,”*

Well now lets see what so called rest data reveals.. but this kind of proofs that it was more sensationalism then really substance,, Let the probe complete on rest of 22k dox as well.. It would be much better to see then and match the conclusions..

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## Nilgiri

PARIKRAMA said:


> So finally some talks from Cameron on HT
> 
> *Leaked Scorpene material just the tip of the iceberg, claims journalist*
> 
> Rahul Singh, Hindustan Times, New Delhi
> Updated: Aug 28, 2016 10:12 IST
> 
> The Australian journalist, who broke the Scorpene submarine leak story, said on Saturday the leaked material posted online by his newspaper was* “just the tip of the iceberg,”** cautioning India that the data’s interception by foreign intelligence agencies in its original form could be damaging.*
> 
> Defence minister Manohar Parrikar said on Friday the revelations were not a “big worry”but India was prepared for the worst.
> 
> *“The minister’s comments seem to be aimed at calming down concerns in India about sensitive material being available in its uncontrolled form,” journalist Cameron Stewart, 53, told HT from Melbourne.*
> 
> Six Scorpene submarines are being built in India in collaboration with French shipbuilder DCNS under a Rs 23,562-crore project.
> 
> His newspaper, The Australian, redacted sensitive details before uploading around 30 documents on the web — the leaks that detail the contracted parameters and combat capabilities of the Scorpene run into 22,400 pages.
> 
> *The newspaper is unlikely to publish more material from the leaked files.*
> 
> He said, *“We don’t intend to publish many more documents on the web. The intention was to reveal the story of this serious breach, not to release documents. The few documents we published on the web were to back the story.”*
> 
> The newspaper reported on Friday that the whistleblower behind the leak plans to hand over the disk to the Australian government on Monday.
> 
> *As the navy scrambles to assess the potential impact of the leak without access to the massive tranche of documents, defence ministry sources said on Saturday India would activate diplomatic channels to obtain the disk.*
> 
> *Stewart has not read the entire set of 22,400 leaked pages but he has pored over “an awful lot of those documents”.*
> 
> *“No international navy would want such sensitive details to be out in the public domain. I have gone through all the major directories in the documents with the help of an expert,” he said.*
> 
> India has written to French authorities to probe the leak with urgency and share the findings.
> 
> South Block sources said the French company has not made direct contact with the government after the leak.
> 
> Have Indian agencies contacted him?
> 
> *“No one has but even if they did, I will not be in a position to give them any data. The data is not mine, I don’t have a copy of it…I have only accessed it,” he added.*
> 
> http://www.hindustantimes.com/india...istleblower/story-eFeTGcf9gbrMoE7GE6AgGK.html
> 
> @Abingdonboy @Vergennes @hellfire @Nilgiri @Spectre @GuardianRED @anant_s @Ankit Kumar 002 @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN @dadeechi @R!CK @others
> 
> Do you see a changed tone?
> Is he backtracking now bcz his motivation and intentions are questioned?
> 
> Also its clear he has not gone through the documents and the line
> *"I have gone through all the major directories in the documents with the help of an expert,” *
> is also a more of cursory take on looking at few docpages as he himself admitted here
> *The data is not mine, I don’t have a copy of it…I have only accessed it,”*
> 
> Well now lets see what so called rest data reveals.. but this kind of proofs that it was more sensationalism then really substance,, Let the probe complete on rest of 22k dox as well.. It would be much better to see then and match the conclusions..



Its a classic media style bait and hook strategy.

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## 911

The data is safe with the Australians. Its really safe.

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## Shankranthi

911 said:


> The data is safe with the Australians. Its really safe.



Its a good time to invade them. Their entire population is less than that of Mumbai and Delhi combined.

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## GuardianRED

PARIKRAMA said:


> So finally some talks from Cameron on HT
> 
> *Leaked Scorpene material just the tip of the iceberg, claims journalist*
> 
> Rahul Singh, Hindustan Times, New Delhi
> Updated: Aug 28, 2016 10:12 IST
> 
> The Australian journalist, who broke the Scorpene submarine leak story, said on Saturday the leaked material posted online by his newspaper was* “just the tip of the iceberg,”** cautioning India that the data’s interception by foreign intelligence agencies in its original form could be damaging.*
> 
> Defence minister Manohar Parrikar said on Friday the revelations were not a “big worry”but India was prepared for the worst.
> 
> *“The minister’s comments seem to be aimed at calming down concerns in India about sensitive material being available in its uncontrolled form,” journalist Cameron Stewart, 53, told HT from Melbourne.*
> 
> Six Scorpene submarines are being built in India in collaboration with French shipbuilder DCNS under a Rs 23,562-crore project.
> 
> His newspaper, The Australian, redacted sensitive details before uploading around 30 documents on the web — the leaks that detail the contracted parameters and combat capabilities of the Scorpene run into 22,400 pages.
> 
> *The newspaper is unlikely to publish more material from the leaked files.*
> 
> He said, *“We don’t intend to publish many more documents on the web. The intention was to reveal the story of this serious breach, not to release documents. The few documents we published on the web were to back the story.”*
> 
> The newspaper reported on Friday that the whistleblower behind the leak plans to hand over the disk to the Australian government on Monday.
> 
> *As the navy scrambles to assess the potential impact of the leak without access to the massive tranche of documents, defence ministry sources said on Saturday India would activate diplomatic channels to obtain the disk.*
> 
> *Stewart has not read the entire set of 22,400 leaked pages but he has pored over “an awful lot of those documents”.*
> 
> *“No international navy would want such sensitive details to be out in the public domain. I have gone through all the major directories in the documents with the help of an expert,” he said.*
> 
> India has written to French authorities to probe the leak with urgency and share the findings.
> 
> South Block sources said the French company has not made direct contact with the government after the leak.
> 
> Have Indian agencies contacted him?
> 
> *“No one has but even if they did, I will not be in a position to give them any data. The data is not mine, I don’t have a copy of it…I have only accessed it,” he added.*
> 
> http://www.hindustantimes.com/india...istleblower/story-eFeTGcf9gbrMoE7GE6AgGK.html
> 
> @Abingdonboy @Vergennes @hellfire @Nilgiri @Spectre @GuardianRED @anant_s @Ankit Kumar 002 @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN @dadeechi @R!CK @others
> 
> Do you see a changed tone?
> Is he backtracking now bcz his motivation and intentions are questioned?
> 
> Also its clear he has not gone through the documents and the line
> *"I have gone through all the major directories in the documents with the help of an expert,” *
> is also a more of cursory take on looking at few docpages as he himself admitted here
> *The data is not mine, I don’t have a copy of it…I have only accessed it,”*
> 
> Well now lets see what so called rest data reveals.. but this kind of proofs that it was more sensationalism then really substance,, Let the probe complete on rest of 22k dox as well.. It would be much better to see then and match the conclusions..



Trying to understand the what to make of the article, the Aussie reporter is trying to make himself relevant w.r.t the statement released by our DM and the Our reporter trying to say he is very relevant!

Still lets see what happens next!

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## 911

Shankranthi said:


> Its a good time to invade them. Their entire population is less than that of Mumbai and Delhi combined.


 its funny when western nations show how much they care about India. This leak is only big because the evil Chinese may get their hands on those documents.

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## Shankranthi

911 said:


> its funny when western nations show how much they care about India. This leak is only big because the evil Chinese may get their hands on those documents.



I think it had something to do with DCNS winning the contract to build Australian Submarines. 

It certainly puts DCNS in an disadvantaged position, India may be just collateral damage. Then again, who knows for sure. It could be far more sinister than that.

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## 911

GuardianRED said:


> Trying to understand the what to make of the article, the Aussie reporter is trying to make himself relevant w.r.t the statement released by our DM and the Our reporter trying to say he is very relevant!
> 
> Still lets see what happens next!


Yes India is the center of the stage and no one is questiong the French. Its because the leak happened years ago and when the stray documents reached somewhere else on the planet, so French are clueless and since these documents deals with Indian sub and security, we are in trouble.



Shankranthi said:


> I think it had something to do with DCNS winning the contract to build Australian Submarines.
> 
> It certainly puts DCNS in an disadvantaged position, India may be just collateral damage. Then again, who knows for sure. It could be far more sinister than that.


Only if Australia wants to cancel the recent deal. This only after India cancels the years old deal (its chances are low) which Australians may try and pressure us in coming days if that is their purpose.

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## GuardianRED

911 said:


> Yes India is the center of the stage and no one is questiong the French. Its because the leak happened years ago and when the stray documents reached somewhere else on the planet, so French are clueless and since these documents deals with Indian sub and security, we are in trouble.
> 
> 
> Only if Australia wants to cancel the recent deal. This only after India cancels the years old deal (its chances are low) which Australians may try and pressure us inncoming days if that is their purpose.


I think u need to read couple of posts back, the French are every involved, already a case is open and investigation started.


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## Shankranthi

911 said:


> Only if Australia wants to cancel the recent deal. This only after India cancels the years old deal (its chances are low) which Australians may try and pressure us in coming days if that is their purpose.



Proposed Ausi sub is 1 generation ahead of Scorpene.


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## 911

Shankranthi said:


> Proposed Ausi sub is 1 generation ahead of Scorpene.


Well they paid hefty amount for it too
http://www.news.com.au/technology/i...e/news-story/954c2fe70c454288664ed6cfb9d1004f


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## Hellfire

Shankranthi said:


> Proposed Ausi sub is 1 generation ahead of Scorpene.



How exactly?


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## 911

GuardianRED said:


> I think u need to read couple of posts back, the French are every involved, already a case is open and investigation started.


Its good. And for India, we can't really do much in this other than be worried.


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## GuardianRED

911 said:


> Its good. And for India, we can't really do much in this other than be worried.


No Worries Man, Be Happy!!


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## sathya

While Chile, Malaysia , Brazil not making any statements ?

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## GuardianRED

sathya said:


> While Chile, Malaysia , Brazil not making any statements ?


http://www.thesundaily.my/news/1952017

http://www.freemalaysiatoday.com/ca...24/scorpene-data-leak-has-no-bearing-on-msia/

Publicly they will say they are not affected as its NOT their countries name on this! BUT behind the scenes who knows!

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## Ali Zadi

Shankranthi said:


> Its a good time to invade them. Their entire population is less than that of Mumbai and Delhi combined.



They are the descendants of some very bad people


----------



## dadeechi

sathya said:


> While Chile, Malaysia , Brazil not making any statements ?



Chile & Malaysia has already commissioned.

The target & biggest impact is on India, Brazil & Australia.

India along with DCNS are the biggest losers as Brazil & Australia have little to loose.


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## PARIKRAMA

*Scorpène leak: French firm DCNS moves court for injunction against 'The Australian' newspaper*


PTI Aug 28, 2016 22:00 IST
*
Melbourne:* *Embattled French defence firm DCNS has approached the Supreme Court in Australia seeking an injunction against The Australian from further publishing the leaked documents of India's Scorpene submarine project.*

*The DCNS has also sought a court order to the newspaper to hand over the documents in its possession and removal of the contents from its website.*

*"The publication of this highly valuable document causes a direct harm to DCNS and its customer in terms of spread of sensitive and restricted information, image and reputation," The Australian quoted an affidavit by DCNS lawyer Justine Munsie.*

The newspaper had said that it will publish the documents regarding the weapons system of the submarine on Monday.

Over 22,000 pages of top secret data on the capabilities of six highly advanced submarines being built for the Indian Navy in Mumbai in collaboration with a French company have been leaked.

The move by DCNS comes after a former commander of US Pacific fleet Submarine Force warned that the leaks would undermine the confidence in the ability of French companies to protect classified information.

*Rear Admiral (Retd) John Padgett, who is also the president of the US Naval Submarine League, has said that aggressive action needed to be taken to probe the leak and that France should share the outcome with Australia.
*
*The secret data included details of the capabilities of SM39 anti-ship missile expected to be used on the Scorpene and classified information about the number of targets the missile was capable of processing.*
*
Explaining the implications of the leak, Admiral Padgett said, "It is never good for an opponent to have your playbook."

"As a member of NATO, the French government and French military demonstrate that they enforce effective security controls and have a solid reputation with their allies," he said.

He said the investigation had to determine exactly how the breach occurred and what "aggressive action" would be taken to correct deficient security controls.

His comments came as a French public prosecutor opened a preliminary investigation into the data leak, with DCNS filing a complaint for breach of trust.

"We filed a complaint against unknown persons for breach of trust with the Paris prosecutor," said a DCNS spokesman.*

The DCNS has won a contract to design Australia’s new $50 billion submarine fleet.

http://www.firstpost.com/world/scor...against-the-australian-newspaper-2980736.html

@GuardianRED : There is your weapon system name. This one is also there in Chilean navy and IN as well . All over world there are more than 3500 Exocet missile sold with 33+ countries. Its there in Agosta of PN as well.

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## GuardianRED

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Scorpène leak: French firm DCNS moves court for injunction against 'The Australian' newspaper*
> 
> 
> PTI Aug 28, 2016 22:00 IST
> *
> Melbourne:* *Embattled French defence firm DCNS has approached the Supreme Court in Australia seeking an injunction against The Australian from further publishing the leaked documents of India's Scorpene submarine project.*
> 
> *The DCNS has also sought a court order to the newspaper to hand over the documents in its possession and removal of the contents from its website.*
> 
> *"The publication of this highly valuable document causes a direct harm to DCNS and its customer in terms of spread of sensitive and restricted information, image and reputation," The Australian quoted an affidavit by DCNS lawyer Justine Munsie.*
> 
> The newspaper had said that it will publish the documents regarding the weapons system of the submarine on Monday.
> 
> Over 22,000 pages of top secret data on the capabilities of six highly advanced submarines being built for the Indian Navy in Mumbai in collaboration with a French company have been leaked.
> 
> The move by DCNS comes after a former commander of US Pacific fleet Submarine Force warned that the leaks would undermine the confidence in the ability of French companies to protect classified information.
> 
> *Rear Admiral (Retd) John Padgett, who is also the president of the US Naval Submarine League, has said that aggressive action needed to be taken to probe the leak and that France should share the outcome with Australia.
> *
> *The secret data included details of the capabilities of SM39 anti-ship missile expected to be used on the Scorpene and classified information about the number of targets the missile was capable of processing.*
> *
> Explaining the implications of the leak, Admiral Padgett said, "It is never good for an opponent to have your playbook."
> 
> "As a member of NATO, the French government and French military demonstrate that they enforce effective security controls and have a solid reputation with their allies," he said.
> 
> He said the investigation had to determine exactly how the breach occurred and what "aggressive action" would be taken to correct deficient security controls.
> 
> His comments came as a French public prosecutor opened a preliminary investigation into the data leak, with DCNS filing a complaint for breach of trust.
> 
> "We filed a complaint against unknown persons for breach of trust with the Paris prosecutor," said a DCNS spokesman.*
> 
> The DCNS has won a contract to design Australia’s new $50 billion submarine fleet.
> 
> http://www.firstpost.com/world/scor...against-the-australian-newspaper-2980736.html
> 
> @GuardianRED : There is your weapon system name. This one is also there in Chilean navy and IN as well . All over world there are more than 3500 Exocet missile sold with 33+ countries. Its there in Agosta of PN as well.


LOL ... I think the Aussie lost the plot , when he realized that

A) The main Weapons ie the Blackshark isn't on the IN Boats and if he had released that it can possible to point which of the existing boats its from (Chile or Malaysia)

B) The Exocet Missile like you mentioned is sold all over the world , so nothing new he is releasing!

Now that DCNS approached the courts. Hopefully some truth!

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## PARIKRAMA

+++

Another interesting article
+++
*'No delay in Scorpene programme, India capable of making changes'*
By IANS | *Aug 28, 2016, 10.45 PM IST*
By Anjali Ojha 

NEW DELHI: As the Indian Navy investigates the leaked documents pertaining to its six Scorpene submarines, *top officers say they do not expect the project to be delayed and that the first vessel, INS Kalvari, which is currently undergoing sea trials, will be inducted by the year-end. *

* While the Indian Navy has maintained the leaked data -- which The Australian newspaper that broke the story says runs into 22,400 pages -- will not compromise the boat's stealth capabilities, an officer told IANS that, if needed, India is capable of making suitable changes in the submarines keeping in mind the "worst-case scenario". *

* Changes can be made "at any stage, if needed", the officer said. *

* "We are expecting to induct INS Kalvari in the navy by year-end. The trials have been good. So far we do not see the leaks affecting the schedule," he added. *

The other five submarines are expected to be inducted after a gap of nine months each after the first. 

*We must not forget the submarines are being built by us, so we have all the capabilities for making some changes if required," the officer said. The official however maintained they do not see any need for changes "right now". *

* He said that India will have the real critical information on the boat once the trials are over, and reiterated the Indian Navy's official line that the information in the documents is generic. *

"The final signature of the submarine is still to be established. Those documents, that come out after the trials, will have the actual critical information and will be only with the Indian Navy," the officer said. 

The disclosures in the leaked documents relate to cylindrical and flank array, sonar interception, acoustic signature and levels of noise radiation, among other details. 

However, asked about the Air Independent Propulsion (AIP), which was to give the submarines increased stealth, enabling them to stay under water for longer durations, the officer remained non-committal. 

"The technology is being developed by the DRDO; the process is going on," he officer said. 

The AIP system, being developed by the Maharashtra-based Naval Materials Research Laboratory (NMRL), is a fuel cell that replaces diesel in conventional submarines. It converts methanol-like substances to produce hydrogen, which is the fuel that runs the cell to produce electricity. 

While diesel engines need oxygen to function, these cells are air independent. The system also emits less noise, increasing its stealth -- the most critical feature of a submarine. 

With this system, a conventional submarine that needs to surface every three to four days for replenishing its oxygen supply, can stay underwater for up to two weeks. 

It was earlier expected to be fitted in at least last two of the six Scorpenes but officials later said it may miss the fifth one as well. 

The Scorpene submarines, which are being made by the Mazagaon Dock Limited (MDL), have been designed by the French firm DCNS, from where the documents are believed to have leaked. 

The leak of documents came to light this week with a report in The Australian. The journalist who broke the story, Cameron Stewart, has said the documents were with a whistleblower for at least last two years in Australia. 

Before that, it was for an unknown period on an internet server in Singapore, exposed to threats like hacking. It is not known if anyone accessed the report at that time. 

The documents have triggered fears that they may compromise the submarine's stealth capabilities. 

Tracking a submarine involves sophisticated sonar equipment that can detect, classify, locate and track a vessel based on echoes from its hull and the noise it generates. Hull reflection, radio and radar signals and water pressure can also give away a submarine's location. 

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...le-of-making-changes/articleshow/53900872.cms

+++

From above











https://defence.pk/threads/sensitiv...submarines-leaked.445677/page-29#post-8616171

++
Enjoy...

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## PARIKRAMA

m ravinder said:


> why do you DON'T think it is deliberately leaked by french intelligence taking India in confidence. They gave the end user ( who ever it is) low grade intelligence on Scorpene and in return they got something of high value.
> I feel Indian agencies are not stupid that they were not aware of the leak for the pas 5 years.



I did my good sir and same was written here as well.





https://defence.pk/threads/sensitiv...submarines-leaked.445677/page-30#post-8616279

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## dadeechi

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Scorpène leak: French firm DCNS moves court for injunction against 'The Australian' newspaper*
> 
> 
> PTI Aug 28, 2016 22:00 IST
> *
> Melbourne:* *Embattled French defence firm DCNS has approached the Supreme Court in Australia seeking an injunction against The Australian from further publishing the leaked documents of India's Scorpene submarine project.*
> 
> *The DCNS has also sought a court order to the newspaper to hand over the documents in its possession and removal of the contents from its website.*
> 
> *"The publication of this highly valuable document causes a direct harm to DCNS and its customer in terms of spread of sensitive and restricted information, image and reputation," The Australian quoted an affidavit by DCNS lawyer Justine Munsie.*
> 
> The newspaper had said that it will publish the documents regarding the weapons system of the submarine on Monday.
> 
> Over 22,000 pages of top secret data on the capabilities of six highly advanced submarines being built for the Indian Navy in Mumbai in collaboration with a French company have been leaked.
> 
> The move by DCNS comes after a former commander of US Pacific fleet Submarine Force warned that the leaks would undermine the confidence in the ability of French companies to protect classified information.
> 
> *Rear Admiral (Retd) John Padgett, who is also the president of the US Naval Submarine League, has said that aggressive action needed to be taken to probe the leak and that France should share the outcome with Australia.
> *
> *The secret data included details of the capabilities of SM39 anti-ship missile expected to be used on the Scorpene and classified information about the number of targets the missile was capable of processing.*
> *
> Explaining the implications of the leak, Admiral Padgett said, "It is never good for an opponent to have your playbook."
> 
> "As a member of NATO, the French government and French military demonstrate that they enforce effective security controls and have a solid reputation with their allies," he said.
> 
> He said the investigation had to determine exactly how the breach occurred and what "aggressive action" would be taken to correct deficient security controls.
> 
> His comments came as a French public prosecutor opened a preliminary investigation into the data leak, with DCNS filing a complaint for breach of trust.
> 
> "We filed a complaint against unknown persons for breach of trust with the Paris prosecutor," said a DCNS spokesman.*
> 
> The DCNS has won a contract to design Australia’s new $50 billion submarine fleet.
> 
> http://www.firstpost.com/world/scor...against-the-australian-newspaper-2980736.html
> 
> @GuardianRED : There is your weapon system name. This one is also there in Chilean navy and IN as well . All over world there are more than 3500 Exocet missile sold with 33+ countries. Its there in Agosta of PN as well.




What is the use of this when the leak was already on the internet for couple of years now. Keeping it secret from general public does not mean that the leak would be secret from the agencies and the groups who are interested in it.


*Cross-posting*:

One needs to understand that US-UK-Germany-Australia-Japan-SK is a close knit family.

One has to follow the motive and the money.

If China was involved then they would have never allowed it to be public instead they would have kept the leak secret and used the data during the war.

The fact that the leak is public itself clearly indicates that it was not from China.

The leak was not only to sabotage the Australian sub deal but also to break the Indo-French relationship.

Remember France was the only country from the West which stood by India when it mattered.

It's just not scorpenes deal but there are lot more deals like RAFALEs, P75I, nuclear cooperation etc. that are all the target of this leak. 

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/india-us-rush-to-ink-logistics-pact-parrikar%E2%80%99s-trip-rescheduled-to-help-deal.446209/page-3#ixzz4IeowuYt0

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## aamirzs

In Indian Paper:

*Did India err in choosing French sub?*

*Did India go wrong in opting for the French sub, traversing an unknown and untested path? Before the 2002-05 French connection, all Indian Navy submarines were of Soviet/Russian or German origin. Why then did we opt for the French option?
*
Unlike the country’s air and land forces, the Indian Navy did not have any significant French connection till 2002, when protracted negotiations between New Delhi and Paris ultimately led to the October 6, 2005 contract for the licensed production of six French DCNS submarines at Mumbai’s Mazagon Docks. DCNS was to send technical advisers and provide prefabricated hull elements and combat systems, including command systems, underwater sensors, optronics and communications; while another French company, MBDA, was to supply Exocet SM39 missiles as part of the package. However, the delivery of all six boats, that was to have begun in 2012 and to have been completed in around, is still stuck: not a single one, to date, has been commissioned into the Indian Navy.

How does one then regard the ongoing submarine data leak scandal, and what should India, the affected party, now do? Who is responsible for this “criminal” breach of security and confidentiality, thus jeopardising the very utility of the submarine? India? France? DCNS? Mazagon Docks? The Indian Navy? Retired officers in both Paris and New Delhi? Conmen in Delhi, or middlemen based in exotic islands? The CIA or the ISI? Or Russia, China or Australia? Or someone or some entity that will never be pinned down? A coverup operation to protect those responsible seems almost certain, as the possibility of the involvement of certain interested parties just can’t be ruled out. It is undoubtedly a crisis, the flood of denials from Paris to New Delhi notwithstanding: uncomfortable questions are bound to be raised. Why, how and when did it happen? And who are the gainers?

Some basics, however, seem more than plausible. First, India isn’t yet a high-tech military machine manufacturer, thus its helpless dependence on foreign vendors. Second, India’s traditional scam-oriented procurement process has inevitably made major purchases and acquisitions of arms and military hardware an avoidable victim of time and cost overruns. The Scorpene delay is a good example. Third, no foreign supplier will miss the opportunity for fat profits and will throw in a few morsels in “kickbacks” to “those who matter to fix things”. And finally, rightly or wrongly, there do exist several actors within the Indian system, along with their foreign collaborators, who are capable of going to any extent to make unscrupulous individuals flourish at the expense of the Indian State.

The next question is: why is the Indian Navy constantly in the news since the 1990s for all the wrong reasons? Why not the Army and Air Force? The answer probably lies in the fact that a warship (as a unit) is usually huge, high-tech, with a long gestation period, highly visible and of high value, and is always an attractive asset to milk, in contrast to any single unit of the Army or Air Force gear or hardware. On top of that, and on top of that, only a few nations (US, Russia, Japan, China, Britain, France, Spain, Italy, Germany and India) now have the capability to manufacture fighting ships of at least 5,000 tonnes and above.

One thing must also be remembered here about France. Pakistan traditionally has been the main operator of French submarines in South Asia ever since it inducted the Agosta-70 class boat into its Navy in February 1979 as PNS Hashmat. Pakistan ordered a second batch of three more Agosta-90Bs (which it named Khalid) class boats between 1992 and 1994, and the first ship, built by DCN, Cherbourg, was commissioned on September 6, 1999. The date is significant. September 6 is Pakistan’s Armed Forces Day as India had opened the Lahore-Sialkot front to counter Pakistan’s armour thrust in the Chhamb-Jaurian sector of J&K in 1965.

That is understandable. But why did India begin talks with France on submarines, knowing fully that the company, or its affiliates, was providing similar submarines to Pakistan for long? By and large, the military inventory of India and Pakistan have not been common. When Pakistan used the F-16, Mirage III, Mirage V and F-86 aircraft, India used Ouragon, Mystere, Vampire, Gnat, MiG-21 and AN-12. When the Pakistanis used M-47/M-48 Patton tanks, the Indian arsenal had British and Soviet T-55, PT-76 and a few French AMX-13 light tanks.

Even today, as far as possible, Indian and Pakistani inventories tend to be uncommon. If so, why and how did Indian wisdom change so drastically between 2002 and 2005 to go for a submarine common to both New Delhi and Islamabad? Who in the murky world of the global arms bazaar would resist the temptation of not leaking or selling data for a fortune in the India-Pakistan scenario?

Another disturbing open source nugget, gleaned from the latest edition of Jane’s Fighting Ships, is that the French-supplied Pakistani submarine appears “superior” to the Indian Navy’s yet-to-be-commissioned French-origin Scorpene. Only two parameters are mentioned: the speed of the Pakistani boat is “12 knots surfaced”, while that of the Indian vessel is “11 knots surfaced”. Again, while the Pakistani boat’s range is “8500 nautical miles at 9 knots”, that of the Indian one is “6500 nautical miles at 8 knots”. Is this not “Advantage Pakistan”?

The moot point today is quite simple. Did India, wittingly or unwittingly, go wrong in opting for the French sub, traversing an unknown and untested path? Before the 2002-05 French connection, all Indian Navy submarines were of Soviet/Russian or German origin. Why then did we opt for the French option out of the blue? “Experts”, of course, may challenge this view, but it is hard to see logic in going to a country or company that is supplying the same type of submarine to an unfriendly neighbour next door. It appears at first sight to be a crass case of “business opportunity and profit” on the part of the seller and a misguided, misjudged action on the buyer’s part.

A few words on the Navy’s plight would be in order. Too many problems have afflicted the Navy since the 1990s. The succession at the top appears a chronic problem as several chiefs have either performed miserably or were humiliated by the government of the day. The memory of the scandalous “war room” espionage/leak still rankles. Several accidents in static garrisons have spoilt the fleet’s reputation; now comes the “leakage” of submarine data.

Ever since 2005, France is proving to be an erratic and difficult supplier. French fighter Rafale was chosen for the Indian Air Force way back in January 2012. Not a single aircraft has arrived. And now Scorpene. The contract of 2005 should have led to the first boat being commissioned in 2012. That has not happened. The situation now seems so uncertain that the entire onboard instrument/equipment systems of the “leaked boat” might have to be changed. That means cost and time overruns and a colossal loss of India’s public money. Should India then cancel Scorpene and Rafale and urgently revert to the old and dependable supplier from Moscow?

The writer is an alumnus of the National Defence College

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## PARIKRAMA

*Deep dive: Why Scorpene data leak does not compromise security of Project-75*
*Sushant Singh spoke to experts and submarine veterans to look at the impact of each of the 10 kinds of data breaches that The Australian newspaper reported last week.*

Written by Sushant Singh | Published:August 29, 2016 1:46 am





INS Kalvari at Mazagon docks in Oct 2015.

To coordinate next year’s Golden Jubilee celebrations of the induction of the first submarine in the Navy, *more than 100 retired officers of the submarine branch started a WhatsApp group last month.* This group, which includes three-star officers who have spent decades with submarines, went abuzz at midnight last Tuesday after The Australian newspaper reported that 22,400 pages of documents pertaining to India’s Scorpene submarine programme, called Project-75, had been leaked.

*The veterans studied the few leaked pages — with redacted data — put out by the paper, and intense discussions followed in the group for the first three days. In the end, there was near unanimity that while such data being put out publicly was not a good thing, it did not affect Project-75 in any significant way.*

Under Project-75, French company DCNS provides design and technology to public sector Mazagon Docks to make six Scorpene submarines, the first of which, INS Kalvari was put out for sea trials earlier this year. The hulls of the other five submarines have been cast, and they are scheduled to be commissioned by 2020.

*Captain J S Malik, a retired submariner with 32 years of experience who served as Director of Submarine Operations in Navy Headquarters, said, “Most of this data is generic and belongs to Naval Staff Qualitative Requirements (NSQR) provided by the Navy to the French company, and ‘binding data’ for the product. It does not pertain to any specific submarine, and has limited usage for the adversary.”*

But Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar and Ministry officials have repeatedly asserted that they are “prepared for the worst-case scenario”. What could be the areas of concern for the Navy?





A part of the leaked papers.

*According to Commodore A Jai Singh, a retired submariner who was associated with Project-75 preparations at Navy Headquarters at the turn of the century, “the only thing, which if leaked out from the supplier, that can really compromise the operation of our submarines is the source code of the Fire Control System. It is a top secret thing which the DCNS doesn’t even share with the company providing the weapons. The Australian hasn’t claimed that it is in the possession of the software code, and besides that, everything else is not really going to matter.”*

He added,* “Just the generic technical specifications are little indication of a submarine’s operational capability. The element of stealth and superiority is how a navy operates its submarines with the equipment on board and therein lie the vital elements of secrecy essential for submarine operations.”*

Three top Navy sources have confirmed to The Indian Express that the documents put out so far are not the same as the ones with the Navy. These are dated versions from a period well before the signing of the contract with DCNS in 2005. Navy officials assert that “we are no longer a buyer’s Navy but a builder’s Navy. Only six navies have successfully built ballistic missile submarines, including India. There is no need to be overly concerned as we have the capability of tweaking the design, and the weapon and sensor deployment capability to mitigate any risk from information being compromised.”

The Australian has reported being in possession of 10 types of secret information which compromises the Indian programme. The Indian Express went over each of them with experts to figure out what they mean, and how they could affect the Navy.

Stealth capabilities
Stealth capabilities pertain mainly to the acoustic signature of a submarine, and is a function of many things, including the submarine’s self-noise levels, the propeller configuration, the speed regimes underwater, the noise generated by on-board machinery, and the acoustic damping techniques used both on the hull and within the submarine. The harmonics produced by no two submarines are the same. These spot frequencies, unlike the range given in the documents, are recorded by special equipment after a submarine goes for sea-trials, and kept in the Ship Data Book, a top secret document kept with the captain of the submarine. This data is re-recorded after every major refit, as the harmonics change. *In the case of a European design like the Scorpene, there would not be much to choose between contemporary designs of a relatively similar size which would operate in the same frequency ranges.*

Frequencies at which submarines gain intelligence
Most modern submarine Electronic Search Measures (ESM) systems operate in a frequency range of 0.2 to 40 GHz, so to learn that Scorpenes operate in a similar frequency band is no compromise. Similarly, submarines are fitted with navigational radars with commercial applications, which operate in a particular frequency range worldwide. A modern submarine rarely, if ever, transmits at sea either from its radars or its sonars, or even its communication sets. A* Naval officer who commanded a submarine for six years said that he used an active sonar only thrice in his tenure, that too only to test the equipment and validate the training of his staff.*

Noise levels submarines could reach at certain speeds
Noise levels are a function of the submarine speed and the speed of rotation of a propeller, which is recorded during sea trials and noted in the Ship Data Book. *The data put out is the NSQR limits given by the Navy to the designers that it should not exceed so many decibels at various speeds.*

Diving depths, range and endurance
Range and endurance of all submarines are in the open domain. While specific depths may not be listed in the open specifications, most submarines the world over operate in a more or less similar depth envelope. Endurance of any submarine is dependent on its maximum patrol period, which determines the quantity of fuel carried. It varies between 50 and 60 days in the case of India’s submarines.

Magnetic, electromagnetic and infra-red data
*Every submarine is demagnetised after construction and undergoes trials at the underwater ranges at Goa. The data for even the first submarine has not been recorded so far. This data is updated even if a submarine has stayed in a dry dock for a prolonged period. Rarely has a submarine been detected by an MRASW aircraft fitted with a Magnetic Anomaly Detector. Since submarines do not transmit, they are not vulnerable to detection in the e-m spectrum.*

Specifications of the submarine’s torpedo launch system and combat system
*The Navy has not selected the torpedo for the six submarines after the contract for Black Shark torpedoes from the Italian company WASS was cancelled following the VVIP helicopter controversy. Based on the choice of weapons and sensors on board, and the operating philosophy, the combat system would be programmed by the Navy, so there would be very little to be gained from the basic characteristics of the system. The secrecy lies in their programming by the Navy.*

Speed and conditions needed for using the periscope
*Modern submarines rarely plane to periscope depth except for the minimum time required to charge their batteries. This duration is also a function of the submarine’s mission profile, as well as the tactical exploitation of the platform in the prevailing operational scenario. Knowing the speed and conditions needed for using the periscope actually discloses little or no information about what the submarine is doing or intends to do.*

Propeller’s noise specifications
*Each propeller generates its own harmonics of noise which is determined after extensive trials, while the data put out is the generic NSQR data. Even a minor chip of 2-3 mm completely changes propeller noise. The propeller generates different noise at different speeds at varying depths and varying hydrological conditions. The submarine is equipped with cavitation meters, to assess the noise level and accordingly vary its speed or depth to find the most suitable depth and speed profile to operate at.*

Radiated noise levels when the submarine surfaces
*A submarine is unlikely to surface in an operational deployment, and will do so if required, only in friendly waters. In an emergency, if a submarine has no choice but to surface, its visual presence will be easier to detect than its acoustic signature.*

Weapons data
*Weapons used in peacetime during training and during war operate on totally different frequencies. The war-shots are launched on frequency hopping mechanism, unlike peacetime firing. A veteran submariner gave the example of the only test war-shot fired by him in 2003 off the coast of Mumbai which could not be recorded by any of the half a dozen Indian ships monitoring the firing, despite knowing the exact timing and the location of the target. Moreover, the Pakistan Navy is also in possession of the same Exocet missile which these Scorpenes will use*.

http://indianexpress.com/article/ex...ta-leak-manohar-parrikar-indian-navy-3001106/

++++

*French submarine builder tries to plug global leak in Australian court*




An Indian navy Scorpene submarine begins sea trials. Picture: Reuters


The Australian
12:00AM August 29, 2016
*CAMERON STEWART*



Associate Editor
Melbourne
@camstewarttheoz
*The French shipbuilder at the centre of a global submarine data leak scandal is threatening legal action today to prevent further publication of the information contained in 22,400 secret documents obtained by The Australian.

The move by DCNS — which has won a contract to design Australia’s new $50 billion submarine fleet — comes as a former commander of the US Pacific Fleet Submarine Force warned that the Scorpene leaks scandal would undermine confidence in the ability of French companies to protect classified information.*

Rear Admiral (retired) John Padgett, who is also the president of the influential US Naval Submarine League, has warned that “aggressive action” needed to be taken to investigate the leak and that France should share the outcome with Australia.

The rare public criticism of France by a senior US naval figure underlines the extent of US concern about the Edward Snowden-style leak of the DCNS documents, which reveal the highly sensitive combat capabilities of India’s new Scorpene submarine fleet.

India’s Defence Minister, Manohar Parrikar, who has ordered an investigation of the leak, has tried to allay fears of the damage, saying the leak was most likely “not a big worry” because the data did not contain weapons system details.

However, the leaked secret data seen by _The Australian _includes details of the capabilities of the SM39 anti-ship missile expected to be used on the Scorpene.

The data includes the number of targets the missile is capable of processing, its launch details and how many targets could be downloaded before firing.

*Lawyers for DCNS have told The Australian the company will seek an injunction in the Supreme Court of NSW today to prevent further publication of documents.

The company is also seeking a court order to force The Australian to hand over the documents and remove them from its website. “The publication of this highly valuable document causes a direct harm to DCNS and its customer in terms of spread of sensitive and restricted information, image and reputation,’’ says an affidavit by DCNS’s lawyer Justine Munsie.*

_The Australian _redacted the most sensitive details from the documents before their publication.

Admiral Padgett said the most significant implication of the DCNS leak was that any potential adversary, if armed with classified data, could create and exploit the vulnerabilities it revealed.

“It is never good for an opponent to have your playbook,” he said. “As a member of NATO, the French government and French military demonstrate that they enforce effective security controls and have a solid reputation with their allies.

“It is not clear to me that the French military-industrial base meets those same standards and breaches such as the (Scorpene data leak) undermine confidence that sensitive or classified information will remain secure.”

Admiral Padgett said the leak investigation had to determine exactly how the breach occurred and what “aggressive action” would be taken to correct deficient security controls. His comments came as a French public prosecutor opened a preliminary investigation into the data leak, with DCNS filing a complaint for breach of trust.

“We filed a complaint against unknown persons for breach of trust with the Paris prosecutor,” said a DCNS spokesman.

The alleged beach of trust reportedly includes receiving stolen goods and complicity.

The Turnbull government has publicly sought to play down concerns about the potential implications for Australia’s future submarine project, saying it was confident that strict and robust measures are in place to protect classified information.

But privately the Defence Department has warned DCNS it will demand the highest level of information security on the project.

Australia hopes to install a US combat system in the DCNS submarine, the Shortfin Barracuda.

“In my experience, the US Navy is very careful when sharing capability and components with others and must be convinced that adequate controls are in place to safeguard the interests of the US and prevent any compromise of US combat capability,” said Admiral Padgett, who commanded the Pacific submarine fleet from 2001 to 2003.

*He acted as occasional consultant to German shipbuilder TKMS, which was a losing bidder for the Australian submarine project.*

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...t/news-story/92838db53f7b8b851a5f2b977d4e0305

+++
I like the last line.. occasional consultant..

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## PARIKRAMA

+++

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## PARIKRAMA



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## SirHatesALot

Its all damage control now.
As usual we got screwed again.


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## 911

PARIKRAMA said:


> *more than 100 retired officers of the submarine branch started a WhatsApp group last month*





PARIKRAMA said:


> *The veterans studied the few leaked pages — with redacted data — put out by the paper, and intense discussions followed in the group for the first three days.*


 Please someone kill me

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## cloud_9

The guy has already said that he hasn't released any sensitive information but we have experts doing "intense discussions" to study those few pages and lo behold they have arrived at a conclusion!

Topi Drama!



911 said:


> Please someone kill me


Just shows the quality of the Navy personnel training.

Hope that they haven't heard about Snapchat!

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## GuardianRED

SirHatesALot said:


> Its all damage control now.
> As usual we got screwed again.


How are we screwed?


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## cerberus

cloud_9 said:


> The guy has already said that he hasn't released any sensitive information but we have experts doing "intense discussions" to study those few pages and lo behold they have arrived at a conclusion!
> 
> Topi Drama!



The guy journalists a didn't know about what restricted and what is classified 

Indian Navy compared leaked data of with original blue prints of submarine which under construction 

And they find the leak data is 4-5 years old

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## GuardianRED

PARIKRAMA said:


> +++
> 
> View attachment 329783


Threated Legal Action... Sorry pal, its just the beginning!.... Looks like vishu is coming to his senses

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## barbarosa

aamirzs said:


> In Indian Paper:
> 
> *Did India err in choosing French sub?*
> 
> *Did India go wrong in opting for the French sub, traversing an unknown and untested path? Before the 2002-05 French connection, all Indian Navy submarines were of Soviet/Russian or German origin. Why then did we opt for the French option?
> *
> Unlike the country’s air and land forces, the Indian Navy did not have any significant French connection till 2002, when protracted negotiations between New Delhi and Paris ultimately led to the October 6, 2005 contract for the licensed production of six French DCNS submarines at Mumbai’s Mazagon Docks. DCNS was to send technical advisers and provide prefabricated hull elements and combat systems, including command systems, underwater sensors, optronics and communications; while another French company, MBDA, was to supply Exocet SM39 missiles as part of the package. However, the delivery of all six boats, that was to have begun in 2012 and to have been completed in around, is still stuck: not a single one, to date, has been commissioned into the Indian Navy.
> 
> How does one then regard the ongoing submarine data leak scandal, and what should India, the affected party, now do? Who is responsible for this “criminal” breach of security and confidentiality, thus jeopardising the very utility of the submarine? India? France? DCNS? Mazagon Docks? The Indian Navy? Retired officers in both Paris and New Delhi? Conmen in Delhi, or middlemen based in exotic islands? The CIA or the ISI? Or Russia, China or Australia? Or someone or some entity that will never be pinned down? A coverup operation to protect those responsible seems almost certain, as the possibility of the involvement of certain interested parties just can’t be ruled out. It is undoubtedly a crisis, the flood of denials from Paris to New Delhi notwithstanding: uncomfortable questions are bound to be raised. Why, how and when did it happen? And who are the gainers?
> 
> Some basics, however, seem more than plausible. First, India isn’t yet a high-tech military machine manufacturer, thus its helpless dependence on foreign vendors. Second, India’s traditional scam-oriented procurement process has inevitably made major purchases and acquisitions of arms and military hardware an avoidable victim of time and cost overruns. The Scorpene delay is a good example. Third, no foreign supplier will miss the opportunity for fat profits and will throw in a few morsels in “kickbacks” to “those who matter to fix things”. And finally, rightly or wrongly, there do exist several actors within the Indian system, along with their foreign collaborators, who are capable of going to any extent to make unscrupulous individuals flourish at the expense of the Indian State.
> 
> The next question is: why is the Indian Navy constantly in the news since the 1990s for all the wrong reasons? Why not the Army and Air Force? The answer probably lies in the fact that a warship (as a unit) is usually huge, high-tech, with a long gestation period, highly visible and of high value, and is always an attractive asset to milk, in contrast to any single unit of the Army or Air Force gear or hardware. On top of that, and on top of that, only a few nations (US, Russia, Japan, China, Britain, France, Spain, Italy, Germany and India) now have the capability to manufacture fighting ships of at least 5,000 tonnes and above.
> 
> One thing must also be remembered here about France. Pakistan traditionally has been the main operator of French submarines in South Asia ever since it inducted the Agosta-70 class boat into its Navy in February 1979 as PNS Hashmat. Pakistan ordered a second batch of three more Agosta-90Bs (which it named Khalid) class boats between 1992 and 1994, and the first ship, built by DCN, Cherbourg, was commissioned on September 6, 1999. The date is significant. September 6 is Pakistan’s Armed Forces Day as India had opened the Lahore-Sialkot front to counter Pakistan’s armour thrust in the Chhamb-Jaurian sector of J&K in 1965.
> 
> That is understandable. But why did India begin talks with France on submarines, knowing fully that the company, or its affiliates, was providing similar submarines to Pakistan for long? By and large, the military inventory of India and Pakistan have not been common. When Pakistan used the F-16, Mirage III, Mirage V and F-86 aircraft, India used Ouragon, Mystere, Vampire, Gnat, MiG-21 and AN-12. When the Pakistanis used M-47/M-48 Patton tanks, the Indian arsenal had British and Soviet T-55, PT-76 and a few French AMX-13 light tanks.
> 
> Even today, as far as possible, Indian and Pakistani inventories tend to be uncommon. If so, why and how did Indian wisdom change so drastically between 2002 and 2005 to go for a submarine common to both New Delhi and Islamabad? Who in the murky world of the global arms bazaar would resist the temptation of not leaking or selling data for a fortune in the India-Pakistan scenario?
> 
> Another disturbing open source nugget, gleaned from the latest edition of Jane’s Fighting Ships, is that the French-supplied Pakistani submarine appears “superior” to the Indian Navy’s yet-to-be-commissioned French-origin Scorpene. Only two parameters are mentioned: the speed of the Pakistani boat is “12 knots surfaced”, while that of the Indian vessel is “11 knots surfaced”. Again, while the Pakistani boat’s range is “8500 nautical miles at 9 knots”, that of the Indian one is “6500 nautical miles at 8 knots”. Is this not “Advantage Pakistan”?
> 
> The moot point today is quite simple. Did India, wittingly or unwittingly, go wrong in opting for the French sub, traversing an unknown and untested path? Before the 2002-05 French connection, all Indian Navy submarines were of Soviet/Russian or German origin. Why then did we opt for the French option out of the blue? “Experts”, of course, may challenge this view, but it is hard to see logic in going to a country or company that is supplying the same type of submarine to an unfriendly neighbour next door. It appears at first sight to be a crass case of “business opportunity and profit” on the part of the seller and a misguided, misjudged action on the buyer’s part.
> 
> A few words on the Navy’s plight would be in order. Too many problems have afflicted the Navy since the 1990s. The succession at the top appears a chronic problem as several chiefs have either performed miserably or were humiliated by the government of the day. The memory of the scandalous “war room” espionage/leak still rankles. Several accidents in static garrisons have spoilt the fleet’s reputation; now comes the “leakage” of submarine data.
> 
> Ever since 2005, France is proving to be an erratic and difficult supplier. French fighter Rafale was chosen for the Indian Air Force way back in January 2012. Not a single aircraft has arrived. And now Scorpene. The contract of 2005 should have led to the first boat being commissioned in 2012. That has not happened. The situation now seems so uncertain that the entire onboard instrument/equipment systems of the “leaked boat” might have to be changed. That means cost and time overruns and a colossal loss of India’s public money. Should India then cancel Scorpene and Rafale and urgently revert to the old and dependable supplier from Moscow?
> 
> The writer is an alumnus of the National Defence College


Very serious case for India.


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## GuardianRED

cloud_9 said:


> The guy has already said that he hasn't released any sensitive information but we have experts doing "intense discussions" to study those few pages and lo behold they have arrived at a conclusion!
> 
> Topi Drama!
> 
> 
> Just shows the quality of the Navy personnel training.
> 
> Hope that they haven't heard about Snapchat!


U did read it RETIRED NAVY personnel



barbarosa said:


> Very serious case for India.


Cautious YES.... Serious I don't think SO!


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## cloud_9

cerberus said:


> The guy journalists a didn't know about what restricted and what is classified
> 
> Indian Navy compared leaked data of with original blue prints
> 
> And they find the leak 5-6 old


Sorry! They hire defence consultants and experts to go through the data.Just like Guardian and co did with wiki leaks.


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## cerberus

cloud_9 said:


> Sorry! They hire defence consultants and experts to go through the data.Just like Guardian and co did with wiki leaks.



So they have data which India has now 

The Australian clearly mentioned data which they posses is leake in 2011 

Navy clearly mentioned that it not what they have currently in there possession which original and customise blue print of scorpene 

Navy matched both the documents
Leaked one And Original Indian scorpene documents 


And let me tell you OEM never documents ultra classified data 
To client so early 

Even first submarine is not complete its extensive see trials

It's TOT not DCNS transferring all projects development data with India at once 

The data safe somewhere in France

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## cerberus

cloud_9 said:


> Yes! You don't need a crystal ball to figure out the current condition when you have submarines sinking around your ports.



Now don't waste its seems like now you empty with arguments now 
Come the flame bate 

@PARIKRAMA @WebMaster take out the troll with off topic 
Rants

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## GuardianRED

cloud_9 said:


> Yes! You don't need a crystal ball to figure out the current condition when you have submarines sinking around your ports.


??? What are u talking abt? how r these two related?

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## cerberus

cloud_9 said:


> Do yourself a favour and read the article again.
> 
> 
> LOL! What?



I read it I have even downloaded his leak documents 

The documents are date 2011 as mentioned 
In the Australian newspaper 
Paper since the said news surfaced 

Perhaps you missed that part purposely they mentioned it there every article that it was leaked in 2011 in some south Asian country

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## cloud_9

cerberus said:


> I read it I have even downloaded his leak documents
> 
> The documents are date 2011 as mentioned
> In the Australian newspaper
> Paper since the said news surfaced
> 
> Perhaps you missed that part purposely they mentioned it there every article that it was leaked in 2011 in some south Asian country


Why are you mad for some unknown reasons? Good on ya,you have this figured out!


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## ashok321

*Scorpene leak: Data includes details on missile likely to be used on the submarine*
*




*
http://www.newindianexpress.com/nat...n-the-submarine/2016/08/28/article3601425.ece


NEW DELHI: Leaked documents on the Scopene submarine include details of the capabilities of the SM.39 anti-ship missile expected to be used on the submarine, The Australian has said in its latest report.

Cameron Stewart, the journalist who broke the story of leak of French company DCNS's documents, also said in the latest report that the firm is threatening legal action against the newspaper to prevent further publication of information.

The report comes a day after Stewart tweeted he will publish the documents with weapon information.

"India's Defence Minister, Manohar Parrikar, who has ordered an investigation of the leak, has tried to allay fears of the damage, saying the leak was most likely 'not a big worry' because the data did not contain weapons system details. However, the leaked secret data seen by The Australian includes details of the capabilities of the SM39 anti-ship missile expected to be used on the Scorpene," said his story in The Australian.

*"The data includes the number of targets the missile is capable of processing, its launch details and how many targets could be downloaded before firing,"* the report said.

The Scorpenes, with six torpedo launching tubes, are to be armed with SM-39 Exocet missiles, a sea-skimming, solid fueled, anti-ship missile with an operational range up to 180 km and terminal active radar homing.

The report also said the DCNS is threatening the newspaper of legal action.

"The French shipbuilder at the centre of a global submarine data leak scandal is threatening legal action today to prevent further publication of the information contained in 22,400 secret documents obtained by The Australian."

The report said lawyers for DCNS have told The Australian the company will seek an injunction in the Supreme Court of New South Wales on Monday to prevent further publication of documents.

It added that DCNS is also seeking a court order to force the newspaper to hand over the documents and remove them from its website.

"The publication of this highly valuable document causes a direct harm to DCNS and its customer in terms of spread of sensitive and restricted information, image and reputation," The Australian quotes an affidavit by DCNS's lawyer Justine Munsie as saying.

Around 22,400 pages of data was leaked from DCNS, which contains critical information of India's Scorpene submarines. The Indian Navy has however maintained that the information is not alarming, as the real signature of the under trial first boat, as well as others, is yet to be finalised.

Parrikar, on Friday had said the leaked documents do not contain information on the weapons systems.

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## BON PLAN

hellfire said:


> How exactly?


Scorpene is a 2000' tech (with some french tech used in SSBN "Le triomphant" for noise reduction). 2000 tons sub.

Barracuda Shortfin is a 2015' tech, studied for the SSN Barracuda, the newer french submarine, 4000+ tons sub.

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## cerberus

cloud_9 said:


> Why are you mad for some unknown reasons? Good on ya,you have this figured out!



It's you who looking clueless here 

Which simply have no idea on subject in hand 

Probably though it's embarrassing for India that disputed so sensitive data leaked 


After rebuffed and countered by Naval experts 
You stated doubting naval experts like you are some some hotshot 

After that you purposely indulge in flame bait it clearly seen who is mad here and frustrated here


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## cerberus

ashok321 said:


> *Scorpene leak: Data includes details on missile likely to be used on the submarine*
> *
> View attachment 329799
> *
> http://www.newindianexpress.com/nat...n-the-submarine/2016/08/28/article3601425.ece
> 
> 
> NEW DELHI: Leaked documents on the Scopene submarine include details of the capabilities of the SM.39 anti-ship missile expected to be used on the submarine, The Australian has said in its latest report.
> 
> Cameron Stewart, the journalist who broke the story of leak of French company DCNS's documents, also said in the latest report that the firm is threatening legal action against the newspaper to prevent further publication of information.
> 
> The report comes a day after Stewart tweeted he will publish the documents with weapon information.
> 
> "India's Defence Minister, Manohar Parrikar, who has ordered an investigation of the leak, has tried to allay fears of the damage, saying the leak was most likely 'not a big worry' because the data did not contain weapons system details. However, the leaked secret data seen by The Australian includes details of the capabilities of the SM39 anti-ship missile expected to be used on the Scorpene," said his story in The Australian.
> 
> *"The data includes the number of targets the missile is capable of processing, its launch details and how many targets could be downloaded before firing,"* the report said.
> 
> The Scorpenes, with six torpedo launching tubes, are to be armed with SM-39 Exocet missiles, a sea-skimming, solid fueled, anti-ship missile with an operational range up to 180 km and terminal active radar homing.
> 
> The report also said the DCNS is threatening the newspaper of legal action.
> 
> "The French shipbuilder at the centre of a global submarine data leak scandal is threatening legal action today to prevent further publication of the information contained in 22,400 secret documents obtained by The Australian."
> 
> The report said lawyers for DCNS have told The Australian the company will seek an injunction in the Supreme Court of New South Wales on Monday to prevent further publication of documents.
> 
> It added that DCNS is also seeking a court order to force the newspaper to hand over the documents and remove them from its website.
> 
> "The publication of this highly valuable document causes a direct harm to DCNS and its customer in terms of spread of sensitive and restricted information, image and reputation," The Australian quotes an affidavit by DCNS's lawyer Justine Munsie as saying.
> 
> Around 22,400 pages of data was leaked from DCNS, which contains critical information of India's Scorpene submarines. The Indian Navy has however maintained that the information is not alarming, as the real signature of the under trial first boat, as well as others, is yet to be finalised.
> 
> Parrikar, on Friday had said the leaked documents do not contain information on the weapons systems.



India not even consider weapons on there scorpene sub's 

Black shark was rejected


It's clear now it's Chilean version


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## BON PLAN

aamirzs said:


> is that the French-supplied Pakistani submarine appears “superior” to the Indian Navy’s yet-to-be-commissioned French-origin Scorpene. Only two parameters are mentioned: the speed of the Pakistani boat is “12 knots surfaced”, while that of the Indian vessel is “11 knots surfaced”. Again, while the Pakistani boat’s range is “8500 nautical miles at 9 knots”, that of the Indian one is “6500 nautical miles at 8 knots”. Is this not “Advantage Pakistan”?


The surface speed is useless. It's a SUBmarine, not a frigate.
You can be sure the Scorpene is largely better. **** Agosta is a 1750 tons, while indian scorpene is a 2000 tons. Scorpene AIP is at least a generation ahead. The scorpene skull is far better (with a skipjack form when the Agosta has a less contoured nose).

Maybe they are comparing AIP Agosta datas with non AIP Scorpene one. If not, no way.



aamirzs said:


> Ever since 2005, France is proving to be an erratic and difficult supplier. French fighter Rafale was chosen for the Indian Air Force way back in January 2012. Not a single aircraft has arrived.


It's not the french fault. Just ink the deal !

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## cloud_9

cerberus said:


> It's you who looking clueless here
> 
> Which simply have no idea on subject in hand
> 
> Probably though it's embarrassing for India that disputed so sensitive data leaked
> 
> 
> After rebuffed and countered by Naval experts
> You stated doubting naval experts like you are some some hotshot
> 
> After that you purposely indulge in flame bait it clearly seen who is mad here and frustrated here



I'm happy to hear Indian Navy experts can reach conclusions without the full set of data,that's a skill I would love to acquire after I hang up my boots.


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## cerberus

cloud_9 said:


> I'm happy to hear Indian Navy experts can reach conclusions without the full set of data,that's a skill I would love to acquire after I hang up my boots.


Indian Navy expert have the original blue prints of data which currently in construction in india

They matched document what is leaked and it's finding of data which Australian leaked are dated 4-5 old and standard title operating manual

And different from what Navy currently has in their possession which classified

I already explained this to you earlier

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## BON PLAN

ashok321 said:


> The Scorpenes, with six torpedo launching tubes, are to be armed with SM-39 Exocet missiles, a sea-skimming, solid fueled, anti-ship missile with an operational range up to 180 km and terminal active radar homing.


WRONG !
The range of Exocet 39SM (SM like Sous Marin = sub in french) is 60km.
180 km is the range of the exocet 40 block 3 (with a small turbofan). This model DOESN'T exists for submarine launch.

All is said about the veracity of this news.

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## ashok321

*'No delay in Scorpene programme, India capable of making changes'*

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...le-of-making-changes/articleshow/53900872.cms







NEW DELHI: As the Indian Navyinvestigates the leaked documents pertaining to its six Scorpene submarines, top officers say they do not expect the project to be delayed and that the first vessel, INS Kalvari, which is currently undergoing sea trials, will be inducted by the year-end. 

While the Indian Navy has maintained the leaked data -- which The Australian newspaper that broke the story says runs into 22,400 pages -- will not compromise the boat's stealth capabilities, an officer told IANS that, *if needed, India is capable of making suitable changes in the submarines keeping in mind the "worst-case scenario". *

*Changes can be made "at any stage, if needed", the officer said. *

*"We are expecting to induct INS Kalvari in the navy by year-end.* The trials have been good. So far we do not see the leaks affecting the schedule," he added. 

The other five submarines are expected to be inducted after a gap of nine months each after the first. 

"We must not forget the submarines are being built by us, so we have all the capabilities for making some changes if required," the officer said. The official however maintained they do not see any need for changes "right now". 

He said that India will have the real critical information on the boat once the trials are over, and reiterated the Indian Navy's official line that the information in the documents is generic. 

"*The final signature of the submarine is still to be established. Those documents, that come out after the trials, will have the actual critical information and will be only with the Indian Navy,*" the officer said. 

The disclosures in the leaked documents relate to cylindrical and flank array, sonar interception, acoustic signature and levels of noise radiation, among other details. 

However, asked about the Air Independent Propulsion (AIP), which was to give the submarines increased stealth, enabling them to stay under water for longer durations, the officer remained non-committal. 

"The technology is being developed by the DRDO; the process is going on," he officer said. 

The AIP system, being developed by the Maharashtra-based Naval Materials Research Laboratory (NMRL), is a fuel cell that replaces diesel in conventional submarines. It converts methanol-like substances to produce hydrogen, which is the fuel that runs the cell to produce electricity. 

While diesel engines need oxygen to function, these cells are air independent. The system also emits less noise, increasing its stealth -- the most critical feature of a submarine. 

With this system, a conventional submarine that needs to surface every three to four days for replenishing its oxygen supply, can stay underwater for up to two weeks. 

It was earlier expected to be fitted in at least last two of the six Scorpenes but officials later said it may miss the fifth one as well. 

The Scorpene submarines, which are being made by the Mazagaon Dock Limited (MDL), have been designed by the French firm DCNS, from where the documents are believed to have leaked. 

The leak of documents came to light this week with a report in The Australian. The journalist who broke the story, Cameron Stewart, has said the documents were with a whistleblower for at least last two years in Australia. 

Before that, it was for an unknown period on an internet server in Singapore, exposed to threats like hacking. It is not known if anyone accessed the report at that time. 

The documents have triggered fears that they may compromise the submarine's stealth capabilities. 

Tracking a submarine involves sophisticated sonar equipment that can detect, classify, locate and track a vessel based on echoes from its hull and the noise it generates. Hull reflection, radio and radar signals and water pressure can also give away a submarine's location.

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## cerberus

BON PLAN said:


> WRONG !
> The range of Exocet 39SM (SM like Sous Marin = sub in french) is 60km.
> 180 km is the range of the exocet 40 block 3 (with a small turbofan). This model DOESN'T exists for submarine launch.
> 
> All is said about the veracity of this news.


What are you expecting from journalists

India for that matter is not even selected weapons for its submarine

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## cerberus

cloud_9 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/770146383533862913
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/770146963664801793
> 
> Jeez! Somebody should fax those few pages to these idiots,waiting for all the 22,000 pages to be released.............Experts,Duh!


Ohh now comes to Twitter source's

When you finished with technical arguments

Without having the full knowledge of the full matter it's expected from a fanboy

There breach of the clause in deal
So MoD will have every right to know the reason

So stay carm as of now nothing substance in any of this news

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## GuardianRED

cloud_9 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/770146383533862913
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/770146963664801793
> 
> Jeez! Somebody should fax those few pages to these idiots,waiting for all the 22,000 pages to be released.............Experts,Duh!


Only us indians (Eg this guy above) like to believe a Foreigner in this case an Aussie reporter and Believe him to be the Gospel Truth other then our own actual Naval Officers! ... Sad 

Also Who uses fax any more?

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## John Reese

cloud_9 said:


> Jeez! Somebody should fax those few pages to these idiots,waiting for all the 22,000 pages to be released.............Experts,Duh!


@PARIKRAMA Now People Here Stoop to this Level that they Abusing Navy personals Just To Score brownie Points in argument

Guy Have No idea of Any Technicalities in the Matter

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## GuardianRED

John Reese said:


> @PARIKRAMA Now People Here Stoop to this Level that they Abusing Navy personals Just To Score brownie Points in argument


Hey There John Reese , Where art thou? Welcome back!

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## nair

cloud_9 said:


> Jeez! Somebody should fax those few pages to these idiots,waiting for all the 22,000 pages to be released.............Experts,Duh!



What were you expecting?

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## GuardianRED

cloud_9 said:


> Thanks for your detailed analysis! I'm impressed with your Structural,Fluids,E&E know how!
> 
> 
> Abusign Navy personnel? When did they become a holy cow?
> 
> Not sure why everyone loves complaining to @Parikarma



And when does the Aussie Reporter Being to be the Gospel Truth!?


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## John Reese

GuardianRED said:


> Hey There John Reese , Where art thou? Welcome back!


Hey ,This the Machine 
'Can you Hear Me'

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## dadeechi

m ravinder said:


> The possibility is, they came to know about the deliberate disinformation by DGSE and RAW to misguide the Chinese and Chinese when came to know about it now trying to use these documents to defame the image of French DCNS on security breach issues.



Plausible but not convincing.

Note that France is also one of the biggest supporter of China in spite of EU sanctions. So China taking down France is not very convincing.

More over timing of the leak is tied to the Aussie Sub deal needs to be considered..

There is very little probability of the Leak coming either from France, India or China.

The leak seems to be the handiwork of corrupt or disgruntled employee/contractor associated with the program working in tandem with a rival group.

=========================================================================================


Granted, the embargo was ambiguously worded, and in the absence of enforcement mechanism it us up to individual member states to decide how and if to uphold it. Several member states, *France included, have sold so-called “dual-use” items (including jet engines, helicopters and radars) to China, exploiting the grey zone*. A report by the Swedish Defence Research Agency in 2010 notes that as a result of the dual-use policy, EU arms sales to China have in fact increased since 1989: EU countries’ military exports to China, excluding Hong Kong and Macao, reached a total of 134 million euros in 2006, according to the EU Annual Report on Arms Exports. However, the real export figure is higher, since certain countries do not provide data. On top of actual exports, EU member states in 2006 issued licences for arms exports to China worth 292 million euros. *During 2007 reported exports were somewhat lower, at 92 million euros, and the value of licences issued was 210 million euros. In 2007, France accounted for 94 percent of licences and 99 percent of exports to China.*

http://thinking-taiwan.com/will-china-buy-french-built-mistral-ships/


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## PARIKRAMA



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## Stephen Cohen

PARIKRAMA said:


> View attachment 329889



Hello Sir Ji 

DO you think that India has been Lucky in the sense that the whole Scorpene
project got Delayed

And NOW we will be able to prevent the Real damage to KALVARI
ie the one submarine completed -- we dodged a bullet

And also we can take corrective actions for the other submarines that are coming up

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## dadeechi

Stephen Cohen said:


> Hello Sir Ji
> 
> DO you thinj that India has been Lucky in the sense that the whole Scorpene
> project got Delayed
> 
> And NOW we will be able to prevent the Real damage to KALVARI
> ie the one submarine completed -- we dodged a bullet
> 
> And also we can take corrective actions for the other submarines that are coming up



Yes. The delays are turning out to be a blessing in disguise.

We should cap scorpenes to 4 only and move ahead with P75I contract instead with either French or Russian options only.

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## Stephen Cohen

dadeechi said:


> Yes. The delays are turning out to be a blessing in disguise.
> 
> We should cap scorpenes to 4 only and move ahead with P75I contract instead with either French or Russian options only.



Time is also a big factor here 

We have just made a new second line for submarines at MDL 

And it was expected that we would go for more Scorpenes 

If The navy feels that the damage can be mitigated ; contained and minimised 
then more Scorpenes would come in quickly ; A new contract will take a lot of time

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## dadeechi

Stephen Cohen said:


> Time is also a big factor here
> 
> We have just made a new second line for submarines at MDL
> 
> And it was expected that we would go for more Scorpenes
> 
> If The navy feels that the damage can be mitigated ; contained and minimised
> then more Scorpenes would come in quickly ; A new contract will take a lot of time



Agree but if you have eliminated German & Japanese from P75I then the selection could be quicker.

Why pursue a potentially compromised program? It is a huge risk.. What is unknown will be unknown.

If we cap P75 program at 4 then it implies that number would increase for P75I.

Which means India could split the order between French barracuda and Russian yasen class to expedite the induction.

Also, India could lease 3 additional nuke subs from Russia that are available to ramp up the numbers.

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## PARIKRAMA

@Stephen Cohen @dadeechi 
Every item that will be build in India under defence contracts will be very different from the original OEM supplied home country's product. For us the customization and proprietary installations safeguards us completely. But what we do require it to have that aspect in multiple project levels.

Lets take an example of scorpenes. 
Delay is a blessing - No from IN POV bcz we needed to have all these inducted by 2017 and by now we should have negotiated the next set of follow on orders or a separate project for a better submarine.

Delay is a blessing - yes if you consider from strategic aspect that we have one SSBN and another one is very close as well and now we plan to have SSNs too. This is a right time to take the most advanced SSK available in the market and downstream the technology of the same to our MIC and MSMEs. With the capability built, we can utilise the same in our future SSN and SSBNs and also critically use a derivative of the technology to improve our indigenous product.

In terms of reality Scorpene is a 2000 timeline technology and contemporary tech of same timeline were U214, S80 and Amur series of smaller subs.. The Kilos and HDW are even 15-20 years older than these subs dated technology.

Now interestingly we want the next SSK of 2016 timeline and here lies the catch. The earlier ones even with improved products are no where good enough to help us with additional technology or MIC improvement to augment our black projects. Russia will never share Yasen or Project 885 technology with us. Japan and SOryu is more difficult bcz their export intentions are still not very comprehensive. Thus the technology left with which we can really make use in our project have very very limited choices. 

Unless you get USA to come onboard which is next to impossible your next choices narrows down to the following

Astute - Vanguard - Successor Class tweaks - REJECTED bcz UK wont share it 
Barracuda SSN - Triomphant SSBN -- Shortfin SSK - DCNS
An outside chance is a SSK based on Yasen but thats highly unlikely.

So the final option left is DCNS solution and we have Scorpenes already there.

and any new contract or tender will delay our plans further.

So what should we do?
The present Scorpene proprietary portion is about 1/3rd and arond 35% as far as what sources have said. SO now its a good chance we try and make it more than 50% bcz doing that gives a big capability addition to our MIC and MSME's.

With this so called data theft, we should use the opportunity and get the planned Barracuda tech forward and see how that can also flow into our MIC and MSME's so that in turn it flows to our SSBN and SSN and utilize the experience of DCNS on the same.

We should not stop our Scorpenes but now we should progressively aim at higher proprietary content and the next generation Fuel Cell AIP of theirs and also see if we can either utilize shortfin derived Scorpenes or better order Shortfin SSK directly.

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## Stephen Cohen

PARIKRAMA said:


> @Stephen Cohen @dadeechi
> Every item that will be build in India under defence contracts will be very different from the original OEM supplied home country's product. For us the customization and proprietary installations safeguards us completely. But what we do require it to have that aspect in multiple project levels.
> 
> Lets take an example of scorpenes.
> Delay is a blessing - No from IN POV bcz we needed to have all these inducted by 2017 and by now we should have negotiated the next set of follow on orders or a separate project for a better submarine.
> 
> Delay is a blessing - yes if you consider from strategic aspect that we have one SSBN and another one is very close as well and now we plan to have SSNs too. This is a right time to take the most advanced SSK available in the market and downstream the technology of the same to our MIC and MSMEs. With the capability built, we can utilise the same in our future SSN and SSBNs and also critically use a derivative of the technology to improve our indigenous product.
> 
> In terms of reality Scorpene is a 2000 timeline technology and contemporary tech of same timeline were U214, S80 and Amur series of smaller subs.. The Kilos and HDW are even 15-20 years older than these subs dated technology.
> 
> Now interestingly we want the next SSK of 2016 timeline and here lies the catch. The earlier ones even with improved products are no where good enough to help us with additional technology or MIC improvement to augment our black projects. Russia will never share Yasen or Project 885 technology with us. Japan and SOryu is more difficult bcz their export intentions are still not very comprehensive. Thus the technology left with which we can really make use in our project have very very limited choices.
> 
> Unless you get USA to come onboard which is next to impossible your next choices narrows down to the following
> 
> Astute - Vanguard - Successor Class tweaks - REJECTED bcz UK wont share it
> Barracuda SSN - Triomphant SSBN -- Shortfin SSK - DCNS
> An outside chance is a SSK based on Yasen but thats highly unlikely.
> 
> So the final option left is DCNS solution and we have Scorpenes already there.
> 
> and any new contract or tender will delay our plans further.
> 
> So what should we do?
> The present Scorpene proprietary portion is about 1/3rd and arond 35% as far as what sources have said. SO now its a good chance we try and make it more than 50% bcz doing that gives a big capability addition to our MIC and MSME's.
> 
> With this so called data theft, we should use the opportunity and get the planned Barracuda tech forward and see how that can also flow into our MIC and MSME's so that in turn it flows to our SSBN and SSN and utilize the experience of DCNS on the same.
> 
> We should not stop our Scorpenes but now we should progressively aim at higher proprietary content and the next generation Fuel Cell AIP of theirs and also see if we can either utilize shortfin derived Scorpenes or better order Shortfin SSK directly.



I believe that Japan and Germany having missed out on Australian Tender
will pursue the P 75 I more aggressively

BTW ; This leak is like the Pathankot Attack -- an EYE OPENER

All our systems and procedures ; Collabrations and JVs will need a security Audit

Starting from RAFALE

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## Spectre

Stephen Cohen said:


> I believe that Japan and Germany having missed out on Australian Tender
> will pursue the P 75 I more aggressively
> 
> BTW ; This leak is like the Pathankot Attack -- an EYE OPENER
> 
> All our systems ; procedures ; Collabrations and JVs will need a security Audit
> 
> Starting from RAFALE



Unfortunately we can only do audit on our end but when our overseas partners and vendors leak data there is not much we can do. 

Only way out of it is to curtail foreign purchases and get even more focused towards in house development.

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## Stephen Cohen

Spectre said:


> Unfortunately we can only do audit on our end but when our overseas partners and vendors leak data there is not much we can do.
> 
> Only way out of it is to curtail foreign purchases and get even more focused towards in house development.



We can do something about it ; it is not like we are helpless after paying so much 

MOD must have started sending Queries to all its suppliers for re assurance

We will have to talk about security with Dassault for the Rafale project 

The larger the project the more the chances of leaks 

This is a NEW issue for all companies ; it will lead to new tools and techniques for security of data
ie where ever security was lax 

USA has always been more careful given their History with the Chinese hackers

Europe needs to catch up

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## ashok321

*Navy chief contradicts govt: Scorpene leak is a serious concern: 










Submarine data leak being viewed 'very seriously': Navy chief Sunil Lanba
Most submarines use sonar to track other vessels



*

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## BON PLAN

dadeechi said:


> Agree but if you have eliminated German & Japanese from P75I then the selection could be quicker.
> 
> Why pursue a potentially compromised program? It is a huge risk.. What is unknown will be unknown.
> 
> If we cap P75 program at 4 then it implies that number would increase for P75I.
> 
> Which means India could split the order between French barracuda and Russian yasen class to expedite the induction.
> 
> Also, India could lease 3 additional nuke subs from Russia that are available to ramp up the numbers.


Don't worry.

If the leaks are of a small significance (seems the case), You probably will have a small compensation in form of an earlier and less costlier upgrade.

If the leaks are an avered threat for your boats, sure DCNS and Thales will offer a major upgrade (new sensor suite? new tactic battlefield management? new propeller (Barracuda style?)....) because it's the french naval industry future which is in balance.

the issue in India and Austalia and Norway and elsewhere is too important to let you down.

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## randomradio

http://indianexpress.com/article/ex...ta-leak-manohar-parrikar-indian-navy-3001106/

*Deep dive: Why Scorpene data leak does not compromise security of Project-75*
*Sushant Singh spoke to experts and submarine veterans to look at the impact of each of the 10 kinds of data breaches that The Australian newspaper reported last week.*

To coordinate next year’s Golden Jubilee celebrations of the induction of the first submarine in the Navy, more than 100 retired officers of the submarine branch started a WhatsApp group last month. This group, which includes three-star officers who have spent decades with submarines, went abuzz at midnight last Tuesday after The Australian newspaper reported that 22,400 pages of documents pertaining to India’s Scorpene submarine programme, called Project-75, had been leaked.

The veterans studied the few leaked pages — with redacted data — put out by the paper, and intense discussions followed in the group for the first three days. In the end, there was near unanimity that while such data being put out publicly was not a good thing, it did not affect Project-75 in any significant way.

Under Project-75, French company DCNS provides design and technology to public sector Mazagon Docks to make six Scorpene submarines, the first of which, INS Kalvari was put out for sea trials earlier this year. The hulls of the other five submarines have been cast, and they are scheduled to be commissioned by 2020.

Captain J S Malik, a retired submariner with 32 years of experience who served as Director of Submarine Operations in Navy Headquarters, said, “Most of this data is generic and belongs to Naval Staff Qualitative Requirements (NSQR) provided by the Navy to the French company, and ‘binding data’ for the product. It does not pertain to any specific submarine, and has limited usage for the adversary.”

But Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar and Ministry officials have repeatedly asserted that they are “prepared for the worst-case scenario”. What could be the areas of concern for the Navy?

According to Commodore A Jai Singh, a retired submariner who was associated with Project-75 preparations at Navy Headquarters at the turn of the century, “the only thing, which if leaked out from the supplier, that can really compromise the operation of our submarines is the source code of the Fire Control System. It is a top secret thing which the DCNS doesn’t even share with the company providing the weapons. The Australian hasn’t claimed that it is in the possession of the software code, and besides that, everything else is not really going to matter.”

He added, “Just the generic technical specifications are little indication of a submarine’s operational capability. The element of stealth and superiority is how a navy operates its submarines with the equipment on board and therein lie the vital elements of secrecy essential for submarine operations.”

Three top Navy sources have confirmed to The Indian Express that the documents put out so far are not the same as the ones with the Navy. These are dated versions from a period well before the signing of the contract with DCNS in 2005. Navy officials assert that “we are no longer a buyer’s Navy but a builder’s Navy. Only six navies have successfully built ballistic missile submarines, including India. There is no need to be overly concerned as we have the capability of tweaking the design, and the weapon and sensor deployment capability to mitigate any risk from information being compromised.”

The Australian has reported being in possession of 10 types of secret information which compromises the Indian programme. The Indian Express went over each of them with experts to figure out what they mean, and how they could affect the Navy.

*Stealth capabilities*

Stealth capabilities pertain mainly to the acoustic signature of a submarine, and is a function of many things, including the submarine’s self-noise levels, the propeller configuration, the speed regimes underwater, the noise generated by on-board machinery, and the acoustic damping techniques used both on the hull and within the submarine. The harmonics produced by no two submarines are the same. These spot frequencies, unlike the range given in the documents, are recorded by special equipment after a submarine goes for sea-trials, and kept in the Ship Data Book, a top secret document kept with the captain of the submarine. This data is re-recorded after every major refit, as the harmonics change. In the case of a European design like the Scorpene, there would not be much to choose between contemporary designs of a relatively similar size which would operate in the same frequency ranges.

*Frequencies at which submarines gain intelligence*

Most modern submarine Electronic Search Measures (ESM) systems operate in a frequency range of 0.2 to 40 GHz, so to learn that Scorpenes operate in a similar frequency band is no compromise. Similarly, submarines are fitted with navigational radars with commercial applications, which operate in a particular frequency range worldwide. A modern submarine rarely, if ever, transmits at sea either from its radars or its sonars, or even its communication sets. A Naval officer who commanded a submarine for six years said that he used an active sonar only thrice in his tenure, that too only to test the equipment and validate the training of his staff.

*Noise levels submarines could reach at certain speeds*

Noise levels are a function of the submarine speed and the speed of rotation of a propeller, which is recorded during sea trials and noted in the Ship Data Book. The data put out is the NSQR limits given by the Navy to the designers that it should not exceed so many decibels at various speeds.

*Diving depths, range and endurance*

Range and endurance of all submarines are in the open domain. While specific depths may not be listed in the open specifications, most submarines the world over operate in a more or less similar depth envelope. Endurance of any submarine is dependent on its maximum patrol period, which determines the quantity of fuel carried. It varies between 50 and 60 days in the case of India’s submarines.

*Magnetic, electromagnetic and infra-red data*

Every submarine is demagnetised after construction and undergoes trials at the underwater ranges at Goa. The data for even the first submarine has not been recorded so far. This data is updated even if a submarine has stayed in a dry dock for a prolonged period. Rarely has a submarine been detected by an MRASW aircraft fitted with a Magnetic Anomaly Detector. Since submarines do not transmit, they are not vulnerable to detection in the e-m spectrum.

*Specifications of the submarine’s torpedo launch system and combat system*

The Navy has not selected the torpedo for the six submarines after the contract for Black Shark torpedoes from the Italian company WASS was cancelled following the VVIP helicopter controversy. Based on the choice of weapons and sensors on board, and the operating philosophy, the combat system would be programmed by the Navy, so there would be very little to be gained from the basic characteristics of the system. The secrecy lies in their programming by the Navy.

*Speed and conditions needed for using the periscope*

Modern submarines rarely plane to periscope depth except for the minimum time required to charge their batteries. This duration is also a function of the submarine’s mission profile, as well as the tactical exploitation of the platform in the prevailing operational scenario. Knowing the speed and conditions needed for using the periscope actually discloses little or no information about what the submarine is doing or intends to do.

*Propeller’s noise specifications*

Each propeller generates its own harmonics of noise which is determined after extensive trials, while the data put out is the generic NSQR data. Even a minor chip of 2-3 mm completely changes propeller noise. The propeller generates different noise at different speeds at varying depths and varying hydrological conditions. The submarine is equipped with cavitation meters, to assess the noise level and accordingly vary its speed or depth to find the most suitable depth and speed profile to operate at.

*Radiated noise levels when the submarine surfaces*

A submarine is unlikely to surface in an operational deployment, and will do so if required, only in friendly waters. In an emergency, if a submarine has no choice but to surface, its visual presence will be easier to detect than its acoustic signature.

*Weapons data*

Weapons used in peacetime during training and during war operate on totally different frequencies. The war-shots are launched on frequency hopping mechanism, unlike peacetime firing. A veteran submariner gave the example of the only test war-shot fired by him in 2003 off the coast of Mumbai which could not be recorded by any of the half a dozen Indian ships monitoring the firing, despite knowing the exact timing and the location of the target. Moreover, the Pakistan Navy is also in possession of the same Exocet missile which these Scorpenes will use.

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## BON PLAN

Stephen Cohen said:


> USA has always been more careful given their History with the Chinese hackers
> 
> Europe needs to catch up


China stole F22 and F35 datas. It's official. Just see the J31 front part.... a kind of F35, isn't it?

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## [Bregs]

The only reassuring highlight of the future of the scorpene deal so far has been the mature and calculated response by France and India. It looks like the relations are so close,mature and comfortable that the two countries will be able to wither this storm created by this criminal leaks

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## Stephen Cohen

[Bregs] said:


> The only reassuring highlight of the future of the scorpene deal so far has been the mature and calculated response by France and India. It looks like the relations are so close,mature and comfortable that the two countries will be able to wither this storm created by this criminal leaks



We Indians really got lucky

Today if we look ; in view of these leaks
All those delays have been a HUGE blessing in disguise

We will have to make only a few changes and modifications to deal with the situation

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## randomradio

[Bregs] said:


> The only reassuring highlight of the future of the scorpene deal so far has been the mature and calculated response by France and India. It looks like the relations are so close,mature and comfortable that the two countries will be able to wither this storm created by this criminal leaks





BON PLAN said:


> Don't worry.
> 
> If the leaks are of a small significance (seems the case), You probably will have a small compensation in form of an earlier and less costlier upgrade.
> 
> If the leaks are an avered threat for your boats, sure DCNS and Thales will offer a major upgrade (new sensor suite? new tactic battlefield management? new propeller (Barracuda style?)....) because it's the french naval industry future which is in balance.
> 
> the issue in India and Austalia and Norway and elsewhere is too important to let you down.



After everything is said and done, this leak will only have served to make Indian-French ties stronger and better.

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## PARIKRAMA

@Vergennes @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN @Abingdonboy @anant_s @Ankit Kumar 002 @hellfire

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## Hellfire

I think like @[Bregs] said ... the maturity by the two nations in light of this issue is truly commendable.That is a different matter that neither could do anything about it.

Having said that, the brassracks .... like @BON PLAN said, depending on extent of damage, upgrades and modifications will be carried out.

Now time for baniyagiri to start

@BON PLAN baniyagiri will be acting like a merchant with associated haggling



[Bregs] said:


> The only reassuring highlight of the future of the scorpene deal so far has been the mature and calculated response by France and India. It looks like the relations are so close,mature and comfortable that the two countries will be able to wither this storm created by this criminal leaks




Cant tag you. Why such a name???

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## [Bregs]

hellfire said:


> I think like @[Bregs] said ... the maturity by the two nations in light of this issue is truly commendable.That is a different matter that neither could do anything about it.
> 
> Having said that, the brassracks .... like @BON PLAN said, depending on extent of damage, upgrades and modifications will be carried out.
> 
> Now time for baniyagiri to start
> 
> @BON PLAN baniyagiri will be acting like a merchant with associated haggling
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cant tag you. Why such a name???




so far so good, who leaked for what motives, to damage which country most is still not clear but the explosives situation it wanted to create might not happen

Hmm i will change my user name soon ,

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## dadeechi

BON PLAN said:


> Don't worry.
> 
> If the leaks are of a small significance (seems the case), You probably will have a small compensation in form of an earlier and less costlier upgrade.
> 
> If the leaks are an avered threat for your boats, sure DCNS and Thales will offer a major upgrade (new sensor suite? new tactic battlefield management? new propeller (Barracuda style?)....) because it's the french naval industry future which is in balance.
> 
> the issue in India and Austalia and Norway and elsewhere is too important to let you down.



Indians do value France as a strategic defense partner. I am pretty sure India and France would identify and implement the changes to mitigate the known risks. My concern was about the unknowns.

Unless India & France could get detailed understanding of the full scope of the leaks there would always be a concern...

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## PARIKRAMA

*No cause for worry*
By Vice Admiral R N Ganesh (rtd)
*SCORPENE security breach*

The recent expose in an Australian newspaper of restricted data about the French company DCNS, designer and builder of the Scorpene class submarine under construction at Mazagon Dock Ltd, Mumbai, caused consternation in India. Undoubtedly, it was a major breach in information security. *Whether or not the nature of classified data revealed adversely impacts the operational effectiveness of the Scorpene as the mainstay of the Indian Navy’s (IN) submarine force, is the issue. *

*Typically, the overwhelming majority of all documentation which pertains to a submarine is technical and comprises operational, maintenance and repair instructions, which may be relevant to rival commercial entities – but minimal use for an adversary at sea. The frequent reference to the number of pages that have been “leaked” should be seen in this background.*

*The state of the art in various aspects of submarine technology such as sensors, weapons, control systems, propulsion and power generation is known to those in the game, whether naval or shipbuilding industry. Defence industry publications especially, Jane’s Fighting Ships, Aircraft, Weapon Systems or similar ones are all exemplars of this and publish surprisingly authentic data. Generic data and performance capabilities are known or can be assessed in broad terms. The assumption that more specific details will totally tilt the balance in the adversary’s favour is, thus, highly debatable.*

*In all likelihood, a former DCNS employee with commercial motives shared the documentation to embarrass the company. Given that the data was written even before the submarine was built, this content must be considered largely indicative and would be subject to valid-ation by extensive tests and trials at sea. *

*The leaked information could be useful to two kinds of entities.* *Firstly, rival submarine manufacturers who offer a competitive product might desire such leaked information. Secondly, it could also interest other states for which our military capabilities are a subject of surveillance and analysis.*

*A major factor that differentiates submarines from other war-fighting platforms is that the submarine relies entirely on passive means of detection and identification and makes no electronic or sonic transmissions throughout its operational time at sea, except with great deliberation and under tightly controlled conditions. This method of operation drastically minimises the impact of any interceptions that may be made of submarine emissions, and neutralises any advantage the adversary may gain by knowledge of its sensor operating characteristics. *

Today, even conventional diesel-electric submarines that fighting navies operate, remain submerged throughout their sea patrols, and their infrequent radio communication is made from under water through buoyant radio antennae, which obviates the need for the vessel to come near the surface.

*There appears to be an impression that if parameters such as the sonar frequencies of the submarine are divulged its stealth and surveillance capabilities are neutralised. This is far from the reality – submarine sonars passively monitor the entire spectrum of underwater noise generated by other ships, which the ships can do little to prevent. *

Even if they did have prior knowledge of the frequencies being monitored by the submarine, they can in no way reduce their noise signatures, nor can they affect the submarine’s effectiveness as an intelligence gatherer. This applies equally to all forms of surveillance – whether acoustic or electromagnetic – that the submarine carries out.

*The most vital operational data about a submarine are the fields of energy of various types that it unavoidably generates in operation. These energy fields can be mapped to form the submarine’s signatures. Thus, the submarine has a noise (acoustic) signature, a heat or infra-red signature, an electromagnetic signature and a magnetic signature. *

*Combination of these signatures*
*Obviously, such data cannot exist in the manufacturer’s documents as it is compiled by a navy through extensive tests and trials at sea after the submarine becomes operational. It is the combination of these “signatures” that finally determines the ability to detect and identify the submarine. Thereafter, this closely guarded information is accessible to only a few officers – even within a navy. *

*Knowledge of frequencies of the submarine’s radiated noise as reported in the present case will not simply lay it open to detection and attack, as appears to be the conclusion in some writings. It is of little benefit to an enemy warship which has first to detect the submarine’s radiated noise. *

*Therein lies the basic challenge; the warship’s detection equipment can detect and analyse radiations within a broad spectrum, but the submarine will detect the warship much earlier, at several times the distance, because of its innate quietness (lower acoustic signature) compared to the warship.*

*The adversary requires actionable information related to a submarine’s manoeuvres and any indication to launch weapons. As far as a submarine’s weapon control and other systems are concerned, these are internal operations of the vessel to manage its fire control system, machinery, manoeuvre systems, and so on. They do not enter the adversary’s information system or impact his engagement, and are of little relevance or interest to him. *

*Whatever the latest technology advances may be, one fact should never be lost sight of: it is not technology alone but knowledge, professionalism, dedication and discipline that will spell success in any battle. Fortunately, the IN’s submarine arm is endowed with all these qualities and, therefore, the nation need not have to worry on this count.*

*(The writer is former Director-General, Nuclear Submarines project and Director, Asia Centre, Bengaluru)

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/567438/no-cause-worry.html

+++*
Got here the former Vice Admiral here.. His credentials are





+++
tagging all

https://defence.pk/members/bregs.148509/
@Abingdonboy @anant_s @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @Vergennes @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @MilSpec @Koovie @Echo_419 @Dash @hellfire @ito @SR-91 @AMCA @DesiGuy1403 @ranjeet @hellfire @fsayed @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Sergi @Water Car Engineer @dadeechi @kurup @Rain Man @kaykay @Joe Shearer @Tshering22 @Dandpatta @danger007 @Didact @Soumitra @SrNair @TejasMk3@jbgt90 @ranjeet @4GTejasBVR @The_Showstopper @guest11 @egodoc222 @Nilgiri @SarthakGanguly @Omega007 @GURU DUTT @HariPrasad @JanjaWeed @litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular @Spectre@litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular@Ryuzaki @CorporateAffairs @GR!FF!N @migflug @Levina@SvenSvensonov @-xXx- @Perpendicular @proud_indian @Mustang06 @Param @Local_Legend @Ali Zadi @hellfire @egodoc222 @CorporateAffairs @Major Shaitan Singh @jha @SmilingBuddha @#hydra# @danish_vij @[Bregs] @Skillrex @Hephaestus @SR-91 @Techy @litefire @R!CK @zebra7 @dev_moh @DesiGuy1403 @itachii @nik141993 @Marxist @Glorino @noksss @jbgt90 @Skull and Bones @Kraitcorp @Crixus @waz @WAJsal @Oscar @AugenBlick @Star Wars @GuardianRED @arp2041 @Aero @The Eagle @PaklovesTurkiye @others

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## PARIKRAMA

and the new best friends communicated to find this













But Vishnu forgot to add the main reason he himself gave in his tweets (posted in #670).............

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## GuardianRED

PARIKRAMA said:


> and the new best friends communicated to find this
> View attachment 330047
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 330046
> 
> 
> But Vishnu forgot to add the main reason he himself gave in his tweets (posted in #670).............

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## The Eagle

PARIKRAMA said:


> *No cause for worry*
> By Vice Admiral R N Ganesh (rtd)
> *SCORPENE security breach*
> 
> The recent expose in an Australian newspaper of restricted data about the French company DCNS, designer and builder of the Scorpene class submarine under construction at Mazagon Dock Ltd, Mumbai, caused consternation in India. Undoubtedly, it was a major breach in information security. *Whether or not the nature of classified data revealed adversely impacts the operational effectiveness of the Scorpene as the mainstay of the Indian Navy’s (IN) submarine force, is the issue. *
> 
> *Typically, the overwhelming majority of all documentation which pertains to a submarine is technical and comprises operational, maintenance and repair instructions, which may be relevant to rival commercial entities – but minimal use for an adversary at sea. The frequent reference to the number of pages that have been “leaked” should be seen in this background.*
> 
> *The state of the art in various aspects of submarine technology such as sensors, weapons, control systems, propulsion and power generation is known to those in the game, whether naval or shipbuilding industry. Defence industry publications especially, Jane’s Fighting Ships, Aircraft, Weapon Systems or similar ones are all exemplars of this and publish surprisingly authentic data. Generic data and performance capabilities are known or can be assessed in broad terms. The assumption that more specific details will totally tilt the balance in the adversary’s favour is, thus, highly debatable.*
> 
> *In all likelihood, a former DCNS employee with commercial motives shared the documentation to embarrass the company. Given that the data was written even before the submarine was built, this content must be considered largely indicative and would be subject to valid-ation by extensive tests and trials at sea. *
> 
> *The leaked information could be useful to two kinds of entities.* *Firstly, rival submarine manufacturers who offer a competitive product might desire such leaked information. Secondly, it could also interest other states for which our military capabilities are a subject of surveillance and analysis.*
> 
> *A major factor that differentiates submarines from other war-fighting platforms is that the submarine relies entirely on passive means of detection and identification and makes no electronic or sonic transmissions throughout its operational time at sea, except with great deliberation and under tightly controlled conditions. This method of operation drastically minimises the impact of any interceptions that may be made of submarine emissions, and neutralises any advantage the adversary may gain by knowledge of its sensor operating characteristics. *
> 
> Today, even conventional diesel-electric submarines that fighting navies operate, remain submerged throughout their sea patrols, and their infrequent radio communication is made from under water through buoyant radio antennae, which obviates the need for the vessel to come near the surface.
> 
> *There appears to be an impression that if parameters such as the sonar frequencies of the submarine are divulged its stealth and surveillance capabilities are neutralised. This is far from the reality – submarine sonars passively monitor the entire spectrum of underwater noise generated by other ships, which the ships can do little to prevent. *
> 
> Even if they did have prior knowledge of the frequencies being monitored by the submarine, they can in no way reduce their noise signatures, nor can they affect the submarine’s effectiveness as an intelligence gatherer. This applies equally to all forms of surveillance – whether acoustic or electromagnetic – that the submarine carries out.
> 
> *The most vital operational data about a submarine are the fields of energy of various types that it unavoidably generates in operation. These energy fields can be mapped to form the submarine’s signatures. Thus, the submarine has a noise (acoustic) signature, a heat or infra-red signature, an electromagnetic signature and a magnetic signature. *
> 
> *Combination of these signatures*
> *Obviously, such data cannot exist in the manufacturer’s documents as it is compiled by a navy through extensive tests and trials at sea after the submarine becomes operational. It is the combination of these “signatures” that finally determines the ability to detect and identify the submarine. Thereafter, this closely guarded information is accessible to only a few officers – even within a navy. *
> 
> *Knowledge of frequencies of the submarine’s radiated noise as reported in the present case will not simply lay it open to detection and attack, as appears to be the conclusion in some writings. It is of little benefit to an enemy warship which has first to detect the submarine’s radiated noise. *
> 
> *Therein lies the basic challenge; the warship’s detection equipment can detect and analyse radiations within a broad spectrum, but the submarine will detect the warship much earlier, at several times the distance, because of its innate quietness (lower acoustic signature) compared to the warship.*
> 
> *The adversary requires actionable information related to a submarine’s manoeuvres and any indication to launch weapons. As far as a submarine’s weapon control and other systems are concerned, these are internal operations of the vessel to manage its fire control system, machinery, manoeuvre systems, and so on. They do not enter the adversary’s information system or impact his engagement, and are of little relevance or interest to him. *
> 
> *Whatever the latest technology advances may be, one fact should never be lost sight of: it is not technology alone but knowledge, professionalism, dedication and discipline that will spell success in any battle. Fortunately, the IN’s submarine arm is endowed with all these qualities and, therefore, the nation need not have to worry on this count.*
> 
> *(The writer is former Director-General, Nuclear Submarines project and Director, Asia Centre, Bengaluru)
> 
> http://www.deccanherald.com/content/567438/no-cause-worry.html
> 
> +++*
> Got here the former Vice Admiral here.. His credentials are
> View attachment 330034
> 
> 
> +++
> tagging all
> 
> https://defence.pk/members/bregs.148509/
> @Abingdonboy @anant_s @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @Vergennes @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @MilSpec @Koovie @Echo_419 @Dash @hellfire @ito @SR-91 @AMCA @DesiGuy1403 @ranjeet @hellfire @fsayed @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Sergi @Water Car Engineer @dadeechi @kurup @Rain Man @kaykay @Joe Shearer @Tshering22 @Dandpatta @danger007 @Didact @Soumitra @SrNair @TejasMk3@jbgt90 @ranjeet @4GTejasBVR @The_Showstopper @guest11 @egodoc222 @Nilgiri @SarthakGanguly @Omega007 @GURU DUTT @HariPrasad @JanjaWeed @litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular @Spectre@litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular@Ryuzaki @CorporateAffairs @GR!FF!N @migflug @Levina@SvenSvensonov @-xXx- @Perpendicular @proud_indian @Mustang06 @Param @Local_Legend @Ali Zadi @hellfire @egodoc222 @CorporateAffairs @Major Shaitan Singh @jha @SmilingBuddha @#hydra# @danish_vij @[Bregs] @Skillrex @Hephaestus @SR-91 @Techy @litefire @R!CK @zebra7 @dev_moh @DesiGuy1403 @itachii @nik141993 @Marxist @Glorino @noksss @jbgt90 @Skull and Bones @Kraitcorp @Crixus @waz @WAJsal @Oscar @AugenBlick @Star Wars @GuardianRED @arp2041 @Aero @The Eagle @PaklovesTurkiye @others



@PARIKRAMA why does it give a feeling like some played the french hard for compensation in lieu of other benefits for this and other platform as well. I don't have a solid ground here to prove the point but instinct says, it is like hey lets give them a worry then share the observation then ask for something in return, as them agrees, play the best out of it. I know for the moment, it feels like a conspiracy theory, but things indicates that what on earth would make someone that interesting and credible to share the data which is already, back then, was ordered to be removed/erased and is of no significance but sort of raw material that wouldn't affect the operator strategy and secrets. 

As it has been noticed, lightly expressed by French, for the compensation type words and things, I feel like that the leak itself may prove to be a blessing for India for Sub-Upgrades without any additional charges as well as the Rafale discounts however, still my opinion and nothing officials but just a thought. 

The Australian obviously cannot do much about more leaks as DCNS has approached right platform and Court is now involved and to the some extent it blinks like, indeed there is something more important that DCNS don't want it to be publicized or shared being sensitive and pushing hard otherwise, would have to bear way more than what earned till now by on-going project in India and possibly loss of Australian contract. 

As I said before, it could be a fight between competitors as well that being jealous, made an attempt to damage the reputation of DCNS and regain the market influence though a dirty business and nothing is impossible. Only the up-coming days and any upgrade with respect to current tech in these Sub may prove the worth of leaked data and who knows that data hasn't traveled the world yet as other than countries, there are parties/people that earn money only by such ways/helping the governments. Lets wait and see.

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## GuardianRED

The Eagle said:


> @PARIKRAMA why does it give a feeling like some played the french hard for compensation in lieu of other benefits for this and other platform as well. I don't have a solid ground here to prove the point but instinct says, it is like hey lets give them a worry then share the observation then ask for something in return, as them agrees, play the best out of it. I know for the moment, it feels like a conspiracy theory, but things indicates that what on earth would make someone that interesting and credible to share the data which is already, back then, was ordered to be removed/erased and is of no significance but sort of raw material that wouldn't affect the operator strategy and secrets.
> 
> As it has been noticed, lightly expressed by French, for the compensation type words and things, I feel like that the leak itself may prove to be a blessing for India for Sub-Upgrades without any additional charges as well as the Rafale discounts however, still my opinion and nothing officials but just a thought.
> 
> The Australian obviously cannot do much about more leaks as DCNS has approached right platform and Court is now involved and to the some extent it blinks like, indeed there is something more important that DCNS don't want it to be publicized or shared being sensitive and pushing hard otherwise, would have to bear way more than what earned till now by on-going project in India and possibly loss of Australian contract.
> 
> As I said before, it could be a fight between competitors as well that being jealous, made an attempt to damage the reputation of DCNS and regain the market influence though a dirty business and nothing is impossible. Only the up-coming days and any upgrade with respect to current tech in these Sub may prove the worth of leaked data and who knows that data hasn't traveled the world yet as other than countries, there are parties/people that earn money only by such ways/helping the governments. Lets wait and see.


Possible 

They then have made the Aussie Guy a good ScapeGoat - if DCNS presses on with Charges and would make an example of him!

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## The Eagle

GuardianRED said:


> Possible
> 
> They then have made the Aussie Guy a good ScapeGoat - if DCNS presses on with Charges and would make an example of him!



Well hard press by DCNS would also jeopardize many of itself interests so most probably it would be adopt a legal way to make sure B party don't escape and in the mean time make him realize to seize the data and not to escalate the situation further otherwise, the Journo have techniques as well and they know how the handle such situations as it has been their life by revealing the secrets and facing the courts. 

I am sure, DCNS is just cooling the situation and don't want further heat as it would already be evaluating the damage and would be preparing for any further demands of its client (s) for different tech to avoid or counter the leak. 

If the game is played as I just felt, everyone would have viewed the possibilities of his/her sacrificial so don't expect much here of that example thing. If DCNS press stronger on that guy, the guy spell the beans, the master of conspiracy and this game is revealed and say goodbye to the relations, tech, machines etc so the case would be closed in the best interest of the business and money. Journos knows many ways and tricks that how to escape/avoid such situation.

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## PARIKRAMA

Well This above figure came to my mailbox as part of a presentation. Interestingly its showing somethings which anyone who has followed the scorpene program or even looked in this thread can actually understand ..

@The Eagle - this might support your assertions. 


The Indian program capability upgrades were programmed to come from 3rd submarine, now for sure its preponed to second one and first one will see it upgraded during the course of major refits (which will be lot more) or may be an early MLU as it will be used more to test such capability systems.

I always said that DCNS was involved in multiple things . IF we keep churning new subs from DCNS products from the line in MDL (both line 1 and 2) , this will first target

The increase in local proprietary content which stands at 35% atm for the first submarine Kalavari.
Ability to keep building a highly customizable version of the product and much different from original plain vanilla scorpenes operated by other navies
The other line utilsing the second product offering from DCNS can cross leverage and thus bring the capability upgrade faster to 1st line product.
The 2nd line product clearly starts at capability of proprietary content at 35% instead of another shipyard building the whole MIC system from the scratch.
Modular construction keeps the production time limited with parallel construction raising numbers in a decade.
Skill set learned and paid for is not lost by continuously churning improved products from multiple lines with upgrades.
_Side note - from 2014 onwards DCNS has been working on a NG -SSBN product (much beyond Terrible from Triomphant class). This is different from the Barracuda tech it has developed so far. Expected that some of the new NG tech will flow into Toruville (third) and majority from Dupetit (fourth one) Barracuda SSN that France is going to build over time._


https://defence.pk/members/bregs.148509/ @Abingdonboy @Picdelamirand-oil @Vergennes @BON PLAN @GuardianRED @Stephen Cohen @anant_s @hellfire @randomradio @Spectre @dadeechi @MilSpec @SpArK @Ankit Kumar 002 @others

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## Gregor Clegane

Deep dive: Why Scorpene data leak does not compromise security of Project-75.

Sushant Singh spoke to experts and submarine veterans to look at the impact of each of the 10 kinds of data breaches that The Australian newspaper reported last week.
WRITTEN BY SUSHANT SINGH |
Published On:August 29, 2016 1:46 Am

To coordinate next year’s Golden Jubilee celebrations of the induction of the first submarine in the Navy, more than 100 retired officers of the submarine branch started a WhatsApp group last month. This group, which includes three-star officers who have spent decades with submarines, went abuzz at midnight last Tuesday after The Australian newspaper reported that 22,400 pages of documents pertaining to India’s Scorpene submarine programme, called Project-75, had been leaked.
The veterans studied the few leaked pages — with redacted data — put out by the paper, and intense discussions followed in the group for the first three days. In the end, there was near unanimity that while such data being put out publicly was not a good thing, it did not affect Project-75 in any significant way.
Under Project-75, French company DCNS provides design and technology to public sector Mazagon Docks to make six Scorpene submarines, the first of which, INS Kalvari was put out for sea trials earlier this year. The hulls of the other five submarines have been cast, and they are scheduled to be commissioned by 2020.
Captain J S Malik, a retired submariner with 32 years of experience who served as Director of Submarine Operations in Navy Headquarters, said, “Most of this data is generic and belongs to Naval Staff Qualitative Requirements (NSQR) provided by the Navy to the French company, and ‘binding data’ for the product. It does not pertain to any specific submarine, and has limited usage for the adversary.”
But Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar and Ministry officials have repeatedly asserted that they are “prepared for the worst-case scenario”. What could be the areas of concern for the Navy?

According to Commodore A Jai Singh, a retired submariner who was associated with Project-75 preparations at Navy Headquarters at the turn of the century, “the only thing, which if leaked out from the supplier, that can really compromise the operation of our submarines is the source code of the Fire Control System. It is a top secret thing which the DCNS doesn’t even share with the company providing the weapons. The Australian hasn’t claimed that it is in the possession of the software code, and besides that, everything else is not really going to matter.”
He added, “Just the generic technical specifications are little indication of a submarine’s operational capability. The element of stealth and superiority is how a navy operates its submarines with the equipment on board and therein lie the vital elements of secrecy essential for submarine operations.”
Three top Navy sources have confirmed to The Indian Express that the documents put out so far are not the same as the ones with the Navy. These are dated versions from a period well before the signing of the contract with DCNS in 2005. Navy officials assert that “we are no longer a buyer’s Navy but a builder’s Navy. Only six navies have successfully built ballistic missile submarines, including India. There is no need to be overly concerned as we have the capability of tweaking the design, and the weapon and sensor deployment capability to mitigate any risk from information being compromised.”
The Australian has reported being in possession of 10 types of secret information which compromises the Indian programme. The Indian Express went over each of them with experts to figure out what they mean, and how they could affect the Navy.
Stealth capabilities
Stealth capabilities pertain mainly to the acoustic signature of a submarine, and is a function of many things, including the submarine’s self-noise levels, the propeller configuration, the speed regimes underwater, the noise generated by on-board machinery, and the acoustic damping techniques used both on the hull and within the submarine. The harmonics produced by no two submarines are the same. These spot frequencies, unlike the range given in the documents, are recorded by special equipment after a submarine goes for sea-trials, and kept in the Ship Data Book, a top secret document kept with the captain of the submarine. This data is re-recorded after every major refit, as the harmonics change. In the case of a European design like the Scorpene, there would not be much to choose between contemporary designs of a relatively similar size which would operate in the same frequency ranges.
Frequencies at which submarines gain intelligence
Most modern submarine Electronic Search Measures (ESM) systems operate in a frequency range of 0.2 to 40 GHz, so to learn that Scorpenes operate in a similar frequency band is no compromise. Similarly, submarines are fitted with navigational radars with commercial applications, which operate in a particular frequency range worldwide. A modern submarine rarely, if ever, transmits at sea either from its radars or its sonars, or even its communication sets. A Naval officer who commanded a submarine for six years said that he used an active sonar only thrice in his tenure, that too only to test the equipment and validate the training of his staff.
Noise levels submarines could reach at certain speeds
Noise levels are a function of the submarine speed and the speed of rotation of a propeller, which is recorded during sea trials and noted in the Ship Data Book. The data put out is the NSQR limits given by the Navy to the designers that it should not exceed so many decibels at various speeds.
Diving depths, range and endurance
Range and endurance of all submarines are in the open domain. While specific depths may not be listed in the open specifications, most submarines the world over operate in a more or less similar depth envelope. Endurance of any submarine is dependent on its maximum patrol period, which determines the quantity of fuel carried. It varies between 50 and 60 days in the case of India’s submarines.
Magnetic, electromagnetic and infra-red data
Every submarine is demagnetised after construction and undergoes trials at the underwater ranges at Goa. The data for even the first submarine has not been recorded so far. This data is updated even if a submarine has stayed in a dry dock for a prolonged period. Rarely has a submarine been detected by an MRASW aircraft fitted with a Magnetic Anomaly Detector. Since submarines do not transmit, they are not vulnerable to detection in the e-m spectrum.
Specifications of the submarine’s torpedo launch system and combat system
The Navy has not selected the torpedo for the six submarines after the contract for Black Shark torpedoes from the Italian company WASS was cancelled following the VVIP helicopter controversy. Based on the choice of weapons and sensors on board, and the operating philosophy, the combat system would be programmed by the Navy, so there would be very little to be gained from the basic characteristics of the system. The secrecy lies in their programming by the Navy.
Speed and conditions needed for using the periscope
Modern submarines rarely plane to periscope depth except for the minimum time required to charge their batteries. This duration is also a function of the submarine’s mission profile, as well as the tactical exploitation of the platform in the prevailing operational scenario. Knowing the speed and conditions needed for using the periscope actually discloses little or no information about what the submarine is doing or intends to do.
Propeller’s noise specifications
Each propeller generates its own harmonics of noise which is determined after extensive trials, while the data put out is the generic NSQR data. Even a minor chip of 2-3 mm completely changes propeller noise. The propeller generates different noise at different speeds at varying depths and varying hydrological conditions. The submarine is equipped with cavitation meters, to assess the noise level and accordingly vary its speed or depth to find the most suitable depth and speed profile to operate at.
Radiated noise levels when the submarine surfaces
A submarine is unlikely to surface in an operational deployment, and will do so if required, only in friendly waters. In an emergency, if a submarine has no choice but to surface, its visual presence will be easier to detect than its acoustic signature.
Weapons data
Weapons used in peacetime during training and during war operate on totally different frequencies. The war-shots are launched on frequency hopping mechanism, unlike peacetime firing. A veteran submariner gave the example of the only test war-shot fired by him in 2003 off the coast of Mumbai which could not be recorded by any of the half a dozen Indian ships monitoring the firing, despite knowing the exact timing and the location of the target. Moreover, the Pakistan Navy is also in possession of the same Exocet missile which these Scorpenes will use.

http://indianexpress.com/article/ex...ta-leak-manohar-parrikar-indian-navy-3001106/

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## Gregor Clegane

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@Blue Marlin @jhungary @AugenBlick @Star Wars @GuardianRED @arp2041 @Aero
@Penguin @PARIKRAMA @others

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## PARIKRAMA

Posted in the main thread already
https://defence.pk/threads/sensitiv...submarines-leaked.445677/page-42#post-8627227

and 
https://defence.pk/threads/sensitiv...submarines-leaked.445677/page-45#post-8629140

@waz @WAJsal 

Kindly merge this thread with the main thread
https://defence.pk/threads/sensitive-data-of-indian-navy’s-scorpene-class-submarines-leaked.445677/

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## PARIKRAMA

*Malaysian military data secure, says defense chief*
The Star/ANN | Kuala Lumpur 
Mon, August 29 2016 | 12:21 pm




Malaysian Defense Minister Hishammuddin Hussein speaking at a plenary session on "Managing Military Competition in Asia" at the 15th Shangri-La Dialogue at Shangri-La Hotel, Singapore, on June 4, 2016.(EPA via The Straits Times/-)
The Malaysian Defense Ministry had already beefed up its cyber defense capabilities as a massive leak of secret data from a French submarine supplier was reported.

Minister Hishammuddin Hussein said proactive measures were put in place last year to prevent any attempt to hack classified military data and information on assets.

*“We are working closely with some countries so that confidential information involving our military assets and other information is secured,” he told reporters after opening the Setiawangsa Umno division meeting Sunday.*

Last week, The Australian newspaper revealed some sensitive details relating to submarines built by French naval contractor DCNS.

Some 22,400 leaked pages of data, which the daily said it had seen, detailed the combat capability of Scorpene-class submarines designed for the Indian navy, variants of which are used by Malaysia and Chile.

The report detailed the submarine’s sensors and its communications and navigation systems, as well as torpedo launch system.

The Malaysian navy has two Scorpene-class submarines in its fleet – the KD Tunku Abdul Rahman and KD Tun Abdul Razak.

*Hishammuddin said there were several unsuccessful attempts to hack the country’s secret military information.*

*“There were attempts but not many.*

*“We are definitely taking proactive measures,” he said.*

If needed, the cyber defense system can be extended to other ministries with sensitive information, he added.


http://www.thejakartapost.com/seasi...-military-data-secure-says-defense-chief.html

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## SQ8

The IN is in damage control mode, and the fact remains that regardless of how much was compromised; there was a mole and there may many more.

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## randomradio

Oscar said:


> The IN is in damage control mode, and the fact remains that regardless of how much was compromised; there was a mole and there may many more.



It was a disgruntled subcontractor who released docs because he was angry or for financial gain or the subcontractor accidentally released the information after he lost control over it.

Some operational aspects of the data was leaked. The weapons and sensor data were not leaked because even the IN doesn't have it right now.

The stuff in the documents were very generic, like how we say a fighter radar works between 8 and 12GHz, stuff like that. A lot of the data was already open source.

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## SQ8

randomradio said:


> It was a disgruntled subcontractor who released docs because he was angry or for financial gain or the subcontractor accidentally released the information after he lost control over it.
> 
> Some operational aspects of the data was leaked. The weapons and sensor data were not leaked because even the IN doesn't have it right now.
> 
> The stuff in the documents were very generic, like how we say a fighter radar works between 8 and 12GHz, stuff like that. A lot of the data was already open source.


Like I said, damage control.


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## GuardianRED

Oscar said:


> Like I said, damage control.


Better word is CONTAINMENT and a blessing in disguise


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## Gregor Clegane

Oscar said:


> Like I said, damage control.


Well you are there was a mole, but he was FRenchman based in Paris and was working for DCNS.
So it's France's fault and their duty to catch him and others


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## SQ8

Gregor Clegane said:


> Well you are there was a mole, but he was FRenchman based in Paris and was working for DCNS.
> So it's France's fault and their duty to catch him and others


For DCNS it is a loss for business, for the IN it is a national security issue no matter how small.



PARIKRAMA said:


> *operational, maintenance and repair instructions*


While the Admiral is qualified beyond a doubt to be the authority in this matter. I believe he is sugar coating what is information pertinent to any adversary when it comes to knowing deployment timeframes, maintenance timeframes and the ability of the sub to survive at sea if damaged. 

There are not things easily ignored.

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## Stephen Cohen

Oscar said:


> For DCNS it is a loss for business, for the IN it is a national security issue no matter how small.
> 
> 
> While the Admiral is qualified beyond a doubt to be the authority in this matter. I believe he is sugar coating what is information pertinent to any adversary when it comes to knowing deployment timeframes, maintenance timeframes and the ability of the sub to survive at sea if damaged.
> 
> There are not things easily ignored.



Ironically it is the Huge delays that have saved us

We will need only a few changes ; upgrades or modifications in the first submarine
to deal with the data leaks

The Other Five are totally safe

This leak is an Eye opener for all of India's current and future deals and contracts 

We make complex deals with our suppliers like Offsets ; TOT ; domestic manufacturing 

Hence the probability of leaks is more 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
@PARIKRAMA 

Hello Sir did you read the explanation given by Prasun Sengupta



It seems most are alarmed about the nature of the compromised data that includes propulsion and cavitation data, acoustics at ultra-slow speed, combat system acoustics, drive turbine sound profile, shifting sonar profile during rapid dive, frequencies at snorkling and shallow depth, acoustic dynamics shift between shallow stationary float and snorkeling depth.

In the real world, all such data are programmable, i.e. only after conducting exhaustive hydo-acoustic surveys through 2 rounds of extensive sea-trials can accurate figures be gauged & they in turn are used for deriving 2 types of acoustic signatures through computer modelling: the distinctive signature & the manipulated signature. Only after this does the process of designing customer-specific acoustic rubber tiles begin. This process is known as signature management. Following this, the SSK;s lead boat goes out to sea for sea-trials during which the definitive database of the SSK’s hydro-acoustic data is generated. This then gets programmed into the servers of both the CMS & the integrated platform management system (IPMS).

Thus, based on the above explanation in layman’s terms, it is 100% guaranteed that the specs/performance parameters outlined in the PDF files disclosed by THE AUSTRALIAN newspaper pertain to the CM-2000 SSK MINUS its coating of acoustic rubber tiles & therefore poses no risk or threat to any CM-2000 Scorpene SSK of the IN. In fact, I had a conversation during DEFEXPO 2016 with the Indian OEM that makes such tiles & I was told that the IN will not place orders for such tiles unless & until the structural integrity & hydro-acoustic database of the 1st MDL-built Scorpene has been established/generated through the 1st round of sea-trials.

*Only after this will the customisation of Scorpene-specific rubber tiles & installation of additional vibration-isolators will commence & the 2nd round of sea-trials will commence & based on the results obtained, the databases of the CMS & IPMS will be further updated & refined. These final figures will be totally different from what’s today in the public domain.*

So, it’s high time all the 'desi’ commentators stoped running amock like headless chicken, & instead they ought to spend more time going into the detail before reaching sound, logical conclusions.

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## PARIKRAMA

Oscar said:


> For DCNS it is a loss for business, for the IN it is a national security issue no matter how small.
> 
> 
> While the Admiral is qualified beyond a doubt to be the authority in this matter. I believe he is sugar coating what is information pertinent to any adversary when it comes to knowing deployment timeframes, maintenance timeframes and the ability of the sub to survive at sea if damaged.
> 
> There are not things easily ignored.



I doubt that is unknown to already the adversaries. Every country tries to know what they are buying technically and especially what their opponents have in their arsenal. An adversary via their friends can always get data of RFIs or tenders clandestinely.

Judging by the logic of what you are saying or say downplaying aspect, it holds true bcz Indian media goes bonkers without understanding anything really. But he is not sugar coating much ... India and say for example China both operates kilos.. in essence if what all mass media kept on saying and what say you believe is an effort to downplay then surely kilos are as good as a white elephant to both sides. If I extend the same logic then the new subs Pakistan ordered are also heavily influenced by kilo design. So are they white elephants to anyone?

What we must not forget is the basic processing abilities in the backend has advanced a lot over last 25 years so this enables us to have a far better system in terms of response, detection ability and overall energy management in indian scorpenes as compared to earlier ones made in Chilean Navy ot previous generation agosta sub with major refits. The same will distinguish the new kilos 636 or kilo inspired subs from what is operated by India or with major MLU refit ones.




Stephen Cohen said:


> Ironically it is the Huge delays that have saved us
> 
> We will need only a few changes ; upgrades or modifications in the first submarine
> to deal with the data leaks
> 
> The Other Five are totally safe
> 
> This leak is an Eye opener for all of India's current and future deals and contracts
> 
> We make complex deals with our suppliers like Offsets ; TOT ; domestic manufacturing
> 
> Hence the probability of leaks is more
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> @PARIKRAMA
> 
> Hello Sir did you read the explanation given by Prasun Sengupta
> 
> 
> 
> It seems most are alarmed about the nature of the compromised data that includes propulsion and cavitation data, acoustics at ultra-slow speed, combat system acoustics, drive turbine sound profile, shifting sonar profile during rapid dive, frequencies at snorkling and shallow depth, acoustic dynamics shift between shallow stationary float and snorkeling depth.
> 
> In the real world, all such data are programmable, i.e. only after conducting exhaustive hydo-acoustic surveys through 2 rounds of extensive sea-trials can accurate figures be gauged & they in turn are used for deriving 2 types of acoustic signatures through computer modelling: the distinctive signature & the manipulated signature. Only after this does the process of designing customer-specific acoustic rubber tiles begin. This process is known as signature management. Following this, the SSK;s lead boat goes out to sea for sea-trials during which the definitive database of the SSK’s hydro-acoustic data is generated. This then gets programmed into the servers of both the CMS & the integrated platform management system (IPMS).
> 
> Thus, based on the above explanation in layman’s terms, it is 100% guaranteed that the specs/performance parameters outlined in the PDF files disclosed by THE AUSTRALIAN newspaper pertain to the CM-2000 SSK MINUS its coating of acoustic rubber tiles & therefore poses no risk or threat to any CM-2000 Scorpene SSK of the IN. In fact, I had a conversation during DEFEXPO 2016 with the Indian OEM that makes such tiles & I was told that the IN will not place orders for such tiles unless & until the structural integrity & hydro-acoustic database of the 1st MDL-built Scorpene has been established/generated through the 1st round of sea-trials.
> 
> *Only after this will the customisation of Scorpene-specific rubber tiles & installation of additional vibration-isolators will commence & the 2nd round of sea-trials will commence & based on the results obtained, the databases of the CMS & IPMS will be further updated & refined. These final figures will be totally different from what’s today in the public domain.*
> 
> So, it’s high time all the 'desi’ commentators stoped running amock like headless chicken, & instead they ought to spend more time going into the detail before reaching sound, logical conclusions.



Yes it was posted here. Prasun is half right that data is more like RFI but I certainly believe data pertains to Chilean Navy scorpenes and based on those sub specifics some basic manuals were issued to Indian Navy by DCNS to build their own. There are two crews completely trained for Kalavari and for them the initial training involved French personnel giving training and handbooks of manuals issued from these sets which are now in public domain. They never completely pertain to Indian submarine specifications and in many places it's completely different. For example our front portion hull is modified and much different with addition of sonar elements which helps to integrate more arrays and increases the coverage. There are more such small significant proprietary modification and it started from Hull itself. You can be assured that Malaysian scorpene dived to 350m but Indian one will operate easily at 25% more without compromising or facing any hurdles.

As for acoustic signature it's true atm the trials are underway and acoustic tiles and rubber are yet to be placed. Here again we will use the mix of what we learn via DCNS and what we learned from Akula 2 flowing into ATV project. So the acoustic and rubber tiles led final signature will be different from what we can try to gauge via simulations and algorithms in terms of using reference points from say Agosta and Kilos .

The actual signature to be added to library is definitely more some time away.

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## Nilgiri

Oscar said:


> For DCNS it is a loss for business, for the IN it is a national security issue no matter how small.



Would a release of "restricted" (not secret or top secret) operating manuals regarding the Sturgeon Class subs hugely concern the US regarding their LA-class subs today?

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## BON PLAN

*it looks like things calm down on that front ... *

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## PARIKRAMA

Its now legally done ..

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## Ali Zadi

Had to happen but copies undoubtedly will fall into laps of people who want the info badly enough. As always information is power.

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## LOGICAL BOSSS

Published September 3, 2016
SOURCE: INDIA TODAY






In 2000, a few months after the Kargil War, an Indian submarine slipped out of her moorings in Mumbai harbour and headed into the north Arabian Sea. The INS Shalki, one of the navy’s quietest submarines, was on a specific mission. It was to track Pakistan’s newest acquisition, the French-built PNS Khalid, whose deployment had been indicated by Indian intelligence. The Shalki located the Khalid and tailed it for 45 minutes, her passive sonar stealthily recording acoustic readings and frequencies. The Khalid was oblivious to the shadowing and maintained normal transit speed, which allowed the Indian vessel to record its parameters.

The Shalki had, in a single patrol, gained valuable data on Pakistan’s newest undersea combatant, the critical noise and equipment ‘signatures’ that would help the navy’s warships and aircraft track the submarine.

On August 24, the Rupert Murdoch-owned broadsheet The Australian published documents on the vital parameters of India’s under-construction fleet of Scorpene-class submarines. India had signed a $3 billion deal with France in 2005 to indigenously assemble and build six Scorpene-class conventional submarines. The lead boat, the INS Kalvari, is on sea trials and slated to join the navy by the end of the year. Five others, being built at the Mazgaon Docks in Mumbai, will join the navy in one-year intervals by 2022.

The ‘Edward Snowden-sized leak’, as the newspaper called the tranche of 22,400 documents, brought to the fore sensitive parameters of the submarines, that make them deadly undersea predators: “the frequencies they gather intelligence at, what levels of noise they make at various speeds and their diving depths, range and endurance and specifications of the submarine’s torpedo launch system and the combat system”.

The leaks spilled out the kind of intelligence Shalki had gleaned about the Khalid. “It would have taken us five years of work to gather the data that the newspaper put out on a platter,” a senior naval official says. This intelligence trove would otherwise have to be extracted from foreign equipment vendors and validated through undersea cat-and-mouse games.

The Prime Minister’s Office was alerted about the leak on August 24 by an unusual source-the London-based retired naval officer Ravi Shankaran, whom the Central Bureau of Investigation has unsuccessfully tried to extradite for his alleged role in the 2005 navy war room leak case. In a complaint filed to the Centralised Public Grievance Redress and Monitoring System (CPGRAMS), where anyone can upload a document or lodge a grievance, Shankaran asked for an SIT probe into the leak of documents accessed by the Australian newspaper, making a more serious allegation, that “sensitive information was sold to Malaysia, which is pro-Pakistan”.

India’s purchase of six Scorpene-class submarines from French shipbuilder DCNS (Direction des Constructions et Armes Navales) in October 2005 were meant to throw a lifeline to the navy’s ageing submarine arm. The force’s 13 conventional submarines are close to the end of their 30-year service lives (the average age of the fleet is 26 years). In August 2013, a refurbished Kilo-class submarine exploded and sank in the Mumbai harbour. The Union ministry for defence initially downplayed the impact of this new crisis to hit the submarine division. Defence minister Manohar Parrikar even said “it was not a big worry”. The chief of naval staff, Admiral Sunil Lanba, however, said the navy viewed the Scorpene data leak “very seriously”.

*DEEP IMPACT*

The MoD has set up a high-level committee, headed by a three-star admiral, to probe the data leak. The committee will work closely with DCNS and France’s Directorate General of Armament to examine what data has been leaked and the implications for the navy before submitting its report by the end of September. “Based on the report of the committee, we will see what mitigation measures have to be taken,” Admiral Lanba told the media in New Delhi on August 29. Naval officials admit they are shooting in the dark, simply because they don’t know what data has been compromised. “Prepare for the worst, hope for the best,” one senior naval official told india today. On August 30, the navy heaved a sigh of relief when the Supreme Court of New South Wales temporarily halted The Australian’s expose, and directed the newspaper to hand all its documents over to DCNS. The court was responding to a petition filed by the French firm, which alleged the leak had harmed the company’s international image. Only 27 pages of Scorpene data have been put out in the public domain so far, yet there is no telling how many people may have studied and copied the documents, believed to have been leaked out of a DCNS facility in France.

Veteran Indian submariners have termed the leaks as grievous because, they say, not only do the documents reveal sensitive parameters and compromise the submarine’s biggest advantage-stealth-they also expose the Indian Navy’s thought process. “It narrows down the field the adversary is supposed to act in,” says Vice Admiral K.N. Sushil, former General Officer Commanding-in-Chief, Southern Command, and a veteran submariner. “It tells the adversary what kind of sonars you can expect to go against.”

Adversaries could tell, for instance, at what range the submarine could be operating, and the values for its intercept sonar. When they know this particular submarine is in transit to patrol area, they can start what is called ‘bracketing’ or putting a series of anti-submarine measures. “Given the volume of information out there, it will allow adversaries to simulate the Scorpene’s deployment patterns and come up with ways to track and hunt it,” one submarine veteran says.

The navy’s defence is that such a large volume of data is more likely to be about build specifications and operational instructions, which are available commercially in any case. The submarine’s actual performance parameters, obtained only after several months of sea trials, have not been leaked. Submariners say that the actual values may differ only slightly from the manufacturer’s specifications.

But there is near unanimity that the navy will need to alter the specifications of the boats, especially its radiated noise parameters. This, however, could lead to time and cost overruns. Even a 5 decibel reduction in the submarine’s generated noise levels, submariners say, will cost over a million dollars. The project is already late by over four years and costs had escalated from the initial contracted figure of Rs 18,000 crore (when it was signed in October 2005 )to over Rs 30,000 crore in 2014.

The leak is only the newest in the string of problems that have dogged the project. In 2006, the CBI probed allegations that Rs 500 crore had been paid in bribes to bag the contract, but found no evidence. The Supreme Court dismissed the PIL on the bribery charges in January this year. More recently, in June, the Scorpenes were defanged when defence minister Parrikar announced the cancellation of a tender to buy 98 Black Shark torpedoes. This was because the Italian firm that made them was a subsidiary of Finmeccanica-Leonardo, accused of paying bribes in the 2010 contract for VVIP helicopters.

*ORIGIN OF THE LEAKS*

What was the source of the leak? The Australian details the circuitous path it believes the data took, from DCNS offices in France to Malaysia, Singapore and Australia. The newspaper believes the data was taken out of France by a former French naval official, who quit service in the early ’70s and joined DCNS as a subcontractor. This yet unnamed official and another French national took the data to a Southeast Asian country (believed to be Malaysia), where they were employed by a private naval firm run by a western national. Sometime in 2011, the duo was fired over a dispute and refused re-entry into office. The firm then sent the data found on their computers to their head office in Singapore. In 2013, the data was then passed on to another unnamed person in Sydney, to gauge its significance. It was deemed sensitive and locked away. It is debatable whether it would have ever surfaced but for a momentous event in April this year.

On April 26 this year, Australian prime minister Malcolm Turnbull announced a $50 billion deal with DCNS to design and build 12 Shortfin Barracuda-class conventional submarines. The mammoth single deal, more than India’s annual defence budget, reflected regional concern over China’s growing military capabilities, which have sparked off a submarine race among Asian navies. The newspaper story highlighted to the Australian public the French shipbuilder’s tardy record of protecting military secrets. India just became the unwitting target of that expose.
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/scorpene-data-leak-case-indian-navy-the-australian/1/754033.html

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## PARIKRAMA

@Arsalan @waz @WAJsal
The main thread is this
https://defence.pk/threads/sensitive-data-of-indian-navy’s-scorpene-class-submarines-leaked.445677/

Can you merge this thread there.

Also on scorpene another thread is running
https://defence.pk/threads/india-sh...rine-order-after-scorpene-data-breach.447410/

It would be nice if you can help merge and collate all that in the main thread..

Regards,

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## Arsalan

PARIKRAMA said:


> @Arsalan @waz @WAJsal
> The main thread is this
> https://defence.pk/threads/sensitive-data-of-indian-navy’s-scorpene-class-submarines-leaked.445677/
> 
> Can you merge this thread there.
> 
> Also on scorpene another thread is running
> https://defence.pk/threads/india-sh...rine-order-after-scorpene-data-breach.447410/
> 
> It would be nice if you can help merge and collate all that in the main thread..
> 
> Regards,


Sorry i wont be able to help you with this but i do agree that we need to merge these threads. Get all that info under a single title. I hope nods here can help with it.

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## BON PLAN

PARIKRAMA said:


> @Arsalan @waz @WAJsal
> The main thread is this
> https://defence.pk/threads/sensitive-data-of-indian-navy’s-scorpene-class-submarines-leaked.445677/
> 
> Can you merge this thread there.
> 
> Also on scorpene another thread is running
> https://defence.pk/threads/india-sh...rine-order-after-scorpene-data-breach.447410/
> 
> It would be nice if you can help merge and collate all that in the main thread..
> 
> Regards,


*Submarine: DCNS passes a key stage in Australia*
http://www.latribune.fr/entreprises...669.html#xtor=EPR-2-[l-actu-du-jour]-20160930
*
The tricolor shipyard signed its first contract in Australia. This is the design contract for future submarines of the Australian Navy.*
Five months after being selected by Australia to produce 12 submarines, DCNS confirmed Thursday it had signed a "contract first operational". It covers the design of future Australian submarines in the program "Sea 1000". An announcement by the Minister of Defence, Marise Payne, and the Industry Minister of Defence, Christopher Pyne, who announced they had selected Lockheed Martin as combat system supplier.

"By forming a partnership with a company based in Australia and having close ties with the US, we make sure to get the best of Australian and American technology, while ensuring that our sensitive technology is protected," said in a statement the Australian Defence Ministers Marise Payne and Industry of Defense, Christopher Pyne,

A significant step forward The contract, which binds DCNS and the Australian government really runs the program, the amount totals to 34 billion euros. "This is a significant step forward, said the CEO of DCNS, Hervé Guillou, who is quoted in the press. This contract will enable DCNS to start the initial phase of future Australian submarine." This signature also demonstrates that the case of the leaked documents about the Scorpene submarines built by DCNS had no significant impact on the conduct of the Australian submarine program. The agreement "represents a first key step in the implementation of choice by Australia of a long-term partnership with France in the strategic area of submarine", welcomed the Minister of Defence, Jean -Yves Le Drian, in a statement Thursday night.

The contract signed with DCNS in particular address the design of future submarines. It aims to define the configuration and coordination with the combat system supplier and Australian partners in the program. In this context, DCNS will work with Lockheed Martin, which was selected by Raytheon Canberra preferably, to be the combat system supplier for future submarines, including sonar and torpedoes.

Canberra was chosen DCNS last April to begin negotiations for the purchase of submarines at the expense of Thyssenkrupp German and Japanese duo of Mitsubishi Heavy Industries and Kawasaki Heavy Industries. The commissioning of the new submarine is expected in 2027. In addition to manufacturing submarines, the contract also includes an overall budget of 50 years including in particular the infrastructure, maintenance and crew training.

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## Michael Corleone

Isn't this a total mishap? Or was it deliberately leaked? It still won't undermine the combat capability of the subs yeah?


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## BON PLAN

A very interesting document

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a281747.pdf

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## Nilgiri

BON PLAN said:


> A very interesting document
> 
> http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a281747.pdf



Link isnt working for me. Is it hosted somewhere else?


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## GuardianRED

Nilgiri said:


> Link isnt working for me. Is it hosted somewhere else?


its not very large , i can send it to you by email



BON PLAN said:


> A very interesting document
> 
> http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a281747.pdf


Still coming to term that this was written in 1994 and most of what is mentioned is still valid today


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## Nilgiri

GuardianRED said:


> its not very large , i can send it to you by email
> 
> 
> Still coming to term that this was written in 1994 and most of what is mentioned is still valid today



Thanks.....but its working for me now for some reason heh....and whaddya know its a paper I already have in my archive hehe.

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## BON PLAN

Still coming to term that this was written in 1994 and most of what is mentioned is still valid today[/QUOTE]

All newer reports are classified !

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## BON PLAN

*Extremely Difficult for Indian Navy’s Submarine Force to Counter Any Hostilities in Current State : Standing Committee on Defence.*

In a recent report tabled before the parliament, the ‘standing committee on defence’ has raised serious concerns about the Indian Navy’s underwater force. The submarine force of the navy is at the epicentre of the navy’s operations in the contested Indian Ocean Region (IOR). Under the navy’s command are just 14 submarines which are tasked with the crucial task of guarding India’s coastal waters and also the far flung maritime interest of the country.

Besides, the submarine force is also in-charge of maintaining a privy eye over multiple chokepoints along Strait of Hormuz and Malacca Straits in the Indian Ocean. The submarines are critical for India to impose and to repel any naval blockades along these vantage maritime strategic chokepoints. The effective management of these naval blockades will prove decisive in war-time.

The high-powered standing committee in its report has strongly noted that “It is very unfortunate that Navy has landed into such a critical situation where MRLC (Medium Refit Life Certification) of six submarines is the only available option. Even MRLC will be completed only by 2019. In such a dismal scenario, it is very difficult for Navy to be adequately prepared for any eventuality.”

The navy’s under-water force is composed of 13 conventional and 1 nuclear powered submarines which are all on an average aged between 16-30 years. A classified report prepared by the navy had stated that at any given time, a very minimal amount of the force is available for operations as most of the submarines are either under minor or major refitting programs.

The navy, in an effort to address the short fallings, had in 1999 drafted the 30-year submarine construction plan, under which navy envisioned to constructs 12 conventional submarines by 2012 in Phase – I and another 12 by 2024 in Phase – II. But after almost two decades down the lane, the navy has failed to induct even a single submarine to its force.

The Maritime Capability Perspective Plan (MCPP) 2012-27, under which the navy’s modernisation programs are being floated, envisages a force level of at least 18 conventional submarines. The committee has raised concerns about the country’s efforts and capabilities to meet these ambitious targets.

The P-75 program under which six conventional ‘Scorpene’ submarines are being built by DCNS and MDL is at least four years behind schedule. INS Kalvari, the first submarine being constructed under the program, is expected to be commissioned only in mid-2017.

The Navy and MoD, in a written reply to the committee’s query in regard to answering the deficit in the force, have stated that there exists no solid procurement option. Further, they have observed that the lone viable option to pursue under current condition is to rely on Medium Refit Life Certification (MRLC) of submarines.

These demanding and costly MRLCs the navy says will increase the service life of every single submarine by at least 10 years. A single MRLC according to the navy will take at least 2-3 years and the program shall duly be certified by OEMs.
Way forward for re-energising submarine force of Indian Navy
The navy is currently modernising its submarine force under the ‘30 year submarine construction’ program and the Maritime Capability Perspective Plan 2012-2027. Accordingly, the navy will have to operate at least 30 submarines to counter balance the surging induction rate being followed by the hostile neighbours.

The navy is desperately waiting for the induction of the six ‘Scorpene’ diesel-electric submarines being built by state-run Defence PSU Mazagon Dock Shipbuilders Limited (MDL) in collaboration with French based DCNS under the P-75 program. The submarines under the program are delayed over four years and this is largely attributed to the development of indigenous technology.

INS Kalvari, the first of the submarine being built under the program, is slated to be commissioned by mid-2017, as the submarine has successfully completed all sea trials. INS Khanderi, second of the six submarines, was launched by MDL in February, 2017 and is expected to be commissioned in December, 2017. The rest of the four submarines are expected to be rolled out with a time gap of nine months between each of them.

The navy is said to be contemplating to order at least three more Scorpene submarines to meet the deficit in the force. MDL and DCNS have stated that possible construction of these additional submarines will incubate the construction line and facilities that were built under P-75 program. Further, the company has stated that the development period for these submarines will be less compared to the ones contracted under P-75 Program. The move is largely being viewed as a win-win situation for all stakeholders.

Another program the navy is pinning its hope on is the P-75I program under which six more AIP equipped conventional submarines are to be constructed. The program has been delayed even before its inception as the MoD is yet to release a RFP and this is attributed to the delay in notification of the much awaited ‘Strategic Partnership’ model.

Several global submarine manufacturers have made elaborate offers to the MoD and it is believed that the manufacturers are offering unmatched ToT (Transfer of Technology). Following its tryst with the Indian market, DCNS is expected to make the most economically viable offer. Further, the company already has established prerequisite expertise and infrastructure at MDL. HDW is offering its Type-214 submarine and Sweden based Saab AB is making an aggressive, unmatched and ‘no-strings attached’ ToT offer for its A-26 NG submarine.

With the planned involvement of private shipyards, the tender is expected to offer high stakes for foreign manufacturers in India’s lucrative defence industry. Much of the selection process will demand up on the financial and ToT offer made by the companies.

In February, 2015, the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) cleared the construction of six nuclear powered attack submarines (SSN) at an estimated cost of over INR 50,000 crore. The submarines will be designed by navy’s Directorate of Naval Design and are to be constructed at the state-run Hindustan Shipyard Limited (HSL), Vishakhapatnam. Sources have indicated that the submarine will be mainly based around the design of Russian origin Akula-class SSN. The design and development teams are expected to encounter no major hurdles as they have acquired prerequisite expertise following the successful construction of INS Arihant.

The navy will also be acquiring at least four Arihant-class nuclear powered ballistic missile (SSBN) submarines by 2022. These submarines are being constructed under the secretive Advanced Technology Vessel (ATV) project. INS Arihant, the first of the four SSBN, is rumoured to have already entered service with the navy. The addition of Arihant, if true, will provide the country with credible second strike capability.

*=> It smells well for another batch of Scorpene. 3 or 6 ....*

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## Taygibay

BON PLAN said:


> *3 or 6 ....*



or 3 + 6.

 Tay.

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## BON PLAN

*Is India planning Mega Submarine Acquisition plans?*


http://idrw.org/is-india-planning-mega-submarine-acquisition-plans/

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## AsianLion

*Scorpene Submarine Leaks May Have Sunk India’s First 100% FDI in Defence Proposal*

A combination of technology concerns and stress over the Scorpene data leak have put the French contractor's FDI proposal into cold storage for now.

New Delhi: The Scorpene submarine leaks may have been the final nail in the coffin for India’s first 100% foreign direct investment (FDI) proposal in the defence sector, according to people with direct knowledge of the matter.

The FDI proposal in question was made earlier this year by French naval firm DCNS – the company which is currently helping build and design India’s six Scorpene-class submarines and was at the centre of last month’s military data leak scandal.

It’s no secret that India’s push for indigenous defence production and greater foreign investment in the defence sector has been moving along slowly. While the DCNS proposal is a relatively modest investment, its rejection represents the challenges that defence minister Manohar Parikkar has had to face in building India’s defence manufacturing ecosystem.

In March, DCNS submitted a Rs 100 crore proposal for the setting up of a wholly-owned Indian subsidiary that would undertake research and development activities “in relation to air independent propulsion (AIP) systems for submarines”.

“From the moment the proposal was submitted, there were a couple of issues. As with almost any multi-million dollar defence deal, things were stalled because communication was not clear and adequate paperwork was not received. This happened around the time that the norms around FDI in defence were eased,” one defence ministry official, who declined to be identified, told _The Wire_.

In the months after the proposal was submitted, negotiations hit yet another roadblock: Namely, whether the AIP technology that DCNS was centring its FDI proposal and proposed Indian subsidiary around, qualified as “modern technology” required under India’s FDI regulations.

“One of the key stumbling points was that the propulsion technology that their Indian subsidiary would research and develop was already being transferred by DCNS itself to the DRDO (Defence Research Development Organisation) as part of the Scorpene submarine development happening in Mumbai. The company is already developing the proposed tech in India, so how could it be allowed,” said the official quoted above.

According to industry sources, DCNS’s FDI plan specifically banked on the Modi government ordering another three Scorpene submarines that could have been outfitted with the AIP technology; which would given the ships greater underwater endurance. According to two defence experts _The Wire_ spoke to, if the defence ministry ended up ordering more submarines, the FDI proposal stood a better chance of going through.

Data leak fiasco

On August 24, _The Australian_ published excerpts of what it claimed was a 20,000-page document data leak that detailed the technical specifications of DCNS’s Scorpene-class submarines; including the ones being inducted into the Indian navy. This, according to sources, eventually proved to be the final nail in the coffin of the FDI proposal.

Two days after the data leaks, _The Wire_, quoting industry sources, reported that “it would be a wonder if DCNS’ FDI proposal went through” at this stage; with defence ministry officials going into damage-control mode and wanting to play down the data leaks as quickly as possible. A few days after that, Reuters reported that the government had no intention of purchasing an additional three Scorpene submarines.

Industry observers pointed out that before the data leaks were made public, both the defence ministry and the DCNS were still cautiously hopeful of sorting out any differences over whether the AIP technology qualified as modern technology and whether its existing technological collaboration with DRDO didn’t count as a conflict of interest. In fact, senior executives of DCNS were scheduled to visit New Delhi, in order to secure final approval for its FDI proposal, the week after _The Australian_ eventually published its story.

After the leaks were made public, much of India’s defence establishment was riled up, with many senior officials advocating for a quick withdrawal from anything to do with the Scorpene submarines. Over the last few days, a number of indicators point towards the FDI proposal being dead in the water.

“The FDI proposal has essentially been put into cold storage. It is a lose-lose situation for the government. There is almost nothing to be gained by approving the FDI proposal. Not only is the technology in question, it would look terrible for the government to approve a proposal by DCNS, which is in hot water over the Scorpene leaks. Even if the government’s probe point towards the Scorpene leak not being a big deal, it isn’t prudent to immediately do business with this company right away,” an industry source told _The Wire_.

DCNS’s FDI proposal largely hinged on the government ordering three extra submarines: its proposed subsidiary could have helped the DRDO outfit the ships with stronger underwater endurance technology. Without that purchase, defence experts say, the FDI proposal looks less appealing.

In that regard, the FDI proposal by DCNS isn’t as state-of-the-art or valuable for India’s defence manufacturing ecosystem as the much-hyped American combat aircraft manufacturing proposals by Boeing and Lockheed Martin.

“The FDI proposal by DCNS, while very tiny in the larger scheme of things, was the first 100% FDI proposal under the Modi government’s new procurement policy. To have to reject it under these circumstances, even if it is a prudent decision, is a little bitter-sweet,” said one senior defence analyst, who declined to be identified.


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## BON PLAN

AsianUnion said:


> *Scorpene Submarine Leaks May Have Sunk India’s First 100% FDI in Defence Proposal*
> 
> A combination of technology concerns and stress over the Scorpene data leak have put the French contractor's FDI proposal into cold storage for now.
> 
> New Delhi: The Scorpene submarine leaks may have been the final nail in the coffin for India’s first 100% foreign direct investment (FDI) proposal in the defence sector, according to people with direct knowledge of the matter.
> 
> The FDI proposal in question was made earlier this year by French naval firm DCNS – the company which is currently helping build and design India’s six Scorpene-class submarines and was at the centre of last month’s military data leak scandal.
> 
> It’s no secret that India’s push for indigenous defence production and greater foreign investment in the defence sector has been moving along slowly. While the DCNS proposal is a relatively modest investment, its rejection represents the challenges that defence minister Manohar Parikkar has had to face in building India’s defence manufacturing ecosystem.
> 
> In March, DCNS submitted a Rs 100 crore proposal for the setting up of a wholly-owned Indian subsidiary that would undertake research and development activities “in relation to air independent propulsion (AIP) systems for submarines”.
> 
> “From the moment the proposal was submitted, there were a couple of issues. As with almost any multi-million dollar defence deal, things were stalled because communication was not clear and adequate paperwork was not received. This happened around the time that the norms around FDI in defence were eased,” one defence ministry official, who declined to be identified, told _The Wire_.
> 
> In the months after the proposal was submitted, negotiations hit yet another roadblock: Namely, whether the AIP technology that DCNS was centring its FDI proposal and proposed Indian subsidiary around, qualified as “modern technology” required under India’s FDI regulations.
> 
> “One of the key stumbling points was that the propulsion technology that their Indian subsidiary would research and develop was already being transferred by DCNS itself to the DRDO (Defence Research Development Organisation) as part of the Scorpene submarine development happening in Mumbai. The company is already developing the proposed tech in India, so how could it be allowed,” said the official quoted above.
> 
> According to industry sources, DCNS’s FDI plan specifically banked on the Modi government ordering another three Scorpene submarines that could have been outfitted with the AIP technology; which would given the ships greater underwater endurance. According to two defence experts _The Wire_ spoke to, if the defence ministry ended up ordering more submarines, the FDI proposal stood a better chance of going through.
> 
> Data leak fiasco
> 
> On August 24, _The Australian_ published excerpts of what it claimed was a 20,000-page document data leak that detailed the technical specifications of DCNS’s Scorpene-class submarines; including the ones being inducted into the Indian navy. This, according to sources, eventually proved to be the final nail in the coffin of the FDI proposal.
> 
> Two days after the data leaks, _The Wire_, quoting industry sources, reported that “it would be a wonder if DCNS’ FDI proposal went through” at this stage; with defence ministry officials going into damage-control mode and wanting to play down the data leaks as quickly as possible. A few days after that, Reuters reported that the government had no intention of purchasing an additional three Scorpene submarines.
> 
> Industry observers pointed out that before the data leaks were made public, both the defence ministry and the DCNS were still cautiously hopeful of sorting out any differences over whether the AIP technology qualified as modern technology and whether its existing technological collaboration with DRDO didn’t count as a conflict of interest. In fact, senior executives of DCNS were scheduled to visit New Delhi, in order to secure final approval for its FDI proposal, the week after _The Australian_ eventually published its story.
> 
> After the leaks were made public, much of India’s defence establishment was riled up, with many senior officials advocating for a quick withdrawal from anything to do with the Scorpene submarines. Over the last few days, a number of indicators point towards the FDI proposal being dead in the water.
> 
> “The FDI proposal has essentially been put into cold storage. It is a lose-lose situation for the government. There is almost nothing to be gained by approving the FDI proposal. Not only is the technology in question, it would look terrible for the government to approve a proposal by DCNS, which is in hot water over the Scorpene leaks. Even if the government’s probe point towards the Scorpene leak not being a big deal, it isn’t prudent to immediately do business with this company right away,” an industry source told _The Wire_.
> 
> DCNS’s FDI proposal largely hinged on the government ordering three extra submarines: its proposed subsidiary could have helped the DRDO outfit the ships with stronger underwater endurance technology. Without that purchase, defence experts say, the FDI proposal looks less appealing.
> 
> In that regard, the FDI proposal by DCNS isn’t as state-of-the-art or valuable for India’s defence manufacturing ecosystem as the much-hyped American combat aircraft manufacturing proposals by Boeing and Lockheed Martin.
> 
> “The FDI proposal by DCNS, while very tiny in the larger scheme of things, was the first 100% FDI proposal under the Modi government’s new procurement policy. To have to reject it under these circumstances, even if it is a prudent decision, is a little bitter-sweet,” said one senior defence analyst, who declined to be identified.


OLD, VERY OLD NEWS (proof? DCNS is called NAVAL Group since months)
It's a cold case, not to say a dead case.

You will see a follow on order for 3 more SCORPENE soon...


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## AsianLion

BON PLAN said:


> OLD, VERY OLD NEWS (proof? DCNS is called NAVAL Group since months)
> It's a cold case, not to say a dead case.
> 
> You will see a follow on order for 3 more SCORPENE soon...



Bruv did u read the above article? Yes its a few months old. Can you tell me what concessions and reasons France gave to India about the leak and what happened later after the Scorpene Submarine Data leak, who was to blame in all this?

I have serious doubts with a company whose data has been leaked to the world, you are telling me 3 more Scorpene by Indian are to be ordered soon! What credible information you have on this!


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## ni8mare

BON PLAN said:


> OLD, VERY OLD NEWS (proof? DCNS is called NAVAL Group since months)
> It's a cold case, not to say a dead case.
> 
> You will see a follow on order for 3 more SCORPENE soon...


The particular media in question is spinning the news.....it's about french AIP through 100% FDI which didn't take off due to DRDO AIP

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## BON PLAN

AsianUnion said:


> Bruv did u read the above article? Yes its a few months old. Can you tell me what concessions and reasons France gave to India about the leak and what happened later after the Scorpene Submarine Data leak, who was to blame in all this?
> 
> I have serious doubts with a company whose data has been leaked to the world, you are telling me 3 more Scorpene by Indian are to be ordered soon! What credible information you have on this!


- The famous "leaks" are mainly marketing datas. Do you think that Mercedes would have a considerable advantage to know that the next BMW 6 cylinders 3L engine reach 300 hp? NO. It's a news. Not a decisiv one.
- Indian navy top brass itself said it's a cold case.
- No concession was made.



AsianUnion said:


> as state-of-the-art or valuable for India’s defence manufacturing ecosystem as the much-hyped American combat aircraft manufacturing proposals by Boeing and Lockheed Martin.


LUDICROUS !!!!
This sole sentence give the level of this tabloid news.... = BS.

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## randomradio

AsianUnion said:


> Bruv did u read the above article? Yes its a few months old. Can you tell me what concessions and reasons France gave to India about the leak and what happened later after the Scorpene Submarine Data leak, who was to blame in all this?
> 
> I have serious doubts with a company whose data has been leaked to the world, you are telling me 3 more Scorpene by Indian are to be ordered soon! What credible information you have on this!



The leaks were not sensitive. It only had general information, which any expert can just guess using knowledge and experience.

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