# Pak economy vs indian economy



## RAPTOR

*Comparing Pakistan and india is like comparing apples and oranges. india is in the same league as Congo. "World Bank"*


*World Bank's $1bn slap for India* 
By Siddharth Srivastava 

NEW DELHI - In a stinging rebuke to India's ingrained corruption and inability to really deliver on its social and health missions, the World Bank (WB) has decided to withhold more than $1 billion aimed at health programs in the county due to allegations of fraud and misappropriation of funds. 

India likes to project itself as a modern, rising economic powerhouse. But the World Bank's action places India on the same level with a motley group of rogue countries such as Bangladesh, Chad, the Congo, Kenya and Argentina that have suffered the same ignominy. 

"The World Bank strongly believes that corruption and leakages are a major development issue, for they undermine the intended 
outcomes for which public money is spent," said the agency. "The government of India shares this concern." 

Funding has been frozen for the second national tuberculosis control project and the Karnataka health systems project, both elements of the Bank-backed reproductive and child health program. While the WB has launched a probe into various allegations of corruption in the procurement of pharmaceuticals, the Finance Ministry has urged states and federal departments to ensure complete "transparency and integrity" in awarding contracts. 

The Indian Express quoted Finance Minister P Chidambaram as having told World Bank chief Paul Wolfowitz: "We are on the same wavelength ... complete transparency and integrity in project implementation is imperative." Recently, the Finance Ministry evolved a Governance and Accountability Action Plan designed to strengthen governance, in keeping with the bank's wishes. 

The allegations put a question mark on efforts by the government to ameliorate the negative effects of economic growth in the country through massive rural infrastructure, health and education spending. To this end, India has also been trying to rope in the bank to garner funds and expertise. 

In August, the WB announced it would lend India $9 billion over three years for development projects in rural areas. Wolfowitz said the funds would be used to sustain the growth needed to lift 250 million people out of poverty. Over 260 million of India's 1.1 billion people live in abject poverty, despite economic growth of 6% per annum or more since free market reforms were initiated in 1991. 

While New Delhi has other sources of funds (especially the growing kitty from a services tax) to meet the challenge of lifting up the poorest, the unhappiness expressed by the WB is symptomatic of New Delhi's extremely bad record in getting the money to those who need it. 

The government of Prime Minister Manmohan Singh launched a massive project of rural employment guarantees in August. It plans to spend more than $40 billion per year to be implemented at the behest of public servants across the country. 

In detail, the government will provide a guaranteed wage of close to $1.5 per day to all rural households in 200 districts for a period of 100 days. Some 90% of the expenditures will be borne by the federal government, the remainder by the states. New Delhi also announced an urban renewal scheme in December that provides for disbursing funds to upgrade the infrastructure of 63 selected cities. Over $12 billion has been earmarked for the project and will be disbursed over seven years. 

Unfortunately, the implementation of such programs is invariably tardy and creates a huge constituency of corrupt petty bureaucrats. There have been various attempts to put a figure on the dimensions of Indian corruption. By some accounts, the government loses $50 billion due to tax evasion; $10 billion due to delay in projects due to bureaucratic red tape; and $7 billion to various forms of outright corruption each a year. 

Former prime minister Rajiv Gandhi famously said that for every rupee spent by the government for development less than a tenth of the amount actually reaches the supposed beneficiary. Sadly, this is probably not an exaggerated figure. 

Studies by the Berlin-based Transparency International (TI) and other indices such as the Corruption Perception Index have consistently ranked India as one of the world's most corrupt countries. In last year's TI report, India secured a lowly spot at number 88 (out of 159 countries surveyed) of the most corrupt places on the planet, along side Gabon, Mali, Moldova, Tanzania and Iran. 

The World Bank has labeled the Delhi Development Authority that oversees urban housing and commercial property in the national capital as the most corrupt organization in India. A Planning Commission study has revealed that less than 50% of food grains meant for people living below the poverty line actually reached them. Such pilferage amounted to almost a billion dollars. 

One cruel consequence of social and economic inequity has been a vicious Naxalite and Maoist rebellion throughout the Indian heartland. While the world tends to focus on terrorism in Indian Kashmir, and to a lesser degree, strife in the northeastern states and other parts of India, a bloodier battle is being waged in the hinterlands of Andhra Pradesh, Madhya Pradesh, Bihar, Jharkhand, Chhatisgarh, Orissa. In many places the Maoists and Naxalites rule with the gun. Although there are several causes for the Naxalite violence, one of the main reasons has been the absence of land reform and the persistence of extreme poverty. 

The Maoists feed on the cadres of tribals and dalits (considered to be of the lower castes) who have been dispossessed of their lands. They also exploit the alienation that many people feel about indifferent state governments. Although the police and landlords remain the two biggest targets of the Maoists, the communist rebels recently captured a train with more 250 passengers in a remote part of Jharkhand. 

In February, Maoists attacked a truck convoy in Chhattisgarh, killing 24 people and injuring 32. In one of the biggest attacks staged in November, over 1,000 rebels meticulously planned and then executed the release of 350 of their comrades lodged in the Jehanabad jail in Bihar. 

A study by the Home Ministry says murders of police personnel by guerrillas jumped 53% to 153 in the past year, while 516 civilians were killed, an 11% increase on the previous year. In the early 1990s, the number of districts affected by Maoist violence stood at just 15 in four states. It has now risen to 170 districts out of a total of 602 in the country. 

The government has tried to shine more light on aid transactions by enacting the Right to Information Act that enables greater public scrutiny of projects and programs. However, as is apparent by the bank's rap, a lot more needs to be done. 

_*Siddharth Srivastava *is a New Delhi-based journalist._

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/HD06Df04.html


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## Bull

I went thru the entire article and i didnt see even a single line drawing paralel btw indian and pakistani economies.What do u gain by just trying to represent facts stated?

Post the link as it is and i wont rebuff a single claim thats stated in the article.india though growing steadfastly has got lots of catching upto to do when it comes rural health and education.Corruption is also widespread on the ground levels.


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## RAPTOR

*Pakistan to become regional trade hub*



LAHORE, March 13: President Gen Pervez Musharraf says Pakistan will become a trade, investment and energy corridor for the entire region. Speaking at the foundation stone laying ceremony of the Lahore Expo Centre on Monday, the president said the country was rising and its economy improving fast. Pakistan would continue to rise to new heights and would develop as a trade, investment and energy corridor, he said.

Speaking about the seven-point rapid export growth strategy given by the federal government in the trade policy for 2005-06, he said he would do his best to seek Free Trade Agreements (FTAs) and Preferential Trade Agreements (PTAs) with countries like the US, China and others.

He, however, urged the businessmen and exporters to add value to their products. He said apart from the textile sector businessmen should focus their attention on adding value to the dairy and agriculture products. He said Pakistan was the fifth largest producer of milk in the world. There was a lot of scope for adding value to the dairy products. &#8220;Bring about a white revolution (through value-addition in the dairy products),&#8221; he urged the private sector. Similarly, he added, there was a dire need of value-addition in the food and food processing industry.

Gen Musharraf also recalled the efforts made by his government since taking over power in October 1999 to turn the economy around. He said his government had capped defence budget despite increased threats and 10-month long military build-up (with India in 2002), reduced expenditure on establishment and plugged haemorrhage of public funds to bring down fiscal deficit to less than four per cent from over eight per cent, as well as increased exports, enhanced foreign remittances and got bilateral debt rescheduled from the Paris Club to improve the external balance payments. Foreign direct investment (FDI) also grew to $1.5bn last fiscal year from $400m in 1999, and was expected to rise to $3 billion at the end of the current financial year.

He sought to dispel the impression that the economy had started to turn around after the fateful events of September 11, 2001. &#8220;The results of our prudent economic policies had begun yielding results long before that,&#8221; he claimed. He said the external balance of payments surplus, which stood at $2 billion last year, was trimmed by increased imports this year. But he was hopeful that the imports would ultimately boost the country&#8217;s exports, which were already expected to cross the all-time high of $17 billion this fiscal from a mere $7.8 billion in 1999. He said this was made possible by the government through diversification of export markets and exportable products.

He said the Lahore Expo Centre would act as a catalyst for boosting exports. He was glad to note that the project was being implemented through public-private partnership programme.

Earlier, Commerce Minister Humayun Akhtar Khan said Pakistan&#8217;s exports this year would comfortably exceed the target of $17 billion. He said his ministry was now focussing on domestic commerce, adding that studies had been undertaken on the issue. Some major initiatives on domestic commerce would be announced in the next trade policy, he said.


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## RAPTOR

i never knew india was poorer than sub-saharan Africa and so corrupt.


*WB halts India&#8217;s funds*

NEW DELHI, April 5: The World Bank&#8217;s India country head has said health project loans have been put on hold because of corruption worries and urged the government to plug leaks in social programmes. The comments were published on Wednesday in an opinion article by Michael Carter in the Indian Express after it reported this week that more than half a billion dollars in loans to India, the agency&#8217;s largest aid recipient, are stalled because of corruption complaints.

&#8220;If India truly wants to take the fruits of is rapid economic growth to every section of its diverse society, it needs to plug the leaks in its public expenditure,&#8221; Carter wrote in the article.

The World Bank has been investigating complaints received a year ago that fraud occurred in the purchase of medicines for the program.

&#8220;The investigation is still ongoing but we have shared our findings so far with the government of India,&#8221; Carter wrote.

&#8220;To allow more time for discussion between the bank and the government of India on the most effective ways to address these issues ... we have postponed consideration of a second RCH program and two other health sector loans.&#8221;

Together, these loans total some 660 million dollars, according to the Indian Express report.

The World Bank country chief went on to say the incident is not unique and that corruption has gutted many ambitious and expensive public welfare programmes in India.

&#8220;There is a very poor connect in India between the quantum of public money disbursed and the accessibility and quality of services allocated,&#8221; he wrote.

As a result, many health and quality-of-life indices in India compare unfavourably to those in poorer countries, such as neighbouring Bangladesh or sub-Saharan African nations, Carter said.

&#8220;Most tellingly, 47 per cent of India&#8217;s under-three infants are undernourished &#8212; double the rate of sub-Saharan Africa.&#8221;

London-based Corruption watchdog Transparency International ranked India the 88th most corrupt country out of the 159 surveyed in a report released last year that said citizens forked out 4.6 billion dollars in bribes in 2005 to get public services like water.&#8212;AFP


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## Owais

My friend satan, u must agree on the fact that indian economy is growing faster than pakistan's economy. they have 7+% GDP last year and have foreign excahnge reserves of $126+ billions. and we just have $11.6billions.


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## Neo

Owais said:


> My friend satan, u must agree on the fact that indian economy is growing faster than pakistan's economy. they have 7+% GDP last year and have foreign excahnge reserves of $126+ billions. and we just have $11.6billions.


 
I second that!
Lets not be too patriotic and stick to reality!


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## Kaiser

Owais said:


> My friend satan, u must agree on the fact that indian economy is growing faster than pakistan's economy. they have 7+% GDP last year and have foreign excahnge reserves of $126+ billions. and we just have $11.6billions.


 
Last time I checked Pakistan had a growth rate of 8.4% while India haad a growth rate of 6%. know tell me who has a faster growing economy?

Pakistan will soon be a major trade hub for the middle ease,central asia,China, and possibly India.Gwadar port within a decade of operation will probaly surpass Dubai port and will be a leading trade hud for the robust economy of central asia nations.Pakistan is also making large stride in IT and telecommunications.


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## SMC

*



Comparing Pakistan and india is like comparing apples and oranges. india is in the same league as Congo. "World Bank"

Click to expand...

* 

This is some funny shit


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## EagleEyes

Guys keep it down, and SATAN stop the crap.


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## Kaiser

WebMaster said:


> Guys keep it down, and SATAN stop the crap.


 
I dont see anything wrong that satan is doing accept telling the truth.Pakistan in the future will surely be a reginial and world hub for oil,gas,IT and what not. While in the past decade Indian poverty remained at the same level while last year alone we ruduced poverty by 6-7% and inshallah by 2015 will remove it entirely!


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## EagleEyes

> i never knew india was poorer than sub-saharan Africa and so corrupt.


 
My statement was directed at this statement of SATAN. You have your views, i have my own.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## Comanche

WebMaster said:


> My statement was directed at this statement of SATAN. You have your views, i have my own.




i read the article and that statement was made by the world bank, not SATAN. he is just quoting from the article.i dont see anything wrong with it.


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## EagleEyes

Comanche said:


> i read the article and that statement was made by the world bank, not SATAN. he is just quoting from the article.i dont see anything wrong with it.


 


> Ã¢â¬ÅMost tellingly, 47 per cent of IndiaÃ¢â¬â¢s under-three infants are undernourished Ã¢â¬â double the rate of sub-Saharan Africa.Ã¢â¬Â


 
Thats the only thing. I would like to get source from SATAN too. 

Thanks.


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## Comanche

SATAN said:


> i never knew india was poorer than sub-saharan Africa and so corrupt.
> 
> 
> *WB halts IndiaÃ¢â¬â¢s funds*
> 
> NEW DELHI, April 5: The World BankÃ¢â¬â¢s India country head has said health project loans have been put on hold because of corruption worries and urged the government to plug leaks in social programmes. The comments were published on Wednesday in an opinion article by Michael Carter in the Indian Express after it reported this week that more than half a billion dollars in loans to India, the agencyÃ¢â¬â¢s largest aid recipient, are stalled because of corruption complaints.
> 
> Ã¢â¬ÅIf India truly wants to take the fruits of is rapid economic growth to every section of its diverse society, it needs to plug the leaks in its public expenditure,Ã¢â¬Â Carter wrote in the article.
> 
> The World Bank has been investigating complaints received a year ago that fraud occurred in the purchase of medicines for the program.
> 
> Ã¢â¬ÅThe investigation is still ongoing but we have shared our findings so far with the government of India,Ã¢â¬Â Carter wrote.
> 
> Ã¢â¬ÅTo allow more time for discussion between the bank and the government of India on the most effective ways to address these issues ... we have postponed consideration of a second RCH program and two other health sector loans.Ã¢â¬Â
> 
> Together, these loans total some 660 million dollars, according to the Indian Express report.
> 
> The World Bank country chief went on to say the incident is not unique and that corruption has gutted many ambitious and expensive public welfare programmes in India.
> 
> Ã¢â¬ÅThere is a very poor connect in India between the quantum of public money disbursed and the accessibility and quality of services allocated,Ã¢â¬Â he wrote.
> 
> As a result, many health and quality-of-life indices in India compare unfavourably to those in poorer countries, such as neighbouring Bangladesh or sub-Saharan African nations, Carter said.
> 
> Ã¢â¬ÅMost tellingly, 47 per cent of IndiaÃ¢â¬â¢s under-three infants are undernourished Ã¢â¬â double the rate of sub-Saharan Africa.Ã¢â¬Â
> 
> London-based Corruption watchdog Transparency International ranked India the 88th most corrupt country out of the 159 surveyed in a report released last year that said citizens forked out 4.6 billion dollars in bribes in 2005 to get public services like water.Ã¢â¬âAFP




my cousin went to india last month as part of a NGO and they said it is even worse that sudan and haiti. the india we see on tv is not the same india you see in reality.instead of spending $20 billion a year on defense it should feed its 700 million dirt poor people who have no axcess to clean water or even toilets!


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## Comanche

Owais said:


> My friend satan, u must agree on the fact that indian economy is growing faster than pakistan's economy. they have 7+% GDP last year and have foreign excahnge reserves of $126+ billions. and we just have $11.6billions.


 
agreed 100% . india is poor and its infrastructure is below congo i read but they have very large reserves and a lot of jobs are being outsourced to india now because india has a history of doing menial jobs for other people and this way they make $$ and add to their economy and also india is also a huge market. but still its very poor and dirty and way too many ugly people.but the people living next to pakistan arent bad looking because they are closer to the border i guess.


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## Bull

Kaiser said:


> Last time I checked Pakistan had a growth rate of 8.4% while India haad a growth rate of 6%. know tell me who has a faster growing economy?.


 
Indias GDP grew by 8.1% last year and thats is growth of $ 56 Bn, from $ 692 to $ 748.

While pakistans GDP grew by 8.4 %last year and thats a growth of $8.3 Bn,from $104.64 to $113.5


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## Bull

Kaiser said:


> I dont see anything wrong that satan is doing accept telling the truth.Pakistan in the future will surely be a reginial and world hub for oil,gas,IT and what not. While in the past decade Indian poverty remained at the same level while last year alone we ruduced poverty by 6-7% and inshallah by 2015 will remove it entirely!


 
Indian poverty level is down by less than 25% compared to the above 50% prevailant during the 1950s. - World bank


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## SMC

Guys, lets act appropriately here, espacially Comanche.


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## Comanche

Ahsan_R said:


> Guys, lets act appropriately here, espacially Comanche.


 yes imsoree if i offent but my english isnt very good and im very honest and blunt


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## Comanche

Prashant said:


> Indian poverty level is down by less than 25% compared to the above 50% prevailant during the 1950s. - World bank




but mr prasant. as part of a group we went to karachi from montreal and the minute i landed at the airport i thouth i was in heathrow or changi airport. everything was world class and the drive from the airpiort to the sheraton was like driving in any main highway in L.A or london. the roads were clean traffic was orderly and there were flyovers and highrises. then we landed at the bombay airport. well there was no airconditioning working, its was filthy, smelly, everything was made out of cheap plastic the people were rude and then there were beggars everywhere. then we get on the road and i saw slums poverty beggars overcrowded buses bleching out smokes it was scary. if india reduceds its poveryt we didnt see it.
but ourhotel was nice and was pleased with it . it was called hotel taj i think and most of us just did our business and stayed within the hotel and didnt get out at all.. becuz it was way too scary.


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## Bull

Comanche said:


> but mr prasant. as part of a group we went to karachi from montreal and the minute i landed at the airport i thouth i was in heathrow or changi airport. everything was world class and the drive from the airpiort to the sheraton was like driving in any main highway in L.A or london. the roads were clean traffic was orderly and there were flyovers and highrises. then we landed at the bombay airport. well there was no airconditioning working, its was filthy, smelly, everything was made out of cheap plastic the people were rude and then there were beggars everywhere. then we get on the road and i saw slums poverty beggars overcrowded buses bleching out smokes it was scary. if india reduceds its poveryt we didnt see it.
> but ourhotel was nice and was pleased with it . it was called hotel taj i think and most of us just did our business and stayed within the hotel and didnt get out at all.. becuz it was way too scary.


 
i agree with you...i also had the same experience when i landed in mumbai (last dec) and i was taken aback at the state of the airport.

Rt now the GOI has planned to modernise the delhi and mumbai airport by involving pvt builders.So after that it shud be ok,so watch otu the next time u come to mumbai,u might be in for a surprise.!!!

mumbai is one of the most congested and ugliest city in india ( for me) with its own share of rich neigbourhood.I hate mumbai and have loved Blore,Hyderdbad and Delhi.


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## sigatoka

Owais said:


> and have foreign excahnge reserves of $126+ billions. and we just have $11.6billions.


 

I am getting sick of this foreign exchange reserves crap, we dont live in the 17th century. Maximization of foreign reserves is a goal that was rightfully left behind in the 17th century.


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## sigatoka

Comanche said:


> my cousin went to india last month as part of a NGO and they said it is even worse that sudan and haiti. the india we see on tv is not the same india you see in reality.instead of spending $20 billion a year on defense it should feed its 700 million dirt poor people who have no axcess to clean water or even toilets!


 
India will be a global power before it becomes a rich nation, 700 million dirt poor you say? Well that leaves 300 million people which is more than the population of the U.S.A.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Neo

Kaiser said:


> I dont see anything wrong that satan is doing accept telling the truth.Pakistan in the future will surely be a reginial and world hub for oil,gas,IT and what not. While in the past decade Indian poverty remained at the same level while last year alone we ruduced poverty by 6-7% and inshallah by 2015 will remove it entirely!


 
The reality is that Indian GDP stands at $748 billion against Pakistan's $115 billion.
GAP between the countries becomes even bigger using the PPP formula!
India has bigger economy and higher growth rate, so we have a lot of catching up to do.
We're doeing just fine, but still not good enough to outplay India!

Our economy recorded 8.4% growth last years due some inconstant factors but growth has been downscaled to 6.5-7% while Indian growth will exceed 7% AGAIN this year.


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## SMC

Listen guys, don't be so pro-indian, cause the indians will never say anything positive about Pakistan in return. Their main task is to spread as much lies and propaganda about Pakistan as possible.


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## Comanche

Neo said:


> The reality is that Indian GDP stands at $748 billion against Pakistan's $115 billion.
> GAP between the countries becomes even bigger using the PPP formula!
> India has bigger economy and higher growth rate, so we have a lot of catching up to do.
> We're doeing just fine, but still not good enough to outplay India!
> 
> Our economy recorded 8.4% growth last years due some inconstant factors but growth has been downscaled to 6.5-7% while Indian growth will exceed 7% AGAIN this year.




but then indias popolation is also 1 billion creatures and paskitans is only 160 millions so india is almost 10 times bigger too and the econmiy is also bigger.


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## Bull

sigatoka said:


> India will be a global power before it becomes a rich nation, 700 million dirt poor you say? Well that leaves 300 million people which is more than the population of the U.S.A.


 
Its other way around 300mn poor people,Indians poverty level is less than 25% as per WB reports.I admit that even thats a big figure.


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## Bull

Neo said:


> The reality is that Indian GDP stands at $748 billion against Pakistan's $115 billion.
> GAP between the countries becomes even bigger using the PPP formula!
> India has bigger economy and higher growth rate, so we have a lot of catching up to do.
> We're doeing just fine, but still not good enough to outplay India!
> 
> Our economy recorded 8.4% growth last years due some inconstant factors but growth has been downscaled to 6.5-7% while Indian growth will exceed 7% AGAIN this year.


 
This is no competition.india is not in a competition to become the worlds uno economy,bcoz of the shher size of the country when it grows it had global proportions thats it.

Pakistan is doing good in its own sense,i have reports which suggests the pak real eststae has been booming and is almost on the verge of peaking out.


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## Bull

Ahsan_R said:


> Listen guys, don't be so pro-indian, cause the indians will never say anything positive about Pakistan in return. Their main task is to spread as much lies and propaganda about Pakistan as possible.


 
Ahsan...not from you...:embarassed:


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## Bull

sigatoka said:


> I am getting sick of this foreign exchange reserves crap, we dont live in the 17th century. Maximization of foreign reserves is a goal that was rightfully left behind in the 17th century.


 
No one is trying to maximise forex reserve.

What matters is how does a forex reserve maximise???


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## Bull

Comanche said:


> but mr prasant. as part of a group we went to karachi from montreal and the minute i landed at the airport i thouth i was in heathrow or changi airport. everything was world class and the drive from the airpiort to the sheraton was like driving in any main highway in L.A or london. the roads were clean traffic was orderly and there were flyovers and highrises. then we landed at the bombay airport. well there was no airconditioning working, its was filthy, smelly, everything was made out of cheap plastic the people were rude and then there were beggars everywhere. then we get on the road and i saw slums poverty beggars overcrowded buses bleching out smokes it was scary. if india reduceds its poveryt we didnt see it.
> but ourhotel was nice and was pleased with it . it was called hotel taj i think and most of us just did our business and stayed within the hotel and didnt get out at all.. becuz it was way too scary.


 
this is for u an article that came in TOI abt the mumbai losing its sheen.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/quickies/1481634.cms


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## A.Rahman

Comanche said:


> yes imsoree if i offent but my english isnt very good and im very honest and blunt


 
Please register in class of speech manipulation and deception


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## Spring Onion

Ahsan_R said:


> Listen guys, don't be so pro-indian, cause the indians will never say anything positive about Pakistan in return. Their main task is to spread as much lies and propaganda about Pakistan as possible.



:thumbsup: they are at best on this front and we had to accept it


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## Bull

Jana said:


> :thumbsup: they are at best on this front and we had to accept it


 
janaaaaaaaaaa....


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## Spring Onion

Prashant said:


> janaaaaaaaaaa....




Sorry no offense was meant, im seriouse i think and i had observed it that ur countrymen and leaders are very good at propoganda and i tell i used to listen to All India Radio when i was in school 8th grade and from there i had learned how Indian media and journalist use affective propoganda against Pakistan and i think its a skill u r very good at.


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## Owais

sigatoka said:


> I am getting sick of this foreign exchange reserves crap, we dont live in the 17th century. Maximization of foreign reserves is a goal that was rightfully left behind in the 17th century.


 
you meant to say that foreign exchange reserves have no participation in country's economy:crazy2: . and yes, we don't live in 17th century. that's why china's reserves are touching $1trillion. BTW: these are the key indicators to attract FDI.


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## Neo

Ahsan_R said:


> Listen guys, don't be so pro-indian, cause the indians will never say anything positive about Pakistan in return.


Sir with all respect, being realistic doesn't mean being pro-indian.


> Their main task is to spread as much lies and propaganda about Pakistan as possible.


Agreed, but as a moderate person I still have the choice wether or not to reply evil with evil.

Like I already posted above, there's no fair comparison between the two countries, they are both doing fine.
Lets just focus on our side, not the other one. :thumbsup:


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## SMC

Neo said:


> Sir with all respect, being realistic doesn't mean being pro-indian.
> 
> Agreed, but as a moderate person I still have the choice wether or not to reply evil with evil.
> 
> Like I already posted above, there's no fair comparison between the two countries, they are both doing fine.
> Lets just focus on our side, not the other one. :thumbsup:


I seriously would focus on our side, but you know with the 24/7 propaganda, incredible amount of lies, obession with Pakistan, etc etc, you should realize that the indians focus quite a bit on our side when they probably have more problems than we do. When we do it in return, they start whining.


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## Neo

I'm very well aware of this problem Ahsan, we're confronted with this phenomena on every single forum there is!
But like I posted above, should we treat evil with evil?
Then there would be no difference between the moderate community and trolls, lets not do that!

Our board is a clean one, full of rolemodels from both side. 
I'm proud of them! :thumbsup:


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## EagleEyes

RAPTOR said:


> Alas, we experience it on this forum as well. one hears the constant whinning and screaming by the indians if someone exposes the truth about their mother india.


 
If you want to teach them the truth you do it in a *CORRECT* manner, and *DONOT* taunt them. We will treat everyone equal, and every one has opinion and freedom of speech, but it comes with respect and responsiblity.

If you can't handle it, suspensions will be given as a treat.

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## RAPTOR

WebMaster said:


> If you want to teach them the truth you do it in a *CORRECT* manner, and *DONOT* taunt them. We will treat everyone equal, and every one has opinion and freedom of speech, but it comes with respect and responsiblity.
> 
> If you can't handle it, suspensions will be given as a treat.


 

 there goes webby, showing us the size of his Thunder Bolt again  

What is the correct way to tell them? please let us know before you hand out our suspensions


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## EagleEyes

Well if you would have known some forum etiquettes and some simple rules you wouldn't ask this question. 

The only acceptable behaviour is talk to them as they are your friends or be neutral. You DONOT taunt, pick sides, or show your extreme view to them. These only encourages flame wars, rude comments from both sides than discussing, solving, and changing each others views or correcting them. Talk with sources, concisely, and in a professional manner!

DONOT CONSIDER THEM A THREAT OR YOUR ENEMY! 

If you can't do that then its simple that you have not cover up the immaturity rate or your too young to discuss and debate, and for that matter there is no place for such person in this forum.

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## RAPTOR

WebMaster said:


> Well if you would have known some forum etiquettes and some simple rules you wouldn't ask this question.
> 
> The only acceptable behaviour is talk to them as they are your friends or be neutral. You DONOT taunt, pick sides, or show your extreme view to them. These only encourages flame wars, rude comments from both sides than discussing, solving, and changing each others views or correcting them. Talk with sources, concisely, and in a professional manner!
> 
> DONOT CONSIDER THEM A THREAT OR YOUR ENEMY!
> 
> If you can't do that then its simple that you have not cover up the immaturity rate or your too young to discuss and debate, and for that matter there is no place for such person in this forum.


 
Yup i agree :thumbsup:


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## sigatoka

Neo said:


> The reality is that Indian GDP stands at $748 billion against Pakistan's $115 billion.
> GAP between the countries becomes even bigger using the PPP formula!
> India has bigger economy and higher growth rate, so we have a lot of catching up to do.
> We're doeing just fine, but still not good enough to outplay India!


 
Your problem Neo is that you are concentrating too much on short term economic growth which can't be affected much but by affecting demand which can place inflationary pressures. Pakistan recently has been addressing important supply side issues particulary and most importantly FDI. Foreign Direct Investment coupled with Freerer trade is the difference between India and China. India has been moving much more slowly compared to Pakistan in relation to FDI. It is too slow in reducing restrictions which will be telling in the ten-15 year period which is when supply side changes implemented today begin to have effect. 

If Pakistan is to overtake India in economic size it must tear down the restrictions on trade which take the form of quatas (terrible) and tarriffs (very bad). It must also tear down the restrictions to Foreign Direct Investment which is stifling economic growth. The government should increase spending on Roads, Airports, Ports and Hospitals which are very poor and which would give high social returns. 


China's blistering economic growth has come about because of its changed attitude towards trade and FDI. It has also not shied away from investing in Roads, Ports, Airports and other infrastructure projects like India and Pakistan.


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## sigatoka

Bull said:


> Its other way around 300mn poor people,Indians poverty level is less than 25% as per WB reports.I admit that even thats a big figure.


 
i was being generous when i used 300m. Middle income people number 75m according to other reports.

25% poverty means terrible poverty. Not the kind of poverty that other nations use to describe poverty. By Aust. standards, 75% of Indians are poor.


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## sigatoka

Bull said:


> What matters is how does a forex reserve maximise???


 
This is weird, waht do you mean?


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## sigatoka

Owais said:


> you meant to say that foreign exchange reserves have no participation in country's economy:crazy2: . and yes, we don't live in 17th century. that's why china's reserves are touching $1trillion. BTW: these are the key indicators to attract FDI.


 
You are a fool. China's attraction of FDI have little to do with its foreign reserves. Increasing foreign reserves is a way to reduce unemployment but it can lead to inflationary pressures. 

The ideal of maximising of Foreign Reserves (in those days gold bullion) was thouroghly discredited in the 18th century when it was realised that maximising consumption was the correct. Increasing Foreign Reserves should only be used when it maximizes long term consumption ONLY. 

When all nations start doing what you say, you end up with a bunch of idiots and hyperinflation all round.


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## Bull

sigatoka said:


> i was being generous when i used 300m. Middle income people number 75m according to other reports.
> 
> 25% poverty means terrible poverty. Not the kind of poverty that other nations use to describe poverty. By Aust. standards, 75% of Indians are poor.


 
There si only one accepted standard of calculating poverty level and according to that only 25% is below poverty level and was above 45% in 1960s.

According to the latest figures, as measured by PakistanÃ¢â¬â¢s poverty line, 32.6 percent of the population is poor-Word bank Aug 2005.


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## Bull

sigatoka said:


> This is weird, waht do you mean?


 
I missed outon the word manage.

I meant what matters is how we manage the forex reserve.

Off late RBI has increased the amount of money that can be used by indian corporates to make acquisitions abroad.

If u notice there are lot of Indian companies using this forex cushion to takeover companies abroad.


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## RAPTOR

sigatoka said:


> i was being generous when i used 300m. Middle income people number 75m according to other reports.
> 
> 25% poverty means terrible poverty. Not the kind of poverty that other nations use to describe poverty. By Aust. standards, 75% of Indians are poor.


 

Are you sure its even 75 million? By U.N standards there are 600 million indians living BELOW the poverty line and thats being generous.


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## Bull

RAPTOR said:


> Are you sure its even 75 million? By U.N standards there are 600 million indians living BELOW the poverty line and thats being generous.


 
After australian standard now its the UN standard.

Can u enlighten us on where u found this info?


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## RAPTOR

sigatoka said:


> i was being generous when i used 300m. Middle income people number 75m according to other reports.
> 
> 25% poverty means terrible poverty. Not the kind of poverty that other nations use to describe poverty. By Aust. standards, 75% of Indians are poor.


 

There are various reports, but i wouldnt trust an indian source at all. They are excellent at hiding facts and misrepresenting the truth. Below is an example.. 


"The 1995 U.S. Army area handbook on India reported that the number below the official poverty line had leaped from 26 percent to 38 percent in the prior six years, afflicting 130 million additional people. The Indian government&#8217;s response was to lower its poverty standards! Now &#8220;only&#8221; 25 percent of the current population, or 260 million people, ostensibly live below the new poverty line. But the World Bank contradicts this assessment. It places 35 percent of India&#8217;s current population below &#8220;absolute poverty&#8221; standards. "

Source-http://www.pww.org/article/view/7471/1/280/


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## RAPTOR

*Child marriages: India fares poor in UN list*TOUFIQ RASHID [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Posted online: Thursday, October 13, 2005 at 0034 hours IST[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif]*NEW DELHI, OCTOBER 12: *Over 50 per cent of India&#8217;s girls are married before they turn 18. These and other grim figures are presented in the UN Population Fund report on the State of the World Population 2005, released yesterday. The report sounds an alarm for efforts in the fight against poverty, naming gender discrimination as one of the greatest factors hampering international attempts to eliminate world poverty. The report&#8212;which coincides with the 60th anniversary of the United Nations Charter where equal rights of men and women have been enshrined&#8212;said that a lack of access to family planning and reproductive health are closely linked to poverty and productivity. 

India&#8217;s case, the report quotes a survey conducted in Madhya Pradesh in 1998, according to which, 14 per cent girls in India are married between the age of 10 and 14. The report goes on to emphasise the negative impact of child marriage on reproductive health. &#8216;&#8216;Married adolescent girls have limited power to influence childbearing or contraceptive decisions, with implications for infant health and survival, maternal mortality, HIV, high fertility and poverty reduction,&#8217;&#8217; it said. 
According to the report, girls in the age group of 10 to 14 years are more likely to die in pregnancy or childbirth than women aged 20 to 24. Girls aged 15 to 19 are twice as likely to die&#8212;the vast majority of maternal deaths take place in this age group. India also has the highest levels of violence in the home against women married at the age of 18 or younger, with 70 per cent of those surveyed having experienced beating. According to the report, such women are more likely to be beaten or threatened and are more likely to believe that a husband might be justified in beating his wife. 


-India currently has over 5 million people who are infected with the AIDS virus.[/FONT]


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## Jay_

RAPTOR said:


> There are various reports, but i wouldnt trust an indian source at all. They are excellent at hiding facts and misrepresenting the truth. Below is an example..


If you have various reports, then post them. Do you mean to say that you cannot find one neutral report that agrees with your numbers?? 



> "The 1995 U.S. Army area handbook on India reported that the number below the official poverty line had leaped from 26 percent to 38 percent in the prior six years, afflicting 130 million additional people.It places 35 percent of IndiaÃ¢â¬â¢s current population below Ã¢â¬Åabsolute povertyÃ¢â¬Â standards. "


This is year 2006.


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## sigatoka

RAPTOR said:


> *Child marriages: India fares poor in UN list*http://www.indianexpress.com/grfx/trans.gifhttp://www.indianexpress.com/grfx/trans.gifTOUFIQ RASHID [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Posted online: Thursday, October 13, 2005 at 0034 hours IST[/FONT]
> 
> http://www.indianexpress.com/grfx/trans.gif
> [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif]*NEW DELHI, OCTOBER 12: *Over 50 per cent of IndiaÃ¢â¬â¢s girls are married before they turn 18. .[/FONT]


 

Problems should be attacked directly, if forced marriages are the problem illegalise it. If pregnancy is the problem, impose taxes on the births before a certain age. If HIV is the problem, subsidize condoms or crackdown on prostitution and promiscuity. 


I dont know Raptor, what is the solution to ban marriages below 18? Why not 17 or 16 or 15??

Every number that is chosen is arbitary. If pregnancy is to be prevented than shouldnt the legal age of sex be lifted with the min marriage age? What if two consenting people wish to marry at 16, why should the government be allowed to prevent it? 

The attitutes of the U.N. is twisted towards population reduction which is conflated with the idea of poverty. Since the day of Maltus and his discredited theory we still have this theory floating around that population growth is intrinsicly negative. The economic problems of India, Pakistan, Egypt and Nigeria is due to pathetic economic policies and corruption. It has very little to do with population growth. 

The African continent (below Sahara) which is the poorest in the world is also one with one of the lowest GDP per capita. In fact those in the U.N. who propose population reduction should be euthanised at 65 because it would be unfair for them to rely on pensions paid by young people who they wanted nto to exist. 

Of course i am not saying that the world can support an infintie population, but reason must be used in analysing these issues.


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## Jay_

In India, any one above the age of 18 can make independent decisions regarding their marriage. Marriages under 18 are banned by law and is a punishable crime.

The backward states of India have this problem, coz of lack of education and awareness.

The UN finds a correlation between the girl's age to death in pregnancies. The girl's is expected to be fully developed body wise and mentally at 18. Its not a hard and fast rule, but just the average.


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## Lilo

Comanche said:


> *because india has a history of doing menial jobs for other people and this way they make $$* and add to their economy and
> also india is also a huge market. but still its very poor and dirty and *way too many ugly people*.*but the people living next to pakistan arent bad looking because they are closer to the border i guess*.


 
what do u mean by menial jobs? huh?
Do u know what dignity of labour is? for ur info every person is working under some other guy and that doesnt mean that he is inferior to him.People taking up the outsoursing jobs are satisfied with their decision most importantly they are not working as pseudo bonded labour as was the case with the rural population 20-30 years ago.These people are jus graduates with a degree from an ordinary college and they are in taht job since they are best to that job and there is no dearth of opportunity in india and if a person feels that he is too gud to be in an outsoursed job he can always look to move up and there are lots of openings to take him up.

What u cant tolerate to look at ugly people? u poor thing...

P.s:admin sorry for the personal comment couldnt help it after seeing his hilarious discourse on ugly people. 



Comanche said:


> but mr prasant. as part of a group we went to karachi from montreal and the minute i landed at the airport i thouth i was in heathrow or changi airport. everything was world class and the drive from the airpiort to the sheraton was like driving in any main highway in L.A or london. the roads were clean traffic was orderly and there were flyovers and highrises. then we landed at the bombay airport. well there was no airconditioning working, its was filthy, smelly, everything was made out of cheap plastic the people were rude and then there were beggars everywhere. then we get on the road and i saw slums poverty beggars overcrowded buses bleching out smokes it was scary. if india reduceds its poveryt we didnt see it.
> but ourhotel was nice and was pleased with it . it was called hotel taj i think and most of us just did our business and stayed within the hotel and didnt get out at all.. becuz it was way too scary.


 
i suggest u read this article and realise that ornamental facades in countries like china,pak are just superficial and are particularly meant to impress people like you who just jump on the bandwagon on word go.


*India vs. China: Who Has the Edge?*


Monday, January 30, 2006
[Jeremy Siegel, Ph.D.]

China and India are likely to be the dominant economic powers by the middle of this century but in many respects they are remarkably different.

Here and in my next column I will analyze the prospects for economic growth and investment in these two emerging giants based in part on a two-week tour of India I just completed and a visit to China eighteen months earlier.

First Impressions Can Be Deceiving

*The contrast between your first impression of China and India could scarcely be more extreme. You arrive at China's financial capital, Shanghai's new Pudong International Airport, and walk through spacious, clean corridors to the world's fastest train, the Maglev. Your 30 km (18.6 miles) trip takes only eight minutes on this train that floats magnetically above the tracks and reaches speeds of 430 kph (267 miles per hour). From the Longyang Road Metro Station at the outskirts of the city, an air-conditioned taxi takes you to the Grand Hyatt Hotel. As you exit the car you marvel at the other towering skyscrapers that surround the world's highest hotel, located on the 53rd to 87th floors of the Jin Mao Tower.*

*Contrast that with a trip to Mumbai, the financial capital of India. You arrive at the decrepit Mumbai International Airport, fight your way through crowds of beggars and unsolicited "helpers" before finding a taxi that takes to you your hotel at the southern edge of Mumbai. Although the trip is only 20 km (12.4 miles), the ride may take 90 minutes or more. There is no direct route as the driver wends his way through side streets trying to find the least crowded route.*

*Abject poverty lines the road. Millions have flocked to this city seeking employment, many with only tents or cardboard walls as housing. No sanitation facilities are to be seen. When the traffic stops, young children and women holding babies approach your car, tapping on the windows, begging for a few rupees.*

*As you progress to the southern end of the city, more substantial buildings come into view. Yet the vast majority of the structures, especially the rental units, are poorly constructed and dirty from the daily assault of polluted air. Most of the architecture of note in Mumbai was built before the First World War, primarily by the British. You finally arrive at your hotel, The Taj Palace on the Arabian Sea, built in 1903.*

*From these two realities one might wonder why anyone would ever consider investing in India over China. Ranking the two countries on infrastructure - roads, airports, and new buildings, China looks like a ten and India hovers close to zero.*


*Winds are Changing*

But India is changing, and changing rapidly. The Mumbai Stock Exchange's Index of 30 blue chip companies has more than tripled in the last 2ÃÂ½ years, far outpacing the China's stock returns. And although China's stupendous economic growth rate still surpasses India's, India has now reached the 6% plus rate of GDP growth that marks the emergence of a developing country.

What has caused this new look at India? Underneath the surface, India's ledger is lined with pluses that compensate for its woeful exterior.

Language, Government and Freedom of the Press


The fact that the educated classes all know English gives Indians a comparative advantage in the growing informational sciences and services, while the Chinese advantage still resides in manufacturing. The world's ÃÂ¬lingua franca, especially in the business and scientific world, is English and that unquestionably gives a leg up to those who know it. Our guide in Jodhpur said that there are two things that he wants his son to learn in school: English and computers. That knowledge, he said, opened up the opportunities for his people.


Government

Eighteen months ago, when I offered an excited view of China's commercial future, doubters frequently asked: "How is this possible under an avowedly 'communist' government." I believe China will evolve into a more democratic political system as it pulls itself out of poverty and feels the pressure of a growing middle class.

Although this political evolution is likely, it is by no means a sure thing. Yet for India a democracy already exists, and it has withstood many crises. Furthermore India enjoys an independent judiciary, a critical adjunct to a democratic system.

Democracy is the best system in which power can evolve from the private sector, not from dictates of the government. As far as the politics are concerned, there are no reservations about India.

Rule of Law and Meritocracy

It is well known that the Chinese are master copiers, and openly sell merchandise sporting pirated designer labels or hawk intellectual property that is easily downloaded in our digital world. Although this also exists in India, it does so to a far lesser extent.

Private enterprise, private property and the rule of law has been the norm in India since the British occupation. In contrast, until recently, the Chinese government owned and controlled everything. In fact, in Forbes' latest list of the world's wealthiest people, 12 Indians made the list and only two Chinese. And there is a growing consensus in India that this wealth creation can help everybody rise, not just those at the top.

Education

India is built on a meritocracy where performance on exams dictates jobs and admission to the top-ranked schools. At the top, India's education system is as good as any, and the Indian Institute of Technology (IIT) rivals MIT as the world's producer of top scientists.

Furthermore the Indian Institute of Management recently had 200,000 applications for only 250 seats at its top Ahmedabad campus, a ratio that puts the Ivy League' selectivity to shame. Although India does have an "affirmative action" program for those in the lowest castes, the private sector is not subject to these quotas and therefore is free to hire "the best and the brightest."

There's no doubt that China is also developing top schools, both in science and in business. The latter is particularly important to China since the Communist system is filled with managers of state-owned enterprises that are woefully inadequate in a private-sector economy. India is ahead of China in this area.

Indian education at the lower levels is not nearly as good as at the top. In fact, several experts I talked to put "education" above "infrastructure" and India's number one priority. Nevertheless, the excellence of education at the top has given Indians a great deal of pride in their ability to achieve world-class excellence, and it has been a strong democratizing influence in a society that has been mired in a rigidly hierarchical caste system.

Where's the Money?

India lags in the hard infrastructure of roads, airports, and buildings, but leads in the "soft" infrastructure of democratic institutions, free press, and an independent judiciary. 

http://finance.yahoo.com/columnist/article/futureinvest/2369?p=1

*Admin Edit and Note: If he is hitting ignore, we are going to edit it, you "responding" back will lead to a flame and nothing useful.*

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## Lilo

And china has its list of fundemental flaws behind its glittering cities and meandering flyovers.

Some transcripts from articles written by John chan on WSWS.org

WSWS International Editorial Board meeting*
The implications of China for world socialism*
Part One,two and three
By John Chan
9 March 2006

More fundamental than the immediate economic problems is the social disaster created by the anarchy of the market and the concentration of wealth in the most privileged layers of the society. A UN Development Program reported in December that China&#8217;s Gini co-efficient&#8212;the internationally-recognised measure of social inequality&#8212;has increased to 0.45, the same level as American society. The UN report pointed out that this gulf between rich and poor was created in just a generation and warned that the process has generated enormous hardship and dislocation for hundreds of millions of people.

Important social gains of the 1949 revolution, such as public education and universal healthcare, have been cut to the bone. The deregulation of industry has caused some of the worst pollution and safety records in the world. By 2010, China is likely to become the world&#8217;s biggest producer of greenhouse gases. The human carnage of capitalist production is best exemplified in China&#8217;s coal mining industry. China is the world&#8217;s largest producer of coal, which it achieves through mass low-cost labour rather than the use of machinery. As energy demands have skyrocketted, so has the annual death toll in the mines. Many other Chinese industries are no less barbaric.

This is Chinese capitalism: labour intensive, oppressive to workers and socially unjust as well as being completely anarchic and environmentally destructive. Official corruption, drug addiction, prostitution and all the other social evils from the pre-revolutionary era have been brought back. As China and India become the new benchmarks for wages and conditions around the world, these economic processes are rapidly intensifying class tensions within China and internationally.

The implications of growing unrest

The result is rising social discontent and widespread hostility among workers and peasants toward the regime. According to the latest figures released in January by China&#8217;s Ministry of Public Security, the number of protests and riots increased by 6.6 percent to 87,000 in 2005. In a plea to the public, a ministry spokesman said: &#8220;We hope the masses will express their appeals through lawful channels and consciously safeguard public order and respect laws to resolve problems in a harmonious and an orderly way.&#8221;

What does this increasing social discontent signify? It is an expression of extreme social polarisation between rich and poor, with almost no social buffer between the regime and the masses.

One of the bloodiest clashes between authorities and protestors took place in December when Chinese paramilitary police units armed with automatic weapons shot and killed a number of villagers in the southern province of Guangdong. This is the first reported incident in which the Chinese government has used firearms to suppress a protest since the Tiananmen massacre.

The incident alarmed the US-based think tank Stratfor, which commented on the social explosion brewing in China. &#8220;This is an explosive mixture in any country, but particularly so in China, which has a tradition of revolution and unrest. The idea that the farmers will simply walk away from their land or that the unemployed will just head back to the countryside is simplistic. There are massive social movements in play that combine the two most powerful forces in China: workers and peasants,&#8221; it stated.

&#8220;The important thing to note is that both the quantity and intensity of these confrontations is increasing. While the Western media focus on the outer shell of China&#8217;s economic growth&#8212;the side that is visible in Western hotels throughout major cities&#8212;the Chinese masses are experiencing simultaneously both the costs of industralisation and the costs of economic failure. The sum of this equation is unrest. The question is how far the unrest will go.

&#8220;At the moment, there does not appear to be any national organization that speaks for the farmers or unemployed workers. The uprisings are local, driven by particular issues, and are not coordinated on any national scale. The one group that tried to create a national resistance, Falun Gong, has been marginalized by the Chinese government. China&#8217;s security forces are capable, growing and effective. They have prevented the emergence of any nationalized opposition thus far.

&#8220;At the same time, the growing and intensification of unrest is there for anyone to exploit. It won&#8217;t go away, because the underlying economic processes cannot readily be brought under control. In China, as elsewhere, the leadership cadre of any mass movement has been made up of intellectuals. But between Tiananmen Square and jobs in Westernized industries, the Chinese intellectuals have been either cowed or hired. China is now working hard to keep these flashpoint issues local and to placate localities that reach the boiling point&#8212;at least until later, when arrests can be made. That is what they are doing in Shanwei [where the police shooting took place]. The process is working. But as the economy continues to simultaneously grow and worsen, the social unrest will have to spread.&#8221;

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2006/mar2006/cha1-m09.shtml
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2006/mar2006/cha2-m10.shtml
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2006/mar2006/cha3-m11.shtml

There are scores of other articles in this site outlining the problems faced by China and the indian subcontinent on challenges faced by them in their respective quest towards development.I suggest u read some of them
as they provide a picture of the other side of the coin unlike most mainstream news articles which provide a rosy picture and gloat over superficial facades.

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## sigatoka

Lilo said:


> And china has its list of fundemental flaws behind its glittering cities and meandering flyovers.


 
Lilo get off the drugs, China's economy is not only THREE TIMES as big as India's; It is still growing faster than India and forecasted to grow faster as well. The gap between China and India is GROWING not getting smaller. The fundamentals of the Chinese economy is stronger than that of U.S. let alone India. Chinese economic growth is built upon the embrace of trade, FDI and thus the transfer of surplus labour from Agriculture to manufacturing and Services. 

India is nowwhere near and within the next 15 years the Chinese economy will overtake the U.S. (China's economy is 7trillion and U.S. is around 13 trillion both @ PPP) while China is growing at 2.5 times as fast as U.S. U.S. economic growth in the last six years has been built upon excessive consumption @ the expense of saving on the part of consumers built on dramatic increase in house values and large unsustainable Tax cuts as well as stimulatory government spending on military. All these things have been leading to inflationary pressures. 

India's problem is a twin problem. Firstly the backward policy is that towards trade. It is stifled with quotas and tarriffs. Second problem is attitude towards FDI. These two factors alone would account for a potential growth lost of around 2%. 

In the last five years it has been Pakistan not India which has tackled the oppressive restrictions on trade and FDI more decisivly. Such supply side changes will manifest within five to ten years and it will be Pakistan which will be in a stronger postion to achieve higher economic growth, not India. 

India has also shot itself in the foot by rejecting the Gas pipline deal with Iran. Paksitan has alreday benefited by cheaper gas from Iran.

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## Neo

Good post Sigatoka!
Keep posting! :thumbsup:


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## sword9

sigatoka said:


> India has also shot itself in the foot by rejecting the Gas pipline deal with Iran. Paksitan has alreday benefited by cheaper gas from Iran.


Sig,
You may want to view this in another way, India may have rejected the Iran-Pak gas pipline because of the geo-political interest that puts the future of the IPI project in jeapordy. While the Myanmar-India pipeline is a relatively peaceful region.

Secondly, the economics of the IPI gas pipeline may not work for cheap gas for India. Read the article in the link below. Those conservant with economics and its nuances maybe able to through some light on the fears pointed out in the article below.



> Gas from Iran may cost India dear
> 
> March 21, 2005
> 
> 
> *T*he proposal of setting up a gas pipeline from Iran to India via Pakistan seems to be gaining momentum with Iran agreeing to take responsibility for delivering the gas to the Indian border, rather than to just its border with Pakistan, thereby accepting transit risks inside Pakistan.
> Also, Iran is said to be offering to guarantee additional liquefied natural gas in case of a disruption in pipeline gas supplies.
> The bad news for prospective Indian buyers is that Iran is proposing that LNG pricing terms be one of the key benchmarks to price pipeline gas for prospective Indian buyers. "It will be the cheapest gas to India," says Iranian Petroleum Minister Bijan Zangeneh.
> It looks anything but cheap. Given Iran's recent 20 per cent hike in LNG prices, high construction costs due to tough terrain, security charges and Pakistan's demand for steep transit fees, gas through a 2,600-km Iran-India pipeline could end up being too expensive for Indian users' tastes.
> As a thumb rule, it is cheaper to send gas through a pipeline when distances between gas fields and markets are less than 1,000 km. LNG, which involves more than a billion dollars in investments in a liquefaction facility and specialised carriers to transport gas and a regassifaction terminal, becomes viable only when distances exceed 1,000 km.....
> http://in.rediff.com/money/2005/mar/21guest2.htm


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## Field Marshal

sword9 said:


> Sig,
> You may want to view this in another way, India may have rejected the Iran-Pak gas pipline because of the geo-political interest that puts the future of the IPI project in jeapordy. While the Myanmar-India pipeline is a relatively peaceful region.
> 
> Secondly, the economics of the IPI gas pipeline may not work for cheap gas for India. Read the article in the link below. Those conservant with economics and its nuances maybe able to through some light on the fears pointed out in the article below.



rediff is a biased website promoting only hate material against opponents of India so i think the artilce is also a followup of that aimed at justifying the decision of (if taken) rejcting the IPI gas pipeline project.

If the project was rejected by India it will be clearly due to US pressure after she struck a deal with India over nuclear energy.
But lets hope it not happens as i heard India is still in the project.


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## Neo

sword9 said:


> Sig,
> You may want to view this in another way, India may have rejected the Iran-Pak gas pipline because of the geo-political interest that puts the future of the IPI project in jeapordy. While the Myanmar-India pipeline is a relatively peaceful region.


Sword,

Myanmar's proven deposits are still too low, with current production they'll be out of gas within three decades.
Btw, Myanmar is exporting 10 billion mcf per year.

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## Bull

Field Marshal said:


> rediff is a biased website promoting only hate material against opponents of India so i think the artilce is also a followup of that aimed at justifying the decision of (if taken) rejcting the IPI gas pipeline project.
> 
> If the project was rejected by India it will be clearly due to US pressure after she struck a deal with India over nuclear energy.
> But lets hope it not happens as i heard India is still in the project.


 
Dont look ate th emessenger,but look at the message.

Arent we all educated enough to decipher whats propoganda and whats good argument?

india has rejected the offer because during hostilities the pipleline wud have been shut for sure by pakistan.

There is a very good POV put forward by sword9.

Only way India could have had taken the deal is by having a bi-latertal agreement with Iran and not a tripatriate agreement.

India agrees to pay for what it recieves,whats lost shud be dealth by Pakistan and Iran.


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## Jay_

Neo said:


> Sword,
> Myanmar's proven deposits are still too low, with current production they'll be out of gas within three decades.
> Btw, Myanmar is exporting 10 billion mcf per year.



Neo,
Myanmar has a proven gas reserves of 18.53 TCF, while Iran has a proven reserves of about 27.5 TCF, not much of a difference in the realm of global oil quest.

The 4 Caspian states- Russia, Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan and Azerbaijan have a combined proven reserves of about 143 TCF.

So I think India is moving in the right direction by moving to buy Myanmar and Turkmenistan gas.


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## Neo

Jay_ said:


> Neo,
> Myanmar has a proven gas reserves of 18.53 TCF, while Iran has a proven reserves of about 27.5 TCF, not much of a difference in the realm of global oil quest.
> 
> The 4 Caspian states- Russia, Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan and Azerbaijan have a combined proven reserves of about 143 TCF.
> 
> So I think India is moving in the right direction by moving to buy Myanmar and Turkmenistan gas.


 
Jay, could you please provide me the link to support the claim?
Last time I checked CIA Worldfactbook, the reserves were signifacantly low!


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## Jay_

Neo,

My bad, Myanmar's proven reserves is in TCF while Iran's reserves are in TCM.

1 cubic meter = 35.3146667 cubic feet



But the rest of the stuff is good. Bonus point, TAP will have access to other Caspian gas reserves.

Pretty good info here,
http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/ieo/pdf/nat_gas.pdf


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## Jay_

Some more news to ponder, this is atleast a year old anyway.

*What if the Iran gas deal does not go through?*

Raghuvir Srinivasan

If the Iran gas deal does not go through, there may be ramifications for LNG prices in India as a major supply source is taken out. This shortfall would have to be met with new gas sourced at substantially higher prices.

BAD NEWS for some can be good news for others. The LNG (liquefied natural gas) deal with Iran appears to be unravelling to India's disadvantage due to various reasons. But that could be good news for at least two companies in the gas business in the country Ã¢â¬â Reliance Industries and Petronet LNG. Both are emerging big players and competitors in the natural gas industry. While Reliance is working on producing gas from its KG (Krishna-Godavari) basin field by 2008-09, Petronet LNG, having already proven the viability of importing and re-gasifying natural gas it for onward sale to users, is now on an ambitious expansion programme.

First on why the Iran deal may not happen. Even as New Delhi grapples with the nuances of the position that the country should take at the upcoming IAEA (International Atomic Energy Agency) meeting, it is increasingly becoming clear that the LNG deal may well unravel and for reasons not connected to the vote by India against Iran.

The United States appears to be leaning on American companies that are eager to supply equipment for the liquefaction of LNG in Iran. *Reports are that General Electric has refused to supply critical equipment for the liquefaction plant in Iran.*

Liquefaction is the process where gas is super-cooled to minus-161 degrees Centigrade when it becomes liquid. This liquid (LNG) is then transported through cryogenic vessels that maintain the low temperature and is then re-gasified into natural gas. GE's compressors are important equipment in this process and if it has indeed refused supplies, the liquefaction plant could be a non-starter.

*Besides this, the US can also prevent the transfer of the liquefaction technology developed by its companies. German company Linde has reportedly refused to give this technology to Iran, as Germany is one of the sponsors of the resolution to refer Iran to the United Nations Security Council.*

As the plot thickens on the nuclear violations controversy, it is unlikely that the Iran LNG deal will come through by 2009 as originally planned, which is bad news for India.

By 2009, the demand for natural gas is projected to run way ahead of supplies; Iran was a crucial supply source to bridge this gap. But this may buy time for Reliance Industries and Petronet LNG. Reliance's development of the KG basin is behind schedule, and the first commercial gas from this field is expected to flow by 2009, the same time the Iran LNG was supposed to arrive.

Similarly, Petronet LNG is planning to double its re-gasification capacity at Dahej, Gujarat, to 10 million tonnes and is also planning a second terminal and plant at Kochi of 2.5 million tonnes. The Dahej expansion could be complete by 2008, with the Kochi terminal following a couple of years from then.

To be sure, given the huge increase projected in demand, the Iran LNG was never a threat to either of these two companies. In fact, in Petronet's case there was talk that the LNG may be re-gasified at its expanded plant at Dahej and in Kochi, though this was never certain because Indian Oil was keen on setting up its own LNG plant.

A failure of the Iran deal would mean that domestic gas prices could settle at a higher level and we are not talking of APM (administered pricing mechanism) gas prices here, which will continue to be under government control anyway.

The possible failure of the deal holds ramifications for gas prices in the country as a major supply source is taken out.* LNG prices globally now hover at $8-$10 per million British thermal unit (MBTU) compared to the $2.5 that Petronet pays its supplier.*

The Iran LNG was priced just over $3 per MBTU, which is substantially lower than the prevailing global prices. If the deal falls through, this gap would have to be met with new gas sourced at substantially higher prices. Petronet is now negotiating for LNG supplies for its increased re-gasification capacity; these could be benchmarked to the prevailing global prices. The company will now have more freedom in price negotiations, as the unmet demand will be huge in the domestic market with little cheap gas available. This freedom in negotiating the price will certainly help in LNG sourcing.

Similarly, Reliance could get a much higher price than the $3 per MBTU that it quoted for the NTPC deal. This means that its project economics will look a couple of shades brighter.

There is one major assumption here though Ã¢â¬â that gas buyers in India such as power, fertiliser and petrochemical producers will be willing to pay market prices that are almost three times what they pay now under the APM.

They may hold out in the short-term, but in the long run with APM for gas gradually being phased out, they may have no option but to shift to the free-market gas. 

http://www.blonnet.com/iw/2005/10/30/stories/2005103000060800.htm


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## Neo

I don't like to take CIA Worldbook of Facts as an ultimate source, but here's the link anyway.
It contains list of world proven gas reserves in Cubic Meters countrywise.
Myanmar (Burma) is ranked 42 holding deposits of 283.2 billion Cu m, way below India and Pakistan!!
Current production stands at 9.98 billion, so there's just enough for a quarter of a century!

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2179rank.html

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## Jay_

Gas from Iran may cost India dear
Guest Column > Dinakar Sethuraman
March 21, 2005

The proposal of setting up a gas pipeline from Iran to India via Pakistan seems to be gaining momentum with Iran agreeing to take responsibility for delivering the gas to the Indian border, rather than to just its border with Pakistan, thereby accepting transit risks inside Pakistan.

Also, Iran is said to be offering to guarantee additional liquefied natural gas in case of a disruption in pipeline gas supplies.

The bad news for prospective Indian buyers is that Iran is proposing that LNG pricing terms be one of the key benchmarks to price pipeline gas for prospective Indian buyers. "It will be the cheapest gas to India," says Iranian Petroleum Minister Bijan Zangeneh.

It looks anything but cheap. *Given Iran's recent 20 per cent hike in LNG prices, high construction costs due to tough terrain, security charges and Pakistan's demand for steep transit fees, gas through a 2,600-km Iran-India pipeline could end up being too expensive for Indian users' tastes.*

As a thumb rule, it is cheaper to send gas through a pipeline when distances between gas fields and markets are less than 1,000 km. LNG, which involves more than a billion dollars in investments in a liquefaction facility and specialised carriers to transport gas and a regassifaction terminal, becomes viable only when distances exceed 1,000 km.

In general, cross-country pipelines are fewer in Asia compared to Europe and America. Singapore gets gas from Malaysia and Indonesia via three pipelines and Thailand gets gas from Myanmar.

None of the pipes cross a third country and so there are no transit fees involved. Moreover, the length of the pipelines are well within 1,000 km.

The Iran-Pakistan-India pipeline project was never cheap to begin with, given the political and security risks and the hostile terrain. Nearly 1,100 km of the pipe lies in Iran, 990 km in Pakistan and 510 km in India.

In Pakistan the pipeline traverses Balochistan, a hostile territory outside Islamabad's control. A report by the US National Intelligence Council and the CIA forecast a "Yugoslav-like fate" for Pakistan in a decade with the country riven by civil war, bloodshed and inter-provincial rivalries, as seen recently in Balochistan.

Militant Balochi tribesmen, revolting against Islamabad's policies of stripping a resource-rich province, attacked the Sui gas field, which supplies nearly 45 per cent of the county's gas, cutting off supplies to the commercial capital of Karachi and other cities, for a few days. The Balochis would care less for a pipeline to India.

BHP Billiton plans to bury the entire pipeline one metre below the ground. Compressor stations to pump the gas will be installed every 100 km and these will be clothed in concrete armour.

"It can withstand rocket attacks," says an official. In addition, BHP plans to have armed patrols and to install sensors all along the route. *All this does not come cheap, especially for a 2600-km stretch.*

Transit fees further add to the project cost. Project participants remain far apart on one critical cost component -- transit fees. Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf has been quoted as expecting fees as high as $700 million a year.

However, Iftikhar Rashid, a spokesman for Pakistan's ministry of petroleum, told an Iranian paper that Pakistan would get only $70 million to $80 million in transit fees, based on typical charges in other parts of the world.

He termed $500 million to $600 million "an exaggerated and fabricated figure" that "India would never accept."

Political risks cannot be ignored. G Parthasarathy, a former Indian high commissioner to Pakistan, said in a recent article: "Less than a decade ago when our high commissioner Satish Chandra asked Pakistan's then president Farookh Leghari what guarantees he could give that Pakistan not halt energy supplies to India, Leghari told Chandra that as

India-Pakistan conflicts had never lasted beyond a few weeks, supplies would, at best be interrupted by Pakistan for a few weeks."

Finance charges and political-risk guarantees increase because of political and security risks. BHP officials insist that all three countries should take equity in the pipeline project to guarantee the success of the project.

*An investment banker from Sumitomo Banking Corporation said that financing costs are likely to be high for an Iran-India pipe because of the inherent risks associated with the project.*

Unlike Qatar, Iran does not have a track record in exporting gas in large quantities from multi-billion dollar projects. *Insurance premiums are likely to be quite high given Iran's belligerent nuclear stance, internal problems in Pakistan and fragile relations between India and Pakistan.*

Making matters worse are escalating oil prices. Iran has increased prices of gas since early last year by more than 25 per cent, sensing a hardening of global oil and gas prices.

The Iranians are linking prices of pipeline gas to prices of LNG, which they plan to supply to India under a recent long-term contract. "Iran is better off reinjecting the gas to increase oil production instead of selling at a low price," says a BHP official justifying the price hike by Iran.

Fereidon Fesheraki, an international energy consultant, in a report by Hawaii-based consultancy Facts Inc entitled Rising LNG and Oil Prices in a Seller's Market: Are We Ready for the New Game? says that gas prices are headed higher, with competition for supply from the US forcing Asians to pay crude oil parity or above for LNG, rather than the slight discount to the Japanese Crude Cocktail provided under traditional long-term LNG contracts in Asia.

*The result could be delivered prices of $7 to $10 per million Btu (British Thermal Unit) before the end of this decade.* Currently, with crude oil futures in New York circling the $55 per barrel mark, traders are predicting that Nymex gas futures -- soon turning into some sort of global gas pricing benchmark -- will soon test $7 per million Btu or more.

Rising gas prices does no good when you are negotiating with Iran for supply of 100 million cubic metres of gas a day -- existing Indian gas demand -- via pipeline.

So far India is paying around 20 per cent more for Iranian LNG than what it pays for LNG imports from Qatar under an existing 5-million tons a year LNG import contract.

The Indian side made substantial concessions on pricing to Iran, confirming a slide toward sell-side power in Asian LNG. The LNG contract reportedly provides for a fixed f.o.b. price of $2.97 per million Btu for three years, well above the fixed $2.5 per million Btu that Petronet is paying to Qatar's Rasgas for five years.

After that, IOC and Gail are to pay $1.20 per million Btu, plus 6.25 per cent of the per-barrel price of North Sea Brent crude, subject to a ceiling of $31 per barrel and a floor of $10 per barrel for Brent.

This is the first known case of relatively high-priced Brent, rather than the average Japanese crude import price known as the Japanese Crude Cocktail being used in Asian LNG pricing.

The $2.97 per million Btu initial price reflects Brent at around $28 per barrel, only slightly less than the $3.14 per million Btu that India would pay if indexation were applied with Brent at the $31 per barrel cap.

The variable, oil-linked portion of the price at the initial level is about 40 per cent, more than 30 per cent or so in the Northwest Shelf sale of Australian LNG to China.

The $10-$31 per barrel oil-price range over which indexation applies is also much wider than the roughly $14-$25 per barrel in the first Indian and Chinese contracts.

End users in India are worried because Iranian gas -- either in the form of LNG or pipeline gas -- will be priced much higher than Petronet LNG's $4.5 per million Btu delivered price to industrial consumers.

"The market will not pay more. Power production in India is viable only at $3 per million Btu gas prices," says Vishvjeet Kanwarpal, chief executive of Asia Consulting Group.

*National Thermal Power Corporation officials insist that coal starts replacing gas as fuel in power plants once gas prices cross $3.50 per million Btu. Power and fertiliser companies consume more than 80 per cent of India's gas demand and one cannot wish away their complaints. *

http://in.rediff.com/money/2005/mar/21guest2.htm


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## Neo

India's own reserves are higher than those of Myanmar as so is the production.
Iran holds world second largest reserves, measured 26.62 trillion and Turkmenistan with latest discovery is holding almost 4 trillion Cu m.

So Myanmar is merely a temorary solution.

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## sigatoka

sword9 said:


> Sig,
> You may want to view this in another way, India may have rejected the Iran-Pak gas pipline because of the geo-political interest that puts the future of the IPI project in jeapordy. While the Myanmar-India pipeline is a relatively peaceful region.
> 
> Secondly, the economics of the IPI gas pipeline may not work for cheap gas for India. Read the article in the link below. Those conservant with economics and its nuances maybe able to through some light on the fears pointed out in the article below.


 
That 1000km figure is a load of crap, at the very minimum it is 1,500 and most experts consider out to 2,000 km viable. Regardless, there was more at stake than just a stupid pipeline. There was a great opportunity for an intergrated energy market in South East Asia which was missed. This over time would have led to lower energy prices across the sub-continent and unlike nuclear energy is a proven green fuel.


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## afinebalance

Yeah even if India has some corruption, I don't really understand the approach of this topic.. why are we comparing Pakistan and India? Why not instead look at this topic and talk about how Pakistan can avoid it or be better instead of talking as if it's way ahead of India in all respects.


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## SmashJ

India&#039;s Burning Example for Pakistan | Global Envision

India's Burning Example for Pakistan

Topics: Globalization, Economic Development
Countries: India, Pakistan
Previously filed under: Asia, Opinions and Editorials

With Pakistan on the edge after President Musharraf's recent declaration of martial law, what forces may conspire to stabilize and move the country ahead. 
Without a change to its current economic environment, Pakistan will not be able to succeed in the globalizing world. Photo Credit: pingnews.com 
Pakistan, to be certain, is a country on the brink. To some, President Musharraf's recent declaration of martial law is a desperate move of the country's military and land-owning elite to stave off a religiously inspired revolution. 

Caught in between is Pakistan's middle class  there, as elsewhere, the foundation for building an equitable, post-feudalist, post-corruption society. 

All Aboard 

Under these treacherous circumstances, is there anything that can focus the minds of a sufficiently large number of Pakistanis to transition the current latent chaos to a constructive outcome? 

The only factor that could get the job done, in a word, is India. Simply put, Pakistan is seeing the globalization train pulling out of the station  with India aboard and settling in for the ride. 

With the single-handed exception of the truly antiquity-minded radical wing of the country's religious leaders, all other layers of Pakistan's leadership do realize that the country is running the danger of being left behind in the race of development. 

Up and Up 
 
Its population is exploding in size, with forecasts that it will increase from the current level of 164 million to 290 million by 2050. At that point, Pakistan would become the world's fifth-most-populous country. 

But under current conditions, there is little chance Pakistan could create anywhere near enough jobs for all of its new citizens. 

Busting at the Seams 

In the Arab and Muslim world the youth bulge - and especially the ever-larger groups of unemployed males - is the real problem. 
It is widely acknowledged in the Arab and Muslim world that the youth bulge  and especially the ever-larger groups of unemployed males  is the real problem for those societies. That realization is increasingly shared even by those countries' religious leaders. 

Absent a determined focus on economic growth, this is a time bomb that nobody will be able to handle. 

Of course, Pakistan's intelligence services have long played an extremely cynical, self-absorbed game that may  in effect, or by design  end up negating the fruits of what the civilian economic leadership team under Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz  the erstwhile Finance Minister and ex-top Citibanker  has accomplished. 

Wasting Good Growth 

That would be a terrible shame. After all, even though the fruits of economic growth are still not distributed fairly enough throughout society, Pakistan's major cities do benefit from the prevailing growth dynamics. 

These help to concentrate the mind on moving ahead  rather than falling to the temptation of opting for the Stone Age, proverbially speaking  a temptation often borne out of sheer material despair. 

Slowly but Surely 

It is in the face of those grim realities that Pakistan's political leaders  and all the powers behind them  must operate and plan for the future. None of these issues will be resolved easily  and success is not at all guaranteed. 

A major inducement, which the entire world can only hope for, is that Pakistani leaders will undergo a process of transformation in historic terms  along the lines shown by India. 

Rapprochement Any society that over-emphasizes military spending at the expense of the economy is ultimately doomed. 


Over time, better economic performance is also the best inducement to improve relations between both nations. 

Such a rapprochement, if it materializes, will resemble the one Germany and France went through in Europe after 1950. Given the bloody and bitter wars those two nations fought, it is downright amazing to look at where Germany and France are today  happily united in many ways. As with India and Pakistan now, nobody thought that was possible. 

Gorbi Knows Best 

The other lesson being learned, especially in Pakistan these days, is the one Mikhail Gorbachev taught the Soviet Union. Any society that over-emphasizes military spending at the expense of the economy is ultimately doomed. 

Pakistan's leaders must recognize that, compared to India, they face much bigger difficulties in strengthening their economy. Pakistan has to contend with comparative disadvantages that go well beyond the absence of sufficiently large pools of software engineers. 

Tying the Knot 

Pakistan's best economic hope is one that, admittedly, may seem far-fetched today  namely, to hitch its own economic development on the dynamism of India's economy. In the end, what we are seeing is something profound. It has almost become a commonplace assertion that globalization does not advance  but rather hinders  the advancement of a constructive and equitable global agenda. 

Getting the Job Done 

Pakistan's best economic hope is to hitch its own economic development on the dynamism of India's economy. 
And after 9/11  and with constant fears of terrorism  wise commentators, such as William Greider, have argued that globalization has returned "with a strangely diminished glow." 

And yet, looking ahead  not back  the inverse is true as well. Only a greater sense of realism-cum-cooperation, as complex as it is, will advance individual nations' prospects and well-being. 

Hyping and distrust and disregard for the power of economics and the vitality of growth will surely not get the job done of making the global community more sustainable, inclusive and broader-based. 

Globalization to the Rescue 

In short, the positive, motivating powers of globalization  that is, the effort to stay, or become, competitive in an integrating world  is a crucial driver in shaping our human future. 

As is typical for the transformation tasks related to globalization, that is a very risky  but unavoidable  mission. And clearly, few country pairings are as hairy and potentially troubled in this regard than how India and Pakistan influence each other. In the end, globalization is all about moving key countries toward a resolution of all their outdated conflicts.

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## SmashJ

Just adding to my previous post


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## PeaceForAll

Sir, I think the title of the post and the first post have little relationship. Imho, we cannot compare Pak to India in terms of economy. Atleast not right now. the one thing Pak can be real proud of, however, is that inspite of such stunted econominc growth, it has managed to equate India in terms of military and airforce powers.

If the same amount of passion exists, there is no problem for Pakistan to equal and later on outdo India in economy.

Only big problem is, Pak corruption much much higher than India. Pak president simply does not inspire much confidence!


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## fuhrer2008

*Pakistan Faces Bankruptcy, Wants $100bn Handout*

The UK's Daily Telegraph reports that Pakistan may be the first nation to go bankrupt as a result of the continuing global financial meltdown.

Officially, the central bank holds $8.14 billion (£4.65 billion) of foreign currency, but if forward liabilities are included, the real reserves may be only $3 billion - enough to buy about 30 days of imports like oil and food. 

Nine months ago, Pakistan had $16 bn in the coffers.

The government is engulfed by crises left behind by Pervez Musharraf, the military ruler who resigned the presidency in August. High oil prices have combined with endemic corruption and mismanagement to inflict huge damage on the economy.

Given the country's standing as a frontline state in the US-led "war on terrorism", the economic crisis has profound consequences. Pakistan already faces worsening security as the army clashes with militants in the lawless Tribal Areas on the north-west frontier with Afghanistan.

... Mr Zardari told the Wall Street Journal that Pakistan needed a bail out worth $100 billion from the international community.

"If I can't pay my own oil bill, how am I going to increase my police?" he asked. "The oil companies are asking me to pay $135 [per barrel] of oil and at the same time they want me to keep the world peaceful and Pakistan peaceful." 

The ratings agency Standard and Poor's has given Pakistan's sovereign debt a grade of CCC +, which stands only a few notches above the default level.

The economic crisis might yet end Pakistan's newly elected government, which is facing a crisis of confidence already as it battles 25% inflation, a drowning currency and a President with a reputation as "Mr 10%" for past corruption. It's also unclear that even a $100 billion bailout would be enough to stave off Pakistan's money woes, since the security situation is itself feeding the economic crisis there - investors don't want to know about a nation so obviously on the verge of failure. 

and on contrast 
*Indian economy to perform well: IMF*
Print Email Feedback DiscussRate Article 
Rating: Agencies
Posted: Oct 11, 2008 at 1518 hrs IST
Washington, October 11: Dismissing fears of global financial contagion impacting India, the International Monetary Fund has said that the country's economy will continue to perform well. 
"Overall, we see the Indian economy continuing to perform well," said Oliver Blanchard, Economic Counselor and Director of International Monetary Fund (IMF) Research Department here recently. 

Pointing out that there will be some impact of the tighter global liquidity conditions on India, he said, "We don't see major drag from this impact on the country." 

According to the projections made by the World Economic Outlook (WEO) released recently by the IMF, India is likely to register a Gross Domestic Product (GDP) growth of 7.9 per cent in 2008-09, which may slip to 6.9 per cent in 2009-10



what are we comparing , btw no serious indian would like to see a bankrupt pakistan on its border , and taken over by talibans and all moderate pakistanis pussed to corner ...its horror ..............

Btw i would prefer if pakistanis should stop comparing with india coz there is nothing to compare considering size of economy, million other reason isntead it should compare witha country of its own size and first of all get rid of those corrupt people in its own system and win war against all talibs bombing everything which paksitanis have created over the years


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## fuhrer2008

Pakistan should just think first about its own survival isntead engaging in race with any of its neighbours coz its real emey are now with in , the hardliners have done more harm than any indian or jew has done to its interest .such stupid topics and tahnking ourselves is like blinding ourselves to rampaging corruption and celebrating the decline of own economy and living in fools paradise .


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## fuhrer2008

paksitan gdp is only 160 billion $ where as a state in india maharshtra's 165 billion , it plans to do $ 220 billion by 2010, pakistan's prjected is 192 only 

pakistan should beat it first, and also beat israel at 176 look much closer , so gun them first

search for list of contries by future gdp on google , u would get the whole list

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## Neo

Mt Fuhrer2008,

Thank you for your brilliant 'Indian' perception and explanation of our economy.

Kindly request you to adjust your profile before you make your next post. Jaipur is nowhere near California its in Rajastan, India 
Therefor please change your location flag with the tri color, Rajastan is still in Indian hands, not Pakistan...not yet. 

Btw, welcome aboard and enjoy our stay!

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## cooldude

I wonder where have those people disappeared who criticized India in the beginning of this post (2006) for building forex reserves and believed that Pakistan`s economy is doing better than India. I don`t want to hurt anyone but I would request the members of this forum to not criticized India for all bad things that happen in subcontinent or sometimes to Pakistan and acknowledge the good things done by India.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

cooldude said:


> I wonder where have those people disappeared who criticized India in the beginning of this post (2006) for building forex reserves and believed that Pakistan`s economy is doing better than India. I don`t want to hurt anyone but I would request the members of this forum to not criticized India for all bad things that happen in subcontinent or sometimes to Pakistan and acknowledge the good things done by India.



Indeed - I would encourage Indians here and on other forums to do the same.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Neo said:


> Mt Fuhrer2008,
> 
> Thank you for your brilliant 'Indian' perception and explanation of our economy.
> 
> Kindly request you to adjust your profile before you make your next post. Jaipur is nowhere near California its in Rajastan, India
> Therefor please change your location flag with the tri color, Rajastan is still in Indian hands, not Pakistan...not yet.
> 
> Btw, welcome aboard and enjoy our stay!



I didn't even have to run traces and I knew - just showed through the language. 

You get to recognize subtle clues in the structure, language and tone of posts after a while ....


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## The Wisdom Tree

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> I didn't even have to run traces and I knew - just showed through the language.
> 
> You get to recognize subtle clues in the structure, language and tone of posts after a while ....



Not to undermine your instincts, but his posts were kind of anti pakistan anyway.

For the facts he presented though, I'm impressed just Maharashtra outperforms the whole of pakistan!


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## Goodperson

The Wisdom Tree said:


> Not to undermine your instincts, but his posts were kind of anti pakistan anyway.
> 
> For the facts he presented though, I'm impressed just Maharashtra outperforms the whole of pakistan!



He is probably saying truth in terms of GDP 

India (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/in.html)
-----
GDP (purchasing power parity): $2.966 trillion (2007 est.)
GDP (official exchange rate): $1.099 trillion (2007 est.)

Pakistan (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/pk.html)
---------
GDP (purchasing power parity): $411.9 billion (2007 est.)
GDP (official exchange rate): $143.8 billion (2007 est.)
-------------------------------
Maharashtra GDP (purchasing power parity) = 10 &#37; of 2.9666 trillion = 296 billion * 1.4 = $414.4 billion
Maharashtra GDP official exchange rate = 15% of India's GDP = $154.4 billion 
------------------------------
( Calculations - 
Maharashtra's Per capita income 2007= Rs 41,331 i.e 1.4 % higher than rest of India = $ 1033
(Maharashtra poised for 9 percent growth in 2007-08)
Maharashtra's population 2007 = 10.5 % of India = 10.5 % 105 billion = 10 Billion


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## Neo

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> I didn't even have to run traces and I knew - just showed through the language.
> 
> You get to recognize subtle clues in the structure, language and tone of posts after a while ....



Actually it takes only a few seconds to run an IP check I usually do that for every new entry.

Just don't understand why some Indians would hide behind the Pak Flag to be heard...aren't we giving them equal rights, reasteps and treatment here? 

Ar they somehow ashamed of the Tri-color and envy our beautifull green & white?


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## Neo

Goodperson said:


> He is probably saying truth in terms of GDP
> 
> India (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/in.html)
> -----
> GDP (purchasing power parity): $2.966 trillion (2007 est.)
> GDP (official exchange rate): $1.099 trillion (2007 est.)
> 
> Pakistan (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/pk.html)
> ---------
> GDP (purchasing power parity): $411.9 billion (2007 est.)
> GDP (official exchange rate): $143.8 billion (2007 est.)
> -------------------------------
> Maharashtra GDP (purchasing power parity) = 10 % of 2.9666 trillion = 296 billion * 1.4 = $414.4 billion
> Maharashtra GDP official exchange rate = 15% of India's GDP = $154.4 billion
> ------------------------------
> ( Calculations -
> Maharashtra's Per capita income 2007= Rs 41,331 i.e 1.4 % higher than rest of India = $ 1033
> (Maharashtra poised for 9 percent growth in 2007-08)
> Maharashtra's population 2007 = 10.5 % of India = 10.5 % 105 billion = 10 Billion



Please don't feed the trolls.


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## Goodperson

Neo said:


> Please don't feed the trolls.



Common Neo, I don't support trolls. Infact i did not remember his name while posting. I had inclination that he may not be lying .I did some research and posted facts which I thought was the right way sending message to the poster about about importance of data.


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## fuhrer2008

i am sry i just started writing the facts without caring of flag etc it was my first post undermine pakistan or anything neither i want to hide behind pakistani flag btw i was just represting the facts, how people can be blind in emotions not able to see the true problems ...i think real problem facing pakistan is terrorism and not india ,neways just think how can you think india as anti islamic when its only country where muslim have haj subsidy, their population has increased from 10 &#37; to 15% , instead see how hindus in pakistan decreased or killed from 24% to 1 % after independence , Further kashmir issue also its not we would like to keep small part of kashmir valley forcefully (kashmir in india's possiion is 1/3 of valley and its smallest region in J &K, jamu and ladakh is big parts ) , but making kashmir valley free just becoz its majority muslim and its ethinic cleaning from hindus has left very less hindus ,But it would be attack on indian sucular structure and would challenge the right of 15% muslims in india to live here , It would mean if any part islam thrives it will part from india , it means two religions cant live together and secularism is false ,also democracy is , Btw jinnah also declared paksitan a state where all religion would have equal rights but what minorities got there ? and still your media potrays how shabbily we treat muslims in india , you got to appreciate that we had even president , prime ministers and cm of majority hindu majority states as muslims , how many muslim country had non muslim president before hating us ? just think 

Btw u can tell me how to change flag


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## fuhrer2008

Btw i am an indian from jaipur now in cali


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## fuhrer2008

just back for few days at home , trying to surf in between and found this nice forum


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## Neo

fuhrer2008 said:


> i am sry i just started writing the facts without caring of flag etc it was my first post undermine pakistan or anything neither i want to hide behind pakistani flag btw i was just represting the facts,


But why use a Pakistani flag in your profile? 



> how people can be blind in emotions not able to see the true problems ...i think real problem facing pakistan is terrorism and not india


Terrorism is our main threat, India second.



> ,neways just think how can you think india as anti islamic when its only country where muslim have haj subsidy, their population has increased from 10 &#37; to 15% ,


Gujrat massacre rings a bell?



> instead see how hindus in pakistan decreased or killed from 24% to 1 % after independence ,


They migrated volunterely. To me it seems that hindus somehow don't want to live in a muslim dominated society.



> Further kashmir issue also its not we would like to keep small part of kashmir valley forcefully (kashmir in india's possiion is 1/3 of valley and its smallest region in J &K, jamu and ladakh is big parts ) , but making kashmir valley free just becoz its majority muslim and its ethinic cleaning from hindus has left very less hindus


But you are keeping it forcefully! Kashmiri's never got the chance to speak for themselves, they were sold out to India by power hungry and selfish ruler Hari Singh.



> ,But it would be attack on indian sucular structure and would challenge the right of 15% muslims in india to live here , It would mean if any part islam thrives it will part from india , it means two religions cant live together and secularism is false ,also democracy is , Btw jinnah also declared paksitan a state where all religion would have equal rights but what minorities got there ? and still your media potrays how shabbily we treat muslims in india , you got to appreciate that we had even president , prime ministers and cm of majority hindu majority states as muslims , how many muslim country had non muslim president before hating us ? just think


Indian secular structure is restricted to official levels and kept alive artificially, hindus dominate the social structure and there's religious and ethnic discrimination all over the country.



> Btw u can tell me how to change flag


Go to your Control Panel and change location and flag. I've changed it for you. When you're back in California, feel free to change the location flag again.

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## fuhrer2008

BTW our tricolour is more precious than our skin, although we dont hate your flag....or any other in the world , grow up beyond those boundries atleast in thinking .


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## fuhrer2008

you got to appreciate that we had even president , prime ministers and cm of majority hindu majority states as muslims , how many muslim country had non muslim president before hating us ? just think ...any answers


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## fuhrer2008

Migrated voluntarily ....u mean u dont stories of how hindus and sikh were killed, ask all those population of people who were rendered homeless and for saving their life they took shelter in india ( i dont say there no killing on indian side and there are no muhajir in pakistan) , btw please dont sell me official pakistani political opinion i am not selling u view of indian govt , i dont say there is no discrimination in india , but there is also positive discrimination and lot of aid to muslims and other minorities as well,please visit india and also listen opinion of all people before making final mind on any issue


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## fuhrer2008

Gujrat massacre rings a bell?

There was a godhra inceident before gujrat , btw inspite of that no india think such was good , and have condemned it,


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## fuhrer2008

Btw i am amazed that inspite of so many fatwas against various people , even against Mr zardari , why cant any courageous maulvi issue fatwa against terrorism of all kind and religions , i think when it will happen even other religion people will join in such jehad and world can be a better place to live 

Btw 
Mr neo , thanks for changing the flag ...i found most of your posts relatively reasonable but you got to agree with me that view of people of both side is a bit distorted toward each other and away from reality,i think may be effect of media of both countries and years of suspicion and hate , i think history has ample egs of what happen form hate ...as it happened in wwII which was not war in my opinion but something else becoz all nations in europe were not fighting for land but complete destruction of each other's culture and even signs


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## p2prada

Neo said:


> But why use a Pakistani flag in your profile?
> 
> 
> Teroorism is our main thread, India second.
> 
> 
> Gujrat massacre rings a bell?
> 
> 
> They migrated volunterely. To me it seems that hindus somehow don't want to live in a muslim dominated society.
> 
> 
> But you are keeping it forcefully! Kashmiri's never got the chance to speak for themselves, they were sold out to India by power hungry and selfish ruler Hari Singh.
> 
> 
> Indian secular structure is restricted to official levels and kept alive artificially, hindus dominate the social structure and there's religious and ethnic discrimination all over the country.



*But you are keeping it forcefully! Kashmiri's never got the chance to speak for themselves, they were sold out to India by power hungry and selfish ruler Hari Singh.*

I dont understand where u got this info from. There were 500 odd princely states in india. The brits gave the *reigning monarchs* the freedom to join either india, pak or remain independent. The so called "public opinion" did not exist in 1947. The only public opinion that existed was a knife against the neck.

India forced most of the princely states to join it, either militarily coerced or diplomatic "threats." Some, like Nepal were allowed to become independent, because Nepal had signed a standstill agreement with the British.

Kashmir had also signed a standstill agreement with the British. But neither india nor pak wanted Kashmir to be free. At the same time, Hari singh thought that Kashmir would be better off if it were independent. After the invasion of the irregular forces from pak, circumstances forced Hari singh to cede kashmir to india formally.

Actually, india has more credibility for taking over kashmir than that of taking over other provinces like hyderabad and goa. Atleast Hari Singh signed the succession rights in a diplomatic fashion. Hyderabad and Goa were invaded and the Nizam and the Portugese respectively were kicked out unceremoniously.

Had Pak not invaded, Kashmir would have been a free nation by now.

*
Indian secular structure is restricted to official levels and kept alive artificially, hindus dominate the social structure and there's religious and ethnic discrimination all over the country.* 

Come to India and point it out to me please. I was trying out for the last seat in an engineering coll. I was denied the seat because some Muslim guy, who had lower marks than i had, got it just cause he was muslim. The college authorities told me that they had no choice since the muslim quota was not filled. Is that even fair.

Education and govt jobs give first priority to muslims, christians and other minorities. Upper class hindus are not allowed any quota cause we are deemed "self sufficient."

One of my Muslim friends wrote "GENERAL QUOTA"(same as mine) instead of MUSLIM QUOTA on the application only to be fair. Actually he is the only muslim guy i have ever seen with a bible in his house.

The problem is that pakistani and chinese newspapers print only the negative points of India. U need to come to india and actually live with educated moderate muslims in india for u to get the true picture.


In India many muslims undergo MADRASA education. Meaning they are well versed in Quran but not in mathematics, science and arts; subjects which are nothing short of heresy. So, when they grow older they can barely compete with children of other religions and are therefore sidelined from the mainstream economy. In the end they only carry jealousy and hatred and become anti-social. 

I myself have seen so many "friends" as kids and malik-naukar when grown up. People I played cricket with as kids ended up washing my car 10 years. later. I forgot to mention, some of them ended up in prison and are also drug addicts.

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## Neo

fuhrer2008 said:


> BTW our tricolour is more precious than our skin, although we dont hate your flag....or any other in the world , grow up beyond those boundries atleast in thinking .



Grow up??  I'm not the one hiding behind a foreign flag, you are!
You still haven't answered my question. Why did you select a Pakistani flag in your profile??


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## Neo

Mr Fuhrer and P2prada,

Lets not further derail the thread. The topic is Pak economy vs Indian economy.

There's a dedicated threads about secular India, please post your comments there.

Thanks!


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## fuhrer2008

India PM ready to help IMF crisis loans - paper
Mon Oct 20, 2008 9:50pm EDT Email | Print | Share| Reprints | Single Page | Recommend (0) [-] Text [+] 
Market News 
Dollar falls to seven-month low against the yen 
Stocks extend losses on recession fear 
Global stocks, commodities fall on slowing growth 
More Business & Investing News... (For more stories on the financial crisis click [ID:nCRISIS])

TOKYO, Oct 21 (Reuters) - Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh said his country was ready to cooperate in an International Monetary Fund loan scheme to rescue countries struck down by the global credit crisis, Japan's Nikkei newspaper reported on Tuesday.

At the Group of Seven finance leaders' meeting in Washington this month, Japan said it was ready to offer part of its $1 trillion foreign reserves to the IMF if the multi-national lender needed it to support countries facing economic crises.

Singh told a group interview with Japanese media on Monday that India, with foreign exchange reserves of roughly $300 billion, would happily accept any request for cooperation in expanding the IMF's emergency lending scheme, the Nikkei said.

Singh is due to arrive in Japan on Tuesday to meet Japanese Prime Minister Taro Aso before heading to China for a summit of Asian and European nations later this week. (Reporting by Leika Kihara; Editing by Rodney Joyce)


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## fuhrer2008

Pakistan Needs a Marshal Plan

22 October 2008 Print E-mail 
Pakistan is in the grip of a severe economic crisis. So much so the country faces the risk of defaulting on its foreign debt. Its foreign exchange reserves have slumped to a mere $4 billion. Soaring two-digit inflation, power crisis and a bearish brokerage further compound the situation.

Pakistan is desperately looking for an urgent relief of $2 to 3 billion. After knocking at the doors of United States, European Union, Arab friends and even China, Islamabad is now contemplating a rescue package by the International Monetary Fund (IMF) as the last resort. Even though President Asif Ali Zardari&#8217;s maiden visit to Beijing has won him many investment promises as well as an accord to set up two nuclear power plants, the desired injection of cash to the tune of at least $1.5 billion hasn&#8217;t materialised.

An IMF-backed plan would require the government to cut spending, slash subsidies and raise taxes, which would be quite taxing for a nation already reeling from severe economic hardship. It will also be difficult for the country&#8217;s democratic leadership to sell at home. Prime Minister&#8217;s Advisor on Finance Shaukat Tareen has raised the ante by saying that if Pakistan didn&#8217;t get the urgently needed help from its friends within 30 days, it will have to turn to the IMF. The country has a history of bitter experiences with global lenders like IMF and World Bank. Such loans in the past had stalled its growth and jeopardised many growing industries. It will also have to scrap government subsidies and cut down on government spending leading to much domestic disgruntlement.

But Pakistan is on the brink and needs to make a swift decision. Its deficit has widened by 42 per cent to a staggering $3.95b. If even the unpopular IMF bailout doesn&#8217;t come its way, the country - facing an imminent bankruptcy - will be forced to clamp down on imports and capital flows. It might result in a run on the banks and inflation soaring further sky-high. 

Yet Pakistan hasn&#8217;t give up on its hopes. The government is mulling a three-point plan of action. Under its first preference, it is looking for soft loans from the World Bank ($1.5b), ADB ($1.6b), Islamic Development bank $1 billion and DFID ($500m), as well as the hope of raising around $7 billion in remittances from expatriates.

If that hit snags, Islamabad expects its friends to come to its rescue. It hopes Saudi Arabia and China will once again bail it out and is banking on the &#8216;Friends of Pakistan&#8217; meeting in Abu Dhabi next month. 

And, of course, as a last resort it can always sign on the dotted line with the IMF. Pakistan is neither a lost case nor should it fail. The nation needs a Marshal Plan and the world must be aware of the cost of allowing it to fail


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## fuhrer2008

Both post are self descriptive , i dont need to elaborate who is offering aid to IMF and who is asking urgent aid from IMF, do you think there is anything to compare on economic front

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## fuhrer2008

I think we are not discussing on this topic anymore


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## fuhrer2008

I think we are not discussing on this topic anymore


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## fuhrer2008

Pakistan Must Stabilize Reserves to Avoid Rating Cut, S&P Says 

By Khalid Qayum

Oct. 23 (Bloomberg) -- Pakistan, seeking assistance from the International Monetary Fund, faces a credit-rating cut if it doesn't ``stabilize'' its foreign reserves and balance of payments, Standard & Poor's said. 

The nation's foreign reserves fell $570 million in the week ended Oct. 10 and have shrunk more than 74 percent in the past year to $4.3 billion. Pakistan's balance of payments deficit widened to a record $3.95 billion in the third quarter from $2.27 billion a year earlier. 

``The decline in reserves is extraordinary,'' said Agost Benard, associate director at S&P in Singapore. ``If you have this kind of erosion then it is only a question of time before the rating will have to move down again.'' 

Central bank Governor Shamshad Akhtar is flying to Dubai today to hold talks with the IMF on a bailout to prevent Pakistan from defaulting on its debt, which is perceived by investors as the riskiest in the world after Argentina. IMF Managing Director Dominique Strauss-Kahn yesterday said the package was aimed at ``strengthening economic stability.'' 

``IMF loans help to stabilize things more than the actual funds that are transferred to the economy,'' Benard said in an interview in Singapore yesterday. ``It's the policy credibility that comes with it in the eyes of international investors.'' 

Pakistan may need as much as $10 billion from overseas donors over the next two years to avoid default, IMF Regional Director Mohsin Khan said in an Oct. 20 interview. The amount of money requested ``has yet to be determined,'' Strauss- Kahn said in yesterday's statement. 

Emergency Program 

The loan request from Pakistan will be processed under an emergency program announced earlier this month that gives the Washington-based fund's 185 members access to financing within 10 days rather than the usual several weeks. 

Hungary, Iceland, the Ukraine and Belarus are also seeking assistance from the IMF to help weather the global financial crisis. Belarus has applied for a $2 billion loan, Interfax reported Oct. 22, and the Ukraine said this week it may sign a loan worth as much as $15 billion. 

Pakistan is also expected to seek financial support from the `Friends of Pakistan' group, which is due to meet next month in the United Arab Emirates. The group, which was established last month to help Pakistan stabilize its economy, includes the U.S., U.K., China and Saudi Arabia. 

Credit Rating 

S&P, doubting Pakistan's ability to repay debt, cut the long-term foreign-currency rating on Oct. 6 to seven levels below investment grade, and said it may lower it again. Moody's Investors Service lowered its credit outlook to negative on Sept. 23, citing a risk of ``missed repayments.'' 

S&P raised Pakistan's credit rating three times between 1999 and 2004, when the South Asian country was last under an IMF program. It has lowered the rating twice this year. The IMF last rescued Pakistan from default in 1999 with a loan of about $600 million loan. 

Pakistan's next interest payment on its dollar-denominated bonds is due in December and the government is scheduled to repay $500 million in February on a 6.75 percent note. 

The country's first civilian government since 1999 is facing economic turmoil after the rupee plunged to an all-time low, the current-account deficit widened to a record, and inflation jumped to a 30-year high. The economic crisis mounted after the Pakistan Peoples Party-led government was paralyzed for almost six months because of political wrangling. 

`Deteriorated Significantly' 

Pakistan's economy has ``deteriorated significantly'' and growth may slow to a six-year low, the IMF said in an Oct. 20 report. Growth is expected to weaken to 3.5 percent in the year to June 30 from 5.8 percent last year, the IMF said. 

Pakistan needs political stability and policy predictability to attract foreign investment, said Benard, who has visited the country four times since 2003. The security situation is ``getting worse,'' he said. 

Military operations in Pakistan's tribal region bordering Afghanistan have triggered retaliatory attacks by militants. More than 50 people were killed in a suicide bomb attack at Islamabad's Marriott hotel on Sept. 20. The U.S. has urged Pakistan to do more to fight al-Qaeda and Taliban militants in its tribal areas, which the Bush administration says the militants are using to regroup and attack the coalition forces in Afghanistan


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## fuhrer2008

Moody's downgrades Pakistan rating
Source: Our monitoring desk May 22, 2008, the nation
PAKISTAN'S credit rating was cut for the first time in nine years by Moody's Investors Service, which cited 'growing economic imbalances and renewed political difficulties', reports Bloomberg.

The South Asian nation's foreign-currency sovereign rating was lowered to B2 from B1, one level below Turkmenistan and Jamaica. The ranking on locally-issued debt was also reduced to B2, Moody's said in an e-mailed statement on Wednesday.

Pakistan's seven-week-old government is fractured after coalition partner Nawaz Sharif and nine ministers quit in a dispute over the reinstatement of judges sacked by President Pervez Musharraf. Standard & Poor's cut Pakistan's rating on May 15, and the downgrade by Moody's puts the country's local-government bonds on par with Honduras and Cambodia.

"The ratings could impact Pakistan's effort to raise debt overseas or sell shares in companies," said Zaheeruddin Khalid, head of research at Al-Meezan Investment Management Ltd in Karachi, which oversees $270 million in stocks and bonds. The cut was 'expected after ratings were lowered by S&P on sliding economic indicators'.

Credit-default swaps on Pakistan's government debt increased 10 basis points to 530 at 3:30 pm in Hong Kong, according to Morgan Stanley's prices. That means it costs $530,000 a year to protect $10 million of Pakistan's debt from default for five years.

Pakistan's foreign currency rating was cut one level to B by S&P, citing government spending that's growing faster than revenue collection and political instability. The outlook is negative, S&P said.

"The outlook on the government's bond ratings and bank deposit ceilings was changed to stable from negative," Moody's said. "The stable outlook reflects the prospect of external financial support from multilateral development banks and bilateral creditors that should bolster external liquidity and offer some policy manoeuvring room."

Overseas investment in Pakistan, which reached a record $5.1 billion in the year to June 2007, has since fallen 17 per cent, according to central bank data. Foreign direct investment declined to $3.48 billion in the 10 months ended April 30 from $4.18 billion a year ago.

The rating cut may further deter overseas investors who have already retreated from the South Asian nation, buying a net $119 million of Pakistani stocks in the 10 months ended April 30, compared with purchases of $1.76 billion a year ago.

"Pakistan's fiscal and current account deficits could surpass 7 per cent of gross domestic product and are heightening inflationary pressures," Moody's said. "Substantial fiscal loosening and poor tax collection had led to a sharp erosion in the fiscal position."


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## fuhrer2008

Pakistan must find some economic aid from IMF speciallly when all of its freinds have declined to help or atleast they are delaying the help in such crucial scenario, even though regulation at IMF are much stiff, Btw I dont know why pakistan is so much against indian compaies to invest in pakistan when they can invite those cheapster and poor quality manufacturers like chinese who can best offer only sweatshops and are not known to be any good employers , why cant their own genetic brothers ( barring religion of 85&#37; indian, i dont know what is diffrent beween an india or pakistani)


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## TOPGUN

First of all there cant be no compare here with India !!!!!!


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## fuhrer2008

First of all there cant be no compare here with India !!!!!!,

i am sry sir can understand ...........................


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## su-47

but that's what the thread is about!

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## fuhrer2008

I mean i can u elaborate what u said , coz i have just put a point of view that trade between india and pakistan could be better for both economies


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## fuhrer2008

Btw i thought i am posting on Pak economy vs indian economy forum ?,am i some where else


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## Patriot

fuhrer2008 said:


> Btw i thought i am posting on Pak economy vs indian economy forum ?,am i some where else


Do you really live in California?


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## fuhrer2008

Is that of any relevance to the topic of discussion....Mr saad..btw nice musharaf pic ...


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## fuhrer2008

US media predicts Pak economy collapse despite it receiving enough pledges
October 18th, 2008 - 4:13 pm ICT by ANI - 

Washington , Oct 18 (ANI): Despite Pakistan receiving enough pledges from donors to avoid a possible economic default, the US media continues to predict an impending economic collapse in the recession-hit country.

Only a day ago, a excerpts of a draft report being prepared by the US intelligence agencies said that Pakistan economy was on the edge, having no money, no energy, no government.

About half a dozen reports published in the US and Western media on Friday blamed political turmoil, rising inflation, increase in oil and fuel prices and power shortages for derailing the Pakistani economy.

The Los Angeles Times published a detailed report on the financial crisis facing Pakistan . It said that the Pakistani economy has been in free fall for months. From the poorest of the poor to the wealthy elite, Pakistanis are frightened. Some say the wretched state of the economy scares them more than the threat of terrorist attacks. The government is desperate for an infusion of foreign cash; it is seeking 10 billion dollars in emergency funds from overseas to avoid default. But in light of everyone else&#8217;&#8217;s troubles, a bailout may not be forthcoming &#8212; or may not be on the scale that Pakistani officials had hoped, the Dawn quoted the LA Times report as saying.

Another report, published in London Telegraph, noted that Pakistan has managed to secure funding from other countries and international organizations to cover the 10 billion dollars needed to prevent the country from defaulting.

Several newspapers published a dispatch from Karachi , reporting that the Pakistani rupee weakened 2.78 percent to a record low of 84.40 rupees to the dollar on Friday after a 570 million dollars fall in foreign currency reserves reinforced concern over a looming balance of payments crisis.

The Pakistani rupee has lost nearly 25 per cent of its value in the last months.

Yet another report noted that Pakistan barely had enough foreign exchange reserves for about a month&#8217;&#8217;s import of essential commodities such as food and oil. (A


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## Brown

In 1990 pakistan economy is 1/5 of india now it is 1/9 of india what does it imply?

Who is doing better?


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## Jihad

fuhrer2008 said:


> US media predicts Pak economy collapse despite it receiving enough pledges
> October 18th, 2008 - 4:13 pm ICT by ANI -
> 
> Washington , Oct 18 (ANI): Despite Pakistan receiving enough pledges from donors to avoid a possible economic default, the US media continues to predict an impending economic collapse in the recession-hit country.
> 
> Only a day ago, a excerpts of a draft report being prepared by the US intelligence agencies said that Pakistan economy was on the edge, having no money, no energy, no government.
> 
> About half a dozen reports published in the US and Western media on Friday blamed political turmoil, rising inflation, increase in oil and fuel prices and power shortages for derailing the Pakistani economy.
> 
> The Los Angeles Times published a detailed report on the financial crisis facing Pakistan . It said that the Pakistani economy has been in free fall for months. From the poorest of the poor to the wealthy elite, Pakistanis are frightened. Some say the wretched state of the economy scares them more than the threat of terrorist attacks. The government is desperate for an infusion of foreign cash; it is seeking 10 billion dollars in emergency funds from overseas to avoid default. But in light of everyone else&#8217;&#8217;s troubles, a bailout may not be forthcoming &#8212; or may not be on the scale that Pakistani officials had hoped, the Dawn quoted the LA Times report as saying.
> 
> Another report, published in London Telegraph, noted that Pakistan has managed to secure funding from other countries and international organizations to cover the 10 billion dollars needed to prevent the country from defaulting.
> 
> Several newspapers published a dispatch from Karachi , reporting that the Pakistani rupee weakened 2.78 percent to a record low of 84.40 rupees to the dollar on Friday after a 570 million dollars fall in foreign currency reserves reinforced concern over a looming balance of payments crisis.
> 
> The Pakistani rupee has lost nearly 25 per cent of its value in the last months.
> 
> Yet another report noted that Pakistan barely had enough foreign exchange reserves for about a month&#8217;&#8217;s import of essential commodities such as food and oil. (A



Ah..the U.S. media predicts......
Can you blame me for not continuing to read the rest of the article after reading the line above..?


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## notorious_eagle

Pakistan's economy can never improve unless we solve this energy crisis.


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## Patriot

Brown said:


> In 1990 pakistan economy is 1/5 of india now it is 1/9 of india what does it imply?
> 
> Who is doing better?


India without any doubt.We need better politicians and economists..


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## Brown

saadahmed said:


> India without any doubt.We need better politicians and economists..



Thanks buddy you are right we have better when compare to you but we all need best.
*Pakistan free itself from the pendulum of "general and landlord" *
Pakistan need to these things 
1) do land reforms like india and china. I am suprised to see 10&#37; people own 40% land in pakistan. Pakistanis talk abt Maosits in india will distroy india but they have put pressure on india to do land reforms. 

2) In pakistan political elite are very very rich land owners they gaurd there privilages very strongly so I do not think it will happen.

india spends 2.5% buget on defence but pakistan spends 5% even china spends 2.8% only 

can Pakistan effort it?

Please see video abt pakistan by Tariq Ali. Great information 
YouTube - Conversations With History - Tariq Ali


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## roopesh

Brown said:


> india spends 2.5% buget on defence but pakistan spends 5% even china spends 2.8% only ..can Pakistan effort it?



Its not possible in immeidate future. The reason is military lobby in pakistan is very very strong. Recent pay increase to indian solders and increaed budget of $40 billion going to put tremondous pressure on pakistan side. Pakistan military enjoying all the laxury facilities and its hand on country politics. So there is no way they will allow lower budget.


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## el nino

*Today in 2009 bare facts *


iNDIA V PAKISTAN 
GDP $1.2 TRILLION V $160 BILLION 

fOREX $256 BILLION V $7 BILLION


DEFENSE
BUDGET $27 BILLION V $5.5 BILLION 


THE GAP IS MASSIVE

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## notorious_eagle

el nino said:


> *Today in 2009 bare facts *
> 
> 
> iNDIA V PAKISTAN
> GDP $1.2 TRILLION V $160 BILLION
> 
> fOREX $256 BILLION V $7 BILLION
> 
> 
> DEFENSE
> BUDGET $27 BILLION V $5.5 BILLION
> 
> 
> THE GAP IS MASSIVE



Such a shame, even with this massive gap India cant flex its muscle on Pakistan . Its the same as if Canada gives the middle finger to the US , massive shame for India.

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## RescueRanger

I hate this mine is bigger then your competitons. Eitherway i see a Bright and prosperous Pakistan in the years to come. (Inshallah)

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## Zaheerkhan

notorious_eagle said:


> Such a shame, even with this massive gap India cant flex its muscle on Pakistan . Its the same as if Canada gives the middle finger to the US , massive shame for India.



U r really lucky to have a neighbor like India. If u had a neighbor like USA, or Israel, you would'nt have had the luxury of you home and a computer to discuss things....you probably would have been on the streets throwing stones at enemy tanks!!!

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## Rajkumar

i dont care how pakistanis or world think about india. main things is, we need to improve our selves further and further. the biggest hurdle is population?
we need to learn from our mistakes as well mistakes of others. don't compare it with pak. there is long way ahead of us. prepare for long race and it's going to tough. Let pakistanis point out loopholes and take it as a challenge to fight it.

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## notorious_eagle

Zaheerkhan said:


> U r really lucky to have a neighbor like India. If u had a neighbor like USA, or Israel, you would'nt have had the luxury of you home and a computer to discuss things....you probably would have been on the streets throwing stones at enemy tanks!!!



Haahhahaa man sometimes you guys make me laugh sooo hard. I dont know what made you think that but India is not US nor Israel. Israel and US are highly developed countries with a very strong military, citizens over there enjoy very high standards of living. If invading Pakistan was soo easy India would have done it a long time ago. And Please dont come up with the same old excuse, India is a responsible neighbour  cause its going to make me laugh even harder. It sometimes amazes me how arrogant some Indians are, i think its about time you step into the real world because this is not a Bollywood movie.


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## el nino

i CAN,T BELIEVE that a country with a fraction of the resources of PAKISTAN has got itself involved in a Arms race with a nation the size of india. 

No matter how you paint this picture

Geography size
natural resources
financial resources
military power
poltical power
international weight clout
forex
GDP
MILITARY BUDGET
growth rates

pakistan is simply dwarfed by india.


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## Stumper

From some very intelligent discussion's, this thread has slowly moved towards one up show.

To My Indian Friend's: Indian economy is better than Pak. Happy Now? Hope this helps us solve the endless list of domestic issue's like Quota/Reservation's, Clean water, Good health System, social discrimination , etc etc etc.


To Pakistani's: Was curious. GOI has started implementing e-governance model in various states. As of now it's each states prerogative but the model envisions a centralized backbone and database (both absent as of now).

As and example .. its called e-save in hyderabad:
Welcome To eSevaonline:: Government of Andhra Pradesh

So far a few states (Andhra, pune, karnataka) have implemented it. Other states are building the infra as of now. SO the idea is : Small center spread across all area's (including rural areas .. via VSAT) of the state. This center is the window of your traction with the Govt. Pay bill's, apply for micro finance loan, apply for passport, etc etc (Hugh menu card )

How is it in pakistan?

Regards.


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## roopesh

Zaheerkhan said:


> U r really lucky to have a neighbor like India. If u had a neighbor like USA, or Israel, you would'nt have had the luxury of you home and a computer to discuss things....you probably would have been on the streets throwing stones at enemy tanks!!!



Israel may be stronger; but luckly they have got weak side at the other end. When it comes to USA they now not surrounded with enimy countries. Their relation with mexico and canarad has improved a lot. but see the india and pakistan relations. its cant be repaired in days. The damage is so big. USA can pack up from afghan on one day. but pakistan cant. they have to face the heat for ever. For the same reason India is not joining afghan war.


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## notorious_eagle

el nino said:


> i CAN,T BELIEVE that a country with a fraction of the resources of PAKISTAN has got itself involved in a Arms race with a nation the size of india.
> 
> No matter how you paint this picture
> 
> Geography size
> natural resources
> financial resources
> military power
> poltical power
> international weight clout
> forex
> GDP
> MILITARY BUDGET
> growth rates
> 
> pakistan is simply dwarfed by india.



Such a shame on India man, even with all these massive military budget and financial reserves India cannot flex its muscle on Pakistan. Its funny how India always demands something from Pakistan and in the end Pakistan gives India the middle finger. This possibly has to be the biggest shame on Indians that they cant even get a control on a puny nation like Pakistan. India's population is 1.1 billion and Pakistan's population is 150 million people, such a shame India cant even flex its own will on such a small nation. In my opinion brother, SHAME ON INDIA in this issue.


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## Brown

notorious_eagle said:


> Such a shame on India man, even with all these massive military budget and financial reserves India cannot flex its muscle on Pakistan. Its funny how India always demands something from Pakistan and in the end Pakistan gives India the middle finger. This possibly has to be the biggest shame on Indians that they cant even get a control on a puny nation like Pakistan. India's population is 1.1 billion and Pakistan's population is 150 million people, such a shame India cant even flex its own will on such a small nation. In my opinion brother, SHAME ON INDIA in this issue.



Helping India will only hep Pakistan to get ride of what Zardari calls cancer else it will spread and infect other.


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## paritosh

RescueRanger said:


> I hate this mine is bigger then your competitons. Eitherway i see a Bright and prosperous Pakistan in the years to come. (Inshallah)



that is progressive thinking my friend..cheers!


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## paritosh

notorious_eagle said:


> Such a shame, even with this massive gap India cant flex its muscle on Pakistan . Its the same as if Canada gives the middle finger to the US , massive shame for India.



well it seems you ended up making fun of pakistan.it's as if you are saying that India being mighty and powerful is not attacking weak pakistan...so pakistan wins


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## phoenix80

there is no comparision here ...... India has to reform and move ahead, pakistan has to on its own basis too ...


The advantage India had was we have maintained democracy even at times when the Prime Minister (Indira Gandhi) wanted Army to take over in Emergency Days ..... The then COAS and all Army Commanders refused, saying administration is not Army's job. I think that was a turning point in our history where the GoI was told to govern and not dictate.

1990 was eye opener and reforms undertaken then over next decade which saw poor defence preparedness, was a boon to India. Kargil was again a turner for 10 years of neglect in this field due to economic reasons saw reversal of trend as there was now booming indian economy to support rapid expansion and modernisation of IDF

About population, well we have Muslims who cry foul if you say family planning and polio drops in fact they think the latter is meant to sterilise them and they reproduce like anything with 5-7 children per couple living in maximum two rooms and they NEVER EVER construct toilets. Infact a Khemkhani Muslim soldier under me had the guts to get vesectomy done as he had had two sons and he was banned fom offering namaz at local mosque for "violating" teachings of Koran!!!!!!! he went on to abuse the maulvi over this matter.

Not to be outdone by Muslim stupidity ... there are Hindu nutcases who offer additional incentives to Hindu couples having more than 3 children!!!!!!!!!

EVen educated Muslims and Hindus suffer from this BS and heights is they know better.

So whatever advances we make, are nullified due to population as the size does matter in this case and it pulls the statistics down.

Right now we import wheat and sugar from Pakistan as part of SAARC policy, although we are surplus in both. The reasoning is that regional development is a must for indian development and security. In a way we are cousins so what estranged.

India does not attack Pakistan not for want of military might. Hell anyone with the manpower we have can over run any other country ultimately. Its not nuclear weapons too. Its just the fact that we have enough problems of our own to get burdened by new additional problems. The same reason why Bangladesh can literally disband its army and peacefully develop. Its tough to have 25 separate regions to govern (India was never a united country historically) plus 4 separate races .......

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Luftwaffe

Agree or Disagree lets stick to the reality....

Thar Coal/mining and Gawadar is the only source of multiplying Pakistan FOREX...as everyone already read it can produce from shipping/port up to 60 Billion dollars a year even if its a figure not digestable i will make it 25 billion dollars a year and once deep sea Oil extraction starts we can turn this figure to 35 Billion dollars Add Thus coal...40 Billion dollars this makes Pakistan reserves >>200 Billion dollars in 5 years (my maths lol). Though i am not an expert but its true gawadar and thar coal together can increase FOREX from 11 billion to 100 billion plus in few years. All we need is Investment and time and expertise in these 2 projects as soon as possible i am not discussing we don't have nothing in khazana just letting you guys know if a serious investment takes place u will see results within 5-8 years InshaAllah.


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## notorious_eagle

paritosh said:


> well it seems you ended up making fun of pakistan.it's as if you are saying that India being mighty and powerful is not attacking weak pakistan...so pakistan wins



It was sarcasm my friend, since according to you guys India is such a mighty superior country how come they cant flex there muscle on Pakistan.


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## paritosh

is everybody being sarcastic here??
please compare pakistan's trade with EU,US,ASEAN...and that of india...if mere forex reserves dont satisfy you...and pakistan had a growth rate of how much??
it is true that india has a lower growth rate of 6.5 to7% this time...due to the global recession...but please doub;e check on the pakistani growth rate...and provide a credible source.


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## paritosh

notorious_eagle said:


> It was sarcasm my friend, since according to you guys India is such a mighty superior country how come they cant flex there muscle on Pakistan.



well friend the funny thing is...we already are.


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## Omar1984

Pakistan just needs a little more time. Slow and steady wins the race.


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## notorious_eagle

paritosh said:


> well friend the funny thing is...we already are.



Hahahaha, how in a Bollywood movie . It amazes me how blind some of my Indian brothers are, how they would blindly follow whatever their government will tell them.


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## Jihad

Truth Bites said:


> pakobserver.net/200901/11/news/topstories01.asp



I think you can expect a ban very soon, enough with the dick measurement contests, this thread has lost its value. 
Also, mind it with the racial slurs.


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## notorious_eagle

Truth Bites said:


> pakobserver.net/200901/11/news/topstories01.asp



You are absolutely right, we cant compare with India. India's 85.7&#37; population lives under $2.50, we certinely dont have that. Btw; we are not the ones who need super small condoms , where is your mardangi pride now.
P.S. Mods my apologies but just wanted to have a small crack at this.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Vs, threads are really quite pointless, especially when comparing two very different economies.

Thread closed.


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