# Pakistan's Service Rifle (G-3, Type-56) Replacement Competition 2016.



## Zarvan

As it is now fully confirmed that Pakistan has decided to replace G3 with a new standard weapon. For this a board of Army officers led by a Major General will evaluate all major Guns used by leading militaries in the world and one of them will be chosen for Pakistan so it's time to discuss potential candidates and their features.
By the way MPT-76 are first to come for evaluation.
@WebMaster @Horus @Oscar @Irfan Baloch @balixd @Icarus @kaonalpha @syedali73 @Sulman Badshah @Wolfhound @nair @SpArK @GURU DUTT @Imran Khan @Arsalan @RescueRanger @Bratva @Slav Defence @ajpirzada @DESERT FIGHTER @

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## kaonalpha

Zarvan said:


> As it is now fully confirmed that Pakistan has decided to replace G3 with a new standard weapon. For this a board of Army officers led by a Major General will evaluate all major Guns used by leading militaries in the world and one of them will be chosen for Pakistan so it's time to discuss potential candidates and their features.
> By the way MPT-76 are first to come for evaluation.
> @WebMaster @Horus @Oscar @Irfan Baloch @balixd @Icarus @kaonalpha @syedali73 @Sulman Badshah @Wolfhound @nair @SpArK @GURU DUTT @Imran Khan @Arsalan @RescueRanger @Bratva @Slav Defence @ajpirzada @DESERT FIGHTER @


zarvan it will take at least a year or so . So i would recommend you sit back relax and when me or any one else gets a fair idea we will share it with you.

Cheers.

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## atatwolf

Zarvan said:


> As it is now fully confirmed that Pakistan has decided to replace G3 with a new standard weapon. For this a board of Army officers led by a Major General will evaluate all major Guns used by leading militaries in the world and one of them will be chosen for Pakistan so it's time to discuss potential candidates and their features.
> By the way MPT-76 are first to come for evaluation.
> @WebMaster @Horus @Oscar @Irfan Baloch @balixd @Icarus @kaonalpha @syedali73 @Sulman Badshah @Wolfhound @nair @SpArK @GURU DUTT @Imran Khan @Arsalan @RescueRanger @Bratva @Slav Defence @ajpirzada @DESERT FIGHTER @


Review of the new MPT

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## MastanKhan

Sir,

The term used is Assault RIFLE---not a GUN-----guns are those which are long steel cylinders with large holes in them that lob a shell many miles away---and you need a crew to operate them.

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## Zarvan

*MKEK MPT-76 Mehmetçik-2 automatic rifle (Turkey)*



MKEK MPT-76 Mehmetçik-2 automatic rifle






MKEK MPT-76 Mehmetçik-2 automatic rifle



*Caliber*

7.62x51 NATO

*Action*

Gas operated

*Length, mm*

920

*Barrel length, mm*

410

*Weight, kg*

4.1

*Rate of fire, rounds/minute*

650

*Magazine capacity, rounds*

20



Turkish defense manufacturer MKEK (_Makina ve Kimya Endüstrisi Kurumu_) began development of a new assault rifle for Turkish armed forces in around 2007. By 2008, MKEK produced a 5.56mm rifle called Mehmetçik-1, based on German HK 416 rifle. After several years of tests and development, Turkish army re-evaluated its requirements, and, based on its actual combat experience with various calibers in service (7.62x51 in HK G3, 7.62x39 in Kalashnikov AKM and 5.56x45 in HK 33), decided to stay with 7.62x51 NATO round for its next army rifle.
As a result, in May 2014 MKEK delivered first batch of 7.62x51mm MKEK MPT-76 automatic rifles to Turkish army. “MPT” stands for _Milli Piyade Tüfeği_, or National Infantry Rifle in English. MKEK MPT-76 rifle appears to be visually and technically similar to German HK 417 rifle. Fate the 5.56mm Mehmetçik-1 rifle is uncertain at this point (May, 2014).



MKEK MPT-76 rifle is gas operated, select-fire weapon. It uses short stroke gas piston, located above the barrel, and AR-10/Ar-15 style rotary bolt, bolt carrier and return spring system. Aluminum alloy receiver also is based on AR-10/AR-15 design, with upper and lower halves being connected by two captive cross-pins. Rifle features M16-style charging handle, ambidextrous magazine release, bolt hold-open release and safety / fire selector controls. Ammunition is fed from 20-round box magazines, made from translucent polymer. Rifle is equipped with telescoping, adjustable shoulder stock. Front sight is mounted on the gas block and features folding base. Integral Picatinny rail on top of the receiver can hosts aperture-type rear sight (fully adjustable for range and windage), as well as quick-detachable carrying handle with “see-through” channel for standard iron sights plus its own set of iron sights for short-range applications (with U-shaped notch rear sight), built into the top of the handle. Carrying handle can be easily replaced with any type of red-dot, telescope or night sight with appropriate mountings. Additional Picatinny rails on the forend permit mounting of various accessories. Knife-bayonet may be attached for the barrel, if required.

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## In arduis fidelis

Whichever rifle gets selected,i hope its 7.62 or multi caliber because Pakistan Army simply cannot live without that round in the diverse topography of Pakistan.

Rifle worth looking at for evaluations
Heckler & Koch HK416 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## WaLeEdK2

Rafay Jamil said:


> Whichever rifle gets selected,i hope its 7.62 or multi caliber because Pakistan Army simply cannot live without that round in the diverse topography of Pakistan.
> 
> Rifle worth looking at for evaluations
> Heckler & Koch HK416 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


If PA wants a 7.62 then what they should be testing is Hk-417

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## Water Car Engineer

WaLeEdK2 said:


> If PA wants a 7.62 then what they should be testing is Hk-417
> View attachment 240556
> 
> View attachment 240557




The Turkish one is almost the same thing, might be cheaper with more industrial benefits with in the Turkish package?

Then again you guys do have a long relationship with HK.

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## Zarvan

*Heckler-Koch HK417 assault rifle (Germany)*
_


2006 prototype of HK417 rifle with 20" barrel; note that it used HK G3-compatible magazines
Image: Heckler & Koch_


_


Current (2008) version of HK417 rifle with 12" / 30cm barrel, basic version
Image: Heckler & Koch_



_


Current (2008) version of HK417 rifle with 12" / 30cm barrel, fitted withtelescope sight with night vision adapter, folding bipod and a sound moderator(silencer)
Image: Heckler & Koch_



_


Current (2008) version of HK417 rifle with 16" / 40cm barrel
Image: Heckler & Koch_



_


Current (2008) version of HK417 rifle with 20" / 50cm barrel, with telescopesight and detachable bipod
Image: Heckler & Koch_





*Caliber*: 7,62x51mm NATO
*Action:* Gas operated, rotating bolt
*Overall length*: 905 - 985 mm with 406 mm barrel / 35.6" - 38.8" with 16" barrel
*Barrel length*: 305 mm / 12", 406 mm / 16" or 508 mm / 20"
*Weight*: 4.36 kg - 4.96 kg, depending on barrel length
*Rate of fire*: 600 rounds per minute
*Magazine capacity*: 10 or 20 rounds



HK417 assault rifle was recently developed by famous German arms-making company Heckler und Koch, as a "big brother" to the 5.56mmHK416 assault rifle. Information on this weapon first surfaced in 2005, on the wave of new interest for the 7.62mm NATO caliber military rifles. This interestcame in from experience of international forces gained in Afghanistan and Iraq, where increased range and penetration of the 7.62mm NATO bullets was (and still is) quite useful. Several companies developed new or updated versions of 7.62mm weapons, with intent to sell to military, law enforcement and in certain cases - to civilian shootersas well. The HK417 is one of such weapons. It is primarily oriented toward US market, as it mimics the popular 5.56mm AR-15 / M16 rifles in external appearance, controls, and many design features.However, there are more than few new and original features in HK417,including Heckler-Koch's patented piston-operated gas system,user-changeable barrels etc. Like most other competitors, HK417 riflesare available in several barrel lengths, suitable for full scale ofmilitary operations, from close combat in urban or forest areas and upto long-range accurate shooting.

HK417rifle is a gas operated,selective fired weapon of modular design. Ituses short-stroke gas piston located above the barrel, that operatesthe 7-lug rotating bolt. Barrels are cold hammer forged, and could bereplaced by end user in several minutes using simple tools. There are four basic patterns of barrels available for HK417 as of now (2008):305mm / 12" and 406 mm / 16" standard barrels and 406 mm / 16" and 508 mm/ 20" accurized barrels. Accurized barrels provide 1 MOA accuracy (with proper ammunition). Receiver ismade from high grade aluminum alloy and consists of two parts (upperand lower), connected by two cross-pins a-la AR-15 / M16 rifles. Combination-type safety / fire selectorallows for single shots and full automatic mode. HK417 retains all M16-style controls, including last round bolt hold-open device, bolt closure device, rear-based charging handle and magazine release button on the right side of the magazine well. HK417 isfitted with four Picatinny rails on free-float handguard as standard, and will accept any type of sighting devices on STANAG-1913 compliant mounts. It also can accept modified HK AG36/AG-C 40mm grenade launcher, which is clamped directly to bottom rail. Buttstock is of modified M4 design, multi-position telescoped. Production HK417 rifles useproprietary 10- or 20-round box magazines, made of translucent polymer(early prototypes used HK G3 magazines).

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## rockstar08

Zarvan said:


> *Heckler-Koch HK417 assault rifle (Germany)*
> _
> 
> 
> 2006 prototype of HK417 rifle with 20" barrel; note that it used HK G3-compatible magazines
> Image: Heckler & Koch_
> 
> 
> _
> 
> 
> Current (2008) version of HK417 rifle with 12" / 30cm barrel, basic version
> Image: Heckler & Koch_
> 
> 
> 
> _
> 
> 
> Current (2008) version of HK417 rifle with 12" / 30cm barrel, fitted withtelescope sight with night vision adapter, folding bipod and a sound moderator(silencer)
> Image: Heckler & Koch_
> 
> 
> 
> _
> 
> 
> Current (2008) version of HK417 rifle with 16" / 40cm barrel
> Image: Heckler & Koch_
> 
> 
> 
> _
> 
> 
> Current (2008) version of HK417 rifle with 20" / 50cm barrel, with telescopesight and detachable bipod
> Image: Heckler & Koch_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Caliber*: 7,62x51mm NATO
> *Action:* Gas operated, rotating bolt
> *Overall length*: 905 - 985 mm with 406 mm barrel / 35.6" - 38.8" with 16" barrel
> *Barrel length*: 305 mm / 12", 406 mm / 16" or 508 mm / 20"
> *Weight*: 4.36 kg - 4.96 kg, depending on barrel length
> *Rate of fire*: 600 rounds per minute
> *Magazine capacity*: 10 or 20 rounds
> 
> 
> 
> HK417 assault rifle was recently developed by famous German arms-making company Heckler und Koch, as a "big brother" to the 5.56mmHK416 assault rifle. Information on this weapon first surfaced in 2005, on the wave of new interest for the 7.62mm NATO caliber military rifles. This interestcame in from experience of international forces gained in Afghanistan and Iraq, where increased range and penetration of the 7.62mm NATO bullets was (and still is) quite useful. Several companies developed new or updated versions of 7.62mm weapons, with intent to sell to military, law enforcement and in certain cases - to civilian shootersas well. The HK417 is one of such weapons. It is primarily oriented toward US market, as it mimics the popular 5.56mm AR-15 / M16 rifles in external appearance, controls, and many design features.However, there are more than few new and original features in HK417,including Heckler-Koch's patented piston-operated gas system,user-changeable barrels etc. Like most other competitors, HK417 riflesare available in several barrel lengths, suitable for full scale ofmilitary operations, from close combat in urban or forest areas and upto long-range accurate shooting.
> 
> HK417rifle is a gas operated,selective fired weapon of modular design. Ituses short-stroke gas piston located above the barrel, that operatesthe 7-lug rotating bolt. Barrels are cold hammer forged, and could bereplaced by end user in several minutes using simple tools. There are four basic patterns of barrels available for HK417 as of now (2008):305mm / 12" and 406 mm / 16" standard barrels and 406 mm / 16" and 508 mm/ 20" accurized barrels. Accurized barrels provide 1 MOA accuracy (with proper ammunition). Receiver ismade from high grade aluminum alloy and consists of two parts (upperand lower), connected by two cross-pins a-la AR-15 / M16 rifles. Combination-type safety / fire selectorallows for single shots and full automatic mode. HK417 retains all M16-style controls, including last round bolt hold-open device, bolt closure device, rear-based charging handle and magazine release button on the right side of the magazine well. HK417 isfitted with four Picatinny rails on free-float handguard as standard, and will accept any type of sighting devices on STANAG-1913 compliant mounts. It also can accept modified HK AG36/AG-C 40mm grenade launcher, which is clamped directly to bottom rail. Buttstock is of modified M4 design, multi-position telescoped. Production HK417 rifles useproprietary 10- or 20-round box magazines, made of translucent polymer(early prototypes used HK G3 magazines).



I approve this one ... Buy it

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## DESERT FIGHTER

rockstar08 said:


> I approve this one ... Buy it



I'd go for the Turkish (if it passes tests).. Reason ... It would be more affordable than getting from our old HK buddies... Besides Turkiye is out trusted brotherly nation... Good to see the increasing defence cooperation with a em..

A lot of great things coming out of it!



Water Car Engineer said:


> The Turkish one is almost the same thing, might be cheaper with more industrial benefits with in the Turkish package?
> 
> Then again you guys do have a long relationship with HK.


Weate talkin about equipping over a million men (including Para mil) .. So whatever they end up with "finally" it's going to come with ToT or licsense manufacturing.

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## Hell hound

i know it is expensive as hell but can we have it

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## Tipu7

We are changing caliber of our guns now??
From 7.62 to 5.56??
Also is AK12 also in competition???

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## Kompromat

SCAR 17 would be my pick, its modular, adaptable, ergonomic, light weight and it comes in a lot of variants and barrel lengths, grenade launchers etc

It will be cheaper when mass produced in Pakistan. It will also satisfy most of our DMR, SBR requirements and its compact variant can replace our MP-5s.

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## Zarvan

Horus said:


> SCAR 17 would be my pick, its modular, adaptable, ergonomic, light weight and it comes in a lot of variants and barrel lengths, grenade launchers etc
> 
> It will be cheaper when mass produced in Pakistan. It will also satisfy most of our DMR, SBR requirements and its compact variant can replace our MP-5s.


Great Britain




*FN SCAR: Mk 16 and Mk 17- Special Forces Combat Assault Rifle (USA/ Belgium)*
_


FN SCAR-L / Mk.16 rifle prototype (1s generation, late 2004), left side view_



_


FN SCAR-L / Mk.16 rifle, 2nd generation prototype, with FN EGLM 40mm grenade launcher attached_



_


FN SCAR-H / Mk.17 rifle prototype in CQC (Close Quarter Combat,short barrel) configuration,7.62x51 mm NATO version_



_


FN SCAR-L / Mk.16 rifle partially disassembled; note additional quick-detachable barrel
Image: Christopher Rohling via CharlesCutshaw_



_


5.56mmNATO FN SCAR-L / Mk.16 rifles of current production, top to bottom in Long Barrel (LB), standard (Std) and Close Quarter Combat(CQC) configurations
Image: FNH USA_



_


7.62mm NATO FN SCAR-H / Mk.17 rifles of current production, topto bottom in Long Barrel (LB), bstandard (Std) and Close Quarter Combat(CQC) configurations
Image: FNH USA_




5.56mm FN SCAR-L PDW "Personal Defense Weapon"



*Mk.16SCAR-L (Light)* *Mk.17 SCAR-H (Heavy)
Caliber* 5.56x45 NATO 7.62x51NATO basic
7.62x39 M43 and others additionally
*Overall length, standard configuration* 850 mm(max) / 620 mm (min) 997 mm (max) / 770 mm (min)
*Barrel length* 172mm/6.5" (PDW), 254mm/10" (CQC), 355mm/14" (Std), 457mm/18" (LB) 330mm/13"(CQC), 406mm/16" (Std), 508mm/20" (LB)
*Weight* 3.5kg empty 3.86 kg empty
*Rate of fire* 600 rounds per minute 600 rounds per minute
*Magazinecapacity* 30 rounds standard 20 rounds (7.62x51 NATO)
30 rounds (7.62x39 M43)


The US Special Operations Command(US SOCOM) issued a solicitation for the procurement of SOF CombatAssault Rifles (SCAR)on October 15th, 2003. This solicitation requested a new combat rifle,specially tailored for the current and proposed future needs of the US Special Forces,which are somewhat different from then current US Army requirements,which were being fulfilled (unsucessfully) by the newest Heckler-Koch XM8 assaultrifle. The key difference in basic requirements between XM8 and SCAR was that, while XM8 was a single-caliber weapon system, tailored for 5.56x45mm NATO ammunition, the SCAR would be available in various different calibers. Initial SOF requirements included two basic versions of SCAR system - the SCAR Light (SCAR-L), available in 5.56mm NATO, and the SCAR heavy (SCAR-H), which should be initially available in significantly more powerful 7.62x51 NATO chambering, and should be easily adaptable in the field to other chamberings (this still is not the case).The key idea of SCAR rifle system is that it will provide the Special Forces operators with wide variety of options, from short-barreled 5.56mm SCAR-L CQC variation,tailored for urban close combat, and up to long range 7.62x51 SCAR-H Sniper variant. Both SCAR-L and SCAR-H are available in three basic versions, Standard(S), Close Quarters Combat (CQC) and Long Barrel (LB). All these variants, regardless the caliber and exact configuration, willprovide the operator with the same controls layout, same handling and maintenance procedures, and same optional equipment, such as sights,scopes, andother current and future attachments. Since 2014, an even shorter version of the SCAR-L is available as SCAR-L PDW - Personal Defense Weapon.



Late in 2004 USSOCOM announced, that the winner for the initial SCAR contracts is the FN USA, an US-based subsidiary of the famous Belgian company Fabrique Nationale Herstal. Зrototype rifles were manufactured by FN Manufacturing Inc, US-based subsidiary to FN Herstal; This company will also handle series production of rifles. Starting mid-2005, first SCAR rifles went to end users in US Special Operation Forces. Since USSOCOM uses Navy-type "mark" designations, SCAR rifles were officially designated as 5.56mm Rifle Mark 16 (SCAR-L / Light) and 7.62mm Rifle Mark 17 (SCAR-H/ Heavy). Despite original plans, only 7,62mm SCAR-H rifles are in current service with Us Special Forces. However, SCAR system enjoys steady and growing sales worrldwide, with numerous Special Forces buying both 5.56mm and 7.62mm versions. Finally, it seems that Belgian army is adopting 5.56mm SCAR-L as a general issue infantry rifle, to replace aging 5.56mm FN FNC rifles which are no longer made by FN.



All variants of FN SCAR rifles feature gas operated,short stroke piston action with rotating bolt locking. Bolt has seven radial locking lugs that lock directly into the barrel extension. 
Receiver is made from two parts, upper and lower, connected with two cross-pins. Upper part is made from extruded aluminium, lower part is made from polymer. SCAR-L and SCAR-H use similar upper receivers that differ only in the size of ejection port. Other different parts include caliber-specific bolts, barrels, and lower receivers with integral magazine housing. Parts commonality between SCAR-L and SCAR-H is an astonishing 90%. Barrels are quick-detachable, and held in the upper receiver with two cross-bolts. Barrel change procedure requires minimum amount of tools, takes just several minutes and there is no need to adjust the headspace after the change.
The trigger unit with ambidextrous safety-fire mode selectors witch allows for single shots and full automatic fire, with no provisions for limited-length bursts mode. The charging handle could be easily installed on either side of the weapon, so the upper receiver has respective cuts on both sides. Top of the upper receiver is covered by the full-length integral Picatinny rail (MIL-STD 1913); additional Picatinny rails are mounted on both sides and under the free-floating handguards. Side-folding polymer buttstock is adjustable for length of pull, and is shaped to provide positive cheekrest with adjustable cheek support. SCAR rifles are fitted with removable, adjustable iron sights, with folding diopter-type rear sight on the receiver rail, and folding frontsight onthe gas block. Any additional type of sighting equipment, necessary for current tasks, including telescope and night sights, can be installed using MIL-STD 1913 compatible mounts. 
Mk.16 SCAR-L rifle uses any 5.56mm STANAG (M16-type) magazines; Mk.17 SCAR-H uses proprietary 20-round magazines in 7.62x51 NATO.

_Special thanks to Charles Cutshawfor invaluable information and images_

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## FunkyGen

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> I'd go for the Turkish (if it passes tests)


recoil man recoil! its almost the same as G3...


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## Quwa

Tipu7 said:


> We are changing caliber of our guns now??
> From 7.62 to 5.56??
> Also is AK12 also in competition???


I don't think Zarvan indicated that the caliber would change.


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## Yazp

The best option is the HK417, not the MKEK MPT-76.
We already produce it's ammo, and it's H&K, so we shouldn't have much problems to adapt to the new rifle.

And before we start buying some silly Turkish guns, look at the quality of their weapons!
I agree they're not the same manufacturer and stuff, but still look at the utter fail of that gun.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Yazp said:


> The best option is the HK417, not the MKEK MPT-76.
> We already produce it's ammo, and it's H&K, so we shouldn't have much problems to adapt to the new rifle.





76 is pretty much a clone of 417... And uses the same 7.62 calib.


> And before we start buying some silly Turkish guns, look at the quality of their weapons!
> I agree they're not the same manufacturer and stuff, but still look at the utter fail of that gun.



Yeah that shotgun sucks ... A frnd bought it and curses himself for that.. But you can't compare a civilian shotgun to the brand new standard rifle adopted by Turkish military ..

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## 544_delta

WaLeEdK2 said:


> If PA wants a 7.62 then what they should be testing is Hk-417
> View attachment 240556
> 
> View attachment 240557


highly unlikely due to high costs....it'd be awesome to have it though


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## Zarvan

*QBZ-95 and QBZ-95-1, QBZ-97 [Type 95, 95-1 and 97] assault rifle (People Republic of China)*






5.8x42mm QBZ-95 assault rifle, left side view






5.8x42mm QBZ-95 assault rifle, right side view; magazine is removed and a 4X telescope sight is installed






5.56x45mm QBZ-97 / Type 97 assault rifle; note different magazine port, designed to accept STANAG / M16-type magazines







improved 5.8x42mm QBZ-95-1 (Type 95-1) assault rifle





5.8x42mm QBZ-95-1 (Type 95-1) short assault rifle (carbine) with new 35-mm underbarrel grenade launcher



_*Data for QBZ-95 (QBZ-97 in parenthesizes, where differs from QBZ-95)*_
Caliber: 5.8x42 mm (5.56x45 mm NATO)
Action: Gas operated, rotating bolt
Overall length: 760 mm
Barrel length: 520 mm
Weight: 3.4 kg unloaded
Rate of fire: ~ 650 rounds per minute
Magazine capacity: 30 rounds

In the late 1980s Chinese designers developed a 5.8 x 42 cartridge, apparently designated DBP87, which is claimed to be superior to both the 5.56 mm NATO and the 5.54 mm Soviet. This cartridge develops a muzzle velocity of 930 metres per second from a standard barrel, with a bullet weighing 4.26 gram.

As soon as the ammunition was ready, the PLA began to develop an entirely new and much more modern family of small arms based on the same action. This family, known as QBZ-95 ('Qing Buqiang Zu' = Light Rifles family, 1995), was first displayed outside the PLA in 1997, when China took over Hong Kong; it was observed that the Chinese guards were armed with a new, modern looking bullpup rifle. In fact it is one of an entirely new family of weapons, all designed around the same action and bullpup layout, which include the assault rifle, a shorter carbine, a light support weapon (with a bipod, a heavier barrel and large capacity magazine), and a sniper rifle. While being quite similar inside, these guns have different body shapes and cannot be converted from one configuration to another. The QBZ-95 line of weapons is now spreading throughout the PLA, commencing with elite units.

The QBZ-95 is a gas operated, magazine fed, automatic weapon with a bullpup layout. It has a short stroke gas piston and a rotating bolt. The charging handle is located at the top of the receiver, under the carrying handle. The housing is made from polymer, with an integral carrying handle, which holds the rear sight base, and has mounting points for optical or night vision scopes. The ejection port is made only at the right side of the weapon, so it cannot be fired from the left shoulder. Standard sights are of the open type, graduated from 100 to 500 meters. The front part of the barrel in the standard version is left unobstructed, so the QBZ-95 rifle can be used to launch rifle grenades. It also can be fitted with an underbarrel grenade launcher or with a knife bayonet. A compact carbine version, sometimes referred to as the CAR-95, cannot use either a grenade launcher or a bayonet, because of the much shortened barrel. Fire controls of QBZ-95 rifle consist of a trigger and a safety/selector switch, located (quite inconveniently) at the rear left of the receiver, behind the magazine housing. QBZ-95 can fire single shots or bursts.

The export version, QBZ-97, which is chambered for popular 5.56 x 45 NATO ammunition, is internally similar to QBZ-95, but has a different, much deeper magazine housing, which accepts a NATO-standard (M16-type) magazines.


During 2010-2011 PLA has adopted an improved version of the Type 95 / QBZ-95 rifle, known as Type 95-1 / QBZ-95-1. This rifle includes several important improvements, based on the field experience with original rifles. Polymer stock is made stronger, barrel is mproved to provide longer service life and better accuracy. Pistol grip and trigger aguard are redesigned, and selector / safety switch is moved to much more comfortable position, right above the pistol grip. Other improvements include addition of the bolt hold-open device and gas regulator. Ejection port is moved forward slightly to ensure that spent cases are ejected forward and to the right, allowing for left-hand shooting if necessary. Type 95-1 / QBZ-95-1 rifles and carbines now can be equipped with new, 35-mm underbarrel grenade launcher, known as QLG-10A. Rifle grenades still can be fired from the muzzle using special blank ammunition.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Zarvan said:


> *QBZ-95 and QBZ-95-1, QBZ-97 [Type 95, 95-1 and 97] assault rifle (People Republic of China)*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 5.8x42mm QBZ-95 assault rifle, left side view
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 5.8x42mm QBZ-95 assault rifle, right side view; magazine is removed and a 4X telescope sight is installed
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 5.56x45mm QBZ-97 / Type 97 assault rifle; note different magazine port, designed to accept STANAG / M16-type magazines
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> improved 5.8x42mm QBZ-95-1 (Type 95-1) assault rifle
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 5.8x42mm QBZ-95-1 (Type 95-1) short assault rifle (carbine) with new 35-mm underbarrel grenade launcher
> 
> 
> 
> _*Data for QBZ-95 (QBZ-97 in parenthesizes, where differs from QBZ-95)*_
> Caliber: 5.8x42 mm (5.56x45 mm NATO)
> Action: Gas operated, rotating bolt
> Overall length: 760 mm
> Barrel length: 520 mm
> Weight: 3.4 kg unloaded
> Rate of fire: ~ 650 rounds per minute
> Magazine capacity: 30 rounds
> 
> In the late 1980s Chinese designers developed a 5.8 x 42 cartridge, apparently designated DBP87, which is claimed to be superior to both the 5.56 mm NATO and the 5.54 mm Soviet. This cartridge develops a muzzle velocity of 930 metres per second from a standard barrel, with a bullet weighing 4.26 gram.
> 
> As soon as the ammunition was ready, the PLA began to develop an entirely new and much more modern family of small arms based on the same action. This family, known as QBZ-95 ('Qing Buqiang Zu' = Light Rifles family, 1995), was first displayed outside the PLA in 1997, when China took over Hong Kong; it was observed that the Chinese guards were armed with a new, modern looking bullpup rifle. In fact it is one of an entirely new family of weapons, all designed around the same action and bullpup layout, which include the assault rifle, a shorter carbine, a light support weapon (with a bipod, a heavier barrel and large capacity magazine), and a sniper rifle. While being quite similar inside, these guns have different body shapes and cannot be converted from one configuration to another. The QBZ-95 line of weapons is now spreading throughout the PLA, commencing with elite units.
> 
> The QBZ-95 is a gas operated, magazine fed, automatic weapon with a bullpup layout. It has a short stroke gas piston and a rotating bolt. The charging handle is located at the top of the receiver, under the carrying handle. The housing is made from polymer, with an integral carrying handle, which holds the rear sight base, and has mounting points for optical or night vision scopes. The ejection port is made only at the right side of the weapon, so it cannot be fired from the left shoulder. Standard sights are of the open type, graduated from 100 to 500 meters. The front part of the barrel in the standard version is left unobstructed, so the QBZ-95 rifle can be used to launch rifle grenades. It also can be fitted with an underbarrel grenade launcher or with a knife bayonet. A compact carbine version, sometimes referred to as the CAR-95, cannot use either a grenade launcher or a bayonet, because of the much shortened barrel. Fire controls of QBZ-95 rifle consist of a trigger and a safety/selector switch, located (quite inconveniently) at the rear left of the receiver, behind the magazine housing. QBZ-95 can fire single shots or bursts.
> 
> The export version, QBZ-97, which is chambered for popular 5.56 x 45 NATO ammunition, is internally similar to QBZ-95, but has a different, much deeper magazine housing, which accepts a NATO-standard (M16-type) magazines.
> 
> 
> During 2010-2011 PLA has adopted an improved version of the Type 95 / QBZ-95 rifle, known as Type 95-1 / QBZ-95-1. This rifle includes several important improvements, based on the field experience with original rifles. Polymer stock is made stronger, barrel is mproved to provide longer service life and better accuracy. Pistol grip and trigger aguard are redesigned, and selector / safety switch is moved to much more comfortable position, right above the pistol grip. Other improvements include addition of the bolt hold-open device and gas regulator. Ejection port is moved forward slightly to ensure that spent cases are ejected forward and to the right, allowing for left-hand shooting if necessary. Type 95-1 / QBZ-95-1 rifles and carbines now can be equipped with new, 35-mm underbarrel grenade launcher, known as QLG-10A. Rifle grenades still can be fired from the muzzle using special blank ammunition.



ATF Balochistan use the 97...


I doubt Army will ever get this.



FunkyGen said:


> recoil man recoil! its almost the same as G3...



417

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## Amaa'n

a humble suggestion to chief - sell all those G-3 to civies with valid license....you can make ton of money with that 

btw i think it will come down to QZB, HK417 & MPT

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## Zarvan

*Kalashnikov AK-12 assault rifle (Russia)*



Kalashnikov AK-12 assault rifle, early prtotype as shown in 2013






Kalashnikov AK-12 assault rifle, prtotype that participated in "Ratnik" trials, photo taken in June, 2015.
Shown here with belorussian-made Red Dot (collimating) sight






Kalashnikov AK-12 assault rifle, prtotype that participated in "Ratnik" trials, photo taken in June, 2015






Kalashnikov AK-12 assault rifle, prtotype that participated in "Ratnik" trials, photo taken in June, 2015






Kalashnikov AK-12 assault rifle, prtotype that participated in "Ratnik" trials, photo taken in June, 2015
Note that bolt is locked back by bolt hold-open device




Author of this site is shooting AK-12 during Russian Army-2015 expo, June 2015
Gun is first fired in full automatic mode, then in 2-round bursts



*Caliber*

5.45x39, 7,62x39

*Action*

Gas operated, rotary bolt

*Length, mm*

945 / 725

*Barrel length, mm*

415

*Weight, kg*

3.3 (less magazine)

*Rate of fire, rounds/minute*

600

*Magazine capacity, rounds*

30, 60 or 95



Kalashnikov AK-12 assault rifle is a newest creation of the IZMASH factory (now part of the Kalashnikov concern). It is intended to replace in production older Kalashnikov AK-74M andAK-100-series rifles for domestic use (by Russian army and LE), as well as for export. It was first displayed to press in January, 2012, and is believed to be still in development. AK-12 apparently stands for “_Avtomat Kalashnikova, 2012_”. Kalashnikov AK-12 assault rifle is planned to be available in two versions – “light” and “heavy”, with former adapted for cartridges like 5.45x39, 5.56x45, 6.5 Grendel and 7,62x39, and the latter for more powerful cartridges like 7,62x51 NATO. The main goal in development of the Kalashnikov AK-12 assault rifle appears to be to improve ergonomics and tactical flexibility of the weapon, while maintaining traditional high reliability and simplicity of the parent weapon. It is yet to be seen if Kalashnikov AK-12 assault rifle will live up to these expectations.



During 2013 and 2014 AK-12 rifles were officially tested as a part of the Russian army "Ratnik" trials program. As a result, 5.45x39 and 7.62x39 versions of the AK-12 were recommended for initial batch production and field trials, along with its main rivals, AEK-971 series A545 and A762 assault rifles. It seems that at the time being only one version, chambered for 5.45x39 M74 ammunition, will be produced for troops trials.



Kalashnikov AK-12 assault rifle is gas operated, selective fire weapon using traditional “Kalashnikov type” action with long stroke gas piston and rotary bolt locking. Bolt group is noticeably lightened to decrease recol and improve accuracy in full-automatic fire. Barrel has improved rifling for better accuracy, and a revised muzzle brake. The receiver is redesigned, key modification being new top cover of more rigid design. Elongated top cover is removably attached to the receiver using two dovetails (at the middle and at the front) plus a captive cross-pin at the rear. To remove top cover, user has to push the cross pin out as far as it will go, then slide the cover back and pull it up and off the gun. Safety / fire selector unit is also revised, to provide more ergonomic ambidextrous switch with 4 positions (Safe, Semi-auto, 2-rd bursts, Automatic). Safety / selector levers are located above the pistol grip, at both sides of the gun. Charging handle is Z-shaped and is attached to the gas piston. It can be rotated to either side of the gun once the bolt group is removed from the gun during disassembly. When gun is fired, charging handle reciprocates along with the bolt. New side-folding, telescoping adjustable stock is provided for AK-12. Kalashnikov AK-12 assault rifle features integral Picatinny rail at the top cover, and additional accessory rails at the top and both sides of the forend. Bottom section of the forend is available in two versions – with rail (to accept various ‘tactical’ accessories like lights and foregrips) or plain one (to accept standard 40mm grenade launchers like GP-25 or GP-30). Kalashnikov AK-12 assault rifle accepts all ‘legacy’ magazines in its respective caliber, such as 30-round AKM or AK-74 and 40-round RPK / 45-round RPK-74 magazines. Additionally, new, 4-stack, 60-round box magazine and 95-round drum are planned to be issued for AK-12 chambered in 5.45mm. Gun features bolt hold-open device which is controlled by a lever, located at the front of the trigger guard, above the enlarged magazine release lever. It must be noted that this bolt hold-open device works only with modificed magazines. AK-12 also features redesigned integral iron sights. Shrouded front sight is installed above the gas block. Adjustable rear sight has reversible (rotating) blade with aperture (diopter) on one side and U-shaped notch on another. To switch between options user has to raise rear sight and then rotate the blade through 180 degrees to either side.



balixd said:


> a humble suggestion to chief - sell all those G-3 to civies with valid license....you can make ton of money with that
> 
> btw i think it will come down to QZB, HK417 & MPT


Army Chief can gift me one.

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## Amaa'n

what if its an in house built???we have come up with Sniper, DSA have come up with handgun....why the heck not have a go at Battle rifle?

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## Zarvan

balixd said:


> what if its an in house built???we have come up with Sniper, DSA have come up with handgun....why the heck not have a go at Battle rifle?


The Sniper we made Sir do you really think after that we would try to design and develop our own assault rifle

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## DESERT FIGHTER

balixd said:


> a humble suggestion to chief - sell all those G-3 to civies with valid license....you can make ton of money with that
> 
> btw i think it will come down to QZB, HK417 & MPT



Let's make a bet .. If QBZ makes to the finals I'll give you a treat... If not ? 



balixd said:


> what if its an in house built???we have come up with Sniper, DSA have come up with handgun....why the heck not have a go at Battle rifle?




Definetly we should have continued with the PK series... But I guess dinasaurs at POF ... 

P.S: Can you provide some specs of the new bolt action? Is it in mass production or what ?

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## Zarvan

*Beretta ARX-160 assault rifle (Italy)*
_


Beretta ARX-160 assault rifle, early prototype (ca.2008)_






Beretta ARX-160 assault rifle, production version (2013) in 5.56x45 NATO






Beretta ARX-160 assault rifle, production version (2013) in 7.62x39 M43 Russian






Beretta ARX-160 assault rifle, production version with GLX-160 grenade launcher







Beretta ARX-100 self-loading rifle for civilian use, in 7.62x39 Russian

_


Beretta ARX-160 assault rifle partially disassembled_





*Caliber*: 5.56x45mm NATO, 7.62x39 M43
*Action:* Gas operated, rotating bolt
*Overall length*: 820-900 mm with 406 mm barrel and butt in ready position; 680 mm with butt folded
*Barrel length*: 305 mm / 12" or 406 mm / 16", quick changeable
*Weight*: ~ 3.1 kg with 406 mm barrel, w/o mag
*Rate of fire*: 700 rounds per minute
*Magazine capacity*: 30 rounds



The Beretta ARX-160 assault rifle is manufactured by famous Beretta company in Italy. Starting 2012, ARX-160 rifle is in use by Italian army. It is also offered for export, with initial customers being Special Forces of Algeria, Egypt and Kazakhstan (latter bought 7.62x39 version). A semi-automatic only version of the ARX-160 is offered for civilian sales as Beretta ARX-100 rifle, also in 5.56 / .223 Rem and 7.62x39.



The Beretta ARX-160 assault rifle is gas operated weapon that utilizes conventional piston-operated action, with short stroke gas piston located above the barrel. Barrel locking is achieved by more or less conventional rotary bolt. Unlike most other assault rifles, the Beretta ARX-160 assault rifle features quick-detachable barrels, which can be changed by operator in the field by depressing the barrel release button (located on right side of receiver, in front of magazine housing), pulling the barrel forward and out of the gun, and then inserting another (or same) barrel back. The receiver consists of two parts, upper (which holds barrel and bolt group) and lower (which hosts magazine housing, trigger unit and pistol grip). Both halves are made from impact-resistant polymer and connected using special quick-release locks, so there are no pins to push out (and lose). Another interesting and unusual feature of the Beretta ARX-160 assault rifle is that it has selectable left / right side ejection system with dual ejection ports (on either side of the gun) and user-switchable left / right position of cocking handle. To change the direction of empty case ejection, user has to push the cross-bolt button, located above and slightly to the rear of pistol grip, by the tip of the bullet (or other pointed item). This affects dual extractor-ejector claws, installed on the bolt, forcing them to eject spent cartridge to the desired side without any further disassembly of the gun or parts change. Charging handle, which is attached to the bolt carrier, also can be installed on either side of the gun. The Beretta ARX-160 assault rifle fires from closed bolt, in single shots and full automatic mode, and has ambidextrous safety / fire mode selector switch conveniently located above pistol grip. Upper receiver is fitted with full-length Picatinny type rail, made of aluminum, which can accommodate a wide variety of sighting equipment, including iron, telescopic, red-dot or electronic sights. Standard open sights are mounted on folding bases using rail interface. Additional lengths of Picatinny rail are installed on the forend on 3-, 6- and 9- o'clock positions. Lower (6-o'clock) position rail is strong enough to host GLX 160 40mm single-shot grenade launcher. Standard buttstock is also made of plastic, and folds to the right side. The buttstock is of telescoped, user-adjustable design.


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## Amaa'n

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Let's make a bet .. If QBZ makes to the finals I'll give you a treat... If not ?


 as long as you are coming to Islamabad / Rawalpindi....or lets make it half way through to Kharian



> Definetly we should have continued with the PK series... But I guess dinasaurs at POF ...
> 
> P.S: Can you provide some specs of the new bolt action? Is it in mass production or what ?


as per information provided by the person involved in designing the gun:
fully adjustable stock for length of pull, comb height and adjustment of the recoil pad in both axis.....AI AX stock....not in mass production yet....

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## Sipahi

I would love to see if we can get Russian AK 12 or 

AK - KV 13


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## Zarvan

*CZ 805 BREN A1 / A2 assault rifle (Czech republic)*
_


CZ 805 BREN A2 assault rifle with short barrel and red dot sight; iron sights are folded_



_


CZ 805 BREN A2 assault rifle with short barrel, butt folded, iron sights raised._



_


CZ 805 BREN A1 assault rifle with standard barrel _





*Caliber*: 5.56x45 mm NATO, 7.62x39 M43 interchangeable; also 6.8x43 Rem SPC proposed in near future
*Action:* Gas operated, rotating bolt
*Overall length*: 910 mm (butt extended)
*Barrel length*: 360 mm standard, other lengths available
*Weight*: 3.6 kg less magazine and accessories
*Rate of fire*: ~ 700 rounds per minute
*Magazine capacity*: 20, 30 or 100 rounds



The CZ 805 assault rifle was first introduced to the public in 2009, as a possible future replacement for aged Sa. Vz. 58 assault rifles still in use by Czech armed forces. According to the recent news, early in 2010 the CZ 805 was selected as a next standard military rifle for Czech armed forces, with production contract issued to the famous Czech arms factory CZ-UB in the city of Uhersky Brod. It is quite possible that CZ 805 rifles also will be offered for export, either in military (select-fire) or in civilian (semi-automatic only) versions.
The CZ 805 (which is apparently dubbed as "CZ 805 BREN A1" in Czech sources) is a modular weapon of modern appearance. In its layout it is somewhat similar to the Belgian FN SCARassault rifle (against which CZ 805 competed and won in Czech army trials), but similarity is not exact and there are significant design differences between these two weapon systems.

The CZ 805 assault rifle is of modular, multi-caliber design, with aluminum alloy upper receiver and polymer lower receiver / fire control unit. The magazine housing is a separate detachable unit, which can be replaced in the field in the course of caliber change. CZ 805 also features quick-change barrels, allowing to change calibers and barrel lengths according to the mission profile (in each caliber there there are short carbine barrel, standard barrel and long "marksman" or "squad automatic" barrel). The basic action uses fairy common piston-operated gas action with manual gas regulator, and a rotating bolt locking. For each proposed caliber, there is a separate bolt with appropriate dimensions.
Fire control unit includes ambidextrous safety / fire selector switch, which permits single shots, 2-round bursts and full automatic fire. Charging handle can be installed on either side of the gun, depending on user preferences.
Feed is from detachable box magazines, which are inserted into detachable magazine housing. In standard configuration, the CZ 805 will use proprietary 5.56x45 caliber 30-round magazines made of translucent polymer. Other magazine housings will allow use of STANAG or HK G36 5.56mm magazines, as well as various 7.62x39 and 6.8x43 magazines.
CZ 805 assault rifle is fitted with integral Picatinny rail on the top of receiver, with additional rails running on the sides and the bottom of the forend. Rifle will be issued with folding iron sights, and will also accept a wide variety of additional sighting equipment (red-dot or telescope day sights, night sights, lasers etc). Rifle is equipped with side-folding buttstock, which is adjustable for length of pull, and can be completely removed if maximum compactness is required. Additional equipment also includes new, specially designed 40mm underbarrel grenade launcher CZ G 805 and also a new knife-bayonet.

@Sulman Badshah Please share any news or comment on Guns which I have posted about


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## Zarvan

*ColtM4 and M4A1 carbine / assault rifle (USA)*




_


Colt M4 carbine, current issue model with removable carrying handle, left side_



_

 
Colt M4 carbine, current issue model with removable carrying handle, right side_



_


Colt M4 carbine, old version with fixed M16A2-style carrying handle and M203 grenade launcher_



_


Colt M4 carbine, current issue model with Trijicon ACOG telescope sight installed over the integral Picatinny rail and M203 grenade launche mounted onto the RIS forend._



_


Colt M4 carbine with Mk.18 CQBR upper receiver, fitted with Aimpoint red-dot sight and additional back-up iron sights (BUIS)_



_


THOR Global Defense Group TR-15 carbine, manufactured along the lines of US GI M4, but fitted with a number of accessories such as AAC silencer, Vltor rail forend and buttstock, and Trijicon ACOG 4X optical sight
image: THOR Global Defense Group_



_


image: THOR Global Defense Group_


Click here to see the the SOPMOD M4A1 kit (54 Kb JPEG, will open in new window)

*Caliber*: 5.56mm NATO
*Action:* Gas operated, rotating bolt
*Overall length*: 838 mm (stock extended); 757 mm (stock fully collapsed)
*Barrel length*: 370 mm
*Weight*: 2.52 kg without magazine; 3.0 kg with magazine loaded with 30 rounds
*Rate of fire*: 700 - 950 rounds per minute
*Maximum effective range*: 360 m

The Colt company developed various carbine versions of the basic AR-15 / M16 rifle since 1970s. These carbines were intended for all markets - military, law enforcement, civilian. US Military (and some other armies, most notably - Israeli Self-Defense Forces) had adopted the Colt CAR-15 Commando and XM-177 carbines during the 1970s and 1980s. But early in 1990s the old idea of replacing the pistols in the hands of the troops with some more effective, shoulder fired weapon, rise again in the heads of the US Military. In fact, this idea can be dated back to the US M1 Carbine of 1941, but good ideas never die. So, in the 1994, US Army adopted the Colt Model 720 selective-fire carbine (basically, a shortened M16A2 rifle), as the US M4 Carbine. This weapon was intended to replace in service some M9 pistols, as well as some aged M3A1 submachine guns and some M16A2 rifles. New weapon was much more handy and comfortable to carry, than the long M16A2 rifle, so the US Special Operations Command (SOCOM) put its eye on the M4 as a possible universal weapon for all Special Operations community. For this purpose M4 was latter modified with the M16A3-style flat-top receiver with integral Picatinny-type accessory rail instead of the M16A2/M4-type integral carrying handle. This modificatin retained the M4 index. The only difference between the M4A1 and M4 is that its trigger unit of M4A1 is modified to fire full-auto instead of the three shots bursts in M4. Specially for the SOCOM M4A1s US Naval Surface Warfare Center developed a SOPMOD M4 kit, that consisted of the M4A1 carbine equipped with Rail Interface System (RIS) instead of the standard handguards. The kit also includes a variety of the add-on goodies, such as various sights (ACOG 4X telescopic, ACOG Reflex red-dot, detachable back-up open sights), laser pointers (visible and infra-red), detachable sound suppressor (silencer), modified M203 40mm grenade launcher (with shortened barrel and improved sights). The kit also included a detachable front grip and tactical light.

At the present time, the M4 carbine is used as a front-line weapon by US Army, Marine Corps and SOCOM operators in Iraq and Afghanistan. Combat experience with thos weapon resulted in update program, which will, as of now (mid-2010) following steps. First, Army wanted to install heavier barrel to allow more sustained firepower, combined with full-automatic mode of fire instead of 3-round burst, and ambidextrous safety/selector switch. Second stage will see improved rail adapter and a new, improved bolt carrier, and a possible third stage will include change of operating system (most probably, from direct gas to the gas piston). 

At the present time, the Colt company still is the the prime M4 carbine manufacturer for US Armed forces, but many other companies build similar "milspec" weapons for other US and foreign customers, such as government and private security organizations, law enforcement etc. To name just few, M4-type carbines are manufactured by Bushmaster Firearms, Olympic Arms, THOR Global Defense Group and others

Technical description.
The M4 carbine differs from the M16A2 rifle only by having a shorter barrel and a telescoped, 4-position buttstock. The M4A1 is a similar modification of the M16A3 rifle, so for general technical description please refer to theM16 article on this site.


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## black-hawk_101

I think Sindh CTD have bought weapons from Germany. Also, I think they are going to buy more weapons from Russia or Germany for the Sindh Police in coming time. Hope the Balochistan Govt. will also listen it and will buy weapons too.


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## Zarvan

@StArk 13 Sir G comment here @Tipu7



black-hawk_101 said:


> I think Sindh CTD have bought weapons from Germany. Also, I think they are going to buy more weapons from Russia or Germany for the Sindh Police in coming time. Hope the Balochistan Govt. will also listen it and will buy weapons too.


What weapons ?


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## New Resolve

Need a fire arm that accepts both 5.56 and 7.62 barrels because realistically you need both in a platoon for best results.

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## black-hawk_101

Zarvan said:


> @StArk 13 Sir G comment here @Tipu7
> 
> 
> What weapons ?


Heard that in this forum. But in reality don't know.

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## Zarvan

*MSBS Radon assault rifle (Poland)*



MSBS Radon assault rifles, Radon-B (bullpup) top and Radon-K (standard) bottom
Photo: Leszek Erenfeicht, STRZAL gun magazine (Poland)








MSBS Radon assault rifles, Radon-B (bullpup) top and Radon-K (standard) bottom
Photo: Leszek Erenfeicht, STRZAL gun magazine (Poland)






MSBS Radon-B (bullpup) rifle, partially disassembled
Photo: Leszek Erenfeicht, STRZAL gun magazine (Poland)






MSBS Radon-K (standard) rifle, partially disassembled
Photo: Leszek Erenfeicht, STRZAL gun magazine (Poland)





*MSBS-K*

*MSBS-B*

*Caliber*

5.56x45 NATO

*Action*

Gas operated

*Length, mm*

900 / 670

670

*Barrel length, mm*

406

*Weight, kg*

3.65

3.55

*Rate of fire, rounds/minute*

700

*Magazine capacity, rounds*

30



MSBS Radon modular weapon system is an indigenous development of Polish Military Technical Academy (Wojskowa Akademia Techniczna) and Fabryka Broni „Lucznik” – Radom weapons factory. MSBS stands for “Modułowy Systema Broni Strzeleckiej” – modular small arms system. It is scheduled to enter initial production for Polish army trials late in 2014. As of now, MSBS system consist only of two weapons - MSBS-5.56B Radon-B bullpup assault rifle, intended for Special Forces, and MSBS-5.56K Radon-K standard configuration rifle intended for infantry and other units. Future versions of the MSBS also may include heavy barreled Designated Marksmen rifle and Squad Support Weapon (light machine gun).



The backbone of MSBS system is an inverted U-shaped receiver, made from aluminum alloy. This receiver, along with bolt group, return spring, barrel and gas system are common for both current versions of MSBS rifles.
MSBS is operated using short stroke gas piston, located above the barrel, and its gas system has manual gas regulator. Breech lock is achieved by a conventional rotary bolt with seven radial lugs that lock into the barrel extension. Ejection windows are made on both sides of the receiver, and weapon can be set up to eject to either side; this requires partial disassembly of the gun and installation of the ejection port cover on the side opposite the “active” ejection window. Non-reciprocating charging handles are located on both sides of the receiver.


Polymer stocks are made integral with magazine and trigger unit housings (pistol grips are separate Ar15/M16-compatible parts), and available in two versions – standard (with side-folding, telescoping shoulder stock) and bullpup (with fixed buttplate). Both versions feature ambidextrous safety / fire mode selectors located at the top of the pistol grip, and ambidextrous magazine release buttons located in front of the trigger guard. Bolt stop release buttons are located on the underside of the stock, behind the magazine housing. Both stock versions are interchangeable and attach to receiver using cross-pins. Polymer forends also interchangeable. MSBS rifles are fed from STANAG-compatible (M16-type) magazines. Sighting equipment is installed using Picatinny rail at the top of the receiver. Both MSBS-5.56B Radon-B bullpup and MSBS-5.56K Radon-K standard rifle can mount proprietary knife-bayonet (above the barrel) and specially designed 40mm grenade launcher (below the barrel).

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## That Guy

@Zarvan where is the official confirmation? Unless we see it, there is no reason to believe this claim.


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## Zarvan

That Guy said:


> @Zarvan where is the official confirmation? Unless we see it, there is no reason to believe this claim.


A letter has been sent by Army Chief to all the centres of Army in which this news has been given @Wolfhound Even posted the letter here on forum but deleted it on another member request.
@balixd also told about the letter and @Sulman Badshah has also told that MPT-76 have already arrived for evaluation


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## That Guy

Zarvan said:


> A letter has been sent by Army Chief to all the centres of Army in which this news has been given @Wolfhound Even posted the letter here on forum but deleted it on another member request.
> @balixd also told about the letter and @Sulman Badshah has also told that MPT-76 have already arrived for evaluation


So we're basing this on a piece of paper that we cannot verify as being authentic? Excuse me for being skeptical, considering just a year ago, the army said they had no immediate plans for a new rifle tender, replacement acquisitions.

Until I see official public confirmation from either the MoD or army, I'll continue to have my doubts.

Also, I should add that such an event wouldn't go unnoticed by the media, both foreign or domestic.


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## Zarvan

That Guy said:


> So we're basing this on a piece of paper that we cannot verify as being authentic? Excuse me for being skeptical, considering just a year ago, the army said they had no immediate plans for a new rifle tender, replacement acquisitions.
> 
> Until I see official public confirmation from either the MoD or army, I'll continue to have my doubts.


It is authentic Sir Army chief also told this in the speech he gave at Lahore and the letter is official. A Major General is head of that board which would evaluate these Guns


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## Amaa'n

That Guy said:


> So we're basing this on a piece of paper that we cannot verify as being authentic? Excuse me for being skeptical, considering just a year ago, the army said they had no immediate plans for a new rifle tender, replacement acquisitions.
> 
> Until I see official public confirmation from either the MoD or army, I'll continue to have my doubts.
> 
> Also, I should add that such an event wouldn't go unnoticed by the media, both foreign or domestic.


you have the right to opinion, but I had it confirmed too.....the letter is authentic

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## Jango

Let the fairy tale dreams begin!!!

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## Quwa

That Guy said:


> So we're basing this on a piece of paper that we cannot verify as being authentic? Excuse me for being skeptical, considering just a year ago, the army said they had no immediate plans for a new rifle tender, replacement acquisitions.
> 
> Until I see official public confirmation from either the MoD or army, I'll continue to have my doubts.
> 
> Also, I should add that such an event wouldn't go unnoticed by the media, both foreign or domestic.


To be fair we're at a stage now where we don't even know the actual value of Pakistan's submarine deal with China. It generally seems like the Pakistan military's been quiet on its acquisitions, even the major ones.

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## ghoul

atatwolf said:


> Review of the new MPT



The recoil seems too much to be honest. Or maybe its just the technique of the guy?

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## Zarvan

Jango said:


> Let the fairy tale dreams begin!!!


Sir it's not fairly tale Army has decided to replace G3


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## Jango

Zarvan said:


> Sir it's not fairly tale Army has decided to replace G3



Ok bro...maaf kar dena, sorry.

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## ali_raza

the best ones are AK12 or M4 dono me se ek lele


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## Yazp

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> 76 is pretty much a clone of 417... And uses the same 7.62 calib.


If it is in fact a clone of the 417, Why don't we just clone the 417 instead of cloning the clone of the 417?

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## Wolfhound

New Resolve said:


> Need a fire arm that accepts both 5.56 and 7.62 barrels because realistically you need both in a platoon for best results.


 This is exactly what must be done, the 7.62 should be used as the standard weapon and the 5.56 carbines should be used for special opps, CQB and should also be used to phase out all submachine guns. This is being done all around the world as 9mm caliber is not as effective as it used to be because of new protection systems(bulletproof vests,etc)




Zarvan said:


> *MSBS Radon assault rifle (Poland)*
> 
> 
> 
> MSBS Radon assault rifles, Radon-B (bullpup) top and Radon-K (standard) bottom
> Photo: Leszek Erenfeicht, STRZAL gun magazine (Poland)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MSBS Radon assault rifles, Radon-B (bullpup) top and Radon-K (standard) bottom
> Photo: Leszek Erenfeicht, STRZAL gun magazine (Poland)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MSBS Radon-B (bullpup) rifle, partially disassembled
> Photo: Leszek Erenfeicht, STRZAL gun magazine (Poland)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MSBS Radon-K (standard) rifle, partially disassembled
> Photo: Leszek Erenfeicht, STRZAL gun magazine (Poland)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *MSBS-K*
> 
> *MSBS-B*
> 
> *Caliber*
> 
> 5.56x45 NATO
> 
> *Action*
> 
> Gas operated
> 
> *Length, mm*
> 
> 900 / 670
> 
> 670
> 
> *Barrel length, mm*
> 
> 406
> 
> *Weight, kg*
> 
> 3.65
> 
> 3.55
> 
> *Rate of fire, rounds/minute*
> 
> 700
> 
> *Magazine capacity, rounds*
> 
> 30
> 
> 
> 
> MSBS Radon modular weapon system is an indigenous development of Polish Military Technical Academy (Wojskowa Akademia Techniczna) and Fabryka Broni „Lucznik” – Radom weapons factory. MSBS stands for “Modułowy Systema Broni Strzeleckiej” – modular small arms system. It is scheduled to enter initial production for Polish army trials late in 2014. As of now, MSBS system consist only of two weapons - MSBS-5.56B Radon-B bullpup assault rifle, intended for Special Forces, and MSBS-5.56K Radon-K standard configuration rifle intended for infantry and other units. Future versions of the MSBS also may include heavy barreled Designated Marksmen rifle and Squad Support Weapon (light machine gun).
> 
> 
> 
> The backbone of MSBS system is an inverted U-shaped receiver, made from aluminum alloy. This receiver, along with bolt group, return spring, barrel and gas system are common for both current versions of MSBS rifles.
> MSBS is operated using short stroke gas piston, located above the barrel, and its gas system has manual gas regulator. Breech lock is achieved by a conventional rotary bolt with seven radial lugs that lock into the barrel extension. Ejection windows are made on both sides of the receiver, and weapon can be set up to eject to either side; this requires partial disassembly of the gun and installation of the ejection port cover on the side opposite the “active” ejection window. Non-reciprocating charging handles are located on both sides of the receiver.
> 
> 
> Polymer stocks are made integral with magazine and trigger unit housings (pistol grips are separate Ar15/M16-compatible parts), and available in two versions – standard (with side-folding, telescoping shoulder stock) and bullpup (with fixed buttplate). Both versions feature ambidextrous safety / fire mode selectors located at the top of the pistol grip, and ambidextrous magazine release buttons located in front of the trigger guard. Bolt stop release buttons are located on the underside of the stock, behind the magazine housing. Both stock versions are interchangeable and attach to receiver using cross-pins. Polymer forends also interchangeable. MSBS rifles are fed from STANAG-compatible (M16-type) magazines. Sighting equipment is installed using Picatinny rail at the top of the receiver. Both MSBS-5.56B Radon-B bullpup and MSBS-5.56K Radon-K standard rifle can mount proprietary knife-bayonet (above the barrel) and specially designed 40mm grenade launcher (below the barrel).


 This is an effective weapon, but we dont have intentions of fully changing into 5.56 and it would be better if it had a 7.62 version as well. BTW love the design.


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## JPMM

If you want to replace many varants and wepons, then the HK416/417 its the best option:
In 2014 the HK came to Portugal to replace not the G3, but all the weapons including Pistols, HMGs, LMGs and GLs
NOVAS ARMAS E MIRAS ÓPTICAS APRESENTADAS EM PORTUGAL | Operacional

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## Zarvan

JPMM said:


> If you want to replace many varants and wepons, then the HK416/417 its the best option:
> In 2014 the HK came to Portugal to replace not the G3, but all the weapons including Pistols, HMGs, LMGs and GLs
> NOVAS ARMAS E MIRAS ÓPTICAS APRESENTADAS EM PORTUGAL | Operacional


Well if Germany agrees to sell us these and they also passes tests then we would go for them.


----------



## Foxtrot-Bravo

Hk-14 or M4 carbine should be a nice choice as they are being widely used by US Military too because of their easy handling and accuracy.

This surely will be a great revolution and impressive upgrade in Pakistan Army if they chose HK-416 as a standard assault rifle.


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## JPMM

They offer the MG4 LMGs in 5,56mm, MG5 LMGs in 7,62mm, to replace the MG3.
They want to sell weapons to all Army/Air Force/Navy/Police/GNR etc..
We liked very much the MG5


MG5


MG5

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## Zarvan

JPMM said:


> They offer the MG4 LMGs in 5,56mm, MG5 LMGs in 7,62mm, to replace the MG3.
> They want to sell weapons to all Army/Air Force/Navy/Police/GNR etc..
> We liked very much the MG5
> 
> 
> MG5
> 
> 
> MG5


I really hope that Pakistan selects HK-417 and also MG5 and HK M28 Marksman Rifle.

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## kaonalpha

That Guy said:


> So we're basing this on a piece of paper that we cannot verify as being authentic? Excuse me for being skeptical, considering just a year ago, the army said they had no immediate plans for a new rifle tender, replacement acquisitions.
> 
> Until I see official public confirmation from either the MoD or army, I'll continue to have my doubts.
> 
> Also, I should add that such an event wouldn't go unnoticed by the media, both foreign or domestic.


You wont see it because i had it removed because some kid took the picture of it from his dads office.Its real alright because you will not find it on the internet . It exists on a different platform called the OAS.

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## Wolfhound

Zarvan said:


> I really hope that Pakistan selects HK-417 and also MG5 and HK M28 Marksman Rifle.


We should go for all HK weapons if we are changing all old small arms(except pistols) but if we are only changing the standard assault rifle then the MPT-76 is a better choice.



kaonalpha said:


> You wont see it because i had it removed because some kid took the picture of it from his dads office.Its real alright because you will not find it on the internet . It exists on a different platform called the OAS.


Bhai jan, i am not a kid and i am your age, if you consider yourself a kid then so be it. The picture was sent to me because i asked for it from a source. And i only removed it because i just wanted zarwan to see it and that had been done, and i didnt remove it because you asked me to, Its not as top secret as your'e making it, it being on the OS is a clear sign of that. Kindly get your facts straight next time before bragging.

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## hkdas

H&k 416 is now replaced by Special Operations Forces Combat Assault Rifle (SCAR) in many NATO sf, consider FN SCAR if you have money and FN have allowed their product to pakistan.

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## kaonalpha

Wolfhound said:


> We should go for all HK weapons if we are changing all old small arms(except pistols) but if we are only changing the standard assault rifle then the MPT-76 is a better choice.
> 
> 
> Bhai jan, i am not a kid and i am your age, if you consider yourself a kid then so be it. The picture was sent to me because i asked for it from a source. And i only removed it because i just wanted zarwan to see it and that had been done, and i didnt remove it because you asked me to, Its not as top secret as your'e making it, it being on the OS is a clear sign of that. Kindly get your facts straight next time before bragging.


Sorry yar .Had to explain to a thick head. No offense

But still OS pe agar aguya heh to us ka ye matlab nahi ki pori dunya ko bataya jai. the bhartis have their lobbies all across the world and can cause problems in procurement

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## unleashed

Zarvan said:


> As it is now fully confirmed that Pakistan has decided to replace G3 with a new standard weapon. For this a board of Army officers led by a Major General will evaluate all major Guns used by leading militaries in the world and one of them will be chosen for Pakistan so it's time to discuss potential candidates and their features.
> By the way MPT-76 are first to come for evaluation.
> @WebMaster @Horus @Oscar @Irfan Baloch @balixd @Icarus @kaonalpha @syedali73 @Sulman Badshah @Wolfhound @nair @SpArK @GURU DUTT @Imran Khan @Arsalan @RescueRanger @Bratva @Slav Defence @ajpirzada @DESERT FIGHTER @


Why PA is going for Foreign Guns??
If that is going to be happened then what is POF meant for?? just to organize Expos?? 
Cant they work on an Assault riffle, since they are well aware of PA requirements and demands..

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## Yazp

Foxtrot-Bravo said:


> M1 carbine should be a nice choice as they are being widely used by US Military too because of their easy handling and accuracy.








This is an M1 Carbine 
I'm sure you mean M4 carbine.
This is the M4:






Foxtrot-Bravo said:


> Pakistan Army if they chose HK-416


The 416 Isn't made for terrain like Pakistan. The 417 uses the right bullet.

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## Sage

hkdas said:


> H&k 416 is now replaced by Special Operations Forces Combat Assault Rifle (SCAR) in many NATO sf, consider FN SCAR if you have money and FN have allowed their product to pakistan.


Pakistan has been using products from FN ...they have no problem with Pakistan to be using their weapons ...and is with the HK !


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## Foxtrot-Bravo

Yazp said:


> This is an M1 Carbine
> I'm sure you mean M4 carbine.
> This is the M4:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The 416 Isn't made for terrain like Pakistan. The 417 uses the right bullet.




Oops My mistake hahahaha . 416/417 difference of a bullet


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## hkdas

Sage said:


> Pakistan has been using products from FN ...they have no problem with Pakistan to be using their weapons ...and is with the HK !



pakistan didn't use any most modern product of FN or H&K. SCAR is a JV, for importing SCAR you need uncle sam's (USA) permission. because they are the original manufacturer. remember US once refuse to give sniper rifle to pakistan army. '
Utah gun company says 'no' to $10 million contract from Pakistan | Deseret News



Yazp said:


> The 417 uses the right bullet


that is a marksman rifle.


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## New World

why not have a joint-venture with turkey to made assault rifle in Pakistan, and that rifle may be better from MTR-76, and HK-417.. 

and I also heard that POF have joint-venture with turkish firm to make 9mm pistol???(can any one confirm this).
@kaonalpha @Zarvan etc


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## SecularNationalist

My personal choice is Ak-12

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## Zarvan

New World said:


> why not have a joint-venture with turkey to made assault rifle in Pakistan, and that rifle may be better from MTR-76, and HK-417..
> 
> and I also heard that POF have joint-venture with turkish firm to make 9mm pistol???(can any one confirm this).
> @kaonalpha @Zarvan etc


@kaonalpha can

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## Amaa'n

hkdas said:


> pakistan didn't use any most modern product of FN or H&K. SCAR is a JV, for importing SCAR you need uncle sam's (USA) permission. because they are the original manufacturer. remember US once refuse to give sniper rifle to pakistan army. '
> Utah gun company says 'no' to $10 million contract from Pakistan | Deseret News
> 
> 
> that is a marksman rifle.


@Zarvan, I thought we had you here to answer tiny queries like these???
let me do it this time----
mr.hkdas, do you consider FN P90 or FN F2000 a modern weapon by any standard??

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## Wolfhound

New World said:


> why not have a joint-venture with turkey to made assault rifle in Pakistan, and that rifle may be better from MTR-76, and HK-417..
> 
> and I also heard that POF have joint-venture with turkish firm to make 9mm pistol???(can any one confirm this).
> @kaonalpha @Zarvan etc


Yes they are. POF is making Sarsilmaz B6 and ST-9s. They are already being made standard in the army. I fired the weapon my self it is as good and reliable as a glock.

P.s they are also available to civilians

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## Zarvan

balixd said:


> @Zarvan, I thought we had you here to answer tiny queries like these???
> let me do it this time----
> mr.hkdas, do you consider FN P90 or FN F2000 a modern weapon by any standard??


Sorry my negligence



Wolfhound said:


> Yes they are. POF is making Sarsilmaz B6 and ST-9s. They are already being made standard in the army. I fired the weapon my self it is as good and reliable as a glock.


Pictures are needed


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## Wolfhound

Zarvan said:


> Sorry my negligence
> 
> 
> Pictures are needed


Sir they have been here for almost 2 years. How do you not know about it? Anyway this will help POF Launch new 9mm handguns in collaboration with Sarsilmaz Turkey


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## Yazp

The ST9 looks good, the B6 is so ugly, I'm not going to include it's picture in my post.


Wolfhound said:


> good and reliable as a glock.


Glocks are in no way "Good".
They're cheap and they work, thus it's popularity. But it's designed like a brick and feels absolutely like a toy gun.


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## Wolfhound

unleashed said:


> Why PA is going for Foreign Guns??
> If that is going to be happened then what is POF meant for?? just to organize Expos??
> Cant they work on an Assault riffle, since they are well aware of PA requirements and demands..


Dude, developing an assault rifle needs R&D and R&D needs alot of money. We have a very small budget and need to use it efficiently. If you are willing to lend the money we wont have any problem manufacturing rifles.


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## Pak_Track

Yazp said:


> The ST9 looks good, the B6 is so ugly, I'm not going to include it's picture in my post.
> 
> Glocks are in no way "Good".
> They're cheap and they work, thus it's popularity. But it's designed like a brick and feels absolutely like a toy gun.


B6 is ugly and glocks aren't good?
Dude.


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## Yazp

Pak_Track said:


> B6 is ugly and glocks aren't good?
> Dude.







Slightly better looking than the Glock, but still ugly.
The Glock as I said are only "Good" because of their cheapness and the fact it works most of the time.
Honestly, the Glock has to be the ugliest and the most over-rated gun on the planet.


----------



## kaonalpha

Zarvan said:


> @kaonalpha can


you mean salzmars not sure might have.


----------



## Wolfhound

Yazp said:


> The ST9 looks good, the B6 is so ugly, I'm not going to include it's picture in my post.
> 
> Glocks are in no way "Good".
> They're cheap and they work, thus it's popularity. But it's designed like a brick and feels absolutely like a toy gun.


Its still one of the most reliable weapons out there and still in the top 10.

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## Pak_Track

Yazp said:


> Slightly better looking than the Glock, but still ugly.
> The Glock as I said are only "Good" because of their cheapness and the fact it works most of the time.
> Honestly, the Glock has to be the ugliest and the most over-rated gun on the planet.


I don't really chose guns by how they look. Glock is simple and works. No bullshit with a thumb safety.
B6 is a polymer clone of a CZ75. And who told you glocks are cheap? It's much more expensive than a B6.
Plus Glock is striker fired, so much better for CQC.

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## Wolfhound

Yazp said:


> Slightly better looking than the Glock, but still ugly.
> The Glock as I said are only "Good" because of their cheapness and the fact it works most of the time.
> Honestly, the Glock has to be the ugliest and the most over-rated gun on the planet.


Glock gen 4 had some major changes. Including grips, We should have went for TP-9SA or ST-9 instead if we just believed in looks both the ST-9 and B-6 have almost the same specs and precision.


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## hkdas

balixd said:


> @Zarvan, I thought we had you here to answer tiny queries like these???
> let me do it this time----
> mr.hkdas, do you consider FN P90 or FN F2000 a modern weapon by any standard??



FN SCAR is manufactured in US.


----------



## Yazp

Pak_Track said:


> B6 is a polymer clone of a CZ75. And who told you glocks are cheap? It's much more expensive than a B6.


By cheap I mean it's proper price, not the Pakistani inflated price.
A Glock costs what? Like 300-400 USD?
Over here It'll be hard to find one under 350,000 Rupees.


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## Zarvan

hkdas said:


> FN SCAR is manufactured in US.


It is a joint venture both Belgium and USA produce it. On paper it's the best option let see what happens during tests


----------



## Pak_Track

Wolfhound said:


> Glock gen 4 had some major changes. Including grips, We should have went for TP-9SA or ST-9 instead if we just believed in looks both the ST-9 and B-6 have almost the same specs and precision.


Gen 4 comes with three sets of grips 
Mana that it's initial batches had problems due to the new recoil spring assembly, but those were fixed too.
We should also consider Sig P226 DAK. Thing is built like a tank.



Yazp said:


> By cheap I mean it's proper price, not the Pakistani inflated price.
> A Glock costs what? Like 300-400 USD?
> Over here It'll be hard to find one under 350,000 Rupees.


In USA, SAR B6 goes for under $300,
Gen 4 Glock 17 is around $550-650 new.

Pakistan should adopt XS big dots on all our Pistols.

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## Wolfhound

Pak_Track said:


> Gen 4 comes with three sets of grips
> Mana that it's initial batches had problems due to the new recoil spring assembly, but those were fixed too.
> We should also consider Sig P226 DAK. Thing is built like a tank.


We can't now. The army has already chosen the B-6 as its new side arm and even that was over 2 years ago


----------



## Pak_Track

Wolfhound said:


> We can't now. The army has already chosen the B-6 as its new side arm and even that was over 2 years ago


Ah well. 
Is it just me or did we turn a rifle thread into a pistol thread?

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## hkdas

Zarvan said:


> It is a joint venture both Belgium and USA produce it. On paper it's the best option let see what happens during tests



test conducted by US army shows, that weapons is pretty impressive. but SCAR is too expensive rifle for infantry unit.


----------



## gangsta_rap

I'm surprised because it seemed like they wanted to upgrade the G3 and continue with it for at least another decade.


----------



## Talwar e Pakistan

Zarvan said:


> As it is now fully confirmed that Pakistan has decided to replace G3 with a new standard weapon. For this a board of Army officers led by a Major General will evaluate all major Guns used by leading militaries in the world and one of them will be chosen for Pakistan so it's time to discuss potential candidates and their features.
> By the way MPT-76 are first to come for evaluation.
> @WebMaster @Horus @Oscar @Irfan Baloch @balixd @Icarus @kaonalpha @syedali73 @Sulman Badshah @Wolfhound @nair @SpArK @GURU DUTT @Imran Khan @Arsalan @RescueRanger @Bratva @Slav Defence @ajpirzada @DESERT FIGHTER @



We need an indigenous made gun; we cant be dependant. A ToT from an allied country would be nice; like how Israel gave ToT of Tavor to India.



hkdas said:


> test conducted by US army shows, that weapons is pretty impressive. but SCAR is too expensive rifle for infantry unit.



Some of our police already has them.


----------



## Zarvan

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> We need an indigenous made gun; we cant be dependant. A ToT from an allied country would be nice; like how Israel gave ToT of Tavor to India.
> 
> 
> 
> Some of our police already has them.


We will get new Gun with TOT


----------



## JPMM

GIANTsasquatch said:


> I'm surprised because it seemed like they wanted to upgrade the G3 and continue with it for at least another decade.


The point is that you need some time (decade) to chose, produce and completly replace the G3 with domestic production. In that decede your army will have to survive with the upgraded G3


----------



## rockstar08

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> I'd go for the Turkish (if it passes tests).. Reason ... It would be more affordable than getting from our old HK buddies... Besides Turkiye is out trusted brotherly nation... Good to see the increasing defence cooperation with a em..
> 
> A lot of great things coming out of it!



brother you are thinking as a Professional 
i say choose this , as this rifle looks more cool 

bas yaar @DESERT FIGHTER mai jab bhi punjab Aya , ap se milne ao ga 
ek do selfie tu le hi len gay  full commando style

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## hkdas

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> Some of our police already has them.


which police?


----------



## That Guy

Zarvan said:


> It is authentic Sir Army chief also told this in the speech he gave at Lahore and the letter is official. A Major General is head of that board which would evaluate these Guns


Post a transcript of speech, please.



balixd said:


> you have the right to opinion, but I had it confirmed too.....the letter is authentic


How did you confirm it, out of curiosity?



Mark Sien said:


> To be fair we're at a stage now where we don't even know the actual value of Pakistan's submarine deal with China. It generally seems like the Pakistan military's been quiet on its acquisitions, even the major ones.


Yes, but generally, there are signs and hints that show.



kaonalpha said:


> You wont see it because i had it removed because some kid took the picture of it from his dads office.Its real alright because you will not find it on the internet . It exists on a different platform called the OAS.


Okay, but I'm still skeptical. A single unconfirmed unauthenticated picture, I have my doubts.



hkdas said:


> pakistan didn't use any most modern product of FN or H&K. SCAR is a JV, for importing SCAR you need uncle sam's (USA) permission. because they are the original manufacturer. remember US once refuse to give sniper rifle to pakistan army. '
> Utah gun company says 'no' to $10 million contract from Pakistan | Deseret News.


It wasn't the US gov that refused, this was a tender, and the gun manufacturer was a private company. In fact, it was actually Pakistan that rejected them. They simply tried to play it off, and try to score points, but were caught lying when Pakistan showed evidence that they simply lost to other competitors.

Pakistan refutes Utah gun maker’s claim on rifles contract - Pakistan - DAWN.COM


----------



## Quwa

That Guy said:


> Post a transcript of speech, please.
> 
> 
> How did you confirm it, out of curiosity?
> 
> 
> Yes, but generally, there are signs and hints that show.
> 
> 
> Okay, but I'm still skeptical. A single unconfirmed unauthenticated picture, I have my doubts.
> 
> 
> It wasn't the US gov that refused, this was a tender, and the gun manufacturer was a private company. In fact, it was actually Pakistan that rejected them. They simply tried to play it off, and try to score points, but were caught lying when Pakistan showed evidence that they simply lost to other competitors.
> 
> Pakistan refutes Utah gun maker’s claim on rifles contract - Pakistan - DAWN.COM


I think a shift in assault rifles will have to happen eventually, but given the scale and costs involved, it'll probably be a very slow and gradual process, possibly generational. As modern warfare becomes more complex, the need to educate soldiers on technology, concepts and even culture (e.g. focus on fitness) will grow. The Army would be much better off phasing the older assault rifles with the soldiers themselves, i.e. new troops use new weapons, but the old weapons go with the retiring personnel.

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## Zarvan

Mark Sien said:


> I think a shift in assault rifles will have to happen eventually, but given the scale and costs involved, it'll probably be a very slow and gradual process, possibly generational. As modern warfare becomes more complex, the need to educate soldiers on technology, concepts and even culture (e.g. focus on fitness) will grow. The Army would be much better off phasing the older assault rifles with the soldiers themselves, i.e. new troops use new weapons, but the old weapons go with the retiring personnel.


The process has begun and it will take 5 to 8 years. I mean whole Army will be equipped with new Gun in next 5 to 8 years.

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## razgriz19

Zarvan said:


> @StArk 13 Sir G comment here @Tipu7
> 
> 
> What weapons ?

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## BordoEnes

The MPT-76's gas piston system is identical to that of the HK-417, so performance wise there shouldnt be much of a difference. We would probably even allow License production of the rifle. I might say this because i am Turkish but the MPT-76 seems like the logical choice considering its extremely cheap yet has great performance. 

The Turkish MPT-76 is essentialy a modified HK-417 clone. Its uses the ergonomics and design based on the AR-10/15 and has the same copied gas piston system of the HK-417 with the iron frontal sight of the SCAR.


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## Zarvan

BordoEnes said:


> The MPT-76's gas piston system is identical to that of the HK-417, so performance wise there shouldnt be much of a difference. We would probably even allow License production of the rifle. I might say this because i am Turkish but the MPT-76 seems like the logical choice considering its extremely cheap yet has great performance.
> 
> The Turkish MPT-76 is essentialy a modified HK-417 clone. Its uses the ergonomics and design based on the AR-10/15 and has the same copied gas piston system of the HK-417 with the iron frontal sight of the SCAR.


Sir our security is involved here so no compromise. All major Guns from all over the world will be tested and the one which performs best will be selected.


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## BordoEnes

Zarvan said:


> Sir our security is involved here so no compromise. All major Guns from all over the world will be tested and the one which performs best will be selected.



I have seen alot of opinions favoring the HK-417 which is an extremely good reliable weapon and replacement for the G-3. However i am just suggesting that MPT-76 is identical since its essentially a modified HK-417 clone, so there is a logical alternative  .

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## Zarvan

BordoEnes said:


> I have seen alot of opinions favoring the HK-417 which is an extremely good reliable weapon and replacement for the G-3. However i am just suggesting that MPT-76 is identical since its essentially a modified HK-417 clone, so there is a logical alternative  .


Yes we would have no issue going for MPT-76 if it passes tests. Turkey has enough cold weather to test MPT-76, real test in Pakistan will be in our Deserts.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Zarvan said:


> Yes we would have no issue going for MPT-76 if it passes tests. Turkey has enough cold weather to test MPT-76, real test in Pakistan will be in our Deserts.


Siachin is frozen hell... It's above anything the Turks have to endure... There even G-3 was prone to jamming... Apart from desert .. We also have swamps,marshes,etx.. 

So let's see what's the outcome.

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## Saifullah

i am really happy with the G3 and if we really want new Gun then we should develop it. I don't get what is the benefits these new platforms are giving us.


----------



## WaLeEdK2

Instead of trying to look for another country's guns, we should try to develop our own that suits our terrain and environment. It would take time but in the end it would be worth it.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

hkdas said:


> pakistan didn't use any most modern product of FN or H&K. SCAR is a JV, for importing SCAR you need uncle sam's (USA) permission. because they are the original manufacturer. remember US once refuse to give sniper rifle to pakistan army. '
> Utah gun company says 'no' to $10 million contract from Pakistan | Deseret News
> 
> 
> that is a marksman rifle.



Cup cake .. FN2000,P90,FN Mini,FN handguns are used by Pak SF's... And even SCAR which is used by ATF Islamabad... Fuk even FB MAG's.


P.S: that shit manufacturing private company was never even selected .. Hence more drama for publicity (link provided by another member).

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## Bratva

Zarvan said:


> As it is now fully confirmed that Pakistan has decided to replace G3 with a new standard weapon. For this a board of Army officers led by a Major General will evaluate all major Guns used by leading militaries in the world and one of them will be chosen for Pakistan so it's time to discuss potential candidates and their features.
> By the way MPT-76 are first to come for evaluation.
> @WebMaster @Horus @Oscar @Irfan Baloch @balixd @Icarus @kaonalpha @syedali73 @Sulman Badshah @Wolfhound @nair @SpArK @GURU DUTT @Imran Khan @Arsalan @RescueRanger @Bratva @Slav Defence @ajpirzada @DESERT FIGHTER @



@XYON what's the fuss my man ?


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## haviZsultan

I am all agreement on the fact that Pakistan needs a new standard assualt rifle. Wajahat Syed Ali Khan in his documentary we are soldiers pointed out the limitations of the G3A3, including jamming problem, limited range among other issues.

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## Super Falcon

Awsome PAKISTAN ARMY made my day since last 4 years im taking this issue now they are bringing somr sense

Thank to brave sensefull thinker planber GENERAL RAHEEL SHARIF 

WE SALUTE YOU AND YOUR WORK

HK 417 and SCAR or G 36 are best

What about machine gun and MP 5 are they going to replace them too

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## New World

Wolfhound said:


> Dude, developing an assault rifle needs R&D and R&D needs alot of money. We have a very small budget and need to use it efficiently. If you are willing to lend the money we wont have any problem manufacturing rifles.


sir, equation will be same if you assault rifle from foreign vendor say hk-417 rifle which is expensive and you will buy these rifles in hundreds of thousands in quantity,

but on other hand what has come out from R&D will be nearly 5x less expensive than these hk-417.. but R&D takes time.


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## Bratva

hkdas said:


> pakistan didn't use any most modern product of FN or H&K. SCAR is a JV, for importing SCAR you need uncle sam's (USA) permission. because they are the original manufacturer. remember US once refuse to give sniper rifle to pakistan army. '
> Utah gun company says 'no' to $10 million contract from Pakistan | Deseret News
> 
> 
> that is a marksman rifle.



AF SF








Navy SF






Somebody already posted Local Police SF using HK's

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## Max Pain

Zarvan said:


> *ColtM4 and M4A1 carbine / assault rifle (USA)*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _
> 
> 
> Colt M4 carbine, current issue model with removable carrying handle, left side_
> 
> 
> 
> _
> 
> 
> Colt M4 carbine, current issue model with removable carrying handle, right side_
> 
> 
> 
> _
> 
> 
> Colt M4 carbine, old version with fixed M16A2-style carrying handle and M203 grenade launcher_
> 
> 
> 
> _
> 
> 
> Colt M4 carbine, current issue model with Trijicon ACOG telescope sight installed over the integral Picatinny rail and M203 grenade launche mounted onto the RIS forend._
> 
> 
> 
> _
> 
> 
> Colt M4 carbine with Mk.18 CQBR upper receiver, fitted with Aimpoint red-dot sight and additional back-up iron sights (BUIS)_
> 
> 
> 
> _
> 
> 
> THOR Global Defense Group TR-15 carbine, manufactured along the lines of US GI M4, but fitted with a number of accessories such as AAC silencer, Vltor rail forend and buttstock, and Trijicon ACOG 4X optical sight
> image: THOR Global Defense Group_
> 
> 
> 
> _
> 
> 
> image: THOR Global Defense Group_
> 
> 
> Click here to see the the SOPMOD M4A1 kit (54 Kb JPEG, will open in new window)
> 
> *Caliber*: 5.56mm NATO
> *Action:* Gas operated, rotating bolt
> *Overall length*: 838 mm (stock extended); 757 mm (stock fully collapsed)
> *Barrel length*: 370 mm
> *Weight*: 2.52 kg without magazine; 3.0 kg with magazine loaded with 30 rounds
> *Rate of fire*: 700 - 950 rounds per minute
> *Maximum effective range*: 360 m
> 
> The Colt company developed various carbine versions of the basic AR-15 / M16 rifle since 1970s. These carbines were intended for all markets - military, law enforcement, civilian. US Military (and some other armies, most notably - Israeli Self-Defense Forces) had adopted the Colt CAR-15 Commando and XM-177 carbines during the 1970s and 1980s. But early in 1990s the old idea of replacing the pistols in the hands of the troops with some more effective, shoulder fired weapon, rise again in the heads of the US Military. In fact, this idea can be dated back to the US M1 Carbine of 1941, but good ideas never die. So, in the 1994, US Army adopted the Colt Model 720 selective-fire carbine (basically, a shortened M16A2 rifle), as the US M4 Carbine. This weapon was intended to replace in service some M9 pistols, as well as some aged M3A1 submachine guns and some M16A2 rifles. New weapon was much more handy and comfortable to carry, than the long M16A2 rifle, so the US Special Operations Command (SOCOM) put its eye on the M4 as a possible universal weapon for all Special Operations community. For this purpose M4 was latter modified with the M16A3-style flat-top receiver with integral Picatinny-type accessory rail instead of the M16A2/M4-type integral carrying handle. This modificatin retained the M4 index. The only difference between the M4A1 and M4 is that its trigger unit of M4A1 is modified to fire full-auto instead of the three shots bursts in M4. Specially for the SOCOM M4A1s US Naval Surface Warfare Center developed a SOPMOD M4 kit, that consisted of the M4A1 carbine equipped with Rail Interface System (RIS) instead of the standard handguards. The kit also includes a variety of the add-on goodies, such as various sights (ACOG 4X telescopic, ACOG Reflex red-dot, detachable back-up open sights), laser pointers (visible and infra-red), detachable sound suppressor (silencer), modified M203 40mm grenade launcher (with shortened barrel and improved sights). The kit also included a detachable front grip and tactical light.
> 
> At the present time, the M4 carbine is used as a front-line weapon by US Army, Marine Corps and SOCOM operators in Iraq and Afghanistan. Combat experience with thos weapon resulted in update program, which will, as of now (mid-2010) following steps. First, Army wanted to install heavier barrel to allow more sustained firepower, combined with full-automatic mode of fire instead of 3-round burst, and ambidextrous safety/selector switch. Second stage will see improved rail adapter and a new, improved bolt carrier, and a possible third stage will include change of operating system (most probably, from direct gas to the gas piston).
> 
> At the present time, the Colt company still is the the prime M4 carbine manufacturer for US Armed forces, but many other companies build similar "milspec" weapons for other US and foreign customers, such as government and private security organizations, law enforcement etc. To name just few, M4-type carbines are manufactured by Bushmaster Firearms, Olympic Arms, THOR Global Defense Group and others
> 
> Technical description.
> The M4 carbine differs from the M16A2 rifle only by having a shorter barrel and a telescoped, 4-position buttstock. The M4A1 is a similar modification of the M16A3 rifle, so for general technical description please refer to theM16 article on this site.




Already used by SSG and special forces.
no need to make it our default Assault Rifle.

HK 417 is a perfect choice and Id love it if our soldiers start using it.

gonna be a great leap from G3 that also has served us well for decades.


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## haviZsultan

Super Falcon said:


> Awsome PAKISTAN ARMY made my day since last 4 years im taking this issue now they are bringing somr sense
> 
> Thank to brave sensefull thinker planber GENERAL RAHEEL SHARIF
> 
> WE SALUTE YOU AND YOUR WORK
> 
> HK 417 and SCAR or G 36 are best
> 
> What about machine gun and MP 5 are they going to replace them too


MP5 is cheap and effective. It is a good option. I don't think we need to change our smg. We can't afford the P90 and other options are the MP4A1 and others. MP5 is better than this.


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## Super Falcon

Zarvan said:


> As it is now fully confirmed that Pakistan has decided to replace G3 with a new standard weapon. For this a board of Army officers led by a Major General will evaluate all major Guns used by leading militaries in the world and one of them will be chosen for Pakistan so it's time to discuss potential candidates and their features.
> By the way MPT-76 are first to come for evaluation.
> @WebMaster @Horus @Oscar @Irfan Baloch @balixd @Icarus @kaonalpha @syedali73 @Sulman Badshah @Wolfhound @nair @SpArK @GURU DUTT @Imran Khan @Arsalan @RescueRanger @Bratva @Slav Defence @ajpirzada @DESERT FIGHTER @


Dear you did not tagged me i was the one who keep saying we need to replace every one here said we are happy with G 3 finally what i said happebed as i did that we need russia to be our friend every one opposed it in 2009 u can dig my thread on russia toi. 

But no oblidgement no thanx nothing seems im alone fighting a war of words and sense 

It hurts when u talk on issue and other people take the credit thanx but not tagging super falcon have. Good day

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## Zarvan

haviZsultan said:


> MP5 is cheap and effective. It is a good option. I don't think we need to change our smg. We can't afford the P90 and other options are the MP4A1 and others. MP5 is better than this.


MP5 is old and now in the process of being fazed out. P90 is already being used by SSW.



Super Falcon said:


> Dear you did not tagged me i was the one who keep saying we need to replace every one here said we are happy with G 3 finally what i said happebed as i did that we need russia to be our friend every one opposed it in 2009 u can dig my thread on russia toi.
> 
> But no oblidgement no thanx nothing seems im alone fighting a war of words and sense
> 
> It hurts when u talk on issue and other people take the credit thanx but not tagging super falcon have. Good day


Thanks for raising the issue man. It looks like Army carefully monitors this forum and considers the suggestions we give here.



Bratva said:


> AF SF
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Navy SF
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Somebody already posted Local Police SF using HK's


Those are not HK those are Italian Gun.

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## Super Falcon

Zarvan said:


> *Beretta ARX-160 assault rifle (Italy)*
> _
> 
> 
> Beretta ARX-160 assault rifle, early prototype (ca.2008)_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Beretta ARX-160 assault rifle, production version (2013) in 5.56x45 NATO
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Beretta ARX-160 assault rifle, production version (2013) in 7.62x39 M43 Russian
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Beretta ARX-160 assault rifle, production version with GLX-160 grenade launcher
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Beretta ARX-100 self-loading rifle for civilian use, in 7.62x39 Russian
> 
> _
> 
> 
> Beretta ARX-160 assault rifle partially disassembled_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Caliber*: 5.56x45mm NATO, 7.62x39 M43
> *Action:* Gas operated, rotating bolt
> *Overall length*: 820-900 mm with 406 mm barrel and butt in ready position; 680 mm with butt folded
> *Barrel length*: 305 mm / 12" or 406 mm / 16", quick changeable
> *Weight*: ~ 3.1 kg with 406 mm barrel, w/o mag
> *Rate of fire*: 700 rounds per minute
> *Magazine capacity*: 30 rounds
> 
> 
> 
> The Beretta ARX-160 assault rifle is manufactured by famous Beretta company in Italy. Starting 2012, ARX-160 rifle is in use by Italian army. It is also offered for export, with initial customers being Special Forces of Algeria, Egypt and Kazakhstan (latter bought 7.62x39 version). A semi-automatic only version of the ARX-160 is offered for civilian sales as Beretta ARX-100 rifle, also in 5.56 / .223 Rem and 7.62x39.
> 
> 
> 
> The Beretta ARX-160 assault rifle is gas operated weapon that utilizes conventional piston-operated action, with short stroke gas piston located above the barrel. Barrel locking is achieved by more or less conventional rotary bolt. Unlike most other assault rifles, the Beretta ARX-160 assault rifle features quick-detachable barrels, which can be changed by operator in the field by depressing the barrel release button (located on right side of receiver, in front of magazine housing), pulling the barrel forward and out of the gun, and then inserting another (or same) barrel back. The receiver consists of two parts, upper (which holds barrel and bolt group) and lower (which hosts magazine housing, trigger unit and pistol grip). Both halves are made from impact-resistant polymer and connected using special quick-release locks, so there are no pins to push out (and lose). Another interesting and unusual feature of the Beretta ARX-160 assault rifle is that it has selectable left / right side ejection system with dual ejection ports (on either side of the gun) and user-switchable left / right position of cocking handle. To change the direction of empty case ejection, user has to push the cross-bolt button, located above and slightly to the rear of pistol grip, by the tip of the bullet (or other pointed item). This affects dual extractor-ejector claws, installed on the bolt, forcing them to eject spent cartridge to the desired side without any further disassembly of the gun or parts change. Charging handle, which is attached to the bolt carrier, also can be installed on either side of the gun. The Beretta ARX-160 assault rifle fires from closed bolt, in single shots and full automatic mode, and has ambidextrous safety / fire mode selector switch conveniently located above pistol grip. Upper receiver is fitted with full-length Picatinny type rail, made of aluminum, which can accommodate a wide variety of sighting equipment, including iron, telescopic, red-dot or electronic sights. Standard open sights are mounted on folding bases using rail interface. Additional lengths of Picatinny rail are installed on the forend on 3-, 6- and 9- o'clock positions. Lower (6-o'clock) position rail is strong enough to host GLX 160 40mm single-shot grenade launcher. Standard buttstock is also made of plastic, and folds to the right side. The buttstock is of telescoped, user-adjustable design.


Guns looks ugly

Buddies dong forget FAMAS ASSAULT RIFLE FRANCE

AND THERE IS ITALIAN AR FORGET ITS NAME


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## Zarvan

Super Falcon said:


> Guns looks ugly
> 
> Buddies dong forget FAMAS ASSAULT RIFLE FRANCE
> 
> AND THERE IS ITALIAN AR FORGET ITS NAME


France itself is looking to replace FAMAS

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## Max Pain

hkdas said:


> pakistan didn't use any most modern product of FN or H&K. SCAR is a JV, for importing SCAR you need uncle sam's (USA) permission. because they are the original manufacturer. remember US once refuse to give sniper rifle to pakistan army. '
> Utah gun company says 'no' to $10 million contract from Pakistan | Deseret News
> 
> 
> that is a marksman rifle.


417 is not a DMR,
it has a DMR version though but so did the G3,
417 is perfect for army here.

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## Zarvan

*Thales EF88 / F90 assault rifle (Australia)*



Thales EF88 / F90 assault rifle with 40cm barrel






Thales EF88 / F90 assault rifle with 50cm barrel and underbarrel grenade launcher









*F90 carbine*

*F90*

*Caliber*

5.56x45 NATO

5.56x45 NATO

*Length*

700 mm

802 mm

*Barrel length*

407 mm

508 mm

*Weight*

3.25 kg

3.39 kg

*Rate of fire*

850 RPM

850 RPM

*Magazine*

30 rounds

30 rounds



F90 assault rifle, also known as EF88 (enhanced F88) is an evolution of the F88 assault rifle, which was adopted by Australian and New Zealand armed forces during late 1980s. The original F88 rifle is a licensed copy of the AustrianSteyr AUG rifle, and it was produced in Australia at Australian Defense Industries factory in Lithgow. Today this same factory is operated by the Thales Australia, which developed EF88 / F90 rifle as a next weapon for Australian army, as well as for export.
While internally and externally the F90 is still close to Steyr AUG, it has many distinctive upgrades and changes, developed by Thales to fulfill current and near-future requirements of Australian armed forces. The Thales F90 rifles were first displayed to the public in mid-2012, and initial production is scheduled for 2013.
The resulting weapon is said to be much more reliable and comfortable than original F88 / Steyr AUG rifle. It is also noticeably lighter: standard F90 with 50 cm / 20” barrel is about 0.5 kg / 1.1 lbs lighter than standard F88 rifle; with new 40mm underbarrel grenade launcher installed, resulting weapon is more than 1.6 kg / 3.5 lbs lighter than F88 rifle equipped with M203PI grenade launcher.





F90 / EF88 assault rifle is gas operated, selectively fired weapon of bullpup layout. It uses polymer housing with improved shape of buttstock (including the new buttpad and added comb for better cheek-weld). Gas operated, short-stroke, rotary bolt action is similar to that of original Steyr AUG, but the gas block is modified. Aluminum alloy receiver is also modified to improve reliability and reduce weight. Ejection ports and ejection covers also modified to ensure reliable extraction under all conditions.
Unlike all previous versions of the Steyr AUG, the F90 has non-removable barrels, cold-hammer forged and externally fluted. Standard F90 rifles are offered with 50 cm / 20” barrels; other versions include carbines with 40 cm / 16” barrel and CQB variants with 36 cm / 14.1” barrel. Other clearly visible changes include extended Mil-Std (Picatinny) rail at the top; bottom rail has replaced original folding forward grip of the Steyr AUG / F88. Third accessory rail is mounted on the right side of the weapon. Trigger guard is redesigned to accept new, specially designed 40mm Underbarrel Grenade Launcher. This lightweight add-on weapon can be quickly attached directly to the bottom rail of the host rifle, and then easily removed when not required. Less visible changes include addition of the bolt hold-open device to facilitate faster reloads. F90 will feed from the same proprietary translucent magazines, made from polymer as the original Steyr AUG / F88 rifles, although optional STANAG-compatible version is said to be available in the near future. Basic sighting is provided by Trijicon ACOG optical sights with 1.5X or 3.5X magnification, although sights can be easily changed, thanks to MilStd mounts.


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## Super Falcon

Zarvan said:


> MP5 is old and now in the process of being fazed out. P90 is already being used by SSW.
> 
> 
> Thanks for raising the issue man. It looks like Army carefully monitors this forum and considers the suggestions we give here.
> 
> 
> Those are not HK those are Italian Gun.


Thanks zarvan atleast you agree with my pists appritiate your work here

Hope they replace MP 5 and old machine gun which army uses hope army dont stop keep upgrading our army should consider seriously one way or other we need next gen rifles for bravest Soldier in worl

Pakistan Must update bracest soldiers of modern soldiers with state


Pak_Track said:


> Gen 4 comes with three sets of grips
> Mana that it's initial batches had problems due to the new recoil spring assembly, but those were fixed too.
> We should also consider Sig P226 DAK. Thing is built like a tank.
> 
> 
> In USA, SAR B6 goes for under $300,
> Gen 4 Glock 17 is around $550-650 new.
> 
> Pakistan should adopt XS big dots on all our Pistols.


Agreed awsome friend salute to ur sense
today im happiest person ARMY get best weapon in hands


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## Max Pain

hkdas said:


> which police?


a special unit of Sindh Police,
they even had Brettta ARX 160


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## Super Falcon

JPMM said:


> The point is that you need some time (decade) to chose, produce and completly replace the G3 with domestic production. In that decede your army will have to survive with the upgraded G3


No it is not a aircraft carrier even carriers can be replaced in years
3 to 5 years enough once TOT signed we have a world best labour power we can managd 

Currently we have stop gap AK 47 used by army so G 3A3 is not one we rely on we can get through these 4 years time sith what we have
important thing in this time we start the prcess to replace these old guns

Pakistan must Upgrade its infantry soldiers gear specialy rifle world greatest bravest soldier must have state of the art weapons etc. Our soldiers sacrifice their life everyday so we sleep in peace time to give thdm gift by nation for their sacrifices


Super falcon

So war is between HK 417 vs SCAR for me which one to end up in habds of modern bravest soldiers company

Who ever win it in it self the gun maker can be more than happy to sell it to PA due to professionalism which our army has 

Second to none

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## Wolfhound

haviZsultan said:


> MP5 is cheap and effective. It is a good option. I don't think we need to change our smg. We can't afford the P90 and other options are the MP4A1 and others. MP5 is better than this.


Sir we dont need another smg. We need to replace the mp5 with any 5.56 carbine to increase legality and range. This is being done by leading countries in their future solider programs. There is a reason that SSG now prefers m4 carbines over the MP-5's it had.



New World said:


> sir, equation will be same if you assault rifle from foreign vendor say hk-417 rifle which is expensive and you will buy these rifles in hundreds of thousands in quantity,
> 
> but on other hand what has come out from R&D will be nearly 5x less expensive than these hk-417.. but R&D takes time.


 Exactly,are you will to make the army wait 5 more years. Plus there is no confirmation that the rifle we make will be good as the ones offered now. And by the time we make our own weapon these ones will have matured even more and turned into different beasts.

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## Super Falcon

haviZsultan said:


> MP5 is cheap and effective. It is a good option. I don't think we need to change our smg. We can't afford the P90 and other options are the MP4A1 and others. MP5 is better than this.


Yaar cut the crap word cheap you said same with G 3 but now they are been changed MP 5 seen its war now can be used by police Army needs bew Mp 5 and machine gun we used of ww2 hope army working in it too

Chalti ka naam gadu attitude should be over if it is a thinking than why MP 5 use thompson usa made it is more cheaper abd work well every thing has its time so MP 5 time is ovef as far as i know



Wolfhound said:


> Sir we dont need another smg. We need to replace the mp5 with any 5.56 carbine to increase legality and range. This is being done by leading countries in their future solider programs. There is a reason that SSG now prefers m4 carbines over the MP-5's it had.
> 
> Exactly,are you will to make the army wait 5 more years. Plus there is no confirmation that the rifle we make will be good as the ones offered now. And by the time we make our own weapon these ones will have matured even more and turned into different beasts.


Yes but still we need small numbers of smg some where we need to use them


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## Zarvan

Please identify the Gun which the Ranger on right is carrying
@Horus @Icarus @kaonalpha @balixd @Irfan Baloch @The Guy and others @Wolfhound @Sulman Badshah


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## PWFI

Wolfhound said:


> Sir we dont need another smg. *We need to replace the mp5 with any 5.56 carbine to increase legality and range. *This is being done by leading countries in their future solider programs. There is a reason that SSG now prefers m4 carbines over the MP-5's it had.



while back Pakistan army was testing something like vz58 as smg, what did happen to it?

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## Wolfhound

Zarvan said:


> View attachment 240839
> 
> Please identify the Gun which the Ranger on right is carrying
> @Horus @Icarus @kaonalpha @balixd @Irfan Baloch @The Guy and others @Wolfhound @Sulman Badshah


Its an MP-7



PWFI said:


> while back Pakistan army was testing something like vz58 as smg, what did happen to it?


We went for the Chinese type 56 and type 81 instead. Even though both were not in the category of smgs, they were still used as such because they weighed lighter and very easier to handle than the G3. This was done till the MP5 was introduced. Even now some old officers still call them smgs instead of assault rifles.

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## Super Falcon

Agreed my bet is on HK 417

WHAT OTHER GUNS PA HAS ON ITS LIST AFTER TURKISH GUN EVALUATION


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## That Guy

Zarvan said:


> View attachment 240839
> 
> Please identify the Gun which the Ranger on right is carrying
> @Horus @Icarus @kaonalpha @balixd @Irfan Baloch @The Guy and others @Wolfhound @Sulman Badshah


looks like an MP-7


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## tarrar

@Zarvan yes, of course PA needs to replace big & bulky G3's & old Aks will something good, modern & light assault riffles. The riffles which you have shared are very good option for PA.

Our SSG unit is using M4 Assault rifle which is a pretty good rifle.





And also I saw a pic of Pakistan security forces training with SCAR assault riffles. I am sorry I couldn't find the pic.

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## Amaa'n

Its a Glock pistol with Roni Kit, most probably service pistol G-17 or rarely G-18






Zarvan said:


> View attachment 240839
> 
> Please identify the Gun which the Ranger on right is carrying
> @Horus @Icarus @kaonalpha @balixd @Irfan Baloch @The Guy and others @Wolfhound @Sulman Badshah





That Guy said:


> looks like an MP-7





That Guy said:


> How did you confirm it, out of curiosity?


the same way I got confirmation about MBT-3000 landing in pakistan,, ......it wasn't hard to get this confirmed dear.....i have a friend confirmed it for me, who received the letter himself.....

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## That Guy

balixd said:


> Its a Glock pistol with Roni Kit, most probably service pistol G-17 or rarely G-18
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the same way I got confirmation about MBT-3000 landing in pakistan,, ......it wasn't hard to get this confirmed dear.....i have a friend confirmed it for me, who received the letter himself.....


Okay then, but can't blame me for being skeptical. We've had false starts in the past as well.

P.s. That looks remarkably like an mp-7.

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## kaonalpha

Zarvan said:


> View attachment 240839
> 
> Please identify the Gun which the Ranger on right is carrying
> @Horus @Icarus @kaonalpha @balixd @Irfan Baloch @The Guy and others @Wolfhound @Sulman Badshah


Glock 17 my brother has It. What you are seeing is a roni kit i5 is bought separately depending on who you are buying from.

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## Super Falcon

balixd said:


> Its a Glock pistol with Roni Kit, most probably service pistol G-17 or rarely G-18
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the same way I got confirmation about MBT-3000 landing in pakistan,, ......it wasn't hard to get this confirmed dear.....i have a friend confirmed it for me, who received the letter himself.....


Dear can u tell us PA which guns are on list for evaluation


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## unleashed

Wolfhound said:


> Dude, developing an assault rifle needs R&D and R&D needs alot of money. We have a very small budget and need to use it efficiently. If you are willing to lend the money we wont have any problem manufacturing rifles.


You mean procuring a foreign rifle is economical than developing your own??

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## knight11

Hey guys why not *QBZ-95*

Caliber: 5.8x42 mm (5.56x45 mm NATO)
Action: Gas operated, rotating bolt
Overall length: 760 mm
Barrel length: 520 mm
Weight: 3.4 kg unloaded
Rate of fire: ~ 650 rounds per minute
Magazine capacity: 30 rounds

In the late 1980s Chinese designers developed a 5.8 x 42 cartridge, apparently designated DBP87, which is claimed to be superior to both the 5.56 mm NATO and the 5.54 mm Soviet. This cartridge develops a muzzle velocity of 930 metres per second from a standard barrel, with a bullet weighing 4.26 gram.

As soon as the ammunition was ready, the PLA began to develop an entirely new and much more modern family of small arms based on the same action. This family, known as QBZ-95 ('Qing Buqiang Zu' = Light Rifles family, 1995), was first displayed outside the PLA in 1997, when China took over Hong Kong; it was observed that the Chinese guards were armed with a new, modern looking bullpup rifle. In fact it is one of an entirely new family of weapons, all designed around the same action and bullpup layout, which include the assault rifle, a shorter carbine, a light support weapon (with a bipod, a heavier barrel and large capacity magazine), and a sniper rifle. While being quite similar inside, these guns have different body shapes and cannot be converted from one configuration to another. The QBZ-95 line of weapons is now spreading throughout the PLA, commencing with elite units.

The QBZ-95 is a gas operated, magazine fed, automatic weapon with a bullpup layout. It has a short stroke gas piston and a rotating bolt. The charging handle is located at the top of the receiver, under the carrying handle. The housing is made from polymer, with an integral carrying handle, which holds the rear sight base, and has mounting points for optical or night vision scopes. The ejection port is made only at the right side of the weapon, so it cannot be fired from the left shoulder. Standard sights are of the open type, graduated from 100 to 500 meters. The front part of the barrel in the standard version is left unobstructed, so the QBZ-95 rifle can be used to launch rifle grenades. It also can be fitted with an underbarrel grenade launcher or with a knife bayonet. A compact carbine version, sometimes referred to as the CAR-95, cannot use either a grenade launcher or a bayonet, because of the much shortened barrel. Fire controls of QBZ-95 rifle consist of a trigger and a safety/selector switch, located (quite inconveniently) at the rear left of the receiver, behind the magazine housing. QBZ-95 can fire single shots or bursts.

The export version, QBZ-97, which is chambered for popular 5.56 x 45 NATO ammunition, is internally similar to QBZ-95, but has a different, much deeper magazine housing, which accepts a NATO-standard (M16-type) magazines.


During 2010-2011 PLA has adopted an improved version of the Type 95 / QBZ-95 rifle, known as Type 95-1 / QBZ-95-1. This rifle includes several important improvements, based on the field experience with original rifles. Polymer stock is made stronger, barrel is mproved to provide longer service life and better accuracy. Pistol grip and trigger aguard are redesigned, and selector / safety switch is moved to much more comfortable position, right above the pistol grip. Other improvements include addition of the bolt hold-open device and gas regulator. Ejection port is moved forward slightly to ensure that spent cases are ejected forward and to the right, allowing for left-hand shooting if necessary. Type 95-1 / QBZ-95-1 rifles and carbines now can be equipped with new, 35-mm underbarrel grenade launcher, known as QLG-10A. Rifle grenades still can be fired from the muzzle using special blank ammunition.






The QBZ-95 or Type 95 assault rifle has been developed in China. It is an entirely new and modern family of weapons, which uses newly developed Chinese ammunition. This assault rifle has been designed to replace the ageing Type 81. The QBZ-95 was first adopted by the PLA elite units, however soon after it became the standard issue infantry rifle with the Chinese army, armed police and other law enforcement forces. This assault rifle was first observed in 1997. Export operators are Cambodia and Sri Lanka.

It is a gas operated, selective fire assault rifle, with a bullpup layout. This weapon is chambered for indigenous Chinese 5.8 x 42 mm ammunition. This cartridge had been developed in the late 1980s. It is claimed to be superior to the standard NATO 5.56 x 45 mm and Soviet 5.45 x 39 mm ammunition. Design of this weapon do not resembles any of the previous Chinese designs.

All weapons of the QBZ-95 family are designed around the same action and bullpup layout with a polymer housing. This family also includes a carbine and light machine gun. However these weapons can not be converted from one configuration to another.

A safety / fire mode selector switch is located behind the magazine, from the left side. This assault rifle produces single shots, three round bursts or fully automatic fire. The QBZ-95 incorporates some features to reduce recoil, which is claimed to be low.

The QBZ-95 is not ambidextrous. It's ejection port is made at the right side only. This weapon is fed from box-shaped polymer magazines, holding 30 rounds.

Chinese sources reported that the QBZ-95 is as accurate as the US M16A3 and as reliable as the Soviet AK-74, however these claims have not been confirmed by Western sources.

An integral carrying handle comes with built-in rear sight base. It is an open type and has a sighting range of 500 m. The carrying handle has mounting points for various sights or night vision scopes. Effective range of fire is about 400 m against a point target and 600 m against area target.

The QBZ-95 assault rifle is compatible with a 40-mm underbarrel grenade launcher, similar to the US M203. A more compact indigenous underbarrel grenade launcher has also been observed. The QBZ-95 can also be used to launch rifle grenades. A knife-bayonet can be attached.



Variants



QBZ-95-1 improved version with a relocated fire mode selector switch and some other improvements;

QBZ-97 export version, chambered for the 5.56 x 45 mm standard NATO round and compatible with the standard NATO (M16-type) magazines. Internally it is similar to the QBZ-95. Another variant - the QBZ-97A has additional three-round burst mode and a different pistol grip;

QBZ-95B carbine. This is a shorter and lighter version of the assault rifle. It is not compatible with bayonet or underbarrel grenade launcher due to it's short barrel;

QBB-95 light machine gun, fitted with a bipod and heavier barrel. It uses a 75 round drum-type magazine.


















*Weapon*

*Ammunition*

*Weight*

*Magazines*

*Price*

*QBZ-95 Assault Rifle*

5.8mm Chinese

3.4 kg

30

$559

*QBZ-97 Assault Rifle*

5.56mm NATO

3.35 kg

30

$579

*QBZ-95 Carbine*

5.8mm Chinese

2.86 kg

30

$520

*QBZ-97 Carbine*

5.56mm NATO

3.15 kg

30

$529

*QBZ-97A*

5.56mm NATO

3.35 kg

30

$579


----------



## Zarvan

knight11 said:


> Hey guys why not *QBZ-95*
> 
> Caliber: 5.8x42 mm (5.56x45 mm NATO)
> Action: Gas operated, rotating bolt
> Overall length: 760 mm
> Barrel length: 520 mm
> Weight: 3.4 kg unloaded
> Rate of fire: ~ 650 rounds per minute
> Magazine capacity: 30 rounds
> 
> In the late 1980s Chinese designers developed a 5.8 x 42 cartridge, apparently designated DBP87, which is claimed to be superior to both the 5.56 mm NATO and the 5.54 mm Soviet. This cartridge develops a muzzle velocity of 930 metres per second from a standard barrel, with a bullet weighing 4.26 gram.
> 
> As soon as the ammunition was ready, the PLA began to develop an entirely new and much more modern family of small arms based on the same action. This family, known as QBZ-95 ('Qing Buqiang Zu' = Light Rifles family, 1995), was first displayed outside the PLA in 1997, when China took over Hong Kong; it was observed that the Chinese guards were armed with a new, modern looking bullpup rifle. In fact it is one of an entirely new family of weapons, all designed around the same action and bullpup layout, which include the assault rifle, a shorter carbine, a light support weapon (with a bipod, a heavier barrel and large capacity magazine), and a sniper rifle. While being quite similar inside, these guns have different body shapes and cannot be converted from one configuration to another. The QBZ-95 line of weapons is now spreading throughout the PLA, commencing with elite units.
> 
> The QBZ-95 is a gas operated, magazine fed, automatic weapon with a bullpup layout. It has a short stroke gas piston and a rotating bolt. The charging handle is located at the top of the receiver, under the carrying handle. The housing is made from polymer, with an integral carrying handle, which holds the rear sight base, and has mounting points for optical or night vision scopes. The ejection port is made only at the right side of the weapon, so it cannot be fired from the left shoulder. Standard sights are of the open type, graduated from 100 to 500 meters. The front part of the barrel in the standard version is left unobstructed, so the QBZ-95 rifle can be used to launch rifle grenades. It also can be fitted with an underbarrel grenade launcher or with a knife bayonet. A compact carbine version, sometimes referred to as the CAR-95, cannot use either a grenade launcher or a bayonet, because of the much shortened barrel. Fire controls of QBZ-95 rifle consist of a trigger and a safety/selector switch, located (quite inconveniently) at the rear left of the receiver, behind the magazine housing. QBZ-95 can fire single shots or bursts.
> 
> The export version, QBZ-97, which is chambered for popular 5.56 x 45 NATO ammunition, is internally similar to QBZ-95, but has a different, much deeper magazine housing, which accepts a NATO-standard (M16-type) magazines.
> 
> 
> During 2010-2011 PLA has adopted an improved version of the Type 95 / QBZ-95 rifle, known as Type 95-1 / QBZ-95-1. This rifle includes several important improvements, based on the field experience with original rifles. Polymer stock is made stronger, barrel is mproved to provide longer service life and better accuracy. Pistol grip and trigger aguard are redesigned, and selector / safety switch is moved to much more comfortable position, right above the pistol grip. Other improvements include addition of the bolt hold-open device and gas regulator. Ejection port is moved forward slightly to ensure that spent cases are ejected forward and to the right, allowing for left-hand shooting if necessary. Type 95-1 / QBZ-95-1 rifles and carbines now can be equipped with new, 35-mm underbarrel grenade launcher, known as QLG-10A. Rifle grenades still can be fired from the muzzle using special blank ammunition.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The QBZ-95 or Type 95 assault rifle has been developed in China. It is an entirely new and modern family of weapons, which uses newly developed Chinese ammunition. This assault rifle has been designed to replace the ageing Type 81. The QBZ-95 was first adopted by the PLA elite units, however soon after it became the standard issue infantry rifle with the Chinese army, armed police and other law enforcement forces. This assault rifle was first observed in 1997. Export operators are Cambodia and Sri Lanka.
> 
> It is a gas operated, selective fire assault rifle, with a bullpup layout. This weapon is chambered for indigenous Chinese 5.8 x 42 mm ammunition. This cartridge had been developed in the late 1980s. It is claimed to be superior to the standard NATO 5.56 x 45 mm and Soviet 5.45 x 39 mm ammunition. Design of this weapon do not resembles any of the previous Chinese designs.
> 
> All weapons of the QBZ-95 family are designed around the same action and bullpup layout with a polymer housing. This family also includes a carbine and light machine gun. However these weapons can not be converted from one configuration to another.
> 
> A safety / fire mode selector switch is located behind the magazine, from the left side. This assault rifle produces single shots, three round bursts or fully automatic fire. The QBZ-95 incorporates some features to reduce recoil, which is claimed to be low.
> 
> The QBZ-95 is not ambidextrous. It's ejection port is made at the right side only. This weapon is fed from box-shaped polymer magazines, holding 30 rounds.
> 
> Chinese sources reported that the QBZ-95 is as accurate as the US M16A3 and as reliable as the Soviet AK-74, however these claims have not been confirmed by Western sources.
> 
> An integral carrying handle comes with built-in rear sight base. It is an open type and has a sighting range of 500 m. The carrying handle has mounting points for various sights or night vision scopes. Effective range of fire is about 400 m against a point target and 600 m against area target.
> 
> The QBZ-95 assault rifle is compatible with a 40-mm underbarrel grenade launcher, similar to the US M203. A more compact indigenous underbarrel grenade launcher has also been observed. The QBZ-95 can also be used to launch rifle grenades. A knife-bayonet can be attached.
> 
> 
> 
> Variants
> 
> 
> 
> QBZ-95-1 improved version with a relocated fire mode selector switch and some other improvements;
> 
> QBZ-97 export version, chambered for the 5.56 x 45 mm standard NATO round and compatible with the standard NATO (M16-type) magazines. Internally it is similar to the QBZ-95. Another variant - the QBZ-97A has additional three-round burst mode and a different pistol grip;
> 
> QBZ-95B carbine. This is a shorter and lighter version of the assault rifle. It is not compatible with bayonet or underbarrel grenade launcher due to it's short barrel;
> 
> QBB-95 light machine gun, fitted with a bipod and heavier barrel. It uses a 75 round drum-type magazine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Weapon*
> 
> *Ammunition*
> 
> *Weight*
> 
> *Magazines*
> 
> *Price*
> 
> *QBZ-95 Assault Rifle*
> 
> 5.8mm Chinese
> 
> 3.4 kg
> 
> 30
> 
> $559
> 
> *QBZ-97 Assault Rifle*
> 
> 5.56mm NATO
> 
> 3.35 kg
> 
> 30
> 
> $579
> 
> *QBZ-95 Carbine*
> 
> 5.8mm Chinese
> 
> 2.86 kg
> 
> 30
> 
> $520
> 
> *QBZ-97 Carbine*
> 
> 5.56mm NATO
> 
> 3.15 kg
> 
> 30
> 
> $529
> 
> *QBZ-97A*
> 
> 5.56mm NATO
> 
> 3.35 kg
> 
> 30
> 
> $579


Pakistan doesn't like it much


----------



## Super Falcon

I think HK 417 or Scar nothing else

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## In arduis fidelis

Isnt SCAR a special operation specialized weapon developed for SOCOM,how do you expect it to be made a standard issue for whole standing army.It may be alright for SSG and other special operation groups but for whole army we need a battle rifle more near to Hk-417 or mpt.


----------



## Zarvan

Rafay Jamil said:


> Isnt SCAR a special operation specialized weapon developed for SOCOM,how do you expect it to be made a standard issue for whole standing army.It may be alright for SSG and other special operation groups but for whole army we need a battle rifle more near to Hk-417 or mpt.


No it has both calibers and can be used for both

Reactions: Like Like:
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## knight11

Zarvan said:


> Pakistan doesn't like it much



Reason
You know very well to replace all old H&K assault riffle will be very costly and China as a friend and main weapon supplier can give enourmous and exceptional support to pak in Price, Payment Terms and TOT.


----------



## hkdas

Max Pain said:


> a special unit of Sindh Police,
> they even had Brettta ARX 160


they have Bretta ARX 160.. but not SCAR



Max Pain said:


> 417 is not a DMR,
> it has a DMR version though but so did the G3,
> 417 is perfect for army here.


H&K 416/417 are one of the most expensive weapons in this world. pakistan can afford to equip all the infantry soldiers with that weapon?


----------



## Zarvan

knight11 said:


> Reason
> You know very well to replace all old H&K assault riffle will be very costly and China as a friend and main weapon supplier can give enourmous and exceptional support to pak in Price, Payment Terms and TOT.


We have the money I know some Indians have delusion of that we don't but reality is far different. We have the money and we would select the best.



hkdas said:


> they have Bretta ARX 160.. but not SCAR
> 
> 
> H&K 416/417 are one of the most expensive weapons in this world. pakistan can afford to equip all the infantry soldiers with that weapon?


If we have decided to replace and get new Gun yes we have the money

Reactions: Like Like:
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## hkdas

Zarvan said:


> If we have decided to replace and get new Gun yes we have the money


then good for you. for that you need to increase your defense budget. even US chose to continue to use M4 for their infantry soldiers because of the high cost of the H&K. if pakistan can afford that weapon with just 8 billion $ defense budget then it will be a miracle


----------



## knight11

Zarvan said:


> We have the money I know some Indians have delusion of that we don't but reality is far different. We have the money and we would select the best.
> 
> 
> If we have decided to replace and get new Gun yes we have the money


That was not any delusion of any sort if pakistan has money than go ahead, actually India don't have have money to buy thats why scrap the whole tender for the rifles and go for the indigenous riffles.

Which callibre the Pak army is looking forware 5.5 or 7.2 mm


----------



## Zarvan

knight11 said:


> That was not any delusion of any sort if pakistan has money than go ahead, actually India don't have have money to buy thats why scrap the whole tender for the rifles and go for the indigenous riffles.
> 
> Which callibre the Pak army is looking forware 5.5 or 7.2 mm


7.62 you have the money your issue is corruption which you need to check


----------



## Super Falcon

Why indians have probleum that pak have money of not one thing entire india should makd clear pak always have money if we dont nation will donate but one way or anotger we buy to kill u 

If we never had money how we buy 8 subs 
heli from russia and usa


----------



## In arduis fidelis

hkdas said:


> they have Bretta ARX 160.. but not SCAR


There was a picture lying around here somewhere with four guys of SSU and one of them was holding a SCAR,so they do have it.


----------



## hkdas

Rafay Jamil said:


> There was a picture lying around here somewhere with four guys of SSU and one of them was holding a SCAR,so they do have it.



check that pics again, there was no scar in that pics.


----------



## In arduis fidelis

hkdas said:


> check that pics again, there was no scar in that pics.


Cant find it thats why i didnt post it


----------



## untitled

Rafay Jamil said:


> Isnt SCAR a special operation specialized weapon developed for SOCOM........



Everything initially offered to special forces eventually becomes standard issue
BTW not a fan of HK-416s or SCARs


----------



## Icarus

Zarvan said:


> Please identify the Gun which the Ranger on right is carrying



Its an MP-7


----------



## Paksanity

hkdas said:


> then good for you. for that you need to increase your defense budget. even US chose to continue to use M4 for their infantry soldiers because of the high cost of the H&K. if pakistan can afford that weapon with just 8 billion $ defense budget then it will be a miracle



One can not disagree with you entirely. Truth is no country has unlimited defence budget and new procurements have to be carefully managed to make the best of allocated funds. Replacing main assault rifle of an army of the size of Pakistan involves massive amount of money hence calls for cost mitigation measures. My guess is Pakistan will put in place range of measures to get best weapon with least possible expenditure. Few of them could be

1. Span replacement program over many years, something like 15 years or even more. Allocating a portion of defence budget each year. G-3 isn't that bad and can soldier on with some units for another decade or two till finally relegated to reserve units.

2. Local assembly is almost certain given the number of units needed which could end up well over a million copies. Number of units along with prolonged production will bring the cost down. As production run continues, more and more components will be locally manufactured and hence will keep bringing cost down.

3. Arms companies deal differently with large government contracts compared to individual sales at local gun store. These are huge contracts and can turn around fortune of any company. Competition thus ensues bringing costs down with some deal sweeteners thrown in. If government negotiators are sincere and competent, they can pull off a great deal. Most often than not corruption sends the price through the roof. I sure hope our negotiators do well here.

4. There can always be a possibility of support through soft loans given the size of deal so can't rule that out either. HK made some good business with G-3 from us and Pak made units were of good quality so they don't have to worry about their reputation.

In nutshell, we hope to get a good deal and we are not in hurry. G-3 has got us covered for the time being and while it is an old design it works well. What is the final outcome of all this, well.....your guess is as good as mine.


----------



## Zarvan

Icarus said:


> Its an MP-7


You are saying MP-7 others are saying Block fitted in a system


----------



## Wolfhound

hkdas said:


> then good for you. for that you need to increase your defense budget. even US chose to continue to use M4 for their infantry soldiers because of the high cost of the H&K. if pakistan can afford that weapon with just 8 billion $ defense budget then it will be a miracle


OR we do the smart thing and buy the next best thing, The MPT-76. It should either be MPT-76 or if we have alot of money Fn Scar and Hk417. I hope we go with Fn Scar as its more lighter than both of the aforementioned rifles and has a more controllable rate of fire 600r

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## Icarus

Zarvan said:


> You are saying MP-7 others are saying Block fitted in a system



MP-7, the glock accessory has a completely different stock shape.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


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## Zarvan

Icarus said:


> MP-7, the glock accessory has a completely different stock shape.


Thanks Sir @kaonalpha @Horus @Wolfhound

Reactions: Like Like:
2


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## Wolfhound

unleashed said:


> You mean procuring a foreign rifle is economical than developing your own??


Yes specially when you dont have the money for R&D and are short in time.


----------



## hkdas

Paksanity said:


> One can not disagree with you entirely. Truth is no country has unlimited defence budget and new procurements have to be carefully managed to make the best of allocated funds. Replacing main assault rifle of an army of the size of Pakistan involves massive amount of money hence calls for cost mitigation measures. My guess is Pakistan will put in place range of measures to get best weapon with least possible expenditure. Few of them could be
> 
> 1. Span replacement program over many years, something like 15 years or even more. Allocating a portion of defence budget each year. G-3 isn't that bad and can soldier on with some units for another decade or two till finally relegated to reserve units.
> 
> 2. Local assembly is almost certain given the number of units needed which could end up well over a million copies. Number of units along with prolonged production will bring the cost down. As production run continues, more and more components will be locally manufactured and hence will keep bringing cost down.
> 
> 3. Arms companies deal differently with large government contracts compared to individual sales at local gun store. These are huge contracts and can turn around fortune of any company. Competition thus ensues bringing costs down with some deal sweeteners thrown in. If government negotiators are sincere and competent, they can pull off a great deal. Most often than not corruption sends the price through the roof. I sure hope our negotiators do well here.
> 
> 4. There can always be a possibility of support through soft loans given the size of deal so can't rule that out either. HK made some good business with G-3 from us and Pak made units were of good quality so they don't have to worry about their reputation.
> 
> In nutshell, we hope to get a good deal and we are not in hurry. G-3 has got us covered for the time being and while it is an old design it works well. What is the final outcome of all this, well.....your guess is as good as mine.



but you need to pay extra money for ToT, and for licence for producing their product in pakistan. you cannot produce a ferrari car in the same price of TATA nato. just like that you cannot produce H&K 416 at the same price of G3. the rate of production of a guns are up to 2 lakh/year. so you think pakistan can pay the price of 1 lakh Hk product in a year??



Wolfhound said:


> OR we do the smart thing and buy the next best thing, The MPT-76. It should either be MPT-76 or if we have alot of money Fn Scar and Hk417. I hope we go with Fn Scar as its more lighter than both of the aforementioned rifles and has a more controllable rate of fire 600r


what about Chinese ZH-05 ??





The Chinese Army Gets A Smart Grenade Launcher For Christmas | Popular Science
Russian Website shows New Chinese ZH-05 Assault Rifle / Grenade Launcher - Guns.com


----------



## Wolfhound

hkdas said:


> but you need to pay extra money for ToT, and for licence for producing their product in pakistan. you cannot produce a ferrari car in the same price of TATA nato. just like that you cannot produce H&K 416 at the same price of G3. the rate of production of a guns are up to 2 lakh/year. so you think pakistan can pay the price of 1 lakh Hk product in a year??


Bhai jan, we may be buying the cheaper turkish alternative, the MPT-76 instead. It is a much cheaper rifle with same or better performance.



hkdas said:


> what about Chinese ZH-05 ??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Chinese Army Gets A Smart Grenade Launcher For Christmas | Popular Science
> Russian Website shows New Chinese ZH-05 Assault Rifle / Grenade Launcher - Guns.com


Firstly its chambered in 5.8 we are going for both 7.62 and 5.56, secondly its a new rifle and not mature enough and lastly its ugly as fu*ck(no offence).

Reactions: Like Like:
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## hkdas

Wolfhound said:


> we are going for both 7.62 and 5.56



you mean multi caliber rifle??

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## Paksanity

hkdas said:


> but you need to pay extra money for ToT, and for licence for producing their product in pakistan. you cannot produce a ferrari car in the same price of TATA nato. just like that you cannot produce H&K 416 at the same price of G3. the rate of production of a guns are up to 2 lakh/year. so you think pakistan can pay the price of 1 lakh Hk product in a year??



Rights to license production and ToT is most probably one time payment. And yes, from the look of it Pakistan has got the money. Agreed Hk-417 or 416 will be way expensive compared to G-3 but there are other options off course. Let's see how it plays out. PA more often than not pulls off good defence deals.

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## hkdas

Paksanity said:


> .PA more often than not pulls off good defence deals.


any official conformation from the army about the plan to replace G-3?


----------



## nik22

Wolfhound said:


> Firstly its chambered in 5.8 we are going for both 7.62 and 5.56, secondly its a new rifle and not mature enough and lastly its ugly as fu*ck(no offence).



fu*ck is ugly? come on man

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Pak_Track

Zarvan said:


> *Beretta ARX-160 assault rifle (Italy)*
> _
> 
> 
> Beretta ARX-160 assault rifle, early prototype (ca.2008)_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Beretta ARX-160 assault rifle, production version (2013) in 5.56x45 NATO
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Beretta ARX-160 assault rifle, production version (2013) in 7.62x39 M43 Russian
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Beretta ARX-160 assault rifle, production version with GLX-160 grenade launcher
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Beretta ARX-100 self-loading rifle for civilian use, in 7.62x39 Russian
> 
> _
> 
> 
> Beretta ARX-160 assault rifle partially disassembled_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Caliber*: 5.56x45mm NATO, 7.62x39 M43
> *Action:* Gas operated, rotating bolt
> *Overall length*: 820-900 mm with 406 mm barrel and butt in ready position; 680 mm with butt folded
> *Barrel length*: 305 mm / 12" or 406 mm / 16", quick changeable
> *Weight*: ~ 3.1 kg with 406 mm barrel, w/o mag
> *Rate of fire*: 700 rounds per minute
> *Magazine capacity*: 30 rounds
> 
> 
> 
> The Beretta ARX-160 assault rifle is manufactured by famous Beretta company in Italy. Starting 2012, ARX-160 rifle is in use by Italian army. It is also offered for export, with initial customers being Special Forces of Algeria, Egypt and Kazakhstan (latter bought 7.62x39 version). A semi-automatic only version of the ARX-160 is offered for civilian sales as Beretta ARX-100 rifle, also in 5.56 / .223 Rem and 7.62x39.
> 
> 
> 
> The Beretta ARX-160 assault rifle is gas operated weapon that utilizes conventional piston-operated action, with short stroke gas piston located above the barrel. Barrel locking is achieved by more or less conventional rotary bolt. Unlike most other assault rifles, the Beretta ARX-160 assault rifle features quick-detachable barrels, which can be changed by operator in the field by depressing the barrel release button (located on right side of receiver, in front of magazine housing), pulling the barrel forward and out of the gun, and then inserting another (or same) barrel back. The receiver consists of two parts, upper (which holds barrel and bolt group) and lower (which hosts magazine housing, trigger unit and pistol grip). Both halves are made from impact-resistant polymer and connected using special quick-release locks, so there are no pins to push out (and lose). Another interesting and unusual feature of the Beretta ARX-160 assault rifle is that it has selectable left / right side ejection system with dual ejection ports (on either side of the gun) and user-switchable left / right position of cocking handle. To change the direction of empty case ejection, user has to push the cross-bolt button, located above and slightly to the rear of pistol grip, by the tip of the bullet (or other pointed item). This affects dual extractor-ejector claws, installed on the bolt, forcing them to eject spent cartridge to the desired side without any further disassembly of the gun or parts change. Charging handle, which is attached to the bolt carrier, also can be installed on either side of the gun. The Beretta ARX-160 assault rifle fires from closed bolt, in single shots and full automatic mode, and has ambidextrous safety / fire mode selector switch conveniently located above pistol grip. Upper receiver is fitted with full-length Picatinny type rail, made of aluminum, which can accommodate a wide variety of sighting equipment, including iron, telescopic, red-dot or electronic sights. Standard open sights are mounted on folding bases using rail interface. Additional lengths of Picatinny rail are installed on the forend on 3-, 6- and 9- o'clock positions. Lower (6-o'clock) position rail is strong enough to host GLX 160 40mm single-shot grenade launcher. Standard buttstock is also made of plastic, and folds to the right side. The buttstock is of telescoped, user-adjustable design.


That Beretta is a solid choice. Very simple field-stripping and well suited for left and right handed soldiers. It has two extractors to allow for left and right ejection and also, if one extractor breaks in the field, the operator can simply switch to the other one.
Seems like most of our members are judging the guns by how they look like.


----------



## Kompromat

Icarus said:


> MP-7, the glock accessory has a completely different stock shape.



Any replacement plans for g3 or its just hogwash?


----------



## Pak_Track

Horus said:


> Any replacement plans for g3 or its just hogwash?


I presume such hogwash has happened before?


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## cabatli_53

Wolfhound said:


> OR we do the smart thing and buy the next best thing, The MPT-76. It should either be MPT-76 or if we have alot of money Fn Scar and Hk417. I hope we go with Fn Scar as its more lighter than both of the aforementioned rifles and has a more controllable rate of fire 600r



First order: 20,000 MPT-76
Worth: 80 million TL
---------------------------------------
One MPT-76: 4000TL (1490 $)

No other Western state can produce such a quality and effective rifle in that price. In trials, All possibilities are checked in mud, sand, rainy and icy conditions and This rifle performed perfect without meeting any single problem.

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## Pak_Track

cabatli_53 said:


> First order: 20,000 MPT-76
> Worth: 80 million TL
> ---------------------------------------
> One MPT-76: 4000TL (1490 $)


Aren't bulk orders discounted?


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## cabatli_53

Pak_Track said:


> Aren't bulk orders discounted?




As far as I know, It contains MPT-76 box having following equipments;

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## WaLeEdK2

Mpt-76 is the best option at the moment for PA. It's the most cost effective. But we should really be making our own service rifle.

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## Pak_Track

WaLeEdK2 said:


> Mpt-76 is the best option at the moment for PA. It's the most cost effective. But we should really be making our own service rifle.
> View attachment 241048
> 
> View attachment 241049


Indeed. Even several small American businesses are designing AR uppers and lowers.


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## cabatli_53

From delivery. Turkish style ceremony !

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## Paksanity

cabatli_53 said:


> From delivery. Turkish style ceremony !



I wish Turkish rifle does well in trials. If it matches up to PA requirements, I don't see a better option. Turkey is one country we love.... Best of luck in competition.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

2800 said:


> @Horus This idiot @rockstar08 is insulting Iranians right and left. Will you please check his comments and deal with him. Thank you. Plus I'll delete my comment here after few minutes.
> 
> What would Pakistan's response be if Israel was to attack iran?


Says the iranian troll.

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## Wolfhound

hkdas said:


> you mean multi caliber rifle??


Yes exactly, It is the need of the hour. We cant have different types of weapons for every caliber. Buying or producing a multi caliber rifle is the right step. 1 weapon can replace 3 types(SMG's , assault rifles and DMR's) with just a barrel change and can cut down on logistics, time and cost. Plus having a weapon with 90% commonality with all the other helps, you can fix a broken weapon on the field in minutes just by swaping parts instead of sending the whole of it back to a factory for repair. Just imagine how many lives can be saved with this.



hkdas said:


> any official conformation from the army about the plan to replace G-3?


Our COAS mentioned it in a speech and then a notification was sent to all officers via OS.



cabatli_53 said:


> First order: 20,000 MPT-76
> Worth: 80 million TL
> ---------------------------------------
> One MPT-76: 4000TL (1490 $)
> 
> No other Western state can produce such a quality and effective rifle in that price. In trials, All possibilities are checked in mud, sand, rainy and icy conditions and This rifle performed perfect without meeting any single problem.


I just want them to pass the tests quickly and be mass produced here aswell.

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## Zarvan

cabatli_53 said:


> From delivery. Turkish style ceremony !


I hope it passes the tests impressive rate of fire, but passing tests in one of the most freezing and most hot temperatures is not a easy task.

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## FNFAL

Quick Question: pak forces use a lot of 5.56 based weapons from M4s to Augs- Do you make them in your national ordnance factories or do you buy them off the shelf from outside?


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## Zarvan

FNFAL said:


> Quick Question: pak forces use a lot of 5.56 based weapons from M4s to Augs- Do you make them in your national ordnance factories or do you buy them off the shelf from outside?


We buy them only MP5 was build here not M4 and AUGS


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## In arduis fidelis

Zarvan said:


> We buy them only MP5 was build here not M4 and AUGS


I think he was talking about the munition


----------



## Desert Fox

cabatli_53 said:


> From delivery. Turkish style ceremony !


I hope Pakistan chooses the MPT-76 if it meets our requirements. We already use the powerful 7.62×51mm NATO round for our G3's so availability of ammo wouldn't be an issue.

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## Zarvan

Desert Fox said:


> I hope Pakistan chooses the MPT-76 if it meets our requirements. We already use the powerful 7.62×51mm NATO round for our G3's so availability of ammo wouldn't be an issue.


I would love to see them in Pakistan but passing tests in Deserts and most freezing temperature on face of the earth is not a easy task.

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## Desert Fox

Zarvan said:


> I would love to see them in Pakistan but passing tests in Deserts and most freezing temperature on face of the earth is not a easy task.


Turkey also has mountainous terrain where freezing temperature is prevalent so i don't think that would be an issue, at least i hope not. Though, i'm not too sure if the MPT-76 could withstand the Pakistani desert heat.


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## Path-Finder

Full Auto has a lot of kick in it. If it does not pass the trials then other options will be little more costly to procure if they pass the tests!


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## FNFAL

Zarvan said:


> We buy them only MP5 was build here not M4 and AUGS



Yes im aware of the lic production of hk products..i was specifically asking about producing ammo.
If you guys go for new round, a major chunk of the money will be spent on re-tooling y.Depending on budget available, the choice of future round will be influenced.


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## That Guy

Icarus said:


> MP-7, the glock accessory has a completely different stock shape.


@Zarvan It's a glock with a RONI system. I thought it was an mp-7 as well, it turns out that I was wrong. The shape fits the RONI configuration perfectly.

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## That Guy

Technogaianist said:


> SIG P226 with the RONI system
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's an MP7 for comparison
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SIG P226, not Glock:
> 
> http://www.caa-il.com/viewCategory.asp?catID=376
> 
> CAA RONI Pistol Carbine Conversion for P226


we don't have a clear picture of the gun itself, so it could very well still be a glock.

Whatever it is, its not an mp-7.


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## bdslph

Pakistan its always fight terrorist and other missions
so it need good reliable toy 

AK 12 AK series did Pakistani consider that

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## Zarvan

FNFAL said:


> Yes im aware of the lic production of hk products..i was specifically asking about producing ammo.
> If you guys go for new round, a major chunk of the money will be spent on re-tooling y.Depending on budget available, the choice of future round will be influenced.


We would go for same caliber but yes we produce other caliber also


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## Armstrong

Technogaianist said:


> RONI system:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's an MP7 for comparison



I've played with better guns in Call of Duty 4 and you want us to equip our army with this plastic drill machine ? 

Heck even our Enemies would be insulted if someone shot them with this carpenter's tool !

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## Fenrir

Armstrong said:


> I've played with better guns in Call of Duty 4 and you want us to equip our army with this plastic drill machine ?
> 
> Heck even our Enemies would be insulted if someone shot them with this carpenter's tool !



So no plastic guns then? How about this?






In all seriousness though, why not the HK417?






Norway traded its AG3 for the Hk416 military wide and the HK417 as a squad-level sniper weapon:

It's a great replacement for the G3 and serve much the same function (long-range precision fire. It's not a close-range weapon).

It's almost 8, I've got to get to work.

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## Zarvan

Technogaianist said:


> So no plastic guns then? How about this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In all seriousness though, why not the HK417?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Norway traded its AG3 for the Hk416 military wide and the HK417 as a squad-level sniper weapon:
> 
> It's a great replacement for the G3 and serve much the same function (long-range precision fire. It's not a close-range weapon).
> 
> It's almost 8, I've got to get to work.


If Norway went for HK-417 and HK-416 than its dam good weapon for cold weather only question is How it works in 50 C temperature. @DESERT FIGHTER



bdslph said:


> Pakistan its always fight terrorist and other missions
> so it need good reliable toy
> 
> AK 12 AK series did Pakistani consider that


The work has just begun we would test all the major Guns including AK-12


----------



## That Guy

FNFAL said:


> Quick Question: pak forces use a lot of 5.56 based weapons from M4s to Augs- Do you make them in your national ordnance factories or do you buy them off the shelf from outside?


The ammunition is home made, but it's not popular, even among the military brass. The 7.62 is considered to be better, and generally preferred due to it's stopping power, and because of the number of 7.62 rifles there are in both the civil and military markets.



Technogaianist said:


> So no plastic guns then? How about this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In all seriousness though, why not the HK417?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Norway traded its AG3 for the Hk416 military wide and the HK417 as a squad-level sniper weapon:
> 
> It's a great replacement for the G3 and serve much the same function (long-range precision fire. It's not a close-range weapon).
> 
> It's almost 8, I've got to get to work.


More than likely, PA (if this situation is real) is going to prefer the HK option, as HK and PA have a long history together and close working relationship.

PA knows and trusts HK, due to the fact that the G3 has been so reliable, so HK (if it comes down to a competition) has an advantage from the get go, against potential competitors.


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## Icarus

Horus said:


> Any replacement plans for g3 or its just hogwash?



Frankly, I haven't heard anything about it yet.

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## FNFAL

Zarvan said:


> We would go for same caliber but yes we produce other caliber also


When you say same i assume you mean 7.62.



That Guy said:


> The ammunition is home made, but it's not popular, even among the military brass. The 7.62 is considered to be better, and generally preferred due to it's stopping power, and because of the number of 7.62 rifles there are in both the civil and military markets.


Makes sense to stick to 7.62. even if you produce 556, im sure the ready available qty will be faaar less than 762.

Having said that , what does a new 7.62 based system bring to the table which the latest g3 doesnt, apart from true assault rifle vs a battle rifle. ..this is in terms of performance vs cost?

My humble opinion is most 7.62 systems at this point of time., are being presented as specialized class of weapons- the heavy hitters where 556 doesnt cut it. But nowhere in the doctrines of the eastern or west militaries, does it figure as a weapon to arm their infantry as bulk weapons.


----------



## Akasa

A few options are available for Pakistan:

QBZ-91 with flat top:





Upgraded QBZ-03:





CS/LR-14:





ZH-05:





And of course, the one and only Diemaco C8:


----------



## Max Pain

hkdas said:


> they have Bretta ARX 160.. but not SCAR
> 
> 
> H&K 416/417 are one of the most expensive weapons in this world. pakistan can afford to equip all the infantry soldiers with that weapon?


Another member has even posted the pic of Scar H with the sindh police special forces operatives. 

Oh and indians always claim how are we going to buy it just like the case with F 16 but we eventually end up buying em so chillax


----------



## hkdas

Max Pain said:


> Another member has even posted the pic of Scar H with the sindh police special forces operatives.
> 
> Oh and indians always claim how are we going to buy it just like the case with F 16 but we eventually end up buying em so chillax



no one in that pics is holding SCAR. i saw that pics.
lol.. what are you saying?? i just asked a simple question and you got your @$$ burned? AFAIK no forces in pakistan uses FN SCAR. if you have any proof then pls.. share it.


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## Zarvan

I really hope at least two Gun pass tests one of them should be and must be MPT-76 and I hope MPT-76 at least proves to be three times better than G3 in all conditions, because it is the most easiest probably cheapest option for us. 
@Icarus @Hakan @cabatli_53 @Sinan @kaonalpha @balixd @DESERT FIGHTER @Sulman Badshah @StArk 13 @Tipu7 @Neptune


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## Icarus

hkdas said:


> no one in that pics is holding SCAR. i saw that pics.
> lol.. what are you saying?? i just asked a simple question and you got your @$$ burned? AFAIK no forces in pakistan uses FN SCAR. if you have any proof then pls.. share it.



@Horus yaar woh SSU ki SCAR wali pic hogi teray pass?


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## Kompromat

Icarus said:


> @Horus yaar woh SSU ki SCAR wali pic hogi teray pass?



It was an ARX-160 
SSG had some SCARs for T&E

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## Zarvan

Icarus said:


> @Horus yaar woh SSU ki SCAR wali pic hogi teray pass?

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## Zarvan




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## Path-Finder

The interesting thing to note is there are two variants of AMX Rifle in this picture, 5.56 and 7.62x39!

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Icarus said:


> @Horus yaar woh SSU ki SCAR wali pic hogi teray pass?




That was ATF Islamabad ..



Path-Finder said:


> The interesting thing to note is there are two variants of AMX Rifle in this picture, 5.56 and 7.62x39!



These guys are nicely armed.. Here is sbother - taken from SSU promo vid;

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## Kompromat

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> That was ATF Islamabad ..
> 
> 
> 
> These guys are nicely armed.. Here is sbother - taken from SSU promo vid;
> 
> View attachment 241814



you have the video?


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

Horus said:


> you have the video?







Enjoy!

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## Zarvan

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Enjoy!


Problem in Sindh is these guys are becoming Zardari personal police rather than a good counter terrorism unit.


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## Amaa'n

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> That was ATF Islamabad ..
> 
> View attachment 241814


but that SCAR & 416 belonged to US Instructors

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## Zarvan

balixd said:


> but that SCAR & 416 belonged to US Instructors


Sir what I hope is at least two Guns pass tests one of them should be and must be MPT-76 and it should perform at least 3 times better than G3 in all conditions.


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## AUz

Joint Production/Transfer of technology contract with Turkey for MPT-76 (A Pakistanized version specific to the need and demands of Pakistan Army).


----------



## Zarvan

kaonalpha said:


> zarvan it will take at least a year or so . So i would recommend you sit back relax and when me or any one else gets a fair idea we will share it with you.
> 
> Cheers.







@kaonalpha @Icarus @Xeric Can you guys at least suggest senior leadership in Army to test this new Indonesian Gun also if proves to be good can be another easy option along with MPT-76 @Horus @Sulman Badshah @Wolfhound @Indos @Jakartans@PkDef @madooxno9 @madokafc @Reashot Xigwin @AUz @balixd @anas_nurhafidz @MarveL @pr1v4t33r


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## kaonalpha

If was in the recommending position I would have though my opinion was considered and implemented in the logistics area. Plus the seniors take your suggestion , take a look at itand then simply slide it into a paper shredder. It's the high ego that prevents them from listening to little guy. There are very few seniors who would encourage you to give your opinion. Any how wait and see.




Zarvan said:


> View attachment 241982
> 
> @kaonalpha @Icarus @Xeric Can you guys at least suggest senior leadership in Army to test this new Indonesian Gun also if proves to be good can be another easy option along with MPT-76 @Horus @Sulman Badshah @Wolfhound @Indos @Jakartans@PkDef @madooxno9 @madokafc @Reashot Xigwin @AUz @balixd @anas_nurhafidz @MarveL @pr1v4t33r

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## Zarvan

kaonalpha said:


> If was in the recommending position I would have though my opinion was considered and implemented in the logistics area. Plus the seniors take your suggestion , take a look at itand then simply slide it into a paper shredder. It's the high ego that prevents them from listening to little guy. There are very few seniors who would encourage you to give your opinion. Any how wait and see.


But at least you can try


----------



## Pak_Track

Rafay Jamil said:


> I think he was talking about the munition


POF makes 5.56, it's listed on their website.
...::akistan Ordnance Factories:::...


----------



## Zarvan

*Pindad unveils new assault rifle prototype SSx 7.62mm at IndoDefence 2014*
At IndoDefence 2014 in Jakarta, Indonesia-based company Pindad is increasing its assault rifles range by officially showing for the first time a new SS variant, the SSx 7.62mm. This rifle is part of PT Pindad focus and long effort to develop its own weapon with a bigger caliber to fulfil new challenges as required by its users.



*Pindad SSx 7.62 mm assault rifle prototype at IndoDefence 2014*

PT Pindad has initally successfully produced its series of assault rifles e.g. SS1 and SS2 with 5.56 mm caliber. This new prototype is a commitment of PT Pindad management to support both of its domestic end-users within Indonesian National Armed Forces as well as global customer demand.


The SSx is a 7.62x51 mm caliber gun, of which barrel measures 510 mm. It can be used with three firing modes: single shot, full automatic and safe modes. The SSx uses MU 2 Tj ammunition, allowing an effective range of 950m. The future Pindad's 7.62 mm assault rifle has optical sight and flip up sight, and can be used with a tripod.

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## Super Falcon

Zarvan said:


> *Pindad unveils new assault rifle prototype SSx 7.62mm at IndoDefence 2014*
> At IndoDefence 2014 in Jakarta, Indonesia-based company Pindad is increasing its assault rifles range by officially showing for the first time a new SS variant, the SSx 7.62mm. This rifle is part of PT Pindad focus and long effort to develop its own weapon with a bigger caliber to fulfil new challenges as required by its users.
> 
> 
> 
> *Pindad SSx 7.62 mm assault rifle prototype at IndoDefence 2014*
> 
> PT Pindad has initally successfully produced its series of assault rifles e.g. SS1 and SS2 with 5.56 mm caliber. This new prototype is a commitment of PT Pindad management to support both of its domestic end-users within Indonesian National Armed Forces as well as global customer demand.
> 
> 
> The SSx is a 7.62x51 mm caliber gun, of which barrel measures 510 mm. It can be used with three firing modes: single shot, full automatic and safe modes. The SSx uses MU 2 Tj ammunition, allowing an effective range of 950m. The future Pindad's 7.62 mm assault rifle has optical sight and flip up sight, and can be used with a tripod.


Looks copy og G 3 which we r replacing

Ssu is bullshit and for comon people security sindh govt gave old rusted AK 47 which dont fire some times what a hell of people in sindh govt


----------



## Zarvan

Super Falcon said:


> Looks copy og G 3 which we r replacing
> 
> Ssu is bullshit and for comon people security sindh govt gave old rusted AK 47 which dont fire some times what a hell of people in sindh govt


Can't say would be better we should give it a try to. It can be another cost effective alternate for us along with MPT-76 @Sulman Badshah


----------



## Sine Nomine

kaonalpha said:


> If was in the recommending position I would have though my opinion was considered and implemented in the logistics area. Plus the seniors take your suggestion , take a look at itand then simply slide it into a paper shredder. It's the high ego that prevents them from listening to little guy. There are very few seniors who would encourage you to give your opinion. Any how wait and see.


These egos have done more damaged to us then our enemies.If we overcome this attitude then we have 100% Professional Army.

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## Sulman Badshah

Zarvan said:


> Can't say would be better we should give it a try to. It can be another cost effective alternate for us along with MPT-76 @Sulman Badshah


yes it looks good and using same ammo as MPT76 ...

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## Zarvan

Sulman Badshah said:


> yes it looks good and using same ammo as MPT76 ...


That is why I requested you to do something on FB.

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## Zarvan

@Indos I asked Indonesian members but got no reply so I am asking you can you post details of this new and all the Gun which are made in Indonesia all details are needed


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## Indos

Zarvan said:


> @Indos I asked Indonesian members but got no reply so I am asking you can you post details of this new and all the Gun which are made in Indonesia all details are needed



whole guns or just this one that you have posted..?


----------



## Zarvan

Indos said:


> whole guns or just this one that you have posted..?


Specially this one but information of all Guns are also needed but specially this one also other Guns


----------



## Indos

Zarvan said:


> Specially this one but information of all Guns are also needed but specially this one also other Guns



This is the official website

PT. Pindad (Persero) - Senjata


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## Zarvan

Indos said:


> This is the official website
> 
> PT. Pindad (Persero) - Senjata


It has no info on SSX


----------



## Indos

Zarvan said:


> It has no info on SSX



Yup, SSX is the newest one, I think they will add it as soon as they get certification on this weapon from our armed forces, since it is still being tested by our Armed Force.

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## Zarvan

Indos said:


> Yup, SSX is the newest one, I think they will add it as soon as they get certification on this weapon from our armed forces, since it is still being tested by our Armed Force.


How long it will take to complete tests and if any Indonesian members here have access to powerful people in Indonesian Government sitting in top positions they should ask them to lobby for this Gun and ask Pakistan to at least test this one also. If it passes tests you can earn money and reputation for your industry and we have good cost effective Gun @Indos @Jakartans@PkDef @anas_nurhafidz @madokafc @MarveL

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## Indos

Zarvan said:


> How long it will take to complete tests and if any Indonesian members here have access to powerful people in Indonesian Government sitting in top positions they should ask them to lobby for this Gun and ask Pakistan to at least test this one also. If it passes tests you can earn money and reputation for your industry and we have good cost effective Gun



This year will be completed inshaALLAH. It is Pindad estimation.

Man our Pindad guns has become famous after we won AASAM Military championship in Australia since 2008 until this year. I believe we will promote all of the guns and including this new one also.

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## Zarvan

Indos said:


> This year will be completed inshaALLAH. It is Pindad estimation.
> 
> Man our Pindad guns has become famous after we won AASAM Military championship in Australia since 2008 until this year. I believe we will promote all of the guns and including this new one also.


Still what I have asked you to do is please do it you should lobby about this new Gun contact Pakistani embassy and Military attache in our embassy ask senior leadership to do it if you have access because Pakistan is looking for new Gun with same caliber which this Gun has


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## Path-Finder

Indos said:


> This year will be completed inshaALLAH. It is Pindad estimation.
> 
> Man our Pindad guns has become famous after we won AASAM Military championship in Australia since 2008 until this year. I believe we will promote all of the guns and including this new one also.



It looks like it is based on AR-10? 
Yes no doubt Indonesia has a kick *** military!

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## Indos

Zarvan said:


> Still what I have asked you to do is please do it you should lobby about this new Gun contact Pakistani embassy and Military attache in our embassy ask senior leadership to do it if you have access because Pakistan is looking for new Gun with same caliber which this Gun has



I would like to be a broker between the two... 

Pindad also will give license if the weapon buying is large


----------



## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Still what I have asked you to do is please do it you should lobby about this new Gun contact Pakistani embassy and Military attache in our embassy ask senior leadership to do it if you have access because Pakistan is looking for new Gun with same caliber which this Gun has


take it easy cuzz! you are little persistant


----------



## niaz

Selection of an assault rifle is a momentous decision for the army planners of any country. It is not only extremely expensive but also has serious impact on the fighting ability of the country’s defence forces. Since a soldier’s life depends on it, before discussing merits & demerits on any weapon, let first agree on what qualities assault rifle should have:

1. It must be reliable, have a decent rate of fire and accurate within visual range (say about 100 meters) without telescopic sight.

2. It should be effective up at least to about 300 meters and have stopping power (one hit should incapacitate).

3. Should be cheap to produce, have a long useful life, light weight, easy to handle and not require a lot of training.

Pakistan Army has been using G-3 & Ak-47 for the last 30 -40 years or so. Army jawans have grown up with these rifles and can operate the same in their sleep. Therefore, in addition to the above, any new assault rifle must be a significant improvement on the existing weapons else there is no need to replace.

Carrying additional ammunition thru smaller calibre and also accuracy over longer distances is a definite advantage. One would also like to have day & night sights and the ability to fire multi calibre rounds. However, do these advantages enhance fighting ability of the army jawan to the extent that justifies the additional cost & expense involved in the introduction of a new assault rifle? Remember we might need about one million rifles. Assuming it costs the same as a civilian rifle (at least $1,000/-); it means upward of $1- billion!

I am not discounting the excellent rifles produced by FN Herstal of Belgium. But, in my humble opinion, since POF is already producing Heckler & Koch G-3 and also Ak-47 is various forms; one of the models linked to these rifles would probably be more cost effective.

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## Zarvan

Indos said:


> I would like to be a broker between the two...
> 
> Pindad also will give license if the weapon buying is large


Yes exactly order is not large it's is massive we have around more than 1 million Army and Para Military combined and we may soon increase them and also increase more marines Sir you can understand How big this can be so at least this Gun should be tested and hope for the best

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## Super Falcon

Zarvan said:


> Can't say would be better we should give it a try to. It can be another cost effective alternate for us along with MPT-76 @Sulman Badshah


Yaaar plz for good sake get hell out of cost effective these guns which we buy are not buying on daily basis its once in 3 to 4 decades we need a gun which can serve us well till those years if we think cost effective buy ww 2 thompson plz get rid of cheap mindset

Sasti cheez royee bar bar

So guns which look like G 3 no matter how good dont even try we but TOT for the guns we can make them at POF with cost effective so plz lose the cheap mindset


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## Zarvan

Super Falcon said:


> Yaaar plz for good sake get hell out of cost effective these guns which we buy are not buying on daily basis its once in 3 to 4 decades we need a gun which can serve us well till those years if we think cost effective buy ww 2 thompson plz get rid of cheap mindset
> 
> Sasti cheez royee bar bar
> 
> So guns which look like G 3 no matter how good dont even try we but TOT for the guns we can make them at POF with cost effective so plz lose the cheap mindset


Still with current budget we have to look for cost effective solution


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## Super Falcon

Zarvan said:


> Still with current budget we have to look for cost effective solution


Bhai once u got TOT prices wont matter now price is in ur hands and with TOT u can sell to others there is budget to buy best HK 417 is good for army

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## Super Falcon

Looks like zarvan and me have a good chemistry understanding each other thanx dear respectfull friend zarvan

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## DESERT FIGHTER

@balixd. @Icarus. @Rashid Mahmood @niaz. @Horus. 


No decision on the final contenders etx... But a board has been formed to select the suitable (replacement) rifle for the military... Say bye bye to G-3s for good this time..

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## Irfan Baloch

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> @balixd. @Icarus. @Rashid Mahmood @niaz. @Horus.
> 
> 
> No decision on the final contenders etx... But a board has been formed to select the suitable (replacement) rifle for the military... Say bye bye to G-3s for good this time..



G3 is battle rifle.. are we doing away with this category completely? will assault rifle fill it then?

no hint about *likely *contender either?
Eastern European i.e. AK-47 family weapons or European ? German/ Belgian? or American?

again I hope people dont start posting carbines and sub machine guns and know the difference



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> I'd go for the Turkish (if it passes tests).. Reason ... It would be more affordable than getting from our old HK buddies... Besides Turkiye is out trusted brotherly nation... Good to see the increasing defence cooperation with a em..
> 
> A lot of great things coming out of it!
> 
> 
> Weate talkin about equipping over a million men (including Para mil) .. So whatever they end up with "finally" it's going to come with ToT or licsense manufacturing.


need an all weather all climate, height weapon. whatever the initial cost. in the longer run a reliable and robust weapon will save lives, missions and money as well

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Irfan Baloch said:


> G3 is battle rifle.. are we doing away with this category completely? will assault rifle fill it then?
> 
> no hint about *likely *contender either?
> Eastern European i.e. AK-47 family weapons or European ? German/ Belgian? or American?
> 
> again I hope people dont start posting carbines and sub machine guns and know the difference
> 
> 
> need an all weather all climate, height weapon. whatever the initial cost. in the longer run a reliable and robust weapon will save lives, missions and money as well



Yes sir ... They are replacing with another "battle rifle"... I'm not sure about the contenders (will confirm later)... But notifications reguarding the replacement have been issued and a board has been formed for the selection purpose... It will probably take some time before we actually choose and produce a rifle.. The G3 is going out of business ...

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## Irfan Baloch

cabatli_53 said:


> First order: 20,000 MPT-76
> Worth: 80 million TL
> ---------------------------------------
> One MPT-76: 4000TL (1490 $)
> 
> No other Western state can produce such a quality and effective rifle in that price. In trials, All possibilities are checked in mud, sand, rainy and icy conditions and This rifle performed perfect without meeting any single problem.


how has it performed at 15k ft + heights and in subzero conditions? this is my interest. G3 lets us down in the snow and icy conditions. if the assumptions of members are correct then going by your description we might be having this one



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Yes sir ... They are replacing with another "battle rifle"... I'm not sure about the contenders (will confirm later)... But notifications reguarding the replacement have been issued and a board has been formed for the selection purpose... It will probably take some time before we actually choose and produce a rifle.. The G3 is going out of business ...


people fighting on the heights and in sub zero conditions wont miss it. because they hardly/ never get to use it.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Irfan Baloch said:


> how has it performed at 15k ft + heights and in subzero conditions? this is my interest. G3 lets us down in the snow and icy conditions. if the assumptions of members are correct then going by your description we might be having this one
> 
> 
> people fighting on the heights and in sub zero conditions wont miss it. because they hardly/ never get to use it.




Yeah it was prone to jamming in Siachin .. And the troops had to do with AKs.

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## Yousafzai_M

Excuse my ignorance but why can't POF build a rifle of our own design?


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## Zarvan

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Yes sir ... They are replacing with another "battle rifle"... I'm not sure about the contenders (will confirm later)... But notifications reguarding the replacement have been issued and a board has been formed for the selection purpose... It will probably take some time before we actually choose and produce a rifle.. The G3 is going out of business ...


Finally another confirmation but can you at least find out which 5 or 6 Guns they would test.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Zarvan said:


> Finally another confirmation but can you at least find out which 5 or 6 Guns they would test.


Il try ..

P.S; I doubt there would be AK variants .. As AK's are already in use and even POF made AKs were dropped in favour of imports due to manufacturing cost being higher than importing em... Also AK is considered a SMG and not a battle rifle by the Pak Army.... Hence no chance for AK's...

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## cabatli_53

Irfan Baloch said:


> how has it performed at 15k ft + heights and in subzero conditions? this is my interest. G3 lets us down in the snow and icy conditions. if the assumptions of members are correct then going by your description we might be having this one
> 
> 
> people fighting on the heights and in sub zero conditions wont miss it. because they hardly/ never get to use it.




-Turkey's North-East platons Kars-Ardahan is the coldest place of region and Winter tempreture reaches -45 degrees. It is the same place that 60000 Turkish soldiers had froozen in Allah-u Ekber mountains in WW1. 
-Turkey's South-East and Center Anatolia region is the hottest place of region that summer tempreture reaches around 45-50 celcius degrees.
-Heights of this country is changing from 0 to 5137 meters.

In this circumstances, The rifle developed have to work all those conditions without meeting any problem and All field trials showed that MPT is a perfect rifle that meet all those requirements of Army. You can see the results in trial videos as well.

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## That Guy

Yousafzai_M said:


> Excuse my ignorance but why can't POF build a rifle of our own design?


Time and money. POF has been looking for funding for years, but it has never been able to secure it.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

cabatli_53 said:


> -Turkey's North-East platons Kars-Ardahan is the coldest place of region and Winter tempreture reaches -45 degrees. It is the same place that 60000 Turkish soldiers had froozen in Allah-u Ekber mountains in WW1.
> -Turkey's South-East and Center Anatolia region is the hottest place of region that summer tempreture reaches around 45-50 celcius degrees.
> -Heights of this country is changing from 0 to 5137 meters.
> 
> In this circumstances, The rifle developed have to work all those conditions without meeting any problem and All field trials showed that MPT is a perfect rifle that meet all those requirements of Army. You can see the results in trial videos as well.


In siachin temperature plummets to -70 .. It's 6700 meters. (And no im not talking about "above sea level")... In deserts of sindh and rocky terrain of Balochistab it varies from 52-57C in summers... 2 extremes..



cabatli_53 said:


> -Turkey's North-East platons Kars-Ardahan is the coldest place of region and Winter tempreture reaches -45 degrees. It is the same place that 60000 Turkish soldiers had froozen in Allah-u Ekber mountains in WW1.
> -Turkey's South-East and Center Anatolia region is the hottest place of region that summer tempreture reaches around 45-50 celcius degrees.
> -Heights of this country is changing from 0 to 5137 meters.
> 
> In this circumstances, The rifle developed have to work all those conditions without meeting any problem and All field trials showed that MPT is a perfect rifle that meet all those requirements of Army. You can see the results in trial videos as well.


In siachin temperature plummets to -70 .. It's 6700 meters. (And no im not talking about "above sea level")... In deserts of sindh and rocky terrain of Balochistan it varies from 52-57C in summers... 2 extremes..



cabatli_53 said:


> -Turkey's North-East platons Kars-Ardahan is the coldest place of region and Winter tempreture reaches -45 degrees. It is the same place that 60000 Turkish soldiers had froozen in Allah-u Ekber mountains in WW1.
> -Turkey's South-East and Center Anatolia region is the hottest place of region that summer tempreture reaches around 45-50 celcius degrees.
> -Heights of this country is changing from 0 to 5137 meters.
> 
> In this circumstances, The rifle developed have to work all those conditions without meeting any problem and All field trials showed that MPT is a perfect rifle that meet all those requirements of Army. You can see the results in trial videos as well.





cabatli_53 said:


> -Turkey's North-East platons Kars-Ardahan is the coldest place of region and Winter tempreture reaches -45 degrees. It is the same place that 60000 Turkish soldiers had froozen in Allah-u Ekber mountains in WW1.
> -Turkey's South-East and Center Anatolia region is the hottest place of region that summer tempreture reaches around 45-50 celcius degrees.
> -Heights of this country is changing from 0 to 5137 meters.
> 
> In this circumstances, The rifle developed have to work all those conditions without meeting any problem and All field trials showed that MPT is a perfect rifle that meet all those requirements of Army. You can see the results in trial videos as well.


In siachin temperature plummets to over -70.. It's over 6700 Meters - a glacier....

In Desert if Sindh and parts of Balochistan average temperature in summers in around 57c..

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## Amaa'n

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> @balixd. @Icarus. @Rashid Mahmood @niaz. @Horus.
> 
> 
> No decision on the final contenders etx... But a board has been formed to select the suitable (replacement) rifle for the military... Say bye bye to G-3s for good this time..


when we said the same in start of this thread, no body believed us

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## DESERT FIGHTER

balixd said:


> when we said the same in start of this thread, no body believed us


When? You weren't convinced yourself lol.



balixd said:


> when we said the same in start of this thread, no body believed us


When? You weren't convinced yourself lol.


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## Amaa'n

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> When? You weren't convinced yourself lol.
> 
> 
> When? You weren't convinced yourself lol.


somewhere in the middle of the thread....I was convinced myself dude, but never wanted to argue over it....I had it confirmed, the notification you are talking about, me and other member had seen it 2 weeks ago....
anyhow, mitti pao

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## Tipu7

Sir a question
What about MG3........?

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## That Guy

Tipu7 said:


> Sir a question
> What about MG3........?



The MG3 is a general purpose machine gun, not the same thing as an assault rifle or battle rifle.

Or do you mean a replacement for the POF MG3? If that's the case, I doubt that PA will look for a replacement anytime soon. Replace an assault rifle is hard and expensive enough as it is, now were getting rumors of replacing the battle rifle as well.

The MG3 is probably not on the chopping block just yet.

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## Zarvan

balixd said:


> somewhere in the middle of the thread....I was convinced myself dude, but never wanted to argue over it....I had it confirmed, the notification you are talking about, me and other member had seen it 2 weeks ago....
> anyhow, mitti pao


Sir I believe you Sir ? And Sir I and few members have heard that Pakistan has been testing two prototypes of AK-2. In fact one member was told it is under test since 2013. Also we were told same thing that the Tank looks a lot like Altay and also German Leopard. Can you get some latest news on current status of it ?


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## cabatli_53

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> In siachin temperature plummets to -70 .. It's 6700 meters. (And no im not talking about "above sea level")... In deserts of sindh and rocky terrain of Balochistab it varies from 52-57C in summers... 2 extremes..
> 
> 
> In siachin temperature plummets to -70 .. It's 6700 meters. (And no im not talking about "above sea level")... In deserts of sindh and rocky terrain of Balochistan it varies from 52-57C in summers... 2 extremes..
> 
> 
> 
> In siachin temperature plummets to over -70.. It's over 6700 Meters - a glacier....
> 
> In Desert if Sindh and parts of Balochistan average temperature in summers in around 57c..




I didn't know You were looking for a turbojet engine instead of a rifle that will be affected by athmosperic pressure and +/- O2 weather conditions. Otherwise, I am talking about -40/+45/50 but You are telling me -70 or +60 degrees as If a soldier can survive in such an extreme weather conditions, let along fighting of a soldier handling a rifle against enemy in mentioned celcius. Hope you will find what you are looking for brothers...

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## Neptune

From first batch delivery of MPT-76, in service of JÖAK (Gendarmerie Special Public Security Command, HRT) with Avcı 1x-4x optic sight.

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## Neutron

What are the top characteristics we must be looking for selection of assault rifle.

1. Light weight
2. Accurate fire
3. Range 300 to 700m 
4. Durability


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## Path-Finder

Neptune said:


> From first batch delivery of MPT-76, in service of JÖAK (Gendarmerie Special Public Security Command, HRT) with Avcı 1x-4x optic sight.



does Avcı 1x-4x optic sight share any characteristics with Elcan Specter?


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## Fenrir

Is Pakistan opting to retain the 7.62 or are they looking to transition to a smaller round?

If they're looking to retain the 7.62 x 51, has any consideration been given to the SCAR-H?

*SCAR-H Mk 17 Mod 0*











*Sniper Support Rifle (SSR) Mk 20 Mod 0*











If anyone's wondering about their environmental controls, users range from cold climates such as Finland to the high altitudes of Chile and Peru - Pakistan's SSU also uses it. Concerns about its performance in cold, hot or at altitude aren't warranted, this rifle performs well in all categories.

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## Neptune

Path-Finder said:


> does Avcı 1x-4x optic sight share any characteristics with Elcan Specter?



Sorry I don't know. I am no expert on this.


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## Zarvan

Technogaianist said:


> Is Pakistan opting to retain the 7.62 or are they looking to transition to a smaller round?
> 
> If they're looking to retain the 7.62 x 51, has any consideration been given to the SCAR-H?
> 
> *SCAR-H Mk 17 Mod 0*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Sniper Support Rifle (SSR) Mk 20 Mod 0*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If anyone's wondering about their environmental controls, users range from cold climates such as Finland to the high altitudes of Chile and Peru - Pakistan's SSU also uses it. Concerns about its performance in cold, hot or at altitude aren't warranted, this rifle performs well in all categories.


FN SCAR will be tested for sure



Neptune said:


> From first batch delivery of MPT-76, in service of JÖAK (Gendarmerie Special Public Security Command, HRT) with Avcı 1x-4x optic sight.


Is the guy carrying DMR version ?

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## Neptune

Zarvan said:


> FN SCAR will be tested for sure
> 
> 
> Is the guy carrying DMR version ?



Nope..battle rifle variant. They might opt for it in different roles if JÖAK likes it.


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## Armstrong

Technogaianist said:


> Is Pakistan opting to retain the 7.62 or are they looking to transition to a smaller round?
> 
> If they're looking to retain the 7.62 x 51, has any consideration been given to the SCAR-H?
> 
> *SCAR-H Mk 17 Mod 0*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Sniper Support Rifle (SSR) Mk 20 Mod 0*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If anyone's wondering about their environmental controls, users range from cold climates such as Finland to the high altitudes of Chile and Peru - Pakistan's SSU also uses it. Concerns about its performance in cold, hot or at altitude aren't warranted, this rifle performs well in all categories.



Oh I am an expert marksmen with SCAR H in Sniper 2 Ghost Recon !  

But I think we most probably will be priced out of it....equipping an Army of nearly 1.3 million active soldiers isn't cheap !

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## Fenrir

Armstrong said:


> But I think we most probably will be priced out of it....equipping an Army of nearly 1.3 million active soldiers isn't cheap !




Yup, that's probably going to be the biggest problem with replacing the G3. I don't know the SCAR-H's cost, but Norway's HK417 cost around $8500 for the gun alone. its "goodies" really jack up the price - to around $11500, especially the optic. It's really, really expensive, but affordable for Norway is its only used as a Designated Marksman Weapon - the HK416N 16.5" had a per unit cost of $2600 for the Norwegian Armed Forces and is equipped military wide. It lacks most attachments, but does feature low-power optics, laser targeting modules and suppressors military wide (as needed).

Here's the "goodies" that increase the price of our 417s:

_HK417 20" Barrel, SA only.......2800 EUR - *this is the cost of the civilian MR308, not the cost of a militarized HK417!!!*_
_Schmidt & Bender PMII 3-12x50/LP.......2800 EUR_
_B&T Rotex III Rifle Suppressor........900 EUR_
_Harris Bipod.......150 EUR_
_20 round and 10 round mags........90 EUR/each_
_Rear BUIS.........100-200 EUR_
_Sling........150 EUR (complete kit with front and rear adapter)_
_Cleaning Kit.......XXX EUR_
_Brass catcher.........400 EUR_
_Carrying Case (PeliCase)_

Norway is also using an accurized version, with the AGR, and a longer front rail_ - _military deals also contain training, tools, spares, etc. that are simply counted in the single unit prices_,_ these cost neglect discounts for bulk purchases that are afforded to military users.

This is one of ours:

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## Armstrong

Technogaianist said:


> Yup, that's probably going to be the biggest problem with replacing the G3. I don't know the SCAR-H's cost, but Norway's HK417 cost around $8500 for the gun alone. its "goodies" really jack up the price - to around $11500, especially the optic. It's really, really expensive, but affordable for Norway is its only used as a Designated Marksman Weapon - the HK416N 16.5" had a per unit cost of $2600 for the Norwegian Armed Forces and is equipped military wide.
> 
> Here's the "goodies" that increase the price of our 417s:
> 
> _HK417 20" Barrel, SA only.......2800 EUR - *this is the civilian cost, not the cost of a militarized rifle!!*!_
> _Schmidt & Bender PMII 3-12x50/LP.......2800 EUR_
> _B&T Rotex III Rifle Suppressor........900 EUR_
> _Harris Bipod.......150 EUR_
> _20 round and 10 round mags........90 EUR/each_
> _Rear BUIS.........100-200 EUR_
> _Sling........150 EUR (complete kit with front and rear adapter)_
> _Cleaning Kit.......XXX EUR_
> _Brass catcher.........400 EUR_
> _Carrying Case (PeliCase)_
> 
> 
> Norway is also using an accurized version, with the AGR, and a longer front rail_ - _military deals also contain training, tools, spares, etc. that are simply counted in the single unit prices_,_ these cost neglect discounts for bulk purchases that are afforded to military users



Ma'am you do realize that most of it is gibberish to me; I am a finance guy how the heck would I know what a Harris Bipod or a Brass Catcher is ? 

But the finance guy in me tells me that 'cause most NATO countries (including Norway) have smaller armies and well established economies you guys can buy the best of the best out there....we'd probably be priced out 'cause we're the what 7th largest Army in the world funded by the 21st largest economy (PPP) in the world - Simple costing works against us !

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## Fenrir

Armstrong said:


> We'd probably be priced out 'cause we're the what 7th largest Army



That's the price you pay for wanting a larger caliber weapon military wide, rather than in designated roles such as DMR or SSR. Equipping your whole military with a 7.62 caliber rifle isn't going to be cheap, it's going to be about 3 times more expensive than using the comparable 5.56 caliber weapon - as noted in the cost discrepancy between the militarized HK416 and HK417.

Perhaps Pakistan should rethink its military structure and tactics? Perhaps not. But if this is the course Pakistan is going, retaining a 7.62 militarized rifle over the adoption of a smaller round, it's not going to be cheap to implement military wide - hence why most militaries opted for the under-performing (at distances greater than 400m) 5.56 cartridge, their rifles tend to cost less and require less maintenance (it's also a tactical concern as many militaries operate in more urban environments where the small cartridge performs nicely).



Armstrong said:


> (PPP)



And being a finance guy you should know that PPP is worthless in international trade as prices aren't denominated in national selling prices or the cost of production in the buying nation, they are denominated in the negotiation between what the buyer and seller are willing to part with.

I can't see FN accepting Pakistan's production price as the basis for its selling cost.



Armstrong said:


> Ma'am you do realize that most of it is gibberish to me;



It's going to be gibberish to most people, especially those without military service. I know you're not this ignorant, but I'll explain anyways.

Bipod - the legs on the front that stabilize the rifle






Brass catcher - a module that collects spend ammo casings.






Oh, and sorry for being so serious, I get like this when I'm bored. Friday night and I've nothing to do!

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## Gufi

Technogaianist said:


> Yup, that's probably going to be the biggest problem with replacing the G3.


The number of guns required would be too costly plus our requirement for transfer of technology to be able to build them in our factories would be sticking points from our side. Otherwise this would be an excellent choice with the number of attachments available and the ruggedness of the gun.

@Technogaianist just noticed, congrats on the professional tag...

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## Armstrong

Technogaianist said:


> That's the price you pay for wanting a larger caliber weapon military wide, rather than in designated roles such as DM or SSR. Equipping your whole military with a 7.62 caliber rifle isn't going to be cheap, it's going to be about 3 times more expensive than using the comparable 5.56 caliber weapon - as noted in the cost discrepancy between the militarized HK416 and HK417.
> 
> Perhaps Pakistan should rethink its military structure and tactics? Perhaps not. But if this is the course Pakistan is going, retaining a 7.62 militarized rifle, it's not going to be cheap to implement military wide - hence why most militaries opted for the under-performing (at distances greater than 400m) 5.56 cartridge, their rifles tend to cost less and require less maintenance.



The two arguments I've seen floated on this forum many times is that Pakistan has a lot of....a LOT...of 7.62 mm ammo in reserve so there is an opportunity cost over there to be paid and that the Army isn't impressed with the 5.56 mm's lack of stopping power - Dunno whether thats true or not but thats what I've read quite a few people argue quite a few times. 



Technogaianist said:


> And being a finance guy you should know that PPP is worthless in international trade as prices are denominated in national selling prices, they are denominated in the negotiation between what the buyer and seller are willing to part with.
> 
> I can't see FN accepting Pakistan's production price as the basis for its selling cost.



I only mentioned PPP 'cause we're the 21st largest economy as per PPP while the 40th something in nominal terms !  

You just have to rub it in....!  



Technogaianist said:


> It's going to be gibberish to most people, especially those without military service. I know you're not this ignorant, but I'll explain anyways.
> 
> Bipod - the legs on the front that stabilize the rifle
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Brass catcher - a module that collects spend ammo casings.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, and sorry for being so serious, I get like this when I'm bored. Friday night and I've nothing to do!



I've seen the bipod thing in some of Pakistan Army's pictures but thats with those machine type things not battle rifles so I thought maybe it was something else ! 

Friday night and nothing to do ?  

Dinner anyone...?

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## Irfan Baloch

Yousafzai_M said:


> Excuse my ignorance but why can't POF build a rifle of our own design?


valid question.
it does produce some clones and some under licence but there are market leaders that offer the advantage that POF cant offer at the moment


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## Fenrir

Gufi said:


> @Technogaianist just noticed, congrats on the professional tag...



Thanks. But offer your appreciation to Armstrong, his lobbying had an important role to play too. I'll try my best to offer high quality info regarding military "stuff," but mostly I'll be post pics since I've a short attention span.

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## Gufi

Technogaianist said:


> to Armstrong


@Armstrong thank you, your highness.

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## Armstrong

Gufi said:


> @Armstrong thank you, your highness.



What can I say...I am well-connected ! 



Irfan Baloch said:


> valid question.
> it does produce some clones and some under licence but there are market leaders that offer the advantage that POF cant offer at the moment



Yaar waisee seriously Irfan Bhai, we can build a Nuke but we can't manage to build a Rifle ! 

Is it apathy or are we really lacking in some areas ?

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## Fenrir

Armstrong said:


> Army isn't impressed with the 5.56 mm's lack of stopping power - Dunno whether thats true or not but thats what I've read quite a few people argue quite a few times.



Greater than about 400 meters and the 5.56 loses a lot of stopping power, it's a valid concern that the US military is noticing too - the USMC is transitioning from the M16A4 to the M4 because the greater range of the M16A4 is nearly useless, so maybe Pakistan would be interested in some surplus M16s?

Marine brass endorses infantry plan to ditch M16 for M4



Armstrong said:


> I've seen the bipod thing in some of Pakistan Army's pictures but thats with those machine type things not battle rifles so I thought maybe it was something else !



I mentioned that perhaps Pakistan could opt for a shift in its tactics to better support the use of smaller calibers or justify the use of larger ones, but on a smaller scale (squad level sniper)- the bipod is used on battle rifles or designated marksman weapons, which is how the HK417 is used in Western militaries including the Forsvaret - if Pakistan is going to use the HK417 as an assault rifle it's an outlier.

The SCAR-H is better suited for assault duties though.



Armstrong said:


> Friday night and nothing to do ?
> 
> Dinner anyone...?



No. It's 9:30, I'm bored and have already eaten. I don't know, maybe I'll go downtown for a while.

Any-who, I'll see you later.

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## RAMPAGE

cabatli_53 said:


> First order: 20,000 MPT-76
> Worth: 80 million TL
> ---------------------------------------
> One MPT-76: 4000TL (1490 $)
> 
> No other Western state can produce such a quality and effective rifle in that price. In trials, All possibilities are checked in mud, sand, rainy and icy conditions and This rifle performed perfect without meeting any single problem.


You guys adopting the 7.62 variant?


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## Irfan Baloch

cabatli_53 said:


> I didn't know You were looking for a turbojet engine instead of a rifle that will be affected by athmosperic pressure and +/- O2 weather conditions. Otherwise, I am talking about -40/+45/50 but You are telling me -70 or +60 degrees as If a soldier can survive in such an extreme weather conditions, let along fighting of a soldier handling a rifle against enemy in mentioned celcius. Hope you will find what you are looking for brothers...


sir he is not talking hogwash , our soldiers do live through these conditions round 12 months. summer is -40 and in winter it is -60. 98 % casualties are through weather and there are long term medical conditions to those who return back with without frostbite . the desert in the east and the west offer yet another set of challenge. its a diverse climate country.

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## Daneshmand

Irfan Baloch said:


> sir he is not talking hogwash , our soldiers do live through these conditions round 12 months. summer is -40 and in winter it is -60. 98 % casualties are through weather and there are long term medical conditions to those who return back with without frostbite . the desert in the east and the west offer yet another set of challenge. its a diverse climate country.



Just tell him about Siachen and Thar desert.

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## UkroTurk

Assault rifle should be in .223rem.!

But MPT76 is battle rifle.

I am Turkish but i want to say:.308win bad choice!!!!!!!

New war doctrine diffrerent from 1970s.
In the war not professionals persons ( even old peoples, womens and childs) how to use strong and hard caliber?
Also .308 has a bad accelaration in full auto mode.

And also ammo costs verry important. In the war, for a 1 year you need 1-2 billion ammo?? .308win : 2$, ; .223rem:1$!!!!!!!!!

Turkish rifle verry new production , it is early to trust to this gun.!!!


FN SCAR-L best choice.
CZ 805 Bren verry smart choice.

Differents of calibers.





Edit: .308 win very strong caliber, very high power in the rifle. Ballictic velocity and energy may broke the rifle, if rifle made by non quality materials.

Also this rifle is aliminium, Turkey has a few knowlegde of heat tratment.


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## Neptune

Armstrong said:


> Ma'am you do realize that most of it is gibberish to me; I am a finance guy how the heck would I know what a Harris Bipod or a Brass Catcher is ?
> 
> But the finance guy in me tells me that 'cause most NATO countries (including Norway) have smaller armies and well established economies you guys can buy the best of the best out there....we'd probably be priced out 'cause we're the what 7th largest Army in the world funded by the 21st largest economy (PPP) in the world - Simple costing works against us !



Finance ..its my second selection in line this year. Let's see.

Well Mr. Wolf of Lahore Street, a bipot in the military is primarily used to mount small arms on in ranging from assault rifles, DMRs to automatic grenade launchers to give a more accelerated, stable position for the shooter. It is specifically used by navies as well in counter-piracy operations and countering assymetric threats on the surface.

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## Irfan Baloch

Armstrong said:


> Yaar waisee seriously Irfan Bhai, we can build a Nuke but we can't manage to build a Rifle !
> 
> Is it apathy or are we really lacking in some areas ?


bit of both.
we are already doing much already from a fighter jet program to missile program , tank and APC program and what not. infantry weapons seem trivial but require a considerable setup cost and then there are already established platforms with proven record and agreeable costs. if we are to set aside cash for that then it will have to come out of some other funding within the military budget.
khawaja saad rafique or Abid Sher Ali wont let you have their jelabee fund for that purpose.

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## Neptune

RAMPAGE said:


> You guys adopting the 7.62 variant?



Yes..The infantry and all other combatant/battle support forces will use the 7.62 nato variant. However in long-term, the cavalry might opt for the 5.56 nato variant. Also if SF/SOF likes the 56, they might choose it over M4A1 and H&K.

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## Irfan Baloch

Daneshmand said:


> Just tell him about Siachen and Thar desert.




@cabatli_53 

Siachen Glacier - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Siachen Glacier lies immediately south of the great drainage divide that separates the Eurasian Plate from the Indian subcontinent in the extensively glaciated portion of the Karakoram sometimes called the "Third Pole". The glacier lies between the Saltoro Ridge immediately to the west and the main Karakoram range to the east. The Saltoro Ridge originates in the north from the Sia Kangri peak on the China border in the Karakoram range. The crest of the Saltoro Ridge's altitudes range from 5,450 to 7,720 m (17,880 to 25,330 feet). The major passes on this ridge are, from north to south, Sia La at 5,589 m (18,336 ft), Bilafond La at 5,450 m (17,880 ft), and Gyong La at 5,689 m (18,665 ft). The average winter snowfall is more than 1000 cm (35 ft) and temperatures can dip to −50 °C (−58 °F). Including all tributary glaciers, the Siachen Glacier system covers about 700 km2 (270 sq mi).

three are too many deserts to list
average tempature can range from 54 degrees in morning to near freezing at night.

List of deserts of Pakistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


so yea its a big undertaking for a rifle which performs well in all climates, heights and temperature , is easy to maintain and reliable all round.

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## RAMPAGE

Neptune said:


> Yes..The infantry and all other combatant/battle support forces will use the 7.62 nato variant. However in long-term, the cavalry might opt for the 5.56 nato variant. Also if SF/SOF likes the 56, they might choose it over M4A1 and H&K.


Well my vote is for your rifle provided that you guys come up with a better stock.

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## Neptune

RAMPAGE said:


> Well my vote is for your rifle provided that you guys come up with a better stock.



TBH, after Azerbaijan Pakistan is the only country which Turkish defense industry doesn't care about tranfer of critical technology, many people indicate that Pakistan had a role in development of SOM. Even it may have if we decide to go nuclear. If POF can sign an agreement with Undersecretariat of Defense Industries who has the full rights of MPT, it'd be awesome and I'd be happy to see Pakistan producing MPT-76 at home.
Having a rifle way better than anything Indian Infantry might have and also contributing to future development of Pakistan's own rifles up to STANAG qualifications.

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## Irfan Baloch

s


RAMPAGE said:


> Well my vote is for your rifle provided that you guys come up with a better stock.


stock is fine what is your issue? what would you have instead and why


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## Goenitz

Yaar waisee seriously Irfan Bhai, we can build a Nuke but we can't manage to build a Rifle ! 

Is it apathy or are we really lacking in some areas ?[/QUOTE]
Bombs, nukes etc must have a shelf life and they are used just once..
where as engines, rifles etc daily/frequent used items.. actually its all about material science/metallurgy..
similarly Chian and russian aircraft/automobile engine's have short lives just because ok lack of this science...
amd processors easily get hotter comapred to intel processors bcz impurities in amd processors are not controlled that efficiently...

@Armstrong

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## RAMPAGE

Neptune said:


> TBH, after Azerbaijan Pakistan is the only country which Turkish defense industry doesn't care about tranfer of critical technology, many people indicate that Pakistan had a role in development of SOM. Even it may have if we decide to go nuclear. If POF can sign an agreement with Undersecretariat of Defense Industries who has the full rights of MPT, it'd be awesome and I'd be happy to see Pakistan producing MPT-76 at home.
> Having a rifle way better than anything Indian Infantry might have and also contributing to future development of Pakistan's own rifles up to STANAG qualifications.


I wonder if there is something other than high prices of Turkish hardware that stops us from taking our cooperation to a greater level.



Irfan Baloch said:


> s
> 
> stock is fine what is your issue? what would you have instead and why


I would have a lighter stock. Don't like the feel of this one. 

But never mind my blabbering.

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## Neptune

RAMPAGE said:


> I wonder if there is something other than high prices of Turkish hardware that stops us from taking our cooperation to a greater level.
> 
> I would have a lighter stock. Don't like the feel of this one.
> 
> But never mind my blabbering.



I'd say the United States of America. Being in the alliance obviously Turkey was used by US at some sort for ME policy making. But nowadays it's because of us the Turks why Americans are so angry for their government arguing that we are using the US just like Israel to implement our doctrines over Syria and Iraq

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## Mughal-Prince

Neptune said:


> I'd say the United States of America. Being in the alliance obviously Turkey was used by US at some sort for ME policy making. But nowadays it's because of us the Turks why Americans are so angry for their government arguing that we are using the US just like Israel to implement our doctrines over Syria and Iraq



Well brother I am afraid that Syria and Iraq are going to be a proven misfire in not to distant future. We had our medicine and we are already countering this filth and I wish our Turk brothers would understand it even earlier than us. The one you people are using are even more brutal and absolute animals.

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## Zarvan

RAMPAGE said:


> I wonder if there is something other than high prices of Turkish hardware that stops us from taking our cooperation to a greater level.
> 
> I would have a lighter stock. Don't like the feel of this one.
> 
> But never mind my blabbering.


We have to take it to next level. We should buy the Milgem Corvette from Turkey as well as become partners with them in Frigate project. Turkey also has developed good IFV and AFV like Tulpur and Kaplan 20 and also Turkey is developing its own Fighter Jet now.

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## Neptune

Mughal-Prince said:


> Well brother I am afraid that Syria and Iraq are going to be a proven misfire in not to distant future. We had our medicine and we are already countering this filth and I wish our Turk brothers would understand it even earlier than us. The one you people are using are even more brutal and absolute animals.



Yeah...there's this rumor all over that a land incursion into Syria and Iraq targeting ISIL and PKK is yet to happen very soon. If true, that's a game changer in ME, but for a short period of time we'll have our economy fuvcked for that.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

balixd said:


> when we said the same in start of this thread, no body believed us


Neither did I .. I wasn't convinced myself ... The notifications are issues for even the smallest thing .. Finally yesterday i was sitting with... asked and he confirmed it..



cabatli_53 said:


> I didn't know You were looking for a turbojet engine instead of a rifle that will be affected by athmosperic pressure and +/- O2 weather conditions. Otherwise, I am talking about -40/+45/50 but You are telling me -70 or +60 degrees as If a soldier can survive in such an extreme weather conditions, let along fighting of a soldier handling a rifle against enemy in mentioned celcius. Hope you will find what you are looking for brothers...




Lol ... I'm not kidding brother ... Soldiers do survive in that hell hole .... It's the highest battlefield in the world... The G-3s and even Mg-3s were pretty much useless jamming and all.. Hence they mostly adopted AKs ..

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## Gufi

Neptune said:


> Yeah...there's this rumor all over that a land incursion into Syria and Iraq targeting ISIL and PKK is yet to happen very soon. If true, that's a game changer in ME, but for a short period of time we'll have our economy fuvcked for that.


If you take out Assad's regime also I am sure there will be some Middle Eastern regimes who would happily fund you


DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Neither did I .. I wasn't convinced myself ... The notifications are issues for even the smallest thing .. Finally yesterday i was sitting with my ... asked and he confirmed it..


Glad to know, confirmation from you means a lot to me... I have not left Lahore and certain conversations are not meant for the phone so I had no idea how authentic this news was...

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## Super Falcon

HK 416 should be picked becoz ot is multi caliber and reliable top notch ASSAULT Rifle in the world


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## Zarvan

Neptune said:


> From first batch delivery of MPT-76, in service of JÖAK (Gendarmerie Special Public Security Command, HRT) with Avcı 1x-4x optic sight.


The Gun in third picture looks different in shape as compares to Gun in first picture. Am I right ?
@Neptune @Hakan @cabatli_53 @Hurshid Celebi



Super Falcon said:


> HK 416 should be picked becoz ot is multi caliber and reliable top notch ASSAULT Rifle in the world


I think MPT-76 is also a Multi Caliber Gun and also has a DMR version


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## untitled

Super Falcon said:


> HK 416 should be picked becoz ot is multi caliber and reliable top notch ASSAULT Rifle in the world


Multi Calibre ? Why do you say that ?


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## Pak_Track

Zarvan said:


> The Gun in third picture looks different in shape as compares to Gun in first picture. Am I right ?
> @Neptune @Hakan @cabatli_53 @Hurshid Celebi
> 
> 
> I think MPT-76 is also a Multi Caliber Gun and also has a DMR version



No, the AFG and carry handle are removable.


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## chinazun

Does anyone know how can I post a new thread because I am unable to do it. It doesn't let me do it after I do 5 posts and 
i already introduced myself. I have no permission to create new thread. Please help me !


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## Winchester

chinazun said:


> Does anyone know how can I post a new thread because I am unable to do it. It doesn't let me do it after I do 5 posts and
> i already introduced myself. I have no permission to create new thread. Please help me !


 
I think your post count should be 20 or 50 before you are allowed to start threads. 

Have some fun in the Vietnam related threads i am sure you can get to 50 in no time


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## chinazun

Pakistan would buy semi auto modified ak 47 from Russia worth 1.2 million dollars


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## Super Falcon

Dear dont use comments on gun which we already using AK 47

Dear HK 417 is multi caliber HK 416 is single caliber

And having multi caliber gives our soldiers more option with single gun

Scar should be bought for SSG



Zarvan said:


> The Gun in third picture looks different in shape as compares to Gun in first picture. Am I right ?
> @Neptune @Hakan @cabatli_53 @Hurshid Celebi
> 
> 
> I think MPT-76 is also a Multi Caliber Gun and also has a DMR version


Still HK 417 is superior

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## Saquib

This is the right time for Pakistan Army if they choose the right rifle, it can come out with a great deal and ToT and it could lead to more and better equipment for the Army!

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## Zarvan

chinazun said:


> Pakistan would buy semi auto modified ak 47 from Russia worth 1.2 million dollars


No we are not we are already using AK-47


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## 544_delta

Technogaianist said:


> Pakistan's SSU also uses it


source??pictures???


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## Zarvan

Neptune said:


> Nope..battle rifle variant. They might opt for it in different roles if JÖAK likes it.












The Gun soldier carrying looks different than the Gun in picture below. Why is that ? I am not talking about the handle or accessories.


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## Neptune

Zarvan said:


> View attachment 244842
> 
> View attachment 244843
> 
> The Gun soldier carrying looks different than the Gun in picture below. Why is that ? I am not talking about the handle or accessories.



Dude its the same gun, no difference.

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## Zarvan

Neptune said:


> Dude its the same gun, no difference.


But the magazine at least is bigger


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## knight11

Goenitz said:


> Yaar waisee seriously Irfan Bhai, we can build a Nuke but we can't manage to build a Rifle !
> 
> 
> 
> Is it apathy or are we really lacking in some areas ?[/QUOTE said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bombs, nukes etc must have a shelf life and they are used just once..
> where as engines, rifles etc daily/frequent used items.. actually its all about material science/metallurgy..
> similarly Chian and russian aircraft/automobile engine's have short lives just because ok lack of this science...
> amd processors easily get hotter comapred to intel processors bcz impurities in amd processors are not controlled that efficiently...
> 
> @Armstrong
> 
> 
> 
> Yes why not developed indigenous riffle which can fulfill the requirement of the army specification and could save lot of foreign exchange. In a long run this approach will be the most beneficial.
Click to expand...


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## Pak_Track

Zarvan said:


> But the magazine at least is bigger


Only difference I see is the folding front sight post. You should not that the dude handling the gun looks pretty small, making the rifle look big. Magazine appears to be what any .308 box mag would look like.
Note the flash suppressor, stock, rail, rear backup sight post and charging handle. It's the same gun.
And anyway, AR-15 typically don't go beyond .308.


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## Neptune

Zarvan said:


> But the magazine at least is bigger



Nope. It's the standard STANAG derivative magazine for MPT-76.


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## Super Falcon

Hope we get best gun for our jawans no compromises should be made for cheap gun


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## That Guy

Super Falcon said:


> Dear dont use comments on gun which we already using AK 47
> 
> Dear HK 417 is multi caliber HK 416 is single caliber
> 
> And having multi caliber gives our soldiers more option with single gun
> 
> Scar should be bought for SSG
> 
> 
> Still HK 417 is superior


SCAR is far too expensive, PA can't afford it.

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## Areesh

That Guy said:


> SCAR is far too expensive, PA can't afford it.



What about HK416/417? Can PA afford it? I would prefer it since we have been using a lot of HK stuff for a long long time.


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## Fenrir

Areesh said:


> What about HK416/417? Can PA afford it? I would prefer it since we have been using a lot of HK stuff for a long long time.



Maybe, maybe not, I don't know Pakistan's budget, but I do know the HK417 isn't cheap either. I did a rundown of the 417's cost to the Norwegian Armed Forces:

Pakistans future Assault Rifle | Page 18

We're using it as a designated marksman weapon, it's far too expensive to equip military wide.

You tell me, knowing more about the budget than I do, whether or not this is affordable.

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## Areesh

Technogaianist said:


> Maybe, maybe not, I don't know Pakistan's budget, but I do know the HK417 isn't cheap either. I did a rundown of the 417's cost to the Norwegian Armed Forces:
> 
> Pakistans future Assault Rifle | Page 18
> 
> We're using it as a designated marksman weapon, it's far too expensive to equip military wide.
> 
> You tell me, knowing more about the budget than I do, whether or not this is affordable.



Well we have around a million soldiers to arm and as per your calculations it doesn't look cheap. We might have to go for Turkish one then.


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## That Guy

Areesh said:


> What about HK416/417? Can PA afford it? I would prefer it since we have been using a lot of HK stuff for a long long time.


It depends. The HK is supposedly cheaper.

One thing to keep in mind is that Pakistan will not be paying one lump sum, that's never how these things work. Instead, Pakistan will pay an initial fee, and then pay over time, for each rifle manufactured in Pakistan, under license...or at least something similar to this affect.

The SCAR, even with this sort of financial plan is expensive for Pakistan. The advantage the 416/7 has is that, HK and Pakistan already have a working relationship, plus the hk-416/7 was initially designed to be a relatively cheap replacement for the m-16/4 of the US (and the ak-47 to a good degree).

Right now, I think that PA is going to seriously consider the HK rifles, along with the mpt-7, far more than any other competitor. If I had to bet, I would wager that the HK rifle has the highest chance of selection.

Tl;dr If the price for the HK (as has been suggested) is correct, then it is the best bet for PA, and would consolidate HK-PA business relations.

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## Immanuel

Both SCAR and HK are very expensive, even basic civilian versions in the US with out any mounts cost well over 3000 dollars per unit. As for TOT and local manufacture, not sure if license manufacture would be granted for these. Still both would be quite expensive. If theTurkish Rifles pass the trials, they would no doubt be the lowest bidders and would win the tenders.


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## Pak_Track

If Pakistan switches to .223 and retain .308 for border soldiers, it'll allow us to replace the rifles for a new alternative.
.223 is much cheaper to manufacture.


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## Super Falcon

That Guy said:


> SCAR is far too expensive, PA can't afford it.


May be but if it passes trial we must have it M 4 rifles are also good


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## That Guy

Super Falcon said:


> May be but if it passes trial we must have it M 4 rifles are also good


That's flawed logic. Just because a Ferrari is the type.of brand car you want, doesn't mean you can buy it.

M-4 is an old rifle. It's good, but even it's slowly being replaced within the US.

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## 544_delta

we should get some AK variant..Ak12 may be...nothing beats those

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## Saquib

PA troops can come out as winners if this is done properly! the economic climate as it is right now is a buyers market with countries after Afghanistan and Iraq involvement have surplus to sell. They can get whatever they choose as replacement and defence companies will offer suitable financial and TOT deals.


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## Super Falcon

That Guy said:


> That's flawed logic. Just because a Ferrari is the type.of brand car you want, doesn't mean you can buy it.
> 
> M-4 is an old rifle. It's good, but even it's slowly being replaced within the US.


Bhai if ferrari serve the purpose of my driving why not

If we need scar and we dont buy and buy cheap gun than why buy keep old gun these gun we choose will serve for decades so price should not be big issue with tot lical production it will cost less


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## That Guy

Super Falcon said:


> Bhai if ferrari serve the purpose of my driving why not
> 
> If we need scar and we dont buy and buy cheap gun than why buy keep old gun these gun we choose will serve for decades so price should not be big issue with tot lical production it will cost less


If you don't have the money to buy it, you can't have it, that's why not. Pakistan can't afford the SCAR.

There are rifles that are just as good, that are far cheaper.

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## Super Falcon

SAR 21 Assault rifle from italy aith bulpop is also good option

Sorry it was by singapire my appologies

ARX 160 is also very good along with HK 417

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## UkroTurk

Bullpup platforms have not reliable mechanic systems.Thats why Germany never produced. Best platform is the HK 416. They mixed Ar-15 gas system with short piston. It gives Ar-15s accuracy and Ak's reliable. And verry simple .Only disatvantsge non polymer , hk 416 aliminium. New polymer techologies more reliable than aliminium.Thats why FN,CZ,BERETTA choised polymer rifle platforms.


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## Haider_Abbas

Asalaam alaikum ,

Maine yeh website sirf is liye join kiya kyunke aap log MPT-76 rifle se aage hi nahin barh rahe the bhai please Imbel IA2 Brazilian rilfe pe bhi ghor karein its affordable and a good all round rifle comes in both 7.62 and 5.56 versions.

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## MMG

AK-47M 4th Generation?


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## Haider_Abbas

Bhaijaan google karein Imbel IA2 assault rilfe aap sab bhol jayenge. Its a modern rifle with OTB feature as well

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## Haider_Abbas

Bhai i am new in this website toh thora guide karte rahna aap log inshallah amin


Please view the pic below


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## RAMPAGE

Haider_Abbas said:


> Asalaam alaikum ,
> 
> Maine yeh website sirf is liye join kiya kyunke aap log MPT-76 rifle se aage hi nahin barh rahe the bhai please Imbel IA2 Brazilian rilfe pe bhi ghor karein its affordable and a good all round rifle comes in both 7.62 and 5.56 versions.


Plz post specs of this rifle (7.62) and also the unit cost, thanks.


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## Haider_Abbas

I dont know the unit cost. But here is the video

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## thrilainmanila

how good are the current upgraded AK-47s in service with PA. why doesn't any of the upgrades have a UBGL?


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## Haider_Abbas

Bro the round used by Ak-47 is 7.62 x 39 where as PA prefers 7.62 x 51 so i dont think they will choose any ak variant even though the new version (ak-12 ) is much improved from ak-47


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## RAMPAGE

@Icarus @Xeric 

Bros, Any idea which rifle is the most likely replacement? What about MPT-76 with a unit cost of $1490?

Also, do you think that MG3 will also be replaced in the near future?

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## Zarvan

RAMPAGE said:


> @Icarus @Xeric
> 
> Bros, Any idea which rifle is the most likely replacement? What about MPT-76 with a unit cost of $1490?
> 
> Also, do you think that MG3 will also be replaced in the near future?


Bro many Guns will be tested including MPT-76 and if it passes tests with flying colors we would go for it


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## SurvivoR

Can we have some detailed illustrations, configurations and professional reviews of the prospective guns in this competitive tender? It would be great if we could have some proper professional analysis by the experts on PDF and/or links to other independent firmarms experts.


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## UkroTurk

RAMPAGE said:


> Plz post specs of this rifle (7.62) and also the unit cost, thanks.


For the spesification look hk417
Working princip same hk417. Ar-15 bolt system with short piston, recoil system in stocks like a Ar-15 and material aliminium with stall.because of the licence and patent law problems turkish mkek change only bolt.
Remember german hk has best technology, materials and knowhow. Heating process aliminium it is the big problem. Turkish manufacturers very young and in Turkey heating process aliminium big problem.
Price is not clear because assault rifle for army! This is not a semi auto sport rifle. Turkish old G3 .308win for US civil markey costs near the 2000$.

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## arif hamza

Are we even able to make our own product like 100% made by pakistan ?


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## asimmasood87

It looks beautiful indeed. Great to see Pakistan advancing their warfare


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## RAMPAGE

@DESERT FIGHTER

Dude, keep us updated if possible.


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## RAMPAGE

Horus said:


> SCAR 17 would be my pick, its modular, adaptable, ergonomic, light weight and it comes in a lot of variants and barrel lengths, grenade launchers etc
> 
> It will be cheaper when mass produced in Pakistan. It will also satisfy most of our DMR, SBR requirements and its compact variant can replace our MP-5s.


Can we make this one a sticky? with a better title?


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## Immanuel

FN SCAR will not be cheap even when made in Pak, let alone be available for licensed manufacture


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## Haider_Abbas

What about new polish rifle just released or cz805


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## Zarvan

Haider_Abbas said:


> What about new polish rifle just released or cz805


Well it's way to knew by the time it is tested by Poland we would have chosen a Gun by than.


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## 544_delta

how are the tests going? do we have a favourite?


----------



## Thunder.Storm

Zarvan said:


> As it is now fully confirmed that Pakistan has decided to replace G3 with a new standard weapon. For this a board of Army officers led by a Major General will evaluate all major Guns used by leading militaries in the world and one of them will be chosen for Pakistan so it's time to discuss potential candidates and their features.
> By the way MPT-76 are first to come for evaluation.
> @WebMaster @Horus @Oscar @Irfan Baloch @balixd @Icarus @kaonalpha @syedali73 @Sulman Badshah @Wolfhound @nair @SpArK @GURU DUTT @Imran Khan @Arsalan @RescueRanger @Bratva @Slav Defence @ajpirzada @DESERT FIGHTER @

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## Super Falcon

Looks 


Thunder.Storm said:


>


good accurate adoptable how u use it and above all low reciol and soft mobility


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## madmusti

RAMPAGE said:


> Plz post specs of this rifle (7.62) and also the unit cost, thanks.








MKEK MPT - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## madmusti



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## PWFI

The best Option by all means is MPT-76 for Pakistan army.

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## UkroTurk

This is fight in Ukraine.
Please look the video.
If you are soldier- Which caliber do you prefer?
You don't see your enemy. You dont know where are they? Your job only firing !
You need a lot of ammo! Maybe your hands, hears and body tired, Because you fired a lot of ammo. You need comfortable , light caliber.
If you are General of the War - Which caliber would you prefer? War and fight in everywhere! Your 10000 soldiers fighting, firing 10 hours in day. Your 10000 soldiers must fight one year everday. How many ammo your 10000 soldiers need in one day ? And how many in one year? Thats why Russia and Usa prefered 5.56 and 5.45mm calibers.
.308win one ammo cost 2dollar.
.223rem 1dollar. If you need 10 billion ammo you can account.


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## Zarvan

PWFI said:


> The best Option by all means is MPT-76 for Pakistan army.


I agree it is most easy option let's hope it passes tests

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## Zarvan




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## Zarvan

*DSEI 2015: Beretta unveils ARX-200 battle rifle*
*Paolo Valpolini, London and Nicholas de Larrinaga, London* - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
17 September 2015




Beretta unveiled its new ARX-200 battle rifle (top) at DSEI. The 7.62 mm rifle maintains a common look and feel with the company's ARX-160 5.56 mm assault rifle, although its internals differ. Source: Paulo Valpolini
Beretta Defense Technologies showed off its awaited ARX-200 7.62x51 mm combat rifle at DSEI 2015 in London.

Developed to the requirements of the Italian Army, the ARX 200 is currently being qualified according to NATO AC 225/LCG1 rules.

The new rifle draws on the experience acquired with the ARX-160A3 5.56x45 mm rifle, adopted by the Italian Army and numerous other export customers.

Although not based on the ARX-160, the ARX-200 maintains a family look and feel with the earlier rifle, with many features such as the magazine release, the hold-open, and others remaining the same to facilitate training in services using both rifles.

A gas-piston operated weapon with locked breech and rotating bolt, the ARX-200 has no double-side expulsion, brass being always ejected on the left. However the cocking handle can be switched left or right dismounting the rifle, and the three-position fire selector (safe-single shot-automatic) is available on both sides.

The ARX-200 does not feature an immediate change barrel system, a quick change system having been adopted in the form of a single bolt under the handguard, fixing the heavy 16-inch free-floating cold hammer forged barrel to the bolt assembly.

Beretta took care to minimise weight, the upper rail and the forehand being made of a single aluminium piece, which is coupled with a reinforced techno-polymer insert hosting the bolt. The rifle uses the KeyMod system on the forehand in order to install side rails when needed. The ARX-200 has a weight of 4.5 kg, without magazine.

In terms of accuracy the new 7.62x51 mm rifle exceeded company expectations, obtaining a 1.5 MOA accuracy at 100 m using match-grade ammunition, a performance in line with designated marksman rifles. In fact Beretta will soon start developing a DMR [designated marksman rifle] version, modularity allowing the replacement of the fire selector and trigger assemblies; the former will be replaced by a two-position (safe and single shot) selector while the current single-stage trigger, whose pull should be around 3 kg, will be replaced by a dual-stage trigger with a pull of around 2 kg.

*Want to read more? For analysis on this article and access to all our insight content, please enquire about our subscription options **ihs.com/contact*




To read the full article, Client Login
(365 of 635 words)

DSEI 2015: Beretta unveils ARX-200 battle rifle - IHS Jane's 360

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## JPMM

For those interested in the G-28 and MG-5, they were just bought by the Portuguese Air Force UPF (Force Protection Unit), take a look!
G-28 & MG-5 NA UNIDADE DE PROTEÇÃO DA FORÇA (I) | Operacional
All Army/Navy/Air Force/GNR/Police joint the HK demontration

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## Neutron

Its very strange.......... 24 pages of this thread............ people are suggesting thier favourite rifle for Pakistan army.......... without any hint what are the considerations of PA and result of trial. ........... Yesterday someone commented about PAF doctrine not suitable for Pakistan. ........... relax boys

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## Zarvan

Neutron said:


> Its very strange.......... 24 pages of this thread............ people are suggesting thier favourite rifle for Pakistan army.......... without any hint what are the considerations of PA and result of trial. ........... Yesterday someone commented about PAF doctrine not suitable for Pakistan. ........... relax boys


What we know for sure is a commitee was formed and many Guns will be tested but those who have 7.62 X 51 calliber


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## yugocrosrb95

Pakistani keep forcing 7.62x51... Lets make our soldiers tired, lets use heavy assault rifles, lets use ammo that costs twice as much than 5.56x45 M855A1 which costs exactly as original M855.

I did more scourching around the web, apparently M855A1 performance is comparable to 7.62x51.

Imagine how much money you could save by switching to 7.62x51... How much does Pakistani spend on bullets each year? I bet saving would allow Pakistani to buy 24 to 36 more Oplot M tanks...


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## Zarvan

yugocrosrb95 said:


> Pakistani keep forcing 7.62x51... Lets make our soldiers tired, lets use heavy assault rifles, lets use ammo that costs twice as much than 5.56x45 M855A1 which costs exactly as original M855.
> 
> I did more scourching around the web, apparently M855A1 performance is comparable to 7.62x51.
> 
> Imagine how much money you could save by switching to 7.62x51... How much does Pakistani spend on bullets each year? I bet saving would allow Pakistani to buy 24 to 36 more Oplot M tanks...


Sorry but we would stick to 7.62 X 51 caliber and USA and NATO wars in Afghanistan has proved that 5.56 X 45 is not that effective. As for Oplot M we haven't finalized it yet.


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## yugocrosrb95

Zarvan said:


> Sorry but we would stick to 7.62 X 51 caliber and USA and NATO wars in Afghanistan has proved that 5.56 X 45 is not that effective. As for Oplot M we haven't finalized it yet.


Proved what? M855... Not M855A1.


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## Humble Analyst

Neutron said:


> Its very strange.......... 24 pages of this thread............ people are suggesting thier favourite rifle for Pakistan army.......... without any hint what are the considerations of PA and result of trial. ........... Yesterday someone commented about PAF doctrine not suitable for Pakistan. ........... relax boys


PAF has a comfort zone and it is called F16,
on topic once we change how we can recover some money from the discarded G3? Are there any Armies interested in cheap G3s?

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## yugocrosrb95

Humble Analyst said:


> PAF has a comfort zone and it is called F16,
> on topic once we change how we can recover some money from the discarded G3? Are there any Armies interested in cheap G3s?


There are in Africa.

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## Aamir Hussain

PWFI said:


> The best Option by all means is MPT-76 for Pakistan army.



It seems like an of-shoot of the M-16. The charger mechanism the side tap etc. are that of an M-16A1. The overall arrangement and the bolt assembly seems familiar.

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## TaimiKhan

Aamir Hussain said:


> It seems like an of-shoot of the M-16. The charger mechanism the side tap etc. are that of an M-16A1. The overall arrangement and the bolt assembly seems familiar.



Its reported to be more like based on the design of HK-417. May be some changes from outside but internal mechanism may be copy of HK 417. Some sources even reported that Turks may have bought the tech from HK for internal production.

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## Zarvan

TaimiKhan said:


> Its reported to be more like based on the design of HK-417. May be some changes from outside but internal mechanism may be copy of HK 417. Some sources even reported that Turks may have bought the tech from HK for internal production.


Well would their be some issues if they decide to sell these Guns to Pakistan with TOT ?


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## TaimiKhan

Zarvan said:


> Well would their be some issues if they decide to sell these Guns to Pakistan with TOT ?



Don't think so. They must have bought the rights to sell or transfer tech. Many times such companies agree that they will not compete with each other in the same market. And with local manufacture even if turks gives us the tech, we still will have to pay them royalty per weapon, just like we paid to the H&K for their guns manufactured at POF.

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## Sulman Badshah

JPMM said:


> For those interested in the G-28 and MG-5, they were just bought by the Portuguese Air Force UPF (Force Protection Unit), take a look!
> G-28 & MG-5 NA UNIDADE DE PROTEÇÃO DA FORÇA (I) | Operacional
> All Army/Navy/Air Force/GNR/Police joint the HK demontration


that's looks cool

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## The Vicious Kind

MKEK MPT looks amazing. Does anyone know how much is cost to equip theTurkish army ? Its unit price ? and how much does economy of scale factor in the price of these guns ,when being bought by a third party.


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## Zarvan

The Vicious Kind said:


> MKEK MPT looks amazing. Does anyone know how much is cost to equip theTurkish army ? Its unit price ? and how much does economy of scale factor in the price of these guns ,when being bought by a third party.


Well we can manage the cost. We knew about the cost before deciding to replace our older Gun


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## Ray_of_Hope

I think Pakistan should go ahead with MPT-76 as battle rifle while M4 carbine should be made the standard for use in close quarters combat.
My 2 cents.


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## BordoEnes

TaimiKhan said:


> Its reported to be more like based on the design of HK-417. May be some changes from outside but internal mechanism may be copy of HK 417. Some sources even reported that Turks may have bought the tech from HK for internal production.



The design and ergonomics of the MPT-76 are based on the AR-15. The internal machinisme is essentialy a cloned HK-417 gas piston system. Much like you said its essentialy similair in alot of aspecs to the HK-417, which honestly i find quite reassuring. Its seems Turkey didnt want to take any chances with such a huge project so they took the safests road.

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## yugocrosrb95

war khan said:


> I think Pakistan should go ahead with MPT-76as battle rifle while M4 carbine should be made the standard for use in close quarter.
> My 2 cents.


M4 Carbine for close quarter... Why not use bullpup? I reccommend VHS 2 bullpup assault rifle...


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## Aamir Hussain

I have extensively trained on M-16A1 and atleast externally some aspects of the weapon looks like one. By taking the best of two very successful designs, the weapon promises to be a robust and accurate weapon.

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## Ray_of_Hope

yugocrosrb95 said:


> M4 Carbine for close quarter... Why not use bullpup? I reccommend VHS 2 bullpup assault rifle...


I said M4 for CQC because Pakistan already uses this weapon with SSG (Special Forces).Introducing a totally different weapon will bring additional logistics difficulties and training costs..


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## Knight Rider

*Turkish Marines Holding MPT-76 Rifle.*


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## Humble Analyst

Zarvan said:


> Well we can manage the cost. We knew about the cost before deciding to replace our older Gun


Off topic question if care to answer, saw that SSG Zarar company uses Glock 19 which is compact size why not Glock 17 couple of more rounds better grip? If you can shed some light. Just curious. If they were concealed carrying yes I can understand 19 or 26 but with full gear would not it be better to have a full size pistol versus compact. Now the latest version of Glock 17 has some issues but this was not the case when Glock 19 was inducted and Glock 17 version 3 was good.


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## yugocrosrb95

war khan said:


> I said M4 for CQC because Pakistan already uses this weapon with SSG (Special Forces).Introducing a totally different weapon will bring additional logistics difficulties and training costs..


368mm barrel of M4 vs 500mm barrel of VHS for same length when M4 is stock/butt is retracted...

M4 880m/s vs VHS 2 950m/s speed of bullet thus longer range, better penetration and higher accuracy and if using M855A1 ammo type then M4 will jam frequently while VHS 2 won't jam at all since its design takes notice of M855A1 and M855A1 is lead free thus it does not poison fertile land and it has better penetration of bricks and steel and is more deadlier than original M855.


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## Ray_of_Hope

yugocrosrb95 said:


> 368mm barrel of M4 vs 500mm barrel of VHS for same length when M4 is stock/butt is retracted...
> 
> M4 880m/s vs VHS 2 950m/s speed of bullet thus longer range, better penetration and higher accuracy and if using M855A1 ammo type then M4 will jam frequently while VHS 2 won't jam at all since its design takes notice of M855A1 and M855A1 is lead free thus it does not poison fertile land and it has better penetration of bricks and steel and is more deadlier than original M855.


Please read my previous post again.......I did not talk about which gun is better.Rather my point was about logistic and training difficulties.


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## Super Falcon

I think HK 417 well suited for PA it is tested and seen a war

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## denel

Super Falcon said:


> I think HK 417 well suited for PA it is tested and seen a war


So is Galil/R4 far more battle tested than HK417.


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## Super Falcon

N


denel said:


> So is Galil/R4 far more battle tested than HK417.


o Israeli made weapon pak interested to adopt


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## krash

denel said:


> So is Galil/R4 far more battle tested than HK417.



And is not ancient?


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## denel

krash said:


> And is not ancient?


nope. from the 70's.


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## krash

denel said:


> nope. from the 70's.



1972, which makes it ancient and only 10 years younger than the in-service G3. Instead of wasting money on that I'd rather we keep the G3s or get the Chinese AK clones, which both, if I've read correct, exceed the Galil in performance. 

Besides, the point is to modernize the military's main battle rifle, which the Galil cannot in any aspect.


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## denel

krash said:


> 1972, which makes it ancient and only 10 years younger than the in-service G3. Instead of wasting money on that I'd rather we keep the G3s or get the Chinese AK clones, which both, if I've read correct, exceed the Galil in performance.
> 
> Besides, the point is to modernize the military's main battle rifle, which the Galil cannot in any aspect.


I have made my thoughts known before; there are merits for G3 which can be improvised. Galil is based off AK in any case and exhibits excellent reliability.


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## Super Falcon

Forget galil which even israelis retired need to move forward israel uses travor rifle in 3 different varients do we have some thing like future or keeo stick with old


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## RAMPAGE

MPT 76 full auto!






@Sinan @T-123456 

Any plans for MG3 replacement?

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## eagleeye

RAMPAGE said:


> MPT 76 full auto!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Sinan @T-123456
> 
> Any plans for MG3 replacement?


It is intended to replace the G3. Serial produktion has already startet.

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## T-123456

RAMPAGE said:


> MPT 76 full auto!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Sinan @T-123456
> 
> Any plans for MG3 replacement?


*MPT-76 Battle Rifle | News and Discussions*

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## Zarvan



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## Super Falcon

Good zarvaan AK 12 SCAR MPT 76 and HK 417 all are best but i would pick A 12 and HK 417 for my army


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Over 4 rifles are undergoing tests/study... Will be produced under ToT.

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## rockstar08

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Over 4 rifles are undergoing tests/study... Will be produced under ToT.



which 4 Rifles ?


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## PWFI

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Over 4 rifles are undergoing tests/study... Will be produced under ToT.



Thanks for confirmation jani you made my day---btw more than 4 rifles are undergoing test/study if i am not wrong

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## barbarosa

i think G 4 rifle. i would like G 4 rifle as american j 16.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

rockstar08 said:


> which 4 Rifles ?


Not a great idea to share specific details .. Bet let's say they are of European and "Asian" origin.

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## RAMPAGE

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Not a great idea to share specific details .. Bet let's say they are of European and "Asian" origin.


Are you sure because that's not very sensitive information.


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## Selous

Time to teach our jawans marksmanship and the concept of one shot one kill...and give them all scoped bolt guns with a larger caliber.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

barbarosa said:


> i think G 4 rifle. i would like G 4 rifle as american j 16.


What is G4 and J-16? Did you mean M-16 ?



RAMPAGE said:


> Are you sure because that's not very sensitive information.



Yara I'm not .. But let's wait .. I promise il tell you when they decide lol.

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## Talwar e Pakistan

Zarvan said:


> As it is now fully confirmed that Pakistan has decided to replace G3 with a new standard weapon. For this a board of Army officers led by a Major General will evaluate all major Guns used by leading militaries in the world and one of them will be chosen for Pakistan so it's time to discuss potential candidates and their features.
> By the way MPT-76 are first to come for evaluation.
> @WebMaster @Horus @Oscar @Irfan Baloch @balixd @Icarus @kaonalpha @syedali73 @Sulman Badshah @Wolfhound @nair @SpArK @GURU DUTT @Imran Khan @Arsalan @RescueRanger @Bratva @Slav Defence @ajpirzada @DESERT FIGHTER @


Any updates yet?


----------



## rockstar08

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Not a great idea to share specific details .. Bet let's say they are of European and "Asian" origin.



Ok brother  do let me know if you knew and when its safe to disclose 
I could have ask my family friend but last i heard that he is posted in trouble area 
he's busy hunting Talibooni's

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## Talwar e Pakistan

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Over 4 rifles are undergoing tests/study... Will be produced under ToT.


Hasnt the G-3 already been replaced by the AK Chinese clone? Because those are the only rfiles i'm seeing now.


----------



## Thunder.Storm

barbarosa said:


> i think G 4 rifle. i would like G 4 rifle as american j 16.


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

Selous said:


> Time to teach our jawans marksmanship and the concept of one shot one kill...and give them all scoped bolt guns with a larger caliber.



Already done.. G3 based DMRs (apart from Dragonovs [limited in service with army -- but main DMR for Paramil forces) are already in service]... Meanwhile another indigenous Bolt action sniper is probably undergoing production as we speak.. @balixd. Would have more on its production.



Talwar e Pakistan said:


> Hasnt the G-3 already been replaced by the AK Chinese clone? Because those are the only rfiles i'm seeing now.



The Type-56s have replaced the MP-5s...

MP-5s are being phased out.


Modified G3Ms are in service with army and Paramil.. Meanwhile the shorter G3S are also being issued to Paramil and police.



Talwar e Pakistan said:


> Any updates yet?



I can confirm about the Turkish gun MPT-76.. It is indeed a contender... @RAMPAGE. @T-123456. @Sinan.


@Zarvan. Mullah I don't know if it's wise to make such things public..

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## T-123456

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> I can confirm about the Turkish gun MPT-76.. It is indeed a contender... @RAMPAGE. @T-123456. @Sinan.


You will probably go for the Chinese one.


----------



## Zain Ul Abideen Trimzy

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/26/MKEK_MPT-76.jpg
This one is nice with verticel grip+Bipods


----------



## RAMPAGE

T-123456 said:


> You will probably go for the Chinese one.


Not unless we change the caliber. I think that MPT 76 is going to make a very very strong case for itself. 

You do know that your Bora won a tender and is already in service with the Pakistan Army? POF is also producing Turkish handguns.

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## T-123456

RAMPAGE said:


> Not unless we change the caliber. I think that MPT 76 is going to make a very very strong case for itself.
> 
> *You do know that your Bora won a tender and is already in service with the Pakistan Army? POF is also producing Turkish handguns*.


Yes i knew that,how long will this testing be taking,a year?

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## RAMPAGE

T-123456 said:


> Yes i knew that,how long will this testing be taking,a year?


Maybe, maybe less.

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## madmusti



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## DESERT FIGHTER

T-123456 said:


> You will probably go for the Chinese one.



Not really QBZs have been on offer since years... Yet it's only in limited service with LEAs not military.

By Asian I meant Turkish.

The contender will solely win on merit.. We don't want to arm a million troops deployed in regions with -50 artic conditions to scorching hot deserts & forest,humid plains & marshy swampy terrain.



T-123456 said:


> Yes i knew that,how long will this testing be taking,a year?



Months if not an year.. Depends.. It's not easy choosing a rifle fo an entire military..

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## Zarvan

@DESERT FIGHTER We are making nothing public as for MPT-76 it was clear from day one that we would test this Gun


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## Talwar e Pakistan

T-123456 said:


> Yes i knew that,how long will this testing be taking,a year?


MPT will most likely not get through; we have a diverse climates. From the worlds coldest and hgihest battle ground to scorching deserts, from fertile plains to wetland swamps - we need a service rifle that can bare all that.


----------



## T-123456

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> MPT will most likely not get through; we have a diverse climates. From the worlds coldest and hgihest battle ground to scorching deserts, from fertile plains to wetland swamps - we need a service rifle that can bare all that.


Ever taken a look at Turkish climate?


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## Zarvan

T-123456 said:


> Ever taken a look at Turkish climate?


MPT-76 would easily pass all the tests. The only test which would be a question is Desert

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## Talwar e Pakistan

T-123456 said:


> Ever taken a look at Turkish climate?


Sure, but Turkish climate is no where close to Pakistan when it comes to extremes.


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## Wolf

Please comment about chinese qbz-03.


----------



## barbarosa

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> What is G4 and J-16? Did you mean M-16 ?
> 
> yes i mean M16.
> 
> Yara I'm not .. But let's wait .. I promise il tell you when they decide lol.


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

Wolf said:


> Please comment about chinese qbz-03.



I've seen it with a few troops.. Very limited in service..

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## Super Falcon

As far as i know front runners are HK 417 and AK 12

What about machine gun replacements


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## Zarvan

Super Falcon said:


> As far as i know front runners are HK 417 and AK 12
> 
> What about machine gun replacements


What is your source ?


----------



## [--Leo--]

just when in the world Pakistan develop their own design for rifle . Pakistan is capable of doing that but i don't understand why they don't?


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## Lone Ranger

[--Leo--] said:


> just when in the world Pakistan develop their own design for rifle . Pakistan is capable of doing that but i don't understand why they don't?



lack of budget for defence research and production companies


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## GoldenRatio1618

Rifle design in future will be acceptable if the bullet design have multi war heads just check on youtube future bullet design its very strong and effective no chance of survival in any case because after fire it put strong bunch no chance for second bullet fire for target..


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## Wolf

Selection of any service rifle for Pakistan Army will and should involve factors such as rate of fire, accuracy, accuracy when barrel heats up, jamming issues, effective range, weight, cost effectiveness etc. 

I may stand corrected but i have read that German Army has only temporarily replaced HK 417 with G36 owing to some issues with HK 417. Furthermore, it may cost around 10 thousand dollars a piece. However, if this is not the case and we can afford it then it should be selected. An 12, Ak 103, MPT 76, qbz 03 are not bad choice either if they show better results in areas mentioned in first para above. Regards.


----------



## Super Falcon

Zarvan said:


> What is your source ?


Gut feeling no source


----------



## SSGcommandoPAK

hkdas said:


> H&k 416 is now replaced by Special Operations Forces Combat Assault Rifle (SCAR) in many NATO sf, consider FN SCAR if you have money and FN have allowed their product to pakistan.


Scar has a lot of recoil and its expensive , dont u play Call of duty ?



New World said:


> sir, equation will be same if you assault rifle from foreign vendor say hk-417 rifle which is expensive and you will buy these rifles in hundreds of thousands in quantity,
> 
> but on other hand what has come out from R&D will be nearly 5x less expensive than these hk-417.. but R&D takes time.



We should examine every riffle carefully , Cause we dont want our riffles to end up like the Insas program failure .

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## RAMPAGE



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## ali_raza

RAMPAGE said:


>


whats that gun?

no news on the new gun


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## Zarvan

ali_raza said:


> whats that gun?
> 
> no news on the new gun


News will take time we don't even know which Guns Pakistan is testing MPT-76 is one of the Gun that I know which are other Guns no information yet.

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## Zarvan



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## ghilzai

Zarvan said:


>



Who is the manufacturer?.


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## Zarvan

ghilzai said:


> Who is the manufacturer?.


PINDAD Indonesia


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## Super Falcon

HK 417 is suitable for pak

Remember its not only army uses it

Pak marines
Pak rangers
Pak FC
Pak special police unit
Pak Ant narcotic force
Pak airforce 
Paknavy


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## madmusti



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## Zarvan

@Sulman Badshah Do you have any news ?


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## Sulman Badshah

Zarvan said:


> @Sulman Badshah Do you have any news ?


no news regarding this yet ...


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## Zarvan

@kaonalpha Sir when we should expect to hear any news


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## Cool_Soldier

Waiting for news........


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## Quwa

A side point regarding cost, Turkey produces the MPT-76 for $1200 a unit. Pakistan going this route may yield even lower unit costs.


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## Kompromat

MPT-76 is far from perfect as a battle rifle given our adverse climatic requirements ranging from sub zero arctic warfare conditions in Siachen to terrifying 50+ degree heat in Thar sector and salt water area of operations in run of kuch and Arabian Sea (Since Marines also use G-3s). At $1200 the price is "ridiculous" considering that we will have to produce almost one million service rifles for strategic requirements including Army, Marines, Rangers, FC, SPD SSU and other LEAs that operate 7.62mm rifles. 

This is going to be a very expensive investment for us to replace our old rifles, produce new ones and then train our soldiers to use them to battlefield effectiveness levels. Shooters who have operated a certain rifle frame develop muscle memory which makes their shooting abilities instantaneous. It would take us a long time to achieve that with a new frame with new ergonomics. 

Having said that, the MPT-76 is basically a Turkish redesign of hk-417. We simply cannot compromise on the quality of the rifle if we are going to pay top dollar price for each unit when produced at POF under license from the manufacturer. We are much better off taking both MPT-76 and hk-417 off the table. The rifle that suits us the best is FN-SCAR-H which has the same caliber as the G-3 so no replacement of millions of rounds needed, it also comes with a Short Barrel Rifle (SBR) variant, a Personal Defense Weapon (PDW) variant, a 5.56mm variant (for certain applications) as well as a Designated Marksman Rifle (DMR) variant, all will be developed on a SINGLE production line. 

If we go for SCAR-L and H under licensed production, we can replace G-3s, SBRs as well as MP-5s and out of date DMRs in service all in one go. As a one off payment its going to cost us a lot to acquire the production license and machinery but in the long term its going to be cheaper for us to produce and train our soldiers on a single identical frame. On a side note, i think there is enough data available on the forum on this subject to put it in an article exploring the ideal replacement options for G-3 and MP-5s. 

@Icarus @MilSpec @Hyperion @balixd @TaimiKhan



Quwa said:


> A side point regarding cost, Turkey produces the MPT-76 for $1200 a unit. Pakistan going this route may yield even lower unit costs.

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## MilSpec

I think it's time to move away from 7.62x51 and start adapting a 6.5 Grendel or a 6.8SPC. Given that it would be a hard transition, Maybe a Multi caliber platform is the correct solution to consolidate existing calibers. One advantage that PA must look at is Chinese platforms given that they have similar variation in geographical terrain and climate factors. Given PA is the 7th largest standing army, it is imperative to look for a economical solution without compromising on performance. Norinco might be able to provide a custom solution that will meet specific PA requirements at a fraction of the price. Lastly it's High time Pakistan developed it's own Rifle System, not copies or license production, You guys have a rich rifleman culture, and generations of exceptional gunsmithing talent. If anyone is poised to make a good rifle system it's you guys. You need to support your own rifle small arms development, in the long run the industry will be it's weight in gold. 

regards. 

@DESERT FIGHTER @RescueRanger BTW check out the the new AK ALFA from Klashnikov USA, its freakin B.E.A.-uitful.




Horus said:


> MPT-76 is far from perfect as a battle rifle given our adverse climatic requirements ranging from sub zero arctic warfare conditions in Siachen to terrifying 50+ degree heat in Thar sector and salt water area of operations in run of kuch and Arabian Sea (Since Marines also use G-3s). At $1200 the price is "ridiculous" considering that we will have to produce almost one million service rifles for strategic requirements including Army, Marines, Rangers, FC, SPD SSU and other LEAs that operate 7.62mm rifles.
> 
> This is going to be a very expensive investment for us to replace our old rifles, produce new ones and then train our soldiers to use them to battlefield effectiveness levels. Shooters who have operated a certain rifle frame develop muscle memory which makes their shooting abilities instantaneous. It would take us a long time to achieve that with a new frame with new ergonomics.
> 
> Having said that, the MPT-76 is basically a Turkish redesign of hk-417. We simply cannot compromise on the quality of the rifle if we are going to pay top dollar price for each unit when produced at POF under license from the manufacturer. We are much better off taking both MPT-76 and hk-417 off the table. The rifle that suits us the best is FN-SCAR-H which has the same caliber as the G-3 so no replacement of millions of rounds needed, it also comes with a Short Barrel Rifle (SBR) variant, a Personal Defense Weapon (PDW) variant, a 5.56mm variant (for certain applications) as well as a Designated Marksman Rifle (DMR) variant, all will be developed on a SINGLE production line.
> 
> If we go for SCAR-L and H under licensed production, we can replace G-3s, SBRs as well as MP-5s and out of date DMRs in service all in one go. As a one off payment its going to cost us a lot to acquire the production license and machinery but in the long term its going to be cheaper for us to produce and train our soldiers on a single identical frame. On a side note, i think there is enough data available on the forum on this subject to put it in an article exploring the ideal replacement options for G-3 and MP-5s.
> 
> @Icarus @MilSpec @Hyperion @balixd @TaimiKhan

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## Kompromat

* Changing caliber would require replacing millions of rounds in stock. 
* I do not yet trust the milspec value of Chinese metallurgy in fire arms. They are catching up fast but not quite there yet. 
* Things become cheaper when they are mass produced, if we produce a million SCARs over next decade+ it will make it affordable. You just can't hand over a substandard firearm to a battle hardened soldier who knows its value like his breath, you'll kill his morale. He doesn't care if he is not given a vest but a cheap gun in his hands is just a betrayal. 



MilSpec said:


> I think it's time to move away from 7.62x51 and start adapting a 6.5 Grendel or a 6.8SPC. Given that it would be a hard transition, Maybe a Multi caliber platform is the correct solution to consolidate existing calibers. One advantage that PA must look at is Chinese platforms given that they have similar variation in geographical terrain and climate factors. Given PA is the 7th largest standing army, it is imperative to look for a economical solution without compromising on performance. Norinco might be able to provide a custom solution that will meet specific PA requirements at a fraction of the price. Lastly it's High time Pakistan developed it's own Rifle System, not copies or license production, You guys have a rich rifleman culture, and generations of exceptional gunsmithing talent. If anyone is poised to make a good rifle system it's you guys. You need to support your own rifle small arms development, in the long run the industry will be it's weight in gold.
> 
> regards.
> 
> @DESERT FIGHTER @RescueRanger BTW check out the the new AK ALFA from Klashnikov USA, its freakin B.E.A.-uitful.

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## Tipu7

Horus said:


> * Changing caliber would require replacing millions of rounds in stock.
> * I do not yet trust the milspec value of Chinese metallurgy in fire arms. They are catching up fast but not quite there yet.
> * Things become cheaper when they are mass produced, if we produce a million SCARs over next decade+ it will make it affordable. You just can't hand over a substandard firearm to a battle hardened soldier who knows its value like his breath, you'll kill his morale. He doesn't care if he is not given a vest but a cheap gun in his hands is just a betrayal.


How much time is needed to fully replace old rifle with new ones?
How much extra training is needed to expert New rifle?


Horus said:


> The rifle that suits us the best is FN-SCAR-H which has the same caliber as the G-3 so no replacement of millions of rounds needed, it also comes with a Short Barrel Rifle (SBR) variant, a Personal Defense Weapon (PDW) variant, a 5.56mm variant (for certain applications) as well as a Designated Marksman Rifle (DMR) variant, all will be developed on a SINGLE production line.
> 
> If we go for SCAR-L and H under licensed production, we can replace G-3s, SBRs as well as MP-5s and out of date DMRs in service all in one go. As a one off payment its going to cost us a lot to acquire the production license and machinery but in the long term its going to be cheaper for us to produce and train our soldiers on a single identical frame.


MPT76 offer same solutions too.
But that rifle look bit over engineered for PA terrain..... May be we will be looking forward over a simplified version of MPT76.....?
How about Ak12? Or Ak100?


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## Talwar e Pakistan

Horus said:


> MPT-76 is far from perfect as a battle rifle given our adverse climatic requirements ranging from sub zero arctic warfare conditions in Siachen to terrifying 50+ degree heat in Thar sector and salt water area of operations in run of kuch and Arabian Sea (Since Marines also use G-3s). At $1200 the price is "ridiculous" considering that we will have to produce almost one million service rifles for strategic requirements including Army, Marines, Rangers, FC, SPD SSU and other LEAs that operate 7.62mm rifles.
> 
> This is going to be a very expensive investment for us to replace our old rifles, produce new ones and then train our soldiers to use them to battlefield effectiveness levels. Shooters who have operated a certain rifle frame develop muscle memory which makes their shooting abilities instantaneous. It would take us a long time to achieve that with a new frame with new ergonomics.
> 
> Having said that, the MPT-76 is basically a Turkish redesign of hk-417. We simply cannot compromise on the quality of the rifle if we are going to pay top dollar price for each unit when produced at POF under license from the manufacturer. We are much better off taking both MPT-76 and hk-417 off the table. The rifle that suits us the best is FN-SCAR-H which has the same caliber as the G-3 so no replacement of millions of rounds needed, it also comes with a Short Barrel Rifle (SBR) variant, a Personal Defense Weapon (PDW) variant, a 5.56mm variant (for certain applications) as well as a Designated Marksman Rifle (DMR) variant, all will be developed on a SINGLE production line.
> 
> If we go for SCAR-L and H under licensed production, we can replace G-3s, SBRs as well as MP-5s and out of date DMRs in service all in one go. As a one off payment its going to cost us a lot to acquire the production license and machinery but in the long term its going to be cheaper for us to produce and train our soldiers on a single identical frame. On a side note, i think there is enough data available on the forum on this subject to put it in an article exploring the ideal replacement options for G-3 and MP-5s.
> 
> @Icarus @MilSpec @Hyperion @balixd @TaimiKhan


People think we are falling behind on funds - but the reality is we are getting excess and leftovers. 1 Million MPT-76s will cost us 1.2 billion - which is not that much for us - not to mention we can recycle or pass down our current weapons. We have to take advantage of our sudden inflation boast which put our defense budget up to 9.6 billion; so we need to replace our standard rifle by 2017-2018.



Tipu7 said:


> How much time is needed to fully replace old rifle with new ones?
> How much extra training is needed to expert New rifle?
> 
> MPT76 offer same solutions too.
> But that rifle look bit over engineered for PA terrain..... May be we will be looking forward over a simplified version of MPT76.....?
> How about Ak12? Or Ak100?


It would take around a decade to fully reequip the army and weeks for training not to mention constant drills for them to get used to it.


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## Kompromat

MPT-76 is a Turkish variant of hk-417. Why not buy original instead of a clone? - Talking a "Battle Rifle" you just can't compromise on metallurgy.



Talwar e Pakistan said:


> People think we are falling behind on funds - but the reality is we are getting excess and leftovers. 1 Million MPT-76s will cost us 1.2 billion - which is not that much for us - not to mention we can recycle or pass down our current weapons. We have to take advantage of our sudden inflation boast which put our defense budget up to 9.6 billion; so we need to replace our standard rifle by 2017-2018.
> 
> It would take around a decade to fully reequip the army and weeks for training not to mention constant drills for them to get used to it.

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## Talwar e Pakistan

Horus said:


> MPT-76 is a Turkish variant of hk-417. Why not buy original instead of a clone? - Talking a "Battle Rifle" you just can't compromise on metallurgy.


Because MPT-76 is redesigned and modified in proportion to their climate and their fighting style which is very similiar to ours.

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## MilSpec

Horus said:


> * Changing caliber would require replacing millions of rounds in stock.
> * I do not yet trust the milspec value of Chinese metallurgy in fire arms. They are catching up fast but not quite there yet.
> * Things become cheaper when they are mass produced, if we produce a million SCARs over next decade+ it will make it affordable. You just can't hand over a substandard firearm to a battle hardened soldier who knows its value like his breath, you'll kill his morale. He doesn't care if he is not given a vest but a cheap gun in his hands is just a betrayal.



Cmon now, Chinese made Tanks are OK and not Small arms, you will be surprised to know that small arms do not need exceptional metallurgical practices, and China is as of now King of Forging and casting processes, so they do have there ducks in the row... (I find it weird defending Chinese engineering Industry, PDF makes you say stuff you would never imagine your self saying lol) . China has price point advantage, but doesn't mean poor quality or reliability, canadains have been praising that qbz rifle for quite some time now.
Forget Chinese option or SCAR, support HIT/POF and work on your design, your guys have come up with ridiculously efficient solutions in the military domain, time and again.... This would be a worthwhile venture, trust me.

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## Zarvan

*Beretta unveils ARX 200 designated marksman rifle*
Like many Western forces, the Italian military’s experiences in Afghanistan have been a driving force in the acquisition of additional longer-range firepower at the infantry platoon level. The Italian Army will be deploying the Beretta ARX 200 designated marksman rifle, chambered for 7.62 x 51 mm, in order to meet this capability requirement. The long-awaited rifle was unveiled today at the DSEI 2015exhibition.




_The Beretta ARX 200 on display at DSEI 2015._

Externally, the Beretta ARX 200 draws its design cues from the ARX 160. It features a fully free-floated 16” barrel, polymer and aluminium construction, true ‘over-the-beach’ functionality, and a selective fire (semi-automatic and automatic) capability. The ARX 200 includes fully ambidextrous controls, and an ejection port issue seen in the ARX 160 design was also rectified. The ARX 200 differs in design from its predecessors, but shares some components, including the trigger mechanism. The rifle weighs 4.5 kg without its polymer 20 round magazine. Notably, the ARX 200 is stated as easily converted to 7.62 x 39 mm and 5.56 x 45 mm calibres, and can be fitted with an adapter so as to receive SR-25 type magazines. Full technical specifications are shown in the table below, and taken from Beretta’s product brochure.

An earlier Italian military document sighted by ARES stated that the ARX 200 would include a powered main (top) rail, using TWorx Ventures‘ ‘Intelligent Rail’ technology, powering the weapon’s new“Intelligent” Combat Sight (ICS)produced by Steiner-Optics¹. The Intelligent Rail system is powered by a central, removable battery pack weighing under 150 grams. The rails comply with MIL-STD-810 for various environmental stresses, including shock vibration. Intelligent Rail technology can be seen integrated into the ARX Carbine below, displayed at AUSA 2014, and a rail interface control system is also visible. Beretta’s available marketing materials for the ARX 200 at DSEI 2015 made no reference to the Intelligent Rail system, and it appeared to be absent from the rifle displayed.






_Beretta ARX Carbine at AUSA 2014, with integrated TWorx Ventures Intelligent Rail system_

The Steiner-Optics ICS features an adjustable reticule, laser range finder, inclinometer, and ballistic computer. According to an account by one early Italian Army user, it was “very effective”. The 6 x 40 sight is optimised for the 7.62 x 51 mm cartridge, according to Steiner, and is adjustable for windage and 120 MOA of elevation. The ICS was displayed for the first time at Enforce Tac 2015.

_


Steiner-Optics “Intelligent” Combat Sight (ICS) mounted on a Beretta ARX 160 displayed at Enforce Tac 2015._

According to a confidential military source, the Italian military was anticipating a Q1 2015 delivery of late-stage prototypes for final testing, and the rifles were expected to begin entering service sometime in or shortly after June 2015. While they are not yet in service, a Beretta representative at DSEI 2015 has confirmed that the final production model will be ready for the Italian military by the end of this year. The Italian military allocated 2.5 million EUR for ARX 200 rifles in 2014, with six anticipated orders of 120, 210, 210, 90, 270, and 270 rifles (total: 1,170 rifles). This Italian Ministry of Defence document discusses a purchase of 800 rifles for Italian special operations forces (SOF) in support of _Progetto Soldato Futuro_(SOFUTRA), the Italian Army’s future soldier programme.

The rifles will be issued on a one-per-section basis, and employed by an ‘expert marksman’ (_tiratore esperto_), with expected engagement ranges of 600 to 800 metres. It will remain fully compatible with components of _SOFUTRA,_ including the recently-adopted GLX 160 grenade launcher and associated Grenade Launcher Fire Control System (GLFCS).

*Beretta ARX 200 Technical Specifications*





*Calibre* 7.62 x 51 mm
(configurable for 5.56 x 45 mm & 7.62 x 39 mm)
*Locking system* Locked breech – Rotating bolt
*Operating system* Gas piston
*Barrel and rifling* 16” free-floated barrel
4 right-handed grooves at a pitch of 279mm (11”)
*Magazine* 20 round, polymer
Adapter available for SR-25 type magazines
*Length* Extended stock: 1000 mm
Collapsed stock: 890 mm
Folded stock: 730 mm
*Weight (without magazine)* 4.5 kg


*Beretta ARX 200 at DSEI 2015*












_ARX 200 photos copyright of ARES. ARX Carbine photo from here. Steiner-Optics ICS image from here. Technical specifications and side profile image of ARX 200 taken from Beretta’s promotional material (image has been adjusted for clarity)._

*1 *– _Originally designated the ‘Innovative Combat Sight’, and referred to in Beretta’s ARX 200 pamphlet at DSEI as the ‘Innovative Steiner Combat Sight’_

@Horus @Sulman Badshah @Tipu7

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## Sulman Badshah

Zarvan said:


> *Beretta unveils ARX 200 designated marksman rifle*
> Like many Western forces, the Italian military’s experiences in Afghanistan have been a driving force in the acquisition of additional longer-range firepower at the infantry platoon level. The Italian Army will be deploying the Beretta ARX 200 designated marksman rifle, chambered for 7.62 x 51 mm, in order to meet this capability requirement. The long-awaited rifle was unveiled today at the DSEI 2015exhibition.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _The Beretta ARX 200 on display at DSEI 2015._
> 
> Externally, the Beretta ARX 200 draws its design cues from the ARX 160. It features a fully free-floated 16” barrel, polymer and aluminium construction, true ‘over-the-beach’ functionality, and a selective fire (semi-automatic and automatic) capability. The ARX 200 includes fully ambidextrous controls, and an ejection port issue seen in the ARX 160 design was also rectified. The ARX 200 differs in design from its predecessors, but shares some components, including the trigger mechanism. The rifle weighs 4.5 kg without its polymer 20 round magazine. Notably, the ARX 200 is stated as easily converted to 7.62 x 39 mm and 5.56 x 45 mm calibres, and can be fitted with an adapter so as to receive SR-25 type magazines. Full technical specifications are shown in the table below, and taken from Beretta’s product brochure.
> 
> An earlier Italian military document sighted by ARES stated that the ARX 200 would include a powered main (top) rail, using TWorx Ventures‘ ‘Intelligent Rail’ technology, powering the weapon’s new“Intelligent” Combat Sight (ICS)produced by Steiner-Optics¹. The Intelligent Rail system is powered by a central, removable battery pack weighing under 150 grams. The rails comply with MIL-STD-810 for various environmental stresses, including shock vibration. Intelligent Rail technology can be seen integrated into the ARX Carbine below, displayed at AUSA 2014, and a rail interface control system is also visible. Beretta’s available marketing materials for the ARX 200 at DSEI 2015 made no reference to the Intelligent Rail system, and it appeared to be absent from the rifle displayed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Beretta ARX Carbine at AUSA 2014, with integrated TWorx Ventures Intelligent Rail system_
> 
> The Steiner-Optics ICS features an adjustable reticule, laser range finder, inclinometer, and ballistic computer. According to an account by one early Italian Army user, it was “very effective”. The 6 x 40 sight is optimised for the 7.62 x 51 mm cartridge, according to Steiner, and is adjustable for windage and 120 MOA of elevation. The ICS was displayed for the first time at Enforce Tac 2015.
> 
> _
> 
> 
> Steiner-Optics “Intelligent” Combat Sight (ICS) mounted on a Beretta ARX 160 displayed at Enforce Tac 2015._
> 
> According to a confidential military source, the Italian military was anticipating a Q1 2015 delivery of late-stage prototypes for final testing, and the rifles were expected to begin entering service sometime in or shortly after June 2015. While they are not yet in service, a Beretta representative at DSEI 2015 has confirmed that the final production model will be ready for the Italian military by the end of this year. The Italian military allocated 2.5 million EUR for ARX 200 rifles in 2014, with six anticipated orders of 120, 210, 210, 90, 270, and 270 rifles (total: 1,170 rifles). This Italian Ministry of Defence document discusses a purchase of 800 rifles for Italian special operations forces (SOF) in support of _Progetto Soldato Futuro_(SOFUTRA), the Italian Army’s future soldier programme.
> 
> The rifles will be issued on a one-per-section basis, and employed by an ‘expert marksman’ (_tiratore esperto_), with expected engagement ranges of 600 to 800 metres. It will remain fully compatible with components of _SOFUTRA,_ including the recently-adopted GLX 160 grenade launcher and associated Grenade Launcher Fire Control System (GLFCS).
> 
> *Beretta ARX 200 Technical Specifications*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Calibre* 7.62 x 51 mm
> (configurable for 5.56 x 45 mm & 7.62 x 39 mm)
> *Locking system* Locked breech – Rotating bolt
> *Operating system* Gas piston
> *Barrel and rifling* 16” free-floated barrel
> 4 right-handed grooves at a pitch of 279mm (11”)
> *Magazine* 20 round, polymer
> Adapter available for SR-25 type magazines
> *Length* Extended stock: 1000 mm
> Collapsed stock: 890 mm
> Folded stock: 730 mm
> *Weight (without magazine)* 4.5 kg
> 
> 
> *Beretta ARX 200 at DSEI 2015*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _ARX 200 photos copyright of ARES. ARX Carbine photo from here. Steiner-Optics ICS image from here. Technical specifications and side profile image of ARX 200 taken from Beretta’s promotional material (image has been adjusted for clarity)._
> 
> *1 *– _Originally designated the ‘Innovative Combat Sight’, and referred to in Beretta’s ARX 200 pamphlet at DSEI as the ‘Innovative Steiner Combat Sight’_
> 
> @Horus @Sulman Badshah @Tipu7


I think Barreta and western rifles are expensive to procure in large quantity


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## Zarvan

Sulman Badshah said:


> I think Barreta and western rifles are expensive to procure in large quantity


In Europe Italy is most easy option they don't raise any human rights issue and other crap and our Army Chief was also shown this Gun in his recent visit


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## TaimiKhan

Horus said:


> MPT-76 is far from perfect as a battle rifle given our adverse climatic requirements ranging from sub zero arctic warfare conditions in Siachen to terrifying 50+ degree heat in Thar sector and salt water area of operations in run of kuch and Arabian Sea (Since Marines also use G-3s). At $1200 the price is "ridiculous" considering that we will have to produce almost one million service rifles for strategic requirements including Army, Marines, Rangers, FC, SPD SSU and other LEAs that operate 7.62mm rifles.
> 
> This is going to be a very expensive investment for us to replace our old rifles, produce new ones and then train our soldiers to use them to battlefield effectiveness levels. Shooters who have operated a certain rifle frame develop muscle memory which makes their shooting abilities instantaneous. It would take us a long time to achieve that with a new frame with new ergonomics.
> 
> Having said that, the MPT-76 is basically a Turkish redesign of hk-417. We simply cannot compromise on the quality of the rifle if we are going to pay top dollar price for each unit when produced at POF under license from the manufacturer. We are much better off taking both MPT-76 and hk-417 off the table. The rifle that suits us the best is FN-SCAR-H which has the same caliber as the G-3 so no replacement of millions of rounds needed, it also comes with a Short Barrel Rifle (SBR) variant, a Personal Defense Weapon (PDW) variant, a 5.56mm variant (for certain applications) as well as a Designated Marksman Rifle (DMR) variant, all will be developed on a SINGLE production line.
> 
> If we go for SCAR-L and H under licensed production, we can replace G-3s, SBRs as well as MP-5s and out of date DMRs in service all in one go. As a one off payment its going to cost us a lot to acquire the production license and machinery but in the long term its going to be cheaper for us to produce and train our soldiers on a single identical frame. On a side note, i think there is enough data available on the forum on this subject to put it in an article exploring the ideal replacement options for G-3 and MP-5s.
> 
> @Icarus @MilSpec @Hyperion @balixd @TaimiKhan



In my opinion, there is nothing to loose in testing MPT-76. And the conditions you mentioned for us, from what i heard the turks kept those conditions in mind too and designed it accordingly. And just like SCAR, the MPT-76 has different variants too. Assault rifle, carbine for CQB & the sniper version. And i don't think turks will be compromising on the quality. 

Below is the link to the video of the weapon being tested.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Zarvan said:


> As it is now fully confirmed that Pakistan has decided to replace G3 with a new standard weapon. For this a board of Army officers led by a Major General will evaluate all major Guns used by leading militaries in the world and one of them will be chosen for Pakistan so it's time to discuss potential candidates and their features.
> By the way MPT-76 are first to come for evaluation.
> @WebMaster @Horus @Oscar @Irfan Baloch @balixd @Icarus @kaonalpha @syedali73 @Sulman Badshah @Wolfhound @nair @SpArK @GURU DUTT @Imran Khan @Arsalan @RescueRanger @Bratva @Slav Defence @ajpirzada @DESERT FIGHTER @



Long live Pak-Turk brotherhood!! Bir millet iki devlet (one nation two states)!!!!
InshaAllah MPT-76 (Milli Piyade Tufek - national infantry weapon) will be the finalist..

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## Zarvan

TaimiKhan said:


> In my opinion, there is nothing to loose in testing MPT-76. And the conditions you mentioned for us, from what i heard the turks kept those conditions in mind too and designed it accordingly. And just like SCAR, the MPT-76 has different variants too. Assault rifle, carbine for CQB & the sniper version. And i don't think turks will be compromising on the quality.
> 
> Below is the link to the video of the weapon being tested.


I think MPT-76 is already in Pakistan for testing


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## Cool_Soldier

I hope PA will try to procure any best selected Gun and then will produce it with licence production base.


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## Quwa

Horus said:


> MPT-76 is far from perfect as a battle rifle given our adverse climatic requirements ranging from sub zero arctic warfare conditions in Siachen to terrifying 50+ degree heat in Thar sector and salt water area of operations in run of kuch and Arabian Sea (Since Marines also use G-3s). At $1200 the price is "ridiculous" considering that we will have to produce almost one million service rifles for strategic requirements including Army, Marines, Rangers, FC, SPD SSU and other LEAs that operate 7.62mm rifles.
> 
> This is going to be a very expensive investment for us to replace our old rifles, produce new ones and then train our soldiers to use them to battlefield effectiveness levels. Shooters who have operated a certain rifle frame develop muscle memory which makes their shooting abilities instantaneous. It would take us a long time to achieve that with a new frame with new ergonomics.
> 
> Having said that, the MPT-76 is basically a Turkish redesign of hk-417. We simply cannot compromise on the quality of the rifle if we are going to pay top dollar price for each unit when produced at POF under license from the manufacturer. We are much better off taking both MPT-76 and hk-417 off the table. The rifle that suits us the best is FN-SCAR-H which has the same caliber as the G-3 so no replacement of millions of rounds needed, it also comes with a Short Barrel Rifle (SBR) variant, a Personal Defense Weapon (PDW) variant, a 5.56mm variant (for certain applications) as well as a Designated Marksman Rifle (DMR) variant, all will be developed on a SINGLE production line.
> 
> If we go for SCAR-L and H under licensed production, we can replace G-3s, SBRs as well as MP-5s and out of date DMRs in service all in one go. As a one off payment its going to cost us a lot to acquire the production license and machinery but in the long term its going to be cheaper for us to produce and train our soldiers on a single identical frame. On a side note, i think there is enough data available on the forum on this subject to put it in an article exploring the ideal replacement options for G-3 and MP-5s.
> 
> @Icarus @MilSpec @Hyperion @balixd @TaimiKhan


I agree. Yes, the FN SCAR-H is probably on the more expensive side, but the FN SCAR series is making headway now in a number of armed forces. It is after all a standard service arm now in the U.S. (USSOCOM). So in terms of maturity and combat effectiveness, the FN SCAR has the credibility.

I think many have come to the same conclusions in terms of the modularity (SBR, PDW & DMR) as well. In terms of cost, we're willing to let the PAF get away with - at minimum - a $378mn U.S. payment for F-16s (could be higher if FMF doesn't pull through). Moreover, we're spending a lot on COIN, if this draws down to an extent, the Army may benefit from peace dividends as well. Initiating the standard issue rifle program sometime in the next 3-5 years is doable.

It would be ideal if this could be approached from the standpoint of meeting the needs of each of the service arms, paramilitary, law enforcement, and regional commercial prospects. The initial cost of licensing the system and producing it domestically could be distributed widely, and the benefit of an advanced locally sourced solution - at competitive pricing no less - would be shared by all.

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## That Guy

Quwa said:


> I agree. Yes, the FN SCAR-H is probably on the more expensive side, but the FN SCAR series is making headway now in a number of armed forces. It is after all a standard service arm now in the U.S. (USSOCOM). So in terms of maturity and combat effectiveness, the FN SCAR has the credibility.
> 
> I think many have come to the same conclusions in terms of the modularity (SBR, PDW & DMR) as well. In terms of cost, we're willing to let the PAF get away with - at minimum - a $378mn U.S. payment for F-16s (could be higher if FMF doesn't pull through). Moreover, we're spending a lot on COIN, if this draws down to an extent, the Army may benefit from peace dividends as well. Initiating the standard issue rifle program sometime in the next 3-5 years is doable.
> 
> It would be ideal if this could be approached from the standpoint of meeting the needs of each of the service arms, paramilitary, law enforcement, and regional commercial prospects. The initial cost of licensing the system and producing it domestically could be distributed widely, and the benefit of an advanced locally sourced solution - at competitive pricing no less - would be shared by all.


@Horus

What's interesting is that, we do know for a fact that the FN SCAR has seen some limited use within Pakistani security circles, so it already does have some credibility within Pakistan.

Timeline Photos

Unless I'm mistaking them for a different rifle

[Edit]: Turns out, it IS a different gun. It's an ARX-160. I can't believe I made that mistake, how embarrassing.


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## Umair Nawaz

Look people, during Gen kyani's time MPT 76 was considered but it was decided to scrap that option because it was too expensive for mass production at POF. So as of now forget about MPT option.

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## Quwa

Umair Nawaz said:


> Look people, during Gen kyani's time MPT 76 was considered but it was decided to scrap that option because it was too expensive for mass product even at POF. So as of now forget about MPT option.


The Mehmetcik-1 was the rifle the PA could have looked at during Kayani's time, the MPT-76 is a 7.62mm development of it and came later in 2014.


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## Umair Nawaz

Quwa said:


> The Mehmetcik-1 was the rifle the PA could have looked at during Kayani's time, the MPT-76 is a 7.62mm development of it and came later in 2014.


this debate abt service riffle is going on since long within army and since gen kyani's last two years in this forum. MPT option has been under debate in this forum as well regardless of her being inservice since just 2014 in turkey.
Horus has also conformed it (prize) and my info was from a Friend in Air Defence.

Chances are of M-4 commando or M16


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## Hell hound

That Guy said:


> @Horus
> 
> What's interesting is that, we do know for a fact that the FN SCAR has seen some limited use within Pakistani security circles, so it already does have some credibility within Pakistan.
> 
> Timeline Photos
> 
> Unless I'm mistaking them for a different rifle


i think thats Beretta arx 160 





this is scar

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## NABZ

Zarvan said:


> *MKEK MPT-76 Mehmetçik-2 automatic rifle (Turkey)*
> 
> 
> 
> MKEK MPT-76 Mehmetçik-2 automatic rifle
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MKEK MPT-76 Mehmetçik-2 automatic rifle
> 
> 
> 
> *Caliber*
> 
> 7.62x51 NATO
> 
> *Action*
> 
> Gas operated
> 
> *Length, mm*
> 
> 920
> 
> *Barrel length, mm*
> 
> 410
> 
> *Weight, kg*
> 
> 4.1
> 
> *Rate of fire, rounds/minute*
> 
> 650
> 
> *Magazine capacity, rounds*
> 
> 20
> 
> 
> 
> Turkish defense manufacturer MKEK (_Makina ve Kimya Endüstrisi Kurumu_) began development of a new assault rifle for Turkish armed forces in around 2007. By 2008, MKEK produced a 5.56mm rifle called Mehmetçik-1, based on German HK 416 rifle. After several years of tests and development, Turkish army re-evaluated its requirements, and, based on its actual combat experience with various calibers in service (7.62x51 in HK G3, 7.62x39 in Kalashnikov AKM and 5.56x45 in HK 33), decided to stay with 7.62x51 NATO round for its next army rifle.
> As a result, in May 2014 MKEK delivered first batch of 7.62x51mm MKEK MPT-76 automatic rifles to Turkish army. “MPT” stands for _Milli Piyade Tüfeği_, or National Infantry Rifle in English. MKEK MPT-76 rifle appears to be visually and technically similar to German HK 417 rifle. Fate the 5.56mm Mehmetçik-1 rifle is uncertain at this point (May, 2014).
> 
> 
> 
> MKEK MPT-76 rifle is gas operated, select-fire weapon. It uses short stroke gas piston, located above the barrel, and AR-10/Ar-15 style rotary bolt, bolt carrier and return spring system. Aluminum alloy receiver also is based on AR-10/AR-15 design, with upper and lower halves being connected by two captive cross-pins. Rifle features M16-style charging handle, ambidextrous magazine release, bolt hold-open release and safety / fire selector controls. Ammunition is fed from 20-round box magazines, made from translucent polymer. Rifle is equipped with telescoping, adjustable shoulder stock. Front sight is mounted on the gas block and features folding base. Integral Picatinny rail on top of the receiver can hosts aperture-type rear sight (fully adjustable for range and windage), as well as quick-detachable carrying handle with “see-through” channel for standard iron sights plus its own set of iron sights for short-range applications (with U-shaped notch rear sight), built into the top of the handle. Carrying handle can be easily replaced with any type of red-dot, telescope or night sight with appropriate mountings. Additional Picatinny rails on the forend permit mounting of various accessories. Knife-bayonet may be attached for the barrel, if required.


does magazine capacity has any impact on firing rate?


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## Amaa'n

That Guy said:


> @Horus
> 
> What's interesting is that, we do know for a fact that the FN SCAR has seen some limited use within Pakistani security circles, so it already does have some credibility within Pakistan.
> 
> Timeline Photos
> 
> Unless I'm mistaking them for a different rifle


Those are beretta arx.....idk how those landed with them......


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## Immanuel

Horus said:


> MPT-76 is far from perfect as a battle rifle given our adverse climatic requirements ranging from sub zero arctic warfare conditions in Siachen to terrifying 50+ degree heat in Thar sector and salt water area of operations in run of kuch and Arabian Sea (Since Marines also use G-3s). At $1200 the price is "ridiculous" considering that we will have to produce almost one million service rifles for strategic requirements including Army, Marines, Rangers, FC, SPD SSU and other LEAs that operate 7.62mm rifles.
> 
> This is going to be a very expensive investment for us to replace our old rifles, produce new ones and then train our soldiers to use them to battlefield effectiveness levels. Shooters who have operated a certain rifle frame develop muscle memory which makes their shooting abilities instantaneous. It would take us a long time to achieve that with a new frame with new ergonomics.
> 
> Having said that, the MPT-76 is basically a Turkish redesign of hk-417. We simply cannot compromise on the quality of the rifle if we are going to pay top dollar price for each unit when produced at POF under license from the manufacturer. We are much better off taking both MPT-76 and hk-417 off the table. The rifle that suits us the best is FN-SCAR-H which has the same caliber as the G-3 so no replacement of millions of rounds needed, it also comes with a Short Barrel Rifle (SBR) variant, a Personal Defense Weapon (PDW) variant, a 5.56mm variant (for certain applications) as well as a Designated Marksman Rifle (DMR) variant, all will be developed on a SINGLE production line.
> 
> If we go for SCAR-L and H under licensed production, we can replace G-3s, SBRs as well as MP-5s and out of date DMRs in service all in one go. As a one off payment its going to cost us a lot to acquire the production license and machinery but in the long term its going to be cheaper for us to produce and train our soldiers on a single identical frame. On a side note, i think there is enough data available on the forum on this subject to put it in an article exploring the ideal replacement options for G-3 and MP-5s.
> 
> @Icarus @MilSpec @Hyperion @balixd @TaimiKhan



You won't get the SCAR for anything less than $2500, its quite an expensive rifle. Moreso, FN won't allow local manuafcture of this as SCAR was made with the help of US-SF by FN-US and Belgium, you will need Unkil's permit which Unkil won't give. You might get the HK but again very expensive, you're only choice is the Turkish stuff.


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## kaonalpha

Zarvan said:


> @kaonalpha Sir when we should expect to hear any news


No news but, the Indian sukhois are going to get swatted down like flies soon.

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## rockstar08

we can't we operate two different guns ? for two extreme temperatures like for Division stationed in Sindh can use a Gun which can work better in extreme heat , but for Azad Kashmir regiments we can give them different Variants or something different for Siachen Glaciers ?

Apart from Money what else can be problem to operate two different guns ?


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## Hell hound

rockstar08 said:


> we can't we operate two different guns ? for two extreme temperatures like for Division stationed in Sindh can use a Gun which can work better in extreme heat , but for Azad Kashmir regiments we can give them different Variants or something different for Siachen Glaciers ?
> 
> Apart from Money what else can be problem to operate two different guns ?


training cost,loss of flexibility in armed force,need for two types of manufacturing plants,with two tots as you won't buy this much rifles off the shelf

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## Pak_88

kaonalpha said:


> No news but, the Indian sukhois are going to get swatted down like flies soon.


How so?


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## madmusti

It´s just made for the next 50 Years 







Please think objective and then you will see best option even for PAF is MPT-76

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## muhammadali233

madmusti said:


> It´s just made for the next 50 Years
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please think objective and then you will see best option even for PAF is MPT-76


too much recoil,less manoeuvrable(too big at 36 inches),not battle proven and expensive 3-5k$ a piece. whereas M4 is cheaper already being used, battle proven ,shorter length means more manoeuvrable can be used for cqb also,cheaper then other alternatives,alot of gizmos can be attached, light weight at 2.9 kg whereas mpt 76 is 4.1 kg difference is clear.M-4 will and should be Pakistan main battle rifle.


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## madmusti

@muhammadali233

With a Terrain that Pakistan has an M4 Caribine Variant of the M16 will be a failure !

Even USA has replaced their M16 with MK-17´s

United States Special Operations Command – Wikipedia

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## That Guy

balixd said:


> Those are beretta arx.....idk how those landed with them......


Wow, they look so similar, but you're right. Except for the stock, everything else is different, just the same color.



Hell hound said:


> i think thats Beretta arx 160
> View attachment 294537
> 
> this is scar
> View attachment 294539


Yup, you're right. My mistake.


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## Kompromat

That is your opinion son, SCAR is a FN product developed for the US. It doesn't restrict FN from exporting it or an altered version to other states. Its normal business.



Immanuel said:


> You won't get the SCAR for anything less than $2500, its quite an
> expensive rifle. Moreso, FN won't allow local manuafcture of this as SCAR was made with the help of US-SF by FN-US and Belgium, you will need Unkil's permit which Unkil won't give. You might get the HK but again very expensive, you're only choice is the Turkish stuff.

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## Quwa

Horus said:


> That is your opinion son, SCAR is a FN product developed for the US. It doesn't restrict FN from exporting it or an altered version to other states. Its normal business.


FN could 'draw lessons' from the SCAR and 'develop' a 'new' solution for Pakistan. When you're going to scale production to a million units, you can spend a little in quasi-development (i.e FN taking SCAR, changing it a little, and selling it to Pakistan).

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## Hell hound

Horus said:


> That is your opinion son, SCAR is a FN product developed for the US. It doesn't restrict FN from exporting it or an altered version to other states. Its normal business.


so is it only in our wish list or army is seriously considering scar.its a great rifle and i am even willing to pay more taxes for it but i have a feeling in my gut that army will never buy it. hk 416 option seems more possible.


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## Kompromat

HK-416 is chambered in 5.56mm
SCAR-H = 7.62mm
SCAR-L = 5.56mm

Read my post above carefully where i have addressed the issue of caliber requirements. 



Hell hound said:


> so is it only in our wish list or army is seriously considering scar.its a great rifle and i am even willing to pay more taxes for it but i have a feeling in my gut that army will never buy it. hk 416 option seems more possible.

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## madmusti

Best replacement for a G3

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## django

madmusti said:


> Best replacement for a G3


A good looking and reliable weapon indeed, sincerely hope it is selected.

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## Amaa'n

@Horus @Zarvan i had the pleasure of looking at the pics of the weapons being tested, there is no winner yet.....and to my amazement, the weapons calibre ranged from 5.56 to 7.62x51.......current weapon system under trial are....SCAR-H , QBZ 03, AK 102, CZ 805 bren A2..there is no mk417 .....yep no HK :O

Edit - ok there is no MPT, the gun i thought is mpt, is actually not mpt......am having diffulty identifying the weapon....looks very similar to scar....

Edit 2: that gun is actually CZ 805 bren A2......how stupid of me.....and the Gun i thought is AK 12, is actually QBZ 03.......yep u read it correct

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## Hell hound

balixd said:


> @Horus @Zarvan i had the pleasure of looking at the pics of the weapons being tested, there is no winner yet.....and to my amazement, the weapons calibre ranged from 5.56 to 7.62x51.......current weapon system under trial are....SCAR-H , AK 12, AK 102, MPT ....there is no mk417 .....yep no HK :O
> 
> Edit - ok there is no MPT, the gun i thought is mpt, is actually not mpt......am having diffulty identifying the weapon....looks very similar to scar....


thanks for this info sir
and god pls be it scar H pls be it scar H pls pls pls(i know guys i am being little childish but i am dying to see this gun as our army's primary service weapon our boys deserve the best and we are willing to pay any price for that)


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## Sage

Zarvan said:


> View attachment 240839
> 
> Please identify the Gun which the Ranger on right is carrying
> @Horus @Icarus @kaonalpha @balixd @Irfan Baloch @The Guy and others @Wolfhound @Sulman Badshah


Its not MP-7 ...its just a Roni Kit for a 9mm pistol ...!


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## madmusti



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## Genghis khan1

I heard good things about MPT-76 but I don't like the way it recoils. I say Pakistan should go with SCAR-H, if they can produce it locally within decent price range. 5.56 round isn't meant for the warzone. It has to be 7.62.

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## Zarvan

kaonalpha said:


> No news but, the Indian sukhois are going to get swatted down like flies soon.


What do you mean by that ? Are you referring to some Air Defence system or a new Fighter Jet ?



balixd said:


> @Horus @Zarvan i had the pleasure of looking at the pics of the weapons being tested, there is no winner yet.....and to my amazement, the weapons calibre ranged from 5.56 to 7.62x51.......current weapon system under trial are....SCAR-H , QBZ 03, AK 102, CZ 805 bren A2..there is no mk417 .....yep no HK :O
> 
> Edit - ok there is no MPT, the gun i thought is mpt, is actually not mpt......am having diffulty identifying the weapon....looks very similar to scar....
> 
> Edit 2: that gun is actually CZ 805 bren A2......how stupid of me.....and the Gun i thought is AK 12, is actually QBZ 03.......yep u read it correct


The Guns you have mentioned in them SCAR H would be clear winner @Sulman Badshah @Tipu7


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## Zarvan

balixd said:


> @Horus @Zarvan i had the pleasure of looking at the pics of the weapons being tested, there is no winner yet.....and to my amazement, the weapons calibre ranged from 5.56 to 7.62x51.......current weapon system under trial are....SCAR-H , QBZ 03, AK 102, CZ 805 bren A2..there is no mk417 .....yep no HK :O
> 
> Edit - ok there is no MPT, the gun i thought is mpt, is actually not mpt......am having diffulty identifying the weapon....looks very similar to scar....
> 
> Edit 2: that gun is actually CZ 805 bren A2......how stupid of me.....and the Gun i thought is AK 12, is actually QBZ 03.......yep u read it correct







You mean this Gun I mean QBZ 03 ?


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## Tipu7

*QBZ 03 Assault Rifle: China*


*



*​

The QBZ-03 assault rifle, also known as the Type 03, is a Chinese gas operated, selective-fire weapon and is the latest assault rifle designed and developed for the 5.8×42mm DBP87 round.


Unlike the bullpup QBZ-95, the QBZ-03 is a weapon of conventional design and is loosely inspired by the Type 81 assault rifle]. The weapon is designed to be easily used by soldiers already familiar with previously issued rifles and machine guns. The QBZ-03 has a two-piece receiver largely made up of forged aluminum alloy with the stock, pistol grip, and handguards being made of a polymer compound. The gas block has a two position regulator, one for firing standard ammunition, the other to allow the use of rifle grenades. The sights are of a hooded front sight with a flip up rear diopter sight similar to the American M16 rifle. A scope rail is available to allow the use of various optics. The QBZ-03 has seen some issue within the People's Armed Police, People's Liberation Army Marine Corps, People's Liberation Army Air Force Paratroopers, and second line PLA ground units. An export-aimed version of the QBZ-03 also exists, first introduced in 2005 by the joint CJAIE (China Jing-An Import-Export) and Jiang-She Group Companies. The export version is chambered in 5.56×45mm NATO and feeds by STANAG magazines. The cyclic rate on the issued model is semi-automatic or fully automatic only, while the export model has an integrated three round burst mode. The type's most notable public display was by the PLA Airforce Airborne Troops during the October 1st 2009 60th Anniversary Parade. The assault rifle was also featured in the 2015 Victory Day Parade.





​

Live fire performance.................






​

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## Zarvan

Tipu7 said:


> View attachment 294796
> 
> *QBZ 03 Assault Rifle: China*
> 
> 
> *
> View attachment 294798
> *​
> 
> The QBZ-03 assault rifle, also known as the Type 03, is a Chinese gas operated, selective-fire weapon and is the latest assault rifle designed and developed for the 5.8×42mm DBP87 round.
> 
> 
> Unlike the bullpup QBZ-95, the QBZ-03 is a weapon of conventional design and is loosely inspired by the Type 81 assault rifle]. The weapon is designed to be easily used by soldiers already familiar with previously issued rifles and machine guns. The QBZ-03 has a two-piece receiver largely made up of forged aluminum alloy with the stock, pistol grip, and handguards being made of a polymer compound. The gas block has a two position regulator, one for firing standard ammunition, the other to allow the use of rifle grenades. The sights are of a hooded front sight with a flip up rear diopter sight similar to the American M16 rifle. A scope rail is available to allow the use of various optics. The QBZ-03 has seen some issue within the People's Armed Police, People's Liberation Army Marine Corps, People's Liberation Army Air Force Paratroopers, and second line PLA ground units. An export-aimed version of the QBZ-03 also exists, first introduced in 2005 by the joint CJAIE (China Jing-An Import-Export) and Jiang-She Group Companies. The export version is chambered in 5.56×45mm NATO and feeds by STANAG magazines. The cyclic rate on the issued model is semi-automatic or fully automatic only, while the export model has an integrated three round burst mode. The type's most notable public display was by the PLA Airforce Airborne Troops during the October 1st 2009 60th Anniversary Parade. The assault rifle was also featured in the 2015 Victory Day Parade.
> 
> 
> View attachment 294797
> ​
> 
> Live fire performance.................
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​


I really don't like this Gun

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## Tipu7

*SCAR H : United States*







The *Special Operations Forces Combat Assault Rifle* (*SCAR*)[11] is a gas-operated (short-stroke gas piston)[9] self-loading rifle with a rotating bolt and a firing rate of 625 rounds/min. It is constructed to be extremely modular, including barrel change to switch between calibres. The rifle was developed by FN Herstal (FNH) for the United States Special Operations Command (SOCOM) to satisfy the requirements of the SCAR competition. This family of rifles consist of two main types. The SCAR-L, for "light", is chambered in the 5.56×45mm NATO cartridge and the SCAR-H, for "heavy", fires 7.62×51mm NATO. Both are available in _Long Barrel_ and _Close Quarters Combat_ variants.

The FN SCAR systems completed low rate initial production testing in June 2007. After some delays, the first rifles began being issued to operational units in April 2009, and a battalion of the US 75th Ranger Regiment was the first large unit deployed into combat with 600 of the rifles in 2009. The US Special Operations Command later cancelled their purchase of the Mark 16 (or MK 16) SCAR-L and planned to remove the rifle from their inventory by 2013. However, they will continue to purchase the Mk 17 SCAR-H version, and also plan to purchase 5.56 mm conversion kits for the Mk 17, supplanting the loss of the Mk 16.

As of early 2015, the FN SCAR is in service in over 20 countries.


*Modular*

The FN SCAR®-H STD assault rifle is chambered in 7.62x51mm NATO caliber and is fitted with a standard 16" barrel.

The operator can replace the standard barrel with a short 13" barrel for close quarter combat in less than five minutes. The rifle is then called FN SCAR®-H CQC.



FN SCAR®-H STD



FN SCAR®-H CQC
The FN SCAR®-H STD assault rifle can be fitted with a FN40GL®-H grenade launcher mounted on the lower rail of the rifle, for additional firepower.





*Adaptable*

The FN SCAR® assault rifle features a foldable buttstock, an adjustable cheek piece (2 positions) and an adjustable length of pull (6 positions) to adapt to any operators.



Extended buttstock



Folded buttstock



Retracted buttstock

*Ambidextrous*

The FN SCAR® assault rifle features a reversible charging handle and an ambidextrous safety/firing selector and magazine release.
Right- and left-handed operators are at ease with any FN SCAR® assault rifle.

*Compact*

The FN SCAR®-H STD weights no more than 3.720 kg (without magazine) and does not exceed 721mm in length with folded buttstock.

*Accuracy*

The FN SCAR® assault rifle fires semi-automatic or full automatic maintaining high firing accuracy in either mode.

*Wide range of Accessories*

The FN SCAR® assault rifle features an upper Picatinny rail for optional day or night sighting systems (in-line mounting possible) and lower and side rails for optional accessories (e.g. light, laser, foregrip).
Further accessories are available, such as sling, bipod, carrying bag and blank firing system.




*Easy Field Stripping*

The FN SCAR® assault rifle consists of 5 major assemblies:

Buttstock
Receiver
Bolt carrier
Trigger module
Magazine
















*AK 102 : Russia*




​

The *AK-102* assault rifle is a shortened carbine version of the AK-101 rifle, which in turn was derived from the original AK-47 design and its AK-74 successor. The AK-102, AK-104, and AK-105 are very similar in design, the only difference being the caliber and corresponding magazine type. The AK-102 is an export version chambered to fire 5.56×45mm NATO ammunition.

Compared to the AK-101 and AK-103, which are full-size rifles of similar design, the AK-102, 104, and 105 feature shortened barrels that make them a middle ground between a full rifle and the more compact AKS-74U. Whereas the AK-10x rifles have longer barrels, full-length gas pistons, and solid, side-folding polymer stocks, the AKS-74U is shorter, and features a skeleton stock.

The rifle's receiver is made of stamped steel. The magazine is lighter, and more durable than older models, being made out of reinforced fiberglass. The butt stock is made of plastic, making it lighter, more durable, and it is hollow, allowing a field kit to be stored in side of it.[

The AK-102 uses an adjustable notched rear tangent iron sight calibrated in 100 m (109 yd) increments from 100 to 500 m (109 to 547 yd). The front sight is a post adjustable for elevation in the field. Horizontal adjustment is done by the factory or armory before issue. The AK-102 has a muzzle booster derived form the AKS-74U.

The 100-series AKs are produced by the Izhmash factories in Izhevsk, Russia.








Embedded media from this media site is no longer available

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## Tipu7

*CZ 805 Bren A2 : Czech Republic*


*




*​Displayed the first time during the IDEB 2010 exhibition in Bratislava, Slovakia, the modular automatic rifle CZ 805 BREN A1/A2 represents the latest continuance to the tradition of service weapons manufacture in Ceska zbrojovka a.s.,Unersky Brod, dating back to 1936. Combining exceptional experiences with the latest design processes and high technology made an outstanding and modern automatic weapon meeting all the needs of the 21° Century soldier. Easily reversible bolt operating handle allows this weapons to be used by left-handed shooters. The CZ 805 BREN rifle won at the turn of 2009/2010 in tender for the partial re-armament of the Czech Army with new rifles made in cal. 5.56x45 mm NATO. Under the contract signed in March 2010 with the Ministry of Defence of the Czech Republic the first supplies of these weapons to the Czech troops will be realized in November 2010.

*Variants
- CZ 805 BREN A1: *The modular automatic rifle CZ 805 BREN A1 in 5.56 x45 mm NATO calibre is the assault rifle version with a barrel length of 360 mm.* 
- CZ 805 BREN A2: *More compact version of modular automatic rifle CZ 805 BREN A1 in 5.56x45 mm NATO calibre with a shorter barrel, length 277 mm.


*Design*
The CZ 805 BREN rifle uses locked breech with rotating breech block and its automatic function is driven by combustion gases tapped from barrel with options for two-stage regulation of piston mechanism. Unified, easily removable trigger mechanism is provided with ambidextrous four-position selector of the firing mode (0-1-2-30). The weapon's receiver is along its whole top length, on both sides and the bottom side outfitted with accessory rails in accordance with MIL-STD-1913. Folding shoulder stock as ergonomic contours and can be adjusted for length and is provided with reversible cheek piece. The CZ 805 BREN assault rifle is manufactured from selection of quality steel, high-strength aluminium alloys and the latest construction plastic together with application of the most modern technologies for surface protection. Thanks to the sophisticated design and cutting-edge technology the CZ 805 BREN A2 carbine excels in high service life and reliability in all types of combat deployment. The modular design enables this weapon to be easily adapted to assault rifle (CZ 805 BREN A1) or carbine with shortened barrel (CZ 805 BREN A2).

*Ammunition*
The basic version is chambered in 5.56x45 mm NATO cartridge. The modular conception and unified anchoring system of interchangeable barrels allows an easy conversion to different calibre, currently 7.62x39 mm, and over some term also in 6.8x43 mm SPC Rem. Barrels are due to the muzzle thread adapted for attachment of flash hider, sound suppressor or dummy cartridges fire.
*Magazine*
Interchangeable magazine housing secures, besides the use of the original transparent magazine made by CZUB, also possibility to use all standard magazines for the M4/M16 weapons, including high-capacity magazines for automatic weapons of squad.
*Accessories*
The CZ 805 BREN A1/ A2 is fitted with folding mechanical sight, with the front sight adjustable for elevation and the rear sight for windage. The CZ 805 set also includes a multi-purpose combat / tactical knife, which is an original design made by Ceska zbrojovka a. s., and three point carry sling. The CZ 805 BREN can be also equipped with under slung grenade launcher designated as the CZ 805 G1 in 40x46 cal., which was developed specifically for the CZ 805 BREN with option for separate use.

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## Maarkhoor

Tipu7 said:


> View attachment 294796
> 
> *QBZ 03 Assault Rifle: China*
> 
> 
> *
> View attachment 294798
> *​
> 
> The QBZ-03 assault rifle, also known as the Type 03, is a Chinese gas operated, selective-fire weapon and is the latest assault rifle designed and developed for the 5.8×42mm DBP87 round.
> 
> 
> Unlike the bullpup QBZ-95, the QBZ-03 is a weapon of conventional design and is loosely inspired by the Type 81 assault rifle]. The weapon is designed to be easily used by soldiers already familiar with previously issued rifles and machine guns. The QBZ-03 has a two-piece receiver largely made up of forged aluminum alloy with the stock, pistol grip, and handguards being made of a polymer compound. The gas block has a two position regulator, one for firing standard ammunition, the other to allow the use of rifle grenades. The sights are of a hooded front sight with a flip up rear diopter sight similar to the American M16 rifle. A scope rail is available to allow the use of various optics. The QBZ-03 has seen some issue within the People's Armed Police, People's Liberation Army Marine Corps, People's Liberation Army Air Force Paratroopers, and second line PLA ground units. An export-aimed version of the QBZ-03 also exists, first introduced in 2005 by the joint CJAIE (China Jing-An Import-Export) and Jiang-She Group Companies. The export version is chambered in 5.56×45mm NATO and feeds by STANAG magazines. The cyclic rate on the issued model is semi-automatic or fully automatic only, while the export model has an integrated three round burst mode. The type's most notable public display was by the PLA Airforce Airborne Troops during the October 1st 2009 60th Anniversary Parade. The assault rifle was also featured in the 2015 Victory Day Parade.
> 
> 
> View attachment 294797
> ​
> 
> Live fire performance.................
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​


Recoil is very low impressive weapon i believe based on AK.


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## Tipu7

Zarvan said:


> I really don't like this Gun


It is ugly ................. look very powerless compared to others .............. but it is going to replace QBZ 97 in PLA as standard assault Rifle.................








MaarKhoor said:


> i believe based on AK.


Ak 12 .................................
Since we are just looking at base model so it is looking ugly and too simple ............... Arm it with its goodies and you have bad @$$ looking rifle...............

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## That Guy

balixd said:


> @Horus @Zarvan i had the pleasure of looking at the pics of the weapons being tested, there is no winner yet.....and to my amazement, the weapons calibre ranged from 5.56 to 7.62x51.......current weapon system under trial are....SCAR-H , QBZ 03, AK 102, CZ 805 bren A2..there is no mk417 .....yep no HK :O
> 
> Edit - ok there is no MPT, the gun i thought is mpt, is actually not mpt......am having diffulty identifying the weapon....looks very similar to scar....
> 
> Edit 2: that gun is actually CZ 805 bren A2......how stupid of me.....and the Gun i thought is AK 12, is actually QBZ 03.......yep u read it correct


I'm surprised that HK is absent, considering Pakistan and HK's close working relationship.

If this is really the competition, then the SCAR-H has already won, and they're just holding the competition as a formality.

@Horus @waz @Quwa

Any idea why HK would be a no show? It's a big contract, I doubt it has anything to do with money.

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## Zarvan

Tipu7 said:


> It is ugly ................. look very powerless compared to others .............. but it is going to replace QBZ 97 in PLA as standard assault Rifle.................
> 
> View attachment 294816
> 
> 
> 
> Ak 12 .................................
> Since we are just looking at base model so it is looking ugly and too simple ............... Arm it with its goodies and you have bad @$$ looking rifle...............







Berreta ARX 160 and Berreta ARX 200 should be tested and also MPT 76 @MastanKhan



That Guy said:


> I'm surprised that HK is absent, considering Pakistan and HK's close working relationship.
> 
> If this is really the competition, then the SCAR-H has already won, and they're just holding the competition as a formality.
> 
> @Horus @waz @Quwa
> 
> Any idea why HK would be a no show? It's a big contract, I doubt it has anything to do with money.


Germany can't be trusted at all they may back off in the name of human rights


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## That Guy

Zarvan said:


> Berreta ARX 160 and Berreta ARX 200 should be tested and also MPT 76 @MastanKhan
> 
> 
> Germany can't be trusted at all they may back off in the name of human rights


Germany has, for quite a while, been willing and wanting to sell to Pakistan. The problem has always been finances. The huge relationship between HK and Pakistan is proof of Germany's reliability.

Never bring "trust" first into a business deal. This is why India is ahead, and why the world respects India. If trust is your first issue, you'll never gain it. You have to build trust, and the only way you can do that is by signing professionally conducted business deals.

Germany can't be trusted, just as much as Pakistan, in fact, Pakistan is worse.

Besides, if Germany backs off, it'll hurt them. Pakistan can always reward the contract to the second place winner.


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## CHI RULES

That Guy said:


> I'm surprised that HK is absent, considering Pakistan and HK's close working relationship.
> 
> If this is really the competition, then the SCAR-H has already won, and they're just holding the competition as a formality.
> 
> @Horus @waz @Quwa
> 
> Any idea why HK would be a no show? It's a big contract, I doubt it has anything to do with money.



My be German Govt pressure is reason other one is perhaps G3s poor performance in mountain warfare.


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## Zarvan

That Guy said:


> Germany has, for quite a while, been willing and wanting to sell to Pakistan. The problem has always been finances. The huge relationship between HK and Pakistan is proof of Germany's reliability.
> 
> Never bring "trust" first into a business deal. This is why India is ahead, and why the world respects India. If trust is your first issue, you'll never gain it. You have to build trust, and the only way you can do that is by signing professionally conducted business deals.
> 
> Germany can't be trusted, just as much as Pakistan, in fact, Pakistan is worse.
> 
> Besides, if Germany backs off, it'll hurt them. Pakistan can always reward the contract to the second place winner.


If we are testing FN SCAR than money is not the issue . I think Pakistan is not ready to trust Germany otherwise I can't see any reason why HK 417 won't be tested. By the way @balixd can you try to get the list of Guns which we are testing I mean full list not just the pictures you saw because it's impossible that we won't test HK 417 and MPT-76 
@Sulman Badshah @Tipu7

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## Kompromat

After witnessing evidence by @balixd - we can confirm that PA is indeed testing SCAR-H with UBGL, CZ-806Bren2 and AK-103.

@Zarvan @Hyperion @Icarus @Bratva @MilSpec

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## Quwa

Horus said:


> After witnessing evidence by @balixd - we can confirm that PA is indeed testing SCAR-H with UBGL, CZ-806Bren2 and AK-103.
> 
> @Zarvan @Hyperion @Icarus @Bratva @MilSpec


I think HK's absence could do with the competition being in the advanced stages, these guns are the final crop. I'm surprised the CZ-806Bren2 is there considering it is 5.56mm, must be a very good rifle, especially since it is the only 5.56mm one of the lot. Perhaps CZ is also competitive on the cost front and/or may be willing to develop a 7.62mm variant?

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## Kompromat

Or perhaps Army wants SCAR-H but not L for some reason? - This is precisely what confused me though. Since the SCAR-H is the only modern carbine in 7.62mm competing against AK-103, we already know the winner. As for Bren-2, it continues to puzzle me unless Army is testing it directly against SCAR-L for performance's sake. 



Quwa said:


> I think HK's absence could do with the competition being in the advanced stages, these guns are the final crop. I'm surprised the CZ-806Bren2 is there considering it is 5.56mm, must be a very good rifle, especially since it is the only 5.56mm one of the lot. Perhaps CZ is also competitive on the cost front and/or may be willing to develop a 7.62mm variant?

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## Genghis khan1

ali_raza said:


> the best ones are AK12 or M4 dono me se ek lele


AK are not accurate, M4 are short barrel and not suitable as a standard infantry weapons. If you meant M16A4 than they fire 5.56 round, which is too light for a real fight. US soldiers and marines learned from Iraq war that a single 5.56 would not put down an enemy. Sometimes Iraqi fighters would take cocktail of adrenaline drug before a fire fight, in that case even 3 to 4 round would not put down an enemy fighters. 7.62 round is a must for any real firefight.
@Horus 7.62 round is heavy and more stable in flight making it more accurate and it delivers a heavier punch. Recoil is bit problem, but i think SCAR manages that problem well.


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## Quwa

Horus said:


> Or perhaps Army wants SCAR-H but not L for some reason? - This is precisely what confused me though. Since the SCAR-H is the only modern carbine in 7.62mm competing against AK-103, we already know the winner. As for Bren-2, it continues to puzzle me unless Army is testing it directly against SCAR-L for performance's sake.


Is it possible they have the 7.62mm version of the Bren-2? The company website seems to suggest this is possible.

_The 805 Bren is CZ’s answer to the need for a modular and reliable piston-operated selective-fire rifle. It is specifically built to switch between calibers and even magazine systems easily. Removing the barrel/piston system only involves 6 easily-accessible screws. Change the bolt-face and the rifle can shoot a range of different cartridges (5.56×45 and 7.62×39 are currently on contract and many more are possible).

http://cz-usa.com/product/cz-805-bren-a2/_

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## Zarvan

Horus said:


> After witnessing evidence by @balixd - we can confirm that PA is indeed testing SCAR-H with UBGL, CZ-806Bren2 and AK-103.
> 
> @Zarvan @Hyperion @Icarus @Bratva @MilSpec


It seem we are just testing other Guns for complimentary or just fill the chart. None of these Guns can beat FN SCAR their is no chance of that. By the way their should be more Guns where is Berreta ARX 160 ? Also MPT 76 ?

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## Genghis khan1

Considering, more and more militaries -including India- are issuing their soldiers protective vest with SAPI plates inserts for 7.62 rounds. Only visible kill spot left from a distance is the head. Unless at very close range, 5.56 usually don't penetrates soldier's helmet.


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## Amaa'n

Quwa said:


> I think HK's absence could do with the competition being in the advanced stages, these guns are the final crop. I'm surprised the CZ-806Bren2 is there considering it is 5.56mm, must be a very good rifle, especially since it is the only 5.56mm one of the lot. Perhaps CZ is also competitive on the cost front and/or may be willing to develop a 7.62mm variant?


You are forgetting that another gun being tested in 5.56 is Norinco QBZ 03, so CZ is not alone into the competition......as far as HK is concerned then i am of view that these are initial trails and the first batch, there may be another batch coming.....nothing is certain at this point......



Quwa said:


> Is it possible they have the 7.62mm version of the Bren-2? The company website seems to suggest this is possible.
> 
> _The 805 Bren is CZ’s answer to the need for a modular and reliable piston-operated selective-fire rifle. It is specifically built to switch between calibers and even magazine systems easily. Removing the barrel/piston system only involves 6 easily-accessible screws. Change the bolt-face and the rifle can shoot a range of different cartridges (5.56×45 and 7.62×39 are currently on contract and many more are possible).
> 
> http://cz-usa.com/product/cz-805-bren-a2/_


It is very clear from the picture that it is 5.56 variant......mag, barrel and discarge port speak for themeselves about the calibre in question....

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## Zarvan

@balixd A friend is claiming that SSG are testing MPT 76 !!!! Can you confirm it ?



balixd said:


> You are forgetting that another gun being tested in 5.56 is Norinco QBZ 03, so CZ is not alone into the competition......as far as HK is concerned then i am of view that these are initial trails and the first batch, there may be another batch coming.....nothing is certain at this point......
> 
> 
> It is very clear from the picture that it is 5.56 variant......mag, barrel and discarge port speak for themeselves about the calibre in question....


Where is Berrtea ARX 160 ?


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## Amaa'n

Genghis khan1 said:


> AK are not accurate, M4 are short barrel and not suitable as a standard infantry weapons. If you meant M16A4 than they fire 5.56 round, which is too light for a real fight. US soldiers and marines learned from Iraq war that a single 5.56 would not put down an enemy. Sometimes Iraqi fighters would take cocktail of adrenaline drug before a fire fight, in that case even 3 to 4 round would not put down an enemy fighters. 7.62 round is a must for any real firefight.
> @Horus 7.62 round is heavy and more stable in flight making it more accurate and it delivers a heavier punch. Recoil is bit problem, but i think SCAR manages that problem well.


Initially when the letter was sent out it was said that they will be replacing Service rifle, but considering the range of variants being tested, i am wondering what if our Scope has been widened??? 
@Horus @Zarvan we are not considering the newly raised Special Secuirty Division of Pak army which has been tasked to protect CPEC.....we cannot expect them to run aroung with 18" G3 or more heavier SCARH, considering the weightof 7.62 x51.... . so we switch the calibre....and Let me add herethat the Weapon being tested for 7.62 x 51 is not 18" variant but 16" variant or perhaps 14"......but its notthelong barrel variantof SCARH



Zarvan said:


> @balixd A friend is claiming that SSG are testing MPT 76 !!!! Can you confirm it ?
> 
> 
> Where is Berrtea ARX 160 ?


I am not sure, but what i know for certain is that they are among the systems being test by the Military, and i dont see why SSG would conduct seperate trails for this, as branch mandated to the trails is different......

Since we are talking abouttrails, then nust to add here, i have heard the word on the "Street" that F.C has adopted locally manufactured 9Mm pistol by Daudsons......


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## _NOBODY_

@Horus @Quwa @Bratva @WebMaster @balixd @Zarvan 
Is Pakistan Army interested in Beretta ARX 160 or Beretta ARX 200.


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## Kompromat

Not that i know of. ARX-160 is however in service with Sindh Police's SSU.



TheGreatOne said:


> @Horus @Quwa @Bratva @WebMaster @balixd @Zarvan
> Is Pakistan Army interested in Beretta ARX 160 or Beretta ARX 200.

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## Zarvan

@balixd if the Guns you mentioned are only Guns being tested than FN SCAR will win. Friend also claims FN SCAR was offered as part of CSF


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## Amaa'n

Zarvan said:


> @balixd if the Guns you mentioned are only Guns being tested than FN SCAR will win. Friend also claims FN SCAR was offered as part of CSF


Because of time constraint, am unable to visit the range inperson otherwise its only an hour drive from islamabad......but as i have been informed, these are the only participants.....i dont see thrpe resons. They would share the pic of all weap8ns but miss the hk and mpt

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## Zarvan

balixd said:


> Because of time constraint, am unable to visit the range inperson otherwise its only an hour drive from islamabad......but as i have been informed, these are the only participants.....i dont see thrpe resons. They would share the pic of all weap8ns but miss the hk and mpt


When you are allowed to share pics on forum please share them


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## RAMPAGE

balixd said:


> Because of time constraint, am unable to visit the range inperson otherwise its only an hour drive from islamabad......but as i have been informed, these are the only participants.....i dont see thrpe resons. They would share the pic of all weap8ns but miss the hk and mpt


So you're saying that it is probable that MPT-76 and HK-417 are not currently being tested?

Yaar I do hope that is FN-Scar H. Not just because we've heard good things about it but also because the Americans provide unmatched customer support and service.

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## Hell hound

RAMPAGE said:


> So you're saying that it is probable that MPT-76 and HK-417 are not currently being tested?
> 
> Yaar I do hope that is FN-Scar H. Not just because we've heard good things about it but also because the Americans provide unmatched customer support and service.


its Belgian weapon not american they just make few adjustments to it to suit their need we can demand that too from FN. in end it will be FN that will provide tot and support for gun except american developed optics or accessories.these belong to america and are their's to sell.

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## RAMPAGE

Hell hound said:


> its Belgian weapon not american they just make few adjustments to it to suit their need we can demand that too from FN. in end it will be FN that will provide tot and support for gun except american developed optics or accessories.these belong to america and are their's to sell.


Produced by FN's subsidiary based in US.


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## Tipu7

Just uploading some cool pics of all four rifles 

AK 102-103










QBZ 03









SCAR-H









CZ 805 Bren A2

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## Super Falcon

Still no concrete evidance what options really been tested hope HK 416 picked because it is unmatched german tech eye closed u buy german tech no match in the world u found of german tech so bellieve what is historically best producer whom we are using G 3A3 and MP 5 what else i should say to satisfy all u and PAK ARMY


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## Amaa'n

Super Falcon said:


> Still no concrete evidance what options really been tested hope HK 416 picked because it is unmatched german tech eye closed u buy german tech no match in the world u found of german tech so bellieve what is historically best producer whom we are using G 3A3 and MP 5 what else i should say to satisfy all u and PAK ARMY


 really, you still dont believe, what i have said?? HK is not on the current lot being tested.....the chances of it being tested currently is 5% and 95% that HK is out.....concrete evidence has been shared with admin......i force people to agree with me, i can just present what i know....whether people believe me or not, is a different story.....



RAMPAGE said:


> So you're saying that it is probable that MPT-76 and HK-417 are not currently being tested?
> 
> Yaar I do hope that is FN-Scar H. Not just because we've heard good things about it but also because the Americans provide unmatched customer support and service.


no, what i have said is they are not being tested and i am certain they are not here yet.



Zarvan said:


> When you are allowed to share pics on forum please share them


I receive pictures of pretty intresting things but i usually dont even mention them here on forum out of security concerns........

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## Quwa

For the record I hope PA selects the SCAR-H as well. Not only is it a relatively mature and trusted weapon (for a new rifle), but the modularity aspect is key. We can re-adapt the core SCAR for 5.56mm if need be, or as PDW, or even DMG. The single design can be scaled and adapted for practically each and every one of Pakistan's service arms.

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## Sulman Badshah



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## Bratva

balixd said:


> really, you still dont believe, what i have said?? HK is not on the current lot being tested.....the chances of it being tested currently is 5% and 95% that HK is out.....concrete evidence has been shared with admin......i force people to agree with me, i can just present what i know....whether people believe me or not, is a different story.....
> 
> no, what i have said is they are not being tested and i am certain they are not here yet.
> 
> 
> I receive pictures of pretty intresting things but i usually dont even mention them here on forum out of security concerns........




What are the chances nothing comes out of this trials because our debt is going to be matured soon and Many programs would be put on hold or deferred


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## Amaa'n

Bratva said:


> What are the chances nothing comes out of this trials because our debt is going to be matured soon and Many programs would be put on hold or deferred


This is what i have said to horus as well, scar may look good on the paper but still it is going to cost us all lot and budget put a constraint on our purchasing power --- but then dont forget, we are not going to replace our weapons overnight.....it is a very long process, taking years or perhaps decade to switch from one rifle to another......nust take for instance, there are still units with G3 wooden furniture, they did not even had the stock replaced with polymer and free floating......i see such weapons in pindi cannt and during my visit to AJK last year, and stayed in army mess at Keran.....the frontline troops were still using the wooden furniture ones.....we havnt been able to upgrade the existing seapon platform, forget about replacement......
But then this is a plus point, as it wont be effected by our current financial crisis......chief would not have given the order if it was not thought out

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## alimobin memon

latest ak series rifle if im not wrong 100 series latest variant has 0 recoil I saw its video cant remember on which post.


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## RAMPAGE

balixd said:


> This is what i have said to horus as well, scar may look good on the paper but still it is going to cost us all lot and budget put a constraint on our purchasing power --- but then dont forget, we are not going to replace our weapons overnight.....it is a very long process, taking years or perhaps decade to switch from one rifle to another......nust take for instance, there are still units with G3 wooden furniture, they did not even had the stock replaced with polymer and free floating......i see such weapons in pindi cannt and during my visit to AJK last year, and stayed in army mess at Keran.....the frontline troops were still using the wooden furniture ones.....we havnt been able to upgrade the existing seapon platform, forget about replacement......
> But then this is a plus point, as it wont be effected by our current financial crisis......chief would not have given the order if it was not thought out


Yaar any idea about Scar H's expected unit cost? The MSRP for the semi-automatic civilian variant is ridiculously high.

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## Quwa

balixd said:


> This is what i have said to horus as well, scar may look good on the paper but still it is going to cost us all lot and budget put a constraint on our purchasing power --- but then dont forget, we are not going to replace our weapons overnight.....it is a very long process, taking years or perhaps decade to switch from one rifle to another......nust take for instance, there are still units with G3 wooden furniture, they did not even had the stock replaced with polymer and free floating......i see such weapons in pindi cannt and during my visit to AJK last year, and stayed in army mess at Keran.....the frontline troops were still using the wooden furniture ones.....we havnt been able to upgrade the existing seapon platform, forget about replacement......
> But then this is a plus point, as it wont be effected by our current financial crisis......chief would not have given the order if it was not thought out


So there are two issues.

1. The cost of actually replacing all of the old rifles. I agree, this can and probably will take a long time. In fact, even armies with more resources than Pakistan are not rushing the process. The Turks, Czechs, etc, are buying new assault rifles in batches of 15,000 to 20,000 a year, which costs them an average of $30 million a year. This is doable, even for the Pakistan Army, which will likely scale production for several decades, at least.

2. The issue that Pakistan may face problems with is the up front cost of acquiring the IP and production facilities. This could be addressed by distributing the burden between each of the relevant service arms, e.g. Army, Frontier Corps, Rangers, LEAs, Navy, Air Force, etc. Every one of them can and will benefit from having this rifle locally produced.

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## Basel

Horus said:


> Or perhaps Army wants SCAR-H but not L for some reason? - This is precisely what confused me though. Since the SCAR-H is the only modern carbine in 7.62mm competing against AK-103, we already know the winner. As for Bren-2, it continues to puzzle me unless Army is testing it directly against SCAR-L for performance's sake.



PA may be testing it to replace MP-5s and SSG also use M-4, so Bren-2 can be tested against that too.


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## That Guy

CHI RULES said:


> My be German Govt pressure is reason other one is perhaps G3s poor performance in mountain warfare.


Probably not it. When the G3 was first chosen, mountain warfare was not that big of a deal, because Pakistan's main enemy was India, and wars in mountainous areas between the two only occurred in the north. Today's requirements are different, and a number of HK rifles fulfill that requirement.

I also doubt that the German government was against selling to Pakistan. Let's not forget, Pakistan manufactures a number of German HK systems, and Germany, just 4-5 years ago tried to sell Pakistan a few modern submarines (Pakistan had no money).

The relationship between German arms manufacturers and Pakistan defense industry is very close. To this day, Pakistan continues to manufacture German arms, for sale around the world.



Zarvan said:


> If we are testing FN SCAR than money is not the issue . I think Pakistan is not ready to trust Germany otherwise I can't see any reason why HK 417 won't be tested. By the way @balixd can you try to get the list of Guns which we are testing I mean full list not just the pictures you saw because it's impossible that we won't test HK 417 and MPT-76
> @Sulman Badshah @Tipu7



Germany has less reasons to trust Pakistan, rather than the other way around. Pakistan trusts Germany, but trust isn't how you start a business deal. You go in expecting the other side to screw you over, that is something India and China understand, but Pakistan continues to fail and understanding.



Genghis khan1 said:


> AK are not accurate, M4 are short barrel and not suitable as a standard infantry weapons. If you meant M16A4 than they fire 5.56 round, which is too light for a real fight. US soldiers and marines learned from Iraq war that a single 5.56 would not put down an enemy. Sometimes Iraqi fighters would take cocktail of adrenaline drug before a fire fight, in that case even 3 to 4 round would not put down an enemy fighters. 7.62 round is a must for any real firefight.
> @Horus 7.62 round is heavy and more stable in flight making it more accurate and it delivers a heavier punch. Recoil is bit problem, but i think SCAR manages that problem well.


Just a small correction: I wouldn't say that the AK is inaccurate, rather it is accurate up to a certain range, the samething applies to every other gun, including the AK's main rival, the M-16.

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## That Guy

Bratva said:


> What are the chances nothing comes out of this trials because our debt is going to be matured soon and Many programs would be put on hold or deferred


Um, I'd like to correct you there. If you actually believe that $50 billion debt figure, then I can (thankfully) tell you that the figure is wrong. The Pakistan's finance Ministry clarified the facts, and shut down Bloomberg's misleading article.

Finance Ministry denies report on debt situation of Pakistan | Islamabad | thenews.com.pk

Pakistan's economy is going to be fine.

Besides, even if we were to believe bloomberg, both the IMF and World Bank has already stated that they will back Pakistan's efforts on avoiding defaulting on maturing debt.

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## Genghis khan1

That Guy said:


> Probably not it. When the G3 was first chosen, mountain warfare was not that big of a deal, because Pakistan's main enemy was India, and wars in mountainous areas between the two only occurred in the north. Today's requirements are different, and a number of HK rifles fulfill that requirement.
> 
> I also doubt that the German government was against selling to Pakistan. Let's not forget, Pakistan manufactures a number of German HK systems, and Germany, just 4-5 years ago tried to sell Pakistan a few modern submarines (Pakistan had no money).
> 
> The relationship between German arms manufacturers and Pakistan defense industry is very close. To this day, Pakistan continues to manufacture German arms, for sale around the world.
> 
> 
> 
> Germany has less reasons to trust Pakistan, rather than the other way around. Pakistan trusts Germany, but trust isn't how you start a business deal. You go in expecting the other side to screw you over, that is something India and China understand, but Pakistan continues to fail and understanding.
> 
> 
> Just a small correction: I wouldn't say that the AK is inaccurate, rather it is accurate up to a certain range, the same thing applies to every other gun, including the AK's main rival, the M-16.


Most urban firefights take place within 300m. A genuine Russian made AK in steady hands will do just fine in this scenario. But when we are talking about Pakistan Army Standard Issue weapons, you are talking about hills of Kashmirs, terrain of Tribal area,Balochistan, vast plains of Punjab and open deserts of Sindh. AK will barely hit a target above 300 meters in ideal conditions, let alone in a warzone. *PA needs 16in SCAR-H Standard for 600 m (660 yd).* PA can fight ragtag terrorist with AKs but when we are talking about another professional military across the LOC with calibrated standard issue weapon, scope and a bullet proof vest. You need a rifle that can outrange their INSAS and AKs with accuracy, can have enough velocity to penetrate their helmet even after flying 500m (since penetrating vest is unlikely ) and can maintain it's straight flight even on a windy day.
@balixd

Some basic difference b/w 7.62 and 5.56 round.
What are some differences between 5.56x45mm and 7.62x51mm ammunition from a practical, real world perspective? - Quora

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## That Guy

balixd said:


> This is what i have said to horus as well, scar may look good on the paper but still it is going to cost us all lot and budget put a constraint on our purchasing power --- but then dont forget, we are not going to replace our weapons overnight.....it is a very long process, taking years or perhaps decade to switch from one rifle to another......nust take for instance, there are still units with G3 wooden furniture, they did not even had the stock replaced with polymer and free floating......i see such weapons in pindi cannt and during my visit to AJK last year, and stayed in army mess at Keran.....the frontline troops were still using the wooden furniture ones.....we havnt been able to upgrade the existing seapon platform, forget about replacement......
> But then this is a plus point, as it wont be effected by our current financial crisis......chief would not have given the order if it was not thought out


Well, it's not like Pakistan would be buying the rifle all at once, it'll be batch by batch. Inducting a new standard rifle starts from the bottom. New batches of recruits are usually the first to get their hands on the rifles, so the number manufactured and sold to the military starts small anyway.

Induction also takes years, take the IMI Tavor; the Tavor has been in Israeli service since 2003, but it took 6+ years for it to completely replace a majority of Israeli standard issue rifles. In 2012, The Israelis finally announced that they would start equipping their reserve forces with the Tavor, that's 9 years since coming into service.



Genghis khan1 said:


> Most urban firefights take place within 300m. A genuine Russian made AK in steady hands will do just fine in this scenario. But when we are talking about Pakistan Army Standard Issue weapons, you are talking about hills of Kashmirs, terrain of Tribal,Balochistan, vast plains of Punjab and open deserts of Sindh. AK will simply will barely hit a target above 300 meters in ideal conditions, let alone in a warzone. *PA needs 16in SCAR-H Standard for 600 m (660 yd).* PA can fight ragtag terrorist with AKs but when we are talking about another professional military across the LOC with calibrated standard issue weapon, scope and a bullet proof vest. You need a rifle that can outrange their INSAS and AKs with accuracy, can have enough velocity to penetrate their helmet even after flying 500m (since penetrating vest is unlikely ) and can maintain it's straight flight even on a windy day.
> @balixd
> 
> Some basic difference b/w 7.62 and 5.56 round.
> What are some differences between 5.56x45mm and 7.62x51mm ammunition from a practical, real world perspective? - Quora


I agree, but my point is that calling any gun "inaccurate" is inaccurate.

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## TaimiKhan

balixd said:


> @Horus @Zarvan i had the pleasure of looking at the pics of the weapons being tested, there is no winner yet.....and to my amazement, the weapons calibre ranged from 5.56 to 7.62x51.......current weapon system under trial are....SCAR-H , QBZ 03, AK 102, CZ 805 bren A2..there is no mk417 .....yep no HK :O
> 
> Edit - ok there is no MPT, the gun i thought is mpt, is actually not mpt......am having diffulty identifying the weapon....looks very similar to scar....
> 
> Edit 2: that gun is actually CZ 805 bren A2......how stupid of me.....and the Gun i thought is AK 12, is actually QBZ 03.......yep u read it correct



What confuses me is 03 weapon systems are light calibre and 01 heavy calibre, i don't see any match. 

My guess is the current weapons being tested all would be the light calibre meaning 5.56mm / 5.45mm & may be 5.8mm for Chinese. In next stage they may be bringing in contenders for the 7.62mm calibre, reason being they will first check the effectiveness of the 5.56mm etc and the best suitable weapon system in that category, then check the 7.62mm and see what is the best which suits us. Compare pros and cons of both light and heavy calibres and then make a final decision.

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## Zarvan

TaimiKhan said:


> What confuses me is 03 weapon systems are light calibre and 01 heavy calibre, i don't see any match.
> 
> My guess is the current weapons being tested all would be the light calibre meaning 5.56mm / 5.45mm & may be 5.8mm for Chinese. In next stage they may be bringing in contenders for the 7.62mm calibre, reason being they will first check the effectiveness of the 5.56mm etc and the best suitable weapon system in that category, then check the 7.62mm and see what is the best which suits us. Compare pros and cons of both light and heavy calibres and then make a final decision.


Yes Sir no Gun can match power of FN SCAR so it seem if these are only Guns being tested than I can clearly see FN SCAR coming


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## franklin

TaimiKhan said:


> What confuses me is 03 weapon systems are light calibre and 01 heavy calibre, i don't see any match.
> 
> My guess is the current weapons being tested all would be the light calibre meaning 5.56mm / 5.45mm & may be 5.8mm for Chinese. In next stage they may be bringing in contenders for the 7.62mm calibre, reason being they will first check the effectiveness of the 5.56mm etc and the best suitable weapon system in that category, then check the 7.62mm and see what is the best which suits us. Compare pros and cons of both light and heavy calibres and then make a final decision.


My guess is that the experiences gained from ongoing WOT has taught the Pakistan army the need for lighter calibrr when compared to 7.62 nato. That is why almost all the troops deployed in the fata are armed with AK's. In view of this they may choose to field both a 7.62 nato and a lighter calibrr like 5.56 or 7.62 AK. That way they can ensure both range and volume of fire in a given rifle squad.

Regarding type-03 even though it I Chinese made mechanically it uses short stroke gas piston like modern op rod AR's so it should be more accurate than regular AK's apart from newer A 556 series. And it I available in both 7.62 nato as well as 7.62 AK so it might fill both the roles.


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## Desertfalcon

Genghis khan1 said:


> *PA needs 16in SCAR-H Standard for 600 m *


That would get my vote. The 5.56mm has always suffered from a well-earned reputation of being too light a calibre for the battlefield. In all but close quarters, it is too short ranged as well, particularly with the rise in popularity of shorter barrelled weapons like the M4. American special ops forces, operating in places like Afghanistan, procured the SCAR-H for exactly those reasons.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Tipu7 said:


> View attachment 294796
> 
> *QBZ 03 Assault Rifle: China*
> 
> 
> *
> View attachment 294798
> *​
> 
> The QBZ-03 assault rifle, also known as the Type 03, is a Chinese gas operated, selective-fire weapon and is the latest assault rifle designed and developed for the 5.8×42mm DBP87 round.
> 
> 
> Unlike the bullpup QBZ-95, the QBZ-03 is a weapon of conventional design and is loosely inspired by the Type 81 assault rifle]. The weapon is designed to be easily used by soldiers already familiar with previously issued rifles and machine guns. The QBZ-03 has a two-piece receiver largely made up of forged aluminum alloy with the stock, pistol grip, and handguards being made of a polymer compound. The gas block has a two position regulator, one for firing standard ammunition, the other to allow the use of rifle grenades. The sights are of a hooded front sight with a flip up rear diopter sight similar to the American M16 rifle. A scope rail is available to allow the use of various optics. The QBZ-03 has seen some issue within the People's Armed Police, People's Liberation Army Marine Corps, People's Liberation Army Air Force Paratroopers, and second line PLA ground units. An export-aimed version of the QBZ-03 also exists, first introduced in 2005 by the joint CJAIE (China Jing-An Import-Export) and Jiang-She Group Companies. The export version is chambered in 5.56×45mm NATO and feeds by STANAG magazines. The cyclic rate on the issued model is semi-automatic or fully automatic only, while the export model has an integrated three round burst mode. The type's most notable public display was by the PLA Airforce Airborne Troops during the October 1st 2009 60th Anniversary Parade. The assault rifle was also featured in the 2015 Victory Day Parade.
> 
> 
> View attachment 294797
> ​
> 
> Live fire performance.................
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​


This one is already in service - limited numbers..


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## RAMPAGE

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> This one is already in service - limited numbers..


With whom?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

RAMPAGE said:


> With whom?



03 ..!


Also from what I've heard these are still initial "studies".. Although they army *has *made up its mind to replace the G-3*...(orders by COAS).*

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## Talwar e Pakistan

Genghis khan1 said:


> Most urban firefights take place within 300m. A genuine Russian made AK in steady hands will do just fine in this scenario. But when we are talking about Pakistan Army Standard Issue weapons, you are talking about hills of Kashmirs, terrain of Tribal area,Balochistan, vast plains of Punjab and open deserts of Sindh. AK will barely hit a target above 300 meters in ideal conditions, let alone in a warzone. *PA needs 16in SCAR-H Standard for 600 m (660 yd).* PA can fight ragtag terrorist with AKs but when we are talking about another professional military across the LOC with calibrated standard issue weapon, scope and a bullet proof vest. You need a rifle that can outrange their INSAS and AKs with accuracy, can have enough velocity to penetrate their helmet even after flying 500m (since penetrating vest is unlikely ) and can maintain it's straight flight even on a windy day.
> @balixd
> 
> Some basic difference b/w 7.62 and 5.56 round.
> What are some differences between 5.56x45mm and 7.62x51mm ammunition from a practical, real world perspective? - Quora



The words, Indian army and professional military dont mix.



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> 03 ..!
> 
> 
> Also from what I've heard these are still initial "studies".. Although they army *has *made up its mind to replace the G-3*...(orders by COAS).*


So we wont be replacing the G-3?

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## Zarvan

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> The words, Indian army and professional military dont mix.
> 
> 
> So we wont be replacing the G-3?


We are replacing G3 but what @DESERT FIGHTER is saying that these are initial tests and Pakistan is also looking that with which caliber we should stick with

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## Irfan Baloch

Zarvan said:


> We are replacing G3 but what @DESERT FIGHTER is saying that these are initial tests and Pakistan is also looking that with which caliber we should stick with


fouji consensus is sticking with 7.63 because of its stopping power and penetration. I get that.

my ONLY observation is that the average skinny frame of our jawan doesn't handle the recoil of the G3 very well.
what good is a heavy round when it will shoot past the target? compare that to 5.56 round which is lighter, economical and has less kick meaning the firer has better chance of placing it at the vital parts of his enemy. its opponents whine about its lack of stopping power and penetration .. ignoring the fact that its hitting the target.

when the Americans switched to 5.56 rounds in Vietnam then they scored more kills. the actual war footage of armymen firing G3 in WoT is less than impressive. the G3 is almost succeeding in flying away from the soldier.. compare that to the other guns like carbines or assault rifles like type 56.. our Jawans are doing much better.
see this comparison video. to show what I mean.

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## Path-Finder

The way I see it army is sticking with two calibers 7.62x51(FN SCAR) & 7.62x39(BREN-805) 5.56 could be for police and special forces possibly.

Other thing is FN SCAR and Bren-805 resemble each other very closely!

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## Talwar e Pakistan

Irfan Baloch said:


> fouji consensus is sticking with 7.63 because of its stopping power and penetration. I get that.
> 
> my ONLY observation is that the average skinny frame of our jawan doesn't handle the recoil of the G3 very well.
> what good is a heavy round when it will shoot past the target? compare that to 5.56 round which is lighter, economical and has less kick meaning the firer has better chance of placing it at the vital parts of his enemy. its opponents whine about its lack of stopping power and penetration .. ignoring the fact that its hitting the target.
> 
> when the Americans switched to 5.56 rounds in Vietnam then they scored more kills. the actual war footage of armymen firing G3 in WoT is less than impressive. the G3 is almost succeeding in flying away from the soldier.. compare that to the other guns like carbines or assault rifles like type 56.. our Jawans are doing much better.
> see this comparison video. to show what I mean.


It honestly depends on range and type of warfare. We use Type-56 and ect in FATA because it matches the environment of close range and unconventional warfare. A war with India is whole other story - which will mostly center around long range and slow firefights in open fields or mountains.


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## Irfan Baloch

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> It honestly depends on range and type of warfare. We use Type-56 and ect in FATA because it matches the environment of close range and unconventional warfare. A war with India is whole other story - which will mostly center around long range and slow firefights in open fields or mountains.


again.. the question is not answered.. if the shooter cant handle the recoil then either train him better or get a gun that has a less kick. smaller round is one option. other is the way the recoil is absorbed or dissipated .. improving the chance of a hit.

you might want to see the Europeans firing the same G3 in full auto. there is no problem with the gun either.. its just that our bodies are normally not as meaty and muscular as the Europeans to handle these big *** battle rifles

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## Talwar e Pakistan

Irfan Baloch said:


> again.. the question is not answered.. if the shooter cant handle the recoil then either train him better or get a gun that has a less kick. smaller round is one option. other is the way the recoil is absorbed or dissipated .. improving the chance of a hit.
> 
> you might want to see the Europeans firing the same G3 in full auto. there is no problem with the gun either.. its just that our bodies are normally not as meaty and muscular as the Europeans to handle these big *** battle rifles


Europeans/Americans use different and lighter variants; and its only their equipment which makes them look 'meaty and muscular'. I live in the US and trust me - US Soldiers are no where being 'meaty and muscular' as compared to what Hollywood portrays them as. 

Here are Pakistani soldiers with heavy equipment and just like any other soldier in heavy equipment - they look muscular.












Honestly, Pakistani Soldiers are pretty fit - however diet needs to change.

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## django

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> Europeans/Americans use different and lighter variants; and its only their equipment which makes them look 'meaty and muscular'. I live in the US and trust me - US Soldiers are no where being 'meaty and muscular' as compared to what Hollywood portrays them as.
> 
> Here are Pakistani soldiers with heavy equipment and just like any other soldier in heavy equipment - they look muscular.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Honestly, Pakistani Soldiers are pretty fit - however diet needs to change.


The diet is fine, much rather have "peenday" types than those hulking US marines whose body types/size require a lot of energy to maintain effectiveness plus they present bigger targets LOL

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## Talwar e Pakistan

django said:


> The diet is fine, much rather have "peenday" types than those hulking US marines whose body types/size require a lot of energy to maintain effectiveness plus they present bigger targets LOL


Again - honestly US marines arent as bulky as people think them to be.

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## django

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> Again - honestly US marines arent as bulky as people think them to be.


Some of the US special ops troops have huge upper bodies and skinny legs, I think they over do the weights, that is certainly the impression I get watching them on news programs.kudos


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## Bratva

RAMPAGE said:


> With whom?



If I remember correctly, I've seen them with FC balochistan Special operations Group.

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## Irfan Baloch

django said:


> The diet is fine, much rather have "peenday" types than those hulking US marines whose body types/size require a lot of energy to maintain effectiveness plus they present bigger targets LOL


The discussion is now turning into BS
I mean no disrespect but you guys fail to understand what I am saying

Check out a Finnish soldier doing full auto of g3 on YouTube



Talwar e Pakistan said:


> Europeans/Americans use different and lighter variants; and its only their equipment which makes them look 'meaty and muscular'. I live in the US and trust me - US Soldiers are no where being 'meaty and muscular' as compared to what Hollywood portrays them as.
> 
> Here are Pakistani soldiers with heavy equipment and just like any other soldier in heavy equipment - they look muscular.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Honestly, Pakistani Soldiers are pretty fit - however diet needs to change.


Please I am talking average US soldier and I have lived and served together with Pak soldiers
F Hollywood


Check this out. 





That's what I meant by having meat behind the gun
Rest is technique. Which is lacking among our guys
Either they put some pounds improve their stance or choose smaller calibar
Shooting wildly won't earn the kill.

End of

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## Talwar e Pakistan

Irfan Baloch said:


> The discussion is now turning into BS
> I mean no disrespect but you guys fail to understand what I am saying
> 
> Check out a Finnish soldier doing full auto of g3 on YouTube
> 
> 
> Please I am talking average US soldier and I have lived and served together with Pak soldiers
> F Hollywood
> 
> 
> Check this out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's what I meant by having meat behind the gun
> Rest is technique. Which is lacking among our guys
> Either they put some pounds improve their stance or choose smaller calibar
> Shooting wildly won't earn the kill.
> 
> End of


Again... That G3 is a different and lighter variant - just like I said.

We use a longer and heavier variant; here is an outdated but very informative video.

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## Hell hound

Irfan Baloch said:


> The discussion is now turning into BS
> I mean no disrespect but you guys fail to understand what I am saying
> 
> Check out a Finnish soldier doing full auto of g3 on YouTube
> 
> 
> Please I am talking average US soldier and I have lived and served together with Pak soldiers
> F Hollywood
> 
> 
> Check this out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's what I meant by having meat behind the gun
> Rest is technique. Which is lacking among our guys
> Either they put some pounds improve their stance or choose smaller calibar
> Shooting wildly won't earn the kill.
> 
> End of


instead of changing the round we should train our soldiers better.
but sir can you tell us why even after 30 years of induction our boys haven't learn the proper stance and technique is it because of jugad culture (kay jesa chal raha hay chalney do).


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## That Guy

Hell hound said:


> instead of changing the round we should train our soldiers better.
> but sir can you tell us why even after 30 years of induction our boys haven't learn the proper stance and technique is it because of jugad culture (kay jesa chal raha hay chalney do).


Honestly, its mainly the rifle. Pakistan still uses bulkier battle rifles, made mostly from metal, rather than lighter materials that the Europeans started to use at the turn of the century.

@Talwar e Pakistan is right. I've seen Canadian and US soldiers in person, I can say confidently, they're just as skinny as Pakistan infantrymen. In fact, the bulkier soldiers tend to be SpecOps, and Pakistan SpecOps are just as bulky as US, Canadian and European soldiers.

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## Hell hound

That Guy said:


> Honestly, its mainly the rifle. Pakistan still uses bulkier battle rifles, made mostly from metal, rather than lighter materials that the Europeans started to use at the turn of the century.
> 
> @Talwar e Pakistan is right. I've seen Canadian and US soldiers in person, I can say confidently, they're just as skinny as Pakistan infantrymen. In fact, the bulkier soldiers tend to be SpecOps, and Pakistan SpecOps are just as bulky as US, Canadian and European soldiers.


bro have you seen scar h and ak 103's recoil its like gentle tap on the shoulder compared to g3

not disrespecting our soldiers just trying to show what g3's recoil did to her shoulder

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## That Guy

Hell hound said:


> bro have you seen scar h and ak 103's recoil its like gentle tap on the shoulder compared to g3
> 
> not disrespecting our soldiers just trying to show what g3's recoil did to her shoulder


Like I said, its mainly the rifle.


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## Zarvan

Irfan Baloch said:


> The discussion is now turning into BS
> I mean no disrespect but you guys fail to understand what I am saying
> 
> Check out a Finnish soldier doing full auto of g3 on YouTube
> 
> 
> Please I am talking average US soldier and I have lived and served together with Pak soldiers
> F Hollywood
> 
> 
> Check this out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's what I meant by having meat behind the gun
> Rest is technique. Which is lacking among our guys
> Either they put some pounds improve their stance or choose smaller calibar
> Shooting wildly won't earn the kill.
> 
> End of


That's some serious fire power


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## RAMPAGE

@Icarus

Sir, Can you put an end to this debate by telling us the reason behind the varying ability of different individuals to control the recoil of G-3 or any other rifle for that matter. Does it depend on technique or is it strength?

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## Zarvan

FN SCAR @kaonalpha


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## Icarus

RAMPAGE said:


> @Icarus
> 
> Sir, Can you put an end to this debate by telling us the reason behind the varying ability of different individuals to control the recoil of G-3 or any other rifle for that matter. Does it depend on technique or is it strength?



Its a combination of either. How a rifle handles in your hand has a lot to do with physical factors that show enormous variability across individuals. The width of your palm, the length of your arms, the shape of your shoulder, your forearm strength, your breathing technique and several tens of other factors can determine how adept you are with a firearm. 
Which is why skeet shooters spend days 'dry mounting' their weapon and making changes in the shape of the butt (by mere centimeters at a time), the pistol grip (if applicable), chokes and the barrel to find a combination that works for them.

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## Irfan Baloch

RAMPAGE said:


> @Icarus
> 
> Sir, Can you put an end to this debate by telling us the reason behind the varying ability of different individuals to control the recoil of G-3 or any other rifle for that matter. Does it depend on technique or is it strength?


you answered your question very well, its bit of everything if the person is to be blamed. but its the gun as well. both the weapon and the user need to be compatible with each other to make a winning combination. 

there is no certain answer. the 303 Springfield had/ has a kick..maybe more than the G3. but there is a way to compensate for that. if the insistence is for a bigger round then power to you.. get a better designed battle rifle that absorbs and distributes the recoil better (check up videos on guns that have a revolutionary design to distribute the recoil downwards instead of back to the shoulder).

then is the technique, one step ahead, lean forward, strength of grip and the correct placement on the shoulder and correct breathing while squeezing the trigger. our boys (and officers) make good shooting with G3 even with iron sight but they are exception.. I am looking for a gun that does that for over 85% men so its a norm.

in order to stay truly and religiously loyal to 7.62 round, 




Hell hound said:


> instead of changing the round we should train our soldiers better.
> but sir can you tell us why even after 30 years of induction our boys haven't learn the proper stance and technique is it because of jugad culture (kay jesa chal raha hay chalney do).



If I carry on discussion on this thread then it will only cause myself stress and mental breakdown. I have tried everything to convey the message with examples and alternatives but it has been dismissed and discussion has been screwed to the core. I never felt so embarrassed, helpless and humiliated for pressing on with what message I was trying to get through. 

my rant was on a mismatch of gun, recoil, round, person & training (if I explain what I mean by this then I will invite more trouble for myself)

Never again.

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## Cool_Soldier

Better focus on indigenous one, import technology and manufacture in home.


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## Taimur Khurram

Let's design our own firearm. Who's with me?


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## Hell hound

dsr478 said:


> Let's design our own firearm. Who's with me?


bro i think we need one last imported rifle with TOT to know all the advance feature of current gen rifles and then we will have strong base to produce modern arms our self.other wise insas type incident might happen.

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## Taimur Khurram

Hell hound said:


> bro i think we need one last imported rifle with TOT to know all the advance feature of current gen rifles and then we will have strong base to produce modern arms our self.other wise insas type incident might happen.



We already have advanced rifles like the SCAR and M4. We need to start designing our own. Even if we can't make advanced firearms, we can at least make something cheap and cheerful. Something like that would also sell great.


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## Talwar e Pakistan

dsr478 said:


> Let's design our own firearm. Who's with me?


We already have - but they dont largely meet our military requirements. It best if we get foreign firearms, modify them to our needs and then mass produce them through ToT.


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## Hell hound

dsr478 said:


> We already have advanced rifles like the SCAR and M4. We need to start designing our own. Even if we can't make advanced firearms, we can at least make something cheap and cheerful. Something like that would also sell great.


mate we are talking about our future service rifle here we can't just give substandard weapons to our soldiers.they are fighting for with their life and least we could do is to arm them with quality weapons.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

RAMPAGE said:


> With whom?



I saw Gen Tariqs escorts equipped with 03s... 1.5 years back at Tilla Ranges..

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## Taimur Khurram

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> We already have - but they dont largely meet our military requirements. It best if we get foreign firearms, modify them to our needs and then mass produce them through ToT.



I'm not talking about those g3's and Kalashnikovs we manufacture under license, I'm talking about a true, self designed rifle. We can and should make one.


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## Zarvan

Guys How about AK-15 ?


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## Taimur Khurram

Hell hound said:


> mate we are talking about our future service rifle here we can't just give substandard weapons to our soldiers.they are fighting for with their life and least we could do is to arm them with quality weapons.



When I say cheap and cheerful, I mean something like the ak47. Not some half assed weapon that jams easily.


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## Zarvan

FN SCAR H


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## Ceri

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> Europeans/Americans use different and lighter variants; and its only their equipment which makes them look 'meaty and muscular'. I live in the US and trust me - US Soldiers are no where being 'meaty and muscular' as compared to what Hollywood portrays them as.
> 
> Here are Pakistani soldiers with heavy equipment and just like any other soldier in heavy equipment - they look muscular.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Honestly, Pakistani Soldiers are pretty fit - however diet needs to change.


Is moustache/beard mandatory? Only the guy on farthest right is beardless

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Ceri said:


> Is moustache/beard mandatory? Only the guy on farthest right is beardless



Nope.. Lol.. Cultural thing.

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## Talwar e Pakistan

Ceri said:


> Is moustache/beard mandatory? Only the guy on farthest right is beardless


Haha - I can see why you think that. Facial hair; I think are encouraged and recommended but under strict limits. For multiple reasons including - religion, intimidation, comfort, and many health related advantages. It has also always been in our historic war culture to sport facial hair as it seems manly and intimidating. Punjabi, Baloch and Pasthun warriors have always sported beards. There are also facial hair competitions.

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## Super Falcon

dsr478 said:


> We already have advanced rifles like the SCAR and M4. We need to start designing our own. Even if we can't make advanced firearms, we can at least make something cheap and cheerful. Something like that would also sell great.


Bhai keep ur cheap thinking to yourself it is not a toy which u just go and design its complex engineering with out TOT u end up INSAS india is top 3 exporters yet it cant design itself we need state of the art machenics engineers soldiers combinations of them make ane great gun


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## Bratva

Ceri said:


> Is moustache/beard mandatory? Only the guy on farthest right is beardless




Dudes with skinny faces mostly spot beards. To make their face have a feeling of fullness.

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## Super Falcon

dsr478 said:


> When I say cheap and cheerful, I mean something like the ak47. Not some half assed weapon that jams easily.


And if world followed u they never made scar HK 416 gun AK 47 lacks accuracy if u get power of AK 47 accuracy of sniper in HK 417 and scar what u need so get out of 50s era wake up sid its 2016


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## Talwar e Pakistan

Zarvan said:


> Guys How about AK-15 ?


That is one sexy weapon - but it probably lacks range which will be priority in a Pak-Indo war.

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## Talwar e Pakistan

Bratva said:


> Dudes with skinny faces mostly spot beards. To make their face have a feeling of fullness.


Skinny and spot beards? Did you even look at the picture?


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## Syed Hussain

There will be a million miles long discussion on this thread and end result will be still "Pakistani soldiers running around with a "heavily modernized" G3 in there hands in 2050/60  while many of the countries may be inducting energy weapons by then at squad level."


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## Zarvan

Syed Hussain said:


> There will be a million miles long discussion on this thread and end result will be still "Pakistani soldiers running around with a "heavily modernized" G3 in there hands in 2050/60  while many of the countries may be inducting energy weapons by then at squad level."


We are going for new Gun no more G3 upgradtion going to take place





In this time of constantly accelerating innovation, any piece of equipment older than a few decades is due for replacement. This temporally-enhanced evolutionary process holds true for everything from refrigerators to battle rifles. A few years ago, Magpul designed the Magpul Masada rifle. Although the marketing department might have spent a little more time at Wikipedia (the siege at Masada only ended victoriously on the symbolic level), the Magpul long gun was everything the company believed a battle rifle should be. Remington took their concept to full production with their Remington ACR.


Just like the current M4/M16 platform, the ACR consists of an “upper” and “lower” receiver. End users (as shooters are called) can hang onto the lower and swap-out just about everything else on the rifle—barrels, optics, lights, etc. Hey presto chango! From 5.56x45mm NATO and 6.8 Remington Special (yet another 6.8 caliber) without an armorer.

The LE/Mil Remington ACR’s fire control components are extremely familiar; they’re basically the same as the M4/M16 controls. The only significant differences between the M4/M16 and the ACR: the bolt release is located at the bottom front of the trigger guard, and the charging handle is located in front of the chamber instead of behind against your face.



To activate the ACR’s bolt release, you have to positioned your finger dangerously close to _inside_ the trigger guard. In contrast, Magpul’s B.A.D. device. I can release the bolt while my finger’s STRAIGHT and outside the trigger guard. With the ACR, I have to bend my finger slightly in order to put enough pressure on the release.

You can operate the Remington ACR’s forward charging handle without moving your hand off the fire controls or compromising your cheek weld. Unlike the FN SCAR, the ACR’s handle doesn’t reciprocate. So even if something gets in the way of the ACR’s charging handle the gun will still function. Yes but—the ACR’s charging handle is fixed on one side, not both. While they can be moved to either side based on user preference, neither the charging handle nor the safety selector switch are ambidextrous.

The safety / giggle switch is in the same position as the AR-15’s and operates in the same manner. It’s plastic. Personally I prefer my safety devices to be made of metal (especially when they’re on a machine gun); metal is less prone to bending and breaking than plastic. Style-wise, the flat dark earth safety selector switch blends in nicely with the rest of the rifle.




In terms of recoil, the LE/Mil Remington ACR’s hard to judge with the suppressor attached. Suppressed, the rifle has very little recoil, about as much as my AR-15 with a big-*** compensator attached (my friends tell me the rifle IS my compensator, but whatever).

While firing it, the rifle just feels right. Keeping the ACR on target during sustained fire isn’t that hard, but the muzzle does rise a significant amount. The cyclic rate of fire is a tad high, though, so bursts tended to be a little longer than I expected (to be fair, this was only the third fully automatic weapon I had ever fired, so take that statement with a grain of salt).



The ACR was a bittersweet joy to fire, knowing that the entire U.S. government stood between the fully-automatic rifle and my gun safe. Anyway, Remington designed the ACR to replace the M4/M16 family of rifles. While it is a fantastic piece I don’t see any major improvements that would justify swapping out the entire stock of the U.S. armed forces for the ACR. Which makes me sad. I was really rooting for it ever since it was unveiled at SHOT a while back. Still, the lobbyist-fed fat lady is just warming up.

*Law Enforcement / Military Remington ACR*

*Specifications*
Caliber: 5.56x45mm NATO / 6.8 Remington Special
Barrel: 10.5″ / 14.5″ / 16.5″
Size: 21 5/6″ to 37 1/2″
Weight: 8 lbs. empty w/ 14.5″ barrel
Operation: Gas piston system
Finish: Black / Desert Tan
Capacity: Uses standard 5.56x45mm NATO magazines
MSRP: $??? (Law Enforcement / Military Only) (Civilian MSRP $2,343)

*Ratings (Out of Five Stars)*
All ratings are relative compared to the other weapons in the gun’s category.

*Accuracy: * * * **
From what I could tell, it seems pretty accurate. Even in fully automatic fire, I was able to keep the rifle on a target roughly person sized at 15-20 yards for five or six rounds.

*Ergonomics: * * **
Everything feels pretty good on this rifle. It points well and moves great from one target to another. But compared to the AR-15, it’s a lot bulkier. Like, significantly bulkier. The AR-15 does the same stuff but is much more streamlined.

*Ergonomics Firing: * * * * **
Oh man, it feels good. Like, really good.

*Reliability: N/A*
I didn’t have enough time to test the reliability, but given the operating system and other reports on this rifle I’d say it’s par for the course.

*Customization: * * * * **
The rifle not only has a full length top rail, but it also has slots to mount other rails or accessories directly to the rifle. You can change the stock, the grip, the side the charging handle and the safety are on… Freedom of choice!

*Overall Rating: * * * **
Is this rifle a great shooter and feel wonderful? Yes indeed. Is the Remington ACR significantly better than the M4/M16? Not by my estimation. Is it better enough for civilian shooters in search of the next biggish thing? Absolutely. Am I going to buy one? As soon as it stops being so ungodly expensive.

[DISCLAIMER: The guns I fired at the NDIA (National Industry Defense Association) symposium are generally not available to the public. I didn’t get a whole lot of time to give the weapons a full and complete review. But I did have enough trigger time to get a general idea of how the guns feel and handle.]
Gun Review: LE/Mil Remington ACR - The Truth About Guns

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## Super Falcon

S


balixd said:


> really, you still dont believe, what i have said?? HK is not on the current lot being tested.....the chances of it being tested currently is 5% and 95% that HK is out.....concrete evidence has been shared with admin......i force people to agree with me, i can just present what i know....whether people believe me or not, is a different story.....
> 
> no, what i have said is they are not being tested and i am certain they are not here yet.
> 
> 
> I receive pictures of pretty intresting things but i usually dont even mention them here on forum out of security concerns........


Oso are we testing sterngewher of WW 2 i dont be shocked it is the mindset of our arned force keep buying outdated retired shit PAF stuck with F 16 Navy stuck with lavish ATR and retired OHP and army with old stergeweher what a ideal


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## muhammadali233

Fn Scar L Should finalised what a beautifully manufactured machine it is <3 According to the video the 5.56 Scar has very less recoil and long (not sharp) and after some good practice the reloading can be done a blink of an eye,the fire selector is very cleverly placed

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## That Guy

@balixd @Horus @Quwa @Irfan Baloch 

Just need a clarification, is Pakistan only looking to replace it's G-3 battle rifles? Or are the AKs also on the chopping block? I'm sort of getting mixed messages. Also, if the AKs ARE on the chopping block, is the SCAR-L also being considered?



Zarvan said:


> Guys How about AK-15 ?


It looks nice, and may be a modern AK, but it is still just an AK. Pakistan is looking for something better, not necessarily cheaper.


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## Zarvan

That Guy said:


> @balixd @Horus @Quwa @Irfan Baloch
> 
> Just need a clarification, is Pakistan only looking to replace it's G-3 battle rifles? Or are the AKs also on the chopping block? I'm sort of getting mixed messages. Also, if the AKs ARE on the chopping block, is the SCAR-L also being considered?
> 
> 
> It looks nice, and may be a modern AK, but it is still just an AK. Pakistan is looking for something better, not necessarily cheaper.


Sir the list told by @balixd includes AK-102 which is being tested as for SSG I don't know How much would it cost but Remington ACR should be tested because Type 56 is outdated.


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## That Guy

Zarvan said:


> Sir the list told by @balixd includes AK-102 which is being tested as for SSG I don't know How much would it cost but Remington ACR should be tested because Type 56 is outdated.


I think we need to make one thing clear, these competitions are only for those that are interested. The fact that Remington didn't bring the rifle forward means they're not interested.

Why would the army test something that they would never has a chance to use?


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## Zarvan

That Guy said:


> I think we need to make one thing clear, these competitions are only for those that are interested. The fact that Remington didn't bring the rifle forward means they're not interested.
> 
> Why would the army test something that they would never has a chance to use?


Sir I think we didn't invited them in first place in fact if we would have invited every one I am pretty sure MPT-76 and Berreta ARX-160 would have been among the Guns which are being tested. But the way we are testing Guns it seems we only selected few and decided to go ahead with it.

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## That Guy

Zarvan said:


> Sir I think we didn't invited them in first place in fact if we would have invited every one I am pretty sure MPT-76 and Berreta ARX-160 would have been among the Guns which are being tested. But the way we are testing Guns it seems we only selected few and decided to go ahead with it.


I don't think that's the case. Like @Quwa and @Horus suggested, it may just be that the competition is in it's final stages, and a lot of the rifles on offer were rejected for one reason or another. The PA probably invited as many groups as possible, and the fact that we don't see HK on the list, despite Pakistan manufacturing quite a lot of HK products, supports this view.


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## Zarvan

That Guy said:


> I don't think that's the case. Like @Quwa and @Horus suggested, it may just be that the competition is in it's final stages, and a lot of the rifles on offer were rejected for one reason or another. The PA probably invited as many groups as possible, and the fact that we don't see HK on the list, despite Pakistan manufacturing quite a lot of HK products, supports this view.


Can be that these are last stages lets see and wait for few months may be they would reveal the winner during IDEX 2016

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## Sulman Badshah

Ceri said:


> Is moustache/beard mandatory? Only the guy on farthest right is beardless


they aren't mandatory ... but no restriction on them as well

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## The Eagle

Zarvan said:


> Sir I think we didn't invited them in first place in fact if we would have invited every one I am pretty sure MPT-76 and Berreta ARX-160 would have been among the Guns which are being tested. But the way we are testing Guns it seems we only selected few and decided to go ahead with it.



Sir, indeed selective few are to be tested but these few are selected after short listing at first place, of the weapon which may fulfill the requirement. Then after the process of physical examination continues with respect to different weather and atmosphere.

Further more, i just went thorough the discussion regarding recoil and kick, so first thing is stance and arm power then indeed the caliber affects most. So IMHO, the area of stance and arm power is not the major concern as our Jawans are trained well though the kick by caliber is to be considered but has become less headache, thanks to modernization of weapons especially in recoil process so in over all wouldn't be an issue in case of modernized weapon whether it is 7.62 or 5.56.


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## Zarvan

The Eagle said:


> Sir, indeed selective few are to be tested but these few are selected after short listing at first place, of the weapon which may fulfill the requirement. Then after the process of physical examination continues with respect to different weather and atmosphere.
> 
> Further more, i just went thorough the discussion regarding recoil and kick, so first thing is stance and arm power then indeed the caliber affects most. So IMHO, the area of stance and arm power is not the major concern as our Jawans are trained well though the kick by caliber is to be considered but has become less headache, thanks to modernization of weapons especially in recoil process so in over all wouldn't be an issue in case of modernized weapon whether it is 7.62 or 5.56.


Most videos of FN SCAR on you tube suggest it hardly has any Recoil and if the Guns mentioned by @balixd are the only Guns which we tested than their is no reason that FN SCAR won't win

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## The Eagle

Zarvan said:


> Most videos of FN SCAR on you tube suggest it hardly has any Recoil and if the Guns mentioned by @balixd are the only Guns which we tested than their is no reason that FN SCAR won't win



Exactly and seeing such evaluation, indeed shows the sign of no objection only till moment but the most reliable and reputed contender will win though SCAR has shown capabilities and is trustworthy. Recoil factor is a less subject now a days and as i said thanks to the modernization. 

@balixd Sir has indeed valued information and I must add that evaluation process starts with a list on paper with aspecs then short list the interested weapons as per need and then after goes for practical, physical examination and performance.


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## Amaa'n

Yar......haad hai, you guys na.....
As said above, from the above given list, we have picked four best weapons from each calibre.....with my over excitment i may have given a tiny little bit wrong information.....
This is now correct list....as confirmed
1- SCAR H 7.62 X51N
2- CZ 805 Bren A2 5.56 x 45mm
3- AK 7.62nx 39
4- QBZ 03 5.56 x45

And now there is a fight among the calibres and not the weapon system.....
This changes all lot of things we consider performance of the weapon over different terrain under environmental conditions, torture and stress test.....dry firing the weapons, cold bore fires, hot bore firing in desert...its accuracy when barrel is hot, ease of field stripping and cleaning ..... This is not just about recoil or the firer



The Eagle said:


> Exactly and seeing such evaluation, indeed shows the sign of no objection only till moment but the most reliable and reputed contender will win though SCAR has shown capabilities and is trustworthy. Recoil factor is a less subject now a days and as i said thanks to the modernization.
> 
> @balixd Sir has indeed valued information and I must add that evaluation process starts with a list on paper with aspecs then short list the interested weapons as per need and then after goes for practical, physical examination and performance.


With AK in line, it will give hard time to scar and all solders are familiar with handling AK weapon system.....

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## Zarvan

balixd said:


> Yar......haad hai, you guys na.....
> As said above, from the above given list, we have picked four best weapons from each calibre.....with my over excitment i may have given a tiny little bit wrong information.....
> This is now correct list....as confirmed
> 1- SCAR H 7.62 X51N
> 2- CZ 805 Bren A2 5.56 x 45mm
> 3- AK 7.62nx 39
> 4- QBZ 03 5.56 x45
> 
> And now there is a fight among the calibres and not the weapon system.....
> This changes all lot of things we consider performance of the weapon over different terrain under environmental conditions, torture and stress test.....dry firing the weapons, cold bore fires, hot bore firing in desert...its accuracy when barrel is hot, ease of field stripping and cleaning ..... This is not just about recoil or the firer
> 
> 
> With AK in line, it will give hard time to scar and all solders are familiar with handling AK weapon system.....


What AK you are mentioning ? And you want to tell us that these 4 Guns are selected from various I mean various Guns were tested in 4 different categories and 4 of these were finally selected ? @balixd


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## Amaa'n

AK in question is AK 10e 7.62 x39 not 556, so ssg is not in question here


Zarvan said:


> Sir the list told by @balixd includes AK-102 which is being tested as for SSG I don't know How much would it cost but Remington ACR should be tested because Type 56 is outdated.





Zarvan said:


> What AK you are mentioning ? And you want to tell us that these 4 Guns are selected from various I mean various Guns were tested in 4 different categories and 4 of these were finally selected ? @balixd


AK 103 with polymer mag ....


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## Zarvan

balixd said:


> AK in question is AK 10e 7.62 x39 not 556, so ssg is not in question here
> 
> 
> AK 103 with polymer mag ....


Sir you didn't answered my second question. What you just said do you mean let their were lists of Guns in those lists their were several Guns out of those Guns these 4 were selected one from each list ?


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## Amaa'n

Zarvan said:


> Sir you didn't answered my second question. What you just said do you mean let their were lists of Guns in those lists their were several Guns out of those Guns these 4 were selected one from each list ?


Yes.....as been told
I still didnt get the answer what qbz is doing on the table.......lol

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## Zarvan

balixd said:


> Yes.....as been told
> I still didnt get the answer what qbz is doing on the table.......lol


So you think QBZ should not be the among which are being tested ? Why you think that


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## Amaa'n

Zarvan said:


> So you think QBZ should not be the among which are being tested ? Why you think that


Its totally personal perception, infact this was the first time i saw this weapon in my life....i am well aware of ither chinese weapons, i have handled few in our market but never qbz ......so idk what kind of weapon is this


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## Zarvan

balixd said:


> Its totally personal perception, infact this was the first time i saw this weapon in my life....i am well aware of ither chinese weapons, i have handled few in our market but never qbz ......so idk what kind of weapon is this


I also don't like QBZ 03. Thanks for the information please try to ask your friends in forces when we would hear about the winner. Could we expect some announcement during IDEAS 2016 ?

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## Irfan Baloch

That Guy said:


> @balixd @Horus @Quwa @Irfan Baloch
> 
> Just need a clarification, is Pakistan only looking to replace it's G-3 battle rifles? Or are the AKs also on the chopping block? I'm sort of getting mixed messages. Also, if the AKs ARE on the chopping block, is the SCAR-L also being considered?
> 
> 
> It looks nice, and may be a modern AK, but it is still just an AK. Pakistan is looking for something better, not necessarily cheaper.


Our customised AK clones are just fine
This is the feedback from army men in the field.

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## Tipu7

Are there any plans to replace MG3.......?
Also are we going to induct Marksman rifle?
Scar H offer this ability.......

thoughts? @balixd @RAMPAGE @Quwa

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## RAMPAGE

balixd said:


> AK 103 with polymer mag ....


Standard design with fixed stock? No picatinny rail?

This one?

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## Amaa'n

RAMPAGE said:


> Standard design with fixed stock? No picatinny rail?
> 
> This one?


Exactly thats the one

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## RAMPAGE

Upgraded AK-103 from Kalashnikov Concern.






@balixd @Zarvan @Horus

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## Amaa'n

RAMPAGE said:


> Upgraded AK-103 from Kalashnikov Concern.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @balixd @Zarvan @Horus


There is a small rail on each side of hand guard, small enough to mount grip and torch.....i would have prefered a rail on Dust Cover too as it comes standard on Vepr Molot 12

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## RAMPAGE

balixd said:


> There is a small rail on each side of hand guard, small enough to mount grip and torch.....i would have prefered a rail on Dust Cover too as it comes standard on Vepr Molot 12


Yaar what do you think about handling the manufacturing of the selected rifle to a private arms manufacturer like DS etc. One that can finance and set up a state of the art manufacturing plant.


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## Taimur Khurram

Super Falcon said:


> And if world followed u they never made scar HK 416 gun AK 47 lacks accuracy if u get power of AK 47 accuracy of sniper in HK 417 and scar what u need so get out of 50s era wake up sid its 2016



If we did that, the firearm wouldn't be in large enough supply to be used by most of our army. Unless of course we co develop it with China. That's always an option.



Super Falcon said:


> Bhai keep ur cheap thinking to yourself it is not a toy which u just go and design its complex engineering with out TOT u end up INSAS india is top 3 exporters yet it cant design itself we need state of the art machenics engineers soldiers combinations of them make ane great gun



We can do it, and should do it. By your logic, we should drop all our indigenous military equipment and just import weapons from China and the US. 

Pakistan's military must become fully self reliant as soon as possible!


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## Quwa

dsr478 said:


> If we did that, the firearm wouldn't be in large enough supply to be used by most of our army. Unless of course we co develop it with China. That's always an option.
> 
> 
> 
> We can do it, and should do it. By your logic, we should drop all our indigenous military equipment and just import weapons from China and the US.
> 
> Pakistan's military must become fully self reliant as soon as possible!


Pakistan's method of building its defence industry is buying foreign designs and producing them domestically under-license. So while new assault rifles from the U.S. or Europe are an 'import' in one sense, the Army is looking to buy them with the technology and equipment for producing them at home. This is how the vast majority of Pakistan's defence programs are done, e.g. al-Khalid MBT, JF-17, F-22P frigate, S20 submarine, etc.

What you're asking for is Pakistan to actually design the equipment in-house. Unfortunately, Pakistan's capacity in that regard is very weak. We're not just talking about investing in education, but in R&D facilities and programs, especially conceptual ones with a high margin of failure. That requires a lot of money, and it won't happen until Pakistan sorts its structural economic problems out, permanently.

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## django

dsr478 said:


> We already have advanced rifles like the SCAR and M4. We need to start designing our own. Even if we can't make advanced firearms, we can at least make something cheap and cheerful. Something like that would also sell great.


Do we have SCAR. I was not aware of this.


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## That Guy

Irfan Baloch said:


> Our customised AK clones are just fine
> This is the feedback from army men in the field.


I've heard the same thing, but the 5.56 caliber in the competition tells me that the army may also be looking at replacing it's AKs. It wouldn't make sense to test assault rifles, when you're trying to replace your battle rifle.

What do you think of the following...

I've heard it being suggested that the Bren is there as a test against the SCAR-L, but we don't even know if the SCAR-L was even considered. The list @balixd shows that the competition is in it's final phase, and the SCAR-L is nowhere on the list, but if the SCAR-H wins, could we theoretically see a SCAR-L also enter service with Pakistan? You know, as an across the board new standard?

Also, I feel like I'm being ignored. Did I do something to piss everyone off?

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## Quwa

That Guy said:


> I've heard the same thing, but the 5.56 caliber in the competition tells me that the army may also be looking at replacing it's AKs. It wouldn't make sense to test assault rifles, when you're trying to replace your battle rifle.
> 
> What do you think of the following...
> 
> I've heard it being suggested that the Bren is there as a test against the SCAR-L, but we don't even know if the SCAR-L was even considered. The list @balixd shows that the competition is in it's final phase, and the SCAR-L is nowhere on the list, but if the SCAR-H wins, could we theoretically see a SCAR-L also enter service with Pakistan? You know, as an across the board new standard?
> 
> Also, I feel like I'm being ignored. Did I do something to piss everyone off?


I think that would be the case. On the other hand, if the BREN A2 were selected, then couldn't PA also take up a 7.62mm version of the BREN too (which CZ says can be done, easily)?

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## django

Zarvan said:


> Sir I think we didn't invited them in first place in fact if we would have invited every one I am pretty sure MPT-76 and Berreta ARX-160 would have been among the Guns which are being tested. But the way we are testing Guns it seems we only selected few and decided to go ahead with it.


Is the MPT-76 definitely out of the evaluation process.


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## Hell hound

That Guy said:


> I've heard the same thing, but the 5.56 caliber in the competition tells me that the army may also be looking at replacing it's AKs. It wouldn't make sense to test assault rifles, when you're trying to replace your battle rifle.
> 
> What do you think of the following...
> 
> I've heard it being suggested that the Bren is there as a test against the SCAR-L, but we don't even know if the SCAR-L was even considered. The list @balixd shows that the competition is in it's final phase, and the SCAR-L is nowhere on the list, but if the SCAR-H wins, could we theoretically see a SCAR-L also enter service with Pakistan? You know, as an across the board new standard?
> 
> Also, I feel like I'm being ignored. Did I do something to piss everyone off?


from what i have heard us special forces loved the scar h but they weren't so open about scar l don't know the reason but they prefer other rifles over scar l in 5.56 caliber so they only adopted scar h while ignoring the light model.may be there is something wrong with scar l same reason pk army is not testing it.but scar h according to them is absolute beauty.

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## Amaa'n

You guys need to calm down and give this discussion a rest, they are not going to pick up a new rifle over night......we are never too sure what is going to happen next....initially VT 4 arrived in Pakistan, december 2014 we were told that is it, but then came al8ng whole bunch of other goodies.....and 1 year down the road we still dont have a clear winner.......

We had weapon trails for Bolt action sniper, awp, bora competed heck we even made up a whole next Sniper rifle in house st PoF and started producing match grade .308 rounds, but still that is in the hanging......

SCAH L and HK are not here doesnt mean we are never going to see them......things can change......budget issues, lengthy trails, contract issues, setting up plant......

Calm your horses down..... I can understand the excitement, heck even i couldnt control myself when i was handed over the phone with pictures, i was zooming in andout trying to figure out details, asking questions......but then it all came to rest.........so relax and say WOOSAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!



RAMPAGE said:


> Yaar what do you think about handling the manufacturing of the selected rifle to a private arms manufacturer like DS etc. One that can finance and set up a state of the art manufacturing plant.


We have our bubble of "Secrecy" and "Security" even though Daudsons is providing shotguns, paint ball guns and ubl to military still they are not entrusted to provide the weapons of Military grade.....we have the man power and with right people employed into the private industry it can be outsourced but then again comes the issue of keeping a check on employees, what if someone sells out the military grade weapon to non state actors......same thing happened with those Chinese .223 we captured from peshwar few weeks back......

We have moon star, daudsons, sheroz sons, they all make perfect clones of Sig P226, M 1911? Heck we are evn making copies of M4 A1 with colt stamped and those are some really really good copies, but then comes the issue of metallurgy, parties involved are not using the correct time of metal.....hence you require expert on the management and design level... 
Setting up a plant large enough to meet our target is a pain in itself

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## That Guy

Quwa said:


> I think that would be the case. On the other hand, if the BREN A2 were selected, then couldn't PA also take up a 7.62mm version of the BREN too (which CZ says can be done, easily)?


I'd assume so as well, but that depends on if the PA thinks the SCAR-L is better than the BREN A2, or if the SCAR-H is better than a 7.62 version of the BREN.

Basically, I'm assuming that if one is picked over the other, PA may go for both calibers for that system.

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## Zarvan

balixd said:


> You guys need to calm down and give this discussion a rest, they are not going to pick up a new rifle over night......we are never too sure what is going to happen next....initially VT 4 arrived in Pakistan, december 2014 we were told that is it, but then came al8ng whole bunch of other goodies.....and 1 year down the road we still dont have a clear winner.......
> 
> We had weapon trails for Bolt action sniper, awp, bora competed heck we even made up a whole next Sniper rifle in house st PoF and started producing match grade .308 rounds, but still that is in the hanging......
> 
> SCAH L and HK are not here doesnt mean we are never going to see them......things can change......budget issues, lengthy trails, contract issues, setting up plant......
> 
> Calm your horses down..... I can understand the excitement, heck even i couldnt control myself when i was handed over the phone with pictures, i was zooming in andout trying to figure out details, asking questions......but then it all came to rest.........so relax and say WOOSAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> We have our bubble of "Secrecy" and "Security" even though Daudsons is providing shotguns, paint ball guns and ubl to military still they are not entrusted to provide the weapons of Military grade.....we have the man power and with right people employed into the private industry it can be outsourced but then again comes the issue of keeping a check on employees, what if someone sells out the military grade weapon to non state actors......same thing happened with those Chinese .223 we captured from peshwar few weeks back......
> 
> We have moon star, daudsons, sheroz sons, they all make perfect clones of Sig P226, M 1911? Heck we are evn making copies of M4 A1 with colt stamped and those are some really really good copies, but then comes the issue of metallurgy, parties involved are not using the correct time of metal.....hence you require expert on the management and design level...
> Setting up a plant large enough to meet our target is a pain in itself


If Pakistan will select FN SCAR than I am pretty sure they would go for both SCAR H and SCAR L


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## GoldenRatio1618

future is of laser weapons when Pakistan army will introduce it...


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## thrilainmanila

The new assault rifles would need to be circulated through the SSG,NSSG, and SSAW before being introduced to the pak army regular infantry it makes no sense upgrading your infantrymen with highly sophisticated assault riffles like the SCAR and the spec ops operating the M4s/scoped AKs.


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## Zarvan

thrilainmanila said:


> The new assault rifles would need to be circulated through the SSG,NSSG, and SSAW before being introduced to the pak army regular infantry it makes no sense upgrading your infantrymen with highly sophisticated assault riffles like the SCAR and the spec ops operating the M4s/scoped AKs.


SSG is doing good it's time for infantry and we are getting rid of G3 which is not used by SSG so new Gun will go to infantry


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## SQ8

thrilainmanila said:


> The new assault rifles would need to be circulated through the SSG,NSSG, and SSAW before being introduced to the pak army regular infantry it makes no sense upgrading your infantrymen with highly sophisticated assault riffles like the SCAR and the spec ops operating the M4s/scoped AKs.



What is highly sophisticated in the basic versions? please elaborate

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## thrilainmanila

Oscar said:


> What is highly sophisticated in the basic versions? please elaborate


The SCAR is a more advanced rifle then any version of the AK in service with the SSG even in its "basic" form,


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## SQ8

thrilainmanila said:


> The SCAR is a more advanced rifle then any version of the AK in service with the SSG even in its "basic" form,


Again, please elaborate how or hold your peace. Have the courage to post why without making needless sweeping statements if you cant even back it up with knowledge.

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## thrilainmanila

Oscar said:


> Again, please elaborate how or hold your peace. Have the courage to post why without making needless sweeping statements if you cant even back it up with knowledge.


The scar is a new generation of assault rifle, the Ak47 was introduced over 6 decades ago, the SCAr represents the latest generation of assault rifle, it doesn't make sense for specialised units to operate an upgraded version of a decades old weapon and have the infantry obtain a more highly advanced design, in terms of precision and accuracy of fire the SCAR is a better weapon the point I'm trying to make is the specialised units would need there old generation of weapons replaced first as it serves there mission profile greater then the infantry


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## SQ8

thrilainmanila said:


> The scar is a new generation of assault rifle, the Ak47 was introduced over 6 decades ago, the SCAr represents the latest generation of assault rifle, it doesn't make sense for specialised units to operate an upgraded version of a decades old weapon and have the infantry obtain a more highly advanced design, in terms of precision and accuracy of fire the SCAR is a better weapon the point I'm trying to make is the specialised units would need there old generation of weapons replaced first as it serves there mission profile greater then the infantry



You are talking like a newscaster paid to prolong the program with needless beating around the bush. Please highlight where in your post have you given ANYTHING that talks on the rifle's mechanism, construction materials or otherwise that make it beyond the capability of a normal trained Pakistani soldier.

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## HAIDER

Oscar said:


> You are talking like a newscaster paid to prolong the program with needless beating around the bush. Please highlight where in your post have you given ANYTHING that talks on the rifle's mechanism, construction materials or otherwise that make it beyond the capability of a normal trained Pakistani soldier.


What attracts more to this age soldier. range or precision , accuracy ?..or all factor weight, range and accuracy ,,if yes then what comes in your mind.


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## Zarvan

HAIDER said:


> What attracts more to this age soldier. range or precision , accuracy ?..or all factor weight, range and accuracy ,,if yes then what comes in your mind.


Well for me more than accuracy it's weather Guns jams or not the less it's the more I would prefer that Gun.


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## HAIDER

Best pick for Pak soldier for both hot and cold region. From desert to tops of Siachin.

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## SQ8

HAIDER said:


> What attracts more to this age soldier. range or precision , accuracy ?..or all factor weight, range and accuracy ,,if yes then what comes in your mind.


Everything works.. but generally.. weight needs to balance out. 
The M-16 is a light rifle as such but with its plastic butt it became useless in hand to hand combat which happens more often than not in urban scenarios and other situations.

The G-3 has excellent range and accuracy but it is too heavy and prone to jamming in certain weather conditions. 

So the perfect rifle is essentially a question of compromise... a smaller guy may like a lighter weapon but would seem like a toy to a bigger person and be out of balance with a good bayonet. 

Rifle accuracy can be achieved with different internal mechanics but these may be detrimental to firing rate or field serviceability. 

Then comes in the round preference, which round(with its weight, velocity and ballistics) would one want. Pakistan liked the G-3 because the 7.62 round is more suited to longer ranges and is detrimental in terms of ammo carrying capacity and the list goes on and on. 

Essentially, the biggest factor will be basic cost effectiveness but considering that a certain general forced the local production of the MP-5 and its widespread adoption after fattening his own pockets..much to the protests of the evaluating team; one can only hope such characters still dont exist otherwise we might end up with the QBz-1 or some other ill suited weapon while some brass ends up moving out of one of their 4 kanal DHA houses to a penthouse in Dubai and send their kids to harvard via donation.

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## Maarkhoor

@Oscar 
Sir what about locally licensed produced M4-carbine ? special forces already using them in small numbers...

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## SQ8

MaarKhoor said:


> @Oscar
> Sir what about locally licensed produced M4-carbine ? special forces already using them in small numbers...


Huzoor, the M-4 is a good weapon but trades in certain performances from the M-16. It is still a good option but it is dated.

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## Maarkhoor

Oscar said:


> Huzoor, the M-4 is a good weapon but trades in certain performances from the M-16. It is still a good option but it is dated.


In that situation we can work on G3 to make it lighter and jam proof...we are producing them since ages and i believe our technicians and engineers have enough knowledge of it they can modify it... If h&k allow us to do that...


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## Zarvan

MaarKhoor said:


> In that situation we can work on G3 to make it lighter and jam proof...we are producing them since ages and i believe our technicians and engineers have enough knowledge of it they can modify it... If h&k allow us to do that...


We have done enough modifications latest one G3M version but now we are going to replace the Gun and hope we select FN SCAR as replacement.

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## SQ8

MaarKhoor said:


> In that situation we can work on G3 to make it lighter and jam proof...we are producing them since ages and i believe our technicians and engineers have enough knowledge of it they can modify it... If h&k allow us to do that...



They have to an extent but the design is also an inherent limitation. As for producing locally, I am not aware of any specific program in Pakistan or any specific degree holder in POF who has done a course specifically focused on firearm engineering.

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## Tipu7

balixd said:


> Calm your horses down..... I can understand the excitement, heck even i couldnt control myself when i was handed over the phone with pictures, i was zooming in andout trying to figure out details, asking questions......but then it all came to rest.........so relax and say WOOSAAAAA!!


Any idea about MG3 replacement.......?
That "thing" is too heavy........ also any plans for Marksman sniper guns??


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## Zarvan

Tipu7 said:


> Any idea about MG3 replacement.......?
> That "thing" is too heavy........ also any plans for Marksman sniper guns??


I think FN SCAR H is also a Marksman Gun

*FN SCAR - SSR Mk.20 Mod.0 / Sniper Support Rifle (USA)*




FN SCAR - SSR Mk.20 Mod.0 / Sniper Support Rifle





Caliber

7,62x51 NATO (.308 Win)

Action

Semi-automatic, gas operated

Overall length

1028 mm

Barrel length

508 mm

Weight

5,05 kg

Magazine capacity

20 rounds



The FN SCAR Mk.20 Mod.0 SSR / Sniper Support Rifle is the latest offspring of the Special Forces Combat Assault Rifles (SCAR) family, developed for US Special Operations command (US SOCOM) by US-based subsidiary of the famous Belgian small arms-making company FN Herstal. The FN SCAR-SSR Mk.20 Mod.0 Sniper Support Rifle is based on the 7,62mm Mk.17 Mod.0 SCAR-H rifle, and is designed to provide accurate and rapid semi-automatic fire at ranges beyond capabilities of the standard 5,56mm assault rifles currently in service. It can be used as a Designated Marksman Rifle (DMR), as a tactical equivalent of the famous Russian Dragunov SVD rifle, or as a weapon for a 2ndmember (spotter) of a conventional sniper team, where the 1st member is armed with long-range and precise, but relatively slow-firing weapon such as XM2010 ESR (hence the moniker “Sniper Support Rifle”).

Manufacturer claims that FN SCAR-SSR Mk.20 Mod.0 Sniper Support Rifle will deliver sub-MOA accuracy at ranges of up to 1000 yards (910 meters), assuming that proper sniper-grade ammunition is used.

The FN SCAR-SSR Mk.20 Mod.0 Sniper Support Rifle is already cleared for fielding by US SOCOM. It is interesting to note that Mk.20 SCAR-SSR rifle appears to be direct competitor to the Mk.11 Mod.1 / M110 Semi-automatic Sniper rifles, currently fielded by US military.



The FN SCAR-SSR Mk.20 Mod.0 Sniper Support Rifle is gas-operated, semi-automatic weapon. It uses short-stroke gas piston, located above the barrel, and rotating bolt locking with dual front lugs. It is based on the Mk.17 Mod.0 SCAR-H rifle (stated parts commonality with parent Mk.17 SCAR-H rifle is about 60%), but uses extended aluminum alloy upper receiver, special barrel extension and enhanced trigger. It also uses same 20-round detachable box magazines. The precision-made barrel has special profile and is fitted with flash hider, which also serves as a quick-detachable suppressor (silencer) mounting point. The shoulder stock is of fixed (non-folding) design and has adjustable buttplate and cheek rest. Like all other rifles in the FN SCAR family, SCAR-SSR rifle is provided with integral Picatinny rail on top of the receiver, with additional rail attached to the extended forend. It can be fitted with detachable back-up iron sights and any type of optical or IR/Night sight, which is suitable for planned mission

@Tipu7





@The Guy @Sulman Badshah @Horus @Quwa

@Tipu7 As for Machine Gun replacement than this is the answer

*Heckler – Koch HK 121 MG5 universal / general purpose machine gun (Germany)*






*Caliber*

7,62x51 NATO

*Length*

1165 mm

*Barrel length*

550 mm

*Weight*

10,8 kg

*Rate of fire*

n/a

*Feed*

belt



Heckler – Koch HK 121 universal / general purpose machine gun is a product of famous German arms-making company Heckler und Koch, designed as a possible replacement for ageing MG 3 general purpose machine guns, now in use by German military. This weapon was first announced in 2009, and in 2013 it was formally adopted by German army as MG5. MG5 is built on the basis of the previous HK machine gun, the 5.56mm MG 4, but with few parts being actually interchangeable due to different calibers and sizes.

Heckler – Koch HK 121 / MG5 machine gun is a gas operated weapon, firing from open bolt in automatic mode only. It has quick-detachable, air cooled barrel, with conventional rotary bolt locking. HK 121 gun is belt fed, using standard NATO disintegrating belts with M13 links, fed from clip-on 50-round containers or separate belt boxes. Gun is equipped with pistol grip and rifle-type trigger. Side-folding shoulder stock is made from polymer, and a small folding forend / forward grip is provided under the gas tube. Conventional folding bipod is attached below the gas block, and the gun can be installed on all mounts and tripods originally developed for MG 3 machine guns. In accordance with modern trends, it carries integral Picatinny rail at the top of the receiver, which can accept variety of day and night sights in addition to standard iron sights, which are provided with the gun.





@balixd @Bratva @waz @kaonalpha @Icarus @HRK

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## Amaa'n

Tipu7 said:


> Any idea about MG3 replacement.......?
> That "thing" is too heavy........ also any plans for Marksman sniper guns??


Whats the obsession with scar??? 
All you guys remind me how many units around the globe are in the hands of Military troops around ???

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## Tipu7

balixd said:


> Whats the obsession with scar???
> All you guys remind me how many units around the globe are in the hands of Military troops around ???


Just mentioning that Scar offer Marksman sniper option too ........................

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## Zarvan

balixd said:


> Whats the obsession with scar???
> All you guys remind me how many units around the globe are in the hands of Military troops around ???


FN SCAR - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Sir SCAR is hardly 5 years old and within 5 years it has around 15 operators or those who are in process of inducting it. This clearly tells How good this Gun is


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## Maarkhoor

Zarvan said:


> FN SCAR - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Sir SCAR is hardly 5 years old and within 5 years it has around 15 operators or those who are in process of inducting it. This clearly tells How good this Gun is


Scar will prove another G3 nothing new to offer and above all a big risk still not prove its metal....We need simple designed assault rifle like AK-47 probably newer version suits our requirements better then any other rifle.
AK-12 is best

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## Zarvan

MaarKhoor said:


> Scar will prove another G3 nothing new to offer and above all a big risk still not prove its metal....We need simple designed assault rifle like AK-47 probably newer version suits our requirements better then any other rifle.
> AK-12 is best


FN SCAR is the best and it's best in all ways from accuracy to firepower and other features it is better than all the other Guns.



MaarKhoor said:


> Scar will prove another G3 nothing new to offer and above all a big risk still not prove its metal....We need simple designed assault rifle like AK-47 probably newer version suits our requirements better then any other rifle.
> AK-12 is best


FN SCAR is the best and it's best in all ways from accuracy to firepower and other features it is better than all the other Guns.


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## Maarkhoor

Zarvan said:


> FN SCAR is the best and it's best in all ways from accuracy to firepower and other features it is better than all the other Guns.
> 
> 
> FN SCAR is the best and it's best in all ways from accuracy to firepower and other features it is better than all the other Guns.


You ever tested this by himself or just u r facebook friend recommend this...by the way i once ogled u r facebook lot of Asian girls added in u r friend list...anyways just curiosity did they are u r secret pals about defense related breaking news that you quite often posted.

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## Taimur Khurram

django said:


> Do we have SCAR. I was not aware of this.



Yeah, the SSG uses them.

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## [--Leo--]

why don't pakistan build their own with R&D on G3 or AK-47 based it is not some rocket science man 1 year enough for that i think personally


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## Zarvan

MaarKhoor said:


> You ever tested this by himself or just u r facebook friend recommend this...by the way i once ogled u r facebook lot of Asian girls added in u r friend list...anyways just curiosity did they are u r secret pals about defense related breaking news that you quite often posted.


I okay every one who adds me even on Facebook I most talk to those Guys who are active members here. as for FN SCAR I have done the research that is why I am saying it



[--Leo--] said:


> why don't pakistan build their own with R&D on G3 or AK-47 based it is not some rocket science man 1 year enough for that i think personally


No they don't. SSG don't use FN SCAR


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## Maarkhoor

Zarvan said:


> I have done the research that is why I am saying it


And that research based on net only, Did u ever try G3 ? can you explain Gas operating rotating bolt mechanism. What is the main cause of rifle jams....And the most importantly what type of metal suitable for Pakistani conditions that we can choose while rifle building.


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## Hell hound

MaarKhoor said:


> Scar will prove another G3 nothing new to offer and above all a big risk still not prove its metal....We need simple designed assault rifle like AK-47 probably newer version suits our requirements better then any other rifle.
> AK-12 is best


sir jee there is caliber difference in scar h(7.62x51mm) and ak (7.62×39mm).we are looking for replacement of g3 which is also 7.62x51mm


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## Maarkhoor

Zarvan said:


> okay every one who adds me even on Facebook


Yes off course u r OK specially mini skirt clad send you requests to be u r friends....


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## Zarvan

MaarKhoor said:


> Yes off course u r OK specially mini skirt clad send you requests to be u r friends....


I mostly block them by the way which account you are talking about I don't have such friends


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## Maarkhoor

Zarvan said:


> I mostly unfriendly them by the way which account you are talking about I don't have such friends


Rehnay do bhai....ab unfriend karnay se kiya fayda...first you acknowledge that u accept friend request now denying... Ooh bhai ladkoun ko ladkioyun se hi dosti kerni chahiye yeh sehat mand rowiya hey..why u r shy to accept...

But you did't answer my post about technical knowledge....


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## Zarvan

MaarKhoor said:


> Rehnay do bhai....ab unfriend karnay se kiya fayda...first you acknowledge that u accept friend request now denying... Ooh bhai ladkoun ko ladkioyun se hi dosti kerni chahiye yeh sehat mand rowiya hey..why u r shy to accept...


I never talk to Girls on Facebook I never had I post either Islamic Stuff or defence matters or Geo Political and Comedy stuff. As for chatting my all chats are with either those who are members of this forum or other defence enthusiasts

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## Maarkhoor

Zarvan said:


> I never talk to Girls on Facebook I never had I post either Islamic Stuff or defence matters or Geo Political and Comedy stuff. As for chatting my all chats are with either those who are members of this forum or other defence enthusiasts


Don't be apologetic be open up as me and friends confirmed thurki....if u really don't like girls man u need hormonal therapy.....

Any ways please reply to this..

*And that research based on net only, Did u ever try G3 ? can you explain Gas operating rotating bolt mechanism. What is the main cause of rifle jams....And the most importantly what type of metal suitable for Pakistani conditions that we can choose while rifle building.*

Source: Pakistan's Future Service Rifle. | Page 43

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## django

MaarKhoor said:


> Don't be apologetic be open up as me and friends confirmed thurki....if u really don't like girls man u need hormonal therapy.....
> 
> Any ways please reply to this..
> 
> *And that research based on net only, Did u ever try G3 ? can you explain Gas operating rotating bolt mechanism. What is the main cause of rifle jams....And the most importantly what type of metal suitable for Pakistani conditions that we can choose while rifle building.*
> 
> Source: Pakistan's Future Service Rifle. | Page 43


it seems you have gotten him by the throat @MaarKhoor bhai.lol

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## Bratva

MaarKhoor said:


> Rehnay do bhai....ab unfriend karnay se kiya fayda...first you acknowledge that u accept friend request now denying... Ooh bhai *ladkoun ko ladkioyun* se hi dosti kerni chahiye yeh sehat mand rowiya hey..why u r shy to accept...
> 
> But you did't answer my post about technical knowledge....



Ye konsi urdu hai ?

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## Path-Finder

MaarKhoor said:


> @Oscar
> Sir what about locally licensed produced M4-carbine ? special forces already using them in small numbers...


The yanks who made this rifle system are phasing out the Stoner designed rifles with FN SCAR. Adopting the Stoner design when the nation of origin is phasing it out is not ideal!


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## Path-Finder



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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


>


@balixd @Sulman Badshah @Tipu7 Check out the video posted by @Path-Finder

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## Irfan Baloch

@DESERT FIGHTER @TaimiKhan brothers
in this thread and elsewhere I have expressed my dismay over the way our men (army/ police) shoot the G3.. both are good in their own right but the match seems a forced one. although there are some exceptional shooters and over all those of us (including me) who have held this gun and fired it ... like the gun and can talk at length about how good this gun is.

but looking outside the shooting range in the actual field / war or operation.. the shot on target (or lack of it) leaves much to be desired so any future rifle should address this and keep an average Pakistani youth / soldier in mind who can handle that gun well and be a true shot. 

that all said. I came across a video and seen some very good shooting power of our own men ..handling the G3. the guy below is Pakistani but his western (real or inspired) training is showing off.

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## Path-Finder

G3 rifles need to be laid to rest now. I hope a new rifle is adopted in due time!


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Irfan Baloch said:


> @DESERT FIGHTER @TaimiKhan brothers
> in this thread and elsewhere I have expressed my dismay over the way our men (army/ police) shoot the G3.. both are good in their own right but the match seems a forced one. although there are some exceptional shooters and over all those of us (including me) who have held this gun and fired it ... like the gun and can talk at length about how good this gun is.
> 
> but looking outside the shooting range in the actual field / war or operation.. the shot on target (or lack of it) leaves much to be desired so any future rifle should address this and keep an average Pakistani youth / soldier in mind who can handle that gun well and be a true shot.
> 
> that all said. I came across a video and seen some very good shooting power of our own men ..handling the G3. the guy below is Pakistani but his western (real or inspired) training is showing off.
> 
> View attachment 296676



Ive seen FC men shoot birds (in flight) with a single shot - G-3...

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## bananarepublic

Are we going to import these guns or are we going to do a license production of the new gun ?????


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## Basel

Zarvan said:


> Yes Sir no Gun can match power of FN SCAR so it seem if these are only Guns being tested than I can clearly see FN SCAR coming



What advantages it offer over other competitors in same category in international market?


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## SSGcommandoPAK

I think the army is waiting for the Indians , like if Indians acquire a new riffle for there army to replace Insas and Aks ,PA would also go for a new riffle which already is being selected but will be acquired only when India goes for something new waiting for the right moment i suppose ?  at the moment the Insas and Indian riffles are no big threat ,if we talk about counter terrorism we have sophisticated equipment and weapons with the SSG .However i would love to see something new tired of the big heavy rusty G3s .


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## Neptune

Irfan Baloch said:


> @DESERT FIGHTER @TaimiKhan brothers
> in this thread and elsewhere I have expressed my dismay over the way our men (army/ police) shoot the G3.. both are good in their own right but the match seems a forced one. although there are some exceptional shooters and over all those of us (including me) who have held this gun and fired it ... like the gun and can talk at length about how good this gun is.
> 
> but looking outside the shooting range in the actual field / war or operation.. the shot on target (or lack of it) leaves much to be desired so any future rifle should address this and keep an average Pakistani youth / soldier in mind who can handle that gun well and be a true shot.
> 
> that all said. I came across a video and seen some very good shooting power of our own men ..handling the G3. the guy below is Pakistani but his western (real or inspired) training is showing off.
> 
> View attachment 296676




Hey.
To be more precise, I would love to see the video footage first but based on the capture you posted, anyways yeah. He did the chicken wings stance on the photo you have posted. I see no faults on the shooting position, maybe except for his legs although I am not so sure on it hence it's a training range I assume. So rather than inspiration, it's mostly due to his training.

Many people tend to aggressively overreact against chicken wing shooters when they are seen. But honestly from my experience on G3A3 and HK33 in regards of CQB and COIN type engagements, it has ups and downs but in general I'd say "not good enough", with leaving the final say on the user's discretion.

On the shooting range it's acceptable, thus it's a stance that puts higher accuracy as it's goal. In fact when you consider the G3's 7.62 round and it's naturally infamous recoil it is the likely stance you might opt for when in a shooting range, training or sometimes in combat. In fact it's quite often that you might see photos on shooting range or training soldiers using G3 with that position.

But in a combat situation, I think his stance fails.
First of all, this stance contains high risk for the shooter when he is being shot at or when he is at short range because this position requires him to up his elbow above his shoulder as he did like 45 degrees. So directly or indirectly it makes some part of his body an open target inevitability. Although it's rare that some shooters use that in field, but I believe nearly at all of them that happens in a situation only when they are not being shot at, like this I found on Google (or maybe they are shot at who knows);









As for the use of this stance in hot combat zones, it's very rare, at least in our AO. It should not be used in a urban warfare environment either. Take my unit as an example, it's a light infantry (SOC) unit, if the CO ever sees me in a chicken wings position during job whether or not we are taking fire, he probably will stop fighting and break my elbows if he is someone obsessed with rifles in which he is, lol. So it's highly recommended not to use this stance, yes it is very rare to see, but even when this stance is captured by media during combat, it's mostly the specially trained operators who use that, I can't judge them hence they know this better than I do but even for them, some defense geeks start swearing when they're seen in chicken wing shooter stance like this from Southeastern Turkey during an operation, and I think they're right on swearing at some point;
As said, the guy in the middle is police spec ops and the other two are from the Navy EOD teams. You see the first one from right is in the same position.







As per CQB, when cleaning rooms, it decreases your body's area of movement and it gets harder to flexibly rotate the barrel/sight which is important in this situation. This happened to me with a 5.56 HK33, I think you can well imagine how it would go if the weapon used was a G3, and even if I was properly holding it, barrel was too long. Of course it wasn't built to clean houses but when fighting terrorists like PA or we do do there's a point when your team got to break into a property and you need to clean it fast with whatever it is on your hand.

So as a result, the soldier in the photo has held it truly according to the rules (I repeat, I am not sure on legs), but the stance he had preferred is only suitable during training or when there's little to no risk of being fired upon.


If we agree to find the psychical appearances of Turkish and Pakistani men as similar on weight/height and stamina. For a service weapon like the G3 being used by two armies that struggle with the deepest fights on their own soils against terror, you know it better but I think that whatever the PA will opt for, it's gonna be 7.62mm and velocity at least as good as G3. So if such a criteria is a backbone when all the other relevant factors like reliability, climate and barell life are put aside, the better choices for your tender are those that don't require a lot of muscle when both firing and holding. Instead of the body itself if the muscles alone support the weapon after a point you'll lose your accuracy and other things like tire will start to show that's what exactly the chicken wing stance does. In a long term for troops fighting TTP in towns and mountains for long times, these details will show itself in a time when it's not really welcomed at all. It may not bring casualties or harm but in deed it will affect the performance of the troops. One of the other things that should be different and better than the G3 for the future service rifle of yours would be length of barrel but since it's adjustable for all the new rifles on the market so it won't be an issue.

Death to chicken wing!

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## madmusti



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## Zarvan

I hope Pakistan goes for FN SCAR and I am trying to contact some Army guys and get details and latest updates on this

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## Immanuel

SCAR is way out of Pak's financial capacities, the civilian rifle costs over $3000 per unit in the US alone, without any optics. Mil spec versions will cost way more. Moreso, the rifle is not up for licenced manufacture. The Turkish rifles are the prudent choice.


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## Zarvan

Immanuel said:


> SCAR is way out of Pak's financial capacities, the civilian rifle costs over $3000 per unit in the US alone, without any optics. Mil spec versions will cost way more. Moreso, the rifle is not up for licenced manufacture. The Turkish rifles are the prudent choice.


Sir we are already testing FN SCAR and we wouldn't have tested FN SCAR if we know we can't afford it.

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## Immanuel

Zarvan said:


> Sir we are already testing FN SCAR and we wouldn't have tested FN SCAR if we know we can't afford it.


Well we tested Rafale, EF and every other 4.5 gen fighter knowing very well we couldn't afford either of the Euro-Canards . Besides if the Turkish rifles clears the trials, they'll win the order on price bids obviously.


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## Zarvan

Immanuel said:


> Well we tested Rafale, EF and every other 4.5 gen fighter knowing very well we couldn't afford either of the Euro-Canards . Besides if the Turkish rifles clears the trials, they'll win the order on price bids obviously.


Sir latest reports suggest we are not even testing MPT-76


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## Immanuel

Zarvan said:


> Sir latest reports suggest we are not even testing MPT-76


 
Hmm, why not the HK then? since HK already has a history of licenced manufacture in Pak. HK 416/417 are formidable rifles, expensive yet great.


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## Zarvan

Immanuel said:


> Hmm, why not the HK then? since HK already has a history of licenced manufacture in Pak. HK 416/417 are formidable rifles, expensive yet great.


No idea why are HK not tested or if tested than why rejected may be our friend @kaonalpha can help us out here


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## Super Falcon

Zaarvan immanuel is posts are very very confusing these people will never be happg when did paf tried Rafale eurofighter 

Expansive is not a issue here issue is rifle which we want should serve us next 30 years if we go for cheap than we keep replcing gun and waste double the money than better gun 

Insas is a big exmple wasted trillions on it yet it failed in 10 years it need to be replaced

If 3000 dollar gun can serve me 30 years it means its yearly cost if 30 dollars

If cheap gun cost me 1000 dollar gun only serve 10 years than i have to replace 3 types of guns every decade confusing to soldiers money waste and time waste

These small brain people brains are not put eye on future they think of only today

Scar or HK are best for enviornment of pak

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## Quwa

Not many countries buy their new rifles in one giant swoop. It is generally done through batches of 10,000 to 20,000 every 1 or 2 years. At that scale, you're looking at spending in the tens of millions per dollars a year, not much in comparative terms for an Army with a multi-billion dollar annual budget.

For Pakistan, the main issue wouldn't be buying the rifles, but actually buying the production line and intellectual property rights.

As for the Pakistan Army, I wonder if it would be a good idea to slowly phase in the new rifles with new recruits, who could be trained on the new rifle from the ground-up without having to re-learn from an older model. Moreover, the induction of a new rifle could be phased alongside infantry training and equipment geared towards higher survivability and greater technology use, which could also be channeled through fresh manpower inductions.

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## Zarvan

Quwa said:


> Not many countries buy their new rifles in one giant swoop. It is generally done through batches of 10,000 to 20,000 every 1 or 2 years. At that scale, you're looking at spending in the tens of millions per dollars a year, not much in comparative terms for an Army with a multi-billion dollar annual budget.
> 
> For Pakistan, the main issue wouldn't be buying the rifles, but actually buying the production line and intellectual property rights.
> 
> As for the Pakistan Army, I wonder if it would be a good idea to slowly phase in the new rifles with new recruits, who could be trained on the new rifle from the ground-up without having to re-learn from an older model. Moreover, the induction of a new rifle could be phased alongside infantry training and equipment geared towards higher survivability and greater technology use, which could also be channeled through fresh manpower inductions.


New ASSAULT Rifle won't come without TOT and whole production will take place in POF Wah


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## bananarepublic

Are the rifle`s going to be produced locally or is it going to be imported....???


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## Immanuel

Super Falcon said:


> Zaarvan immanuel is posts are very very confusing these people will never be happg when did paf tried Rafale eurofighter
> 
> Expansive is not a issue here issue is rifle which we want should serve us next 30 years if we go for cheap than we keep replcing gun and waste double the money than better gun
> 
> Insas is a big exmple wasted trillions on it yet it failed in 10 years it need to be replaced
> 
> If 3000 dollar gun can serve me 30 years it means its yearly cost if 30 dollars
> 
> If cheap gun cost me 1000 dollar gun only serve 10 years than i have to replace 3 types of guns every decade confusing to soldiers money waste and time waste
> 
> These small brain people brains are not put eye on future they think of only today
> 
> Scar or HK are best for enviornment of pak



Trillions wasted on INSAS? Hahah, hardly a few hundred crores if at all. I never said Pak tested Rafale or EF. Looking at your posts, its clear reading and writing are a problem for you.


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## Valkyrie

shimshali said:


> Are the rifle`s going to be produced locally or is it going to be imported....???



Judging by the volume of rifles to be inducted and the accompanying magnitude of the transaction itself, it is going to have, by all likelihood, an aspect of transfer of technology and rights to indigenous production.
I'm confident that people in PA who're in charge of overseeing this deal aren't going to settle for anything less.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Valkyrie said:


> Judging by the volume of rifles to be inducted and the accompanying magnitude of the transaction itself, it is going to have, by all likelihood, an aspect of transfer of technology and rights to indigenous production.
> I'm confident that people in PA who're in charge of overseeing this deal aren't going to settle for anything less.


You don't import a million units.. Also the policy of the govt is (buy everything with ToT)...

Yes they will be bought with licensed production.



Zarvan said:


> Sir latest reports suggest we are not even testing MPT-76



Only initial studies are going on right now... The Weapons and Tactics Branch (GHQ) will select weapons after complete satisfaction.. The first to test these weapons will be SSG.. And from what I've gathered .. SSG hasn't been given any weapon to test -- as of yet....

It might take alot of time before any rifle is selected.

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## Amaa'n

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> It might take alot of time before any rifle is selected.


bhai --- weapons are already being tested by the relevant branch ---- not everything has to go through SSG --- baqi bhi maskeen foji hain

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## DESERT FIGHTER

balixd said:


> bhai --- weapons are already being tested by the relevant branch ---- not everything has to go through SSG --- baqi bhi maskeen foji hain


Bhai ... All rifles are sent to SSG for testing... PK-08 was declared a failure by SSG ... And as I said .. The weapons and tactics branch has set up a committee which is still conducting "studies"...


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## Amaa'n

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Bhai ... All rifles are sent to SSG for testing... PK-08 was declared a failure by SSG ... And as I said .. The weapons and tactics branch has set up a committee which is still conducting "studies"...


no worries janab, i might be wrong ----  --- but you are forgetting i shared the pics of VT4, Sniper Bolt action, IED Factory bust in Bara, a Suspected terrorist caught while recon the Military residential area in Westridge - rawalpindi ------
so somewhere down the road you may see the photos of these too

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## DESERT FIGHTER

balixd said:


> no worries janab, i might be wrong ----  --- but you are forgetting i shared the pics of VT4, Sniper Bolt action, IED Factory bust in Bara, a Suspected terrorist caught while recon the Military residential area in Westridge - rawalpindi ------
> so somewhere down the road you may see the photos of these too



Vt4 pics tou Bhai .. Koanalpha? Nay share ki thi..

Anyways .. Let's hope for the best.. 


P.S; hope the bolt action succeeds.

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## Amaa'n

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Vt4 pics tou Bhai .. Koanalpha? Nay share ki thi..
> 
> Anyways .. Let's hope for the best..
> 
> 
> P.S; hope the bolt action succeeds.


he shared those of Oplot M ----vt4 by me, in same thread

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## Tipu7

balixd said:


> he shared those of Oplot M ----vt4 by me, in same thread


Then you should tell us about update on tank trials too ..........
We still have one TXX tank about which we know nothing..... also, T84 was supposed to return in back December with new engine for further trials...... updates plz........ otherwise @Zarvan will ask you plenty of stuff himself

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## Zarvan

balixd said:


> no worries janab, i might be wrong ----  --- but you are forgetting i shared the pics of VT4, Sniper Bolt action, IED Factory bust in Bara, a Suspected terrorist caught while recon the Military residential area in Westridge - rawalpindi ------
> so somewhere down the road you may see the photos of these too


Sir before sharing the pics at least ask your friends weather trials are in early stage or last stage.



Tipu7 said:


> Then you should tell us about update on tank trials too ..........
> We still have one TXX tank about which we know nothing..... also, T84 was supposed to return in back December with new engine for further trials...... updates plz........ otherwise @Zarvan will ask you plenty of stuff himself


What on earth is TXX ? I never heard of it


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## Tipu7

Zarvan said:


> Sir before sharing the pics at least ask your friends weather trials are in early stage or last stage.
> 
> 
> What on earth is TXX ? I never heard of it


I am using this name for fourth tank, whose name was never revealed........
VT4,T84,T99,TXX.........

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## rashid.sarwar

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Bhai ... All rifles are sent to SSG for testing... PK-08 was declared a failure by SSG ... And as I said .. The weapons and tactics branch has set up a committee which is still conducting "studies"...



Why PK-8 was declared failure by SSG, any particular short comming..?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

rashid.sarwar said:


> Why PK-8 was declared failure by SSG, any particular short comming..?


Jamming,breakage etc.

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## Amaa'n

Zarvan said:


> Sir before sharing the pics at least ask your friends weather trials are in early stage or last stage.
> 
> 
> What on earth is TXX ? I never heard of it


wait till mid of April, when am on off days --- now back at work in desert ,, but am sure nothing would have happened to tank, otherwise he would have told me by now ----



Tipu7 said:


> Then you should tell us about update on tank trials too ..........
> We still have one TXX tank about which we know nothing..... also, T84 was supposed to return in back December with new engine for further trials...... updates plz........ otherwise @Zarvan will ask you plenty of stuff himself


truth be said, being interrogated by Zarvan is like being interrogated by Phuppo about ur salary, job and Nai Gari ------- 

If we start sharing things like this on forums then Raw doesn't even need to spend resources on HUMINT, simply register on Defence.pk and they have all the updated news 

@Zarvan



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Jamming,breakage etc.


this should not have happened because same design is of HK32 5.56, so rechambering 7.62 G3 to 5.56 was not something new ----perhaps they did not study the design properly, or some sort of metallurgical issue

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## Cool_Soldier

Time to replace rifle and opt new reliable gun.


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## Talwar e Pakistan

Immanuel said:


> SCAR is way out of Pak's financial capacities, the civilian rifle costs over $3000 per unit in the US alone, without any optics. Mil spec versions will cost way more. Moreso, the rifle is not up for licenced manufacture. The Turkish rifles are the prudent choice.


Pakistan can easily afford SCARs; it would cost around 1.2-2 billion dollars; for a unit of 600-800 thousand. We have an excess budget of around 2 billion dollars due to inflation. So budget wont be a problem - but the question is; is it worth it?


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## Kompromat

Its not going to cost 2 billion in one year and the rifles we would built under license would be around one million because you'd also have to arm the LEAs.



Talwar e Pakistan said:


> Pakistan can easily afford SCARs; it would cost around 1.2-2 billion dollars; for a unit of 600-800 thousand. We have an excess budget of around 2 billion dollars due to inflation. So budget wont be a problem - but the question is; is it worth it?

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## Talwar e Pakistan

Horus said:


> Its not going to cost 2 billion in one year and the rifles we would built under license would be around one million because you'd also have to arm the LEAs.


Am talking about overall expense


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## DESERT FIGHTER

balixd said:


> wait till mid of April, when am on off days --- now back at work in desert ,, but am sure nothing would have happened to tank, otherwise he would have told me by now ----
> 
> 
> truth be said, being interrogated by Zarvan is like being interrogated by Phuppo about ur salary, job and Nai Gari -------
> 
> If we start sharing things like this on forums then Raw doesn't even need to spend resources on HUMINT, simply register on Defence.pk and they have all the updated news
> 
> @Zarvan
> 
> 
> this should not have happened because same design is of HK32 5.56, so rechambering 7.62 G3 to 5.56 was not something new ----perhaps they did not study the design properly, or some sort of metallurgical issue



Most likely metallurgical Fuk ups paired with jamming/bullet gettin stuck in chamber --- that sorta thing.... That's if we take SSG officers word for it... Few dozen units were sent to SSG fir evaluation.


P.S; even G-3 jams in Siachin and even in desert conditions(if not cleaned properly).

Also PK-08 was more like a cross between G3 & MP.

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## Wolfhound

Horus said:


> Its not going to cost 2 billion in one year and the rifles we would built under license would be around one million because you'd also have to arm the LEAs.


The number would go up to 1.5 million in the long run if you consider the fact that it will also arm paramilitary, the marines, army reserves, navy reserves and all kinds of police forces.


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## PARIKRAMA

Sadly too many new account pop up and derail many threads... I wish management can restrict them to general section for a stipulated period+posts to ascertain if they are genuine posters or trolls. or keep them out from threads like this..


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## Amaa'n

*A request to Indian members and other Pakistani fellows --- Please leave this thread if you are going to indulge yourself in D!ck measuring contest ---- because if that happens, I will surely invite you all and then you guys can have all the stag to your self and brag, whose bigger than whom ---- till then --- ZIP IT*

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## Tipu7

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Most likely metallurgical Fuk ups paired with jamming/bullet gettin stuck in chamber --- that sorta thing.... That's if we take SSG officers word for it... Few dozen units were sent to SSG fir evaluation.
> 
> 
> P.S; even G-3 jams in Siachin and even in desert conditions(if not cleaned properly).
> 
> Also PK-08 was more like a cross between G3 & MP.


I can assure you it must be a metallurgical issue. Pakistan armed forces don't hire enough and capable material engineers and try to utilize mechanical engineers. As a result in the field of material quality, Pakistani products lags behind even from benchmark standards.......
I doubt quality of material of APCs produced in HIT for same reason........



balixd said:


> *A request to Indian members and other Pakistani fellows --- Please leave this thread if you are going to indulge yourself in D!ck measuring contest ---- because if that happens, I will surely invite you all and then you guys can have all the stag to your self and brag, whose bigger than whom ---- till then --- ZIP IT*


Since Indians also tested and "rejected" CZ805 and a rifle of same series is also under trials in Pakistan........ so it's natural for them to start D!ck measuring contest........ if Pakistan ever picked CZ805 with 7.76mm caliber then this discussion will become more hot. Indians will say "Pakistan selected a low class weapon which was REJECTED by Indians" and then verbal war will begun on this Topic........

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## RAMPAGE

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> Am talking about overall expense


Look at it like this: Pakistan gets 100% ToT for FN SCAR H in return for 10% royalty payed to FN for every rifle produced. Local production will cut the costs by 50% and you'll have a rifle for $1650 after paying $150 to FN. 

If we produce 1.1 millioin rifles, FN will gain $165 million worth of profits over the course of 5-10 years.


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## Talwar e Pakistan

RAMPAGE said:


> Look at it like this: Pakistan gets 100% ToT for FN SCAR H in return for 10% royalty payed to FN for every rifle produced. Local production will cut the costs by 50% and you'll have a rifle for $1650 after paying $150 to FN.
> 
> If we produce 1.1 millioin rifles, FN will gain $165 million worth of profits over the course of 5-10 years.


I see, I took the cost as 3k instead of 1.6k; but nonetheless - this means we have no financial problems when it comes to procuring a new rifle.


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## RAMPAGE

BACKGROUND​
Trail plan shared with OEMs/Firms on 5th November 2015.
Ammo lots with better accuracy during proof firing identified and intimated to authorities concerned.
Paper evaluation of each offered weapon by I of A. (I of A?)
Tech trials scheduled to commence from 15th December 2015. Could not be started due to non-receipt of any weapon.
Finally 5 x weapons we received in 3rd week of Jan 2015.
One week familiarization training imparted to Individual Training Directorate (?) and user representatives by respective OEMs.
Tech trials and user winter trails started concurrently from 4th week of Jan 2015.








*Please point out errors if you notice any and also explain the acronyms.*















@balixd @DESERT FIGHTER @Zarvan @Horus

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## RAMPAGE

@Horus

Merge this thread with the sticky thread on the subject if you feel the need to.


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## Kompromat

SCAR will win.

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## Tipu7

Horus said:


> SCAR will win.


We will see. 

We are not choosing the Rifle with Best results, but Rifle with best suitability with our Armed forces, economy, doctrine and conditions..................



RAMPAGE said:


> Finally 5 x weapons we received in 3rd week of Jan 2015.


We know about Four............................ where is fifth rifle? 
@balixd time to ''leak'' more details .............. you were hiding one weapon this whole time.................not fair.

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## Haider_Abbas

Sir jee can anyone tell me which 5 rifles are under trail?? Please wont be able to sleep until i know

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## RAMPAGE

Haider_Abbas said:


> Sir jee can anyone tell me which 5 rifles are under trail?? Please wont be able to sleep until i know



Pakistan's Future Service Rifle. | Page 40

There you go, Bro. Sleep tight.

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## Haider_Abbas

Thanks bro. Ek sawal hai which one u think is gona win? I think scar or cz is the best one what about u guys? 

Hahaha ab yeh soch kar neend nahi ayegi ke kaunsi rifle select hogi


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## muhammadali233

Tipu7 said:


> We will see.
> 
> We know about Four............................ where is fifth rifle?
> .


G3-A5


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## django

RAMPAGE said:


> Look at it like this: Pakistan gets 100% ToT for FN SCAR H in return for 10% royalty payed to FN for every rifle produced. Local production will cut the costs by 50% and you'll have a rifle for $1650 after paying $150 to FN.
> 
> If we produce 1.1 millioin rifles, FN will gain $165 million worth of profits over the course of 5-10 years.


But will the locally assembled FN SCAR be of the same standard as the ones manufactured in Belgium.


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## Talwar e Pakistan

I think Ak-103 or QBZ will most likely win these trails.


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## Icarus

Horus said:


> SCAR will win.



There is the cost issue to deal with, the SCAR is a relatively expensive platform.

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## Kompromat

Costs can be mitigated by mass production. SCAR is expensive when produced in limited numbers at European factories. Its a modular platform that offers us a Battle Rifle, Designated Marksman Rifle, Short Barrel Rifle, Standard Barrel Rifle, Close Quarters Combat Rifle as well as a Personal Defense Weapon all on one production line. SCAR is like the F-35 of rifles, one solution for all applications a soldier needs in modern battlefield. That said Pakistani solider today is a cutting edge war machine, he needs to be given a fire arm he really deserves. It will boost their morale and confidence as well as their combat capabilities. 



Icarus said:


> There is the cost issue to deal with, the SCAR is a relatively expensive platform.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

COAS visit to POF -- undertrial rifles;

Pakistan Military Multimedia | Page 326

@Immanuel oops that's a scar in the pic..

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## Sulman Badshah

Horus said:


> SCAR will win.


SCAR is indeed good .. SIG 716 is also a impressive weapon in trials


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## RAMPAGE

django said:


> But will the locally assembled FN SCAR be of the same standard as the ones manufactured in Belgium.


Quality standards of are ALWAYS maintained.

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## Path-Finder

Well We now have conformation that Army is serious about inducting a new rifle and that is good, May the Best rifle Win!


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## Kompromat

Not sure if any SIG is contending 



Sulman Badshah said:


> SCAR is indeed good .. SIG 716 is also a impressive weapon in trials


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## Sulman Badshah

Horus said:


> Not sure if any SIG is contending


*2nd last bigger rifle with bipod looks like SIG 716 *







Here is clear picture of SIG716 (but with bigger scope)

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## Path-Finder

FN
CZ 
AK

spotted so far.

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## Sage

Horus said:


> Costs can be mitigated by mass production. SCAR is expensive when produced in limited numbers at European factories. Its a modular platform that offers us a Battle Rifle, Designated Marksman Rifle, Short Barrel Rifle, Standard Barrel Rifle, Close Quarters Combat Rifle as well as a Personal Defense Weapon all on one production line. SCAR is like the F-35 of rifles, one solution for all applications a soldier needs in modern battlefield. That said Pakistani solider today is a cutting edge war machine, he needs to be given a fire arm he really deserves. It will boost their morale and confidence as well as their combat capabilities.


There are other rifles too with the same buffet of benefits ...why you are stuck in SCAR ...?


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## RAMPAGE

> (I of A?) (ITD?)



@Icarus

Meaning of these acronyms?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Path-Finder said:


> FN
> CZ
> AK
> 
> spotted so far.



Seems like COAS is holding a Beryl in one of the pics!


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## Path-Finder



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## ZedZeeshan

And any 1 of these guns will replace G3 of PAK Army..?


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## Path-Finder

What flag is the Guy in Blue Jacket?


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## RAMPAGE

Path-Finder said:


> View attachment 299013
> View attachment 299014
> View attachment 299015


Link for this HD video?


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## Path-Finder

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Seems like COAS is holding a Beryl in one of the pics!


You know the rifle after FN?



RAMPAGE said:


> Link for this HD video?


I dont Have that. Sorry!


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## django

RAMPAGE said:


> Quality standards of are ALWAYS maintained.


Let us hope so.


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## Nattmara

Path-Finder said:


> What flag is the Guy in Blue Jacket?



Serbia.






Might have brought their M21 for trials:













Sage said:


> There are other rifles too with the same buffet of benefits ...why you are stuck in SCAR ...?



The HK417 compares well to the SCAR-H. It's much less controllable on full-auto though.

HK417:





Of course this kid seems a bit small for the weapon... and he's using it wrong anyway. Full auto with that scope?

SCAR-H:





Short barrel? Check.






Standard? Check.






Designated Marksman Rifle? Also check.






It also has a Dedicated Sniper variant, which has a longer, heavier barrel.











Fits any NATO attachment, so modularity isn't a problem. It's just costly.

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## Path-Finder

That means the rifle we were informed about as being QBZ may well have Been Serbian M21!

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## RAMPAGE

Path-Finder said:


> I dont Have that. Sorry!


Where did you get those pics from?


Path-Finder said:


> That means the rifle we were informed about as being QBZ may well have Been Serbian M21!


@balixd

Don't you think its time to share those pics of yours?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

@proka89 which Serbian rifle is that?


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## Thunder.Storm

FN SCAR H





What is Bullpup.

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## Path-Finder

RAMPAGE said:


> Where did you get those pics from?
> @balixd
> 
> Don't you think its time to share those pics of yours?



Twitter, Why Not Take these Photos and put them in your First post at least then it will better to be top of the thread rather than page 2!

GOT IT!!!!!

BERETTA ARX 200


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Path-Finder said:


> You know the rifle after FN?
> 
> 
> I dont Have that. Sorry!


Bren !

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## ConcealCarry

Total costs go up with higher volumes and local production requires high initial investment in facilities, equipment, installation, training, licensing and probably royalties. costs can go down only if you are allowed to export independently (either not possible or with high royalty to safeguard their own financial interests) or they themselves start buying parts from you at a lower cost (win win for both) 



Horus said:


> Costs can be mitigated by mass production. SCAR is expensive when produced in limited numbers at European factories. Its a modular platform that offers us a Battle Rifle, Designated Marksman Rifle, Short Barrel Rifle, Standard Barrel Rifle, Close Quarters Combat Rifle as well as a Personal Defense Weapon all on one production line. SCAR is like the F-35 of rifles, one solution for all applications a soldier needs in modern battlefield. That said Pakistani solider today is a cutting edge war machine, he needs to be given a fire arm he really deserves. It will boost their morale and confidence as well as their combat capabilities.


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## Path-Finder

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Bren !


Bren is the one with curved magazine and guy wearing CZ shirt and cap standing in front. the rifle between FN and Serbian rifle is Beretta ARX, higly possible!

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## ConcealCarry

Serbia



Path-Finder said:


> What flag is the Guy in Blue Jacket?


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## RAMPAGE

Path-Finder said:


> Bren is the one with curved magazine and guy wearing CZ shirt and cap standing in front. the rifle between FN and Serbian rifle is Beretta ARX, higly possible!


I did saw an Italian flag.


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## Path-Finder

RAMPAGE said:


> I did saw an Italian flag.



FN
Beretta
Serbian M21?
CZ Bren
AK

This is the lineup of rifles being tested and none are chambered in 5.56. All are 7.62


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## RAMPAGE

Path-Finder said:


> FN
> Beretta
> Serbian M21?
> CZ Bren
> AK
> 
> This is the lineup of rifles being tested and none are chambered in 5.56.* All are 7.62*


How can you tell? magazine size?


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## The Sandman

Get SCAR-H my fav rifle in BF4 after SAR-21 
But seriously SCAR looks like a good option because it has so many modifications and our troops at least deserve a good rifle


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## Path-Finder

RAMPAGE said:


> How can you tell? magazine size?








one comparison between the two ARX rifle you can see the stock is thicker for the large caliber. 
FN assumption
CZ Bren has a AK like magazine with a curve tall tail sign for 7.62x39

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## proka89

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> @proka89 which Serbian rifle is that?



Cant say for sure, but if we participate in this, probably some version of Zastava M21.

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## RAMPAGE

@Path-Finder

You are correct. The rifle next to the Scar is indeed a Beretta ARX-200 7.62 x 51.

Cheers.

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## proka89

Found this on Serbian forum:


> Pre par meseci je bio tender za Pakistansku armiju,pucale su po dve puske od svakog ponudjaca do funkcionalnog loma. Svi su otpali izmedju 10 000 i 15 000 metaka,neki i ispod 10 000. Obustavljeno je pucanje sa nasim puskama na 20 000 jer nisu pokazivale znake bilo kakve pohabanosti.



Guy who wrote this works in Zastva and this is from 2013. And translation is:

"A few months ago was the tender for the Pakistani army. Every bidder shoot with two rifles up to functional breakdown of the rifle. All had fallen between 10 000 and 15 000 bullets, some of them under 10, 000. They stopped testing of our rifles after 20 000 bullets, because they were not showing any signs of wear"

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## That Guy

Sage said:


> There are other rifles too with the same buffet of benefits ...why you are stuck in SCAR ...?


Because the other rifles on offer aren't as good. It's not about obsession, rather it looks like the clear cut winner will be the SCAR, simply because it's the best option available.

@Nattmara the hk-416/7 isn't in the competition.

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## RAMPAGE

That Guy said:


> Because the other rifles on offer aren't as good. It's not about obsession, rather it looks like the clear cut winner will be the SCAR, simply because it's the best option available.
> 
> @Nattmara the hk-416/7 isn't in the competition.


Beretta ARX-200 7.62 x 51 is also on the stall and a Beretta is something that Pakistanis understand.

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## That Guy

RAMPAGE said:


> Beretta ARX-200 7.62 x 51 is also on the stall and a Beretta is something that Pakistanis understand.


I doubt it will be picked, it's seen some service in Sindh, so it has a chance, but against the SCAR and even the Bren, it faces an extremely tough challenge.

I'm confident that PA will probably pick SCAR.


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## ConcealCarry

Do you know what does that mean?

Excess budget due to inflation means that (for example) last year Rs. 1000 budget (=US$10 at Rs. 100/US$) will now be Rs 1050 this year because now 1 US$=105 PKR, so essentially your budget has gone up by 50 rupees but your purchasing power has not.



Talwar e Pakistan said:


> Pakistan can easily afford SCARs; it would cost around 1.2-2 billion dollars; for a unit of 600-800 thousand. *We have an excess budget of around 2 billion dollars due to inflation.* So budget wont be a problem - but the question is; is it worth it?



Your assumption of 50% reduction in production cost is based on what? Lets analyze production cost,
Typically (not all, depending on the complexity and number of operations) production cost of an engineered item in Pakistan would be

Materials = 70 ~ 80%
Direct Labout = 5 ~ 10%
Overheads = 15~20%

Lets assume materials used are basic and easily available and the cost remains the same for the foreign OEM or Pakistan. if is advanced materials, then probably our costs would be much higher due to import at cost+profit basis 

Overheads for Pakistan would be very high due to new investment in machinery and equipment, training, setup and trial run costs

That leaves labour, which would be lower than as compared to any foreign manufacturer, but even if we reduce it by 100%, it's only 5-10% cost reduction. 





RAMPAGE said:


> Look at it like this: Pakistan gets 100% ToT for FN SCAR H in return for 10% royalty payed to FN for every rifle produced. Local production will cut the costs by 50% and you'll have a rifle for $1650 after paying $150 to FN.
> 
> If we produce 1.1 millioin rifles, FN will gain $165 million worth of profits over the course of 5-10 years.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Scar
Beretta 
Bren 
Beryl 
M21
AK 100 series

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## Wolfhound

Sage said:


> There are other rifles too with the same buffet of benefits ...why you are stuck in SCAR ...?





Nattmara said:


> I know, just offering a comparison to the Scar-H, as was asked for by Sage. He wanted to know if;
> 
> "_There are other rifles too with the same buffet of benefits_"
> 
> Source: https://defence.pk/threads/details-coas-briefed-on-future-standard-rifle-trails.425906/page-2#ixzz430nGew3n
> 
> Which there are, that would include other high-caliber rifles like the HK-417, MPT-76 and Russian alternatives like AK-103/104.



The Fn scar is as of right now the best in the market, it can be considered even better than Hk416. The main advantages it has are, is its* low recoil* because of its unique muzzle break(Even its 7.62 rounds recoil comes close to even that of a 5.56 round of an average rifle), *Ease of assembly and reassembly* without the use of any tools(Hk416 needs 3 tools for all adjustments), It has a *chrome lined barrel* which increases barrel life and reliability{Hk416 doesnt have a chrome lined barrel as Hk believes that it reduces accuracy(total bullshit) and says that the opportunity cost is justified},* Ambidextrous charging handle*(The Hk416 retains the T shape M16 charging handle which has its own flaws), The Fn scar is* lighter *than most rifles with a standard weight of 3.29 kgs(The standard Hk416 weighs at 3.560kg), _And lastly_ _the most important part the Fn scar is *more *_*reliable* than any other operational rifle, this is what it scored in the now canceled individual carbine competition "The XM8(Not operational) scored the best, with only 127 stoppages in 60,000 total rounds, the *FN SCAR Light had 226 stoppages,* while the *HK416 had 233 stoppages*. The M4 carbine scored "significantly worse" than the rest of the field with 882 stoppages".

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## Nattmara

That Guy said:


> @Nattmara the hk-416/7 isn't in the competition.



I know, just offering a comparison to the Scar-H, as was asked for by Sage. He wanted to know if;

"_There are other rifles too with the same buffet of benefits_"

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/details-coas-briefed-on-future-standard-rifle-trails.425906/page-2#ixzz430nGew3n

Which there are, that would include other high-caliber rifles like the HK-417, MPT-76 and Russian alternatives like AK-103/104.

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## AUz

How about joint-production of MPT-76---customized according to Pakistani needs and build by Pakistan under transfer of technology agreement with Turkey?


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## RAMPAGE

ConcealCarry said:


> Your assumption of 50% reduction in production cost is based on what? Lets analyze production cost,
> Typically (not all, depending on the complexity and number of operations) production cost of an engineered item in Pakistan would be
> 
> Materials = 70 ~ 80%
> Direct Labout = 5 ~ 10%
> Overheads = 15~20%
> 
> Lets assume materials used are basic and easily available and the cost remains the same for the foreign OEM or Pakistan. if is advanced materials, then probably our costs would be much higher due to import at cost+profit basis
> 
> Overheads for Pakistan would be very high due to new investment in machinery and equipment, training, setup and trial run costs
> 
> That leaves labour, which would be lower than as compared to any foreign manufacturer, but even if we reduce it by 100%, it's only 5-10% cost reduction.


It is late and I am tired so I may not be able to fully grasp your post. Also, I am not an expert. My assumption was based on the cheap labour available to us.

What about the production costs in US? direct labour percentage?

Why would overheads be so high? Its not like we are starting from scratch? I doubt we have to import/buy a lot of machinery. I also doubt that the rest of things would cost us a lot.

@ConcealCarry 

Also, You forgot to deduct the profit from MSRP.


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## That Guy

AUz said:


> How about joint-production of MPT-76---customized according to Pakistani needs and build by Pakistan under transfer of technology agreement with Turkey?


Not being offered, so no.


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## That Guy

RAMPAGE said:


> Look at it like this: Pakistan gets 100% ToT for FN SCAR H in return for 10% royalty payed to FN for every rifle produced. Local production will cut the costs by 50% and you'll have a rifle for $1650 after paying $150 to FN.
> 
> If we produce 1.1 millioin rifles, FN will gain $165 million worth of profits over the course of 5-10 years.


Where on earth did you get those numbers?


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## ghazi52

.................






Chief of Army Staff General Raheel Sharif inspects a weapon during his visit to the Pakistan Ordnance Factory in Wah on March 15, 2016. PHOTO: ISPR
...


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## Dil Pakistan

@balixd @DESERT FIGHTER @Zarvan @Horus[/QUOTE]


On a side note, the guy behind COAS is (I think) is Lt. Gen. Z. M. Hayat. This is the first time I have seen his picture.

Looks like a copy of General Shareef

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## That Guy

Dil Pakistan said:


> @balixd @DESERT FIGHTER @Zarvan @Horus
> On a side note, the guy behind COAS is (I think) is Lt. Gen. Z. M. Hayat. This is the first time I have seen his picture.
> 
> Looks like a copy of General Shareef


It's what I like to call the "Military statesmen" look. It's basically a "military uniform + mustache" look.


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## Moonlight

Excuse my lack of knowledge but I want to know, if Pakistan produces these rifles or asked from the other countries?


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## That Guy

@Quwa @Horus @Icarus @Irfan Baloch @balixd

With this news out, is it safe to say that the competition is nearing it's end, or at least close to the end? I only ask, because it remained an open secret up until now, and the rifles have apparently already been heavily tested.

Also, can we merge this thread with Pakistan's Future Service Rifle.?


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## That Guy

ghazi52 said:


> .................
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chief of Army Staff General Raheel Sharif inspects a weapon during his visit to the Pakistan Ordnance Factory in Wah on March 15, 2016. PHOTO: ISPR
> ...


He looks super interested in the Bren(?), maybe he has a favorite already?


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## Path-Finder

That Guy said:


> @Quwa @Horus @Icarus @Irfan Baloch @balixd
> 
> With this news out, is it safe to say that the competition is nearing it's end, or at least close to the end? I only ask, because it remained an open secret up until now, and the rifles have apparently already been heavily tested.
> 
> Also, can we merge this thread with Pakistan's Future Service Rifle.?



I humbly request Not to merge but continue on this as the Final candidates are now known to us. Thanks. 
@Quwa @Horus @Icarus @Irfan Baloch @balixd

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## That Guy

Path-Finder said:


> I humbly request Not to merge but continue on this as the Final candidates are now known to us. Thanks.
> @Quwa @Horus @Icarus @Irfan Baloch @balixd


Why? We can continue this discussion on the merged thread. It's super annoying going back and forth, even though both threads are basically having the exact same discussion.


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## Path-Finder

That Guy said:


> Why? We can continue this discussion on the merged thread. It's super annoying going back and forth, even though both threads are basically having the exact same discussion.


I just made a suggestion. We didnt know the participation in the competition now we do for sure. we can continue here until a winner is announced. other thread is too many pages of personal wish list. this is solid. But I leave it up to Mods!


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## Amaa'n

now that ISPR has come forward with details and pics, then who the heck i am to sit on these clear pics --- @DESERT FIGHTER @Bratva @Quwa -----


















@Horus @WAJsal @Jango - thread should be merged with other one ----



Sulman Badshah said:


> *2nd last bigger rifle with bipod looks like SIG 716 *
> 
> View attachment 299011
> 
> 
> Here is clear picture of SIG716 (but with bigger scope)
> View attachment 299012


nope not Sauer --- its AK family -- look at the front sight & Gas Piston on the top, right behind the Front sight

Edit: ops my bad, you were on third gun, yeah looks to be Sig.....the fifth weapon ---- i may have overlooked the weapon while transferring photos from the friend's phone --- u can understand the excitement, when i was looking at all these beauties -- right here in Pakistan ----



That Guy said:


> @Quwa @Horus @Icarus @Irfan Baloch @balixd
> 
> With this news out, is it safe to say that the competition is nearing it's end, or at least close to the end? I only ask, because it remained an open secret up until now, and the rifles have apparently already been heavily tested.
> 
> Also, can we merge this thread with Pakistan's Future Service Rifle.?


no its only the start --- Weapons were only received in Jan 2016 ---- and I received these photos in Feb ----so trails are still happening ---- i think HK, MPT did not responded to our request ---

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## DESERT FIGHTER

balixd said:


> now that ISPR has come forward with details and pics, then who the heck i am to sit on these clear pics --- @DESERT FIGHTER @Bratva @Quwa -----
> View attachment 299031
> View attachment 299032
> View attachment 299033
> View attachment 299034
> View attachment 299035
> 
> 
> @Horus @WAJsal @Jango - thread should be merged with other one ----
> 
> 
> nope not Sauer --- its AK family -- look at the front sight & Gas Piston on the top, right behind the Front sight
> 
> Edit: ops my bad, you were on third gun, yeah looks to be Sig.....the fifth weapon
> 
> 
> no its only the start --- Weapons were only received in Jan 2016 ---- and I received these photos in Feb ----so trails are still happening ---- i think HK, MPT did not responded to our request ---



The third weapon is most likely the Serbian M-21 (Serbian guy standing behind the display).


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## Amaa'n

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> The third weapon is most likely the Serbian M-21 (Serbian guy standing behind the display).


no its QBZ --- Zastava M21 has a different sight system ---

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## Tipu7

balixd said:


> now that ISPR has come forward with details and pics, then who the heck i am to sit on these clear pics


One with grenade launcher...... is it CZ805?


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## Haider_Abbas

yes i agree the third weapon is serbian m21 in 7.62 x 51mm nato. But the cz 807 calibre is way different from 5.56 as the magazine is way too curved


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## Amaa'n

Tipu7 said:


> One with grenade launcher...... is it CZ805?


its SCAR H



Dil Pakistan said:


> @balixd @DESERT FIGHTER @Zarvan @Horus




On a side note, the guy behind COAS is (I think) is Lt. Gen. Z. M. Hayat. This is the first time I have seen his picture.

Looks like a copy of General Shareef [/QUOTE]
i think Chief has set his eyes on Bren --- look at the way hes checking her out

I better run before @Zarvan comes here ---- hes gona waterboard me to death with all the statements i have given to him in his last interrogations 

(jk) i have to get back to work

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## DESERT FIGHTER

balixd said:


> no its QBZ --- Zastava M21 has a different sight system ---



That's 6 weapons;

QBZ
Scar
Bren 
AK
M-21
ARX

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## Amaa'n

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> That's 6 weapons;
> 
> QBZ
> Scar
> Bren
> AK
> M-21
> ARX


5 weapons ---- either its QBZ or M21 --- even OP says only 5 weapons received

picks and info is their --- you guys can compare all the specs and pics with OEMs and confirm the exact calibre ----

btw we forgot to tag @Icarus @Irfan Baloch ---- sir please check Page -4

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## Tipu7

Moonlight said:


> Excuse my lack of knowledge but I want to know, if Pakistan produces these rifles or asked from the other countries?


Pakistan is going to replace G3 as standard battle rifle. One will be chosen from all these rifles.


balixd said:


> - either its QBZ or M21



There is no Chinese there....... But one from Serbia, yes....... Could be M21........



Haider_Abbas said:


> yes i agree the third weapon is serbian m21 in 7.62 x 51mm nato. But the cz 807 calibre is way different from 5.56 as the magazine is way too curved


It's 7.62 NATO.........


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## Moonlight

Tipu7 said:


> Pakistan is going to replace G3 as standard battle rifle. One will be chosen from all these rifles.



Thanks


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## Zarvan

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Scar
> Beretta
> Bren
> Beryl
> M21
> AK 100 series


Post picture of the Guns with them please and @balixd I couldn't come because at home thanks to PTCL my net is dead since sunday other wise the moment I say this news on TV I knew Why Army chief was at POF. I had lot of questions but still let see what happens. My choice is FN SCAR.



balixd said:


> now that ISPR has come forward with details and pics, then who the heck i am to sit on these clear pics --- @DESERT FIGHTER @Bratva @Quwa -----
> View attachment 299031
> View attachment 299032
> View attachment 299033
> View attachment 299034
> View attachment 299035
> 
> 
> @Horus @WAJsal @Jango - thread should be merged with other one ----
> 
> 
> nope not Sauer --- its AK family -- look at the front sight & Gas Piston on the top, right behind the Front sight
> 
> Edit: ops my bad, you were on third gun, yeah looks to be Sig.....the fifth weapon ---- i may have overlooked the weapon while transferring photos from the friend's phone --- u can understand the excitement, when i was looking at all these beauties -- right here in Pakistan ----
> 
> 
> no its only the start --- Weapons were only received in Jan 2016 ---- and I received these photos in Feb ----so trails are still happening ---- i think HK, MPT did not responded to our request ---


What is the name of the Gun in 4th picture ? @DESERT FIGHTER @balixd @Tipu7 @Sulman Badshah


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## Tipu7

Zarvan said:


> Post picture of the Guns with them please and @balixd I couldn't come because at home thanks to PTCL my net is dead since sunday other wise the moment I say this news on TV I knew Why Army chief was at POF. I had lot of questions but still let see what happens. My choice is FN SCAR.
> 
> 
> What is the name of the Gun in 4th picture ? @DESERT FIGHTER @balixd @Tipu7 @Sulman Badshah


M21 Zastava (Serbia)

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## Zarvan

Tipu7 said:


> View attachment 299040
> 
> M21 Zastava (Serbia)


Please can you post the pictures of all the Guns under trials with their pictures


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## That Guy

Moonlight said:


> Thanks


@Tipu7

I don't think ots just the G3 being replaced, the presence of Bren and ARX-160 tells me that Pakistan's standard assault rifle is about to get replaced as well.


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## Tipu7

Just for Simplicity of people

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## Amaa'n

Tipu7 said:


> Pakistan is going to replace G3 as standard battle rifle. One will be chosen from all these rifles.
> 
> 
> There is no Chinese there....... But one from Serbia, yes....... Could be M21........
> 
> 
> It's 7.62 NATO.........


the kind of confusion i had over these weapons is over the board -- truth be said ---- ARX was not mentioned, only name of these were taken ---- but then again, i should have been able to identify the guns myself ---- but i couldn't --- extremely disappointed with myself over this ---- 



Tipu7 said:


> Just for Simplicity of people
> 
> 
> View attachment 299052


although i carry a Zastava myself on daily basis and trust it with my life but noway it stands a chance with CZ807 & SCAR H ----i think it is down to these too ----

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## Tipu7

That Guy said:


> I don't think ots just the G3 being replaced, the presence of Bren and ARX-160 tells me that Pakistan's standard assault rifle is about to get replaced as well.


Hopefully.



balixd said:


> the kind of confusion i had over these weapons is over the board -- truth be said ---- ARX was not mentioned, only name of these were taken ---- but then again, i should have been able to identify the guns myself ---- but i couldn't --- extremely disappointed with myself over this ----



You passed @Zarvan through great trouble.

First he wasted so much power praising about MPT76 .....................
Then he wasted so much blood cursing QBZ03...............
Then he wasted a lot of energy wondering why ARX160 is not there

Now he is fine 



balixd said:


> although i carry a Zastava myself on daily basis and trust it with my life but noway it stands a chance with CZ807 & SCAR H ----i think it is down to these too ----


its ARX200 vs ScarH now.............. @Horus @Zarvan time to rethink about your love with ScarH....................

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## Amaa'n

That Guy said:


> @Tipu7
> 
> I don't think ots just the G3 being replaced, the presence of Bren and ARX-160 tells me that Pakistan's standard assault rifle is about to get replaced as well.


the trails are among the calibre too and not among weapons only --- reports by Colt M4a1 users is it is far more accurate then 7.62x39 at long range (SSG Officer) --- where as AK / Type 56 struggled hitting accurately at the long range - beyond 400m---- tested out in Khyber 1 op --- hence the comparison among the calibres to pick the best suitable



Tipu7 said:


> Hopefully.
> 
> 
> 
> You passed @Zarvan through great trouble.
> 
> First he wasted so much power praising about MPT76 .....................
> Then he wasted so much blood cursing QBZ03...............
> Then he wasted a lot of energy wondering why ARX160 is not there
> 
> Now he is fine
> 
> 
> its ARX200 vs ScarH now.............. @Horus @Zarvan time to rethink about your love with ScarH....................


CZ over Beretta any day --- Bren would eat ARX in lunch and dinner ----

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## Tipu7

balixd said:


> the trails are among the calibre too and not among weapons only --- reports by Colt M4a1 users is it is far more accurate then 7.62x39 at long range (SSG Officer) --- where as AK / Type 56 struggled hitting accurately at the long range - beyond 400m---- tested out in Khyber 1 op --- hence the comparison among the calibres to pick the best suitable
> 
> 
> CZ over Beretta any day --- Bren would eat ARX in lunch and dinner ----


Is there any news about installation of new plant for bullet production in POF? 7.62mm?

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## Amaa'n

Tipu7 said:


> Is there any news about installation of new plant for bullet production in POF? 7.62mm?


didn't hear this --- but we are making new .308 ammos now


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## Tipu7

balixd said:


> CZ over Beretta any day


Reason for that................?

(it was rejected by Indians. Its a failed weapon: Indian logic)


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## That Guy

Tipu7 said:


> Just for Simplicity of people
> 
> 
> View attachment 299052


The cz looks like the 805, simply due to mag which seems like a 5.56 caliber mag.

The arx also seems like a 160, as from what I've gathered, the arx-200 is still in development, and the picture seems to show it using a stanag mag being used.


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## Amaa'n

@Tipu7 -- not sure if you guys have heard this or not but PA - Regular troops have Gun Simulators now- same one used by Marine corps



That Guy said:


> The cz looks like the 805, simply due to mag which seems like a 5.56 caliber stanag mag.
> 
> The arx also seems like a 160, as from what I've gathered, the arx-200 is still in development, and the picture seems to show it using a stanag mag being used.


Bren is 556 --- A2 ---

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## That Guy

balixd said:


> @Tipu7 -- not sure if you guys have heard this or not but PA - Regular troops have Gun Simulators now- same one used by Marine corps
> 
> 
> Bren is 556 --- A2 ---


That's what I thought, though I have to correct one mistake I made, the Bren is NOT using a stanag mag, but it does seem like a 5.56 mag.



Tipu7 said:


> Hopefully.
> 
> 
> 
> You passed @Zarvan through great trouble.
> 
> First he wasted so much power praising about MPT76 .....................
> Then he wasted so much blood cursing QBZ03...............
> Then he wasted a lot of energy wondering why ARX160 is not there
> 
> Now he is fine
> 
> 
> its ARX200 vs ScarH now.............. @Horus @Zarvan time to rethink about your love with ScarH....................


I think the COAS may have fallen in love with the CZ Bren, so it still has a chance, no matter how little that may be.


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## Zarvan

Tipu7 said:


> Reason for that................?
> 
> (it was rejected by Indians. Its a failed weapon: Indian logic)


Rejection of Indians is either because they are hell bent on going after inferior local Gun or they are upto something else. As for my choice I still prefer FN SCAR if not than Berreta ARX-200 or CN 805 BREN A2 but would never like to choose AK-103 or M-21


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## Maarkhoor

Icarus said:


> There is the cost issue to deal with, the SCAR is a relatively expensive platform.


Agreed any short listed weapon with TOT plus manufacturing plants and raw material would be selected, we can purchase huge number of weapons it requires billions of USD.


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## Path-Finder

balixd said:


> now that ISPR has come forward with details and pics, then who the heck i am to sit on these clear pics --- @DESERT FIGHTER @Bratva @Quwa -----
> View attachment 299031
> View attachment 299032
> View attachment 299033
> View attachment 299034
> View attachment 299035
> 
> 
> @Horus @WAJsal @Jango - thread should be merged with other one ----
> 
> 
> nope not Sauer --- its AK family -- look at the front sight & Gas Piston on the top, right behind the Front sight
> 
> Edit: ops my bad, you were on third gun, yeah looks to be Sig.....the fifth weapon ---- i may have overlooked the weapon while transferring photos from the friend's phone --- u can understand the excitement, when i was looking at all these beauties -- right here in Pakistan ----
> 
> 
> no its only the start --- Weapons were only received in Jan 2016 ---- and I received these photos in Feb ----so trails are still happening ---- i think HK, MPT did not responded to our request ---



Now you have made this even more interesting! You posted two pics of FN SCAR. the one with Grenade Launcher is chambered in 7.62x39 and the one in 7.62x51.

So there is a competition between calibers as well. 7.62x39 vs 7.62x51

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## Maarkhoor

Zarvan said:


> Rejection of Indians is either because they are hell bent on going after inferior local Gun or they are upto something else. As for my choice I still prefer FN SCAR if not than Berreta ARX-200 or CN 805 BREN A2 but would never like to choose AK-103 or M-21


Sir Why scar could you let us know about what type of metal used in barrel manufacturing and their characteristic on different temperatures. It uses blow back rotating mechanism or gas operating rotating bolt. Kindly provide us the details why you prefer scar over other rifles (technical details).

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Now you have made this even more interesting! You posted two pics of FN SCAR. the one with Grenade Launcher is chambered in 7.62x39 and the one in 7.62x51.
> 
> So there is a competition between calibers as well. 7.62x39 vs 7.62x51


Okay now I can understand why Army Chief inaugurated plant of 7.62 x 39 MM ammo. So we are testing two FN SCAR. I think Army has already made their mind about FN SCAR

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Okay now I can understand why Army Chief inaugurated plant of 7.62 x 39 MM ammo. So we are testing two FN SCAR. I think Army has already made their mind about FN SCAR



Lets wait for official conformation from the army about the winner and respect their decision "even" if FN does not win.


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## Zarvan

balixd said:


> now that ISPR has come forward with details and pics, then who the heck i am to sit on these clear pics --- @DESERT FIGHTER @Bratva @Quwa -----
> View attachment 299031
> View attachment 299032
> View attachment 299033
> View attachment 299034
> View attachment 299035
> 
> 
> @Horus @WAJsal @Jango - thread should be merged with other one ----
> 
> 
> nope not Sauer --- its AK family -- look at the front sight & Gas Piston on the top, right behind the Front sight
> 
> Edit: ops my bad, you were on third gun, yeah looks to be Sig.....the fifth weapon ---- i may have overlooked the weapon while transferring photos from the friend's phone --- u can understand the excitement, when i was looking at all these beauties -- right here in Pakistan ----
> 
> 
> no its only the start --- Weapons were only received in Jan 2016 ---- and I received these photos in Feb ----so trails are still happening ---- i think HK, MPT did not responded to our request ---


Sir do you really think if Turkey would have gotten a chance they would have not went for it. I think it's we who didn't went for both Turkish and Chinese Gun. I don't have idea about the reasons but it should be us who refused those Guns.


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## Amaa'n

Path-Finder said:


> Now you have made this even more interesting! You posted two pics of FN SCAR. the one with Grenade Launcher is chambered in 7.62x39 and the one in 7.62x51.
> 
> So there is a competition between calibers as well. 7.62x39 vs 7.62x51


no --- both are same SCAR H - 51N --- you are confused with curve on GL port but -- it is 51N --- the barrel thickness and Shell DIscharge port tells the story ----



Zarvan said:


> Okay now I can understand why Army Chief inaugurated plant of 7.62 x 39 MM ammo. So we are testing two FN SCAR. I think Army has already made their mind about FN SCAR


even if such a weapon exists - it would be a mistake to go ahead with Piston driven 39 ---- AK was built around this platform and Soliders would be much familiar with handling the weapon ---- Muscle memory, mag integration etc ---- with SCAR & other weapons its training from scratch

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## Path-Finder

balixd said:


> no --- both are same SCAR H - 51N --- you are confused with curve on GL port but -- it is 51N --- the barrel thickness and Shell DIscharge port tells the story ----


Ok I was purely going on assumption as SCAR H can be converted to fire 39 as well, plus the curve as well.

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## Amaa'n

Tipu7 said:


> Reason for that................?
> 
> (it was rejected by Indians. Its a failed weapon: Indian logic)


it comes with two options - 7.62 39 & 556 , same as AK series having advantage over SCAR, if we were to move away from 51N round --- we maintain a modular design ----something common in both Bren & AK is Rotating bolt


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## Zarvan

balixd said:


> it comes with two options - 7.62 39 & 556 , same as AK series having advantage over SCAR, if we were to move away from 51N round --- we maintain a modular design ----something common in both Bren & AK is Rotating bolt


I think trials should be in last stages. Still personally I think FN SCAR and Berreta ARX 200 and CZ 805 BREN A2 are the strongest candidates. As for caliber I think we would stick to .51 for Armed Forces but .39 can be for Police or may be Para Military Forces.


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## Zarvan

I am confused now is Berreta ARX-200 in the trials or not and what about SIG-716 ?



Dil Pakistan said:


> @balixd @DESERT FIGHTER @Zarvan @Horus




On a side note, the guy behind COAS is (I think) is Lt. Gen. Z. M. Hayat. This is the first time I have seen his picture.

Looks like a copy of General Shareef [/QUOTE]
He is younger brother Omar Hayat not Zubair Hayat


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## Kompromat

An MG was also presented, couldn't ID it from the footage though.

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## Sulman Badshah

Horus said:


> An MG was also presented, couldn't ID it from the footage though.


MG in which pic ?

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## Kompromat

Video



Sulman Badshah said:


> MG in which pic ?

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## Sulman Badshah

Horus said:


> Video


Thanks .. I will check the video again ..


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## Zarvan

Sulman Badshah said:


> *2nd last bigger rifle with bipod looks like SIG 716 *
> 
> View attachment 299011
> 
> 
> Here is clear picture of SIG716 (but with bigger scope)
> View attachment 299012


Which 2nd last ? You mean if we start from that beard Guy or if we start counting from where Army Chief is standing ?



balixd said:


> now that ISPR has come forward with details and pics, then who the heck i am to sit on these clear pics --- @DESERT FIGHTER @Bratva @Quwa -----
> View attachment 299031
> View attachment 299032
> View attachment 299033
> View attachment 299034
> View attachment 299035
> 
> 
> @Horus @WAJsal @Jango - thread should be merged with other one ----
> 
> 
> nope not Sauer --- its AK family -- look at the front sight & Gas Piston on the top, right behind the Front sight
> 
> Edit: ops my bad, you were on third gun, yeah looks to be Sig.....the fifth weapon ---- i may have overlooked the weapon while transferring photos from the friend's phone --- u can understand the excitement, when i was looking at all these beauties -- right here in Pakistan ----
> 
> 
> no its only the start --- Weapons were only received in Jan 2016 ---- and I received these photos in Feb ----so trails are still happening ---- i think HK, MPT did not responded to our request ---


@balixd Are both Guns I mean the one with Gernade Launcher and the last one are both FN SCAR ? @Tipu7 @Sulman Badshah


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## Irfan Baloch

That Guy said:


> @Quwa @Horus @Icarus @Irfan Baloch @balixd
> 
> With this news out, is it safe to say that the competition is nearing it's end, or at least close to the end? I only ask, because it remained an open secret up until now, and the rifles have apparently already been heavily tested.
> 
> Also, can we merge this thread with Pakistan's Future Service Rifle.?


maybe no need to merge, they can both exist separately one as the generic original thread and this one as the new development

the gun we will choose wont be for looks but for reliability, less complication easy of field repair and maintenance and of course the cost effectiveness (an apparently more expensive platform may also qualify for that)

my gripe against western designs is over engineering, complicated design and handling. if they can borrow some features from Russians which is rigidity and simplicity then it will be great combination

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## Amaa'n

Zarvan said:


> Which 2nd last ? You mean if we start from that beard Guy or if we start counting from where Army Chief is standing ?
> 
> 
> @balixd Are both Guns I mean the one with Gernade Launcher and the last one are both FN SCAR ? @Tipu7 @Sulman Badshah


Yes, can't you see???

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## RAMPAGE

@balixd

So the CZ is a 5.56?


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## proka89

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> The third weapon is most likely the Serbian M-21 (Serbian guy standing behind the display).



Version of Zastava M77 in 7.62x51

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## Tipu7

Yr.........
All these guns are 7.62...........
@balixd what about LMG replacement?


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## Path-Finder

I know there is alot of fanboy for FN SCAR but looking at things realistically Zastava is a exceptionally strong candidate.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

balixd said:


> Yes, can't you see???



So far been able to fully identify the following;

Scar
AK
Serbian M
CZ Bren
ARX


And in one pic COAS appears to be holding a Beryl ...

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## Reichsmarschall

Horus said:


> SCAR will win.


Sir why not this one???





Or this one
Mk16 MOD 0







Horus said:


> SCAR will win.


Sir why not this one???




Or this one
A SCAR-L (bottom) with an M203 grenade launcher


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## saumyasupratik

Hello all, the Serbian rifle in question isn't the M21 it's actually the M77 with M21s furniture and a shorter barrel.

Here's the Serbian rifle.





Here's an image of the M77 from Zastavas own site, notice the position of the front sight post which is similar the AK and the similarity in the design of the magazine.




Here's an image of the M21.

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## Irfan Baloch

C803-AKG said:


> Sir why not this one???
> View attachment 299116
> 
> Or this one
> Mk16 MOD 0
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sir why not this one???
> View attachment 299116
> 
> Or this one
> A SCAR-L (bottom) with an M203 grenade launcher


posting gizmo gun gadgets is ok for the sake of eye candy pictures and feel good factor 
but army doesn't think that way.
we need a gun for our extreme climates in Pakistan from 40+ C to I don't know -40 c and below

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## saumyasupratik

Horus said:


> An MG was also presented, couldn't ID it from the footage though.


The one at 0:40 mark? This?


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## Sulman Badshah

PSR 90 DMR Rifle

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## Sage

Wolfhound said:


> The Fn scar is as of right now the best in the market, it can be considered even better than Hk416. The main advantages it has are, is its* low recoil* because of its unique muzzle break(Even its 7.62 rounds recoil comes close to even that of a 5.56 round of an average rifle), *Ease of assembly and reassembly* without the use of any tools(Hk416 needs 3 tools for all adjustments), It has a *chrome lined barrel* which increases barrel life and reliability{Hk416 doesnt have a chrome lined barrel as Hk believes that it reduces accuracy(total bullshit) and says that the opportunity cost is justified},* Ambidextrous charging handle*(The Hk416 retains the T shape M16 charging handle which has its own flaws), The Fn scar is* lighter *than most rifles with a standard weight of 3.29 kgs(The standard Hk416 weighs at 3.560kg), _And lastly_ _the most important part the Fn scar is *more *_*reliable* than any other operational rifle, this is what it scored in the now canceled individual carbine competition "The XM8(Not operational) scored the best, with only 127 stoppages in 60,000 total rounds, the *FN SCAR Light had 226 stoppages,* while the *HK416 had 233 stoppages*. The M4 carbine scored "significantly worse" than the rest of the field with 882 stoppages".


What was the stoppage score of AK variant ...or there was no AK at all in the competition ?


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

@balixd I'm still very much confused about the weapons in trial..

Scar H
Bren 
ARX?
M77
AK

... 

The AK type rifle the COAS is holding in the last pic .. Looks like a Beryl.. Notice the long and thick barrel?

Details | COAS briefed on Future Standard rifle trails

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## Path-Finder

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> @balixd I'm still very much confused about the weapons in trial..
> 
> Scar H
> Bren
> ARX?
> M77
> AK
> 
> ...
> 
> The AK type rifle the COAS is holding in the last pic .. Looks like a Beryl.. Notice the long and thick barrel?
> 
> Details | COAS briefed on Future Standard rifle trails


there is a video to this and in it a Italian guy is showing Beretta ARX to COAS





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1099563496740922

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## Khafee

Horus said:


> SCAR will win.


I sincerely hope so.

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## Wolfhound

Sage said:


> What was the stoppage score of AK variant ...or there was no AK at all in the competition ?


The Ak did not participate in the competition as the information that i quoted was from the now canceled _*American *_Individual carbine competition (Individual Carbine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia).

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## khanasifm

Pakistan Seeks New Service Rifle, Upgraded Ordnance Facilities

1. ARX 100
2. Ceska Zbrojovka unveils improved CZ 806 assault rifle | IHS Jane's 360
3. CZ-USA 805 Bren A2 - CZ-USA
4. FN - The World's Most Battle-Proven Firearms™ :: FN SCAR<sup>®</sup> Series
5. Kalashnikov USA's AK-103
6. Zastava M21 Assault Rifle | Military-Today.com



Chinese ???

*But a main factor will be a deal to manufacture it at POF. There is no possibility of a contract involving total import. The trials should be over by mid-year, and no doubt there will be concurrent negotiations about production.”*

*Much will depend on negotiations with suppliers, and it is likely that the Chinese will be the most prepared to offer attractive deals,” he said.*


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## DESERT FIGHTER

ghazi52 said:


> .................
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chief of Army Staff General Raheel Sharif inspects a weapon during his visit to the Pakistan Ordnance Factory in Wah on March 15, 2016. PHOTO: ISPR
> ...



@That Guy That's definetly not a Bren!


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## Path-Finder

khanasifm said:


> Pakistan Seeks New Service Rifle, Upgraded Ordnance Facilities
> 
> 1. ARX 100
> 2. Ceska Zbrojovka unveils improved CZ 806 assault rifle | IHS Jane's 360
> 3. CZ-USA 805 Bren A2 - CZ-USA
> 4. FN - The World's Most Battle-Proven Firearms™ :: FN SCAR<sup>®</sup> Series
> 5. Kalashnikov USA's AK-103
> 6. Zastava M21 Assault Rifle | Military-Today.com
> 
> 
> 
> Chinese ???
> 
> *But a main factor will be a deal to manufacture it at POF. There is no possibility of a contract involving total import. The trials should be over by mid-year, and no doubt there will be concurrent negotiations about production.”*
> 
> *Much will depend on negotiations with suppliers, and it is likely that the Chinese will be the most prepared to offer attractive deals,” he said.*



ARX 200 not 100!! from article you posted.

"From the images available, it appears Pakistan is trialing the following rifles: Beretta ARX-200, CZ-806 BREN 2, FN SCAR, Kalashnikov AK-103, and Zastava M21."


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## Amaa'n

@Horus @Zarvan @Tipu7 @DESERT FIGHTER @RAMPAGE ----- if the word is to be believed then Report has been finalized and forwarded to the relevant authority------ fingers crossed ----- (although one name was shared which is on the shortlist, and it was not SCAR)

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## DESERT FIGHTER

balixd said:


> @Horus @Zarvan @Tipu7 @DESERT FIGHTER @RAMPAGE ----- if the word is to be believed then Report has been finalized and forwarded to the relevant authority------ fingers crossed ----- (although one name was shared which is on the shortlist, and it was not SCAR)



Pra hathi nikal Gaya .. Pouch phas gai ... Ab name Nahi tou hint hi dei do!

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## Amaa'n

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Pra hathi nikal Gaya .. Pouch phas gai ... Ab name Nahi tou hint hi dei do!


baadh mein galat hone ka marjan bhi tou rakhna hai --- face saving if am wrong  .....
lol ---- as I had said yesterday, i had a hunch, Chief had set his eyes on the prize ----

CZ is on the shortlist ---- no other name was given --- no confirmation

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## Zarvan

balixd said:


> @Horus @Zarvan @Tipu7 @DESERT FIGHTER @RAMPAGE ----- if the word is to be believed then Report has been finalized and forwarded to the relevant authority------ fingers crossed ----- (although one name was shared which is on the shortlist, and it was not SCAR)


You mean FN SCAR is out of the race ? Or you don't know weather FN SCAR is in the list or not ?


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## Amaa'n

don't forget, these are Winter Trails --- even as said in OP


Zarvan said:


> You mean FN SCAR is out of the race ? Or you don't know weather FN SCAR is in the list or not ?


haad hai yar --- i wrote ' Shortlist' that means it is with others on the list --- and idk which other is their--- no other name was given

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## That Guy

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> @That Guy That's definetly not a Bren!


That's definitely a Bren

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## Zarvan

balixd said:


> don't forget, these are Winter Trails --- even as said in OP
> 
> haad hai yar --- i wrote ' Shortlist' that means it is with others on the list --- and idk which other is their--- no other name was given


Thanks !!! I was just about to have a heart attack !!! By the way Sir WZ-10 is in Arsenal now it is participating in the parade

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## Zarvan

That Guy said:


> That's definitely a Bren
> jpg


That is not BREN sir that is Berretta ARX-200 Sir @DESERT FIGHTER


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## Water Car Engineer

That Guy said:


> That's definitely a Bren




I dont think Bren CZ has a ak mag..

arx does -






Dont think it's a arx, either.


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## That Guy

Zarvan said:


> That is not BREN sir that is Berretta ARX-200 Sir @DESERT FIGHTER


The ARX seems to be clearly in the background. I'm pretty sure that's a Bren. Look to the bottom right of the picture, right in front of the SCAR.



Water Car Engineer said:


> I dont think Bren CZ has a ak mag..
> 
> arx does -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dont think it's a arx, either.


The gun doesn't have an AK mag. look again...


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## Zarvan

That Guy said:


> The ARX seems to be clearly in the background. I'm pretty sure that's a Bren. Look to the bottom right of the picture, right in front of the SCAR.
> 
> 
> The gun doesn't have an AK mag. look again...


No Bren is the Gun which barrel is pointing towards Army Chief


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## That Guy

Zarvan said:


> No Bren is the Gun which barrel is pointing towards Army Chief


The gun pointing towards the COAS looks nothing like the Bren. For one thing, it looks like it has an AK sight, which means that it's either the AK, or the M21.
@balixd Can you identify which gun the COAS is holding?


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## Amaa'n

That Guy said:


> The gun pointing towards the COAS looks nothing like the Bren. For one thing, it looks like it has an AK sight, which means that it's either the AK, or the M21.
> @balixd Can you identify which gun the COAS is holding?


CZ Bren

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## Zarvan

balixd said:


> CZ Bren


Yes I told him I was right by the way Sir a friend claims all the Guns under trials were produced at POF WAH. I mean all the Guns participating are produced in POF WAH and than trials were started. Can you confirm this ?


----------



## Burhan Wani

It think SCAR will be best option to replace our Battle rifle G3. 
We have to replace our Type56 and type 81 SMGs with Ak103 sega.
@OverLoad @DESERT FIGHTER @Zibago am i right?


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## Maarkhoor

Jonah Arthur said:


> It think SCAR will be best option to replace our Battle rifle G3.
> We have to replace our Type56 and type 81 SMGs with Ak103 sega.
> @OverLoad @DESERT FIGHTER @Zibago am i right?


Whatever rifle we select to replace should be made in Pakistan (licensed production), SCAR is no more useful then AK version then why we have to waste huge resources.


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## Zarvan

OverLoad said:


> Whatever rifle we select to replace should be made in Pakistan (licensed production), SCAR is no more useful then AK version then why we have to waste huge resources.


SCAR is way better from accuracy to firepower to recoil and the different models it offer from DMR version to self defense version to other versions.

*Pakistan Seeks New Service Rifle, Upgraded Ordnance Facilities*








ISLAMABAD — Trials are underway to select a new firearm for the Pakistan army to replace its G3 battle rifle and Chinese Type-56 AK-47 clones, which will also include upgrading facilities at the state-owned Pakistan Ordnance Factories (POF).

Modernization efforts of the POF facilities are aimed at enhancing export success in what is a core export defense industry for Pakistan.

The news came during a Tuesday visit to a POF facility at Wah by head of the Army Gen. Raheel Sharif, who according to a press release by the military’s Inter Services Public Relations (ISPR) media branch, was making his second trip “to see the progress of envisaged modernization and capacity enhancement of POF.”

During the visit, Sharif inaugurated a new ammunition production plant, which is part of an expansion plan. POF chief Lt. Gen. Omar Mahmood Hayat briefed Sharif, who thanked the factory's support in providing arms and ammunition for the ongoing counter terrorist operations.

Sharif also “emphasized the need for further technological upgradation to optimize the output” to ensure self reliance in arms-and-ammunition needs for the civilian and military security services.

He pushed for more efforts to secure new markets for POF products.

However, the presence of a series of foreign rifles at POF seen during the Sharif's visit drew attention to a little publicized competition to find a new standard rifle for the military.

*From the images available, it appears Pakistan is trialing the following rifles: Beretta ARX-200, CZ-806 BREN 2, FN SCAR, Kalashnikov AK-103, and Zastava M21.*

There has been a longstanding requirement for a new service rifle and approximately 10 years ago the army expressed requirement for a 5.56 caliber rifle.

POF attempted to meet the requirement with its PK-8, which was a development of the German HK33K. However, the cost of having to replace so many rifles appears to have killed the project at that time.

Instead, the military acquired large numbers of the Chinese Type-56 clone of the AK-47. It also modified the G3 to produce the G3S, which was a carbine/para variant of the battle rifle, and the G3M, which has a series of rail attachments to fit a range of grips, sighting devices, and under-barrel grenade launcher.

*When asked about the new rifles, a spokesperson for the Ministry of Defence Production confirmed trials were underway for a new service rifle.

“Pakistan army wants to induct new rifles. Trials are going on for the rifles. But nothing has been finalized yet.”

The spokesperson also highlighted that the new ammunition plant was aimed at enhancing existing production capacity, and that “Up-gradation remaining within [POF’s] core area may be carried [out] depending upon technological development in future.”*

POF was also open to entering into joint ventures with foreign companies.

Brian Cloughley, former Australian defense attaché to Islamabad, said there is nothing inherently wrong with the current weapons being used, but that newer ones are more effective.

*“The G-3 and AK-47/Type 56 rifles have been popular in the army, but later weapons are certainly more effective, especially in the weight-to-kill power-ratio,” he said. “The AK-103, for example, is a very long way ahead of the AK-47 and has the attraction of using 7.62x39mm ammunition which has excellent stopping power and is readily available.”*

Therefore, Cloughley said, Pakistan’s military “wants to move with the times and is most serious about procuring a new rifle, which is why the trials of five systems are now taking place.”

A deal will likely eventually lead to the military procuring some 500,000 rifles or more, therefore it is a lucrative deal, but one which Pakistan will insist involves licensed production, and the results of this could be known later in the year.

“In the selection process, the most important aspect is plain effectiveness in battle," said Cloughley. "But a main factor will be a deal to manufacture it at POF. There is no possibility of a contract involving total import. The trials should be over by mid-year, and no doubt there will be concurrent negotiations about production.”

Cloughley said it will undoubtedly include upgrading POF facilities, though not necessarily in conjunction with the winning design.

“POF is a success story, but some of the plant and machinery is getting old and needs replacement, which is expensive. Much will depend on negotiations with suppliers, and it is likely that the Chinese will be the most prepared to offer attractive deals,” he said.

Cloughley added: “Raheel has always placed emphasis on domestic production of arms and ammunition, and what he said during his recent visit to Wah was consistent with overall government policy.”

Though this may be achieved reasonably well however, true success will likely be measured elsewhere.

“What POF really needs is an overseas market, but that is extremely difficult to break into,” Cloughley said.

Pakistan Seeks New Service Rifle, Upgraded Ordnance Facilities

@balixd @Horus @Oscar @Sulman Badshah @Tipu7

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## Maarkhoor

Zarvan said:


> SCAR is way better from accuracy to firepower to recoil and the different models it offer from DMR version to self defense version to other versions.


I have ask u many time before kindly let me know about technical details why u prefer SCAR...like metal used in barrel and chamber and their characteristic under different temperatures and endurance + which mechanism is being used in SCAR gas operating rotating bolt or blow back rotating bolt. and why the subject (in case if u provide) mechanism is suitable to Pakistani needs. Remember we have extreme weather conditions from +45 / 50 to -20 / 23 and we can't afford multiple platforms. And kindly let us know about comparison between SCAR and existing rifles we are using and specifically highlighted the edge of SCAR over other rifles. *AND PLEASE REPLY BACK THIS TIME. *

Here on PDF people don't know anything and talking expert, did you ever test fire SCAR or the rifles P.A using ?

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## That Guy

Zarvan said:


> Yes I told him I was right by the way Sir a friend claims all the Guns under trials were produced at POF WAH. I mean all the Guns participating are produced in POF WAH and than trials were started. Can you confirm this ?


Told me what? You said the rifle pointing towards the COAS was the Bren, and the one he was holding was the ARX.

The rifle the COAS is holding is the Bren, and @balixd just confirmed that as well.

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## Amaa'n

Zarvan said:


> Yes I told him I was right by the way Sir a friend claims all the Guns under trials were produced at POF WAH. I mean all the Guns participating are produced in POF WAH and than trials were started. Can you confirm this ?


yes, hes right - we produced all the guns in Pof Wah - in less then a month and then we tested them to our standard in a month time ---- it was not hard to make First clones of these guns at PoF --- easy peazy 

BTW --- weapons were not even tested in Wah --- they were hundreds of Kms away from wah --- idk why they were presented to coas at Pof

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## Sulman Badshah

Zarvan said:


> A deal will likely eventually lead to the military procuring some 500,000 rifles or more, therefore it is a lucrative deal, but one which Pakistan will insist involves licensed production, and the results of this could be known later in the year.


Numbers tell me that we might opt cheaper option ...


----------



## Zarvan

balixd said:


> yes, hes right - we produced all the guns in Pof Wah - in less then a month and then we tested them to our standard in a month time ---- it was not hard to make First clones of these guns at PoF --- easy peazy
> 
> BTW --- weapons were not even tested in Wah --- they were hundreds of Kms away from wah --- idk why they were presented to coas at Pof


I know they are not tested at WAH. As for production I have doubts on it myself but friend proved to be true on many occasions just recently on induction of WZ-10.


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## Maarkhoor

Zarvan said:


> just recently on induction of WZ-10.



Where it proved WZ-10 inducted....


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## Zarvan

Sulman Badshah said:


> Numbers tell me that we might opt cheaper option ...


I am sure money is not the issue. Before even thinking of replacing the Gun we already thought everything and arranged the money the only question is which Gun would pass the trials.


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## Kompromat

Mass production reduces cost. Pakistan Army is not going to put a cheap firearm in the hands of a Pakistani solider. 



Sulman Badshah said:


> Numbers tell me that we might opt cheaper option ...

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## Kompromat

Its CZ-806 Bren-2 not to be confused with Bren-A2.



That Guy said:


> The gun pointing towards the COAS looks nothing like the Bren. For one thing, it looks like it has an AK sight, which means that it's either the AK, or the M21.
> @balixd Can you identify which gun the COAS is holding?

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## Sulman Badshah

Horus said:


> Mass production reduces cost. Pakistan Army is not going to put a cheap firearm in the hands of a Pakistani solider.


yes agree that mass production at home will reduce the cost significantly .. lets hope for best

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## The Eagle

*Pakistan Seeks New Service Rifle, Upgraded Ordnance Facilities*

Usman Ansari, Defense News6:53 p.m. EDT March 16, 2016






ISLAMABAD — Trials are underway to select a new firearm for the Pakistan army to replace its G3 battle rifle and Chinese Type-56 AK-47 clones, *which will also include upgrading facilities at the state-owned Pakistan Ordnance Factories (POF).*

Modernization efforts of the POF facilities are aimed at enhancing export success in what is a core export defense industry for Pakistan.

The news came during a Tuesday visit to a POF facility at Wah by head of the Army Gen. Raheel Sharif, who according to a press release by the military’s Inter Services Public Relations (ISPR) media branch, was making his second trip “to see the progress of envisaged modernization and capacity enhancement of POF.”

During the visit, Sharif inaugurated a new ammunition production plant, which is part of an expansion plan. POF chief Lt. Gen. Omar Mahmood Hayat briefed Sharif, who thanked the factory's support in providing arms and ammunition for the ongoing counter terrorist operations.

*Sharif also “emphasized the need for further technological upgradation to optimize the output” to ensure self reliance in arms-and-ammunition needs for the civilian and military security services.*

*He pushed for more efforts to secure new markets for POF products.*

However, the presence of a series of foreign rifles at POF seen during the Sharif's visit drew attention to a little publicized competition to find a new standard rifle for the military.

From the images available, it appears Pakistan is trialing the *following rifles: Beretta ARX-200, CZ-806 BREN 2, FN SCAR, Kalashnikov AK-103, and Zastava M21*.

There has been a longstanding requirement for a new service rifle and approximately 10 years ago the army expressed requirement for a 5.56 caliber rifle.

POF attempted to meet the requirement with its PK-8, which was a development of the German HK33K. However, the cost of having to replace so many rifles appears to have killed the project at that time.

Instead, the military acquired large numbers of the Chinese Type-56 clone of the AK-47. It also modified the G3 to produce the G3S, which was a carbine/para variant of the battle rifle, and the G3M, which has a series of rail attachments to fit a range of grips, sighting devices, and under-barrel grenade launcher.

When asked about the new rifles, a spokesperson for the Ministry of Defence Production confirmed trials were underway for a new service rifle.

“Pakistan army wants to induct new rifles. Trials are going on for the rifles. But nothing has been finalized yet.”

The spokesperson also highlighted that the new ammunition plant was aimed at enhancing existing production capacity, and that “Up-gradation remaining within [POF’s] core area may be carried [out] depending upon technological development in future.”

POF was also open to entering into joint ventures with foreign companies.

Brian Cloughley, former Australian defense attaché to Islamabad, said there is nothing inherently wrong with the current weapons being used, but that newer ones are more effective.

“The G-3 and AK-47/Type 56 rifles have been popular in the army, but later weapons are certainly more effective, especially in the weight-to-kill power-ratio,” he said. “The AK-103, for example, is a very long way ahead of the AK-47 and has the attraction of using 7.62x39mm ammunition which has excellent stopping power and is readily available.”

Therefore, Cloughley said, Pakistan’s military “wants to move with the times and is most serious about procuring a new rifle, which is why the trials of five systems are now taking place.”

A deal will likely eventually lead to the military procuring some 500,000 rifles or more, therefore it is a lucrative deal, but one which* Pakistan will insist involves licensed production,* and the results of this could be known later in the year.

“In the selection process, the most important aspect is plain effectiveness in battle," said Cloughley. "But a main factor will be a deal to manufacture it at POF. There is no possibility of a contract involving total import. *The trials should be over by mid-year, and no doubt there will be concurrent negotiations about production.”*

Cloughley said it will undoubtedly include upgrading POF facilities, though not necessarily in conjunction with the winning design.

*“POF is a success story, but some of the plant and machinery is getting old and needs replacement, which is expensive. Much will depend on negotiations with suppliers, and it is likely that the Chinese will be the most prepared to offer attractive deals,” he said.*

Cloughley added: “Raheel has always placed emphasis on domestic production of arms and ammunition, and what he said during his recent visit to Wah was consistent with overall government policy.”

Though this may be achieved reasonably well however, true success will likely be measured elsewhere.

“What POF really needs is an overseas market, but that is extremely difficult to break into,” Cloughley said

Pakistan Seeks New Service Rifle, Upgraded Ordnance Facilities

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## Vapnope

balixd said:


> yes, hes right - we produced all the guns in Pof Wah - in less then a month and then we tested them to our standard in a month time ---- it was not hard to make First clones of these guns at PoF --- easy peazy


So we will not actually procure the rifles from vendor but actually will produce clones under the license? Why not get the production facility for original?



balixd said:


> yes, hes right - we produced all the guns in Pof Wah - in less then a month and then we tested them to our standard in a month time ---- it was not hard to make First clones of these guns at PoF --- easy peazy


So we will not actually procure the rifles from vendor but actually will produce clones under the license? Why not get the production facility for original?


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## That Guy

Vapnope said:


> So we will not actually procure the rifles from vendor but actually will produce clones under the license? Why not get the production facility for original?


License production doesn't mean clones, it means license production. When you get a license to produce a certain system, you get the rights to use the machinery that the company uses to make the systems in question.

Not only that, because the rifles would be cheaper to produce in Pakistan, if the company gets smaller orders from other places, they can ask Pakistan to produce the rifles at a fraction of the cost. This way, the company will be even more competitive. A similar thing happened with the HK-G3, where manufacturing costs for the gun plummeted, simply because HK started licencing their guns to places where labor and material was cheaper, such as Pakistan.

Basically, whichever company wins, they'll be giving Pakistan the exact machinery needed to build the rifles under licence.

Again, that's not the same thing as building clones. It's not a Norinco CQ type of situation.

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## Vapnope

That Guy said:


> License production doesn't mean clones, it means license production. When you get a license to produce a certain system, you get the rights to use the machinery that the company uses to make the systems in question.
> 
> Basically, whichever company wins, they'll be giving Pakistan the exact machinery needed to build the rifles under licence.
> 
> Again, that's not the same thing as building clones. It's not a Norinco CQ type of situation.


Thanks for clarification. I wondered how they are going after clones.

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## Kompromat

After much anticipation now we know the contenders for the next generation replacement of Pakistan's current standard issue service rifle the hk-G3. This thread shall serve as a debate platform from now on. 

Here are the contenders, do vote for your favorite one above. 

1: FN-SCAR-H 







2: Beretta ARX-200






3: CZ-806 Bren-2





4: Kalashnikov AK-103






5: Zastava M21

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## CHD

Can someone also provide the production cost of these contenders?


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## Tipu7

Horus said:


> After much anticipation now we know the contenders for the next generation replacement of Pakistan's current standard issue service rifle the hk-G3. This thread shall serve as a debate platform from now on.
> 
> Here are the contenders, do vote for your favorite one above.
> 
> 1: FN-SCAR-H
> 
> View attachment 299200
> 
> 
> 2: Beretta ARX-200
> 
> 
> View attachment 299201
> 
> 3: CZ-806 Bren-2
> View attachment 299202
> 
> 
> 4: Kalashnikov AK-103
> 
> View attachment 299205
> 
> 
> 5: Zastava M21
> 
> View attachment 299206


Are we going to select new Rifle based upon number of votes on PDF?

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## Maarkhoor

My vote for 

4: Kalashnikov AK-103





More logical, battle proven, price and above all most of the P.A soldiers familiar with it.

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## Kompromat

Continue Here| Pakistan's Service Rifle Replacement Competition 2016.


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## Amaa'n

as i said to somebody not too long ago --- I will sleep better in the arms of "Mother Russia" -- so anything coming out of Ru or former soviet state is a must to be picked up
changing a service rifle is not easy ---- you have to think again and again and again --- ---- test the weapon --- training the troops, muscle memory, stance, weapon handling ---- checking range, effectiveness ----- just because we love SCAR does not mean it should be selected --- I see scale being heavier on AK 103 & CZ Bren side because of 7.62 x 39 & 5.56 variants ----

considering both variants can be used be in Guerilla warfare or CI / CT Ops it should be preferred over 51N calibre --- our focus is shifting towards Protection & Security maintenance now --- SSU raised by Pakistan ARmy for CPEC, cannot be handed SCAR / 51N as it carries more weight as compared to AK 103 & CZ Bren with 7.62 x 39 
Also don't forget each troop can have 90 rounds (3 mags) of AK / CZ as compared to 60 rounds of 51N with more weight

your troops have already shot down thousands of rounds down range training on that Type 56, so much isn't change with AK 103 -----

7.62 x 51 ammunition stocks at Wah can be sold out to Foreign countries or use them in LMG in house ---- issue resolved with us having huge stocks of 51N rounds ---- since weapons are to be phased out over a period of time --- the stocks are going to run out eventually ----- modify the G3M to make it DMR on squad level --- which btw is already being down with Azb 




Horus said:


> After much anticipation now we know the contenders for the next generation replacement of Pakistan's current standard issue service rifle the hk-G3. This thread shall serve as a debate platform from now on.
> 
> Here are the contenders, do vote for your favorite one above.
> 
> 1: FN-SCAR-H
> 
> View attachment 299200
> 
> 
> 2: Beretta ARX-200
> 
> 
> View attachment 299201
> 
> 3: CZ-806 Bren-2
> View attachment 299202
> 
> 
> 4: Kalashnikov AK-103
> 
> View attachment 299205
> 
> 
> 5: Zastava M21
> 
> View attachment 299206

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## New World

where is HK?


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## Zarvan

Horus said:


> After much anticipation now we know the contenders for the next generation replacement of Pakistan's current standard issue service rifle the hk-G3. This thread shall serve as a debate platform from now on.
> 
> Here are the contenders, do vote for your favorite one above.
> 
> 1: FN-SCAR-H
> 
> View attachment 299200
> 
> 
> 2: Beretta ARX-200
> 
> 
> View attachment 299201
> 
> 3: CZ-806 Bren-2
> View attachment 299202
> 
> 
> 4: Kalashnikov AK-103
> 
> View attachment 299205
> 
> 
> 5: Zastava M21
> 
> View attachment 299206


It should be FN SCAR for number of reasons. First it's brand new system with much fire power accuracy and less recoil and it also offer various versions. Like it has DMR version and Self Defence version and also 5.56 version which can be used by our Special Forces. As for AK-13 sorry but it's already 15 years old and even Russia didn't used it as its main Battle Rifle instead they are developing AK-12 and other versions. For Serbia's M21 I have serious doubts it would survive our extreme temperatures.

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## Amaa'n

Zarvan said:


> It should be FN SCAR for number of reasons. First it's brand new system with much fire power accuracy and less recoil and it also offer various versions. Like it has DMR version and Self Defence version and also 5.56 version which can be used by our Special Forces. As for AK-13 sorry but it's already 15 years old and even Russia didn't used it as its main Battle Rifle instead they are developing AK-12 and other versions. For Serbia's M21 I have serious doubts it would survive our extreme temperatures.


new means - its not well versed and battle proven --- AK design is battle proven and time tested ---- been through hell and back ---- how many of your SF are using 5.56 calibre, please remind me??
ZAB has tested the design and calibre and its effectiveness in the field --- our LCB are even equipped with AK ---- so switch will be easy -----

even AK comes with Compact version of 5.56 ---- so whats special with SCAR?? --- as i said its 90 rounds of 39 vs 60 rounds of 51N --- don't compare 5.56 here because that is for CQB --- losses the effectiveness at longer ranger - although much linear trajectory as compared to 39

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## XILLAX

missing this one on the list.

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## Amaa'n

XILLAX said:


> missing this one on the list.


MPT is not in the Trails --- they did not respond to our request

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## The Eagle

AK is favourite due to use to with it so also experienced it since long however, FN Scar-H could be next but seems like less consideration for any new weapon system which will indeed cost more time to understand and master the rifle.

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## thepakistani

endurance in high sub zero temp, desert-underwater-mud, range, speed, user friendly, licence to build locally and the cost................find the best option.

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## Psychic

A question @Icarus @balixd 

What is the smallest independent unit in the PA? Section or fireteam? 
Can you tell something about the weapon distribution at section/fireteam level (no of LMGs, RPGs, DMR).


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## RAMPAGE

balixd said:


> @Horus @Zarvan @Tipu7 @DESERT FIGHTER @RAMPAGE ----- if the word is to be believed then Report has been finalized and forwarded to the relevant authority------ fingers crossed ----- (although one name was shared which is on the shortlist, and it was not SCAR)


May the best rifle win.


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## rockstarIN

Whats the bullet do you prefer, 5.56 or the old 51N or multi barrel?


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## Burhan Wani

Horus said:


> Mass production reduces cost. Pakistan Army is not going to put a cheap firearm in the hands of a Pakistani solider.


Can we maintain the standards of original SCAR and modify it time to time. I think quality control is a big question.



OverLoad said:


> Whatever rifle we select to replace should be made in Pakistan (licensed production), SCAR is no more useful then AK version then why we have to waste huge resources.


What will be your choice?

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## Maarkhoor

Jonah Arthur said:


> Can we maintain the standards of original SCAR and modify it time to time. I think quality control is a big question.
> 
> 
> What will be your choice?


I already posted a logical choice AK 103, we have expertise to manufacture AKs soldiers are also familiar with AKs and most importantly a war proven jam proof the gangsta weapon.

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## Quwa

balixd said:


> as i said to somebody not too long ago --- I will sleep better in the arms of "Mother Russia" -- so anything coming out of Ru or former soviet state is a must to be picked up
> changing a service rifle is not easy ---- you have to think again and again and again --- ---- test the weapon --- training the troops, muscle memory, stance, weapon handling ---- checking range, effectiveness ----- just because we love SCAR does not mean it should be selected --- I see scale being heavier on AK 103 & CZ Bren side because of 7.62 x 39 & 5.56 variants ----
> 
> considering both variants can be used be in Guerilla warfare or CI / CT Ops it should be preferred over 51N calibre --- our focus is shifting towards Protection & Security maintenance now --- SSU raised by Pakistan ARmy for CPEC, cannot be handed SCAR / 51N as it carries more weight as compared to AK 103 & CZ Bren with 7.62 x 39
> Also don't forget each troop can have 90 rounds (3 mags) of AK / CZ as compared to 60 rounds of 51N with more weight
> 
> your troops have already shot down thousands of rounds down range training on that Type 56, so much isn't change with AK 103 -----
> 
> 7.62 x 51 ammunition stocks at Wah can be sold out to Foreign countries or use them in LMG in house ---- issue resolved with us having huge stocks of 51N rounds ---- since weapons are to be phased out over a period of time --- the stocks are going to run out eventually ----- modify the G3M to make it DMR on squad level --- which btw is already being down with Azb


FN SCAR is a modular design which can be chambered for 7.62x39mm. In fact, it is already happening.

FNH USA Shows Off New 7.62x39 Mk. 17 SCAR Prototype - The Firearm Blog

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## DESERT FIGHTER

balixd said:


> new means - its not well versed and battle proven --- AK design is battle proven and time tested ---- been through hell and back ---- how many of your SF are using 5.56 calibre, please remind me??
> ZAB has tested the design and calibre and its effectiveness in the field --- our LCB are even equipped with AK ---- so switch will be easy -----
> 
> even AK comes with Compact version of 5.56 ---- so whats special with SCAR?? --- as i said its 90 rounds of 39 vs 60 rounds of 51N --- don't compare 5.56 here because that is for CQB --- losses the effectiveness at longer ranger - although much linear trajectory as compared to 39


SSG has said good bye to modified 56s... Which have been supplied to the LCB guys as stop gap measure weapons,

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## Burhan Wani

OverLoad said:


> I already posted a logical choice AK 103, we have expertise to manufacture AKs soldiers are also familiar with AKs and most importantly a war proven jam proof the gangsta weapon.


I already recommended ak103 to replace our Chinese AK clones.

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## RAMPAGE

@Icarus 

Yaar ye tou CZ 5.56 consider kar rahain hain? Comments?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

balixd said:


> as i said to somebody not too long ago --- I will sleep better in the arms of "Mother Russia" -- so anything coming out of Ru or former soviet state is a must to be picked up
> changing a service rifle is not easy ---- you have to think again and again and again --- ---- test the weapon --- training the troops, muscle memory, stance, weapon handling ---- checking range, effectiveness ----- just because we love SCAR does not mean it should be selected --- I see scale being heavier on AK 103 & CZ Bren side because of 7.62 x 39 & 5.56 variants ----
> 
> considering both variants can be used be in Guerilla warfare or CI / CT Ops it should be preferred over 51N calibre --- our focus is shifting towards Protection & Security maintenance now --- SSU raised by Pakistan ARmy for CPEC, cannot be handed SCAR / 51N as it carries more weight as compared to AK 103 & CZ Bren with 7.62 x 39
> Also don't forget each troop can have 90 rounds (3 mags) of AK / CZ as compared to 60 rounds of 51N with more weight
> 
> your troops have already shot down thousands of rounds down range training on that Type 56, so much isn't change with AK 103 -----
> 
> 7.62 x 51 ammunition stocks at Wah can be sold out to Foreign countries or use them in LMG in house ---- issue resolved with us having huge stocks of 51N rounds ---- since weapons are to be phased out over a period of time --- the stocks are going to run out eventually ----- modify the G3M to make it DMR on squad level --- which btw is already being down with Azb



You didn't answer me man.... The AK type rifle COAS is holding in the last pic (OP) with long,thick barrel and M series type muzzle looks like a Beryl.. ? Which rifle is that?


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## Icarus

RAMPAGE said:


> @Icarus
> 
> Yaar ye tou CZ 5.56 consider kar rahain hain? Comments?



Change of caliber will be weighed against prospective benefits of adopting the platform. Don't make any conclusions just yet.

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## RAMPAGE

Icarus said:


> Change of caliber will be weighed against prospective benefits of adopting the platform. Don't make any conclusions just yet.


Yaar I am not. They've got the studies and results and I think that at this point, They're the only ones who are in the position to play favorites. 

Just want to know if you agree with what I've said above.

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## Icarus

RAMPAGE said:


> Yaar I am not. They've got the studies and results and I think that at this point, They're the only ones who are in the position to play favorites.
> 
> Just want to know if you agree with what I've said above.



CZ is a modular platform and I think that is where it's greatest market ting strength lies, if selected, it should not take a lot of effort to produce a 7.62 version, if work on one has not started already. Its common for arms manufacturers to be continuously playing with their platforms even if they never reach past the mock-up stage so you can bet there is some contingency involved. Even POF experimented with 5.56 G3 variants. 
That being said, I believe that the 7.62 will continue to be our infantry mainstay I can say this because our troops our used to it, we have plenty of stocks, it suits our way of making war and lastly, the Chief in the same video inaugurates another 7.62 production plant in POF which means we have a bright future in store for that round.

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## RAMPAGE

Icarus said:


> CZ is a modular platform and I think that is where it's greatest market ting strength lies, if selected, it should not take a lot of effort to produce a 7.62 version, if work on one has not started already. Its common for arms manufacturers to be continuously playing with their platforms even if they never reach past the mock-up stage so you can bet there is some contingency involved. Even POF experimented with 5.56 G3 variants.
> That being said, I believe that the 7.62 will continue to be our infantry mainstay I can say this because our troops our used to it, we have plenty of stocks, it suits our way of making war and lastly, the Chief in the same video inaugurates another 7.62 production plant in POF which means we have a bright future in store for that round.


CZ 806 Bren is already _adapted _for 7.62. Why not send a 7.62x39 mm variant too?


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## Quwa

Icarus said:


> CZ is a modular platform and I think that is where it's greatest market ting strength lies, if selected, it should not take a lot of effort to produce a 7.62 version, if work on one has not started already. Its common for arms manufacturers to be continuously playing with their platforms even if they never reach past the mock-up stage so you can bet there is some contingency involved. Even POF experimented with 5.56 G3 variants.
> That being said, I believe that the 7.62 will continue to be our infantry mainstay I can say this because our troops our used to it, we have plenty of stocks, it suits our way of making war and lastly, the Chief in the same video inaugurates another 7.62 production plant in POF which means we have a bright future in store for that round.


SCAR is modular for different rounds (5.56mm NATO, 7.62mm NATO, 7.62x39mm) as well, but the CZ's strength in POF's case (in addition to being modular) is that it might be cheaper. FN is in no hurry for business, the SCAR is already quite popular, but the BREN 806 is fresh, and CZ may be more inclined to be flexible on price, commercial offsets, IP transfer, and commercial rights (allowing POF to re-sell its own CZ rifles).

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## untitled

Is the army willing to make the transition to 5.56 as a frontline calibre yet?


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## Quwa

Horus said:


> Mass production reduces cost. Pakistan Army is not going to put a cheap firearm in the hands of a Pakistani solider.


Induction will take a fair bit of time as well. For one thing, it'd be prudent to get recruits accustomed to the new rifles right from the start, and I wouldn't be surprised if that is the general approach taken.

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## Quwa

persona_non_grata said:


> Is the army willing to make the transition to 5.56 as a frontline calibre yet?


These new rifles can be chambered for different rounds, so switching to 5.56mm (or not) isn't an issue; in the end, it'll depend on the situation. If the Army selects SCAR, it can send up 7.62x51mm SCAR Hs to the troops on the eastern front, whilst using a 7.62x39mm version of the SCAR in COIN in FATA. Pakistani LEAs can use 5.56mm SCAR L. It's a similar story with the CZ-806 BREN 2.

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> It should be FN SCAR for number of reasons. First it's brand new system with much fire power accuracy and less recoil and it also offer various versions. Like it has DMR version and Self Defence version and also 5.56 version which can be used by our Special Forces. As for AK-13 sorry but it's already 15 years old and even Russia didn't used it as its main Battle Rifle instead they are developing AK-12 and other versions. For Serbia's M21 I have serious doubts it would survive our extreme temperatures.



Serbian Zastava is NOT a poor weapon infact I urge that you read this post carefully!
Details | COAS briefed on Future Standard rifle trails | Page 3


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## Amaa'n

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> You didn't answer me man.... The AK type rifle COAS is holding in the last pic (OP) with long,thick barrel and M series type muzzle looks like a Beryl.. ? Which rifle is that?


that AK man --- see the Russian dude and the pic i attached ----


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## Soldier-X

I personaly want *FN-SCAR-H *to win .. .. but my guess is, *CZ 806 bren2 *is going to win

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## Path-Finder

Horus said:


> After much anticipation now we know the contenders for the next generation replacement of Pakistan's current standard issue service rifle the hk-G3. This thread shall serve as a debate platform from now on.
> 
> Here are the contenders, do vote for your favorite one above.
> 
> 1: FN-SCAR-H
> 
> View attachment 299200
> 
> 
> 2: Beretta ARX-200
> 
> 
> View attachment 299201
> 
> 3: CZ-806 Bren-2
> View attachment 299202
> 
> 
> 4: Kalashnikov AK-103
> 
> View attachment 299205
> 
> 
> 5: Zastava M21
> 
> View attachment 299206


One correction its Zastava M77 not M21 that is being tested.


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## RAMPAGE

@balixd @DESERT FIGHTER 

CZ 806 is 7.62x39 M43 interchangeable. Are you sure that the one we saw is with a 5.56 mag?

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## Path-Finder

RAMPAGE said:


> @balixd @DESERT FIGHTER
> 
> CZ 806 is 7.62x39 M43 interchangeable. Are you sure that the one we saw is with a 5.56 mag?


it is in 7.62x39 none of the weapons are in 5.56. The magazine is curved Just like an AK mag is curved.

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## untitled

Quwa said:


> These new rifles can be chambered for different rounds, so switching to 5.56mm (or not) isn't an issue; in the end, it'll depend on the situation. If the Army selects SCAR, it can send up 7.62x51mm SCAR Hs to the troops on the eastern front, whilst using a 7.62x39mm version of the SCAR in COIN in FATA. Pakistani LEAs can use 5.56mm SCAR L. It's a similar story with the CZ-806 BREN 2.


Changing barrels does not appear to me as an elegant solution to the one rifle fires all ammo problem. I'd rather change rifles or carry two rather than change the internals of my rifle just to fire different ammo


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## RAMPAGE

Path-Finder said:


> it is in 7.62x39 none of the weapons are in 5.56. The magazine is curved Just like an AK mag is curved.


Seems like it.



balixd said:


> Bren is 556 --- A2 ---


Please clarify. That does not make any sense.


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## Path-Finder

RAMPAGE said:


> Seems like it.


This pic is the best clue there is.

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## Icarus

RAMPAGE said:


> CZ 806 Bren is already _adapted _for 7.62. Why not send a 7.62x39 mm variant too?



Its adapted for NATO systems and the 39 is not a NATO standard round. But technically, it can be easily made to accept the 39 as well. As I said, its the perks of being a modular system, it allows for a lot of flexibility in use. The same weapon can be slightly tweaked to suit the situation at hand and the demands of the battlefield.

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## Amaa'n

Horus said:


> Mass production reduces cost. Pakistan Army is not going to put a cheap firearm in the hands of a Pakistani solider.


CZ handguns are considered one of the best & toughest in the world, their CZ Shadow is favorite among competition and match shooters, CZ 75b is a renowned & time tested design, so CZ has a name in the industry too ----



OverLoad said:


> I have ask u many time before kindly let me know about technical details why u prefer SCAR...like metal used in barrel and chamber and their characteristic under different temperatures and endurance + which mechanism is being used in SCAR gas operating rotating bolt or blow back rotating bolt. and why the subject (in case if u provide) mechanism is suitable to Pakistani needs. Remember we have extreme weather conditions from +45 / 50 to -20 / 23 and we can't afford multiple platforms. And kindly let us know about comparison between SCAR and existing rifles we are using and specifically highlighted the edge of SCAR over other rifles. *AND PLEASE REPLY BACK THIS TIME. *
> 
> Here on PDF people don't know anything and talking expert, did you ever test fire SCAR or the rifles P.A using ?


AK & SCAR both are piston driven rotating bolt designs so we can through this out of the winch --- when comes to frame then for both its a mix of Alloy and Polymer, hence both empty weighs at good 3.67kg & 3.8kg ---- the actual issue iswhen you compare 16g of 7.62 x 39 with 10g of 7.62 x 51 per bullet --- but then again there is 10 additional ammo in the mag too ----
both of the weapons are in use by SF hence they must have tested the weapos for extreme weather conditions, wet fire test, dry fire tests, mud test, sand test ---- whole lot of tests are their ----

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## RAMPAGE

Icarus said:


> Its adapted for NATO systems and the 39 is not a NATO round.


Sir, It is 7.62x39 M43 interchangeable. Mentioned by multiple sources.


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## Quwa

persona_non_grata said:


> Changing barrels does not appear to me as an elegant solution to the one rifle fires all ammo problem. I'd rather change rifles or carry two rather than change the internals of my rifle just to fire different ammo


I don't think we'll see each soldier carry different chambers. Rather, different variants of a rifle will be allocated based on an area's requirements and realities. So SCAR H for the infantry facing east, SCAR L for LEAs, etc.

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## Maarkhoor

balixd said:


> AK & SCAR both are piston driven rotating bolt designs so we can through this out of the winch --- when comes to frame then for both its a mix of Alloy and Polymer, hence both empty weighs at good 3.67kg & 3.8kg ---- the actual issue iswhen you compare 16g of 7.62 x 39 with 10g of 7.62 x 51 per bullet --- but then again there is 10 additional ammo in the mag too ----
> both of the weapons are in use by SF hence they must have tested the weapos for extreme weather conditions, wet fire test, dry fire tests, mud test, sand test ---- whole lot of tests are their ----


Sir i heard reports that new weapons based on Alloy and Polymer have service life quite less then conventional weapons because during the course of time and jolts from firing polymer joints with metal alloys started to loosen up and that problem is irreversible. If that was the case then it would be very expensive choice.

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## Talwar e Pakistan

The Scar is a must; we have enough funds to procure it and its only reserved for the US Special Forces in the US - so it must be good.


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## Icarus

RAMPAGE said:


> Sir, It is 7.62x39 M43 interchangeable. Mentioned by multiple sources.



It might be, but as of yet, I have not come across any evidence that the Bren has been adapted in any capacity by any armed forces with the 7.62x39 round. Most operators are sticking to the 5.56 specifications.


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## RAMPAGE

Icarus said:


> It might be, but as of yet, I have not come across any evidence that the Bren has been adapted in any capacity by any armed forces with the 7.62x39 round. Most operators are sticking to the 5.56 specifications.


The mag, Sir. There is your evidence.







@Icarus 

With 5.56 mag:

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## Amaa'n

RAMPAGE said:


> @balixd @DESERT FIGHTER
> 
> CZ 806 is 7.62x39 M43 interchangeable. Are you sure that the one we saw is with a 5.56 mag?


100% sure --- not really , but was told its 556 --- and the pic is not really telling much either --- the curve doesn't mean its 39, even 556 extended mags can have that ----


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## Amaa'n

OverLoad said:


> Sir i heard reports that new weapons based on Alloy and Polymer have service life quite less then conventional weapons because during the course of time and jolts from firing polymer joints with metal alloys started to loosen up and that problem is irreversible. If that was the case then it would be very expensive choice.


Glock --- ring any bells???


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## RAMPAGE

balixd said:


> 100% sure --- not really , but was told its 556 --- and the pic is not really telling much either --- the curve doesn't mean its 39, even 556 extended mags can have that ----


Lekin meri jaan, Not one of the other rifles is a 556.

@balixd

I think that you were told that because they're testing it with both calibers.

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## Amaa'n

even if it is 39 --- we will get both variants --- 556 & 39


RAMPAGE said:


> The mag, Sir. There is your evidence.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Icarus
> 
> With 5.56 mag:

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## Maarkhoor

balixd said:


> Glock --- ring any bells???


Have no idea about military grade stuff but my friend owns one probably model 17 which he drops on floor from height and after that the point where polymer joint with metal started cracks and eventually complete lower part separated from the upper.

@balixd 
Check this link
The Gun Zone -- Glock 19 Cracked Frame


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## Icarus

RAMPAGE said:


> The mag, Sir. There is your evidence.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Icarus
> 
> With 5.56 mag:



Are there any pictures with the mag inserted into the rifle?

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## RAMPAGE

balixd said:


> even if it is 39 --- we will get both variants --- 556 & 39


It is. There is only one variant and it is capable of firing both 556 and 39.



Icarus said:


> Are there any pictures with the mag inserted into the rifle?



Do tell what you think.

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## Amaa'n

OverLoad said:


> Have no idea about military grade stuff but my friend owns one probably model 17 which he drops on floor from height and after that the point where polymer joint with metal started cracks and eventually complete lower part separated from the upper.
> 
> @balixd
> Check this link
> The Gun Zone -- Glock 19 Cracked Frame


I can't open any firearm related link --- at work --- for most of these cracked cases are the ones with culprit ammo -- overcharged ammunition ---- otherwise i can post pictures of Berreta & 1911 metal frames too ---- as far as 17 is concerned then you sure it was a real deal because Glocks were basically dropped from Helis to ensure they are drop safe ---

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## Amaa'n

RAMPAGE said:


> Lekin meri jaan, Not one of the other rifles is a 556.
> 
> @balixd
> 
> I think that you were told that because they're testing it with both calibers.


dimagh ki dahi bna di hai tum logon ne man!!!
uff itna tou police walay bhi interrogate nhn karte jitna yahan pe hota hai -----phew!!!
aik ka jawab dou tu dosra peechay ready hota hai alert ----

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## Icarus

RAMPAGE said:


> It is. There is only one variant and it is capable of firing both 556 and 39.
> 
> 
> 
> Do tell what you think.



The mag certainly looks like a standard 7.62x39, the curve, ribbing and the opaque matte black polymer build all check out. Quite a sharp eye you have @RAMPAGE 
From the looks of it, I have to concede, it does look like they're using it with 39s.

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## RAMPAGE

balixd said:


> dimagh ki dahi bna di hai tum logon ne man!!!
> uff itna tou police walay bhi interrogate nhn karte jitna yahan pe hota hai -----phew!!!
> aik ka jawab dou tu dosra peechay ready hota hai alert ----


Sir G, aap nai 556 keh kai kal sai mere dimagh ki dahi bannai hoi thi. 



Icarus said:


> The mag certainly looks like a standard 7.62x39, the curve, ribbing and the opaque matte black polymer build all check out. Quite a sharp eye you have @RAMPAGE
> From the looks of it, I have to concede, it does look like they're using it with 39s.


Sir mai nai army kai liay apply kia tou aik dou aur logon kai ilawa aap ko bhi yaad karun ga.  jk

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## Amaa'n

RAMPAGE said:


> Sir G, aap nai 556 keh kai kal sai mere dimagh ki dahi bannai hoi thi.
> 
> 
> Sir mai nai army kai liay apply kia tou aik dou aur logon kai ilawa aap ko bhi yaad karun ga.  jk


i had seen the curve and checked with the person last night and was told 556, but then i did not argue further --- as he himself said --- ke yar jab final ho gi tou sab foujion ko mil jani hai ---- tab dekh lena konsi hai ....scar ya CZ

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## RAMPAGE

balixd said:


> i had seen the curve and checked with the person last night and was told 556, but then i did not argue further --- as he himself said --- ke yar jab final ho gi tou sab foujion ko mil jani hai ---- tab dekh lena konsi hai ....scar ya CZ


They're all like that. 

@balixd kal mai nai bhi issi liay ziada behas nahi ki kiun kai @That Guy and and an another member nai meri achi khasi lai li thi prices kai topic pai. Mai nai socha chup hi rehna acha hai lekin when all things considered, 556 was simply not making any sense.


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## Amaa'n

RAMPAGE said:


> Sir mai *nai army kai liay apply kia tou* aik dou aur logon kai ilawa aap ko bhi yaad karun ga.  jk


how old are you, again???


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## RAMPAGE

balixd said:


> how old are you, again???


Very early twenties.

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## Tipu7

PDF is such a place, where people in late 30s call people in early 20s as SIR.......
You both guys are less than 26 ......
Aren't you?


RAMPAGE said:


> Very early twenties.





balixd said:


> how old are you, again???

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## DESERT FIGHTER

balixd said:


> that AK man --- see the Russian dude and the pic i attached ----


Not AK... Different butt stock,grip and barrel... AK has a "full" butt stock and the AK barrel... Unable to post pics right now.. Will post later.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Jonah Arthur said:


> It think SCAR will be best option to replace our Battle rifle G3.
> We have to replace our Type56 and type 81 SMGs with Ak103 sega.
> @OverLoad @DESERT FIGHTER @Zibago am i right?


56 replaced the MP5... We don't use 81.... AK-100 series already in use with SSG.

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## Psychic

Icarus said:


> The mag certainly looks like a standard 7.62x39, the curve, ribbing and the opaque matte black polymer build all check out. Quite a sharp eye you have @RAMPAGE
> From the looks of it, I have to concede, it does look like they're using it with 39s.


Sir this question came into my mind which I asked in this thread earlier:
"*What is the smallest independent unit in the PA? Section or fireteam? 
Can you tell something about the weapon distribution at section/fireteam level (no of LMGs, RPGs, DMR)."*

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/pakistan...cement-competition-2016.426049/#ixzz43AWBPrXX


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## Psychic

Icarus said:


> The mag certainly looks like a standard 7.62x39, the curve, ribbing and the opaque matte black polymer build all check out. Quite a sharp eye you have @RAMPAGE
> From the looks of it, I have to concede, it does look like they're using it with 39s.


Sir this question came into my mind which I asked in this thread earlier:
"*What is the smallest independent unit in the PA? Section or fireteam? 
Can you tell something about the weapon distribution at section/fireteam level (no of LMGs, RPGs, DMR)."*

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/pakistan...cement-competition-2016.426049/#ixzz43AWBPrXX


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## Icarus

Psychic said:


> Sir this question came into my mind which I asked in this thread earlier:
> "*What is the smallest independent unit in the PA? Section or fireteam?
> Can you tell something about the weapon distribution at section/fireteam level (no of LMGs, RPGs, DMR)."*
> 
> Source: Pakistan's Service Rifle Replacement Competition 2016.



That depends largely on the nature of the operation, the geographic location and a host of other factors. Besides SOP, a successful military should be able to orient itself in response to the position it finds itself in.

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## proka89

Here i am again quoting the same guy from Zastava. Two hours ago he wrote this:



> Sutra se zavrsava zimski deo ispitivanja u okviru tendera za novu pusku Pakistanske armije.
> Trajao je dva ipo meseca i dobro smo prosli na svim testovima.Na nekima smo bili egal sa konkurencijom a na nekima bolji.Na ovaj deo ispitivanja su od petnaestak ponudjaca pozvana cetiri.Zastava,Zbrojovka,FN i Bereta.Zbrojovka je otpala u toku ovog kruga ispitivanja.
> Ucestvujemo u okviru klase 7.62x51 NATO.
> Sa nama su jos ostali u igri Bereta i FN.



*Translation:*

"Tomorrow ends up the winter part of testing within the framework of a tender for a new rifle for the Pakistani Army. It lasted for two and a half months, and we did well in all tests. On some of them we were equal with the competition, and on some we were better. To this part of the testing of the fifteen contenders they invited four. Zastava, Zbrojovka, FN and Beretta. *Zbrojovka was eliminated during this round of the tests*. We participate in 7.62x51 NATO class. Contenders that are still left with us are FN and Beretta."

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## Tipu7

And what is this?

@RAMPAGE @balixd @Horus @DESERT FIGHTER @Zarvan

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## Sulman Badshah

*By a Friend *
Brief intro into the PAs G3A3 replacement program.
Recently PAs COAS Gen Raheel Sharif was briefed at the Wah Cantt about the new rifles undergoing trials to replace the G3A3 rifle. The rifles in question are the Beretta ARX-200 from Italy, the FN de Herstal SCAR-H from Belgium, the CZUB CZ807 from the Czech Republic, the Kalashnikov Concern AK-103 from Russia and a modernised Zastava M77B from Serbia.
*Beretta ARX-200*
The ARX-200 is basically an enlarged version of the ARX-160 which is in service with Egyptian and Azeri SF. The rifle is short-stroke gas piston operated and has a rotating bolt like the ARX-160. The barrel length of the rifle is 16" and other than that no other barrel length has been offered for CQC by Beretta as of now. The rifle has no upper or lower reciever like AR-15 everything is encased in a Polymer shell like the Tavor.. The controls would be similar to the ARX-160A3 which was lauded for it's ambidextrous controls, the magazine release is placed in 3 places, bolt release in the trigger guard on both left and right side and ambidextrous safety selector. It does not have the ARX-160s ejection port side changing facility and charging handle is fixed on the left side only. It will have an adjustable gas regulator. The rifle feeds from 20 rounds Magpul PMAGs. It'll be a single calibre rifle available only in 7.62x51 NATO, the rifle will be compatible with the GLX-160 40x46mm LV UBGL.
*FN de Herstal SCAR-H*
SCAR-H came out of SOCOM program to replace the M14/Mk.14. It's in service with the SOCOM primarily and is used as a light-weight DMR. The rifle shown at the trials was a SCAR-H standard with a 16" barrel. The SCAR-H operates from a short stroke gas piston with rortating bolt. It's available in 12" CQB barrel, 16" standard barrel and 20" long barrel. The rifle has a polymer lower and a machined aluminimum upper. The controls on the SCAR-H are similar to the AR-15 with an ambidextrous magazine release and safety selector, the bolt release is on the left side only. The weapons ejects from the right side only. The charging handles direction can be changed from the left to right side and vice-versa although this requires some disassembly. The barrel change ins't quick change per-se like the AUG for example and requires disassembly and torx tools. The rifle feeds from 20 rounds proprietary magazine. The FN40GL 40x46mm LV UBGL is compatible with all barrel lengths.
*CZUB CZ807*
The CZ807 was developed from the CZ806 Bren 2 which itself was developed from the CZ805. It is a multi-calibre rifle available in both 5.56x45 NATO and 7.62x39mm. It is short-stroke gas piston operated with a rotating bolt. The rifle is available in 11" and 14" barrels for the 5.56mm NATO variant and probably 16" barrel for 7.62x39mm variant. The magwell was made common to accept both 5.56 STANAG magazines and a proprietary 7.62x39mm magazine or Magpul PMAGs, I am not sure which. The calibre change can be done by replacing the barrel, bolt and magazine. Control wise the rifle is very similar to SCAR and has more or less the same controls and feature. Improvements from the CZ805 are the better bolt-catch release like the AR-15 and non-reciprocating charging handle. The G1 40x46mm LV UBGL is compatible with the rifle.
*Kalashnikov Concern AK-103*
Not going to say much about it, the only changes made were the integration of additional rails and full railed dust cover.
*Zastava M77B Modernised*
Similar to the AK-103 but in 7.62x51mm NATO calibre. Has the furniture of the new M21. Almost no information is available on it. It's barrel length is shorter than the original M77 though, maybe around 18".

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## Path-Finder

proka89 said:


> Here i am again quoting the same guy from Zastava. Two hours ago he wrote this:
> 
> 
> 
> *Translation:*
> 
> "Tomorrow ends up the winter part of testing within the framework of a tender for a new rifle for the Pakistani Army. It lasted for two and a half months, and we did well in all tests. On some of them we were equal with the competition, and on some we were better. To this part of the testing of the fifteen contenders they invited four. Zastava, Zbrojovka, FN and Beretta. *Zbrojovka was eliminated during this round of the tests*. We participate in 7.62x51 NATO class. Contenders that are still left with us are FN and Beretta."


Amazing!! Zastava have been making firearms for 167years and still going strong. Could you pump for more info .

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## Sulman Badshah

Tipu7 said:


> And what is this?
> 
> @RAMPAGE @balixd @Horus @DESERT FIGHTER @Zarvan
> 
> View attachment 299272


looks like little upgrades on PSR 90


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## django

OverLoad said:


> I have ask u many time before kindly let me know about technical details why u prefer SCAR...like metal used in barrel and chamber and their characteristic under different temperatures and endurance + which mechanism is being used in SCAR gas operating rotating bolt or blow back rotating bolt. and why the subject (in case if u provide) mechanism is suitable to Pakistani needs. Remember we have extreme weather conditions from +45 / 50 to -20 / 23 and we can't afford multiple platforms. And kindly let us know about comparison between SCAR and existing rifles we are using and specifically highlighted the edge of SCAR over other rifles. *AND PLEASE REPLY BACK THIS TIME. *
> 
> Here on PDF people don't know anything and talking expert, did you ever test fire SCAR or the rifles P.A using ?


@OverLoad Once again dost you will get a blank.



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> 56 replaced the MP5... We don't use 81.... AK-100 series already in use with SSG.


I have seen SSG with type 81 a decade back, are they in current use I have no idea.

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## Kurlang

I think the CZ Bren will win as it is comparatively cheap, reliability is also fair (fitness for use), The Czechs are willing to give the total ToT, This gun will gradually evolve when in the right hands of battle hardened Pakistani soldiers. 

It is also possible, that we may opt for two rifles, rather than one. One for extreme cold conditions (Siachin) and other for rest of Pakistani terrain. 

So finally, I think, We will see AK 100 series as well as CZ Bren.


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## Tipu7

Path-Finder said:


> Amazing!! Zastava have been making firearms for 167years and still going strong. Could you pump for more info .


*Zbrojovka?*



proka89 said:


> Here i am again quoting the same guy from Zastava. Two hours ago he wrote this:
> 
> 
> 
> *Translation:*
> 
> "Tomorrow ends up the winter part of testing within the framework of a tender for a new rifle for the Pakistani Army. It lasted for two and a half months, and we did well in all tests. On some of them we were equal with the competition, and on some we were better. To this part of the testing of the fifteen contenders they invited four. Zastava, Zbrojovka, FN and Beretta. *Zbrojovka was eliminated during this round of the tests*. We participate in 7.62x51 NATO class. Contenders that are still left with us are FN and Beretta."


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## Path-Finder

Tipu7 said:


> *Zbrojovka?*


CZ

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## proka89

Path-Finder said:


> Amazing!! Zastava have been making firearms for 167years and still going strong. Could you pump for more info .



He also wrote that rifle is made with three different barrel lengths, because that's what Pakistan asked for. If more info comes out, i will let you guys know. But if Zastava knows how to make something it's AK and Mauser based rifles.

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## Tipu7

Path-Finder said:


> CZ


CZ is eliminated from Trials?
What about Ak103?
Scar H,Arx160,M21 are still in show as per him


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## Path-Finder

proka89 said:


> He also wrote that rifle is made with three different barrel lengths, because that's what Pakistan asked for. If more info comes out, i will let you guys know. But if Zastava knows how to make something it's AK and Mauser based rifles.


I will Not be surprised if Zastava Wins this competition. thanks for the info.



Tipu7 said:


> CZ is eliminated from Trials?
> What about Ak103?
> Scar H,Arx160,M21 are still in show as per him


Yes according to proka89 as the Zastava Rep has shared this info online, if you read his post it will be clear as to what he wrote.


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## proka89

Tipu7 said:


> CZ is eliminated from Trials?
> What about Ak103?
> Scar H,Arx160,M21 are still in show as per him



He pointed out that Zastava with M77 participates in 7.62x51 class. And all info he gave is for that class. So according to him competitors left for the new rifle of the Pakistani army in 7.62x51 are FN SCAR, Beretta ARX 160 and Zastava M77. I know for certain that he works in Zastava, and until now all information he gave us were accurate. I just asked him, and he also said that AK is favorite in 7.62x39.

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## Path-Finder

FN SCAR
Beretta = 7.62x51 Awaiting Winner!!
Zastava

AK 103 =7.62x39 Most Likely Won!!


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## RAMPAGE

Path-Finder said:


> I will Not be surprised if Zastava Wins this competition. thanks for the info.
> 
> 
> Yes according to proka89 as the Zastava Rep has shared this info online, if you read his post it will be clear as to what he wrote.





proka89 said:


> He pointed out that Zastava with M77 participates in 7.62x51 class. And all info he gave is for that class. So according to him competitors left for the new rifle of the Pakistani army in 7.62x51 are FN SCAR, Beretta ARX 160 and Zastava M77. I know for certain that he works in Zastava, and until now all information he gave us were accurate. I just asked him, and he also said that AK is favorite in 7.62x39.


CZ has not been eliminated. Balixd confirmed that it is very much in the game. You should ask your friend to be more clear.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Kurlang said:


> I think the CZ Bren will win as it is comparatively cheap, reliability is also fair (fitness for use), The Czechs are willing to give the total ToT, This gun will gradually evolve when in the right hands of battle hardened Pakistani soldiers.
> 
> It is also possible, that we may opt for two rifles, rather than one. One for extreme cold conditions (Siachin) and other for rest of Pakistani terrain.
> 
> So finally, I think, We will see AK 100 series as well as CZ Bren.



CZ is also multi cal.


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## Path-Finder

RAMPAGE said:


> CZ has not been eliminated. Balixd confirmed that it is very much in the game. You should ask your friend to be more clear.


we have info in bits and pieces. What ever the truth it will be out soon!


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## proka89

RAMPAGE said:


> CZ has not been eliminated. Balixd confirmed that it is very much in the game. You should ask your friend to be more clear.



Can't ask him to be more clear, when he was perfectly clear. I already translated to you guys what he wrote. And i can't be 100% sure that everything he told us is truth. But i am 100% sure that he does work in Zastava, and so far he never gave us false information on Serbian military forums.

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## RAMPAGE

proka89 said:


> Can't ask him to be more clear, when he was perfectly clear. I already translated to you guys what he wrote. And i can't be 100% sure that everything he told us is truth. But i am 100% sure that he does work in Zastava, and so far he never gave us false information on Serbian military forums.


CZ is in 7.62x39 mm class.


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## proka89

RAMPAGE said:


> CZ is in 7.62x39 mm class.


Maybe they participated in both 7.62x51 and 7.62x39, and were eliminated in 7.62x51, but are still competing in 7.62x39.


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## RAMPAGE

proka89 said:


> Maybe they participated in both 7.62x51 and 7.62x39, and were eliminated in 7.62x51, but are still competing in 7.62x39.


I don't think so.


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## simple Brain

*Comparison*





*Gun Review: SCAR 17S (Semi-Auto Civilian SCAR-H)*
By Nick Leghorn on January 9, 2012






The United States hasn’t fielded a true .30 caliber battle rifle since Vietnam when the M-14 was replaced. And for good reason. A “full size” rifle cartridge like the 7.62 NATO has a lot of muzzle energy and consequently a ton of recoil compared to the gentle 5.56 NATO round and creating a gun that can operate well with those kinds of forces acting on it is a challenge. Fabrique Nationale d’Herstal (FNH) thinks they’ve got a winning design in their SCAR-H, which the military is in the process of adopting. Not to leave us civilians out (and our pocketbooks) FNH USA introduced the SCAR 17S, a semiautomatic version imported from Belgium that one of our readers let me play with this past weekend…


SCAR stands for “Special operations forces Combat Assault Rifle,” a name indicating who the intended client of the version with a giggle switch was. The rifle is designed around a short stroke recoil system much like the M1 carbine or even the Saiga shotgun, where the expanding gases are mostly contained within a telescoping piston which briefly acts on the bolt carrier. The short stroke recoil system allows for cleaner operation than direct gas impingement, with FNH claiming a 90% reduction in carbon in the action compared to an AR-15. That, in theory, should reduce the maintenance required to keep the firearm operating.

Short stroke recoil has another benefit, especially with larger calibers. The power behind short stroke recoil comes from a rather heavy bolt carrier assembly — the piston is only in contact with the bolt carrier for a short period of time. The bolt carrier needs enough momentum from that contact to successfully cycle the action, momentum provided by a beefy carrier. Having all that mass sliding around means that the force of the recoil is spread over a longer period of time, making it feel remarkably lighter and allowing for more accurate follow up shots. But we’ll get into that later.





With the SCAR, the controls are mostly ambidextrous. The safety and magazine release can be operated from either side of the firearm but the bolt catch is only on the left. So left handed shooters would either need to figure out how to manipulate the bolt catch despite their sinister characteristics or use the charging handle, which can be swapped from one side of the bolt carrier to the other depending on user preference.

And that’s where we run headlong into the first complaint I have about this weapon.





The charging handle on the SCAR is directly attached to the bolt carrier. While it’s fantastic that the charging handle is forward of the chamber (as this allows for better manipulation), the fact that it’s directly attached means that it reciprocates. Every time the gun fires, the thing moves back and forth, exactly like the charging handle on an AK. This sucks for a number of reasons.

First, a reciprocating charging handle sucks because it has the potential to injure the operator. The DP-28 machine gun had a similar reciprocating charging handle mounted on the bottom of the gun. I had welts for weeks after firing one that reminded me to never try and fire it offhand ever again. If you get your meat in the way of that metal, it might hurt you and being hurt in a gunfight is an extreme disadvantage. Plus, pain sucks in general, even if you’re not being shot at.

The second reason a reciprocating charging handle sucks is that it has the potential to get caught on something and fail to cycle. From my own 3-gun experience I can think of a couple of scenarios where I had to fire through a tight space. There were plenty of opportunities to catch a charging handle on a strategically placed curtain or a particularly tight corner. In addition, the age-old trick of bracing the gun against the side of the obstacle might in fact cause the failure to cycle if you brace it in the wrong place. It adds one more thing that could go wrong.

Third, it throws off the balance of the firearm as it cycles. On a firearm like the AR-15 or the SCAR, almost everything about the action is symmetrical so that the recoil from the round going off and the action cycling goes straight back into the shooter’s shoulder and moves the barrel as little left or right as possible. Adding a big chunk of metal to the side of the gun that moves back and forth seems to be a good way to make the gun “walk” to one side or the other when firing. It’s unbalanced, and that annoys me.





There is one nice thing about a forward charging handle, though — press checks are amazingly quick and simple. Your thumb is already right there, you just need to reach up and slide it back. I thought that was nifty, but it probably could have been done without making me worry about smacking my thumb. I’ve already been to the emergency room once for a firearm related thumb injury and I’d rather not do it again.

Moving on…





Unlike the AR-15 which uses a buffer assembly in the stock to accept the moving bolt carrier and return it to battery, the SCAR uses a spring which fits entirely in the upper receiver. A number of companies have started fitting various AR-15 models with this feature, but it’s probably best implemented in this design. The internal spring means the receiver itself needs to be a tad longer but the buttstock can be folded to the side to allow for a smaller package for transport. It’s a nifty feature. Not necessarily one I require, but nifty nonetheless.

Speaking of the stock, one of the reasons that the M-14 was replaced with the M-16 was the stock. The M-14 used a traditional stock that placed the shooter’s eye level with the barrel and that recoil from full-auto fire was being directed over the shooter’s shoulder instead of directly into it. This led to uncontrollable muzzle climb, an issue fixed with the AR-15’s in-line recoil system. And while it may appear at first glance that the SCAR has the same issues as the M-14, in reality the barrel and bolt carrier are still directly in line with the shooter’s shoulder just like in the M-16. The swell in the stock you’re seeing is from the rail being placed above the gas piston system, which adds about an inch of height over the bore compared to the AR-15 and allows for optics to be placed on the rail without risers. Well, mostly.





Last but not least, I want to talk about the muzzle brake. While you might be able to get away without a muzzle brake on a 5.56 NATO rifle it’s practically required equipment on a “tactical” 7.62 NATO firearm. In order to make faster follow-up shots you need to be able to control the firearm and minimize any movement resulting from firing the gun, something which a muzzle brake was specifically designed to do. And despite the strange shape, this one does its job extremely well. Even from a standing position, I was able to keep the gun under control and recoil was close to nonexistent. It’s a nice touch that adds a ton of controlability to the firearm.

Oh, and the gun has side and bottom rails as well as a full length top rail and can be disassembled and reassembled easily. FYI.





A quick note about import restrictions before we move on to the end of our journey.

The “real” FN SCAR-H is manufactured at a plant in South Carolina, but the civilian version comes from a plant in Belgium. Yes, the country in Europe – a place where the market is significantly smaller for the civilian variant of a military firearm. It doesn’t make a lot of sense to me for FNH to be importing these guns, especially considering that once you import the firearm into the country it comes under the control of that pesky 922(R) law that makes it a felony to slap a high capacity magazine in a freshly imported firearm.

FNH USA changes out a couple of minor parts to become 922(R) compliant and modifies the lower receivers to take the high capacity magazines once they enter the country (the remnants of the crippling process is the rib on the back of the magazine and the corresponding slot in the receiver) but it still doesn’t make sense to me that they would set up a shop overseas to make the SCAR 17S for the US market when they already have a plant tooled up right here in the States. I’m sure it adds some dollars to the final price of the gun, which is not an inconsiderable amount.

A side effect of the crippling and de-crippling process for the magazines is that only FNH’s proprietary magazines will fit in the gun. Not even the much loved AR-10 PMAGs will fit — only FNH’s 20-round aluminum monstrosities. Which will make getting additional magazines not only difficult, but expensive.




The real question is how well it shoots. And while the FNH 3-gun team seems to be in love with it I’m not so enamored.

There’s nothing technically wrong with the rifle. It’s accurate, it functions and recoil is negligible. It’s just a question of how the thing feels and to me, it’s too bulky.

There’s a lot of mass in that rifle, and moving it from one target to another (let alone manhandling it around a course) takes some effort. It feels like I have a German shepherd in my hands instead of a nice svelte rifle.

If I’m flying full tilt down a course of fire in competition shooting, I want something that I can maneuver quickly, not this oversized fish-like firearm. Unless I’m shooting heavy metal division, in which case this firearm would actually be a perfect replacement for the M1A and AR-10 currently being used.

If I’m out hunting, I want something that I can keep a low profile with and carry for miles without getting tired, not this eight pound monstrosity. Unless I’m hog hunting and using a vehicle, in which case the bulk would be much more manageable.

If I’m on the range I want an inexpensive caliber that I can fire without my wallet trying to strangle me. Unless I don’t particularly care about accuracy and am using cheap milsurp ammo.

If I’m getting a home defense rifle I want something with enough power to put down a bad guy without blowing out my eardrums and a round that stops or significantly loses velocity after hitting flesh instead of continuing through the next few walls. Unless I live on a ranch and expect my attackers to be at a distance.

The place where this kind of firearm works best is the military where you need to project firepower over great distances. I can definitely see improvements over the M-14 and AR-10 for that application, but not much else. There are some rather specific niches into which the SCAR can fit in civilian shooting, but the question is whether the benefits of the platform in those very specific situations warrant the hefty price tag.





In short, the FNH SCAR 17S is a perfectly viable solution to an existing problem for the military, but it doesn’t necessarily translate into a good firearm for civilians. It’s a cool firearm that’s fun to shoot, but save for a handful of very specific scenarios I just don’t see much of an application for it beyond that. I could see spending $500 or $1,000 on a gun just for the cool factor, but $3,000 is too much in my opinion especially when you take into account my problems with a reciprocating charging handle.

*FNH SCAR 17S*

*Specifications*
Caliber: 7.62 NATO
Barrel: 16.25″
Overall: 38.5″ (28.5″ folded)
Weight: 8.0 lbs Empty
Capacity: 10 or 20 rounds
MSRP: $2,900

*Ratings (Out of Five Stars)*
All ratings are relative to other similar guns, and the final score IS NOT calculated from the constituent scores.

*Accuracy: * * * * **
We were singing steel at 250 yards with this rifle. Accuracy is not an issue if in the right hands.

*Ergonomics: * * **
This gun is chubby. Yep, chubby. That’s a good word to describe it. I can’t even get my big hands around the gun for my typical aggressive “thumb forward” grip.

*Ergonomics Firing: * * **
That’s (-3) stars for making me worry about the safety of my thumb but (+1) stars for the fantastic job they did mitigating recoil. There’s also a bit of creep in the trigger which I find slightly maddening.

*Reliability: * * * **
I’m dropping a star off for the external reciprocating charging handle. Other than that it works like a Swiss clock.

*Customization: * * * **
There’s tons of stuff you can do to this rifle. In theory, at least. Changing out barrels and swapping accessories is easy as pie, but I haven’t seen that many aftermarket parts for these guns yet. Tango Down has some good stuff, but not many other places have parts.

*Overall Rating: * * **
For three grand I was expecting… more. I was disappointed. It’s a fun range toy and probably great for hog hunting but I don’t see much of a use beyond that. There’s nothing this rifle does any better that an M1A or an AR-10 or even an FAL can’t do equally well for half the price besides looking cool and having slightly better ergonomics.

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## simple Brain

*Gun Review: Krebs Custom’s AK-103K Rifle*
Krebs' AK-103K is an American-perfected 7.62x39mm Russian AK with outstanding accuracy!
OCT 8, 2014
BY JORGE AMSELLE


































A standard Saiga Sporter is converted back to a warrior by Krebs Custom with many of their own improvements making this classic better than the original. Shown with Insight Mini Red Dot Sight.

I may not be first in line to purchase a Russian-made car or TV, but when it comes to firearms, Russia certainly has a long warrior tradition that values highly effective arms, and it’s possible that there is no firearm this is more true of than the AK. When it comes to real Russian AKs, there is one place that comes to mind immediately for Kalashnikov enthusiasts: Izhmash Arms Factory, which was originally founded over 200 years ago by Czar Alexander I. Located in Izhevsk, deep within the Western Urals and almost 500 miles east of Moscow, Izhmash was Mikhail Kalashnikov’s workplace for 60 years, beginning shortly after World War II.

The AK rifles produced by Izhmash are imported to the U.S. as sporting rifles under the Saiga name. That means you get a very plain-looking polymer buttstock, no protruding pistol grip, a trigger and triggerguard moved far to the rear of the receiver, and an elongated handguard. But, you also get a rifle made to original military specs in the same factory that makes Russian military arms, by the same people. Several domestic manufacturers do a brisk business of legally converting these AKs back to their original configuration by adding the requisite number of U.S. parts. However, for me there is no manufacturer that does a better job of working on Saiga AKs than Krebs Custom.

Gun Details

The Krebs AK-103K may start as a Russian AK, but the addition of American ingenuity in my opinion makes it better than the original. Krebs starts out with a rock-solid reliable, semi-automatic, rotary-bolt, long-stroke-gas-piston-operated rifle complete with a hammer-forged, chrome-lined barrel chambered in traditional 7.62x39mm. On the AK-103K model tested, Krebs cut the barrel down to 14 inches and then added a permanently attached muzzle brake to bring the legal barrel length to 16.5 inches. The brake itself is made by Krebs and modeled on the original Russian brake for the AK-74 rifle. Unlike the old slant-style brake, which simply direct gasses upwards to offset muzzle rise, this brake uses a two-chambered system that actively reduces felt recoil.

RELATED: Running Red: 20 Top AK-47s & Soviet Weapons

Three ports located at the back of the brake direct gasses upward and to the right to counter muzzle rise. In addition, the front of the muzzle brake features a distinct open split. Slots at the front of the chamber direct gasses backward, pushing the rifle forward and also reducing felt recoil. The final result of all of this is a brake that keeps the rifle on target for faster follow-up shots, noticeably reducing perceived recoil to the point that the 7.62x39mm cartridge feels closer to a 5.56x45mm—and there is very little muzzle flash. Underneath the barrel are an original bayonet lug and steel cleaning rod.

The gas block itself is also of the AK-74 variety and features a distinct 90-degree angle instead of the old, more slanted look of the original AK-47. When the Soviets switched from the standard 7.62x39mm cartridge to the new smaller diameter 5.45x39mm cartridge, the size and angle of the gas hole in the barrel reportedly caused some incidents of bullet shear. This resulted in bullet shavings entering the gas system and degrading the operation, while the damaged bullet had reduced accuracy. The 90-degree gas block presented a smaller opening and resolved this issue and has been applied to a variety of new-production Kalashnikov rifles.

Like all AK-pattern rifles, the Krebs AK-103K uses a long-stroke gas-piston system of operation. The gasses bled from the barrel directly impact a long, chrome-plated, steel piston that is permanently affixed to the bolt carrier and charging handle. This carries the rotating bolt, which features two locking lugs on its face. When firing, the operating rod, handle and unlocked bolt move back as one unit, improving the rifle’s reliability in field conditions. This is nevertheless a lot of mass slamming back and forth, which can increase perceived recoil, shift point of aim and affect accuracy. Indeed, AKs are not generally admired for their accuracy, although they can be capable of achieving very good results in this regard. The effect of this system on reliability is undeniable, however, and this is one of the AK’s key strengths. The fixed charging handle does reciprocate when firing (so some attention needs to be paid to weapon position), but it also makes a very effective forward assist and helps greatly if you need to remove a stuck round.

Krebs takes this already reliable system and improves it by smoothing the action, dehorning the edges inside and out, and adding a tuned U.S. trigger and safety selector. The Krebs custom safety selector, made from a single 1mm-thick piece of stamped steel, is indeed worthy of mention and a drastic improvement over the standard Russian selector. The new right-side-mounted safety selector features a cutout that serves as a manually activated bolt hold-open device. Normally, AK selectors have an extension at the front to operate them and require the user to remove his or her hand from the pistol grip to do so. But the Krebs Custom selector adds an extended tab at the rear bottom of the selector, which allows the shooter (if right-handed) to use the trigger finger to operate it without having to remove the hand from the pistol grip. This makes operation of the rifle by the user much easier.

The handguard and pistol grip are standard, U.S.-made, black polymer parts. They are well executed and attractive while remaining true to the dimensions of the original. The buttstock, however, has been replaced with a complete unit from VLTOR that is specifically made for a stamped-receiver AK. An AR-style, aluminum receiver-extension tube allows for the use of any mil-spec collapsible stock. The receiver tube is very well built and sturdy.

The VLTOR receiver extension tube offers five levels of adjustment for length of pull, and the numbers are clearly marked on top, so it is easy for the operator to return to a desired position. The tube also has ambidextrous single-point sling attachment mounts at the front and a sizable waterproof internal storage space, which is easily accessed from the rear by removing the buttstock. The black polymer stock itself is the VLTOR IMod (improved modstock), which features its own battery storage spaces and ambidextrous single-point sling attachment mounts, as well as a sling mount on top. The buttpad has a thick rubber covering with a tire-track pattern for improved shoulder retention.

One common criticism of the AK design is that it does not lend itself to easy mounting of optics. Mounting a length of rail to the top receiver cover is simply not stable enough to hold zero for serious shooting. The Russians added a much sturdier optics mount to the left side of the receiver itself, but this often leaves the optic slightly offset and mounted too high for a comfortable cheekweld. Krebs Custom resolves this with the addition of its outstanding rear-sight receiver rail system. This rail rides as low as possible over the receiver cover, without replacing it. It attaches solidly at the rear sight base and the buttstock tang. This solid, anodized 7075 aluminum system provides 8 inches of Picatinny rail for attaching optics.

At the rear of the system is an AR-style peep sight with a small and large flip aperture that can be adjusted for elevation, as well as an AR-style windage adjustment knob. These iron sights are not only a huge improvement over the standard AK sights but also address another criticism of the AK: the short sight radius. The Krebs system extends the sight radius all the way to the rear of the receiver, a 60 percent improvement that increases the rifle’s accuracy potential. This system also allows for easy disassembly with an AR-style takedown pin at the rear, which allows the entire rail to rotate up for removal of the receiver cover. Standard AK disassembly is then possible for routine maintenance.

The fit and finish of the Krebs Custom AK-103K is flawless. Krebs has taken the standard Russian finish and replaced it with its KrebsKote solvent-proof finish. The end result is the best I have seen on an AK.

Range Time

At the range the AK-103K performed flawlessly with zero malfunctions of any sort and was extremely comfortable to shoot. The AK-74-style muzzle brake significantly reduced the rifle’s already light recoil, and the tuned trigger was very smooth with a 4.5-pound pull. This is still a standard AK-type single-stage trigger with a long degree of travel, which can make it difficult to tell when it will break, but it is still far better than most AK triggers I have used.

For accuracy testing I installed the Millet DMS scope with a quickly adjustable variable 1-4×24 illuminated reticle for low-light use, This scope is excellent both as a CQB sight and for engaging targets at distances out to 500 yards. The reticle has a simple 1-MOA dot surrounded by an 18-MOA donut, which can be used for range estimation. From a benchrest at 100 yards and using a mix of ammunition, the AK-103K performed very well, producing consistent 2- to 3-MOA results with several groups measuring under 2 MOA. This is excellent accuracy for a combat rifle.

AK fans have a lot of options and variety available to them today, considering all the different nations that have produced this classic rifle. But Marc Krebs of Krebs Custom really does stand out. Krebs cut his teeth as a gunsmith under the tutelage of master gunsmith Bob Dunlap and began building custom 1911s before venturing into military rifles. I for one am certainly glad that his interests settled on the AK, where in my opinion his innovation and custom work has produced one of the best AK variants available today.

Gun Review: Krebs Custom's AK-103K Rifle


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## That Guy

While I'm confident that the SCAR will probably win, I really hope Beretta wins. Italian-Indian relations aren't that good, and it would be nice to gain another friendly relation within the EU. I mean, Italy and Pakistan already have good defense relations, with Pakistan manufacturing and using one of Italy's most advanced and popular drones, the Falco MAME UAV (Pakistan was the launch customer). This deal could very well open the flood gates for much further cooperation between the two.

Besides, the ARX is a really damn good service rifle, and it would be a worthy successor to the G3s and AKs.

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## Zarvan

That Guy said:


> While I'm confident that the SCAR will probably win, I really hope Beretta wins. Italian-Indian relations aren't that good, and it would be nice to gain another friendly relation within the EU. I mean, Italy and Pakistan already have good defense relations, with Pakistan manufacturing and using one of Italy's most advanced and popular drones, the Falco MAME UAV (Pakistan was the launch customer). This deal could very well open the flood gates for much further cooperation between the two.
> 
> Besides, the ARX is a really damn good service rifle, and it would be a worthy successor to the G3s and AKs.


Yes we have always remained more close to Italy as compared to India. Still FN SCAR should win because from different versions to far less recoil and more accuracy it offers everything. AK-103 is now a 25 year old Gun if we go for it I am pretty sure within 15 years we would be looking for new Gun.

@kaonalpha Sir as cat is out of the bag. I have few questions one is if 14 companies wanted to come why only 5 were allowed ? Second question is as winter trials are over can you get the info which Gun is leading right now. I hope and pray for FN SCAR.


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## Immanuel

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> COAS visit to POF -- undertrial rifles;
> 
> Pakistan Military Multimedia | Page 326
> 
> @Immanuel oops that's a scar in the pic..



Trials are one thing, I never said SCAR wasn't under trials. However, if others including Turkish rifles clear trials then in all in cases the lowest bidder wins, so SCAR won't make it into service unless its the only contender that will clear trials, very unlikely. Regardless of local manufacture, SCAR won't cost anything less than $2500 per unit including licencing fees and let alone without any sort of optics.


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## Kompromat

Because you are saying so?



Immanuel said:


> Trials are one thing, I never said SCAR wasn't under trials. However, if others including Turkish rifles clear trials then in all in cases the lowest bidder wins, so SCAR won't make it into service unless its the only contender that will clear trials, very unlikely. Regardless of local manufacture, *SCAR won't cost anything less than $2500 per unit* including licencing fees and let alone without any sort of optics.

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## Amaa'n

RAMPAGE said:


> CZ is in 7.62x39 mm class.


i think you are confusing CZ from Czech Republic - the manufacturer of CZ75, CZ 806 Bren with that of Zastava Arms from Serbia - the manufacturer of CZ 999 Scorpion & M77 / M21

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## Immanuel

Horus said:


> Because you are saying so?



Because I know so, I live in Belgium and have very close contacts at FN. The average cost of this civilian spec rifle in the US is well over $3000. Mil spec versions cost more, for them to offer the Rifle in various configurations as you mention requires them to harmonize licencing fees and thus you can be sure if the deal does go through, it will be expensive and no rifle will cost less then $2500 per unit.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Immanuel said:


> Trials are one thing, I never said SCAR wasn't under trials. However, if others including Turkish rifles clear trials then in all in cases the lowest bidder wins, so SCAR won't make it into service unless its the only contender that will clear trials, very unlikely. Regardless of local manufacture, SCAR won't cost anything less than $2500 per unit including licencing fees and let alone without any sort of optics.




You don't try a rifle you can't buy... That's logic... Not Indian logic!

Turkish rifle isn't even trials... 

Try 

CZ A2
ARX 200
AK-103
Scar H
M-77B mod



Immanuel said:


> Because I know so, I live in Belgium and have very close contacts at FN. The average cost of this civilian spec rifle in the US is well over $3000. Mil spec versions cost more, for them to offer the Rifle in various configurations as you mention requires them to harmonize licencing fees and thus you can be sure if the deal does go through, it will be expensive and no rifle will cost less then $2500 per unit.



Boy.. You are one annoying cheap little chap!

First you claimed Pak can't even try Scar .. Than when we post pics of The weapons under trial .. You shamelessly claim we can afford it ? That's a dumbass logic..

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## Immanuel

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> You don't try a rifle you can't buy... That's logic... Not Indian logic!
> 
> Turkish rifle isn't even trials...
> 
> Try
> 
> CZ A2
> ARX 200
> AK-103
> Scar H
> M-77B mod



Well then the AK-103 will win, quite simply because it will mostly clear trials and will be among the lowest bidders.



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> You don't try a rifle you can't buy... That's logic... Not Indian logic!
> 
> Turkish rifle isn't even trials...
> 
> Try
> 
> CZ A2
> ARX 200
> AK-103
> Scar H
> M-77B mod
> 
> 
> 
> Boy.. You are one annoying cheap little chap!
> 
> First you claimed Pak can't even try Scar .. Than when we post pics of The weapons under trial .. You shamelessly claim we can afford it ? That's a dumbass logic..



Boy you have issues reading, I never said Pak can't try SCAR. I also never said, you can't afford it, I am only saying it's quite expensive. Learn to read and stop talking about things I never said.


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## RAMPAGE

balixd said:


> i think you are confusing CZ from Czech Republic - the manufacturer of CZ75, CZ 806 Bren with that of Zastava Arms from Serbia - the manufacturer of CZ 999 Scorpion & M77 / M21


No I'm not. Why do you say that?


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## kaonalpha

Zarvan said:


> Yes we have always remained more close to Italy as compared to India. Still FN SCAR should win because from different versions to far less recoil and more accuracy it offers everything. AK-103 is now a 25 year old Gun if we go for it I am pretty sure within 15 years we would be looking for new Gun.
> 
> @kaonalpha Sir as cat is out of the bag. I have few questions one is if 14 companies wanted to come why only 5 were allowed ? Second question is as winter trials are over can you get the info which Gun is leading right now. I hope and pray for FN SCAR.


Apparently what our pure and innocent army brats don't realize , is that lobbying is all most everywhere also we had to go for a poor man's choice, but since the chief has given a shut up call to DG budget and R&D branch , who have taken all chiefs prior for a cheap alternative ride. Plus we had to be sure that the company would provide a proper license for the next 30 decades. Also we are investing in other defense procurement including the Umkhonto missile defence system.

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## Zarvan

kaonalpha said:


> Apparently what our pure and innocent army brats don't realize , is that lobbying is all most everywhere also we had to go for a poor man's choice, but since the chief has given a shut up call to DG budget and R&D branch , who have taken all chiefs prior for a cheap alternative ride. Plus we had to be sure that the company would provide a proper license for the next 30 decades. Also we are investing in other defense procurement including the Umkhonto missile defence system.


Sir FN SCAR among those tested shows we are not interested in cheaper option. I hope to see the winner soon. @Sulman Badshah @Tipu7

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## kaonalpha

Zarvan said:


> Sir FN SCAR among those tested shows we are not interested in cheaper option. I hope to see the winner soon. @Sulman Badshah @Tipu7


The chief has been gracious indeed we are now getting better food in our units as wells.



kaonalpha said:


> The chief has been gracious indeed we are now getting better food in our units as wells.


Also it is sad that Gen Hayat will replace such a great man of endeavor and patriotism..

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## RAMPAGE

kaonalpha said:


> Also it is sad that Gen Hayat will replace such a great man of endeavor and patriotism..


Why is it sad?


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## Tipu7

kaonalpha said:


> lus we had to be sure that the company would provide a proper license for the next *30 decades*


3 decades.


kaonalpha said:


> Also we are investing in other defense procurement including the *Umkhonto missile defence system*


Justify your claim further. Are we "investing"in South African anti air system?
Another medium altitude air defense in the presence of Hq17???


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Immanuel said:


> Well then the AK-103 will win, quite simply because it will mostly clear trials and will be among the lowest bidders.



Troll .. The rifle will be picked depending upon the trial results not affordability! That's why only top of the line weapons are in the contenders list! Not the cheapest!

And according to news Scar is already on the shortlist!


> Boy you have issues reading, I never said Pak can't try SCAR. I also never said, you can't afford it, I am only saying it's quite expensive. Learn to read and stop talking about things I never said.



Don't try to be a wise guy... We all know what you are trying to imply!

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## ZedZeeshan

kaonalpha said:


> The chief has been gracious indeed we are now getting better food in our units as wells.
> 
> 
> Also it is sad that Gen Hayat will replace such a great man of endeavor and patriotism..


Whats wrong with gen Hayat...on what grounds are you predicting that he will be the next Army Chief..??


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## kaonalpha

Tipu7 said:


> 3 decades.
> 
> Justify your claim further. Are we "investing"in South African anti air system?
> Another medium altitude air defense in the presence of Hq17???


E-SHORAD to be specific.



RAMPAGE said:


> Why is it sad?


Another Kyani on the way.



Tipu7 said:


> 3 decades.
> 
> Justify your claim further. Are we "investing"in South African anti air system?
> Another medium altitude air defense in the presence of Hq17???


November need LY-80 has already been secured . Along with additional batteries of FM-90

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## RAMPAGE

kaonalpha said:


> E-SHORAD to be specific.
> 
> 
> Another Kyani on the way.
> 
> 
> November need LY-80 has already been secured . Along with additional batteries of FM-90


Who would be your choice and why?

I remember the S African's were looking for a partner for an extended range variant. Is that what you meant by investing?

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## Sulman Badshah

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> And according to news Scar is already on the shortlist!



Who confirmed it ??



kaonalpha said:


> E-SHORAD to be specific.


Umkhonto series ??/

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## kaonalpha

No we would be purchasing 3-4 batteries of umkhonto missile system . As far as extended range variant is to be purchased we are not sure.

Oh and that would be Gen any one other than the Hayat brothers. They can even pull of a stunt and Make Gen. Amir Riaz the chief though he was recently promoted.


RAMPAGE said:


> Who would be your choice and why?
> 
> I remember the S African's were looking for a partner for an extended range variant. Is that what you meant by investing?



Yes the ground based launchers


Sulman Badshah said:


> Who confirmed it ??
> 
> 
> Umkhonto series ??/


----------



## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Sir FN SCAR among those tested shows we are not interested in cheaper option. I hope to see the winner soon. @Sulman Badshah @Tipu7


Can you just tell why such fanboy for SCAR? Before it was MPT76


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Can you just tell why such fanboy for SCAR? Before it was MPT76


MPT76 was the beloved because it was considered most easy option. Even than without an iota of doubt FN SCAR was favourite but most never imagined Pakistan can or even think to go for FN SCAR.



kaonalpha said:


> E-SHORAD to be specific.
> 
> 
> Another Kyani on the way.
> 
> 
> November need LY-80 has already been secured . Along with additional batteries of FM-90


Well LY-80 addition is good as for Hayat brothers I have no idea insiders knows best but it would be impossible to retrack from initiatives taken by General Raheel.

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## kaonalpha

Zarvan said:


> MPT76 was the beloved because it was considered most easy option. Even than without an iota of doubt FN SCAR was favourite but most never imagined Pakistan can or even think to go for FN SCAR.
> 
> Well LY-80 addition is good as for Hayat brothers I have no idea insiders knows best but it would be impossible to retrack from initiatives taken by General Raheel.


Consider them as PPP they'll bring the army to a new low. It takes men of resolve to build an empire over many decades ,but it takes a hypocrite mere minutes to level it.

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## Capt.Mir5832

Is the Scar-L also being considered?


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## Zarvan

Capt.Mir5832 said:


> Is the Scar-L also being considered?


Well no idea. By the way I am watching CNN and BBC and they are reporting capture of Salah Abdul Salam one of the surviving suspect of Paris Attacks, but main thing is Belgium Special Forces are carrying FN SCAR


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## Hell hound

kaonalpha said:


> Consider them as PPP they'll bring the army to a new low. It takes men of resolve to build an empire over many decades ,but it takes a hypocrite mere minutes to level it.


what are the chances that they will be selected as the future army chief?


----------



## Capt.Mir5832

Zarvan said:


> Well no idea. By the way I am watching CNN and BBC and they are reporting capture of Salah Abdul Salam one of the surviving suspect of Paris Attacks, but main thing is Belgium Special Forces are carrying FN SCAR


ok thanks.


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## Rafi

Scar is the favourite and likely winner, it is doing very well on all the tests, likely 50,000 rifles purchased with full licence production FN will include optics and also accessories including UBGL.

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## Quwa

Rafi said:


> Scar is the favourite and likely winner, it is doing very well on all the tests, likely 50,000 rifles purchased with full licence production FN will include optics and also accessories including UBGL.


Sounds right. Such an initial order is enough to re-equip the troops actively engaged in combat and to start-up production at POF. If were to assume $3500/unit (for discussion's sake), the initial cost would be $175 million U.S. From there, I think we'd be looking at an incremental induction rate of ~15,000 rifles a year over several decades, with occasional spikes of 40-50,000 during good funding years.

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## Rafi

Quwa said:


> Sounds right. Such an initial order is enough to re-equip the troops actively engaged in combat and to start-up production at POF. If were to assume $3500/unit (for discussion's sake), the initial cost would be $175 million U.S. From there, I think we'd be looking at an incremental induction rate of ~15,000 rifles a year over several decades, with occasional spikes of 40-50,000 during good funding years.



Yep, the whole project will likely to take a decade with the Navy and Air force also purchasing it, but the Army will take first take.

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## Path-Finder

FN are only too happy with transfer of technology. Transfer of Technology


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

For the price & utility----nothing beats the AK 103----


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## Zarvan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> For the price & utility----nothing beats the AK 103----


Yes but it's 25 year old weapon now and inducting them would mean within 15 years we would be looking for new one

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## MastanKhan

Zarvan said:


> Yes but it's 25 year old weapon now and inducting them would mean within 15 years we would be looking for new one




Same with scar---it won't last 15 years either.----plus you can buy almost 5 AK103's for 1 scar---seemingly---.


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## Maarkhoor

MastanKhan said:


> Same with scar---it won't last 15 years either.----plus you can buy almost 5 AK103's for 1 scar---seemingly---.


And SCAR might be bugged with kill switches ..... 

As i posted earlier weapons based on Alloys and polymer quite prone to develop cracks and have very short service life.


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## MastanKhan

OverLoad said:


> And SCAR might be bugged with kill switches .....
> 
> As i posted earlier weapons based on Alloys and polymer quite prone to develop cracks and have very short service life.




Well---the price is the kill switch---for an honest purchase---that would kill you up front.

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## Zarvan

OverLoad said:


> And SCAR might be bugged with kill switches .....
> 
> As i posted earlier weapons based on Alloys and polymer quite prone to develop cracks and have very short service life.


Mr 14 companies wanted to come we didn't went for cheapest options even for trials yet alone selecting one. @MastanKhan


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## That Guy

Quwa said:


> Sounds right. Such an initial order is enough to re-equip the troops actively engaged in combat and to start-up production at POF. If were to assume $3500/unit (for discussion's sake), the initial cost would be $175 million U.S. From there, I think we'd be looking at an incremental induction rate of ~15,000 rifles a year over several decades, with occasional spikes of 40-50,000 during good funding years.


While I agree with the numbers, I don't know if it's a good idea to give a new rifle in a large scale to soldiers that are already fighting. The reason being that they'll have to be pulled out of combat, and having to undergo rifle retraining, which can disrupt the flow of operations being conducted.

I'd say that the safer bet would be to start with newer recruits and then move up the chain, or even start with special forces whom are used to having to constantly train with newer systems, and generally don't see action until they're actively called for, to conduct specific missions (I can't really phrase this any better, I know it sounds dumb).

Then again, I'm not an expert, so I could be completely wrong.

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## MastanKhan

Zarvan said:


> Mr 14 companies wanted to come we didn't went for cheapest options even for trials yet alone selecting one. @MastanKhan



Hi,

For pakistan---scar should be for special forces---and not for regular troops---. This rifle is too expensive.

The serbian rifle is good---and the price around $500 for a large order would be the way to go. It is in the 5.56 caliber with an AK type mechanism---.

Remember---the higher the price of the rifle---the higher the bakhsheesh in the deal.


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## RAMPAGE

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> For pakistan---scar should be for special forces---and not for regular troops---. This rifle is too expensive.
> 
> The serbian rifle is good---and the price around $500 for a large order would be the way to go. It is in the 5.56 caliber with an AK type mechanism---.
> 
> Remember---the higher the price of the rifle---the higher the bakhsheesh in the deal.


Mastan Sahab. Please do a little research before posting. The Seribian M-21 is being tested with 7.62x51 ammo. 556 is not on the cards. 

We can afford Scar for our regulars if it comes out on the top.

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## Zarvan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> For pakistan---scar should be for special forces---and not for regular troops---. This rifle is too expensive.
> 
> The serbian rifle is good---and the price around $500 for a large order would be the way to go. It is in the 5.56 caliber with an AK type mechanism---.
> 
> Remember---the higher the price of the rifle---the higher the bakhsheesh in the deal.


Sir we are testing FN SCAR for infantry and company is more than willing to give with TOT. Most probably 50000 will be bought from company and rest will be produced at POF. As for affordability well we are testing this because we can afford it.


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## MastanKhan

RAMPAGE said:


> Mastan Sahab. Please do a little research before posting. The Seribian M-21 is being tested with 7.62x51 ammo. 556 is not on the cards.
> 
> We can afford Scar for our regulars if it comes out on the top.




Hi,

I re-checked---it is the Zastava M77 in .308----I am very familiar with the rifle---I used to own one---made by Valmet / Finland---many a years ago----. It was the Valmet M76

I could hit bulls eye at 100 yards without a scope---when my eyes were sharp.

This one for the .308 and the AK for the smaller bore are the best buy for the regular troops----. AK would be under 500 dollars a copy---this one under 600 a copy.

The Scar is too expensive for the military----it is fine with the special forces---but the M77 is a workhorse----.

Both the scar and and the M77 can hit a man at 300 yards---the M77 is much much cheaper to operate---basically an AK design---but much refined.

There is another benefot with going with the Zastava---the serbs have a whole defence industry and that would be a big asset for joint ventures---.

I would like to own another M77.



Zarvan said:


> Sir we are testing FN SCAR for infantry and company is more than willing to give with TOT. Most probably 50000 will be bought from company and rest will be produced at POF. As for affordability well we are testing this because we can afford it.



Son,

You need to stop talking and start listening----. Just because you have a few dollars jumping around in your pocket does not mean that you need to spend it.

The minimum cost of the scar is going to be 2500---2750 a copy---.

The minimum cost of the M77 could be around 800 dollars. There is nothing that an M77 cannot do what the scar does for regular troops.

Just because it is 3.25 times more expensive---it does not give a 3.25 times better org-asm---.

You kids need to get out of this mind set of SHOW & POMP---you need to understand what reality is---.

If the M77 passes the test---then that is the absolutely the best deal---. It is an absolute workhorse---.

I am going to check if I can find one here in the U S.

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## Mutakalim

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I re-checked---it is the Zastava M77 in .308----I am very familiar with the rifle---I used to own one---made by Valmet / Finland---many a years ago----. It was the Valmet M76
> 
> I could hit bulls eye at 100 yards without a scope---when my eyes were sharp.
> 
> This one for the .308 and the AK for the smaller bore are the best buy for the regular troops----. AK would be under 500 dollars a copy---this one under 600 a copy.
> 
> The Scar is too expensive for the military----it is fine with the special forces---but the M77 is a workhorse----.
> 
> Both the scar and and the M77 can hit a man at 300 yards---the M77 is much much cheaper to operate---basically an AK design---but much refined.
> 
> There is another benefot with going with the Zastava---the serbs have a whole defence industry and that would be a big asset for joint ventures---.
> 
> I would like to own another M77.
> 
> 
> 
> Son,
> 
> You need to stop talking and start listening----. Just because you have a few dollars jumping around in your pocket does not mean that you need to spend it.
> 
> The minimum cost of the scar is going to be 2500---2750 a copy---.
> 
> The minimum cost of the M77 could be around 800 dollars. There is nothing that an M77 cannot do what the scar does for regular troops.
> 
> Just because it is 3.25 times more expensive---it does not give a 3.25 times better org-asm---.
> 
> You kids need to get out of this mind set of SHOW & POMP---you need to understand what reality is---.
> 
> If the M77 passes the test---then that is the absolutely the best deal---. It is an absolute workhorse---.
> 
> I am going to check if I can find one here in the U S.


Another thing which amuses me is their level of confidence without using any of the above mentioned rifles.

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## Zarvan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I re-checked---it is the Zastava M77 in .308----I am very familiar with the rifle---I used to own one---made by Valmet / Finland---many a years ago----. It was the Valmet M76
> 
> I could hit bulls eye at 100 yards without a scope---when my eyes were sharp.
> 
> This one for the .308 and the AK for the smaller bore are the best buy for the regular troops----. AK would be under 500 dollars a copy---this one under 600 a copy.
> 
> The Scar is too expensive for the military----it is fine with the special forces---but the M77 is a workhorse----.
> 
> Both the scar and and the M77 can hit a man at 300 yards---the M77 is much much cheaper to operate---basically an AK design---but much refined.
> 
> There is another benefot with going with the Zastava---the serbs have a whole defence industry and that would be a big asset for joint ventures---.
> 
> I would like to own another M77.
> 
> 
> 
> Son,
> 
> You need to stop talking and start listening----. Just because you have a few dollars jumping around in your pocket does not mean that you need to spend it.
> 
> The minimum cost of the scar is going to be 2500---2750 a copy---.
> 
> The minimum cost of the M77 could be around 800 dollars. There is nothing that an M77 cannot do what the scar does for regular troops.
> 
> Just because it is 3.25 times more expensive---it does not give a 3.25 times better org-asm---.
> 
> You kids need to get out of this mind set of SHOW & POMP---you need to understand what reality is---.
> 
> If the M77 passes the test---then that is the absolutely the best deal---. It is an absolute workhorse---.
> 
> I am going to check if I can find one here in the U S.


Sir you need to calm down and listen. If we would have been interested in cheaper option than we would have went for MPT-76 or Chinese QZB-03 or even look at new Indonesian Rifle SSX. Testing Guns like FN SCAR and Berreta ARX 200 shows we are not looking to go for cheaper stuff. We want the BEST for our BEST.
@DESERT FIGHTER @kaonalpha @Horus @Khafee


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## kaonalpha

We are a very rich army as compared to our eastern neighbors but it's internal politics that prevents us from doing what is right. That and they're is an obsession with launching DHA in every nook and cranny of the country. The amountof taxes we draw from residents is enoughto raise 3 new armoured strike corps and that's a fact.This time the chief knows that

"Hond mine Koch nahi kya to bakyo NE kha pi ke moj orani heh"


Zarvan said:


> Sir you need to calm down and listen. If we would have been interested in cheaper option than we would have went for MPT-76 or Chinese QZB-03 or even look at new Indonesian Rifle SSX. Testing Guns like FN SCAR and Berreta ARX 200 shows we are not looking to go for cheaper stuff. We want the BEST for our BEST.
> @DESERT FIGHTER @kaonalpha @Horus @Khafee

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## Zarvan

kaonalpha said:


> We are a very rich army as compared to our eastern neighbors but it's internal politics that prevents us from doing what is right. That I they're is an obsession with launching DNA in every nook and crazy of the country. The amountof taxes we draw from residents is enoughto raise 3 new armoured strike corps and that's a fact.


Sir I know this tell this to other members who think we would not got for FN SCAR because it's two expensive. By the way I started a thread on Indian Defence Forum and they are way to funny.


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## kaonalpha

Zarvan said:


> Sir I know this tell this to other members who think we would not got for FN SCAR because it's two expensive. By the way I started a thread on Indian Defence Forum and they are way to funny.


Look Zarvan the other members have a justifiable reason. FN scar might not be picked if there are strings attached. There are 101 reasons that have to be throughly gone over again and again.Specially when we are capable of blowing 9 billion on useless Chinese trucks

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## Zarvan

kaonalpha said:


> Look Zarvan the other members have a justifiable reason. FN scar might not be picked if there are strings attached. There are 101 reasons that have to be throughly gone over again and again.Specially when we are capable of blowing 9 billion on useless Chinese trucks


Well yes they can have reasons but at least company policy on website states they are ready to share it with TOT. Still first step is to pass the tests and I hope to see the results in next 5 to 6 months


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## Quwa

kaonalpha said:


> We are a very rich army as compared to our eastern neighbors but it's internal politics that prevents us from doing what is right. That and they're is an obsession with launching DHA in every nook and cranny of the country. The amountof taxes we draw from residents is enoughto raise 3 new armoured strike corps and that's a fact.This time the chief knows that
> 
> "Hond mine Koch nahi kya to bakyo NE kha pi ke moj orani heh"


Sir when the country itself can generate some $15 *billion USD* for debt servicing within a *single year*, it is evident that the economy has the foundations to fund development and defence. It's like seeing a C-grade kid do his math homework, he gets the answers by just looking at the questions, but when exam time comes, well ...

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## Amaa'n

Zarvan said:


> Sir you need to calm down and listen. If we would have been interested in cheaper option than we would have went for MPT-76 or Chinese QZB-03 or even look at new Indonesian Rifle SSX. Testing Guns like FN SCAR and Berreta ARX 200 shows we are not looking to go for cheaper stuff. We want the BEST for our BEST.
> @DESERT FIGHTER @kaonalpha @Horus @Khafee


did you consider the possibility of SCAR - H being there in the trails for just being the benchmark?? after all it is said to be the best of the best - as claimed by many --- so if i was the one on team, would have selected one rifle to set the benchmark and rest for the trails --- that how others are going to compete against this ------ this factor is going to rise up even if SCAR - H wins the trail that what is the Cost - benefit ratio ---- it has to Cost- benefit analysis will be conducted to justify the Recommendation of SCAR - H against others ---- if i have million ruppee in my pocket doesn't really mean i go out and buy myself 300k 1911 .45 when clearly a Taurus 1911 for 130k can give me approx same results ----

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## Zarvan

balixd said:


> did you consider the possibility of SCAR - H being there in the trails for just being the benchmark?? after all it is said to be the best of the best - as claimed by many --- so if i was the one on team, would have selected one rifle to set the benchmark and rest for the trails --- that how others are going to compete against this ------ this factor is going to rise up even if SCAR - H wins the trail that what is the Cost - benefit ratio ---- it has to Cost- benefit analysis will be conducted to justify the Recommendation of SCAR - H against others ---- if i have million ruppee in my pocket doesn't really mean i go out and buy myself 300k 1911 .45 when clearly a Taurus 1911 for 130k can give me approx same results ----


Sir 14 companies wanted to come we invited these 5. Sir I know Army Guys they made calculations before starting trials. If cost would have been that much consideration they would have tested MPT-76 and Chinese Gun. I am pretty sure FN SCAR is not their just as a showpiece or benchmark. It's their because we are interested in making this our standard rifle.

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## MastanKhan

Zarvan said:


> Sir you need to calm down and listen. If we would have been interested in cheaper option than we would have went for MPT-76 or Chinese QZB-03 or even look at new Indonesian Rifle SSX. Testing Guns like FN SCAR and Berreta ARX 200 shows we are not looking to go for cheaper stuff. We want the BEST for our BEST.
> @DESERT FIGHTER @kaonalpha @Horus @Khafee



Hi,

Learn--not to mix INEXPENSIVE with CHEAP---. Inexpensive does not mean that it is not a quality product.

You need to understand that for the SCAR you are paying NOT FOR THE RIFLE but for the lifestyle of BELGIUM---.

You are paying for the high hourly wage and the social welfare cost of that nation.

For the Zastava---you are paying for a lower cost of living of the serbians.

GDP per capita for Belgium is around $43,000 / year

GDP per capita for Serbia is around $14,000 / year

What you are talking about is the same thing the British aristocracy never understood for a long time that why the american aristocracy were happy with their Remington---Savage and Winchester hunting rifles rather than the expensive Churchill or the Purdeys or other likewise---.

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## Amaa'n

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Learn--not to mix INEXPENSIVE with CHEAP---. Inexpensive does not mean that it is not a quality product.
> 
> You need to understand that for the SCAR you are paying NOT FOR THE RIFLE but for the lifestyle of BELGIUM---.
> 
> You are paying for the high hourly wage and the social welfare cost of that nation.
> 
> For the Zastava---you are paying for a lower cost of living of the serbians.
> 
> GDP per capita for Belgium is around $43,000 / year
> 
> GDP per capita for Serbia is around $14,000 / year
> 
> What you are talking about is the same thing the British aristocracy never understood for a long time that why the american aristocracy were happy with their Remington---Savage and Winchester hunting rifles rather than the expensive Churchill or the Purdeys or other likewise---.


Sir, let it go, no point arguing over here --- my fight over here was actually not about which rifle is the best but about the thinking that ' since XYZ item is expensive, then somehow it is the best aswell & we MUST buy it, and rest of the weapons here, that are being used by the Armies around world is cheap and not worthy "----

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## Zarvan

balixd said:


> Sir, let it go, no point arguing over here --- my fight over here was actually not about which rifle is the best but about the thinking that ' since XYZ item is expensive, then somehow it is the best aswell & we MUST buy it, and rest of the weapons here, that are being used by the Armies around world is cheap and not worthy "----


Sir question is not about Which Gun !!!! I would be happy if Berreta ARX-200 or CZR 806 are selected. I have issues with AK-103 M21, but my point is if we were looking for cheaper alternatives none of this Gun would have been on the list. Cheaper alternatives would have meant testing MPT-76 or Chinese or Indonesian Gun or some other one . I also know something's in Army they would have calculated everything before started testing. They know the price so what ever Gun passes tests than hardly any more negotiations will take place, and soon deal would be signed. So question is which gun will pass tests ? @MastanKhan

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## proka89

Zarvan said:


> I have issues with AK-103 M21



Would you be kind to share those issues with us?


----------



## RAMPAGE

proka89 said:


> Would you be kind to share those issues with us?


Bro, Please don't mind him. The Army will pick the rifle best suited to us and if that rifle happens to be M21, It'll be fine with me.

One thing's I'd like to say is that the M21 could do with a nice retractable stock.


----------



## proka89

RAMPAGE said:


> One thing's I'd like to say is that the M21 could do with a nice retractable stock.



Reason for that simple stock on Zastava M21 are high requirements in terms of durability by the Serbian army. Acording to our test standards, buttstock must endure 10 throws from 1.5m height on concrete, with full magazine and under barrel grenade launcher.

Zastava M21BS

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## Zarvan

proka89 said:


> Would you be kind to share those issues with us?


First it's already a 25 year old weapon secondly not much advance if compared to G3 or Type 56 currently we are using. Finally even Russia is looking for new Gun mainly AK-12


----------



## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Sir question is not about Which Gun !!!! I would be happy if Berreta ARX-200 or CZR 806 are selected. I have issues with AK-103 M21, but my point is if we were looking for cheaper alternatives none of this Gun would have been on the list. Cheaper alternatives would have meant testing MPT-76 or Chinese or Indonesian Gun or some other one . I also know something's in Army they would have calculated everything before started testing. They know the price so what ever Gun passes tests than hardly any more negotiations will take place, and soon deal would be signed. So question is which gun will pass tests ? @MastanKhan


You need to relax and NOT fanboy for SCAR continuously No one on this forum has any control on the decision making of the Army and they WILL select the firearm based on their calculation! secondly you have a personal grievance with AK103 and Zastava M77. If these were not decent weapons then they would not participate in trials and would have been told to go home! 

Please lets all leave our personal fanboy at home and discuss each rifle on its merit and distinction. 



Zarvan said:


> First it's already a 25 year old weapon secondly not much advance if compared to G3 or Type 56 currently we are using. Finally even Russia is looking for new Gun mainly AK-12


AK 12 is in 5.45x39!!! AK 103 is in 7.62x39!!!


----------



## MastanKhan

Zarvan said:


> Sir question is not about Which Gun !!!! I would be happy if Berreta ARX-200 or CZR 806 are selected. I have issues with AK-103 M21, but my point is if we were looking for cheaper alternatives none of this Gun would have been on the list. Cheaper alternatives would have meant testing MPT-76 or Chinese or Indonesian Gun or some other one . I also know something's in Army they would have calculated everything before started testing. They know the price so what ever Gun passes tests than hardly any more negotiations will take place, and soon deal would be signed. So question is which gun will pass tests ? @MastanKhan



Hi,

What issues do you have ---and have you any kind of experience of owning a firearm other than an AIR RIFLE.

You always want to talk bigger than the britches that you wear---.

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## RAMPAGE

proka89 said:


> Reason for that simple stock on Zastava M21 are high requirements in terms of durability by the Serbian army. Acording to our test standards, buttstock must endure 10 throws from 1.5m height on concrete, with full magazine and under barrel grenade launcher.
> 
> Zastava M21BS


Bro, You need to come up with a (cool ) retractable stock.

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## Zarvan

Can any one get new updates on Gun trials. @notorious_eagle


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## Kompromat

CZ-806 Bren2 in 7.62X39

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## Zarvan

Horus said:


> CZ-806 Bren2 in 7.62X39
> 
> View attachment 299871

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## madmusti



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## django

madmusti said:


>


If the selection is based on looks, this will surely get it, a fine looking weapon indeed and from review I hear is very reliable and robust indeed.


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## That Guy

django said:


> If the selection is based on looks, this will surely get it, a fine looking weapon indeed and from review I hear is very reliable and robust indeed.


It's not in the competition. The MPT wasn't mentioned, nor shown.



madmusti said:


>


Not in the competition.

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## django

That Guy said:


> It's not in the competition. The MPT wasn't mentioned, nor shown.
> 
> 
> Not in the competition.


Yes I was made aware of that, though from all accounts it is a good weapon yet not quite as good as say the SCAR H.


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## PAR 5

I have my doubts that any of the European rifles will be purchased. High price and maintenance are turn-offs for our users (case and point are the FN F2000 and P90 purchased by the PAF in early 2000s, those rifles are now lying in storage for emergency use only). So the main competition may be between Russian AK and the Chinese. Lets hope they decide soon and before the current Army Chief leaves


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## DESERT FIGHTER

PAR 5 said:


> I have my doubts that any of the European rifles will be purchased. High price and maintenance are turn-offs for our users (case and point are the FN F2000 and P90 purchased by the PAF in early 2000s, those rifles are now lying in storage for emergency use only). So the main competition may be between Russian AK and the Chinese. Lets hope they decide soon and before the current Army Chief leaves



Even G3s are "European" ... Chinese aren't even participating ... and it doesn't depend on price .. Had price been a factor most of these rifles wouldn't even have been selected for the tender ... And Pak would have continued with the Chinese Type series instead!

As for maintenance.. Even G3 requires maintenance .. And so does every other rifle .. Apart from maybe a Kalashnikov ! And that isn't an issue when you are choosing a rifle to equip almost a million men professional military... And producing it under license..


That's all nonsense .. F2000 still remains PAFs standard rifle .. While the army and navy guys have moved to M series and ARs.



django said:


> Yes I was made aware of that, though from all accounts it is a good weapon yet not quite as good as say the SCAR H.



And I doubt the modified M77 being pushed by Serbs will be selected either... It kicks like a mule... Recently fired it (belonging to a friend)... Solid rifle but a pain in the arse.

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## PAR 5

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Even G3s are "European" ... Chinese aren't even participating ... and it doesn't depend on price .. Had price been a factor most of these rifles wouldn't even have been selected for the tender ... And Pak would have continued with the Chinese Type series instead!
> 
> As for maintenance.. Even G3 requires maintenance .. And so does every other rifle .. Apart from maybe a Kalashnikov ! And that isn't an issue when you are choosing a rifle to equip almost a million men professional military... And producing it under license..
> 
> 
> That's all nonsense .. F2000 still remains PAFs standard rifle .. While the army and navy guys have moved to M series and ARs.
> 
> 
> 
> And I doubt the modified M77 being pushed by Serbs will be selected either... It kicks like a mule... Recently fired it (belonging to a friend)... Solid rifle but a pain in the arse.



Thanks for your personal view. Instead of arguing (that I am not very fond of especially with online goofs) let us wait until such time a rifle is chosen.


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## ConcealCarry

You are talking to the person who wants minimum 3 squadrons of every type of plane for every arm of military. People put too much emphasis on the gun and forget that it's the bullet which kills. Experts argue that they would prefer a $100 gun with a $500 scope rather than a $500 gun with a $ 100 scope. If we can afford, we should get (preferably make in house) lighter, reliable and accurate guns for the special and strike forces but it does not make sense to spend 3 grand on a single unit, product of multiplication grows quite large quite quickly and difficult to digest. 




MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Learn--not to mix INEXPENSIVE with CHEAP---. Inexpensive does not mean that it is not a quality product.
> 
> You need to understand that for the SCAR you are paying NOT FOR THE RIFLE but for the lifestyle of BELGIUM---.
> 
> You are paying for the high hourly wage and the social welfare cost of that nation.
> 
> For the Zastava---you are paying for a lower cost of living of the serbians.
> 
> GDP per capita for Belgium is around $43,000 / year
> 
> GDP per capita for Serbia is around $14,000 / year
> 
> What you are talking about is the same thing the British aristocracy never understood for a long time that why the american aristocracy were happy with their Remington---Savage and Winchester hunting rifles rather than the expensive Churchill or the Purdeys or other likewise---.


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## PAR 5

ConcealCarry said:


> You are talking to the person who wants minimum 3 squadrons of every type of plane for every arm of military. People put too much emphasis on the gun and forget that it's the bullet which kills. Experts argue that they would prefer a $100 gun with a $500 scope rather than a $500 gun with a $ 100 scope. If we can afford, we should get (preferably make in house) lighter, reliable and accurate guns for the special and strike forces but it does not make sense to spend 3 grand on a single unit, product of multiplication grows quite large quite quickly and difficult to digest.



The saddest part of this entire exercise is the failure of POF to come up with a locally made rifle for the Pakistan Armed Forces. Without having unity in a service rifle brand our armed forces have ended up with a Hodge Podge of all kinds of rifles.


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## Zarvan

PAR 5 said:


> I have my doubts that any of the European rifles will be purchased. High price and maintenance are turn-offs for our users (case and point are the FN F2000 and P90 purchased by the PAF in early 2000s, those rifles are now lying in storage for emergency use only). So the main competition may be between Russian AK and the Chinese. Lets hope they decide soon and before the current Army Chief leaves


FN-2000 and P-90 are being extensively used by SSW in Tribal areas. Now as for Gun pretty much all contenders are European. I know Pakistan Army they would have not invited FN SCAR or Beretta ARX-200 if cost would have been a issue. Finally summer trials are going and hope we would hear about the winner soon.



ConcealCarry said:


> You are talking to the person who wants minimum 3 squadrons of every type of plane for every arm of military. People put too much emphasis on the gun and forget that it's the bullet which kills. Experts argue that they would prefer a $100 gun with a $500 scope rather than a $500 gun with a $ 100 scope. If we can afford, we should get (preferably make in house) lighter, reliable and accurate guns for the special and strike forces but it does not make sense to spend 3 grand on a single unit, product of multiplication grows quite large quite quickly and difficult to digest.


Sir for your information 14 companies wanted to come. Still we went only for one of the most expensive ones. We didn't invited our brother Turkey with its latest Gun. As for three squadrons. Sir we are looking for a third 4.5th Generation platform and soon you would hear about it on media.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

PAR 5 said:


> Thanks for your personal view. Instead of arguing (that I am not very fond of especially with online goofs) let us wait until such time a rifle is chosen.



Neither am I .. But in your case .. Had to oblige.

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## Zarvan

PAR 5 said:


> The saddest part of this entire exercise is the failure of POF to come up with a locally made rifle for the Pakistan Armed Forces. Without having unity in a service rifle brand our armed forces have ended up with a Hodge Podge of all kinds of rifles.


Well it's but even with lot money it's hard to come up with something like FN SCAR.


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## muhammadali233

PAR 5 said:


> The saddest part of this entire exercise is the failure of POF to come up with a locally made rifle for the Pakistan Armed Forces. Without having unity in a service rifle brand our armed forces have ended up with a Hodge Podge of all kinds of rifles.


Failure?Do you even know how much they are doing just to sustain the need of ammo for the troops in war?They have come up with 5 or 6 decent rifles most popular among them is POF eye a corner shot weapon. M-4 carbine or FN Scar or G-36 these are world class weapons to make these kind of stuff you need sufficient budget and expertise.Pak army doesn't want to end up having something similar to INSAS rifle in pursuit of having a Indigenous weapon;Pak armed forces are not taking a risk so off the shelf is the best option.

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## niaz

PAR 5 said:


> The saddest part of this entire exercise is the failure of POF to come up with a locally made rifle for the Pakistan Armed Forces. Without having unity in a service rifle brand our armed forces have ended up with a Hodge Podge of all kinds of rifles.




Think we expect too much from the POF. POF neither has the funds nor the manpower for the R&D to ascertain which bore size of the rifle and / or of the bullet is best suited for the Pak Army. Besides, when there are so many armament manufactures already doing this work; it is far less onerous to select from one of the rifles available off the shelf which best suits your requirement. That is why so many countries are producing their assault rifles under license. Additionally, even in the case of indigenously designed rifles, bullet size is standardised to either NATO or Russian ammunition.

Ideally an army rifle should be simple to manufacture, to maintain and to train the new recruits. It must also be accurate, jam proof and durable. In other words a cheap, rugged reliable fire arm is needed.

AK-47 with all of these qualities has been available for 70 years and it has been employed successfully in Pakistan as well as in the world by terrorists & soldiers alike. POF’s G-3 has also provided 50 years of service to Pak Army soldiers without too many complaints. Therefore dilemma of Pak Army planners must be that unless the new rifle is a substantial improvement over G3 & AK-47, expense of almost $500-million for the 500,000 units is not justifiable. I can therefore understand why it is taking so long.

Benefits of 5.5mm over 7.62 are debatable in the subcontinent scenario. I came across news that after experience in Afghanistan; British SAS were considering switching back to 7.62 mm calibre. I would therefore prefer to stick with the 7.62mm.

Both the G-3 & AK-47 weight about 4.7 KG when fully loaded. This is about one Kilogram more than the US M-16. Based on Cost versus Benefit considerations and nothing else; instead of inducting a brand new rifle; I would rather work on reducing weight of the G3 & of AK-47 thru using more lightweight materials and improving the balance to minimise the recoil kick. When the best is already available, must we change for the sake of the change or simply because India or some other country is doing it?

I never had the chance of using Bullpup rifle or the shotgun; however I came across someone having an American pump action Bullpup shot gun in the Skeet shooting club that I belong. No doubt it is compact but I was told that it is less accurate and has bigger kick than the 28 inch shot gun that I have. If the same applies to the rifle, than Iranian version of Bullpup G-3 is not suitable for Pakistan.

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## madmusti



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## Khafee

Zarvan said:


> FN-2000 and* P-90 *are being extensively used by SSW in Tribal areas. Now as for Gun pretty much all contenders are European. I know Pakistan Army they would have not invited FN SCAR or Beretta ARX-200 if cost would have been a issue. Finally summer trials are going and hope we would hear about the winner soon.
> 
> 
> Sir for your information 14 companies wanted to come. Still we went only for one of the most expensive ones. We didn't invited our brother Turkey with its latest Gun. As for three squadrons. Sir we are looking for a third 4.5th Generation platform and soon you would hear about it on media.


Bro are you sure about the P90?


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## PAR 5

niaz said:


> Think we expect too much from the POF. POF neither has the funds nor the manpower for the R&D to ascertain which bore size of the rifle and / or of the bullet is best suited for the Pak Army. Besides, when there are so many armament manufactures already doing this work; it is far less onerous to select from one of the rifles available off the shelf which best suits your requirement. That is why so many countries are producing their assault rifles under license. Additionally, even in the case of indigenously designed rifles, bullet size is standardised to either NATO or Russian ammunition.
> 
> Ideally an army rifle should be simple to manufacture, to maintain and to train the new recruits. It must also be accurate, jam proof and durable. In other words a cheap, rugged reliable fire arm is needed.
> 
> AK-47 with all of these qualities has been available for 70 years and it has been employed successfully in Pakistan as well as in the world by terrorists & soldiers alike. POF’s G-3 has also provided 50 years of service to Pak Army soldiers without too many complaints. Therefore dilemma of Pak Army planners must be that unless the new rifle is a substantial improvement over G3 & AK-47, expense of almost $500-million for the 500,000 units is not justifiable. I can therefore understand why it is taking so long.
> 
> Benefits of 5.5mm over 7.62 are debatable in the subcontinent scenario. I came across news that after experience in Afghanistan; British SAS were considering switching back to 7.62 mm calibre. I would therefore prefer to stick with the 7.62mm.
> 
> Both the G-3 & AK-47 weight about 4.7 KG when fully loaded. This is about one Kilogram more than the US M-16. Based on Cost versus Benefit considerations and nothing else; instead of inducting a brand new rifle; I would rather work on reducing weight of the G3 & of AK-47 thru using more lightweight materials and improving the balance to minimise the recoil kick. When the best is already available, must we change for the sake of the change or simply because India or some other country is doing it?
> 
> I never had the chance of using Bullpup rifle or the shotgun; however I came across someone having an American pump action Bullpup shot gun in the Skeet shooting club that I belong. No doubt it is compact but I was told that it is less accurate and has bigger kick than the 28 inch shot gun that I have. If the same applies to the rifle, than Iranian version of Bullpup G-3 is not suitable for Pakistan.



Your first two sentences pretty much define what POF is doing. We are stuck to the whims of foreign manufacturers for as long as POF fails at the task of designing and developing a locally made rifle.


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## Zarvan

Khafee said:


> Bro are you sure about the P90?


Sorry PS-90 and yes I am sure about it.

@balixd Where are you Sir ? I am getting crazy here !!!! Now some friends are telling that HK-417 has also joined the competition and some are also reporting MPT-76 @Sulman Badshah @Tipu7 @DESERT FIGHTER

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## That Guy

PAR 5 said:


> I have my doubts that any of the European rifles will be purchased. High price and maintenance are turn-offs for our users (case and point are the FN F2000 and P90 purchased by the PAF in early 2000s, those rifles are now lying in storage for emergency use only). So the main competition may be between Russian AK and the Chinese. Lets hope they decide soon and before the current Army Chief leaves


Pakistan is getting rid of it's AKs, thus the multi-caliber competition, and the Chinese aren't even in the competition.

Your comparison is flawed. The FN F2000 and P90s were bought off the shelf, while this competition is for local manufacturing and ToT, which would significantly lower the price of the rifles. Even then, the Bren is a pretty cheap rifle compared to most of the rifles in the competition, except maybe the AK being offered, and the Zastava M21.

The decision will probably be made before Gen Shareef retires, as it would be consolidate his legacy of pushing PA towards modernization.

Likely, the SCAR will win the competition, but I would rather the ARX wins.

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## Amaa'n

Zarvan said:


> Sorry PS-90 and yes I am sure about it.
> 
> @balixd Where are you Sir ? I am getting crazy here !!!! Now some friends are telling that HK-417 has also joined the competition and some are also reporting MPT-76 @Sulman Badshah @Tipu7 @DESERT FIGHTER


i don't know about such development, but I have not seen any evidence to support this, list is still unchanged ----- unless your friends can provide any evidence on this

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## Zarvan

balixd said:


> i don't know about such development, but I have not seen any evidence to support this, list is still unchanged ----- unless your friends can provide any evidence on this


Thanks for the information that is what I am saying to them


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## aliaselin

Why don't Pakistan shift 7.62mm rife to 5.56mm， which is NATO standard and used more widely by other countries.


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## Path-Finder

aliaselin said:


> Why don't Pakistan shift 7.62mm rife to 5.56mm， which is NATO standard and used more widely by other countries.


the reason for sticking with 7.62 is the doctrine if the enemy is shot then the enemy should not get up again. 5.56 works on different doctrine.

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## aliaselin

Path-Finder said:


> the reason for sticking with 7.62 is the doctrine if the enemy is shot then the enemy should not get up again. 5.56 works on different doctrine.


5.56 mm has better penetration ability, so would be better if the enemy is well protected.


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## MastanKhan

aliaselin said:


> Why don't Pakistan shift 7.62mm rife to 5.56mm， which is NATO standard and used more widely by other countries.



Hi,

During this terrorist issue---we found out that the range between the combatants and mitlitary maybe over 300 yards---mountain top to mountain top---mountain top to valleys or otherwise.

Secondly---lots of enemy combatants are high on hashish or opium or other stuff---. They need to be put down with a larger bore round. It may take 10 rounds of 5.56 to take down an enraged enemy compared to one round from the .308

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## aliaselin

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> During this terrorist issue---we found out that the range between the combatants and mitlitary maybe over 300 yards---mountain top to mountain top---mountain top to valleys or otherwise.
> 
> Secondly---lots of enemy combatants are high on hashish or opium or other stuff---. They need to be put down with a larger bore round. It may take 10 rounds of 5.56 to take down an enraged enemy compared to one round from the .308


Firstly, it is impossible that it take 10:1 ratio for 5.56mm compared to 7.62mm.secondly, 7.62mm may be better for anti-terrorist work in mountain area, but the major duty of Pakistan army is against Indian in Pujab and Sindh boundary， and these areas are more suitable for 5.56mm gun


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## Zarvan

aliaselin said:


> Firstly, it is impossible that it take 10:1 ratio for 5.56mm compared to 7.62mm.secondly, 7.62mm may be better for anti-terrorist work in mountain area, but the major duty of Pakistan army is against Indian in Pujab and Sindh boundary， and these areas are more suitable for 5.56mm gun


No !!! Even in those 7.62 performs better. We need powerful caliber to hit enemy at far distances and 7.62 performs best.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

aliaselin said:


> Firstly, it is impossible that it take 10:1 ratio for 5.56mm compared to 7.62mm.secondly, 7.62mm may be better for anti-terrorist work in mountain area, but the major duty of Pakistan army is against Indian in Pujab and Sindh boundary， and these areas are more suitable for 5.56mm gun


In a war the range matters a lot .. More than the WOT ... We need a larger round with more stopping power (in a war the enemy will be wearing Kevlar too).. Can a 5.56 go through an armoured plate at 500-700 or more range? Nope.

The 5.56 WWs develop to injure the enemy .. Not kill... It's useless for us .. Except for the special forces...

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## aliaselin

Zarvan said:


> No !!! Even in those 7.62 performs better. We need powerful caliber to hit enemy at far distances and 7.62 performs best.


In your world， your Pakistan and Turkey are better than US, Russianand China


DESERT FIGHTER said:


> In a war the range matters a lot .. More than the WOT ... We need a larger round with more stopping power (in a war the enemy will be wearing Kevlar too).. Can a 5.56 go through an armoured plate at 500-700 or more range? Nope.
> 
> The 5.56 WWs develop to injure the enemy .. Not kill... It's useless for us .. Except for the special forces...


Unfortunately, 5.56 mm works better against an enemy wearing Kevlar compared to 7.62 mm


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## Zarvan

aliaselin said:


> In your world， your Pakistan and Turkey are better than US, Russianand China
> 
> Unfortunately, 5.56 mm works better against an enemy wearing Kevlar compared to 7.62 mm


USA and NATO are not happy with 5.56 performance in Afghanistan and Iraq that is why many European countries and USA are switching back to 7.62


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## DESERT FIGHTER

aliaselin said:


> In your world， your Pakistan and Turkey are better than US, Russianand China
> 
> Unfortunately, 5.56 mm works better against an enemy wearing Kevlar compared to 7.62 mm



No wonder NATO is considering discarding the 5.56 ..

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## Path-Finder

aliaselin said:


> Firstly, it is impossible that it take 10:1 ratio for 5.56mm compared to 7.62mm.secondly, 7.62mm may be better for anti-terrorist work in mountain area, but the major duty of Pakistan army is against Indian in Pujab and Sindh boundary， and these areas are more suitable for 5.56mm gun


During the Iraq war M14's made a comeback as the 5.56 was not sufficient in stopping power so 7.62 rifle was re issued briefly, Remington the people behind 5.56 cartridge then went to work and made a 6.8 cartridge after hearing the complaints. in Our scenario 7.62x39/51 has proven to be the winning formula. a lot of wildcat cartridges are coming out like 6.5 Grendel 6.8SPC as a intermediate between 5.56 & 7.62


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## Zarvan

Our beloved FN SCAR at Firing Range




ARX-200 also doing good
Photo credit : @Sulman Badshah 
@Horus @Tipu7 @balixd

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## Sulman Badshah



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## RAMPAGE

Sulman Badshah said:


> View attachment 300685
> View attachment 300686


Any updates? What about the CZ bren? Still in the competition?


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## Path-Finder

What about Zastava?


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## Zarvan

Sulman Badshah said:


> View attachment 300685
> View attachment 300686


Nice but my vote is still for FN SCAR. Still if budget is good we can give ARX-200 to Police along with training from Army specially from SSG and LCB units


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## ZedZeeshan

Zarvan said:


> Nice but my vote is still for FN SCAR. Still if budget is good we can give ARX-200 to Police along with training from Army specially from SSG and LCB units


so it means that allG 3 will be replaced by infantry..??


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## Zarvan

ZedZeeshan said:


> so it means that allG 3 will be replaced by infantry..??


Yes G3 will soon Rest in Peace


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## Sulman Badshah

RAMPAGE said:


> Any updates? What about the CZ bren? Still in the competition?


i don't have latest update .. but few days ago heard that bren was also in competition

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## django

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> During this terrorist issue---we found out that the range between the combatants and mitlitary maybe over 300 yards---mountain top to mountain top---mountain top to valleys or otherwise.
> 
> Secondly---lots of enemy combatants are high on hashish or opium or other stuff---. They need to be put down with a larger bore round. It may take 10 rounds of 5.56 to take down an enraged enemy compared to one round from the .308


Good point MK ,the US experienced many such experiences in Iraq where their troops were unable to drop Iraqi insurgents with multiple hits from M4, in fact I have read of accounts where US troops discarded their M4s and used AK-47 instead.kudos

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## aliaselin

Path-Finder said:


> During the Iraq war M14's made a comeback as the 5.56 was not sufficient in stopping power so 7.62 rifle was re issued briefly, Remington the people behind 5.56 cartridge then went to work and made a 6.8 cartridge after hearing the complaints. in Our scenario 7.62x39/51 has proven to be the winning formula. a lot of wildcat cartridges are coming out like 6.5 Grendel 6.8SPC as a intermediate between 5.56 & 7.62


M14 only works as supplemenary rife in Iraqi war and for evey squad there is only one M14 while all the other rife are M16/M4



django said:


> Good point MK ,the US experienced many such experiences in Iraq where their troops were unable to drop Iraqi insurgents with multiple hits from M4, in fact I have read of accounts where US troops discarded their M4s and used AK-47 instead.kudos


They discard M14 not M4. During the Vietnam war, they changed from 7.62mm M14 to 5.52mm M16


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## Zarvan

aliaselin said:


> M14 only works as supplemenary rife in Iraqi war and for evey squad there is only one M14 while all the other rife are M16/M4
> 
> 
> They discard M14 not M4. During the Vietnam war, they changed from 7.62mm M14 to 5.52mm M16


Yes but now they are switching back to 7.62 Calliber . Most European countries like Italy and Germany and other countries are also coming up with 7.62 caliber weapons


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## django

aliaselin said:


> M14 only works as supplemenary rife in Iraqi war and for evey squad there is only one M14 while all the other rife are M16/M4
> 
> 
> They discard M14 not M4. During the Vietnam war, they changed from 7.62mm M14 to 5.52mm M16


I distinctly remember it being mentioned as M4 carbine.kudos


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## aliaselin

django said:


> I distinctly remember it being mentioned as M4 carbine.kudos


M4 was produced after 1984, So your story can not be true


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## Max Pain

aliaselin said:


> M4 was produced after 1984, So your story can not be true


M4 inherits from M16 that was extensively used in Vietnam


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## django

aliaselin said:


> M4 was produced after 1984, So your story can not be true


War in Iraq 2003-2009, hmmmm where is the contradiction.

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## RAMPAGE

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> 
> *Secondly---lots of enemy combatants are high on hashish or opium or other stuff-*--. They need to be put down with a larger bore round. It may take 10 rounds of 5.56 to take down an enraged enemy compared to one round from the .308



Who the fuckk told you that?


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## django

RAMPAGE said:


> Who the fuckk told you that?


I have also heard accounts of this being quite frequent according to US miltary soldeirs.


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## RAMPAGE

django said:


> I have also heard accounts of this being quite frequent according to US miltary soldeirs.


BS! Hash makes you a coward. Who wants to fight when they're high on Charas?

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## Amaa'n

RAMPAGE said:


> BS! Hash makes you a coward. Who wants to fight when they're high on Charas?


It is indeed true my friend, Talis use opium orndrugs extracted from it to stay alert and keep on fighting with out sleep... Not all drugs make you dizzy, some local drugs actually makes you more active

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## django

RAMPAGE said:


> BS! Hash makes you a coward. Who wants to fight when they're high on Charas?


I have no idea, as I have never smoked the damn stuff, all I was saying I have heard of these stories from journalists and soldiers who participated in the conflict.

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## Amaa'n

django said:


> I distinctly remember it being mentioned as M4 carbine.kudos





aliaselin said:


> M4 was produced after 1984, So your story can not be true


Both of you are confusing CAR 15 commando and XM series with Colt M4......ColtnAssault Rifle was the first carbine version of M16 ...,..colt XM was the same......

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## django

balixd said:


> Both of you are confusing CAR 15 commando and XM series with Colt M4......ColtnAssault Rifle was the first carbine version of M16 ...,..colt XM was the same......


I am not confused I am talking about the performance of M4 in 2003 Iraq war.


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## Amaa'n

django said:


> I am not confused I am talking about the performance of M4 in 2003 Iraq war.


I was refering to the talk about m4 in Vietnam.....

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## django

balixd said:


> I was refering to the talk about m4 in Vietnam.....


That is impossibe as it was devolped in 80s, they use colt commando in Nam


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## MastanKhan

RAMPAGE said:


> Who the fuckk told you that?




Hi,

This is very very old news---drugs have been used to numb the fear and senses and to calm the nerves.

Almost all the suicide bombers are high on opiates---.

Have you even heard the word ASSASIN----did you know where the word came from---Hashashin---the users of hashish----.

That is why there are incidences of the terrs not going down even though shot multiple times in the body by smaller caliber ammo----because in their drug induced stage---they don't feel the pain and effect of a small bullet strike---.

I don't know if you can recall recommendations for a head shot for the suicide bombers.

That is also the reason that we say that the terrs are fearless---they keep coming---because they are like zombies.

You should join a library.

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## Irfan Baloch

balixd said:


> It is indeed true my friend, Talis use opium orndrugs extracted from it to stay alert and keep on fighting with out sleep... Not all drugs make you dizzy, some local drugs actually makes you more active


medical students use them to for prolonged hours of study during their exam preparations



Lost-Soul said:


> what is the difference between carbine and rifle (asualt rifle).


length of the barrel .is the main difference
for more details look up the web.

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## django

Irfan Baloch said:


> medical students use them to for prolonged hours of study during their exam preparations


Modafinil is used by students to maintain concentration, and I have heard it is being used by US airforce pilots.



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> My boy---time to come to pappy to learn something new.
> 
> This is very very old news---drugs have been used to numb the fear and senses and to calm the nerves.
> 
> Almost all the suicide bombers are high on opiates---.
> 
> Have you even heard the word ASSASIN----did you know where the word came from---Hashashin---the users of hashish----.
> 
> That is why there are incidences of the terrs not going down even though shot multiple times in the body by smaller caliber ammo----because in their drug induced stage---they don't feel the pain and effect of a small bullet strike---.
> 
> I don't know if you can recall recommendations for a head shot for the suicide bombers.
> 
> That is also the reason that we say that the terrs are fearless---they keep coming---because they are like zombies.
> 
> You should join a library.


Excellent rebuttal @MastanKhan .kudos

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## All-Green

A bit off topic but cant resist discussing the Hashashin who were also present at the time of crusades and carried out a lot of high profile assassinations.
The Assassins or the Hashashin are the forefathers of our modern TTP outfit in every way...
The Hashashin were high on drugs and were shown the pleasure of heaven via beautiful gardens, seductive women, drinks, food and many other luxuries. They were convinced of being a holy order.
However, you had to be a devoted killer to be able to enjoy this heaven, otherwise exile without the drugs and other things was unbearable.
This was all created via heavy investment but the return on Investment was quite good as the Hashashin were the most feared assassins of their time. Twice their agents infiltrated Salahuddin's bedchambers as a warning from the order to discourage action against them and in this they succeeded as they were considered a hornet's nest which was to be left alone.
Moral of this story, drugs can also be deadly for people other than the drug users....

Coming to TTP...
The use of drugs in ample dosage coupled with active indoctrination/motivational sessions has been carried out by nearly all of these Terrorists outfits.
There is a reason you see so many suicide bombers... the poor kids are drugged and driven out of their senses so that they do not feel fear and shock like a normal person.
When we see the youth abandoning their families to join the fighters, it is a combination of peer pressure, indoctrination and drugs.
Unfortunately most of the youth are sacrificed by the veteran terrorists who treat them as cannon fodder. These youth are used in suicide attacks via bombings on unsuspecting targets or in active combat theater via frontal attacks on the military to help their brave commanders escape

A most unfortunate reality of this war.

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## MastanKhan

Lost-Soul said:


> what is the difference between carbine and rifle (asualt rifle).



Hi,

I would say that something with a 20" or shorter barrel would be called a carbine---if there is an option for a longer barrel in that model.

Basically---carbines are shorter versions of long rifles.

Supposedly---a rifle has to have a long barrel model for its shorter barrel to be called carbine---so when someone says---I got a carbine---it would mean that there is another model available with a longer barrel.

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## Amaa'n

Irfan Baloch said:


> medical students use them to for prolonged hours of study during their exam preparations
> 
> 
> length of the barrel .is the main difference
> for more details look up the web.


Back in the days when i was working on Doors(clubs) in UK, my colleagues use to take Speed for staying Proactive and stay focused for long hours, even in fights if they could get punched or get a glass smashed in their head they would still stay frosty......i never took those pills nor drank but i witnessed it all first hand..........



django said:


> That is impossibe as it was devolped in 80s, they use colt commando in Nam


My bad,perhaps i misunderstood the statment.......sometime my head is not in place

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## Zarvan

I thought this thread was for discussing Pakistan's future assault rifle but instead Taliban and all other stuff being discussed here.

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## Sulman Badshah

G3A3 Accuracy at 600 meters

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## ali_raza

slowly becoming a drug thread lol


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## Zarvan

Sulman Badshah said:


> G3A3 Accuracy at 600 meters
> View attachment 300937


Sir we are over G3 when you post these things I get a heart attack. I feel that we may stick to G3

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## TheNoob

So did the army select a gun yet?

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## Path-Finder

Sulman Badshah said:


> G3A3 Accuracy at 600 meters
> View attachment 300937


WoW that is very Bad!


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## Zarvan

TheNoob said:


> So did the army select a gun yet?


Trials are going on. I think summer and desert trials are taking place right now.

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## RAMPAGE

@Icarus

Do you think that the Army could benifit from a standard rifle that can also act as a DMR? Because that would put the 7.62x39 mm at a disadvantage.


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## Zarvan

RAMPAGE said:


> @Icarus
> 
> Do you think that the Army could benifit from a standard rifle that can also act as a DMR? Because that would put the 7.62x39 mm at a disadvantage.



I think if FN SCAR is selected than FN SCAR H and FN SCAR L and DMR version will be produced in Pakistan.


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## Irfan Baloch

balixd said:


> Back in the days when i was working on Doors(clubs) in UK, my colleagues use to take Speed for staying Proactive and stay focused for long hours, even in fights if they could get punched or get a glass smashed in their head they would still stay frosty......i never took those pills nor drank but i witnessed it all first hand..........
> 
> 
> My bad,perhaps i misunderstood the statment.......sometime my head is not in place


I did door work for 7 years
I only took redbull
I forgot names of things some punters used but they were easy to spot. Angel dust




Zarvan said:


> I think if FN SCAR is selected than FN SCAR H and FN SCAR L and DMR version will be produced in Pakistan.


Indians haven't tried to trash this deal yet
I am surprised

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## Zarvan

Irfan Baloch said:


> I did door work for 7 years
> I only took redbull
> I forgot names of things some punters used but they were easy to spot
> 
> 
> Indians haven't tried to trash this deal yet
> I am surprised


They will after we announce the winner I mean the Gun which we select


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## Thorough Pro

exactly my thoughts


Path-Finder said:


> WoW that is very Bad!

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## Wolfhound

Path-Finder said:


> WoW that is very Bad!


That is actually pretty good from a distance of almost 600 meters, considering its from a pretty old rifle and that too without the use of any kind of optics.



MastanKhan said:


> Have you even heard the word ASSASIN----did you know where the word came from---Hashashin---the users of hashish----./QUOTE].


Actually your wrong in this point, the name 'Hashshashin's' came from being named after its founder 'hassan bin saba'(an ismaili who founded the group) and was not formed because the users were high on hashish

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## Zarvan

Guys today Italian foreign minister met Army Chief and Yesterday it was Italian Army Chief who met Raheel Sharif. Well Why I'm having a feeling that Berreta ARX-200 will be selected as Pakistan's new ASSAULT Rifle.
@Icarus @balixd @kaonalpha @F.O.X @Horus

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## kaonalpha

Zarvan said:


> Guys today Italian foreign minister met Army Chief and Yesterday it was Italian Army Chief who met Raheel Sharif. Well Why I'm having a feeling that Berreta ARX-200 will be selected as Pakistan's new ASSAULT Rifle.
> @Icarus @balixd @kaonalpha @F.O.X @Horus


It will at least take a decade to actually start of the production. Mutual meetings of interest are very common. Allah willing you shall hear good news byet next year.

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## RAMPAGE

kaonalpha said:


> It will at least take a decade to actually start of the production. Mutual meetings of interest are very common. Allah willing you shall hear good news byet next year.


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## Thorough Pro

That is why I am not in favour of PA adopting a smaller caliber rifle




MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> This is very very old news---drugs have been used to numb the fear and senses and to calm the nerves.
> 
> Almost all the suicide bombers are high on opiates---.
> 
> Have you even heard the word ASSASIN----did you know where the word came from---Hashashin---the users of hashish----.
> 
> That is why there are incidences of the terrs not going down even though shot multiple times in the body by smaller caliber ammo----because in their drug induced stage---they don't feel the pain and effect of a small bullet strike---.
> 
> I don't know if you can recall recommendations for a head shot for the suicide bombers.
> 
> That is also the reason that we say that the terrs are fearless---they keep coming---because they are like zombies.
> 
> You should join a library.



Did you just Insulted COAS?



Zarvan said:


> Guys today Italian foreign minister met Army Chief and Yesterday it was Italian Army Chief who met Raheel Sharif. Well Why I'm having a feeling that Berreta ARX-200 will be selected as Pakistan's new ASSAULT Rifle.
> @Icarus @balixd @kaonalpha @F.O.X @Horus


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## Quwa

kaonalpha said:


> It will at least take a decade to actually start of the production. Mutual meetings of interest are very common. Allah willing you shall hear good news byet next year.


I take it they'll just order batches for a few years from the vendor while POF goes through upgrades and re-tooling, after which POF could begin producing the new rifle?

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## Zarvan

Thorough Pro said:


> That is why I am not in favour of PA adopting a smaller caliber rifle
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did you just Insulted COAS?


How on earth you think I insulted Army Chief ?


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## Zarvan

*FN Herstal SCAR 17s Review*





Since the announcement of the *SCAR *(Special Operations Forces [SOF] Combat Assault Rifle) a few years ago, the 21st century assault rifle has had a huge following. The *SCAR *program has been adopted by the U.S. military to supplement their existing needs and to anticipate future demands required from our military’s assault rifles. The *SCAR *has received a wide appreciation for those soldiers who were fortunate enough to be issued one, which naturally transferred into a large civilian demand for *FN Herstal*’s newest assault rifle.

The *SCAR *16s (MK 16 SCAR-L MOD 0 being the military version), has had a warm reception in the civilian market. From the time it’s been available to civilians, shooters have raved about its reliability, out of the box features, accuracy and ease of use. The only thing the civilian *SCAR *was lacking was a .308 version. Since there was an*MK 17 SCAR-H* available for the military, everyone assumed (and eventually were correct) that the version would transfer over to the civilian sector.

I remember talking to an RSR representative in 2009 about if/when the *SCAR 17s* would be available; his exact response was, “don’t hold your breath.” Late last year, those waiting could finally exhale—*FNH* started shipping out *SCAR17s* in limited quantities, creating a collective rejoice and extreme demand for those wanting the extended range and “oomph” of the .308 cartridge on the *SCAR *platform. Gunblog.com has been privileged enough to have had a *FNH* *SCAR 17s* for a few months to review—*FN *Herstal’s new hard hitting battle rifle was everything we were expecting from anticipation about the performance to expectation about the price.

*Click READ MORE for the rest of the article with Pics and Video*





*CONSTRUCTION/ERGONOMICS*

The *SCAR’s* function was designed to incorporate the instinctive operation that a soldier would have from operating an *M4/M1*6, minimizing the time needed to train/transition to the new platform, while incorporating updated ergonomic attributes, which *FN Herstal* accomplished exceptionally well. In almost all aspects, the*SCAR 17s* is identical to its predecessor, the *SCAR 16s*; the only essential difference is the weight and magazine (cartridge). While the *SCAR 17s* provides updated ergonomics, robust materials, and an ease of function, there were still some small annoyances I experienced. However, those seldom irritations are overshadowed by the exceptional quality and function the *FNH* *SCAR 17s* delivers.

Ergonomically, the *SCAR 17s* is designed to be a 21st century assault rifle. The *SCAR 17s* keeps similar facets of the *M4* or *AR15* such as the pistol grip, bolt release, magazine release, and safety controls, but makes some subtle changes to those familiar features. The magazine release has a larger width and height and is protected by a surrounding raised edge allowing a user to operate it easier in a hurry while simultaneously preventing an accidental actuation. The safety lever is ambidextrous and looks and feels just like *AR-15s* safety except for the actual operation of the safety, which was one of my annoyances that I mentioned earlier.

The safety lever has the normal off position but has a short throw to 45 degrees rather than the familiar 90 degrees to that of an AR15. While I understand the concept, a shorter throw means faster actuation; also, the*SCAR 17s* is basically a ported over civilian version of the *MK 17 SCAR–H* which would have a 90 degree throw for fully-automatic. However, I found that the instinctive “feel” of the safety wasn’t there as I’m used to. With an*AR15*, I can use my thumb to immediately know if I was on safe or fire being that there was a distinctive difference on how the safety felt (vertical vs. horizontal) all while maintaining my sight picture. With the *SCAR*that touch recognition was somewhat less present, resulting in me sometimes having to take my eye off the target and visually inspecting the safety to ensure it was engaged or disengaged.





I realize with training, this positive engagement recognition of the safety by touch would improve (which it did over time) and a shooter should always mentally know if he or she is on safe or fire; but being as it may, I feel I prefer the AR-15’s 90 degree fire position as opposed to the 45 degree position of the *SCAR*. I was lucky enough to have tried *the Magpul SSG Selector Set *for the *SCAR *at *SHOT SHOW* this year, and I can say that it’s a definite improvement. The drop in accessory from Magpul allows a shooter to get that positive feel of the engagement of the safety. Even though the safety is still 45 degree throw, it was easier for me to know if I was on safe or fire by touch. If I were to own a *SCAR*, that would be the first and foremost accessory I would add being that it would help negate my concerns regarding the *SCAR 17s*’s safety.

*FN Herstal*’s *SCAR17s* is extremely easy to operate; the controls are where they need to be to instinctively use them for left or right handed shooters. Along with modularity, the other requirement for a 21st century rifle is the option of ambidexterity which the *SCAR 17s* provides. Shooters should have no problems firing from their primary or reaction (weak) sides. As previously mentioned the safety is on both sides of the platform and the reciprocating (another annoyance to be mentioned alter) charging handle can be switched to either side of the rifle and is placed in the ideal position on top of the upper receiver near the support hand. The charging handle is also used as a forward assist which is almost not needed (also to be elaborated on later). The bolt release/catch is not ambidextrous, which shouldn’t be that significant of a drawback considering left handed shooters are accustomed to or trained with a similar configuration with *AR-15s*—noting the suggested retail price of the *SCAR 17s* ($3,349), I would assume most people looking at buying a *SCAR 17s* would have shot AR-15s before being that the *SCAR 17s* should not be considered as an entry level rifle.

The adjustable and foldable buttstock lends itself well to the overall shooting comfort and portability of the*SCAR 17s*. The stock is telescopic, adjusting to 6 different lengths while the comb has only 2 height adjustments. While adjusting the comb by pressing the button to release the comb lock and altering the height, I got a finger pinched in between the polymer section and the upper receiver, resulting in a nice gash. Needless to say it only happened once; I learned my lesson to keep my fingers clear between the receiver and the adjustable comb when actually adjusting it. The stock easily folds over the right side of the rifle by pressing a release button on the left hand side and locking into the shell deflector. While folded, the *SCAR 17s* still proves adequate clearance for spent shell casings to egress the chamber without obstruction.





The iron sights provided with the *FNH* *SCAR 17s* are excellent, in regards to both quality and function. The dual aperture rear sight has a very low profile when folded which should give enough clearance for most optics’ eyepieces to clear it depending on the mount one uses; the *SCAR 17s*’s front sight folds as well. The front and rear sights are both adjustable for windage and elevation, which makes for one of the best factory iron sight systems I’ve seen to date. The hooded front sight’s windage can be adjusted by using a TORX 25 wrench and the elevation by using a standard *M16/AR-15 A2* sight tool. The rear sight is much easier to adjust—there is a windage dial on each side of the rear sight, and each increment on the dial is numbered from 1 to 6. Elevation is adjusted by turning the base, or drum, of the sight post, which is also numbered. There’s a reason why the front sight takes tools to be adjusted while the rear sight’s adjustments are effortless, and it’s the basis of how the*SCAR’s* sighting system is designed to work.

The *SCAR 17s* rear sight is zeroed out of the factory for 25/300 meters with the elevation drum set to 3. Its recommended by *FNH* to zero the rifle for yourself by adjusting the front sight post only, leaving the rear sight with the settings from the factory. This will allow a shooter to only adjust the rear sight to make changes based on the shooting situation or the range of your target. Each click of the rear drum is equal to 1.5 MOA (minute of angle) and there are two clicks per number on the drum, so each number is equal to a 3 MOA adjustment. Although using that math of 3 moa per range adjustment isn’t exactly sniper precise, it’s adequate/accurate enough to use it effectively if needed—I’m sure all the ballistics gurus are calculating a typical .308 drop parallel with the sight adjustments to see if my math is correct.

Using my ballistics calculator, the calculations from *FNH* seem to be correct with a typical 150 grain 7.62×51 zeroed at 300 yards. At 400 yards it’s almost dead on with a 3 MOA elevation change, but that window of accuracy seems to grow the farther you go out. At 500 yards there would be a 36 inch different from a 300 yard zero, while the rear sight would provide only 30 inches of drop compensation. As I said before, it would be good enough, especially for a factory back up iron sight system, to get the job done effectively.





The *SCAR 17s*’s Mil-Spec barrel and aluminum alloy upper receiver are areas that were given equally detailed attention by *FN Herstal*. The cold hammer forged barrel is free floating, 16.25 inches long with a 1:12 twist, features a hard chromed bore and is topped off with a 3 baffle PWS (Primary Weapon Systems) flash hider/compensator. The *SCAR 17s* has a gas regulator located directly below the front sight post and has two positions for suppressed or unsuppressed. The upper receiver is very picatinny generous; completely along the upper receiver and at the 3,6, and 9 o’clock positions underneath, there is enough rail space to attach just about anything one would need. Also, on the receiver are multiple sling attachment points allowing for a variety of slings to be used such as single point slings from the left or right side. Another attachment point runs along the top of the end of the buttstock.





Inside the receiver the *FNH* *SCAR 17s* stays just as robust as it does on the outside. The 7 lug bolt along with its vigorous carrier do an excellent job of getting every round into battery consistently and reliably. The return spring seemed strong and although polymer, the return spring rod doesn’t give any indication that it will break or malfunction easily. In fact, the use of polymer is what leads to my biggest and initial surprise regarding the*SCAR 17s*; its beastly appearance gives a false impression towards its featherlike 8 lb weight. The *FNH* *SCAR 17s*comes with a 20 round magazine which is a propriety design by *FNH* (so no AR10 or .308 PMAGS). I asked*Magpul* at *SHOT SHOW* if they plan on making a magazine for the *SCAR 17s*; all I got from them was a maybe.

With all these outstanding features, minus a couple of personal and minute bothers, lead people to believe the*SCAR 17s*’s performance would be nothing but Ferrari like—those people would be absolutely correct in more ways than just performance. At the range, the *SCAR 17s* is much like a Ferrari—everyone knows or expects it to be great, everyone knows you paid a significant amount of money for it, and everyone is watching you with it.






*RANGE TIME*

Most rifles that come in over the $2,000 dollar mark almost require you to use the most premium super match ammunition available. And while I agree that a weapon system depends on all subsequent aspects of that system in order to work at full potential, ammo being a large part of that dependency, I also feel that if someone pays a significant amount of money for a weapon system, shouldn’t the opposite be true? If I dish out a grip of cash for a firearm, wouldn’t I want it to be able to fire any reasonable ammunition I put thought it? The *SCAR 17s* fulfills both of these expectations at the range. Not only is it utterly joyous to shoot, *FNH*’s *SCAR 17s* will shoot anything you put through it, reliably and accurately.

It almost felt almost dirty, cheap, or even sacrilegious, loading surplus Pakistani 7.62×51 that I had to take off of links and put into the 3,500 dollar carbine; but I figured, “if it’ll shoot this, it’ll shoot anything.” I’ve been holding onto two cans of 200 rounds of the ammo for a while, and I couldn’t think of a better way to blow through all 400 rounds of 7.62×51 in a weekend, so in the *SCAR *it went, and all 400 rounds went out of it without a hiccup. Along with the abundance of Pakistani military surplus ammo the *SCAR *ate up and spat out, there was an additional 1,600 various types of rounds that were fired through it during the 2 months I had with it. I have yet to experience failure of any type. I tried tugging the magazine while firing, I dumped magazine after magazine as fast as I could and the *SCAR 17s* proved to be stubbornly resilient against failure, even with the cheapest ammo on the market.





Even with the cheap ammo, the *SCAR 17s* accuracy was outstanding. I was able to hit consistent <2” groups at 100 yards using the *US Optics SN-4S* that we reviewed a couple weeks ago. When using Black Hill 155 grain A-Max match ammunition, I was easily able to narrow that group size. Although my shooting isn’t always sub MOA capable, I’m confident the *SCAR 17s* is. While using that surplus Pakistani ammo, I could effortlessly hit clays from over 200 yards away. Given its modularity in the military, I sincerely hope *FN Herstal* follows its previous trend and brings over kits for the *SCAR *such as a 20” barrel, or the MK20 stocks and other accessories to convert the carbine into a true long range shooter; its outstanding accuracy would make the *SCAR 17s* a prime candidate for an extremely effective *SASS* (Semi Auto Sniper System).

The *SCAR 17s*’s recoil was another pleasant surprise being that it’s hardly noticeable for a .308. The PWS FSC30 compensator does an excellent job of containing the muzzle rise; even with rapid follow up shots the *SCAR 17s*is completely manageable. While shooting it, you still know it’s a .308 though—the concussive blasts are immediately felt from every shot, and from almost every angle. Standing directly behind someone shooting the*SCAR 17s* won’t shield someone from the shock wave coming from it, which proves the effectiveness of the *PS FSC30*. It complements the performance of *SCAR 17s* very well.

*FNH*’s trigger which they put on the *SCAR *is, to say at best, suitable. To tell the truth, I was somewhat disappointed with it. Not that it is flawed in anyway, but for a suggested retail price of almost $3,500 dollars, I would expect a more refined trigger (cue digital flogging). I fully understand that the *SCAR 17s* is a battle rifle, designed to withstand harsh elements and function under adverse conditions; however, I am not in the military anymore; furthermore, I’m not reviewing this rifle for military use—I’m reviewing it for civilians. The trigger is as robust as the rest of the rifle, and again, it is adequate, but it is no match trigger. It does have an extremely clean and consistent break with not too much take up or over-travel; however it does not have as smooth of a draw as I would like, or expect from a rifle in this price range. I would assume the design of the trigger is geared more towards functionality and reliability than comfort considering the *SCAR 17s* was made for soldiers, not range warriors.





The other “complaint” I would say about the *SCAR 17s* is the reciprocating charging handle. Again, I understand why—less moving parts equal a lesser chance of failure. I have to remind myself that the *SCAR *was not necessarily designed for civilian shooters; we are just fortunate enough that *FN Herstal* figured it would be profitable for them to allow us to buy a civilian version, and I’m sincerely glad they did. Even though *FNH*explicitly put in the owner’s manual to not to hold it by the magazine well, I know some shooters will by habit, and some shooters may have a high closed in grip, both which will lead to bruised hands. While in prone, I forgot about the reciprocating changing handle for a moment, and took a shot while holding the top of the magazine well—I only needed to do it once to forever remind me not to ever do it again.

Overall the *SCAR 17s* was absolutely awesome to shoot. It was a huge attention getter at the range, with someone asking me during every break, “Is that a .308 SCAR?” More importantly, it exceeded my expectations on accuracy and reliability which completely overshadowed my few insignificant gripes and made them feel that much more insignificant.

*FINAL THOUGHTS*

The *SCAR 17s* was everything we were expecting. The minor complaints I have regarding the charging handle or the safety are almost dismissed when looking at what the rifle delivers as a total package. Out of 2,000 rounds so far through it, I have yet to experience any type of failure. The recoil is dramatically less than any .308 I’ve shot to date, which translates into unprecedented control and comfort while shooting. The features that are included with the *SCAR 17s* such as rails, the sighting system, adjustable stock, almost negate any need to purchase aftermarket parts to improve it (with a small, subjective exception regarding the safety).

The wait was over; the *FNH* *SCAR 17s* was finally in our hands. After a few months with *FN Herstal*’s newest*SCAR*, I wouldn’t hesitate to call it their flagship rifle. The *SCAR 17s* does everything one would expect from a 21st century rifle—it fulfills current expectations for modern ergonomics in a rifle, its reliability instills confidence with its operator, and its accuracy leaves nothing to blame but the person behind the trigger. Yet, it comes at a price, and a high one at that. However, one needs to incorporate all what the *SCAR *delivers; it is essentially a true all-in-one type of rifle. It is the Ferrari of carbines, the Lamborghini of rifles; the *SCAR17s* performs parallel with its price point (which will come down over time). When I ask myself, “Is this rifle worth it?” it’s just too subjective of a question to answer definitively; I would say Ferris Bueller’s quote sums it up when he said, “It is so choice. If you have the means, I highly recommend picking up one.”

http://gunblog.com/scar17sreview

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## Zarvan




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## Thorough Pro

What does your sentence in red mean?
Army trials are not over yet but because COAS met some delegates from some country so he will select weapon from that country without any consideration to what the evaluation team has been doing?





Zarvan said:


> Guys today Italian foreign minister met Army Chief and Yesterday it was Italian Army Chief who met Raheel Sharif. *Well Why I'm having a feeling that Berreta ARX-200 will be selected as Pakistan's new ASSAULT Rifle.*
> @Icarus @balixd @kaonalpha @F.O.X @Horus





Zarvan said:


> How on earth you think I insulted Army Chief ?


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## madmusti



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## Zarvan

Thorough Pro said:


> What does your sentence in red mean?
> Army trials are not over yet but because COAS met some delegates from some country so he will select weapon from that country without any consideration to what the evaluation team has been doing?


Well I thought may be trials are over that's why those two senior Italian Officials are here. So stop drawing hilarious conclusions.


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## Thorough Pro

My conclusions are not hilarious, it's your stupidity which is hilarious. Why did you thought the trials were over? Did PA announced the winner? What made you think Beretta won the competition? Why do you think every time COAS visits some country or meets someone it is to buy or sell something? Why do you think Pakistan "needs" x number of this and 2x number of that of every military equipment pic that you like? 



Zarvan said:


> Well I thought may be trials are over that's why those two senior Italian Officials are here. So stop drawing hilarious conclusions.


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## Zahoor Raja-Jani

Nice topic...
But first we need to understand why PA needs to change battle proven home made dirt cheap main battle rifle G3 and variants and without knowing that our advices and ideas are just finding something in a thin air not more than that.
While serving what issues I have face in training and other exercises.
1. No issues just behave like any other standard issue rifle but
2. Too heavy and less ammo we can carry.
3. Stability of aim issue for small body / weight soldiers due to heavy recoil
4. Unfit for close combats, specially in modern warfare
5. Jamming and complex mechanism for average soldiers

These are the main issues now working on that what we need is little lesser powered ammo rifle
we can carry more ammo, we can build at home with or without licensed production, ammo is available in Pakistan, less recoil, less prone to jamming and average soldier can maintain jamming related issues.

my answer is AK series are currently best.

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## MastanKhan

Zarvan said:


> Guys today Italian foreign minister met Army Chief and Yesterday it was Italian Army Chief who met Raheel Sharif. Well Why I'm having a feeling that Berreta ARX-200 will be selected as Pakistan's new ASSAULT Rifle.
> @Icarus @balixd @kaonalpha @F.O.X @Horus



Hi,

The Sapada missiles---the troop carriers----possibly a deal on the radar of the JF17 and other electronics might be packaged with Berreta ??????

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## Zarvan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The Sapada missiles---the troop carriers----possibly a deal on the radar of the JF17 and other electronics might be packaged with Berreta ??????


Berreta I don't think so and I hope not but I can see some deal on Radar and some IFV and may be helicopters. I also heard UK and Italy are both pushing to sell Euro Fighter to us.

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## F.O.X

Zahoor Raja-Jani said:


> Nice topic...
> But first we need to understand why PA needs to change battle proven home made dirt cheap main battle rifle G3 and variants and without knowing that our advices and ideas are just finding something in a thin air not more than that.
> While serving what issues I have face in training and other exercises.
> 1. No issues just behave like any other standard issue rifle but
> 2. Too heavy and less ammo we can carry.
> 3. Stability of aim issue for small body / weight soldiers due to heavy recoil
> 4. Unfit for close combats, specially in modern warfare
> 5. Jamming and complex mechanism for average soldiers
> 
> These are the main issues now working on that what we need is little lesser powered ammo rifle
> we can carry more ammo, we can build at home with or without licensed production, ammo is available in Pakistan, less recoil, less prone to jamming and average soldier can maintain jamming related issues.
> 
> my answer is AK series are currently best.


You never Fired a Gun in your life have you ?

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## RAMPAGE

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The Sapada missiles---the troop carriers----possibly a deal on the radar of the JF17 and other electronics might be packaged with Berreta ??????


Come on Mastan Sahab, Billi ko kwaaab mai cheechray.

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## Zarvan

RAMPAGE said:


> Come on Mastan Sahab, Billi ko kwaaab mai cheechray.


Italy has offered us lot of weapons in the past and are still offering. In fact AESA for JF-17 is most likely to come from Italy.


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## Thorough Pro

@Zarvan what changed in a span of 24 hours?



Zarvan said:


> *Berreta I don't think so and I hope not* but I can see some deal on Radar and some IFV and may be helicopters. I also heard UK and Italy are both pushing to sell Euro Fighter to us.






Zarvan said:


> Guys today Italian foreign minister met Army Chief and Yesterday it was Italian Army Chief who met Raheel Sharif. Well Why *I'm having a feeling that Berreta ARX-200 will be selected as Pakistan's new ASSAULT Rifle.*
> @Icarus @balixd @kaonalpha @F.O.X @Horus


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## Zahoor Raja-Jani

F.O.X said:


> You never Fired a Gun in your life have you ?


You are saying because my views didn't support yours, very sad not a gentlemen attitude.


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## Zarvan

Thorough Pro said:


> @Zarvan what changed in a span of 24 hours?


Because insiders said meetings were not related to Guns and I always was FN SCAR supporter if you are following this thread from page one you would know it.


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## Path-Finder

Beretta is not a bad rifle at all. like the SCAR it uses modern engineering and materials in it. I am happy with whatever PA chooses as long as G3 comes to end of service quickly.



Zarvan said:


> Because insiders said meetings were not related to Guns and I always was FN SCAR supporter if you are following this thread from page one you would know it.


ahh it was a transformation or journey from MPT 76 to SCAR to Beretta ARX 200


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Beretta is not a bad rifle at all. like the SCAR it uses modern engineering and materials in it. I am happy with whatever PA chooses as long as G3 comes to end of service quickly.
> 
> ahh it was a transformation or journey from MPT 76 to SCAR to Beretta ARX 200


I was always a SCAR supporter. I thought of MPT-76 because I thought we didn't had money for SCAR. But when I came to know about the Guns which are being tested since than I am hoping that FN SCAR wins.

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## Quwa

Path-Finder said:


> Beretta is not a bad rifle at all. like the SCAR it uses modern engineering and materials in it. I am happy with whatever PA chooses as long as G3 comes to end of service quickly.
> 
> ahh it was a transformation or journey from MPT 76 to SCAR to Beretta ARX 200


He'll end up at CZ BREN.

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## Zarvan

Quwa said:


> He'll end up at CZ BREN.


I always was and will be supporter of FN SCAR. I was thinking of MPT-76 not because I like it more than FN SCAR but I thought we would never even test FN SCAR because How expensive it's but when details of Guns being tested came since that day My vote is for FN SCAR.


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## Quwa

Zarvan said:


> I always was and will be supporter of FN SCAR. I was thinking of MPT-76 not because I like it more than FN SCAR but I thought we would never even test FN SCAR because How expensive it's but when details of Guns being tested came since that day My vote is for FN SCAR.


We'll make you a fan of the Zastava

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## Zarvan

*The SitRep: FNH SCAR 17s (Heavy)*
by Steven Buis - Monday, July 14, 2014







“Ten Minutes!” The crew chief yells, trying to overcome the sound of the dual rotors of the MH-47.

I tilt down my NODs and turn the switch of my PEQ15 laser to the high Infrared setting.

"Six Minutes!”

“Three Minutes!”

I bring myself to one knee. One hand on the pistol grip of my M249 SAW and one on my safety tether that is secured to the floor of the bird.

“Thirty Seconds!”

The 25 tons of flying metal sharply flares, and touches ground. I release my tether and run out into a cloud of fine Afghan sand. My platoon and I break into a dead sprint towards the known Taliban compound and surround it.

This is how most nights began for me during my deployment to Afghanistan. The adverse conditions of South Asia and high intensity of the Special Operation Mission demand an adaptable, and lightweight weapon system. Although I am a huge fan the M16 family of rifles and carbines, especially the SOPMOD M4A1 Carbine, sometimes the mission requires more.

That’s where the SCAR Heavy comes in to play.

The SCAR (Special Operation Forces Combat Assault Rifle) was developed by Fabrique Nationale Herstal (FNH) in response to the U.S. Army’s interest in fielding a modular, reliable, and lightweight weapon system chambered in 7.62x51 mm NATO and 5.56x45 mm NATO. The result is a gun that meets all those expectations. FNH ultimately placed two models in production: The SCAR Mk16 (5.56 x 45 mm) better known as the SCAR-L (Light) and the SCAR Mk17 (7.62x51 mm), SCAR-H (Heavy). After field testing both models, the Army decided to drop the SCAR-L program. FNH subsequently developed a conversion kit that, in less than five minutes, converts the Heavy to 5.56x45mm. The upper receiver and buttstock are the main common components between the two calibers.

Soon after the military began fielding it in limited numbers with select units, FNH introduced two commercial semi-automatic versions of the SCAR for civilian sales: the SCAR 16S in 5.56x45mm and the SCAR 17s in 7.61x51 mm.

So what are the differences between the military SCAR Mk 17 and the civilian SCAR 17s?

Well, they are few in number, and that is one of my favorite aspects of this weapon system. The most noticeable difference is that the Mk17 is select fire while the SCAR 17s is semi-automatic only. The Mk17 offers three barrels-13”/16”/20”-whereas the 17s offers only a 16.25” from the factory. Beyond that, when you unpack a SCAR 17s from its shipping container you are holding a rifle that is almost identical to the one that Special Operations troops carry on combat missions in Afghanistan.

Weighing in at an evenly distributed 8 lbs., the SCAR 17s comes standard with a collapsible and folding stock with an adjustable cheek riser, 360 degree MIL-STD 1913 Picatinny rail, folding front and rear iron sights, ambidextrous selector and magazine release. The reciprocating charging handle is ambidextrous and can be moved from one side of the receiver to the other with ease. It can also be used as a forward assist in the event that bolt fails to go into battery fully.

The SCAR 17s is outfitted with a 16.25” barrel with 1:12" twist rate. This is not just your run-of-the-mill barrel, but rather one that is chrome-lined, cold-hammer-forged, and free floating. The barrel is held in place by six small screws that can be quickly removed to replace a barrel length specific to mission requirements. Though the 17s only comes with the 16.25”, other barrel lengths are becoming available to the civilian market. The SCAR 17s’ barrel comes outfitted with a PWS FSC30 muzzle break.

So what makes the SCAR tick?

First of all, it utilizes a short-stroke piston housed in the gas block. The bolt carrier extends above the barrel and contacts the gas block. When the gun is fired, a small piston housed within the gas block rapidly strikes the face of the bolt carrier. The shooter has the ability to operate in two gas settings by the flip of the gas regulator located on the gas block. The 12 o’clock position is used for unsuppressed firing and the 10 o’clock position for suppressed. Similar to any M16 variant the SCAR uses a six-lug, rotating, and locking bolt.

So what does the SCAR Heavy have to offer both the operator and the civilian shooter?

First and foremost-7.62x51 mm. Whether you are a hunter going after a 300-lb. pig in Georgia, or a military member fighting the Global War on Terror, the 7.62 NATO cartridge provides sufficient energy to engage targets at 800 meters and beyond.

For me, practical ergonomic characteristics are critical to the success of a firearm’s design and very often 7.62 mm rifles come up a bit short in that category. With this system, however, the safety selector, magazine release, and charging handle are conveniently located, the buttstock is stoutly built and comfortable, and the weight is evenly distributed across the length of the rifle. One shortcoming relating to practical ergonomics is the SCAR's short rail system, which leaves a large amount of exposed barrel. For many, this is not an issue. For me, I prefer to be able to extend my hand farther out, supporting 70 percent of the rifle’s weight with my off hand and 30 percent with my shooting hand.

How versatile is the SCAR-H?

While serving in the Army, I saw it being used in various capacities. Everything from snipers using it as a long range precision gun, to Assistant Gunners carrying the SCAR to have caliber compatibility with the M240. Often team leaders carried the SCAR-H with the 5.56 mm conversion kit installed outfitted with the 10” barrel to have a compact gun that does not interfere with detaining terrorist. Due to confined cabins, I preferred using the 5.56 mm SCAR-H when part of an Armored Personnel Carrier crew.

Whether you are hunting, long-range shooting, competing or using it as a go gun, it is going to perform appropriately.

The SCAR-H has been on the market for a few years now. Due to its popularity, a wide variety of aftermarket parts and accessories are being produced. Although little is needed to improve the SCAR, there are a few modifications that would make it the ultimate system. For one, adding an extended rail. Some of the companies to note include FNH, Midwest Industries, Vltor, and PWS (Primary Weapons Systems). Most extended rails on the market are priced under $250.

The stock trigger is perfectly acceptable for a combat battle rifle trigger. That being said, if you intend to use the SCAR-H for precision shooting or hunting a lighter crisper trigger should be a consideration. The Geissele’s 2-stage Super SCAR trigger and the Timney SCAR trigger are both high in quality and are priced in the mid-$300 range.

So is the SCAR-H perfect? No. It is however, lightweight, modular, reliable and accurate. It’s comfortable to carry and shoot, and compact if needed. It disassembles with ease and requires little cleaning after being shot.

With the SCAR, it is only beginning of an evolutionary cycle. Over next decade, we are going to see that this system is a force to be reckoned with.






http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2014/7/14/the-sitrep-fnh-scar-17s-heavy/

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## Zarvan

*The NEW Beretta ARX 200 7.62mm Designated Marksmen Rifle*
Posted September 16, 2015 in Rifles by REMOV with 60 Comments






Italian company Beretta Defense Technologies unveiled at DSEI military exhibition in London new ARX 200 rifle in calibre 7.62×51 mm NATO.

ADVERTISEMENT

magazine and length is: 730 mm with folded stock; 890 mm with collapsed stock; and 1000 mm with extended stock.

In 2014 the Italian Ministry of Defence allocated USD2.7 million to Beretta for the development of the new battle rifle. The Italian Armed Forces has announced a possible requirement for 1,170 rifles named ARX 200 chambered in 7.62×51 mm NATO cartridge.





The Italians are planning to introduce two variants of ARX 200: a fixed stock designated marksman rifle (DMR) and foldable and telescopic stock battle rifle; both capable of semi-automatic and automatic fire. The new rifle is planned to fill the gap in Italian infantry armament between the 5.56 mm assault rifle and large calibre bolt-action sniper rifles, based on combat experiences in Afghanistan.

The Beretta ARX 200 DMR is to be equipped with a computerised Intelligent Combat Sight (ICS) developed by Steiner Optics (a subsidiary of Beretta Defense Technologies), which integrates a laserrangefinder, an inclinometer, and a ballistic calculator into a compact 6×40 optics.

The battle rifle is equipped with interface for the Beretta GLX 160 grenade launcher chambered in 40×46 mm NATO ammunition, a foldable telescopic stock with adjustable cheek rest, shock absorber back plate and four fixed sling attachments.

Italy has ordered four hundred ARX 200 battle rifles for trials and evaluation. The Italian Armed Forces be also testing how to introduce an battle rifle into small infantry units. Possibly 2-3 designated marksman rifle and battle rifles are planned to be at squad level. It is expected the first batch of ARX 200s be delivered to the end of 2015.






The Beretta ARX 200 rifle features fully ambidextrous and oversized controls includes bolt catch lever, magazine release button and fire selector. Unlike its predecessor, the 7.62 mm battle rifle is not designed to change which side shells are ejected. However the cocking handle remained reversible and can be switched from right to left side of upper receiver.

The ARX 200 is equipped with a quick-change free floating cold hammer forged barrel which can be removed and replaced in a minute using one wrench. The barrel locking bolt is located in front ofmagazine well. The Beretta informs the ARX 200 accuracy is 1.5 MOA with 5 shots at 100 meters. The 406-mm (16 inch) long barrel (excluded flash hider) has four right-hand grooves and 279 mm (11 inch) twist rate.

The monolithic upper receiver with long Picatinny rain on top is made of polymer reinforced by steel parts, including internal rails for a weapon boltcarrier. The polymer lower receiver is equipped with modular magazine well for new Beretta 20-round polymer magazine or with adapter for M110/SR-25magazines. The ARX 200 is easy to convert to Russian 7.62×39 mm and 5.45×45 mm NATO ammunition.

*The Beretta ARX 200 has passed following military and environmental tests: cold and hot temperature; temperature and humidity; ice; salt fog; heavy rain; salt water; sand and dust; mud; unlubricated; double feeding proof; and barrel obstruction proof.*

UPDATE: Steve says: Our friends at Ares Armamenthave also blogged about this rifle, read more here.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...tta-arx-200-7-62mm-designated-marksmen-rifle/

@Sulman Badshah @Tipu7


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> *The NEW Beretta ARX 200 7.62mm Designated Marksmen Rifle*
> Posted September 16, 2015 in Rifles by REMOV with 60 Comments
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Italian company Beretta Defense Technologies unveiled at DSEI military exhibition in London new ARX 200 rifle in calibre 7.62×51 mm NATO.
> 
> ADVERTISEMENT
> 
> magazine and length is: 730 mm with folded stock; 890 mm with collapsed stock; and 1000 mm with extended stock.
> 
> In 2014 the Italian Ministry of Defence allocated USD2.7 million to Beretta for the development of the new battle rifle. The Italian Armed Forces has announced a possible requirement for 1,170 rifles named ARX 200 chambered in 7.62×51 mm NATO cartridge.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Italians are planning to introduce two variants of ARX 200: a fixed stock designated marksman rifle (DMR) and foldable and telescopic stock battle rifle; both capable of semi-automatic and automatic fire. The new rifle is planned to fill the gap in Italian infantry armament between the 5.56 mm assault rifle and large calibre bolt-action sniper rifles, based on combat experiences in Afghanistan.
> 
> The Beretta ARX 200 DMR is to be equipped with a computerised Intelligent Combat Sight (ICS) developed by Steiner Optics (a subsidiary of Beretta Defense Technologies), which integrates a laserrangefinder, an inclinometer, and a ballistic calculator into a compact 6×40 optics.
> 
> The battle rifle is equipped with interface for the Beretta GLX 160 grenade launcher chambered in 40×46 mm NATO ammunition, a foldable telescopic stock with adjustable cheek rest, shock absorber back plate and four fixed sling attachments.
> 
> Italy has ordered four hundred ARX 200 battle rifles for trials and evaluation. The Italian Armed Forces be also testing how to introduce an battle rifle into small infantry units. Possibly 2-3 designated marksman rifle and battle rifles are planned to be at squad level. It is expected the first batch of ARX 200s be delivered to the end of 2015.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Beretta ARX 200 rifle features fully ambidextrous and oversized controls includes bolt catch lever, magazine release button and fire selector. Unlike its predecessor, the 7.62 mm battle rifle is not designed to change which side shells are ejected. However the cocking handle remained reversible and can be switched from right to left side of upper receiver.
> 
> The ARX 200 is equipped with a quick-change free floating cold hammer forged barrel which can be removed and replaced in a minute using one wrench. The barrel locking bolt is located in front ofmagazine well. The Beretta informs the ARX 200 accuracy is 1.5 MOA with 5 shots at 100 meters. The 406-mm (16 inch) long barrel (excluded flash hider) has four right-hand grooves and 279 mm (11 inch) twist rate.
> 
> The monolithic upper receiver with long Picatinny rain on top is made of polymer reinforced by steel parts, including internal rails for a weapon boltcarrier. The polymer lower receiver is equipped with modular magazine well for new Beretta 20-round polymer magazine or with adapter for M110/SR-25magazines. The ARX 200 is easy to convert to Russian 7.62×39 mm and 5.45×45 mm NATO ammunition.
> 
> *The Beretta ARX 200 has passed following military and environmental tests: cold and hot temperature; temperature and humidity; ice; salt fog; heavy rain; salt water; sand and dust; mud; unlubricated; double feeding proof; and barrel obstruction proof.*
> 
> UPDATE: Steve says: Our friends at Ares Armamenthave also blogged about this rifle, read more here.
> 
> http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...tta-arx-200-7-62mm-designated-marksmen-rifle/
> 
> @Sulman Badshah @Tipu7


Zarvan I sense there may be a heavy lean towards Beretta due to the fact that Steiner Optics can also be procured as it is owned by Beretta and the modularity of making it a 7.62x39 by changing few things on the rifle that SCAR currently is not offering. I wonder if CZ BREN would offer any deal on MEOPTA products?

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Zarvan I sense there may be a heavy lean towards Beretta due to the fact that Steiner Optics can also be procured as it is owned by Beretta and the modularity of making it a 7.62x39 by changing few things on the rifle that SCAR currently is not offering. I wonder if CZ BREN would offer any deal on MEOPTA products?


Optics can be bought from Turkey and other countries. FN SCAR is way to good Gun and can't be rejected just for optics


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Optics can be bought from Turkey and other countries. FN SCAR is way to good Gun and can't be rejected just for optics


but you cannot turn down Steiner the master optic maker! plus we need to see a SCAR vs Beretta ARX 200 as well.


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> but you cannot turn down Steiner the master optic maker! plus we need to see a SCAR vs Beretta ARX 200 as well.


We can seperately by Binoculars but FN SCAR is great great Gun and would be difficult for Berreta to beat in trials.


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## Zarvan

*CZ-805 BREN A2*








*06/24/2014 - EUROSATORY 2014: Česká Zbrojovka A.S. showcased the CZ-805 BREN A2 5.56x45mm small-sized assault rifle at the Paris homeland defence trade show*



New
Pierangelo Tendas


*Article also available in other languages*

*

*


Czech-based CZ - Česká Zbrojovka A.S. − one of Europe's biggest and most important firearms manufacturers − revolutioned its ageing military products line in 2009 with the launch of the 5.56x45mm NATO caliber CZ-805 BREN weapon system. Following a lenghty research-and-development phase and a series of trial tests that saw it matching against the Belgian-made FN SCAR-L, the CZ-805 BREN system was adopted as the new standard infantry rifle by the Czech Armed Forces, replacing the 7.62x39mm caliber Vz.58; the system is now under trial test in Slovakia as well, and has been exported in smaller but nonetheless notable quantities to other military and Police special operations customers worldwide.





The CZ-805 BREN A2 small-sized assault rifle will accept a proprietary undercarried grenade launcher and can be made to feed through STANAG 4179 magazines
The CZ-805 BREN weapon system is built around a reinforced polymer lower receiver with totally ambidextrous controls, and a machined lightweight aluminium alloy upper receiver sporting a full-lenght top MIL-STD-1913 "Picatinny" rail and several rail portons on the handguard, as well as key components such as a reversible cocking handle and a piston-drive, indirect gas impingment system with front regulation valve. The CZ-805 BREN weapon system is compatible with a wide array of factory-issue or third-party optical gunsights, flip-up iron sights and other tactical accessories, it may come with either a standard side-folding stock or a "tactical" folding and adjustable stock with integrated cheekpiece, and will fit CZ's own G805 single-shot, reloadable, undercarried 40x46mm-SR grenade launcher − which, in turn, can also be converted to serve as a stand-alone weapon through the attachment of a stock and pistol grip assembly.





The CZ-805-BREN-A2 is a compact version (277mm barrel) of the hereby pictured, full-sized CZ-805-BREN-A1 assault rifle
According to informations released by the Company itself, other variants are cooking in the oven at Uherský Brod, including improved versions of the system and semi-automatic, civilian-grade models. At the meanwhile, the members of the specialized press, of the industry and of the defense sector gathered at the nord Villepinte exhibitions and convention center in Paris (France) from June 16th to 20th to attend to the 2014 edition of the EUROSATORY defense expo could see and handle by themselves the_*CZ-805 BREN A2*_ assault carbine variant of the system, sporting a 277mm-long, chrome-lined barrel with six right-handed helical grooves and a 1:7" twist rate.

A select-fire carbine, sporting a 700/800 RPM cyclic rate, the CZ-805 BREN A2 carbine is 585mm long with the stock folded and 780mm long with the stock unfolded and fully extended; its overall weight tops 3.41kg when fully loaded.


The most important feature of the CZ-805 BREN A2 assault carbine − and of the entire CZ-805 BREN weapon system altogether − is the feeding system modularity; the interchangeable magazine well will allow the use of proprietary translucent polymer magazines as well as Heckler & Koch G36 magazines and STANG 4179 (AR-15/M16/M4 type) magazines of any make, model, and material. 

The replacement of the barrel and bolt group will also allow caliber interchangeability: the CZ-805 BREN system is planned to be compatible with the 6.8x43mm SPC caliber − feeding through STANAG magazines − and with the 7.62x39mm M43 former ComBloc round, which should be able to feed from proprietary translucent polymer magazines, from AK/AKM magazines or from Vz.58 magazines, depending from the magazine well.


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## Zarvan

*CZ 805 Bren Ceska Zbrojovka Assault Rifle*
0 Army 




The CZ 805 Bren assault rifle was first is available in two versions. The first version is CZ 805 BREN A1 has barrel length of 360 mm while carbine version is called CZ 805 BREN A2 and it has a shorter barrel length of 277 mm.




Czech Republic Minister of Defence Alexandr Vondra checks the CZ 805 Bren Ceska Zbrojovka Assault Rifle.



The CZ 805 Bren assault rifle uses 5.56x45 mm NATO cartridge but its modular design allows it to change barrels for different calibre including 7.62x39 mm and 6.8x43 mm.







The CZ 805 can be equipped with a folding mechanical sight and it has range of 400m to 500m depending upon the length of the barrel.

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## Zarvan

*CZ BREN 805*
Over the past several years, there has been an ongoing…
DEC 12, 2011 
BY CHRISTIAN SHEPHERD

Over the past several years, there has been an ongoing trend of modernization among many of the world’s leading military forces. This trend has primarily been driven by the great strides in military technology in the fields of digital computers, networked communications and imaging. Firearms manufacturers have been working closely with military forces to produce new, lightweight and modular small arms that can accommodate the myriad of available optical sights, night vision, thermal imagers, laser targeting devices and other accessories. Modular design principles allow these next-generation small arms to adapt to different roles by easily changing components such as barrels and stocks. Another ongoing part of the modernization trend is that many nations in Eastern Europe have been transforming their defense establishment away from the old Soviet system and have now adopted NATO standards, as they leave the former Warsaw Pact and join NATO.




*Get This Issue Now*



_The G1 grenade launcher can safely fire a wide variety of modern grenades. Operator Photos Courtesy Czech Republic Mod._

Next-Gen BREN
The armed forces of the Czech Republic, along with legendary Czech arms company Ceská Zbrojovka, have been working together to produce the next-generation infantry rifle and a companion grenade launcher for their country. Ceská Zbrojovka, better known by the initials CZ to readers in the United States, celebrated its 75-year anniversary in 2011. CZ was founded in 1936 and was largely oriented toward military small arms production.




_The BREN’s upper receiver is equipped with Mil-Std-1913 mounting rails and can accommodate a full spectrum of optical sights and sighting accessories. Weapon Photos Courtesy Ceská Zbrojovka._

Today, CZ is also well known for its civilian products that are geared toward both competition and hunting. The company became famous for its CZ 75 pistol and other notable products like the CZ 61 Skorpion submachine gun. The result of the collaboration between the Czech defense establishment and CZ is the CZ 805 BREN modular assault rifle and CZ 805 G1 grenade launcher.




_Tactical change-up! The CZ 805 BREN is replacing the legacy 7.62x39mm Sa Vz. 58 assault rifle, which has been used by Czech soldiers for more than 50 years. Operator Photos Courtesy Czech Republic Mod._


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## Paksanity

Quwa said:


> We'll make you a fan of the Zastava



Nothing wrong with Zastava. In fact I favour this gun if reliability test rumours are true. Compared to shiny over engineered gun at steep price, I favour a simple and reliable gun that fires no matter what.

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## MastanKhan

Pakistan army may chose whatever-----this is what my next pistol / rifle going to be---either one or both of them or all three---

*CZ-USA 805 BREN PS1 PISTOL/SBR KIT 5.56 NATO*







or

2016 SHOT SHOW: CZ 805 Bren S1 Carbine 16" Barrel 5.56






Or
Wesson M&P-10IWA 2014 / New from Smith & Wesson: M&P-10 series rifles, packing .308 Winchester/7.62x51mm punch in a reliable, affordable package






I am going to this gun show on the 17th next month and then will decides----.

Pak army can do what ever it wants to.

This one I just picked up today .270 winchester.

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## Quwa

Between the FN SCAR, Beretta ARX-200, and BREN 2, the BREN 2 is probably the most affordable. Granted, these new SCAR-inspired rifles aren't cheap, but the $500-1000 per unit savings we could pull from each BREN 2 could be put into high quality optics (or a quicker rifle induction process). That savings gap may be higher with the Zastava M77 and AK-103.

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## MilSpec

MastanKhan said:


> View attachment 302175
> 
> 
> I am going to this gun show on the 17th next month and then will decides----.
> 
> Pak army can do what ever it wants to.
> 
> This one I just picked up today .270 winchester.
> 
> View attachment 302176



Beautiful, looks like you found some someone's stored stash.  My gr8 find last week was finally nailing some cci 22lr from walmart.


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## Zarvan



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## MastanKhan

MilSpec said:


> Beautiful, looks like you found some someone's stored stash.  My gr8 find last week was finally nailing some cci 22lr from walmart.



Hi,

This is a brand new circa 1985 .270 winchester----The gun dealer's father was an importer---retd and gave the bus to son-----. The son died---dad checked the house----there were around 100 rifle---over a 100 CZ pistols and around 50 shotguns---from 1985 to 1992.

The seller still has a CZ double barrel SxS 12 guage circe 1990 brand new---I am thinking about that as well.

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## MilSpec

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> This is a brand new circa 1985 .270 winchester----The gun dealer's father was an importer---retd and gave the bus to son-----. The son died---dad checked the house----there were around 100 rifle---over a 100 CZ pistols and around 50 shotguns---from 1985 to 1992.
> 
> The seller still has a CZ double barrel SxS 12 guage circe 1990 brand new---I am thinking about that as well.


Don't even think, just pick it up. If you do ever go duck/pheasant hunting, single/double/over unders do a lot better than the cheapo pump action these days I see hunters carry. 
Looks like you hit the Jackpot, did he list anything on gunbroker, if yes send me a link.


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## MastanKhan

MilSpec said:


> Don't even think, just pick it up. If you do ever go duck/pheasant hunting, single/double/over unders do a lot better than the cheapo pump action these days I see hunters carry.
> Looks like you hit the Jackpot, did he list anything on gunbroker, if yes send me a link.



Just got it today---. It is hiding in the closet---.

https://www.gunsamerica.com/Search.htm?lid=1730

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## Zarvan



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## Zarvan

*FN SCAR 17S & Burris Eliminator III @932 yards*
*We didn't really planned on shooting the SCAR 17S that far out but since we wanted to test the Burris Eliminator III, we figured we could at least try to hit that 66% IPSC target at 932 yards.

TulAmmo is def. not the most accurate ammo but hey, if that's all you've got it's good to know what to expect at long range. And to be honest, it did pretty well considering!

Anyways, always good times and we thought we'd share with you guys!!


Rifle: FN SCAR 17S 7.62x51 NATO (SCAR Heavy)
Scope: Burris Eliminator III 3-12x44 with X96 reticle
Ammo: TulAmmo .308 150Gr
Rangefinder: Bushnell Elite Tactical 1-Mile ARC 7x26mm & Burris Eliminator III*

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## Path-Finder

Well if SCAR is not selected then @Zarvan might have a heart attack!

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Well if SCAR is not selected then @Zarvan might have a heart attack!


Army needs to do something really special to not to go for FN SCAR.

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## Amaa'n

According to an employee of PoF, Sixth team is soon to joined the party --- PWS from US has entered the trail & according to the employee's post it is only weapon system that can give hard time to FN SCAR in trails ----do note SCAR is a Short Stroke weapon system while PWS is a Longer Stroke system ---- I sent him a PM requesting more details --- awaiting his response

@Zarvan @RAMPAGE @Horus @DESERT FIGHTER @Tipu7
@Quwa forgot to tag you

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## Zarvan

balixd said:


> According to an employee of PoF, Sixth team has joined the party --- PWS from US has entered the trail & according to the employee's post it is only weapon system giving hard time to FN SCAR in trails ----do note SCAR is a Short Stroke weapon system while PWS is a Longer Stroke system ---- I sent him a PM requesting more details --- awaiting his response
> 
> @Zarvan @RAMPAGE @Horus @DESERT FIGHTER @Tipu7


Can you post the picture of PWS ? I can't find anything on google


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## Amaa'n

Zarvan said:


> Can you post the picture of PWS ? I can't find anything on google


small correction --- It will be joining the party soon ----





it is a modular design, same as FN just swap out the Upper to change the Calibre
http://primaryweapons.com/store/product/mk110-rifle/

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## Zarvan

balixd said:


> small correction --- It will be joining the party soon ----
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> it is a modular design, same as FN just swap out the Upper to change the Calibre
> http://primaryweapons.com/store/product/mk110-rifle/


Why POF is hell bent on giving me heart attack. I am going to start a dharna if they don't select FN SCAR




balixd said:


> small correction --- It will be joining the party soon ----
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> it is a modular design, same as FN just swap out the Upper to change the Calibre
> http://primaryweapons.com/store/product/mk110-rifle/


Well at least I am happy because it means that FN SCAR has pretty much outclassed other Guns in trails so far.

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## Path-Finder

balixd said:


> According to an employee of PoF, Sixth team is soon to joined the party --- PWS from US has entered the trail & according to the employee's post it is only weapon system that can give hard time to FN SCAR in trails ----do note SCAR is a Short Stroke weapon system while PWS is a Longer Stroke system ---- I sent him a PM requesting more details --- awaiting his response
> 
> @Zarvan @RAMPAGE @Horus @DESERT FIGHTER @Tipu7
> @Quwa forgot to tag you


I merely mentioned a heart attack and you gave Zarvan the heart attack.

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## Zarvan

*SCAR 16 SBR vs MK18 SBR - Which Is Better?*
*No baby beats my FN SCAR *

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## TheConquerer

*Slow Motion PWS Long-Stroke Piston System*
*



*


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## Path-Finder

TheConquerer said:


> *Slow Motion PWS Long-Stroke Piston System*
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *


 Just like an AK 47


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## Zarvan

TheConquerer said:


> *Slow Motion PWS Long-Stroke Piston System*
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *


Their is no way this Gun can beat FN SCAR. Pakistan should have tested Remington ACR as 6th Gun.





@balixd @Path-Finder @Tipu7 @Sulman Badshah @Horus


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## Tipu7

Bhai
There was time when we used to say,

"G3 is just fine, under the economic crisis we have it is the best rifle for us. In future we will develop its further advance variant and it will stay in our armed forces for three more decades to come"

Now we testing state of art World class rifles made in through out the World. Including the "dream girls" like Scar or ARX 200.

I will just say to stay "humble", and do not just keep wishing for more and more guns just because they look impressive in wallpapers or demonstration videos.

Just hope the "rifle" most suited for us win and become part of our armed forces as soon as possible. We should replace legacy battle rifle of our armed forces with better rifle and before our enemy replace theirs.

What impressive is that what new Rifle will bring in POF if manufactured under TOT agreement. More knowledge and understanding about new era gun designs, the composite material they use etc. This knowledge later will be applied on existing POF guns in order to produce more compact versions which are lighter in weight and more safe and precise in use.

Just hope it will happen soon and in a effective way .......

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## Zarvan

Tipu7 said:


> Bhai
> There was time when we used to say,
> 
> "G3 is just fine, under the economic crisis we have it is the best rifle for us. In future we will develop its further advance variant and it will stay in our armed forces for three more decades to come"
> 
> Now we testing state of art World class rifles made in through out the World. Including the "dream girls" like Scar or ARX 200.
> 
> I will just say to stay "humble", and do not just keep wishing for more and more guns just because they look impressive in wallpapers or demonstration videos.
> 
> Just hope the "rifle" most suited for us win and become part of our armed forces as soon as possible. We should replace legacy battle rifle of our armed forces with better rifle and before our enemy replace theirs.
> 
> What impressive is that what new Rifle will bring in POF if manufactured under TOT agreement. More knowledge and understanding about new era gun designs, the composite material they use etc. This knowledge later will be applied on existing POF guns in order to produce more compact versions which are lighter in weight and more safe and precise in use.
> 
> Just hope it will happen soon and in a effective way .......


Bro we are going to test 6th Gun that is MK116 so I just suggested that instead of this MK116 we should test ACR.


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Their is no way this Gun can beat FN SCAR. Pakistan should have tested Remington ACR as 6th Gun.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @balixd @Path-Finder @Tipu7 @Sulman Badshah @Horus


Absolutely no need unless we are interested in the 6.8SPC cartridge which we are not.


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## MilSpec

MastanKhan said:


> Just got it today---. It is hiding in the closet---.
> 
> https://www.gunsamerica.com/Search.htm?lid=1730


post pics. Would love to see it.


----------



## RAMPAGE

@Zarvan

So who's our favorite contestant for today?


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## Zarvan

RAMPAGE said:


> @Zarvan
> 
> So who's our favorite contestant for today?


It always was and always will be FN SCAR. I am suggesting ACR as 6th Gun only because @balixd said that Pakistan is going to test MK116 as 6th so I suggest instead of MK116 test ACR. Still I am FN SCAR supporter and trials are making sure SCAR wins.



RAMPAGE said:


> @Zarvan
> 
> So who's our favorite contestant for today?


By the way which Guns are these because ACR is 5.56 but these are 7.62 ??


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## RAMPAGE

Zarvan said:


> It always was and always will be FN SCAR. I am suggesting ACR as 6th Gun only because @balixd said that Pakistan is going to test MK116 as 6th so I suggest instead of MK116 test ACR. Still I am FN SCAR supporter and trials are making sure SCAR wins.


ACR on steroids ...








Zarvan said:


> By the way which Guns are these because ACR is 5.56 but these are 7.62 ??


ACR ki amma jaan. Magpul Massaoud 776.

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## Zarvan

RAMPAGE said:


> ACR on steroids ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ACR ki amma jaan. Magpul Massaoud 776.


Even if we had with lots of money I doubt we would test this Gun because company won't even come due to strong relationship with Israel


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## RAMPAGE

@balixd

It seems that we haven't been able to arouse much interest among gunsmiths? Why is that?


----------



## ali_raza

guys just a question plz answer.i wanted to know about g3 how we tested and when we selected this gun what other guns were offered back then.


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## RAMPAGE




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## django

balixd said:


> small correction --- It will be joining the party soon ----
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> it is a modular design, same as FN just swap out the Upper to change the Calibre
> http://primaryweapons.com/store/product/mk110-rifle/


Now thaT IS ONE UGLYYYYYY looking weapon, perhaps it's performance makes up for it's looks.



ali_raza said:


> guys just a question plz answer.i wanted to know about g3 how we tested and when we selected this gun what other guns were offered back then.


According to one of the more knowledgeable bloggers blain, M-16, type 56, were also tested, the m-16 had the most satisfactory performance but g3 was selected due to costs.

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## ali_raza

django said:


> Now thaT IS ONE UGLYYYYYY looking weapon, perhaps it's performance makes up for it's looks.
> 
> 
> According to one of the more knowledgeable bloggers blain, M-16, type 56, were also tested, the m-16 had the most satisfactory performance but g3 was selected due to costs.


and what year it was?

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## django

ali_raza said:


> and what year it was?


sometime in the 70s I presume.

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## Zarvan

RAMPAGE said:


> @Zarvan @Icarus


Is this going under trials in Pakistan.


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## Zarvan

*The Baddest Battle Rifle on the Planet! - FN SCAR 17S Definitive Review*





*FN SCAR 17S Heavy Review*

*Battle rifle evolved, FN SCAR 17s review (VIDEO)*
4/03/14| by Jim Grant







When most folks hear the term battle rifle they imagine the venerable M14 or the FN FAL. Modern operators have a different, more modular choice: the FN SCAR 17s. Chambered in .308, this battle rifle makes both AR-15 and AK rifles feel wimpy by comparison. The SCAR ships with one steel 20-round magazine, features folding adjustable sights and retails for $2,999.99. Is the SCAR 17s an expensive toy or a serious rifle, watch the video to find out.

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## Zarvan

@balixd Sir after watching second video who on earth would test MK116 when we have FN SCAR

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## Arsalan

No matter how much ALL of us want the Pak Army to change there main rifle, i still feel that it wont be happening any time soon. At best we will see a few thousand guns bought to be used with some special units but it is not like that the G3 will be completely phased out and replaced with a new gun. Even though i strongly support that this should happen but i am not sure. It is not on the priority list as far as i can see, unfortunately.

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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> No matter how much ALL of us want the Pak Army to change there main rifle, i still feel that it wont be happening any time soon. At best we will see a few thousand guns bought to be used with some special units but it is not like that the G3 will be completely phased out and replaced with a new gun. Even though i strongly support that this should happen but i am not sure. It is not on the priority list as far as i can see, unfortunately.


Sir G3 is going out and we are replacing G3 and no not only Special Forces but entire Armed Forces including Para Military would get new Gun. Yes it would take a decade to produce all the Guns to replace G3.

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## django

Zarvan said:


> Sir G3 is going out and we are replacing G3 and no not only Special Forces but entire Armed Forces including Para Military would get new Gun. Yes it would take a decade to produce all the Guns to replace G3.


Once retired what will happen to these old G-3, type-56, I doubt any country will buy them. btw the lesser trained paramilitary will be fine with scoped type 56, steyr, m4 and even g3 for sniping. @Zarvan


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## Zarvan

django said:


> Once retired what will happen to these old G-3, type-56, I doubt any country will buy them. btw the lesser trained paramilitary will be fine with scoped type 56, steyr, m4 and even g3 for sniping. @Zarvan


No Para Military will be given new Gun and as for G3 many will be sold and many scrapped and other uses.

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## django

Zarvan said:


> No Para Military will be given new Gun and as for G3 many will be sold and *many scrapped and other uses*.


What other uses.


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## Zarvan

django said:


> What other uses.


Can be kept in storage and given to public in case of war goes really bad

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## MastanKhan

django said:


> Once retired what will happen to these old G-3, type-56, I doubt any country will buy them. btw the lesser trained paramilitary will be fine with scoped type 56, steyr, m4 and even g3 for sniping. @Zarvan



Hi,

There is a big market in the U S for the G3----if refurbished properly and parts made available----this rifle will do well. Just need to remove the automatic function.

Plus---pakistan military can also donate them to other nations who need them.

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## Gufi

MastanKhan said:


> Plus---pakistan military can also donate them to other nations who need them.


police and the rest do not have guns which even fire properly... donating or selling comes after a long line of organisations which need the guns... generosity can wait

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## Zarvan

Gufi said:


> police and the rest do not have guns which even fire properly... donating or selling comes after a long line of organisations which need the guns... generosity can wait


Well for Police I think it's time Army take matters in their hand. They should re train entire Police Force and also equip them. We don't have budget other wise I would have preferred Police being equipped with CZ-805 Bren A2 and also raise SWAT Unit with 50000 Troops.Not to forget establishing forensic labs in every city and also re organizing FIA and IB and Special Branch. Until Army does this they would remain busy inside Pakistan and will loose focus on India and other countries.


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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> Sir G3 is going out and we are replacing G3 and no not only Special Forces but entire Armed Forces including Para Military would get new Gun. Yes it would take a decade to produce all the Guns to replace G3.


Well @Zarvan ,, i am sorry but i have heard so much, i wont believe it till it actually happens. As for now, based on my own information, the replacement of main assault rifle/battlefield gun for WHOLE army is merely a fantasy and fan boy stuff. Trails are going on but the numbers being considered are no way near what is required to replace the G3 altogether. In fact, it will be only 3% 4% of what is required and for now, it will stay that way.



Zarvan said:


> Can be kept in storage and given to public in case of war goes really bad


hahahahha


----------



## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> Well @Zarvan ,, i am sorry but i have heard so much, i wont believe it till it actually happens. As for now, based on my own information, the replacement of main assault rifle/battlefield gun for WHOLE army is merely a fantasy and fan boy stuff. Trails are going on but the numbers being considered are no way near what is required to replace the G3 altogether. In fact, it will be only 3% 4% of what is required and for now, it will stay that way.
> 
> 
> hahahahha


It would go for entire Army and when we began the trials we calculated everything than trials were started and Sir I should remind you we would get the Gun with TOT so we can increase production rate as economy improves.

Finally for using public in war I think it should happen and it will happen.


----------



## fitpOsitive

Whatever rifle gets selected as next service rifle for forces, Pakistani civilians may also be allowed to keep whatever rifles they want in as many numbers they want. Currently DaKoos , Gundaas, and Politicians can keep whatever rifles they want, but Civilian Baychara? So, Pakistani policy makers please please open doors for civilians also as we also want to buy things made by PoF.


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## Paksanity

Arsalan said:


> Well @Zarvan ,, i am sorry but i have heard so much, i wont believe it till it actually happens. As for now, based on my own information, the replacement of main assault rifle/battlefield gun for WHOLE army is merely a fantasy and fan boy stuff. Trails are going on but the numbers being considered are no way near what is required to replace the G3 altogether. In fact, it will be only 3% 4% of what is required and for now, it will stay that way.
> 
> 
> hahahahha



This is why I am inclined towards Zastava M-21 and Ak-103. More I think about it more logical such choices seem. Who gives a rats *** how a rifle looks or how good the outer finish is. If it fires under adverse conditions, can be field maintained by the simple 'kaka sepoy' and hits it mark, I'm perfectly fine with it. Don't you think?



Zarvan said:


> It would go for entire Army and when we began the trials we calculated everything than trials were started and Sir I should remind you we would get the Gun with TOT so we can increase production rate as economy improves.
> 
> Finally for using public in war I think it should happen and it will happen.



I have a feeling we might end up with Ak or Zastava. You do want those -35s don't you?

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## Zarvan

Paksanity said:


> This is why I am inclined towards Zastava M-21 and Ak-103. More I think about it more logical such choices seem. Who gives a rats *** how a rifle looks or how good the outer finish is. If it fires under adverse conditions, can be field maintained by the simple 'kaka sepoy' and hits it mark, I'm perfectly fine with it. Don't you think?
> 
> 
> 
> I have a feeling we might end up with Ak or Zastava. You do want those -35s don't you?


We don't get blackmailed like that. Which ever Guns passes tests will be selected


----------



## django

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> There is a big market in the U S for the G3----if refurbished properly and parts made available----this rifle will do well. Just need to remove the automatic function.
> 
> Plus---pakistan military can also donate them to other nations who need them.


Yep MK, I hear POF manufactured MP-5 is doing quite well over in the states, so why not G-3.kudos

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## MastanKhan

django said:


> Yep MK, I hear POF manufactured MP-5 is doing quite well over in the states, so why not G-3.kudos



Hi,

I think that the G3 should do very well---even the older ones. Just don't pinch pennies in the production of new rifles or the reconditioning of used rifles for sale---.

Indeed MP 5 has done very well----they picked the right dealer----the youtube video was very good---the product performed as predicted.

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## django

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I think that the G3 should do very well---even the older ones. Just don't pinch pennies in the production of new rifles or the reconditioning of used rifles for sale---.
> 
> Indeed MP 5 has done very well----they picked the right dealer----the youtube video was very good---the product performed as predicted.


Yes it is a powerful rifle, something red neck yanks would surely love.kudos

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## Zarvan

Paksanity said:


> This is why I am inclined towards Zastava M-21 and Ak-103. More I think about it more logical such choices seem. Who gives a rats *** how a rifle looks or how good the outer finish is. If it fires under adverse conditions, can be field maintained by the simple 'kaka sepoy' and hits it mark, I'm perfectly fine with it. Don't you think?
> 
> 
> 
> I have a feeling we might end up with Ak or Zastava. You do want those -35s don't you?


Till now FN SCAR is doing best in the trials. Other Guns are not even close to FN SCAR in any aspect.

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## Irfan Baloch

Zarvan said:


> Till now FN SCAR is doing best in the trials. Other Guns are not even close to FN SCAR in any aspect.


lets keep wishing our favourite wins. I must confess I like the gun.
but I doubt if the outcome of these complex trials are so well known that enable you to comment with such certainty that FN is winning..
imagine the commissions and kickbacks involved .. I wont be surprised although they wont be as blatant as is the case with the civilians

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## MastanKhan

django said:


> Yes it is a powerful rifle, something red neck yanks would surely love.kudos



Hi,

You know what----I just though---this would be a military grade barrel---.

This would be a hot selling ticket----.

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Till now FN SCAR is doing best in the trials. Other Guns are not even close to FN SCAR in any aspect.


How did you get this info?


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

Paksanity said:


> This is why I am inclined towards Zastava M-21 and Ak-103. More I think about it more logical such choices seem. Who gives a rats *** how a rifle looks or how good the outer finish is. If it fires under adverse conditions, can be field maintained by the simple 'kaka sepoy' and hits it mark, I'm perfectly fine with it. Don't you think?
> 
> 
> 
> I have a feeling we might end up with Ak or Zastava. You do want those -35s don't you?



M-21 series is reliable but kicks like a mule .. I don't think they will go for an AK type weapon .. Otherwise they would have just standardised the T-56s in service ...

The aim of choosing a new rifle is to upgrade the army .. A rifle that will work for the next 20 years at least... POF is also tying to overhaul itself.. 

----






Personally I like Bren too... It's affordable and seems reliable ..



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I think that the G3 should do very well---even the older ones. Just don't pinch pennies in the production of new rifles or the reconditioning of used rifles for sale---.
> 
> Indeed MP 5 has done very well----they picked the right dealer----the youtube video was very good---the product performed as predicted.



They should also start exporting G3 semi variants and the semi automatic "Sportster" sniper to US.. I'm sure they will make a killing.

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## Paksanity

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> M-21 series is reliable but kicks like a mule .. I don't think they will go for an AK type weapon .. Otherwise they would have just standardised the T-56s in service ...
> 
> The aim of choosing a new rifle is to upgrade the army .. A rifle that will work for the next 20 years at least... POF is also tying to overhaul itself..
> 
> ----
> 
> View attachment 302731
> 
> Personally I like Bren too... It's affordable and seems reliable ..



Don't know mate. It might come down to choosing between arming 30% troops with best rifle or 100% with much better one. An LMG replacement is also getting due and may be packaged or affected by this deal. Let's see. Things should clear up by year's end. Chief will likely finalise before he leaves office.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Paksanity said:


> Don't know mate. It might come down to choosing between arming 30% troops with best rifle or 100% with much better one. An LMG replacement is also getting due and may be packaged or affected by this deal. Let's see. Things should clear up by year's end. Chief will likely finalise before he leaves office.



That's now how it works .. Even if they select AK it would take years to replace the G-3... 

They can either go for a cheaper rifle that's already outdated for the next 20+ years or the best which would easily soldier on for decades and looking at Gen Raheel I'm sure he's force wm to go for the best..

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> How did you get this info?


Well member balixd is the source



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> That's now how it works .. Even if they select AK it would take years to replace the G-3...
> 
> They can either go for a cheaper rifle that's already outdated for the next 20+ years or the best which would easily soldier on for decades and looking at Gen Raheel I'm sure he's force wm to go for the best..


We would have never tested FN SCAR if we had money issue. The moment we chose FN SCAR we knew what we are going for.


----------



## MastanKhan

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> M-21 series is reliable but kicks like a mule .. I don't think they will go for an AK type weapon .. Otherwise they would have just standardised the T-56s in service ...
> 
> The aim of choosing a new rifle is to upgrade the army .. A rifle that will work for the next 20 years at least... POF is also tying to overhaul itself..
> 
> ----
> 
> View attachment 302731
> 
> Personally I like Bren too... It's affordable and seems reliable ..
> 
> 
> 
> They should also start exporting G3 semi variants and the semi automatic "Sportster" sniper to US.. I'm sure they will make a killing.




Hi,

First they need to find out that the used military rifles---once refurbished in a semi automatic mode---what would they sell for in the U S---.

If they can sell 10000 rifles at 1000 dollars profit----they have a million bucks---they can buy 3 times the number of AK types for police and rangers----if they can sell 500000---they have 5 million dollars made---buy 30k AK's for the police---and the rest for their top tier rifle.

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## Thorough Pro

Entire army would be say roughly 600,000 strong @ roughly 500 a pop would mean US$ 300,000,000 @ PKR 100 a Dollar would be PKR 30,000,000,000.

Can you please share the "we calculated everything" calculation?




Zarvan said:


> It would go for entire Army and when we began the trials we calculated everything than trials were started and Sir I should remind you we would get the Gun with TOT so we can increase production rate as economy improves.
> 
> Finally for using public in war I think it should happen and it will happen.

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## Zarvan

Thorough Pro said:


> Entire army would be say roughly 600,000 strong @ roughly 500 a pop would mean US$ 300,000,000 @ PKR 100 a Dollar would be PKR 30,000,000,000.
> 
> Can you please share the "we calculated everything" calculation?


Sir 14 companies wanted to come including Chinese and MPT-76. We didn't invited them so before testing FN SCAR we knew what we are doing and what we are opting for.


----------



## Thorough Pro

NO It's not doing so well. The good thing was that POF created a new 'license produced" segment besides very expensive HK MP5 and pretty expensive locally workshop produced clones from kits or imported parts. POF entered at a comparatively low price ($1499) range with genuine 2nd push pin (hinged lower), good build quality, and superb functional reliability but it really sucked at finishing and some times misaligned sight tree, and tube. Once the market was established Turkish made MP-5's entered the market with better finish and sight alignment etc and is now dominating that segment. That is what happens when you enter a market without proper home work and for temporary gains. 



django said:


> Yep MK, I hear POF manufactured MP-5 is doing quite well over in the states, so why not G-3.kudos



Yes we knew what we wanted but how can you say that we wanted that for entire 600,000 soldiers and not only 30 or 50 or 100k strong strike force?




Zarvan said:


> Sir 14 companies wanted to come including Chinese and MPT-76. We didn't invited them so before testing FN SCAR we knew what we are doing and what we are opting for.

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## Zarvan

Thorough Pro said:


> NO It's not doing so well. The good thing was that POF created a new 'license produced" segment besides very expensive HK MP5 and pretty expensive locally workshop produced clones from kits or imported parts. POF entered at a comparatively low price ($1499) range with genuine 2nd push pin (hinged lower), good build quality, and superb functional reliability but it really sucked at finishing and some times misaligned sight tree, and tube. Once the market was established Turkish made MP-5's entered the market with better finish and sight alignment etc and is now dominating that segment. That is what happens when you enter a market without proper home work and for temporary gains.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes we knew what we wanted but how can you say that we wanted that for entire 600,000 soldiers and not only 30 or 50 or 100k strong strike force?


Sir we are going to replace the Gun for entire Army. @balixd Sir please you are needed here and also @DESERT FIGHTER @



Thorough Pro said:


> NO It's not doing so well. The good thing was that POF created a new 'license produced" segment besides very expensive HK MP5 and pretty expensive locally workshop produced clones from kits or imported parts. POF entered at a comparatively low price ($1499) range with genuine 2nd push pin (hinged lower), good build quality, and superb functional reliability but it really sucked at finishing and some times misaligned sight tree, and tube. Once the market was established Turkish made MP-5's entered the market with better finish and sight alignment etc and is now dominating that segment. That is what happens when you enter a market without proper home work and for temporary gains.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes we knew what we wanted but how can you say that we wanted that for entire 600,000 soldiers and not only 30 or 50 or 100k strong strike force?[/QUhttp://men.c4defence.com/Agenda/fnss-signs-agreement-with-oman-/543/1OTE]





Thorough Pro said:


> NO It's not doing so well. The good thing was that POF created a new 'license produced" segment besides very expensive HK MP5 and pretty expensive locally workshop produced clones from kits or imported parts. POF entered at a comparatively low price ($1499) range with genuine 2nd push pin (hinged lower), good build quality, and superb functional reliability but it really sucked at finishing and some times misaligned sight tree, and tube. Once the market was established Turkish made MP-5's entered the market with better finish and sight alignment etc and is now dominating that segment. That is what happens when you enter a market without proper home work and for temporary gains.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes we knew what we wanted but how can you say that we wanted that for entire 600,000 soldiers and not only 30 or 50 or 100k strong strike force?


Sir Pakistan is looking for NEW STANDARD ASSAULT RIFLE for its Army. In Army terms it means a Gun on which every soldier is trained and carries it. @Thorough Pro


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## Thorough Pro

Thank you for educating me, I didn't know that. by the way how many types of guns does PA currently use? and why would it want for every single individual soldier to use the same type?

Even if I accept what you are saying that PA wants one single type for the whole army, it will take approximately 7+ years to accomplish that due to financial constraints and manufacturing capability. Let's do a calculated guess how many guns can be produced on a single plant with lets say 3 complete lines? 100 guns per line per day that would be 300 guns per day, for 300 work-day year that would come to 90,000 guns a year and 630,000 in 7 years provided there are zero stoppages on account of material unavailability, machine breakdowns, preventive maintenance, power disruptions, natural calamities, financial constraints, spare shortages, manpower issues, etc. etc. 




Zarvan said:


> Sir Pakistan is looking for NEW STANDARD ASSAULT RIFLE for its Army. In Army terms it means a Gun on which every soldier is trained and carries it. @Thorough Pro


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## Zarvan

Thorough Pro said:


> Thank you for educating me, I didn't know that. by the way how many types of guns does PA currently use? and why would it want for every single individual soldier to use the same type?
> 
> Even if I accept what you are saying that PA wants one single type for the whole army, it will take approximately 7+ years to accomplish that due to financial constraints and manufacturing capability. Let's do a calculated guess how many guns can be produced on a single plant with lets say 3 complete lines? 100 guns per line per day that would be 300 guns per day, for 300 work-day year that would come to 90,000 guns a year and 630,000 in 7 years provided there are zero stoppages on account of material unavailability, machine breakdowns, preventive maintenance, power disruptions, natural calamities, financial constraints, spare shortages, manpower issues, etc. etc.


Yes we use many kind of Guns but G3 is considered stand assault rifle of Pakistan Army.


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## Arsalan

Paksanity said:


> This is why I am inclined towards Zastava M-21 and Ak-103. More I think about it more logical such choices seem. Who gives a rats *** how a rifle looks or how good the outer finish is. If it fires under adverse conditions, can be field maintained by the simple 'kaka sepoy' and hits it mark, I'm perfectly fine with it. Don't you think?
> 
> 
> 
> I have a feeling we might end up with Ak or Zastava. You do want those -35s don't you?


I agree with the looks part. I am also pretty sure that army wont be making a decision based on looks. A force with our budget need to use the available resources at hand in the best possible fashion. I understand how much almost everyone here like a new modern weapon system to be inducted with the whole army but considering all things, that wont be happening anytime soon. Instead we are more likely to see a couple of different gins being inducted for different roles/mission profiles and handed over to the relevant units/forces. Ideally, we will love a new modern assault rifle to equip whole army, theoretically it also do not looks like a very big deal as we are surely going for a home production in case we do but when you look at the whole picture, the gins are not THE MOST hot issue right now. 
All said, if we are going for a new gun in limited number, we may see the best option available, no compromise!!


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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> I agree with the looks part. I am also pretty sure that army wont be making a decision based on looks. A force with our budget need to use the available resources at hand in the best possible fashion. I understand how much almost everyone here like a new modern weapon system to be inducted with the whole army but considering all things, that wont be happening anytime soon. Instead we are more likely to see a couple of different gins being inducted for different roles/mission profiles and handed over to the relevant units/forces. Ideally, we will love a new modern assault rifle to equip whole army, theoretically it also do not looks like a very big deal as we are surely going for a home production in case we do but when you look at the whole picture, the gins are not THE MOST hot issue right now.
> All said, if we are going for a new gun in limited number, we may see the best option available, no compromise!!


Off course looks don't matter but still all sources are telling that FN SCAR is leading the trials. In fact it's leading massively.

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## Zarvan




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## Zarvan




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## RAMPAGE

@Dazzler @balixd @DESERT FIGHTER

Any idea what's the unit cost of Gen III MINI-14 monocular IoP?


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## Zarvan

RAMPAGE said:


> @Dazzler @balixd @DESERT FIGHTER
> 
> Any idea what's the unit cost of Gen III AN/PVS-5C from IoP?


What is that ?


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## RAMPAGE

Zarvan said:


> What is that ?


Google kar lai bhai ...


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## Zarvan




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## Zarvan




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## farhan_9909

Ye medical corps main officer ko bhi ye scar milegi agar select ho gye.


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## SecularNationalist

Ak 12 of course.
The maintenance costs will be low as compared to other rifles and this descendant of a legendary AK-47 will never betray you in a hour of need.


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## Zarvan

SecularNationalist said:


> Ak 12 of course.
> The maintenance costs will be low as compared to other rifles and this descendant of a legendary AK-47 will never betray you in a hour of need.



We are not even testing AK-12. 5 Guns are in trials and hopefully FN SCAR would win

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## farhan_9909

I have the feeling that either zastava or bren will win.


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## SecularNationalist

Zarvan said:


> We are not even testing AK-12. 5 Guns are in trials and hopefully FN SCAR would win


And where exactly did you get that info?



Zarvan said:


> We are not even testing AK-12. 5 Guns are in trials and hopefully FN SCAR would win


Ak 103 is in the list.That should be chosen and let,s start a new relationship with russia for our own good.Time to leave NATO and the west.
http://quwa.org/2016/03/21/rifle-will-pakistan-army-choose/


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## iLION12345_1

@Zarvan , sir I think your in love with SCAR-H , you haven't even called any of ther other guns "considerable". no offense . We wouldn't have chosen scar if we couldn't afford it but we should also discuss about " cost effectiveness " . It's not all just guns and not all just saving money .


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## SecularNationalist

Pakistan's choice most logically should be AK 103, SCAR is expensive and based on alloys and polymer can't handle rough jobs. and more importantly SCAR service life is quite less as compares to AK variants.


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## iLION12345_1

^ like many others have mentioned before sir , we wouldn't have tried scar if we couldn't afford it , it is more advanced ( and expensive though ) then all the other guns , but then again it's nit the gun that matters , it's the man behind it .

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## Path-Finder

I hate to say this but this thread is now @Zarvan personal wish thread 
................................


SecularNationalist said:


> Pakistan's choice most logically should be AK 103, SCAR is expensive and based on alloys and polymer can't handle rough jobs. and more importantly SCAR service life is quite less as compares to AK variants.


No you are thinking it wrong first there are two calibers that the army is keeping 7.62x39 and 7.62x51! then two rifles for the role are being considered as well AK103 is x39 and SCAR is x51. SCAR is the latest technology, Engineering and expert gunsmith by FN and will replace the Eugene Stoner designed AR platform from the US service, it is that good!


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## iLION12345_1

Path-Finder said:


> I hate to say this but this thread is now @Zarvan personal wish thread
> ................................
> No you are thinking it wrong first there are two calibers that the army is keeping 7.62x39 and 7.62x51! then two rifles for the role are being considered as well AK103 is x39 and SCAR is x51. SCAR is the latest technology, Engineering and expert gunsmith by FN and will replace the Eugene Stoner designed AR platform from the US service, it is that good!


Totally agree to the first part sir , and yes , our army needs 7.62 , it help with the forest terrain .


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## RAMPAGE

I hope all rifles come with holographic/Red-dot sights. Should be developed by IoP. Hoping that they'll also order as many Gen III Mini-14 monoculars from IoP as they can.


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> I hate to say this but this thread is now @Zarvan personal wish thread
> ................................
> No you are thinking it wrong first there are two calibers that the army is keeping 7.62x39 and 7.62x51! then two rifles for the role are being considered as well AK103 is x39 and SCAR is x51. SCAR is the latest technology, Engineering and expert gunsmith by FN and will replace the Eugene Stoner designed AR platform from the US service, it is that good!


Yes I am supporter of FN SCAR because it's best Gun in the world. Still Army is not going to decide on what I think, but they are going to decide on How Guns perform in trials. Fortunately even in those trials FN SCAR is doing best. 
@iLION12345_1 


iLION12345_1 said:


> @Zarvan , sir I think your in love with SCAR-H , you haven't even called any of ther other guns "considerable". no offense . We wouldn't have chosen scar if we couldn't afford it but we should also discuss about " cost effectiveness " . It's not all just guns and not all just saving money .


Sir going for a Gun is at least 40 year investment sorry but all other Guns in trials specially AK-103 and Serbian Gun will be outdated within next 15 years so we better select best because we have to use a Gun for next 40 years. 
@balixd @Path-Finder

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Yes I am supporter of FN SCAR because it's best Gun in the world. Still Army is not going to decide on what I think, but they are going to decide on How Guns perform in trials. Fortunately even in those trials FN SCAR is doing best.
> @iLION12345_1
> 
> Sir going for a Gun is at least 40 year investment sorry but all other Guns in trials specially AK-103 and Serbian Gun will be outdated within next 15 years so we better select best because we have to use a Gun for next 40 years.
> @balixd @Path-Finder
> 
> View attachment 303217


The world is running on hope and I hope your wish comes true

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## iLION12345_1

@Zarvan I have nothing against scar , and I never said it was a bad gun ( it's the best one in the trials ) but , you look like you're in love with it sir . Lol

But after all is said and done , scar is the coolest looking gun here , maybe they should call it SCARY-H.

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## Zarvan

iLION12345_1 said:


> @Zarvan I have nothing against scar , and I never said it was a bad gun ( it's the best one in the trials ) but , you look like you're in love with it sir . Lol
> 
> But after all is said and done , scar is the coolest looking gun here , maybe they should call it SCARY-H.


Off course I am in love with SCAR this thing is more beautiful than any beautiful women in the world.


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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> What is that ?


I hope he do not tells you otherwise you may end up claiming that "sources" have told you that Pakistan is also going to buy AN/PVS-5C  
Just kidding friend!
It is a night vision goggle

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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> I hope he do not tells you otherwise you may end up claiming that "sources" have told you that Pakistan is also going to buy AN/PVS-5C
> Just kidding friend!
> It is a night vision goggle


I don't have much knowledge about Gun accessories but I know one thing we need to stop running after USA and get things from Turkey and China. Turkey has good company which makes great quality scopes and binoculars. As for sources I have few and right now my focus is to get info Gun trials and to know about status of AL KHALID II project. I hope to get news soon.


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## SecularNationalist

@Zarvan 
The SCAR-H failed the mud test


Embedded media from this media site is no longer available

Now see the Ak-103 torture test 


Embedded media from this media site is no longer available

It,s no surprise that when it comes to ruggedness and reliability no rifle can beat the russian AK variants. 
We have a huge army and buying Ak-103 will be cost effective and in the long term the maintenance costs will almost be close to zero.


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## Amaa'n

RAMPAGE said:


> @Dazzler @balixd @DESERT FIGHTER
> 
> Any idea what's the unit cost of Gen III MINI-14 monocular IoP?


yesterday i read your post but couldn't respond, that NVG you were talking about, these things are expensive man, even the Gen 1 is retailing for 600$ forget about the Gen III --- the price for that PVS5C has to be 2000$ / unit 
& this monocular - well a good scope costs 3000$ approx, so it ain't cheap



RAMPAGE said:


> I hope all rifles come with holographic/Red-dot sights. Should be developed by IoP. Hoping that they'll also order as many Gen III Mini-14 monoculars from IoP as they can.


remind me where are we going to use those ---- in CQBs there is no use for those -- for high altitude manned posts I see them being put to good use

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## Immanuel

From the bunch of rifles being tested, its clear the AK will be the one that passes all the trials, it will also be reasonably priced, most likely the weapon of choice. SCAR and HK versions are great rifles but in the case of harsh requirements of Pak or India, AK or something home grown is a better option. It's no shocker that even the rifles India tested failed though SCAR and HK were not in the list. Even proven, reliable rifles like the Israeli ACE failed in our trials.


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## Amaa'n

Zarvan said:


> Yes I am supporter of FN SCAR because it's best Gun in the world. Still Army is not going to decide on what I think, but they are going to decide on How Guns perform in trials. Fortunately even in those trials FN SCAR is doing best.
> @iLION12345_1
> 
> Sir going for a Gun is at least 40 year investment sorry but all other Guns in trials specially AK-103 and Serbian Gun will be outdated within next 15 years so we better select best because we have to use a Gun for next 40 years.
> @balixd @Path-Finder
> 
> View attachment 303217


tell me something --- and you have all the resources in the world available to you ----- please tell me what is so ground breaking in SCAR - H that it is going to serve us good for next 4 decades and what is not good or what are the flaws in other designs that they are only good for next 15 years???

HOW??? please, i have nothing against FN, i think its a great weapon, we chose a great gun in its time when we picked G3 ---- but your claims are really fanboyish ----
so you have to back up your claims -----

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## RAMPAGE

balixd said:


> yesterday i read your post but couldn't respond, that NVG you were talking about, these things are expensive man, even the Gen 1 is retailing for 600$ forget about the Gen III --- the price for that PVS5C has to be 2000$ / unit
> & this monocular - well a good scope costs 3000$ approx, so it ain't cheap
> 
> 
> remind me where are we going to use those ---- in CQBs there is no use for those -- for high altitude manned posts I see them being put to good use


Yes, That is the retail price in civilian market but I was wondering about IoP's manufacturing cost for Mini-!4. Is there a big difference?

They're bound to come in handy on the eastern as well as the western border.


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## Bratva

RAMPAGE said:


> Yes, That is the retail price in civilian market but I was wondering about IoP's manufacturing cost for Mini-!4. Is there a big difference?
> 
> They're bound to come in handy on the eastern as well as the western border.



Due to cost constrains, It's better it gets introduced in SPEC OPS in limitied numbers. Just as 4 tube NVG is in limited use in American Tier 1 Special forces instead of regular soldiers.



> Each elite soldier on the raid was issued a pair of $65,000 four-tube night-vision goggles (NVGs),SEAL Team Six member Matt Bissonnette writes in his book "No Easy Day."
> 
> Bissonnette participated in the May 2nd, 2011 raid on the compound in which the Al Qaeda chief was killed.
> 
> "Unlike some of the conventional units, we had NVG's with four tubes instead of the usual two. This allowed us a field of view of 120 degrees instead of just 40 degrees. The standard goggles were like looking through toilet paper tubes," Bissonette writes.

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## Amaa'n

RAMPAGE said:


> Yes, That is the retail price in civilian market but I was wondering about IoP's manufacturing cost for Mini-!4. Is there a big difference?
> 
> They're bound to come in handy on the eastern as well as the western border.


for civies the price is a little bit on the higher side --- but when you purchase in bulk, it comes down, and i have quoted the approx / unit price when bought in bulk -----
we do not have the capacity to manufacture Scopes in house yet, lens are pretty delicate, nor we have researched in this sector hence we will have to make the purchase from overseas vendor



Bratva said:


> Due to cost constrains, It's better it gets introduced in SPEC OPS in limitied numbers. Just as 4 tube NVG is in limited use in American Tier 1 Special forces instead of regular soldiers.


don't put extra burden on Annual Budget -----  ------

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## Bratva

balixd said:


> for civies the price is a little bit on the higher side --- but when you purchase in bulk, it comes down, and i have quoted the approx / unit price when bought in bulk -----
> we do not have the capacity to manufacture Scopes in house yet, lens are pretty delicate, nor we have researched in this sector hence we will have to make the purchase from overseas vendor
> 
> 
> don't put extra burden on Annual Budget -----  ------



Money recovered from recent corruption busts in Army would be enough for the down-payment

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## Irfan Baloch

balixd said:


> tell me something --- and you have all the resources in the world available to you ----- please tell me what is so ground breaking in SCAR - H that it is going to serve us good for next 4 decades and what is not good or what are the flaws in other designs that they are only good for next 15 years???


He likes it
just like I like it
and that is that. from practical point of view the AK-47 derivative under trial maybe the best


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## Zarvan

Immanuel said:


> From the bunch of rifles being tested, its clear the AK will be the one that passes all the trials, it will also be reasonably priced, most likely the weapon of choice. SCAR and HK versions are great rifles but in the case of harsh requirements of Pak or India, AK or something home grown is a better option. It's no shocker that even the rifles India tested failed though SCAR and HK were not in the list. Even proven, reliable rifles like the Israeli ACE failed in our trials.


I have serious doubts about the Guns India tested and that all of them failed. As for FN SCAR from accuracy to less recoils to lots of othet things FN SCAR clearly leads in every aspect. I love Guns and in these times FN SCAR without any doubt is the best Battle Rifle in the world



balixd said:


> yesterday i read your post but couldn't respond, that NVG you were talking about, these things are expensive man, even the Gen 1 is retailing for 600$ forget about the Gen III --- the price for that PVS5C has to be 2000$ / unit
> & this monocular - well a good scope costs 3000$ approx, so it ain't cheap
> 
> 
> remind me where are we going to use those ---- in CQBs there is no use for those -- for high altitude manned posts I see them being put to good use


Yes they are way expensive. In one video which I posted the man says Scar H coated him 3000 dollars and the scope he was using was 2000 dollars.


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## Immanuel

Zarvan said:


> I have serious doubts about the Guns India tested and that all of them failed. As for FN SCAR from accuracy to less recoils to lots of othet things FN SCAR clearly leads in every aspect. I love Guns and in these times FN SCAR without any doubt is the best Battle Rifle in the world
> 
> 
> Yes they are way expensive. In one video which I posted the man says Scar H coated him 3000 dollars and the scope he was using was 2000 dollars.



India tested the Galil ACE, CZ Bren, A new variant of the Colt M-4 and Sig. All respectable rifles, they all demonstrated shortcomings during extensive trials in the field. These rifles had to pass rigorous tests including changing of calibers. Trials were conducted in the Thar, Siachen, Jungles of the east etc.

FN SCAR I agree is indeed the best, after firing it during my trip to the US, I personally fell in love with it and the FNX .45 pistol. However, what works very well in basic tests might fail in extensive field tests. The Rifle is expensive but the scopes don't have to cost as much, aimpoints are not as expensive.


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## Zarvan

Immanuel said:


> India tested the Galil ACE, CZ Bren, A new variant of the Colt M-4 and Sig. All respectable rifles, they all demonstrated shortcomings during extensive trials in the field. These rifles had to pass rigorous tests including changing of calibers. Trials were conducted in the Thar, Siachen, Jungles of the east etc.
> 
> FN SCAR I agree is indeed the best, after firing it during my trip to the US, I personally fell in love with it and the FNX .45 pistol. However, what works very well in basic tests might fail in extensive field tests. The Rifle is expensive but the scopes don't have to cost as much, aimpoints are not as expensive.


I have serious questions on transparency of these trials conducted by India and I seriously doubt that all Guns failed in trials. As for tests what I know is FN SCAR is being tested in real scenario I mean it's in the field going on real trials @balixd @Irfan Baloch

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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> I don't have much knowledge about Gun accessories but I know one thing we need to stop running after USA and get things from Turkey and China. Turkey has good company which makes great quality scopes and binoculars. As for sources I have few and right now my focus is to get info Gun trials and to know about status of AL KHALID II project. I hope to get news soon.


It is not a gun accessory. 
I did not said gun scope/sight or binoculars. 
These are NVGs sir.


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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> It is not a gun accessory. I did not said gun scope of binoculars. These are NVGs sir.


Well SSG should have but for normal in factory good scope to use in night or Dark should be good enough


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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> Well SSG should have but for normal in factory good scope to use in night or Dark should be good enough


Again, where did anyone said that we are buying it for "normal" or even for SSG?
Zarvan why are you going through half posts and assuming something all by yourself and making comments based on that assumption? 
PLEASE REFRAIN FROM CREATING SENSATION OUT OF NOTHING. No one was talking about the troops that you call "normal" or even SSG buying these NVGs.The problem is that it wont end here. If not stopped now, you may end up claiming that your sources confirm that we are buying these NVGs and the who knows that by " sources:" you are actually just referring to my post. Please stop such child like behavior and creating hype.

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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> Again, where did anyone said that we are buying it for "normal" or even for SSG?
> Zarvan why are you going through half posts and assuming something all by yourself and making comments based on that assumption?
> PLEASE REFRAIN FROM CREATING SENSATION OUT OF NOTHING. No one was talking about the troops that you call "normal" or even SSG buying these NVGs.The problem is that it wont end here. If not stopped now, you may end up claiming that your sources confirm that we are buying these NVGs and the who knows that by " sources:" you are actually just referring to my post. Please stop such child like behavior and creating hype.


I never said about my source I don't know what this thing is but if it's good and if our Special Forces need this than I hope they get them and get the best ones in market. My only hope is that FN SCAR is selected as Pakistan's new standard Assault Rifle. Last for accessories related to Gun like night vision stuff we need to start getting them from Turkey or China instead of asking USA to give them to us.


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## Immanuel

Zarvan said:


> I have serious questions on transparency of these trials conducted by India and I seriously doubt that all Guns failed in trials. As for tests what I know is FN SCAR is being tested in real scenario I mean it's in the field going on real trials @balixd @Irfan Baloch



Why the serious questions? Replacing the INSAS is long overdue and the trials were conducted over a couple of years in various regions. All the guns failed, some were good in certain regions while others weren't. Places like Siachen and very wet regions in East of India can be a real challenge for the best of rifles. If one of the gun passed the trials, they would have ordered them right away.


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## Zarvan

Immanuel said:


> Why the serious questions? Replacing the INSAS is long overdue and the trials were conducted over a couple of years in various regions. All the guns failed, some were good in certain regions while others weren't. Places like Siachen and very wet regions in East of India can be a real challenge for the best of rifles. If one of the gun passed the trials, they would have ordered them right away.


Indians have long history for inductions done wrongly 2nd best things selected so I have serious questions on How India did the trials

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## Zarvan




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## django

Zarvan said:


> I have serious doubts about the Guns India tested and that all of them failed. As for FN SCAR from accuracy to less recoils to lots of othet things FN SCAR clearly leads in every aspect. I love Guns and in these times FN SCAR without any doubt is the best Battle Rifle in the world
> 
> 
> Yes they are way expensive. In one video which I posted the man says Scar H coated him 3000 dollars and the scope he was using was 2000 dollars.


@Zarvan Now I presume if we select the SCAR we will manufacture them internally, can you be certain that the SCAR produced in Pakistan will be of the same standard as the ones produced in Belgium, as good as this weapon is ,it is composed of composites and is internally more complex than Ak derivatives, I suspect a cheap yet reliable weapon which will be easily reproduced like the serbian gun will be inducted as Soldiers of the Pak army are used to this type of weapon ergonomically due to experience with type 56, SCAR may well be purchased off the shelf in batches for SSG only.

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## Zarvan

django said:


> @Zarvan Now I presume if we select the SCAR we will manufacture them internally, can you be certain that the SCAR produced in Pakistan will be of the same standard as the ones produced in Belgium, as good as this weapon is ,it is composed of composites and is internally more complex than Ak derivatives, I suspect a cheap yet reliable weapon which will be easily reproduced like the serbian gun will be inducted as Soldiers of the Pak army are used to this type of weapon ergonomically due to experience with type 56, SCAR may well be purchased off the shelf in batches for SSG only.


Yes because as company policy states company will help its customer in setting up the entire infrastructure for production of this Gun.

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## Thorough Pro

Don't waste your time with people whose only criteria of a "good" weapon is looks




balixd said:


> tell me something --- and you have all the resources in the world available to you ----- please tell me what is so ground breaking in SCAR - H that it is going to serve us good for next 4 decades and what is not good or what are the flaws in other designs that they are only good for next 15 years???
> 
> HOW??? please, i have nothing against FN, i think its a great weapon, we chose a great gun in its time when we picked G3 ---- but your claims are really fanboyish ----
> so you have to back up your claims -----


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## Zarvan

Thorough Pro said:


> Don't waste your time with people whose only criteria of a "good" weapon is looks


HK-417 has also good looks but I still support FN SCAR also USA Guns have good looks still I support SCAR. Sir SCAR is way ahead because of its accuracy because of less recoil because of its range. And I can go on and on @Thorough Pro


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## DESERT FIGHTER

RAMPAGE said:


> @Dazzler @balixd @DESERT FIGHTER
> 
> Any idea what's the unit cost of Gen III MINI-14 monocular IoP?



Old brochure from institute of optronics,Pak.


Well I don't know the current price .. But we bought a NATO one couple of years back from Peshawar for around 25k... Now you won't find jack in Peshawar ..

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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> Yes because as company policy states company will help its customer in setting up the entire infrastructure for production of this Gun.


Which company policy are you talking about? Can you please guide me to that?



Zarvan said:


> HK-417 has also good looks but I still support FN SCAR also USA Guns have good looks still I support SCAR. Sir SCAR is way ahead because of its accuracy because of less recoil because of its range. And I can go on and on @Thorough Pro


What range and accuracy? Can you please provide some comparision so everyone can see that?


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## Quwa

Arsalan said:


> Which company policy are you talking about? Can you please guide me to that?


FN Herstal (no bearing on my personal choice - weighing more on the side of BREN 2)
http://www.fnherstal.com/primary-menu/products-capabilities/transfer-of-technology.html

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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> Which company policy are you talking about? Can you please guide me to that?
> 
> 
> What range and accuracy? Can you please provide some comparision so everyone can see that?


The company that makes FN SCAR that designed and developed FN SCAR. As for range FN SCAR manages to hit target up to KM with lot more accuracy than other Guns not to forget far less recoil as compared to other Guns.

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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> The company that makes FN SCAR that designed and developed FN SCAR. As for range FN SCAR manages to hit target up to KM with lot more accuracy than other Guns not to forget far less recoil as compared to other Guns.


Well i requested that can you guide me to that policy or company statement. @ Zarvan i am sorry for doing this again but i feel you are guilty of creating hype and sensation out of nothing. The thing that you are stating as company policy is that FN have the ABILITY to help its customers manufacture or maintain the guns at operational readiness. It is no where stated that they will come and build a factory in Pakistan and we will make guns here. That will be a business deal, things that are to be finalized in the CONTRACT. It is not COMPANY POLICY that whoever will buy there gun they will make sure the manufacture it at home, that is absurd!!

Let us not make it sounds as things which are obvious. That is not the case. The problem here is that you are giving the wrong impression to others, you are not using the words but looking at the post it seem like you are INFORMED that FN have agreed to set up shop here in POF. we are YEARS away from any such thing. Let us keep it that way please. No need to create unwanted sensation from the whole development. Consider this a request from a fellow member.



Quwa said:


> FN Herstal (no bearing on my personal choice - weighing more on the side of BREN 2)
> http://www.fnherstal.com/primary-menu/products-capabilities/transfer-of-technology.html


Any particular reasons sir? What about the Russian options? I thigh the reliability, easy maintenance and rugged use would have given them a considerable advantage in eye of PA but that do not seems to be the case.

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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> Well i requested that can you guide me to that policy or company statement. @ Zarvan i am sorry for doing this again but i feel you are guilty of creating hype and sensation out of nothing. The thing that you are stating as company policy is that FN have the ABILITY to help its customers manufacture or maintain the guns at operational readiness. It is no where stated that they will come and build a factory in Pakistan and we will make guns here. That will be a business deal, things that are to be finalized in the CONTRACT. It is not COMPANY POLICY that whoever will buy there gun they will make sure the manufacture it at home, that is absurd!!
> 
> Let us not make it sounds as things which are obvious. That is not the case. The problem here is that you are giving the wrong impression to others, you are not using the words but looking at the post it seem like you are INFORMED that FN have agreed to set up shop here in POF. we are YEARS away from any such thing. Let us keep it that way please. No need to create unwanted sensation from the whole development. Consider this a request from a fellow member.
> 
> 
> Any particular reasons sir? What about the Russian options? I thigh the reliability, easy maintenance and rugged use would have given them a considerable advantage in eye of PA but that do not seems to be the case.


Sir FN is a private company Sir. Yes it would take permission from Belgium Government but final decision rests with the company and the company is more than ready to transfer the technology to its customers I don't know what issues you have Sir


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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> Sir FN is a private company Sir. Yes it would take permission from Belgium Government but final decision rests with the company and the company is more than ready to transfer the technology to its customers I don't know what issues you have Sir


So is Lockheed Martin, i hope you are aware of the process of getting F16 from them, the troubles we have faced in the past, hope you have heard of the "lost decade"

Sir the private company is not more then ready to transfer technology to its customers for free. It depends on the customer, depends upon relations between governments, the contract drafts, the negotiations, the money involved and a dozen other similar factors. If they write it on there website, it do not means that anyone who will buy the gun will get the tech for sure. I am sure you can comprehend that.

The issue i have is that you are trying to make it sound that it is confirmed that;

FN is the gun we ARE buying

It IS confirmed that we ARE buying it for whole army
A deal is confirmed that includes in-house manufacturing.
Nothing can be further from the truth.

My issue is that any new person will be miss guided and my request is that we try and keep the facts straight. Trails are on going, you sources (that i wont challenge) may have information that FN SCAR is doing best. But that is about it. Anything further is merely speculation as of now, let us not try to present that as a fact. This is my issue sir!

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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> So is Lockheed Martin, i hope you are aware of the process of getting F16 from them, the troubles we have faced in the past, hope you have heard of the "lost decade"
> 
> Sir the private company is not more then ready to transfer technology to its customers for free. It depends on the customer, depends upon relations between governments, the contract drafts, the negotiations, the money involved and a dozen other similar factors. If they write it on there website, it do not means that anyone who will buy the gun will get the tech for sure. I am sure you can comprehend that.
> 
> The issue i have is that you are trying to make it sound that it is confirmed that;
> 
> FN is the gun we ARE buying
> 
> It IS confirmed that we ARE buying it for whole army
> A deal is confirmed that includes in-house manufacturing.
> Nothing can be further from the truth.
> 
> My issue is that any new person will be miss guided and my request is that we try and keep the facts straight. Trails are on going, you sources (that i wont challenge) may have information that FN SCAR is doing best. But that is about it. Anything further is merely speculation as of now, let us not try to present that as a fact. This is my issue sir!


Sir what I know is SCAR is selected than Pakistan would get it with TOT and the company which designs and produces SCAR also made it clear that they are ready to help set up its customers production plants for the Gun


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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> Sir what I know is SCAR is selected than Pakistan would get it with TOT and the company which designs and produces SCAR also made it clear that they are ready to help set up its customers production plants for the Gun


Sir this is what you claim to "know", *mention it like this*, tell people that this is what you "think" or "know" and not as a fact. Because as long as you are not the chair person of the committee that will finalize the deal,, what you know is just that, "what YOU know" and not a "fact". Portraying what you feel or know as a "company policy" will just miss guide people. 

Brother, i do not want to sound offensive but i know i am, however i do hope that you will get my message and will understand my point.


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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> Sir this is what you claim to "know", *mention it like this*, tell people that this is what you "think" or "know" and not as a fact. Because as long as you are not the chair person of the committee that will finalize the deal,, what you know is just that, "what YOU know" and not a "fact". Portraying what you feel or know as a "company policy" will just miss guide people.
> 
> Brother, i do not want to sound offensive but i know i am, however i do hope that you will get my message and will understand my point.


I never said what I am telling is finally I am just telling on what information I get. And the latest information is that FN SCAR is doing great in the trials and it's not only being tested with other Guns but it's be in tested in real life situation. I mean against beloved TTP and BLA morons.


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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> I never said what I am telling is finally I am just telling on what information I get. And the latest information is that FN SCAR is doing great in the trials and it's not only being tested with other Guns but it's be in tested in real life situation. I mean against beloved TTP and BLA morons.



I know you have not SAID that,, the issue as i pointed is that you make it sound like it. 

Anyway, which ongoing operation against BLA have seen FN SCAR deployed sir?


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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> I know you have not SAID that,, the issue as i pointed is that you make it sound like it.
> 
> Anyway, which ongoing operation against BLA have seen FN SCAR deployed sir?


Some FN SCAR are given to SSG and they are using them in operations in Baluchistan but mainly against TTP current operations.

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## django

Zarvan said:


> Some FN SCAR are given to SSG and they are using them in operations in Baluchistan but mainly against TTP current operations.


If their are any pics they would be greatly appreciated.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

django said:


> If their are any pics they would be greatly appreciated.








Could be for testing purposes..

Operations against BLA are conducted by SOW not SSG.

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## django

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> View attachment 303454
> 
> Could be for testing purposes..
> 
> Operations against BLA are conducted by SOW not SSG.


I think this is more likely a firing range judging from the layout, the clean uniform of the soldier etc btw SOW is ?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

django said:


> I think this is more likely a firing range judging from the layout, the clean uniform of the soldier etc btw SOW is ?



Special operations wings... Element of FC..

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## Path-Finder

Arsalan said:


> Well i requested that can you guide me to that policy or company statement. @ Zarvan i am sorry for doing this again but i feel you are guilty of creating hype and sensation out of nothing. The thing that you are stating as company policy is that FN have the ABILITY to help its customers manufacture or maintain the guns at operational readiness. It is no where stated that they will come and build a factory in Pakistan and we will make guns here. That will be a business deal, things that are to be finalized in the CONTRACT. It is not COMPANY POLICY that whoever will buy there gun they will make sure the manufacture it at home, that is absurd!!
> 
> Let us not make it sounds as things which are obvious. That is not the case. The problem here is that you are giving the wrong impression to others, you are not using the words but looking at the post it seem like you are INFORMED that FN have agreed to set up shop here in POF. we are YEARS away from any such thing. Let us keep it that way please. No need to create unwanted sensation from the whole development. Consider this a request from a fellow member.
> 
> 
> Any particular reasons sir? What about the Russian options? I thigh the reliability, easy maintenance and rugged use would have given them a considerable advantage in eye of PA but that do not seems to be the case.


You are fighting a uphill battle against one persons hyper fanboy-ism which has tainted this thread completely I urge Mods to do some spring cleaning on this thread and lets get back to discussing each rifles upon their select distinct traits like we were doing 20 or so pages back.


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> You are fighting a uphill battle against one persons hyper fanboy-ism which has tainted this thread completely I urge Mods to do some spring cleaning on this thread and lets get back to discussing each rifles upon their select distinct traits like we were doing 20 or so pages back.


Sir other than being cheaper can you please point out one other aspect in which others Guns are better. All the Gun experts in the world declare FN SCAR best battle Rifle in the world in all aspects. But for some reason some people here think that all those people are fools and I am being a crazy fan which I proudly am.
@Irfan Baloch


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Sir other than being cheaper can you please point out one other aspect in which others Guns are better. All the Gun experts in the world declare FN SCAR best battle Rifle in the world in all aspects. But for some reason some people here think that all those people are fools and I am being a crazy fan which I proudly am.
> @Irfan Baloch


I am in no better position than your self to decide what is better! now we can have wishes and hopes but ultimately the decision lies with the organisation who will use it if selected! FN is the best? FN is good it has a revolutionary design and gunsmithing in it, But if another rifle comes down the road by another manufacturer that is better than FN will you then fall head over heals for that as well? There is being a crazy fan and then there is going to be over the top. now the rest of us are facing pages upon pages of singular postings that are assassinated by FN SCAR for those who wish to discuss other rifles.


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## iLION12345_1

Path-Finder said:


> I am in no better position than your self to decide what is better! now we can have wishes and hopes but ultimately the decision lies with the organisation who will use it if selected! FN is the best? FN is good it has a revolutionary design and gunsmithing in it, But if another rifle comes down the road by another manufacturer that is better than FN will you then fall head over heals for that as well? There is being a crazy fan and then there is going to be over the top. now the rest of us are facing pages upon pages of singular postings that are assassinated by FN SCAR for those who wish to discuss other rifles.





Zarvan said:


> Sir other than being cheaper can you please point out one other aspect in which others Guns are better. All the Gun experts in the world declare FN SCAR best battle Rifle in the world in all aspects. But for some reason some people here think that all those people are fools and I am being a crazy fan which I proudly am.
> @Irfan Baloch


GIRLS GIRLS your both pretty , now please stop fighting , @zaravn I admit scar is good , but that doesn't mean it will surely win , and I have no problem with you liking it sir , but it's nothing to fight over , if you support it then plz keep your fanboy self out of here sir ( I hope u don't take any offense sir , I'm just new here)

Only time ( and a very rough and long competition by the Pak army ) will decide which gun wins ! May the best gun win ( I alRedy know what sir zaravan is gonna reply to this )


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## Quwa

Arsalan said:


> Any particular reasons sir? What about the Russian options? I thigh the reliability, easy maintenance and rugged use would have given them a considerable advantage in eye of PA but that do not seems to be the case.


I was a bit ambivalent to the BREN at first, but seeing how CZ greatly improved the design between the BREN 805 and BREN 806, I think there is a case to be made that the company (CZ) knows how to take real-world experience and then shape that into an improved product in relatively quick order. 

Moreover, CZ's changes to the BREN 1 (which resulted in the BREN 2) were borne out of experience in Afghanistan; it's not often we get a tacit iteration based on real world experience so soon.

Beyond that, I was impressed by the modular chamber design of the BREN. With a few adjustments the same core rifle design can be adapted from 5.56 NATO to 7.62x39mm and even 7.62 NATO.

I know the venerable Russian designs are rock-solid, but if we want to scale a single design as widely as possible, a legitimate argument can be made towards going for a multi-chamber'able design such as the BREN or SCAR. We can invest in the one rifle, and then distribute it to practically every military service arm, law enforcement agency, and paramilitary unit in the country (over a period of several decades of course).

Between the SCAR and the BREN, the BREN is cheaper, but still very good in its own right. Moreover, we could perhaps link the BREN to a large enough purchase of Meopta sights and other optics technology, perhaps produce those under license at home as well.

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## Zarvan

Is this picture from tests going on in Pakistan ???? @balixd @kaonalpha @Horus @Tipu7 @Sulman Badshah

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## All-Green

We need to focus on high value for money and licensed production of weapons in Pakistan.

This is a huge and costly project we are talking about which shall span a decade so even a middle tier weapon in this list can be better for us if we negotiate excellent purchase contract terms with its supplier and we are also given license/expertise to produce the weapon in Pakistan.

We can always use SCAR for Special forces as we are currently doing. 
It is one of the most expensive weapons in this list, so no need to push for it unless the terms of purchase are excellent and licensed production in Pakistan is also authorized.

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## kaonalpha

Zarvan said:


> Is this picture from tests going on in Pakistan ???? @balixd @kaonalpha @Horus @Tipu7 @Sulman Badshah


Yes rather it is picture of the day ,these weapons were displayed to the COAS.

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## Zarvan

kaonalpha said:


> Yes rather it is picture of the day ,these weapons were displayed to the COAS.


I am a genius than. I found this picture on facebook Sir thanks for confirming it by the way they are not SCAR. These are CZ BREN


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## Arsalan

Quwa said:


> I was a bit ambivalent to the BREN at first, but seeing how CZ greatly improved the design between the BREN 805 and BREN 806, I think there is a case to be made that the company (CZ) knows how to take real-world experience and then shape that into an improved product in relatively quick order.
> 
> Moreover, CZ's changes to the BREN 1 (which resulted in the BREN 2) were borne out of experience in Afghanistan; it's not often we get a tacit iteration based on real world experience so soon.
> 
> Beyond that, I was impressed by the modular chamber design of the BREN. With a few adjustments the same core rifle design can be adapted from 5.56 NATO to 7.62x39mm and even 7.62 NATO.
> 
> I know the venerable Russian designs are rock-solid, but if we want to scale a single design as widely as possible, a legitimate argument can be made towards going for a multi-chamber'able design such as the BREN or SCAR. We can invest in the one rifle, and then distribute it to practically every military service arm, law enforcement agency, and paramilitary unit in the country (over a period of several decades of course).
> 
> Between the SCAR and the BREN, the BREN is cheaper, but still very good in its own right. Moreover, we could perhaps link the BREN to a large enough purchase of Meopta sights and other optics technology, perhaps produce those under license at home as well.


Thanks for sharing your views in such detail. I hope that these will be useful for others as well sir.

I agree that while FN have more experience in the field, CZ seem be getting the most of there own experience. 806 was an improved version based on the feedback of units that used it in war. It was implemented quickly and CZ came up with an improved gun to address whatever little issues were there. With some little modifications of our own over the time, we will end up with an excellent rifle surely. The prices is a HUGE plus for a force like ours as well.

Regarding the changing caliber, what is important that we can keep the main mechanism same and still be able to offer in different caliber to meet different unit requirements. The battle field changing capability might not be THAT important. As long as we can keep the main machine same and offer different caliber guns from production.

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## Amaa'n

Zarvan said:


> Is this picture from tests going on in Pakistan ???? @balixd @kaonalpha @Horus @Tipu7 @Sulman Badshah


nope



kaonalpha said:


> Yes rather it is picture of the day ,these weapons were displayed to the COAS.


this picture is not from the trails man ---

to both of you --- at first we never received these weapons with these sights second thing to consider is the barrel length ---- again we did not receive these in this set up ----
last and the foremost important thing --- we were testing this weapon in 7.62 x 39 Calibre ----- that ammo in the box is 5.56 x 45 ---- look at the neck length of those rounds and the dia of projectile ---- definitely 556

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## Sulman Badshah

Pic is not from Paksitan trials 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/651756611061551104

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## mustafa erkan

why didnt pakistan invite turkish mpt-76 and chinese weapons?


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## Amaa'n

Sulman Badshah said:


> Pic is not from Paksitan trials
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/651756611061551104


you do realize you just broke @Zarvan 's heart --- he actually believed for once he was a genius

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## Zarvan

balixd said:


> you do realize you just broke @Zarvan 's heart --- he actually believed for once he was a genius


Never mind by the way can you tell How many types of tests are their I read some where that new Guns go through salt and other tests any idea what are these ?


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## Amaa'n

Zarvan said:


> Never mind by the way can you tell How many types of tests are their I read some where that new Guns go through salt and other tests any idea what are these ?


There is Mud test, weapon is submerged into the mud for prolong period --- 12hours or so , taken out, without cleaning fired ----
you submerge the weapon in salt water to monitor the corrosion time frame ---- and fire
there is sand test ---- there is cold water test ---- in Pistol trails, they frooze the pistols at -41c for 6 hours, removed the weapon and fired it ----- there is a drop test ----- you have dry fire test ----- in this test weapons dry fired --- means no cartridge inside the weapon ---- this measures the strength of firing pin ----- if i recall correctly, in pistol trails, they did this for like 3000 times?
There is test where charging handle is racked many many and many time --- like 4000
the list is very long ------ for reference you can look up Nato Standard firearm test -----

the above mentioned tests were conducted for Pistol trails held at Kharain in 2014 / 2015

btw my above post on you for just leg pulling ...... meant no offense

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## Zarvan

balixd said:


> There is Mud test, weapon is submerged into the mud for prolong period --- 12hours or so , taken out, without cleaning fired ----
> you submerge the weapon in salt water to monitor the corrosion time frame ---- and fire
> there is sand test ---- there is cold water test ---- in Pistol trails, they frooze the pistols at -41c for 6 hours, removed the weapon and fired it ----- there is a drop test ----- you have dry fire test ----- in this test weapons dry fired --- means no cartridge inside the weapon ---- this measures the strength of firing pin ----- if i recall correctly, in pistol trails, they did this for like 3000 times?
> There is test where charging handle is racked many many and many time --- like 4000
> the list is very long ------ for reference you can look up Nato Standard firearm test -----
> 
> the above mentioned tests were conducted for Pistol trails held at Kharain in 2014 / 2015
> 
> btw my above post on you for just leg pulling ...... meant no offense


No offence taken Sir by the way How man Guns I mean How many FN SCAR and How many ARX-200 and others are in trials ?


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## Amaa'n

Zarvan said:


> No offence taken Sir by the way How man Guns I mean How many FN SCAR and How many ARX-200 and others are in trials ?


no idea on that --- but i believe could be 5 atleast --- because one test requires for Parts interchangeability ---- we cant do that if they are just 1 or 2 rifles

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## Arsalan

balixd said:


> nope
> 
> 
> this picture is not from the trails man ---
> 
> to both of you --- at first we never received these weapons with these sights second thing to consider is the barrel length ---- again we did not receive these in this set up ----
> last and the foremost important thing --- we were testing this weapon in 7.62 x 39 Calibre ----- that ammo in the box is 5.56 x 45 ---- look at the neck length of those rounds and the dia of projectile ---- definitely 556


mein tu ab darta bolta he naii hoon ka log naraz hoon gy,,
Thanks for clarifying it sir!

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## RAMPAGE

mustafa erkan said:


> why didnt pakistan invite turkish mpt-76 and chinese weapons?


Of course we invited MKEK. @balixd ?


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## Path-Finder

Quwa said:


> I was a bit ambivalent to the BREN at first, but seeing how CZ greatly improved the design between the BREN 805 and BREN 806, I think there is a case to be made that the company (CZ) knows how to take real-world experience and then shape that into an improved product in relatively quick order.
> 
> Moreover, CZ's changes to the BREN 1 (which resulted in the BREN 2) were borne out of experience in Afghanistan; it's not often we get a tacit iteration based on real world experience so soon.
> 
> Beyond that, I was impressed by the modular chamber design of the BREN. With a few adjustments the same core rifle design can be adapted from 5.56 NATO to 7.62x39mm and even 7.62 NATO.
> 
> I know the venerable Russian designs are rock-solid, but if we want to scale a single design as widely as possible, a legitimate argument can be made towards going for a multi-chamber'able design such as the BREN or SCAR. We can invest in the one rifle, and then distribute it to practically every military service arm, law enforcement agency, and paramilitary unit in the country (over a period of several decades of course).
> 
> Between the SCAR and the BREN, the BREN is cheaper, but still very good in its own right. Moreover, we could perhaps link the BREN to a large enough purchase of Meopta sights and other optics technology, perhaps produce those under license at home as well.


MEOPTA is the reason Why I like BREN their Lens are even used in Aimpoints thats how good their glass is. Same with Beretta they own Steiner a giant in optics. a package deal like this is a winner!

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## Zarvan

RAMPAGE said:


> Of course we invited MKEK. @balixd ?


No they weren't invited. 14 companies wanted to come including them but we chose only 5 to test.


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## RAMPAGE

Zarvan said:


> No they weren't invited. 14 companies wanted to come including them but we chose only 5 to test.


Why? Who told you this?


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## Zarvan

RAMPAGE said:


> Why? Who told you this?


No idea why but news is true. May be @balixd can shed some light on this


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## Amaa'n

RAMPAGE said:


> Of course we invited MKEK. @balixd ?





Zarvan said:


> No idea why but news is true. May be @balixd can shed some light on this


We did invite some companies but there were reservations over the endurance of these rifles hence we picked on the renowned brands......if you look at the vendor lost, each of them are a legend in there own......and as said by zarvan we wanted a long lasting weapon.......hence they were not selected.......



Arsalan said:


> mein tu ab darta bolta he naii hoon ka log naraz hoon gy,,
> Thanks for clarifying it sir!


No problem sir,

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## iLION12345_1

Any idea how long theses tests will take ? I'm tired of seeing g3s in my gaurds hands 
Btw what about Mg3 are we replacing that someday and what are we planning on doing with the type 56 and 81, and lastly , I have heard many people saying that our army uses type 56 a lot , but as far as I have seen , I have only seen one type 56 held by an Pak army personnel ever , all the other guns ppl keep calling ak47s( without saying variants ) and type 56s are actually type 81s look at the slits in the barrels and the stock, they are type 81s!


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## slayerAqib

Horus said:


> SCAR 17 would be my pick, its modular, adaptable, ergonomic, light weight and it comes in a lot of variants and barrel lengths, grenade launchers etc
> 
> It will be cheaper when mass produced in Pakistan. It will also satisfy most of our DMR, SBR requirements and its compact variant can replace our MP-5s.



With respect sir i think Pakistan should create their own bullbpup design which is light and compact, reliable, adaptable, short in length (increasing maneuverability), variety of barrels and barrels length and be able to accept various type of ammo like the 6.5 mm Grendel which is an excellent cartridge size to use (light, yet hard hitting, fast bullet as compared to other cartridges)


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## Zarvan

slayerAqib said:


> With respect sir i think Pakistan should create their own bullbpup design which is light and compact, reliable, adaptable, short in length (increasing maneuverability), variety of barrels and barrels length and be able to accept various type of ammo like the 6.5 mm Grendel which is an excellent cartridge size to use (light, yet hard hitting, fast bullet as compared to other cartridges)


I think majority of our Army boys don't like bullpup design. As for designing our own Gun it's a big risk and when you can get your hands on FN SCAR no body is going to design its own Gun.

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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> No offence taken Sir by the way How man Guns I mean How many FN SCAR and How many ARX-200 and others are in trials ?





balixd said:


> no idea on that --- but i believe could be 5 atleast --- because one test requires for Parts interchangeability ---- we cant do that if they are just 1 or 2 rifles



And here i though that someone was claiming that there sources confirm that the gunS are being used in battlefield and trails are going at testing ranges and different troops are testing in different conditions in the battle field. It sounded like a couple of hundred have been acquired and are operation with different units in different situations. 

This happens when one start quoting Facebook messages as VERIFIED FACTS FROM SOURCES and that is what i have been making a lot of noise about in this thread. LET US KNOT GET AHEAD OF OURSELVES, lets not create hype and sensation out of nothing,, i mean, lets not be *GEO*!!

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## Bratva

Arsalan said:


> And here i though that someone was claiming that there sources confirm that the gunS are being used in battlefield and trails are going at testing ranges and different troops are testing in different conditions in the battle field. It sounded like a couple of hundred have been acquired and are operation with different units in different situations.
> 
> This happens when one start quoting Facebook messages as VERIFIED FACTS FROM SOURCES and that is what i have been making a lot of noise about in this thread. LET US KNOT GET AHEAD OF OURSELVES, lets not create hype and sensation out of nothing,, i mean, lets not be *GEO*!!



how much hype was created over haider MBT and how it turned out to be.


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## Amaa'n

Arsalan said:


> And here i though that someone was claiming that there sources confirm that the gunS are being used in battlefield and trails are going at testing ranges and different troops are testing in different conditions in the battle field. It sounded like a couple of hundred have been acquired and are operation with different units in different situations.
> 
> This happens when one start quoting Facebook messages as VERIFIED FACTS FROM SOURCES and that is what i have been making a lot of noise about in this thread. LET US KNOT GET AHEAD OF OURSELVES, lets not create hype and sensation out of nothing,, i mean, lets not be *GEO*!!


Really!!!! that is hilarious, this is never the case Janab --- a standard practice across the world, there is a series of test, each article is put through paces to measure durability ------ initially when weapons arrived they were at Kharain --- latter when COAS visited, weapons were moved to PoF ---- one wonders which Battefield is at POF 
as said above by you, the exact reason I pulled out of the thread, all lot of gossip was going around ---- better to sit tight and wait for official sources ------



Bratva said:


> how much hype was created over haider MBT and how it turned out to be.


Yara tanks were actually tested in ranges ---- idk why they dropped the idea ----- it all went dead since the trails ----



iLION12345_1 said:


> Any idea how long theses tests will take ? I'm tired of seeing g3s in my gaurds hands
> Btw what about Mg3 are we replacing that someday and what are we planning on doing with the type 56 and 81, and lastly , I have heard many people saying that our army uses type 56 a lot , but as far as I have seen , I have only seen one type 56 held by an Pak army personnel ever , all the other guns ppl keep calling ak47s( without saying variants ) and type 56s are actually type 81s look at the slits in the barrels and the stock, they are type 81s!


and you should continue to see the same G3 in your Guards' hands --- those are getting replaced for next few years ----- replacement is a veryyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy lengthy process

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## Arsalan

Bratva said:


> how much hype was created over haider MBT and how it turned out to be.


exactly!!
two wrongs wont make it one right now!! Our fan boys should learn from that mistake and many others like that. I still remember the U214s!!



balixd said:


> Really!!!! that is hilarious, this is never the case Janab --- a standard practice across the world, there is a series of test, each article is put through paces to measure durability ------ initially when weapons arrived they were at Kharain --- latter when COAS visited, weapons were moved to PoF ---- one wonders which Battefield is at POF
> as said above by you, the exact reason I pulled out of the thread, all lot of gossip was going around ---- better to sit tight and wait for official sources ------


As i said, mein tu ab darta bolta he nai hoon ka log naraz hooty han


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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> And here i though that someone was claiming that there sources confirm that the gunS are being used in battlefield and trails are going at testing ranges and different troops are testing in different conditions in the battle field. It sounded like a couple of hundred have been acquired and are operation with different units in different situations.
> 
> This happens when one start quoting Facebook messages as VERIFIED FACTS FROM SOURCES and that is what i have been making a lot of noise about in this thread. LET US KNOT GET AHEAD OF OURSELVES, lets not create hype and sensation out of nothing,, i mean, lets not be *GEO*!!


Well that I stand with. FN SCAR is being used in real time fights If I don't know exactly How many Guns are participating that doesn't they are not being use in battlefield


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## Arsalan

iLION12345_1 said:


> Any idea how long theses tests will take ? I'm tired of seeing g3s in my gaurds hands
> *Btw what about Mg3 are we replacing that someday and what are we planning on doing with the type 56 and 81*, and lastly , I have heard many people saying that our army uses type 56 a lot , but as far as I have seen , I have only seen one type 56 held by an Pak army personnel ever , all the other guns ppl keep calling ak47s( without saying variants ) and type 56s are actually type 81s look at the slits in the barrels and the stock, they are type 81s!



How do you purpose to replace a belt fed general purpose machine gun that is MG3 with an assault rifle that is Type 56? 
Even the LMG version of Type 56 is a magazine fed fun and in no way comparable to MG3.

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## Amaa'n

Zarvan said:


> Well that I stand with. FN SCAR is being used in real time fights If I don't know exactly How many Guns are participating that doesn't they are not being use in battlefield


Give me one instance...and i will believe you.......am not even asking for a photo, just share s the story....and back it with logic and facts

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## Path-Finder

balixd said:


> Give me one instance...and i will believe you.......am not even asking for a photo, just share s the story....and back it with logic and facts


Et Tu, Brute


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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> Well that I stand with. FN SCAR is being used in real time fights If I don't know exactly How many Guns are participating that doesn't they are not being use in battlefield


But if there were only 5 guns that were brought, you still think they found there way to battlefield? 
Are you suggesting that we got around 5 10 guns of all five different types and handed them to our troops to test in battle field? still keeping a few for testing range tests and evaluation? That will essentially means 2--3 men out there with the guns in name of field testing? fighting it out on the battle filed. What is it sir? a joke?

I have never heard of evaluation like this ever and i am quote confident that it is NOT because lack of my knowledge. 

Battle field trails MAY take place but only once we have decided on one or two options based on the more customary tests in the range. Like the mud, water, sand, heat and cold temperature tests etc. Then we MAY go for a few hundred guns, make them operations with a few units. It DO NOT HAPPENS LIKE THIS that we will give three guns to our jawans and kick them out to fight the battle so that we will make a decision what these three men have to say about the gun.

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## Zarvan




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## Zarvan

@balixd Sir has 6th Gun arrived or not ?


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## iLION12345_1

O


Arsalan said:


> How do you purpose to replace a belt fed general purpose machine gun that is MG3 with an assault rifle that is Type 56?
> Even the LMG version of Type 56 is a magazine fed fun and in no way comparable to MG3.


I think you got my post wrong sir , it had 2 points one. Are we replacing MG3? Two . What are we going to do with the type 56s and 81s ? And about the same point I asked that type 81 is better then type 56 , and many people say that we use it m but when u ask them for proof they send in pictures of type 81s and pretty much everyone thinks they are type 56 , 81 has slits in its barrel and a different stock does no body notice that in the pics ?

Well I know that replacing our battle rifle is good and all , but all we are discussing is the guns , how do you think the soldiers would react to the new weapon and how good would they use it ,I've seen that many of our soldiers who haven't been to combat much hate G3s and want them replaced , mainly because it's too heavy to stand guard with , but the soldiers that are fighting , they would rather have a scope and a few other things in g3s then a new gun , but I have to admit , our soldiers are good and I'm sure they will be happy with the replacement . *Say goodbye to your G3s soldiers !*


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## Arsalan

iLION12345_1 said:


> O
> I think you got my post wrong sir , it had 2 points one. Are we replacing MG3? Two . What are we going to do with the type 56s and 81s ? And about the same point I asked that type 81 is better then type 56 , and many people say that we use it m but when u ask them for proof they send in pictures of type 81s and pretty much everyone thinks they are type 56 , 81 has slits in its barrel and a different stock does no body notice that in the pics ?
> 
> Well I know that replacing our battle rifle is good and all , but all we are discussing is the guns , how do you think the soldiers would react to the new weapon and how good would they use it ,I've seen that many of our soldiers who haven't been to combat much hate G3s and want them replaced , mainly because it's too heavy to stand guard with , but the soldiers that are fighting , they would rather have a scope and a few other things in g3s then a new gun , but I have to admit , our soldiers are good and I'm sure they will be happy with the replacement . *Say goodbye to your G3s soldiers !*


OK, i got it now. 

And i am glad you "had to admit" that our soldiers are good. We felt so insecure without that.


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## iLION12345_1

Arsalan said:


> OK, i got it now.
> 
> And i am glad you "had to admit" that our soldiers are good. We felt so insecure without that.


Not just good , they are awsome ! ( they are the definition of cool !) lol



Arsalan said:


> But if there were only 5 guns that were brought, you still think they found there way to battlefield?
> Are you suggesting that we got around 5 10 guns of all five different types and handed them to our troops to test in battle field? still keeping a few for testing range tests and evaluation? That will essentially means 2--3 men out there with the guns in name of field testing? fighting it out on the battle filed. What is it sir? a joke?
> 
> I have never heard of evaluation like this ever and i am quote confident that it is NOT because lack of my knowledge.
> 
> Battle field trails MAY take place but only once we have decided on one or two options based on the more customary tests in the range. Like the mud, water, sand, heat and cold temperature tests etc. Then we MAY go for a few hundred guns, make them operations with a few units. It DO NOT HAPPENS LIKE THIS that we will give three guns to our jawans and kick them out to fight the battle so that we will make a decision what these three men have to say about the gun.


Exactly sir , there are no _*Feild tests , *_maybe they will be held after this competition is over to see what the troops think , but sir can you stay a little low on scar fandom now ? Please ? ( nobody's gonna ask you that nicely sir XD)

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## Zarvan




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## RAMPAGE

Zarvan said:


>


You're going to make us all hate SCAR. 

@Horus @waz @HRK

Someone needs to ban Zarvan from this thread, For his own good.

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## Zarvan

RAMPAGE said:


> You're going to make us all hate SCAR.
> 
> @Horus @waz @HRK
> 
> Someone needs to ban Zarvan from this thread, For his own good.



If my posting of videos is the reason for you to like or hate some Gun than I can do nothing about it. As for SCAR it's great Gun and one of the best Battle Rifles in the world and I want Pakistan Army to have best weapons with them.

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## Arsalan

iLION12345_1 said:


> Exactly sir , there are no _*Feild tests , *_maybe they will be held after this competition is over to see what the troops think , but sir can you stay a little low on scar fandom now ? Please ? ( nobody's gonna ask you that nicely sir XD)


I have been trying to bring THE FANS back to reality. Perhaps there is some other miss communication.


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## Cool_Soldier

Brothers, anything final yet?


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## iLION12345_1

Zarvan said:


> If my posting of videos is the reason for you to like or hate some Gun than I can do nothing about it. As for SCAR it's great Gun and one of the best Battle Rifles in the world and I want Pakistan Army to have best weapons with them.


WE GET IT SIR ITS A GOOD GUN , PLZ NO MORE FANDOM HERE


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## Zarvan

Cool_Soldier said:


> Brothers, anything final yet?


Nothing but hope to hear about the winner in IDEAS 2016

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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> Nothing but hope to hear about the winner in IDEAS 2014


2016,, IDEAS 2016.

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## Kompromat

CZ-806 Bren-2 undergoing tests.

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## Zarvan

Horus said:


> CZ-806 Bren-2 undergoing tests.
> View attachment 304313


Do you have pictures of other Guns in trials ?


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## iLION12345_1

Horus said:


> CZ-806 Bren-2 undergoing tests.
> View attachment 304313


Looks so cool any other pics ?
Btw just wanted to ask , how many do you are actually In Any branch of the Pakistan armed forces ( only asking the Pakistanis here )


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## Zarvan

iLION12345_1 said:


> Looks so cool any other pics ?
> Btw just wanted to ask , how many do you are actually In Any branch of the Pakistan armed forces ( only asking the Pakistanis here )


Not many and many also don't want to reveal it.


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## slayerAqib

Just because they say that these 5 guns were undergoing tests does not mean that you shouldn't look at other guns to look at for the adoption of the Pakistani army



Zarvan said:


> Not many and many also don't want to reveal it.


imagine that in full auto the recoil would be very significant !!!!!!!


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## Zarvan

slayerAqib said:


> Just because they say that these 5 guns were undergoing tests does not mean that you shouldn't look at other guns to look at for the adoption of the Pakistani army
> 
> 
> imagine that in full auto the recoil would be very significant !!!!!!!


Well 14 companies wanted to come we chose 5 so we have something in mind before inviting them. As for recoil SCAR has least recoil among all the Guns in the market


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## Quwa

Horus said:


> CZ-806 Bren-2 undergoing tests.
> View attachment 304313


Yep - looks like the 7.62x39mm version.


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## Shadeslayer

How long does this process usually last from start to end?
I mean we're talking about
a) Evaluating guns for almost every climatic/ weather conditions.
b) Testing them.
c) Buying them unless, Insh Allah we get the rights to locally produce them.
d) Issuing them to the world's 7th largest army.
e) Training the said army for the new weapon.

I'm pretty sure it won't be something that can be done in a year or two. Any ideas?


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## slayerAqib

Zarvan said:


> Well 14 companies wanted to come we chose 5 so we have something in mind before inviting them. As for recoil SCAR has least recoil among all the Guns in the market



what do you think about a 6.5 mm Grendel version of an hk 416 with parts from the Kalashnikov to upgrade it's reliability and durability



Zarvan said:


>


recoil to strong







watch the video


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## Zarvan

slayerAqib said:


> what do you think about a 6.5 mm Grendel version of an hk 416 with parts from the Kalashnikov to upgrade it's reliability and durability
> 
> 
> recoil to strong
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> watch the video


FN SCAR has least recoil among all 7.62 Guns



slayerAqib said:


> what do you think about a 6.5 mm Grendel version of an hk 416 with parts from the Kalashnikov to upgrade it's reliability and durability
> 
> 
> recoil to strong
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> watch the video


Reporting is wrong about M4 and M16. USA has selected FN SCAR to replace M4 and M16. As for Russian Gun they don't come even close to defeating FN SCAR in any way.

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## kaonalpha

We are getting close to a finalist.

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## Zarvan

kaonalpha said:


> View attachment 304581
> 
> 
> We are getting close to a finalist.


Sir which Gun are in finals ? I am really hoping for FN SCAR. Will we hear about winner during IDEAS 2016


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## kaonalpha

Zarvan said:


> Sir which Gun are in finals ? I am really hoping for FN SCAR. Will we hear about winner during IDEAS 2016


Patience. Time will tell

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## Zarvan

kaonalpha said:


> Patience. Time will tell


Patience is only thing I don't have right now. By the way any other new things we should expect during IDEAS 2016 ????


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## kaonalpha

Zarvan said:


> Patience is only thing I don't have right now. By the way any other new things we should expect during IDEAS 2016 ????


Not sure. I more concerned that we get our air defence by next year.

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## RAMPAGE

kaonalpha said:


> Not sure. I more concerned that we get our air defence by next year.


Any idea about the range, speed and max altitude? Any specific system?


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## kaonalpha

RAMPAGE said:


> Any idea about the range, speed and max altitude? Any specific system?


Like I said before we have opted for the hq-16 and the umkhonto missile defense system. But the finalization for the 1 LOWMAD regiment is yet to be decided.

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## RAMPAGE

kaonalpha said:


> Like I said before we have opted for the hq-16 and the umkhonto missile defense system. But the finalization for the 1 LOWMAD regiment is yet to be decided.


Which variant of Umkhonto? If it is possible, I would like to know the specifications for this Umkhonto variant and those of this LOWMAD system.

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## Quwa

kaonalpha said:


> Like I said before we have opted for the hq-16 and the umkhonto missile defense system. But the finalization for the 1 LOWMAD regiment is yet to be decided.


Would seem that the Umkhonto would fit with LOMADS (lo-medium air defence system). Even though Umkhonto IR has a range of 20km, the system is scalable, Denel is working on an active radar homing (ARH) version that could reach 30km and an extended-range version touch 60km.

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## kaonalpha

RAMPAGE said:


> Which variant of Umkhonto? If it is possible, I would like to know the specifications for this Umkhonto variant and those of this LOWMAD system.


For the LOWMAD or ly-80 as it is known will reach somewhere between December and January. Umkhonto remains still a mystery . It is the IR enhanced version.

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## RAMPAGE

kaonalpha said:


> For the LOWMAD or ly-80 as it is known will reach somewhere between December and January. Umkhonto remains still a mystery . It is the IR enhanced version.


You're referring to the Umkhonto ER-IR with 20 km range, 30 km with booster?

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## kaonalpha

RAMPAGE said:


> You're referring to the Umkhonto ER-IR with 20 km range, 30 km with booster?


Yes


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## Sulman Badshah

Zastava M-21

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## Wolfhound

Zarvan said:


> Reporting is wrong about M4 and M16. *USA has selected FN SCAR to replace M4 and M16.* As for Russian Gun they don't come even close to defeating FN SCAR in any way.


The reporting is actually correct, The USA has not opted FN Scar or any other rifle for the replacement of the M4, instead the Fn Scar and HK416 are both being used in small numbers by their special forces only. The HK416 or more appropriately its variant the M27 is replacing the M249 as a more maneuverable Squad automatic weapon or S.A.W


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## slayerAqib

Zarvan said:


> FN SCAR has least recoil among all 7.62 Guns
> 
> 
> Reporting is wrong about M4 and M16. USA has selected FN SCAR to replace M4 and M16. As for Russian Gun they don't come even close to defeating FN SCAR in any way.


it's called the ak 12 how do you know if it's good or not , if you don't know what it it's called !!!


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## Sven

Zarvan said:


> Reporting is wrong about M4 and M16. USA has selected FN SCAR to replace M4 and M16.



No, this is wrong. The M16A4 is being replaced with the M4.







The M16A4 will be moved to reserve stocks or used in non-combat Army and Marine units to protect critical instillations and for training purposes.

There has been no decision or tender rendered on the fate of the M4 or M16A4 in US service.


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## Zarvan

Wolfhound said:


> The reporting is actually correct, The USA has not opted FN Scar or any other rifle for the replacement of the M4, instead the Fn Scar and HK416 are both being used in small numbers by their special forces only. The HK416 or more appropriately its variant the M27 is replacing the M249 as a more maneuverable Squad automatic weapon or S.A.W


USA has opted for SCAR and HK-417 is not even in trials. 

@Sven I know it's called AK-12 and it's not that good


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## Sven

Zarvan said:


> USA has opted for SCAR



No it hasn't. SCAR is in service with USSOCOM and several domestic police agencies include Customs and Border Enforcement's OAM, but it is not standard issue anywhere in the United States.







And it's not exclusively SCAR, as the HK416 is also used by US special forces.






SCAR was NOT!!!!! selected to replace the M4 or M16A4 in the United States Armed Forces.

Let's see a source that says otherwise. I work for the US Navy, it didn't happen and it's not happening.



Zarvan said:


> USA has opted for SCAR and HK-417 is not even in trials.
> 
> @Sven I know it's called AK-12 and it's not that good



I think you tagged the wrong person here.

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## Zarvan




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## Zarvan

Probably the best overall .308 battle rifle made currently. Using modern production methods, the FN 17S is the civilian version of the combat proven FN SCAR Mk 17. It was purpose built to fight wars. Most remarkable is its reasonably carry weight, a huge advantage in any tactical system. Granted you only get a relatively thin 16" barrel but as you will see in this detailed review, it does not handicap. Years of testing the 17S are shown in many video clips as I discuss the POU, reliability, quality/construction, ergos, accessories, and much more on the 17S system. Accuracy is impressive with match ammo. Value is diminished however due to its insane $2600 price tag and many other .excellent 308 options have been reviewed here. But if you can get past the price of this expensive platform it unlikely you will be unhappy with your choice. Highly recommended.////////////////Nutnfancy Likability Scale: 8 of 10 [1.5 pts deducted for ridiculously high price, .5 deducted b. no 18" made available to civilians]////////////////Show your support of the best and most independent Tactical Channel in the world: patches, shirts, hats, shell casings at

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## _NOBODY_

Zarvan said:


> Probably the best overall .308 battle rifle made currently. Using modern production methods, the FN 17S is the civilian version of the combat proven FN SCAR Mk 17. It was purpose built to fight wars. Most remarkable is its reasonably carry weight, a huge advantage in any tactical system. Granted you only get a relatively thin 16" barrel but as you will see in this detailed review, it does not handicap. Years of testing the 17S are shown in many video clips as I discuss the POU, reliability, quality/construction, ergos, accessories, and much more on the 17S system. Accuracy is impressive with match ammo. Value is diminished however due to its insane $2600 price tag and many other .excellent 308 options have been reviewed here. But if you can get past the price of this expensive platform it unlikely you will be unhappy with your choice. Highly recommended.////////////////Nutnfancy Likability Scale: 8 of 10 [1.5 pts deducted for ridiculously high price, .5 deducted b. no 18" made available to civilians]////////////////Show your support of the best and most independent Tactical Channel in the world: patches, shirts, hats, shell casings at


FN Scar also has many variants which further increases its chances of winning this competition. Lets hope the best one wins IN SAH ALLAH.

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## Zarvan

TheGreatOne said:


> FN Scar also has many variants which further increases its chances of winning this competition. Lets hope the best one wins IN SAH ALLAH.


On Arab defence forums their are rumours that which ever Gun will be chosen by Pakistan that Gun will also be chosen by Saudi Arabia.

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## django

Zarvan said:


> On Arab defence forums their are rumours that which ever Gun will be chosen by Pakistan that Gun will also be chosen by Saudi Arabia.


Perhaps if what you say about the production of these rifles is correct, then we can sell Pakistani produced SCAR to our Gulf brothers.

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## Zarvan

django said:


> Perhaps if what you say about the production of these rifles is correct, then we can sell Pakistani produced SCAR to our Gulf brothers.


It's and no way we would have tested SCAR or Berreta ARX-200 without making sure we have money to pay for it.

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## Sulman Badshah

Zarvan said:


> On Arab defence forums their are rumours that which ever Gun will be chosen by Pakistan that Gun will also be chosen by Saudi Arabia.


which forum


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## Zarvan




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## PAR 5

I sincerely believe that POF will come up in the next few months with an assault rifle design of its own for the Army just like it has assembled the new Sniper Rifle for the Army.

This could mean severe disappointment for all those who have invested time, money and efforts in offering the rifles mentioned above to the Army for trials.

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## Zarvan

PAR 5 said:


> I sincerely believe that POF will come up in the next few months with an assault rifle design of its own for the Army just like it has assembled the new Sniper Rifle for the Army.
> 
> This could mean severe disappointment for all those who have invested time, money and efforts in offering the rifles mentioned above to the Army for trials.


That's not going to happen. We would have no tested these Guns in first place if we were planning to do that. One of these 5 Guns in trials would be selected as Pakistan's future assault rifle


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## Zarvan

*The 4 Best Scopes for Scar 17 – Optic Reviews 2016*
Posted by Reloader Addict · Leave a comment
Photo by Keary O. / CC BY

The Scar 17 is one of the most modern, heavy hitting battle rifles out there. Designed by FN and marketed to the Special Operation community, the SCAR 17 has the ergonomics of an assault rifle but with the powerful .308 chambering. Because the Scar 17 is a precise rifle, it needs a good quality optic to take advantage of its max range. The 7.62 NATO/ .308 Winchester round is a heavyweight quite unlike the dainty 5.56mm. This means any optic topping the Scar 17 needs to be strong and resistant to recoil. A good optic needs to compliment the Scar and take advantage of its seamless ability to transition from a designated marksman rifle to a hard hitting close-quarters battle weapon.

Here, in our humble opinion, are the 4 best Scopes for Scar 17 rifles:

Trijicon ACOG BR .308







Acog 3.5 X 35 Scope Dual Illuminated Crosshair .308 Ballistic Reticle, Green
Price: $1,206.08



If money were no object, this is the best scope for Scar 17 period. The Trijicon ACOG is well known for its military use on standard M4 and M16 rifles. However, these rifles are chambered in the 5.56mm, and the reticle and bullet drop compensator is ineffective on the .308 round. A Scar 17 needs the ACOG BR .308 (the BR stands for ballistic reticle). This ACOG by Trijicon is specifically tailored for the .308 round and takes bullet drop into account. This is in the form of a BDC that shows the user where the exact holdover is for certain ranges.


The Trijicon ACOG (see full specs) has a 3.5x level of magnification and a 35mm objective lens. The model comes with either a green or red reticle that is illuminated but completely battery free. The scope uses a combination of tritium and fiber optics to absorb light and provide internal illumination.

The optic is nearly a pound and 8 inches in length so it’s no slouch in the size department. However, the Trijicon ACOG optics are known for their last lasting durability and bulletproof strength. The ACOG brand has proven itself through two wars and a decade of experience. This is an optic even a Marine can’t break. The Trijicon ACOG compliments a Scar 17 very well and allows the rifle to act as both a close quarters and ranged battle rifle.

Vortex Viper PST







Vortex Viper PST 1-4x24 Riflescope with TMCQ MOA PST-14ST-A
Price: $459.00



Vortex is slowly making themselves a serious competitor in the world of tactical scopes. Although Vortex has been producing quality binoculars and spotting scopes for over a decade, their recent dabble into tactical rifle scopes has been met with open arms. Up until now Vortex has dealt with close range combat optics but the Viper is an attempt to reach out and touch someone . . . relatively far away, that is.


The Vortex Viper (see full specs) is a 1-4x power optic with a 24 mm objective lens. The 1-4x is a bit light of magnification, but for the Scar 17 is perfect. This allows the optic to engage at a variety of ranges and seamless transition from an overwatch role to a CQB role. In overwatch, you have a fully multi-coated lens with Vortex’s proprietary XR coating. This provides a very clear picture, with surprisingly light transmission when you factor in the small objective lens. The optic is also one piece construction which aids in increased accuracy.

When social work is required and you have to get close, you get a brightly illuminated, eye-catching reticle. The Viper is tough as nails and completely waterproof, and debris proof. The Viper Vortex is argon filled to prevent internal fogging, and the optic is shockproof. The Viper is an excellent optic that allows the rifle to shine. This is one of the best scopes for Scar 17.


Nikon M-308







Nikon M-308 4-16x42mm Riflescope w/ BDC 800 Reticle,Black
Price: $452.28



With .308 in the name of the Nikon M-308, I hardly have to explain why this optic is an excellent choice for the Scar 17. The Scar 17 is in .308, and the Nikon M-308 is made for the .308 round—it’s a match made in heaven, you can say. The Nikon M-308 is for the Scar 17 owner looking to extend their range for target shooting or hunting even. The use of semi-auto, modern sporting rifles as hunting implements is on the rise.


The Nikon M-308 features a bullet drop compensators to provide easy to use holdovers to make long range shots. This BDC allows the shooter to make shots out to 800 yards. Of course, the scope can do its job if you can do your job. The Nikon M-308 is a 4-16 power optic, which provides a good level of magnification for most shooters with a .308 rifle. The objective lens is a large 42mms.

The glass is fully multicoated, and when combined with the large objective lens provides a large amount of light transfer. The scope is rugged and reliable, perfect for field work. The scope is waterproof, shockproof, and argon filled to prevent internal fog. The Nikon M-308 is an excellent long range choice for the Scar 17.


Millet LRS-1







Millett 6-25 X 56 LRS-1 Illuminated Side Focus Tactical Riflescope (35mm Tube .25 MOA with Rings), Matte
Price: $488.49



The Millet LRS-1 is a long range rifle scope that is designed for precision shots at extended ranges. The Millet LRS-1 was designed with tactical applications and provides the user with a premium quality optic. The reticle is completely illuminated, including the Mil-dot bar reticle. The reticle is somewhat complicated but is easy to use with training. The optic allows the user to make precision shots using the elevation and windage mil dot holdovers.


The Millet LRS-1 is a big optic and is not a close range scope at all. In fact, the optic is a 6-25 power optic. This does allow the user to take some precision rifle shots, and the Scar 17 is capable of long range precision. The objective lens is 56 mm (this is huge, BTW), and when combined with the high-quality glass and fully multi-coated lenses, this optic transfers a lot of light.

The Millet LRS-1 features a shock and waterproof design, with fingertip adjustable turrets for precision adjustments. The LRS-1 fits in with the Millet brand and provides a premium option for the Scar 17. If you’d like a long-range optic, this is the best scope for Scar 17.


Conclusion – The Versatile Scar 17

Versatile—that is the word I use to describe the Scar 17. It’s functional at close, medium, and long range, and can provide long range precision or room clearing maneuverability. The Scar 17 can be fit with a multitude of different optics, and there is no wrong way to use the Scar, but there is a wrong kind of scope. That kind of scope does not take advantage of the Scar’s strengths and is often cheap, and hardly capable of withstanding the same abuse the Scar 17 can handle. Fortunately, the scopes listed here can stand the abuse and provide you with excellent target-sighting for years to come. Good luck!


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## Zarvan




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## aliaselin

I suddenly have a quesion. Will the winner replace all of the G3 and type 56 or only G3 @kaonalpha


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## DESERT FIGHTER

aliaselin said:


> I suddenly have a quesion. Will the winner replace all of the G3 and type 56 or only G3 @kaonalpha



G-3 is the standard battle rifle of PA..

AKs replaced the MP-5s.

In short new rifle will replace G-3s.

These new variants are already being used by Army & Paramil troops...

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## Zarvan

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> G-3 is the standard battle rifle of PA..
> 
> AKs replaced the MP-5s.
> 
> In short new rifle will replace G-3s.
> 
> These new variants are already being used by Army & Paramil troops...
> 
> View attachment 305142
> View attachment 305143
> View attachment 305144


Enough of this 40 year old Gun. It has served us well but it's time to say Good Bye.


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## slayerAqib

Zarvan said:


> USA has opted for SCAR and HK-417 is not even in trials.
> 
> @Sven I know it's called AK-12 and it's not that good



Do you have any reasons why you don't think ak 12 is a good gun


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## aliaselin

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> G-3 is the standard battle rifle of PA..
> 
> AKs replaced the MP-5s.
> 
> In short new rifle will replace G-3s.
> 
> These new variants are already being used by Army & Paramil troops...
> 
> View attachment 305142
> View attachment 305143
> View attachment 305144


This is why I asked this question. So in PA's experience, 7.62*51 mm is best for mountain area in Pakistan, which should be applied for our Tibet area. There should be some problem for our 5.68mm rife in these areas

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## Zarvan

aliaselin said:


> This is why I asked this question. So in PA's experience, 7.62*51 mm is best for mountain area in Pakistan, which should be applied for our Tibet area. There should be some problem for our 5.68mm rife in these areas


I didn't got your point ? Are you talking anout China in last lines ??


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## Path-Finder

aliaselin said:


> This is why I asked this question. So in PA's experience, 7.62*51 mm is best for mountain area in Pakistan, which should be applied for our Tibet area. There should be some problem for our 5.68mm rife in these areas


About 10+ years ago there was a wisper in the wind about adopting 556 there was no solid lead on it but most things start as a rumour and then facts surface. However that never happened and the heavier 762x39/51 has remained a staple which has proven to be the right choice in dealing with COIN, thus this year a new machines were purchased from China to make more 7.62x39. For x51 one can assume similar thing will happen. I think China should research a 6mm cartridge as a intermediate like the upcoming and popular 6.5 Grendel whose parent casing is 7.62x39!


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## slayerAqib

Zarvan said:


>



that's a lot of recoil to deal with ,

why can't we go for a cartridge size in the 6 mm range with a design similar to the 6.5 Grendel


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## Zarvan

slayerAqib said:


> that's a lot of recoil to deal with ,
> 
> why can't we go for a cartridge size in the 6 mm range with a design similar to the 6.5 Grendel


It has least recoil in 7.62 X 51 caliber guns. It's far more accurate and has more range than any other Gun.


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## aliaselin

Path-Finder said:


> About 10+ years ago there was a wisper in the wind about adopting 556 there was no solid lead on it but most things start as a rumour and then facts surface. However that never happened and the heavier 762x39/51 has remained a staple which has proven to be the right choice in dealing with COIN, thus this year a new machines were purchased from China to make more 7.62x39. For x51 one can assume similar thing will happen. I think China should research a 6mm cartridge as a intermediate like the upcoming and popular 6.5 Grendel whose parent casing is 7.62x39!


That would be a long story, and I doubt if 6mm would work to replace both 7.62 and 5.56.
So at the moment, the best solution should be learning from US army and PA that equip some 7.62X51mm rifle for PLA in Tibet. After some discussion with my friends, they told me there was a rifle called CS/LR14 which could use 7.62X51mm

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## Zarvan




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## Zarvan

@balixd


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## Wolfhound

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> G-3 is the standard battle rifle of PA..
> 
> AKs replaced the MP-5s.
> 
> In short new rifle will replace G-3s.
> 
> These new variants are already being used by Army & Paramil troops...
> 
> View attachment 305142
> View attachment 305143
> View attachment 305144


The new weapon will replace both the G3 and Ak47's variants, as the new weapon most likely FN scar, Bretta ARX or CZ 805 Bren are all multicaliber. Plus the AK variants only replaced the MP5's in some areas because we needed a heavier cartridge not because the AK was a better weapon in the submachine category(which it is not as it is considered a assault rifle)

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## Zarvan

Wolfhound said:


> The new weapon will replace both the G3 and Ak47's variants, as the new weapon most likely FN scar, Bretta ARX or CZ 805 Bren are all multicaliber. Plus the AK variants only replaced the MP5's in some areas because we needed a heavier cartridge not because the AK was a better weapon in the submachine category(which it is not as it is considered a assault rifle)


Well if SCAR is selected and if we produce both SCAR 16 and SCAR 17 than it would definitely replace all old Guns. As for submachine Gun man money is issue otherwise Kriss Vector is worth a look.


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## slayerAqib

Zarvan said:


> It has least recoil in 7.62 X 51 caliber guns. It's far more accurate and has more range than any other Gun.


why do we even need a a 7.62 mm caliber weapon , 6.5 mm Grendel has as much stopping power as the 7.62 except faster bullet velocity


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## Quwa

slayerAqib said:


> why do we even need a a 7.62 mm caliber weapon , 6.5 mm Grendel has as much stopping power as the 7.62 except faster bullet velocity


Is the added benefit of the 6.5mm worth the cost? Remember, POF already produces 7.62x51mm and 7.62x39mm, and it is a tried and tested caliber, such that even new rifle designs (such as the SCAR, BREN and ARX) are retaining them.


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## PAR 5

Zarvan said:


> That's not going to happen. We would have no tested these Guns in first place if we were planning to do that. One of these 5 Guns in trials would be selected as Pakistan's future assault rifle



Lets wait and see


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## Zarvan




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## Zarvan



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## slayerAqib

Quwa said:


> Is the added benefit of the 6.5mm worth the cost? Remember, POF already produces 7.62x51mm and 7.62x39mm, and it is a tried and tested caliber, such that even new rifle designs (such as the SCAR, BREN and ARX) are retaining them.



a quick question do you understand the advantages of the 6.5 mm Grendel clearly


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## Arsalan

slayerAqib said:


> a quick question do you understand the advantages of the 6.5 mm Grendel clearly


It is about the advantages of 6.5mm vs advantages of retaining the ammunition we have already in stock, in production, which we are good at, which we have tried and tested in battle field. That is what @Quwa is trying to guide you too, that is what almost everyone with any little bit real life experience of such matters will tell you. I hope you also do understand all that!!

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## Path-Finder

slayerAqib said:


> a quick question do you understand the advantages of the 6.5 mm Grendel clearly


6.5 Grendel is based on which Casing? Do you know this?

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## slayerAqib

Arsalan said:


> It is about the advantages of 6.5mm vs advantages of retaining the ammunition we have already in stock, in production, which we are good at, which we have tried and tested in battle field. That is what @Quwa is trying to guide you too, that is what almost everyone with any little bit real life experience of such matters will tell you. I hope you also do understand all that!!



are you one of dem



Arsalan said:


> It is about the advantages of 6.5mm vs advantages of retaining the ammunition we have already in stock, in production, which we are good at, which we have tried and tested in battle field. That is what @Quwa is trying to guide you too, that is what almost everyone with any little bit real life experience of such matters will tell you. I hope you also do understand all that!!



yeah but isn't the 7.62 mm round heavy, i mean with a smaller round you can carry more of them, this would force more load onto our soldiers making them less agile and more vulnerable on the battlefield

any new news about the service rifle replacement competition


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## Quwa

slayerAqib said:


> are you one of dem
> 
> 
> 
> yeah but isn't the 7.62 mm round heavy, i mean with a smaller round you can carry more of them, this would force more load onto our soldiers making them less agile and more vulnerable on the battlefield
> 
> any new news about the service rifle replacement competition


Yep - you can carry more 6.8mm rounds in a single magazine, thereby enabling you to carry less mags. The 6.8 also offers more punch than the 5.56. So it is a good round, no one was ever disputing that fact.

But it comes at a cost. For Pakistan, the cost is to basically switch out the bullets used by all 500,000 armed personnel to the new caliber, which in turn requires POF to re-tool its production, for the MoD and MoI to replace ammunition stocks, for our next rifle to be chambered for a round that the manufacturers themselves did not prepare for (so we'd have to foot R&D costs).

Despite the good offered by the 6.8mm round, even the U.S. hasn't bothered to switch over because of the added costs involved; those added costs could outweigh the round's inherent benefit. That said, if we ever come into the position of being able to make costly changes that bring us closer to perfection, then I am all for it; but we're just not there yet.

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## MastanKhan

Size comparison of short-action cartridges, left to right: (AR-10 length) .308 Winchester, 6.5mm Creedmoor,.243 Winchester, (AR-15 length) 6.5mm Grendel, .223 Remington

Hi,

A military on the whole cannot remove the .308 and go for the Grendel---it would cost much un-neccessary expenses and change.


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## Arsalan

slayerAqib said:


> are you one of dem


I am one of those who are trying to look at the bigger and fuller picture rather then going all praise based on one or two advantages. 



> yeah but isn't the 7.62 mm round heavy, i mean with a smaller round you can carry more of them, this would force more load onto our soldiers making them less agile and more vulnerable on the battlefield


Sure it is. NO ONE is saying that 6.8 wont have its advantages. The debate is about comparing and weighting advantages of both types against each other. In that case, 7.62 outweigh 6.8 by a considerable margin.* It does for Pakistan at least! *Well it did for US too but that is not the point here.

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## Path-Finder

The member who is favoring 6.5 Grendel should realize that the round is based on Soviet/Russian 7.62x39 and it has been debated that instead of purchasing this new expensive cartridge it is best to use the existing 7.62x39 as it will still deliver a heavier punch and PA is doing just that they are keeping 7.62x39 and x51 as well which is a smart move. 6.5 is being favored as a successor to 556 not 762 cartridges


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> The member who is favoring 6.5 Grendel should realize that the round is based on Soviet/Russian 7.62x39 and it has been debated that instead of purchasing this new expensive cartridge it is best to use the existing 7.62x39 as it will still deliver a heavier punch and PA is doing just that they are keeping 7.62x39 and x51 as well which is a smart move. 6.5 is being favored as a successor to 556 not 762 cartridges


Well during Army Chief visit to POF during which he was briefed about Gun trials he also inaugurated the production plant of 7.62 X 39 ammo. So POF is now producing 7.62 X 39.

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Well during Army Chief visit to POF during which he was briefed about Gun trials he also inaugurated the production plant of 7.62 X 39 ammo. So POF is now producing 7.62 X 39.


we have been producing 7.62x39 it was used heavily in operations and before, we just upgraded the machines that produced the ammunition and expanded the production as well.

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## Kurlang



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## Zarvan

Kurlang said:


>


After FN SCAR I support this Gun. Well we don't have money otherwise FN SCAR could replace G3 and also giving real 7.62 X 51 Power to Special Forces and Infantry and this Gun can replace Type 56. I wish we had at least 50 Billion dollars as our budget

@balixd


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## Zarvan

@Zahoor Raja-Jani Sir please reply here. Are those Guns which you are saying are shortlisted FN SCAR and CZ-806 BREN A2 ?
@balixd

*CZ Announces CZ 806 Bren 2 Improved Modular Assault Rifle*
Posted October 12, 2015 in Guns & Gear, News, Other Gear & Gadgets, Rifles by Nathaniel F with 48 Comments







Czech small arms manufacturer Česká zbrojovka has introduced an improved, lighter variant of its 805 Bren rifle, called the 806 Bren 2. Altair.com reports:

ADVERTISEMENT

(How much is the CZ 805 BREN?, 2014-08-16), a very large mass, poor ergonomics, as well as the bad balance of the gun during firing. CZ 805 first series production also had a very long, steady flask with uncomfortable cheek pad. Soldiers also drew attention to the negative shaped handle and tensioning levers switch. Worse yet, in contrast to almost all modern construction, the cocking lever would not stop in a rear position after using all of the cartridges in the magazine. User can also easily distribute gas system for cleaning weapons.






The new Bren 2 significantly improved ergonomics and functionality structure.Manipulators are operated intuitively and tensioning handle itself remains stationary while firing. Added a much better position flask with adjustable feet finished prominent damper / Photo: CZ

In the course of production changed, among others, flask, introduced enlarged wings switch the type of fire. In the second production batch it was decided to replace the drain chamber. Hence, the first 7737 Brenów supplied with transparent plastic magazinesconstruction CZ (can be used interchangeably with the Germanmagazine H & K G36), wypinanych lever similar to the AK. Other 9700 rifles CZ 805 (200 first series and all the other) are served with typical cartridge magazinesof M16 (Soon contract for weapons forACR, 2013-12-07). The release levers are located on both sides of the chamber drain.

The refinement of weapons involved was Colonel Josef Kopecký, the Czech commander of the 7th Mechanized Brigade, which is why he and his soldiers were the first to get acquainted with a new, refined variant of Ceska Zbrojovka carbine. October 6 at the shooting range in Bzenec presented rifles CZ 806 Bren 2 A1 and subkarabinki CZ 806 Bren 2 A2 as chief of the General Staff of ACR gen. Josef Becvarovi.

Bren 2 rifles family were announced at the DSEI arms fair in London (DSEI 2015: CZ Bren announced carbine 2, 2015-09-18). This structure formed on the basis of export varieties of CZ 807, which competed in the Indian weapon trials, canceled the program MCAR. Weapon referred to as the CZ 806 is adapted for ammunition 5.56 mm x 7.62 mm and 45 x 39, while maintaining the same drain chamber. The exchange will only be subject barrel, the castle and themagazine. In a variation of 5.56 mm would be a standard magazine M16, when the gun is supplied with the cartridge Russian model will be used for identical dimensions of the upper part of the hull.






Photo showing introduced to the CZ 806 changes. The most important include the drainage chamber and the flask, but also mentioned the gas system in the band barrels / Photo: CZ

The CZ 806 Bren 2 introduced a number of amendments requested by the soldiers using weapons. First of all _slimmed down_carbine, mainly by removing excess material with aluminum castle chambers, reducing its mass by 0.5 kg. For comparison, the mass of subkarabinka CZ 805 Bren 1 A2 280 mm barrel is 3.39 / 4.10 kg (without iron sights andmagazine / with a full magazine and sling), while his counterpart CZ 806 Bren 2 A2 of the same length barrel – only 2.76 / 2.99 kilograms.

Also redesigned from the cocking lever moving during the shot. The CZ 806 when voltage is disconnected from the breech and remains stationary in the conduct of fire. It also includes new mechanism of gas which decomposes to clean in a much simpler manner than in the model CZ 805 has also changed its setting number of two to three. CZ 806 has a new, folding on the right side of the flask with a plastic adjustable foot position. The latter ends with a prominent, removable from the shock.






CZ 806 Bren 2 has been significantly slimmed down compared to the first variant.The weapon is lighter by about 0.5 kg / Photo: CZ

The main difference between the first and the second version is changed Brena drain chamber. It is no longer a separate module shared with the magazine slot, the CZ 806 is it with him one. Pistol grip can be equipped with one of two straps, matching it better to hand the shooter size M and L. Bren 2 has a new, improved trigger. The designers of the CZ abandoned the option series 2-blasting. In the model CZ 806 switch the type of fire has only three settings: protected, fire a single and continuous fire.

The rifle changed the position of the manipulators by introducing two release levers mobile assembly from the rear position in which it remains after the last shot. The first is almost identical to the known M16, located on the left side, conveniently manipulated with the thumb of a hand putting slot magazine. The second is hidden on the front wall of the interior of the trigger guard. It is shaped like the letter _C, the pressure on the lower edge releases the bolt carrier with a rear position, while raising his finger top allows them to be blocked at the inspection. _It also includes reciprocal release of the magazine, placed in front of the trigger guard on both sides of themagazine slot.






Czech chief of staff of the armed forces during the familiarization with the new version of the rifle Brennan / Photo: ACR

The armed forces of the Czech Republic, which next year are going to buy the next batch of military weapons from Ceska Zbrojovka, probably decide to purchase a new variety CZ 806. Just Czech defense minister and the generals are perfectly aware that the early adoption of weapons to arm increases its export opportunities.

However, if such a decision will be made, it will mean that by the time a major overhaul, the Czech soldiers will be well until three versions rifles Brennan: CZ 805 Bren one of the chambers drain to the Czech magazines, CZ 805 Bren 1 of chambers trigger for magazines of M16 and modified CZ 806 Bren 2, in many ways different from the original model. That may create in the future a number of logistical problems associated even with the supply of spare parts. In practice, during renovations a few years, the older models will probably adapted to the latest standard.

For me, the second model Bren is an expected development. The Bren 805 rifle was originally designed for a polymer upper receiver, something that shows in its contours, which appear more well-suited to injection molding than milling. At some point in development, the material was changed to aluminum, but the receiver’s dimensions were not, resulting in an expensive and heavy assembly. The new rifle has an upper receiver apparently designed for aluminum from the start, which certainly brings the weight down, and mostly likely also greatly reduces cost. Indeed, the new rifle appears to address all of my major complaints about the 805, with the exception of the bolt removal procedure being armorer-level; no word yet on whether that has been changed. [EDIT: overlander in the comments points out that the pin holding the bolt group together is readily driven out. CZ reps had told Tim and myself that bolt removal procedure was armorer-level, and the pin has a divoted end that I had assumed was a rivet/staking. Mea culpa on that one]

Phil Note: The translation done by Google doesn’t always do the best job. Excuse the somewhat confusing language at times.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...cz-806-bren-2-improved-modular-assault-rifle/

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## Zahoor Raja-Jani

Zarvan said:


> @Zahoor Raja-Jani Sir please reply here. Are those Guns which you are saying are shortlisted FN SCAR and CZ-806 BREN A2 ?
> @balixd
> 
> *CZ Announces CZ 806 Bren 2 Improved Modular Assault Rifle*
> Posted October 12, 2015 in Guns & Gear, News, Other Gear & Gadgets, Rifles by Nathaniel F with 48 Comments
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Czech small arms manufacturer Česká zbrojovka has introduced an improved, lighter variant of its 805 Bren rifle, called the 806 Bren 2. Altair.com reports:
> 
> ADVERTISEMENT
> 
> (How much is the CZ 805 BREN?, 2014-08-16), a very large mass, poor ergonomics, as well as the bad balance of the gun during firing. CZ 805 first series production also had a very long, steady flask with uncomfortable cheek pad. Soldiers also drew attention to the negative shaped handle and tensioning levers switch. Worse yet, in contrast to almost all modern construction, the cocking lever would not stop in a rear position after using all of the cartridges in the magazine. User can also easily distribute gas system for cleaning weapons.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The new Bren 2 significantly improved ergonomics and functionality structure.Manipulators are operated intuitively and tensioning handle itself remains stationary while firing. Added a much better position flask with adjustable feet finished prominent damper / Photo: CZ
> 
> In the course of production changed, among others, flask, introduced enlarged wings switch the type of fire. In the second production batch it was decided to replace the drain chamber. Hence, the first 7737 Brenów supplied with transparent plastic magazinesconstruction CZ (can be used interchangeably with the Germanmagazine H & K G36), wypinanych lever similar to the AK. Other 9700 rifles CZ 805 (200 first series and all the other) are served with typical cartridge magazinesof M16 (Soon contract for weapons forACR, 2013-12-07). The release levers are located on both sides of the chamber drain.
> 
> The refinement of weapons involved was Colonel Josef Kopecký, the Czech commander of the 7th Mechanized Brigade, which is why he and his soldiers were the first to get acquainted with a new, refined variant of Ceska Zbrojovka carbine. October 6 at the shooting range in Bzenec presented rifles CZ 806 Bren 2 A1 and subkarabinki CZ 806 Bren 2 A2 as chief of the General Staff of ACR gen. Josef Becvarovi.
> 
> Bren 2 rifles family were announced at the DSEI arms fair in London (DSEI 2015: CZ Bren announced carbine 2, 2015-09-18). This structure formed on the basis of export varieties of CZ 807, which competed in the Indian weapon trials, canceled the program MCAR. Weapon referred to as the CZ 806 is adapted for ammunition 5.56 mm x 7.62 mm and 45 x 39, while maintaining the same drain chamber. The exchange will only be subject barrel, the castle and themagazine. In a variation of 5.56 mm would be a standard magazine M16, when the gun is supplied with the cartridge Russian model will be used for identical dimensions of the upper part of the hull.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Photo showing introduced to the CZ 806 changes. The most important include the drainage chamber and the flask, but also mentioned the gas system in the band barrels / Photo: CZ
> 
> The CZ 806 Bren 2 introduced a number of amendments requested by the soldiers using weapons. First of all _slimmed down_carbine, mainly by removing excess material with aluminum castle chambers, reducing its mass by 0.5 kg. For comparison, the mass of subkarabinka CZ 805 Bren 1 A2 280 mm barrel is 3.39 / 4.10 kg (without iron sights andmagazine / with a full magazine and sling), while his counterpart CZ 806 Bren 2 A2 of the same length barrel – only 2.76 / 2.99 kilograms.
> 
> Also redesigned from the cocking lever moving during the shot. The CZ 806 when voltage is disconnected from the breech and remains stationary in the conduct of fire. It also includes new mechanism of gas which decomposes to clean in a much simpler manner than in the model CZ 805 has also changed its setting number of two to three. CZ 806 has a new, folding on the right side of the flask with a plastic adjustable foot position. The latter ends with a prominent, removable from the shock.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CZ 806 Bren 2 has been significantly slimmed down compared to the first variant.The weapon is lighter by about 0.5 kg / Photo: CZ
> 
> The main difference between the first and the second version is changed Brena drain chamber. It is no longer a separate module shared with the magazine slot, the CZ 806 is it with him one. Pistol grip can be equipped with one of two straps, matching it better to hand the shooter size M and L. Bren 2 has a new, improved trigger. The designers of the CZ abandoned the option series 2-blasting. In the model CZ 806 switch the type of fire has only three settings: protected, fire a single and continuous fire.
> 
> The rifle changed the position of the manipulators by introducing two release levers mobile assembly from the rear position in which it remains after the last shot. The first is almost identical to the known M16, located on the left side, conveniently manipulated with the thumb of a hand putting slot magazine. The second is hidden on the front wall of the interior of the trigger guard. It is shaped like the letter _C, the pressure on the lower edge releases the bolt carrier with a rear position, while raising his finger top allows them to be blocked at the inspection. _It also includes reciprocal release of the magazine, placed in front of the trigger guard on both sides of themagazine slot.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Czech chief of staff of the armed forces during the familiarization with the new version of the rifle Brennan / Photo: ACR
> 
> The armed forces of the Czech Republic, which next year are going to buy the next batch of military weapons from Ceska Zbrojovka, probably decide to purchase a new variety CZ 806. Just Czech defense minister and the generals are perfectly aware that the early adoption of weapons to arm increases its export opportunities.
> 
> However, if such a decision will be made, it will mean that by the time a major overhaul, the Czech soldiers will be well until three versions rifles Brennan: CZ 805 Bren one of the chambers drain to the Czech magazines, CZ 805 Bren 1 of chambers trigger for magazines of M16 and modified CZ 806 Bren 2, in many ways different from the original model. That may create in the future a number of logistical problems associated even with the supply of spare parts. In practice, during renovations a few years, the older models will probably adapted to the latest standard.
> 
> For me, the second model Bren is an expected development. The Bren 805 rifle was originally designed for a polymer upper receiver, something that shows in its contours, which appear more well-suited to injection molding than milling. At some point in development, the material was changed to aluminum, but the receiver’s dimensions were not, resulting in an expensive and heavy assembly. The new rifle has an upper receiver apparently designed for aluminum from the start, which certainly brings the weight down, and mostly likely also greatly reduces cost. Indeed, the new rifle appears to address all of my major complaints about the 805, with the exception of the bolt removal procedure being armorer-level; no word yet on whether that has been changed. [EDIT: overlander in the comments points out that the pin holding the bolt group together is readily driven out. CZ reps had told Tim and myself that bolt removal procedure was armorer-level, and the pin has a divoted end that I had assumed was a rivet/staking. Mea culpa on that one]
> 
> Phil Note: The translation done by Google doesn’t always do the best job. Excuse the somewhat confusing language at times.
> http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...cz-806-bren-2-improved-modular-assault-rifle/


Yes i am sure for Scar but as per recent reports main issue is cost and for short period Army is considering AK 101 for operations againt terrorists. May be we purchase few thousand SCARS for special forces or for those units who directly involved in operations.

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## Zarvan



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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> After FN SCAR I support this Gun. *Well we don't have money otherwise *FN SCAR could replace G3 and also giving real 7.62 X 51 Power to Special Forces and Infantry and this Gun can replace Type 56. I wish we had at least 50 Billion dollars as our budget
> 
> @balixd


What now?
we are not getting the FN SCAR anymore? 
I thought your sources had CONFIRMED the procurement.


----------



## ali_raza

i hope it doesn't end up like tank trials


----------



## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> What now?
> we are not getting the FN SCAR anymore?
> I thought your sources had CONFIRMED the procurement.


No I still support FN SCAR and that is my most favourite and 2nd favourite is this Gun. I hope we get FN SCAR. No what I know is FN SCAR is leading in trials but that doesn't mean it's confirmed



ali_raza said:


> i hope it doesn't end up like tank trials


INSHALLAH it won't. Gun will be selected soon

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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> No I still support FN SCAR and that is my most favourite and 2nd favourite is this Gun. I hope we get FN SCAR. No what I know is FN SCAR is leading in trials but that doesn't mean it's confirmed
> 
> 
> INSHALLAH it won't. Gun will be selected soon


The feeling was, or the feeling that was being tried to be created was that FN SCAR was final. There were talk of "leading the trails" and there were claims of "whole army going to get the new gun" the reason being " when we asked them for trails we know the money involved and asking them here mean that have been addressed". One thing leads to another and the whole story sounded like "FN leading the trails, money OBVIOUSLY not an issue so ...... you know what"

@Zarvan i have nothing against you dear, we have both been here on this forum for years now, its more like a family but i always request everyone that we should avoid creating sensation and hype out of nothing. We see Indians doing so (sorry to drag you in here) and see what we make of it. I hope you do not take all this as offensive and will consider my request like a friend/brother. 

I also hope we do get the best system out there to arm our men with that. 

Thanks

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## Talwar e Pakistan

The FN Scar looks too big and bulky; it should only be inducted for our Special Forces - it's design makes it seem as if it would do poor in urban environment.


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## Arsalan

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> The FN Scar looks too big and bulky; it should only be inducted for our Special Forces - it's design makes it seem as if it would do poor in urban environment.


You are contradicting you point here sir,
if it is not suitable for urban warfare why would we arm our SF with these? 

Plus it dont look that bulk either.




Which rifle are you comparing this with?

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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> You are contradicting you point here sir,
> if it is not suitable for urban warfare why would we arm our SF with these?
> 
> Plus it dont look that bulk either.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Which rifle are you comparing this with?


It's the best Gun for urban warfare. Most special forces are adopting this Gun. Even Police SWAT units around the world are adopting FN SCAR

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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> The feeling was, or the feeling that was being tried to be created was that FN SCAR was final. There were talk of "leading the trails" and there were claims of "whole army going to get the new gun" the reason being " when we asked them for trails we know the money involved and asking them here mean that have been addressed". One thing leads to another and the whole story sounded like "FN leading the trails, money OBVIOUSLY not an issue so ...... you know what"
> 
> @Zarvan i have nothing against you dear, we have both been here on this forum for years now, its more like a family but i always request everyone that we should avoid creating sensation and hype out of nothing. We see Indians doing so (sorry to drag you in here) and see what we make of it. I hope you do not take all this as offensive and will consider my request like a friend/brother.
> 
> I also hope we do get the best system out there to arm our men with that.
> 
> Thanks


Which ever Gun will be selected will be selected for entire Army and FN SCAR is leading in the trials but until a deal is signed with company no one can be fully sure. In fact new Rifle will also go to Air Force and Navy and Para Military


----------



## ali_raza

any news guys


----------



## Zarvan

ali_raza said:


> any news guys


No news yet but I am hoping to hear some good news in a month or two.

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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> Which ever Gun will be selected will be selected for entire Army and FN SCAR is leading in the trials but until a deal is signed with company no one can be fully sure. In fact new Rifle will also go to Air Force and Navy and Para Military



Again??
Dont make it sound like it is FINAL just to back off at some late stage.

Or change to this;


Zarvan said:


> After FN SCAR I support this Gun. *Well we don't have money *otherwise FN SCAR could replace G3 and also giving real 7.62 X 51 Power to Special Forces and Infantry and this Gun can replace Type 56. I wish we had at least 50 Billion dollars as our budget
> 
> @balixd




from this;



Zarvan said:


> Well member balixd is the source
> 
> 
> 
> *We would have never tested FN SCAR if we had money issue.* The moment we chose FN SCAR we knew what we are going for.



Allah ka baad app he ka asra ha bahi @balixd ,, will YOU try to convenice please!!

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## ali_raza

still I would very much like scar to win as do zarvan.but personal favorite is ak103


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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> Again??
> Dont make it sound like it is FINAL just to back off at some late stage.
> 
> Or change to this;
> 
> 
> 
> from this;
> 
> 
> 
> Allah ka baad app he ka asra ha bahi @balixd ,, will YOU try to convenice please!!


It's Army who has and will decide not me. I am just sharing the info which I have that is FN SCAR is leading trials now what happens in the end nobody can be sure until Army announces it


----------



## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> It's Army who has and will decide not me. I am just sharing the info which I have that is FN SCAR is leading trials *now what happens in the end nobody can be sure until Army announces it*


Exactly!


----------



## Amaa'n

Arsalan said:


> Again??
> Dont make it sound like it is FINAL just to back off at some late stage.
> 
> Or change to this;
> 
> 
> 
> from this;
> 
> 
> 
> Allah ka baad app he ka asra ha bahi @balixd ,, will YOU try to convenice please!!


i visit this thread just to humor myself from some of these posts --- and then i close the browser window at a positive end ---- i cannot convince our fellow @Zarvan here, his fanboyism is out of this world ------ let the summer end and we should hear something by August about the Summer trails ----- Committee will hand over the results to the concerned Lt.Gen - for weapons evaluation and ultimately COAS will decide ------

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## Zarvan

balixd said:


> i visit this thread just to humor myself from some of these posts --- and then i close the browser window at a positive end ---- i cannot convince our fellow @Zarvan here, his fanboyism is out of this world ------ let the summer end and we should hear something by August about the Summer trails ----- Committee will hand over the results to the concerned Lt.Gen - for weapons evaluation and ultimately COAS will decide ------


I think 2016 heat is enough to test the Gun. By the what happened to 6th Gun ?


----------



## Path-Finder

Beretta ARX 200 quick overview 

Zarvan please dont bring SCAR into it. Thank you.


----------



## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Beretta ARX 200 quick overview
> 
> Zarvan please dont bring SCAR into it. Thank you.


I have serious questions on accuracy of ARX. @Sulman Badshah Please share your thoughts on this. 
@Tipu7


----------



## Arsalan

balixd said:


> i visit this thread just to humor myself from some of these posts --- and then i close the browser window at a positive end ---- i cannot convince our fellow @Zarvan here, his fanboyism is out of this world ------ let the summer end and we should hear something by August about the Summer trails ----- Committee will hand over the results to the concerned Lt.Gen - for weapons evaluation and ultimately COAS will decide ------


I will take a leaf out of your book here then. 

Lets see what happens in next few months.

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## Sparkle229

Every one knew from the start that the best out of all the rifles is SCAR so there wasn't any competition but Pakistan army will choose the rifle which will come in their budget
I hope that it would be SCAR

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## Zarvan

Sparkle229 said:


> Every one knew from the start that the best out of all the rifles is SCAR so there wasn't any competition but Pakistan army will choose the rifle which will come in their budget
> I hope that it would be SCAR


SCAR without doubt is the best but hope Army soon announces the results and production set is made at POF. Pakistan Army should also launch it for Public that would gain them revenue lot of it.

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## Sparkle229

Zarvan said:


> SCAR without doubt is the best but hope Army soon announces the results and production set is made at POF. Pakistan Army should also launch it for Public that would gain them revenue lot of it.


I hope they do launch it for the public but what do you think would be the price of that rifle


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## Zarvan

Sparkle229 said:


> I hope they do launch it for the public but what do you think would be the price of that rifle


At least 300000 Pakistani Rupees if launched for civilian market


----------



## Sparkle229

Zarvan said:


> At least 300000 Pakistani Rupees if launched for civilian market


It is a small amount for this beauty



Zarvan said:


> At least 300000 Pakistani Rupees if launched for civilian market


How many years would it take for it to be implemented in the army,will it be only used by special forces?


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## Zarvan

Sparkle229 said:


> It is a small amount for this beauty
> 
> 
> How many years would it take for it to be implemented in the army,will it be only used by special forces?


No it would go to all Armed Forces even Navy and Air Force and Para Military and it would take a decade to provide them to all Armed Forces.


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## Sparkle229

Zarvan said:


> No it would go to all Armed Forces even Navy and Air Force and Para Military and it would take a decade to provide them to all Armed Forces.


Than my new goal is to join the army and use this beauty if it is selected

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## Zarvan




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## Bratva



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## Skaði

Bratva said:


>



Screw SCAR, pick EBR!!!

No, I'm being serious. The M14 in the photo is beautiful and its modern versions are a beast that the US military has been using in Afghanistan as their 5.56 rifles lack power and range in the Afghan theater.
















It's also got a marksman variant, the M39





The problem with the EBR is that it's as heavy as the SCAR Mod 20






...

As far as the actual competition to replace the G3 goes, I'm pulling for none of the weapons. I feel there's better choices out there.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Skaði said:


> Screw SCAR, pick EBR!!!
> 
> No, I'm being serious. The M14 in the photo is beautiful and its modern versions are a beast that the US military has been using in Afghanistan as their 5.56 rifles lack power and range in the Afghan theater.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's also got a marksman variant, the M39
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The problem with the EBR is that it's as heavy as the SCAR Mod 20
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> As far as the actual competition to replace the G3 goes, I'm pulling for none of the weapons. I feel there's better choices out there.


None of the rifles being tested are 5.56.. All of em are 7.62.. not sure which better options you have in mind..

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## Zarvan



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## Mr.Realpolitik

would we be purchasing the FN-SCAR manufacturing rights from Belgium or USA?


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## Zarvan

Mr.Realpolitik said:


> would we be purchasing the FN-SCAR manufacturing rights from Belgium or USA?


It would be Belgium.


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## mingle

Zarvan said:


> It would be Belgium.


If we Buying Helis from Italy then my two cents it would be Italian Rifle expect a big deal here with italy .

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## Bratva

Skaði said:


> Screw SCAR, pick EBR!!!
> 
> No, I'm being serious. The M14 in the photo is beautiful and its modern versions are a beast that the US military has been using in Afghanistan as their 5.56 rifles lack power and range in the Afghan theater.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's also got a marksman variant, the M39
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The problem with the EBR is that it's as heavy as the SCAR Mod 20
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> As far as the actual competition to replace the G3 goes, I'm pulling for none of the weapons. I feel there's better choices out there.




Does this gun works in all weathers ? From plain hot desert areas to High altitude extremely low temperatures ? Like One ring to rule all

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## Skaði

Bratva said:


> Does this gun works in all weathers?



Most modern ones do, or can be acclimatized like the HK416N:






But yes, the M14 EBR has seen action in a wide variety of climates and was used by US forces in both Iraq and Afghanistan:

Including by the 10th Mountain Division, who's responsibility is, as their name suggests, mountain warfare.





















It works where ever the US military needs it to.

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## C130

MPT-76


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## Zarvan

mingle said:


> If we Buying Helis from Italy then my two cents it would be Italian Rifle expect a big deal here with italy .


No helicopters deal is not connected with Gun. We would select the Gun which passes our tests. But I can see Frigates and Air Defence systems coming from Italy.

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## Zarvan

CZ 805 Bren A1

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## Max Pain

Zarvan said:


> View attachment 306961
> 
> CZ 805 Bren A1


I found this one to be the most suitable, modular, cheaper, less recoil and lighter


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## Zarvan

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1098146160242549


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## Zarvan




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## Wolfhound

Zarvan said:


> Well if SCAR is selected and if we produce both SCAR 16 and SCAR 17 than it would definitely replace all old Guns. As for submachine Gun man money is issue otherwise Kriss Vector is worth a look.


We have a number of options for the replacement of the MP-5, as we know that the military was replacing it with the Type-56 because they wanted a heavier hitting weapon. If we get the FN Scar it is quite possible because of its cost effectiveness that may buy its PDW as well, which is a 5.56mm and fits the profile perfectly but we have other options as well, we might but the CZ Scorpion Evo if we buy the Bren. Their is even a possibility that we replace the submachine caliber completely with an assault rilfe(rifles which fire only 5.56or 5.45mm rounds) like FN Scar L, Bren 805, etc.


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## Zarvan



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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> View attachment 307027


 A SCAR a day keeps the Doctor Away!

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## Zarvan

*Kenya Special Forces Operations Forces Armed with FN SCAR-H Assault Rifle*
0 Army 



Members of the Kenya Special Forces Operations Forces armed with FN SCAR-H 7.62×51mm (Special Operations Forces Combat Assault Rifle) arrived for launching a final assault on the luxury shopping mall in Nairobi to deal with the militants holding around 30 hostages.




FN SCAR is modular assault rifle developed by FN Herstal (FNH) for the United States Special Operations Command (SOCOM).





http://globalmilitaryreview.blogspot.com/2013/09/kenya-special-forces-operations-forces.html?m=0

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## django

Zarvan said:


> *Kenya Special Forces Operations Forces Armed with FN SCAR-H Assault Rifle*
> 0 Army
> 
> 
> 
> Members of the Kenya Special Forces Operations Forces armed with FN SCAR-H 7.62×51mm (Special Operations Forces Combat Assault Rifle) arrived for launching a final assault on the luxury shopping mall in Nairobi to deal with the militants holding around 30 hostages.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FN SCAR is modular assault rifle developed by FN Herstal (FNH) for the United States Special Operations Command (SOCOM).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://globalmilitaryreview.blogspot.com/2013/09/kenya-special-forces-operations-forces.html?m=0


I have heard of our guys having SCAR yet I have not seen any of them holding this weapon with the single exception of those being tested on a firing range, if these rag tag kenyan forces have these weapons, we definitely should have it

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## Tipu7

@balixd 
I am receiving news which claim that
SCAR H has won the competition.
Pakistan will produce domestic version under TOT agreement.
I will share pics when available.
Can you do confirmation on your side?

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## Capt.Mir5832

Tipu7 said:


> @Bratva
> SCAR H has won the competition.
> Pakistan will produce domestic version under TOT agreement.
> I will share pics when available.
> Can you do confirmation on your side?


Will the scar l also be produced?


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## Zarvan

Tipu7 said:


> @Bratva
> SCAR H has won the competition.
> Pakistan will produce domestic version under TOT agreement.
> I will share pics when available.
> Can you do confirmation on your side?


If your source is Moid than please don't post this news until @balixd confirms it

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## RAMPAGE

Zarvan said:


> If your source is Moid than please don't post this news until @balixd confirms it


Moulana sahab, Mithai?

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## Tipu7

Zarvan said:


> If your source is Moid than please don't post this news until @balixd confirms it





RAMPAGE said:


> Moulana sahab, Mithai?


Let's wait for @balixd confirmation......

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## Zarvan

RAMPAGE said:


> Moulana sahab, Mithai?


I am waiting confirmation from solid source


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## RAMPAGE

Tipu7 said:


> Let's wait for @balixd confirmation......


Us kai baad mithai?

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## Bratva

RAMPAGE said:


> Moulana sahab, Mithai?



Bhai Jaan please, Sooji Ka Halva

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## RAMPAGE

Bratva said:


> Bhai Jaan please, Sooji Ka Halva


Wesay yaar, Halway ka naam lai kai mujhay aap nai akhrot ka halwa yaad karwa dia. Pata nahi ab Karachi sai kon kab aye ga. Oh, aur wo khopray wala bhi!

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## wxyz

@RAMPAGE

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## RAMPAGE

wxyz said:


> @RAMPAGE

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## wxyz

RAMPAGE said:


>


it's a hot day today, I basically slept all day

how are you? what are you up to?


----------



## ali_raza

lets confirm plz guys...


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## Zarvan

ali_raza said:


> lets confirm plz guys...


We are waiting for the news to be confirmed. 
@Zahoor Raja-Jani @kaonalpha @DESERT FIGHTER @Icarus @F.O.X

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## Zarvan

@balixd Can you confirm the @Tipu7 claim that FN SCAR has been selected. 
@kaonalpha @Icarus @Horus @F.O.X 
By the way these pictures are of Kenyan Soldiers


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## Zarvan



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## PAR 5

My latest information says that PA has not yet selected any rifle. 

As a matter of fact they are gearing up for ROUND 2 in which more rifles will also be included.

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## Zarvan

PAR 5 said:


> My latest information says that PA has not yet selected any rifle.
> 
> As a matter of fact they are gearing up for ROUND 2 in which more rifles will also be included.


Well if true than it's sad news. But hope to see the results soon. I am waiting for Mr @balixd here.


----------



## Zarvan

PAR 5 said:


> My latest information says that PA has not yet selected any rifle.
> 
> As a matter of fact they are gearing up for ROUND 2 in which more rifles will also be included.


I hope if they go for round 2 than FN SCAR is also in the round II and only Gun I think can come close to FN SCAR will be HK-417. Now we have to see if they invite HK-417 or not.


----------



## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> only Gun I think can come close to FN SCAR will be HK-417


Bahi wasn't it CZ BERN 805 up until last week?

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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> Bahi wasn't it CZ BERN 805 up until last week?


If Pakistan is going for round II than most probably only FN SCAR would be in round II from the 5 Guns we tested. And if some new Guns would come to compete against FN SCAR, than in them I can only see HK-417 which may be able to give tough time to FN SCAR. Other than HK-417 I don't see any Gun which comes close to FN SCAR.


----------



## SSGcommandoPAK

Tipu7 said:


> @balixd
> I am receiving news which claim that
> SCAR H has won the competition.
> Pakistan will produce domestic version under TOT agreement.
> I will share pics when available.
> Can you do confirmation on your side?




yae khushi kae ansoon hain

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## Zarvan

YousufSSG said:


> yae khushi kae ansoon hain


Don't cry first try to get this news confirmed. Until news is confirmed by Army we can't be sure. Still I am hoping news is correct

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## SSGcommandoPAK

Bratva said:


> Bhai Jaan please, Sooji Ka Halva


aur indians kae liae burnol



Zarvan said:


> Don't cry first try to get this news confirmed. Until news is confirmed by Army we can't be sure. Still I am hoping news is correct


Yes sir 



YousufSSG said:


> aur indians kae liae burnol
> 
> 
> Yes sir


If we Inshallah get our hands on the Scar , our next thread should be how will India counter this high tech riffle .

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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> If Pakistan is going for round II than most probably only FN SCAR would be in round II from the 5 Guns we tested. And if some new Guns would come to compete against FN SCAR, than in them I can only see HK-417 which may be able to give tough time to FN SCAR. Other than HK-417 I don't see any Gun which comes close to FN SCAR.


No i was asking wasn't it the BERN that was closest to FN SCAR till last week?  What changed sir?
Also what makes you say that ONLY FN SCAR will go through to, what you call, round 2

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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> No i was asking wasn't it the BERN that was closest to FN SCAR till last week?  What changed sir?
> Also what makes you say that ONLY FN SCAR will go through to, what you call, round 2


Not close to FN SCAR but among the 5 Guns we are testing it's on 2nd Position.


----------



## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> Not close to FN SCAR but among the 5 Guns we are testing it's on 2nd Position.


and you are saying now that HK 414 is "closer" to FN SCAR then CZ BERN 805?

also;


Arsalan said:


> Also what makes you say that ONLY FN SCAR will go through to, what you call, round 2


----------



## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> and you are saying now that HK 414 is "closer" to FN SCAR then CZ BERN 805?
> 
> also;


Janab what I am saying is pretty clear. Stop confusing things. FN SCAR is great Gun and the 5 Guns which we currently are testing FN SCAR is the best. CZ-806 is good Gun but doesn't come close to FN SCAR but it's better than other 3 Guns being tested by Pakistan. Now if we are going to test 4 to 5 new Guns in round II along with FN SCAR than in entire world I can only see HK-417 which may come close to FN SCAR in performance in all aspects.


----------



## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> Janab what I am saying is pretty clear. Stop confusing things. FN SCAR is great Gun and the 5 Guns which we currently are testing FN SCAR is the best. CZ-806 is good Gun but doesn't come close to FN SCAR but it's better than other 3 Guns being tested by Pakistan. Now if we are going to test 4 to 5 new Guns in round II along with FN SCAR than in entire world I can only see HK-417 which may come close to FN SCAR in performance in all aspects.



Oh bahi I am sorry. As I have mentioned time and time again, I have NOTHING against you, nothing personal. You have been here for around 5 years now, I am aware of your contributions here. So I am sorry, AGAIN, if you feel I am getting to you.

My only disagreement with you here on this topic and may be some other topics like this is about exaggeration. There are a few things, especially when it comes to our military that can be confirmed only with time. Making things SOUND like otherwise is something that miss lead people. You are know that we, the members are not paid to come here right? The only reason for all of us being here is because we want to learn about things. That is the reason I am always careful while claiming things. I do not want to mislead people and what I know about you, you won’t either want to do any such thing. For this, I just request that we do not announce things so that they SOUND as facts while they are just our own feelings or analysis.

As for the last post, I was curious what makes you think that ONLY FN SCAR will go through to what you call round 2? I mean, why isn’t it possible that two or even three guns are tested again along with two or three new ones? There is apparently no reason for that to happen so I won’t say that with any surety.

I hope you understand what I am trying to say

Have a good day!


----------



## F.O.X

Nothing is confirmed yet.

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## ali_raza

F.O.X said:


> Nothing is confirmed yet.


plz confirm it then sir


----------



## F.O.X

ali_raza said:


> plz confirm it then sir


not that simple

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## Zarvan

F.O.X said:


> not that simple





F.O.X said:


> not that simple


Well can you at least tell that Gun from these 5 Guns being tested will be selected or we may bring more Guns for testing


----------



## Skaði

Zarvan said:


> . Now if we are going to test 4 to 5 new Guns in round II along with FN SCAR than in entire world* I can only see HK-417 which may come close to FN SCAR in performance in all aspects*.



No, you're comparing dissimilar guns. *FN-SCAR is an assault rif*l*e *and behaves like one. It has semi and full-auto and controllable recoil. It's light, compact and easy to maneuver in tight spaces.

The HK-417, which I had the pleasure of using during my time in the RNoAF during aerial shoots, is *a battle rifle* and is typically used as a designated marksman rifle:







While both have longer or shorter barrels depending on the requirements on the individual military's, the HK-417 is less suited to assault duties due to a heavier recoil and a higher weight, which drags on a soldier.






The HK-417 is used as a long-range precision weapon, as fits its traits:











Even when using a smaller barrel, it's still better for DMR duties, as opposed to SCAR which is best as an assault rifle and has a secondary DMR capability with the Mod 20 configuration:











The two guns share the same round, but one is better for assault duties and is an assault rifle. The other is best as a DMR and is a battle rifle.

They aren't really comparable. HK-417 is a straight improvement over the G3 (AG3 here), as the G3 was also a battle rifle:






But SCAR would be a shift away from the battle rifle type in Pakistani service and a move towards a more conventional setup for infantry units, as it's an assault rifle.

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## Bratva

RAMPAGE said:


> Wesay yaar, Halway ka naam lai kai mujhay aap nai akhrot ka halwa yaad karwa dia. Pata nahi ab Karachi sai kon kab aye ga. Oh, aur wo khopray wala bhi!



Humara phada ho jaye gaaa... Sohn Halvaaa >>>>>>> Khopray Shopray

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## ali_raza

Bratva said:


> Humara phada ho jaye gaaa... Sohn Halvaaa >>>>>>> Khopray Shopray


me khila du ga sir apko multan ka special hafiz ka sohn halwa.ap bas news nikalo


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## Amaa'n

am i too late to join the party????

Weapons are out of PoF again --- and send back for second round to Kharian---- now what is in the round 2 is very unclear ----
but that is what has been said on chats --- you guys ask me questions at the wrong time

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## Zarvan

balixd said:


> am i too late to join the party????
> 
> Weapons are out of PoF again --- and send back for second round to Kharian---- now what is in the round 2 is very unclear ----
> but that is what has been said on chats --- you guys ask me questions at the wrong time


Our friend claimed that FN SCAR H has won the trials. He has made some funny claims before ,although I wanted him to be right this time. But still we wanted to get it confirmed or denied by you so thanks for the answer. @Tipu7 @Sulman Badshah



Bratva said:


> Humara phada ho jaye gaaa... Sohn Halvaaa >>>>>>> Khopray Shopray


I prefer Sohan Halwa and than Gajar ka Halwa but unfortunately we would have to wait for that because trials are still going on.

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## ali_raza

hi


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## ali_raza

no one can post something new


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## Sulman Badshah

New G-3 with transparent Mag and new stock 

One is Maldives delegation and other is from Egyptian delegation


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## Zarvan

Sulman Badshah said:


> New G-3 with transparent Mag and new stock
> 
> One is Maldives delegation and other is from Egyptian delegation
> View attachment 308366
> View attachment 308367


Why are they wasting time on G3 ? Or are they planning to export G3 to African and other countries with less budget

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## Zarvan

@balixd A Friend claims that Pakistan is buying latest machinery from Turkey for POF to produce Pakistan's new Assault Rifle. Do you have any news about it ?


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## S.U.R.B.

The concept of an Intelligent rail introduced by Beretta is really sweet.
It's a step from a normal assault weapon towards a modern smart Assault weapon.






Link: http://www.berettadefensetechnologies.com/arx-intelligent-rail

Whether they can sell this to the PA or not,but this thing opens up a whole new world of options and comforts for it's operator which like other factors can not be ignored.More than that beyond the ARX-200 they are going to develop another marksman rifle (DMR), which seems promising.

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## PAR 5

Zarvan said:


> @balixd A Friend claims that Pakistan is buying latest machinery from Turkey for POF to produce Pakistan's new Assault Rifle. Do you have any news about it ?



POF just signed an MoU with an Italian company called MECHANICA for the upgradtion of its manufacturing facilities. This also given credibility to the fact I mentioned earlier that POF is trying to develop an Assault Rifle itself as well. 

And why sell a defunct G3 to the Maldives when our own Army is trying to get rid of it?

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## Zarvan



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## ali_raza

Zarvan said:


> View attachment 309303


damn good yaar


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## Zarvan



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## Zarvan

@balixd Sir any updates ???? @kaonalpha @Icarus @F.O.X

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## Wolfhound

Zarvan said:


> View attachment 310178
> 
> @balixd Sir any updates ???? @kaonalpha @Icarus @F.O.X


Sir they're gearing up for round 2, nothing is decided yet but the good news is that the FN Scar is on top and has had the best performance with lowest amount of stoppages in the first round.

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## Zarvan

Wolfhound said:


> Sir they're gearing up for round 2, nothing is decided yet but the good news is that the FN Scar is on top and has had the best performance with lowest amount of stoppages in the first round.


Thanks for the news and I am seriously praying for FN SCAR

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## Zarvan




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## Thorough Pro

If the customer starts to disclose the comparative performance of competing platforms, he is basically shooting himself in the leg by strengthening the stance of the possible winner when time comes to negotiate the price and terms. Your supplier must never know how far ahead or back it is with reference to other competitors to remain competitive in price negotiations. If you tell them beforehand that all others failed to meet the requirement, what do you expect in pricing?

A smart customer would say (at least in public) that the competition is very close with very minor differences in performance and we can choose anyone of the top three or four contenders.......so when there is no difference in performance the only thing that tilts the balance in a contender's favour is the pricing, terms etc.

but that is for smart customers and Pakistanis have always been stupid braggers....... 



Wolfhound said:


> Sir they're gearing up for round 2, nothing is decided yet but the good news is that the FN Scar is on top and has had the best performance with lowest amount of stoppages in the first round.

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## Arsalan

balixd said:


> am i too late to join the party????
> 
> Weapons are out of PoF again --- and send back for second round to Kharian---- now what is in the round 2 is very unclear ----
> but that is what has been said on chats --- you guys ask me questions at the wrong time


It is the same dear, the guns were brought back for some analysis and a few new options have joined now so these have been sent back for testing. The initial claims that these are being tested in battlefield were never true @Zarvan , I confirmed you at that time as well. These always were in too limited numbers to make it to operations and were always being evaluated at ranges. That is what will continue for now. FN SCAR performance is surely best but there are other guns in close competition and there will be factors other then these tests as well when making the final decision. 
Had a detailed discussion just yesterday and you people need to sit tight for a few more weeks. 
Also the plan is not to directly go for replacement of the whole army as i mentioned and now have been confirmed. The news that confused almost everyone was that that idea of this new guns is that it can replace the guns of whole army, AT SOME POINT in time! If that was not the case we would have just bought a few thousand guns directly however all this effort being put is is because the authorities want to select a gun that MAY be able to replace the guns in whole of army at some time, that will take years, years as in decades!! 
For now the procurement will be for some selected units and then a decision will be made only afterwards, no matter how news channels chose to twist the words to say otherwise. Numbers we will be looking at are 10000 to 12000. It is likely that since the gun will be selected only once it is deemed suitable to be used with whole army one day and because G3 are getting old and need to be replaced this new guns do gets inducted with whole army in some years. However there still are some people in key positions that are in strong support of a locally made gun. We may see a product resulting from experiences of G3 and the new selected gun and this current trails only select gun that remain with some special units. However, this is far too early to pass on any judgements on that issue.

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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> It is the same dear, the guns were brought back for some analysis and a few new options have joined now so these have been sent back for testing. The initial claims that these are being tested in battlefield were never true @Zarvan , I confirmed you at that time as well. These always were in too limited numbers to make it to operations and were always being evaluated at ranges. That is what will continue for now. FN SCAR performance is surely best but there are other guns in close competition and there will be factors other then these tests as well when making the final decision.
> Had a detailed discussion just yesterday and you people need to sit tight for a few more weeks.
> Also the plan is not to directly go for replacement of the whole army as i mentioned and now have been confirmed. The news that confused almost everyone was that that idea of this new guns is that it can replace the guns of whole army, AT SOME POINT in time! If that was not the case we would have just bought a few thousand guns directly however all this effort being put is is because the authorities want to select a gun that MAY be able to replace the guns in whole of army at some time, that will take years, years as in decades!!
> For now the procurement will be for some selected units and then a decision will be made only afterwards, no matter how news channels chose to twist the words to say otherwise. Numbers we will be looking at are 10000 to 12000. It is likely that since the gun will be selected only once it is deemed suitable to be used with whole army one day and because G3 are getting old and need to be replaced this new guns do gets inducted with whole army in some years. However there still are some people in key positions that are in strong support of a locally made gun. We may see a product resulting from experiences of G3 and the new selected gun and this current trails only select gun that remain with some special units. However, this is far too early to pass on any judgements on that issue.


What new options have arrived ? Although they would fail to beat FN SCAR. New Gun by POF is not a good idea



Arsalan said:


> It is the same dear, the guns were brought back for some analysis and a few new options have joined now so these have been sent back for testing. The initial claims that these are being tested in battlefield were never true @Zarvan , I confirmed you at that time as well. These always were in too limited numbers to make it to operations and were always being evaluated at ranges. That is what will continue for now. FN SCAR performance is surely best but there are other guns in close competition and there will be factors other then these tests as well when making the final decision.
> Had a detailed discussion just yesterday and you people need to sit tight for a few more weeks.
> Also the plan is not to directly go for replacement of the whole army as i mentioned and now have been confirmed. The news that confused almost everyone was that that idea of this new guns is that it can replace the guns of whole army, AT SOME POINT in time! If that was not the case we would have just bought a few thousand guns directly however all this effort being put is is because the authorities want to select a gun that MAY be able to replace the guns in whole of army at some time, that will take years, years as in decades!!
> For now the procurement will be for some selected units and then a decision will be made only afterwards, no matter how news channels chose to twist the words to say otherwise. Numbers we will be looking at are 10000 to 12000. It is likely that since the gun will be selected only once it is deemed suitable to be used with whole army one day and because G3 are getting old and need to be replaced this new guns do gets inducted with whole army in some years. However there still are some people in key positions that are in strong support of a locally made gun. We may see a product resulting from experiences of G3 and the new selected gun and this current trails only select gun that remain with some special units. However, this is far too early to pass on any judgements on that issue.


What new options have arrived ? Although they would fail to beat FN SCAR. New Gun by POF is not a good idea


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## RAMPAGE

Arsalan said:


> It is the same dear, the guns were brought back for some analysis and a few new options have joined now so these have been sent back for testing. The initial claims that these are being tested in battlefield were never true @Zarvan , I confirmed you at that time as well. These always were in too limited numbers to make it to operations and were always being evaluated at ranges. That is what will continue for now. FN SCAR performance is surely best but there are other guns in close competition and there will be factors other then these tests as well when making the final decision.
> Had a detailed discussion just yesterday and you people need to sit tight for a few more weeks.
> Also the plan is not to directly go for replacement of the whole army as i mentioned and now have been confirmed. The news that confused almost everyone was that that idea of this new guns is that it can replace the guns of whole army, AT SOME POINT in time! If that was not the case we would have just bought a few thousand guns directly however all this effort being put is is because the authorities want to select a gun that MAY be able to replace the guns in whole of army at some time, that will take years, years as in decades!!
> For now the procurement will be for some selected units and then a decision will be made only afterwards, no matter how news channels chose to twist the words to say otherwise. Numbers we will be looking at are 10000 to 12000. It is likely that since the gun will be selected only once it is deemed suitable to be used with whole army one day and because G3 are getting old and need to be replaced this new guns do gets inducted with whole army in some years. However there still are some people in key positions that are in strong support of a locally made gun. We may see a product resulting from experiences of G3 and the new selected gun and this current trails only select gun that remain with some special units. However, this is far too early to pass on any judgements on that issue.


I, for one, support a made in Pakistan rifle. Doesn't matter that much if the replacement gets delayed by a few years. A nice low-cost local rifle, Standardized with quality optics is what i'll vote for. By the way, Do tell us more about those optics. 

However, I think that Pakistan Army should ask the local gunsmiths, Daudsons and the like, To come up with their own designs. I'm sure they'll jump at the opportunity.

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## Wolfhound

Thorough Pro said:


> If the customer starts to disclose the comparative performance of competing platforms, he is basically shooting himself in the leg by strengthening the stance of the possible winner when time comes to negotiate the price and terms. Your supplier must never know how far ahead or back it is with reference to other competitors to remain competitive in price negotiations. If you tell them beforehand that all others failed to meet the requirement, what do you expect in pricing?
> 
> A smart customer would say (at least in public) that the competition is very close with very minor differences in performance and we can choose anyone of the top three or four contenders.......so when there is no difference in performance the only thing that tilts the balance in a contender's favour is the pricing, terms etc.
> 
> but that is for smart customers and Pakistanis have always been stupid braggers.......


Firstly, I don't think that the Belgian officials are stupid enough to check public forums for information on their products performance. Secondly, they don't need to go out looking for information on the internet as they have sent a team here specifically for the trials through which they get all the information they would ever need. So please don't try to be smart when your not and try to jump to conclusions.

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## Quwa

Arsalan said:


> It is the same dear, the guns were brought back for some analysis and a few new options have joined now so these have been sent back for testing. The initial claims that these are being tested in battlefield were never true @Zarvan , I confirmed you at that time as well. These always were in too limited numbers to make it to operations and were always being evaluated at ranges. That is what will continue for now. FN SCAR performance is surely best but there are other guns in close competition and there will be factors other then these tests as well when making the final decision.
> Had a detailed discussion just yesterday and you people need to sit tight for a few more weeks.
> Also the plan is not to directly go for replacement of the whole army as i mentioned and now have been confirmed. The news that confused almost everyone was that that idea of this new guns is that it can replace the guns of whole army, AT SOME POINT in time! If that was not the case we would have just bought a few thousand guns directly however all this effort being put is is because the authorities want to select a gun that MAY be able to replace the guns in whole of army at some time, that will take years, years as in decades!!
> For now the procurement will be for some selected units and then a decision will be made only afterwards, no matter how news channels chose to twist the words to say otherwise. Numbers we will be looking at are 10000 to 12000. It is likely that since the gun will be selected only once it is deemed suitable to be used with whole army one day and because G3 are getting old and need to be replaced this new guns do gets inducted with whole army in some years. However there still are some people in key positions that are in strong support of a locally made gun. We may see a product resulting from experiences of G3 and the new selected gun and this current trails only select gun that remain with some special units. However, this is far too early to pass on any judgements on that issue.


Even if the Army was intending to switch the standard issue rifle in earnest, the process would take a few decades at least. In our case, it'd likely be a process of basically issuing the rifle to new soldiers so that they grow up around it, it'd be the smoothest process, but the longest as well. Decades.


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## Zarvan

Quwa said:


> Even if the Army was intending to switch the standard issue rifle in earnest, the process would take a few decades at least. In our case, it'd likely be a process of basically issuing the rifle to new soldiers so that they grow up around it, it'd be the smoothest process, but the longest as well. Decades.


It would take a decade and Guns which are being tested FN SCAR would win and should be selected. POF is also upgrading its facility to increase rate and quality of production
@balixd @kaonalpha Any updates guys ?

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## Zarvan



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## Arsalan

RAMPAGE said:


> I, for one, support a made in Pakistan rifle. Doesn't matter that much if the replacement gets delayed by a few years. A nice low-cost local rifle, Standardized with quality optics is what i'll vote for. By the way, Do tell us more about those optics.
> 
> However, I think that Pakistan Army should ask the local gunsmiths, Daudsons and the like, To come up with their own designs. I'm sure they'll jump at the opportunity.


Well that is understandable and makes sense, that is why there is support for the idea in the military circles as well. Optics wont be a huge problem anyway once the gun is decided upon and finalized. There are so many options, getting private sector involved in that might be an option as well, anyway, there are quite a few options that can and will be looked upon.

For the private sector, they are not that mature or developed to take out such a massive project. Even POF will need to implement those up gradation plans to the fullest if the guns for whole army are to be replaced.



Zarvan said:


> What new options have arrived ? Although they would fail to beat FN SCAR. New Gun by POF is not a good idea


There were a few more CZ Bern that arrived and there were talks about some German option. I will leave the judgement of whether they will be able to beat SCAR to the experts. However would point out that at mentioned earlier, the performance will be ONE of the parameters that will decide which gun is selected. Even after that we are going for a few thousand units and a decision to continue with same gun will only be made after this first batch is operational (10k to 12K). That itself is a long enough time to work out all the other future plans and study its pros and cons.



Quwa said:


> Even if the Army was intending to switch the standard issue rifle in earnest, the process would take a few decades at least. In our case, it'd likely be a process of basically issuing the rifle to new soldiers so that they grow up around it, it'd be the smoothest process, but the longest as well. Decades.



Exactly sir, and that is enough time to decide on what future path we will take. Since the time required will be too long a lot of actual evaluation will be done during that decade or so. Anyone who was -thinking that they will see a gun selected and the army equipped with it, even is 7-8 years is mistaken. It will be a long process and frankly speaking, it is best that way!

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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> Well that is understandable and makes sense, that is why there is support for the idea in the military circles as well. Optics wont be a huge problem anyway once the gun is decided upon and finalized. There are so many options, getting private sector involved in that might be an option as well, anyway, there are quite a few options that can and will be looked upon.
> 
> For the private sector, they are not that mature or developed to take out such a massive project. Even POF will need to implement those up gradation plans to the fullest if the guns for whole army are to be replaced.
> 
> 
> There were a few more CZ Bern that arrived and there were talks about some German option. I will leave the judgement of whether they will be able to beat SCAR to the experts. However would point out that at mentioned earlier, the performance will be ONE of the parameters that will decide which gun is selected. Even after that we are going for a few thousand units and a decision to continue with same gun will only be made after this first batch is operational (10k to 12K). That itself is a long enough time to work out all the other future plans and study its pros and cons.
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly sir, and that is enough time to decide on what future path we will take. Since the time required will be too long a lot of actual evaluation will be done during that decade or so. Anyone who was -thinking that they will see a gun selected and the army equipped with it, even is 7-8 years is mistaken. It will be a long process and frankly speaking, it is best that way!


If HK 417 has arrived than things would get intersting. Other than that I hardly see any competetion

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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> If HK 417 has arrived than things would get intersting. Other than that I hardly see any competetion


Four the Fifth time in last 24 hours,  "Performance will be ONE of the parameters" that will decide what gun is selected. I don't know who to make it more easy to understand, spoon feeding cant be done all the time so you must try and understand what is being said in all those posts dear.

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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> Four the Fifth time in last 24 hours,  "Performance will be ONE of the parameters" that will decide what gun is selected. I don't know who to make it more easy to understand, spoon feeding cant be done all the time so you must try and understand what is being said in all those posts dear.


Off course. I know that's what I am saying that it's hard to beat FN SCAR when it comes to performance in any temprature and enviorment and other aspects like range and accuracy and less jamming. But HK 417 may come close if it has arrived for competeion @balixd @Sulman Badshah @Tipu7


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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> Off course. I know that's what I am saying that it's hard to beat FN SCAR when it comes to performance in any temprature and enviorment and other aspects like range and accuracy and less jamming. But HK 417 may come close if it has arrived for competeion @balixd @Sulman Badshah @Tipu7


Hmmm, well you failed to mention the "performance" part in the previous posts and it looked like you were saying as the gun confirmed to be selected. I am pointing to the fact that the performance will be only one of the parameters that will help make the selection. Thank you for clearing it now so that there wont be any confusions.


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## Kurlang

@Zarvan rest assured FN SCAR will not be selected. I know you are too passionate about it however as mentioned by @Arsalan there are many other parameters at play other than gun's performance.


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## Arsalan

Kurlang said:


> @Zarvan rest assured FN SCAR will not be selected. I know you are too passionate about it however as mentioned by @Arsalan there are many other parameters at play other than gun's performance.


No i wont say that with surety! 

What we need to understand that the trails and evaluations are arried out only so that the decision can be made AFTER that. Everything before that is simply speculation and must be made sure that everyone knows that. Stating it as "facts" is something that i consider misguiding people purposely.

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## Zarvan

Kurlang said:


> @Zarvan rest assured FN SCAR will not be selected. I know you are too passionate about it however as mentioned by @Arsalan there are many other parameters at play other than gun's performance.


FN SCAR is leading the Gun trials and giving best performance so rest assured their are massive chances of FN SCAR winning competition

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## Sparkle229

Kurlang said:


> @Zarvan rest assured FN SCAR will not be selected. I know you are too passionate about it however as mentioned by @Arsalan there are many other parameters at play other than gun's performance.


Noooooooooooooo


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## Thorough Pro

I may not be smart, but you sure look dumb. Today, social media is the most widely and effectively used tool for advertising and information collection.



Wolfhound said:


> Firstly, I don't think that the Belgian officials are stupid enough to check public forums for information on their products performance. Secondly, they don't need to go out looking for information on the internet as they have sent a team here specifically for the trials through which they get all the information they would ever need. So please don't try to be smart when your not and try to jump to conclusions.


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## Wolfhound

Thorough Pro said:


> I may not be smart, but you sure look dumb. Today, social media is the most widely and effectively used tool for advertising and information collection.


Be that as it may, give me one solid reason as to why Belgian officials would need to *collect *and *verify* a *shitload of information* form the internet when they have sent a delegation here for that very purpose and have relative ease of access to it?

P.S Performance based results are almost never a secret.


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## Thorough Pro

Similarly other contenders would also have sent their delegates with their weapons and they all would be curious to know how the others are performing in the trials and surely they won't be talking to each other about their performance and neither would the officials carrying out the tests. So what avenue is left for the delegates to explore?





Wolfhound said:


> Be that as it may, give me one solid reason as to why Belgian officials would need to *collect *and *verify* a *shitload of information* form the internet when they have sent a delegation here for that very purpose and have relative ease of access to it?
> 
> P.S Performance based results are almost never a secret.


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## Quwa

@Arsalan I still think the CZ BREN 2 would make a good fit, especially if we can bundle in a Meopta optics plant in Pakistan.

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## Wolfhound

Quwa said:


> @Arsalan I still think the CZ BREN 2 would make a good fit, especially if we can bundle in a Meopta optics plant in Pakistan.


Plus, we can go for the Scorpion Evo as well

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## Zarvan

Wolfhound said:


> Plus, we can go for the Scorpion Evo as well


Sir any latest news and has HK-417 also arrived as Mr Arsalan have suggested ?


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## Wolfhound

Zarvan said:


> Sir any latest news and has HK-417 also arrived as Mr Arsalan have suggested ?


I cannot confirm this as of right now but will look into it. If the Hk-417 is also in the competition then it will be the only true adversary for the Fn-Scar, plus it will open a ton of options like the Hk-121, Mp-7 and UMP as well. Referencing our past dealings with Heckler and Kosh it will also be a smother option.


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## Zarvan

Wolfhound said:


> I cannot confirm this as of right now but will look into it. If the Hk-417 is also in the competition then it will be the only true adversary for the Fn-Scar, plus it will open a ton of options like the Hk-121, Mp-7 and UMP as well. Referencing our past dealings with Heckler and Kosh it will also be a smother option.


Exactly that is only Gun which can give tough competition to FN SCAR



Wolfhound said:


> I cannot confirm this as of right now but will look into it. If the Hk-417 is also in the competition then it will be the only true adversary for the Fn-Scar, plus it will open a ton of options like the Hk-121, Mp-7 and UMP as well. Referencing our past dealings with Heckler and Kosh it will also be a smother option.


Guys I just talked to a guy and he has shown me proof and has told me that Pakistan most probably will go for two Guns one would replace G3 and one would replace Type 56. And that guy has proof. So things are changing now
@Sulman Badshah @balixd @Arsalan @Quwa @Tipu7 @






My Beloved Girlfriend FN SCAR @waz @Horus @Oscar

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## Wolfhound

Zarvan said:


> Guys I just talked to a guy and he has shown me proof and has told me that Pakistan most probably will go for* two Guns* one would replace G3 and one would replace Type 56. And that guy has proof. So things are changing now
> @Sulman Badshah @balixd @Arsalan @Quwa @Tipu7


Are you completely sure that he wasnt talking about two different caliber's of the same weapon e.g (Scar 16 and 17) instead of two completely different rifles e.g (Fn Scar and Hk 419)?



Zarvan said:


> My Beloved Girlfriend FN SCAR @waz @Horus @Oscar


 Hahaha! She looks very pretty MA


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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> Exactly that is only Gun which can give tough competition to FN SCAR
> 
> 
> Guys I just talked to a guy and he has shown me proof and has told me that Pakistan most probably will go for two Guns one would replace G3 and one would replace Type 56. And that guy has proof. So things are changing now
> @Sulman Badshah @balixd @Arsalan @Quwa @Tipu7 @
> 
> My Beloved Girlfriend FN SCAR @waz @Horus @Oscar




Well that is good. Surely it wont be wise for us or for me to just accept that as a fact until it becomes one. Not that it is coming from you but even generally i like to be sure about my facts, hope you wont mind. Also since there is no mention of who that guy is and what sort of proof you are talking about, that makes things that much more complicated.

As far as i have been following, the key find remains that all these trails and process with decide on the first 10k to 12k guns. It will there performance over some years that will then decide upon what gun, if one, we chose to replace all the guns with army. Two different types wont bother me so much, it is a huge number that we MAY be looking at so at that time we may chose two types. I wont be surprised if it is one selected from these trails, produced at POF and the other a Pakistani design based on the lessons learned during the manufacturing of this selected first gun. If that is the case, the number of guns produced as a result of this trail and evaluation process will be considerable lower then "replacement of whole army"

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## Zarvan

Wolfhound said:


> Are you completely sure that he wasnt talking about two different caliber's of the same weapon e.g (Scar 16 and 17) instead of two completely different rifles e.g (Fn Scar and Hk 419)?
> 
> Hahaha! She looks very pretty MA


Yes he was talking about two different Guns not one. And this picture is not that proof what I am talking about but the proof is valid it seem only two Gun have survived the tests but still can't be sure. 

@Arsalan


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## Arsalan

Quwa said:


> @Arsalan I still think the CZ BREN 2 would make a good fit, especially if we can bundle in a Meopta optics plant in Pakistan.


I think that will be the best option, all things considered. 
You are well connected right? Have you also been hearing all the talks about a Pakistani designed and manufactured gun? It seems to be getting a lot of support from concerned circles and now the report about interest in two types may well be just that. Evaluate all that the world have to offer, select what suites you best and make it at home. Learn about some goodies and make one for yourself to be procured in higher numbers, ones that can will actually satisfy that "replacement of gun for the whole army" intention. Makes sense right?

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## Sulman Badshah



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## Quwa

Arsalan said:


> I think that will be the best option, all things considered.
> You are well connected right? Have you also been hearing all the talks about a Pakistani designed and manufactured gun? It seems to be getting a lot of support from concerned circles and now the report about interest in two types may well be just that. Evaluate all that the world have to offer, select what suites you best and make it at home. Learn about some goodies and make one for yourself to be procured in higher numbers, ones that can will actually satisfy that "replacement of gun for the whole army" intention. Makes sense right?


I'm not well connected with people in the Army, but if I had to guess, I think there's recognition among some of the value of embracing the AR-15, and then developing it up into something like the MKEK MPT-76. Remember, the AR-15 is a very common and widely embraced platform, you're not going to suffer from a lack of economies of scale and expertise, especially designers, engineers, etc, who know how to turn that platform into something.

On the other hand, the pendulum could swing the other way too ... imagine if CZ comes up and says, "pick up the BREN, and we will hook you up as our preferred vendor in our global supply chain." Remember, while some want to have a homegrown rifle, others also want to see positive foreign exchange in-flows and success in the global arms market. So yes, we could design a nice rifle based on the AR-15, but on the other hand, the AR-15's cost benefits come as a result of a vibrant and competitive supplier base. The CZ might be pricey for us to buy, but we'd also be making money (and generating jobs) by exporting its parts, and who knows, if we made the right decision, 10-15 years from now our market could grow, and we'd have early entrant advantage.

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## Zarvan

Sulman Badshah said:


> View attachment 311919


It keeps getting better and better. Did you got this from Moi# ?



Arsalan said:


> I think that will be the best option, all things considered.
> You are well connected right? Have you also been hearing all the talks about a Pakistani designed and manufactured gun? It seems to be getting a lot of support from concerned circles and now the report about interest in two types may well be just that. Evaluate all that the world have to offer, select what suites you best and make it at home. Learn about some goodies and make one for yourself to be procured in higher numbers, ones that can will actually satisfy that "replacement of gun for the whole army" intention. Makes sense right?


I am telling you Pakistan is not in mood of designing a new Assault Rifle. We are going test and from those tested and select one or two of them



Sulman Badshah said:


> View attachment 311919


It seem more SCAR have arrived because initially we didn't had Brown SCAR among those which are being tested

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## Sulman Badshah

Zarvan said:


> It keeps getting better and better. Did you got this from Moi# ?


no random page ...


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## Zarvan

Sulman Badshah said:


> no random page ...


Many pages on Facebook related to Army are breaking news that FN SCAR has been approved and selected for Armed Forces. @Arsalan @Quwa @Wolfhound @Tipu7

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## Arsalan

Quwa said:


> I'm not well connected with people in the Army, but if I had to guess, I think there's recognition among some of the value of embracing the AR-15, and then developing it up into something like the MKEK MPT-76. Remember, the AR-15 is a very common and widely embraced platform, you're not going to suffer from a lack of economies of scale and expertise, especially designers, engineers, etc, who know how to turn that platform into something.


About that, i think it is just like different people we can get to talk to have different preferences and choice. Thankfully the guns are going through a lengthy selection process and the performance trails are an important part of that evaluation process so i hope we will chose what is best for the military.



> On the other hand, the pendulum could swing the other way too ... imagine if CZ comes up and says, "pick up the BREN, and we will hook you up as our preferred vendor in our global supply chain." Remember, while some want to have a homegrown rifle, others also want to see positive foreign exchange in-flows and success in the global arms market. So yes, we could design a nice rifle based on the AR-15, but on the other hand, the AR-15's cost benefits come as a result of a vibrant and competitive supplier base. The CZ might be pricey for us to buy, but we'd also be making money (and generating jobs) by exporting its parts, and who knows, if we made the right decision, 10-15 years from now our market could grow, and we'd have early entrant advantage.


Now that "preferred vendor" thing will be a breakthrough and blow every other option.

The thing with the domestic design, that i was actually not told about very clearly for obvious reasons, was that with our intention to buy and the worlds willingness to supply, it is being looked at as a breakthrough! Again, get a fe thousand gun selected in the process, manufacture them here and then use that to either build something for yourself or make any necessary modification. Those initial 10-12k wont be the only guns of the selected type and some more may well be made after operational use and performance analysis spread over a few years, however that number may not be as big as " replacement for whole army".

Frankly, despite all those discussion and details all we can do right now is speculate.



Zarvan said:


> I am telling you Pakistan is not in mood of designing a new Assault Rifle. We are going test and from those tested and select one or two of them





Zarvan said:


> Many pages on *Facebook* related to Army are breaking news that FN SCAR has been approved and selected for Armed Forces. @Arsalan @Quwa @Wolfhound @Tipu7


And there are people who would say that Wikipedia is not reliable!


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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> About that, i think it is just like different people we can get to talk to have different preferences and choice. Thankfully the guns are going through a lengthy selection process and the performance trails are an important part of that evaluation process so i hope we will chose what is best for the military.
> 
> 
> Now that "preferred vendor" thing will be a breakthrough and blow every other option.
> 
> The thing with the domestic design, that i was actually not told about very clearly for obvious reasons, was that with our intention to buy and the worlds willingness to supply, it is being looked at as a breakthrough! Again, get a fe thousand gun selected in the process, manufacture them here and then use that to either build something for yourself or make any necessary modification. Those initial 10-12k wont be the only guns of the selected type and some more may well be made after operational use and performance analysis spread over a few years, however that number may not be as big as " replacement for whole army".
> 
> Frankly, despite all those discussion and details all we can do right now is speculate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And there are people who would say that Wikipedia is not reliable!


Their was no news of new Gun on social media but all of a sudden today several pages are discussing FN SCAR

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## Stealth

*is this FN-SCAR-H ?*

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## Zarvan

Stealth said:


> *is this FN-SCAR-H ?*
> 
> View attachment 311944
> View attachment 311945
> View attachment 311946
> View attachment 311947


Yes third picture is of FN SCAR L and others are FN SCAR H


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Yes third picture is of FN SCAR L and others are FN SCAR H


I have really begun to dislike the SCAR. all thanks to you

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## Path-Finder

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=QrKpOHMKMKs&a=

CZ Bren 806-A2

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## fitpOsitive

Wolfhound said:


> Sir they're gearing up for round 2, nothing is decided yet but the good news is that the FN Scar is on top and has had the best performance with lowest amount of stoppages in the first round.


I am not a rifle expert, but in my humble opinion, is rifle stoppage a big issue? I think time required to get rifle back to fire should be more important. What you say about it?


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=QrKpOHMKMKs&a=
> 
> CZ Bren 806-A2


CZ 806 is great Gun but doesn't match SCAR in Performance.


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> CZ 806 is great Gun but doesn't match SCAR in Performance.


 once again hyper fanboyism demolishes any chance of a civil discussion! Have you fired either of those guns? what others say does not count!


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## muhammadali233

Rana of Heryana said:


> I am not a rifle expert, but in my humble opinion, is rifle stoppage a big issue? I think time required to get rifle back to fire should be more important. What you say about it?


The current Battle rifle of pakistan the G3 is best known for its stoppage (pronounced staapage ) when you need it the most,FN-Scar H had the least stoppages till now,interestingly the AK in the competition requires the least time required to get it back from full jam to fire worthy.
fn scar reciprocating charging handle is the only major factor which is holding it back otherwise i guess it should lead the trials.

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## farhan_9909

any news about zastava?

ARX 2000 or SCAR would be very expensive.

I believe that it would either be zastava or CZ Bren


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## muhammadali233

Zarvan said:


> Yes third picture is of FN SCAR L and others are FN SCAR H


Really?
first 3 picture are of SCAR-H and the last one is of scar L
The third is more likely to be the H because it is using the box magazine not the usual stanag magazine used for scar L.


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## Zarvan

farhan_9909 said:


> any news about zastava?
> 
> ARX 2000 or SCAR would be very expensive.
> 
> I believe that it would either be zastava or CZ Bren


Zastava has least chances


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## farhan_9909

Zarvan said:


> Zastava has least chances



Any specific reason


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## Zarvan

farhan_9909 said:


> Any specific reason


Simply because all the other Guns are far better from accuracy to less recoil and less jamming.


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Simply because all the other Guns are far better from accuracy to less recoil and less jamming.


 I keep repeating my self and now I am begging to think that the Mods have given you a open hand. Can you bring forth concrete evidence please!!


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> I keep repeating my self and now I am begging to think that the Mods have given you a open hand. Can you bring forth concrete evidence please!!


Sir MODS know I am right because the information they have is suggest same but entry of HK 417 is interesting and @balixd Sir you are needed here

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## mingle

Path-Finder said:


> once again hyper fanboyism demolishes any chance of a civil discussion! Have you fired either of those guns? what others say does not count!


Cheif going to CZ its a reason he is going there .


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## Quwa

@Zarvan be sure to get someone to record a reaction video of you when you have a chance to visit my website

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## Inception-06

Quwa said:


> @Zarvan be sure to get someone to record a reaction video of you when you have a chance to visit my website




I hope it come with the Items such rail, night Vision , Red Dot light, grenade launcher etc and not only the naked rifle !

by the way the same rifle is produced in India since years !


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## Path-Finder

mingle said:


> Cheif going to CZ its a reason he is going there .


 you are going to give @Zarvan a heart attack!


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## Zarvan

mingle said:


> Cheif going to CZ its a reason he is going there .


HK-417 is in the competition as well as MPT-76 Chief also went in those countries buy nothing happened @Quwa and @Path-Finder


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## Path-Finder

Quwa said:


> @Zarvan be sure to get someone to record a reaction video of you when you have a chance to visit my website


 the picture on your website is of a Zastava not AK-103?

http://quwa.org/2016/06/21/pakistan-army-selected-ak-103/


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## Quwa

Path-Finder said:


> the picture on your website is of a Zastava not AK-103?
> 
> http://quwa.org/2016/06/21/pakistan-army-selected-ak-103/


Changed... but did you record the video?


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## Path-Finder

Quwa said:


> Changed... but did you record the video?


 unfortunately I am "saath samandar paar" from @Zarvan to carry out this task

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Ulla said:


> I hope it come with the Items such rail, night Vision , Red Dot light, grenade launcher etc and not only the naked rifle !



Bro that's the version that was presented .. That's the requirement .. Don't you see the amount of rifles with scopes and stuff PA is using these days.



> by the way the same rifle is produced in India since years !



Nah Bro.. They copied the AK-47/AKM .. The Russians made a big problem and they had to stop the production.

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## Inception-06

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Bro that's the version that was presented .. That's the requirement .. Don't you see the amount of rifles with scopes and stuff PA is using these days.
> 
> 
> 
> Nah Bro.. They copied the AK-47/AKM .. The Russians made a big problem and they had to stop the production.




Good to know that !


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## Zarvan

Trials are not over @Quwa Trials are still on going @balixd Where are you Sir ?


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## FNFAL

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Nah Bro.. They copied the AK-47/AKM .. The Russians made a big problem and they had to stop the production.



Yup Russia did make a noise, but we did not stop. We still produce a variant called Ghatak. Some pics.







From a Defexpo OFB Booth:


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## DESERT FIGHTER

FNFAL said:


> Yup Russia did make a noise, but we did not stop. We still produce a variant called Ghatak. Some pics.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From a Defexpo OFB Booth:




Doesn't seem like it;

http://www.ibtimes.co.in/defexpo-2016-ak-47-production-may-soon-happen-india-672666

Seems the Russians succeeded .. This illegal clone was capped and now they want India to buy it from them .. Most likely pay them (russians) royality and other costs for producing it..


Pak also produces the AK .. Russians made an issue but since at the time Pak-Russia didn't have the best of relations we produced them anyways... Although we stopped marketing them...

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## FNFAL

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Doesn't seem like it;
> 
> http://www.ibtimes.co.in/defexpo-2016-ak-47-production-may-soon-happen-india-672666
> 
> Seems the Russians succeeded .. This illegal clone was capped and now they want India to buy it from them .. Most likely pay them (russians) royality and other costs for producing it..
> 
> 
> Pak also produces the AK .. Russians made an issue but since at the time Pak-Russia didn't have the best of relations we produced them anyways... Although we stopped marketing them...



Nopes. This was the illegal AKM copy: It was simply called "Assault Rifle 7.62" or AK-7. This is what General Kalashnikov objected to, when he visited India only once, in February 2004 where he kicked up a row




The OFB rolled out the other clone called ghatak in 2014. Before that there another clone called trichy assault rifle.That didnt make thru tho.

From the link above, its actually the AK-100 series that Izmash was hopeful of selling to india, in light of competition from eastern europe clones...Izmash's last success with India was the AK103 to the marcos. Disregrad the Ak47 moniker as defence jounos in india are jokers.

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Trials are not over @Quwa Trials are still on going @balixd Where are you Sir ?


 correction! Trials for *7.62x39 *are over and AK103 won. Trials for *7.62x51 *are ongoing. I suggest you make most of the blessed month of Ramadan and pray hard for SCAR.


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> correction! Trials for *7.62x39 *are over and AK103 won. Trials for *7.62x51 *are ongoing. I suggest you make most of the blessed month of Ramadan and pray hard for SCAR.


Funny thing is only AK-103 in the competition had 7.62 X 39 Caliber so I have even questions on whether it would replace Type 56 or not.


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## RAMPAGE

Zarvan said:


> Funny thing is only AK-103 in the competition had 7.62 X 39 Caliber so I have even questions on whether it would replace Type 56 or not.
> View attachment 312704
> 
> View attachment 312705
> 
> View attachment 312706
> 
> View attachment 312707


Zarvan thora khao peo bhai. Dimaagh thora fresh karo. That picture of CZ that I posted in my reply was a .39 variant. Look at the magazine. Ye baat pooray forum ko maheenon sai pata hai aur aap ki ab pata chal raha hai?

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## Quwa

After seeing photos of the SCAR on this thread so many times, I hope the Zastava M77 wins the 7.62x51 NATO need. Forget even the BREN, it just looks too similar to SCAR.

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## Zarvan

RAMPAGE said:


> Zarvan thora khao peo bhai. Dimaagh thora fresh karo. That picture of CZ that I posted in my reply was a .39 variant. Look at the magazine. Ye baat pooray forum ko maheenon sai pata hai aur aap ki ab pata chal raha hai?
> View attachment 312713


Well if AK-103 is selected to replace TYPE 56 than I am waiting to hear about G3 replacement soon


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## RAMPAGE

Quwa said:


> After seeing photos of the SCAR on this thread so many times, I hope the Zastava M77 wins the 7.62x51 NATO need. Forget even the BREN, it just looks too similar to SCAR.

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## Quwa

RAMPAGE said:


>


Zastava M77 with fake wood panels and stock.

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## Path-Finder

Quwa said:


> After seeing photos of the SCAR on this thread so many times, I hope the Zastava M77 wins the 7.62x51 NATO need. Forget even the BREN, it just looks too similar to SCAR.


 I want to see Old American M21 being adopted  as the 7.62x51 rifle

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## PAR 5

I have voted for AK103 above and my sources in the Infantry are confirming the tilt towards this platform for the following reasons I had mentioned earlier as well.

- Lowest Price
- Easy conversion of Pak Army soldiers to use (for Type 56)
- Appeasement of Russia for future relations
- Cheaper to maintain and repair
- Good value for money

However, the final decision to this aspect is now expected by end of next fiscal year because of funding issues with GHQ.


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## Zarvan

PAR 5 said:


> I have voted for AK103 above and my sources in the Infantry are confirming the tilt towards this platform for the following reasons I had mentioned earlier as well.
> 
> - Lowest Price
> - Easy conversion of Pak Army soldiers to use (for Type 56)
> - Appeasement of Russia for future relations
> - Cheaper to maintain and repair
> - Good value for money
> 
> However, the final decision to this aspect is now expected by end of next fiscal year because of funding issues with GHQ.


It would replace Type 56 if selected not G3. Chances are growing that we may select two Guns.


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> It would replace Type 56 if selected not G3. Chances are growing that we may select two Guns.


 can you maybe also stop continiously posting pictures of SCAR as well. Honestly a few of us are now really begging to dislike that weapon!!


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> can you maybe also stop continiously posting pictures of SCAR as well. Honestly a few of us are now really begging to dislike that weapon!!


I like to post good pictures. By the way if we are looking to go for two Guns. One two replace G3 and other to replace Type 56 than we should test Russia's new AK 12


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## Arsalan




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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> I like to post good pictures. By the way if we are looking to go for two Guns. One two replace G3 and other to replace Type 56 than we should test Russia's new AK 12


AK 12 is 5.45x39!! Not a calibre we are adopting any time soon.


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> AK 12 is 5.45x39!! Not a calibre we are adopting any time soon.


AK-12 is available in 7.62 X 39 caliber also


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> AK-12 is available in 7.62 X 39 caliber also


Show me please.


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## Amaa'n

What actually the news is that AK103 and FN SCAR H outperformed the competitors in their categories and are in next phase of the trails......more are less final phase

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## muhammadali233

balixd said:


> What actually the news is that AK103 and FN SCAR H outperformed the competitors in their categories and are in next phase of the trails......more are less final phase


Great news!

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## Zarvan

balixd said:


> What actually the news is that AK103 and FN SCAR H outperformed the competitors in their categories and are in next phase of the trails......more are less final phase


Thanks Sir I hope FN SCAR wins or we select both. One replaces G3 and one replaces Type 56.









@Sulman Badshah @Tipu7 @balixd @Path-Finder @Arsalan

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## Arsalan

balixd said:


> What actually the news is that AK103 and FN SCAR H outperformed the competitors in their categories and are in next phase of the trails......more are less final phase


I doubt the "AK103 outperforming" part but if you say so. 

Plus i have again been confirmed that the plan is to go for a few thousand guns after selection is done (in which as mentioned again, performance is going to be ONE of the parameters). That will enable more rigorous evaluation in battle field as well as with operational units and a decisions to use the same to replace the guns of whole army will be made only after that. It gives 3-4 years time i would say until a decision is made official as confirmed that the selected gun will replace the G3 in whole army. There still is some serious support for a local design and the lessons learned from the selected gun may well make an indigenous gun even more favorable. One thing new was that even the above is the most probable line of action, the news that will come out will be "playing with words" sort of thing indicating as if the whole army will get the same gun (for obvious reasons of not scaring off the selected supplier). One very interesting fact that i have been told about is that at least one of the participants in current trails have offered help for that "indigenous gun" as well. I mean it came as a proposal from them as well  That can be a huge factor when decision is made. 
I may visit Wah Cantt the weekend after Eid and it will be easier to get more info then and will also be in better position to decide what to share.

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## RAMPAGE

balixd said:


> What actually the news is that AK103 and FN SCAR H outperformed the competitors in their categories and are in next phase of the trails......more are less final phase


Do we hav a CZ Bren in 7.62 NATO category?


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## muhammadali233

I stumbled upon this vid,FN scar is already operational with taliban ,they were apparently able to capture it from the ANA.
As much as i know ANA doesn't operate FN scar.

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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> I doubt the "AK103 outperforming" part but if you say so.
> 
> Plus i have again been confirmed that the plan is to go for a few thousand guns after selection is done (in which as mentioned again, performance is going to be ONE of the parameters). That will enable more rigorous evaluation in battle field as well as with operational units and a decisions to use the same to replace the guns of whole army will be made only after that. It gives 3-4 years time i would say until a decision is made official as confirmed that the selected gun will replace the G3 in whole army. There still is some serious support for a local design and the lessons learned from the selected gun may well make an indigenous gun even more favorable. One thing new was that even the above is the most probable line of action, the news that will come out will be "playing with words" sort of thing indicating as if the whole army will get the same gun (for obvious reasons of not scaring off the selected supplier). One very interesting fact that i have been told about is that at least one of the participants in current trails have offered help for that "indigenous gun" as well. I mean it came as a proposal from them as well  That can be a huge factor when decision is made.
> I may visit Wah Cantt the weekend after Eid and it will be easier to get more info then and will also be in better position to decide what to share.


Sir we are not going for few Guns we are going for TOT and mass production and may be export. That is why POF is getting massively upgraded


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## Quwa

Arsalan said:


> I doubt the "AK103 outperforming" part but if you say so.
> 
> Plus i have again been confirmed that the plan is to go for a few thousand guns after selection is done (in which as mentioned again, performance is going to be ONE of the parameters). That will enable more rigorous evaluation in battle field as well as with operational units and a decisions to use the same to replace the guns of whole army will be made only after that. It gives 3-4 years time i would say until a decision is made official as confirmed that the selected gun will replace the G3 in whole army. There still is some serious support for a local design and the lessons learned from the selected gun may well make an indigenous gun even more favorable. One thing new was that even the above is the most probable line of action, the news that will come out will be "playing with words" sort of thing indicating as if the whole army will get the same gun (for obvious reasons of not scaring off the selected supplier). One very interesting fact that i have been told about is that at least one of the participants in current trails have offered help for that "indigenous gun" as well. I mean it came as a proposal from them as well  That can be a huge factor when decision is made.
> I may visit Wah Cantt the weekend after Eid and it will be easier to get more info then and will also be in better position to decide what to share.


It'd be Zastava or CZ I reckon (the one who offered help on an indigenous design).

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## RAMPAGE

@Icarus 

Any personal favourites? 

@balixd 

I seem to have lost that picture of CZ 807 with the mag inserted. Can you post it again please?


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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> Sir we are not going for few Guns we are going for TOT and mass production and may be export. That is why POF is getting massively upgraded


not yet! 
This may be what people will start saying (they are not even saying yet, not the people who matter at least). The proposed path will most likely be the one that i suggested and this is coming from director level not Facebook pages sir. Anyway, i am not going to speculate any further for now, have shared what i had to share. 



Quwa said:


> It'd be Zastava or CZ I reckon (the one who offered help on an indigenous design).


Not being talked about yet  
Anyway, whatever is selected we are likely to build some thousand units (upwards of 10k) and then a decision will be made to how to proceed with replacement for whole army. We may see continued production, continued production with some tweaks OR another gun based on the lessons learned.

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## Imran Khan

i will be happy if we got SCAR or HK-416


----------



## Zarvan

Adalbert Ada said:


> For Pakistan more logical option is HK 416


Well we like to use 7.62 X 51 Caliber so HK-417 could have been the option but Germany comes up with human rights crap far too often. As for @RAMPAGE and @balixd Sir I have a picture on which I want to message you on facebook please add me



Imran Khan said:


> i will be happy if we got SCAR or HK-416


Well I am also hoping for SCAR


----------



## Imran Khan

Zarvan said:


> Well we like to use 7.62 X 51 Caliber so HK-417 could have been the option but Germany comes up with human rights crap far too often. As for @RAMPAGE and @balixd Sir I have a picture on which I want to message you on facebook please add me
> 
> 
> Well I am also hoping for SCAR


i have one point . pakistan army change the service rifle after every 30-40 years so we need to get something best that can work for us next 30-40 years

btw why no QBZ in this race?

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## Zarvan

Imran Khan said:


> i have one point . pakistan army change the service rifle after every 30-40 years so we need to get something best that can work for us next 30-40 years
> 
> btw why no QBZ in this race?


Because China is also looking to replace its QBZ



Imran Khan said:


> i have one point . pakistan army change the service rifle after every 30-40 years so we need to get something best that can work for us next 30-40 years
> 
> btw why no QBZ in this race?


For that we need SCAR because AK-103 is already 25 years old weapon

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## Imran Khan

Zarvan said:


> Because China is also looking to replace its QBZ
> 
> 
> For that we need SCAR because AK-103 is already 25 years old weapon


that is what exactly my point if we got old design and tech soon our guns will be outdated SCAR can be a modern gun even after 20 years

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## RAMPAGE

Adalbert Ada said:


> As per some article in defense journal i read about Pakistani replacement program where retired army Gen talking about different types of rifles for different defense forces of Pakistan may be Pakistan acquire multiple rifles.
> 
> Germany could easily agree on license production for it so let’s see what coming on.
> 
> As per some article in defense journal i read about Pakistani replacement program where retired army Gen talking about different types of rifles for different defense forces of Pakistan may be Pakistan acquire multiple rifles.
> 
> Germany could easily agree on license production for it so let’s see what coming on.


That's not it. The rifle I'm referring to has its barrel replaced for supporting 7.62x39 ammo. That particular rifle is with the Pakistan Army for evaluation. This is its picture but without the 7.62x39 magazine inserted in. I'm looking for the picture in which the magazine is inserted in. 







Welcome to PDF, by the way. Hope to see you representing Germany on this forum.

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## Imran Khan

RAMPAGE said:


> That's not it. The rifle I'm referring to has its barrel replaced for supporting 7.62x39 ammo. That particular rifle is with the Pakistan Army for evaluation. This is its picture but without the 7.62x39 magazine inserted in. I'm looking for the picture in which the magazine is inserted in.
> 
> View attachment 313226
> 
> 
> 
> Welcome to PDF, by the way. Hope to see you representing Germany on this forum.


but why we stuck on 7.62 sir ? because we have ammo in hands ?


----------



## RAMPAGE

Imran Khan said:


> but why we stuck on 7.62 sir ? because we have ammo in hands ?


Imran bhai, Ab sir keh kar sharminda tou na karain. 

7.62x51 NATO or 7.62.39?


----------



## Imran Khan

RAMPAGE said:


> Imran bhai, Ab sir keh kar sharminda tou na karain.
> 
> 7.62x51 NATO or 7.62.39?


no man you guys have more info 

BTW i was asking abut 7.62×51mm NATO


----------



## RAMPAGE

Adalbert Ada said:


> May be lot cheaper and may be Pakistan ordinance factories with comfortable to produce it easily.


It has to do with superior stopping power at long ranges compared to 5.56. Pakistan Army is usually involved in long range confrontations.

@Imran Khan

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## Imran Khan

Adalbert Ada said:


> May be lot cheaper and may be Pakistan ordinance factories with comfortable to produce it easily.


we can produce other ammo also .and just because we produce so we stuck on it ? sometime change is good sir


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

Adalbert Ada said:


> For Pakistan more logical option is HK 416





Imran Khan said:


> i will be happy if we got SCAR or HK-416



417.. Not 6.

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## Imran Khan

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> 417.. Not 6.
> 
> View attachment 313241


ok sir as you wish its only one digit can be forgiven

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## LadyFinger

Nice rifles.


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## Zarvan

Adalbert Ada said:


> As per some article in defense journal i read about Pakistani replacement program where retired army Gen talking about different types of rifles for different defense forces of Pakistan may be Pakistan acquire multiple rifles.
> 
> Germany could easily agree on license production for it so let’s see what coming on.
> 
> As per some article in defense journal i read about Pakistani replacement program where retired army Gen talking about different types of rifles for different defense forces of Pakistan may be Pakistan acquire multiple rifles.
> 
> Germany could easily agree on license production for it so let’s see what coming on.


Can you share the link of that interview.
Also if FN SCAR H and AK-103 are in final round than sorry but that is not final round because both Guns belong to different Calibers the only reasonable answer is we are going for both Guns to replace both G3 as well as Type 56


----------



## Zarvan

Adalbert Ada said:


> Sorry i can't find it on net i read it in a printed military journal.


By the way a friend just said to me on Facebook that he just met a senior Army officer in Masjid and asked him about Guns. It seem FN SCAR would win @balixd


----------



## RAMPAGE

Zarvan said:


> Well we like to use 7.62 X 51 Caliber so HK-417 could have been the option but Germany comes up with human rights crap far too often. As for @RAMPAGE and @balixd Sir I have a picture on which I want to message you on facebook please add me
> 
> 
> Well I am also hoping for SCAR


Sorry yaar. I have limited my friendlist to family and a few friends only.


----------



## Sulman Badshah

Adalbert Ada said:


> For Pakistan more logical option is HK 416


HK 417 is already in trials

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## Zarvan

RAMPAGE said:


> Sorry yaar. I have limited my friendlist to family and a few friends only.


If you know my profile just send a message I would send you the picture. No need to add me



Sulman Badshah said:


> HK 417 is already in trials


Moid says he talked to senior Army Officer is Masjid and that officer told him that SCAR is on top in trials

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## farhan_9909

Zarvan said:


> If you know my profile just send a message I would send you the picture. No need to add me
> 
> 
> Moid says he talked to senior Army Officer is Masjid and that officer told him that SCAR is on top in trials



In which city the trials are carried out?


----------



## Amaa'n

farhan_9909 said:


> In which city the trials are carried out?


Kharian



Zarvan said:


> By the way a friend just said to me on Facebook that he just met a senior Army officer in Masjid and asked him about Guns. It seem FN SCAR would win @balixd


Ask horus to drop in the PM the cat is oout of bag, just share the pic here, blurout the face, and surroundings like i did with vt4

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## farhan_9909

balixd said:


> Kharian



A very stupid question.A captain in army medical corps will get a gun?i have seen them with pistols but do they get the standard assault rifle of the army?


----------



## Path-Finder

Imran Khan said:


> no man you guys have more info
> 
> BTW i was asking abut 7.62×51mm NATO


 The doctrine is once the enemy is shot the enemy should be dead, not taken away to be mended that is why 7.62 ammo is making a comeback and 5.56 is being replaced slowly.


----------



## Amaa'n

@RAMPAGE sorry bro, they are gone, deleted from my phone......i dont have the back up.....

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## RAMPAGE

balixd said:


> @RAMPAGE sorry bro, they are gone, deleted from my phone......i dont have the back up.....


NP. BTW Zarvan has something interesting to show you.


----------



## Zarvan

balixd said:


> @RAMPAGE sorry bro, they are gone, deleted from my phone......i dont have the back up.....

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## RAMPAGE

Zarvan said:


> View attachment 313270


@Sinan @T-123456 @cabatli_53 

MPT-76 is here. Thanks to Zarvan for the pic. 



farhan_9909 said:


> A very stupid question.A captain in army medical corps will get a gun?i have seen them with pistols but do they get the standard assault rifle of the army?




@DESERT FIGHTER @Path-Finder

We've received new rifles it seems. Can't identify the second one however the first one from right is MPT-76.

@S.U.R.B.

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## Path-Finder

RAMPAGE said:


> @Sinan @T-123456 @cabatli_53
> 
> MPT-76 is here. Thanks to Zarvan for the pic.
> 
> 
> 
> @DESERT FIGHTER @Path-Finder
> 
> We've received new rifles it seems. Can't identify the second one however the first one from right is MPT-76.
> 
> @S.U.R.B.


FN SCAR (for Zarvan mentioned it first) Type 56 ON TOP, AK 103 under type 56,ARX 200 to far left, Some variant of AR15 & not HK417, very Far right CAN be HK417 OR MPT-76

The Poor Zastava was left out as only its stock is visible.


----------



## T-123456

RAMPAGE said:


> @Sinan @T-123456 @cabatli_53
> 
> MPT-76 is here. Thanks to Zarvan for the pic.
> 
> 
> 
> @DESERT FIGHTER @Path-Finder
> 
> We've received new rifles it seems. Can't identify the second one however the first one from right is MPT-76.
> 
> @S.U.R.B.


I dont see the MPT-76?
Oops,could be the one on the right.

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## fitpOsitive

Path-Finder said:


> FN SCAR (for Zarvan mentioned it first) Type 56 ON TOP, AK 103 under type 56,ARX 200 to far left, Some variant of AR15 & not HK417, very Far right CAN be HK417 OR MPT-76
> 
> The Poor Zastava was left out as only its stock is visible.


Zastava is out? Maaaaaan. Cant believe it, how can they do that?


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

Zarvan said:


> View attachment 313270



@MilSpec is that a HK next to the MPT?



T-123456 said:


> I dont see the MPT-76?


The righ most one is a MPT.

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## Path-Finder

Rana of Heryana said:


> Zastava is out? Maaaaaan. Cant believe it, how can they do that?


 No it is not the picture shows only its stock i.e the foldable stock is visible and not the whole rifle! the photographer did not put it in the frame.

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## T-123456

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> The righ most one is a MPT.


I edited my post.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Rana of Heryana said:


> Zastava is out? Maaaaaan. Cant believe it, how can they do that?


Zastava modernised M-77 is the left one whose stock is visible.


----------



## Path-Finder

RAMPAGE said:


> @Sinan @T-123456 @cabatli_53
> 
> MPT-76 is here. Thanks to Zarvan for the pic.
> 
> 
> 
> @DESERT FIGHTER @Path-Finder
> 
> We've received new rifles it seems. Can't identify the second one however the first one from right is MPT-76.
> 
> 
> @S.U.R.B.


 One more thing there are two SCAR in the picture! Normal SCAR H & SCAR designated Marksmen rifle! @Zarvan your eidi is here now please dont post too many pictures of SCAR

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## T-123456

@DESERT FIGHTER ,@Zarvan ,@RAMPAGE ,does this mean that the MPT-76 is in the competition?

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## RAMPAGE

T-123456 said:


> @DESERT FIGHTER ,@Zarvan ,@RAMPAGE ,does this mean that the MPT-76 is in the competition?


Of course it is.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

T-123456 said:


> @DESERT FIGHTER ,@Zarvan ,@RAMPAGE ,does this mean that the MPT-76 is in the competition?


Yes sir.



T-123456 said:


> @DESERT FIGHTER ,@Zarvan ,@RAMPAGE ,does this mean that the MPT-76 is in the competition?


Yes sir.

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## Tipu7

Zarvan said:


> View attachment 313270


you created the storm once again

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## RAMPAGE

Path-Finder said:


> Some variant of AR15


That is what I thought but who is the OEM I wonder.


----------



## Path-Finder

RAMPAGE said:


> That is what I thought but who is the OEM I wonder.


some pages back information was posted about american entry into the competition by some company. Honestly MPT-76 & This AR15 variant are similar Because they both have the Eugene Stoner Design


----------



## Zarvan

@balixd Sir I am waiting for your response on the picture


----------



## Sulman Badshah

RAMPAGE said:


> @Sinan @T-123456 @cabatli_53
> 
> MPT-76 is here. Thanks to Zarvan for the pic.
> 
> 
> 
> @DESERT FIGHTER @Path-Finder
> 
> We've received new rifles it seems. Can't identify the second one however the first one from right is MPT-76.
> 
> @S.U.R.B.


that's HK417

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## Amaa'n

@RAMPAGE @Zarvan as saidnearlier we were to receive PWS from US, i believe it is the same on the left next to MPT



Zarvan said:


> @balixd Sir I am waiting for your response on the picture


Pic is way too blurry to make out the exact origin, but ifnword was to be believed then it is PWS


----------



## Zarvan

balixd said:


> @RAMPAGE @Zarvan as saidnearlier we were to receive PWS from US, i believe it is the same on the left next to MPT
> 
> 
> Pic is way too blurry to make out the exact origin, but ifnword was to be believed then it is PWS


Sir can you ask your sources what's going on because now new Guns are clearly in the game. By the way the guy who send me this just claimed that he talked to senior Army Guy who he met in mosque and he said FN SCAR is on top but still I would appreciate your sources






PWS MK114 it could be the Gun


----------



## Amaa'n

Sulman Badshah said:


> that's HK417


Hk 417 comes with low profile gas block, hence handguard is complete over the barrel, front sight is mounted on Rails on that, clearly not the case here



Zarvan said:


> Sir can you ask your sources what's going on because now new Guns are clearly in the game. By the way the guy who send me this just claimed that he talked to senior Army Guy who he met in mosque and he said FN SCAR is on top but still I would appreciate your sources
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PWS MK114 it could be the Gun


I already said what i knew, fn scar is out on the top in trails.....but other factors need to be considered, and further trails......

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## Kompromat

No TOT with hk.


----------



## MilSpec

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> @MilSpec is that a HK next to the MPT?
> 
> 
> The righ most one is a MPT.


Yupp, that's a 417 with

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## DESERT FIGHTER

SvenSvensonov said:


> Correct. Second from the right, next to the MPT 76 is an HK417:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In the pic @Zarvan posted
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the front sight is up as is the rear sight, it also has a longer barrel and a few extra holes along the upper grip, but it's an HK417.
> 
> You'll see cutout slots on the 416, but not often on the 417.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The ones in the pic Zarvan offer are totally different though. It looks as if the gun's got a different front grip altogether.
> 
> It's a bit more rounded like this 417.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And is probably closer to this Norwegian version.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's definitely an HK417 though.


Guess I was right..

Thank you Sven & MilSpec. For the confirmation.



Horus said:


> No TOT with hk.



Yeah I guess if selected they will order a million units from HK instead of producing them lol.

According to GHQ... Any weapon selected will be produced unde license... 

Unless they select 2 rifles .. One to replace the Type... Which is unlikely..

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## Amaa'n



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## RAMPAGE

Lower receiver for HK-417






Lower receiver for PWS MK220






Now compare them to the lower receiver of that rifle above.

@balixd @SvenSvensonov @DESERT FIGHTER @Zarvan

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## Zarvan

When you people end up deciding which is the 2nd Gun from right plz inform me ?



RAMPAGE said:


> View attachment 313293


@balixd is right !!! This is not HK-417 but American PWS Gun.





PWS MK 116

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## Path-Finder

RAMPAGE said:


> View attachment 313293
> 
> 
> View attachment 313294
> 
> 
> Lower receiver for HK-417
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lower receiver for PWS MK220
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now compare them to the lower receiver of that rifle above.
> 
> @balixd @SvenSvensonov @DESERT FIGHTER @Zarvan


I am quite certain its not HK417 but rather AR15 variant!

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## SvenSvensonov

RAMPAGE said:


> @balixd @SvenSvensonov @DESERT FIGHTER @Zarvan



I hate being wrong, but I'm no stubborn *ss to argue when I'm beaten either. It does look more like the MK216 then anything else doesn't it?





















And a marksman version with a different front grip and stock






Nice detective work.

Guess I'll stick to submarines and satellites.

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## RAMPAGE

SvenSvensonov said:


> I hate being wrong, but I'm no stubborn *ss to argue when I'm beaten either. It does look more like the MK216 then anything else doesn't it?
> 
> View attachment 313310
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And a marksman version with a different front grip and stock
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nice detective work.
> 
> Guess I'll stick to submarines and satellites.


Your participation is very welcome and appreciated.


----------



## Max Pain

SvenSvensonov said:


> I hate being wrong, but I'm no stubborn *ss to argue when I'm beaten either. It does look more like the MK216 then anything else doesn't it?
> 
> View attachment 313310
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And a marksman version with a different front grip and stock
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nice detective work.
> 
> Guess I'll stick to submarines and satellites.


Your contribution still nevertheless is appreciated


----------



## Arsalan

Imran Khan said:


> but why we stuck on 7.62 sir ? because we have ammo in hands ?


Sir it is because:

It is a proven ammo, proven in wars and battles more then once
have excellent stopping power over other different ammo options
We have huge stockpiles of this
Our factories are built for this and we are quite good at making this.
And i am sure there will be a couple of other advantages as well. No need to fix something that is not broken! 7.62×51mm is an excellent choice and have we been using any other perhaps then i would have hoped that we changed and change this size.

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## Bratva

Tipu7 said:


> you created the storm once again



Molvi Previous Sins of spamming the thread forgiven !

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## Zarvan

Tipu7 said:


> you created the storm once again


I am famous for doing that nothing new. But reports of FN SCAR and AK-103 both getting selected are getting stronger and stronger by every passing day

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## Sulman Badshah

Arsalan said:


> Sir it is because:
> 
> It is a proven ammo, proven in wars and battles more then once
> have excellent stopping power over other different ammo options
> We have huge stockpiles of this
> Our factories are built for this and we are quite good at making this.
> And i am sure there will be a couple of other advantages as well. No need to fix something that is not broken! 7.62×51mm is an excellent choice and have we been using any other perhaps then i would have hoped that we changed and change this size.


Despite the advantages being mentioned by arsalan ...One of major advantage of 7.62x51mm is that it can pierce kevlers and can be lethal even at longer range ... 

Here is G3A3 at 600 meters piercing 4mm thick plate

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## RAMPAGE

I wonder how well the G3S did compared to other 7.76 NATO rifles.

@balixd @Zarvan

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## Zarvan

RAMPAGE said:


> I wonder how well the G3S did compared to other 7.76 NATO rifles.
> 
> @balixd @Zarvan


G3 has always performed great specially when it comes to accuracy and range


----------



## RAMPAGE

@balixd @DESERT FIGHTER

Why is this Malaysian company selling POF products? 

http://dcssb.com.my/?page_id=308

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## Sulman Badshah

RAMPAGE said:


> @balixd @DESERT FIGHTER
> 
> Why is this Malaysian company selling POF products?
> 
> http://dcssb.com.my/?page_id=308
> 
> View attachment 313588
> View attachment 313589


I wonder special weapon category will also be filled with POF eye

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> G3 has always performed great specially when it comes to accuracy and range


Zarvan G3 is not better than SCAR or is the Roza got to you now!!

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Zarvan G3 is not better than SCAR or is the Roza got to you now!!


I never said its better than SCAR but yes it's hell accurate and also can fire at long range but doesn't matches SCAR


----------



## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> I never said its better than SCAR but yes it's hell accurate and also can fire at long range but doesn't matches SCAR


 Why always so serious lighten up a little


----------



## Zarvan




----------



## Arsalan

RAMPAGE said:


> I wonder how well the G3S did compared to other 7.76 NATO rifles.
> 
> @balixd @Zarvan


Right there on top!! 
EXCELLENT range with great accuracy and extremely reliable. 
No need to mention the power of this beast. 

G3 is a proven battlefield rifle and surely it have something in to be serving for over 50 years now!

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## RAMPAGE

Arsalan said:


> Right there on top!!
> EXCELLENT range with great accuracy and extremely reliable.
> No need to mention the power of this beast.
> 
> G3 is a proven battlefield rifle and surely it have something in to be serving for over 50 years now!


The upgraded G3M right? This one?


----------



## Arsalan

RAMPAGE said:


> The upgraded G3M right? This one?


G3 is the decades old reliable gun. All variants came at different times based on needs of the customer and the developments/progress in technology. Through these timely upgrades and variants it is safe to praise G3 in general and that is what i did in the initial post.


----------



## RAMPAGE

Arsalan said:


> G3 is the decades old reliable gun. All variants came at different times based on needs of the customer and the developments/progress in technology. Through these timely upgrades and variants it is safe to praise G3 in general and that is what i did in the initial post.


I was wondering if the contestant rifles offer any significant improvements over the latest G3M with the new muzzle break and improved trigger.


----------



## Arsalan

RAMPAGE said:


> I was wondering if the contestant rifles offer any significant improvements over the latest G3M with the new muzzle break and improved trigger.


They do actually, there is this fact that no matter what, G3M is a design based on G3 after decades of improvements, one wonders if this is just as good as you can get from a 1950s design. The new guns on other hand are all very new designs and will be able to serve us for decades to come. G3 and its variants might have just reached there full potential already. Also there is the weight advantage, accuracy and less recoil that is to be considered. All in all it will be good if we opt to change the service rifle and start working on that now. As far as the information i was able to get so far, the process will be a dozen year or so long. There is this initial selection and then there is a stop before decision is made for future. If that same selected gun is to be continued with, that will take relatively lesser stoppage. However if at that point a decision is made to change it and select something other that will actually replace the gun for whole military then that will mean a much longer stop. IN short, it will take a lot of time to eventually see all our military equipped with a new modern rifle!

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## RAMPAGE

Finally!

@Zarvan ran out of FN Scar pictures to spam this thread with.


----------



## Zarvan

RAMPAGE said:


> Finally!
> 
> @Zarvan ran out of FN Scar pictures to spam this thread with.















@RAMPAGE Specially for you

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## RAMPAGE

Zarvan said:


> View attachment 314454
> 
> View attachment 314455
> 
> View attachment 314456
> 
> @RAMPAGE Specially for you

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## Lone Ranger

Zarvan said:


> View attachment 314454
> 
> View attachment 314455
> 
> View attachment 314456
> 
> @RAMPAGE Specially for you





RAMPAGE said:


>


 Lol

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## Zarvan

I am hoping to hear about the results soon.

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## PAR 5

ROUND 2 - All rifles are currently being tested by the PN Marines and NSSG

ROUND 3 - All rifles to be tested by the PAF SSW

FINAL DECISION - Somewhere in March 2017


----------



## 544_delta

PAR 5 said:


> ROUND 2 - All rifles are currently being tested by the PN Marines and NSSG
> 
> ROUND 3 - All rifles to be tested by the PAF SSW
> 
> FINAL DECISION - Somewhere in March 2017


and you know this how? shouldn't regular infantry test these rifles?


----------



## PAR 5

544_delta said:


> and you know this how? shouldn't regular infantry test these rifles?



These trials have been turned into TRI-SERVICES event. COAS wants input from sister services as well. If, Marines and NSSG and SSW approve the rifle, it stands approved for a regular grunt in Navy and Airforce as well.

I know this first hand and through my contacts within the military establishment.


----------



## Zarvan

PAR 5 said:


> These trials have been turned into TRI-SERVICES event. COAS wants input from sister services as well. If, Marines and NSSG and SSW approve the rifle, it stands approved for a regular grunt in Navy and Airforce as well.
> 
> I know this first hand and through my contacts within the military establishment.


It was going to happen and it was known from day one that all forces would test these Guns and give their output and than Gun would be decided. What you need to ask is whether HK-417 has also entered trials or not ? @PAR 5


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## SurvivoR

That's great news... So is it safe to assume that the army has selected the SCAR?


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## 544_delta

Zarvan said:


> It was going to happen and it was known from day one that all forces would test these Guns and give their output and than Gun would be decided. What you need to ask is whether HK-417 has also entered trials or not ? @PAR 5


did you get the permission to share that pic you mentioned ?


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## Zarvan

544_delta said:


> did you get the permission to share that pic you mentioned ?


Check previous pages already shared

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## 544_delta

Zarvan said:


> View attachment 314454
> 
> View attachment 314455
> 
> View attachment 314456


So lets say army chooses to go with FN SCAR and gets it with ToT, would you consider it a possibility that there could be a civilian variant of the gun made available by POF someday?


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## Zarvan

544_delta said:


> So lets say army chooses to go with FN SCAR and gets it with ToT, would you consider it a possibility that there could be a civilian variant of the gun made available by POF someday?


I want military version no civilian version. Same Military version should be available to civilians.


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## 544_delta

Zarvan said:


> I want military version no civilian version. Same Military version should be available to civilians.


im all for it bro but i dont think our gun laws permit a full auto version for civilians....personally i'd be glad to lay hands on even a civilian version (i hear there are mods and kits that can bring a civilian version to its full military glory  )


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## Zarvan

544_delta said:


> im all for it bro but i dont think our gun laws permit a full auto version for civilians....personally i'd be glad to lay hands on even a civilian version (i hear there are mods and kits that can bring a civilian version to its full military glory  )


Screw Gun laws no matter what if SCAR is selected I want it and full Military version

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## farhan_9909

AK 12

Wondering why they haven't considered it for trials

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## Zarvan

farhan_9909 said:


> AK 12
> 
> Wondering why they haven't considered it for trials


Well I think caliber is the problem it doesn't have 7.62 X 39 or 7.62 X 51. Although if we are looking to go for two Guns, one to replace G3 and one to replace Type 56 than along with FN SCAR I would prefer this over AK-103. AK-103 is already 25 year old weapon. @balixd @Arsalan


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## farhan_9909

Zarvan said:


> Well I think caliber is the problem it doesn't have 7.62 X 39 or 7.62 X 51. Although if we are looking to go for two Guns, one to replace G3 and one to replace Type 56 than along with FN SCAR I would prefer this over AK-103. AK-103 is already 25 year old weapon. @balixd @Arsalan



Ak 12 is lighter than SCAR H and can replace both G3 and Type 56 and we can afford it aswell.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AK-12

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## Zarvan

farhan_9909 said:


> Ak 12 is lighter than SCAR H and can replace both G3 and Type 56 and we can afford it aswell.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AK-12


AK-12 is good Gun but no match to SCAR in performance in every aspect.


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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> Well I think caliber is the problem it doesn't have 7.62 X 39 or 7.62 X 51. Although if we are looking to go for two Guns, one to replace G3 and one to replace Type 56 than along with FN SCAR I would prefer this over AK-103. AK-103 is already 25 year old weapon. @balixd @Arsalan


It do have 7.62 x 39mm and should have been considered in the first place if it was made available by the Russians.

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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> It do have 7.62 x 39mm and should have been considered in the first place if it was made available by the Russians.


Well than if we are going for two Guns one to replace G3 and one to replace Type 56 than along with SCAR we should opt for this Gun instead of 25 year old AK-103


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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> Well than if we are going for two Guns one to replace G3 and one to replace Type 56 than along with SCAR we should opt for this Gun instead of 25 year old AK-103


The "big purchase" decision will be made only in some years. The current trails will just form the base of what you may call the "first batch". What comes after that will be decided in few years so nothing can be said for sure.



> Well than if we are going.......


@WAJsal


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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> The "big purchase" decision will be made only in some years. The current trails will just form the base of what you may call the "first batch". What comes after that will be decided in few years so nothing can be said for sure.
> 
> 
> @WAJsal


Sir we are going for full scale production no small change. We are massively upgrading POF WAH and which ever Gun selected will be mass produced at WAH


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## RAMPAGE

Arsalan said:


> It do have 7.62 x 39mm and should have been considered in the first place if it was made available by the Russians.


Those are 545s.


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## Sulman Badshah

farhan_9909 said:


> Ak 12 is lighter than SCAR H and can replace both G3 and Type 56 and we can afford it aswell.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AK-12


AK12 (7.62x51 mm variant haven't been developed yet) ... It is good choice for 7.62x39mm caliber

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## Basel

Zarvan said:


> Many pages on Facebook related to Army are breaking news that FN SCAR has been approved and selected for Armed Forces. @Arsalan @Quwa @Wolfhound @Tipu7



Will SCAR or any new gun selected will be good like G-3 when it comes to CQB/ Hand to hand combat in battlefield? Its very important and Kargil proves G-3 is good in it.


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## Zarvan

Basel said:


> Will SCAR or any new gun selected will be good like G-3 when it comes to CQB/ Hand to hand combat in battlefield? Its very important and Kargil proves G-3 is good in it.


G3 sucks in CQB. It's Type 56 and now M4 also which is used by Pakistani infantry and special forces for close combat missions.



Sulman Badshah said:


> AK12 (7.62x51 mm variant haven't been developed yet) ... It is good choice for 7.62x39mm caliber


That is what we are suggesting. Replacing Type 56 with AK-12 not AK-103. And SCAR replacing G3.


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## Kompromat

Spoke the FN SCAR vendor participating in the trials, he said ARX-200 is still a prototype and has not been proven in battlefield conditions.

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## Zarvan

Horus said:


> Spoke the FN SCAR vendor participating in the trials, he said ARX-200 is still a prototype and has not been proven in battlefield conditions.


Sir G please talk to some senior Army officers and ask them about trials and when would be results announced @Horus


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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> Sir we are going for full scale production no small change. We are massively upgrading POF WAH and which ever Gun selected will be mass produced at WAH



It won’t be.  
NOT FROM GET GO! 

A few thousand are to be produced initially and that will give more than enough guns for field trails and deployment. The production and induction process will take a few years surely and the guns will be evaluated, AGAIN, at unit level. Tested and tried in battlefield. A decision to continue with production of same gun or select a new one will only be made AFTER those years. You may not get such details in news for now or may ever but that is what the plan is. Also the concept of an indigenous gun have some supporters in the upper echelons and a side story is that may be after these initial 12-15k guns are produced at POF and the technology is acquired we may go for a Pakistani design, heavily based on the selected gun that we select (and have produced in few thousands) but with some tweaks based on lessons learned from all the real action and deployment at units level. This however is just an idea for now with the concerned authorities and the decision will be made one the initial batch is produced and inducted. I hope you can understand why this idea may not be made public officially (we won’t like to piss off the supplier who’s gun we are going to select).

As for “massively upgrading POF Wah” it is not that massive and it is not “upgrading” yet. It is a plan and a committed and will happen in near future at a considerable scale. Not confuse it with something that is “happening right now” and on a “massive scale”.

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## Basel

Zarvan said:


> G3 sucks in CQB. It's Type 56 and now M4 also which is used by Pakistani infantry and special forces for close combat missions.
> 
> 
> That is what we are suggesting. Replacing Type 56 with AK-12 not AK-103. And SCAR replacing G3.



you didn't get my point, I m talking about hand to hand combat which usually happens in Kashmir conflicts while attacking or defending posts.


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## Zarvan

Basel said:


> you didn't get my point, I m talking about hand to hand combat which usually happens in Kashmir conflicts while attacking or defending posts.


In Kashmir we mostly use TYPE 56 but FN SCAR is good in hand to hand combat


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## Bratva

Arsalan said:


> It won’t be.
> NOT FROM GET GO!
> 
> A few thousand are to be produced initially and that will give more than enough guns for field trails and deployment. The production and induction process will take a few years surely and the guns will be evaluated, AGAIN, at unit level. Tested and tried in battlefield. A decision to continue with production of same gun or select a new one will only be made AFTER those years. You may not get such details in news for now or may ever but that is what the plan is. Also the concept of an indigenous gun have some supporters in the upper echelons and a side story is that may be after these initial 12-15k guns are produced at POF and the technology is acquired we may go for a Pakistani design, heavily based on the selected gun that we select (and have produced in few thousands) but with some tweaks based on lessons learned from all the real action and deployment at units level. This however is just an idea for now with the concerned authorities and the decision will be made one the initial batch is produced and inducted. I hope you can understand why this idea may not be made public officially (we won’t like to piss off the supplier who’s gun we are going to select).
> 
> As for “massively upgrading POF Wah” it is not that massive and it is not “upgrading” yet. It is a plan and a committed and will happen in near future at a considerable scale. Not confuse it with something that is “happening right now” and on a “massive scale”.




https://defence.pk/threads/army-hunts-for-lethal-assault-rifle-junks-drdos-excalibur.437634/page-2

Now India is also going for a new service rifles. What are the chances they will try to scuttle the efforts of Pakistan procuring rifles ?

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## Quwa

Bratva said:


> https://defence.pk/threads/army-hunts-for-lethal-assault-rifle-junks-drdos-excalibur.437634/page-2
> 
> Now India is also going for a new service rifles. What are the chances they will try to scuttle the efforts of Pakistan procuring rifles ?


With the exception of taking the riskiest approach possible by committing to a million rifles upfront and paying $2 billion, there isn't much they can add to the bottom line compared to Pakistan. Pakistan may not be able to buy much, and it may be lacking in options, but the realm of small arms isn't anywhere near as dire as big ticket items. In the worst case scenario, the Pakistan Army can just explain the entire acquisition roadmap (detailed by @Arsalan) to the vendors, giving them incentive of a $2 billion procurement of our own. But I don't think it'll come to that, too many competitors and there will only be 1 or 2 winners (for either contract), very little point in burning bridges before landing an inked contract.

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## Arsalan

Bratva said:


> https://defence.pk/threads/army-hunts-for-lethal-assault-rifle-junks-drdos-excalibur.437634/page-2
> 
> Now India is also going for a new service rifles. What are the chances they will try to scuttle the efforts of Pakistan procuring rifles ?


Dont think so. It is not that big ticket item and there are so many players involved. Plus we too are will be offering a more then decent contract. Also i think they will know that any such move will do more harm to them then it will do to us, i mean, they will be making a panic decision while we will be moving to an evaluated system that we have tried and tested in the trails. I mean to say that we have already studied and evaluated the alternatives in depth.

Lolz Just saw that @Quwa have already stated almost the same things.  
Thanks sir!

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## Basel

Zarvan said:


> In Kashmir we mostly use TYPE 56 but FN SCAR is good in hand to hand combat
> View attachment 315418



Dear G-3 and Type-56 both are extensively used,I have seen and discussed it with soldiers deployed on frontlines during Kargil war and they say G-3 is feared by enemy because our soldiers use it very effectively with very good accuracy.

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## Sulman Badshah

Basel said:


> G-3 is feared by enemy because our soldiers use it very effectively with very good accuracy.


agree G-3 is a kill machine ... It can penetrate kevlar even at 500-600 meter range

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## Zarvan

Sulman Badshah said:


> agree G-3 is a kill machine ... It can penetrate kevlar even at 500-600 meter range


Is checking Gun against Bullet Proof Jackets also part of trials


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## Sulman Badshah

Zarvan said:


> Is checking Gun against Bullet Proof Jackets also part of trials


Nothing critical .. They usually put 4mm plate at a distance to check the penetration capability

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## LegitimateIdiot

Zarvan said:


> Well I think caliber is the problem it doesn't have 7.62 X 39 or 7.62 X 51. Although if we are looking to go for two Guns, one to replace G3 and one to replace Type 56 than along with FN SCAR I would prefer this over AK-103. AK-103 is already 25 year old weapon. @balixd @Arsalan


this does come in 7.62 x 39 and 7.63 x 52


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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> Is checking Gun against Bullet Proof Jackets also part of trials


Surely the penetration power is evaluated, it is one key aspect.

It was actually quite surprising coming from you since you are the one sharing what you call "inside information" that confirms the SCAR is leading the trails and do so as a universal truth. How come you not aware of actually "what" trails they are part of and know what is in the lead. 

anyway, yes penetration is evaluated by shooting at a metal plate. Something like this:





(Shared a few pages back on this very thread by @Sulman Badshah

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## Zarvan

Polish Special Forces with FN SCAR


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## Zarvan




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## Wolfhound

Zarvan said:


> Well I think caliber is the problem it doesn't have 7.62 X 39 or 7.62 X 51. Although if we are looking to go for two Guns, one to replace G3 and one to replace Type 56 than along with FN SCAR I would prefer this over AK-103. AK-103 is already 25 year old weapon. @balixd @Arsalan


In my opinion we shouldn't even be testing the Ak-103 series but instead should be testing the Ak-107 series which is way better and relatively more modernized with its counter balance recoil system. This video gives a pretty good overall comparison of the two series. IMO the Ak-107 is the only real competition of the FN Scar along with the HK-417.









Zarvan said:


> Is checking Gun against Bullet Proof Jackets also part of trials


They might use doing ballistics gel testing, but its unlikely.

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## fitpOsitive

Wolfhound said:


> In my opinion we shouldn't even be testing the Ak-103 series but instead should be testing the Ak-107 series which is way better and relatively more modernized with its counter balance recoil system. This video gives a pretty good overall comparison of the two series. IMO the Ak-107 is the only real competition of the FN Scar along with the HK-417.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They might use doing ballistics gel testing, but its unlikely.


Outstanding share . Well I second this opinion. AKs are good. But as we know military guys have many parameters running in parallel in evaluation phase, so....cant say any thing.

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## Zarvan

@balixd Sir do you have any latest information ?


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## Sulman Badshah

Wolfhound said:


> In my opinion we shouldn't even be testing the Ak-103 series but instead should be testing the Ak-107 series which is way better and relatively more modernized with its counter balance recoil system. This video gives a pretty good overall comparison of the two series. IMO the Ak-107 is the only real competition of the FN Scar along with the HK-417.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They might use doing ballistics gel testing, but its unlikely.


We don't use this caliber in our inventory ..

it is 5.45x39 mm

we are looking to replace gun for
7.62x51mm and 7.62x39mm caliber


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## proka89

Arsalan said:


> It was actually quite surprising coming from you since you are the one sharing what you call "inside information" that confirms the SCAR is leading the trails and do so as a universal truth. How come you not aware of actually "what" trails they are part of and know what is in the lead.



According to guy that works in Zastava (i already mentioned him on this topic and shared some info that he provided on Serbian forum) in total score SCAR is behind Zastava.

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## Path-Finder

proka89 said:


> According to guy that works in Zastava (i already mentioned him on this topic and shared some info that he provided on Serbian forum) in total score SCAR is behind Zastava.


 you have given someone a Stroke @Zarvan

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## farhan_9909

proka89 said:


> According to guy that works in Zastava (i already mentioned him on this topic and shared some info that he provided on Serbian forum) in total score SCAR is behind Zastava.



Zastava and CZ Bren both are the best option because the come from the manufacture that in long run can help POF and will also provide full support in local production.

I really doubt that army will choose SCAR or ARX 200 as both of them are very expensive options


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## thrilainmanila

i hope its the scar but think it will be an AK derivative there simply isn't the money for anything better then the AK IMHO


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> you have given someone a Stroke @Zarvan


Zastasva is not even close to beat FN SCAR. @balixd Sir please any latest news ??


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Zastasva is not even close to beat FN SCAR. @balixd Sir please any latest news ??


 Good Keep the faith.


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Good Keep the faith.


I have been hearing about FN SCAR and AK-103 in final round. Although if these two Guns are in final round than I think we are going for both. One will replace G3 and other will replace Type 56.


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## That Guy

thrilainmanila said:


> i hope its the scar but think it will be an AK derivative there simply isn't the money for anything better then the AK IMHO


rifles aren't like fighters or tanks, you can buy them in smaller batches and in longer terms.

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## Thorough Pro

LOL you just gave a 220 volt jolt to Zarvan



proka89 said:


> According to guy that works in Zastava (i already mentioned him on this topic and shared some info that he provided on Serbian forum) in total score SCAR is behind Zastava.

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## Zarvan

Thorough Pro said:


> LOL you just gave a 220 volt jolt to Zarvan


ZASTAVA is no where close what I am hearing is AK-103 and FN SCAR in final round. But as both are different callibers some questions are raised.


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## proka89

I can't predict which rifle will win and be chosen in the end. I am just sharing info i heard from a guy that i know for sure is working in Zastava. There is always a chance that what he told us on Serbian forum is not true (but i can't really see what would that bring him). So it's up to you all to believe it or not. Zastava is competing only in 7.62x51 with M77 rifle.

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## Wolfhound

Sulman Badshah said:


> We don't use this caliber in our inventory ..
> 
> it is 5.45x39 mm
> 
> we are looking to replace gun for
> 7.62x51mm and 7.62x39mm caliber


Bhai jan i said series of rifles, The AK-109 comes in 7.62x39mm and fits the description perfectly.


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## Zarvan

proka89 said:


> I can't predict which rifle will win and be chosen in the end. I am just sharing info i heard from a guy that i know for sure is working in Zastava. There is always a chance that what he told us on Serbian forum is not true (but i can't really see what would that bring him). So it's up to you all to believe it or not. Zastava is competing only in 7.62x51 with M77 rifle.


Don't trust company guys. Every guy from various companies are claiming their Gun is leading the trials. But I am strictly against ZASTAVA and AK-103.


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Don't trust company guys. Every guy from various companies are claiming their Gun is leading the trials. But I am strictly against ZASTAVA and AK-103.


Zarvan Please don't become a cheer leader for SCAR you have nothing solid to back up your claim.

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Zarvan Please don't become a cheer leader for SCAR you have nothing solid to back up your claim.


Everyone who researches on Gun knows Gun back my claim. SCAR without doubt is the best Battle Rifle. From range to accuracy to less recoil in every aspect SCAR is best.


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Everyone who researches on Gun knows Gun back my claim. SCAR without doubt is the best Battle Rifle. From range to accuracy to less recoil in every aspect SCAR is best.


 Honestly FN should pay you for promoting their product so aggressively. This much devotion to rifle ought to be better spent else where.


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## Quwa

Some of us will pay good money to see @Zarvan angrily flip a table in response to the Army choosing Zastava over the SCAR.

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## Path-Finder

Quwa said:


> Some of us will pay good money to see @Zarvan angrily flip a table in response to the Army choosing Zastava over the SCAR.


 I didn't anticipate this from a defense professional like you but it will be price less to see.


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## Gufi

Quwa said:


> Some of us will pay good money to see @Zarvan angrily flip a table in response to the Army choosing Zastava over the SCAR.


A lil off the topic, or actually quite a bit off the topic, but any movement in the area of snipers.
Thinking sniper guns like the one TrackingPoint have developed could really change the ability of our armed forces to take on terrorist threats with less experienced shooters doing the job saving time and reducing the casualty count.... The time taken for our SSG to arrive or even specialised army units really increases the time the terrorists have to operate. 
Every city having a few snipers trained with these type of systems could really alter the situation. And we could probably get the guns under the coalition fund which will go to waste otherwise I guess.


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## That Guy

farhan_9909 said:


> Zastava and CZ Bren both are the best option because the come from the manufacture that in long run can help POF and will also provide full support in local production.
> 
> I really doubt that army will choose SCAR or ARX 200 as both of them are very expensive options


Really? I feel the opposite (about the choosing part). I feel that the Army may buy the SCAR or the ARX-200, rather than the Zastava or Bren, because they want another rifle that will last them roughly the same amount of time that the G-3 has.

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## RAMPAGE

That Guy said:


> Really? I feel the opposite (about the choosing part). I feel that the Army may buy the SCAR or the ARX-200, rather than the Zastava or Bren, because they want another rifle that will last them roughly the same amount of time that the G-3 has.


Bren is a nice, modern Multi caliber design. It's up there with SCAR and ARX-200 if the reviews are to be believed.

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## Quwa

That Guy said:


> Really? I feel the opposite (about the choosing part). I feel that the Army may buy the SCAR or the ARX-200, rather than the Zastava or Bren, because they want another rifle that will last them roughly the same amount of time that the G-3 has.


The BREN has a relatively rapid iteration cycle. If factored in with it being cheaper (than SCAR or ARX), then in version 3 or version 4 the BREN could end up being the most balanced (cost and performance) option. That said, a Pakistan Army order would be a major boon for Beretta considering the ARX-200 is a new design, the Army may be able to exact some concessions from them in pricing and/or commercial offsets (perpetually plugging in POF into the ARX's global supply chain would be a huge plus). For FN Herstal, a win in Pakistan and an opportunity to utilize POF as a means to reduce component costs would help SCAR attain a lead in the market.

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## Path-Finder

Quwa said:


> The BREN has a relatively rapid iteration cycle. If factored in with it being cheaper (than SCAR or ARX), then in version 3 or version 4 the BREN could end up being the most balanced (cost and performance) option. That said, a Pakistan Army order would be a major boon for Beretta considering the ARX-200 is a new design, the Army may be able to exact some concessions from them in pricing and/or commercial offsets (perpetually plugging in POF into the ARX's global supply chain would be a huge plus). For FN Herstal, a win in Pakistan and an opportunity to utilize POF as a means to reduce component costs would help SCAR attain a lead in the market.


@Zarvan now this is called a balanced view and not cheer leading for SCAR!

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## Irfan Baloch

Zarvan said:


> Don't trust company guys. Every guy from various companies are claiming their Gun is leading the trials. But I am strictly against ZASTAVA and AK-103.


why dislike for these two?

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## Zarvan

Irfan Baloch said:


> why dislike for these two?


They are already quite old designs with lot of recoils and limitation to further upgradtion. Selecting any of the means within 15 to 20 years we would be looking for new Gun once again. They are also not that accurate


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## Irfan Baloch

Zarvan said:


> They are already quite old designs with lot of recoils and limitation to further upgradtion. Selecting any of the means within 15 to 20 years we would be looking for new Gun once again. They are also not that accurate


battlefield 4 showcases some if not all of the riles we have discussed and will show almost as accurately what we are talking about in terms of looks and its shooting

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## Omega007

Irfan Baloch said:


> battlefield 4 showcases some if not all of the riles we have discussed and will show almost as accurately what we are talking about in terms of looks and its shooting



Ahhh.............FINALLY, another Battlefield fan!!Way to go sir ji!!


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## Arsalan

proka89 said:


> According to guy that works in Zastava (i already mentioned him on this topic and shared some info that he provided on Serbian forum) in total score SCAR is behind Zastava.


The final decision will be made based on a number of parameters and the performance is just one of them. I am not sure if was talking about quality/performance alone (seem unlikely as SCAR is an excellent gun and not sure how it could be left behind any on performance bases) of was he talking about the whole induction process and the decision making (again unlikely as a guy working in the production may not be aware of any development on this front). May be you can talk to him again. 
OR
The best thing will be to just wait and see.



That Guy said:


> rifles aren't like fighters or tanks, you can buy them in smaller batches and in longer terms.


Now who can make them believe this? and HOW??? 
Yehi tu masla ha bahi!!
Anyway,, this is what we will be doing. The selection process will initially result in induction of a batch of guns which will be distributed among active units. The second decision will be to go for that same gun for whole army or not and it will be made only after some time. We may see some changes at that stage and as pointed out earlier, there are quite a few supporters of an indigenous gun design in positions that matter. Wont be surprised is we see something changing even after the whole current trails and selection process is done with and a batch of guns is produced. This is something both being talked about much right now but it is there on the table and there are people who are in favor of such a move.



Zarvan said:


> Don't trust company guys. Every guy from various companies are claiming their Gun is leading the trials. But I am strictly against ZASTAVA and AK-103.


Yeah and you being against is surely more important then what those companies are saying. Please pardon the ignorance of the masses here. They should know better then to question your information (oh no,, i mean, question your wishes)



proka89 said:


> I can't predict which rifle will win and be chosen in the end. I am just sharing info i heard from a guy that i know for sure is working in Zastava. There is always a chance that what he told us on Serbian forum is not true (but i can't really see what would that bring him). So it's up to you all to believe it or not. Zastava is competing only in 7.62x51 with M77 rifle.


Bro,, NO ONE can predict, not matter how much they make it look like that but you must not confuse wishful thinking with "predictions". Thank you for sharing the info you had with us.



Zarvan said:


> Everyone who researches on Gun knows Gun back my claim.* SCAR without doubt is the best Battle Rifle*. From range to accuracy to less recoil in every aspect SCAR is best.


Its an assault rifle sir.



Path-Finder said:


> Honestly FN should pay you for promoting their product so aggressively. This much devotion to rifle ought to be better spent else where.


Lets keep it to this one thread please!



Gufi said:


> A lil off the topic, or actually quite a bit off the topic, but any movement in the area of snipers.
> Thinking sniper guns like the one TrackingPoint have developed could really change the ability of our armed forces to take on terrorist threats with less experienced shooters doing the job saving time and reducing the casualty count.... The time taken for our SSG to arrive or even specialised army units really increases the time the terrorists have to operate.
> Every city having a few snipers trained with these type of systems could really alter the situation. And we could probably get the guns under the coalition fund which will go to waste otherwise I guess.


We don't need them in hundreds of hundreds of thousands so the idea usually is to buy some of the shelves. Also not real standardization aimed for that field (like a same gun for whole army) so we just keep inducting small batches of different guns. Since it is not so significant we usually don't see them and since they guys are snipers,, it is difficult to spot them in pics to 
The idea you shared regrading less trained shooters and guns which can assist them to shoot accurately is something the we have not traditionally followed. Normally, we do not act like this. Now if this is right or wrong is a separate debate.



That Guy said:


> Really? I feel the opposite (about the choosing part). I feel that the Army may buy the SCAR or the ARX-200, rather than the Zastava or Bren, because they want another rifle that will last them roughly the same amount of time that the G-3 has.



CZ Bern and Zastava can!
Especially CZ Bern. It is right up there.
Also as mentioned previously, performance is just one of the parameters in a decisions so big.

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## Gufi

Arsalan said:


> The idea you shared regrading less trained shooters and guns which can assist them to shoot accurately is something the we have not traditionally followed. Normally, we do not act like this. Now if this is right or wrong is a separate debate


Time is equal to life saved. Please go through the details of the system mentioned... tht is why i wanted quwa to look into t but it seemstoo hard to get his attention atm

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## The Sandman

Irfan Baloch said:


> battlefield 4 showcases some if not all of the riles we have discussed and will show almost as accurately what we are talking about in terms of looks and its shooting


Yeee so you play BF?


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## Arsalan

Gufi said:


> Time is equal to life saved. Please go through the details of the system mentioned... tht is why i wanted quwa to look into t but it seemstoo hard to get his attention atm


It is bro and I do not disagree with what good it may bring or what you said. Just pointing out how things actually are being handled at the moment. Yours was a suggestion (and i agree with it) mine was an overview of the current situation and the "trend"

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## Zarvan

@balixd Sir will you bother to share latest information on Gun trials @kaonalpha Sir you can also shed some light on what's going on ?


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## F.O.X

I have a Bad news for you @Zarvan


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## Zarvan

F.O.X said:


> I have a Bad news for you @Zarvan


Is AK-103 the one which got selected ? Is this the bad news ? @F.O.X @Arsalan @Tipu7 @Sulman Badshah


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## F.O.X

Zarvan said:


> Is AK-103 the one which got selected ? Is this the bad news ? @F.O.X @Arsalan @Tipu7 @Sulman Badshah


Cant say anything for now... but dosent look good for you..


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## proka89

Arsalan said:


> The final decision will be made based on a number of parameters and the performance is just one of them. I am not sure if was talking about quality/performance alone (seem unlikely as SCAR is an excellent gun and not sure how it could be left behind any on performance bases) of was he talking about the whole induction process and the decision making (again unlikely as a guy working in the production may not be aware of any development on this front). May be you can talk to him again.
> OR
> The best thing will be to just wait and see.



He also told us that CZ Bren didn't do great in 7.62x51, they fell off, but later returned with modified gun. Also new players from US, Turkey and Swiss entered the game. According to him in accuracy tests M77 was shoulder to shoulder with SCAR and Bereta. There is also no need to mention that Zastava rifles based on AK are well made and reliable. Area in which Zastava M77 certainly falls behind competition is rifle ergonomics, but on the other hand it's 700$ rifle, compared for example with 2000$+ when we talk about SCAR.

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## Zarvan

F.O.X said:


> Cant say anything for now... but dosent look good for you..


Can you at least tell which Guns are in final round ?


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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> Is AK-103 the one which got selected ? Is this the bad news ? @F.O.X @Arsalan @Tipu7 @Sulman Badshah


I wont worry about that too much!
The possibility to change the decision is there from what i have learned about the induction approach. The selection being made right now is *not confirmed for whole army* but will be a most likely candidate for sure. The final decision will be made once a batch is produced and inducted. After that we will decide either to keep with the same gun and equip all units or to change to a new one. 

A very sensible and mature approach i would say. Shows how real military procurement must be done to the fanboys.

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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> I wont worry about that too much!
> The possibility to change the decision is there from what i have learned about the induction approach. The selection being made right now is *not confirmed for whole army* but will be a most likely candidate for sure. The final decision will be made once a batch is produced and inducted. After that we will decide either to keep with the same gun and equip all units or to change to a new one.
> 
> A very sensible and mature approach i would say. Shows how real military procurement must be done to the fanboys.


You mean inducting with one brigade test Gun and if not like that than again entire process will be repeated


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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> You mean inducting with one brigade test Gun and if not like that than again entire process will be repeated


I mean inducting in batches. Getting a few thousand and distributing them. If the results and performance comes back satisfactory continue with production or else opt for some new option based on all this current learning experience. The real though processing behind such an approach is the love for an indigenous systems that can be found in hearts of people, some of them in position of some influence. This is the best way to pursue that option if we want/need and choose to.

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## Arsalan



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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


>


It looks like some AR version ?


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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> It looks like some AR version ?


SIG716


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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> SIG716


Is it in trials ?


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## RAMPAGE

Would love to see CZ Bren configured for 7.62 NATO. 

@balixd


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## Army research

Mate check wiki of Pakistan army military equipment apparently ak-103 is going to replace g3 ​


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## Zarvan

Army research said:


> Mate check wiki of Pakistan army military equipment apparently ak-103 is going to replace g3 ​


Wiki has to say samething about SCAR


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## Amaa'n

Arsalan said:


> SIG716


Are you sure it is not some other variant but different oem?? What i have heard it is PWS



RAMPAGE said:


> Would love to see CZ Bren configured for 7.62 NATO.
> 
> @balixd


Fauj ki baatein fauj hi janay.....everyday they wake up with different strategy in their head and discard the one from yesterday while they take their morning dump

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## RAMPAGE

balixd said:


> Fauj ki baatein fauj hi janay.....everyday they wake up with different strategy in their head and discard the one from yesterday while they take their morning dump


Ab kia hua?


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## Tipu7

balixd said:


> Are you sure it is not some other variant but different oem?? What i have heard it is PWS
> 
> 
> Fauj ki baatein fauj hi janay.....everyday they wake up with different strategy in their head and discard the one from yesterday while they take their morning dump


So as per now, we have winner.....?
Aren't we looking for TWO guns in total? 
Type 56 & G3 cannot be replaced by ONE gun only ......
Looks like we have winner of Type56 replacement, and it's Ak103 which will be delivered in batches to be used in Tribal areas?


F.O.X said:


> Cant say anything for now... but dosent look good for you..





Arsalan said:


> SIG716

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## Zarvan

Tipu7 said:


> So as per now, we have winner.....?
> Aren't we looking for TWO guns in total?
> Type 56 & G3 cannot be replaced by ONE gun only ......
> Looks like we have winner of Type56 replacement, and it's Ak103 which will be delivered in batches to be used in Tribal areas?


That is exactly the most important question that whether we are looking for one Gun or two because you are right that one Gun can't replace both Type 56 and G3

I asked a friend to ask someone in Army and he is coming up with a name MP4 A2 I am telling him no such Gun exists but he is insisting. I am going to end up in mental hospital before final decision takes place @balixd


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## Tipu7

Zarvan said:


> I asked a friend to ask someone in Army and he is coming up with a name MP4 A2 I am telling him no such Gun exists but he is insisting. I am going to end up in mental hospital before final decision takes place @balixd


That "Sheikh" ?
Nope. Don't take it seriously ......

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## Irfan Baloch

The Sandman said:


> Yeee so you play BF?


no I dont. just borrowed the video to show at least some of the guns in discussion.



Omega007 said:


> Ahhh.............FINALLY, another Battlefield fan!!Way to go sir ji!!


just mentioned since many guns are in the up close video in this clip. I dont play FPS.. I am too old for them. bit of RPG and thats all

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## Omega007

Irfan Baloch said:


> just mentioned since many guns are in the up close video in this clip. I dont play FPS.. I am too old for them. bit of RPG and thats all



Oh come on!!You can't be that old!!


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## dr_jawwad71

I see SCAR mania in this forum. That's why people are not thinking straight. Even USA is hesitatnt adopting SCAR as main army rifle. It's a big decision requires a huge amount of money. SCAR isn't coming cheap niether berretta AXR. 
My vote is for MPT 76 or CZ Bren 806.


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## Army research

Any gun with 7.62,comparatively lower recoil and weight , range , no jamming issues and modular I.e barrels mags etc will work for our army that's all we need the scar mania I'd here because it is a futuristic gun and can serve our needs for decades making it a worthwhile upgrade USA is not adopting it because they already have comparatively good guns while our g3 is from the 60s thus scar would be a good upgrade think of it like this your using a car for 10 years and you need a replacement would you get another 5 year old or 8 year old car which you will have to change again or get a new car which is a bit more expensive but will last 10 more years so actually saves you money and will later sell for more too same here scar will work for decades and due to tot which Pakistan army has made sure of we will export it and earn more money too so don't think it's expensive it will pay us way more

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## Zarvan

Army research said:


> Any gun with 7.62,comparatively lower recoil and weight , range , no jamming issues and modular I.e barrels mags etc will work for our army that's all we need the scar mania I'd here because it is a futuristic gun and can serve our needs for decades making it a worthwhile upgrade USA is not adopting it because they already have comparatively good guns while our g3 is from the 60s thus scar would be a good upgrade think of it like this your using a car for 10 years and you need a replacement would you get another 5 year old or 8 year old car which you will have to change again or get a new car which is a bit more expensive but will last 10 more years so actually saves you money and will later sell for more too same here scar will work for decades and due to tot which Pakistan army has made sure of we will export it and earn more money too so don't think it's expensive it will pay us way more


Thanks for understanding what I am saying for months now. Selecting FN SCAR means we would use this for next 40 years but other Guns no chance


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## Quwa

Gufi said:


> A lil off the topic, or actually quite a bit off the topic, but any movement in the area of snipers.
> Thinking sniper guns like the one TrackingPoint have developed could really change the ability of our armed forces to take on terrorist threats with less experienced shooters doing the job saving time and reducing the casualty count.... The time taken for our SSG to arrive or even specialised army units really increases the time the terrorists have to operate.
> Every city having a few snipers trained with these type of systems could really alter the situation. And we could probably get the guns under the coalition fund which will go to waste otherwise I guess.


Can't say - I don't have any info on that front.


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## dr_jawwad71

Army research said:


> Any gun with 7.62,comparatively lower recoil and weight , range , no jamming issues and modular I.e barrels mags etc will work for our army that's all we need the scar mania I'd here because it is a futuristic gun and can serve our needs for decades making it a worthwhile upgrade USA is not adopting it because they already have comparatively good guns while our g3 is from the 60s thus scar would be a good upgrade think of it like this your using a car for 10 years and you need a replacement would you get another 5 year old or 8 year old car which you will have to change again or get a new car which is a bit more expensive but will last 10 more years so actually saves you money and will later sell for more too same here scar will work for decades and due to tot which Pakistan army has made sure of we will export it and earn more money too so don't think it's expensive it will pay us way more


You are right. This caliber requires low recoil, less jamming and lesser weight. And you are also right mentioning the reason behind why America is not inducing SCAR. The cost to benefit ratio is not worth of spending billions of dollar on change of rifle. It is because M16 evolved in the same period of time which G3 did not. We have tools, we have experience. We lack skills and technology. I think we should start improving our skills in necessary modification of the rifle. Also I don't think that SCAR will last for 40 years. World is changing and progressing at alarming pace. We should acquire the skills of developing weapon from an idea.Otherwise we have to face the same situation in 20 years.
Best regards


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## Arsalan

Army research said:


> Any gun with 7.62,comparatively lower recoil and weight , range , no jamming issues and modular I.e barrels mags etc will work for our army that's all we need the scar mania I'd here because it is a futuristic gun and can serve our needs for decades making it a worthwhile upgrade USA is not adopting it because they already have comparatively good guns while our g3 is from the 60s thus scar would be a good upgrade think of it like this your using a car for 10 years and you need a replacement would you get another 5 year old or 8 year old car which you will have to change again or get a new car which is a bit more expensive but will last 10 more years so actually saves you money and will later sell for more too same here scar will work for decades and due to tot which Pakistan army has made sure of we will export it and earn more money too so don't think it's expensive it will pay us way more


Guns wont evolve at that pace that will make, lets say CZ Bern, obsolete in 20 years time. The main thing we will need to keep pace with might the the sights and that is it. The basic concept remains the same and for that very reason we see that G3 even today is a potent gun.



Zarvan said:


> I asked a friend to ask someone in Army and he is coming up with a name MP4 A2 I am telling him no such Gun exists but he is insisting. I am going to end up in mental hospital before final decision takes place @balixd


Have you thought that he might be referring to M4A2? That extra "P" might be a type or may be a an indication of "*P*akistan" version/Made in Pakistan version. The gun surely fits the profile and we do use M4s already with SF using A1 variant. 



balixd said:


> Are you sure it is not some other variant but different oem?? What i have heard it is PWS



Just sharing a pic bro. 

Also not sure if there is an other variant of SIG716 by different manufacturer. What was that about? what were your referring to? sorry i missed the point. PWS? (those MKs sure look awesome )



Army research said:


> Mate check wiki of Pakistan army military equipment apparently ak-103 is going to replace g3 ​


Take it with a pinch of salt!! 
Fanboys do manage to access wikipedia and we know people even here who would even hack ISPR (if they can) to announce the AK103 or SCAR or another gun they "like" have been selected just to feel happy.

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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> Guns wont evolve at that pace that will make, lets say CZ Bern, obsolete in 20 years time. The main thing we will need to keep pace with might the the sights and that is it. The basic concept remains the same and for that very reason we see that G3 even today is a potent gun.
> 
> 
> Have you thought that he might be referring to M4A2? That extra "P" might be a type or may be a an indication of "*P*akistan" version/Made in Pakistan version. The gun surely fits the profile and we do use M4s already with SF using A1 variant.
> 
> 
> 
> Just sharing a pic bro.
> 
> Also not sure if there is an other variant of SIG716 by different manufacturer. What was that about? what were your referring to? sorry i missed the point. PWS? (those MKs sure look awesome )
> 
> 
> Take it with a pinch of salt!!
> Fanboys do manage to access wikipedia and we know people even here who would even hack ISPR (if they can) to announce the AK103 or SCAR or another gun they "like" have been selected just to feel happy.


M4A2 is 5.56 X 45 not 7.62


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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> M4A2 is 5.56 X 45 not 7.62


yeah but it do exist.  
Your friend is confusing something there. Dont worry a lot about that.

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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> yeah but it do exist.
> Your friend is confusing something there. Dont worry a lot about that.


Can you give details about 7.62 variant of M4


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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> Can you give details about 7.62 variant of M4


Sorry may be i confused you. I am not talking about a 7.62 variant but just the gun. Just saying that the gun M4A2 exists (you said that there is no such gun and i explained how "P" may have been added, remember?  ). Although bushmaster have developed a 7.62 variant along with a 6.8mm available in both A2 and A3.

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## Zarvan

*Beretta ARX-200 automatic rifle (Italy)*



Beretta ARX-200 automatic rifle






Beretta ARX-200 automatic rifle






Beretta ARX-200 automatic rifle with shoulder stock folded






Beretta ARX-200 DMR (Designated marksman rifle, semi-automatic)







*Caliber*

7.62x51 NATO

*Action*

Gas operated

*Length, mm*

730 / 890-1000

*Barrel length, mm*

408

*Weight, kg*

4.5

*Rate of fire, rounds/minute*

?

*Magazine capacity, rounds*

20



The Beretta ARX-200 automatic rifle was designed by famous Italian company Beretta on request from Italian army. This weapon is intended as a direct competitor to modern 7.62x51mm infantry / Special forces rifles such as FN SCAR-H, HK 417 or MKE MPT-76. The Beretta ARX-200 will complement 5.56mm ARX-160 assault rifles in service with Italian army, and will be offered for export. The 7.62x51mm Beretta ARX-200 rifle is externally similar to smaller 5.56mm ARX-160 rifle but is of different design. A dedicated DMR (Designated Marksman Rifle) version with longer barrel and semi-automatic only trigger will be offered as well.



The Beretta ARX-200 automatic rifle is a gas operated, selective fired infantry weapon. It uses short stroke gas piston with manual gas regulator. Rotary bolt locks into the breech of the barrel, permitting for polymer receiver with metallic reinforcement inserts. Fired cartridge cases are ejected to the right side. The barrel could be removed for replacement or maintenance, but this procedure involves disassembly of the gun and use of special tools. The ARX-200 rifle is equipped with side-folding, adjustable polymer stocks, integrated Picatinny rail at the top of the receiver, and modular KeyMod forend. Ammunition is fed from detachable 20-round magazines made from polymer.

http://world.guns.ru/assault/it/arx-200-e.html

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## farhan_9909

which one of them is the most and least expensive?


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## Gufi

Quwa said:


> Can't say - I don't have any info on that front.


Please research it and write an article on ur site.... it is an ignored field having snipers which are well trained everywhere is difficult but good rifles which tell u when to shoot through detailed algorithms can reduce the expertise needed and improved reaction time can save lives..... as always your avid reader
Gufi

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## Zarvan

farhan_9909 said:


> which one of them is the most and least expensive?


The Guns which are being tested among them SCAR is the most expensive and Zastava and AK - 103 are cheapest


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## dr_jawwad71

Berretta AXR is the most modular weapon.you can change different length barrels and change the caliber by changing lower receiver, magazine and barrel with surprising ease.


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## Amaa'n

Arsalan said:


> Also not sure if there is an other variant of SIG716 by different manufacturer. What was that about? what were your referring to? sorry i missed the point. PWS? (those MKs sure look awesome )


PWS is a weapon manufacturer in US - PWS = Primary Weapon Systems, there weapon is based on AR platform

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## Arsalan

balixd said:


> PWS is a weapon manufacturer in US - PWS = Primary Weapon Systems, there weapon is based on AR platform


.
Oh hoo that i know and that is why i mentioned there MK series in my post. I thought you were talking about some "different variant" of Sig716 and that what got my attention.  Confusions all around.


balixd said:


> Are you sure it is not *some other variant but different oem??* What i have heard it is PWS


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## Zarvan




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## RAMPAGE

@Zarvan

Post the pictures and videos of this rifle.

http://www.defensereview.com/drd-ta...tic-rifle-csr-and-compact-semi-automatic-sni/

Surprised that Magpul/Bushmaster hasn't sent the 7.62 NATO ACR.






Paratus Rifle from DRD Tactical






OEMs for both rifles are different

MSRP is $6000 for Paratus Rifle. Not exactly an assault rifle.
_Paratus® Gen-2 is a patented quick take down Semi-Automatic Rifle chambered in 7.62 Nato. *The rifle can be assembled in less than 60 seconds without the use of any tools.* It was originally developed for the Clandestine Break Down Sniper Rifle (CSR) project listed by Joint and Special Operations Program. *It is the most compact auto loading rifle in the world*, with features like folding Magpul adjustable stock. The patented recoil system eliminates standard buffer tube/recoil system which allows the rifle to be fired with the stock folded._

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## MilSpec

Irfan Baloch said:


> why dislike for these two?


Best option would be the MPT or the 417, just for the fact that SCAR and ARX both have polymer receivers. Why risk cracking at the buffertube

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## Zarvan

RAMPAGE said:


> @Zarvan
> 
> Post the pictures and videos of this rifle.
> 
> http://www.defensereview.com/drd-ta...tic-rifle-csr-and-compact-semi-automatic-sni/
> 
> Surprised that Magpul/Bushmaster hasn't sent the 7.62 NATO ACR.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Paratus Rifle from DRD Tactical
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OEMs for both rifles are different
> 
> MSRP is $6000 for Paratus Rifle. Not exactly an assault rifle.
> _Paratus® Gen-2 is a patented quick take down Semi-Automatic Rifle chambered in 7.62 Nato. *The rifle can be assembled in less than 60 seconds without the use of any tools.* It was originally developed for the Clandestine Break Down Sniper Rifle (CSR) project listed by Joint and Special Operations Program. *It is the most compact auto loading rifle in the world*, with features like folding Magpul adjustable stock. The patented recoil system eliminates standard buffer tube/recoil system which allows the rifle to be fired with the stock folded._



*MAGPUL Masada / Bushmaster ACR - Adaptive Combat Rifle (USA)*


_


MAGPUL Masada / BushmasterACR - Adaptive Combat Rifle in standard configuration, 2008 prototype._



_


MAGPUL Masada / BushmasterACR - Adaptive Combat Rifle in Entry configuration with 12.5in barrel andside-folding stock.
Image © Magpul_



_


MAGPUL Masada / BushmasterACR - Adaptive Combat Rifle in standard configuration with 16in barrel and side-folding stock.
Image © Magpul_



_


MAGPUL Masada / Bushmaster ACR - Adaptive Combat Rifle in SPR configuration, with 18.5in barrel and fixed adjustable 'sniper' stock.
Image © Magpul_



_


MAGPUL Masada / Bushmaster ACR - Adaptive Combat Rifle diagram showing its modular design.
Image © Bushmaster_



*Data for Standard version*



*Type / action* gas operated, rotating bolt
*Caliber(s)* 5.56x45 / .223 Rem, possibly others such as 7.62x39 M43
*Weightunloaded* 3.3 kg
*Length* 716 mm / 28.2" folded, 947 mm / 37.3" stock fully extended
*Barrel length* 406 mm / 16" (also 318mm / 12.5", 368mm / 14.5" and 457mm / 18")
*Magazinecapacity* 30 rounds


The Masada rifle was developed by US-based company Magpul Industries,which became famous for its line of aftermarket accessories and replacement parts for firearms. Work on the new modular rifle, suitable for civilian, police and military applications and designed more or less along the lines of the SCAR program commenced in 2006. First prototypes were shown to the public in 2007 at ShotShow, and early in 2008 it was announced that new rifle (previously known as Masada) willbe mass produced by famous American gun-making company Bushmaster Firearms. Current plans are to introduce civilian and police(semi-automatic) versions in mid-2009, with military select-fire version scheduled for production in late 2009. It is also planned to introduce Masada / BushmasterACR rifles in 5.56mm / .223 Rem caliber; other calibers might followlater. Magpul also is developing a 7.62x51 / .308 Win version of the Masada / ACR rifle, provisionally known as Masoud. It is still in early development and no information is available on its date of release to the public.

The Masada/ BushmasterACR rifle is gas operated, semi-automatic or selective-fired (Military version only) weapon of modular design. It utilizes aluminum allo yupper receiver, with polymer pistol grip / trigger / magazine housing(lower receiver) unit which is attached to the upper receiver using cross-pins. Various types of lower receivers are planned to accommodate different types of magazines (i.e. Ar-15 type magazines as opposed to AK-type magazines). The trigger / manual safety unit is made as a single removable item, and it mostly utilizes Ar-15-compatible parts. The barrels of ACR / Masada are quick-detachable, with short-stroke gas pistons attached to each barrel. To remove the barrel(for change, inspection or maintenance), user has to remove polymer handguards, then swing down the wire lever, located below the barrel,turn the barrel to unlock and pull it forward and out of the receiver.All barrels are free-floated within handguards to achieve consistent accuracy. Bolt group also is made as a single unit, with captive return spring and rotary multi-lug bolt which locks directly to the barrel breech. The standard magazine housing, which is suited to accept Ar-15 type magazines, has ambidextrous magazine release buttons. The ambidextrous bolt stop release button is located at the front of the triggerguard. Safety lever is also ambidextrous, and charging handle can be installed on either side of the gun, depending on user preferences. Depending on the version (or user preferences) ACR /Masada rifle can be equipped with various Magpul-made buttstocks, fixedor side-folding, and adjustable for length of pull (some also with adjustable cheek rest). Each Masada/ BushmasterACR rifle gas integral Picatinny rail on the top of the receiver;additional accessory rails can be installed on forend according to user preferences. Masada / BushmasterACR rifle can be fitted with removable iron sights, and/or with any optical or night sight with appropriate mounting.

http://world.guns.ru/civil/usa/magpul-masada-acr-e.html


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## Irfan Baloch

MilSpec said:


> Best option would be the MPT or the 417, just for the fact that SCAR and ARX both have polymer receivers. Why risk cracking at the buffertube


wonder how they perform in sub zero temperatures


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## Zarvan

Irfan Baloch said:


> wonder how they perform in sub zero temperatures


The developers of SCAR and HK 417 and MPT-76 are all countries which face massive cold weather so I think Warm enviorment can be the issue not cold ones for these Guns

*DRD Paratus modular semi-automatic rifle / carbine (USA)*



DRD Paratus carbine






DRD Paratus carbine with optional sound suppressor (silencer)






DRD Paratus carbine with shoulder stock folded






DRD Paratus carbine disassembled into major components






Paratus bolt group and return spring






DRD Paratus carbine stored in the compact briefcase





*Calibers*

7.62x51 / .308 Win

*Length, overall*

~ 890 mm (35”) with stock extended

*Weight*

4.2 kg (9.2 lbs) w. 16” barrel

*Barrel length*

305 mm (12”), 406 mm (16”), 457 mm (18”) or 508 mm (20”)

*Magazine capacity, rounds*

20



The 7.62mm Paratus carbine was designed by Swetal “Skip” K. Patel, who previously designed a line of modular AR15-based rifles for Cobb Manufacturing Co, now owned by Remington / Bushmaster. At the present time Mr.Patel runs small company DRD Tactical, which manufactures the Paratus rifle. The Paratus rifle was originally developed to meet solicitation issued in 2011 by US Joint Special Operations Command for “clandestine breakdown sniper system”. At the time of this writing (January 2012) it is not yet known, if Paratus rifle is, or will be submitted to US SOCOM trials. However, it is already available for civilian and LE sales in USA in several versions. The 5.56mm version of the Paratus (compatible with standard AR15-type lower receivers) is said to be in the works.

The 7.62mm Paratus rifle is designed to be stored and carried unobtrusively and without undue attention inside small package such as a briefcase or everyday carry bag, and then, when required, quickly assembled and brought into action, providing its user with range and firepower of conventional semi-automatic rifle firing 7.62x51 / .308 Win ammunition.

The name of carbine, “Paratus” is a Latin word which means “Ready”.



The 7.62mm Paratus rifle / carbine is gas operated, semi-automatic weapon broadly based on AR10 / AR15 system. Its upper and lower receiver halves are made from aircraft-grade aluminum alloy.

Paratus rifle uses Stoner-designed direct impingement gas system, with extended gas tube running above the barrel. Gas system is equipped with 3-position manual gas regulator. The rotary bolt with seven radial locking lugs and cam / pin rotation arrangement is also similar to that of AR10, although the bolt carrier and return spring are different. The bolt carrier is much shorter than typical AR10-style component, and has an inverted U-shaped bracket installed above its gas key. This bracket is used to act against the low diameter captive return spring, which is located around guide rod that runs above the bolt carrier. Complete return spring / spring guide assembly is contained in the upper receiver, allowing for conventional folding shoulder stock to be used on the rifle. Non-reciprocating charging handle is located on the left side of the upper receiver.

Another difference from conventional AR10 / AR15 style rifles is quick detachable barrel and forend system. Barrel (which is made by Lothar Walther) is equipped with screw-on barrel nut and indexing stud. To install the barrel into the receiver, one simply has to insert the barrel into the front of receiver until it is indexed properly and its gas tube entered into the receiver. Then barrel nut is firmly screwed onto the receiver by hand, until barrel is properly fixed. The removable forend with integral rail system is made from aluminum alloy and features squeeze-clamp at is rear, where it seats on the barrel nut. To install the forend, one has to slid it over the barrel until it stops against the front of the receiver, and then fix it there using cam lock. As of now, Paratus rifle can be equipped with free-floated barrels of variable lengths, including 12 inches (which is regulated by NFA’34), and 16, 18 and 20 inches. Paratus rifle barrels are equipped with muzzle brake and/or quick-detach sound suppressor (silencer). Controls of the Paratus rifle are similar to that of most other AR10 / AR15 type rifles, including the trigger unit parts, which are compatible with AR15 platform. Paratus rifle is equipped with adjustable, side-folding shoulder stock originally developed for Remington / Bushmaster ACR rifle. Sighting options include Magpul back-up iron sights, installed on the top Picatinny rail, and any optical sight of user’s choice, installed on the same rail. Additional accessory rails can be mounted on the removable forend according to user preferences. Rifle is fed using 20-round detachable box magazines compatible with Knight’s SR-25 rifles.

http://world.guns.ru/civil/usa/paratus-e.html

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## MilSpec

Irfan Baloch said:


> wonder how they perform in sub zero temperatures


More than the temperature, my concern with polymer lowers is wear of the all the take down pin holes, and the buffer tube attachment. If it cracks you have weird wobbly rifle. The only fix to that would be to replace the receiver which in the grand scheme of things may not be a big deal.


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## Irfan Baloch

MilSpec said:


> More than the temperature, my concern with polymer lowers is wear of the all the take down pin holes, and the buffer tube attachment. If it cracks you have weird wobbly rifle. The only fix to that would be to replace the receiver which in the grand scheme of things may not be a big deal.


sorry i cant comment on the polymer issue. 
I left the forces when the polymer was just introduced into the army and got the bad press as we preferred classic G3 with wooden stock . but there were issues in accuracy and jamming in ever cold environments and type 56 was the go to gun.

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## Zarvan

@RAMPAGE @Arsalan @Sulman Badshah @Tipu7


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## Army research

They are several photos of pak army men testing either Bren or SCAR a supposedly poor person with a 80s good working fx would not dare even step into an audi or Mercedes shop unless he has money then he would test them thus yes scar Beretta(I don't know if actually being tested ) Bren are all possible but considering evidence every one I think is that we will buy tot for scar or Beretta and order ak 103s to complement like we did with type 56 as it was very cheap we also produced how ever a K103 is not so imagine a section of 12 men with mg and other stuff but rifle men with scar and ak in counter insurgency ops that would add diversity and on east border scar modular design means suachien or thar or pak marines in Sir creek it means diverse firepower and will cause Indians to pursue modern weapons too thus halting their other projects and helping us catch up to them also spending Alot of money now means later exporting it to oil Saudis and earning Pakistan more money but as many have said we need large scale optics manufacturing and grenade launcher and then we need good ice creams

And also scar can be used by spec ops as 5.56


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## Zarvan

Army research said:


> They are several photos of pak army men testing either Bren or SCAR a supposedly poor person with a 80s good working fx would not dare even step into an audi or Mercedes shop unless he has money then he would test them thus yes scar Beretta(I don't know if actually being tested ) Bren are all possible but considering evidence every one I think is that we will buy tot for scar or Beretta and order ak 103s to complement like we did with type 56 as it was very cheap we also produced how ever a K103 is not so imagine a section of 12 men with mg and other stuff but rifle men with scar and ak in counter insurgency ops that would add diversity and on east border scar modular design means suachien or thar or pak marines in Sir creek it means diverse firepower and will cause Indians to pursue modern weapons too thus halting their other projects and helping us catch up to them also spending Alot of money now means later exporting it to oil Saudis and earning Pakistan more money but as many have said we need large scale optics manufacturing and grenade launcher and then we need good ice creams
> 
> And also scar can be used by spec ops as 5.56


If you have relatives in Army better contact them and ask them what is going on with the trials. @RAMPAGE I don't know why but I think lot more companies wanted to join G3 replacement program for some reason we only invited 5 and than added few more


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## Army research

Zarvan said:


> If you have relatives in Army better contact them and ask them what is going on with the trials. @RAMPAGE I don't know why but I think lot more companies wanted to join G3 replacement program for some reason we only invited 5 and than added few more


On instagram and news and other forums oh and some one that there is definite testing and they personally like it but the decision is up to high command and I have hope after independently researching all guns shown in ispr photo release of gen raheel sir viewing guns and found scar best for Pakistan use considering potential export value of scar to the oil guys and Malaysia Indonesia heck even Chinese spec op might if it is from Pakistan but if not that then Beretta then Bren zavasta,but doubts on ak-103 as its comparatively old and cheap to its competition being tested and ak 109 108 ,12,107 are all near price of other guns being tested and are better versions of ak itself so yeah if we were buying it to replace g3 we would go for them

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## Zarvan

Army research said:


> On instagram and news and other forums oh and some one that there is definite testing and they personally like it but the decision is up to high command and I have hope after independently researching all guns shown in ispr photo release of gen raheel sir viewing guns and found scar best for Pakistan use considering potential export value of scar to the oil guys and Malaysia Indonesia heck even Chinese spec op might if it is from Pakistan but if not that then Beretta then Bren zavasta,but doubts on ak-103 as its comparatively old and cheap to its competition being tested and ak 109 108 ,12,107 are all near price of other guns being tested and are better versions of ak itself so yeah if we were buying it to replace g3 we would go for them


I hope you are right to replace G3 SCAR is best option and if we are looking for two Guns one to replace G3 and one to replace Type 56 than for replacing Type 56 we should test all the Guns available in 7.62 X 39 caliber


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## Army research

Zarvan said:


> I hope you are right to replace G3 SCAR is best option and if we are looking for two Guns one to replace G3 and one to replace Type 56 than for replacing Type 56 we should test all the Guns available in 7.62 X 39 caliber


And then get cheapest one similar to type 56 and buy it in batches for operations like I know people who say it certain areas muddy cold water etc g3 jams but ak works like a dream


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## Max Pain

Tipu7 said:


> So as per now, we have winner.....?
> Aren't we looking for TWO guns in total?
> Type 56 & G3 cannot be replaced by ONE gun only ......
> Looks like we have winner of Type56 replacement, and it's Ak103 which will be delivered in batches to be used in Tribal areas?


A multical weapon should be an ideal replacement.


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## Zarvan

Army research said:


> And then get cheapest one similar to type 56 and buy it in batches for operations like I know people who say it certain areas muddy cold water etc g3 jams but ak works like a dream


I think for 7.62 X 39 caliber Gun their should be new competeiom where at least 6 different Guns are tested


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## Arsalan

MilSpec said:


> More than the temperature, my concern with polymer lowers is wear of the all the take down pin holes, and the buffer tube attachment. If it cracks you have weird wobbly rifle. The only fix to that would be to replace the receiver which in the grand scheme of things may not be a big deal.





Irfan Baloch said:


> wonder how they perform in sub zero temperatures



I do not think that will be much of a problem. They must be working with some high performance polymers for sure. Breakages are a huge risk and they would have done what is required to cover that vulnerability don't you think?

I have not really looked up what they are using but surely it do not makes much sense to say this is something that was missed. 
But then again, 5hit happens!


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## fitpOsitive

Zarvan said:


> I hope you are right to replace G3 SCAR is best option and if we are looking for two Guns one to replace G3 and one to replace Type 56 than for replacing Type 56 we should test all the Guns available in 7.62 X 39 caliber


I think the question "why we want to replace" tells pretty much. Whether this change is for just a better rifle or the motives are specific.


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## Zarvan

Rana of Heryana said:


> I think the question "why we want to replace" tells pretty much. Whether this change is for just a better rifle or the motives are specific.


Problem is Pakistan uses both G3 and Type 56 in really large numbers so it's impossible that one Gun will replace both G3 and Type 56. So definitely we need two Guns one to replace G3 and one to replace Type 56. I think Gun trial should be extended with at least 10 Guns of 7.62 X 51 calliber should be tested to select one to replace G3 and at least 5 to 8 Guns of 7.62 X 39 calliber should be tested to replace Type 56. @Tipu7 @Sulman Badshah


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## Sulman Badshah

Gun like SCAR , MPT 76 etc have chrome lined barrel.. The barrel itself is capable of withstanding against extreme environment conditions . either cold or hot

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## Zarvan

*CZ-806 BREN-2 assault rifle (Czech republic)*





CZ-806 BREN-2 assault rifle



*Caliber*

5.56x45 NATO

*Action*

Gas operated

*Length, mm*

798-750 / 570 (with 280mm barrel)

*Barrellength, mm*

207, 280 or 356 mm

*Weight, kg*

3.05 (with 280mm barrel)

*Rate of fire, rounds/minute*

850

*Magazine capacity, rounds*

30



The 5.56mm CZ-806 BREN-2 assault rifle was first introduced in 2015 as an upgraded version of the CZ-805 BREN rifle of the same caliber, which is already in service with Czech army. The CZ-806 BREN-2 rifle offers lighter weight, lower manufacturing costs and slightly better ergonomics compared to its predecessor.



The CZ-806 BREN-2 assault rifle is a gas operated, selective fire weapon. It uses short stroke gas piston and rotary bolt locking system. Barrels are quick-detachable and are available in different lengths (and possibly in different calibers as well). Upper receiver is made from aluminum alloy, lower receiver with integrated pistol grip and magazine housing is made from polymer. Sighting equipment and accessories are installed using integrated top Picatinny rail plus additional bolt-on rails on the forend. Side-folding shoulder stock is made from polymer. All manual controls are ambidextrous, charging handle can be installed on either side of the gun. Safety/fire selector switch allows only 2 modes of fire – single shots and full automatic. Rifle is fed using STANAG-compatible detachable magazines.

http://world.guns.ru/assault/chex/cz06-e.html


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## Army research

I think scar can replace type 56 and g3 as it is modular and can be used as 5.56 so 5.56 and 7.62 together in one squad of 12 would be really good with mg


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## Zarvan

Army research said:


> I think scar can replace type 56 and g3 as it is modular and can be used as 5.56 so 5.56 and 7.62 together in one squad of 12 would be really good with mg


Well I am hoping for the SCAR to win but if are looking for two Guns than with SCAR this Gun can be an option 
http://world.guns.ru/assault/isr/ak-alfa-e.html


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## Army research

Zarvan said:


> Well I am hoping for the SCAR to win but if are looking for two Guns than with SCAR this Gun can be an option


Would it not be too expensive as with a new modern gun we in manufacturing we would still need like a cheaper ak i think we should for that role go for a Chinese gun as it could be cheaper than ak and improve relations too. What do you think

An upgraded variant of QBZ-03 OR THE QBZ-05 both have good upgraded variants for coun
ter terrorist ops


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## Zarvan

Army research said:


> Would it not be too expensive as with a new modern gun we in manufacturing we would still need like a cheaper ak i think we should for that role go for a Chinese gun as it could be cheaper than ak and improve relations too. What do you think
> 
> An upgraded variant of QBZ-03 OR THE QBZ-05 both have good upgraded variants for coun
> ter terrorist ops


Chinese Guns are not good . That is why we didn't even tested them


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## Zarvan

Those supporting BREN just because we can also get latest optics from Czech Republic company than for them not only ASESLAN of Turkey is developing latest optics but also this company

http://www.3eeos.com/en/main-page

@Arsalan @Quwa @Khafee @RAMPAGE @Horus @balixd @Sulman Badshah @Tipu7


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Those supporting BREN just because we can also get latest optics from Czech Republic company than for them not only ASESLAN of Turkey is developing latest optics but also this company
> 
> http://www.3eeos.com/en/main-page
> 
> @Arsalan @Quwa @Khafee @RAMPAGE @Horus @balixd @Sulman Badshah @Tipu7


Zarvan the Czech company is known & established for their optics and they make lens for Aimpoint as well!

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## Zarvan

*HK417 A2 | Effective and versatile
The HK417 A2 is an enhanced development of the tried-and-tested and successful HK417 universal assault rifle in calibre 7.62 mm x 51 NATO.

Available with three different barrel lengths, the gas-operated weapon allows gas adjustment without the need for tools as standard, a 40 mm interface for GLM/M320/HK269 add-on grenade launchers, a slim telescopic buttstock as well as magazine release lever and bolt catch lever on both sides. The design of the receiver, barrel interface, gas port and the bore axis alignment of the rifle have been further optimised to increase its accuracy and reliability.

The internal interaction between individual assemblies within the weapon has been perfectly streamlined to maximise the ballistic reserve of 7.62 mm x 51 NATO rounds as well as target immobilisation beyond a combat distance of 200 metres. Depending on mission, terrain conditions or threat levels, the HK417 A2 not only supplements the weapons portfolio of special forces for military and law enforcement applications, but it is also suitable for infantry operations in symmetrical or asymmetrical combat situations.
http://www.heckler-koch.com/en/products/military/assault-rifles/hk417/hk417-a2-13/overview.html

Germany is selling Patrol Ships to KSA even after all the fuss of human rights so why on earth we are not testing this Gun ? After SCAR I think this Gun is best in the world.
@Arsalan @balixd @Path-Finder @PAR 5 @kaonalpha *


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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> Those supporting BREN just because we can also get latest optics from Czech Republic company than for them not only ASESLAN of Turkey is developing latest optics but also this company
> 
> http://www.3eeos.com/en/main-page
> 
> @Arsalan @Quwa @Khafee @RAMPAGE @Horus @balixd @Sulman Badshah @Tipu7



Not "*JUST*" because of this if you study the details and also a few comments in previous pages. There are plenty of other reasons too.


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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> Not "*JUST*" because of this if you study the details and also a few comments in previous pages. There are plenty of other reasons too.


And what about HK 417. If Germans are still selling Patrol Ships and other weapons to KSA than I don't think that they would have any problem selling us so why are we not testing HK 417. I have some serious questions on these Gun trials taking place.
@balixd @F.O.X @Icarus @kaonalpha


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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> And what about HK 417. If Germans are still selling Patrol Ships and other weapons to KSA than I don't think that they would have any problem selling us so why are we not testing HK 417. I have some serious questions on these Gun trials taking place.
> @balixd @F.O.X @Icarus @kaonalpha


Arabs are filthy rich and float on oil dear. You cant compare yourself with them. They are good friends with US, EU and even Israel and still be the leader of Muslim umaa when required. DIPLOMACY!! Something we suck at! 

HK417 will be a good choice if we opt for it but we haven't. Sad. 

Lets see what happens, CZ will be an impressive options, SCAR too. Anyone of these three guns will make me real happy specially if we manage to sign and detailed deal covering wider aspects than merely getting home production for our own army. Export permission, trading partner or parts suppliers, anything will be massive and is more likely to be offered with CZ and HK417 (we are not currently really looking at this). As i have mentioned on numerous occasion, the decision will go beyond judging the performance. Performance will just be one of the parameters we are going to base our decision on.

Also do not take that other thing i have been saying too lightly. Getting a batch of guns and then holding back for some time to see how they perform may well be the case. The idea behind this approach remains the one of an indigenous gun. There still is some support for this idea and we may see that happen. It will be good but if we can just get export permission for any of the three above mentioned guns then there won’t be much need to invest on making a new one for our self. Just go with one of these and launch a “P” version as we usually do.

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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> Arabs are filthy rich and float on oil dear. You cant compare yourself with them. They are good friends with US, EU and even Israel and still be the leader of Muslim umaa when required. DIPLOMACY!! Something we suck at!
> 
> HK417 will be a good choice if we opt for it but we haven't. Sad.
> 
> Lets see what happens, CZ will be an impressive options, SCAR too. Anyone of these three guns will make me real happy specially if we manage to sign and detailed deal covering wider aspects than merely getting home production for our own army. Export permission, trading partner or parts suppliers, anything will be massive and is more likely to be offered with CZ and HK417 (we are not currently really looking at this). As i have mentioned on numerous occasion, the decision will go beyond judging the performance. Performance will just be one of the parameters we are going to base our decision on.
> 
> Also do not take that other thing i have been saying too lightly. Getting a batch of guns and then holding back for some time to see how they perform may well be the case. The idea behind this approach remains the one of an indigenous gun. There still is some support for this idea and we may see that happen. It will be good but if we can just get export permission for any of the three above mentioned guns then there won’t be much need to invest on making a new one for our self. Just go with one of these and launch a “P” version as we usually do.


Yes I know they are filthy rich but we are testing FN SCAR so we have the money to buy weapons so the question is why not test HK-417 when we are already using HK product G3. Even your post suggest that you are confused that why on earth we are not testing HK-417. @balixd or @F.O.X should answer this

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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> Yes I know they are filthy rich but we are testing FN SCAR so we have the money to buy weapons so the question is why not test HK-417 when we are already using HK product G3. Even your post suggest that you are confused that why on earth we are not testing HK-417. @balixd or @F.O.X should answer this


Lolz, sure i am confused why we are not deal with HK as we have had good work relation with them already. The only reason that may come to mind is that the relations was perhaps not that "good". Such things do not make it to public forums. 
By comparing with the oil guys, i was just pointing you to the fact that we are not that rich. Have we got funds for SCAR or not or all that is a different debate. The point simply is that we are not that rich and we cannot cite that since the Arabs are getting that so we should also. The point i am trying to convey is that they are filthy rich and have much more to offer then a deal for HK417s alone. When you look at the broader picture you will realize where we stand compared to them when it comes to spendings. It is not just about one deal, it is the potential that may make people look the other way. 

The last point of post was about the procurement road map and the future ideas. 

I hope you understand this break up now


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## Army research

Why isn't 5.56 lethal enough for us I personally have used M4 and it seems like no recoil or firing an air gun

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## Zarvan

Army research said:


> Why isn't 5.56 lethal enough for us I personally have used M4 and it seems like no recoil or firing an air gun


Well because it's not as lethal as 7.62 X 51. Secondly 5.56 was adopted by Europe and NATO and USA so they can injure the enemy and because of that enemy soldiers will have to carry their partner. But now even Europe is switching back to 7.62 X 51 caliber because they have realized that better you kill the enemy instead of just injuring.

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## Army research

IF some one has any info please tell us what the latest news


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## Zarvan

Army research said:


> IF some one has any info please tell us what the latest news


I am waiting for Mr @balixd to share the latest news

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## Army research

Zarvan said:


> I am waiting for Mr @balixd to share the latest news


Thanks bro but if we select scar that will shift conventional military balance in Pakistan. Favour as its a gun still only used by spec ops so if all military has it yikes let's hope the deal does not get sabotaged because Indians are still stuck on weapons of old and Afghans are also still less trained but anyways it will be way better than what we have now and will save and take many lives and improve our kill ratio as g3 albeit good is now old like M1 GRAND and Springfield and sten and Bren machine gun and ak 47 alas



Army research said:


> Thanks bro but if we select scar that will shift conventional military balance in Pakistan. Favour as its a gun still only used by spec ops so if all military has it yikes let's hope the deal does not get sabotaged because Indians are still stuck on weapons of old and Afghans are also still less trained but anyways it will be way better than what we have now and will save and take many lives and improve our kill ratio as g3 albeit good is now old like M1 GRAND and Springfield and sten and Bren machine gun and ak 47 alas


But still MG3 will never get old (it's an insider joke )

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## XYON

My selection of AK 103 above as the preferred rifle for PA has held true. Pakistan to place an order with Russia very soon for thousands of units is the news I hear today. Good Choice PA

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## Zarvan

XYON said:


> My selection of AK 103 above as the preferred rifle for PA has held true. Pakistan to place an order with Russia very soon for thousands of units is the news I hear today. Good Choice PA


AK-103 is not decided as replacement for G3 but going to few Para Military Forces like ANF and others. Trials for G3 replacement are still on going


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## Zarvan

As much as I love AR-15s, they’re constantly flirting with redundancy and oversaturation. So rifles like the Fabrique Nationale SCAR 17S are welcome additions to the modern rifle marketplace. But beyond its contribution to increased market variety, does the 17S have true staying power, or is it simply a niche rifle with “Call of Duty” looks and a Ferrari price tag?

Visually, the design language of the 17S commands attention. Nevertheless, some people reject its looks as juvenile gamer delusions of grandeur. Personally, I like the playful balance between futuristic laser blaster and moderately evolved AR. Sometimes ARs can look disjointed and lacking uniformity, as if put together from a MacGyver parts bin. In contrast, the SCAR 17S looks like it was designed from one solid piece of material.





The stock is to me the most defining visual characteristic of the SCAR. Unfortunately, it also looks incredibly similar to an UGG boot. I like the stock, but I can’t look at the SCAR without an image of that fur-covered turd that pre-pubescent teenagers call a boot popping up in my head. Still, there’s a toy-like quality about the looks of the 17S that gives the impression that it’s an incredibly fun gun to shoot.

Ergonomically, I don’t think the 17S is an obvious winner. It can feel a little bloated and not as nimble as other .308 AR-pattern rifles; but what it lacks in finesse and grace, it makes up for in weight, balance and comfort. ARs typically feel like they were designed with straight-edge rulers, but the SCAR’s ergonomics feel like they were conceived with a protractor, signifying FN’s understanding that the human body is a combination of curves, straight lines and right angles.

Yes, the stock looks like a Taylor Swift uniform staple, but it’s a big part of why this gun’s ergonomics are much better than they appear at first glance. The slight curve on the back end of the stock conforms nicely to the natural curve created where my chest and shoulder meet. The adjustable cheek weld is a silent blessing to my neck; I’m not forced to hyperextend or contract it to see through my optic like a damn ninja turtle.

The balance this gun exhibits rivals that of an Olympic gymnast on a balance beam. I love it. The rifle’s weight remained consistently balanced and centered right over the magazine well. Speaking of weight, the SCAR 17S is creepy light. At eight pounds, it may look bloated; but it’s clearly all gas, because it’s one of the lightest – if not _the_ lightest – in its peer class.






What I love about the SCAR is how complicated it looks, but how basic and intuitive it feels in your hands. Again, the stock steals the show in that you can fold it over, decreasing its profile. Your fingers naturally land on all the things that matter. The SCAR is completely ambidextrous, including the reciprocating charging handle.
In many ways the SCAR 17S is a freak of nature. How it manages to be so light and maneuverable and manage the recoil of the .308 the way it does is debatably brilliant. It’s like it doesn’t know it’s shooting a .308. You put the gun up to your shoulder and brace yourself for what you expect to be scoliosis-inducing recoil that will cause you to question whether it’s worth shooting all 20 rounds in its magazine. You pull the trigger and instead of hitting you like an anvil, it firmly shoves you on the chest and says, “See, not so bad, now let’s do it again because that was awesome!”

The reciprocating charging handle on the SCAR is an obvious point of contention for some people. Theoretically, it can get caught on things and cause your gun to malfunction when you’re in a fight. But out here where I’m not being shot at, a reciprocating charging handle is to shooting what skeletonized watches are to the timepiece world. Seeing the beautifully placed gears turning makes the watch feel special, the same way seeing the charging handle of the SCAR 17S crashing back and forth each time you pull the trigger makes the shooting experience feel more epic.

Double-taps and rapid fire were enjoyable and didn’t make me feel like I was a crash test dummy holding on for dear life. The trigger on the SCAR isn’t the greatest in the world, but it’s nowhere near as bad as some people make it out to be. It’s heavy, with some creep, and the reset feels a little hollow, but it’s hardly horrible.

The SCAR doesn’t come cheap, so be ready to pony up between $2,500 and $2,800 for one. Not to mention that the magazines are proprietary and also not budget-friendly. But for the money, you don’t just get a rifle. You really do get an experience. It’s a rifle that, when shot, makes you feel like you’re defying some law of physics. It’s a gun of many talents.

Many rifles can do the long game just fine, but not many can play the short distance game just as well; they’re just too heavy and a bit unwieldy. Currently, if I were forced to pick one rifle as my sole .308 piston-driven rifle, it would be the SCAR 17S. Considering the love I have for the HK MR762, that’s saying a hell of a lot. 

_Colion Noir is an NRA News Commentator and the host of NOIR on NRA Freestyle.

https://www.americas1stfreedom.org/articles/2015/3/2/noir-review-fnh-scar-17s/_

*FNH FNAC (FN Advanced Carbine)*

Recoil Staff
March 12, 2012






FN Herstal USA’s latest SCAR variant the FNAC (FN Advanced Carbine) will be their entry into the US Army Individual Carbine competition. The Individual Carbine competition is the Army’s open competition to replace the M4. This competition only applies to the Army, other branches of the US Military will be sticking with the M4 for now.

The FNAC is chambered in NATO 5.56x45mm like the SCAR-L and civilian SCAR-16s, but the FNAC has some significant differences. The barrel is 14” long, 0.5” shorter than the SCAR-L STD and 2.5” shorter than the SCAR-16s. Compared to both the L and 16s the FNAC has removed the integrated front sight from the gas block and put a traditional folding front sight on the picatinny rail. The most significant difference is the charging handle has been re-engineered to be non-reciprocating. One of our dislikes of the SCAR-17s (.308 chambered civilian version of the SCAR-H) that we reviewed in issue 1 of RECOIL Magazine was the reciprocating charging handle. Will their be a civilian variant of the FNAC – or at least conversion kits that allow SCAR-16 and 17 owners convert to a non-reciprocating charging handle? Only FNH knows that.


1/2


2/2




Here is what FN Herstal USA is saying about the FNAC

The FN Advanced Carbine (FNAC) is ready to serve as the U.S. Army’s next generation Individual Carbine. Its pedigree of excellence evolves from bold advancements in technical design validated by exhaustive testing for reliability, accuracy and durability. Expect the same high performance under extreme conditions with ease of maintenance and minimal logistics support seen in all FN SCAR® weapons.

CALIBER: 5.56x45mm NATO


Selective fire
Short-stroke gas piston
Rotating, locking bolt
625 rounds per minute (RPM) cyclic rate of fire
Compact design
Composite polymer trigger module
RECEIVER


Hard-anodized monolithic, aluminum receiver
MIL-STD 1913 accessory rails at the 3,6,9 and 12 o’clock positions, sequentially numbered grooves
Removable front and rear back-up iron sights
BARREL


14″ barrel length
Hammer-forged, chrome-lined steel
Fully free-floating design
Cerakote flat dark earth (FDE) surface finish
Effective flash hider and sound suppressor
M9 bayonet compatibility
STOCK


Telescoping design
Side folding feature provides more compact weapon package in aircraft and vehicle deployments, and can still be fired from the folded position
Adjustable cheekpiece
Composite polymer construction with molded-in FDE color
OPERATING CONTROLS


Ambidextrous selector lever and magazine release
Non reciprocating charging handle, with ambidextrous control and forward assist capability
Enlarged trigger guard for easier access when wearing gloves
Adjustable gas regulator for use with sound suppressor to maintain constant rate of fire
MAGAZINE


Standard M16/M4
Aluminum magazines


Read more: http://www.recoilweb.com/fnh-fnac-fn-advanced-carbine-255.html#ixzz4EiA7y7mW

The different versions SCAR offer it's stupid to choose some other Gun.


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## Zarvan

*AUSA12: New Photos of FN’s Advanced Carbine*





FNH USA finally decided to display its new Advanced Carbine that it submitted to the Army’s Improved Carbine competition. It caught my eye as I walked by FN’s booth at the Association of the United States Army’s 2012 meeting and exposition in Washington, D.C.

Yes, the FNAC looks very much like the 5.56mm MK 16 Special Operations Forces Combat Assault Rifle or SCAR, but there are a few differences.

It features a non-reciprocating charging handle and is slightly lighter than the MK16, weighing in at 7.95 pounds with a loaded 30 round magazine – a key requirement in the carbine competition. It’s equipped with a 14-inch hammer-forged barrel.

Here are a few photos:














http://kitup.military.com/2012/10/ausa12-photos-fns-advanced-carbine.html

@Sulman Badshah @Horus @balixd @Tipu7


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## Army research

I think if we acquire scar our ssg and lcb might get this hell if officer can buy this I will


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## Zarvan

Army research said:


> I think if we acquire scar our ssg and lcb might get this hell if officer can buy this I will


SCAR offers versions for all kind of forces Sniper and Infantry and Special Forces. It's really the Gun for future

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## Army research

Zarvan said:


> SCAR offers versions for all kind of forces Sniper and Infantry and Special Forces. It's really the Gun for future


I know it even has experimental infantry automatic rifle IE lmg but fnac is quite advanced and just saying that if our reg infantry has fnh and fn l lcb and ssg would have this then we can give their m4 to other forces like marines most of them still use ak 47


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## Zarvan

Army research said:


> I know it even has experimental infantry automatic rifle IE lmg but fnac is quite advanced and just saying that if our reg infantry has fnh and fn l lcb and ssg would have this then we can give their m4 to other forces like marines most of them still use ak 47


SCAR if selected will go to all three Armed Forces. Which include our marines also

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## proka89

*Zastava Oruzje exporting USD 7.5 million worth of AK-47s to America – 95% of arrangements for 2017 already made
*
Ten of the 17 machining centers ordered have just arrived to Zastava Oruzje, of which eight have already been put into operation. The remaining seven numerical control machines should arrive to the factory by mid-August.

The value of the investment is around EUR 2.5 million, of which EUR 2 million were procured through the loan by Srpska Banka with a grace period and a repayment period of two years, whereas the remaining EUR 500,000 have been provided by the factory itself.

— The new equipment will enable the reduction of costs and a stable quality of the products, and so increase the competitiveness of Zastava’s program in the world markets, *where arrangements in the value of USD 50 million have been made for this year.* This will be sufficient for financing the factory’s operation and making a profit of around five million dollars, said the director of Zastava Oruzje, Milojko Brzakovic.

He mentioned that, in the first six months of 2016, the factory’s production had been 10% larger than in the same period in 2015, and that, from the beginning of the year till May, it had made a profit of RSD 243.5 million.

He also pointed out that Zastava Oruzje was well in the process of making business arrangements for the next year. At the recently held Defense and Security Exhibition Eurosatory 2016 in Paris, an agreement was signed with an American partner, the company Century Arms, on the export of semi-automatic AK-47 rifles (used in America for hunting) in 2017 in the amount of USD 7.5 million.

*A new Indian state delegation, interested in buying infantry weapons, will come to the factory on June 20, since the Kragujevac program won one of their last year’s tenders. A day before, representatives of Zastava will attend a demonstration of the technical and shooting potential of India’s ordnance in New Delhi.*

Brzakovic claims that Zastava Oruzje had already made 95% of the arrangements planned for 2017, and that the remaining 5% would be agreed on by the end of August. 

http://www.ekapija.com/website/en/p...rica-95-of-arrangements-for-2017-already-made

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## Zarvan

Many friends are suggesting that FN SCAR and AK-103 are leading and we may go for both. As for SCAR their is no issue getting that with TOT but we would have to talk to Russia about AK-103. Their are reports that we may buy few thousand AK-105 if Russia is ready to introduce 7.62 X 39 version in AK-105. In my humble opinion instead of AK-103 Pakistan should test latest AK-400.






@Horus @Arsalan @balixd @RAMPAGE


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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> Many friends are suggesting that FN SCAR and AK-103 are leading and we may go for both. As for SCAR their is no issue getting that with TOT but we would have to talk to Russia about AK-103. Their are reports that we may buy few thousand AK-105 if Russia is ready to introduce 7.62 X 39 version in AK-105. In my humble opinion instead of AK-103 Pakistan should test latest AK-400.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Horus @Arsalan @balixd @RAMPAGE


The selection is for a small batch and decision to continue or opt for another option will only come after a few years after the initial batch is inducted. You may not see this coming as official news but this is what the talks are about. The support for a local design is the main factor behind such approach. Also for SCAR leading the trials, it may be leading the trials but the decision of which gun will be selected will depend on thing more than just performance. Those things are all still far from being finalized and one can see a few other options that might leave SCAR behind. I however do hope that it is either SCAR or CZ Bern (whichever offer the better deal and i am not talking about price only).

Plus what happened to your views about AK103 and the Russians? It was not long ago you were confirming around a dozen systems that we were sure to buy from Russia. Now they will start creating problems with AK103 (an old gun) manufacturing? Weren't they suppose to give us Su35, Pantsir, Mi28, S350, some other SAM system that i cannot remember now along with a few other high end machinery? Now creating problems in AK103 as per your friends? That is a strange change in there policy i would say. (if it ever was like that)


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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> The selection is for a small batch and decision to continue or opt for another option will only come after a few years after the initial batch is inducted. You may not see this coming as official news but this is what the talks are about. The support for a local design is the main factor behind such approach. Also for SCAR leading the trials, it may be leading the trials but the decision of which gun will be selected will depend on thing more than just performance. Those things are all still far from being finalized and one can see a few other options that might leave SCAR behind. I however do hope that it is either SCAR or CZ Bern (whichever offer the better deal and i am not talking about price only).
> 
> Plus what happened to your views about AK103 and the Russians? It was not long ago you were confirming around a dozen systems that we were sure to buy from Russia. Now they will start creating problems with AK103 (an old gun) manufacturing? Weren't they suppose to give us Su35, Pantsir, Mi28, S350, some other SAM system that i cannot remember now along with a few other high end machinery? Now creating problems in AK103 as per your friends? That is a strange change in there policy i would say. (if it ever was like that)


What I know is FN SCAR has outclassed every other Gun. And I think reports have been sent to leadership. FN SCAR if selected will come with TOT and their are no political issues but would have to talk to Russia for AK-103 thoughts of few low rank officers. No problem just Army Chief needs to have a talk with Putin and yes they are offering SU-35 and MI-28 and Pantsir S2 and others. This political issue thing was personal opinion of few lower rank officers not senior guys. As for local designing and development well most likely not going to happen. FN SCAR is not only favourite due to performance but also because of the versions FN are offering from Heavy 7.62 to Light to Carbine and even a version which can replace our MP5. Some friends are also telling about AK-105 being tested ( for Special Forces ) but it's in 5.45 X 39 caliber but Russia may offer 7.62 version in it. Finally I think for selecting a Gun of 7.62 X 39 calliber a totally new trial should take place in which AK-400 and AK-12 along with other 7.62 X 39 caliber Guns from around the world should be tested.


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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> What I know is FN SCAR has outclassed every other Gun. And I think reports have been sent to leadership. FN SCAR if selected will come with TOT and their are no political issues but would have to talk to Russia for AK-103 thoughts of few low rank officers. No problem just Army Chief needs to have a talk with Putin and yes they are offering SU-35 and MI-28 and Pantsir S2 and others. This political issue thing was personal opinion of few lower rank officers not senior guys. As for local designing and development well most likely not going to happen. FN SCAR is not only favourite due to performance but also because of the versions FN are offering from Heavy 7.62 to Light to Carbine and even a version which can replace our MP5. Some friends are also telling about AK-105 being tested ( for Special Forces ) but it's in 5.45 X 39 caliber but Russia may offer 7.62 version in it. Finally I think for selecting a Gun of 7.62 X 39 calliber a totally new trial should take place in which AK-400 and AK-12 along with other 7.62 X 39 caliber Guns from around the world should be tested.


It may have, in performance, but as mentioned the trials are just going to be ONE of the parameters that decide which gun is selected. There will be a lot of others things to be considered when making the decision. ToT or license manufacturing? That is another thing but still all bases are not covered. This is a gun and not some aircraft where ToT will be the deal breaker. Things like the intellectual rights, authority to manufacture and export, offer to be the registered partner for parts supply etc are few other things that will be given great importance in this case and rightly so. Whether SCAR or anyone else will offer that or not are just speculation right now. What they say in there marketing page do not necessarily mean an official stance for EVERY scenario. All things will be considered and a decision for the first batch will be made only then.

As for local gun, I mentioned this earlier as well, there is a lot of support in the concerned posts still. I am talking director level and am confirming this based on personal discussion with them. Now whether this is or will be the right move or not is a separate and I am not debating that, just stating the fact HOW IT IS.

Lastly, I agree that if we are option for two type, even if the other is in limited number we should have had trials for that too.7.62 x 39 is to be bought in lower numbers and also because the other one have a more complex and detailed future planned (in far greater numbers, looking for export rights etc, possibility of a local gun in this category etc) thus the extensive trials! Still, trials for 7.62 x 39 would be good. 

One thing that i would just add, although i know you wont understand is that things with Russia are NOT like what you say dear. It is not like "No problem just Army Chief needs to have a talk with Putin ...." as you said in your post . It is not only us who have an army chief or have government officials. Others have them too and many would love to undermine and sabotage your projects. It is not like "No problem just Army Chief needs to have a talk with Putin "  
It is not like this WITH ANYONE for God's Sake!


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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> It may have, in performance, but as mentioned the trials are just going to be ONE of the parameters that decide which gun is selected. There will be a lot of others things to be considered when making the decision. ToT or license manufacturing? That is another thing but still all bases are not covered. This is a gun and not some aircraft where ToT will be the deal breaker. Things like the intellectual rights, authority to manufacture and export, offer to be the registered partner for parts supply etc are few other things that will be given great importance in this case and rightly so. Whether SCAR or anyone else will offer that or not are just speculation right now. What they say in there marketing page do not necessarily mean an official stance for EVERY scenario. All things will be considered and a decision for the first batch will be made only then.
> 
> As for local gun, I mentioned this earlier as well, there is a lot of support in the concerned posts still. I am talking director level and am confirming this based on personal discussion with them. Now whether this is or will be the right move or not is a separate and I am not debating that, just stating the fact HOW IT IS.
> 
> Lastly, I agree that if we are option for two type, even if the other is in limited number we should have had trials for that too.7.62 x 39 is to be bought in lower numbers and also because the other one have a more complex and detailed future planned (in far greater numbers, looking for export rights etc, possibility of a local gun in this category etc) thus the extensive trials! Still, trials for 7.62 x 39 would be good.
> 
> One thing that i would just add, although i know you wont understand is that things with Russia are NOT like what you say dear. It is not like "No problem just Army Chief needs to have a talk with Putin ...." as you said in your post . It is not only us who have an army chief or have government officials. Others have them too and many would love to undermine and sabotage your projects. It is not like "No problem just Army Chief needs to have a talk with Putin "
> It is not like this WITH ANYONE for God's Sake!


I know about the concerned posts and as for AK-103. AK is independent company and do mostly what they want and hardly take pressure. As for local design I know about interest in by some officials but idea now is pretty much dropped and it would be decided on these Gun trials. Only funny part is G3M is still equally good to SCAR when it comes to accuracy but has much more weight and not much room for further modifications and also can't offer different caliber


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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> I know about the concerned posts and as for AK-103. AK is independent company and do mostly what they want and hardly take pressure. As for local design I know about interest in by some officials but idea now is pretty much dropped and it would be decided on these Gun trials. Only funny part is G3M is still equally good to SCAR when it comes to accuracy but has much more weight and not much room for further modifications and also can't offer different caliber



No matter how independent one thinks a private contractor is, there always is someone pulling those strings! We of all people should understand that.
For Local gun, sorry to say this but you are wrong. It is far from being dropped and there still is a strong support in concerned circles. Also please note that you wont be hearing anything about it for quite a few years. Once the current gun selection process completes and a decision is made even then i am not sure there will be a mention of a local design. However i am just telling you what is going on and what i was not stopped from telling. 

The current decision will be based on factors far more detailed then only performance. The Trials we hear about are just to gauge that performance aspect. There will be and is a lot going on behind closed doors.


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## Zarvan

*FNH USA Shows Off New 7.62×39 Mk. 17 SCAR Prototype*

Posted October 13, 2015 in Guns & Gear, News, Other Gear & Gadgets, Rifles by Nathaniel F with 67 Comments







The FN-made 7.62×39 SCAR, long rumored to be a dead project, has resurfaced. FNH USA was showing off a variant of the Mk. 17 SCAR Heavy at the 2015 Association of the United States Army annual meeting this week. The rifle is apparently in the earlier stages of development, as it appears to have a rapid prototyped lower receiver.SoldierSystems.net reports:


*Many thought the AK compatibility requirement for the SOF Combat Assault Rifle had fallen off the table. Not true. Rather, USSOCOM initially concentrated in the impending need for 5.56 and 7.62NATO variants. Now, FN has built a 7.62×39 version of the Combat Assault Rifle to fulfill a requirement. with the CAR contract entering its second five years, you’ll start to see these models hitting the field as a reliable alternative to battlefield pickup AKs.













The rifle obviously differs from the standard SCAR17 in its lower receiver, which has a magwell dimensioned for AK magazines, and a matching lever release, but also a new gas block with nofolding front sight, similar to the Mk. 16-derived FNAC carbine.



http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/10/13/fnh-usa-shows-off-new-7-62x39-mk-17-scar-prototype/

*

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## Army research

Zarvan said:


> *FNH USA Shows Off New 7.62×39 Mk. 17 SCAR Prototype*
> 
> Posted October 13, 2015 in Guns & Gear, News, Other Gear & Gadgets, Rifles by Nathaniel F with 67 Comments
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The FN-made 7.62×39 SCAR, long rumored to be a dead project, has resurfaced. FNH USA was showing off a variant of the Mk. 17 SCAR Heavy at the 2015 Association of the United States Army annual meeting this week. The rifle is apparently in the earlier stages of development, as it appears to have a rapid prototyped lower receiver.SoldierSystems.net reports:
> 
> 
> *Many thought the AK compatibility requirement for the SOF Combat Assault Rifle had fallen off the table. Not true. Rather, USSOCOM initially concentrated in the impending need for 5.56 and 7.62NATO variants. Now, FN has built a 7.62×39 version of the Combat Assault Rifle to fulfill a requirement. with the CAR contract entering its second five years, you’ll start to see these models hitting the field as a reliable alternative to battlefield pickup AKs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The rifle obviously differs from the standard SCAR17 in its lower receiver, which has a magwell dimensioned for AK magazines, and a matching lever release, but also a new gas block with nofolding front sight, similar to the Mk. 16-derived FNAC carbine.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/10/13/fnh-usa-shows-off-new-7-62x39-mk-17-scar-prototype/
> *


I almost shouted when I saw this but alas Pakistan cannot afford this unless it comes in package with original scar version and grenade launcher then we could replace every single gun in entire armed forces from pilot pdw to officer scar l to western troops with this I hope the chief sir sees this post one of our units with these could deal with any Afghans and blow their torkham posts with scars grenade launcher

Would officers be allowed to buy guns for personal use if scar gives fn gives us tot


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## Max Pain

Zarvan said:


> *FNH USA Shows Off New 7.62×39 Mk. 17 SCAR Prototype*
> 
> Posted October 13, 2015 in Guns & Gear, News, Other Gear & Gadgets, Rifles by Nathaniel F with 67 Comments
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The FN-made 7.62×39 SCAR, long rumored to be a dead project, has resurfaced. FNH USA was showing off a variant of the Mk. 17 SCAR Heavy at the 2015 Association of the United States Army annual meeting this week. The rifle is apparently in the earlier stages of development, as it appears to have a rapid prototyped lower receiver.SoldierSystems.net reports:
> 
> 
> *Many thought the AK compatibility requirement for the SOF Combat Assault Rifle had fallen off the table. Not true. Rather, USSOCOM initially concentrated in the impending need for 5.56 and 7.62NATO variants. Now, FN has built a 7.62×39 version of the Combat Assault Rifle to fulfill a requirement. with the CAR contract entering its second five years, you’ll start to see these models hitting the field as a reliable alternative to battlefield pickup AKs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The rifle obviously differs from the standard SCAR17 in its lower receiver, which has a magwell dimensioned for AK magazines, and a matching lever release, but also a new gas block with nofolding front sight, similar to the Mk. 16-derived FNAC carbine.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/10/13/fnh-usa-shows-off-new-7-62x39-mk-17-scar-prototype/
> *



If true, this can even remove the need for that Type 56 replacement,

one SCAR to rule em all.

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## Zarvan

Army research said:


> I almost shouted when I saw this but alas Pakistan cannot afford this unless it comes in package with original scar version and grenade launcher then we could replace every single gun in entire armed forces from pilot pdw to officer scar l to western troops with this I hope the chief sir sees this post one of our units with these could deal with any Afghans and blow their torkham posts with scars grenade launcher
> 
> Would officers be allowed to buy guns for personal use if scar gives fn gives us tot


Belgium is offering entire package I mean all versions


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## Army research

Zarvan said:


> Belgium is offering entire package I mean all versions


Why don't we have it 
I mean thus will improve our boys survival rate Alot

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## Zarvan

FN SCAR in hands of Belgian Soldier

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## Sulman Badshah

SCAR L 5.56mm variant in Pakistan .

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## Quwa

Arsalan said:


> No matter how independent one thinks a private contractor is, there always is someone pulling those strings! We of all people should understand that.
> For Local gun, sorry to say this but you are wrong. It is far from being dropped and there still is a strong support in concerned circles. Also please note that you wont be hearing anything about it for quite a few years. Once the current gun selection process completes and a decision is made even then i am not sure there will be a mention of a local design. However i am just telling you what is going on and what i was not stopped from telling.
> 
> The current decision will be based on factors far more detailed then only performance. The Trials we hear about are just to gauge that performance aspect. There will be and is a lot going on behind closed doors.


One problem with the new designs - i.e. SCAR, CZ, ARX, etc - is that they're too new. In the world of rifles, 5 years worth of combat experience - while a lot - pales in comparison to the market, which is flush with designs packing decades of usage, improvements, feedback, etc. Even some new designs, e.g. HK-416/417, are essentially late model iterations of the older AR-15 platform. If the PA does this responsibly, we're not going to see a "final" decision for some quite time, though I do think we may actually see multiple types bought in 1K+ batches for mass comparative testing, feedback, iterative improvements, etc.

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## Zarvan



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## Zarvan



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## Super Falcon

HK 417 SHOULD BEEN INCLUDED can be toughest contender and hard to neglect diversity which HK 417 gives in battlefield


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## That Guy

Army research said:


> I almost shouted when I saw this but alas Pakistan cannot afford this unless it comes in package with original scar version and grenade launcher then we could replace every single gun in entire armed forces from pilot pdw to officer scar l to western troops with this I hope the chief sir sees this post one of our units with these could deal with any Afghans and blow their torkham posts with scars grenade launcher
> 
> Would officers be allowed to buy guns for personal use if scar gives fn gives us tot


I've said it a million times, Pakistan will not being buying millions of rifles right from the beginning. Rifles aren't like fighters or tanks, you can buy them in smaller, cheaper batches, and in longer terms.

The only issue Pakistan will have is being able to buy the tot and being able to pay for the manufacturing plants at POF, which it probably already plans to do.



Super Falcon said:


> HK 417 SHOULD BEEN INCLUDED can be toughest contender and hard to neglect diversity which HK 417 gives in battlefield
> 
> View attachment 320072
> View attachment 320073
> View attachment 320074


Pakistan sent in a request for hk's participation, HK didn't respond...at least that's what the general belief is.



Army research said:


> Why don't we have it
> I mean thus will improve our boys survival rate Alot


It's a competition, may the best rifle win, and it seems like the ARX, SCAR and the Bren are on top of the list.



Quwa said:


> One problem with the new designs - i.e. SCAR, CZ, ARX, etc - is that they're too new. In the world of rifles, 5 years worth of combat experience - while a lot - pales in comparison to the market, which is flush with designs packing decades of usage, improvements, feedback, etc. Even some new designs, e.g. HK-416/417, are essentially late model iterations of the older AR-15 platform. If the PA does this responsibly, we're not going to see a "final" decision for some quite time, though I do think we may actually see multiple types bought in 1K+ batches for mass comparative testing, feedback, iterative improvements, etc.


This.

While 1K+ seems a bit much, elite army and special forces units will likely get their hands on the top rifles that PA is thinking about. Those will likely be field tested against insurgents, and/or in live fire exercises.

Personally, I still think ARX has the best chance of winning. The SCAR price per system is far too much, and the Bren probably doesn't have the confidence of the PA. ARX hits that sweet spot between being a high end gun with a high end price, but being cheaper than the SCAR.

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## Zarvan

That Guy said:


> I've said it a million times, Pakistan will not being buying millions of rifles right from the beginning. Rifles aren't like fighters or tanks, you can buy them in smaller, cheaper batches, and in longer terms.
> 
> The only issue Pakistan will have is being able to buy the tot and being able to pay for the manufacturing plants at POF, which it probably already plans to do.
> 
> 
> Pakistan sent in a request for hk's participation, HK didn't respond...at least that's what the general belief is.
> 
> 
> It's a competition, may the best rifle win, and it seems like the ARX, SCAR and the Bren are on top of the list.
> 
> 
> This.
> 
> While 1K+ seems a bit much, elite army and special forces units will likely get their hands on the top rifles that PA is thinking about. Those will likely be field tested against insurgents, and/or in live fire exercises.
> 
> Personally, I still think ARX has the best chance of winning. The SCAR price per system is far too much, and the Bren probably doesn't have the confidence of the PA. ARX hits that sweet spot between being a high end gun with a high end price, but being cheaper than the SCAR.


SCAR is leading and leading massively than and than is AK-103. Berreta is not even in top 3. As for price I told you before we wouldn't have tested 3 most expensive Guns if we didn't had money. Secondly starting production at POF will take sometime therefore first large order will come from company itself.


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## Zarvan




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## TheConquerer

Zarvan said:


> SCAR is leading and leading massively than and than is AK-103. Berreta is not even in top 3. As for price I told you before we wouldn't have tested 3 most expensive Guns if we didn't had money. Secondly starting production at POF will take sometime therefore first large order will come from company itself.



which ones are in top 3?


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## Zarvan

TheConquerer said:


> which ones are in top 3?


Most sources suggest that FN SCAR is leading the trials than comes AK-103. SCAR offers different calibers as well as TOT and few other things.

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## Path-Finder

TheConquerer said:


> which ones are in top 3?


That is a biased opinion until we have official conformation!

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## Army research

That Guy said:


> I've said it a million times, Pakistan will not being buying millions of rifles right from the beginning. Rifles aren't like fighters or tanks, you can buy them in smaller, cheaper batches, and in longer terms.
> 
> The only issue Pakistan will have is being able to buy the tot and being able to pay for the manufacturing plants at POF, which it probably already plans to do.
> 
> 
> Pakistan sent in a request for hk's participation, HK didn't respond...at least that's what the general belief is.
> 
> 
> It's a competition, may the best rifle win, and it seems like the ARX, SCAR and the Bren are on top of the list.
> 
> 
> This.
> 
> While 1K+ seems a bit much, elite army and special forces units will likely get their hands on the top rifles that PA is thinking about. Those will likely be field tested against insurgents, and/or in live fire exercises.
> 
> Personally, I still think ARX has the best chance of winning. The SCAR price per system is far too much, and the Bren probably doesn't have the confidence of the PA. ARX hits that sweet spot between being a high end gun with a high end price, but being cheaper than the SCAR.


 mate I meant after 10 years of buying it when entire front line force is quipped with it

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## That Guy

Army research said:


> mate I meant after 10 years of buying it when entire front line force is quipped with it


To be fair, you didn't make that clear.

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## Zarvan




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## Amaa'n

MPT - 76 (51 N round) is in the trails -- will try to get the updates on the performance ---- SCAR H has become more like a benchmark in the competition now ----

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## Zarvan

balixd said:


> MPT - 76 (51 N round) is in the trails -- will try to get the updates on the performance ---- SCAR H has become more like a benchmark in the competition now ----


I know that Sir the Gun on extreme right is MPT-76 




@balixd what do you mean by benchmark ???? Is it still part of the trials or not ? I mean SCAR H


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## Amaa'n

Zarvan said:


> I know that Sir the Gun on extreme right is MPT-76
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @balixd what do you mean by benchmark ???? Is it still part of the trials or not ? I mean SCAR H


it is part of the trail but has become a benchmark - you will compare the performance of other weapons with this ---- don't forget there are other factors are play then just performance

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## Zarvan

balixd said:


> it is part of the trail but has become a benchmark - you will compare the performance of other weapons with this ---- don't forget there are other factors are play then just performance


I am hoping for the best. At least they should select FN SCAR and start producing them can select one other Gun also. But SCAR should come at all costs. By they way can we hear about the winner in this year IDEAS or Guns will go in trials for another winter ?


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## denel

Let see what comes out. I still favour G3 in a lighter frame. Has there been a decision to go 5.56 or remain with 7.62 nato;


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## Zarvan

denel said:


> Let see what comes out. I still favour G3 in a lighter frame. Has there been a decision to go 5.56 or remain with 7.62 nato;


We would remain with 7.62


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## denel

Zarvan said:


> We would remain with 7.62


very wise decision - I wont be surprised if it went back to a upgraded G3. When we went from FN to Galil/R4 5.56mm it was an interesting experience but our conditions are very different - it is closer range with bushes - 5.56mm was good but Rhodesian experience was opposite - 7.62 FN was more better suited..


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## SSGcommandoPAK

Scar <3

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## Zarvan

YousufSSG said:


> Scar <3


SCAR is a total beast and leading as expected but a friend told me that Pakistan may opt for only SCAR H as for SCAR L Pakistan may prefer AK-103 over that. Although I would love to see Pakistan producing all SCAR versions. @balixd

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## alikhan03889

denel said:


> very wise decision - I wont be surprised if it went back to a upgraded G3. When we went from FN to Galil/R4 5.56mm it was an interesting experience but our conditions are very different - it is closer range with bushes - 5.56mm was good but Rhodesian experience was opposite - 7.62 FN was more better suited..



m


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## Quwa

The Turkish Army bought a batch of 15,000 MPT-76s for $1200 a unit. @Arsalan I'd reckon a POF build of the MPT-76 with an imported red dot sight could come in for $1500/unit.

http://www.janes.com/article/56695/turkey-orders-more-mpt-76-service-rifles

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## RAMPAGE

Quwa said:


> The Turkish Army bought a batch of 15,000 MPT-76s for $1200 a unit. @Arsalan I'd reckon a POF build of the MPT-76 with an imported red dot sight could come in for $1500/unit.
> 
> http://www.janes.com/article/56695/turkey-orders-more-mpt-76-service-rifles


Have you guys checked out the Maprolight MOR (sight plus IR laser) in service with IDF and Indian SFs?
















Tch Aha! 

@Zarvan @Arsalan

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## Arsalan

Quwa said:


> The Turkish Army bought a batch of 15,000 MPT-76s for $1200 a unit. @Arsalan I'd reckon a POF build of the MPT-76 with an imported red dot sight could come in for $1500/unit.
> 
> http://www.janes.com/article/56695/turkey-orders-more-mpt-76-service-rifles


Sir i think with local manufacturing we will be able to bring down th costs considerably. However those sights wont come cheap and from what i can tell we are not going to make them a standard issue in near future, meaning, we wont be procuring around 500000 of them and thus wont be getting our private sector involved. Unless that changes importing those sights in small batches numbers will be the way to go and that will be quite expensive. However please note that these additional costs are to be present no matter which gun we choose. Overall however with MPT76 i think it the figures 1200$ for the Turkish procurement are right and it is without sights then yes we may be able to bring it to 1500 $ WITH SIGHTS!! 
I am not sure how good the Turkish MPT-76 actually is and also if that will be the top scorer in the after sales services and side benefits analysis. (for example, i do not see us exporting MPT-76 as Turkey will be keen to do that themselves). 

From what i have come to know, the field trials will actually be covering 50% scores in determining which gun is selected. The rest of 50% are OTHER things other then performance. For me, it is an excellent and a very very sensible move indeed.

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## RAMPAGE

Arsalan said:


> Sir i think with local manufacturing we will be able to bring down th costs considerably. However those sights wont come cheap and from what i can tell we are not going to make them a standard issue in near future, meaning, we wont be procuring around 500000 of them and thus wont be getting our private sector involved. Unless that changes importing those sights in small batches numbers will be the way to go and that will be quite expensive. However please note that these additional costs are to be present no matter which gun we choose. Overall however with MPT76 i think it the figures 1200$ for the Turkish procurement are right and it is without sights then yes we may be able to bring it to 1500 $ WITH SIGHTS!!
> I am not sure how good the Turkish MPT-76 actually is and also if that will be the top scorer in the after sales services and side benefits analysis. (for example, i do not see us exporting MPT-76 as Turkey will be keen to do that themselves).
> 
> From what i have come to know, the field trials will actually be covering 50% scores in determining which gun is selected. The rest of 50% are OTHER things other then performance. For me, it is an excellent and a very very sensible move indeed.


It would be a shame if they don't standardize sights with the new rifle. Offers a very significant improvement and absolutely worth the money.


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## Zarvan

If they are not ready to select the best Gun because of money than they should have not started trials in first place. Instead they should have focused on G3. As for scopes I think more and more soldiers now carry scope and hope soon all law enforcement people will use scopes and all the time


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## RAMPAGE

@Quwa @Horus

Here's a thought, might be nothing but why don't you guys get in touch with Shibli Electronics and do an interview of sorts. Discuss future plans etcetera. The possibilities are endless for those guys. From weapon sights, NVGs, reconnaissance sights, laser designators, armoured vehicle/MBT sights, FLIRs, IRSTs, targeting pods and seekers etc.

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## Arsalan

RAMPAGE said:


> It would be a shame if they don't standardize sights with the new rifle. Offers a very significant improvement and absolutely worth the money.


I agree with you on this. 



Zarvan said:


> If they are not ready to select the best Gun because of money than they should have not started trials in first place. Instead they should have focused on G3. As for scopes I think more and more soldiers now carry scope and hope soon all law enforcement people will use scopes and all the time


The problems with "shoulds" is, everyone seem to have a bag full of his/her own!!


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## Amaa'n

If our selfie commando is going to be at Ghazi base this eid - i am hopeful to get my hands on SCAR & Bren ---- I already missed an opportunity last eid ul fitr when my gang visited Cherat --- they managed to fire FN Minimi and all other weapons in the SSG arsenal ---- Trip to Ghazi base is due on Eid Ul Azha so fingers crossed ----



RAMPAGE said:


> @Quwa @Horus
> 
> Here's a thought, might be nothing but why don't you guys get in touch with Shibli Electronics and do an interview of sorts. Discuss future plans etcetera. The possibilities are endless for those guys. From weapon sights, NVGs, reconnaissance sights, laser designators, armoured vehicle/MBT sights, FLIRs, IRSTs, targeting pods and seekers etc.


pehle bandooq tu select karlo bhai durbeen baadh mein dekhna



Zarvan said:


> If they are not ready to select the best Gun because of money than they should have not started trials in first place. Instead they should have focused on G3. As for scopes I think more and more soldiers now carry scope and hope soon all law enforcement people will use scopes and all the time


PoF is already on good terms with Turkey, their weapons are in the hands of Pakistan army ---- POF is importing weapons including Shotgun & Handguns from Sarsilmaz,
We are procuring T-129 Heli from them --- the focus is to form an Islamic front ---- enlighten me what is going to stop them from going with MPT-76???? we have emphasized greatly on Defense cooperation ----
Same stands correct for CZ ---- their weapons are world class & battle proven, they will offer good on TOT & Per unit price----- why are we going to buy SCAR and not Bren???

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## Zarvan

balixd said:


> If our selfie commando is going to be at Ghazi base this eid - i am hopeful to get my hands on SCAR & Bren ---- I already missed an opportunity last eid ul fitr when my gang visited Cherat --- they managed to fire FN Minimi and all other weapons in the SSG arsenal ---- Trip to Ghazi base is due on Eid Ul Azha so fingers crossed ----
> 
> 
> pehle bandooq tu select karlo bhai durbeen baadh mein dekhna
> 
> 
> PoF is already on good terms with Turkey, their weapons are in the hands of Pakistan army ---- POF is importing weapons including Shotgun & Handguns from Sarsilmaz,
> We are procuring T-129 Heli from them --- the focus is to form an Islamic front ---- enlighten me what is going to stop them from going with MPT-76???? we have emphasized greatly on Defense cooperation ----
> Same stands correct for CZ ---- their weapons are world class & battle proven, they will offer good on TOT & Per unit price----- why are we going to buy SCAR and not Bren???


I have no issue with any Gun as long as it comes 1st in field tests. What I am saying is Pakistan should have arranged the money first before starting trials and than only standard for selecting Gun be the performance in trials and different conditions. Selecting second best or third best Gun will be dishonesty towards soldiers @balixd


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## Quwa

balixd said:


> If our selfie commando is going to be at Ghazi base this eid - i am hopeful to get my hands on SCAR & Bren ---- I already missed an opportunity last eid ul fitr when my gang visited Cherat --- they managed to fire FN Minimi and all other weapons in the SSG arsenal ---- Trip to Ghazi base is due on Eid Ul Azha so fingers crossed ----
> 
> 
> pehle bandooq tu select karlo bhai durbeen baadh mein dekhna
> 
> 
> PoF is already on good terms with Turkey, their weapons are in the hands of Pakistan army ---- POF is importing weapons including Shotgun & Handguns from Sarsilmaz,
> We are procuring T-129 Heli from them --- the focus is to form an Islamic front ---- enlighten me what is going to stop them from going with MPT-76???? we have emphasized greatly on Defense cooperation ----
> Same stands correct for CZ ---- their weapons are world class & battle proven, they will offer good on TOT & Per unit price----- why are we going to buy SCAR and not Bren???


Out of curiosity, how is CZ doing in the trials?


----------



## fitpOsitive

RAMPAGE said:


> Have you guys checked out the Maprolight MOR (sight plus IR laser) in service with IDF and Indian SFs?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tch Aha!
> 
> @Zarvan @Arsalan


hm..well that certainly lethal


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## Amaa'n

Quwa said:


> Out of curiosity, how is CZ doing in the trials?


since i am not in direct contact with person involved in Trails anymore so cannot say for sure, because i myself don't trust the words i hear in Army whatsapp groups ----- last i heard it was said it is performing good but nothing as compared to ARX & SCAR

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## Zarvan

balixd said:


> since i am not in direct contact with person involved in Trails anymore so cannot say for sure, because i myself don't trust the words i hear in Army whatsapp groups ----- last i heard it was said it is performing good but nothing as compared to ARX & SCAR


I have a group in facebook where I asked few people to contact those in trials. One of them has family friend a Major who is part of trials he told that SCAR H is massively leading but Pakistan may opt for only one version of SCAR H as for 7.62 x 39 AK-103 is being preferred. Don't know about other Guns. Two other friends also told same thing.


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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> I have a group in facebook where I asked few people to contact those in trials. One of them has family friend a Major who is part of trials he told that SCAR H is massively leading but Pakistan may opt for only one version of SCAR H as for 7.62 x 39 AK-103 is being preferred. Don't know about other Guns. Two other friends also told same thing.


Good of you to confirm the sources of those claims. Will let people know how much they can actually rely on that! 

I never have objected to you supporting SCAR, i have always talked against the REASONS you give! 

Citing Facebook as a source is a bit ridiculous if you ask me. 
People will go on and say ANYTHING.


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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> Good of you to confirm the sources of those claims. Will let people know how much they can actually rely on that!
> 
> I never have objected to you supporting SCAR, i have always talked against the REASONS you give!
> 
> Citing Facebook as a source is a bit ridiculous if you ask me.
> People will go on and say ANYTHING.


The source are Major in Army and one is part of trials


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## Amaa'n

Zarvan said:


> The source are Major in Army and one is part of trials


Zarvan, just to bring it to your knowledge every Fauji these days is like a Wifi repeater ---- all of the LC (Long Course) colleagues have a Whatsapp group --- then they have a group for their Unit, then they have a group for the area they have been deployed to, then they have a group of other people they meet & greet at places ----- so basically non of these are reliable ----- I can tell you that all groups I have seen share the same story & reality is non of them actually have direct connection with the trail ---- messages are just jumping from one group to the other ----- every few days I receive terror alerts which are supposedly from NACTA / NCMC / Interior Ministry --- but no one really knows the authenticity of these ------
So do not base your views on these hearsay 
I was pointed towards a Captain who was directly involved in trails --- but I personally found it a bit childish to text someone asking whats the stat of Trails ----

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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> The source are Major in Army and one is part of trials


Have he shown you his service card? 
Dont be ridiculous Zarvan. How can you just choose to trust anything being said on facebook brother by anyone who can claims to be anything!!! 
What is your Facebook ID? I will send you a message as Gen Raheel Sharif confirming you that we have selected this:








balixd said:


> Zarvan, just to bring it to your knowledge every Fauji these days is like a Wifi repeater ---- all of the LC (Long Course) colleagues have a Whatsapp group --- then they have a group for their Unit, then they have a group for the area they have been deployed to, then they have a group of other people they meet & greet at places ----- so basically non of these are reliable ----- I can tell you that all groups I have seen share the same story & reality is non of them actually have direct connection with the trail ---- messages are just jumping from one group to the other ----- every few days I receive terror alerts which are supposedly from NACTA / NCMC / Interior Ministry --- but no one really knows the authenticity of these ------
> So do not base your views on these hearsay
> I was pointed towards a Captain who was directly involved in trails --- but I personally found it a bit childish to text someone asking whats the stat of Trails ----


Oh thanks bro!
Thanks a LOT!!!


One important thing to point out here is that among so many groups and so many members in those groups, there is bound to be one or two messages which eventually turn out to be true. However i am not sure how big of an achievement should that be considered as.

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## Amaa'n

Arsalan said:


> Oh thanks bro!
> Thanks a LOT!!!
> 
> 
> One important thing to point out here is that among so many groups and so many members in those groups, there is bound to be one or two messages which eventually turn out to be true. However i am not sure how big of an achievement should that be considered as.


with all due respect to our Brothers in Arms ---- huge respect for men who fight for us, but these Kids in Post 126LC are really taking it to the edge ---- they are on Instagram / Snapchat taking selfies for girls as if they have joined a modeling agency ----- GHQ is not happy about this

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## Arsalan

balixd said:


> with all due respect to our Brothers in Arms ---- huge respect for men who fight for us, but these Kids in Post 126LC are really taking it to the edge ---- they are on Instagram / Snapchat taking selfies for girls as if they have joined a modeling agency ----- GHQ is not happy about this


They SHOULD not be happy about this. Army is among the most professional institutes in Pakistan and such attitude is not as per the high held traditions of the forces. I hope there is some action making sure that this trend stops. We have discussed this with many concerned people and no one seem to be happy about it but the fanboys who think they are now getting very authentic inside information.

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## Zarvan

balixd said:


> Zarvan, just to bring it to your knowledge every Fauji these days is like a Wifi repeater ---- all of the LC (Long Course) colleagues have a Whatsapp group --- then they have a group for their Unit, then they have a group for the area they have been deployed to, then they have a group of other people they meet & greet at places ----- so basically non of these are reliable ----- I can tell you that all groups I have seen share the same story & reality is non of them actually have direct connection with the trail ---- messages are just jumping from one group to the other ----- every few days I receive terror alerts which are supposedly from NACTA / NCMC / Interior Ministry --- but no one really knows the authenticity of these ------
> So do not base your views on these hearsay
> I was pointed towards a Captain who was directly involved in trails --- but I personally found it a bit childish to text someone asking whats the stat of Trails ----


Sir I also tried few other soldiers they had no clue about Gun trials but these guys had. By the way I also heard that Special Forces are also testing AK-105. And as for your question which you asked me about why not Turkish MPT-76 or BREN. Well my answer is that Pakistan should have arranged the money before if they haven't and than tested Guns and selection should be done only on bases of which ever Gun gives best performance in fields. Lastly for selfies GHQ needs to control that because many are not only childish and idiotic but are also security risk.

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## RAMPAGE

@T-123456 @Sinan @cabatli_53 

Please confirm that the MPT-76 has a free floating barrel? I cannot tell from the pictures and videos. Also, Is the front isn't connected with the handguard, is it?

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## cabatli_53

RAMPAGE said:


> @T-123456 @Sinan @cabatli_53
> 
> Please confirm that the MPT-76 has a free floating barrel? I cannot tell from the pictures and videos. Also, Is the front isn't connected with the handguard, is it?




I think You can find all answers that you need in that video.

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## RAMPAGE

T-123456 said:


> Im not the one to ask but maybe this will help,
> 
> The Turkish MPT-76 is chambered in 7.62 NATO and it will be replacing G3 as the main staple in the Turkish military. The rifle weights
> 
> in at 9.2 lb with a 406mm cold hammer forged barrel that has a projected life of 12,000 rounds.* It has a forged aluminum receiver construction with a free floating handguard that is held to the barrel nut by a cross bolt*. It is claimed that the rifle has passed testings based on the US Small arms testing protocols in TOP-3-2-045, which include cold test, ice test…etc.
> 
> Mechanically, MPT-76 runs on a multi-lug bolt arrangement of the Stoner variety. The cycling is operated by a short stroke push rod system. The push rod is not spring loaded and is pushed back by the bolt carrier in the return stroke. To disassemble the gas system, an allen key is needed to unscrew the gas regulator to release the push rod through the front.
> 
> Another interesting feature is the stock. It is not a lever-button arrangement as seen in typical AR15. The extension has a series of teeth like a rail. The user has to rotate the stock to move it out of the toothed lock-out position, and then move and rotate the stock to the next lock-out position.





cabatli_53 said:


> I think You can find all answers that you need in that video.



Thanks guys. This picture answers my question. The front iron sight is apparently attached to the gas block. It appears that it is indeed free floated.

Very remarkable rifle.


----------



## cabatli_53

MPT 5,56mm and MPT 7,62mm on same image !

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## Zarvan

cabatli_53 said:


> MPT 5,56mm and MPT 7,62mm on same image !


@Sulman Badshah @Tipu7 Check it out guys

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## That Guy

balixd said:


> MPT - 76 (51 N round) is in the trails -- will try to get the updates on the performance ----* SCAR H has become more like a benchmark in the competition now* ----


I expect this would be the case.


----------



## farhan_9909

Buss kuch hi maheenay hain,Aik baat andar chala gya toh seniors se puch kr updates dunga

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## Zarvan

@balixd Some people are hell bent on turning me crazy. The guy who shared the pic with me of Guns in trials is now claiming Bushmaster M4 and SCAR are in final phase and one of them would be selected. He has house near ranges and he often talks to officers. @Arsalan


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> @balixd Some people are hell bent on turning me crazy. The guy who shared the pic with me of Guns in trials is now claiming Bushmaster M4 and SCAR are in final phase and one of them would be selected. He has house near ranges and he often talks to officers. @Arsalan


admitting that you are crazy is the first step in seeking help! maybe it is time to stop the obsession over the SCAR and return to normality.


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> admitting that you are crazy is the first step in seeking help! maybe it is time to stop the obsession over the SCAR and return to normality.


Bro the friend who gave me the picture and this information hates SCAR but admits SCAR is performing best in trials although he is supporter of MPT-76. I am not supurised about SCAR leading my question is about M4 being in trials. Sorry but SCAR is leading the trials and it's reality not my obsession

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## RAMPAGE

Zarvan said:


> Bro the friend who gave me the picture and this information hates SCAR but admits SCAR is performing best in trials although he is supporter of MPT-76. I am not supurised about SCAR leading my question is about M4 being in trials. Sorry but SCAR is leading the trials and it's reality not my obsession


M4 is 5.56 not 7.62 NATO.


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## Zarvan

RAMPAGE said:


> M4 is 5.56 not 7.62 NATO.


They have been developing one 7.62 X 39 version


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## RAMPAGE

Zarvan said:


> They have been developing one 7.62 X 39 version


They already have ACR 556 which has a 7.62 papa called Magpul Massoud. Why not simply send that.

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## Zarvan

RAMPAGE said:


> They already have ACR 556 which has a 7.62 papa called Magpul Massoud. Why not simply send that.


No idea I don't fully trust that guy but after he send me that picture which I posted I can't take him lightly so I am stuck.
By the way check this video


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Bro the friend who gave me the picture and this information hates SCAR but admits SCAR is performing best in trials although he is supporter of MPT-76. I am not supurised about SCAR leading my question is about M4 being in trials. Sorry but SCAR is leading the trials and it's reality not my obsession


the last 126 pages are a obsession for SCAR! Now its better to be patient and find out the results than being satisfied with false hope.


----------



## RAMPAGE

Side by side comparison.

Magar G3, G3 hai!  That thing has class.

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## Paksanity

RAMPAGE said:


> Magar G3, G3 hai!  That thing has class.



You just ruined "*his*" day!

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## Zarvan

RAMPAGE said:


> Side by side comparison.
> 
> Magar G3, G3 hai!  That thing has class.


When it comes to accuracy. Well answer is HELL YEAH !!!!!


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## Max Pain

I believe even after selection of a standard rifle The G3 might remain here as a DMR,
its very accurate and would handsomely fill the duty of a DMR.
Soldiers already are familiar with it.

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## Zarvan

Max Pain said:


> I believe even after selection of a standard rifle The G3 might remain here as a DMR,
> its very accurate and would handsomely fill the duty of a DMR.
> Soldiers already are familiar with it.


Quite possible but still we need few more modern DMR. Secondly it's time we start working on getting new advance optics and giving them to every soldier

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## Max Pain

Zarvan said:


> Quite possible but still we need few more modern DMR. Secondly it's time we start working on getting new advance optics and giving them to every soldier


if Scar is selected then surely we'll have its DMR version too but the cost effective and correct option would be to utilize the existing G3's and modify them as DMR's,
The standard rifles will be complimented by any accurate DMR like G3.

for Optics its better for the gov to just invest in institutes like Shibli Electronics that actually do make sights.
that'll boost the localization as well as do the job for em.

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## Zarvan

Max Pain said:


> if Scar is selected then surely we'll have its DMR version too but the cost effective and correct option would be to utilize the existing G3's and modify them as DMR's,
> The standard rifles will be complimented by any accurate DMR like G3.
> 
> for Optics its better for the gov to just invest in institutes like Shibli Electronics that actually do make sights.
> that'll boost the localization as well as do the job for em.


Yes Shilbi is doing great job. We can also get modern optics from Turkish companies. @T-123456 @cabatli_53 @



RAMPAGE said:


> They already have ACR 556 which has a 7.62 papa called Magpul Massoud. Why not simply send that.


I agree Pakistan should test this and also new 
COLT 901


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## Zarvan




----------



## Super Falcon

I think old G 3 goes to police elite police

Scar is the only option left



Arsalan said:


> Have he shown you his service card?
> Dont be ridiculous Zarvan. How can you just choose to trust anything being said on facebook brother by anyone who can claims to be anything!!!
> What is your Facebook ID? I will send you a message as Gen Raheel Sharif confirming you that we have selected this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh thanks bro!
> Thanks a LOT!!!
> 
> 
> One important thing to point out here is that among so many groups and so many members in those groups, there is bound to be one or two messages which eventually turn out to be true. However i am not sure how big of an achievement should that be considered as.


Haha 

Gen raheel please stop thrashing my friend zaarvan very funny haha

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## Zarvan



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## Zarvan



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## Zarvan



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## Zarvan

AVCI 1-4X #3eeos #jöh #pöh #ökk #avcı #tsk #yerli #combat #military #tactical #mpt76 #mpt56 #hk416 #hk417 #komando #dag2 #dag #mak #keskin #camo #gear #hunter #daysight #optics

I hope which ever Gun is selected this kind of Optics are also made standard issue for Armed Forces and Police

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## Zarvan

Specifications: - Caliber: 7.62 mm NATO - Barrel: 16.1 inches - OA Length: 34.24-37.5 inches - Weight: 8.8 pounds - Stock: Collapsible - Sights: Flip-up front and rear - Action: Direct impingement semi-auto - Finish: Hardcoat anodized black - Capacity: 20+1 - MSRP: $2,544


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## Super Falcon

Colt is not needed we need even better scar or HK 416


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## dr_jawwad71

One question always makes me curious that why Heckler & Koche did not develop heavier version of G36? A G3 with short stroke gas system could be more easier choice of G3 user countries.


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## Path-Finder

dr_jawwad71 said:


> One question always makes me curious that why Heckler & Koche did not develop heavier version of G36? A G3 with short stroke gas system could be more easier choice of G3 user countries.


G36 had serious issues and flaws especially with the thermal properties of the polymer used it could not with stand the heat. thus 416 & 417 was developed.

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## dr_jawwad71

Path-Finder said:


> G36 had serious issues and flaws especially with the thermal properties of the polymer used it could not with stand the heat. thus 416 & 417 was developed.



How can a man with right mind believe that? 
416 and 417 project is a quite different story and was based upon needs of American special forces.


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## Zarvan

Super Falcon said:


> Colt is not needed we need even better scar or HK 416


I am thinking something else for past 3 days. Even if we select SCAR and produce all the versions still we have massive Army and Navy + Marines and Air Force and Para Military and finally Police and most probably we are going to increase their size in near future so with this size force even SCAR with all its versions won't be enough. Pakistan needs to have two or three different Multi Caliber Guns like all versions of SCAR and HK 417 and HK 416 or 7.62 and 5.56 versions of Berreta or SiG or this new Colt 901 which is available in 7.62 X 51 and 7.62 X 39 and 5.56 X 45. We need at least two of these series with TOT. One SCAR or Berreta or HK can't meet our needs. We are not France or Germany I mean when it comes to size of forces @balixd @Horus @Arsalan 



dr_jawwad71 said:


> How can a man with right mind believe that?
> 416 and 417 project is a quite different story and was based upon needs of American special forces.


G36 is a disaster with serious issues in hot environment


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## Path-Finder

dr_jawwad71 said:


> How can a man with right mind believe that?
> 416 and 417 project is a quite different story and was based upon needs of American special forces.


then man with the right mind give a better reason?


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## Super Falcon

Zarvan said:


> I am thinking something else for past 3 days. Even if we select SCAR and produce all the versions still we have massive Army and Navy + Marines and Air Force and Para Military and finally Police and most probably we are going to increase their size in near future so with this size force even SCAR with all its versions won't be enough. Pakistan needs to have two or three different Multi Caliber Guns like all versions of SCAR and HK 417 and HK 416 or 7.62 and 5.56 versions of Berreta or SiG or this new Colt 901 which is available in 7.62 X 51 and 7.62 X 39 and 5.56 X 45. We need at least two of these series with TOT. One SCAR or Berreta or HK can't meet our needs. We are not France or Germany I mean when it comes to size of forces @balixd @Horus @Arsalan
> 
> 
> G36 is a disaster with serious issues in hot environment


Don't forget MP 5 is aging too we need to replace it right now stick with Scar and than MP 7 would do wonders for pakistan


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## Zarvan

Super Falcon said:


> Don't forget MP 5 is aging too we need to replace it right now stick with Scar and than MP 7 would do wonders for pakistan


Yes for now SCAR with all its versions should come but soon we should try to get one other series probably HK 417 and 416 or SIG or COLT 901


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## Super Falcon

HK 416 is far better than Colt I would say get HK 416 and scar H

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## RAMPAGE

Zarvan said:


> I am thinking something else for past 3 days. Even if we select SCAR and produce all the versions still we have massive Army and Navy + Marines and Air Force and Para Military and finally Police and most probably we are going to increase their size in near future so with this size force even SCAR with all its versions won't be enough. Pakistan needs to have two or three different Multi Caliber Guns like all versions of SCAR and HK 417 and HK 416 or 7.62 and 5.56 versions of Berreta or SiG or this new Colt 901 which is available in 7.62 X 51 and 7.62 X 39 and 5.56 X 45. We need at least two of these series with TOT. One SCAR or Berreta or HK can't meet our needs. We are not France or Germany I mean when it comes to size of forces @balixd @Horus @Arsalan
> 
> 
> G36 is a disaster with serious issues in hot environment

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## Zarvan

RAMPAGE said:


>


Stop posting stupid pictures and answer the question. No matter How good a Gun is it's impossible to equip 2.5 million force with same Gun or not to have two to three different Guns in Arsenal

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## Thorough Pro

You don't equip the whole army in one day or one go, you do it piece by piece starting from your elite strike units and working your way down slowly over a decade or so depending on their role and needs. one platform is always preferable as it is easy to manufacture, maintain, repair and train. Special units however always select the weapons or combination of weapons on their operational needs.




Zarvan said:


> Stop posting stupid pictures and answer the question. No matter How good a Gun is it's impossible to equip 2.5 million force with same Gun or not to have two to three different Guns in Arsenal


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## muhammadali233

What was Pakistan first Assault/Battle Rifle which was later replaced by G3?
And how much time it took?
Was .303 our first rifle?Lee Enfield?


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## dr_jawwad71

Path-Finder said:


> then man with the right mind give a better reason?



The whole thing began in 2014 deployment of German soldier in Afghanistan. Where these compalins of malfunctions first time heard. Keeping the record of G36 from early nineties and standard of manufacturer in the mind these complains sounds fishy in first place. Also independant sources do not confirm these accusations. Most German believed that corporate conspiracy is behind these complains.


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## Path-Finder

dr_jawwad71 said:


> The whole thing began in 2014 deployment of German soldier in Afghanistan. Where these compalins of malfunctions first time heard. Keeping the record of G36 from early nineties and standard of manufacturer in the mind these complains sounds fishy in first place. Also independant sources do not confirm these accusations. Most German believed that corporate conspiracy is behind these complains.


so you knew such info and yet asked? 

http://www.dw.com/en/heckler-koch-g36-the-rifle-held-in-all-the-wrong-places/a-18402772
http://www.dw.com/en/german-defense-minister-says-no-future-for-g36-rifles-in-bundeswehr/a-18399209


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## dr_jawwad71

Unfort


Path-Finder said:


> so you knew such info and yet asked?
> 
> http://www.dw.com/en/heckler-koch-g36-the-rifle-held-in-all-the-wrong-places/a-18402772
> http://www.dw.com/en/german-defense-minister-says-no-future-for-g36-rifles-in-bundeswehr/a-18399209



Unfortunately I am not privileged to share the links showing stress tests of G36 which proves that claims against G36 are not right.


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## Path-Finder

dr_jawwad71 said:


> Unfort
> 
> 
> Unfortunately I am not privileged to share the links showing stress tests of G36 which proves that claims against G36 are not right.


hmmn...... what do you say to G36 no longer has a future in the German armed forces? and being phased out by 2019!

http://www.thelocal.de/20150908/army-rifle-to-be-scrapped-due-to-accuracy-problems


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> hmmn...... what do you say to G36 no longer has a future in the German armed forces? and being phased out by 2019!
> 
> http://www.thelocal.de/20150908/army-rifle-to-be-scrapped-due-to-accuracy-problems


HK had done case against German Army on issue of G36. Also Saudis uses G36 in most hot enviorment we should ask them


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## Thorough Pro

I think it goes like this 
1947 - 1967 Le-Enfield no 4
1956 - 1967 M1 Garand
1967 - Present H&K G3



muhammadali233 said:


> What was Pakistan first Assault/Battle Rifle which was later replaced by G3?
> And how much time it took?
> Was .303 our first rifle?Lee Enfield?

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## Zarvan

Thorough Pro said:


> I think it goes like this
> 1947 - 1967 Le-Enfield no 4
> 1956 - 1967 M1 Garand
> 1967 - Present H&K G3


Almost for 49 years G3 have served us. Dam that is way too long.


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## muhammadali233

Thorough Pro said:


> I think it goes like this
> 1947 - 1967 Le-Enfield no 4
> 1956 - 1967 M1 Garand
> 1967 - Present H&K G3


Some Pics of 65 war suggest G3 was in fact somewhat operational

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## Zarvan

muhammadali233 said:


> Some Pics of 65 war suggest G3 was in fact somewhat operational


If true that it makes G3 a 50 year old Gun for us. Well its definitely time to rest this beast and go for younger one. It has done us great service.

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## Zarvan

@Arsalan @balixd @Horus @Path-Finder @RAMPAGE @Oscar

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## muhammadali233

Zarvan said:


>


Scar H?
Is that M21 in the backdrop?


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## Zarvan

muhammadali233 said:


> Scar H?
> Is that M21 in the backdrop?


No the Gun in standing position is AK-103 and the Gun in lying position is ACR


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## RAMPAGE

Zarvan said:


> the Gun in lying position is ACR


So it is indeed here. Any more pics of ACR?


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## Zarvan

RAMPAGE said:


> So it is indeed here. Any more pics of ACR?


No bro I didn't even knew that it is ACR it was @Sulman Badshah who told me and this picture was posted in my group by a friend.


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## JPMM

Sorry Zarvan !
http://www.elconfidencialdigital.com/defensa/paracaidistas-Ejercito-Aire-Fusil-SCAR_0_2760923881.html


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## Zarvan

JPMM said:


> Sorry Zarvan !
> http://www.elconfidencialdigital.com/defensa/paracaidistas-Ejercito-Aire-Fusil-SCAR_0_2760923881.html


These guys first need to learn How to carry and fire a Gun


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## JPMM

They do now, many aircraft flying over afganistan "and Pakistan" carring suplies to Afganistan are carring them (if Spanish) and UPF (if Portuguese), they have already replaced G36 for HK416A5 and FN Minimi for MG4 and Mg3 for MG5, their training is supperior to what you imagine and standard on all NATO Air forces. Yes they are Air Force personnel!




PS: I am not on their side, I spent 3 years of my life destroyng bars on Satarday, in Azores Islands fighting against these peace of Sh***. Suckers!!!!

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## Zarvan

JPMM said:


> They do now, many aircraft flying over afganistan "and Pakistan" carring suplies to Afganistan are carring them (if Spanish) and UPF (if Portuguese), they have already replaced G36 for HK416A5 and FN Minimi for MG4 and Mg3 for MG5, their training is supperior to what you imagine and standard on all NATO Air forces. Yes they are Air Force personnel!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PS: I am not on their side, I spent 3 years of my life destroyng bars on Satarday, in Azores Islands fighting against these peace of Sh***. Suckers!!!!


SCAR in most Gun trials have performed better than other Guns and yes after SCAR I rate HK 416 and 417 as best Rifles in the world. Pakistan's economy sucks otherwise it would be dream cone true to see both SCAR and HK-417 and 416 being produced in Pakistan


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## El Fuego

I cannot agree that SCAR has performed better in most trials. Quite opposite can be truth there are reports of SCAR having serious problems which are not being solved. Just check the Wikipedia : wiki/FN_SCAR
especcially the controversy chapter at the end.


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## Zarvan

El Fuego said:


> I cannot agree that SCAR has performed better in most trials. Quite opposite can be truth there are reports of SCAR having serious problems which are not being solved. Just check the Wikipedia : wiki/FN_SCAR
> especcially the controversy chapter at the end.


SCAR 16 has issues. It wasn't that good as it was expected to be but SCAR 17 totally changed the Game. I think Spain tested SCAR 16 which is 5.56 X 45


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## El Fuego

Zarvan said:


> SCAR 16 has issues. It wasn't that good as it was expected to be but SCAR 17 totally changed the Game. I think Spain tested SCAR 16 which is 5.56 X 45


No not really, for example in Peru there had been cook offs with in service 7,62x51.
Quite dangerous, what I´ve heard, the operators are very disappointed.


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## Zarvan

*Gun Review: SIG SAUER 716 Patrol Rifle*




There’s a debate raging in the AR15 community. The point of contention: operating systems. Traditionalists favor direct impingement. Designed by Eugene Stoner, DI harnesses the power of the gasses trapped in the barrel to cycle the rifle’s action. It’s a remarkably simple system with one critical flaw: the gasses blow directly into the rifle’s upper receiver and bolt carrier. Over time, this leads to a dirty rifle. In a gas piston system the propellant gases push a solid rod that pushes the carrier to the rear. That makes for a cleaner running gun. While the controversy continues, SIG SAUER has covered its bets with their piston-driven 516 and, now, the 716 . . .








The SIG SAUER 516 (top) is chambered in the most popular AR flavor: .223. The 716 (below) steps-up to the plate firing the bigger, badder, more lethal .308 Winchester cartridge. Although the two rifles share many similarities, the 716 isn’t simply a scaled-up version of the 516.





Obviously, the 716’s gas parts and push rod are heavier; beefed-up for use with the heavier .308 cartridge. While the 516 uses Magpul MOE furniture, the 716 ships with the Magpul MIAD pistol grip and ACS buttstock. Both rifles ship with a Magpul magazine in their respective calibers and both rifles ship with a nylon sling and folding backup-type iron sights.





The SIG 716 features a hammerforged barrel with a one-in-ten twist. This relatively fast twist rate works well with most everything available in factory .308, including heavyweight match bullets. To add corrosion resistance and durability, SIG’s chrome-lined the 716’s chamber and bore. The rifle barrel’s threaded in the 5/8-24 pattern; it will accept most aftermarket flash hiders and muzzle brakes.

A free-floating railed handguard—running from the 716’s front sight/gas block to the upper receiver—surrounds the barrel. The handguard is firmly bolted in place. At the same time, it’s easily removable for inspection and cleaning of the barrel’s exterior surfaces.The handguard’s top rail sits flush with the flat upper receiver, creating miles of uninterrupted mounting surface.

The SIG 716 has four gas settings: an off position, a suppressed position, a normal operating position and an overgassed setting. The latter is handy for underpowered ammo or heavily fouling. You can access the gas system’s parts through the front of the gasblock. Unlike some competing piston designs, you don’t have to remove the 716’s rail to clean the gas parts.





The 716’s lower receiver is milled from aluminum with QD sling swivel sockets machined into the left and right sides. The mag release is ambidextrous, but the selector is on the right side only. The buffer tube is behind the carbine length, MILSPEC diameter lower.

The tube’s castle nut is properly staked; it won’t come loose. The rifle’s controls operate smoothly. The selector clicks from SAFE to FIRE as crisply as a well-laundered shirt, with extra starch. While the trigger’s a little on the heavy side (7.6 lbs.), the standard military-type go-pedal breaks cleanly with little over-travel or creep.

The 716’s bolt and carrier are massive chunks of machined steel with the carrier tapering down to standard .223 diameter behind the firing pin retaining pin. This reduced diameter “floats” the carrier in the buffer tube—obviating the need for anti-tilt recoil buffers (to keep the carrier from hitting the bottom of the buffer tube due to carrier tilt).

The .308 Win is an efficient cartridge rightly credited with outstanding accuracy regardless of bullet weight. I fired a number of five-shot groups from 100 yards that hovered in the 1.5″ range. While these groups aren’t acceptable for precision match rifle competiton, they’re more than close enough for a defensive rifle.





In the 716’s defense, I didn’t try a huge selection of match ammo. The rifle might shoot more accurately with some experimentation and a load it really likes. In addition to match ammo from Federal andRemington, I also shot several hundred rounds of steel cased Russian ammo from WOLF and Brown Bear. Steel cased ammo can be problematic in some guns. The SAUER 716 Patrol Rifle gobbled it up with no issues.

I tried the rifle using steel magazines from C Products. The mags fed like pigs at a trough but they didn’t lock into the rifle easily when loaded to their twenty round capacity. Of the four steel magazines tested, one would only accept nineteen rounds.


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## Zarvan

The SIG SAUER 716 will likely make its way into the three-gun competition syndicate as a “Heavy Metal” rifle. This additional power comes with trade-offs. Magazine capacity is generally limited to twenty rounds, and there are only a few companies making compatible mags. At $20 – $25, .308 they’re generally more expensive than their .223 counterparts.





The rifle is also something of a beast. The big SIG tips the scales at nearly 9.5 pounds; two pounds heavier than the SIG 516. While most .308 military-stylemodern sporting rifles are around nine pounds SIG could have put the 716 on a diet. A thinner, re-profiled barrel and different furniture would have shaved off a fair amount of weight.

SIG should also have reconsidered the handguard’s length. Thanks to the 716’s carbine length fore-end, the handguard stops just behind thegas block. If it was long enough to cover the gas block the handguard would add a bit more rail surface for accessories and allow the shooter to assume a more “straight arm” shooting position. It would also cover thegas block, adding a welcome measure of protection against accidental burns.





In short, the SIG 716 is a great gun firing a round that’s ideal for hunting or one-stop stopping. But why bother? Why not buy a cheaper DI .308 AR?

Fooled ya. I’m not going to get caught up in the reliability debate. Let’s just say this: SIG’s piston drive doesn’t make the 716 any _less_ reliable. Yes, it adds a few additional moving parts. But those beefy bits aren’t easily damaged. Any abuse severe enough to render the piston parts inoperable would probably break other more vital parts of the gun, too. And smash a Stoner gas tube, too.

Speaking of broken bits, spare parts for the various piston designs aren’t interchangeable between the various makers. Luckily, major wear parts like extractors aren’t unique to the 716; they can be purchased from any decent parts supplier.





At a not inconsiderable $2,132 (seen on the street for $1700), the SIG SAUER 716 sits below the price range of comparable rifles from ArmaLite, Springfield Armory and DS Arms. If you don’t buy into the Internet piston hate, the SIG 716 is a lot of rifle for the money. You get a clean-running operating system and the ability to reach out and stop someone. What’s not to like?

*SPECIFICATIONS*:

*Caliber:* .308 Winchester
*Barrel:* 16 inches, 1:10 twist
*Weight:* 9.3 lbs.
*Operation:* Short stroke pushrod, rotating bolt
*Finish:* black
*Capacity:* 20 rounds (takes standard SR-25 magazines)
*MSRP:* $2,132

*RATINGS (Out of Five Stars):*

*Accuracy: * * **
1.5 MoA is pretty good, but there are guns that’ll do better. Not necessarily better for less, but still.

*Reliability: * * * * **
Thanks to the pushrod piston system, the 716 gun stays clean and lubed longer after more rounds downrange than the competition.

*Weight: * * * **
Four stars since all pretty much all .308’s are heavy. But this gun is 9.5 pounds empty.

*Handling: * * * **
The controls are good but the gun needs a longer fore-end.

*Overall: * * * 3/4

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/10/melvin-johnson/gun-review-sig-sauer-716-patrol-rifle/

I am posting this review of SIG 716 because I think one Rifle in the picture which I posted of trials is SIG 716. @Sulman Badshah @Tipu7 *


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> No the Gun in standing position is AK-103 and the Gun in lying position is ACR



 its nor ACR look at it carefully and it is CZ BREN in 7.62x39


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## Soldier-X

*FN SCAR*
From Pakistani movie *JPNA 
@Zarvan *
So how long do we still need to wait for the official announcement of new main battle rifle of Pak Army....
And now we even have some more new guns in the competition??? Muje mota mota batao yar konsi gun agay ja rhi he aur jiskay select honay k chances hen.Main apni zindagi me hi FN SCAR ya HK 416/417 Pak army me dekhna chahta hn, 
*



*


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## Zarvan

Soldier-X said:


> *FN SCAR*
> From Pakistani movie *JPNA
> @Zarvan *
> So how long do we still need to wait for the official announcement of new main battle rifle of Pak Army....
> And now we even have some more new guns in the competition??? Muje mota mota batao yar konsi gun agay ja rhi he aur jiskay select honay k chances hen.Main apni zindagi me hi FN SCAR ya HK 416/417 Pak army me dekhna chahta hn,
> *
> View attachment 325718
> *


Yes this was real shocker for me. By the way I think IDEAS 2016 can bring the announcement with it

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## That Guy

Zarvan said:


> Yes this was real shocker for me. By the way I think IDEAS 2016 can bring the announcement with it


* 22 to 25 November 2016*

*http://ideaspakistan.gov.pk/ideas_2016.php*

The time would seem about right, on top of that, Gen Raheel Shareef is set to retire around then. The new rifle may be his parting legacy, like Shahpur was Keyani's.


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## Zarvan

That Guy said:


> * 22 to 25 November 2016*
> 
> *http://ideaspakistan.gov.pk/ideas_2016.php*
> 
> The time would seem about right, on top of that, Gen Raheel Shareef is set to retire around then. The new rifle may be his parting legacy, like Shahpur was Keyani's.


I don't think so new Gun will come G3 is old and all attempts of up gradations are only increasing its wait and doing nothing else. As for designing our own Gun that is also not going to happen and rolling back General Raheel programs would be impossible. That attempt will create lot of trouble inside Army.


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## Zarvan



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## Army research

Guys any gun that comes would be better than g3 so jeeway Pakistan .....I think Fn scar or 417 or it's clones

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## Zarvan

Army research said:


> Guys any gun that comes would be better than g3 so jeeway Pakistan .....I think Fn scar or 417 or it's clones


HK 417 is not even in the competition so lets wait for IDEAS 2016. It would make things clear


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## Army research

Zarvan said:


> HK 417 is not even in the competition so lets wait for IDEAS 2016. It would make things clear


Or clones like mpt


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## Zarvan

@balixd Sir any updates ?? @Horus


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## That Guy

Zarvan said:


> @balixd Sir any updates ?? @Horus


Give it a few weeks to a month.


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## Zarvan




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## Zarvan




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## Path-Finder

This thread died a looooong time ago. we cannot even discuss rifles in a decent manner because of SCAR extremist's!

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## fitpOsitive

Path-Finder said:


> This thread died a looooong time ago. we cannot even discuss rifles in a decent manner because of SCAR extremist's!


I also feel that. People are not just ready to hear when it comes to SCAR or else. As if SCAR is the only choice. I am also afraid that this may also manipulate things during trials.
Discussion should be open hearted (not biased).

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## Army research

fitpOsitive said:


> I also feel that. People are not just ready to hear when it comes to SCAR or else. As if SCAR is the only choice. I am also afraid that this may also manipulate things during trials.
> Discussion should be open hearted (not biased).


Although I would love to see scar with Pakistan in 15 years but if not mpt76 is damn well fine I mean given our economy even that would be lovely just anything to replace the g3 that beauty has lived it's life it's time for the para , police basically other people to play with it what other weapons what about hk 417 is it in trials or not


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## Quwa

Anyone else take a look at Poland's MSBS? 

http://fabrykabroni.pl/en/produkty/karabiny/msbs/

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## untitled

Quwa said:


> Anyone else take a look at Poland's MSBS?
> 
> http://fabrykabroni.pl/en/produkty/karabiny/msbs/



Just did







They offer both 7.62 and 5.56 (classic & bullpup)

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## Zarvan

Army research said:


> Although I would love to see scar with Pakistan in 15 years but if not mpt76 is damn well fine I mean given our economy even that would be lovely just anything to replace the g3 that beauty has lived it's life it's time for the para , police basically other people to play with it what other weapons what about hk 417 is it in trials or not


No HK 417 is not in the trials and that is most weird thing

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## Zarvan

@balixd @Arsalan @Path-Finder @Quwa @Sulman Badshah

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## RAMPAGE

Zarvan said:


> @balixd @Arsalan @Path-Finder @Quwa @Sulman Badshah


Beretta looks nice. Wonder how it is doing. Where's our pretty CZ Bren?


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> @balixd @Arsalan @Path-Finder @Quwa @Sulman Badshah


zarvan your nightmare on the far right . Have to say the new helmets are a good addition first time seeing them

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## RAMPAGE

Path-Finder said:


> zarvan your nightmare on the far right . Have to say the new helmets are a good addition first time seeing them


I wonder when they're going to change the cammo of SSG and other SFs. Ab tou FC ka bhi change hogia hai.

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> zarvan your nightmare on the far right . Have to say the new helmets are a good addition first time seeing them


Yes I would prefer any Gun over AK-103 and this M21


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Yes I would prefer any Gun over AK-103 and this M21


M77


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## RAMPAGE

Zarvan said:


> Yes I would prefer any Gun over AK-103 and this M21


Why?


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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> Yes I would prefer any Gun over AK-103 and this M21


Isnt it M77? 



RAMPAGE said:


> Why?


Bss

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> M77


It's M21 not M77. The M77 is AK copy made by Zastava


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## Sulman Badshah

Zarvan said:


> It's M21 not M77. The M77 is AK copy made by Zastava


its M77 .. 

M21 is the AK variant

AK 103 is one of most accurate, battle tested and reliable gun out there ..


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## Zarvan

Sulman Badshah said:


> its M77 ..
> 
> M21 is the AK variant
> 
> AK 103 is one of most accurate, battle tested and reliable gun out there ..


http://www.zastava-arms.rs/en/militaryproduct/assault-rifle-m77-b1 You mean this is the Gun in picture


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## Hell hound

Zarvan said:


> @balixd @Arsalan @Path-Finder @Quwa @Sulman Badshah


new helmets looks great now all that remains is a quality vest/armor.


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> It's M21 not M77. The M77 is AK copy made by Zastava


ok ask khala google

Zarvan i have never met a dheet banda like you. not meant to offend but damn.....

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## Zarvan

Hell hound said:


> new helmets looks great now all that remains is a quality vest/armor.


Can this vest stop 7.62 X 51 caliber ? @Arsalan 



Path-Finder said:


> ok ask khala google
> 
> Zarvan i have never met a dheet banda like you. not meant to offend but damn.....


Yaar open Zastava website M21 looks close to this Gun not M77. I could be wrong on this


----------



## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> Can this vest stop 7.62 X 51 caliber ? @Arsalan
> 
> 
> Yaar open Zastava website M21 looks close to this Gun not M77. I could be wrong on this


You cant really tell by looking at the picture but i have seen some new modular ones being used by our armed forces and they sure are upto the international standards! Th problem is they are not a general standard issue. I love the thigh holsters in this one!!  And really dislike that guy on left! Mouttu!! _Tora professional to lagya SSG at least!! _


----------



## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Can this vest stop 7.62 X 51 caliber ? @Arsalan
> 
> 
> Yaar open Zastava website M21 looks close to this Gun not M77. I could be wrong on this


M21 is 5.56 and we are selecting two 7.62 calibre rifles only! 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zastava_M21

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zastava_M77

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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> You cant really tell by looking at the picture but i have seen some new modular ones being used by our armed forces and they sure are upto the international standards! Th problem is they are not a general standard issue. I love the thigh holsters in this one!!  And really dislike that guy on left! Mouttu!! _Tora professional to lagya SSG at least!! _


Well than we should hope they soon become standard issue soon


----------



## Sulman Badshah

Zarvan said:


> http://www.zastava-arms.rs/en/militaryproduct/assault-rifle-m77-b1 You mean this is the Gun in picture


----------



## Path-Finder

Sulman Badshah said:


> View attachment 328122


Please you are now openly trying to give @Zarvan a seizure!!!


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Please you are now openly trying to give @Zarvan a seizure!!!


https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/...HbMvOOrbbCfSVbQ9qF6D9c1MBsaOq4zigYAEa7a9W5QOg
Where ever I wrote M77 and AK copy comes up that's why I am confused


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## Hell hound

Sulman Badshah said:


> View attachment 328122


i think we should go for this gun what do you say @Zarvan .its cheap has rails looks reliable enough with our enemy having rifle like INSAS all other option will be over kill don't you think


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## Zarvan

Hell hound said:


> i think we should go for this gun what do you say @Zarvan .its cheap has rails looks reliable enough with our enemy having rifle like INSAS all other option will be over kill don't you think


Your enemy is also looking to replace INSAS and better if u have massive advantage over your enemy

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## Great Janjua

Zarvan said:


> Your enemy is also looking to replace INSAS and better if u have massive advantage over your enemy


What if the enemy can't aim


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## Talwar e Pakistan

Have we chosen yet...?


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## Zarvan

Great Janjua said:


> What if the enemy can't aim


Indian Army is not nursery class kids. They are well trained and motivated force they know how to aim and shoot and kill



Talwar e Pakistan said:


> Have we chosen yet...?


No trials are still going on


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## Great Janjua

Zarvan said:


> Indian Army is not nursery class kids. They are well trained and motivated force they know how to aim and shoot and kill



I meant the terrorists
Sorry for hurting your feelings mate


----------



## Hell hound

Zarvan said:


> Your enemy is also looking to replace INSAS and better if u have massive advantage over your enemy


but isn't this gun good cheap reliable and fairly modern what else do we need.


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## Zarvan

Great Janjua said:


> I meant the terrorists
> Sorry for hurting your feelings mate


Even those terrorists are well trained and better motivated than any conventional army



Hell hound said:


> but isn't this gun good cheap reliable and fairly modern what else do we need.


No these things are not enough.


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## Great Janjua

Zarvan said:


> Even those terrorists are well trained and better motivated than any conventional army
> 
> 
> No these things are not enough.



In all seriousness we should at least try to procure a bull pup rifle they are extremely accurate and light weight


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## Zarvan

Great Janjua said:


> In all seriousness we should at least try to procure a bull pup rifle they are extremely accurate and light weight


Pakistani forces generally don't like bull pup rifles

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## Hell hound

Zarvan said:


> No these things are not enough.


why?


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## muhammadali233

Great Janjua said:


> In all seriousness we should at least try to procure a bull pup rifle they are extremely accurate and light weight


short range not so effective for coin ops.
one shot one kill



Hell hound said:


> why?


ssg n operates in limited number because of their ease of portability.


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## Army research

Bull pup can't work for large scale conventional armies like ours with different terrains good for spec ops

Any news as of yet ?

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## pzfz

I'm liking the M77 more and more for the general infantry. Fal-mod like top rail. Wonder if zastava can bring down the weight a little more and develope a galil type sight and nozzle. 

SF is always going to get the particular guns they want, but for general infantry ease of use, cost, and reliability are going to be the parameters.

M21 is 556 whereas the m77 is 762nato.

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## Army research

What do you think people does the PA just want like cheap guns for general infantry ,SCAR like expensive guns for say troops like Light commando bats which they are going to increase in numbers soon ?


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## Zarvan

Army research said:


> What do you think people does the PA just want like cheap guns for general infantry ,SCAR like expensive guns for say troops like Light commando bats which they are going to increase in numbers soon ?


Pakistan never opts for cheap option. Even when we selected G3 51 years ago it was not a cheap option but selecting the best Gun means you don't have to invest for next few decades.

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## Sodium

Pakistani opted for multipal rifles Like Ak-103, Few thousand Scars and rest of the troops Infantry will continue with G.3 for at least 10 more years.


----------



## Army research

Sodium said:


> Pakistani opted for multipal rifles Like Ak-103, Few thousand Scars and rest of the troops Infantry will continue with G.3 for at least 10 more years.


Any source for this news and please how do you it ?


----------



## Zarvan

Sodium said:


> Pakistani opted for multipal rifles Like Ak-103, Few thousand Scars and rest of the troops Infantry will continue with G.3 for at least 10 more years.


Your source ? Yes G3 will continue for one decade because replace all G3 will take at least a decade. And yes we may opt for two Guns but both will be adopted in large numbers not few thousand

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## Army research

Sodium said:


> Speculations and discussion in army circles.


What do you mean is there any hard solid news


----------



## SSGcommandoPAK

Hell hound said:


> i think we should go for this gun what do you say @Zarvan .its cheap has rails looks reliable enough with our enemy having rifle like INSAS all other option will be over kill don't you think



No India is gonna replace its INSAS with this DRDO Multi Caliber Rifle


----------



## Zarvan

Sodium said:


> Dear little brother don't tease me....i am serving member ..rest ....what can i say
> 
> 
> Time...wait and watch Sir....


Okay that's good but Sir I know lot of service member who have no clue about many things and those outside Army know. But G3 has to and will go. It's 51 year old weapon and has its limitations and every new attempt to upgrade it is only increasing weight of G3.

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## Zarvan

Sodium said:


> Dear Zarvan I am infantry man i am not that technical but G.3 passed his/her time but since we have budget issues plus licensed production at home issue we can't adopt standard issue rifle since Scar refuses home production only option left bren and HK...


No Sir SCAR is offering home production so is other Guns only AK-103 has questions. SCAR offered TOT from day one



Sodium said:


> Dear Zarvan I am infantry man i am not that technical but G.3 passed his/her time but since we have budget issues plus licensed production at home issue we can't adopt standard issue rifle since Scar refuses home production only option left bren and HK...


And you need to ask Military leadership that why on earth they are not testing HK-417


----------



## Zarvan

Sodium said:


> HK failed miserably even no more in consideration ask any body and Russia not agreed home production either.
> 
> I rest my case with Scar and AK no home production and because of that we will induct limited numbers.


That is what I am saying Russia is not offering TOT of AK-103 but SCAR is offering TOT or in other words home production. As for HK-417 How it failed when it was not even tested for single day. @balixd @Arsalan @RAMPAGE



Sodium said:


> HK failed miserably even no more in consideration ask any body and Russia not agreed home production either.
> 
> I rest my case with Scar and AK no home production and because of that we will induct limited numbers.


Sir SCAR is offering home production


----------



## That Guy

Sodium said:


> Haha more then 70% parts can't be produce at home due to alloys which we don't have facilities to produce at home check the facts.
> 
> And which they refuses to allow or TOT.
> 
> OK breaking news...
> Pakistan wants aluminium plus gun metal instead of alloys to produce at home ignoring weight issue but SCAR refuses.


Okay, first of all, PA is starting the competition asking all the contenders to offer ToT, so if SCAR refuses, PA will simply buy the next best one.

Second, in the beginning, PA didn't have the facilities to produce the G3 either; when the G3 won, HK gave the necessary machinery and training to Pakistan, in order to produce the gun domestically.

Whom ever wins this competition, will be helping set up the necessary equipment and machinery to produce the rifle at home. A standard army service rifle RELIES upon domestic production, that is partly what makes the rifle standard.

To my knowledge, FN has neither refused, nor confirmed anything. If it refused, I can bet you right now, they'd never even be in the competition.

Also, HK didn't lose in the competition, it simply didn't answer Pakistan's request to join the competition; You can't lose something you never had.

@balixd @Quwa @Bilal Khan (Quwa) can you help here? Please correct me, if I'm wrong.

---------------------

On a lighter note, if you ARE a professional, talk to the mods about getting you a tag that shows as such. If you can prove who you claim to be, you'll probably get the tag.

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## RAMPAGE

Sodium said:


> Pakistan wants aluminium plus gun metal instead of alloys to produce at home ignoring weight issue but SCAR refuses.


Scar already uses Aluminum alloys, no?


----------



## MastanKhan

Sodium said:


> Haha more then 70% parts can't be produce at home due to alloys which we don't have facilities to produce at home check the facts.
> 
> And which they refuses to allow or TOT.
> 
> OK breaking news...
> Pakistan wants aluminium plus gun metal instead of alloys to produce at home ignoring weight issue but SCAR refuses.



Hi,

Welcome to the forum--. You need to understand that you are talking to 'KIDS'---who are totally clueless to the manufacturing aspect of the modern day technology.

They speak before they think. The information that you gave out has a technical aspect where pakistani production facilities are limited due to their obsolete technology---.

A knowledgeable poster would have stepped back and searched for more information on the subject matter.

I would suggest that you write what you want to---and don't get upset because someone does not believe what you are saying.

Just remember one thing---if you know the truth---then you need to prove nothing.

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## That Guy

Sodium said:


>


I literally gave you a link that proves it

https://defence.pk/threads/police-reforms-in-kpk.303454/page-6#post-6138799

here it is again.

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## That Guy

Sodium said:


>








notice the name at the bottom. You can get rid of the text, but you can't get rid of the water mark. So far, all you've done is go on google images.

@MastanKhan I'm disappointed, I thought you'd back me on this.


----------



## IndoUS

That Guy said:


> No, I just don't believe everything I read on the internet.
> 
> For example, if I claim that I'm a nigerian prince with millions of dollars, would you believe me?
> 
> 
> It says Afridi, which is not only something you didn't post in your original claim, but really proves nothing.


Mate just ban the guy and move on. This is waste of your time.

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## That Guy

IndoUS said:


> Mate just ban the guy and move on. This is waste of your time.


No no, I want him to keep digging his own grave. The ban hammer will be all the sweeter.

Also, I can't ban him, that's the thing mods can only do.

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## That Guy

Sodium said:


> OOh well since i object u r views .....
> 
> @That Guy
> U served in armed forces or police?


Nope, not even a little bit. Why? Are you gonna use that as a way to try and discredit me? You know that's a logical fallacy, but I'm sure a police officer, such as yourself would already know that.

Surprised you've given up, after all those insults.

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## MastanKhan

That Guy said:


> notice the name at the bottom. You can get rid of the text, but you can't get rid of the water mark. So far, all you've done is go on google images.
> 
> @MastanKhan I'm disappointed, I thought you'd back me on this.



Hi,

There is a good american saying---if someone wants to dig a hole---let them dig it bigger. If that is what he wanted to do---then more power to him---.

This discussion had become a nasty argument--and my apologies for upsetting you.

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## That Guy

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> There is a good american saying---if someone wants to dig a hole---let them dig it bigger. If that is what he wanted to do---then more power to him---.
> 
> This discussion had become a nasty argument--and my apologies for upsetting you.


No need to apologize, you didn't do anything wrong. I guess it's partly my fault.

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## Max Pain

Ive never seen a so called professional act so least professionally in my life.

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## That Guy

Sodium said:


> But sorry to spoil your party ..and i beg my pardon..leaving you people right now.....i provided my cell and name even if u suspect than go to hell...i dont care


A phone call doesn't confirm anything. I can claim to be a nigerian prince, if you call me, won't make that a fact.



> Yes u rs even you don't know about your capacity and talk about future weapons.


My capacity seems to be bigger than yours.



Max Pain said:


> Ive never seen a so called professional act so least professionally in my life.


You know, if he really is whom he claims to be, calling the media and showing them this would probably result in his firing.

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## MastanKhan

Sodium said:


> But sorry to spoil your party ..and i beg my pardon..leaving you people right now.....i provided my cell and name even if u suspect than go to hell...i dont care
> 
> 
> Yes u rs even you don't know about your capacity and talk about future weapons.



Sir,

You might not know---but there are over 50000 registered members on this board---and thousands of un registered guests lurking all the time.

If all of us started to get upset and wanted to prove ourselves with force and anger---there would be chaos here all the time.

Some of us have worked very hard to build this place to where it is today---so that we can come here and exchanges ideas---views and information.

Even though sometimes things get out of hand---we still find a way to control ourselves---step back momentarily and re-assess our game plan.

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## gangsta_rap

Sodium said:


> I am on many forum but face same problems with civilians...





Sodium said:


> This is me and how people respect me





Sodium said:


> Call me .....If u r real man....





Sodium said:


> Call me or give me u r number maderchoud



"Call me maderchod hurr durr I are professional durr"

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## That Guy

Sodium said:


> Seems an agenda being followed ...keep it buddy
> 
> Mataan Sahib i don't have any plan....
> Sorry to disturb u r party.....Enjoy u won't me see u again....


Yes, there is an agenda. Cthulhu is out to get you.

Listen, you don't have to pretend to be something you're not, I'm not going to shame you for it...well, not unless you give me a reason to, which you did.

We're all enthusiasts here, and the few professionals that are here, worked their asses off getting actually claim their professionals; they PROVED they were professionals. It angers me when fakes try to pose as something they're not, it is insulting towards people like @gambit @Joe Shearer @jhungary , all of whom actually worked hard to have the right to be called military professionals.

We've had people claim they're ex-diplomats, politicians, soldiers, and it turned out to be fake a lot of the time. You have to understand that we won't just believe you, simply because you say something.

I sincerely hope you get over this, and enjoy the forum, but you shouldn't claim something you're not.


----------



## That Guy

Sodium said:


> Thanking u for this but my child this time u proved original person wrong.
> 
> Good buy..


Your choice. I've given you an olive branch, if you change your mind, it'll still be there when you come back.


----------



## Irfan Baloch

That Guy said:


> Not only are you a racist, but you're not acting very professional. I've already stated my reasons, I will not give you my number, where my identity can be easily stolen and found.
> 
> What if I were to go to the media with what you're saying? A police official acting like a petulant child, shameful.


you made a schoolboy mistake by engaging that suicide troll.
Never do that . no matter what. just report and move on



That Guy said:


> notice the name at the bottom. You can get rid of the text, but you can't get rid of the water mark. So far, all you've done is go on google images.
> 
> @MastanKhan I'm disappointed, I thought you'd back me on this.


there was no need to spend that much time. the person with apathetic excuse for existence you repeatedly responded to belongs to a breed which we normally know as Kuta Machi ..

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## That Guy

Irfan Baloch said:


> you made a schoolboy mistake by engaging that suicide troll.
> Never do that . no matter what. just report and move on
> 
> 
> there was no need to spend that much time. the person with apathetic excuse for existence you repeatedly responded to belongs to a breed which we normally know as Kuta Machi ..


Fair enough, I'll refrain from such actions in the future.

To me fair to me, I was mostly having fun with it.


----------



## That Guy

@Zarvan Now that the...problem is gone, heard anything about the trial lately?

I ask, because to me, it is becoming more and more clear that a winner may be declared in November.


----------



## Zarvan

That Guy said:


> @Zarvan Now that the...problem is gone, heard anything about the trial lately?
> 
> I ask, because to me, it is becoming more and more clear that a winner may be declared in November.


I don't have any news yet may be @balixd have or @Horus

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## Thorough Pro

I think it has more to do with German policy of small arm exports.....





Zarvan said:


> *And you need to ask Military leadership that why on earth they are not testing HK-417*


----------



## 50cent

Just work Turkish companies to reduce weight of their latest mpt rifle to make it equivalent to m4 and adopt it . Other option will be expensive

Just off topic it's.govermnent who will decide whether to replace and what's to replace according to their budget so what's the purpose of this poll. .day dreaming


----------



## That Guy

Thorough Pro said:


> I think it has more to do with German policy of small arm exports.....


From what I know, HK just didn't answer PA's calls for request for information.


----------



## Thorough Pro

because they are following their policy of no export of small arms in conflict regions



That Guy said:


> From what I know, HK just didn't answer PA's calls for request for information.


----------



## RAMPAGE

@proka89 

Any updates from your Zastava guy?


----------



## proka89

RAMPAGE said:


> @proka89
> 
> Any updates from your Zastava guy?


Nothing new.


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

@That Guy @Arsalan 

I know that it has been argued that 'money is not a problem' in regards to this rifle program, but it is worth mentioning that the MKEK MPT-76 is costing the Turkish Army around $1,200 a unit (I can't post a link - but Google "MPT-76 $" and find the Jane's article). That is considerably lower than the average we're expecting from any of the leading designs, especially the SCAR.

The MPT-76's price may be a reflection of the scale MKEK is expecting to get through the Turkish MoD and MoI. So on the one hand, it is an example of how producing another design in Pakistan (for argument's sake, SCAR) could be a major boon for the OEM. Our scale is valuable. 

On the other hand, if MKEK can iterate quickly (which it will have to in order to keep up with the Turkish Army's use and feedback), then a Pakistani order might push the price down further (albeit with diminishing marginal drops). Still, it leaves a healthy financial space for valuable add-ons, e.g. sights, scopes, UBGL, etc.

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## Arsalan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> @That Guy @Arsalan
> 
> I know that it has been argued that 'money is not a problem' in regards to this rifle program, but it is worth mentioning that the MKEK MPT-76 is costing the Turkish Army around $1,200 a unit (I can't post a link - but Google "MPT-76 $" and find the Jane's article). That is considerably lower than the average we're expecting from any of the leading designs, especially the SCAR.
> 
> The MPT-76's price may be a reflection of the scale MKEK is expecting to get through the Turkish MoD and MoI. So on the one hand, it is an example of how producing another design in Pakistan (for argument's sake, SCAR) could be a major boon for the OEM. Our scale is valuable.
> 
> On the other hand, if MKEK can iterate quickly (which it will have to in order to keep up with the Turkish Army's use and feedback), then a Pakistani order might push the price down further (albeit with diminishing marginal drops). Still, it leaves a healthy financial space for valuable add-ons, e.g. sights, scopes, UBGL, etc.



Money is sure a problem. We may have funds set aside for the gun procurement but you know that the idea of saving some of those to be spend on some other project can be lucrative. It is not like we have billions we are looking to throw around. This is the reason I feel that money too will be a point to consider and given the gun is performing OK as per our requirement and is coming cheap we may very well consider going with that. For me CZ BERN may be that option and you rightly point out to MPT-76. The other main thing that will be considered will be the side benefits. Who will allow us to manufacture this at POF and then who will allow us to export it as well. Who will offer POF to be a registered supplier of their gun or gun parts. These are purely business decisions and these all will have their say in the final decision.

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## RAMPAGE

Arsalan said:


> Money is sure a problem. We may have funds set aside for the gun procurement but you know that the idea of saving some of those to be spend on some other project can be lucrative. It is not like we have billions we are looking to throw around. This is the reason I feel that money too will be a point to consider and given the gun is performing OK as per our requirement and is coming cheap we may very well consider going with that. For me CZ BERN may be that option and you rightly point out to MPT-76. The other main thing that will be considered will be the side benefits. Who will allow us to manufacture this at POF and then who will allow us to export it as well. Who will offer POF to be a registered supplier of their gun or gun parts. These are purely business decisions and these all will have their say in the final decision.


Did we receive the CZ Bren 7.62 NATO variant? I've never seen one.


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Arsalan said:


> Money is sure a problem. We may have funds set aside for the gun procurement but you know that the idea of saving some of those to be spend on some other project can be lucrative. It is not like we have billions we are looking to throw around. This is the reason I feel that money too will be a point to consider and given the gun is performing OK as per our requirement and is coming cheap we may very well consider going with that. For me CZ BERN may be that option and you rightly point out to MPT-76. The other main thing that will be considered will be the side benefits. Who will allow us to manufacture this at POF and then who will allow us to export it as well. Who will offer POF to be a registered supplier of their gun or gun parts. These are purely business decisions and these all will have their say in the final decision.


I feel as though CZ - as well as other hopefuls - would need to show how rapid their iterative cycle is in order to really have a good shot at bagging the Army's order. The SCAR hype is certainly coming from somewhere, otherwise the Army could have just not let it stick around this long. But if CZ can give us an improved make of their design during the trials, then things could get very interesting.

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## Arsalan

RAMPAGE said:


> Did we receive the CZ Bren 7.62 NATO variant? I've never seen one.


BERN is participating. Have been evaluated and have got good reviews as well.


----------



## RAMPAGE

Arsalan said:


> BERN is participating. Have been evaluated and have got good reviews as well.


Of course it has but it was participating in the 7.62x39 trials. We have seen every rifle participating in the 7.62x51 trials and CZ Bren in not among them.

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## Arsalan

RAMPAGE said:


> Of course it has but it was participating in the 7.62x39 trials. We have seen every rifle participating in the 7.62x51 trials and CZ Bren in not among them.


Yeah i am also not aware of 7.62 x 51 participation by CZ either.


----------



## RAMPAGE

Arsalan said:


> Yeah i am also not aware of 7.62 x 51 participation by CZ either.


A pity though.


----------



## Arsalan

RAMPAGE said:


> A pity though.


Indeed. Wait i will check this now just to be sure.

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## Zarvan

Those who think money is the issue either has no idea what Army thinks or does. Pakistan would have never started trials if they were not sure about the money. Idea for replacing G3 are 10 to 15 years old but we didn't trials than but now we are doing this and we have the money. As for TOT all companies are offering TOT only AK-103 is little doubtful



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I feel as though CZ - as well as other hopefuls - would need to show how rapid their iterative cycle is in order to really have a good shot at bagging the Army's order. The SCAR hype is certainly coming from somewhere, otherwise the Army could have just not let it stick around this long. But if CZ can give us an improved make of their design during the trials, then things could get very interesting.


SCAR is not the hype but fact I have talked to several soldiers and all say SCAR is leading but Pakistan is also rethinking about which caliber suits us. Question is between 7.62 X 51 and 7.62 X 39. Trials are getting longer because Navy and Air Force are now also testing these Rifles

BREN is here with 7.62 X 39 not 7.62 X 51

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## Zarvan



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## RAMPAGE

Interesting to note here that both the upper and lower receivers of Beretta ARX-200 are made of polymer. I wonder if that would be too unconventional for PA. I'm sure we'll all like to know how well it has been handling the abuse. 

@balixd @Arsalan

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## Army research

RAMPAGE said:


> Interesting to note here that both the upper and lower receivers of Beretta ARX-200 are made of polymer. I wonder if that would be too unconventional for PA. I'm sure we'll all like to know how well it has been handling the abuse.
> 
> @balixd @Arsalan


If the package is attractive then we'll likely modify and make a version suitable for us and most likely export to countries who need our type of guns

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## Arsalan

RAMPAGE said:


> Interesting to note here that both the upper and lower receivers of Beretta ARX-200 are made of polymer. I wonder if that would be too unconventional for PA. I'm sure we'll all like to know how well it has been handling the abuse.
> 
> @balixd @Arsalan


And how will the fare in our environment!! 

Anyway, i wont be too much worried about it as these are the things those field trails are all about.



RAMPAGE said:


> Interesting to note here that both the upper and lower receivers of Beretta ARX-200 are made of polymer. I wonder if that would be too unconventional for PA. I'm sure we'll all like to know how well it has been handling the abuse.
> 
> @balixd @Arsalan


And how will the fare in our environment!! 

Anyway, i wont be too much worried about it as these are the things those field trails are all about.

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## RAMPAGE

Arsalan said:


> And how will the fare in our environment!!
> 
> Anyway, i wont be too much worried about it as these are the things those field trails are all about.
> 
> 
> And how will the fare in our environment!!
> 
> Anyway, i wont be too much worried about it as these are the things those field trails are all about.


Not worried, just curious. The only polymer standard rifle I know of is IWI Tavor.


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## Zarvan

Polymer won't be much of a problem technology has advanced and developing stronger polymer which can handle and survive in worst weather conditions should not be the problem. By the way what I remember is that @balixd said that SCAR and Berreta are performing best in trials

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## That Guy

Zarvan said:


> Polymer won't be much of a problem technology has advanced and developing stronger polymer which can handle and survive in worst weather conditions should not be the problem. By the way what I remember is that @balixd said that SCAR and Berreta are performing best in trials


So I was right that Berretta was performing well.

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## Zarvan

That Guy said:


> So I was right that Berretta was performing well.

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## Arsalan

That Guy said:


> So I was right that Berretta was performing well.


actually you know that it is not like a race. Its an evaluation process so statements like "xyz have left all others far behinde" are misleading. It should be and it is, as you said, doing well or not doing well. Or as @balixd says, "best in trials"

I mean, how can we say a gun have been left far behinde or a gin is far ahead is both have passed all evaluation stages, have both fired accurately and have proven reliability in all given conditions. If both are doing same they are almost at same level, not far behinde or ahead. If one have faild, lets say, cold weather testing then it is actually failed! out! there are actually 3 or 4 guns in process right now which are all passing with one reported to have lacked in a single aspect but still kept in the game.

lets see what happens. i would again mention, stree upon, based on all the talks and discussions i had with concerned people that the field tests are ONE PART of the bigger evaluation and selection process and there are many many other things that will be considered.

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## Zarvan



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## Amer R

SCAR N is love i have use that


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## Zarvan

Amer R said:


> SCAR N is love i have use that


Are you in Forces ? Or do you have some relatives in forces ?


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## Zarvan

SCAR 16 SPR + SilencerCo Saker 7.62

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## T-123456

Zarvan said:


> View attachment 332138
> 
> View attachment 332139
> 
> View attachment 332140
> 
> SCAR 16 SPR + SilencerCo Saker 7.62


When will it be decided?


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## RAMPAGE

T-123456 said:


> When will it be decided?





Spoiler

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## Zarvan

T-123456 said:


> When will it be decided?


We are also waiting but most probably we would hear about the winner during IDEAS 2016 which is going to be held in November.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Zarvan said:


> We are also waiting but most probably we would hear about the winner during IDEAS 2016 which is going to be held in November.


I think we'll learn more about it during IDEAS 2016, but it'll be a while before a winner is announced.


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## Zarvan

*BREAKING: Kalashnikov Concern Discontinues AK-12, Replaces It with… The New AK-12!*

AK-47 / AK-74 / Everything AK, Companies, Daily News, Guns & Gear, News, Other Gear & Gadgets, Rifles by Nathaniel F with 42 Comments
Tags: 2016, 5.45x39, ak-12, ak-400, ak-74, AKs forever, armia, army, assault rifle, kalashnikov concern, next generation,ratnik, rifle, russian, upgrade






The AK-12 is dead. Long live the AK-12! That’s the song Kalashnikov Concern is singing this week at the recent ARMY 2016 expo in Moscow, Russia. The radical AK-12 prototypes that have dominated Kalashnikov’s press over the past two years are gone, replaced by a more conservative rifle – also called “AK-12” – based on the Concern’s previous AK-400 prototypes. The new rifle addresses the Russian Army’s concerns regarding the AK-12’s cost and issues in fully automatic fire, an anonymous source told TFB, and is expected to be much cheaper to build than the previous model. It incorporates many of the same improvements developed for the previous AK-12 model, but improves the strength and resilience of some of the components.











The new AK-12’s design shares more in common with the existing AK-74 than its predecessor, but it will not be a retrofit to existing rifles, the source said. Several improvements were made to the rifle’s receiver, such as an improved and far more rigid top cover interface and a new free-floated barrel. The new AK-12 reportedly outperforms the existing AK-74 by at least the margin requested by the Russian government. The 5.45x39mm AK-12 appears to also be accompanied by the 7.62x39mm caliber AK-15, evidently of similar design.




The 7.62x39mm AK-15.



Our source told us that the new AK-12 is already undergoing troop trials with the Russian Army, where it competes against the Degtyarov A545 balanced action rifle. The winner of the Ratnik rifle competition is expected to be announced later this autumn.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...oncern-discontinues-ak-12-replaces-new-ak-12/

In future these could come as replacement for Type 56

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## Thorough Pro

Agree.

An evaluation is measurement of performance against a pre-determined set of criteria like
Ability to safely fire when subjected to
-50 degrees Celsius for more than xx hours
+50 degrees Celsius for more than xx hours
immersed in water for more than xx time
immersed in salt water foe more than xx time
buried in xx deep in sand
buried in mud
subjected to intermittent fire for more than xx time or xxxx rounds
barrel life
accuracy
rate of failure (FTF, FTE)
ease of assembly and disassembly in the field
ease of cleaning
number of shots fired between cleanings
weight
recoil
accuracy, and hundreds more

each weapons is rated on each criteria, some perform best in one set of criteria, others in others and the final decision/ranking is based on the final report card subject to meeting minimums for each set




Arsalan said:


> actually you know that it is not like a race. Its an evaluation process so statements like "xyz have left all others far behinde" are misleading. It should be and it is, as you said, doing well or not doing well. Or as @balixd says, "best in trials"
> 
> I mean, how can we say a gun have been left far behinde or a gin is far ahead is both have passed all evaluation stages, have both fired accurately and have proven reliability in all given conditions. If both are doing same they are almost at same level, not far behinde or ahead. If one have faild, lets say, cold weather testing then it is actually failed! out! there are actually 3 or 4 guns in process right now which are all passing with one reported to have lacked in a single aspect but still kept in the game.
> 
> lets see what happens. i would again mention, stree upon, based on all the talks and discussions i had with concerned people that the field tests are ONE PART of the bigger evaluation and selection process and there are many many other things that will be considered.

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## Zarvan

Thorough Pro said:


> Agree.
> 
> An evaluation is measurement of performance against a pre-determined set of criteria like
> Ability to safely fire when subjected to
> -50 degrees Celsius for more than xx hours
> +50 degrees Celsius for more than xx hours
> immersed in water for more than xx time
> immersed in salt water foe more than xx time
> buried in xx deep in sand
> buried in mud
> subjected to intermittent fire for more than xx time or xxxx rounds
> barrel life
> accuracy
> rate of failure (FTF, FTE)
> ease of assembly and disassembly in the field
> ease of cleaning
> number of shots fired between cleanings
> weight
> recoil
> accuracy, and hundreds more
> 
> each weapons is rated on each criteria, some perform best in one set of criteria, others in others and the final decision/ranking is based on the final report card subject to meeting minimums for each set


Well good to know but waiting desperately for the results. And on the other hand is this new AK-12 and AK-15 are interesting developments


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## Vergennes

@Arsalan @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @RAMPAGE @balixd @That Guy 

I was wondering,is corruption and bribery widespread when it comes to PA's acquisitions ? I was wondering if this could be a factor in the final choice ?


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## RAMPAGE

Vergennes said:


> was wondering if this could be a factor in the final choice ?


No, it won't be. Something as consequential as the standard rifle procurement would be placed under scrutiny. PA won't make any compromise on quality and any whiff of corruption is bound to be picked up by professional high-ups or our ever vigilant COAS.

@Vergennes

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## Thorough Pro

Corruption is inevitable, kick backs might be a factor in negotiations but the decisions are to a greater extent based on product performance and merit.



Vergennes said:


> @Arsalan @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @RAMPAGE @balixd @That Guy
> 
> I was wondering,is corruption and bribery widespread when it comes to PA's acquisitions ? I was wondering if this could be a factor in the final choice ?

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Vergennes said:


> @Arsalan @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @RAMPAGE @balixd @That Guy
> 
> I was wondering,is corruption and bribery widespread when it comes to PA's acquisitions ? I was wondering if this could be a factor in the final choice ?


Pakistan is a generally corrupt country, but I can't really speak to specifics without hard evidence.

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## pzfz

It would be naive to think that corruption would not be involved in defense procurement. As long as the selection has merits a couple million here or there is acceptable.

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## Zarvan

Corruption is quite less in defense procurement in Pakistan. It's in other sectors where corrupt officers make money

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## That Guy

Vergennes said:


> @Arsalan @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @RAMPAGE @balixd @That Guy
> 
> I was wondering,is corruption and bribery widespread when it comes to PA's acquisitions ? I was wondering if this could be a factor in the final choice ?


I can only speculate.

PA is known to be the least corrupt institute within Pakistan, but they are still prone to corrupt practices. There have always been accusations that some acquisitions that PA has made in the past were a direct result of bribery, but those have never been proven.

Will it affect this competition? I want to say unlikely, but I honestly don't know.

The biggest problem is that no one will question the end result, precisely because the army is so powerful. If corruption ends up influencing the end result, you can bet that no one will say a word, and any evidence of it will be destroyed.

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## Arsalan

Vergennes said:


> @Arsalan @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @RAMPAGE @balixd @That Guy
> 
> I was wondering,is corruption and bribery widespread when it comes to PA's acquisitions ? I was wondering if this could be a factor in the final choice ?


It is there but i wont say it is "wide spread". Plus the MAJOR cases of corruption in military procurement have involved civilian Government. The notorious case of Agosta 90B submarines or the Mirage planes have involved Asif Zardari and Nicolas Sarkozi, both politicians.

I do not think this will be the case in the service rifle procurement. It is mainly based on performance and after sales services and side benefits like in house production, getting involved in parts supply, becoming a registered supplier, stuff like that.

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## Amer R

Zarvan said:


> Are you in Forces ? Or do you have some relatives in forces ?


Yes Relatives


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Arsalan said:


> It is there but i wont say it is "wide spread". Plus the MAJOR cases of corruption in military procurement have involved civilian Government. The notorious case of Agosta 90B submarines or the Mirage planes have involved Asif Zardari and Nicolas Sarkozi, both politicians.
> 
> I do not think this will be the case in the service rifle procurement. It is mainly based on performance and after sales services and side benefits like in house production, getting involved in parts supply, becoming a registered supplier, stuff like that.


Indeed. Comprehensive requirements - e.g. a large number of rifles plus technology transfer and possibly offsets - basically open the doors to a larger number of stakeholders. The process might slow down (e.g. India), but with many parties you could get more accountability.

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## Akasa

A few interesting prospects from good ol' Norinco:

*Next-generation 5.8 mm rifle being tested:




*

*Upgraded Type 03 variants come in many forms, including this one:





... or this one:





... or this one:





Some old designs are granted a second life, such as this Type 95:





... or this venerable Type 81, now dubbed "CS/LR14":





And, for those turning the doors on the past, the Star Wars-esque ZH-05:



*

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## Zarvan

SinoSoldier said:


> A few interesting prospects from good ol' Norinco:
> 
> *Next-generation 5.8 mm rifle being tested:
> View attachment 333319
> *
> 
> *Upgraded Type 03 variants come in many forms, including this one:
> View attachment 333318
> 
> 
> ... or this one:
> View attachment 333320
> 
> 
> ... or this one:
> View attachment 333331
> 
> 
> Some old designs are granted a second life, such as this Type 95:
> View attachment 333321
> 
> 
> ... or this venerable Type 81, now dubbed "CS/LR14":
> View attachment 333322
> 
> 
> And, for those turning the doors on the past, the Star Wars-esque ZH-05:
> View attachment 333327
> *


I don't think any Chinese Rifle is part of the trials but China needs to focus more on small arms. China can capture lot of smalls market in Africa and South American as well as Muslim countries


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## Zarvan

@Arsalan @balixd @RAMPAGE I have checked their profiles Nusherwan father is Brigadier and Osama also looks like son of some Army Officer so any news guys. Personally I have messaged them waiting for their answer


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## pzfz

Chinese rifles: too much polymer.


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## That Guy

Zarvan said:


> @Arsalan @balixd @RAMPAGE I have checked their profiles Nusherwan father is Brigadier and Osama also looks like son of some Army Officer so any news guys. Personally I have messaged them waiting for their answer


Seems like rumor spreading on their part; I await your confirmation.


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## Zarvan

That Guy said:


> Seems like rumor spreading on their part; I await your confirmation.


I talked to the guy and realized despite being from Army family guy has no clue on trials

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## That Guy

Zarvan said:


> I talked to the guy and realized despite being from Army family guy has no clue on trials


Too bad.

It sounded dubious anyway, so I'm not sad about it.

At this point, it isn't clear who is going to be the clear winner.


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## Zarvan

I said I would get info on the guns, the current situation according to my source is this: 1) money is not an issue, any weapon can be chosen. 2) Army wants to get a modular weapon: lightweight, multicalibre, reliable as compared to G3. 3) G3 is leading in terms of accuracy and reliability. 4) results were supposed to be announced in July but weren't because they weren't conclusive and another winter trial was announced.

This was the message by a reliable friend who messaged me few minutes ago
@Arsalan @Quwa @RAMPAGE and others

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## django

Zarvan said:


> I said I would get info on the guns, the current situation according to my source is this: 1) money is not an issue, any weapon can be chosen. 2) Army wants to get a modular weapon: lightweight, multicalibre, reliable as compared to G3. 3)* G3 is leading in terms of accuracy and reliability.* 4) results were supposed to be announced in July but weren't because they weren't conclusive and another winter trial was announced.
> 
> This was the message by a reliable friend who messaged me few minutes ago
> @Arsalan @Quwa @RAMPAGE and others


I presume you are referring to SCAR.


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## Zarvan

django said:


> I presume you are referring to SCAR.


When it comes to accuracy G3 still is best but in all other aspects SCAR is better but Pakistan will go for one other winter trials before taking final decision. Debate is also taking place about caliber. The question is between 7.62 x 39 vs 7.62 x 51. @balixd @Arsalan

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## Army research

If it is light weight multi calibre then I believe that @Zarvan should be happy that scar is coming well no final conclusion left waiting for announcement god damn I'm itching to use what ever the hell's gonna come


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## Zarvan

Army research said:


> If it is light weight multi calibre then I believe that @Zarvan should be happy that scar is coming well no final conclusion left waiting for announcement god damn I'm itching to use what ever the hell's gonna come


No announcement in near future. All the rifles will go through one more winter and than final decision would be taken.

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## Sine Nomine

Zarvan said:


> The question is between 7.62 x 39 vs 7.62 x 51.


I knew it from days of sawat and induction of Type 56-2 in large number in 2011,39 proved it's worth in all over Pakistan,soldiers were happy after getting Type 56 becuse it's robust mechanism,effective caliber and deadly firepower along reduction in weight of both weapon and ammunition guaranteed survival in CQB and mountainous warfare,also we first time came across 7.62x39 in siachen conflict and simply it's amazing.


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## CHI RULES

That Guy said:


> I can only speculate.
> 
> PA is known to be the least corrupt institute within Pakistan, but they are still prone to corrupt practices. There have always been accusations that some acquisitions that PA has made in the past were a direct result of bribery, but those have never been proven.
> 
> Will it affect this competition? I want to say unlikely, but I honestly don't know.
> 
> The biggest problem is that no one will question the end result, precisely because the army is so powerful. If corruption ends up influencing the end result, you can bet that no one will say a word, and any evidence of it will be destroyed.


 Dear Sir, it is evident that in most of defense deals especially regarding *third world or Muslim countries* element of corruption in one way or other is always there. Foreign suppliers and govt officials/ brokers every one gets his share. We clear proof in case of Augosta 90 B subs and some clues regarding F16 deals with tied hands.

Further allegations repeated regarding sights of Pak MBTs.

Same allegations/proofs are common in India like Bofors. However question should be how much the incoming weapon is useful for a country. As Bofors proved to be much useful for IA meanwhile Augosta 90 b forming main cluster of PN subs fleet.


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## The Eagle

@Zarvan Bhai you may like to read, found it interesting.

*BREAKING: Heckler & Koch CONFIRMED Winner of French AIF Rifle Contract; FN to Appeal French Decision*

@balixd @Arsalan @others

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## Zarvan

The Eagle said:


> @Zarvan Bhai you may like to read, found it interesting.
> 
> *BREAKING: Heckler & Koch CONFIRMED Winner of French AIF Rifle Contract; FN to Appeal French Decision*
> 
> @balixd @Arsalan @others


Yes but for some reason HK-417 is not in Pakistani trials although if Pakistan is going for another winter trials than I hope HK-417 also joins the competition and I would love to see HK-417 and FN SCAR H competing against each other.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Since FN lost out on in France, I imagine Pakistan would have a little more leverage in requesting lucrative commercial offsets and valuable technology transfer.

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## Amaa'n

Zarvan said:


> Yes but for some reason HK-417 is not in Pakistani trials although if Pakistan is going for another winter trials than I hope HK-417 also joins the competition and I would love to see HK-417 and FN SCAR H competing against each other.


BUT BUT BUT!!!!!!!! ........ i thought SCAR was best of the best and acing at all the tests --- how could it loose to HK???

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## The Eagle

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Since FN lost out on in France, I imagine Pakistan would have a little more leverage in requesting lucrative commercial offsets and valuable technology transfer.



This is going to be interesting through this aspect, indeed because FN would never wish to loose another market like this that too for the bigger order but it would be interesting if FN agreed to some kind of transfer etc. May be our observers may take out the opportunity. 
@Zarvan bhai one thing for sure, Rifle is not going to be selected only on basis of rounds fired in different atmosphere and weather but it has to do more with Price and ToT and other parameters/benefits supporting our budget.

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## Arsalan

The Eagle said:


> @Zarvan Bhai you may like to read, found it interesting.
> 
> *BREAKING: Heckler & Koch CONFIRMED Winner of French AIF Rifle Contract; FN to Appeal French Decision*
> 
> @balixd @Arsalan @others


Well it is good news for us i think. FN will be under some pressure and IF we chose SCAR we MAY be able to get a better deal out of them. Also the results will put to rest some of the absurd claims of superiority of SCAR on all the gun the world have seen. It was being CONFIRMED as the winner and the tone was like it is SURE that we are going for SCAR. I have been ALWAYS trying to explain that there will be MANY OTHER FACTORS that will be considered while making a final decision. We may end up with SCAR but it is by no means the right time to make those ridiculous claims of it being confirmed. There are SO MAY things to be evaluated and looked upon other than performance!!! 
Things were blown out of proportion and i really really thank you for sharing this new pieces, i hope some common sense will prevail now. 



balixd said:


> BUT BUT BUT!!!!!!!! ........ i thought SCAR was best of the best and acing at all the tests --- how could it loose to HK???



Sharartain!!!


It may well be the best but that wont be the ONLY thing people will consider while choosing the rifle for the WHOLE army. (i am not saying this to you, i know you already know this  )

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## Amaa'n

The Eagle said:


> This is going to be interesting through this aspect, indeed because FN would never wish to loose another market like this that too for the bigger order but it would be interesting if FN agreed to some kind of transfer etc. May be our observers may take out the opportunity.
> @Zarvan bhai one thing for sure, Rifle is not going to be selected only on basis of rounds fired in different atmosphere and weather but it has to do more with Price and ToT and other parameters/benefits supporting our budget.


all lot more factors dear this is why i stopped responding to this thread because it had turn more into fanfest then actually discussing something concrete --- ofcourse it will depend on the number of rounds fired and the reliability of the weapon itself but the deal breaker question will be of ToT, Pricing, and Kickbacks / filling up the deep pockets of Generals (you hear it right)



Arsalan said:


> Sharartain!!!
> 
> 
> It may well be the best but that wont be the ONLY thing people will consider while choosing the rifle for the WHOLE army. (i am not saying this to you, i know you already know this  )


as i would like to call it dear--- Fauj is out for Chaskay these days ----- those involved in the trails of all this new procurement perhaps don't even know what are they looking for ----- they just keep on testing new systems be it Tank, Artillery of Small Arms ---- you do realize that in start of 2015 they were testing Handgun for the army, well they still havn't figured it out yet --- i think fate of the Rifles will be same

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## Arsalan

balixd said:


> all lot more factors dear this is why i stopped responding to this thread because it had turn more into fanfest then actually discussing something concrete --- ofcourse it will depend on the number of rounds fired and the reliability of the weapon itself but the deal breaker question will be of ToT, Pricing, and Kickbacks / filling up the deep pockets of Generals (you hear it right)
> 
> as i would like to call it dear--- Fauj is out for Chaskay these days ----- those involved in the trails of all this new procurement perhaps don't even know what are they looking for ----- they just keep on testing new systems be it Tank, Artillery of Small Arms ---- you do realize that in start of 2015 they were testing Handgun for the army, well they still havn't figured it out yet --- i think fate of the Rifles will be same



I have been told and in fact assured that some of these trials and evaluations that gets our people all excited and “claiming” all sorts of things are just stunts for political pressure building and alliances etc. There might not be much happening any time soon (like in months or even a year or so). We need to understand that everything we praise or get a picture taken with it is not what we are SURE to buy. There are interests for reasons other than “buying” when it comes to military hardware and technology.

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## Zarvan

balixd said:


> BUT BUT BUT!!!!!!!! ........ i thought SCAR was best of the best and acing at all the tests --- how could it loose to HK???


France tested FN SCAR L mainly not FN SCAR H buy the way a friend contacted some senior Army Guys they said money is not the issue and earlier results were supposed to be announced in July but now they may go for one more winter trials and debate is also taking place about caliber. Question is between 7.62 X 51 and 7.62 X 39.
@Arsalan @The Eagle



The Eagle said:


> This is going to be interesting through this aspect, indeed because FN would never wish to loose another market like this that too for the bigger order but it would be interesting if FN agreed to some kind of transfer etc. May be our observers may take out the opportunity.
> @Zarvan bhai one thing for sure, Rifle is not going to be selected only on basis of rounds fired in different atmosphere and weather but it has to do more with Price and ToT and other parameters/benefits supporting our budget.


Price is not the issue and yes everything we would buy weather Assault Rifle or Tank or IFV or Drone mostly would be with TOT. I am also hearing about Pakistan testing various future soldier programs starting from RATNIK 3. The kits will arrive soon for trials.


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## fitpOsitive

Zarvan said:


> France tested FN SCAR L mainly not FN SCAR H buy the way a friend contacted some senior Army Guys they said money is not the issue and earlier results were supposed to be announced in July but now they may go for one more winter trials and debate is also taking place about caliber. Question is between 7.62 X 51 and 7.62 X 39.
> @Arsalan @The Eagle
> 
> 
> Price is not the issue and yes everything we would buy weather Assault Rifle or Tank or IFV or Drone mostly would be with TOT. I am also hearing about Pakistan testing various future soldier programs starting from RATNIK 3. The kits will arrive soon for trials.


Is it final that Pakistan is not buying any AK series gun?


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## Irfan Baloch

Arsalan said:


> I have been told and in fact assured that some of these trials and evaluations that gets our people all excited and “claiming” all sorts of things are just stunts for political pressure building and alliances etc. There might not be much happening any time soon (like in months or even a year or so). We need to understand that everything we praise or get a picture taken with it is not what we are SURE to buy. There are interests for reasons other than “buying” when it comes to military hardware and technology.


I agree and wont rule out the possibility of a continuing with G3 with few cosmetic changes and minor modifications to make it "current".

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## Zarvan

Irfan Baloch said:


> I agree and wont rule out the possibility of a continuing with G3 with few cosmetic changes and minor modifications to make it "current".


Every modification done on G3 is making it more heavy and thus making it impossible to be carried by soldier. The current G3M is half kg heavier than previous models and @fitpOsitive no AK series can also come it depends on who win trials. My information says SCAR is on top but you never know what happens

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## The Eagle

Zarvan said:


> France tested FN SCAR L mainly not FN SCAR H buy the way a friend contacted some senior Army Guys they said money is not the issue and earlier results were supposed to be announced in July but now they may go for one more winter trials and debate is also taking place about caliber. Question is between 7.62 X 51 and 7.62 X 39.
> @Arsalan @The Eagle
> 
> 
> Price is not the issue and yes everything we would buy weather Assault Rifle or Tank or IFV or Drone mostly would be with TOT. I am also hearing about Pakistan testing various future soldier programs starting from RATNIK 3. The kits will arrive soon for trials.



Zarvan Bhai, when I said price, it was meant to be in the long run and how it is going to cost. One thing for sure, it is not just related to the price tag of the rifle alone but it is more about many other factors like ToT, cost in long run, life of Rifle and benefits through in house production etc as well. I am not denying the performance of SCAR but that would be only about the fire power, accuracy but what we are emphasizing is many other things attached to the package that need to be beneficial. You might be aware of up-gradation of POF up-to NATO Standard w.r.t machinery etc so what if we come up with something after necessary alterations to the already in-use weapon while the benchmark would be the tested rifles. Everything is possible and no need to spend all that precious money only for the beauty of it rather that money can give us more than this purchase from somewhere else. Money is not an issue but IMO, I wouldn't be throwing it the way which doesn't make any sense.



balixd said:


> and Kickbacks / filling up the deep pockets of Generals (you hear it right)



Sir Ji, in this subject alone, personally, am not afraid of bigger % this time (like past) under the supervision of RS though possibility cannot be ruled-out, I agree.


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## Zarvan

The Eagle said:


> Zarvan Bhai, when I said price, it was meant to be in the long run and how it is going to cost. One thing for sure, it is not just related to the price tag of the rifle alone but it is more about many other factors like ToT, cost in long run, life of Rifle and benefits through in house production etc as well. I am not denying the performance of SCAR but that would be only about the fire power, accuracy but what we are emphasizing is many other things attached to the package that need to be beneficial. You might be aware of up-gradation of POF up-to NATO Standard w.r.t machinery etc so what if we come up with something after necessary alterations to the already in-use weapon while the benchmark would be the tested rifles. Everything is possible and no need to spend all that precious money only for the beauty of it rather that money can give us more than this purchase from somewhere else. Money is not an issue but IMO, I wouldn't be throwing it the way which doesn't make any sense.


I know about cost in the long run and Army knows it more than me and after calculating every possible scenario only than trials were started and yes TOT is must feature without that no weapon will come. And POF is being massively upgraded and will be further upgraded in near future


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## Vergennes

The Eagle said:


> @Zarvan Bhai you may like to read, found it interesting.
> 
> *BREAKING: Heckler & Koch CONFIRMED Winner of French AIF Rifle Contract; FN to Appeal French Decision*
> 
> @balixd @Arsalan @others





Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Since FN lost out on in France, I imagine Pakistan would have a little more leverage in requesting lucrative commercial offsets and valuable technology transfer.





The Eagle said:


> This is going to be interesting through this aspect, indeed because FN would never wish to loose another market like this that too for the bigger order but it would be interesting if FN agreed to some kind of transfer etc. May be our observers may take out the opportunity.
> @Zarvan bhai one thing for sure, Rifle is not going to be selected only on basis of rounds fired in different atmosphere and weather but it has to do more with Price and ToT and other parameters/benefits supporting our budget.





balixd said:


> BUT BUT BUT!!!!!!!! ........ i thought SCAR was best of the best and acing at all the tests --- how could it loose to HK???





Zarvan said:


> France tested FN SCAR L mainly not FN SCAR H buy the way a friend contacted some senior Army Guys they said money is not the issue and earlier results were supposed to be announced in July but now they may go for one more winter trials and debate is also taking place about caliber. Question is between 7.62 X 51 and 7.62 X 39.
> @Arsalan @The Eagle
> 
> 
> Price is not the issue and yes everything we would buy weather Assault Rifle or Tank or IFV or Drone mostly would be with TOT. I am also hearing about Pakistan testing various future soldier programs starting from RATNIK 3. The kits will arrive soon for trials.




The HK's victory is suspended until a decision is made about FN's appeal. We would know by the begining of the next week.
The HK416 already used by french air force commandos,mostly by the CPA,and the standard rifle for most (if not all) the french special forces.











Widely used by the special forces in the recent overseas operations,it received a lot of positive feedbacks from the operators where it was used in though environments and conditions. (I guess it was important.)
I have learned that some special units switched from the Scar H to the HK416 because it had recurrent defects and some parts were very fragile and easily breakable.

Right,it as the Scar L that was tested.










It is told in the ministry of defence that the HK416 showed better performances and was superior than all the other competitors (SCAR,VHS-2,MCX,ARX160). It is even told that it's the "rolls royce" of the rifles.
It is again told,that H&K made an effort about the price.

Let's see if FN wins the appeal and what were the arguments they used.

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## Irfan Baloch

Zarvan said:


> Every modification done on G3 is making it more heavy and thus making it impossible to be carried by soldier. The current G3M is half kg heavier than previous models and @fitpOsitive no AK series can also come it depends on who win trials. My information says SCAR is on top but you never know what happens


brother I meant it other way round (making it lighter but effective)
like use of composites. and replacement of different components with lighter but durable materials for say barrel, trigger group breach, magazine etc. I am not advocating just add ons for the sake of looking current but a reasonable compromise between existing gun and future needs and meet in the middle. 

I suspect a lot of corruption and commissions involved in it which might be seeing a tug of war between the decision makers who have priority over self interest and effective weapon .. dont forget that our military is also pooled from same faithful people of Pakistan who see lying and deceit as a norm.

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## fitpOsitive

Zarvan said:


> Every modification done on G3 is making it more heavy and thus making it impossible to be carried by soldier. The current G3M is half kg heavier than previous models and @fitpOsitive no AK series can also come it depends on who win trials. My information says SCAR is on top but you never know what happens


AK are becoming better at faster pace. Its my feeling that AKs are better than other as far as reliability, availability and mass production issues are concern. Rest lies in the hand of decision makers and testing personnel.


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## Zarvan

fitpOsitive said:


> AK are becoming better at faster pace. Its my feeling that AKs are better than other as far as reliability, availability and mass production issues are concern. Rest lies in the hand of decision makers and testing personnel.


New AK Guns are changing the things for sure question is will the enter trials


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## The Eagle

Irfan Baloch said:


> I suspect a lot of corruption and commissions involved in it which might be seeing a tug of war between the decision makers who have priority over self interest and effective weapon .. dont forget that our military is also pooled from same faithful people of Pakistan who see lying and deceit as a norm.



Sir, hopefully in the end, such tussle would be favoring us though pushing for more trials through this winter as well means no decision during tenure of RS.


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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> @Arsalan @balixd @RAMPAGE I have checked their profiles Nusherwan father is Brigadier and Osama also looks like son of some Army Officer so any news guys. Personally I have messaged them waiting for their answer



The brigadier may want to keep his kids on a tighter leash, that is all i have to say.

Also you are well aware of my views on such "sources" or even on calling such goons as "sources" 
Twitter and Facebook kids are the opposite of reliable!



Zarvan said:


> I talked to the guy and realized despite being from Army family guy has no clue on trials


But since he is a kid of some army official so whatever he says can be quoted as official stance of military, LOLZ!



Zarvan said:


> Price is not the issue and yes everything we would buy weather Assault Rifle or Tank or IFV or Drone mostly would be with TOT. I am also hearing about Pakistan testing various future soldier programs starting from RATNIK 3. The kits will arrive soon for trials.


I love it when you say money is not an issue,,, it makes me feel filthy rich aand i start to smell like Oil!!
I am not sure if i should be happy or sad about that fact it is just a "pani ka bulbulla"

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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> The brigadier may want to keep his kids on a tighter leash, that is all i have to say.
> 
> Also you are well aware of my views on such "sources" or even on calling such goons as "sources"
> Twitter and Facebook kids are the opposite of reliable!
> 
> 
> But since he is a kid of some army official so whatever he says can be quoted as official stance of military, LOLZ!
> 
> 
> I love it when you say money is not an issue,,, it makes me feel filthy rich aand i start to smell like Oil!!
> I am not sure if i should be happy or sad about that fact it is just a "pani ka bulbulla"


This is what senior Army Guys said. They said we we calculated everything and we knew what we are going for. They didn't woke up one day and thought HEY !!!! lets go for Gun trials and next week they were having trials. They studied and calculated everything before starting trials. Also initially 14 Rifles wanted to come they chose 5 one of them was SCAR and other was BERRETTA ARX 200 they knew from day one that these are not cheap Guns they had the idea what would be the long term cost and even if we get them with TOT. So Army know what are they doing and they had arranged the money before starting trials. It's childish on your part that if you think than out of no where Army chose to have trials and they didn't calculated the costs and didn't do the well thorough research before starting trials.

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## Army research

Maybe they could be testing and prolonging tests on purpose so they can copy the design ? If you ce to think of our analysts ,gun makers could get their hands all over these change a few things give it a different name say pk 431 and make a new rifle ? Any ideas


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## Arsalan

Irfan Baloch said:


> I agree and wont rule out the possibility of a continuing with G3 with few cosmetic changes and minor modifications to make it "current".


Theoretically, you are quite right. We may come up against better ways to spend the money and that would be the end of all this. However, this is quite unlikely. I am quite sure that we are not going to see some guns being inducted. I have tried to explain (not to much avail) that how the guns are likely to be inducted in batches. The initial purchase will likely be of a limited number and then we will DECIDE whether to build on that or not, meaning, we may even decide NOT TO!! However i also think that in news, it will be leaked as "Pakistan selects a NEW replacement gun for WHOLE army...." that wont be the case in reality. The reason for this batch wise induction is mainly that we will like to use these in actual war situation. Also this will give us a better insight into the gun that we will be making, a chance to study and learn all the lessons from it. As per my discussion with a few people who are relevant in all this, there still is some support for a local gun. How influential that can be is something only time can tell. But there sure are people in key posts that still think about a local design. Anyway, to put this simply and try to explain this once again, with hope of getting out fan boys realize what is actually happening rather then believing in twitter kids, there will be different parts and steps of evaluation process, field trials are just one of them. A decision will be made based on evaluation in all these steps. The decision may also be classified as a "primary selection" with thousands of guns bought, made, studied and used by the forces and the main decision to continue with the same only to come afterwards.



Zarvan said:


> This is what senior Army Guys said. They said we we calculated everything and we knew what we are going for. They didn't woke up one day and thought HEY !!!! lets go for Gun trials and next week they were having trials. They studied and calculated everything before starting trials. Also initially 14 Rifles wanted to come they chose 5 one of them was SCAR and other was BERRETTA ARX 200 they knew from day one that these are not cheap Guns they had the idea what would be the long term cost and even if we get them with TOT. So Army know what are they doing and they had arranged the money before starting trials. It's childish on your part that if you think than out of no where Army chose to have trials and they didn't calculated the costs and didn't do the well thorough research before starting trials.


Lolz,
what senior army guy? Was his son acting as his correspondent telling you what papa said at evening tea? 

Also dear, NEVER forget that this is not like our grocery shopping. There are unforeseen expenditures, there are emergencies, there are priorities that may keep on changing depending on situation. Finding a replacement of gun might be our priority today however if something have changed, that may make a fighter jet or a tank or SPH more important and we will suddenly be more focused on that. Plus by cost, please try to understand that it is not the unit cost people are talking about. The cost of doing business with a certain group/country can be higher than some other. That too keep on changing depending on you relations, geo-politics and what not. Please try and understand that "MONEY is always relvant" and is always an issue and will ALWAYS be a factor effecting the decision. Again, IT IS NOT THE UNIT cost but the cost of the business deal! What offer one brings to the table will always have a significant weight!

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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> Theoretically, you are quite right. We may come up against better ways to spend the money and that would be the end of all this. However, this is quite unlikely. I am quite sure that we are not going to see some guns being inducted. I have tried to explain (not to much avail) that how the guns are likely to be inducted in batches. The initial purchase will likely be of a limited number and then we will DECIDE whether to build on that or not, meaning, we may even decide NOT TO!! However i also think that in news, it will be leaked as "Pakistan selects a NEW replacement gun for WHOLE army...." that wont be the case in reality. The reason for this batch wise induction is mainly that we will like to use these in actual war situation. Also this will give us a better insight into the gun that we will be making, a chance to study and learn all the lessons from it. As per my discussion with a few people who are relevant in all this, there still is some support for a local gun. How influential that can be is something only time can tell. But there sure are people in key posts that still think about a local design. Anyway, to put this simply and try to explain this once again, with hope of getting out fan boys realize what is actually happening rather then believing in twitter kids, there will be different parts and steps of evaluation process, field trials are just one of them. A decision will be made based on evaluation in all these steps. The decision may also be classified as a "primary selection" with thousands of guns bought, made, studied and used by the forces and the main decision to continue with the same only to come afterwards.
> 
> 
> Lolz,
> what senior army guy? Was his son acting as his correspondent telling you what papa said at evening tea?
> 
> Also dear, NEVER forget that this is not like our grocery shopping. There are unforeseen expenditures, there are emergencies, there are priorities that may keep on changing depending on situation. Finding a replacement of gun might be our priority today however if something have changed, that may make a fighter jet or a tank or SPH more important and we will suddenly be more focused on that. Plus by cost, please try to understand that it is not the unit cost people are talking about. The cost of doing business with a certain group/country can be higher than some other. That too keep on changing depending on you relations, geo-politics and what not. Please try and understand that "MONEY is always relvant" and is always an issue and will ALWAYS be a factor effecting the decision. Again, IT IS NOT THE UNIT cost but the cost of the business deal! What offer one brings to the table will always have a significant weight!


I have a friend who talked to officers including a Brigadier and a Colonel who are involved in Trials. They are credible as is my friend. Friend is not some childish fanboy and as for that HK-417 well I talked to that guy turns out post is one and a half year old and that guy was wrong for sure but I am right on spot here. The rifles are going for one more winter and may be new AK-15 may also join rifle trials and few other rifles


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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> I have a friend who talked to officers including a Brigadier and a Colonel who are involved in Trials. They are credible as is my friend. Friend is not some childish fanboy and as for that HK-417 well I talked to that guy turns out post is one and a half year old and that guy was wrong for sure but I am right on spot here. The rifles are going for one more winter and may be new AK-15 may also join rifle trials and few other rifles


I am not saying that you are wrong about the trials continuing or about any thing for that matter my friend. I was talking about "how things actually are working", about money and about how the field trials are just "part of the process" and not the process itself!! 
I am sorry to note that you missed that part entirely.
Plus i will still say that Facebook and twitter friends and the friends of your Facebook friends are perhaps THE MOST UNRELIABLE source of information. KINDLY PLEASE NOTE HOW I SAY UNRELIABLE AND NOT WRONG OR FALSE and try and understand the difference.


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## RAMPAGE

AK-12 chambered in 7.62x39. I wonder why Kalashnikov Concern didn't send this one instead of AK-103.


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## Zarvan

RAMPAGE said:


> AK-12 chambered in 7.62x39. I wonder why Kalashnikov Concern didn't send this one instead of AK-103.



I don't think the 7.62 X 39 version is fully ready yet in fact they have also totally changed the 5.56 x 39 version. The recent exhibition called Army exhibition in Russia has revealed completely new AK-12 which is 5.56 x 39 caliber and also AK-15 which is 7.62 x 39 caliber.

*BREAKING: Kalashnikov Concern Discontinues AK-12, Replaces It with… The New AK-12!*





The AK-12 is dead. Long live the AK-12! That’s the song Kalashnikov Concern is singing this week at the recent ARMY 2016 expo in Moscow, Russia. The radical AK-12 prototypes that have dominated Kalashnikov’s press over the past two years are gone, replaced by a more conservative rifle – also called “AK-12” – based on the Concern’s previous AK-400 prototypes. The new rifle addresses the Russian Army’s concerns regarding the AK-12’s cost and issues in fully automatic fire, an anonymous source told TFB, and is expected to be much cheaper to build than the previous model. It incorporates many of the same improvements developed for the previous AK-12 model, but improves the strength and resilience of some of the components.











The new AK-12’s design shares more in common with the existing AK-74 than its predecessor, but it will not be a retrofit to existing rifles, the source said. Several improvements were made to the rifle’s receiver, such as an improved and far more rigid top cover interface and a new free-floated barrel. The new AK-12 reportedly outperforms the existing AK-74 by at least the margin requested by the Russian government. The 5.45x39mm AK-12 appears to also be accompanied by the 7.62x39mm caliber AK-15, evidently of similar design.




The 7.62x39mm AK-15.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...oncern-discontinues-ak-12-replaces-new-ak-12/


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## Zarvan




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## That Guy

balixd said:


> BUT BUT BUT!!!!!!!! ........ i thought SCAR was best of the best and acing at all the tests --- how could it loose to HK???


Everyone wants the SCAR and Bren, and here I am wanting the Italians to win...it's lonely being the only one supporting the ARX


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## Arsalan

That Guy said:


> Everyone wants the SCAR and Bren, and here I am wanting the Italians to win...it's lonely being the only one supporting the ARX


ARX is a great platform as well. 
At the end of the day it will be about who brings the most to the table. May be Italians come up with much more lucrative offer and that will be enough to persuade the army guys. For me, performance wise, there is no generation gap in three four guns out there in trials and at the end it will be about a better business deal/offer/opportunity!

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## The Eagle

Whether it is going to be SCAR or not but IMO, one thing for sure, it wouldn't be about the Rifle alone but the bonuses including the package for Rifle, for example, if we go all for Italian, I am expecting something for other departments as well. It is always to avail the opportunity and not to miss such chance.

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## Zarvan

I am also interested in knowing whether if we select SCAR or Berreta or CZ or may be SIG we would produce 7.62 X 51 versions or all caliber will be produced. @balixd


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## Amaa'n

Zarvan said:


> I am also interested in knowing whether if we select SCAR or Berreta or CZ or may be SIG we would produce 7.62 X 51 versions or all caliber will be produced. @balixd


it is easier to say then do in reality --- the lower remains the same in all calibers otherwise Upper is completely different, bolt carrier, gas block, Barrel --- hence separate machinery will be required for each part infact separate production lines ---

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## Army research

balixd said:


> it is easier to say then do in reality --- the lower remains the same in all calibers otherwise Upper is completely different, bolt carrier, gas block, Barrel --- hence separate machinery will be required for each part infact separate production lines ---


Buy if we score a big order and right to sell the gun or components making all calibers would be great to sell and also can arm our own say spec ops with 5.56 , police CT units etc


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## Zarvan

Army research said:


> Buy if we score a big order and right to sell the gun or components making all calibers would be great to sell and also can arm our own say spec ops with 5.56 , police CT units etc


The kind of up gradation we are doing at POF I won't be surprised that we soon produce two or more Gun series for example all calibers of SCAR and SIG


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## Army research

Two gun of same purpose highly unlikely , one gun different call and mods eg cqb battle etc likely 


Zarvan said:


> The kind of up gradation we are doing at POF I won't be surprised that we soon produce two or more Gun series for example all calibers of SCAR and SIG


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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> The kind of up gradation we are doing at POF I won't be surprised that we soon produce two or more Gun series for example all calibers of SCAR and SIG


What exactly is the "kind of up gradation" we are doing at POF if you can shed some light on that.


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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> What exactly is the "kind of up gradation" we are doing at POF if you can shed some light on that.


We are buying different machinery from Turkey and Italy for increase in production and also quality improvement I don't know exact details.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Chacha Zarvan 


Rifles under trial with SSW?

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## Zarvan

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Chacha Zarvan
> 
> 
> Rifles under trial with SSW?
> View attachment 335745


Sir G I already posted this picture here on this thread. In fact I posted it about a month ago


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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> We are buying different machinery from Turkey and Italy for increase in production and also quality improvement I don't know exact details.


I do know a few details sir, i was born there, i lived 26 years of my life there. All my friends, school and college fellows live there and quite a few of them even work there now. That is why i asked you the question since i often hear you mentioning "the kind of up-gradation" that we are doing. There are some things that are actually happening at POF these days but then there are quite a few that are merely wishes!

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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> I do know a few details sir, i was born there, i lived 26 years of my life there. All my friends, school and college fellows live there and quite a few of them even work there now. That is why i asked you the question since i often hear you mentioning "the kind of up-gradation" that we are doing. There are some things that are actually happening at POF these days but then there are quite a few that are merely wishes!


The contracts were signed recently so the work at POF has to begun and it would take few months. But by the time we would select new rifle POF would be ready for


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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> The contracts were signed recently so the work at POF has to begun and it would take few months. But by the time we would select new rifle POF would be ready for


I am just saying that i have some idea about that kind of up gradations and the contracts and what they will be adding. Again, a lot of what you said or is being said here is actually happening but then again there is a lot that is merely based on wishes as well. Just saying.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Arsalan said:


> I do know a few details sir, i was born there, i lived 26 years of my life there. All my friends, school and college fellows live there and quite a few of them even work there now. That is why i asked you the question since i often hear you mentioning "the kind of up-gradation" that we are doing. There are some things that are actually happening at POF these days but then there are quite a few that are merely wishes!


I know some kind of agreement had been signed with an Italian manufacturing company Sir Meccanica, which specializes in providing machinery for factories. 

http://quwa.org/2016/06/06/pakistan-ordnance-factories-italian-firm-sign-mou/

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## Arsalan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I know some kind of agreement had been signed with an Italian manufacturing company Sir Meccanica, which specializes in providing machinery for factories.
> 
> http://quwa.org/2016/06/06/pakistan-ordnance-factories-italian-firm-sign-mou/


it is true sir. So are SOME of the things being said about the upgradation these machinery will bring in but as i said, quite a few of these things are governed more by wishes than the actual knowledge of what machinery is bein upgraded and what good will it bring.

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## Zarvan



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## Army research

That's a g3a3 with picanty rails and scope but question why are these models not wide spread in the army ??? Like right know when Turkish clf visited people holding crummy widen furniture g3 whyyyy any one care to explain I mean com on how much more would it cost to add picanty and just a basic foregrip or is it that for current modern needs we will only use type 56 , and also could we be purchasing the 7.62 39 version of Beretta since the armed forces like it Alot now and are quite used to it now ?

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## AbdulRehman Qureshi

Army research said:


> That's a g3a3 with picanty rails and scope but question why are these models not wide spread in the army ??? Like right know when Turkish clf visited people holding crummy widen furniture g3 whyyyy any one care to explain I mean com on how much more would it cost to add picanty and just a basic foregrip or is it that for current modern needs we will only use type 56 , and also could we be purchasing the 7.62 39 version of Beretta since the armed forces like it Alot now and are quite used to it now ?


Yarr you wrote com spell mistake :ROFL:

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


>


Zarvan am i to assume this picture keeps equilibrium with you? The G3 will cause you a seizure but the girl holding it will reverse that affect?? or am i over thinking it!

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## AbdulRehman Qureshi

Path-Finder said:


> Zarvan am i to assume this picture keeps equilibrium with you? The G3 will cause you a seizure but the girl holding it will reverse that affect?? or am i over thinking it!



Its not am. Its aim


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## Path-Finder

AbdulRehman Qureshi said:


> Its not am. Its aim


clearly English is not your strong point

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Zarvan am i to assume this picture keeps equilibrium with you? The G3 will cause you a seizure but the girl holding it will reverse that affect?? or am i over thinking it!


I just found the good picture of G3 so posted it because G3 is being used as reference but G3 is way to big and also this model half kg heavier than previous ones


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## Zarvan

This video is must watch for every one. Second product being shown is new AK-12. Russia has stopped developing the intial AK-12 version which was revealed and shown for really long time and now this version is being shown to the world and would be produced and it's going in trials phase. If we are opting for two rifles or sooner or later after G3 we want our Type 56 replaced also this new Toy could be the option
@balixd @Arsalan @RAMPAGE @Horus @Sulman Badshah @Tipu7






The latest development of the AK12 was presented in 5.45mm caliber and the 7.62mm caliber variant named AK15. The AK-12 uses the same gas-operated long-stroke piston system of previous Kalashnikov rifles, but many features are radically different from other guns in its family.

The stock is telescoping and in-line with the barrel for better recoil control. It also features a stock latch on the stock itself, allowing for it to be folded to either side of the rifle. It has a rubber height-adjustable cheek piece and butt plate. 

The cocking handle is moved forward and can be attached to both sides for ambidextrous use. The receiver is hinged and more rigid with a Picatinny rail for mounting optics. There are several other accessory rails on the weapon, including on both sides and the bottom of the handguard, on top of the handguard (in-line with the receiver for a longer monolithic rail), and on top of the gas block.

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## That Guy

Zarvan said:


> This video is must watch for every one. Second product being shown is new AK-12. Russia has stopped developing the intial AK-12 version which was revealed and shown for really long time and now this version is being shown to the world and would be produced and it's going in trials phase. If we are opting for two rifles or sooner or later after G3 we want our Type 56 replaced also this new Toy could be the option
> @balixd @Arsalan @RAMPAGE @Horus @Sulman Badshah @Tipu7
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The latest development of the AK12 was presented in 5.45mm caliber and the 7.62mm caliber variant named AK15. The AK-12 uses the same gas-operated long-stroke piston system of previous Kalashnikov rifles, but many features are radically different from other guns in its family.
> 
> The stock is telescoping and in-line with the barrel for better recoil control. It also features a stock latch on the stock itself, allowing for it to be folded to either side of the rifle. It has a rubber height-adjustable cheek piece and butt plate.
> 
> The cocking handle is moved forward and can be attached to both sides for ambidextrous use. The receiver is hinged and more rigid with a Picatinny rail for mounting optics. There are several other accessory rails on the weapon, including on both sides and the bottom of the handguard, on top of the handguard (in-line with the receiver for a longer monolithic rail), and on top of the gas block.


@Bilal Khan (Quwa) 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the current competitions is for two calibers, right? This would indicate that both the G3 battle rifle, and its current standard issue assault rifle are being replaced. If that's the case, the Type 56 is already been considered for replacement by this very competition.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

That Guy said:


> @Bilal Khan (Quwa)
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but the current competitions is for two calibers, right? This would indicate that both the G3 battle rifle, and its current standard issue assault rifle are being replaced. If that's the case, the Type 56 is already been considered for replacement by this very competition.


To be honest, I can only speculate. I would imagine so considering that a new 7.62x39mm design would provide valuable benefits in terms of reduced weight. But the majority of the designs that were being evaluated initially were 7.62x51mm (with AK-103 and BREN-2 being x39).


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## Zarvan

That Guy said:


> @Bilal Khan (Quwa)
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but the current competitions is for two calibers, right? This would indicate that both the G3 battle rifle, and its current standard issue assault rifle are being replaced. If that's the case, the Type 56 is already been considered for replacement by this very competition.


Well I don't know whether we have decided to go for two Guns or not but I am hoping for it and that for 7.62 X 51 we select SCAR and for 7.62 x 39 instead of going for 25 year old AK-103 it's time we test these

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## Michael Corleone

All of these are real good deal but out of respect and fanboyingness I go with klashnikovs and baretta

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## Zarvan

Mohammed Khaled said:


> All of these are real good deal but out of respect and fanboyingness I go with klashnikovs and baretta


Berreta no doubt is great weapon and as for AK even if SCAR or BERRETA or CZ is selected one AK would also come sooner or later. AK is like F-16 of our Army How ???? Well even if we get SU-35 or EFT still PAF would continue to buy old and new F-16 also same goes for AK. Even with getting SCAR or Berreta still we would go for one AK also.

@Arsalan @balixd

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## Army research

Zarvan said:


> Berreta no doubt is great weapon and as for AK even if SCAR or BERRETA or CZ is selected one AK would also come sooner or later. AK is like F-16 of our Army How ???? Well even if we get SU-35 or EFT still PAF would continue to buy old and new F-16 also same goes for AK. Even with getting SCAR still we would go for one AK also


AK like f 16 got me anyways I believe Beretta is likely to be chosen as italian minister has said goo stuff on Kashmir their defence minister visited up gradation of. Pof by Italians all lead to Beretta

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## Path-Finder

I thought I share this as Beretta and Steiner are a unibody great showing of ARX200!

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> I thought I share this as Beretta and Steiner are a unibody great showing of ARX200!


Nice but the guy who is walking and shooting is destroying the whole video and giving bad impression of the Rifle. He can't handle the rifle


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Nice but the guy who is walking and shooting is destroying the whole video and giving bad impression of the Rifle. He can't handle the rifle


had he been holding a SCAR!!! then all would have been well. Unfortunately neither of us will hold a SCAR or a ARX200 so let the pro's do their thing as they see fit and keep our bias to ourselves!!!

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> had he been holding a SCAR!!! then all would have been well. Unfortunately neither of us will hold a SCAR or a ARX200 so let the pro's do their thing as they see fit and keep our bias to ourselves!!!


Look How gun is moving in his hands. He is not properly handling the Gun Berreta doesn't have much recoil but in that scene the way Guy is handling the rifle the recoil gets 100 times more.

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Look How gun is moving in his hands. He is not properly handling the Gun Berreta doesn't have much recoil but in that scene the way Guy is handling the rifle the recoil gets 100 times more.


Zarvan! the guy is a pro unless actors were used but highly unlikely! I am not one unless you are? Furthermore the bias for anything other than SCAR is becoming ever more childish and very very boring now!


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Zarvan! the guy is a pro unless actors were used but highly unlikely! I am not one unless you are? Furthermore the bias for anything other than SCAR is becoming ever more childish and very very boring now!


I am saying is very less recoil that is a quality which a Gun can have but the guy way he is firing the Gun it shows lot more recoil. Sorry I doubt this guy is a pro


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> I am saying is very less recoil that is a quality which a Gun can have but the guy way he is firing the Gun it shows lot more recoil. Sorry I doubt this guy is a pro


Zarvan are you on the payroll for Fabrique National? this bias of yours knows no bounds honestly. You have never fired it and what you keep picking on, you could have done better firing a .308? Dont think so recoilless means reduced recoil not complete absent of recoil!!!


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Zarvan are you on the payroll for Fabrique National? this bias of yours knows no bounds honestly. You have never fired it and what you keep picking on, you could have done better firing a .308? Dont think so recoilless means reduced recoil not complete absent of recoil!!!


Never said less recoil means no recoil but you watch the video again. The way this is so called is firing the Gun it starts feeling like he is going to drop Gun the other guy is handling Gun like a pro but not this bald guy


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Never said less recoil means no recoil but you watch the video again. The way this is so called is firing the Gun it starts feeling like he is going to drop Gun the other guy is handling Gun like a pro but not this bald guy


how is it supposed to be fired? as you know better please tell me as well?? You are on the payroll of FN Herstal, there cannot be another reason for your sudden attack on this one video!!!


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## Path-Finder



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## sohailbarki

That Guy said:


> Everyone wants the SCAR and Bren, and here I am wanting the Italians to win...it's lonely being the only one supporting the ARX


I am with you man.

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## RAMPAGE

So who's supporting the Russian x39 cartridge?


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## Zarvan

RAMPAGE said:


> So who's supporting the Russian x39 cartridge?


I don't think Pakistan will change its primary caliber to x 39 I have serious feeling that we are going to opt for two Rifles. One would be either SCAR or Berreta and one would be some AK either AK-103 or new AK-15. Pakistan have some serious love for AK.


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## RAMPAGE

Zarvan said:


> I don't think Pakistan will change its primary caliber to x 39 I have serious feeling that we are going to opt for two Rifles. One would be either SCAR or Berreta and one would be some AK either AK-103 or new AK-15. Pakistan have some serious love for AK.


Think again and then some more.

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## Zarvan

RAMPAGE said:


> Think again and then some more.


Pakistan has always stick to 7.62 X 51 considers it the most deadly ammo. We also don't believe in just injuring the enemy we simply go for killing the enemy for that this caliber is best one. But on the other hand the new plant for 7.62 X 39 which was inaugurated by Raheel Shareef few months ago can change things.


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## PAR 5

Price of a FN SCAR Rifle is around US$4000 per piece (without the accessories)
Price of the Beretta ARX Rifle is around US$38000 per piece (without the accessories)
Price of the AK Russian is around US$650 per piece (without accessories)
Price of Chinese Type 56 II Rifle is around US$130 per piece (without accessories)

Now multiply each of the prices given above with 50,000 to 100,000 units of initial lot to be purchased from the OEM and then take a sit back to see if we have the money to buy which rifle irrespective of its efficacy during or after trials. You may add the prices of accessories such as sling, scope, holographic sight etc later.


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## Zarvan

PAR 5 said:


> Price of a FN SCAR Rifle is around US$4000 per piece (without the accessories)
> Price of the Beretta ARX Rifle is around US$38000 per piece (without the accessories)
> Price of the AK Russian is around US$650 per piece (without accessories)
> Price of Chinese Type 56 II Rifle is around US$130 per piece (without accessories)
> 
> Now multiply each of the prices given above with 50,000 to 100,000 units of initial lot to be purchased from the OEM and then take a sit back to see if we have the money to buy which rifle irrespective of its efficacy during or after trials. You may add the prices of accessories such as sling, scope, holographic sight etc later.


Friend talked to really senior Army Guys and asked them about this money and they looked actually not really happy on this question. Their answer was that money is not the issue and every calculation was made before starting trials. In other words they didn't woke up one day and said to themselves "Hey let's go for rifle trials" and next day they were having rifle trials. Also they knew How much a rifle would cost and what are prices of these rifles before inviting them for the competition so price is not the issue the question is which rifle would perform best. The delay is not that think are trying to get price reduced the issue coming is when it comes to accuracy G3 is still best but in other aspects other rifles are good. So Pakistan wants to have some more trials before taking final decision


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## khanasifm

French just selected hk416 dumping bullpop design and first foreign weapon for French army


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## Army research

Received Intel from insider that , I don't know whether you guys already know or not , Beretta still in testing and has quite the chance in all aspects

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

This is from April 2016, but a major Italian business delegation had visited Pakistan to explore investment opportunities. This group was comprised of senior officials (e.g. directors, VPs, etc) from a number of big Italian firms including, among others, Beretta, Leonardo Helicopters, and Elettronica (maker of ECM/EW equipment for fighter aircraft).

http://www.radio.gov.pk/22-Apr-2016/italian-businessmen-keen-to-invest-in-pakistan

It is a big deal if leading officials from these entities decided to make a trip down to Pakistan, only to have a follow-on visit from the Italian MoD in recent weeks (right in the middle of a guilt-trip driven tension with India). If I were a statesman, the last thing I would want to do is respond to such overtures negatively. 

@Arsalan @That Guy @Zarvan

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## Path-Finder

Army research said:


> Received Intel from insider that , I don't know whether you guys already know or not , Beretta still in testing and has quite the chance in all aspects





Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> This is from April 2016, but a major Italian business delegation had visited Pakistan to explore investment opportunities. This group was comprised of senior officials (e.g. directors, VPs, etc) from a number of big Italian firms including, among others, Beretta, Leonardo Helicopters, and Elettronica (maker of ECM/EW equipment for fighter aircraft).
> 
> http://www.radio.gov.pk/22-Apr-2016/italian-businessmen-keen-to-invest-in-pakistan
> 
> It is a big deal if leading officials from these entities decided to make a trip down to Pakistan, only to have a follow-on visit from the Italian MoD in recent weeks (right in the middle of a guilt-trip driven tension with India). If I were a statesman, the last thing I would want to do is respond to such overtures negatively.
> 
> @Arsalan @That Guy @Zarvan


That is music to my ears I am violently vouching for Beretta No but all jokes aside I am hoping and praying that SCAR does not win and Beretta is selected due to the accessories that come with Beretta as a company like optics for example. secondly Beretta can open the way for many other Italian defence procurements as well. Where as SCAR is just a rifle and now we are finding out with some serious unfortunate defects associated with the rifle are coming to surface.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Path-Finder said:


> That is music to my ears I am violently vouching for Beretta No but all jokes aside I am hoping and praying that SCAR does not win and Beretta is selected due to the accessories that come with Beretta as a company like optics for example. secondly Beretta can open the way for many other Italian defence procurements as well. Where as SCAR is just a rifle and now we are finding out with some serious unfortunate defects associated with the rifle are coming to surface.


I wouldn't look at the rifle in as much as the vendor. In other words, even if SCAR was a critically defective rifle, I would ask "is FN able to go back to the design room and pump out an improved version in short order?" This iterative cycle is critical because it seems to me that there are no truly perfect rifles in the running; with each trial the Pakistan Army will have feedback, and then in subsequent years (after long-term usage) the Army will have more feedback, and so on. In other words, we're not just buying a rifle, we're entering into a partnership.

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## Gryphon

Trials have run a little too long.


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> That is music to my ears I am violently vouching for Beretta No but all jokes aside I am hoping and praying that SCAR does not win and Beretta is selected due to the accessories that come with Beretta as a company like optics for example. secondly Beretta can open the way for many other Italian defence procurements as well. Where as SCAR is just a rifle and now we are finding out with some serious unfortunate defects associated with the rifle are coming to surface.


First of all no defects have come forward in SCAR in our trials. Secondly no rifle is coming with optics. We have to buy optics separately and I see optics from within Pakistan and Turkey but not from Europe. As for these buissesman they have nothing to do with defence matters.


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## That Guy

Zarvan said:


> First of all no defects have come forward in SCAR in our trials. Secondly no rifle is coming with optics. We have to buy optics separately and I see optics from within Pakistan and Turkey but not from Europe. As for these businessman they have nothing to do with defence matters.


The defects are mainly from the L version of the SCAR, so its not a surprise that you haven't heard anything about defects. Having said that, it's not a guarantee that any such defects would be reported to the public, and would probably be kept under lock and key, until the trials are complete, so as to discourage other competitors from trying to sabotage or take advantage of these issue, in their favor.

@Path-Finder I believe Pakistan already has a few domestic vendors that can provide solutions for PA's optic needs.


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> First of all no defects have come forward in SCAR in our trials. Secondly no rifle is coming with optics. We have to buy optics separately and I see optics from within Pakistan and Turkey but not from Europe. As for these buissesman they have nothing to do with defence matters.


Zarvan why do you get so emotional on a bloody rifle? I made that post as a bait and you bit it! Honestly you really think buying separate optics will be cheaper rather than getting as a bulk price? are you more intelligent than the PA decision makers? is the money coming out of your pocket?



That Guy said:


> @Path-Finder I believe Pakistan already has a few domestic vendors that can provide solutions for PA's optic needs.


my one and only reason for mentioning the optics is because Steiner is owned by Beretta and they make fine optics, now if there could be a deal that where rifle plus accessories also has Steiner optics then that has to be deal worth considering. i posted a video of the new Steiner offering which would be great 'if' offered as part of this deal!

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## RAMPAGE

Bhaio mujhay nahi pata bas Israel sai MEPRO MOR pakar lou ya phir IoP/Shibli sai reverse engineer karwalo.


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Zarvan why do you get so emotional on a bloody rifle? I made that post as a bait and you bit it! Honestly you really think buying separate optics will be cheaper rather than getting as a bulk price? are you more intelligent than the PA decision makers? is the money coming out of your pocket?
> 
> my one and only reason for mentioning the optics is because Steiner is owned by Beretta and they make fine optics, now if there could be a deal that where rifle plus accessories also has Steiner optics then that has to be deal worth considering. i posted a video of the new Steiner offering which would be great 'if' offered as part of this deal!


I am not emotional I am just telling about what I get from source. Other countries who faced defects could have been using SCAR L and that for sure has issues but we are testing SCAR H and it is doing great in trials. Now as for optics no Rifle is coming up with Optics. We would have select Optics separately. No rifle is offering optics as well. I think for optics Italy and Turkey along with our own Shelbi can be great sources.


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> I am not emotional I am just telling about what I get from source. Other countries who faced defects could have been using SCAR L and that for sure has issues but we are testing SCAR H and it is doing great in trials. Now as for optics no Rifle is coming up with Optics. We would have select Optics separately. No rifle is offering optics as well. I think for optics Italy and Turkey along with our own Shelbi can be great sources.



Doing Great in trials? so is Beretta, Zastava and Kalashnikov Concern!!! If issues exist with L then what are the chances that same may not exist with H as well? These issues have yet not surfaced either? do you have solid proof of it? are you going to ask FN Herstal? 

Optics are a very precise and delicate engineering science. Now Pakistan does not have a history of making sophisticated modern electronic sights. The kind that are in the league of aimpoint among other vendors. You say Italy for optics well that is what I said and yet your clouded judgement did not ponder Steiner is the Italian optic as Steiner is owned by Italian Beretta!!! I have said this many times and few pages back you lashed out on the video of the optic I posted, Remember? Turkish optics are new on the market and will need to be tested where as established brands already exist.

Shelbi? Shibli? make Thermal sights unless they now make rifle sights as well then no they only specialise in thermal imagining 

Zarvan sorry but you are VERY VERY Emotional.

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## That Guy

Path-Finder said:


> Doing Great in trials? so is Beretta, Zastava and Kalashnikov Concern!!! If issues exist with L then what are the chances that same may not exist with H as well? These issues have yet not surfaced either? do you have solid proof of it? are you going to ask FN Herstal?
> 
> Optics are a very precise and delicate engineering science. Now Pakistan does not have a history of making sophisticated modern electronic sights. The kind that are in the league of aimpoint among other vendors. You say Italy for optics well that is what I said and yet your clouded judgement did not ponder Steiner is the Italian optic as Steiner is owned by Italian Beretta!!! I have said this many times and few pages back you lashed out on the video of the optic I posted, Remember? Turkish optics are new on the market and will need to be tested where as established brands already exist.
> 
> Shelbi? Shibli? make Thermal sights unless they now make rifle sights as well then no they only specialise in thermal imagining
> 
> Zarvan sorry but you are VERY VERY Emotional.


Calm down, @Zarvan isn't being emotional, he's simply statin his own opinion.

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## Path-Finder

That Guy said:


> Calm down, @Zarvan isn't being emotional, he's simply statin his own opinion.


forgive me but this whole thread is one persons views and other views get shot down. if you go back to page 143 wher is posted this video and the response to it speaks volumes!


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## That Guy

Path-Finder said:


> forgive me but this whole thread is one persons views and other views get shot down. if you go back to page 143 wher is posted this video and the response to it speaks volumes!


A lot of people are presenting different opinions in this sticky thread.

Besides, it doesnt matter what his emotional state is. Don't bring it up again, it just makes your argument appear weaker.


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## Taygibay

LOL @RAMPAGE using a national product as an excuse to post a cutie.
And not just a somewhat suggestive scantily clad cutie but an Israeli one at!!!

You're the great provocateur of these lands, mate!

Good day all, Tay.

P.S.


Path-Finder said:


> I made that post as a bait and you bit it!


Why even do that in the first place?
It's a convo, not a trapping run!

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## Path-Finder

That Guy said:


> A lot of people are presenting different opinions in this sticky thread.
> 
> Besides, it doesnt matter what his emotional state is. Don't bring it up again, it just makes your argument appear weaker.


ok point taken onboard


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Doing Great in trials? so is Beretta, Zastava and Kalashnikov Concern!!! If issues exist with L then what are the chances that same may not exist with H as well? These issues have yet not surfaced either? do you have solid proof of it? are you going to ask FN Herstal?
> 
> Optics are a very precise and delicate engineering science. Now Pakistan does not have a history of making sophisticated modern electronic sights. The kind that are in the league of aimpoint among other vendors. You say Italy for optics well that is what I said and yet your clouded judgement did not ponder Steiner is the Italian optic as Steiner is owned by Italian Beretta!!! I have said this many times and few pages back you lashed out on the video of the optic I posted, Remember? Turkish optics are new on the market and will need to be tested where as established brands already exist.
> 
> Shelbi? Shibli? make Thermal sights unless they now make rifle sights as well then no they only specialise in thermal imagining
> 
> Zarvan sorry but you are VERY VERY Emotional.


SCAR H is doing better than other rifles in trials this is what I know as for optics well the companies you are mentioning would be way expensive and Pakistan is ready to spend money on rifles but not on Scopes that much. So for scopes this Turkish company as vast experience 
http://www.3eeos.com/en/main-page

http://www.aselsan.com.tr/en-us/cap...applications/python-boa-thermal-weapon-sights
ASELSAN is also producing few great products. Also China would definitely have good stuff and we also have good relations with South Korea now


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## RAMPAGE

Taygibay said:


> LOL @RAMPAGE using a national product as an excuse to post a cutie.
> And not just a somewhat suggestive scantily clad cutie but an Israeli one at!!!
> 
> You're the great provocateur of these lands, mate!
> 
> Good day all, Tay.
> 
> P.S.
> 
> Why even do that in the first place?
> It's a convo, not a trapping run!


Those who're provoked by everything Israeli should drown themselves in the Arabian sea. Admiration should be the only thought that should come to mind at the mention of the name Israel.


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## Zarvan

Different optics from Turkish company


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## Arsalan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I wouldn't look at the rifle in as much as the vendor. In other words, even if SCAR was a critically defective rifle, I would ask "is FN able to go back to the design room and pump out an improved version in short order?" This iterative cycle is critical because it seems to me that there are no truly perfect rifles in the running; with each trial the Pakistan Army will have feedback, and then in subsequent years (after long-term usage) the Army will have more feedback, and so on. In other words, we're not just buying a rifle, we're entering into a partnership.


Specially considering that there are now around 3 or may be even four guns that will give relatively similar performance and capabilities, looking at the supplier is getting all more importance.

This is something i have been trying to explain to all the enthusiasts out there, performance is just one single aspect that is being judged. The gun offering better business deal will be the winner!

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## New Resolve

RAMPAGE said:


> Bhaio mujhay nahi pata bas Israel sai MEPRO MOR pakar lou ya phir IoP/Shibli sai reverse engineer karwalo.



Indeed a very hot product and the gun is ok too.

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## Bilal Khan 777

Can anyone update me what caliber was standardized for the competition?


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## Zarvan

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> Can anyone update me what caliber was standardized for the competition?


This is the most strange part we were testing Guns with two calibers I mean 7.62 X 51 and 7.62 x 39. That is why confusion exists


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## Bilal Khan 777

Zarvan said:


> This is the most strange part we were testing Guns with two calibers I mean 7.62 X 51 and 7.62 x 39. That is why confusion exists



Strangely, no bullpup design competing. Earlier I saw mentions of 5.56 as the caliber, but then it seems like no weapons in the run. Please give some input.


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## Zarvan

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> Strangely, no bullpup design competing. Earlier I saw mentions of 5.56 as the caliber, but then it seems like no weapons in the run. Please give some input.








Sir these are the rifles in competition If you can somehow recognize all of them it would be great

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> Strangely, no bullpup design competing. Earlier I saw mentions of 5.56 as the caliber, but then it seems like no weapons in the run. Please give some input.


At this stage it's just 7.62x51 and 7.62x39. But the actual guns being tested are flexible designs, i.e they can be built in variants (e.g. 7.62x51, x39, 5.56 NATO, etc) with very limited additional development cost.

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## Bilal Khan 777

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> At this stage it's just 7.62x51 and 7.62x39. But the actual guns being tested are flexible designs, i.e they can be built in variants (e.g. 7.62x51, x39, 5.56 NATO, etc) with very limited additional development cost.


 Except for the AK, every weapon is expensive. Even with offset and local assembly, cannot come close the budget Pakistan may assign to replace national service rifle. 7.62 NATO and Warsaw seems to be the choice due to local ammo production. There were a lot of negative reviews of 5.56 caliber and its stopping power during waziristan operation. Still, i was hoping to see atleast one bullpup design in the fray but there is none.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> Except for the AK, every weapon is expensive. Even with offset and local assembly, cannot come close the budget Pakistan may assign to replace national service rifle. 7.62 NATO and Warsaw seems to be the choice due to local ammo production. There were a lot of negative reviews of 5.56 caliber and its stopping power during waziristan operation. Still, i was hoping to see atleast one bullpup design in the fray but there is none.


The Turkish MPT-76 and Czech BREN 2 aren't too far from the AK-103 in terms of cost.


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## Army research

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> Except for the AK, every weapon is expensive. Even with offset and local assembly, cannot come close the budget Pakistan may assign to replace national service rifle. 7.62 NATO and Warsaw seems to be the choice due to local ammo production. There were a lot of negative reviews of 5.56 caliber and its stopping power during waziristan operation. Still, i was hoping to see atleast one bullpup design in the fray but there is none.


Sir gee mentioned quite a few times money is not a issue several army sources said they brought the weapons for test after recognizing costs etc

Is it not possible to shift to Warsaw for 51 what's are the differences I mean I after having fired found 39 to be easier in rapid fire


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## Bilal Khan 777

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The Turkish MPT-76 and Czech BREN 2 aren't too far from the AK-103 in terms of cost.


Turkish MKEK has been trialled before by the Army for other weapons and result was unsat.



Army research said:


> Sir gee mentioned quite a few times money is not a issue several army sources said they brought the weapons for test after recognizing costs etc
> 
> Is it not possible to shift to Warsaw for 51 what's are the differences I mean I after having fired found 39 to be easier in rapid fire



Money will always be an issue. It will always be about budget, and a fine balance is to be met. If something works, it will be considered.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> Turkish MKEK has been trialled before by the Army for other weapons and result was unsat.
> 
> 
> 
> Money will always be an issue. It will always be about budget, and a fine balance is to be met. If something works, it will be considered.


@Zarvan


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## Zarvan

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> Turkish MKEK has been trialled before by the Army for other weapons and result was unsat.
> 
> 
> 
> Money will always be an issue. It will always be about budget, and a fine balance is to be met. If something works, it will be considered.


Sir a friend talked to senior Army guys and what he said was money is not the issue. The trials were started after calculating everything and thinking of every scenario. Army Guys didn't woke up one day decided to have rifle trials and next week they were having trials. They knew what they are doing before starting trials.

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## Army research

Zarvan said:


> Sir a friend talked to senior Army guys and what he said was money is not the issue. The trials were started after calculating everything and thinking of every scenario. Army Guys didn't woke up one day decided to have rifle trials and next week they were having trials. They knew what they are doing before starting trials.


Told you @Bilal Khan 777


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## Bilal Khan 777

Army research said:


> Told you @Bilal Khan 777



Pakistan army is used to buying Norinco SMG for 120 USD approx. What makes you think they will spend thousands of dollars each on a service rifle. Multiple that by a million over 5-7 years.

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## Zarvan

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> Pakistan army is used to buying Norinco SMG for 120 USD approx. What makes you think they will spend thousands of dollars each on a service rifle. Multiple that by a million over 5-7 years.


Because times have changed. We even rejected VT4 Chinese Tank as it failed. We are looking for a rifle which we can use for next 35 years at minimum. Pakistan is more than ready to invest in battle rifle only question which rifle would past tests ???

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## Super Falcon

SCAR should be procured no more time should be wasted year ago this started


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## That Guy

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> Pakistan army is used to buying Norinco SMG for 120 USD approx. What makes you think they will spend thousands of dollars each on a service rifle. Multiple that by a million over 5-7 years.


Just a thought, I'd argue it wouldn't be over 5-7, it would be more like 10-15 years (similar to how Israel did with the Tavor).

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

That Guy said:


> Just a thought, I'd argue it wouldn't be over 5-7, it would be more like 10-15 years (similar to how Israel did with the Tavor).


I'd say 15-20+ years. If anything, this rifle program is more about making POF a heavier commercial player via a leading rifle design than promptly replacing the G-3. It is telling that official disclosure of these tests came during a COAS visit to POF.

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## That Guy

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I'd say 15-20+ years. If anything, this rifle program is more about making POF a heavier commercial player via a leading rifle design than promptly replacing the G-3. It is telling that official disclosure of these tests came during a COAS visit to POF.


To me, all the signs point to a winner being announced in november, due to the fact that IDEAS 2016 and the COAS's retirement are both set during that month. I feel that it could be a Kayani moment, when Kayani officially inaugurated the Shahpar just days before retiring.

What do you think?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

That Guy said:


> To me, all the signs point to a winner being announced in november, due to the fact that IDEAS 2016 and the COAS's retirement are both set during that month. I feel that it could be a Kayani moment, when Kayani officially inaugurated the Shahpar just days before retiring.
> 
> What do you think?


Possibly. Would make sense if they want to generate vendor interest in Pakistan, exhibitions are a great place to ink deals.

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## Zarvan

Is this AK-103 ???????????????


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## Army research

Zarvan said:


> Is this AK-103 ???????????????
> View attachment 339957


Could be the 5.57 AK 74



Army research said:


> Could be the 5.57 AK 74


.56*


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## Zarvan

AK-103. @balixd

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## Army research

Zarvan said:


> View attachment 340031
> 
> AK-103. @balixd


AK 12


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## Zarvan

This is interesting can any one explain that in this pic both AK-104 and AK-103 are 7.62 x 39 Caliber so what is the difference in them ???


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## That Guy

Really hope PA doesn't go for an AK design.

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## Army research

That Guy said:


> Really hope PA doesn't go for an AK design.


But AK in large numbers for say Kashmir and western border are favoured by the PA , what do you think ?


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## tyagi

Zarvan said:


> This is interesting can any one explain that in this pic both AK-104 and AK-103 are 7.62 x 39 Caliber so what is the difference in them ???


 Barrel length


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## That Guy

Army research said:


> But AK in large numbers for say Kashmir and western border are favoured by the PA , what do you think ?


Mostly because those areas aren't favorable for the G3; the AK (type 56) was Pakistan's only real alternative option. Now a days, there are better options for Pakistan, the AK is simply outclassed by other rifles.


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## Zarvan

That Guy said:


> Mostly because those areas aren't favorable for the G3; the AK (type 56) was Pakistan's only real alternative option. Now a days, there are better options for Pakistan, the AK is simply outclassed by other rifles.


I think even if SCAR or Berreta or CZ is selected I really think AK-103 or some other AK Gun would also come. Just like our Air Force has special love for F-16 our Army has special love for AK.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

I wonder if the Polish MSBS 762 (7.62x51mm) could enter the competition pool.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/01/13/fabryka-broni-unveils-7-62x51-msbs/


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## That Guy

Zarvan said:


> I think even if SCAR or Berreta or CZ is selected I really think AK-103 or some other AK Gun would also come. Just like our Air Force has special love for F-16 our Army has special love for AK.


I wouldn't really say it's love, more like the best option they had available at the time.

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## Zarvan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I wonder if the Polish MSBS 762 (7.62x51mm) could enter the competition pool.
> 
> http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/01/13/fabryka-broni-unveils-7-62x51-msbs/


I think it's not even being used by Poland I mean it's in designing phase

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## ali_raza

guys anyone atleast leak some pics....its just a gun why soo much secrecy


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## Zarvan

ali_raza said:


> guys anyone atleast leak some pics....its just a gun why soo much secrecy


In this group only Mr @balxid is capable of getting pictures although few pictures from the testing have been posted by me

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## ali_raza

Zarvan said:


> In this group only Mr @balxid is capable of getting pictures although few pictures from the testing have been posted by me


yeah man i know i have seen all the posts of this thread from begining.anyway.hope for the best


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## Arsalan

ali_raza said:


> guys anyone atleast leak some pics....its just a gun why soo much secrecy





Zarvan said:


> In this group only Mr @balxid is capable of getting pictures although few pictures from the testing have been posted by me


Actually there is no field testing going on at the moment, i mean right now, these days!!

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## ali_raza

Arsalan said:


> Actually there is no field testing going on at the moment, i mean right now, these days!!


u mean that its decided??


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## Arsalan

ali_raza said:


> u mean that its decided??


NO!! 
The there will be some field performance evaluation done again in days to come. I am saying that it is not currently going on.

Plus the evaluation of performance will just contribute to a part of final decision making evaluation, other things are currently under consideration but there are no real developments on that front (in negotiations i mean) even though initial offers have already been evaluated.

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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> NO!!
> The there will be some field performance evaluation done again in days to come. I am saying that it is not currently going on.
> 
> Plus the evaluation of performance will just contribute to a part of final decision making evaluation, other things are currently under consideration but there are no real developments on that front (in negotiations i mean) even though initial offers have already been evaluated.


What I know is Guns will go for one more winter trials

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## That Guy

Zarvan said:


> What I know is Guns will go for one more winter trials


Are you certain? Did your source tell you this?

It seems odd that they would go for another winter trial.


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## Zarvan

That Guy said:


> Are you certain? Did your source tell you this?
> 
> It seems odd that they would go for another winter trial.


Yes a friend asked army officers. It seem rifles may go for one more winter trial that is also because many Rifles became part of competition after winter trials were over.

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## Zarvan

That Guy said:


> Are you certain? Did your source tell you this?
> 
> It seems odd that they would go for another winter trial.


Still anything can happen also because if Gun has already performed exceptionally well and Army thinks it's good enough for them they may announce it as winner during IDEAS 2016.


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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> What I know is Guns will go for one more winter trials


All i am saying is that there is no field testing going on right now, at this moment. 



That Guy said:


> Are you certain? Did your source tell you this?
> 
> It seems odd that they would go for another winter trial.


A few parameters are to be reevaluated/evaluated. There are two or three guns that are meeting our requirements and *may be* we are looking for further refine it down to two. After that, other aspects of the deal will be evaluated and then a decision will be made.

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## ali_raza

Arsalan said:


> All i am saying is that there is no field testing going on right now, at this moment.
> 
> 
> A few parameters are to be reevaluated/evaluated. There are two or three guns that are meeting our requirements and *may be* we are looking for further refine it down to two. After that, other aspects of the deal will be evaluated and then a decision will be made.


what i can understand is its all coming down to cost and benefit ratios....which is being evealuated?


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## Arsalan

ali_raza said:


> what i can understand is its all coming down to cost and benefit ratios....which is being evealuated?


Value for money!! 
It is more about who comes up with a better business deal as two/three gins seems to be checking all the right boxes performance wise.

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## ali_raza

Arsalan said:


> Value for money!!
> It is more about who comes up with a better business deal as two/three gins seems to be checking all the right boxes performance wise.


exactly my point.and i think we should try to squeez as much as we can from the vendors.


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## RAMPAGE

Arsalan said:


> Value for money!!
> It is more about who comes up with a better business deal as two/three gins seems to be checking all the right boxes performance wise.


Got anything to report about the calibre preference?


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## Arsalan

RAMPAGE said:


> Got anything to report about the calibre preference?


7.62 is what is being looked at.

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## RAMPAGE

Arsalan said:


> 7.62 is what is being looked at.


NATO?


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## Army research

RAMPAGE said:


> NATO?


OR Warsaw ?


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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> 7.62 is what is being looked at.


The debate is between 7.62 x 51 and 7.62 x 39 @RAMPAGE


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## The Eagle

RAMPAGE said:


> NATO?



Most probably the NATO while looking at the up-gradation standard of POF to NATO with help of Italians.

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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> The debate is between 7.62 x 51 and 7.62 x 39 @RAMPAGE


But he was asking for caliber!

Anyway, if this is what you were asking @RAMPAGE it is likely that both are used in the long run with more numbers in NATO rounds. However *this is just a personal view and nothing based on any reports or discussions*. Will look into it now.


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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> But he was asking for caliber!
> 
> Anyway, if this is what you were asking @RAMPAGE it is likely that both are used in the long run with more numbers in NATO rounds. However *this is just a personal view and nothing based on any reports or discussions*. Will look into it now.


The inauguration of new plant for 7.62 x 39 is the thing which is confusing me


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## Army research

Zarvan said:


> The inauguration of new plant for 7.62 x 39 is the thing which is confusing me


Could be for stationing of and new armed wings big raised for western front / cpec Afghan border etc

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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> The inauguration of new plant for 7.62 x 39 is the thing which is confusing me


Arry what is the confusion? Going for both options will suite us best as far as i can see.

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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> Arry what is the confusion? Going for both options will suite us best as far as i can see.


By the way can you ask your friends and I will try to get info also that CZ 806 which we are testing. Is it 7.62 x 39 which we are testing or we are testing 5.56 but CZ are telling that they can come up with 7.62 x 39 soon ??? @Arsalan


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## Army research

Could be that like air force love of f16 is like army love for AK , and it appears that we may be buying upgraded AK or new AK already the upgraded one is being used extensively having used it my self it is quite nice and is good for the west

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## Zarvan

Army research said:


> Could be that like air force love of f16 is like army love for AK , and it appears that we may be buying upgraded AK or new AK already the upgraded one is being used extensively having used it my self it is quite nice and is good for the west


Well I hope if Pakistan is going for one 7.62 x 51 and one 7.62 x 39 rifle than I hope with SCAR H if CZ 806 BREN is available in 7.62 x 39 and we have tested this version of CZ 806 than I hope it comes instead of AK 103 @RAMPAGE


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## Zarvan

Hands On Colt’s New M.A.R.C. 901 Series


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## Zarvan

Can any one tell which optics are these ???


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> View attachment 341756
> 
> Can any one tell which optics are these ???


https://www.atncorp.com/night-vision-monoculars


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## Zarvan

CZ BREN




SCAR H


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## Army research

I think what ever rifle we get both 5.56 7.62 and in new battle fields with bullet proof jackets instead of giving officer parrabellum 9 mm smgs we give them 5.56 or 7.62 in carbine versions


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## Zarvan

Army research said:


> I think what ever rifle we get both 5.56 7.62 and in new battle fields with bullet proof jackets instead of giving officer parrabellum 9 mm smgs we give them 5.56 or 7.62 in carbine versions


I am pretty sure even if for now we go for one rifle that is 7.62 x 51 whether SCAR or Berreta but sooner or later one 7.62 x 39 caliber rifle would also come. I hope if this CZ Bren is available in 7.62 x 39 caliber and is being tested by Pakistan than I hope this Bren comes as 7.62 x 39 caliber rifle to replace Type 56 instead of AK-103. @RAMPAGE


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## Army research

I was talking about standard units on east where officers get MP5 even on loc instead we can replace these by carbine vs of 5.56

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## PAR 5

Still no decision on this rifle competition!

FN and Beretta are the qualified manufacturers waiting for a final decision expected within this month.

I still have my doubts on this entire excercise

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## Army research

PAR 5 said:


> Still no decision on this rifle competition!
> 
> FN and Beretta are the qualified manufacturers waiting for a final decision expected within this month.
> 
> I still have my doubts on this entire excercise


Let's wait for ideas then some confirm although fingers crossed on Beretta


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## Zarvan

PAR 5 said:


> Still no decision on this rifle competition!
> 
> FN and Beretta are the qualified manufacturers waiting for a final decision expected within this month.
> 
> I still have my doubts on this entire excercise


@balixd Can you confirm this ???????????? @F.O.X @Icarus @Horus. Well that is great news if true because I am really not interested in Serbian and AK-103. I hope we go for SCAR and not entire series. Don't worry rifles are coming let see which one wins so most probably we would hear about the winner during IDEAS or may be we hear about the winner now and deal would be signed during IDEAS. @Arsalan @RAMPAGE


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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> @balixd Can you confirm this ???????????? @F.O.X @Icarus @Horus. Well that is great news if true because I am really not interested in Serbian and AK-103. I hope we go for SCAR and not entire series. Don't worry rifles are coming let see which one wins so most probably we would hear about the winner during IDEAS or may be we hear about the winner now and deal would be signed during IDEAS. @Arsalan @RAMPAGE


what about those winter trials you were talking about. I mean if, as per the quoted post a decision is expected in this month then what about the winter re-evaluation?


CZ have not been that aggressive in their marketting and business proposition. The Italians have followed by FN.

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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> what about those winter trials you were talking about. I mean if, as per the quoted post a decision is expected in this month then what about the winter re-evaluation?
> 
> 
> CZ have not been that aggressive in their marketting and business proposition. The Italians have followed by FN.


Well that is one source but it seem every officer is confused on what leadership is thinking because my friend talked to a Colnonal and a Major

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## Kompromat

SCAR and ARX-200 have been shortlisted. The teams are away for negotiations, a decision expected soon. SCAR has come on top and is offering an AK replacement caliber and transfer of technology. Berreta is doing business with the Indians too so let's see how it goes as ARX-200 is still untested in battle.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

If it's SCAR, we will nickname it ZAR-VAN 762. The meme will live on until the magnetically powered mini rail assault rifles are evaluated.

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## Army research

Horus said:


> SCAR and ARX-200 have been shortlisted. The teams are away for negotiations, a decision expected soon. SCAR has come on top and is offering an AK replacement caliber and transfer of technology. Berreta is doing business with the Indians too so let's see how it goes as ARX-200 is still untested in battle.


@Zarvan if you were right about scar may be su 35 is coming 



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> If it's SCAR, we will nickname it ZAR-VAN 762. The meme will live on until the magnetically powered mini rail assault rifles are evaluated.


Made my day sir

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Seriously, I have a theory. 

The rifle program may have more to do with boosting POF's competitiveness than with replacing all legacy Army rifles, at least short and medium term. The cost of bringing in the production facility may not be much in comparative terms, though cost of rifles could be high if the labour and materials are expensive. In other words, the rifle production and rifle induction are two parallel streams. Pakistan could spend $100m to get a SCAR production line, though spending $1-2b on total re-equipment could be tough. But the production doesn't always have to depend on induction, especially if you have an eye on capturing more of the global market (which is a MoDP goal via the self-sufficiency narrative).

That said, there will be a decent domestic order: SOF, CPEC Security Division, CTD, LCB, elite police units, Marines, etc. That is 50,000+ units, affordable enough and sufficient enough to get local production going. Make a play for the KSA, Latin America and Pacific Asia markets, and POF could be set.

The SCAR 7.62x39 road may be interesting, but with the medium-term aim to create a cheaper SCAR perhaps (@Arsalan your local rifle idea)? This could be a thing as POF gets better and more efficient with production, and as FN and POF jointly figure out getting cheaper materials and designs (only a matter of time)?

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## Sulman Badshah

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Seriously, I have a theory.
> 
> The rifle program may have more to do with boosting POF's competitiveness than with replacing all legacy Army rifles, at least short and medium term. The cost of bringing in the production facility may not be much in comparative terms, though cost of rifles could be high if the labour and materials are expensive. In other words, the rifle production and rifle induction are two parallel streams. Pakistan could spend $100m to get a SCAR production line, though spending $1-2b on total re-equipment could be tough. But the production doesn't always have to depend on induction, especially if you have an eye on capturing more of the global market (which is a MoDP goal via the self-sufficiency narrative).
> 
> That said, there will be a decent domestic order: SOF, CPEC Security Division, CTD, LCB, elite police units, Marines, etc. That is 50,000+ units, affordable enough and sufficient enough to get local production going. Make a play for the KSA, Latin America and Pacific Asia markets, and POF could be set.
> 
> The SCAR 7.62x39 road may be interesting, but with the medium-term aim to create a cheaper SCAR perhaps (@Arsalan your local rifle idea)? This could be a thing as POF gets better and more efficient with production, and as FN and POF jointly figure out getting cheaper materials and designs (only a matter of time)?


FN have just released the new 7.62x39 mm variant ... hosting buttstock similar to scar extendable and foldable ...

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## Zarvan

I think SCAR will come. SCAR not only offers various calibers but also entire TOT. We are also looking for machine gun which FN can offer and in future sniper rifles also

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## Army research

Well even though I like Beretta but if as said before of fn good marketing and if Co production is offered then scar is the best

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## Zarvan



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## Zarvan



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## WaLeEdK2

Zarvan said:


>



You really want the Scar as the service rifle don't you?


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## Zarvan

WaLeEdK2 said:


> You really want the Scar as the service rifle don't you?


Yes I want SCAR to win. It's the best rifle in the world specially SCAR H. It would be great investment. Also safe investment

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## Zarvan



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## Army research

Zarvan said:


>


Hmm those guys are using h and l together


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## Zarvan

Army research said:


> Hmm those guys are using h and l together


The guy standing is either carrying Self Defence version or Carbine version

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## Vergennes

Army research said:


> fn good marketing



FN SUCKS at marketing and when it comes to negociations and offers. @Horus @Zarvan @balixd @The Eagle @Arsalan @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @That Guy @WAJsal @Path-Finder

The "Fabrique Nationale d'Herstal" (propriété de la région Wallonne) offer was immediatly rejected as by the administrative court of Paris (Tribunal administratif de Paris) because of flagrant commercial irregularities in its offer in the tender to replace the FAMAS.
Basically to make it easier,they declared a price of €0 for the first batch then a variable price for each one of the following batches..... The judge considered that in the event that the rifles are bought in one batch,it would violate the article 1 of the code,making the offer unacceptable....

Let's see how things go in Pakistan... if they don't make stupid mistakes..

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## Zarvan

Vergennes said:


> FN SUCKS at marketing and when it comes to negociations and offers. @Horus @Zarvan @balixd @The Eagle @Arsalan @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @That Guy @WAJsal @Path-Finder
> 
> The "Fabrique Nationale d'Herstal" (propriété de la région Wallonne) offer was immediatly rejected as by the administrative court of Paris (Tribunal administratif de Paris) because of flagrant commercial irregularities in its offer in the tender to replace the FAMAS.
> Basically to make it easier,they declared a price of €0 for the first batch then a variable price for each one of the following batches..... The judge considered that in the event that the rifles are bought in one batch,it would violate the article 1 of the code,making the offer unacceptable....
> 
> Let's see how things go in Pakistan... if they don't make stupid mistakes..


Pakistan will get them with TOT. Only first batch will be ordered from Belgium may be 80000 Rifles and by than POF will be prepared to start production and all other rifles will be produced at POF.


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## Path-Finder

Vergennes said:


> FN SUCKS at marketing and when it comes to negociations and offers. @Horus @Zarvan @balixd @The Eagle @Arsalan @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @That Guy @WAJsal @Path-Finder
> 
> The "Fabrique Nationale d'Herstal" (propriété de la région Wallonne) offer was immediatly rejected as by the administrative court of Paris (Tribunal administratif de Paris) because of flagrant commercial irregularities in its offer in the tender to replace the FAMAS.
> Basically to make it easier,they declared a price of €0 for the first batch then a variable price for each one of the following batches..... The judge considered that in the event that the rifles are bought in one batch,it would violate the article 1 of the code,making the offer unacceptable....
> 
> Let's see how things go in Pakistan... if they don't make stupid mistakes..


you will give @Zarvan a cardiac arrest! by the way FAMAS will be replaced by H&K from all units including Foreign Legion?


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## Vergennes

Path-Finder said:


> you will give @Zarvan a cardiac arrest! by the way FAMAS will be replaced by H&K from all units including Foreign Legion?



Let's be honest. I respect our wallon brothers,here is not the problem. But they are total sh*t when it comes to business,if the FN was flemish,it would be more serious.

Every french army units are going to be equipped with it.

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## Zarvan

Vergennes said:


> Let's be honest. I respect our wallon brothers,here is not the problem. But they are total sh*t when it comes to business,if the FN was flemish,it would be more serious.
> 
> Every french army units are going to be equipped with it.
> 
> 
> View attachment 344072​


We didn't tested them. We mainly tested FN SCAR and they performed the best during trials and on 2nd position it was Bereta. Therefore our teams are now negoiating the deal with both. I think SCAR would be finally selected.


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## The Eagle

Vergennes said:


> FN SUCKS at marketing and when it comes to negociations and offers. @Horus @Zarvan @balixd @The Eagle @Arsalan @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @That Guy @WAJsal @Path-Finder
> 
> The "Fabrique Nationale d'Herstal" (propriété de la région Wallonne) offer was immediatly rejected as by the administrative court of Paris (Tribunal administratif de Paris) because of flagrant commercial irregularities in its offer in the tender to replace the FAMAS.
> Basically to make it easier,they declared a price of €0 for the first batch then a variable price for each one of the following batches..... The judge considered that in the event that the rifles are bought in one batch,it would violate the article 1 of the code,making the offer unacceptable....
> 
> Let's see how things go in Pakistan... if they don't make stupid mistakes..



TBH, the offer is main factor in this contract that performance alone is not the criteria. The choice of HK is notable which, as court declared as well, validates the offer factor alongwith performance. It is understood that mere performance is not the criteria and depends upon the package intact however, we may see an attractive package this time with win win for both after all FN learnt it's lesson through the case against HK.

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## Zarvan

As @Horus have told teams are discussing deal with both candidates and I hope Mr Horus would give us the good news soon. I am hoping and praying for SCAR but let see what happens. @balixd


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## Zarvan

FNH Scar Mk.16

Developed exclusively for U.S. special operations forces and the demanding environments they operate in, the Mk16 Special Operations Forces Combat Assault Rifle is a gas-piston operated 5.56 carbine that features a modular design to allow the operator to configure the rifle for specific missions.

The SCAR has two receivers: The lower is constructed of polymer, and the upper receiver is one piece and constructed of aluminum. The SCAR features an integral, uninterrupted Picatinny rail on the top of the aluminium receiver, two removable side rails and a bottom one that can mount any MIL-STD-1913 compliant accessories.

It has a polymer lower receiver with an M16 compatible pistol grip, flared magazine well, and raised area around magazine and bolt release buttons. The front sight flips down for unobstructed use of optics and accessories. The rifle uses a 'tappet' type of closed gas system much like the M1 Carbine while the bolt carrier otherwise resembles the Stoner 63 or Heckler & Koch G36.

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## Sulman Badshah

Vergennes said:


> FN SUCKS at marketing and when it comes to negociations and offers. @Horus @Zarvan @balixd @The Eagle @Arsalan @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @That Guy @WAJsal @Path-Finder
> 
> The "Fabrique Nationale d'Herstal" (propriété de la région Wallonne) offer was immediatly rejected as by the administrative court of Paris (Tribunal administratif de Paris) because of flagrant commercial irregularities in its offer in the tender to replace the FAMAS.
> Basically to make it easier,they declared a price of €0 for the first batch then a variable price for each one of the following batches..... The judge considered that in the event that the rifles are bought in one batch,it would violate the article 1 of the code,making the offer unacceptable....
> 
> Let's see how things go in Pakistan... if they don't make stupid mistakes..


H&K won on replacing Famas right ???


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## Vergennes

Sulman Badshah said:


> H&K won on replacing Famas right ???



They did. Not only H&K won on performances,as its assault rifle fulfilled all our requirements without any exeptions and led the field against the Scar-L,VHS-2,ARX-160,SIG MCX,they made a very competitive offer. @The Eagle

The contract signed with H&K,calls for the supply of 102,000 HK416F 5.56mm x 45 NATO assault rifles, 10,767 HK269F 40mm x 46 grenade launchers, accessories, ammunition, spares and support services over a period of fifteen years,for €140Mn excluding VAT. (Including VAT,it would amount to ~€200Mn.)
We planned to spend between €350Mn and €400Mn.

The HK416F. (F for France,basically,it's a modified version of the new HK416A5.)

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## Zarvan

Vergennes said:


> They did. Not only H&K won on performances,as its assault rifle fulfilled all our requirements without any exeptions and led the field against the Scar-L,VHS-2,ARX-160,SIG MCX,they made a very competitive offer. @The Eagle
> 
> The contract signed with H&K,calls for the supply of 102,000 HK416F 5.56mm x 45 NATO assault rifles, 10,767 HK269F 40mm x 46 grenade launchers, accessories, ammunition, spares and support services over a period of fifteen years,for €140Mn excluding VAT. (Including VAT,it would amount to ~€200Mn.)
> We planned to spend between €350Mn and €400Mn.
> 
> The HK416F. (F for France,basically,it's a modified version of the new HK416A5.)
> 
> 
> View attachment 344303
> 
> View attachment 344306
> 
> View attachment 344308


You are going to get only 102000 Rifles and in over 15 years. Seriously guys ???????????????


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## The Eagle

Vergennes said:


> They did. Not only H&K won on performances,as its assault rifle fulfilled all our requirements without any exeptions and led the field against the Scar-L,VHS-2,ARX-160,SIG MCX,they made a very competitive offer.



With reference to performance of the gun, we have different class weapons here for trails like SCAR-H, ARX-200 leading the trials yet however, as you pointed out as well, it will depend upon the package and offers during negotiation that too within the limits of assigned budget in long terms plan. I hope, it is about ToT and in house production.

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## ali_raza

anything new guys.its just a gun.and people should know


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## Zarvan

ali_raza said:


> anything new guys.its just a gun.and people should know


For soldiers it's like a wife partner and lot more and those who love rifles this is not just rifle we are talking about this is life.


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## ali_raza

Zarvan said:


> For soldiers it's like a wife partner and lot more and those who love rifles this is not just rifle we are talking about this is life.


yeaa u r right


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## Zarvan

New model os SCAR SSR, New stock, New flashbang #*fnscar* #shotshow2015 #fnssr #sniper #dmr

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## Army research

Zarvan said:


> New model os SCAR SSR, New stock, New flashbang #*fnscar* #shotshow2015 #fnssr #sniper #dmr


Flash bang or flash suppressor sir

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## ali_raza

Zarvan said:


> New model os SCAR SSR, New stock, New flashbang #*fnscar* #shotshow2015 #fnssr #sniper #dmr


mashallah.kider kider se nikalte ho scar.fabrique natinale ke pas bi ni hongi itni scars

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## Arsalan

Vergennes said:


> FN SUCKS at marketing and when it comes to negociations and offers. @Horus @Zarvan @balixd @The Eagle @Arsalan @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @That Guy @WAJsal @Path-Finder
> 
> The "Fabrique Nationale d'Herstal" (propriété de la région Wallonne) offer was immediatly rejected as by the administrative court of Paris (Tribunal administratif de Paris) because of flagrant commercial irregularities in its offer in the tender to replace the FAMAS.
> Basically to make it easier,they declared a price of €0 for the first batch then a variable price for each one of the following batches..... The judge considered that in the event that the rifles are bought in one batch,it would violate the article 1 of the code,making the offer unacceptable....
> 
> Let's see how things go in Pakistan... if they don't make stupid mistakes..


Lolz,
well sir good news for FN, OUR judges wont bother such details 

On a serious note, from what i have been hearing so far, it is Beretta who have been the most aggressive with the business proposal offer. Also as i have been saying from quite some time now, the final decision is resting on that offer. The performance evaluation have been done and there are more then one guns which are deemed OK. There MIGHT be some more shootings in winters but mainly it all depends on aggressive marketing and lucrative business offer.

@Zarvan This is NOT a news bro, just what is being said and i will prefer to wait for some more time before more is disclosed by authorities.



Zarvan said:


> Well that is one source but it seem every officer is confused on what leadership is thinking because my friend talked to a Colnonal and a Major


That is why i ALWAYS tell you that what your or anyone's friend have to say after a "talk" with a Colonel or Major is still not news. What he have said may turn out to be true 11 times out of 10 but still that wont be a news but only what is being said, assumptions, speculation. There is this difference.

Anyway, there really isn’t any confusion. I already told you that we won’t be buying ALL AT ONCE and will rather follow a batch wise induction. Also that although the initial claim/news that will be made public is that a decision have been made and the selected gun is to be used to equip all of the army. However in truth the first batch will AGAIN be analyzed (since in numbers) and we may see some modifications/changes going forward. (A total replacement is not likely but not IMPOSSIBLE either). Also that there are a few people, in key positions, who still have some little interest in a local gun. Again, that is not likely either but there WILL BE SOME ATTEMPTS to go down that way. Also the most important thing that in performance, we have MORE THEN ONE guns which are being deemed suitable. Now it is all about business. IT ALWAYS WAS!

Just give it some time and you will get all the details you want.


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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> Lolz,
> well sir good news for FN, OUR judges wont bother such details
> 
> On a serious note, from what i have been hearing so far, it is Beretta who have been the most aggressive with the business proposal offer. Also as i have been saying from quite some time now, the final decision is resting on that offer. The performance evaluation have been done and there are more then one guns which are deemed OK. There MIGHT be some more shootings in winters but mainly it all depends on aggressive marketing and lucrative business offer.
> 
> @Zarvan This is NOT a news bro, just what is being said and i will prefer to wait for some more time before more is disclosed by authorities.
> 
> 
> That is why i ALWAYS tell you that what your or anyone's friend have to say after a "talk" with a Colonel or Major is still not news. What he have said may turn out to be true 11 times out of 10 but still that wont be a news but only what is being said, assumptions, speculation. There is this difference.
> 
> Anyway, there really isn’t any confusion. I already told you that we won’t be buying ALL AT ONCE and will rather follow a batch wise induction. Also that although the initial claim/news that will be made public is that a decision have been made and the selected gun is to be used to equip all of the army. However in truth the first batch will AGAIN be analyzed (since in numbers) and we may see some modifications/changes going forward. (A total replacement is not likely but not IMPOSSIBLE either). Also that there are a few people, in key positions, who still have some little interest in a local gun. Again, that is not likely either but there WILL BE SOME ATTEMPTS to go down that way. Also the most important thing that in performance, we have MORE THEN ONE guns which are being deemed suitable. Now it is all about business. IT ALWAYS WAS!
> 
> Just give it some time and you will get all the details you want.







*CSR™-20*
The Future of Advanced Combat Precision Sniper Rifles

The FN CSR™-20, or Compact Sniper Rifle, is the future of advanced combat precision sniper rifles. Leveraging and improving upon combat-proven architecture of the FN SCAR® family of weapons, the FN CSR™-20 provides a highly reliable, accurate and modular weapon system designed for easy operator and armorer level maintenance. The FN CSR™-20 is chambered in 7.62x51mm, features a sub-MOA, 16-inch, cold hammer-forged, chrome-lined barrel, monolithic aluminum receiver, and non-folding stock with adjustable cheekpiece. _*Product in development.





*MK 20 SSR*
*Get long-range precision and close-in protection.*
Now type-designated as the MK 20 SSR, the FN SCAR® Sniper Support Rifle (SSR) is a tailored design for long-range precision fire applications while also providing capability to fight close in. Based on the MK 17 SCAR® , the SSR is capable of sub-minute of angle accuracy out to and beyond 1,000 yards. The SSR features an extended receiver rail for mounting in-line night vision and thermal devices with standard/sniper optics. It features an enhanced trigger requiring no adjustments that is rugged enough for field use but precise enough for long-range target engagement. The proprietary barrel extension and barrel profile improve accuracy, and the fully-adjustable non folding stock enables the operator to optimize the rifle for firing position and body type. In October 2010, upon successful in-theater combat assessments, the FN SCAR® SSR was granted Milestone C (the acquisition phase associated with fielding/deployment).

What is the difference between above two Sniper Versions of SCAR. The above one was launched recently. @Arsalan 
_

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## Arsalan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Seriously, I have a theory.
> 
> The rifle program may have more to do with boosting POF's competitiveness than with replacing all legacy Army rifles, at least short and medium term. The cost of bringing in the production facility may not be much in comparative terms, though cost of rifles could be high if the labour and materials are expensive. In other words, the rifle production and rifle induction are two parallel streams. Pakistan could spend $100m to get a SCAR production line, though spending $1-2b on total re-equipment could be tough. But the production doesn't always have to depend on induction, especially if you have an eye on capturing more of the global market (which is a MoDP goal via the self-sufficiency narrative).
> 
> That said, there will be a decent domestic order
> 
> : SOF, CPEC Security Division, CTD, LCB, elite police units, Marines, etc. That is 50,000+ units, affordable enough and sufficient enough to get local production going. Make a play for the KSA, Latin America and Pacific Asia markets, and POF could be set.
> 
> The SCAR 7.62x39 road may be interesting, but with the medium-term aim to create a cheaper SCAR perhaps (@Arsalan your local rifle idea)? This could be a thing as POF gets better and more efficient with production, and as FN and POF jointly figure out getting cheaper materials and designs (only a matter of time)?


Well sir it is not actually MY idea.  It is something that SOME people in key decision making posts and people with influence have in mind. I mean, there still are souls our there who will like to pursue an indigenous design. Reasons, i am not sure about but the route/path to that can be exactly same as you mentioned. Get ToT, get the techniques and technology and make some thousand of guns to get that local production going. Apply the ideas and skill acquired from that ToT in making a new design while keeping the line for imported design running for small batch induction in special

 units and for exports. Sounds interesting. The only thing is that the number of people in support of a local gun is not HUGE, they are not likely to have it there way but there surely would be talks and attempts made for that and we will all know about it then.




Zarvan said:


> *CSR™-20*
> The Future of Advanced Combat Precision Sniper Rifles
> 
> The FN CSR™-20, or Compact Sniper Rifle, is the future of advanced combat precision sniper rifles. Leveraging and improving upon combat-proven architecture of the FN SCAR® family of weapons, the FN CSR™-20 provides a highly reliable, accurate and modular weapon system designed for easy operator and armorer level maintenance. The FN CSR™-20 is chambered in 7.62x51mm, features a sub-MOA, 16-inch, cold hammer-forged, chrome-lined barrel, monolithic aluminum receiver, and non-folding stock with adjustable cheekpiece. _*Product in development.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *MK 20 SSR*
> *Get long-range precision and close-in protection.*
> Now type-designated as the MK 20 SSR, the FN SCAR® Sniper Support Rifle (SSR) is a tailored design for long-range precision fire applications while also providing capability to fight close in. Based on the MK 17 SCAR® , the SSR is capable of sub-minute of angle accuracy out to and beyond 1,000 yards. The SSR features an extended receiver rail for mounting in-line night vision and thermal devices with standard/sniper optics. It features an enhanced
> 
> trigger requiring no adjustments that is rugged enough for field use but precise enough for long-range target engagement. The proprietary barrel extension and barrel profile improve accuracy, and the fully-adjustable non folding stock enables the operator to optimize the rifle for firing position and body type. In October 2010, upon successful in-theater combat assessments, the FN SCAR® SSR was granted Milestone C (the acquisition phase associated with fielding/deployment).
> 
> What is the difference between above two Sniper Versions of SCAR. The above one was launched recently. @Arsalan _


Not sure. But MK 20 SSR is being offered to Civilians as well so i would guess it is something related to firing mechanism! Auto vs Semi-Auto etc. Other then that both are Sniper Support Rifles, both are compact and can be used in close combat as well if push comes to shove.

Here, you may find this helpful. It shows the "similarities" and thus you may be able to identify any "differences" (if any in specs)

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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> Well sir it is not actually MY idea.  It is something that SOME people in key decision making posts and people with influence have in mind. I mean, there still are souls our there who will like to pursue an indigenous design. Reasons, i am not sure about but the route/path to that can be exactly same as you mentioned. Get ToT, get the techniques and technology and make some thousand of guns to get that local production going. Apply the ideas and skill acquired from that ToT in making a new design while keeping the line for imported design running for small batch induction in special
> 
> units and for exports. Sounds interesting. The only thing is that the number of people in support of a local gun is not HUGE, they are not likely to have it there way but there surely would be talks and attempts made for that and we will all know about it then.
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure. But MK 20 SSR is being offered to Civilians as well so i would guess it is something related to firing mechanism! Auto vs Semi-Auto etc. Other then that both are Sniper Support Rifles, both are compact and can be used in close combat as well if push comes to shove.
> 
> Here, you may find this helpful. It shows the "similarities" and thus you may be able to identify any "differences" (if any in specs)
> View attachment 344666


Well other members suggest one is DMR and one is Sniper


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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> Well other members suggest one is DMR and one is Sniper


FN calls both as Sniper Support Rifles. But yes i can see how these can be used as DMR but i think both of these will fit in for that role. 
Anyway, have you read the page image i posted above? It will give you some details.


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## RAMPAGE

Tum logon nai sahi koi hateli pai sarson jama rakha hai.  PDF ki tareekh mai itni sources nahi quote hoi hongi 
jitni is thread pai ki gain hain.

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## Army research

Arsalan said:


> FN calls both as Sniper Support Rifles. But yes i can see how these can be used as DMR but i think both of these will fit in for that role.
> Anyway, have you read the page image i posted above? It will give you some details.


Probably one version that's also offered to civilian does not allow suppressors to be attached ?


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## Arsalan

RAMPAGE said:


> Tum logon nai sahi koi hateli pai sarson jama rakha hai.  PDF ki tareekh mai itni sources nahi quote hoi hongi
> jitni is thread pai ki gain hain.


EXACTLY!! 
Tb he tu i have been trying to tone it down but awam is in hyper excited state. 



Army research said:


> Probably one version that's also offered to civilian does not allow suppressors to be attached ?


That can be one difference. The civilian version wont allow suppressors anyway.

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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> EXACTLY!!
> Tb he tu i have been trying to tone it down but awam is in hyper excited state.
> 
> 
> That can be one difference. The civilian version wont allow suppressors anyway.


I just quoted the USA FN website which mainly deals with civilian market but both of these Sniper are available in both Military and Civilian version.


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## Zarvan

@Horus @Arsalan By the way Guys if we select SCAR would we get them with license to export it also. Specially for Military of other countries like KSA ???????


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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> @Horus @Arsalan By the way Guys if we select SCAR would we get them with license to export it also. Specially for Military of other countries like KSA ???????


That is what will determine which gun we eventually opt for. Isn't this what i have been trying to tell you bahi for months now. What else you think i meant when i was using the words "better business proposal"

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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> That is what will determine which gun we eventually opt for. Isn't this what i have been trying to tell you bahi for months now. What else you think i meant when i was using the words "better business proposal"


If we are ready to sell to KSA it should not be issue with Belgium. What I see strange is why would a company give another country right to sell Guns to any other country. When that company it self can make billions why not go for direct sale.


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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> If we are ready to sell to KSA it should not be issue with Belgium. What I see strange is why would a company give another country right to sell Guns to any other country. When that company it self can make billions why not go for direct sale.


Bahi jan, you are still not getting the point and my problem is i have already said more than should have been said. Anyway, wait and watch and the options with the best business offer will secure the deal for Pakistan Army gun replacement. Once that is done the exports are very likely to follow.

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## El Fuego




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## Vergennes

Path-Finder said:


> by the way FAMAS will be replaced by H&K from all units including Foreign Legion?



[I got a precise answer for your question].

Yes,the 416F will replace the FAMAS in the Legion.
The first unit to receive the new 416F will be the 13th Demi-Brigade of Foreign Legion.

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## Path-Finder

Vergennes said:


> [I got a precise answer for your question].
> 
> Yes,the 416F will replace the FAMAS in the Legion.
> The first unit to receive the new 416F will be the 13th Demi-Brigade of Foreign Legion.


excellent! great time to enlist

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## ali_raza

Arsalan said:


> Bahi jan, you are still not getting the point and my problem is i have already said more than should have been said. Anyway, wait and watch and the options with the best business offer will secure the deal for Pakistan Army gun replacement. Once that is done the exports are very likely to follow.


anything new sir


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## Zarvan

ali_raza said:


> anything new sir


We are all waiting ??? Let see what happens

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## ali_raza

Zarvan said:


> We are all waiting ??? Let see what happens


m hopeful for a good choice


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## Thunder.Storm

ARX 200 is coming..


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## Zarvan

Thunder.Storm said:


> ARX 200 is coming..


Your source or wish ???


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## Thunder.Storm

Zarvan said:


> Your source or wish ???


personally i love FN SCAR H&L but approch of italian govt and cost is indicating that ARX 200 has some advantage over FN SCAR(in pakistan case).

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## ali_raza

Thunder.Storm said:


> personally i love FN SCAR H&L but approch of italian govt and cost is indicating that ARX 200 has some advantage over FN SCAR(in pakistan case).


dear talk solid if u got any source plz share it


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## Zarvan

Thunder.Storm said:


> personally i love FN SCAR H&L but approch of italian govt and cost is indicating that ARX 200 has some advantage over FN SCAR(in pakistan case).


SCAR has performed the best in trials according to Mr @Horus. Therefore we should hope the best Gun comes not the 2nd best.

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## Thunder.Storm

Zarvan said:


> SCAR has performed the best in trials according to Mr @Horus. Therefore we should hope the best Gun comes not the 2nd best.


Personally I wish for FN SCAR. But now its up to what they (FN & Berreta) offers and you also know that cost also matters in pak case. By the way do you know about announcement date of the winner rifle.


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## ali_raza

Thunder.Storm said:


> Personally I wish for FN SCAR. But now its up to what they (FN & Berreta) offers and you also know that cost also matters in pak case. By the way do you know about announcement date of the winner rifle.
> 
> 
> Common think about the cost factor and the active marketing of Italy govt, and may be pak will interested in something else too means equipment etc...


lol come on


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## T-123456

Zarvan said:


> Your source or wish ???


So,either the FN-SCAR-H or the Beretta ARX-200?

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## Army research

T-123456 said:


> So,either the FN-SCAR-H or the Beretta ARX-200?


Yup indications towards Beretta but not confirmed could be anything , heck even an indigenous could come up all above discussion is opinion based and we know nothing for sure till next month

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## T-123456

Army research said:


> Yup indications towards Beretta but not confirmed could be anything , heck even an indigenous could come up all above discussion is opinion based and we know nothing for sure till next month


I have read somewhere that those two are left in the race.

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## The Eagle

T-123456 said:


> I have read somewhere that those two are left in the race.



Till last updates, these two (SCAR and ARX-200) are leading the trials now it is second round of selection, called negotiation table that indicates whoever comes up with better offer and attractive package, is going to seal the contract, IMO.

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## Zarvan

T-123456 said:


> So,either the FN-SCAR-H or the Beretta ARX-200?


Yes accordig to Mr @Horus these two are shortlisted and trials are over now talks are taking place. The one with better offer would win the contract. I am praying for SCAR to win it.

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## T-123456

Zarvan said:


> Yes accordig to Mr @Horus these two are shortlisted and trials are over now talks are taking place. The one with better offer would win the contract. I am praying for SCAR to win it.


The better offer will probably come from Beretta,Italians are good it.

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## Army research

T-123456 said:


> The better offer will probably come from Beretta,Italians are good it.


Don't tell that to @Zarvan you will give him a heart attack

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## T-123456

Army research said:


> Don't tell that to @Zarvan you will give him a heart attack


He knows that already.
Its hard to beat the Italians,in such deals.

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## The Eagle

T-123456 said:


> He knows that already.
> Its hard to beat the Italians,in such deals.



Just have a look from post #2260 to #2278 and you will have an idea about current undergoing trials as well as how badly FN failed with respect to Marketing strategy against HK that took the moment in recent French deal @Vergennes . I and many others would agree as well, PA current rifle selection is not just based upon the filed trials & results but it consist of many other bonuses along with the gun including the offer package and ToT as well. Italian are good in this area as well as ARX-200 results but I can assume that FN learnt its lesson in French deal against HK and would be competing with totally different approach that FN cannot afford another fail in securing a contract.

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## Army research

The Eagle said:


> Just have a look from post #2260 to #2278 and you will have an idea about current undergoing trials as well as how badly FN failed with respect to Marketing strategy against HK that took the moment in recent French deal @Vergennes . I and many others would agree as well, PA current rifle selection is not just based upon the filed trials & results but it consist of many other bonuses along with the gun including the offer package and ToT as well. Italian are good in this area as well as ARX-200 results but I can assume that FN learnt its lesson in French deal against HK and would be competing with totally different approach that FN cannot afford another fail in securing a contract.


And failure in French deal gives pk upper hand in negotiations however fingers crossed for arx

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## Path-Finder

Army research said:


> And failure in French deal gives pk upper hand in negotiations however fingers crossed for arx


I really want ARX to win after falling out of favour for SCAR due to a certain member's tenaciously extreme fanboy-ism.

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## The Eagle

Army research said:


> And failure in French deal gives pk upper hand in negotiations however fingers crossed for arx



Well that was on totally different grounds however, the upper hand is with the one that offers contains attractive package. I am sure, the best will be selected not just based upon performance but other things as well that includes ToT that will help us a lot to learn and come up with own solutions in future.

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> I really want ARX to win after falling out of favour for SCAR due to a certain member's tenaciously extreme fanboy-ism.


It performed best in trials so not fanboyism but hard facts and reality.

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## T-123456

The Eagle said:


> Just have a look from post #2260 to #2278 and you will have an idea about current undergoing trials as well as how badly FN failed with respect to Marketing strategy against HK that took the moment in recent French deal @Vergennes . I and many others would agree as well, PA current rifle selection is not just based upon the filed trials & results but it consist of many other bonuses along with the gun including the offer package and ToT as well. Italian are good in this area as well as ARX-200 results but I can assume that FN learnt its lesson in French deal against HK and would be competing with totally different approach that FN cannot afford another fail in securing a contract.


Lets see if FN learnt a lesson.

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## Army research

Both would be good let's hope we get both 5.56 and 7-62 , and replace parrabellum smg for officers with 5.56 , parrabelum useless against bpj


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> It performed best in trials so not fanboyism but hard facts and reality.


nothing is concrete yet and no information is officialy released either regarding the trials all we have is members who provide information about the trials. But the hyper fanboyism exists from page 1 of this thread! please don't tag other people as a reply.


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## Zarvan

Army research said:


> Both would be good let's hope we get both 5.56 and 7-62 , and replace parrabellum smg for officers with 5.56 , parrabelum useless against bpj


Well which ever Gun would it would be entire series. Not just 7.62 X 51 version but all versions would be produced including Sniper and Marksman version. That is why I really hope SCAR wins

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## Zarvan




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## Army research

Zarvan said:


>


Hey could you post some arx pic s?


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## Zarvan

Army research said:


> Hey could you post some arx pic s?


I can produce pics of 5.56 version with soldiers but not 7.62 because it was in development phase when we started testing it




































@Path-Finder @RAMPAGE @Arsalan

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## Zarvan



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## Vergennes

Zarvan said:


>



Of course the pakistani army is testing the ARX-200,but about the ARX-160,the finns tested it and that's what you can read on reddit ;



> User feedback during the evaluations was overwhelmingly negative, the ergonomics especially were disliked. The weapon kept jamming and freezing. The polymer construct of the whole body of the rifle was squeaky when you handled and twisted it in your hands.
> 
> Not to mention the shitty polymer stock cracked during evaluation, not once, but twice... Army dropped it from the evaluations as soon as they possibly could and opted for the FN SCAR-L (which interestingly enough, had none of the problems the ARX-160 had) instead for special forces. HK-416 also got very positive feedback.



https://www.reddit.com/r/MilitaryPorn/comments/3lfill/finnish_soldier_with_experimental_gear_and_a/

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## Basel

T-123456 said:


> He knows that already.
> Its hard to beat the Italians,in such deals.



If that is true then ARX-200 will not the only weapon which will come to Pakistan, there will be other high end systems coming too, because Italy is showing many of it's available systems to Pakistani military and all of those they make too.

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## Path-Finder

Interesting this snippet from the redditt site like;



> Beretta licked up to a few Finnish politicians (including the current defence minister) by offering "assembly" of the ARX-160 by Sako (part of Beretta these days) in Finland.
> 
> Dumb politicians and media that doesn't know jack shit about firearms love the damn thing and have dubbed it as a "super rifle" that would bring jobs to Finland (assembling parts kits basically... lol).
> 
> The army hates the bulky plastic piece of shit and wants nothing to do with it.
> 
> I guess we'll just have to wait and see.



We will have to see if ARX200 is better than 160!







@Zarvan what do you think of this? available in multiple chambering!

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Interesting this snippet from the redditt site like;
> 
> 
> 
> We will have to see if ARX200 is better than 160!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Zarvan what do you think of this? available in multiple chambering!


http://world.guns.ru/assault/ch/nar10-e.html

Read here about it


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## Zarvan



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## Zarvan




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## but-shikan

Zarvan said:


>


Scar is rejected long back in favor of other rifle.


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## Zarvan

but-shikan said:


> Scar is rejected long back in favor of other rifle.


Bro SCAR had performed best. SCAR was way ahead in performance as compared to other rifles. Now talks are taking place for both SCAR and Berreta and first preference is SCAR.

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## but-shikan

Zarvan said:


> Bro SCAR had performed best. SCAR was way ahead in performance as compared to other rifles. Now talks are taking place for both SCAR and Berreta and first preference is SCAR.


Bro mere bachey I am ex PA scar was rejected because of price and TOT....Long back back.

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## Zarvan

but-shikan said:


> Bro mere bachey I am ex PA scar was rejected because of price and TOT....Long back back.


Bro talks are taking place for SCAR as we speak. It was never rejected. We knew about the price before starting the trials.

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## but-shikan

Zarvan said:


> Bro talks are taking place for SCAR as we speak. It was never rejected. We knew about the price before starting the trials.


Price was offered pr quoted 13500 USD and now tell me should we pay that price with service life of 5000 rounds even in semi fire configuration/selection?

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## Zarvan

but-shikan said:


> Price was offered pr quoted 13500 USD and now tell me should we pay that price with service life of 5000 rounds even in semi fire configuration/selection?


Bro first that is not the price secondly with TOT coming it would reduce a lot. SCAR and Berreta are not cheap Rifles but we knew it before we started testing them and now these two shortlisted and talks for both of them are taking place. One would be selected. 13500 USA dollars is definately not the price


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## Path-Finder

but-shikan said:


> Bro mere bachey I am ex PA scar was rejected because of price and TOT....Long back back.


interesting! because some members here have given info about the trials but the info provided was months ago and nothing more has come out regarding current trials. SCAR is a favorite with some members here even fanatically favoured by some but if SCAR is dropped then what rifle is being considered?


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## Vergennes

@Path-Finder @Zarvan @Horus @The Eagle 

Beretta ARX160 with accessories.





160 and 200.






200 (The one Pakistan is testing).






















Click on CC for subtitles. If translation is missing or you don't understand well,ask me to translate a specified part of it...

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## Zarvan

Vergennes said:


> @Path-Finder @Zarvan @Horus @The Eagle
> 
> Beretta ARX160 with accessories.
> 
> View attachment 347734
> 
> 160 and 200.
> 
> View attachment 347735
> 
> 
> 200 (The one Pakistan is testing).
> 
> View attachment 347736
> View attachment 347737
> 
> View attachment 347738
> 
> View attachment 347739
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click on CC for subtitles. If translation is missing or you don't understand well,ask me to translate a specified part of it...



Which ever rifle is selected whether SCAR or Berreta I think all versions would come.


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## Path-Finder

Vergennes said:


> @Path-Finder @Zarvan @Horus @The Eagle
> 
> Beretta ARX160 with accessories.
> 
> View attachment 347734
> 
> 160 and 200.
> 
> View attachment 347735
> 
> 
> 200 (The one Pakistan is testing).
> 
> View attachment 347736
> View attachment 347737
> 
> View attachment 347738
> 
> View attachment 347739
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click on CC for subtitles. If translation is missing or you don't understand well,ask me to translate a specified part of it...


Beretta offers certain 'extras' under the guise of beretta defence technologies, which includes accessories of various kind that makes the standard rifle more advanced. FN is just offering the rifle but it will boil down to whom offers the best deal in a package and honestly its Beretta at present. on a side note Italian defence attaches have frequently been meeting both in Pakistan and Italy and November is here which means IDEAS. Best of luck @Zarvan


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Beretta offers certain 'extras' under the guise of beretta defence technologies, which includes accessories of various kind that makes the standard rifle more advanced. FN is just offering the rifle but it will boil down to whom offers the best deal in a package and honestly its Beretta at present. on a side note Italian defence attaches have frequently been meeting both in Pakistan and Italy and November is here which means IDEAS. Best of luck @Zarvan


FN is offering all the versions. The number of versions SCAR is offering are not being offered by Berreta. From two sniper versions to self defence to carbine and 5.56 and 7.62 versions and also 7.62 x 39. Also we are testing new machine guns and there are lot of chances FN MINIMI 7.62 x 51 version is selected to replace MG3.


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> FN is offering all the versions. The number of versions SCAR is offering are not being offered by Berreta. From two sniper versions to self defence to carbine and 5.56 and 7.62 versions and also 7.62 x 39. Also we are testing new machine guns and there are lot of chances FN MINIMI 7.62 x 51 version is selected to replace MG3.


lets hope IDEAS 2016 we get our answer.


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## Kompromat

hk didn't participate in the tender , here is their stance . 

"Due to the restrictive approval procedures of the German Government and HK's own Compliance guidelines, Heckler & Koch concentrates on NATO-member states and associated countries like Japan, Australia, New Zealand and Switzerland for its product sales".

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## Zarvan

Horus said:


> hk didn't participate in the tender , here is their stance .
> 
> "Due to the restrictive approval procedures of the German Government and HK's own Compliance guidelines, Heckler & Koch concentrates on NATO-member states and associated countries like Japan, Australia, New Zealand and Switzerland for its product sales".


The moment I saw you have replied on this thread my heart started pumping really fast. I thought you just revealed who is the winner.


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> The moment I saw you have replied on this thread my heart started pumping really fast. I thought you just revealed who is the winner.


keep a doctor near you at all times.

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## but-shikan

Path-Finder said:


> interesting! because some members here have given info about the trials but the info provided was months ago and nothing more has come out regarding current trials. SCAR is a favorite with some members here even fanatically favoured by some but if SCAR is dropped then what rifle is being considered?


The will adopt 3 different rifles from AK series to H&K.


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## That Guy

but-shikan said:


> The will adopt 3 different rifles from AK series to H&K.


HK isn't participating in the trials, so no.


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## but-shikan

That Guy said:


> HK isn't participating in the trials, so no.


Backdoor policy A big chance ....mark my words....


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## Rocky rock

ARX-200 has won the Competition news leak. (Y)


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## Zarvan

Rocky rock said:


> ARX-200 has won the Competition news leak. (Y)


What is your source ? @Horus Can you confirm it ?



but-shikan said:


> Backdoor policy A big chance ....mark my words....


Bro HK didn't even participated in the competition. We are not going to induct a Rifle without testing it.


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## Path-Finder

but-shikan said:


> The will adopt 3 different rifles from AK series to H&K.


there are two rifles for two 7.62 calibres unless H&K GPMG is being adopted?



Rocky rock said:


> ARX-200 has won the Competition news leak. (Y)


Very strong possibility as frequent meetings are taking place recently with Italians.


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> there are two rifles for two 7.62 calibres unless H&K GPMG is being adopted?
> 
> 
> Very strong possibility as frequent meetings are taking place recently with Italians.


I seriously can't get it what this But-Shikan is talking about ?? Is he suggesting we are going for more than two 7.62 Caliber Assault Rifles or what ?


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## but-shikan

Zarvan said:


> Bro HK didn't even participated in the competition. We are not going to induct a Rifle without testing it.


Wait and watch and one thing more PA optided for multipal options. They are adopting Ak series and others.


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## Zarvan

but-shikan said:


> Wait and watch and one thing more PA optided for multipal options. They are adopting Ak series and others.


@Horus Is this member right on this one ?

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

FYI ... FN Herstal is _*not *_participating in IDEAS 2016.


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> I seriously can't get it what this But-Shikan is talking about ?? Is he suggesting we are going for more than two 7.62 Caliber Assault Rifles or what ?


 lets hope IDEAS 2016 can put the speculations for the past year to rest and we get the answer we want.



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> FYI ... FN Herstal is _*not *_participating in IDEAS 2016.


this statement speaks volumes!!

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## Kompromat

They are. Three member team, from what i hear.



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> FYI ... FN Herstal is _*not *_participating in IDEAS 2016.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Horus said:


> They are. Three member team, from what i hear.


Is it through a Pakistani agency like Kestral Group?

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## Zarvan




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## Zarvan




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## Zarvan

@balixd Sir G where are you these days ?


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## Zarvan




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## Zarvan




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## Zarvan




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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

I'd be very disappointed if Lyra doesn't come up with a SPC at IDEAS 2018.

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## Zarvan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I'd be very disappointed if Lyra doesn't come up with a SPC at IDEAS 2018.


What are you talking about ?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Zarvan said:


> What are you talking about ?


Scalable Plate Carrier - i.e. current body armour designs.

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## Arsalan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I'd be very disappointed if Lyra doesn't come up with a SPC at IDEAS 2018.


It is highly probable to make it to the show this time. The interesting thing will be to notice whether the army go for a bulk deal. I still feel that we are not in mood to making this a standard issue anytime soon.  It will remain like a few issued to the unit they using it with out going special operations team.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Arsalan said:


> It is highly probable to make it to the show this time. The interesting thing will be to notice whether the army go for a bulk deal. I still feel that we are not in mood to making this a standard issue anytime soon.  It will remain like a few issued to the unit they using it with out going special operations team.


The Lyra 'Combat Bulletproof Jacket' was adopted quite widely, I've seen photos of those in use all throughout Zarb-e-Azb. SPC may be a little riskier to push due to the ergonomic profile, but the combat shirt units - i.e. SOF and LCB - would adopt it, they're already sporting the right fatigues.


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## Arsalan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The Lyra 'Combat Bulletproof Jacket' was adopted quite widely, I've seen photos of those in use all throughout Zarb-e-Azb. SPC may be a little riskier to push due to the ergonomic profile, but the combat shirt units - i.e. SOF and LCB - would adopt it, they're already sporting the right fatigues.


As a standard issue you think? For all personal? That is what i am not so sure about otherwise i do agree that carrier is a good one and will suite us perfectly.


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## Irfan Baloch

Zarvan said:


>


are you aware of any SCAR leaks?

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## Zarvan

Irfan Baloch said:


> are you aware of any SCAR leaks?


What leaks Sir ?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The Lyra 'Combat Bulletproof Jacket' was adopted quite widely, I've seen photos of those in use all throughout Zarb-e-Azb. SPC may be a little riskier to push due to the ergonomic profile, but the combat shirt units - i.e. SOF and LCB - would adopt it, they're already sporting the right fatigues.





Arsalan said:


> As a standard issue you think? For all personal? That is what i am not so sure about otherwise i do agree that carrier is a good one and will suite us perfectly.



Have been watching a new BPJ in large numbers lately











Some more shown at IDEAS 2016... Unfortunatly nobody took the pain to get more pics or info.
https://defence.pk/threads/bullet-p...ads-in-use-of-army.383781/page-5#post-7408499

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## Faiez

agree, rifle should be replaced by new rifle.


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## Zarvan

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Have been watching a new BPJ in large numbers lately
> View attachment 348841
> View attachment 348843
> View attachment 348844
> 
> 
> Some more shown at IDEAS 2016... Unfortunatly nobody took the pain to get more pics or info.
> https://defence.pk/threads/bullet-p...ads-in-use-of-army.383781/page-5#post-7408499


What is this laptop for ?


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## Irfan Baloch

Zarvan said:


> What leaks Sir ?


leaks about the new rifle selection?


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## Faiez

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Have been watching a new BPJ in large numbers lately
> View attachment 348841
> View attachment 348843
> View attachment 348844
> 
> 
> Some more shown at IDEAS 2016... Unfortunatly nobody took the pain to get more pics or info.
> https://defence.pk/threads/bullet-p...ads-in-use-of-army.383781/page-5#post-7408499



uh...how is this a BPJ, and not just a regular jacket for carrying ammo?


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## Zarvan

Irfan Baloch said:


> leaks about the new rifle selection?


No news yet Sir. I am hoping that Mr @Horus would give us the good news soon and hopefully it would be SCAR but personally we would definately hear about the winner at IDEAS 2016 this what I am thinking. This year IDEAS 2016 we can see signing of major deals. I don't have news but my 6th sense suggests that


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Faiez said:


> uh...how is this a BPJ, and not just a regular jacket for carrying ammo?


Those are webbings.. kinda like the US Mole system.

The pockets can be attached or adjusted on the jacket.... You dont have to be a rocket scientist to guess/know that...

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## Faiez

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Those are webbings.. kinda like the US Mole system.
> 
> The pockets can be attached or adjusted on the jacket.



You mean MOLLE ?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Faiez said:


> You mean MOLLE ?



You got the message .. didnt you?

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## pzfz

There's nothing new or top of the line about those vests. They may not even be BPJ unless they are interceptor style side inserts in the front and top inserts in the back. People see MOLLE and think bulletproof. It's just a tacvest people.

But not having a bpj is fine for a scouting party/sniper team. too much weight and you need other equipment.


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## Zarvan

I think if some one can get information about which Rifle is selected before IDEAS 2016 that would be appreciated because it's clear that IDEAS would be used to reveal the winner so which one is it ?


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## That Guy

Zarvan said:


> I think if some one can get information about which Rifle is selected before IDEAS 2016 that would be appreciated because it's clear that IDEAS would be used to reveal the winner so which one is it ?


While I can't say for certain, it is increasingly looking like the Italians have the upper hand. Keep in mind, the SCAR may have done better than the ARX in the trials, but from what I can tell, the difference was so close that it was negligible at best. The Beretta offer will likely be better than the FN offer; from price point to ToT, as the Italians seem to be going all in; whereas FN seems to still be doing a poor job of justifying the price point of their rifle. Pakistan may have calculated that they can "afford to buy the best", that does NOT mean that PA wants to spend a huge amount of money on a rifle that only barely beats out the competitions, all of whom are offering far cheaper price points.

I don't know whether or not a clear winner will be announced by IDEAS (though the chances are high), but we may get an indication of how the negotiations are going.

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Arsalan @Irfan Baloch



but-shikan said:


> Backdoor policy A big chance ....mark my words....


Your words are marked.

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## Arsalan

That Guy said:


> While I can't say for certain, it is increasingly looking like the Italians have the upper hand. Keep in mind, the SCAR may have done better than the ARX in the trials, but from what I can tell, the difference was so close that it was negligible at best.
> .


Actually it havent. From what i have been told, three guns met the required specifications. You know as well i do that such trials are not like a horse race. (though it is being presented as one by few from a few months now) 

Some parameters were set, few specific details were mentioned regarding what we are looking in the new gun, some requirments and features that PA would want. Weight, accuracy, power and reliability for example. Now all guns were tested on all these parameters and 3 guns made it through and checked all boxes with two being slightly better and thus given a priority. Third also not ruled out. Others were dropped alltogether. This is what makes sense as well. I mean, unlike the fanboy stuff, we know that while selecting a tank we wont select the one that runs fastest or shoots the longest distance. Rather we wil ask for a required speed and a required firing range and see what options suite us. Same is happening here and that is why i have been trying my level best to hold back people from claiming that xyz is confirmed as selected and have out classes everything else. That is NOT how the trials were being conducted for crying out loud. What more can i add without breaking a few promises. 

Anyway, now among these three which are most probable down to two, it will be all about business proposal, again, as i have been trying to tell. Italians have a upper hand as they are likely to come with better proposal (consider the POF upgradation work as well) but the PA is damn serious about this one and will not just fall for that proposal and will likely discuss that with FN too. A negotiation process!!! They better option will win.



> The Beretta offer will likely be better than the FN offer; from price point to ToT, as the Italians seem to be going all in; whereas FN seems to still be doing a poor job of justifying the price point of their rifle. Pakistan may have calculated that they can "afford to buy the best", that does NOT mean that PA wants to spend a huge amount of money on a rifle that only barely beats out the competitions, all of whom are offering far cheaper price points.
> 
> I don't know whether or not a clear winner will be announced by IDEAS (though the chances are high), but we may get an indication of how the negotiations are going.
> 
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Arsalan @Irfan Baloch


IDEAS might not announce a clear name but you never know. Things can change in blink of an eye in such cases. All it will take is a business offer we cannot refuse!!!

BTW, Thanks for tagging me. You gave me a chance to try again and say all this once more.

Also i will again point out that though the deal, when announced will mention "guns for whole army" but that is not what the procurement plan is. It will be a step by step and a gradual process and there might be some changes (unlikely to be more than upgrades/modifications but who knows) once the first batch are taken to the field.

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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> Actually it havent. From what i have been told, three guns met the required specifications. You know as well i do that such trials are not like a horse race. (though it is being presented as one by few from a few months now)
> 
> Some parameters were set, few specific details were mentioned regarding what we are looking in the new gun, some requirments and features that PA would want. Weight, accuracy, power and reliability for example. Now all guns were tested on all these parameters and 3 guns made it through and checked all boxes with two being slightly better and thus given a priority. Third also not ruled out. Others were dropped alltogether. This is what makes sense as well. I mean, unlike the fanboy stuff, we know that while selecting a tank we wont select the one that runs fastest or shoots the longest distance. Rather we wil ask for a required speed and a required firing range and see what options suite us. Same is happening here and that is why i have been trying my level best to hold back people from claiming that xyz is confirmed as selected and have out classes everything else. That is NOT how the trials were being conducted for crying out loud. What more can i add without breaking a few promises.
> 
> Anyway, now among these three which are most probable down to two, it will be all about business proposal, again, as i have been trying to tell. Italians have a upper hand as they are likely to come with better proposal (consider the POF upgradation work as well) but the PA is damn serious about this one and will not just fall for that proposal and will likely discuss that with FN too. A negotiation process!!! They better option will win.
> 
> 
> IDEAS might not announce a clear name but you never know. Things can change in blink of an eye in such cases. All it will take is a business offer we cannot refuse!!!
> 
> BTW, Thanks for tagging me. You gave me a chance to try again and say all this once more.
> 
> Also i will again point out that though the deal, when announced will mention "guns for whole army" but that is not what the procurement plan is. It will be a step by step and a gradual process and there might be some changes (unlikely to be more than upgrades/modifications but who knows) once the first batch are taken to the field.


Which three Guns ??? SCAR is 1 than Berreta so which one is third one ???? @Horus @Arsalan


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## Thunder.Storm

ARX is selected. @Zarvan


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## Vergennes

Thunder.Storm said:


> ARX is selected. @Zarvan



Any source ?

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## SQ8

Vergennes said:


> Any source ?


There is no confirmation until officially announced. It is down to price(and kickbacks) now than anything else.

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## Rocky rock

ARX i already told and mark my words for now again.


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## ali_raza

Oscar said:


> There is no confirmation until officially announced. It is down to price(and kickbacks) now than anything else.


kickback thing will surely lead to italians


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## The Eagle

Oscar said:


> There is no confirmation until officially announced. It is down to price(and kickbacks) now than anything else.



I think kickbacks are the part of almost every military deals in the world and I am sure, it wouldn't be, even if there is any, that much this time provided the current check & balance and accountability process. what do you think?


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## SQ8

The Eagle said:


> I think kickbacks are the part of almost every military deals in the world and I am sure, it wouldn't be, even if there is any, that much this time provided the current check & balance and accountability process. what do you think?


They are, but it varies in extent and openness due to checks and balances; and Pakistan has laughable checks and balances despite the current facade representing otherwise.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Oscar said:


> They are, but it varies in extent and openness due to checks and balances; and Pakistan has laughable checks and balances despite the current facade representing otherwise.


How brazen does it get? I know golf club memberships and post-retirement jobs are a common practice in a lot of countries, but I guess that's too classy for Pakistan.


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## SQ8

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> How brazen does it get? I know golf club memberships and post-retirement jobs are a common practice in a lot of countries, but I guess that's too classy for Pakistan.


How about these for free and openly displayed






In one case for the military, one for the father and one for the son.

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## Irfan Baloch

Zarvan said:


> Which three Guns ??? SCAR is 1 than Berreta so which one is third one ???? @Horus @Arsalan








@Arsalan

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## Zarvan

Oscar said:


> How about these for free and openly displayed
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In one case for the military, one for the father and one for the son.


It would be disgusting to see that kickbacks lead us to go for 2nd best. It would be great disservice to our soldiers

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## Irfan Baloch

Rocky rock said:


> ARX i already told and mark my words for now again.

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## Zarvan

Irfan Baloch said:


>


The one in this picture in BREN not ARX.

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## Thorough Pro

every seller knows kickbacks are a reality, hence they are already built in to the price, paid by the state through tax payers money and goes in to the pocket of the person entrusted with that decision/position.


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## Vergennes

Zarvan said:


> The one in this picture in BREN not ARX.



You can see 'Italia' (and an italian flag) on the guy's jacket.
That would be funny to see an italian presenting a czech gun.

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## Thəorətic Muslim

Sometimes 2nd best isn't so bad. Look at the German G36s they can't even shoot straight.

Italian would be the better option considering Pakistan wants to equip it's Army branch, the ARX will be the final "trojan" into the Italian Defense industry. Falco, Westland, potential Salex.

$10 Billion LOC for Italian investment into Pakistan, support for a EU-PAK FTA, 100,000 + Pakistanis already living there, not to mention a great share of raw Pakistan exports end up in Italy for manufacture.

The hands from which Pakistan can buy from without Indian interference is/will continue to dwindle. Start a relationship early and the other person will remember it later on.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Thəorətic Muslim said:


> Sometimes 2nd best isn't so bad. Look at the German G36s they can't even shoot straight.
> 
> Italian would be the better option considering Pakistan wants to equip it's Army branch, the ARX will be the final "trojan" into the Italian Defense industry. Falco, Westland, potential Salex.
> 
> $10 Billion LOC for Italian investment into Pakistan, support for a EU-PAK FTA, 100,000 + Pakistanis already living there, not to mention a great share of raw Pakistan exports end up in Italy for manufacture.
> 
> The hands from which Pakistan can buy from without Indian interference is/will continue to dwindle. Start a relationship early and the other person will remember it later on.


That's a good point. If the product is adequate, then consideration should be paid to strengthening ties with the vendor's government, which could help s later on through credit, immigration, investment, etc.

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## muhammadali233

ARX 160 is already in service with the SSU sindh police

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## Zarvan

muhammadali233 said:


> ARX 160 is already in service with the SSU sindh police


Yes we know it for long time. Question is whether it's going to be selected for Army to or it would be SCAR H


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

Zarvan said:


> Yes we know it for long time. Question is whether it's going to be selected for Army to or it would be SCAR H



SCAR is just too expensive.


----------



## Zarvan

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> SCAR is just too expensive.


Sir trials were started after evaluating everything even this Berreta is not cheap. Army guys didn't woke up one day and went to trials. Every study was made before started trials


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Zarvan said:


> Sir trials were started after evaluating everything even this Berreta is not cheap. Army guys didn't woke up one day and went to trials. Every study was made before started trials



For some reason I'm willing to bet scar isn't coming:

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## Zarvan

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> For some reason I'm willing to bet scar isn't coming:


You are son of an Army Officer I guess !!! so instead of betting get the information Sir


----------



## Thunder.Storm

Vergennes said:


> Any source ?


don't be stupid they will not issue separate letter for me to show here for you just wait for about 2 or three weeks.


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## Zarvan




----------



## Areesh

Zarvan said:


> The one in this picture in BREN not ARX.



Lol its written Italia on his jacket. Why the hell he would be presenting a Czech gun to PA chief.


----------



## Awan68

Oscar said:


> How about these for free and openly displayed
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In one case for the military, one for the father and one for the son.


There is little to no corruption in the pakistani military on "national scale", that is how pakistan ensures such a capable military despite a minute defence budget, that is why we remain at par or ahead of india in many fields in the weapons race, the officers are compensated for it when they are retired by high end appointments in civil institutions, they make up for it there in the civilian sectre...


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## SQ8

Awan68 said:


> There is little to no corruption in the pakistani military on "national scale", that is how pakistan ensures such a capable military despite a minute defence budget, that is why we remain at par or ahead of india in many fields in the weapons race, the officers are compensated for it when they are retired by high end appointments in civil institutions, they make up for it there in the civilian sectre...



Lets agree to disagree

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## Kompromat

SSW has adopted FN-SCAR-H as a replacement for FN-2000.

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## Wolfhound

Horus said:


> SSW has adopted FN-SCAR-H as a replacement for FN-2000.


Does this mean that the Fn Scar is the winner of the trials?


----------



## Areesh

Horus said:


> SSW has adopted FN-SCAR-H as a replacement for FN-2000.



So SCAR has won the competition??

Or only SSW would use SCAR-H??


----------



## Kompromat

SSW is the first to adopt the SCAR. Other services will too. Final decision is still pending, the SCAR has beaten every other rifle.



Areesh said:


> So SCAR has won the competition??
> 
> Or only SSW would use SCAR-H??

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## WaLeEdK2

Horus said:


> SSW is the first to adopt the SCAR. Other services will too. Final decision is still pending, the SCAR has beaten every other rifle.



Will POF get a license to locally manufacture them?


----------



## Kompromat

Yes 

* Local production for domestic demand
* Export license after domestic demand has been satisfied



WaLeEdK2 said:


> Will POF get a license to locally manufacture them?

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## Areesh

Horus said:


> SSW is the first to adopt the SCAR. Other services will too. Final decision is still pending, the SCAR has beaten every other rifle.



So apparently SCAR has been selected. it is just a matter of formal official announcement.


----------



## Kompromat

Our guys were in Belgium for final discussions. I think pricing etc would define it. SCAR by far is the best rifle though.



Areesh said:


> So apparently SCAR has been selected. it is just a matter of formal official announcement.

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## That Guy

Horus said:


> Our guys were in Belgium for final discussions. I think pricing etc would define it. SCAR by far is the best rifle though.


I trust you, but I'm going to wait for the official word on the matter.

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## Irfan Baloch

Awan68 said:


> There is little to no corruption in the pakistani military on "national scale", that is how pakistan ensures such a capable military despite a minute defence budget, that is why we remain at par or ahead of india in many fields in the weapons race, the officers are compensated for it when they are retired by high end appointments in civil institutions, they make up for it there in the civilian sectre...


whenever there is money involved the people in uniform are no different to their civilian counterparts
saying it from insider information
I know its hard to swallow but unfortunately true. yes our combat units have nothing to do with corruption or kickbacks but military is more than the men parading on 23 march.



Zarvan said:


>


he needs to have regular meals and do some exercise
then he will look the part and suitable posing with this gun that appears to be almost 1 fifth of his body mass

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## Path-Finder

Horus said:


> SSW has adopted FN-SCAR-H as a replacement for FN-2000.


SCAR-H or SCAR-L??

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Eminent Mainstream Media said:


> You should see a Gurkha or a Naga charging with 20 inch battle rifle-



You should see a Baloch with a 7 inch sabr..

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## ali_raza

guys we should congratulate @Zarvan here is the final word he was waiting for.scar is selected

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## Path-Finder

ali_raza said:


> guys we should congratulate @Zarvan here is the final word he was waiting for.scar is selected


two people said ARX and One mod says SCAR! I say lets wait and see.

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## Zarvan

ali_raza said:


> guys we should congratulate @Zarvan here is the final word he was waiting for.scar is selected


Yes happy but waiting for final announcement but having a feeling that we may opt for both

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## ali_raza

Zarvan said:


> Yes happy but waiting for final announcement but having a feeling that we may opt for both


i was always hoping for scar.man just look at it it's fantastic.and u were always giving confidence.

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## Path-Finder

ali_raza said:


> i was always hoping for scar.man just look at it it's fantastic.and u were always giving confidence.


i would like to do a slight inteject/objection on the "giving confidence" part!


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## Army research

@Zarvan

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## Zarvan

Army research said:


> @Zarvan


Don't get too excited right now although I am hoping Mr @Horus is right about SCAR getting selected but still we would have to wait for official announcement.

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## Awan68

Irfan Baloch said:


> whenever there is money involved the people in uniform are no different to their civilian counterparts
> saying it from insider information
> I know its hard to swallow but unfortunately true. yes our combat units have nothing to do with corruption or kickbacks but military is more than the men parading on 23 march.
> 
> 
> he needs to have regular meals and do some exercise
> then he will look the part and suitable posing with this gun that appears to be almost 1 fifth of his body mass


Hey buddy im no fanboy nor do i worship things without question, the facts point otherwise, we have a very very limited budget yet the way we remain at par with our counterparts who have abundance of funds is a valid enough argument against supposed kickbacks, yes u may have insider info, yes it may have happened more than once but what im saying is that its not a norm in our army, something that differentiates us from the gentlemen across the border...



Irfan Baloch said:


> whenever there is money involved the people in uniform are no different to their civilian counterparts
> saying it from insider information
> I know its hard to swallow but unfortunately true. yes our combat units have nothing to do with corruption or kickbacks but military is more than the men parading on 23 march.
> 
> 
> he needs to have regular meals and do some exercise
> then he will look the part and suitable posing with this gun that appears to be almost 1 fifth of his body mass


Seems like u have watched too many movies, pak army focuses on a unique mix of strength, agility, flexibilty and stamina to last out there on the battle field, building bulky muscle is good for posing etc yet when it comes to real asskicking all that bulk might just be the very thing that kills u, the battlefield requirements are a whole lot different from ur normal wieght lifting competition dont u agree??


----------



## Sulman Badshah

SSW was testing SCAR L (5.56 variant) ... and why SSW will adopt a 7.62 NATO variant

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## Zarvan

Sulman Badshah said:


> SSW was testing SCAR L (5.56 variant) ... and why SSW will adopt a 7.62 NATO variant


I think they would have tested both. Because they also need for their PAF guys not just SSW. Because every pilot is also trained with Assault Rifle also the engineers. So I think both versions will be chosen by PAF

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## ali_raza

Zarvan said:


> I think they would have tested both. Because they also need for their PAF guys not just SSW. Because every pilot is also trained with Assault Rifle also the engineers. So I think both versions will be chosen by PAF


dear u didn't enquire this??


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## Zarvan

ali_raza said:


> dear u didn't enquire this??


Well I am trying but now as talks are on it's hard to get info. Therefore I am waiting for Mr @Horus to give is good news or it would be announced at IDEAS 2016.

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## imadul

Horus said:


> SSW is the first to adopt the SCAR. Other services will too. Final decision is still pending, the SCAR has beaten every other rifle.


I have read some but not all posts regarding PA new assualt rifle! I am quiet disappointed POF cant produce a modern gun for PA. G3 is decades old weapon, why no new version. Is there no r&d at POF. We are making JF-17, more than 50%, A bombs, missile, but we cant make a suitable gun for PA? CAN someone explain this to this bloody civilian?


----------



## ali_raza

Zarvan said:


> Well I am trying but now as talks are on it's hard to get info. Therefore I am waiting for Mr @Horus to give is good news or it would be announced at IDEAS 2016.


and @Horus already told us


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## Zarvan

ali_raza said:


> and @Horus already told us


Yes he told about SSW but not Army and Navy including Marines. We have to wait for that. SSW is already using Belgium made weapons.

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## ali_raza

Zarvan said:


> Yes he told about SSW but not Army and Navy including Marines. We have to wait for that. SSW is already using Belgium made weapons.


yea our team is in belgium

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## muhammadali233

Oftopic but this is as close we can get to see what type of rigors a rifle or a pistol in this case goes while undergoing trials.Testing looks pretty modest to me,not enough.
European GP K105 pistol at the army pistols trial.


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## Zarvan

French Soldiers also carrying SCAR


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## LegitimateIdiot

this is suspense

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## Zarvan

LegitimateIdiot said:


> this is suspense


I am hoping this suspense would end at IDEAS 2016

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## Zarvan

@Arsalan @Horus @Oscar @Path-Finder @RAMPAGE


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## Vergennes

Already equipping many special forces or corps around the world,it is equipping the Chilean Marine Corp.
Let's be honest,that's a beautiful weapon.

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## Path-Finder

Vergennes said:


> Already equipping many special forces or corps around the world,it is equipping the Chilean Marine Corp.
> Let's be honest,that's a beautiful weapon.
> 
> View attachment 350625
> 
> View attachment 350627
> 
> View attachment 350630
> 
> View attachment 350632
> 
> View attachment 350633
> 
> View attachment 350635


more gun p0rn for Zarvan

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## ali_raza

Vergennes said:


> Already equipping many special forces or corps around the world,it is equipping the Chilean Marine Corp.
> Let's be honest,that's a beautiful weapon.
> 
> View attachment 350625
> 
> View attachment 350627
> 
> View attachment 350630
> 
> View attachment 350632
> 
> View attachment 350633
> 
> View attachment 350635


very beautiful weapon


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## Zarvan

Vergennes said:


> Already equipping many special forces or corps around the world,it is equipping the Chilean Marine Corp.
> Let's be honest,that's a beautiful weapon.
> 
> View attachment 350625
> 
> View attachment 350627
> 
> View attachment 350630
> 
> View attachment 350632
> 
> View attachment 350633
> 
> View attachment 350635


Well I am waiting for IDEAS 2016. I think we would hear about the winner during IDEAS 2016


----------



## Rafi

FN are being very co-operative on price and manufacturing, it is being increasingly likely that they are going to win the tender. Unless the Italians can swoop in with a better offer.

Initially 80,000 rifles will be purchased and will go to SSG, LCB, Infantry regiments, and then will go to the rest of the Army.

There us also very strong likelihood that the Navy and Airforce will take it up. The SSW have taken it up.

Also the Army is VERY interested in the MinimI 7.62, sights and scopes are also being bought.

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## Zarvan

Rafi said:


> FN are being very co-operative on price and manufacturing, it is being increasingly likely that they are going to win the tender. Unless the Italians can swoop in with a better offer.
> 
> Initially 80,000 rifles will be purchased and will go to SSG, LCB, Infantry regiments, and then will go to the rest of the Army.
> 
> There us also very strong likelihood that the Navy and Airforce will take it up. The SSW have taken it up.
> 
> Also the Army is VERY interested in the MinimI 7.62, sights and scopes are also being bought.


I think FN will win and we would go for SCAR. Yes I knew that Army is testing machine guns as well as HandGuns. As we are also interested in minimi 7.62 I think SCAR has lot more chances now. Also the versions SCAR is offering no other Rifle is offering. Two Sniper versions as well as 7.62 x 51 and 7.62 x 39 and 5.56 x 45 and self defence version also the carbine. So SCAR will have lot more chances.


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## Gryphon

Rafi said:


> FN are being very co-operative on price and manufacturing, *it is being increasingly likely that they are going to win the tender*. Unless the Italians can swoop in with a better offer.



There is no FN, Izhmash and Zastava at IDEAS 2016. But there is presence of Beretta (and Fiocchi, one of Italy's largest manufacturers of ammunition). There is also MKEK.

The absence of FN at IDEAS 2016 does not indicate it will win the tender.


----------



## Zarvan

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> There is no FN, Izhmash and Zastava at IDEAS 2016. But there is presence of Beretta (and Fiocchi, one of Italy's largest manufacturers of ammunition). There is also MKEK.
> 
> The absence of FN at IDEAS 2016 does not indicate it will win the tender.


FN is there and company not being present at IDEAS is no indicator. We are Pakistan but Horus is has already told that FN would be there. SCAR is most likely the winner of Rifle trials.


----------



## Gryphon

Zarvan said:


> Horus is has already told that FN would be there. SCAR is most likely the winner of Rifle trials.



The official website (ideaspakistan.gov.pk) has confirmed there is no FN at IDEAS 2016. I don't know where @Horus got the info.

About time mods of defence.pk take action against you for spamming this forum. You have turned this forum into a dump of your wish list and inside info from (non-existing) sources. Half of this threads 164 pages have been spammed by the same lines... "I hope SCAR wins"... "It is best"...

@WebMaster @mods @waz @Oscar


----------



## Zarvan

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> The official website (ideaspakistan.gov.pk) has confirmed there is no FN at IDEAS 2016. I don't know where @Horus got the info.
> 
> About time mods of defence.pk take action against you for spamming this forum. You have turned this forum into a dump of your wish list and inside info from (non-existing) sources. Half of this threads 164 pages have been spammed by the same lines... "I hope SCAR wins"... "It is best"...
> 
> @WebMaster @mods @waz @Oscar


@Horus is one hell of a source which we most trust and you can ask him that whether SCAR is participating or not. SCAR is the best Assault Rifle and it has performed best in our trials conducting by Pakistan. In fact it was ahead in performance if compared to all the rifles which participated in trials.

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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> @Horus is one hell of a source which we most trust and you can ask him that whether SCAR is participating or not. SCAR is the best Assault Rifle and it has performed best in our trials conducting by Pakistan. In fact it was ahead in performance if compared to all the rifles which participated in trials.


No, it was NOT. It was NOT a horse race where one was ahead and other lagged behind. The trials were against a set of parameters and there is MORE THAN ONE RIFLE that passed and met every required parameter. I have been saying and trying to make you understand this basic point and anyone with the slightest knowledge of military evaluations and trials will understand what it is and how it is done. IT IS NOT A HORSE RACE WHERE ONE IS LEADING THE OTHER. Parameters are set and you either pass or fail. SIMPLE!!

*Rest you can speculate WHATEVER you want to!! *

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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> No, it was NOT. It was NOT a horse race where one was ahead and other lagged behind. The trials were against a set of parameters and there is MORE THAN ONE RIFLE that passed and met every required parameter. I have been saying and trying to make you understand this basic point and anyone with the slightest knowledge of military evaluations and trials will understand what it is and how it is done. IT IS NOT A HORSE RACE WHERE ONE IS LEADING THE OTHER. Parameters are set and you either pass or fail. SIMPLE!!
> 
> *Rest you can speculate WHATEVER you want to!! *


SCAR performed better than compared to other assault rifles that doesn't mean that other can't meet the the certain standards which are set but still SCAR was better in performance as compared to other rifles so every other gun who has contacts in Army has said this. Yes I know about the basic point but if you are conducting trials and the Rifle which performs best but you don't induct it than I am sorry the soldiers who know about the trials and the results won't be that happy if you go for 2nd best.


----------



## Kompromat

FN Rep told me.



TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> The official website (ideaspakistan.gov.pk) has confirmed there is no FN at IDEAS 2016. I don't know where @Horus got the info.
> 
> About time mods of defence.pk take action against you for spamming this forum. You have turned this forum into a dump of your wish list and inside info from (non-existing) sources. Half of this threads 164 pages have been spammed by the same lines... "I hope SCAR wins"... "It is best"...
> 
> @WebMaster @mods @waz @Oscar

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## Basel

Rafi said:


> FN are being very co-operative on price and manufacturing, it is being increasingly likely that they are going to win the tender. Unless the Italians can swoop in with a better offer.
> 
> Initially 80,000 rifles will be purchased and will go to SSG, LCB, Infantry regiments, and then will go to the rest of the Army.
> 
> There us also very strong likelihood that the Navy and Airforce will take it up. The SSW have taken it up.
> 
> Also the Army is VERY interested in the MinimI 7.62, sights and scopes are also being bought.



What Minimi offer better then other similar weapons?


----------



## Rafi

Basel said:


> What Minimi offer better then other similar weapons?



Hi bro hope you are well, right the MG aka the Rani, is used as "supressing" fire. 

The MinimI is lightweight compared to MG3, easily carried by a Jawaan. it is also ergonomic, with all the modern picatinny rails for holding sights, scopes. 

It is a most for modern warfare, imagine you are being helicopter dropped, it would the best.

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## Basel

Rafi said:


> Hi bro hope you are well, right the MG aka the Rani, is used as "supressing" fire.
> 
> The MinimI is lightweight compared to MG3, easily carried by a Jawaan. it is also ergonomic, with all the modern picatinny rails for holding sights, scopes.
> 
> It is a most for modern warfare, imagine you are being helicopter dropped, it would the best.



I asked comparison with competitor gun in market not with the one it may replace.


----------



## ali_raza

Horus said:


> FN Rep told me.


what tgey told u sir


----------



## Vergennes

Rafi said:


> Hi bro hope you are well, right the MG aka the Rani, is used as "supressing" fire.
> 
> The MinimI is lightweight compared to MG3, easily carried by a Jawaan. it is also ergonomic, with all the modern picatinny rails for holding sights, scopes.
> 
> It is a most for modern warfare, imagine you are being helicopter dropped, it would the best.



The belgians weren't really enthusiastic about the Minimi compared to the older MAGs,not sure that a part from being more modern,it's a +.
The french army even prefered to go with the MAG58.












Also on armored vehicles.

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## Rafi

Vergennes said:


> The belgians weren't really enthusiastic about the Minimi compared to the older MAGs,not sure that a part from being more modern,it's a +.
> The french army even prefered to go with the MAG58.
> 
> View attachment 350922
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also on armored vehicles.
> 
> View attachment 350923



Still being evaluated.

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## Path-Finder

Rafi said:


> Hi bro hope you are well, right the MG aka the Rani, is used as "supressing" fire.
> 
> The MinimI is lightweight compared to MG3, easily carried by a Jawaan. it is also ergonomic, with all the modern picatinny rails for holding sights, scopes.
> 
> It is a most for modern warfare, imagine you are being helicopter dropped, it would the best.


is it feasible to go from a non-disintegrating link machine gun to a disintegrating link machine gun?


----------



## ali_raza

Rafi said:


> Still being evaluated.


sir when we can expect results of this

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## Zarvan

ali_raza said:


> sir when we can expect results of this


I think we can hear about these things at IDEAS 2016


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## Rafi

Path-Finder said:


> is it feasible to go from a non-disintegrating link machine gun to a disintegrating link machine gun?



It's possible

I think that the fact that advanced sights and scopes are coming in already. And the platoon and section being "networked" is already revolutionary.

Seen some of the systems "future warrior" may even be introduced in IDEAS 2016. Fingers crossed, depends if they are happy with the progress to show it.

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## Zarvan

Rafi said:


> It's possible
> 
> I think that the fact that advanced sights and scopes are coming in already. And the platoon and section being "networked" is already revolutionary.
> 
> Seen some of the systems "future warrior" may even be introduced in IDEAS 2016. Fingers crossed, depends if they are happy with the progress to show it.


Are you suggesting that Pakistan is running its future soldier program without revealing it ?


----------



## Path-Finder

man IDEAS 2016 cannot come soon enough!


----------



## Rafi

Zarvan said:


> Are you suggesting that Pakistan is running its future soldier program without revealing it ?



There is a future integrated networked warrior programme. When it is unveiled I don't know.

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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> SCAR performed better than compared to other assault rifles that doesn't mean that other can't meet the the certain standards which are set but still SCAR was better in performance as compared to other rifles so every other gun who has contacts in Army has said this. Yes I know about the basic point but if you are conducting trials and the Rifle which performs best but you don't induct it than I am sorry the soldiers who know about the trials and the results won't be that happy if you go for 2nd best.


For the last time dear, and then i am out!!! 

There are no firsts and seconds!!! There are pass and fails!! There are guns that meet all your parameters, guns that meet some of them and guns that do not meet any. So if something that meets some of your parameters over the one that meets all of them, then yes, i feel sorry for soldier as well. However if you are choosing between two guns that have BOTH met all your required parameters then it will all come down to the business proposal and the more lucrative offer.


If that still do not make you understand the process perhaps you should sit with those "links" and try to understand the process with them.

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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> For the last time dear, and then i am out!!!
> 
> There are no firsts and seconds!!! There are pass and fails!! There are guns that meet all your parameters, guns that meet some of them and guns that do not meet any. So if something that meets some of your parameters over the one that meets all of them, then yes, i feel sorry for soldier as well. However if you are choosing between two guns that have BOTH met all your required parameters then it will all come down to the business proposal and the more lucrative offer.
> 
> 
> If that still do not make you understand the process perhaps you should sit with those "links" and try to understand the process with them.


Yes there are pass and fails but in all those pass not are of same standard some are clearly ahead as compared to others.That is where SCAR was the best in trials. I have checked with different military sources. Same happens in failures yes some are most miserable Rifles but some only disappoint you at few para meters still you consider them fail. Secondly all the senior members like Horus and Rafi and others and the people I asked to contact in military area suggesting that by every passing day it's getting more likely that SCAR would win.

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## Gryphon

FN Herstal has confirmed IDEAS 2016 participation on its website.

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## Path-Finder

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> FN Herstal has confirmed IDEAS 2016 participation on its website.


@Zarvan time to get the pom pom's out


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## Zarvan

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> FN Herstal has confirmed IDEAS 2016 participation on its website.


That is good news. It's party time


----------



## Bratva

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> FN Herstal has confirmed IDEAS 2016 participation on its website.

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## Path-Finder

Bratva said:


>







This is a better choice than the Trumpet with Sean Paul. It's more upbeat!

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## Zarvan



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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


>


Zarvan if SCAR wins! How will you celebrate?


----------



## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Zarvan if SCAR wins! How will you celebrate?


It would be party all night

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## ali_raza

Zarvan said:


> It would be party all night


molvi sahb party?? haram

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## Rafi

The selection of the new rifle, is one part of the new evolution of the mainstay of the Army a "Rifleman".

Concept includes "realtime" monitoring of operations. New anti-tank and anti personal weapons integrated into section and platoon level.

UGV and UAV use down to company level and below. Because all of this is very cost heavy. Elements will be introduced gradually and when possible made indigenously.

Friendly countries concepts and help are also being used.

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## Rafi

ali_raza said:


> molvi sahb party?? haram



With all due respect to Zarvan bro, maulvi party like it's 1999. lol

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## Mugwop

If it's about quantity go for AK but if quality then go for SCAR.
The good thing about AK is it's durability but SCAR has better piston

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## Khafee

Mugwop said:


> If it's about quantity go for AK but if quality then go for SCAR.
> The good thing about AK is it's durability but SCAR has better piston


Is there anything on SCAR's durability VS AK's, that you could point me to? 

Would appreciate it.


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## ali_raza

Khafee said:


> Is there anything on SCAR's durability VS AK's, that you could point me to?
> 
> Would appreciate it.


its more about having a modern weapon on par with rest of armies.AK is very basic and still is.scar type weapons are very futuristic.they can be upgraded.and also it looks good


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## Zarvan

Rafi said:


> The selection of the new rifle, is one part of the new evolution of the mainstay of the Army a "Rifleman".
> 
> Concept includes "realtime" monitoring of operations. New anti-tank and anti personal weapons integrated into section and platoon level.
> 
> UGV and UAV use down to company level and below. Because all of this is very cost heavy. Elements will be introduced gradually and when possible made indigenously.
> 
> Friendly countries concepts and help are also being used.


Are we planning to induct weapons like Carl Gaustav or similar ????


----------



## Areesh

Rafi said:


> The selection of the new rifle, is one part of the new evolution of the mainstay of the Army a "Rifleman".
> 
> Concept includes "realtime" monitoring of operations. *New anti-tank* and anti personal weapons integrated into section and platoon level.
> 
> UGV and UAV use down to company level and below. Because all of this is very cost heavy. Elements will be introduced gradually and when possible made indigenously.
> 
> Friendly countries concepts and help are also being used.



Any chance of HJ12 coming to Pakistan???

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## Rafi

Zarvan said:


> Are we planning to induct weapons like Carl Gaustav or similar ????



So much stuff in the pipeline, but still in selection and evaluation phase.



Areesh said:


> Any chance of HJ12 coming to Pakistan???



Is being seriously considered, if selected (good chance) will include domestic production.

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## Areesh

Rafi said:


> Is being seriously considered, if selected (good chance) will include domestic production.



Thanks. This is something that Pakistan needs in its arsenal.

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## Zarvan

Below is a Beretta ARX in 7.62×39.









This is the .308 Beretta ARX.





Things got little bit interesting. @Horus Berreta during IDEAS 2016 also showed there 7.62 x 39 version. Now that is really interesting move. @Arsalan @Path-Finder @Rafi

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Below is a Beretta ARX in 7.62×39.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is the .308 Beretta ARX.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Things got little bit interesting. @Horus Berreta during IDEAS 2016 also showed there 7.62 x 39 version. Now that is really interesting move. @Arsalan @Path-Finder @Rafi


well it has been in service with sindh special police unit! that picture with sindh ssu? they have both 556 and x39 version in service with them! if you can post that pic again its in there!

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> well it has been in service with sindh special police unit! that picture with sindh ssu? they have both 556 and x39 version in service with them! if you can post that pic again its in there!


 They have only 5.56 version. This 7.62 X 39 hasn't even entered full scale production yet

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## Rafi

Zarvan said:


> Below is a Beretta ARX in 7.62×39.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is the .308 Beretta ARX.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Things got little bit interesting. @Horus Berreta during IDEAS 2016 also showed there 7.62 x 39 version. Now that is really interesting move. @Arsalan @Path-Finder @Rafi



The Italians won't give up without a fight, good for us we get the best deal.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

ali_raza said:


> molvi sahb party?? haram





Rafi said:


> With all due respect to Zarvan bro, maulvi party like it's 1999. lol


I think @Zarvan meant 'jamaat' parties ... like knocking on my door to talk to me about the FN SCAR and get me to agree with him that Pakistan should buy the SCAR.

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## Zarvan

Rafi said:


> The Italians won't give up without a fight, good for us we get the best deal.


I know but if we both offer permission to export than I think it won't be a bad idea to produce both at POF. We can induct SCAR for Armed Forces and Para Military. Berreta can go to Police as well as we can export it to several countires.


----------



## Gryphon

Zastava M77 (7.62×51) was also trialled by PA.








Zarvan said:


> I know but if we both offer permission to export than I think it won't be a bad idea to produce both at POF. We can induct SCAR for Armed Forces and Para Military. Berreta can go to Police as well as we can export it to several countires.



You want a zoo of assault rifles or what ?? POF will never manufacture both FN SCAR and Beretta ARX-200. You can bury these BS wishes somewhere and die.

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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> Yes there are pass and fails but in all those pass not are of same standard some are clearly ahead as compared to others.That is where SCAR was the best in trials. I have checked with different military sources. Same happens in failures yes some are most miserable Rifles but some only disappoint you at few para meters still you consider them fail. Secondly all the senior members like Horus and Rafi and others and the people I asked to contact in military area suggesting that by every passing day it's getting more likely that SCAR would win.


Nahi myri jan this is what i have been trying to tell you.

The group which was evaluating the guns have passed two guns with a third one as a possible options. (second choice). Two guns were tagged as first choice. That chapter is closed (at least for now).

The decision is now based on the business proposal and it is a second group which is evaluating that. If FN Scar wins it will be because:

It passed the field evaluation and met all parameters
The business deal they offered was the best.
Stating that this is first and this is second is NOT HOW THINGS ARE PLAYED. I understand you do pay attention to what Horus and Rafi say, both are really respectable members and perhaps they can read this and try to explain this to you. @Horus @Rafi 



Zarvan said:


> Below is a Beretta ARX in 7.62×39.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is the .308 Beretta ARX.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Things got little bit interesting. @Horus Berreta during IDEAS 2016 also showed there 7.62 x 39 version. Now that is really interesting move. @Arsalan @Path-Finder @Rafi


It is, it is mainly between FN and Beretta. Both have passed the trials (along with one other but that had a few issues so it is not among the options being looked upon right now) and it is now all about the business deal. No gun have any advantage over the other based on the specs as that process is over. The department evaluating have passed both and transferred the process to the next department which is going to negotiate the deal. That is what i have been trying to say all along but perhaps it is my mistake

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## Zarvan

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Zastava M77 (7.62×51) was also trialed by PA.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You want a zoo of assault rifles or what ?? POF will never manufacture both FN SCAR and Beretta ARX-200. You can bury these BS wishes somewhere and die.


No I want POF to make best Assault Rifles in the world. I want SCAR to go to Armed Forces and Para Military but other Rifles only should be produced at POF if we have permission to export them than we can export them also launch them in civilian markets as well as equip our Police Force

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## Arsalan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I think @Zarvan meant 'jamaat' parties ... like knocking on my door to talk to me about the FN SCAR and get me to agree with him that Pakistan should buy the SCAR.


Irada tu likhwa dain?

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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> Nahi myri jan this is what i have been trying to tell you.
> 
> The group which was evaluating the guns have passed two guns with a third one as a possible options. (second choice). Two guns were tagged as first choice. That chapter is closed (at least for now).
> 
> The decision is now based on the business proposal and it is a second group which is evaluating that. If FN Scar wins it will be because:
> 
> It passed the field evaluation and met all parameters
> The business deal they offered was the best.
> Stating that this is first and this is second is NOT HOW THINGS ARE PLAYED. I understand you do pay attention to what Horus and Rafi say, both are really respectable members and perhaps they can read this and try to explain this to you. @Horus @Rafi
> 
> 
> It is, it is mainly between FN and Beretta. Both have passed the trials (along with one other but that had a few issues so it is not among the options being looked upon right now) and it is now all about the business deal. No gun have any advantage over the other based on the specs as that process is over. The department evaluating have passed both and transferred the process to the next department which is going to negotiate the deal. That is what i have been trying to say all along but perhaps it is my mistake


Is BREN the third one. Secondly no where on earth two things give exact same performance one is always slightly better


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## Gryphon

Arsalan said:


> The group which was evaluating the guns *have passed two guns* with a *third one as a possible option*s. (second choice). Two guns were tagged as first choice.



I guess the two passing ones are FN SCAR & Beretta ARX-200. Can you name the third one ??

BTW, Type 56 are also to be replaced. Which rifle will replace those ??

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## Rafi

Arsalan said:


> Nahi myri jan this is what i have been trying to tell you.
> 
> The group which was evaluating the guns have passed two guns with a third one as a possible options. (second choice). Two guns were tagged as first choice. That chapter is closed (at least for now).
> 
> The decision is now based on the business proposal and it is a second group which is evaluating that. If FN Scar wins it will be because:
> 
> It passed the field evaluation and met all parameters
> The business deal they offered was the best.
> Stating that this is first and this is second is NOT HOW THINGS ARE PLAYED. I understand you do pay attention to what Horus and Rafi say, both are really respectable members and perhaps they can read this and try to explain this to you. @Horus @Rafi
> 
> 
> It is, it is mainly between FN and Beretta. Both have passed the trials (along with one other but that had a few issues so it is not among the options being looked upon right now) and it is now all about the business deal. No gun have any advantage over the other based on the specs as that process is over. The department evaluating have passed both and transferred the process to the next department which is going to negotiate the deal. That is what i have been trying to say all along but perhaps it is my mistake



You have explained it very well. I agree totally. a good day to you sir.

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## Zarvan

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> I guess the two passing ones are FN SCAR & Beretta ARX-200. Can you name the third one ??
> 
> BTW, Type 56 are also to be replaced. Which rifle will replace those ??


I am guessing it was BREN @Arsalan

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## Amaa'n

Arsalan said:


> Nahi myri jan this is what i have been trying to tell you.
> 
> The group which was evaluating the guns have passed two guns with a third one as a possible options. (second choice). Two guns were tagged as first choice. That chapter is closed (at least for now).
> 
> The decision is now based on the business proposal and it is a second group which is evaluating that. If FN Scar wins it will be because:
> 
> It passed the field evaluation and met all parameters
> The business deal they offered was the best.
> Stating that this is first and this is second is NOT HOW THINGS ARE PLAYED. I understand you do pay attention to what Horus and Rafi say, both are really respectable members and perhaps they can read this and try to explain this to you. @Horus @Rafi
> 
> 
> It is, it is mainly between FN and Beretta. Both have passed the trials (along with one other but that had a few issues so it is not among the options being looked upon right now) and it is now all about the business deal. No gun have any advantage over the other based on the specs as that process is over. The department evaluating have passed both and transferred the process to the next department which is going to negotiate the deal. That is what i have been trying to say all along but perhaps it is my mistake


Sometime I want to shoot you, for knocking on this door still 
he is not going to understand the process, for some on this thread, its like race either you come first, second or third -----
that is why i dont even respond to what is being tested and trail threads ------ people are too hyped up on this

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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> Is BREN the third one. Secondly no where on earth two things give exact same performance one is always slightly better


they DO NOT HAVE to perform exactly the same. They have to meet the standards and then it is game over. The field evaluation passed and that box checked. The decision authority transferred to second section with no point system transferred indicating that this secured 90 out of 100 and this secured 80 out of 100!! It is not your matriculating exams.
*Two choices given, anyone from these two or if some problem in deal go for that third one.*

Plus do not worry about the third one because as of last month both the guns recommended as first choice were making excellent deal offers. Not just ToT but MANY other things being covered as well. It wont go to the second choice gun and one of the first choice will be selected. Plus there are $$$ involved as well.



Rafi said:


> You have explained it very well. I agree totally. a good day to you sir.


Thanks a lot bahi jan!! 

@Zarvan 
Shaid _Ke_ Utar Jaye _Tere Dil_ Mein Meri Baat



balixd said:


> Sometime I want to shoot you, for knocking on this door still
> he is not going to understand the process, for some on this thread, its like race either you come first, second or third -----
> that is why i dont even respond to what is being tested and trail threads ------ people are too hyped up on this


You know what, sometimes, I WANT YOU TO SHOOT ME!!  Really!

Anyway, point taken. 
(that is AFTER i wrote that last response above  )



TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> I guess the two passing ones are FN SCAR & Beretta ARX-200. *Can you name the third one ??*
> 
> BTW, Type 56 are also to be replaced. Which rifle will replace those ??


That was as a second choice, only to be considered if non of the two first choices could be negotiated with for a good business deal. That is not the case.
Also there was this option being discussed that if deal could not be struck with one of the two priority guns then we may consider trying to get HK involved as well and then reevaluate tree guns (Bern, HK416 and a Russian option) and choose from that. If that is also not possible then BERN was being considered as a third choice. However personally i do not think we would have gone with that and in case we were not able to finalize the things with the first choice we would have gone for the reevaluation of these and selected from that.

Anyway, not a concern anymore. Both the top vendors are actually quite desperate to finalize things now.


----------



## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> they DO NOT HAVE to perform exactly the same. They have to meet the standards and then it is game over. The field evaluation passed and that box checked. The decision authority transferred to second section with no point system transferred indicating that this secured 90 out of 100 and this secured 80 out of 100!! It is not your matriculating exams.
> *Two choices given, anyone from these two or if some problem in deal go for that third one.*
> 
> Plus do not worry about the third one because as of last month both the guns recommended as first choice were making excellent deal offers. Not just ToT but MANY other things being covered as well. It wont go to the second choice gun and one of the first choice will be selected. Plus there are $$$ involved as well.
> 
> 
> You know what, sometimes, I WANT YOU TO SHOOT ME!!  Really!
> 
> Anyway, point taken.
> (that is AFTER i wrote that last response above  )
> 
> 
> That was as a second choice, only to be considered if non of the two first choices could be negotiated with for a good business deal. That is not the case.
> Also there was this option being discussed that if deal could not be struck with one of the two priority guns then we may consider trying to get HK involved as well and then reevaluate tree guns (Bern, HK416 and a Russian option) and choose from that. If that is also not possible then BERN was being considered as a third choice. However personally i do not think we would have gone with that and in case we were not able to finalize the things with the first choice we would have gone for the reevaluation of these and selected from that.
> 
> Anyway, not a concern anymore. Both the top vendors are actually quite desperate to finalize things now.


If both are offering permission to export than I think it will sound expensive but we need to contact KSA and ask them for some help here because in the end Arabs will be biggest importers of these Assault Rifles made by POF. We have cheap labour therefore we can offer these Assault Rifles at much lower rates




than European counterparts.


----------



## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> If both are offering permission to export than I think it will sound expensive but we need to contact KSA and ask them for some help here because in the end Arabs will be biggest importers of these Assault Rifles made by POF. We have cheap labour therefore we can offer these Assault Rifles at much lower rates
> View attachment 351322
> than European counterparts.


We will be managing it our self and it will be done in batches so we can afford it.


----------



## ali_raza

Arsalan said:


> they DO NOT HAVE to perform exactly the same. They have to meet the standards and then it is game over. The field evaluation passed and that box checked. The decision authority transferred to second section with no point system transferred indicating that this secured 90 out of 100 and this secured 80 out of 100!! It is not your matriculating exams.
> *Two choices given, anyone from these two or if some problem in deal go for that third one.*
> 
> Plus do not worry about the third one because as of last month both the guns recommended as first choice were making excellent deal offers. Not just ToT but MANY other things being covered as well. It wont go to the second choice gun and one of the first choice will be selected. Plus there are $$$ involved as well.
> 
> 
> Thanks a lot bahi jan!!
> 
> @Zarvan
> Shaid _Ke_ Utar Jaye _Tere Dil_ Mein Meri Baat
> 
> 
> You know what, sometimes, I WANT YOU TO SHOOT ME!!  Really!
> 
> Anyway, point taken.
> (that is AFTER i wrote that last response above  )
> 
> 
> That was as a second choice, only to be considered if non of the two first choices could be negotiated with for a good business deal. That is not the case.
> Also there was this option being discussed that if deal could not be struck with one of the two priority guns then we may consider trying to get HK involved as well and then reevaluate tree guns (Bern, HK416 and a Russian option) and choose from that. If that is also not possible then BERN was being considered as a third choice. However personally i do not think we would have gone with that and in case we were not able to finalize the things with the first choice we would have gone for the reevaluation of these and selected from that.
> 
> Anyway, not a concern anymore. Both the top vendors are actually quite desperate to finalize things now.


i have read alote between the lines.and seriously m very happy cos its what i was hoping for

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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> We will be managing it our self and it will be done in batches so we can afford it.


I was suggesting we should produce both. Armed Forces can induct only SCAR but Berreta can go to Police and both can be launched in civilian market as well exported


----------



## The Eagle

Arsalan said:


> @Zarvan
> Shaid _Ke_ Utar Jaye _Tere Dil_ Mein Meri Baat



Barhta ha Shoq-e-Ghalib unki nahi nahi se....


----------



## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> They have only 5.56 version. This 7.62 X 39 hasn't even entered full scale production yet


no it is in service with sindh ssu! that picture post it here and you will see it in there!!!






guy second from the right and guy on left their rifle are different! thus both 556 and x39 are in active use!!!


----------



## Gryphon

Arsalan said:


> *if deal could not be struck with one of the two priority guns* then we may consider trying to get HK involved as well and then reevaluate tree guns (Bern, HK416 and a Russian option) and choose from that. If that is also not possible then BERN was being considered as a third choice.



According to many sources, the program was started to replace HK G3 as well as Type 56 (Chinese AK-47). Let's assume one of the two (FN & Beretta) is contracted to replace the G3 (7.62x51). I am asking what will replace 7.62x39 Type 56 rifles. CZ 806 Bren 2, AK-103 and possibly FN SCAR (7.62x39 version) were in the competition as well.

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> no it is in service with sindh ssu! that picture post it here and you will see it in there!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> guy second from the right and guy on left their rifle are different! thus both 556 and x39 are in active use!!!


Well you are right. If Berreta is allowing us to export Berreta than we should adopt both. We have cheap labour and with other tactics we can export them at cheap prices than original countries just like we are doing with G3 and MP 5



TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> According to many sources, the program was started to replace HK G3 as well as Type 56 (Chinese AK-47). Let's assume one of the two (FN & Beretta) is contracted to replace the G3 (7.62x51). I am asking what will replace 7.62x39 Type 56 rifles. CZ 806 Bren 2, AK-103 and possibly FN SCAR (7.62x39 version) were in the competition as well.


Not just one Rifle from the series would come. Entire series would come. I mean all the versions of SCAR or Berreta.


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## Zarvan



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## Suff Shikan

Path-Finder said:


> no it is in service with sindh ssu! that picture post it here and you will see it in there!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> guy second from the right and guy on left their rifle are different! thus both 556 and x39 are in active use!!!



The Guys on both corners are brothers and are friend of mine, They both are in SSU.

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## Zarvan



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## Zarvan




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## Gryphon

AK-103 and Zastava M77 have been eliminated from Pakistan's service rifle competition, a DEPO source has confirmed.

The source added that only the 7.62×51mm NATO FN SCAR-H was trialled as PA has no requirement of a 5.56mm assault rifle.

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## Path-Finder

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> AK-103 and Zastava M77 have been eliminated from Pakistan's service rifle competition, a DEPO source has confirmed.
> 
> The source added that only the 7.62×51mm NATO FN SCAR-H was trialled as PA has no requirement of a 5.56mm assault rifle.


That means CZ Bren is still in? or either SCAR or Beretta with both calibres will win it !


----------



## Gryphon

Path-Finder said:


> That means CZ Bren is still in? or either SCAR or Beretta with both calibres will win it !



FN SCAR-H, Beretta ARX-200 and MKEK MPT-76 are still competing for replacing G3 (all three are 7.62x51mm).

CZ 806 Bren 2 will almost certainly replace 7.62x39mm Type 56 rifles.

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## Path-Finder

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> FN SCAR-H, Beretta ARX-200 and MKEK MPT-76 are still competing for replacing G3 (all three are 7.62x51mm).
> 
> CZ 806 Bren 2 will almost certainly replace 7.62x39mm Type 56 rifles.


ok, it is a year since the trials began i hope the winner is announced soon.


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## Zarvan

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> FN SCAR-H, Beretta ARX-200 and MKEK MPT-76 are still competing for replacing G3 (all three are 7.62x51mm).
> 
> CZ 806 Bren 2 will almost certainly replace 7.62x39mm Type 56 rifles.


Bro what are you doing. Have you been following the entire trial.All Guns were in trial to replace G3. Both SCAR and Berreta are also offering 7.62 x 39 versions. Now these two Rifles are shortlisted after trials are over and talks have begun and we can hear about the winner during IDEAS 2016. I am hoping SCAR wins but if Berreta are offering TOT and permission to export that even if we have to take help from Arabs we should and produce both in Pakistan. SCAR can go to Armed Forces as well Para Military and Berreta can go to Police. Both can be launched in civilian markets as well as exported.


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## Gryphon

Zarvan said:


> Bro what are you doing. Have you been following the entire trial.All Guns were in trial to replace G3. Both SCAR and Berreta are also offering 7.62 x 39 versions. Now these two Rifles are shortlisted after trials are over and talks have begun and we can hear about the winner during IDEAS 2016. I am hoping SCAR wins but if Berreta are offering TOT and permission to export that even if we have to take help from Arabs we should and produce both in Pakistan. SCAR can go to Armed Forces as well Para Military and Berreta can go to Police. Both can be launched in civilian markets as well as exported.



Stop quoting me to read this BS.


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## ali_raza

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Stop quoting me to read this BS.


hahahha


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## Naveed66

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> FN SCAR-H, Beretta ARX-200 and MKEK MPT-76 are still competing for replacing G3 (all three are 7.62x51mm).
> 
> CZ 806 Bren 2 will almost certainly replace 7.62x39mm Type 56 rifles.


i dont think we are testing mpt 76


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## Sadia Saeed

Pak Army Zindabad


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## Zarvan

Naveed66 said:


> i dont think we are testing mpt 76


MPT 76 was tested but we were not satisfied

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## Naveed66

Here are aome features of CZ 806 BREN 2 in this video

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## Zarvan

Naveed66 said:


> Here are aome features of CZ 806 BREN 2 in this video


I am the biggest supporter of SCAR from day one and I want Pakistani Armed Forces and Para Military to be equipped with SCAR but if Berreta and Bren are offering us TOT and permission to export than Pakistan should opt for all three even if for that we have to get help from Arab countries. Most of these Arab countries are biggest customers of POF and many European countries are not selling weapons to them directly so SCAR can go to Armed forces and either Bren or Berreta can go to Police. Also all three can be launched in civilian market as well as exported to countries who can't afford buying from Europe. We due to cheap labor and other advantages can offer these Rifles at lower rates.


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## Gryphon

Naveed66 said:


> i dont think we are testing mpt 76



I have seen reports which confirmed MPT-76 was being tested. It joined the competition after January 2016. I will try to find one for you.

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## Zarvan

MPT 76 was tested I even posted the picture of it during trials with other Assault Rifles





@Naveed66

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> I am the biggest supporter of SCAR from day one and I want Pakistani Armed Forces and Para Military to be equipped with SCAR but if Berreta and Bren are offering us TOT and permission to export than Pakistan should opt for all three even if for that we have to get help from Arab countries. Most of these Arab countries are biggest customers of POF and many European countries are not selling weapons to them directly so SCAR can go to Armed forces and either Bren or Berreta can go to Police. Also all three can be launched in civilian market as well as exported to countries who can't afford buying from Europe. We due to cheap labor and other advantages can offer these Rifles at lower rates.


 zarvan you are a certified nutter.


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## LegitimateIdiot

Damn


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## Zarvan

Are they Marines or which unit ?
@Arsalan @Horus @Path-Finder

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## Sulman Badshah

Zarvan said:


> Are they Marines or which unit ?
> @Arsalan @Horus @Path-Finder


SCAR H and SCAR TPR i guess

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## Gryphon

Looks like FN FAL


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Are they Marines or which unit ?
> @Arsalan @Horus @Path-Finder


these guys are from Pakistan? cant say for sure! top is SCAR but the guy in prone is a AR10 based DMR rifle.


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> these guys are from Pakistan? cant say for sure! top is SCAR but the guy in prone is a AR10 based DMR rifle.


The faces are Pakistani


----------



## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> The faces are Pakistani


don't go on the face alone! many faces can look Pakistani but doesn't mean they are Pakistani!!


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## Arsalan

Khafee said:


> Is there anything on SCAR's durability VS AK's, that you could point me to?
> 
> Would appreciate it.


Just speculations and guess work. AK is a proven design and have been proven as reliable. SCAR is relatively new and in use in limited numbers with SF etc and thus the questions. However if we consider material studies and engineering/designing SCAR do not shows any signs of weakness!



Zarvan said:


> Are they Marines or which unit ?
> @Arsalan @Horus @Path-Finder


Not marines i think. They use blue shade in there camo.

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## El Fuego

Zarvan said:


> Are they Marines or which unit ?
> @Arsalan @Horus @Path-Finder


The lower one is CZ BREN in 7,62x51 with Meopta sight

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## Zarvan

El Fuego said:


> The lower one is CZ BREN in 7,62x51 with Meopta sight


Are you sure ? @Arsalan @Path-Finder


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Are you sure ? @Arsalan @Path-Finder


no its not CZ



El Fuego said:


> The lower one is CZ BREN in 7,62x51 with Meopta sight


are they Colombian? I doubt they are but thought ill ask

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## pzfz

They're more Pakistani than anything else. SSW (air force ssg).


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## Basel

@Naveed66 Can you post similar videos of SCAR-H & ARX-200?


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## Sulman Badshah

Zarvan said:


> Are they Marines or which unit ?
> @Arsalan @Horus @Path-Finder



both are SCAR ..

one is SCAR H and other one is either SCAR TPR or SCAR SSR (most probably SSR)

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## pzfz

The shoes, the camo, the ruk sack, the pads etc are all Pakistani. Reports of SSW having accepted SCAR as FN2000 replacement also out there...


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Zarvan said:


> Are they Marines or which unit ?
> @Arsalan @Horus @Path-Finder



SSW.

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## Thunder.Storm

SCAR TPR




FN SCAR - SSR


----------



## Basel

Thunder.Storm said:


> SCAR TPR
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FN SCAR - SSR



What's the difference between them?


----------



## Areesh

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> SSW.



Welcome back.

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## Zarvan




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## TheDarkKnight

A good detailed documentary on beretta defence technology (45 mins). Gives an overview of the four main companies under BDT:
Beretta (small arms and assault rifles manufacturer which is the maker of Arx 200),
Steiner (optics and sights manufacturer from germany),
Sako (sniper rifles and ammunitions manufacturer)
and Benelli ( shotguns and other tactical arms).
Over 500 years of history in making arms.






You can find little glimpses of the ARX 200 design and development in the video. Some good 3 to 4 minutes testing footage of ARX 200 in the end from 38:00 This is the only action footage of arx 200 I could find on the internet. SCAR H has many reviews and videos availabe from their US users on youtube.
Based on the footage the recoile seems quite controllable with no upward or sideways movement. I would assume accuracy should be as good as SCAR H if not better.

Regards

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## Zarvan

the_unreachable said:


> A good detailed documentary on beretta defence technology (45 mins). Gives an overview of the four main companies under BDT:
> Beretta (small arms and assault rifles manufacturer which is the maker of Arx 200),
> Steiner (optics and sights manufacturer from germany),
> Sako (sniper rifles and ammunitions manufacturer)
> and Benelli ( shotguns and other tactical arms).
> Over 500 years of history in making arms.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can find little glimpses of the ARX 200 design and development in the video. Some good 3 to 4 minutes testing footage of ARX 200 in the end from 38:00 This is the only action footage of arx 200 I could find on the internet. SCAR H has many reviews and videos availabe from their US users.
> Based on the footage the recoile seems quite controllable with no upward or sideways movement. I would assume accuracy should be as good as SCAR H if not better.
> 
> Regards



If Berreta is also giving permission to export than I think POF should produce both SCAR and Berreta we can export both Rifles and make lot of money.


----------



## Zarvan

Basel said:


> What's the difference between them?



*FN SCAR®-H TPR*


*



*

*Introduction*
FN Herstal’s SCAR® precision rifle is the latest addition to the FN SCAR® family.

Utilizing the proven operating system and modular architecture found elsewhere in the FN SCAR® family, the FN SCAR® precision rifle incorporates features seldom found in a semi-auto precision rifle, and retains the same performances as an assault rifle at shorter ranges.

The FN SCAR® precision rifle is durable yet lightweight, and guarantees rapid and accurate fire at long and close ranges.

The FN SCAR® precision rifle is available with a foldable buttstock (FN SCAR®-H PR model) or with a non-foldable precision buttstock (FN SCAR®-H TPR model).

*Benefits*

*Enhanced Ergonomics*
Compared to traditional precision rifles, the FN SCAR® precision rifle is lightweight (4.5 kg without accessories). 

The FN SCAR®-H PR features a foldable buttstock - identical to the FN SCAR® assault rifle -, which makes the precision rifle compact and easy to handle in confined areas, such as patrol vehicles. When in folded position, the weapon does not exceed 816mm in length, and is still in firing position. The buttstock is also adjustable in length (6 positions) and height (2 positions) to accommodate respectively operator’s body armor and web gear, and operator’s head position when using iron, optical or electronic sights. These adjustments are retained after folding and unfolding the buttstock.

The FN SCAR®-H TPR features a non-foldable durable precision buttstock that can also be adjusted in length and in height to the operator’s preference, and has an elastomer-covered, sloped cheek rest for improved comfort.


*High Accuracy*
The FN SCAR® precision rifle features a free-floating 20” heavy barrel and a two-stage trigger module (Match type), ensuring longer effective range and higher accuracy (1.5 MoA at a distance of 600 meters).

The precision rifle features an extended top MIL-STD 1913 rail molded in the monolithic aluminum receiver. Barrel can therefore be removed and replaced by the operator for cleaning and maintenance operations with no impact on previously established zero. The top rail is 575mm long and can accept in-line night and day sights.




*Enhanced Comfort*
The FN SCAR® precision rifle features a 90° firing selector, and manual safety can be engaged with hammer de-cocked for improved safety.


*Reduced Costs*
Commonality of training and components throughout the FN SCAR® family simplifies operator training and maintenance.




Every reasonable effort has been made to ensure that all product photographs, descriptions and specifications on this website are accurate. However, inadvertent errors may occur, and changes in design or materials, due to our continual effort to improve products, may result in some change in specifications before subsequent publications are issued. FN Herstal, S.A. reserves the right to modify or change specifications without notice.

http://www.fnherstal.com/primary-me.../product/875/878/875/36/_/fn-scarR-h-tpr.html

*FN SCAR - SSR Mk.20 Mod.0 / Sniper Support Rifle (USA)*




FN SCAR - SSR Mk.20 Mod.0 / Sniper Support Rifle





Caliber

7,62x51 NATO (.308 Win)

Action

Semi-automatic, gas operated

Overall length

1028 mm

Barrel length

508 mm

Weight

5,05 kg

Magazine capacity

20 rounds



The FN SCAR Mk.20 Mod.0 SSR / Sniper Support Rifle is the latest offspring of the Special Forces Combat Assault Rifles (SCAR) family, developed for US Special Operations command (US SOCOM) by US-based subsidiary of the famous Belgian small arms-making company FN Herstal. The FN SCAR-SSR Mk.20 Mod.0 Sniper Support Rifle is based on the 7,62mm Mk.17 Mod.0 SCAR-H rifle, and is designed to provide accurate and rapid semi-automatic fire at ranges beyond capabilities of the standard 5,56mm assault rifles currently in service. It can be used as a Designated Marksman Rifle (DMR), as a tactical equivalent of the famous Russian Dragunov SVD rifle, or as a weapon for a 2nd member (spotter) of a conventional sniper team, where the 1st member is armed with long-range and precise, but relatively slow-firing weapon such as XM2010 ESR (hence the moniker “Sniper Support Rifle”).

Manufacturer claims that FN SCAR-SSR Mk.20 Mod.0 Sniper Support Rifle will deliver sub-MOA accuracy at ranges of up to 1000 yards (910 meters), assuming that proper sniper-grade ammunition is used.

The FN SCAR-SSR Mk.20 Mod.0 Sniper Support Rifle is already cleared for fielding by US SOCOM. It is interesting to note that Mk.20 SCAR-SSR rifle appears to be direct competitor to the Mk.11 Mod.1 / M110 Semi-automatic Sniper rifles, currently fielded by US military.



The FN SCAR-SSR Mk.20 Mod.0 Sniper Support Rifle is gas-operated, semi-automatic weapon. It uses short-stroke gas piston, located above the barrel, and rotating bolt locking with dual front lugs. It is based on the Mk.17 Mod.0 SCAR-H rifle (stated parts commonality with parent Mk.17 SCAR-H rifle is about 60%), but uses extended aluminum alloy upper receiver, special barrel extension and enhanced trigger. It also uses same 20-round detachable box magazines. The precision-made barrel has special profile and is fitted with flash hider, which also serves as a quick-detachable suppressor (silencer) mounting point. The shoulder stock is of fixed (non-folding) design and has adjustable buttplate and cheek rest. Like all other rifles in the FN SCAR family, SCAR-SSR rifle is provided with integral Picatinny rail on top of the receiver, with additional rail attached to the extended forend. It can be fitted with detachable back-up iron sights and any type of optical or IR/Night sight, which is suitable for planned mission.

http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sniper-rifles/usa/fn-scar-ssr-mk20-mod0-e.html

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## Eminent Mainstream Media

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> You should see a Baloch with a 7 inch sabr..



Don't think either you or the Mod who deleted my post got the idea behind It- Naga or Gurkhas are generally short and the 20 inch rifle appear too big with them- more so on a lady personnel from their community-


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> If Berreta is also giving permission to export than I think POF should produce both SCAR and Berreta we can export both Rifles and make lot of money.


zarvan this is what I have been trying to say for a while that Baretta offers a complete system that as a package makes sense, where as you say buy a rifle and then buy scopes/optics separately and other gizmos separately where Beretta is a complete package. glad you have finally agreed to it.


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## Kompromat

No. 



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> SSW.


----------



## TheDarkKnight

Zarvan said:


> If Berreta is also giving permission to export than I think POF should produce both SCAR and Berreta we can export both Rifles and make lot of money.



I think that is extremely unfeasable and cost prohibitive. I think purpose of POF, or any othe army run manufacturing org is to meet our armed forces needs primarily; exports are secondary. SCAR H and ARX meet the same requirement of 7.62 battle rifle ( both quite comparable in performance and quality).
Why not just produce and export SCAR H only? After having SCAR H is there a need to have ARX in Pakistan: NO. So why spend millions of dollars to manufacture ARX just for some additional *potential* exports?? And if we are in the exporting business why not just export SCAR H? Similar arguments can be made for producing ARX only if we end up choosing it instead of SCAR.
It has taken PA so long to even *start* the process of replacing a 1960 G3 ... and from that PA wont jump to producing two new expensive battle rifles. No country in the world, even rich ones, would ever do this.

Regards

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## Arsalan

El Fuego said:


> The lower one is CZ BREN in 7,62x51 with Meopta sight


No mate, it is not CZ. Both are SCAR.



Path-Finder said:


> are they Colombian? I doubt they are but thought ill ask


Hein.... what makes you think that? OR ask that? 
No they are Colombians. 

Just cant figure out the exact military wing they are from. The uniform is a new one or at least i cannot remember it. It is not of the Marines, neither SSW. Not so sure about that.

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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> No mate, it is not CZ. Both are SCAR.
> 
> 
> Hein.... what makes you think that? OR ask that?
> No they are Colombians.
> 
> Just cant figure out the exact military wing they are from. The uniform is a new one or at least i cannot remember it. It is not of the Marines, neither SSW. Not so sure about that.


I have also seen this Uniform in use of Pakistan but also finding it hard to figure it out which one. But Horus is insisting that they are not Pakistanis.


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## Path-Finder

Arsalan said:


> No mate, it is not CZ. Both are SCAR.
> 
> 
> Hein.... what makes you think that? OR ask that?
> No they are Colombians.
> 
> Just cant figure out the exact military wing they are from. The uniform is a new one or at least i cannot remember it. It is not of the Marines, neither SSW. Not so sure about that.


interesting they are hard to identify so took a guess and asked if they were Colombians


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## ali_raza

anything new guys??


----------



## Zarvan



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## Nutuk

Sadia Saeed said:


> Pak Army Zindabad



Could you tell more? I am interested in the weak points of our rifle. On which part there was dissatisfaction?



Zarvan said:


> MPT 76 was tested but we were not satisfied



Sorry I previously quoted the wrong person, again
Could you tell more? I am interested in the weak points of our rifle. On which part there was dissatisfaction?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Horus said:


> No.



The black pads,holster,boots,camo shirt and the backpacks gave them away.... if not SSW.. They are def SSG... now since you claimed that SSW adopted SCAR... Id say SSW... But otherwise... ive only seen SSG with those shirts.

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## Zarvan




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## Kompromat

Bro they are not ours. 



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> The black pads,holster,boots,camo shirt and the backpacks gave them away.... if not SSW.. They are def SSG... now since you claimed that SSW adopted SCAR... Id say SSW... But otherwise... ive only seen SSG with those shirts.
> 
> View attachment 353694
> View attachment 353694

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## Zarvan

Horus said:


> Bro they are not ours.


When ever you post a reply on thread I almost get the heart attack that you may have posted about the winner


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> When ever you post a reply on thread I almost get the heart attack that you may have posted about the winner


its time to get a bed in hospital and access the site from there at least in the event of a cardiac arrest you are close to help!

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## Nutuk

@Zarvan 

You wrote: "MPT 76 was tested but we were not satisfied"

Can you elaborate? I respect fully the decisions of brother nation Pakistan whatever she choses and is for her best.

I just like to hear at which points there was no satisfaction with the MPT 76, we should hear it from brothers and try to perfect it.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Nutuk said:


> @Zarvan
> 
> You wrote: "MPT 76 was tested but we were not satisfied"
> 
> Can you elaborate? I respect fully the decisions of brother nation Pakistan whatever she choses and is for her best.
> 
> I just like to hear at which points there was no satisfaction with the MPT 76, we should hear it from brothers and try to perfect it.


To be honest with you, no one bar a handful of posters here (who also happen to not post much on this issue) will know what is happening. For sanity's sake, I wouldn't dismiss any of the rifle options - MPT-76 included - until the Army openly signs on the dotted line with one of the competitors.

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## Naveed66

Basel said:


> @Naveed66 Can you post similar videos of SCAR-H & ARX-200?


sorry bro i just found this one. if i found than surely i will post it



Basel said:


> @Naveed66 Can you post similar videos of SCAR-H & ARX-200?


But i have one more video of CZ 806 BREN 2
a CZ guy telling about CZ 806 BREN 2

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## Zarvan



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## Zarvan




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## That Guy

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> To be honest with you, no one bar a handful of posters here (who also happen to not post much on this issue) will know what is happening. For sanity's sake, I wouldn't dismiss any of the rifle options - MPT-76 included - until the Army openly signs on the dotted line with one of the competitors.


Despite the chances being next to zero now, I still believe in the ARX. If Trump can become president, the cubs can win, and the British can (against all logic and reason) vote for Brexit, I have hope that the ARX can pull an upset victory.

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## Zarvan

Pakistan has signed MOU with Belgium today at IDEAS. Is it for SCAR ?


----------



## Vergennes

Zarvan said:


> Pakistan has signed MOU with Belgium today at IDEAS. Is it for SCAR ?



I've seen this picture also on the IDEAS thread,but are you guys aware that it's not the SCAR ? More like the BREN.

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## Zarvan

Vergennes said:


> I've seen this picture also on the IDEAS thread,but are you guys aware that it's not the SCAR ? More like the BREN.


It's most probably SCAR 7.62 x 39 version


----------



## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> It's most probably SCAR 7.62 x 39 version


Its CZ BREN look closely


----------



## Kompromat

Its Bren-2

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## Zarvan

Horus said:


> Its Bren-2


We signed a MOU with Belgium. What is that MOU for ?


----------



## monitor

_*FN SCAR assault rifle*_


----------



## CHACHA"G"

*ARX-200 (*http://www.berettadefensetechnologies.com/assault-rifles/arx-200-assault-rifle*)*









*FN-SCAR H CQC and STD(http://www.fnherstal.com/primary-me...l/product/182/232/182/1/_/fn-scarR-h-cqc.html)



*





*CZ Bren 2 14" (call 806 upgraded from 805) (http://www.czub.cz/en/produkty/automaticke-zbrane/cz-805-bren-2-14.html)*





*Its look like CZ Bren , all 3 counties are participating in IDEAS 2016 , (MOU with Belgium ). Soon we will hear some thing good , I guess , But I just love the suspense. *

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## MadDog

Nutuk said:


> @Zarvan
> 
> You wrote: "MPT 76 was tested but we were not satisfied"
> 
> Can you elaborate? I respect fully the decisions of brother nation Pakistan whatever she choses and is for her best.
> 
> I just like to hear at which points there was no satisfaction with the MPT 76, we should hear it from brothers and try to perfect it.



I believe some insider might know the details of the trials, but as far as we know CZ Bren and FN SCAR went through trials in the final stages. However today an MOU was signed between POF and Belgium, so I believe its FN SCAR.

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## my name is nobody

PM is holding CZ BREN 7,62x39 most probably.
Last leak of information is that CZ went exceptionally well in trials with 7,62x51. Second day IDEAS they might be signing some agreement with POF. I´ve heard it has beaten SCAR in accuracy by far.

Let´s see what will happen but it is certain we have 3 competitors


----------



## khanasifm

http://www.fnherstal.com/primary-menu/about-us.html

Since 1997, Herstal Group has been 100% owned by the Walloon Region of Belgium. With manufacturing locations in Belgium, US, UK, Portugal, Japan and Finland, the global Herstal Group provides employment to a workforce of about 2,400 people.


----------



## Zarvan

MadDog said:


> I believe some insider might know the details of the trials, but as far as we know CZ Bren and FN SCAR went through trials in the final stages. However today an MOU was signed between POF and Belgium, so I believe its FN SCAR.


I am also trying to get that confirmed


----------



## JK!

A new rifle may bring improved reliability and capability in the field but what about ancillaries?

For example what about sights and optics. Both for day and night capability. Are there any plans for this as well?

A nice looking rifle is one thing but relying on the iron sights will not improve a soldiers war fighting ability.

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## Sulman Badshah

according to military technology

CZ have been shortlisted along with FN, Barretta and HK

according to Head of Sports and Display Team Jakub Sondel

A batch of 30 rifles have been provided for the test and user trials, firing ammunition provided by Pakistan. “The test conditions have been very comprehensive: the BREN2 has performed in the Himalayas, in a desert environment at up to 54°C, in marine conditions near Karachi and in a wide variety of specific test scenarios
http://www.miltechmag.com/2016/09/cz-shortlisted-for-pakistani-order.html


----------



## Zarvan

*CZ Shortlisted for Pakistani Order*

Celebrating its 80th year in business in 2016, Czech arms manufacturer Ceska zbrojovka a.s. (CZ) has been shortlisted as a contender for a requirement for one million assault rifles from the Pakistani Armed Forces.

Talking to international media at the company’s headquarters in Uhersky Brod on 8 September, *Head of Sports and Display Team Jakub Sondel *revealed that the newly developed CZ 805 BREN2 assault rifle, in 5.56 x45 NATO calibre, has been under evaluation in Pakistan since the beginning of 2016. A batch of 30 rifles have been provided for the test and user trials, firing ammunition provided by Pakistan. “_The test conditions have been very comprehensive: the BREN2 has performed in the Himalayas, in a desert environment at up to 54°C, in marine conditions near Karachi and in a wide variety of specific test scenarios_,” he said.

Surely one of the largest small arms contracts to be awarded in the foreseeable future, the Pakistani competition includes a requirement for technology transfer and licence manufacture – a scenario Sondel asserts lies at the heart of CZ’s continuing development strategy. *“The results to date have been very encouraging and we have every reason to believe we are a very strong contender for this order,” he said, adding that other manufacturers remaining in the competition include Beretta, FN Herstal and Heckler & Koch.*

The BREN2 is the standard rifle of the Czech Army and a new generation of the weapon has been developed over the last three years, featuring advanced ergonomics and a significantly lower weight. Approval of the new generation by the Czech military came within the last two months, according to Sondel.








Posted by MILITARY TECHNOLOGY at 07:20 

http://www.miltechmag.com/2016/09/cz-shortlisted-for-pakistani-order.html


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## 50cent

We should go for accuracy maybe a semi automatic short sniper rifle



my name is nobody said:


> PM is holding CZ BREN 7,62x39 most probably.
> Last leak of information is that CZ went exceptionally well in trials with 7,62x51. Second day IDEAS they might be signing some agreement with POF. I´ve heard it has beaten SCAR in accuracy by far.
> 
> Let´s see what will happen but it is certain we have 3 competitors


If this true then HK and cz are main competitor in accuracy these are last two remaning


----------



## Zarvan

SCAR is sheer beauty

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## Thunder.Storm

Daily NewsAhmet Gozutok
November 23, 2016, Wednesday 13:18476086
between Pakistan and Turkey to announce record deal. Pakistan, according to the agreement, the value of 2 billion dollars, 40 attack helicopters, buy a million rifle!

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/pakistan...-million-assault-rifles.462755/#ixzz4Qqxucf24


----------



## Zarvan

Thunder.Storm said:


> Daily NewsAhmet Gozutok
> November 23, 2016, Wednesday 13:18476086
> between Pakistan and Turkey to announce record deal. Pakistan, according to the agreement, the value of 2 billion dollars, 40 attack helicopters, buy a million rifle!
> 
> Source: https://defence.pk/threads/pakistan...-million-assault-rifles.462755/#ixzz4Qqxucf24


No deal for T-129 has been signed and MPT-76 is not coming. MPT-76 is not even in the trials any more. The last 4 Rifles in the trials are SCAR and Beretta and HK and Bren.


----------



## Naveed66

Zarvan said:


> No deal for T-129 has been signed and MPT-76 is not coming. MPT-76 is not even in the trials any more. The last 4 Rifles in the trials are SCAR and Beretta and HK and Bren.


which HK rifle it is 

any one have pic of ARX200 in stall at IDEAS 2016


----------



## Zarvan

Naveed66 said:


> which HK rifle it is
> 
> any one have pic of ARX200 in stall at IDEAS 2016


HK 417 most probably. There is no other rifle from HK which we would test.


----------



## Naveed66

Zarvan said:


> HK 417 most probably. There is no other rifle from HK which we would test.


i have a feeling that we have selected CZ 806 BREN 2 



Zarvan said:


> HK 417 most probably. There is no other rifle from HK which we would test.


but there was no HK when COAS visited POF in march. when 5 rifles are being tested.


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## Zarvan

Naveed66 said:


> i have a feeling that we have selected CZ 806 BREN 2
> 
> 
> but there was no HK when COAS visited POF in march. when 5 rifles are being tested.



No we haven't 4 Rifles are in competition and soon we would know who won



Naveed66 said:


> i have a feeling that we have selected CZ 806 BREN 2
> 
> 
> but there was no HK when COAS visited POF in march. when 5 rifles are being tested.



I think it entered late that is we may see another winter trials to determine which Rifle performs best @Arsalan It seem my source was right on Rifles going for another winter trial taking place. @Path-Finder


----------



## Naveed66

Zarvan said:


> No we haven't 4 Rifles are in competition and soon we would know who won


dont tell me we have to wait till IDEAS 2018


----------



## Zarvan

Naveed66 said:


> dont tell me we have to wait till IDEAS 2018


No we would soon hear the winner I think we would hear it about in February or March next year. @Horus


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## Naveed66

i think CZ 806 BREN 2 is selected for 7.62x 39 calibar.


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## Zarvan

Naveed66 said:


> i think CZ 806 BREN 2 is selected for 7.62x 39 calibar.


SCAR and Berreta are also offering 7.62 x 39 version but if HK is really in the trials than because we are used to using G3 weapons I am seriously feel scared that HK 417 may come instead of SCAR. HK 417 is second favorite Gun for me but SCAR is the best @Sulman Badshah


----------



## my name is nobody

News from IDEAS:

No HK present
FN did not show any 7,62x39 and it was not offered or trialed
Beretta did show 7,62x39 but it was not trialed
CZ signed MOU with POF for full ToT for both calibers and maybe even MP 5 replacement

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

my name is nobody said:


> News from IDEAS:
> 
> No HK present
> FN did not show any 7,62x39 and it was not offered or trialed
> Beretta did show 7,62x39 but it was not trialed
> CZ signed MOU with POF for full ToT for both calibers and maybe even MP 5 replacement


The LoU with CZ is regarding the BREN, right?


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

> The 3rd LOU was signed between POF and M/s. CeskaZbrojovka, Czech Republic. According to LOU M/s. CeskaZbrojovka, Czech Republic and Pakistan Ordnance Factories declared that they will intensively negotiate a delivery of complete technology for the production of small arms to Pakistan Ordnance Factories, POF. Mutual interest refers to gradual launching of production in Pakistan, ranging from light assembly to maximum localization of production. Within this cooperation, transfer of technology as well as technical support including technical training of the personnel for Pakistan Ordnance Factories is expected.



http://www.radio.gov.pk/24-Nov-2016...-signed-during-ideas-2016-underway-in-karachi

@That Guy @Arsalan

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## MadDog

Zarvan said:


> *CZ Shortlisted for Pakistani Order*
> 
> Celebrating its 80th year in business in 2016, Czech arms manufacturer Ceska zbrojovka a.s. (CZ) has been shortlisted as a contender for a requirement for one million assault rifles from the Pakistani Armed Forces.
> 
> Talking to international media at the company’s headquarters in Uhersky Brod on 8 September, *Head of Sports and Display Team Jakub Sondel *revealed that the newly developed CZ 805 BREN2 assault rifle, in 5.56 x45 NATO calibre, has been under evaluation in Pakistan since the beginning of 2016. A batch of 30 rifles have been provided for the test and user trials, firing ammunition provided by Pakistan. “_The test conditions have been very comprehensive: the BREN2 has performed in the Himalayas, in a desert environment at up to 54°C, in marine conditions near Karachi and in a wide variety of specific test scenarios_,” he said.
> 
> Surely one of the largest small arms contracts to be awarded in the foreseeable future, the Pakistani competition includes a requirement for technology transfer and licence manufacture – a scenario Sondel asserts lies at the heart of CZ’s continuing development strategy. *“The results to date have been very encouraging and we have every reason to believe we are a very strong contender for this order,” he said, adding that other manufacturers remaining in the competition include Beretta, FN Herstal and Heckler & Koch.*
> 
> The BREN2 is the standard rifle of the Czech Army and a new generation of the weapon has been developed over the last three years, featuring advanced ergonomics and a significantly lower weight. Approval of the new generation by the Czech military came within the last two months, according to Sondel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Posted by MILITARY TECHNOLOGY at 07:20
> 
> http://www.miltechmag.com/2016/09/cz-shortlisted-for-pakistani-order.html



5.56 NATO calibre , that's a massive change if true


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## django

@Zarvan 
16:14, MPT-76 is still in the play

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## Zarvan

django said:


> @Zarvan
> 16:14, MPT-76 is still in the play


It's not MPT-76 is out of the game

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## django

Zarvan said:


> It's not MPT-76 is out of the game


Is that an assumption or a corroborated fact, BTW I too am heavily in favour of SCAR.Kudos


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## Zarvan

django said:


> Is that an assumption or a corroborated fact, BTW I too am heavily in favour of SCAR.Kudos


It's a fact. MPT-76 is no more in the game

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## LegitimateIdiot

Zarvan said:


> SCAR is sheer beauty


reminds me of my face

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## That Guy

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> http://www.radio.gov.pk/24-Nov-2016...-signed-during-ideas-2016-underway-in-karachi
> 
> @That Guy @Arsalan


What does this mean? Is PA seriously considering buying the Bren-2? Or is this just a deal between POF and CZ to produce some other rifles?


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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> No we haven't 4 Rifles are in competition and soon we would know who won
> 
> 
> 
> I think it entered late that is we may see another winter trials to determine which Rifle performs best @Arsalan It seem my source was right on Rifles going for another winter trial taking place. @Path-Finder


Not ALL of them as i told you earlier plus not very critical step that. Two top priorities and one Second priority already forwarded and the second priority is also met our requirements. It is one of these that is likely to be selected. The winter trials are not part of a full blown selection process but there might be evaluation of some specific features of just some specific guns. Dont know how much more is available and thus can be shared so that is all that should be said for now.

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## TaimiKhan

I am trying to get full info, but from past discussions with some links to insiders, it may seem that cz bren has been selected as smg replacement for ak-47. Army was for past few years trying to replace ak 47s. 

If so, then race for assault rifle is still on. 

Pak army still going with a 2 tier system, 1 smg option to replace ak47s and mp5s and 2nd an assault rifle. 

I will try to get more info.

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## Zarvan

TaimiKhan said:


> I am trying to get full info, but from past discussions with some links to insiders, it may seem that cz bren has been selected as smg replacement for ak-47. Army was for past few years trying to replace ak 47s.
> 
> If so, then race for assault rifle is still on.
> 
> Pak army still going with a 2 tier system, 1 smg option to replace ak47s and mp5s and 2nd an assault rifle.
> 
> I will try to get more info.


Thank you Sir !!! Please try to get more information because confusion is now becoming hilarious also raising questions on credibility of whole process. @Rafi

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## Path-Finder

TaimiKhan said:


> I am trying to get full info, but from past discussions with some links to insiders, it may seem that cz bren has been selected as smg replacement for ak-47. Army was for past few years trying to replace ak 47s.
> 
> If so, then race for assault rifle is still on.
> 
> Pak army still going with a 2 tier system, 1 smg option to replace ak47s and mp5s and 2nd an assault rifle.
> 
> I will try to get more info.


This means CZ will replace Type56 & MP5 with CZ BREN and CZ Scorpion 9x19 Submachine Gun. meanwhile the battle between SCAR & ARX200 is still ongoing. @Zarvan

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## AMG_12

django said:


> Is that an assumption or a corroborated fact, BTW I too am heavily in favour of SCAR.Kudos


assumption, most of his facts originate from other members of this forum.

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## Zarvan

Game.Invade said:


> assumption, most of his facts originate from other members of this forum.


MPT 76 is not being considered. It was even tested before these Rifle Trials begun. It wasn't satisfying not even close


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## AMG_12

Zarvan said:


> MPT 76 is not being considered. It was even tested before these Rifle Trials begun. It wasn't satisfying not even close


See, that's an assumption. If our military could select everything on the basis of satisfaction, the world would've been a better place.

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> MPT 76 is not being considered. It was even tested before these Rifle Trials begun. It wasn't satisfying not even close


 according to the MKEK Rep in IDEAS it still is in the competition! so let's *not* assume things out of thin air and wait for final decision!!!

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> according to the MKEK Rep in IDEAS it still is in the competition! so let's *not* assume things out of thin air and wait for final decision!!!


It's not in the competition. Bro it's out and it was long ago


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> It's not in the competition. Bro it's out and it was long ago


let's wait for official announcement I know you are impatient but let's be patient a little more!


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## Arsalan

TaimiKhan said:


> I am trying to get full info, but from past discussions with some links to insiders, it may seem that cz bren has been selected as smg replacement for ak-47. Army was for past few years trying to replace ak 47s.
> 
> If so, then race for assault rifle is still on.
> 
> Pak army still going with a 2 tier system, 1 smg option to replace ak47s and mp5s and 2nd an assault rifle.
> 
> I will try to get more info.


SMG was always separate man. Dont know when and why people started mixing it up with the assault rifle procurement.


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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> SMG was always separate man. Dont know when and why people started mixing it up with the assault rifle procurement.


You never said it was separate. By the way from SMG you mean replacing MP5 or Type 56 ?


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## muhammadali233




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## PWFI

Zarvan said:


> You never said it was separate. By the way from SMG you mean replacing MP5 or Type 56 ?


Few years ago (4-5 years) PA wanted to get ride of MP5s and Type56s, Vz58 came on top---then what happened, God know best.

P.S: PA wanted SMG in 7.62x39mm


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## Zarvan

PWFI said:


> Few years ago (4-5 years) PA wanted to get ride of MP5s and Type56s, Vz58 came on top---then what happened, God know best.
> 
> P.S: PA wanted SMG in 7.62x39mm


What I know is companies are giving permission to export even if we have to take help from Qatar or KSA we should do it and produce more than one rifle series at POF.


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> What I know is companies are giving permission to export even if we have to take help from Qatar or KSA we should do it and produce more than one rifle series at POF.


producing too many rifles is not feasible and no country can do that the reason for trials is to fulfil Pak requirements first then help others with orders.


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> producing too many rifles is not feasible and no country can do that the reason for trials is to fulfil Pak requirements first then help others with orders.


It would get feasible. KSA and Turkey are now being banned from getting weapons from many European countries. And if we can get weapons with TOT and permission to export we can ask KSA and other to fund them. Also we have massive civilian market.


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## Naveed66

after following ideas 2016 from last few days i can easily say we have choosen CZ 806 BREN 2 to replace our type 56 and that have been confirmed. For 7.62x51 the competition is now between FN SCAR and BERETTA ARX200


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Naveed66 said:


> after following ideas 2016 from last few days i can easily say we have choosen CZ 806 BREN 2 to replace our type 56 and that have been confirmed. For 7.62x51 the competition is now between FN SCAR and BERETTA ARX200


Seems that way. My guess is that we'll produce the CZ-806 BREN 2 at POF for the Army and paramilitary forces, but also buy some SCAR H or ARX-200 for SSG, SSW, SSGN, etc.

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## Zarvan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Seems that way. My guess is that we'll produce the CZ-806 BREN 2 at POF for the Army and paramilitary forces, but also buy some SCAR H or ARX-200 for SSG, SSW, SSGN, etc.



Pakistani infantry would stick to 7.62 x 51 so we can't buy million rifles. We have to produce them. There is no way we are buying 1 million even more rifles from countries. SSG and SSGN and SSW are already using weapons of there choice and they can get more. The competition is for mainly replacing G3 and Type 56. So either Bren if chosen will come up with 7.62 X 51 version also or SCAR H or Berreta ARX 200 will be produced in Pakistan.


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## Thorough Pro

Do you have any self respect?



Zarvan said:


> What I know is companies are giving permission to export *even if we have to take help from Qatar or KSA we should do it* and produce more than one rifle series at POF.

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## Zarvan

Thorough Pro said:


> Do you have any self respect?


Yes I have your nuclear program is also funded by Arabs many times should I tell you How many times they have funded other projects. This time is different because Europe is banning weapons sales KSA so if they invest at POF and us producing best Rifle series of the world with export permission these same Arab countries would be buying from us. So it's pure business


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## Thorough Pro

Cut that crap, I know about the funding of that program much more than you do, besides geo-politics of 80's was much different from geo-politics of 2016



Zarvan said:


> Yes I have your nuclear program is also funded by Arabs many times should I tell you How many times they have funded other projects. This time is different because Europe is banning weapons sales KSA so if they invest at POF and us producing best Rifle series of the world with export permission these same Arab countries would be buying from us. So it's pure business


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## Zarvan

Thorough Pro said:


> Cut that crap, I know about the funding of that program much more than you do, besides geo-politics of 80's was much different from geo-politics of 2016


It's not different when it comes to Arab countries. Pretty much the same and also this investment from Arab would also benefit them as they would be able to buy world class weapons from us without any strings attached.


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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> You never said it was separate. By the way from SMG you mean replacing MP5 or Type 56 ?



That is because i am not SAYING a lot of things. I never do. However the fact is that you CANNOT compare an SMG requirement with an assault rifle requirement and merge both. I mean, i dont think that this even required to be said. Isn't is obvious and common sense. 
I did told you however, numerous times that the news we (the public) will hear will be of selection of a gun replacing the gun of whole army but that it wont be the case in actual and there will be some thousand guns procured first, distributed and then the next batches will come only AFTER that have been done and guns are used and confirmed ok at unit level.

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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> That is because i am not SAYING a lot of things. I never do. However the fact is that you CANNOT compare an SMG requirement with an assault rifle requirement and merge both. I mean, i dont think that this even required to be said. Isn't is obvious and common sense.
> I did told you however, numerous times that the news we (the public) will hear will be of selection of a gun replacing the gun of whole army but that it wont be the case in actual and there will be some thousand guns procured first, distributed and then the next batches will come only AFTER that have been done and guns are used and confirmed ok at unit level.



Now I am more than sure Pakistan will produce more than two rifles. Specially if Pakistan plans to use two Assault Rifles one for conventional warfare and one for Guerrilla warfare because for both we would need around 1 million rifles and sorry but buying them is way to expensive. Also stupid enough not produce them in Pakistan if you are also getting not just TOT but permission to export them.


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## Zulqarnain.Ali

Zarvan said:


> Now I am more than sure Pakistan will produce more than two rifles. Specially if Pakistan plans to use two Assault Rifles one for conventional warfare and one for Guerrilla warfare because for both we would need around 1 million rifles and sorry but buying them is way to expensive. Also stupid enough not produce them in Pakistan if you are also getting not just TOT but permission to export them.




Everyone knows your opinion.why do you have to keep repeating it a hundred times over?

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## Wolfhound

Still waiting for any kind of confirmation by the officials


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## Thorough Pro

You not only live in your own reality but you also know everything.




Zarvan said:


> Now I am more than sure Pakistan will produce more than two rifles. Specially if Pakistan plans to use two Assault Rifles one for conventional warfare and one for Guerrilla warfare because for both we would need around 1 million rifles and sorry but buying them is way to expensive. Also stupid enough not produce them in Pakistan if you are also getting not just TOT but permission to export them.


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## SQ8

Arsalan said:


> That is because i am not SAYING a lot of things. I never do. However the fact is that you CANNOT compare an SMG requirement with an assault rifle requirement and merge both. I mean, i dont think that this even required to be said. Isn't is obvious and common sense.
> I did told you however, numerous times that the news we (the public) will hear will be of selection of a gun replacing the gun of whole army but that it wont be the case in actual and there will be some thousand guns procured first, distributed and then the next batches will come only AFTER that have been done and guns are used and confirmed ok at unit level.


Rumours are abound that the whole thing might be in doldrums due to greased palms of some 2 stars and up along with a host of bureaucrats and government officials, and a less than astute system might be purchased under the guise of savings for the national exchequer.

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## Thorough Pro

KSA can buy anything it needs from anywhere it wants. Period.
Turkey makes it's own small arms, they are self sufficient in small arms manufacture. In fact Turkish made small arms enjoy a major share in Pakistani civilian arms market. Recent launch of 9mm pistols by POF was with the help of Turkey. You need to do some homework before making a fool out of yourself. 



Zarvan said:


> It would get feasible. KSA and Turkey are now being banned from getting weapons from many European countries. And if we can get weapons with TOT and permission to export we can ask KSA and other to fund them. Also we have massive civilian market.


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## TheDarkKnight

Oscar said:


> Rumours are abound that the whole thing might be in doldrums due to greased palms of some 2 stars and up along with a host of bureaucrats and government officials, and a less than astute system might be purchased under the guise of savings for the national exchequer.



I find it hard to believe that arx and scar are less than 'astute systems', which are the so called finalists for PA; so keeping this in mind and also considering your views as authentic, then it looks like you are referring to MPT76, the only cadidate that in my opinion can be considered less capable than scar and arx and, its selection can also fit your reference to 'national exchequer' savings.

Regards


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## Zarvan

Thorough Pro said:


> KSA can buy anything it needs from anywhere it wants. Period.
> Turkey makes it's own small arms, they are self sufficient in small arms manufacture. In fact Turkish made small arms enjoy a major share in Pakistani civilian arms market. Recent launch of 9mm pistols by POF was with the help of Turkey. You need to do some homework before making a fool out of yourself.


Germany and Sweden and Belgium and many other countries are putting ban on Arab countries of weapons sales. That is why we are biggest exporters of small arms to Saudi Arabia now. Yes Turkey is efficient but many African countries and many Arab countries and many South American countries are not. We already export weapons to 40 countries and we can increase the market share with new latest Assault Rifles produced by POF.


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## Thorough Pro

Let's talk facts and not just tall claims, what small arms do we export to KSA and what's the value? and how much of that export is for use by Saudi forces and how much is transferred to various militia's around the world? 




Zarvan said:


> Germany and Sweden and Belgium and many other countries are putting ban on Arab countries of weapons sales. *That is why we are biggest exporters of small arms to Saudi Arabia now*. Yes Turkey is efficient but many African countries and many Arab countries and many South American countries are not. We already export weapons to 40 countries and we can increase the market share with new latest Assault Rifles produced by POF.


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## Zarvan

Thorough Pro said:


> Let's talk facts and not just tall claims, what small arms do we export to KSA and what's the value? and how much of that export is for use by Saudi forces and how much is transferred to various militia's around the world?


Most of G3 used by KSA are from us we are also main supplier of ammo to them. Also we are increasing sales to them. And if we can get our hands on SCAR with permission to export KSA will one of our major markets.


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## Thorough Pro

No they "were" not of Pakistani origin, btw most of them were replaced by G36.
Why don't you give me actual figures in a currency (with citation) how much small arms Pakistan exports to KSA, being there largest small arms supplier.



Zarvan said:


> Most of G3 used by KSA are from us we are also main supplier of ammo to them. Also we are increasing sales to them. And if we can get our hands on SCAR with permission to export KSA will one of our major markets.

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## Zarvan

Thorough Pro said:


> No they "were" not of Pakistani origin, btw most of them were replaced by G36.
> Why don't you give me actual figures in a currency (with citation) how much small arms Pakistan exports to KSA, being there largest small arms supplier.


Yes they were replaced by G36 now Germany has put ban on sales of G36 and they are also not getting spare parts. Well no exact figures are told by POF but we are biggest supplier right now. And as bans are increasing our exports will increase

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## Thorough Pro

KSA is worlds largest importer of arms.
Pakistan is not even in the top 30 exporters. You see the gap? If as per your claims Pakistan was KSA's largest small arms supplier, then it should be in top 10 list? does this logic makes sense to you? does any sane thing makes sense to you besides your own facts in your own world? you spent hours and hours spreading rumors and false facts on the forum , use that time to learn, there is so much info available on the net free of cost. 




Zarvan said:


> Yes they were replaced by G36 now Germany has put ban on sales of G36 and they are also not getting spare parts. Well no exact figures are told by POF but we are biggest supplier right now. And as bans are increasing our exports will increase


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## Zarvan

Thorough Pro said:


> KSA is worlds largest importer of arms.
> Pakistan is not even in the top 30 exporters. You see the gap? If as per your claims Pakistan was KSA's largest small arms supplier, then it should be in top 10 list? does this logic makes sense to you? does any sane thing makes sense to you besides your own facts in your own world? you spent hours and hours spreading rumors and false facts on the forum , use that time to learn, there is so much info available on the net free of cost.


Yes we are the largest exporter of weapons to them. And I was the one who told about Pakistan working on mini nuclear submarine and every body like you made fun of me and after few months Oscar confirmed. I also told about several other weapons people like again talked crap and I was proven right on the spot. Pakistan is biggest exporter of small arms to Saudi Arabia I give a dam of what you believe remain.


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## Thorough Pro

come out of your delusional world, I knew about the nuclear sub a decade ago, but I don't suffer from oral diarrhea like you. I know about things now that you'll find out in next 10 years.



Zarvan said:


> Yes we are the largest exporter of weapons to them. And I was the one who told about Pakistan working on mini nuclear submarine and every body like you made fun of me and after few months Oscar confirmed. I also told about several other weapons people like again talked crap and I was proven right on the spot. Pakistan is biggest exporter of small arms to Saudi Arabia I give a dam of what you believe remain.


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## MystryMan

Oscar said:


> Rumours are abound that the whole thing might be in doldrums due to greased palms of some 2 stars and up along with a host of bureaucrats and government officials, and a less than astute system might be purchased under the guise of savings for the national exchequer.



We were hoping that under GRS the selection process will be based on merits (performance and financial). But as he has retired now so may be some people now trying to make a quick buck. 
Lets hope that the new COAS makes the right decision.

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## Zarvan

MystryMan said:


> We were hoping that under GRS the selection process will be based on merits (performance and financial). But as he has retired now so may be some people now trying to make a quick buck.
> Lets hope that the new COAS makes the right decision.


When we can expect the announcement ?


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## MystryMan

Zarvan said:


> When we can expect the announcement ?


Bro, I'm just a enthusiast like many here, not an insider or having any sources. So can't answer your question, sorry.

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## Tank131

If ARX and SCAR are the finalists then what merrit do we afford the news of POFs LoU regarding the production of small arms which Czech Republic? One would assume such an agreement would include production of CZ 806 Bren2. There is something to be said for its selection given how willing Ceska Zbrojovka has beem to provide interative upgrades and modifications to the rifle. Pakistan would be able to make something that is all its own using the Bren 2 as its starting point.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Tank131 said:


> If ARX and SCAR are the finalists then what merrit do we afford the news of POFs LoU regarding the production of small arms which Czech Republic? One would assume such an agreement would include production of CZ 806 Bren2. There is something to be said for its selection given how willing Ceska Zbrojovka has beem to provide interative upgrades and modifications to the rifle. Pakistan would be able to make something that is all its own using the Bren 2 as its starting point.


The LoU happened, but even if the CZ-806 BREN 2 is selected as the standard issue rifle (produced at POF), I don't think that the SCAR-H or ARX-200 are out of the question. Specific units, e.g. SOF and CPEC Security Division, could still end up getting the SCAR or ARX, especially in the interim as the POF transitions to manufacturing the BREN.

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## Zarvan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The LoU happened, but even if the CZ-806 BREN 2 is selected as the standard issue rifle (produced at POF), I don't think that the SCAR-H or ARX-200 are out of the question. Specific units, e.g. SOF and CPEC Security Division, could still end up getting the SCAR or ARX, especially in the interim as the POF transitions to manufacturing the BREN.


Sir are you suggesting that Pakistani infantry will adopt 7.62 x 39 caliber now and drop 7.62 x 51 caliber ?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Zarvan said:


> Sir are you suggesting that Pakistani infantry will adopt 7.62 x 39 caliber now and drop 7.62 x 51 caliber ?


No. I am saying that the average soldier will probably get a BREN variant - 7.62x39 and/or 7.62x51 - and the SOF, CPEC Security Division, elite police units, etc, will get SCAR-H or ARX-200. 

Remember, it'll be some years before we get BRENs in production at POF, and many more years before new rifles are in the hands of the regular infantry. But priority units (e.g. SOF) need new rifles soon, so we may do a small off-the-shelf (e.g. 30,000) order from FN Herstal or Beretta.

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## Zarvan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> No. I am saying that the average soldier will probably get a BREN variant - 7.62x39 and/or 7.62x51 - and the SOF, CPEC Security Division, elite police units, etc, will get SCAR-H or ARX-200.
> 
> Remember, it'll be some years before we get BRENs in production at POF, and many more years before new rifles are in the hands of the regular infantry. But priority units (e.g. SOF) need new rifles soon, so we may do a small off-the-shelf (e.g. 30,000) order from FN Herstal or Beretta.



Sir Bren hasn't come up with 7.62 X 51 version yet and I hardly doubt that Pakistan will now wait for first Bren to come up with 7.62 X 51 version and test it again. Also I hardly doubt infantry would shift to 7.62 x 51. Lastly I think Pakistan may go for SCAR H or Berreta and this Bren may come in handy or we opt for both. Because out of 14 MOU signed by Pakistan 5 to 6 were signed by POF. And even before these MOU POF has also signed deals with Turkey and Italy for POF upgradation. This kind of massive upgradation can't be only to produce one rifle. We are doing something else here so now let's wait and see what happens.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Zarvan said:


> Sir Bren hasn't come up with 7.62 X 51 version yet and I hardly doubt that Pakistan will now wait for first Bren to come up with 7.62 X 51 version and test it again. Also I hardly doubt infantry would shift to 7.62 x 51. Lastly I think Pakistan may go for SCAR H or Berreta and this Bren may come in handy or we opt for both. Because out of 14 MOU signed by Pakistan 5 to 6 were signed by POF. And even before these MOU POF has also signed deals with Turkey and Italy for POF upgradation. This kind of massive upgradation can't be only to produce one rifle. We are doing something else here so now let's wait and see what happens.


I took a look at the agreements signed by POF. There was only **one** agreement - an LoU - signed with a gun manufacturer and that was CZ, you can read it below.

_The 3rd LOU was signed between POF and M/s. CeskaZbrojovka, Czech Republic. According to LOU M/s. CeskaZbrojovka, Czech Republic and Pakistan Ordnance Factories declared that they will intensively negotiate a delivery of complete technology for the production of small arms to Pakistan Ordnance Factories, POF. Mutual interest refers to gradual launching of production in Pakistan, ranging from light assembly to maximum localization of production. Within this cooperation, transfer of technology as well as technical support including technical training of the personnel for Pakistan Ordnance Factories is expected.
_​The rest of the MoUs and LoUs were in relation to factory technology, ammunition, etc, including the one with Belgium which was for a primer/paint facility. The only reason why we keep bringing up the BREN now is because it is the only manufacturer POF has negotiations (for ToT) planned, no one else. We can keep on waiting, but as it stands right now and based on what people who visited IDEAS are saying, CZ is at the center now.

As for waiting for a 7.62x51 version of the BREN. Why not? You were willing to wait for the 7.62x39 version of the SCAR not too long ago, why change the view for the BREN? Functionally, the Army has tested the BREN 2's core mechanics, weight, durability, etc. They understand the platform. Second, the BREN is a modular design, it wouldn't take long for CZ to come up with 7.62x51, just as it didn't take them long to come up with the 7.62x39 version.

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## my name is nobody

In fact 7,62x51 version of BREN had been already tested in Pakistan. It was shown at the IDEAS but no pictures were allowed. There was also a proof target from testing. It has better accuracy then both SCAR and ARX

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## Rana4pak

Can any body tell the price difference b/w arx 200.scar H and bren 806


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## Path-Finder

my name is nobody said:


> In fact 7,62x51 version of BREN had been already tested in Pakistan. It was shown at the IDEAS but no pictures were allowed. There was also a proof target from testing. It has better accuracy then both SCAR and ARX


This is breaking news!



Zarvan said:


> Sir Bren hasn't come up with 7.62 X 51 version yet and I hardly doubt that Pakistan will now wait for first Bren to come up with 7.62 X 51 version and test it again. Also I hardly doubt infantry would shift to 7.62 x 51. Lastly I think Pakistan may go for SCAR H or Berreta and this Bren may come in handy or we opt for both. Because out of 14 MOU signed by Pakistan 5 to 6 were signed by POF. And even before these MOU POF has also signed deals with Turkey and Italy for POF upgradation. This kind of massive upgradation can't be only to produce one rifle. We are doing something else here so now let's wait and see what happens.


Zarvan the easiest possible way is to see that BREN as a gun based on SCAR design thus a SCAR with CZ label is coming and that is something to be happy about! I see why BREN has been selected because they offered the best package. Commiserations, the FN SCAR is not coming (possibly) But CZ SCAR is coming. 

@Suff Shikan did you see a 7.62x51 BREN at CZ booth?

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## Suff Shikan

You mean this?

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## Path-Finder

Suff Shikan said:


> View attachment 357044
> You mean this?


no thats 5.56, that means 7.62x51 is not yet made public by CZ


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## Suff Shikan

Path-Finder said:


> no thats 5.56, that means 7.62x51 is not yet made public by CZ


I think the Chacha jee the guy with glasses is from POF , he was asking about ammunition calibre from the foreign representative at stall.

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## Zarvan

Suff Shikan said:


> View attachment 357044
> You mean this?


This is not 7.62 x 51 version



Suff Shikan said:


> View attachment 357045
> 
> 
> 
> I think the Chacha jee the guy with glasses is from POF , he was asking about ammunition calibre from the foreign representative at stall.


I seriously doubt that Bren displayed 7.62 x 51 caliber at IDEAS. Maybe @skybolt can end the confusion here

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## MystryMan

Path-Finder said:


> This is breaking news!
> 
> 
> Zarvan the easiest possible way is to see that BREN as a gun based on SCAR design thus a SCAR with CZ label is coming and that is something to be happy about! I see why BREN has been selected because they offered the best package. Commiserations, the FN SCAR is not coming (possibly) But CZ SCAR is coming.
> 
> @Suff Shikan did you see a 7.62x51 BREN at CZ booth?



Until a few days ago the assumption was that may be BREN is selected for 7.62x39 while SCAR and ARX are still competing for 7.62x51.
Personally I would like PA to select a single type for both 7.62x39 and x51 to make training and logistics simple and economical.


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## Path-Finder

MystryMan said:


> Until a few days ago the assumption was that may be BREN is selected for 7.62x39 while SCAR and ARX are still competing for 7.62x51.
> Personally I would like PA to select a single type for both 7.62x39 and x51 to make training and logistics simple and economical.


BREN rifle is clearly a Czech version of SCAR rifle thus a x51 version Has to coming soon! so I hope Zarvan can settle in or make peace with himself that *'a'* SCAR is coming . But seriously I believe a great decision is made by the brass and hopefully BREN in x51 will be unveiled fairly soon.


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> BREN rifle is clearly a Czech version of SCAR rifle thus a x51 version Has to coming soon! so I hope Zarvan can settle in or make peace with himself that *'a'* SCAR is coming . But seriously I believe a great decision is made by the brass and hopefully BREN in x51 will be unveiled fairly soon.


I have checked with several friends who went to IDEAS there was no 7.62 X 51 version of BREN displayed. 7.62 X 39 version was there which was named CZ 807 but not 7.62 X 51


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> I have checked with several friends who went to IDEAS there was no 7.62 X 51 version of BREN displayed. 7.62 X 39 version was there which was named CZ 807 but not 7.62 X 51


clearly you didn't read what I said properly and fished out the info that made sense to you!


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> clearly you didn't read what I said properly and fished out the info that made sense to you!


I doubt that Pakistan will wait for Bren to come up with 7.62 x 51 version and than test it. Something else is going on here and I am hoping we would get the answer soon.


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> I doubt that Pakistan will wait for Bren to come up with 7.62 x 51 version and than test it. Something else is going on here and I am hoping we would get the answer soon.


ok zarvan keep the faith in SCAR no one is stopping you! The trials have lasted a year and nothing other than BREN has been hinted at. Fact!


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> ok zarvan keep the faith in SCAR no one is stopping you! The trials have lasted a year and nothing other than BREN has been hinted at. Fact!


If Pakistan plans to wait than you can forget rifle trials. Because even testing new version would at least take 6 months. Than deciding on that so either we are shifting caliber or going to two Rifles something else is going on. Because currently Bren has only 7.62 X 39 and one 5.56 X vs 45 version but no X 51. @Horus also needs to check with Armed forces about these trials.


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> If Pakistan plans to wait than you can forget rifle trials. Because even testing new version would at least take 6 months. Than deciding on that so either we are shifting caliber or going to two Rifles something else is going on. Because currently Bren has only 7.62 X 39 and one 5.56 X vs 45 version but no X 51. @Horus also needs to check with Armed forces about these trials.


again no one has any credible info and all the members who said it is as good as done, SCAR will be selected and BREN has been kicked out of the trials and so on. MOU has been in action with CZ. what it entails remains to be seen but what if a x51 rifle is in the pipeline and PA may wait for it! despite your wish to manufacture two or more rifles at POF is simply not feasible. as of yet SCAR or ARX's future is uncertain unless the trials will run again that no one knows!

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> again no one has any credible info and all the members who said it is as good as done, SCAR will be selected and BREN has been kicked out of the trials and so on. MOU has been in action with CZ. what it entails remains to be seen but what if a x51 rifle is in the pipeline and PA may wait for it! despite your wish to manufacture two or more rifles at POF is simply not feasible. as of yet SCAR or ARX's future is uncertain unless the trials will run again that no one knows!



According to various guys including senior guys on this forum trials are not over yet. Trials are still taking place and so are talks. So we would have to wait and see what is going on.


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> According to various guys including senior guys on this forum trials are not over yet. Trials are still taking place and so are talks. So we would have to wait and see what is going on.


lets be a little patient then i suggest!


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## MystryMan

Path-Finder said:


> BREN rifle is clearly a Czech version of SCAR rifle thus a x51 version Has to coming soon! so I hope Zarvan can settle in or make peace with himself that *'a'* SCAR is coming . But seriously I believe a great decision is made by the brass and hopefully BREN in x51 will be unveiled fairly soon.


Can you elaborate how exactly a BREN assault rifle is a clone of SCAR? Thanks


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## Path-Finder

MystryMan said:


> Can you elaborate how exactly a BREN assault rifle is a clone of SCAR? Thanks


Most certainly someone has done a better job than me in this video.

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## Path-Finder

MystryMan said:


> Can you elaborate how exactly a BREN assault rifle is a clone of SCAR? Thanks







this is a better comparison of the two rifles

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Most certainly someone has done a better job than me in this video.



I have checked with all the friends who went to IDEAS 2016. One even worked there all 4 days. No BREN 7.62 X 51 was shown. No Bren 7.62 X 51 till this date exists


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> I have checked with all the friends who went to IDEAS 2016. One even worked there all 4 days. No BREN 7.62 X 51 was shown. No Bren 7.62 X 51 till this date exists


zarvan did i say there was a x51 BREN there? no i did not? so stop quoting me that i did! secondly I said maybe it is in development phase! two completely different things, now if you have friends in CZ then tell me your friends told you about there being no x51 BREN in development!!


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## mingle

Path-Finder said:


> zarvan did i say there was a x51 BREN there? no i did not? so stop quoting me that i did! secondly I said maybe it is in development phase! two completely different things, now if you have friends in CZ then tell me your friends told you about there being no x51 BREN in development!!


Zarvan will only be happy for over FN Scar .


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## Zarvan

mingle said:


> Zarvan will only be happy for over FN Scar .


Yes I would be happy but not so sad if Berreta or Bren comes. The two rifles I hated the most are out of the competition so I am satisfied with these 3 and out of them I support SCAR the most. As for now no 7.62 x 51 version of Bren exists. So if Pakistan is looking to wait for it other wise if plan to to stick with 7.62 x 51 caliber than either Berreta or SCAR H would and should come.


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Yes I would be happy but not so sad if Berreta or Bren comes. The two rifles I hated the most are out of the competition so I am satisfied with these 3 and out of them I support SCAR the most. As for now no 7.62 x 51 version of Bren exists. So if Pakistan is looking to wait for it other wise if plan to to stick with 7.62 x 51 caliber than either Berreta or SCAR H would and should come.


zarvan, read this article and it will say CZ made 7.62x39 for indian military at request! multicaliber version of the BREN can be converted to fire either 5.56 mm or 7.62x39mm. so whats prevents CZ with coming up with x51 BREN at request? answer me?

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2013/10/03/cz807-upgraded-cz805a2-semi-auto-cz805s1/


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> zarvan, read this article and it will say CZ made 7.62x39 for indian military at request! multicaliber version of the BREN can be converted to fire either 5.56 mm or 7.62x39mm. so whats prevents CZ with coming up with x51 BREN at request? answer me?
> 
> http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2013/10/03/cz807-upgraded-cz805a2-semi-auto-cz805s1/


The only issue is coming up with new caliber could take a year. And I don't think Pakistan will wait for a year more first to caliber to come and than they test it for next 6 months. If Bren caliber x 51 doesn't exist till now than I have serious doubts that Pakistan will wait for a year or two more to caliber to come up and than test it again.


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> The only issue is coming up with new caliber could take a year. And I don't think Pakistan will wait for a year more first to caliber to come and than they test it for next 6 months. If Bren caliber x 51 doesn't exist till now than I have serious doubts that Pakistan will wait for a year or two more to caliber to come up and than test it again.


again that is* your *personal assessment and nothing more! how do you know that the Brass is not willing to wait? its all doubts and guess work, until something solid turns up let's all take a step back.


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## ahsanhaider

India Scared Again ! Lolllll MUST WATCH and SHARE. Neutral Assessment of Indo-Pak WAR. I request all Patriots to Share!


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## mingle

Zarvan said:


> Yes I would be happy but not so sad if Berreta or Bren comes. The two rifles I hated the most are out of the competition so I am satisfied with these 3 and out of them I support SCAR the most. As for now no 7.62 x 51 version of Bren exists. So if Pakistan is looking to wait for it other wise if plan to to stick with 7.62 x 51 caliber than either Berreta or SCAR H would and should come.


Zarvan Bro end of the day it would be political deal we have a lot going on with Italy including Avionics and Missles so if we add rifle with it we can get further sweet deals with Italy it always 2 way traffic .We may get 24 EF which Italian Airforce stored worth around 1.2 billion .But on other hand Belgiam has nothing to offer except few chocolates .


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## Naif al Hilali

War is Boring's take on the issue:

War Is Boring
We go to war so you don’t have to
35 mins ago





Former chief of the army staff of the Pakistani army Gen. Raheel Sharif examines a BREN 2 chambered in 7.62-by-39 millimeters in March 2016. Source
*Pakistan Is About to Buy a Half-Million New Rifles*
*A Czech weapon is the favorite*

by MATTHEW MOSS

Pakistan is getting a new infantry rifle.

In late November at the IDEAS-2016 Expo in Karachi, Pakistan’s state-run arsenal Pakistan Ordnance Factories signed a letter of understanding with the Czech small arms manufacturer Česká Zbrojovka.

This suggests that Pakistan and C.Z. are about to begin negotiations for Pakistan to adopt, and eventually begin license-production of, C.Z.’s 806 BREN 2 rifle.

The Pakistani army launched a search for a new infantry rifle in November 2015. Preliminary trials took place at the beginning of 2016 with five rifles — the FN SCAR, CZ-806 BREN 2, Zastava M21, Beretta ARX-200 and Kalashnikov AK-103.

The army appears to have tentatively selected the CZ-806 BREN 2.

It’s unclear exactly which caliber the new Pakistani BREN 2 might fire, but initial reports suggested a move toward NATO’s standard 5.56-by-45-millimeter round. However, C.Z. appears to have also offered the BREN 2 chambered in 7.62-by-39-millimeter.





CZ’s new 806 BREN 2, this version chambered in the standard 5.56-by-45-millimeter NATO round. Source
Pakistani troops currently carry locally-produced Heckler & Koch G3A3 battle rifles chambered in 7.62-by-51 millimeters and Kalashnikov-style Chinese Type 56s chambered in 7.62-by-39 millimeter.

If Pakistan wishes to continue the established ammunition duality, C.Z. would have to to introduce the much-mooted 7.62-by-51-millimeter battle rifle variant of the BREN.

C.Z. and the POF “declared that they will intensively negotiate a delivery of complete technology for the production of small arms,” state-owned Radio-Pakistan reported. “Mutual interest refers to gradual launching of production in Pakistan, ranging from light assembly to maximum localization of production.”

The licensing deal could be similar to the one POF struck with Heckler & Koch to indigenously produce the G3. C.Z. would provide the necessary machinery and technical guidance to first manufacture some parts and assemble parts kits and later transition into fully-local production. Pakistan will need to reequip as many as half a million troops over the coming decade.

The BREN 2 is versatile and modular enough to meet multiple operational requirements — and could simplify training if Pakistan retains both the 7.62-by-39 and 7.62-by-51 calibers. C.Z.’s rifle is also more cost-effective to manufacture than the FN SCAR or Beretta ARX-200 are — an important factor for the cash-strapped Pakistani military.

The CZ-806 BREN 2 represents a massive improvement in capability and modularity over the Pakistani army’s current Cold War-era small arms. The 806 has the benefit of being a refinement of the earlier 805 used by the Czech armed forces. In 2015 C.Z. made weight and production cost reductions by improving the 806’s manufacturing process.

Following operational feedback from the Czech army, C.Z. made a number of ergonomic improvements to the 806, adding a new folding stock and a non-reciprocating cocking handle and adjusting to the rifle’s ambidextrous controls.

Pakistan adopting the 806 would be a huge boon to C.Z. But for the deal to move forward, C.Z. will probably need to offer commercial incentives such as overseas sales to help Pakistan spread out the cost of production.


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## Zarvan

Naif al Hilali said:


> War is Boring's take on the issue:
> 
> War Is Boring
> We go to war so you don’t have to
> 35 mins ago
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Former chief of the army staff of the Pakistani army Gen. Raheel Sharif examines a BREN 2 chambered in 7.62-by-39 millimeters in March 2016. Source
> *Pakistan Is About to Buy a Half-Million New Rifles*
> *A Czech weapon is the favorite*
> 
> by MATTHEW MOSS
> 
> Pakistan is getting a new infantry rifle.
> 
> In late November at the IDEAS-2016 Expo in Karachi, Pakistan’s state-run arsenal Pakistan Ordnance Factories signed a letter of understanding with the Czech small arms manufacturer Česká Zbrojovka.
> 
> This suggests that Pakistan and C.Z. are about to begin negotiations for Pakistan to adopt, and eventually begin license-production of, C.Z.’s 806 BREN 2 rifle.
> 
> The Pakistani army launched a search for a new infantry rifle in November 2015. Preliminary trials took place at the beginning of 2016 with five rifles — the FN SCAR, CZ-806 BREN 2, Zastava M21, Beretta ARX-200 and Kalashnikov AK-103.
> 
> The army appears to have tentatively selected the CZ-806 BREN 2.
> 
> It’s unclear exactly which caliber the new Pakistani BREN 2 might fire, but initial reports suggested a move toward NATO’s standard 5.56-by-45-millimeter round. However, C.Z. appears to have also offered the BREN 2 chambered in 7.62-by-39-millimeter.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CZ’s new 806 BREN 2, this version chambered in the standard 5.56-by-45-millimeter NATO round. Source
> Pakistani troops currently carry locally-produced Heckler & Koch G3A3 battle rifles chambered in 7.62-by-51 millimeters and Kalashnikov-style Chinese Type 56s chambered in 7.62-by-39 millimeter.
> 
> If Pakistan wishes to continue the established ammunition duality, C.Z. would have to to introduce the much-mooted 7.62-by-51-millimeter battle rifle variant of the BREN.
> 
> C.Z. and the POF “declared that they will intensively negotiate a delivery of complete technology for the production of small arms,” state-owned Radio-Pakistan reported. “Mutual interest refers to gradual launching of production in Pakistan, ranging from light assembly to maximum localization of production.”
> 
> The licensing deal could be similar to the one POF struck with Heckler & Koch to indigenously produce the G3. C.Z. would provide the necessary machinery and technical guidance to first manufacture some parts and assemble parts kits and later transition into fully-local production. Pakistan will need to reequip as many as half a million troops over the coming decade.
> 
> The BREN 2 is versatile and modular enough to meet multiple operational requirements — and could simplify training if Pakistan retains both the 7.62-by-39 and 7.62-by-51 calibers. C.Z.’s rifle is also more cost-effective to manufacture than the FN SCAR or Beretta ARX-200 are — an important factor for the cash-strapped Pakistani military.
> 
> The CZ-806 BREN 2 represents a massive improvement in capability and modularity over the Pakistani army’s current Cold War-era small arms. The 806 has the benefit of being a refinement of the earlier 805 used by the Czech armed forces. In 2015 C.Z. made weight and production cost reductions by improving the 806’s manufacturing process.
> 
> Following operational feedback from the Czech army, C.Z. made a number of ergonomic improvements to the 806, adding a new folding stock and a non-reciprocating cocking handle and adjusting to the rifle’s ambidextrous controls.
> 
> Pakistan adopting the 806 would be a huge boon to C.Z. But for the deal to move forward, C.Z. will probably need to offer commercial incentives such as overseas sales to help Pakistan spread out the cost of production.



Well until 7.62 X 51 Bren comes I don't see the deal happening but if 7.62 X 51 has been tested than BREN could come but now hopefully we would also go for optics and other systems with rifles also POF needs to massively increase its production rate.

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Well until 7.62 X 51 Bren comes I don't see the deal happening but if 7.62 X 51 has been tested than BREN could come but now hopefully we would also go for optics and other systems with rifles also POF needs to massively increase its production rate.


well hazrat zarvan as it appears that CZ may pull a x51 rifle or even a dual calibre rifle that can switch from x39 to x51 from their pattari! . No FN SCAR but CZ SCAR much likely


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Path-Finder said:


> well hazrat zarvan as it appears that CZ may pull a x51 rifle or even a dual calibre rifle that can switch from x39 to x51 from their pattari! . No FN SCAR but CZ SCAR much likely


You mean "CZ SeCAR"

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## khanasifm

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/06/22/cz-bren-2-finally-makes-debut-international-market/
A good bet for the second customer is previously-mentioned Pakistan, to whom the 806 Bren 2 offers compatibility with *7.62x39mm* ammunition in a very modern platform. The 806 Bren 2 may also be set to compete in the French competition to select a new rifle to replace the aging FAMAS.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...cz-806-bren-2-improved-modular-assault-rifle/

The CZ 806 Bren 2 introduced a number of amendments requested by the soldiers using weapons. First of all _slimmed down_ carbine, mainly by removing excess material with aluminum castle chambers, reducing its mass by 0.5 kg. For comparison, the mass of subkarabinka CZ 805 Bren 1 A2 280 mm barrel is 3.39 / 4.10 kg (without iron sights and magazine / with a full magazine and sling), while his counterpart CZ 806 Bren 2 A2 of the same length barrel – only *2.76 / 2.99 kilograms.*

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/01/13/czech-army-buys-first-cz-806-bren-2-rifles/

The first contract, worth CZK417 million (*USD16.6 million)*, is for the delivery of *2,600 *CZ 806 Bren 2 rifles, *800* CZ 805 G1 underbarrel grenade launchers, *2,600 *Meopta ZD-Dot red dot sights, *1,600 *Meopta DV-Mag3 3x magnifiers, *1,450* Meopta NV-Mag3 night vision sights, *500 *DBAL-A2 laser pointer/illuminator, and *spare parts.

Long and Short barrels




*


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> well hazrat zarvan as it appears that CZ may pull a x51 rifle or even a dual calibre rifle that can switch from x39 to x51 from their pattari! . No FN SCAR but CZ SCAR much likely



Bren is not multi caliber. That is they separately came up with 7.62 X 39 and still now have revealed 7.62 x 51 either it doesn't exist until now or they are developing it. So until they come up with that and Pakistan tests that and it passes tests I am not ready to rule out Berreta ARX 200 and SCAR H.

@Horus @balixd

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Bren is not multi caliber. That is they separately came up with 7.62 X 39 and still now have revealed 7.62 x 51 either it doesn't exist until now or they are developing it. So until they come up with that and Pakistan tests that and it passes tests I am not ready to rule out Berreta ARX 200 and SCAR H.
> 
> @Horus @balixd


hazrat zarvan let's wait and see because the competition has not lived up to some peoples expectations, we should celebrate the x39 CZ SCAR and not be disheartened for still no decision on x51


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> hazrat zarvan let's wait and see because the competition has not lived up to some peoples expectations, we should celebrate the x39 CZ SCAR and not be disheartened for still no decision on x51


I am not even sure that the MOU signed was for 7.62 X 39 or any version of Bren. I am waiting for official announcement. If Bren had won even 7.62 X 39 caliber contract they would have announced it by now. But both sides are silent so any idea why ? Because winning our contract is biggest promotion for Bren but no news any idea why ??????????????

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> I am not even sure that the MOU signed was for 7.62 X 39 or any version of Bren. I am waiting for official announcement. If Bren had won even 7.62 X 39 caliber contract they would have announced it by now. But both sides are silent so any idea why ? Because winning our contract is biggest promotion for Bren but no news any idea why ??????????????









see the FN rep at the back and former COAS inspecting BREN, there maybe a hidden message in there


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> see the FN rep at the back and former COAS inspecting BREN, there maybe a hidden message in there


If MOU has been signed for producing Bren Assault Rifles than why no announcement. PM also checked various other weapons you want to tell me we are going for all of them. Stop joking around this no announcement for any side is confusing

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> If MOU has been signed for producing Bren Assault Rifles than why no announcement. PM also checked various other weapons you want to tell me we are going for all of them. Stop joking around this no announcement for any side is confusing


zarvan i cannot understand even after a year, why is this life and death for you? i laugh it off but you suffer from self inflicting jolts!

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> zarvan i cannot understand even after a year, why is this life and death for you? i laugh it off but you suffer from self inflicting jolts!


I don't know but I am fed up of seeing Type 56 and G3 and that too mostly without optics with our soldiers. You have given them latest uniforms and latests vests and pads now helmets and Assault Rifle is needed. I support SCAR most but would be happy if Bren or Beretta come the two rifles I hated are out of the competition. They were AK-103 and that Serbian Gun

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> I don't know but I am fed up of seeing Type 56 and G3 and that too mostly without optics with our soldiers. You have given them latest uniforms and latests vests and pads now helmets and Assault Rifle is needed. I support SCAR most but would be happy if Bren or Beretta come the two rifles I hated are out of the competition. They were AK-103 and that Serbian Gun


yea but making this life and death matter is fanatically extreme!


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## Thorough Pro

30 days at most. they are not redesigning the whole platform, just the barrel, mag well, and bolt assembly



Zarvan said:


> *The only issue is coming up with new caliber could take a year*. And I don't think Pakistan will wait for a year more first to caliber to come and than they test it for next 6 months. If Bren caliber x 51 doesn't exist till now than I have serious doubts that Pakistan will wait for a year or two more to caliber to come up and than test it again.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

BREN or no BREN, I hope the Institute of Optronics or Shibli Electronics sign an agreement with Meopta for reflective sights (made in Pakistan), would be a much welcome addition:

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## TaimiKhan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> BREN or no BREN, I hope the Institute of Optronics or Shibli Electronics sign an agreement with Meopta for reflective sights (made in Pakistan), would be a much welcome addition:



For a 5.56, the recoil seems to be big. Strange.

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## The Eagle

TaimiKhan said:


> For a 5.56, the recoil seems to be big. Strange.



Good catch Sir,,,

CZ BREN 2 is designed as multi caliber purpose rifle that rifle can be converted from 5.56 to 7.62 by changing only barrel, cocking handle and magazine holder/attaching-detaching part..

An official talking to media....

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## Flash_Ninja

Zarvan said:


> Well until 7.62 X 51 Bren comes I don't see the deal happening but if 7.62 X 51 has been tested than BREN could come but now hopefully we would also go for optics and other systems with rifles also POF needs to massively increase its production rate.




Why not 7.62*39? The type-56's already widely used in service use this ammo type too.


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## Zarvan

Kash_Ninja said:


> Why not 7.62*39? The type-56's already widely used in service use this ammo type too.


Pakistan loves 7.62 X 51. We shifted to Type 56 because G3 had issues in Close Combat


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Pakistan loves 7.62 X 51. We shifted to Type 56 because G3 had issues in Close Combat


I am sure because it was due to the combat and tactics that called for a intermediate cartridge for WOT and x39 filled that void perfectly. x51 was also used but the x39 was the right calibre for the job in this COIN conflict. In War x51 with x39 will be used with focus more on x51. rifle was what was available on the spot with no time for trials. now trials have been done.


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## khanasifm

the specs from video if true are great single weapons system to support both 5.56 and 7.62 x XX not sure if 39 or 51 but i guess both

folding stock or can be removed, baraell length options so this can replace both G3 and type 56 or even M16s/M14 with some units

Silencer option as well, a video on Web claims cz was influenced by SCAR and it's internal mechanism and external look and feel or form are same as SCAR but it's 70-80% of the cost of SCAR


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## LegitimateIdiot

What do you guys prefer the Berretta or the cz bren and why


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## saumyasupratik

The rifle in the hands of this gentlemen is the 5.56mm NATO variant designated CZ806, the rifle in the poster is a 7.62x39mm variant and is designated CZ807. I thought 806 would be a multicalibre rifle with both 5.56 NATO and 7.62x39mm kits available and that 807 was an old designation for the 7.62x39mm variant of the older 805 BREN 1. 

PAs been offered the 807 variant only then for trials according to the photos released by ISPR in March of this year.

Had CZUB reps there mentioned anything calibre conversion kit? Does anyone have photos of the receiver markings of the rifles found in the stalls? Anyone has full photo of the CZUB poster?


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## Path-Finder

LegitimateIdiot said:


> What do you guys prefer the Berretta or the cz bren and why


which rifle do you prefer?



saumyasupratik said:


> The rifle in the hands of this gentlemen is the 5.56mm NATO variant designated CZ806, the rifle in the poster is a 7.62x39mm variant and is designated CZ807. I thought 806 would be a multicalibre rifle with both 5.56 NATO and 7.62x39mm kits available and that 807 was an old designation for the 7.62x39mm variant of the older 805 BREN 1.
> 
> PAs been offered the 807 variant only then for trials according to the photos released by ISPR in March of this year.
> 
> Had CZUB reps there mentioned anything calibre conversion kit? Does anyone have photos of the receiver markings of the rifles found in the stalls? Anyone has full photo of the CZUB poster?


the picture when expanded to full size, pay close attention to the magwell. now i can only assume by looking this pic that the magwell can be interchanged to accept different magazines! @Suff Shikan is in the photo he might know better? as for 807 there is not much info on the web at present!

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## Path-Finder

LegitimateIdiot said:


> actually what do you prefer the bren or the beretta , and why
> i prefer the cz bren


have you been through this entire thread? because I am open to any rifle being selected and then we have Hazrat @Zarvan who is betting life and limb on FN SCAR. 

I like BREN if it calibre can be switched between 556 to x39 then it's great for Special Forces, Military & Law Enforcement. Then you just need a x51 rifle and that is what we are waiting for! I was pro SCAR then I began to loath the rifle and settled for ARX200.


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## LegitimateIdiot

Path-Finder said:


> have you been through this entire thread? because I am open to any rifle being selected and then we have Hazrat @Zarvan who is betting life and limb on FN SCAR.
> 
> I like BREN if it calibre can be switched between 556 to x39 then it's great for Special Forces, Military & Law Enforcement. Then you just need a x51 rifle and that is what we are waiting for! I was pro SCAR then I began to loath the rifle and settled for ARX200.


Yeah i would defininetly love to go through this entire thread of 182 pages , sounds fun right



i thought soo

bren or be


Zarvan said:


> I don't know but I am fed up of seeing Type 56 and G3 and that too mostly without optics with our soldiers. You have given them latest uniforms and latests vests and pads now helmets and Assault Rifle is needed. I support SCAR most but would be happy if Bren or Beretta come the two rifles I hated are out of the competition. They were AK-103 and that Serbian Gun


bren or beretta


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## Path-Finder

LegitimateIdiot said:


> Yeah i would defininetly love to go through this entire thread of 182 pages , sounds fun right
> 
> 
> 
> i thought soo
> 
> bren or be
> 
> bren or beretta


enjoy your journey from page 1 to present  its a wild ride


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## LegitimateIdiot

Rip Junaid Jamshed


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## ali_raza

LegitimateIdiot said:


> Rip Junaid Jamshed


off topic


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## Suff Shikan

Path-Finder said:


> which rifle do you prefer?
> 
> 
> the picture when expanded to full size, pay close attention to the magwell. now i can only assume by looking this pic that the magwell can be interchanged to accept different magazines! @Suff Shikan is in the photo he might know better? as for 807 there is not much info on the web at present!



@Zarvan @Path-Finder This might help
http://www.czub.cz/en/blog/2016/09/16/cz-807-torture-test/
Look at figure C and its explanation.









From same source

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## TheDarkKnight

Suff Shikan said:


> @Zarvan @Path-Finder This might help
> 
> Look at figure C and its explanation.
> View attachment 358583
> 
> View attachment 358584
> 
> 
> From same source
> View attachment 358586



807 is natural in the 7.62 caliber; it is interesting to note that the 7.62 version weighs less (3.31 kg) than the 5.56 converted version (3.41 kg). The type 56 which this may replace in PA is in the 3.7 to 4 kg range. So a good 1lb lighter than type56.

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## Path-Finder

Suff Shikan said:


> @Zarvan @Path-Finder This might help
> http://www.czub.cz/en/blog/2016/09/16/cz-807-torture-test/
> Look at figure C and its explanation.
> View attachment 358583
> 
> View attachment 358584
> 
> 
> From same source
> View attachment 358586


zabardast

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## Gryphon

CZ 807 BREN has emerged as the finalist in Pakistan Army Service rifle trials to replace 7.62×39mm Chinese Type 56 rifles, ARMÁDNÍ NOVINY reported quoting Director of Military weapons in České zbrojovce, Martin Šanda. Special version CZ 807 BREN (Soviet 7.62×39mm) was offered to the Pakistan Army.
_
"Czech arms industry has successfully participated in the tender for the rearmament of the Pakistani army with it's CZ 807. Of the original eight candidates which met the extremely rigorous demands of the Pakistani army, there were only three finalists, including the CZ 807. For an idea of the scope of testing, I can say that the tests were conducted throughout 2016, in all weather conditions from the Himalayan glaciers, where the temperature dropped below -40° C up to the jungle or desert, where they climbed to the contrary, we recorded + 54° C, "_ commented Martin Šanda, on the Pakistani tender.

_"Apart from these tests conducted directly by users of the combat units and weapons, they were tested in laboratory "under applicable methodologies". CZ 807 was evaluated as the best in the context of user tests, for example, but also as the most accurate direct comparison of standardized absolute world elite. Additionally, the testing was attended throughout by CZ representatives who collected valuable data for further development of service weapons. Some of them spent most of the year in Pakistan in difficult conditions," _ Šanda added.

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## Zarvan

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> CZ 807 BREN has emerged as the finalist in Pakistan Army Service rifle trials to replace 7.62×39mm Chinese Type 56 rifles, ARMÁDNÍ NOVINY reported quoting Director of Military weapons in České zbrojovce, Martin Šanda. Special version CZ 807 BREN (Soviet 7.62×39mm) was offered to the Pakistan Army.
> _
> "Czech arms industry has successfully participated in the tender for the rearmament of the Pakistani army with it's CZ 807. Of the original eight candidates which met the extremely rigorous demands of the Pakistani army, there were only three finalists, including the CZ 807. For an idea of the scope of testing, I can say that the tests were conducted throughout 2016, in all weather conditions from the Himalayan glaciers, where the temperature dropped below -40° C up to the jungle or desert, where they climbed to the contrary, we recorded + 54° C, "_ commented Martin Šanda, on the Pakistani tender.
> 
> _"Apart from these tests conducted directly by users of the combat units and weapons, they were tested in laboratory "under applicable methodologies". CZ 807 was evaluated as the best in the context of user tests, for example, but also as the most accurate direct comparison of standardized absolute world elite. Additionally, the testing was attended throughout by CZ representatives who collected valuable data for further development of service weapons. Some of them spent most of the year in Pakistan in difficult conditions," _ Šanda added.


Now waiting for G3 replacement winner

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## TheNoob

Damn.
Finally something sexy! 

Wonder how intimidating our soldiers will look with this in hand along with full equipment!

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## 50cent

This article is from magizne zarvan can explain better

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## Sage

Zarvan said:


> Now waiting for G3 replacement winner


My gut tells me that it's going to be SCAR !


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## Muhammad Omar

Any Results about Rifle that's gonna replace G3

Bren 807 

Beauty

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## Kurlang

@Zarvan see what I told you..... abb dekhnay yeh hai k zarvan ki scar select hoti hai ya nahin ...


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## Maea

It looks nice

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## Banglar Bir

BROTHERS YOU NEED TO PURCHASE THERMAL IMAGING RIFLES FOR THE SPECIAL FORCES UNITS DEPLOYED IN HIGH ALTITUDE SNOW CAPPED MOUNTAINS REGIONS.

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## Ghazwa e Hind

ARX-200 is going to replace G3 as far as the matter of ground realities is concerned. It is a natural replacement. Beretta will handover a legacy of quality to Pakistan which is necessary to replace the royal G3 of Pakistan Army. POF already signed an MoU with Beretta for upgrading of manufacturing facilities.

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## Muhammad Omar

Ghazwa e Hind said:


> ARX-200 is going to replace G3 as far as the matter of ground realities is concerned. It is a natural replacement. Beretta will handover a legacy of quality to Pakistan which is necessary to replace the royal G3 of Pakistan Army. POF already signed an MoU with Beretta for upgrading of manufacturing facilities.



Is it Official??



maroofz2000 said:


> BROTHERS YOU NEED TO PURCHASE THERMAL IMAGING RIFLES FOR THE SPECIAL FORCES UNITS DEPLOYED IN HIGH ALTITUDE SNOW CAPPED MOUNTAINS REGIONS.



We already have that

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## Ghazwa e Hind

Muhammad Omar said:


> Is it Official??


no! don't consider it official please. I am a journalist with defense as my beat. Just connecting the strings and it is one of my analysis. I can proudly say that my analysis prove to be right oftenly. ARX-200 is a strong contender unlike SCAR which many members on this forum think. ARX-200 is getting serious attention and passed the tough standards of Pakistan Army.

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## Suff Shikan

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> CZ 807 BREN has emerged as the finalist in Pakistan Army Service rifle trials to replace 7.62×39mm Chinese Type 56 rifles, ARMÁDNÍ NOVINY reported quoting Director of Military weapons in České zbrojovce, Martin Šanda. Special version CZ 807 BREN (Soviet 7.62×39mm) was offered to the Pakistan Army.
> _
> "Czech arms industry has successfully participated in the tender for the rearmament of the Pakistani army with it's CZ 807. Of the original eight candidates which met the extremely rigorous demands of the Pakistani army, there were only three finalists, including the CZ 807. For an idea of the scope of testing, I can say that the tests were conducted throughout 2016, in all weather conditions from the Himalayan glaciers, where the temperature dropped below -40° C up to the jungle or desert, where they climbed to the contrary, we recorded + 54° C, "_ commented Martin Šanda, on the Pakistani tender.
> 
> _"Apart from these tests conducted directly by users of the combat units and weapons, they were tested in laboratory "under applicable methodologies". CZ 807 was evaluated as the best in the context of user tests, for example, but also as the most accurate direct comparison of standardized absolute world elite. Additionally, the testing was attended throughout by CZ representatives who collected valuable data for further development of service weapons. Some of them spent most of the year in Pakistan in difficult conditions," _ Šanda added.



Gr8, I really love this rifle.

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## shah1398

maroofz2000 said:


> BROTHERS YOU NEED TO PURCHASE THERMAL IMAGING RIFLES FOR THE SPECIAL FORCES UNITS DEPLOYED IN HIGH ALTITUDE SNOW CAPPED MOUNTAINS REGIONS.



Actually private companies like Shibli Electronics are already producing thermal sights for rifles.

http://shibli.com/what-we-do/optronics/

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## Kompromat

Excellent choice, although i would have waited for the SCAR X39 model to arrive. If we pick SCAR to replace G-3s then it would have made sense to have just one single production line for all rifles and training. Now we would have to train soldiers on two different rifles. By all means CZ-807 is an excellent platform to replace the good'ol Type-56.

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## -BAJWA-

maroofz2000 said:


> BROTHERS YOU NEED TO PURCHASE THERMAL IMAGING RIFLES FOR THE SPECIAL FORCES UNITS DEPLOYED IN HIGH ALTITUDE SNOW CAPPED MOUNTAINS REGIONS.



TI is not a big deal, it can be fitted later.


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## Path-Finder

Excellent one of my favorites which was supposedly dropped according to the "so called" insiders proved to be wrong. Now lets see x51 tender winner announced *come on ARX200* Hazrat @Zarvan


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## TheNoob

maroofz2000 said:


> BROTHERS YOU NEED TO PURCHASE THERMAL IMAGING RIFLES FOR THE SPECIAL FORCES UNITS DEPLOYED IN HIGH ALTITUDE SNOW CAPPED MOUNTAINS REGIONS.



we got thermal for specific units for specific purposes.
Not in huge numbers though, unfortunately, nor can we afford to equip majority of the units with it.


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## Imran Khan

will never believe until i see them in solders hands

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## Path-Finder

TheNoob said:


> we got thermal for specific units for specific purposes.
> Not in huge numbers though, unfortunately, nor can we afford to equip majority of the units with it.


Not true Night vision and Thermal is available at all necessary units & platoon level depending on the operational requirements!

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## TheNoob

Path-Finder said:


> Not true Night vision and Thermal is available at all necessary units & platoon level depending on the operational requirements!



wow, times have changed in just 3 years.....

but i doubt we have the ones with good imaging quality, such as those on helicopters and planes used from miles away.


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## monitor

Zarvan said:


> Now waiting for G3 replacement winner



For G3 FN SCAR can be possibly?


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## YeBeWarned

Imran Khan said:


> will never believe until i see them in solders hands



Imran bhai Sabr karo sabr karoo sabr bari cheez hai .. aaj raat ko Chand niklay ga kal subha Eid hai


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## Path-Finder

TheNoob said:


> wow, times have changed in just 3 years.....
> 
> but i doubt we have the ones with good imaging quality, such as those on helicopters and planes used from miles away.


no they are excellent quality of GEN 3+/XD4 NV like AN/PVS7 and NVM14 made by Institute of optronics to speak a few and thermal imagining like Shibli made in house in Pakistan thus no need to import at all.

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## Imran Khan

Starlord said:


> Imran bhai Sabr karo sabr karoo sabr bari cheez hai .. aaj raat ko Chand niklay ga kal subha Eid hai


i think these G3 must be replaced before my first birthday

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## Thunder.Storm

Zarvan said:


> Now waiting for G3 replacement winner


i can't understand the difference b/w CZ 806 and CZ 807. Can u help me to understand?


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## YeBeWarned

Imran Khan said:


> i think these G3 must be replaced before my first birthday



G3 is so heavy , in Ideas i have picked up both G-3 and SCAR-H .. G-3 weights like i am carrying 2 guns ..i wonder with the force of firing it how our Soldiers have to keep their aim steady..


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## Cornered Tiger

@AZADPAKISTAN2009, @Horus So, Pakistan Army is going to deploy CZ-807 as Assault Riffle i.e. on Borders? Seems a good choice for the role. What other Assault Rifles we have in our inventory?


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## Imran Khan

Starlord said:


> G3 is so heavy , in Ideas i have picked up both G-3 and SCAR-H .. G-3 weights like i am carrying 2 guns ..i wonder with the force of firing it how our Soldiers have to keep their aim steady..


its was good in 70-80-90 but there is no place of g-3 in modern battle

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## YeBeWarned

Imran Khan said:


> its was good in 70-80-90 but there is no place of g-3 in modern battle



Some European Countries are Still using G-3 but upgraded Version in their Special Forces .. Germany if i am not Wrong i wonder if we can keep some G-3's by upgrading them ?


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## Path-Finder

Starlord said:


> Some European Countries are Still using G-3 but upgraded Version in their Special Forces .. Germany if i am not Wrong i wonder if we can keep some G-3's by upgrading them ?


G3 has been in service as CETME rifle from the 1950's. Its a bygone product and the nations using them are only using them as a stop-gap rifle until new weapon system arrives like HK417! or in training but it will be displayed in museums which is where it belongs now.

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## YeBeWarned

Path-Finder said:


> G3 has been in service as CETME rifle from the 1950's. Its a bygone product and the nations using them are only using them as a stop-gap rifle until new weapon system arrives like HK417! or in training but it will be displayed in museums which is where it belongs now.



It will be replaced post 2025 in PA .. its not easy to replace the Primary weapon for 0.65 million troops .


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## muhammadali233

Imran Khan said:


> will never believe until i see them in solders hands

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## Imran Khan

muhammadali233 said:


>


 rejected it was testing phase pic

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## lastofthepatriots

I will join TTP If Scar is not given to @Zarvan bhai.

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## DJ_Viper

Muhammad Omar said:


> Any Results about Rifle that's gonna replace G3
> 
> Bren 807
> 
> Beauty




How heavy is this? Do you know? This looks pretty heavy to me, may be its all composites so it would be lighter when you hold it. But AR type rifles are much less of a weight to keep in your hands. A soldier needs to be agile and be holding lighter weapons for quick reaction.


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## Zarvan

Ghazwa e Hind said:


> ARX-200 is going to replace G3 as far as the matter of ground realities is concerned. It is a natural replacement. Beretta will handover a legacy of quality to Pakistan which is necessary to replace the royal G3 of Pakistan Army. POF already signed an MoU with Beretta for upgrading of manufacturing facilities.


SCAR was best in performance in 7.62 X 51 and SCAR is giving quite good offers and SCAR is likely the winner for G3 replacement

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## Sardar Anees Abbasi

Look nice


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Excellent one of my favorites which was supposedly dropped according to the "so called" insiders proved to be wrong. Now lets see x51 tender winner announced *come on ARX200* Hazrat @Zarvan


I am also waiting for 7.62 X 51 winner. I am hoping for SCAR and as some members are suggesting that BREN and SCAR are similar in features than SCAR will be mostly likely going to win 7.62 X 51 so hope for the best.


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## muhammadali233

Imran Khan said:


> rejected it was testing phase pic


it is your word against yours.

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## Imran Khan

muhammadali233 said:


> it is your word against yours.
> View attachment 358957


i am sorry it was my mistake lets say when i see in 100 solders hands

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## CriticalThought

NOTE: MAJOR speculation ahead. If you know better, please correct me ASAP.

The induction of the CZ BREN, indicates a paradigm shift in the Army's grassroots level battle strategy. With a high powered rifle such as G3 in hand, there is a natural psychological inclination for the soldier to engage the enemy from larger distances. Combined with the difficulty to control and smaller magazine size, this can result in a drastically reduced kill ratio.

With the CZ, the army's strategy has evolved to closing the gap with the enemy. With an accurate, rugged rifle in hand wielding the stopping power of 7.62×39mm, combined with state of the art optics for pinpoint accuracy, the soldier transforms into a mean killing machine.

Back circa 2003/4, I remember reading a review somewhere by an American guy of the Pak Army's weaponry. The review on the G3 was extremely critical. The reviewer pointed out the same points I have noted above: basically, no human user can effectively engage a target at 500m+ with plain iron sights. This essentially makes the G3 an overpowered ammo cruncher. The reviewer further said that modern armies have already transitioned to providing optical sights to every soldier, and such provision is considered stock standard these days.

This modernization program has been long overdue. Kudos to our forward thinking leadership who have acted with decisiveness on the issue. Hopefully, this will have a follow on effect in raising the morale of our soldiers.

May Allah guide our Army according to the best outcomes for Islam and Muslims. Aaameen.

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## Muhammad Omar

DJ_Viper said:


> How heavy is this? Do you know? This looks pretty heavy to me, may be its all composites so it would be lighter when you hold it. But AR type rifles are much less of a weight to keep in your hands. A soldier needs to be agile and be holding lighter weapons for quick reaction.



3.6 KG


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## Talwar e Pakistan

Honestly, Pakistani modified Type-56 were very effective, reliable and not costly - I don't see why we have to replace them.

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## DJ_Viper

Muhammad Omar said:


> 3.6 KG



Ok, good. So it has more composited weighing about 8 to 9 pounds with bullets, etc. That's not bad.


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## CriticalThought

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> Honestly, Pakistani modified Type-56 were very effective, reliable and not costly - I don't see why we have to replace them.



Looking at some videos about the CZ 806 on youtube:

1. The gun is extremely modular. Comes with 3 different barrel lengths.
2. Has a position to attach a silencer.
3. Accuracy is very good.
4. Ambidextrous.
5. They are boasting 'aircraft grade hardened aluminium'. Not sure what effect it has, but on of the aims I have read in articles is to acquire new manufacturing processes and technologies.

In general, the way I see it, more than the gun itself, POF is looking to acquire the manufacturing know how. Hopefully, this will translate to better versions of locally designed products such the POF LSR.


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## Gryphon

CriticalThought said:


> The induction of the CZ BREN, indicates a paradigm shift in the Army's grassroots level battle strategy. With a high powered rifle such as G3 in hand, there is a natural psychological inclination for the soldier to engage the enemy from larger distances. Combined with the difficulty to control and smaller magazine size, this can result in a drastically reduced kill ratio.
> 
> With the CZ, the army's strategy has evolved to closing the gap with the enemy. With an accurate, rugged rifle in hand wielding the stopping power of 7.62×39mm, combined with state of the art optics for pinpoint accuracy, the soldier transforms into a mean killing machine.
> 
> Back circa 2003/4, I remember reading a review somewhere by an American guy of the Pak Army's weaponry. The review on the G3 was extremely critical. The reviewer pointed out the same points I have noted above: basically, no human user can effectively engage a target at 500m+ with plain iron sights. This essentially makes the G3 an overpowered ammo cruncher. The reviewer further said that modern armies have already transitioned to providing optical sights to every soldier, and such provision is considered stock standard these days.
> 
> This modernization program has been long overdue. Kudos to our forward thinking leadership who have acted with decisiveness on the issue. Hopefully, this will have a follow on effect in raising the morale of our soldiers.



The biggest advantage of 7.62x51mm is that it can penetrate BP jackets. Otherwise, a magazine with 20 rounds only is a -ve.



DJ_Viper said:


> Ok, good. So it has more composited weighing about 8 to 9 pounds with bullets, etc. That's not bad.










Horus said:


> If we pick SCAR to replace G-3s then it would have made sense to have just one single production line for all rifles and training. Now we would have to train soldiers on two different rifles.



As the CZ official has said there are 3 finalists (out of total 8), another rifle (SCAR or Beretta) is unavoidable.

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## CriticalThought

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> The biggest advantage of 7.62x51mm is that it can penetrate BP jackets. Otherwise, a magazine with 20 rounds only is a -ve.



Not denying the efficacy of 51mm, but it really is about the distance. You don't want to be in the firing line of x39 at less than 200m. Some references:

--------------------------------------
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62×39mm


> After 1989, the regular (PS) Russian bullets started to be manufactured with a steel core with a higher carbon concentration and subjected to heat treatment. This change improved their penetration by 1.5–2 times. It is not possible to externally distinguish these bullets from the earlier, softer PS ones except by year of fabrication. At about the same time, tool steel was adopted for a normal velocity 7.62×39 bullet. Called BP, this bullet was developed in the 1980s and 1990s. It was officially adopted for Russian service in 2002 under the service name "7.62 BP", and with the GRAU designation 7N23. The BP bullet is claimed to achieve over three times the penetration of the PS bullet; it can defeat the Russian bullet-proof vest with designation 6B5 at distances below 250 meters. The BP cartridge has the tip of its bullet painted black. The BP bullet itself is slightly longer (27.4 mm) compared to the PS bullet, but has the same mass of 7.9 grams.



--------------------------------------





--------------------------------------

Where I wouldn't want to use x39 is mountain cliff ambushes involving a small number of troops armed only with rifles and rocket launchers. In other words, SF operations.


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> I am also waiting for 7.62 X 51 winner. I am hoping for SCAR and as some members are suggesting that BREN and SCAR are similar in features than SCAR will be mostly likely going to win 7.62 X 51 so hope for the best.


 I am hoping for ARX200 as it is shortlisted and sorry Hazrat @Zarvan as the so called insiders claiming to have info on the trials turned out to be garbage when they said BREN was out of the competition! so SCAR being the best will need more than hearsay or Chinese whispers. If SCAR is the best in x51 then why is ARX200 in the finals as well? What exact stats gives SCAR the edge over ARX200??



lastofthepatriots said:


> I will join TTP If Scar is not given to @Zarvan bhai.


 yaar Hazrat @Zarvan is a derwaish and mufakir of defence, his predictions may have not been accurate but still its not that serious is it?


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## lastofthepatriots

Path-Finder said:


> I am hoping for ARX200 as it is shortlisted and sorry Hazrat @Zarvan as the so called insiders claiming to have info on the trials turned out to be garbage when they said BREN was out of the competition! so SCAR being the best will need more than hearsay or Chinese whispers. If SCAR is the best in x51 then why is ARX200 in the finals as well? What exact stats gives SCAR the edge over ARX200??
> 
> yaar Hazrat @Zarvan is a derwaish and mufakir of defence, his predictions may have not been accurate but still its not that serious is it?



If Scar is not chosen, Pakistan Army must send at least one rifle to @Zarvan bhai. That is my only condition.

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## Path-Finder

lastofthepatriots said:


> If Scar is not chosen, Pakistan Army must send at least one rifle to @Zarvan bhai. That is my only condition.


what about CZ SCAR? (BREN is based on SCAR!)



Talwar e Pakistan said:


> Honestly, Pakistani modified Type-56 were very effective, reliable and not costly - I don't see why we have to replace them.


you are right I mean should have kept the Lee Enfield SMLE as well why upgrade it has the mad minute feature!

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## lastofthepatriots

Path-Finder said:


> what about CZ SCAR? (BREN is based on SCAR!)
> 
> 
> you are right I mean should have kept the Lee Enfield SMLE as well why upgrade it has the mad minute feature!



If @Zarvan bhai doesn't get what he wants, we are doing a mother fucking dharna at GHQ.

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

CZ is a fine choice amongst small arms---one of the best---extremely functional.

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> what about CZ SCAR? (BREN is based on SCAR!)
> 
> 
> you are right I mean should have kept the Lee Enfield SMLE as well why upgrade it has the mad minute feature!


If BREN 7.62 x 51 doesn't existed than I am more than sure now that we won't wait for 7.62 X 51 BREN to come up with SCAR or Berreta would come up


----------



## The Eagle

A good multi caliber choice for Type 56 replacement. Now, ARX-200 and FN SCAR are at advantage to be selected any one of them that currently CZ has no 7.62x51 rifle to offer but who knows.


----------



## Ultimate Weapon

Its a good strategy of selecting two different rifles. Obviously there need to establish two different production systems. But think what will we get.

We will get experience of world's two top of the line guns + experience of G3. Dont you think this would be very much beneficial for our local industry as well as exports.

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> If BREN 7.62 x 51 doesn't existed than I am more than sure now that we won't wait for 7.62 X 51 BREN to come up with SCAR or Berreta would come up


you quoted the wrong post!


----------



## Inception-06

Imran Khan said:


> will never believe until i see them in solders hands



Exactly, I thought the same !


----------



## unleashed

Thermal sights by Shibli Electronics












@shah1398

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## UkroTurk

CZ Bren is a great platform. But I don't expect BREN except .223 caliber would work properly.
Bren is created for 5.56mm ammo.
How would mechanism work ?
AFaik Sig 556 7.62x39 doesn't work properly.














http://playithub.net/watch/80kWBt_x574/sig-sauer-sig556xi-adaptable-rifle.html


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## denel

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> CZ 807 BREN has emerged as the finalist in Pakistan Army Service rifle trials to replace 7.62×39mm Chinese Type 56 rifles, ARMÁDNÍ NOVINY reported quoting Director of Military weapons in České zbrojovce, Martin Šanda. Special version CZ 807 BREN (Soviet 7.62×39mm) was offered to the Pakistan Army.
> _
> "Czech arms industry has successfully participated in the tender for the rearmament of the Pakistani army with it's CZ 807. Of the original eight candidates which met the extremely rigorous demands of the Pakistani army, there were only three finalists, including the CZ 807. For an idea of the scope of testing, I can say that the tests were conducted throughout 2016, in all weather conditions from the Himalayan glaciers, where the temperature dropped below -40° C up to the jungle or desert, where they climbed to the contrary, we recorded + 54° C, "_ commented Martin Šanda, on the Pakistani tender.
> 
> _"Apart from these tests conducted directly by users of the combat units and weapons, they were tested in laboratory "under applicable methodologies". CZ 807 was evaluated as the best in the context of user tests, for example, but also as the most accurate direct comparison of standardized absolute world elite. Additionally, the testing was attended throughout by CZ representatives who collected valuable data for further development of service weapons. Some of them spent most of the year in Pakistan in difficult conditions," _ Šanda added.



I am not surprised at all with this selection; I had said this was a most likely winner; I have CZ for past 20 yrs plus. They are very well regarded in their small arms capabilities even in WW II, Germans used their industries. Rugged and much more value for money. Plus the requirement for multi-caliber made this a no brainer.

Kudos, this is the right one.

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## Super Falcon

Scar will win it's not final yet few tests are still left


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## khanasifm

Not sure but 7.62x39 range is 350 vs 5.56 450??


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## denel

khanasifm said:


> Not sure but 7.62x39 range is 350 vs 5.56 450??


friend, stopping power of x39 is higher. After 100m, 223 loses a lot of kt; there are many charts around to show you this.


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## CriticalThought

khanasifm said:


> Not sure but 7.62x39 range is 350 vs 5.56 450??



Two major factors come into play to determine effective range: weight/type of ammo, and barrel length. The barrel length in the infographic above converts to approx. 16 inches!!! So the barrel length could hardly get any longer. That leaves the type of ammo as the major factor. There are two 'related factors' which determine max range: sights used and the shooter. Read more here:

https://defence.pk/threads/pakistan...million-new-rifles.465173/page-3#post-8986900

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## DESERT FIGHTER

maroofz2000 said:


> BROTHERS YOU NEED TO PURCHASE THERMAL IMAGING RIFLES FOR THE SPECIAL FORCES UNITS DEPLOYED IN HIGH ALTITUDE SNOW CAPPED MOUNTAINS REGIONS.




Indigenous solutions:

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## Skyliner

One of the best rifle. Design, performance, built all is perfect.What i like the most in it is next to none recoil and so smooth barrel.
I wish we select FN Scar for G3 replacement.













Badas*

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## khanasifm

Per Pundits CZ is influenced by SCAR, internal mechanism and external finish plus 70-80% of the price


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## tigerrock ali

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> CZ 807 BREN has emerged as the finalist in Pakistan Army Service rifle trials to replace 7.62×39mm Chinese Type 56 rifles, ARMÁDNÍ NOVINY reported quoting Director of Military weapons in České zbrojovce, Martin Šanda. Special version CZ 807 BREN (Soviet 7.62×39mm) was offered to the Pakistan Army.
> _
> "Czech arms industry has successfully participated in the tender for the rearmament of the Pakistani army with it's CZ 807. Of the original eight candidates which met the extremely rigorous demands of the Pakistani army, there were only three finalists, including the CZ 807. For an idea of the scope of testing, I can say that the tests were conducted throughout 2016, in all weather conditions from the Himalayan glaciers, where the temperature dropped below -40° C up to the jungle or desert, where they climbed to the contrary, we recorded + 54° C, "_ commented Martin Šanda, on the Pakistani tender.
> 
> _"Apart from these tests conducted directly by users of the combat units and weapons, they were tested in laboratory "under applicable methodologies". CZ 807 was evaluated as the best in the context of user tests, for example, but also as the most accurate direct comparison of standardized absolute world elite. Additionally, the testing was attended throughout by CZ representatives who collected valuable data for further development of service weapons. Some of them spent most of the year in Pakistan in difficult conditions," _ Šanda added.


Do we have any news about the replacement for the HK G-3? I heard that FN and Beretta were the final contenders.



Horus said:


> Excellent choice, although i would have waited for the SCAR X39 model to arrive. If we pick SCAR to replace G-3s then it would have made sense to have just one single production line for all rifles and training. Now we would have to train soldiers on two different rifles. By all means CZ-807 is an excellent platform to replace the good'ol Type-56.


These two (BREN and SCAR) are extremely similar regarding operation and build. I think that training on these two platforms would also be almost identical.



khanasifm said:


> Per Pundits CZ is influenced by SCAR, internal mechanism and external finish


It's actually true. These two platforms are extremely similar. Build, operation and looks included.



maroofz2000 said:


> BROTHERS YOU NEED TO PURCHASE THERMAL IMAGING RIFLES FOR THE SPECIAL FORCES UNITS DEPLOYED IN HIGH ALTITUDE SNOW CAPPED MOUNTAINS REGIONS.


What exactly are these "THERMAL IMAGING RIFLES " you are mentioning? Rifles don't image, it's the work for the optics.
And I think we are already using these optics in our Spec Ops units.



DJ_Viper said:


> How heavy is this? Do you know? This looks pretty heavy to me, may be its all composites so it would be lighter when you hold it. But AR type rifles are much less of a weight to keep in your hands. A soldier needs to be agile and be holding lighter weapons for quick reaction.


I think Pak army soldiers, who have been carrying G-3 for decades now, won't even feel this one. And our army is actually very tough to begin with. You don't need to worry about it.

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## khanasifm



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## Path-Finder

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Indigenous solutions:
> View attachment 358985
> /QUOTE]


this one is Raytheon AN/PAS 13 which will most likely be replaced by the Shibli Tarsier!
http://www.raytheon.com/capabilities/products/tws/
PVS 5? damn man should stop making that now  its G3 of NV


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

Produces by IOP.


They showcased new products at IDEAS 16.


----------



## DJ_Viper

Skyliner said:


> One of the best rifle. Design, performance, built all is perfect.What i like the most in it is next to none recoil and so smooth barrel.
> I wish we select FN Scar for G3 replacement.



Ever fired an AR? It has less recoil than a 9MM Pistol.



> Badas*



Hello sweetheart, what's your name? You need to be in America. Let this Cowboy show you Texas, where everything is bigger and better . She looks like a typical Texan, blonde hair, green / hazle eyes and carrying a weapon. That is as Texan as you can get. The rest, I can take care of. Phew, she is hot. Just the way I like'em

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## WaLeEdK2

I gotta feeling the SCAR will replace the G3s. It's a perfect replacement


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## That Guy

Zarvan said:


> Now waiting for G3 replacement winner


It may very well be the Beretta, don't be too shocked or saddened if the SCAR doesn't win the contract.

Again, to me it is increasingly likely that the Beretta will replace the G-3.



Horus said:


> Excellent choice, although i would have waited for the SCAR X39 model to arrive. If we pick SCAR to replace G-3s then it would have made sense to have just one single production line for all rifles and training. Now we would have to train soldiers on two different rifles. By all means CZ-807 is an excellent platform to replace the good'ol Type-56.


Who knows, maybe we'll be surprised and CZ will bag the G-3 replacement contract as well.



Imran Khan said:


> will never believe until i see them in solders hands


you're gonna be waiting for a few years, if you only believe what you see. Infantry likely won't see the rifle at least until 2018-2019.

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## Zarvan

That Guy said:


> It may very well be the Beretta, don't be too shocked or saddened if the SCAR doesn't win the contract.
> 
> Again, to me it is increasingly likely that the Beretta will replace the G-3.
> 
> 
> Who knows, maybe we'll be surprised and CZ will bag the G-3 replacement contract as well.
> 
> 
> you're gonna be waiting for a few years, if you only believe what you see. Infantry likely won't see the rifle at least until 2018-2019.


SCAR is mostly likely the winner. Deal with SCAR is going to take place. Many friends who visited IDEAS talked to both POF and SCAR guys and it seem SCAR will strike the deal with Army. Berreta chances are further reducing not increasing. But now I am interested in whether we are also going to produce some 5.56 caliber assault rifle or not

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## maxpayne

Horus said:


> Excellent choice, although i would have waited for the SCAR X39 model to arrive. If we pick SCAR to replace G-3s then it would have made sense to have just one single production line for all rifles and training. Now we would have to train soldiers on two different rifles. By all means CZ-807 is an excellent platform to replace the good'ol Type-56.


SCAR no doubt a good rifle, but during tests it rear sight bcm loose after intensive u. It make her unsuitable for mountainous use. My unit mate was PN rep for rifle tests team!

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## Hell hound

Imran Khan said:


> i think these G3 must be replaced before my first birthday


barsi kay spelling ghalat likh gaye hay app  (sorry siraf joke tha allah ap ko lambi umer day)


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## JOEY TRIBIANI

Who will get the old g3's ?
Aik aad hamey bhi mil jaye to kiya harj ha

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## 544_delta

JOEY TRIBIANI said:


> Who will get the old g3's ?
> Aik aad hamey bhi mil jaye to kiya harj ha


free G3s for every PDF member...lets start a tehreek on that

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## Zarvan

maxpayne said:


> SCAR no doubt a good rifle, but during tests it rear sight bcm loose after intensive u. It make her unsuitable for mountainous use. My unit mate was PN rep for rifle tests team!


Did you tested SCAR 7.62 X 51 version or which one ?


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## maxpayne

Zarvan said:


> Did you tested SCAR 7.62 X 51 version or which one ?


My unit mate tested 5 of them. Except Russian AK103 all of them are excellent choices. Case was submitted many months ago and Headquarters are now analyzing different aspects wrt ease of use, ease of assembly/disassembly, cost, license building etc. I only know this bcz when i discussed SCAR, he said it has comparatively soft rear sight.

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## Imran Khan

Hell hound said:


> barsi kay spelling ghalat likh gaye hay app  (sorry siraf joke tha allah ap ko lambi umer day)


bhai ji no problem if they replace it before my barsi i will still be happy

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## Zarvan

maxpayne said:


> My unit mate tested 5 of them. Except Russian AK103 all of them are excellent choices. Case was submitted many months ago and Headquarters are now analyzing different aspects wrt ease of use, ease of assembly/disassembly, cost, license building etc. I only know this bcz when i discussed SCAR, he said it has comparatively soft rear sight.


My sources suggest SSG and most other units have recommended SCAR H. I mean in 7.62 x 51 category but not sure if SCAR 7.62 X 39 caliber participated or not


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## UkroTurk

denel said:


> friend, stopping power of x39 is higher. After 100m, 223 loses a lot of kt; there are many charts around to show you this.


7,62×39 loses more velocity.
Why Russians reduced caliber of Ak? Why ak74 use's 5.45x39?

CHANGİNG Caliber of CZ BREN you will change all enginering subjects.
BREN made for 5.56x 45mm .


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## nadeemkhan110

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> CZ 807 BREN has emerged as the finalist in Pakistan Army Service rifle trials to replace 7.62×39mm Chinese Type 56 rifles, ARMÁDNÍ NOVINY reported quoting Director of Military weapons in České zbrojovce, Martin Šanda. Special version CZ 807 BREN (Soviet 7.62×39mm) was offered to the Pakistan Army.
> _
> "Czech arms industry has successfully participated in the tender for the rearmament of the Pakistani army with it's CZ 807. Of the original eight candidates which met the extremely rigorous demands of the Pakistani army, there were only three finalists, including the CZ 807. For an idea of the scope of testing, I can say that the tests were conducted throughout 2016, in all weather conditions from the Himalayan glaciers, where the temperature dropped below -40° C up to the jungle or desert, where they climbed to the contrary, we recorded + 54° C, "_ commented Martin Šanda, on the Pakistani tender.
> 
> _"Apart from these tests conducted directly by users of the combat units and weapons, they were tested in laboratory "under applicable methodologies". CZ 807 was evaluated as the best in the context of user tests, for example, but also as the most accurate direct comparison of standardized absolute world elite. Additionally, the testing was attended throughout by CZ representatives who collected valuable data for further development of service weapons. Some of them spent most of the year in Pakistan in difficult conditions," _ Šanda added.


Original Picture of CZ-807


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## Zarvan

nadeemkhan110 said:


> Original Picture of CZ-807


This is not CZ 807 but CZ 806


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## SSGcommandoPAK

807 in Ideas 2016

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## khanasifm

Looks like 4 states

1 locked
2 single round per trigger
3 two rounds burst per trigger press 
4 full auto


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## Zarvan

YousufSSG said:


> 807 in Ideas 2016



The second picture is not of CZ 807 that is CZ 806

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## MystryMan

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> CZ 807 BREN has emerged as the finalist in Pakistan Army Service rifle trials to replace 7.62×39mm Chinese Type 56 rifles, ARMÁDNÍ NOVINY reported quoting Director of Military weapons in České zbrojovce, Martin Šanda. Special version CZ 807 BREN (Soviet 7.62×39mm) was offered to the Pakistan Army.
> _
> "Czech arms industry has successfully participated in the tender for the rearmament of the Pakistani army with it's CZ 807. Of the *original eight candidates* which met the extremely rigorous demands of the Pakistani army, there were only three finalists, including the CZ 807. For an idea of the scope of testing, I can say that the tests were conducted throughout 2016, in all weather conditions from the Himalayan glaciers, where the temperature dropped below -40° C up to the jungle or desert, where they climbed to the contrary, we recorded + 54° C, "_ commented Martin Šanda, on the Pakistani tender.



According to CZ rep there were eight rifles participating. We know about five (SCAR, ARX, BREN, AK-103 and M21) but who were the other three?


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## Gryphon

MystryMan said:


> According to CZ rep there were eight rifles participating. We know about five (SCAR, ARX, BREN, AK-103 and M21) but who were the other three?



6th was MKEK MPT-76. I don't know the names of last two.



nadeemkhan110 said:


> Original Picture of CZ-807



CZ-807 uses a curved magazine.

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## Path-Finder

YousufSSG said:


> 807 in Ideas 2016


did you take these pics?



Zarvan said:


> SCAR is mostly likely the winner. Deal with SCAR is going to take place. Many friends who visited IDEAS talked to both POF and SCAR guys and it seem SCAR will strike the deal with Army. Berreta chances are further reducing not increasing. But now I am interested in whether we are also going to produce some 5.56 caliber assault rifle or not


Hazrat @Zarvan are you prepared for defeat if* your* SCAR does not win??


----------



## Vergennes

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat @Zarvan are you prepared for defeat if* your* SCAR does not win??



I have an ambulance on stand-by in case something happens.

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> did you take these pics?
> 
> 
> Hazrat @Zarvan are you prepared for defeat if* your* SCAR does not win??


I am but I am confident that SCAR H will win the tender to replace G3

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## Path-Finder

Vergennes said:


> I have an ambulance on stand-by in case something happens.
> 
> View attachment 359161


 you may need to keep a toy SCAR in there

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## Maea

Beretta ho ya scar ho ya bren mujhe kabul hain kabul hain kabul hain


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## SSGcommandoPAK

Path-Finder said:


> did you take these pics?
> 
> 
> Hazrat @Zarvan are you prepared for defeat if* your* SCAR does not win??


Nop ! Some one posted them on FB


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## ZedZeeshan

Zarvan said:


> I am but I am confident that SCAR H will win the tender to replace G3


Any pic of SCAR H???..appreciate if you can share ..!


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## Thorough Pro

There are NO thermal imaging rifles anywhere in the world, thermal sights to put on rifles yes!




maroofz2000 said:


> BROTHERS YOU NEED TO PURCHASE THERMAL IMAGING RIFLES FOR THE SPECIAL FORCES UNITS DEPLOYED IN HIGH ALTITUDE SNOW CAPPED MOUNTAINS REGIONS.

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## mustafa erkan

Will Pakistan choose 2 different caliber weapons?
7.62*51mm effectivenes far better than 7.62*39 mm.I read a Turkish engineer memories and he was saying in theoric there is not so much difference but in pratic there is a big difference.I mean 7.62*39mm and 7.62*51mm is not comparable.


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## Thorough Pro

you want the same TI's for assault rifles as fitted on helis?




TheNoob said:


> wow, times have changed in just 3 years.....
> 
> but i doubt we have the ones with good imaging quality, such as those on helicopters and planes used from miles away.



3 position gas block adjustment vs 2, non-reciprocating charging handle vs reciprocating, full ambidextrous compatible/configurable, etc



Thunder.Storm said:


> i can't understand the difference b/w CZ 806 and CZ 807. Can u help me to understand?



empty gun weight means nothing as soldier carries one with the full mag which is 3.985kg with 30 round mag



Muhammad Omar said:


> 3.6 KG





DJ_Viper said:


> How heavy is this? Do you know? This looks pretty heavy to me, may be its all composites so it would be lighter when you hold it. But AR type rifles are much less of a weight to keep in your hands. A soldier needs to be agile and be holding lighter weapons for quick reaction.


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## Water Car Engineer

Nice. I wanted this to win the IA's original tender.

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## Thorough Pro

CZ 807 is a gem of a weapon. It is basically a Scar inspired design with easy multi caliber (7.62x39 & 5.45x45) conversion. comes in 3 barrel lengths (8", 11", 14"). Manufactured by CZ (It's a statement in itself, people who know small arms know what CZ stands for), no power politics, no sanctions, comes with real TOT. what else do you need?

Regarding the caliber, 7.62X39 is an assault weapon category, which Pakistan needs "now" due to ongoing WOT. 7.62x51 is a battle field caliber, which we don't need "now". If I understand the PA mentality, it will NEVER go with two different OEM's because of obvious financial constraints. I suspect our deal would be to go for TOT for the x39 now with a contract for CZ to design a x51 caliber design per our requirements (in a specified time) with some common design features/parts across both platforms (like butt stock, trigger group, hand guard, rails, lower receiver (with slightly different specs) etc., transfer TOT for the additional parts to enable us to completely manufacture the two weapons at POF. This is exactly what we did in the past H&K G3 + HK MP5 + HK MP5K, all three weapons for three different rolls with many common parts and manufacturing processes. Optimum utilisation of investment.

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## 50cent

Water Car Engineer said:


> Nice. I wanted this to win the IA's original tender.


HK is more accurate than this

This article is old from magizne



mustafa erkan said:


> Will Pakistan choose 2 different caliber weapons?
> 7.62*51mm effectivenes far better than 7.62*39 mm.I read a Turkish engineer memories and he was saying in theoric there is not so much difference but in pratic there is a big difference.I mean 7.62*39mm and 7.62*51mm is not comparable.


This cz is multi caliber anyone can adjust to its size

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## Thorough Pro

unfortunately booth guys don't get to decide.




Zarvan said:


> SCAR is mostly likely the winner. Deal with SCAR is going to take place. Many friends who visited IDEAS talked to both POF and SCAR guys and it seem SCAR will strike the deal with Army. Berreta chances are further reducing not increasing. But now I am interested in whether we are also going to produce some 5.56 caliber assault rifle or not



Doesn't that come automatically with 807? 3 more parts and you got a new caliber




Zarvan said:


> SCAR is mostly likely the winner. Deal with SCAR is going to take place. Many friends who visited IDEAS talked to both POF and SCAR guys and it seem SCAR will strike the deal with Army. Berreta chances are further reducing not increasing. *But now I am interested in whether we are also going to produce some 5.56 caliber assault rifle or not*



LOL, the whole internet world will mourn his "defeatimise"



Vergennes said:


> I have an ambulance on stand-by in case something happens.
> 
> View attachment 359161


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

Vergennes said:


> I have an ambulance on stand-by in case something happens.
> 
> View attachment 359161


----------



## Zarvan

Thorough Pro said:


> unfortunately booth guys don't get to decide.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Doesn't that come automatically with 807? 3 more parts and you got a new caliber
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LOL, the whole internet world will mourn his "defeatimise"



Pakistan is in talks for 7.62 X 51 caliber Rifle now and for that SCAR H and Berreta ARX 200 are the candidates you can check from any one if you like. Soon decision would be taken about that also. So please give me a break. Which ever rifle will be selected from these two that would also be produced at Pakistan and also will have permission to export


----------



## lastofthepatriots

Zarvan said:


> Pakistan is in talks for 7.62 X 51 caliber Rifle now and for that SCAR H and Berreta ARX 200 are the candidates you can check from any one if you like. Soon decision would be taken about that also. So please give me a break. Which ever rifle will be selected from these two that would also be produced at Pakistan and also will have permission to export



Zarvan bhai, I truly like HK-417 better than both of these options. Not sure why PA did not consider it. What is your opinion on HK-417? I think it would have made a formidable battle rifle.


----------



## Zarvan

lastofthepatriots said:


> Zarvan bhai, I truly like HK-417 better than both of these options. Not sure why PA did not consider it. What is your opinion on HK-417? I think it would have made a formidable battle rifle.


Germany Government is creating lot of problems for HK and other companies when they sell weapons to Muslim countries that is why they were avoided


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## Path-Finder

lastofthepatriots said:


> Zarvan bhai, I truly like HK-417 better than both of these options. Not sure why PA did not consider it. What is your opinion on HK-417? I think it would have made a formidable battle rifle.


HK said that they will no longer sell weapons to non NATO nations! I suppose they can make enough income from NATO nations


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## lastofthepatriots

Path-Finder said:


> HK said that they will no longer sell weapons to non NATO nations! I suppose they can make enough income from NATO nations



Dirty krauts.

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## Wolfhound

IMO the Bren was the second best weapon in this trial. The 807's is a great choice for 7.62x39. These are some of the improvements it has over the 806.






But i would still prefer a 7.62x39 Fn Scar variant over it any day, even more so if the Fn Scar it is selected in the 7.62x51 category, as it will increase weapon interchangeability and would decrees costs aswell. I would have said the same about the 806 but it does not have a 7.62x51 variant.


----------



## Path-Finder

mustafa erkan said:


> Will Pakistan choose 2 different caliber weapons?
> 7.62*51mm effectivenes far better than 7.62*39 mm.I read a Turkish engineer memories and he was saying in theoric there is not so much difference but in pratic there is a big difference.I mean 7.62*39mm and 7.62*51mm is not comparable.


in the early 2000's there was talk and rumours of changing caliber to 556. But that thought never materalised as COIN ops began and the cartridge that delivered the punch in knocking down terrorist was x39. It did the job extremely well as the doctrine in Pak army is shoot to kill not maim. so both 7.62 calibers are the standards now.

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## Zarvan



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## Thorough Pro

Give you? a break? seriously?



Zarvan said:


> Pakistan is in talks for 7.62 X 51 caliber Rifle now and for that SCAR H and Berreta ARX 200 are the candidates you can check from any one if you like. Soon decision would be taken about that also. *So please give me a break*. Which ever rifle will be selected from these two that would also be produced at Pakistan and also will have permission to export


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## Zarvan

Thorough Pro said:


> Give you? a break? seriously?


We are opting for two rifles one for 7.62 X 39 caliber and one for 7.62 X 51 caliber so one has been selected and talks for other one are taking place and we may hear about the winner soon.

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## LegitimateIdiot

Wait is it a possibility that the SCAR would be supplied to more elite units of the pakistan army



TaimiKhan said:


> For a 5.56, the recoil seems to be big. Strange.


it's also because it's slightly based of of the Kalashnikov design



TaimiKhan said:


> For a 5.56, the recoil seems to be big. Strange.


this isn't the 
*CZ-806 Bren2*
*which has less recoil*


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## Zarvan

LegitimateIdiot said:


> Wait is it a possibility that the SCAR would be supplied to more elite units of the pakistan army
> 
> 
> it's also because it's slightly based of of the Kalashnikov design
> 
> 
> this isn't the
> *CZ-806 Bren2*
> *which has less recoil*


Not elite units but every one. Pakistan Army solider these days use two rifles G3 and Type 56 and both will be replaced. CZ 807 will replace Type 56 and talks are on for G3 replacement and for that Berreta ARX 200 and FN SCAR H are competing

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Thorough Pro said:


> CZ 807 is a gem of a weapon. It is basically a Scar inspired design with easy multi caliber (7.62x39 & 5.45x45) conversion. comes in 3 barrel lengths (8", 11", 14"). Manufactured by CZ (It's a statement in itself, people who know small arms know what CZ stands for), no power politics, no sanctions, comes with real TOT. what else do you need?
> 
> Regarding the caliber, 7.62X39 is an assault weapon category, which Pakistan needs "now" due to ongoing WOT. 7.62x51 is a battle field caliber, which we don't need "now". If I understand the PA mentality, it will NEVER go with two different OEM's because of obvious financial constraints. I suspect our deal would be to go for TOT for the x39 now with a contract for CZ to design a x51 caliber design per our requirements (in a specified time) with some common design features/parts across both platforms (like butt stock, trigger group, hand guard, rails, lower receiver (with slightly different specs) etc., transfer TOT for the additional parts to enable us to completely manufacture the two weapons at POF. This is exactly what we did in the past H&K G3 + HK MP5 + HK MP5K, all three weapons for three different rolls with many common parts and manufacturing processes. Optimum utilisation of investment.


I think this will be the most likely course of action as well. 

Yes, the CZ-807 is being selected to replace the Type 56 initially, but there is no reason why the PA and POF wouldn't work with CZ to get a 7.62x51 mm BREN down the line.

If folks want the SCAR-H on the premise that a 7.62x39 SCAR would come down the line, I'm not sure why the reverse scenario wouldn't be applicable to the BREN. Sticking to the BREN will enable the armed forces to train for one rifle and for POF to efficiently - and cost-effectively - manufacture one platform.

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## mustafa erkan

Zarvan said:


> We are opting for two rifles one for 7.62 X 39 caliber and one for 7.62 X 51 caliber so one has been selected and talks for other one are taking place and we may hear about the winner soon.


Yes i think this may be true and 7.62x51 option may be MPT-76 too.
For type56 CZ Bren
For G3 MPT76?


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## Gryphon

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Yes, the CZ-807 is being selected to replace the Type 56 initially, but there is no reason why the PA and POF wouldn't work with CZ to get a 7.62x51 mm BREN down the line.
> 
> Sticking to the BREN will enable the armed forces to train for one rifle and for POF to efficiently - and cost-effectively - manufacture one platform.



It was reported by all sources that PA was testing CZ 806 BREN 2 just like most of them were reporting Zastava M21 was under trials instead of the M77. But, pictures of BREN 2 were different from the rifle PA was offered (See Page 1 of this thread). The one seen in Pakistan uses a curved magazine (like AK-47) and I am glad Mr. Martin Šanda has confirmed that it was the 7.62x39mm CZ 807 which was trialed 'successfully' by PA.

I believe both FN and Beretta have already lost the tender. While the rifles offered by FN (x51 and x39) are very expensive, the ARX-160 (x39) offered by Beretta will be a 'downgrade' of the army units using the Chinese AK-47s.

From ARMÁDNÍ NOVINY article:

*"..............CZ BREN 2 is very well thought out platform family of multirážové assault rifles in three calibers 5.56 × 45 NATO / 7.62 x 39 / 7.62 x 51. From the shortest 8 "special, to the rifle for precision shooters. *_*All while maintaining the same shooting habits, control, ergonomics and sustainability of weapons in combat deployment, "* _said Šanda explaining a major shift from CZ 805 to CZ BREN 2.


You can now speculate what is coming as a replacement for G3.  

@Path-Finder @Thorough Pro @Horus @Kurlang @Suff Shikan

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> It was reported by all sources that PA was testing CZ 806 BREN 2 just like most of them were reporting Zastava M21 was under trials instead of the M77. But, pictures of BREN 2 were different from the rifle PA was offered (See Page 1 of this thread). The one seen in Pakistan uses a curved magazine (like AK-47) and I am glad Mr. Martin Šanda has confirmed that it was the 7.62x39mm CZ 807 which was trialed 'successfully' by PA.
> 
> I believe both FN and Beretta have already lost the tender. While the rifles offered by FN (x51 and x39) are very expensive, the ARX-160 (x39) offered by Beretta will be a 'downgrade' of the army units using the Chinese AK-47s.
> 
> From ARMÁDNÍ NOVINY article:
> 
> *"..............CZ BREN 2 is very well thought out platform family of multirážové assault rifles in three calibers 5.56 × 45 NATO / 7.62 x 39 / 7.62 x 51. From the shortest 8 "special, to the rifle for precision shooters. *_*All while maintaining the same shooting habits, control, ergonomics and sustainability of weapons in combat deployment, "* _said Šanda explaining a major shift from CZ 805 to CZ BREN 2.
> 
> 
> You can now speculate what is coming as a replacement for G3.
> 
> @Path-Finder @Thorough Pro @Horus @Kurlang @Suff Shikan


Yes, it seems like the CZ-806 BREN 2 and CZ-807 (7.62x39) are in fact different sub-families of the CZ-805 BREN. But from what I remember, the CZ-807 predates the CZ-806, it came around the time of the CZ-805A2 in 2013 and was made for India's rifle trials. So it doesn't benefit from the CZ-806's improvements in recoil and weight (unless the 806 was made from the 807).

What could end up happening now is that we see _another_ sub-family, one that aims to tackle 5.56 NATO, 7.62x39, and 7.62 NATO while also building on the improvements of the BREN 2. Maybe a BREN 3?

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## Gryphon

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Yes, it seems like the CZ-806 BREN 2 and CZ-807 (7.62x39) are in fact different sub-families of the CZ-805 BREN. But from what I remember, the CZ-807 predates the CZ-806, it came around the time of the CZ-805A2 in 2013 and was made for India's rifle trials. So it doesn't benefit from the CZ-806's improvements in recoil and weight.
> 
> What could end up happening now is that we see _another_ sub-family, one that aims to tackle 5.56 NATO, 7.62x39, and 7.62 NATO while also building on the improvements of the BREN 2. Maybe a BREN 3?



CZ 805 weighs 3.60 Kg, CZ-807 weighs 3.31 Kg (x39) while CZ 806 Bren 2 is around 3.10 Kg.

The CZ 807 trialed by India failed (or some officials made it fail due to no offer of kickbacks ). The CZ-807 trialed by PA passed to become one of the three finalists. I assume they offered an improved version to PA. It will not take them much time to come with a 7.62x51mm version of CZ 807. Otherwise, they can offer the x51 BREN 2 variant.

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## Thorough Pro

I know that for the last few years, but what was your point?



Zarvan said:


> We are opting for two rifles one for 7.62 X 39 caliber and one for 7.62 X 51 caliber so one has been selected and talks for other one are taking place and we may hear about the winner soon.


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## Thunder.Storm

Thorough Pro said:


> empty gun weight means nothing as soldier carries one with the full mag which is 3.985kg with 30 round mag


read my post again.


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## Areesh

Don't think PA would go for some other gun to replace G3.

It would be some other variant of CZ Bren. For all fanboys of SCAR-H I think it is time they accept the fact that SCAR is not coming to PA.

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## Gryphon

Areesh said:


> Don't think PA would go for some other gun to replace G3.
> 
> It would be some other variant of CZ Bren. For all fanboys of SCAR-H I think it is time they accept the fact that SCAR is not coming to PA.



Producing two rifles from two OEMs will make it complex & costly for POF. My bet is 7.62x51mm CZ 806 BREN 2 or CZ 807 BREN. LoU to negotiate small arms sale/ToT with CZ has reinforced this idea. That means no Beretta or SCAR. But, fanboys will get a no. of scars somewhere.

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## Zarvan

Areesh said:


> Don't think PA would go for some other gun to replace G3.
> 
> It would be some other variant of CZ Bren. For all fanboys of SCAR-H I think it is time they accept the fact that SCAR is not coming to PA.



There is no BREN 7.62 X 51 yet. Pakistan won't wait for more months. Talks are on with Berreta and SCAR H and one of them will be selected.



TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Producing two rifles from two OEMs will make it complex & costly for POF. My bet is 7.62x51mm CZ 806 BREN 2 or CZ 807 BREN. LoU to negotiate small arms sale/ToT with CZ has reinforced this idea. That means no Beretta or SCAR. But, fanboys will get a no. of scars somewhere.


You will see it yourself no BREN 7.62 X 51 is coming. For 7.62 X 51 it's either SCAR H or Berreta ARX 200. As for production cost and other that is nothing much if we are getting permission to export them.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Zarvan said:


> There is no BREN 7.62 X 51 yet. Pakistan won't wait for more months. Talks are on with Berreta and SCAR H and one of them will be selected.
> 
> 
> You will see it yourself no BREN 7.62 X 51 is coming. For 7.62 X 51 it's either SCAR H or Berreta ARX 200. As for production cost and other that is nothing much if we are getting permission to export them.


1. You had no problem believing that the PA would wait for a 7.62x39 SCAR if the SCAR-H is selected, then why is the reverse with waiting BREN 7.62x51 after selecting the BREN 7.62x39 not possible? 

2. Being able to export expensive rifles doesn't mean that the Army itself would be available to afford all those rifles for itself. The price tag of any product is comprised of (1) the cost of R&D, (2) the cost of production (e.g. labour), and (3) the profit. Assuming the POF SCAR-H costs $2,000 (which is a steep drop from the current rate), POF would get a return of 20-25% in profit. Let's assume POF doesn't take any portion of the profit (for new projects), that would mean the Army would have to sell 3 SCAR-H in order to fund one of its own SCAR-H. How many countries are there right now capable of buying that many rifles? Saudi Arabia (assuming they don't end up buying from others)? Who else? 

3. I agree, the PA wasn't too worried about cost, otherwise they would've selected some sub-$1,000 rifle from China or Russia. The POF BREN itself would probably come in the range of $1,200-1,500 (i.e. in the territory of the MKEK MPT-76). But being flexible on cost does not mean being oblivious to affordability and _bang for the buck. _Yes, the SCAR-H is the best rifle, but why would that matter when the SCAR, ARX and BREN each passed the Army's criteria? Shoppers look for "the best," but organizations - be it Pakistan or even the U.S. - look for what "meets the requirements."

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## Taimur Khurram

Ghazwa e Hind said:


> no! don't consider it official please. I am a journalist with defense as my beat. Just connecting the strings and it is one of my analysis. I can proudly say that my analysis prove to be right oftenly. ARX-200 is a strong contender unlike SCAR which many members on this forum think. ARX-200 is getting serious attention and passed the tough standards of Pakistan Army.



What about that Turkish rifle? There was a bunch of news about that recently.


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## Zarvan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> 1. You had no problem believing that the PA would wait for a 7.62x39 SCAR if the SCAR-H is selected, then why is the reverse with waiting BREN 7.62x51 after selecting the BREN 7.62x39 not possible?
> 
> 2. Being able to export expensive rifles doesn't mean that the Army itself would be available to afford all those rifles for itself. The price tag of any product is comprised of (1) the cost of R&D, (2) the cost of production (e.g. labour), and (3) the profit. Assuming the POF SCAR-H costs $2,000 (which is a steep drop from the current rate), POF would get a return of 20-25% in profit. Let's assume POF doesn't take any portion of the profit (for new projects), that would mean the Army would have to sell 3 SCAR-H in order to fund one of its own SCAR-H. How many countries are there right now capable of buying that many rifles? Saudi Arabia (assuming they don't end up buying from others)? Who else?
> 
> 3. I agree, the PA wasn't too worried about cost, otherwise they would've selected some sub-$1,000 rifle from China or Russia. The POF BREN itself would probably come in the range of $1,200-1,500 (i.e. in the territory of the MKEK MPT-76). But being flexible on cost does not mean being oblivious to affordability and _bang for the buck. _Yes, the SCAR-H is the best rifle, but why would that matter when the SCAR, ARX and BREN each passed the Army's criteria? Shoppers look for "the best," but organizations - be it Pakistan or even the U.S. - look for what "meets the requirements."


I know some MODS who are in contact with SCAR guy who is in Pakistan for trials. He is well confident for the deal. The talks with BREN never took place for X 51 it was for X 39. As we speak Pakistan is in talks with FN and Berreta for 7.62 X 51. As for nightmare issues because of so called logistics and other things than these people need to know history of our Armed Forces we alwaus like two to three different kind whether in Tanks or IFV or APC or other weapons unlike USA and UK and Euorpe



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> 1. You had no problem believing that the PA would wait for a 7.62x39 SCAR if the SCAR-H is selected, then why is the reverse with waiting BREN 7.62x51 after selecting the BREN 7.62x39 not possible?
> 
> 2. Being able to export expensive rifles doesn't mean that the Army itself would be available to afford all those rifles for itself. The price tag of any product is comprised of (1) the cost of R&D, (2) the cost of production (e.g. labour), and (3) the profit. Assuming the POF SCAR-H costs $2,000 (which is a steep drop from the current rate), POF would get a return of 20-25% in profit. Let's assume POF doesn't take any portion of the profit (for new projects), that would mean the Army would have to sell 3 SCAR-H in order to fund one of its own SCAR-H. How many countries are there right now capable of buying that many rifles? Saudi Arabia (assuming they don't end up buying from others)? Who else?
> 
> 3. I agree, the PA wasn't too worried about cost, otherwise they would've selected some sub-$1,000 rifle from China or Russia. The POF BREN itself would probably come in the range of $1,200-1,500 (i.e. in the territory of the MKEK MPT-76). But being flexible on cost does not mean being oblivious to affordability and _bang for the buck. _Yes, the SCAR-H is the best rifle, but why would that matter when the SCAR, ARX and BREN each passed the Army's criteria? Shoppers look for "the best," but organizations - be it Pakistan or even the U.S. - look for what "meets the requirements."


Each and everything was calculated before starting trials. Decision was taken afters years of research and other work.


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> I know some MODS who are in contact with SCAR guy who is in Pakistan for trials. He is well confident for the deal. The talks with BREN never took place for X 51 it was for X 39. As we speak Pakistan is in talks with FN and Berreta for 7.62 X 51. As for nightmare issues because of so called logistics and other things than these people need to know history of our Armed Forces we alwaus like two to three different kind whether in Tanks or IFV or APC or other weapons unlike USA and UK and Euorpe
> 
> 
> Each and everything was calculated before starting trials. Decision was taken afters years of research and other work.


Hazrat @Zarvan which mods are in touch with FN? tell us as well. Your Blind support of a product doesn't reflect on realities that will take place and be prepared for a shock because these informants of yours told you that CZ SCAR was out but it won the tender! so lay off the reports and wait for official confirmation. as for CZ x51 the jury is out there!


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat @Zarvan which mods are in touch with FN? tell us as well. Your Blind support of a product doesn't reflect on realities that will take place and be prepared for a shock because these informants of yours told you that CZ SCAR was out but it won the tender! so lay off the reports and wait for official confirmation. as for CZ x51 the jury is out there!


Go to my twitter account or facebook you will get the clue specially from twitter account


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## Path-Finder

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> It was reported by all sources that PA was testing CZ 806 BREN 2 just like most of them were reporting Zastava M21 was under trials instead of the M77. But, pictures of BREN 2 were different from the rifle PA was offered (See Page 1 of this thread). The one seen in Pakistan uses a curved magazine (like AK-47) and I am glad Mr. Martin Šanda has confirmed that it was the 7.62x39mm CZ 807 which was trialed 'successfully' by PA.
> 
> I believe both FN and Beretta have already lost the tender. While the rifles offered by FN (x51 and x39) are very expensive, the ARX-160 (x39) offered by Beretta will be a 'downgrade' of the army units using the Chinese AK-47s.
> 
> From ARMÁDNÍ NOVINY article:
> 
> *"..............CZ BREN 2 is very well thought out platform family of multirážové assault rifles in three calibers 5.56 × 45 NATO / 7.62 x 39 / 7.62 x 51. From the shortest 8 "special, to the rifle for precision shooters. *_*All while maintaining the same shooting habits, control, ergonomics and sustainability of weapons in combat deployment, "* _said Šanda explaining a major shift from CZ 805 to CZ BREN 2.
> 
> 
> You can now speculate what is coming as a replacement for G3.
> 
> @Path-Finder @Thorough Pro @Horus @Kurlang @Suff Shikan


More nails in the coffin of SCAR ooops i better not make the SCAR fans . It is becoming certain that a CZ SCAR *can* happen and it will be good to see what that rifle will be like despite there being a minority wanting SCAR to win just because it aesthetically appeases them and PA is no rush to adopt a platform either they rather get the best solution possible and CZ SCAR can be it!

There is a video that I cannot locate in which the person from CZ said the rifle was designed to handle the 7.62 calibre so 556 is absolutely *NO* issue for CZ BREN if NATO adopts a 6mm cartridge then the BREN will have no issues at all!! Problem is I cannot locate the video. as for the numbers 805 to 807 well don't be surprised if 809 turns up because CZ as a company goes to the drawing board from what we can gather to further improve the rifle platform, all based on feedback and the data collected by CZ from PA may lead to another improved variant!



Zarvan said:


> Go to my twitter account or facebook you will get the clue specially from twitter account


give the twitter account?


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## Gryphon

dsr478 said:


> What about that Turkish rifle? There was a bunch of news about that recently.



It is out of the race.

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> More nails in the coffin of SCAR ooops i better not make the SCAR fans . It is becoming certain that a CZ SCAR *can* happen and it will be good to see what that rifle will be like despite there being a minority wanting SCAR to win just because it aesthetically appeases them and PA is no rush to adopt a platform either they rather get the best solution possible and CZ SCAR can be it!
> 
> There is a video that I cannot locate in which the person from CZ said the rifle was designed to handle the 7.62 calibre so 556 is absolutely *NO* issue for CZ BREN if NATO adopts a 6mm cartridge then the BREN will have no issues at all!! Problem is I cannot locate the video. as for the numbers 805 to 807 well don't be surprised if 809 turns up because CZ as a company goes to the drawing board from what we can gather to further improve the rifle platform, all based on feedback and the data collected by CZ from PA may lead to another improved variant!
> 
> 
> give the twitter account?



https://twitter.com/zarwanali1989?lang=en


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> https://twitter.com/zarwanali1989?lang=en


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## Gryphon

Path-Finder said:


> More nails in the coffin of SCAR ooops i better not make the SCAR fans . It is becoming certain that a CZ SCAR *can* happen and it will be good to see what that rifle will be like despite there being a minority wanting SCAR to win just because it aesthetically appeases them and PA is no rush to adopt a platform either they rather get the best solution possible and CZ SCAR can be it!



From what the rumours are, FN SCAR will be purchased for SSG/SSW/SSG(N) directly from FN without any local production involved. I don't foresee PA replacing thousands of HK G3's with FN SCAR (which costs 2500 - 3000 USD each). 

Take a look at the FN Minimi on the table (near SCAR). I guess SF's are getting a new LMG instead of MG3. In modern warfare, there is focus on lighter weapons. Minimi is 3 Kg lighter than MG3 .

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## MystryMan

Thorough Pro said:


> CZ 807 is a gem of a weapon. It is basically a Scar inspired design with easy multi caliber (7.62x39 & 5.45x45) conversion. comes in 3 barrel lengths (8", 11", 14"). Manufactured by CZ (It's a statement in itself, people who know small arms know what CZ stands for), no power politics, no sanctions, comes with real TOT. what else do you need?
> 
> Regarding the caliber, 7.62X39 is an assault weapon category, which Pakistan needs "now" due to ongoing WOT. 7.62x51 is a battle field caliber, which we don't need "now". If I understand the PA mentality, it will NEVER go with two different OEM's because of obvious financial constraints. I suspect our deal would be to go for TOT for the x39 now with a contract for CZ to design a x51 caliber design per our requirements (in a specified time) with some common design features/parts across both platforms (like butt stock, trigger group, hand guard, rails, lower receiver (with slightly different specs) etc., transfer TOT for the additional parts to enable us to completely manufacture the two weapons at POF. This is exactly what we did in the past H&K G3 + HK MP5 + HK MP5K, all three weapons for three different rolls with many common parts and manufacturing processes. Optimum utilisation of investment.



You put it beautifully, this should be the way to go.

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## LegitimateIdiot

Zarvan said:


> Not elite units but every one. Pakistan Army solider these days use two rifles G3 and Type 56 and both will be replaced. CZ 807 will replace Type 56 and talks are on for G3 replacement and for that Berreta ARX 200 and FN SCAR H are competing


so zarvan how would you react if the baretta arx 200 won over the scar


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## Zarvan

LegitimateIdiot said:


> so zarvan how would you react if the baretta arx 200 won over the scar


Little sad obviously but not that sad because the rifles which were tested I hated AK-103 and Serbian Gun the most and they are out but I would say that SCAR have more chances to come in 7.62 X 51 category but I am also hoping to see more optics coming with new Assault Rifles.

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## LegitimateIdiot

Zarvan said:


> Little sad obviously but not that sad because the rifles which were tested I hated AK-103 and Serbian Gun the most and they are out but I would say that SCAR have more chances to come in 7.62 X 51 category but I am also hoping to see more optics coming with new Assault Rifles.


In reality what would you think would win between the arrx 200 and scar


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## Zarvan

LegitimateIdiot said:


> In reality what would you think would win between the arrx 200 and scar


SCAR H because not only it performed better in trials but also I know people who are in contact with FN and also our Army they are also suggesting that SCAR has more chances but you never know so waiting for final decision to take place on 7.62 X 51 caliber rifle to get selected.

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## LegitimateIdiot

I was going to to website talking about the improvements of the cz 806 bren 2 over the cz 805 , but due to my inactivity i can't post links so i'll just copy and paste.

The new Bren 2 significantly improved ergonomics and functionality structure.Manipulators are operated intuitively and tensioning handle itself remains stationary while firing. Added a much better position flask with adjustable feet finished prominent damper / Photo: CZ

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## Taimur Khurram

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> It is out of the race.



Remind me again, what are the ones still in the race to replace the G3?


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## Areesh

Zarvan said:


> There is no BREN 7.62 X 51 yet. Pakistan won't wait for more months. Talks are on with Berreta and SCAR H and one of them will be selected



You seriously need to do something for your obsession with this gun Scar-H.

It is just a freaking assault rifle after all.



GIANTsasquatch said:


> punjabi jarnails and their new toys. What a pleasant surprise!



Smoking sasti charas in canada??

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## echo 1

Congratulations!!!! I had a feeling that they would choose the Bren, very exciting news and progress for Pakistan

Now are these going to be built in house or shipped


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## T-123456

@Zarvan bro,so they decided to go for the Bren?


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## Zarvan

T-123456 said:


> @Zarvan bro,so they decided to go for the Bren?


For 7.62 X 39 caliber BREN is coming but for 7.62 X 51 caliber it would be either Berreta ARX 200 or SCAR H

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## DESERT FIGHTER

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> From what the rumours are, FN SCAR will be purchased for SSG/SSW/SSG(N) directly from FN without any local production involved. I don't foresee PA replacing thousands of HK G3's with FN SCAR (which costs 2500 - 3000 USD each).
> 
> Take a look at the FN Minimi on the table (near SCAR). I guess SF's are getting a new LMG instead of MG3. In modern warfare, there is focus on lighter weapons. Minimi is 3 Kg lighter than MG3 .



SF have had Minimis for years now:


https://www.google.com.pk/url?sa=t&...V6u8uK2SQvWi59hMCd3roQ&bvm=bv.141320020,d.d2s


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## Path-Finder

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> From what the rumours are, FN SCAR will be purchased for SSG/SSW/SSG(N) directly from FN without any local production involved. I don't foresee PA replacing thousands of HK G3's with FN SCAR (which costs 2500 - 3000 USD each).
> 
> Take a look at the FN Minimi on the table (near SCAR). I guess SF's are getting a new LMG instead of MG3. In modern warfare, there is focus on lighter weapons. Minimi is 3 Kg lighter than MG3 .


thats a Beretta ARX200!


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## Zarvan

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> SF have had Minimis for years now:
> 
> 
> https://www.google.com.pk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj32_m6oe3QAhXEthoKHdU1CwcQFggXMAA&url=https://defence.pk/threads/pakistans-special-operations-forces-ssg-ssgn-ssw-sow.113616/&usg=AFQjCNFQ0MKMV6u8uK2SQvWi59hMCd3roQ&bvm=bv.141320020,d.d2s


Yes but Pakistan is also looking to replace MG3 and for that MINIMI 7.62 X 51 are most favorite


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Zarvan said:


> Yes but Pakistan is also looking to replace MG3 and for that MINIMI 7.62 X 51 are most favorite



Doubt that.

MG3 is an excellent machine gun.


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## Zarvan

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Doubt that.
> 
> MG3 is an excellent machine gun.


I had also no idea that we could have been thinking of replacing MG 3 anytime soon it's one MOD of this forum who broke the news to me that not only Assault Rifles are being tested but Pakistan is also testing HandGuns and Machine Guns.

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## khanasifm

Mg3 is good in fixed palcement or vehicle mounted but not for dismounted troops, too heavy and big by today's std.

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## That Guy

khanasifm said:


> Mg3 is good in fixed palcement or vehicle mounted but not for dismounted troops, too heavy and big by today's std.


Agreed.

MG3 had it's place in history, but it's time to move on. It's more of a liability now to infantry, than an asset.


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## Gryphon

Path-Finder said:


> thats a Beretta ARX200!



Are you sure that is the ARX-200 ? 2nd or 3rd rifle (starting from SCAR) is a Minimi. I have seen a report debating it's presence among the weapons shown to former COAS.

BTW, I just saw the below pic of a CZ 807 from IDEAS 2016. Look what is written in the background. 







@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @That Guy @Areesh

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## Fenrir

That Guy said:


> Agreed.
> 
> MG3 had it's place in history, but it's time to move on. It's more of a liability now to infantry, than an asset.



Eh, I look at it as a usage issue. It's big and cumbersome making it great as a fixed gun emplacement or ship self defense weapon, but poor for maneuver warfare or supporting fast moving infantry. As such you typically see it used in such a manner.















No one's going around firing the damn thing from the hip like a 30 cal Stinger.





For supporting infantry assaults, lighter weapons are always going to be preferred.















The gun is fine. How it's being used needs to be reexamined and a shift in tactical usage reassessed.

That said for infantry support I whole heartedly support a shift towards a lighter more portable weapon like the FN Minimi.

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## Zarvan

Technogaianist said:


> Eh, I look at it as a usage issue. It's big and cumbersome making it great as a fixed gun emplacement or ship self defense weapon, but poor for maneuver warfare or supporting fast moving infantry. As such you typically see it used in such a manner.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No one's going around firing the damn thing from the hip like a 30 cal Stinger.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For supporting infantry assaults, lighter weapons are always going to be preferred.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The gun is fine. How it's being used needs to be reexamined and a shift in tactical usage reassessed.
> 
> That said for infantry support I whole heartedly support a shift towards a lighter more portable weapon like the FN Minimi.


That is exactly what we are doing MG 3 will remain in service but where it could be placed stationery for fire support but on section level lighter machine Gun is needed.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Technogaianist said:


> Eh, I look at it as a usage issue. It's big and cumbersome making it great as a fixed gun emplacement or ship self defense weapon, but poor for maneuver warfare or supporting fast moving infantry. As such you typically see it used in such a manner.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No one's going around firing the damn thing from the hip like a 30 cal Stinger.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For supporting infantry assaults, lighter weapons are always going to be preferred.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The gun is fine. How it's being used needs to be reexamined and a shift in tactical usage reassessed.
> 
> That said for infantry support I whole heartedly support a shift towards a lighter more portable weapon like the FN Minimi.


Danes in Afghanistan 






Estonians in A'Stan;











Germans;







Belgian SF ;







Pak Army;






MG3 upgrade 







*
Pak Army*

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Technogaianist said:


> Eh, I look at it as a usage issue. It's big and cumbersome making it great as a fixed gun emplacement or ship self defense weapon, but poor for maneuver warfare or supporting fast moving infantry. As such you typically see it used in such a manner.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No one's going around firing the damn thing from the hip like a 30 cal Stinger.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For supporting infantry assaults, lighter weapons are always going to be preferred.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The gun is fine. How it's being used needs to be reexamined and a shift in tactical usage reassessed.
> 
> That said for infantry support I whole heartedly support a shift towards a lighter more portable weapon like the FN Minimi.


Meanwhile Pak special forces are already using minis.

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## Cornered Tiger

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Are you sure that is the ARX-200 ? 2nd or 3rd rifle (starting from SCAR) is a Minimi. I have seen a report debating it's presence among the weapons shown to former COAS.
> 
> BTW, I just saw the below pic of a CZ 807 from IDEAS 2016. Look what is written in the background.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @That Guy @Areesh



@TheOccupiedKashmir So CZ-806 Bren 2 type modified CZ-807 has been selected to replace Type-56? Is Pakistan going to use it as Assault Rifle i.e. in border areas as Type-56 is the standard Assault Rifle of Army?

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## Gryphon

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Meanwhile Pak special forces are already using minis.



In limited numbers and probably the 5.56 mm variant.


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## Zarvan

Cornered Tiger said:


> @TheOccupiedKashmir So CZ-806 Bren 2 type modified CZ-807 has been selected to replace Type-56? Is Pakistan going to use it as Assault Rifle i.e. in border areas as Type-56 is the standard Assault Rifle of Army?


Pakistan is pretty much using both Type 56 and G3 as standard Assault Rifles.

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## Cool_Soldier

CZ 807 Bren Rifle Looks sexy, Good luck Army


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## Path-Finder

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Are you sure that is the ARX-200 ? 2nd or 3rd rifle (starting from SCAR) is a Minimi. I have seen a report debating it's presence among the weapons shown to former COAS.
> 
> BTW, I just saw the below pic of a CZ 807 from IDEAS 2016. Look what is written in the background.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @That Guy @Areesh


that is ARX200 and a Italian guy from Beretta is standing in front of him infact there is a video and pics of that table in the pinned thread.

Wait a minute that says ammo used 7.62x51 and that is the CZ booth!!! [ Hazrat @Zarvan ] ooooooh the rabbit hole goes very deep!! This will cause even more heart ache


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## TheDarkKnight

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Are you sure that is the ARX-200 ? 2nd or 3rd rifle (starting from SCAR) is a Minimi. I have seen a report debating it's presence among the weapons shown to former COAS.
> 
> BTW, I just saw the below pic of a CZ 807 from IDEAS 2016. Look what is written in the background.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @That Guy @Areesh


Well the cz that guy is holding is 807 in 7.62x39 for sure, based on the curved mag. The chart does say the ammo is 7.62x51 but doesnt specify the gun ... could be scar h, arx200 or g3 or even your speculated bren 2 in 7.62x51. Cant say anything for sure ... to me it looks like the rifle name should be written on the chart, but gun seems to be in the way. 
Anyone one knows this person? please ask him if there is a 7.62x51 version under trial for bren if possible. I doubt it is under trial with PA right now even if it exists in CZ's labs.

Regards


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## Zarvan

TheDarkKnight said:


> Well the cz that guy is holding is 807 in 7.62x39 for sure, based on the curved mag. The chart does say the ammo is 7.62x51 but doesnt specify the gun ... could be scar h, arx200 or g3 or even your speculated bren 2 in 7.62x51. Cant say anything for sure ... to me it looks like the rifle name should be written on the chart, but gun seems to be in the way.
> Anyone one knows this person? please ask him if there is a 7.62x51 version under trial for bren if possible. I doubt it is under trial with PA right now even if it exists in CZ's labs.
> 
> Regards


I haven't heard of any 7.62 X 51 being in trials. Still waiting to see which Rifle is selected to replace G3


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## hacker J

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> CZ 807 BREN has emerged as the finalist in Pakistan Army Service rifle trials to replace 7.62×39mm Chinese Type 56 rifles, ARMÁDNÍ NOVINY reported quoting Director of Military weapons in České zbrojovce, Martin Šanda. Special version CZ 807 BREN (Soviet 7.62×39mm) was offered to the Pakistan Army.
> _
> "Czech arms industry has successfully participated in the tender for the rearmament of the Pakistani army with it's CZ 807. Of the original eight candidates which met the extremely rigorous demands of the Pakistani army, there were only three finalists, including the CZ 807. For an idea of the scope of testing, I can say that the tests were conducted throughout 2016, in all weather conditions from the Himalayan glaciers, where the temperature dropped below -40° C up to the jungle or desert, where they climbed to the contrary, we recorded + 54° C, "_ commented Martin Šanda, on the Pakistani tender.
> 
> _"Apart from these tests conducted directly by users of the combat units and weapons, they were tested in laboratory "under applicable methodologies". CZ 807 was evaluated as the best in the context of user tests, for example, but also as the most accurate direct comparison of standardized absolute world elite. Additionally, the testing was attended throughout by CZ representatives who collected valuable data for further development of service weapons. Some of them spent most of the year in Pakistan in difficult conditions," _ Šanda added.




Hi,
I have heard and read about CZ 805 and CZ 806, is CZ 807 similar to CZ 805A(as specification tell developed in 2005-6) or is it upgraded version of CZ805 ?? If yes than what are the differences ? it is quite amazing the 805

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## Path-Finder

@Suff Shikan did you see this chart at the CZ booth? 






it is the CZ booth as the BREN is on the table if the chart was a mistake i.e they were meant to write 7.62 X 39 but wrote X51. That could have been understood.* BUT* in brackets it says 0.308 Win which is another term for 7.62 X 51 *and* it is 168 grain bullet!!!

Hazrat @Zarvan @TheOccupiedKashmir

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## my name is nobody

BTW, I just saw the below pic of a CZ 807 from IDEAS 2016. Look what is written in the background. 






Rifle in front was 7,62x39 variant. But the target was CZ BREN in 7,62x51. Actual rifle was not publicly presented inside the CZ booth. If I remember correctly they presented that target because it was accuracy result after endurance test 10,000rds in actual rifle trials in which CZ is participating in both calibers.

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## Path-Finder

my name is nobody said:


> BTW, I just saw the below pic of a CZ 807 from IDEAS 2016. Look what is written in the background.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rifle in front was 7,62x39 variant. But the target was CZ BREN in 7,62x51. Actual rifle was not publicly presented inside the CZ booth. If I remember correctly they presented that target because it was accuracy result after endurance test 10,000rds in actual rifle trials in which CZ is participating in both calibers.


can you tag Hazrat @Zarvan in your post

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## Gryphon

TheDarkKnight said:


> The chart does say the ammo is 7.62x51 but doesnt specify the gun ... could be scar h, arx200 or g3 or even your speculated bren 2 in 7.62x51.



I don't expect to see a chart related to FN or Beretta at a CZ booth. CZ 806 BREN 2 is available in x51 according to the CZ official cited on page 1. The chart is enough to hint that a x51 will (or already has been) offered to PA.

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## Areesh

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> I don't expect to see a chart related to FN or Beretta at a CZ booth. CZ 806 BREN 2 is available in x51 according to the CZ official cited on page 1. The chart is enough to hint that a x51 will (or already has been) offered to PA.



It is a matter of common sense. Obviously the chart talks about x51 in Bren 2 and not other guns by other manufacturers.


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## Gryphon

Path-Finder said:


> that is ARX200 and a Italian guy from Beretta is standing in front of him infact there is a video and pics of that table in the pinned thread.
> 
> Wait a minute that says ammo used 7.62x51 and that is the CZ booth!!! [ Hazrat @Zarvan ] ooooooh the rabbit hole goes very deep!! This will cause even more heart ache



The first rifle is SCAR, second is ARX-200. Can you name the third one ? The fourth one I assume is CZ 807.

And, as I said earlier, FN and Beretta were out of the race the day LoU was signed with CZ.



Path-Finder said:


> it is the CZ booth as the BREN is on the table if the chart was a mistake i.e they were meant to write 7.62 X 39 but wrote X51. That could have been understood.* BUT* in brackets it says 0.308 Win which is another term for 7.62 X 51 *and* it is 168 grain bullet!!!
> 
> @TheOccupiedKashmir



Look behind the magazine. 07 is visible. I conclude the rifle is a x39 CZ 807 (with curved magazine) but the lines written on the chart are related to x51 CZ 806 BREN 2 or CZ 807.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> In limited numbers and probably the 5.56 mm variant.


Not really that's the main MG for SSW,SSGN and even SSG (who although use even captured PK MGs).

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## Gryphon

Path-Finder said:


> can you tag Hazrat @Zarvan in your post



It is getting very painful for SCAR fanboys. They are indeed getting a lot of scars somewhere.

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## Path-Finder

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> The first rifle is SCAR, second is ARX-200. Can you name the third one ? The fourth one I assume is CZ 807.
> 
> And, as I said earlier, FN and Beretta were out of the race the day LoU was signed with CZ.
> 
> 
> 
> Look behind the magazine. 07 is visible. I conclude the rifle is a x39 CZ 807 (with curved magazine) but the lines written on the chart are related to x51 CZ 806 BREN 2 or CZ 807.


Its Zastava M77 I had high quality pics but not anymore or Gen Asim Bajwa's twitter account will have the pics. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/709716958481162240
Now that things are becoming clear and the likelihood of a CZ BREN in x51 is more conscious. one has to say, Damn FN SCAR is gone! Can we celebrate the loss  Hazrat @Zarvan will need a ambulance

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## Talwar e Pakistan

khanasifm said:


> http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/06/22/cz-bren-2-finally-makes-debut-international-market/
> A good bet for the second customer is previously-mentioned Pakistan, to whom the 806 Bren 2 offers compatibility with *7.62x39mm* ammunition in a very modern platform. The 806 Bren 2 may also be set to compete in the French competition to select a new rifle to replace the aging FAMAS.
> 
> http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...cz-806-bren-2-improved-modular-assault-rifle/
> 
> The CZ 806 Bren 2 introduced a number of amendments requested by the soldiers using weapons. First of all _slimmed down_ carbine, mainly by removing excess material with aluminum castle chambers, reducing its mass by 0.5 kg. For comparison, the mass of subkarabinka CZ 805 Bren 1 A2 280 mm barrel is 3.39 / 4.10 kg (without iron sights and magazine / with a full magazine and sling), while his counterpart CZ 806 Bren 2 A2 of the same length barrel – only *2.76 / 2.99 kilograms.*
> 
> http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/01/13/czech-army-buys-first-cz-806-bren-2-rifles/
> 
> The first contract, worth CZK417 million (*USD16.6 million)*, is for the delivery of *2,600 *CZ 806 Bren 2 rifles, *800* CZ 805 G1 underbarrel grenade launchers, *2,600 *Meopta ZD-Dot red dot sights, *1,600 *Meopta DV-Mag3 3x magnifiers, *1,450* Meopta NV-Mag3 night vision sights, *500 *DBAL-A2 laser pointer/illuminator, and *spare parts.
> 
> Long and Short barrels
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *


So it would cost like 3 Billion to procure 500,000 rifles...?


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## Gryphon

From miltechmag.com article (9 September 2016) :

*Surely one of the largest small arms contracts to be awarded in the foreseeable future, the Pakistani competition includes a requirement for technology transfer and licence manufacture – a scenario Jakub Sondel (Head of Sports and Display Team) asserts lies at the heart of CZ’s continuing development strategy. “The results to date have been very encouraging and we have every reason to believe we are a very strong contender for this order,” he said.*

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## That Guy

Technogaianist said:


> Eh, I look at it as a usage issue. It's big and cumbersome making it great as a fixed gun emplacement or ship self defense weapon, but poor for maneuver warfare or supporting fast moving infantry. As such you typically see it used in such a manner.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No one's going around firing the damn thing from the hip like a 30 cal Stinger.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For supporting infantry assaults, lighter weapons are always going to be preferred.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The gun is fine. How it's being used needs to be reexamined and a shift in tactical usage reassessed.
> 
> That said for infantry support I whole heartedly support a shift towards a lighter more portable weapon like the FN Minimi.


The thing is, every role I can see for it, there are just better options for Pakistan. How much longer can Pakistan continue to use the MG3, before it becomes completely obsolete?

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

That Guy said:


> The thing is, every role I can see for it, there are just better options for Pakistan. How much longer can Pakistan continue to use the MG3, before it becomes completely obsolete?


I think POF should be tasked to develop a new LMG - independently or with a partner. Like the LSR, an LMG is for specific or specialized scenarios, and as such, it does not have the urgent priority or mass adoption scale of standard-issue assault rifles or battle rifles. In turn, POF has space to design a system and gradually improve it, as it is doing with the LSR.

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## Zarvan

I am waiting for a answer from some guy until he answers I am not sure if SCAR is out because we still have to replace G3 and sorry CZ 807 is not replacing G3 and there is no proof that 7.62 X 51 of BREN exists. So still as far as I think it's either FN SCAR H or Berreta ARX 200 which would replace G3 not BREN. Still I have a asked a guy a question waiting for his reply


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## LegitimateIdiot

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> So it would cost like 3 Billion to procure 500,000 rifles...?


that I very unlikely maybe you miscalculated


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> I am waiting for a answer from some guy until he answers I am not sure if SCAR is out because we still have to replace G3 and sorry CZ 807 is not replacing G3 and there is no proof that 7.62 X 51 of BREN exists. So still as far as I think it's either FN SCAR H or Berreta ARX 200 which would replace G3 not BREN. Still I have a asked a guy a question waiting for his reply


Hazrat @Zarvan read this chart!! it is on a CZ booth, now if a CZ in x51 is made public then where do you stand?


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat @Zarvan read this chart!! it is on a CZ booth, now if a CZ in x51 is made public then where do you stand?


I have but I am waiting for my guy reply until he tells me SCAR and Berreta are out I am not going to believe anything. Because he few days back said if BREN comes will only replace Type 56 not G3 for G3 Berreta and SCAR are being negotiated not BREN.


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## TheDarkKnight

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> I don't expect to see a chart related to FN or Beretta at a CZ booth. CZ 806 BREN 2 is available in x51 according to the CZ official cited on page 1. The chart is enough to hint that a x51 will (or already has been) offered to PA.



I didnt know this was claimed to be from a booth at IDEAS. Are we sure this was taken at a CZ booth at IDEAS? I mean why waste expensive marketing space on a chart from testing? And then why show only a chart but not the name or picture of the rifle whose chart is on display?

Too little information is available to draw the conclusion that this chart is from a 7.62x51 caliber Bren variant. It may very well be from another cz rifle that can fire 7.62x51 such as:
Cz-750-s1-m1

Regards


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## Suff Shikan

Path-Finder said:


> @Suff Shikan did you see this chart at the CZ booth?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> it is the CZ booth as the BREN is on the table if the chart was a mistake i.e they were meant to write 7.62 X 39 but wrote X51. That could have been understood.* BUT* in brackets it says 0.308 Win which is another term for 7.62 X 51 *and* it is 168 grain bullet!!!
> 
> Hazrat @Zarvan @TheOccupiedKashmir



I visited the stall, but did not noticed the written stuff

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## Sulman Badshah

Zarvan said:


> Little sad obviously but not that sad because the rifles which were tested I hated AK-103 and Serbian Gun the most and they are out but I would say that SCAR have more chances to come in 7.62 X 51 category but I am also hoping to see more optics coming with new Assault Rifles.


We've already ordered thermal scopes from raytheon

Both AK103 and Serbian M21 are badass rifles ...


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## Wolfhound

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Doubt that.
> 
> MG3 is an excellent machine gun.


The same can be said about other legacy weapons but they are also considered obsolete. The same argument was once used for the G3 and it is also being replaced. 



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Danes in Afghanistan
> 
> View attachment 359635
> 
> 
> Estonians in A'Stan;
> 
> View attachment 359636
> 
> 
> View attachment 359637
> 
> 
> Germans;
> 
> View attachment 359638
> 
> 
> 
> Belgian SF ;
> 
> View attachment 359640
> 
> 
> 
> Pak Army;
> 
> View attachment 359639
> 
> 
> MG3 upgrade
> 
> View attachment 359641
> 
> 
> 
> *
> Pak Army*
> 
> 
> View attachment 359642


Alot of these countries have already moved on excluding the Danish and Estonians, both of which are not considered top tier or very modern army's. The German are moving on with the Hk121 and the Belgians have moved on to the Fn minimi since a long time. Plus the MG3 upgrade is only available from a select American manufacturers so it should be out of the question.


----------



## El Fuego

El Fuego said:


> The lower one is CZ BREN in 7,62x51 with Meopta sight


----------



## CriticalThought

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I think POF should be tasked to develop a new LMG - independently or with a partner. Like the LSR, an LMG is for specific or specialized scenarios, and as such, it does not have the urgent priority or mass adoption scale of standard-issue assault rifles or battle rifles. In turn, POF has space to design a system and gradually improve it, as it is doing with the LSR.



Sir, correct me if I am wrong, but you need the ability to simply lay suppressing fire at the section level. For that you need basically an ammo cruncher that forces the enemy to keep its head low. Or you need to direct fire using tracers. As far as I can see, MG3 can be used for either. Problems (if any) with accuracy, recoil, heating etc. can be solved through improvements.


----------



## Invictus-Warrior

People here jumping here and there talking about SCAR
Im sure most of you guys haven't even held a 5.56 or a 7.62 round let alone fire one on the range
Do you guys have the slightest idea what it would cost to manufacture this rifle?
Where do you think the money's gonna come from?
Why can't we just stick with a smaller round and select the CZ as a standard rifle 
7.62×51? Thats a huge round used for DMRs & GPMGs these days
No matter how good you manufacturer a rifle with good muzzle break you still got recoil 
Not to mention the weight of the ammo to carry and the logistical problems 
So i guess we should stick with the CZ and use the money saved to induct decent sights like red dots and ACOGs for the new rifles 
Iron sights should only be used as backup sights
Some argue that the 7.62 SCAR will be used on the Eastern front!
Who fights conventional wars these days dude


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## PakGuns

Invictus-Warrior said:


> People here jumping here and there talking about SCAR
> Im sure most of you guys haven't even held a 5.56 or a 7.62 round let alone fire one on the range
> Do you guys have the slightest idea what it would cost to manufacture this rifle?
> Where do you think the money's gonna come from?
> Why can't we just stick with a smaller round and select the CZ as a standard rifle
> 7.62×51? Thats a huge round used for DMRs & GPMGs these days
> No matter how good you manufacturer a rifle with good muzzle break you still got recoil
> Not to mention the weight of the ammo to carry and the logistical problems
> So i guess we should stick with the CZ and use the money saved to induct decent sights like red dots and ACOGs for the new rifles
> Iron sights should only be used as backup sights
> Some argue that the 7.62 SCAR will be used on the Eastern front!
> Who fights conventional wars these days dude


With 7.62 x51 the recoil will be more in effect and can cause accuracy issues during rapid fire on multiple targets.. Speaking of 7.62 why wasn't ACR on offer or called for trials,??


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

Wolfhound said:


> The same can be said about other legacy weapons but they are also considered obsolete. The same argument was once used for the G3 and it is also being replaced.
> 
> 
> Alot of these countries have already moved on excluding the Danish and Estonians, both of which are not considered top tier or very modern army's. The German are moving on with the Hk121 and the Belgians have moved on to the Fn minimi since a long time. Plus the MG3 upgrade is only available from a select American manufacturers so it should be out of the question.


I'm sure Pak spends more money on troops (individually) than NATO members like Denmark,Estonia,Belgium or Germany,Turkey ...All of which STILL are using MG3!

As for the upgrades .. Not exactly rocket science which can't be find by POF which already has introduced one.

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## Gryphon

PA is not abandoning 7.62x51mm anytime soon. The G3/Type 56 replacement tender mentioned x51 and x39.



TheDarkKnight said:


> Too little information is available to draw the conclusion that this chart is from a 7.62x51 caliber Bren variant. It may very well be from another cz rifle that can fire 7.62x51 such as:
> Cz-750-s1-m1



Possible given that the chart mentions .308 Win.



Invictus-Warrior said:


> Some argue that the 7.62 SCAR will be used on the Eastern front!
> Who fights conventional wars these days dude

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## Zarvan

Invictus-Warrior said:


> People here jumping here and there talking about SCAR
> Im sure most of you guys haven't even held a 5.56 or a 7.62 round let alone fire one on the range
> Do you guys have the slightest idea what it would cost to manufacture this rifle?
> Where do you think the money's gonna come from?
> Why can't we just stick with a smaller round and select the CZ as a standard rifle
> 7.62×51? Thats a huge round used for DMRs & GPMGs these days
> No matter how good you manufacturer a rifle with good muzzle break you still got recoil
> Not to mention the weight of the ammo to carry and the logistical problems
> So i guess we should stick with the CZ and use the money saved to induct decent sights like red dots and ACOGs for the new rifles
> Iron sights should only be used as backup sights
> Some argue that the 7.62 SCAR will be used on the Eastern front!
> Who fights conventional wars these days dude



Everything was calculated before starting trials. Sir we knew about the costs. And I have checked with the friend BREN is not going to replace G3 it would be either SCAR or Berreta @Path-Finder


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## niaz

Debate of whether to use larger 7.62 x 51 round or smaller 5.56 x45 round has been going around in among the NATO forces for a long time along with the argument of semi-automatic versus fully automatic.

I admit that I have only fired bolt action rifles on the occasional deer shoot in Scotland because UK licensing laws don’t allow self-loading firearms for private use. Therefore I am only speaking with second hand references. However I had been member of the RAC club at Pell Mell for many years where I came across quite a few retired British Army & Navy Officers.

During the Falkland war, UK Military was using LIA1 SLR (FN FAL) semi-automatic rifle with the standard NATO 7.62 x 51 rounds. When I inquired as to why they did not use fully automatic version; it was explained to me that the semi-automatic setting is plenty fast and you have total control of the weapon; actual difference between emptying 20 round L1A1 rifle on semi-automatic or fully automatic mode being only about 4 seconds.

Additionally, on full automatic mode, large round of say 7.62 calibre tends the rifle muzzle to move upwards and therefore causes wastage of ammunition. Standard UK Army issue was ‘semi-automatic’ because of its accuracy and less wastage. However there is no denying that on short-range (less than 50 meters) and when ambushed by the enemy, automatic fire is needed. That is why most modern military rifles have built-in semi as well as fully auto option. In my view, both the 7.62 x 51 and 7.62 x 39 firing rifles would suffer from the same problem. Hence there is little to choose between the two calibres.

Understandably, for a soldier in the middle of a fire fight “not” running out of ammunition is extremely important. Disadvantage of being on full auto is that most soldiers don't aim; they just spray bullets all over the place and run out of ammunition sooner.

In addition to having lesser ‘kick’; smaller 5.56 calibre bullets have the big advantage of being lighter and therefore a soldier can carry more of them. In this case it is a choice between ensuring that the enemy is sufficiently incapacitated after being hit by a single bullet that he is not to able to fire back and being able to carry more ammo.

Even though I have firm belief that Pak Army ammo experts know best; I am glad that they are keeping the 7.62 round. Because I have seen the effects of a 7 mm bullet on the deer at the distance of 70 – 80 meters and I would go for a 7.62 round especially over the hilly terrain or on sandy flats.

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Everything was calculated before starting trials. Sir we knew about the costs. And I have checked with the friend BREN is not going to replace G3 it would be either SCAR or Berreta @Path-Finder


please name the source!!! your source said there was no x51 CZ but as it appears it may have been tested 






care to read the chart Hazrat @Zarvan

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## Thunder.Storm




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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> please name the source!!! your source said there was no x51 CZ but as it appears it may have been tested
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> care to read the chart Hazrat @Zarvan


Contact me on twitter I would tell you who my source is


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## Awan68

T


TheNoob said:


> wow, times have changed in just 3 years.....
> 
> but i doubt we have the ones with good imaging quality, such as those on helicopters and planes used from miles away.


this is about all u gotta get out of him, nice try...


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## TheNoob

Awan68 said:


> T
> 
> this is about all u gotta get out of him, nice try...



What about?

My interest shifted from defence politics to something else as I grew up.
So obviously lack of knowledge on my part regards to new things will be there


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## Awan68

Path-Finder said:


> Not true Night vision and Thermal is available at all necessary units & platoon level depending on the operational requirements!


DOnt indulgle him bufto


lastofthepatriots said:


> I will join TTP If Scar is not given to @Zarvan bhai.[/too late lol thier glory days are over try isis lol


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## razgriz19

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> Honestly, Pakistani modified Type-56 were very effective, reliable and not costly - I don't see why we have to replace them.




F-16s are also good, nimble and reliable, but in the end it's an older platform and has served its time even though it fires the same weapons as F-22!


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## Awan68

Germ


Zarvan said:


> Germany Government is creating lot of problems for HK and other companies when they sell weapons to Muslim countries that is why they were avoided


 Fyi germany just handed over a couple of subs to egypt..


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## Path-Finder

Awan68 said:


> DOnt indulgle him bufto


not indulging as such but we all want to know what rifle will be selected for G3 replacement!



Zarvan said:


> Contact me on twitter I would tell you who my source is


done Hazrat @Zarvan

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## Gryphon

Path-Finder said:


> done Hazrat @Zarvan



These are imaginary sources. Dreams to be precise !!

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## Zarvan

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> These are imaginary sources. Dreams to be precise !!


No they are not imaginary in fact one of the source is MOD of this forum and he has clearly stated that BREN is not competing to replace G3 for G3 replacement Rifles are SCAR H and Berreta ARX 200

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## Path-Finder

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> These are imaginary sources. Dreams to be precise !!


just seeing the validity of source in a bid to be open minded.


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## Gryphon

*Argentina's Fabricas Militares licensed to manufacture Beretta ARX-200, PX4 weapons*

*Gabriel Porfilio, Orlando* - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
12 December 2016

Argentina's Fabricas Militares has signed an agreement with Italian weapon manufacturer Beretta to locally produce the ARX-200 automatic rifle and the PX4 pistol, Argentine Defence Ministry Secretary of Science, Technology, and Production Hector Lostri announced on 9 December.

The local company is in the process of being certified by its Italian counterpart to start production. It is expected that these weapons will primarily be manufactured to replace the ageing FAL and Browning GP-35s that were also locally produced decades ago.

To read the full article, Client Login
(103 of 166 words)

Argentina's Fabricas Militares licensed to manufacture Beretta ARX-200, PX4 weapons | IHS Jane's 360

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## Rafi

Bren not only have a terrific product, but their willingness to compromise on price and production has given them the edge.

FN were the leaders but price and excessive "rule" on licence production messed them up. 

Bren if they win the tender are also promising long term relationship in upgrades and new systems.

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## Path-Finder

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> *Argentina's Fabricas Militares licensed to manufacture Beretta ARX-200, PX4 weapons*
> 
> *Gabriel Porfilio, Orlando* - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
> 12 December 2016
> 
> Argentina's Fabricas Militares has signed an agreement with Italian weapon manufacturer Beretta to locally produce the ARX-200 automatic rifle and the PX4 pistol, Argentine Defence Ministry Secretary of Science, Technology, and Production Hector Lostri announced on 9 December.
> 
> The local company is in the process of being certified by its Italian counterpart to start production. It is expected that these weapons will primarily be manufactured to replace the ageing FAL and Browning GP-35s that were also locally produced decades ago.
> 
> To read the full article, Client Login
> (103 of 166 words)
> 
> Argentina's Fabricas Militares licensed to manufacture Beretta ARX-200, PX4 weapons | IHS Jane's 360


Wicked x *∞*. more nails in da coffin for FN Herstal  Hazrat @Zarvan 



Rafi said:


> Bren not only have a terrific product, but their willingness to compromise on price and production has given them the edge.
> 
> FN were the leaders but price and excessive "rule" on licence production messed them up.
> 
> Bren if they win the tender are also promising long term relationship in upgrades and new systems.


 one question can we start celebrating the defeat of FN? Argentina can produce it then we can produce ARX200 as well!

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## El Fuego



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## Wolfhound

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> I'm sure Pak spends more money on troops (individually) than NATO members like Denmark,Estonia,Belgium or Germany,Turkey ...All of which STILL are using MG3!
> 
> As for the upgrades .. Not exactly rocket science which can't be find by POF which already has introduced one.


Of course some of them are still using the MG3, usually things such as small arms induction take years to complete don't they? Well i can agree about a local MG3 upgrade by POF but looking at its track history namely the G3M upgrade, it wont reduce weight much as POF has very little experience with polymer manufacturing, so we shouldn't hope for much from it.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Wolfhound said:


> Of course some of them are still using the MG3, usually things such as small arms induction take years to complete don't they? Well i can agree about a local MG3 upgrade by POF but looking at its track history namely the G3M upgrade, it wont reduce weight much as POF has very little experience with polymer manufacturing, so we shouldn't hope for much from it.



Don't fix or change it if it's not broke .... And buying minis for almost 1 million man military isn't really cheap... It would cost as much if not more than assault/battle rifles...

MG3 is doing fine and there are no plans to change it... Not even close it will continue to serve till some time.


As for upgrades... Not really POF actually is producing several G3 variants ... G3M,G3S etc .. With reduced recoil,reduced length and weight...

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## S.U.R.B.

Off topic...
Now that the MG3 has hijacked this thread, who can resist that fire power.






That shoulder must have required a massage afterwards due to that killer Buttstock.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

S.U.R.B. said:


> Off topic...
> Now that the MG3 has hijacked this thread, who can resist that fire power.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That shoulder must have required a massage afterwards due to that killer Buttstock.



Good reason MG3 is given to "tagray larkay".

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## S.U.R.B.

The assault category (7.62×51mm) can wait.Our current Urban warfare theater required an urgent attention especially for the types of missions PA has to undertake or the challenges they are facing currently.CZ is a very good choice for that, plus it's economical in the group.A major upgrade.There are already enough options available at home for the sniping activity as well.Nothing stops here, if the 807 could not do well with the heavy caliber ,the CZ guys can take all the time they need for a DMR in future to manufacture an assault variant.Military is not running out of time.

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Wicked x *∞*. more nails in da coffin for FN Herstal  Hazrat @Zarvan
> 
> 
> one question can we start celebrating the defeat of FN? Argentina can produce it then we can produce ARX200 as well!


FN is in for replacement for G3. BREN is not in the game for G3 replacement. No BREN 7.62 X 51 version exists. For G3 replacement talks are taking place with SCAR and Berreta How many times I have to tell you that.



S.U.R.B. said:


> The assault category (7.62×51mm) can wait.Our current Urban warfare theater required an urgent attention especially for the types of missions PA has to undertake or the challenges they are facing currently.CZ is a very good choice for that, plus it's economical in the group.A major upgrade.There are already enough options available at home for the sniping activity as well.Nothing stops here, if the 807 could not do well with the heavy caliber ,the CZ guys can take all the time they need for a DMR in future to manufacture an assault variant.Military is not running out of time.


IT can't wait we have our eastern enemy is also now increasing tensions and attacking us on daily bases so now we have to move fast and get 7.62 x 51 now because it future price can increase further.


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## Awan68

Path-Finder said:


> not indulging as such but we all want to know what rifle will be selected for G3 replacement!
> 
> 
> done Hazrat @Zarvan[/QUOTE





Zarvan said:


> FN is in for replacement for G3. BREN is not in the game for G3 replacement. No BREN 7.62 X 51 version exists. For G3 replacement talks are taking place with SCAR and Berreta How many times I have to tell you that.
> 
> 
> IT can't wait we have our eastern enemy is also now increasing tensions and attacking us on daily bases so now we have to move fast and get 7.62 x 51 now because it future price can increase further.


Those attacks etc were political, india doesnt have the guts to attack pakistan mark my words, they will do thier utmost best to make us strike the first blow, with trump in office this becomes even more of a fantasy as he is bent on minimizing Us badmashi...


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## Zarvan



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## TheDarkKnight

Zarvan said:


> FN is in for replacement for G3. BREN is not in the game for G3 replacement. No BREN 7.62 X 51 version exists. For G3 replacement talks are taking place with SCAR and Berreta How many times I have to tell you that.
> 
> 
> IT can't wait we have our eastern enemy is also now increasing tensions and attacking us on daily bases so now we have to move fast and get 7.62 x 51 now because it future price can increase further.


Honestly if we have to invest on the defenses for eastern side, the money in the short-mid term would be better spent on: artillery (esp SP howitzers; I think PA is evaluating a serbian and south african platform), APCs/IFVs (needed for WOT as well), tanks, Air defense & 4th/5th gen aircraft; oh and lets not forget Navy as well 

In the LOC sector, where most of skirmishes are taking place these days, I would recommend upgrades for light artillery (especially after IA going for M777), tactical drones and surveillance upgrades (to counter any so called Sir gi Kal! strikes), attack & transport helicopters (useful for WOT as well).

If we want to worry about soldier equipment on LOC my order would then be: NVGs, better sights, sniper rifles, heavy support weapons (such as missile launchers, ATGMs etc). I dont know if G3 is extensively used on LOC? I think AK and Type 56 are mainly used, so the current Bren acquisition would be useful on the LOC front if my assumption is correct.

I think PAs plan is to replace G3 in the next decade, so a couple additional years to work with CZ to develop a new 7.62X51 variant of Bren shouldnt hurt that much. Know the PA, and especially Pakistani mentallity, hadion ki khaal tak udher daiti hai hamari koom ; refer F7s, mirages, old navy frigates still in use for decades after they normally should be replaced.




Zarvan said:


>



Bhai kiyamat to nahi aa rahi? No SCAR pic??
Regards

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## Zarvan

TheDarkKnight said:


> Honestly if we have to invest on the defenses for eastern side, the money in the short-mid term would be better spent on: artillery (esp SP howitzers; I think PA is evaluating a serbian and south african platform), APCs/IFVs (needed for WOT as well), tanks, Air defense & 4th/5th gen aircraft; oh and lets not forget Navy as well
> 
> In the LOC sector, where most of skirmishes are taking place these days, I would recommend upgrades for light artillery (especially after IA going for M777), tactical drones and surveillance upgrades (to counter any so called Sir gi Kal! strikes), attack & transport helicopters (useful for WOT as well).
> 
> If we want to worry about soldier equipment on LOC my order would then be: NVGs, better sights, sniper rifles, heavy support weapons (such as missile launchers, ATGMs etc). I dont know if G3 is extensively used on LOC? I think AK and Type 56 are mainly used, so the current Bren acquisition would be useful on the LOC front if my assumption is correct.
> 
> I think PAs plan is to replace G3 in the next decade, so a couple additional years to work with CZ to develop a new 7.62X51 variant of Bren shouldnt hurt that much. Know the PA, and especially Pakistani mentallity, hadion ki khaal tak udher daiti hai hamari koom ; refer F7s, mirages, old navy frigates still in use for decades after they normally should be replaced.
> 
> Regards



If we would select a rifle today and start its production in next one year than and only than we would manage to replace all G3 in next one decade so there is no time to wait for 7.62 X 51 version of BREN to come up nobody knows How long will it take and no idea if it would meet our standards or not. Just like we didn't waited for SCAR to fully develop its 7.62 X 39 version. I am pretty sure that SCAR H or Berreta ARX 200 one of them would come for G3 replacement and we may hear something about it in next 1 or 2 months. @TheDarkKnight


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## Samee Ulhaq

its a cannon..


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## Ghazwa e Hind

dsr478 said:


> What about that Turkish rifle? There was a bunch of news about that recently.


That was an unofficial news with unreliable sources.

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## niaz

TheDarkKnight said:


> Honestly if we have to invest on the defenses for eastern side, the money in the short-mid term would be better spent on: artillery (esp SP howitzers; I think PA is evaluating a serbian and south african platform), APCs/IFVs (needed for WOT as well), tanks, Air defense & 4th/5th gen aircraft; oh and lets not forget Navy as well
> 
> In the LOC sector, where most of skirmishes are taking place these days, I would recommend upgrades for light artillery (especially after IA going for M777), tactical drones and surveillance upgrades (to counter any so called Sir gi Kal! strikes), attack & transport helicopters (useful for WOT as well).
> 
> If we want to worry about soldier equipment on LOC my order would then be: NVGs, better sights, sniper rifles, heavy support weapons (such as missile launchers, ATGMs etc). I dont know if G3 is extensively used on LOC? I think AK and Type 56 are mainly used, so the current Bren acquisition would be useful on the LOC front if my assumption is correct.
> 
> I think PAs plan is to replace G3 in the next decade, so a couple additional years to work with CZ to develop a new 7.62X51 variant of Bren shouldnt hurt that much. Know the PA, and especially Pakistani mentallity, hadion ki khaal tak udher daiti hai hamari koom ; refer F7s, mirages, old navy frigates still in use for decades after they normally should be replaced.
> 
> (especially light ones after IA going for M777)
> 
> 
> 
> Bhai kiyamat to nahi aa rahi? No SCAR pic??
> Regards



Most of the assault rifles of the last 50 years such as HKG3,G38 & 416, AK-47/ 74 / 103, AR-16/18, M- 14/M16, Steyr Aug, Galil, SIG 550, HK416, FN FAL and FN Scar are not that much better than each other. Of course newer rifles are lighter & with less kick, one can carry more of the new 0.556 less lethal round but can one honestly say that a soldier carrying FN Scar will be victor against the enemy carrying G-3 or Galil or even the ubiquitous AK-47.

The answer is surely ‘No’ as there are too many variables involved in here. No one rifle or a specific type of ammo can be said to be superior with certainty

Let’s us examine the experience of real combat situations. During the long Vietnam war, Vietcong guerrilla equipped largely with the AK-47 (Chinese type 56) assault rifle successfully fought with US troops carrying M-14 & M-16. Same thing happened in Somalia and now happening in Afghanistan. In the Falklands, both the British as well as Argentinian infantry were using FN FAL rifle. You can’t really say that success of Pak Army in the Zarbe Azb is due to the G-3 being superior to Taliban’s Kalashnikovs.

The above long winded preamble is not meant to belittle the need for replacement of the aging G3 rifle. Every Pakistani would like their soldiers to have the best assault rifle in the world. My point is simply to stress that Hon TheDarkKnight is correct is his assertion the limited resources available to Pak Army may provide more bang for the buck if other urgently needed equipment such artillery is given priority.

Finally, whichever way one looks at it; it appears that small arms, especially the assault rifle, design reached its peak during the decades of cold war era and therefore it is not easy to choose one over the other. Besides, a new assault rifle will be in service for the next 30 to 40 years and I am glad the Pak Army experts are taking their time to make up their mind.

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## CriticalThought

niaz said:


> Most of the assault rifles of the last 50 years such as HKG3,G38 & 416, AK-47/ 74 / 103, AR-16/18, M- 14/M16, Steyr Aug, Galil, SIG 550, HK416, FN FAL and FN Scar are not that much better than each other. Of course newer rifles are lighter & with less kick, one can carry more of the new 0.556 less lethal round but can one honestly say that a soldier carrying FN Scar will be victor against the enemy carrying G-3 or Galil or even the ubiquitous AK-47.
> 
> The answer is surely ‘No’ as there are too many variables involved in here. No one rifle or a specific type of ammo can be said to be superior with certainty
> 
> Let’s us examine the experience of real combat situations. During the long Vietnam war, Vietcong guerrilla equipped largely with the AK-47 (Chinese type 56) assault rifle successfully fought with US troops carrying M-14 & M-16. Same thing happened in Somalia and now happening in Afghanistan. In the Falklands, both the British as well as Argentinian infantry were using FN FAL rifle. You can’t really say that success of Pak Army in the Zarbe Azb is due to the G-3 being superior to Taliban’s Kalashnikovs.
> 
> The above long winded preamble is not meant to belittle the need for replacement of the aging G3 rifle. Every Pakistani would like their soldiers to have the best assault rifle in the world. My point is simply to stress that Hon TheDarkKnight is correct is his assertion the limited resources available to Pak Army may provide more bang for the buck if other urgently needed equipment such artillery is given priority.
> 
> Finally, whichever way one looks at it; it appears that small arms, especially the assault rifle, design reached its peak during the decades of cold war era and therefore it is not easy to choose one over the other. Besides, a new assault rifle will be in service for the next 30 to 40 years and I am glad the Pak Army experts are taking their time to make up their mind.



The most interesting question is whether PA will replace all or a significant number of G3s with another x51 calibre rifle or shift towards x39 being the mainstay.


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## JohnEurope

Hello guys.
Some info about the CZ 807 BREN for the Pakistan.
The CZ 807 BREN *IS* also already available in 7.62 X 51. The CZ in this calibre already development battle rifle BREN (let´s say G3 for 21. century) and DMR (Designated Marksman Rifle) BREN (let´s say SVD Dragunov for 21. century). Body is same as CZ 807 BREN, but with longer and more massive barrels, and more massive forearm. So you don´t need extra training for migration from CZ 807 BREN to "battle BREN" / or DMR Bren

The BREN is hole family of the small arms in three different calibres 5,56x45, 7,62x39 an 7,62x51, and with barrels from 8" to 16 ". Also you can use several buttstock, also "M4 style".

Guy, who stay behind project CZ 807 BREN, is ex-operator from czech special forces with experience from combat zones. So his experiences from combat zones (Afghanistan) are reflected to the weapon.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

JohnEurope said:


> Hello guys.
> Some info about the CZ 807 BREN for the Pakistan.
> The CZ 807 BREN *IS* also already available in 7.62 X 51. The CZ in this calibre already development battle rifle BREN (let´s say G3 for 21. century) and DMR (Designated Marksman Rifle) BREN (let´s say SVD Dragunov for 21. century). Body is same as CZ 807 BREN, but with longer and more massive barrels, and more massive forearm. So you don´t need extra training for migration from CZ 807 BREN to "battle BREN" / or DMR Bren
> 
> The CZ 807 BREN is hole family of the small arms in three different calibres 5,56x45, 7,62x39 an 7,62x51, and with barrels from 8" to 16 ". Also you can use several buttstock, also "M4 style".
> 
> Guy, who stay behind project CZ 807 BREN, is ex-operator from czech special forces with experience from combat zones. So his experiences from combat zones (Afghanistan) are reflected to the weapon.


Thank you for sharing! Out of curiosity, would you have access to any (preferably in English but we can use Google Translate) interviews with CZ officials on the BREN? Not specifically the BREN 7.62x51 (thought that'd be nice) but as a whole? We don't have access to a lot of the details, but I'm guessing there are Czech forums and sites where this is discussed. Thanks!

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## Gryphon

Meanwhile,

A Shibli Electronics official has told @TheOccupiedKashmir that it's TARSIER long range thermal weapon sight is currently being trialed by Pakistan Army and after this phase will enter serial production in 2017 with complete manufacturing at Shibli Factory, Islamabad.

He added that SKUA LR thermal binocular has 'cleared the user trials' and will also enter serial production next year.

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## Tipu7

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Meanwhile,
> 
> A Shibli Electronics official has told @TheOccupiedKashmir that it's TARSIER long range thermal weapon sight is currently being trialed by Pakistan Army and after this phase will enter serial production in 2017 with complete manufacturing at Shibli Factory, Islamabad.
> 
> He added that SKUA LR thermal binocular has 'cleared the user trials' and will also enter serial production next year.



@Sulman Badshah @Zarvan


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## JohnEurope

Bilal Khan: I can offer only articles in czech (sorry for broken link, I have no permission yet to create the active links)
_utocna-puska-cz-bren-2-novy-pristup-nove-mysleni _- In this article you can find many citation from Martin Šanda, the head of project BREN and ex-operator of the czech special forces.
I think, in the AN (and *discussion bellow article*) you find the most relevant ant newest information about BREN rifles.

But, if you send a request to the press centre of CZ, I´m pretty sure, you get respond.

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## Zarvan

JohnEurope said:


> Hello guys.
> Some info about the CZ 807 BREN for the Pakistan.
> The CZ 807 BREN *IS* also already available in 7.62 X 51. The CZ in this calibre already development battle rifle BREN (let´s say G3 for 21. century) and DMR (Designated Marksman Rifle) BREN (let´s say SVD Dragunov for 21. century). Body is same as CZ 807 BREN, but with longer and more massive barrels, and more massive forearm. So you don´t need extra training for migration from CZ 807 BREN to "battle BREN" / or DMR Bren
> 
> The BREN is hole family of the small arms in three different calibres 5,56x45, 7,62x39 an 7,62x51, and with barrels from 8" to 16 ". Also you can use several buttstock, also "M4 style".
> 
> Guy, who stay behind project CZ 807 BREN, is ex-operator from czech special forces with experience from combat zones. So his experiences from combat zones (Afghanistan) are reflected to the weapon.



@Horus Do you have anything to add ? By the way good to know we are testing latest optics and Pakistan needs them. In fact each soldier should have latest optics issued to him also night vision optics by the way Turkish comapny also makes good optics


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## Manticore

http://www.armadninoviny.cz/utocna-puska-cz-bren-2-pro-pakistanskou-armadu3f.html
http://www.armadninoviny.cz/otazky-a-odpovedi-k-pusce-cz-805-bren.html
http://www.armadninoviny.cz/cz-806-bren-nova-utocna-puska-z-ceske-republiky.html?stranka=4
http://www.armadninoviny.cz/cz-bren-2-pro-armadu-cr-spokojenost-nebo-trpky-usmev3f.html?stranka=2

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## Zarvan

Manticore said:


> http://www.armadninoviny.cz/utocna-puska-cz-bren-2-pro-pakistanskou-armadu3f.html
> http://www.armadninoviny.cz/otazky-a-odpovedi-k-pusce-cz-805-bren.html
> http://www.armadninoviny.cz/cz-806-bren-nova-utocna-puska-z-ceske-republiky.html?stranka=4
> http://www.armadninoviny.cz/cz-bren-2-pro-armadu-cr-spokojenost-nebo-trpky-usmev3f.html?stranka=2


Sir these links are way old and they don't clarify anything.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Meanwhile,
> 
> A Shibli Electronics official has told @TheOccupiedKashmir that it's TARSIER long range thermal weapon sight is currently being trialed by Pakistan Army and after this phase will enter serial production in 2017 with complete manufacturing at Shibli Factory, Islamabad.
> 
> He added that SKUA LR thermal binocular has 'cleared the user trials' and will also enter serial production next year.


Shibli ought to consider getting into the reflexive sights/red-dot sight business.

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## MystryMan

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> From miltechmag.com article (9 September 2016) :
> 
> Surely one of the largest small arms contracts to be awarded in the foreseeable future, the Pakistani competition includes a requirement for technology transfer and licence manufacture – a scenario Jakub Sondel (Head of Sports and Display Team) asserts lies at the heart of CZ’s continuing development strategy. “*The results to date have been very encouraging and we have every reason to believe we are a very strong contender for this order*,” he said*.*



Since the article is from early September and it mentions CZ as a strong contender. So has the status changed from *contender* to a *winner* as of now?

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## Zarvan

MystryMan said:


> Since the article is from early September and it mentions CZ as a strong contender. So has the status changed from *contender* to a *winner* as of now?


Yes that is major issue these are also old articles and doesn't clear anything. The thing I want to get clarified is that whether 7.62 x 51 version of BREN exists or not and these articles are not clearing anything


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## The Eagle

Zarvan said:


> Yes that is major issue these are also old articles and doesn't clear anything. The thing I want to get clarified is that whether 7.62 x 51 version of BREN exists or not and these articles are not clearing anything



Bro, one thing it clearly states and we have witnessed that there isn't much available in public domain about newer versions of CZ BREN hence expecting surprise. It is not necessary that hints or clues would be made public by PA either for people so all we can do is, read, observe, check the developments and can assume a favourable end to this. You missed something in above few posts, FN lacks a few things when it comes to greater recipe of deal.

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## Path-Finder

at the end of the video the quality of the manufacturing is very high.



Zarvan said:


>


Hazrat @Zarvan any more pics????



JohnEurope said:


> Hello guys.
> Some info about the CZ 807 BREN for the Pakistan.
> The CZ 807 BREN *IS* also already available in 7.62 X 51. The CZ in this calibre already development battle rifle BREN (let´s say G3 for 21. century) and DMR (Designated Marksman Rifle) BREN (let´s say SVD Dragunov for 21. century). Body is same as CZ 807 BREN, but with longer and more massive barrels, and more massive forearm. So you don´t need extra training for migration from CZ 807 BREN to "battle BREN" / or DMR Bren
> 
> The BREN is hole family of the small arms in three different calibres 5,56x45, 7,62x39 an 7,62x51, and with barrels from 8" to 16 ". Also you can use several buttstock, also "M4 style".
> 
> Guy, who stay behind project CZ 807 BREN, is ex-operator from czech special forces with experience from combat zones. So his experiences from combat zones (Afghanistan) are reflected to the weapon.


You my friend are putting nails in some coffins with this info!!! Can you then say that this pic of the target at the CZ booth in Pakistan is for the x51 BREN rifle???







TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Meanwhile,
> 
> A Shibli Electronics official has told @TheOccupiedKashmir that it's TARSIER long range thermal weapon sight is currently being trialed by Pakistan Army and after this phase will enter serial production in 2017 with complete manufacturing at Shibli Factory, Islamabad.
> 
> He added that SKUA LR thermal binocular has 'cleared the user trials' and will also enter serial production next year.


 So much good news today you have been proven right of their being a x51 BREN and now locally made thermal scope being adopted!! and Hazrat @Zarvan needs a ambulance

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## JohnEurope

Path-Finder. Keep in mind difference between the CZ 805 BREN and the CZ 807 BREN. I agree, It can be little bit confused.
The *CZ 805 BREN *was very first weapon of new BREN family. Is in use in the Czech army (2012) or the mexican anti-drug units. The video, you mentioned above, is about the CZ 805 BREN and have nothing to do with the Pakistan tender. 

The "Pakistani" *CZ 807 BREN *on other hand, is kind new version with substantially better ergonomics, lower weight, better functionality, better inner mechanisms, etc., etc. CZ 807 BREN is "alter ego" of new *CZ BREN 2 *for Czech army.

The CZ 807 BREN is enhanced thanks the real combat experience (Afghanistan) with the CZ 805 BREN and thanks real knowledge about spec-ops operation.

The pics, you post above, is probably the CZ 807 BREN in soviet calibre 7,62x39 - because this soviet ammo (cartridge has a "bottle" shape) need curve magazine.

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## Zarvan

JohnEurope said:


> Path-Finder. Keep in mind difference between the CZ 805 BREN and the CZ 807 BREN. I agree, It can be little bit confused.
> The *CZ 805 BREN *was very first weapon of new BREN family. Is in use in the Czech army (2012) or the mexican anti-drug units. The video, you mentioned above, is about the CZ 805 BREN and have nothing to do with the Pakistan tender.
> 
> The "Pakistani" *CZ 807 BREN *on other hand, is kind new version with substantially better ergonomics, lower weight, better functionality, better inner mechanisms, etc., etc. CZ 807 BREN is "alter ego" of new *CZ BREN 2 *for Czech army.
> 
> The CZ 807 BREN is enhanced thanks the real combat experience (Afghanistan) with the CZ 805 BREN and thanks real knowledge about spec-ops operation.
> 
> The pics, you post above, is probably the CZ 807 BREN in soviet calibre 7,62x39 - because this soviet ammo (cartridge has a "bottle" shape) need curve magazine.



Is BREN available in 7.62 X 51 version or not ?


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## Path-Finder

JohnEurope said:


> Path-Finder. Keep in mind difference between the CZ 805 BREN and the CZ 807 BREN. I agree, It can be little bit confused.
> The *CZ 805 BREN *was very first weapon of new BREN family. Is in use in the Czech army (2012) or the mexican anti-drug units. The video, you mentioned above, is about the CZ 805 BREN and have nothing to do with the Pakistan tender.
> 
> The "Pakistani" *CZ 807 BREN *on other hand, is kind new version with substantially better ergonomics, lower weight, better functionality, better inner mechanisms, etc., etc. CZ 807 BREN is "alter ego" of new *CZ BREN 2 *for Czech army.
> 
> The CZ 807 BREN is enhanced thanks the real combat experience (Afghanistan) with the CZ 805 BREN and thanks real knowledge about spec-ops operation.
> 
> The pics, you post above, is probably the CZ 807 BREN in soviet calibre 7,62x39 - because this soviet ammo (cartridge has a "bottle" shape) need curve magazine.


thanks for your input. the target in the pic






says ammo used 7.62x51 (0.308 win) 168 grain match grade, this has sparked a debate until you have confirmed that a 7.62x51 NATO BREN is in existence or the 807 BREN can fire this calibre of ammo as well.



Zarvan said:


> Is BREN available in 7.62 X 51 version or not ?


Hazrat @Zarvan he is saying that the new BREN 807 can fire the 7.62x51 as well with changes made to the chassis. either way he is confirming that x51 is not out of reach for CZ BREN!!!

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> thanks for your input. the target in the pic
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> says ammo used 7.62x51 (0.308 win) 168 grain match grade, this has sparked a debate until you have confirmed that a 7.62x51 NATO BREN is in existence or the 807 BREN can fire this calibre of ammo as well.
> 
> 
> Hazrat @Zarvan he is saying that the new BREN 807 can fire the 7.62x51 as well with changes made to the chassis. either way he is confirming that x51 is not out of reach for CZ BREN!!!


Sorry to burst your bubble but I just checked with the main guy who is also present on forum. He has clearly stated that there are two tenders BREN was participating only in one and has won that and that is CZ BREN 807 7.62 x 39 version. It's not part of that tender in which SCAR is participating.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

niaz said:


> Debate of whether to use larger 7.62 x 51 round or smaller 5.56 x45 round has been going around in among the NATO forces for a long time along with the argument of semi-automatic versus fully automatic.
> 
> I admit that I have only fired bolt action rifles on the occasional deer shoot in Scotland because UK licensing laws don’t allow self-loading firearms for private use. Therefore I am only speaking with second hand references. However I had been member of the RAC club at Pell Mell for many years where I came across quite a few retired British Army & Navy Officers.
> 
> During the Falkland war, UK Military was using LIA1 SLR (FN FAL) semi-automatic rifle with the standard NATO 7.62 x 51 rounds. When I inquired as to why they did not use fully automatic version; it was explained to me that the semi-automatic setting is plenty fast and you have total control of the weapon; actual difference between emptying 20 round L1A1 rifle on semi-automatic or fully automatic mode being only about 4 seconds.
> 
> Additionally, on full automatic mode, large round of say 7.62 calibre tends the rifle muzzle to move upwards and therefore causes wastage of ammunition. Standard UK Army issue was ‘semi-automatic’ because of its accuracy and less wastage. However there is no denying that on short-range (less than 50 meters) and when ambushed by the enemy, automatic fire is needed. That is why most modern military rifles have built-in semi as well as fully auto option. In my view, both the 7.62 x 51 and 7.62 x 39 firing rifles would suffer from the same problem. Hence there is little to choose between the two calibres.
> 
> Understandably, for a soldier in the middle of a fire fight “not” running out of ammunition is extremely important. Disadvantage of being on full auto is that most soldiers don't aim; they just spray bullets all over the place and run out of ammunition sooner.
> 
> In addition to having lesser ‘kick’; smaller 5.56 calibre bullets have the big advantage of being lighter and therefore a soldier can carry more of them. In this case it is a choice between ensuring that the enemy is sufficiently incapacitated after being hit by a single bullet that he is not to able to fire back and being able to carry more ammo.
> 
> Even though I have firm belief that Pak Army ammo experts know best; I am glad that they are keeping the 7.62 round. Because I have seen the effects of a 7 mm bullet on the deer at the distance of 70 – 80 meters and I would go for a 7.62 round especially over the hilly terrain or on sandy flats.





niaz said:


> Most of the assault rifles of the last 50 years such as HKG3,G38 & 416, AK-47/ 74 / 103, AR-16/18, M- 14/M16, Steyr Aug, Galil, SIG 550, HK416, FN FAL and FN Scar are not that much better than each other. Of course newer rifles are lighter & with less kick, one can carry more of the new 0.556 less lethal round but can one honestly say that a soldier carrying FN Scar will be victor against the enemy carrying G-3 or Galil or even the ubiquitous AK-47.
> 
> The answer is surely ‘No’ as there are too many variables involved in here. No one rifle or a specific type of ammo can be said to be superior with certainty
> 
> Let’s us examine the experience of real combat situations. During the long Vietnam war, Vietcong guerrilla equipped largely with the AK-47 (Chinese type 56) assault rifle successfully fought with US troops carrying M-14 & M-16. Same thing happened in Somalia and now happening in Afghanistan. In the Falklands, both the British as well as Argentinian infantry were using FN FAL rifle. You can’t really say that success of Pak Army in the Zarbe Azb is due to the G-3 being superior to Taliban’s Kalashnikovs.
> 
> The above long winded preamble is not meant to belittle the need for replacement of the aging G3 rifle. Every Pakistani would like their soldiers to have the best assault rifle in the world. My point is simply to stress that Hon TheDarkKnight is correct is his assertion the limited resources available to Pak Army may provide more bang for the buck if other urgently needed equipment such artillery is given priority.
> 
> Finally, whichever way one looks at it; it appears that small arms, especially the assault rifle, design reached its peak during the decades of cold war era and therefore it is not easy to choose one over the other. Besides, a new assault rifle will be in service for the next 30 to 40 years and I am glad the Pak Army experts are taking their time to make up their mind.


Niaz sb actually the AK type weapons were introduced by PA because G-3 proved to be a pain in the butt... Too long,weight,recoil. ... Soldiers finding it hard to take out targets while on move ... Too long for CQB ops... That all lead to the introduction of AK series... And subsequently to the decision to replace G3.



Zarvan said:


> Sorry to burst your bubble but I just checked with the main guy who is also present on forum. He has clearly stated that there are two tenders BREN was participating only in one and has won that and that is CZ BREN 807 7.62 x 39 version. It's not part of that tender in which SCAR is participating.



You are acting like a dumbass child .. The stubborn kind ... Even parents end up beating for his constant annoying rants.

How many military's worldwide are using SCAR to equip their regulars? Not even a single one.. Not even US Military.. Because it's too expensive ... I have my doubts that it wouldn't be selected except for maybe the special forces.. Unless you think Pak can afford to equip a million troops with a 25-3000 dollar complex gun.

Logically ARX has more chance than scar.

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## Zarvan

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Niaz sb actually the AK type weapons were introduced by PA because G-3 proved to be a pain in the butt... Too long,weight,recoil. ... Soldiers finding it hard to take out targets while on move ... Too long for CQB ops... That all lead to the introduction of AK series... And subsequently to the decision to replace G3.
> 
> 
> 
> You are acting like a dumbass child .. The stubborn kind ... Even parents end up beating for his constant annoying rants.


I was just curious and now satisfied and waiting for result of other tender in which Berreta ARX 200 and SCAR are finalists and one would come Berreta problem is that it's way to heavy


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Shibli ought to consider getting into the reflexive sights/red-dot sight business.



Don't IOP produces a few.



Zarvan said:


> I was just curious and now satisfied and waiting for result of other tender in which Berreta ARX 200 and SCAR are finalists and one would come Berreta problem is that it's way to heavy



Type 56 replaced the MP-5 ( I don't even know why the Fk somebody chose to produce it in the first place -- kickbacks maybe)....... As a stop gap.... But who knows ... In this era of versatile weapons .. The Army may select 1 rifle as standard weapon rather than 2 for different jobs



JohnEurope said:


> Path-Finder. Keep in mind difference between the CZ 805 BREN and the CZ 807 BREN. I agree, It can be little bit confused.
> The *CZ 805 BREN *was very first weapon of new BREN family. Is in use in the Czech army (2012) or the mexican anti-drug units. The video, you mentioned above, is about the CZ 805 BREN and have nothing to do with the Pakistan tender.
> 
> The "Pakistani" *CZ 807 BREN *on other hand, is kind new version with substantially better ergonomics, lower weight, better functionality, better inner mechanisms, etc., etc. CZ 807 BREN is "alter ego" of new *CZ BREN 2 *for Czech army.
> 
> The CZ 807 BREN is enhanced thanks the real combat experience (Afghanistan) with the CZ 805 BREN and thanks real knowledge about spec-ops operation.
> 
> The pics, you post above, is probably the CZ 807 BREN in soviet calibre 7,62x39 - because this soviet ammo (cartridge has a "bottle" shape) need curve magazine.



Any x51 cal variant ... Under development or in service?

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## Zarvan

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Don't IOP produces a few.
> 
> 
> 
> Type 56 replaced the MP-5 ( I don't even know why the Fk somebody chose to produce it in the first place -- kickbacks maybe)....... As a stop gap.... But who knows ... In this era of versatile weapons .. The Army may select 1 rifle as standard weapon rather than 2 for different jobs
> 
> 
> 
> Any x51 cal variant ... Under development or in service?


No they issued two tenders. One to replace Type 56 and one to replace G3 I didn't even knew that I just came to know today. BREN was participating in 7.62 x 39 alone and has won this tender but in 7.62 x 51 Berreta and SCAR are shortlisted and are in talks with Pakistan for the deal.

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## JohnEurope

Path-Finder: I really don´t know, if the CZ offer the Pakistani army some rifle of the BREN family in 7,62x51. But I´m pretty sure, If the Pakistani army want BREN in 7,62x51, they get it. It is all about, what the customer need and want.

True is, the BREN in 7,62x51 is fresh news, and there is no news or articles about BREN in 7,62x51. And I really don´t know, if BREN 7,62x51 will be mark as (let´s say) CZ 807B BREN or CZ 808 BREN, or whatever.

You have to thinking about BREN, *as* *about the family of assault rifles with same fire mechanism, control buttons, core and body* - from super-short carbine (8" barrel, butt-stock "MP5 style" and calibre 5,56x45 to DMR with heavy and long barrel and calibre 7,62x51). If you want 7,62x51, you get it.

Mr. Sanda, head of project, very clearly said in czech article:_ "CZ BREN is very thoughtful platform of the family of the multi-caliber assault rifle in three calibres 5,56×45 NATO / 7,62×39 / 7,62×51."_

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

This article (link - thanks @JohnEurope) says that there are 7.62x51 mm BREN 2s with 14" and 16" barrels:

"CZ BREN 2 v "sovětské ráži" má stejně dlouhé hlavně, mimo nejkratší, ta začíná na délce 9". Existuje také verze CZ BREN 2 pro náboj 7,62×51 NATO s 14" a 16“ hlavní."

English (Google Translate): 

_CZ BREN 2 in the "Soviet caliber" has the same length barrel, off short, it starts on the length of 9 ". There is also a version of the CZ BREN 2 charge for 7.62 × 51 NATO with 14" and 16 "barrel.
_
http://www.armadninoviny.cz/utocna-puska-cz-bren-2-novy-pristup-nove-mysleni.html

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Sorry to burst your bubble but I just checked with the main guy who is also present on forum. He has clearly stated that there are two tenders BREN was participating only in one and has won that and that is CZ BREN 807 7.62 x 39 version. It's not part of that tender in which SCAR is participating.


your whole reasoning is based on a personal wish for SCAR to win and nothing more! no bubble has been busted other than the likelihood that SCAR's chances are getting slimmer to size 0!!


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> your whole reasoning is based on a personal wish for SCAR to win and nothing more! no bubble has been busted other than the likelihood that SCAR's chances are getting slimmer to size 0!!


Mr BREN is not participating in 7.62 X 51 category I am telling you. For 7.62 X 51 two rifles were shortlisted and those are Berreta ARX 200 and SCAR H. This is not my personal choice I asked the guy about the trials and he has clearly told that there are two tenders BREN was participating only in 7.62 x 39 not in 7.62 X 51. So believe what you want to believe but BREN is only replacing Type 56 not G3.



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> This article (link - thanks @JohnEurope) says that there are 7.62x51 mm BREN 2s with 14" and 16" barrels:
> 
> "CZ BREN 2 v "sovětské ráži" má stejně dlouhé hlavně, mimo nejkratší, ta začíná na délce 9". Existuje také verze CZ BREN 2 pro náboj 7,62×51 NATO s 14" a 16“ hlavní."
> 
> English (Google Translate):
> 
> _CZ BREN 2 in the "Soviet caliber" has the same length barrel, off short, it starts on the length of 9 ". There is also a version of the CZ BREN 2 charge for 7.62 × 51 NATO with 14" and 16 "barrel.
> _
> http://www.armadninoviny.cz/utocna-puska-cz-bren-2-novy-pristup-nove-mysleni.html


According to most credible source who is also present at forum here. BREN isn't participating in 7.62 x 51 tender. In this tender Berreta ARX 200 and SCAR H are shortlisted and soon one would be declared winner.


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Mr BREN is not participating in 7.62 X 51 category I am telling you. For 7.62 X 51 two rifles were shortlisted and those are Berreta ARX 200 and SCAR H. This is not my personal choice I asked the guy about the trials and he has clearly told that there are two tenders BREN was participating only in 7.62 x 39 not in 7.62 X 51. So believe what you want to believe but BREN is only replacing Type 56 not G3.
> 
> 
> According to most credible source who is also present at forum here. BREN isn't participating in 7.62 x 51 tender. In this tender Berreta ARX 200 and SCAR H are shortlisted and soon one would be declared winner.


things can change and nothing is set in stone!! lets not be narrow minded about things Mr SCAR!! the whole point is to find the best solution and if they don't get one from the current trials the trials can happen again with other candidates! unless you your sources feed you that these trials are it!!! as for BREN it is a possibility if they unveil a x51 as well! open mindedness is needed to these things!!

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> things can change and nothing is set in stone!! lets not be narrow minded about things Mr SCAR!! the whole point is to find the best solution and if they don't get one from the current trials the trials can happen again with other candidates! unless you your sources feed you that these trials are it!!! as for BREN it is a possibility if they unveil a x51 as well! open mindedness is needed to these things!!


Bhai trials are over. We are not going to do any new trials. For both tenders rifles are tested and now short listed and talks are on. For 7.62 x 39 deal is done with BREN and for 7.62 x 51 talks are on and we would soon hear about the winner. Either Berreta or SCAR H will come.


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Bhai trials are over. We are not going to do any new trials. For both tenders rifles are tested and now short listed and talks are on. For 7.62 x 39 deal is done with BREN and for 7.62 x 51 talks are on and we would soon hear about the winner. Either Berreta or SCAR H will come.


Hazrat let's be patient and open minded to possibilities that are not made public. I respectfully urge calm and openness! unless you can tell us that how long they will take to announce the winner!!!


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## 50cent

Zarvan said:


> Bhai trials are over. We are not going to do any new trials. For both tenders rifles are tested and now short listed and talks are on. For 7.62 x 39 deal is done with BREN and for 7.62 x 51 talks are on and we would soon hear about the winner. Either Berreta or SCAR H will come.


Scar maybe for special forces only with limited numbers because they are too expensive


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Bhai trials are over. We are not going to do any new trials. For both tenders rifles are tested and now short listed and talks are on. For 7.62 x 39 deal is done with BREN and for 7.62 x 51 talks are on and we would soon hear about the winner. Either Berreta or SCAR H will come.


another thing if we members wish to discuss a BREN in x51 then why does your sabre begin to rattle? this is a forum for discussions is it not?? regardless whatever the trails are based on and whatever the tenders may be!!!


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## Zarvan

galaxy_surfer said:


> Scar maybe for special forces only with limited numbers because they are too expensive


We knew about the costs before we started trials and SCAR H and Berreta ARX 200 are shortlisted to replace G3 and our special forces don't use G3. So no SCAR H or Berreta would not be coming in short numbers which ever of these rifle is selected will come in large numbers and will be produced in Pakistan. @Path-Finder Many members of forum and also my group on face book participated in IDEAS 2016 and they also met FN SCAR guys and SCAR guys were pretty confident that they would win the tender and they are not that dumb that they had no clue for what Pakistan signed MOU with BREN makers. Still they were confident so that clearly indicates that BREN and SCAR are participating for different tenders.


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> We knew about the costs before we started trials and SCAR H and Berreta ARX 200 are shortlisted to replace G3 and our special forces don't use G3. So no SCAR H or Berreta would not be coming in short numbers which ever of these rifle is selected will come in large numbers and will be produced in Pakistan. @Path-Finder Many members of forum and also my group on face book participated in IDEAS 2016 and they also met FN SCAR guys and SCAR guys were pretty confident that they would win the tender and they are not that dumb that they had no clue for what Pakistan signed MOU with BREN makers. Still they were confident so that clearly indicates that BREN and SCAR are participating for different tenders.


i say this again if we are wanting to discuss something that is contradicting with your opinion then why do you get iffy about it? that is what I am trying to get at! there is a world beyond SCAR BREN ARX & if a better platform comes then what happens? I get it you have sources but discussion and having sources are things poles apart!!


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> i say this again if we are wanting to discuss something that is contradicting with your opinion then why do you get iffy about it? that is what I am trying to get at! there is a world beyond SCAR BREN ARX & if a better platform comes then what happens? I get it you have sources but discussion and having sources are things poles apart!!


We are not going to test any new rifle. We tested rifles for both contenders many of them passed our tests and few rifles were short listed for both tenders for 7.62 x 39 CZ 807 have won and will come with TOT and for G3 replacement talks are on with Berreta and SCAR. We are not interested in checking any new rifle


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> We are not going to test any new rifle. We tested rifles for both contenders many of them passed our tests and few rifles were short listed for both tenders for 7.62 x 39 CZ 807 have won and will come with TOT and for G3 replacement talks are on with Berreta and SCAR. We are not interested in checking any new rifle


again you are repeating like a machine? maybe you are a machine! read what i wrote again!


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> again you are repeating like a machine? maybe you are a machine! read what i wrote again!


Mr when you go to buy a car you don't start imagining what if a next model comes in next 6 months sorry but if you start doing this you would never able to buy a weapon or a car or anything.


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Mr when you go to buy a car you don't start imagining what if a next model comes in next 6 months sorry but if you start doing this you would never able to buy a weapon or a car or anything.


Hazrat I am fascinated with your lack of open mindedness and inability with listen to different reasoning, may it be wrong or right! if i am purchasing a car i decide what is best and go far and wide to seek out the best and if my picked choices are not sufficient I wait and keep faith in Allah and keep looking. The patience pays off or Sabar pays off!


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat I am fascinated with your lack of open mindedness and inability with listen to different reasoning, may it be wrong or right! if i am purchasing a car i decide what is best and go far and wide to seek out the best and if my picked choices are not sufficient I wait and keep faith in Allah and keep looking. The patience pays off or Sabar pays off!


Sorry you may wait but countries don't wait that much. You test best available things on that time select one and go for it and yes as we are humans we would improving things but that doesn't mean you waste years in deciding what you need. What you are suggesting is won't get us anything okay let say in next one month some country produces better assault rifle than CZ 807 BREN 7.62 X 39 should we drop whole deal and run after that. Sorry but nothing can work like that. You need too be open minded not me you are suggesting something which would only keep delaying things.


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Sorry you may wait but countries don't wait that much. You test best available things on that time select one and go for it and yes as we are humans we would improving things but that doesn't mean you waste years in deciding what you need. What you are suggesting is won't get us anything okay let say in next one month some country produces better assault rifle than CZ 807 BREN 7.62 X 39 should we drop whole deal and run after that. Sorry but nothing can work like that. You need too be open minded not me you are suggesting something which would only keep delaying things.


again i am NOT talking about rifle selection at all! But carry on. But you know better than everyone so what can I say!


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## LegitimateIdiot

Zarvan said:


> SCAR H because not only it performed better in trials but also I know people who are in contact with FN and also our Army they are also suggesting that SCAR has more chances but you never know so waiting for final decision to take place on 7.62 X 51 caliber rifle to get selected.


don't feel bad the cz is very scar like in terms of deisgn


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## Zarvan

LegitimateIdiot said:


> don't feel bad the cz is very scar like in terms of deisgn


Brother SCAR H and Berreta ARX 200 are participating for replacing G3 and BREN was participating to replace Type 56. I was also confused till yesterday but friend has cleared the confusion now. Type 56 replacement has been selected that is CZ 807 BREN and for G3 talks are still taking place

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## Sulman Badshah

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> This article (link - thanks @JohnEurope) says that there are 7.62x51 mm BREN 2s with 14" and 16" barrels:
> 
> "CZ BREN 2 v "sovětské ráži" má stejně dlouhé hlavně, mimo nejkratší, ta začíná na délce 9". Existuje také verze CZ BREN 2 pro náboj 7,62×51 NATO s 14" a 16“ hlavní."
> 
> English (Google Translate):
> 
> _CZ BREN 2 in the "Soviet caliber" has the same length barrel, off short, it starts on the length of 9 ". There is also a version of the CZ BREN 2 charge for 7.62 × 51 NATO with 14" and 16 "barrel.
> _
> http://www.armadninoviny.cz/utocna-puska-cz-bren-2-novy-pristup-nove-mysleni.html


haven't seen Bren with X51 ammo ... Although a pic would've been nice ...

14" will be too short for our eastern front ... 16" is standard barrel Although it should be good if they introduce long barrel like 20" as well ..

Article also states that for PA X39 is being offered

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## TheDarkKnight

Zarvan said:


> Mr when you go to buy a car you don't start imagining what if a next model comes in next 6 months sorry but if you start doing this you would never able to buy a weapon or a car or anything.


I did when buying a new cellphone ( had galaxy s3 since 2012), and nobody stopped me or it reduced any of my cellular communication abilities. Should do the same with cars, fridge, wife etc. and anyother important thing or decision in life which will stay with you for a long time. Jaldbazi ka failsa Shaitaan ka faisla hota hai.



Zarvan said:


> Sorry you may wait but countries don't wait that much. You test best available things on that time select one and go for it and yes as we are humans we would improving things but that doesn't mean you waste years in deciding what you need. What you are suggesting is won't get us anything okay let say in next one month some country produces better assault rifle than CZ 807 BREN 7.62 X 39 should we drop whole deal and run after that. Sorry but nothing can work like that. You need too be open minded not me you are suggesting something which would only keep delaying things.


Brother the wait time for these decisions at a country level is even longer ... governments and large millitaries move slowly. How quickly did we decide on submaries (previously was german/french), replacement of current old frigates ( still no solid plan insight, atleast publicly), Alkhalid 2 and Alhaider tank programs (the delays and cycles they went through is well known) Indian MMRCA decision etc. G3 even though outdated, its not like it has stopped working ... they still shoot fine and do the job and we can keep on manufacturing them to replace old ones. Unlike large systems like fighter jets and frigates which cannot be easily replaced.
For example you can continue using G3 as a rifle, as long as the ground situation or dynamics at the soldier level dont change drastically (such as introduction of lasers!). All militaries are still using 7.62/5.56. bullets with range of 300 to 600 meters. But for a fighter aircraft you can't field a 3rd gen fighter when the adversary has 4.5+ or 5th gen aircrafts.

Anyway another year for evaluation a BREN 7.62x51 shouldn't hurt at all and may turn out to be worth it. There is a strong business case, as we will develop/upgrade POF for Bren 807, and most of these new facilities and tech I hope can be used to produce a Bren 7.62x51 rifle. If I can borrow some of @Quwa words, you were open for a 7.62x39 version of a SCAR prototype selected, because it would make sense if SCAR H is chosen for 7.62x51; but then if the reverse is suggested to achieve commanality by getting 7.62x51 rifle from the manufacturer of the selected 7.62x39 bren rifle ... we suddenly are out of time or trials are closed? Is this a sale event that has expired or a theater drama that has started and no new entries are allowed? Trials can be restarted with Bren 7.62x51 included if PA decides (remember PWS included in mid of these trials, oplot M going through retrials as well etc.) and no one can stop them, if they think that this will result in savings without compromising on operational requirements. In short retrial of weapons is nothing new and can happen in this case; not saying it will happen as we still haven't heared if PA is thinking this way.

Regards

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## Zarvan

TheDarkKnight said:


> I did when buying a new cellphone ( had galaxy s3 since 2012), and nobody stopped me or it reduced any of my cellular communication abilities. Should do the same with cars, fridge, wife etc. and anyother important things in life which will stay with you for a long time. Jaldbazi ka failsa Shaitaan ka faisla hota hai.
> 
> 
> Brother the wait time for these decisions at a country level is even longer ... governments and large millitaries move slowly. How quickly did we decide on submaries (previously was german/french), replacement of current old frigates ( still no solid plan insight, atleast publicly), Alkhalid 2 and Alhaider tank programs (you know more about these programs and the delays and cycles they went through), Indian MMRCA decision etc. G3 even though outdated, its not like it has stopped working anymore ... they still shoot fine and do the job and we can keep on manufacturing them to replace old ones. Unlike large systems like fighter jets and frigates which cannot be simply replaced and you need to find a new system to replace them based on the threats and latest techs.
> For example you can continue using G3 as a rifle, as long as the ground situation or dynamics at the soldier doesn't change drastically ... all militaries still using 7.62/5.56. bullets witn range of 300to 600 meters. But for a fighter aircraft you cant field a 3rd gen fighter when the adversary has 4.5+ or 5th gen a/c. Unless the adversaries soldiers start getting lets say laser rifles ... then thats a game changer and would need to be addressed asap.
> 
> Anyway another year for evaluating a BREN 7.62x51 shouldnt hurt at all; There is a strong business case, as we will develop/upgrade POF for bren 807, and most of these facilities can be used to produce a bren 7.62x51 rifle. I mean if I can borrow some of @Quwa words, you were open for a 7.62x39 version of a SCAR prototype selected, because it would make sense if scar h is choosen; but then if the reverse is suggested to achieve commanality by getting 7.62x51 rifle from the manufacturer of the selected 7.62x39 rilfe ... we suddenly are out of time or trials are closed? Is this a sale event that has expired or a theater drama that has started and no new entries are allowed ? Trials can be restarted with Bren 7.62x51included if PA decides (remember PWS included in mid of these trials, oplot M going through retrials as well etc.) and no one can stop them them, if they thinks that this will result in huge savings without compromsing on operational requirements. In short retrial of weapons is nothing new and can happen in this case (not saying it will happen as we still havent heared if PA is thinking this way).
> 
> Regards



I am not going to debate further. Turns out BREN wasn't competing in 7.62 x 51 version rifle or G3 replacement. They were competing to in replacement for Type 56 and have won that. For G3 replacement SCAR H and BERRETA ARX 200 are short listed and one of them would come.


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> I am not going to debate further. Turns out BREN wasn't competing in 7.62 x 51 version rifle or G3 replacement. They were competing to in replacement for Type 56 and have won that. For G3 replacement SCAR H and BERRETA ARX 200 are short listed and one of them would come.


Zarvan mate you are placing a huge burden on your brain and you should rest, this Rifle replacement is become far too personal for you.



TheDarkKnight said:


> I did when buying a new cellphone ( had galaxy s3 since 2012), and nobody stopped me or it reduced any of my cellular communication abilities. Should do the same with cars, fridge, wife etc. and anyother important thing or decision in life which will stay with you for a long time. Jaldbazi ka failsa Shaitaan ka faisla hota hai.
> 
> 
> Brother the wait time for these decisions at a country level is even longer ... governments and large millitaries move slowly. How quickly did we decide on submaries (previously was german/french), replacement of current old frigates ( still no solid plan insight, atleast publicly), Alkhalid 2 and Alhaider tank programs (the delays and cycles they went through is well known) Indian MMRCA decision etc. G3 even though outdated, its not like it has stopped working ... they still shoot fine and do the job and we can keep on manufacturing them to replace old ones. Unlike large systems like fighter jets and frigates which cannot be easily replaced.
> For example you can continue using G3 as a rifle, as long as the ground situation or dynamics at the soldier level dont change drastically (such as introduction of lasers!). All militaries are still using 7.62/5.56. bullets with range of 300 to 600 meters. But for a fighter aircraft you can't field a 3rd gen fighter when the adversary has 4.5+ or 5th gen aircrafts.
> 
> Anyway another year for evaluation a BREN 7.62x51 shouldn't hurt at all and may turn out to be worth it. There is a strong business case, as we will develop/upgrade POF for Bren 807, and most of these new facilities and tech I hope can be used to produce a Bren 7.62x51 rifle. If I can borrow some of @Quwa words, you were open for a 7.62x39 version of a SCAR prototype selected, because it would make sense if SCAR H is chosen for 7.62x51; but then if the reverse is suggested to achieve commanality by getting 7.62x51 rifle from the manufacturer of the selected 7.62x39 bren rifle ... we suddenly are out of time or trials are closed? Is this a sale event that has expired or a theater drama that has started and no new entries are allowed? Trials can be restarted with Bren 7.62x51 included if PA decides (remember PWS included in mid of these trials, oplot M going through retrials as well etc.) and no one can stop them, if they think that this will result in savings without compromising on operational requirements. In short retrial of weapons is nothing new and can happen in this case; not saying it will happen as we still haven't heared if PA is thinking this way.
> 
> Regards


I said roughly the same thing but Hazrat @Zarvan just doesn't understand that because of personal lust of a certain system! Regardless good try but it still falls short

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## PakGuns

Sulman Badshah said:


> haven't seen Bren with X51 ammo ... Although a pic would've been nice ...
> 
> 14" will be too short for our eastern front ... 16" is standard barrel Although it should be good if they introduce long barrel like 20" as well ..
> 
> Article also states that for PA X39 is being offered


To replace sniper rifle?


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Zarvan mate you are placing a huge burden on your brain and you should rest, this Rifle replacement is become far too personal for you.
> 
> 
> I said roughly the same thing but Hazrat @Zarvan just doesn't understand that because of personal lust of a certain system! Regardless good try but it still falls short


Bhai I have clarified it to you and I am saying it for last time. BREN was only participating in 7.62 x 39 caliber assault rifle for 7.62 x 51 SCAR H and Berreta ARX 200 are shortlisted and one would come.


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Bhai I have clarified it to you and I am saying it for last time. BREN was only participating in 7.62 x 39 caliber assault rifle for 7.62 x 51 SCAR H and Berreta ARX 200 are shortlisted and one would come.


Hazrat, what if none of these are chosen and new trials begin? are you mentally prepared for that?


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat, what if none of these are chosen and new trials begin? are you mentally prepared for that?


I can't say if that happens but until now talks are on for G3 replacement with SCAR H and Berreta and one would come most probably. There are no indications that we may go for another process.


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## Gryphon

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> This article (link - thanks @JohnEurope) says that there are 7.62x51 mm BREN 2s with 14" and 16" barrels:
> 
> "CZ BREN 2 v "sovětské ráži" má stejně dlouhé hlavně, mimo nejkratší, ta začíná na délce 9". Existuje také verze CZ BREN 2 pro náboj 7,62×51 NATO s 14" a 16“ hlavní."
> 
> English (Google Translate):
> 
> _CZ BREN 2 in the "Soviet caliber" has the same length barrel, off short, it starts on the length of 9 ". There is also a version of the CZ BREN 2 charge for 7.62 × 51 NATO with 14" and 16 "barrel.
> _
> http://www.armadninoviny.cz/utocna-puska-cz-bren-2-novy-pristup-nove-mysleni.html



Same link I cited in post #1 to create this thread. You didn't notice ? 



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Shibli ought to consider getting into the reflexive sights/red-dot sight business.



Shibli is new into the business and I don't expect they will expand much (in the short-term).

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Same link I cited in post #1 to create this thread. You didn't notice ?
> 
> 
> 
> Shibli is new into the business and I don't expect they will expand much (in the short-term).


No. I didn't notice.


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## LegitimateIdiot

Zarvan said:


> Brother SCAR H and Berreta ARX 200 are participating for replacing G3 and BREN was participating to replace Type 56. I was also confused till yesterday but friend has cleared the confusion now. Type 56 replacement has been selected that is CZ 807 BREN and for G3 talks are still taking place



k thanks for clearing it up


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## Rafi

I personally don't think that we will purchase two rifles, Bren is the favourite and is very flexible in producing different configurations for different roles.

I may be wrong, but I don't think so.

When I look at quality of product, price, growth potential, licence production, unless the others can match CZ in the full spectrum. Then Bren for the win.

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## Zarvan

Rafi said:


> I personally don't think that we will purchase two rifles, Bren is the favourite and is very flexible in producing different configurations for different roles.
> 
> I may be wrong, but I don't think so.
> 
> When I look at quality of product, price, growth potential, licence production, unless the others can match CZ in the full spectrum. Then Bren for the win.


Sir according to a friend who is also on this forum in fact one of the main Guys of forum told me two days ago that there were two tenders from day one. One was to replace G3 and one was to replace Type 56. BREN was only participating in one that is Type 56 replacement and has own that. Talks for G3 replacement are on and Berreta ARX 200 and SCAR H are two contenders in talks with Pakistan for that.


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## Rafi

Zarvan said:


> Sir according to a friend who is also on this forum in fact one of the main Guys of forum told me two days ago that there were two tenders from day one. One was to replace G3 and one was to replace Type 56. BREN was only participating in one that is Type 56 replacement and has own that. Talks for G3 replacement are on and Berreta ARX 200 and SCAR H are two contenders in talks with Pakistan for





Zarvan said:


> Sir according to a friend who is also on this forum in fact one of the main Guys of forum told me two days ago that there were two tenders from day one. One was to replace G3 and one was to replace Type 56. BREN was only participating in one that is Type 56 replacement and has own that. Talks for G3 replacement are on and Berreta ARX 200 and SCAR H are two contenders in talks with Pakistan for that.



Only 1 rifle will be licence produced, we cannot afford to produce 2 rifles. Funds have to be used for new wheeled IFV, MRAP, SPA, Helicopter Gunships etc

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## Cool_Soldier

When would be final announcement is expected for replacement of G3 Gun?


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## Burhan Wani

G3 legecy will end one day. Sad news.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Rafi said:


> Only 1 rifle will be licence produced, we cannot afford to produce 2 rifles. Funds have to be used for new wheeled IFV, MRAP, SPA, Helicopter Gunships etc


I think the SCAR-H or ARX-200 could come, but as small batch orders for specific units, such as SSG. I don't think we wouldn't see two competing rifle platforms produced at POF. Besides cost, there is also the issue of competitive conflict-of-interest, why would FN Herstal, CZ, or Beretta part with export licenses when POF will also be producing and marketing the rifle of their competitor?

On the other hand, there is a chance we could see two rifle platforms manufactured in Pakistan, but only one would be done by POF. The other rifle would have to be made under license by a separate private sector company.

To produce the SCAR-H or ARX-200 under license, the local company will have to invest a lot in building-up a proper manufacturing site. This firm will also be competing with POF for domestic and overseas orders. But then again, if Zarvan is saying that the G-3 will be replaced by the SCAR-H or ARX-200, then in my view, this is the only way it can happen: POF will make the BREN and a private Pakistani gun manufacturer will make the SCAR-H/ARX-200.

It wouldn't be the strangest situation. If replacing the G-3s alone requires even 100,000 rifles, there's scale. The issue would be the presence of a capable manufacturing site at Pakistan (other than POF).

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## Zarvan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I think the SCAR-H or ARX-200 could come, but as small batch orders for specific units, such as SSG. I don't think we wouldn't see two competing rifle platforms produced at POF. Besides cost, there is also the issue of competitive conflict-of-interest, why would FN Herstal, CZ, or Beretta part with export licenses when POF will also be producing and marketing the rifle of their competitor?
> 
> On the other hand, there is a chance we could see two rifle platforms manufactured in Pakistan, but only one would be done by POF. The other rifle would have to be made under license by a separate private sector company.
> 
> To produce the SCAR-H or ARX-200 under license, the local company will have to invest a lot in building-up a proper manufacturing site. This firm will also be competing with POF for domestic and overseas orders. But then again, if Zarvan is saying that the G-3 will be replaced by the SCAR-H or ARX-200, then in my view, this is the only way it can happen: POF will make the BREN and a private Pakistani gun manufacturer will make the SCAR-H/ARX-200.
> 
> It wouldn't be the strangest situation. If replacing the G-3s alone requires even 100,000 rifles, there's scale. The issue would be the presence of a capable manufacturing site at Pakistan (other than POF).



Sir we are looking for G3 replacement. And our special forces don't use G3 and even test special forces tested the rifles more as part of formality. Main tests were done with infantry units. We very well would see two parallel assault rifles being produced at POF. First reason is not only we would get them with TOT but also permission to export them. Secondly we already have habit of using more than one weapon. Most countries use one Tank we use several of them we in the past have operated 4 to 5 fighter jets many countries don't do it. And the list goes on and on. Still I am waiting for the news from the guy cleared the situation about which rifle was competing for who to give me news as it comes. I mean news for G3 replacement


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## JohnEurope

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I think the SCAR-H or ARX-200 could come, but as small batch orders for specific units, such as SSG. I don't think we wouldn't see two competing rifle platforms produced at POF. Besides cost, there is also the issue of competitive conflict-of-interest, why would FN Herstal, CZ, or Beretta part with export licenses when POF will also be producing and marketing the rifle of their competitor?
> 
> On the other hand, there is a chance we could see two rifle platforms manufactured in Pakistan, but only one would be done by POF. The other rifle would have to be made under license by a separate private sector company.
> 
> To produce the SCAR-H or ARX-200 under license, the local company will have to invest a lot in building-up a proper manufacturing site. This firm will also be competing with POF for domestic and overseas orders. But then again, if Zarvan is saying that the G-3 will be replaced by the SCAR-H or ARX-200, then in my view, this is the only way it can happen: POF will make the BREN and a private Pakistani gun manufacturer will make the SCAR-H/ARX-200.
> 
> It wouldn't be the strangest situation. If replacing the G-3s alone requires even 100,000 rifles, there's scale. The issue would be the presence of a capable manufacturing site at Pakistan (other than POF).



First of all, I´m Czech, so I lobbing for BREN, but...
...I don´t see only one reason, why the PA have to adopt two different types of assault/battle rifles. So if the CZ offer assault rifles, battle rifles, DMR as well, why buy two different rifles? Of course, we still talking only about technical, economic, industry and logistic issues.

In "assault BREN" and "battle BREN" PA got very similar weapons, with same logistic footprint. Soldiers can migrate between both rifles, without extra training. If soldiers carry both weapon, enemy can not easy recognise, which one soldier carry "assault BREN" or "Battle BREN", even "DMR BREN". And guys with battle rifles (or DMR) are top priority targets for enemies troops.

One of the most important issue is *sustainability*. The top priority for the PA (In my opinion) have to be sustain the maximum numbers of assault/battle rifles "combat ready" - everywhere, every-time, in all thinkable situations. Of course with the minimum cost and minimum logistic footprint. 

So, I really don´t see only one reason (of course, i´m not talking about political issues) why PA need two (or more) types of small arms. 

One type of assault rifles, battles rifles, DMR, short carbine, etc. substantially enhance combat effective of PA soldiers and reduce logistic footprint (costs, organizational challenges, spare parts, tools, etc.) and simplify training.

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## Kompromat

Ak-103 beat BREN by a wide margin in the X39 tests. Don't take this report seriously. 
SCAR is competing for X51 category.

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## Path-Finder

Horus said:


> Ak-103 beat BREN by a wide margin in the X39 tests. Don't take this report seriously.
> SCAR is competing for X51 category.


This is adding to more confusion!

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## Zarvan

Horus said:


> Ak-103 beat BREN by a wide margin in the X39 tests. Don't take this report seriously.
> SCAR is competing for X51 category.


Will you ever bother to end confusion. Now you are confusing us more. For which Assault Rifle we signed the contract for with Bren makers ?


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## Kompromat

Its quite simple. There are two calibers to be replaced.

7.62x39 = Bren - AK-103 & M22
7.62x51 = SCAR, ARX-200.

It is two different rifles, unless SCAR's X39 variant makes it to tests and wins.



Path-Finder said:


> This is adding to more confusion!





Zarvan said:


> Will you ever bother to end confusion. Now you are confusing us more. For which Assault Rifle we signed the contract for with Bren makers ?

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## Path-Finder

Horus said:


> Its quite simple. There are two calibers to be replaced.
> 
> 7.62x39 = Bren - AK-103 & M22
> 7.62x51 = SCAR, ARX-200.
> 
> It is two different rifles, unless SCAR's X39 variant makes it to tests and wins.


a great battle of ideas and word have taken place under the guise of rifle replacement and none of it leads to a conclusive winner! I think the rifle replacement issue will linger further on!!


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## Zarvan

Horus said:


> Its quite simple. There are two calibers to be replaced.
> 
> 7.62x39 = Bren - AK-103 & M22
> 7.62x51 = SCAR, ARX-200.
> 
> It is two different rifles, unless SCAR's X39 variant makes it to tests and wins.


Yes okay but we have signed the agreement with BREN but you are saying AK-103 performed better in 7.62 x 39 caliber than BREN than for what we have signed MOU for ? @Horus


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## Gryphon

Two CZ officials confirmed CZ 807 BREN (x39) was a finalist (besides SCAR and ARX-200) and Radio Pakistan reported that POF & CZ signed LoU to negotiate sale of small arms. Now @Horus wants us to believe the BS posted above.  On page 1 of this thread, he has praised the selection of BREN (despite hoping for a SCAR entry in x39).

And no M22 was trialed by PA in x39. Zastava M77 was tested in x51.

In the pic (L to R): Type 56, FN SCAR-H, Beretta ARX-200 and Zastava M77.







M77 was the first rifle to get eliminated. AK-103 failed in desert trials.

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## Rafi

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I think the SCAR-H or ARX-200 could come, but as small batch orders for specific units, such as SSG. I don't think we wouldn't see two competing rifle platforms produced at POF. Besides cost, there is also the issue of competitive conflict-of-interest, why would FN Herstal, CZ, or Beretta part with export licenses when POF will also be producing and marketing the rifle of their competitor?
> 
> On the other hand, there is a chance we could see two rifle platforms manufactured in Pakistan, but only one would be done by POF. The other rifle would have to be made under license by a separate private sector company.
> 
> To produce the SCAR-H or ARX-200 under license, the local company will have to invest a lot in building-up a proper manufacturing site. This firm will also be competing with POF for domestic and overseas orders. But then again, if Zarvan is saying that the G-3 will be replaced by the SCAR-H or ARX-200, then in my view, this is the only way it can happen: POF will make the BREN and a private Pakistani gun manufacturer will make the SCAR-H/ARX-200.
> 
> It wouldn't be the strangest situation. If replacing the G-3s alone requires even 100,000 rifles, there's scale. The issue would be the presence of a capable manufacturing site at Pakistan (other than POF).



Speaking to people involved in the tender, though the SCAR did very well and was the favourite, because it had the trademark factor, but it's down side is its too damn expensive, even if license produced to scale.

I get the impression (could be wrong) that the PA is hesitant to spend so much money on a new rifle, when CZ is offering something just as good, and in the case of calibre conversion is much better than Scar.

In fact CZ is offering up front a ton of rifles for new recruits for orientation and SPEC OPS.

Also they are offering something priceless, a long term close relationship with upgrades, new tech.

The Italians have also sweetened the pot, but CZ have grabbed the tender by the goolies, it's theirs to lose now.

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## Path-Finder

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Two CZ officials confirmed CZ 807 BREN (x39) was a finalist (besides SCAR and ARX-200) and Radio Pakistan reported that POF & CZ signed LoU to negotiate sale of small arms. Now @Horus wants us to believe the BS posted above.  On page 1 of this thread, he has praised the selection of BREN (despite hoping for a SCAR entry in x39).
> 
> And no M22 was trialed by PA in x39. Zastava M77 was tested in x51.
> 
> In the pic (L to R): Type 56, FN SCAR-H, Beretta ARX-200 and Zastava M77.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> M77 was the first rifle to get eliminated. AK-103 failed in desert trials.


There are more personal wishes than actual facts available! unfortunately 



Rafi said:


> Speaking to people involved in the tender, though the SCAR did very well and was the favourite, because it had the trademark factor, but it's down side is its too damn expensive, even if license produced to scale.
> 
> I get the impression (could be wrong) that the PA is hesitant to spend so much money on a new rifle, when CZ is offering something just as good, and in the case of calibre conversion is much better than Scar.
> 
> In fact CZ is offering up front a ton of rifles for new recruits for orientation and SPEC OPS.
> 
> Also they are offering something priceless, a long term close relationship with upgrades, new tech.
> 
> The Italians have also sweetened the pot, but CZ have grabbed the tender by the goolies, it's theirs to lose now.


If I can pick your brains in the land of confusion. Is CZ offering x51 besides the x39 tested in the tender?


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## s.k

JohnEurope said:


> First of all, I´m Czech, so I lobbing for BREN, but...
> ...I don´t see only one reason, why the PA have to adopt two different types of assault/battle rifles. So if the CZ offer assault rifles, battle rifles, DMR as well, why buy two different rifles? Of course, we still talking only about technical, economic, industry and logistic issues.
> 
> In "assault BREN" and "battle BREN" PA got very similar weapons, with same logistic footprint. Soldiers can migrate between both rifles, without extra training. If soldiers carry both weapon, enemy can not easy recognise, which one soldier carry "assault BREN" or "Battle BREN", even "DMR BREN". And guys with battle rifles (or DMR) are top priority targets for enemies troops.
> 
> One of the most important issue is *sustainability*. The top priority for the PA (In my opinion) have to be sustain the maximum numbers of assault/battle rifles "combat ready" - everywhere, every-time, in all thinkable situations. Of course with the minimum cost and minimum logistic footprint.
> 
> So, I really don´t see only one reason (of course, i´m not talking about political issues) why PA need two (or more) types of small arms.
> 
> One type of assault rifles, battles rifles, DMR, short carbine, etc. substantially enhance combat effective of PA soldiers and reduce logistic footprint (costs, organizational challenges, spare parts, tools, etc.) and simplify training.


Argentina selected 2 Rifles the one is Barreta Arx200 and the other is AK103.

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## Rafi

Path-Finder said:


> There are more personal wishes than actual facts available! unfortunately
> 
> 
> If I can pick your brains in the land of confusion. Is CZ offering x51 besides the x39 tested in the tender?



That's just it, they are offering the full spectrum package and the rifle is easily converted, the whole design is modular.

I think the PA by signing the memorandum of understanding with CZ is clearly indicating that it's the favourite, to win the tender, which taking into account the Armed Forces could eventually involve over a million rifles

The Navy and Airforce would buy what is being produced by POF.

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## Zarvan

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Two CZ officials confirmed CZ 807 BREN (x39) was a finalist (besides SCAR and ARX-200) and Radio Pakistan reported that POF & CZ signed LoU to negotiate sale of small arms. Now @Horus wants us to believe the BS posted above.  On page 1 of this thread, he has praised the selection of BREN (despite hoping for a SCAR entry in x39).
> 
> And no M22 was trialed by PA in x39. Zastava M77 was tested in x51.
> 
> In the pic (L to R): Type 56, FN SCAR-H, Beretta ARX-200 and Zastava M77.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> M77 was the first rifle to get eliminated. AK-103 failed in desert trials.



@Horus have hardly been proven wrong. He keeps quite and enjoys the show sitting behind mostly but he is well connected. So let's wait for the final results. @Rafi


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## farhan_9909

Bren is the best choice apart from performance and cost.The czech company will be willing to help POF in local manufacturing and further improvement.

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> There are more personal wishes than actual facts available! unfortunately
> 
> 
> If I can pick your brains in the land of confusion. Is CZ offering x51 besides the x39 tested in the tender?


@Horus doesn't come up with his personal wishes. He comes up with facts and he has best sources here on forum. Most occasions he is proven right so let's wait and see what happens because if you remember there were news that Pakistan has ordered large numbers of AK-103 few months ago.


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> @Horus doesn't come up with his personal wishes. He comes up with facts and he has best sources here on forum. Most occasions he is proven right so let's wait and see what happens because if you remember there were news that Pakistan has ordered large numbers of AK-103 few months ago.


I meant you Hazrat @Zarvan not @Horus


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## s.k

can any one here tell me whats the meaning of Memorandum of letter ? is it means PA signed the contract ? does it means the selected the Bren ? and Rejected all ? think a bit about it.


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## Rafi

SCAR lovers are going to be bitterly disappointed (I was one of them).

Reasons being.

1) price - FN is not being flexible on this, so potentially VERY expensive for the PA.

2) the PA has a very ambitious modernization and upgrade programme which involves everything from net centric to much better rations. Will be jeopardised by spending too much on a new rifle.

3) the Italians have also in mind of CZ have made a much better offer.

If FN don't humble themselves, they are gonna lose big, and could end of with nothing. With only their own arrogance to blame.

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## Path-Finder

Rafi said:


> SCAR lovers are going to be bitterly disappointed (I was one of them).
> 
> Reasons being.
> 
> 1) price - FN is not being flexible on this, so potentially VERY expensive for the PA.
> 
> 2) the PA has a very ambitious modernization and upgrade programme which involves everything from net centric to much better rations. Will be jeopardised by spending too much on a new rifle.
> 
> 3) the Italians have also in mind of CZ have made a much better offer.
> 
> If FN don't humble themselves, they are gonna lose big, and could end of with nothing. With only their own arrogance to blame.


What say you to this Hazrat @Zarvan 

Me thinks CZ + Beretta or CZ x 2.


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## Rafi

Path-Finder said:


> What say you to this Hazrat @Zarvan
> 
> Me thinks CZ + Beretta or CZ x 2.



I think (no disrespect to maulview Saab) that he has a hard on for Scar and is taking it too personal.

Most likely CZ Bren wins the tender outright, less likely CZ wins and a few thousand SCAR or Berreta are purchased off the shelf for SPEC FCS.

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## Path-Finder

Rafi said:


> I think (no disrespect to maulview Saab) that he has a hard on for Scar and is taking it too personal.
> 
> Most likely CZ Bren wins the tender outright, and a few thousand SCAR or Berreta are purchased off the shelf for SPEC FCS.


it is beginning to look like this and i think we should collect chanda to Buy Hazrat a plastic SCAR to cool things down!

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## Rafi

Path-Finder said:


> it is beginning to look like this and i think we should collect chanda to Buy Hazrat a plastic SCAR to cool things down!



Frankly I am at a total loss at why he is in love with the FN produced by those liberal Belgies. Where the lassies are pretty and randy.

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> What say you to this Hazrat @Zarvan
> 
> Me thinks CZ + Beretta or CZ x 2.


BREN is not competing in 7.62 x 51 caliber only SCAR H and Berreta ARX 200 are in game for G3 replacement. We are using two different rifles


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> BREN is not competing in 7.62 x 51 caliber only SCAR H and Berreta ARX 200 are in game for G3 replacement. We are using two different rifles


you are an android!


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## Kompromat

There's a reason why I hardly write on this thread, its full with kids. CZ lost to AK-103, if it gets selected, it will have to do things other than 'performance in trials'. SCAR won the x51 trials by a wide margin, Italians are down to dirty tactics to win the tender. Before ideas, Army team visited Belgium and met with FN reps. @Oscar @balixd 




Zarvan said:


> @Horus have hardly been proven wrong. He keeps quite and enjoys the show sitting behind mostly but he is well connected. So let's wait for the final results. @Rafi

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## Thunder.Storm

Horus said:


> There's a reason why I hardly write on this thread, its full with kids. CZ lost to AK-103, if it gets selected, it will have to do things other than 'performance in trials'. SCAR won the x51 trials by a wide margin, Italians are down to dirty tactics to win the tender. Before ideas, Army team visited Belgium and met with FN reps. @Oscar @balixd


Can you give some detail about how cz lost to ak. thanks

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## Kompromat

Rafi bhai, let me jump in.

There are 2 caliber requirements. 

1: 7.62x39 to replace Type-56, Bren didn't win those trials, their rifle malfunctioned multiple times. The trial was convincingly won by AK-103. 

2. 7.62X51 to replace G-3. 

SCAR-H won the tests by a considerable margin with ARX-200 stumbling behind. 

Terms & Conditions : FN is offering full package, including full technology transfer, training, upgrading the factory tools, associated goodies like UBGLs, grips, even down to red dot sights. FN is also offering full rights to export the rifle after the Pakistani requirements have been satisfied. They are also offering 7.62X51 variant of the Minimi because that tender is also coming up. They have also presented their DMRs for tests. 



Rafi said:


> SCAR lovers are going to be bitterly disappointed (I was one of them).
> 
> Reasons being.
> 
> 1) price - FN is not being flexible on this, so potentially VERY expensive for the PA.
> 
> 2) the PA has a very ambitious modernization and upgrade programme which involves everything from net centric to much better rations. Will be jeopardised by spending too much on a new rifle.
> 
> 3) the Italians have also in mind of CZ have made a much better offer.
> 
> If FN don't humble themselves, they are gonna lose big, and could end of with nothing. With only their own arrogance to blame.



Metallurgy - AK-103 is like a Tank, it works everytime. CZ couldn't beat it. Plus mags are interchangeable with other AKs and the soldiers don't need much training to operate it as its ergonomics are almost identical to Type56.




Thunder.Storm said:


> Can you give some detail about how cz lost to ak. thanks

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## my name is nobody

AK-103 was dropped by user formations. It was too heavy with poor ergonomics. It also failed in accuracy and moreover one of the rifles exploded. Overall the weapon is not what we want.

In 7,62x51 there are three competitors: Beretta ARX-200, CZ BREN (7,62x51), FN SCAR. All three are still under evaluation from different angles. What can be said is that CZ and FN were considered as the weapon platforms we want, whilst Beretta was rejected by formations and had multiple other issues.

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## farhan_9909

my name is nobody said:


> AK-103 was dropped by user formations. It was too heavy with poor ergonomics. It also failed in accuracy and moreover one of the rifles exploded. Overall the weapon is not what we want.
> 
> In 7,62x51 there are three competitors: Beretta ARX-200, CZ BREN (7,62x51), FN SCAR. All three are still under evaluation from different angles. What can be said is that CZ and FN were considered as the weapon platforms we want, whilst Beretta was rejected by formations and had multiple other issues.



Thanks

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## Wolfhound

Horus said:


> Rafi bhai, let me jump in.
> 
> There are 2 caliber requirements.
> 
> 1: 7.62x39 to replace Type-56, Bren didn't win those trials, their rifle malfunctioned multiple times. The trial was convincingly won by AK-103.
> 
> 2. 7.62X51 to replace G-3.
> 
> SCAR-H won the tests by a considerable margin with ARX-200 stumbling behind.
> 
> Terms & Conditions : FN is offering full package, including full technology transfer, training, upgrading the factory tools, associated goodies like UBGLs, grips, even down to red dot sights. FN is also offering full rights to export the rifle after the Pakistani requirements have been satisfied. They are also offering 7.62X51 variant of the Minimi because that tender is also coming up. They have also presented their DMRs for tests.
> 
> 
> 
> Metallurgy - AK-103 is like a Tank, it works everytime. CZ couldn't beat it. Plus mags are interchangeable with other AKs and the soldiers don't need much training to operate it as its ergonomics are almost identical to Type56.


Some of the best news i have heard so far in this thread as of yet! So we just have to kick back and hope for a Scar x39 variant to sweeten the deal even further as it would be ideal to produce a single rifle rather than two.

@Horus why arent we looking at the Scar HAMR IAR instead of the Minimi? Wouldnt it be a more ideal choice with its combined closed and open bolt configuration?

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## LegitimateIdiot

JohnEurope said:


> First of all, I´m Czech, so I lobbing for BREN, but...
> ...I don´t see only one reason, why the PA have to adopt two different types of assault/battle rifles. So if the CZ offer assault rifles, battle rifles, DMR as well, why buy two different rifles? Of course, we still talking only about technical, economic, industry and logistic issues.
> 
> In "assault BREN" and "battle BREN" PA got very similar weapons, with same logistic footprint. Soldiers can migrate between both rifles, without extra training. If soldiers carry both weapon, enemy can not easy recognise, which one soldier carry "assault BREN" or "Battle BREN", even "DMR BREN". And guys with battle rifles (or DMR) are top priority targets for enemies troops.
> 
> One of the most important issue is *sustainability*. The top priority for the PA (In my opinion) have to be sustain the maximum numbers of assault/battle rifles "combat ready" - everywhere, every-time, in all thinkable situations. Of course with the minimum cost and minimum logistic footprint.
> 
> So, I really don´t see only one reason (of course, i´m not talking about political issues) why PA need two (or more) types of small arms.
> 
> One type of assault rifles, battles rifles, DMR, short carbine, etc. substantially enhance combat effective of PA soldiers and reduce logistic footprint (costs, organizational challenges, spare parts, tools, etc.) and simplify training.


you just joined to state that opinion


TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Two CZ officials confirmed CZ 807 BREN (x39) was a finalist (besides SCAR and ARX-200) and Radio Pakistan reported that POF & CZ signed LoU to negotiate sale of small arms. Now @Horus wants us to believe the BS posted above.  On page 1 of this thread, he has praised the selection of BREN (despite hoping for a SCAR entry in x39).
> 
> And no M22 was trialed by PA in x39. Zastava M77 was tested in x51.
> 
> In the pic (L to R): Type 56, FN SCAR-H, Beretta ARX-200 and Zastava M77.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> M77 was the first rifle to get eliminated. AK-103 failed in desert trials.


beautifal


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## Tank131

So today i actually shot both the FN Scar and the ARX100 (Civilian version of the ARX160 which many consider to be better than the follow on ARX200). The SCAR while heavier on the front end shot with far more ease and accuracy and with less recoil which was more predictable. It felt better in the hand vs the ARX and i wasn't as scrunched while shooting (this despite the ambidextrous capabilities of the ARX... AND IM LEFT HANDED). In 1 hr the ARX jammed 1x needing to clear a shell (mind you these were civilian guns (semi auto only) while the scar was smooth functioning the whole way through. This was in a controlled environment inside at a shooting range, and gramted i had never shot AR 15s before, but i felt quite confident with the scar. Id go with the SCAR any day.

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## SQ8

Horus said:


> There's a reason why I hardly write on this thread, its full with kids. CZ lost to AK-103, if it gets selected, it will have to do things other than 'performance in trials'. SCAR won the x51 trials by a wide margin, Italians are down to dirty tactics to win the tender. Before ideas, Army team visited Belgium and met with FN reps. @Oscar @balixd



Which basically means that certain generals and government members are going to have some cash transferred into their accounts pretty soon and their children will live in Dubai High rises and import S-classes here. 

Congratulations to Ak-103 and Beretta.

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## Zarvan

Horus said:


> There's a reason why I hardly write on this thread, its full with kids. CZ lost to AK-103, if it gets selected, it will have to do things other than 'performance in trials'. SCAR won the x51 trials by a wide margin, Italians are down to dirty tactics to win the tender. Before ideas, Army team visited Belgium and met with FN reps. @Oscar @balixd


Well I hope those rifles which have performed best in trials come. If SCAR H and AK-103 have performed best in their categories than I hope even if these companies have to bribe some of our officers who are demanding it than they should do. Because I know it sounds bad but we should first think of our soliders who is going to use these weapons. He should have best weapons not 2nd best or 3rd best. Corruption issue can dealt but first time to get best weapons. If AK-103 has performed best in trials than I hope that the high level Russian delegation which has arrived in Pakistan is for AK-103 and SCAR H if best in 7.62 x 51 replaces G3. @Horus

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## MystryMan

Rafi said:


> Speaking to people involved in the tender, though the SCAR did very well and was the favourite, because it had the trademark factor, but it's down side is its too damn expensive, even if license produced to scale.
> 
> I get the impression (could be wrong) that the PA is hesitant to spend so much money on a new rifle, when CZ is offering something just as good, and in the case of calibre conversion is much better than Scar.
> 
> In fact CZ is offering up front a ton of rifles for new recruits for orientation and SPEC OPS.
> 
> Also they are offering something priceless, a long term close relationship with upgrades, new tech.
> 
> The Italians have also sweetened the pot, but CZ have grabbed the tender by the goolies, it's theirs to lose now.


That's good news. Now waiting anxiously for the official confirmation


----------



## Basel

ahsanhaider said:


> India Scared Again ! Lolllll MUST WATCH and SHARE. Neutral Assessment of Indo-Pak WAR. I request all Patriots to Share!



this video have flaws, as India also have T-90 in good numbers and upgraded T-72s supported by AH-64s gunships.


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## Zarvan

*Pakistan to buy numerous AK-103 assault rifles to Russia*
Pakistan is planning to purchase a big batch of AK-103 assault rifles manufactured by Russia’s Kalashnikov Corporation, a source in the Pakistani Defense Ministry told TASS at the Eurosatory 2016 defense and security international exhibition.

*





Kalashnikov AK-103 assault rifles*

Read furhter details on the link given below 
*
http://www.armyrecognition.com/june...3_assault_rifles_to_russia_tass_32106163.html
*
Old article but still relevant specially as @Horus has suggested that AK-103 was better in 7.62 x 39 category than CZ-807 BREN than this news could be true may for Anti Narcotics Force we are buying them.


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## Muhammad Omar

THE Hell....

Kbhi Bren Kbhi AK


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## Amaa'n

Horus said:


> Rafi bhai, let me jump in.
> 
> There are 2 caliber requirements.
> 
> 1: 7.62x39 to replace Type-56, Bren didn't win those trials, their rifle malfunctioned multiple times. The trial was convincingly won by AK-103.
> 
> 2. 7.62X51 to replace G-3.
> 
> SCAR-H won the tests by a considerable margin with ARX-200 stumbling behind.
> 
> Terms & Conditions : FN is offering full package, including full technology transfer, training, upgrading the factory tools, associated goodies like UBGLs, grips, even down to red dot sights. FN is also offering full rights to export the rifle after the Pakistani requirements have been satisfied. They are also offering 7.62X51 variant of the Minimi because that tender is also coming up. They have also presented their DMRs for tests.
> 
> 
> 
> Metallurgy - AK-103 is like a Tank, it works everytime. CZ couldn't beat it. Plus mags are interchangeable with other AKs and the soldiers don't need much training to operate it as its ergonomics are almost identical to Type56.


Same reason I don't respond to the thread either, plus i have been pretty busy with the work lately..........
You should know better that it is not all about the performance in the trails, Trails will just test the weapon system, the realy bargain will be ON the Table & Under the table 

Although AK rifles are a Tank and rigorous, as I have fired x39 & 12g molot....these rifles are so rough and even charging handle will leave a bruise on your finger ---- Plus I just love the sound of racking back that charging handle on AK and letting it go , but I would like to see Bren being selected.....It has a modular design, you can change the calibre/ barrel length & CZ would be on the bent to offer a better deal than Italians.......
as far as jamming is concerned than G-3 & T56 were never a perfect weapon system and nor is Colt M4......all mass produced rifles have there its & bits ------- with time and effort we can improve on that

my bro advise, better stay in hibernation just as am doing ---no point arguing over here

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## Zarvan

balixd said:


> Same reason I don't respond to the thread either, plus i have been pretty busy with the work lately..........
> You should know better that it is not all about the performance in the trails, Trails will just test the weapon system, the realy bargain will be ON the Table & Under the table
> 
> Although AK rifles are a Tank and rigorous, as I have fired x39 & 12g molot....these rifles are so rough and even charging handle will leave a bruise on your finger ---- Plus I just love the sound of racking back that charging handle on AK and letting it go , but I would like to see Bren being selected.....It has a modular design, you can change the calibre/ barrel length & CZ would be on the bent to offer a better deal than Italians.......
> as far as jamming is concerned than G-3 & T56 were never a perfect weapon system and nor is Colt M4......all mass produced rifles have there its & bits ------- with time and effort we can improve on that
> 
> my bro advise, better stay in hibernation just as am doing ---no point arguing over here


Well that is not fair you despite knowing what is going with the trials and now talks are keeping us guessing. If BREN had passed the tests also and that too with good margin well I have no issue with it coming on 7.62 X 39 caliber. But few months ago there were reports that Pakistan has ordered large number of AK-103 so no idea for which force we ordered those if we ordered them. Secondly what is the situation in 7.62 X 51 category. According to @Horus SCAR H was best but now Berreta is down to dirty games so what news you have Sir @balixd. By the way AK also revealed upgraded AK-103 few years ago


----------



## Tiger Awan

Zarvan said:


> Well that is not fair you despite knowing what is going with the trials and now talks are keeping us guessing. If BREN had passed the tests also and that too with good margin well I have no issue with it coming on 7.62 X 39 caliber. But few months ago there were reports that Pakistan has ordered large number of AK-103 so no idea for which force we ordered those if we ordered them. Secondly what is the situation in 7.62 X 51 category. According to @Horus SCAR H was best but now Berreta is down to dirty games so what news you have Sir @balixd. By the way AK also revealed upgraded AK-103 few years ago



The guns have been discussed to death, now what good is any inside news ?? There will be no change in the performance of the guns if members of this forum are told about the decision earlier. With time Pakistan army will reveal the results and why it chose the gun. Give it a break and wait for official results


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## muhammadali233

As Ak-103 came to the discussion out of no where,this pic had to be posted.

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## Zarvan

Tiger Awan said:


> The guns have been discussed to death, now what good is any inside news ?? There will be no change in the performance of the guns if members of this forum are told about the decision earlier. With time Pakistan army will reveal the results and why it chose the gun. Give it a break and wait for official results


The real question is which Rifles have performed best in our trials and which are we going to select to replace out Type 56 and G3.



muhammadali233 said:


> View attachment 361322
> 
> As Ak-103 came to the discussion out of no where,this pic had to be posted.


Is this picture from Pakistani trials ???? and sorry but AK-103 was among top 5 Rifles which we initially started testing to replace our G3 and Type 56. Although I have reservations on AK-103 because of it being 25 years old but Russian weapons perform best in extreme temperatures.


----------



## muhammadali233

Zarvan said:


> Is this picture from Pakistani trials /QUOTE]
> yes.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Since optics have been coming up quite a bit in the discussion, any idea which optics companies are being considered? The big ones in the reflexive sights (red-dot) industry are Meopta (Czech Republic), Steiner (Italy), Aimpoint (USA), and SIG Sauer (Germany). From what I recall, the average price of reflexive sights from these companies range from $350 to $450. There are also many very low-cost vendors too, but I'm not sure if professional users in the armed forces or law enforcement buy those ones.

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## Path-Finder

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Since optics have been coming up quite a bit in the discussion, any idea which optics companies are being considered? The big ones in the reflexive sights (red-dot) industry are Meopta (Czech Republic), Steiner (Italy), Aimpoint (USA), and SIG Sauer (Germany). From what I recall, the average price of reflexive sights from these companies range from $350 to $450. There are also many very low-cost vendors too, but I'm not sure if professional users in the armed forces or law enforcement buy those ones.



(Aimpoint is Swedish!) Hazrat @Zarvan is in knowledge about some Turkish offering in reflex type optics maybe he can shed some light on their offerings?

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## Zarvan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Since optics have been coming up quite a bit in the discussion, any idea which optics companies are being considered? The big ones in the reflexive sights (red-dot) industry are Meopta (Czech Republic), Steiner (Italy), Aimpoint (USA), and SIG Sauer (Germany). From what I recall, the average price of reflexive sights from these companies range from $350 to $450. There are also many very low-cost vendors too, but I'm not sure if professional users in the armed forces or law enforcement buy those ones.


Sir Pakistan should consider this Turkish company called 3E Dos

http://www.3eeos.com/en/main-page
@Path-Finder

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Sir Pakistan should consider this Turkish company called 3E Dos
> 
> http://www.3eeos.com/en/main-page
> @Path-Finder


Hazrat @Zarvan yes something like 3E EOS AVCI which seems to be a bit like the ELCAN Spectre?


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## Zarvan

@cabatli_53 @Sinan @T-123456 @Neptune @Hakan and other Turkish members can tell about if there are other Turkish companies who make Red Dot Sights also ????

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## Neptune

Zarvan said:


> @cabatli_53 @Sinan @T-123456 @Neptune @Hakan and other Turkish members can tell about if there are other Turkish companies who make Red Dot Sights also ????



Aselsan A960/940?







http://www.aselsan.com.tr/en-us/cap...n-sight-applications/a940-a960-weapons-sights

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## Zarvan

Neptune said:


> Aselsan A960/940?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.aselsan.com.tr/en-us/cap...n-sight-applications/a940-a960-weapons-sights



That is why I see for most weapons in future we need to get them from Turkey with engines from Ukraine. At least weapons of our Army and also soon for Navy. We both can do joint ventures as well as share tech with each other.
@Path-Finder @Bilal Khan (Quwa)

https://www.instagram.com/3e_eos/

This is Instagram account of the company you can see there different products here and man they are dam good 
@Path-Finder @Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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## -SINAN-

Zarvan said:


> @cabatli_53 @Sinan @T-123456 @Neptune @Hakan and other Turkish members can tell about if there are other Turkish companies who make Red Dot Sights also ????



Aselsan.




http://www.aselsan.com.tr/en-us/cap...n-sight-applications/a940-a960-weapons-sights

3E EOS:











Zarvan said:


> That is why I see for most weapons in future we need to get them from Turkey with engines from Ukraine. At least weapons of our Army and also soon for Navy. We both can do joint ventures as well as share tech with each other.
> @Path-Finder @Bilal Khan (Quwa)


About this;

Aselsan opened a factory in Kazakhistan (joint venture) and produces different variants of optics.

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## Gryphon

@Rafi

You reported a (possible) UBGL contract some days back. Do you have any more details ?

@Horus

I have posted excerpts from two articles quoting Martin Sanda & Jakub Sondel in this thread. Take a look. We have reasons to believe AK-103 was out of the race (as of September 2016).


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> That is why I see for most weapons in future we need to get them from Turkey with engines from Ukraine. At least weapons of our Army and also soon for Navy. We both can do joint ventures as well as share tech with each other.
> @Path-Finder @Bilal Khan (Quwa)
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/3e_eos/
> 
> This is Instagram account of the company you can see there different products here and man they are dam good
> @Path-Finder @Bilal Khan (Quwa)


oh s#it! I bet no one noticed this including Hazrat @Zarvan 

https://www.instagram.com/p/BM6RmqihQH6/

I wondered if Turkey was doing research on Next Gen Hybrid Thermal+NV and it appears to be in the works!!! something similar to AN/PSQ 20

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## Kompromat

All of those articles are speculation. GHQ hasn't said anything. We will find out within a few months. 





TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> @Rafi
> 
> You reported a (possible) UBGL contract some days back. Do you have any more details ?
> 
> @Horus
> 
> I have posted excerpts from two articles quoting Martin Sanda & Jakub Sondel in this thread. Take a look. We have reasons to believe AK-103 was out of the race (as of September 2016).

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## Zarvan

Horus said:


> All of those articles are speculation. GHQ hasn't said anything. We will find out within a few months.



So in other words AK-103 have equal chances in fact if it had performed best have more chances of coming in 7.62 x 39 category.



Path-Finder said:


> oh s#it! I bet no one noticed this including Hazrat @Zarvan
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/p/BM6RmqihQH6/
> 
> I wondered if Turkey was doing research on Next Gen Hybrid Thermal+NV and it appears to be in the works!!! something similar to AN/PSQ 20



I noticed it but I had no clue what it was but it looks really good almost like a small computer placed on the rifle. By the way AN\PSQ20 is placed on helmet this one is placed on rifle. Turkey should also develop the one placed on helmet @cabatli_53 @T-123456 @Neptune


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## Path-Finder

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> @Rafi
> 
> You reported a (possible) UBGL contract some days back. Do you have any more details ?
> 
> @Horus
> 
> I have posted excerpts from two articles quoting Martin Sanda & Jakub Sondel in this thread. Take a look. We have reasons to believe AK-103 was out of the race (as of September 2016).


a wild guess it might be 
http://www.mkek.gov.tr/en/Products....nCategory=107&SubCategory=122&SubSubCategory=


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> a wild guess it might be
> http://www.mkek.gov.tr/en/Products....nCategory=107&SubCategory=122&SubSubCategory=



By the way if you visit that instagram page again they have also posted video of this thermal imaging sight you posted about.


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> By the way if you visit that instagram page again they have also posted video of this thermal imaging sight you posted about.


are you impressed with this new technology Hazrat @Zarvan only 3 or 4 countries have developed it!!!


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> are you impressed with this new technology Hazrat @Zarvan only 3 or 4 countries have developed it!!!


I am impressed but I doubt that only 3 to 4 countries have developed it.

Still we need to coportate with this company and either ask them to start there plant in Pakistan or get these with TOT.


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> I am impressed but I doubt that only 3 to 4 countries have developed it.
> 
> Still we need to coportate with this company and either ask them to start there plant in Pakistan or get these with TOT.


well Hazrat @Zarvan this is the British one 





and the image 






3 countries make this new hybrid technology don't know who else make it apart from these three  TOT? no its new tech and getting TOT will be difficult, i expect Shibli to do some in house R&D and make a solution in their labs that would be better!

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> well Hazrat @Zarvan this is the British one
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and the image
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 3 countries make this new hybrid technology don't know who else make it apart from these three  TOT? no its new tech and getting TOT will be difficult, i expect Shibli to do some in house R&D and make a solution in their labs that would be better!



Well than we need to buy them form Turkey and getting them from Turkey won't be a issue. Shilbi will take sometime in coming up with these if the ever manage to do that and we need them now. So better we get them from Turkey. We should have latest optics for both day time and night time for our soldiers along with the new Assault Rifle which ever we select. This would take fighting capabilities of our soldiers to whole new level.


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> well Hazrat @Zarvan this is the British one
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and the image
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 3 countries make this new hybrid technology don't know who else make it apart from these three  TOT? no its new tech and getting TOT will be difficult, i expect Shibli to do some in house R&D and make a solution in their labs that would be better!







By the way isn't it better one at night seems more clear than the one we are talking about. @Path-Finder


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## dr_jawwad71

Came back after few months and the news was waiting. On 2nd of July of this year on my Facebook page named "GunsNbullets " I said that the chances of CZ Brenz 806 are much brighter than Scar or berretta. Because Pakistan is not able to make such a big weapon deal with these well known European companies. I never considered these companies in the competition despite relentless epic rants in the favor of scar and berretta.
My God 205 pages for unconfirmed information and speculations....someone must learn something.

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## Gryphon

Horus said:


> All of those articles are speculation. GHQ hasn't said anything. We will find out within a few months.



But you are well aware of the LoU signed between POF & CZ. Reported by Radio Pakistan. Isn't that enough ?

AFAIK, Russians are reluctant to offer AK-103 production to any country which intends to export (the rifles to a third party).

It happened with India some years back. Izhmash offered local production / assembly for Indian use, not for export.

Correct me, if I am wrong.



Path-Finder said:


> a wild guess it might be
> http://www.mkek.gov.tr/en/Products....nCategory=107&SubCategory=122&SubSubCategory=





Too wild to be true. Visit the link you posted. It is designed for a H&K rifle. For Pakistan Army, the company whose rifles will be produced at POF will likely supply the UBGL's.

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## Zarvan

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> But you are well aware of the LoU signed between POF & CZ. Reported by Radio Pakistan. Isn't that enough ?
> 
> AFAIK, Russians are reluctant to offer AK-103 production to any country which intends to export (the rifles to a third party).
> 
> It happened with India some years back. Izhmash offered local production / assembly for Indian use, not for export.
> 
> Correct me, if I am wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Too wild to be true. Visit the link you posted. It is designed for a H&K rifle. For Pakistan Army, the company whose rifles will be produced at POF will likely supply the UBGL's.


RADIO Pakistan in past few months have posted one wrong news after another. Starting from that Quetta Southern Command was replaced and made CGS and also than posting that we made the deal of 40 attack helicopters with Turkey and few more. Secondly that MOU with CZ could be for handguns because as far I remember Pakistan is also testing HandGuns. So we would have to wait for new months to know about the final results of rifle trials.


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## Gryphon

Zarvan said:


> RADIO Pakistan in past few months have posted one wrong news after another. Starting from that Quetta Southern Command was replaced and made CGS and also than posting that we made the deal of 40 attack helicopters with Turkey and few more. Secondly that MOU with CZ could be for handguns because as far I remember Pakistan is also testing HandGuns. So we would have to wait for new months to know about the final results of rifle trials.



I don't like your idiocy. *Stop quoting me again & again*. Your posts are all BS.

*One incorrect news doesn't make RP unreliable.

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## Zarvan

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> I don't like your idiocy. *Stop quoting me again & again*. Your posts are all BS.
> 
> *One incorrect news doesn't make RP unreliable.


Not one they in past few months have mostly reported wrong news. From CGS replacement to helicopter deal to lot of other news. I don't know what is going on but Radio Pakistan is seriously posting wrong news


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## muhammadali233

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Since optics have been coming up quite a bit in the discussion, any idea which optics companies are being considered? The big ones in the reflexive sights (red-dot) industry are Meopta (Czech Republic), Steiner (Italy), Aimpoint (USA), and SIG Sauer (Germany). From what I recall, the average price of reflexive sights from these companies range from $350 to $450. There are also many very low-cost vendors too, but I'm not sure if professional users in the armed forces or law enforcement buy those ones.


If Ak-103 is selected then
Then these professional sights used by the russians are badass,very tough and rugged.Kobra as a red dot and Kashtan for magnified scope would be the only feasible options.
Kashtan is expensive and retails for 700$








this sight used by the army currently fields which optics?looks like aimpoints comp m3/m4s

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## LegitimateIdiot

Zarvan said:


> Not one they in past few months have mostly reported wrong news. From CGS replacement to helicopter deal to lot of other news. I don't know what is going on but Radio Pakistan is seriously posting wrong news


wait so is the cz 806 bren 2 not being given to our military


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## Zarvan

LegitimateIdiot said:


> wait so is the cz 806 bren 2 not being given to our military


@Horus is saying that we should not believe in any news until our own Army announces it. So yes there is still confusion which Rifle is coming in both categories 7.62 x 39 and 7.62 x 51


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## Naveed66

i think the news regarding selection of CZ 807 BREN is just a rumor. nothing finalised yet
And FN SCAR chances of being selected is decreasing . i am saying this because no country in this world is using FN SCAR as their * service rifle *except belgium since it is their own product. it is very expensive rifle to produce and it is for special forces. And i think either BERETTA ARX 200 or CZ BREN one of them will be selected. *mark my words*


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## Zarvan

Naveed66 said:


> i think the news regarding selection of CZ 807 BREN is just a rumor. nothing finalised yet
> And FN SCAR chances of being selected is decreasing . i am saying this because no country in this world is using FN SCAR as their * service rifle *except belgium since it is their own product. it is very expensive rifle to produce and it is for special forces. And i think either BERETTA ARX 200 or CZ BREN one of them will be selected. *mark my words*


We knew about the costs before starting trials. SCAR has given best performance and SCAR chances are more than that of Berreta from coming.


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## Zarvan

@Horus @balixd Guys do you have any update ?? Or How many more centuries we would have to wait ????


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## untitled

Zarvan said:


> Or How many more centuries we would have to wait ????








----------

Patience

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## Cool_Soldier

patience and become patients.......SCAR.....Breta......Bren....

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## JK!

muhammadali233 said:


> If Ak-103 is selected then
> Then these professional sights used by the russians are badass,very tough and rugged.Kobra as a red dot and Kashtan for magnified scope would be the only feasible options.
> Kashtan is expensive and retails for 700$
> 
> 
> this sight used by the army currently fields which optics?looks like aimpoints comp m3/m4s
> View attachment 361921



During my military service I saw 3 different optical sights used and 2 different night sights.

With Optical sights the trend was at least x4 magnification and they started using a small holographic battle sight mounted on top of it.

With night sights the trend is towards thermal sights more now for night time.

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## SW187

H&K FTW!


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## Zarvan

SW187 said:


> H&K FTW!


HK is not in the competition


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## Pak_Track

muhammadali233 said:


> If Ak-103 is selected then
> Then these professional sights used by the russians are badass,very tough and rugged.Kobra as a red dot and Kashtan for magnified scope would be the only feasible options.
> Kashtan is expensive and retails for 700$this sight used by the army currently fields which optics?looks like aimpoints comp m3/m4s
> View attachment 361921



That's an aimpoint patrol.
Aimpoint is the absolute king of the red dot world.

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## Zarvan

@balixd @Horus When on earth we would hear final announcement ??????


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## ali_raza

tareekh pe tareekh
akhir hamko kab pta chale ga


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## Zarvan

*SCAR topped trials but is reluctant on full tech transfer; ARX200, close 2nd, is likely if issues can't be resolved with FN.*

This is tweet from Mr Ejaz Haider who just recently did program on POF. 

@Horus @Oscar @balixd @Path-Finder @Arsalan


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## ASamiSSG

I think Pakistan should go for SCAR.The key idea of the SCAR modular system, that it will provide the US Special Forces with a wide variety of configurations within the matter of minutes in field conditions. All these configurations have the same layout, controls and maintenance procedures. The SCAR-L and SCAR-H have 90% parts commonality. These weapons are available in three quick-detachable barrel versions - standard (S), close quarters combat (CQC) and long barrel (LB). Different length barrels can be quickly replaced. So this weapon is highly customizable.The FN SCAR modular assault rifle platform was designed from the scratch. It is not based on any previous designs. It is a gas operated, selective fire weapon. There are two baseline models - the SCAR-L (light), chambered for 5.56x45 mm round and the SCAR-H (heavy) chambered for a more powerful 7.62x51 mm ammunition. Other chambering include a Soviet 7.62x39 mm round.

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> *SCAR topped trials but is reluctant on full tech transfer; ARX200, close 2nd, is likely if issues can't be resolved with FN.*
> 
> This is tweet from Mr Ejaz Haider who just recently did program on POF.
> 
> @Horus @Oscar @balixd @Path-Finder @Arsalan









well Hazrat @Zarvan this is it! SCAR may have be best performance but the winner is still to be announced!!!

Hazrat @Zarvan has gotten excited again for SCAR


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> View attachment 366637
> 
> 
> well Hazrat @Zarvan this is it! SCAR may have be best performance but the winner is still to be announced!!!
> 
> Hazrat @Zarvan has gotten excited again for SCAR


SCAR is the best performer because it's without doubt the best Assault Rifle in the world right now. The only surprising thing for me in Ejaz Haider tweet is technology transfer part because what I heard was they are fully ready to do technology transfer well in fact it was our very own @Horus who said this over and over again that SCAR is ready to give us with TOT and also permission to export the weapon so now I am waiting for his response. @balixd

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> SCAR is the best performer because it's without doubt the best Assault Rifle in the world right now. The only surprising thing for me in Ejaz Haider tweet is technology transfer part because what I heard was they are fully ready to do technology transfer well in fact it was our very own @Horus who said this over and over again that SCAR is ready to give us with TOT and also permission to export the weapon so now I am waiting for his response. @balixd


Hazrat @Zarvan as it appears they are not agreeing to TOT and that is why there is no further development in this story! I wish FN paid you some royalty for product endorsement!! so be prepared if the deal with FN does not go through.

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat @Zarvan as it appears they are not agreeing to TOT and that is why there is no further development in this story! I wish FN paid you some royalty for product endorsement!! so be prepared if the deal with FN does not go through.


The SCAR guy who is here for the trials have said they are ready. I don't think it has anything to do with FN not offering full technology I seriously smelling some bribe thing here

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> The SCAR guy who is here for the trials have said they are ready. I don't think it has anything to do with FN not offering full technology I seriously smelling some bribe thing here[/QUOTE]


Now you are conjuring up things from your imagination, which SCAR guy is this please share with us???

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## 50cent

Maybe it's time to make our own rifle why pay billions of dollars for. A rifle or make a HK 416 or fn scar. Or m4 Chinese copy clone . We should follow China just copy everything


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Now you are conjuring up things from your imagination, which SCAR guy is this please share with us???


The SCAR guy who is here for trials. He has talked to some guys of forum in fact is in constant contact with them and have said that SCAR is ready for transfer


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## django

Zarvan said:


> The SCAR guy who is here for trials. He has talked to some guys of forum in fact is in constant contact with them and have said that SCAR is ready for transfer


Let us hope you are correct, if anything less than SCAR I will be

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> The SCAR guy who is here for trials. He has talked to some guys of forum in fact is in constant contact with them and have said that SCAR is ready for transfer


that is not a reputable/credible source that's hearsay !!



django said:


> Let us hope you are correct, if anything less than SCAR I will be


why so much faith in Hazrat @Zarvan ? do you subscribe to hazrats Derwaishi and mufakry

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## django

Path-Finder said:


> that is not a reputable/credible source that's hearsay !!
> 
> 
> why so much faith in Hazrat @Zarvan ? do you subscribe to hazrats Derwaishi and mufakry


Sometimes we need a bit of faith, anyway LET US HOPE he is right, seriously I will be over the moon if we manage to procure SCAR for our Jawans, they deserve the best, they are the ones risking their lives day in, day out, keeping us safe from Hindia, TTP, BLA, NDS......

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## AAhadSSG

The US Special Operations Command(US SOCOM) issued a solicitation for the procurement of SOF CombatAssault Rifles (SCAR)on October 15th, 2003. This solicitation requested a new combat rifle,specially tailored for the current and proposed future needs of the US Special Forces,which are somewhat different from latest generic US Army requirements,which are being fulfilled by the newest Heckler-KochXM8 assault rifle. The key difference in basic requirements between XM8 and SCAR is that, while XM8 is a single-caliber weapon system, tailored for 5.56x45mm NATO ammunition, the SCAR should be available in various different calibers.Initial SOF requirements included two basic versions of SCAR system - the SCAR Light (SCAR-L), available in 5.56mm NATO, and the SCAR Heavy (SCAR-H), which should be initially available in significantly more powerful 7.62x51 NATO chambering, and should be easily adaptable in the field to other chamberings. These other chamberings initially include the well-spread 7.62x39 M43 ammunition of the Soviet / Russian origins, and probably some others (like the proposed 6.8x43 Remington SPC cartridge, especially developed for US Special Forces).The keyidea of SCAR rifle system is that it will provide the Special Forces operators with wide variety of options, from short-barreled 5.56mm SCAR-L CQC variation,tailored for urban close combat, and up to long range 7.62x51 SCAR-HSnipervariant, as well as 7.62x39 SCAR-H, which will accept "battlefield pickup" AK-47/AKM magazines with 7.62 M43 ammunition, available during the operations behind the enemy lines. Both SCAR-L and SCAR-H shall be initially available in three versions, Standard(S), Close Quarters Combat (CQC) and Sniper Variant(SV; now it is dubbed Long Barrel - LB). All these variants, regardless the caliber and exact configuration, will provide the operator with the same controls layout, same handling and maintenance procedures, and same optional equipment, such as sights,scopes, and other current and future attachments.
Late in 2004 USSOCOM announced, that the winner for the initial SCAR contracts is the FN USA, an US-based subsidiary of the famous Belgian company Fabrique Nationale Herstal. prototype rifles were manufactured by FN Manufacturing Inc, US-based subsidiary to FN Herstal;

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## Kompromat

FN rep told me that they are offering full transfer to technology and re-export rights.

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## Path-Finder

Horus said:


> FN rep told me that they are offering full transfer to technology and re-export rights.


Then is the hurdle financial? or something else brewing!


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## ali_raza

Horus said:


> FN rep told me that they are offering full transfer to technology and re-export rights.


sir plz let us know if u have any news about the winners


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Then is the hurdle financial? or something else brewing!


I told you Berreta is down to dirty tricks now

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> I told you Berreta is down to dirty tricks now


Hazrat that is called business! It's winners take all!! Italians doing business make sense lets see how Belgians conduct business.

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat that is called business! It's winners take all!! Italians doing business make sense lets see how Belgians conduct business.


Bribing doesn't come in business

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## Naif al Hilali

Hope they will pick the FN for the battle rifle role at least.

Should probably have stuck with AK for assault rifles.

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Bribing doesn't come in business


I didn't say bribe! I said business how you market and sell your product, FN didn't do well in France either and lost to HK because they had a better business strategy!! Two different things bribe and business strategy!!!

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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> *SCAR topped trials but is reluctant on full tech transfer; ARX200, close 2nd, is likely if issues can't be resolved with FN.*
> 
> This is tweet from Mr Ejaz Haider who just recently did program on POF.
> 
> @Horus @Oscar @balixd @Path-Finder @Arsalan


not sure about this "reluctant for transfer" part. hearing otherwise. Also the "topped the trials" is not an accurate statement!


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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> not sure about this "reluctant for transfer" part. hearing otherwise. Also the "topped the trials" is not an accurate statement!


I am now more against Berreta since I have read about its weight. Berreta even without magazine is 4.5 KG that is way to heavy

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> I am now more against Berreta since I have read about its weight. Berreta even without magazine is 4.5 KG that is way to heavy


Hazrat @Zarvan where did you get this fact from that Beretta empty is 4.5 kg? did you dream it?

Beretta empty with magazine is 3.9kg
SCAR empty without a mag is 3.7kg <without magazine!!!

a difference of 200 grams when empty!!!

http://www.fnherstal.com/primary-me...a/product/182/232/182/1/_/fn-scarR-h-cqc.html

http://www.berettadefensetechnologi...ontent/specs/beretta-arx200-assault-rifle.pdf

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## LegitimateIdiot

Path-Finder said:


> View attachment 366637
> 
> 
> well Hazrat @Zarvan this is it! SCAR may have be best performance but the winner is still to be announced!!!
> 
> Hazrat @Zarvan has gotten excited again for SCAR


well the arx is actually really is heavy



galaxy_surfer said:


> Maybe it's time to make our own rifle why pay billions of dollars for. A rifle or make a HK 416 or fn scar. Or m4 Chinese copy clone . We should follow China just copy everything


we are not like that



Zarvan said:


> I am now more against Berreta since I have read about its weight. Berreta even without magazine is 4.5 KG that is way to heavy


cz 806 bren 2 would be a better choice right


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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> I am now more against Berreta since I have read about its weight. Berreta even without magazine is 4.5 KG that is way to heavy


That is not right either. The empty weight is NOT 4.5Kg!


Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat that is called business! It's winners take all!! Italians doing business make sense lets see how Belgians conduct business.


That is what i have been crying about for what seems like ages now!!! 
At the end of the day, it is all BUSINESS!! It always was!!
Trials have given two names with a close third one as guns we are ok with. In these selected ootiins the compitition is purely a business deal. It is quite simple if people wanted to understand this. 
Thankyou for trying to explain it, AGAIN!

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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> That is not right either. The empty weight is NOT 4.5Kg!
> 
> That is what i have been crying about for what seems like ages now!!!
> At the end of the day, it is all BUSINESS!! It always was!!
> Trials have given two names with a close third one as guns we are ok with. In these selected ootiins the compitition is purely a business deal. It is quite simple if people wanted to understand this.
> Thankyou for trying to explain it, AGAIN!


Problems is Italians are not doing business they are doing exactly same thing for which Indians banned them 
@Path-Finder

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## PAR 5

The Belgians will never agree to a full ToT. Italians will also not agree to a full ToT. As I mentioned before, Pakistan will have to buy a hefty quantity of rifles of-the shelf (maybe around 200-500k units) before any of the two above agree to perhaps a partial ToT. I do not see this procurement going anywhere in the near future also as the funding position of the Armed Forces at this stage is also bleak.

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## Path-Finder

PAR 5 said:


> The Belgians will never agree to a full ToT. Italians will also not agree to a full ToT. As I mentioned before, Pakistan will have to buy a hefty quantity of rifles of-the shelf (maybe around 200-500k units) before any of the two above agree to perhaps a partial ToT. I do not see this procurement going anywhere in the near future also as the funding position of the Armed Forces at this stage is also bleak.


Hazrat @Zarvan now what this person here has said makes sense if it doesn't then........TOT has conditions attached to it! Now these conditions are called conducting business! Giving TOT means your hard work and R&D has been given away for free. So there needs to be a purchase of their product from their original factory and then TOT comes after WITH strings attached.......

secondly you still haven't cleared as how you came up with Beretta weighing 4.5KG empty either??


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## Zarvan

PAR 5 said:


> The Belgians will never agree to a full ToT. Italians will also not agree to a full ToT. As I mentioned before, Pakistan will have to buy a hefty quantity of rifles of-the shelf (maybe around 200-500k units) before any of the two above agree to perhaps a partial ToT. I do not see this procurement going anywhere in the near future also as the funding position of the Armed Forces at this stage is also bleak.


We started testing only after we made sure we had the funds to go for it. Army leadership didn't woke up one day and decided to go for rifle trials without doing any calculation. Every was fully planned before. Only thing which is taking time is tech transfer issue and few others. If FN fully agrees than we would go for it and as far as I know FN are offering full tech and permission to export. So we can hear about the winner really soon. 
@Path-Finder

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## PAR 5

Zarvan said:


> We started testing only after we made sure we had the funds to go for it. Army leadership didn't woke up one day and decided to go for rifle trials without doing any calculation. Every was fully planned before. Only thing which is taking time is tech transfer issue and few others. If FN fully agrees than we would go for it and as far as I know FN are offering full tech and permission to export. So we can hear about the winner really soon.
> @Path-Finder



We started testing because we had been 'promised' funds under SADA funding from the Government. Currently that 'promise' is not coming through with only trickle amounts being released for some other projects. I know you are partial to FN and indeed its a good weapon. But I have stated my on-ground experience in these matters and am not at all optimistic about the selection happening in the near future.

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> We started testing only after we made sure we had the funds to go for it. Army leadership didn't woke up one day and decided to go for rifle trials without doing any calculation. Every was fully planned before. Only thing which is taking time is tech transfer issue and few others. If FN fully agrees than we would go for it and as far as I know FN are offering full tech and permission to export. So we can hear about the winner really soon.
> @Path-Finder


Hazrat @Zarvan do you have sources in the finance ministry as well? I planned a journey to Scotland but there was snow and i had to stop, which is considered a hurdle. Now you are saying that rifle procurement is simply going into a shop and purchasing it like bread or other convenience, but you see we are not just buying the bread but rather importing a bread making factory!! two different things!! you make a budget for a fixed price item and purchase with the capital you have but this is purchasing the plant to make it your self which is where business needs conducting!!!

still you haven't cleared up how you came up with Beretta weighing 4.5KG empty either??



PAR 5 said:


> We started testing because we had been 'promised' funds under SADA funding from the Government. Currently that 'promise' is not coming through with only trickle amounts being released for some other projects. I know you are partial to FN and indeed its a good weapon. But I have stated my on-ground experience in these matters and am not at all optimistic about the selection happening in the near future.


Hazrat @Zarvan


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Did anyone look into the supposed letter-of-understanding POF signed with CZ for small-arms?

_The 3rd LOU was signed between POF and M/s. CeskaZbrojovka, Czech Republic. According to LOU M/s. CeskaZbrojovka, Czech Republic and Pakistan Ordnance Factories declared that they will intensively negotiate a delivery of complete technology for the production of small arms to Pakistan Ordnance Factories, POF. Mutual interest refers to gradual launching of production in Pakistan, ranging from light assembly to maximum localization of production. Within this cooperation, transfer of technology as well as technical support including technical training of the personnel for Pakistan Ordnance Factories is expected._

http://www.radio.gov.pk/24-Nov-2016...-signed-during-ideas-2016-underway-in-karachi

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## Thunder.Storm

@Zarvan @Path-Finder @LegitimateIdiot @Arsalan check out the weight given by Beretta in second page...


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## Path-Finder

maybe you can include SCAR data as well for comparison @Thunder.Storm

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## Thunder.Storm

Path-Finder said:


> maybe you can include SCAR data as well for comparison @Thunder.Storm


here is scar weight high lightened below which is taken from offical website 







@Zarvan

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## Path-Finder

Thunder.Storm said:


> here is scar weight high lightened below which is taken from offical website
> View attachment 367182
> View attachment 367183
> 
> @Zarvan


My maths is weak so the weight difference is..........negligible? one with empty mag and one without mag!

Hazrat @Zarvan


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## Mick

Zarvan said:


> Bribing doesn't come in business


I am sorry, but have you any evidence of what you are suggesting?
It is a really serius insinuation...


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## Thunder.Storm

Path-Finder said:


> My maths is weak so the weight difference is..........negligible? one with empty mag and one without mag!
> 
> Hazrat @Zarvan


you are right not a big difference. personally i also like the FN but the chances for arx is increasing day by day. and in my opinion arx is going to win.


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## Path-Finder

Thunder.Storm said:


> you are right not a big difference. personally i also like the FN but the chances for arx is increasing day by day. and in my opinion arx is going to win.


let me let you into a little secret which I pose as as a question. 3 rifles BREN SCAR & ARX not theirs aesthetic appearance i.e what they look like! But the inner mechanism can you find a difference in them? all three rifle and their inner mechanisms?



Mick said:


> I am sorry, but have you any evidence of what you are suggesting?
> It is a really serius insinuation...



 Hazrat @Zarvan you have really annoyed the Italians. hahaha

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## Tiger Awan

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat @Zarvan you have really annoyed the Italians. hahaha



Anything that stops us from buying SCAR is unfair and bad. The obsession is amazing

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## TheDarkKnight

Thunder.Storm said:


> here is scar weight high lightened below which is taken from offical website
> View attachment 367182
> View attachment 367183
> 
> @Zarvan


The highlighted weight is of the CQC (close quarter combat) with a shorter barrel length of 13in. The standard version with 16in barrel weighs around 3.7 kg, as has been stated earlier.

Regards

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## Zarvan

Tiger Awan said:


> Anything that stops us from buying SCAR is unfair and bad. The obsession is amazing


SCAR has performed best in trials and many units have tested SCAR and now if you give them Berreta as there rifle what will happen to that soldier who knows this Rifle is not the best.


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> SCAR has performed best in trials and many units have tested SCAR and now if you give them Berreta as there rifle what will happen to that soldier who knows this Rifle is not the best.


 Hazrat @Zarvan forget your personal like and dislike you are avoiding the questions posed to you and annoyed a Italian  as well!! Dont just monitor this thread lets hear why ARX weighs 1KG heavier than stated??

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat @Zarvan forget your personal like and dislike you are avoiding the questions posed to you and annoyed a Italian  as well!! Dont just monitor this thread lets hear why ARX weighs 1KG heavier than stated??


On most Rifle websites the weight was written 4.5 KG that is why I said that it's 4.5 KG

http://modernfirearms.net/assault/it/arx-200-e.html

*Caliber*

7.62x51 NATO

*Action*

Gas operated

*Length, mm*

730 / 890-1000

*Barrel length, mm*

408

*Weight, kg*

4.5

*Rate of fire, rounds/minute*

?

*Magazine capacity, rounds*


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> On most Rifle websites the weight was written 4.5 KG that is why I said that it's 4.5 KG
> 
> http://modernfirearms.net/assault/it/arx-200-e.html



 sorry to say Hazrat @Zarvan you were wrong  The Official website proved you wrong



Zarvan said:


> On most Rifle websites the weight was written 4.5 KG that is why I said that it's 4.5 KG
> 
> http://modernfirearms.net/assault/it/arx-200-e.html
> 
> *Caliber*
> 
> 7.62x51 NATO
> 
> *Action*
> 
> Gas operated
> 
> *Length, mm*
> 
> 730 / 890-1000
> 
> *Barrel length, mm*
> 
> 408
> 
> *Weight, kg*
> 
> 4.5
> 
> *Rate of fire, rounds/minute*
> 
> ?
> 
> *Magazine capacity, rounds*


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## Mick

Path-Finder said:


> let me let you into a little secret which I pose as as a question. 3 rifles BREN SCAR & ARX not theirs aesthetic appearance i.e what they look like! But the inner mechanism can you find a difference in them? all three rifle and their inner mechanisms?
> 
> 
> 
> Hazrat @Zarvan you have really annoyed the Italians. hahaha


Sorry again, He has not annoined the italians (I suppose really a small number of italians actually follow/read this forum)
He has annoied me. Probably he has been affacted by some indian viruses 
Actually I do not care so much about Beretta winning this or other specific contract. (By the way Beretta has just sold ARX200 partial licence production to Argentina: about 50000 rifles) 
I have great respect of Pak army and I am resonably sure they will choose the most cost/effective solution.
Anyway I have got no answer from Zarvan... this is enough

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## Tiger Awan

Zarvan said:


> SCAR has performed best in trials and many units have tested SCAR and now if you give them Berreta as there rifle what will happen to that soldier who knows this Rifle is not the best.


Pretty sure our soldiers are not as emotional as you are regarding SCAR  and if they are given some other platform (which will surely be an improvement over G3) they will be happy

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## Zarvan

Tiger Awan said:


> Pretty sure our soldiers are not as emotional as you are regarding SCAR  and if they are given some other platform (which will surely be an improvement over G3) they will be happy


It's not about being emotional It's about when you have tested something and you are given that one which you didn't recommended it doesn't sound good


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## Tiger Awan

Zarvan said:


> It's not about being emotional It's about when you have tested something and you are given that one which you didn't recommended it doesn't sound good



and who exactly said its not recommended ??


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## Path-Finder

Mick said:


> Sorry again, He has not annoined the italians (I suppose really a small number of italians actually follow/read this forum)
> He has annoied me. Probably he has been affacted by some indian viruses
> Actually I do not care so much about Beretta winning this or other specific contract. (By the way Beretta has just sold ARX200 partial licence production to Argentina: about 50000 rifles)
> I have great respect of Pak army and I am resonably sure they will choose the most cost/effective solution.
> Anyway I have got no answer from Zarvan... this is enough


Welcome to the forum and enjoy the drama

Hazrat @Zarvan any response or you keeping quite on purpose


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## HANI

SCAR will be a nice option for PA

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## Zarvan

@Horus For love of GOD will we know about the winner this year or in this century ????????????


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## fitpOsitive

Some body is saying that CZ-806 Bren -2 is selected. Really?


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## Path-Finder

fitpOsitive said:


> Some body is saying that CZ-806 Bren -2 is selected. Really?


SCAR is the best rifle! rest are not even worthy to be in SCAR's shadow

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## Zarvan

fitpOsitive said:


> Some body is saying that CZ-806 Bren -2 is selected. Really?


We are looking to replace both Type 56 and G3. For Type 56 replacment there were reports that Pakistan has selected BREN 807 but @Horus says not to believe this news.

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> SCAR is the best rifle! rest are not even worthy to be in SCAR's shadow


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## Naveed66

Zarvan said:


> We are looking to replace both Type 56 and G3. For Type 56 replacment there were reports that Pakistan has selected BREN 807 but @Horus says not to believe this news.


horus have been proven wrong few times in this thread..

i am a big fan of FN SCAR But in pakistan case it look like ARX200 is ahead at the moment. Plus FN is not willing for tech transfer as mr ejaz haider told you before. it is also due to the fact that BERETTA have just sold ARX200 to argentina..So it seem ARX200 is winning. as i mention before im a big fan of SCAR but reality is reality


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## Zarvan

Naveed66 said:


> horus have been proven wrong few times in this thread..
> 
> i am a big fan of FN SCAR But in pakistan case it look like ARX200 is ahead at the moment. Plus FN is not willing for tech transfer as mr ejaz haider told you before. it is also due to the fact that BERETTA have just sold ARX200 to argentina..So it seem ARX200 is winning. as i mention before im a big fan of SCAR but reality is reality


I seriously doubt Ejaz Haider claims. The representative of SCAR who is in Pakistan has again and again told that they are ready for full tech transfer and also permission to export those weapons. So I doubt tech transfer is a issue


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## Naveed66

Zarvan said:


> I seriously doubt Ejaz Haider claims. The representative of SCAR who is in Pakistan has again and again told that they are ready for full tech transfer and also permission to export those weapons. So I doubt tech transfer is a issue


But he is a Journalist who recently did a show on POF.. i think there are still some hopes for SCAR but less than ARX200.

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## Zarvan

Naveed66 said:


> But he is a Journalist who recently did a show on POF.. i think there are still some hopes for SCAR but less than ARX200.


I know Pakistan journalists and How much they know about defence matters


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## Zarvan

@Path-Finder

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## Zarvan



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## Gryphon

*PhDr. Ondrej Podel* (Head of Project Pakistan, CZ) has told @TheOccupiedKashmir that "CZ has performed extraordinarily well in both categories and is the only company which is offering (and had tested) full package to Pakistan Army. We consider Pakistan along with our own Army as our key and most important partner and we are working with your army on tailored and customized solution, because this is what we believe [the] most effective approach as every army has different demands and needs."

He added that "Regarding [the] LOU between CZ and POF, we cannot comment on the ongoing negotiation, however there was [a] press release in Radio Pakistan about general meaning of our mutual intentions to cooperate with POF especially in terms of transfer our latest and most advanced technology to Pakistan."

Image Copyright: CZ






Image Copyright: CZ






@Areesh @Path-Finder @Horus @Rafi @HRK @Suff Shikan @Oscar @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Devil Soul @Windjammer @Manticore @DESERT FIGHTER @TheDarkKnight @Khafee @Ulla

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## 50cent

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Image Copyright: CZ


Congrats. Czbren is winner. Bye Bye FN scar

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## ZedZeeshan

galaxy_surfer said:


> Congrats. Czbren is winner. Bye Bye FN scar


and this will replace G3..??


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## Path-Finder

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> *PhDr. Ondrej Podel* (Head of Project Pakistan, CZ) has told @TheOccupiedKashmir that "CZ has performed extraordinarily well in both categories and is the only company which is offering (and had tested) full package to Pakistan Army. We consider Pakistan along with our own Army as our key and most important partner and we are working with your army on tailored and customized solution, because this is what we believe [the] most effective approach as every army has different demands and needs."
> 
> He added that "Regarding [the] LOU between CZ and POF, we cannot comment on the ongoing negotiation, however there was [a] press release in Radio Pakistan about general meaning of our mutual intentions to cooperate with POF especially in terms of transfer our latest and most advanced technology to Pakistan."
> 
> Image Copyright: CZ
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Image Copyright: CZ
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Areesh @Path-Finder @Horus @Rafi @HRK @Suff Shikan @Oscar @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Devil Soul @Windjammer @Manticore @DESERT FIGHTER @TheDarkKnight @Khafee @Ulla


Before jumping for joy and Hazrat @Zarvan not being tagged  in your post! you underline both categories? what direction is this taking? what does both categories entail? 

SCAR is the best performing in trials


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## Gryphon

Path-Finder said:


> Before jumping for joy and Hazrat @Zarvan not being tagged  in your post! you underline both categories? what direction is this taking? what does both categories entail?
> 
> SCAR is the best performing in trials



The first pic posted above shows the full chart from IDEAS 2016. Earlier, some members disputed it was a x51 CZ 807. Now, they will not. 

By 'both categories', the CZ official probably meant x39 and x51.

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> SCAR has performed best in the trials don't denial or laughing won't change it. Now the talks are for other things. But in field and in characteristic SCAR is best. Your denial won't change it. And most credible MODS of this forum suggest that BREN is only competing in 7.62 X 39 category not 7.62 X 51.


Hazrat @Zarvan is accepting that a x51 BREN is in existence but yet to be unveiled to the public denial as well? Hazrat these are rifle trials not a court case for land rights! but don't worry I will be good to your love. 

SCAR is the best rifle in Trials 



TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> The first pic posted above shows the full chart from IDEAS 2016. Earlier, some members disputed it was a x51 CZ 807. Now, they will not.
> 
> By 'both categories', the CZ official meant x39 and x51.


you are on Hazrat @Zarvan list of people who will not get a eid card from him now!!  I suppose we need to wait for the unveiling of BREN 807 with a x51 magazine.

SCAR is the best rifle in Trials

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## Gryphon

Path-Finder said:


> I suppose we need to wait for the unveiling of BREN 807 with a x51 magazine.



Look at the top of the chart.

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat @Zarvan is accepting that a x51 BREN is in existence but yet to be unveiled to the public denial as well? Hazrat these are rifle trials not a court case for land rights! but don't worry I will be good to your love.
> 
> SCAR is the best rifle in Trials
> 
> 
> you are on Hazrat @Zarvan list of people who will not get a eid card from him now!!  I suppose we need to wait for the unveiling of BREN 807 with a x51 magazine.
> 
> SCAR is the best rifle in Trials



I am not until they show it. If BREN was participating in 7.62 X 51 category why they are not showing the Gun. It's a dam Gun not a nuclear weapon for love of GOD. Till now BREN has shown 5.56 and 7.62 X 39 caliber Assault Rifles I would believe X 51 exists when I see it. Also all other members are denying that BREN is participating in X 51 category including MODS.



TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Look at the top of the chart.


Yes and I salute the Guy who is calling 7.62 X 39 Rifle 7.62 X 51


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## Army research

Zarvan said:


> I am not until they show it. If BREN was participating in 7.62 X 51 category why they are not showing the Gun. It's a dam Gun not a nuclear weapon for love of GOD. Till now BREN has shown 5.56 and 7.62 X 39 caliber Assault Rifles I would believe X 51 exists when I see it. Also all other members are denying that BREN is participating in X 51 category including MODS.
> 
> 
> Yes and I salute the Guy who is calling 7.62 X 39 Rifle 7.62 X 51


Sir jee, look at the picture thoroughly. Zoom in at various points it says .51 and why do you care so much whether they show it or not , probably deal was sealed of a customized pakistani version and they were showing .39 for general marketing at IDEAS

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## The Eagle

Zarvan said:


> Yes and I salute the Guy who is calling 7.62 X 39 Rifle 7.62 X 51



Bro, chart stating 7.62 x 51 cartridge used.... that the gun existed, trialed and offered hence presentation on stall. What on earth makes them CZ to play fool like this... It's a serious business here..... Also, as read it that CZ 807 is with flexible option on two places to turn it into 7.62 x 51 by replacing the mag insertion and ejector cap I think..... However, 807 in picture is displayed with 7.62 x 39 configuration...... by the same logic if 7.62x39 wasn't displayed but x51, will take it as x39 doesn't exist, obviously Not.... wanted to say for much clearer understanding...

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## Zarvan

Army research said:


> Sir jee, look at the picture thoroughly. Zoom in at various points it says .51 and why do you care so much whether they show it or not , probably deal was sealed of a customized pakistani version and they were showing .39 for general marketing at IDEAS


Yes but with that they have also written CZ 807 and CZ 807 is 7.62 X 39 caliber rifle not 7.62 X 51 caliber. This Chart and entire presentation done here is showing bad picture of BREN as a company



The Eagle said:


> Bro, chart stating 7.62 x 51 cartridge used.... that the gun existed, trialed and offered hence presentation on stall. What on earth makes them CZ to play fool like this... It's a serious business here..... Also, as read it that CZ 807 is with flexible option on two places to turn it into 7.62 x 51 by replacing the mag insertion and ejector cap I think..... However, 807 in picture is displayed with 7.62 x 39 configuration...... by the same logic if 7.62x39 wasn't displayed but x51, will take it as x39 doesn't exist, obviously Not.... wanted to say for much clearer understanding...
> 
> View attachment 369381


Ask them if they could have used IDEAS 2016 to display new CZ 807 7.62 x 39 caliber Rifle why they didn't showed 7.62 X 51 Caliber Gun why hide it when pakistan is looking for both caliber Guns


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## The Eagle

Zarvan said:


> Ask them if they could have used IDEAS 2016 to display new CZ 807 7.62 x 39 caliber Rifle why they didn't showed 7.62 X 51 Caliber Gun why hide it when pakistan is looking for both caliber Guns



As far as I understand, 7.62x51 is not a whole new gun but with couple of replacement, the same 7.62x39 becomes 7.62x51. Basic weapon is the same but couple of changes makes them to fall in different category like a multi-role single gun. So for the display, it would have been like the same gun but with different mags and there is no other difference. It is basically a flexible platform that user can convert the same into any caliber like 5.56 to 7.62X39 or x51 as needed that says, there is no need to change the gun but required parts like coking bolt and mag inserting area/holder.

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## Tiger Awan

A guy deeply in love with SCAR is right about the picture

BREN and the management at IDEAS all got it wrong. It was not 7.62x51 but 7.62x39

After all what BREN knows about arms and different calibres. @Zarvan thanks for correcting WHOLE WORLD

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## Zarvan

Tiger Awan said:


> A guy deeply in love with SCAR is right about the picture
> 
> BREN and the management at IDEAS all got it wrong. It was not 7.62x51 but 7.62x39
> 
> After all what BREN knows about arms and different calibres. @Zarvan thanks for correcting WHOLE WORLD



They could have shown 7.62 X 51 caliber Rifle in front of the chart but they didn't. They show CZ 807 7.62 X 39 caliber Rifle so they themselves are mockery of themselves not me. If BREN 7.62 X 51 has given so phenomenal performance in trials it was time to present the Rifle and use IDEAS 2016 to do it.

Just talked to @Horus on twitter and he says that this 7.62 X 51 is DMR


----------



## Tiger Awan

Zarvan said:


> They could have shown 7.62 X 51 caliber Rifle in front of the chart but they didn't. They show CZ 807 7.62 X 39 caliber Rifle so they themselves are mockery of themselves not me. If BREN 7.62 X 51 has given so phenomenal performance in trials it was time to present the Rifle and use IDEAS 2016 to do it.



They are not trying to sell it to extra skeptical guy like you or they would have. Poor souls


----------



## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> I am not until they show it. If BREN was participating in 7.62 X 51 category why they are not showing the Gun. It's a dam Gun not a nuclear weapon for love of GOD. Till now BREN has shown 5.56 and 7.62 X 39 caliber Assault Rifles I would believe X 51 exists when I see it. Also all other members are denying that BREN is participating in X 51 category including MODS.
> 
> 
> Yes and I salute the Guy who is calling 7.62 X 39 Rifle 7.62 X 51


Hazrat @Zarvan this is a rifle trial and you are acting like nauzubillah we are contradicting Quran Hadith & Sunnah!! Why is this so personal for you? secondly They have displayed a BREN 807 with a x39 setup that can possibly be chambered in x51 as well! I am pretty that @TheOccupiedKashmir would not make up such tall claims.

But for your sake; SCAR is the best rifle in Trials 



TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Look at the top of the chart.


According to Hazrat @Zarvan the CZ people are morons and they have written x51 instead of x39 a mistake they have made three times on the chart  once on the top and twice on the bottom right where it's mentioned as 7.62x51 and 0.308 Win

SCAR is the best rifle in Trials 



Zarvan said:


> They could have shown 7.62 X 51 caliber Rifle in front of the chart but they didn't. They show CZ 807 7.62 X 39 caliber Rifle so they themselves are mockery of themselves not me. If BREN 7.62 X 51 has given so phenomenal performance in trials it was time to present the Rifle and use IDEAS 2016 to do it.
> 
> Just talked to @Horus on twitter and he says that this 7.62 X 51 is DMR


Hazrat @Zarvan you are still not grasping it! The Rifle BREN 807 displayed as x39 can also be modded to chamber and fire x51!!! as in the chassis can support a barrel change magwell change and bolt carrier change to make it x51. making it modular rifle!!!

SCAR is the best rifle in Trials


----------



## Gryphon

Path-Finder said:


> According to Hazrat @Zarvan the CZ people are morons and they have written x51 instead of x39 a mistake they have made three times on the chart  once on the top and twice on the bottom right where it's mentioned as 7.62x51 and 0.308 Win
> 
> SCAR is the best rifle in Trials



As the official said '*CZ has performed extraordinarily well in both categories and is the only company which is offering (and had tested) full package to Pakistan Army*' and also confirmed the LoU, I am waiting for experts / insiders (or whatever you call them) to take a look.

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## Zarvan

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> As the official said '*CZ has performed extraordinarily well in both categories and is the only company which is offering (and had tested) full package to Pakistan Army*' and also confirmed the LoU, I am waiting for experts / insiders (or whatever you call them) to take a look.


I already asked them and @Horus says that 7.62 X 51 of BREN is DMR not Assault Rifle to replace G3.


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> I already asked them and @Horus says that 7.62 X 51 of BREN is DMR not Assault Rifle to replace G3.


can you Hazrat @Zarvan post their reply here since you asked CZ? so we can reach a conclusion on who is talking porkie pies. you SCAR extremist 



Army research said:


> Sir jee, look at the picture thoroughly. Zoom in at various points it says .51 and why do you care so much whether they show it or not , probably deal was sealed of a customized pakistani version and they were showing .39 for general marketing at IDEAS





Tiger Awan said:


> A guy deeply in love with SCAR is right about the picture
> 
> BREN and the management at IDEAS all got it wrong. It was not 7.62x51 but 7.62x39
> 
> After all what BREN knows about arms and different calibres. @Zarvan thanks for correcting WHOLE WORLD



SCAR is the best rifle in Trials 



Zarvan said:


> I already asked them and @Horus says that 7.62 X 51 of BREN is DMR not Assault Rifle to replace G3.


sorry I misread that! So CZ BREN from not being in the competition for x51 is now in it as DMR? before it was it not at all competing for x51 trials and just x39 trials to DMR? That is a great big U turn Hazrat @Zarvan

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> can you Hazrat @Zarvan post their reply here since you asked CZ? so we can reach a conclusion on who is talking porkie pies. you SCAR extremist
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SCAR is the best rifle in Trials
> 
> 
> sorry I misread that! So CZ BREN not being in the competition for x51 is now in it as DMR? before it was it not at all competing for x51 trials and just x39 trials to DMR? That is a great big U turn Hazrat @Zarvan


https://twitter.com/Yulghar 
Check here



Path-Finder said:


> can you Hazrat @Zarvan post their reply here since you asked CZ? so we can reach a conclusion on who is talking porkie pies. you SCAR extremist
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SCAR is the best rifle in Trials
> 
> 
> sorry I misread that! So CZ BREN not being in the competition for x51 is now in it as DMR? before it was it not at all competing for x51 trials and just x39 trials to DMR? That is a great big U turn Hazrat @Zarvan


I said what @Horus told me. He has good contacts and he is insisting that BREN is not competing to replace G3. It's only in competition for Type 56 for G3 it's Berreta ARX 200 and SCAR H

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> https://twitter.com/Yulghar
> Check here
> 
> 
> I said what @Horus told me. He has good contacts and he is insisting that BREN is not competing to replace G3. It's only in competition for Type 56 for G3 it's Berreta ARX 200 and SCAR H


have you got the specific tweet instead of me plowing through so many tweets and secondly I rather have it from official sources like CZ or PA!!

unless i am wrong Horus mentioned that Ak103 performed better after it had been dropped and yet earlier we were told it didn't perform that well. that threw more confusion into the mix rather than clarifying anything!

Now DMR will be x51 and DMR currently is what rifle G3? so you have gone from NO, BREN is only in x39 to DMR which is always x51?? can you see the tectonic shift in your arguments?


----------



## Tiger Awan

Path-Finder said:


> have you got the specific tweet instead of me plowing through so many tweets and secondly I rather have it from official sources like CZ or PA!!
> 
> unless i am wrong Horus mentioned that Ak103 performed better after it had been dropped and yet earlier we were told it didn't perform that well. that threw more confusion into the mix rather than clarifying anything!
> 
> Now DMR will be x51 and DMR currently is what rifle G3? so you have gone from NO, BREN is only in x39 to DMR which is always x51?? can you see the tectonic shift in your arguments?



He just want SCAR to be selected and Horus's news make him feel better so he believes whatever Horus has to say, no opinion of his own 

SCAR is the best rifle in Trials

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Thanks @TheOccupiedKashmir for confirming that the LoU had taken place. It appears that negotiations for some kind of CZ weapon with ToT are taking place.

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## django

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat @Zarvan is accepting that a x51 BREN is in existence but yet to be unveiled to the public denial as well? Hazrat these are rifle trials not a court case for land rights! but don't worry I will be good to your love.
> 
> SCAR is the best rifle in Trials
> 
> 
> you are on Hazrat @Zarvan list of people who will not get a eid card from him now!!  I suppose we need to wait for the unveiling of BREN 807 with a x51 magazine.
> 
> SCAR is the best rifle in Trials


I have a feeling the SCAR will be imported for all our special operations forces, (army, navy, airforce) and the regulars will be issued the BREN manufactured locally, I would have preferred the SCAR yet I can still live with this, either way we will still out gun TTP AK-47 or third rate H!ndian INSAS.Kudos


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## Path-Finder

django said:


> I have a feeling the SCAR will be imported for all our special operations forces, (army, navy, airforce) and the regulars will be issued the BREN manufactured locally, I would have preferred the SCAR yet I can still live with this, either way we will still out gun TTP AK-47 or third rate H!ndian INSAS.Kudos



All jokes aside and on a serious note SCAR or BREN or ARX. These Rifles are branches of one tree!! All you need to do is compare their internals and you won't believe it but their internal mechanism is the same!! We have paid too much attention to their looks but absolutely none to their internals.

BREN has short carrier group but long gas piston block! 
SCAR & ARX200 Long Carrier Group with short gas piston block!

i might post pictures to compare the three internals of these rifle Granted ARX carrier is designed differently to avoid patent lawsuit but it's extremely comparable to BREN and SCAR with some difference. 

Long story short if we look beyond the fanboy antics they are great pieces of engineering and excellent systems.

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## django

Path-Finder said:


> All jokes aside and on a serious note SCAR or BREN or ARX. These Rifles are branches of one tree!! All you need to do is compare their internals and you won't believe it but their internal mechanism is the same!! We have paid too much attention to their looks but absolutely none to their internals.
> 
> BREN has short carrier group but long gas piston block!
> SCAR & ARX200 Long Carrier Group with short gas piston block!
> 
> i might post pictures to compare the three internals of these rifle Granted ARX carrier is designed differently to avoid patent lawsuit but it's extremely comparable to BREN and SCAR with some difference.
> 
> Long story short if we look beyond the fanboy antics they are great pieces of engineering and excellent systems.


POF should hire you as a consultant bro, I am sure it would break the heart of a certain Hazrat lol.Kudos bro and fine post.

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## Path-Finder

django said:


> POF should hire you as a consultant bro, I am sure it would break the heart of a certain Hazrat lol.Kudos bro and fine post.


 That would be dream come true and i would take Hazrat just to have a debate with .

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Path-Finder said:


> That would be dream come true and i would take Hazrat just to have a debate with .


Zarvan deserves to be the Auditor General and Attorney General of Pakistan. He can grill the life out of any general or politician. I would pay good money to see such grillings on live TV.

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## Path-Finder

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Zarvan deserves to be the Auditor General and Attorney General of Pakistan. He can grill the life out of any general or politician. I would pay good money to see such grillings on live TV.


the idea has merit @Zarvan

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## Areesh

Path-Finder said:


> the idea has merit @Zarvan




Aawai hi aawai CZ Bren aawai hi aawai

@TheOccupiedKashmir



Excellent choice by the army and I am fully satisfied with this procurement.

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## django

Zarvan said:


> *SCAR will replace Type 56 *and SCAR H or Berreta ARX 200 will replace G3. Secondly both rifles are coming for infantry. So which two rifles will get selected and both will come to infantry


You mean BREN.

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## Path-Finder

django said:


> You mean BREN.

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## Gryphon

@Horus says the x51 CZ 807 tested is a DMR. But, according to the chart, the target was just 100 m away.

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## Rafi

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> *PhDr. Ondrej Podel* (Head of Project Pakistan, CZ) has told @TheOccupiedKashmir that "CZ has performed extraordinarily well in both categories and is the only company which is offering (and had tested) full package to Pakistan Army. We consider Pakistan along with our own Army as our key and most important partner and we are working with your army on tailored and customized solution, because this is what we believe [the] most effective approach as every army has different demands and needs."
> 
> He added that "Regarding [the] LOU between CZ and POF, we cannot comment on the ongoing negotiation, however there was [a] press release in Radio Pakistan about general meaning of our mutual intentions to cooperate with POF especially in terms of transfer our latest and most advanced technology to Pakistan."
> 
> Image Copyright: CZ
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Image Copyright: CZ
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Areesh @Path-Finder @Horus @Rafi @HRK @Suff Shikan @Oscar @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Devil Soul @Windjammer @Manticore @DESERT FIGHTER @TheDarkKnight @Khafee @Ulla



Pretty much conforms to what I have been told, CZ's willingness to transfer tech and expertise and also MOST crucially, was the only one dedicated to a long term relationship, where the rifle will be upgraded, with various upgrades.



TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> @Horus says the x51 CZ 807 tested is a DMR. But, according to the chart, the target was just 100 m away.



The writing is on the wall, it is pretty much all over, unless the Belgy's or the Talians can pull some sort of last minute miracle offer out of the blue.

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## Path-Finder

Rafi said:


> Pretty much conforms to what I have been told, CZ's willingness to transfer tech and expertise and also MOST crucially, was the only one dedicated to a long term relationship, where the rifle will be upgraded, with various upgrades.
> 
> 
> 
> The writing is on the wall, it is pretty much all over, unless the Belgy's or the Talians can pull some sort of last minute miracle offer out of the blue.



Hazrat @Zarvan do you have any info to add here?


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## 50cent

ZedZeeshan said:


> and this will replace G3..??


Yup it's a.multi callibre it can play doubles roles.Besides I don't agree why we should pay millions of dollars for a .Single.rifle when we don't we enough bullet proof jackets to meet demand of our forces our army is using Toyota trucks in instead of armoured mine resistant cars in Taliban IED infested areas our best friend China has PhD in copy. Reverse enginnering



here is Chinese Norinco ar15. Duplicate  its accuracy is better than original ar15 they even copied .s300 missilee system and named it Hq9


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## ali_raza

for CZ we will be tgere biggest client.
the levels of insight they will allow us will be unmatched by anyone else.
bigger companies are also arrogant in sharing there secrets. and i think this is can be a turning point in our small arm industry if we plan it well


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat @Zarvan do you have any info to add here?


My source is Horus I am saying what he is telling me. As he has proven right on point many times before so I would wait for him. He is still saying that BREN is not competing in G3 replacement it's only competing for Type 56 replacement. So when he would tell me something new or he himself would like to reveal what is going on here I have nothing to say and I won't rule out SCAR or Beretta until than.


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## MystryMan

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> *PhDr. Ondrej Podel* (Head of Project Pakistan, CZ) has told @TheOccupiedKashmir that "CZ has performed extraordinarily well in both categories and is the only company which is offering (and had tested) full package to Pakistan Army. We consider Pakistan along with our own Army as our key and most important partner and we are working with your army on tailored and customized solution, because this is what we believe [the] most effective approach as every army has different demands and needs."
> 
> He added that "Regarding [the] LOU between CZ and POF, we cannot comment on the ongoing negotiation, however there was [a] press release in Radio Pakistan about general meaning of our mutual intentions to cooperate with POF especially in terms of transfer our latest and most advanced technology to Pakistan."
> 
> Image Copyright: CZ
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Areesh @Path-Finder @Horus @Rafi @HRK @Suff Shikan @Oscar @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Devil Soul @Windjammer @Manticore @DESERT FIGHTER @TheDarkKnight @Khafee @Ulla





Rafi said:


> Pretty much conforms to what I have been told, CZ's willingness to transfer tech and expertise and also MOST crucially, was the only one dedicated to a long term relationship, where the rifle will be upgraded, with various upgrades.
> 
> 
> 
> The writing is on the wall, it is pretty much all over, unless the Belgy's or the Talians can pull some sort of last minute miracle offer out of the blue.


So @Rafi claim have been corroborated by the CZ's Head of Pakistan Project. If CZ BREN is selected for both calibers it would be easier for training and logistics, also it seems CZ is ready for long-term commitment (CZ rep stated Pakistan as key partner) for weapon upgrade and design improvements. At the moment BREN seems the best bet for PA.


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> My source is Horus I am saying what he is telling me. As he has proven right on point many times before so I would wait for him. He is still saying that BREN is not competing in G3 replacement it's only competing for Type 56 replacement. So when he would tell me something new or he himself would like to reveal what is going on here I have nothing to say and I won't rule out SCAR or Beretta until than.


if you are wrong then?


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> if you are wrong then?


Than I hope BREN is good enough. Specially as we haven't seen 7.62 X 51 version so we need to see it.


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## Army research

Zarvan said:


> Than I hope BREN is good enough. Specially as we haven't seen 7.62 X 51 version so we need to see it.


We don't 'need' to see it


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## Gryphon

*CZ 807*






*DESCRIPTION*

The CZ 807 is a modern assault rifle in 7.62x39 calibre. It is a standard individual weapon characterized by outstanding reliability, durability and accuracy. It is also one of the lightest weapons in its category with excellent ergonomics. Due to its simplicity, the weapon is ready to use in active duty for a long time without the need for more complex maintenance.

*Distinguishing Characteristics*:

• The weapon system is based on the tried and tested collection of gases from the bore with the option to regulate the piston mechanism in two stages. 
• The weapon is extremely reliable and durable in all conditions.
• High accuracy and long service life.
• Low weight for comfortable handling.
• Controls accessible from both sides.
• Bolt catch with a bolt release lever.
• Perfect ergonomics with outstanding control during shooting.
• Materials used are non-flammable or have increased flame resistance, they are impact resistant and have a high resistance to mechanical damage.
• The basic stripping and reassembly of the weapon for routine maintenance may be performed without the use of any tools.
• Interchangeable backstraps in three sizes.
• Folding telescopic stock.

*TECHNICAL DATA*






http://www.czub.cz/en/produkty/automaticke-zbrane/cz-807.html

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Than I hope BREN is good enough. Specially as we haven't seen 7.62 X 51 version so we need to see it.


Does CZ need to Prove it you Hazrat @Zarvan ? secondly it's BREN 807 it's already been shown by @TheOccupiedKashmir !!


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Yes they have shown CZ 807 which is 7.62 X 39 version if CZ 7.62 X 51 version had given excellent performance in trials why they didn't showed it during IDEAS 2016 ? What is the point of hiding it ?


 Hazrat @Zarvan you do know that for x51 all you need is barrel, bolt carrier & Mag well change? that is it. the rifle chassis remains the same with only three changes made to it!!!


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## Gryphon

Path-Finder said:


> Does CZ need to Prove it you Hazrat @Zarvan ? secondly it's BREN 807 it's already been shown by @TheOccupiedKashmir !!



CZ 807 was trialed by PA, not BREN / BREN 2.

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## Gryphon

UPDATE: *PhDr. Ondrej Podel* has confirmed to @TheOccupiedKashmir that CZ rifles of 7.62x51 as well as 7.62x39 calibers have been tested by Pakistan Army.

He said that "The image shows weapon in caliber 7.62x39, however the target behind it shows actual result from 7.62x51 trials. It is the accuracy after 10.000rds of endurance test."

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## TheDarkKnight

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> UPDATE: *PhDr. Ondrej Podel* has confirmed to @TheOccupiedKashmir that CZ rifles of 7.62x51 as well as 7.62x39 calibers have been tested by Pakistan Army.
> 
> He said that "The image shows weapon in caliber 7.62x39, however the target behind it shows actual result from 7.62x51 trials. It is the accuracy after 10.000rds of endurance test."


Thanks for sharing the info. Would he be so kind to also share a pic of cz in 7.62x51  ... if u already didnt ask?

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

@TheOccupiedKashmir Is the Pakistan Army also looking for UGBL and sights, especially reflex or red-dot sights?


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## Gryphon

TheDarkKnight said:


> Thanks for sharing the info. Would he be so kind to also share a pic of cz in 7.62x51  ... if u already didnt ask?



He has provided two pics only, which I have posted on page 211. And yes, I have asked for the x51 pic.



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> @TheOccupiedKashmir Is the Pakistan Army also looking for UGBL and sights, especially reflex or red-dot sights?



I did not ask about UBGL or sights.

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## Path-Finder

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> CZ 807 was trialed by PA, not BREN / BREN 2.


 Ok I didn't know about distinctions between the two but good news about x51!



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> @TheOccupiedKashmir Is the Pakistan Army also looking for UGBL and sights, especially reflex or red-dot sights?


There is a post by @Rafi who has highlighted that these devices e.g UBGL and optics are being procured!

https://defence.pk/threads/ideas-2016-possible-ubgl-contract.465361/

Hazrat @Zarvan you are awfully quiet?

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## razgriz19

Zarvan said:


> I am not until they show it. If BREN was participating in 7.62 X 51 category why they are not showing the Gun. It's a dam Gun not a nuclear weapon for love of GOD. Till now BREN has shown 5.56 and 7.62 X 39 caliber Assault Rifles I would believe X 51 exists when I see it. Also all other members are denying that BREN is participating in X 51 category including MODS.
> 
> 
> Yes and I salute the Guy who is calling 7.62 X 39 Rifle 7.62 X 51



It says 7.62x5/0.308 winchester ammo used on the bottom right.
Now why would they write that if they didn't test it?

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Ok I didn't know about distinctions between the two but good news about x51!
> 
> 
> There is a post by @Rafi who has highlighted that these devices e.g UBGL and optics are being procured!
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/ideas-2016-possible-ubgl-contract.465361/
> 
> Hazrat @Zarvan you are awfully quiet?


@Horus What is going on here ???? Please reply here


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## Gryphon

Path-Finder said:


> Ok I didn't know about distinctions between the two but good news about x51!



Look here

http://www.czub.cz/en/produkty/automaticke-zbrane.html

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## Gryphon



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## Gryphon



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## Zarvan

Interesting Magazine report but again mention of 7.62 X 39 and 5.56 X 45 but no mention of 7.62 X 51





The Mk.17 is a US SOCOM designation of a Belgian FN SCAR-H modular assault rifle



Country of origin United States
Entered service 2009
Caliber 7.62 x 51 mm
Weight ? / 3.58 kg / 3.72 kg
Length 889 mm / 965 mm / 1 067 mm
Length (with folded stock) 635 mm / 711 mm / 813 mm
Barrel length 330 mm / 406 mm / 508 mm
Muzzle velocity 714 m/s
Cyclic rate of fire 625 rpm
Practical rate of fire 30 - 90 rpm
Magazine capacity 20 rounds
Sighting range ?
Range of effective fire 300 m / 600 m / 800 m


The Mk.17 is a modular battle rifle, used by the US Special Operations Command (US SOCOM). At some point the US SOCOM requested a new combat rifle, that would be available in different calibers and would replace the current M14,M16, M4 and Mk.11 rifles. In 2004 it was announced that a Belgian FN SCAR modular assault rifle was selected to meet this requirement. Version of the FN SCAR, the SCAR-H, chambered for 7.62x51 mm ammunition was adopted by the US SOCOM as the Mk.17. Another version of the same weapon, the SCAR-L assault rifle, chambered for a lighter 5.56x45 mm ammunition, was adopted as the Mk.16. Deliveries of both rifles commenced in 2009. These were delivered to all branches of the US SOCOM, including Navy SEALs, US Army Rangers, Army Special Forces, MARSOC and AFSOC. However in 2010 procurement of the Mk.16 was suspended due to the lack of performance difference over the standard M4 carbine to justify the purchase. However the US SOCOM continued purchasing the Mk.17. The Mk.17 is manufactured in the United States by the FNH USA, a subsidiary of the Belgian company. This weapon is currently widely used by the US special forces, and proved itself well.

The Mk.17 is a gas-operated, selective fire weapon with modular design. It is chambered for a standard NATO 7.62x51 mm full-power ammunition. The key idea of the modular system, that it provides the US special forces with a wide variety of configurations. Each weapon can be reconfigured in the field within the matter of minutes. The Mk.16 and Mk.17 assault rifles have the same layout, controls and maintenance procedures, as well as 90% parts commonality. Three quick-detachable barrels with different lengths are available, including short (330 mm / 13"), standard (406 mm / 16") and long (508 mm / 20"). These barrels can be quickly replaced, so the shooter can customize his weapon depending on actual mission requirements. None of the previous US special forces weapon could be easily modified in this way. Version of the Mk.17 with the shortest barrel is a rather unusual weapon with compact dimensions, but with a firepower of a battle rifle. This configuration is intended for close quarter battles.

The Mk.17 assault rifle can be configured to fire the 7.62x39 mm ammunition. In this case it can accept standard 30-round AK-47 / AKM magazines. This feature allows to fire enemy ammunition what is very important for operations behind the enemy lines.

An ambidextrous safety and fire mode selector switch has positions for "safe", "semi-auto" and "full auto". A charging handle can be easily installed from either side of the receiver. Spent cases are ejected only to the right side. However there is a deflector, which propels the spent cases away from the left-handed shooters. This weapon has excellent ergonomics.

The Mk.17 is fed from 20-round capacity magazines.

A side-folding buttstock is adjustable for length. It can be completely removed from the weapon.

This assault rifle has a full-length Picatinny-type scope rail for mounting various optics. It comes as standard with detachable flip-up iron sights. Though these special forces weapons are typically used with various scopes. This assault rifle can also mount night vision sights. Effective range of fire is up to 600 meters against single targets and 800 meters against area targets.

There are additional Picatinny-type accessory rails, mounted on both sides and under the foregrip. These are used to mount various add-on accessories, such as tactical flashlights, laser pointers, vertical grips, bipods and so on.

Flash hider of the Mk.17 can be used to snap barbed wire by inserting the barbed wire into the flash hider and twisting the weapon. Alternatively it snap the inserted barbed wire by shooting through it. Also this weapon can mount a sound suppressor. Though it looks like the Mk.17 can not mount a bayonet.

This weapon is compatible with an Mk.13 40 mm underbarrel grenade launcher, which can be also used as a stand alone unit.



Variants



Mk.16 is a version of the Belgian FN SCAR-L, chambered for a lighter 5.56x45 mm ammunition. This weapon uses 30-round magazines. Its effective range of fire is up to 500 meters against single targets and 600 meters against area targets. This weapon was adopted by the US SOCOM, alongside the Mk.17 in 2009. However in 2010, soon after its introduction, the US SOCOM announced that they will cancel all purchases of the Mk.16. The main reason was a lack of performance difference comparing with the standard M4 carbine to justify the purchase. Instead they planned to purchase 5.56 mm conversion kits for their Mk.17 battle rifles, that would allow to convert them to fire the same 5.56x45 mm ammunition as the Mk.16. At the time the US SOCOM already bought 850 Mk.16s.

Mk.20 is a sniper variant of the Mk.17. It is chambered for a 7.62x51 mm ammunition and comes with a precision barrel.

*Mk.17*
Assault Rifle





*Mk.17*
Assault Rifle





*Mk.17*
Assault Rifle





*Mk.17/h3>*
*Assault Rifle*

*



*
*Mk.17*
Assault Rifle





*Mk.17*
Assault Rifle





*Mk.17*
Assault Rifle





http://www.military-today.com/firearms/mk_17.htm

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

That's because the magazine report predates IDEAS 2016. Us not seeing the 7.62 NATO variant of the CZ-807 does not change the fact that CZ listed both its existence and test results on its official material at IDEAS.

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Interesting Magazine report but again mention of 7.62 X 39 and 5.56 X 45 but no mention of 7.62 X 51


 Hazrat @Zarvan why is it a difficult pill to swallow?

I just followed the progress of Hazrat @Zarvan from page 190 of this thread because I had spare few minutes  and my goodness it is a diamond in the rough in pure entertainment value.

https://defence.pk/threads/pakistan...-replacement-competition-2016.426049/page-190

hazrat @Zarvan from flatly accepting the blasphemy of there being a x51 CZ to accepting it as a DMR in x51

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## Gryphon



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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

@TheOccupiedKashmir It would be interesting if the ToT package being negotiated with CZ expands into indigenous barrel, polymer, composites, etc, development. The expertise (especially for efficiency) could be extended into improving the POF LSR.


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## Gryphon

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat @Zarvan why is it a difficult pill to swallow?
> 
> I just followed the progress of Hazrat @Zarvan from page 190 of this thread because I had spare few minutes  and my goodness it is a diamond in the rough in pure entertainment value.
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/pakistan...-replacement-competition-2016.426049/page-190
> 
> hazrat @Zarvan from flatly accepting the blasphemy of there being a x51 CZ to accepting it as a DMR in x51



It is a matter of time before officials confirm FN / Beretta are out of the competition and CZ .

Maulana will likely collapse; reportedly a kids critical care ambulance is on standby outside his house. 








Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> @TheOccupiedKashmir It would be interesting if the ToT package being negotiated with CZ expands into indigenous barrel, polymer, composites, etc, development. The expertise (especially for efficiency) could be extended into improving the POF LSR.



CZ has shown willingness for ToT. Anything in addition to CZ 807 would be more welcome.

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## Gryphon

@Path-Finder @Bilal Khan (Quwa) 

What is the white cylindrical thing on the table near CZ 807?


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## Blue Marlin

if turkey has replaced their g3's with their own mpt-76 then why dont pakistan go for that?


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## Path-Finder

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> It is a matter of time before officials confirm FN / Beretta are out of the competition and CZ .
> 
> Maulana will likely collapse; reportedly a kids critical care ambulance is on standby outside his house.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CZ has shown willingness for ToT. Anything in addition to CZ 807 would be more welcome.



our Hazrat @Zarvan is already feeling little hot under the collar now

https://twitter.com/zarwanali1989



TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> @Path-Finder @Bilal Khan (Quwa)
> 
> What is the white cylindrical thing on the table near CZ 807?


its next to the bayonet in sheath the long black thing, the cylinder shape is a little naughty but it can very well be the cleaning kit? makes sense.


----------



## fitpOsitive

Blue Marlin said:


> if turkey has replaced their g3's with their own mpt-76 then why dont pakistan go for that?


Due to our over-reliance on foreign research and development.


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## Blue Marlin

fitpOsitive said:


> Due to our over-reliance on foreign research and development.


its tukey not the usa, i thought turkey was a "brotherly" country?


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## fitpOsitive

Blue Marlin said:


> its tukey not the usa, i thought turkey was a "brotherly" country?


Brotherly doesn't mean we cant buy from others. 

Its my feeling that BREN is selected because selectors are pretty much biased towards SCAR, may be due to its better trial performance. And I am expecting that SCAR will replace G-3.


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## Path-Finder

fitpOsitive said:


> Brotherly doesn't mean we cant buy from others.
> 
> Its my feeling that BREN is selected because selectors are pretty much biased towards SCAR, may be due to its better trial performance. And I am expecting that SCAR will replace G-3.


Bias towards SCAR? how is one biased towards SCAR? No one is biased towards SCAR its more than just choosing a rifle that people like the looks of. There is a financial incentive that outweighs all other categories!


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## fitpOsitive

Path-Finder said:


> Bias towards SCAR? how is one biased towards SCAR? No one is biased towards SCAR its more than just choosing a rifle that people like the looks of. There is a financial incentive that outweighs all other categories!


Lets see then....!


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## Path-Finder

fitpOsitive said:


> Lets see then....!


at least you can rest in the knowing that you are not considered a SCAR hater!


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## Blue Marlin

Path-Finder said:


> Bias towards SCAR? how is one biased towards SCAR? No one is biased towards SCAR its more than just choosing a rifle that people like the looks of. There is a financial incentive that outweighs all other categories!


i voted for the arx-200 simply because its italian and pak-italian relations are quiet warm



Path-Finder said:


> Bias towards SCAR? how is one biased towards SCAR? No one is biased towards SCAR its more than just choosing a rifle that people like the looks of. There is a financial incentive that outweighs all other categories!


whats your pick?

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## Path-Finder

@TheOccupiedKashmir @Bilal Khan (Quwa) 
 Hazrat @Zarvan Mafi mein rakhna


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## fitpOsitive

Path-Finder said:


> at least you can rest in the knowing that you are not considered a SCAR hater!


For me its childish to be a gun lover or hater in this case, cus I trust those who are evaluating rifles. Simple.


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## Path-Finder

Blue Marlin said:


> i voted for the arx-200 simply because its italian and pak-italian relations are quiet warm
> 
> 
> whats your pick?


I was fond of SCAR rifle at the beginning however it is very costly platform, I was being a fanboy then I used my tiny brain and conducted a limited research to find that Beretta offers a whole package as part of beretta defence technologies, rifle and ecosystem where FN offer only a rifle.

As Time went on and I along with others realised CZ make complete sense its similar in function with difference in bolt carrier i.e SCAR/ARX has longer bolt carrier group and short gas block, CZ has Short carrier but longer gas block assembly. 

CZ offers a similar ecosystem as Beretta but with more incentives that led to their being a MOU being signed.

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## Blue Marlin

Path-Finder said:


> I was fond of SCAR rifle at the beginning however it is very costly platform, I was being a fanboy then I used my tiny brain and conducted a limited research to find that Beretta offers a whole package as part of beretta defence technologies, rifle and ecosystem where FN offer only a rifle.
> 
> As Time went on and I along with others realised CZ make complete sense its similar in function with difference in bolt carrier i.e SCAR/ARX has longer bolt carrier group and short gas block, CZ has Short carrier but longer gas block assembly.
> 
> CZ offers a similar ecosystem as Beretta but with more incentives that led to their being a MOU being signed.


can you tell me how does the scar-h, arx-200 cz cost?


----------



## Gryphon

Path-Finder said:


> our Hazrat @Zarvan is already feeling little hot under the collar now
> 
> https://twitter.com/zarwanali1989
> 
> 
> its next to the bayonet in sheath the long black thing, *the cylinder shape is a little naughty* but it can very well be the cleaning kit? makes sense.



The heat is likely to move southwards in the coming days. 

 
Does showing 'cleaning kit' to COAS make sense? How do other kits look like ?



Blue Marlin said:


> can you tell me how does the scar-h, arx-200 cz cost?



SCAR-H is around 2500-3000 US$
Beretta ARX-200 costs 1500-2000 US$
CZ 807 is 1200-1500 US$



Path-Finder said:


> View attachment 370736
> 
> 
> @TheOccupiedKashmir @Bilal Khan (Quwa)
> Hazrat @Zarvan Mafi mein rakhna



Ye suicide karne se pehle Horus aur Oscar ko maare ga.

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## Gryphon

Path-Finder said:


> As Time went on and I along with others realised CZ make complete sense its similar in function with difference in bolt carrier i.e SCAR/ARX has longer bolt carrier group and short gas block, CZ has Short carrier but longer gas block assembly.
> 
> CZ offers a similar ecosystem as Beretta but with more incentives that led to their being a MOU being signed.



CZ has the edge over Beretta because the x39 ARX-160 (which Beretta may have offered) has been criticized by many all along for excessive use of plastics. CZ rifles are also lighter than those manufactured by Beretta.

SCAR is simply very expensive.

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## Path-Finder

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> The heat is likely to move southwards in the coming days.
> 
> 
> Does showing 'cleaning kit' to COAS make sense? How do other kits look like ?
> 
> 
> 
> SCAR-H is around 2500-3000 US$
> Beretta ARX-200 costs 1500-2000 US$
> CZ 807 is 1200-1500 US$
> 
> 
> 
> Ye suicide karne se pehle Horus aur Oscar ko maare ga.


not entirely sure if it is a cleaning kit it appears to be a screw top cylinder device  bit small for a cleaning rod! 

Our Hazrat @Zarvan is at situation critical now, we SCAR haters  are growing in numbers .



TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> CZ has the edge over Beretta because the x39 ARX-160 (which Beretta may have offered) has been criticized by many all along for excessive use of plastics. CZ rifles are also lighter than those manufactured by Beretta.
> 
> SCAR is simply very expensive.


and it offers a better calibre cross conversion in comparison to SCAR and Beretta with CZ 807 modular rifle.

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## Blue Marlin

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> CZ has the edge over Beretta because the x39 ARX-160 (which Beretta may have offered) has been criticized by many all along for excessive use of plastics. CZ rifles are also lighter than those manufactured by Beretta.
> 
> SCAR is simply very expensive.


i thought the arx-200 has been offered. not the160? or have they offered both?

how many is pakistan planning on buying?


----------



## pzfz

Path-Finder said:


> View attachment 370736
> 
> 
> @TheOccupiedKashmir @Bilal Khan (Quwa)
> Hazrat @Zarvan Mafi mein rakhna



no way in hell is that rifle 7.62x51. the mag does not have the dimensions to load those bullets. now the results might be of a different chambered rifle, but that rifle is not 7.62x51. it's 7.62x39. see the curve.


----------



## Path-Finder

pzfz said:


> no way in hell is that rifle 7.62x51. the mag does not have the dimensions to load those bullets. now the results might be of a different chambered rifle, but that rifle is not 7.62x51. it's 7.62x39. see the curve.


go to page 190 and come to the current page. everything will become clear!!


----------



## ali_raza

i have been watching alote of bren videos.all i can find is some heating issues rest it a great gun


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> The heat is likely to move southwards in the coming days.
> 
> 
> Does showing 'cleaning kit' to COAS make sense? How do other kits look like ?
> 
> 
> 
> SCAR-H is around 2500-3000 US$
> Beretta ARX-200 costs 1500-2000 US$
> CZ 807 is 1200-1500 US$
> 
> 
> 
> Ye suicide karne se pehle Horus aur Oscar ko maare ga.


POF can bring the rifle costs down using the Pakistani rupee, labour costs, and material costs. Yes, it'll have the overhead (from the ToT acquisition) to worry about, but that can be scaled using odomestic requirements. In the long-run, we could potentially bring the CZ-807 platform to sub-$1,000 levels, which is markedly competitive on the market (boosting export prospects).

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## Army research

pzfz said:


> no way in hell is that rifle 7.62x51. the mag does not have the dimensions to load those bullets. now the results might be of a different chambered rifle, but that rifle is not 7.62x51. it's 7.62x39. see the curve.


Yaar yay bik gaye scar qasam say , read the chart the model in front is .39 but the accuracy chart is of .51


----------



## Zarvan

Army research said:


> Yaar yay bik gaye scar qasam say , read the chart the model in front is .39 but the accuracy chart is of .51


I still don't think BREN will replace G3 also. For G3 either Berreta ARX 200 or SCAR H will come @Horus @balixd @Oscar


----------



## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> I still doubt that BREN 7.62 X 51 was there to participate for replacing G3. If it would have been there they would have shown it the magazine which @TheOccupiedKashmir also has nothing to say about X 51 version so I am now more in doubts secondly I am waiting for @Horus and @balixd and @Oscar to clear the situation.


Hazrat @Zarvan it is CZ 807 not BREN, secondly you are still not accepting this one little fact!

CZ 807 remains the same with changes made to 1)barrel 2)bolt carrier group 3) magwell or lower receiver

if they show a CZ 807 with a x51 then will you have some skoon in your life?

I am more confident than ever SCAR & Beretta are not coming purely because as your source Oscar said it here;







quoting Oscar that (financial+technical+political) are the things that must be met to satisfy a contract Just getting ToT is NOT enough!

If you cannot even believe your sources either than there is nothing more we humans can do


----------



## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat @Zarvan it is CZ 807 not BREN, secondly you are still not accepting this one little fact!
> 
> CZ 807 remains the same with changes made to 1)barrel 2)bolt carrier group 3) magwell or lower receiver
> 
> if they show a CZ 807 with a x51 then will you have some skoon in your life?
> 
> I am more confident than ever SCAR & Beretta are not coming purely because as your source Oscar said it here;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quoting Oscar that (financial+technical+political) are the things that must be met to satisfy a contract Just getting ToT is NOT enough!
> 
> If you cannot even believe your sources either than there is nothing more we humans can do



Getting best Rifle is the priority if you are not getting best rifle for your soldiers which can perform best in field than sorry but you are being dishonest to them.


----------



## Naveed66

Zarvan said:


> I know Pakistan journalists and How much they know about defence matters


are you saying this because he didnt favour your Love FN SCAR


----------



## Zarvan

Naveed66 said:


> are you saying this because he didnt favour your Love FN SCAR


No our journalists have history of doing wrong reporting about defense matters. Our media totally sucks when it comes to defense matters.


----------



## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Getting best Rifle is the priority if you are not getting best rifle for your soldiers which can perform best in field than sorry but you are being dishonest to them.


They are getting the best. On what basis are they getting the worst? Hazrat @Zarvan anything better than Type 56 & G3 is better and that is what they are getting!


----------



## Gryphon

Path-Finder said:


> and it offers a better calibre cross conversion in comparison to SCAR and Beretta with CZ 807 modular rifle.



The 7.62x39 CZ 807 was originally developed for the Indian tender to replace 65,000 rifles. The tender required multi-caliber (with easy caliber cross conversion) rifles. India cancelled the tender and CZ capitalized in Pakistan by offering the same rifle. 



Blue Marlin said:


> i thought the arx-200 has been offered. not the160? or have they offered both?



I said 'may have offered'. The are two tenders - one for x39, one for x51.

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## PAR 5

The CZ rifle consts around a $1000 bucks a piece, the Chinese made Type 56 costs around $122 a piece. So far no complaints have been received from the units on use of the Chinese Type 56. POF has even tried to develop one in-house but it failed due to the poor metallurgy. So despite all the wonderful posts on SCAR, Beretta and CZ being selected and purchased by the Pakistan Armed forces, the real news is total silence on the matter.


----------



## Max Pain

PAR 5 said:


> The CZ rifle consts around a $1000 bucks a piece, the Chinese made Type 56 costs around $122 a piece. So far no complaints have been received from the units on use of the Chinese Type 56. POF has even tried to develop one in-house but it failed due to the poor metallurgy. So despite all the wonderful posts on SCAR, Beretta and CZ being selected and purchased by the Pakistan Armed forces, the real news is total silence on the matter.


youre probably right about the cost but buying off the shelves is never a good long term approach, 
its better to invest locally and not only cater to the needs of your own forces but also get the export orders,
By TOT we will get some knowhow about developing good weapons in house, this also will give us the capability to maybe later on develop a new weapon totally on our own.


----------



## Tiger Awan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> POF can bring the rifle costs down using the Pakistani rupee, labour costs, and material costs. Yes, it'll have the overhead (from the ToT acquisition) to worry about, but that can be scaled using odomestic requirements. In the long-run, we could potentially bring the CZ-807 platform to sub-$1,000 levels, which is markedly competitive on the market (boosting export prospects).



Also I find it very hard to believe that a country with limited resources is going to have ToT on different riffles for different calibres. That is going to make this whole thing so expensive especially when you are dealing with expensive toys like SCAR. Only way SCAR could have been a little bit affordable ( a little bit ) was if we procure it in large numbers and do all what you have mentioned but if we are going for BREN for x39, SCAR is off completely. Its just too expensive to be inducted in large numbers


----------



## Gryphon

PAR 5 said:


> So despite all the wonderful posts on SCAR, Beretta and CZ being selected and purchased by the Pakistan Armed forces, *the real news is total silence on the matter.*



O chacha, check my posts on page 211 and 214.

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## Tiger Awan

Zarvan said:


> We already are doing it with various weapons. From Tanks to Fighter Jets to other weapons we hardly stick to one thing. Even in Rifles we won't stick to one thing even if we produce one rifle series you would soon see Pakistani Soldiers using some other rifle series also and that too in really large numbers. No way Pakistani Soldiers will stick to only one Rifle even if POF produce only one series. So better we produce more than instead of Pakistan Army end up buying another series.



Man your love for SCAR wont let you see anything logical. All I am saying is that already expensive SCAR will become more expensive if we are not producing in mass number. I am not saying anything blasphemous about SCAR

And surely you can find better logic then "From Tanks to Fighter Jets to other weapons we hardly stick to one thing" Ever heard of comparing Oranges and Apples ??

In my humble opinion Army will be looking for a gun that with little changes can be used for both calibres and is cheap and comes with ToT. BREN not only tick all these but also there is a MoU so ......


Hey but

SCAR PERFORMED THE BEST IN THE TRAILS


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## Gryphon

Tiger Awan said:


> Hey but
> 
> SCAR PERFORMED THE BEST IN THE TRAILS

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## Tiger Awan

Path-Finder said:


> but you just did I was going to reply to it the one you replied to @Tiger Awan I quoted it and it would not let me reply because you deleted the post!!



This one ??


----------



## Path-Finder

Tiger Awan said:


> This one ??
> 
> View attachment 371102


 It made no sense what so ever so i thought if Hazrat @Zarvan could shed light upon it


----------



## Tiger Awan

Path-Finder said:


> It made no sense what so ever so i thought if Hazrat @Zarvan could shed light upon it



Well I am not denying the possibility of Army getting 2 different rifles, just saying 2 big orders to 2 different companies is unlikely since this is very expensive and also operating 2 different kind of rifles is not easy/cheap

Maybe we will get few for SSG etc


----------



## Path-Finder

Tiger Awan said:


> Well I am not denying the possibility of Army getting 2 different rifles, just saying 2 big orders to 2 different companies is unlikely since this is very expensive and also operating 2 different kind of rifles is not easy/cheap
> 
> Maybe we will get few for SSG etc


 All over the world multi calibre solution is being sought and we have an CZ 807 that fits the bill perfectly because producing two rifles is a huge strain financially and production wise. currently Type 56 and G3 is a huge burden carrying two rifles but one rifle with change of caliber is far more easy.

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## Gryphon

Some posts were deleted for derailing the thread / off-topic..



Path-Finder said:


> All over the world multi calibre solution is being sought and we have an CZ 807 that fits the bill perfectly because producing two rifles is a huge strain financially and production wise. currently Type 56 and G3 is a huge burden carrying two rifles but one rifle with change of caliber is far more easy.



5.56 CZ 807 should also be considered. So should be this one  





*CZ SCORPION EVO 3 A1*

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## PAR 5

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> O chacha, check my posts on page 211 and 214.



Oye Choochay! You think that by posting a photo of the CZ rifle or quoting someone from the CZ factory or showing Usman from POF signing an LoU (which in practical terms means nothing) with some Czech guy means that Armed forces has bought and contracted the BREN? How is the weather on Mars really??!!

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## Zarvan

PAR 5 said:


> Oye Choochay! You think that by posting a photo of the CZ rifle or quoting someone from the CZ factory or showing Usman from POF signing an LoU (which in practical terms means nothing) with some Czech guy means that Armed forces has bought and contracted the BREN? How is the weather on Mars really??!!


Well POF did sign MOU with Czech weapons company for small arms during IDEAS 2016.


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## Gryphon

PAR 5 said:


> *You think* that by posting a photo of the CZ rifle or quoting someone from the CZ factory or showing Usman from POF signing an LoU (which in practical terms means nothing) with some Czech guy *means that Armed forces has bought and contracted the BREN?*



I really think you suffer from hypermetropia. So, get some suitable glasses first. Then check my posts on page 211 and 214 again. I have nowhere said PA has bought or contracted the CZ 807. The post on page 211 mentions what the LoU means according to CZ officials.

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## Path-Finder

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Some posts were deleted for derailing the thread / off-topic..
> 
> 
> 
> 5.56 CZ 807 should also be considered. So should be this one
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *CZ SCORPION EVO 3 A1*


good contender for MP5 successor but since SMG is designated as Type 56 x39 then the need for a 9mm machine pistol still valid?


----------



## Army research

Path-Finder said:


> good contender for MP5 successor but since SMG is designated as Type 56 x39 then the need for a 9mm machine pistol still valid?


Who said its replaced ? It's just the terminology they use for AK as SMG, operatives at loc still have mp5
9mm is needed as a commanders weapon and Personal defense/VIP etc which has a very very big market in Pakistan and abroad

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Some posts were deleted for derailing the thread / off-topic..
> 
> 
> 
> 5.56 CZ 807 should also be considered. So should be this one
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *CZ SCORPION EVO 3 A1*


Imagine a PDW based on the Scorpion. Not sure how much more personal it can be made though...

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## Path-Finder

@Suff Shikan wah ji kia fame hai! 

http://www.armadninoviny.cz/cz-807-bren-stovky-tisic-ceskych-utocnych-pusek-pro-pakistan3f.html

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/12/09/pakistani-pof-tentative-plans-produce-cz-806-bren-2/

I just realised something this thread is being looked at very closely across the world & not just in Pakistan. in terms of the rifle selection which is a much bigger deal than we thought it was, and there has been a lot of 'juggat' done here  Hazrat @Zarvan

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> @Suff Shikan wah ji kia fame hai!
> 
> http://www.armadninoviny.cz/cz-807-bren-stovky-tisic-ceskych-utocnych-pusek-pro-pakistan3f.html
> 
> http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/12/09/pakistani-pof-tentative-plans-produce-cz-806-bren-2/
> 
> I just realised something this thread is being looked at very closely across the world & not just in Pakistan. in terms of the rifle selection which is a much bigger deal than we thought it was, and there has been a lot of 'juggat' done here  Hazrat @Zarvan


Yes I know this forum is watched by thousands of defense journalists and enthusiasts.


----------



## Suff Shikan

Path-Finder said:


> @Suff Shikan wah ji kia fame hai!
> 
> http://www.armadninoviny.cz/cz-807-bren-stovky-tisic-ceskych-utocnych-pusek-pro-pakistan3f.html
> 
> http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/12/09/pakistani-pof-tentative-plans-produce-cz-806-bren-2/
> 
> I just realised something this thread is being looked at very closely across the world & not just in Pakistan. in terms of the rifle selection which is a much bigger deal than we thought it was, and there has been a lot of 'juggat' done here  Hazrat @Zarvan



 Shukria

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

@TheOccupiedKashmir It seems like the CZ-807 has been collapsed into the CZ-806 BREN 2. The 2017 CZ USA catalogue has the CZ BREN 2 listed in 5.56x45 and 7.62x39.



http://cz-usa.com/hammer/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/CZ-USA-2017-Product-Catalog.pdf


----------



## Gryphon

Path-Finder said:


> good contender for MP5 successor but since SMG is designated as Type 56 x39 then the need for a 9mm machine pistol still valid?



AK-47 was never a SMG, Pakistani TV channels made it one.. 

There is a good demand of 9x19mm SMG's in the international market. SMG PK / PK-1 look ugly and old.



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> @TheOccupiedKashmir It seems like the CZ-807 has been collapsed into the CZ-806 BREN 2. The 2017 CZ USA catalogue has the CZ BREN 2 listed in 5.56x45 and 7.62x39.
> 
> 
> 
> http://cz-usa.com/hammer/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/CZ-USA-2017-Product-Catalog.pdf



CZ BREN 2 was always available in 5.56x45 and 7.62x39.

Eurosatory 2016: CZ Bren 2 assault rifle makes international debut | IHS Jane's 360



Path-Finder said:


> @Suff Shikan wah ji kia fame hai!
> 
> http://www.armadninoviny.cz/cz-807-bren-stovky-tisic-ceskych-utocnych-pusek-pro-pakistan3f.html
> 
> http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/12/09/pakistani-pof-tentative-plans-produce-cz-806-bren-2/
> 
> I just realised something this thread is being looked at very closely across the world & not just in Pakistan. in terms of the rifle selection which is a much bigger deal than we thought it was, and there has been a lot of 'juggat' done here  Hazrat @Zarvan



Mera upload kiya hua photo bhi edit kiya thefirearmblog ne apne article mai...

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## Gryphon

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Imagine a PDW based on the Scorpion. Not sure how much more personal it can be made though...



There is also a carbine version.


----------



## Cool_Soldier

No decision yet?
Trials were done in 2016.By now results should be received.
Modern Rifles are essential for soldiers fire power.

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## Kailash Rava

The g36 ?


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## Path-Finder

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> There is also a carbine version.



This is a great replacement for MP5 no doubt especially the Evo 3 S1


----------



## razgriz19

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> @TheOccupiedKashmir It seems like the CZ-807 has been collapsed into the CZ-806 BREN 2. The 2017 CZ USA catalogue has the CZ BREN 2 listed in 5.56x45 and 7.62x39.
> 
> 
> 
> http://cz-usa.com/hammer/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/CZ-USA-2017-Product-Catalog.pdf



I was reading somewhere that POF just made a new factory for 7.62x39 rounds. Maybe they're planning to equip the army with this caliber instead of 0.306 cal.


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

razgriz19 said:


> I was reading somewhere that POF just made a new factory for 7.62x39 rounds. Maybe they're planning to equip the army with this caliber instead of 0.306 cal.


7.62x39 mm is motivated in great part by COIN, which has become a fixed element of Pakistan's security doctrine, if not in FATA, then for the sake of defending CPEC. However, they want 7.62x51 mm for the Eastern Front.


----------



## ali_raza

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> 7.62x39 mm is motivated in great part by COIN, which has become a fixed element of Pakistan's security doctrine, if not in FATA, then for the sake of defending CPEC. However, they want 7.62x51 mm for the Eastern Front.


why not 5.57


----------



## razgriz19

ali_raza said:


> why not 5.57



Not enough power, enough Nato wanted heavier caliber in after few years in Aghanistan


----------



## ali_raza

razgriz19 said:


> Not enough power, enough Nato wanted heavier caliber in after few years in Aghanistan


what is difference in7.63/39 and7.62/51.
i know the other one is nato abd soviet respectively but i m interested in technical details


----------



## Gryphon

Meopta sights were used on the 7.62x51 CZ rifle(s) trialed in Pakistan, *PhDr. Ondrej Podel* (Head of Project Pakistan, CZ) told @TheOccupiedKashmir on Wednesday.

Podel refused to provide pictures of the x51 rifle saying that "We cannot share any pictures taken in Pakistan Army military areas." He also refused to confirm the names of other finalists in the competition.

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## TaimiKhan

ali_raza said:


> what is difference in7.63/39 and7.62/51.
> i know the other one is nato abd soviet respectively but i m interested in technical details



This pic will give you an idea how what 7.62mm means and what 39mm means. 
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...x39mm_round.svg/500px-7.62x39mm_round.svg.png

NATO 7.62*51mm round is longer, enabling more powder in it, thus more range and accuracy at longer ranges.

Read this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62×39mm


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## Zarvan




----------



## Army research

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Meopta sights were used on the 7.62x51 CZ rifle(s) trialed in Pakistan, *PhDr. Ondrej Podel* (Head of Project Pakistan, CZ) told @TheOccupiedKashmir on Wednesday.
> 
> Podel refused to provide pictures of the x51 rifle saying that "We cannot share any pictures taken in Pakistan Army military areas." He also refused to confirm the names of other finalists in the competition.


THANK YOU SIR!!!


----------



## my name is nobody

Check page 170 post: 
https://defence.pk/threads/pakistan...competition-2016.426049/page-170#post-8914999
7,62x51 Bren is the lower one


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## Army research

my name is nobody said:


> Check page 170 post:
> https://defence.pk/threads/pakistan...competition-2016.426049/page-170#post-8914999
> 7,62x51 Bren is the lower one


That is a DMR variant of scar


----------



## razgriz19

ali_raza said:


> what is difference in7.63/39 and7.62/51.
> i know the other one is nato abd soviet respectively but i m interested in technical details









Look at the size difference. .308 has a lot more gun powder.


----------



## Tiger Awan

just mentioned this in another thread 


cabatli_53 said:


> The projects Turkey and Pakistan seriously discuss and to be finalized in a short time.
> 
> -MPT-76 New produced MPT-76 that negative feed-backs reached on summer trials have been applied, will be sent to Pakistan for summer trials again.



@cabatli_53 do you have more details about it ??


----------



## cabatli_53

Tiger Awan said:


> just mentioned this in another thread
> 
> 
> @cabatli_53 do you have more details about it ??




Not yet bro. It is received in a Turkish magazine.

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## ali_raza

razgriz19 said:


> Look at the size difference. .308 has a lot more gun powder.


i know that brother.but i was interested in knowing power of 7.62/39 and its performance vis a vis 51 nato


----------



## my name is nobody

Army research said:


> That is a DMR variant of scar


No it is not SCAR, check the optical sight. Than check the front mechanical sight and compare it with existing SCAR models and CZ 807. And than check the part where buttstock is connected to the rifle - it is more robust than on SCAR.


----------



## Army research

my name is nobody said:


> No it is not SCAR, check the optical sight. Than check the front mechanical sight and compare it with existing SCAR models and CZ 807. And than check the part where buttstock is connected to the rifle - it is more robust than on SCAR.


Please on Google search 'SCAR DMR' or 'SCAR sniper variant' thank you.


----------



## Path-Finder

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Meopta sights were used on the 7.62x51 CZ rifle(s) trialed in Pakistan, *PhDr. Ondrej Podel* (Head of Project Pakistan, CZ) told @TheOccupiedKashmir on Wednesday.
> 
> Podel refused to provide pictures of the x51 rifle saying that "We cannot share any pictures taken in Pakistan Army military areas." He also refused to confirm the names of other finalists in the competition.



i don't have any doubts in what you are saying but the hunger to know more is creeping into me like Hazrat @Zarvan 

is it possible to learn about the nature of rifle's calibre change like swapping barrel, magwell & bolt carrier? what i am trying to say is barrel in x51, change of bolt carrier to x51, then does the entire lower receiver get changed or just the magwell gets changed? 

so a trooper has a 807 and he changes from x39 to x51 hypothetically!



my name is nobody said:


> Check page 170 post:
> https://defence.pk/threads/pakistan...competition-2016.426049/page-170#post-8914999
> 7,62x51 Bren is the lower one








that is a FN SCAR in rifle & DMR 
Hazrat @Zarvan

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## my name is nobody

Army research said:


> Please on Google search 'SCAR DMR' or 'SCAR sniper variant' thank you.


well first of all it is not called SCAR DMR - there are two versions SCAR H PR and SCAR H TPR. And guess what? it is neither of them. Why?because on the H PR and H TPR variants there is a longer forearm (like on this rifle) BUT on both SCAR longer variants there is significantly big hole on both sides of forearm. And more: both SCAR H PR and H TPR do not use magpul butstock. 

Please check the SCAR webpage

No need for appologies

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## django

Path-Finder said:


> i don't have any doubts in what you are saying but the hunger to know more is creeping into me like Hazrat @Zarvan
> 
> is it possible to learn about the nature of rifle's calibre change like swapping barrel, magwell & bolt carrier? what i am trying to say is barrel in x51, change of bolt carrier to x51, then does the entire lower receiver get changed or just the magwell gets changed?
> 
> so a trooper has a 807 and he changes from x39 to x51 hypothetically!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> that is a FN SCAR in rifle & DMR
> Hazrat @Zarvan


Are these Pak military personnel?


----------



## Path-Finder

my name is nobody said:


> well first of all it is not called SCAR DMR - there are two versions SCAR H PR and SCAR H TPR. And guess what? it is neither of them. Why?because on the H PR and H TPR variants there is a longer forearm (like on this rifle) BUT on both SCAR longer variants there is significantly big hole on both sides of forearm. And more: both SCAR H PR and H TPR do not use magpul butstock.
> 
> Please check the SCAR webpage
> 
> No need for appologies


you know what you have got me interested! the scope appears to be meopta MeoTac 3-12x50! The symbol on the scope in the image appears to be Meopta? granted it is not high quality! Hazrat @Zarvan do you have a better quality image since you posted it first?










after much closer inspection it doesn't appear to be a FN SCAR DMR, if you google DMR of SCAR the rifle has a groove cut in the chassis to access the gas regulator! like this;






However in this pic the DMR does not have the access to gas regulator!!! its a pretty big cut out in the chassis to not be visible!!!





this is my bongy i just came up with @TheOccupiedKashmir @Army research 






notice the butt stock on the 807!! and the scope as well!!! 




django said:


> Are these Pak military personnel?


that is a million dollar question which no one is sure about. but the rifle in black is interesting!!

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> you know what you have got me interested! the scope appears to be meopta MeoTac 3-12x50! The symbol on the scope in the image appears to be Meopta? granted it is not high quality! Hazrat @Zarvan do you have a better quality image since you posted it first?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> after much closer inspection it doesn't appear to be a FN SCAR DMR, if you google DMR of SCAR the rifle has a groove cut in the chassis to access the gas regulator! like this;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> However in this pic the DMR does not have the access to gas regulator!!! its a pretty big cut out in the chassis to not be visible!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> this is my bongy i just came up with @TheOccupiedKashmir @Army research
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> notice the butt stock on the 807!! and the scope as well!!!
> 
> 
> 
> that is a million dollar question which no one is sure about. but the rifle in black is interesting!!


NOPE !!!! This is best quality which I have


----------



## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> NOPE !!!! This is best quality which I have



Pakistan's Service Rifle (G-3, Type-56) Replacement Competition 2016.

Hazrat @Zarvan this guy @my name is nobody said this on the second day of IDEAS 2016 which we found out later on? What do you think?

@TheOccupiedKashmir this has to be without doubt CZ in 7.62x51


----------



## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Pakistan's Service Rifle (G-3, Type-56) Replacement Competition 2016.
> 
> Hazrat @Zarvan this guy @my name is nobody said this on the second day of IDEAS 2016 which we found out later on? What do you think?


No idea but recent talk with some Guys again suggest that BREN is here only to replace Type 56 for G3 competitors are SCAR and Beretta. So let's wait and see what happens I think we can hear about the winner any day from now on. 
@Horus @balixd @Arsalan @Oscar.



Path-Finder said:


> Pakistan's Service Rifle (G-3, Type-56) Replacement Competition 2016.
> 
> Hazrat @Zarvan this guy @my name is nobody said this on the second day of IDEAS 2016 which we found out later on? What do you think?
> 
> @TheOccupiedKashmir this has to be without doubt CZ in 7.62x51


If this is than it's definitely Marksman version not the Assault Rifle version which proves @Horus right on point that 7.62 X 51 which we have tested of BREN is DMR not Assault Rifle.


----------



## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> No idea but recent talk with some Guys again suggest that BREN is here only to replace Type 56 for G3 competitors are SCAR and Beretta. So let's wait and see what happens I think we can hear about the winner any day from now on.
> @Horus @balixd @Arsalan @Oscar.
> 
> 
> If this is than it's definitely Marksman version not the Assault Rifle version which proves @Horus right on point that 7.62 X 51 which we have tested of BREN is DMR not Assault Rifle.


Ok fine but one thing is now clear as day light, the possibility of CZ in x51 is now 100% without any doubts. We have the DMR in picture so a rifle variant will not be that difficult! At least you cant deny that Hazrat @Zarvan since you posted the pics congratulations are in order you blew the lid on it but didn't realise it  & @my name is nobody


----------



## Gryphon

Path-Finder said:


> is it possible to learn about the nature of rifle's calibre change like swapping barrel, magwell & bolt carrier? what i am trying to say is barrel in x51, change of bolt carrier to x51, then does the entire lower receiver get changed or just the magwell gets changed?
> 
> so a trooper has a 807 and he changes from x39 to x51 hypothetically!



I have no info to share.



Path-Finder said:


> you know what you have got me interested! the scope appears to be meopta MeoTac 3-12x50! The symbol on the scope in the image appears to be Meopta? granted it is not high quality! Hazrat @Zarvan do you have a better quality image since you posted it first?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> after much closer inspection it doesn't appear to be a FN SCAR DMR, if you google DMR of SCAR the rifle has a groove cut in the chassis to access the gas regulator! like this;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> However in this pic the DMR does not have the access to gas regulator!!! its a pretty big cut out in the chassis to not be visible!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> this is my bongy i just came up with @TheOccupiedKashmir @Army research
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> notice the butt stock on the 807!! and the scope as well!!!
> 
> 
> 
> that is a million dollar question which no one is sure about. but the rifle in black is interesting!!



To me, they don't appear to be from Pak Navy (marines) or SSG (N). Neither do I expect to see SSW testing weapons for PA.

Since we know CZ 807 can convert from one caliber to the other, the 7.62x51 CZ 807 DMR will NOT differ much in appearance (except constant curve magazine) from the x39 CZ 807 pictured above (IDEAS 2016 pic). The rifle shown in the picture (below the SCAR) looks quite different.



Path-Finder said:


> *Ok fine but one thing is now clear as day light, the possibility of CZ in x51 is now 100% without any doubts.* We have the DMR in picture so a rifle variant will not be that difficult!



You have a CZ official mentioning x51 CZ 807 trials by Pak Army thrice. Still you have doubts.

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## Zarvan

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> I have no info to share.
> 
> 
> 
> To me, they don't appear to be from Pak Navy (marines) or SSG (N). Neither do I expect to see SSW testing weapons for PA.
> 
> Since we know CZ 807 can convert from one caliber to the other, the 7.62x51 CZ 807 DMR will NOT differ much in looks (except constant curve magazine) from the x39 CZ 807 pictured above (IDEAS 2016 pic). The rifle shown in the picture (below the SCAR) looks quite different.
> 
> 
> 
> You have a CZ official mentioning x51 CZ 807 trials by Pak Army thrice. Still you have doubts.



Yes we have doubts because if CZ BREN 7.62 X 51 had done so awesome in our trials and in fact beaten SCAR in accuracy than there was no point of keeping it hidden till now. They should have and would revealed it on IDEAS 2016 as they revealed CZ 807. 

Secondly all rifles were also tested by SSGN and SSW and Marines. All of there opinions were taken because most likely they would also adopt these rifles which would be chosen. This is one of the reason why final decision is taking so much time. 

@Path-Finder

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## Tiger Awan

Zarvan said:


> Yes we have doubts because if CZ BREN 7.62 X 51 had done so awesome in our trials and in fact beaten SCAR in accuracy than there was no point of keeping it hidden till now. They should have and would revealed it on IDEAS 2016 as they revealed CZ 807.
> 
> Secondly all rifles were also tested by SSGN and SSW and Marines. All of there opinions were taken because most likely they would also adopt these rifles which would be chosen. This is one of the reason why final decision is taking so much time.
> 
> @Path-Finder



BREN doesn't have to beat SCAR. It only needs to reasonably accurate plus offer good TOT plus economically feasible to be selected. I think we all agree that

SCAR performed best in the trials

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## The Eagle

django said:


> Are these Pak military personnel?



No but most probably Columbian guys......

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## Zarvan

The Eagle said:


> No but most probably Columbian guys......


NOPE they are not Colombian. They are definitely Pakistani Guys may be some new Uniform worn by a Naval unit .


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Yes we have doubts because if CZ BREN 7.62 X 51 had done so awesome in our trials and in fact beaten SCAR in accuracy than there was no point of keeping it hidden till now. They should have and would revealed it on IDEAS 2016 as they revealed CZ 807.
> 
> Secondly all rifles were also tested by SSGN and SSW and Marines. All of there opinions were taken because most likely they would also adopt these rifles which would be chosen. This is one of the reason why final decision is taking so much time.
> 
> @Path-Finder


Hazrat @Zarvan you are incredibly small minded on this issue and posses complete bias in your views, but for your happiness; 
SCAR performed best in the trials


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat @Zarvan you are incredibly small minded on this issue and posses complete bias in your views, but for your happiness;
> SCAR performed best in the trials







SCAR

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## Path-Finder

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> I have no info to share.
> 
> 
> 
> To me, they don't appear to be from Pak Navy (marines) or SSG (N). Neither do I expect to see SSW testing weapons for PA.
> 
> Since we know CZ 807 can convert from one caliber to the other, the 7.62x51 CZ 807 DMR will NOT differ much in appearance (except constant curve magazine) from the x39 CZ 807 pictured above (IDEAS 2016 pic). The rifle shown in the picture (below the SCAR) looks quite different.
> 
> 
> 
> You have a CZ official mentioning x51 CZ 807 trials by Pak Army thrice. Still you have doubts.


I have no doubts about CZ in x51 I was being 'mukhatib' to Hazrat @Zarvan who come what may refuses to see reality.



Zarvan said:


> View attachment 372422
> 
> SCAR


ishq'e SCAR zinda hai


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## Gryphon

Path-Finder said:


> ishq'e SCAR zinda hai



Jab @Horus mujhe mod banaye ga, mai isko ussi din ban karuga.

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## Path-Finder

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Jis din @Horus mujhe mod banaye ga, mai isko ussi din ban karuga.


 that means we will be denied the Mufakry & Derwaishy . you are a true SCAR hater


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## Tiger Awan

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Jab @Horus mujhe mod banaye ga, mai isko ussi din ban karuga.



Oh plz dont do this, this thread is so much fun. I was wondering what we will do once guns are selected officially and there is nothing to speculate on. We would lose all the fun

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## Gryphon

Abhi mai mod bana nai


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## Path-Finder

Tiger Awan said:


> Oh plz dont do this, this thread is so much fun. I was wondering what we will do once guns are selected officially and there is nothing to speculate on. We would lose all the fun


once the rifles are selected we SCAR haters can then collect chanda to purchase a imitation plastic SCAR for our Hazrat! because this ishq'e SCAR is muqadas

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## Zarvan




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## Gryphon

In 2015, Ceska Zbrojovka offered the CZ 807 to New Zealand along with CZ 805 40 mm grenade launcher. LMT LM8 CQB was selected.







https://fyi.org.nz/request/3852/response/12690/attach/4/OIA 2016 2436 Gaylard signed letter.pdf

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## Path-Finder

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> In 2015, Ceska Zbrojovka offered the CZ 807 to New Zealand along with CZ 805 40 mm grenade launcher. LMT LM8 CQB was selected.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://fyi.org.nz/request/3852/response/12690/attach/4/OIA 2016 2436 Gaylard signed letter.pdf


bloody hell! so with all these big names were beaten by a small company that makes precision rifles not mass produced ones. That is interesting, great share

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## The Eagle

> The Czech assault rifle CZ 807 BREN firing the Soviet 7.62×39mm cartridge is said to be one of three finalists in the Pakistan Army's search for a new weapon to replace its decades-old Chinese Type 56 and the German Heckler & Koch G3 rifles.
> 
> The claim was made by the CZ 807's maker, "Česká zbrojovka a.s. Uherský Brod (ČZUB)," or the Czech Arms Factory.
> 
> ČZUB Director of Military Weapons Martin Šanda told Czech media the CZ 807 is a special version for the Pakistan Army derived from the CZ 805 used by the Armed Forces of the Czech Republic.
> 
> "(The) Czech arms industry has successfully participated in the tender for the rearmament of the Pakistani army with its CZ 807," said Šanda.
> 
> "Of the original eight candidates which met the extremely rigorous demands of the Pakistani army, there were only three finalists, including the CZ 807."
> 
> The other two alleged finalists haven't been revealed but informed sources claim these two are the Kalashnikov AK-103 and the FN SCAR-H.
> 
> The case for the AK-103 is strong since it's a Russian weapon and fires a 7.62×39mm cartridge round similar to that of the Type 56 (a Chinese version of the AK-47). The same can also be said for the SCAR-H since this weapon also fires a 7.62x39mm round.
> 
> 
> Among the other firms competing for the Pakistan Army's new assault rifle are the Heckler & Koch HK-416 and the Beretta ARX-200. The ARX is chambered for the 7.62x51mm NATO round while the HK-416 fires the 5.56x45mm NATO round.
> 
> Šanda said rifle tests were conducted this year, "in all weather conditions from the Himalayan glaciers, where the temperature dropped below -40° C up to the jungle or desert, where they climbed to the contrary, we recorded + 54° C."
> 
> "Apart from these tests conducted directly by users of the combat units and weapons, they were tested in laboratory under applicable methodologies."
> 
> *Šanda said the CZ 807 was evaluated as "the best in the context of user tests, for example, but also as the most accurate direct comparison of standardized absolute world elite.*
> 
> "Additionally, the testing was attended throughout by CZ representatives who collected valuable data for further development of service weapons. Some of them spent most of the year in Pakistan in difficult conditions."




Interestingly I read, 



Path-Finder said:


> bloody hell! so with all these big names were beaten by a small company that makes precision rifles not mass produced ones. That is interesting, great share

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## Gryphon

The Eagle said:


> Interestingly I read,



Old news, posted on page 182.

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## The Eagle

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Old news, posted on page 182.



Yes, I was just pointing few important points with respect to the CZ 807 quality in trials as well as the competition statndar, as a refresher that I highlighted in article.

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## Gryphon

I created a Wikipedia article for CZ 807.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CZ_807

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## Khafee

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> I created a Wikipedia article for CZ 807.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CZ_807


Good Job. Proud of you Bro. Keep it up

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## Gryphon

cabatli_53 said:


> Not yet bro. It is received in a Turkish magazine.



Any link / photo of the magazine article ??

This news appears incorrect to me because three companies have already been shortlisted (out of total 8) and MKEK offered 7.62x51mm MPT-76 rifle only. No 7.62x39mm variant is in sight.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Any link / photo of the magazine article ??
> 
> This news appears incorrect to me because three companies have already been shortlisted (out of total 8) and MKEK offered 7.62x51mm MPT-76 rifle only. No 7.62x39mm variant is in sight.


It's from the latest Turkish language edition of MSI. You should be able to get a workable translation using the Android Google Translator app. Rough translation: they sent some rifles, they didn't do too well in the summer (but good in the winter). The negative feedback was taken in by MKEK and MKEK is now waiting for the Pak Army to ask for the new rifles (for new summer tests).

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## Gryphon

Photo by: POF Official

Photographs of POF Stall activities on 23-11-2016 (2nd day of IDEAS-2016) held at karachi . 04 LOUs were signed between POF & international companies at POF Stall on this occasion.












Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Rough translation: they sent some rifles, they didn't do too well in the summer (but good in the winter). The negative feedback was taken in by MKEK and *MKEK is now waiting for the Pak Army to ask for the new rifles (for new summer tests).*



Not likely. 

We already have a LoU with CZ (one of the three finalists). Also, MKEK is offering only x51 rifle.

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## Tiger Awan

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> I created a Wikipedia article for CZ 807.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CZ_807



Nice work bro. 

Was happy to see wikipedia suggesting SCAR in "see also" section


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## Gryphon

Tiger Awan said:


> Nice work bro.
> 
> Was happy to see wikipedia suggesting SCAR in "see also" section



I added those in 'See also".


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## Zarvan




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## django

Zarvan said:


>


Excellent recoil.


----------



## Cool_Soldier

As trials have been done, so we are very lose to have good news of new generation Rifle for our soldiers.
Good luck.


----------



## LegitimateIdiot

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> I created a Wikipedia article for CZ 807.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CZ_807


mashallah brother


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## Gryphon




----------



## Zarvan



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## WaLeEdK2

Zarvan said:


>



It would be nice to see regulars holding those.

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## PAR 5

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Photo by: POF Official
> 
> Photographs of POF Stall activities on 23-11-2016 (2nd day of IDEAS-2016) held at karachi . 04 LOUs were signed between POF & international companies at POF Stall on this occasion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not likely.
> 
> We already have a LoU with CZ (one of the three finalists). Also, MKEK is offering only x51 rifle.



USMAN BHATTI seen here signing the so called LoU is the DIRECTOR OF 'EXPORTS' at POF. This LoU represents POF selling its goods outside of Pakistan and has nothing to do with the Rifle Program of the Armed Forces

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

PAR 5 said:


> USMAN BHATTI seen here signing the so called LoU is the DIRECTOR OF 'EXPORTS' at POF. This LoU represents POF selling its goods outside of Pakistan and has nothing to do with the Rifle Program of the Armed Forces


Four LoUs were signed, one of them was this:



> The 3rd LOU was signed between POF and M/s. CeskaZbrojovka, Czech Republic. According to LOU M/s. CeskaZbrojovka, Czech Republic and Pakistan Ordnance Factories declared that they will intensively negotiate a delivery of complete technology for the production of small arms to Pakistan Ordnance Factories, POF. Mutual interest refers to gradual launching of production in Pakistan, ranging from light assembly to maximum localization of production. Within this cooperation, transfer of technology as well as technical support including technical training of the personnel for Pakistan Ordnance Factories is expected.



http://www.radio.gov.pk/24-Nov-2016...-signed-during-ideas-2016-underway-in-karachi

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## Gryphon

PAR 5 said:


> USMAN BHATTI seen here signing the so called LoU is the DIRECTOR OF 'EXPORTS' at POF. This LoU represents POF selling its goods outside of Pakistan and has nothing to do with the Rifle Program of the Armed Forces



You have pain in your *** or what ?

The meaning of the 'so called LoU' was reported by Radio Pakistan ( posted by @Bilal Khan (Quwa) above ) and confirmed by a CZ official. This is what he told me:

"Regarding [the] LOU between CZ and POF, we cannot comment *on the ongoing negotiation*, however there was [a] press release in Radio Pakistan about general meaning of our mutual intentions to cooperate with POF especially in terms of *transfer our latest and most advanced technology to Pakistan.*"


----------



## Gryphon

@PAR 5 

Your post was deleted for being rude / abusive. If you continue with those unconstructive posts, you will be banned.

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## ali_raza

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> @PAR 5
> 
> Your post was deleted for being rude / abusive. If you continue with those unconstructive posts, you will be banned.


sir can u try and post some pics pf cz807 would be appreciated


----------



## Gryphon

ali_raza said:


> sir can u try and post some pics pf cz807 would be appreciated



I have posted a pic of 7.62x39mm CZ 807 on page 211. 7.62x51mm CZ 807 pic was refused by the CZ official.


----------



## ali_raza

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> I have posted a pic of 7.62x39mm CZ 807 on page 211. 7.62x51mm CZ 807 pic was refused by the CZ official.


hmm fair enough.one more thing can u ask ur guy as if the cz have heating issues as i saw alote of videos and it was complained that it gets too hot cos its aluminum


----------



## Gryphon

ali_raza said:


> hmm fair enough.one more thing can u ask ur guy as if the cz have heating issues as i saw alote of videos and it was complained that it gets too hot cos its aluminum



Are you sure those are CZ 807 videos and not CZ 805 ??


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## Zarvan




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## ali_raza

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Are you sure those are CZ 807 videos and not CZ 805 ??


yea they were 805 bren civilian mainly


----------



## Super Falcon

Hope that scar wins

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## ali_raza

Super Falcon said:


> Hope that scar wins


sir g use ur links and find whats going on


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## Arsalan

So dosto,,, abhi tak dhoar lagi hoi ha?  

These things do take some time!!

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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> So dosto,,, abhi tak dhoar lagi hoi ha?
> 
> These things do take some time!!


Where were you for past few days and yes we are still waiting. Hopefully we would hear the news soon.


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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> Where were you for past few days and yes we are still waiting. Hopefully we would hear the news soon.


Was busy with "getting married"!

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## Kompromat

I spoke with the FN rep. He said that due to the change of guard at the GHQ, the tender was moving slow, he hoped that as things settle down, we'd hear some news soon. He did however confirm that SSW had selected SCAR-H to replace the FN-2000.

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## Zarvan

Horus said:


> I spoke with the FN rep. He said that due to the change of guard at the GHQ, the tender was moving slow, he hoped that as things settle down, we'd hear some news soon. He did however confirm that SSW had selected SCAR-H to replace the FN-2000.


Finally some words from you. @Path-Finder @TheOccupiedKashmir @Tipu7 @Sulman Badshah

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## monitor

Pakistan Air Force's elite SS Wing is expected to make a transition from 5.56mm NATO round (FN-2000) to 7.62x51mm (FN-SCAR-H).

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## django

@Path-Finder the news from Horus about the SSW selecting SCAR-H has made Hazrat sahibs day

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## Path-Finder

django said:


> @Path-Finder the news from Horus about the SSW selecting SCAR-H has made Hazrat sahibs day


Hazrat @Zarvan is in his right to be happy BUT SSW is a special force unit and small purchase has been made, Still waiting for the big announcement!  
Plus there is a new ishq on the block and its from H&K  will it knock SCAR from the pedestal? Stay tuned to

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## django

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat @Zarvan is in his right to be happy BUT SSW is a special force unit and small purchase has been made, Still waiting for the big announcement!
> *Plus there is a new ishq on the block and its from H&K*  will it knock SCAR from the pedestal? Stay tuned to


----------



## Fenrir

Readerdefence said:


> Zarvan what's the difference between two ? Any info plz



HK416 is a rugged 5.56 primary arm. It's basically a modernized variant the M4 which it's based on, but is more reliable.





The HK417 is a 7.62 battle rifle/Designated Marksman Rifle used for precision fire support, though it is also used for sniper purposes too.










It has a smaller mag size, typically is fitted with a bipod and long-range optic and is considered an upgrade over the G3.

The HK433, the new rifle from H&K is a cross between the G36 and HK416 in terms of handling and should perform similarly to the later (omitting the G36's reliability issues). It's 5.56 caliber as well.





Looks nice, I'd love to have some time on it myself. I've fired the other two while in the Norwegian Armed Forces.

There aren't too many differences between the two rifles 5.56 rifles. The HK417 is a larger HK416 while the HK433 should be very similar and an easy transition for users of either firearm. NATO standard compliant, using a ubiquitous ammo type, similar ballistic performance, there's not much difference really.

Honestly I think the HK433 looks kind of weird.

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## PAR 5

Horus said:


> I spoke with the FN rep. He said that due to the change of guard at the GHQ, the tender was moving slow, he hoped that as things settle down, we'd hear some news soon. He did however confirm that SSW had selected SCAR-H to replace the FN-2000.



I concur with that. PAF SSW has recommended the SCAR-H for replacement of its rather bulky FN2000. But the problem is that the new administration at GHQ at this time is not too keen to progress with the purchase knowing that funds from Finance Ministry are not forthcoming. Lets see how long can the poor vendors wait.


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## Super Falcon

ali_raza said:


> sir g use ur links and find whats going on


I'm have no idea


----------



## ali_raza

PAR 5 said:


> I concur with that. PAF SSW has recommended the SCAR-H for replacement of its rather bulky FN2000. But the problem is that the new administration at GHQ at this time is not too keen to progress with the purchase knowing that funds from Finance Ministry are not forthcoming. Lets see how long can the poor vendors wait.


and why not ministry giving money.why can one metro be stopped for our soldiers safety


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## Zarvan

ali_raza said:


> and why not ministry giving money.why can one metro be stopped for our soldiers safety


I think decision will be made soon as we have increase the ammo production also we should expect the decision of Rifle soon.

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## R Wing

The HK417 is a good contender for our Standard Battle Rifle with the HK416 (already used by many Tier 1 spec ops units around the world) would be a good fit for the SSG. 

I was shocked to see even Tier 1 "Zarrar" operators carrying M4s when there are better options out there, and it's not that expensive to equip a small unit like Zarrar with best-in-class kit.


----------



## Zarvan

R Wing said:


> The HK417 is a good contender for our Standard Battle Rifle with the HK416 (already used by many Tier 1 spec ops units around the world) would be a good fit for the SSG.
> 
> I was shocked to see even Tier 1 "Zarrar" operators carrying M4s when there are better options out there, and it's not that expensive to equip a small unit like Zarrar with best-in-class kit.


First M4 came free secondly SSG loves M4 and thirdly yes not difficult to get weapons for SSG. The real question when will infantry get new Assault Rifles.


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## ali_raza

Zarvan said:


> First M4 came free secondly SSG loves M4 and thirdly yes not difficult to get weapons for SSG. The real question when will infantry get new Assault Rifles.


but i heard SSG was reluctant for any non ak guns and musharraf had to push in on them to modernize there looks


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## Gryphon

Horus said:


> He did however confirm that SSW had selected SCAR-H to replace the FN-2000.



SCAR-H rifles for SSW will likely be purchased directly from the OEM with no local assembly involved. I believe SCAR will remain confined to the SF's.

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## Kompromat

Yes, off the shelf pieces. 



TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> SCAR-H rifles for SSW will likely be purchased directly from the OEM with no local assembly involved. I believe SCAR will remain confined to the SF's.

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## Gryphon

Horus said:


> Yes, off the shelf pieces.



A CZ official confirmed in Dec-Jan (See page 211) that there were 'ongoing negotiations' between CZ & POF.

FN rep. told you 'that due to the change of guard at the GHQ, the tender was moving slow'.

Any more info ?


----------



## ali_raza

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> A CZ official confirmed in Dec-Jan (See page 211) that there were 'ongoing negotiations' between CZ & POF.
> 
> FN rep. told you 'that due to the change of guard at the GHQ, the tender was moving slow'.
> 
> Any more info ?


this thing will take more time.on twitter i heard turks are in for a grab too.what u say on this matter?


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## Gryphon

ali_raza said:


> this thing will take more time.on twitter i heard turks are in for a grab too.what u say on this matter?



A Turkish magazine has reported that the MPT-76 failed summer trials in Pakistan. Improvements were made and the company wants PA to test it again.


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## ali_raza

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> A Turkish magazine has reported that the MPT-76 failed summer trials in Pakistan. Improvements were made and the company wants PA to test it again.


so we can forget about scar?

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## Path-Finder

ali_raza said:


> so we can forget about scar?


Are you trying to give Hazrat @Zarvan a heart attack?

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## django

Path-Finder said:


> Are you trying to give Hazrat @Zarvan a heart attack?


.......The news of SSW procuring SCAR-H should blunt the effects.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> A CZ official confirmed in Dec-Jan (See page 211) that there were 'ongoing negotiations' between CZ & POF.
> 
> FN rep. told you 'that due to the change of guard at the GHQ, the tender was moving slow'.
> 
> Any more info ?


IMO it's going to depend on how these negotiations pan out. If a vendor (FN, CZ or otherwise) offer a reasonable deal with a manageable upfront (in line with what GHQ can spend), then things will begin moving. Otherwise, they'll reset and, perhaps, look to China or Turkey. The MPT-76's unit cost is $1,200 to $1,500, and that's made in Turkey, it should be <$1,000 if made in Pakistan. Moreover, it being an AR-derivative isn't an entirely bad thing, plenty of commercial support and components on the market.


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## Path-Finder

django said:


> .......The news of SSW procuring SCAR-H should blunt the effects.


noo that is as effective as a heart patient taking aspirin before the heart attack. what's needed is blood thinning medication to prevent it and that is not happening

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## django

Path-Finder said:


> noo that is as effective as a heart patient taking aspirin before the heart attack. what's needed is blood thinning medication to prevent it and that is not happening


LOL,,,btw if finances permit which rifle would you prefer? SCAR


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## The Sandman

django said:


> LOL,,,btw if finances permit which rifle would you prefer? SCAR


Really sorry to jump in but HK416 would be the best choice imo nothing beats German technology.

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## django

The Sandman said:


> Really sorry to jump in but HK416 would be the best choice imo nothing beats German technology.


No need to apologise bro and the HK416 is a terrific rifle but the Krauts refuse to sell it to any non NATO nation, even the cash rich Saudis were declined.Danke

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## The Sandman

django said:


> No need to apologise bro and the HK416 is a terrific rifle but the Krauts refuse to sell it to any non NATO nation, even the cash rich Saudis were declined.Danke


Dammit that is such an awesome rifle but wait Turkey have those...  #ifykwim

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## Path-Finder

django said:


> LOL,,,btw if finances permit which rifle would you prefer? SCAR


Well I am not a strong ashiq like Hazrat so I have gone from SCAR>ARX>CZ. I am all for CZ on the grounds, the company as a whole is willing to work in tandem with PA which is far more lucrative than a company just selling its rifles.

Unfortunately Hazrat's pedestal is occupied by SCAR and logic doesn't come into Ishq 



The Sandman said:


> Really sorry to jump in but HK416 would be the best choice imo nothing beats German technology.


416 is 5.56 only and its nothing new it's based on AR10 platform designed in the 1960's. It is a improvement of the Stoner design BUT its out dated and design like SCAR,Beretta & CZ are the future

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## django

The Sandman said:


> Dammit that is such an awesome rifle but wait Turkey have those...  #ifykwim


The Turkish MPT76 has some influence form HK417, a new batch of these rifles is arriving for further testing in summer conditions.Kudos



Path-Finder said:


> Well I am not a strong ashiq like Hazrat so I have gone from SCAR>ARX>CZ. I am all for CZ on the grounds of the company as a whole is willing to work in tandem with PA which is far more lucrative than a company just selling its rifles.
> 
> Unfortunately Hazrat's pedestal is occupied by SCAR and logic doesn't come into Ishq
> 
> 
> 416 is 5.56 only and its nothing new it's based on AR10 platform designed in the 1960's. It is a improvement of the Stoner design BUT its out dated and design like SCAR,Beretta & CZ are the future


I understand what you are saying, but which rifle do you feel would serve the jawan best in a shoot out with Gangadeshis?

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## Path-Finder

django said:


> The Turkish MPT76 has some influence form HK417, a new batch of these rifles is arriving for further testing in summer conditions.Kudos
> 
> 
> I understand what you are saying, but which rifle do you feel would serve the jawan best in a shoot out with Gangadeshis?


I am 100% confident in CZ!

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## django

Path-Finder said:


> I am 100% confident in CZ!


Then so am I!

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## Thorough Pro

CZ is the best bet



Path-Finder said:


> I am 100% confident in CZ!

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## Gryphon

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IMO it's going to depend on how these negotiations pan out. If a vendor (FN, CZ or otherwise) offer a reasonable deal with a manageable upfront (in line with what GHQ can spend), then things will begin moving. Otherwise, they'll reset and, perhaps, look to China or Turkey. The MPT-76's unit cost is $1,200 to $1,500, and that's made in Turkey, it should be <$1,000 if made in Pakistan. Moreover, it being an AR-derivative isn't an entirely bad thing, plenty of commercial support and components on the market.



The cost of CZ 807 and MPT-76 doesn't differ much. One thing you have not considered above is that the CZ rifle has a simple caliber conversion process. With such a large no of Chinese AK-47's in service, I don't foresee a POF assembled / produced MPT-76 and imported x39 rifles.

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## ali_raza

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> The cost of CZ 807 and MPT-76 doesn't differ much. One thing you have not considered above is that the CZ rifle has a simple caliber conversion process. With such a large no of Chinese AK-47's in service, I don't foresee a POF assembled / produced MPT-76 and imported x39 rifles.


so we can not expect a 5.56 rifle ever,?


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## Areesh

Arsalan said:


> FN SCAR is out of the competition!!




Yesssss .

@Path-Finder @django Bern is coming

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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> FN SCAR is out of the competition!!


And your source is ???????????


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## Arsalan

Areesh said:


> Yesssss .
> 
> @Path-Finder @django Bern is coming


well i was messing with @Zarvan , nothing else. 

Just checking his "response time". IMPRESSIVE! 



Zarvan said:


> And your source is ???????????


Bro do you go out to eat and sleep and attend to other calls of nature or you are here 24/7 to see is anyone is saying anything against SCAR

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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> well i was messing with @Zarvan , nothing else.
> 
> Just checking his "response time". IMPRESSIVE!
> 
> 
> Bro do you go out to eat and sleep and attend to other calls of nature or you are here 24/7 to see is anyone is saying anything against SCAR


I just ended up messaging Horus

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## ali_raza

Areesh said:


> Yesssss .
> 
> @Path-Finder @django Bern is coming


u mean burn

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## Areesh

Arsalan said:


> well i was messing with @Zarvan , nothing else.
> 
> Just checking his "response time". IMPRESSIVE!




LMAO


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## Path-Finder

Areesh said:


> Yesssss .
> 
> @Path-Finder @django Bern is coming





Arsalan said:


> well i was messing with @Zarvan , nothing else.
> 
> Just checking his "response time". IMPRESSIVE!
> 
> 
> Bro do you go out to eat and sleep and attend to other calls of nature or you are here 24/7 to see is anyone is saying anything against SCAR


Now that is very naughty . 

Hazrat @Zarvan see how many people are mocking you and you say I am being laughed at . Your obsession is completely off the charts and utterly childish!!!


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## niaz

I am sorry to say that I am not a fan of 5.56 mm cartridge. If I am on the front-line, I would want that my one bullet should incapacitate the enemy soldier to the extent that after being hit, he cannot shoot back.

Admittedly, I have only hunted dear and never shot at a person in anger. However, in my opinion, the advantage of being able to carry more ammo does not compensate for the fact that the injured enemy is able to shoot back at me.

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## Gryphon

ali_raza said:


> so we can not expect a 5.56 rifle ever,?



There was a requirement for 5.56 NATO assault rifles some years back and POF wanted to develop one based on the G3. Later, PA scrapped those plans.

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## Zarvan

The Belgian Navy has tested the sniper rifle FN SCAR-H PR


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## Zarvan



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## Tiger Awan

Path-Finder said:


> I am 100% confident in CZ!



after SCAR, we have a BREN lover too here

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## ali_raza

i think this will take more time.or maybe till 23 march they can give us a surprise u never know


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## Path-Finder

Tiger Awan said:


> after SCAR, we have a BREN lover too here


Khuda da wasta. We have a fidai ashiq'e SCAR which is Hazrat @Zarvan say anything against it and you will have some secret society laughing at you.

I am neither fidai or ashiq'e CZ.

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## PWFI

Zarvan said:


> I just ended up messaging Horus


 love you bro


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## django

Areesh said:


> Yesssss .
> 
> @Path-Finder @django Bern is coming


I had a feeling, SCAR proved to be too expensive.


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## ali_raza

i heard scar will be bought off the shelf for some forces thats sure


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## R Wing

Zarvan said:


> First M4 came free secondly SSG loves M4 and thirdly yes not difficult to get weapons for SSG. The real question when will infantry get new Assault Rifles.



Agreed, sir. 

But even if it came free, it's fine for the "regular" SSG units --- but the small "elite within the elite" Tier 1 units like Zarrar, etc., should really have the best of the best (like HK416s, an obvious improvement over the M4s).

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## django

R Wing said:


> Agreed, sir.
> 
> But even if it came free, it's fine for the "regular" SSG units --- but the small "elite within the elite" Tier 1 units like Zarrar, etc., should really have the best of the best (like HK416s, an obvious improvement over the M4s).


They may well have them, ISPR may not be releasing the footage.


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## pzfz

5.56 would be a monumental, generational mistake. Good thing CZ is multi-caliber, however m-c rifles are a case of "ok for anything but good at nothing". Instead of a rifle competition/tender, the brass should be deciding about the caliber they want for the future. Then go from there. Besides the 7.62 NATO, 7.62x39, and 5.56x45 there are other calibers under research (6.0 or 6.5) that are solutions for the battlefield of tomorrow. Pak generals, as usual, seem to be fighting the last war.

I don't mind the delay. There is no generational break thru with regards to rifle/carbine technology - though there are a few ideas like the caseless 6.5mm. Just upgrade the g3s and get the sf a few modern rifles. Plan should be to get the SF specific examples. For the foreseeable future, the type 56-ii is just fine with a smattering of /aktypes/m4/aug/scar/sigs is a-ok. Money can be better spent on personal protectional, comms, el-ops etc.


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## Zarvan

pzfz said:


> 5.56 would be a monumental, generational mistake. Good thing CZ is multi-caliber, however m-c rifles are a case of "ok for anything but good at nothing". Instead of a rifle competition/tender, the brass should be deciding about the caliber they want for the future. Then go from there. Besides the 7.62 NATO, 7.62x39, and 5.56x45 there are other calibers under research (6.0 or 6.5) that are solutions for the battlefield of tomorrow. Pak generals, as usual, seem to be fighting the last war.
> 
> I don't mind the delay. There is no generational break thru with regards to rifle/carbine technology - though there are a few ideas like the caseless 6.5mm. Just upgrade the g3s and get the sf a few modern rifles. Plan should be to get the SF specific examples. For the foreseeable future, the type 56-ii is just fine with a smattering of /aktypes/m4/aug/scar/sigs is a-ok. Money can be better spent on personal protectional, comms, el-ops etc.


If you haven't noticed most countries are changing there Assault Rifles. So we are not the only one but list is massive


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## Path-Finder

django said:


> I had a feeling, SCAR proved to be too expensive.


careful!!! you may be subjected to a laugh!

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## pzfz

if you haven't noticed they're all smaller countries that have the money. Making wholesale changes is easier for them. Plus they're advanced European countries. Most are just getting it for their frontline/sf troops. Not one army the size of Pakistan's is making such a change. US is staying the same. As is China. Russia. India as well. UK ditto - though going for LMT for some of its troops. Germany/France only because their previous guns were massive failures. Turkey won't equip all/most of their troops with the mpt. Even Belgium where SCAR is made won't go for a full conversion. Yours is all wishful thinking.


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## Zarvan

pzfz said:


> if you haven't noticed they're all smaller countries that have the money. Making wholesale changes is easier for them. Plus they're advanced European countries. Most are just getting it for their frontline/sf troops. Not one army the size of Pakistan's is making such a change. US is staying the same. As is China. Russia. India as well. UK ditto - though going for LMT for some of its troops. Germany/France only because their previous guns were massive failures. Turkey won't equip all/most of their troops with the mpt. Even Belgium where SCAR is made won't go for a full conversion. Yours is all wishful thinking.


No it's not Pakistan when decides goes for it. And most countries are going for full conversion and relatively not so small countries are also replacing Rifles. It's world wide phenomena


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## Thorough Pro

Please keep all ropes out of reach of *Z*












Areesh said:


> Yesssss .
> 
> @Path-Finder @django Bern is coming



What's the point of carrying more ammo if you need multiple rounds to neutralize one combatant?



niaz said:


> I am sorry to say that I am not a fan of 5.56 mm cartridge. If I am on the front-line, I would want that my one bullet should incapacitate the enemy soldier to the extent that after being hit, he cannot shoot back.
> 
> Admittedly, I have only hunted dear and never shot at a person in anger. However, in my opinion, the advantage of being able to carry more ammo does not compensate for the fact that the injured enemy is able to shoot back at me.

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## Gryphon

Sayı: OCAK 2017/140

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## Zarvan

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Sayı: OCAK 2017/140


@Horus How MPT-76 performed in tests ?


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Zarvan said:


> @Horus How MPT-76 performed in tests ?


Good in winter. Not good in summer. MKEK said they addressed Pakistan's issues in the production version of the MPT-76, but are waiting to be called for tests again.


----------



## Zarvan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Good in winter. Not good in summer. MKEK said they addressed Pakistan's issues in the production version of the MPT-76, but are waiting to be called for tests again.


And what about sniper and also Pakistan was testing various HandGuns as far as I know and also Machine Guns any news on them


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Zarvan said:


> And what about sniper and also Pakistan was testing various HandGuns as far as I know and also Machine Guns any news on them


No info on the other weapons or programs.

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## ghazi52



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## ali_raza

ghazi52 said:


>


why sniper rifle in battle rifle thread


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## Zarvan




----------



## R Wing

django said:


> They may well have them, ISPR may not be releasing the footage.



Quite possible, but it's not some top secret weapon that they need to hide. 

Wajahat S Khan's show which showed Zarrar's training etc showed kit that, while pretty cool for Pakistani standards, was still pretty lacking relative to the kit carried by most intl Tier 1 units at the forefront of CT. Yes, Pakistan is not a super rich first-world country --- but I'm sure we can afford the best available gear for our tiny Tier 1 units.

Thoughts, sir?

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## django

R Wing said:


> Quite possible, but it's not some top secret weapon that they need to hide.
> 
> Wajahat S Khan's show which showed Zarrar's training etc showed kit that, while pretty cool for Pakistani standards, was still pretty lacking relative to the kit carried by most intl Tier 1 units at the forefront of CT. Yes, Pakistan is not a super rich first-world country --- but I'm sure we can afford the best available gear for our tiny Tier 1 units.
> 
> Thoughts, sir?


Perhaps they were in the process of procuring upgrades whilst that Mahaz doc was being filmed, I suspect they are not showing all their cards for one reason or another.Kudos

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## Naveed66

can someone tell me how many rifles we are testing. im very confused at the moment. some source say that we are testing 5 some say 8 and some say 10.


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## Zarvan

Naveed66 said:


> can someone tell me how many rifles we are testing. im very confused at the moment. some source say that we are testing 5 some say 8 and some say 10.


It started with only 5 but later few more Rifles came but How many no body knows.

@balixd @Horus @Oscar


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## Gryphon

Naveed66 said:


> can someone tell me how many rifles we are testing. im very confused at the moment. some source say that we are testing 5 some say 8 and some say 10.



Rifles from 8 companies were trialed. In September 2016, CZ, FN and Beretta were shortlisted.


----------



## ali_raza

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Rifles from 8 companies were trialed. In September 2016, CZ, FN and Beretta were shortlisted.


any news sir?


----------



## Tiger Awan

ali_raza said:


> any news sir?



Yes, SCAR performed the best in trails

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## ali_raza

Tiger Awan said:


> Yes, SCAR performed the best in trails


m not scar fan.just anything come but i love guns


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## Zarvan

ali_raza said:


> m not scar fan.just anything come but i love guns


No news yet. Every one is waiting


----------



## ali_raza

Zarvan said:


> No news yet. Every one is waiting


waiting for what


----------



## Zarvan

ali_raza said:


> m not scar fan.just anything come but i love guns


No news yet. Every one is waiting



ali_raza said:


> waiting for what


To hear which rifle Pakistan will choose and produce at POF.


----------



## ali_raza

Zarvan said:


> No news yet. Every one is waiting
> 
> 
> To hear which rifle Pakistan will choose and produce at POF.


there is an interview of dg POF in idex u have any information about that.


----------



## Zarvan

ali_raza said:


> there is an interview of dg POF in idex u have any information about that.


https://web.facebook.com/POFOfficial/
You can find that interview here


----------



## ali_raza

Zarvan said:


> https://web.facebook.com/POFOfficial/
> You can find that interview here


no mention of gun trial


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## Zarvan

He will not mention anything until Army announces who wins and which weapon will be produced


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## HANI

any news when will the deal finalize with selected one


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## Zarvan

*FN Herstal's new FN SmartCore for SCAR assault rifle introduced at IDEX 2017*
Belgium-based *FN Herstal*, one of the world’s leading firearms manufacturers, has launched its newly-developed, self-powered FN SmartCore® shot counter for the FN SCAR® family of rifles based on breakthrough technology. For the first time in history, electronics is integrated into a product and generates its own power.





*FN Herstal's new SmartCore shot counter for the SCAR assault rifles family unveiled at IDEX 2017 (Credit: FN Herstal)

Read more at link given below 

http://www.armyrecognition.com/idex..._rifle_introduced_at_idex_2017_219021710.html
*


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## Zarvan

Belgium-based FN Herstal, one of the world’s leading firearms manufacturers, exhibit its FN® Expert marksmanship training system at IDEX trade show, Abu Dhabi. For the first time, FN's Expert training system is introduced outside of United States. Read more at 
http://www.armyrecognition.com/idex_2017_official_online_show_daily_news/index.php


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## TaimiKhan

It seems a MoU has been signed with Baretta by POF at IDEX 2017.

MoU for what, that isn't yet cleared, but i think it may be for the new assault rifle or something else.


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## Zarvan

@Path-Finder Where are you man ?


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> @Path-Finder Where are you man ?


I am here Hazrat. Beratta according TaimiKhan? Well lets see the announcement being made, what a journey we had sadly coming to a end.

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## The Fist

POF signs LoU with Italian Defence company Beretta

ABU DHABI: A Letter of Understanding (LoU) has been signed between Pakistan Ordnance Factories (POF) and Italian defence company "Beretta" on the second day of the IDEX 2017 at the POF Stall.

Chairman Pakistan Ordnance Factories Board Lt General Omar Mehmood Hayat and Italian Director sales Beretta Antonio Biondo signed the LoU for the sales of Italian pistols, shotguns and apparel in Pakistan.

Speaking to Geo News on the occasion, Lt General Hayat informed that the POF and Beretta will cooperate with each other on future business opportunities relating to Beretta products in Pakistan.

"Joint Marketing and cooperation will be made in order to enhance the export marketing." he further stated.

Italian Director Sales Beretta Antonio Biondo said that the joint cooperation between Pakistan and Italy in defence sector would go a long way in business relations and bring lucrative business opportunities for both companies.

http://https://www.geo.tv/latest/131779-PO...m_medium=fb-messenger&utm_campaign=story-slug

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## Path-Finder

Touseef_Afzal said:


> POF signs LoU with Italian Defence company Beretta
> 
> ABU DHABI: A Letter of Understanding (LoU) has been signed between Pakistan Ordnance Factories (POF) and Italian defence company "Beretta" on the second day of the IDEX 2017 at the POF Stall.
> 
> Chairman Pakistan Ordnance Factories Board Lt General Omar Mehmood Hayat and Italian Director sales Beretta Antonio Biondo signed the LoU for the sales of Italian pistols, shotguns and apparel in Pakistan.
> 
> Speaking to Geo News on the occasion, Lt General Hayat informed that the POF and Beretta will cooperate with each other on future business opportunities relating to Beretta products in Pakistan.
> 
> "Joint Marketing and cooperation will be made in order to enhance the export marketing." he further stated.
> 
> Italian Director Sales Beretta Antonio Biondo said that the joint cooperation between Pakistan and Italy in defence sector would go a long way in business relations and bring lucrative business opportunities for both companies.
> 
> https://www.geo.tv/latest/131779-PO...m_medium=fb-messenger&utm_campaign=story-slug



*Chairman Pakistan Ordnance Factories Board Lt General Omar Mehmood Hayat and Italian Director sales Beretta Antonio Biondo signed the LoU for the sales of Italian pistols, shotguns and apparel in Pakistan.*

Does not mention selection of rifle so the process is not finished, false alarm Hazrat @Zarvan


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

It's an LoU for having POF re-sell Beretta pistols, shotguns and apparel in Pakistan. Still interesting, I wonder if there's a text for the LoU, would like to know if gradual ToT of pistols and shotguns is included.


----------



## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> *Chairman Pakistan Ordnance Factories Board Lt General Omar Mehmood Hayat and Italian Director sales Beretta Antonio Biondo signed the LoU for the sales of Italian pistols, shotguns and apparel in Pakistan.*
> 
> Does not mention selection of rifle so the process is not finished, false alarm Hazrat @Zarvan


Which pistol I hope the pistol includes this one 




And yes short guns are needed for Police and Armed Forces specially hitting hard objects



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It's an LoU for having POF re-sell Beretta pistols, shotguns and apparel in Pakistan. Still interesting, I wonder if there's a text for the LoU, would like to know if gradual ToT of pistols and shotguns is included.


I hope so specially of the pistol I have mentioned above


----------



## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Which pistol I hope the pistol includes this one
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And yes short guns are needed for Police and Armed Forces specially hitting hard objects
> 
> 
> I hope so specially of the pistol I have mentioned above


ok that is interesting I will have to look the pistol up. i hope shotgun is Benelli which we can adopt into military service as well.


----------



## TaimiKhan

Licenses are not getting issued, import of weapons has stopped since last 3 years due to which the Chinese CF-98 which used to cost around 30-35K has gone to 50K. 

So the move of POF i don't understand as Baretta weapons are very expensive. 

Anyhow, this move at the time when its assault weapon has reached the top 2 finalists gives me a hint that we may be seeing Baretta winning as the final weapon.

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## Zarvan

TaimiKhan said:


> Licenses are not getting issued, import of weapons has stopped since last 3 years due to which the Chinese CF-98 which used to cost around 30-35K has gone to 50K.
> 
> So the move of POF i don't understand as Baretta weapons are very expensive.
> 
> Anyhow, this move at the time when its assault weapon has reached the top 2 finalists gives me a hint that we may be seeing Baretta winning as the final weapon.


Hand Guns could be coming for Armed Forces and Police and also Short Guns

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## TaimiKhan

Zarvan said:


> Hand Guns could be coming for Armed Forces and Police and also Short Guns



Bhai, they are already producing the Turkish guns and they are in service with the army.

And you wanna give Baretta guns and shotguns to police ?? 

Last time they got Glocks and they went to Darra Adam Khel, got the copies made. Police guys kept the copies with them as service pistols and sold the original ones in the market and made lot of money. 

Anyway, time will tell.

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## PAR 5

New Assault Rifle induction program of the Pakistan Army has been shelved for the time being.


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## Zarvan

PAR 5 said:


> New Assault Rifle induction program of the Pakistan Army has been shelved for the time being.


I didn't wanted to intervene but no not even close to being shelved


----------



## PAR 5

Zarvan said:


> I didn't wanted to intervene but no not even close to being shelved


I wish I could share your optimism but my information from POF and Weapons & Equipment Directorate at GHQ say otherwise

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## Zarvan

PAR 5 said:


> I wish I could share your optimism but my information from POF and Weapons & Equipment Directorate at GHQ say otherwise


My source suggest other wise so let see soon something will happen


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## rbo88asia

atatwolf said:


> Review of the new MPT



woww.. very strong rifle...


----------



## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> @Horus How MPT-76 performed in tests ?


Fine in cold weather tests, had some problems in deserts and plains of Punjab with hot weather issues (the main use will be in this exact area) so overall, NOT SO GOOD!!



TaimiKhan said:


> Licenses are not getting issued, import of weapons has stopped since last 3 years due to which the Chinese CF-98 which used to cost around 30-35K has gone to 50K.
> 
> So the move of POF i don't understand as Baretta weapons are very expensive.
> 
> Anyhow, this move at the time when its assault weapon has reached the top 2 finalists gives me a hint that we may be seeing Baretta winning as the final weapon.


@TaimiKhan how would you rate CF98 for personal use? Is this the better option compared to Sarsilmaz ST9 by POF (Turkish origin made by POF). Any other suggestion?


----------



## Path-Finder

TaimiKhan said:


> Bhai, they are already producing the Turkish guns and they are in service with the army.
> 
> And you wanna give Baretta guns and shotguns to police ??
> 
> Last time they got Glocks and they went to Darra Adam Khel, got the copies made. Police guys kept the copies with them as service pistols and sold the original ones in the market and made lot of money.
> 
> Anyway, time will tell.


copies of glock?  the polymer moulding is available to them?

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## ali_raza

PAR 5 said:


> I wish I could share your optimism but my information from POF and Weapons & Equipment Directorate at GHQ say otherwise


can u share more dude


----------



## Zarvan

ali_raza said:


> can u share more dude


Don't worry nothing is shelved

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## Bratva

credits to @Ulla

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## Path-Finder

Bratva said:


> credits to @Ulla


These FN will be replaced by SCAR soon. are they SSW?

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## ali_raza

Bratva said:


> credits to @Ulla


one is fnf2000 what is 3rd guys holding ؟

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## Aylith

ali_raza said:


> one is fnf2000 what is 3rd guys holding ؟



Looks to be two FN F2000 (first two men) and an FN 249 Para (third man). The stock is a give-away on the LMG.





You'll also see them with a hard, non-collapsible/retractable stock, depending on the variant.





Several (I count three) FN F2000s can be seen in the background as well.

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## ali_raza

Aylith said:


> Looks to be two FN F2000 (first two men) and an FN 249 Para (third man). The stock is a give-away on the LMG.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You'll also see them with a hard, non-collapsible/retractable stock, depending on the variant.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Several (I count three) FN F2000s can be seen in the background as well.


yes u r right thanks

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## TaimiKhan

Path-Finder said:


> copies of glock?  the polymer moulding is available to them?



Yups. They are making lot of copies of renowned weapons.

http://tribune.com.pk/story/458310/the-legendary-gunsmiths-of-darra-adam-khel/

http://www.pakguns.com/showthread.p...tries-Sig-Tac-Ops-amp-Glock17-3rd-gen-Mubarak

If you search you will find many. 

Even the local company Daud Sons Armor has its own made pistol with polymer base.

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## Arsalan

Path-Finder said:


> copies of glock?  the polymer moulding is available to them?


NEVER underestimate the power of a DARRA man!! 


You will be surprised by some of the stuff they were making there. However it is really really slow now with the operations and the situation in that area.

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## Super Falcon

Zarvan which gun has been chooses any info how much more time it needs


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## ali_raza

Super Falcon said:


> Zarvan which gun has been chooses any info how much more time it needs


some member say trials stopped

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## Zarvan

Super Falcon said:


> Zarvan which gun has been chooses any info how much more time it needs


I can only say talks are in final stage and deal is much bigger than one Assault Rifle.


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## Skyliner

@Zarvan what other things are we talking here other than rifle.


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## razgriz19

Zarvan said:


> My source suggest other wise so let see soon something will happen


Bhai jan apki source also suggested 4 frigates buy from Turkey...


----------



## Zarvan

razgriz19 said:


> Bhai jan apki source also suggested 4 frigates buy from Turkey...


That was not my source but yes if not right now we are going to buy 4 Frigates talks are taking place. Soon announcement will be made I started the thread based on tweets of Turkish Journalists and many of them were saying this.



razgriz19 said:


> Bhai jan apki source also suggested 4 frigates buy from Turkey...


As for rifle trials final talks have begun and Pakistan is not looking for one Assault Rifle only. We were testing lot of weapons many of them are going to come.

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## Super Falcon

Zarvan said:


> I can only say talks are in final stage and deal is much bigger than one Assault Rifle.


Dear any clue which rifle has won any chance for HK 417


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## Zarvan

Super Falcon said:


> Dear any clue which rifle has won any chance for HK 417


They were not even tested


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## Super Falcon

Zarvan said:


> They were not even tested


Zaarvan I think it was best gun why not been tested

Zaarvan why not we buy multicaliber rifle


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## Zarvan

Super Falcon said:


> Zaarvan I think it was best gun why not been tested
> 
> Zaarvan why not we buy multicaliber rifle


Germany creates lot of problems for companies who specially try to sell weapons to Muslim Countries. They come up with human right crap and other stuff.


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## Super Falcon

Zarvan said:


> Germany creates lot of problems for companies who specially try to sell weapons to Muslim Countries. They come up with human right crap and other stuff.


Yes than which gun is front RUNNER MPT 7 or any other

Any news


----------



## Zarvan

Super Falcon said:


> Yes than which gun is front RUNNER MPT 7 or any other
> 
> Any news


What is MPT 7 ?


----------



## ali_raza

Zarvan said:


> What is MPT 7 ?


he mean mpt 76 that turkish gun i think


----------



## Zarvan

Super Falcon said:


> Yes than which gun is front RUNNER MPT 7 or any other
> 
> Any news


MPT 76 is not close to be front runner the Gun I am talking about from page one that is front runner some people think that BREN is but not it's not.


----------



## ali_raza

Zarvan said:


> MPT 76 is not close to be front runner the Gun I am talking about from page one that is front runner some people think that BREN is but not it's not.


anything new dear?


----------



## Thunder.Storm

What the hell is happening. I think Pak army confused with selecting battle rifle. If trailed is finished then why not announcing the winner i think the business deal is not that hard to take this much time @Zarvan


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## Zarvan

Thunder.Storm said:


> What the hell is happening. I think Pak army confused with selecting battle rifle. If trailed is finished then why not announcing the winner i think the business deal is not that hard to take this much time @Zarvan


They are not confused they have there own ways to reach the deal. I can only tell you final talks have begun and we can hear something soon.

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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> They are not confused they have there own ways to reach the deal. I can only tell you final talks have begun and we can hear something soon.


Or you can say that things are in process but you are not sure about the timing, JUST LIKE MOST OF THE OTHER REGULAR MEMBERS HERE!! Because saying "we can hear something soon" is not reflecting very well on you. Have been hearing this from you for ages after all about some 7 dozen different systems  

Haat hola raka kro myray bahi!!

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## ali_raza

Arsalan said:


> Or you can say that things are in process but you are not sure about the timing, JUST LIKE MOST OF THE OTHER REGULAR MEMBERS HERE!! Because saying "we can hear something soon" is not reflecting very well on you. Have been hearing this from you for ages after all about some 7 dozen different systems
> 
> Haat hola raka kro myray bahi!!


can u shed some light on any new developments cos i heard from someone that rifle procurement is shelved


----------



## Arsalan

ali_raza said:


> can u shed some light on any new developments cos i heard from someone that rifle procurement is shelved


NOT SHELVED!

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## ali_raza

Arsalan said:


> NOT SHELVED!


why no news and radio silence on rhis matter?


----------



## PAR 5

ali_raza said:


> why no news and radio silence on rhis matter?



No MONEY in Army kitty! New GHQ leadership not too keen!

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## ali_raza

PAR 5 said:


> No MONEY in Army kitty! New GHQ leadership not too keen!


r u sure about it?
everyone saying otherwise


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

ali_raza said:


> why no news and radio silence on rhis matter?


It's important to stay grounded to official statements. Yes, these might be out-of-date with the facts, but the statements tend to always catch up with the facts anyways. 

Last we heard was at IDEAS in November, during which FN was confident about winning the G-3 replacement tender, and when POF signed a letter-of-understanding to negotiate with CZ. 

Where things stand now, we don't know. So if it has been shelved, then we'll learn about it officially one way or another soon enough. If it hasn't been shelved, then it'll progress. No point in stressing about these things out of our hands.

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## PAR 5

ali_raza said:


> r u sure about it?
> everyone saying otherwise



Quite Sure! Chinese Type 56 and the POF modified G3 will remain in use for quite sometime now

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## Path-Finder

PAR 5 said:


> Quite Sure! Chinese Type 56 and the POF modified G3 will remain in use for quite sometime now


Hazrat @Zarvan


----------



## Thunder.Storm

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat @Zarvan


he is in Dubai enjoying


----------



## Zarvan

PAR 5 said:


> Quite Sure! Chinese Type 56 and the POF modified G3 will remain in use for quite sometime now


They are going but yes even if production of new Rifle starts within year of selection it will take a decade to replace all G3 and Type 56



Thunder.Storm said:


> he is in Dubai enjoying


Yup I am in Dubai

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## Path-Finder

Thunder.Storm said:


> he is in Dubai enjoying


hain Dubai is being blessed by Hazrat's Visit!

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## ali_raza

PAR 5 said:


> Quite Sure! Chinese Type 56 and the POF modified G3 will remain in use for quite sometime now


not even new ak103?


----------



## Arsalan

@Zarvan bahi ap na wahan dubai mein bhe arbion ko sahi tarha samjha dea ha na kay FN SCAR is the best?  
Achi tarha rata lagwa dyna un ko bro!

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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> @Zarvan bahi ap na wahan dubai mein bhe arbion ko sahi tarha samjha dea ha na kay FN SCAR is the best?
> Achi tarha rata lagwa dyna un ko bro!


Dubai has made me realized even if I get billions of dollars and nationality of most of the world I still will love to live in Pakistan

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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> Dubai has made me realized even if I get billions of dollars and nationality of most of the world I still will love to live in Pakistan


Sweet!!
In my humble opinion, the UAE and the Arab countries are a bit to artificial for us Pakistani people and we do want to run back, i do!
However if you visit Europe, countries like Germany, France England, you will see plenty of things that you will feel are wrong with us and for a guy like me, i still want to run back but do want those to get those things right. They are actually civilized nations and there are plenty of great thing we SHOULD learn from them. It is unfortunate that we opt to go for the bad ones only.

Edit:
Oo,, myri baat ka jawab ni dea ap na janab


----------



## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> Sweet!!
> In my humble opinion, the UAE and the Arab countries are a bit to artificial for us Pakistani people and we do want to run back, i do!
> However if you visit Europe, countries like Germany, France England, you will see plenty of things that you will feel are wrong with us and for a guy like me, i still want to run back but do want those to get those things right. They are actually civilized nations and there are plenty of great thing we SHOULD learn from them. It is unfortunate that we opt to go for the bad ones only.
> 
> Edit:
> Oo,, myri baat ka jawab ni dea ap na janab


I hardly talk to people only like to eat from hotels


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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> I hardly talk to people only like to eat from hotels


On what business you are there then?
I mean, if you can share the reason of your travel if it is not a problem.


----------



## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> On what business you are there then?
> I mean, if you can share the reason of your travel if it is not a problem.


I basically came with my mom to drop her to brothers place. I am only noticing big expensive cars of Arabs and Mosques


----------



## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> I basically came with my mom to drop her to brothers place. I am only noticing big expensive cars of Arabs and Mosques


Oh good!!
Chlo enjoy the trip dear. I hope aunty is well now and everything is good. 

I hope by the time you get back to Pakistan
.
.
.
.
.
Things regarding the gun replacement will be at same point they are now.


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Zarvan said:


> I basically came with my mom to drop her to brothers place. I am only noticing big expensive cars of Arabs and Mosques


Were you calculating the expense of cars in SCARs? "Look at that 3-series ... 40 SCARs. Look at that Ferrari ... 300 SCARs. Oh look, uncle jee's 1982 Corolla that shouldn't be around, like the G-3 ... it's worth 2 G-3s."

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## Path-Finder

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Were you calculating the expense of cars in SCARs? "Look at that 3-series ... 40 SCARs. Look at that Ferrari ... 300 SCARs. Oh look, uncle jee's 1982 Corolla that shouldn't be around, like the G-3 ... it's worth 2 G-3s."


 you didn't calculate Type 56


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Path-Finder said:


> you didn't calculate Type 56


That stuff is used for calculating rickshaws, not applicable in Dubai.


----------



## Malik Alpha

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Were you calculating the expense of cars in SCARs? "Look at that 3-series ... 40 SCARs. Look at that Ferrari ... 300 SCARs. Oh look, uncle jee's 1982 Corolla that shouldn't be around, like the G-3 ... it's worth 2 G-3s."


----------



## Path-Finder

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> That stuff is used for calculating rickshaws, not applicable in Dubai.


----------



## LegitimateIdiot

Zarvan said:


> They are going but yes even if production of new Rifle starts within year of selection it will take a decade to replace all G3 and Type 56
> 
> 
> Yup I am in Dubai


imran khan ftw


----------



## Super Falcon

All of u discuss on the point rather than UAE visits etc


----------



## ali_raza

Zarvan said:


> I basically came with my mom to drop her to brothers place. I am only noticing big expensive cars of Arabs and Mosques


visit oman sir


----------



## asif farooqi

The best of the best !!!! Pakistan Army Zindabad !!!


----------



## Super Falcon

Stop touring programe let's speak on matter it is not traveling guide


----------



## Vergennes



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## Zarvan

Vergennes said:


> View attachment 383627


The money is not the issue we take time in signing the deal. The day we started test every situation was kept in mind only than tests were conducted


----------



## ghazi52



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## Zarvan

ghazi52 said:


>


When Pakistan goes for new Assault Rifle hopefully SCAR we also need to get latest optics for our Assault Rifle and as we will produce more than a million Assault Rifles it's better either we get Turkish companies like Aselsan and 3E EOS here in Pakistan I mean there production plants for optics and night vision or get all of there products with TOT.


----------



## PAR 5

Vergennes said:


> View attachment 383627



Yup! Pretty much the case right now with this procurement

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## Naveed66

Pof inked a deal with CZ to start negotiations. And another with beretta for sales of pistols and handguns. This is what i understand clearly.


----------



## Thorough Pro

Yep, money is not the issue, we just planted a billion "money plants" they grow 100 dollar bills instead of leaves



Zarvan said:


> The money is not the issue we take time in signing the deal. The day we started test every situation was kept in mind only than tests were conducted

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## Zarvan

Thorough Pro said:


> Yep, money is not the issue, we just planted a billion "money plants" they grow 100 dollar bills instead of leaves


Army Generals didn't wake up one day and said " Hey let's have Rifle trials " and next we were having Rifle Trials I am amazed at people who think they know better than what Army is doing and Generals have wasted years of training. The decision is 50 years investment so we are taking things slow I know few things but I am not sharing but I can say for sure things are moving forward and soon we would get the news. Nothing is shelved or shut down and yes we have the money.
@PAR 5 @Vergennes

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## Army research

Zarvan said:


> Army Generals didn't woke up one day and said " Hey let's have Rifle trials " and next we were having Rifle Trials I am amazed at people who think they know better than what Army is doing and Generals have wasted years of training. The decision is 50 years investment so we are taking things slow I know few things but I am not sharing but I can say for sure things are moving forward and soon we would get the news. Nothing is shelved or shut down and yes we have the money.
> @PAR 5 @Vergennes


Wake*


----------



## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Army Generals didn't wake up one day and said " Hey let's have Rifle trials " and next we were having Rifle Trials I am amazed at people who think they know better than what Army is doing and Generals have wasted years of training. The decision is 50 years investment so we are taking things slow I know few things but I am not sharing but I can say for sure things are moving forward and soon we would get the news. Nothing is shelved or shut down and yes we have the money.
> @PAR 5 @Vergennes


Hazrat @Zarvan will the news come before we land in our graves? yo have said that for past year now remember that!

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat @Zarvan will the news come before we land in our graves? yo have said that for past year now remember that!


It's a 50 year investment and turns out the trial were not only for Assault Rifles. We were testing Machine Guns and also Hand Guns and we make also go for Sniper Rifles. In other words it's entire package and 50 year investment. You will change the rifle at least after 50 years. So things will take time but not much time now. Some things happened which I can't reveal but things are taking place.


----------



## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> It's a 50 year investment and turns out the trial were not only for Assault Rifles. We were testing Machine Guns and also Hand Guns and we make also go for Sniper Rifles. In other words it's entire package and 50 year investment. You will change the rifle at least after 50 years. So things will take time but not much time now. Some things happened which I can't reveal but things are taking place.


50 50 50 Hazrat @Zarvan you are on 50/50 and giving us smoke up the back side you always have info!

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## ali_raza

i don't even get excited anymore on rifle issue which i use to do before


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Naveed66 said:


> Pof inked a deal with CZ to start negotiations. And another with beretta for sales of pistols and handguns. This is what i understand clearly.


It's worth noting that POF might be moving at a faster cadence than the Army. The main drive might be securing exports and building-up competitiveness on the market, and a new rifle design would be necessary. 

The cost of transitioning POF to manufacturing a new rifle design is not as much as actually issuing a new rifle in the Army. Yes, some domestic scale will be necessary, but that can be had by having the CPEC Security Division, LCBs, and LEAs to switch to the new gun.

Consider: CZ's revenue last year was U.S. $79 million (source). POF's sale to Saudi Arabia was worth around that much, so I think POF's revenue and work output (for export and local supply) is higher.

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> 50 50 50 Hazrat @Zarvan you are on 50/50 and giving us smoke up the back side you always have info!


I am fully sure and yes I have information just relax things are moving forward



ali_raza said:


> i don't even get excited anymore on rifle issue which i use to do before


You will get excited soon

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## ali_raza

Zarvan said:


> I am fully sure and yes I have information just relax things are moving forward
> 
> 
> You will get excited soon


i hope u r right


----------



## PAR 5

Zarvan said:


> Army Generals didn't wake up one day and said " Hey let's have Rifle trials " and next we were having Rifle Trials I am amazed at people who think they know better than what Army is doing and Generals have wasted years of training. The decision is 50 years investment so we are taking things slow I know few things but I am not sharing but I can say for sure things are moving forward and soon we would get the news. Nothing is shelved or shut down and yes we have the money.
> @PAR 5 @Vergennes



I wish I could believe you BUT the information I have including the lists of ARMY PROCUREMENT PLAN 2017-18, SADA and now even CSF 2016-17 funds released by the US Government, none includes any procurement of assault rifle. So your continuing optimism aside, don't see this happening in this FY.


----------



## Zarvan

PAR 5 said:


> I wish I could believe you BUT the information I have including the lists of ARMY PROCUREMENT PLAN 2017-18, SADA and now even CSF 2016-17 funds released by the US Government, none includes any procurement of assault rifle. So your continuing optimism aside, don't see this happening in this FY.


It's happening and Army doesn't declare most things which it procures. And in recent defense exhibition not in Pakistan but some where else in the world final talks have begun. It's not optimism I have solid information that is what I am telling you

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## PAR 5

Zarvan said:


> It's happening and Army doesn't declare most things which it procures. And in recent defense exhibition not in Pakistan but some where else in the world final talks have begun. It's not optimism I have solid information that is what I am telling you



Assault Rifle is NOT a classified program that it cannot be declared. All unclassified procurement projects ARE DECLARED in yearly procurement lists that mention exact quantities and foreign exchange & Rupees funding. You are beginning to sound like a novice on these matters! My doubts on your claims and this program stands.

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## Zarvan

PAR 5 said:


> Assault Rifle is NOT a classified program that it cannot be declared. All unclassified procurement projects ARE DECLARED in yearly procurement lists that mention exact quantities and foreign exchange & Rupees funding. You are beginning to sound like a novice on these matters! My doubts on your claims and this program stands.


You are free to doubt but things are moving forward and talks are taking place and soon we would go for the final deal


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## ZULUDARKTANGO

Zarvan said:


> You are free to doubt but things are moving forward and talks are taking place and soon we would go for the final deal


 YEAH I also have good news regarding this, but cant quote.


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## ali_raza

ZULUDARKTANGO said:


> YEAH I also have good news regarding this, but cant quote.


u can give some hints dear


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## Zarvan

ZULUDARKTANGO said:


> YEAH I also have good news regarding this, but cant quote.


Contact me on facebook we can talk there 

https://www.facebook.com/zbinsajid


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## Path-Finder

PAR 5 said:


> I wish I could believe you BUT the information I have including the lists of ARMY PROCUREMENT PLAN 2017-18, SADA and now even CSF 2016-17 funds released by the US Government, none includes any procurement of assault rifle. So your continuing optimism aside, don't see this happening in this FY.





Zarvan said:


> It's happening and Army doesn't declare most things which it procures. And in recent defense exhibition not in Pakistan but some where else in the world final talks have begun. It's not optimism I have solid information that is what I am telling you


It isn't happening it is happening. If it is happening then Hazrat @Zarvan give us a time frame! Saying that it is happening sounds like the deal for 4 frigates which was nothing but a trip by noora to Turkey and nothing more.



ZULUDARKTANGO said:


> YEAH I also have good news regarding this, but cant quote.


Share it with the forum and not just Hazrat @Zarvan


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## Path-Finder

Kat said:


> Tangential question; what shotgun does the Pakistan Army use?
> 
> Kat's family owns a Mossberg 590.


tactical shotgun is not employed


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> It isn't happening it is happening. If it is happening then Hazrat @Zarvan give us a time frame! Saying that it is happening sounds like the deal for 4 frigates which was nothing but a trip by noora to Turkey and nothing more.
> 
> 
> Share it with the forum and not just Hazrat @Zarvan


Dude it's 50 year investment. We are not going to buy one car from showroom. Everything has to be studied before final decision takes place but in recent massive defense exhibition in a country. Some things have happened which are going to lead to final deal.


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Dude it's 50 year investment. We are not going to buy one car from showroom. Everything has to be studied before final decision takes place but in recent massive defense exhibition in a country. Some things have happened which are going to lead to final deal.


you are repeating the car buying example from last year! If by June there is nothing then shoot your sources.


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> you are repeating the car buying example from last year! If by June there is nothing then shoot your sources.


Things are taking place you are not buying one thing for 5 years you are buying a new Gun which brings new mindset with it. I am telling you something big has happened in recent defence exhibition and things are moving forward. Army won't tell you everything but it's taking place.


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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> Contact me on facebook we can talk there
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/zbinsajid


@ZULUDARKTANGO do it on your own risk mate!!

What ever you say will be quoted here as coming from "authentic sources" and friends 


@Zarvan RELAX buddy!!!  
No harm is keeping it quite or low profile at some times!!

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## Zarvan




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## Zarvan

It seem Baluchistan Police has decided to buy weapons from Czech Republic


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> It seem Baluchistan Police has decided to buy weapons from Czech Republic


Is it rifle or pistol or both?


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Is it rifle or pistol or both?


It seem pretty much everything which Bren company offers there guys were firing weapons and displaying weapons and Scorpion and CZ 807 and 806 and HandGuns all were being displayed. Commander Southern Command was also present there



ali_raza said:


> why soo much secrecy on gun


Because we have a neighbor called India and selection of SCAR will send shock waves there

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## parkour guy

Zarvan said:


> It seem pretty much everything which Bren company offers there guys were firing weapons and displaying weapons and Scorpion and CZ 807 and 806 and HandGuns all were being displayed. Commander Southern Command was also present there
> 
> 
> Because we have a neighbor called India and selection of SCAR will send shock waves there


They already have MCIWS , That's why we are yearning behind multicaliber.


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## parkour guy

Zarvan said:


> There Multi Caliber is not being accepted by there Army


Sounds good,we are not in hurry because of that,CZ traditional rivalry has to be maintained.


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## Thorough Pro

LOL, I just remembered his name, we used have one "Nishan" on the forum, @Zarvan has transitioned smoothly in to his role



Path-Finder said:


> 50 50 50 Hazrat @Zarvan you are on 50/50 and giving us smoke up the back side you always have info!



POF's total export revenue last year was $100MM, that includes small arms ammo and more importantly other stuff i.e. artillery and air dropped munitions to KSA due to their ongoing conflict with Yemen. That "revenue" (not profit) has nothing to do with gun sales or justifies investment in new plant for new AR.

Initial investment in the plant and machinery would be very significant, as no manufacturer just sells his drawings, they would sell you the whole plant (and make money on that too) to ensure that the quality of the product is comparable to that of manufactured by the OEM.

Besides most POF machinery is now more than 50 years old acquired from H&K in 70's. Those machines are manual, old, inefficient, hard and expensive to maintain. It makes total sense to invest in a brand new plant that lasts for another 40/50 years, is efficient, more productive and gives consistent output. Based on my experience total plant cost, spares, dies, installation, commissioning, trial run, training, fare/boarding/lodging cost of foreign engineers in addition to their normal charge of 400/500 dollars an hour would run into a minimum of 500+ million dollars.

The question is does the government has enough funds to allocate?

If the government has balls to raid the houses of just 10 big politicians, I bet my life it can recover more than 100 billion with a "B" stashed in their homes. Just yesterday people in Hyderabad crowned that mother fucker who had 2 billion cash stashed in his house. 




Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It's worth noting that POF might be moving at a faster cadence than the Army. The main drive might be securing exports and building-up competitiveness on the market, and a new rifle design would be necessary.
> 
> The cost of transitioning POF to manufacturing a new rifle design is not as much as actually issuing a new rifle in the Army. Yes, some domestic scale will be necessary, but that can be had by having the CPEC Security Division, LCBs, and LEAs to switch to the new gun.
> 
> Consider: CZ's revenue last year was U.S. $79 million (source). POF's sale to Saudi Arabia was worth around that much, so I think POF's revenue and work output (for export and local supply) is higher.



@Zarvan this forum is full of posts with your "Solid" information that have quietly evaporated in thin air




Zarvan said:


> It's happening and Army doesn't declare most things which it procures. And in recent defense exhibition not in Pakistan but some where else in the world final talks have begun. It's not optimism I have solid information that is what I am telling you

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## Gryphon

It appears negotiations with CZ are still going on.





*First introduction of the CZ P-10 C and CZ BREN 2 in the Middle East*

_This entry was posted on March 2, 2017._

*Between 19th and 23rd February 2017, Česká zbrojovka a.s. and its sister company 4M Systems s.r.o. took part in the 16th IDEX exhibition in the United Arab Emirates. It was the first time in the Middle East that the most important Czech manufacturer of small firearms introduced its new CZ P-10 C pistol with a linear striker and the CZ BREN 2, a new generation assault rifle.*

At the IDEX 2017 fair, Česká zbrojovka (CZ) and 4M Systems were part of the official Czech Republic exhibition in the number 12 pavilion, involving a total of 16 Czech companies.

In Abu Dhabi, CZ showcased a selection of its existing portfolio of service, defence and sport weapons. Two crucial new models attracted the most attention: the CZ P-10 C defence and service striker fired pistol with a polymer frame and the CZ BREN 2 multi-calibre modular assault rifle. It was the first time these weapons were introduced in this region and both enjoyed a lot of interest from the members of the armed forces as well as other visitors. Other products included in the exhibition were the CZ P-07 and CZ P-09 service and defence polymer pistols, the CZ SHADOW 2 sport special and the CZ SCORPION EVO 3 A1 submachine gun.

Together with products from CZ, there were also ballistic vests from our sister company, 4M Systems. Namely, it was the CZ 4M SPIRIT ballistic t-shirt, the CZ 4M VIP vest and the CZ RAPTOR ballistic vest.

Among some very important people that visited the CZ and 4M Systems stand were the Slovakian Defence Minister Peter Gajdoš and the Czech Deputy Defence Minister Tomáš Kuchta. In addition, an important meeting with the Pakistani Minister of the Defence Industry was held at the fair. With regard to the increased interest in cooperation of suppliers in the United Arab Emirates with CZ, we can conclude that the defence and security organizations in the Middle East are becoming increasingly aware of the quality and significance of the CZ brand.

IDEX is one of the most important global fairs focused on defence and security technology. It is held every two years in Abu Dhabi, the capital of the United Arab Emirates. This year, the National Exhibition Centre (ADNEC) saw 1,235 exhibitors from 57 countries and more than 100,000 visitors from around the world attended. IDEX is the only international trade fair of this type that takes place in the Middle East and North Africa.






_The CZ and the 4M Systems stand at the IDEX 2017_










_A visit to our stand from the Slovakian Defence Minister Peter Gajdoš (left)_ 





_It was the very first time the company showcased the CZ P-10 C, its new pistol with a linear striker in the Middle East

Category: Tiskové zprávy, Novinky, DateMarch 2, 2017_

First introduction of the CZ P-10 C and CZ BREN 2 in the Middle East

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## Tiger Awan

razgriz19 said:


> Mr. Zarvan doesn't understand that just because someone works in the military, doesn't mean they know everything that goes on there. Everything is based on "need to know" basis. He may have a friend or two in the army but if they don't work acquisition, they can't tell you shit other than just blowing hot air.
> 
> For example, I will be doing a "jump" in unit 1 vault. Will be 5 inches from the reactor face and will be getting good'ol gamma dose. That being said i don't know shit about those reactors. Yes nuclear reactor.
> 
> Mr. Zarvan doesn't understand that



agree completely. and the ppl who work in acquisition aren't supposed to tell such things so any news we get is a leak and is automatically not reliable


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## Arsalan

Thorough Pro said:


> LOL, I just remembered his name, we used have one "Nishan" on the forum, @Zarvan has transitioned smoothly in to his role



Nishan? the guy who would sugegest that Army should select ARX, FN SCAR and CZ BERN and also buy HK416, each soldier should be carrying four guns at all times so he can fire whichever guns he wants to!! Who wala Nishan? 



> POF's total export revenue last year was $100MM, that includes small arms ammo and more importantly other stuff i.e. artillery and air dropped munitions to KSA due to their ongoing conflict with Yemen. That "revenue" (not profit) has nothing to do with gun sales or justifies investment in new plant for new AR.
> 
> 
> Initial investment in the plant and machinery would be very significant, as no manufacturer just sells his drawings, they would sell you the whole plant (and make money on that too) to ensure that the quality of the product is comparable to that of manufactured by the OEM.
> 
> 
> Besides most POF machinery is now more than 50 years old acquired from H&K in 70's. Those machines are manual, old, inefficient, hard and expensive to maintain. It makes total sense to invest in a brand new plant that lasts for another 40/50 years, is efficient, more productive and gives consistent output. Based on my experience total plant cost, spares, dies, installation, commissioning, trial run, training, fare/boarding/lodging cost of foreign engineers in addition to their normal charge of 400/500 dollars an hour would run into a minimum of 500+ million dollars.
> 
> 
> The question is does the government has enough funds to allocate?


POF manufacturing setup is being upgraded as part of a deal signed with Italy already. It includes modernization of machinery and production setup!

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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> *Vast majority of them have proven right *and in a recent defence exhibition in a country things have entered final stage I mean talks for new rifle and yes we have funds funds are not the issue turns out we are also looking for Machine Gun and HandGuns and even Sniper may come


FOR EXAMPLE? 
Some of them, not VAST MAJORITY but only some of them might have turned out to be true but that is bound to hppane sometimes when one is associating Pakistan with every second military hardware development out there, at a dozen predictions a day, a couple of them might turn out to be true in a year!! It is simple rule of probability. 

Still, i will love to see if you can remind me of a few (not vast majority  ) of those which turned out to be true?

The Russian Su35 deal? that you promised and confirmed and used words like "i am sure that Su35 is coming and it will be announced in a few days" "there is no doubt" "Su35 is confirmed for PAF" and many other STRONG WORDS and tall claims about? No that it is not happening and have been CONFIRMED AS NOT HAPPENING, you simply choose to say that "those reports are not true, my dost knows it all"!! 

Talks about the gun being announced at IDEAS 2016? The word used were "i am sure that IDEAS 2016 will announce the winner"  REMEMBER THOSE POSTS?

The Russian SAM or the Atlay tank or the T129 or the Turkish AAW frigates? WHAT VAST MAJORITY HAVE ACTUALLY TURNED OUT TO BE TRUE??


STOP MISLEADING THE MEMBERS!! This is not even right as per Islamic rules if that is something you care about. Tafteesh aur tasdeeq ka bina you cannot MAKE any such claims. It is same as telling a lie!!



Zarvan said:


> If we can get export for three rifle series which pass our tests yes we should produce them. We by only exporting 50 year old G3 and other designs are earning 100 of millions of dollars just imagine what we can get if we have this much to offer. I am not just looking at internal market and law enforcement but also external specially Africa and Middle East.


 between  or

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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> For example Pakistan working on Submarine plants everybody denied than @Oscar confirmed it after few months and lot more I have been made fun lot of times and I have been proven right several times.
> 
> 
> I am no talking about IDEAS 2016 I am talking about some other defense exhibition which happened in other country recently there talks have entered final stage.


I have lived my entire life in a house less then 1 Km from the facility that was working on the nuclear submarine plant (that was not nuclear propulsion project, just a miniature reactor for this very end use).* It was shelved, put into cold storage and remained there until at at least 2014/15.* I was one of the first few members to have mentioned that project and then its "on hold status". The funny thing is, the guy you are quoting, @Oscar he himself never act stubborn and claims that what he says is the absolute truth but you do while quoting him as a reference.  



> I have been proven right on several things and I am right on this one you can laugh as much as you want many laughed on me and than I was laughing at them so nothing new for me I am used to it


 So again, i will love to hear about those "number of things" once more. I assure you that all other members here will like the same. I am not laughing at you but i cannot allow you to go on and mislead the members based on what you dream at night or how you want things to be!!! Claiming that whatever you say is the absolute truth and then associating army with some dozen or so procurement per day (surely a couple of them will turn out to be true every few years or so) 

As for the second part of your post, You are no talking about IDEAS 2016 NOW because it have come and gone with absolutely 5hit happening regarding those FN SCARS on that exhibitions!! Something that you claimed as "i can assure you it is going to happen on IDEAS 2016". There are dozens of posts stating the same sir, look around!! Now that the fair have come and gone surely you wont say that FN SCAR was procured at the fair and it is just our military which are not confirming it (or will you?) Surely you are now talking about "OTHER FAIRS" 

Things are progressing, YES, many here can confirm that. The only difference is that those many have never claimed that the guns will be finalized in two months and absolutely none of them have done it some 8 to 10 times

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## The Eagle

@Zarvan bro, if Pakistan Military rejects a rifle, what on right mind can even think that it will still be brought for Police and if we go by the same definition, SSU in Karachi has SCAR in armory so does it mean we inducted the same, No but bought/direct purchase for Police and has nothing to do with Military trials.

Also, Media is not a source nor credible enough to believe like we know how they most of the times shows Missiles without any clue Ghori for Babur or what not. I must say, Media is totally clueless especially when it comes to defence related news and sometimes for rating, they go crazy and did many silly things in past. 

Further-more, if I am a civilian then why would a Sarkari Banda will tell me something which is not available in public domain nor is allowed to be told that too on a social website or through some unknown contacts. I will never ever disclose any news which is marked as secret or confidential. Kindly avoid believing words of the people with no credibility. What we all know is, totally tight lipped service till now w.r.t. winner of trials. However, discussing the content on the basis of personal observation is not wrong and everyone is at liberty to do so but we should keep in mind that, the same may not be pushed again & again as a fact that Officials are not telling yet.

Hope you understand.

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## Bratva

The Eagle said:


> @Zarvan bro, if Pakistan Military rejects a rifle, what on right mind can even think that it will still be brought for Police and if we go by the same definition, SSU in Karachi has SCAR in armory so does it mean we inducted the same, No but bought/direct purchase for Police and has nothing to do with Military trials.
> 
> Also, Media is not a source nor credible enough to believe like we know how they most of the times shows Missiles without any clue Ghori for Babur or what not. I must say, Media is totally clueless especially when it comes to defence related news and sometimes for rating, they go crazy and did many silly things in past.
> 
> Further-more, if I am a civilian then why would a Sarkari Banda will tell me something which is not available in public domain nor is allowed to be told that too on a social website or through some unknown contacts. I will never ever disclose any news which is marked as secret or confidential. Kindly avoid believing words of the people with no credibility. What we all know is, totally tight lipped service till now w.r.t. winner of trials. However, discussing the content on the basis of personal observation is not wrong and everyone is at liberty to do so but we should keep in mind that, the same may not be pushed again & again as a fact that Officials are not telling yet.
> 
> Hope you understand.




Can we somehow stop this circus in this informative and serious thread ?

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## Zarvan

The Eagle said:


> @Zarvan bro, if Pakistan Military rejects a rifle, what on right mind can even think that it will still be brought for Police and if we go by the same definition, SSU in Karachi has SCAR in armory so does it mean we inducted the same, No but bought/direct purchase for Police and has nothing to do with Military trials.
> 
> Also, Media is not a source nor credible enough to believe like we know how they most of the times shows Missiles without any clue Ghori for Babur or what not. I must say, Media is totally clueless especially when it comes to defence related news and sometimes for rating, they go crazy and did many silly things in past.
> 
> Further-more, if I am a civilian then why would a Sarkari Banda will tell me something which is not available in public domain nor is allowed to be told that too on a social website or through some unknown contacts. I will never ever disclose any news which is marked as secret or confidential. Kindly avoid believing words of the people with no credibility. What we all know is, totally tight lipped service till now w.r.t. winner of trials. However, discussing the content on the basis of personal observation is not wrong and everyone is at liberty to do so but we should keep in mind that, the same may not be pushed again & again as a fact that Officials are not telling yet.
> 
> Hope you understand.



What I understand is what I saw. By the way BREN passed the trials specially CZ 807 but yes SCAR was way ahead in performance but BREN also passed the tests in fact CZ 807 is leading candidate in Type 56 replacement program. Baluchistan Police is looking to get new weapons and report was about CZECH showing there weapons and commander southern command was also present on the occasion. There giant size guy was firing CZ 807 and Scorpion and our Police Guy was shown firing some handgun from CZ. What I don't know is whether Baluchistan Government also tested other Rifles or not. Sir many sarkari people tell many things you just should know How to get the info. I am not discussing personal observation I am discussing the info I have.


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## Gryphon

The Eagle said:


> @Zarvan bro, if Pakistan Military rejects a rifle, what on right mind can even think that it will still be brought for Police and if we go by the same definition, SSU in Karachi has SCAR in armory so does it mean we inducted the same, No but bought/direct purchase for Police and has nothing to do with Military trials.
> 
> Also, Media is not a source nor credible enough to believe like we know how they most of the times shows Missiles without any clue Ghori for Babur or what not. I must say, Media is totally clueless especially when it comes to defence related news and sometimes for rating, they go crazy and did many silly things in past.
> 
> Further-more, if I am a civilian then why would a Sarkari Banda will tell me something which is not available in public domain nor is allowed to be told that too on a social website or through some unknown contacts. I will never ever disclose any news which is marked as secret or confidential. Kindly avoid believing words of the people with no credibility. What we all know is, totally tight lipped service till now w.r.t. winner of trials. However, discussing the content on the basis of personal observation is not wrong and everyone is at liberty to do so but we should keep in mind that, the same may not be pushed again & again as a fact that Officials are not telling yet.
> 
> Hope you understand.



You are a mod. Take action against this user spamming the thread.

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## Tiger Awan

Zarvan said:


> What I understand is what I saw. By the way BREN passed the trials specially CZ 807 but yes SCAR was way ahead in performance



and we are back to 

SCAR PERFORMED THE BEST IN THE TRAILS 

can you plz tell us how exactly it performed better ?? like performing better in certain environments or having more accuracy or requiring less maintenance ? What exactly was better about SCAR ??

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## Path-Finder

The Eagle said:


> @Zarvan bro, if Pakistan Military rejects a rifle, what on right mind can even think that it will still be brought for Police and if we go by the same definition, SSU in Karachi has SCAR in armory so does it mean we inducted the same, No but bought/direct purchase for Police and has nothing to do with Military trials.
> 
> Also, Media is not a source nor credible enough to believe like we know how they most of the times shows Missiles without any clue Ghori for Babur or what not. I must say, Media is totally clueless especially when it comes to defence related news and sometimes for rating, they go crazy and did many silly things in past.
> 
> Further-more, if I am a civilian then why would a Sarkari Banda will tell me something which is not available in public domain nor is allowed to be told that too on a social website or through some unknown contacts. I will never ever disclose any news which is marked as secret or confidential. Kindly avoid believing words of the people with no credibility. What we all know is, totally tight lipped service till now w.r.t. winner of trials. However, discussing the content on the basis of personal observation is not wrong and everyone is at liberty to do so but we should keep in mind that, the same may not be pushed again & again as a fact that Officials are not telling yet.
> 
> Hope you understand.


this entire 200+pages long thread is nothing more than the love affair of our Hazrat with FN SCAR. Ye Mods have been far too lenient too long!!

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## The Eagle

Zarvan said:


> What I understand is what I saw. By the way BREN passed the trials specially CZ 807 but yes SCAR was way ahead in performance but BREN also passed the tests in fact CZ 807 is leading candidate in Type 56 replacement program. Baluchistan Police is looking to get new weapons and report was about CZECH showing there weapons and commander southern command was also present on the occasion. There giant size guy was firing CZ 807 and Scorpion and our Police Guy was shown firing some handgun from CZ. What I don't know is whether Baluchistan Government also tested other Rifles or not. Sir many sarkari people tell many things you just should know How to get the info. I am not discussing personal observation I am discussing the info I have.



Zarvan, the info you have is not necessarily to be correct so you posted once your opinion then there is no need to repeat it again & again. Don't you see how many informed and credible members/seniors are silent on this issue. I have no interest if Baluchistan Police was shown standing with a giant guy looking at CZ BREN etc. All I have to say is, personal wish/opinion aside, we have to carry on discussion with some serious sort of info or we can ask for updates. Kindly avoid posting off-topic discussion and irrelevant information. You must understand that the matter is serious and is related of an official subject and any information without nay substance/source is nothing but speculation and baseless claims or the same may fall under leak criteria whcih is totally wrong.

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## Zarvan

The Eagle said:


> Zarvan, the info you have is not necessarily to be correct so you posted once your opinion then there is no need to repeat it again & again. Don't you see how many informed and credible members/seniors are silent on this issue. I have no interest if Baluchistan Police was shown standing with a giant guy looking at CZ BREN etc. All I have to say is, personal wish/opinion aside, we have to carry on discussion with some serious sort of info or we can ask for updates. Kindly avoid posting off-topic discussion and irrelevant information. You must understand that the matter is serious and is related of an official subject and any information without nay substance/source is nothing but speculation and baseless claims or the same may fall under leak criteria whcih is totally wrong.


Sir other member make me repeat things but from now I will trying to avoid as for Baluchistan well I don't know about the other things but the video SAMMA showed Scorpion and CZ 807 and handgun were being fired and several Police Officers were present also along with representatives of CZ.


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## Thunder.Storm

@Zarvan @Path-Finder @parkour guy @TheOccupiedKashmir @razgriz19 @Tiger Awan @Arsalan @Bratva 
Can any buddy shed some light.

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## Path-Finder

Thunder.Storm said:


> @Zarvan @Path-Finder @parkour guy @TheOccupiedKashmir @razgriz19 @Tiger Awan @Arsalan @Bratva
> Can any buddy shed some light.


This is something Hazrat @Zarvan was referring to yesterday. CZ are contender for weapons purchasing by Balochistan LEA's.

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## The Eagle

Zarvan said:


> Sir other member make me repeat things but from now I will trying to avoid as for Baluchistan well I don't know about the other things but the video SAMMA showed Scorpion and CZ 807 and handgun were being fired and several Police Officers were present also along with representatives of CZ.



MY dear, I respect your enthusiasm in this regard but if you have to share anything w.r.t. news, do share with link/source that too while being on subject. Baluchistan LEA's (Provincial) is attempting to purchase a weapon (seems like a provincial government tender for new purchase), create a new thread for such discussion that has nothing to do with this subject at all. 

Hopefully, no further derailing by anyone and let's keep this thread informative and qualitative as before.

Edit: Irrelevant/off-topic posts are removed, if there is any, kindly do report without quoting back.

Regards,

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## Zarvan

Thunder.Storm said:


> @Zarvan @Path-Finder @parkour guy @TheOccupiedKashmir @razgriz19 @Tiger Awan @Arsalan @Bratva
> Can any buddy shed some light.


I can clearly see CZ 807 both 5.56 X 45 and 7.62 X 39 being fired. Another thing which is coming to mind is that Army is taking control of not only Police recruitment but also of there weapons induction but the only question for me is which are the other companies which are showing there weapons in Baluchistan.

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## Thunder.Storm

Zarvan said:


> I can clearly see CZ 807 both 5.56 X 45 and 7.62 X 39 being fired. Another thing which is coming to mind is that Army is taking control of not only Police recruitment but also of there weapons induction but the only question for me is which are the other companies which are showing there weapons in Baluchistan.


Some buddy told me that they(Baluchistan) may be get or select cz weapons at army advise. And I am thinking that the weapons will be used in Baluchistan, if got success means no problems(any kind) then army will induct it at large scale. this is my thinking it can be wrong.

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## Path-Finder

Thunder.Storm said:


> Some buddy told me that they(Baluchistan) may be get or select cz weapons at army advise. And I am thinking that the weapons will be used in Baluchistan, if got success means no problems(any kind) then army will induct it at large scale. this is my thinking it can be wrong.


But SCAR is not in the picture! you do realise that?


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## Thunder.Storm

Path-Finder said:


> But SCAR is not in the picture! you do realise that?


Yes agree with you and you know the reason. And some people say money is not a problem but actually it is, because army is not buying just a single rifle they are modernizing at large scale but step by step slowly. For example helicopter fleet (gunship and utility) Ah-1z,t-129 etc and aw139 many things are in pipeline so i will say it again "Money Is The Problem". What do you say?

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## Path-Finder

Thunder.Storm said:


> Yes agree with you and you know the reason. And some people say money is not a problem but actually it is, because army is not buying just a single rifle they are modernizing at large scale but step by step slowly. For example helicopter fleet (gunship and utility) Ah-1z,t-129 etc and aw139 many things are in pipeline so i will say it again "Money Is The Problem". What do you say?


100% agreed, money needs to be sought and spent wisely its a widely accepted opinion here on PDF. But then the singular counter argument is money was not an issue when trials started. as if they are ishad dollars rishtedar.

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## Gryphon

Thunder.Storm said:


> @Zarvan @Path-Finder @parkour guy @TheOccupiedKashmir @razgriz19 @Tiger Awan @Arsalan @Bratva
> Can any buddy shed some light.



Thanks for the video !!

It was a demonstration to senior police officials. The man firing the pistol (0:05) appears to have 'ATS commando' written on the back side.

A pistol, CZ SCORPION EVO 3 A1 and CZ 807 (5.56×45mm version) were used.

7.62×39mm CZ 807 (with golden tint) can be seen on the table.

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## Zarvan

Thunder.Storm said:


> Yes agree with you and you know the reason. And some people say money is not a problem but actually it is, because army is not buying just a single rifle they are modernizing at large scale but step by step slowly. For example helicopter fleet (gunship and utility) Ah-1z,t-129 etc and aw139 many things are in pipeline so i will say it again "Money Is The Problem". What do you say?


Yes Army suggested BREN to Baluchistan because it along with SCAR passed the trials. Other than that it has nothing to do with Army induction neither Army plans to wait for How it performs in Baluchistan than induct. Army is already doing there seperate talks and finally money is not the issue here


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## ali_raza




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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

I'm just speculating, but I don't think the MoDP will take kindly to Baluchistan LEAs importing guns. POF even complained about this to the Senate Committee for Defence Production last year, when it also officially announced plans to produce a G-3 successor. 

This could also be CZ doing a tour as part of its Pakistan marketing campaign. CZ fully understands that this is a big market, and it's at the table with POF and the MoDP to secure a deal. It might be trying to get the LEAs to back the BREN, Scorpion and P-series handguns so that a deal can be had with POF.

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## Zarvan

ali_raza said:


> View attachment 387557


I can see more Army guys in picture than Police Guys. Good Army is now monitoring what is going on in Police Force and making sure merit is there and also they have great weapons. Now I hope both Armed Forces and Police Force also go for large number of MRAP and also good bullet proof vests. By the way I can see CZ 807 7.62 X 39 and 5.56 X 45 and I think CZ 806 and marksman version of BREN is also there and last but not the least Scorpion



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I'm just speculating, but I don't think the MoDP will take kindly to Baluchistan LEAs importing guns. POF even complained about this to the Senate Committee for Defence Production last year, when it also officially announced plans to produce a G-3 successor.
> 
> This could also be CZ doing a tour as part of its Pakistan marketing campaign. CZ fully understands that this is a big market, and it's at the table with POF and the MoDP to secure a deal. It might be trying to get the LEAs to back the BREN, Scorpion and P-series handguns so that a deal can be had with POF.


Also in Government decides to launch these in civilian markets

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## Path-Finder

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I'm just speculating, but I don't think the MoDP will take kindly to Baluchistan LEAs importing guns. POF even complained about this to the Senate Committee for Defence Production last year, when it also officially announced plans to produce a G-3 successor.
> 
> This could also be CZ doing a tour as part of its Pakistan marketing campaign. CZ fully understands that this is a big market, and it's at the table with POF and the MoDP to secure a deal. It might be trying to get the LEAs to back the BREN, Scorpion and P-series handguns so that a deal can be had with POF.


CZ is not only focusing in Pakistan but it is now really doing hard marketing all over the middle east as their weapons are gaining notoriety due to their prestige in craftsmanship and reliability.

But the question still hangs over SCAR

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## Thorough Pro

CZ is not gaining any notoriety "now" its a well established name known for the quality and reliability of its weapons. CZ75 is/was the most widely used side arm by the LEA's around the world.




Bratva said:


> Can we somehow stop this circus in this informative and serious thread ?





ZULUDARKTANGO said:


> YEAH I also have good news regarding this, but cant quote.





Path-Finder said:


> CZ is not only focusing in Pakistan but it is now really doing hard marketing all over the middle east as their weapons are gaining notoriety due to their prestige in craftsmanship and reliability.
> 
> But the question still hangs over SCAR

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## Gryphon

Path-Finder said:


> But the question still hangs over SCAR



You know it's not coming. Why rub salt into someone's wounds ?



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I'm just speculating, but I don't think the MoDP will take kindly to Baluchistan LEAs importing guns. POF even complained about this to the Senate Committee for Defence Production last year, when it also officially announced plans to produce a G-3 successor.
> 
> This could also be CZ doing a tour as part of its Pakistan marketing campaign. CZ fully understands that this is a big market, and it's at the table with POF and the MoDP to secure a deal. It might be trying to get the LEAs to back the BREN, Scorpion and P-series handguns so that a deal can be had with POF.



A number of Army personnel are visible in the video. I assume it was an Army supported event.

No OEM is going to provide ToT without (significant) initial off-the-shelf purchases. Direct imports by LEA's could help soften the deal.

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## Arsalan

The Eagle said:


> @Zarvan bro, if Pakistan Military rejects a rifle, what on right mind can even think that it will still be brought for Police and if we go by the same definition, SSU in Karachi has SCAR in armory so does it mean we inducted the same, No but bought/direct purchase for Police and has nothing to do with Military trials.
> 
> Also, Media is not a source nor credible enough to believe like we know how they most of the times shows Missiles without any clue Ghori for Babur or what not. I must say, Media is totally clueless especially when it comes to defence related news and sometimes for rating, they go crazy and did many silly things in past.
> 
> Further-more, if I am a civilian then why would a Sarkari Banda will tell me something which is not available in public domain nor is allowed to be told that too on a social website or through some unknown contacts. I will never ever disclose any news which is marked as secret or confidential. Kindly avoid believing words of the people with no credibility. What we all know is, totally tight lipped service till now w.r.t. winner of trials. However, discussing the content on the basis of personal observation is not wrong and everyone is at liberty to do so but we should keep in mind that, the same may not be pushed again & again as a fact that Officials are not telling yet.
> 
> Hope you understand.


I pray that your words can deliver the message better than mine ever did!!! 
But see how i used "pray" instead of "hope"



Bratva said:


> Can we somehow stop this circus in this informative and serious thread ?


*YES PLEASE!!!
*


Zarvan said:


> What I understand is what I saw. By the way BREN passed the trials specially CZ 807 but yes SCAR was way ahead in performance but BREN also passed the tests in fact CZ 807 is leading candidate in Type 56 replacement program. Baluchistan Police is looking to get new weapons and report was about CZECH showing there weapons and commander southern command was also present on the occasion. There giant size guy was firing CZ 807 and Scorpion and our Police Guy was shown firing some handgun from CZ. What I don't know is whether Baluchistan Government also tested other Rifles or not. Sir many sarkari people tell many things you just should know How to get the info. I am not discussing personal observation I am discussing the info I have.


Two guns were given the nod and were approved as option 1, BOTH ARE THE SAME ONCE THEY ARE GIVEN GO AHEAD WITH NO ONE HAVING PREFERENCE OVER ANOTHER. The next step was/is of finalizing the business deal and the firm that can offer more will be selected. After these two guns (Again, no one having absolutely any preference over the other) there was an option of 3rd given as well, that is, if a business deal with one of these two top preferences can be finalized then there was a second option to work on. However both CZ and FN are playing ball and we will finalize a deal with these most probably unless something drastic happens!!



TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> A number of Army personnel are visible in the video. I assume it was an Army supported event.


While you suppose this was an army supported event there are people here who will use this image as a proof that ARMY IS NOT CONTROLLING POLICE with absolutely NO idea regarding the implication of such remarks. Army controlling police. You can see that it have already started.

*Army training the police* is one thing
*Army controlling the police,* there recruitment and the hardware they buy is an absolutely different thing and surely not something very positive but, WHO CARES!! The Pic is a sahifa now!!

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## Gryphon

*CZECH FIREARMS MAKER CZ CONTINUES WITH REGIONAL MARKETING PUSH*

*




*
_Ceska zbrojovka (CZ) stand at IDEX 2017 in Abu Dhabi, UAE. Photo credit: CZ_

Daily News
Bilal Khan -Mar 30, 2017

The Czech firearms designer and manufacturer Česká zbrojovka (CZ) made a concerted marketing push for the Middle East market during the 2017 International Defence Exhibition and Conference (IDEX), which took in Abu Dhabi in February.

In its news release, CZ states that it showcased its CZ-806 BREN 2 modular assault rifle, which can be chambered for 5.56×45 mm NATO and 7.62×39 mm rounds, and introduced the new CZ P-10C pistol with a linear striker. As per CZ, “both [products] enjoyed a lot of interest” from IDEX attendees, which included armed forces personnel from many countries. CZ also noted that it had “an important meeting” with Pakistan’s Minister of Defence Production (MoDP), Rana Tanveer Hussain.

Interestingly, a recent video emerged of CZ conducting an event showcasing the CZ-806 BREN (or CZ-807), Scorpion EVO 3, and P-series pistols in Baluchistan, Pakistan. Local law-enforcement and Pakistan Army officials were present at the event.

*Notes & Comments:*

In November 2016, Pakistan Ordnance Factories (POF) and CZ signed a letter-of-understanding (LoU) to “intensively negotiate [the] delivery of complete technology for the production of small arms to [POF].” The LoU entailed the discussion transfer-of-technology, including the “gradual launching of production in Pakistan, ranging from light assembly to maximum localization.”

The LoU, which was just a commitment to negotiate (i.e. not an actual contract), was seen to be in regards to the Pakistan Army’s next-generation standard-issue assault/battle rifle program, which envisaged to gradually supplant the Army’s legacy Heckler & Koch (HK) G-3 battle rifles and Type 56 assault rifles. CZ had even displayed firing-test results from a 7.62×51 mm NATO version of the CZ-807 at IDEAS.

CZ’s meeting with the MoDP in IDEX is the latest known interaction between the two sides. It is not known if this agreement will be concluded, but CZ is still engaged with Pakistan.

CZECH FIREARMS MAKER CZ CONTINUES WITH REGIONAL MARKETING PUSH | Quwa Defence News and Analysis Group

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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> Army is controlling the thing when you are controlling the recruitment and also training and few other things you are controlling the Police Force. As for rifle you have already said what I was going to say but you left out few things.


Yup, you know this from that picture!! since there were men in army uniform along side police it is safe to claim that some source have told you that army is controlling the police. Cool!

Regarding gun, NO, you have not been saying that. You are still in that race mode with on top and at bottom mentality. IN real world. once the approval of two systems is given no one is given preference over the other when they are EQUALLY ACCEPTABLE. The second choice is a third gun but that is a closed chapter for now.


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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> They are controlling recruitment in Sindh now in KPK as they already improved so nothing new and they are also now checking recruitment and training of Police in Baluchistan and also what weapons they get. What else is controlling ??????????


O bahi!!!

CONTROLLING is something different, it includes policy making, decision making, law enforcement, postings, actions and reactions,,,,, BEING engaged in recruitment process, ENGAGED, is not CONTROLLING a certain institute by any means. Police is a seprate instituion. DO NOT MIX THEM UP. Army was present at polling stations during last elections as well, do you mean they CONTROLLED the elections? They are there with polio team as well.. YOU MEAN TO SAY THEY ARE CONTROLLING LADY HEALTH WORKERS too?? Koi kuda khofi kro!! 

*Being helpful is not controlling!! *

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## Gryphon

Arsalan said:


> Yup, you know this from that picture!! since there were men in army uniform along side police it is safe to claim that some source have told you that army is controlling the police. Cool!



FN and Beretta are nowhere in sight since the LoU with CZ.

An administrator here claimed 'FN was the best in trials to replace G3, AK-103 outperformed CZ 807' just to keep the fanboys going.

Regarding my comment of 'army supporting this event', I believe it is actually the case. Direct imports by LEA's could help soften the deal.



> From DAWN:
> 
> During the briefing, Hayat regretted that domestic security institutions are not placing orders with POF, and instead buy from third-party vendors.
> 
> “Only KPK police are procuring uniforms, arms and ammunition from the POF,” he said.

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## Path-Finder

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> FN and Beretta are nowhere in sight since the LoU with CZ.
> 
> An administrator here claimed 'FN was the best in trials to replace G3, AK-103 outperformed CZ 807' just to keep the fanboys going.
> 
> Regarding my comment of 'army supporting this event', I believe it is actually the case. Direct imports by LEA's could help soften the deal.


There was A signing of MoU in IDEX17 regarding Beretta Pistols! But yes Rifle selection has not gone beyond CZ so far.

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## Gryphon

Path-Finder said:


> There was A signing of MoU in IDEX17 regarding Beretta Pistols! But yes Rifle selection has not gone beyond CZ so far.



CZ has shown the flexibility which others could not. Things have progressed to meetings and parallel sales to LEA's.

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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> I am not talking nonsense Army is monitoring recruitment in Sindhi and Baluchistan and don't know about Punjab but if not happening now will happen soon. They were already giving Police weapons training for sometime so if our provinces other KPK don't get there act together I won't be surprised if Army increases its control further of Police. Because Army is fed up of doing Police work. Every where in the world Police is leading the fight against terrorism no matter How strong the militancy is but we are quite a case of How not do things.


thanks God you came back to MONITORING from CONTROLLING. I hope you understand the difference and its implications!!
*Monitoring and helping in recruitment process, YES 
Controlling the police as an institute, (as your earlier posts suggested) NO!! 
*


TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> CZ has shown the flexibility which others could not. Things have progressed to meetings and parallel sales to LEA's.


This is a good development indeed.


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## The Eagle

Any further derailing will initially lead to thread ban. Thread cleaned from off-topic discussion for the time being and must avoid such useless practice.

Thanks.

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## Sine Nomine

LMAO would any body will care to elaborate about,the choice of calibre PA is going to make,since many are here with links all over in MoDP.
Hazrat @Zarvan your SCAR is piece of junk


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## Zarvan

قناص said:


> LMAO would any body will care to elaborate about,the choice of calibre PA is going to make,since many are here with links all over in MoDP.
> Hazrat @Zarvan your SCAR is piece of junk


Pakistan plans to use both 7.62 X 39 and 7.62 X 51 and your thoughts on SCAR are based on what ?


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## Sine Nomine

Zarvan said:


> Pakistan plans to use both 7.62 X 39 and 7.62 X 51 and your thoughts on SCAR are based on what ?


Elaborate why,we would like to strain our logistics,when at engagement range in battlefield x51 is offering nothing as compared to x39?
When in COIN Ops and Urban warfare battle rifles have proven useless.
In Current Ops of PA,G3 proved itself a disaster and in many ops men died due to Battlerifle.

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## Zarvan

قناص said:


> Elaborate why,we would like to strain our logistics,when at engagement range in battlefield x51 is offering nothing as compared to x39?
> When in COIN Ops and Urban warfare battle rifles have proven useless.
> In Current Ops of PA,G3 proved itself a disaster and in many ops men died due to Battlerifle.


Seriously !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We had no issue with 7.62 X 51 caliber the problem was G3. We would have used 7.62 X 51 if G3 would have been easy to carry just like Type 56. As for logistics Army doesn't have issue. They hardly use one type in everything they go for several things.


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## The Sandman

Arsalan said:


> Nishan? the guy who would sugegest that Army should select ARX, FN SCAR and CZ BERN and also buy HK416, each soldier should be carrying four guns at all times so he can fire whichever guns he wants to!! Who wala Nishan?


What?  we really had a member who said that?

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## Sine Nomine

Zarvan said:


> Seriously !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We had no issue with 7.62 X 51 caliber the problem was G3. We would have used 7.62 X 51 if G3 would have been easy to carry just like Type 56. As for logistics Army doesn't have issue. They hardly use one type in everything they go for several things.


Hazarat @Zarvan your problem is that you haven't seen any action and use of these weapons in live firefight.
7.62x51 has no problem as cartridge but in operations it has proven itself highly unloved one,weapon chambered in that are simply overkill and highly unreliable tools in CQB scenario+are bulky+low ammo carriage etc.
While x39 is loved in NW by troops,SF has adopted it,weapon chambered in it are reliable in CQB scenario+weapon system is itself light+more ammo can be carried.
You would have been thinking like many others,performance of calibre 7.62x39 at long range,but to your and many other people's surprise there is no long range engagement for riflemen.All engagement of infantry riflemen would start from 20-25 yards to 100 yards while 300 very rare.
http://donaldmsensing.blogspot.com/2003/06/infantry-rifle-combat-distances.html?m=1
PA currently is conducting studies for successor,who can be effective in all battlefields and all type of ops.
7.62x39 has proved it's metal in current COIN Ops,Kargil,and siachen.
@DESERT FIGHTER dude you have first-hand experience of shooting 5.56,x51 and 39 tell our Hazrat.Otherwise a civil war will erupt if SCAR is not selected.

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## Path-Finder

قناص said:


> Hazarat @Zarvan your problem is that you haven't seen any action and use of these weapons in live firefight.
> 7.62x51 has no problem as cartridge but in operations it has proven itself highly unloved one,weapon chambered in that are simply overkill and highly unreliable tools in CQB scenario+are bulky+low ammo carriage etc.
> While x39 is loved in NW by troops,SF has adopted it,weapon chambered in it are reliable in CQB scenario+weapon system is itself light+more ammo can be carried.
> You would have been thinking like many others,performance of calibre 7.62x39 at long range,but to your and many other people's surprise there is no long range engagement for riflemen.All engagement of infantry riflemen would start from 20-25 yards to 100 yards while 300 very rare.
> http://donaldmsensing.blogspot.com/2003/06/infantry-rifle-combat-distances.html?m=1
> PA currently is conducting studies for successor,who can be effective in all battlefields and all type of ops.
> 7.62x39 has proved it's metal in current COIN Ops,Kargil,and siachen.
> @DESERT FIGHTER dude you have first-hand experience of shooting 5.56,x51 and 39 tell our Hazrat.Otherwise a civil war will erupt if SCAR is not selected.


you talk about Successor to x39? or both x39 & x51? could something like the various 6mm cartridges be considered including the .300 blackout? Please don't do toheen of SCAR


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## Sine Nomine

Path-Finder said:


> you talk about Successor to x39? or both x39 & x51? could something like the various 6mm cartridges be considered including the .300 blackout?


Well replacement of x51 as rifle cartridge,if you remember back in 2005 Pakistan tried to replace it with 5.56 and produced a G3 chambered in 5.56 known as Pk 08,but that failed due to WoT,Performance of 5.56 as compared to x39 in Afghanistan and Unsatisfactory results produced by PK 08 during trials.
It likely that we will opt x39 citing the fact that,it's most widely used calibre in our region,almost all of our neighbour's and militias in our region are fielding weapons chambered in this calibre.And that is going to increase in coming years.
Both CZ 807 and ARX 160 have got feed problems,due to mags.I hope they have been sorted out.
And SCAR-L that showed terrible accuracy problem.

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## Zarvan

قناص said:


> Hazarat @Zarvan your problem is that you haven't seen any action and use of these weapons in live firefight.
> 7.62x51 has no problem as cartridge but in operations it has proven itself highly unloved one,weapon chambered in that are simply overkill and highly unreliable tools in CQB scenario+are bulky+low ammo carriage etc.
> While x39 is loved in NW by troops,SF has adopted it,weapon chambered in it are reliable in CQB scenario+weapon system is itself light+more ammo can be carried.
> You would have been thinking like many others,performance of calibre 7.62x39 at long range,but to your and many other people's surprise there is no long range engagement for riflemen.All engagement of infantry riflemen would start from 20-25 yards to 100 yards while 300 very rare.
> http://donaldmsensing.blogspot.com/2003/06/infantry-rifle-combat-distances.html?m=1
> PA currently is conducting studies for successor,who can be effective in all battlefields and all type of ops.
> 7.62x39 has proved it's metal in current COIN Ops,Kargil,and siachen.
> @DESERT FIGHTER dude you have first-hand experience of shooting 5.56,x51 and 39 tell our Hazrat.Otherwise a civil war will erupt if SCAR is not selected.


For your information Pakistan Army is fully satisfied with 7.62 X 51 caliber and they plan to use both. That is why two tenders were issued one to replace G3 and one to replace Type 56. You talked about overkill that is exactly the thing which Army loves about X 51


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## Arsalan

The Sandman said:


> What?  we really had a member who said that?


If you haven't seen him you have seen NOTHING!!
A couple of carrier battle groups with F35s, a dozen or so nuclear submarines etc etc were routine procurement plans.

Anyway, lets stick to the topic now. 



قناص said:


> Elaborate why,we would like to strain our logistics,when at engagement range in battlefield x51 is offering nothing as compared to x39?
> When in COIN Ops and Urban warfare battle rifles have proven useless.
> In Current Ops of PA,G3 proved itself a disaster and in many ops men died due to Battlerifle.


bss AWAIN!!

ON a serious note, we have the capability to produce 7.62x51 rounds and there is a whole plant dedicated to it. Plus army do love its "over kill" capability. It is likely that we will go for two calibers, both x39 and x51. However i do agree that x51 do not offers much over x39 and it will be ideal if we can standardize the ammunition and go with one (which then SHOULD be 7.62 x 39mm and not x51) but the fact remains that we have huge stock piles of x51 and a well oiled setup for manufacturing the same, wont close that. Plus the NATO connection cannot be ignored either. 

To conclude from my side, it is likely that both x51 and x39 will be selected, separate rifle for both. For battle field rifle, we will stick to x51 and for assault rifle and CQB we will go for x39.
However, if ONLY ONE have to be selected then it should surely be x39.

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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> If you haven't seen him you have seen NOTHING!!
> A couple of carrier battle groups with F35s, a dozen or so nuclear submarines etc etc were routine procurement plans.
> 
> Anyway, lets stick to the topic now.
> 
> 
> bss AWAIN!!
> 
> ON a serious note, we have the capability to produce 7.62x51 rounds and there is a whole plant dedicated to it. Plus army do love its "over kill" capability. It is likely that we will go for two calibers, both x39 and x51. However i do agree that x51 do not offers much over x39 and it will be ideal if we can standardize the ammunition and go with one (which then SHOULD be 7.62 x 39mm and not x51) but the fact remains that we have huge stock piles of x51 and a well oiled setup for manufacturing the same, wont close that. Plus the NATO connection cannot be ignored either.
> 
> To conclude from my side, it is likely that both x51 and x39 will be selected, separate rifle for both. For battle field rifle, we will stick to x51 and for assault rifle and CQB we will go for x39.
> However, if ONLY ONE have to be selected then it should surely be x39.


Can you start a thread on calibers and discuss that not particular to Pakistan but as General discussion on pros and cons of every caliber also of HandGuns. And yes overkill is the most loved part of x 51 for our forces.


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## Sine Nomine

Zarvan said:


> For your information Pakistan Army is fully satisfied with 7.62 X 51 caliber and they plan to use both. That is why two tenders were issued one to replace G3 and one to replace Type 56. You talked about overkill that is exactly the thing which Army loves about X 51


Zarvan sahab if Army would have satisfied with it in all theatres of operations we wouldn't have inducted thousands of AK's in one night.
And Army loves overkill and same system cannot be deployed efficiently in urban and cqb scenarios.


Arsalan said:


> bss AWAIN!!
> 
> ON a serious note, we have the capability to produce 7.62x51 rounds and there is a whole unit dedicated to it. Plus army do love its "over kill" capability. It is likely that we will go for two calibers, both x39 and x51. However i do agree that x51 do not offers much over x39 and it will be ideal if we can standardize the ammunition and go with one (which then SHOULD be 7.62 x 39mm and not x51). In short, there are chances that both will be carried forward but if one is to be selected it SHOULD be x39, no doubts on that.


Well this overkill comes with many limitations and x39 is also an over kill.For decades we have deployed x39 successfully in siachen.In WoT it proved it's worth along with system.There is nothing worth in carrying both at engagement ranges x39 offers same as x51 but also with low recoil,better control and deadly effects.
We have also a unit dedicated to produce x39 for AK's and RPD's


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## Zarvan

قناص said:


> Zarvan sahab if Army would have satisfied with it in all theatres of operations we wouldn't have inducted thousands of AK's in one night.
> And Army loves overkill and same system cannot be deployed efficiently in urban and cqb scenarios.
> 
> Well this overkill comes with many limitations and x39 is also an over kill.For decades we have deployed x39 successfully in siachen.In WoT it proved it's worth along with system.There is nothing worth in carrying both at engagement ranges x39 offers same as x51 but also with low recoil,better control and deadly effects.
> 
> 
> Zarvan sahab if Army would have satisfied with it in all theatres of operations we wouldn't have inducted thousands of AK's in one night.
> And Army loves overkill and same system cannot be deployed efficiently in urban and cqb scenarios.
> 
> Well this overkill comes with many limitations and x39 is also an over kill.For decades we have deployed x39 successfully in siachen.In WoT it proved it's worth along with system.There is nothing worth in carrying both at engagement ranges x39 offers same as x51 but also with low recoil,better control and deadly effects.
> We have also a unit dedicated to produce x39 for AK's and RPD's



We inducted AK because we were already producing x 39 and AK was from China was the only revealing Gun available to us and it wasn't available in x 51 caliber. I repeat we don't G3 in QRF the issue is with G3 not caliber x 51. You are mixing two things.


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## Sine Nomine

Zarvan said:


> And yes overkill is the most loved part of x 51 for our forces.


Please tell us why?


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## Zarvan

قناص said:


> Please tell us why?


Because we don't believe in the policy of injuring the enemy of even giving him chance of surviving when we go for it we go on rampage and to kill until and unless we have hostage situation other than that the policy is of no mercy


----------



## Sine Nomine

Zarvan said:


> We inducted AK because we were already producing x 39 and AK was from China was the only revealing Gun available to us and it wasn't available in x 51 caliber. I repeat we don't G3 in QRF the issue is with G3 not caliber x 51. You are mixing two things.


The issue was x51 because any rifle with that calibre would have same recoil and control issues.In QRF we deployed it because mostly QRFF has to deal with CQB scenarios.



Zarvan said:


> Because we don't believe in the policy of injuring the enemy of even giving him chance of surviving when we go for it we go on rampage and to kill until and unless we have hostage situation other than that the policy is of no mercy


Lol Hazarat Over kill means that this weapon isn't required a weapon with low calibre can do the same job+will remove issues due to weight,length and recoil.
Have you killed someone with x39,at typical engagement ranges both x51 and 5.56 will leave body but x39 will stay.
At long ranges above 100 yards x51 platform offers a recoil which reduces chances of hitting but x39 is still controllable at that range with same punch as x51


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## Zarvan

قناص said:


> The issue was x51 because any rifle with that calibre would have same recoil and control issues.In QRF we deployed it because mostly QRFF has to deal with CQB scenarios.
> 
> 
> Lol Hazarat Over kill means that this weapon isn't required a weapon with low calibre can do the same job+will remove issues due to weight,length and recoil.
> Have you killed someone with x39,at typical engagement ranges both x51 and 5.56 will leave body but x39 will stay.
> At long ranges above 100 yards x51 platform offers a recoil which reduces chances of hitting but x39 is still controllable at that range with same punch as x51


Your AK also have massive recoil issue and yes as it's big caliber x 51 has recoil issue but soldiers are trained to handle it and SCAR has one of the least recoil.


----------



## Sine Nomine

Zarvan said:


> Your AK also have massive recoil issue and yes as it's big caliber x 51 has recoil issue but soldiers are trained to handle it and SCAR has one of the least recoil.


Have you used AK or even studied it,new AK version are boosting a low recoil,hence more control and low weight,that allows carrying of more ammo and smooth movement in ops.
Low recoil doesn't means lower then x39 systems, you will not be able to use SCAR in CQB or Urban warfare due to length of system.
US and West is also thinking to depart from 5.56,it should be noted that they abounded x51 in past.


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## Zarvan

قناص said:


> Have you used AK or even studied it,new AK version are boosting a low recoil,hence more control and low weight,that allows carrying of more ammo and smooth movement in ops.
> Low recoil doesn't means lower then x39 systems, you will not be able to use SCAR in CQB or Urban warfare due to length of system.
> US and West is also thinking to depart from 5.56,it should be noted that they abounded x51 in past.


US and West are departing from 5.56 but not going for x 39 but returning to x 51. USA is inducting SCAR H mainly and some units may go for HK 416 and HK 417. Also in Europe many companies are coming up with x 51 Rifles.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

The advantage of these new 'modular' rifle designs - e.g. BREN, SCAR, ARX, etc - is that they can be built, and even modified, for different rounds. Switching the CZ-807 between 5.56 and 7.62x39 involves swapping barrel assembly, bolt and firing pin. The supply channel advantage is that POF doesn't need to embrace two or three rifle platforms, but simply produce one platform with the requisite parts for each round as required by the end-user.

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## Arsalan

قناص said:


> Well this overkill comes with many limitations and x39 is also an over kill.For decades we have deployed x39 successfully in siachen.In WoT it proved it's worth along with system.There is nothing worth in carrying both at engagement ranges x39 offers same as x51 but also with low recoil,better control and deadly effects.
> We have also a unit dedicated to produce x39 for AK's and RPD's



It does have many limitation, also considering PA scenario! I am not saying whether it is right or wrong, just stating that the army still have love for x51 and the reasons for this love affair. Overkill is just one thing i mentioned, the present setup is another major factor.

As i said, it is likely that we go for both but if it one that have to be selected, it SURELY should be x39 (the statement do confirms the limitations of x51)

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## Gryphon

Arsalan said:


> Plus army do love its "over kill" capability. It is likely that we will go for two calibers, both x39 and x51. However i do agree that x51 do not offers much over x39 and it will be ideal if we can standardize the ammunition and go with one (which then SHOULD be 7.62 x 39mm and not x51) but the fact remains that we have huge stock piles of x51 and a well oiled setup for manufacturing the same, wont close that. Plus the NATO connection cannot be ignored either.
> 
> To conclude from my side, it is likely that both x51 and x39 will be selected, separate rifle for both. For battle field rifle, we will stick to x51 and for assault rifle and CQB we will go for x39.
> However, if ONLY ONE have to be selected then it should surely be x39.



7.62x39mm can't penetrate higher NIJ Level Bullet proof jackets and vests.

A CZ official confirmed that PA tested both x39 and x51 versions of the CZ 807.

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## Arsalan

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> 7.62x39mm can't penetrate higher NIJ Level Bullet proof jackets and vests.
> 
> A CZ official confirmed that PA tested both x39 and x51 versions of the CZ 807.


Yup we did. x51 is a love affair and given the some advantages it offer and considering the existing setup, it is likely that they will stay.

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## Sine Nomine

Zarvan said:


> US and West are departing from 5.56 but not going for x 39 but returning to x 51. USA is inducting SCAR H mainly and some units may go for HK 416 and HK 417. Also in Europe many companies are coming up with x 51 Rifles.


Hazrat tell me a single fu@king county which has adopted SCAR as standard rifle and how many countries have adopted a Battle Rifle in past decades other Turkey.



Arsalan said:


> Yup we did. x51 is a love affair and given the some advantages it offer and considering the existing setup, it is likely that they will stay.


And that's a one bad chosen love affair.


----------



## Zarvan

قناص said:


> Hazrat tell me a single fu@king county which has adopted SCAR as standard rifle and how many countries have adopted a Battle Rifle in past decades other Turkey.
> 
> 
> And that's a one bad chosen love affair.


SCAR is not being inducted because it has massive price that is why many countries are only getting them for there special forces I was amazed to see them in Pakistani trials but it seem we are ready to pay the price


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## Sine Nomine

Zarvan said:


> SCAR is not being inducted because it has massive price that is why many countries are only getting them for there special forces I was amazed to see them in Pakistani trials but it seem we are ready to pay the price


Massive price is it 1 million a rifle?


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## Gryphon

قناص said:


> Massive price is it 1 million a rifle?





Rifle leni hai ki missile ?


----------



## parkour guy

Let's finalize this.
Scar for the special forces.
CZ Bren 806 2 for regular infantry.

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## Path-Finder

قناص said:


> The issue was x51 because any rifle with that calibre would have same recoil and control issues.In QRF we deployed it because mostly QRFF has to deal with CQB scenarios.
> 
> 
> Lol Hazarat Over kill means that this weapon isn't required a weapon with low calibre can do the same job+will remove issues due to weight,length and recoil.
> Have you killed someone with x39,at typical engagement ranges both x51 and 5.56 will leave body but x39 will stay.
> At long ranges above 100 yards x51 platform offers a recoil which reduces chances of hitting but x39 is still controllable at that range with same punch as x51


This thing about x51 being brought back into service as claimed by Hazrat is not actually the case. yes x51 was briefly reintroduced because of the shortcomings of 556 and its ability to knock down opponents. But 556 has bounced back and the brief resurrection of x51 has been buried again.

556 is gonna go and the US is looking to develop a round based on x39, which being a good case has limitations as well. like tapering which means the magazine has to be curved. 300 blackout has seen limited adoption by special forces as it is 556 casing with 30 caliber bullet and fits standard 556 magazine with the stopping power of x39. All you need is barrel change or upper changes on a AR platform and you are good to go.

x51 will be for machine guns and squad level marksmen at most.



Zarvan said:


> Yes money is not the issue but still SCAR is expensive Gun but we are ready to pay for it I talk like that because unlike people here I don't think that one day Generals woke up and decided to have trials of Guns from money to other aspects every issue was discussed for few years before deciding to go for new Rifle.


prove it. do you have the total cost of acquiring SCAR? don't repeat your old saying of money was not an issue when trials started. You have no info of the total cost of acquiring SCAR so please leave it be.

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> This thing about x51 being brought back into service as claimed by Hazrat is not actually the case. yes x51 was briefly reintroduced because of the shortcomings of 556 and its ability to knock down opponents. But 556 has bounced back and the brief resurrection of x51 has been buried again.
> 
> 556 is gonna go and the US is looking to develop a round based on x39, which being a good case has limitations as well. like tapering which means the magazine has to be curved. 300 blackout has seen limited adoption by special forces as it 556 casing with 30 caliber bullet and fits standard 556 magazine with the stopping power of x39.
> 
> x51 will be for machine guns and squad level marksmen at most.
> 
> 
> prove it. do you have the total cost of acquiring SCAR? don't repeat your old saying of money was not an issue when trials started. You have no info of the total cost of acquiring SCAR so please leave it be.


Going for SCAR means 50 year investment and producing it in Pakistan will also reduce the cost massively. Plus excellent Gun and would be with us for really long time finally we are also getting other weapons from makers of SCAR. What ever the cost is we are ready to pay and what I know is FN Herstal Guys are playing really great till now


----------



## Sage

Zarvan said:


> Going for SCAR means 50 year investment and producing it in Pakistan will also reduce the cost massively. Plus excellent Gun and would be with us for really long time finally we are also getting other weapons from makers of SCAR. What ever the cost is we are ready to pay and what I know is FN Herstal Guys are playing really great till now


FN Herstal guys are not good at playing ...a case in point is their constant denial by the U.S Forces who always tilted towards Austria and Italy ...FN weapons are really the next level of tech ...But this is the problem with the whole mindset of the decision makers (who most of the time are fossils both in age and thinking)...at times they cannot absorb too much good ...SCAR is a reliable weapon ...If G-3 is to be replaced ...SCAR stands a real chance ...if money would not hamper this deal...


----------



## Gryphon

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The advantage of these new 'modular' rifle designs - e.g. BREN, SCAR, ARX, etc - is that they can be built, and even modified, for different rounds. Switching the CZ-807 between 5.56 and 7.62x39 involves swapping barrel assembly, bolt and firing pin. The supply channel advantage is that POF doesn't need to embrace two or three rifle platforms, but simply produce one platform with the requisite parts for each round as required by the end-user.
> 
> View attachment 387756
> View attachment 387755



It will be interesting to see if CZ 807 (x51) retains the simple caliber conversion of its 5.56 NATO & 7.62 Soviet versions.

Few months back, I asked the CZ official to provide a pic of x51 CZ 807 for heaven's sake. He said it is not part of our 'marketing strategy' to release pics before the rifle is officially unveiled (at an event). 

CZ seems to have taken care to ensure the x51 variant is not pictured in Pakistan. I have seen several pics of CZ 807 in Pakistan. None of them was 7.62x51mm.

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## ali_raza

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> It will be interesting to see if CZ 807 (x51) retains the simple caliber conversion of its 5.56 NATO & 7.62 Soviet versions.
> 
> Few months back, I asked the CZ official to provide a pic of x51 CZ 807 for heaven's sake. He said it is not part of our 'marketing strategy' to release pics before the the rifle is officially unveiled (at an event).
> 
> CZ seems to have taken care to ensure the x51 variant is not pictured in Pakistan. I have seen several pics of CZ 807 in Pakistan. None of them was 7.62x51mm.


is it at level of scar when you analyze the overall specification??


----------



## django

قناص said:


> And SCAR-L that showed terrible accuracy problem.


And Hazrat @Zarvan you were leading us to believe that it had outstanding accuracy,,,,@Path-Finder what is the truth here i am getting more perplexed each time I log into the thread lol.Kudos


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## Zarvan

django said:


> And Hazrat @Zarvan you were leading us to believe that it had outstanding accuracy,,,,@Path-Finder what is the truth here i am getting more perplexed each time I log into the thread lol.Kudos


SCAR H has impressive accuracy I just got another news asking the guy can I share it or not waiting for his answer

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## Path-Finder

django said:


> And Hazrat @Zarvan you were leading us to believe that it had outstanding accuracy,,,,@Path-Finder what is the truth here i am getting more perplexed each time I log into the thread lol.Kudos


A anniversary is approaching since Hazrat @Zarvan began his campaign for SCAR rifle. Since then ONLY (the emphasis on only) CZ has had a MoU signed with. Now we hear the same old argument running on a loop and nothing more. 

This thread is now monitored and rubbish is no longer tolerated about time if you ask me.


Zarvan said:


> SCAR H has impressive accuracy I just got another news asking the guy can I share it or not waiting for his answer



Oh Tawadi!Brace ye self

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## django

Zarvan said:


> SCAR H has impressive accuracy I just got another news asking the guy can I share it or not waiting for his answer


SCAR L not SCAR H



Path-Finder said:


> A anniversary is approaching since Hazrat @Zarvan began his campaign for SCAR rifle. Since then ONLY (the emphasis on only) CZ has had a MoU signed with. Now we hear the same old argument running on a loop and nothing more.
> 
> This thread is now monitored and rubbish is no longer tolerated about time if you ask me.
> 
> 
> Oh Tawadi!Brace ye self


I hope for his sake we get it lol


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## Sine Nomine

django said:


> And Hazrat @Zarvan you were leading us to believe that it had outstanding accuracy,,,,@Path-Finder what is the truth here i am getting more perplexed each time I log into the thread lol.Kudos


It's barrel would heat up rapidly and at every shot it will deliver you a terrible accuracy
But now problem would have been solved,I guess,if FN hadn't fixed issue then they have committed a blasphemy.

@django @Path-Finder If any new member and even few old are thinking zarvan is middle man in procurement process from CZ and FN.

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## Zarvan

قناص said:


> It's barrel would heat up rapidly and at every shot it will deliver you a terrible accuracy
> But now problem would have been solved,I guess,if FN hadn't fixed issue then they have committed a blasphemy.
> 
> @django @Path-Finder If any new member and even few old are thinking zarvan is middle man in procurement process from CZ and FN.


Pakistan tested both calibers and loved both but yes SCAR H is way ahead and no I am not the middle man

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## Path-Finder

قناص said:


> It's barrel would heat up rapidly and at every shot it will deliver you a terrible accuracy
> But now problem would have been solved,I guess,if FN hadn't fixed issue then they have committed a blasphemy.
> 
> @django @Path-Finder If any new member and even few old are thinking zarvan is middle man in procurement process from CZ and FN.


Not CZ so much but FN definitely. The moment you post something on this thread Hazrat @Zarvan comes at lightning speed even if you look at the viewers you will see this thread is always under Viewing. SCAR is now a obsession!



django said:


> SCAR L not SCAR H
> 
> 
> I hope for his sake we get it lol


can I ask why his sake?

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## Sine Nomine

Zarvan said:


> Pakistan tested both calibers and loved both but yes SCAR H is way ahead and no I am not the middle man


Who the dafuq told you?


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## Zarvan

قناص said:


> Who the dafuq told you?


I know someone and as for testing both calibers even pictures were posted on this thread where both calibers are visible


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## django

Path-Finder said:


> can I ask why his sake?


I should imagine he will be bitterly disappointed lol.


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> It will be interesting to see if CZ 807 (x51) retains the simple caliber conversion of its 5.56 NATO & 7.62 Soviet versions.
> 
> Few months back, I asked the CZ official to provide a pic of x51 CZ 807 for heaven's sake. He said it is not part of our 'marketing strategy' to release pics before the rifle is officially unveiled (at an event).
> 
> CZ seems to have taken care to ensure the x51 variant is not pictured in Pakistan. I have seen several pics of CZ 807 in Pakistan. None of them was 7.62x51mm.


True. If not the caliber conversion, then the logistical strain of manufacturing a 7.62x51 mm BREN should be much less than maintaining two completely different platforms to fulfill x39 and x51.

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## Rocky rock

*Time to leave the thread! let me know when the decision gets finalize.*

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## Gryphon

In January 2016, India imported CZ 807 rifles worth US$ 11,575 (approx.) for trials.


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## Zarvan

Rocky rock said:


> *Time to leave the thread! let me know when the decision gets finalize.*


Soon keep participating


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## Tiger Awan

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> In January 2016, India imported CZ 807 rifles worth US$ 11,575 (approx.) for trials.



Wow sir, I envy your ability to find all such details


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## Thorough Pro

Indians re-export the ammo too after trials? What do they fire?



TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> In January 2016, India imported CZ 807 rifles worth US$ 11,575 (approx.) for trials.


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## Arsalan

Thorough Pro said:


> Indians re-export the ammo too after trials? What do they fire?


every heard of "thok nal pakoray talna" ? (read it as Punjabi)

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## Gryphon

Thorough Pro said:


> Indians re-export the ammo too after trials? What do they fire?



Vendors fire dollars into the pockets of officials. One who fires more is shortlisted. 
Ammo is re-exported.

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## Thorough Pro

batheri war 



Arsalan said:


> every heard of "thok nal pakoray talna" ? (read it as Punjabi)


----------



## JohnEurope



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## Path-Finder

JohnEurope said:


>


Very Nice Have you seen This






@TheOccupiedKashmir @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @ZarvanHazrat

When will it be introduced

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## WaLeEdK2

Path-Finder said:


> Very Nice Have you seen This
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @TheOccupiedKashmir @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @ZarvanHazrat
> 
> When will it be introduced



To me I think CZ will be the winner. @Zarvan what do you think?

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Path-Finder said:


> Very Nice Have you seen This
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @TheOccupiedKashmir @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @ZarvanHazrat
> 
> When will it be introduced


Well I guess that confirms the LoU...

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## Path-Finder

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Well I guess that confirms the LoU...


Have you seen the recoil handling on it? it is incredibly manageable compared to Type 56. Plus CZ10 & CZ Scorpion seems to be in the bag....as well.



WaLeEdK2 said:


> I'm sure he'll live


I hope so....

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## WaLeEdK2

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Well I guess that confirms the LoU...



Would you say it's safe to say that POF will manufacture these?

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

WaLeEdK2 said:


> Would you say it's safe to say that POF will manufacture these?


Can't say yet ... the LoU is just a commitment to negotiate. This video just confirms that. As for whether the negotiations translate into an actual sale ... we'll have to wait and see.

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## ali_raza

Arsalan said:


> every heard of "thok nal pakoray talna" ? (read it as Punjabi)


i say thuk naal warya pkana

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## Zarvan

WaLeEdK2 said:


> To me I think CZ will be the winner. @Zarvan what do you think?


In 7.62 X 39 yes but it may face another competition really soon and that may not turn out well for CZ. In 7.62 X 51 decision has to be made yet


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> In 7.62 X 39 yes but it may face another competition really soon and that may not turn out well for CZ. In 7.62 X 51 decision has to be made yet


another lara from Hazrat @Zarvan which company is that Hazrator is it tooooo secret to share?


----------



## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Very Nice Have you seen This
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @TheOccupiedKashmir @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @ZarvanHazrat
> 
> When will it be introduced


To Police soon but to Armed Forces it may face a competition even in 7.62 X 39 caliber category but I think it would mostly likely win the x 39 the competition and x 51 the decision is not taken yet not even x 39 actually



Path-Finder said:


> another lara from Hazrat @Zarvan which company is that Hazrator is it tooooo secret to share?


The major company I talk about all the time they didn't came up with x 39 in competition but only were x 51 and were best don't take the name you know which company I am talking about

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> To Police soon but to Armed Forces it may face a competition even in 7.62 X 39 caliber category but I think it would mostly likely win the x 39 the competition and x 51 the decision is not taken yet not even x 39 actually
> 
> 
> The major company I talk about all the time they didn't came up with x 39 in competition but only were x 51 and were best don't take the name you know which company I am talking about


ilm'e ghaib is what this is Hazrat @Zarvan  You used to say that competition is done and there is *NO NEW COMPANY COMING* as *WINNER* *WILL BE ANNOUNCED SOON*!! Is that *not* going against what you used to say???

I am 100% certain Army will progress with CZ & you can laugh with your secret laughing party all you like.

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> ilm'e ghaib is what this is Hazrat @Zarvan  You used to say that competition is done and there is *NO NEW COMPANY COMING* as *WINNER* *WILL BE ANNOUNCED SOON*!! Is that *not* going against what you used to say???
> 
> I am 100% certain Army will progress with CZ & you can laugh with your secret laughing party all you like.
> 
> View attachment 388323



I know for 100 % what Army is doing so nothing to laugh about. CZ won the competition for 7.62 X 39 but now one company which I mentioned is working day and night to come up with x 39 version which already was there but they are making few changes than they will bring it. Now they succeed or not that I don't know but in x 51 category there Rifle is leading and the Rifle you were favoring x 51 in category is out of the competition turns out my doubts about that Rifle accuracy were proven right.



Path-Finder said:


> ilm'e ghaib is what this is Hazrat @Zarvan  You used to say that competition is done and there is *NO NEW COMPANY COMING* as *WINNER* *WILL BE ANNOUNCED SOON*!! Is that *not* going against what you used to say???
> 
> I am 100% certain Army will progress with CZ & you can laugh with your secret laughing party all you like.
> 
> View attachment 388323


A soldier carrying pamphlets of Rifle makes you think that Army will proceed with the rifle shows How you think ?


----------



## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> I know for 100 % what Army is doing so nothing to laugh about. CZ won the competition for 7.62 X 39 but now one company which I mentioned is working day and night to come up with x 39 version which already was there but they are making few changes than they will bring it. Now they succeed or not that I don't know but in x 51 category there Rifle is leading and the Rifle you were favoring x 51 in category is out of the competition turns out my doubts about that Rifle accuracy were proven right.
> 
> 
> A soldier carrying pamphlets of Rifle makes you think that Army will proceed with the rifle shows How you think ?


Hazrat your repetitive words have lost all of their weight sadly! all mumblings and bumblings. Everything is based on hot air that is the problem. may i suggest a crystal ball?

as for pamphlets he is carrying he is carrying a huge wad of them you don't carry that many unless you are distributing them and army obviously recommended this weapon for the police force. Not fiorgeting CZ is the only company with MoU/LoU as well!!!


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat your repetitive words have lost all of their weight sadly! all mumblings and bumblings. Everything is based on hot air that is the problem. may i suggest a crystal ball?
> 
> as for pamphlets he is carrying he is carrying a huge wad of them you don't carry that many unless you are distributing them and army obviously recommended this weapon for the police force. Not fiorgeting CZ is the only company with MoU/LoU as well!!!


Yes there were officers present there of Police and Army and they would like to read about the Rifle which they may buy or they may not still they want to know about the weapon and what it offers so yes every company brings Pamphlets and what I say not hot air. Distributing pamphlets is proof for you !!!! Seriously ??????? 

And by the way I just told you that 7.62 X 39 category was won by BREN it means it won the trial in that category the delay is happening because of that company trying to jump in this category also. And yes as it won the tests and trial for this caliber Army which is monitoring and basically deciding about weapons recommended these Guns to Police Force

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## Kompromat

CZ is chambered in 7.62x39, therefore a replacement for the Type-56 and AKs. SCAR H is chambered in 7.62x51 and it'll replace the G-3. The competition is between the SCAR H and ARX-200.



Path-Finder said:


> ilm'e ghaib is what this is Hazrat @Zarvan  You used to say that competition is done and there is *NO NEW COMPANY COMING* as *WINNER* *WILL BE ANNOUNCED SOON*!! Is that *not* going against what you used to say???
> 
> I am 100% certain Army will progress with CZ & you can laugh with your secret laughing party all you like.
> 
> View attachment 388323

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## Arsalan

Horus said:


> CZ is chambered in 7.62x39, therefore a replacement for the Type-56 and AKs. SCAR H is chambered in 7.62x51 and it'll replace the G-3. The competition is between the SCAR H and ARX-200.


FN SCAR have been a bit pragmatic in there approach lately. What do you think can be the reason? CZ is a done deal for now (in 7.62x39mm) while work is still in progress on that 7.62x51mm. Though it is almost a certainty that we wont be giving up on those x51s do you think that such a possibility (out of absolutely no where) is what have caused things to slow down a bit from SCAR and even Beretta end? They are a little bit stagnant or lack luster at least from what i picked up during a discussion with someone at Wah.


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## Path-Finder

Horus said:


> CZ is chambered in 7.62x39, therefore a replacement for the Type-56 and AKs. SCAR H is chambered in 7.62x51 and it'll replace the G-3. The competition is between the SCAR H and ARX-200.


ahem did Hazrat @Zarvan play a role behind your post? because you never deem me worthy of a reply but you are quoting and replying today


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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> FN SCAR have been a bit pragmatic in there approach lately. What do you think can be the reason? CZ is a done deal for now (in 7.62x39mm) while work is still in progress on that 7.62x51mm. Though it is almost a certainty that we wont be giving up on those x51s do you think that such a possibility (out of absolutely no where) is what have caused things to slow down a bit from SCAR and even Beretta end? They are a little bit stagnant or lack luster at least from what i picked up during a discussion with someone at Wah.


One reason rejection at France second reason the kind of order we would I mean the Rifle which we would buy from them is far more than the combined size of French Armed Forces. Third thing is it's not just SCAR we are looking for 

@Path-Finder

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat @Zarvan you are indeed full of hot air and a year has gone past infact this is second year since trials began late 2015. all you have done is present ghitty phissy theories and nothing more? This entire thread is full of your posts you and your so called "sources". Your theories change as per your own interpretations.







These beauties can also come

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> These beauties can also come


These are meant for Special Forces! I hope you realise that?


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> These are meant for Special Forces! I hope you realise that?


Nope Pakistan is planning to replace most of its old Machine Gun with these. I mean its new 7.62 X 51 version and yes Special Forces will also use these and I forgot Pakistan is also testing HandGuns.


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Nope Pakistan is planning to replace most of its old Machine Gun with these. I mean its new 7.62 X 51 version and yes Special Forces will also use these and I forgot Pakistan is also testing HandGuns.


What you posted is a lighted variant for Special Forces. for regular infantry its this;





as for handguns a MoU was signed with Beretta!


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## Arsalan

Arsalan said:


> FN SCAR have been a bit pragmatic in there approach lately. What do you think can be the reason? CZ is a done deal for now (in 7.62x39mm) while work is still in progress on that 7.62x51mm. Though it is almost a certainty that we wont be giving up on those x51s do you think that such a possibility (out of absolutely no where) is what have caused things to slow down a bit from SCAR and even Beretta end? They are a little bit stagnant or lack luster at least from what i picked up during a discussion with someone at Wah.


@Horus I will still love to hear YOUR views in this despite what @Zarvan said. Whatever your views on this are. One reason we can figure out is that they failed in French deal, that will be playing on minds of all parties involved but that failure was mainly related to caliber! So why this pragmatic approach? Your views?

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> What you posted is a lighted variant for Special Forces. for regular infantry its this;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> as for handguns a MoU was signed with Beretta!



Yes we signed MOU with Berreta for both HandGun and also shortgun but no idea whether we are going to produce them at POF or not.

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Yes we signed MOU with Berreta for both HandGun and also shortgun but no idea whether we are going to produce them at POF or not.


Hazrat MoU/LoU is the next step or the first step after trials for discussions to begin for purchase and ToT transfer. It may not fall through is another factor!

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat MoU/LoU is the next step or the first step after trials for discussions to begin for purchase and ToT transfer. It may not fall through is another factor!


Well it looks like a good gun I hope not only this but also CZ C-10 P is also produced in Pakistan and also launched in civilian markets.



Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat MoU/LoU is the next step or the first step after trials for discussions to begin for purchase and ToT transfer. It may not fall through is another factor!


Well it looks like a good gun I hope not only this but also CZ C-10 P is also produced in Pakistan and also launched in civilian markets.


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## my name is nobody

Horus said:


> CZ is chambered in 7.62x39, therefore a replacement for the Type-56 and AKs. SCAR H is chambered in 7.62x51 and it'll replace the G-3. The competition is between the SCAR H and ARX-200.


CZ has won technical comparison over SCAR in 7,62x51. That is why FN is stagnant.


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## Zarvan

my name is nobody said:


> CZ has won technical comparison over SCAR in 7,62x51. That is why FN is stagnant.


They haven't won anything over SCAR and nothing is stagnant only thing is FN doesn't create that much sound. Work is going on quietly and things would be finalized soon.


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## Arsalan

Path-Finder said:


> What you posted is a lighted variant for Special Forces. for regular infantry its this;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> as for handguns a MoU was signed with Beretta!



Yup, a MoU was signed indeed. That was not exactly a contract for guns but still.
Italy is also working on up gradation and modernization of POF.


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## Tiger Awan

Zarvan said:


> I know for 100 % what Army is doing so nothing to laugh about. *CZ won the competition for 7.62 X 39 *but now one company which I mentioned is working day and night to come up with x 39 version which already was there but they are making few changes than they will bring it. Now they succeed or not that I don't know but in x 51 category there Rifle is leading and the Rifle you were favoring x 51 in category is out of the competition turns out my doubts about that Rifle accuracy were proven right.
> 
> 
> A soldier carrying pamphlets of Rifle makes you think that Army will proceed with the rifle shows How you think ?


If CZ has won the competition for x39, the only reason army will go for another platform for x51 is that CZ was miserable in x51

Pakistan Army has a limited budget and there are a lot of things still unchecked in our shopping list, cant see why we will go for two different and expensive platforms (and yes CZ is expensive compared to our current riffles, SCAR is "VERY" expensive).

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## Zarvan

Tiger Awan said:


> If CZ has won the competition for x39, the only reason army will go for another platform for x51 is that CZ was miserable in x51
> 
> Pakistan Army has a limited budget and there are a lot of things still unchecked in our shopping list, cant see why we will go for two different and expensive platforms (and yes CZ is expensive compared to our current riffles, SCAR is "VERY" expensive).



From day one it was two tenders not one. One tender was for Type 56 replacement and one tender was for G3 replacement. In other words one tender was for x39 caliber Guns and one was for x51 caliber. BREN has won x 39 caliber one in x 51 as @Horus has pointed out it's competition between SCAR and Beretta and SCAR is most likely going to win that one. And yes SCAR is expensive but we are ready to pay the price after all SCAR is for sure a 50 year investment with permission to export it's a great deal.

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## Arsalan

Tiger Awan said:


> If CZ has won the competition for x39, the only reason army will go for another platform for x51 is that CZ was miserable in x51


Not exactly. Actually there are these two completely different and independent tenders. One is for the replacement of Type 56 gun and CZ 7.62x39mm is selected in that one. The second one is for replacement of G3 and is for 7.62x51mm. It would have been the case if army decided to ditch the 7.62x51mm for good but it is highly unlikely and we are all set to continue using the 7.62x51mm guns. However, I have been told about one interest clause in that procurement proposal (though it was mentioned with a funny smile so may be was meant as a tease alone) that there is a possibility that the numbers can go up to MILLIONS (that is, both the tenders are joined and ONE GUN is selected, this was mentioned as a possibility). Also personally, I do not think PA will drop the 7.62x51mm altogether.



> Pakistan Army has a limited budget and there are a lot of things still unchecked in our shopping list, cant see why we will go for two different and expensive platforms (and yes CZ is expensive compared to our current riffles, SCAR is "VERY" expensive).


Very true. Budget and financial issues are always a problem and they are so for ANY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD. This cannot be denied. However the rifle replacement is not a one or two year project and will be spread to YEARS amount to decade or so. The costs will be distributed, these will be produced in house and the re-export and marketing is confirmed to be among the most important aspects in the business deal, the point where the final decision is now being made since both CZ and FN got the nod after trials for there respective guns.IN short, money is a problem but it is not something that wont be sorted. Still, anyone saying MONEY IS NO ISSUE AT ALL is stupid, as i said, MONEY IS ALWAYS A PROBLEM FOR EVERYONE.

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> From day one it was two tenders not one. One tender was for Type 56 replacement and one tender was for G3 replacement. In other words one tender was for x39 caliber Guns and one was for x51 caliber. BREN has won x 39 caliber one in x 51 as @Horus has pointed out it's competition between *SCAR* and Beretta and *SCAR *is most likely going to win that one. And yes *SCAR* is expensive but we are ready to pay the price after all *SCAR* is for sure a 50 year investment with permission to export it's a great deal.


SCAR was the best rifle in Trials 



Arsalan said:


> Not exactly. Actually there are these two completely different and independent tenders. One is for the replacement of Type 56 gun and CZ 7.62x39mm is selected in that one. The second one is for replacement of G3 and is for 7.62x51mm. It would have been the case if army decided to ditch the 7.62x51mm for good but it is highly unlikely and we are all set to continue using the 7.62x51mm guns. However, I have been told about one interest clause in that procurement proposal (though it was mentioned with a funny smile so may be was meant as a tease alone) that there is a possibility that the numbers can go up to MILLIONS (that is, both the tenders are joined and ONE GUN is selected, this was mentioned as a possibility). Also personally, I do not think PA will drop the 7.62x51mm altogether.
> 
> 
> Very true. Budget and financial issues are always a problem and they are so for ANY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD. This cannot be denied. However the rifle replacement is not a one or two year project and will be spread to YEARS amount to decade or so. The costs will be distributed, these will be produced in house and the re-export and marketing is confirmed to be among the most important aspects in the business deal, the point where the final decision is now being made since both CZ and FN got the nod after trials for there respective guns.IN short, money is a problem but it is not something that wont be sorted. Still, anyone saying MONEY IS NO ISSUE AT ALL is stupid, as i said, MONEY IS ALWAYS A PROBLEM FOR EVERYONE.


In my thinking and in my most humble respectful opinion it may be worth exploring the option of multicalibre rifle rather than adopting two weapons platform that require two different expensive deals to be signed along with difficulty of maintenance and production for two systems. Defence spending is going down globally not to mention how many militaries operate two rifles? not many unless its mission specific or calibre specific for the ops. india is a great example who have considered multicaliber option and tried developing one at home and got foreign companies involved like *CZ* who made *CZ 807 *for indian requirements. 

AR platform for example is being made multiclibre with change of upper or the barrel so you can use 300 blackout or 6.5 grendel with upper and magwell change. there are even gun makers who made AR that fires 556 and x39!! 

Bottom line is we need a rifle but economic constraints mean acquiring two rifles from two vendors is not feasible under current economic restraints.

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## Arsalan

Path-Finder said:


> In my thinking and in my most humble respectful opinion it may be worth exploring the option of multicalibre rifle rather than adopting two weapons platform that require two different expensive deals to be signed along with difficulty of maintenance and production for two systems. Defence spending is going down globally not to mention how many militaries operate two rifles? not many unless its mission specific or calibre specific for the ops. india is a great example who have considered multicaliber option and tried developing one at home and got foreign companies involved like *CZ* who made *CZ 807 *for indian requirements.
> 
> AR platform for example is being made multiclibre with change of upper or the barrel so you can use 300 blackout or 6.5 grendel with upper and magwell change. there are even gun makers who made AR that fires 556 and x39!!
> 
> Bottom line is we need a rifle but economic constraints mean acquiring two rifles from two vendors is not feasible under current economic restraints.


The multi-caliber could have been a smart option but was not very aggressively pursued from the start. We may see a limited application of that but not all guns will be the same. There are chances we opt two different guns, one in 7.62x39 and other in 7.62x51mm. (though i would love standardization and if only one need to be selected i will vote for 7.62x39mm but that might not be the case in real)


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## Path-Finder

Arsalan said:


> The multi-caliber could have been a smart option but was not very aggressively pursued from the start. We may see a limited application of that but not all guns will be the same. There are chances we opt two different guns, one in 7.62x39 and other in 7.62x51mm. (though i would love standardization and if only one need to be selected i will vote for 7.62x39mm but that might not be the case in real)


ahem the part in red.


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## Arsalan

Path-Finder said:


> ahem the part in red.


I know you are talkign about CZ and there history and a new possibility of a multi-caliber option for us as well but what i am saying is that from the very start these are being treated as two different parallel projects. So it is likely that it stays that way. However, as i mentioned, there is this interesting clause in the recommendation proposal increasing the number multi fold indicating that both the requirements have some possibility (though unlikely) of being joined and there fore the number going up multiple times. Now if that happens in a situation where PA opts for one single caliber, favoring one over another or it comes in shape of as multi-caliber option remains to be seen and your guess on this will be as good as mine.

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## Tiger Awan

Arsalan said:


> Not exactly. Actually there are these two completely different and independent tenders. One is for the replacement of Type 56 gun and CZ 7.62x39mm is selected in that one. The second one is for replacement of G3 and is for 7.62x51mm. It would have been the case if army decided to ditch the 7.62x51mm for good but it is highly unlikely and we are all set to continue using the 7.62x51mm guns. However, I have been told about one interest clause in that procurement proposal (though it was mentioned with a funny smile so may be was meant as a tease alone) that there is a possibility that the numbers can go up to MILLIONS (that is, both the tenders are joined and ONE GUN is selected, this was mentioned as a possibility). Also personally, I do not think PA will drop the 7.62x51mm altogether.
> 
> 
> Very true. Budget and financial issues are always a problem and they are so for ANY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD. This cannot be denied. However the rifle replacement is not a one or two year project and will be spread to YEARS amount to decade or so. The costs will be distributed, these will be produced in house and the re-export and marketing is confirmed to be among the most important aspects in the business deal, the point where the final decision is now being made since both CZ and FN got the nod after trials for there respective guns.IN short, money is a problem but it is not something that wont be sorted. Still, anyone saying MONEY IS NO ISSUE AT ALL is stupid, as i said, MONEY IS ALWAYS A PROBLEM FOR EVERYONE.



With same company providing guns for both x39 and x51 there will be parts that are same in both. No a lot of similarity because chances of a multi-caliber gun are low as you mentioned. But still same company, similarity in parts and manufacturing process and with the numbers of gun we are looking to procure cost will come down compared to riffles from 2 different companies where not only parts and manufacturing process will be different but order will be cut into ... lets say half.

So what I was saying ( and it is just my opinion ) is that if CZ is done deal in x39 it makes it the front runner in x51 too. Doesn't mean SCAR is out of the game but Army would surely want to deal with SCAR first. Only way it is out of the competition for x51 is if it has performed very bad or didn't perform well in extreme cold or desert (or something like that).

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## Arsalan

Tiger Awan said:


> With same company providing guns for both x39 and x51 there will be parts that are same in both. No a lot of similarity because chances of a multi-caliber gun are low as you mentioned. But still same company, similarity in parts and manufacturing process and with the numbers of gun we are looking to procure cost will come down compared to riffles from 2 different companies where not only parts and manufacturing process will be different but order will be cut into ... lets say half.
> 
> So what I was saying ( and it is just my opinion ) is that if CZ is done deal in x39 it makes it the front runner in x51 too. Doesn't mean SCAR is out of the game but Army would surely want to deal with SCAR first. Only way it is out of the competition for x51 is if it has performed very bad or didn't perform well in extreme cold or desert (or something like that).


Which CZ model are you proposing for 7.62 x 51mm option? Was it part of the trials?

I understand what you and others are saying and fully agree with it, however to break it all down;

PA seem to be looking for both x39 and x51 guns.

Though the requirement may merge at some later point it is HIGHLY UNLIKELY to happen and it seems certain that we will buy both x39 and x51, meaning two guns
A multi-caliber gun could have been an option but PA never look aggressive about pursuing that option, not so far at least.
Both guns from one source makes a lot of sense but what source? CZ did showed a gun chambered for 7.62x51mm at IDEAS 2016 to make things interesting. 
Now will the selection of CZ 807 in 7.62x39mm category be a reason enough to convince the PA top brass to consider the same supplier and a similar gun for there 7.62x51mm remains to be seen but as of now it is all *guess work* since officially CZ have ONLY been selected thus far and it is for 7.62x39mm. 



> Doesn't mean SCAR is out of the game but Army would surely want to deal with SCAR first. Only way it is out of the competition for x51 is if it has performed very bad or didn't perform well in extreme cold or desert (or something like that).


I think you meant to say that "army would surely want to deal with *CZ *first"  

And no, the CZ did excellent in the field trials and was given approval nod ALONG WITH FN SCAR.

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## Path-Finder

Tiger Awan said:


> With same company providing guns for both x39 and x51 there will be parts that are same in both. No a lot of similarity because chances of a multi-caliber gun are low as you mentioned. But still same company, similarity in parts and manufacturing process and with the numbers of gun we are looking to procure cost will come down compared to riffles from 2 different companies where not only parts and manufacturing process will be different but order will be cut into ... lets say half.
> 
> So what I was saying ( and it is just my opinion ) is that if CZ is done deal in x39 it makes it the front runner in x51 too. Doesn't mean SCAR is out of the game but Army would surely want to deal with SCAR first. Only way it is out of the competition for x51 is if it has performed very bad or didn't perform well in extreme cold or desert (or something like that).


SCAR was the best rifle in Trials 



Arsalan said:


> Which CZ model are you proposing for 7.62 x 51mm option? Was it part of the trials?
> 
> I understand what you and others are saying and fully agree with it, however to break it all down;
> 
> PA seem to be looking for both x39 and x51 guns.
> 
> Though the requirement may merge at some later point it is HIGHLY UNLIKELY to happen and it seems certain that we will buy both x39 and x51, meaning two guns
> A multi-caliber gun could have been an option but PA never look aggressive about pursuing that option, not so far at least.
> Both guns from one source makes a lot of sense but what source? CZ did showed a gun chambered for 7.62x51mm at IDEAS 2016 to make things interesting.
> Now will the selection of CZ 807 in 7.62x39mm category be a reason enough to convince the PA top brass to consider the same supplier and a similar gun for there 7.62x51mm remains to be seen but as of now it is all *guess work* since officially CZ have ONLY been selected thus far and it is for 7.62x39mm.
> 
> 
> I think you meant to say that "army would surely want to deal with *CZ *first"
> 
> And no, the CZ did excellent in the field trials and was given approval nod ALONG WITH FN SCAR.


@TheOccupiedKashmir has spoken to a CZ rep and he posted a pic of a target using CZ 807 chambered in x51from CZ booth at IDEAS 2016 which has really made our Hazrat very very cross. Hence my argument for uno rifle dos calibre's 






https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paki...competition-2016.426049/page-212#post-9119304

unfortunately as Hazrat will now go on a nut for SCAR...... CZ has NOT officially released any info on x51 chambering so only this is what we have at hand.

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## Arsalan

Path-Finder said:


> SCAR was the best rifle in Trials
> 
> 
> @TheOccupiedKashmir has spoken to a CZ rep and he posted a pic of a target using CZ 807 chambered in x51from CZ booth at IDEAS 2016 which has really made our Hazrat very very cross. Hence my argument for uno rifle dos calibre's
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paki...competition-2016.426049/page-212#post-9119304


True. I have seen this chart before as well but was not aware that this have been shared here and thus though better than mentioning this. 



> unfortunately as Hazrat will now go on a nut for SCAR...... CZ has NOT officially released any info on x51 chambering so only this is what we have at hand.


This is the thing!! 
CZ was in trials and came with there 7.62x39mm (which got selected). The 7.62x51mm was not part of the whole process as far as i know but still was put through its paces and all aspects checked and evaluated. Now will PA prefer this because they are already done with a x39 version from same supplier do makes sense but still remains a speculation. With CZ choosing not to say much about this x51 either, all we can do is:

Shut up and wait for something to actually happen and be confirmed (officially or reliably , not via those fking fb warriors)
Keep messing around and stating our wishes as FACTs backed by those same fking fb warriors!

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## Path-Finder

Arsalan said:


> True. I have seen this chart before as well but was not aware that this have been shared here and thus though better than mentioning this.
> 
> 
> This is the thing!!
> CZ was in trials and came with there 7.62x39mm (which got selected). The 7.62x51mm was not part of the whole process as far as i know but still was put through its paces and all aspects checked and evaluated. Now will PA prefer this because they are already done with a x39 version from same supplier do makes sense but still remains a speculation. With CZ choosing not to say much about this x51 either, all we can do is:
> 
> Shut up and wait for something to actually happen and be confirmed (officially or reliably , not via those fking fb warriors)
> Keep messing around and stating our wishes as FACTs backed by those same fking fb warriors!


May I suggest you avoid being in the SCAR haters group . That is the thing we have been debating for some time and until there is some form of official clarification from the manufacturers and PA the great rifle debate keeps on marching.

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## Arsalan

Path-Finder said:


> May I suggest you avoid being in the SCAR haters group . That is the thing we have been debating for some time and until there is some form of official clarification from the manufacturers and PA the great rifle debate keeps on marching.


ou know the funny thing is the SCAR lovers (Zarvan) takes me as SCAR hater and the SCAR haters ask me to keep away from the haters group citing me as a SCAR supporter.  

However the ground fact is:
SCAR and CZ BERN were selected in trials as the first choice and then there was another gun mentioned as a second choice, that, is a deal cannot be made with these first two options only then the procurement can think about negotiating with the third company. So both FN SCAR and CZ BERN are excellent platforms and both meet our requirement so no one have advantage over the other (since all those pros and cons have been evaluated by the professionals and only then they were both given the ok). Also everything else i said above is based on some facts, some discussion and some connecting the dots. I will AGAIN strongly suggest we shut up and let things play out and some official statement settle the issue once and for all.

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## Kompromat

CZ actually failed both trials, it exploded into pieces during 10k round mag dump test. AK-103 also failed. SCAR is on top on technical trials. 



my name is nobody said:


> CZ has won technical comparison over SCAR in 7,62x51. That is why FN is stagnant.

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## Solomon2

Horus said:


> CZ actually failed both trials, it exploded into pieces during 10k round mag dump test. AK-103 also failed. SCAR is on top on technical trials.


Pictures?


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## Kompromat

SCAR is the best option and its not as expensive when mass produced. If POF starts selling 5.56 Semi ones in the civilian market, they will make their money back. 



Arsalan said:


> @Horus I will still love to hear YOUR views in this despite what @Zarvan said. Whatever your views on this are. One reason we can figure out is that they failed in French deal, that will be playing on minds of all parties involved but that failure was mainly related to caliber! So why this pragmatic approach? Your views?



Army doesn't issue pictures of these trials. 



Solomon2 said:


> Pictures?

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## Solomon2

Horus said:


> Army doesn't issue pictures of these trials.


Why would they be classified? And doesn't the Army have to have something to show the legislature why its money should go into this and not that?


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## Gryphon

Horus said:


> CZ is chambered in 7.62x39, therefore a replacement for the Type-56 and AKs. SCAR H is chambered in 7.62x51 and it'll replace the G-3. The competition is between the SCAR H and ARX-200.



Unfortunately, all those comments of yours on this thread are nothing more than personal wishes. I have myself confirmed from a CZ official that CZ 807 (7.62x51mm) was tested by PA. And, I have named the official.

You were the one who was claiming AK-103 outperformed CZ 807 by a wide margin in x39 category. You dismissed the interview of CZ official Martin Šanda as 'media speculation'. 

http://www.armadninoviny.cz/utocna-puska-cz-bren-2-novy-pristup-nove-mysleni.html


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## Kompromat

Both rifles exploded in tests, both are out of the tender, AK-103 was deemed to be more reliable in other metrics but Russians refused to allow license production. CZ tried to sell Brens to FC Balochistan, they sent a referral to Pindi which was rejected. That means 7.62x39 category is an open field while SCAR-H and ARX-200 are shortlisted for 7.62x51 category, pending technology transfer, production, cost negotiations. It does not matter what CZ rep has to say, they are just salesmen trying to sell their stuff. 



TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Unfortunately, all those comments of yours on this thread are nothing more than personal wishes. I have myself confirmed from a CZ official that CZ 807 (7.62x51mm) was tested by PA. And, I have named the official.
> 
> You were the one who was claiming AK-103 outperformed CZ 807 by a wide margin in x39 category. You dismissed the interview of CZ official Martin Šanda as 'media speculation'.
> 
> http://www.armadninoviny.cz/utocna-puska-cz-bren-2-novy-pristup-nove-mysleni.html



You should just mind your own business. 



Solomon2 said:


> Why would they be classified? And doesn't the Army have to have something to show the legislature why its money should go into this and not that?

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## Zarvan

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Unfortunately, all those comments of yours on this thread are nothing more than personal wishes. I have myself confirmed from a CZ official that CZ 807 (7.62x51mm) was tested by PA. And, I have named the official.
> 
> You were the one who was claiming AK-103 outperformed CZ 807 by a wide margin in x39 category. You dismissed the interview of CZ official Martin Šanda as 'media speculation'.
> 
> http://www.armadninoviny.cz/utocna-puska-cz-bren-2-novy-pristup-nove-mysleni.html



Janab he has lot more sources than you he doesn't comment here because he knows the fact and just enjoys the talks going on here. Those who have been this on forum for really long time challenging Mr @Horus doesn't end well I have tried myself and he proved to be right every time some time I really feel that he works for some agency or at least working for establishment in some position. So I would only suggest you to trust Mr @Horus on things he is telling you 

@Path-Finder



Horus said:


> SCAR is the best option and its not as expensive when mass produced. If POF starts selling 5.56 Semi ones in the civilian market, they will make their money back.
> 
> 
> 
> Army doesn't issue pictures of these trials.


They should also sell 7.62 X 51 in fact they should military grade version I would love to buy hundreds of them

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## Kompromat

500 SCAR-L for SSW replacing FN-2000. x51 tender is for 800,000 rifles with full tot and subsequent export rights after the local Military and LEA demands have been satisfied. SBR 7.62x39 whichever one is selected will also replace the MP-5s. Another tender upcoming is the replacement of 7.62x51 machine guns and STD issue side arm. I think Army is going to issue sidearms to soldiers as well in the future.



Zarvan said:


> Janab he has lot more sources than you he doesn't comment here because he knows the fact and just enjoys the talks going on here. Those who have been this on forum for really long time challenging Mr @Horus doesn't end well I have tried myself and he proved to be right every time some time I really feel that he works for some agency or at least working for establishment in some position. So I would only suggest you to trust Mr @Horus on things he is telling you
> 
> @Path-Finder
> 
> 
> They should also sell 7.62 X 51 in fact they should military grade version I would love to buy hundreds of them

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## Army research

Horus said:


> 500 SCAR-L for SSW replacing FN-2000. x51 tender is for 800,000 rifles with full tot and subsequent export rights after the local Military and LEA demands have been satisfied. SBR 7.62x39 whichever one is selected will also replace the MP-5s. Another tender upcoming is the replacement of 7.62x51 machine guns and STD issue side arm. I think Army is going to issue sidearms to soldiers as well in the future.


Approximate time till induction begins of whatever is selected ? 1-2 years? 3?

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## Zarvan

Army research said:


> Approximate time till induction begins of whatever is selected ? 1-2 years? 3?


Few orders have been already placed like the ones Horus mentioned

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## Kompromat

Im hearing a POF is going to get new tooling and if the tender is approved this year, it will begin production next year and it might take a decade to fulfill the tender requirements. 



Army research said:


> Approximate time till induction begins of whatever is selected ? 1-2 years? 3?

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## 544_delta

supposing that SCAR system is selected... will it then come with all the configurations like L,H, DMR and squad automatic weapon config?


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## Kompromat

Right now its just SCAR H. 



544_delta said:


> supposing that SCAR system is selected... will it then come with all the configurations like L,H, DMR and squad automatic weapon config?

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## Zarvan

Horus said:


> Right now its just SCAR H.


Right now SCAR H but we should opt for entire series

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> I didn't forced him I am also surprised on his so many tweets here. I will also like to know what just happened out of no where he has become so active


haha Hazrat your cheerleading and praises is enough. But anyway the drama must continue!



Zarvan said:


> *They should also sell 7.62 X 51 in fact they should military grade version I would love to buy hundreds of them*

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## 544_delta

Zarvan said:


> Right now SCAR H but we should opt for entire series


i thought it would be that way by default...like the whole family would be inducted to supplement a squad's fire power in different roles...it would have been more prudent to have DMR, SAW, CQB configs from a same family of guns... would have kept the supply, maintenance issues simple IMHO

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## Hassan Guy

Which rifle was selected.


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## Arsalan

Horus said:


> SCAR is the best option and its not as expensive when mass produced. If POF starts selling 5.56 Semi ones in the civilian market, they will make their money back.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Army doesn't issue pictures of these trials.


Agreed with. The gun have great potential to be marketed further and therefore bring in revenue as well as ensure sustained production. The fact that we will have a requirment of hundred of thousands of guns help as well. I do not think anyone can argue about the fact that FN SCAR is a great option. 

Anyway, my actualy question was about your views on things getting a bit quite. We know that after CZ was selected for 7.62x39mm (and some issues remain to be ironed out before we see actual cobtracts signed and work begin) and offered the x51mm variant things were put on hold for a moment with the higher authorities giving it all a second thought. We cannot disagree that dealing with a single company have its perks( considering that they are have a complete range including those handguns as well makes it even more lucrative). This is what i wanted to have your views on, are there reasons for the slowed down process other than second thoughts. 
on other side, with SCAR at an advantage in that 7.62x51mm tender (which is massive by the way and far out numbers x39) have the advantage in a proposed x51mm machine gun. So may be they are making PA think again about the decision about CZ. Lot of things happening but it is a bit too complex now. 

As for the gun issues, i myself have seen the CZ recomendation letter, a copy of which ended up at POF ( from where i saw)


To conclude my side of the story here, i will again recommend to every member that things are happening but it is best to stop presenting our findings as facts. There are reasons things are not being said with certainity, lets not challenge the sanity of those who have decided to play it this way. PLEASE. 




Horus said:


> Im hearing a POF is going to get new tooling and if the tender is approved this year, it will begin production next year and it might take a decade to fulfill the tender requirements.


It is getting approval bar any idiocity by the ministry and civil leadership. Have you been able to look at thise new equipment under modernization plan? IMPRESSIVE!! POF will be on par with the absolute best and it cover both quality and quantity. Clearly "exports" are being kept in mind here.

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## Path-Finder

Arsalan said:


> Agreed with. The gun have great potential to be marketed further and therefore bring in revenue as well as ensure sustained production. The fact that we will have a requirment of hundred of thousands of guns help as well. I do not think anyone can argue about the fact that FN SCAR is a great option.
> 
> Anyway, my actualy question was about your views on things getting a bit quite. We know that after CZ was selected for 7.62x39mm (and some issues remain to be ironed out before we see actual cobtracts signed and work begin) and offered the x51mm variant things were put on hold for a moment with the higher authorities giving it all a second thought. We cannot disagree that dealing with a single company have its perks( considering that they are have a complete range including those handguns as well makes it even more lucrative). This is what i wanted to have your views on, are there reasons for the slowed down process other than second thoughts.
> on other side, with SCAR at an advantage in that 7.62x51mm tender (which is massive by the way and far out numbers x39) have the advantage in a proposed x51mm machine gun. So may be they are making PA think again about the decision about CZ. Lot of things happening but it is a bit too complex now.
> 
> As for the gun issues, i myself have seen the CZ recomendation letter, a copy of which ended up at POF ( from where i saw)
> 
> 
> To conclude my side of the story here, i will again recommend to every member that things are happening but it is best to stop presenting our findings as facts. There are reasons things are not being said with certainity, lets not challenge the sanity of those who have decided to play it this way. PLEASE.
> 
> 
> 
> It is getting approval bar any idiocity by the ministry and civil leadership. Have you been able to look at thise new equipment under modernization plan? IMPRESSIVE!! POF will be on par with the absolute best and it cover both quality and quantity. Clearly "exports" are being kept in mind here.


I will take everything with a pinch of salt and keep supporting CZ as it irritates Hazrat. You saw the recommendation for CZ?


----------



## Kompromat

We're getting a crap load of new CNC Machinery. @Arsalan

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## Gryphon

Horus said:


> We're getting a crap load of new CNC Machinery. @Arsalan



You mean to say CZ 807 failed in trials (for 7.62x39mm) and exploded (in case of x51)?


----------



## Zarvan

Horus said:


> We're getting a crap load of new CNC Machinery. @Arsalan


Good news FN SCAR has been selected by P.A . Manuals have been issued to officers. Will take 4 to 5 years to be inducted. 

Friend just posted it your thoughts @Horus

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Good news FN SCAR has been selected by P.A . Manuals have been issued to officers. Will take 4 to 5 years to be inducted.
> 
> Friend just posted it your thoughts @Horus


Oh is the CNC machines from FN? are you sure about that Hazrat?


----------



## MystryMan

Zarvan said:


> Good news FN SCAR has been selected by P.A . Manuals have been issued to officers. Will take 4 to 5 years to be inducted.
> 
> Friend just posted it your thoughts @Horus


Any official announcement?


----------



## Kompromat

It exploded during x39 10000 ammo dump trials, AK-103 also exploded. AK scored better overall except metallurgy and they didn't want to give us the license production. CZ offered license production but failed tests. It scored better on accuracy as opposed to the AK. 



TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> You mean to say CZ 807 failed in trials (for 7.62x39mm) and exploded (in case of x51)?

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## Solomon2

Horus said:


> You should just mind your own business.


Your point being that the less said about the Pakistani military not being accountable to the civilian government, the better?



Horus said:


> It exploded during x39 10000 ammo dump trials, AK-103 also exploded -


Did other nations experience the same issues when they tested these products? If not, what makes Pakistan's testing different?


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## Arsalan

Horus said:


> We're getting a crap load of new CNC Machinery. @Arsalan


True. If those demand and plan sheets and lists are anything to go by POF will become, as i said, on par with the very best when it comes to firearm manufacturing. I had to look up for most of those things to understand what they are. A mechanical engineer father and a few electrical engineer friends help as well. 
BTW, taking about uogradation of small weapons manufacturing facility from hand guns to assault/battle rifles as well as machine guns etc, there are some plans (not on paper as yet as far as i am aware) for similar modrenization in other factories at POF. May see improvement in those bigger rounds for artillery and tanks and other ammunition as well as modern chemical processing etc. This however is for future.



Path-Finder said:


> I will take everything with a pinch of salt and keep supporting CZ as it irritates Hazrat. You saw the recommendation for CZ?


Lolz
Most of these 3706 posts are just about personal favourites and wish lists anyway so you can also keep aupporting CZ. In fact, i like that gun as well. However i will say that both FN SCAR and CZ BERN meet our requirments and have ALWYAS BEEN SAYING that it is now all about business proposal. Whichever offers more in a deal!!  
And yes, i did saw that letter myself. Told here exactly what i saw there and what it meant for the trials.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Horus said:


> 500 SCAR-L for SSW replacing FN-2000. x51 tender is for 800,000 rifles with full tot and subsequent export rights after the local Military and LEA demands have been satisfied. SBR 7.62x39 whichever one is selected will also replace the MP-5s. Another tender upcoming is the replacement of 7.62x51 machine guns and STD issue side arm. I think Army is going to issue sidearms to soldiers as well in the future.


Would standard issue side-arms be limited to just handguns ... or could we see PDWs?


----------



## Path-Finder

Arsalan said:


> True. If those demand and plan sheets and lists are anything to go by POF will become, as i said, on par with the very best when it comes to firearm manufacturing. I had to look up for most of those things to understand what they are. A mechanical engineer father and a few electrical engineer friends help as well.
> BTW, taking about uogradation of small weapons manufacturing facility from hand guns to assault/battle rifles as well as machine guns etc, there are some plans (not on paper as yet as far as i am aware) for similar modrenization in other factories at POF. May see improvement in those bigger rounds for artillery and tanks and other ammunition as well as modern chemical processing etc. This however is for future.
> 
> 
> Lolz
> Most of these 3706 posts are just about personal favourites and wish lists anyway so you can also keep aupporting CZ. In fact, i like that gun as well. However i will say that both FN SCAR and CZ BERN meet our requirments and have ALWYAS BEEN SAYING that it is now all about business proposal. Whichever offers more in a deal!!
> And yes, i did saw that letter myself. Told here exactly what i saw there and what it meant for the trials.


absolutely our Hazrat had his few minutes of cheerleading . I don't take any info seriously but cannot understand why someone takes it like its their wife has been disrespected. Now Horus had said last year that CZ failed and AK did better and today Both guns blew up!!! who do you believe? So i will push for CZ as it's an irritant as you saw after i posted the video of CZ in Balochistan the SCAR clan came out guns blazing!



TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> You mean to say CZ 807 failed in trials (for 7.62x39mm) and exploded (in case of x51)?


Can you ask your contact?

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## Rafi

CZ is still the overwhelming favourite. SCAR price and terms are prohibitive for the PA.

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## mingle

Rafi said:


> CZ is still the overwhelming favourite. SCAR price and terms are prohibitive for the PA.


Rafi Sb dont break Zarvans heart .

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## Path-Finder

Rafi said:


> CZ is still the overwhelming favourite. SCAR price and terms are prohibitive for the PA.


so much confusion! what are your thoughts on Balochistan police and CZ?


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## Zarvan

Rafi said:


> CZ is still the overwhelming favourite. SCAR price and terms are prohibitive for the PA.


SCAR has won Sir Army Officers are being told that SCAR is there future Gun


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> SCAR has won Sir Army Officers are being told that SCAR is there future Gun


can you back it up?


----------



## Zarvan

Q


Path-Finder said:


> can you back it up?


Manual being issued is correct news and has asked friends to get picture of those manuals


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Q
> 
> Manual being issued is correct news and has asked friends to get picture of those manuals


lets see!


----------



## Rafi

Path-Finder said:


> so much confusion! what are your thoughts on Balochistan police and CZ?



When PA Officers are there with the CZ people. You can tell which way the wind is blowing.

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## Zarvan

Rafi said:


> When PA Officers are there with the CZ people. You can tell which way the wind is blowing.


Sir I know about that but Army for itself has went ahead with SCAR in X 51 category. CZ was not in competition for x 51 as far as x 39 caliber is concerned decision not taken yet. 

@Horus


----------



## Thorough Pro

Your friend? 



Zarvan said:


> Good news FN SCAR has been selected by P.A . Manuals have been issued to officers. Will take 4 to 5 years to be inducted.
> 
> *Friend just posted it* your thoughts @Horus



Extreme temperatures ranging from +50 Celsius to -40 Celsius, as mentioned it exploded during 10k round dump (probably without cleaning), which was probably an extreme test for measuring endurance / life 



Solomon2 said:


> Your point being that the less said about the Pakistani military not being accountable to the civilian government, the better?
> 
> Did other nations experience the same issues when they tested these products? If not, what makes Pakistan's testing different?


----------



## Zarvan

Thorough Pro said:


> Your friend?
> 
> 
> 
> Extreme temperatures ranging from +50 Celsius to -40 Celsius, as mentioned it exploded during 10k round dump (probably without cleaning), which was probably an extreme test for measuring endurance / life


Pakistan goes to an extreme level to test Rifles. Now as for x 51 category SCAR is done deal in x 39 if we go ahead with BREN it would be changed a lot before we go for it because in current form we are not going to accept it by the FN is also trying to come up with x 39 version.


----------



## Gryphon



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## TaimiKhan

It seems CZ is seriously trying to make inroads in our armed & civil armed forces with their weapon systems. Good to see that.

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## Kompromat

9mm Pistols like the US Army distributes. 



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Would standard issue side-arms be limited to just handguns ... or could we see PDWs?



FC's acquisition is to be approved by the GHQ, Balochistan Police by MOI Balochistan. 



TaimiKhan said:


> It seems CZ is seriously trying to make inroads in our armed & civil armed forces with their weapon systems. Good to see that.

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## Zarvan

Horus said:


> 9mm Pistols like the US Army distributes.
> 
> 
> 
> FC's acquisition is to be approved by the GHQ, Balochistan Police by MOI Balochistan.


So is FC also going for BREN or some other Rifle ??????????


----------



## TaimiKhan

Zarvan said:


> So is FC also going for BREN or some other Rifle ??????????



Whatever weapon will replace AK-47s, 99.99% probability is that it will replace it with all the forces whether FC, Rangers, Police or someone else. Without economies of scale the project will not meet its cost. 

And the recent pics of CZ getting tested by Police guys means that it has passed the Army trials or decision has been taken for its induction and being shown to the Police guys just to let them know that what they will be getting.

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## Gryphon

Horus said:


> 9mm Pistols like the US Army distributes.



Four years ago









Path-Finder said:


> Can you ask your contact?



Wait for some days.

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Actually it failed the endurance test and yes Army is keeping any eye on what Police Gets. As for Fc Baluchistan I knew the answer just wanted Horus to reveal and no FC Baluchistan is not going for BREN.


Ahh how do you know that? You are coming up with a lot of theories can you back them up.


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Ahh how do you know that? You are coming up with a lot of theories can you back them up.


I know that because I found about it from where that I won't tell


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> I know that because I found about it from where that I won't tell


In another words myths & folklore


----------



## Gryphon

*MeoRed*

*The MeoRed, with its compact and durable design makes an ideal sight for AR platforms, shotguns and handguns.*

*The illumination is activated by pushing the control button located on the front of the sight and turns off automatically after 3 hours.*

The MeoRed is available with either a 3 MOA or 5 MOA red dot. 

Powered by a single CR 2032 battery for up to 1000 hours of operating time, the MeoRed also features a battery compartment on the right side of the sight that slides out for easy access. The unit also has a low battery indicator dot that signals when the battery is running low.

Meopta engineers designed the MeoRed to significantly increase shooter accuracy and speed in a variety of situations such as 3-gun competition, close range hunting, personal defense and L/E applications, and its miniature profile also makes it ideal for mounting to a primary riflescope for situations that require rapid change from distant to close quarter shots.


*Key Features*

*Lens:* A well-protected glass lens provides a virtually parallax-free sight picture for eyes-wide-open target acquisition.

*Coatings:* Proprietary ion assisted lens coatings. MeoBright coating delivers incredibly bright and sharp images across the field of view. MeoShield coating protects lens surface from abrasions and scratches. 

*Illumination:* Option of 3 MOA or 5 MOA dot sizes. Powered by a single CR 2032 battery for up to 1000 hours of operating time. Auto off function and intelligent energy monitoring preserves battery life by automatically turning the illumination off after three hours of continuous operation if the function button has not been touched.

*Adjustment:* 60 MOA range of windage and 60 MOA range of elevation allows the shooter to easily dial in target adjustments and makes zero simple to change and maintain.

*Construction:* Rugged body is machined from a solid block of aircraft grade aluminum alloy and is built to withstand extreme conditions and is fully waterproof and shockproof. Matte black anodized surface is non-reflective and highly durable. Compact size of only 47,5 x 27 x 26 mms and weighs 30g.











http://www.meopta.com/en/meored/


----------



## Kompromat

B-6 has been disturbed in small numbers to the Army. It hasn't performed as expected so Army is expected to launch a new tender. Plus B-6 has only been issued to Commissioned Officers, but now the Army is considering a STD issue side-arm to all soldiers.



TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Four years ago
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wait for some days.

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## Gryphon

Horus said:


> B-6 has been disturbed in small numbers to the Army. It hasn't performed as expected so Army is expected to launch a new tender. Plus B-6 has only been issued to Commissioned Officers, but now the Army is considering a STD issue side-arm to all soldiers.



Large no. of Sarsilmaz B6 pistols were imported / assembled by a local company. The civilian reviews were bad. Didn't army test it before making any purchase ? 

And what about Minimi LMG for regular infantry?


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> In another words myths & folklore


No facts and your denial won't change them



Horus said:


> B-6 has been disturbed in small numbers to the Army. It hasn't performed as expected so Army is expected to launch a new tender. Plus B-6 has only been issued to Commissioned Officers, but now the Army is considering a STD issue side-arm to all soldiers.


By the way I know one Major he is quite happy with B-6


----------



## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> No facts and your denial won't change them


And you cant back it up either!


----------



## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> And you cant back it up either!


I can but now allowed the moment permission is given I would share the news. Army officers are getting manuals of SCAR and other products offered by FN. SCAR is done deal for replacing X 51 Caliber the question is about X 39 caliber tender. If BREN has failed tests than we would have to do massive changes in it to suit our environment or there are chances we may invite few more X 39 Caliber Rifles and test all X39 again. The question is only x 39 tender.

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## El Fuego

FN SCAR has serious issues in hot enviroment and FN did nothing to improve it. if your tests are tough as you say you would find this out. So if your army has selected this flawed weapon than something definitely smells there


----------



## Path-Finder

El Fuego said:


> FN SCAR has serious issues in hot enviroment and FN did nothing to improve it. if your tests are tough as you say you would find this out. So if your army has selected this flawed weapon than something definitely smells there


friend can you elaborate further on how you know this? Thanks.


----------



## Kompromat

* B-6 units will remain in service. New Pistol will follow up. Could be a Berretta or CZ. 

* 7.62x51 LMG tender has a few potentials, MG-4, MKEK LMG or Minimi in .308

* hk is not allowed to sell to Pakistan due to the Govt policy, that leaves Minimi to be the predominant choice. Once the tender is issued, all competitors will be invited and the winner will transfer production to Pakistan. 




TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Large no. of Sarsilmaz B6 pistols were imported / assembled by a local company. The civilian reviews were bad. Didn't army test it before making any purchase ?
> 
> And what about Minimi LMG for regular infantry?

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## Vergennes

If Pakistan really choose the FN Scar,then congrats. @Zarvan

If that is not the case,an ambulance has just departed to Pakistan and will remain in stand-by. Better to be prepared for every situations. @Path-Finder



Spoiler

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## Kompromat

SCAR passed hot'n high tests exceeding 50°c.








El Fuego said:


> FN SCAR has serious issues in hot enviroment and FN did nothing to improve it. if your tests are tough as you say you would find this out. So if your army has selected this flawed weapon than something definitely smells there

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## Path-Finder

Vergennes said:


> If Pakistan really choose the FN Scar,then congrats. @Zarvan
> 
> If that is not the case,an ambulance has just departed to Pakistan and will remain in stand-by. Better to be prepared for every situations. @Path-Finder
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 388648
> 
> View attachment 388649


Journey from Marseilles to Pakistan is a long one will it arrive in time?

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## El Fuego

We had few FN SCAR 7,62x51 in our inventory and we did lot of training with Peruian Army which has a larger number of these weapons. As our Peruian coleagues had more experience they have same experience: weapon is dangerous in hot areas as it can fire chambered bullet itself. And than there were reports of rifles exploding during army trials, buffer breaking etc. whole scandal about that in Peru.

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## Zarvan

El Fuego said:


> FN SCAR has serious issues in hot enviroment and FN did nothing to improve it. if your tests are tough as you say you would find this out. So if your army has selected this flawed weapon than something definitely smells there


We tested SCAR H mainly and it had no issues in fact it passed all tests with flying colors


----------



## Vergennes

Path-Finder said:


> Journey from Marseilles to Pakistan is a long one will it arrive in time?



It will surely arrive in time,but we nicely ask @Horus not to kill @Zarvan before our ambulance is prepared.

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## Path-Finder

El Fuego said:


> We had few FN SCAR 7,62x51 in our inventory and we did lot of training with Peruian Army which has a larger number of these weapons. As our Peruian coleagues had more experience they have same experience: weapon is dangerous in hot areas as it can fire chambered bullet itself. And than there were reports of rifles exploding during army trials, buffer breaking etc. whole scandal about that in Peru.


Did a quick search and found this interesting comment on it. BUT SCAR performed the best in trials 
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2013/09/19/peru-fn-scar-rifle-controversy/

_Peruvian here. This is what I've heard from people related to this matter: Officers that wrote negative feedbacks about these rifles have been removed & replaced by others who wrote new reviews; apparently there's a HUGE bribe scam behind this that involves high-ranking military officers and politicians.
Test rifles were deployed to local jungle combat theater against drug dealers/maoist terrorists; chopper (Mi-8?) carrying troops was shot down while unloading troops and none of the SCARs (Apparently 6 or so) survived the crash; Galils were heavily damaged too but kept firing and were used by wounded survivors to repeal the ambush.
Some people tried without success to upgrade currently available weapons, mainly FALs with modern hardware; apparently they were seen as a menace to many interests.

Unless deployed to specialized units, average Peruvian soldier could break an AK (I've seen them do it) in no time.

Currently our armed forces are equipped with the following MBRs: refurbished N. Korean AKMs (Cops; little remaining ammo for them; among armed forces runs the rumor that it's a crime against humanity to use 7.62x39mm.), HK G-3s (Cops; bought in the early '80s; stored after the AKs arrived in the late '80s but now redeployed and used with Chinese-made 7.62NATO ammo issued by the Army), AK-47s (Air Force), 5.56 Galils (Army, Navy and maybe Air Force too), FALs (Both FN and Argentinian-made; Army, Air Force and Navy) and a hodgepodge of assorted guns that include various M-16/AR style rifles (Usually cops fighting in the jungle theater), Daewoos (Navy) and 5.56 HKs (91? 93?; used by cops & Navy).

Holded a SCAR some time ago. Wouldn't use it as a doorstop, less as a weapon in the terrible climate, geographical and logistical nightmare our poor troops have to endure._

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## The Sandman

Path-Finder said:


> Did a quick search and found this interesting comment on it. BUT SCAR performed the best in trials
> http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2013/09/19/peru-fn-scar-rifle-controversy/
> 
> _Peruvian here. This is what I've heard from people related to this matter: Officers that wrote negative feedbacks about these rifles have been removed & replaced by others who wrote new reviews; apparently there's a HUGE bribe scam behind this that involves high-ranking military officers and politicians.
> Test rifles were deployed to local jungle combat theater against drug dealers/maoist terrorists; chopper (Mi-8?) carrying troops was shot down while unloading troops and none of the SCARs (Apparently 6 or so) survived the crash; Galils were heavily damaged too but kept firing and were used by wounded survivors to repeal the ambush.
> Some people tried without success to upgrade currently available weapons, mainly FALs with modern hardware; apparently they were seen as a menace to many interests.
> 
> Unless deployed to specialized units, average Peruvian soldier could break an AK (I've seen them do it) in no time.
> 
> Currently our armed forces are equipped with the following MBRs: refurbished N. Korean AKMs (Cops; little remaining ammo for them; among armed forces runs the rumor that it's a crime against humanity to use 7.62x39mm.), HK G-3s (Cops; bought in the early '80s; stored after the AKs arrived in the late '80s but now redeployed and used with Chinese-made 7.62NATO ammo issued by the Army), AK-47s (Air Force), 5.56 Galils (Army, Navy and maybe Air Force too), FALs (Both FN and Argentinian-made; Army, Air Force and Navy) and a hodgepodge of assorted guns that include various M-16/AR style rifles (Usually cops fighting in the jungle theater), Daewoos (Navy) and 5.56 HKs (91? 93?; used by cops & Navy).
> 
> Holded a SCAR some time ago. Wouldn't use it as a doorstop, less as a weapon in the terrible climate, geographical and logistical nightmare our poor troops have to endure._


I really hope Pak Army is aware of this scandal.


El Fuego said:


> We had few FN SCAR 7,62x51 in our inventory and we did lot of training with Peruian Army which has a larger number of these weapons. As our Peruian coleagues had more experience they have same experience: weapon is dangerous in hot areas as it can fire chambered bullet itself. And than there were reports of rifles exploding during army trials, buffer breaking etc. whole scandal about that in Peru.


Thanks for sharing it with us here.
@Arsalan so CZ bern will be the final option than? and when you think they will finalize on which rifle they're going for?


Vergennes said:


> If Pakistan really choose the FN Scar,then congrats. @Zarvan
> 
> If that is not the case,an ambulance has just departed to Pakistan and will remain in stand-by. Better to be prepared for every situations. @Path-Finder
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 388648
> 
> View attachment 388649

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## Zarvan

The Sandman said:


> I really hope Pak Army is aware of this scandal.
> 
> Thanks for sharing it with us here.
> @Arsalan so CZ bern will be the final option than? and when you think they will finalize on which rifle they're going for?


Final option is SCAR in x 51 category and in x 39 category decision is not made yet specially because even BREN failed at endurance test.

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## Gryphon

CZ, FN and Beretta were shortlisted last year. That means they were satisfactory in the tests.

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Final option is SCAR in x 51 category and in x 39 category decision is not made yet specially because even BREN failed at endurance test.


how did it fail endurance test?


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## my name is nobody

Meanwhile in France: French special forces (GIGN) has selected new rifle to replace HK 416..guess what?


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## Talwar e Pakistan

El Fuego said:


> We had few FN SCAR 7,62x51 in our inventory and we did lot of training with Peruian Army which has a larger number of these weapons. As our Peruian coleagues had more experience they have same experience: weapon is dangerous in hot areas as it can fire chambered bullet itself. And than there were reports of rifles exploding during army trials, buffer breaking etc. whole scandal about that in Peru.


I guess they fixed it


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> how did it fail endurance test?


It blasted so did AK-103


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## El Fuego

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> I guess they fixed it


No they didn´t, customer care is unknown to FN. It is sipmle bussiness, they will not do anything to this rifle it is dead project. I wonder why you are so loving it, even US have shelved it back to stores. Nobody is buying it for years..

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## Mughal-Prince

El Fuego said:


> No they didn´t, customer care is unknown to FN. It is sipmle bussiness, they will not do anything to this rifle it is dead project. I wonder why you are so loving it, even US have shelved it back to stores. Nobody is buying it for years..



So it means Beretta is holding grounds  I voted for

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## Zarvan

Mughal-Prince said:


> So it means Beretta is holding grounds  I voted for


No they are not holding ground not even close. X 51 has been won by SCAR the question is about x 39


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## Mughal-Prince

Zarvan said:


> No they are not holding ground not even close. X 51 has been won by SCAR the question is about x 39



And what about the scandal and news from Peruvian side and every one knows about their lackluster customer service ?? I am astonished how this makes to the final while having these cases when a country like USA have shelved their SCAR's far ago. They must have made some changes.

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## Zarvan

Mughal-Prince said:


> And what about the scandal and news from Peruvian side and every one knows about their lackluster customer service ?? I am astonished how this makes to the final while having these cases when a country like USA have shelved their SCAR's far ago. They must have made some changes.


We tested the rifle and it passed all of our tests with flying colors so we give a dam about Peruvian scandal


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## Mughal-Prince

Zarvan said:


> We tested the rifle and it passed all of our tests with flying colors so we give a dam about Peruvian scandal


Nahhh thats an ignorant comment from you Zarvan. Its about changing the whole battlefield scenario either in favour or against and that makes us gives all the damns for anything ever happen to whatever we are looking for our defense forces.

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## Path-Finder

El Fuego said:


> No they didn´t, customer care is unknown to FN. It is sipmle bussiness, they will not do anything to this rifle it is dead project. I wonder why you are so loving it, even US have shelved it back to stores. Nobody is buying it for years..


you are ex military and have fired the weapon? What are your thoughts on it? Mucho Gracias. 



Zarvan said:


> It blasted so did AK-103


Hazrat @Zarvan don't be rudimentary and give proof other than quoting horus!!



Zarvan said:


> We tested the rifle and it passed all of our tests with flying colors so we give a dam about Peruvian scandal


Hazrat @Zarvan again you didn't test the rifle nor did you even hold it BUT your sources are like Qatari letter and nothing more. Still SCAR performed best in Trials


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## Zarvan

Mughal-Prince said:


> Nahhh thats an ignorant comment from you Zarvan. Its about changing the whole battlefield scenario either in favour or against and that makes us gives all the damns for anything ever happen to whatever we are looking for our defense forces.


Dude yes and that would change only if we would select a rifle which passes our tests and SCAR H did passed tests so and SCAR H is most likely going to replace G3. The question is now which Rifle will replace Type 56 or in other words x 39 turns out that every rifle in this category failed the test.



Path-Finder said:


> you are ex military and have fired the weapon? What are your thoughts on it? Mucho Gracias.
> 
> 
> Hazrat @Zarvan don't be rudimentary and give proof other than quoting horus!!
> 
> 
> Hazrat @Zarvan again you didn't test the rifle nor did you even hold it BUT your sources are like Qatari letter and nothing more. Still SCAR performed best in Trials


I don't need to fire the rifle myself to know what happened at the trials and what is happening now. You need good sources which I have so you can keep laughing and posting these joker things but reality is SCAR H won the trial to replace G3 and X 39 is still under question which Rifle would come in that category. 

@Horus

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Dude yes and that would change only if we would select a rifle which passes our tests and SCAR H did passed tests so and SCAR H is most likely going to replace G3. The question is now which Rifle will replace Type 56 or in other words x 39 turns out that every rifle in this category failed the test.
> 
> 
> I don't need to fire the rifle myself to know what happened at the trials and what is happening now. You need good sources which I have so you can keep laughing and posting these joker things but reality is SCAR H won the trial to replace G3 and X 39 is still under question which Rifle would come in that category.
> 
> @Horus


Hazrat @Zarvan it ain't over till the fat lady sings! But you have the right to cheerlead for SCAR but don't be noora about it give saboot! not bongian like Qatari letter!!!


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## Solomon2

Thorough Pro said:


> Extreme temperatures ranging from +50 Celsius to -40 Celsius, as mentioned it exploded during 10k round dump (probably without cleaning), which was probably an extreme test for measuring endurance / life


Are all the candidate weapons and ammo tested the same way?


----------



## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat @Zarvan it ain't over till the fat lady sings! But you have the right to cheerlead for SCAR but don't be noora about it give saboot! not bongian like Qatari letter!!!


What fat lady you are talking about ? As for trials Army officers are being now slowly told that SCAR would replace G3 and many have received its manual and also of other products of FN. This wasn't given them for no reason neither of any other Rifle it's given only of SCAR so message he been sent and I know about this because at IDEX 2017 FN Herstal was given green signal by our guys. Your Beretta failed accuracy tests and there was no other rifle.

From last twenty posts of yours I am noticing you are mixing two things. For your sake I am repeating once again that there were two tenders one to replace G3 and one to replace Type 56. Berreta and SCAR were in final round for replacing G3 not Type 56 and BREN and AK-103 were competing to replace Type 56. SCAR most likely in the winner in X 51 or let say G3 category but no decision has been taken in x 39 or let say Type 56 category. And yes in x 39 category now SCAR is also trying to jump in but they will succeed or not that I don't know.



Solomon2 said:


> Are all the candidate weapons and ammo tested the same way?


Yes every weapon and ammo is tested exactly the same way and has to go through exactly same tests. Pakistan and India are fighting each other in extreme temperatures from -50C to 50 C and hardly any other country is doing this so we have to take weapons to extreme tests and that is why majority fail.

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## fitpOsitive

Zarvan said:


> Yes every weapon and ammo is tested exactly the same way and has to go through exactly same tests. Pakistan and India are fighting each other in extreme temperatures from -50C to 50 C and hardly any other country is doing this so we have to take weapons to extreme tests and that is why majority fail.


This is indeed very strong statement and I can feel its gravity as well as consequences for the rifle selected.



my name is nobody said:


> Meanwhile in France: French special forces (GIGN) has selected new rifle to replace HK 416..guess what?


Which one?

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> What fat lady you are talking about ? As for trials Army officers are being now slowly told that SCAR would replace G3 and many have received its manual and also of other products of FN. This wasn't given them for no reason neither of any other Rifle it's given only of SCAR so message he been sent and I know about this because at IDEX 2017 FN Herstal was given green signal by our guys. Your Beretta failed accuracy tests and there was no other rifle.
> 
> From last twenty posts of yours I am noticing you are mixing two things. For your sake I am repeating once again that there were two tenders one to replace G3 and one to replace Type 56. Berreta and SCAR were in final round for replacing G3 not Type 56 and BREN and AK-103 were competing to replace Type 56. SCAR most likely in the winner in X 51 or let say G3 category but no decision has been taken in x 39 or let say Type 56 category. And yes in x 39 category now SCAR is also trying to jump in but they will succeed or not that I don't know.
> 
> 
> Yes every weapon and ammo is tested exactly the same way and has to go through exactly same tests. Pakistan and India are fighting each other in extreme temperatures from -50C to 50 C and hardly any other country is doing this so we have to take weapons to extreme tests and that is why majority fail.



I am asking for a credible source not something like I know people on social media! You are making some very tall claims and then hide behind horus and laugh in your secret laughing group. Give credible evidence that CZ failed the trials not take words of horus alone! I hope that is crystal clear? If CZ failed then why was LoU/MoU signed? So please don't repeat the same X51 this that and so on. Or X39 fail fail fail SCAR! Be credible in your claims if a journalist writes a story without any credible sources he will be writing satire and tabloid!



fitpOsitive said:


> This is indeed very strong statement and I can feel its gravity as well as consequences for the rifle selected.
> 
> 
> Which one?


Failed X39 rifle!!
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/sofins-french-gign-gets-new-rifle.486701/

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> I am asking for a credible source not something like I know people on social media! You are making some very tall claims and then hide behind horus and laugh in your secret laughing group. Give credible evidence that CZ failed the trials not take words of horus alone! I hope that is crystal clear? If CZ failed then why was LoU/MoU signed? So please don't repeat the same X51 this that and so on. Or X39 fail fail fail SCAR! Be credible in your claims if a journalist writes a story without any credible sources he will be writing satire and tabloid!
> 
> 
> Failed X39 rifle!!
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/sofins-french-gign-gets-new-rifle.486701/


I am not dumb enough to tell you exact who is my source nobody is that dumb. Even a journalist when writes only say source says he never says which source or who is he or she. And yes BREN failed the trials mainly endurance test.

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> I am not dumb enough to tell you exact who is my source nobody is that dumb. Even a journalist when writes only say source says he never says which source or who is he or she. And yes BREN failed the trials mainly endurance test.


Hmmn...I believe you But its POF that signed the LoU/MoU with CZ


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Hmmn...I believe you But its POF that signed the LoU/MoU with CZ


Yup they did and I still think in x39 BREN will come but some changes will be made so it can go through our endurance test and x 51 SCAR is coming. What I am hoping for is if Pakistan goes for both SCAR and BREN than Pakistan goes for entire series of both Rifles not just one caliber

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Yup they did and I still think in x39 BREN will come but some changes will be made so it can go through our endurance test and x 51 SCAR is coming. What I am hoping for is if Pakistan goes for both SCAR and BREN than Pakistan goes for entire series of both Rifles not just one caliber


Hazrat @Zarvan when is MoU/LoU being signed with FN? as per your belief it is coming and as you are the patron of SCAR then you can enlighten us about it.


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat @Zarvan when is MoU/LoU being signed with FN? as per your belief it is coming and as you are the patron of SCAR then you can enlighten us about it.


With FN soon directly entire contract will be signed they are already given a green signal at IDEX 2017. Also SSW and SSGN have already placed there orders for SCAR and few other forces may follow the suit. Army guys are also being prepared so things are moving forward fast.


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> With FN soon directly entire contract will be signed they are already given a green signal at IDEX 2017. Also SSW and SSGN have already placed there orders for SCAR and few other forces may follow the suit. Army guys are also being prepared so things are moving forward fast.


hmmn.....but still there is no official confirmation for SCAR! is it being kept secret?


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## Gryphon

Path-Finder said:


> Failed X39 rifle!!
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/sofins-french-gign-gets-new-rifle.486701/



GIGN selected CZ BREN 2 in 7.62x39mm, not CZ 807 that PA trialed.









Path-Finder said:


> hmmn.....but still there is no official confirmation for SCAR! is it being kept secret?



Peep into his dream tonight. You have the confirmation.

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## Path-Finder

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> GIGN selected CZ BREN 2 in 7.62x39mm, not CZ 807 that PA trialed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Peep into his dream tonight. You have the confirmation.


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## parkour guy

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> GIGN selected CZ BREN 2 in 7.62x39mm, not CZ 807 that PA trialed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Peep into his dream tonight. You have the confirmation.


French GIGN's operate in close quarter combat in urban areas most oftenly.But Pakistan Army has to get all in one moderate package to operate in diverse conditions,that really needs an affordable,reliable and advance weapon to clear the mess with precision and accuracy.


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## Kompromat

FN is bringing a 7.62x39 SCAR rifle next years.








TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> GIGN selected CZ BREN 2 in 7.62x39mm, not CZ 807 that PA trialed.
> 
> Peep into his dream tonight. You have the confirmation.

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## El Fuego

Horus said:


> FN is bringing a 7.62x39 SCAR rifle next years.
> 
> View attachment 388773


I had it my hand last year in US..and trust me you dont want this. Heavy as hell - somwhere around 3,8kg and it does not have slide stop. Result: same characteristics as old AK with less reliability and much higher price. 

And with 7,62x51 I have experience- yes.

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## ali_raza

El Fuego said:


> I had it my hand last year in US..and trust me you dont want this. Heavy as hell - somwhere around 3,8kg and it does not have slide stop. Result: same characteristics as old AK with less reliability and much higher price.
> 
> And with 7,62x51 I have experience- yes.


how it went with scar


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## Path-Finder

my name was nobody said:


> Administrator (#Horus?) has banned my previous profile for pointing out that one of the discussed rifles was selected by French GIGN. I am just asking why? It is so childish. My point is simple #Zarvan and #Horus are constantly spreading fiction and fairy tales in which other rifles than FN SCAR are exploding, or are inaccurate and more. Don't you think this is just wishful thinking? There are no evidence of any of this info. But when somebody doubts about beloved SCAR they are both silent or talk like robots: "SCAR is perfect it was tested in outer space and it worked perfectly it even shoots without ammunition because SCAR is the best and it is comping..ehh soon.."
> 
> Come on..this is really ridiculous



what you are trying to say is; SCAR is the best performing rifle in Trials


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> hmmn.....but still there is no official confirmation for SCAR! is it being kept secret?


There is no official confirmation of anything right now


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> There is no official confirmation of anything right now


don't worry Hazrat our sources, predictions, news and many other factoids are dependant upon you.


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

Horus said:


> 9mm Pistols like the US Army distributes.
> 
> 
> 
> FC's acquisition is to be approved by the GHQ, Balochistan Police by MOI Balochistan.


FC's funding & acquisition is approved by MOI, not GHQ.


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## Zarvan

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> FC's funding & acquisition is approved by MOI, not GHQ.


Yes on paper but we know what is the reality


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## Thorough Pro

Probably, but I don't have any first hand knowledge to confirm or deny that.



Solomon2 said:


> Are all the candidate weapons and ammo tested the same way?



That (in red) is not an intelligent post.

To put things in perspective, Pakistan needs to new rifles
1 - Current G3 (7.62x51) - Final contenders FN Scar H & Beretta ARX200 
2 - Current Type 56 (7.62x390 - Final contender CZ 807 

From financial, manufacturing, and operational point of view the best solution would be to select both calibers from the same manufacturer. That would require half the investment in production facilities and cost a lot cheaper per unit because of commonality of component, in fact just by changing the barrel, magazine and magazine well insert you can convert one caliber to the other. I think we should go with CZ as they are ready and willing to give full TOT and exporting rights. 




Zarvan said:


> Yup they did and I still think in x39 BREN will come but some changes will be made so it can go through our endurance test and x 51 SCAR is coming. *What I am hoping for is if Pakistan goes for both SCAR and BREN than Pakistan goes for entire series of both Rifles not just one caliber*

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## Zarvan

Thorough Pro said:


> Probably, but I don't have any first hand knowledge to confirm or deny that.
> 
> 
> 
> That (in red) is not an intelligent post.
> 
> To put things in perspective, Pakistan needs to new rifles
> 1 - Current G3 (7.62x51) - Final contenders FN Scar H & Beretta ARX200
> 2 - Current Type 56 (7.62x390 - Final contender CZ 807
> 
> From financial, manufacturing, and operational point of view the best solution would be to select both calibers from the same manufacturer. That would require half the investment in production facilities and cost a lot cheaper per unit because of commonality of component, in fact just by changing the barrel, magazine and magazine well insert you can convert one caliber to the other. I think we should go with CZ as they are ready and willing to give full TOT and exporting rights.


SCAR is also giving full TOT and exporting rights,and we are looking for two calibers and in X 51 only Beretta and SCAR competed and x 39 AK 103 and BREN competed. SCAR won the every trial in x 51 category but both BREN and AK 103 have failed endurance test.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Zarvan said:


> Yes on paper but we know what is the reality


What reality ?

My father actually commanded a militia for 2 years.

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## Kompromat

I think their technical evaluation/recommendations is done by W&E of the GHQ. 



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> FC's funding & acquisition is approved by MOI, not GHQ.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Horus said:


> I think their technical evaluation/recommendations is done by W&E of the GHQ.


 Regarding what?

The only so called heavy weapons they posses are old med/small calib arty guns,old APC & type 55/59s (hand me down by the army) & choppers purchased by MOI.

In fact small arms like handguns etc are even bought at regimental level.

All budget allotment and so on varry on the graciousness of the MOI.

If at all, there is a rivalry between the paramil and the army.

Luckily when my father was commanding, the brigade commander was his unit officer and the ties between the two forces were cordial, and yet I observed the "rivalry" , when a certain NCO respectfully tells a Capt or Maj sb that he can't be served at the FC mess..

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## Kompromat

I am not talking about funding, i am talking about test and evaluation for tenders. Currently FC wants over 5000 new rifles for which a tender is reportedly issued. It will have to be approved by W&E. Based on their recommendations, the acquisition is carried out by MOI.



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Regarding what?
> 
> The only so called heavy weapons they posses are old med/small calib arty guns,old APC & type 55/59s (hand me down by the army) & choppers purchased by MOI.
> 
> In fact small arms like handguns etc are even bought at regimental level.
> 
> All budget allotment and so on varry on the graciousness of the MOI.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Horus said:


> I am not talking about funding, i am talking about test and evaluation for tenders. Currently FC wants over 5000 new rifles for which a tender is reportedly issued. It will have to be approved by W&E. Based on their recommendations, the acquisition is carried out by MOI.


5000 new rifles ?

All will be sorted out from POF.

The tender itself is pushed by FC HQ and approved by MOI.

In FC, army has no say, regarding such decisions.

FC being a separate force headed by its a Maj Gen who sits in provincial capital.
Following its own SOPs etc.

Even in 2009. 

FC 2 had started receiving Kevlar helmets and webbings which the army did later.

The average FC trooper was better equipped than the army at that time.

The only thing which we lacked was perhaps the shiny range masters army started receiving in small batches.



Zarvan said:


> SCAR is also giving full TOT and exporting rights,and we are looking for two calibers and in X 51 only Beretta and SCAR competed and x 39 AK 103 and BREN competed. SCAR won the every trial in x 51 category but both BREN and AK 103 have failed endurance test.


I seriously Fukin doubt SCAR will equip over a million troops. 

At max some SF might adopt it but not the entire mil.

I'm going to bet on CZ.

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## Kompromat

I know all of that, only think i'm suggesting is that FC's W&E for major acquisitions is carried out by the FC and the rifles they are looking for are not currently in production at POF.



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> 5000 new rifles ?
> 
> All will be sorted out from POF.
> 
> The tender itself is pushed by FC HQ and approved by MOI.
> 
> In FC, army has no say, regarding such decisions.
> 
> FC being a separate force headed by its a Maj Gen who sits in provincial capital.
> Following its own SOPs etc.
> 
> Even in 2009.
> 
> FC 2 had started receiving Kevlar helmets and webbings which the army did later.
> 
> The average FC trooper was better equipped than the army at that time.
> 
> The only thing which we lacked was perhaps the shiny range masters army started receiving in small batches.

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## Zarvan

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Regarding what?
> 
> The only so called heavy weapons they posses are old med/small calib arty guns,old APC & type 55/59s (hand me down by the army) & choppers purchased by MOI.
> 
> In fact small arms like handguns etc are even bought at regimental level.
> 
> All budget allotment and so on varry on the graciousness of the MOI.
> 
> If at all, there is a rivalry between the paramil and the army.
> 
> Luckily when my father was commanding, the brigade commander was his unit officer and the ties between the two forces were cordial, and yet I observed the "rivalry" , when a certain NCO respectfully tells a Capt or Maj sb that he can't be served at the FC mess..



Yes but they are headed by Major General and that Major General mainly reports and listens to what GHQ tells him not what MOI tells him.



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> 5000 new rifles ?
> 
> All will be sorted out from POF.
> 
> The tender itself is pushed by FC HQ and approved by MOI.
> 
> In FC, army has no say, regarding such decisions.
> 
> FC being a separate force headed by its a Maj Gen who sits in provincial capital.
> Following its own SOPs etc.
> 
> Even in 2009.
> 
> FC 2 had started receiving Kevlar helmets and webbings which the army did later.
> 
> The average FC trooper was better equipped than the army at that time.
> 
> The only thing which we lacked was perhaps the shiny range masters army started receiving in small batches.
> 
> 
> I seriously Fukin doubt SCAR will equip over a million troops.
> 
> At max some SF might adopt it but not the entire mil.
> 
> I'm going to bet on CZ.



SCAR is for entire Military not just Special Forces in fact Special Forces are not even priority at this moment they already have enough weapons and they for the least time tested the Rifles in fact it was more of a formality. SCAR H is bound to replace all G3 and message is being given to officers now that G3 is coming. BREN has failed endurance test so even if it replaces Type 56 still it would go through lot of changes. FC most likely is going to get SCAR also so will Rangers.


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## Readerdefence

Or these new rifles whatever they are or selected may be for 
Cpec security division


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## Zarvan

Readerdefence said:


> Or these new rifles whatever they are or selected may be for
> Cpec security division


They will be selected for all Armed Forces and yes CPEC security Division would also get these weapons

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## The Fist

FN Scar

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Touseef_Afzal said:


> FN Scar
> View attachment 389073


Looks like the Beretta ARX-200.


----------



## The Fist



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## MystryMan

Thorough Pro said:


> Probably, but I don't have any first hand knowledge to confirm or deny that.
> 
> 
> 
> That (in red) is not an intelligent post.
> 
> To put things in perspective, Pakistan needs to new rifles
> 1 - Current G3 (7.62x51) - Final contenders FN Scar H & Beretta ARX200
> 2 - Current Type 56 (7.62x390 - Final contender CZ 807
> 
> From financial, manufacturing, and operational point of view the best solution would be to select both calibers from the same manufacturer. That would require half the investment in production facilities and cost a lot cheaper per unit because of commonality of component, in fact just by changing the barrel, magazine and magazine well insert you can convert one caliber to the other. I think we should go with CZ as they are ready and willing to give full TOT and exporting rights.


Personally I would prefer the PA to go for SCAR for special forces (due to cost factor) and CZ for infantry for both x39 and x51 version even if we have to wait for CZ to bring its x51 up to speed.


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## Zarvan

Touseef_Afzal said:


> FN Scar
> View attachment 389073


This is Berreta ARX 200



MystryMan said:


> Personally I would prefer the PA to go for SCAR for special forces (due to cost factor) and CZ for infantry for both x39 and x51 version even if we have to wait for CZ to bring its x51 up to speed.


For once people 20 companies wanted to come we invited 5 out of which two are most expensive Guns. We knew about the cost before starting trials

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## Arsalan

MystryMan said:


> Personally I would prefer the PA to go for SCAR for special forces (due to cost factor) and CZ for infantry for both x39 and x51 version even if we have to wait for CZ to bring its x51 up to speed.


x51 from CZ was evaluated later on.

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## Path-Finder

Touseef_Afzal said:


> View attachment 389074
> View attachment 389075
> View attachment 389076


got any more pics?

It appears to be test for x51 comparing with G3 which can be seen in the pics as well most likely summertime!


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> got any more pics?
> 
> It appears to be test for x51 comparing with G3 which can be seen in the pics as well most likely summertime!


Yes Rifles in X 51 were pitched against G3.


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Yes Rifles in X 51 were pitched against G3.


Hazrat did you feel  when you saw the pics? I see you wasted no time in changing your DP .


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## MystryMan

Zarvan said:


> This is Berreta ARX 200
> 
> 
> For once people 20 companies wanted to come we invited 5 out of which two are most expensive Guns. We knew about the cost before starting trials


I said it bcz if we can get CZ with near similar capability of Scar at reduced price then we can use the saved funds on other gadgets like sights, ubgl, better comm gear etc.

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## Sulman Badshah

Arsalan said:


> x51 from CZ was evaluated later on.


never seen x51 from CZ so far ...

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## Path-Finder

Sulman Badshah said:


> never seen x51 from CZ so far ...









Guy in the prone position is on a CZ which has not been officially unveiled to public!

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Guy in the prone position is on a CZ which has not been officially unveiled to public!



If the black one is really CZ than @Horus was right that the version which we tested of CZ is Marksman version


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> If the black one is really CZ than @Horus was right that the version which we tested of CZ is Marksman version


Hazrat go back some pages I cracked the rifle as being CZ!!! On this very thread!!

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## Arsalan

Sulman Badshah said:


> never seen x51 from CZ so far ...


It was at IDEAS as well. 
Or are you talking about never seeing it being evaluated?

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat go back some pages I cracked the rifle as being CZ!!! On this very thread!!


First I know you said this Gun is x 51 in fact I was the first one to post this picture in some thread. Secondly @Horus told me that the BREN x 51 which Pakistan tested whose poster I mean that one with bullet wholes was shown at IDEAS was Marksman version much before this picture appeared.



Arsalan said:


> It was at IDEAS as well.
> Or are you talking about never seeing it being evaluated?


No it wasn't at IDEAS. At ideas they only showed the firing results of x 51 they didn't showed the rifle. Only weapon which was shown was CZ 807


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## Gryphon

In a recent conversation with @TheOccupiedKashmir, *PhDr. Ondrej Podel* (Head of Project Pakistan, CZ) dismissed rumours that CZ 807 exploded during Pakistan Army trials. He said "no explosion occured to any of our rifles. You have seen the proof target signed by authorities – accuracy after 10,000 rds – exploded rifle wouldn't do that. Trials were observed and reported by many authorities and OEM's were present to all tests as witness."

Regarding last month's presentation in Balochistan, he said that "As I have declared before, Pakistan is key partner for CZ and therefore we are very active in Pakistan. 7.62x51 was there as well, but was not released for media photoshoot. And yes 7.62x51 is part of trials."

Asked to comment on the ongoing negotiations, he said "Final stage may take even few months till everything is tuned up to everyone's satisfaction, because we work with Win - Win strategy."

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## Path-Finder

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> In a recent conversation with @TheOccupiedKashmir, *PhDr. Ondrej Podel* (Head of Project Pakistan, CZ) dismissed rumours that CZ 807 exploded during Pakistan Army trials. He said "no explosion occured to any of our rifles. You have seen the proof target signed by authorities – accuracy after 10,000 rds – exploded rifle wouldn't do that. Trials were observed and reported by many authorities and OEM's were present to all tests as witness."
> 
> Regarding last month's presentation in Balochistan, he said that "As I have declared before, Pakistan is key partner for CZ and therefore we are very active in Pakistan. 7.62x51 was there as well, but was not released for media photoshoot. And yes 7.62x51 is part of trials."
> 
> Asked to comment on the ongoing negotiations, he said "Final stage may take even few months till everything is tuned up to everyone's satisfaction, because we work with Win - Win strategy."


*PhDr. Ondrej Podel has to be the guy in the video talking about ToT with POF? *


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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> First I know you said this Gun is x 51 in fact I was the first one to post this picture in some thread. Secondly @Horus told me that the BREN x 51 which Pakistan tested whose poster I mean that one with bullet wholes was shown at IDEAS was Marksman version much before this picture appeared.
> 
> 
> No it wasn't at IDEAS. At ideas they only showed the firing results of x 51 they didn't showed the rifle. Only weapon which was shown was CZ 807


Read his question again and then my reply.
I asked him whether he mean that he have not seen one in trials or that he never know one existed. As proof of existence, it can be found at IDEAS (as you have admitted in your post too). I hope he will be able to write for himself and will then gladly discuss the matter with him.


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## MystryMan

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> In a recent conversation with @TheOccupiedKashmir, *PhDr. Ondrej Podel* (Head of Project Pakistan, CZ) dismissed rumours that CZ 807 exploded during Pakistan Army trials. He said "no explosion occured to any of our rifles. You have seen the proof target signed by authorities – accuracy after 10,000 rds – exploded rifle wouldn't do that. Trials were observed and reported by many authorities and OEM's were present to all tests as witness."
> 
> Regarding last month's presentation in Balochistan, he said that "As I have declared before, Pakistan is key partner for CZ and therefore we are very active in Pakistan. 7.62x51 was there as well, but was not released for media photoshoot. And yes 7.62x51 is part of trials."
> 
> Asked to comment on the ongoing negotiations, he said "Final stage may take even few months till everything is tuned up to everyone's satisfaction, because we work with Win - Win strategy."



From the above it seems CZ is coming at least for x39 (however we may get lucky with x51 also from CZ). May be the PA just wants to keep CZ in line by not dropping SCAR yet.

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## Kompromat

You can't expect CZ's gun runner to admit publicly that his top offering exploded during 10k round dump can you? 



TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> In a recent conversation with @TheOccupiedKashmir, *PhDr. Ondrej Podel* (Head of Project Pakistan, CZ) dismissed rumours that CZ 807 exploded during Pakistan Army trials. He said "no explosion occured to any of our rifles. You have seen the proof target signed by authorities – accuracy after 10,000 rds – exploded rifle wouldn't do that. Trials were observed and reported by many authorities and OEM's were present to all tests as witness."
> 
> Regarding last month's presentation in Balochistan, he said that "As I have declared before, Pakistan is key partner for CZ and therefore we are very active in Pakistan. 7.62x51 was there as well, but was not released for media photoshoot. And yes 7.62x51 is part of trials."
> 
> Asked to comment on the ongoing negotiations, he said "Final stage may take even few months till everything is tuned up to everyone's satisfaction, because we work with Win - Win strategy."

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## monitor

Arx-200 and scar while in trial in Pakistan. 

ARX-200 and SCAR are two finalists competing for G3 replacement while CZ807 BREN going to replace type56/81 rifle. Is it the current situation or i am wrong ?

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## Sulman Badshah

Arsalan said:


> It was at IDEAS as well.
> Or are you talking about never seeing it being evaluated?


i am talking about never seen CZ bren variant in x51.... At IDEAS only poster was there (stating that X51 is there) but the rifle that they have displayed was X39


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## Arsalan

Sulman Badshah said:


> i am talking about never seen CZ bren variant in x51.... At IDEAS only poster was there (stating that X51 is there) but the rifle that they have displayed was X39


As far as i am aware, the CZ gun in x51 category was afforded a late entry and the gun was brought towards the end of trials. It was evaluated in Pakistan however. Perhaps it have something to do with the news reports that CZ have been finalized for x39 category, perhaps that is why they allowed a late entry to the x51 gun from same source and checked it as well.

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## Zarvan

MystryMan said:


> From the above it seems CZ is coming at least for x39 (however we may get lucky with x51 also from CZ). May be the PA just wants to keep CZ in line by not dropping SCAR yet.


SCAR is pretty much already selected. The question is whether BREN Will come for x 39 caliber or not


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## Bratva

Touseef_Afzal said:


> View attachment 389074
> View attachment 389075
> View attachment 389076
















Kulbushan Yadav in Pak Army uniform testing FN SCAR in Balochistan

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## Zarvan

Bratva said:


> Kulbushan Yadav in Pak Army uniform testing FN SCAR in Balochistan


I mean that is one hell of brain storming and memory


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## Awan68

Bratva said:


> Kulbushan Yadav in Pak Army uniform testing FN SCAR in Balochistan


O shit, does this mean, hell no

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## Sully3

Bratva said:


> Kulbushan Yadav in Pak Army uniform testing FN SCAR in Balochistan


bro I'm dying here  you've got a good sense of humour 

nice to see Yadav has grown a full set of hair in 6 months

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## django

Sully3 said:


> bro I'm dying here  you've got a good sense of humour
> 
> nice to see Yadav has grown a full set of hair in 6 months


I guess all those electric shocks rejuvenated his follicles

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## Gryphon

Horus said:


> You can't expect CZ's gun runner to admit publicly that his top offering exploded during 10k round dump can you?



We have nothing more than rumours. So, there is no reason to dispute his answer.



Arsalan said:


> As far as i am aware, the CZ gun in x51 category was afforded a late entry and the gun was brought towards the end of trials. It was evaluated in Pakistan however. Perhaps it have something to do with the news reports that CZ have been finalized for x39 category, perhaps that is why they allowed a late entry to the x51 gun from same source and checked it as well.



I believe CZ 807 7.62x51mm was there very much from the beginning.

Look at this pic. The remarks are dated 26/8/16.






In September 2016, CZ was shortlisted.

https://web.archive.org/web/2016091...16/09/cz-shortlisted-for-pakistani-order.html

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## Tiger Awan

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> We have nothing more than rumours. So, there is no reason to dispute his answer.
> 
> 
> 
> I believe CZ 807 7.62x51mm was there very much from the beginning.
> 
> Look at this pic. The remarks are dated 26/8/16.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In September 2016, CZ was shortlisted.
> 
> https://web.archive.org/web/2016091...16/09/cz-shortlisted-for-pakistani-order.html


Who is this "authority" CZ representative was talking about who signed this test ?? Cant read from the pic


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## Gryphon

Tiger Awan said:


> Who is this "authority" CZ representative was talking about who signed this test ?? Cant read from the pic



Pakistani officials supervising the trials.


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## Kompromat

It is very convenient to dismiss the report as 'rumors'. CZ's gun is rubbish, it has not been adopted by any large scale military yet. I guess we will find out soon enough what happens to Bren2. From what i hear, they have been eliminated from the 7.62x51mm tender. They have a better chance in 7.62x31 category simply because the only other competitor AK-103 can't be produced at home due to tot issues. This 'accuracy test' given below is from 100m range, that too using a bipod stabilized DMR version. @balixd 




TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> We have nothing more than rumours. So, there is no reason to dispute his answer.
> 
> I believe CZ 807 7.62x51mm was there very much from the beginning.
> 
> Look at this pic. The remarks are dated 26/8/16.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In September 2016, CZ was shortlisted.
> 
> https://web.archive.org/web/2016091...16/09/cz-shortlisted-for-pakistani-order.html

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## Thorough Pro

You insulted a Pakistani brave hero by comparing him with that indian terrorist



Bratva said:


> Kulbushan Yadav in Pak Army uniform testing FN SCAR in Balochistan

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## Gryphon

Path-Finder said:


> *PhDr. Ondrej Podel has to be the guy in the video talking about ToT with POF? *



Yes.

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## Gryphon

Path-Finder said:


> @TheOccupiedKashmir The gun is rubbish! I am amazed Hazrat has not dropped by to cheerlead!



That means


SCAR is the best rifle in trials

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## Gryphon

Horus said:


> It is very convenient to dismiss the report as 'rumors'.



I say, come with one story. In trials, if a rifle 'explodes', it is considered failed AFAIK.








Horus said:


> This 'accuracy test' given below is from 100m range, that too using a bipod stabilized DMR version.



The target shows accuracy of x51 CZ 807. The rifle in picture (with bipod) is x39.

DMR's are not used at 100m.

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Horus is the person you rely on as a source. Sorry but what are you implying that he is the ultimate truth?


This is where I disagree I doubt Horus is relying on source. A person can't be right on most occasions on most weapons until and unless he works for establishment in some capacity.






Outgoing chairman POF Lt Gen Omar Mahmood Hayat HI (M) handing over the flag of POF to incoming chairman Lt. Gen Omar Farooq Durrani HI (M).

@Horus

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## fitpOsitive

As per comment by Horus, I am quite queriou that why Russians denied licensed production of AK-103? Do they fear of anything or they want ti sell AK 103 to Indians?


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## Kompromat

AK-103 exploded but it was still better than Bren. Kalashnikov refused to hand over tot so its no more part of the tender as its a core requirement. CZ despite what they are telling the media and you are not going to get the tender.




TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> I say, come with one story. In trials, if a rifle 'explodes', it is considered failed AFAIK.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The target shows accuracy of x51 CZ 807. The rifle in picture (with bipod) is x39.
> 
> DMR's are not used at 100m.



I don't like wasting my time on this thread simply because of a bunch of emo kids. That cz rifle in the picture is a stabilized x39 DMR, not the x51 battle rifle or the 39 battle rifle. I can shoot better with a 22 at a 100m range.




TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> I say, come with one story. In trials, if a rifle 'explodes', it is considered failed AFAIK.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The target shows accuracy of x51 CZ 807. The rifle in picture (with bipod) is x39.
> 
> DMR's are not used at 100m.

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## Kompromat

Protectionism. Somehow Russians think AK-103 will sell in the same numbers as the 47.

CZ was caught cheating, replacing parts etc. 



fitpOsitive said:


> As per comment by Horus, I am quite queriou that why Russians denied licensed production of AK-103? Do they fear of anything or they want ti sell AK 103 to Indians?

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## El Fuego

I made small research on FN SCAR performance in past years:
1) France army trials - *failed*
2) New Zealand army assault rifle - *failed*
3) UK DMR - *failed*
4) Czech Republic assault rifle -* failed*
5) US Soccom - *shelved*, pulled of the already equipped units
6) Australia DMR - *failed*
7) New Zealand DMR - *failed*
8) Czech Republic DMR - *failed*
9) Norway assault rifle - *failed*
10) Norway DMR - *failed*
11) Colombia Fuerzas Especiales de Marina DMR -*failed*
12) Belgium home army - not in service as main rifle
13) Peru the only big user - bribery* scandal, manipulating, cheating..*

All these are facts - not just words

Hope I will not be banned for this, because I am afraid this thread is under control of SCAR lobby

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## Path-Finder

El Fuego said:


> I made small research on FN SCAR performance in past years:
> 1) France army trials - *failed*
> 2) New Zealand army assault rifle - *failed*
> 3) UK DMR - *failed*
> 4) Czech Republic assault rifle -* failed*
> 5) US Soccom - *shelved*, pulled of the already equipped units
> 6) Australia DMR - *failed*
> 7) New Zealand DMR - *failed*
> 8) Czech Republic DMR - *failed*
> 9) Norway assault rifle - *failed*
> 10) Norway DMR - *failed*
> 11) Colombia Fuerzas Especiales de Marina DMR -*failed*
> 12) Belgium home army - not in service as main rifle
> 13) Peru the only big user - bribery* scandal, manipulating, cheating..*
> 
> All these are facts - not just words
> 
> Hope I will not be banned for this, because I am afraid this thread is under control of SCAR lobby


Are you Colombian Military/Police? I am A BIG fan of Colombian Police and Its Police Special Ops units!


----------



## django

El Fuego said:


> I made small research on FN SCAR performance in past years:
> 1) France army trials - *failed*
> 2) New Zealand army assault rifle - *failed*
> 3) UK DMR - *failed*
> 4) Czech Republic assault rifle -* failed*
> 5) US Soccom - *shelved*, pulled of the already equipped units
> 6) Australia DMR - *failed*
> 7) New Zealand DMR - *failed*
> 8) Czech Republic DMR - *failed*
> 9) Norway assault rifle - *failed*
> 10) Norway DMR - *failed*
> 11) Colombia Fuerzas Especiales de Marina DMR -*failed*
> 12) Belgium home army - not in service as main rifle
> 13) Peru the only big user - bribery* scandal, manipulating, cheating..*
> 
> All these are facts - not just words
> 
> Hope I will not be banned for this, because I am afraid this thread is under control of SCAR lobby


Hazrat sahib @Zarvan


----------



## Gryphon

El Fuego said:


> I made small research on FN SCAR performance in past years:
> 1) France army trials - *failed*
> 2) New Zealand army assault rifle - *failed*
> 3) UK DMR - *failed*
> 4) Czech Republic assault rifle -* failed*
> 5) US Soccom - *shelved*, pulled of the already equipped units
> 6) Australia DMR - *failed*
> 7) New Zealand DMR - *failed*
> 8) Czech Republic DMR - *failed*
> 9) Norway assault rifle - *failed*
> 10) Norway DMR - *failed*
> 11) Colombia Fuerzas Especiales de Marina DMR -*failed*
> 12) Belgium home army - not in service as main rifle
> 13) Peru the only big user - bribery* scandal, manipulating, cheating..*
> 
> All these are facts - not just words
> 
> Hope I will not be banned for this, because I am afraid this thread is under control of SCAR lobby



SCAR obsessed folks here will not like this, I am telling you.


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## Kompromat

40k SCAR are in service with KSA.
300,000 sold so far, more than other contestants. 

Other contestants also aren't in large scale service. HK is not selling to Pakistan, Kalashnikov isn't willing to give TOT, ARX-200 isn't battle tested and CZ cheated during tests.



El Fuego said:


> I made small research on FN SCAR performance in past years:
> 1) France army trials - *failed*
> 2) New Zealand army assault rifle - *failed*
> 3) UK DMR - *failed*
> 4) Czech Republic assault rifle -* failed*
> 5) US Soccom - *shelved*, pulled of the already equipped units
> 6) Australia DMR - *failed*
> 7) New Zealand DMR - *failed*
> 8) Czech Republic DMR - *failed*
> 9) Norway assault rifle - *failed*
> 10) Norway DMR - *failed*
> 11) Colombia Fuerzas Especiales de Marina DMR -*failed*
> 12) Belgium home army - not in service as main rifle
> 13) Peru the only big user - bribery* scandal, manipulating, cheating..*
> 
> All these are facts - not just words
> 
> Hope I will not be banned for this, because I am afraid this thread is under control of SCAR lobby

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## Khafee

Horus said:


> 40k SCAR are in service with KSA.
> 300,000 sold so far, more than other contestants.
> 
> Other contestants also aren't in large scale service. HK is not selling to Pakistan, Kalashnikov isn't willing to give TOT, ARX-200 isn't battle tested and CZ cheated during tests.



So SCAR is in?


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## Tiger Awan

to summarise past 150 pages

first : SCAR and Beretta are winners, CZ is third
then : CZ Bren was beaten by AK-103
then : Bren exploded after 10,000 rounds
then : CZ cheated the trials

wait for some more pages and we will be seeing "CZ sent a water gun to trials"

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## El Fuego

Horus said:


> 40k SCAR are in service with KSA.
> 300,000 sold so far, more than other contestants.
> 
> Other contestants also aren't in large scale service. HK is not selling to Pakistan, Kalashnikov isn't willing to give TOT, ARX-200 isn't battle tested and CZ cheated during tests.


I thought you will react like this 
ARX has beaten SCAR badly in Argentina so far..
CZ in service in Mexico, they are using it quite a lot and as far as I know some of those warriors they do not complain.
And GIGN guys test their weapons properly.
KSA is not ordering SCAR any more so is the PERU, it is slowly being replaced in service here..

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## Kompromat

After failure of the x39 tests, i don't think Army will buy one. They really wanted the AK-103 but Russians won't let us make them. x51 is between SCAR and ARX. Former is leading thus far. 



Khafee said:


> So SCAR is in?



You should ask the CZ rep to officially deny that they didn't change parts during trials and gotten caught by the Army. I'll send the statement to the relevant quarter and we will find out. Plus, no other contestant than CZ is playing media gimmicks. What does it tell you! 



Tiger Awan said:


> to summarise past 150 pages
> 
> first : SCAR and Beretta are winners, CZ is third
> then : CZ Bren was beaten by AK-103
> then : Bren exploded after 10,000 rounds
> then : CZ cheated the trials
> 
> wait for some more pages and we will be seeing "CZ sent a water gun to trials"

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## Khafee

Horus said:


> After failure of the x39 tests, i don't think Army will buy one. They really wanted the AK-103 but Russians won't let us make them. x51 is between SCAR and ARX. Former is leading thus far.


Well both are good, but I'm biased towards SCAR, sorry. I sincerely hope and pray, you guys go for it.


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## Kompromat

I have no means to verify your information. ARX-200 has passed most trials in Pakistan too, although it has not been impressive. I'm not conducting any trials and i just have confidence that the Army will pick the very best rifle for its soldiers, be it the SCAR or ARX. CZ and AK failed 10k round dump tests, so i think in the absence of any viable alternatives, the Army will not proceed with the x39 requirement for the time being.



El Fuego said:


> I thought you will react like this
> ARX has beaten SCAR badly in Argentina so far..
> CZ in service in Mexico, they are using it quite a lot and as far as I know some of those warriors they do not complain.
> And GIGN guys test their weapons properly.
> KSA is not ordering SCAR any more so is the PERU, it is slowly being replaced in service here..



I think the decision has been made. We will find out after the budget in June. 



Khafee said:


> Well both are good, but I'm biased towards SCAR, sorry. I sincerely hope and pray, you guys go for it.

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## Tiger Awan

Horus said:


> After failure of the x39 tests, i don't think Army will buy one. They really wanted the AK-103 but Russians won't let us make them. x51 is between SCAR and ARX. Former is leading thus far.
> 
> 
> 
> You should ask the CZ rep to officially deny that they didn't change parts during trials and gotten caught by the Army. I'll send the statement to the relevant quarter and we will find out. Plus, no other contestant than CZ is playing media gimmicks. What does it tell you!



Where did i say the information is wrong ?  Regarding finding out the fact : I can wait for official contract, whoever gets it is the winner. Trust army to not go for a wrong platform


----------



## Kompromat

SCAR is the best platform in my opinion. It fits perfectly with our requirements to update the soldiers personal land warfare system coming in the future. It also satisfies our requirements for 5.56mm variants for three Special Ops units as well as the 13" variant can serve as a CQB replacement for the MP5s. We are looking at one million rifles! - Army has conducted very transparent and rigorous trials in all environments of Pakistan and whichever rifle wins will be according to Pakistan's requirements. 




Tiger Awan said:


> Where did i say the information is wrong ?  Regarding finding out the fact : I can wait for official contract, whoever gets it is the winner. Trust army to not go for a wrong platform

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## SQ8

In the end the Army will buy the Beretta at 20% more cost than the other competitors.

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## MystryMan

Horus said:


> After failure of the x39 tests, i don't think Army will buy one. They really wanted the AK-103 but Russians won't let us make them. x51 is between SCAR and ARX. Former is leading thus far.
> 
> 
> 
> You should ask the CZ rep to officially deny that they didn't change parts during trials and gotten caught by the Army. I'll send the statement to the relevant quarter and we will find out. Plus, no other contestant than CZ is playing media gimmicks. What does it tell you!


Then what do you think of the LOU between POF and CZ?

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## Path-Finder

Horus said:


> After failure of the x39 tests, i don't think Army will buy one. They really wanted the AK-103 but Russians won't let us make them. x51 is between SCAR and ARX. Former is leading thus far.
> 
> 
> 
> You should ask the CZ rep to officially deny that they didn't change parts during trials and gotten caught by the Army. I'll send the statement to the relevant quarter and we will find out. Plus, no other contestant than CZ is playing media gimmicks. What does it tell you!


Please lets have the clarification on CZ. @TheOccupiedKashmir can you ask the CZ guy *PhDr. Ondrej Podel. *Someone is talking porkies, meaning no disrespect.


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## Vergennes

El Fuego said:


> I made small research on FN SCAR performance in past years:
> 1) France army trials - *failed*
> 2) New Zealand army assault rifle - *failed*
> 3) UK DMR - *failed*
> 4) Czech Republic assault rifle -* failed*
> 5) US Soccom - *shelved*, pulled of the already equipped units
> 6) Australia DMR - *failed*
> 7) New Zealand DMR - *failed*
> 8) Czech Republic DMR - *failed*
> 9) Norway assault rifle - *failed*
> 10) Norway DMR - *failed*
> 11) Colombia Fuerzas Especiales de Marina DMR -*failed*
> 12) Belgium home army - not in service as main rifle
> 13) Peru the only big user - bribery* scandal, manipulating, cheating..*
> 
> All these are facts - not just words
> 
> Hope I will not be banned for this, because I am afraid this thread is under control of SCAR lobby



Just a small correction,the Belgian army selected it as its new standard rifle. 5,324 pieces were ordered in 2014,with probably follow on orders to equip all the other branches of Belgium's army.


http://trends.levif.be/economie/ent...es-de-l-armee-belge/article-normal-20227.html







Just a precision : FN got eliminated out of the Famas' replacement bid because of irregularities concerning the price offer as I said some months ago on this thread. It wasn't even tested.

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## Kompromat

POF is the Graveyard of MOUs and LOUs. 



MystryMan said:


> Then what do you think of the LOU between POF and CZ?

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## That Guy

El Fuego said:


> I made small research on FN SCAR performance in past years:
> 1) France army trials - *failed*
> 2) New Zealand army assault rifle - *failed*
> 3) UK DMR - *failed*
> 4) Czech Republic assault rifle -* failed*
> 5) US Soccom - *shelved*, pulled of the already equipped units
> 6) Australia DMR - *failed*
> 7) New Zealand DMR - *failed*
> 8) Czech Republic DMR - *failed*
> 9) Norway assault rifle - *failed*
> 10) Norway DMR - *failed*
> 11) Colombia Fuerzas Especiales de Marina DMR -*failed*
> 12) Belgium home army - not in service as main rifle
> 13) Peru the only big user - bribery* scandal, manipulating, cheating..*
> 
> All these are facts - not just words
> 
> Hope I will not be banned for this, because I am afraid this thread is under control of SCAR lobby


Why would you be banned? Mods only go after people being a-holes, don't worry too much. Also, there are only 2, maybe 3 people advocating for the SCAR, everyone else (like me) thinks the SCAR is overrated. I'm personally hoping the ARX wins.

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## Vergennes

Vergennes said:


> Just a precision : FN got eliminated out of the Famas' replacement bid because of irregularities concerning the price offer as I said some months ago on this thread. It wasn't even tested.



@El Fuego

I've written some times ago ;



> The "Fabrique Nationale d'Herstal" (propriété de la région Wallonne) offer was immediatly rejected by the administrative court of Paris (Tribunal administratif de Paris) because of flagrant commercial irregularities in its offer in the tender to replace the FAMAS.
> Basically to make it easier,they declared a price of €0 for the first batch then a variable price for each one of the following batches..... The judge considered that in the event that the rifles are bought in one batch,it would violate the article 1 of the code,making the offer unacceptable....



A pretty dumb move that made the FN lose the tender.

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## Zarvan

Oscar said:


> In the end the Army will buy the Beretta at 20% more cost than the other competitors.


Not happening to prevent this a guy was recently removed


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## ali_raza

Zarvan said:


> Not happening to prevent this a guy was recently removed


lol


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Not happening to prevent this a guy was recently removed


so that means someone was on the take by Beretta and they have been removed but no one is on the take by FN?

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> so that means someone was on the take by Beretta and they have been removed but no one is on the take by FN?


No need SCAR passed all tests


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## Awan68

Zarvan said:


> Not happening to prevent this a guy was recently removed


Hazrat sent his secret team of ninjas and eliminated the guy rooting for berreta, posters were also thrown on ghq and pof via hazrats stealth bomber reading "death to the enemies of scar"...

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## Zarvan

Awan68 said:


> Hazrat sent his secret team of ninjas and eliminated the guy rooting for berreta, posters were also thrown on ghq and pof via hazrats stealth bomber reading "death to the enemies of scar"...


Ask POF workers even they know it


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> No need SCAR passed all tests


Hazrat that is wonderful I hope those Peruvians learn to use SCAR properly so FN doesn't not need to bribe people there.


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## Awan68

Zarvan said:


> Ask POF workers even they know it


So ur syndicate can catch me when i visit pof??, hazrat ur very smart but im smarter, i will remain under ground and run the resistance from there, viva beretta, viva Cz..

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## Path-Finder

Awan68 said:


> So ur syndicate can catch me when i visit pof??, hazrat ur very smart but im smarter, i will remain under ground and run the resistance from there, viva beretta, via Cz..


It is now affirmative! Hazrat has just dropped a bombshell on corruption between POF & beretta!


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## Awan68

Path-Finder said:


> It is now affirmative! Hazrat has just dropped a bombshell on corruption between POF & beretta!


Hazrat leaks!!!

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## Path-Finder

Awan68 said:


> Hazrat leaks!!!


Its worse this is a *very serious allegation* that Hazrat has made that a firearms maker has tried to bribe the countries Defence production.

Let me repeat it this is a scandal between POF and Beretta!!! Hazrat are you 100% sure can you stand by your claim??

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## django

Path-Finder said:


> Its worse this is a *very serious allegation* that Hazrat has made that a firearms maker has tried to bribe the countries Defence production.
> 
> Let me repeat it this is a scandal between POF and Beretta!!! Hazrat are 100% sure can you stand by your claim??


It seems Hazrats sources are "FAKE NEWS"


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## Path-Finder

Hazrat @Zarvan ??


django said:


> It seems Hazrats sources are "FAKE NEWS"


It is a serious allegation that should have people involved in this tried! Don't you agree?

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## django

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat @Zarvan ??
> 
> It is a serious allegation that should have people involved in this tried! *Don't you agree?*


Absolutely, though the onus is on hazrat sahib to provide the evidence.

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat that is wonderful I hope those Peruvians learn to use SCAR properly so FN doesn't not need to bribe people there.


What if in Peru case SCAR wasn't at fault and some other thing happened. By the way if @Horus is right and CZ is also out AK-103 not ready to give TOT so I think we should try to resolve the issue with Berreta Rifle as it has 7.62 X 39 version also. Test it again and if satisfied go for both SCAR and Berreta. SCAR will also soon come up with x 39 version soon we can have two Rifle series who offer all three calibers which our forces use. And we can equip our Police Force also.

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> What if in Peru case SCAR wasn't at fault and some other thing happened. By the way if @Horus is right and CZ is also out AK-103 not ready to give TOT so I think we should try to resolve the issue with Berreta Rifle as it has 7.62 X 39 version also. Test it again and if satisfied go for both SCAR and Berreta. SCAR will also soon come up with x 39 version soon we can have two Rifle series who offer all three calibers which our forces use. And we can equip our Police Force also.


That is called going in circle Hazrat! I am astonished that FN is not at fault anywhere in the world? Fault lies with the user and user alone. What reason can you give that the US have shelved SCAR from their Spec Ops and Rangers battalion? Like Peru are the operators to blame here as well? 

You have gone from Horus is always right to 'if' that is quite a shift Hazrat!!


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> That is called going in circle Hazrat! I am astonished that FN is not at fault anywhere in the world? Fault lies with the user and user alone. What reason can you give that the US have shelved SCAR from their Spec Ops and Rangers battalion? Like Peru are the operators to blame here as well?
> 
> You have gone from Horus is always right to 'if' that is quite a shift Hazrat!!


I haven't seen or heard about SCAR H failing tests any where in the world and if it has passed tests of Pakistan than it's hard to fail tests for it. No country tests a weapon except for Pakistan and India in 50 C to - 50 C temperatures so if it has passed tests here than I would really like to know what crap Peru was doing.


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> I haven't seen or heard about SCAR H failing tests any where in the world and if it has passed tests of Pakistan than it's hard to fail tests for it. No country tests a weapon except for Pakistan and India in 50 C to - 50 C temperatures so if it has passed tests here than I would really like to know what crap Peru was doing.


You haven't answered the question? but rather provided a excuse!!


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> You haven't answered the question? but rather provided a excuse!!


I have answered the question. I really want to know what crap Peru did if a Gun passes the tests in most difficult terrains it's not going to fail in other country so Peru definitely did some crap on there own and trying to blame FN. A Rifle passing tests in the range we tested it is great Rifle.


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## Thorough Pro

If what you say about CZ is correct, then I am utterly disappointed in that company (my favourite by the way), and then how come they are still termed as No 3, cheaters should be banned to compete in the ongoing and any future participation in such trials. If they are being dishonest at this stage of the business, what would they do going forward?

Why were they even allowed to demo their weapons again to Police/FC a few days ago?

Send them back for cheating. Send a strong message to them and others in the competition that we don't tolerate such behaviour.





Horus said:


> After failure of the x39 tests, i don't think Army will buy one. They really wanted the AK-103 but Russians won't let us make them. x51 is between SCAR and ARX. Former is leading thus far.
> 
> 
> 
> You should ask the CZ rep to officially deny that they didn't change parts during trials and gotten caught by the Army. I'll send the statement to the relevant quarter and we will find out. Plus, no other contestant than CZ is playing media gimmicks. What does it tell you!



and ARX to be banned from competing in the trials



Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat @Zarvan ??
> 
> It is a serious allegation that should have people involved in this tried! Don't you agree?







Path-Finder said:


> Its worse this is a *very serious allegation* that Hazrat has made that a firearms maker has tried to bribe the countries Defence production.
> 
> Let me repeat it this is a scandal between POF and Beretta!!! Hazrat are you 100% sure can you stand by your claim??


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## Gryphon

Path-Finder said:


> Please lets have the clarification on CZ. @TheOccupiedKashmir can you ask the CZ guy *PhDr. Ondrej Podel. *Someone is talking porkies, meaning no disrespect.



It is not possible for me to seek his comments on every rumour.



Horus said:


> I think the decision has been made. We will find out after the budget in June.



For us, it is better to wait for official news.

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## Thunder.Storm

@Zarvan @Path-Finder @Vergennes @That Guy @El Fuego 
*Peru FN SCAR Rifle Controversy*
Posted September 19, 2013 in NFA / Suppressors / Class III, Rifles by Steve Johnson with 92 Comments
Tags: fn, military, peru, SCAR
Earlier this year we reported that the Peruvian military had decided to adopt the FN SCAR-H. Only the SCAR-H was able to read the final round of the competition. MKE dropped out because they were not willing to guarantee a 20,000 shot lifespan, LWRC’s rifle failed the beach and sand test and H&K’s entry failed the mud test. The SCAR-H passed all these tests but it appears to fail the final test.
In the test the rifle was unscientifically dropped 2.5 meters (8.2 feet) onto concrete seven times. I assume this is the same rifle had already been subjected to all the previous torture tests. Given that it appears no rifle entered into the competition was able to complete all the tests, I think it is safe to say that the tests were at fault rather than the rifles.

We would all like an accurate and light rifle that required no maintenance, could be used as a hammer, thrown off buildings and submerged in mud and still continue to function with sub-MOA accuracy. Instead we make compromises because a modern full/semi-automatic rifle built like a tank with loose tolerances would not be a pleasant rifle to carry nor would it be accurate. Peru will probably be mounting expensive optics on their new rifles that anyway would fail all or most of the tests.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2013/09/19/peru-fn-scar-rifle-controversy/

FN SCAR 17S & Burris Eliminator III @942 Yards


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## Super Falcon

HK 417 should be tested


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## Zarvan

Thunder.Storm said:


> @Zarvan @Path-Finder @Vergennes @That Guy @El Fuego
> *Peru FN SCAR Rifle Controversy*
> Posted September 19, 2013 in NFA / Suppressors / Class III, Rifles by Steve Johnson with 92 Comments
> Tags: fn, military, peru, SCAR
> Earlier this year we reported that the Peruvian military had decided to adopt the FN SCAR-H. Only the SCAR-H was able to read the final round of the competition. MKE dropped out because they were not willing to guarantee a 20,000 shot lifespan, LWRC’s rifle failed the beach and sand test and H&K’s entry failed the mud test. The SCAR-H passed all these tests but it appears to fail the final test.
> In the test the rifle was unscientifically dropped 2.5 meters (8.2 feet) onto concrete seven times. I assume this is the same rifle had already been subjected to all the previous torture tests. Given that it appears no rifle entered into the competition was able to complete all the tests, I think it is safe to say that the tests were at fault rather than the rifles.
> 
> We would all like an accurate and light rifle that required no maintenance, could be used as a hammer, thrown off buildings and submerged in mud and still continue to function with sub-MOA accuracy. Instead we make compromises because a modern full/semi-automatic rifle built like a tank with loose tolerances would not be a pleasant rifle to carry nor would it be accurate. Peru will probably be mounting expensive optics on their new rifles that anyway would fail all or most of the tests.
> http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2013/09/19/peru-fn-scar-rifle-controversy/
> 
> FN SCAR 17S & Burris Eliminator III @942 Yards


SCAR H passed all the tests we tested it in temperatures from 50 C to - 50 C we had thrown it from buildigs and did every ruthless thing which can be done and SCAR passed all so Peru needs to come and challenge us here we would test them in front of them. @Super Falcon I would also like to see Pakistan testing HK 417\416 but Germany doesn't allow weapons sales to non Nato countries and Germany also has come up with new Rifle by the way

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## Tiger Awan

Zarvan said:


> SCAR H passed all the tests we tested it in temperatures from 50 C to - 50 C we had thrown it from buildigs and did every ruthless thing which can be done and SCAR passed all so Peru needs to come and challenge us here we would test them in front of them. @Super Falcon I would also like to see Pakistan testing HK 417\416 but Germany doesn't allow weapons sales to non Nato countries and Germany also has come up with new Rifle by the way



So in the name of your love for scar, Peru will challenge SCAR and then Pakistan army will prove them wrong


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## Thunder.Storm

Zarvan said:


> SCAR H passed all the tests we tested it in temperatures from 50 C to - 50 C we had thrown it from buildigs and did every ruthless thing which can be done and SCAR passed all so Peru needs to come and challenge us here we would test them in front of them. @Super Falcon I would also like to see Pakistan testing HK 417\416 but Germany doesn't allow weapons sales to non Nato countries and Germany also has come up with new Rifle by the way


if you see the date of posting that article, don't you think 4 years passed they must have improved the rifle(if it had some deficiencies). and they say it failed final test which was dropping on concrete ground seven times.


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> SCAR H passed all the tests we tested it in temperatures from 50 C to - 50 C we had thrown it from buildigs and did every ruthless thing which can be done and SCAR passed all so Peru needs to come and challenge us here we would test them in front of them. @Super Falcon I would also like to see Pakistan testing HK 417\416 but Germany doesn't allow weapons sales to non Nato countries and Germany also has come up with new Rifle by the way


are you for real Hazrat the military of Peru is going to come and challenge you who has no part in trials *and *has no military affiliation either! You still haven't answered the question which I asked about US Spec Ops and rangers battalion shelving SCAR? Then you made a huge claim that Beretta tried to bribe POF? So please lets remain in our britches!


Thunder.Storm said:


> @Zarvan @Path-Finder @Vergennes @That Guy @El Fuego
> *Peru FN SCAR Rifle Controversy*
> Posted September 19, 2013 in NFA / Suppressors / Class III, Rifles by Steve Johnson with 92 Comments
> Tags: fn, military, peru, SCAR
> Earlier this year we reported that the Peruvian military had decided to adopt the FN SCAR-H. Only the SCAR-H was able to read the final round of the competition. MKE dropped out because they were not willing to guarantee a 20,000 shot lifespan, LWRC’s rifle failed the beach and sand test and H&K’s entry failed the mud test. The SCAR-H passed all these tests but it appears to fail the final test.
> In the test the rifle was unscientifically dropped 2.5 meters (8.2 feet) onto concrete seven times. I assume this is the same rifle had already been subjected to all the previous torture tests. Given that it appears no rifle entered into the competition was able to complete all the tests, I think it is safe to say that the tests were at fault rather than the rifles.
> 
> We would all like an accurate and light rifle that required no maintenance, could be used as a hammer, thrown off buildings and submerged in mud and still continue to function with sub-MOA accuracy. Instead we make compromises because a modern full/semi-automatic rifle built like a tank with loose tolerances would not be a pleasant rifle to carry nor would it be accurate. Peru will probably be mounting expensive optics on their new rifles that anyway would fail all or most of the tests.
> http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2013/09/19/peru-fn-scar-rifle-controversy/
> 
> FN SCAR 17S & Burris Eliminator III @942 Yards


I posted this link few pages back. If you go down into the comments someone made a interesting statement;

_Peruvian here. This is what I've heard from people related to this matter: Officers that wrote negative feedbacks about these rifles have been removed & replaced by others who wrote new reviews; apparently there's a HUGE bribe scam behind this that involves high-ranking military officers and politicians.
*Test rifles were deployed to local jungle combat theater against drug dealers/maoist terrorists; chopper (Mi-8?) carrying troops was shot down while unloading troops and none of the SCARs (Apparently 6 or so) survived the crash; Galils were heavily damaged too but kept firing and were used by wounded survivors to repeal the ambush.
Some people tried without success to upgrade currently available weapons, mainly FALs with modern hardware; apparently they were seen as a menace to many interests.*

Unless deployed to specialized units, average Peruvian soldier could break an AK (I've seen them do it) in no time.

Currently our armed forces are equipped with the following MBRs: refurbished N. Korean AKMs (Cops; little remaining ammo for them; among armed forces runs the rumor that it's a crime against humanity to use 7.62x39mm.), HK G-3s (Cops; bought in the early '80s; stored after the AKs arrived in the late '80s but now redeployed and used with Chinese-made 7.62NATO ammo issued by the Army), AK-47s (Air Force), 5.56 Galils (Army, Navy and maybe Air Force too), FALs (Both FN and Argentinian-made; Army, Air Force and Navy) and a hodgepodge of assorted guns that include various M-16/AR style rifles (Usually cops fighting in the jungle theater), Daewoos (Navy) and 5.56 HKs (91? 93?; used by cops & Navy).

Holded a SCAR some time ago. Wouldn't use it as a doorstop, less as a weapon in the terrible climate, geographical and logistical nightmare our poor troops have to endure.
_
None of the SCAR survived a Heli Crash BUT outdated Galil rifles survived the Heli crash! Strange!!


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## Zarvan

Tiger Awan said:


> So in the name of your love for scar, Peru will challenge SCAR and then Pakistan army will prove them wrong


We tested SCAR in every possible scenario if Peru and his people have so much issue they can bring what ever issue they have. People like you laugh because you failed to prove me wrong and SCAR won so keep laughing


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> We tested SCAR in every possible scenario if Peru and his people have so much issue they can bring what ever issue they have. People like you laugh because you failed to prove me wrong and SCAR won so keep laughing


Hazrat did you test the rifle or observe the trials? all we have is rumors that get more and more ridiculous. Unless you saw it and took part in it then anything you say is dismissable.

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## Gryphon

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat did you test the rifle or observe the trials? all we have is rumors that get more and more ridiculous. Unless you saw it and took part in it then anything you say is dismissable.



If CZ is involved in cheating and its weapons failed (malfunctioned multiple times / exploded), why not kick the company out ? 

MKEK (Turkey) participated in the tender with its x51 MPT-76. It failed summer trials and the company wants PA to retrial the rifle (after improvements were made).

At last month's Army organized event in Quetta, CZ was reportedly the only OEM participating.

Local police looked very interested in CZ weapons for its elite counter-terror unit. You have LCB soldiers firing CZ weapons and large no. of CZ Scorpion brochures / manuals (in the hands of a soldier). Speaks for itself.

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## Zarvan

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> If CZ is involved in cheating and its weapons failed (malfunctioned multiple times / exploded), why not kick the company out ?
> 
> MKEK (Turkey) participated in the tender with its x51 MPT-76. It failed summer trials and the company wants PA to retrial the rifle (after improvements were made).
> 
> At last month's Army organized event in Quetta, CZ was reportedly the only OEM participating.
> 
> Local police looked very interested in CZ weapons for its elite counter-terror unit. You have LCB soldiers firing CZ weapons and large no. of CZ Scorpion brochures / manuals (in the hands of a soldier). Speaks for itself.


I think you didn't read Horus last few posts he just told that CZ is out. As for new Elite Police Units they may get SCAR but my question which weapon will come to regular PoliceMan. Old Type 56 has to go and G3 is way to big in size to give to them and if both CZ and AK-103 are out than what option we are left with. I really want Pakistan to test few more Assault Rifles may be no Poland one and few companies from USA like COLT 901 we need two series at least produced in Pakistan we have massive Police and Armed Forces to equip. 




Poland MSBS 





Colt 901


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## Tiger Awan

Zarvan said:


> We tested SCAR in every possible scenario if Peru and his people have so much issue they can bring what ever issue they have. People like you laugh because you failed to prove me wrong and SCAR won so keep laughing



I am laughing because whatever problems Peru had with the weapon, they dont require a certificate from you to think those problems are gone, they will deal with the manufacturer themselves. Just because you are a big fan of SCAR doesnt make you an authority over its dealings

What is important for Pakistan is to see the history of the weapon and take all these findings objectively. Thinking objectively will be too difficult for you so dont try

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## Path-Finder

*SCAR Mk-16 Reverb (To Buy or Not To Buy)*
TOPICS:AdminBattle RifleDoor KickersSmall Arms


POSTED BY: CHRISTIAN JULY 9, 2010

Wow…two full weeks after we broke the news that (officially) US Special Operations Command had canned the Mk-16, the story is still causing ripples across the Internet, in Congress, the services and in industry.





Fervent denials, insults, attaboys and eye-rolls have greeted the story in various corners but for most close observers of the SCAR program, the news was not surprising.

I’m fine with constructive criticism of my stories and was quick to explain where I messed up or was misunderstood.

But as the curiosity of the program changes keep evolving, two days ago the parent company of FNH-USA which has the SCAR contract with SOCOM, issued a release seemingly contradicting our story…(Big props to Thefirearmsblog where I first saw this)

Belgium-based firearms manufacturer FN Herstal hereby refutes the allegations recently found on the web that USSOCOM abandoned the 5.56 version of the SCAR rifle and reconfirms USSOCOM’s decision to acquire the full FN SCAR family of weapons, including the 5.56mm rifle.

But that clearly doesn’t square with what SOCOM told me. Here’s verbatum what SOCOM PAO Maj. Wes Ticer provided for me on June 25:

After completing testing, US Special Operations Command decided to
procure the 7.62 mm Mk 17 rifle, the 40mm Mk 13 grenade launcher and the
Mk 20 Sniper Support rifle variants of the Special Operations Forces Combat Assault Rifle (SCAR) manufactured by FN Herstal. The command will not purchase the 5.56 mm Mk 16. (emphasis added)

Who’s right?

FNH-USA spokeswoman Elaine Golladay suggested we revisit the more detailed July 2 release from the US-based company for a clearer picture of what’s happening…

The issue is whether or not the requirement for a 5.56mm replacement outweighs the numerous other requirements competing for the customers’ limited budget. That is a question that will only be determined by the customer.

So, I went ahead and contacted SOCOM to square the two releases and was told the command hadn’t reversed course…

There are no changes to the information that we previously released to you about USSOCOM plans to acquire the SCAR.

Now look, I understand if we’re splitting hairs here — that what FN Herstal meant to say was that component commands within SOCOM _will_ or _may_ buy the Mk-16 while the overall command, USSOCOM, will not. Or maybe there’s just a translation error. I don’t know.

Suffice it to say that actually nothing has changed — that at least in the customer’s eyes, there’s nothing to “refute” or “reconfirm.”

https://kitup.military.com/2010/07/scar-mk-16-reverb-to-buy-or-not-to-buy.html
...................................................................................................................................................

USSOCOM has abandoned SCAR!!! But gave no clear reason!!


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## Kompromat

hk won't sell to Pakistan. I really like the latest variant of the 417.



Super Falcon said:


> HK 417 should be tested

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## fitpOsitive

Horus said:


> hk won't sell to Pakistan.


Why? Any bad experience by H&K?


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## Vergennes

fitpOsitive said:


> Why? Any bad experience by H&K?



*Heckler & Koch Gives Up Selling Firearms to non-NATO Members/Partners*

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...es-selling-firearms-non-nato-memberspartners/

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## El Fuego

*FN recalls SCAR rifles*

8/21/16 by Daniel Terrill









The FN SCAR 17S. (Photo: FN America)


FN America issued a mandatory recall for hundreds for FN SCAR rifles, according to Aug. 10


The gun maker says certain FN SCAR 17S rifles contain a bolt that does not meet internal hardness specifications and firing the rifles could result in catastrophic failure.


• Product: FN SCAR 17S

• Model: FN SCAR 17S FDE

• Color: Flat Dark Earth

• Product # 98541 (Commercial; 20-rd); 98641 (Commercial; 10-rd); 98552 (LE; 20-rd)

• Product Serial Numbers: HC52427 through HC52926

Location of Manufacturer: Herstal, Belgium

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> *SCAR Mk-16 Reverb (To Buy or Not To Buy)*
> TOPICS:AdminBattle RifleDoor KickersSmall Arms
> 
> 
> POSTED BY: CHRISTIAN JULY 9, 2010
> 
> Wow…two full weeks after we broke the news that (officially) US Special Operations Command had canned the Mk-16, the story is still causing ripples across the Internet, in Congress, the services and in industry.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fervent denials, insults, attaboys and eye-rolls have greeted the story in various corners but for most close observers of the SCAR program, the news was not surprising.
> 
> I’m fine with constructive criticism of my stories and was quick to explain where I messed up or was misunderstood.
> 
> But as the curiosity of the program changes keep evolving, two days ago the parent company of FNH-USA which has the SCAR contract with SOCOM, issued a release seemingly contradicting our story…(Big props to Thefirearmsblog where I first saw this)
> 
> Belgium-based firearms manufacturer FN Herstal hereby refutes the allegations recently found on the web that USSOCOM abandoned the 5.56 version of the SCAR rifle and reconfirms USSOCOM’s decision to acquire the full FN SCAR family of weapons, including the 5.56mm rifle.
> 
> But that clearly doesn’t square with what SOCOM told me. Here’s verbatum what SOCOM PAO Maj. Wes Ticer provided for me on June 25:
> 
> After completing testing, US Special Operations Command decided to
> procure the 7.62 mm Mk 17 rifle, the 40mm Mk 13 grenade launcher and the
> Mk 20 Sniper Support rifle variants of the Special Operations Forces Combat Assault Rifle (SCAR) manufactured by FN Herstal. The command will not purchase the 5.56 mm Mk 16. (emphasis added)
> 
> Who’s right?
> 
> FNH-USA spokeswoman Elaine Golladay suggested we revisit the more detailed July 2 release from the US-based company for a clearer picture of what’s happening…
> 
> The issue is whether or not the requirement for a 5.56mm replacement outweighs the numerous other requirements competing for the customers’ limited budget. That is a question that will only be determined by the customer.
> 
> So, I went ahead and contacted SOCOM to square the two releases and was told the command hadn’t reversed course…
> 
> There are no changes to the information that we previously released to you about USSOCOM plans to acquire the SCAR.
> 
> Now look, I understand if we’re splitting hairs here — that what FN Herstal meant to say was that component commands within SOCOM _will_ or _may_ buy the Mk-16 while the overall command, USSOCOM, will not. Or maybe there’s just a translation error. I don’t know.
> 
> Suffice it to say that actually nothing has changed — that at least in the customer’s eyes, there’s nothing to “refute” or “reconfirm.”
> 
> https://kitup.military.com/2010/07/scar-mk-16-reverb-to-buy-or-not-to-buy.html
> ...................................................................................................................................................
> 
> USSOCOM has abandoned SCAR!!! But gave no clear reason!!



They stopped SCAR 16 long time ago it's than SCAR H came in and than they started adopting SCAR but than came budget cuts due to which process if freezed for now. SCAR 16 was better than M 4 but not that better but SCAR H was way ahead.



Horus said:


> hk won't sell to Pakistan. I really like the latest variant of the 417.


Pakistan should send a high level delegation to Germany and try to talk to them. We may get lucky


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## pzfz

From the start I've been of the opinion this rifle acquisition is a waste of time and money; and is simply not needed. A way for some generals to get some extra cash on the side on the way to retirement. 

There have no rifle tech/design breakthroughs that warrant a new service-wide rifle. Besides the well-known manufacturers stayed away. By the time Pakmil decides on a rifle the world will have moved on to newer and better things such as caseless ammo and new cartridges - mainly the 6.0 and 6.5mm. Right now Pakmil can get by with the modified type 56, g3s, and m4s. SF should just get OTS rifles. Invest in R&D, HR, and tooling. 

The money can be better spent on comms, elops, and body armor. Those are the force multipliers where the pay-off will be huge.


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## Rafi

We are going around in circles. CZ are the favourites and will most likely bag the deal. All the others are struggling, SCAR is gonna loose big time, their offer is the weakest, unless there is a huge change in price, or other circumstances. Nuff said.

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## Zarvan

Rafi said:


> We are going around in circles. CZ are the favourites and will most likely bag the deal. All the others are struggling, SCAR is gonna loose big time, their offer is the weakest, unless there is a huge change in price, or other circumstances. Nuff said.


For GOD sake SCAR has almost won the deal even Army officers are being told that SCAR will be there Gun and CZ is mostly like out of the competition. @Horus


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> They stopped SCAR 16 long time ago it's than SCAR H came in and than they started adopting SCAR but than came budget cuts due to which process if freezed for now. SCAR 16 was better than M 4 but not that better but SCAR H was way ahead.
> 
> 
> Pakistan should send a high level delegation to Germany and try to talk to them. We may get lucky


NO SACR is NOT in service with USSOCOM even H that you are talking about has now been replaced with AR based DMR rifle so please think before fanboying SCAR.


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> NO SACR is NOT in service with USSOCOM even H that you are talking about has now been replaced with AR based DMR rifle so please think before fanboying SCAR.


Yes SCAR is being adopted by USA Special Forces and there command and also by several other special forces around the world. You need to stop being blind to that instead of telling me


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

pzfz said:


> From the start I've been of the opinion this rifle acquisition is a waste of time and money; and is simply not needed. A way for some generals to get some extra cash on the side on the way to retirement.
> 
> There have no rifle tech/design breakthroughs that warrant a new service-wide rifle. Besides *the well-known manufacturers stayed away*. By the time Pakmil decides on a rifle the world will have moved on to newer and better things such as caseless ammo and new cartridges - mainly the 6.0 and 6.5mm. Right now Pakmil can get by with the modified type 56, g3s, and m4s. SF should just get OTS rifles. Invest in R&D, HR, and tooling.
> 
> The money can be better spent on comms, elops, and body armor. Those are the force multipliers where the pay-off will be huge.


Of the major rifle manufacturers, only HK failed to respond to Pakistan's bid, and that was due to HK pivoting away from non-NATO and non-Western markets as a whole. Otherwise, FN Herstal, Beretta, CZ and Kalashnikov showed up, and I'm not sure of many "well-known" manufacturers besides them. Also, I don't think there's a shift to 6.0 or 6.5 mm; the new rifle designs - e.g. HK433 - are focused on 5.56 NATO, 7.62 NATO and/or 7.62x39 mm.

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Yes SCAR is being adopted by USA Special Forces and there command and also by several other special forces around the world. You need to stop being blind to that instead of telling me


Are you for real? USSOCOM has *DISPOSED *SCAR and returned to AR Platform!! They will most likely go to HK416. SCAR is *NOT* being issued to their Spec Ops.



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Of the major rifle manufacturers, only HK failed to respond to Pakistan's bid, and that was due to HK pivoting away from non-NATO and non-Western markets as a whole. Otherwise, FN Herstal, Beretta, CZ and Kalashnikov showed up, and I'm not sure of many "well-known" manufacturers besides them. Also, I don't think there's a shift to 6.0 or 6.5 mm; the new rifle designs - e.g. HK433 - are focused on 5.56 NATO, 7.62 NATO and/or 7.62x39 mm.



I think there maybe a new soft spot for the 300Blackout as the USSOCOM has used it and favorable results have been obtained!! Will there be a change of calibre well it has been on the menu for a very long time as 556 has proven to be ineffective.

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Are you for real? USSOCOM has *DISPOSED *SCAR and returned to AR Platform!! They will most likely go to HK416. SCAR is *NOT* being issued to their Spec Ops.
> 
> 
> 
> I think there maybe a new soft spot for the 300Blackout as the USSOCOM has used it and favorable results have been obtained!! Will there be a change of calibre well it has been on the menu for a very long time as 556 has proven to be ineffective.


USSCOMM hasn't dropped SCAR and marines are going for HK 416


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> USSCOMM hasn't dropped SCAR and marines are going for HK 416


Are you sure Hazrat? Since the 00's SCAR has been less seen with them hell even the Rangers Battalion went back to AR! I have repeated this so many times.


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Are you sure Hazrat? Since the 00's SCAR has been less seen with them hell even the Rangers Battalion went back to AR! I have repeated this so many times.


SCAR H out performed M4 the only reason USA is not adopting more SCAR is the cost of inducting new weapon and than training there soldiers on that.


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## Zarvan

This company could have have given SCAR a heart attack but don't know why they didn't worked more on this Rifle series


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## That Guy

Zarvan said:


> We tested SCAR in every possible scenario if Peru and his people have so much issue they can bring what ever issue they have. People like you laugh because you failed to prove me wrong and SCAR won so keep laughing


There is still zero evidence to suggest any rifle has won, all we've gotten are clues as to which direction PA seems to be going, and it doesn't look good for FN.


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## Zarvan

That Guy said:


> There is still zero evidence to suggest any rifle has won, all we've gotten are clues as to which direction PA seems to be going, and it doesn't look good for FN.


PA is distributing SCAR manuals to officers and officers are being told that SCAR is the rifle


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## Army research

Zarvan said:


> PA is distributing SCAR manuals to officers and officers are being told that SCAR is the rifle




How could you possibly know ?


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## Arsalan

Army research said:


> How could you possibly know ?


Dont you know yet?
He uses Facbook man. 
Plus ge got a friend, (on facebook that is) who is a "journalist". 

As for manuals, they are not exactly like user manuals. Just a review brousher kind of thing and the best part is that similar paper on CZ Bern were there some 3 months ago and similar on HK gun was seen a year or so ago (and there gun is not trials).

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Zarvan said:


> PA is distributing SCAR manuals to officers and officers are being told that SCAR is the rifle



Zarvan I first saw Norinco rifles and "manuals" when I was in 4th grade and my father was a G2-SD.

Does that mean they are in service today?

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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> Dont you know yet?
> He uses Facbook man.
> Plus ge got a friend, (on facebook that is) who is a "journalist".
> 
> As for manuals, they are not exactly like user manuals. Just a review brousher kind of thing and the best part is that similar paper on CZ Bern were there some 3 months ago and similar on HK gun was seen a year or so ago (and there gun is not trials).


These manuals are given after Rifle gets selected, Rifle were being tested for one and a half year not a single manual was given now they are being given to officers and asked to study them. Also only of SCAR are being given


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> These manuals are given after Rifle gets selected, Rifle were being tested for one and a half year not a single manual was given now they are being given to officers and asked to study them. Also only of SCAR are being given


again this is only your say so and no way to verify it!!


Zarvan said:


> SCAR H out performed M4 the only reason USA is not adopting more SCAR is the cost of inducting new weapon and than training there soldiers on that.


 Hazrat how does H outperform M4 when they are in different calibres? H fires x51 and M4 556. How on earth is that in the same category and you haven't still answered the question? You are constantly making up fairy tales!


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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> These manuals are given after Rifle gets selected, Rifle were being tested for one and a half year not a single manual was given now they are being given to officers and asked to study them. Also only of SCAR are being given


Did you read the part in my post where i mentioned how similar CZ broushers were given some months back and even HK416 broushers some year or so ago? You may want to ask someone about this and if they are who they say they are they will know.


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## django

Zarvan said:


> SCAR H out performed M4 the only reason USA is not adopting more SCAR is the cost of inducting new weapon and than training there soldiers on that.


So the US which has a greater defence budget than the next 9 leading defence spending nations combined is vary of the cost yet us folks with our stagnant economic situation can somehow afford the cost,,,,Hazrat Sahib

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## Zarvan

django said:


> So the US which has a greater defence budget than the next 9 leading defence spending nations combined is vary of the cost yet us folks with our stagnant economic situation can somehow afford the cost,,,,Hazrat Sahib


This is what they say and I have same question as you have where they spend there budget


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## django

Zarvan said:


> This is what they say and I have same question as you have where they spend there budget


Initially Hazrat your optimism for the SCAR had me won over, I too was almost as keen as you are, however in recent weeks more and more info is emerging that the SCAR is not what you have made it out to be, the recent posts by the Peruvian chap reinforces the view of @Path-Finder and co,,,I think it is better for you if you abandon this infatuation with this weapon which has accuracy, reliability and fiscal concerns, the latter issue is not my primary concern as I want my jawans to have the finest rifle in their hands yet concerns about SCAR being bulky, inaccurate and unreliable ( see Peruvuian helicopter crash post) have me going

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## Zarvan

django said:


> Initially Hazrat your optimism for the SCAR had me won over, I too was almost as keen as you are, however in recent weeks more and more info is emerging that the SCAR is not what you have made it out to be, the recent posts by the Peruvian chap reinforces the view of @Path-Finder and co,,,I think it is better for you if you abandon this infatuation with this weapon which has accuracy, reliability and fiscal concerns, the latter issue is not my primary concern as I want my jawans to have the finest rifle in their hands yet concerns about SCAR being bulky, inaccurate and unreliable ( see Peruvuian helicopter crash post) have me going


SCAR is is great weapon and it passed all our tests we and India have the toughest conditions from -50 to 50 C we tested it in all conditions and also other tests like endurance test and other test so ask Peru guys what they did. It was accurate as hell and passed all the tests again if Peru needs to tell where SCAR failed because we did all tests and it passed all tests


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## django

Zarvan said:


> SCAR is is great weapon and it passed all our tests we and India have the toughest conditions from -50 to 50 C we tested it in all conditions and also other tests like endurance test and other test so ask Peru guys what they did. It was accurate as hell and passed all the tests again if Peru needs to tell where SCAR failed because we did all tests and it passed all tests


So in other words............ SCAR is the best performing rifle in Trials


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## Zarvan

django said:


> So in other words............ SCAR is the best performing rifle in Trials


It passed all our tests and we tested all rifles in worst possible situations which no other country does except for India. So your laughing doesn't matter


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## Path-Finder

django said:


> Initially Hazrat your optimism for the SCAR had me won over, I too was almost as keen as you are, however in recent weeks more and more info is emerging that the SCAR is not what you have made it out to be, the recent posts by the Peruvian chap reinforces the view of @Path-Finder and co,,,I think it is better for you if you abandon this infatuation with this weapon which has accuracy, reliability and fiscal concerns, the latter issue is not my primary concern as I want my jawans to have the finest rifle in their hands yet concerns about SCAR being bulky, inaccurate and unreliable ( see Peruvuian helicopter crash post) have me going


Congrats as you have now joined the SCAR haters club. The unrelenting SCAR mania is beyond understanding. Hazrat has no bearings at all on the issue which sloshes all over the place. I asked Hazrat if he can explain the reason behind USSOCOM dropping SCAR and returning to AR rifles and response we get! because they cannot afford it? They were using them on lease? strange that Pentagon is so broke they were leasing SCAR from FN. This is Rangers Battalion with SCAR at some event





Now they are using AR rifles again!!

Peru is quite interesting because it is a Very Very Rugged country High Altitude Mountains with Jungle as well. From a helicopter crash only the Galil survives which is israeli AK! At 4K a rifle that is a huge loss. @El Fuego pointed this out and claims to have experience with SCAR H which we are testing! Rest I let Hazrat tell us how glorious SCAR is.

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## django

Zarvan said:


> *It passed all our tests* and we tested all rifles in worst possible situations which no other country does except for India. So your laughing doesn't matter


So you say Hazrat sahib yet not an iota of evidence to back your now spurious claims!


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## Rafi

Regarding tests, Hazrat is misleading everyone, all the finalists in the competition had the ability to win. 

Except the PA will choice the one that offers the BEST ToT, price and future collaboration in upgrades and tech, that is hands down, currently CZ.


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## Zarvan

Rafi said:


> Regarding tests, Hazrat is misleading everyone, all the finalists in the competition had the ability to win.
> 
> Except the PA will choice the one that offers the BEST ToT, price and future collaboration in upgrades and tech, that is hands down, currently CZ.


Your CZ failed the endurance test and Beretta ARX 200 had accuracy issues

@Horus


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## Path-Finder

Rafi said:


> Regarding tests, Hazrat is misleading everyone, all the finalists in the competition had the ability to win.
> 
> Except the PA will choice the one that offers the BEST ToT, price and future collaboration in upgrades and tech, that is hands down, currently CZ.


Apparently CZ cheated by replacing parts and it exploded as well. Hazrat said Beretta tried to bribe POF?? not sure what to believe.


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## django

Path-Finder said:


> Congrats as you have now joined the SCAR haters club. The unrelenting SCAR mania is beyond understanding. Hazrat has no bearings at all on the issue which sloshes all over the place. I asked Hazrat if he can explain the reason behind USSOCOM dropping SCAR and returning to AR rifles and response we get! because they cannot afford it? They were using them on lease? strange that Pentagon is so broke they were leasing SCAR from FN. This is Rangers Battalion with SCAR at some event
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now they are using AR rifles again!!
> 
> Peru is quite interesting because it is a Very Very Rugged country High Altitude Mountains with Jungle as well. From a helicopter crash only the Galil survives which is israeli AK! At 4K a rifle that is a huge loss. @El Fuego pointed this out and claims to have experience with SCAR H which we are testing! Rest I let Hazrat tell us how glorious SCAR is.


Their are way too many unanswered questions by the esteemed Hazrat and the more scrutiny the SCAR is receiving the more I go. I too have a feeling it will be eliminated from the trials if it has not already done so, I get the feeling the army will postpone their decision as G3 is accurate and reliable enough and type 56 kitted out is a soldiers dream, we may be gathering data from these tests for some future upgrade,,, now wouldn't that break the Hazrats heart

SCAR is the best performing rifle in Trials

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## Rafi

Zarvan said:


> Your CZ failed the endurance test and Beretta ARX 200 had accuracy issues
> 
> @Horus



Hazrat I am afraid someone is trolling you, as of now SCAR has little chance of winning the tender. Unless they can offer something revolutionary.



Path-Finder said:


> Apparently CZ cheated by replacing parts and it exploded as well. Hazrat said Beretta tried to bribe POF?? not sure what to believe.



Complete and utter bollocks.

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## Zarvan

Rafi said:


> Hazrat I am afraid someone is trolling you, as of now SCAR has little chance of winning the tender. Unless they can offer something revolutionary.
> 
> 
> 
> Complete and utter bollocks.


SCAR has already pretty much won the game. At IDEX 2017 there were given green signal and final talks with them have begun CZ and Beretta both are pretty much out both not only had issues but also tried to play dirty your POF chairman was removed for a reason try to find out yourself why


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## Rafi

Zarvan said:


> SCAR has already pretty much won the game. At IDEX 2017 there were given green signal and final talks with them have begun CZ and Beretta both are pretty much out both not only had issues but also tried to play dirty your POF chairman was removed for a reason try to find out yourself why



SCAR is far too expensive and not offering enough ToT for us, there is little chance of it winning, unless and until they offer something huge.

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## Zarvan

Rafi said:


> SCAR is far too expensive and not offering enough ToT for us, there is little chance of it winning, unless and until they offer something huge.


They are offering full TOT and also permission to export all the rumours they are not offering full TOT are big BS. There guy who leading Pakistan project has rejected all the reports that they are not offering full TOT they are offering full TOT and permission to export. In fact we are also discussing minimi with them and may be there handguns also come


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## pzfz

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Of the major rifle manufacturers, only HK failed to respond to Pakistan's bid, and that was due to HK pivoting away from non-NATO and non-Western markets as a whole. Otherwise, FN Herstal, Beretta, CZ and Kalashnikov showed up, and I'm not sure of many "well-known" manufacturers besides them. Also, I don't think there's a shift to 6.0 or 6.5 mm; the new rifle designs - e.g. HK433 - are focused on 5.56 NATO, 7.62 NATO and/or 7.62x39 mm.



HK, Colt, SIG, Remington, Bushmaster, Daewoo, Norinco, FAMAE...US is actively looking for a newer round and is researching caseless ammo. The HK433 is not intended for the military market.

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## Path-Finder

Kitten said:


> About SCAR? Don't know. But the USMC is adopting the HK416, just not as an infantry rifle. They're retaining the M4 for that role.
> 
> In the USMC, the M249 light machine gun is partially being replaced with the M27 IAR, a light support variant of the HK416.





Rafi said:


> SCAR is far too expensive and not offering enough ToT for us, there is little chance of it winning, unless and until they offer something huge.


 Welcome to SCAR haters Club Gents and enjoy your membership!

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## Rafi

Unless they offer something like CZ, long-term relationship with future development and upgrades.

FN are refusing to provide that and also their rifle has a number of short comings, and the PA would want those ironed out, and also a large discount on economies of scale, which FN is also reluctant to do.

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## pzfz

Zarvan said:


> USSCOMM hasn't dropped SCAR and marines are going for HK 416



All US military branches and services have stopped fielding 5.56 SCARs (scar-l/mk16). They have been put into storage and/or training purposes only. 762 SCARs (mk17/scar-h) were preferred but ALL additional SCAR procurement has been stopped. Additional procurement only for maintaining stock levels. 

Newer orders are going to HK (both 416 and 417).

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## Zarvan

Rafi said:


> Unless they offer something like CZ, long-term relationship with future development and upgrades.
> 
> FN are refusing to provide that and also their rifle has a number of short comings, and the PA would want those ironed out, and also a large discount on economies of scale, which FN is also reluctant to do.


SCAR passed all tests neither did CZ nor BREN so so called short comings were in other Rifles and they are offering full TOT and permission to export


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## Path-Finder

Rafi said:


> Unless they offer something like CZ, long-term relationship with future development and upgrades.
> 
> FN are refusing to provide that and also their rifle has a number of short comings, and the PA would want those ironed out, and also a large discount on economies of scale, which FN is also reluctant to do.


Unless I am wrong FN have not made a updated SCAR at all Like CZ made BREN 806 based on feedback from troops! As the Colombian chap pointed out FN have very poor customer service!



pzfz said:


> All US military branches and services have stopped fielding 5.56 SCARs (scar-l/mk16). They have been put into storage and/or training purposes only. 762 SCARs (mk17/scar-h) were preferred but ALL additional SCAR procurement has been stopped. Additional procurement only for maintaining stock levels.
> 
> Newer orders are going to HK (both 416 and 417).


That is what I and the Colombian chap said . SCAR is now being removed from active troops and replaced with HK very soon. by the way, welcome to SCAR haters club

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## Rafi

Zarvan said:


> SCAR passed all tests neither did CZ nor BREN so so called short comings were in other Rifles and they are offering full TOT and permission to export



Trust me there are a number of technical deficiencies in the rifle, even if the PA was favourably inclined, it would not purchase the rifle without them being ironed out.



Path-Finder said:


> Unless I am wrong FN have not made a updated SCAR at all Like CZ made BREN 806 based on feedback from troops! As the Colombian chap pointed out FN have very poor customer service!
> 
> That is what I and the Colombian chap said . SCAR is now being removed from active troops and replaced with HK very soon. by the way, welcome to SCAR haters club



In fact they have a totally arrogant attitude, when the PA pointed out somethings, they were very hesitant to address them. Only when it looked like they were loosing did they make an effort.

Another thing if the rifle is too crap and expensive for the US, why does Hazrat think it is good for us?

The Yanks get totally fleesed by defence contractors, billions of dollars of the defence budget unnaccounted for, end up paying 1000 dollars for toilet seats etc.

If they are reluctant about the cost, God help us.

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## Sage

Rafi said:


> Trust me there are a number of technical deficiencies in the rifle, even if the PA was favourably inclined, it would not purchase the rifle without them being ironed out.
> 
> 
> 
> In fact they have a totally arrogant attitude, when the PA pointed out somethings, they were very hesitant to address them. Only when it looked like they were loosing did they make an effort.
> 
> Another thing if the rifle is too crap and expensive for the US, why does Hazrat think it is good for us?
> 
> The Yanks get totally fleesed by defence contractors, billions of dollars of the defence budget unnaccounted for, end up paying 1000 dollars for toilet seats etc.
> 
> If they are reluctant about the cost, God help us.


What were those shortcoming pointed out by the PA ?


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## pzfz

not a scar hater, though i absolutely loathe its looks. neither guns are the end all be all. i've shot both (well the 805 and scar-l). SCAR simply isn't worth it, maybe for special forces. the 805 was a plastic pos, but incredibly smooth - smoother than the scar. lighter recoil, i can see why it probably failed the stress and burn tests though.

was rooting for an ak variant - the zastava m77/21bs. really really reaching for the fins or denel to enter with their rk95 or r4 variants. cheap, reliable, and simple enough for our troops.

the best rifle i've ever shot is the robinson xcr. loved it. too bad they're not big enough - would've likely won the ussocom trials if it wasn't for some entry compliance issues (ubgl).

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## Rafi

Sage said:


> What were those shortcoming pointed out by the PA ?



Read Kittens post above, all the points you need to know.

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## MystryMan

Rafi said:


> Read Kittens post above, all the points you need to know.


So Scar is more hyped then what it actually is? We are misled big time by the other club (Scar lovers)


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## fitpOsitive

I think even when POF chose G-3, it was not the best at that time either. If SCAR is not the best, even that doesn't make it unfit for the next service rifle of PA. 
BTW my sixth sense is telling me that next rifle be coming from Italy or Russia, not Belgium.

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## Path-Finder

Kitten said:


> Invitation declined. I don't hate SCAR. Do I think it would have been the best choice should Norway have floated a tender? No, I don't (and I don't think it's the best option for Pakistan either). But Norway never got a chance to test it against the HK416 or HK417.
> 
> SCAR first showed up in 2004, but only just entered a limited production run in 2007, to trial the rifle and work out some problematic ticks. By that time Norway had already selected the HK416 as its main service rifle to replace the AG3. SCAR's problems weren't resolved until 2009, and it still has occasional issues like bolt seizure or frame cracking in cold climates - the HK416 had these issues too, but a Norwegianized, Winterized variant called HK416N applied fixes to the base design to make it more suitable to cold climates. The HK416K carbine also applies these fixes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The rifles, HK416 variants and HK417 have gone on to serve in the Indian Ocean, in Mali in support of UN operations, Libya, Syria and Iraq where Norwegian special forces and police and military trainers continue to operate, Afghanistan, the Balkans and Baltics and Norway itself. They work in the cold, the hot, the high altitude, the humid and all conditions one would need a rifle to work in.
> 
> While USSOCOM adopted the rifle (all variants) in 2004, it was to trial it in-field, same as what Norway's KJK did with the HK417 in 2007 (shown below). USSOCOM didn't field the rifle until 2007 and didn't formally accept the rifle as operational until 2009 after extensive testing. They then dropped the lighter SCAR-L, retained the SCAR-H (with a conversion kit), but don't plan to continue to procure either type.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rather then hate SCAR, I feel that because of its problematic development and ongoing problems it wouldn't have been the best rifle for the Norwegian Armed Services, especially given Norway selected its primary arm a full two years before SCAR was officially operational.
> 
> SCAR wasn't given a chance to prove itself in Norway and I have my suspicions it wouldn't have measured up to the HK416 or HK417 anyway given its complicated history. Unlike the HK models, SCAR variants still have cold weather performance issues.



you have outlined everything beautifully and there is nothing I can add to it. As for membership to the club it's just a running gag we have.

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## Vergennes

Path-Finder said:


> you have outlined everything beautifully and there is nothing I can add to it. As for membership to the club it's just a running gag we have.



I would like to be part of that club. But hating the Scar means hating FN. Hating FN means hating Wallonia. Hating Wallonia means hating Belgium. Hating Belgium means hating the EU construction and unity. So...

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## Path-Finder

Vergennes said:


> I would like to be part of that club. But hating the Scar means hating FN. Hating FN means hating Wallonia. Hating Wallonia means hating Belgium. Hating Belgium means hating the EU construction and unity. So...


You automatically gained the membership when you declined SCAR for HK which is very naughty

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## PWFI

Vergennes said:


> I would like to be part of that club. But hating the Scar means hating FN. Hating FN means hating Wallonia. Hating Wallonia means hating Belgium. Hating Belgium means hating the EU construction and unity. So...


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## pzfz

Vergennes said:


> I would like to be part of that club. But hating the Scar means hating FN. Hating FN means hating Wallonia. Hating Wallonia means hating Belgium. Hating Belgium means hating the EU construction and unity. So...



flanders to the netherlands, walloonia to france.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

After "Everybody loves Raymond"

This thread should be called;

"Everybody hates SCAR".

ThankyouZarvan#



pzfz said:


> flanders to the netherlands, walloonia to france.



Chichukimalian to Thatha.

Shigar to Sibbi.

Muzzafarabad to Parachinar.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

pzfz said:


> HK, Colt, SIG, Remington, Bushmaster, Daewoo, Norinco, FAMAE...US is actively looking for a newer round and is researching caseless ammo. The HK433 is not intended for the military market.


I stand corrected, but a fair number of major OEMs responded. Also, aren't Colt, Remington and Bushmaster based out of the US? That could be a factor on them not showing up, especially with Pakistan's ToT and re-marketing/sales needs.


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## That Guy

Zarvan said:


> PA is distributing SCAR manuals to officers and officers are being told that SCAR is the rifle


Unless we can get a reliable verification, I remain skeptical.


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## django

fitpOsitive said:


> I think *even when POF chose G-3, it was not the best at that time either*. If SCAR is not the best, even that doesn't make it unfit for the next service rifle of PA.
> BTW my sixth sense is telling me that next rifle be coming from Italy or Russia, not Belgium.


Indeed I remember one of the senior members Blain mentioning this a few years back, apparently the M-16 performed the best and was the preferred weapon though for political and financial reasons G-3 was selected.

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## pzfz

django said:


> Indeed I remember one of the senior members Blain mentioning this a few years back, apparently the M-16 performed the best and was the preferred weapon though for political and financial reasons G-3 was selected.



g3 is the round that was needed. one can quibble whether the FAL could've been chosen.


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## Zarvan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I stand corrected, but a fair number of major OEMs responded. Also, aren't Colt, Remington and Bushmaster based out of the US? That could be a factor on them not showing up, especially with Pakistan's ToT and re-marketing/sales needs.


Even if SCAR gets selected we have massive Police Force to equip and also we have much bigger market to cover I think we should look for two more Rifle series if we can get export permission for them and produce them in Pakistan. We can earn billions if we offer Range


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## ziaulislam

Zarvan said:


> Even if SCAR gets selected we have massive Police Force to equip and also we have much bigger market to cover I think we should look for two more Rifle series if we can get export permission for them and produce them in Pakistan. We can earn billions if we offer Range


I believe if we are going to go for a universal rifle, look to co produce on ewith foreign vendors on pakistani specs as JV


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## ali_raza

django said:


> Indeed I remember one of the senior members Blain mentioning this a few years back, apparently the M-16 performed the best and was the preferred weapon though for political and financial reasons G-3 was selected.


what year it was and can u shed more light on this matter


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## Super Falcon

Heckler Koch 417 suits all types of needs


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## Zarvan

Super Falcon said:


> Heckler Koch 417 suits all types of needs


For last time I am telling you HK-417 didn't come because Germany doesn't allow its companies to sell weapons to non NATO countries. How many times we have to tell you that ??????????

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## SQ8

The selection will happen post Q2 and all folks here will continue to claim to have the inside scoop; which is rather dirty and puts the brass in a bad light.

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## Zarvan

Oscar said:


> The selection will happen post Q2 and all folks here will continue to claim to have the inside scoop; which is rather dirty and puts the brass in a bad light.


W


Oscar said:


> The selection will happen post Q2 and all folks here will continue to claim to have the inside scoop; which is rather dirty and puts the brass in a bad light.


What you said ?


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## SQ8

Zarvan said:


> W
> 
> What you said ?


Q-2 , second half of the year


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## Zarvan

Oscar said:


> Q-2 , second half of the year


Okay we will see than


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## django

ali_raza said:


> what year it was and can u shed more light on this matter


I should imagine sometime in the 70s and I was referring too comments made by a senior member who has retired from the forum, he really new his stuff as they say.Kudos



Zarvan said:


> For last time I am telling you HK-417 didn't come because Germany doesn't allow its companies to sell weapons to non NATO countries. How many times we have to tell you that ??????????


On this we can agree as their is ample evidence to back your claim.

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## Reichsmarschall

so which rifle are we going to buy ??
@Zarvan


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## Path-Finder

Narendra Trump said:


> so which rifle are we going to buy ??
> @Zarvan


Mosin Nagant


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## Reichsmarschall

Path-Finder said:


> Mosin Nagant


????


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## Zarvan

Narendra Trump said:


> so which rifle are we going to buy ??
> @Zarvan


Till now all sources are suggesting that G3 will be replaced by SCAR H confusion is about which rifle will replace Type 56. I am also worried that Pakistan may only produce SCAR although I consider SCAR the best weapon but we have Police Force to equip also and we have major market in Africa and other countries so we should produce at least two rifle series in Pakistan.

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## Reichsmarschall

Zarvan said:


> Till now all sources are suggesting that G3 will be replaced by SCAR H confusion is about which rifle will replace Type 56. I am also worried that Pakistan may only produce SCAR although I consider SCAR the best weapon but we have Police Force to equip also and we have major market in Africa and other countries so we should produce at least two rifle series in Pakistan.


Is this Scar H or some other version??


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## Zarvan

Narendra Trump said:


> Is this Scar H or some other version??
> View attachment 389985
> View attachment 389987


Infantry Guys will get SCAR H Special forces will get SCAR L also but we would also produce Sniper versions of SCAR but it would start with SCAR H

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## Path-Finder

Narendra Trump said:


> ????


little surprised you asking Hazrat, for him SCAR was a winner over a year ago .

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## django

Path-Finder said:


> little surprised you asking Hazrat, for him SCAR was a winner over a year ago .


Now he is advocating the highly inaccurate SCAR L for SSG, God help our spec ops.

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## Rafi

CZ have made a very tasty offer, if it pans out this could be the clincher.

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## Sage

I feel like we are going to place an order at Izmash telling them to make an AK that could chamber 7.62 ....


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## SQ8

@Horus 
This reminds me of this

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## Arsalan

Oscar said:


> @Horus
> This reminds me of this
> View attachment 390045


Really?
Strange!
Because for me, it reminds me of this (at least it is beginning to)

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## Path-Finder

Rafi said:


> CZ have made a very tasty offer, if it pans out this could be the clincher.


Does it include MeOpta optics Scorpion SMG and CZ P10C??


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## Zarvan

django said:


> Now he is advocating the highly inaccurate SCAR L for SSG, God help our spec ops.


We have tested both calibers and we are satisfied with both calibers so please give me a break of not being accurate. In USA accuracy was not the issue in fact it was better than M4 but there issue is the difference between M4 and this in performance was not that bigger they wanted much more advanced thing. Than SCAR came up with 7.62 caliber and asked to check that


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> We have tested both calibers and we are satisfied with both calibers so please give me a break of not being accurate. In USA accuracy was not the issue in fact it was better than M4 but there issue is the difference between M4 and this in performance was not that bigger they wanted much more advanced thing. Than SCAR came up with 7.62 caliber and asked to check that


What nonsense Hazrat. If the Accuracy was superior to M4 then why did they ditch SCAR and return to M4? Even 7.62 DMR is based on AR platform now, we KEEP repeating FACTS that SCAR is NO longer being pursued by any nation to other than few rifles in service. 

You come up with incredible fairy tales as if you have money invested in FN SCAR? US has more money to spend on defence then Pakistan will have in 100 years so please come tell us a better reason.

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> What nonsense Hazrat. If the Accuracy was superior to M4 then why did they ditch SCAR and return to M4? Even 7.62 DMR is based on AR platform now, we KEEP repeating FACTS that SCAR is NO longer being pursued by any nation to other than few rifles in service.
> 
> You come up with incredible fairy tales as if you have money invested in FN SCAR? US has more money to spend on defence then Pakistan will have in 100 years so please come tell us a better reason.


Like I said cost issues they say they have budget issues. Nobody ditched SCAR go check your facts again


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Like I said cost issues they say they have budget issues. Nobody ditched SCAR go check your facts again


prove it? the US has monetary issues? that is laughable when we don't?

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> prove it? the US has monetary issues? that is laughable when we don't?


Go read it yourself they always tell cost issue and that SCAR is expensive they are cutting soldiers due to same reason you laugh yes because we rightly question where they spend there budget but they tell there people same thing


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Go read it yourself they always tell cost issue and that SCAR is expensive they are cutting soldiers due to same reason you laugh yes because we rightly question where they spend there budget but they tell there people same thing


that is not an answer Hazrat. they are can't afford it but we can? its their Spe Ops that ditched it and HK is cheaper? what nonsense!!!

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> that is not an answer Hazrat. they are can't afford it but we can? its their Spe Ops that ditched it and HK is cheaper? what nonsense!!!




http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/aug/19/armys-quits-tests-after-competing-rifle-outperform/

This is for your mind still you will not get it



Path-Finder said:


> that is not an answer Hazrat. they are can't afford it but we can? its their Spe Ops that ditched it and HK is cheaper? what nonsense!!!


You think USA is clean country no they are not


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Path-Finder said:


> Does it include MeOpta optics Scorpion SMG and CZ P10C??


We haven't heard much about accessories. Any idea if the Pakistan Army asked for optics and UGBLs as well? It would make sense to have those manufactured under license in Pakistan. In fact, license manufacturing reflexive sights might be an interesting avenue for Shibli Electronics.

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## Super Falcon

Zarvan said:


> For last time I am telling you HK-417 didn't come because Germany doesn't allow its companies to sell weapons to non NATO countries. How many times we have to tell you that ??????????


As many times I ask for it hahaha well Germany is selling EF 2000 to ksa it's just a rifle what u think about replacing old no 5 and Machine gun of ww 2 in Pak army whynot AR 12 Pak army considering any reasons


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## Zarvan

Super Falcon said:


> As many times I ask for it hahaha well Germany is selling EF 2000 to ksa it's just a rifle what u think about replacing old no 5 and Machine gun of ww 2 in Pak army whynot AR 12 Pak army considering any reasons


It's UK which is selling EF 2000 not Germany and yes HK didn't came due to stopping of German Government and they are also not going to other non NATO countries



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> We haven't heard much about accessories. Any idea if the Pakistan Army asked for optics and UGBLs as well? It would make sense to have those manufactured under license in Pakistan. In fact, license manufacturing reflexive sights might be an interesting avenue for Shibli Electronics.


For Optics and Grenade Launcher we would go to Turkey also for helmets


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/aug/19/armys-quits-tests-after-competing-rifle-outperform/
> 
> This is for your mind still you will not get it
> 
> 
> You think USA is clean country no they are not


Hazrat *you* are not getting it!! IF it is a platform in use from 2004 to 2009~ then why did they drop it and return to M4. Who is that stupid to supposedly retire a new weapons platform which apparently is superior? Not me but many members have pointed this out yet you are still acting like a FN SCAR salesman!!!



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> We haven't heard much about accessories. Any idea if the Pakistan Army asked for optics and UGBLs as well? It would make sense to have those manufactured under license in Pakistan. In fact, license manufacturing reflexive sights might be an interesting avenue for Shibli Electronics.


I hope it includes MeOpta as part of the deal. their optics are top of the class, the testing in Balochistan and during IDEAS it was jointly marketed so if it is part of the package then its really a steal.



Zarvan said:


> Go read it yourself they always tell cost issue and that SCAR is expensive they are cutting soldiers due to same reason you laugh yes because we rightly question where they spend there budget but they tell there people same thing

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## Tiger Awan

Zarvan said:


> Like I said cost issues they say they have budget issues. Nobody ditched SCAR go check your facts again



So your theory is that Pakistan is going to order 1 million or more with ToT of the same gun that US army found too expensive ??

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## django

Zarvan said:


> We have tested both calibers and we are satisfied with both calibers so please give me a break of not being accurate. In USA accuracy was not the issue in fact it was better than M4 but there issue is the difference between M4 and this in performance was not that bigger they wanted much more advanced thing. Than SCAR came up with 7.62 caliber and asked to check that


So the Yanks discarded an superior rifle to switch back to an inferior weapon, and all because SCAR was only minimally better, yeah sure Hazrat.


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat *you* are not getting it!! IF it is a platform in use from 2004 to 2009~ then why did they drop it and return to M4. Who is that stupid to supposedly retire a new weapons platform which apparently is superior? Not me but many members have pointed this out yet you are still acting like a FN SCAR salesman!!!
> 
> 
> I hope it includes MeOpta as part of the deal. their optics are top of the class, the testing in Balochistan and during IDEAS it was jointly marketed so if it is part of the package then its really a steal.


One major reason is SCAR was designed specially for there Special Forces and to meet there special forces requirement so they are the only one inducting it. When infantry started the trials after few months USA army quashed them despite the fact that M4 was outperformed by at least two to three rifles. Still you question them the answer which most was given was that most Guns were better than M4 but not that much better secondly getting new rifle and training people on it was too much cost. And Bren Guys are pretty much out



django said:


> So the Yanks discarded an superior rifle to switch back to an inferior weapon, and all because SCAR was only minimally better, yeah sure Hazrat.


Yes they are sticking to M4 due to cost issue if you don't follow western media this is what they have told them if you don't bother to do research or study I can do nothing about it. SCAR L was better than M4



Tiger Awan said:


> So your theory is that Pakistan is going to order 1 million or more with ToT of the same gun that US army found too expensive ??


Yes we are getting them and USA has other issues and if you think they are not corrupt they are massively corrupt many of there soldiers are busy selling weapons to Taliban and export drugs to USA so please stop giving me example of USA you may consider it dream world I don't

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## Rafi

Path-Finder said:


> Does it include MeOpta optics Scorpion SMG and CZ P10C??



It is a comprehensive offer, that's all I will say.

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> One major reason is SCAR was designed specially for there Special Forces and to meet there special forces requirement so they are the only one inducting it. When infantry started the trials after few months USA army quashed them despite the fact that M4 was outperformed by at least two to three rifles. Still you question them the answer which most was given was that most Guns were better than M4 but not that much better secondly getting new rifle and training people on it was too much cost. And Bren Guys are pretty much out
> 
> 
> Yes they are sticking to M4 due to cost issue if you don't follow western media this is what they have told them if you don't bother to do research or study I can do nothing about it. SCAR L was better than M4
> 
> 
> Yes we are getting them and USA has other issues and if you think they are not corrupt they are massively corrupt many of there soldiers are busy selling weapons to Taliban and export drugs to USA so please stop giving me example of USA you may consider it dream world I don't


Hazrat I rate your imagination its vivid. Their Special Forces used them in combat decade before Pakistan started trials and shelved the weapon out of active service before the rifle began trials in Pakistan. Yet!! It is a good weapon....

This SCAR was so great that they had to return to a inferior platform all because of cost!! is the most laughable reasoning given. You cannot bring yourself to admitting that there maybe something wrong with the weapon just because it passes the trials it doesn't mean its perfect. But it matters not to you will make an excuse for anything and everything. 

SCAR was made for special forces BUT it didn't make in impact globally as AR platform still reigns supreme. That is the truth. 

Hazrat did you participate or Observe the SCAR trials in the US? you seem to know the outcome? your sources reach that far?

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat I rate your imagination its vivid. Their Special Forces used them in combat decade before Pakistan started trials and shelved the weapon out of active service before the rifle began trials in Pakistan. Yet!! It is a good weapon....
> 
> This SCAR was so great that they had to return to a inferior platform all because of cost!! is the most laughable reasoning given. You cannot bring yourself to admitting that there maybe something wrong with the weapon just because it passes the trials it doesn't mean its perfect. But it matters not to you will make an excuse for anything and everything.
> 
> SCAR was made for special forces BUT it didn't make in impact globally as AR platform still reigns supreme. That is the truth.
> 
> Hazrat did you participate or Observe the SCAR trials in the US? you seem to know the outcome? your sources reach that far?


The cost reason is given by there Army they have told this reason to washington post and all the other journals so go do some reasearch before asking me


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## Tiger Awan

Zarvan said:


> Yes we are getting them and USA has other issues and *if you think they are not corrupt they are massively corrupt many of there soldiers are busy selling weapons to Taliban and export drugs* to USA so please stop giving me example of USA you may consider it dream world I don't


All of this has nothing to do with performance of SCAR and switching to another platform by the US. Dont come up with made up theories please.

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> The cost reason is given by there Army they have told this reason to washington post and all the other journals so go do some reasearch before asking me


Hazrat, please think for a second. SCAR was made for US spec ops as per requirements. They adopted it I even told you the years of service 2004 to 2009~. Now pentagon is so broke they can't afford it for their spec ops? 

Here we are arming upto a million personal with a weapon that no longer serves the country it was made for. What a way to cheer lead Hazrat. SCAR is becoming a lost cause and the US didn't drop it for cost either. 

What was the cost that they couldn't afford to keep just their spec ops equipped with this rifle?

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## Awan68

Path-Finder said:


> prove it? the US has monetary issues? that is laughable when we don't?


Lol now hazrats syndicate has informed him that the Us has cost issues,, how does one even begin to reply to such elevated wisdom...

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## Awan68

Zarvan said:


> One major reason is SCAR was designed specially for there Special Forces and to meet there special forces requirement so they are the only one inducting it. When infantry started the trials after few months USA army quashed them despite the fact that M4 was outperformed by at least two to three rifles. Still you question them the answer which most was given was that most Guns were better than M4 but not that much better secondly getting new rifle and training people on it was too much cost. And Bren Guys are pretty much out
> 
> 
> Yes they are sticking to M4 due to cost issue if you don't follow western media this is what they have told them if you don't bother to do research or study I can do nothing about it. SCAR L was better than M4
> 
> 
> Yes we are getting them and USA has other issues and if you think they are not corrupt they are massively corrupt many of there soldiers are busy selling weapons to Taliban and export drugs to USA so please stop giving me example of USA you may consider it dream world I don't


What does corruption have to do with their military budget, thier budget is more than the rest of the world combined, let that sink in hazrat, ur syndicate is fighting for a lost cause, dont ever accuse the yanks of having budget constraints lol, they spend more on r n d of stuff they dont actually need and eventually cancel than our entire budget...

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## Zarvan

Tiger Awan said:


> All of this has nothing to do with performance of SCAR and switching to another platform by the US. Dont come up with made up theories please.


I am not coming up with any made up theory M4 was outperformed even by SCAR L. Army did the trials and M4 was outperformed but they stopped the trials after that bringing cost issues and other factors



Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat, please think for a second. SCAR was made for US spec ops as per requirements. They adopted it I even told you the years of service 2004 to 2009~. Now pentagon is so broke they can't afford it for their spec ops?
> 
> Here we are arming upto a million personal with a weapon that no longer serves the country it was made for. What a way to cheer lead Hazrat. SCAR is becoming a lost cause and the US didn't drop it for cost either.
> 
> What was the cost that they couldn't afford to keep just their spec ops equipped with this rifle?


I have thought for months and did my research which you fail to do



Awan68 said:


> Lol now hazrats syndicate has informed him that the Us has cost issues,, how does one even begin to reply to such elevated wisdom...


Go bother to read media coverage of this issue by USA media every paper is told few things of not going for new Rifle one of them is cost. Ask them where they spent there 600 billion dollars budget not me

*Army quits tests after competing rifle outperforms M4A1 carbine*




munitions: National Guard Sgt. Larry J. Isbell fires at targets with his M4A1 carbine rifle. The Army is looking to phase out the longstanding weapon, but the potential suppliers to do so, as well as the competition results, remain shrouded ... more >

 View CommentsRowan Scarborough - The Washington Times - Tuesday, August 19, 2014
*EXCLUSIVE:*

A competing rifle outperformed the Army’s favored M4A1 carbine in key firings during a competition last year before the service abruptly called off the tests and stuck with its gun, according to a new confidential report.

The report also says the Army changed the ammunition midstream to a round “tailored” for the M4A1 rifle. It quoted competing companies as saying the switch was unfair because they did not have enough time to fire the new ammo and redesign their rifles before the tests began.



Exactly how the eight challengers — and the M4 — performed in a shootout to replace the M4, a soldier’s most important personal defense, has been shrouded in secrecy.

But an “official use only report” by the Center for Naval Analyses shows that one of the eight unidentified weapons outperformed the M4 on reliability and on the number of rounds fired before the most common type of failures, or stoppages, occurred, according to data obtained by The Washington Times.

The Army did not respond to The Times. At the time, the Army explained the cancellation by saying none of the eight showed a huge improvement over the M4. In the past, the Army, with an inventory of 500,000 M4s, has defended the carbine as reliable, accurate and popular among the large majority of soldiers. It has been upgraded throughout the war on terror to improve its magazine, barrel and sights.


SPONSORED CONTENT


Congress pressed the Army to hold the shootout in the face of mounting criticism from soldiers that the M4 is unreliable. The M4 is perhaps the most deployed weapon system in the war on terror — essential firepower in combating the Taliban, al Qaeda and other insurgents at close range during raids and firefights.

The Times earlier this year published a two-part series on the M4 revealing that, as the war on terror began, the carbine flunked several reliability tests when subjected to rapid fire. The Times spoke with soldiers who had used the M4 in intense combat. They said the magazine is tinny and subject to jamming. The gun itself requires constant cleaning. One Green Beret said he and his colleagues, once in theater, rebuild the gun with better parts.

The CNA report shows that one competing gun outperformed all other competitors, including the M4, on some key tests. The results show there was a potentially better gun for soldiers.

Army to say none of the weapons passed the test,” said a U.S. official critical of how the Army buys small arms. “It was true, but it was extremely misleading. They set the requirements for the mean round between failure at around 3,000 rounds. That’s extremely high.”

He added: “You had one weapon beat the pants off your incumbent, and the result of this was not to do more testing. You had the opportunity to keep working and pursuing a better weapon, and you chose not to.”

The data is contained in a broader Center for Naval Analyses (CNA) report on the military’s procurement of small arms, such as the M4, and small-caliber ammunition.

Like the carbine competition, this study was demanded by Congress, where some members believe the Army is wedded to inferior guns and ammo.

The CNA report does not name the eight guns and producers, apparently to protect proprietary information.

The U.S. official knowledgeable about the report said gun “A” was the Army’s M4A1, an enhanced model of the basic M4.

The CNA report contains three significant graphics. In one, reliability was measured against the M4 as the baseline. Gun “C” scored 25 percent more reliable than the M4A1 and better than all others.

A second graphic shows test results for “mean rounds between failures.” This is perhaps the most important test because it shows how many shots the rifle can fire before stoppage.

Again gun “C” was by far the best, achieving more than 2,500 rounds. The M4A1 failed after 500 — a gap that can make a significant difference in battle.

This test was a measurement of Class 1 and Class 2 magazine stoppages, in which one soldier can clear the gun himself within 10 seconds or more than 10 seconds, respectively. The U.S. official said classes 1 and 2 are the most common stoppages in battle.

A third graphic shows the M4A1 performed best for Class 3 stoppages, which are more significant failures that require a specialist, or armorer, to clear.

It achieved 6,000 mean rounds between failure. Gun “C” achieved about 4,500 rounds.

The guns competing to replace the M4 were at a disadvantage, the makers said, because the Army changed the ammo at the last minute to a new cartridge, the M855A1, being sent to war.

To adjust, the vendors were given 10,000 rounds to fire. But some told CNA “they did not have enough time to evaluate the results and make changes to their weapons before the competition,” the report said.

Still, the competition results “suggest that changing the weapon itself may not produce the effects the Army was looking for,” the CNA report said.

Last summer, after over two years of evaluation, the Army called off its competition.

The M4 was not considered a competitor, but it was fired during the competition, meaning it also failed to reach the Army’s exacting goals.

The Army’s statement in June 2013 justifying the cancellation said: “No competitor demonstrated a significant improvement in weapon reliability — measured by mean rounds fired between weapon stoppage. Consistent with the program’s search for superior capability, the test for weapon reliability was exceptionally rigorous and exceeded performance experienced in a typical operational environment.”

The Army also cited a report by the Department of Defense Inspector General, who said the competition was unneeded because of improvements to the M4.

Sen. Tom Coburn, Oklahoma Republican, fought a long battle with the Army to persuade it to look at other carbines. He said Army National Guardsmen back from the wars told him the gun was unreliable and jammed frequently. All of Mr. Coburn’s work crumbled last year when the inspector general essentially sided with the Army by giving it a justification to cancel the Improved Carbine competition.

Mr. Coburn expressed outrage in an October letter to Inspector General Jon T. Rymer, a copy of which was obtained by The Times.

He said the IG ignored the fact that the Army has not held a competition for a new rifle in more than 30 years. He said it failed to take into account test results that showed the M4 finished last in firing in extreme dust, such as that found in Afghanistan and Iraq.

“I am afraid the quality of this audit is not consistent with the standards I have seen” in other IG audits, Mr. Coburn said.

The Army has begun converting basic M4 rifles into the heavier-barreled M4A1, a gun used in the competition and originally developed for special operations troops who need continuous fire. Critics say the need for a transition proves that the conventional M4 fails too often in battle.

The Army also changed manufacturers last year. FN Manufacturing in South Carolina won a competition with Remington Arms Co. and Colt Defense, the longtime M4 maker, to make the M4A1.


http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/aug/19/armys-quits-tests-after-competing-rifle-outperform/



Awan68 said:


> What does corruption have to do with their military budget, thier budget is more than the rest of the world combined, let that sink in hazrat, ur syndicate is fighting for a lost cause, dont ever accuse the yanks of having budget constraints lol, they spend more on r n d of stuff they dont actually need and eventually cancel than our entire budget...


Again ask them when there media like Washington Post and others ask there Army and other forces they bring up budget and money issue I don't so ask them not me why they tell this to there media

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Awan68

Zarvan said:


> I am not coming up with any made up theory M4 was outperformed even by SCAR L. Army did the trials and M4 was outperformed but they stopped the trials after that bringing cost issues and other factors
> 
> 
> I have thought for months and did my research which you fail to do
> 
> 
> Go bother to read media coverage of this issue by USA media every paper is told few things of not going for new Rifle one of them is cost. Ask them where they spent there 600 billion dollars budget not me
> 
> *Army quits tests after competing rifle outperforms M4A1 carbine*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> munitions: National Guard Sgt. Larry J. Isbell fires at targets with his M4A1 carbine rifle. The Army is looking to phase out the longstanding weapon, but the potential suppliers to do so, as well as the competition results, remain shrouded ... more >
> 
> View CommentsRowan Scarborough - The Washington Times - Tuesday, August 19, 2014
> *EXCLUSIVE:*
> 
> A competing rifle outperformed the Army’s favored M4A1 carbine in key firings during a competition last year before the service abruptly called off the tests and stuck with its gun, according to a new confidential report.
> 
> The report also says the Army changed the ammunition midstream to a round “tailored” for the M4A1 rifle. It quoted competing companies as saying the switch was unfair because they did not have enough time to fire the new ammo and redesign their rifles before the tests began.
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly how the eight challengers — and the M4 — performed in a shootout to replace the M4, a soldier’s most important personal defense, has been shrouded in secrecy.
> 
> But an “official use only report” by the Center for Naval Analyses shows that one of the eight unidentified weapons outperformed the M4 on reliability and on the number of rounds fired before the most common type of failures, or stoppages, occurred, according to data obtained by The Washington Times.
> 
> The Army did not respond to The Times. At the time, the Army explained the cancellation by saying none of the eight showed a huge improvement over the M4. In the past, the Army, with an inventory of 500,000 M4s, has defended the carbine as reliable, accurate and popular among the large majority of soldiers. It has been upgraded throughout the war on terror to improve its magazine, barrel and sights.
> 
> 
> SPONSORED CONTENT
> Congress pressed the Army to hold the shootout in the face of mounting criticism from soldiers that the M4 is unreliable. The M4 is perhaps the most deployed weapon system in the war on terror — essential firepower in combating the Taliban, al Qaeda and other insurgents at close range during raids and firefights.
> 
> The Times earlier this year published a two-part series on the M4 revealing that, as the war on terror began, the carbine flunked several reliability tests when subjected to rapid fire. The Times spoke with soldiers who had used the M4 in intense combat. They said the magazine is tinny and subject to jamming. The gun itself requires constant cleaning. One Green Beret said he and his colleagues, once in theater, rebuild the gun with better parts.
> 
> The CNA report shows that one competing gun outperformed all other competitors, including the M4, on some key tests. The results show there was a potentially better gun for soldiers.
> 
> Army to say none of the weapons passed the test,” said a U.S. official critical of how the Army buys small arms. “It was true, but it was extremely misleading. They set the requirements for the mean round between failure at around 3,000 rounds. That’s extremely high.”
> 
> He added: “You had one weapon beat the pants off your incumbent, and the result of this was not to do more testing. You had the opportunity to keep working and pursuing a better weapon, and you chose not to.”
> 
> The data is contained in a broader Center for Naval Analyses (CNA) report on the military’s procurement of small arms, such as the M4, and small-caliber ammunition.
> 
> Like the carbine competition, this study was demanded by Congress, where some members believe the Army is wedded to inferior guns and ammo.
> 
> The CNA report does not name the eight guns and producers, apparently to protect proprietary information.
> 
> The U.S. official knowledgeable about the report said gun “A” was the Army’s M4A1, an enhanced model of the basic M4.
> 
> The CNA report contains three significant graphics. In one, reliability was measured against the M4 as the baseline. Gun “C” scored 25 percent more reliable than the M4A1 and better than all others.
> 
> A second graphic shows test results for “mean rounds between failures.” This is perhaps the most important test because it shows how many shots the rifle can fire before stoppage.
> 
> Again gun “C” was by far the best, achieving more than 2,500 rounds. The M4A1 failed after 500 — a gap that can make a significant difference in battle.
> 
> This test was a measurement of Class 1 and Class 2 magazine stoppages, in which one soldier can clear the gun himself within 10 seconds or more than 10 seconds, respectively. The U.S. official said classes 1 and 2 are the most common stoppages in battle.
> 
> A third graphic shows the M4A1 performed best for Class 3 stoppages, which are more significant failures that require a specialist, or armorer, to clear.
> 
> It achieved 6,000 mean rounds between failure. Gun “C” achieved about 4,500 rounds.
> 
> The guns competing to replace the M4 were at a disadvantage, the makers said, because the Army changed the ammo at the last minute to a new cartridge, the M855A1, being sent to war.
> 
> To adjust, the vendors were given 10,000 rounds to fire. But some told CNA “they did not have enough time to evaluate the results and make changes to their weapons before the competition,” the report said.
> 
> Still, the competition results “suggest that changing the weapon itself may not produce the effects the Army was looking for,” the CNA report said.
> 
> Last summer, after over two years of evaluation, the Army called off its competition.
> 
> The M4 was not considered a competitor, but it was fired during the competition, meaning it also failed to reach the Army’s exacting goals.
> 
> The Army’s statement in June 2013 justifying the cancellation said: “No competitor demonstrated a significant improvement in weapon reliability — measured by mean rounds fired between weapon stoppage. Consistent with the program’s search for superior capability, the test for weapon reliability was exceptionally rigorous and exceeded performance experienced in a typical operational environment.”
> 
> The Army also cited a report by the Department of Defense Inspector General, who said the competition was unneeded because of improvements to the M4.
> 
> Sen. Tom Coburn, Oklahoma Republican, fought a long battle with the Army to persuade it to look at other carbines. He said Army National Guardsmen back from the wars told him the gun was unreliable and jammed frequently. All of Mr. Coburn’s work crumbled last year when the inspector general essentially sided with the Army by giving it a justification to cancel the Improved Carbine competition.
> 
> Mr. Coburn expressed outrage in an October letter to Inspector General Jon T. Rymer, a copy of which was obtained by The Times.
> 
> He said the IG ignored the fact that the Army has not held a competition for a new rifle in more than 30 years. He said it failed to take into account test results that showed the M4 finished last in firing in extreme dust, such as that found in Afghanistan and Iraq.
> 
> “I am afraid the quality of this audit is not consistent with the standards I have seen” in other IG audits, Mr. Coburn said.
> 
> The Army has begun converting basic M4 rifles into the heavier-barreled M4A1, a gun used in the competition and originally developed for special operations troops who need continuous fire. Critics say the need for a transition proves that the conventional M4 fails too often in battle.
> 
> The Army also changed manufacturers last year. FN Manufacturing in South Carolina won a competition with Remington Arms Co. and Colt Defense, the longtime M4 maker, to make the M4A1.
> 
> 
> http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/aug/19/armys-quits-tests-after-competing-rifle-outperform/


Yes the Us is a corrupt country, their generals eat up all their budget n their soldiers ride tin cans and donkeys and dont have enough to eat, their navy is comprised of a few fishing boats armed with machine guns , their airforce is a few men on gliders who throw gernades from above, their army uses pitchforks and wooden sticks, what a dispicable poor country voilated by rich generals, mery bhai i hate Us too but that doesnt mean i start day dreaming about how weak, cowardly and corrupt they are, if i did that i would be dellusional, our army n airforce is so good cause we were pals with them, wo kehte hen achay doston ke sohbat rakhni chahye, initially we learned quality, discipiline , dedication and ingenuity from them, we built up on that on our own but they initial know how cane from them..

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## Zarvan

Awan68 said:


> Yes the Us is a corrupt country, their generals eat up all their budget n their soldiers ride tin cans and donkeys and dont have enough to eat, their navy is comprised of a few fishing boats armed with machine guns , their airforce is a few men on gliders who throw gernades from above, their army uses pitchforks and wooden sticks, what a dispicable poor country voilated by rich generals, mery bhai i hate Us too but that doesnt mean i start day dreaming about how weak, cowardly and corrupt they are, if i did that i would be dellusional, our army n airforce is so good cause we were pals with them, wo kehte hen achay doston ke sohbat rakhni chahye, initially we learned quality, discipiline , dedication and ingenuity from them, we built up on that on our own but they initial know how cane from them..


Dude if you really know How much these things cost and what there Generals and soldiers are doing in Afghanistan you would know How massively corrupt they. They have 600 billion dollars budget and many soldiers who return have a worse life than a prisoner with no money no pension nothing I wonder where they spent 600 billion dollar budget on. Many of there soldiers die on street no home a Pakistani sepoy even gets a home and pension and his children free education

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> I am not coming up with any made up theory M4 was outperformed even by SCAR L. Army did the trials and M4 was outperformed but they stopped the trials after that bringing cost issues and other factors
> 
> 
> I have thought for months and did my research which you fail to do
> 
> 
> Go bother to read media coverage of this issue by USA media every paper is told few things of not going for new Rifle one of them is cost. Ask them where they spent there 600 billion dollars budget not me
> 
> *Army quits tests after competing rifle outperforms M4A1 carbine*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> munitions: National Guard Sgt. Larry J. Isbell fires at targets with his M4A1 carbine rifle. The Army is looking to phase out the longstanding weapon, but the potential suppliers to do so, as well as the competition results, remain shrouded ... more >
> 
> View CommentsRowan Scarborough - The Washington Times - Tuesday, August 19, 2014
> *EXCLUSIVE:*
> 
> A competing rifle outperformed the Army’s favored M4A1 carbine in key firings during a competition last year before the service abruptly called off the tests and stuck with its gun, according to a new confidential report.
> 
> The report also says the Army changed the ammunition midstream to a round “tailored” for the M4A1 rifle. It quoted competing companies as saying the switch was unfair because they did not have enough time to fire the new ammo and redesign their rifles before the tests began.
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly how the eight challengers — and the M4 — performed in a shootout to replace the M4, a soldier’s most important personal defense, has been shrouded in secrecy.
> 
> But an “official use only report” by the Center for Naval Analyses shows that one of the eight unidentified weapons outperformed the M4 on reliability and on the number of rounds fired before the most common type of failures, or stoppages, occurred, according to data obtained by The Washington Times.
> 
> The Army did not respond to The Times. At the time, the Army explained the cancellation by saying none of the eight showed a huge improvement over the M4. In the past, the Army, with an inventory of 500,000 M4s, has defended the carbine as reliable, accurate and popular among the large majority of soldiers. It has been upgraded throughout the war on terror to improve its magazine, barrel and sights.
> 
> 
> SPONSORED CONTENT
> Congress pressed the Army to hold the shootout in the face of mounting criticism from soldiers that the M4 is unreliable. The M4 is perhaps the most deployed weapon system in the war on terror — essential firepower in combating the Taliban, al Qaeda and other insurgents at close range during raids and firefights.
> 
> The Times earlier this year published a two-part series on the M4 revealing that, as the war on terror began, the carbine flunked several reliability tests when subjected to rapid fire. The Times spoke with soldiers who had used the M4 in intense combat. They said the magazine is tinny and subject to jamming. The gun itself requires constant cleaning. One Green Beret said he and his colleagues, once in theater, rebuild the gun with better parts.
> 
> The CNA report shows that one competing gun outperformed all other competitors, including the M4, on some key tests. The results show there was a potentially better gun for soldiers.
> 
> Army to say none of the weapons passed the test,” said a U.S. official critical of how the Army buys small arms. “It was true, but it was extremely misleading. They set the requirements for the mean round between failure at around 3,000 rounds. That’s extremely high.”
> 
> He added: “You had one weapon beat the pants off your incumbent, and the result of this was not to do more testing. You had the opportunity to keep working and pursuing a better weapon, and you chose not to.”
> 
> The data is contained in a broader Center for Naval Analyses (CNA) report on the military’s procurement of small arms, such as the M4, and small-caliber ammunition.
> 
> Like the carbine competition, this study was demanded by Congress, where some members believe the Army is wedded to inferior guns and ammo.
> 
> The CNA report does not name the eight guns and producers, apparently to protect proprietary information.
> 
> The U.S. official knowledgeable about the report said gun “A” was the Army’s M4A1, an enhanced model of the basic M4.
> 
> The CNA report contains three significant graphics. In one, reliability was measured against the M4 as the baseline. Gun “C” scored 25 percent more reliable than the M4A1 and better than all others.
> 
> A second graphic shows test results for “mean rounds between failures.” This is perhaps the most important test because it shows how many shots the rifle can fire before stoppage.
> 
> Again gun “C” was by far the best, achieving more than 2,500 rounds. The M4A1 failed after 500 — a gap that can make a significant difference in battle.
> 
> This test was a measurement of Class 1 and Class 2 magazine stoppages, in which one soldier can clear the gun himself within 10 seconds or more than 10 seconds, respectively. The U.S. official said classes 1 and 2 are the most common stoppages in battle.
> 
> A third graphic shows the M4A1 performed best for Class 3 stoppages, which are more significant failures that require a specialist, or armorer, to clear.
> 
> It achieved 6,000 mean rounds between failure. Gun “C” achieved about 4,500 rounds.
> 
> The guns competing to replace the M4 were at a disadvantage, the makers said, because the Army changed the ammo at the last minute to a new cartridge, the M855A1, being sent to war.
> 
> To adjust, the vendors were given 10,000 rounds to fire. But some told CNA “they did not have enough time to evaluate the results and make changes to their weapons before the competition,” the report said.
> 
> Still, the competition results “suggest that changing the weapon itself may not produce the effects the Army was looking for,” the CNA report said.
> 
> Last summer, after over two years of evaluation, the Army called off its competition.
> 
> The M4 was not considered a competitor, but it was fired during the competition, meaning it also failed to reach the Army’s exacting goals.
> 
> The Army’s statement in June 2013 justifying the cancellation said: “No competitor demonstrated a significant improvement in weapon reliability — measured by mean rounds fired between weapon stoppage. Consistent with the program’s search for superior capability, the test for weapon reliability was exceptionally rigorous and exceeded performance experienced in a typical operational environment.”
> 
> The Army also cited a report by the Department of Defense Inspector General, who said the competition was unneeded because of improvements to the M4.
> 
> Sen. Tom Coburn, Oklahoma Republican, fought a long battle with the Army to persuade it to look at other carbines. He said Army National Guardsmen back from the wars told him the gun was unreliable and jammed frequently. All of Mr. Coburn’s work crumbled last year when the inspector general essentially sided with the Army by giving it a justification to cancel the Improved Carbine competition.
> 
> Mr. Coburn expressed outrage in an October letter to Inspector General Jon T. Rymer, a copy of which was obtained by The Times.
> 
> He said the IG ignored the fact that the Army has not held a competition for a new rifle in more than 30 years. He said it failed to take into account test results that showed the M4 finished last in firing in extreme dust, such as that found in Afghanistan and Iraq.
> 
> “I am afraid the quality of this audit is not consistent with the standards I have seen” in other IG audits, Mr. Coburn said.
> 
> The Army has begun converting basic M4 rifles into the heavier-barreled M4A1, a gun used in the competition and originally developed for special operations troops who need continuous fire. Critics say the need for a transition proves that the conventional M4 fails too often in battle.
> 
> The Army also changed manufacturers last year. FN Manufacturing in South Carolina won a competition with Remington Arms Co. and Colt Defense, the longtime M4 maker, to make the M4A1.
> 
> 
> http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/aug/19/armys-quits-tests-after-competing-rifle-outperform/
> 
> 
> Again ask them when there media like Washington Post and others ask there Army and other forces they bring up budget and money issue I don't so ask them not me why they tell this to there media



Really Hazrat?? This article wins your argument? This explains nothing and I mean nothing about what i asked you. This is from 2014 and it talks about Army testing which has not gone any further than mentioned.

Hazrat I asked about SCAR being used by US spec ops from 2004-2009~ This article is from 2014 and once again there is NO mention of why US spec ops ditched SCAR!!!

US spec ops and US Army are two different entities I hope you realise that? One is special forces the other is regular soldiers. 

In the whole article it mentions FN manufacturing and you jumped for joy which has no detail what it entails secondly it won a joint competition with Remington, there is NO mention of SCAR!!!

Hazrat who are you trying to fool. 2004-2009~ is as same as 2014???? really? Regular army is Spec Ops now?

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## Thunder.Storm

U.S. Army Kills Rifle Replacement Program After Competitor Bests Existing M4A1

Over the last couple years, the U.S. Army has been holding the Individual Carbine competition — a program designed to evaluate if the M4A1 rifle is still the best firearm for our soldiers over 50 years after its introduction, or if there is anything better out there. The project has been under fire from the start, and they canned the competition back in June of last year claiming that everyone failed to meet the specifications. According to new information acquired by the Washington Times, it sounds like that decision to cancel the project may have been for other reasons . . .

A competing rifle outperformed the Army’s favored M4A1 carbine in key firings during a competition last year before the service abruptly called off the tests and stuck with its gun, according to a new confidential report.

The report also says the Army changed the ammunition midstream to a round “tailored” for the M4A1 rifle. It quoted competing companies as saying the switch was unfair because they did not have enough time to fire the new ammo and redesign their rifles before the tests began.

Exactly how the eight challengers — and the M4 — performed in a shootout to replace the M4, a soldier’s most important personal defense, has been shrouded in secrecy.

But an “official use only report” by the Center for Naval Analyses shows that one of the eight unidentified weapons outperformed the M4 on reliability and on the number of rounds fired before the most common type of failures, or stoppages, occurred, according to data obtained by The Washington Times.

There’s little doubt that the Army is reluctant to switch to another platform. The sheer cost of transitioning the armed forces to a new firearm platform would be astronomical, not to mention the training requirements for both the individual soldiers and the armorers. But the more that comes out about how the competition is being run, the more it sounds like the Army set the bar so high that it was impossible for anyone to meet — and even then, one gun came close.

As for the manufacturer of the rifle that came closest to passing, there is no official word and no one is willing to talk about it. But I think I have a pretty good idea who it is.


----------



## Path-Finder

Thunder.Storm said:


> U.S. Army Kills Rifle Replacement Program After Competitor Bests Existing M4A1
> 
> Over the last couple years, the U.S. Army has been holding the Individual Carbine competition — a program designed to evaluate if the M4A1 rifle is still the best firearm for our soldiers over 50 years after its introduction, or if there is anything better out there. The project has been under fire from the start, and they canned the competition back in June of last year claiming that everyone failed to meet the specifications. According to new information acquired by the Washington Times, it sounds like that decision to cancel the project may have been for other reasons . . .
> 
> A competing rifle outperformed the Army’s favored M4A1 carbine in key firings during a competition last year before the service abruptly called off the tests and stuck with its gun, according to a new confidential report.
> 
> The report also says the Army changed the ammunition midstream to a round “tailored” for the M4A1 rifle. It quoted competing companies as saying the switch was unfair because they did not have enough time to fire the new ammo and redesign their rifles before the tests began.
> 
> Exactly how the eight challengers — and the M4 — performed in a shootout to replace the M4, a soldier’s most important personal defense, has been shrouded in secrecy.
> 
> But an “official use only report” by the Center for Naval Analyses shows that one of the eight unidentified weapons outperformed the M4 on reliability and on the number of rounds fired before the most common type of failures, or stoppages, occurred, according to data obtained by The Washington Times.
> 
> There’s little doubt that the Army is reluctant to switch to another platform. The sheer cost of transitioning the armed forces to a new firearm platform would be astronomical, not to mention the training requirements for both the individual soldiers and the armorers. But the more that comes out about how the competition is being run, the more it sounds like the Army set the bar so high that it was impossible for anyone to meet — and even then, one gun came close.
> 
> As for the manufacturer of the rifle that came closest to passing, there is no official word and no one is willing to talk about it. But I think I have a pretty good idea who it is.



there is a HEAVY tilt towards HK416 that much is confirmed NOT SCAR! SCAR is not in the picture but HK416 is.


----------



## Awan68

Zarvan said:


> Dude if you really know How much these things cost and what there Generals and soldiers are doing in Afghanistan you would know How massively corrupt they. They have 600 billion dollars budget and many soldiers who return have a worse life than a prisoner with no money no pension nothing I wonder where they spent 600 billion dollar budget on. Many of there soldiers die on street no home a Pakistani sepoy even gets a home and pension and his children free education


What are u urguing about, corruption is everywhere, specially in warzones, doesnt stop them from bieng one of the most well equipped militaries on earth, im not talking about effectivenes, im talking about their equipment, and those drugs ur talking about was one of the american objectives in war on afghanistan to restore afgan drug supply to the Us of which they make billions..


----------



## MystryMan

Rafi said:


> It is a comprehensive offer, that's all I will say.


U have said it all without saying it all.


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

This might - or might not - be relevant:

The Cabinet approved, in principle, to start negotiations on draft MoU between Ministry of Defence Government of Czech Republic and Ministry of Defence Production Government of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, concerning cooperation in the field of defence industry and logistics. (Defence Production Division)

http://www.app.com.pk/cabinet-approves-agenda-items-related-to-defence-aviation-health-sectors/
​

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## Arsalan

*NOTE: Look for the part written in red text as it seems relevant. 

Cabinet approves agenda items related to defence, aviation, health sectors:*
ISLAMABAD, April 12 (APP): The Federal Cabinet Wednesday approved a number of agenda items, enhancing cooperation and agreements between Pakistan and other countries in the field of aviation, defence, interior, health, law and others.
The meeting, chaired by Prime Minister Muhammad Nawaz Sharif, accorded its approval to a number of agenda items placed before it.
The Cabinet also confirmed/approved decisions taken by the Economic Co-ordination Committee (ECC) of the Cabinet in its different meetings, according to PM office media wing in a press release.
The agenda items approved in the meetings included agenda for technical cooperation between Pakistan Meteorological Department (PMD) and Sultan Qaboos University (SQU) HV, Oman Regarding Tsunami Early Warning System (TEWS). (Aviation Division): Cooperation in the field of meteorology between Pakistan Meteorological Department & Meteo-France. (Aviation Division)
The Cabinet approved, in principle, to negotiate the draft Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) on defence cooperation between Government of the Republic of Kenya and Government of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan. (Defence Division)
Signing of statement of Intent in the Field of Research and Cooperative Activities between the Geneva Centre for Security Policy, Switzerland and the National Defence University, Pakistan.(Defence Division)
*The Cabinet approved, in principle, to start negotiations on draft MoU between Ministry of Defence Government of Czech Republic and Ministry of Defence Production Government of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, concerning cooperation in the field of defence industry and logistics. (Defence Production Division)*
The Cabinet also approved in principle to start negotiations on Visa Abolition Agreement between the Islamic Republic of Pakistan and the Republic of Cuba for diplomatic, official and service passport holders. (Interior Division)
Initiation of negotiations on a draft MoU between the Ministry of Interior and Narcotics Control of Pakistan and Ministry of Justice and Public Security of Norway on cooperation in combating crime. (Interior Division)
Signing of negotiated draft Visa Abolition Agreement between Government of the Republic of Pakistan and the Government of Jordan for the holders of diplomatic and Official passport. (Interior Division)
Signing of agreement between Government of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan and the Government of Bulgaria on Abolition of Visa for diplomatic and service/official passport holders. (Interior Division)
Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) for strengthening cooperation in the area of anti-corruption between the National Accountability Bureau, Government of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan (the NAB) and the Ministry of Supervision, Government of the People’s Republic of China (the Ministry); ratification of the Cabinet. (Law & Justice Division)
To start negotiations and sharing of the counter draft MoU on Agricultural Cooperation with the Kingdom of Thailand. (National Food Security and Research Division)
Initiating negotiations on the Memorandum of Cooperation for the Development of Mechanism to Combat Drug Related Crimes between the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and the Anti Narcotics Force. (Narcotics Control Division)
Initiating negotiations on the Memorandum of Cooperation for the Development of Mechanism to Combat Drug Related Crimes between the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and the Anti Narcotics Force. (Narcotics Control Division).
Ratification of the Cabinet for Signing of MoU between Government of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan with Government of the Democratic Socialist Republic of Sri Lanka on cooperation in the field of Health and Medicine. (National Health Services, Regulation and Coordination Division).
Signing of MoU between Government of the Islamic Republic of Iran and Islamic Republic of Pakistan for mutual cooperation in the field of health services, medical education, research, drug and medical technology. (National Health Services, Regulation and Coordination Division).
The Cabinet also confirmed/approved decisions taken by the Economic Coordination Committee (ECC) of the Cabinet in its meeting held on February 13 (Cabinet Division).
The Cabinet in its meeting further approved ratification of the decisions taken by the Economic Coordination Committee (ECC) of the Cabinet in its meetings held on February 22, March 28, (Cabinet Division).
It also included ratification of the Cabinet to the Recommendation of the Cabinet Committee for Disposal of Legislative cases, held on March 22 and April 10 (Cabinet Division).



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> This might - or might not - be relevant:
> 
> The Cabinet approved, in principle, to start negotiations on draft MoU between Ministry of Defence Government of Czech Republic and Ministry of Defence Production Government of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, concerning cooperation in the field of defence industry and logistics. (Defence Production Division)
> 
> http://www.app.com.pk/cabinet-approves-agenda-items-related-to-defence-aviation-health-sectors/
> ​


LOLZ!!

I see that you have already posted that "relevant" part sir. THANK YOU.

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## Path-Finder

Arsalan said:


> *NOTE: Look for the part written in red text as it seems relevant.
> 
> Cabinet approves agenda items related to defence, aviation, health sectors:*
> ISLAMABAD, April 12 (APP): The Federal Cabinet Wednesday approved a number of agenda items, enhancing cooperation and agreements between Pakistan and other countries in the field of aviation, defence, interior, health, law and others.
> The meeting, chaired by Prime Minister Muhammad Nawaz Sharif, accorded its approval to a number of agenda items placed before it.
> The Cabinet also confirmed/approved decisions taken by the Economic Co-ordination Committee (ECC) of the Cabinet in its different meetings, according to PM office media wing in a press release.
> The agenda items approved in the meetings included agenda for technical cooperation between Pakistan Meteorological Department (PMD) and Sultan Qaboos University (SQU) HV, Oman Regarding Tsunami Early Warning System (TEWS). (Aviation Division): Cooperation in the field of meteorology between Pakistan Meteorological Department & Meteo-France. (Aviation Division)
> The Cabinet approved, in principle, to negotiate the draft Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) on defence cooperation between Government of the Republic of Kenya and Government of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan. (Defence Division)
> Signing of statement of Intent in the Field of Research and Cooperative Activities between the Geneva Centre for Security Policy, Switzerland and the National Defence University, Pakistan.(Defence Division)
> *The Cabinet approved, in principle, to start negotiations on draft MoU between Ministry of Defence Government of Czech Republic and Ministry of Defence Production Government of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, concerning cooperation in the field of defence industry and logistics. (Defence Production Division)*
> The Cabinet also approved in principle to start negotiations on Visa Abolition Agreement between the Islamic Republic of Pakistan and the Republic of Cuba for diplomatic, official and service passport holders. (Interior Division)
> Initiation of negotiations on a draft MoU between the Ministry of Interior and Narcotics Control of Pakistan and Ministry of Justice and Public Security of Norway on cooperation in combating crime. (Interior Division)
> Signing of negotiated draft Visa Abolition Agreement between Government of the Republic of Pakistan and the Government of Jordan for the holders of diplomatic and Official passport. (Interior Division)
> Signing of agreement between Government of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan and the Government of Bulgaria on Abolition of Visa for diplomatic and service/official passport holders. (Interior Division)
> Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) for strengthening cooperation in the area of anti-corruption between the National Accountability Bureau, Government of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan (the NAB) and the Ministry of Supervision, Government of the People’s Republic of China (the Ministry); ratification of the Cabinet. (Law & Justice Division)
> To start negotiations and sharing of the counter draft MoU on Agricultural Cooperation with the Kingdom of Thailand. (National Food Security and Research Division)
> Initiating negotiations on the Memorandum of Cooperation for the Development of Mechanism to Combat Drug Related Crimes between the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and the Anti Narcotics Force. (Narcotics Control Division)
> Initiating negotiations on the Memorandum of Cooperation for the Development of Mechanism to Combat Drug Related Crimes between the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and the Anti Narcotics Force. (Narcotics Control Division).
> Ratification of the Cabinet for Signing of MoU between Government of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan with Government of the Democratic Socialist Republic of Sri Lanka on cooperation in the field of Health and Medicine. (National Health Services, Regulation and Coordination Division).
> Signing of MoU between Government of the Islamic Republic of Iran and Islamic Republic of Pakistan for mutual cooperation in the field of health services, medical education, research, drug and medical technology. (National Health Services, Regulation and Coordination Division).
> The Cabinet also confirmed/approved decisions taken by the Economic Coordination Committee (ECC) of the Cabinet in its meeting held on February 13 (Cabinet Division).
> The Cabinet in its meeting further approved ratification of the decisions taken by the Economic Coordination Committee (ECC) of the Cabinet in its meetings held on February 22, March 28, (Cabinet Division).
> It also included ratification of the Cabinet to the Recommendation of the Cabinet Committee for Disposal of Legislative cases, held on March 22 and April 10 (Cabinet Division).
> 
> 
> LOLZ!!
> 
> I see that you have already posted that "relevant" part sir. THANK YOU.


What can _one_ make of that?


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## HRK

Path-Finder said:


> What can _one_ make of that?


'CZ' ... 























@Zarvan .....


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## Path-Finder

HRK said:


> 'CZ' ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Zarvan .....

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## Awan68

Dont underestimate hazrats syndicate, the members of this blasphemous committe will soon start dying in mysterious circumstances, all of them will be accidents ofcourse.....

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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> *NOTE: Look for the part written in red text as it seems relevant.
> 
> Cabinet approves agenda items related to defence, aviation, health sectors:*
> ISLAMABAD, April 12 (APP): The Federal Cabinet Wednesday approved a number of agenda items, enhancing cooperation and agreements between Pakistan and other countries in the field of aviation, defence, interior, health, law and others.
> The meeting, chaired by Prime Minister Muhammad Nawaz Sharif, accorded its approval to a number of agenda items placed before it.
> The Cabinet also confirmed/approved decisions taken by the Economic Co-ordination Committee (ECC) of the Cabinet in its different meetings, according to PM office media wing in a press release.
> The agenda items approved in the meetings included agenda for technical cooperation between Pakistan Meteorological Department (PMD) and Sultan Qaboos University (SQU) HV, Oman Regarding Tsunami Early Warning System (TEWS). (Aviation Division): Cooperation in the field of meteorology between Pakistan Meteorological Department & Meteo-France. (Aviation Division)
> The Cabinet approved, in principle, to negotiate the draft Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) on defence cooperation between Government of the Republic of Kenya and Government of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan. (Defence Division)
> Signing of statement of Intent in the Field of Research and Cooperative Activities between the Geneva Centre for Security Policy, Switzerland and the National Defence University, Pakistan.(Defence Division)
> *The Cabinet approved, in principle, to start negotiations on draft MoU between Ministry of Defence Government of Czech Republic and Ministry of Defence Production Government of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, concerning cooperation in the field of defence industry and logistics. (Defence Production Division)*
> The Cabinet also approved in principle to start negotiations on Visa Abolition Agreement between the Islamic Republic of Pakistan and the Republic of Cuba for diplomatic, official and service passport holders. (Interior Division)
> Initiation of negotiations on a draft MoU between the Ministry of Interior and Narcotics Control of Pakistan and Ministry of Justice and Public Security of Norway on cooperation in combating crime. (Interior Division)
> Signing of negotiated draft Visa Abolition Agreement between Government of the Republic of Pakistan and the Government of Jordan for the holders of diplomatic and Official passport. (Interior Division)
> Signing of agreement between Government of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan and the Government of Bulgaria on Abolition of Visa for diplomatic and service/official passport holders. (Interior Division)
> Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) for strengthening cooperation in the area of anti-corruption between the National Accountability Bureau, Government of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan (the NAB) and the Ministry of Supervision, Government of the People’s Republic of China (the Ministry); ratification of the Cabinet. (Law & Justice Division)
> To start negotiations and sharing of the counter draft MoU on Agricultural Cooperation with the Kingdom of Thailand. (National Food Security and Research Division)
> Initiating negotiations on the Memorandum of Cooperation for the Development of Mechanism to Combat Drug Related Crimes between the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and the Anti Narcotics Force. (Narcotics Control Division)
> Initiating negotiations on the Memorandum of Cooperation for the Development of Mechanism to Combat Drug Related Crimes between the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and the Anti Narcotics Force. (Narcotics Control Division).
> Ratification of the Cabinet for Signing of MoU between Government of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan with Government of the Democratic Socialist Republic of Sri Lanka on cooperation in the field of Health and Medicine. (National Health Services, Regulation and Coordination Division).
> Signing of MoU between Government of the Islamic Republic of Iran and Islamic Republic of Pakistan for mutual cooperation in the field of health services, medical education, research, drug and medical technology. (National Health Services, Regulation and Coordination Division).
> The Cabinet also confirmed/approved decisions taken by the Economic Coordination Committee (ECC) of the Cabinet in its meeting held on February 13 (Cabinet Division).
> The Cabinet in its meeting further approved ratification of the decisions taken by the Economic Coordination Committee (ECC) of the Cabinet in its meetings held on February 22, March 28, (Cabinet Division).
> It also included ratification of the Cabinet to the Recommendation of the Cabinet Committee for Disposal of Legislative cases, held on March 22 and April 10 (Cabinet Division).
> 
> 
> LOLZ!!
> 
> I see that you have already posted that "relevant" part sir. THANK YOU.



@Horus do you have any information on this and what this is about this



Arsalan said:


> *NOTE: Look for the part written in red text as it seems relevant.
> 
> Cabinet approves agenda items related to defence, aviation, health sectors:*
> ISLAMABAD, April 12 (APP): The Federal Cabinet Wednesday approved a number of agenda items, enhancing cooperation and agreements between Pakistan and other countries in the field of aviation, defence, interior, health, law and others.
> The meeting, chaired by Prime Minister Muhammad Nawaz Sharif, accorded its approval to a number of agenda items placed before it.
> The Cabinet also confirmed/approved decisions taken by the Economic Co-ordination Committee (ECC) of the Cabinet in its different meetings, according to PM office media wing in a press release.
> The agenda items approved in the meetings included agenda for technical cooperation between Pakistan Meteorological Department (PMD) and Sultan Qaboos University (SQU) HV, Oman Regarding Tsunami Early Warning System (TEWS). (Aviation Division): Cooperation in the field of meteorology between Pakistan Meteorological Department & Meteo-France. (Aviation Division)
> The Cabinet approved, in principle, to negotiate the draft Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) on defence cooperation between Government of the Republic of Kenya and Government of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan. (Defence Division)
> Signing of statement of Intent in the Field of Research and Cooperative Activities between the Geneva Centre for Security Policy, Switzerland and the National Defence University, Pakistan.(Defence Division)
> *The Cabinet approved, in principle, to start negotiations on draft MoU between Ministry of Defence Government of Czech Republic and Ministry of Defence Production Government of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, concerning cooperation in the field of defence industry and logistics. (Defence Production Division)*
> The Cabinet also approved in principle to start negotiations on Visa Abolition Agreement between the Islamic Republic of Pakistan and the Republic of Cuba for diplomatic, official and service passport holders. (Interior Division)
> Initiation of negotiations on a draft MoU between the Ministry of Interior and Narcotics Control of Pakistan and Ministry of Justice and Public Security of Norway on cooperation in combating crime. (Interior Division)
> Signing of negotiated draft Visa Abolition Agreement between Government of the Republic of Pakistan and the Government of Jordan for the holders of diplomatic and Official passport. (Interior Division)
> Signing of agreement between Government of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan and the Government of Bulgaria on Abolition of Visa for diplomatic and service/official passport holders. (Interior Division)
> Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) for strengthening cooperation in the area of anti-corruption between the National Accountability Bureau, Government of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan (the NAB) and the Ministry of Supervision, Government of the People’s Republic of China (the Ministry); ratification of the Cabinet. (Law & Justice Division)
> To start negotiations and sharing of the counter draft MoU on Agricultural Cooperation with the Kingdom of Thailand. (National Food Security and Research Division)
> Initiating negotiations on the Memorandum of Cooperation for the Development of Mechanism to Combat Drug Related Crimes between the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and the Anti Narcotics Force. (Narcotics Control Division)
> Initiating negotiations on the Memorandum of Cooperation for the Development of Mechanism to Combat Drug Related Crimes between the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and the Anti Narcotics Force. (Narcotics Control Division).
> Ratification of the Cabinet for Signing of MoU between Government of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan with Government of the Democratic Socialist Republic of Sri Lanka on cooperation in the field of Health and Medicine. (National Health Services, Regulation and Coordination Division).
> Signing of MoU between Government of the Islamic Republic of Iran and Islamic Republic of Pakistan for mutual cooperation in the field of health services, medical education, research, drug and medical technology. (National Health Services, Regulation and Coordination Division).
> The Cabinet also confirmed/approved decisions taken by the Economic Coordination Committee (ECC) of the Cabinet in its meeting held on February 13 (Cabinet Division).
> The Cabinet in its meeting further approved ratification of the decisions taken by the Economic Coordination Committee (ECC) of the Cabinet in its meetings held on February 22, March 28, (Cabinet Division).
> It also included ratification of the Cabinet to the Recommendation of the Cabinet Committee for Disposal of Legislative cases, held on March 22 and April 10 (Cabinet Division).
> 
> 
> LOLZ!!
> 
> I see that you have already posted that "relevant" part sir. THANK YOU.



Even if it's CZ is bound to replace Type 56 not G3. For G3 Beretta and SCAR are front runners but CZ blasted in trial so if we go ahead without resolving the issue it would be great betrayal to soldiers and putting there life at risk so we need to resolve the issue first


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## Gryphon

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> This might - or might not - be relevant:
> 
> The Cabinet approved, in principle, to start negotiations on draft MoU between Ministry of Defence Government of Czech Republic and Ministry of Defence Production Government of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, concerning cooperation in the field of defence industry and logistics. (Defence Production Division)
> 
> http://www.app.com.pk/cabinet-approves-agenda-items-related-to-defence-aviation-health-sectors/
> ​



It could be similar to the one signed with South Africa.


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat The News is Fake!
> View attachment 390494


Wait this is not related to Rifle trials this is new MOU


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Wait this is not related to Rifle trials this is new MOU


Hazrat I am certain it is not! what did horus say?


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat I am certain it is not! what did horus say?


He is busy doing some sort of hunting


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## Arsalan

Path-Finder said:


> What can _one_ make of that?


Currently there are reports of Pakistan's interest in two things from Czech. 

CZ Bern
Tatra trucks that are used by T5-52 SPH we are looking into from South Africa.
The report above indicates talks about both things, "defence industry and logistics". I had a small chat with @Bilal Khan (Quwa) and we discussed that how a deal to make these at home will make a lot of sense. May be it is that.

Anyway, it js just guess work and we are just TRYING to make something of this news report. However we can be surethat this is some relevant activity.

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## The Eagle

If CZ is chosen in x56 category only and 7.62x51 has to be from different manufacturer, I would like to see ARX as IMO, Italians will have more treats in their bags for other forces (PN/PAF) as well. Taking full advantage of the opportunity is not a bad thing as after all it is a win win for both parties, the seller and buyer. Do we have any thing insight beside SCAR-H from Belgium, as icing on the cake to get the deal done like this?

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## Path-Finder

The Eagle said:


> If CZ is chosen in x56 category only and 7.62x51 has to be from different manufacturer, I would like to see ARX as IMO, Italians will have more treats in their bags for other forces (PN/PAF) as well. Taking full advantage of the opportunity is not a bad thing as after all it is a win win for both parties, the seller and buyer. Do we have any thing insight beside SCAR-H from Belgium, as icing on the cake to get the deal done like this?


CZ won x39 and only one with MoU/LoU with rumors of test in x51. Beretta & SCAR are shortlisted BUT nothing further. There is no x56


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## The Eagle

Path-Finder said:


> CZ won x39 and only one with MoU/LoU with rumors of test in x51. Beretta & SCAR are shortlisted BUT nothing further. There is no x56




Oh ... the typo that actually tried to make it as 5.56 however... Yes, it was about x51 for ARX/Italian and SCAR-H/Belgium. However, I don't think that mere concern should be the Rifle here though there could be interest for other goodies as well, from respective countries.


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## Path-Finder

The Eagle said:


> Oh ... the typo that actually tried to make it as 5.56 however... Yes, it was about x51 for ARX/Italian and SCAR-H/Belgium. However, I don't think that mere concern should be the Rifle here though there could be interest for other goodies as well, from respective countries.


Well Beretta Defense Technology Own arguably the top optic maker Steiner along some other companies specialising in ammo, sniper rifles shotguns as well. Steiner ICS tailor made for ARX200. Video below shows ICS on ARX200 firing.






CZ are partnered with MeOpta another top Optic maker their glass is used in Aimpoints that how good it is! CZ is a reputable company with needing no introduction.

FN is just SCAR



Kitten said:


> My sources inside FN are telling me I have no idea which gun's going to come out on top.
> 
> But I have my heart set on a surprise, last minute contender.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .308 of course.
> 
> I wouldn't say no the XCR-M either.



Ah it's the gyal that made you like the rifle, be honest . But The rifle has the same bolt carrier group, gas piston recoil spring as found in CZ SCAR and ARX.

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## The Eagle

Not just with the Gun and its related Gears/equipment but speaking of Italy, may be such talks and procurement can bring forth something for PAF/PN as well anything from suits to hardware etc and if it is possible, IMO, we should go for the more sweetened and fruitful supplier, once satisfied with the Gun. ARX did well in trials.

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## Zarvan

The Eagle said:


> If CZ is chosen in x56 category only and 7.62x51 has to be from different manufacturer, I would like to see ARX as IMO, Italians will have more treats in their bags for other forces (PN/PAF) as well. Taking full advantage of the opportunity is not a bad thing as after all it is a win win for both parties, the seller and buyer. Do we have any thing insight beside SCAR-H from Belgium, as icing on the cake to get the deal done like this?


Well first of with SCAR we are getting all versions including Sniper Guns. Secondly we are getting FN Minimi thirdly we are getting handguns. In other worlds all the weapons a soldier carries. As for Beretta well it failed the accuracy test and BREN blasted during the test. And right now we are not looking for a Rifle with 5.56 X 45 category.


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Well first of with SCAR we are getting all versions including Sniper Guns. Secondly we are getting FN Minimi thirdly we are getting handguns. *In other worlds* all the weapons a soldier carries. As for Beretta well it failed the accuracy test and BREN blasted during the test. And right now we are not looking for a Rifle with 5.56 X 45 category.


Hazrat you have not brought a shred of proof other than conspiracies that CZ blew up and Beretta failed test??? Which world are you referring to? Is it some planet which is not Earth?

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat you have not brought a shred of proof other than conspiracies that CZ blew up and Beretta failed test??? Which world are you referring to? Is it some planet which is not Earth?


I am talking about Pakistani trials


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> I am talking about Pakistani trials


I am talking about you providing evidence to back up what you say Hazrat!!


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> I am talking about you providing evidence to back up what you say Hazrat!!


I am not going to show you the video trials but your beloved Berreta and BREN both failed the one part of trial. Berreta in accuracy and CZ the endurance test.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> It could be similar to the one signed with South Africa.


Yeah. MoUs such as this and the one with South Africa seem to imply that there's government approval (Czech/SA) for sales to Pakistan. Sure, it isn't for everything (e.g. I doubt we'd be able to get the ERA VERA), but CZ, Tatra and Aero can sell their respective stuff.



Zarvan said:


> I am not going to show you the video trials but your beloved Berreta and BREN both failed the one part of trial. Berreta in accuracy and CZ the endurance test.


Just asking, did you see the video trials?

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## That Guy

The Eagle said:


> If CZ is chosen in x56 category only and 7.62x51 has to be from different manufacturer, I would like to see ARX as IMO, Italians will have more treats in their bags for other forces (PN/PAF) as well. Taking full advantage of the opportunity is not a bad thing as after all it is a win win for both parties, the seller and buyer. Do we have any thing insight beside SCAR-H from Belgium, as icing on the cake to get the deal done like this?


I firmly believe that PA is going to go for the ARX. The Italians have not only upgraded POF facilities, but I believe they've also signed agreements for the manufacturing of Beretta handguns.

From what I can tell, Beretta seems to be the favorite to replace the G3, while the CZ seems to be the favorite to replace the Type 56.

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) please correct me, if I'm wrong.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

That Guy said:


> I firmly believe that PA is going to go for the ARX. The Italians have not only upgraded POF facilities, but I believe they've also signed agreements for the manufacturing of Beretta handguns.
> 
> From what I can tell, Beretta seems to be the favorite to replace the G3, while the CZ seems to be the favorite to replace the Type 56.
> 
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) please correct me, if I'm wrong.


I can only go by the information available in the public domain, but here's what we have right now:

1. At IDEAS 2016, CZ and POF signed a letter-of-understanding (LoU) to “negotiate delivery of complete technology for the production of small arms … [with] gradual launching of production in Pakistan, ranging from light assembly to maximum localization.”

This was confirmed by CZ recently, with the CZ official saying: "“Recently we have [CZ] signed a letter-of-understanding with POF, and we are ready to transfer, the full transfer (sic) of modern technology from CZ to Pakistan, to POF, so we can produce the most modern and most advanced assault rifles in the world at POF.”

2. At IDEX 2017, POF signed a LoU with Beretta "for the sales of Italian pistols, shotguns and apparel in Pakistan." It will also explore "joint Marketing and cooperation will be made in order to enhance the export marketing." POF and Beretta will also examine other opportunities.

It's worth noting that Argentina's Fabricaciones Militares became a licensed manufacturer of the Beretta ARX-200. If you thought Pakistan's lack of defence funding was a problem, then oh boy, the Argentine military generally has it worse - it says something when they can pick up a license to produce ARX-200 and Px4 handguns. 

But seriously, seeing Argentina pick up the license, I wonder if Beretta has a smaller off-the-shelf and scale requirement for the ARX-200.

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## Zarvan

That Guy said:


> I firmly believe that PA is going to go for the ARX. The Italians have not only upgraded POF facilities, but I believe they've also signed agreements for the manufacturing of Beretta handguns.
> 
> From what I can tell, Beretta seems to be the favorite to replace the G3, while the CZ seems to be the favorite to replace the Type 56.
> 
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) please correct me, if I'm wrong.


Beretta is pretty much out of the competition. SCAR is pretty much done deal to replace G3, Officers are being told about SCAR now



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I can only go by the information available in the public domain, but here's what we have right now:
> 
> 1. At IDEAS 2016, CZ and POF signed a letter-of-understanding (LoU) to “negotiate delivery of complete technology for the production of small arms … [with] gradual launching of production in Pakistan, ranging from light assembly to maximum localization.”
> 
> This was confirmed by CZ recently, with the CZ official saying: "“Recently we have [CZ] signed a letter-of-understanding with POF, and we are ready to transfer, the full transfer (sic) of modern technology from CZ to Pakistan, to POF, so we can produce the most modern and most advanced assault rifles in the world at POF.”
> 
> 2. At IDEX 2017, POF signed a LoU with Beretta "for the sales of Italian pistols, shotguns and apparel in Pakistan." It will also explore "joint Marketing and cooperation will be made in order to enhance the export marketing." POF and Beretta will also examine other opportunities.
> 
> It's worth noting that Argentina's Fabricaciones Militares became a licensed manufacturer of the Beretta ARX-200. If you thought Pakistan's lack of defence funding was a problem, then oh boy, the Argentine military generally has it worse - it says something when they can pick up a license to produce ARX-200 and Px4 handguns.
> 
> But seriously, seeing Argentina pick up the license, I wonder if Beretta has a smaller off-the-shelf and scale requirement for the ARX-200.


At IDEX 2017 FN was given green signal and Beretta HandGun APX and ShortGuns are the ones Pakistan has shown interest in in fact APX is being tested among other handguns.


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## That Guy

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I can only go by the information available in the public domain, but here's what we have right now:
> 
> 1. At IDEAS 2016, CZ and POF signed a letter-of-understanding (LoU) to “negotiate delivery of complete technology for the production of small arms … [with] gradual launching of production in Pakistan, ranging from light assembly to maximum localization.”
> 
> This was confirmed by CZ recently, with the CZ official saying: "“Recently we have [CZ] signed a letter-of-understanding with POF, and we are ready to transfer, the full transfer (sic) of modern technology from CZ to Pakistan, to POF, so we can produce the most modern and most advanced assault rifles in the world at POF.”
> 
> 2. At IDEX 2017, POF signed a LoU with Beretta "for the sales of Italian pistols, shotguns and apparel in Pakistan." It will also explore "joint Marketing and cooperation will be made in order to enhance the export marketing." POF and Beretta will also examine other opportunities.
> 
> It's worth noting that Argentina's Fabricaciones Militares became a licensed manufacturer of the Beretta ARX-200. If you thought Pakistan's lack of defence funding was a problem, then oh boy, the Argentine military generally has it worse - it says something when they can pick up a license to produce ARX-200 and Px4 handguns.
> 
> But seriously, seeing Argentina pick up the license, I wonder if Beretta has a smaller off-the-shelf and scale requirement for the ARX-200.


Thanks for the info.



Zarvan said:


> Beretta is pretty much out of the competition. SCAR is pretty much done deal to replace G3, Officers are being told about SCAR now


Color me skeptical. I won't believe it, until we get some sort of confirmation.

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## Arsalan

Path-Finder said:


> I am talking about you providing evidence to back up what you say Hazrat!!





That Guy said:


> Color me skeptical. I won't believe it, until we get some sort of confirmation.


You guys dont get it, do you?
There is no proof, no confirmation and one is unlikely until an actual deal is signed and we are ready to go into production. Till that time everybody is speculating, some using logic, some using some real information and others using facebook (jo naam ha itemaad ka). So forget any confirmation or proof being shared.
People will keep talking about videos and exploding guns but infact they know 5hit. All there info is based on stories told to them by facebook accounts they follow. However they can and will keep repeating it like a parrort just ignoring the point that they cannot base all there claims and present them with certanities just because one person told them all that. Just forget that anything positive is coming from this. It have nothing to do with any actual info. but its all about personal wish and ego.

On other hand, if you go by logic and some bits and peices of info available you will find that till now, this is what have happened.

CZ Bern seem to be leading the way in 7.62x39mm.
Any official documentation work, MoU, LoU have been signed with CZ alone.
CZ did offered brought ine 7.62x51mm gun to the table, absolutely no idea how much important that development is. All we can do is speculate.
SCAR is an excellent platform but have a very troubled history with over half a dozen rejections, both on financial account and performance based. All that matters.
While SCAR is good it offer relatively similar capability as offered by some other guns and much lower price. THAT HAVE ALWAYS MATTERED.
SCAR have been a priority in x51 category but the CZ leads in x39 and have a x51 option as well (and dealing with one supplier may play some role here) and things are quite mute on the whole procurement process (budget approaching). SCAR is also reported be be coming with an x39 in few months ( Again, dealing with one supplier may be attractive here)
I hope this will help.

P.S. If enough people agree with this post, thank and rate this positive, confirmed of this support I may even start quoting all these points as absolutel certain information on other threads. 

That is how it have been friends.

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> I am not going to show you the video trials but your beloved Berreta and BREN both failed the one part of trial. Berreta in accuracy and CZ the endurance test.


Hazrat you now have a video of the trials? If you have it then let's see it as they say put your money where your mouth is and show us the failure? Talk is cheap Hazrat and your FN SCAR *if* it did well in trials then rest assured it will do extremely badly in day to day usage as proven to you already.

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat you now have a video of the trials? If you have it then let's see it as they say put your money where your mouth is and show us the failure? Talk is cheap Hazrat and your FN SCAR *if* it did well in trials then rest assured it will do extremely badly in day to day usage as proven to you already.


CZ failed endurance trials and Beretta failed accuracy trials and this has been confirmed not just by @Horus but various other guys to me. So you want to show anger or what ever that is your issue that won't change the reality


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## Path-Finder

Arsalan said:


> You guys dont get it, do you?
> There is no proof, no confirmation and one is unlikely until an actual deal is signed and we are ready to go into production. Till that time everybody is speculating, some using logic, some using some real information and others using facebook (jo naam ha itemaad ka). So forget any confirmation or proof being shared.
> People will keep talking about videos and exploding guns but infact they know 5hit. All there info is based on stories told to them by facebook accounts they follow. However they can and will keep repeating it like a parrort just ignoring the point that they cannot base all there claims and present them with certanities just because one person told them all that. Just forget that anything positive is coming from this. It have nothing to do with any actual info. but its all about personal wish and ego.
> 
> On other hand, if you go by logic and some bits and peices of info available you will find that till now, this is what have happened.
> 
> CZ Bern seem to be leading the way in 7.62x39mm.
> Any official documentation work, MoU, LoU have been signed with CZ alone.
> CZ did offered brought ine 7.62x51mm gun to the table, absolutely no idea how much important that development is. All we can do is speculate.
> SCAR is an excellent platform but have a very troubled history with over half a dozen rejections, both on financial account and performance based. All that matters.
> While SCAR is good it offer relatively similar capability as offered by some other guns and much lower price. THAT HAVE ALWAYS MATTERED.
> SCAR have been a priority in x51 category but the CZ leads in x39 and have a x51 option as well (and dealing with one supplier may play some role here) and things are quite mute on the whole procurement process (budget approaching). SCAR is also reported be be coming with an x39 in few months ( Again, dealing with one supplier may be attractive here)
> I hope this will help.
> 
> P.S. If enough people agree with this post, thank and rate this positive, confirmed of this support I may even start quoting all these points as absolutel certain information on other threads.
> 
> That is how it have been friends.



If I may add one thing! Our Hazrat in the past would give an example of buying a car when talking about trials _and_ the SCAR rifle. I once bought a Renault Clio it was a great car when I test drove it! The emphasis is on test drive it was beyond what I expected thus seeing how well it did in the test drive I purchased the car.

Now here is the thing my test drive went beyond what I anticipated of it, the experience was unlike other car makers. *BUT then I had to live with it!! *You see the day to day churn of having it became quite difficult for me as it began to cost to keep it as it displayed numerous faults. It looked good and it drove well however it possessed a unfortunate factor of being unreliable! Then I got another Clio but that did slightly better however it would be my last Renault.

If SCAR did well in Trials then hurrah. But as evidence presented here from USSOCOM and other nations like the Colombian chap, after the trials it all falls flat on its ar$e. Multiple people have pointed out the unknown support from FN as well!

Just my POV. 



Zarvan said:


> CZ failed endurance trials and Beretta failed accuracy trials and this has been confirmed not just by @Horus but various other guys to me. So you want to show anger or what ever that is your issue that won't change the reality


Lets see it Hazrat? show the Video to us!

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## PAR 5

This thread is simply getting boring and annoyingly repetitive with the same narrative day in and day out. Suggest you close it and simply start a new one AS, WHEN and IF Pakistan Armed Forces actually buy SCAR or ARX or a Ghulail for that matter.

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## Gryphon

PAR 5 said:


> This thread is simply getting boring and annoyingly repetitive with the same narrative day in and day out. Suggest you close it and simply start a new one AS, WHEN and IF Pakistan Armed Forces actually buy SCAR or ARX or a Ghulail for that matter.



Nobody is forcing you watch this thread.

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## Muhammad Omar

Other then the cost issue
If PA Selects Scar did they Agree to give the TOT of it and to produce it in the POF Pakistan???


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## Zarvan

Muhammad Omar said:


> Other then the cost issue
> If PA Selects Scar did they Agree to give the TOT of it and to produce it in the POF Pakistan???


Yes also permission to export SCAR



Muhammad Omar said:


> Other then the cost issue
> If PA Selects Scar did they Agree to give the TOT of it and to produce it in the POF Pakistan???


These terms are being offered by all three main guys. SCAR and Beretta and BREN

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## The Eagle

Zarvan said:


> Well first of with SCAR we are getting all versions including Sniper Guns. Secondly we are getting FN Minimi thirdly we are getting handguns. In other worlds all the weapons a soldier carries. As for Beretta well it failed the accuracy test and BREN blasted during the test. And right now we are not looking for a Rifle with 5.56 X 45 category.



Don't ever think that we are fool to keep ARX in top qualifier as second best, still after whatever you claimed. Frankly speaking, there are certain things into play and as said, ARX is still a competitor then I will keep it as qualified as second best. However, speaking of first and second best, we don't have any official statement in this regard not even the guys from FN-H. Sometimes, what things appear to be, are not what they are like a tea whitener is not milk. 

SCAR is the best refile, even sometimes I repeat it while sleeping due to continues repetition on this thread, but still there are certain things kept in view as well as other goodies/bonuses too. Do you have any credible source etc to say as what FN-H offered as complete package and the same is number one in trials. You are merely looking at best performed yet others sees various things beside performance. SCAR performed well but if the same failed to offer a sweet deal like others of second best, I have no regret seeing ARX as selected. BTW, observations to be based upon development, inked material through credible sources rather some anonymous messages. Trust me, only high ranked discusses the topic and may have some sort of info that lower ranks could be clueless in this regard due to sensitivity, a future program as well as involved budget. 

Let's assume, ARX is not just offering whatever offered by the FN-H but is leading due to couple of more offers for other forces/goodies/equipment, if this contract goes well with Italy then why would I chose a limited offer for expensive gear than affordable offer with more bonuses. That was the reason of the post as what I observed to express or to know about by members here.

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## Zarvan

The Eagle said:


> Don't ever think that we are fool to keep ARX in top qualifier as second best, still after whatever you claimed. Frankly speaking, there are certain things into play and as said, ARX is still a competitor then I will keep it as qualified as second best. However, speaking of first and second best, we don't have any official statement in this regard not even the guys from FN-H. Sometimes, what things appear to be, are not what they are like a tea whitener is not milk.
> 
> SCAR is the best refile, even sometimes I repeat it while sleeping due to continues repetition on this thread, but still there are certain things kept in view as well as other goodies/bonuses too. Do you have any credible source etc to say as what FN-H offered as complete package and the same is number one in trials. You are merely looking at best performed yet others sees various things beside performance. SCAR performed well but if the same failed to offer a sweet deal like others of second best, I have no regret seeing ARX as selected. BTW, observations to be based upon development, inked material through credible sources rather some anonymous messages. Trust me, only high ranked discusses the topic and may have some sort of info that lower ranks could be clueless in this regard due to sensitivity, a future program as well as involved budget.
> 
> Let's assume, ARX is not just offering whatever offered by the FN-H but is leading due to couple of more offers for other forces/goodies/equipment, if this contract goes well with Italy then why would I chose a limited offer for expensive gear than affordable offer with more bonuses. That was the reason of the post as what I observed to express or to know about by members here.


Soldiers who tested are not much impressed with Beretta ARX 200 and it failed the accuracy tests and as for offer FN are pretty much offering a great deal all version in fact there 7.62 X 39 is also coming for testing and also Sniper Guns and HandGuns and not forget world famous Minimi both Infantry version and Special Forces version


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## The Eagle

Zarvan said:


> Soldiers who tested are not much impressed with Beretta ARX 200 and it failed the accuracy tests and as for offer FN are pretty much offering a great deal all version in fact there 7.62 X 39 is also coming for testing and also Sniper Guns and HandGuns and not forget world famous Minimi both Infantry version and Special Forces version




Who said that? 

All of the offers are Guns only. You totally missed the point in my post. If ARX failed accuracy, why is it still second best even if to go by your words? If ARX is still as second best (using second best due to continuously spoken on forum only) then something is good with it. Trials means test it, if it failed once then they came back with solution and what if the same satisfied the Soldier hence, kept as possible option. The term First and Second best would have been used for field trials only but when it comes to the table and offering package, who knows which leads the way. Only firing the bullets cannot approve the same as leading the contract though one can say that, SCAR proved to be the leading Rifle in field yet its possibility in view of contract clauses and offers, is to be seen or unknown. You cannot claim something like this that Army itself is keeping it away from public domain.

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## Zarvan

The Eagle said:


> Who said that?
> 
> All of the offers are Guns only. You totally missed the point in my post. If ARX failed accuracy, why is it still second best even if to go by your words? If ARX is still as second best (using second best due to continuously spoken on forum only) then something is good with it. Trials means test it, if it failed once then they came back with solution and what if the same satisfied the Soldier hence, kept as possible option. The term First and Second best would have been used for field trials only but when it comes to the table and offering package, who knows which leads the way. Only firing the bullets cannot approve the same as leading the contract though one can say that, SCAR proved to be the leading Rifle in field yet its possibility in view of contract clauses and offers, is to be seen or unknown. You cannot claim something like this that Army itself is keeping it away from public domain.


Because there were only two rifles in X 51 category one was SCAR H and one was Beretta ARX 200 and we are looking for Rifles mainly we are not looking for optics right now. Right Army focus is on getting new Assault Rifle and handguns and Machine Guns. Than we would focus on optics and grenade launchers and for that mostly likely we are going to Turkish companies like 3E EOS and Aselsan and who says that I think you need to check with Mr @Horus yourself and I have other sources also which I can't share here they include Army officers and other close guys.

As for Beretta it failed the accuracy test only it passed all other tests and that accuracy test issue can be resolved with some effort.

FN Minimi SPW 5.56, Suriye.


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## The Eagle

Zarvan said:


> As for Beretta it failed the accuracy test only it passed all other tests and that accuracy test issue can be resolved with some effort.



The only concern that I received accurately on my post, is the thing as you stated above. Where an issue can be resolved by manufacturer that means, no complaint with only accuracy area of ARX. In the end, it makes it as perfect as SCAR then it comes to the attractive package being offered by both the manufacturers and IMO, Italian holds more ground in this Area. SCAR in France case and then with US did not end well. I did not point about optics at all as Guns, optics, its relevant gears wouldn't be whole package by the suppliers but Italian's bags could be filled with many more things for other forces as they can convince by starting with Army, to save this contract and compromise a bit of profit in single contract that can be recovered in other contracts. 

I understand what Horus told and can imagine, how much he holds back due to many reason unknown. 

Italians helped upgrade POF, wasn't useless as IMO, they scored first point in this regard. Till now, contract table isn't set for single supplier but nothing finalized and still there are many possibilities that we cannot be that sure about new Rifle.

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## Zarvan

The Eagle said:


> The only concern that I received accurately on my post, is the thing as you stated above. Where an issue can be resolved by manufacturer that means, no complaint with only accuracy area of ARX. In the end, it makes it as perfect as SCAR then it comes to the attractive package being offered by both the manufacturers and IMO, Italian holds more ground in this Area. SCAR in France case and then with US did not end well. I did not point about optics at all as Guns, optics, its relevant gears wouldn't be whole package by the suppliers but Italian's bags could be filled with many more things for other forces as they can convince by starting with Army, to save this contract and compromise a bit of profit in single contract that can be recovered in other contracts.
> 
> Italians helped upgrade POF, wasn't useless as IMO, they scored first point in this regard.


SCAR passed all our tests and it ended well for us. In tests and in IDEX 2017 they are given a green signal go check it yourself Sir. And SCAR is offering better package to us as we are testing both Machine Guns and HandGuns also and we would also get Sniper versions of SCAR. So a great package and France tested it's L version although we are also satisfied with L version of SCAR. I forgot Carbine version will also come


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## Path-Finder

@The Eagle you just got everything well versed repeated back to you! 



Zarvan said:


> SCAR passed all our tests and it ended well for us. In tests and in *IDEX 2017 they are given a green signal go check it yourself Sir.* And SCAR is offering better package to us as we are testing both Machine Guns and HandGuns also and we would also get Sniper versions of SCAR. So a great package and France tested it's L version although we are also satisfied with L version of SCAR. I forgot Carbine version will also come


Hazrat what green signal was given in IDEX 2017? please share it with us!!


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> @The Eagle you just got everything well versed repeated back to you!
> 
> 
> Hazrat what green signal was given in IDEX 2017? please share it with us!!


Final talks to have contract have begun


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Final talks to have contract have begun


Hazrat do you have a verifiable link like news paper/online. or is it a source


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat do you have a verifiable link like news paper/online. or is it a source


You just wait for the announcement


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> You just wait for the announcement


Hazrat it's now the 4th month, just remember that!!


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## Rafi

SCAR is toast lol.

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## django

Zarvan said:


> Soldiers who tested are not much impressed with Beretta ARX 200 and it failed the accuracy tests and as for offer FN are pretty much offering a great deal all version in fact there 7.62 X 39 is also coming for testing and also Sniper Guns and HandGuns and not forget world famous Minimi both Infantry version and Special Forces version


For crying out aloud SCAR-L failed in it's accuracy tests according to "sources" yet you are happily advocating it for SSG and I am not even going to mention the US Rangers or Colombians and Peruvians.


*SCAR was the best performing rifle in tests *

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## Vergennes

Rafi said:


> SCAR is toast lol.





django said:


> For crying out aloud SCAR-L failed in it's accuracy tests according to "sources" yet you are happily advocating it for SSG and I am not even going to mention the US Rangers or Colombians and Peruvians.
> 
> 
> *SCAR was the best performing rifle in tests *



@Path-Finder

SCAR was the best performing rifle in tests. Manuals have been given to officers and POF will soon mass produce it and provide it to army,paramilitary,police etc.
Price ? We can afford it,our army officers didn't wake up one day and said "Hey,let's organize a tender". Everything was planned. CZ and other rifles exploded.
-
Credit must be given to @Zarvan on how he's well defending his baby,the SCAR. If he defends it so well,I wonder how is he defending Pakistan.

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## Path-Finder

Vergennes said:


> @Path-Finder
> 
> SCAR was the best performing rifle in tests. Manuals have been given to officers and POF will soon mass produce it and provide it to army,paramilitary,police etc.
> Price ? We can afford it,our army officers didn't wake up one day and said "Hey,let's organize a tender". Everything was planned. CZ and other rifles exploded.
> -
> Credit must be given to @Zarvan on how he's well defending his baby,the SCAR. If he defends it so well,I wonder how is he defending Pakistan.


Just to add; Its like buying a car you are investing money for 40 years, and USSOCOM GIGN are inexperienced and unable to handle the finest creation like SCAR. CZ blewup and Beretta tried to Bribe and ARX weighs 1kg more than the official stated figures.

actually SCAR won before the trials had even finished 

Pakistan's Service Rifle (G-3, Type-56) Replacement Competition 2016.

@django

Pakistan's Service Rifle (G-3, Type-56) Replacement Competition 2016.

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## Gryphon

You guys are harassing the SCAR maulana..

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## Path-Finder

You know the funny thing is our Hazrat was already told about SCAR's reality over a year ago 
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paki...6-replacement-competition-2016.426049/page-43


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## django

Path-Finder said:


> Just to add; Its like buying a car you are investing money for 40 years, and USSOCOM GIGN are inexperienced and unable to handle the finest creation like SCAR. CZ blewup and Beretta tried to Bribe and ARX weighs 1kg more than the official stated figures.
> 
> actually SCAR won before the trials had even finished
> 
> Pakistan's Service Rifle (G-3, Type-56) Replacement Competition 2016.
> 
> @django
> 
> Pakistan's Service Rifle (G-3, Type-56) Replacement Competition 2016.


You know he was initially obsessed with MPT-76 then all of a sudden he saw the SCAR and love at first sight

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## Path-Finder

django said:


> You know he was initially obsessed with MPT-76 then all of a sudden he saw the SCAR and love at first sight


Heck even I was supporting SCAR back then  But the truth set me free! check this out the date when SCAR mania began!
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paki...6-replacement-competition-2016.426049/page-43

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## django

Path-Finder said:


> Heck even I was supporting SCAR back then  But the truth set me free! check this out the date when SCAR mania began!
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paki...6-replacement-competition-2016.426049/page-43


So I guess I am not the only one who was gullible enough to get swayed by his derwishry truthfully I was all on board the SCAR until you started to expose his arguments, all he had was to fall back on mysterious unnamed unverifiable "sources"lol:

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## The Eagle

Zarvan said:


> Final talks to have contract have begun



How long it is going to take especially since you told us about distribution of SCAR brochure as future rifle. Also, are we going to select SCAR for all the categories or SCAR along-with CZ for the respective calibers. These talks are only with FN-H or anyone else too?

In short and precise please.


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## That Guy

Arsalan said:


> You guys dont get it, do you?
> There is no proof, no confirmation and one is unlikely until an actual deal is signed and we are ready to go into production. Till that time everybody is speculating, some using logic, some using some real information and others using facebook (jo naam ha itemaad ka). So forget any confirmation or proof being shared.
> People will keep talking about videos and exploding guns but infact they know 5hit. All there info is based on stories told to them by facebook accounts they follow. However they can and will keep repeating it like a parrort just ignoring the point that they cannot base all there claims and present them with certanities just because one person told them all that. Just forget that anything positive is coming from this. It have nothing to do with any actual info. but its all about personal wish and ego.
> 
> On other hand, if you go by logic and some bits and peices of info available you will find that till now, this is what have happened.
> 
> CZ Bern seem to be leading the way in 7.62x39mm.
> Any official documentation work, MoU, LoU have been signed with CZ alone.
> CZ did offered brought ine 7.62x51mm gun to the table, absolutely no idea how much important that development is. All we can do is speculate.
> SCAR is an excellent platform but have a very troubled history with over half a dozen rejections, both on financial account and performance based. All that matters.
> While SCAR is good it offer relatively similar capability as offered by some other guns and much lower price. THAT HAVE ALWAYS MATTERED.
> SCAR have been a priority in x51 category but the CZ leads in x39 and have a x51 option as well (and dealing with one supplier may play some role here) and things are quite mute on the whole procurement process (budget approaching). SCAR is also reported be be coming with an x39 in few months ( Again, dealing with one supplier may be attractive here)
> I hope this will help.
> 
> P.S. If enough people agree with this post, thank and rate this positive, confirmed of this support I may even start quoting all these points as absolutel certain information on other threads.
> 
> That is how it have been friends.


I mean, to be fair, I'm also skeptical that both the 7.62 and the 5.56 will both get replacements. I have this nagging feeling that the G-3 replacement may actually be postponed for another 10 years, in favor of quickly replacing the type 56.


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## Path-Finder

That Guy said:


> I mean, to be fair, I'm also skeptical that both the 7.62 and the 5.56 will both get replacements. I have this nagging feeling that the G-3 replacement may actually be postponed for another 10 years, in favor of quickly replacing the type 56.


you have a very valid theory! x51 is not being used widely other than DMR and SAW. 300blackout which is considered Frankenstein offspring of x39 & 556 is being touted to replace 556. replacing just Type 56 for now makes complete sense!

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## Zarvan

django said:


> For crying out aloud SCAR-L failed in it's accuracy tests according to "sources" yet you are happily advocating it for SSG and I am not even going to mention the US Rangers or Colombians and Peruvians.
> 
> 
> *SCAR was the best performing rifle in tests *


It didn't failed in our trials so How it passed most severe conditions if it failed around the world. Please answer me from your wisdom



That Guy said:


> I mean, to be fair, I'm also skeptical that both the 7.62 and the 5.56 will both get replacements. I have this nagging feeling that the G-3 replacement may actually be postponed for another 10 years, in favor of quickly replacing the type 56.


Pakistan is more interested in replacing G3 than replacing Type 56 as a matter of fact Army may drop 7.62 X 39 caliber



The Eagle said:


> How long it is going to take especially since you told us about distribution of SCAR brochure as future rifle. Also, are we going to select SCAR for all the categories or SCAR along-with CZ for the respective calibers. These talks are only with FN-H or anyone else too?
> 
> In short and precise please.


Not very long going for a Rifle is 50 year investment. We are using G3 for 50 years now so replacement deal taking time



django said:


> So I guess I am not the only one who was gullible enough to get swayed by his derwishry truthfully I was all on board the SCAR until you started to expose his arguments, all he had was to fall back on mysterious unnamed unverifiable "sources"lol:


He exposed nothing and SCAR has won all Pakistani trials if people are so innocent that they think a Rifle which passed tests in 50 C to -50 C temperature failed tests in less severe conditions than nothing can be done about this behavior

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## django

Zarvan said:


> It didn't failed in our trials so How it passed most severe conditions if it failed around the world. Please answer me from your wisdom


Zarvan, Zarvan.....Zarvan more claims upon claims, please provide us folks with an official link which states your "jaa-nay-man" passed all tests with flying colours??????? the bitter truth for you is US Rangers with all the immense resources at their disposal switched back to M4, that is the bitter truth. It is a bloody failure, more and more are rejecting it, I have a feeling it will turn out to be the Belgian SA-80....... @Path-Finder

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## Zarvan

django said:


> Zarvan, Zarvan.....Zarvan more claims upon claims, please provide us folks with an official link which states your "jaa-nay-man" passed all tests with flying colours??????? the bitter truth for you is US Rangers with all the immense resources at their disposal switched back to M4, that is the bitter truth. It is a bloody failure, more and more are rejecting it, I have a feeling it will turn out to be the Belgian SA-80....... @Path-Finder


Well Rangers switched back to M4 not because SCAR was't a better rifle but they bring up cost issue. It's bloody good Rifle which passed all our tests and tell me one other country which tests rifle in conditions ranging from -50 C to 50 C temperature other than Pakistan and India. And many Special Forces around the world are adopting SCAR L and SCAR H. More and more Special Forces are adopting SCAR if you are so blind in your hatred than I can do nothing about that.


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## Path-Finder

django said:


> Zarvan, Zarvan.....Zarvan more claims upon claims, please provide us folks with an official link which states your "jaa-nay-man" passed all tests with flying colours??????? the bitter truth for you is US Rangers with all the immense resources at their disposal switched back to M4, that is the bitter truth. It is a bloody failure, more and more are rejecting it, I have a feeling it will turn out to be the Belgian SA-80....... @Path-Finder


Come what may he is fixated on SCAR no matter how much proof and evidence you bring they will deny it. Hazrat couldn't answer the question on why USSOCOM shelved it so he took the financial route for a nation loaded with money. The chap from Colombia who says he is experienced with SCAR is not acceptable and point out the debacle in Peru. France is the latest country to reject it. 

Now France is a country which has high Alps mountains where temperatures drop to -50C then it has overseas base in Djibouti where temperatures reach up to +60C but it didn't win. 

Hazrat will say these people US French Peruvian need to submit a report to him explaining the failure to be acceptable. 2 nations adopted one has shelved it the other has been bribed by FN. 

Car example is another ploy of our Hazrat now if a car passes its road test and you buy it. I gave my example but if a car like the rifle passes the test. But then it comes under daily scrutiny at the hands of the driver or soldier. Now test are NOT a true reflection of how it will fair the daily abuse at the hands of a soldier. The trials are merely set to see if it matches a set perceived or arbitrary limitations. Two completely different things trial and daily use!!! 

An investment of 3 decades that nation will pay via taxes for a weapon NOT being widely adopted after mass rejection is our Hazrats sanity prevailing. Its not like Hazrat paid or spent his own money.



Zarvan said:


> Well Rangers switched back to M4 not because SCAR was't a better rifle but they bring up cost issue. It's bloody good Rifle which passed all our tests and tell me one other country which tests rifle in conditions ranging from -50 C to 50 C temperature other than Pakistan and India. And many Special Forces around the world are adopting SCAR L and SCAR H. More and more Special Forces are adopting SCAR if you are so blind in your hatred than I can do nothing about that.


Hazrat come with a better excuse the US is not broke that it couldn't afford few SCAR for ther spec ops. 

It seems to be like you are narcissistic we have to repeat the same thing again and again.

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Come what may he is fixated on SCAR no matter how much proof and evidence you bring they will deny it. Hazrat couldn't answer the question on why USSOCOM shelved it so he took the financial route for a nation loaded with money. The chap from Colombia who says he is experienced with SCAR is not acceptable and point out the debacle in Peru. France is the latest country to reject it.
> 
> Now France is a country which has high Alps mountains where temperatures drop to -50C then it has overseas base in Djibouti where temperatures reach up to +60C but it didn't win.
> 
> Hazrat will say these people US French Peruvian need to submit a report to him explaining the failure to be acceptable. 2 nations adopted one has shelved it the other has been bribed by FN.
> 
> Car example is another ploy of our Hazrat now if a car passes its road test and you buy it. I gave my example but if a car like the rifle passes the test. But then it comes under daily scrutiny at the hands of the driver or soldier. Now test are NOT a true reflection of how it will fair the daily abuse at the hands of a soldier. The trials are merely set to see if it matches a set perceived or arbitrary limitations. Two completely different things trial and daily use!!!
> 
> An investment of 3 decades that nation will pay via taxes for a weapon NOT being widely adopted after mass rejection is our Hazrats sanity prevailing. Its not like Hazrat paid or spent his own money.
> 
> 
> Hazrat come with a better excuse the US is not broke that it couldn't afford few SCAR for ther spec ops.
> 
> It seems to be like you are narcissistic we have to repeat the same thing again and again.


Pakistani trials are biggest proof of SCAR performance we tested it worst possible condition where wars are fought and only Pakistan and India are craziest Armies whose soldiers are deployed in areas where there is -50 C temperature and than there is area where temperature is as high as 50 C. I am not at denial mode you just because of me hate SCAR this shows your views about defence and I can only laugh at your amusing thoughts. SCAR is coming and all sources are confirming it not just @Horus confusion is about Type 56. SCAR may also come up with its 7.62 X 39 version and if it passes test we would go for it also other wise may be some other rifle or we may drop 7.62 X 39 because if you have noticed SSG and SSGN and LCB are mostly using M4 now which is 5.56 X 45 caliber.


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## CHACHA"G"

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat everyone is laughing at you, sorry but you are running on a empty tank and that is why you are repeating old baloney with nothing new. So unless you have thought of something new. I am going to sleep and till tomorrow. SCAR is the best rifle in Trials


I really want this to end, Man @Zarvan bro you taking it to far............... Just for once think what if final talks fails ????????
@django and @Path-Finder yaar please you 2 stop ,,,,,,,,,,, Please , please , He not going to stop........... can you guys  Abbay yaar abb Shaib Ke Jann Lo gay kiya!!!!!!!!!!

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## django

Path-Finder said:


> Come what may he is fixated on SCAR no matter how much proof and evidence you bring they will deny it. Hazrat couldn't answer the question on why USSOCOM shelved it so he took the financial route for a nation loaded with money. The chap from Colombia who says he is experienced with SCAR is not acceptable and point out the debacle in Peru. France is the latest country to reject it.
> 
> Now France is a country which has high Alps mountains where temperatures drop to -50C then it has overseas base in Djibouti where temperatures reach up to +60C but it didn't win.
> 
> Hazrat will say these people US French Peruvian need to submit a report to him explaining the failure to be acceptable. 2 nations adopted one has shelved it the other has been bribed by FN.
> 
> Car example is another ploy of our Hazrat now if a car passes its road test and you buy it. I gave my example but if a car like the rifle passes the test. But then it comes under daily scrutiny at the hands of the driver or soldier. Now test are NOT a true reflection of how it will fair the daily abuse at the hands of a soldier. The trials are merely set to see if it matches a set perceived or arbitrary limitations. Two completely different things trial and daily use!!!
> 
> An investment of 3 decades that nation will pay via taxes for a weapon NOT being widely adopted after mass rejection is our Hazrats sanity prevailing. Its not like Hazrat paid or spent his own money.


Excellent rebuttal to the spurious claims of Hazrat @Zarvan ......And since when Hazrat have LCB adopted M4, the fact is they love kitted out type-56 as does any Pak jawan I talk too.



CHACHA"G" said:


> I really want this to end, Man @Zarvan bro you taking it to far............... Just for once think what if final talks fails ????????
> @django and @Path-Finder yaar please you 2 stop ,,,,,,,,,,, Please , please , He not going to stop........... can you guys  Abbay yaar abb Shaib Ke Jann Lo gay kiya!!!!!!!!!!


Bro the facts are Hazrat has made a lot of people feel like gullible fools, by making claims of watertight sources within the Pak military who are in awe of the recoil, reliablity and accuracy of SCAR, after @Path-Finder research and scrutiny, all his arguments melted like ice in the desert


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## That Guy

Zarvan said:


> Pakistan is more interested in replacing G3 than replacing Type 56 as a matter of fact Army may drop 7.62 X 39 caliber


Considering that they opened a 7.62x39 manufacturing plant just last year, I doubt that. In fact, the Type 56 has been very useful and popular in the war against militancy, and the army sees that usefulness. It's only logical to replace the Type 56 with a better rifle, to get even better results. There is a higher urgency to replace the type 56, because of just how much in demand the 7.62x39 caliber is with the front line infantry.



Path-Finder said:


> you have a very valid theory! x51 is not being used widely other than DMR and SAW. 300blackout which is considered Frankenstein offspring of x39 & 556 is being touted to replace 556. replacing just Type 56 for now makes complete sense!


Isn't the .300BLK super expensive to produce?

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## pzfz

none of the Pakmil issued rifles need replacing besides the g3, and that too only for weight reduction purposes. type 56 ii is just fine. unfortunately Pak does not have the requisite technical ability to modify the already restricting g3 design to better suit the needs to today's battlefield. however, i'll maintain that there is absolutely no need to rush into such a decision which will affect the armed forces for at least the next 50 years. the important questions regarding what type of force we want to be well into the future is not being had; such is the case with all pakmil acquisitions. 10 years later they'll again look for a newer rifle ala agosta90b, f22p, and jf17.

get a 762 nato round issue for special forces only and equip the main forces with the type 56 ii. 762 nato is also too powerful/big for most of our jawans to handle. make the g3/g3m a dmr as it has excellent one-round accuracy. there's nothing revolutionary with either the scar or cz. at least the arx is multi-caliber. no need to waste money...

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## Zarvan

That Guy said:


> Considering that they opened a 7.62x39 manufacturing plant just last year, I doubt that. In fact, the Type 56 has been very useful and popular in the war against militancy, and the army sees that usefulness. It's only logical to replace the Type 56 with a better rifle, to get even better results. There is a higher urgency to replace the type 56, because of just how much in demand the 7.62x39 caliber is with the front line infantry.
> 
> 
> Isn't the .300BLK super expensive to produce?


If you haven't noticed SSG and even LCB guys have stopped using Type 56 and they are now using M4.


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## That Guy

Zarvan said:


> If you haven't noticed SSG and even LCB guys have stopped using Type 56 and they are now using M4.


Those are SSG and LCB, not GI.

Your argument here is invalid.


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## Zarvan

That Guy said:


> Those are SSG and LCB, not GI.
> 
> Your argument here is invalid.


No point is 7.62 X 39 caliber is not that important for Army. Army considers 7.62 X 51 as there caliber and many LCB guys are also using M4


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## That Guy

Zarvan said:


> No point is 7.62 X 39 caliber is not that important for Army. Army considers 7.62 X 51 as there caliber and many LCB guys are also using M4


Again, the fact that the army opened a 7.62x39 manufacturing plant, JUST LAST YEAR, proves you wrong.

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## Zarvan

That Guy said:


> Again, the fact that the army opened a 7.62x39 manufacturing plant, JUST LAST YEAR, proves you wrong.


No it doesn't because we are the biggest exporter of 7.62 X 39 ammunition to Middle East and other countries in Africa


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## That Guy

Zarvan said:


> No it doesn't because we are the biggest exporter of 7.62 X 39 ammunition to Middle East and other countries in Africa


And for local army consumption, or do you think the type 56 shoots paint balls? You don't open a single plant just for export purposes.

But let's say you're right about the export point, the competition itself proves you wrong.


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## Army research

Zarvan said:


> No it doesn't because we are the biggest exporter of 7.62 X 39 ammunition to Middle East and other countries in Africa


Being from an army background and knowing loads of people from ALL ranks , .39 is the new norm, from kashmir to Marines , from wagha to Torkham, SSG and LCB , siachien and Balochistan

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## Zarvan

Army research said:


> Being from an army background and knowing loads of people from ALL ranks , .39 is the new norm, from kashmir to Marines , from wagha to Torkham, SSG and LCB , siachien and Balochistan


The new norm is already getting replaced by M4. Most soldiers at all these spots are using M4.


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## Kompromat

*SUMMER TRIALS - SUMMERY 
*
All rifles were tested in hot environment with 200 rounds for each test, i.e under the direct sunlight conditions, under the shade, mud, sand tests etc

Water immersion test | No stoppages

Slush test | there were stoppages on all rifles except none for AK-103 due to its powerful spring, and least stoppages for FN Scar.

Sand Test | there were stoppages on all rifles except none for AK-103 due to its powerful spring, and least stoppages for FN Scar.

Mud Test | All had many stoppages, SCAR stopped 4 time, marking the lowest number.

For Sustained Fire Test | 200 rounds / 10x magazines with immediate reload - Conducted twice.

FN SCAR H : Passed
Beretta : Didn't had appropriate number of magazines so each time it was refilled thus not passing the criteria.
Chinese AK : Passed
CZ (x51) : More than 15 stoppages after only 2-3 magazines; couldn't finish the test.
MKEK MPT-76 : 3 stoppages and the magazine was very difficult to remove while the weapon was hot.
Zastava : 3 stoppages
G3-A3 : 3 stoppages
AK-103 : 3 stoppages
CZ (x39 ) : 10 stoppages and after the test, the weapon was too hot to maintain it correctly.

At first instance this test was conducted in the open desert where outside temperature was very hot 54 or 55 deg C and the user first exposed all the rifles to outside temperature against sun for an hour or so and then immediately fired 200 shots on all the rifles. 

SCAR passed these number of rounds without any jam and hence cooked off 2 times 

Zastava M-77P also fired 200 shots with one stoppage and cooked off 3 times.

The Turkish MKEK MPT-76 fired 200 shots with two or three stoppage and cooked off 2 times and its plastic parts started burning as well. 

Betretta didn't have appropriate number of magazines i.e., 10 x 20 rds magazines so their test was ignored with the remark that they don't have sufficient magazines.

Ceska Zbrojovka CZ-807 couldn't pass 200 rounds and had more than 12 stoppages or so giving them time for their rifle and its chamber to cool down resulting in no cook off later.

The test was repeated in a shady environment under the trees at a different place where outside temperature was still very hot 53 deg c.

Ceska Zbrojovka CZ-807 couldn't pass 200 rounds and had more than 10-12 stoppages giving them time for their rifle and its chamber to cool down resulting no cook off.

Betretta had only 06 magazines for ARX-200 so they refilled 04 magazines quickly which got them time resulting in no cook off.

SCAR passed 200 rounds without any jam and hence cooked off 2 times.

Zastava M-77P also fired 200 shots with no stoppage and cooked off 2 times.

The Turkish MKEK MPT-76 also fired 200 shots with one stoppage and cooked off 1 time and again with its plastic parts smelled like burning. 

So generally the tester regarded all the rifles with cook off in such an environment if they pass 200 shots without any stoppage. Although 200 shots were passed at a different location of summer trials where SCAR did not cook-off.

Technical trials happened during winter as well as summer on all rifles and the rifles which qualified these two trials went through final test of endurance test where 30,000 rounds were fired from 3 of the each rifle of each OEM meaning 10,000 round per rifle, Only following went to this test and FN SCAR with aimpoint sight qualified. While, Beretta was caught cheating, CZ both types failed and their CZ (x39) was caught red handed while replacing rifle parts in violation of the test rules. MKEK MPT-76 failed and AK-103 failed as their chamber and barrel busted at 5000 rounds.

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## Zarvan

Horus said:


> *SUMMER TRIALS - SUMMERY
> *
> All rifles were tested in hot environment with 200 rounds for each test, i.e under the direct sunlight conditions, under the shade, mud, sand tests etc
> 
> Water immersion test | No stoppages
> 
> Slush test | there were stoppages on all rifles except none for AK-103 due to its powerful spring, and least stoppages for FN Scar.
> 
> Sand Test | there were stoppages on all rifles except none for AK-103 due to its powerful spring, and least stoppages for FN Scar.
> 
> Mud Test | All had many stoppages, SCAR stopped 4 time, marking the lowest number.
> 
> For Sustained Fire Test | 200 rounds / 10x magazines with immediate reload - Conducted twice.
> 
> FN SCAR H : Passed
> Beretta : Didn't had appropriate number of magazines so each time it was refilled thus not passing the criteria.
> Chinese AK : Passed
> CZ (x51) : More than 15 stoppages after only 2-3 magazines; couldn't finish the test.
> MKEK MPT-76 : 3 stoppages and the magazine was very difficult to remove while the weapon was hot.
> Zastava : 3 stoppages
> G3-A3 : 3 stoppages
> AK-103 : 3 stoppages
> CZ (x39 ) : 10 stoppages and after the test, the weapon was too hot to maintain it correctly.
> 
> At first instance this test was conducted in the open desert where outside temperature was very hot 54 or 55 deg C and the user first exposed all the rifles to outside temperature against sun for an hour or so and then immediately fired 200 shots on all the rifles.
> 
> SCAR passed these number of rounds without any jam and hence cooked off 2 times
> 
> Zastava M-77P also fired 200 shots with one stoppage and cooked off 3 times.
> 
> The Turkish MKEK MPT-76 fired 200 shots with two or three stoppage and cooked off 2 times and its plastic parts started burning as well.
> 
> Betretta didn't have appropriate number of magazines i.e., 10 x 20 rds magazines so their test was ignored with the remark that they don't have sufficient magazines.
> 
> Ceska Zbrojovka CZ-807 couldn't pass 200 rounds and had more than 12 stoppages or so giving them time for their rifle and its chamber to cool down resulting in no cook off later.
> 
> The test was repeated in a shady environment under the trees at a different place where outside temperature was still very hot 53 deg c.
> 
> Ceska Zbrojovka CZ-807 couldn't pass 200 rounds and had more than 10-12 stoppages giving them time for their rifle and its chamber to cool down resulting no cook off.
> 
> Betretta had only 06 magazines for ARX-200 so they refilled 04 magazines quickly which got them time resulting in no cook off.
> 
> SCAR passed 200 rounds without any jam and hence cooked off 2 times.
> 
> Zastava M-77P also fired 200 shots with no stoppage and cooked off 2 times.
> 
> The Turkish MKEK MPT-76 also fired 200 shots with one stoppage and cooked off 1 time and again with its plastic parts smelled like burning.
> 
> So generally the tester regarded all the rifles with cook off in such an environment if they pass 200 shots without any stoppage. Although 200 shots were passed at a different location of summer trials where SCAR did not cook-off.
> 
> Technical trials happened during winter as well as summer on all rifles and the rifles which qualified these two trials went through final test of endurance test where 30,000 rounds were fired from 3 of the each rifle of each OEM meaning 10,000 round per rifle, Only following went to this test and FN SCAR with aimpoint sight qualified. While, Beretta was caught cheating, CZ both types failed and their CZ (x39) was caught red handed while replacing rifle parts in violation of the test rules. MKEK MPT-76 failed and AK-103 failed as their chamber and barrel busted at 5000 rounds.


And finally our missing mod return thanks a lot for returning Sir

@Path-Finder @Arsalan @The Eagle Please free to study the results Sir @Army research @django

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> And finally our missing mod return thanks a lot for returning Sir
> 
> @Path-Finder @Arsalan @The Eagle Please free to study the results Sir @Army research @django


Is this the official results?


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Is this the official results?


What else you are thinking @Horus made it up ????????????


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> What else you are thinking @Horus made it up ????????????


Did I say that? I said is this official trial result? I know you will dance to this Hazrat as the absolute truth however I am not convinced I want multiple sources to verify it.

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Did I say that? I said is this official trial result? I know you will dance to this Hazrat as the absolute truth however I am not convinced I want multiple sources to verify it.


Man you are really amusing and yes these are official results now I am interested to know about winter trials


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Man you are really amusing and yes these are official results now I am interested to know about winter trials


No one is doubting you. You will believe that straight away but I want same thing to verified officially. Now you have been provided extra material for cheerleading you do your thing and the sensible members will do theirs.


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> No one is doubting you. You will believe that straight away but I want same thing to verified officially. Now you have been provided extra material for cheerleading you do your thing and the sensible members will do theirs.


Sir please feel free to get it verified from anywhere you like


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Sir please feel free to get it verified from anywhere you like


No Hazrat i am not going to rely on the social media expertise but rather wait for the official announcement. Every time horus appears the story gets even weirder. Thus I take everything with a pinch of salt.

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## Vergennes

Path-Finder said:


> Now France is a country which has high Alps mountains where temperatures drop to -50C then it has overseas base in Djibouti where temperatures reach up to +60C but it didn't win.
> 
> Hazrat will say these people US French Peruvian need to submit a report to him explaining the failure to be acceptable. 2 nations adopted one has shelved it the other has been bribed by FN.



The French special forces literally switched from the SCAR to the 416 and not because of cost issues...... but because it had recurrent defects and some parts were very fragile and easily breakable. The rifle has still some defects that FN still didn't resolve.

The 416 was tested in every environments possible,mountains,deserts,jungle etc. and it's not for nothing every special forces units are using it and now the regular forces will use it.

Sorry,but the USSOCOM switching back from the SCAR to the M4 for cost issues seems BS to me. How would Pakistan afford it if the Americans can't ?

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## Zarvan

Vergennes said:


> The French special forces literally switched from the SCAR to the 416 and not because of cost issues...... but because it had recurrent defects and some parts were very fragile and easily breakable. The rifle has still some defects that FN still didn't resolve.
> 
> The 416 was tested in every environments possible,mountains,deserts,jungle etc. and it's not for nothing every special forces units are using it and now the regular forces will use it.
> 
> Sorry,but the USSOCOM switching back from the SCAR to the M4 for cost issues seems BS to me. How would Pakistan afford it if the Americans can't ?


Ask USA where they are spending money in Pakistan soldiers family when he is martyred gets pension plots agricultural land and his children free education and free health care in Army hospitals but many of USA retired soldiers die on roads so ask USA where are they spending there money

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## Path-Finder

CHACHA"G" said:


> I really want this to end, Man @Zarvan bro you taking it to far............... Just for once think what if final talks fails ????????
> @django and @Path-Finder yaar please you 2 stop ,,,,,,,,,,, Please , please , He not going to stop........... can you guys  Abbay yaar abb Shaib Ke Jann Lo gay kiya!!!!!!!!!!


Chacha ji we are all into our rifle trials with incredible anticipation. It's the passionate love of SCAR that our Hazrat is displaying. While the rest of us are driven by fact finding. That is the difference

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## Kompromat

Not official. For that I'd have to reveal the source. 



Path-Finder said:


> Is this the official results?

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## Path-Finder

Horus said:


> Not official. For that I'd have to reveal the source.


Horus? I do reserve the right to disagree with you? you maybe right but I have a right to this don't I?

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## CHACHA"G"

Path-Finder said:


> Chacha ji we are all into our rifle trials with incredible anticipation. It's the passionate love of SCAR that our Hazrat is displaying. While the rest of us are* driven by fact finding*. That is the difference


Honestly I do love both scar and CZ , but as you said we have to fallow facts and figures , Its not only Rifle its 40 to 50 years of Future of Our Armed Forces and Fire Power .
*That is Y *I said Pakistan will only go with those campiness which provides R&D in Future development (just say like after 25 years) . And some miner faults could be taken care in future .
Its look like we have to wait longer then this year........ But who knows..............

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## Path-Finder

Vergennes said:


> The French special forces literally switched from the SCAR to the 416 and not because of cost issues...... but because it had recurrent defects and some parts were very fragile and easily breakable. The rifle has still some defects that FN still didn't resolve.
> 
> The 416 was tested in every environments possible,mountains,deserts,jungle etc. and it's not for nothing every special forces units are using it and now the regular forces will use it.
> 
> Sorry,but the USSOCOM switching back from the SCAR to the M4 for cost issues seems BS to me. How would Pakistan afford it if the Americans can't ?


Not sure what more one can say Rifle selection is the most important part of a state's defence as that is the tool a soldier will use to further national goals. I am sure France tested it thoroughly. Money grows on trees in Pakistan if Pentagon couldn't afford it

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## Gryphon

@Path-Finder 

The info. regarding performance of each competitor is usually kept secret because it is 'commercially sensitive'. PA will never officially release this information.

There is no way we can verify those claims either. OEM's do spread rumours against their competitors.

Beretta and CZ have been accused of cheating. But, SCAR was the best in trials.

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## Vergennes

Zarvan said:


> Ask USA where they are spending money in Pakistan soldiers family when he is martyred gets pension plots agricultural land and his children free education and free health care in Army hospitals but many of USA retired soldiers die on roads so ask USA where are they spending there money



What has the budget of the USSOCOM to do with the veterans affairs ?

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## Gryphon

Vergennes said:


> The French special forces literally switched from the SCAR to the 416 and not because of cost issues...... but because it had recurrent defects and some parts were very fragile and easily breakable. The rifle has still some defects that FN still didn't resolve.
> 
> The 416 was tested in every environments possible,mountains,deserts,jungle etc. and it's not for nothing every special forces units are using it and now the regular forces will use it.
> 
> Sorry,but the USSOCOM switching back from the SCAR to the M4 for cost issues seems BS to me. How would Pakistan afford it if the Americans can't ?



The day Pakistani trials started, some people started lobbying for SCAR on defence.pk

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## Zarvan

Horus said:


> Not official. For that I'd have to reveal the source.


By the way after seeing the results well I backoff from suggesting that we should try to resolve issues of BREN and Beretta and produce them also but instead it's time we send a delegation to Russia and request putin to convince AK company to give TOT of there AKs and we should test AK-15 and AK-400. If pass test produce them in Pakistan.






AK-15





AK-400

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> By the way after seeing the results well I backoff from suggesting that we should try to resolve issues of BREN and Beretta and produce them also but instead it's time we send a delegation to Russia and request putin to convince AK company to give TOT of there AKs and we should test AK-15 and AK-400. If pass test produce them in Pakistan.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AK-15
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AK-400



"it's time we send a delegation to Russia and request putin to convince AK company to give TOT of there AKs"


Yes Putin is giving ToT's on AK's This is Russia not Soviet Union


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> "it's time we send a delegation to Russia and request putin to convince AK company to give TOT of there AKs"
> 
> 
> Yes Putin is giving ToT's on AK's This is Russia not Soviet Union


Russia has given TOT to several countries before and they still act like same when it comes to there on Governance. We have Police to equip


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Russia has given TOT to several countries before and they still act like same when it comes to there on Governance. We have Police to equip


 Hazrat AK failed our Trial? Only SCAR won so why not wait for x39 SCAR? The difference between these new AK is they have improved recoil characteristics. But they are built from same stamp sheet metal as the AK as per your source failed the Trials!!!


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## Kompromat

I think Army will drop x39 altogether and stick with x51. MP5 can be replaced with 13 inch barrel for x51 SCAR which can be installed in the field within a few minutes to carry out cqb ops. Every standard scar can be switched to any barrel length. 



Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat AK failed our Trial? Only SCAR won so why not wait for x39 SCAR? The difference between these new AK is they have improved recoil characteristics. But they are built from same stamp sheet metal as the AK as per your source failed the Trials!!!

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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> And finally our missing mod return thanks a lot for returning Sir
> 
> @Path-Finder @Arsalan @The Eagle Please free to study the results Sir @Army research @django


Zarvan you dont seem to get the point do you? even though it us plain and simple english.

On one side, it is the number of reports by international militaries, the facts how SCAR was not selected by some after trials and facts how some have shelved it after procurement.
On other hand, we are here in intermet and telling and guessing the results of our trials
THEN, YOU MENTIINED THE SHADY DEALS
So just tell me what one should beleive in? 
That GIGN have actually not selected scar and that is true
or
whatever is told to us in internet and facebook

what will be your logical choice between the two?

I am asking a plain and simple to the point question and expect a straight forward option where you can tell what you will choose from the two options given.


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## Path-Finder

Horus said:


> I think Army will drop x39 altogether and stick with x51. MP5 can be replaced with 13 inch barrel for x51 SCAR which can be installed in the field within a few minutes to carry out cqb ops. Every standard scar can be switched to any barrel length.


Am I being trolled!


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## Gryphon

7.62x39mm is not going anywhere. There is evidence which indicates 7.62x39mm will see increased usage by PA in the future.

Last year, a new plant was opened to manufacture 7.62x39mm ammo.

7.62x51mm FN SCAR CQB variant replacing MP5 is .

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## Path-Finder

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> 7.62x39mm is not going anywhere. There is evidence which indicates 7.62x39mm will see increased usage by PA in the future.
> 
> Last year, a new plant was opened to manufacture 7.62x39mm.
> 
> 7.62x51mm FN SCAR CQB variant replacing MP5 is


I think this thread is a open troll zone do as much trolling as you like . If Horus does it so can we!


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## Areesh

I have started to hate this thread for some reason.


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## Kompromat

POF brass mill is for ammmo export.

CQBs only requirement is 13" barrel not the caliber. The SSG is using an M-4 commando for CQB ops in 5.56mm. SCAR on the other hand is the only rifle in the tender which accepts any barrel length. Technically, a SCAR can be switched from a battle rifle to a CQB rifle or the other way around. POF is already producing a CQB variant of G-3 called G-3M with a 13" barrel, chambered in 7.62x51. Its a battle tested platform and working very well for Paramilitary. Similarly the Army is using x39 for CQB. Only thing you need to do is to better educate yourself. This is a debate platform and if you continue to ridicule members, you'll be locked out.



TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> 7.62x39mm is not going anywhere. There is evidence which indicates 7.62x39mm will see increased usage by PA in the future.
> 
> Last year, a new plant was opened to manufacture 7.62x39mm ammo.
> 
> 7.62x51mm FN SCAR CQB variant replacing MP5 is .



Army has no real choice for x39 so far as both leading contestants have failed. They really wanted the AK-103 but Russians aren't keen on TOT. Both SCAR and ARX x39 platforms aren't ready yet. IMO Army is getting rid of 9mm ammo for CQB hence the MP-5 is going out to Paramilitary and Police. x39 is hanging in the balance. If my assessment is correct, the Army might go for a single caliber. There are indications that the U.S Army might also adopt x51 as a standard caliber. 



Path-Finder said:


> Am I being trolled!

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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> Zarvan you dont seem to get the point do you? even though it us plain and simple english.
> 
> On one side, it is the number of reports by international militaries, the facts how SCAR was not selected by some after trials and facts how some have shelved it after procurement.
> On other hand, we are here in intermet and telling and guessing the results of our trials
> THEN, YOU MENTIINED THE SHADY DEALS
> So just tell me what one should beleive in?
> That GIGN have actually not selected scar and that is true
> or
> whatever is told to us in internet and facebook
> 
> what will be your logical choice between the two?
> 
> I am asking a plain and simple to the point question and expect a straight forward option where you can tell what you will choose from the two options given.


Which country tested the rifle in 54 C temperature well I say no one and SCAR passed so ask those countries what crap they did 
@Horus


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## Path-Finder

Horus said:


> *Only thing you need to do is to better educate yourself. This is* *a debate platform and if you continue to ridicule members, you'll be locked out.*



I too hate this thread now! Happy discussions.


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## Kompromat

This is a discussion not a boxing match. Accusing other members of 'lobbying' for xyz OEM, or ridiculing posts out of own ignorance is uncalled for. State an opinion and let others do the same. 



Path-Finder said:


> I too hate this thread now! Happy discussions.

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## Path-Finder

Horus said:


> This is a discussion not a boxing match. Accusing other members of 'lobbying' for xyz OEM, or ridiculing posts out of own ignorance is uncalled for. State an opinion and let others do the same.


You honor Objection! We do that 'however' can you explain the phenomenon of Zarvan? We for lover nor money can understand him! We all state an opinion BUT there is opinion and there is bias. There is over 270 pages of Bias.

I ask you because he holds you in high esteem.


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## Kompromat

He has equal say as everyone else. Contest him with opinions not ridicule. 



Path-Finder said:


> You honor Objection! We do that 'however' can you explain the phenomenon of Zarvan? We for lover nor money can understand him! We all state an opinion BUT there is opinion and there is bias. There is over 270 pages of Bias.
> 
> I ask you because he holds you in high esteem.



FYI - @balixd @Oscar @Icarus



Horus said:


> *SUMMER TRIALS - SUMMERY
> *
> All rifles were tested in hot environment with 200 rounds for each test, i.e under the direct sunlight conditions, under the shade, mud, sand tests etc
> 
> Water immersion test | No stoppages
> 
> Slush test | there were stoppages on all rifles except none for AK-103 due to its powerful spring, and least stoppages for FN Scar.
> 
> Sand Test | there were stoppages on all rifles except none for AK-103 due to its powerful spring, and least stoppages for FN Scar.
> 
> Mud Test | All had many stoppages, SCAR stopped 4 time, marking the lowest number.
> 
> For Sustained Fire Test | 200 rounds / 10x magazines with immediate reload - Conducted twice.
> 
> FN SCAR H : Passed
> Beretta : Didn't had appropriate number of magazines so each time it was refilled thus not passing the criteria.
> Chinese AK : Passed
> CZ (x51) : More than 15 stoppages after only 2-3 magazines; couldn't finish the test.
> MKEK MPT-76 : 3 stoppages and the magazine was very difficult to remove while the weapon was hot.
> Zastava : 3 stoppages
> G3-A3 : 3 stoppages
> AK-103 : 3 stoppages
> CZ (x39 ) : 10 stoppages and after the test, the weapon was too hot to maintain it correctly.
> 
> At first instance this test was conducted in the open desert where outside temperature was very hot 54 or 55 deg C and the user first exposed all the rifles to outside temperature against sun for an hour or so and then immediately fired 200 shots on all the rifles.
> 
> SCAR passed these number of rounds without any jam and hence cooked off 2 times
> 
> Zastava M-77P also fired 200 shots with one stoppage and cooked off 3 times.
> 
> The Turkish MKEK MPT-76 fired 200 shots with two or three stoppage and cooked off 2 times and its plastic parts started burning as well.
> 
> Betretta didn't have appropriate number of magazines i.e., 10 x 20 rds magazines so their test was ignored with the remark that they don't have sufficient magazines.
> 
> Ceska Zbrojovka CZ-807 couldn't pass 200 rounds and had more than 12 stoppages or so giving them time for their rifle and its chamber to cool down resulting in no cook off later.
> 
> The test was repeated in a shady environment under the trees at a different place where outside temperature was still very hot 53 deg c.
> 
> Ceska Zbrojovka CZ-807 couldn't pass 200 rounds and had more than 10-12 stoppages giving them time for their rifle and its chamber to cool down resulting no cook off.
> 
> Betretta had only 06 magazines for ARX-200 so they refilled 04 magazines quickly which got them time resulting in no cook off.
> 
> SCAR passed 200 rounds without any jam and hence cooked off 2 times.
> 
> Zastava M-77P also fired 200 shots with no stoppage and cooked off 2 times.
> 
> The Turkish MKEK MPT-76 also fired 200 shots with one stoppage and cooked off 1 time and again with its plastic parts smelled like burning.
> 
> So generally the tester regarded all the rifles with cook off in such an environment if they pass 200 shots without any stoppage. Although 200 shots were passed at a different location of summer trials where SCAR did not cook-off.
> 
> Technical trials happened during winter as well as summer on all rifles and the rifles which qualified these two trials went through final test of endurance test where 30,000 rounds were fired from 3 of the each rifle of each OEM meaning 10,000 round per rifle, Only following went to this test and FN SCAR with aimpoint sight qualified. While, Beretta was caught cheating, CZ both types failed and their CZ (x39) was caught red handed while replacing rifle parts in violation of the test rules. MKEK MPT-76 failed and AK-103 failed as their chamber and barrel busted at 5000 rounds.

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## Zarvan

Horus said:


> He has equal say as everyone else. Contest him with opinions not ridicule.
> 
> 
> 
> FYI - @balixd @Oscar @Icarus


Thanks for the support Sir and by the way what happened in winter trials ?


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## Banglar Bir

Salaam brother's we are eagerly waiting for your choice. As you all have a much wider experience on selecting the best weapons. Insaha Allah we could benefit enormously from your experiences

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## Gryphon

Horus said:


> POF brass mill is for ammmo export.



I wrote

*Last year, a new plant was opened to manufacture 7.62x39mm ammo.*

Brass mill was inaugurated recently.

http://www.radio.gov.pk/15-Mar-2016/army-chief-for-further-technological-up-gradation-of-pof

http://quwa.org/2017/02/06/pakistan-ordnance-factories-sees-three-fold-increase-brass-output/



Horus said:


> CQBs only requirement is 13" barrel not the caliber. The SSG is using an M-4 commando for CQB ops in 5.56mm. SCAR on the other hand is the only rifle in the tender which accepts any barrel length. Technically, a SCAR can be switched from a battle rifle to a CQB rifle or the other way around. POF is already producing a CQB variant of G-3 called G-3M with a 13" barrel, chambered in 7.62x51. Its a battle tested platform and working very well for Paramilitary. Similarly the Army is using x39 for CQB.



Regarding CQC rifle, HK MP5 is a 9×19mm SMG. There is a lot of difference (in weight and magazine capacity) between 9x19mm and 7.62x51mm. As I have mentioned before, 20 rounds (vs 30 or more rounds) is always a -ve.

7.62 NATO is more a sniper round. In case of PA, it will never fully take the role of SMG.



Horus said:


> Only thing you need to do is to better educate yourself. This is a debate platform and if you continue to ridicule members, you'll be locked out.



I apologize if your ego was hurt. I have always tried to avoid it from getting personal.
Meanwhile, I continue educating myself.


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## Path-Finder

Horus said:


> He has equal say as everyone else. Contest him with opinions not ridicule.
> FYI - @balixd @Oscar @Icarus





Zarvan said:


> Thanks for the support Sir and by the way what happened in winter trials ?


Surely we *all* have equal right to say/speak without being ridiculed and opinions respected!!

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## Army research

@Horus there is plenty of love for .39 in the armed forces , I'm witness to it. Do you think if whatever is selected , we will also surely adopt it's .39 and for now stick to those heavily modded lovely Chinese type series ?

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## Zarvan

Army research said:


> @Horus there is plenty of love for .39 in the armed forces , I'm witness to it. Do you think if whatever is selected , we will also surely adopt it's .39 and for now stick to those heavily modded lovely Chinese type series ?


If there would have been this big love for x 39 than SSG would have not switched to M4 and got them in such large numbers and M4 is not x 39 but 5.56 X 45 caliber. Even now LCB and many other Pakistan Army soldiers are seen carrying M4



TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> I wrote
> 
> *Last year, a new plant was opened to manufacture 7.62x39mm ammo.*
> 
> Brass mill was inaugurated recently.
> 
> http://www.radio.gov.pk/15-Mar-2016/army-chief-for-further-technological-up-gradation-of-pof
> 
> http://quwa.org/2017/02/06/pakistan-ordnance-factories-sees-three-fold-increase-brass-output/
> 
> 
> 
> Regarding CQC rifle, HK MP5 is a 9×19mm SMG. There is a lot of difference (in weight and magazine capacity) between 9x19mm and 7.62x51mm. As I have mentioned before, 20 rounds (vs 30 or more rounds) is always a -ve.
> 
> 7.62 NATO is more a sniper round. In case of PA, it will never fully take the role of SMG.
> 
> 
> 
> I apologize if your ego was hurt. I have always tried to avoid it from getting personal.
> Meanwhile, I continue educating myself.


@Horus says Pakistan planned to use x 39 Rifle Gun to replace MP5 we were not looking to get 9mm Sub Machine Gun x 39 caliber would have been considered replacement but as we are stuck with x 39 Guns failing and AK not ready to give TOT we may drop it


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## Army research

Zarvan said:


> If there would have been this big love for x 39 than SSG would have not switched to M4 and got them in such large numbers and M4 is not x 39 but 5.56 X 45 caliber. Even now LCB and many other Pakistan Army soldiers are seen carrying M4
> 
> 
> @Horus says Pakistan planned to use x 39 Rifle Gun to replace MP5 we were not looking to get 9mm Sub Machine Gun x 39 caliber would have been considered replacement but as we are stuck with x 39 Guns failing and AK not ready to give TOT we may drop it


Meray bhai, I shouldn't disclose links but I've been to Tarbela SSG base let's say quite a few times over the years , quite a few, and I know their armoury inside out. They have love for the .39 I myself have used both the weapons you have mentioned while offering better control and light weight, the M4 is favoured by Zarrar anti terrorist company, the convention units of SSG prefer .39 for stopping power.

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## Kompromat

9mm round is practically useless in CQC that is why the Army started to use other calibers. Fate of x39 is not sealed. Its my assessment that Army may choose to discontinue it due to the lack of options or defer it for a few years in the future. I have to maintain a cordial atmosphere in this thread so everyone can part-take without being ridiculed or called out to personally. 



TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> I wrote
> 
> *Last year, a new plant was opened to manufacture 7.62x39mm ammo.*
> 
> Brass mill was inaugurated recently.
> 
> http://www.radio.gov.pk/15-Mar-2016/army-chief-for-further-technological-up-gradation-of-pof
> 
> http://quwa.org/2017/02/06/pakistan-ordnance-factories-sees-three-fold-increase-brass-output/
> 
> 
> 
> Regarding CQC rifle, HK MP5 is a 9×19mm SMG. There is a lot of difference (in weight and magazine capacity) between 9x19mm and 7.62x51mm. As I have mentioned before, 20 rounds (vs 30 or more rounds) is always a -ve.
> 
> 7.62 NATO is more a sniper round. In case of PA, it will never fully take the role of SMG.
> 
> 
> 
> I apologize if your ego was hurt. I have always tried to avoid it from getting personal.
> Meanwhile, I continue educating myself.



It might not be that simple. Pakistan chooses weapons which can be used between -50 to +55 degree temperatures due to our needs. The torture tests are different and based on the soil density and other climatic factors. 



BANGLAR BIR said:


> Salaam brother's we are eagerly waiting for your choice. As you all have a much wider experience on selecting the best weapons. Insaha Allah we could benefit enormously from your experiences

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Going on a tangent, any reason why adapting the AR-15 platform wasn't considered? IIRC the AR-15 basically forms the basis of the HK416/417 and MPT-76. Yes, Turkey's take didn't pan out well in the tests (this was confirmed by MKEK as well), but was there no way of grabbing overseas AR-design experts to develop a new rifle built around Pakistan's requirements?

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## Kompromat

Only choice was HK-417 and they are not selling to Pakistan due to the German Govt policies.



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Going on a tangent, any reason why adapting the AR-15 platform wasn't considered? IIRC the AR-15 basically forms the basis of the HK416/417 and MPT-76. Yes, Turkey's take didn't pan out well in the tests (this was confirmed by MKEK as well), but was there no way of grabbing overseas AR-design experts to develop a new rifle built around Pakistan's requirements?

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## Super Falcon

Hope we can get AR 15 for general troops Scar for SSG


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## Zarvan

Horus said:


> Only choice was HK-417 and they are not selling to Pakistan due to the German Govt policies.


In my opinion it's time Pakistan Army starts a joint venture with companies in Muslim world and also Ukraine like Caracal of UAE 
@Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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## Gryphon

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Going on a tangent, any reason why adapting the AR-15 platform wasn't considered? IIRC the AR-15 basically forms the basis of the HK416/417 and MPT-76. Yes, Turkey's take didn't pan out well in the tests (this was confirmed by MKEK as well), but was there no way of grabbing overseas AR-design experts to develop a new rifle built around Pakistan's requirements?



SIG516 should have been trialed.

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## Zarvan

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> SIG516 should have been trialed.


I heard SIG also creates issues in selling weapons to us and they would have never given us TOT


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## pzfz

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> SIG516 should have been trialed.



Like i said, this is not a thorough trial. And anything more than just a few thousand for special forces would be throwing money down the drain. My personal opinion has always been with an AK variant ala Zastava m77. Scar would end up costing more than the economic value of an individual soldier in most 3rd world armies. The rifle that should've trialed (and chosen with no ifs ands or buts) was the Sako RK95. The Finns produce the best AKs and their 762x39 rounds are the best x39 rounds out there in terms of accuracy. The Israelis bought the Finns design/tooling in making the Galil.

Regarding SIG, they also have a multi-caliber rifle in the SIGXI.

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## Zarvan

pzfz said:


> Like i said, this is not a thorough trial. And anything more than just a few thousand for special forces would be throwing money down the drain. My personal opinion has always been with an AK variant ala Zastava m77. Scar would end up costing more than the economic value of an individual soldier in most 3rd world armies. The rifle that should've trialed (and chosen with no ifs ands or buts) was the Sako RK95. The Finns produce the best AKs and their 762x39 rounds are the best x39 rounds out there in terms of accuracy. The Israelis bought the Finns design/tooling in making the Galil.
> 
> Regarding SIG, they also have a multi-caliber rifle in the SIGXI.


Trials almost went for around 2 years and since 2010 Army was studying about Guns and the costs and technology it was full through trials not a one day decision. 20 companies wanted to come we invited 5 which included SCAR so we knew about the cost and no it won't cost that much. SCAR has pretty much won the trials and final talks are taking places and soon annoucement will be made

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## Path-Finder

So x39 will be scrapped and then x51 will be kept Anything that makes SCAR the winner is coming! In a nutshell.

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## pzfz

Horus said:


> POF brass mill is for ammmo export.
> 
> CQBs only requirement is 13" barrel not the caliber. The SSG is using an M-4 commando for CQB ops in 5.56mm. SCAR on the other hand is the only rifle in the tender which accepts any barrel length. Technically, a SCAR can be switched from a battle rifle to a CQB rifle or the other way around. POF is already producing a CQB variant of G-3 called G-3M with a 13" barrel, chambered in 7.62x51. Its a battle tested platform and working very well for Paramilitary. Similarly the Army is using x39 for CQB. Only thing you need to do is to better educate yourself. This is a debate platform and if you continue to ridicule members, you'll be locked out.
> 
> 
> 
> Army has no real choice for x39 so far as both leading contestants have failed. They really wanted the AK-103 but Russians aren't keen on TOT. Both SCAR and ARX x39 platforms aren't ready yet. IMO Army is getting rid of 9mm ammo for CQB hence the MP-5 is going out to Paramilitary and Police. x39 is hanging in the balance. If my assessment is correct, the Army might go for a single caliber. There are indications that the U.S Army might also adopt x51 as a standard caliber.



The x39 isn't going anywhere. Look at the new photos from all theatres that Pakmil operates. Not just counter-terrorism but at the LoC and Siachen. 99% show the soldier carrying a type 56 in 762x39. The only discussion the US Army is having right now is how crappy the 556 round is. If anything they're looking to go for 6.0 or 6.5mm rounds because the 762 NATO is too heavy for being an assault rifle. Only SOCOM is heavily using the 762 nato round.

And that brings me back to your assertion re: CQB in Pakmil: Why would the army look to drop a round that is WAY easier to handle than any barrel length of 762 nato. In fact, a shorter barrel makes the 762 battle rifle even harder to handle.

All this squabbling is indicative of a lack of thought at the upper echelons of Pakmil regarding its future. Fact of the matter is that serious thought should've been put into deciding which caliber round it wants before deciding on the rifle. Even the 5.8 DPZ would've been excellent. I'll continue to shill for a 6 (or 6.5mm) round since they provide better ballistics, armor penetration and velocity compared to the 762 nato with the benefit of being light-weight like the 556.

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## Path-Finder

pzfz said:


> The x39 isn't going anywhere. Look at the new photos from all theatres that Pakmil operates. Not just counter-terrorism but at the LoC and Siachen. 99% show the soldier carrying a type 56 in 762x39. The only discussion the US Army is having right now is how crappy the 556 round is. If anything they're looking to go for 6.0 or 6.5mm rounds because the 762 NATO is too heavy for being an assault rifle. Only SOCOM is heavily using the 762 nato round.
> 
> And that brings me back to your assertion re: CQB in Pakmil: Why would the army look to drop a round that is WAY easier to handle than any barrel length of 762 nato. In fact, a shorter barrel makes the 762 battle rifle even harder to handle.
> 
> All this squabbling is indicative of a lack of thought at the upper echelons of Pakmil regarding its future. Fact of the matter is that serious thought should've been put into deciding which caliber round it wants before deciding on the rifle. Even the 5.8 DPZ would've been excellent. I'll continue to shill for a 6 (or 6.5mm) round since they provide the better ballistics, armor penetration and velocity compared to the 762 nato with the benefit of being light-weight like the 556.



The US studied x39 and developed 300Blackout which is 556 casing with 30 calibre bullet. It is called the offspring of x39 and 556. the characteristics match x39, It is being used by USSOCOM and it could be the round replacing 556.


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## pzfz

Path-Finder said:


> The US studied x39 and developed 300Blackout which is 556 casing with 30 calibre bullet. It is called the offspring of x39 and 556. the characteristics match x39, It is being used by USSOCOM and it could be the round replacing 556.



nope, too expensive and not enough range for wider use in the US military. Only for certain specop situations. USSOCOM uses a lot of calibers like the 6.8 SPC. None of if should be taken as indicative of what they're replacing the 556 with, if they actually are. US military will never go for a round like the 762 nato for service-wide issue since it puts a premium on its soldiers being able to carry more rounds than the 762 nato allows.

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## Path-Finder

pzfz said:


> nope, too expensive and not enough range for wider use in the US military. Only for certain specop situations. USSOCOM uses a lot of calibers like the 6.8 SPC. None of if should be taken as indicative of what they're replacing the 556 with, if they actually are. US military will never go for a round like the 762 nato for service-wide issue since it puts a premium on its soldiers being able to carry more rounds than the 762 nato allows.


 The round the US Military is studying is x39 and 300Blackout is one result of such conclusive study along with 6.8SPC 6.5 Grendel to speak of few. But I am quite optimistic that replacement of 556 will be becoming priority and us sticking with x39 is the best option. US or NATO cannot adopt the enemies cartridge although GIGN has as it fits the bill perfectly.


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## pzfz

Kitten said:


> Modernize the G3? Brazil's IMBEL IA2 modernized the FAL. I don't see why you can't do the same with the G3.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The AG-3F2 was our take on a modernized G3 rifle.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I dunno, but I'm hoping something happens soon with Pakistan's rifle tender so we can stop speculating and put this to rest once and for all.



The FAL is a much more flexible design. The Brazilians also use more of the 556 imbel ia2 variant than the 762 nato one. What the Norgis did (essentially the G3KA4) Pak has also done with the G3M and the G3S. Too heavy and still can't put a front top picatinny rail unless you want to make the G3 even heavier than it already is.

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## Zarvan

Kitten said:


> Modernize the G3? Brazil's IMBEL IA2 modernized the FAL. I don't see why you can't do the same with the G3.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The AG-3F2 was our take on a modernized G3 rifle.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I dunno, but I'm hoping something happens soon with Pakistan's rifle tender so we can stop speculating and put this to rest once and for all.


All upgradations have led to G3 getting more heavy and bigger in size. What we need to do is get SCAR series and produce them in Pakistan and get in collaboration with companies like Caracal of UAE and others and design one of our own Rifle


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## Kompromat

Local G-3 upgrades.

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## Zarvan

Horus said:


> Local G-3 upgrades.
> 
> View attachment 391227
> View attachment 391228
> View attachment 391229


These upgrades are the reason why we need to replace G3. Every upgrade results in increase in weight and even size


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## TheDarkKnight

Horus said:


> Only choice was HK-417 and they are not selling to Pakistan due to the German Govt policies.


Are the scar folks willing to make modifications to fix any issues? Or will tot allow us to make changes ourselves to meet our reqs and fix issues? And lastly how is the overall selection process transparency... any chance of corruption or kicbacks etc ?


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## Path-Finder

TheDarkKnight said:


> Are the scar folks willing to make modifications to fix any issues? Or will tot allow us to make changes ourselves to meet our reqs and fix issues? And lastly how is the overall selection process transparency... any chance of corruption or kicbacks etc ?


There is *no* corruption and issues with the SCAR rifle *it passed all the trials!*


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## Kompromat

Sig-716 7.62x51 pieces are with the Army for trials. 



TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> SIG516 should have been trialed.

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## HannibalBarca

Just passing by... Still no "OFFCIIAL" news on which Pak Army choosed?


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## Zarvan

Horus said:


> Sig-716 7.62x51 pieces are with the Army for trials.


But trials are over aren't they ?????


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## Kompromat

* All rifles included in the tender are the most latest variants including the most latest SCAR. Local production can pave way for in-house upgrades. 

* Early transfer of the POF chief to the rather 'prestigious' post of DG-NDMA might be a strong hint for you in regards to the room for corruption. 



TheDarkKnight said:


> Are the scar folks willing to make modifications to fix any issues? Or will tot allow us to make changes ourselves to meet our reqs and fix issues? And lastly how is the overall selection process transparency... any chance of corruption or kicbacks etc ?



Not yet. No recommendation has been made yet. 



Zarvan said:


> But trials are over aren't they ?????

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## django

Zarvan said:


> If you haven't noticed SSG and even LCB guys have stopped using Type 56 and they are now using M4.


LCB are definetly using kitted out type 56 and they bloody love it,,,SSG also use it though M4 is also in frequent use by them!!!!



Zarvan said:


> And finally our missing mod return thanks a lot for returning Sir
> 
> @Path-Finder @Arsalan @The Eagle Please free to study the results Sir @Army research @django


Are these official results???? If the SCAR has performed the best then it should be selected no ifs or buts about it, our jawans should always come first yet I will still reserve my judgement until something is released officially by ISPR.Kudos Hazrat



Path-Finder said:


> "it's time we send a delegation to Russia and request putin to convince AK company to give TOT of there AKs"
> 
> 
> Yes Putin is giving ToT's on AK's This is Russia not Soviet Union


I believe the Venezuelan govt were given TOT for AK-103



Army research said:


> Meray bhai, I shouldn't disclose links but I've been to Tarbela SSG base let's say quite a few times over the years , quite a few, and I know their armoury inside out. They have love for the .39 I myself have used both the weapons you have mentioned while offering better control and light weight, the M4 is favoured by Zarrar anti terrorist company, the convention units of SSG prefer .39 for stopping power.


This has pretty much been confirmed on different occasions of the "Mahaaz" program.Kudos

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## Zarvan

django said:


> LCB are definetly using kitted out type 56 and they bloody love it,,,SSG also use it though M4 is also in frequent use by them!!!!
> 
> 
> Are these official results???? If the SCAR has performed the best then it should be selected no ifs or buts about it, our jawans should always come first yet I will still reserve my judgement until something is released officially by ISPR.Kudos Hazrat
> 
> 
> I believe the Venezuelan govt were given TOT for AK-103
> 
> 
> This has pretty much been confirmed on different occasions of the "Mahaaz" program.Kudos


M4 has pretty much replaced all Type 56 which were used by SSG. Also many LCB are now seen with M4 and number are increasing


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## django

Zarvan said:


> M4 has pretty much replaced all Type 56 which were used by SSG. Also many LCB are now seen with M4 and number are increasing


We will have to agree to disagree,,,,,LCB and regular jawans love the type 56, you cannot go wrong with it,,,,I once read an interview of a US seal where he stated that they had evaluated many AK variants, Russian, East German, Finnish,,,Romanian an they found the type 56 to be the best version of all.

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## Zarvan

django said:


> We will have to agree to disagree,,,,,LCB and regular jawans love the type 56, you cannot go wrong with it,,,,I once read an interview of a US seal where he stated that they had evaluated many AK variants, Russian, East German, Finnish,,,Romanian an they found the type 56 to be the best version of all.


I see more and more with M4 and if we would have gotten more from USA I am pretty sure more troops would have gone with M4. I always thought that Army never liked the 5.56 X 45 but the way they just got rid of Type 56 the moment they got there hands on M4 shows that is not that big love for 7.62 X 39


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## django

Zarvan said:


> I see more and more with M4 and if we would have gotten more from USA I am pretty sure more troops would have gone with M4. I always thought that Army never liked the 5.56 X 45 but the way they just got rid of Type 56 the moment they got there hands on M4 shows that is not that big love for 7.62 X 39


I only see SSG with M4 PERIOD!.......And ask any Pak jawan they love type 56, even SSG are in awe of it, super reliable and adequate accuracy due to scopes and skill of Pak jawans...... Hazrat do not ever underestimate the skill of our jawans

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## Army research

Zarvan said:


> I see more and more with M4 and if we would have gotten more from USA I am pretty sure more troops would have gone with M4. I always thought that Army never liked the 5.56 X 45 but the way they just got rid of Type 56 the moment they got there hands on M4 shows that is not that big love for 7.62 X 39


How the hell do you know? Every where the army en masse is using type 56. As for SSG Zarrar coy and those in CQB use them however their favourite for CT ops is the type 56 fitted with an aim point, fore grip and laser

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## Army research

Zarvan said:


> I see more and more with M4 and if we would have gotten more from USA I am pretty sure more troops would have gone with M4. I always thought that Army never liked the 5.56 X 45 but the way they just got rid of Type 56 the moment they got there hands on M4 shows that is not that big love for 7.62 X 39


How the hell do you know? Every where the army en masse is using type 56. As for SSG Zarrar coy and those in CQB use them however their favourite for CT ops is the type 56 fitted with an aim point, fore grip and laser 


Zarvan said:


> I see more and more with M4 and if we would have gotten more from USA I am pretty sure more troops would have gone with M4. I always thought that Army never liked the 5.56 X 45 but the way they just got rid of Type 56 the moment they got there hands on M4 shows that is not that big love for 7.62 X 39

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## Kompromat

Type-56 is a cheap stopgap, it becomes way too hot to handle with bare hands after 200-300 round dump.



django said:


> I only see SSG with M4 PERIOD!.......And ask any Pak jawan they love type 56, even SSG are in awe of it, super reliable and adequate accuracy due to scopes and skill of Pak jawans...... Hazrat do not ever underestimate the skill of our jawans

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## django

Horus said:


> Type-56 is a cheap stopgap, it becomes way too hot to handle with bare hands after 200-300 round dump.


Tactical gloves should resolve this issue, they are relatively cheap to procure and a lot of jawans are already using them.Kudos

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## TheDarkKnight

django said:


> Tactical gloves should resolve this issue, they are relatively cheap to procure and a lot of jawans are already using them.Kudos



How much heat can tactical gloves handle ... it may help a bit but dont think that much. And also consider the impact of heated barrel on accuracy.


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## django

TheDarkKnight said:


> How much heat can tactical gloves handle ... it may help a bit but dont think that much. And also consider the impact of heated barrel on accuracy.


Those are genuine concerns you have raised yet in Afghanistan the local Pashai Taliban almost overran a US FOB in Korengal valley because the M4s overheated and jammed due to prolonged use yet the AKs were firing on all cylinders as they say, the yanks had to discard their fancy gear for the good old Ak-47 otherwise they would have ended up in bodybags or as eaglefeed.

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## That Guy

django said:


> Those are genuine concerns you have raised yet in Afghanistan the local Pashai Taliban almost overran a US FOB in Korengal valley because the M4s overheated and jammed due to prolonged use yet the AKs were firing on all cylinders as they say, the yanks had to discard their fancy gear for the good old Ak-47 otherwise they would have ended up in bodybags or as eaglefeed.


Not just Afghanistan, but in Iraq as well, where US troops tended to pick up AK rifles from dead insurgents, just in case their M16/M4 malfunctioned.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Horus said:


> Sig-716 7.62x51 pieces are with the Army for trials.


Did these come relatively recently? How are they doing? Any chance of them re-evaluating the MPT-76 (with MKEK's claimed improvements)?


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## Gryphon

Horus said:


> Sig-716 7.62x51 pieces are with the Army for trials.



There is an 8th OEM also competing. Some rumours say its Chinese.


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> There is an 8th OEM also competing. Some rumours say its Chinese.


If accurate, it might be NORINCO and its NAR-751
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...r-751-modern-assault-battle-automatic-rifles/


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## Kompromat

I don't know about an 8th OEM. 



TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> There is an 8th OEM also competing. Some rumours say its Chinese.


----------



## Gryphon

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> If accurate, it might be NORINCO and its NAR-751
> http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...r-751-modern-assault-battle-automatic-rifles/



Possible. It could even be the CS/LR14 7.62x51mm.

But again, those are rumours.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/05/21/chinese-cslr14-7-62x51mm-automatic-rifle/



Horus said:


> I don't know about an 8th OEM.



This was told by CZ official Martin Šanda to armadninoviny.cz

Rough translation:

_"Czech arms factory has successfully participated in the tender for the rearmament of the Pakistani army rifle CZ 807. Of the original eight candidates meet extremely exacting demands of the Pakistani army, only the last three finalists, including the CZ 807...."_

Source:

http://www.armadninoviny.cz/utocna-puska-cz-bren-2-novy-pristup-nove-mysleni.html
_
_

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## Zarvan

Horus said:


> I don't know about an 8th OEM.


@balixd claimed few months back that some American company was also coming with there Rifle they could be the 8th one


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Zarvan said:


> @balixd claimed few months back that some American company was also coming with there Rifle they could be the 8th one


There are two SIG Sauer companies. One in the U.S. and another in Switzerland. I don't think the U.S. one would compete for the PA tender since it's main focus is the U.S. market. SIG Sauer in Switzerland is likely the one working with Pakistan.

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## CHACHA"G"

I don't know y , but I am having a feeling that talks with CZ may have +ve ending then Sacar , The last one have very bad negotiations record. And cz trying every thing one can...........
And as @Horus said , all the guns are latest models and changing was done and *will be done according to Pakistan's Requirement .*
The bold part is every thing about this trail and selection procedure . Its about 40 to 50 years of Fire power and armament.......................
And until now no conform reports . May the best win and May there is no kb and corruption .

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## Thorough Pro

When the weapon becomes too hot, it will not perform optimally



django said:


> Tactical gloves should resolve this issue, they are relatively cheap to procure and a lot of jawans are already using them.Kudos

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## Zarvan

CHACHA"G" said:


> I don't know y , but I am having a feeling that talks with CZ may have +ve ending then Sacar , The last one have very bad negotiations record. And cz trying every thing one can...........
> And as @Horus said , all the guns are latest models and changing was done and *will be done according to Pakistan's Requirement .*
> The bold part is every thing about this trail and selection procedure . Its about 40 to 50 years of Fire power and armament.......................
> And until now no conform reports . May the best win and May there is no kb and corruption .


CZ is pretty much out of the competition and BREN even if would have would have replaced Type 56 not G3 for G3 SCAR H and Berreta ARX 200


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## CHACHA"G"

Thorough Pro said:


> When the weapon becomes too hot, it will not perform optimally


actually it becomes a bomb you don't know when it will explode in your own hand if you keep using it. |And you can not wait for the weapon to be cool down .



Zarvan said:


> CZ is pretty much out of the competition and BREN even if would have would have replaced Type 56 not G3 for G3 SCAR H and Berreta ARX 200


I do mean both categories , If you say so !!!!!! But as I said I love the both and also AK ....... But my love have nothing to do with needs and requirements and characteristics of Weapons ............

As you all know German defence delegation was in Pakistan few days back .... Is there any chance ," I mean any chance" for HK ?????????????????

Please say yes..............


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## Vergennes

CHACHA"G" said:


> As you all know German defence delegation was in Pakistan few days back .... Is there any chance ," I mean any chance" for HK ?????????????????
> 
> Please say yes..............



HK will only sell for NATO countries and their partners,but the partners must be democratic and corruption free. Otherwise HK will never get the approval from the German parliament.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Vergennes said:


> HK will only sell for NATO countries and their partners,but the partners must be democratic and corruption free. Otherwise HK will never get the approval from the German parliament.


but Pakistan's democratic-or something, and it's free corruption. Free corruption.

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## fitpOsitive

Thats why


Vergennes said:


> HK will never get the approval from the German parliament


 for any country of this world.

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## Path-Finder

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Possible. It could even be the CS/LR14 7.62x51mm.
> 
> But again, those are rumours.
> 
> http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/05/21/chinese-cslr14-7-62x51mm-automatic-rifle/
> 
> 
> 
> This was told by CZ official Martin Šanda to armadninoviny.cz
> 
> Rough translation:
> 
> _"Czech arms factory has successfully participated in the tender for the rearmament of the Pakistani army rifle CZ 807. Of the original eight candidates meet extremely exacting demands of the Pakistani army, only the last three finalists, including the CZ 807...."_
> 
> Source:
> 
> http://www.armadninoviny.cz/utocna-puska-cz-bren-2-novy-pristup-nove-mysleni.html


But CZ _failed_ so the news of it making it to the final has to be _fake_


----------



## Kompromat

Its Sig US participating. Ill try to find out about the 8th OEM.



TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Possible. It could even be the CS/LR14 7.62x51mm.
> 
> But again, those are rumours.
> 
> http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/05/21/chinese-cslr14-7-62x51mm-automatic-rifle/
> 
> 
> 
> This was told by CZ official Martin Šanda to armadninoviny.cz
> 
> Rough translation:
> 
> _"Czech arms factory has successfully participated in the tender for the rearmament of the Pakistani army rifle CZ 807. Of the original eight candidates meet extremely exacting demands of the Pakistani army, only the last three finalists, including the CZ 807...."_
> 
> Source:
> 
> http://www.armadninoviny.cz/utocna-puska-cz-bren-2-novy-pristup-nove-mysleni.html





Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> There are two SIG Sauer companies. One in the U.S. and another in Switzerland. I don't think the U.S. one would compete for the PA tender since it's main focus is the U.S. market. SIG Sauer in Switzerland is likely the one working with Pakistan.





Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> There are two SIG Sauer companies. One in the U.S. and another in Switzerland. I don't think the U.S. one would compete for the PA tender since it's main focus is the U.S. market. SIG Sauer in Switzerland is likely the one working with Pakistan.

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## Zarvan

CHACHA"G" said:


> actually it becomes a bomb you don't know when it will explode in your own hand if you keep using it. |And you can not wait for the weapon to be cool down .
> 
> 
> I do mean both categories , If you say so !!!!!! But as I said I love the both and also AK ....... But my love have nothing to do with needs and requirements and characteristics of Weapons ............
> 
> As you all know German defence delegation was in Pakistan few days back .... Is there any chance ," I mean any chance" for HK ?????????????????
> 
> Please say yes..............



Sadly the answer is no German delegation had nothing to do with HK and HK are not ready to sell there weapons to non NATO countries due to German Government policies


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## Naveed66

I think the 8th one is Barrett rec 7 rifle. It was also seen in IDEAS 2016.


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## Naveed66

What i know is that a about 8 rifles participated in the competition and those are:

Fn scar 
Beretta arx 200 
Cz 807
Ak103 
Zastava m77 
Mpt 76 
Sig 716 
Barrett rec 7 ( not 100% sure )


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## Path-Finder

Naveed66 said:


> I think the 8th one is Barrett rec 7 rifle. It was also seen in IDEAS 2016.


It's Not chambered in x51 or x39

If MPT76 let's say gets another shot at summer trials then the winner may not be expected this year!

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## Vergennes

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> but Pakistan's democratic-or something, and it's free corruption. Free corruption.



Playing on the words or modifying their meaning will not make you get some HKs.

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## Path-Finder

Vergennes said:


> Playing on the words or modifying their meaning will not make you get some HKs.
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 391340


It may be enough to get SCAR!!


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## Zarvan

Naveed66 said:


> What i know is that a about 8 rifles participated in the competition and those are:
> 
> Fn scar
> Beretta arx 200
> Cz 807
> Ak103
> Zastava m77
> Mpt 76
> Sig 716
> Barrett rec 7 ( not 100% sure )


I think you are right because there was a similar shaped Rifle in the picture which I posted few months ago


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## Naveed66

Zarvan said:


> I think you are right because there was a similar shaped Rifle in the picture which I posted few months ago


I saw the list in a turkish website where they talk about firearms and they was showing the same pic you shared few months back . It is confirmed that sig 716 participated in the competition.


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## Vergennes

Path-Finder said:


> It may be enough to get SCAR!!



Anyway,scar,hk etc.... weapons for sissies for war at distance.

If it was up to me we would go back to the era of real men with muskets,bayonets and swords.

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## Zarvan

Naveed66 said:


> I saw the list in a turkish website where they talk about firearms and they was showing the same pic you shared few months back . It is confirmed that sig 716 participated in the competition.







@Horus


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## Kompromat

2nd from the right is SIG-716?

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## Gryphon

Naveed66 said:


> I think the 8th one is Barrett rec 7 rifle. It was also seen in IDEAS 2016.



It does not have 7.62 (Soviet or NATO) variant.


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## Zarvan

Horus said:


> 2nd from the right is SIG-716?
> View attachment 391345








Could be


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## CHACHA"G"

Sir G


Vergennes said:


> Playing on the words or modifying their meaning will not make you get some HKs.
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 391340


 what if 3rd party get involve , l mean for example UK or Italy buy it with TOT and after sell , Then what ? Is it possible and within the law?
And look at that beauty and those eyes............


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## Kompromat

Its a Sig. 



Zarvan said:


> Could be



Its hk's loss. They missed out on a tender for one million rifles and sights. 



Vergennes said:


> Playing on the words or modifying their meaning will not make you get some HKs.
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 391340

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## Zarvan

Horus said:


> Its a Sig.
> 
> 
> 
> Its hk's loss. They missed out on a tender for one million rifles and sights.


Sights I didn't knew that we plan to buy sights from same company from which we are going to buy the Rifle. By the way I think Pakistan should take decision fast now we have spent two years now on this


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## Kompromat

Each OEM was asked to bring sights. The tests were carried out with the sights on. Army wants a complete system, not just a rifle because there's no point having a modern Carbine without an associated sight. They allow the soldier to shoot with both eyes open. FN is offering Aimpoint comp M5, Beretta S&B, CZ with MEOPTA. The sights will also be locally produced. 



Zarvan said:


> Sights I didn't knew that we plan to buy sights from same company from which we are going to buy the Rifle. By the way I think Pakistan should take decision fast now we have spent two years now on this

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## Zarvan

Horus said:


> Each OEM was asked to bring sights. The tests were carried out with the sights on. Army wants a complete system, not just a rifle because there's no point having a modern Carbine without an associated sight. They allow the soldier to shoot with both eyes open. FN is offering Aimpoint comp M5, Beretta S&B, CZ with MEOPTA. The sights will also be locally produced.


In short finally our Military Leadership using brain I like it

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Zarvan said:


> Sights I didn't knew that we plan to buy sights from same company from which we are going to buy the Rifle. By the way I think Pakistan should take decision fast now we have spent two years now on this


There aren't many, if any, rifle makers that make sights too. In all likelihood, the sights will be sourced from a separate manufacturer - e.g. Steiner Optics (Italy), Aimpoint (Sweden), Meopta (Czech Republic), EOTech (USA), etc. ToT for local manufacturing would be a good start, but the great avenue would be to engage our private sector - e.g. Shibli Electronics - as an offset partner. In fact, the purchasing load need not be absorbed by the Army, as long as sufficient demand for the long-term is assured, Shibli and the outside optics company can partner to set up a joint subsidiary in Pakistan, and the Army can buy from that subsidiary.

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## Zarvan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> There aren't many, if any, rifle makers that make sights too. In all likelihood, the sights will be sourced from a separate manufacturer - e.g. Steiner Optics (Italy), Aimpoint (Sweden), Meopta (Czech Republic), EOTech (USA), etc. ToT for local manufacturing would be a good start, but the great avenue would be to engage our private sector - e.g. Shibli Electronics - as an offset partner. In fact, the purchasing load need not be absorbed by the Army, as long as sufficient demand for the long-term is assured, Shibli and the outside optics company can partner to set up a joint subsidiary in Pakistan, and the Army can buy from that subsidiary.


We already have a facility in Rawalpindi as far as I know we just need to expand it and get few optics and night vision with TOT and start there production in that


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## django

Thorough Pro said:


> When the weapon becomes too hot, it will not perform optimally


All assault rifles have this issue yet comparatively speaking the type 56 still performs adequately or else why would SSG operatives love the damn thing.Kudos

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## Path-Finder

@Rafi was the first to point out that complete system including sights UBGL and laser pointer devices are being sought along with the rifle last year.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Zarvan said:


> We already have a facility in Rawalpindi as far as I know we just need to expand it and get few optics and night vision with TOT and start there production in that


You know how you always complaint= about HIT? Linking the private sector through offsets are a way to solve that very problem. 

If the Pakistan Army is saying, "we will buy $25 million in various optics equipment every year for the next 20 years" with an initial order of $50 million, that may incentivize Aimpoint or Meopta to partner with Shibli Electronics (or some other private entity) to set up a new company and factory in Pakistan. 

That new company will service the Pakistan Army's needs _without _having the Army to foot the bill for ToT (which will be the investment from Aimpoint and Shibli). The company will also keep updating its product line (without passing the ToT cost to the Army) and so on. This company would work to fulfill Pakistani orders and engage in exports.

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## Sulman Badshah

Horus said:


> Local G-3 upgrades.
> 
> View attachment 391227
> View attachment 391228
> View attachment 391229


M was deployed in few numbers .. than army dumped it due to unspecified reasons


----------



## Zarvan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> You know how you always complaint= about HIT? Linking the private sector through offsets are a way to solve that very problem.
> 
> If the Pakistan Army is saying, "we will buy $25 million in various optics equipment every year for the next 20 years" with an initial order of $50 million, that may incentivize Aimpoint or Meopta to partner with Shibli Electronics (or some other private entity) to set up a new company and factory in Pakistan.
> 
> That new company will service the Pakistan Army's needs _without _having the Army to foot the bill for ToT (which will be the investment from Aimpoint and Shibli). The company will also keep updating its product line (without passing the ToT cost to the Army) and so on. This company would work to fulfill Pakistani orders and engage in exports.


Yes we need a production facility in Pakistan but establishing entire facility to produce on one Optic is not viable. It should at least produce 4 to 5 different devices.



django said:


> All assault rifles have this issue yet comparatively speaking the type 56 still performs adequately or else why would SSG operatives love the damn thing.Kudos


If SSG are so in love than for past one year they have totally switched to M4.


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## Path-Finder

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> You know how you always complaint= about HIT? Linking the private sector through offsets are a way to solve that very problem.
> 
> If the Pakistan Army is saying, "we will buy $25 million in various optics equipment every year for the next 20 years" with an initial order of $50 million, that may incentivize Aimpoint or Meopta to partner with Shibli Electronics (or some other private entity) to set up a new company and factory in Pakistan.
> 
> That new company will service the Pakistan Army's needs _without _having the Army to foot the bill for ToT (which will be the investment from Aimpoint and Shibli). The company will also keep updating its product line (without passing the ToT cost to the Army) and so on. This company would work to fulfill Pakistani orders and engage in exports.


ToT = Winning


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Zarvan said:


> Yes we need a production facility in Pakistan but establishing entire facility to produce on one Optic is not viable. It should at least produce 4 to 5 different devices.
> 
> 
> If SSG are so in love than for past one year they have totally switched to M4.


Read my earlier post again more carefully, you missed what I was actually stating.


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## django

Zarvan said:


> If SSG are so in love than for past one year they have totally switched to M4.


They have not Hazrat, only Zarrar use it as their standard weapon.

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## Zarvan

django said:


> They have not Hazrat, only Zarrar use it as their standard weapon.


Every SSG is using M4 now even LCB are carrying M4 in operational areas


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## django

Zarvan said:


> Every SSG is using M4 now even LCB are carrying M4 in operational areas


Hazrat you either need to visit an optometrist or visit a psychologist to cure your stubbornness,,,,,, your claims are absurd to say the least, of course they are using type 56.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

django said:


> They have not Hazrat, only Zarrar use it as their standard weapon.


They have.

M4 has become SSG's standard weapon.

Moded Types have been replaced, alot of such gear was transfered to LCBs.

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## django

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> They have.
> 
> M4 has become SSG's standard weapon.
> 
> Moded Types have been replaced, alot of such gear was transfered to LCBs.


From what I have seen both are in use, the number of M4s has certainly seemed to have increased yet their still is a high frequency of type 56 as SSG operatives seem to love it.


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## Path-Finder

django said:


> Hazrat you either need to visit an optometrist or visit a psychologist to cure your stubbornness,,,,,, your claims are absurd to say the least, of course they are using type 56.


|You know stepping away from SSG for a sec, The SSU of Sindh Police who are the SWAT unit in Sindh they always have M4 or AR based rifle.....BUT Type 56 is also used by them!! All based on mission specific something they got from SSG!! To say that Type 56 is completely shelved (like USSOCOM completely ditched SCAR) completely would be wrong.

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## django

Path-Finder said:


> |You know stepping away from SSG for a sec, The SSU of Sindh Police who are the SWAT unit in Sindh they always have M4 or AR based rifle.....BUT Type 56 is also used by them!! All based on mission specific something they got from SSG!! To say that Type 56 is completely shelved (like USSOCOM completely ditched SCAR) completely would be wrong.


Absolutely, it is a weapon you cannot go wrong with and will be seen amongst the ranks of our armed forces for many years to come.Kudos


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## DESERT FIGHTER

django said:


> From what I have seen both are in use, the number of M4s has certainly seemed to have increased yet their still is a high frequency of type 56 as SSG operatives seem to love it.


Im quoting an SSG officer, who was also part of Zarb e Azab, his last mission was shawal.

Ive also yet to see any recent pics of SSG using type series.

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## Inception-06

Sulman Badshah said:


> M was deployed in few numbers .. than army dumped it due to unspecified reasons



really sad !

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## Gryphon

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Did these come relatively recently? How are they doing? Any chance of them re-evaluating the MPT-76 (with MKEK's claimed improvements)?



Three more OEM's (MKEK, possibly SIG Sauer and 1 other) joined the trials after March.

The earlier 5 OEM's had winter trials in February 2016 (in GB). Not sure when & where the other 3 had winter trials but in September 2016, three (out of eight) OEM's were shortlisted. And you know who those three are.

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## Naveed66

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Three more OEM's (MKEK, possibly SIG Sauer and 1 other) joined the trials after March.
> 
> The earlier 5 OEM's had winter trials in February 2016 (in GB). Not sure when & where the other 3 had winter trials but in September 2016, three (out of eight) OEM's were shortlisted. And you know who those three are.


So you mean that 3 rifles (sig. Mpt 76 and one more ) were tested before raheel sharif visit pof in march 2016. While only 5 rifles were shown during raheel sharif visit. Please tell us the other one that are unknown to us. Im sure it will not be chinese.


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## Zarvan

Naveed66 said:


> So you mean that 3 rifles (sig. Mpt 76 and one more ) were tested before raheel sharif visit pof in march 2016. While only 5 rifles were shown during raheel sharif visit. Please tell us the other one that are unknown to us. Im sure it will not be chinese.


They joined later


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## Thunder.Storm

#ModernWeapons The FN 40GL, also known as MK 13 Mod 0 is a single shot manual pump action grenade launcher that fires 40mm grenades. It is an integral part of the SCAR weapon system that has been selected by SOCOM to replace a number of existing systems, including the M203 grenade launcher. The MK 13 Mod 0 can be fitted to either the FN SCAR MK 16 or MK 17 rifles, using separate mountings, or configured as a stand alone launcher.
The MK 13 Mod 0 can fire the same selection of 40 mm grenades as the M203:

M406 High-Explosive round (H-E)
M433 High-Explosive Dual Purpose (HEDP)
M576 Buckshot
M670 Smoke Canopy
M585 White Star Cluster
M651 Tactical CS Grenade

The FN40GL is deemed a third generation grenade launcher, meaning it is multifunctional: it can be used mounted to the rifle or as a standalone system; it is manufactured using a number of materials like aluminum, composites, and polymers; the breech opens to the side for use of longer 40 mm rounds including less-lethal; and it is mounted on the bottom accessory rail instead of requiring specialized mounting hardware. The FN40GL is attached to SCAR rifles on the bottom rail with a trigger adapter and dual locking clamp levers on the launcher, limiting the ability to integrate with other rifles. Barrel length is 240 mm (9.6 in), and is unique in that it is the only system where the barrel can swivel to the left or right for loading, while other breech loading launchers pivot specifically to one side. This enhances its ambidextrousness, making it easy for a left-handed operator to load under fire. The standalone stock assembly has the FN40GL mounted to the bottom rail as with the rifle, but still has 3 o’clock, 6 o’clock, and 9 o’clock rail positions for other accessories. This is mainly during non-lethal uses for other mounted additions like LED lights and laser dazzlers. The trigger is placed lower than normal for operation with the user's middle finger, w,hile keeping their trigger finger free to use the rifle. The double-action trigger is long and heavy to prevent easily and unintentionally firing a round under stress.


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## JK!

Test and adjust. That's what an infantryman does to build up his position before taking a shot.

Have any of the manufacturers that took part in the trial indicated they would look to improve their product based on the findings of the trials to tailor the weapon to suit Pakistani needs?

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## ali_raza

JK! said:


> Test and adjust. That's what an infantryman does to build up his position before taking a shot.
> 
> Have any of the manufacturers that took part in the trial indicated they would look to improve their product based on the findings of the trials to tailor the weapon to suit Pakistani needs?


i guess CZ says that


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## Path-Finder

ali_raza said:


> i guess CZ says that


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## Vergennes

Ok,not probably related to this thread,but still an interesting fact. According to recent datas,Pakistan represented 13% of the Wallonia's region military exports,meaning it was its second most important customer after Saudi Arabia wich represents 37%! Then comes the United States with 12% and the rest of the world with 36%.







Pakistan still remains an important and loyal customer for the region's military companies.

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Horus @Zarvan @Path-Finder @Arsalan @TheOccupiedKashmir

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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> I heard SIG also creates issues in selling weapons to us and they would have never given us TOT


Actually, SIG have a piece there in our trials SIR!
So i am not sure where you got that ToT thing. One of there gun is actually being evaluated by us.



JK! said:


> Test and adjust. That's what an infantryman does to build up his position before taking a shot.
> 
> Have any of the manufacturers that took part in the trial indicated they would look to improve their product based on the findings of the trials to tailor the weapon to suit Pakistani needs?


An improved version of one of the contenders have already been presented and is part of evaluation now, I can confirm this about at least one rifle. A new caliber variant have been presented by one as well and one more is likely to do the same.

Also i have heard (but this part is not confirm as it was at a junior level) that China have thrown in a late option to be considered as well, they played it smart, took all the time, kept following the development and at last moments have pitched something from there side. However please take this with a pinch of salt as the guy confirming this is not even directly involved with guns and works in a different section of POF (involved in those APFSDs and stuff). Also i personally hope that this in not the case as all other front runners CZ BERN and SCAR along with Beretta have excellent export potential, the Chinese option may not be great in that field.



Sulman Badshah said:


> M was deployed in few numbers .. than army dumped it due to unspecified reasons


The decision had not much to do with the performance or lack of it. Type 56 was preferred in CQB that is what we were mostly involved in.

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## That Guy

JK! said:


> Test and adjust. That's what an infantryman does to build up his position before taking a shot.
> 
> Have any of the manufacturers that took part in the trial indicated they would look to improve their product based on the findings of the trials to tailor the weapon to suit Pakistani needs?


CZ has apparently been very open to criticism, and have the most flexible offer. A lot of people are saying, they'll likely to win the type 56 replacement trial, exactly due to their complete cooperation and promise of a ToT.

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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> Actually, SIG have a piece there in our trials SIR!
> So i am not sure where you got that ToT thing. One of there gun is actually being evaluated by us.
> 
> 
> An improved version of one of the contenders have already been presented and is part of evaluation now, I can confirm this about at least one rifle. A new caliber variant have been presented by one as well and one more is likely to do the same.
> 
> Also i have heard (but this part is not confirm as it was at a junior level) that China have thrown in a late option to be considered as well, they played it smart, took all the time, kept following the development and at last moments have pitched something from there side. However please take this with a pinch of salt as the guy confirming this is not even directly involved with guns and works in a different section of POF (involved in those APFSDs and stuff). Also i personally hope that this in not the case as all other front runners CZ BERN and SCAR along with Beretta have excellent export potential, the Chinese option may not be great in that field.
> 
> 
> The decision had not much to do with the performance or lack of it. Type 56 was preferred in CQB that is what we were mostly involved in.



Well a member here said that SIG doesn't agree to sell weapons to us but I hope they do it by the way most reviews which I heard on internet about SIG 716 are not good.


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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> Well a member here said that SIG doesn't agree to sell weapons to us but I hope they do it by the way most reviews which I heard on internet about SIG 716 are not good.


Well if internet reviews are to be believed SCAR would be no where in the picture with multiple user forces reporting problems and MANY rejection in trials all over the world.  I am not saying how good of bad the SIG is but just stating a simple fact.
As for its participations in trials, do not believe all that is said on internet, specially on Facebook. I have nothing new for you on this point. It is the same suggestion as ALWAYS.

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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> Well if internet reviews are to be believed SCAR would be no where in the picture with multiple user forces reporting problems and MANY rejection in trials all over the world.  I am not saying how good of bad the SIG is but just stating a simple fact.
> As for its participations in trials, do not believe all that is said on internet, specially on Facebook. I have nothing new for you on this point. It is the same suggestion as ALWAYS.


Well don't know which views you are studying I am talking about youtube Rifle Channels they all call SCAR one of the best


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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> Well don't know which views you are studying I am talking about youtube Rifle Channels they all call SCAR one of the best


And i am talking about multiple tenders where SCAR was rejected in favor of another participant gun, latest being the GIGN one. There is a whole thread about that and you are very active member there. I am not sure why you still "don't know which views i am studying". This is just ONE of them. Search the internet and you will find MANY. If you need any help from me you can always tell me.

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Well don't know which views you are studying I am talking about youtube Rifle Channels they all call SCAR one of the best


Hazrat are rifle reviews the *B**est and Transparent* source of rifle testing? You claim that Army has tested it the best and here you are relying on online reviewers who are restricted by amount of ammo they can use, the application they will use it for i.e leisurely, competition or hunting. Then there is a factor gun reviewers are receiving huge benefits like promos from gun makers to receive positive reviews in return.

Do you factor that in Hazrat? or SCAR can do no wrong as it ascended from the heavens? Once again you cannot answer in defence for SCAR as to why it has failed tests globally even USSOCOM for whom it was made have shelved it. It was nothing to do with money that much I can confirm!


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## JK!

@Zarvan other members are reporting the CZ bid is open to improved versions. 

As the resident SCAR lobbyist are FN Herstal offering anything similar to meet Pakistani requirements?


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## Path-Finder

JK! said:


> @Zarvan other members are reporting the CZ bid is open to improved versions.
> 
> As the resident SCAR lobbyist are FN Herstal offering anything similar to meet Pakistani requirements?


There are alot of rumours and nothing solid thus far. We know 3 gun maker's are shortlisted with one receiving MoU/LoU CZ. 

 there is no FN lobbying. It's blasphemous.

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## Army research

Zarvan said:


> CZ was a disaster in our trials I was actually supporting that Pakistan should produce at least one Rifle series along with SCAR series in Pakistan but after disaster performance of BREN and Berreta now I am not supporting any of these two. As for what SCAR is offering well they are offering all the versions along with Machine Guns and HandGuns and also offering AimPoint Optics.
> 
> 
> They are pretty much out of competition


Please stop.... respectfully

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> CZ was a disaster in our trials I was actually supporting that Pakistan should produce at least one Rifle series along with SCAR series in Pakistan but after disaster performance of BREN and Berreta now I am not supporting any of these two. As for what SCAR is offering well they are offering all the versions along with Machine Guns and HandGuns and also offering AimPoint Optics.
> 
> 
> They are pretty much out of competition


What a great sales pitch Hazrat!

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## parkour guy

XM8 from H&K is performing better than both Scar and M4 . What about x39 trials addition.
In the autumn of 2007 the XM8 was compared to other firearms in a 'dust test.'[2]The competition was based on two previous tests that were conducted in summer 2006 and summer 2007 before the latest test in the autumn of 2007. In the summer 2007 test, M16 rifles and M4 carbines recorded a total of 307 stoppages. In the Autumn 2007 test, the XM8 recorded only 127 stoppages in 60,000 total rounds while the M4 carbine had 882.[2]The FN SCAR had 226 stoppages and the HK416 had 233. The difference between the XM8, HK416, and FN SCAR was not statistically significant when correcting for the less reliable STANAG magazine.[3] However, the discrepancy of 575 stoppages between the summer and autumn 2007 tests of the M4 had officials looking into possible causes for the change such as different officials, seasons, and inadequate sample pool size but have stated that the conditions of the test were ostensibly the same.


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## That Guy

Zarvan said:


> CZ was a disaster in our trials I was actually supporting that Pakistan should produce at least one Rifle series along with SCAR series in Pakistan but after disaster performance of BREN and Berreta now I am not supporting any of these two. As for what SCAR is offering well they are offering all the versions along with Machine Guns and HandGuns and also offering AimPoint Optics.
> 
> 
> They are pretty much out of competition


Dude, just stop. They didn't sign an LoU/MoU, with a company that's "pretty much out of the competition".

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## Zarvan

That Guy said:


> Dude, just stop. They didn't sign an LoU/MoU, with a company that's "pretty much out of the competition".


MOU and LOU can mean nothing also and yes it failed the tests miserably go check the summer results @Horus posted


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> MOU and LOU can mean nothing also and yes it failed the tests miserably go check the summer results @Horus posted


Show us the summer result Hazrat and not quote Horus. Horus can't reveal his sources either so its still dubious until officially confirmed.


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## Arsalan

JK! said:


> @Zarvan other members are reporting the CZ bid is open to improved versions.
> 
> As the resident SCAR lobbyist are FN Herstal offering anything similar to meet Pakistani requirements?


It is true. In fact CZ also came with x51 at a very late stage and that too was evaluated by Pakistan army. Whether it was part of the main trials or not is not sure but it was evaluated that is confirmed and also it is a fact that no decision have been made yet. Just two guns have been given an initial nod of approval with a third one mentioned as second choice.

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## Path-Finder

I have another Blasphemy from a reputable Reviewer that our Hazrat is familiar with.







https://forum.full30.com/t/cz-807-kills-em-all/186/11

@TheOccupiedKashmir your thoughts on such Blasphemyfrom a renowned gun reviewer!!!

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## Gryphon

Don't forget that "SCAR is the best rifle in trials".

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## django

Path-Finder said:


> I have another Blasphemy from a reputable Reviewer that our Hazrat is familiar with.
> 
> View attachment 392143
> 
> 
> https://forum.full30.com/t/cz-807-kills-em-all/186/11
> 
> @TheOccupiedKashmir your thoughts on such Blasphemyfrom a renowned gun reviewer!!!


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## Path-Finder

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Don't forget that "SCAR is the best rifle in trials".


Can your Eyes make out the rifle here? 





me thinks its in x51?



django said:


>

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## Kompromat

I always find his analysis to be right on the dot, although i must say that there is a huge difference between the tests he does on the rifles as opposed to the ones militaries do. His tests are only meant for informing US civilian market on fire-arms deemed fit for civilian use, in that particular metric most rifles would perform identical. Its only when rifles are subjected to MILSPEC tests under extremely harsh conditions for sustained periods of time at different temperature, climatic conditions etc the differences between rifles start to appear. Army's tests are vastly different and much more complex than this one. 



Path-Finder said:


> I have another Blasphemy from a reputable Reviewer that our Hazrat is familiar with.
> 
> View attachment 392143
> 
> 
> https://forum.full30.com/t/cz-807-kills-em-all/186/11
> 
> @TheOccupiedKashmir your thoughts on such Blasphemyfrom a renowned gun reviewer!!!

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## Path-Finder

Horus said:


> I always find his analysis to be right on the dot, although i must say that there is a huge difference between the tests he does on the rifles as opposed to the ones militaries do. His tests are only meant for informing US civilian market on fire-arms deemed fit for civilian use, in that particular metric most rifles would perform identical. Its only when rifles are subjected to MILSPEC tests under extremely harsh conditions for sustained periods of time at different temperature, climatic conditions etc the differences between rifles start to appear. Army's tests are vastly different and much more complex than this one.


Indeed!


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## ali_raza

Horus said:


> I always find his analysis to be right on the dot, although i must say that there is a huge difference between the tests he does on the rifles as opposed to the ones militaries do. His tests are only meant for informing US civilian market on fire-arms deemed fit for civilian use, in that particular metric most rifles would perform identical. Its only when rifles are subjected to MILSPEC tests under extremely harsh conditions for sustained periods of time at different temperature, climatic conditions etc the differences between rifles start to appear. Army's tests are vastly different and much more complex than this one.


sir what u think until when we can hear about results


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## Kompromat

Hopefully after the budget this year.


ali_raza said:


> sir what u think until when we can hear about results

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## Rafi

CZ have sweetened the pot, the plot thickens.

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## Gryphon

Path-Finder said:


> Can your Eyes make out the rifle here?
> View attachment 392144
> 
> 
> me thinks its in x51?



Probably CZ BREN 2 in 5.56x45mm.


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## Kompromat

Someone's about to get rich? 



Rafi said:


> CZ have sweetened the pot, the plot thickens.


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## Zhukov

AK-15 for 7.62x39 Variant would be the best option for Pakistan both Politically and Technically.
Also a custom Developed Variant for out 7.62x51 Calibre Assault rifle Category. Ak Variants are ruggest fail proof easy to maintain and cost effective to produce

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## Arsalan

ahmadnawaz22 said:


> AK-15 for 7.62x39 Variant would be the best option for Pakistan both Politically and Technically.
> Also a custom Developed Variant for out 7.62x51 Calibre Assault rifle Category. Ak Variants are ruggest fail proof easy to maintain and cost effective to produce


We are looking for complete ToT and authority to export them as well. In short, we are going for the all rights to the gun. This is something that Russians are not willing to offer so AK is unlikely to come. In fact, they are not there in on going business negotiations.


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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> We are looking for complete ToT and authority to export them as well. In short, we are going for the all rights to the gun. This is something that Russians are not willing to offer so AK is unlikely to come. In fact, they are not there in on going business negotiations.


Even if we get a Rifle series with TOT it's time we get into joint venture with companies like Caracal and develop one Rifle series on our own also.

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## Muhammad Omar

Zarvan said:


> Even if we get a Rifle series with TOT it's time we get into joint venture with companies like Caracal and develop one Rifle series on our own also.



Everything should be Made in Pakistan

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## JK!

@Zarvan when you say SCAR is being offered with variants like DMR is a support weapon like an LMG included?


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## Zarvan

JK! said:


> @Zarvan when you say SCAR is being offered with variants like DMR is a support weapon like an LMG included?


Yup SCAR Sniper versions are also being offered and we are already looking for MG3 replacement for which FN MINIMI is best rifle not to forget we are also looking for new standard handgun 

@Horus can explain further

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## JK!

Zarvan said:


> Yup SCAR Sniper versions are also being offered and we are already looking for MG3 replacement for which FN MINIMI is best rifle not to forget we are also looking for new standard handgun
> 
> @Horus can explain further



Only used 5.56 version of minimi myself but Pakistan may get lucky with this one:

http://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2011/06/mod-orders-7-62mm-minimi/

Does anyone know if the other competitors/manufacturers have support weapons on offer in their deal?

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## That Guy

Zarvan said:


> MOU and LOU can mean nothing also and yes it failed the tests miserably go check the summer results @Horus posted


If that means nothing, do you know what means less than nothing? Not signing a LoU/MoU at all, which is true for FN.

No offense to @Horus , I trust him, but his sources have been wrong in the past.

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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> Even if we get a Rifle series with TOT it's time we get into joint venture with companies like Caracal and develop one Rifle series on our own also.


As i have repeatedly said, there are people, people who matter, who still love that idea of a home GROWN gun. The guns being evaluated will come in blocks and lots and the continuation of induction depends upon how well the first lots perform. This will surely wont be announced and the news will be like "rifle replacement for whole army" bit if Godforbade something goes wrong with first blocks, it might all be rolled back. Now this lot wise induction will give enough opportunitu to learn your lessons and develop something for your own need.

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## Naveed66

Anyone have pics of pakistani soldier testing SIG 716 during trials. Because i cant find anything related to sig 716 in pakistan .

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## Zarvan

Naveed66 said:


> Anyone have pics of pakistani soldier testing SIG 716 during trials. Because i cant find anything related to sig 716 in pakistan .


The picture I posted it only showed it on table with other rifles but don't have picture of soldier carrying it

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## Arsalan

This years budget is likely to have a line or two where the new gun procurement is mentioned. The announcement regarding "which gun" may come later on from military side.

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## Path-Finder

Arsalan said:


> This years budget is likely to have a line or two where the new gun procurement is mentioned. The announcement regarding "which gun" may come later on from military side.


the budget is in June?

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## Muhammad Omar

Path-Finder said:


> the budget is in June?



Obviously

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## Arsalan

Path-Finder said:


> the budget is in June?


Yes!

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## Icarus

Zarvan said:


> new standard handgun



POF started joint production of Sarsilmaz ST-9 and B-6 Handguns at their facility around 4 years ago and these are being sold at very attractive prices. Many are being presented to incoming YOs by their units or senior officers and there is talk of standardizing the practice of presenting side arms to passing out cadets which may just make Sarsilmaz the standard in PA. Aside from this, I am not aware of any approach towards adopting new service pistols. Though I am out of the loop on this and could be wrong. 

ST-9






B-6





As far as the question of Beretta and FN Scar goes. The winner will solely be decided on whoever proposes the most attractive terms for TOT and JD, which at the moment seems to be Beretta but once again, I would reiterate that this is tentative and there has been no agreement on the matter as yet.

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## Zarvan

Icarus said:


> POF started joint production of Sarsilmaz ST-9 and B-6 Handguns at their facility around 4 years ago and these are being sold at very attractive prices. Many are being presented to incoming YOs by their units or senior officers and there is talk of standardizing the practice of presenting side arms to passing out cadets which may just make Sarsilmaz the standard in PA. Aside from this, I am not aware of any approach towards adopting new service pistols. Though I am out of the loop on this and could be wrong.
> 
> ST-9
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> B-6
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As far as the question of Beretta and FN Scar goes. The winner will solely be decided on whoever proposes the most attractive terms for TOT and JD, which at the moment seems to be Beretta but once again, I would reiterate that this is tentative and there has been no agreement on the matter as yet.



Well @Horus is suggesting that SCAR is leading and as for handguns it's again @Horus who is pointing that Pakistan is looking for new handguns and yes main goal is to issue standard side arm.


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Well @Horus is suggesting that SCAR is leading and as for handguns it's again @Horus who is pointing that Pakistan is looking for new handguns and yes main goal is to issue standard side arm.


Hazrat I along with other members together said this over a year ago. it will all come down to the package deal. who offers the most bang for buck!! That is now becoming clearer and even Horus has said this few pages back.

SCAR is the best rifle in trials ain't gonna cut it unfortunately as the bigger picture is overall package. Whichever shortlisted manufacturer offers the best offer is the winner. 

Now i know you will post that FN is offering so and so but it appears that others are offering a better deal.


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## Arsalan

Icarus said:


> POF started joint production of Sarsilmaz ST-9 and B-6 Handguns at their facility around 4 years ago and these are being sold at very attractive prices. Many are being presented to incoming YOs by their units or senior officers and there is talk of standardizing the practice of presenting side arms to passing out cadets which may just make Sarsilmaz the standard in PA. Aside from this, I am not aware of any approach towards adopting new service pistols. Though I am out of the loop on this and could be wrong.
> 
> ST-9
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> B-6
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As far as the question of Beretta and FN Scar goes. The winner will solely be decided on whoever proposes the most attractive terms for TOT and JD, which at the moment seems to be Beretta but once again, I would reiterate that this is tentative and there has been no agreement on the matter as yet.


Hey, nice to have you back (of sorts  )
How is life treating you these days? Busy busy?


Since you are here, i might take this opportunity to ask you something for myself. ST-9 and B-6, how would you rate then? I am looking to buy myself a handgun and will like to have one made by POF (buy Pakistani). If these are good enough i might just go for this.

Also, THANKS A LOT for confirming this once more:


> The winner will solely be decided on whoever proposes the most attractive terms for TOT and JD


No matter what gun is selected, i have been literally crying about this one point for YEAR now. The trials were to select and shortlist the weapons that meet our requirement. It was not a race like competition. Guns are to be evaluated and all which meet the set standards are deemed fit. These selected options will be recommended to the procurement branch and after that it is purely business, preferences will be purely business wise. 
The manufacturer offer the most lucrative deal will be selected. It may come in shape of ToT, JD, Export authority, parts supplier, accessories, other support equipment and other weapon system etc etc. 
*It is quite simple but despite being mentioned over and over again a few of our members are not listening to this. May be they will listen to you. *

Stay safe and have a great day. Again, good to hear from you after so long.

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## Icarus

Arsalan said:


> Hey, nice to have you back (of sorts  )
> How is life treating you these days? Busy busy?



Yaar I'm still here on and off. Things are going well alhamdulilah. Busy as ever but just wanted some time to vent out and refresh myself so I started visiting the forum again. Still not quite as active as I used to be though. 



Arsalan said:


> Since you are here, i might take this opportunity to ask you something for myself. ST-9 and B-6, how would you rate then? I am looking to buy myself a handgun and will like to have one made by POF (buy Pakistani). If these are good enough i might just go for this.



Yaar the ST-9 is a beautiful weapon, but its challenging to manage in the field since it has an internal firing mechanism much like the Glock. So if you're not going to be carrying it through a lot of sand/grime/dirt in a life and death situation, it should serve you dutifully. I'm not saying its bad in field, I'm just saying I have a trust issue with it. I know people who have had it save their lives multiple times and they will swear by it. 

The B-6 is a lot more simpler in design. Its heavily influenced by the CZ-75. Its simple, effective and gets the job done well. I also trust it more seeing as its hammer is exposed. That being said however, I tried shooting a friend's and it didn't feel right. It was deadly accurate but it just made my hand uncomfortable. It wasn't functioning as an extension of my body as a pistol should.

I would suggest you get the ST-9. Its lighter, more compact, globally acclaimed and modern. 

Personally, I use the Taurus PT-92. Its a match made in heaven for me. 



Arsalan said:


> The manufacturer offer the most lucrative deal will be selected. It may come in shape of ToT, JD, Export authority, parts supplier, accessories, other support equipment and other weapon system etc etc.



Old military maxims say never trust your service weapon blindly, it was made by the lowest bidder.

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## Arsalan

Icarus said:


> Yaar I'm still here on and off. Things are going well alhamdulilah. Busy as ever but just wanted some time to vent out and refresh myself so I started visiting the forum again. Still not quite as active as I used to be though.


Great to know. Also i fully understand how spending some time on forum and other similar activities can be of great value for peace of mind and relaxing. It is an excellent place the admins got for us here. 



> Yaar the ST-9 is a beautiful weapon, but its challenging to manage in the field since it has an internal firing mechanism much like the Glock. So if you're not going to be carrying it through a lot of sand/grime/dirt in a life and death situation, it should serve you dutifully. I'm not saying its bad in field, I'm just saying I have a trust issue with it. I know people who have had it save their lives multiple times and they will swear by it.
> 
> The B-6 is a lot more simpler in design. Its heavily influenced by the CZ-75. Its simple, effective and gets the job done well. I also trust it more seeing as its hammer is exposed. That being said however, I tried shooting a friend's and it didn't feel right. It was deadly accurate but it just made my hand uncomfortable. It wasn't functioning as an extension of my body as a pistol should.
> 
> I would suggest you get the ST-9. Its lighter, more compact, globally acclaimed and modern.
> 
> Personally, I use the Taurus PT-92. Its a match made in heaven for me.


Perfect. You explained it all nicely, thanks for taking out the time. 
Well my gun wont be facing the harsh conditions of field anyway so ST-9 as you suggested makes sense. Plus since you mentioned that "not feel good in my hand" i will look at it from this point of view as well and will get a feel of weapon before finally buying one. Will look into PT-92 as well. Taurus is great, have a pump action from them and it is great. Fired there hand gun too but don't really know what model it was  Plus PT92 is essentially pretty much same as Beretta 92 which is pretty much same as the M9 (side arm of US Army) so it must be good!  



> Old military maxims say never trust your service weapon blindly, it was made by the lowest bidder.



So true!!

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## Icarus

Arsalan said:


> Great to know. Also i fully understand how spending some time on forum and other similar activities can be of great value for peace of mind and relaxing. It is an excellent place the admins got for us here.
> 
> 
> Perfect. You explained it all nicely, thanks for taking out the time.
> Well my gun wont be facing the harsh conditions of field anyway so ST-9 as you suggested makes sense. Plus since you mentioned that "not feel good in my hand" i will look at it from this point of view as well and will get a feel of weapon before finally buying one. Will look into PT-92 as well. Taurus is great, have a pump action from them and it is great. Fired there hand gun too but don't really know what model it was  Plus PT92 is essentially pretty much same as Beretta 92 which is pretty much same as the M9 (side arm of US Army) so it must be good!
> 
> 
> 
> So true!!




No harm in giving the PT-92 a look too. Its a great sidearm but its a little heavy and clunky. These newer models are a lot more sleek. Performance wise, I'm still a bit of fan of nostalgia. PT-92 and Browning Hi-Power have served me well.

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## Zarvan

Icarus said:


> No harm in giving the PT-92 a look too. Its a great sidearm but its a little heavy and clunky. These newer models are a lot more sleek. Performance wise, I'm still a bit of fan of nostalgia. PT-92 and Browning Hi-Power have served me well.


Sir I think we are looking for striker fire hand guns one of them I think these are part of trials 





Berreta APX 




Canik TP9


----------



## Arsalan

Icarus said:


> No harm in giving the PT-92 a look too. Its a great sidearm but its a little heavy and clunky. These newer models are a lot more sleek. Performance wise, I'm still a bit of fan of nostalgia. PT-92 and Browning Hi-Power have served me well.


I will surely look at it. One thing that it lacks for me is under rail for laser/torch light. For an unprofessional like me, i will like to get all the aid i can to shoot more accurately. (besides, it looks fancy ). There are some add-on rail thing that can be bough but not sure if it will be available here in Pak.

Anyway i will look at these options and will sure feel them for myself now and decide then. Will share with you once done.

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## Hell hound

Zarvan said:


> Well as for handguns it's again [USER=15719]@Horus who is pointing that Pakistan is looking for new handguns and yes main goal is to issue standard side arm.[/USER]



how about FN five seven @Zarvan
[IMG]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/65/FN5707.jpg/1024px-FN5707.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]https://www.championfirearms.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/Champion%20Firearms_FN%20FiveseveN.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/a5/5e/dc/a55edcdf5161e5980490c328465e9f9a.jpg[/IMG]

sorry guys had to do it pls don't kill me   @Path-Finder @django @Arsalan



Icarus said:


> Personally, I use the Taurus PT-92. Its a match made in heaven for me.


i know its an odd caliber but what are your views on five seven handgun.

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## Zarvan

Hell hound said:


> how about FN five seven @Zarvan
> [IMG]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/65/FN5707.jpg/1024px-FN5707.jpg[/IMG]
> [IMG]https://www.championfirearms.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/Champion%20Firearms_FN%20FiveseveN.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/a5/5e/dc/a55edcdf5161e5980490c328465e9f9a.jpg[/IMG]
> 
> sorry guys had to do it pls don't kill me  @Path-Finder @django @Arsalan
> 
> 
> i know its an odd caliber but what are your views on five seven handgun.


It's not nine MM and if big Guns other than APX of Berreta are participating than it would be competition between GLOCK and FN 509 and SIG 320 @Horus


----------



## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> It's not nine MM and if big Guns other than APX of Berreta are participating than it would be competition between GLOCK and FN 509 and SIG 320 @Horus


Hazrat what about CZ pistols? Or you are CZ phobic?

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## Hell hound

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat what about CZ pistols? Or you are CZ phobic?


 na bro FN is the best pistol manufacturer too


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat what about CZ pistols? Or you are CZ phobic?


Yes there CZ 10 PC would be here and also I think CANIK would here also



Hell hound said:


> na bro FN is the best pistol manufacturer too


Among handguns I think GLOCK will beat FN but this FN 509 the new Gun many change things but SIG 320 is also dam good so it would be seriously tough game for every one to win





GLOCK 




FN-509 




Berreta 




CZ P-10 C 




CANIK TP9 SF Elite

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## Thunder.Storm

Hell hound said:


> how about FN five seven @Zarvan
> [IMG]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/65/FN5707.jpg/1024px-FN5707.jpg[/IMG]
> [IMG]https://www.championfirearms.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/Champion%20Firearms_FN%20FiveseveN.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/a5/5e/dc/a55edcdf5161e5980490c328465e9f9a.jpg[/IMG]
> 
> sorry guys had to do it pls don't kill me   @Path-Finder @django @Arsalan
> 
> 
> i know its an odd caliber but what are your views on five seven handgun.


Actually Air Force special services wing was interested in this gun.


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## Zarvan

Thunder.Storm said:


> Actually Air Force special services wing was interested in this gun.


SSW gets what they want to they don't depend on Army if they wanted this they would be using this I am more than sure


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## Hell hound

Thunder.Storm said:


> Actually Air Force special services wing was interested in this gun.


I think they operate p90 too(not sure about it) this might be the reason for both guns can use same ammo.btw 5 7 has very good ammo capacity


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Yes there CZ 10 PC would be here and also I think CANIK would here also
> 
> 
> Among handguns I think GLOCK will beat FN but this FN 509 the new Gun many change things but SIG 320 is also dam good so it would be seriously tough game for every one to win
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GLOCK
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FN-509
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Berreta
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CZ P-10 C
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CANIK TP9 SF Elite



Hazrat not to disappoint you but there is a huge wide playing field and after 30 years of domination by Glock. They are now on the back foot because of newer Striker fired guns that are offering better performance than Glock. Heck Glock is in a lawsuit in US








Hell hound said:


> na bro FN is the best pistol manufacturer too


yes all praises to FN

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## Arsalan

Hell hound said:


> how about FN five seven @Zarvan
> [IMG]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/65/FN5707.jpg/1024px-FN5707.jpg[/IMG]
> [IMG]https://www.championfirearms.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/Champion%20Firearms_FN%20FiveseveN.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/a5/5e/dc/a55edcdf5161e5980490c328465e9f9a.jpg[/IMG]
> 
> sorry guys had to do it pls don't kill me   @Path-Finder @django @Arsalan
> 
> 
> i know its an odd caliber but what are your views on five seven handgun.


Not sure if it is suitable for us because of it 5.7mm bullet size. Not really a standard with PA

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## Thunder.Storm

Zarvan said:


> SSW gets what they want to they don't depend on Army if they wanted this they would be using this I am more than sure





Hell hound said:


> I think they operate p90 too(not sure about it) this might be the reason for both guns can use same ammo.btw 5 7 has very good ammo capacity


Some Buddy told me that fn 57 can penetrate bulletproof jacket. i don't know about the specs of the jacket but i heard allot from Paf persons about this fn 57.

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## Hell hound

Thunder.Storm said:


> Some Buddy told me that fn 57 can penetrate bulletproof jacket. i don't about the full specs about the jacket but i heard allot from Paf persons about this fn 57.


From what I have heard civilian blue tip bullets can't even penetrate wooden walls of American houses and are designed that way.but the army issued red tip can pierce bulletproof vest with little to no difficulty.

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## pzfz

Thunder.Storm said:


> Some Buddy told me that fn 57 can penetrate bulletproof jacket. i don't about the full specs about the jacket but i heard allot from Paf persons about this fn 57.



depends on the "bulletproof" armor protection level. the best bullet for penetration is the ruskie 5.45x39. it's shape and velocity tends to slice thru objects better AND create ghastlier wounds once it hits soft tissue. fatter bullets (762x39 and the 762x51) create more friction as they go through an object and not tend to go through, but have greater "knock down" capability.

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## Icarus

Hell hound said:


> i know its an odd caliber but what are your views on five seven handgun



I think its a rich man's luxury. 9mm round will kill just as well for a 10th of the price.

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## El Fuego

I dont think FN would sell you ammo for 5.7. I spoke with some of your special forces year or two ago. And I remember they were coplaining about this. They had P 90 in the inventory but FN refused to sell ammo to Pakistan. Maybe they have changed their policy now but anyway how you can trust FN with ToT if they refuse to sell ammo to already purchased weapons? Do you guys prefer striker fire or SA/DA pistols?

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## Path-Finder

Well now this is interesting! We don't see P90 as often as we did like in the 00's.

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## Hell hound

Path-Finder said:


> Well now this is interesting! We don't see P90 as often as we did like in the 00's.


Stop now you are about to commit blasphemy against FN


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## Rahil khan

Arsalan said:


> Yes!


I have heard that budget is coming before June due to Ramadan. Possibly in last days of May.

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## Path-Finder

Hell hound said:


> Stop now you are about to commit blasphemy against FN


My signature says it all

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## Arsalan

Rahil khan said:


> I have heard that budget is coming before June due to Ramadan. Possibly in last days of May.


hein!!!

Not aware of any such development. Will check

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## Arsalan

Kya baat ha bara sukoon ha CZ aur SCAR walo!!

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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> Kya baat ha bara sukoon ha CZ aur SCAR walo!!


Well all are waiting for final announcement hope @Horus comes up with the news soon and by the where is our member @balixd


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## mikaal hassan

there is an article in wall street journal about German arms industry might be a case of Germany relaxing arms export.may be we can wait a bit longer and ask the Germans if they want to participate in our Gun trials .
i cant read the full article as you have to sign up .


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## Kompromat

Five Seven was specifically designed to penetrate body armor.



Icarus said:


> I think its a rich man's luxury. 9mm round will kill just as well for a 10th of the price.



That is not true. P90 is only in service with SSW and they never had an issue with ammo!



El Fuego said:


> I dont think FN would sell you ammo for 5.7. I spoke with some of your special forces year or two ago. And I remember they were coplaining about this. They had P 90 in the inventory but FN refused to sell ammo to Pakistan. Maybe they have changed their policy now but anyway how you can trust FN with ToT if they refuse to sell ammo to already purchased weapons? Do you guys prefer striker fire or SA/DA pistols?

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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> Well all are waiting for final announcement hope @Horus comes up with the news soon and by the where is our member @balixd


Hmmm means business as usual!!

Balixd i guess got fed up with what we are doing last over 4000 posts now and keft the thread. Not too active on the forumn these days either. Hope he joins us back soon. 



Horus said:


> Five Seven was specifically designed to penetrate body armor.
> 
> 
> 
> That is not true. P90 is only in service with SSW and they never had an issue with ammo!


We dont make that ammo at POF right?


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## Kompromat

No. FiveSeven is not widely used by Pak.



Arsalan said:


> Hmmm means business as usual!!
> 
> Balixd i guess got fed up with what we are doing last over 4000 posts now and keft the thread. Not too active on the forumn these days either. Hope he joins us back soon.
> 
> 
> We dont make that ammo at POF right?

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## Path-Finder

Arsalan said:


> Kya baat ha bara sukoon ha CZ aur SCAR walo!!


You are bored and wanting drama.

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## Hell hound

Path-Finder said:


> You are bored and wanting drama.


me too


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## El Fuego

Horus said:


> Five Seven was specifically designed to penetrate body armor.
> 
> 
> 
> That is not true. P90 is only in service with SSW and they never had an issue with ammo!


Well I am just saying what your operators told me. Maybe they are wrong but one can ask question why would someone speak about this if it is not true? There is no point in such a story. But some problems SF operators are facing in real life do not leak easily. That is maybe why you don't know unless you are part of such a unit.

@Horus tell me which pistol you are carrying every day and I will tell you which branch you are..no offense anyway just friendly asking

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## Kompromat

Only SSW of the Air Force is running FiveSevens both pistols and P9s. These guys are very well funded. They are the first to order SCARs to replace FN-2000s.



El Fuego said:


> Well I am just saying what your operators told me. Maybe they are wrong but one can ask question why would someone speak about this if it is not true? There is no point in such a story. But some problems SF operators are facing in real life do not leak easily. That is maybe why you don't know unless you are part of such a unit.
> 
> @Horus tell me which pistol you are carrying every day and I will tell you which branch you are..no offense anyway just friendly asking

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## Vazir

Horus said:


> Only SSW of the Air Force is running FiveSevens both pistols and P9s. These guys are very well funded. They are the first to order SCARs to replace FN-2000s.


That's logical, considering that they're the guys we'll need if we need to disable an air defense system or extract troops from hot areas. Aur Force SOFs form the backbone of modern warfare.

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## El Fuego

Horus said:


> Only SSW of the Air Force is running FiveSevens both pistols and P9s. These guys are very well funded. They are the first to order SCARs to replace FN-2000s.


Sure they are very well funded. But my point was that it was these guys who told me about unavailability of 5.7 ammo in Pakistan due to FN refusing to sell this ammo.


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## Kompromat

Never heard of such a problem. They usually buy ammo in bulk.



El Fuego said:


> Sure they are very well funded. But my point was that it was these guys who told me about unavailability of 5.7 ammo in Pakistan due to FN refusing to sell this ammo.

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## Zarvan




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## Icarus

Horus said:


> That is not true. P90 is only in service with SSW and they never had an issue with ammo!



Its only used for VIP escort duties, its not an operational field weapon for them either.

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## Arsalan

Horus said:


> No. FiveSeven is not widely used by Pak.


Yeah i thought so as they bought a big lot back in the day and that was mentioned in a light mood conversation by someone. Anyway, i think we better move away from this. The least we should do is standardizing ammo. Importing ammo for rifles do not makes much sense, specially when other options are available. No need to put that extra burden on Forex reserves.

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## ali_raza

Zarvan said:


>


hazrat sahb u posting beretta qayamat ki nishani

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## Zarvan

ali_raza said:


> hazrat sahb u posting beretta qayamat ki nishani


I think you haven't watched the video most of such videos done for USA market suggest that Berreta has serious accuracy issues and we faced same issues in Pakistan @Horus

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## Army research

Zarvan said:


> I think you haven't watched the video most of such videos done for USA market suggest that Berreta has serious accuracy issues and we faced same issues in Pakistan @Horus


Please man stop, if scar does come then wohoo, you don't have to fight every one for it damn it I feel pity for you

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## Path-Finder

Army research said:


> Please man stop, if scar does come then wohoo, you don't have to fight every one for it damn it I feel pity for you


am i the only one surely not, Super Duper SCAR is being offered to Pakistan after not cutting the graft in so many militaries. Other than Belgium. Pakistan is possibly looking to adopt it is very worrisome. It just dosent seem to resonate the Legendary FN FAL which has to be keeping FN up at night worrying.


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> am i the only one surely not, Super Duper SCAR is being offered to Pakistan after not cutting the graft in so many militaries. Other than Belgium. Pakistan is possibly looking to adopt it is very worrisome. It just dosent seem to resonate the Legendary FN FAL which has to be keeping FN up at night worrying.


Pakistan will adopt it because it has passed all the tests.


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Pakistan will adopt it because it has passed all the tests.


Ok Hazrat if you say so.  SCAR can do no wrong.

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## Rafi

Path-Finder said:


> Ok Hazrat if you say so.  SCAR can do no wrong.



Hazrat is talking BS, scars chances are declining fast.

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## Zarvan

Rafi said:


> Hazrat is talking BS, scars chances are declining fast.


SCAR chances are massive It's CZ and Berreta who are in trouble.
@Horus


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Are there bids for light machine guns and anti-materiel rifles?


----------



## Zarvan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Are there bids for light machine guns and anti-materiel rifles?


Machine Guns and HandGuns yes but no idea about Anti Material Rifles although I hope we go for at least one with TOT. But should be compact size not like the Azerbijani one. 

@Horus


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## Kompromat

MG tender coming up after the rifle tender is signed around August - Sep this year. 



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Are there bids for light machine guns and anti-materiel rifles?

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## Zarvan

Horus said:


> MG tender coming up after the rifle tender is signed around August - Sep this year.


So what is the latest on which rifle is leading and what about HandGun trials will it also come after Rifle trials or tests are already taking place ????????


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## Path-Finder

Horus said:


> MG tender coming up after the rifle tender is signed around August - Sep this year.


It's obvious that M240 will be chosen there is no other GPMG available and it's already in use but small numbers.


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> It's obvious that M240 will be chosen there is no other GPMG available and it's already in use but small numbers.


M240 L and FN Minimi 7.62 X 51


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> M240 L and FN Minimi 7.62 X 51


 Anything FN is welcome Hazrat. For regulars its will be standard M240 the L is for SpecOps and minimi in x51? why do you need two MG's?

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Anything FN is welcome Hazrat. For regulars its will be standard M240 the L is for SpecOps and minimi in x51? why do you need two MG's?


I think it would be Minimi both 7.62 X 51 and 5.56 X 45 versions not M240


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> I think it would be Minimi both 7.62 X 51 and 5.56 X 45 versions not M240


 556 is only in use by SpecOps units and they buy as needed! M240 will be a better choice its a workhorse for heavy duty use minimi has had issues.


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## JPMM

Dont Forget HK MG5 7,62x51. The MG5 can use some of the componentes of the MG3 allready built in POF like the tripod. We are allready using MG5 in Army and Air Force.
http://www.operacional.pt/g-28-mg-5-na-unidade-de-protecao-da-forca-ii/

http://www.operacional.pt/novas-armas-e-miras-opticas-apresentadas-em-portugal/

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## Vazir

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Are there bids for light machine guns and anti-materiel rifles?


I'm all for M249 here


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## PWFI

JPMM said:


> Dont Forget HK MG5 7,62x51. The MG5 can use some of the componentes of the MG3 allready built in POF like the tripod. We are allready using MG5 in Army and Air Force.
> http://www.operacional.pt/g-28-mg-5-na-unidade-de-protecao-da-forca-ii/
> 
> http://www.operacional.pt/novas-armas-e-miras-opticas-apresentadas-em-portugal/


Only Nato army's have access to HK arms, unfortunately

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## Zarvan

PWFI said:


> Only Nato army's have access to HK arms, unfortunately


Even if my favorite SCAR is selected I think It's time Pakistan also designs one Rifle or at least copy produce HK 416/417 either totally on its own or in joint venture with Turkish or UAE companies

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## ali_raza

since we r discussing machine guns.can anyone knows why we don't use m2 browning machine gun


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## Vazir

Zarvan said:


> Even if my favorite SCAR is selected I think It's time Pakistan also designs one Rifle or at least copy produce HK 416/417 either totally on its own or in joint venture with Turkish or UAE companies


We could do worse than obtain production license for HK 416 A5 and start building them in POF. That would be good.


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## Zarvan

Vazir said:


> We could do worse than obtain production license for HK 416 A5 and start building them in POF. That would be good.


They will not give permission to produce at POF we have to steal the design


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## Vazir

Zarvan said:


> They will not give permission to produce at POF we have to steal the design


We could inflitrate their archives and get away with the design, sure. It will raise copyright issues if it turns out to be an exact copy, though.


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## Zarvan

Vazir said:


> We could inflitrate their archives and get away with the design, sure. It will raise copyright issues if it turns out to be an exact copy, though.


Not much issue can be raised


----------



## Gryphon

Reminds me of 

'_if wishes were horses, beggars would ride_'.

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## Arsalan

JPMM said:


> Dont Forget HK MG5 7,62x51. The MG5 can use some of the componentes of the MG3 allready built in POF like the tripod. We are allready using MG5 in Army and Air Force.
> http://www.operacional.pt/g-28-mg-5-na-unidade-de-protecao-da-forca-ii/
> 
> http://www.operacional.pt/novas-armas-e-miras-opticas-apresentadas-em-portugal/


HK is not open to sales to non NATO countries as of now. However it is there loss and they may realize it soon. Lets see. As of now, HK is not an option.



TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Reminds me of
> 
> '_if wishes were horses, beggars would ride_'.


Hahahha
That was exactly what i was thinking of!!


well


not exactly


I was thinking more on the lines "If wishes were horses ***** would have be flying and Su35"

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## Vazir

Arsalan said:


> HK is not open to sales to non NATO countries as of now. However it is there loss and they may realize it soon. Lets see. As of now, HK is not an option.


That's a shame. We should have had great diplomatic relations with the Germans. They make the most amazing military equipment..........


----------



## Arsalan

Vazir said:


> That's a shame. We should have had great diplomatic relations with the Germans. They make the most amazing military equipment..........


Actually, its not about OUR diplomatic relations. They are not really open to sell to non-NATO allies right now.

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## Vazir

Arsalan said:


> Actually, its not about OUR diplomatic relations. They are not really open to sell to non-NATO allies right now.


Yes, but I don't think that Pakistan would be on the first list of countries approved of buying them when they get available for non NATO countries. But, hell, that's my bias talking since I'm pretty much in love with Leopard 2 series.


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## Zarvan

Vazir said:


> Yes, but I don't think that Pakistan would be on the first list of countries approved of buying them when they get available for non NATO countries. But, hell, that's my bias talking since I'm pretty much in love with Leopard 2 series.


Every one would have loved to see that Rifle participating in our trials but they didn't came although Pakistan should try to get it for HK416\417 and Multi Caliber HK 33

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## Vazir

Zarvan said:


> Every one would have loved to see that Rifle participating in our trials but they didn't came although Pakistan should try to get it for HK416\417 and Multi Caliber HK 33


My vote would be for H417 A2. Carbine and full rifle. Production license and license to produce spare parts as well as perform upgrades over time. That would be what I would focus on. Maybe pay H&K a small royalty fee too.


----------



## Vergennes

Arsalan said:


> Actually, its not about OUR diplomatic relations. They are not really open to sell to non-NATO allies right now.



Yes HK will only focus on NATO and its partners for now. They must also be democratic and non corrupt. 



Arsalan said:


> HK is not open to sales to non NATO countries as of now. However it is there loss and they may realize it soon. Lets see. As of now, HK is not an option.



The problem is not really HK,but the fact that the German parliament might just not approve the sale.



Zarvan said:


> Every one would have loved to see that Rifle participating in our trials but they didn't came although Pakistan should try to get it for HK416\417 and Multi Caliber HK 33





Vazir said:


> My vote would be for H417 A2. Carbine and full rifle. Production license and license to produce spare parts as well as perform upgrades over time. That would be what I would focus on. Maybe pay H&K a small royalty fee too.




You guys can just forget about it.

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## Vazir

Vergennes said:


> You guys can just forget about it.


I don't see why. The Germans understand good business, and giving a license for the HK 417 A2 isn't such a big deal. We're not talking about SCAR, we're talking about 417. Unless you're just trolling us.
Though if we are trying to get production license for HK 417 and actually fail to do so, the government's negotiating skills will be officially shitty.


----------



## Arsalan

Vergennes said:


> Yes HK will only focus on NATO and its partners for now. They must also be democratic and non corrupt.


Democratic and non-corrupt?? 
Do this comes as a combo over there? 

*How much would we love to have such a combination here in Pakistan too!!!! 
*
I agree with what you said about HK but as i said, it is there loss as much as it is our's (if not more).
Anyway, there are some excellent options out there that have been evaluated and some options/names have already been forwarded as approved or acceptable as well. lets see what happens.


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## Vazir

Arsalan said:


> Democratic and non-corrupt??
> Do this comes as a combo over there?
> 
> *How much would we love to have such a combination here in Pakistan too!!!!
> *
> I agree with what you said about HK but as i said, it is there loss as much as it is our's (if not more).
> Anyway, there are some excellent options out there that have been evaluated and some options/names have already been forwarded as approved or acceptable as well. lets see what happens.


I wonder what the Chinese are using as main service rifles.


----------



## Arsalan

Vazir said:


> I wonder what the Chinese are using as main service rifles.


Mainly *QBZ-95*











CS/LR17 is a new gun in development that might replace QBZ-95

Here is *CS/LR17:*

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## Vazir

Arsalan said:


> Mainly *QBZ-95*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CS/LR17 is a new gun in development that might replace QBZ-95
> 
> Here is *CS/LR17:*


Yeah I was about to ask why we don't go to China for rifles, when you replied. QBZ-95 looks....... *shudders*


----------



## pzfz

PLA won't be going for any NAR751. They're sticking with the 5.8mm chambered round. qbz-95 is built specifically for that round.


----------



## Amaa'n

Zarvan said:


> Well all are waiting for final announcement hope @Horus comes up with the news soon and by the where is our member @balixd


am all here dear --- just left the forum, was caught up with stuff at home, work & studies ....hence needed to take a break.......



Arsalan said:


> Hmmm means business as usual!!
> 
> Balixd i guess got fed up with what we are doing last over 4000 posts now and keft the thread. Not too active on the forumn these days either. Hope he joins us back soon.


hehehe --- yes dear I was away indeed but am back in business, still at work though and it seems I have a lot of catching up to do -----

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## Zarvan

balixd said:


> am all here dear --- just left the forum, was caught up with stuff at home, work & studies ....hence needed to take a break.......
> 
> 
> hehehe --- yes dear I was away indeed but am back in business, still at work though and it seems I have a lot of catching up to do -----


Finally Welcome Back Janab !!!!!!!!!!! so How are you and your family ?

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## Amaa'n

So far alive & not dead, still breathing  ....family is good enjoying there time


Zarvan said:


> Finally Welcome Back Janab !!!!!!!!!!! so How are you and your family ?

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## Sulman Badshah

POF with Caracal


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## Zarvan

Sulman Badshah said:


> POF with Caracal
> View attachment 395175


The picture is from recent IDEX 2017 and even if SCAR gets selected POF should collaborate with Caracal and design something similar to HK 416\417 series we have Police to equip also we can earn from exports


----------



## Amaa'n

Zarvan said:


> The picture is from recent IDEX 2017 and even if SCAR gets selected POF should collaborate with Caracal and design something similar to HK 416\417 series we have Police to equip also we can earn from exports


Carcal had there Handguns exploded on shooter's face ----they recalled their weapon thrice in US ----no thank you on the Carcal ----
Beretta ARX or In house design (means, pick a piece from here and two from there to make a new rifle)  is the way to go

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## Zarvan

balixd said:


> Carcal had there Handguns exploded on shooter's face ----they recalled their weapon thrice in US ----no thank you on the Carcal ----
> Beretta ARX or In house design (means, pick a piece from here and two from there to make a new rifle)  is the way to go


According to @Horus Beretta and CZ both failed in trials. Although along with SCAR I was supporting one other Rifle series to be produced in Pakistan specially if we are getting permission to export them as well. We have massive market in Africa and even Middle East to cover


----------



## Sulman Badshah

Zarvan said:


> The picture is from recent IDEX 2017 and even if SCAR gets selected POF should collaborate with Caracal and design something similar to HK 416\417 series we have Police to equip also we can earn from exports


Caracal had safety issued before ... They even recalled their sold weapons from customer ..

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## JK!

Zarvan said:


> According to @Horus Beretta and CZ both failed in trials. Although along with SCAR I was supporting one other Rifle series to be produced in Pakistan specially if we are getting permission to export them as well. We have massive market in Africa and even Middle East to cover



See why would any arms manufacturer with a shred of common sense give Pakistan the licence to produce their product to reap the reward of exporting it elsewhere?

It doesn't make good business sense at all. I think this will be the most likely hold up for any sale.


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

JK! said:


> See why would any arms manufacturer with a shred of common sense give Pakistan the licence to produce their product to reap the reward of exporting it elsewhere?
> 
> It doesn't make good business sense at all. I think this will be the most likely hold up for any sale.


The OEM would let POF export the rifles in-exchange for a licensing fee. Basically, the OEM would bank on POF production to grow the overall market, especially to areas that were previously inaccessible to the OEM due to the cost of producing in Europe or due to local sensitivities (about selling small-arms to the Middle East and Africa). POF would get the manufacturing work and some of the profits, and the OEM would get a cut for each rifle sold (on top of the amount made on selling the manufacturing facilities).

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## Zarvan

JK! said:


> See why would any arms manufacturer with a shred of common sense give Pakistan the licence to produce their product to reap the reward of exporting it elsewhere?
> 
> It doesn't make good business sense at all. I think this will be the most likely hold up for any sale.


SCAR and Berreta and CZ all three are offering this


----------



## JK!

Point has been replied to thank you for the additional perspective guys.

It's still going to hold things up re. The fine print of any deal/contract detailing what "cut" each manufacturer can get from a rifle sale.


----------



## Arsalan

balixd said:


> am all here dear --- just left the forum, was caught up with stuff at home, work & studies ....hence needed to take a break.......
> 
> 
> hehehe --- yes dear I was away indeed but am back in business, still at work though and it seems I have a lot of catching up to do -----


Ni ni kuch khas ni!! 

SCAR is the best,
SCAR sucks,
It is final, 100% confirmed, selected, sure, pathar pa lakeer!!! 






*No its not!! *
CZ is better, 
No ARX is!!!

I guess i have summarized this thread for you.

Meanwhile elsewhere on forum:

Every freaking official visit, EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM, To and From any country means military hardware deal, just get that straight!!
Politics is a game we all love to play.
Afghans are not our brothers these days, Iran is getting there fast as well.
LCA is still not flying (i guess)
There is a friend here on forum who was saying that we should get 150 T129 pronto and station 40 on Afghan border and 40 on Iran border and some other on Indian border (i guess, he never mentioned India). I suggested that perhaps it would be better if we can get some 1200 (as it is not a problem since i only had to strike two more digit keys on my laptop) and station some 400 on all of those borders.
Other topics, it is business as usual. Every now and then there is that mention of a Pakistani aircraft carrier and a nuclear submarine, sometimes we also venture into SLV and ICBMs, baki sb Allah ka karam ha!!




Ta daaaa!!!!!

*Here you go, 5 min read and you are up-to-date after months of absence!!*

Hor kuch sady laik?

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## Vazir

Arsalan said:


> Ni ni kuch khas ni!!
> 
> SCAR is the best,
> SCAR sucks,
> It is final, 100% confirmed, selected, sure, pathar pa lakeer!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *No its not!! *
> CZ is better,
> No ARX is!!!
> 
> I guess i have summarized this thread for you.
> 
> Meanwhile elsewhere on forum:
> 
> Every freaking official visit, EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM, To and From any country means military hardware deal, just get that straight!!
> Politics is a game we all love to play.
> Afghans are not our brothers these days, Iran is getting there fast as well.
> LCA is still not flying (i guess)
> There is a friend here on forum who was saying that we should get 150 T129 pronto and station 40 on Afghan border and 40 on Iran border and some other on Indian border (i guess, he never mentioned India). I suggested that perhaps it would be better if we can get some 1200 (as it is not a problem since i only had to strike two more digit keys on my laptop) and station some 400 on all of those borders.
> Other topics, it is business as usual. Every now and then there is that mention of a Pakistani aircraft carrier and a nuclear submarine, sometimes we also venture into SLV and ICBMs, baki sb Allah ka karam ha!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ta daaaa!!!!!
> 
> *Here you go, 5 min read and you are up-to-date after months of absence!!*
> 
> Hor kuch sady laik? [emoji14]


Lol and all that shite doesn't even make sense. For example, why would we need a carrier? Just why?


----------



## khanasifm

Its time to shutdown this thread


----------



## razgriz19

Yeah shut it down. Open it again when something actually gets selected. Then we can all scrutinize it


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## Zarvan

razgriz19 said:


> Yeah shut it down. Open it again when something actually gets selected. Then we can all scrutinize it


No need new Rifle is 50 years investment so things take time


----------



## Amaa'n

Arsalan said:


> There is a friend here on forum who was saying that we should get 150 T129 pronto and station 40 on Afghan border and 40 on Iran border and some other on Indian border (i guess, he never mentioned India). I suggested that perhaps it would be better if we can get some 1200 (as it is not a problem since i only had to strike two more digit keys on my laptop) and station some 400 on all of those borders.
> Other topics, it is business as usual. Every now and then there is that mention of a Pakistani aircraft carrier and a nuclear submarine, sometimes we also venture into SLV and ICBMs, baki sb Allah ka karam ha!!


na na thanks a lot for all the write up ---
one wonders where would all this be arranged from? everynow and then it is suggest we need 5000 Police ATS commandos for each province, all need to have APC, then on the top we have all this long wishlist ----(Truck mounted Artillery, Tanks, Attack Helicopter......

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## JK!

balixd said:


> na na thanks a lot for all the write up ---
> one wonders where would all this be arranged from? everynow and then it is suggest we need 5000 Police ATS commandos for each province, all need to have APC, then on the top we have all this long wishlist ----(Truck mounted Artillery, Tanks, Attack Helicopter......



LOL my wish list has existed since early 2000s and included T84 Oplot MBTs back then. Only taken about 10 years to finally happen!

More than the rifles themselves I'm keen to see what sighting systems day/night are going to be used with the future rifle.


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## Arsalan

balixd said:


> na na thanks a lot for all the write up ---
> one wonders where would all this be arranged from? everynow and then it is suggest we need 5000 Police ATS commandos for each province, all need to have APC, then on the top we have all this long wishlist ----(Truck mounted Artillery, Tanks, Attack Helicopter......



Well there is not doubt that we need military hardware. The problem comes when:

People start translating ANY and EVERY official visit to some other country as military hardware deals. They fail to realize that not every meeting means we are getting jets or tanks or some pepper spray!
Start blowing thing out of proportion, specially when it comes to numbers required.
Complete ignore the priority list and fail to comprehend what is required as a matter of urgency. Like talking about aircraft carrier with a fleet of surface vessels having no air-defense missile with range more than 20-30 km?
and the biggest of them all, start quoting there wishes and Facebook fantasies as "proper authentic 100% sure pathat pa lakeer NEWS"

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## Zarvan




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## Army research

Zarvan said:


>


OMG I saw this pic of the Russian para troops training with US in anti terror and once I saw this scar I was like well this pic gonna be in rifle thread, you dissapointed me as it took you two days [emoji38]


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## Path-Finder

Army research said:


> OMG I saw this pic of the Russian para troops training with US in anti terror and once I saw this scar I was like well this pic gonna be in rifle thread, you dissapointed me as it took you two days [emoji38]


 Hazrat hasn't posted any pics of SCAR for a long time now! Where is this from again? got more pics of the exercise?

But as always SCAR was the best rifle in Trials.

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## Army research

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat hasn't posted any pics of SCAR for a long time now! Where is this from again? got more pics of the exercise?
> 
> But as always SCAR was the best rifle in Trials.


It was in the Russian military media section


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## Gryphon

*LEAKED: Pakistan Army Requirements for Tender of 75,000 New 7.62x39mm Rifles*

by Nathaniel F
2017-05-16






The CZ Bren 2 in 7.62x39mm - shown here - is a strong contender for the Pakistani rifle contract.

Thanks to a recent leak exclusively to The Firearm Blog, we have now become aware of a new tender for rifles issued by the Pakistani government. According to the tender document, the Pakistani Army is looking for 75,000 “modern 7.62x39mm caliber weapons”, presumably as part of the program to replace their aging fleet of G3 and Type 56 assault rifles. The specifications for the tender are given below:


























The document that we have is not actually a raw tender, rather it is a manufacturer’s _reply_ to a tender. As such, the document is divided into two parts. On the left of every sheet are the requirements as disseminated by the Pakistani government. On the right are the characteristics of the rifle from the company that is being solicited, according to its manufacturer. Essentially, on the left we have the solicitation, and on the right the reply.

Based on the characteristics of the rifle as listed on the right side of the document, it seems we are looking at either Česká Zbrojovka’s (CZ) or Beretta’s submission, with me leaning towards the former. We know that at least five companies are courting this Pakistani contract: FN, Kalashnikov Concern, CZ, Beretta, and Zastava. We can eliminate FN, as they have so far only offered the SCAR-H in 7.62x51mm. Zastava’s and Kalashnikov Concern’s offerings (the M21 and AK-103) do not meet the overall length criteria given by the manufacturer on page 1. That leaves Beretta and CZ as possibles. However, up till now Beretta has only offered their 7.62x51mm ARX-200, not their 7.62x39mm ARX-160A3, and it is also not obvious that Beretta offers a magazine with round counter for the latter rifle. This leaves CZ with their 7.62x39mm 806 Bren 2 as the most likely company for the rifle on the right.

LEAKED: Pakistan Army Requirements for Tender of 75,000 New 7.62x39mm Rifles | thefirearmblog.com

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## Super Falcon

Germans are not sensible business persons working for NATO won't do any good to them


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## Arsalan

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> *LEAKED: Pakistan Army Requirements for Tender of 75,000 New 7.62x39mm Rifles*
> 
> by Nathaniel F
> 2017-05-16
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The CZ Bren 2 in 7.62x39mm - shown here - is a strong contender for the Pakistani rifle contract.
> 
> Thanks to a recent leak exclusively to The Firearm Blog, we have now become aware of a new tender for rifles issued by the Pakistani government. According to the tender document, the Pakistani Army is looking for 75,000 “modern 7.62x39mm caliber weapons”, presumably as part of the program to replace their aging fleet of G3 and Type 56 assault rifles. The specifications for the tender are given below:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The document that we have is not actually a raw tender, rather it is a manufacturer’s _reply_ to a tender. As such, the document is divided into two parts. On the left of every sheet are the requirements as disseminated by the Pakistani government. On the right are the characteristics of the rifle from the company that is being solicited, according to its manufacturer. Essentially, on the left we have the solicitation, and on the right the reply.
> 
> Based on the characteristics of the rifle as listed on the right side of the document, it seems we are looking at either Česká Zbrojovka’s (CZ) or Beretta’s submission, with me leaning towards the former. We know that at least five companies are courting this Pakistani contract: FN, Kalashnikov Concern, CZ, Beretta, and Zastava. We can eliminate FN, as they have so far only offered the SCAR-H in 7.62x51mm. Zastava’s and Kalashnikov Concern’s offerings (the M21 and AK-103) do not meet the overall length criteria given by the manufacturer on page 1. That leaves Beretta and CZ as possibles. However, up till now Beretta has only offered their 7.62x51mm ARX-200, not their 7.62x39mm ARX-160A3, and it is also not obvious that Beretta offers a magazine with round counter for the latter rifle. This leaves CZ with their 7.62x39mm 806 Bren 2 as the most likely company for the rifle on the right.
> LEAKED: Pakistan Army Requirements for Tender of 75,000 New 7.62x39mm Rifles | thefirearmblog.com


CZ BERN would be an excellent choice for sure. The 7.62x39mm decision seems almost done now with the business details finalized to a large extent as well. The delay is most probable related to settling financial details and waiting for the budget. 

I hope a decision on 7.62x51mm is made soon too.

Also as i have been saying for ages now, the guns are most likely to be procured in batches and the performance of the first batch will influence follow up orders that will eventually entirely replace the G3 and Type 56, It is not like since trials are done we will replace ALL GUNS in on go. The media may make it sound like that but will be just out of there ignorance!! The first batch in production and then in use will truly determine the future.

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## Zarvan

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> *LEAKED: Pakistan Army Requirements for Tender of 75,000 New 7.62x39mm Rifles*
> 
> by Nathaniel F
> 2017-05-16
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The CZ Bren 2 in 7.62x39mm - shown here - is a strong contender for the Pakistani rifle contract.
> 
> Thanks to a recent leak exclusively to The Firearm Blog, we have now become aware of a new tender for rifles issued by the Pakistani government. According to the tender document, the Pakistani Army is looking for 75,000 “modern 7.62x39mm caliber weapons”, presumably as part of the program to replace their aging fleet of G3 and Type 56 assault rifles. The specifications for the tender are given below:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The document that we have is not actually a raw tender, rather it is a manufacturer’s _reply_ to a tender. As such, the document is divided into two parts. On the left of every sheet are the requirements as disseminated by the Pakistani government. On the right are the characteristics of the rifle from the company that is being solicited, according to its manufacturer. Essentially, on the left we have the solicitation, and on the right the reply.
> 
> Based on the characteristics of the rifle as listed on the right side of the document, it seems we are looking at either Česká Zbrojovka’s (CZ) or Beretta’s submission, with me leaning towards the former. We know that at least five companies are courting this Pakistani contract: FN, Kalashnikov Concern, CZ, Beretta, and Zastava. We can eliminate FN, as they have so far only offered the SCAR-H in 7.62x51mm. Zastava’s and Kalashnikov Concern’s offerings (the M21 and AK-103) do not meet the overall length criteria given by the manufacturer on page 1. That leaves Beretta and CZ as possibles. However, up till now Beretta has only offered their 7.62x51mm ARX-200, not their 7.62x39mm ARX-160A3, and it is also not obvious that Beretta offers a magazine with round counter for the latter rifle. This leaves CZ with their 7.62x39mm 806 Bren 2 as the most likely company for the rifle on the right.
> 
> LEAKED: Pakistan Army Requirements for Tender of 75,000 New 7.62x39mm Rifles | thefirearmblog.com



@Horus and @balixd your comments are needed here


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## Muhammad Omar

just 75000???


----------



## Zarvan

Muhammad Omar said:


> just 75000???


That is the order which we would buy directly from company


----------



## Muhammad Omar

Zarvan said:


> That is the order which we would buy directly from company



oh 10% order from company 90% production at POF Nice


----------



## Path-Finder

Arsalan said:


> CZ BERN would be an excellent choice for sure. The 7.62x39mm decision seems almost done now with the business details finalized to a large extent as well. The delay is most probable related to settling financial details and waiting for the budget.
> 
> I hope a decision on 7.62x51mm is made soon too.
> 
> Also as i have been saying for ages now, the guns are most likely to be procured in batches and the performance of the first batch will influence follow up orders that will eventually entirely replace the G3 and Type 56, It is not like since trials are done we will replace ALL GUNS in on go. The media may make it sound like that but will be just out of there ignorance!! The first batch in production and then in use will truly determine the future.


Me thinks x39 is a priority because of the on going ops. 

Our Hazrat is heavily reliant on the firearms blog and they have committed a blasphemy against the SCAR.

But as always SCAR was the best rifle in trials

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## Vazir

Path-Finder said:


> Me thinks x39 is a priority because of the on going ops.
> 
> Our Hazrat is heavily reliant on the firearms blog and they have committed a blasphemy against the SCAR.
> 
> But as always SCAR was the best rifle in trials


Because nothing beats SCAR. Period.


----------



## Vapnope

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> *LEAKED: Pakistan Army Requirements for Tender of 75,000 New 7.62x39mm Rifles*
> 
> by Nathaniel F
> 2017-05-16
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The CZ Bren 2 in 7.62x39mm - shown here - is a strong contender for the Pakistani rifle contract.
> 
> Thanks to a recent leak exclusively to The Firearm Blog, we have now become aware of a new tender for rifles issued by the Pakistani government. According to the tender document, the Pakistani Army is looking for 75,000 “modern 7.62x39mm caliber weapons”, presumably as part of the program to replace their aging fleet of G3 and Type 56 assault rifles. The specifications for the tender are given below:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The document that we have is not actually a raw tender, rather it is a manufacturer’s _reply_ to a tender. As such, the document is divided into two parts. On the left of every sheet are the requirements as disseminated by the Pakistani government. On the right are the characteristics of the rifle from the company that is being solicited, according to its manufacturer. Essentially, on the left we have the solicitation, and on the right the reply.
> 
> Based on the characteristics of the rifle as listed on the right side of the document, it seems we are looking at either Česká Zbrojovka’s (CZ) or Beretta’s submission, with me leaning towards the former. We know that at least five companies are courting this Pakistani contract: FN, Kalashnikov Concern, CZ, Beretta, and Zastava. We can eliminate FN, as they have so far only offered the SCAR-H in 7.62x51mm. Zastava’s and Kalashnikov Concern’s offerings (the M21 and AK-103) do not meet the overall length criteria given by the manufacturer on page 1. That leaves Beretta and CZ as possibles. However, up till now Beretta has only offered their 7.62x51mm ARX-200, not their 7.62x39mm ARX-160A3, and it is also not obvious that Beretta offers a magazine with round counter for the latter rifle. This leaves CZ with their 7.62x39mm 806 Bren 2 as the most likely company for the rifle on the right.
> 
> LEAKED: Pakistan Army Requirements for Tender of 75,000 New 7.62x39mm Rifles | thefirearmblog.com


Did anybody notice that less than 3.5 MOA accuracy is achieved only after using OEM (original equipment manufacturer) supplied ammo. 
This technically means we will have to buy ammo every time from the selected vendor unless he shares ToT for ammo production as well. 
@TheOccupiedKashmir @Path-Finder @Arsalan

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## Path-Finder

Vapnope said:


> Did anybody notice that less than 3.5 MOA accuracy is achieved only after using OEM (original equipment manufacturer) supplied ammo.
> This technically means we will have to buy ammo every time from the selected vendor unless he shares ToT for ammo production as well.
> @TheOccupiedKashmir @Path-Finder @Arsalan


I am pretty sure it achieved that result as long as ammo is made at high quality in POF it won't be a problem. 

Another thing is the Manufacturer says exceeding 10K is what the rifle can achieve with continuous mag dumps while POF has a limit for failure at lower as requested.

Me says porkies were being fed to us by secret "sources" 

@Rafi man you have constantly right!



Vazir said:


> Because nothing beats SCAR. Period.


 Forgive us SCAR haters we are blasphemers against the greatest rifle (ne)Ever

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## Rafi

Path-Finder said:


> I am pretty sure it achieved that result as long as ammo is made at high quality in POF it won't be a problem.
> 
> Another thing is the Manufacturer says exceeding 10K is what the rifle can achieve with continuous mag dumps while POF has a limit for failure at lower as requested.
> 
> Me says porkies were being fed to us by secret "sources"
> 
> @Rafi man you have constantly right!
> 
> 
> Forgive us SCAR haters we are blasphemers against the greatest rifle (ne)Ever



SCAR Teri ja nassar be shared LoL.

CZ are offering a comprehensive long term relationship, that has put them within touching distance of winning the tender.



Muhammad Omar said:


> oh 10% order from company 90% production at POF Nice



Correct, with licence produced for export. And also ready upgrades.

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> I am pretty sure it achieved that result as long as ammo is made at high quality in POF it won't be a problem.
> 
> Another thing is the Manufacturer says exceeding 10K is what the rifle can achieve with continuous mag dumps while POF has a limit for failure at lower as requested.
> 
> Me says porkies were being fed to us by secret "sources"
> 
> @Rafi man you have constantly right!
> 
> 
> Forgive us SCAR haters we are blasphemers against the greatest rifle (ne)Ever


CZ is pretty much out of competition dude. Pakistan may drop 7.62 X 39 caliber weapon. This is original tender which was issued hardly tells about what happened during the trials and repeating same crap which it heard during IDEAS


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> CZ is pretty much out of competition dude. Pakistan may drop 7.62 X 39 caliber weapon. This is original tender which was issued hardly tells about what happened during the trials and repeating same crap which it heard during IDEAS


Hazrat only SCAR can come we know that! Anything else to add? Greatest rifle to fail globally can only come to Pakistan. Whoops 

SCAR was the best rifle in trials

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## Gryphon

Vapnope said:


> Did anybody notice that less than 3.5 MOA accuracy is achieved only after using OEM (original equipment manufacturer) supplied ammo.
> This technically means we will have to buy ammo every time from the selected vendor unless he shares ToT for ammo production as well.
> @TheOccupiedKashmir @Path-Finder @Arsalan



CZ used ammo supplied by _Sellier & Bellot_ during the trials. Not very high quality.


----------



## Army research

Zarvan said:


> CZ is pretty much out of competition dude. Pakistan may drop 7.62 X 39 caliber weapon. This is original tender which was issued hardly tells about what happened during the trials and repeating same crap which it heard during IDEAS


According to official documents it looks miles ahead


----------



## Vapnope

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> CZ used ammo supplied by _Sellier & Bellot_ during the trials. Not very high quality.


So is this contract includes license production of Ammo for CZ or not?


----------



## Zarvan

Vapnope said:


> So is this contract includes license production of Ammo for CZ or not?


Even Gun is not decided yet let along ammo but I seriously believe POF needs to improve ammo quality. @Horus


----------



## Vapnope

Zarvan said:


> Even Gun is not decided yet let along ammo but I seriously believe POF needs to improve ammo quality. @Horus


There was a news regarding MoU of CZ with POF we have not seen any such MoU of POF with other competitors. Quwa reported it. 
We don't have any official news regarding which company was selected.


----------



## Amaa'n

Horus said:


> Five Seven was specifically designed to penetrate body armor.


yeah but same job can be done by 7.62 x26 too  shouldn't we be handing out TT (tokarev) to them 
also interesting would be to consider the knockdown power, someone with an Armour can still be taken down with a heavier round such as .357sig or .45acp ---- the assailant may still be standing in front of you even when bullet passes through his body with a 5.7 or .30


----------



## Path-Finder

Vapnope said:


> There was a news regarding MoU of CZ with POF we have not seen any such MoU of POF with other competitors. Quwa reported it.
> We don't have any official news regarding which company was selected.


Our Hazrat has source's that told him SCAR manuals have been issued to soldiers. CZ exploded during trials. Beretta bribed POF. Beretta failed accuracy and is out. 

In a nutshell. SCAR was the best rifle in trials.

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## Amaa'n

Zarvan said:


> Even Gun is not decided yet let along ammo but I seriously believe POF needs to improve ammo quality. @Horus


Have you even use PoF ammo that you are questioning the ammo quality ? 



Path-Finder said:


> Our Hazrat has source's that told him SCAR manuals have been issued to soldiers. CZ exploded during trials. Beretta bribed POF. Beretta failed accuracy and is out.
> 
> In a nutshell. SCAR was the best rifle in trials.


i remember there was a post of Horus where he gave details of CZ having jamming issues during the trail, any link to that post, i want to read that in detail ---- i believe the issue of CZ jamming during trails was due to ammo

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## Path-Finder

balixd said:


> Have you even use PoF ammo that you are questioning the ammo quality ?
> 
> 
> i remember there was a post of Horus where he gave details of CZ having jamming issues during the trail, any link to that post, i want to read that in detail ---- i believe the issue of CZ jamming during trails was due to ammo


https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paki...competition-2016.426049/page-272#post-9386742

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paki...competition-2016.426049/page-256#post-9359027

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paki...competition-2016.426049/page-243#post-9348124

It actually began when I posted a video of CZ being tested by Balochistan police. Some sort grenade went off certain camp was foaming at the mouth 

@balixd

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## Vapnope

Path-Finder said:


> Our Hazrat has source's that told him SCAR manuals have been issued to soldiers. CZ exploded during trials. Beretta bribed POF. Beretta failed accuracy and is out.
> 
> In a nutshell. SCAR was the best rifle in trials.


Haha i have no doubt about SCAR "capabilities" however this doesn't mean SCAR will be awarded the contract. 
What is your take on the case? Do you think CZ has been selected? 


balixd said:


> Have you even use PoF ammo that you are questioning the ammo quality ?


I have used POF ammo and its not top notch though way better than local/darra made ammo.


----------



## Path-Finder

Vapnope said:


> Haha i have no doubt about SCAR "capabilities" however this doesn't mean SCAR will be awarded the contract.
> What is your take on the case? Do you think CZ has been selected?
> 
> I have used POF ammo and its not top notch though way better than local/darra made ammo.


Honestly it's now almost 2 years of speculation and hidden source's. Hopefully the results come out soon. As for CZ in particular then it depends if you beleive hidden source's or not. Dont want to upset Hazrat.


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## Amaa'n

Path-Finder said:


> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paki...competition-2016.426049/page-272#post-9386742
> 
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paki...competition-2016.426049/page-256#post-9359027
> 
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paki...competition-2016.426049/page-243#post-9348124
> 
> It actually began when I posted a video of CZ being tested by Balochistan police. Some sort grenade went off certain camp was foaming at the mouth
> 
> @balixd


that CZ horus said was DMR is not DMR but standard barrel length rifle -----
anyhow on personal level i see the game falling in the hands of CZ no matter how much they cheated (as said)

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## Rashid Mahmood

Zarvan said:


> Even Gun is not decided yet let along ammo but I seriously believe POF needs to improve ammo quality. @Horus



In all my years during training/service/personal firings, have used POF rounds and never have they ever misfired.
9mm or 7.62.

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## Icarus

Rashid Mahmood said:


> In all my years during training/service/personal firings, have used POF rounds and never have they ever misfired.
> 9mm or 7.62.



Same, I'm happy with POF offerings. Have had some misfires with older personal ammo but hardly ever with fresh service ammo.

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## Talwar e Pakistan

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> *LEAKED: Pakistan Army Requirements for Tender of 75,000 New 7.62x39mm Rifles*
> 
> by Nathaniel F
> 2017-05-16
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The CZ Bren 2 in 7.62x39mm - shown here - is a strong contender for the Pakistani rifle contract.
> 
> Thanks to a recent leak exclusively to The Firearm Blog, we have now become aware of a new tender for rifles issued by the Pakistani government. According to the tender document, the Pakistani Army is looking for 75,000 “modern 7.62x39mm caliber weapons”, presumably as part of the program to replace their aging fleet of G3 and Type 56 assault rifles. The specifications for the tender are given below:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The document that we have is not actually a raw tender, rather it is a manufacturer’s _reply_ to a tender. As such, the document is divided into two parts. On the left of every sheet are the requirements as disseminated by the Pakistani government. On the right are the characteristics of the rifle from the company that is being solicited, according to its manufacturer. Essentially, on the left we have the solicitation, and on the right the reply.
> 
> Based on the characteristics of the rifle as listed on the right side of the document, it seems we are looking at either Česká Zbrojovka’s (CZ) or Beretta’s submission, with me leaning towards the former. We know that at least five companies are courting this Pakistani contract: FN, Kalashnikov Concern, CZ, Beretta, and Zastava. We can eliminate FN, as they have so far only offered the SCAR-H in 7.62x51mm. Zastava’s and Kalashnikov Concern’s offerings (the M21 and AK-103) do not meet the overall length criteria given by the manufacturer on page 1. That leaves Beretta and CZ as possibles. However, up till now Beretta has only offered their 7.62x51mm ARX-200, not their 7.62x39mm ARX-160A3, and it is also not obvious that Beretta offers a magazine with round counter for the latter rifle. This leaves CZ with their 7.62x39mm 806 Bren 2 as the most likely company for the rifle on the right.
> 
> LEAKED: Pakistan Army Requirements for Tender of 75,000 New 7.62x39mm Rifles | thefirearmblog.com


Why only 75,000 for a military of 600,000


----------



## Amaa'n

Vapnope said:


> I have used POF ammo and its not top notch though way better than local/darra made ammo.


if you use the older batch of 90s as in use with Armed forces than those are very good and accurate, good as range fooder, gives no FTF or FTE, but as you come towards 2008-2011 batch that was available commercially than that is really bad one, because machines were outdated & old, this batch had a lot of complains related to jamming, i used around 200 of these at the range, poor accuracy & too much fouling with continuous stoppage ----
than came 2012 MK17 batch this one was really good though a heavier round , a little more recoil ----
the current batch 2013 that i still got 200 pack left is a good one, nice recoil & no stoppage ---

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## Vapnope

balixd said:


> if you use the older batch of 90s as in use with Armed forces than those are very good and accurate, good as range fooder, gives no FTF or FTE, but as you come towards 2008-2011 batch that was available commercially than that is really bad one, because machines were outdated & old, this batch had a lot of complains related to jamming, i used around 200 of these at the range, poor accuracy & too much fouling with continuous stoppage ----
> than came 2012 MK17 batch this one was really good though a heavier round , a little more recoil ----
> the current batch 2013 that i still got 200 pack left is a good one, nice recoil & no stoppage ---


Exactly recently their standard has come down.
Also what about 2012MK17? Did they increase the grain size?


----------



## Zarvan

balixd said:


> that CZ horus said was DMR is not DMR but standard barrel length rifle -----
> anyhow on personal level i see the game falling in the hands of CZ no matter how much they cheated (as said)


Sir according to @Horus CZ blasted during trials and it was also less accurate than AK-103 but AK guys are not ready to give TOT.


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Sir according to CZ blasted during trials and it was also less accurate than AK-103 but AK guys are not ready to give TOT.


Oh dear Hazrat, he is favoring a blasted rifle. . You should tell balixd SCAR was the best rifle in Trials


----------



## El Fuego

Well if you go throughout that list of failures provided by Horus. One should not miss this point:
"SCAR passed these number of rounds without any jam and hence cooked off 2 times" and than again once or twice..

cook off means exactly - uncontrolled explosion of rifle or at least uncontrolled self ignition of round inside the chamber resulting in weapon which is firing itself.

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## Kompromat

This is a blatant violation of the privacy agreement, Army is deeply pissed off with this 'leak' and it might cost CZ a great deal. 



TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> *LEAKED: Pakistan Army Requirements for Tender of 75,000 New 7.62x39mm Rifles*
> 
> by Nathaniel F
> 2017-05-16
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The CZ Bren 2 in 7.62x39mm - shown here - is a strong contender for the Pakistani rifle contract.
> 
> Thanks to a recent leak exclusively to The Firearm Blog, we have now become aware of a new tender for rifles issued by the Pakistani government. According to the tender document, the Pakistani Army is looking for 75,000 “modern 7.62x39mm caliber weapons”, presumably as part of the program to replace their aging fleet of G3 and Type 56 assault rifles. The specifications for the tender are given below:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The document that we have is not actually a raw tender, rather it is a manufacturer’s _reply_ to a tender. As such, the document is divided into two parts. On the left of every sheet are the requirements as disseminated by the Pakistani government. On the right are the characteristics of the rifle from the company that is being solicited, according to its manufacturer. Essentially, on the left we have the solicitation, and on the right the reply.
> 
> Based on the characteristics of the rifle as listed on the right side of the document, it seems we are looking at either Česká Zbrojovka’s (CZ) or Beretta’s submission, with me leaning towards the former. We know that at least five companies are courting this Pakistani contract: FN, Kalashnikov Concern, CZ, Beretta, and Zastava. We can eliminate FN, as they have so far only offered the SCAR-H in 7.62x51mm. Zastava’s and Kalashnikov Concern’s offerings (the M21 and AK-103) do not meet the overall length criteria given by the manufacturer on page 1. That leaves Beretta and CZ as possibles. However, up till now Beretta has only offered their 7.62x51mm ARX-200, not their 7.62x39mm ARX-160A3, and it is also not obvious that Beretta offers a magazine with round counter for the latter rifle. This leaves CZ with their 7.62x39mm 806 Bren 2 as the most likely company for the rifle on the right.
> 
> LEAKED: Pakistan Army Requirements for Tender of 75,000 New 7.62x39mm Rifles | thefirearmblog.com

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## Zarvan

Horus said:


> This is a blatant violation of the privacy agreement, Army is deeply pissed off with this 'leak' and it might cost CZ a great deal.


You said CZ is out


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## Kompromat

They are banking on x39. Without any viable competition, Army is not expected to choose CZ just because no competition is available as of yet. 



Zarvan said:


> You said CZ is out

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## Path-Finder

Horus said:


> This is a blatant violation of the privacy agreement, Army is deeply pissed off with this 'leak' and it might cost CZ a great deal.



That has to mean that SCAR in x39 is coming 


Zarvan said:


> You said CZ is out


oh Dear Hazrat!



Horus said:


> They are banking on x39. Without any viable competition, Army is not expected to choose CZ just because no competition is available as of yet.








considering in a country where dawn leaks happens Army will be pissed of with CZ leak! hmmm NO


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> That has to mean that SCAR in x39 is coming
> 
> oh Dear Hazrat!


SCAR x 39 if comes will have to pass tests so it would take time


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> SCAR x 39 if comes will have to pass tests so it would take time


No Hazrat it has passed!


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> That has to mean that SCAR in x39 is coming
> 
> oh Dear Hazrat!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> considering in a country where dawn leaks happens Army will be pissed of with CZ leak! hmmm NO


Please first understand DAWN Leaks issue people have no idea about the whole issue and still like to talk the decision which came was the only thing which could have happened. If some people were thinking Mariam would be hanged than they are wrong.



Path-Finder said:


> No Hazrat it has passed!


SCAR X 51 passed trials the x 39 hasn't even arrived yet


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Please first understand DAWN Leaks issue people have no idea about the whole issue and still like to talk the decision which came was the only thing which could have happened. If some people were thinking Mariam would be hanged than they are wrong.
> 
> 
> SCAR X 51 passed trials the x 39 hasn't even arrived yet


Oh please Hazrat, don't tell us what dawn leaks were and were not! Everyone knows what they are. As for the SCAR Hazrat it has passed for you? isn't it? Or you are trying to humbling now?


----------



## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Oh please Hazrat, don't tell us what dawn leaks were and were not! Everyone knows what they are. As for the SCAR Hazrat it has passed for you? isn't it? Or you are trying to humbling now?


Sorry most have no idea but want to comment they result which came was the thing which would have happened nothing else would have happened. If people had wrong expectations it's there problem not Army.


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## Kompromat

SCAR x39 is just a prototype. 



Path-Finder said:


> That has to mean that SCAR in x39 is coming
> 
> oh Dear Hazrat!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> considering in a country where dawn leaks happens Army will be pissed of with CZ leak! hmmm NO


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## Zarvan

Horus said:


> SCAR x39 is just a prototype.


By the way the optics which will come with Rifle will it be produced by POF or which other company will produce them in Pakistan ?


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Sorry most have no idea but want to comment they result which came was the thing which would have happened nothing else would have happened. If people had wrong expectations it's there problem not Army.


and what the hell does that mean Hazrat? A very poor defence is what you have presented.

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## Amaa'n

The leak could have been made on Pakistan side too, i don't understand why all the blame on CZ for this ----



Horus said:


> This is a blatant violation of the privacy agreement, Army is deeply pissed off with this 'leak' and it might cost CZ a great deal.





Vapnope said:


> Exactly recently their standard has come down.
> Also what about 2012MK17? Did they increase the grain size?


the new lot is good, that comes in Blue box, no issues with that, however havnt fired it in numbers to make a conclusion
as far as MK17 is concerned than MK17 was packing more or same as Chinese box........If you recall there used to be two variants of Pof 9mm 1z & 2z, 1z being a little lighter than the 2z that was suited for mp5 ----- MK17 was as that, thats why didnt like it ----

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## Arsalan

Army research said:


> According to official documents it looks miles ahead


What official docs?
You dont know his "sources".
Are you aware that PAF is already operating Su35? ASK HIM.

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## Kompromat

Army would never leak its own documents. They are looking into it, I'm sure we'll see the smoke. 



balixd said:


> The leak could have been made on Pakistan side too, i don't understand why all the blame on CZ for this ----
> 
> the new lot is good, that comes in Blue box, no issues with that, however havnt fired it in numbers to make a conclusion
> as far as MK17 is concerned than MK17 was packing more or same as Chinese box........If you recall there used to be two variants of Pof 9mm 1z & 2z, 1z being a little lighter than the 2z that was suited for mp5 ----- MK17 was as that, thats why didnt like it ----

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## Army research

Arsalan said:


> What official docs?
> You dont know his "sources".
> Are you aware that PAF is already operating Su35? ASK HIM.


Sir I'm actually telling 'him' that according to the leaked CZ files CZ looks miles ahead, I'm not a victim of the scar fever

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## Path-Finder

balixd said:


> The leak could have been made on Pakistan side too, i don't understand why all the blame on CZ for this ----


I have always stated there is a personal grudge against CZ


----------



## Amaa'n

Horus said:


> Army would never leak its own documents. They are looking into it, I'm sure we'll see the smoke.


come on bro, you should know better , pics of the guns were leaked with in days of them reaching the concerned Unit, VT4 was captured very next day in range of sindh, the night Allah Nazar was killed & in morning we knew the details ------ who are we kidding

And for what I see it is just a Tender & CZ's response to it, nothing classified here

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## Zarvan

balixd said:


> come on bro, you should know better , pics of the guns were leaked with in days of them reaching the concerned Unit, VT4 was captured very next day in range of sindh, the night Allah Nazar was killed & in morning we knew the details ------ who are we kidding
> 
> And for what I see it is just a Tender & CZ's response to it, nothing classified here



Sir those are totally different things. The things Army wanted to be out are already out about Rifle trials which are mainly pictures although still we are not sure How many Rifles are were in trials and there names. Because after first winter trials were over some more rifles joined in including MPT-76 and few others


----------



## Kompromat

Hardware is hard to hide from the public eye, especially from the Army brats. Its either coincidental or done by mistake. Although, the documents are restricted and the parties are expected to respect the privacy of these documents. 



balixd said:


> come on bro, you should know better , pics of the guns were leaked with in days of them reaching the concerned Unit, VT4 was captured very next day in range of sindh, the night Allah Nazar was killed & in morning we knew the details ------ who are we kidding
> 
> And for what I see it is just a Tender & CZ's response to it, nothing classified here

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## Path-Finder

Very detailed and most importantly Unbiased!

Hazrat @Zarvan don't watch these video you will not agree with it!

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## Thorough Pro

Leaves a lot of black residue, cleaning nightmare after a shooting session. hard primers and pretty hot (2Z) to shoot from a handgun, should have used 1Z instead. but residue was horrible 



balixd said:


> Have you even use PoF ammo that you are questioning the ammo quality ?
> 
> 
> i remember there was a post of Horus where he gave details of CZ having jamming issues during the trail, any link to that post, i want to read that in detail ---- i believe the issue of CZ jamming during trails was due to ammo

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Very detailed and most importantly Unbiased!
> 
> Hazrat @Zarvan don't watch these video you will not agree with it!


















https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJOhOUNIZeI


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## Zarvan

Well SIG is also in competition according to some friends and I hope Pakistan selects two rifle series one SCAR and one other one to be produced and it may pass tests if Beretta and CZ have failed.


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## Awan68

Zarvan said:


> Well SIG is also in competition according to some friends and I hope Pakistan selects two rifle series one SCAR and one other one to be produced and it may pass tests if Beretta and CZ have failed.


You have done some serious services to the concept of optimism


----------



## Zarvan

Awan68 said:


> You have done some serious services to the concept of optimism


From tender itself it's clear Pakistan will produce two different Assault Rifle series and we have Police to equip also and the picture I posted of few Guns being tested most here think one AR style Rifle in that picture is SIG. And @Horus says Beretta and CZ both failed so I hope along with SCAR one other Rifle series is produced specially if we are getting permission to export them. We can sell to lot of countries in Africa and also Muslim World.

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## Awan68

Zarvan said:


> From tender itself it's clear Pakistan will produce two different Assault Rifle series and we have Police to equip also and the picture I posted of few Guns being tested most here think one AR style Rifle in that picture is SIG. And @Horus says Beretta and CZ both failed so I hope along with SCAR one other Rifle series is produced specially if we are getting permission to export them. We can sell to lot of countries in Africa and also Muslim World.


In fact that is an excellent idea in terms of increasing our defence exports, we can contacts several middleeastern n african countries n inquire about thier requirements, than establish an assembly line for a third gun even specifically targetting export, made in pof will be much cheaper than made in europe so many countries will definately go for it, the establishment of a export centric industry is the corner stone to progressing quickly in the in house r & d arena.....

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


>


I knew it!! Our Hazrat cannot handle any criticism of SCAR even if it is done in a professional manner! Hazrat you just posted videos of geezers who shot the rifle and made a video of it. I posted video of a geezer who has done his research!! Then he informed of the defects in the rifle as faced by operators in the field and it really lit your fuse. hahahahah



*Anyway as always SCAR was the best rifle in Trials *

@django @Hell hound have a look at this!

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## django

Path-Finder said:


> I knew it!! Our Hazrat cannot handle any criticism of SCAR even if it is done in a professional manner! Hazrat you just posted videos of geezers who shot the rifle and made a video of it. I posted video of a geezer who has done his research!! Then he informed of the defects in the rifle as faced by operators in the field and it really lit your fuse. hahahahah
> 
> 
> 
> *Anyway as always SCAR was the best rifle in Trials *
> 
> @django @Hell hound have a look at this!


Bro you are going to give him a heart condition,,, go easy on him, this is devastating news for the derwish.Kudos


Do you not know that.........SCAR was the best performing rifle in trials

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## Vazir

Zarvan said:


> From tender itself it's clear Pakistan will produce two different Assault Rifle series and we have Police to equip also and the picture I posted of few Guns being tested most here think one AR style Rifle in that picture is SIG. And @Horus says Beretta and CZ both failed so I hope along with SCAR one other Rifle series is produced specially if we are getting permission to export them. We can sell to lot of countries in Africa and also Muslim World.


We won't get an export license. The west does not allow their military technology to reach countries like China.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Vazir said:


> We won't get an export license. The west does not allow their military technology to reach countries like China.


These days the West has been letting technology reach China, e.g. the joint AVIC-Safran venture to develop the WZ16 turboshaft engine, CFM International LEAP powering the Comac C919 airliner, etc.

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## Zarvan

Vazir said:


> We won't get an export license. The west does not allow their military technology to reach countries like China.


We will and that is the main condition of our tender TOT along with permission to export them. Without them we are not going to buy the Rifle

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## Vazir

Zarvan said:


> We will and that is the main condition of our tender TOT along with permission to export them. Without them we are not going to buy the Rifle


That puts NATO rifles into question. But, hey, we could always have an understanding with them that we won't export it to China or other rival countries, no?


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## Zarvan

Vazir said:


> That puts NATO rifles into question. But, hey, we could always have an understanding with them that we won't export it to China or other rival countries, no?


Dude China if wants would buy directly from Belgium and other countries. China already uses Glock and other HandGuns and Assault Rifles made by West.


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## Inception-06

Zarvan said:


> Dude China if wants would buy directly from Belgium and other countries. China already uses Glock and other HandGuns and Assault Rifles made by West.



Which ?


----------



## Cool_Soldier

It is taking long time to be finalized


----------



## Ahmet Pasha

This is the thread that made me join PDF. I am no more a member of the silent majority XD. I have spectating this thread for an year now. Forgive me for the insubordination but Dear Mr.Zarvan you went from an sensible contributor of PDF to a joke. Im sorry but u gotta stop MAN imean cmon dude. 
As always
SCAR was the best performing rifle in trials hehe


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## Vazir

Zarvan said:


> Dude China if wants would buy directly from Belgium and other countries. China already uses Glock and other HandGuns and Assault Rifles made by West.


Nope. US and EU have an arms embargo on PRC. Pistols used by China include QSZ-92 and and Type 67. Assault rifles used by China include QBZ-03 and QBZ-95. Their equipment is either Russian or indigenously developed. Or what they develop from the remains of Western equipment. Bottom line: they don't buy from the West.


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## Zarvan

Ahmet Pasha said:


> This is the thread that made me join PDF. I am no more a member of the silent majority XD. I have spectating this thread for an year now. Forgive me for the insubordination but Dear Mr.Zarvan you went from an sensible contributor of PDF to a joke. Im sorry but u gotta stop MAN imean cmon dude.
> As always
> SCAR was the best performing rifle in trials hehe


If a Rifle performed best in trial what I am supposed to do here ? Lie about it ? It did great in trials and right now talks are taking place and we may hear about the winner a month or two after budget


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> If a Rifle performed best in trial what I am supposed to do here ? Lie about it ? It did great in trials and right now talks are taking place and we may hear about the winner a month or two after budget


Hazrat what you don't get is because ONLY you know of it we have no way of cross checking your claims to see if they are true. We are not so easily convinced especially when there is a open bias involved favouring darling SCAR.

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## Arsalan

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat what you don't get is because ONLY you know of it we have no way of cross checking your claims to see if they are true. We are not so easily convinced especially when there is a open bias involved favouring darling SCAR.


And when there are official accounts from various military forces suggesting otherwise. Anyway, i dont intent to go back into that old debate. Let the results be made public and i just hope the best rifle for our needs and future expansion is procured.


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## Path-Finder

Arsalan said:


> And when there are official accounts from various military forces suggesting otherwise. Anyway, i dont intent to go back into that old debate. Let the results be made public and i just hope the best rifle for our needs and future expansion is procured.



 well what fun this journey has been and as always.

SCAR was the best rifle in trials (to be taken with pinch of salt)

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## Arsalan

Path-Finder said:


> well what fun this journey has been and as always.
> 
> SCAR was the best rifle in trials (to be taken with pinch of salt)


nice addition, that pinch of salt i mean

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## Path-Finder

I know our Hazrat will explode when he watches this!


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## Super Falcon

HK 333 IS READY FOR EXPORT PAK SHOUL TRY IT TOO


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## Arsalan

Super Falcon said:


> HK 333 IS READY FOR EXPORT PAK SHOUL TRY IT TOO


As per reports they are not ready for export to Pakistan or any non-NATO country.


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## Amaa'n

picking up SCAR would be a mistake, they have to go with some other option.......SCAR was more like a benchmark to which other rifles were tested to, some failed some passed, that does not mean that the rifle is not good -----let the generals get their pockets filled up and we will see which one comes out as a winner

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## Zarvan

balixd said:


> picking up SCAR would be a mistake, they have to go with some other option.......SCAR was more like a benchmark to which other rifles were tested to, some failed some passed, that does not mean that the rifle is not good -----let the generals get their pockets filled up and we will see which one comes out as a winner


@Horus what you have to say about this ?


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## Kompromat

Its certainly one opinion. 



Zarvan said:


> @Horus what you have to say about this ?

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## Path-Finder

balixd said:


> picking up SCAR would be a mistake, they have to go with some other option.......SCAR was more like a benchmark to which other rifles were tested to, some failed some passed, that does not mean that the rifle is not good -----let the generals get their pockets filled up and we will see which one comes out as a winner



Oh dear! *Et tu*, *Balixd *

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## Fieldmarshal

balixd said:


> -----let the generals get their pockets filled up and we will see which one comes out as a winner


Those days r long gone...
RS started the process to truly cleanse the army n Bajwa has taken it further.
Plus now even the officers at the top have real combat experience where they have killed a few or a few have died along side them, n that makes a huge difference.
PA is no more a peace time army but a battle hardened army.

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## Zarvan

balixd said:


> picking up SCAR would be a mistake, they have to go with some other option.......SCAR was more like a benchmark to which other rifles were tested to, some failed some passed, that does not mean that the rifle is not good -----let the generals get their pockets filled up and we will see which one comes out as a winner


Sir if General would have been getting money than our POF Chief would have remained the same his change was due to the reason that some company was trying to get dirty during trials. RS has take steps and Bajwa is taking them further to clean Army of corruption and they are doing good. PAF is also starting the process of trials of former Military Officers.


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## Super Falcon

Guys don't play with zaarvan and scar for so.e extent Zarvan is right scar can give us option of smaller Scar assault scar and sniper scar


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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> Another proof that Scar was the best gun in trials!
> @Path-Finder


Wrong Thread I was going to post it in other thread


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## Path-Finder

Arsalan said:


> Another proof that Scar was the best gun in trials!
> @Path-Finder


What happend SCAR won?


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## Gryphon

*Targets for Next Year 2016-17*
Following are the targets of DGMP & its R&DEs for next year 2016-17:-

*IOP*

Establishment of TI Lab for undertaking project of assembly of TI Sights in
future.

Successful conduct of TI & Red Dot demonstration / Trials ex Belarus & Turkey.

IOP has made efforts through MoDP for joint production, joint sales & joint
marketing of T.I Systems with M/s BVPs ex Belarus & M/s Aselsan, Turkey.
Efforts are in hand to materialize various projects of mutual interest.

http://modp.gov.pk/modp/userfiles1/file/Year Book 2015-16 Part-II.pdf

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## Amaa'n

You guys need tostop firing heavy artillery from my shoulder, just to tease Zarvan 


Path-Finder said:


> What happend SCAR won?

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## Path-Finder

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> *Targets for Next Year 2016-17*
> Following are the targets of DGMP & its R&DEs for next year 2016-17:-
> 
> *IOP*
> 
> Establishment of TI Lab for undertaking project of assembly of TI Sights in
> future.
> 
> Successful conduct of TI & Red Dot demonstration / Trials ex Belarus & Turkey.
> 
> IOP has made efforts through MoDP for joint production, joint sales & joint
> marketing of T.I Systems with M/s BVPs ex Belarus & M/s Aselsan, Turkey.
> Efforts are in hand to materialize various projects of mutual interest.
> 
> http://modp.gov.pk/modp/userfiles1/file/Year Book 2015-16 Part-II.pdf



What is this saying?


----------



## batmannow

Ahmet Pasha said:


> This is the thread that made me join PDF. I am no more a member of the silent majority XD. I have spectating this thread for an year now. Forgive me for the insubordination but Dear Mr.Zarvan you went from an sensible contributor of PDF to a joke. Im sorry but u gotta stop MAN imean cmon dude.
> As always
> SCAR was the best performing rifle in trials hehe


It depends on how you veiw things yes on youtube SCAR. Looks born outa helll & it may be the best of best but , for PAKARMY its not a logical conclusion ?
Pakarmy needs a combat gun which can be avalible at times of war not just for showing off?


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## Gryphon

Path-Finder said:


> What is this saying?



According to MoDP, Institute of Optronics (Pakistan) has set target for FY 2016-17 to establish a TI Lab (thermal imaging lab) to assemble TI sights in the future. IOP wants to undertake joint production, joint sales & joint marketing of TI systems with Belvneshpromservice (Belarus) or Aselsan (Turkey).

TI & Red Dot sights offered by Belarus & Turkey will be trialed in FY 2016-17.


According to Belarus Digest,


> Pakistan is interested in electronic warfare technology and optical and optical-electronic devices.



@Arsalan @Horus @balixd @Ulla

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## Kompromat

This is good news. Also, whatever rifle is picked up will come with a sight of its own which will be built locally. FN is offering aimpoint, CZ is offering MEOPTA & Beretta is offering S&B. 



TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> According to MoDP, Institute of Optronics (Pakistan) has set target for FY 2016-17 to establish a TI Lab (thermal imaging lab) to assemble TI sights in the future. IOP wants to undertake joint production, joint sales & joint marketing of TI systems with Belvneshpromservice (Belarus) or Aselsan (Turkey).
> 
> TI & Red Dot sights offered by Belarus & Turkey will be trialed in FY 2016-17.
> 
> 
> According to Belarus Digest,
> 
> @Arsalan @Horus @balixd @Ulla

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## Path-Finder

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> According to MoDP, Institute of Optronics (Pakistan) has set target for FY 2016-17 to establish a TI Lab (thermal imaging lab) to assemble TI sights in the future. IOP wants to undertake joint production, joint sales & joint marketing of TI systems with Belvneshpromservice (Belarus) or Aselsan (Turkey).
> 
> TI & Red Dot sights offered by Belarus & Turkey will be trialed in FY 2016-17.
> 
> 
> According to Belarus Digest,
> 
> @Arsalan @Horus @balixd @Ulla



That is great IOP is a body under the military and There is PVT enterprise Shibli making thermal sights. As for Optics for Small arms I am not sure if Belarus offers top of the line optics in this field, Turkey maybe better option but let's see what conclusion is reached this year.

So there is rifles, optics, sidearms, grenade launchers, laser pointers and now TI is being looked at for 2016-17 trials and not Just rifles which we have spent 2 years bickering about 

http://belomo.by/en/catalog/optical-and-optoelectronic-products/teplovizery/tv_s-02

http://belomo.by/en/catalog/optical.../pricely_opticheskie_dlya-strelkovogo_orujiya

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## Path-Finder

EDIT; As it seems Belarus has been supplying Optics to Pakistan.

http://belomo.by/en/catalog/optical...ollimatornie_dlya_strelkovogo_orujiya/pk-01vi







So many pics of this sight attached to Type 56 can be seen!

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## Zarvan

Horus said:


> This is good news. Also, whatever rifle is picked up will come with a sight of its own which will be built locally. FN is offering aimpoint, CZ is offering MEOPTA & Beretta is offering S&B.


Pakistan should enter in joint collaboration with this company 
https://www.instagram.com/3e_eos/


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## Gryphon

Horus said:


> This is good news. Also, whatever rifle is picked up will come with a sight of its own which will be built locally. FN is offering aimpoint, CZ is offering MEOPTA & Beretta is offering S&B.



As all OEMs offered sights, why is IOP looking to buy from third party (Belarus or Turkey) ?

Also, take a look at the document below.








Path-Finder said:


> EDIT; As it seems Belarus has been supplying Optics to Pakistan.
> 
> http://belomo.by/en/catalog/optical...ollimatornie_dlya_strelkovogo_orujiya/pk-01vi
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So many pics of this sight attached to Type 56 can be seen!



Any pics ?

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## Path-Finder

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> As all OEMs offered sights, why is IOP looking to buy from third party (Belarus or Turkey) ?
> 
> Also, take a look at the document below.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Any pics ?


Plentiful of pics. Its the main sight used by PA and SSG. 

Few from the military multimedia thread 






























Realistically! Only CZ+Meopta & Beretta+Steiner are realistic because they are from same country or owned by the firearms maker. FN offering Aimpoint is not going to be plausible. FN neither own Aimpoint nor do they come from the same country!!

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## Fieldmarshal

Path-Finder said:


> That is great IOP is a body under the military and There is PVT enterprise Shibli making thermal sights. As for Optics for Small arms I am not sure if Belarus offers top of the line optics in this field, Turkey maybe better option but let's see what conclusion is reached this year.
> 
> So there is rifles, optics, sidearms, grenade launchers, laser pointers and now TI is being looked at for 2016-17 trials and not Just rifles which we have spent 2 years bickering about
> 
> http://belomo.by/en/catalog/optical-and-optoelectronic-products/teplovizery/tv_s-02
> 
> http://belomo.by/en/catalog/optical.../pricely_opticheskie_dlya-strelkovogo_orujiya


Shibli is nothing more than a fraud....they buy things off the shelf n just rebrand them n claim it as their own.....they have been found out n will be out of work soon.
IOP on the other hand is doing great work n have developed a few things which were costing PA an arm n a leg at a fraction of the price of wt others foreign firms were offering e.g. a certain seight was being offered for 5 million RS while IOP produced it for RS 5 lac ...mind u IOP PRODUCTS r of very high quality n PA is over joyed at their performance n the fact that they r being produced in house.


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## TaimiKhan

Fieldmarshal said:


> Shibli is nothing more than a fraud....they buy things off the shelf n just rebrand them n claim it as their own.....they have been found out n will be out of work soon.
> IOP on the other hand is doing great work n have developed a few things which were costing PA an arm n a leg at a fraction of the price of wt others foreign firms were offering e.g. a certain seight was being offered for 5 million RS while IOP produced it for RS 5 lac ...mind u IOP PRODUCTS r of very high quality n PA is over joyed at their performance n the fact that they r being produced in house.


Fighting at night or having such capability gives a great advantage. It can literally change face of a battle or even war. PA should give money and human resources plus infrastructure to IOP so that they make further devices and improve the quality. 

Check the latest colored night vision tech nd its awesome. Whoever has such tech will definitely win the war.

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## TaimiKhan

TaimiKhan said:


> Fighting at night or having such capability gives a great advantage. It can literally change face of a battle or even war. PA should give money and human resources plus infrastructure to IOP so that they make further devices and improve the quality.
> 
> Check the latest colored night vision tech nd its awesome. Whoever has such tech will definitely win the war.

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## saumyasupratik

Path-Finder said:


> Plentiful of pics. Its the main sight used by PA and SSG.
> 
> Few from the military multimedia thread
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Realistically! Only CZ+Meopta & Beretta+Steiner are realistic because they are from same country or owned by the firearms maker. FN offering Aimpoint is not going to be plausible. FN neither own Aimpoint nor do they come from the same country!!



Those are Aimpoint M68 CCO.

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## Arsalan

batmannow said:


> It depends on how you veiw things yes on youtube SCAR. Looks born outa helll & it may be the best of best but , for PAKARMY its not a logical conclusion ?
> Pakarmy needs a combat gun which can be avalible at times of war not just for showing off?


Whatever rifle we select we will get it wit full ToT and will be making thise at POF. No issues of availability in war time.



TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> As all OEMs offered sights, why is IOP looking to buy from third party (Belarus or Turkey) ?
> 
> Also, take a look at the document below.


VERY INTERESTING!!!
Which gun is the document refering to?
The results are good i must say.


----------



## Path-Finder

Fieldmarshal said:


> Shibli is nothing more than a fraud....they buy things off the shelf n just rebrand them n claim it as their own.....they have been found out n will be out of work soon.
> IOP on the other hand is doing great work n have developed a few things which were costing PA an arm n a leg at a fraction of the price of wt others foreign firms were offering e.g. a certain seight was being offered for 5 million RS while IOP produced it for RS 5 lac ...mind u IOP PRODUCTS r of very high quality n PA is over joyed at their performance n the fact that they r being produced in house.


Not sure what to say about Shibli. They are in a deal with Thales for making thermals.



saumyasupratik said:


> Those are Aimpoint M68 CCO.


That sight is a cheaper alternative to the aimpoint. Buying so many aimpoints would cost an arm and leg. So I beleive it's the Belarusian sight it looks like aimpoint clone.



Arsalan said:


> Whatever rifle we select we will get it wit full ToT and will be making thise at POF. No issues of availability in war time.
> 
> 
> VERY INTERESTING!!!
> Which gun is the document refering to?
> The results are good i must say.


I can give one clue it's not the rifle that performed best in trials.


----------



## Gryphon

Arsalan said:


> Whatever rifle we select we will get it wit full ToT and will be making thise at POF. No issues of availability in war time.
> 
> 
> VERY INTERESTING!!!
> Which gun is the document refering to?
> The results are good i must say.



Page 292.


----------



## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> Whatever rifle we select we will get it wit full ToT and will be making thise at POF. No issues of availability in war time.
> 
> 
> VERY INTERESTING!!!
> Which gun is the document refering to?
> The results are good i must say.


Pakistan should establish entire separate entity which works on developing optics and night vision and other sights for Armed Forces and civilian market.


----------



## Gryphon

Path-Finder said:


> Realistically! Only CZ+Meopta & Beretta+Steiner are realistic because they are from same country or owned by the firearms maker. FN offering Aimpoint is not going to be plausible. FN neither own Aimpoint nor do they come from the same country!!



I don't see the same. Only thing you need to mount optics is a Picatinny rail. Even third party sights will do good.

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## Path-Finder

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> I don't see the same. Only thing you need to mount optics is a Picatinny rail. Even third party sights will do good.



Check this out. A new Weapons mounted NV Sight. Seems to be a in house R&D effort!!

View attachment 398675


http://www.modp.gov.pk/modp/userfiles1/file/IOP.pdf

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## Kompromat

They are aimpoints.



Path-Finder said:


> Plentiful of pics. Its the main sight used by PA and SSG.
> 
> Few from the military multimedia thread
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Realistically! Only CZ+Meopta & Beretta+Steiner are realistic because they are from same country or owned by the firearms maker. FN offering Aimpoint is not going to be plausible. FN neither own Aimpoint nor do they come from the same country!!



Maybe for the Paramilitary? 



TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> As all OEMs offered sights, why is IOP looking to buy from third party (Belarus or Turkey) ?
> 
> Also, take a look at the document below.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Any pics ?


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

In the MoDP report it sounds as though a red-dot trial was done, but the IOP is moving ahead with thermal imaging only (i.e. in competition with Shibli). It seems that IOP is passing on reflexive/red-dot sights for now.

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## Gryphon

Horus said:


> Maybe for the Paramilitary?



IOP will not manufacture red dot sights for para-military only, it's main customers were always the armed forces.

The retail price of Meopta MeoRed is $500. Maybe, PA is looking at cheaper (but comparable) options. Hence, the entry of Turkey & Belarus into the trials.



Path-Finder said:


> Check this out. A new Weapons mounted NV Sight. Seems to be a in house R&D effort!!
> 
> View attachment 398675
> 
> 
> http://www.modp.gov.pk/modp/userfiles1/file/IOP.pdf



Not new. Saw this document years ago.

Red-dot (reflex) Sight offered by Belarusian Optical and Mechanical Association.

http://belomo.by/en/catalog/optical...imatornie_dlya_strelkovogo_orujiya/pricel_rsm


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## Arsalan

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Page 292.


Ok so you are referring to Page 292 of this thread. Got that post about CZ BERN now.
It will help if we can all be a bit more specific with our posts. 




TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> I don't see the same. Only thing you need to mount optics is a Picatinny rail. Even third party sights will do good.


I don’t think he is talking about compatibility issues but availability issues. What he was trying to say here was that CZ and Beretta either have their own companies making sights or some other company from their country making them so they can offer a combo. SCAR will have to loop in a third party so that might be a problem, like availability etc! However I do not agree with this either. The contract/order will be of so many sights and as it seems now, more likely to be accompanied by a ToT agreement, I do not think sourcing them will be a problem. In fact, I would even suggest that other than the three options these gun makers are going to offer as part of the deal Pakistan must look into OTHER options as well and choose the most suitable one (and I think this is what is happening as discussed in previous few posts)


----------



## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> Ok so you are referring to Page 292 of this thread. Got that post about CZ BERN now.
> It will help if we can all be a bit more specific with our posts.
> 
> 
> 
> I don’t think he is talking about compatibility issues but availability issues. What he was trying to say here was that CZ and Beretta either have their own companies making sights or some other company from their country making them so they can offer a combo. SCAR will have to loop in a third party so that might be a problem, like availability etc! However I do not agree with this either. The contract/order will be of so many sights and as it seems now, more likely to be accompanied by a ToT agreement, I do not think sourcing them will be a problem. In fact, I would even suggest that other than the three options these gun makers are going to offer as part of the deal Pakistan must look into OTHER options as well and choose the most suitable one (and I think this is what is happening as discussed in previous few posts)







*KESKIN 3-12 x 50*
*



*
*AVCI 1-4X





AVCI 1.5-6X





AVCI R1X-3E 















For Thermal Sights and Red Dot Optics and in fact all kind of Optics we should corporate with Turkish companies such as Aselsan and 3E EOS and there is one other Turkish company 
*

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## Gryphon

Arsalan said:


> I don’t think he is talking about compatibility issues but availability issues. What he was trying to say here was that CZ and Beretta either have their own companies making sights or some other company from their country making them so they can offer a combo. SCAR will have to loop in a third party so that might be a problem, like availability etc! However I do not agree with this either. The contract/order will be of so many sights and as it seems now, more likely to be accompanied by a ToT agreement, I do not think sourcing them will be a problem. In fact, I would even suggest that other than the three options these gun makers are going to offer as part of the deal Pakistan must look into OTHER options as well and choose the most suitable one (and I think this is what is happening as discussed in previous few posts)



The problem is.. sights offered by all three OEMs (or their partners) are expensive. Meopta is selling its MeoRed for $500 (retail). Even ToT (local assembly to be precise) is not going to reduce the cost much. Hence the need for cheaper but comparable third party options.

There is a reason red-dot sight trials (scheduled for FY 2016-17) coincide with PA's assault / battle rifle competition. If IOP is trialing a sight, there are high chances it plans to assemble the same. MoDP report only mentions Belarus & Turkey as participants (in the trials).

@Horus @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @JK!

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## Arsalan

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> The problem is.. sights offered by all three OEMs (or their partners) are expensive. Meopta is selling its MeoRed for $500 (retail). Even ToT (local assembly to be precise) is not going to reduce the cost much. Hence the need for cheaper but comparable third party options.
> 
> There is a reason red-dot sight trials (scheduled for FY 2016-17) coincide with PA's assault / battle rifle competition. If IOP is trialing a sight, there are high chances it plans to assemble the same. MoDP report only mentions Belarus & Turkey as participants (in the trials).
> 
> @Horus @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @JK!


YUP!
Thats why i said that even third party options should be looked at (and are being looked at as well). 


Arsalan said:


> In fact, I would even suggest that other than the three options these gun makers are going to offer as part of the deal Pakistan must look into OTHER options as well and choose the *most suitable *one (and I think this is what is happening as discussed in previous few posts)



We need to get the best bang for our buck! That is the way to do it. If the three rifle manufacturers are offering local assembly and tech for sight with there guns, YES, it must be considered and looked upon but this SHOULD NOT end the possibility of a third party JV for sights. If Turkey or Belarus can offer some comparable gadgets at better prices, WHY NOT!! Just go for them i would say.

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## Kompromat

The cost isn't the only consideration though. Army wants a reliable 'system'. For example Army can get ARX-200 with Aimpoint, a SCAR with MEOPTA or a CZ with Steiner or S&B. They aren't going to let the OEMs dictate which optics they should run. 



TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> The problem is.. sights offered by all three OEMs (or their partners) are expensive. Meopta is selling its MeoRed for $500 (retail). Even ToT (local assembly to be precise) is not going to reduce the cost much. Hence the need for cheaper but comparable third party options.
> 
> There is a reason red-dot sight trials (scheduled for FY 2016-17) coincide with PA's assault / battle rifle competition. If IOP is trialing a sight, there are high chances it plans to assemble the same. MoDP report only mentions Belarus & Turkey as participants (in the trials).
> 
> @Horus @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @JK!

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## Path-Finder

Horus said:


> They are aimpoints.


The Belarusian sight is a 100% clone of the aimpoint it looks and operates just like an aimpoint and the high cost of the aimpoints it would be extremely costly to equip the troops in large number.



TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Not new. Saw this document years ago.
> 
> Red-dot (reflex) Sight offered by Belarusian Optical and Mechanical Association.
> 
> http://belomo.by/en/catalog/optical...imatornie_dlya_strelkovogo_orujiya/pricel_rsm


That looks like a Aimpoint T micro. Maybe they have made these aimpoint clones for PA!


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## Zarvan

Horus said:


> The cost isn't the only consideration though. Army wants a reliable 'system'. For example Army can get ARX-200 with Aimpoint, a SCAR with MEOPTA or a CZ with Steiner or S&B. They aren't going to let the OEMs dictate which optics they should run.


Pakistan should consider Turkish Optics. They are of high class quality with massive range and easy to get with TOT.


----------



## Gryphon

Path-Finder said:


> The Belarusian sight is a 100% clone of the aimpoint it looks and operates just like an aimpoint and the high cost of the aimpoints it would be extremely costly to equip the troops in large number.



You mean sights in PA service currently are Belarus made Aimpoint clones ?



Horus said:


> The cost isn't the only consideration though. Army wants a reliable 'system'. For example Army can get ARX-200 with Aimpoint, a SCAR with MEOPTA or a CZ with Steiner or S&B. They aren't going to let the OEMs dictate which optics they should run.



Thats why I wrote 'cheaper but comparable third party options'.



Path-Finder said:


> That looks like a Aimpoint T micro. Maybe they have made these aimpoint clones for PA!



Aimpoint Micro T-1 does not appear similar to RS-M Red-dot (reflex) Sight Mini. Or I am missing something ?


----------



## Path-Finder

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> You mean sights in PA service currently are Belarus made Aimpoint clones ?
> 
> 
> 
> Thats why I wrote 'cheaper but comparable third party options'.
> 
> 
> 
> Aimpoint Micro T-1 does not appear similar to RS-M Red-dot (reflex) Sight Mini. Or I am missing something ?


No. I beleive it's the Belarusian sights. I cannot prove it but my intuition leads me to believe that. I cannot be the only one who see' s the resemblance between aimpoint and the Belarusian sight?

Aimpoint T2 maybe!

Seems to be on the path of a aimpoint t2!!! With subtle differences



Zarvan said:


> Pakistan should consider Turkish Optics. They are of high class quality with massive range and easy to get with TOT.


Hazrat it's not as simple as just get ToT. making optics is a very difficult process and requires huge amount of experience and expertise. Secondly who told you that Turkey will just hand you ToT?


----------



## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> No. I beleive it's the Belarusian sights. I cannot prove it but my intuition leads me to believe that. I cannot be the only one who see' s the resemblance between aimpoint and the Belarusian sight?
> 
> Aimpoint T2 maybe!
> 
> Seems to be on the path of a aimpoint t2!!! With subtle differences
> 
> 
> Hazrat it's not as simple as just get ToT. making optics is a very difficult process and requires huge amount of experience and expertise. Secondly who told you that Turkey will just hand you ToT?


Aselsan has established a plant for optics in Kazkastan. We have both Armed Forces and Police to equip so if go for there optics of even 3E EOS I think we can get them to establish there plants here in Pakistan and this way we can get our people trained also.


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## Randiana2012

SCAR was the best. Why it's not selected yet?


----------



## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Aselsan has established a plant for optics in Kazkastan. We have both Armed Forces and Police to equip so if go for there optics of even 3E EOS I think we can get them to establish there plants here in Pakistan and this way we can get our people trained also.


Hazrat
We are talking about IOP making optics. That Kazakhstan plant is Aselsan setting up shop just like Shibli is making Thales thermals in Pakistan. Secondly do you know the complexities in making optics.



Randiana2012 said:


> SCAR was the best. Why it's not selected yet?


 well our Hazrat said wait till budget and still no news. I gave him till June which is in 48hrs or less.


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## Randiana2012

Path-Finder said:


> well our Hazrat said wait till budget and still no news. I gave him till June which is in 48hrs or less.


This is a clear & cut case of Yahoodi saazish. We should sacrifice some black goats.


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## Zarvan

Randiana2012 said:


> SCAR was the best. Why it's not selected yet?


Talks are taking place with the company and now as Budget has been announced we can expect the announcement of deal soon.


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## Randiana2012

Zarvan said:


> Talks are taking place with the company and now as Budget has been announced we can expect the announcement of deal soon.


How soon? SCAR is Pakistan's Rafael?


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## Zarvan

Randiana2012 said:


> How soon? SCAR is Pakistan's Rafael?


Rife is a 50 year investment so things will take time but soon now.


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## Randiana2012

Zarvan said:


> Rife is a 50 year investment so things will take time but soon now.


In 50 years, present technology of rifles will obsolete.


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## Path-Finder

Randiana2012 said:


> In 50 years, present technology of rifles will obsolete.


in SCAR's case it's already obsolete. 

SCAR was the best rifle in trials

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## django

@Path-Finder Lots of Aimpoint were provided by the US military during the war on terror years. It is possible the regular military are using Belorussian clones yet the SSG will most probably be using the Aimpoint.Kudos

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## Path-Finder

django said:


> @Path-Finder Lots of Aimpoint were provided by the US military during the war on terror years. It is possible the regular military are using Belorussian clones yet the SSG will most probably be using the Aimpoint.Kudos


Indeed, I am only going by my intuition. I claim to have *NO* sources or network of whispers that tell me things be it paranormal or electronic based.

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## Gryphon

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat
> We are talking about IOP making optics. That Kazakhstan plant is Aselsan setting up shop just like Shibli is making Thales thermals in Pakistan. Secondly do you know the complexities in making optics.



Aselsan plant in Kazakhstan is a full production facility. The plant cost 44 million USD.

Shibli has partnership with Thales; it imports Thales products and sells them in Pakistan.

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## Army research

django said:


> @Path-Finder Lots of Aimpoint were provided by the US military during the war on terror years. It is possible the regular military are using Belorussian clones yet the SSG will most probably be using the Aimpoint.Kudos


I can confirm having been there and used them , SSG is using aimpoint on their type 56. It is a very good sight

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## Ahmet Pasha

Belarus and Pakistan have recently reached an agreement to enhance bilateral defence ties @Bilal Khan (Quwa) may have more to add


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## batmannow

Arsalan said:


> Whatever rifle we select we will get it wit full ToT and will be making thise at POF. No issues of availability in war time.
> 
> 
> VERY INTERESTING!!!
> Which gun is the document refering to?
> The results are good i must say.


that's easy to say then bieng happening in practical ! No western country would be doing this favour ?
All is left is turkey , china or maybe russia only these few countries will be willing to think about a joint venture like what you were aimming for


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## django

Army research said:


> I can confirm having been there and used them , *SSG is using aimpoint on their type 56*. It is a very good sight


Glad to hear that.Kudos

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## DESERT FIGHTER

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Aselsan plant in Kazakhstan is a full production facility. The plant cost 44 million USD.
> 
> Shibli has partnership with Thales; it imports Thales products and sells them in Pakistan.


Apart from being Thales partners, they also produce indigenous sights, the new Tarsier thermal day & night sights have been observed in service or trials with army.



django said:


> Glad to hear that.Kudos


Plenty of pics showing regulars with it too.

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## Awan68

TaimiKhan said:


> Fighting at night or having such capability gives a great advantage. It can literally change face of a battle or even war. PA should give money and human resources plus infrastructure to IOP so that they make further devices and improve the quality.
> 
> Check the latest colored night vision tech nd its awesome. Whoever has such tech will definitely win the war.


Lol, wth is up with swir.


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## Arsalan

batmannow said:


> that's easy to say then bieng happening in practical ! No western country would be doing this favour ?
> All is left is turkey , china or maybe russia only these few countries will be willing to think about a joint venture like what you were aimming for


Its business, not a favor!! 
The tender they are all so eagerly competing for had a main clause stating complete ToT, in-house manufacturing and authority and clearance to reexport Pakistan made guns. Do not worry about that part sir. We are way past that point now. 
We should understand that the world do not runs on favors!! It is all about mutual interest and common benefit. This is a deal worth millions, we are ready to pay for it and all these countries are eagerly participating in the trials.


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## batmannow

Arsalan said:


> Its business, not a favor!!
> The tender they are all so eagerly competing for had a main clause stating complete ToT, in-house manufacturing and authority and clearance to reexport Pakistan made guns. Do not worry about that part sir. We are way past that point now.
> We should understand that the world do not runs on favors!! It is all about mutual interest and common benefit. This is a deal worth millions, we are ready to pay for it and all these countries are eagerly participating in the trials.


The western countries they , don't wana do any bussines with pakistan specially in the fields of small weapons & bussines happens between bigger manufactureses countries & bigger markets seeking lot of weapons ?
Pakistan has sufficient small & medium size weapen manufacturing capability for westren powers like , germany , usa or france pakistan is not the best market to sell of their small weapons with TOT ?
Pakistan has few & limited choices in this regrud , tutkey or some eastern EU states or china & that's the full stop time has come for pakistanis to realize their usege & potential long term all weather partners for getting all kinds of weaponery it needs ?
Turkish modern riffiles are good to use & will last longer then super dupper western gadgets ?


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## Thunder.Storm

The FN Ballista is a sniper rifle developed by FN Herstal. The company states that the Ballista's design compares with the Remington MSR, the Armalite AR-30, and the Accuracy International AWM. The Remington MSR was selected as the winner of the PSR competition.Modern, modular, and multi-caliber, the Ballista




™ represents the future of precision rifle systems. Designed to deliver surgically precise fire, the rifle can be configured in less than two minutes to any of three available chamberings (.338 Lapua Mag., .300 Win. Mag., and .308 Win.). Featuring repeatable accuracy with all chamberings, the Ballista employs a high strength, vibration-isolated aluminum alloy receiver with a top-mounted MIL-STD-1913 rail. In addition, the rifle features multiple rail segments for the addition of accessories. Fluted barrels measure 26 inches, and the bores have polygonal rifling with a right-hand, constant twist rate. A fully adjustable trigger (for single or two-stage release between 3 and 5 pounds) and adaptable, ambidextrous folding stock allows the shooter to configure the rifle for enhanced performance.

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## Arsalan

batmannow said:


> The western countries they , don't wana do any bussines with pakistan specially in the fields of small weapons & bussines happens between bigger manufactureses countries & bigger markets seeking lot of weapons ?


Bro we issued a tender, THEY cane with the weapons they can offer. The list of weapon systems evaluated is know to you too so i am not sure why you say they do not want business with Pakistan. they are here because they want it!


As for Turkish and Chinese guns, they were not even in the competition!

Its a multi million dollar deal of non strategic weapons, all these companies are actively participating and pushing to get there gun selected.


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## Ahmet Pasha

Budget a gya rifle nai ai XD.


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## Zarvan

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Budget a gya rifle nai ai XD.


Rifle is 50 years investment and decision was expected after this budget. So news may come in Septepmer or August


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## Ahmet Pasha

Zarvan said:


> Rifle is 50 years investment and decision was expected after this budget. So news may come in Septepmer or August



Put that on a record and hit the repeat button.


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Rifle is 50 years investment and decision was expected after this budget. So news may come in Septepmer or August


Hazrat I gave you till June. Go and shoot your source's. And please come up with a better sentence than 50 year investment only you think rifle will be used for 50 years.

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat I gave you till June. Go and shoot your source's. And please come up with a better sentence than 50 year investment only you think rifle will be used for 50 years.


We started using G3 in 1967 and now it's 2017. Same will happen here yes laser and other kind of weapons are coming but Assault Rifles are not going anywhere for next several decades and yes it's 50 year investment. So things take time and my source is solid as hell. If you were expecting decision within 6 months than it's your problem that was never going to happen.


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> We started using G3 in 1967 and now it's 2017. Same will happen here yes laser and other kind of weapons are coming but Assault Rifles are not going anywhere for next several decades and yes it's 50 year investment. So things take time and my source is solid as hell. If you were expecting decision within 6 months than it's your problem that was never going to happen.


Hazrat Rifle technology was slow very slow even up until the last decade! With improvements in metallurgy and polymers the rifle we buy will max do 20 years. A new cartridge is being designed which is telescopic for example. so based on that rifle technology will not be like in the past where G3 is being used for 50 years.


----------



## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat Rifle technology was slow very slow even up until the last decade! With improvements in metallurgy and polymers the rifle we buy will max do 20 years. A new cartridge is being designed which is telescopic for example. so based on that rifle technology will not be like in the past where G3 is being used for 50 years.


No not happening we are not buying Rifle to use it only for next 20 years. We are buying Rifle to use for next 50 years. If it would have been 20 years we would have stick to G3.


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> No not happening we are not buying Rifle to use it only for next 20 years. We are buying Rifle to use for next 50 years. If it would have been 20 years we would have stick to G3.


 Hazrat I was talking about the speed of the rifle evolution because of improvements in technology. Before you had a rifle for 50 years because nothing else was available but not anymore things are moving rapidly.


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## muhammadali233

ARX 160 in x39,interesting.

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## Zarvan

muhammadali233 said:


> ARX 160 in x39,interesting.
> View attachment 400884


It is being used by SSU unit of Karachi Police for sometime now


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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> It is being used by SSU unit of Karachi Police for sometime now


they must be stupid as well for using a 5hitty rifle as this rather than the almighty SCAR. Just like those countries using the disposable rockets (the question you are yet to respond to)

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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> they must be stupid as well for using a 5hitty rifle as this rather than the almighty SCAR. Just like those countries using the disposable rockets (the question you are yet to respond to)


I don't why they use even Karachi SSU would have been using SCAR still I won't trust them because a force under Zardari I find it hard to trust them

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## Arsalan

h


Zarvan said:


> I don't why they use even Karachi SSU would have been using SCAR still I won't trust them because a force under Zardari I find it hard to trust them


mmm,,, obviously they cant be trusted!
How can you trust a guy using a rifle other than SCAR!


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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> h
> 
> mmm,,, obviously they cant be trusted!
> How can you trust a guy using a rifle other than SCAR!


Even if they use SCAR I won't trust them. A Force under Zardari I would never trust them


----------



## django

Zarvan said:


> yes laser and other kind of weapons are coming


 @Path-Finder It seems the good Hazrats love fest with the SCAR has all but gone, he is now talking phasers and plasma blasters

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> I don't why they use even Karachi SSU would have been using SCAR still I won't trust them because a force under Zardari I find it hard to trust them


How can you know they would have been using SCAR? Hazrat do you visualise that every trigger finger is in a SCAR trigger hole?


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> How can you know they would have been using SCAR? Hazrat do you visualise that every trigger finger is in a SCAR trigger hole?


I said if they have been using


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## Path-Finder

django said:


> @Path-Finder It seems the good Hazrats love fest with the SCAR has all but gone, he is now talking phasers and plasma blasters


First love is ALWAY's the most painful!

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## django

Path-Finder said:


> First love is ALWAY's the most painful!

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## Arsalan

Path-Finder said:


> First love is ALWAY's the most painful!


Only that its not the FIRST. 
You dont know about that Turkish gun?

Anyways, back to topic everyone.

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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> Only that its not the FIRST.
> You dont know about that Turkish gun?
> 
> Anyways, back to topic everyone.


Sir when you don't know things than please don't talk or at least bother to ask me. I supported MPT-76 because I didn't imagined Pakistan testing SCAR or even Berreta for that matter. I thought at maximum we could get our hands on that Gun. This is the only reason I supported this Rifle so please bother to ask.


----------



## Path-Finder

Arsalan said:


> Only that its not the FIRST.
> You dont know about that Turkish gun?
> 
> Anyways, back to topic everyone.


That was a passing fling! but love at first sight was the Belgian blonde.

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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> Sir when you don't know things than please don't talk or at least bother to ask me. I supported MPT-76 because I didn't imagined Pakistan testing SCAR or even Berreta for that matter. I thought at maximum we could get our hands on that Gun. This is the only reason I supported this Rifle so please bother to ask.


Ok so let me ask, why is it so that at time you were absolutely certain that:

MPT-76 deal have been signed and we are geeting these with ToT, remember your claims regarding your "sources" confirming this?
Why were you sure that MPT76 is the absolute best there ever can be in guns?
I didnt bothered to ask you because i did asked you a very simple thing regarding thise disposable rockets and you never answered, i thought you might not be in mood to answer this as well so why ask!!



Path-Finder said:


> That was a passing fling!


Then trust me when i say that you dont know about it.

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## muhammadali233

Why does the POF manufacture x54r round?For Dragonouv or some other DMR?
Isn't SVD and PSL retired ?


----------



## Hexciter

Hexciter said:


> BREAKING: US Army Releases RFI for New 7.62mm Interim Combat Service Rifle
> 
> The US Army’s Program Manager for Individual Weapons has issued a new Request for Information (RFI) to the industry for a new 7.62x51mm Interim Combat Service Rifle, which seeks to bring out the best battle rifles the market has to offer. The RFI, posted at FBO,gov, reads:
> 
> DESCRIPTION: This announcement constitutes an official Request for Information (RFI) for an Interim Combat Service Rifle (ICSR). The U.S. Army, Army Contracting Command – New Jersey at Picatinny Arsenal is conducting a market survey on behalf of Product Manager Individual Weapons to identify potential sources for a combat rifle system.
> This Request For Information (RFI) is for planning purposes only and should not be construed as a Request for Proposal or as an obligation on the part of the Government to acquire any services or hardware. Your response to this RFI will be treated as information only. No entitlement to payment of direct or indirect costs or charges by the Government will arise as a result of contractor submission of responses to this announcement or Government use of such information. No funds have been authorized, appropriated, or received for this effort. The information provided may be used by the Army in developing its Acquisition Strategy, Performance Work Statement and Performance Specification. Interested parties are responsible for adequately marking proprietary or competition sensitive information contained in their response. The Government does not intend to award a contract on the basis of this RFI or to otherwise pay for the information submitted in response to same. The information provided herein is subject to change and in no way binds the Government to pursue any course of action described herein. The U.S. Government is not obligated to notify respondents of the results of this survey.
> 
> Desired Attributes of Interim Combat Service Rifle:
> 
> • The rifle must be a Commercial Off The Shelf (COTS) system readily available for purchase today. Modified or customized systems are not being considered.
> • Caliber: 7.62x51mm
> • Available barrel lengths, to include 16 and 20 inch barrels, without muzzle device attached.
> • Muzzle device capable of or adaptable to auxiliary devices for:
> — Compensation of muzzle climb
> — Flash suppression
> — Sound Suppression
> • Fire Control: Safe, Semi-automatic, and fully automatic capable.
> • All controls (e.g. selector, charging handle) are ambidextrous and operable by left and right handed users
> • Capable of mounting a 1.25 inch wide military sling
> • Capable of accepting or mounting the following accessories.
> — Forward grip/bi-pod for the weapon
> — variable power optic
> • Detachable magazine with a minimum capacity of 20 rounds
> • Folding or collapsing buttstock adjustable to change the overall length of the weapon
> • Foldable backup iron sights calibrated/adjustable to a maximum of 600 meters range
> • Weight less than 12lb unloaded and without optic
> • Extended Forward Rail
> 
> Those looking to make a submission should follow the link to the FedBizOpps website for further information.
> 
> It seems that the current theory behind this switch lies with the US Army and Congress’s concern that current 5.56mm ammunition will be unable to penetrate hard ceramic body armors like the Army’s current ESAPI plates without switching to the larger 7.62mm round. While on the surface, this move seems to be logical, its legitimacy thins considerably when the situation is considered in detail. First, neither current 5.56mm nor 7.62mm ball ammunition (M855A1 and M80A1 EPRs) can penetrate ceramic armor at any combat distances, nor could any kind of hypothetical round that did not use a heavy metal. This means that for a 7.62mm rifle to be effective, it must fire not the current M80A1 round, but a tungsten-cored AP round such as M993 or the upcoming XM1158 ADVAP which almost certainly also has a tungsten core. What makes a switch to 7.62mm on this basis strange is that with tungsten-cored ammunition 5.56mm will also penetrate ceramic body armor out to 100-200 meters.
> 
> It would be incorrect to suggest that this solution in either caliber is “neat”. Rather, both are less than satisfying for a number of reasons, not the least of which is the extreme limited availability and high cost of tungsten material. Tungsten-cored ammunition is 4-5 times as expensive per round, and cannot be used in “industrial” quantities for large-scale economic war the way that normal ammunition can. Therefore, this solution – in either caliber – is problematic, and the question of what the right solution is if hard ceramic armors are expected to proliferate remains essentially unanswered, even with a 7.62mm ICSR.
> 
> All this raises the question: Is the armor issue simply an excuse for a larger-caliber infantry rifle? The suggestion that it might be draws attention to the very serious concerns I presented in my previous article about the ICSR effort. If the supposed benefits of the 7.62mm round in addressing a critical need to defeat next-generation body armor are more or less fiction, then what is so compelling about this move that a litany of major penalties to the rifleman’s effectiveness in both training and combat are deemed acceptable?
> 
> http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...-rfi-new-7-62mm-interim-combat-service-rifle/


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## PAR 5

Like I said EONS ago here, Pakistan Army rifle replacement project is officially DEAD in the water


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## Arsalan

PAR 5 said:


> Like I said EONS ago here, Pakistan Army rifle replacement project is officially DEAD in the water


You were wrong then
You are wrong now.

An announcement likely in coming weeks now.

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## Path-Finder

Arsalan said:


> You were wrong then
> You are wrong now.
> 
> An announcement likely in coming weeks now.


Do I detect the spirit of Hazrat speaking?

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## Arsalan

Path-Finder said:


> Do I detect the spirit of Hazrat speaking?


Have i quoted any "sources" ?

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## Path-Finder

Arsalan said:


> Have i quoted any "sources" ?


Not sources! But the telling of the timeline "few weeks" is a Hazrat thing. I have waited for June from Last year and no news!!


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## bananarepublic

is it me or is the army gonna do a stunt like when they selected G3s in the 60s i think and are gonna select SCAR......


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

bananarepublic said:


> is it me or is the army gonna do a stunt like when they selected G3s in the 60s i think and are gonna select SCAR......


Heard they liked M16 more. But it was relatively more complex (internal mechanism,required more maintenance) and expensive, so they settled for simpler,cost sffective G3s.

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## Gryphon

PAR 5 said:


> Like I said EONS ago here, Pakistan Army rifle replacement project is officially DEAD in the water



'Insider' is back again..

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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> Ok so let me ask, why is it so that at time you were absolutely certain that:
> 
> MPT-76 deal have been signed and we are geeting these with ToT, remember your claims regarding your "sources" confirming this?
> Why were you sure that MPT76 is the absolute best there ever can be in guns?
> I didnt bothered to ask you because i did asked you a very simple thing regarding thise disposable rockets and you never answered, i thought you might not be in mood to answer this as well so why ask!!
> 
> 
> Then trust me when i say that you dont know about it.


I never claimed we are going for MPT-76 with TOT I said that would be most likely candidate because I didn't thought that we would test Rifles like Berreta or SCAR or CZ. I thought only option for us was MPT-76. But when I saw the rifles and than contacted Army guys things changed. They went for trials after years of study and when they had made sure which ever Rifle they choose they can pay for it only than Trials were started. As for disposable rockets I stand by what I said if it has more rate of fire per minute I would choose it but if weapon like Carl Gaustav has more rate of fire or any other automatic weapon I would go for that.



PAR 5 said:


> Like I said EONS ago here, Pakistan Army rifle replacement project is officially DEAD in the water


Than why they are still talking to companies if it's dead ???? For GOD sake talks are taking place and you are saying it's dead


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## PAR 5

Arsalan said:


> You were wrong then
> You are wrong now.
> 
> *An announcement likely in coming weeks now.*



If ONLY I had a dollar for every time I heard that *statement* here!



TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> 'Insider' is back again..



Yes yes, we know *talks* are going *ON (and on and on and on and on ......)* and a *decision is expected within few weeks* since the last 14 months! Ho Hum!


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## Arsalan

PAR 5 said:


> If ONLY I had a dollar for every time I heard that *statement* here!
> 
> 
> 
> Yes yes, we know *talks* are going *ON (and on and on and on and on ......)* and a *decision is expected within few weeks* since the last 14 months! Ho Hum!


I will give you more if you can quote my post, a month or more old where I have said that it is coming in next few weeks!!



Zarvan said:


> I never claimed we are going for MPT-76 with TOT I said that would be most likely candidate because I didn't thought that we would test Rifles like Berreta or SCAR or CZ. I thought only option for us was MPT-76. But when I saw the rifles and than contacted Army guys things changed. They went for trials after years of study and when they had made sure which ever Rifle they choose they can pay for it only than Trials were started. As for disposable rockets I stand by what I said if it has more rate of fire per minute I would choose it but if weapon like Carl Gaustav has more rate of fire or any other automatic weapon I would go for that.


Zarvan i am in no mood to go back a few months to bring back all those posts regarding the Turkish gun but be sure that i can. It was just one of hundreds of times where you have back tracked after "things changing".

As for the rockets, i am sorry to say this but you are in no position to select or reject a system . My question never was about whether YOU will GO FOR IT or not . It was simply that if you think it is crap, do you think that you more than the dozens of countries investing millions of dollars in SIMILAR weapon systems? It is quite a simple question if you had the guts to answer it.


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## pzfz

a cancelled tender would be one of the most prudent actions that Pakmil will have taken in a while.

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## PAR 5

pzfz said:


> a cancelled tender would be one of the most prudent actions that Pakmil will have taken in a while.



The new rifle project has not yet reached the INVITATION TO TENDER stage through either DGDP or DGP (Army). It is currently under EVALUATION/ TEST/ TRIALS on NO-COST, NO-OBLIGATION basis stage. No final decision has been made other then 'SHERR AA RAHAA HAI' periodic announcements here on the forum by some experts. Main process of procurement has to be followed via official INVITATION TO TENDER with mention of specific quantities and services etc among the officially short listed contenders. Salman & Associates (local agents for FN) and Defense Technologies International or DTI (local agents for Beretta) are not too hopeful either of this happening anytime soon.

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## Path-Finder

Hazrat @Zarvan well it's June and you told me in December it will be selected in June. Well?

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat @Zarvan well it's June and you told me in December it will be selected in June. Well?


You will hear something really soon now


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## AMG_12

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat @Zarvan well it's June and you told me in December it will be selected in June. Well?


His source was using Internet Explorer.

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## mikaal

Game.Invade said:


> His source was using Internet Explorer.


No you got it wrong brother both zarvan and his source use nokia 3360 browser ; )

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> You will hear something really soon now


Hazrat since last year you have been saying it! 6 months till 2018 I hope you understand what I am saying.

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## ali_raza

bananarepublic said:


> is it me or is the army gonna do a stunt like when they selected G3s in the 60s i think and are gonna select SCAR......[/QUOTE
> 
> 
> DESERT FIGHTER said:
> 
> 
> 
> Heard they liked M16 more. But it was relatively more complex (internal mechanism,required more maintenance) and expensive, so they settled for simpler,cost sffective G3s.
> 
> 
> 
> plz tell more about that time and that tender
Click to expand...

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat since last year you have been saying it! 6 months till 2018 I hope you understand what I am saying.


Budget was being waited so now it would happen


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## Imran Khan

Zarvan said:


> Budget was being waited so now it would happen


SCAR bhai salam

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## Muhammad Omar

Decision on Attack Heli pending 
Decision on Rifle pending 
Decision on Al-Haider tank pending 
Decision on Light armored vehicle pending 
Al-Khalid 2 Pending


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## Sine Nomine

Imran Khan said:


> SCAR bhai salam


WTF SCAR is a piece of shit,how do you dared to call hazrat name after a Yahoodi product

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## Imran Khan

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> WTF SCAR is a piece of shit,how do you dared to call hazrat name after a Yahoodi product


so many words we use are JEW its not the matter . hazrat is now SCAR for us

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## Sine Nomine

Imran Khan said:


> so many words we use are JEW its not the matter . hazrat is now SCAR for us


But calling hazrat SCAR is pure Blasphemy


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## PAR 5

Muhammad Omar said:


> Decision on Attack Heli pending
> Decision on Rifle pending
> Decision on Al-Haider tank pending
> Decision on Light armored vehicle pending
> Al-Khalid 2 Pending



LOGO .... SHERR AA RAHAA HAI! SHER AA RAHA HAI!


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## Ahmet Pasha

Scar scar kardi mein apay scar hoi
Hazrat zarvan na akho koi

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## Arsalan

Muhammad Omar said:


> Decision on Attack Heli pending
> Decision on Rifle pending
> Decision on Al-Haider tank pending
> Decision on Light armored vehicle pending
> Al-Khalid 2 Pending


Money do matters as per some who claim "money is not an issue".
We dont get black gold flowing when we dig a hole in our lands!!

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## Muhammad Omar

Arsalan said:


> Money do matters as per some who claim "money is not an issue".
> We dont get black gold flowing when we dig a hole in our lands!!



Well we have Black Gold in KPK   50000 Barrels per day is production

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## Arsalan

Muhammad Omar said:


> Well we have Black Gold in KPK   50000 Barrels per day is production


That is fine but compare that to local consumption and then with Saudi production to get an idea of what i am saying.

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## Muhammad Omar

Arsalan said:


> That is fine but compare that to local consumption and then with Saudi production to get an idea of what i am saying.



Well Sir G money is not the issue... 

If money had been the issue Army would have not been testing so many thing for procurement 
Artillery 
Heli 
New Tank 
Armored Vehicle 
rifle 
Up gradation of Al-Khalid tank etc etc

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## Arsalan

Muhammad Omar said:


> Well Sir G money is not the issue...
> 
> If money had been the issue Army would have not been testing so many thing for procurement
> Artillery
> Heli
> New Tank
> Armored Vehicle
> rifle
> Up gradation of Al-Khalid tank etc etc


bahi jan if money was not an issue they would have called uncle sam, transferred 300 billion dollars and get all those goodies.
Money is an issue, even if we have 20 billion dollars (which we dony have) we will sepnd it based on what is the most urgent requirment. Things are looking bright for future, we are working on a large number of procureme t plans and will see good coming in years to come along with more and more local industry getting involved.


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## Muhammad Omar

Arsalan said:


> bahi jan if money was not an issue they would have called uncle sam, transferred 300 billion dollars and get all those goodies.
> Money is an issue, even if we have 20 billion dollars (which we dony have) we will sepnd it based on what is the most urgent requirment. Things are looking bright for future, we are working on a large number of procureme t plans and will see good coming in years to come along with more and more local industry getting involved.



Sir g Our Defence Budget is increasing every year currently it's $9.2 Billion we are not gonna pay everything in Advance like Saudi's did $110 Billion it'll take few years to pay for all these 

We will get all these in small batches


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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> bahi jan if money was not an issue they would have called uncle sam, transferred 300 billion dollars and get all those goodies.
> Money is an issue, even if we have 20 billion dollars (which we dony have) we will sepnd it based on what is the most urgent requirment. Things are looking bright for future, we are working on a large number of procureme t plans and will see good coming in years to come along with more and more local industry getting involved.


Things we are focused on we are procuring. Even this Rifle program is now expanded to every weapon I mean infantry weapon. From HandGuns to Sniper Guns to Machine Guns to Assault Rifles and Optics. I am also surprised How we are doing this in 9.2 Billion dollars but somehow we are doing it.

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## Army research

Zarvan said:


> Things we are focused on we are procuring. Even this Rifle program is now expanded to every weapon I mean infantry weapon. From HandGuns to Sniper Guns to Machine Guns to Assault Rifles and Optics. I am also surprised How we are doing this in 9.2 Billion dollars but somehow we are doing it.


By not Buying SCAR XD


----------



## Zarvan

Army research said:


> By not Buying SCAR XD


Mr talks are taking place and soon you would hear the news or see soldiers with there new Rifle. We are also looking for new Machine Gun and for that most like Minimi will come


----------



## Path-Finder

Army research said:


> By not Buying SCAR XD


I am amazed that after almost 2 years of speculation and hidden source's you have not realised. 


SCAR was the best rifle in trials. 
SCAR was the best in -50 to +60
SCAR performed best in all terrain
SCAR did not exploded.
SCAR manules have been handed out to personal. 
SCAR even performed best when soldiers fired blind folded.
SCAR was the best at performing first aid for injured personal.
SCAR was the best rifle in trials in trials.

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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> Things we are focused on we are procuring. Even this Rifle program is now expanded to every weapon I mean infantry weapon. From HandGuns to Sniper Guns to Machine Guns to Assault Rifles and Optics. I am also surprised How we are doing this in 9.2 Billion dollars but somehow we are doing it.


Its not being done in one year. Everything is progressing step by step and is pretty obvious if you want to see it.


----------



## fitpOsitive

Zarvan said:


> most like Minimi will come


Perhaps the best I think. But dont you think MG3 is good, while we are manufacturing it, and it is also war proven?


----------



## Arsalan

fitpOsitive said:


> Perhaps the best I think. But dont you think MG3 is good, while we are manufacturing it, and it is also war proven?


MG3 is a general purpose machine gun, realtively heavy at 10.5 kg appx
FN Minimi is a light weight squad machine gun at around 6.5 kg.
Different uses.

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## Army research

Path-Finder said:


> I am amazed that after almost 2 years of speculation and hidden source's you have not realised.
> 
> 
> SCAR was the best rifle in trials.
> SCAR was the best in -50 to +60
> SCAR performed best in all terrain
> SCAR did not exploded.
> SCAR manules have been handed out to personal.
> SCAR even performed best when soldiers fired blind folded.
> SCAR was the best at performing first aid for injured personal.
> SCAR was the best rifle in trials in trials.


Forgive my blasphemy


----------



## Thunder.Storm

Congratulations @Zarvan


----------



## Path-Finder

Thunder.Storm said:


> Congratulations @Zarvan


SCAR won?


----------



## Saquib

Any update on the selection yet? Is it Bren 806? or are they still testing?


----------



## Zarvan

Thunder.Storm said:


> Congratulations @Zarvan


For what or just taunting me


----------



## Thunder.Storm

Zarvan said:


> For what or just taunting me


No pak won the match.

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## Kompromat

Stick to the topic and stop taunting Zarvan. 



Path-Finder said:


> SCAR won?


----------



## django

Thunder.Storm said:


> No pak won the match.


----------



## Path-Finder

Horus said:


> Stick to the topic and stop taunting Zarvan.


I didn't taunt zarvan. Relax.


----------



## Divergent

Path-Finder said:


> I didn't taunt zarvan. Relax.



Lmao


----------



## Path-Finder

Divergent1 said:


> Lmao


Which rifle do you like? 

FN SCAR
Beretta ARX-200
CZ BREN


----------



## Divergent

Path-Finder said:


> Which rifle do you like?
> 
> FN SCAR
> Beretta ARX-200
> CZ BREN



You did that on purpose lol

My knowledge on guns is zero


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## Path-Finder

Divergent1 said:


> You did that on purpose lol
> 
> My knowledge on guns is zero


You can form and give an opinion, which rifle will look good on the Jawan!


----------



## Divergent

Path-Finder said:


> You can form and give an opinion, which rifle will look good on the Jawan!



Which do you like? Maybe light weight and nothing too heavy


----------



## Path-Finder

Divergent1 said:


> Which do you like? Maybe light weight and nothing too heavy


No, my like and dislike aside. Which do you think looks like a good match for the jawan. If I mention my like then there will be a mealt down.


----------



## Ahmet Pasha

Path-Finder said:


> No, my like and dislike aside. Which do you think looks like a good match for the jawan. If I mention my like then there will be a mealt down.



Romance in a defence forum 
This is a first for me.

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## Divergent

Path-Finder said:


> No, my like and dislike aside. Which do you think looks like a good match for the jawan. If I mention my like then there will be a mealt down.



SCAR. I choose SCAR. Yep. Happy with that. Comment got deleted (don't know why since its answering the question) lol

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## Super Falcon

MPT 76 is a good reliable gun i just had tried the gun and scar should be bought for special forces


----------



## Arsalan

Super Falcon said:


> MPT 76 is a good reliable gun i just had tried the gun and scar should be bought for special forces


Better choices are available that will give much better export prospects.


----------



## Zarvan

Super Falcon said:


> MPT 76 is a good reliable gun i just had tried the gun and scar should be bought for special forces


SCAR should come for all Armed Forces but Pakistan should produce MPT 76 if it passes tests. It failed the summer trials but Turkey said it would resolve the issue and is asking Pakistan to retest it so Pakistan should do it and if it passes tests also produce it. We can give it to our Police Force. They already use G3 and Type 56


----------



## Super Falcon

Zarvan said:


> SCAR should come for all Armed Forces but Pakistan should produce MPT 76 if it passes tests. It failed the summer trials but Turkey said it would resolve the issue and is asking Pakistan to retest it so Pakistan should do it and if it passes tests also produce it. We can give it to our Police Force. They already use G3 and Type 56




What about AK 103 and my friend teseted latest AK 107 it is damn good with no recoil at all



Arsalan said:


> Better choices are available that will give much better export prospects.


Any gun Pak pick can have greater prospects


----------



## Zarvan

Super Falcon said:


> What about AK 103 and my friend teseted latest AK 107 it is damn good with no recoil at all
> 
> 
> Any gun Pak pick can have greater prospects


AK-103 was better in trials than CZ 806 BREN but AK is not ready to give TOT that is the main issue. And for reminder AK-103 is part of separate tender and SCAR is part of separate 
@Horus


----------



## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> AK-103 was better in trials than CZ 806 BREN but AK is not ready to give TOT that is the main issue. And for reminder AK-103 is part of separate tender and SCAR is part of separate
> @Horus



Can you back that claim up Hazrat? With another source apart from horus??


----------



## LegitimateIdiot

HOLY CRAP IT'S BEEN A LONG TIME EVER SINCE I WAS ON THIS THREAD COULD SOMEONE FILL ME IN

I don't no why but in all the time i have been on this thread i have never seen the mentioning of Russia's new Rifles which are really modern and cost effective as goes with any other kalashnikov based weapon .

Just look at this video





OOOOH and this one too


----------



## Arsalan

Super Falcon said:


> Any gun Pak pick can have greater prospects


That is an additional advantage. However the better the start the further you will go. 
Invest in a better options and you are bound to go a mile further compared to investing in a relatively not that good options. It is pure math.

10+*10*=20
50+*10*=60


----------



## Ahmet Pasha

Guys i feel that this plan may really have been shelved :'(

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## Zarvan

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Guys i feel that this plan may really have been shelved :'(


It's not things were going to take time. We assumed it would be within a year but it was going to take some time


----------



## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> It's not things were going to take time. We assumed it would be within a year but it was going to take some time


chalo ji. Hazrat


----------



## Thunder.Storm

Best then any ak's

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## Super Falcon

Thunder.Storm said:


> Best then any ak's


Exactly no need to have tot for AK 107 we should get them in numbers and scar also and one new SMG like scorpion can do wonders


----------



## Thunder.Storm

@Super Falcon @Zarvan


----------



## PAR 5

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Guys i feel that this plan may really have been shelved :'(



I said that eons ago on this thread but a few still insist otherwise. The procurement of rifles is indeed shelved for now.


----------



## Zarvan

PAR 5 said:


> I said that eons ago on this thread but a few still insist otherwise. The procurement of rifles is indeed shelved for now.


If it's shelved than why Pakistani Army leadership is in talks with two companies ???????? @PAR 5


----------



## That Guy

PAR 5 said:


> I said that eons ago on this thread but a few still insist otherwise. The procurement of rifles is indeed shelved for now.


No, it isn't. The process of obtaining a brand new standard rifle can take years, simply because the order is both huge, and a lot needs to be prepared before hand, before the rifles can make their way into the armed forces. Not to mention, a new rifle can literally change the way an army fights its wars.

The replacement program isn't shelved, the process is simply a long one, as Pakistan needs literally millions of new rifles.

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## Awan68

That Guy said:


> No, it isn't. The process of obtaining a brand new standard rifle can take years, simply because the order is both huge, and a lot needs to be prepared before hand, before the rifles can make their way into the armed forces. Not to mention, a new rifle can literally change the way an army fights its wars.
> 
> The replacement program isn't shelved, the process is simply a long one, as Pakistan needs literally millions of new rifles.


Sir, what are the basic changes a new rifle brings to the fighting doctrine and onfield tactics of a fighting force?


----------



## Zarvan

Awan68 said:


> Sir, what are the basic changes a new rifle brings to the fighting doctrine and onfield tactics of a fighting force?


You have new Gun you have to make sure your soldiers know about the Gun its pros and cons and you have to replace old and bring new rifles to your training centers a massive process


----------



## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> If it's shelved than why Pakistani Army leadership is in talks with two companies ???????? @PAR 5


Which two companies. FN will be one of those knowing you, which is the other?


----------



## Thunder.Storm

Path-Finder said:


> Which two companies. FN will be one of those knowing you, which is the other?


I think Italian one.


----------



## Path-Finder

Thunder.Storm said:


> I think Italian one.


oooh. Beretta&FN x51 and there is only one CZ x39. Are you sure it is not FN


----------



## LegitimateIdiot

Thunder.Storm said:


> Best then any ak's


give me props


----------



## Ahmet Pasha

Prospects of CZ BREN 2 in that case seem bright to me


----------



## Zarvan

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Prospects of CZ BREN 2 in that case seem bright to me


They are not. It had serious failures during trials


----------



## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> You have new Gun you have to make sure your soldiers know about the Gun its pros and cons and you have to replace old and bring new rifles to your training centers a massive process


Zarvan he was asking about fighting doctrine and on field tactics that might change with a new gun and you are talking about what? 
WHAT, IF ANY, WILL BE THE CHANGE IN OUR FIGHTING DOCTRINE WITH THIS NEW GUN was his question. 


Awan68 said:


> Sir, what are the basic changes a new rifle brings to the *fighting doctrine* and *onfield tactics* of a fighting force?





Ahmet Pasha said:


> Prospects of CZ BREN 2 in that case seem bright to me


That is how it stands as of now. 



Zarvan said:


> They are not. It had serious failures during trials


Some results from those trials were shared a while back on this thread. Check them.


----------



## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> Zarvan he was asking about fighting doctrine and on field tactics that might change with a new gun and you are talking about what?
> WHAT, IF ANY, WILL BE THE CHANGE IN OUR FIGHTING DOCTRINE WITH THIS NEW GUN was his question.
> 
> 
> 
> That is how it stands as of now.
> 
> 
> Some results from those trials were shared a while back on this thread. Check them.


The results shared by @Horus ?


----------



## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> The results shared by @Horus ?


The DOCUMENTS, tables and descriptions of some of the results of trials shared here on this thread. I do not remember who shared those but you can find them if you go back a few pages. They give a detailed account of the trials and the performance of gun in those trials, things like rounds fired, accuracy etc etc. Pretty impressive.


----------



## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> They are not. It had serious failures during trials


so who are the two gun companies PA is talking with?

Hazrat once again you only have Horus as a source and no other to back up your claim. Other members have whitewashed that claim of yours!!


----------



## Ahmet Pasha

What if Horus is Zarvan???


----------



## Awan68

Zarvan said:


> You have new Gun you have to make sure your soldiers know about the Gun its pros and cons and you have to replace old and bring new rifles to your training centers a massive process


Hazrat i meant the change in tactics not the process of integration

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## That Guy

Awan68 said:


> Sir, what are the basic changes a new rifle brings to the fighting doctrine and onfield tactics of a fighting force?


Depends on the rifle. If it is light weight, than soldiers will be able to carry more ammo. If it has a longer effective range, than soldiers may be able to fight at a safer, longer distance, than their enemy. If it is multi-caliber, well, that's self-explanatory.

It is one of the reasons why the US army tends to have an advantage against enemy soldiers with AKs, as the M16 has a longer effective range. The light weight nature of the M16 also gives the US army better control over the rifle, and allows soldiers to carry extra ammunition, or rations.

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## Super Falcon

After conversation with Ex military operative who have saw a kargill war war

He said pakistan must opt for light weight multi calliber Assault rifle and a Rifle which can be manufactured in different varients like Assault Rifle to sniper to compact assault rifle

I asked him why you need a multi calliber?

he said beauty of multi calliber rigle gives you more options according to situation if target and range and if you 7.62 Clip is over you can use 5.56 clip from any rifle or from enemy rifle or from a partner. 

I asked him why you need a ride with different varients?

He said it will be light on national budget and needs little training from switching from assault rifle to sniper varient for a common soldier

Than i asked him which current Assault Rifle do you think suits Pak army considering all prospects ?

He answered currently he seas three major contenders to replace Pak army Assault rifle on the bases of highly customization, long term investment, and different varients 

1. Adoptive Combat Rifle.
Which are going to replace major stockpile of US army M16 Rifles very reliable ACR and highly accurate customizable 

2. FN SCAR 
Due to its Accuracy and Robust nature it has got a respect all-around the globe and have different varients you can use any type of ammo

3. HK 416
he said you cannot get your hands on that gun easily but UAE bought it with some good international diplomacy nothing is impossible if your intent and will is right they make guns to sell and they will sell if you willing to pay some extra 

After all my own research i think Pak army should get license for FN SCAR H

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## Zarvan

Super Falcon said:


> After conversation with Ex military operative who have saw a kargill war war
> 
> He said pakistan must opt for light weight multi calliber Assault rifle and a Rifle which can be manufactured in different varients like Assault Rifle to sniper to compact assault rifle
> 
> I asked him why you need a multi calliber?
> 
> he said beauty of multi calliber rigle gives you more options according to situation if target and range and if you 7.62 Clip is over you can use 5.56 clip from any rifle or from enemy rifle or from a partner.
> 
> I asked him why you need a ride with different varients?
> 
> He said it will be light on national budget and needs little training from switching from assault rifle to sniper varient for a common soldier
> 
> Than i asked him which current Assault Rifle do you think suits Pak army considering all prospects ?
> 
> He answered currently he seas three major contenders to replace Pak army Assault rifle on the bases of highly customization, long term investment, and different varients
> 
> 1. Adoptive Combat Rifle.
> Which are going to replace major stockpile of US army M16 Rifles very reliable ACR and highly accurate customizable
> 
> 2. FN SCAR
> Due to its Accuracy and Robust nature it has got a respect all-around the globe and have different varients you can use any type of ammo
> 
> 3. HK 416
> he said you cannot get your hands on that gun easily but UAE bought it with some good international diplomacy nothing is impossible if your intent and will is right they make guns to sell and they will sell if you willing to pay some extra
> 
> After all my own research i think Pak army should get license for FN SCAR H


Exactly that is why SCAR H is the best it offers complete package and HK 416 sadly can't come because of Germany Policy and ACR hasn't even launched other calibers. It could have given SCAR H competition but don't know what went wrong. 
@Horus


----------



## Arsalan

Awan68 said:


> Hazrat i meant the change in tactics not the process of integration


Ap kay matlooba number sa jawab masool nahi ho raha!!  



Arsalan said:


> @Zarvan he was asking about fighting doctrine and on field tactics that might change with a new gun and you are talking about what?
> WHAT, IF ANY, WILL BE THE CHANGE IN OUR FIGHTING DOCTRINE WITH THIS NEW GUN was his question.

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## Path-Finder

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/877310925795098624

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/877371212686647296
Yani CZ rifle se itni takleef hai

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## Awan68

Arsalan said:


> Ap kay matlooba number sa jawab masool nahi ho raha!!


More like ap ka matlooba number kisi ke istemal men nhn



That Guy said:


> Depends on the rifle. If it is light weight, than soldiers will be able to carry more ammo. If it has a longer effective range, than soldiers may be able to fight at a safer, longer distance, than their enemy. If it is multi-caliber, well, that's self-explanatory.
> 
> It is one of the reasons why the US army tends to have an advantage against enemy soldiers with AKs, as the M16 has a longer effective range. The light weight nature of the M16 also gives the US army better control over the rifle, and allows soldiers to carry extra ammunition, or rations.


With the added confidence boost of fielding a compitent and reliable system, should do wonders to a soldiers mindset, thanks man, what i was looking for.

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/877310925795098624
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/877371212686647296
> Yani CZ rifle se itni takleef hai


I have no issue although it didn't performed well in trials but if POF can study and resolve the issue it faced in Pakistan and than produce it in Pakistan along with SCAR and may be also study Berreta and resolve its issues I would love to see that happen.



Super Falcon said:


> After conversation with Ex military operative who have saw a kargill war war
> 
> He said pakistan must opt for light weight multi calliber Assault rifle and a Rifle which can be manufactured in different varients like Assault Rifle to sniper to compact assault rifle
> 
> I asked him why you need a multi calliber?
> 
> he said beauty of multi calliber rigle gives you more options according to situation if target and range and if you 7.62 Clip is over you can use 5.56 clip from any rifle or from enemy rifle or from a partner.
> 
> I asked him why you need a ride with different varients?
> 
> He said it will be light on national budget and needs little training from switching from assault rifle to sniper varient for a common soldier
> 
> Than i asked him which current Assault Rifle do you think suits Pak army considering all prospects ?
> 
> He answered currently he seas three major contenders to replace Pak army Assault rifle on the bases of highly customization, long term investment, and different varients
> 
> 1. Adoptive Combat Rifle.
> Which are going to replace major stockpile of US army M16 Rifles very reliable ACR and highly accurate customizable
> 
> 2. FN SCAR
> Due to its Accuracy and Robust nature it has got a respect all-around the globe and have different varients you can use any type of ammo
> 
> 3. HK 416
> he said you cannot get your hands on that gun easily but UAE bought it with some good international diplomacy nothing is impossible if your intent and will is right they make guns to sell and they will sell if you willing to pay some extra
> 
> After all my own research i think Pak army should get license for FN SCAR H


@Path-Finder I think you need to read this


----------



## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> I have no issue although it didn't performed well in trials but if POF can study and resolve the issue it faced in Pakistan and than produce it in Pakistan along with SCAR and may be also study Berreta and resolve its issues I would love to see that happen.
> 
> 
> @Path-Finder I think you need to read this


Once again Hazrat can *YOU* bring any solid proof that it did not perform well in trials? Apart from Horus because other members have pointed out things that are completely opposite. More than one member has where you only have Horus to rely on?

Very simple if it had blown then why is it shortlisted for selection.

Again we have discussed it to death and I respect others opinions. If someone says SCAR is greatest creation in the universe that is their right But I do not agree with it. Many people do not agree with it.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Bren 2 seems to be in the league of Pak armed forces.


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## RAMPAGE

@*Path-Finder*

Listen, do you really think that no one can see what you've been trying to do for months on this thread? You have been shamelessly and incessantly trying to goad our simpleton @Zarvan into divulging the tidbits of gossip he manages to pick up. I really don't like to like to call people out in military sections but your behaviour is so pathetic that I have been forced to speak up in defence of someone I have much more reason to taunt than you do. Despite all his annoying posts and our differences, I have to say that he is a much better man than you have proved yourself to be. Shame on your for your lack of courtesy. You had no right to take such gross advantage of Zarvan's magnanimity.

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## Ahmet Pasha

RAMPAGE said:


> @*Path-Finder*
> 
> Listen, do you really think that no one can see what you've been trying to do for months on this thread? You have been shamelessly and incessantly trying to goad our simpleton @Zarvan into divulging the tidbits of gossip he manages to pick up. I really don't like to like to call people out in military sections but your behaviour is so pathetic that I have been forced to speak up in defence of someone I have much more reason to taunt than you do. Despite all his annoying posts and our differences, I have to say that he is a much better man than you have proved yourself to be. Shame on your for your lack of courtesy. You had no right to take such gross advantage of Zarvan's magnanimity.



Hoping that was sarcasm


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## Path-Finder

RAMPAGE said:


> @*Path-Finder*
> 
> Listen, do you really think that no one can see what you've been trying to do for months on this thread? You have been shamelessly and incessantly trying to goad our simpleton @Zarvan into divulging the tidbits of gossip he manages to pick up. I really don't like to like to call people out in military sections but your behaviour is so pathetic that I have been forced to speak up in defence of someone I have much more reason to taunt than you do. Despite all his annoying posts and our differences, I have to say that he is a much better man than you have proved yourself to be. Shame on your for your lack of courtesy. You had no right to take such gross advantage of Zarvan's magnanimity.



Well thanks for telling me my place. 

As always I am talabgar of maafi.


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## Zarvan



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## Muhammad Omar

Zarvan said:


>



That's how Army Personal gear should look

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## Arsalan

Muhammad Omar said:


> That's how Army Personal gear should look


Mian Sb London walay flat sale krny lagay han jo itna paisa aaraha ha??   
Ya koi sugar mill wagera? 

As always, PROCUREMENT ARE ALWAYS GOING TO BE DONE ON PRIORITY. The combat gear is something that have been looked at but there are some more pressing matters that need budget allocations.


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## Muhammad Omar

Arsalan said:


> Mian Sb London walay flat sale krny lagay han jo itna paisa aaraha ha??
> Ya koi sugar mill wagera?
> 
> As always, PROCUREMENT ARE ALWAYS GOING TO BE DONE ON PRIORITY. The combat gear is something that have been looked at but there are some more pressing matters that need budget allocations.



Mera Bas Chalay to MIan Sahab kya Zardari ka bhi sb beech k Army ko de don

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## ghazi52

Muhammad Omar said:


> Mera Bas Chalay to MIan Sahab kya Zardari ka bhi sb beech k Army ko de don



Well said.


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## Ahmet Pasha

GIGN 










Czech Army/SecOps













Balochistan Police/FC





Gen Raheel Sharif





Our Like it or Not PM






Hottie





Everyone is getting theirs. @Zarvan When are you getting yours??? 

P.S PM trying outdo the hottie with his pose D

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## Zarvan

Ahmet Pasha said:


> GIGN
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Czech Army/SecOps
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Balochistan Police/FC
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gen Raheel Sharif
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Our Like it or Not PM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hottie
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Everyone is getting theirs. @Zarvan When are you getting yours???
> 
> P.S PM trying outdo the hottie with his pose D



Sadly it had not very good performance at trials. That is why Baluchistan Police seem to have backed off from inducting it.


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## Ahmet Pasha

Zarvan said:


> Sadly it had not very good performance at trials. That is why Baluchistan Police seem to have backed off from inducting it.



Same seems to be the case for SCAR.

In fact, SCAR didnt even get to be featured in fancy photo sessions 

So the question stands When are you getting yours (Liam Neeson Voice)


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## Zarvan

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Same seems to be the case for SCAR.
> 
> In fact, SCAR didnt even get to be featured in fancy photo sessions
> 
> So the question stands When are you getting yours (Liam Neeson Voice)


SCAR passed all the tests. There is no need for fancy photos it should do the job and SCAR did the job brilliantly

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## Ahmet Pasha

Dude the kind of lobbying u r doing FN should setup a seperate factory for you


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## Zarvan

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Dude the kind of lobbying u r doing FN should setup a seperate factory for you


I am not doing any lobby this is what happened at the trials this is what soldiers told.


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## Arsalan

Muhammad Omar said:


> Mera Bas Chalay to MIan Sahab kya Zardari ka bhi sb beech k Army ko de don


N myra bs chly tu mein i dono ko he baich doon, 

wesay tu yeh already bikay huay he haan sb

Yeh bik gai ha gorment!!

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## Path-Finder

Arsalan said:


> N myra bs chly tu mein i dono ko he baich doon,


Lekin Kon khareede ga?



Zarvan said:


> I am not doing any lobby this is what happened at the trials this is what soldiers told.



SCAR was the best rifle in trials  (something we have been told a trillion times with


----------



## Arsalan

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Same seems to be the case for SCAR.
> 
> In fact, SCAR didnt even get to be featured in fancy photo sessions
> 
> So the question stands When are you getting yours (Liam Neeson Voice)


Both SCAR and CZ BERN were marked approved and the file is with the procurement section. Negotiations are regarding business deal now, performance wise its all settled already. One thing more is both of these will try to secure orders in both calibers and that is also taking some time.

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Sadly it had not very good performance at trials. That is why Baluchistan Police seem to have backed off from inducting it.



Will they induct SCAR?? Only SCAR was the best.



Arsalan said:


> Both SCAR and CZ BERN were marked approved and the file is with the procurement section. Negotiations are regarding business deal now, performance wise its all settled already. One thing more is both of these will try to secure orders in both calibers and that is also taking some time.


So IF performance was not to mark then it would not have been marked for negotiations???


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Will they induct SCAR?? Only SCAR was the best.
> 
> 
> So IF performance was not to mark then it would not have been marked for negotiations???


SCAR even when wins Pakistan Police won't get it. That is one major reason why I am suggesting Pakistan should produce more than one Rifle series. SCAR will be for all Armed Forces and Para Military but no Police. For Police we need one more series at least.


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## Ahmet Pasha

what happened to the Italian Stallion in this whole shbang?
The ARX-200


----------



## LegitimateIdiot

Arsalan said:


> Both SCAR and CZ BERN were marked approved and the file is with the procurement section. Negotiations are regarding business deal now, performance wise its all settled already. One thing more is both of these will try to secure orders in both calibers and that is also taking some time.


The cz has a lot of recoil though , even in 5.56 mm



Zarvan said:


> Sadly it had not very good performance at trials. That is why Baluchistan Police seem to have backed off from inducting it.


Zarvan i know how the ability to change calibers are important to you , their fore i suggest you to look over russia's new generation of ak rifles , the ak 12 more specifically have interchangeable barrels to allow for the use of multtiple calibers.


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## Path-Finder

Ahmet Pasha said:


> what happened to the Italian Stallion in this whole shbang?
> The ARX-200


they tried to bribe POF and They didn't bring enough Magazines for the trials. They were hugely inferior to FN SCAR!!

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## The Sandman

Path-Finder said:


> They didn't bring enough Magazines for the trials.


 wth


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## Path-Finder

The Sandman said:


> wth


This is not me saying! I must be crystal clear on it. Horus said this many pages back where he unveiled other details like that CZ exploded during the trial and they were caught changing parts of the gun and disqualified. which our Hazrat @Zarvan uses as a base to say CZ failed in trials. 

In conclusion; SCAR was the best rifle in Trials 

We cannot verify it so it is all we have to offer. (the Beretta bribing POF part was Hazrat @Zarvan and not Horus)


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## The Sandman

Path-Finder said:


> This is not me saying! I must be crystal clear on it. Horus said this many pages back where he unveiled other details like that CZ exploded during the trial and they were caught changing parts of the gun and disqualified. which our Hazrat @Zarvan uses as a base to say CZ failed in trials.
> 
> In conclusion; SCAR was the best rifle in Trials
> 
> We cannot verify it so it is all we have to offer. (the Beretta bribing POF part was Hazrat @Zarvan and not Horus)


After reading posts like these and if they're true (which i don't believe they're) i can only say Allah reham hi kare hmare rifle procurement program pe.


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## Path-Finder

The Sandman said:


> After reading posts like these and if they're true (which i don't believe they're) i can only say Allah reham hi kare hmare rifle procurement program pe.


 in layman's terms all other manufacturers are nincompoops and imbeciles where SCAR is the blue eyed Belgian blonde

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## The Sandman

Path-Finder said:


> in layman's terms all other manufacturers are nincompoops and imbeciles where SCAR is the blue eyed Belgian blonde


 nice way to sum it up for new comers on this thread

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## Ahmet Pasha

The Sandman said:


> nice way to sum it up for new comers on this thread



Been watching this thread since its inception hehe



Path-Finder said:


> in layman's terms all other manufacturers are nincompoops and imbeciles where SCAR is the blue eyed Belgian blonde



Apart from hazrat zarvan SCAR waley baba g basin

I was genuinely curious on a serious level what happened to the arx any news on the meaditerranean brynette?
@Path-Finder


----------



## Zarvan

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Been watching this thread since its inception hehe
> 
> 
> 
> Apart from hazrat zarvan SCAR waley baba g basin
> 
> I was genuinely curious on a serious level what happened to the arx any news on the meaditerranean brynette?
> @Path-Finder


ARX had accuracy issues and was a disaster in summer trials


----------



## LegitimateIdiot

Well then screw my efforts on posting things on this thread!!!!!!!


----------



## Zarvan

LegitimateIdiot said:


> The cz has a lot of recoil though , even in 5.56 mm
> 
> 
> Zarvan i know how the ability to change calibers are important to you , their fore i suggest you to look over russia's new generation of ak rifles , the ak 12 more specifically have interchangeable barrels to allow for the use of multtiple calibers.


Pakistan Army liked AK-103 but AK company is not agreeing to give TOT. We are looking for two Assault Rifles one to replace G3 other to replace Type 56


----------



## LegitimateIdiot

Zarvan said:


> ARX had accuracy issues and was a disaster in summer trials


Zarvan tell me why ar


Zarvan said:


> Pakistan Army liked AK-103 but AK company is not agreeing to give TOT. We are looking for two Assault Rifles one to replace G3 other to replace Type 56


ak 103 is mild as compared to the weapons i showed you in the post , why not negotiate on the new ak rifles


----------



## Zarvan

LegitimateIdiot said:


> Zarvan tell me why ar
> 
> ak 103 is mild as compared to the weapons i showed you in the post , why not negotiate on the new ak rifles


We should but if they are not ready to give TOT of AK103 I doubt they will give TOT of new ones. Secondly ARX failed the summer tests also mud totally failed the Rifle and in one trial there guy only brought two extra magazines.


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## Ahmet Pasha

Zarvan you keep posting same thin over n over n over n over n over n over.

Any body else have good credible news on berreta arx

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## Zarvan

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Zarvan you keep posting same thin over n over n over n over n over n over.


Because I can't change the results



Ahmet Pasha said:


> Zarvan you keep posting same thin over n over n over n over n over n over.
> 
> Any body else have good credible news on berreta arx


My source is credible as he'll you want to remain in denial your choice

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## LegitimateIdiot

Zarvan said:


> We should but if they are not ready to give TOT of AK103 I doubt they will give TOT of new ones. Secondly ARX failed the summer tests also mud totally failed the Rifle and in one trial there guy only brought two extra magazines.


it's worth a try


----------



## Zarvan

LegitimateIdiot said:


> it's worth a try


In my opinion not only this but Pakistan should also make serious effort to get HK416/417 with TOT and also HK 33 Both HK and SCAR being produced in Pakistan would be dream come true


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## LegitimateIdiot

Zarvan said:


> In my opinion not only this but Pakistan should also make serious effort to get HK416/417 with TOT and also HK 33 Both HK and SCAR being produced in Pakistan would be dream come true


I don't think the financial issue won't be major , since Kalashnikov based rifles are among the cheapest , and are still really effective.



Zarvan said:


> In my opinion not only this but Pakistan should also make serious effort to get HK416/417 with TOT and also HK 33 Both HK and SCAR being produced in Pakistan would be dream come true


Why not buy them from turkey who make their own hk 416 rifles


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## Zarvan

LegitimateIdiot said:


> I don't think the financial issue won't be major , since Kalashnikov based rifles are among the cheapest , and still has good effectiveness.
> 
> 
> Why not buy them from turkey who make their own hk 416 rifles


They don't and MPT 76 is not HK 417 not even close


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## LegitimateIdiot

Zarvan said:


> They don't and MPT 76 is not HK 417 not even close


Did you consider the AEK-971 as an option for pakistan

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## Arsalan

Path-Finder said:


> So IF performance was not to mark then it would not have been marked for negotiations???


Surely not!
When two guns are forwarded as "first priority" it means no difference remains between them. But dont even try to explain this.



Path-Finder said:


> Lekin Kon khareede ga?


@Tesky @Imad.Khan @Hamzay wagera hein na!

@notorious_eagle @Zibago



LegitimateIdiot said:


> The cz has a lot of recoil though , even in 5.56 mm


Hearing this for the second time now. Will see if i can get this verified and see how big of a problem that was found to be or can be.


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## Path-Finder

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Zarvan you keep posting same thin over n over n over n over n over n over.
> 
> Any body else have good credible news on berreta arx



Beretta ARX 200 is not available to civilians yet because its Military first. However the faults with FN SCAR H have been beautifully explained here, The problems with the SCAR H are NOT minute either. They are mega!!






This guy has done his reserch before he speaks.

as for the guy who said CZ has bad recoil well watch this.


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## Super Falcon

Pakistan should push for HK 416/417 Or AR 15 nothing less


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## Gryphon

Army is currently retesting two 7.62x51mm rifles (Sig Sauer SIG716, CZ 807) and also the Colt CM901. Winter tests were completed few months ago. Summer tests have started last month.

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## Path-Finder

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Army is currently retesting two 7.62x51mm rifles (Sig Sauer SIG716, CZ 807) and also the Colt CM901. Winter tests were completed few months ago. Summer tests have started last month.


A CZ in 7.62x51 and not 7.62x39? What about MPT76?

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## Arsalan

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Army is currently retesting two 7.62x51mm rifles (Sig Sauer SIG716, CZ 807) and also the Colt CM901. Winter tests were completed few months ago. Summer tests have started last month.


Can you please recheck regarding Colt. Its weight was a factor. SIG had the same issue but some weight reduction plan was talked about. Out of loop currently but if you can please check Colt in particular. That part i doubt a bit. CZ was known, we talked about it and mentioned that quite a few times here.

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## Ahmer Rana

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Army is currently retesting two 7.62x51mm rifles (Sig Sauer SIG716, CZ 807) and also the Colt CM901. Winter tests were completed few months ago. Summer tests have started last month.


Is SIG and Colt ready for tot


----------



## LegitimateIdiot

Path-Finder said:


> Beretta ARX 200 is not available to civilians yet because its Military first. However the faults with FN SCAR H have been beautifully explained here, The problems with the SCAR H are NOT minute either. They are mega!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This guy has done his reserch before he speaks.
> 
> as for the guy who said CZ has bad recoil well watch this.







The videos i have seen for the cz rifles , show different levels of recoil





Oh yeah and look at this fairly new cz bren 2 rifle


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## Ahmet Pasha

I personally feel that Bren will win because it seems they are willing to actually work with Army and provide their best. Others particularly FN seem to display a lackadaisical behavior. But thats just me.

Personally I am rooting for BREN to replace type 56.
But plz dnt consider me crazy BREN walay baba g lol

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## Arsalan

Ahmet Pasha said:


> I personally feel that Bren will win because it seems they are willing to actually work with Army and provide their best. Others particularly FN seem to display a lackadaisical behavior. But thats just me.


It is not just you, others have noticed this as well. Bern have been much more aggressivr in their approach. May be FN is a bit on back foot because of its gun failing with multiple users and getting complaints from various sources as reported.

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## Path-Finder

LegitimateIdiot said:


> The videos i have seen for the cz rifles , show different levels of recoil
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh yeah and look at this fairly new cz bren 2 rifle



7.62 will always have recoil. Even SCAR has recoil!

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## Ahmet Pasha

Path-Finder said:


> 7.62 will always have recoil. Even SCAR has recoil!



 Dont you know SCAR was the best performing rifle in trials

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## Gryphon

Path-Finder said:


> A CZ in 7.62x51 and not 7.62x39? What about MPT76?



Improved MPT-76 hasn't joined.



Arsalan said:


> Can you please recheck regarding Colt. Its weight was a factor. SIG had the same issue but some weight reduction plan was talked about. Out of loop currently but if you can please check Colt in particular. That part i doubt a bit. CZ was known, we talked about it and mentioned that quite a few times here.



Colt is verified, the reason I posted it here.



Ahmet Pasha said:


> I personally feel that Bren will win because it seems they are willing to actually work with Army and provide their best. Others particularly FN seem to display a lackadaisical behavior. But thats just me.
> 
> Personally I am rooting for BREN to replace type 56.
> But plz dnt consider me crazy BREN walay baba g lol



A 'few months' is what CZ was expecting when I last had a conversation with their official in April.

I believe they are talking about the 7.62x39mm CZ 807 only... 7.62x51mm is facing tests again, for reasons unknown.. with CZ, Sig & Colt participating.

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## Arsalan

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Colt is verified, the reason I posted it here.


Fine. This is interesting.
The problem at the beginning, or the let down was the weight in case of Colt (that is time when options were being "thought" about. SIG had same issues but there was a weight reduction project envisioned at SIG already but Colt comes as a surprise. 
What can possibly be the reason. We have a gun that performed well in the trials and we have a company that is almost final for x39 and were also going to offer a x51 solution (and they have now it seems) so why bring in two extras in the loop. 
Anyway, i just hope that the x39 deal is finalized now that we have done with the budget and all. Get the paper work in order and make it official. The x51 seems likely to take another few months now.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Interesting to note that the SiG-716 and Colt CM901 are both AR-based, could be a sign that the Army isn't entirely sure about jumping to an entirely new platform (vs. picking up a variant of the very common AR).

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## PAK Warrior18

@Zarvan what is the status of FN SCAR now and when Colt and SIG joins. i have been following this thread from quit a while when do colt and sig started trials


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## Zarvan

PAK Warrior18 said:


> @Zarvan what is the status of FN SCAR now and when Colt and SIG joins. i have been following this thread from quit a while when do colt and sig started trials


The news shared by @TheOccupiedKashmir is old news and SCAR is still there


----------



## LegitimateIdiot

Zarvan said:


> The news shared by @TheOccupiedKashmir is old news and SCAR is still there


What do you think about Turkey's MPT-76 Rifle


----------



## Zarvan

LegitimateIdiot said:


> What do you think about Turkey's MPT-76 Rifle


Turkey MPT 76 failed our summer trials but company said it would resolve the issue soon and would want Pakistan Army to test the Rifle again. In fact Turkey itself was not happy with the first batch of MPT 76 they got so Turkey itself has given the task to other Turkish company to produce MPT 76 and also make some changes in it.


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## Cool_Soldier

It is taking long long long time to finalize the contract.

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## LegitimateIdiot

Zarvan said:


> Turkey MPT 76 failed our summer trials but company said it would resolve the issue soon and would want Pakistan Army to test the Rifle again. In fact Turkey itself was not happy with the first batch of MPT 76 they got so Turkey itself has given the task to other Turkish company to produce MPT 76 and also make some changes in it.


It is a bit on the heavier side weighing in at 4.2 kg .


----------



## Zarvan

LegitimateIdiot said:


> It is a bit on the heavier side weighing in at 4.2 kg .


Yes it is


----------



## Gryphon

Arsalan said:


> What can possibly be the reason. We have a gun that performed well in the trials and we have a company that is almost final for x39 and were also going to offer a x51 solution (and they have now it seems) so why bring in two extras in the loop.
> Anyway, i just hope that the x39 deal is finalized now that we have done with the budget and all. Get the paper work in order and make it official. The x51 seems likely to take another few months now.



x51 will see a delay much longer than a few months.



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Interesting to note that the SiG-716 and Colt CM901 are both AR-based, could be a sign that the Army isn't entirely sure about jumping to an entirely new platform (vs. picking up a variant of the very common AR).



Colt USA joined winter trials in January. Sig has been around from mid 2016.

There is no word on the frontrunners from Belgium & Italy .

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## PAK Warrior18

@Zarvan @Horus What are remaining contenders in x51 and x39 catigory and why dont we ditch x39 and just go with one caliber


----------



## Path-Finder

Arsalan said:


> It is not just you, others have noticed this as well. Bern have been much more aggressivr in their approach. May be FN is a bit on back foot because of its gun failing with multiple users and getting complaints from various sources as reported.





Ahmet Pasha said:


> I personally feel that Bren will win because it seems they are willing to actually work with Army and provide their best. Others particularly FN seem to display a lackadaisical behavior. But thats just me.
> 
> Personally I am rooting for BREN to replace type 56.
> But plz dnt consider me crazy BREN walay baba g lol



Blasphemy against SCAR .

FN SCAR's final nail in the coffin will be when USSOCOM select HK417. When that happens then SCAR really needs to be reevaluated on all its merits. *IF* SCAR was the best rifle in trials, Then the people for whom it was created have moved away from it making this platform highly questionable. Passing the trials aint enough *IF* it passed the trials in the manner that we have been supposedly informed.



TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Improved MPT-76 hasn't joined.
> 
> 
> 
> Colt is verified, the reason I posted it here.
> 
> 
> 
> A 'few months' is what CZ was expecting when I last had a conversation with their official in April.
> 
> I believe they are talking about the 7.62x39mm CZ 807 only... 7.62x51mm is facing tests again, for reasons unknown.. with CZ, Sig & Colt participating.



From this one thing can be drawn, Like we had been told by the "sources" that one weapons maker has won in 7.62x51 is just hogwash. That means the playing field for 7.62x51 is open ended.

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## Arsalan

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> x51 will see a delay much longer than a few months.
> 
> 
> 
> Colt USA joined winter trials in January. Sig has been around from mid 2016.
> 
> There is no word on the frontrunners from Belgium & Italy .


It wont matter as long as the x39 is finalized soon now. 
x51 if you say that winter trials are done already and the summer are underway (that wont last beyond August/September either at MAX) so we should start hearing some updates on these in a few months i think.


----------



## khanasifm

If trials are not done than why cz and pof signed mou??


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## Path-Finder

khanasifm said:


> If trials are not done than why cz and pof signed mou??


CZ in 7.62x39 has been cleared 7.62x51 rifles are taking longer as it seems.

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## Gryphon

Path-Finder said:


> From this one thing can be drawn, Like we had been told by the "sources" that one weapons maker has won in 7.62x51 is just hogwash. That means the playing field for 7.62x51 is open ended.



Correct. New entrant Colt along with winter trials of CZ & Sig weapons indicate 7.62x51mm race is far from over.

MKEK could also join summer trials.



Arsalan said:


> It wont matter as long as the x39 is finalized soon now.
> x51 if you say that winter trials are done already and the summer are underway (that wont last beyond August/September either at MAX) so we should start hearing some updates on these in a few months i think.



x39 was the priority. The summer trials for Colt should be over by September.

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> CZ in 7.62x39 has been cleared 7.62x51 rifles are taking longer as it seems.


No rifle has been cleared. Talks and tests are both taking place


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> No rifle has been cleared. Talks and tests are both taking place


Cleared for negotiations Hazrat!!


----------



## Ahmet Pasha

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Improved MPT-76 hasn't joined.
> 
> 
> 
> Colt is verified, the reason I posted it here.
> 
> 
> 
> A 'few months' is what CZ was expecting when I last had a conversation with their official in April.
> 
> I believe they are talking about the 7.62x39mm CZ 807 only... 7.62x51mm is facing tests again, for reasons unknown.. with CZ, Sig & Colt participating.





Arsalan said:


> Fine. This is interesting.
> The problem at the beginning, or the let down was the weight in case of Colt (that is time when options were being "thought" about. SIG had same issues but there was a weight reduction project envisioned at SIG already but Colt comes as a surprise.
> What can possibly be the reason. We have a gun that performed well in the trials and we have a company that is almost final for x39 and were also going to offer a x51 solution (and they have now it seems) so why bring in two extras in the loop.
> Anyway, i just hope that the x39 deal is finalized now that we have done with the budget and all. Get the paper work in order and make it official. The x51 seems likely to take another few months now.



Guys so has the italian brunette the berreta arx 200 been completely dropped or the previous contenders for x51 are still there but army is now testing guns they didnt get to trial thoroughly??? Because I rather liked the duo of the czech babe and the italian brunette. 

@Path-Finder @Bilal Khan (Quwa)


----------



## Path-Finder

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Guys so has the italian brunette the berreta arx 200 been completely dropped or the previous contenders for x51 are still there but army is now testing guns they didnt get to trial thoroughly??? Because I rather liked the duo of the czech babe and the italian brunette.
> 
> @Path-Finder @Bilal Khan (Quwa)



Belgian blonde?  give her some attention as well. It's not her fault she has the looks but ain't wife material

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## Ahmet Pasha

Path-Finder said:


> Belgian blonde?  give her some attention as well. It's not her fault she has the looks but ain't wife material



She was the best rifle in trials, what more can we say to its beauty 



Path-Finder said:


> Belgian blonde?  give her some attention as well. It's not her fault she has the looks but ain't wife material



@Zarvan goes to sleep sees himself chasing a belgian blonde through green field singing pehla nasha pehla khumar.
Wakes up writes SCAR was the best rifle in trials on PDF

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## Path-Finder

Ahmet Pasha said:


> She was the best rifle in trials, what more can we say to its beauty
> 
> 
> 
> @Zarvan goes to sleep sees himself chasing a belgian blonde through green field singing pehla nasha pehla khumar.
> Wakes up writes SCAR was the best rifle in trials on PDF


Edit your post a little otherwise you will have to deal with Horus.

And be a little nice to Hazrat

SCAR was the best rifle in trials.

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## Gryphon

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Guys so has the italian brunette the berreta arx 200 been completely dropped or the previous contenders for x51 are still there but army is now testing guns they didnt get to trial thoroughly??? Because I rather liked the duo of the czech babe and the italian brunette.
> 
> @Path-Finder @Bilal Khan (Quwa)



Colt is the new entrant, Sig & CZ (7.62x51mm) joined the summer trials in mid 2016 & winter tests in late 2016.
FN & Beretta remain in the competition.

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## Path-Finder

Colt CM901 is actually a highly underrated gun. Plus it is multi calibre switching between 556 and x51.

http://www.colt.com/Catalog/Military/Products/Colt-Modular-Carbine-CM901

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## Gryphon

Path-Finder said:


> Colt CM901 is actually a highly underrated gun. Plus it is multi calibre switching between 556 and x51.
> 
> http://www.colt.com/Catalog/Military/Products/Colt-Modular-Carbine-CM901



A heavy weapon too, just like G3.


----------



## muhammadali233

Path-Finder said:


> Colt CM901 is actually a highly underrated gun. Plus it is multi calibre switching between 556 and x51.
> 
> http://www.colt.com/Catalog/Military/Products/Colt-Modular-Carbine-CM901


an AR platform, doesn't have side loading,weighs 2lb more than the scar,looks dated.

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## Path-Finder

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> A heavy weapon too, just like G3.


But is it better than G3? me thinks so!


muhammadali233 said:


> an AR platform, doesn't have side loading,weighs 2lb more than the scar,looks dated.



HK-417, MPT76, SIG716 are all based on the AR design of which we have tested MPT76 & SIG716 and now Colt CM901. AR platform just wont die.


----------



## Path-Finder

Explained the SCAR program very well. Something that will not go down well with the SCAR lovers.


----------



## Gryphon

Path-Finder said:


> But is it better than G3? me thinks so!
> 
> 
> HK-417, MPT76, SIG716 are all based on the AR design of which we have tested MPT76 & SIG716 and now Colt CM901. AR platform just wont die.



Obviously, it is.


----------



## Path-Finder

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Obviously, it is.


By the way have you read the description for the rifle I forgot to post it here but I won't now because it will not be liked by the lobby 

http://www.colt.com/Catalog/Military/Products/Colt-Modular-Carbine-CM901

the first line!!

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## Ahmet Pasha

Why didnt Pakistan trial a bullpup?
Also, guys what are the pros and cons of a bullpup over a conventional rifle?


----------



## Zarvan



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## Ahmet Pasha

Path-Finder said:


> By the way have you read the description for the rifle I forgot to post it here but I won't now because it will not be liked by the lobby
> 
> http://www.colt.com/Catalog/Military/Products/Colt-Modular-Carbine-CM901
> 
> the first line!!





Zarvan said:


>



Ishq nachaya thaya thaya


----------



## Zarvan

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Ishq nachaya thaya thaya


Friend has talked to SCAR guy here in Pakistan who came for the trials they are still leading according to him and also he was quite satisfied with the results.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Good for u bro enjoy


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## Gryphon

Meanwhile,


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/860542752559333378
http://slovacky.denik.cz/podnikani/...v-egypte-utocne-pusky-i-pistole-30160214.html






Path-Finder said:


> By the way have you read the description for the rifle I forgot to post it here but I won't now because it will not be liked by the lobby
> 
> http://www.colt.com/Catalog/Military/Products/Colt-Modular-Carbine-CM901
> 
> the first line!!



Colt wants to compete with SCAR.

Weight is almost same as HK417.

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## Path-Finder

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Meanwhile,
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/860542752559333378
> http://slovacky.denik.cz/podnikani/...v-egypte-utocne-pusky-i-pistole-30160214.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Colt wants to compete with SCAR.
> 
> Weight is almost same as HK417.



Interesting Egypt wants CZ as well, But it explodes under trial . and its not the best rifle in Trials

The Colt CM901 is part of The original SCAR program which FN won, explains it better in the video I posted above (post 4712)!

Interesting history This is what Colt submitted for the 556 SCAR trials and the CM901 took longer to finish but I bet is a better product then FN SCAR H.








TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Meanwhile,
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/860542752559333378
> http://slovacky.denik.cz/podnikani/...v-egypte-utocne-pusky-i-pistole-30160214.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Colt wants to compete with SCAR.
> 
> Weight is almost same as HK417.




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/860541983605088256
you forgot to post this

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## Zarvan

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Meanwhile,
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/860542752559333378
> http://slovacky.denik.cz/podnikani/...v-egypte-utocne-pusky-i-pistole-30160214.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Colt wants to compete with SCAR.
> 
> Weight is almost same as HK417.


But colt is not HK 417


----------



## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> But colt is not HK 417


Colt is an Excellent Alternative to HK417 Hazrat.


----------



## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Colt is an Excellent Alternative to HK417 Hazrat.


Good Gun but not even close to HK 417


----------



## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Good Gun but not even close to HK 417


Have you fired them both Hazrat? Before you polish the ego of HK417 they are both based on AR platform, lets not forget that one little piece of info here dear Hazrat!!


----------



## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Have you fired them both Hazrat? Before you polish the ego of HK417 they are both based on AR platform, lets not forget that one little piece of info here dear Hazrat!!


I know they are both AR based Rifles that doesn't mean all AR based Rifles have same performance no they don't COLT 901 is good Gun but still not a match to HK 417.


----------



## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> I know they are both AR based Rifles that doesn't mean all AR based Rifles have same performance no they don't COLT 901 is good Gun but still not a match to HK 417.


Hazrat do you have any stats to compare them with? You know this was was part of the original SCAR trials which Colt kept working on even after it ended?

So there is no comparison available but you have reached a conclusion all on your own! Since HK ain't coming to Pakistan I suggest you drop the idea of HK417. 

@Arsalan we have a situation here!!

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## LegitimateIdiot

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Why didnt Pakistan trial a bullpup?
> Also, guys what are the pros and cons of a bullpup over a conventional rifle?


i asked the question , way back in the olden days of this thread , and someone replied to me saying the army doesn't like bullbups


----------



## Arsalan

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat do you have any stats to compare them with? You know this was was part of the original SCAR trials which Colt kept working on even after it ended?
> 
> So there is no comparison available but you have reached a conclusion all on your own! Since HK ain't coming to Pakistan I suggest you drop the idea of HK417.
> 
> @Arsalan we have a situation here!!


NO USE!

I just hope the announcement regarding x39 is made in next couple of months and that the x51 is finalized later this year or may be next since more guns are being evaluated now (for a tender that was already supposedly WON by a certain gun i wont dare to name)

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## Path-Finder

Arsalan said:


> NO USE!
> 
> I just hope the announcement regarding x39 is made in next couple of months and that the x51 is finalized later this year or may be next since more guns are being evaluated now (for a tender that was already supposedly WON by a certain gun i wont dare to name)


Absolutely There is no other option better in x39 than CZ which is now being considered by Egypt as well. As for x51 well the fairy tales we were fed have turned out to be mere tabloid. More guns coming into trials is a open indication that FN SCAR has not won anything . There I named it! Interestingly new Colt rifle can be called Colt SCAR H 



Zarvan said:


> I know they are both AR based Rifles that doesn't mean all AR based Rifles have same performance no they don't COLT 901 is good Gun but still not a match to HK 417.


Hazrat you should reach out to the Egyptians and tell them about CZ failing in trials


----------



## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Absolutely There is no other option better in x39 than CZ which is now being considered by Egypt as well. As for x51 well the fairy tales we were fed have turned out to be mere tabloid. More guns coming into trials is a open indication that FN SCAR has not won anything . There I named it! Interestingly new Colt rifle can be called Colt SCAR H
> 
> 
> Hazrat you should reach out to the Egyptians and tell them about CZ failing in trials


SCAR has performed best in trials secondly x 39 no there are other options as well and AK-103 was better and hopefully some talks can take place with Russia. Now you want to act like 4 year old child which you have been doing for past few pages I can do nothing about it. COLT 901 became part of trials last year I checked yesterday not this year. Colt and SIG all came together.



Path-Finder said:


> Absolutely There is no other option better in x39 than CZ which is now being considered by Egypt as well. As for x51 well the fairy tales we were fed have turned out to be mere tabloid. More guns coming into trials is a open indication that FN SCAR has not won anything . There I named it! Interestingly new Colt rifle can be called Colt SCAR H
> 
> 
> Hazrat you should reach out to the Egyptians and tell them about CZ failing in trials


There are no further news on CZ I have checked with other Egyptians who are Military Analysts and they doubt the news


----------



## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> SCAR has performed best in trials secondly x 39 no there are other options as well and AK-103 was better and hopefully some talks can take place with Russia. Now you want to act like 4 year old child which you have been doing for past few pages I can do nothing about it. COLT 901 became part of trials last year I checked yesterday not this year. Colt and SIG all came together.
> 
> 
> There are no further news on CZ I have checked with other Egyptians who are Military Analysts and they doubt the news


Once again Hazrat bring the proof!! You accuse me of being childish yet I don't make tall claims and then go quite. Because there is no answer.

Unless I am wrong it is you who declared FN SCAR won and manules have been given to the troops. You personally told me in December to wait till June which finishes tomorrow, on this very thread!!! Among many other claims that have NO way of verifying.

If FN SCAR was the best rifle in trials. Then more rifles come into it this expanding trials can only mean that your source's were hogwash. Sorry but I would rather beleive @TheOccupiedKashmir as he is more solid in his info than you are. 

Doesn't take much IQ or half a brain to understand that so called "best in trials" is just a load of bull. 


As for Egypt they are using CZ pistols and Scorpion SMG so I wouldn't be surprised if CZ 807 is chosen. Please tell us about the analyst you asked. Surely you don't have hidden informants in Egypt?


----------



## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Once again Hazrat bring the proof!! You accuse me of being childish yet I don't make tall claims and then go quite. Because there is no answer.
> 
> Unless I am wrong it is you who declared FN SCAR won and manules have been given to the troops. You personally told me in December to wait till June which finishes tomorrow, on this very thread!!! Among many other claims that have NO way of verifying.
> 
> If FN SCAR was the best rifle in trials. Then more rifles come into it this expanding trials can only mean that your source's were hogwash. Sorry but I would rather beleive @TheOccupiedKashmir as he is more solid in his info than you are.
> 
> Doesn't take much IQ or half a brain to understand that so called "best in trials" is just a load of bull.
> 
> 
> As for Egypt they are using CZ pistols and Scorpion SMG so I wouldn't be surprised if CZ 807 is chosen. Please tell us about the analyst you asked. Surely you don't have hidden informants in Egypt?


My source is not hogwash secondly more rifle coming doesn't mean SCAR didn't passed the trials or wasn't way ahead. Changing Rifle is a bigger decision for Army than getting a new Tank. We would test as many options as we can. Also things is more getting clear that Pakistan is looking for more than one rifle series as we have massive Armed Forces and Police and increasing them further. No your denial is only amusing. Several soldiers and other guys have confirmed the performance of SCAR and How much soldiers loved it. Your BREN had serious accuracy issues and also blasted in endurance test. AK-103 also blasted but it had better accuracy. Rifles trials are taking time and may take some more also friends are in contact with SCAR guys and they are quite relaxed also.. So you can continue to believe what ever you want even the timeline mentioned of more Rifles joining is wrong.As for Egypt they have more chance of going for new AK-15 than CZ-807.

One of my friend who now living in Baluchistan but is from Rawalpindi was there when these soldiers were testing Rifles in there range they allowed him because his relative is officer and if you remember I shared the photo in which there were several Rifles including MPT-76 and new ones that was same guy. That friend wants MPT-76 but sadly soldiers and officers he talked to all supported SCAR. And they tested the Rifles for months there. Several units of Army have been testing Rifles including 111 boys

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> My source is not hogwash secondly more rifle coming doesn't mean SCAR didn't passed the trials or wasn't way ahead. Changing Rifle is a bigger decision for Army than getting a new Tank. We would test as many options as we can. Also things is more getting clear that Pakistan is looking for more than one rifle series as we have massive Armed Forces and Police and increasing them further. No your denial is only amusing. Several soldiers and other guys have confirmed the performance of SCAR and How much soldiers loved it. Your BREN had serious accuracy issues and also blasted in endurance test. AK-103 also blasted but it had better accuracy. Rifles trials are taking time and may take some more also friends are in contact with SCAR guys and they are quite relaxed also.. So you can continue to believe what ever you want even the timeline mentioned of more Rifles joining is wrong.As for Egypt they have more chance of going for new AK-15 than CZ-807.
> 
> One of my friend who now living in Baluchistan but is from Rawalpindi was there when these soldiers were testing Rifles in there range they allowed him because his relative is officer and if you remember I shared the photo in which there were several Rifles including MPT-76 and new ones that was same guy. That friend wants MPT-76 but sadly soldiers and officers he talked to all supported SCAR. And they tested the Rifles for months there. Several units of Army have been testing Rifles including 111 boys



Hazrat that is a huge repeat and an addition of a friend related to someone was there! 

You are a FN supporter and known as one on this forum that is enough. Yes I have a right to beleive what I think is right. That is a positive maybe from you.


----------



## Naveed66

So those 8 rifles that was mentioned before are

Fn scar 
Beretta arx 200 
Cz 807 bren 
Ak 103 
Zastava m77 
Mpt 76 
Sig 716 
Colt cm901


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## Ahmet Pasha

P


Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat that is a huge repeat and an addition of a friend related to someone was there!
> 
> You are a FN supporter and known as one on this forum that is enough. Yes I have a right to beleive what I think is right. That is a positive maybe from you.





LegitimateIdiot said:


> i asked the question , way back in the olden days of this thread , and someone replied to me saying the army doesn't like bullbups



Guys y no discussion on bullpups??? 
Likes of
Radom , tar-21 are all very good platforms.
And we also have AUG and F-2000 in service With SF groups


----------



## muhammadali233

Ahmet Pasha said:


> P
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Guys y no discussion on bullpups???
> Likes of
> Radom , tar-21 are all very good platforms.
> And we also have AUG and F-2000 in service With SF groups


bullpups are in service with Pak SFs no need for the reg troops to carry a rifle that fires .223 as they do not have the sufficient stopping power when compared to a .308
bullpups are good for CQB's and for Long range it is basically not as good as G-3 or similar rifles chambered in 7.62mm

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## Ahmet Pasha

muhammadali233 said:


> bullpups are in service with Pak SFs no need for the reg troops to carry a rifle that fires .223 as they do not have the sufficient stopping power when compared to a .308
> bullpups are good for CQB's and for Long range it is basically not as good as G-3 or similar rifles chambered in 7.62mm



Hmm lets stick with conventional rifles then


----------



## Zarvan

Is SIG offering these sights with there Rifles


----------



## Zarvan

*Zastava Arms of Serbia introduces its new modular automatic assault rifle at Partner 2017.*


----------



## Kompromat

More U.S manufacturers jumping in for winter trials.

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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> *Zastava Arms of Serbia introduces its new modular automatic assault rifle at Partner 2017.*



As i mentioned,

6.5 we are not interested in!
7.62x39 is an almost sealed deal, what remain are formalities.
Dont see this gun relevant to us now.

It is 7.62x51 that we should keep an eye on for next year or two as i see it being delayed further with the x39 announcement coming first. I just hope we get done with the x39 announcement so that chapter closes once and for all.


----------



## Path-Finder

Arsalan said:


> As i mentioned,
> 
> 6.5 we are not interested in!
> 7.62x39 is an almost sealed deal, what remain are formalities.
> Dont see this gun relevant to us now.
> 
> It is 7.62x51 that we should keep an eye on for next year or two as i see it being delayed further with the x39 announcement coming first. I just hope we get done with the x39 announcement so that chapter closes once and for all.


oh sarkar I expected you to be open minded at the very least. a lot bah humbug for 6.5 grendel even though it bolsters superior ballistics to 5.56 and x39. Good thing is the x39 rifle can be easily re-chambered in 6.5 the coming rifle can be.


----------



## Arsalan

Path-Finder said:


> oh sarkar I expected you to be open minded at the very least. a lot bah humbug for 6.5 grendel even though it bolsters superior ballistics to 5.56 and x39. Good thing is the x39 rifle can be easily re-chambered in 6.5 the coming rifle can be.


I am not discarding this as an "absolutely useless gun" but because Pakistan is not interested in it.  That is what i said in the post. Do not see any narrow minded approach in this. THis thread is to discuss the Pakistans rifle replacement, is not in the picture as we are not looking at them for obvious reasons known to anyone with basic knowledge of our armed forces. If you discuss this on any other relevant thread i will surely contribute whatever i can.

Again, please understand the point, i am not discarding this as a useless rifle but as an irrelevant one. Hope you will understand the point.


----------



## Path-Finder

Arsalan said:


> I am not discarding this as an "absolutely useless gun" but because Pakistan is not interested in it.  That is what i said in the post. Do not see any narrow minded approach in this. THis thread is to discuss the Pakistans rifle replacement, is not in the picture as we are not looking at them for obvious reasons known to anyone with basic knowledge of our armed forces. If you discuss this on any other relevant thread i will surely contribute whatever i can.
> 
> Again, please understand the point, i am not discarding this as a useless rifle but as an irrelevant one. Hope you will understand the point.


I was talking about the round in particular not about the Zastava rifle it was the other rifle..... anyway I like 6.5 and I hope it has a great future.


----------



## Arsalan

Path-Finder said:


> I was talking about the round in particular not about the Zastava rifle it was the other rifle..... anyway I like 6.5 and I hope it has a great future.


And i am telling you about both!!

6.5 is irrelevant NOT because it is useless or crap but because despite not matter how many advantages it offers, WE are not interested in it for reasons, as i said, obvious to anyone who have the basic understanding of our armed forces. 

We can discuss the merits or demerits of this round or gun on a relevant thread but it wont have any part to play in Pakistan's rifle replacement so lets not do it here.


----------



## Path-Finder

Arsalan said:


> And i am telling you about both!!
> 
> 6.5 is irrelevant NOT because it is useless or crap but because despite not matter how many advantages it offers, WE are not interested in it for reasons, as i said, obvious to anyone who have the basic understanding of our armed forces.
> 
> We can discuss the merits or demerits of this round or gun on a relevant thread but it wont have any part to play in Pakistan's rifle replacement so lets not do it here.


----------



## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> As i mentioned,
> 
> 6.5 we are not interested in!
> 7.62x39 is an almost sealed deal, what remain are formalities.
> Dont see this gun relevant to us now.
> 
> It is 7.62x51 that we should keep an eye on for next year or two as i see it being delayed further with the x39 announcement coming first. I just hope we get done with the x39 announcement so that chapter closes once and for all.


The 7.62 X 39 version can't be ruled out now specially because we had very few options in 7.62 X 39. Also the same company had previously brought there other rifle but there is possibility that company could have told Pak Army about new Rifle I mean this one and asked for sometime to bring it to trials. I won't be surprised if this Rifle is already in trials in 7.62 X 39 category.

@Horus @balixd








Horus said:


> More U.S manufacturers jumping in for winter trials.


@Arsalan If this is true than we can't rule out this Zastava 7.62 X 39 Rifle also.



Horus said:


> More U.S manufacturers jumping in for winter trials.







I am hoping for this one. All others are basically AR-15 nothing special this is only thing if they send other calibers I mean 7.62 X 39 and 7.62 X 51 it would be interesting to see

@Path-Finder


----------



## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> The 7.62 X 39 version can't be ruled out now specially because we had very few options in 7.62 X 39. Also the same company had previously brought there other rifle but there is possibility that company could have told Pak Army about new Rifle I mean this one and asked for sometime to bring it to trials. I won't be surprised if this Rifle is already in trials in 7.62 X 39 category.
> 
> @Horus @balixd
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Arsalan If this is true than we can't rule out this Zastava 7.62 X 39 Rifle also.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am hoping for this one. All others are basically AR-15 nothing special this is only thing if they send other calibers I mean 7.62 X 39 and 7.62 X 51 it would be interesting to see
> 
> @Path-Finder


I am not talking about trials. 
I was pointing toward the discussion about business end of the deal being finalized. Will roll back on a few gains on that front if we are to look at another gun in x39. Not impossible but highly improbable.


----------



## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> The 7.62 X 39 version can't be ruled out now specially because we had very few options in 7.62 X 39. Also the same company had previously brought there other rifle but there is possibility that company could have told Pak Army about new Rifle I mean this one and asked for sometime to bring it to trials. I won't be surprised if this Rifle is already in trials in 7.62 X 39 category.
> 
> @Horus @balixd
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Arsalan If this is true than we can't rule out this Zastava 7.62 X 39 Rifle also.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am hoping for this one. All others are basically AR-15 nothing special this is only thing if they send other calibers I mean 7.62 X 39 and 7.62 X 51 it would be interesting to see
> 
> @Path-Finder


hmmn I highly doubt Bushmaster will be in it but lets see.

I will say one thing At least Bushmaster made improvements on their original ACR and made it better, sadly FN didn't.


----------



## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> hmmn I highly doubt Bushmaster will be in it but lets see.
> 
> I will say one thing At least Bushmaster made improvements on their original ACR and made it better, sadly FN didn't.


They didn't had to otherwise SCAR would have not passed the tests in Pakistan. It did pass the tests in -50 and 54 C because it was dam good stop coming up with childish response you are getting pathetically amusing now.


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> They didn't had to otherwise SCAR would have not passed the tests in Pakistan. It did pass the tests in -50 and 54 C because it was dam good stop coming up with childish response you are getting pathetically amusing now.


I thought you were going to give a technical response but NO. So Bushmaster went back and made huge improvements to their ACR but FN cannot make improvements as it ascended from the heavens. So Hazrat when gun makers make improved models/varients of their rifles they are idiots?


----------



## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> I thought you were going to give a technical response but NO. So Bushmaster went back and made huge improvements to their ACR but FN cannot make improvements as it ascended from the heavens. So Hazrat when gun makers make improved models/varients of their rifles they are idiots?


A Rifle which passes all the tests in 54 C and -54 C is a dam good Gun. But changes would be made if we adopt it than what we require the company will make the changes. Yes Bushmaster made several changes still ACR is no where although I can see a great potential in this Gun but Bushmaster also failed to come up with 7.62 X 39 and 7.62 X 51 calibers. For some reason a Rifle which every one was anticipating is dying. Still I am really hope other USA manufactures which @Horus just mentioned are not AR 15 kind of rifle guys but this ACR is the one. Secondly I am more than sure Pakistan is basically looking for at least two rifle series and from that I mean a Rifle which has Guns 7.62 X 51 and 7.62 X 39 and 5.56 X 45 not to forget sniper versions.


----------



## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> A Rifle which passes all the tests in 54 C and -54 C is a dam good Gun. But changes would be made if we adopt it than what we require the company will make the changes. Yes Bushmaster made several changes still ACR is no where although I can see a great potential in this Gun but Bushmaster also failed to come up with 7.62 X 39 and 7.62 X 51 calibers. For some reason a Rifle which every one was anticipating is dying. Still I am really hope other USA manufactures which @Horus just mentioned are not AR 15 kind of rifle guys but this ACR is the one. Secondly I am more than sure Pakistan is basically looking for at least two rifle series and from that I mean a Rifle which has Guns 7.62 X 51 and 7.62 X 39 and 5.56 X 45 not to forget sniper versions.



Hazrat what has this got to do with improving a design? making changes per feedback! You have repeated the same thing again with ACR in it.


----------



## Zarvan

Horus said:


> More U.S manufacturers jumping in for winter trials.


If it's not ACR than we need to stop them from coming because man they are only AR-15 after AR-15. A country known for most high tech stuff is quite bad at coming up with new Rifle designs

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## pzfz

6.5 grendel is useless when one already has 762x39. 6.5 lapua or creedmoor on the other hand...

US has many more rifle designs, check out the hybrids like the arak31/21 or the robinson xcr.

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## Mahmood-ur-Rehman

We should develop our own rifle.


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## RAMPAGE

Shouldn't Daudson Armoury be working on a rifle of their own? Perhaps they are.


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## Zarvan

pzfz said:


> 6.5 grendel is useless when one already has 762x39. 6.5 lapua or creedmoor on the other hand...
> 
> US has many more rifle designs, check out the hybrids like the arak31/21 or the robinson xcr.


Sorry but ARAK 31 is nothing but AR 15


----------



## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Sorry but ARAK 31 is nothing but AR 15



Really Arak is an AR. But it has a gas system similar to AK similar to even FN SCAR!!!






Now Hazrat this guy is committing blasphemy at 06:05 he starts talking and says something that is wajab ul qatal

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Really Arak is an AR. But it has a gas system similar to AK similar to even FN SCAR!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now Hazrat this guy is committing blasphemy at 06:05 he starts talking and says something that is wajab ul qatal


This Rifle can come for 7.62 X 39 category


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> This Rifle can come for 7.62 X 39 category


So it has your approval, more important than army's own approval


----------



## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> So it has your approval, more important than army's own approval


My approval doesn't matter I am hoping if more Gun companies are coming from USA than one of them should be ACR other wise all other AR-15 after AR-15


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> My approval doesn't matter I am hoping if more Gun companies are coming from USA than one of them should be ACR other wise all other AR-15 after AR-15


No Hazrat you are bit of a general. Not all AR are the same! Each manufacturer has their own specific engineered rifle's


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> No Hazrat you are bit of a general. Not all AR are the same! Each manufacturer has their own specific engineered rifle's


By the way can you tell about 10 best AR which you think are 10 best From USA companies


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## Ahmet Pasha

AK47


Zarvan said:


> By the way can you tell about 10 best AR which you think are 10 best From USA companies


----------



## Mumm-Ra

318 pages and and most of the content is SCAR vs Non-SCAR and some really silly comebacks.

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## Path-Finder

Xlvee01 said:


> 318 pages and and most of the content is SCAR vs Non-SCAR and some really silly comebacks.


yea but are the comebacks any good? are you *not* entertained????



Zarvan said:


> By the way can you tell about 10 best AR which you think are 10 best From USA companies


there are too many why not consult google and youtube your old friend MAC has some good videos on AR rifles. 

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZ-qxagOkAmCEP-Tu6YliUQ

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## Mumm-Ra

Path-Finder said:


> yea but are the comebacks any good? are you *not* entertained????


definitely entertained bro..

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## Zarvan

Moose said:


> It's very entertaining to watch the back-and-forth between members and even more fun to watch the rumors and false info fly around as everyone tries to be first to break the story or look like they're "in the know", but it'd be more fun if you guys could please pick a rifle and end this competition two years after this thread was started. I know it takes time to work out the backroom stuff such as partnerships, manufacturing location, order numbers, transfer of tech if applicable and other stuff, not to mention actually trialing the rifles themselves, but come on, you're beginning to look like India and their never ending INSAS replacement saga.
> 
> In the mean time... ya'll want to borrow this? I think you could use it.


It won't be India like saga decision will be taken only few things left one major reason is also our Political crisis which would get get by end of July and start of August


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## Zarvan

*cant tell u in TL less the operation is fully approved by COAS there r 3 final categories in short/medium/CQB and long range*

Asked a Captain about Rifle trials on twitter he says his unit also tested the Rifles but refused to comment on the results they had but he gave the above reply can any explain it in detail I understand most of it still little more detail would be preferred 

@Path-Finder @Arsalan @Horus @balixd


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## Path-Finder

Xlvee01 said:


> definitely entertained bro..





Moose said:


> It's very entertaining to watch the back-and-forth between members and even more fun to watch the rumors and false info fly around as everyone tries to be first to break the story or look like they're "in the know", but it'd be more fun if you guys could please pick a rifle and end this competition two years after this thread was started. I know it takes time to work out the backroom stuff such as partnerships, manufacturing location, order numbers, transfer of tech if applicable and other stuff, not to mention actually trialing the rifles themselves, but come on, you're beginning to look like India and their never ending INSAS replacement saga.
> 
> In the mean time... ya'll want to borrow this? I think you could use it.



I am ecstatically pleased that you have enjoyed this thread it could never have been made without the forum's Hazrat @Zarvan  

As for any specific rifle I can tell as much as SCAR was the best rifle in Trials. HK417 is no longer available due to German/H&K policy thus ending a 50+year relationship with H&K, But there are exciting developments and hopefully something is announced in due time.



Zarvan said:


> *cant tell u in TL less the operation is fully approved by COAS there r 3 final categories in short/medium/CQB and long range*
> 
> Asked a Captain about Rifle trials on twitter he says his unit also tested the Rifles but refused to comment on the results they had but he gave the above reply can any explain it in detail I understand most of it still little more detail would be preferred
> 
> @Path-Finder @Arsalan @Horus @balixd



That sounds like something @Rafi told us almost a year ago and then Horus said it few months later.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Short,medium, cqb and lon range thats 4 categories.
Hmmmm ab kya hoga??


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## Path-Finder

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Short,medium, cqb and lon range thats 4 categories.
> Hmmmm ab kya hoga??


Short = Sidearm/handgun 
Mediaum + CQB = 7.62x39 + 7.62x51*
long range = sniper rifles. 
*was the best in trials


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## Muhammad Omar

Budget aai huay bhi 1 month hogya kab hoga Decision???


----------



## Path-Finder

Muhammad Omar said:


> Budget aai huay bhi 1 month hogya kab hoga Decision???


ask the SCAR najumi Hazrat @Zarvan

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## Ahmet Pasha

Path-Finder said:


> Short = Sidearm/handgun
> Mediaum + CQB = 7.62x39 + 7.62x51*
> long range = sniper rifles.
> *was the best in trials



What are the current sidearms??

And dont we already use a wide range of sniper rifles?


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Short = Sidearm/handgun
> Mediaum + CQB = 7.62x39 + 7.62x51*
> long range = sniper rifles.
> *was the best in trials


He was not talking about Sniper Rifles and yes we are looking for handgun and Sniper Rifles what he says basically Pakistan looking for 3 Assault Rifles and it see we are looking Rifle in all 3 Calibers which we use. 5.56 X 45 and 7.62 X 39 and 7.62 X 51


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## Ahmet Pasha

Zarvan said:


> He was not talking about Sniper Rifles and yes we are looking for handgun and Sniper Rifles what he says basically Pakistan looking for 3 Assault Rifles and it see we are looking Rifle in all 3 Calibers which we use. 5.56 X 45 and 7.62 X 39 and 7.62 X 51



Maybe 2 assault rifles and 1 SMG???

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> He was not talking about Sniper Rifles and yes we are looking for handgun and Sniper Rifles what he says basically Pakistan looking for 3 Assault Rifles and it see we are looking Rifle in all 3 Calibers which we use. 5.56 X 45 and 7.62 X 39 and 7.62 X 51


Hazrat Multicalibre rifle means that x39 can change between the two calibre!!!! so now you are saying that we need 3 rifles.


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat Multicalibre rifle means that x39 can change between the two calibre!!!! so now you are saying that we need 3 rifles.


Well I am not saying this is what I think that Captain was saying which I talked to on twitter


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Well I am not saying this is what I think that Captain was saying which I talked to on twitter


hmmn


----------



## Gryphon

There are only 2 tenders.. 7.62x39mm and 7.62x51mm.

A shorter barrel can be used for CQC role.

No tender yet for pistols.

5.56x45mm is just speculation of a few.

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## Ahmet Pasha

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> There are only 2 tenders.. 7.62x39mm and 7.62x51mm.
> 
> A shorter barrel can be used for CQC role.
> 
> No tender yet for pistols.
> 
> 5.56x45mm is just speculation of a few.



For CQC SSGN uses commando something. Which is ar based right??

Was there ever a requirement for new SMG because in the Balochistan video CZ guys were showing their EVO 2 SMG.


----------



## Gryphon

Ahmet Pasha said:


> For CQC SSGN uses commando something. Which is ar based right??
> 
> Was there ever a requirement for new SMG because in the Balochistan video CZ guys were showing their EVO 2 SMG.



M4 Commando

There are no plans to replace HK MP5 yet.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> M4 Commando
> 
> There are no plans to replace HK MP5 yet.


Aswell as :

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## Zarvan

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Aswell as :
> 
> View attachment 408912
> View attachment 408913
> View attachment 408916
> View attachment 408919


These are SIG and new models of SIG mainly called SIG 716 is part of competition


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

Zarvan said:


> These are SIG and new models of SIG mainly called SIG 716 is part of competition


Maybe?





716

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## Zarvan

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Maybe?
> View attachment 408923
> 
> 
> 716
> 
> View attachment 408924







Yes it's there so let see what happens in the results @Horus


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

Zarvan said:


> Yes it's there so let see what happens in the results @Horus



see the size difference.






More likely is a new variant of 556.



Excalibørk said:


> Doesn't look like an HK416 model. Seems to be a fancied up M4.
> 
> The HK416 carbine (HK416K) has some subtle (mag well and a few others aren't typical of the 416), but noticeable differences.


More likely is a new variant of 556.



Excalibørk said:


> Doesn't look like an HK416 model. Seems to be a fancied up M4.
> 
> The HK416 carbine (HK416K) has some subtle (mag well and a few others aren't typical of the 416), but noticeable differences.


----------



## Zarvan

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> see the size difference.
> View attachment 408925
> 
> 
> 
> More likely is a new variant of 556.
> 
> 
> More likely is a new variant of 556.
> 
> 
> View attachment 408929


Sir it has different sizes Sir it also has short size which is right not available in USA in civilian version but if we want it would be available in Military version and they version you posted is 5.56 Caliber they also have new SIG 516 which is 5.56 Caliber

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## DESERT FIGHTER

*SIG516 7.5" SBR*
*



*



Zarvan said:


> Sir it has different sizes Sir it also has short size which is right not available in USA in civilian version but if we want it would be available in Military version and they version you posted is 5.56 Caliber they also have new SIG 516 which is 5.56 Caliber

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## muhammadali233

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> No tender yet for pistols.

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## Zarvan

muhammadali233 said:


>


The video is way old in fact older than entire process of Assault Rifles started


----------



## Gryphon

muhammadali233 said:


>



Only Sarsilmaz pistols were purchased for officers.


----------



## Amaa'n

Ahmet Pasha said:


> For CQC SSGN uses commando something. Which is ar based right??
> 
> Was there ever a requirement for new SMG because in the Balochistan video CZ guys were showing their EVO 2 SMG.


SSGN is using Sig Saur SBRs while SSG uses m4a1 colt with standard barrel

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## Zarvan

balixd said:


> SSGN is using Sig Saur SBRs while SSG uses m4a1 colt with standard barrel


Sir anything new on Rifle trials ????


----------



## Amaa'n

Zarvan said:


> *cant tell u in TL less the operation is fully approved by COAS there r 3 final categories in short/medium/CQB and long range*
> 
> Asked a Captain about Rifle trials on twitter he says his unit also tested the Rifles but refused to comment on the results they had but he gave the above reply can any explain it in detail I understand most of it still little more detail would be preferred
> 
> @Path-Finder @Arsalan @Horus @balixd


Logistically speaking, it is a cluster **** to have three categories of a Weapon system with regards of Pakistan Armed Forces ----

what Captaan sb is trying to tell you is we will have a SMG (as they call AK47 for some odd & unknown reason) 7.62 x39

second would be for 7.62 x 51 Battle Rifle in 18" category

Long range would be DMR on Squad level

If you consider the Short in its true meaning that would mean SBR in 7.5" barrel length, which would come out of a 5.56, it will be a little messy with 7.62x39 ----- & i don't see any 5.56 on the tender



Zarvan said:


> Sir anything new on Rifle trials ????


nothing you already don't know

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## Zarvan

balixd said:


> Logistically speaking, it is a cluster **** to have three categories of a Weapon system with regards of Pakistan Armed Forces ----
> 
> what Captaan sb is trying to tell you is we will have a SMG (as they call AK47 for some odd & unknown reason) 7.62 x39
> 
> second would be for 7.62 x 51 Battle Rifle in 18" category
> 
> Long range would be DMR on Squad level
> 
> If you consider the Short in its true meaning that would mean SBR in 7.5" barrel length, which would come out of a 5.56, it will be a little messy with 7.62x39 ----- & i don't see any 5.56 on the tender


Okay I see that good I though from Long Range the mean Assault Rifle in 7.62 X 51 category but thanks for the clarification



balixd said:


> Logistically speaking, it is a cluster **** to have three categories of a Weapon system with regards of Pakistan Armed Forces ----
> 
> what Captaan sb is trying to tell you is we will have a SMG (as they call AK47 for some odd & unknown reason) 7.62 x39
> 
> second would be for 7.62 x 51 Battle Rifle in 18" category
> 
> Long range would be DMR on Squad level
> 
> If you consider the Short in its true meaning that would mean SBR in 7.5" barrel length, which would come out of a 5.56, it will be a little messy with 7.62x39 ----- & i don't see any 5.56 on the tender
> 
> 
> nothing you already don't know


So when we would learn anything knew now even I am getting a tired now I am waiting for this Panama thing to get over because some suggest that this issue is also causing delay in defence deals.


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## Amaa'n

Zarvan said:


> Okay I see that good I though from Long Range the mean Assault Rifle in 7.62 X 51 category but thanks for the clarification


and honestly speaking don't take words of these Captains seriously ---- I had a Captain who was about to fire an out of battery pistol (handgun was mine) --- since that day, i never trust a Captain / Lt with my guns

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## Kabira

@Zarvan when will army decide to buy new rifle? War with India is coming up and Pakistan can't afford to fight it with WW1 era G3.


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## Zarvan

Tesky said:


> @Zarvan when will army decide to buy new rifle? War with India is coming up and Pakistan can't afford to fight it with WW1 era G3.


Don't worry there is no war with India coming up right now. The day India decided to create the lie of surgical strike that made me more than 200 % sure that India is in no position to fight.

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## Kabira

Zarvan said:


> Don't worry there is no war with India coming up right now. The day India decided to create the lie of surgical strike that made me more than 200 % sure that India is in no position to fight.



India-China war is around the corner which will be perfect time to liberate IoK because then India will no longer enjoy 7-1 advantage over Pakistan.

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## Zarvan

Tesky said:


> India-China war is around the corner which will be perfect time to liberate IoK because then India will no longer enjoy 7-1 advantage over Pakistan.


They won't fight. They will keep threatening each other but no fighting is going to take place


----------



## Kabira

Zarvan said:


> They won't fight. They will keep threatening each other but no fighting is going to take place


Anyway when army will decide on new rifle? Any idea?


----------



## Zarvan

Tesky said:


> Anyway when army will decide on new rifle? Any idea?


I am more desperate than you but new rifles entry along with political situation is delaying defence deals but hopefully not much time left


----------



## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> I am more desperate than you but new rifles entry along with political situation is delaying defence deals but hopefully not much time left



desperation is false narrative. you have decided the winner before the trials ended!!


----------



## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> desperation is false narrative. you have decided the winner before the trials ended!!


No but yes SCAR is still leading so and if it performs best and I @Horus also posted summer trials but you want to keep denying I can do nothing about that


----------



## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> No but yes SCAR is still leading so and if it performs best and I @Horus also posted summer trials but you want to keep denying I can do nothing about that


Yes SCAR was the best rifle in trials as per you and Horus! Hazrat it is very simple. are you a Payamber or have na'uzubillah gained Nabuwat, that we should believe you without raising questions on the info you give us? 

so we cannot even dispute what you say? because you are 100% right? that is incredible garoor and takubar Hazrat


----------



## Ahmet Pasha

balixd said:


> Logistically speaking, it is a cluster **** to have three categories of a Weapon system with regards of Pakistan Armed Forces ----
> 
> what Captaan sb is trying to tell you is we will have a SMG (as they call AK47 for some odd & unknown reason) 7.62 x39
> 
> second would be for 7.62 x 51 Battle Rifle in 18" category
> 
> Long range would be DMR on Squad level
> 
> If you consider the Short in its true meaning that would mean SBR in 7.5" barrel length, which would come out of a 5.56, it will be a little messy with 7.62x39 ----- & i don't see any 5.56 on the tender
> 
> 
> nothing you already don't know



GIGN selected CZ BREN because it was offering it a SBR carbine in 7.62X39. You can read up on it too its been documented.

And I was referring to SIG of SGN cuz it resembles m4 commando my bad.

Cheers Mate 

Also what is a squad in PA. In nato they have fire teams with one MG and likely a marksman???


----------



## Letum

IMHO
For 7.62x39 they should go for AK103.
For 7.62x51 they should go for HK417
For 5.56 they should go for HK416 
All of these guns should be mass produced in pakistan on basis of technology transfer

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## Hexciter

Letum said:


> IMHO
> For 7.62x39 they should go for AK103.
> For 7.62x51 they should go for HK417
> For 5.56 they should go for HK416
> All of these guns should be mass produced in pakistan on basis of technology transfer



HK is not available for Pakistan

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## Sameer25

so is the army going with the scar-h or what

i think pakistan should develop their own assault rifle. they should go for 5.56 because it is better


----------



## Zarvan

Sameer25 said:


> so is the army going with the scar-h or what
> 
> i think pakistan should develop their own assault rifle. they should go for 5.56 because it is better


5.56 is good enough for CQB but not long range for that we need 7.62 X 51


----------



## Arsalan

Sameer25 said:


> so is the army going with the scar-h or what
> 
> i think pakistan should develop their own assault rifle. they should go for 5.56 because it is better


And why would you say that we should develop our own gun? 
and
why 5.56?


----------



## Sameer25

Arsalan said:


> And why would you say that we should develop our own gun?
> and
> why 5.56?


well 5.56 has other advantages over 7.62, it is lighter so soldiers can carry more rounds, the gun will then be lighter and 7.62 is overkill for Pakistan. We dont even need those extreme ranges. we should develop our own gun to reduce reliance on other countries. we need to start producing our own weapons so that we can be self sufficient. if we create our own weapon. we can cater it for our own needs and increase our effectiveness


----------



## Path-Finder

Sameer25 said:


> well 5.56 has other advantages over 7.62, it is lighter so soldiers can carry more rounds, the gun will then be lighter and 7.62 is overkill for Pakistan. We dont even need those extreme ranges. we should develop our own gun to reduce reliance on other countries. we need to start producing our own weapons so that we can be self sufficient. if we create our own weapon. we can cater it for our own needs and increase our effectiveness



To make it very simple for you the Doctrine behind 5.56 is not followed in Pakistan! The doctrine in PA is the person is shot to be killed, no faffing about with double tap or triple tap. If the soldier takes out the enemy with one round then less ammo needs to be carried.

5.56 is not a potent ammunition.


----------



## Hexciter

Sameer25 said:


> well 5.56 has other advantages over 7.62, it is lighter so soldiers can carry more rounds, the gun will then be lighter and 7.62 is overkill for Pakistan. We dont even need those extreme ranges. we should develop our own gun to reduce reliance on other countries. we need to start producing our own weapons so that we can be self sufficient. if we create our own weapon. we can cater it for our own needs and increase our effectiveness



Not be very sure about 5.56 !



Hexciter said:


> BREAKING: US Army Releases RFI for New 7.62mm Interim Combat Service Rifle
> 
> The US Army’s Program Manager for Individual Weapons has issued a new Request for Information (RFI) to the industry for a new 7.62x51mm Interim Combat Service Rifle, which seeks to bring out the best battle rifles the market has to offer. The RFI, posted at FBO,gov, reads:
> 
> DESCRIPTION: This announcement constitutes an official Request for Information (RFI) for an Interim Combat Service Rifle (ICSR). The U.S. Army, Army Contracting Command – New Jersey at Picatinny Arsenal is conducting a market survey on behalf of Product Manager Individual Weapons to identify potential sources for a combat rifle system.
> This Request For Information (RFI) is for planning purposes only and should not be construed as a Request for Proposal or as an obligation on the part of the Government to acquire any services or hardware. Your response to this RFI will be treated as information only. No entitlement to payment of direct or indirect costs or charges by the Government will arise as a result of contractor submission of responses to this announcement or Government use of such information. No funds have been authorized, appropriated, or received for this effort. The information provided may be used by the Army in developing its Acquisition Strategy, Performance Work Statement and Performance Specification. Interested parties are responsible for adequately marking proprietary or competition sensitive information contained in their response. The Government does not intend to award a contract on the basis of this RFI or to otherwise pay for the information submitted in response to same. The information provided herein is subject to change and in no way binds the Government to pursue any course of action described herein. The U.S. Government is not obligated to notify respondents of the results of this survey.
> 
> Desired Attributes of Interim Combat Service Rifle:
> 
> • The rifle must be a Commercial Off The Shelf (COTS) system readily available for purchase today. Modified or customized systems are not being considered.
> • Caliber: 7.62x51mm
> • Available barrel lengths, to include 16 and 20 inch barrels, without muzzle device attached.
> • Muzzle device capable of or adaptable to auxiliary devices for:
> — Compensation of muzzle climb
> — Flash suppression
> — Sound Suppression
> • Fire Control: Safe, Semi-automatic, and fully automatic capable.
> • All controls (e.g. selector, charging handle) are ambidextrous and operable by left and right handed users
> • Capable of mounting a 1.25 inch wide military sling
> • Capable of accepting or mounting the following accessories.
> — Forward grip/bi-pod for the weapon
> — variable power optic
> • Detachable magazine with a minimum capacity of 20 rounds
> • Folding or collapsing buttstock adjustable to change the overall length of the weapon
> • Foldable backup iron sights calibrated/adjustable to a maximum of 600 meters range
> • Weight less than 12lb unloaded and without optic
> • Extended Forward Rail
> 
> Those looking to make a submission should follow the link to the FedBizOpps website for further information.
> 
> It seems that the current theory behind this switch lies with the US Army and Congress’s concern that current 5.56mm ammunition will be unable to penetrate hard ceramic body armors like the Army’s current ESAPI plates without switching to the larger 7.62mm round. While on the surface, this move seems to be logical, its legitimacy thins considerably when the situation is considered in detail. First, neither current 5.56mm nor 7.62mm ball ammunition (M855A1 and M80A1 EPRs) can penetrate ceramic armor at any combat distances, nor could any kind of hypothetical round that did not use a heavy metal. This means that for a 7.62mm rifle to be effective, it must fire not the current M80A1 round, but a tungsten-cored AP round such as M993 or the upcoming XM1158 ADVAP which almost certainly also has a tungsten core. What makes a switch to 7.62mm on this basis strange is that with tungsten-cored ammunition 5.56mm will also penetrate ceramic body armor out to 100-200 meters.
> 
> It would be incorrect to suggest that this solution in either caliber is “neat”. Rather, both are less than satisfying for a number of reasons, not the least of which is the extreme limited availability and high cost of tungsten material. Tungsten-cored ammunition is 4-5 times as expensive per round, and cannot be used in “industrial” quantities for large-scale economic war the way that normal ammunition can. Therefore, this solution – in either caliber – is problematic, and the question of what the right solution is if hard ceramic armors are expected to proliferate remains essentially unanswered, even with a 7.62mm ICSR.
> 
> All this raises the question: Is the armor issue simply an excuse for a larger-caliber infantry rifle? The suggestion that it might be draws attention to the very serious concerns I presented in my previous article about the ICSR effort. If the supposed benefits of the 7.62mm round in addressing a critical need to defeat next-generation body armor are more or less fiction, then what is so compelling about this move that a litany of major penalties to the rifleman’s effectiveness in both training and combat are deemed acceptable?
> 
> http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...-rfi-new-7-62mm-interim-combat-service-rifle/


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## Awan68

Path-Finder said:


> Yes SCAR was the best rifle in trials as per you and Horus! Hazrat it is very simple. are you a Payamber or have na'uzubillah gained Nabuwat, that we should believe you without raising questions on the info you give us?
> 
> so we cannot even dispute what you say? because you are 100% right? that is incredible garoor and takubar Hazrat


this is a seriously offensive post, i suggest u learn how to troll properly...

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## Path-Finder

Awan68 said:


> this is a seriously offensive post, i suggest u learn how to troll properly...


offensive how?


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## Ahmet Pasha

This used to be a meaningful thread 

Now when life gets to me and I need a laugh this is where i find relief 

Maybe we should change the name of this thread to SCAR was the best performing rifle in trials.

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## LegitimateIdiot

Letum said:


> IMHO
> For 7.62x39 they should go for AK103.
> For 7.62x51 they should go for HK417
> For 5.56 they should go for HK416
> All of these guns should be mass produced in pakistan on basis of technology transfer


we should go fro some more modern ak rifles which russia has a long selection of



Ahmet Pasha said:


> This used to be a meaningful thread
> 
> Now when life gets to me and I need a laugh this is where i find relief
> 
> Maybe we should change the name of this thread to SCAR was the best performing rifle in trials.


How the hell are you a 2cnd lieutenant already , I HAVE JOINED IN 2016 while you have joined in 2017


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## Ahmet Pasha

LegitimateIdiot said:


> we should go fro some more modern ak rifles which russia has a long selection of
> 
> 
> How the hell are you a 2cnd lieutenant already , I HAVE JOINED IN 2016 while you have joined in 2017



Chai pani


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## Arsalan

Sameer25 said:


> well 5.56 has other advantages over 7.62, it is lighter so soldiers can carry more rounds, the gun will then be lighter and 7.62 is overkill for Pakistan. We dont even need those extreme ranges. we should develop our own gun to reduce reliance on other countries. we need to start producing our own weapons so that we can be self sufficient. if we create our own weapon. we can cater it for our own needs and increase our effectiveness


5.56 have proven itself to be lacking power, it do not have that "take-out" effect that Pakistan army look for. We do not use three round burst to take down our target. 7.62 is perfectly suit our needs and that is why PA is only looking at 7.62 and 5.56 was not even considered for this new rifle procurement.

As for developing our own gun, thing to note here is that whatever gun we will purchase will come with ToT and a license to export so essentially we can get all the goods from this gun that we can get from a locally developed gun. Still as i mentioned a few months back, there still were some people, sitting in places that matter that wanted a locally developed gun but it was some 15-18 months ago (discussed in a casual meeting with someone). Will we still pursue it, i don't think so. The reason being the fact that we can get we can ask for from this G3 replacement deal.


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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> 5.56 have proven itself to be lacking power, it do not have that "take-out" effect that Pakistan army look for. We do not use three round burst to take down our target. 7.62 is perfectly suit our needs and that is why PA is only looking at 7.62 and 5.56 was not even considered for this new rifle procurement.
> 
> As for developing our own gun, thing to note here is that whatever gun we will purchase will come with ToT and a license to export so essentially we can get all the goods from this gun that we can get from a locally developed gun. Still as i mentioned a few months back, there still were some people, sitting in places that matter that wanted a locally developed gun but it was some 15-18 months ago (discussed in a casual meeting with someone). Will we still pursue it, i don't think so. The reason being the fact that we can get we can ask for from this G3 replacement deal.


5.56 is good enough at Urban Warfare and also to equip Police and 7.62 X 51 is great as Battle ammo. Also big prove is SSG has shifted to 5.56 from 7.62 X 39


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## Ahmet Pasha

5.56 remains in SSG arsenal for special purpose and a particular environment. Mostly with ATUs like Zarrar. Other guns including type 56 and G3 and AUG still serve with SSG. And again that is due to special purposes and mission requirements.


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## Zarvan

Ahmet Pasha said:


> 5.56 remains in SSG arsenal for special purpose and a particular environment. Mostly with ATUs like Zarrar. Other guns including type 56 and G3 and AUG still serve with SSG. And again that is due to special purposes and mission requirements.


I have never seen SSG with G3. Type 56 was being used by SSG but than M4 arrived and now if you see all modern pictures of SSG taken in past one to two years you won't see any of them carrying Type 56. @DESERT FIGHTER can verify that as for AUG I really trying to remember where I saw SSG last time using that but may be some of them are in USE with SSGN. Although as for specially forces I think they should not have a standard weapon instead trained on as many Rifles as they can.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Zarvan said:


> I have never seen SSG with G3. Type 56 was being used by SSG but than M4 arrived and now if you see all modern pictures of SSG taken in past one to two years you won't see any of them carrying Type 56. @DESERT FIGHTER can verify that as for AUG I really trying to remember where I saw SSG last time using that but may be some of them are in USE with SSGN. Although as for specially forces I think they should not have a standard weapon instead trained on as many Rifles as they can.


SSG doesn't use G-3s.

Whatever Type-56s they had have been phased out... (even before that they had limited type-56... mostly Russian and Bulgarian M series).

AUGs are in wide use.. even police has em..

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## Ahmet Pasha

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> SSG doesn't use G-3s.
> 
> Whatever Type-56s they had have been phased out... (even before that they had limited type-56... mostly Russian and Bulgarian M series).
> 
> AUGs are in wide use.. even police has em..



Do u mean police police??? Or SWAT??


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Do u mean police police??? Or SWAT??


Ive seen both use it.

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## TaimiKhan

Just see how the guy handles scar heavy, what an accuracy even though the recoil of 7.62*51mm is heavy but he still controls it and shoots incredibly. 

Awesome weapon as its modular thus can be easily shifted from nato 7.62 With just slight changes to 7.62*39mm. 

If this gets selected it can cover all our requirements of assault rifle, cqb reqd, desig sniper rifle and even replace ak47s.

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## TaimiKhan

Zarvan said:


> I have never seen SSG with G3. Type 56 was being used by SSG but than M4 arrived and now if you see all modern pictures of SSG taken in past one to two years you won't see any of them carrying Type 56. @DESERT FIGHTER can verify that as for AUG I really trying to remember where I saw SSG last time using that but may be some of them are in USE with SSGN. Although as for specially forces I think they should not have a standard weapon instead trained on as many Rifles as they can.


Ak47 variants still in use. M4s cant do what AK47s can do. 

Plus they have non chinese versions of ak47s as desert fighter said.


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## Ahmet Pasha

TaimiKhan said:


> Ak47 variants still in use. M4s cant do what AK47s can do.
> 
> Plus they have non chinese versions of ak47s as desert fighter said.



Desert fighter said contrary to what u nd i are saying


----------



## Zarvan

TaimiKhan said:


> Ak47 variants still in use. M4s cant do what AK47s can do.
> 
> Plus they have non chinese versions of ak47s as desert fighter said.


Sir in past two years in every SSG picture there is only M4. M4 seems to be new love for SSG. From that I have realized that SSG or Army had no love for 7.62 X 39 caliber only thing was after WOT specially the most easy access to a rifle they had for good CQB was type 56 so they went for that



TaimiKhan said:


> Just see how the guy handles scar heavy, what an accuracy even though the recoil of 7.62*51mm is heavy but he still controls it and shoots incredibly.
> 
> Awesome weapon as its modular thus can be easily shifted from nato 7.62 With just slight changes to 7.62*39mm.
> 
> If this gets selected it can cover all our requirements of assault rifle, cqb reqd, desig sniper rifle and even replace ak47s.


Exactly Sir it offers various versions in all calibers and in fact soon 7.62 X 39 SCAR is also arriving


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## Sameer25

Arsalan said:


> 5.56 have proven itself to be lacking power, it do not have that "take-out" effect that Pakistan army look for. We do not use three round burst to take down our target. 7.62 is perfectly suit our needs and that is why PA is only looking at 7.62 and 5.56 was not even considered for this new rifle procurement.
> 
> As for developing our own gun, thing to note here is that whatever gun we will purchase will come with ToT and a license to export so essentially we can get all the goods from this gun that we can get from a locally developed gun. Still as i mentioned a few months back, there still were some people, sitting in places that matter that wanted a locally developed gun but it was some 15-18 months ago (discussed in a casual meeting with someone). Will we still pursue it, i don't think so. The reason being the fact that we can get we can ask for from this G3 replacement deal.


so is there a replacement for the G3 currently. I like want the scar because its modular and 7.62 but it is kind of expensive


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## TaimiKhan

M4s are good for urban warfare, house to house thing. For mountainous terrain of our fata region ak47s are preferred as 5.56 lack the range and stopping power. 

Every week see ssg guys moving towards fata areas and they have most of the times ak47s. M4 are rare. 

And zarvan, ak47s are in service much much before wot even started. For decades ak47s has been the primary weapon for ssg guys. 





Ahmet Pasha said:


> Desert fighter said contrary to what u nd i are saying





Zarvan said:


> Sir in past two years in every SSG picture there is only M4. M4 seems to be new love for SSG. From that I have realized that SSG or Army had no love for 7.62 X 39 caliber only thing was after WOT specially the most easy access to a rifle they had for good CQB was type 56 so they went for that
> 
> 
> Exactly Sir it offers various versions in all calibers and in fact soon 7.62 X 39 SCAR is also arriving

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## Basel




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## Path-Finder

Basel said:


>


Are you taunting Hazrat?

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## Army research

Zarvan said:


> Sir in past two years in every SSG picture there is only M4. M4 seems to be new love for SSG. From that I have realized that SSG or Army had no love for 7.62 X 39 caliber only thing was after WOT specially the most easy access to a rifle they had for good CQB was type 56 so they went for that
> 
> 
> Exactly Sir it offers various versions in all calibers and in fact soon 7.62 X 39 SCAR is also arriving


I can confirm that ssg has both type 56 and m4 with the latter being used for cqb ops while the former is used for longer range conflicts with shipping sights fore grip and laser

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## Ahmet Pasha

Army research said:


> I can confirm that ssg has both type 56 and m4 with the latter being used for cqb ops while the former is used for longer range conflicts with shipping sights fore grip and laser



Dude exactly what I said in a previous post. Sans the G-3 maybe.

"5.56 remains in SSG arsenal for special purpose and a particular environment. Mostly with ATUs like Zarrar. Other guns including type 56 and G3 and AUG still serve with SSG. And again that is due to special purposes and mission requirements."

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## Army research

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Dude exactly what I said in a previous post. Sans the G-3 maybe.
> 
> "5.56 remains in SSG arsenal for special purpose and a particular environment. Mostly with ATUs like Zarrar. Other guns including type 56 and G3 and AUG still serve with SSG. And again that is due to special purposes and mission requirements."


Explain this to hazrat [emoji38], kudos

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## Basel

Path-Finder said:


> Are you taunting Hazrat?



Nope, just found that video on YouTube and share it here.

It's said in other video that CZ is not just showing CZ Bren 2 but PDW and Machine gun too.

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## Path-Finder

Basel said:


> Nope, just found that video on YouTube and share it here.
> 
> It's said in other video that CZ is not just showing CZ Bren 2 but PDW and Machine gun too.


I was the first to post this video many pages back and Good God did our Hazrat begin to have Misfire in his cylinders, All sorts of steam was coming out of his engine, hell even Horus got involved which is usually not like him. 

have a look!

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paki...competition-2016.426049/page-243#post-9348124

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## Zarvan

Basel said:


> Nope, just found that video on YouTube and share it here.
> 
> It's said in other video that CZ is not just showing CZ Bren 2 but PDW and Machine gun too.


YES they showed but after that no progress there also. It seem even Baluchistan Police is not interested in getting CZ most likely Army told them about there results


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## Arsalan

Sameer25 said:


> so is there a replacement for the G3 currently. I like want the scar because its modular and 7.62 but it is kind of expensive


Well the whole thread is about that replacement project.  
We are looking to replace our G3 and Type 56. 

The gun in 7.62x39 category is almost final now and awaits formal contract signatures and all (unless something big happen)
7.62x51mm is wide open with SCAR being the first recommendation but now new rifles were brought in as well so no one can be certain about what is happening in that category.


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> YES they showed but after that no progress there also. It seem even Baluchistan Police is not interested in getting CZ most likely Army told them about there results


will they be interested in FN SCAR?


----------



## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> will they be interested in FN SCAR?


SCAR even after selected won't come for Police. SCAR will come for Armed Forces and Para Military that is why I have been suggesting over and over again that if companies are ready to give TOT and most importantly permission to export we should produce more than one Rifle series.


----------



## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> SCAR even after selected won't come for Police. SCAR will come for Armed Forces and Para Military that is why I have been suggesting over and over again that if companies are ready to give TOT and most importantly permission to export we should produce more than one Rifle series.


No Hazrat will police warm to 7.62x39 in FN? as Balochistan police isn't interest because Army warned then that it blows up? strange thing is Army was present at the event and they waited for CZ to arrive and then after the presentation informed the police? 

as everyone else has said a billion times it is not feasible to make more rifles than needed secondly when other countries can produce them under license as well.


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> No Hazrat will police warm to 7.62x39 in FN? as Balochistan police isn't interest because Army warned then that it blows up? strange thing is Army was present at the event and they waited for CZ to arrive and then after the presentation informed the police?
> 
> as everyone else has said a billion times it is not feasible to make more rifles than needed secondly when other countries can produce them under license as well.


Yes Army was present because Army is now slowly taking over recruitment and training of Police Force. But since that report there is total silence and in fact what I know is CZ is one company whose assault Rifles they were testing


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Yes Army was present because Army is now slowly taking over recruitment and training of Police Force. But since that report there is total silence and in fact what I know is CZ is one company whose assault Rifles they were testing



so basically rumors and nothing more!


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## Fieldmarshal

Zarvan said:


> Sir in past two years in every SSG picture there is only M4. M4 seems to be new love for SSG. From that I have realized that SSG or Army had no love for 7.62 X 39 caliber only thing was after WOT specially the most easy access to a rifle they had for good CQB was type 56 so they



The weapon of choice for SSG operatives is the type 56. Which is a 7.62 calibre weapon.
M4 is used for CQB operations n that too some times.


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## Zarvan

Fieldmarshal said:


> The weapon of choice for SSG operatives is the type 56. Which is a 7.62 calibre weapon.
> M4 is used for CQB operations n that too some times.


SSG in past two years are pretty much using M4 only


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## Super Falcon

Army do Saal ho gai sb tu koi choose hi karlo


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## Basel

Zarvan said:


> YES they showed but after that no progress there also. It seem even Baluchistan Police is not interested in getting CZ most likely Army told them about there results



Google and you will know how good CZ Gus are seen in International market due to their performance and if CZ is show PDW and Machine gun too then CZ believe they are in pretty good position.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

TaimiKhan said:


> Ak47 variants still in use. M4s cant do what AK47s can do.
> 
> Plus they have non chinese versions of ak47s as desert fighter said.


Only AK, SSG seems to be using these days is bulgarian AR-Ms and Russian

SSG & LCB:







SSG 2013 training pic












Had a chat with an SSG guy (after Shawal Ops.. he was part of it), according to him type56s were phased out and handed to LCBs... along with accessories..

And all new pics seem to collaborate it.

However Types are used for training..

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## TaimiKhan

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Only AK, SSG seems to be using these days is bulgarian AR-Ms and Russian
> 
> SSG & LCB:
> 
> View attachment 410318
> 
> 
> SSG
> 
> View attachment 410313
> 
> 
> View attachment 410314
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Had a chat with an SSG guy (after Shawal Ops.. he was part of it), according to him type56s were phased out and handed to LCBs... along with accessories..
> 
> And all new pics seem to collaborate it.
> 
> However Types are used for training..


As i said earlier ssg doesnt favors the chinese new ones. They did used the older type 56 which r more reliable ones but prefer non chinese versions. 

But zarav ko kon samghayee, aik baat per arh jata hai.


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## Path-Finder

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Only AK, SSG seems to be using these days is bulgarian AR-Ms and Russian
> 
> SSG & LCB:
> 
> View attachment 410318
> 
> 
> SSG
> 
> View attachment 410313
> 
> 
> View attachment 410314
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Had a chat with an SSG guy (after Shawal Ops.. he was part of it), according to him type56s were phased out and handed to LCBs... along with accessories..
> 
> And all new pics seem to collaborate it.
> 
> However Types are used for training..


any news on rifle trials?


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## django

Is this Bulgarian weapon or Russian @DESERT FIGHTER


----------



## PDF

Why do we not cover the faces of SSG when sharing the pictures online? 
@DESERT FIGHTER @Irfan Baloch @TaimiKhan @Zarvan @Horus 
What is the policy of PDF relating to this matter?


----------



## fitpOsitive

Must retain 7.62.


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## Sameer25

Arsalan said:


> Well the whole thread is about that replacement project.
> We are looking to replace our G3 and Type 56.
> 
> The gun in 7.62x39 category is almost final now and awaits formal contract signatures and all (unless something big happen)
> 7.62x51mm is wide open with SCAR being the first recommendation but now new rifles were brought in as well so no one can be certain about what is happening in that category.


So What Is Our Main Rifle Choice Right now


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## Path-Finder

Sameer25 said:


> So What Is Our Main Rifle Choice Right now


Hazrat @Zarvan aren't you going to answer??


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## Sameer25

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat @Zarvan aren't you going to answer??


Yeah I was expecting an answer too


----------



## sohailbarki

Path-Finder said:


> Are you taunting Hazrat?


what is wrong with you @Path-Finder, why you use 'Hazrat' in every post?

BTW the recoil seems to be very high for CZ bren 7.62x39. In the video we only saw single shots fired i bet in full auto this rifle will be uncontrollable.


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## Path-Finder

sohailbarki said:


> what is wrong with you @Path-Finder, why you use 'Hazrat' in every post?
> 
> BTW the recoil seems to be very high for CZ bren 7.62x39. In the video we only saw single shots fired i bet in full auto this rifle will be uncontrollable.



Hmmn, what is wrong with Hazrat? its not offensive! 

Name me *one *rifle chambered in 7.62 calibre that does not have recoil in full auto fire!!


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## DESERT FIGHTER

django said:


> Is this Bulgarian weapon or Russian @DESERT FIGHTER


Bulgarian.








http://www.arsenal-bg.com/c/assault-rifles-24

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## Muhammad Omar

Bhai sahab aadha July hone ko aaya Faisla nahi aaya k kaun c select ki hai??


----------



## sohailbarki

Path-Finder said:


> Hmmn, what is wrong with Hazrat? its not offensive!
> 
> its not offensive but can be misfit if you use it in every post.


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## Mumm-Ra

Thank heavens, they didn't set out to develop a new service rifle. We would have waited till June 2022.


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## Path-Finder

How is our Hazrat? he disappeared ~suddenly @sohailbarki


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> How is our Hazrat? he disappeared ~suddenly @sohailbarki


If you are talking about me I am here


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## Path-Finder

How is our Hazrat? he disappeared ~suddenly


Zarvan said:


> If you are talking about me I am here


Who else can I be talking about!


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## niaz

Path-Finder said:


> Hmmn, what is wrong with Hazrat? its not offensive!
> 
> Name me *one *rifle chambered in 7.62 calibre that does not have recoil in full auto fire!!



Correct.

Remember our high school physics - the law of Conservation of Momentum? In other words, when you fire a pistol, gun or a rifle, you impart momentum to the bullet which is equal to the mass of the bullet multiplied by its speed. The gun recoils because an equal momentum is created in the opposite direction; thus net momentum remains zero.

The above is an immutable fact and every gun will have a kick / recoil. The emphasis on design is how to balance the gun so that the negative momentum is distributed in such a way that recoil is kept to minimum. In my time the recoil was measured in foot pounds now it must be in the meters kg (?). I had effect of the recoil on my shot guns reduced by having a lighter trigger and improving shape of the stock. For the rifle standard way is through the muzzle break.

Reducing the size of the bullet and the charge will reduce the overall size of the negative momentum and consequently reduce the kick as well. Conversely, larger calibre and higher range will necessarily have larger recoil / kick.

On the same basis, everything else being the same, single shot rifle will have lesser recoil than semi- automatic. On full auto, any rifle firing 500 rounds per minute will have strong enough recoil that it would be difficult to keep the barrel straight which in effect means wastage of the ammunition. Keeping soldier well supplied with bullets on the battle field is a major logistics problem that is why British soldiers fought the Falklands war with the semi-automatic rifles. This is true even for the 5.56 ammo albeit effort required to keep the rifle straight is much less.

Rifle and ammunition manufacturers spend years & millions on research to create a product that is the best combination of durability, reliability, accuracy, rate of fire, range and stopping power. That is why modern rifles are so expensive.

Pak Army is using 50 year old designs. All state of the art rifles will have less kick than G-3 & AK-47; however, no matter what, if you stick to 7.62 calibre, your soldiers will have to learn to cope with a bigger ‘Kick’ than those using 5.56 ammo.

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## Arsalan

Sameer25 said:


> So What Is Our Main Rifle Choice Right now


Currently we use G-3.
The replacement is not announced officially but it looks like CZ Bern will be coming for 7.62x39mm and the x51mm is till open and under evaluation. Lets see. NOTHING IS CONFIRM OF 100% OFFICIAL TILL NOW.


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## Sameer25

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Bulgarian.
> 
> View attachment 410646
> View attachment 410647
> 
> http://www.arsenal-bg.com/c/assault-rifles-24


russian weopons are reliable but they are not always accurate



Arsalan said:


> Currently we use G-3.
> The replacement is not announced officially but it looks like CZ Bern will be coming for 7.62x39mm and the x51mm is till open and under evaluation. Lets see. NOTHING IS CONFIRM OF 100% OFFICIAL TILL NOW.


the CZ is OK but i like the SCAR better. so if we get a new rifle, my question is if the rifle is going to be bare or is it going to have optics, adjustable stocks, fore grips and other attachments on it. is the Pakistan army gonna give every solider a weapon with loaded attachments like the Americans or is Pakistan gonna keep it simple and give everyone a bare rifle?


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## Path-Finder

Sameer25 said:


> russian weopons are reliable but they are not always accurate
> 
> 
> the CZ is OK but i like the SCAR better. so if we get a new rifle, my question is if the rifle is going to be bare or is it going to have optics, adjustable stocks, fore grips and other attachments on it. is the Pakistan army gonna give every solider a weapon with loaded attachments like the Americans or is Pakistan gonna keep it simple and give everyone a bare rifle?


look FN SCAR was the best rifle in Trials. yes sights, grenade launcher and all the accessories will be obtained.


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## Sameer25

Path-Finder said:


> look FN SCAR was the best rifle in Trials. yes sights, grenade launcher and all the accessories will be obtained.


i really hope the SCAR gets picked, i dont want another russian weopon. the scar is a good modern weopon

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## Path-Finder

Sameer25 said:


> i really hope the SCAR gets picked, i dont want another russian weopon. the scar is a good modern weopon


have you gone through the whole thread? from the beginning? I would highly recommend it to you! It will shed light on, FN SCAR the best rifle in trials


----------



## Sameer25

Path-Finder said:


> have you gone through the whole thread? from the beginning? I would highly recommend it to you! It will shed light on, FN SCAR the best rifle in trials


this thread has almost 5000 replies, l really dont wanna read than much

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## Awan68

Path-Finder said:


> offensive how?


That payambir and nabuwat bs, seriously there is a limit....even fun has a threshold, have some class.

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## Path-Finder

Awan68 said:


> That payambir and nabuwat bs, seriously there is a limit....even fun has a threshold, have some class.


oh, sarkar. I didn't poke any fun of Nabuwat. Please have another read of that message. I am not that stupid to make mockery of Payambry or Nabuwat.


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## Awan68

Path-Finder said:


> oh, sarkar. I didn't poke any fun of Nabuwat. Please have another read of that message. I am not that stupid to make mockery of Payambry or Nabuwat.


Sarkar u used the concepts to mock another individual, these things are not something u further ur sarcaism with, openly karty bhi ho aur phir manty bhi nhn ho, ap nawaz shareef to nhn ho..


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## Path-Finder

Awan68 said:


> Sarkar u used the concepts to mock another individual, these things are not something u further ur sarcaism with, openly karty bhi ho aur phir manty bhi nhn ho, ap nawaz shareef to nhn ho..



Sarkar, Allah knows better what I meant and *only* Allah will judge me! I had *NO* intention to make mockery. I will not discuss it further.


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## Awan68

Path-Finder said:


> Sarkar, Allah knows better what I meant and *only* Allah will judge me! I had *NO* intention to make mockery. I will not discuss it further.


To yar men kon sa ap ke peche mob le ke a rha hun bhai, im not judging u or accusing u of anything niether am i doubting ur intentions, im merily stating that mistakes can happen in language and its ok to heed genuine sincere advice and correct them and ofcourse Allah will judge us all, im not claiming any moral superiority, u might a far better muslims than me...


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## Path-Finder

Awan68 said:


> To yar men kon sa ap ke peche mob le ke a rha hun bhai, im not judging u or accusing u of anything niether am i doubting ur intentions, im merily stating that mistakes can happen in language and its ok to heed genuine sincere advice and correct them and ofcourse Allah will judge us all, im not claiming any moral superiority, u might a far better muslims than me...


Maffi mein rakho sarkar.


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## Arsalan

Sameer25 said:


> russian weopons are reliable but they are not always accurate
> 
> 
> the CZ is OK but i like the SCAR better. so if we get a new rifle, my question is if the rifle is going to be bare or is it going to have optics, adjustable stocks, fore grips and other attachments on it. is the Pakistan army gonna give every solider a weapon with loaded attachments like the Americans or is Pakistan gonna keep it simple and give everyone a bare rifle?


SCAR is GREAT on paper atleast and did well during evaluation as well. However there have been countles reports of problems with SCAR on active duty from different customers over the globe. Many forces have had problems with it. y be that is a reason that we are looking into more options in 7.56x51mm category. Plus there is the financial aspect as well. In 7.56x39mm however, it is likely that CZ will win it. Let see what happens.

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## Path-Finder

Arsalan said:


> SCAR is GREAT on paper atleast and did well during evaluation as well. However there have been countles reports of problems with SCAR on active duty from different customers over the globe. Many forces have had problems with it. y be that is a reason that we are looking into more options in 7.56x51mm category. Plus there is the financial aspect as well. In 7.56x39mm however, it is likely that CZ will win it. Let see what happens.



strange its been 5 minutes and there has not been a defence for FN SCAR so far.


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## Zarvan

Sameer25 said:


> i really hope the SCAR gets picked, i dont want another russian weopon. the scar is a good modern weopon


SCAR will most likely get picked


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> SCAR will most likely get picked


Hazrat koi new date for the conclusion of Trials?


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## Windjammer

*Pakistan Army soldier takes aim with Azb DMR rifle fitted with Shibli Thermal Sight
produced by Pakistan.*

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## Ahmet Pasha

Thunder.Storm said:


> infantryman takes aim with his G3P4 battle rifle.
> 
> G3P4 in the picture is fitted with a Shibli TARSIER Thermal Weapon Sight. The sight has detection capabilities of up to 2.5 Km for humans & 4.0 Km for vehicles, it weighs less than 1.8 Kg and can run for more than 10 hours on 4 AA batteries.
> 
> The operating temperature of the sight is -35°C to +55°C. @Zarvan @Path-Finder @Arsalan



Why dont pakistani weapons manufacturers name their products with a cool awesome sounding name?? Like the super hornet, honey badger, raptor. Etc

I think that such names also help in marketing the product as many people worldwide would what a hawk is versus what an uqaab is??


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## Thunder.Storm

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Why dont pakistani weapons manufacturers name their products with a cool awesome sounding name?? Like the super hornet, honey badger, raptor. Etc
> 
> I think that such names also help in marketing the product as many people worldwide would what a hawk is versus what an uqaab is??


Your question is right. But you know the people who work there, they doing work for salary. I think they should have developed the rifle by themselves, if they can get nukes why they can't develop battlefield rifle, sniper and dmr.they had experience of g3 tot with little R&D wasn't possible for them to develop.


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## Arsalan

Thunder.Storm said:


> Your question is right. But you know the people who work there, they doing work for salary. I think they should have developed the rifle by themselves, if they can get nukes why they can't develop battlefield rifle, sniper and dmr.they had experience of g3 tot with little R&D wasn't possible for them to develop.


because you cannot buy a nuclear weapon but you can buy guns that is financially more viable and sensible

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## Thunder.Storm

Arsalan said:


> because you cannot buy a nuclear weapon but you can buy guns that is financially more viable and sensible


Agreed. But what if we had our own Small arms products like rifle sniper etc. We could export that and get huge $$$. But now we will give huge $$$


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## Bossman

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Why dont pakistani weapons manufacturers name their products with a cool awesome sounding name?? Like the super hornet, honey badger, raptor. Etc
> 
> I think that such names also help in marketing the product as many people worldwide would what a hawk is versus what an uqaab is??



Because that is your westerncentric mindset and not theirs. The world is bigger than your narrow perspective.

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## Awan68

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Why dont pakistani weapons manufacturers name their products with a cool awesome sounding name?? Like the super hornet, honey badger, raptor. Etc
> 
> I think that such names also help in marketing the product as many people worldwide would what a hawk is versus what an uqaab is??


This is the single most ridiculous statement i've heard to date, when will people like u own ur own culture, bloody mumi daddy yo yo's.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Bossman said:


> Because that is your westerncentric mindset and not theirs. The world is bigger than your narrow perspective.



Reverse psychology of ur comment could that maybe folks in Pak arms industries are too narrow minded to not have a global perspective and dnt have high aspirations. 



Awan68 said:


> This is the single most ridiculous statement i've heard to date, when will people like u own ur own culture, bloody mumi daddy yo yo's.


Bro dnt make this an ego issue. It was just a question in my mind that I was thinking about. Overseas Pakistanis are the largest source of remittances, foreign exchange and revenues for Pakistan. Especially for the fat customs officer standing at the airport


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## Zarvan




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## DESERT FIGHTER

Thunder.Storm said:


> infantryman takes aim with his G3P4 battle rifle.
> 
> G3P4 in the picture is fitted with a Shibli TARSIER Thermal Weapon Sight. The sight has detection capabilities of up to 2.5 Km for humans & 4.0 Km for vehicles, it weighs less than 1.8 Kg and can run for more than 10 hours on 4 AA batteries.
> 
> The operating temperature of the sight is -35°C to +55°C. @Zarvan @Path-Finder @Arsalan


Thats AZB DMR not G3P4

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## Arsalan

Thunder.Storm said:


> Agreed. But what if we had our own Small arms products like rifle sniper etc. We could export that and get huge $$$. But now we will give huge $$$


The replacement deal include a complete ToT with license to export to other nations, no questions asked. Once it is signed, we will practically have all rights to the rifle that we will produce. Anything that we can get from a locally developed gun.

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## Amaa'n

Zarvan said:


>


for some odd reason SCAR looks like a toy gun to me with all that plastic on it ---- a beefed up /kitted AR got its own charm & looks bad *** ----- & personally speaking its less bulky as compared to SCAR


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## Path-Finder

balixd said:


> for some odd reason SCAR looks like a toy gun to me with all that plastic on it ---- a beefed up /kitted AR got its own charm & looks bad *** ----- & personally speaking its less bulky as compared to SCAR


Blasphemy . Welcome to SCAR haters club


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## Bossman

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Reverse psychology of ur comment could that maybe folks in Pak arms industries are too narrow minded to not have a global perspective and dnt have high aspirations.
> 
> 
> Bro dnt make this an ego issue. It was just a question in my mind that I was thinking about. Overseas Pakistanis are the largest source of remittances, foreign exchange and revenues for Pakistan. Especially for the fat customs officer standing at the airport


Typical expatriate mindset. It is not where you live but what you do that matters. You are acting like Mastan. What expertise do you have to make sort of judgments you are making? What do you know about the global weapons trade?


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## Sameer25

Arsalan said:


> SCAR is GREAT on paper atleast and did well during evaluation as well. However there have been countles reports of problems with SCAR on active duty from different customers over the globe. Many forces have had problems with it. y be that is a reason that we are looking into more options in 7.56x51mm category. Plus there is the financial aspect as well. In 7.56x39mm however, it is likely that CZ will win it. Let see what happens.


i think Pakistan has enough ingenuity to fix said problems but i think the major problems are cost



Zarvan said:


> SCAR will most likely get picked


yes!!! pakistan is finally getting modern firearms



Zarvan said:


>


are those pakistani soliders, if so what branch is that because ive never seen that camo before



Windjammer said:


> *Pakistan Army soldier takes aim with Azb DMR rifle fitted with Shibli Thermal Sight
> produced by Pakistan.*


thats a G3P4 btw and are those new helmets? they look american and new and i though our helmets were different


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## Path-Finder

Sameer25 said:


> i think Pakistan has enough ingenuity to fix said problems but i think the major problems are cost


 Do you know the problems and the cost to fix the problems?


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## Arsalan

Sameer25 said:


> i think Pakistan has enough ingenuity to fix said problems but i think the major problems are cost


You dont buy the most expensive gadget out of the lot just to fix the problems yourself! We could have argued about this is SCAR was a cheaper option, then we could have said that the gun is nice, it is cheap and whatever problems there are we can fix them. Here it is a case of opting for the most expensive gun of them all saying that we still will need to fix some issues (if there are as per reports from other countries where the gun had problems in active service)


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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> You dont buy the most expensive gadget out of the lot just to fix the problems yourself! We could have argued about this is SCAR was a cheaper option, then we could have said that the gun is nice, it is cheap and whatever problems there are we can fix them. Here it is a case of opting for the most expensive gun of them all saying that we still will need to fix some issues (if there are as per reports from other countries where the gun had problems in active service)


It passed our tests if there would have been issues it would have not passed tests in first place

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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> It passed our tests if there would have been issues it would have not passed tests in first place


The other countries must have tested it too and inducted ONLY after the tests were cleared. However once in service, there were issues.


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## Path-Finder

Arsalan said:


> The other countries must have tested it too and inducted ONLY after the tests were cleared. However once in service, there were issues.


Arsalan I have repeated the same thing trillion times BUT when bande ne bas keh dita ke nahi gal sunnay ya mannai te ke kare banda. insaan hona whi lazmi eh.

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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> The other countries must have tested it too and inducted ONLY after the tests were cleared. However once in service, there were issues.


I give a dam about what they did but if a Rifle manages to pass tests in temperatures which I doubt other countries test Rifles in than I have serious question on there trials


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> I give a dam about what they did but if a Rifle manages to pass tests in temperatures which I doubt other countries test Rifles in than I have serious question on there trials


we give a damn Hazrat. other nations tests it fail and gets black listed but passes here according to you. 2 years and we have no answer *how*!!!!!!


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## Sameer25

Arsalan said:


> You dont buy the most expensive gadget out of the lot just to fix the problems yourself! We could have argued about this is SCAR was a cheaper option, then we could have said that the gun is nice, it is cheap and whatever problems there are we can fix them. Here it is a case of opting for the most expensive gun of them all saying that we still will need to fix some issues (if there are as per reports from other countries where the gun had problems in active service)


if we buy the SCAR we will get tot and we will produce it in POF. IF (highly unlikely) there is an issue we can fix it in manufacturing. The Scar is an amazing weapon with modularity and it can highly increase our solider's efficiency. There is a reason why american special forces use the scar

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## Path-Finder

Sameer25 said:


> if we buy the SCAR we will get tot and we will produce it in POF. IF (highly unlikely) there is an issue we can fix it in manufacturing. The Scar is an amazing weapon with modularity and it can highly increase our solider's efficiency. There is a reason why american special forces use the scar



Ahhh. It's *not *the job of Pakistan to fix issues of a product after it has been purchased. FN since making the rifle has not once release an updated improved variant of the FN SCAR line. Only FN can fix the faults. Other manufacturers like bushmaster who made ARX for the SCAR trials by SOCOM have made a version 2. Even though they did not win they improved the design and now it receives positive review same with Colt and their CM901.

FN to date have made *no *improvement to the design.

Do you know the faults with FN SCAR? why the people who adopted it US SOCOM are now shelving the very short lived SCAR program?


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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> I give a dam about what they did but if a Rifle manages to pass tests in temperatures which I doubt other countries test Rifles in than I have serious question on there trials


Fortunately, you giving a damn do not changes the facts!


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## mdcp

Problem with Pakistan is poor leadership in all departments which lead to poor results.

POF should have been making state of art weapons for civilians, police as well as army so generated revenues could have been spent on further research and also gain economies of scale. Also no need to reinvent wheel and raise your standard and choose best weapon from world and make a business deal and start benefiting from it rather waste time and resources on ordinary projects.


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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> Fortunately, you giving a damn do not changes the facts!


Yes the fact is Pakistan tested the rifle in -50 to 54 C temperatures and guess what SCAR passed all the tests so yes that is the big fact and it won't change


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Yes the fact is Pakistan tested the rifle in -50 to 54 C temperatures and guess what SCAR passed all the tests so yes that is the big fact and it won't change


why did it fail in other nations and *only* pass in Pakistan?

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## Arsalan

Sameer25 said:


> if we buy the SCAR we will get tot and we will produce it in POF. IF (highly unlikely) there is an issue we can fix it in manufacturing. The Scar is an amazing weapon with modularity and it can highly increase our solider's efficiency. There is a reason why american special forces use the scar


The US special forces are taking these back from active duty. so....

Even if we ignore this, the point is that SCAR is the most expensive gun under evaluation. It makes no sense to choose the most expensive gun knownibg that we will have to resolve some issues. You make that compromise if that gun with some problems that you plan to fix comes as a cheaper option than others. Then it will make sense tht we decide that ok we will go for this and save money as we can later resolve the problems. Buying the most expensive weapons knowing that we will have to modify it later. Just saying!



mdcp said:


> Also no need to reinvent wheel and raise your standard and choose best weapon from world and make a business deal and start benefiting from it rather waste time and resources on ordinary projects.


Have you checked the thread and do you know what we are doing?
This is the idea, that is what we are planning to do. Buy a gun with ToT and full rights, make it ourself and even export it. This is all part of the package, when it is finalized!!


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## Sameer25

Path-Finder said:


> Ahhh. It's *not *the job of Pakistan to fix issues of a product after it has been purchased. FN since making the rifle has not once release an updated improved variant of the FN SCAR line. Only FN can fix the faults. Other manufacturers like bushmaster who made ARX for the SCAR trials by SOCOM have made a version 2. Even though they did not win they improved the design and now it receives positive review same with Colt and their CM901.
> 
> FN to date have made *no *improvement to the design.
> 
> Do you know the faults with FN SCAR? why the people who adopted it US SOCOM are now shelving the very short lived SCAR program?


look, it is going throw testing for a reason. if it has issues the Army would know and not induct it


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## Mitho1980

Did PA consider hk417? 
We tot for g3 maybe we get tot for 417


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## Path-Finder

Mitho1980 said:


> Did PA consider hk417?
> We tot for g3 maybe we get tot for 417


HK wont sell to non NATO countries.



Sameer25 said:


> look, it is going throw testing for a reason. if it has issues the Army would know and not induct it


you clearly did not understand what I or Arsalan said.


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## Mitho1980

If u dont mind hk 417 was designed to replace g3. Samw role g3 was designed for. For me scar is to plasticy for common infantry.


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## Sameer25

Path-Finder said:


> HK wont sell to non NATO countries.
> 
> 
> you clearly did not understand what I or Arsalan said.


I understood what you guys said. the army knows what its doing, it has better knowlege than all of us so i trust them.

100th post. i really enjoy this forum  promotion

i didnt get a promotion?


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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> Yes the fact is Pakistan tested the rifle in -50 to 54 C temperatures and guess what SCAR passed all the tests so yes that is the big fact and it won't change



True!
AND
the fact is that the gun faced problems everywhere else even though they also tested it but there are some issues every time the gun in inducted for field use.


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## LegitimateIdiot

Windjammer said:


> *Pakistan Army soldier takes aim with Azb DMR rifle fitted with Shibli Thermal Sight
> produced by Pakistan.*


advanced sight , outdated gun



Sameer25 said:


> I understood what you guys said. the army knows what its doing, it has better knowlege than all of us so i trust them.
> 
> 100th post. i really enjoy this forum  promotion
> 
> i didnt get a promotion?


STOP COMPLAINING I HAVE BEEN ON THIS WEBSITE A YEAR MORE THAN YOU AND I HAVE NOT GOT PROMOTED


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## Amaa'n

Path-Finder said:


> Blasphemy . Welcome to SCAR haters club


and here I was thinking my post has been ignored, cuz i didn't see the alert ----
not a SCAR hater, just stating a fact, Metal is metal , SCAR is bulky whatever configure it is in ----- AR SBR all the way

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## Sameer25

LegitimateIdiot said:


> advanced sight , outdated gun
> 
> 
> STOP COMPLAINING I HAVE BEEN ON THIS WEBSITE A YEAR MORE THAN YOU AND I HAVE NOT GOT PROMOTED


I Got Promoted, Its act your 101th post


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

LegitimateIdiot said:


> advanced sight , outdated gun
> 
> 
> STOP COMPLAINING I HAVE BEEN ON THIS WEBSITE A YEAR MORE THAN YOU AND I HAVE NOT GOT PROMOTED


How is that outdated ?

Its a DMR which uses G-3 body...

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## Sameer25

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> How is that outdated ?
> 
> Its a DMR which uses G-3 body...
> 
> View attachment 412354
> View attachment 412355
> View attachment 412356


they should of used a differenct picture for the target. that seems inacurate. it shouldve all been in the all in the white circle


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Sameer25 said:


> they should of used a differenct picture for the target. that seems inacurate. it shouldve all been in the all in the white circle


Not everyone is an olympic shooter.


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## Path-Finder

Sameer25 said:


> they should of used a differenct picture for the target. that seems inacurate. it shouldve all been in the all in the white circle


you live in the US and clearly you don't shoot, If I did then I would be at the range. The grouping of the shots is what counts not hitting bulls eye

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## Sameer25

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Not everyone is an olympic shooter.


thats why its a marksman rifle!!!



Path-Finder said:


> you live in the US and clearly you don't shoot, If I did then I would be at the range. The grouping of the shots is what counts not hitting bulls eye


ive shot many guns, i shot a g3 once when i was 10 so that doesnt count, but i shoot M-16s AR-15 ans M4s regularly. he has a marksman rifle with a ACOG. He was also prone. I dont wanna assume the range but when i shoot at a hundred yards, prone, only the first shot is off target and then i adjust the sights and can get a group as tight as a 3-5in diameter

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## LegitimateIdiot

Sameer25 said:


> I Got Promoted, Its act your 101th post


BS



Sameer25 said:


> thats why its a marksman rifle!!!
> 
> 
> ive shot many guns, i shot a g3 once when i was 10 so that doesnt count, but i shoot M-16s AR-15 ans M4s regularly. he has a marksman rifle with a ACOG. He was also prone. I dont wanna assume the range but when i shoot at a hundred yards, prone, only the first shot is off target and then i adjust the sights and can get a group as tight as a 3-5in diameter


i remember shooting my little brother with a spud gun when we were younger


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## s.k

*Minister Thanks Czech Republic To Support Pakistan For Getting GSP Plus Status In EU*

ISLAMABAD, July 19 (APP): Minister for Defence Production, Rana Tanveer Hussain thanked Czech Republic for its consistent support to Pakistan for getting GSP plus status in the European Union (EU). The minister expressed this when Ambassador of Czech Republic, Jon Fury, called on him here and discussed new avenues of defence cooperation between the two countries, a press release said.

Secretary Defence Production Lt Gen (Retd) Muhammad Ijaz Chaudhry, was also present in the meeting. Welcoming the ambassador, the minister thanked for invitation to visit Czech Republic and expressed optimism about potential of the military and defence industrial relations between Pakistan and Czech Republic. During the meeting he said two countries share commonality of views on various issues of international importance and hoped the Czech Republic would continue to lend its support during the review process of the GSP Plus Scheme. He acknowledged the fact that both the countries had greater potential in the field of defence production which needed to be explored for the mutual benefits of the two sides.

Rana Tanveer Hussain said Pakistan is keen to promote closer partnership and meaningful defence cooperation with Czech Republic. He also hoped that Pakistan and Czech Republic would pave the way for promoting and strengthening closer defence cooperation. He offered defence industries products/services of POF, HIT, PAC and NRTC etc. The ambassador also asked that both countries are strategic partners. Czech Republic has long tradition of defence industry and reliable technology. Both countries can utilize Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) signed in 2010 to increase military and defence cooperation between the two countries.

Source:
http://pakchinanews.pk/minister-thanks-czech-republic-support-pakistan-getting-gsp-plus-status-eu/

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## Thunder.Storm

I heard some rumor that cz will improve the 7.62 x 39 version according to Pakistan standard and then it will open its way to pak for more testing and then induction. Can any buddy Confirm this?
@Path-Finder @TheOccupiedKashmir @Zarvan


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## Path-Finder

Thunder.Storm said:


> I heard some rumor that cz will improve the 7.62 x 39 version according to Pakistan standard and then it will open its way to pak for more testing and then induction. Can any buddy Confirm this?
> @Path-Finder @TheOccupiedKashmir @Zarvan


SCAR was the best rifle in trials


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## Zarvan

Thunder.Storm said:


> I heard some rumor that cz will improve the 7.62 x 39 version according to Pakistan standard and then it will open its way to pak for more testing and then induction. Can any buddy Confirm this?
> @Path-Finder @TheOccupiedKashmir @Zarvan


That is possible because current version was bad really bad it had to go through changes to meet our requirements so if they manage to do it than it can go ahead but it would have to pass our tests.


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## Ahmet Pasha

Sitrep???


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## Arsalan

@Horus got the news regarding delay? Any confirmation from your side? It seems legit from where i got it. CZ mentioned as well!


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## Path-Finder

Arsalan said:


> @Horus got the news regarding delay? Any confirmation from your side? It seems legit from where i got it. CZ mentioned as well!


han ji? what happened? what delay?

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## TaimiKhan

@Zarvan

See ak47s still in use by ssg guys, just today saw 2 fully loaded vehicles with ssg guys all with ak47s. 





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1750533935244053

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## Zarvan

TaimiKhan said:


> @Zarvan
> 
> See ak47s still in use by ssg guys, just today saw 2 fully loaded vehicles with ssg guys all with ak47s.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1750533935244053


The Guys carrying AK are LCB not SSG the SSG are with M4



Path-Finder said:


> han ji? what happened? what delay?


CZ has not satisfied our guys so either they would make changes and come back or we would look for some other rifle in x 39 category and as for X 51 Rifles are going under more tests.


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> The Guys carrying AK are LCB not SSG the SSG are with M4
> 
> 
> CZ has not satisfied our guys so either they would make changes and come back or we would look for some other rifle in x 39 category and as for X 51 Rifles are going under more tests.


SCAR was the best rifle in trials. We know Hazrat


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## Zarvan



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## muhammadali233

Zarvan said:


>


ARMA


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## Gryphon

Belomo sights are currently under trials which will conclude soon.

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## Path-Finder

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Belomo sights are currently under trials which will conclude soon.


what is happening with trials? things seem stagnant?

Belomo sights!

http://belomo.by/en/catalog/optical...riceli_kollimatornie_dlya_strelkovogo_orujiya


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## Gryphon

Path-Finder said:


> what is happening with trials? things seem stagnant?
> 
> Belomo sights!
> 
> http://belomo.by/en/catalog/optical...riceli_kollimatornie_dlya_strelkovogo_orujiya



In x51 category, Colt weapon being trialed along with retesting of CZ and Sig .

Negotiations are underway with CZ (probably for x39). In April, CZ official told me 'final stage' could take few months.

Thats all I know.

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## Kompromat

You need to quit trolling this thread. 



Path-Finder said:


> SCAR was the best rifle in trials. We know Hazrat


----------



## Path-Finder

Horus said:


> You need to quit trolling this thread.


Ji hazoor


----------



## Kompromat

Americans have jumped in. That's causing the delay. None of them will offer TOT, a basic contract requirement. They will be politely refused, but it is causing delays. 



Arsalan said:


> @Horus got the news regarding delay? Any confirmation from your side? It seems legit from where i got it. CZ mentioned as well!



I doubt very much that Army is re-testing CZ. Colt, Sig and others are going to be tested. 



TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> In x51 category, Colt weapon being trialed along with retesting of CZ and Sig .
> 
> Negotiations are underway with CZ (probably for x39). In April, CZ official told me 'final stage' could take few months.
> 
> Thats all I know.

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## Zarvan

Horus said:


> Americans have jumped in. That's causing the delay. None of them will offer TOT, a basic contract requirement. They will be politely refused, but it is causing delays.
> 
> 
> 
> I doubt very much that Army is re-testing CZ. Colt, Sig and others are going to be tested.


Finally you responded



Horus said:


> Americans have jumped in. That's causing the delay. None of them will offer TOT, a basic contract requirement. They will be politely refused, but it is causing delays.
> 
> 
> 
> I doubt very much that Army is re-testing CZ. Colt, Sig and others are going to be tested.


Will SIG offer TOT ?


----------



## Kompromat

Highly unlikely 



Zarvan said:


> Finally you responded
> 
> 
> Will SIG offer TOT ?

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## Arsalan

Horus said:


> Americans have jumped in. That's causing the delay. None of them will offer TOT, a basic contract requirement. They will be politely refused, but it is causing delays.
> 
> 
> 
> I doubt very much that Army is re-testing CZ. Colt, Sig and others are going to be tested.


Nops, not being retested in x39 anyway.
It seem that i got the right info as well since you are saying almost the same things. 1) Delay is confirmed,2)reason being new American players and 3) the fact that they are likely to be denied, back to square one. CZ remains here and is most likely in x39. This is the news i received.

Also x51 is even further away. We may not hear anything official about the winner earlier than x39 announcement.

Lets see.

@TheOccupiedKashmir



Path-Finder said:


> han ji? what happened? what delay?

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## Ahmet Pasha

Defence minister visited czech republic.

Bren has been purchased and manuals are being handed out to servicemen


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## Path-Finder

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Defence minister visited czech republic.
> 
> Bren has been purchased and manuals are being handed out to servicemen



hain, when? I saw the news of Defence minister meeting defence production but that's it!


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## Ahmet Pasha

Path-Finder said:


> hain, when? I saw the news of Defence minister meeting defence production but that's it!


I have a friend on facebook his nana's friends grandson is in MoD and his cousin is in POF. Solid credibility. Aik daum jhakas


----------



## Path-Finder

Ahmet Pasha said:


> I have a friend on facebook his nana's friends grandson is in MoD and his cousin is in POF. Solid credibility. Aik daum jhakas


careful, Horus will tell you off.


----------



## Path-Finder

another mark against the FN SCAR

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## Thunder.Storm

Path-Finder said:


> another mark against the FN SCAR


in this video he says that in afghanstan american and british find scar too light weight. am i right? and that was the problem in scar.?


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## Taygibay

Thunder.Storm said:


> find scar too light weight. am i right? and that was the problem in scar.?



Yes mate, because it moves under firing and you have to reset your gun to sight again.

Good day to you, Tay.

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## Path-Finder

Thunder.Storm said:


> in this video he says that in afghanstan american and british find scar too light weight. am i right? and that was the problem in scar.?


well there are several issues with it. among them is the polymer stock breaking, optics being damaged due to heavy recoil the lower receiver being polymer means recoil is not managed properly. The magazine's break as well because FN used old FAL magazines with modification that weakened it! 

To date FN has not made any attempt to correct these issues however third party have stepped in to supply high quality stocks. Metallic lowers replacing polymers making the recoil absorption manageable and preventing optics being damaged. High quality polymer magazines!

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## The Fist

Pakistan has paced up work to manufacture Al Khalid II tanks *while production of modern assault rifles is also in final stages. *The country is also producing state of the art bulletproof jackets.’

This information was shared by the Minister for Defense Production Rana Tanveer Hussain while briefing the Senate Standing Committee on Defense Production
https://propakistani.pk/2017/07/27/pakistan-produce-al-khalid-ii-tanks/

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## Bossman

Horus said:


> Americans have jumped in. That's causing the delay. None of them will offer TOT, a basic contract requirement. They will be politely refused, but it is causing delays.
> 
> 
> 
> I doubt very much that Army is re-testing CZ. Colt, Sig and others are going to be tested.



The Americans are trying to derail the process like they did in the late 1950s which led to delay in introduction of G3 by almost a decade. Pakistan had selected the G3 to replace the Lee Enfield but the yanks jumped in and gave WW2 vintages M1 for free.


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## Zarvan

The Fist said:


> Pakistan has paced up work to manufacture Al Khalid II tanks *while production of modern assault rifles is also in final stages. *The country is also producing state of the art bulletproof jackets.’
> 
> This information was shared by the Minister for Defense Production Rana Tanveer Hussain while briefing the Senate Standing Committee on Defense Production
> https://propakistani.pk/2017/07/27/pakistan-produce-al-khalid-ii-tanks/


@Horus this is interesting let see what happens


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## Gryphon

Pakistan has paced up work to manufacture Al Khalid II tanks while production of modern assault rifles is also in final stages. The country is also producing the state of the bullet proof jackets.
The information was shared by Minister for Defense Production Rana Tanveer Hussain and the officials of organizations engaged in defense production while briefing the senate standing committee on defense production

http://pakobserver.net/summary-construction-gwadar-shipyard-sent-pm-approval/

Another marquee deal for the Czech industry was Ceska Zbrojovka's agreement to supply the elite French anti-terrorist unit GIGN with an initial order of 68 Bren 2 assault rifles.

The company -- which produced the original Bren assault rifle for British troops in World War I -- is now targeting other foreign militaries and elite units, including a deal to supply the Pakistan military with assault rifles.

"The deal with France is a huge reference because the GIGN unit buys the best weapons in the world and makes us seen as a very competitive player," Ceska Zbrojovka Chief Executive Lubomir Kovarik told Reuters.

The company, whose rivals include Germany's Heckler & Koch, U.S. gun maker Colt and Italy's Beretta, plans to produce 300,000 weapons in 2017 -- double the production six years ago, Kovarik said.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-czech-arms-idUSKBN1AB0JU

Vitkovice Machinery Group (VMG) of the Czech Republic started up-gradation and modernisation of Wah Brass Mills in 2012. The VMG was established in 1828 and it is one of the largest engineering groups in the Central Europe. The up-gradation and modernisation of Wah Brass Mills by the VMG is an eloquent testimony to burgeoning relations between Pakistan and the Czech Republic. 

http://www.mofa.gov.pk/czechrepublic/pr-details.php?prID=4762

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## Thunder.Storm



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## Reichsmarschall

So which Rifle are we going to buy??


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## Zarvan



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## ali_raza

Bossman said:


> The Americans are trying to derail the process like they did in the late 1950s which led to delay in introduction of G3 by almost a decade. Pakistan had selected the G3 to replace the Lee Enfield but the yanks jumped in and gave WW2 vintages M1 for free.


any more stories about that era?

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## Thunder.Storm

DPMS GII





MR762A1





*SR-25 E2*
*



*

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## Path-Finder

Beat FN SCAR & HK 417


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## Zarvan



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## Ahmet Pasha

Scar mania 


Zarvan said:


>


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## Muhammad Omar

2 years are now passed when they gonna select the rifle???


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## Ahmet Pasha

What do u say bro????
Lots of silence on this thread????


Path-Finder said:


> Beat FN SCAR & HK 417


----------



## Zarvan

Muhammad Omar said:


> 2 years are now passed when they gonna select the rifle???


Everyone is waiting arrival of USA companies along with political situation delayed the matter but now new PM is in so let see what happens and when


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## Path-Finder

Ahmet Pasha said:


> What do u say bro????
> Lots of silence on this thread????


well Horus is on my case because I lock horns with our Hazrat. But yes Lewis Machine & Tool AR beat HK417 and the rifle that was the best in trials!!! To become British L129A1 sharpshooter rifle and it won trials in New Zealand as well. So If Pakistan invests money in a good Machining and Tooling organisation then yes Rifles among many other things can be made in Pakistan.


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## Ahmet Pasha

Path-Finder said:


> well Horus is on my case because I lock horns with our Hazrat. But yes Lewis Machine & Tool AR beat HK417 and the rifle that was the best in trials!!! To become British L129A1 sharpshooter rifle and it won trials in New Zealand as well. So If Pakistan invests money in a good Machining and Tooling organisation then yes Rifles among many other things can be made in Pakistan.



Pakistanis and actually developing something on their own?....
They just wanna get something readymade.


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## Path-Finder

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Pakistanis and actually developing something on their own?....
> They just wanna get something readymade.


its happening now not everything can achieved over night. at least it has started.


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## Ahmet Pasha

Yeah project Azm is one. I hope they make a mean ***, kick *** performing and looking machine.
Cuz usually pakistani products perform okay but dont look as mean.
I know many will come und say "Its about performance, not looks"  
But I think the very look of our machine should strike fear into hearts of enemy.
E.x Hamza 8x8 is an example if it was fine tuned it would be a mean *** weapon system. ( I am aware I sound like a 12 year old  )


Path-Finder said:


> its happening now not everything can achieved over night. at least it has started.


----------



## Path-Finder

*BREAKING: 7.62mm Rifle to REPLACE M4 Carbine – Interim Combat Service Rifle Solicitation Released by US Army





*
Original caption: "A Scout Sniper Team Marksman, part of the Recon Platoon from Bravo Company, 2nd Battalion, 124th Infantry Regiment, 53rd Brigade Combat Team, Florida Army National Guard fires a M110 semi-automatic sniper system rifle at a 600 meter target during a live fire long range marksmanship training and qualification course at the Arta training range in Djibouti, Oct 14, 2015." The M110 SASS is a 7.62mm sniper rifle system, similar to many rifles that may compete in the ICSR competition. Image source: US Air Force photo by Staff Sgt. Gregory Brook. Public domain.

The US Army has released a solicitation for a new 7.62mm infantry rifle to replace the M4. The Interim Combat Service Rifle program, known to be in the works since April of this year, would replace M4 Carbines in use with combat units with a new weapon in the 7.62x51mm caliber. The new solicitation requires companies to submit 7 weapons plus ancillaries for testing, and includes the promise of up to 8 Other Transaction Agreements (OTAs, non-contract transactions), leading to the eventual selection of 1 weapon for a contract of 50,000 units.

The primary justification for the ICSR program are improved ceramic body armors that are resistant to existing forms of small arms ammunition. The logic goes that the Army’s new 5.56mm M855A1 round cannot penetrate these new armors, and therefore the service must switch to a new round. However, this is misleading, as current 7.62mm M80A1 is incapable of penetrating these body armors either – and specialty tungsten cored ammunition in both 5.56mm and 7.62mm calibers _are_ capable of penetrating armor of this type. The US Army seems to be banking on its yet-undescribed XM1158 ADVAP round to bridge this gap – however Chief Milley himself admitted in testimony to Congress that the ADVAP’s design could be applied to either 7.62mm or 5.56mm ammunition.

These facts leave us with very little justification for the move to 7.62mm. It’s difficult to ignore the picture that a move towards a larger caliber infantry rifle has been lobbied for by manufacturers for over a decade, as it would give whoever won a toehold on a highly lucrative exclusive contract. Sadly, all this program will do is take a load off Chief Milley’s back, and put it on the backs of our troops. One wonders if General Milley is willing to write to families of the dead when ICSR-equipped units run dry of ammunition and are overrun by 5.45mm-armed foes.
*
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...-service-rifle-solicitation-released-us-army/*
*
Hmmn interesting Even the US is going towards 7.62 calibre and rifles will enter competition! Will FN SCAR win? or HK417!*


----------



## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> *BREAKING: 7.62mm Rifle to REPLACE M4 Carbine – Interim Combat Service Rifle Solicitation Released by US Army
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> Original caption: "A Scout Sniper Team Marksman, part of the Recon Platoon from Bravo Company, 2nd Battalion, 124th Infantry Regiment, 53rd Brigade Combat Team, Florida Army National Guard fires a M110 semi-automatic sniper system rifle at a 600 meter target during a live fire long range marksmanship training and qualification course at the Arta training range in Djibouti, Oct 14, 2015." The M110 SASS is a 7.62mm sniper rifle system, similar to many rifles that may compete in the ICSR competition. Image source: US Air Force photo by Staff Sgt. Gregory Brook. Public domain.
> 
> The US Army has released a solicitation for a new 7.62mm infantry rifle to replace the M4. The Interim Combat Service Rifle program, known to be in the works since April of this year, would replace M4 Carbines in use with combat units with a new weapon in the 7.62x51mm caliber. The new solicitation requires companies to submit 7 weapons plus ancillaries for testing, and includes the promise of up to 8 Other Transaction Agreements (OTAs, non-contract transactions), leading to the eventual selection of 1 weapon for a contract of 50,000 units.
> 
> The primary justification for the ICSR program are improved ceramic body armors that are resistant to existing forms of small arms ammunition. The logic goes that the Army’s new 5.56mm M855A1 round cannot penetrate these new armors, and therefore the service must switch to a new round. However, this is misleading, as current 7.62mm M80A1 is incapable of penetrating these body armors either – and specialty tungsten cored ammunition in both 5.56mm and 7.62mm calibers _are_ capable of penetrating armor of this type. The US Army seems to be banking on its yet-undescribed XM1158 ADVAP round to bridge this gap – however Chief Milley himself admitted in testimony to Congress that the ADVAP’s design could be applied to either 7.62mm or 5.56mm ammunition.
> 
> These facts leave us with very little justification for the move to 7.62mm. It’s difficult to ignore the picture that a move towards a larger caliber infantry rifle has been lobbied for by manufacturers for over a decade, as it would give whoever won a toehold on a highly lucrative exclusive contract. Sadly, all this program will do is take a load off Chief Milley’s back, and put it on the backs of our troops. One wonders if General Milley is willing to write to families of the dead when ICSR-equipped units run dry of ammunition and are overrun by 5.45mm-armed foes.
> *
> http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...-service-rifle-solicitation-released-us-army/
> 
> Hmmn interesting Even the US is going towards 7.62 calibre and rifles will enter competition! Will FN SCAR win? or HK417!*


5.56 X 45 is good for short range combat or Police Work but in War you need caliber like 7.62 X 51

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> 5.56 X 45 is good for short range combat or Police Work but in War you need caliber like 7.62 X 51


Hazrat I am talking about the rifle that will win the replacement tender!


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## CriticalThought

Zarvan said:


> 5.56 X 45 is good for short range combat or Police Work but in War you need caliber like 7.62 X 51



The best round for general troop use in a war is the tried and tested AK-47 7.62x39 paired with limited number of 7.62x51 for marksmen purposes. In a modem war, anything else doesn't make sense because the days of infantry fights are over. Infantry will always by accompanied by artillery and/or armor to do the main damage. They would be idiots to go for x51 in very large numbers.

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## Path-Finder

CriticalThought said:


> The best round for general troop use in a war is the tried and tested AK-47 7.62x39 paired with limited number of 7.62x51 for marksmen purposes. In a modem war, anything else doesn't make sense because the days of infantry fights are over. Infantry will always by accompanied by artillery and/or armor to do the main damage. They would be idiots to go for x51 in very large numbers.


going for x51 seems to be a financial afterthought rather than calibre. they toyed with various calibres however the cost of inducting new calibre means its better to bring x51 back into service.

If only .280 British had been adopted maybe this faffing about with calibre would never have happened.

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## Zarvan

CriticalThought said:


> The best round for general troop use in a war is the tried and tested AK-47 7.62x39 paired with limited number of 7.62x51 for marksmen purposes. In a modem war, anything else doesn't make sense because the days of infantry fights are over. Infantry will always by accompanied by artillery and/or armor to do the main damage. They would be idiots to go for x51 in very large numbers.


Dude infantry fights are no where close to be over. And AK 47 is famous not for its caliber but for the Rifle being dependable as hell. As for fighting x 51 has massive edge over x 39


----------



## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Dude infantry fights are no where close to be over. And AK 47 is famous not for its caliber but for the Rifle being dependable as hell. As for fighting x 51 has massive edge over x 39


No Hazrat it's a package of rifle and the ammunition the AK fires. A reliable rifle is junk if it fires crap ammunition!! Think about it. The only reason AK has still stuck around is because of the projectile it spits out not reliability alone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## CriticalThought

Zarvan said:


> Dude infantry fights are no where close to be over. And AK 47 is famous not for its caliber but for the Rifle being dependable as hell. As for fighting x 51 has massive edge over x 39



Here is the scenario. Well dug in forces, with artillery and armor on both sides pounding each other's positions. Snipers are taking opportunity shots. ATGMs, rockets, mortars being used against man and machine. Meanwhile, machine guns are creating an insurmountable fence. If this is happening in open desert without natural cover, there will be a natural no man's land of 500m - 1 km. It would be suicidal to enter that region. An infantry battle will not take place until one side runs out of artillery and armor firepower, when the other side will push in backed by its own armor. In this scenario, you will be using ATGMs, machine guns, and snipers to take out the enemy. With these, you have a chance to hold the enemy at around 300 m. That's a range where AK-47 is completely useful. It gives you the advantage of accuracy, larger mag, mobility, and maneuverability. Flanking maneuvers will be easier with AK-47.

In hilly/rocky areas with natural cover, no man's land can go down to less than 500 m. In this case, if you put x51 in the soldier's hands, there will be a natural inclination to take pot shots from distance. By giving him x39, you force the soldier to close the gap. And that is what you want. You want your soldiers to take the initiative and bring the fight to the enemy.

In both the above scenarios, the deciding factors will be good sight and day/night capability coupled with better accuracy. Stopping power of x51 vs x39 would matter much less.

In both scenarios, flanking maneuvers will be a lot easier with an agile, nimble x39 rifle rather than a clunky x51.

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## Zarvan

CriticalThought said:


> Here is the scenario. Well dug in forces, with artillery and armor on both sides pounding each other's positions. Snipers are taking opportunity shots. ATGMs, rockets, mortars being used against man and machine. Meanwhile, machine guns are creating an insurmountable fence. If this is happening in open desert without natural cover, there will be a natural no man's land of 500m - 1 km. It would be suicidal to enter that region. An infantry battle will not take place until one side runs out of artillery and armor firepower, when the other side will push in backed by its own armor. In this scenario, you will be using ATGMs, machine guns, and snipers to take out the enemy. With these, you have a chance to hold the enemy at around 300 m. That's a range where AK-47 is completely useful. It gives you the advantage of accuracy, larger mag, mobility, and maneuverability. Flanking maneuvers will be easier with AK-47.
> 
> In hilly/rocky areas with natural cover, no man's land can go down to less than 500 m. In this case, if you put x51 in the soldier's hands, there will be a natural inclination to take pot shots from distance. By giving him x39, you force the soldier to close the gap. And that is what you want. You want your soldiers to take the initiative and bring the fight to the enemy.
> 
> In both the above scenarios, the deciding factors will be good sight and day/night capability coupled with better accuracy. Stopping power of x51 vs x39 would matter much less.
> 
> In both scenarios, flanking maneuvers will be a lot easier with an agile, nimble x39 rifle rather than a clunky x51.


In Pakistan India fight in any range won't be less than 400 M and AK effective range is around 350 Meters. With new Armor coming you need a caliber like 7.62 X 51 to cause more damage to enemy


----------



## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> In Pakistan India fight in any range won't be less than 400 M and AK effective range is around 350 Meters. With new Armor coming you need a caliber like 7.62 X 51 to cause more damage to enemy



Hazrat where did you get these estimates from? No armor can truly stop x39 unless you hide behind a tank. Too many movies as it seems.


----------



## CriticalThought

Zarvan said:


> In Pakistan India fight in any range won't be less than 400 M and AK effective range is around 350 Meters. With new Armor coming you need a caliber like 7.62 X 51 to cause more damage to enemy



At above 300m you are better off engaging with mortars, rockets, ATGMs, snipers, and machine guns, You want as many hands manning these as you can. Remember, success is about firepower and there simply is much better firepower available than x51.

About body armor, look at the bold I have added



> The primary justification for the ICSR program are improved ceramic body armors that are resistant to existing forms of small arms ammunition. The logic goes that the Army’s new 5.56mm M855A1 round cannot penetrate these new armors, and therefore the service must switch to a new round. However, this is misleading, as current 7.62mm M80A1 is incapable of penetrating these body armors either – *and specialty tungsten cored ammunition in both 5.56mm and 7.62mm calibers are capable of penetrating armor of this type.*


----------



## Zarvan

CriticalThought said:


> At above 300m you are better off engaging with mortars, rockets, ATGMs, snipers, and machine guns, You want as many hands manning these as you can. Remember, success is about firepower and there simply is much better firepower available than x51.
> 
> About body armor, look at the bold I have added


These things never had and never will replace infantry. Every country is not idiot that they are coming up with future soldier programs. Infantry will always will be your main fighting force and in modern wars when enemies are coming up with much powerful Rifles with more range and powerful caliber you need similar things to answer


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## Super Falcon

Pak Should adopt a multi calliber rifle


----------



## CriticalThought

Zarvan said:


> These things never had and never will replace infantry. Every country is not idiot that they are coming up with future soldier programs. Infantry will always will be your main fighting force and in modern wars when enemies are coming up with much powerful Rifles with more range and powerful caliber you need similar things to answer



Can you give any examples where 'enemies are coming up with much powrful Rifles with more range and powerful caliber'? The most hi-tech advancement is the XM25 and it is more of a grenade launcher. Due to the amount of ammo already produced and factories in place, the NATO standard 5.56, 39 and 51 are here to stay. The 'advancements' being made are in the form of more accuracy, lighter weight, new materials for the bullets etc.

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## Zarvan

CriticalThought said:


> Can you give any examples where 'enemies are coming up with much powrful Rifles with more range and powerful caliber'? The most hi-tech advancement is the XM25 and it is more of a grenade launcher. Due to the amount of ammo already produced and factories in place, the NATO standard 5.56, 39 and 51 are here to stay. The 'advancements' being made are in the form of more accuracy, lighter weight, new materials for the bullets etc.


Right now almost every country is looking for some new Rifle. From Russia to other countries and many countries are also having debates about which caliber to choose.


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Right now almost every country is looking for some new Rifle. From Russia to other countries and many countries are also having debates about which caliber to choose.


Hazrat you are just arguing for the sake of arguing, making no concrete argument for your case.

US 30.06 
Russia 7.62x54R
Germany 8mm Mauser
Britain .303
France 8mm Labelle 

These are the high power cartridge used by these countries and they had the appropriate rifles for the appropriate cartridge, now why dont these countries go back to these old cartridges? These are some almighty powerful cartridges and they realised it's not needed on the battlefield. If according to you the current cartridg is bollocks then why dont they reintroduce them again?

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## Thunder.Storm

The 5.45mm Kalashnikov RPK-16 light machine gun is a prototype of the new Squad Automatic weapon proposed by “Kalashnikov” Concern. Based on traditional Kalashnikov layout and design, it has several novel technical and ergonomic features derived from the AK-12 program, as well as some specific “machine gun” upgrades such as detachable barrels that are available in two lengths, long and short. First displayed to the public at Army-2016 expo, it is still in development. Eventually this gun is intended to replace old 5.45mm RPK-74 light machine guns / squad automatic weapons.

Kalashnikov RPK-16 light machine gun uses traditional gas operated action with rotary bolt locking. It fires from closed bolt, in single shots and full auto. It has interchangeable barrels in two configurations. Long barrels are useful for standard military operations, while short barrels are intended for close combat and Special Operations. To further improve versatility of the gun, RPK-16 has several integrated Picatinny rails that can mount variety of sights and accessories, and can be equipped with sound suppressor. Special high capacity drum magazine is being developed for RPK-16 to give its users additional firepower. 

Caliber: 5.45x39
Length, (mm) : with short barrel: 896 (651 w. stock folded)
 with long barrel: 1076 (831 w. stock folded)
Barrel length(mm): 370 or 500

Rate of fire, rounds per minute :~700
Feed and capacity : Magazine, drum 96 rounds or box 30 rounds.

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## Super Falcon

Why we haven't chooses rifle yet

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## Thunder.Storm

*Ruger SR 762*


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## Path-Finder




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## Thunder.Storm

cz is finalised for X39..


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## Path-Finder

Thunder.Storm said:


> cz is finalised for X39..


Blasphemy!

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## s.k

Thunder.Storm said:


> cz is finalised for X39..


listening since ages anything new ?


----------



## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Blasphemy!


For x 39 it was only one in the competition but news says they will make lot of changes for us the version they brought was not good enough for us. Now as USA companies have jumped in a little delay is happening in X 51 category but waiting for Horus to tell me something. 

By the way friend whose lot of close family and friends are in Armed Forces claimed a interesting thing about @Horus


----------



## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> For x 39 it was only one in the competition but news says they will make lot of changes for us the version they brought was not good enough for us. Now as USA companies have jumped in a little delay is happening in X 51 category but waiting for Horus to tell me something.
> 
> By the way friend whose lot of close family and friends are in Armed Forces claimed a interesting thing about @Horus


so who is winning x51?


----------



## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> so who is winning x51?


SCAR is still the leader in that others are not even coming close. Now USA have entered but they may not even agree to basic conditions of contract that is TOT and Permission to export


----------



## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> SCAR is still the leader in that others are not even coming close. Now USA have entered but they may not even agree to basic conditions of contract that is TOT and Permission to export


hmmn! is FN making any changes to address the issues with the SCAR?


----------



## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> hmmn! is FN making any changes to address the issues with the SCAR?


Why ? They passed our tests if they had issues they would have not passed our tests


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## Gryphon

CZ is shortlisted in x39 category. Reportedly, the talks are in final stage.

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Why ? They passed our tests if they had issues they would have not passed our tests


Every gun has an issue no gun is perfect especially FN SCAR.


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Every gun has an issue no gun is perfect especially FN SCAR.


They passed our tests but few things we need we would tell them and that would be done but not any major change only few slight changes


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> They passed our tests but few things we need we would tell them and that would be done but not any major change only few slight changes


Hazrat why don't you just say you dont know instead of defending it! Have they corrected the issue with accuracy? like mentioned here?


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat why don't you just say you dont know instead of defending it! Have they corrected the issue with accuracy? like mentioned here?


It was accurate as hell the guy you post videos of 95 % other guys who review Rifles on net don't agree with him. He is either liar or funded by some certain groups . There was no accuracy issue with SCAR it was Berreta which had serious accuracy issues and even BREN accuracy is not up to the mark that is also the thing that would be worked upon before we produce it in Pakistan.


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> It was accurate as hell the guy you post videos of 95 % other guys who review Rifles on net don't agree with him. He is either liar or funded by some certain groups . There was no accuracy issue with SCAR it was Berreta which had serious accuracy issues and even BREN accuracy is not up to the mark that is also the thing that would be worked upon before we produce it in Pakistan.


incredible! so much pooja of FN SCAR rifle.



Zarvan said:


> It was accurate as hell the guy you post videos of 95 % other guys who review Rifles on net don't agree with him. He is either liar or funded by some certain groups . There was no accuracy issue with SCAR it was Berreta which had serious accuracy issues and even BREN accuracy is not up to the mark that is also the thing that would be worked upon before we produce it in Pakistan.


Was the British army wrong along with so many other nations in not adopting the FN SCAR. He ain't making it up why would he lie about the trials of British rifle selection?


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> incredible! so much pooja of FN SCAR rifle.


No pooja these are the results of our tests. It passed both accuracy and endurance tests. It was not that good in mud tests but still better than other Rifles that thing will be worked upon.


----------



## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> No pooja these are the results of our tests. It passed both accuracy and endurance tests. It was not that good in mud tests but still better than other Rifles that thing will be worked upon.


No Hazrat i am asking you something else! So many nations are not adopting the FN SCAR yet we will select it on mass apart from Belgium who make it. 

Again has FN fixed the issue with accuracy as it is unable to keep on target?



Zarvan said:


> No pooja these are the results of our tests. It passed both accuracy and endurance tests. It was not that good in mud tests but still better than other Rifles that thing will be worked upon.


Hazrat you do pooja of FN SCAR lets not kidd ourselves.


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## mikaal hassan

Why can't we just close this stupid thread every single day we will see the same arguments


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## Thunder.Storm



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## CriticalThought

Thunder.Storm said:


>



FIRED LIKE A BOSS!!!!!!!!!!! Now THAT'S how you fire on full auto. Solid hands. These men are built like rocks. Masha Allah. Alhamdu Lillah.

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## Gryphon

*Strong International References*

Sarsılmaz, Turkey’s unchanging market leader, exports most of its production and accomplishes *sales* to *78 countries,* ranging from the Americas to the Far East, and Europe to Africa. More than 50 percent of these sales take place in the USA under the brand name *SAR ARMS.* More than 50,000 guns are exported annually to the USA.

Alternatively, the police forces and military forces of many countries also use Sarsılmaz products. Having won various tenders in Pakistan over the years, Sarsılmaz products are being used safely in the country. The cooperation launched between Sarsılmaz and Pakistan Ordnance Factories (POF) has also been strengthened with new projects. As a result of the negotiations that started in 2012, in response to the POF’s search for a reliable weapon to be used by Pakistani Armed Forces members, Turkey’s first technology transfer agreement on light arms has been signed between Sarsılmaz and POF.

Pakistan, Thailand, Senegal, Colombia, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Lebanon, Ghana and Macedonia are also among the countries that favour Sarsılmaz products.


Advertorial: Sarsılmaz, the World’s Small Arms Manufacturer | milscint.com

4 July 2017

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## Zarvan

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> *Strong International References*
> 
> Sarsılmaz, Turkey’s unchanging market leader, exports most of its production and accomplishes *sales* to *78 countries,* ranging from the Americas to the Far East, and Europe to Africa. More than 50 percent of these sales take place in the USA under the brand name *SAR ARMS.* More than 50,000 guns are exported annually to the USA.
> 
> Alternatively, the police forces and military forces of many countries also use Sarsılmaz products. Having won various tenders in Pakistan over the years, Sarsılmaz products are being used safely in the country. The cooperation launched between Sarsılmaz and Pakistan Ordnance Factories (POF) has also been strengthened with new projects. As a result of the negotiations that started in 2012, in response to the POF’s search for a reliable weapon to be used by Pakistani Armed Forces members, Turkey’s first technology transfer agreement on light arms has been signed between Sarsılmaz and POF.
> 
> Pakistan, Thailand, Senegal, Colombia, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Lebanon, Ghana and Macedonia are also among the countries that favour Sarsılmaz products.
> 
> 
> Advertorial: Sarsılmaz, the World’s Small Arms Manufacturer | milscint.com
> 
> 4 July 2017



I know a Lt Colonal he carries the HandGun as he is the officer he is quite happy with the Gun. He says he has hit several rounds at 100 Meter distance with it.


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## Path-Finder



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## Ahmet Pasha

What if he had to make this video bcuz of a PDF Pakistani member 



Path-Finder said:


>

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## ghazi52

Great Share.......Thanks.


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## Path-Finder

Ahmet Pasha said:


> What if he had to make this video bcuz of a PDF Pakistani member


No. This guy worked for Colt and he has incredible knowledge of military firearms. For things like the doomed SCAR program he is the best I have found with knowledge of the topic.

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> No. This guy worked for Colt and he has incredible knowledge of military firearms. For things like the doomed SCAR program he is the best I have found with knowledge of the topic.


You consider him best he mostly has same views as you have. What I have seen is almost 95 % of the other Guys including former USA soldiers don't agree with his views.


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## Vazir

Most of the American veterans or servicemen I have read preferred their M16A4s to SCAR-Ls.


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> You consider him best he mostly has same views as you have. What I have seen is almost 95 % of the other Guys including former USA soldiers don't agree with his views.


I knew one thing and that is you won't be able to resist trying to defend the FN SCAR. I hope you do know that SCAR is actually a program by SOCOM, not a rifle! The Program is long dead now!

As for the Guy in the video well

He worked for Colt.
He unlike any of us of the forum here has fired a FN SCAR L/H
He has spoken to people who issued the SCAR guidelines to manufacturers
He has spoken to the people who used the FN SCAR.
What qualification do you posses to lecture us on the Greatness on FN SCAR other than what people say on the internet, Which cannot be verified! This is very important we cannot verify things you say?

If FN SCAR was so great then why is SOCOM using Danielle Defence Mk18? The FN SCAR H will also be replaced from their service very soon!

Why isn't the new adoption of 7.62 rifle by US Army just adopt FN SCAR H instead of issuing a new tender? Same for many other countries? But it is the best rifle in trials for Pakistan *only!*

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## LuCiFeR_DeCoY

I was a big fan of SCAR *before* reading this thread.
A rifle can't be that perfect and it's isn't made in heaven by angels either.
By the way, any listed rifle would be good enough for Pakistan if India chooses to manufacture their own rifle.


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## Zarvan

LuCiFeR_DeCoY said:


> I was a big fan of SCAR *before* reading this thread.
> A rifle can't be that perfect and it's isn't made in heaven by angels either.
> By the way, any listed rifle would be good enough for Pakistan if India chooses to manufacture their own rifle.


SCAR is a great Gun and yes no Gun is made in heaven but SCAR has passed all our tests. SCAR had issues in MUD tests but still it was better than other Assault Rifles. And Pakistan tests a Rifle in -54 to 54 C temperature range and if a Rifle has passed that trial than it means it's a good Gun. And nobody says a Gun can be perfect


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## Thunder.Storm

Still no news about the progress.


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## Zarvan

Thunder.Storm said:


> Still no news about the progress.


We are all waiting so let see what happens


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## BRAVO_

what is the conclusion of this thread, can somebody tell me in simple words, because more than two years have been gone 336 pages have been written ? what gun has been finalized? or still it is like moving .....

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## fitpOsitive

BRAVO_ said:


> what is the conclusion of this thread, can somebody tell me in simple words, because more than two years have been gone 336 pages have been written ? what gun has been finalized? or still it is like moving .....


See post # 5033.


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## Path-Finder

fitpOsitive said:


> See post # 5033.


July 2016 the poster of post#5033 said wait till November!
December 2K16 the poster of post#5033 said wait till June 2017.

Explain that?


----------



## fitpOsitive

Path-Finder said:


> July 2016 the poster of post#5033 said wait till November!
> December 2K16 the poster of post#5033 said wait till June 2017.
> 
> Explain that?


 sir, sorry. Please consider my mistake to be childish. I can resolve Kashmir issue, but this rifle issue? I simply can't handle it.

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## Riz

BC jub tak hum select karain gay us wakt 7th generation ki gun a jay gi... lol


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## Mrc

Apparently POF is well advanced in domestic assault rifle programme.... that may be whats causing the delay

Apparently POF is well advanced in domestic assault rifle programme.... that may be whats causing the delay


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## Zarvan

Mrc said:


> Apparently POF is well advanced in domestic assault rifle programme.... that may be whats causing the delay
> 
> Apparently POF is well advanced in domestic assault rifle programme.... that may be whats causing the delay


They are not in any program


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## Mrc

Zarvan said:


> They are not in any program




There was a recent statement in standing committee on defence production about it... they said domestic assault rifle is close to be introduced


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## Zarvan

Mrc said:


> There was a recent statement in standing committee on defence production about it... they said domestic assault rifle is close to be introduced


They were talking about Rifle trials


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## Mrc

Zarvan said:


> They were talking about Rifle trials




DOMESTIC... they may have meant domestic production ... I don't have link heard it on tv


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## Zarvan

Mrc said:


> DOMESTIC... they may have meant domestic production ... I don't have link heard it on tv


I also heard it yes Rifles selected will be produced in Pakistan


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## bananarepublic

this rifle procurement is going as slow as a snail...


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## Reichsmarschall

Bossman said:


> The Americans are trying to derail the process like they did in the late 1950s which led to delay in introduction of G3 by almost a decade. Pakistan had selected the G3 to replace the Lee Enfield but the yanks jumped in and gave WW2 vintages M1 for free.


why are they delaying rifle procurement?do they want to sell their rifles to us?


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## PAR 5

https://www.facebook.com/concernKal...OYVdbZG62-BxS-dZOQ4egbYcB2kMP8bi3PU4MggoPkjns

POF Signs Joint Manufacture Agreement with KALASHINKOV in Russia yesterday. Bye Bye FN, Beretta and the others!

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## Zarvan

PAR 5 said:


> https://www.facebook.com/concernKal...OYVdbZG62-BxS-dZOQ4egbYcB2kMP8bi3PU4MggoPkjns
> 
> POF Signs Joint Manufacture Agreement with KALASHINKOV in Russia yesterday. Bye Bye FN, Beretta and the others!


This kind of agreement has been signed with Italy also and also with CZ go read the contract Sir it's not joint manufacturing contract trials are still taking place trials are not over and AK is not in competition to replace G3 it's for Type 56



PAR 5 said:


> https://www.facebook.com/concernKal...OYVdbZG62-BxS-dZOQ4egbYcB2kMP8bi3PU4MggoPkjns
> 
> POF Signs Joint Manufacture Agreement with KALASHINKOV in Russia yesterday. Bye Bye FN, Beretta and the others!









The Kalashnikov Group which is integrated into the State Company Rostec, has signed the Letter of Understanding to cooperate in the area of supply and marketing of civil small arms with the Islamic Republic of Pakistan. The LOU was signed a International Military Forum "Army 2017" on 23rd August 2017 by the Deputy CEO of Kalashnikov Group, Vladimir Dmitriev, and Lt. General Umar Farooq Durrani, Chairman of Pakistan Ordnance Factories (POF)


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## fitpOsitive

Its my utter wish that we should select any ak. They are good, no matter what.

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## Muhammad Omar

Small Arms includes Pistols??? or talking about Rifles ???


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

PAR 5 said:


> https://www.facebook.com/concernKal...OYVdbZG62-BxS-dZOQ4egbYcB2kMP8bi3PU4MggoPkjns
> 
> POF Signs Joint Manufacture Agreement with KALASHINKOV in Russia yesterday. Bye Bye FN, Beretta and the others!


It's a LoU to market Kalashnikov small arms to the civilian market in Pakistan. Basically an authentic alternative to DAK.

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## Thunder.Storm

Any thing new guys?


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## Zarvan

Thunder.Storm said:


> Any thing new guys?


No nothing new @Horus


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## Ahmet Pasha

All guns in trial have been abandoned. POF has now instead enlisted help of Kalashnikov gul and RPG Khan from darra Adam khel to develop new infantry weapon system.
My Anna's sister's friend's son has confirmed this 


Thunder.Storm said:


> Any thing new guys?





The Accountant said:


> yes but cannot be replaced by Horkus B as T-37 is Jet trainer whereas Hurkus is Turbo propeller





Zarvan said:


> No nothing new @Horus

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## Zarvan

Ahmet Pasha said:


> All guns in trial have been abandoned. POF has now instead enlisted help of Kalashnikov gul and rpk Khan to develop new infantry weapon system.
> My Anna's sister's friend's son has confirmed this


Than you are wrong I know people in POF no deal made and trials are still and just recently came to see pictures and other proof @Ahmet Pasha


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## Mumm-Ra

Zarvan said:


> Than you are wrong I know people in POF no deal made and trials are still and just recently came to see pictures and other proof @Ahmet Pasha


He was being sarcastic bro...


----------



## LegitimateIdiot

Thunder.Storm said:


> The 5.45mm Kalashnikov RPK-16 light machine gun is a prototype of the new Squad Automatic weapon proposed by “Kalashnikov” Concern. Based on traditional Kalashnikov layout and design, it has several novel technical and ergonomic features derived from the AK-12 program, as well as some specific “machine gun” upgrades such as detachable barrels that are available in two lengths, long and short. First displayed to the public at Army-2016 expo, it is still in development. Eventually this gun is intended to replace old 5.45mm RPK-74 light machine guns / squad automatic weapons.
> 
> Kalashnikov RPK-16 light machine gun uses traditional gas operated action with rotary bolt locking. It fires from closed bolt, in single shots and full auto. It has interchangeable barrels in two configurations. Long barrels are useful for standard military operations, while short barrels are intended for close combat and Special Operations. To further improve versatility of the gun, RPK-16 has several integrated Picatinny rails that can mount variety of sights and accessories, and can be equipped with sound suppressor. Special high capacity drum magazine is being developed for RPK-16 to give its users additional firepower.
> 
> Caliber: 5.45x39
> Length, (mm) : with short barrel: 896 (651 w. stock folded)
> with long barrel: 1076 (831 w. stock folded)
> Barrel length(mm): 370 or 500
> 
> Rate of fire, rounds per minute :~700
> Feed and capacity : Magazine, drum 96 rounds or box 30 rounds.
> View attachment 417977
> View attachment 417978
> View attachment 417979


i posted pictures and videos of these ak's , sadly no one gave a shit about my effort to persuade them that this is a viable choice


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## Ahmet Pasha

Thats cuz @Zarvan has already ordered SCAR from belgium 


LegitimateIdiot said:


> i posted pictures and videos of these ak's , sadly no one gave a shit about my effort to persuade them that this is a viable choice

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

So recently a contract was signed with Kalshnikov Russian firm , that means .... what


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## Zarvan

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> So recently a contract was signed with Kalshnikov Russian firm , that means .... what


It means nothing that contract is for Civilian Market. POF will market and sell Kalashnikov products in our civilian market


----------



## Saquib

Can anyone confirm this Pakistan Ready to Buy Half Million New Infantry Rifles CZ 806 BREN A2


----------



## That Guy

LegitimateIdiot said:


> i posted pictures and videos of these ak's , sadly no one gave a shit about my effort to persuade them that this is a viable choice


It was never about viability, all the rifles are viable, what matters is which is best suited for PA's future. Not just fighting insurgents, but fighting a conventional army.


----------



## Zarvan

Saquib said:


> Can anyone confirm this Pakistan Ready to Buy Half Million New Infantry Rifles CZ 806 BREN A2


False report no Rifle fully finalized yet @Horus


----------



## Ahmet Pasha

Is thread ka to Allah hi hafiz


----------



## niaz

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Is thread ka to Allah hi hafiz



It is understandable that that some members maybe frustrated because Pak Army planners are taking a long time before finalizing their choice. May I suggest that we look at the problem from a slighly different perspective?

With the exception of the nuclear weapons, in order to defend, capture and hold any territory, one needs boots on the ground which basically means employing foot soldiers / infantry. Since the days of the sword are no more, most important weapon of the infantry man is his rifle, as without an effective & reliable rifle, a foot soldier is like a sitting duck for the enemy.

G-3 was first introduced in Pak Army in 1967 that is 50 years ago, except for it being a little heavy and with a big kick; G-3 is still a very competent assault rifle. The new rifle must therefore be rugged and designed so that it could remain effective for the next 40 - 50 years. Additionally modern assault rifles being expensive; its replacement must offer significant advantage over G-3 to justify the expense. 

When all of the above is taken into consideration, I am not surprised that the decision on the new assault rifle is taking a long time; at the end of the day army jawan’s life depends upon the rifle he carries. I don’t mind the time, but sincerely hope that final choice meets Pak Army requirements for the next 50 years. I therefore suggest 'Patience' to my compatriot brothers.

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## Zarvan

niaz said:


> It is understandable that that some members maybe frustrated because Pak Army planners are taking a long time before finalizing their choice. May I suggest that we look at the problem from a slighly different perspective?
> 
> With the exception of the nuclear weapons, in order to defend, capture and hold any territory, one needs boots on the ground which basically means employing foot soldiers / infantry. Since the days of the sword are no more, most important weapon of the infantry man is his rifle, as without an effective & reliable rifle, a foot soldier is like a sitting duck for the enemy.
> 
> G-3 was first introduced in Pak Army in 1967 that is 50 years ago, except for it being a little heavy and with a big kick; G-3 is still a very competent assault rifle. The new rifle must therefore be rugged and designed so that it could remain effective for the next 40 - 50 years. Additionally modern assault rifles being expensive; its replacement must offer significant advantage over G-3 to justify the expense.
> 
> When all of the above is taken into consideration, I am not surprised that the decision on the new assault rifle is taking a long time; at the end of the day army jawan’s life depends upon the rifle he carries. I don’t mind the time, but sincerely hope that final choice meets Pak Army requirements for the next 50 years. I therefore suggest 'Patience' to my compatriot brothers.


Well we understand and trials are taking place and some Guns who didn't performed well initially changed few things in there Rifles and brought them back for trials that is also delaying things and also few more companies came. So let see @Horus


----------



## Ahmet Pasha

My earlier post was more about the quality of the content in this thread rather than army taking a long time to decide on a rifle.


niaz said:


> It is understandable that that some members maybe frustrated because Pak Army planners are taking a long time before finalizing their choice. May I suggest that we look at the problem from a slighly different perspective?
> 
> With the exception of the nuclear weapons, in order to defend, capture and hold any territory, one needs boots on the ground which basically means employing foot soldiers / infantry. Since the days of the sword are no more, most important weapon of the infantry man is his rifle, as without an effective & reliable rifle, a foot soldier is like a sitting duck for the enemy.
> 
> G-3 was first introduced in Pak Army in 1967 that is 50 years ago, except for it being a little heavy and with a big kick; G-3 is still a very competent assault rifle. The new rifle must therefore be rugged and designed so that it could remain effective for the next 40 - 50 years. Additionally modern assault rifles being expensive; its replacement must offer significant advantage over G-3 to justify the expense.
> 
> When all of the above is taken into consideration, I am not surprised that the decision on the new assault rifle is taking a long time; at the end of the day army jawan’s life depends upon the rifle he carries. I don’t mind the time, but sincerely hope that final choice meets Pak Army requirements for the next 50 years. I therefore suggest 'Patience' to my compatriot brothers.


----------



## Arsalan



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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


>


The picture is from Baluchistan Police Trials which took place last year


----------



## Zarvan

*Aimpoint's Comp5 sight at DSEi 2017*
*
Aim Point new Sight *


----------



## Amaa'n

Zarvan said:


> It means nothing that contract is for Civilian Market. POF will market and sell Kalashnikov products in our civilian market


bhai License to civilians are closed - unless aim is to sell these inhouse built AKs to Law Enforcement Agencies & Police


----------



## Zarvan

balixd said:


> bhai License to civilians are closed - unless aim is to sell these inhouse built AKs to Law Enforcement Agencies & Police


This is what the contract says this is what POF official page was saying and yes I have same question that no licenses are being issued than what is the point @Horus


----------



## Amaa'n

Zarvan said:


> This is what the contract says this is what POF official page was saying and yes I have same question that no licenses are being issued than what is the point @Horus


PoF came up with G3 Sporter .308 to cater the civilian market, but only to be stopped by Govt over the Licensing issue..... on paper as per FIre Arms Act 2012 all 9mm, 308, .223,.222 in Semi Auto configuration are Non Prohibited Bores but local DCs would not issue the license for the same unless one had a very strong reference ----- this rifle would would have done good if such issues are cleared before hand ----

In pakistan there can be a good market for .223, .308 , 5.45 x 39 (AK 74) if Govt is willing to streamline their licensing procedure

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## Zarvan

balixd said:


> PoF came up with G3 Sporter .308 to cater the civilian market, but only to be stopped by Govt over the Licensing issue..... on paper as per FIre Arms Act 2012 all 9mm, 308, .223,.222 in Semi Auto configuration are Non Prohibited Bores but local DCs would not issue the license for the same unless one had a very strong reference ----- this rifle would would have done good if such issues are cleared before hand ----
> 
> In pakistan there can be a good market for .223, .308 , 5.45 x 39 (AK 74) if Govt is willing to streamline their licensing procedure


Also please find out latest on Rifle program it's getting ridiculously long now.


----------



## Zarvan

*Seven Contracts to Export 100,000 Kalashnikov Rifles Signed in 2017*







AK-74M Assault Rifle: Image by Kalashnikov

Russia’s arms exporter Rosoboronexport has signed seven contracts to export more than 100,000 Kalashnikov rifles in 2017, the company’s CEO Aleksandr Mikheyev said on Tuesday.

He however did not specify the countries or organizations which had signed up to buy the iconic assault rifles.

"There is great interest in Kalashnikov rifles in the Asia-Pacific Region, Middle East, Africa and Latin America. In 2017 we have already concluded seven contracts to sell more than 100,000 different models of Kalashnikovs. Talks are in progress with several customers," Mikheyev said, according to Tass.

Of all small arms of Russian manufacture Kalashnikov assault rifles are in the greatest demand from foreign customers.

"Since its establishment Rosoboronexport has exported more than one million models of this rifle. In several countries Kalashnikovs are produced under license with Russian assistance.

In 2017 alone more than 15,000 Kalashnikovs have been produced under license, and starting from 2001 - several hundred thousand," Mikheyev said at a ceremony of unveiling a monument to Russian rifles designer Mikhail Kalashnikov on Tuesday.

Rosoboronexport promotes to the world market Kalashnikov’s model AK-74M and several models from the "100th series" (AK-101, AK-102, AK-103, AK-104 and AK-105). More AK modifications are to hit the world market soon.

http://www.defenseworld.net/news/20...alashnikov_Rifles_Signed_in_2017#.WcELdsgjFPY


----------



## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> *Seven Contracts to Export 100,000 Kalashnikov Rifles Signed in 2017*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AK-74M Assault Rifle: Image by Kalashnikov
> 
> Russia’s arms exporter Rosoboronexport has signed seven contracts to export more than 100,000 Kalashnikov rifles in 2017, the company’s CEO Aleksandr Mikheyev said on Tuesday.
> 
> He however did not specify the countries or organizations which had signed up to buy the iconic assault rifles.
> 
> "There is great interest in Kalashnikov rifles in the Asia-Pacific Region, Middle East, Africa and Latin America. In 2017 we have already concluded seven contracts to sell more than 100,000 different models of Kalashnikovs. Talks are in progress with several customers," Mikheyev said, according to Tass.
> 
> Of all small arms of Russian manufacture Kalashnikov assault rifles are in the greatest demand from foreign customers.
> 
> "Since its establishment Rosoboronexport has exported more than one million models of this rifle. In several countries Kalashnikovs are produced under license with Russian assistance.
> 
> In 2017 alone more than 15,000 Kalashnikovs have been produced under license, and starting from 2001 - several hundred thousand," Mikheyev said at a ceremony of unveiling a monument to Russian rifles designer Mikhail Kalashnikov on Tuesday.
> 
> Rosoboronexport promotes to the world market Kalashnikov’s model AK-74M and several models from the "100th series" (AK-101, AK-102, AK-103, AK-104 and AK-105). More AK modifications are to hit the world market soon.
> 
> http://www.defenseworld.net/news/20...alashnikov_Rifles_Signed_in_2017#.WcELdsgjFPY



Hazrat rapidly approaching 365 days! which is a year since you confidently told me the bongie that it will be done by June?

Like raja pervez ashraf do you have another date?

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat rapidly approaching 365 days! which is a year since you confidently told me the bongie that it will be done by June?
> 
> Like raja pervez ashraf do you have another date?


A month ago I was shown proof which basically meant that few rifles which didn't performed good initially went back and returned and are being tested again. But in 7.62 X 39 things are not looking good for your beloved CZ, It seem Russia may manage to get the deal. One specific force started few trials just a month a or two ago


----------



## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> A month ago I was shown proof which basically meant that few rifles which didn't performed good initially went back and returned and are being tested again. But in 7.62 X 39 things are not looking good for your beloved CZ, It seem Russia may manage to get the deal



Yes Hazrat the greatest rifle to globally fail and pass in Pakistan *only!* FN SCAR is coming we know BUT what's the new date?


----------



## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Yes Hazrat the greatest rifle to globally fail and pass in Pakistan *only!* FN SCAR is coming we know BUT what's the new date?


The recent proof suggest SCAR is final for 7.62 X 51 category the real issue is for 7.62 X 39 caliber where Russians are doing what ever it takes to get the deal. In 7.62 x 39 it's between AK100 series vs BREN mainly


----------



## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> The recent proof suggest SCAR is final for 7.62 X 51 category the real issue is for 7.62 X 39 caliber where Russians are doing what ever it takes to get the deal. In 7.62 x 39 it's between AK100 series vs BREN mainly


 I asked for a new date not your personal biased opinion!


----------



## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> I asked for a new date not your personal biased opinion!


This not personal biased opinion but based on recent proof which I was shown which includes latest pictures and there is no fix date. There are also reports that some of the forces from Para Military have already placed orders of some Rifle.


----------



## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> This not personal biased opinion but based on recent proof which I was shown which includes latest pictures and there is no fix date. There are also reports that some of the forces from Para Military have already placed orders of some Rifle.


Hmmn


----------



## Ahmet Pasha

Bruh. This is not even funny anymore. What if @Zarvan is just trolling this thread all along. Im so sick of it now. Arrrrrgh




Path-Finder said:


> Hmmn


----------



## Path-Finder

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Bruh. This is not even funny anymore. What if @Zarvan is just trolling this thread all along. Im so sick of it now. Arrrrrgh



He is a troll, That is not news.


----------



## Zarvan

__ https://www.facebook.com/




Kalashnikov Group developed AK modernization kit that allows use of modern red dot sights, which substantially increases combat effectiveness. It is a drop-in kit which allows converting any stock AK-47/AKM or AK-74 rifle into a bit more modern weapon making it more adjustable and suitable for accessorizing.

@balixd @Horus

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kalashnikov Group developed AK modernization kit that allows use of modern red dot sights, which substantially increases combat effectiveness. It is a drop-in kit which allows converting any stock AK-47/AKM or AK-74 rifle into a bit more modern weapon making it more adjustable and suitable for accessorizing.
> 
> @balixd @Horus


??? What is the excitement in it? Kits from various vendors has been around over a decade Hazrat.


----------



## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> ??? What is the excitement in it? Kits from various vendors has been around over a decade Hazrat.


This kit could increase AK-103 chances lot more


----------



## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> This kit could increase AK-103 chances lot more


how much better is AK103 AND Type 56? There is NO difference between the two other than furnishing updates on AK103. It is still an AK47!!!


----------



## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> how much better is AK103 AND Type 56? There is NO difference between the two other than furnishing updates on AK103. It is still an AK47!!!


There is difference lot of difference and performs great


----------



## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> There is difference lot of difference and performs great


tell me the differences. Does it have a different operating mechanism from the one derived in AK47?


----------



## Army research

Zarvan said:


> There is difference lot of difference and performs great


Please enlighten us on the differences ( muzzle brake is an external add on, so that doesn't count )


----------



## Path-Finder

Army research said:


> Please enlighten us on the differences ( muzzle brake is an external add on, so that doesn't count )


Hazrat is always ready to pounce on this thread he monitors the thread even in sleep, yet no answer for the question!

Hazarat @Zarvan kidder digh gai oh


----------



## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat is always ready to pounce on this thread he monitors the thread even in sleep, yet no answer for the question!
> 
> Hazarat @Zarvan kidder digh gai oh


I was sleeping


----------



## Thunder.Storm




----------



## Zarvan

*Russia exports more than 100 000 AKs*







Sanctions aside, things seem to be going well for Russian firearms export.

Rosoboronexport is the only state organization in Russia for exporting the entire range of military, dual-use products and services and technologies.

The Director General of Rosoboronexport, Alexander Mikheev, reported that the volume of foreign deliveries of various versions of the Kalashnikov assault rifle exceeded 100 000 units for 2017.

According to Mr. Mikheev Rosoboronexport concluded seven foreign contracts in 2017 for the supply of more than 100 000 Kalashnikov rifles of various modifications for export.

The bulk of supplies are from the “One hundred series” like the *AK-101, AK-102, AK-103, AK-104 and AK-105.*





*Here’s a brief introduction to these different models:*



*In short the AK-101 and -102 are 5,56×45 mm.*

*The AK-103 and -104 are 7,62х39 mm.*

*The AK-105 is 5,45х39 mm.*



In a bit more detail. Please note that the pictures are not to scale.

*AK-101 in 5,56×45 mm*





Kalashnikov AK101 meets all of the Land Forces’ and Special Forces’ needs.

Plastic folding buttstock ensures convenience on the march, during transportation and landing operations. The weapon retains the ability to fire with the folded buttstock.

The forearm, magazine, buttstock, and pistol grip are made of high-strength plastic and feature great durability to stress. Protective coatings ensure excellent corrosion resistance of metal parts.

The AK101 features a base to mount a 40-mm under-barrel grenade launcher or a knife-bayonet; and a side mounting rail for night and daylight sights.

Muzzle compensator provides for cyclic fire accuracy and further reduces muzzle climb and burst recoil.

Company quality control system and all-around test programs make the AK101 the ultimate world standard in 5.56mm.



*AK-102 in 5,56×45*






Kalashnikov assault rifle AK102 meets all of the Land Forces’ and Special Forces’ needs. Having the same caliber, the AK102 differs from the AK101 in shortened barrel and flash hider.

The AK102 features a side mounting rail to accommodate night and daylight sights



*AK103 in 7,62х39*






The AK103 is the third generation of the Kalashnikov assault rifles, a thorough upgrade of the world known AK47 and AKM.

The AK103 has plastic folding buttstock that ensures convenience on the march, during transportation and landing operations. The weapon can fire with butt stock folded.

Forearm, magazine, buttstock, and pistol grip are made of high-strength plastic and feature great durability to stress. Protective coatings ensure excellent corrosion resistance of metal parts.

The AK103 can carry a 40-mm under-barrel grenade launcher or a knife-bayonet.

There is a side dove-tail mounting rail for optical, collimator or night sights.

New muzzle brake provides for cyclic fire accuracy and further reduces muzzle climb and burst recoil.





*AK-104 in 7,62х39*






The AK104 is the third generation of the Kalashnikov rifles, a thorough upgrade of the world known AK47 and AKM. Having the same caliber, the AK104 differs from the AK103 in shortened barrel and flash hider.

Plastic folding buttstock ensures convenience on the march, during transportation and landing operations. The weapon can fire with buttstock folded.

The forearm, magazine, buttstock, and pistol grip are made of high-strength plastic and feature great durability to stress. Protective coatings ensure excellent corrosion resistance of metal parts.

There is a side dove-tail mounting rail for optical, collimator or night sights.

New muzzle brake provides for cyclic fire accuracy and further reduces muzzle climb and burst recoil.



*AK-105 in 5,45х39*





Kalashnikov rifle AK105 meets all of the Land Forces’ and Special Forces’ needs. Having the same caliber, the AK105 differs from the AK74M in shortened barrel and flash hider.

Plastic folding buttstock ensures convenience on march, during transportation and landing operations. The weapon retains the ability to fire with folded butt stock.

The forearm, magazine, buttstock, and pistol grip are made of high-strength plastic and feature great durability to stress. Protective coatings ensure excellent corrosion resistance of metal parts.

The AK105 features a side mounting rail to accommodate night and daylight sights.








Furthermore, Rosoboronexport has also assisted several countries to start up production under license of AK rifles.

More than 15 000 Kalashnikov rifles have been manufactured under license in 2017. Not a great number, but somebody is making them. It would be interesting to know which country or countries that are producing these rifles? I couldn’t find any information about this.

Since the beginning of 2001 several hundred thousand units have been produced under license.



http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/09/22/russia-exports-100-000-aks/

@Path-Finder You wanted to know features of AK-103 well here are some for you

*CZ Scorpion Evo 3 Machine Gun | FULL AUTO!!!*









The CZ Scorpion Evo 3 made a heck of a splash when it was introduced in 2010 and an even bigger splash when it hit the US market in 2015. In this episode of TFB TV, Patrick gets a chance to put some ammo through a factory machine gun and really get acquainted with the sub gun. Since this is a dealer sample, it gets all of the cool things like a 4 position selector switch, a folding stock, and we even have a tri-lug adaptor on the end of the machine gun so a Dead Air Wolf 9SD suppressor can be fitted for the ultimate in sub gun goodness.

Big thanks to Boeh from SAW Inc. for loaning us the firearm and thanks to Triple C range in Cresson, Texas for letting us make a ton of noise!

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/09/22/cz-scorpion-evo-3-machine-gun-full-auto/


----------



## Ahmet Pasha

Hazrat u have commited blasphemy in your own post 


Zarvan said:


> *Russia exports more than 100 000 AKs*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sanctions aside, things seem to be going well for Russian firearms export.
> 
> Rosoboronexport is the only state organization in Russia for exporting the entire range of military, dual-use products and services and technologies.
> 
> The Director General of Rosoboronexport, Alexander Mikheev, reported that the volume of foreign deliveries of various versions of the Kalashnikov assault rifle exceeded 100 000 units for 2017.
> 
> According to Mr. Mikheev Rosoboronexport concluded seven foreign contracts in 2017 for the supply of more than 100 000 Kalashnikov rifles of various modifications for export.
> 
> The bulk of supplies are from the “One hundred series” like the *AK-101, AK-102, AK-103, AK-104 and AK-105.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Here’s a brief introduction to these different models:*
> 
> 
> 
> *In short the AK-101 and -102 are 5,56×45 mm.*
> 
> *The AK-103 and -104 are 7,62х39 mm.*
> 
> *The AK-105 is 5,45х39 mm.*
> 
> 
> 
> In a bit more detail. Please note that the pictures are not to scale.
> 
> *AK-101 in 5,56×45 mm*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kalashnikov AK101 meets all of the Land Forces’ and Special Forces’ needs.
> 
> Plastic folding buttstock ensures convenience on the march, during transportation and landing operations. The weapon retains the ability to fire with the folded buttstock.
> 
> The forearm, magazine, buttstock, and pistol grip are made of high-strength plastic and feature great durability to stress. Protective coatings ensure excellent corrosion resistance of metal parts.
> 
> The AK101 features a base to mount a 40-mm under-barrel grenade launcher or a knife-bayonet; and a side mounting rail for night and daylight sights.
> 
> Muzzle compensator provides for cyclic fire accuracy and further reduces muzzle climb and burst recoil.
> 
> Company quality control system and all-around test programs make the AK101 the ultimate world standard in 5.56mm.
> 
> 
> 
> *AK-102 in 5,56×45*
> Kalashnikov assault rifle AK102 meets all of the Land Forces’ and Special Forces’ needs. Having the same caliber, the AK102 differs from the AK101 in shortened barrel and flash hider.
> 
> The AK102 features a side mounting rail to accommodate night and daylight sights
> 
> 
> 
> *AK103 in 7,62х39*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The AK103 is the third generation of the Kalashnikov assault rifles, a thorough upgrade of the world known AK47 and AKM.
> 
> The AK103 has plastic folding buttstock that ensures convenience on the march, during transportation and landing operations. The weapon can fire with butt stock folded.
> 
> Forearm, magazine, buttstock, and pistol grip are made of high-strength plastic and feature great durability to stress. Protective coatings ensure excellent corrosion resistance of metal parts.
> 
> The AK103 can carry a 40-mm under-barrel grenade launcher or a knife-bayonet.
> 
> There is a side dove-tail mounting rail for optical, collimator or night sights.
> 
> New muzzle brake provides for cyclic fire accuracy and further reduces muzzle climb and burst recoil.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *AK-104 in 7,62х39*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The AK104 is the third generation of the Kalashnikov rifles, a thorough upgrade of the world known AK47 and AKM. Having the same caliber, the AK104 differs from the AK103 in shortened barrel and flash hider.
> 
> Plastic folding buttstock ensures convenience on the march, during transportation and landing operations. The weapon can fire with buttstock folded.
> 
> The forearm, magazine, buttstock, and pistol grip are made of high-strength plastic and feature great durability to stress. Protective coatings ensure excellent corrosion resistance of metal parts.
> 
> There is a side dove-tail mounting rail for optical, collimator or night sights.
> 
> New muzzle brake provides for cyclic fire accuracy and further reduces muzzle climb and burst recoil.
> 
> 
> 
> *AK-105 in 5,45х39*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kalashnikov rifle AK105 meets all of the Land Forces’ and Special Forces’ needs. Having the same caliber, the AK105 differs from the AK74M in shortened barrel and flash hider.
> 
> Plastic folding buttstock ensures convenience on march, during transportation and landing operations. The weapon retains the ability to fire with folded butt stock.
> 
> The forearm, magazine, buttstock, and pistol grip are made of high-strength plastic and feature great durability to stress. Protective coatings ensure excellent corrosion resistance of metal parts.
> 
> The AK105 features a side mounting rail to accommodate night and daylight sights.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Furthermore, Rosoboronexport has also assisted several countries to start up production under license of AK rifles.
> 
> More than 15 000 Kalashnikov rifles have been manufactured under license in 2017. Not a great number, but somebody is making them. It would be interesting to know which country or countries that are producing these rifles? I couldn’t find any information about this.
> 
> Since the beginning of 2001 several hundred thousand units have been produced under license.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/09/22/russia-exports-100-000-aks/
> 
> @Path-Finder You wanted to know features of AK-103 well here are some for you
> 
> *CZ Scorpion Evo 3 Machine Gun | FULL AUTO!!!*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The CZ Scorpion Evo 3 made a heck of a splash when it was introduced in 2010 and an even bigger splash when it hit the US market in 2015. In this episode of TFB TV, Patrick gets a chance to put some ammo through a factory machine gun and really get acquainted with the sub gun. Since this is a dealer sample, it gets all of the cool things like a 4 position selector switch, a folding stock, and we even have a tri-lug adaptor on the end of the machine gun so a Dead Air Wolf 9SD suppressor can be fitted for the ultimate in sub gun goodness.
> 
> Big thanks to Boeh from SAW Inc. for loaning us the firearm and thanks to Triple C range in Cresson, Texas for letting us make a ton of noise!
> 
> http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/09/22/cz-scorpion-evo-3-machine-gun-full-auto/





Zarvan said:


> *Russia exports more than 100 000 AKs*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sanctions aside, things seem to be going well for Russian firearms export.
> 
> Rosoboronexport is the only state organization in Russia for exporting the entire range of military, dual-use products and services and technologies.
> 
> The Director General of Rosoboronexport, Alexander Mikheev, reported that the volume of foreign deliveries of various versions of the Kalashnikov assault rifle exceeded 100 000 units for 2017.
> 
> According to Mr. Mikheev Rosoboronexport concluded seven foreign contracts in 2017 for the supply of more than 100 000 Kalashnikov rifles of various modifications for export.
> 
> The bulk of supplies are from the “One hundred series” like the *AK-101, AK-102, AK-103, AK-104 and AK-105.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Here’s a brief introduction to these different models:*
> 
> 
> 
> *In short the AK-101 and -102 are 5,56×45 mm.*
> 
> *The AK-103 and -104 are 7,62х39 mm.*
> 
> *The AK-105 is 5,45х39 mm.*
> 
> 
> 
> In a bit more detail. Please note that the pictures are not to scale.
> 
> *AK-101 in 5,56×45 mm*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kalashnikov AK101 meets all of the Land Forces’ and Special Forces’ needs.
> 
> Plastic folding buttstock ensures convenience on the march, during transportation and landing operations. The weapon retains the ability to fire with the folded buttstock.
> 
> The forearm, magazine, buttstock, and pistol grip are made of high-strength plastic and feature great durability to stress. Protective coatings ensure excellent corrosion resistance of metal parts.
> 
> The AK101 features a base to mount a 40-mm under-barrel grenade launcher or a knife-bayonet; and a side mounting rail for night and daylight sights.
> 
> Muzzle compensator provides for cyclic fire accuracy and further reduces muzzle climb and burst recoil.
> 
> Company quality control system and all-around test programs make the AK101 the ultimate world standard in 5.56mm.
> 
> 
> 
> *AK-102 in 5,56×45*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kalashnikov assault rifle AK102 meets all of the Land Forces’ and Special Forces’ needs. Having the same caliber, the AK102 differs from the AK101 in shortened barrel and flash hider.
> 
> The AK102 features a side mounting rail to accommodate night and daylight sights
> 
> 
> 
> *AK103 in 7,62х39*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The AK103 is the third generation of the Kalashnikov assault rifles, a thorough upgrade of the world known AK47 and AKM.
> 
> The AK103 has plastic folding buttstock that ensures convenience on the march, during transportation and landing operations. The weapon can fire with butt stock folded.
> 
> Forearm, magazine, buttstock, and pistol grip are made of high-strength plastic and feature great durability to stress. Protective coatings ensure excellent corrosion resistance of metal parts.
> 
> The AK103 can carry a 40-mm under-barrel grenade launcher or a knife-bayonet.
> 
> There is a side dove-tail mounting rail for optical, collimator or night sights.
> 
> New muzzle brake provides for cyclic fire accuracy and further reduces muzzle climb and burst recoil.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *AK-104 in 7,62х39*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The AK104 is the third generation of the Kalashnikov rifles, a thorough upgrade of the world known AK47 and AKM. Having the same caliber, the AK104 differs from the AK103 in shortened barrel and flash hider.
> 
> Plastic folding buttstock ensures convenience on the march, during transportation and landing operations. The weapon can fire with buttstock folded.
> 
> The forearm, magazine, buttstock, and pistol grip are made of high-strength plastic and feature great durability to stress. Protective coatings ensure excellent corrosion resistance of metal parts.
> 
> There is a side dove-tail mounting rail for optical, collimator or night sights.
> 
> New muzzle brake provides for cyclic fire accuracy and further reduces muzzle climb and burst recoil.
> 
> 
> 
> *AK-105 in 5,45х39*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kalashnikov rifle AK105 meets all of the Land Forces’ and Special Forces’ needs. Having the same caliber, the AK105 differs from the AK74M in shortened barrel and flash hider.
> 
> Plastic folding buttstock ensures convenience on march, during transportation and landing operations. The weapon retains the ability to fire with folded butt stock.
> 
> The forearm, magazine, buttstock, and pistol grip are made of high-strength plastic and feature great durability to stress. Protective coatings ensure excellent corrosion resistance of metal parts.
> 
> The AK105 features a side mounting rail to accommodate night and daylight sights.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Furthermore, Rosoboronexport has also assisted several countries to start up production under license of AK rifles.
> 
> More than 15 000 Kalashnikov rifles have been manufactured under license in 2017. Not a great number, but somebody is making them. It would be interesting to know which country or countries that are producing these rifles? I couldn’t find any information about this.
> 
> Since the beginning of 2001 several hundred thousand units have been produced under license.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/09/22/russia-exports-100-000-aks/
> 
> @Path-Finder You wanted to know features of AK-103 well here are some for you
> 
> *CZ Scorpion Evo 3 Machine Gun | FULL AUTO!!!*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The CZ Scorpion Evo 3 made a heck of a splash when it was introduced in 2010 and an even bigger splash when it hit the US market in 2015. In this episode of TFB TV, Patrick gets a chance to put some ammo through a factory machine gun and really get acquainted with the sub gun. Since this is a dealer sample, it gets all of the cool things like a 4 position selector switch, a folding stock, and we even have a tri-lug adaptor on the end of the machine gun so a Dead Air Wolf 9SD suppressor can be fitted for the ultimate in sub gun goodness.
> 
> Big thanks to Boeh from SAW Inc. for loaning us the firearm and thanks to Triple C range in Cresson, Texas for letting us make a ton of noise!
> 
> http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/09/22/cz-scorpion-evo-3-machine-gun-full-auto/





Zarvan said:


> *Russia exports more than 100 000 AKs*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sanctions aside, things seem to be going well for Russian firearms export.
> 
> Rosoboronexport is the only state organization in Russia for exporting the entire range of military, dual-use products and services and technologies.
> 
> The Director General of Rosoboronexport, Alexander Mikheev, reported that the volume of foreign deliveries of various versions of the Kalashnikov assault rifle exceeded 100 000 units for 2017.
> 
> According to Mr. Mikheev Rosoboronexport concluded seven foreign contracts in 2017 for the supply of more than 100 000 Kalashnikov rifles of various modifications for export.
> 
> The bulk of supplies are from the “One hundred series” like the *AK-101, AK-102, AK-103, AK-104 and AK-105.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Here’s a brief introduction to these different models:*
> 
> 
> 
> *In short the AK-101 and -102 are 5,56×45 mm.*
> 
> *The AK-103 and -104 are 7,62х39 mm.*
> 
> *The AK-105 is 5,45х39 mm.*
> 
> 
> 
> In a bit more detail. Please note that the pictures are not to scale.
> 
> *AK-101 in 5,56×45 mm*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kalashnikov AK101 meets all of the Land Forces’ and Special Forces’ needs.
> 
> Plastic folding buttstock ensures convenience on the march, during transportation and landing operations. The weapon retains the ability to fire with the folded buttstock.
> 
> The forearm, magazine, buttstock, and pistol grip are made of high-strength plastic and feature great durability to stress. Protective coatings ensure excellent corrosion resistance of metal parts.
> 
> The AK101 features a base to mount a 40-mm under-barrel grenade launcher or a knife-bayonet; and a side mounting rail for night and daylight sights.
> 
> Muzzle compensator provides for cyclic fire accuracy and further reduces muzzle climb and burst recoil.
> 
> Company quality control system and all-around test programs make the AK101 the ultimate world standard in 5.56mm.
> 
> 
> 
> *AK-102 in 5,56×45*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kalashnikov assault rifle AK102 meets all of the Land Forces’ and Special Forces’ needs. Having the same caliber, the AK102 differs from the AK101 in shortened barrel and flash hider.
> 
> The AK102 features a side mounting rail to accommodate night and daylight sights
> 
> 
> 
> *AK103 in 7,62х39*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The AK103 is the third generation of the Kalashnikov assault rifles, a thorough upgrade of the world known AK47 and AKM.
> 
> The AK103 has plastic folding buttstock that ensures convenience on the march, during transportation and landing operations. The weapon can fire with butt stock folded.
> 
> Forearm, magazine, buttstock, and pistol grip are made of high-strength plastic and feature great durability to stress. Protective coatings ensure excellent corrosion resistance of metal parts.
> 
> The AK103 can carry a 40-mm under-barrel grenade launcher or a knife-bayonet.
> 
> There is a side dove-tail mounting rail for optical, collimator or night sights.
> 
> New muzzle brake provides for cyclic fire accuracy and further reduces muzzle climb and burst recoil.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *AK-104 in 7,62х39*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The AK104 is the third generation of the Kalashnikov rifles, a thorough upgrade of the world known AK47 and AKM. Having the same caliber, the AK104 differs from the AK103 in shortened barrel and flash hider.
> 
> Plastic folding buttstock ensures convenience on the march, during transportation and landing operations. The weapon can fire with buttstock folded.
> 
> The forearm, magazine, buttstock, and pistol grip are made of high-strength plastic and feature great durability to stress. Protective coatings ensure excellent corrosion resistance of metal parts.
> 
> There is a side dove-tail mounting rail for optical, collimator or night sights.
> 
> New muzzle brake provides for cyclic fire accuracy and further reduces muzzle climb and burst recoil.
> 
> 
> 
> *AK-105 in 5,45х39*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kalashnikov rifle AK105 meets all of the Land Forces’ and Special Forces’ needs. Having the same caliber, the AK105 differs from the AK74M in shortened barrel and flash hider.
> 
> Plastic folding buttstock ensures convenience on march, during transportation and landing operations. The weapon retains the ability to fire with folded butt stock.
> 
> The forearm, magazine, buttstock, and pistol grip are made of high-strength plastic and feature great durability to stress. Protective coatings ensure excellent corrosion resistance of metal parts.
> 
> The AK105 features a side mounting rail to accommodate night and daylight sights.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Furthermore, Rosoboronexport has also assisted several countries to start up production under license of AK rifles.
> 
> More than 15 000 Kalashnikov rifles have been manufactured under license in 2017. Not a great number, but somebody is making them. It would be interesting to know which country or countries that are producing these rifles? I couldn’t find any information about this.
> 
> Since the beginning of 2001 several hundred thousand units have been produced under license.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/09/22/russia-exports-100-000-aks/
> 
> @Path-Finder You wanted to know features of AK-103 well here are some for you
> 
> *CZ Scorpion Evo 3 Machine Gun | FULL AUTO!!!*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The CZ Scorpion Evo 3 made a heck of a splash when it was introduced in 2010 and an even bigger splash when it hit the US market in 2015. In this episode of TFB TV, Patrick gets a chance to put some ammo through a factory machine gun and really get acquainted with the sub gun. Since this is a dealer sample, it gets all of the cool things like a 4 position selector switch, a folding stock, and we even have a tri-lug adaptor on the end of the machine gun so a Dead Air Wolf 9SD suppressor can be fitted for the ultimate in sub gun goodness.
> 
> Big thanks to Boeh from SAW Inc. for loaning us the firearm and thanks to Triple C range in Cresson, Texas for letting us make a ton of noise!
> 
> http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/09/22/cz-scorpion-evo-3-machine-gun-full-auto/


----------



## Zarvan

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Hazrat u have commited blasphemy in your own post


SCAR is participating in 7.62 X 51 category why you keep forgetting there are two tenders not one. One is to replace G3 and one is to replace Type 56. SCAR is participating to replace G3 not Type 56 for Type 56 AK-103 and BREN are main contenders


----------



## Arsalan

Its been ages since we discussed ANYTHING actually useful on the thread 
Even if someone tries to, like asking question that may help people learn more, those are ignored, videos are shared and we move on (if we have).

Would have appreciated is SOMEONE/ANYONE could have detailed the differences in AW-47 and AK103 for the readers to benefit from. Zarvan seems to know that 103 is much better but have nothing to share on "WHY" so perhaps someone else can do that? At least use this thread SOMETIMES for something constructive! PLEASE.

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## Path-Finder

Arsalan said:


> Its been ages since we discussed ANYTHING actually useful on the thread
> Even if someone tries to, like asking question that may help people learn more, those are ignored, videos are shared and we move on (if we have).
> 
> Would have appreciated is SOMEONE/ANYONE could have detailed the differences in AW-47 and AK103 for the readers to benefit from. Zarvan seems to know that 103 is much better but have nothing to share on "WHY" so perhaps someone else can do that? At least use this thread SOMETIMES for something constructive! PLEASE.



I have the exact same question and still our Derwaish and Muffakir hasn't enriched our thinking by telling us AK103 is better than AK47! Hazrat @Zarvan how soon can we expect an answer?

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> I have the exact same question and still our Derwaish and Muffakir hasn't enriched our thinking by telling us AK103 is better than AK47! Hazrat @Zarvan how soon can we expect an answer?


The AK103 is the third generation of the Kalashnikov assault rifles, a thorough upgrade of the world known AK47 and AKM.

The AK103 has plastic folding buttstock that ensures convenience on the march, during transportation and landing operations. The weapon can fire with butt stock folded.

Forearm, magazine, buttstock, and pistol grip are made of high-strength plastic and feature great durability to stress. Protective coatings ensure excellent corrosion resistance of metal parts.

The AK103 can carry a 40-mm under-barrel grenade launcher or a knife-bayonet.

There is a side dove-tail mounting rail for optical, collimator or night sights.

New muzzle brake provides for cyclic fire accuracy and further reduces muzzle climb and burst recoil.

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> The AK103 is the third generation of the Kalashnikov assault rifles, a thorough upgrade of the world known AK47 and AKM.
> 
> The AK103 has plastic folding buttstock that ensures convenience on the march, during transportation and landing operations. The weapon can fire with butt stock folded.
> 
> Forearm, magazine, buttstock, and pistol grip are made of high-strength plastic and feature great durability to stress. Protective coatings ensure excellent corrosion resistance of metal parts.
> 
> The AK103 can carry a 40-mm under-barrel grenade launcher or a knife-bayonet.
> 
> There is a side dove-tail mounting rail for optical, collimator or night sights.
> 
> New muzzle brake provides for cyclic fire accuracy and further reduces muzzle climb and burst recoil.



Hazrat i didn't ask for a copy and paste job from the internet!!!!!

I asked what is the difference between it and AK47 because you have got it in your head that it somehow is more advanced than AK47!!!

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## Sucha Kuggu

why not POF get one designed from Russia, get production unit from Russia or China or POF and produce them self? POF already making similar weapons. some one is talking one year evaluation time of above options under consideration, POF can take two even three years to make one them-self.


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## fitpOsitive

Sucha Kuggu said:


> why not POF get one designed from Russia and produce that them self? its not a rocket science. some one is talking one year evaluation time, POF can take two even three years to make one them-self.


Beta, is baat per tu 50 qatal hochuky PDF per. Some people dont like Russian rifles, and for no good reason. But there are two things: the real guys who actually are testing are definitely not the pdf guys, and we dont know what actually going on.


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## Sucha Kuggu

fitpOsitive said:


> Beta, is baat per tu 50 qatal hochuky PDF per. Some people dont like Russian rifles, and for no good reason. But there are two things: the real guys who actually are testing are definitely the pdf guys, and we dont know what actually going on.



They must be testing the guns on each other .


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## Zarvan

Friend took this picture from Neelam Muneer actress snapchat it seem SCAR is being used in Karachi firing range

@Path-Finder @Horus

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Friend took this picture from Neelam Muneer actress snapchat it seem SCAR is being used in Karachi firing range
> 
> @Path-Finder @Horus


Hazrat Now you have a reason to visit Karachi!!

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## SSGcommandoPAK

Yup she uploads pictures of her nephew firing different Riffles ( Aks/M4s) etc but this time her nephew was firing Scar riffle in Karachi Garrison skeet and shooting range .....

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## Ahmet Pasha

Moreover, he has praised cz scorpion in his post. Sheer blasphemy 


Path-Finder said:


> I have the exact same question and still our Derwaish and Muffakir hasn't enriched our thinking by telling us AK103 is better than AK47! Hazrat @Zarvan how soon can we expect an answer?



BTW why do army guys only get gori chitti women in their lives???

Moreover, he has praised cz scorpion in his post. Sheer blasphemy 


Path-Finder said:


> I have the exact same question and still our Derwaish and Muffakir hasn't enriched our thinking by telling us AK103 is better than AK47! Hazrat @Zarvan how soon can we expect an answer?



BTW why do army guys only get gori chitti women in their lives???


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## Path-Finder

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Moreover, he has praised cz scorpion in his post. Sheer blasphemy
> 
> 
> BTW why do army guys only get gori chitti women in their lives???
> 
> Moreover, he has praised cz scorpion in his post. Sheer blasphemy
> 
> 
> BTW why do army guys only get gori chitti women in their lives???


clearly you haven't visited the images section


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## LegitimateIdiot

P


Army research said:


> Please enlighten us on the differences ( muzzle brake is an external add on, so that doesn't count )


Picitanny rail


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## Path-Finder

LegitimateIdiot said:


> P
> 
> Picitanny rail



No doesn't count


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## Ahmet Pasha

Yar aik bar ye rifle select ho jaye mein apne mohallay ke tamam goron mein mathai banton ga


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## Thunder.Storm

I heard a rumour,that pak army going for scar in x51 category but there is problem related to finance, thanks to nora leeg(pardon my spelling)

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## Path-Finder

Thunder.Storm said:


> I heard a rumour,that pak army going for scar in x51 category but there is problem related to finance, thanks to nora leeg(pardon my spelling)



Hazrat @Zarvan at least give him a like!

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## Thunder.Storm

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat @Zarvan at least give him a like!


It is not confirmed. But you will see more disturbing news according to pak economy due to heavy loans and a friend told me that next budget is also in jeopardy. I don't know about these news if are correct or wrong but if some buddy have knowledge about economy situation of Pakistan's , will tell us about truth.


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## Path-Finder

Thunder.Storm said:


> It is not confirmed. But you will see more disturbing news according to pak economy due to heavy loans and a friend told me that next budget is also in jeopardy. I don't know about these news if are correct or wrong but if some buddy have knowledge about economy situation of Pakistan's , will tell us about truth.



Can only make Dua now!

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## Zarvan

Thunder.Storm said:


> It is not confirmed. But you will see more disturbing news according to pak economy due to heavy loans and a friend told me that next budget is also in jeopardy. I don't know about these news if are correct or wrong but if some buddy have knowledge about economy situation of Pakistan's , will tell us about truth.


Money is not what is the issue here or delaying matters. Arrival of companies from USA has delayed things but now not much time is left.


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## django

Zarvan said:


> Money is not what is the issue here or delaying matters. Arrival of companies from USA has delayed things but now not much time is left.


In other words Hazrat all your claims were *"truthful hyperbole" *.."cough" "cough" @Path-Finder

"SCAR was best performing rifle in trials"


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## Thunder.Storm

Zarvan said:


> Money is not what is the issue here or delaying matters. Arrival of companies from USA has delayed things but now not much time is left.


It's all about money. For example if money was not the problem then now a days we were discussing our euro fighter t3 inventory of 4 squadrons and there specs. Believe it or not it is one of the problem.


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## Zarvan

Thunder.Storm said:


> It's all about money. For example if money was not the problem then now a days we were discussing our euro fighter t3 inventory of 4 squadrons and there specs. Believe it or not it is one of the problem.


I can assure you money is the not the issue here and even in case of fighter Jets the delay is for other reasons.



django said:


> In other words Hazrat all your claims were *"truthful hyperbole" *.."cough" "cough" @Path-Finder
> 
> "SCAR was best performing rifle in trials"


My claims are right SCAR is still the best many more new Rifles have arrived and gone through tests but have failed to beat SCAR SCAR being best in trials didn't meant we weren't going to test more Rifles we are making investment of 50 years we would test any option we can get our hands on

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## Path-Finder

django said:


> In other words Hazrat all your claims were *"truthful hyperbole" *.."cough" "cough" @Path-Finder
> 
> "SCAR was best performing rifle in trials"



Our Hazrat's reputation is in tatters sorry to say.


Zarvan said:


> I can assure you money is the not the issue here and even in case of fighter Jets the delay is for other reasons.
> 
> 
> My claims are right SCAR is still the best many more new Rifles have arrived and gone through tests but have failed to beat SCAR SCAR being best in trials didn't meant we weren't going to test more Rifles we are making investment of 50 years we would test any option we can get our hands on



Hazrat SCAR was a program by SOCOM and is SCAR SCAR a new program by SOCOM?

Can you give one inkling of how you have calculated that there are enough funds? you are a terrible soothsayer but now an economist as well?

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Our Hazrat's reputation is in tatters sorry to say.
> 
> 
> Hazrat SCAR was a program by SOCOM and is SCAR SCAR a new program by SOCOM?
> 
> Can you give one inkling of how you have calculated that there are enough funds? you are a terrible soothsayer but now an economist as well?


I know about the funds they are not the issue


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## bananarepublic

Zarvan said:


> I know about the funds they are not the issue



Zarvan sahib just look at our foreign reserves money don't pop out of nowhere nor they grow on trees... And frankly scar is an overpriced gun ..


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## Path-Finder

bananarepublic said:


> Zarvan sahib just look at our foreign reserves money don't pop out of nowhere nor they grow on trees... And frankly scar is an overpriced gun ..



Welcome to SCAR haters club.

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## Zarvan




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## django

Zarvan said:


> *My claims are right SCAR is still the best*


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## Thunder.Storm




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## DESERT FIGHTER

Thunder.Storm said:


> View attachment 429545


Have seen similar mods with Pak army.

2 MG3s on 1 tripod.

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## The Fist

https://defence.pk/pdf/index.php?posts/9816437


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## That Guy

Thunder.Storm said:


> It is not confirmed. But you will see more disturbing news according to pak economy due to heavy loans and a friend told me that next budget is also in jeopardy. I don't know about these news if are correct or wrong but if some buddy have knowledge about economy situation of Pakistan's , will tell us about truth.


Neither are loans a big problem,nor is the next budget in jeopardy. I don't know who your friend is, but he clearly doesn't know a thing about how the economy works.

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## Arsalan

That Guy said:


> Neither are loans a big problem,nor is the next budget in jeopardy. I don't know who your friend is, but he clearly doesn't know a thing about how the economy works.


There is a serious problem my friend. While % of loans is increasing, no steps have been taken in last 9-10 years to bring in reforms and development that will enable us to pay off these loans. Serious concerns there and need some serious actions, immediately!!


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## Mumm-Ra

Thunder.Storm said:


> It is not confirmed. But you will see more disturbing news according to pak economy due to heavy loans and a friend told me that next budget is also in jeopardy. I don't know about these news if are correct or wrong but if some buddy have knowledge about economy situation of Pakistan's , will tell us about truth.


Calm down...Nothing is going to happen to the next budget. He might have heard some comment from the TV show hosts who have zero skills in matters pertaining to economics.



Arsalan said:


> There is a serious problem my friend. While % of loans is increasing, no steps have been taken in last 9-10 years to bring in reforms and development that will enable us to pay off these loans. Serious concerns there and need some serious actions, immediately!!


The loans taken by the government for infrastructure development projects can be repaid back but the the percentage of loans taken to meet its operating expenses is troublesome. With lesser finances available through tax collection, the government borrows heavily from either the central bank or via open market to meet its expenses. Thus it creates a crowding out effect with less funds available to give to other sectors. The banks are happy with this situation as with no risk they are getting returns and do not have to go through the hassle of giving out advances to businessmen for expanding businesses. The only new loans they give or new products they devise are due to pressure from the SBP, but at the SBP is itself castrated at the moment, the banks are more than happy to give whatever available funds to the government and get risk free return.



Zarvan said:


> Money is not what is the issue here or delaying matters. Arrival of companies from USA has delayed things but now not much time is left.


Allah k banday koi khuda ka khouf khao yr...

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## SSGcommandoPAK

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Have seen similar mods with Pak army.
> 
> 2 MG3s on 1 tripod.


If you have any picture please do share !
Thanks ...


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## Path-Finder

Xlvee01 said:


> Calm down...Nothing is going to happen to the next budget. He might have heard some comment from the TV show hosts who have zero skills in matters pertaining to economics.
> 
> 
> The loans taken by the government for infrastructure development projects can be repaid back but the the percentage of loans taken to meet its operating expenses is troublesome. With lesser finances available through tax collection, the government borrows heavily from either the central bank or via open market to meet its expenses. Thus it creates a crowding out effect with less funds available to give to other sectors. The banks are happy with this situation as with no risk they are getting returns and do not have to go through the hassle of giving out advances to businessmen for expanding businesses. The only new loans they give or new products they devise are due to pressure from the SBP, but at the SBP is itself castrated at the moment, the banks are more than happy to give whatever available funds to the government and get risk free return.
> 
> 
> Allah k banday koi khuda ka khouf khao yr...


so there will be no issue in making the budget? for the coming fiscal year?


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## Mumm-Ra

Path-Finder said:


> so there will be no issue in making the budget? for the coming fiscal year?



The next budget will not be presented till June 2018. The Ministry of finance usually starts the process after the new year. So as of yet, there is gonna be no issue in making the next budget.


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## Path-Finder

Xlvee01 said:


> The next budget will not be presented till June 2018. The Ministry of finance usually starts the process after the new year. So as of yet, there is gonna be no issue in making the next budget.



Let me understand this better. There is a huge debt of say $40 billion that has to be repaid and repayment is no where to be seen. Auditor general says money is leaving the country due to corruption. Everyone is talking about the treasury is empty because of the money launderer of sharif tubbar!

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## Mumm-Ra

Path-Finder said:


> Let me understand this better. There is a huge debt of say $40 billion that has to be repaid and repayment is no where to be seen. Auditor general says money is leaving the country due to corruption. Everyone is talking about the treasury is empty because of the money launderer of sharif tubbar!


The debt payments are not one time payments. The say $40 billion dollar debt will not be paid in one go. Foreign debt payment are made due some 10-15 years after the debt has been disbursed. The only foreign debt that we will have to repay in the short run back is the IMF one and that is $500 million in the first tranche. As far as domestic debts are concerned so they are rescheduled. Relax...nothing is going to happen that will destroy the financial system of the country.


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## Path-Finder

Xlvee01 said:


> The debt payments are not one time payments. The say $40 billion dollar debt will not be paid in one go. Foreign debt payment are made due some 10-15 years after the debt has been disbursed. The only foreign debt that we will have to repay in the short run back is the IMF one and that is $500 million in the first tranche. As far as domestic debts are concerned so they are rescheduled. Relax...nothing is going to happen that will destroy the financial system of the country.


I hope you are right!


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## Mumm-Ra

so anyways...back to business...which rifle is being selected?


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## fitpOsitive

Xlvee01 said:


> so anyways...back to business...which rifle is being selected?


Well this will be a outcome of this thread, and so far we are waiting!!!


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## Mumm-Ra

fitpOsitive said:


> Well this will be a outcome of this thread, and so far we are waiting!!!


What a shock will it be for the majority here if its SCAR 
But let's wait and see..


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Kalashnikov AK-103 won as a contract was signed between Pakistan and Russia few weeks back







End of story


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## Zarvan

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Kalashnikov AK-103 won as a contract was signed between Pakistan and Russia few weeks back
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> End of story



It's for civilian market secondly there are two contracts one for 7.62 X 51 and one for 7.62 X 39 and similar contracts are signed with other countries also so not the end of story


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## fitpOsitive

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Kalashnikov AK-103 won as a contract was signed between Pakistan and Russia few weeks back
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> End of story


Not a big fan of 103, but the latest AKs are good man, may be 107. And if contract goes to Russians, I will be more than happy.


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## Kompromat

This was just a sales and marketing MOU 



AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Kalashnikov AK-103 won as a contract was signed between Pakistan and Russia few weeks back
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> End of story

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## Zarvan

Horus said:


> This was just a sales and marketing MOU


I am pretty sure you know exactly what is going on so when are you going to open your mouth and tell us about it and please avoid telling me that you are just a farmer


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## lastofthepatriots

I am in favor of AK-103.


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## That Guy

Arsalan said:


> There is a serious problem my friend. While % of loans is increasing, no steps have been taken in last 9-10 years to bring in reforms and development that will enable us to pay off these loans. Serious concerns there and need some serious actions, immediately!!


Plenty has been done, and Pakistan's economy is on the right track...despite the current situation, which was expected.

Don't worry too much. When the next elections come around, vote with your head and convince your family and friends to vote as well, and you'll do fine.


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> I wont


One of my friend is going to visit POF tomorrow I am hope some Army Officers there reveal something

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> One of my friend is going to visit POF tomorrow I am hope some Army Officers there reveal something


I don't care anymore who wins just adopt a new rifle already.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

The functions and benefits of a new rifle isn't exponentially greater than that of an older one. They're clearly prioritizing funding for things that are of significant need sooner than later, like frigates and upgrading HIT.

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## django

Zarvan said:


> One of my friend is going to visit POF tomorrow I am hope some Army Officers there reveal something


Hazrat Type 56 is going to be around for the foreseeable future, you can moan and groan all you like, that is the plain truth....BTW every Jawan loves the damn thing, it is like having their favourite lass on their arm.


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## Zarvan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The functions and benefits of a new rifle isn't exponentially greater than that of an older one. They're clearly prioritizing funding for things that are of significant need sooner than later, like frigates and upgrading HIT.


Sir when we started trials we knew we we have other weapons to buy also. That is not the thing which is causing the delay



django said:


> Hazrat Type 56 is going to be around for the foreseeable future, you can moan and groan all you like, that is the plain truth....BTW every Jawan loves the damn thing, it is like having their favourite lass on their arm.


The moment SSG got their hands on M4 Type 56 vanished. No forces don't have any love for any weapon the moment they get their hands on a better option you would see Type 56 vanishing


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## django

Zarvan said:


> The moment SSG got their hands on M4 Type 56 vanished. No forces don't have any love for any weapon the moment they get their hands on a better option you would see Type 56 vanishing


Give over Hazrat, SSG had access to M4 and M-16 for many years, yet still in Swat and other ops they were using type 56/AK variants heavily in these areas, M4 clearly has reliability issues as experienced by US occupation forces in Afghanistan.Kudos Hazrat

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## The Sandman

django said:


> Give over Hazrat, SSG had access to M4 and M-16 for many years, yet still in Swat and other ops they were using type 56/AK variants heavily in these areas, M4 clearly has reliability issues as experienced by US occupation forces in Afghanistan.Kudos Hazrat


Yea but bro M4 looks so freaking cool and deadly with all of them attachments meanwhile those ak's looks ancient....








django said:


> Kudos Hazrat

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## DESERT FIGHTER

django said:


> Hazrat Type 56 is going to be around for the foreseeable future, you can moan and groan all you like, that is the plain truth....BTW every Jawan loves the damn thing, it is like having their favourite lass on their arm.


Prefered over the MP5... which they teplaced.

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## Zarvan

django said:


> Give over Hazrat, SSG had access to M4 and M-16 for many years, yet still in Swat and other ops they were using type 56/AK variants heavily in these areas, M4 clearly has reliability issues as experienced by US occupation forces in Afghanistan.Kudos Hazrat


SSG got their hands on M4 in numbers they wanted only recently and since than Type 56 vanished. Type 56 is being used as it's better option than G3 in CQB the moment Army gets a better weapon both Type 56 and G3 will start going away but they are in such big numbers than replacement would take a decade to complete

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## django

Zarvan said:


> SSG got their hands on M4 in numbers they wanted only recently and since than Type 56 vanished. Type 56 is being used as it's better option than G3 in CQB the moment Army gets a better weapon both Type 56 and G3 will start going away but they are in such big numbers than replacement would take a decade to complete


Hazrat they have had it for ages, you know that as well as I.Kudos


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## DESERT FIGHTER

The Sandman said:


> Yea but bro M4 looks so freaking cool and deadly with all of them attachments meanwhile those ak's looks ancient....




As an owner of both.. id place my trust in an AK.... specially if you live in Pak.

Its reliable... ammo is cheaper,upgrades available and is rugged as FUK!

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## Zarvan

django said:


> Hazrat they have had it for ages, you know that as well as I.Kudos


No they didn't the moment USA gave them around few thousands M4 the Type 56 vanished. They moment they would get better weapon than M4 they would get rid of that also as fast as they can


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## django

The Sandman said:


> Yea but bro M4 looks so freaking cool and deadly with all of them attachments meanwhile those ak's looks ancient....


Bro this one even minus the aimpoint scope looks baddass, just imagine it with all the attachments


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## Path-Finder

Colt M4 makes no sense there are so many nations making similar weapons based on AR platform that buying from Colt.............. makes no sense.


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## django

Zarvan said:


> No they didn't the moment USA gave them around few thousands M4 the Type 56 vanished. They moment they would get better weapon than M4 they would get rid of that also as fast as they can


Hazrat SSG had access to Colt-commando, M-16, Car-15 then M4 arrived in very early years of WOT, it was considered high maintenance gear whereas AK variants had adequate accuracy and incredible reliability, in firefights with Talibs US forces M4 jammed sue to sustained firing (they overheated) whilst Taliban were blazing out ammo like their is no tomorrow, the accounts are available all over the internet Hazrat, please do your homework.Kudos Hazrat

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## The Sandman

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> As an owner of both.. id place my trust in an AK.... specially if you live in Pak.
> 
> Its reliable... ammo is cheaper,upgrades available and is rugged as FUK!


Well obv it's the most easy to use and reliable (too if am not wrong?) weapon. It takes a lot of ideas from guns like STG 44 (first assault rifle), M1 Grand and Remington 8 so it had to be good.


django said:


> Bro this one even minus the aimpoint scope looks baddass, just imagine it with all the attachments


 Putting attachments on an ak looks like as if putting a custom body on mehran (no offense to ak lovers).

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## django

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> As an owner of both.. id place my trust in an AK.... specially if you live in Pak.
> 
> Its reliable... ammo is cheaper,upgrades available and is rugged as FUK!
> 
> View attachment 431033
> View attachment 431034
> View attachment 431035
> View attachment 431036
> View attachment 431037
> View attachment 431038
> View attachment 431039
> View attachment 431040
> View attachment 431041


With those attachments AK variants look like a beast, not to mention the improved aim giving some extra accuracy to the already adequately accurate AK.Kudos bro



The Sandman said:


> Putting attachments on an ak looks like as if putting a custom body on mehran (no offense to ak lovers).


What this dont look like a beast

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## Path-Finder

AK's success is combination of both the Rifle and the round it fires 7.62x39

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## django

@The Sandman @Path-Finder Hazrat @Zarvan @DESERT FIGHTER 
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...r&utm_medium=SumoMe&utm_campaign=sumome_share

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## Zarvan

django said:


> @The Sandman @Path-Finder Hazrat @Zarvan @DESERT FIGHTER
> http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...r&utm_medium=SumoMe&utm_campaign=sumome_share


Already posted in Naval Section and SIG is also part of Military trials but @Horus and I doubt they would give us TOT. German Police also recently ordered hundreds of SIG MCX. So let see what happens in trials a friend is visiting POF today I hope he manages to get some latest news

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## The Sandman

django said:


> @The Sandman @Path-Finder Hazrat @Zarvan @DESERT FIGHTER
> http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...r&utm_medium=SumoMe&utm_campaign=sumome_share


Feels good to see navy seals getting some great stuff!

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## Gryphon

Last week, a CZ source told @TheOccupiedKashmir that negotiations with Pakistan remain "ongoing".

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## Amaa'n

Zarvan said:


> No they didn't the moment USA gave them around few thousands M4 the Type 56 vanished. They moment they would get better weapon than M4 they would get rid of that also as fast as they can


oh pai!!!! we had M16 from 90s and later in 2004 M4 came, but T56 / AK was the weapon of choice

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## Basel

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Kalashnikov AK-103 won as a contract was signed between Pakistan and Russia few weeks back
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> End of story



How good AK-103 is? Specially compared to other similar weapons in the market.



Zarvan said:


>



It's not suitable for CQB, he should have gone for short barrel at least, although MP-5/7 are suited here.

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## SurvivoR

I prefer the AK-12... Any chance to get a hand on the latest version?

Sent from my HTC One X9 dual sim using Defence.pk mobile app


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## Zarvan

django said:


> Bro this one even minus the aimpoint scope looks baddass, just imagine it with all the attachments



Well if we decide to replace Type 56 with AK-103 than this is the upgrade we want to go ahead with

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## Path-Finder

If POF can be modernised like the way Kalashnikov Factory has been modernised then that will be a step forward.

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## fitpOsitive

Yesterday I dreamed that finally Beretta is chosen. 


Path-Finder said:


> If POF can be modernised like the way Kalashnikov Factory has been modernised then that will be a step forward.



Tried any latest AK?


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## Vergennes

lastofthepatriots said:


> What a stupid choice for a weapon inside of a train.





Zarvan said:


> When your trains are getting attacked bombed and Firing than you need the weapon





Basel said:


> It's not suitable for CQB, he should have gone for short barrel at least, although MP-5/7 are suited here.



This soldier is part of the operation "Vigilant Guardian" the Belgian army put in place due to terror threat,to secure public places,which include train stations. He must have taken the subway to get to and patrol another station,that's it.

Just like here ;


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## lastofthepatriots

Vergennes said:


> This soldier is part of the operation "Vigilant Guardian" the Belgian army put in place due to terror threat,to secure public places,which include train stations. He must have taken the subway to get to and patrol another station,that's it.
> 
> Just like here ;


And he didn't pull out his side arm as opposed to the assault rifle, why? Especially in such a tight and condensed area? I could sneak behind the dumb *** in the picture with his huge assault rifle and knock him out before he could maneuver his rifle towards me. Whereas, If the soldier had his smaller firearm out, I would have almost no chance.

I say this hypothetically to prove the point that this weapon is not meant for CQB, especially when one is guarding a subway train.


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## Vergennes

lastofthepatriots said:


> And he didn't pull out his side arm as opposed to the assault rifle, why? Especially in such a tight and condensed area? I could sneak behind the dumb *** in the picture with his huge assault rifle and knock him out before he could maneuver his rifle towards me. Whereas, If the soldier had his smaller firearm out, I would have almost no chance.
> 
> I say this hypothetically to prove the point that this weapon is not meant for CQB, especially when one is guarding a subway train.



Because he couldn't get his hand on his sidearm ? 

FYI,Belgian soldiers patrol in pairs,sometimes more.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Ukraine partnered with Aeroscraft to develop the M4-WAC-47. This is an AR-15-based assault rifle capable of firing 7.62x39 mm rounds. Seriously, what it would it take to get POF to find an experienced AR designer and simply make a custom AR for the PA? The SSG seems to be content with the AR-platform, so it should be OK, no? @balixd @PAR 5

http://ukroboronprom.com.ua/uk/medi...7-gotovi-vyprobuvan-zahysnykamy-ukrayiny.html


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Path-Finder said:


> Nein, Niet.


Don't make SCAR fans out of the wrong people bro ... don't go there

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## Thorough Pro

MP5 is a CQB weapon, not comparable to M4 or Type 56 which are assault rifles



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Prefered over the MP5... which they teplaced.


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## Silahtar

He is talking about 950 thousand pieces of arms production request by Pakistan. Do you have any information about this?

http://www.memleket.com.tr/konya-milli-silaha-talip-1236851h.htm


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## lastofthepatriots

Thorough Pro said:


> MP5 is a CQB weapon, not comparable to M4 or Type 56 which are assault rifles



I think you might be a little bit confused man.


----------



## Path-Finder

Silahtar said:


> He is talking about 950 thousand pieces of arms production request by Pakistan. Do you have any information about this?
> 
> http://www.memleket.com.tr/konya-milli-silaha-talip-1236851h.htm



Damn! @Bilal Khan (Quwa) Hazrat @Zarvan @TheOccupiedKashmir


----------



## Thunder.Storm

Path-Finder said:


> Damn! @Bilal Khan (Quwa) Hazrat @Zarvan @TheOccupiedKashmir


It's Turkish news not Pakistan's.


----------



## Path-Finder

Thunder.Storm said:


> It's Turkish news not Pakistan's.



Turkey is competing for Pakistani Tender! Did you read the news?


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Damn! @Bilal Khan (Quwa) Hazrat @Zarvan @TheOccupiedKashmir


Wrong News


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## Thorough Pro

no I am not, MP5 is 9mm. It is not comparable to M4 (5.56x45) and Type 56 (7.62x39). First one is a CQB/Guard duty/PD weapon. Later two are assault weapons.



lastofthepatriots said:


> I think you might be a little bit confused man.


----------



## lastofthepatriots

Thorough Pro said:


> no I am not, MP5 is 9mm. It is not comparable to M4 (5.56x45) and Type 56 (7.62x39). First one is a CQB/Guard duty/PD weapon. Later two are assault weapons.



I agree with you on the type 56, but the m4 is designed to be a cqb weapon. Its variants such as m4a1 are not.


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## Thorough Pro

I am not saying M4 is a long range weapon, it is a CQB weapon but the caliber is much more powerful than MP5's 9mm. M4's are used by assault units, MP's are not used as assault weapon. However they are the favourite for hostage rescue ops due to low recoil, high accuracy and reliability. 



lastofthepatriots said:


> I agree with you on the type 56, but the m4 is designed to be a cqb weapon. Its variants such as m4a1 are not.

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## Amaa'n

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Ukraine partnered with Aeroscraft to develop the M4-WAC-47. This is an AR-15-based assault rifle capable of firing 7.62x39 mm rounds. Seriously, what it would it take to get POF to find an experienced AR designer and simply make a custom AR for the PA? The SSG seems to be content with the AR-platform, so it should be OK, no? @balixd @PAR 5
> 
> http://ukroboronprom.com.ua/uk/medi...7-gotovi-vyprobuvan-zahysnykamy-ukrayiny.html


if you recall not so long ago there was indeed a news surfacing that POF is researching on developing a new rifle inhouse --- and what i personally believed out of that news was that these trails are just a ploy to test different weapon systems, study them.... see what works best for us..... pick an OEM who would partner with us in this development, who would let us built on their design ----ending up with an enhanced & improved version of the rifle ----
That is why i was more inclined to CZ or zastava getting the contract as both would be more accomodating with the idea -----
If you look at POF Inhouse built Sniper rifle then they used the kit & action from different rifles (AIX stock with Surgeon Action coupled with Steyr barrel)...........
so indeed it is possible



Thorough Pro said:


> I am not saying M4 is a long range weapon, it is a CQB weapon but the caliber is much more powerful than MP5's 9mm. M4's are used by assault units, MP's are not used as assault weapon. *However they are the favourite for hostage rescue ops due to low recoil, high accuracy and reliability*.


that is no longer a viable solution sir --- you were right in your earlier post that MP5 / MP7 are a PDW ----but saying they are in use for HR Ops, i would say it is wrong in today's world ..... with 9mm firing out of a sub machine gun with even a Supersonic round you will not be able to penetrate an attacker wearing NIJ IIA or NIJ III armor vest ---- hence it has been replaced with a heavier round of 5.56 x 45

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

balixd said:


> if you recall not so long ago there was indeed a news surfacing that POF is researching on developing a new rifle inhouse --- and what i personally believed out of that news was that these trails are just a ploy to test different weapon systems, study them.... see what works best for us..... pick an OEM who would partner with us in this development, who would let us built on their design ----ending up with an enhanced & improved version of the rifle ----
> That is why i was more inclined to CZ or zastava getting the contract as both would be more accomodating with the idea -----
> If you look at POF Inhouse built Sniper rifle then they used the kit & action from different rifles (AIX stock with Surgeon Action coupled with Steyr barrel)...........
> so indeed it is possible
> 
> 
> that is no longer a viable solution sir --- you were right in your earlier post that MP5 / MP7 are a PDW ----but saying they are in use for HR Ops, i would say it is wrong in today's world ..... with 9mm firing out of a sub machine gun with even a Supersonic round you will not be able to penetrate an attacker wearing NIJ IIA or NIJ III armor vest ---- hence it has been replaced with a heavier round of 5.56 x 45


If you notice smaller manufacturers, like Caracal in the UAE, are making custom AR-variants. They found some consultants with experience in AR design and built from there. This should be doable for POF, I guess it's an issue of how much each rifle would cost and if it is feasible to issue it at mass (including the necessary training to use and maintain said rifles): http://www.caracal.ae/product.php?lang=en&product_id=5

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## Amaa'n

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> If you notice smaller manufacturers, like Caracal in the UAE, are making custom AR-variants. They found some consultants with experience in AR design and built from there. This should be doable for POF, I guess it's an issue of how much each rifle would cost and if it is feasible to issue it at mass (including the necessary training to use and maintain said rifles): http://www.caracal.ae/product.php?lang=en&product_id=5


we don't need to hire a consultant, POF already has a pool of experienced consultants / Vets at their disposal who can assist them --- one very known name is Col (r). Javed omer, the man behind the development of Pof Azb sniper (bolt action) --- not only that he is among the few who back in days coupled a 7mm parker hale action to a russian 54R barrel (mosin nagant) ----

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## Muhammad Omar

Did they made the decision already????


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## Zarvan

balixd said:


> we don't need to hire a consultant, POF already has a pool of experienced consultants / Vets at their disposal who can assist them --- one very known name is Col (r). Javed omer, the man behind the development of Pof Azb sniper (bolt action) --- not only that he is among the few who back in days coupled a 7mm parker hale action to a russian 54R barrel (mosin nagant) ----


Sir no in house Assault Rifle is being designed the senate briefing was referring new Rifles being tested. Even the new Sniper Rifle which was designed Army doesn't seem to be much interested in adopting it


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## Mr.Cringeworth

lastofthepatriots said:


> but the m4 is designed to be a cqb weapon.


yes the carbine version not the regular one.

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## Zarvan

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Ap to jese Army ki sagi puphi ho na!


I am trying to get info 24/7. Even the new Sniper hasn't got much interest from Army

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## Amaa'n

Zarvan said:


> I am trying to get info 24/7. Even the new Sniper hasn't got much interest from Army


that is indeed correct, at most it is serving the elite or the professional class of the country who are into Long range shooting


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## Thunder.Storm

New rifle is not coming in 2018 too. Bad News


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## Path-Finder

Thunder.Storm said:


> New rifle is not coming in 2018 too. Bad News


{ } = 

Hazrat @Zarvan what are your sources?


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## Zarvan

Thunder.Storm said:


> New rifle is not coming in 2018 too. Bad News


And who told you that ??? Tests are taking place and we can hear about the winner anytime. Could be this year or next year.

@Horus


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> And who told you that ??? Tests are taking place and we can hear about the winner anytime. Could be this year or next year.
> 
> @Horus


two years have already passed and you keep saying little more time, little more time and tag Horus as well.

why not take a leaf from Horus book and keep quiet about it? clearly you don't know!

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## DESERT FIGHTER

balixd said:


> that is indeed correct, at most it is serving the elite or the professional class of the country who are into Long range shooting


POF official claimed they were working on a new variant of LSR?


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## Zarvan

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> POF official claimed they were working on a new variant of LSR?


Sir POF can be working on that no issue issue is I doubt any of our force has placed order of LSR.

*A closer look at the Kalashnikov AK-100M Series*








The Firearm Blog is proud to present a line of unique pictures of the new and improved *Kalashnikov AK-100M* series.

The *AK-100M* is the modernized version of the AK-100, with the obvious addition of the “M” in the name.

It’s interesting to see some of the modifications I personally did to my AK (albeit a Shotgun, to make it more ergonomic and better to shoot) many years ago now find their way to production rifles. And I don’t claim to have been the first to have used those parts or modifications, far from.

*The AK-100M Series*

Kalashnikov have taken some of the improvements that came about in connection with the development of the AK-12. The AK-12 is similar to an improved AK-74M, although it is a new production with better quality.

Some of the “M” improvements are:

• Rails and Picatinny.
• Rigid, dust cover with optical orientation rail etc. Note, however, that you still have a short line of sight for the irons.
• Ergonomic grip• New adjustable stock. I’m told you can get height adjustment too.

• New flash hider
• Price about 1000 US Dollar

• Most spare parts for the old AK-100 can still be used with M models (which is not the case with the AK-12 in relation to the AK-74M.)


*Caliber wise, here’s a list of how each model is chambered.*

*In short the AK-101M and -102M are 5,56×45 mm.*

AK-101 here.






Below: AK101M in 5,56×45 mm. Magazine latch clearly visible.






Below: AK101M in 5,56×45 mm. The magazine is fairly straight. Note the side “rail” on the front grip, I’m not sure what it’s for? It looks like a sling attachment.






Below: AK103M in 7,62×39 mm and grenade launcher. Banana magazine. You can check the AK-103 here.






Below: AK103M in 7,62×39 mm and grenade launcher. Note the possible sling attachment.






Below: AK103M in 7,62×39 mm and grenade launcher






Below: The AK105M in 5,56×39 mm. Note the magazine which has windows and numbered 10, 15, 20 until 30.






Below: The AK105M in 5,56×39 mm.






Below: AK105M in 5,45×39 mm






Below: AK105M in 5,45×39 mm. Note the EOTech. Still, the line of sight with the irons remain unchanged.






Below: AK105M in 5,45×39 mm. Note the numbers that indicate the stock’s extension.






Below: AK105M in 5,45×39 mm






To compare versus the 105M, you can check the AK105 here.

Many thanks to our secret photographer for all help, used with permission.










http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...lashnikov-ak-100m-series-tfb-unique-pictures/

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## django

Path-Finder said:


> why not take a leaf from Horus book and keep quiet about it? clearly you don't know!


Some sensible advice for you Hazrat!

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## Zarvan

@Horus Janab any new update ????


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## Thunder.Storm

No.


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> @Horus Janab any new update ????



Hazrat these are ARX 100! not 200

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat these are ARX 100! not 200


Hazrat I know that but when I say Pakistan should produce more than one Rifle series I mean all calibers of that Gun. For example we should produce both 5.56 and 7.62 versions of SCAR and if 7.62 X 39 comes than also that one. And with SCAR either Beretta or some other Rifle series should come.



fitpOsitive said:


> Bhai yeh Itali wala general aisy hi aaya hoga ghomanay phirnay....aaplog ziada andazy na qaim kerlain.


I am not reaching any conclusion and although Berreta is a Italian company but a private company so we all know that.

@Horus

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Hazrat I know that but when I say Pakistan should produce more than one Rifle series I mean all calibers of that Gun. For example we should produce both 5.56 and 7.62 versions of SCAR and if 7.62 X 39 comes than also that one. And with SCAR either Beretta or some other Rifle series should come.
> 
> 
> I am not reaching any conclusion and although Berreta is a Italian company but a private company so we all know that.



Hazrat if only wishes were horses! The cost of making more rifles than needed is huge financial burden. Not even the US does that.

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## fitpOsitive

Zarvan said:


> Hazrat I know that but when I say Pakistan should produce more than one Rifle series I mean all calibers of that Gun. For example we should produce both 5.56 and 7.62 versions of SCAR and if 7.62 X 39 comes than also that one. And with SCAR either Beretta or some other Rifle series should come.
> 
> 
> I am not reaching any conclusion and although Berreta is a Italian company but a private company so we all know that.


 I know, just clowning around.
I voted for Berreta btw.


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat if only wishes were horses! The cost of making more rifles than needed is huge financial burden. Not even the US does that.


USA doesn't do it because it has hundreds of private companies and yes we need to encourage private sector but Janab we will get permission to export and just imagine the kind of market we can capture. Because many many African and South American and Muslim country can't afford to buy Rifles directly from Italy or Belgium or Switzerland but same rifles produced by us will cost way less


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> USA doesn't do it because it has hundreds of private companies and yes we need to encourage private sector but Janab we will get permission to export and just imagine the kind of market we can capture. Because many many African and South American and Muslim country can't afford to buy Rifles directly from Italy or Belgium or Switzerland but same rifles produced by us will cost way less



Hazrat Let me quiz you on something! Lets say you get your wish and FN is being produced in Pakistan, first there will have to be a complete transfer of skill which entails people being trained on the manufacturing followed by the Machining and Tooling that will be used to set up shop.

The cost of that will be high very! Do you know how much each machine costs? any rough Ideas? These are not the ancient machines you see when you are out and about in your Bazar but highly advanced. But one machine wont do the job many machines are needed to make just one rifle.

Then you have to take into consideration materials needs the special type of alloy's along with polymers and I can tell you now Hazrat Pakistan steel mill is in trouble! High Quality polymers you tell me where they are being produced? Each rifle uses different tensile strength of alloys for all components in it.

Factor all of this in then tell me you want to make more than one rifle. can you be that sure that the end product will be so cheap that others will place orders? Because once the production begins priority number 1 will be to fulfill Pakistan's orders not foreign orders!

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## Muhammad Omar

Any Update Hint on when they will take the decision????


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat Let me quiz you on something! Lets say you get your wish and FN is being produced in Pakistan, first there will have to be a complete transfer of skill which entails people being trained on the manufacturing followed by the Machining and Tooling that will be used to set up shop.
> 
> The cost of that will be high very! Do you know how much each machine costs? any rough Ideas? These are not the ancient machines you see when you are out and about in your Bazar but highly advanced. But one machine wont do the job many machines are needed to make just one rifle.
> 
> Then you have to take into consideration materials needs the special type of alloy's along with polymers and I can tell you now Hazrat Pakistan steel mill is in trouble! High Quality polymers you tell me where they are being produced? Each rifle uses different tensile strength of alloys for all components in it.
> 
> Factor all of this in then tell me you want to make more than one rifle. can you be that sure that the end product will be so cheap that others will place orders? Because once the production begins priority number 1 will be to fulfill Pakistan's orders not foreign orders!


Producing new Rifle it not totally different thing that our guys would need lot of training on few days of training will be enough and yes we know what machine costs only after doing that we went for rifle trials. And yes end product will be way cheaper than European Price


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Producing new Rifle it not totally different thing that our guys would need lot of training on few days of training will be enough and yes we know what machine costs only after doing that we went for rifle trials. And yes end product will be way cheaper than European Price



That makes no sense Hazrat I was expecting a detailed answer with good technical detail that would educate me among other member of the forum on the benefits of producing more than one OEM rifle.

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> That makes no sense Hazrat I was expecting a detailed answer with good technical detail that would educate me among other member of the forum on the benefits of producing more than one OEM rifle.


The Labor cost and also material cost will much less also other factors are involved. Even we were getting more orders of G3 for same reason not just that we were only one left producing it but also because our costs were way less than other countries


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> The Labor cost and also material cost will much less also other factors are involved. Even we were getting more orders of G3 for same reason not just that we were only one left producing it but also because our costs were way less than other countries



Again Hazrat you have just given a sweeping statement. The old G3 and the newer rifles, there is a century that splits them apart in their manufacturing process. Anyway you don't have a concise answer to it so let's leave it at that.

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## django

Hazrat @Zarvan All quiet on the SCAR front?????? looking less likely by the day, get used to a variant of the CZ 807, much much,,,much more likely.Kudos Hazrat

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## Zarvan

django said:


> Hazrat @Zarvan All quiet on the SCAR front?????? looking less likely by the day, get used to a variant of the CZ 807, much much,,,much more likely.Kudos Hazrat


SCAR front is most strongest front CZ BREN chances are fading away. It seem their are high chances that in 7.62 X 39 series we may go for AK-100 series I mean mainly AK-103. In 7.62 X 51 it's pretty much SCAR show


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## django

Zarvan said:


> SCAR front is most strongest front CZ BREN chances are fading away. It seem their are high chances that in 7.62 X 39 series we may go for AK-100 series I mean mainly AK-103. *In 7.62 X 51 it's pretty much SCAR show*


Saboot???????


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## Path-Finder

django said:


> Saboot???????



He will Tag Horus and make a statement that does not hold water

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## django

Path-Finder said:


> He will Tag Horus and make a statement that does not hold water


My perception exactly.Kudos yaar

Hazrat @Zarvan a tag to Horus does not constitute any evidence in defence of your constantly debunked supposition. I seek real hard evidence or you will be considered in immediate contempt of court!!!!!
@The Sandman @Path-Finder @Hell hound @Signalian

SCAR was best performing rifle in trials

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## SSGcommandoPAK

*Indian Army finalises mega procurement plan to replace ageing weapons !
7 lakh rifles, 44,000 light machine guns (LMGs) and nearly 44,600 carbines . *
http://indianexpress.com/article/in...ement-plan-to-replace-ageing-weapons-4912003/

Even India has started replacing its Insas and we are making khiyali pulao over here .... 
Indian army already has M4s , Tavor-21 and other modern riffles in large quantity and now they are procuring another 7 Lakh riffles to replace their Insas ! 

Bhai I think we should close this stupid thread , nothing is getting final , no sources , no updates , no images to prove anything ! 

lol this Thread was started back in 2015 now 2018 ane wale hai , in the first few weeks only we saw few images uske baad only rumors and trolling about Scar , Cz , AK etc

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## Zarvan

Captain Woods said:


> *Indian Army finalises mega procurement plan to replace ageing weapons !
> 7 lakh rifles, 44,000 light machine guns (LMGs) and nearly 44,600 carbines . *
> http://indianexpress.com/article/in...ement-plan-to-replace-ageing-weapons-4912003/
> 
> Even India has started replacing its Insas and we are making khiyali pulao over here ....
> Indian army already has M4s , Tavor-21 and other modern riffles in large quantity and now they are procuring another 7 Lakh riffles to replace their Insas !
> 
> Bhai I think we should close this stupid thread , nothing is getting final , no sources , no updates , no images to prove anything !
> 
> lol this Thread was started back in 2015 now 2018 ane wale hai , in the first few weeks only we saw few images uske baad only rumors and trolling about Scar , Cz , AK etc


Yes things are slow but tests are taking place. I can tell you few Guns was recently handed over to Marines for testing can't tell which ones but issue is some Rifles which were initially bad went back made changes and return for trials so things are happening but not at the pace we all want to see



django said:


> Saboot???????


Can't post saboot here but SCAR is pretty much done deal in 7.62 X 51 category and 7.62 X 39 could be any one but all recent reports suggest that AK-100 series chances are increasing as compared to BREN. Soldiers didn't liked BREN much and I tag @Horus just because he has best sources but I have also other sources.

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Yes things are slow but tests are taking place. I can tell you few Guns was recently handed over to Marines for testing can't tell which ones but issue is some Rifles which were initially bad went back made changes and return for trials so things are happening but not at the pace we all want to see
> 
> 
> Can't post saboot here but SCAR is pretty much done deal in 7.62 X 51 category and 7.62 X 39 could be any one but all recent reports suggest that AK-100 series chances are increasing as compared to BREN. Soldiers didn't liked BREN much and I tag @Horus just because he has best sources but I have also other sources.



Hazrat there is hikmat in keeping quiet clearly you have said the exact same sentences like a broken record and present nothing more than sensationalism. now you have added AK series in there.

If BREN is no good than why are they adopting AK100? or rather showing interest in it when Type 56 should be just good enough for them. As AK 100 is just furnishing and the main mechanism of the workings dates back to the 1940's! If you put the same furnishing on a Type 56 then it will become *modernised*! That is it.

If you had saboot you would have posted it. Two years on this thread and all you have ever said is I cannot post saboot.

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## The Sandman

django said:


> My perception exactly.Kudos yaar
> 
> Hazrat @Zarvan a tag to Horus does not constitute any evidence in defence of your constantly debunked supposition. I seek real hard evidence or you will be considered in immediate contempt of court!!!!!
> @The Sandman @Path-Finder @Hell hound @Signalian
> 
> SCAR was best performing rifle in trials


Just like meera is stuck age of 27 since 10-15 years the same way SCAR will remain best performing rifle till judgement day   @Arsalan

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat there is hikmat in keeping quiet clearly you have said the exact same sentences like a broken record and present nothing more than sensationalism. now you have added AK series in there.
> 
> If BREN is no good than why are they adopting AK100? or rather showing interest in it when Type 56 should be just good enough for them. As AK 100 is just furnishing and the main mechanism of the workings dates back to the 1940's! If you put the same furnishing on a Type 56 then it will become *modernised*! That is it.
> 
> If you had saboot you would have posted it. Two years on this thread and all you have ever said is I cannot post saboot.


I don't know but soldiers liked AK-100 more than BREN. Initially news of BREN also came when their were rumors that AK is not agreeing to TOT but it seem things are changing and AK chances are increasing


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> I don't know but soldiers liked AK-100 more than BREN. Initially news of BREN also came when their were rumors that AK is not agreeing to TOT but it seem things are changing and AK chances are increasing


once again sensationalism! Rupert Murdoch pays good money for people to write in his papers!

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## django

Zarvan said:


> soldiers didn't liked BREN much and* I tag @Horus just because he has best sources* *but I have also other sources.*


Then and again.....



The Sandman said:


> Just like meera is stuck age of 27 since 10-15 years the same way SCAR will remain best performing rifle till judgement day   @Arsalan

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## Amaa'n

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> POF official claimed they were working on a new variant of LSR?


i didn't hear any such thing....and as @Zarvan has said, there is no interest frm Forces side to LSR....idk why is that so.... because in Long range competitions this rifle has competed against top of the line shooters with AW and Remington ......

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## DESERT FIGHTER

balixd said:


> i didn't hear any such thing....and as @Zarvan has said, there is no interest frm Forces side to LSR....idk why is that so.... because in Long range competitions this rifle has competed against top of the line shooters with AW and Remington ......


IDEAS Expo interview.

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## Arsalan

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat if only wishes were horses! The cost of making more rifles than needed is huge financial burden. Not even the US does that.


Dont you know???

MONEY IS NOT AN ISSUE!!

Btaya ni ap ko? 

Even though the country is on brink of going under and the gov. might not have enough in their coffers to pay for its expense for the month of December, MONEY IS NOT AN ISSUE!

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## Vergennes

Arsalan said:


> Dont you know???
> 
> MONEY IS NOT AN ISSUE!!
> 
> Btaya ni ap ko?
> 
> Even though the country is on brink of going under and the gov. might not have enough in their coffers to pay for its expense for the month of December, MONEY IS NOT AN ISSUE!



You guys HAVE the MONEY. You didn't wake up one day and say "Hey,let's have a tender". Everything was planned !

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## Arsalan

The Sandman said:


> Just like meera is stuck age of 27 since 10-15 years the same way SCAR will remain best performing rifle till judgement day   @Arsalan


bahi KOIIIIIIIIIIIIIi faida ni is magaz maari ka. Just ignore the thread 3 4 weeks baad dekh lea kro myri tarha if there is any update. I am not sure if there will be one anytime soon. Will be going to Wah on Thursday and if this topic is brought up will try to find out what is happening.



Vergennes said:


> You guys HAVE the MONEY. You didn't wake up one day and say "Hey,let's have a tender". Everything was planned !


Yessssssss
EXACTLY!!

Look at him @Path-Finder !! He is not from Pakistan but even he knows that "MONEY IS NOT AN ISSUE".

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## Zarvan

Vergennes said:


> You guys HAVE the MONEY. You didn't wake up one day and say "Hey,let's have a tender". Everything was planned !


Exactly and every second day a new news of some new weapon comes up so we are not getting all of them for free.


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## Arsalan

balixd said:


> i didn't hear any such thing....and as @Zarvan has said, there is no interest frm Forces side to LSR....idk why is that so.... because in Long range competitions this rifle has competed against top of the line shooters with AW and Remington ......


Balixd, i was discussing this with two irrelevant people. I say irrelevant as even though they are in POF they are responsible for other equipment (other than gun). During the discussion i was told that YES in general, army is looking to adopt an exported gun by producing it in Pakistan and also that meeting the local requirement and export and being given equal importance in this particular tender (usually the system is procured purely on domestic needs and then we may market it for exports as well). However despite this, there are some people in posts and positions of influence and importance who still have love for a fully home grown solution. Though out numbered and unlikely to change course of things, these peoples have managed to kept the idea alive for now at least in meetings and all. However, the chances of things going on to that route are slim.


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## Zarvan

Vergennes said:


> You guys HAVE the MONEY. You didn't wake up one day and say "Hey,let's have a tender". Everything was planned !


Exactly and every second day a new news of some new weapon comes up so we are not getting all of them for free.


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## Path-Finder

Arsalan said:


> bahi KOIIIIIIIIIIIIIi faida ni is magaz maari ka. Just ignore the thread 3 4 weeks baad dekh lea kro myri tarha if there is any update. I am not sure if there will be one anytime soon. Will be going to Wah on Thursday and if this topic is brought up will try to find out what is happening.
> 
> 
> Yessssssss
> EXACTLY!!
> 
> Look at him @Path-Finder !! He is not from Pakistan but even he knows that "MONEY IS NOT AN ISSUE".



Yes he is just kicking back and enjoying the sketch



Zarvan said:


> Exactly and every second day a new news of some new weapon comes up so we are not getting all of them for free.





Zarvan said:


> Exactly and every second day a new news of some new weapon comes up so we are not getting all of them for free.



Hazrat I concur what I said earlier. If few Gunsmiths in Peshawar using outdated machining and ancient tooling can make a Glock 19 as good as it is shown then I suppose they can start churning out FN SCAR as well. POF should rely on this huge pool of people to make FN SCAR 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/924684846730969090


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Yes he is just kicking back and enjoying the sketch
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hazrat I concur what I said earlier. If few Gunsmiths in Peshawar using outdated machining and ancient tooling can make a Glock 19 as good as it is shown then I suppose they can start churning out FN SCAR as well. POF should rely on this huge pool of people to make FN SCAR
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/924684846730969090


One friend showed me a picture of SCAR with other AK and said this is made in Darra but other friend disagreed AI am still trying to confirm the picture whether that one is really Darra made or something else


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> One friend showed me a picture of SCAR with other AK and said this is made in Darra but other friend disagreed AI am still trying to confirm the picture whether that one is really Darra made or something else



Hazrat that is welcome break for you to do some field work and give your internet and computer a welcome break. Why not pay Darra a visit and find a FN SCAR made there. It will benefit both you and the Forum!


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat that is welcome break for you to do some field work and give your internet and computer a welcome break. Why not pay Darra a visit and find a FN SCAR made there. It will benefit both you and the Forum!








This is the picture but other friend says and I quote " SCAR-L . And it's not darra made, it's .22LR copy of SCAR-L from an Austrian company."


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> This is the picture but other friend says and I quote " SCAR-L . And it's not darra made, it's .22LR copy of SCAR-L from an Austrian company."



Interesting! Well Hazrat are you likely to do the field work and visit Darra? One picture is not enough!


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## Amaa'n

You should go and kiss the hands of the Friend who said this is a .22lr version....
at first, I have handled this gun at the local shop, almost every store has it ...... second, look at the ejection port, from what angle that looks like a port to churn out a 5.56 or .223rem spent cartridge .....


Zarvan said:


> This is the picture but other friend says and I quote " SCAR-L . And it's not darra made, it's .22LR copy of SCAR-L from an Austrian company."





Path-Finder said:


> Yes he is just kicking back and enjoying the sketch
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hazrat I concur what I said earlier. If few Gunsmiths in Peshawar using outdated machining and ancient tooling can make a Glock 19 as good as it is shown then I suppose they can start churning out FN SCAR as well. POF should rely on this huge pool of people to make FN SCAR
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/924684846730969090


thing about local gun smiths is that they are really good at finish, accuracy & all, however with guns there is more to this.....the main point where we lack is the Metallurgy, the material used....how well it is heat treated etc....that is where we get the hit right in the groin.....

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## Zarvan

balixd said:


> You should go and kiss the hands of the Friend who said this is a .22lr version....
> at first, I have handled this gun at the local shop, almost every store has it ...... second, look at the ejection port, from what angle that looks like a port to churn out a 5.56 or .223rem spent cartridge .....
> 
> 
> thing about local gun smiths is that they are really good at finish, accuracy & all, however with guns there is more to this.....the main point where we lack is the Metallurgy, the material used....how well it is heat treated etc....that is where we get the hit right in the groin.....


Sir if a small company can do that good copy than I am pretty sure POF can do much better but they only need to some sense being put into them


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## Path-Finder

balixd said:


> You should go and kiss the hands of the Friend who said this is a .22lr version....
> at first, I have handled this gun at the local shop, almost every store has it ...... second, look at the ejection port, from what angle that looks like a port to churn out a 5.56 or .223rem spent cartridge .....
> 
> 
> thing about local gun smiths is that they are really good at finish, accuracy & all, however with guns there is more to this.....the main point where we lack is the Metallurgy, the material used....how well it is heat treated etc....that is where we get the hit right in the groin.....



That is a serious pool of talent that is just wasted away, with proper teaching in advanced metallurgy techniques they can achieve wonders. With additional machining and tooling knowledge of course. Just like in the US they have private enterprises furthering small arms development.


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## Amaa'n

Path-Finder said:


> That is a serious pool of talent that is just wasted away, with proper teaching in advanced metallurgy techniques they can achieve wonders. With additional machining and tooling knowledge of course. Just like in the US they have private enterprises furthering small arms development.


bhai....that is US......they have an arms industry because one can walk into Walmart and buy a rifle with his shotgun....here we dont enjoy that luxury.....we have to drag our butts outside DC office just to get a single arm license let alone a rifle......effed up country it is right now


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## Zarvan

balixd said:


> bhai....that is US......they have an arms industry because one can walk into Walmart and buy a rifle with his shotgun....here we dont enjoy that luxury.....we have to drag our butts outside DC office just to get a single arm license let alone a rifle......effed up country it is right now


Rana Tanveer visiting Czech Republic with a Major General it could be for BREN although he didn't mentioned why he is visiting

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## The Sandman

Arsalan said:


> bahi KOIIIIIIIIIIIIIi faida ni is magaz maari ka. Just ignore the thread 3 4 weeks baad dekh lea kro myri tarha if there is any update. I am not sure if there will be one anytime soon. Will be going to Wah on Thursday and if this topic is brought up will try to find out what is happening.


Really this thread is going in circles now.

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## Amaa'n

Zarvan said:


> Rana Tanveer visiting Czech Republic with a Major General it could be for BREN although he didn't mentioned why he is visiting


it could be for many other reasons than small arms.....just stay optimistic......whatever comes out as a winner will be the best, be it a CZ Bren, AK or SCAR


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## Zarvan

balixd said:


> it could be for many other reasons than small arms.....just stay optimistic......whatever comes out as a winner will be the best, be it a CZ Bren, AK or SCAR


Sir I am not worried about BREN because BREN will replace Type 56 not G3. For G3 SCAR and other Rifles are competing.


*Rana Tanveer to visit Czech Republic to promote defence production industry*









ISLAMABAD: A two- member delegation of Ministry of Defence Production headed by Federal Minister for Defence Production Rana Tanveer Hussain departed for Prague on three day’s official visit to Czech Republic.

Major General Tariq Ghafoor, Additional Secretary Ministry of Defence Production is also member of the delegation.

The minister’s visit to the Czech Republic has a special significance for promoting Pakistan’s defence production industry, says a press release.

Rana Tanveer’s visit is also part of his efforts for development of defence industry during past four years.

The minister will hold meetings with Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs Martin Tlapa and Deputy Minister of Defence Tomas Kuchta.






Rana Tanveer Hussain will also visit AERO Vodochody AEROSPACE, a defence facility of Czech Republic and OMNIPOL Company trading on defence and aerospace technologies in Prague.

https://www.brecorder.com/2017/10/3...ublic-to-promote-defence-production-industry/


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Rana Tanveer visiting Czech Republic with a Major General it could be for BREN although he didn't mentioned why he is visiting



Hazrat I tagged you in a post you didn't pay any attention to it. It is most likely about acquiring Precision Machining and Tooling From Czech Firm Skoda! Tanks are being made using these machines in HIT



balixd said:


> bhai....that is US......they have an arms industry because one can walk into Walmart and buy a rifle with his shotgun....here we dont enjoy that luxury.....we have to drag our butts outside DC office just to get a single arm license let alone a rifle......effed up country it is right now



Damn I didn't expect this, I alway expect optimism from you. There is a gifted labour and if baby steps are taken it can blossom. But yes leadership visionary thinking is lacking.


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## Ahmet Pasha

Rana tanvir has been doing good work.
Why did he visit aero vodochody?????
Any ideas??? @fatman17 @Bilal Khan (Quwa)


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Rana tanvir has been doing good work.
> Why did he visit aero vodochody?????
> Any ideas??? @fatman17 @Bilal Khan (Quwa)


Re: Aero Vodochody, probably to forge a partnership between Aero and PAC, e.g. get Aero to send some manufacturing work to PAC. That or take a look at the revived L-159 ALCA line. The PAF had reportedly shown interest in the L-159 a few years ago.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Getting business share from them is good.

But isnt l159 a bit redundant vis a vis K8?


Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Re: Aero Vodochody, probably to forge a partnership between Aero and PAC, e.g. get Aero to send some manufacturing work to PAC. That or take a look at the revived L-159 ALCA line. The PAF had reportedly shown interest in the L-159 a few years ago.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Getting business share from them is good.
> 
> But isnt l159 a bit redundant vis a vis K8?


The L-159 is a more powerful aircraft (28 kN turbofan vs. K-8's 16 kN), basically a LIFT platform (albeit lighter than the L-15/M-346/Yak-130). You'd have a L-159-like plane bridge between the K-8 and JF-17.


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## Ahmet Pasha

Hmm does make sense.
But IMO thats just too much cuz theres super mashak, t37 tweet, k8 and then theres OCU aircrafts as well.
What are the anti tank/CAS capabilities of the L159 like compared to K8??


Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The L-159 is a more powerful aircraft (28 kN turbofan vs. K-8's 16 kN), basically a LIFT platform (albeit lighter than the L-15/M-346/Yak-130). You'd have a L-159-like plane bridge between the K-8 and JF-17.


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## Path-Finder

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Hmm does make sense.
> But IMO thats just too much cuz theres super mashak, t37 tweet, k8 and then theres OCU aircrafts as well.
> What are the anti tank/CAS capabilities of the L159 like compared to K8??



continue off topic discussion here

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/rana...ence-production-industry.526012/#post-9981539


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## django

Arsalan said:


> *Will be going to Wah on Thursday *and if this topic is brought up *will try to find out what is happening*.


Please do keep us informed bhai, we have become sick of the good Hazrats so-called claims, until then it is adieu from me.Kudos bro


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## fatman17

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Getting business share from them is good.
> 
> But isnt l159 a bit redundant vis a vis K8?


Effective CAS

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## Ahmet Pasha

Come here:
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/rana...ence-production-industry.526012/#post-9981539


fatman17 said:


> Effective CAS


----------



## Arsalan

balixd said:


> You should go and kiss the hands of the Friend who said this is a .22lr version....
> at first, I have handled this gun at the local shop, almost every store has it ...... second, look at the ejection port, from what angle that looks like a port to churn out a 5.56 or .223rem spent cartridge .....
> 
> 
> thing about local gun smiths is that they are really good at finish, accuracy & all, however with guns there is more to this.....the main point where we lack is the Metallurgy, the material used....how well it is heat treated etc....that is where we get the hit right in the groin.....


As long as we were getting gun barrels from those destroyed Soviet tanks in Afghanistan the material part was well addressed. Things have changed now. There was a drive during Musharraf era to bring these Darra manufacturers under gov. umbrella, train some on modern machines, support the procurement of such facilities and get them toward making fancy guns people buy as show piece as well as hunting guns (away from the prohibited stuff). That went up in smoke after Musharraf and that is that. The industry there really lost its charm and position after the ongoing operations. That talent could have been transformed into $$$ easily.


----------



## mingle

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The L-159 is a more powerful aircraft (28 kN turbofan vs. K-8's 16 kN), basically a LIFT platform (albeit lighter than the L-15/M-346/Yak-130). You'd have a L-159-like plane bridge between the K-8 and JF-17.


They can use againest Talibs .Two Sqd will be great to take off burden from rest of Airforce .yes they not expensive 10 million per copy .Iraq used them againest Daesh with great results.


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## Naveed66

Zarvan said:


> SCAR front is most strongest front CZ BREN chances are fading away. It seem their are high chances that in 7.62 X 39 series we may go for AK-100 series I mean mainly AK-103. In 7.62 X 51 it's pretty much SCAR show


Right now it seems that arx200 is ahead in g3 category. We haven't heard anything from Fn. At the moment cz and beretta are showing a lot of interest to get orders and provide Tot.


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## Zarvan

Naveed66 said:


> Right now it seems that arx200 is ahead in g3 category. We haven't heard anything from Fn. At the moment cz and beretta are showing a lot of interest to get orders and provide Tot.


You won't hear anything from FN ever.


----------



## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> You won't hear anything from FN ever.



Is FN a secretive organisation? Does it keep in the shadows?

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Is FN a secretive organisation? Does it keep in the shadows?


No but until they sign the deal they won't say much


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> No but until they sign the deal they won't say much



What a load of croc Hazrat! are you a spokesperson for them? 

Only FN keep quiet

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> What a load of croc Hazrat! are you a spokesperson for them?
> 
> Only FN keep quiet


No but I know few things I have even hardly seen Beretta guys claiming anything it's only CZ which has big mouth and that has pissed of Army leadership a lot


----------



## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> No but I know few things I have even hardly seen Beretta guys claiming anything it's only CZ which has big mouth and that has pissed of Army leadership a lot



Hazrat FN are divine you tell us that at every passing moment. Dare I say you do Phand pona for FN.


----------



## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat FN are divine you tell us that at every passing moment. Dare I say you do Phand pona for FN.


No company has talked about any thing on trials except for CZ and this has not went well with Armed Forces leadership. So you can keep laughing as much as you want but I know this for sure

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> No company has talked about any thing on trials except for CZ and this has not went well with Armed Forces leadership. So you can keep laughing as much as you want but I know this for sure



Hazrat you receive wahi. We already know your answers.


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## django

Path-Finder said:


> Is FN a secretive organisation? Does it keep in the shadows?


They have a Robert Mueller type fellow in charge of things, hence no leaks to the good Hazrat.Kudos

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## Thorough Pro

Anyone who owns an FN will directly go to Jannah



Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat FN are divine you tell us that at every passing moment. Dare I say you do Phand pona for FN.

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## Thunder.Storm



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## Rana4pak

I think selection of gun is for 50 years so it will take 50 years for selection

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## HannibalBarca

I come around this thread every few years... MAy I have an Update? or same as before? still "waiting"?


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## Zarvan




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## Path-Finder

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/928686078000877569
Muqadas

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## django

Thunder.Storm said:


>


Hazrat @Zarvan


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## Mughal-Prince

Thunder.Storm said:


>


WTF man which type of rounds are these, which explodes in the end.

I personally like this Sh!T man [emoji16]


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## Army research

Mughal-Prince said:


> WTF man which type of rounds are these, which explodes in the end.
> 
> I personally like this Sh!T man [emoji16]


Fps Russia edits his videos


----------



## RAMPAGE

Mughal-Prince said:


> Es ka ho chuka bhai aap ko nahin pata


Kab? Kis ki zindagi barbad hoi?

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## Mughal-Prince

RAMPAGE said:


> Kab? Kis ki zindagi barbad hoi?


Hum sub ki hui na jub es ka nikah Defence.pk say hua ... yaar kamal kertay ho panday ji

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## Path-Finder

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/929236780515250176

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## Zarvan



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## Bratva

Path-Finder said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/929236780515250176



Kalbushan Yadav ?


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## Arsalan

Bratva said:


> Kalbushan Yadav ?


Holding a SCAR even HE becomes "halal"

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## Zarvan



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## Mumm-Ra

SecularNationalist said:


> I have a question for you maulana jee.Why are you advocating kuffar tech here?Why don't you present some molvi made rifle for our army after all you are superior than anyone else around.


You may disagree with Zarvan but that does not give you the right to ridicule him over his outlook or beliefs. Posters such as pathfinder etc call him hazrat simply as an unofficial name. If you ask him, he has utmost respect for Zarvan as patriot. His posts may seem erratic and borderline insane but Zarvan wants the best for the defense of the country and that should never be rediculed. Next time when you redicule another, remember their contribution to the forum and then look at yours.

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## fitpOsitive

Maarkhoor said:


> I have an idea we will raise fund together (PDF members) to buy J-10 (model) and Scar (BB version) for Zarvan to make him happy.



Jokes apart, I personally want to buy a G-3 before PoF stops its production. The problem is: I am a civilian.


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## Mumm-Ra

fitpOsitive said:


> Jokes apart, I personally want to buy a G-3 before PoF stops its production. The problem is: I am a civilian.



If you go by the book and try to get its lisence, you won’t get it. I think it comes under restricted weapons. You gotta know someone in some high place to get it

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## fitpOsitive

Xlvee01 said:


> If you go by the book and try to get its lisence, you won’t get it. I think it comes under restricted weapons. You gotta know someone in some high place to get it


Actually I can buy it, but again the its a prohibited bore.


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## Mumm-Ra

fitpOsitive said:


> Actually I can buy it, but again the its a prohibited bore.

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## Maarkhoor

fitpOsitive said:


> Jokes apart, I personally want to buy a G-3 before PoF stops its production. The problem is: I am a civilian.


There are some versions semi auto 7mm you can have one bit not the original.

Personally i don't like G3 would prefer AK over it for many reasons.

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## Zarvan

SecularNationalist said:


> I have a question for you maulana jee.Why are you advocating kuffar tech here?Why don't you present some molvi made rifle for our army after all you are superior than anyone else around.


Man your epic ignorance about Islam is just mind boggling do you know RASOOL SAW also used swords made by Kafirs and adopted tech of weapons which were made by many times Kafirs Mr first go study Islam before promoting your views here

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## fitpOsitive

Maarkhoor said:


> There are some versions semi auto 7mm you can have one bit not the original.
> 
> Personally i don't like G3 would prefer AK over it for many reasons.


Its not about the Quality, its about what and who made it.

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## Awan68

SecularNationalist said:


> I have a question for you maulana jee.Why are you advocating kuffar tech here?Why don't you present some molvi made rifle for our army after all you are superior than anyone else around.


You are attacking the views of a man when he didnt do the same to u, textbook hypocrissy of u liberals at play, secondly all humans are created by Allah and wisdom and advancement in tech is not something akin to kuffr or athiesm but reflects human excellence when humans tweak around with materials provided by Allah to further their causes or provide comfort to masses, we are not creators merely inovators....u accuse him of lusting over kuffr tech, than let me remind u that all the basis of scientific advancement was provided by muslim mullahs as u call them from blood transfusion to trenchbuchets( from where modern artillery spews) to algebra(basis of all advancement in computers and mathematics etc), it was muslims who brought age of enlightment to europe via spain, europe considers ibn rushd the father of the age of enlightment, it was the calculations of muslim scientists that formed the basis of discoveries of newton etc, muslims fathered the study of chemistry...almost every modern development has some muslim mullah at its basis.....even the proper subjects of history and sociology were first introduced to the world by a muslim philosopher, the study of civilization.....science was the domain of muslim mullahs in baghdad when europe was burning witches at the stake, so all in all every kuffr tech has the discoveries of some muslim mullah at its basis so the majority of members at this forum who happen to be muslims would appreciate it if u would refrain from hurling personal judgements at people because they have beards etc, we would appreciate it if u would open ur mind enough to dispell the hatred u carry which blinds ur vision n blocks the flow of knowledge into ur rigid ,limited and extremist thought process, grow up, read some history instead of spewing ur igorance here.....p.s the mullahs as u call us muslims create cruise missles, ballistic missles, mirv techs, fighter aircraft, tanks, nuclear tech and a host of other things here in Pakistan while all u secularist athiests do is hurl insults at beards....dont dare to claim modern science as a domain of athiests as it was fathered and mostly created by mullahs...i have thrown u a bone of wisdom, now go fetch!!!

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## TheDarkKnight

SecularNationalist said:


> I have a question for you maulana jee.Why are you advocating kuffar tech here?Why don't you present some molvi made rifle for our army after all you are superior than anyone else around.


Technology or any other man made device, is not Kafir or Muslim - as it is not a living being with a conscious. Humans can be kafir/nonmulsim or muslim as they can make conscious decisions about God and their beliefs.

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## The Eagle

Back to the topic, please.

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## niaz

Xlvee01 said:


> You may disagree with Zarvan but that does not give you the right to ridicule him over his outlook or beliefs. Posters such as pathfinder etc call him hazrat simply as an unofficial name. If you ask him, he has utmost respect for Zarvan as patriot. His posts may seem erratic and borderline insane but Zarvan wants the best for the defense of the country and that should never be rediculed. Next time when you redicule another, remember their contribution to the forum and then look at yours.




Totally agree.

No one should be ridiculed or insulted because of his views. This is a scholarly forum. Disagreements due to difference of opinion, level & type of education etc. will always be there and should be welcome. Even the like-minded persons, close friends and husband / wife would often have disagreements on certain matters. Personally, I would not want to live in a world or join a society / forum where everyone had the same opinion on all the issues. 

A civilised behaviour implies disagreement without being rude and being firm without the abusive language. Being polite does not require rocket science but common decency.

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## django

Xlvee01 said:


> You may disagree with Zarvan but that does not give you the right to ridicule him over his outlook or beliefs. Posters such as pathfinder etc call him hazrat simply as an unofficial name. If you ask him, he has utmost respect for Zarvan as patriot. His posts may seem erratic and borderline insane but Zarvan wants the best for the defense of the country and that should never be rediculed. Next time when you redicule another, remember their contribution to the forum and then look at yours.


Well said sir.Kudos

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## Path-Finder

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/931085959319273472

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## Mumm-Ra

Path-Finder said:


> that is raan number two! first one got a little old


Hahaha...I don't know yaar..two pieces of art at the same time. That's every man's wish


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## Hexciter

Pakistan Seeks Polish Assault Rifles

November 20, 2017
A Pakistani delegation visited Poland last week to discuss procurement of some 500,000-800,000 assault rifles in a requirement that could be worth US$2 billion.
The potential of the acquisition and transfer of technology related to the production of small arms and ammunition was the main topic of talks between the board member of Maciej Lew-Mirski and the president of the Pakistan Ordnance Factory (POF), PGZ SA said in a statement last Friday.
Pakistan's armed forces have been preparing for a succession of years under the license of G-3 German rifles and Chinese type 56 rifles, modelled on Soviet AK and AKM designs.
This is the first of three such visits to the Polish Armaments Group planned for this year.
The delegation from Pakistan also visited "Łucznik" Arms Factory in Radom, Tarnów Mechanical Plant, MESKO in Skarżysko-Kamienna, and visited the training facility to familiarize with the equipment manufactured by the companies from the PGZ Group and used by the Polish Armed Forces.
Pakistan has a huge demand for small arms, which is linked to the unstable situation in their region. South Asia's arms race and internal threats force the defense industry to expand its capabilities in the field of modern weapons and ammunition.
“The PGZ sees great potential in cooperation with Islamabad, not only in the field of small arms but also in other areas of Pakistan's modernization program. Pakistan's defense budget for 2017-2018 is close to $ 9 billion, so it is definitely a fight,” said Maciej Lew-Mirski, a member of the board of PGZ SA.
discuss procurement of some 500,000-800,000 assault rifles in a requirement that could be worth US$2 billion.
The potential of the acquisition and transfer of technology related to the production of small arms and ammunition was the main topic of talks between the board member of Maciej Lew-Mirski and the president of the Pakistan Ordnance Factory (POF), PGZ SA said in a statement last Friday.
Pakistan's armed forces have been preparing for a succession of years under the license of G-3 German rifles and Chinese type 56 rifles, modelled on Soviet AK and AKM designs.
This is the first of three such visits to the Polish Armaments Group planned for this year.
The delegation from Pakistan also visited "Łucznik" Arms Factory in Radom, Tarnów Mechanical Plant, MESKO in Skarżysko-Kamienna, and visited the training facility to familiarize with the equipment manufactured by the companies from the PGZ Group and used by the Polish Armed Forces.
Pakistan has a huge demand for small arms, which is linked to the unstable situation in their region. South Asia's arms race and internal threats force the defense industry to expand its capabilities in the field of modern weapons and ammunition.
“The PGZ sees great potential in cooperation with Islamabad, not only in the field of small arms but also in other areas of Pakistan's modernization program. Pakistan's defense budget for 2017-2018 is close to $ 9 billion, so it is definitely a fight,” said Maciej Lew-Mirski, a member of the board of PGZ SA.
https://t.co/dPCOiCUGBx

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## Mumm-Ra

Finally..something constructive on this page. This seems like a big development as according to Quwa.org, the chairman of POF is also part of the delegation. Doesn’t look like the top man will go if they are not serious on this particular rifle.
http://quwa.org/2017/11/20/pakistan...land-discuss-potential-assault-rifle-program/

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## Hexciter

..


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## Hexciter

Hexciter said:


> Looks very SCARish @Zarvan
> View attachment 438177


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## Ahmet Pasha

@Quwa @Bilal Khan (Quwa) Loved the article. At the back of my mind i always knew that radom MSBS had potential as it also offers a bullpup. I even talked about it on this but no one seemed to give it much value back then.


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## Ahmet Pasha

That sounds unreal as he was infatuated with the SCAR. And spinning round and round in circles of ishq like a devout dervish of SCAR cult.


Path-Finder said:


> The Hazrat was the first to talk about it I remember. His fluke on this seemed legit
> 
> 
> 
> Hazrat is in brief mourning



He y have posted the new fresh news but i discussed it way back on this thread


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## Path-Finder

Ahmet Pasha said:


> That sounds unreal as he was infatuated with the SCAR. And spinning round and round in circles of ishq like a devout dervish of SCAR cult.
> 
> 
> He y have posted the new fresh news but i discussed it way back on this thread



which news?


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## Ahmet Pasha

The most recent one of POF visiting PGZ in poland.


Path-Finder said:


> which news?


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## django

Path-Finder said:


> that is raan number two! first one got a little old


This one is the bit on the side


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## Path-Finder

django said:


> This one is the bit on the side



Yara there has been an earthshaking shaking development! Hazrat is gone into stealth mode

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## khanasifm

How credible is this news and websites ??? Nothing from an official sources ??


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

khanasifm said:


> How credible is this news and websites ??? Nothing from an official sources ??


The news of the POF Chairman's meeting with FB Radom was released by PGZ, the association that represents FB, ZMT and others. See their link.

http://pgzsa.pl/a/657,przedstawiciele-pakistanskiego-przemyslu-obronnego-z-wizyta-w-pgz


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## khanasifm

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The news of the POF Chairman's meeting with FB Radom was released by PGZ, the association that represents FB, ZMT and others. See their link.
> 
> http://pgzsa.pl/a/657,przedstawiciele-pakistanskiego-przemyslu-obronnego-z-wizyta-w-pgz



Thanks

https://translate.googleusercontent...-w-pgz&usg=ALkJrhi_VnP2PcQcnH7H51Clmj-1Z14TYQ


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## khanasifm

It states it’s still an r&d project ??


http://fabrykabroni.pl/en/produkty/karabiny/msbs/


No body mention this rifle during trials ?? Did they?? 
??


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## Ahmet Pasha

Me and @Bilal Khan (Quwa) did.


khanasifm said:


> It states it’s still an r&d project ??
> 
> 
> http://fabrykabroni.pl/en/produkty/karabiny/msbs/
> 
> 
> No body mention this rifle during trials ?? Did they??
> ??



@Path-Finder Lo bai badshao ay thread fer garam hon lagi jey.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

khanasifm said:


> It states it’s still an r&d project ??
> 
> 
> http://fabrykabroni.pl/en/produkty/karabiny/msbs/
> 
> 
> No body mention this rifle during trials ?? Did they??
> ??


It's in its final qualification testing phase, Poland already ordered 53,000.

http://www.janes.com/article/73623/mspo-2017-poland-orders-grot-and-bor-rifles


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## khanasifm

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Me and @Bilal Khan (Quwa) did.
> 
> 
> @Path-Finder Lo bai badshao ay thread fer garam hon lagi jey.



Was it mentioned as being short listed ? Everyone was posting cz, scar and Italian rifles and three being shortlisted may be I missed the news 

Anyway is pof talking to cz, polish and Italians Oem to select best one or this is it ??


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## Ahmet Pasha

I think POF is still surveying around for the best package. One thing is sure that its not just about rifles anymore. Its about total overhaul of POF, its machinary and product catalogue.


khanasifm said:


> Was it mentioned as b nightshirt listed ? Everyone was posting cz, scar and Italian rifles and three being shortlisted may be I missed the news
> 
> Anyway is pof talking to cz, polish and Italians Oem to select best one or this is it ??


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## Gryphon

khanasifm said:


> Was it mentioned as being short listed ? Everyone was posting cz, scar and Italian rifles and three being shortlisted may be I missed the news
> 
> Anyway is pof talking to cz, polish and Italians Oem to select best one or this is it ??



Not trialed yet.











POF delegation visits (Pakistan Ordnance Factory) and government representatives in Islamabad at #PGZ S.A. The talks concerned, among others. the potential for industrial cooperation in the field of small arms and ammunition






















Visit of the POF (Pakistan Ordnance Factory) at the Arms Factory in Radom "Łucznik" - presentation of the offer of firearms #PGZ.





















https://twitter.com/PGZ_pl

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## khanasifm

Newer weapons weigh a good half kg less than g3 /ak and better ergonomics this one looks like has both left and hand and right hand cocking handle and ejection port plus modular and multi caliber

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## fatman17

delegation from the Pakistan defense industry visited Poland last week to discuss potential cooperation with the Polish small arms industry. The meeting)—the first of three meeting scheduled for this year— saw representatives from the Pakistan Ordnance Factories (POF) and Polish Armaments Group (PGZ), and the “main topic of talks” between Lt. Gen. Durrani and PGZ board member Maciej Lew-Mirski was the “potential of the purchase and transfer of technology related to the production of small arms and ammunition” for the purpose of supplanting the Pakistan Army’s G-3 and Type 56 assault rifles. Should the Pakistan Army proceed with a small arms modernization program, PGZ estimates that the Army could require “between 500 and 800,000 new automatic rifles, which should replace existing weapons”, a program that could be worth up to $2 billion.


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## Path-Finder

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/933454403645984769


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## Zarvan




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## Vergennes

fitpOsitive said:


> ?



Don't know what your question is,but this is an Italian soldier equipped with an ARX 160 probably guarding an important or strategic site as part of the operation 'strade sicure'. He's from the infantry according to his beret.

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## Hell hound

Vergennes said:


> Don't know what your question is,but this is an Italian soldier equipped with an ARX 160 probably guarding an important or strategic site as part of the operation 'strade sicure'. He's from the infantry according to his beret.


believe me if not for the uniform i would have assume him to be a Pakistani or at least of Pakistani descent

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## Ahmet Pasha

I want some of the stuff u r on 


fitpOsitive said:


> Zarvan posted a picture. My question was whether that rifle(Italian obviously) is selected? As we heard that this rifle is also in trials. His posts are important.

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## Vergennes

fitpOsitive said:


> Zarvan posted a picture. My question was whether that rifle(Italian obviously) is selected? As we heard that this rifle is also in trials. His posts are important.



Yee,but it is the ARX 200 that is in trial,not the ARX 160,the one pictured.


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## The Eagle

Thread cleaned from off-topic and non serious posts. Member thread banned for few days due to constant off-topic posting and useless tagging. Members are advised to avoid personal chit chat or making fun of any member(s). Differences aside, no one is allowed to mock anyone. Content should be the priority to discuss rather than a person or member.

Regards,

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## Amaa'n

Zarvan said:


> Producing all models of GLOCK in Pakistan will be dream come true but as POF has history of disappointing so I am not having any hopes from these visits and if any good news comes than it would be great
> 
> Just talked to Horus he says these trips most likely have nothing to do with Rifle trials. Rifles which were tested only those are being considered. POF head have habit of roaming around and also POF has nothing to do with which Rifle will be selected after selection they would be told to produce the selected one


 & @Horus 
You guys need to understand that PoF is a stakeholder in the Rifle Trails too....whatever rifle is selected it will be selected with the input from PoF, they have the experts, they have the metallurgists......Army's Arms branch is involved in the Rifle Trails, testing all the weapons, compiling the reports & at stage PoF is being consulted too......do we even have the technology to produce the high quality polymer required for SCAR? do we have the expertise & the experts who would understand the production process to the core ........these all needs to be addressed before Rifle is finalized

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## Bratva

balixd said:


> & @Horus
> You guys need to understand that PoF is a stakeholder in the Rifle Trails too....whatever rifle is selected it will be selected with the input from PoF, they have the experts, they have the metallurgists......Army's Arms branch is involved in the Rifle Trails, testing all the weapons, compiling the reports & at stage PoF is being consulted too......do we even have the technology to produce the high quality polymer required for SCAR? do we have the expertise & the experts who would understand the production process to the core ........these all needs to be addressed before Rifle is finalized



Good point . Perhaps a factor which is causing delay to select new guns ? Because as per POF it will take 5 years to upgrade the POF machinery

*While talking about present status of plants and machines and projected modernization plan, the committee was told that 58% of the machinery in use of POF is around 30 years old and it definitely affects the cost and time of production. The committee strongly recommended expediting work on the moving and approval of summary of 250 million US Dollars required over a span of five years for up gradation of the machinery.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/a-me...ld-at-senate-secretariat-where-matter.525633/*

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## Amaa'n

*53 Thousand Grot Rifles for the Polish Armed Forces. Contract Concluded*
More than 53 thousand 5.56 mm MSBS rifles are going to be received by the Polish Army until the year 2020, on the grounds of a contract signed during the MSPO 2017 defence salon in Kielce, on Tuesday. The firearm, which is going to be received both by the regular units of the Polish Armed Forces, as well as by the Territorial Defence component, has received a name: “Grot”.


The agreement has been signed by the commander of the Nil military unit, Col. Mirosław Krupa, and by members of the boards of the Polish Armaments Group – President Błażej Wojnicz and Szczepan Ruman, and of the “Łucznik” Radom firearms manufacturing facility – President Adam Suliga and Maciej Borecki. The ceremony which took place on the first day of the 15th edition of the MSPO Defence Industry Salon also involved the head of the Polish Ministry of Defence, Antoni Macierewicz.

The contract value has been defined as almost half billion zlotys, which, as the PGZ representatives stress, means that this is one of the most significant firearms procurement contracts after the year 1989. _The contract concerns the procurement and deliveries of the “Grot” C 16 FB-M1 weapon which is a member of the MSBS rifle family_ - as the release issued by the Polish Armaments Group reads.

Until the year 2020, the Polish Armed Forces are to receive more than 53 thousand Grot rifles. Out of the quantity above, the first 1000 examples are to become the armament of the Territorial Defence units. The aforesaid branch of the Armed Forces, together with the Special Forces and the Military Police, has been testing the MSBS firearms for three months this year.

The head of the Polish Ministry of Defence, Antoni Macierewicz, stressed the fact that conclusion of the agreement has been reached at a rapid pace. _- This indeed is an extraordinary event, not only because we were just witnessing an event of conclusion of a contract of enormous value, exceeding 500 million zlotys, not only because as a result of the above more than 53 thousand state of the art, *the most modern in existence, rifles would be handed out to the Special Forces, operational units and to the Territorial Defence component, and not only because the first 1000 rifles would be delivered this year, until December, but, above all, because we were able to do all of the above in an unbelievably short period of time*_* – as Macierewicz stated.*

The Minister was stressing the fact that Grot is a world class achievement and that it has gone through “*all of the tests, both in the Special Operations component, as well as in the Territorial Defence branch, exceeding the expectations.*” – _Its reliability cannot be compared to any other weapon_ - as it was stated by Macierewicz. Antoni Macierewicz emphasized the fact that the contract was being created until 6AM in the morning on Tuesday................................................................

http://www.defence24.com/657859,53-...or-the-polish-armed-forces-contract-concluded



*
*



Bratva said:


> Good point . Perhaps a factor which is causing delay to select new guns ? Because as per POF it will take 5 years to upgrade the POF machinery
> 
> *While talking about present status of plants and machines and projected modernization plan, the committee was told that 58% of the machinery in use of POF is around 30 years old and it definitely affects the cost and time of production. The committee strongly recommended expediting work on the moving and approval of summary of 250 million US Dollars required over a span of five years for up gradation of the machinery.
> 
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/a-me...ld-at-senate-secretariat-where-matter.525633/*


Makes sense......

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## Zarvan

balixd said:


> & @Horus
> You guys need to understand that PoF is a stakeholder in the Rifle Trails too....whatever rifle is selected it will be selected with the input from PoF, they have the experts, they have the metallurgists......Army's Arms branch is involved in the Rifle Trails, testing all the weapons, compiling the reports & at stage PoF is being consulted too......do we even have the technology to produce the high quality polymer required for SCAR? do we have the expertise & the experts who would understand the production process to the core ........these all needs to be addressed before Rifle is finalized


Till now other than senior Military Officers who are head of POF, I can tell you POF guys have hardly any clue what is going on with Rifle trials. But interesting thing is now Air Chief visited same company which was recently visited by POF head and others


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Zarvan said:


> Till now other than senior Military Officers who are head of POF, I can tell you POF guys have hardly any clue what is going on with Rifle trials. But interesting thing is now Air Chief visited same company which was recently visited by POF head and others


The PAF CAS visited PGZ, which is the Polish government body that represents many Polish defence companies, including aviation companies.

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## Zarvan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The PAF CAS visited PGZ, which is the Polish government body that represents many Polish defence companies, including aviation companies.


O sorry for the mistake but why all of a sudden every one is going to Poland ???


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Zarvan said:


> O sorry for the mistake but why all of a sudden every one is going to Poland ???


Because Poland is one of those countries with lots of work and experts in developing defence technologies. For example, Poland has done work in AESA radar technology, composites, avionics, etc. They have expertise and are willing to engage with Pakistan.

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## Amaa'n

Zarvan said:


> Till now other than senior Military Officers who are head of POF, I can tell you POF guys have hardly any clue what is going on with Rifle trials. But interesting thing is now Air Chief visited same company which was recently visited by POF head and others


and you know the reason for that? the middle management staff is mostly civilians hence the exchange of information that happens in Military horizontally is absent, there is a flow of information horizontally in the armed forces and there is vertically.....since PoF middle management is cut off from the chain, they will only know what they are informed about.......
what surprised me more is PoF exploring the options of Rifle by themselves, perhaps they want to offer something different to the Military too? same as the case with Azb bolt & DMR

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## Zarvan

balixd said:


> and you know the reason for that? the middle management staff is mostly civilians hence the exchange of information that happens in Military horizontally is absent, there is a flow of information horizontally in the armed forces and there is vertically.....since PoF middle management is cut off from the chain, they will only know what they are informed about.......
> what surprised me more is PoF exploring the options of Rifle by themselves, perhaps they want to offer something different to the Military too? same as the case with Azb bolt & DMR


I have a opinion which I would repeat here that is if we are getting TOT and permission to export that POF should produce at least more than one rifle series. We can make lot of money by doing that. It would take lot of investment but we can earn money for next several decades by doing this


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

balixd said:


> and you know the reason for that? the middle management staff is mostly civilians hence the exchange of information that happens in Military horizontally is absent, there is a flow of information horizontally in the armed forces and there is vertically.....since PoF middle management is cut off from the chain, they will only know what they are informed about.......
> what surprised me more is PoF exploring the options of Rifle by themselves, perhaps they want to offer something different to the Military too? same as the case with Azb bolt & DMR


If the POF Chairman is involving himself in the rifles, then what the POF middle management know or don't know is a moot point. If the POF leadership knows, then POF as a stakeholder knows.

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## Amaa'n

Zarvan said:


> I have a opinion which I would repeat here that is if we are getting TOT and permission to export that POF should produce at least more than one rifle series. We can make lot of money by doing that. It would take lot of investment but we can earn money for next several decades by doing this


and you think SCAR would let you do that??? i really really doubt that man


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## AMG_12

The recent visit to Poland was to include one of the Polish rifles for the ongoing trials. Source - One of the members of Delegation.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Game.Invade said:


> The recent visit to Poland was to include one of the Polish rifles for the ongoing trials. Source - One of the members of Delegation.


Any idea if it is the new one (Grot) or AK-47 cousin Beryl M762?


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## AMG_12

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Any idea if it is the new one (Grot) or AK-47 cousin Beryl M762?


I'll inquire tonight. The guy is unreachable most of the time.


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## Zarvan

balixd said:


> and you think SCAR would let you do that??? i really really doubt that man


Yes they are offering both TOT and permission to export


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## Amaa'n

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Any idea if it is the new one (Grot) or AK-47 cousin Beryl M762?


@Game.Invade 
has to be Grot because Poland itself is replacing Beryl......and as shown in the photos, the brochure is of Grot


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

balixd said:


> @Game.Invade
> has to be Grot because Poland itself is replacing Beryl......and as shown in the photos, the brochure is of Grot


If FB is phasing out the Beryl, then it might be easy for POF to pick-up exclusive production and marketing rights for it. It's a possibility, if even an unlikely one.


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## Amaa'n

@Bilal Khan (Quwa)


balixd said:


> *53 Thousand Grot Rifles for the Polish Armed Forces. Contract Concluded*
> More than 53 thousand 5.56 mm MSBS rifles are going to be received by the Polish Army until the year 2020, on the grounds of a contract signed during the MSPO 2017 defence salon in Kielce, on Tuesday. The firearm, which is going to be received both by the regular units of the Polish Armed Forces, as well as by the Territorial Defence component, has received a name: “Grot”.
> 
> 
> The agreement has been signed by the commander of the Nil military unit, Col. Mirosław Krupa, and by members of the boards of the Polish Armaments Group – President Błażej Wojnicz and Szczepan Ruman, and of the “Łucznik” Radom firearms manufacturing facility – President Adam Suliga and Maciej Borecki. The ceremony which took place on the first day of the 15th edition of the MSPO Defence Industry Salon also involved the head of the Polish Ministry of Defence, Antoni Macierewicz.
> 
> The contract value has been defined as almost half billion zlotys, which, as the PGZ representatives stress, means that this is one of the most significant firearms procurement contracts after the year 1989. _The contract concerns the procurement and deliveries of the “Grot” C 16 FB-M1 weapon which is a member of the MSBS rifle family_ - as the release issued by the Polish Armaments Group reads.
> 
> Until the year 2020, the Polish Armed Forces are to receive more than 53 thousand Grot rifles. Out of the quantity above, the first 1000 examples are to become the armament of the Territorial Defence units. The aforesaid branch of the Armed Forces, together with the Special Forces and the Military Police, has been testing the MSBS firearms for three months this year.
> 
> The head of the Polish Ministry of Defence, Antoni Macierewicz, stressed the fact that conclusion of the agreement has been reached at a rapid pace. _- This indeed is an extraordinary event, not only because we were just witnessing an event of conclusion of a contract of enormous value, exceeding 500 million zlotys, not only because as a result of the above more than 53 thousand state of the art, *the most modern in existence, rifles would be handed out to the Special Forces, operational units and to the Territorial Defence component, and not only because the first 1000 rifles would be delivered this year, until December, but, above all, because we were able to do all of the above in an unbelievably short period of time*_* – as Macierewicz stated.*
> 
> The Minister was stressing the fact that Grot is a world class achievement and that it has gone through “*all of the tests, both in the Special Operations component, as well as in the Territorial Defence branch, exceeding the expectations.*” – _Its reliability cannot be compared to any other weapon_ - as it was stated by Macierewicz. Antoni Macierewicz emphasized the fact that the contract was being created until 6AM in the morning on Tuesday................................................................
> 
> http://www.defence24.com/657859,53-...or-the-polish-armed-forces-contract-concluded
> 
> 
> 
> *
> *
> 
> 
> Makes sense......


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

balixd said:


> @Bilal Khan (Quwa)


Yep, read it. The Grot is a promising design.


----------



## Amaa'n

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Yep, read it. The Grot is a promising design.


what i found from un official sources on France weapon trails is that MSBS failed to get the contract based on political reasons as well as technical...although there was nothing wrong with the weapon......... it was the product that was being offered


----------



## Vergennes

balixd said:


> what i found from un official sources on France weapon trails is that MSBS failed to get the contract based on political reasons as well as technical...although there was nothing wrong with the weapon......... it was the product that was being offered



The only rifles that took part in the trial to replace the Famas were the Scar-L,the HK-416A5,the ARX-160,the VHS-2 and the SIG MCX...


----------



## Amaa'n

Vergennes said:


> The only rifles that took part in the trial to replace the Famas were the Scar-L,the HK-416A5,the ARX-160,the VHS-2 and the SIG MCX...


i read at The Firearm Blog that MSBS was also part of the trail.........?


----------



## Vergennes

balixd said:


> i read at The Firearm Blog that MSBS was also part of the trail.........?



Honestly,I have never heard about it. The only rifles that took part in the trials were the one I listed above. It would have been known if the MSBS was among them.


----------



## Zarvan

If Pakistan is inviting more Rifles than this Serbian Rifle in 7.62 X 39 tender should be invited also


----------



## Thorough Pro

If we can export a TOT produced rifle, then what stops the OEM from exporting the same at a lower cost?
The ones who do export are obviously a few and famous and more expensive for Pakistan to acquire TOT or export permission. That is why Pakistan is exploring the "fringe" markets to get a good deal for in-house production for own forces. Even if POF acquired the best there is out there, they would fail miserably in exporting it in numbers. 



Zarvan said:


> I have a opinion which I would repeat here that is if we are getting TOT and permission to export that POF should produce at least more than one rifle series. We can make lot of money by doing that. It would take lot of investment but we can earn money for next several decades by doing this


----------



## Ahmet Pasha

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) what do you think is the relevance of MSBS bullpup? Could it replace mp5n for cqb?


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Ahmet Pasha said:


> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) what do you think is the relevance of MSBS bullpup? Could it replace mp5n for cqb?


Probably just looking through the catalogue. But the good thing about the MA Stuff is that it is one platform, so the bullpup and different calibers are just slight modifications of one another. If POF is asked to give a 5.56mm bullpup, it can do it.


----------



## Zarvan

Thorough Pro said:


> If we can export a TOT produced rifle, then what stops the OEM from exporting the same at a lower cost?
> The ones who do export are obviously a few and famous and more expensive for Pakistan to acquire TOT or export permission. That is why Pakistan is exploring the "fringe" markets to get a good deal for in-house production for own forces. Even if POF acquired the best there is out there, they would fail miserably in exporting it in numbers.


From production and labor cost to several other factors and also politics. OEM won't sell weapons to many African countries due to various reasons but we have no such issues



Thorough Pro said:


> If we can export a TOT produced rifle, then what stops the OEM from exporting the same at a lower cost?
> The ones who do export are obviously a few and famous and more expensive for Pakistan to acquire TOT or export permission. That is why Pakistan is exploring the "fringe" markets to get a good deal for in-house production for own forces. Even if POF acquired the best there is out there, they would fail miserably in exporting it in numbers.


We are already exporting weapons to 40 countries I can assure you we can gain much bigger market with weapon like SCAR

Sources are saying Rifle trials have been put on hold first POF will be upgraded than Rifle trials will resume

*MSBS Grot Rifle. A New Generation of Polish Weapons [Analysis]








Signing of an agreement concerning the deliveries of the MSBS “Grot” rifles, during the MSPO 2017 exhibition, is a major step made towards introduction of this domestically designed modern weapon into use.* *It is to replace the Beryl assault rifles. Beryl (beryllium) is actually a modification of Kalashnikov system rifles that have been manufactured in Poland for more than 60 years now.* *The contract to acquire the Grot rifles has been discussed by the commander of the Territorial Defence component of the Polish Armed Forces, Brig. general Wiesław Kukuła and Adam Sulliga, President of the Radom-based FB Radom firearms factory. *

Conclusion of the agreement concerning the delivery of more than 53 thousand examples of the Grot C 16 FB-M1 rifles belonging to the MSBS-556 family, that took place during the 25th edition of the Kielce MSPO event, has been announced to be the most important contract signed during the exhibition. The agreement, valued at 500 million zlotys, has been signed between the Polish JWK NIL military unit and the Radom-based Fabryka Broni.

The opinionmakers were doubtful with regards to the circumstances in which the contract was signed, including the media reports suggesting that the state test programme has not been finalized. Thus it is worth to clarify the circumstances and goals of signing the agreement, as well as the procedure adopted to conclude it. 

- “At the stage when the procurement was being designed, it was a dogma for us to assume that there would be a need to continuously perfect the weapon, similarly as it is done by Armed Forces of other countries. Thus, the rifle name is going to feature an “M” suffix. In this way, the first batch of the weapons procured is to bear the designation of GROT 16C FB-M1, but at the moment we have assumed that within the framework of the agreement implemented it would be possible to modify the weapon even up to the M3 standard. What information is included in the designation? 16 refers to the barrel length, in inches, C refers to classic (conventional) rifle layout, while M and the number refer to the modification designation. Today we also expect that a situation would emerge in which a need may arise to upgrade the rifle from M1, up to M3 standard, for example. We are creating a system, within which conditions that are inspiring the manufacturer to continuously perfect the weapon, in line with the requests submitted by the soldier” - as we were told by General Wiesław Kukuła, Commander of the Territorial Defence component of the Polish Armed Forces.

Not only was the operational experience-based modernization of the weapon planned, as it is also expected that the old models are modernized to match the latest standard. This is quite frequent procedure, already utilized in Poland e.g. in case of the wz. 96 Beryl weaponry that, during the overhauls, was modernized e.g. through addition of the Picatinny rails. In case of the Western designs, such as the modular FN SCAR rifle, or Minimi LMG, the weapons also feature more and more modifications implemented as a result of findings concerning the potential problems emerging during the operational use.

Sometimes, such conclusions lead towards significant design changes, which has been proven e.g. by the Czech BREN rifle. CZ805 that was not very successful, that was bulky and its design was not very good ergonomically, and that was very heavy (4 kilograms) was successfully upgraded to the CZ806 standard which, at the moment, has become one of the demanded Czech export products acquired by a French special forces unit, with India and Pakistan considering acquisition of manufacturing licenses to produce hundreds of thousands examples locally.

Also, the legendary M16 rifle, in its original variant, has turned out to be unreliable and demanding when it came to maintenance, which led towards creation of further modifications.

Grot begins its career as a weapon that is much more mature, already modified with regards to its form. Nonetheless it should be expected that intensive operational use of 1000, and more large batches of the weapon, would expose a need to optimize its design. Within that scope, a need would emerge to make an agreement between the manufacturer and the user. The agreement is a long-term document, thus there would be enough time to work on the relevant changes. The manufacturer - Radom-based Fabryka Broni company - assures that jointly with the Territorial Defence component it is going to analyze the remarks and actively cooperate in introduction of those.

*What was signed by Fabryka Broni [Łucznik Radom facility] and is the factory going to be able to face the challenge?*

When it comes to the agreement signed on 5th September, numerous doubts emerge. One of those doubts refers to the value and profile of the contract. It is a 4-years long contract, within which, in 2017, delivery of the first thousand out of 53 thousand contracted Grot rifles has been planned. During the upcoming years the deliveries will be much more intense, which evokes doubts among the experts, with regards to the production capacity. Especially in a situation in which, starting from August this year, the Fabryka Broni facility announced that it plans to invest 90 million zlotys in a modern manufacturing line, where an amount of 81 million is a part of a loan provided by BGK.

*READ MORE: *FB Radom Facility: Loan-Financing of Modernization

As Adam Suliga, President of the Management Board at the FB Radom facility, assures - _By signing the agreement and planning the quantities, we took the manufacturing capacity into consideration, along with the fact that machinery is going to be replaced -._In August this year the facility has finalized the manufacturing of the wz. 96C Beryl rifles that had been contracted earlier for the current year. Now, the free capacity may also be used to manufacture the Grot rifle. In parallel, procurement and set up of modern CNC machining equipment is being carried out which allow for more intensive manufacturing process to take place. 


Referring to manufacturing speed and cost, price issue shall also be mentioned. Not only in case of this contract, but quite often, an intention to divide the value simply by the number of examples emerges. In this specific case this is especially difficult, as the exact number of the rifles has not been published, same applies to the exact amount defining the contract - generally referred to as half billion zlotys. As Suliga stresses, the value applies both to 53 thousand rifles, as well as to creation of infrastructure related to training and support for operational use of a new weapon in the Army - the Grot rifle.


The training system, with the e-learning package, has been an element emphasized by the command of the WOT [Territorial Defence] component of the Army. The option of providing digital education with regards to weapon’s design or safety of operation saves time in a short training cycle remaining at disposal of the WOT soldiers.

Not only does the kit that comes with the Grot rifle differ in the e-learning tutorial, it also includes many more extra magazines which increases the cost but is related to the specific nature of operations. The cost concerning the procurement of extra magazines is lower with the weapon, in comparison with a potential separate delivery. 


The rifle will be bought in a specific variant, e.g. along with 8 magazines. This is embedded within our conclusions and postulates related to the component profile and to the requirements of the modern battlefield [...] With a great degree of satisfaction I can notice how far the perceiving of the Polish defence industry has changed, as it understands the soldiers’ requirements better and better, as not only was equipment tailored to the new rifle, but also accommodating more magazines presented in Kielce, during the MSPO Salon. Here, the Dromader kit, as well as other offers, may be seen as a good example.

*Tests and Agreements.* *What shall come first?*

The MoD’s release concerning the concluded contract includes information suggesting that the qualification tests programme has not yet been finalized. The media suggest that the said programme would end in the first quarter of 2018. The deliveries of this year’s batch of 1000 examples of the Grot weaponry have been meanwhile planned to happen in November and December. 

The weapon that is going to be included in the inventory kit of the military shall pass the qualification test programme. How one can make agreement in this context, seemingly full of conflict? The aforesaid deadline for finalization of the tests has been derived from the schedule related to the Tytan programme, according to which the rifles were to be received by the Army after 2021. This year MSBS has been excluded from the programme, and the system has a new administrator - the WOT component. Thus the test programme has undergone modifications, it is to be finalized in October 2017, a month before the deliveries begin. 

Not only does the commission overseeing the test programme include the representatives of the Territorial Defence forces, but also other branches of the military, the Armament Inspectorate of the Polish Ministry of Defence, Support Inspectorate of the Polish Armed Forces and other institutions are also deeply involved in the process. According to the information we have obtained, at the moment the weapon’s wear tests are being conducted. For obvious reasons, this stage remains highly time-consuming. At the earlier stages of the test programme MSBS had been passing such tests positively, several times. 

The weapon, for at least a decade one, has been passing a variety of tests with positive results, thus General Kukuła was recommending that the contract shall be signed during the 25th edition of the MSPO defence expo in Poland. 

Some doubts have also emerged with regards to the conclusion of the contract with the Fabryka Broni, not by the Armament Inspectorate, but by the Nil unit of the Polish Army which, even though it frequently deals with procurement, this procurement is usually carried out for the Special Operations Forces. The unit in question, nonetheless, also manages acquisitions for other branches of the military.

Nil unit has been acting as an intermediary party, e.g. in case of procurement of the Antos mortars for the air-mobile units of the Polish Armed Forces. In case of acquisition of the Grot rifles, the WOT component has been using the assistance provided by the Nil unit, as neither WOT has a proper organ embedded within its structure to deal with such procedure, nor is it experienced in such negotiation processes. On the basis of Decision No. 92/MON issued by the Minister of Defence, on 28th April 2017, with regards to the procurement of the WOT equipment, the commander may be a direct administrator, without any support provided by the intermediary activities performed by the Armament Inspectorate.

Cooperation between the Territorial Defence forces and the Special Operations component also cannot be disregarded. JW Nil needed more than a month to prepare a contract and negotiate the conditions with the Radom-based facility. The unofficial information obtained by us suggest that this is not the last of the agreements that is going to be implemented with assistance provided by the aforesaid unit. The logistics support organ in the WOT component is being established now. 

*Conclusions Gathered During the MSBS Rifles Test Programme*

Some confusion in communications could also have been introduced by the information on the introductory operational tests carried out by a variety of branches of the Polish military, including WOT and Special Operations components. It shall be noted that these procedures shall be viewed separately from the qualification test programmes, as their results are not binding, while the whole process is based upon agreements concluded with the manufacturer. The goal would be to verify the experience of the soldiers, gathered in intense, operational conditions.

The aforesaid 92/MON decision issued by the Defence Minister on 28th April 2017, concerning the acquisition of military equipment for the Territorial Defence units, allows the commander to test the armament - this possibility has been used in case of the MSBS rifle system. The weapon is being tested by other military units too, however it is a specific nature of WOT that it includes soldiers without prior training, which allows for verification of differences between the units (effectiveness) using the wz. 96 Beryl rifles and the MSBS Grot weapon. 

Such result shall not be surprising, as 50 years is the period that divides the weapons design-wise. It shall be recalled that wz. 96 Beryl is a modified Kalashnikov model, and this system of weaponry has been manufactured at the Radom facility since 1950s.

The general layout of the rifle, ergonomics and the principle of operation have remained largely unchanged. The changes concerned, primarily, application of standard 5.56 ammunition (even though the rifle is derived from the wz. 88 Tantal weapon, shooting a similar 5.45 mm round) and featuring elements such as mounting rails or stock. 






Soldiers trained with the MSBS system attain results that are 20% better, in comparison to those trained with the Beryl rifle. Image Credit: WOT [Territorial Defence Forces]



Meanwhile, MSBS Grot system is a modern weapon developed from scratch during the recent decade, based upon designs such as the modular Lantan rifle. The solutions implemented in MSBS design are legally protected by six patents, six Community industrial designs and one industrial design. 

The test programme did not expose any significant defects, they have rather exemplified the habits of the users. For the soldiers who have been using the Beryl rifle the sight has been new - with a hole in the rear sight, applied instead of a conventional rear sight.

The Special Forces, frequently utilizing the HK416 system, complain about the hard trigger, as the commando weaponry usually features lighter sporting-like trigger mechanisms. Another concern is the 45-degree angle step of the fire selector (commando weaponry has a step of 90 degrees which causes the users to switch the weapon to full-auto mode, instead of single shot mode). One of the elements criticized by most of the users is the stock, which requires further work. 

_We are trying hard to inspire the Polish manufacturers to create a kind of ecosystem around the GROT rifle, with extra equipment packages for this weapon – _as we were told by General Wiesław Kukuła, stressing the fact that the rifle should be fitted with a wide assortment of domestically manufactured equipment. Thus, during this year’s edition of the MSPO event, Szafir sight has been awarded by the WOT Commander. It is to be the primary sight type for this component.

MSBS may also be used with components other than the ones manufactured domestically. It is the first Polish carbine fully compliant with the NATO standards. Not only does it feature Picatinny rails that may be freely reconfigured, it may also be fed from standard STANAG magazines, such as the ones coming from the German HK416, British SA80 or Czech Bren 2 or the US M4 weapons. During the tests in the Territorial Defence component, the weapon was verified with several magazines delivered by a variety of manufacturers.

The tests have shown that Grot is less susceptible to jamming when using low quality ammo or when shooting from a dirty barrel in intense battle, or when it is insufficiently maintained, also when compared to the weapons used by the Special Forces now.

*Who is to receive the Grot rifles?*

The question as to who is going to receive the 53 thousand Grot rifles is quite tough. Contrary to what it may seem, the number is not tied to the 50 thousand of WOT soldiers. This is directly derived from a structure of a light infantry squad which is the basic organizational unit in this formation. According to the composition disclosed back in 2016, 1/4 of the squad is not going to use the MSBS-556 variant (two sharpshooters using the .308 Win rifles and one LMG operator). 

Grot rifles are, hence, going to be received also by the operational units of the Armed Forces. At the moment no official data as to what units would receive the rifles exists. Due to the fact that the rifles are fully compliant with the STANAG norms, MSBS Grot would be a natural choice for the soldiers deployed abroad and for those who cooperate with the NATO units in Poland. The same arguments apply to possible introduction of the rifle to the units operating together with the WOT component, for the sake of unification. 

Ultimately, it is planned that 5.56 mm calibre is employed in the military, with the 7.62x39 mm round weaponry being decommissioned. This type of weapons is to be replaced by Beryls, to be replaced, in the frontline units, by the Grot rifles. Such solution would allow for a fluid transition to a unified standard, with proper reserves and affordable cost levels maintained. 














http://www.defence24.com/664005,msbs-grot-rifle-a-new-generation-of-polish-weapons-analysis


----------



## Gryphon

Ahmet Pasha said:


> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) what do you think is the relevance of MSBS bullpup? Could it replace mp5n for cqb?



Type 56 has already replaced MP5 in CQB. You don't necessarily require those bullpup's for CQB, just take a 7.62x39mm with a shorter barrel.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## MastanKhan

Zarvan said:


> From production and labor cost to several other factors and also politics. OEM won't sell weapons to many African countries due to various reasons but we have no such issues
> 
> 
> We are already exporting weapons to 40 countries I can assure you we can gain much bigger market with weapon like SCAR
> 
> Sources are saying Rifle trials have been put on hold first POF will be upgraded than Rifle trials will resume
> 
> *MSBS Grot Rifle. A New Generation of Polish Weapons [Analysis]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Signing of an agreement concerning the deliveries of the MSBS “Grot” rifles, during the MSPO 2017 exhibition, is a major step made towards introduction of this domestically designed modern weapon into use.* *It is to replace the Beryl assault rifles. Beryl (beryllium) is actually a modification of Kalashnikov system rifles that have been manufactured in Poland for more than 60 years now.* *The contract to acquire the Grot rifles has been discussed by the commander of the Territorial Defence component of the Polish Armed Forces, Brig. general Wiesław Kukuła and Adam Sulliga, President of the Radom-based FB Radom firearms factory. *
> 
> Conclusion of the agreement concerning the delivery of more than 53 thousand examples of the Grot C 16 FB-M1 rifles belonging to the MSBS-556 family, that took place during the 25th edition of the Kielce MSPO event, has been announced to be the most important contract signed during the exhibition. The agreement, valued at 500 million zlotys, has been signed between the Polish JWK NIL military unit and the Radom-based Fabryka Broni.
> 
> The opinionmakers were doubtful with regards to the circumstances in which the contract was signed, including the media reports suggesting that the state test programme has not been finalized. Thus it is worth to clarify the circumstances and goals of signing the agreement, as well as the procedure adopted to conclude it.
> 
> - “At the stage when the procurement was being designed, it was a dogma for us to assume that there would be a need to continuously perfect the weapon, similarly as it is done by Armed Forces of other countries. Thus, the rifle name is going to feature an “M” suffix. In this way, the first batch of the weapons procured is to bear the designation of GROT 16C FB-M1, but at the moment we have assumed that within the framework of the agreement implemented it would be possible to modify the weapon even up to the M3 standard. What information is included in the designation? 16 refers to the barrel length, in inches, C refers to classic (conventional) rifle layout, while M and the number refer to the modification designation. Today we also expect that a situation would emerge in which a need may arise to upgrade the rifle from M1, up to M3 standard, for example. We are creating a system, within which conditions that are inspiring the manufacturer to continuously perfect the weapon, in line with the requests submitted by the soldier” - as we were told by General Wiesław Kukuła, Commander of the Territorial Defence component of the Polish Armed Forces.
> 
> Not only was the operational experience-based modernization of the weapon planned, as it is also expected that the old models are modernized to match the latest standard. This is quite frequent procedure, already utilized in Poland e.g. in case of the wz. 96 Beryl weaponry that, during the overhauls, was modernized e.g. through addition of the Picatinny rails. In case of the Western designs, such as the modular FN SCAR rifle, or Minimi LMG, the weapons also feature more and more modifications implemented as a result of findings concerning the potential problems emerging during the operational use.
> 
> Sometimes, such conclusions lead towards significant design changes, which has been proven e.g. by the Czech BREN rifle. CZ805 that was not very successful, that was bulky and its design was not very good ergonomically, and that was very heavy (4 kilograms) was successfully upgraded to the CZ806 standard which, at the moment, has become one of the demanded Czech export products acquired by a French special forces unit, with India and Pakistan considering acquisition of manufacturing licenses to produce hundreds of thousands examples locally.
> 
> Also, the legendary M16 rifle, in its original variant, has turned out to be unreliable and demanding when it came to maintenance, which led towards creation of further modifications.
> 
> Grot begins its career as a weapon that is much more mature, already modified with regards to its form. Nonetheless it should be expected that intensive operational use of 1000, and more large batches of the weapon, would expose a need to optimize its design. Within that scope, a need would emerge to make an agreement between the manufacturer and the user. The agreement is a long-term document, thus there would be enough time to work on the relevant changes. The manufacturer - Radom-based Fabryka Broni company - assures that jointly with the Territorial Defence component it is going to analyze the remarks and actively cooperate in introduction of those.
> 
> *What was signed by Fabryka Broni [Łucznik Radom facility] and is the factory going to be able to face the challenge?*
> 
> When it comes to the agreement signed on 5th September, numerous doubts emerge. One of those doubts refers to the value and profile of the contract. It is a 4-years long contract, within which, in 2017, delivery of the first thousand out of 53 thousand contracted Grot rifles has been planned. During the upcoming years the deliveries will be much more intense, which evokes doubts among the experts, with regards to the production capacity. Especially in a situation in which, starting from August this year, the Fabryka Broni facility announced that it plans to invest 90 million zlotys in a modern manufacturing line, where an amount of 81 million is a part of a loan provided by BGK.
> 
> *READ MORE: *FB Radom Facility: Loan-Financing of Modernization
> 
> As Adam Suliga, President of the Management Board at the FB Radom facility, assures - _By signing the agreement and planning the quantities, we took the manufacturing capacity into consideration, along with the fact that machinery is going to be replaced -._In August this year the facility has finalized the manufacturing of the wz. 96C Beryl rifles that had been contracted earlier for the current year. Now, the free capacity may also be used to manufacture the Grot rifle. In parallel, procurement and set up of modern CNC machining equipment is being carried out which allow for more intensive manufacturing process to take place.
> 
> 
> Referring to manufacturing speed and cost, price issue shall also be mentioned. Not only in case of this contract, but quite often, an intention to divide the value simply by the number of examples emerges. In this specific case this is especially difficult, as the exact number of the rifles has not been published, same applies to the exact amount defining the contract - generally referred to as half billion zlotys. As Suliga stresses, the value applies both to 53 thousand rifles, as well as to creation of infrastructure related to training and support for operational use of a new weapon in the Army - the Grot rifle.
> 
> 
> The training system, with the e-learning package, has been an element emphasized by the command of the WOT [Territorial Defence] component of the Army. The option of providing digital education with regards to weapon’s design or safety of operation saves time in a short training cycle remaining at disposal of the WOT soldiers.
> 
> Not only does the kit that comes with the Grot rifle differ in the e-learning tutorial, it also includes many more extra magazines which increases the cost but is related to the specific nature of operations. The cost concerning the procurement of extra magazines is lower with the weapon, in comparison with a potential separate delivery.
> 
> 
> The rifle will be bought in a specific variant, e.g. along with 8 magazines. This is embedded within our conclusions and postulates related to the component profile and to the requirements of the modern battlefield [...] With a great degree of satisfaction I can notice how far the perceiving of the Polish defence industry has changed, as it understands the soldiers’ requirements better and better, as not only was equipment tailored to the new rifle, but also accommodating more magazines presented in Kielce, during the MSPO Salon. Here, the Dromader kit, as well as other offers, may be seen as a good example.
> 
> *Tests and Agreements.* *What shall come first?*
> 
> The MoD’s release concerning the concluded contract includes information suggesting that the qualification tests programme has not yet been finalized. The media suggest that the said programme would end in the first quarter of 2018. The deliveries of this year’s batch of 1000 examples of the Grot weaponry have been meanwhile planned to happen in November and December.
> 
> The weapon that is going to be included in the inventory kit of the military shall pass the qualification test programme. How one can make agreement in this context, seemingly full of conflict? The aforesaid deadline for finalization of the tests has been derived from the schedule related to the Tytan programme, according to which the rifles were to be received by the Army after 2021. This year MSBS has been excluded from the programme, and the system has a new administrator - the WOT component. Thus the test programme has undergone modifications, it is to be finalized in October 2017, a month before the deliveries begin.
> 
> Not only does the commission overseeing the test programme include the representatives of the Territorial Defence forces, but also other branches of the military, the Armament Inspectorate of the Polish Ministry of Defence, Support Inspectorate of the Polish Armed Forces and other institutions are also deeply involved in the process. According to the information we have obtained, at the moment the weapon’s wear tests are being conducted. For obvious reasons, this stage remains highly time-consuming. At the earlier stages of the test programme MSBS had been passing such tests positively, several times.
> 
> The weapon, for at least a decade one, has been passing a variety of tests with positive results, thus General Kukuła was recommending that the contract shall be signed during the 25th edition of the MSPO defence expo in Poland.
> 
> Some doubts have also emerged with regards to the conclusion of the contract with the Fabryka Broni, not by the Armament Inspectorate, but by the Nil unit of the Polish Army which, even though it frequently deals with procurement, this procurement is usually carried out for the Special Operations Forces. The unit in question, nonetheless, also manages acquisitions for other branches of the military.
> 
> Nil unit has been acting as an intermediary party, e.g. in case of procurement of the Antos mortars for the air-mobile units of the Polish Armed Forces. In case of acquisition of the Grot rifles, the WOT component has been using the assistance provided by the Nil unit, as neither WOT has a proper organ embedded within its structure to deal with such procedure, nor is it experienced in such negotiation processes. On the basis of Decision No. 92/MON issued by the Minister of Defence, on 28th April 2017, with regards to the procurement of the WOT equipment, the commander may be a direct administrator, without any support provided by the intermediary activities performed by the Armament Inspectorate.
> 
> Cooperation between the Territorial Defence forces and the Special Operations component also cannot be disregarded. JW Nil needed more than a month to prepare a contract and negotiate the conditions with the Radom-based facility. The unofficial information obtained by us suggest that this is not the last of the agreements that is going to be implemented with assistance provided by the aforesaid unit. The logistics support organ in the WOT component is being established now.
> 
> *Conclusions Gathered During the MSBS Rifles Test Programme*
> 
> Some confusion in communications could also have been introduced by the information on the introductory operational tests carried out by a variety of branches of the Polish military, including WOT and Special Operations components. It shall be noted that these procedures shall be viewed separately from the qualification test programmes, as their results are not binding, while the whole process is based upon agreements concluded with the manufacturer. The goal would be to verify the experience of the soldiers, gathered in intense, operational conditions.
> 
> The aforesaid 92/MON decision issued by the Defence Minister on 28th April 2017, concerning the acquisition of military equipment for the Territorial Defence units, allows the commander to test the armament - this possibility has been used in case of the MSBS rifle system. The weapon is being tested by other military units too, however it is a specific nature of WOT that it includes soldiers without prior training, which allows for verification of differences between the units (effectiveness) using the wz. 96 Beryl rifles and the MSBS Grot weapon.
> 
> Such result shall not be surprising, as 50 years is the period that divides the weapons design-wise. It shall be recalled that wz. 96 Beryl is a modified Kalashnikov model, and this system of weaponry has been manufactured at the Radom facility since 1950s.
> 
> The general layout of the rifle, ergonomics and the principle of operation have remained largely unchanged. The changes concerned, primarily, application of standard 5.56 ammunition (even though the rifle is derived from the wz. 88 Tantal weapon, shooting a similar 5.45 mm round) and featuring elements such as mounting rails or stock.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Soldiers trained with the MSBS system attain results that are 20% better, in comparison to those trained with the Beryl rifle. Image Credit: WOT [Territorial Defence Forces]
> 
> 
> 
> Meanwhile, MSBS Grot system is a modern weapon developed from scratch during the recent decade, based upon designs such as the modular Lantan rifle. The solutions implemented in MSBS design are legally protected by six patents, six Community industrial designs and one industrial design.
> 
> The test programme did not expose any significant defects, they have rather exemplified the habits of the users. For the soldiers who have been using the Beryl rifle the sight has been new - with a hole in the rear sight, applied instead of a conventional rear sight.
> 
> The Special Forces, frequently utilizing the HK416 system, complain about the hard trigger, as the commando weaponry usually features lighter sporting-like trigger mechanisms. Another concern is the 45-degree angle step of the fire selector (commando weaponry has a step of 90 degrees which causes the users to switch the weapon to full-auto mode, instead of single shot mode). One of the elements criticized by most of the users is the stock, which requires further work.
> 
> _We are trying hard to inspire the Polish manufacturers to create a kind of ecosystem around the GROT rifle, with extra equipment packages for this weapon – _as we were told by General Wiesław Kukuła, stressing the fact that the rifle should be fitted with a wide assortment of domestically manufactured equipment. Thus, during this year’s edition of the MSPO event, Szafir sight has been awarded by the WOT Commander. It is to be the primary sight type for this component.
> 
> MSBS may also be used with components other than the ones manufactured domestically. It is the first Polish carbine fully compliant with the NATO standards. Not only does it feature Picatinny rails that may be freely reconfigured, it may also be fed from standard STANAG magazines, such as the ones coming from the German HK416, British SA80 or Czech Bren 2 or the US M4 weapons. During the tests in the Territorial Defence component, the weapon was verified with several magazines delivered by a variety of manufacturers.
> 
> The tests have shown that Grot is less susceptible to jamming when using low quality ammo or when shooting from a dirty barrel in intense battle, or when it is insufficiently maintained, also when compared to the weapons used by the Special Forces now.
> 
> *Who is to receive the Grot rifles?*
> 
> The question as to who is going to receive the 53 thousand Grot rifles is quite tough. Contrary to what it may seem, the number is not tied to the 50 thousand of WOT soldiers. This is directly derived from a structure of a light infantry squad which is the basic organizational unit in this formation. According to the composition disclosed back in 2016, 1/4 of the squad is not going to use the MSBS-556 variant (two sharpshooters using the .308 Win rifles and one LMG operator).
> 
> Grot rifles are, hence, going to be received also by the operational units of the Armed Forces. At the moment no official data as to what units would receive the rifles exists. Due to the fact that the rifles are fully compliant with the STANAG norms, MSBS Grot would be a natural choice for the soldiers deployed abroad and for those who cooperate with the NATO units in Poland. The same arguments apply to possible introduction of the rifle to the units operating together with the WOT component, for the sake of unification.
> 
> Ultimately, it is planned that 5.56 mm calibre is employed in the military, with the 7.62x39 mm round weaponry being decommissioned. This type of weapons is to be replaced by Beryls, to be replaced, in the frontline units, by the Grot rifles. Such solution would allow for a fluid transition to a unified standard, with proper reserves and affordable cost levels maintained.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.defence24.com/664005,msbs-grot-rifle-a-new-generation-of-polish-weapons-analysis



Hi,

SCAR is a very expensive weapon---its manufacturing in pakistan won't bring any outside business to pakistan---.

The buyers of pak weapons need something *inexpensive*---very good quality.

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## Hexciter

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> SCAR is a very expensive weapon---its manufacturing in pakistan won't bring any outside business to pakistan---.
> 
> The buyers of pak weapons need something *inexpensive*---very good quality.



A very logical interpretation at the end!

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## Kompromat

Polish have zero history of rifle manufacturing, this rifle is just an ACR rip off.

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## Zarvan

Horus said:


> Polish have zero history of rifle manufacturing, this rifle is just an ACR rip off.


Issue is first POF delegation was at Poland than Air Chief now HIT team so what is going on in Poland


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## SSGcommandoPAK

Off topic but what type of grenade is this ? doesn't look like a smoke grenade to me .


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## TaimiKhan

Pakistan Army ' said:


> Off topic but what type of grenade is this ? doesn't look like a smoke grenade to me .


Its a white phosphorus grenade used as a smoke screen to hide movement of troops. Tanks use the same grenades when detect a threat.

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## Ahmet Pasha

As long as it works like ACR or SCAR and cost like AK we are good with it 



Horus said:


> Polish have zero history of rifle manufacturing, this rifle is just an ACR rip off.


----------



## Kompromat

SCAR & ACR cost so much because of their metallurgy. You don't want a rifle which turns red hot after two mags. 



Ahmet Pasha said:


> As long as it works like ACR or SCAR and cost like AK we are good with it

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## Zarvan

Horus said:


> SCAR & ACR cost so much because of their metallurgy. You don't want a rifle which turns red hot after two mags.


That is why they should go for SCAR and start production as soon as possible


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## Ahmet Pasha

And the SCAR circus starts again.


Zarvan said:


> That is why they should go for SCAR and start production as soon as possible


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## LegitimateIdiot

Zarvan said:


> That is why they should go for SCAR and start production as soon as possible


the SSG are already better than india's marcos but damn they would do much better with scars right?


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## Ahmet Pasha

Why didnt your MARCOS rescue your own people in the ship that was hijacked by Somali pirates then????


Smriti95 said:


> No they are not.

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## Ahmet Pasha

No but why did ur government and armed forces refuse to take action on the ship that was liberated by efforts of nisar barni and SSGN????


Smriti95 said:


> Just last month Marcos rescued an Indian ship from pirate attack:
> 
> https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/ind...attack-on-indian-ship-in-gulf-of-aden-1759561


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## LegitimateIdiot

Smriti95 said:


> No they are not.


yeah they are



Smriti95 said:


> There simply was no Indian ship in that area at the time.


thats a lie

the


Smriti95 said:


> There simply was no Indian ship in that area at the time.


 one that happened 6 years ago


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## denel

Horus said:


> Polish have zero history of rifle manufacturing, this rifle is just an ACR rip off.


Well put; why are they going on left right tours and enjoying themselves. Man Czech weapons are extremely good. They will go around in circles and most likely settle for CZ in terms of costs/roi for the capabilities it brings.

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## django

Smriti95 said:


> No they are not.


SSG operators innately more athletic, powerful and agile than men from Ganga and Dravid regions, this is clear for all to see.


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## SurvivoR

Stop feeding trolls guys. Stay on topic.

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## django

Smriti95 said:


> Not at all.
> People from Indus region have lower life expectancy and higher child and maternal mortality which obviously means they are less healthier.


Even most of your Para commandos tend to be from places like Amritsar and Haryana , now way near Gangalands......Anyway take this to an appropriate thread, let us not deviate from the subject of rifle replacement!


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## Gryphon

*Official Visit of the Federal Minister for Defence Production to the Czech Republic (29 October to 01 November 2017)*

*




*

(2017-11-01) Honourable Rana Tanveer Hussain, Federal Minister for Defence Production paid an official visit to Czech Republic heading a 4-member delegation at the invitation of Ing. Tomas Kuchta, Deputy Minister for Defence of Czech Republic from 29 October to 01 November 2017. 

The Federal Minister for Defence Production accompanied by Major General Tariq Ghafoor, Additional Secretary and Ambassador Dr. Israr Hussain along with the delegation held a meeting with Mr. Martin Tlapa, Deputy Minister for Foreign Affairs on 31 October 2017 at the Czernin Palace, Prague. The two delegations expressed satisfaction over smooth progression of bilateral relations in diverse fields. Both the ministers concurred to further strengthen trade and economic ties along with augmentation of defence relations between the two countries. The Minister Tanveer Hussain sought support of Czech Republic in the forthcoming review of GSP+ status for Pakistan. They also shared views on Pakistan-India relations. 

The Federal Minister held delegation level talks with Ing. Tomas Kuchta, Deputy Minister of Defence at the Ministry of Defence. Both the ministers agreed to promote defence cooperation by identifying areas of common interests and explore possibilities of establishing joint-ventures involving transfer of technology to Pakistan. 

The Federal Minister for Defence Production extended invitation to Deputy Minister for an official visit to Pakistan which was accepted. He also expressed optimism that the forthcoming visit of Deputy Minister will add further substance to defence cooperation between the two countries. 

Minister Tanveer Hussain also visited Czech defence facilities including Ceska Zbrojovka (CZ), OMNIPOL and Aero Vodochody. 


Prague 
01 November 2017

http://www.mofa.gov.pk/czechrepublic/pr-details.php?prID=5623

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## batmannow

Gryphon said:


> *Official Visit of the Federal Minister for Defence Production to the Czech Republic (29 October to 01 November 2017)*
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> (2017-11-01) Honourable Rana Tanveer Hussain, Federal Minister for Defence Production paid an official visit to Czech Republic heading a 4-member delegation at the invitation of Ing. Tomas Kuchta, Deputy Minister for Defence of Czech Republic from 29 October to 01 November 2017.
> 
> The Federal Minister for Defence Production accompanied by Major General Tariq Ghafoor, Additional Secretary and Ambassador Dr. Israr Hussain along with the delegation held a meeting with Mr. Martin Tlapa, Deputy Minister for Foreign Affairs on 31 October 2017 at the Czernin Palace, Prague. The two delegations expressed satisfaction over smooth progression of bilateral relations in diverse fields. Both the ministers concurred to further strengthen trade and economic ties along with augmentation of defence relations between the two countries. The Minister Tanveer Hussain sought support of Czech Republic in the forthcoming review of GSP+ status for Pakistan. They also shared views on Pakistan-India relations.
> 
> The Federal Minister held delegation level talks with Ing. Tomas Kuchta, Deputy Minister of Defence at the Ministry of Defence. Both the ministers agreed to promote defence cooperation by identifying areas of common interests and explore possibilities of establishing joint-ventures involving transfer of technology to Pakistan.
> 
> The Federal Minister for Defence Production extended invitation to Deputy Minister for an official visit to Pakistan which was accepted. He also expressed optimism that the forthcoming visit of Deputy Minister will add further substance to defence cooperation between the two countries.
> 
> Minister Tanveer Hussain also visited Czech defence facilities including Ceska Zbrojovka (CZ), OMNIPOL and Aero Vodochody.
> 
> 
> Prague
> 01 November 2017
> 
> http://www.mofa.gov.pk/czechrepublic/pr-details.php?prID=5623


hopefully he won't be asking for , few secret bank accounts to be oppened for his master Nawaz sharif ?lol

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## Gryphon

batmannow said:


> hopefully he won't be asking for , few secret bank accounts to be oppened for his master Nawaz sharif ?lol



Hopefully. Ministers have own requirements as well.

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## Curious_Guy

On a lighter note 
@Zarvan

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## Tacticool

Can some one summarize, what current contenders are?


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## Ahmet Pasha

Any news guys???
I think with financial and political turmoi this program may be in jeopardy.


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## SecularNationalist

Horus said:


> SCAR & ACR cost so much because of their metallurgy. You don't want a rifle which turns red hot after two mags.


Opt for Russian AK then.
Its low cost and fire all night the barrel won't turn red.


----------



## YeBeWarned

denel said:


> Well put; why are they going on left right tours and enjoying themselves. Man Czech weapons are extremely good. *They will go around in circles and most likely settle for CZ in terms of costs/roi for the capabilities it brings.*



Exactly what i am thinking

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## Zarvan

SecularNationalist said:


> Opt for Russian AK then.
> Its low cost and fire all night the barrel won't turn red.


For your information AK failed along with BREN in our endurance test. SCAR is expensive but worth the price



Ahmet Pasha said:


> Any news guys???
> I think with financial and political turmoi this program may be in jeopardy.


Nope program is running trials are over we reviewing the matter and also POF getting upgraded soon decision will be finalized about the winner


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## razgriz19

Horus said:


> Polish have zero history of rifle manufacturing, this rifle is just an ACR rip off.


Well Turkey doesnt have any history of building attack helicopters and other equipment but our military certainly wants every piece of it.


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## Kompromat

Its based on Italian A-129



razgriz19 said:


> Well Turkey doesnt have any history of building attack helicopters and other equipment but our military certainly wants every piece of it.

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## Awan68

Horus said:


> Its based on Italian A-129


Horus, i suggest u take notice of needless jibes and insults by certain members at islamic concepts which is contrary to the policy of the forum of ideological tolerance and breeds un healthy envoirment for constructive discussion. Some members have also made it a policy of targetting a certain member due to his beard(personal appearance) which is unfortunate. Thankyou.



SecularNationalist said:


> Mind your language son.I swear if you used that language in front of me i would have broken your jaw bone.But you are just a key board warrior so you are gonna be ok.
> By calling me secular whore of west you are not insulting me you are insulting the founding father of our nation.What a pity you don,t even know the meaning of secularism ,secularism is not godlessness thats called atheism .Stop living such a sheltered life,get out of your madrasa and explore the world.You brain dead islamist morons got nothing to be proud of ,did not achieve jack shit.You are a complete waste of space ,your life and existence has no purpose and you are just a fly on a pile of shit.
> That guy zarvan is a proven terrorist if you ever looked at his posts and ideology.He deserve no respect from any decent and civilized man.You talk about IQ? Looks at your islamist brethren IQ who call AK a failed rifle  Ak is adopted by some of the finest armies in the world but they are all idiots according to a madrasa boy.
> You must be very proud of the high IQ revolver you made in your local madrassa which will be used to fight with so called secular kufars


I will ignore all the rest of bullshit as trash out of that dustbin u call ur head. Now lets get to that jaw bone part, i live in phase 4 bahria town islamabad , be a man and feel free to take me up anytime. I will drag u on the road and dump you in swan naala. You little whiny sissy, my family eats boys like u for breakfast. Better men than you work my lands and call me sahib. Be a man and pay me a visit. Its cowardly shits like you who are too afraid to voice thier venom againat islam openly in society yet hide behind keyboard on the net to went out thier bullshit.



SecularNationalist said:


> AK failed?Are you kidding me?So the whole russian army must be idiot who opted for AK.
> Why don,t you suggest your local madrassa made rifile.


Where do u live boy?

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## Army research

Awan68 said:


> Horus, i suggest u take notice of needless jibes and insults by certain members at islamic concepts which is contrary to the policy of the forum of ideological tolerance and breeds un healthy envoirment for constructive discussion. Some members have also made it a policy of targetting a certain member due to his beard(personal appearance) which is unfortunate. Thankyou.
> 
> 
> I will ignore all the rest of bullshit as trash out of that dustbin u call ur head. Now lets get to that jaw bone part, i live in phase 4 bahria town islamabad , be a man and feel free to take me up anytime. I will drag u on the road and dump you in swan naala. You little whiny sissy, my family eats boys like u for breakfast. Better men than you work my lands and call me sahib. Be a man and pay me a visit. Its cowardly shits like you who are too afraid to voice thier venom againat islam openly in society yet hide behind keyboard on the net to went out thier bullshit.
> 
> 
> Where do u live boy?


If some one has views different to Muslim's, they are told to be silent and forgive

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## Awan68

Army research said:


> If some one has views different to Muslim's, they are told to be silent and forgive


Different views is one thing and needless verbal attacks and insults another.


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## LegitimateIdiot

SecularNationalist said:


> AK failed?Are you kidding me?So the whole russian army must be idiot who opted for AK.
> Why don,t you suggest your local madrassa made rifile.





SecularNationalist said:


> AK failed?Are you kidding me?So the whole russian army must be idiot who opted for AK.
> Why don,t you suggest your local madrassa made rifile.


dude when you say explore the world , your implying that you can not explore the world and be a good Muslim , and dont call Zarvan a terrorist , he is just a true patriot of Pakistan and a good muslim . Now i have no problem with people of other faiths , but people like you , who stuff your views in other people's faces dont are the problem of modern society.

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## GriffinsRule

Awan68 said:


> whats with the madrassa jibe u idiot, better a madrassa student than a godless secular whore of the west. And by the way why dont u ask ur little english medium school to come up with a gun while ur at it judging from the fact that ur under the impression that defence equipment is produced in educational institutions but than again judging from ur non existant iq, u might actually believe it lol.



The person insulting others is asking admins to take note of others using foul language? Why don't you apply your own standards to yourself first before telling others what to think or say for a change.

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## Arsalan

May be we should scrap the gun project and hire a few kids from here!! Most of them shoot (filth) better than most guns.

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## Sucha Kuggu

I will better spend one extra dozens of bullets than going for expensive gun.


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## Awan68

GriffinsRule said:


> The person insulting others is asking admins to take note of others using foul language? Why don't you apply your own standards to yourself first before telling others what to think or say for a change.


I did it in retaliation when he needlessly insulted another member on religious grounds, i didnt start it, provocation is an offence mate, every action begs a reaction.

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## Gryphon

*7.62x39mm CZ 807s in use by Egyptian Security Forces, Possible option to Manufacture in Egypt*

by Miles
2017/12/19






Photographs of Egyptian Security Forces armed with 7.62x39mm CZ 807s have recently surfaced, thanks to the efforts of Egypt Defense Review and Mahmoud Gamal, both in-depth analysts of Egyptian defenseprograms. The 7.62x39mm rifles were recently seen in what appears to be a joint operation with Egyptian Paratroopers and Sa’ka special forces in Egypt. In 2013 we reported that a large contract with Česká zbrojovka Uherský Brod (CZ) had taken place wherein CZ P-07 handguns, Scorpions, and 5.56x45mm CZ 805s were purchased. From the images, at the time it would appear that this was a law enforcement program to Egyptian police forces separate from the defense forces. Now, from various sources online, it looks like Egypt is actually interested in manufacturing the 807 at home, purchasing a manufacturing license from CZ. This process appears to have picked up in May of this year, and there isn’t much information beyond that. We also have a post on Egypt Defense Portal that has this to say about the technology transfer (Google Translate)-

_After the announcement by Lubomír Kovaíík, the head of Czech small armsmanufacturer Česká Zbrojovka CZ during a press conference in February with the Czech newspaper Deník, that Egypt had begun negotiations with the company to transfer manufacturing technology For the CZ 807 double-caliber assault rifle (39 x 7.62 mm Soviet and 45 x 5.56 mm NATO), explaining that the conclusion of the contract depends on the results of the test of Egypt for the Venice current period and to complement the previous report we review the most important features of the gun and its technical specifications._

It must be noted that the 807 Bren is actually a dual caliber rifle, unlike the earlier 5.56x45mm NATO 805 that it is derived from. Initially comes with a lower receiver that accepts proprietary CZ 7.62x39mm magazines (and matching interchangeable barrel/bolt). These magazines are of note because they are direct insert and not at all compatible with standard Kalashnikov magazines with the “rock in” magazinerelease. Inserting a STANAG magazine insert allows the use of 5.56x45mm NATO magazines to used, along with changing out the interchangeable barrel and the bolt.

This photograph was chared on Egypt Defense Review’s Twitter feed–






In addition to these two on Mahmoud Gamal’s Twitter feed-











7.62x39mm CZ 807s in use by Egyptian Security Forces, Possible option to Manufacture in Egypt | thefirearmblog.com

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## Path-Finder

Gryphon said:


> *7.62x39mm CZ 807s in use by Egyptian Security Forces, Possible option to Manufacture in Egypt*
> 
> by Miles
> 2017/12/19
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Photographs of Egyptian Security Forces armed with 7.62x39mm CZ 807s have recently surfaced, thanks to the efforts of Egypt Defense Review and Mahmoud Gamal, both in-depth analysts of Egyptian defenseprograms. The 7.62x39mm rifles were recently seen in what appears to be a joint operation with Egyptian Paratroopers and Sa’ka special forces in Egypt. In 2013 we reported that a large contract with Česká zbrojovka Uherský Brod (CZ) had taken place wherein CZ P-07 handguns, Scorpions, and 5.56x45mm CZ 805s were purchased. From the images, at the time it would appear that this was a law enforcement program to Egyptian police forces separate from the defense forces. Now, from various sources online, it looks like Egypt is actually interested in manufacturing the 807 at home, purchasing a manufacturing license from CZ. This process appears to have picked up in May of this year, and there isn’t much information beyond that. We also have a post on Egypt Defense Portal that has this to say about the technology transfer (Google Translate)-
> 
> _After the announcement by Lubomír Kovaíík, the head of Czech small armsmanufacturer Česká Zbrojovka CZ during a press conference in February with the Czech newspaper Deník, that Egypt had begun negotiations with the company to transfer manufacturing technology For the CZ 807 double-caliber assault rifle (39 x 7.62 mm Soviet and 45 x 5.56 mm NATO), explaining that the conclusion of the contract depends on the results of the test of Egypt for the Venice current period and to complement the previous report we review the most important features of the gun and its technical specifications._
> 
> It must be noted that the 807 Bren is actually a dual caliber rifle, unlike the earlier 5.56x45mm NATO 805 that it is derived from. Initially comes with a lower receiver that accepts proprietary CZ 7.62x39mm magazines (and matching interchangeable barrel/bolt). These magazines are of note because they are direct insert and not at all compatible with standard Kalashnikov magazines with the “rock in” magazinerelease. Inserting a STANAG magazine insert allows the use of 5.56x45mm NATO magazines to used, along with changing out the interchangeable barrel and the bolt.
> 
> This photograph was chared on Egypt Defense Review’s Twitter feed–
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In addition to these two on Mahmoud Gamal’s Twitter feed-
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 7.62x39mm CZ 807s in use by Egyptian Security Forces, Possible option to Manufacture in Egypt | thefirearmblog.com



Hazrat @Zarvan months ago I posted here that Egypt is going for/interested in CZ 807 as it was linked to Pakistani Trials and you pulled some source out from somewhere that no Egypt is not going for CZ!

Why are they getting CZ then?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/860541983605088256
Pakistan's Service Rifle (G-3, Type-56) Replacement Competition 2016.

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat @Zarvan months ago I posted here that Egypt is going for/interested in CZ 807 as it was linked to Pakistani Trials and you pulled some source out from somewhere that no Egypt is not going for CZ!
> 
> Why are they getting CZ then?
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/860541983605088256
> Pakistan's Service Rifle (G-3, Type-56) Replacement Competition 2016.


I heard the news of CZ 807 but than it totally vanished and instead most Egyptian guys were being seen with Beretta so as soon vanished many thought that they are not coming even now they are still rumors nothing solid or deal yet.


----------



## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> I heard the news of CZ 807 but than it totally vanished and instead most Egyptian guys were being seen with Beretta so as soon vanished many thought that they are not coming even now they are still rumors nothing solid or deal yet.



rumor? 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/943896155863306246

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> rumor?
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/943896155863306246


These are pictures taken few days ago but until a two weeks ago there was hardly any picture of Egyptian Soldiers carrying CZ 807. Most pictures of soldiers were either with old AK or new Berreta mainly 7.62 X 39 version of Beretta ARX


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> These are pictures taken few days ago but until a two weeks ago there was hardly any picture of Egyptian Soldiers carrying CZ 807. Most pictures of soldiers were either with old AK or new Berreta mainly 7.62 X 39 version of Beretta ARX



well it is a sorry state of affairs.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/860575910038319105

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/860541555471376384
call it #FakeNews if you wish!

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## Gryphon

Path-Finder said:


> well it is a sorry state of affairs.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/860575910038319105
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/860541555471376384
> call it #FakeNews if you wish!



This was said by Lubomir Kovarik, CZ CEO

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paki...competition-2016.426049/page-315#post-9611835

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## Path-Finder

Gryphon said:


> This was said by Lubomir Kovarik, CZ CEO
> 
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paki...competition-2016.426049/page-315#post-9611835



It appears CZ is now poised to be in Egyptian hands. Before Pakistan

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## Gryphon

Path-Finder said:


> It appears CZ is now poised to be in Egyptian hands. Before Pakistan



I doubt if it will ever make it to Pakistan. 34 Light Infantry Division, currently being raised by PA, is getting new Type 56's.

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## Path-Finder

Gryphon said:


> I doubt if it will ever make it to Pakistan. 34 Light Infantry Division, currently being raised by PA, is getting new Type 56's.

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## Zarvan

Gryphon said:


> I doubt if it will ever make it to Pakistan. 34 Light Infantry Division, currently being raised by PA, is getting new Type 56's.


Off Course they will until we select Rifle and place order even if we do it now it would take at least 2 years for production to start and if we order let say 100000 from the company even that would take at least 6 months for first batch to arrive so if you are raising new Division you have to give them current weapons

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## Ahmet Pasha

Wese guys any updates from POF or any other official source??? 
Does this egyptian deal means our dreams of CZ BREN in PA are over???


Gryphon said:


> I doubt if it will ever make it to Pakistan. 34 Light Infantry Division, currently being raised by PA, is getting new Type 56's.





Path-Finder said:


>





Zarvan said:


> Off Course they will until we select Rifle and place order even if we do it now it would take at least 2 years for production to start and if we order let say 100000 from the company even that would take at least 6 months for first batch to arrive so if you are raising new Division you have to give them current weapons


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## Zarvan

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Wese guys any updates from POF or any other official source???
> Does this egyptian deal means our dreams of CZ BREN in PA are over???


No not at all if we are satisfied with CZ we can also go for them and CZ company would love to give us TOT


----------



## Gryphon

*MSBS "Grot" is very popular among NATO and Allied countries. The PGZ Group is currently conducting talks on the possibility of providing these modern rifles to for example Estonia and Pakistan. The issue of having full patent rights allows PGZ to fully address the demand of a potential client seeking not only high-quality weapons, but also a wide training package and - in the case of large orders - technology transfer.*

First GROT rifles in the Polish Armed Forces

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## Ahmet Pasha

Both CZ and BREN seem to be strong contenders.
Cz gives many options such as EVO,handguns and BREN

Radom gives both rifle and bullpup.
Interesting!!


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## Zarvan

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Both CZ and BREN seem to be strong contenders.
> Cz gives many options such as EVO,handguns and BREN
> 
> Radom gives both rifle and bullpup.
> Interesting!!


CZ and BREN are same thing JAnab



Gryphon said:


> *MSBS "Grot" is very popular among NATO and Allied countries. The PGZ Group is currently conducting talks on the possibility of providing these modern rifles to for example Estonia and Pakistan. The issue of having full patent rights allows PGZ to fully address the demand of a potential client seeking not only high-quality weapons, but also a wide training package and - in the case of large orders - technology transfer.*
> 
> First GROT rifles in the Polish Armed Forces


It seem we are in talks with every one from BREN to Beretta to SCAR to AK we seem to be in talks with every one


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## Ahmet Pasha

I know sir
I've known since this thread began some 200 years ago 


Zarvan said:


> CZ and BREN are same thing JAnab
> 
> 
> It seem we are in talks with every one from BREN to Beretta to SCAR to AK we seem to be in talks with every one


----------



## Gryphon

Zarvan said:


> Off Course they will until we select Rifle and place order even if we do it now it would take at least 2 years for production to start and if we order let say 100000 from the company even that would take at least 6 months for first batch to arrive so if you are raising new Division you have to give them current weapons



PA could have issued the rifles lying at various depots or captured ones for sometime rather than importing new.



Path-Finder said:


>







Ahmet Pasha said:


> Both CZ and BREN seem to be strong contenders.
> Cz gives many options such as EVO,handguns and BREN
> 
> Radom gives both rifle and bullpup.
> Interesting!!



This Polish rifle is inferior to other designs - Scar & CZ and more complex to produce as well.

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## Path-Finder

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/940263764770861057

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## Gryphon

Path-Finder said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/940263764770861057



If true, would be a massive boost for CZ 807 after the loss in New Zealand.


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## Path-Finder

Gryphon said:


> If true, would be a massive boost for CZ 807 after the loss in New Zealand.



French GIGN, Egyptian Spec Ops. Pakistan

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## LegitimateIdiot

Gryphon said:


> *7.62x39mm CZ 807s in use by Egyptian Security Forces, Possible option to Manufacture in Egypt*
> 
> by Miles
> 2017/12/19
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Photographs of Egyptian Security Forces armed with 7.62x39mm CZ 807s have recently surfaced, thanks to the efforts of Egypt Defense Review and Mahmoud Gamal, both in-depth analysts of Egyptian defenseprograms. The 7.62x39mm rifles were recently seen in what appears to be a joint operation with Egyptian Paratroopers and Sa’ka special forces in Egypt. In 2013 we reported that a large contract with Česká zbrojovka Uherský Brod (CZ) had taken place wherein CZ P-07 handguns, Scorpions, and 5.56x45mm CZ 805s were purchased. From the images, at the time it would appear that this was a law enforcement program to Egyptian police forces separate from the defense forces. Now, from various sources online, it looks like Egypt is actually interested in manufacturing the 807 at home, purchasing a manufacturing license from CZ. This process appears to have picked up in May of this year, and there isn’t much information beyond that. We also have a post on Egypt Defense Portal that has this to say about the technology transfer (Google Translate)-
> 
> _After the announcement by Lubomír Kovaíík, the head of Czech small armsmanufacturer Česká Zbrojovka CZ during a press conference in February with the Czech newspaper Deník, that Egypt had begun negotiations with the company to transfer manufacturing technology For the CZ 807 double-caliber assault rifle (39 x 7.62 mm Soviet and 45 x 5.56 mm NATO), explaining that the conclusion of the contract depends on the results of the test of Egypt for the Venice current period and to complement the previous report we review the most important features of the gun and its technical specifications._
> 
> It must be noted that the 807 Bren is actually a dual caliber rifle, unlike the earlier 5.56x45mm NATO 805 that it is derived from. Initially comes with a lower receiver that accepts proprietary CZ 7.62x39mm magazines (and matching interchangeable barrel/bolt). These magazines are of note because they are direct insert and not at all compatible with standard Kalashnikov magazines with the “rock in” magazinerelease. Inserting a STANAG magazine insert allows the use of 5.56x45mm NATO magazines to used, along with changing out the interchangeable barrel and the bolt.
> 
> This photograph was chared on Egypt Defense Review’s Twitter feed–
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In addition to these two on Mahmoud Gamal’s Twitter feed-
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 7.62x39mm CZ 807s in use by Egyptian Security Forces, Possible option to Manufacture in Egypt | thefirearmblog.com


Thats THICK not the People the equipment


----------



## Path-Finder

LegitimateIdiot said:


> Thats THICK not the People the equipment


what does that mean?


----------



## Gryphon

Path-Finder said:


> French GIGN, Egyptian Spec Ops. Pakistan



Czech Army & French GIGN adopted the CZ Bren 2, offered with barrels ranging from 8-14 inches in length which makes for CQB/carbine/assault rifle.

CZ 807 comes with a 16 inch barrel, just like Type 56, for more conventional requirements.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Gryphon said:


> Czech Army & French GIGN adopted the CZ Bren 2, offered with barrels ranging from 8-14 inches in length which makes for CQB/carbine/assault rifle.
> 
> CZ 807 comes with a 16 inch barrel, just like Type 56, for more conventional requirements.


IMO at this stage, any deal or no deal, it's on us and our problems.

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## Path-Finder

Gryphon said:


> Czech Army & French GIGN adopted the CZ Bren 2, offered with barrels ranging from 8-14 inches in length which makes for CQB/carbine/assault rifle.
> 
> CZ 807 comes with a 16 inch barrel, just like Type 56, for more conventional requirements.



Me thinks, Type 56 may get further updates and new rifle tendre could be scrapped. Like this Polish Beryl

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Me thinks, Type 56 may get further updates and new rifle tendre could be scrapped. Like this Polish Beryl


No chance of tender getting scrapped. POF is basically getting updated and soon decision will be made

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## Gryphon

Path-Finder said:


> Me thinks, Type 56 may get further updates and new rifle tendre could be scrapped. Like this Polish Beryl



Beryl is an AK-47 chambered for 5.56x45. The upgrades it got have already been applied by Pakistan Army and Rangers to the Type 56 - Picatinny rail, grip and new stock.

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## Zarvan

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/945685124699471872


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/945685124699471872


Hazrat time fo dhamal.

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## blain2

Gryphon said:


> I doubt if it will ever make it to Pakistan. 34 Light Infantry Division, currently being raised by PA, is getting new Type 56's.


362 pages on, members are still discussing options  Give this a rest, my take is that Pakistan will be at least a few more years late before a decision is made to change the G3 with something else. This is because funding is a huge issue as always and the decision is dependent on many factors including the vast numbers needed (it will be one rifle replacing the G3 in use of all 3 services), it will obviously require licensed production, new assembly lines for the rifle and the ammunition manufacturing and potentially any or all add-ons.

This is a very long term process specially for the numbers needed (north of 500,000) rifles. I don't foresee a decision being made before 2020 with the impact (production and re-equipping) being seen in the next Armed Forces Development Plan (AFDP) post 2025. In the meantime, specialized units will continue to buy small arms as their needs evolve but no big switch in the current AFDP.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

blain2 said:


> 362 pages on, members are still discussing options  Give this a rest, my take is that Pakistan will be at least a few more years late before a decision is made to change the G3 with something else. This is because funding is a huge issue as always and the decision is dependent on many factors including the vast numbers needed (it will be one rifle replacing the G3 in use of all 3 services), it will obviously require licensed production, new assembly lines for the rifle and the ammunition manufacturing and potentially any or all add-ons.
> 
> This is a very long term process specially for the numbers needed (north of 500,000) rifles. I don't foresee a decision being made before 2020 with the impact (production and re-equipping) being seen in the next Armed Forces Development Plan (AFDP) post 2025. In the meantime, specialized units will continue to buy small arms as their needs evolve but no big switch in the current AFDP.


I remember Turkey starting their process pre-2010. They even had to revise their rifle platform from the HK-416-based Mehmetcik-1 to MKEK's own take on the AR-platform - aka MPT-76. The Turkish Army only began inducting the MPT-76 in 2016-2017. This is what it took for a NATO army with more resources than Pakistan, imagine the PA which is both fiscally constrained _and _fighting a protracted COIN campaign.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Purely speculating here but I think POF first wants to upgrade their manufacturing abilities.

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## YeBeWarned

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Purely speculating here but I think POF first wants to upgrade their manufacturing abilities.



Not speculation but this is a logical explanation for the delay ..

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## Gryphon

#Egyptian paratroopers armed with CZ-807 rifles .























__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/950056387945684992

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/950058733626888192
Since last month, the rifle started to appear with members of #Egyptian special forces (paratroopers / Sa'ka) So far, it isn't known if the rifle will be deployed only to Special Forces units or to all Egyptian army units as replacement for old Ak-47 rifles .







__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/950061186325852161

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## django

Hazrat @Zarvan @Path-Finder 
The CZ-807 seems to be quite a long rifle, how ergonomic would it be in a humvee type of vehicle???


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## Ahmet Pasha

Carbine, folding stock etc etc.


django said:


> Hazrat @Zarvan @Path-Finder
> The CZ-807 seems to be quite a long rifle, how ergonomic would it be in a humvee type of vehicle???

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## django

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Carbine, folding stock etc etc.


Even with stock folded it is pretty long but then every rifle has it's drawbacks.Kudos


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## Zarvan

django said:


> Even with stock folded it is pretty long but then every rifle has it's drawbacks.Kudos


Modern Rifles are available in all sizes. This one has 16 inch barrel but it can have 12 inch barrel also

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## Path-Finder

django said:


> Hazrat @Zarvan @Path-Finder
> The CZ-807 seems to be quite a long rifle, how ergonomic would it be in a humvee type of vehicle???


I thought its better our resident Muffakar/Derwaish answers the question. I is not worthy!

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## django

Path-Finder said:


> I thought its better our resident Muffakar/Derwaish answers the question. I is not worthy!


LOL.Kudos bro


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## Thunder.Storm

[emoji41] [emoji41]


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## Irfan Baloch

Path-Finder said:


> I thought its better our resident Muffakar/Derwaish answers the question. I is not worthy!


Hazoors 
why are we discussing other armies and their choices? dont we give enough flying Fs on other threads?

ps its 2018 and the 2 year old competition didnt yield any results?


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## Ahmet Pasha

Change of administration after elections might show some progress.


Irfan Baloch said:


> Hazoors
> why are we discussing other armies and their choices? dont we give enough flying Fs on other threads?
> 
> ps its 2018 and the 2 year old competition didnt yield any results?


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## Path-Finder

Irfan Baloch said:


> Hazoors
> why are we discussing other armies and their choices? dont we give enough flying Fs on other threads?
> 
> ps its 2018 and the 2 year old competition didnt yield any results?



I hope the decision makers wake up with a thousand insects in their pants.

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## django

Path-Finder said:


> I hope the decision makers wake up with a thousand insects in the pants.


Hazrat will throw an Armadillo in their way lol.Kudos

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## ghazi52

Heckler & Koch’s M27

*New M27 Assault Rifle To Replace Long Running M4*


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## TheDarkKnight

@Zarvan
Bhai you said rifle will be selected and announced after budget in june 2017. We are now in 2018 ... where is the result now? And what about Su35 or Eurofighters that were comming for sure according to your PAF sources? (Apparently NS was creating problems, but now he is gone so)


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## Army research

TheDarkKnight said:


> @Zarvan
> Bhai you said rifle will be selected and announced after budget in june 2017. We are now in 2018 ... where is the result now? And what about Su35 or Eurofighters that were comming for sure according to your PAF sources? (Apparently NS was creating problems, but now he is gone so)


Don't commit blasphemy


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## django

Hazrat @Zarvan Folk are demanding answers!!!!!!!

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## TheDarkKnight

Army research said:


> Don't commit blasphemy


No toba meri. I think he is very “reliable” and has a lot of “inside” information, so just asking for updates in the most humble manner. I believe its about time as he had also said that even instruction manuals of SCAR were being distributed amont units. So @Zarvan bhai: Budget has passed and NS is also gone, any updates? Atleast any pics of the “instruction manuals” from your sources on Whatsapp group? Eagerly waiting for SCAR and EFT /SU35 in our arsenal, or atleast an announcement for the planned induction etc.

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## Army research

TheDarkKnight said:


> No toba meri. I think he is very “reliable” and has a lot of “inside” information, so just asking for updates in the most humble manner. I believe its about time as he had also said that even instruction manuals of SCAR were being distributed amont units. So @Zarvan bhai: Budget has passed and NS is also gone, any updates? Atleast any pics of the “instruction manuals” from your sources on Whatsapp group? Eagerly waiting for SCAR and EFT /SU35 in our arsenal, or atleast an announcement for the planned induction etc.


Printer ran out of ink to print manuals

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## Zarvan

TheDarkKnight said:


> No toba meri. I think he is very “reliable” and has a lot of “inside” information, so just asking for updates in the most humble manner. I believe its about time as he had also said that even instruction manuals of SCAR were being distributed amont units. So @Zarvan bhai: Budget has passed and NS is also gone, any updates? Atleast any pics of the “instruction manuals” from your sources on Whatsapp group? Eagerly waiting for SCAR and EFT /SU35 in our arsenal, or atleast an announcement for the planned induction etc.


They have started to upgrade the POF than Rifle will be selected. Trials are over SCAR was on top and Berreta on 2nd position. By the way our own G3 was way ahead in accuracy trials but in other areas SCAR was leading.


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## TheDarkKnight

Zarvan said:


> They have started to upgrade the POF than Rifle will be selected. Trials are over SCAR was on top and Berreta on 2nd position. By the way our own G3 was way ahead in accuracy trials but in other areas SCAR was leading.


So instruction manuals were distributed for SCAR or Berreta? What about the announcement and signing of agreement after budget in June 2017?


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## Arsalan

30 months and counting . . . . .
If by any LUCK a rifle do get selected some day (and we all know that it will) some certain folks will start arguing "See I told YA i had inside info on all this . . . . " WHILE they decide to keep MUTE on all relevant questions raised during all those years. A bit of _munafiqat_ anyone?

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## Zarvan

TheDarkKnight said:


> So instruction manuals were distributed for SCAR or Berreta? What about the announcement and signing of agreement after budget in June 2017?


It was supposed to happen but than they started focusing on first getting POF upgraded. Some decisions are the reason that is why POF head has also taken retirement


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## YeBeWarned

Arsalan said:


> 30 months and counting . . . . .
> If by any LUCK a rifle do get selected some day (and we all know that it will) some certain folks will start arguing "See I told YA i had inside info on all this . . . . " WHILE they decide to keep MUTE on all relevant questions raised during all those years. A bit of _munafiqat_ anyone?



You already know who is the biggest munafiq in this thread


----------



## TheDarkKnight

Zarvan said:


> It was supposed to happen but than they started focusing on first getting POF upgraded. Some decisions are the reason that is why POF head has also taken retirement


Were the manuals ever distributed? Or they have returned the manuals? And for which rifle SCAR or Beretta?

You forgot about Eurofighters: NS is now disqualified; Ishaq Dar is also out; Khaqan Abbasi is much more pro- establishment. So tell me about Su35 or EFT now ... you were saying these are comming for sure and only NS and Ishaq Dar were creating problems.

You need to ask yourself, why were you acting like Dr. Shahid Masood and giving dates on these illogical and unrealistic purchases? And now you have nothing to show once all the dates have passed.

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## scionofPakwattan

Zarvan said:


> It was supposed to happen but than they started focusing on first getting POF upgraded. Some decisions are the reason that is why POF head has also taken retirement


you mean corruption allegations? I have heard something abt this...


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## HannibalBarca

Hi, My yearly passing by...

So...Anything New?


----------



## TheDarkKnight

Arsalan said:


> 30 months and counting . . . . .
> If by any LUCK a rifle do get selected some day (and we all know that it will) some certain folks will start arguing "See I told YA i had inside info on all this . . . . " WHILE they decide to keep MUTE on all relevant questions raised during all those years. A bit of _munafiqat_ anyone?


People make so many claims that one of them is bound to be true in certain time. A joke goes: One famous pir claimed that he can predict if a woman will have a boy or a girl. He would tell the woman “Beeti aap ka beta hoga zaroor” then would whisper in her motherinlaw “honi eski beti ha, ma bas dil rakhnay ka liya beta bool raha hoon”. You can then see someone will always say “pir saab na bilkul sahi predict kiya!”

This forum is full of it; lambii lambii chooroo, China sa J10, nahi Russia sa Su35, nahi Eurofighter aur saath ma F16 bhi , aur haan dont forget Chinese j20 and j31; this budget year, nahi next wala etc. keep on revising the dates and estimates - and voila one day something will be bought and these people will then post links of their old posts and take credit. And would shamelessly ignore the 100s of false news and unrealistic estimates they have been providing without credible source. This reflects certain Psychological issues.

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## Zarvan

TheDarkKnight said:


> Were the manuals ever distributed? Or they have returned the manuals? And for which rifle SCAR or Beretta?
> 
> You forgot about Eurofighters: NS is now disqualified; Ishaq Dar is also out; Khaqan Abbasi is much more pro- establishment. So tell me about Su35 or EFT now ... you were saying these are comming for sure and only NS and Ishaq Dar were creating problems.
> 
> You need to ask yourself, why were you acting like Dr. Shahid Masood and giving dates on these illogical and unrealistic purchases? And now you have nothing to show once all the dates have passed.


Yes they were given and SCAR has performed best in trials and in fact some Hand Guns are also about to arrive for testing as Pakistani Army is not happy with Turkish HandGuns they were issued few years ago. Soon all officers as well as Jawans will also be issued new HandGuns


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## TheDarkKnight

Zarvan said:


> Yes they were given and SCAR has performed best in trials and in fact some Hand Guns are also about to arrive for testing as Pakistani Army is not happy with Turkish HandGuns they were issued few years ago. Soon all officers as well as Jawans will also be issued new HandGuns


Lets ignore the handguns. Manuals were distributed now ... but rifle has not been decided? And why just hand out manuals ... soldiers get hands on trained with rifles, not with manuals. Who the hell reads manuals, and that too without the actual rifle in hand? Are they getting a diploma course on SCAR right now with the manuals, yaan ab wo kisi mess ma pakoray dainey ka liye use ho rahay hain?


----------



## Zarvan

TheDarkKnight said:


> Lets ignore the handguns. Manuals were distributed now ... but rifle has not been decided? And why just hand out manuals ... soldiers get hands on trained with rifles, not with manuals. Who the hell reads manuals, and that too without the actual rifle in hand? Are they getting a diploma course on SCAR right now with the manuals, yaan ab wo kisi mess ma pakoray dainey ka liye use ho rahay hain?


Our Army is 6.5 Lakh not every one tests the Rifle Janab


----------



## Ahmet Pasha

Dil belaney ko khayal acha hai ghalib.


TheDarkKnight said:


> People make so many claims that one of them is bound to be true in certain time. A joke goes: One famous pir claimed that he can predict if a woman will have a boy or a girl. He would tell the woman “Beeti aap ka beta hoga zaroor” then would whisper in her motherinlaw “honi eski beti ha ma bas dil rakhnay ka liya beta bool raha hoon”. You can then see someone will always say “pir saab na sahi predict kiya!”
> 
> This forum is full of it; lambii lambiii chooroo, China sa J10, nahi Russia sa Su35, nahi Eurofighter aur saath ma F16 bhi , aur haan dont forget Chineese j20 and j31; this budget year, nahi next wala etc etc keep on revising the dates and estimates - and voila one day something will be bought and these people will then post links of their old posts and take credit. And would shamelessly ignore the 100s of false news and unrealistic estimates they have been providing without credible source. This reflects a certain Psychological issues.


----------



## Arsalan

TheDarkKnight said:


> People make so many claims that one of them is bound to be true in certain time. A joke goes: One famous pir claimed that he can predict if a woman will have a boy or a girl. He would tell the woman “Beeti aap ka beta hoga zaroor” then would whisper in her motherinlaw “honi eski beti ha ma bas dil rakhnay ka liya beta bool raha hoon”. You can then see someone will always say “pir saab na sahi predict kiya!”
> 
> This forum is full of it; lambii lambiii chooroo, China sa J10, nahi Russia sa Su35, nahi Eurofighter aur saath ma F16 bhi , aur haan dont forget Chineese j20 and j31; this budget year, nahi next wala etc etc keep on revising the dates and estimates - and voila one day something will be bought and these people will then post links of their old posts and take credit. And would shamelessly ignore the 100s of false news and unrealistic estimates they have been providing without credible source. This reflects a certain Psychological issues.


Welcome to the club on enlightened souls

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## ZedZeeshan

TheDarkKnight said:


> People make so many claims that one of them is bound to be true in certain time. A joke goes: One famous pir claimed that he can predict if a woman will have a boy or a girl. He would tell the woman “Beeti aap ka beta hoga zaroor” then would whisper in her motherinlaw “honi eski beti ha ma bas dil rakhnay ka liya beta bool raha hoon”. You can then see someone will always say “pir saab na sahi predict kiya!”
> 
> This forum is full of it; lambii lambiii chooroo, China sa J10, nahi Russia sa Su35, nahi Eurofighter aur saath ma F16 bhi , aur haan dont forget Chineese j20 and j31; this budget year, nahi next wala etc etc keep on revising the dates and estimates - and voila one day something will be bought and these people will then post links of their old posts and take credit. And would shamelessly ignore the 100s of false news and unrealistic estimates they have been providing without credible source. This reflects a certain Psychological issues.



I 100% agree with you...


----------



## Zarvan

TheDarkKnight said:


> Lets ignore the handguns. Manuals were distributed now ... but rifle has not been decided? And why just hand out manuals ... soldiers get hands on trained with rifles, not with manuals. Who the hell reads manuals, and that too without the actual rifle in hand? Are they getting a diploma course on SCAR right now with the manuals, yaan ab wo kisi mess ma pakoray dainey ka liye use ho rahay hain?


Things have gotten a little delayed for some unknown reason. All of a sudden POF head has also resigned so even POF guys are busy wondering what the hell is going on.


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## Ahmet Pasha

Raja G...jan deyo


Zarvan said:


> Things have gotten a little delayed for some unknown reason. All of a sudden POF head has also resigned so even POF guys are busy wondering what the hell is going on.


----------



## Zarvan

TheDarkKnight said:


> People make so many claims that one of them is bound to be true in certain time. A joke goes: One famous pir claimed that he can predict if a woman will have a boy or a girl. He would tell the woman “Beeti aap ka beta hoga zaroor” then would whisper in her motherinlaw “honi eski beti ha ma bas dil rakhnay ka liya beta bool raha hoon”. You can then see someone will always say “pir saab na sahi predict kiya!”
> 
> This forum is full of it; lambii lambiii chooroo, China sa J10, nahi Russia sa Su35, nahi Eurofighter aur saath ma F16 bhi , aur haan dont forget Chineese j20 and j31; this budget year, nahi next wala etc etc keep on revising the dates and estimates - and voila one day something will be bought and these people will then post links of their old posts and take credit. And would shamelessly ignore the 100s of false news and unrealistic estimates they have been providing without credible source. This reflects a certain Psychological issues.


I will answer in front of ALLAH How many of my claims were true or not. If you think SU-35 are not being checked or EuroFighter is not being checked in fact several times than ask Air Chief and ask him to keep ALLAH witness and deny this. So please Janab if you have not info or can't get it not my fault



Ahmet Pasha said:


> Raja G...jan deyo


I won't. Something is going on and I am trying to figure out what. A friend talked to some senior Military Guys at National Defense University they said trials are done but first POF will get upgraded than decision will be made.


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## Ahmet Pasha

Raja G Allah da na le k te na karso.


Zarvan said:


> I will answer in front of ALLAH How many of my claims were true or not. If you think SU-35 are not being checked or EuroFighter is not being checked in fact several times than ask Air Chief and ask him to keep ALLAH witness and deny this. So please Janab if you have not info or can't get it not my fault
> 
> 
> I won't. Something is going on and I am trying to figure out what. A friend talked to some senior Military Guys at National Defense University they said trials are done but first POF will get upgraded than decision will be made.


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## Qasim Amin

I really think we should not buy from America. After the latest news its nearly impossible to buy weapons and equipment from them.


----------



## Path-Finder

Strange thy kestrel is not hovering!

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## Basel

MPT-76 overview.






AK-103 review.






SCAR-H review.


----------



## Ahmet Pasha

No ceska zbroovkova and Radom MSBS and no Berretta??? Les ones with highest chances you left em out??


Basel said:


> MPT-76 overview.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AK-103 review.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SCAR-H review.


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## Basel

ARX-200.






CZ Bren 2.











Zavasta M21.


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## Vergennes

Basel said:


> ARX-200.



On a side note,I like his strong Italian accent.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Aur bai rifle waloo any news?? Ye thread to thandi hi ho gai hai


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## Readerdefence

Hi @mods if this thread can be locked until further updates 
Thx


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## Ahmet Pasha

Why such a kill joy???
Such extreme measure on one innocent comment. When so many have made all sorts of outlandish comments on this thread, not fair dude seriously.



Readerdefence said:


> Hi @mods if this thread can be locked until further updates
> Thx


----------



## Zarvan




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## Hassan Guy

dead threads tell no tales...

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## Readerdefence

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Why such a kill joy???
> Such extreme measure on one innocent comment. When so many have made all sorts of outlandish comments on this thread, not fair dude seriously.


Hi mate that comment was not specific for you I’m just a post reader on this thread most of the 
Time so whenever person like me come back in search of something relevant to the thread 
And can’t find anything related with credible links thinks of locking it down until some credible source
Nothing personal just chill and keep on posting 
Thanks


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## Zarvan

Hassan Guy said:


> dead threads tell no tales...


Asked few soldiers they say POF is getting upgraded. New POF boss also has arrived so every one is waiting for the news

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## Path-Finder

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/963392444535574528

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## ali_raza

any news


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## Ahmet Pasha

Same old bro


ali_raza said:


> any news


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## ali_raza

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Same old bro


that is sad


----------



## bananarepublic

did we get new rifles ??


----------



## SQ8

Yar ye batao ke SCAR kab arihi hai?

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## That Guy

bananarepublic said:


> did we get new rifles ??


No, but this was expected. A lot has happened during the last year or so, but this is eventually going to happen sooner rather than later.


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## Mutakalim

Oscar said:


> Yar ye batao ke SCAR kab arihi hai?


Chal pari ha


----------



## Ahmet Pasha

Rastey mein hai??


Gillani88 said:


> Chal pari ha


----------



## Arsalan

Oscar said:


> Yar ye batao ke SCAR kab arihi hai?


Et tu, @Oscar !!


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## Vergennes



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## TheDarkKnight

Oscar said:


> Yar ye batao ke SCAR kab arihi hai?


People are tagging you relentlessly about this, and you yourself are asking the same question now?

@Zarvan bhai kithey hai sadi SCAR?


----------



## Muhammad Omar

They are in love with G-3 just like PAF love for F-Sola


----------



## Zarvan

Their is no love either for Type 56 or G3 I can assure you that


----------



## Thəorətic Muslim

We're on page 367. Dude we get it you like the Scar. 

We've seen the gun for every possible angle. 

I feel like I know it better than I know my own girlfriend.

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## Path-Finder

Thəorətic Muslim said:


> We're on page 367. Dude we get it you like the Scar.
> 
> We've seen the gun for every possible angle.
> 
> I feel like I know it better than I know my own girlfriend.

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## django

Zarvan said:


> Their is no love either for *Type 56* or G3 I can assure you that


Bull, either every Jawan i have talked to is lying or you are sadly mistaken! Kudos Hazrat

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## Zarvan

django said:


> Bull, either every Jawan i have talked to is lying or you are sadly mistaken! Kudos Hazrat


Really than ask Jawans the moment SSG Jawans got M4 they ditched Type 56 just like a Suteli Maan ditches their step children. Trust me the moment a slightly better weapon come you would see Type 56 vanishing like they never existed


----------



## django

Zarvan said:


> Really than ask Jawans the moment SSG Jawans got M4 they ditched Type 56 just like a Suteli Maan ditches their step children. Trust me the moment a slightly better weapon come you would see Type 56 vanishing like they never existed


That is not what I said, of course everyone would love a better weapon yet they are perfectly happy with AK variants.Kudos Hazrat

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Really than ask Jawans the moment SSG Jawans got M4 they ditched Type 56 just like a Suteli Maan ditches their step children. Trust me the moment a slightly better weapon come you would see Type 56 vanishing like they never existed



Derwaish'e Muffakir Hazrat Zarvan forget everything else. Tell us about Habibi SCAR. A new date maybe?

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## Zarvan

django said:


> That is not what I said, of course everyone would love a better weapon yet they are perfectly happy with AK variants.Kudos Hazrat


Really ask them than why are they crying about major jamming issues and I can tell hundred of problems with Jawans and their Type 56 show


----------



## django

Zarvan said:


> Really ask them than why are they crying about major jamming issues and I can tell hundred of problems with Jawans and their Type 56 show


It does not jam it is as robust as they come.

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Derwaish'e Muffakir Hazrat Zarvan forget everything else. Tell us about Habibi SCAR. A new date maybe?


Two months back two officers told friend who is also member here that POF is being upgraded for now trials are over and senior leadership is taking their time in taking final decision. By the way a new HandGun is coming for trials


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## Zarvan

django said:


> It does not jam it is as robust as they come.


It does and massively so does G3


----------



## django

Zarvan said:


> *It does and massively* so does G3


 Dear Hazrat it is renowned for it's ability to sustain fire without jamming, if you think not so then you should not really be commenting on firearms.Kudos Hazrat
@Path-Finder @Game.Invade

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## Zarvan

django said:


> Dear Hazrat it is renowned for it's ability to sustain fire without jamming, if you think not so then you should not really be commenting on firearms.Kudos Hazrat
> @Path-Finder @Game.Invade


Janab sorry it jams a lot. The so called your claim is not true. Type 56 also jams a lot but is better than G3.


----------



## Army research

Zarvan said:


> Janab sorry it jams a lot. The so called your claim is not true. Type 56 also jams a lot but is better than G3.


The G3 and the AK are some of the most reliable, robust all weather guns on the planet and in history.

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Two months back two officers told friend who is also member here that POF is being upgraded for now trials are over and senior leadership is taking their time in taking final decision. By the way a new HandGun is coming for trials



Another handgun trial? one hand gun trial was done along with the rifle trial 3 years ago!



django said:


> Dear Hazrat it is renowned for it's ability to sustain fire without jamming, if you think not so then you should not really be commenting on firearms.Kudos Hazrat
> @Path-Finder @Game.Invade



They are beyond their service date and need replacement now! Newer rifles will have far better characteristics than G3 & AK47 variant.

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Another handgun trial? one hand gun trial was done along with the rifle trial 3 years ago!
> 
> 
> 
> They are beyond their service date and need replacement now! Newer rifles will have far better characteristics than G3 & AK47 variant.


Nope Hand Gun trials got delayed and our boys are also not very happy with Turkish HandGuns they are using. So new handgun will arive soon for testing



Army research said:


> The G3 and the AK are some of the most reliable, robust all weather guns on the planet and in history.


No they are not Type 56 is better than G3 when it comes to jamming but not like you described


----------



## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Nope Hand Gun trials got delayed and our boys are also not very happy with Turkish HandGuns they are using. So new handgun will arive soon for testing
> 
> 
> No they are not Type 56 is better than G3 when it comes to jamming but not like you described



There again lies the issue the Turkish gun adopted was a clone of CZ 75. Why not just get CZ 75 from CZ because the CZ 75 has been vastly improved and it easily keeps with with polymer guns like Glock!


----------



## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> There again lies the issue the Turkish gun adopted was a clone of CZ 75. Why not just get CZ 75 from CZ because the CZ 75 has been vastly improved and it easily keeps with with polymer guns like Glock!


The HandGun I know is coming is not from CZ


----------



## Army research

Zarvan said:


> Nope Hand Gun trials got delayed and our boys are also not very happy with Turkish HandGuns they are using. So new handgun will arive soon for testing
> 
> 
> No they are not Type 56 is better than G3 when it comes to jamming but not like you described


Have you used the weapons ? Have you researched on them ? Have you met people in person who have used them in live combat ? Have you ever seen high intensity firing tests being carried out on them ? Heck have you even seen the videos of marines under mud with g3's ? SSG uses 56 and M4, depends on the situation which one they will use.

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> The HandGun I know is coming is not from CZ


no the Turkish gun adopted is a clone of CZ-75. that is what I am saying.

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## Zarvan

Army research said:


> Have you used the weapons ? Have you researched on them ? Have you met people in person who have used them in live combat ? Have you ever seen high intensity firing tests being carried out on them ? Heck have you even seen the videos of marines under mud with g3's ? SSG uses 56 and M4, depends on the situation which one they will use.


Yes I have Type G3 has massive jamming issues. Also Type 56 but better than G3. SSG was using Type 56 and in training but now in operations SSG is using M4. Also even LCB many who have not gotten M4 use M4 in operations and fights


----------



## Bossman

Zarvan said:


> Yes I have Type G3 has massive jamming issues. Also Type 56 but better than G3. SSG was using Type 56 and in training but now in operations SSG is using M4. Also even LCB many who have not gotten M4 use M4 in operations and fights


G3 does not have jaming issues, you are wrong. One of the most reliable and accurate weapon. Very suitable for Pakistani environment. The issue is size, weight and inability to add attachments otherwise it can be in service for another 50 year.

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## django

Path-Finder said:


> They are beyond their service date and need replacement now! Newer rifles will have far better characteristics than G3 & AK47 variant.


 True of course their are better options yet what Hazrat is saying about issues of reliability and aversion for type 56 is from my own conversations with jawans who have seen combat against TTP and Ganagdeshis in LOC, simply not accurate.Kudos bro

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## AMG_12

django said:


> Dear Hazrat it is renowned for it's ability to sustain fire without jamming, if you think not so then you should not really be commenting on firearms.Kudos Hazrat
> @Path-Finder @Game.Invade


As our friend is quite popular for his claims when it comes to rifles, war in FATA was fought and won by the "jamming" rifles. The replacement isn't because the rifles have issues but mainly because they've reached their service life and an upgrade wasn't deemed feasible despite several attempts. The Turkish military too used G3 and just recently began it's replacement yet they're still widely used.

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## Path-Finder

django said:


> True of course their are better options yet what Hazrat is saying about issues of reliability and aversion for type 56 is from my own conversations with jawans who have seen combat against TTP and Ganagdeshis in LOC, simply not accurate.Kudos bro



The new AR rifles are far more reliable than AK47 type of rifles and that is due to the evolution in making them better! Gone are the days when AK47 was the pinnacle in reliability. Even the Russians are now working to replace the 47 model of rifles. 

Type 56 was alway a stop gap measure and its time to put it to rest. Same thing with G3. 

They are now dinosaurs but they served very well.

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## Path-Finder

I think this interesting concept for the current AK rifles in use!


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## Zarvan




----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

Path-Finder said:


> The new AR rifles are far more reliable than AK47 type of rifles and that is due to the evolution in making them better! Gone are the days when AK47 was the pinnacle in reliability. Even the Russians are now working to replace the 47 model of rifles.
> 
> Type 56 was alway a stop gap measure and its time to put it to rest. Same thing with G3.
> 
> They are now dinosaurs but they served very well.


Russians got AK-12s and whatnot...

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## Zarvan




----------



## Nahid

gyes what about turkis army indiginous weapons.


----------



## Arsalan

django said:


> Dear Hazrat it is renowned for it's ability to sustain fire without jamming, if you think not so then you should not really be commenting on firearms.Kudos Hazrat
> @Path-Finder @Game.Invade


You know 5hit about guns you moron!
G3 jams, some times it starts crying and weeping too! As far as Type 56 goes, it is always asking to go to playground and asking for cotton candies, it is a fking stupid dumb gun and as soon as SCAR arrives you may see Pakistan army retiring all their guns, including artillery guns and some tanks too, in your face, it jams and it marmalade - FCUKU! 





@Zarvan choro yaar in ko, bachy hein nadan hein, samjty nahi how much you know and how many friends you have on facebook wagera to get you all the inside stories! I believe you  In paglon k munh na laga kro yaar ap!

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## django

Arsalan said:


> You know 5hit about guns you moron!
> G3 jams, some times it starts crying and weeping too! As far as Type 56 goes, it is always asking to go to playground and asking for cotton candies, it is a fking stupid dumb gun and as soon as SCAR arrives you may see Pakistan army retiring all their guns, including artillery guns and some tanks too, in your face, it jams and it marmalade - FCUKU!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Zarvan choro yaar in ko, bachy hein nadan hein, samjty nahi how much you know and how many friends you have on facebook wagera to get you all the inside stories! I believe you  In paglon k munh na laga kro yaar ap!


----------



## Path-Finder

very very interesting rifle design!

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## YeBeWarned

Arsalan said:


> You know 5hit about guns you moron!
> G3 jams, some times it starts crying and weeping too! As far as Type 56 goes, it is always asking to go to playground and asking for cotton candies, it is a fking stupid dumb gun and as soon as SCAR arrives you may see Pakistan army retiring all their guns, including artillery guns and some tanks too, in your face, it jams and it marmalade - FCUKU!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Zarvan choro yaar in ko, bachy hein nadan hein, samjty nahi how much you know and how many friends you have on facebook wagera to get you all the inside stories! I believe you  In paglon k munh na laga kro yaar ap!



The sarcasm in this post is very strong ..

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## Gryphon

@Path-Finder @django @Starlord @Arsalan

Ceska Zbrojovka's new catalogue reveals that the CZ BREN 2 (7.62x51mm) uses a *25*-round magazine

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## Path-Finder

Gryphon said:


> @Path-Finder @django @Starlord @Arsalan
> 
> Ceska Zbrojovka's new catalogue reveals that the CZ BREN 2 (7.62x51mm) uses a *25*-round magazine



Just to preemptively put it out there! SCAR was the best rifle in trials



Gryphon said:


> @Path-Finder @django @Starlord @Arsalan
> 
> Ceska Zbrojovka's new catalogue reveals that the CZ BREN 2 (7.62x51mm) uses a *25*-round magazine



That means it's just one frame and changes made to barrel, bolt carrier assembly and magazine well.

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## Khagan1923

Has any rifle officialy been chosen?

If not, would it not make for Pakistan to test out the MPT-76, MPT-55 and MPT-55K? Produce it for PAF in Pakistan if the infrastructure is there. I think it would benefit both countries and plus with Turkey you guys would have country who you can rely on. Just my thoughts.

Or maybe a Chinese option?


----------



## razgriz19

Zarvan said:


> Their is no love either for Type 56 or G3 I can assure you that


Yeah but you also assured all of us that Scar was coming. Now where is it?


----------



## Zarvan

razgriz19 said:


> Yeah but you also assured all of us that Scar was coming. Now where is it?


I said SCAR was best in the trials and I still stand by it because that is what happened in trials. SCAR was better than other Rifles but what is happening as of now even I have no clue because now trials are over and it's on Bajwa and few other Generals to decide. Until the trials were going I managed to get information but now it's complete silence even Army Officers are busy making guesses. Most agree that POF up gradation is causing the delay


----------



## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> I said SCAR was best in the trials and I still stand by it because that is what happened in trials. SCAR was better than other Rifles but what is happening as of now even I have no clue because now trials are over and it's on Bajwa and few other Generals to decide. Until the trials were going I managed to get information but now it's complete silence even Army Officers are busy making guesses. Most agree that POF up gradation is causing the delay



can you backup your claims with something more solid!

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> can you backup your claims with something more solid!


If you want me to bring official papers to show to you no I won't bring but I tasked at least 7 guys who are from Military families and meet Army Officers on daily bases and most of these 7 guys don't know each other and all brought same answer that SCAR was leading followed by Beretta although Beretta had slight accuracy issue. One friend even managed to visit the spot where one unit was testing rifles and he is supporter of MPT-76 but even he was told about SCAR being the best one. Even if I some how get original papers I won't post here because I am not interested in ending up dead. Few friends who are member here and study in NDU even they talked to officers and they have same thing to say about SCAR


----------



## SQ8

SCAR aagayi maidan mein ho jamalo!

Yet somehow the other officials refer tk the Beretta as the choice that is going in all things considered as an overall package


----------



## fatman17

Oscar said:


> SCAR aagayi maidan mein ho jamalo!
> 
> Yet somehow the other officials refer tk the Beretta as the choice that is going in all things considered as an overall package


Italians have a strong defence relationship with Pakistan, not so the belgians.

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## SQ8

fatman17 said:


> Italians have a strong defence relationship with Pakistan, not so the belgians.


Additionally, the Italians bring other offers and opportunities via Leonardo , SELEX and others.. all the Belgians have is chocolate after the SCAR.

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## The-Hack

CZ-802 Bren-2 is good enough. Rate of fire is higher as compare to other guns which is 760 or 805 whereas other guns have the capacity to fire 600 rounds per minute
but interestingly most members vote for other riffle ............. strange







Specified dimensions may vary according to design and configuration.

*Weight* 2,76 Kg
*Caliber* 5,56x45 NATO (7")
*Magazine capacity* 30
*Frame* Aluminum alloy
*Width* 80/104 mm
*Barrel length* 8" - 207 mm 11" - 280 mm 14" - 357 mm
*Overall length* 8" - 490/677-725 mm 11" - 570/755-800 mm 14" - 650/833-877 mm

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## MastanKhan

Oscar said:


> Additionally, the Italians bring other offers and opportunities via Leonardo , SELEX and others.. all the Belgians have is chocolate after the SCAR.



Hi,

I will take the Italians over the Belgians any day---.

And who can compete with the Pizza---Pasta---Lasagna etc etc etc---

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## fitpOsitive

Oscar said:


> Additionally, the Italians bring other offers and opportunities via Leonardo , SELEX and others.. all the Belgians have is chocolate after the SCAR.


What are those opportunities? Will you please put some light on it? Any other system they offer besides? I dont think they will provide 100% tot? And is that so then why buy a 15 years old design? Your comments please.


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Oscar said:


> Additionally, the Italians bring other offers and opportunities via Leonardo , SELEX and others.. all the Belgians have is chocolate after the SCAR.


Member of the Eurofighter Consortium too ... just saying...

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## SQ8

fitpOsitive said:


> What are those opportunities? Will you please put some light on it? Any other system they offer besides? I dont think they will provide 100% tot? And is that so then why buy a 15 years old design? Your comments please.


I just named them.. unless you did not bother to read past opportunities.
Pleaze read into Leonardo and SELEX as a start; then find me an equivalent belgian Company.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

BTW ... via the ATR-72 MPA the PN is getting those Leonardo AESA radars (i.e. Seaspray). That's a sign that the UK has given export permits to Leonardo to sell Selex's products to Pakistan. Not a small feat.

Alan Warnes:

“It will have a fully missionised system with torpedos and water bombs, it has a typical sensor suite including a Seaspray 7300E radar for long range detection, localisation and classification. A Star Safire III EO/IR system will provide the short range classification and imaging. We also included some ESM systems [supplied by the customer from Electronica] and long and short range detection of threats, classification and localisation. Along that comes self-protection against infra-red radar or laser threats; there are ELINT components as well. It will be certified as per Pakistan’s standards.”

http://warnesysworld.com/pakistan-navy-atr72mpa-fly-october/​

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## Armchair-General

Both the beretta and cz are offered in multi caliber including 7.62x39mm in ak 47 mags.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2012/06/18/beretta-arx160-in-7-62x39mm/
https://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=84617.0

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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> I said SCAR was best in the trials and I still stand by it because that is what happened in trials. SCAR was better than other Rifles but what is happening as of now even I have no clue because now trials are over and it's on Bajwa and few other Generals to decide. Until the trials were going I managed to get information but now it's complete silence even Army Officers are busy making guesses. Most agree that POF up gradation is causing the delay


Oh, even YOU DO NOT HAVE A CLUE!!
Thats surely a catastrophe! FB ka password bhol gya ha bhai ko?


On a serious note, as it was explained earlier, there is MUCH more to a defense military procurement than the trials, thankfully, majority of us here understand that.



Oscar said:


> Additionally, the Italians bring other offers and opportunities via Leonardo , SELEX and others.. all the Belgians have is chocolate after the SCAR.


Exactly!!



fitpOsitive said:


> What are those opportunities? Will you please put some light on it? Any other system they offer besides? I dont think they will provide 100% tot? And is that so then why buy a 15 years old design? Your comments please.


ALL companies involved were only selected once that part was cleared and agreed with. All of these come with complete ToT. The next step is:

License to export
Becoming part of supply chain
It is highly likely that this too will be offered by all participants, especially by CZ given their status!

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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> Oh, even YOU DO NOT HAVE A CLUE!!
> Thats surely a catastrophe! FB ka password bhol gya ha bhai ko?
> 
> 
> On a serious note, as it was explained earlier, there is MUCH more to a defense military procurement than the trials, thankfully, majority of us here understand that.
> 
> 
> Exactly!!
> 
> 
> ALL companies involved were only selected once that part was cleared and agreed with. All of these come with complete ToT. The next step is:
> 
> License to export
> Becoming part of supply chain
> It is highly likely that this too will be offered by all participants, especially by CZ given their status!


Because it's now decision of top 4 to 5 Generals I have no access to them when it was in testing phase I had friends who even visited cantts and places where the Rifles were testing I even posted one picture of Rifle testing but now I have no clue at all. Trials are over SCAR was on top followed by Beretta


----------



## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> If you want me to bring official papers to show to you no I won't bring but I tasked at least 7 guys who are from Military families and meet Army Officers on daily bases and most of these 7 guys don't know each other and all brought same answer that SCAR was leading followed by Beretta although Beretta had slight accuracy issue. One friend even managed to visit the spot where one unit was testing rifles and he is supporter of MPT-76 but even he was told about SCAR being the best one. Even if I some how get original papers I won't post here because I am not interested in ending up dead. Few friends who are member here and study in NDU even they talked to officers and they have same thing to say about SCAR



Until you can bring something more solid which is not Chinese whispers. Then don't make claims you cannot backup! We know you feel moist at the thought of a SCAR but the rest of us need something more than _"I tasked at least 7 guys who are from Military families and meet Army Officers on daily bases and most of these 7 guys don't know each other and all brought same answer that SCAR was leading" _That has no credibility in the world. I hope I made is easy for you to understand Hazrat.



Oscar said:


> Additionally, the Italians bring other offers and opportunities via Leonardo , SELEX and others.. all the Belgians have is chocolate after the SCAR.



I said the same thing 2 years ago but no one paid any attention to it


----------



## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Until you can bring something more solid which is not Chinese whispers. Then don't make claims you cannot backup! We know you feel moist at the thought of a SCAR but the rest of us need something more than _"I tasked at least 7 guys who are from Military families and meet Army Officers on daily bases and most of these 7 guys don't know each other and all brought same answer that SCAR was leading" _That has no credibility in the world. I hope I made is easy for you to understand Hazrat.
> 
> 
> 
> I said the same thing 2 years ago but no one paid any attention to it


Dude in media also it's always sources 75 % of the time it's sources not some papers so if you have delusion that any other thing can come specially from Military that they would reveal the thing on paper that you are being delusional and only would make sure that this forum gets shut down for good. One guy ended up posting the letter that Army is going to begin trials under the supervision of Major General that letter was deleted by forum MODS in no time because no one is interested in getting killed. So it's sources and I am more than sure about my sources, you just want to remain denial mode because you have issue with SCAR Rifle your problem not mine. SCAR was leading the trials followed by Beretta. In 7.62 x 39 category I don't have clear picture but chances that we may end up dropping the caliber are increasing


----------



## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Dude in media also it's always sources 75 % of the time it's sources not some papers so if you have delusion that any other thing can come specially from Military that they would reveal the thing on paper that you are being delusional and only would make sure that this forum gets shut down for good. One guy ended up posting the letter that Army is going to begin trials under the supervision of Major General that letter was deleted by forum MODS in no time because no one is interested in getting killed. So it's sources and I am more than sure about my sources, you just want to remain denial mode because you have issue with SCAR Rifle your problem not mine. SCAR was leading the trials followed by Beretta. In 7.62 x 39 category I don't have clear picture but chances that we may end up dropping the caliber are increasing



a lengthy response does not give your self credibility! If you have no credible proof then say so it will not lower your stature but making tall claims which have no feet will harm your status! 

I have no problems but I believe SCAR will only ever see a limited purchase for select few roles and nothing else.

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## Super Falcon

2 years have gone for choosing one damn gun in this time and age my mind blows

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> a lengthy response does not give your self credibility! If you have no credible proof then say so it will not lower your stature but making tall claims which have no feet will harm your status!
> 
> I have no problems but I believe SCAR will only ever see a limited purchase for select few roles and nothing else.


My proof is credible as hell. I talked to Military Guys so did my friends one even managed to visit the area where Rifles were being tested and I even posted the picture your problem is you don't want to face the fact and want to live in a delusional bubble so not my problem. All contacts with soldiers have provided same result that SCAR was on top and followed by Beretta you don't want to believe not my problem


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> My proof is credible as hell. I talked to Military Guys so did my friends one even managed to visit the area where Rifles were being tested and I even posted the picture your problem is you don't want to face the fact and want to live in a delusional bubble so not my problem. All contacts with soldiers have provided same result that SCAR was on top and followed by Beretta you don't want to believe not my problem



again you are sinking to making personal attack which weakens your credibility but it matters not. It is not about what I believe, but your words carrying any weight. most people are now questioning your "sources" Hazrat. You led a rampant crusade for the SCAR and 3 years on it has led to nothing more than a fart in the wind.

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## Maarkhoor

@Zarvan @Path-Finder 

As per best info Pakistan not going to adopt one type of rifle, expect more AK series and some limited number of either SCAR or Turkish rifle.

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## Zarvan

Maarkhoor said:


> @Zarvan @Path-Finder
> 
> As per best info Pakistan not going to adopt one type of rifle, expect more AK series and some limited number of either SCAR or Turkish rifle.


One Rifle will be selected to replace G3 and one to replace Type 56 but if we are not satisfied with Rifles in trials for 7.62 x 39 we may drop the caliber as SSG pretty has already stopped using it and may go for another Rifle series with both 7.62 X 51 and 5.56 X 45 caliber in it. Which ever Rifle will be selected no it won't be in few numbers both will come in full numbers to replace Type 56 and G3.

@Path-Finder Please feel free to live in your bubble 

@Horus


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## fitpOsitive

Maarkhoor said:


> @Zarvan @Path-Finder
> 
> As per best info Pakistan not going to adopt one type of rifle, expect more AK series and some limited number of either SCAR or Turkish rifle.


Newer AK series are good, everything wise. I know few people will kill me for my comments, but let me speak the truth and be "Shaheed".

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## Maarkhoor

fitpOsitive said:


> Newer AK series are good, everything wise. I know few people will kill me for my comments, but let me speak the truth and be "Shaheed".


SCAR is very expensive rifle and service life is also limited due to use of carbon fiber along fused with steel and with the passage of time / usage it became loose and you have to replace parts or full rifle. It is not like AKs rifle for life.

Instead we should adopt newer AKs license produce at home along with start a project to develop or derive a rifle at home. Replacing million rifles with purchased one not a wise decision neither we have budget.

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## fitpOsitive

Maarkhoor said:


> SCAR is very expensive rifle and service life is also limited due to use of carbon fiber along fused with steel and with the passage of time / usage it became loose and you have to replace parts or full rifle. It is not like AKs rifle for life.
> 
> Instead we should adopt newer AKs license produce at home along with start a project to develop or derive a rifle at home. Replacing million rifles with purchased one not a wise decision neither we have budget.


The wear-out factor. Yup.

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## Maarkhoor

fitpOsitive said:


> The wear-out factor. Yup.


Check the price tag.
FN SCAR Price

*Item* *Title Click Headers to Sort* *Price*
752914511 FNH FN SCAR 16S 16 FDE 5.56 223 NIB 98501 *$2,899.99 *
751590566 FN SCAR 17S 7.62 NATO FACTORY REFURB *$2,525.00 *
752859021 FN Herstal SCAR 16 FDE 223/5.56 NIB 223 SCAR *$1,850.00 *
753218014 FN FNH SCAR 17S 7.62 NATO / .308 NIB *$2,950.00 *

AK 103 rifle available at USD240 only.






Not a bad rifle at this price.

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## Thunder.Storm

https://goo.gl/images/YCbC6N


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## Sine Nomine

Zarvan said:


> In 7.62 x 39 category I don't have clear picture but chances that we may end up dropping the caliber are increasing


Almost a Million rifles of 7.62x39mm caliber along with depots full of ammo are in active use Hazrat.Pakistan may end up dropping x51Nato caliber rifle,but no way x39 is going to be dropped.Regarding Trials,for time being that issue is dead.


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## Zarvan

Maarkhoor said:


> Check the price tag.
> FN SCAR Price
> 
> *Item* *Title Click Headers to Sort* *Price*
> 752914511 FNH FN SCAR 16S 16 FDE 5.56 223 NIB 98501 *$2,899.99 *
> 751590566 FN SCAR 17S 7.62 NATO FACTORY REFURB *$2,525.00 *
> 752859021 FN Herstal SCAR 16 FDE 223/5.56 NIB 223 SCAR *$1,850.00 *
> 753218014 FN FNH SCAR 17S 7.62 NATO / .308 NIB *$2,950.00 *
> 
> AK 103 rifle available at USD240 only.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not a bad rifle at this price.



Armed Forces Guys didn't woke up one day and decided to go for trials without checking the price. They knew price of each rifle before they invited them for trials. So the thing is over all thing. Price is known and we are ready to pay the price for the Rifle which does best



Maarkhoor said:


> Check the price tag.
> FN SCAR Price
> 
> *Item* *Title Click Headers to Sort* *Price*
> 752914511 FNH FN SCAR 16S 16 FDE 5.56 223 NIB 98501 *$2,899.99 *
> 751590566 FN SCAR 17S 7.62 NATO FACTORY REFURB *$2,525.00 *
> 752859021 FN Herstal SCAR 16 FDE 223/5.56 NIB 223 SCAR *$1,850.00 *
> 753218014 FN FNH SCAR 17S 7.62 NATO / .308 NIB *$2,950.00 *
> 
> AK 103 rifle available at USD240 only.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not a bad rifle at this price.


Only issue is it failed during endurance test


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## Hexciter

Zarvan said:


> Price is known and we are ready to pay the price for the Rifle which does best


Are you sure about payment?
Money is always a very but very important issue!
USA don’t allow her soldiers ditching their M4’s even they are a SOCOM member & Germany looking for a cheaper alternative to HK416. 
P.S. Do not answer me with a patriotic response!


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## Zarvan

Hexciter said:


> Are you sure about payment?
> Money is always a very but very important issue!
> USA don’t allow her soldiers ditching their M4’s even they are a SOCOM member & Germany looking for a cheaper alternative to HK416.
> P.S. Do not answer me with a patriotic response!


We invited the Rifles only after studying every thing. Pakistan Army until few years back was not ready to have any trials not because they liked G3 or Type 56 but they were not sure about the money the day they got sured and considered all other factors than they went for Rifle trials


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## Hexciter

Zarvan said:


> We invited the Rifles only after studying every thing. Pakistan Army until few years back was not ready to have any trials not because they liked G3 or Type 56 but they were not sure about the money the day they got sured and considered all other factors than they went for Rifle trials



If the money have been allocated and the winner have been chosen, why they are waiting for?


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## Zarvan

Hexciter said:


> If the money have been allocated and the winner have been chosen, why they are waiting for?


SCAR was best in trials but we haven't announced any winner what I have gathered through talking to officers is that they were most happy with SCAR and this is what the told senior leadership but now it is on senior leadership to decide matters. Latest information is some handguns also are coming for testing


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## fitpOsitive

Maarkhoor said:


> Check the price tag.
> FN SCAR Price
> 
> *Item* *Title Click Headers to Sort* *Price*
> 752914511 FNH FN SCAR 16S 16 FDE 5.56 223 NIB 98501 *$2,899.99 *
> 751590566 FN SCAR 17S 7.62 NATO FACTORY REFURB *$2,525.00 *
> 752859021 FN Herstal SCAR 16 FDE 223/5.56 NIB 223 SCAR *$1,850.00 *
> 753218014 FN FNH SCAR 17S 7.62 NATO / .308 NIB *$2,950.00 *
> 
> AK 103 rifle available at USD240 only.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not a bad rifle at this price.


I am just concentrating on gun, just gun(no other benefits beside guns). I strongly recommend AK. I am posting it for second time(sorry).

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## Path-Finder

Hexciter said:


> If the money have been allocated and the winner have been chosen, why they are waiting for?



The answer will always be SCAR was the best rifle in trials . To which only he has a source to and no one else. The credibility of such a source is an open ended discussion.



Zarvan said:


> One Rifle will be selected to replace G3 and one to replace Type 56 but if we are not satisfied with Rifles in trials for 7.62 x 39 we may drop the caliber as SSG pretty has already stopped using it and may go for another Rifle series with both 7.62 X 51 and 5.56 X 45 caliber in it. Which ever Rifle will be selected no it won't be in few numbers both will come in full numbers to replace Type 56 and G3.
> 
> @Path-Finder Please feel free to live in your bubble
> 
> @Horus



Your bubble has produced nothing more than SCAR related fantasies Hazrat @Zarvan and wasted our time for 3 years and have the cheek to tell me I am delusional? . But each to their own!



Maarkhoor said:


> @Zarvan @Path-Finder
> 
> As per best info Pakistan not going to adopt one type of rifle, expect more AK series and some limited number of either SCAR or Turkish rifle.



SCAR was the best rifle in trials . Anything else is a delusional bubble.

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## sohailbarki




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## PAR 5

Serious Time and Money (especially from rifle makers) has been wasted in these so called trials. From day 1 I had mentioned that these trials will lead no where and here we are still using G3 and Type56 from China. Enough said


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## sohailbarki

Old vs New


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## Zarvan

PAR 5 said:


> Serious Time and Money (especially from rifle makers) has been wasted in these so called trials. From day 1 I had mentioned that these trials will lead no where and here we are still using G3 and Type56 from China. Enough said


Trials have led us if you were thinking in two years G3 and Type 56 will vanish than you had wrong thinking not Army by the way Hand Guns are also coming for trials


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## Path-Finder




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## PAR 5

Zarvan said:


> Trials have led us if you were thinking in two years G3 and Type 56 will vanish than you had wrong thinking not Army by the way Hand Guns are also coming for trials



Ramble On Dude!


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## django

Zarvan said:


> *SCAR was best rifle in trials* but we haven't announced any winner what I have gathered through talking to officers is that they were most happy with SCAR and this is what the told senior leadership but now it is on senior leadership to decide matters. Latest information is some handguns also are coming for testing




@Path-Finder


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## Mumm-Ra

Yaar is say behtar tha k Dara say koi rifle banwa letay..Aewae poori qoum ko 2 saal tk khwar kya hu hai..

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## Muhammad Omar

Xlvee01 said:


> Yaar is say behtar tha k Dara say koi rifle banwa letay..Aewae poori qoum ko 2 saal tk khwar kya hu hai..



2 and a half years 

Qayamat aajani hai Rifle Nahi aani  J.K

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## Zarvan

Xlvee01 said:


> Yaar is say behtar tha k Dara say koi rifle banwa letay..Aewae poori qoum ko 2 saal tk khwar kya hu hai..


That would have taken even more time than this I don't what is going on but latest news is few handguns are also arriving for trials


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## Gallium Nitride

AKs are very robust and easy to operate and maintain, I think personally AK-103 should be the replacement as it's also cheaper

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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> That would have taken even more time than this I don't what is going on but latest news is few handguns are also arriving for trials


Its not latest dear and neither it is huge!
Handguns have been under consideration for over a year and you talking about it like a parrot is nothing new either!
BTW, handgun thing wont be "for whole army" thing. You might check this with FIS department!


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## Tank131

So at the risk of being told to go back through the entire 373 page thread, can someone just give 2 paragraph update on what the current status is. Last I had read the Bren was selected and CZ had signed some MoU with POF, not sure what happened after that.

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## Path-Finder

Tank131 said:


> So at the risk of being told to go back through the entire 373 page thread, can someone just give 2 paragraph update on what the current status is. Last I had read the Bren was selected and CZ had signed some MoU with POF, not sure what happened after that.



Other than minstrels singing lore about the FN SCAR. A rifle made for US SOCOM doomed is still strong on the thread.


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## khanasifm

It’s time to close this thread

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## PAR 5

Tank131 said:


> So at the risk of being told to go back through the entire 373 page thread, can someone just give 2 paragraph update on what the current status is. Last I had read the Bren was selected and CZ had signed some MoU with POF, not sure what happened after that.



Nothing has happened as I predicted long ago except for perhaps in the imagination of one or two dudes here. This rifle replacement chapter for the time being is now closed.

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## Amaa'n

Arsalan said:


> Its not latest dear and neither it is huge!
> Handguns have been under consideration for over a year and you talking about it like a parrot is nothing new either!
> BTW, handgun thing wont be "for whole army" thing. You might check this with FIS department!


i honestly don'y understand the military leadership, either they are dumb when it comes to procurement, or they just don't want to do it, or perhaps they didn't get the kick backs as they intended.......they have gone through these handgun trails about gazillion times now (actually twice) .....they had the best of the best hand guns taking part in the trails, yet they did not even pick any.....they did the trails in 2010, 2012.....and now back again?
in 2011 they checked Grand power k100, and what a gun it is....they had berretas and few others to test....nothing was selected....then they shut that down.....in 2012 they started again.....by 2013 Daudsons joined the party with local build weapon......that went cold and without anything concrete few numbers of Sarsilmaz b6 were procured for LCB, & ISI personnel ...... then somehow, ISI started issuing S & W M&P 9 to their officers......these folks need to make up their mind......PoF got dumb and went ahead to make Beretta 92fs ---they got that made from Badar & Brothers Peshawar - an arms manufacturer in Peshawar----

they need to have a clear strategy ----think it through, don;t waste funds .....

P.S: this was my come back rant...!!!!!
and finally my 5.56 license came through.....looking to buy the gun now, confused whether to go for AK or AR platform....it is this - this one needs to be ordered - get all original parts and have them modified for a 5.56 round rather than 5.45 / .222






vs
this is the one that i have already seen.....

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## Zarvan

balixd said:


> i honestly don'y understand the military leadership, either they are dumb when it comes to procurement, or they just don't want to do it, or perhaps they didn't get the kick backs as they intended.......they have gone through these handgun trails about gazillion times now (actually twice) .....they had the best of the best hand guns taking part in the trails, yet they did not even pick any.....they did the trails in 2010, 2012.....and now back again?
> in 2011 they checked Grand power k100, and what a gun it is....they had berretas and few others to test....nothing was selected....then they shut that down.....in 2012 they started again.....by 2013 Daudsons joined the party with local build weapon......that went cold and without anything concrete few numbers of Sarsilmaz b6 were procured for LCB, & ISI personnel ...... then somehow, ISI started issuing S & W M&P 9 to their officers......these folks need to make up their mind......PoF got dumb and went ahead to make Beretta 92fs ---they got that made from Badar & Brothers Peshawar - an arms manufacturer in Peshawar----
> 
> they need to have a clear strategy ----think it through, don;t waste funds .....
> 
> P.S: this was my come back rant...!!!!!
> and finally my 5.56 license came through.....looking to buy the gun now, confused whether to go for AK or AR platform....it is this - this one needs to be ordered - get all original parts and have them modified for a 5.56 round rather than 5.45 / .222
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vs
> this is the one that i have already seen.....
> View attachment 459269


Thing is now their is total silence two friends studying at NDU asked Army Officers they said POF is getting upgraded and than something may happen although they were also making guesses. But let see what happens


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## django

Zarvan said:


> Thing is now their is total silence two friends studying at NDU asked Army Officers they said POF is getting upgraded and than something may happen although they were also making guesses. But let see what happens


So I take it that the army has stopped issuing SCAR manuals to infantry men!

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## Zarvan

django said:


> So I take it that the army has stopped issuing SCAR manuals to infantry men!


Manuals were issued not too all but lot of soldiers. Even today I got few pictures of SCAR some where in Pakistan but have sent to a friend for comment


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## django

Zarvan said:


> Manuals were issued not too all but lot of soldiers. *Even today I got few pictures of SCAR some where in Pakistan *but have sent to a friend for comment


Pics from trials ONLY!


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## Zarvan

django said:


> Pics from trials ONLY!


I am not sure the pics are of trials or what is going on waiting for the answer

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## Kompromat

Expect an update around July.

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## Path-Finder

balixd said:


> i honestly don'y understand the military leadership, either they are dumb when it comes to procurement, or they just don't want to do it, or perhaps they didn't get the kick backs as they intended.......they have gone through these handgun trails about gazillion times now (actually twice) .....they had the best of the best hand guns taking part in the trails, yet they did not even pick any.....they did the trails in 2010, 2012.....and now back again?
> in 2011 they checked Grand power k100, and what a gun it is....they had berretas and few others to test....nothing was selected....then they shut that down.....in 2012 they started again.....by 2013 Daudsons joined the party with local build weapon......that went cold and without anything concrete few numbers of Sarsilmaz b6 were procured for LCB, & ISI personnel ...... then somehow, ISI started issuing S & W M&P 9 to their officers......these folks need to make up their mind......PoF got dumb and went ahead to make Beretta 92fs ---they got that made from Badar & Brothers Peshawar - an arms manufacturer in Peshawar----
> 
> they need to have a clear strategy ----think it through, don;t waste funds .....
> 
> P.S: this was my come back rant...!!!!!
> and finally my 5.56 license came through.....looking to buy the gun now, confused whether to go for AK or AR platform....it is this - this one needs to be ordered - get all original parts and have them modified for a 5.56 round rather than 5.45 / .222
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vs
> this is the one that i have already seen.....
> View attachment 459269



Talk about Gun p0rn. I have a question lets suppose you get the M4 which is the king or emperor of modularity. Then are modular device available to kit out your M4?

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## DESERT FIGHTER

balixd said:


> i honestly don'y understand the military leadership, either they are dumb when it comes to procurement, or they just don't want to do it, or perhaps they didn't get the kick backs as they intended.......they have gone through these handgun trails about gazillion times now (actually twice) .....they had the best of the best hand guns taking part in the trails, yet they did not even pick any.....they did the trails in 2010, 2012.....and now back again?
> in 2011 they checked Grand power k100, and what a gun it is....they had berretas and few others to test....nothing was selected....then they shut that down.....in 2012 they started again.....by 2013 Daudsons joined the party with local build weapon......that went cold and without anything concrete few numbers of Sarsilmaz b6 were procured for LCB, & ISI personnel ...... then somehow, ISI started issuing S & W M&P 9 to their officers......these folks need to make up their mind......PoF got dumb and went ahead to make Beretta 92fs ---they got that made from Badar & Brothers Peshawar - an arms manufacturer in Peshawar----
> 
> they need to have a clear strategy ----think it through, don;t waste funds .....
> 
> P.S: this was my come back rant...!!!!!
> and finally my 5.56 license came through.....looking to buy the gun now, confused whether to go for AK or AR platform....it is this - this one needs to be ordered - get all original parts and have them modified for a 5.56 round rather than 5.45 / .222
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vs
> this is the one that i have already seen.....
> View attachment 459269


How much does a krink or AR cost?


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## Amaa'n

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> How much does a krink or AR cost?


Depends on the money you can throw, a complete local can be had for 35k, while an AK platform with russian receiver and stuff can be had for 130k.....if you are looking at AR, then same goes for it.....but they are a bit expensive.....lower and upper lower made with bcg and barrel,grip, sights and buttstock being original can be had for 180k......chinese cqa for 250k.......russain Saiga ak74/ or .223is in 325k



Path-Finder said:


> Talk about Gun p0rn. I have a question lets suppose you get the M4 which is the king or emperor of modularity. Then are modular device available to kit out your M4?


Yep, they are indeed, although way too expensive, so best bet is to have someone.bring in the parts in checked luggage from Canada, US......and thats the plan.....small parts are no issue

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## DESERT FIGHTER

balixd said:


> Depends on the money you can throw, a complete local can be had for 35k, while an AK platform with russian receiver and stuff can be had for 130k.....if you are looking at AR, then same goes for it.....but they are a bit expensive.....lower and upper lower made with bcg and barrel,grip, sights and buttstock being original can be had for 180k......chinese cqa for 250k.



I meant original weapons bhai.

Not chinese or local.


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## Amaa'n

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> I meant original weapons bhai.
> 
> Not chinese or local.


600k + ....but there is no use for that....you are getting an imported weapon in that price.....what people are doing these days is buying the chinese version, and getting that kitted out as you can replace the upper as you please

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## DESERT FIGHTER

balixd said:


> 600k + ....but there is no use for that....you are getting an imported weapon in that price.....what people are doing these days is buying the chinese version, and getting that kitted out as you can replace the upper as you please


Uppers are geniune or local ?

Also any way to convert saiga 12 into auto?

Or is jugaad the only way.


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## Amaa'n

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Uppers are geniune or local ?
> 
> Also any way to convert saiga 12 into auto?
> 
> Or is jugaad the only way.


Again that depends on how much money you can throw....upper itself is retailing at 90-100k, that s US made......barrel for M4 colt at 60k in good condition.....so do the math your way......n

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## monitor

Interesting I thought assault rifle are different variant.

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## Armchair-General

Personally I want the AK-103


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## Amaa'n

Ak12 all the way

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## Zarvan

balixd said:


> Ak12 all the way


AK-12 is 5.56 x 39 but it's AK-15 which is 7.62 X 39


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## Amaa'n

Zarvan said:


> AK-12 is 5.56 x 39 but it's AK-15 which is 7.62 X 39


Crap!!!, i made a grave mistake, i should have ensured that i picked the right number ...... AK - 15, i hope you are happy with it now.....

I mentioned AK - 12 for a reason...if we could move from 51 N to 39R to 556, then why then give 545 a shot, its one one of a round in Short range combat, low recoil, armor piercing, less waiting....its basically trimmed down version of 39R......its more accurate...more velocity and tumbles inside the body causing more damage then a 556.....

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## Stimpy75

i dont wat to get into any discussion but what do you think?
i guess it s about the trials you have hold?!
scroll a bit down
http://sturgeonshouse.ipbhost.com/t...y-with-interim-15mm-revolver-cannon/?page=360

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## Arsalan

balixd said:


> Crap!!!, i made a grave mistake, i should have ensured that i picked the right number ...... AK - 15, i hope you are happy with it now.....
> 
> I mentioned AK - 12 for a reason...if we could move from 51 N to 39R to 556, then why then give 545 a shot, its one one of a round in Short range combat, low recoil, armor piercing, less waiting....its basically trimmed down version of 39R......its more accurate...more velocity and tumbles inside the body causing more damage then a 556.....


but but but..... no one talked this lingo on FB


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## untitled

monitor said:


> Interesting I thought assault rifle are different variant.


They are. An assault rifle is a rifle that fires an "intermediate" round. Intermediate between a handgun and a battle rifle round


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## Amaa'n

Arsalan said:


> but but but..... no one talked this lingo on FB


Because no one knows,the 5.45....very less is known by the faujis about the caliber


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## Arsalan

balixd said:


> Because no one knows,the 5.45....very less is known by the faujis about the caliber


Whats not on FB is NOT authentic! Should not have mentioned it. It is "USELESS" as some people love to say!


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## Amaa'n

Arsalan said:


> Whats not on FB is NOT authentic! Should not have mentioned it. It is "USELESS" as some people love to say!


because AK rifles are not KOOL or as say KEWL.......they are rough, they are tough.....AR platform is prone to malfunction in a dusty environement, then you have another debate of Direct Injection vs Piston Driven ....... but because AR looks cool with all those goodies, they get the upper hand, while maskeen AK 74 gets left out......if ammo price & availability was not an issue i would have personally gone for a 5.45 but just because of ammo not being available as much as 5.56, i have to opt for .223....

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## Hexciter

CZ will open a production line in Egypt.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2018/03/26/cz-launching-handgun-rifle-manufacturing-egypt/

Beretta will open a production line in Qatar.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2018/03/22/beretta-agrees-qatar-rifle-production-license/


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## Hexciter

PGZ (Polish Armaments Group) will open a production line in Nigeria
http://www.janes.com/article/78899/nigeria-to-manufacture-polish-assault-rifles


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## Hu Yao

Why PAF still using G3 rifle other than AR15 family or AK family assult rifle?

In my mind those 7.62*51 battle rifile is hard to aim in automatic mode. Why you need ammunition that strong?


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## muhammadali233

Hu Yao said:


> Why PAF still using G3 rifle other than AR15 family or AK family assult rifle?
> 
> In my mind those 7.62*51 battle rifile is hard to aim in automatic mode. Why you need ammunition that strong?


one shot one kill
762x51 has more stopping power than x39 and 556.
we don't want our enemy to be injured,either he lives or doesn't.


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## GriffinsRule

muhammadali233 said:


> one shot one kill
> 762x51 has more stopping power than x39 and 556.
> we don't want our enemy to be injured,either he lives or doesn't.



Injured soldiers create more burden on the enemy vs dead ones. If you are dead, no one gives a shit, but if you are injured, then more soldiers and resources have to be directed towards rescue, extraction, treatment etc and that is all helpful to the opposing side.

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## Reichsmarschall

Scar was best performing rifle in trials

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## Haris Mansoor

This thread was started back in 2015, are we in India's footstep? delaying everything...


----------



## Saquib

About the Army's new rifle can anybody let us know, where they at the testing stage - 
How many rifles where tested and how many rounds where fired?
Which rifles have been eliminated from the tests and why? 
Which rifles are still in the test?
Which rifles where a disappointment?
Which rifles where a big surprise?
What is the most likely new rifle?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

GriffinsRule said:


> Injured soldiers create more burden on the enemy vs dead ones. If you are dead, no one gives a shit, but if you are injured, then more soldiers and resources have to be directed towards rescue, extraction, treatment etc and that is all helpful to the opposing side.


It also has low stopping power n range.

Failed in Afghanistan.. try that against a soldier wearing a body armour.

Even Indians now plan to shift to 7.62... just like US and others.

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## MBT 3000

hmmm guns


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## TaimiKhan

Ok guys, just for update, the new rifle program isnt dead yet. Things are still moving. Trials ended. Position wise 1. Fn scar design 2. cz 807 3. Arx-200 4. Ak-103A. 

Financial nego may also have been nearly finalized, some feedback is being taken, after which most probably final decision will be taken. 

But hopefully final would be between fn scar and cz-807, as both rifles are nearly clone of each other, rather cz made as a clone with just slight changes, rest same. 

So lets hope for the best.

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## Zarvan

TaimiKhan said:


> Ok guys, just for update, the new rifle program isnt dead yet. Things are still moving. Trials ended. Position wise 1. Fn scar design 2. cz 807 3. Arx-200 4. Ak-103A.
> 
> Financial nego may also have been nearly finalized, some feedback is being taken, after which most probably final decision will be taken.
> 
> But hopefully final would be between fn scar and cz-807, as both rifles are nearly clone of each other, rather cz made as a clone with just slight changes, rest same.
> 
> So lets hope for the best.


Sir there are two tenders one is for 7.62 X 39 and one is for 7.62 X 51 please details on that would be appreciated @Horus

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## Kompromat

After June.

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## monitor

FN-SCAR-L VS ARS-200

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## Muhammad Omar

TaimiKhan said:


> Ok guys, just for update, the new rifle program isnt dead yet. Things are still moving. Trials ended. Position wise 1. Fn scar design 2. cz 807 3. Arx-200 4. Ak-103A.
> 
> Financial nego may also have been nearly finalized, some feedback is being taken, after which most probably final decision will be taken.
> 
> But hopefully final would be between fn scar and cz-807, as both rifles are nearly clone of each other, rather cz made as a clone with just slight changes, rest same.
> 
> So lets hope for the best.



Finally some good update ... THANK YOU SIR


----------



## TaimiKhan

Zarvan said:


> Sir there are two tenders one is for 7.62 X 39 and one is for 7.62 X 51 please details on that would be appreciated @Horus



It can be one design for both calibres or 2 rifles getting selected for different calibre options. 

FN Scar got tested in the 7.62*51mm category, but from what i heard, they may also be giving option to give us capability / machinery to make the 7.62*39mm in the same design. 

Same goes for CZ-807. The 7.62*39mm is already in use by some users, but 7.62*51mm has specially been brought for the trials of PA. So they are also giving options for both calibres.

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## Path-Finder

TaimiKhan said:


> It can be one design for both calibres or 2 rifles getting selected for different calibre options.
> 
> FN Scar got tested in the 7.62*51mm category, but from what i heard, they may also be giving option to give us capability / machinery to make the 7.62*39mm in the same design.
> 
> Same goes for CZ-807. The 7.62*39mm is already in use by some users, but 7.62*51mm has specially been brought for the trials of PA. So they are also giving options for both calibres.









@Gryphon

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## Bilal.

In my opinion, the decision should be suspended for a couple of years, since 7.62 is becoming obsolescent and we are on the verge of new (and superior) caliber standard being introduced, most likely a creedmoor derivative that would utterly outclass 762 in terms of accuracy, range, power, recoil and weight.


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## Kompromat

Bilal. said:


> In my opinion, the decision should be suspended for a couple of years, since 7.62 is becoming obsolescent and we are on the verge of new (and superior) caliber standard being introduced, most likely a creedmoor derivative that would utterly outclass 762 in terms of accuracy, range, power, recoil and weight.




Who will pay for billions of new rounds of ammunition?

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## Bilal.

Horus said:


> Who will pay for billions of new rounds of ammunition?



It would have to be gradual for sure, but buying billions worth of rifles that will stay with us for the next 30-40 years should not be based on an obsolescent round in my opinion.


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## Zarvan

Bilal. said:


> It would have to be gradual for sure, but buying billions worth of rifles that will stay with us for the next 30-40 years should not be based on an obsolescent round in my opinion.


It's a dam good round and in fact even India is looking to come to this round. Also USA may use this round soon


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## Bilal.

Zarvan said:


> It's a dam good round and in fact even India is looking to come to this round. Also USA may use this round soon



I am assuming you are talking about creedmoor. India as it looks is going back to 7.62 NATO, but you are right about USA. Yes it is a damn good round, it simply blows away 308/7.62 NATO in all aspects of performance and specs. Only challenge as Horus pointed out is the logistics and economic one that would be expected from adopting a new ammo standard, which obviously is huge and cannot be understated.


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## Kompromat

7.62 is not obsolete my good friend. It still hits like an artillery shell. You must also consider that replacing a rifle isn't enough should you introduce a new round. You'd have to also replace almost a million machine guns and sniper rifles of various types.



Bilal. said:


> It would have to be gradual for sure, but buying billions worth of rifles that will stay with us for the next 30-40 years should not be based on an obsolescent round in my opinion.

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## Amaa'n

Horus said:


> 7.62 is not obsolete my good friend. It still hits like an artillery shell. You must also consider that replacing a rifle isn't enough should you introduce a new round. You'd have to also replace almost a million machine guns and sniper rifles of various types.


well you don't have to throw away the entire lot, there is a potential for 3.8 S/A rifle in consumer market, be it Pakistan or US.
PoF would have got good ROI if Punjab had allowed them the sale of 308 Sporter with in Punjab.....few can be upgraded and sold to LEA for DMR role, this would include ASF, ANF, or your CTD.....problem with Pof is the marketing to the right sector and then the policy hurdles set by the govt......

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## Bilal.

Horus said:


> 7.62 is not obsolete my good friend. It still hits like an artillery shell. You must also consider that replacing a rifle isn't enough should you introduce a new round. You'd have to also replace almost a million machine guns and sniper rifles of various types.



Yes its not obsolete but obsolescent. If we are deciding on something that will stick for half a century, it should be future proof.

Plus as balixd pointed, it can still be utilized in other utilities. Plus, gradual replacement means that it will not all become redundant on the day 1 of the arrival of the first rifles.

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## Amaa'n

Bilal. said:


> Yes its not obsolete but obsolescent. If we are deciding on something that will stick for half a century, it should be future proof.
> 
> Plus as balixd pointed, it can still be utilized in other utilities. Plus, gradual replacement means that it will not all become redundant on the day 1 of the arrival of the first rifles.


never used either of the rounds since both are not available in Pakistan, but if i was to pick a round it would be 300 AAC blackout.....what i have read and seen the ballistics, the round packs a punch of 7.62 x39 with a lean trajectory of a 223.....and considering M4 is already taking 300 blk round then am sure we would be able to upgrade our rifles to same standard be it 300 blk or 6.5 creemor .......

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## Bilal.

balixd said:


> never used either of the rounds since both are not available in Pakistan, but if i was to pick a round it would be 300 AAC blackout.....what i have read and seen the ballistics, the round packs a punch of 7.62 x39 with a lean trajectory of a 223.....and considering M4 is already taking 300 blk round then am sure we would be able to upgrade our rifles to same standard be it 300 blk or 6.5 creemor .......



For SMG replacement, you are right, blackout or grendel could be good candidates whereas for battle/assault rifle, creedmoor takes the cake. Its accurate out to 1000 yds plus, stays supersonic longer and has lesser wind drift. Add to that the weight advantage and less recoil and it seems like a shooters dream.


----------



## Amaa'n

Bilal. said:


> For SMG replacement, you are right, blackout or grendel could be good candidates whereas for battle/assault rifle, creedmoor takes the cake. Its accurate out to 1000 yds plus, stays supersonic longer and has lesser wind drift. Add to that the weight advantage and less recoil and it seems like a shooters dream.


for replacing the Battle rifle it would still take time because even NATO has n't adopted this round yet. 51N is still widely used be it SOCCOM units or the regular troops......although I am aware that 6.5 grandel is with USMC for sniper roles......

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## Bilal.

balixd said:


> for replacing the Battle rifle it would still take time because even NATO has n't adopted this round yet. 51N is still widely used be it SOCCOM units or the regular troops......although I am aware that 6.5 grandel is with USMC for sniper roles......



They haven't adopted the new round yet but its under process, the so called over-match round that they are looking for, most likely it would be a creedmoor derivative. The decision, if I am not mistaken is due in a couple of years. Thats why we should wait for it, let the new round be adopted and we should follow suit. The economies of scale will be automatic.


----------



## TheDarkKnight

Path-Finder said:


> View attachment 464353
> 
> 
> @Gryphon


Is the top one 7.62x51?


----------



## Path-Finder

TheDarkKnight said:


> Is the top one 7.62x51?



I believe so.

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## denel

Horus said:


> 7.62 is not obsolete my good friend. It still hits like an artillery shell. You must also consider that replacing a rifle isn't enough should you introduce a new round. You'd have to also replace almost a million machine guns and sniper rifles of various types.


I second that motion.....


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## django

Hazrat @Zarvan It seems Zaid Hamid has jumped into the debate, hopefully his considerations are not followed.Kudos Hazrat

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/983773390145286144

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/983774150979354624

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/983774898874208256

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/983775406947028993

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/983775921491599360

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/983781807513620480

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## Path-Finder

bloody hell, that design has reached its limits and it cannot be used any further by a professional military. With more wars looming you need better weapons not outdated ones. WW2 was a wakeup call when some nations had no option but to make new weapons at the height of war.

Hence during calm periods the switch must be made quickly.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

django said:


> Hazrat @Zarvan It seems Zaid Hamid has jumped into the debate, hopefully his considerations are not followed.Kudos Hazrat
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/983773390145286144
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/983774150979354624
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/983774898874208256
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/983775406947028993
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/983775921491599360
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/983781807513620480


Lol ... this made my week. First, Zaid Hamid articulating a rational point. Second, doing it in a way that'd trigger Zarvan. Third, seeing Zaid Hamid trigger Zarvan with the *one* thing Zarvan wouldn't want to hear from anyone.

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## MastanKhan

balixd said:


> never used either of the rounds since both are not available in Pakistan, but if i was to pick a round it would be 300 AAC blackout.....what i have read and seen the ballistics, the round packs a punch of 7.62 x39 with a lean trajectory of a 223.....and considering M4 is already taking 300 blk round then am sure we would be able to upgrade our rifles to same standard be it 300 blk or 6.5 creemor .......



Hi,

The 300 blackout or the 6.5 creedmore are dramas created by a rich defence industry to get richer---.

Nothing beats the 7.62x51

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## Zarvan

django said:


> Hazrat @Zarvan It seems Zaid Hamid has jumped into the debate, hopefully his considerations are not followed.Kudos Hazrat
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/983773390145286144
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/983774150979354624
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/983774898874208256
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/983775406947028993
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/983775921491599360
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/983781807513620480


This dumbo just proved he seriously lacks knowledge about Assault Rifles I am just astonished



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Lol ... this made my week. First, Zaid Hamid articulating a rational point. Second, doing it in a way that'd trigger Zarvan. Third, seeing Zaid Hamid trigger Zarvan with the *one* thing Zarvan wouldn't want to hear from anyone.


What rational point he made ??? He just proved he has no knowledge I mean seriously he is suggesting that all the Rifles in trial don't use 7.62 X 51 caliber I expected much better from him.

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## django

Zarvan said:


> This dumbo just proved he seriously lacks knowledge about Assault Rifles I am just astonished


And here is me thinking you are his number 1 fan, damn I must be losing it.Kudos Hazrat

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## Zarvan

django said:


> And here is me thinking you are his number 1 fan, damn I must be losing it.Kudos Hazrat


Since he started spreading sectarian crap I have backed off he is another fundo who spreads sectarian crap

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## ZedZeeshan

Zarvan said:


> Since he started spreading sectarian crap I have backed off he is another fundo who spreads sectarian crap


What sectarian crap..??


----------



## django

Zarvan said:


> Since he started s*preading sectarian crap* I have backed off he is another fundo who spreads sectarian crap


 Was not aware of that though the man is a conspiracy nutjob of the highest order.Kudos Hazrat


----------



## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Since he started spreading sectarian crap I have backed off he is another fundo who spreads sectarian crap



really when?


----------



## JPMM

Modifying the G3 is only a stop gap until the new weapon is shosen and inducted. It take several years to hapen and until then you have to give some update to existing weapons.
As an exemple you can see Portuguese Army G3 in use in RCA (Central African Republic), they are a stopgape until the new regular weapon is in service

Thanks


----------



## Zhukov

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The 300 blackout or the 6.5 creedmore are dramas created by a rich defence industry to get richer---.
> 
> *Nothing beats the 7.62x51*


But 7.62x51 rounds have 2 major problems in modern warfare (same as 7.62x39)
1-These rounds are heavy and big. More effort is required to carry them compared to same number of rounds of modern ammunition like 5.45x39 or 5.56x45
2-These rounds are killer shots. They pack huge impact and kill the target most of the time. while modern warfare is all about inflicting more strain on enemy then casualties. A Dead soldier is a motivation booster for his fellow men and one man less. a fatally Wounded soldier is a Burden to carry, Costly to Heal, Demoralizing etc toll on enemy economy and armies you get the point. Heavy rounds might be good choice to counter insurgencies and terrorism but not for field armies for War

Thats why NATO countries subsequently moved to lighter 5.56x45 and Russians moved to 5.45x39 rounds and Chinese are using 5.8x42. WE should also adopt modern lighter ammunition and leave the heavier ones for specialized operations and requirement in limited use i.e Anti-Terrorist Operations


----------



## PAR 5

django said:


> Hazrat @Zarvan It seems Zaid Hamid has jumped into the debate, hopefully his considerations are not followed.Kudos Hazrat
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/983773390145286144
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/983774150979354624
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/983774898874208256
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/983775406947028993
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/983775921491599360
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/983781807513620480



Guess someone woke up late! Go back to sleep Zahid Hamid, we got this covered

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## Zarvan

ahmadnawaz22 said:


> But 7.62x51 rounds have 2 major problems in modern warfare (same as 7.62x39)
> 1-These rounds are heavy and big. More effort is required to carry them compared to same number of rounds of modern ammunition like 5.45x39 or 5.56x45
> 2-These rounds are killer shots. They pack huge impact and kill the target most of the time. while modern warfare is all about inflicting more strain on enemy then casualties. A Dead soldier is a motivation booster for his fellow men and one man less. a fatally Wounded soldier is a Burden to carry, Costly to Heal, Demoralizing etc toll on enemy economy and armies you get the point. Heavy rounds might be good choice to counter insurgencies and terrorism but not for field armies for War
> 
> Thats why NATO countries subsequently moved to lighter 5.56x45 and Russians moved to 5.45x39 rounds and Chinese are using 5.8x42. WE should also adopt modern lighter ammunition and leave the heavier ones for specialized operations and requirement in limited use i.e Anti-Terrorist Operations


Your 2nd point is exactly why Pakistan Army wants to have this caliber they are least interested in injuring the enemy but go for kill. We give a dam about injured enemy we love a dead enemy. What we need to be done is Police has to be given 5.56 X 45 caliber and also raise full SWAT units and let them to internal job

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## denel

Zarvan said:


> Your 2nd point is exactly why Pakistan Army wants to have this caliber they are least interested in injuring the enemy but go for kill. We give a dam about injured enemy we love a dead enemy. What we need to be done is Police has to be given 5.56 X 45 caliber and also raise full SWAT units and let them to internal job


We had the same dilemna. Previously back up to 70s' we were on 7.56mm using FN - R1; then our engagements in Angola and bush war showed that 5.56mm were better for the kind of ops we were being engaged with. That is why LMGs were relegated the 7.56mm role. There is never a silver bullet for everything. Personally it made a huge difference lugging around the 7.56mm vs 5.56mm and with larger capacity.

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## Zarvan

balixd said:


> well you don't have to throw away the entire lot, there is a potential for 3.8 S/A rifle in consumer market, be it Pakistan or US.
> PoF would have got good ROI if Punjab had allowed them the sale of 308 Sporter with in Punjab.....few can be upgraded and sold to LEA for DMR role, this would include ASF, ANF, or your CTD.....problem with Pof is the marketing to the right sector and then the policy hurdles set by the govt......


----------



## monitor

Zarvan said:


> Your 2nd point is exactly why Pakistan Army wants to have this caliber they are least interested in injuring the enemy but go for kill. We give a dam about injured enemy we love a dead enemy. What we need to be done is Police has to be given 5.56 X 45 caliber and also raise full SWAT units and let them to internal job




Actually injuring a enemy is more beneficial then killing him because by injured soldiers need to evacuate to safety which make pressure for the army on the contrary a dead soldier is dead nothing to to about him at least a t the heat moment of the war .


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## Signalian

monitor said:


> Actually injuring a enemy is more beneficial then killing him because by injured soldiers need to evacuate to safety which make pressure for the army on the contrary a dead soldier is dead nothing to to about him at least a t the heat moment of the war .



On the flip side, most wounded soldiers die before they even get medical assistance. A wounded soldier will defend his territory more aggressively and fear less for his life, which makes him even more deadlier than an unscathed soldier. 
Lastly, a dead soldier manning an MG nest, or 12.7mm HMG or a bigger caliber weapon is preferred than a wounded soldier who will still be able to man that weapon, though less efficiently, but can stall an advance and keep the enemy tied down and kill few more soldiers till he loses blood and dies.

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## monitor

Signalian said:


> On the flip side, most wounded soldiers die before they even get medical assistance. A wounded soldier will defend his territory more aggressively and fear less for his life, which makes him even more deadlier than an unscathed soldier.
> Lastly, a dead soldier manning an MG nest, or 12.7mm HMG or a bigger caliber weapon is preferred than a wounded soldier who will still be able to man that weapon, though less efficiently, but can stall an advance and keep the enemy tied down and kill few more soldiers till he loses blood and dies.



Ok both options have merit demerit so a weapon which can configure easily to different calibre will be most suitable.

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## Signalian

ahmadnawaz22 said:


> But 7.62x51 rounds have 2 major problems in modern warfare (same as 7.62x39)
> 1-These rounds are heavy and big. More effort is required to carry them compared to same number of rounds of modern ammunition like 5.45x39 or 5.56x45


For the sake of carrying more ammo and effort required, this is a major reason why sharp shooting training is given at ranges. Not every army is trigger happy when engaging the enemy. 

Secondly, carrying the ammunition is not a big factor when results are considered. These are small calibre rounds, not mortar, artillery or Tank rounds, for which the weapon becomes useless if ammunition is fired off completely.


> 2-These rounds are killer shots. They pack huge impact and kill the target most of the time. while modern warfare is all about inflicting more strain on enemy then casualties. A Dead soldier is a motivation booster for his fellow men and one man less. a fatally Wounded soldier is a Burden to carry, Costly to Heal, Demoralizing etc toll on enemy economy and armies you get the point. Heavy rounds might be good choice to counter insurgencies and terrorism but not for field armies for War


On the contrary, smaller caliber is used in urban warfare and CQB, while heavier caliber is used in open terrain and long distance engagement. This is due :
1. Effectiveness of smaller round at smaller ranges.
2. Ease to handle a smaller caliber weapon (MP-5 Vs G-3) in confined spaces.
3. Less collateral damage in urban environment.

If you have seen or been close to actual combat, you would know that most wounded soldiers unfortunately don't survive. Medics can get engaged with them and try to save them or carry them back, but do you know what happens after that?
These wounded soldiers are given desk appointments, communication and clerical tasks. This in fact counters the fact that medicine or resources were spent as this actually helps the enemy bring back the soldier in combat or use him elsewhere instead of wasting 6 months to train another.

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## Path-Finder

denel said:


> We had the same dilemna. Previously back up to 70s' we were on 7.56mm using FN - R1; then our engagements in Angola and bush war showed that 5.56mm were better for the kind of ops we were being engaged with. That is why LMGs were relegated the 7.56mm role. There is never a silver bullet for everything. Personally it made a huge difference lugging around the 7.56mm vs 5.56mm and with larger capacity.



I thought SA used 7.62x51!
.............................................
I believe the possibility of a round of 6mm range is the way forward as a balance between 5.56 & 7.62. Or....maybe the .280 British can be resurrected

Alternatively using 7.62x39 for close range and 7.62x51 for extended range makes sense. But having two calibres can be the straw that breaks the camel's back.


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## ali_raza

Signalian said:


> For the sake of carrying more ammo and effort required, this is a major reason why sharp shooting training is given at ranges. Not every army is trigger happy when engaging the enemy.
> 
> Secondly, carrying the ammunition is not a big factor when results are considered. These are small calibre rounds, not mortar, artillery or Tank rounds, for which the weapon becomes useless if ammunition is fired off completely.
> 
> On the contrary, smaller caliber is used in urban warfare and CQB, while heavier caliber is used in open terrain and long distance engagement. This is due :
> 1. Effectiveness of smaller round at smaller ranges.
> 2. Ease to handle a smaller caliber weapon (MP-5 Vs G-3) in confined spaces.
> 3. Less collateral damage in urban environment.
> 
> If you have seen or been close to actual combat, you would know that most wounded soldiers unfortunately don't survive. Medics can get engaged with them and try to save them or carry them back, but do you know what happens after that?
> These wounded soldiers are given desk appointments, communication and clerical tasks. This in fact counters the fact that medicine or resources were spent as this actually helps the enemy bring back the soldier in combat or use him elsewhere instead of wasting 6 months to train another.


and the fear factor which enemy knows very well that u r hit u r done.not like oh ok lets face it it will just injure me.

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## denel

Path-Finder said:


> I thought SA used 7.62x51!
> .............................................
> I believe the possibility of a round of 6mm range is the way forward as a balance between 5.56 & 7.62. Or....maybe the .280 British can be resurrected
> 
> Alternatively using 7.62x39 for close range and 7.62x51 for extended range makes sense. But having two calibres can be the straw that breaks the camel's back.


My apologies have been exhausted for past several days of construction work going on the farm and mistype - Correction 7.62x51 - R1 rifle. Prior to that was 0.303 which was discontinued in the 50's. Still it is a widely used round on the farms and hunting. I still have No 4 Mk2 in the safe.


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## Army research

denel said:


> My apologies have been exhausted for past several days of construction work going on the farm and mistype - Correction 7.62x51 - R1 rifle. Prior to that was 0.303 which was discontinued in the 50's. Still it is a widely used round on the farms and hunting. I still have No 4 Mk2 in the safe.


I personally love the number 5 jungle carbine in the .303, It's even so light and easy to use for close quarter combat though people say it has a shifting zero , mine works good


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## Amaa'n

Zarvan said:


>


Zarvan bhai, the thing is we cant just base our decisions from watching youtube videos, there is more to the bullet ballistics...lets just take a simple example
1) 7.62 x 25 aka 30 bore is a high velocity round, capable enought to penerate a nij3 body armor, you shoot someone at close range, the velocity is so high, it is going to pass through the person's body and hit the second target or ricochet, but does it have a knock off / knock down effect? No it does not when you compare it with 9 x 19 ....9mm para or Luger is a low velocity and heavier round but they have more punching power then a 30 bore......then you compare this 9mm to .45acp that has even more kick to it and more damage but less penetrating......

2) moving on to 300aac tlblackout, then below is a simple ballistics chart if a 123gr ammo
If you compare the Velocity , Bullet drop againt the distance and energy then it might make since to you.....
With 7.62 x 39 you are getting a bulket drop of 7.12 inches at 200 yards as compared to 5.8 inches drop of 300aac....300aac being a lighter catridge will get less wind drift as compared to 7.62 , a more heavier round......
Moving further on at 300 yards 7.62 has a drop of 26 inches with 558ft lbf and 1400 velocity ....
Compare that with 300aac that has a 21 inches drop at 300 yards with 2240 fps velocity and 884ft lbf.....I leave for you to decide

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## Armchair

6.5 gives the best balance imho.

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## Zarvan

balixd said:


> Zarvan bhai, the thing is we cant just base our decisions from watching youtube videos, there is more to the bullet ballistics...lets just take a simple example
> 1) 7.62 x 25 aka 30 bore is a high velocity round, capable enought to penerate a nij3 body armor, you shoot someone at close range, the velocity is so high, it is going to pass through the person's body and hit the second target or ricochet, but does it have a knock off / knock down effect? No it does not when you compare it with 9 x 19 ....9mm para or Luger is a low velocity and heavier round but they have more punching power then a 30 bore......then you compare this 9mm to .45acp that has even more kick to it and more damage but less penetrating......
> 
> 2) moving on to 300aac tlblackout, then below is a simple ballistics chart if a 123gr ammo
> If you compare the Velocity , Bullet drop againt the distance and energy then it might make since to you.....
> With 7.62 x 39 you are getting a bulket drop of 7.12 inches at 200 yards as compared to 5.8 inches drop of 300aac....300aac being a lighter catridge will get less wind drift as compared to 7.62 , a more heavier round......
> Moving further on at 300 yards 7.62 has a drop of 26 inches with 558ft lbf and 1400 velocity ....
> Compare that with 300aac that has a 21 inches drop at 300 yards with 2240 fps velocity and 884ft lbf.....I leave for you to decide
> View attachment 466511
> View attachment 466512


I know that but Pakistan should check it because it's Russia which mainly design 7.62 x 39 caliber Rifles and other than Russia not many countries are designing Rifles which have this caliber but 300 Blackout is spreading like wildfire and even SCAR version of 300 Blackout will come. SIG and HK also launching Rifles of 300 Blackout so is companies in UK and also I think Berreta also launching so if we are not satisfied with Rifles of 7.62 X 39 category than 300 Blackout should be tested. If not satisfied than stick to 5.56 X 45 and 7.62 x 51 and drop 7.62 x 39.


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## Amaa'n

Zarvan said:


> I know that but Pakistan should check it because it's Russia which mainly design 7.62 x 39 caliber Rifles and other than Russia not many countries are designing Rifles which have this caliber but 300 Blackout is spreading like wildfire and even SCAR version of 300 Blackout will come. SIG and HK also launching Rifles of 300 Blackout so is companies in UK and also I think Berreta also launching so if we are not satisfied with Rifles of 7.62 X 39 category than 300 Blackout should be tested. If not satisfied than stick to 5.56 X 45 and 7.62 x 51 and drop 7.62 x 39.


Design remains the same that is the benfit of having a modular rifle, you just have to swap out the upper and you get the change of calibre.....however thing with blackout is that one has to swap out the barrel only...., mags require a bit of modification on the lip and it should be fine.....you dont need a new rifle from sky.....

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## Path-Finder

denel said:


> My apologies have been exhausted for past several days of construction work going on the farm and mistype - Correction 7.62x51 - R1 rifle. Prior to that was 0.303 which was discontinued in the 50's. Still it is a widely used round on the farms and hunting. I still have No 4 Mk2 in the safe.



cool, stay safe.


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## denel

Path-Finder said:


> cool, stay safe.


Thanks for the correction. Man, putting up additional new homes to get extra income as an Inn. There is a need so trying to capitalise on it. Contractors try to cut corners so in the thick of things right now.



Army research said:


> I personally love the number 5 jungle carbine in the .303, It's even so light and easy to use for close quarter combat though people say it has a shifting zero , mine works good


We never find No5 this side as it was never built. Enfield 303 is still a ceremonial rifle here. The marksman course is done still using sportised Mk 4 No 2. A late friend still had his great grand pa's No 2 captured from British.

Good round and similar except gravity down drop is much quicker than 7.62. Interesting most of the rounds here are from PMP (pretoria); i saw a friend had an import - it said Wah. I think from Pak?
Anyway, digressed from the thread. No worries.

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## Armchair

I am curious so would like some input from learned members.

Why hasn't Pakistan considered the Type-81? It would be 7.62x39 and have better accuracy.

Modernizing the basic design with some tweaks, and instead of licence producing it, get out a model (with tacit Chinese support).

Basically Pakistan is looking for a lighter and more accurate AK-47. This can easily be based on the Type-81.

It would take a decent gunsmith to make Pakistan a proper assault rifle based on tested designs already in the market.
But the benefit is that Pakistan can then own the IP. Which means they can export it. _and earn foreign exchange._
It would also cost less than licensing a foreign product.

If there are no proper gun smiths in Pakistan who can do this, just put an advert in the US, and you will get 100s of applications from expert gunsmiths, many who make a living from building niche products for the US civilian market.

This is just an opinion. I would love to hear opinions, thoughts, comments.


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## django

Armchair said:


> I am curious so would like some input from learned members.
> 
> Why hasn't Pakistan considered the Type-81? It would be 7.62x39 and have better accuracy.
> 
> Modernizing the basic design with some tweaks, and instead of licence producing it, get out a model (with tacit Chinese support).
> 
> Basically Pakistan is looking for a lighter and more accurate AK-47. This can easily be based on the Type-81.
> 
> It would take a decent gunsmith to make Pakistan a proper assault rifle based on tested designs already in the market.
> But the benefit is that Pakistan can then own the IP. Which means they can export it. _and earn foreign exchange._
> It would also cost less than licensing a foreign product.
> 
> If there are no proper gun smiths in Pakistan who can do this, just put an advert in the US, and you will get 100s of applications from expert gunsmiths, many who make a living from building niche products for the US civilian market.
> 
> This is just an opinion. I would love to hear opinions, thoughts, comments.


Type 81 was used by SSG back in the 80s/90s/00s and it was evaluated for regular Pak army many years ago, it was rejected, as to why? I have no idea.Kudos

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## Armchair

okay so maybe not the Type 81 then. But take any gun they like, and hire an independent gun smith. Make it a bit different and customized to your needs. Own the IP. Make money from exports. Just makes more sense than licence producing things IMHO.



django said:


> Type 81 was used by SSG back in the 80s/90s/00s and it was evaluated for regular Pak army many years ago, it was rejected, as to why? I have no idea.Kudos


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## denel

Armchair said:


> okay so maybe not the Type 81 then. But take any gun they like, and hire an independent gun smith. Make it a bit different and customized to your needs. Own the IP. Make money from exports. Just makes more sense than licence producing things IMHO.


Agreed. this is not rocket science technology; if there had been foresight a replacement would have been had by now.

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## fatman17

FN SCAR-H with attached silencer, scope and bipod stand, spotted during Gun trials of Pakistan Army. https://t.co/MCjN54mld9

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## Zarvan

fatman17 said:


> FN SCAR-H with attached silencer, scope and bipod stand, spotted during Gun trials of Pakistan Army. https://t.co/MCjN54mld9
> View attachment 467436


Army seriously needs to start Gym thing yes we don't need John Cena but we also need much better health than this

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## Army research

Zarvan said:


> Army seriously needs to start Gym thing yes we don't need John Cena but we also need much better health than this


Army officers need toughness not strength, training doctrine of PMA, this guy looks freshly commissioned, give him a few years

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## django

Zarvan said:


> Army seriously needs to start Gym thing yes we don't need John Cena but we also need much better health than this


Hazrat he looks like a young fellow, give him a few years and he will naturally add on a stone of weight,,,healthy weight at that.Kudos Hazrat

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Army seriously needs to start Gym thing yes we don't need John Cena but we also need much better health than this



Clearly shows you know nothing about health and fitness! Not your fault Hazrat Derwaish'e Muffakar They teach PE at school as a subject in the UK which they clearly don't in Pakistan.


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Clearly shows you know nothing about health and fitness! Not your fault Hazrat Derwaish'e Muffakar They teach PE at school as a subject in the UK which they clearly don't in Pakistan.


I know but this soldier is clearly underweight like me and sorry being underweight is not good or fit

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> I know but this soldier is clearly underweight like me and sorry being underweight is not good or fit



Hazrat I am sure this soldier can run and march long distances. Which is what the military requires.






The bulky you are the less maneuverability you have and forget running and marching long distances.

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## django

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat I am sure this soldier can run and march long distances. Which is what the military requires.
> 
> *The bulky you are the less maneuverability* you have and forget running and marching long distances.


Plus you need more nutrients for optimum performance besides you do not want to be too big you present a bigger target for a sniper.Kudos yaar

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## Tipu7

Path-Finder said:


> The bulky you are the less maneuverability you have and forget running and marching long distances.


This is nice justification for covering up the weakness of our armed forces.
Big muscle does not mean you are sluggish or lack stamina. Its actually other way around. You may attain more weight but you will be able to carry more weight too, and with proper training will gain more stamina than skinny counter parts. Being muscular is different thing, being fat is different. Our troops in comparison are less trained, less fed and less fit viz-a-viz most Western counter parts. Element of Moral is area where we dominates.



django said:


> Plus you need more nutrients for optimum performance besides you do not want to be too big you present a bigger target for a sniper.Kudos yaar


O God. Don't tell me you are serious.

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## django

Tipu7 said:


> O God. Don't tell me you are serious.


The latter part was just tongue in cheek though I certainly do not want our soldiers to look like Arnold but more the leanish wiry types.Kudos


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## Bratva

django said:


> The latter part was just tongue in cheek though I certainly do not want our soldiers to look like Arnold but more the leanish wiry types.Kudos



Compare to 18-19 year old soldier of US Army vs 20-22 year old PMA Graduate. Former looks like big healthy brother of later.


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## Army research

The people in our nation are generally weak , in pma gym is not forced yet I know many current cadets with decent bodies, It's personal tho id stress the commanders to keep their subordinates in shape


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## django

Bratva said:


> Compare to 18-19 year old soldier of US Army vs 20-22 year old PMA Graduate. Former looks like big healthy brother of later.


Folk in US are generally bigger consuming many more calories throughout their lives yet our jawans have been fed on natural foods (not preservative stuffed garbage likes westerners), do not engage in gluttony and manage to perform all field tasks in impressive times, hats off to them.Kudos sir

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## Path-Finder

Tipu7 said:


> This is nice justification for covering up the weakness of our armed forces.
> Big muscle does not mean you are sluggish or lack stamina. Its actually other way around. You may attain more weight but you will be able to carry more weight too, and with proper training will gain more stamina than skinny counter parts. Being muscular is different thing, being fat is different. Our troops in comparison are less trained, less fed and less fit viz-a-viz most Western counter parts. Element of Moral is area where we dominates.
> 
> 
> O God. Don't tell me you are serious.



I want to share something with you and it is a step away from this but I will try to tie it into this. Last year I joined a gym and it was a Crossfit gym. With me was a young girl she was from Romania. She was skinny and petite.

You won't believe me but she was able to lift more weight than I was! She not only put me to shame but other boys in my group to shame. Her abilities were off the chart! The instructor was surprised too. The instructor was an elite athlete he used to play professional rugby. 

My point is just because the profile of this young soldier does not fit that of the western demeanor. Does not mean he cannot perform his duty to the highest standard. I have faith he will perform his duty at the highest standard.

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## Arsalan

Nice!! So this is how far this thread have come to in three years that after dissecting SCAR and BERN we are not talking about gym and fitness! 
I wish someone from army procurement wing will see this and may be he will have some mercy on the members here and finalize what rifle we actually want to go with.

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## Zarvan



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## MastanKhan

Path-Finder said:


> I want to share something with you and it is a step away from this but I will try to tie it into this. Last year I joined a gym and it was a Crossfit gym. With me was a young girl she was from Romania. She was skinny and petite.
> 
> You won't believe me but she was able to lift more weight than I was! She not only put me to shame but other boys in my group to shame. Her abilities were off the chart! The instructor was surprised too. The instructor was an elite athlete he used to play professional rugby.
> 
> My point is just because the profile of this young soldier does not fit that of the western demeanor. Does not mean he cannot perform his duty to the highest standard. I have faith he will perform his duty at the highest standard.




Hi,

This soldier will outlast the american marine in endurance at 8000 feet altitude any time of the day or night---and that is what the american troops found out---.

The bigger and bulkier that they were---they could not sustain themselves in the high mountains---.

This man is a lean mean fighting machine---.

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## GumNaam

Tipu7 said:


> This is nice justification for covering up the weakness of our armed forces.
> Big muscle does not mean you are sluggish or lack stamina. Its actually other way around. You may attain more weight but you will be able to carry more weight too, and with proper training will gain more stamina than skinny counter parts. Being muscular is different thing, being fat is different. Our troops in comparison are less trained, less fed and less fit viz-a-viz most Western counter parts. Element of Moral is area where we dominates.
> 
> 
> O God. Don't tell me you are serious.


western soldiers are heavy beer drinkers which is all carbs, goes straight to the thighs and the tummy...not to mention, kills brain cells. Trust me, I live in the pacific north west, a place that is littered with military bases, both army and marines and therefore see military personnel all the time. I see more fat than muscle...



Path-Finder said:


> I want to share something with you and it is a step away from this but I will try to tie it into this. Last year I joined a gym and it was a Crossfit gym. With me was a young girl she was from Romania. She was skinny and petite.
> 
> You won't believe me but she was able to lift more weight than I was! She not only put me to shame but other boys in my group to shame. Her abilities were off the chart! The instructor was surprised too. The instructor was an elite athlete he used to play professional rugby.
> 
> My point is just because the profile of this young soldier does not fit that of the western demeanor. Does not mean he cannot perform his duty to the highest standard. I have faith he will perform his duty at the highest standard.


 dude, this soldier looks like a fresh BMT grad after 5 months of training. He's what? 18 or 19? Look him up after 2 years of military langar and field fitness, he'll be a different person altogether, buffer, bigger, leaner, tougher. Pure muscle and stamina minus the fat.

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## Super Falcon

Lets be on topic rather than talking on other issues here 

Zaarvan any news what gun PA choosed

Lets be on topic rather than talking on other issues here 

Zaarvan any news what gun PA choosed

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Path-Finder said:


> I want to share something with you and it is a step away from this but I will try to tie it into this. Last year I joined a gym and it was a Crossfit gym. With me was a young girl she was from Romania. She was skinny and petite.
> 
> You won't believe me but she was able to lift more weight than I was! She not only put me to shame but other boys in my group to shame. Her abilities were off the chart! The instructor was surprised too. The instructor was an elite athlete he used to play professional rugby.
> 
> My point is just because the profile of this young soldier does not fit that of the western demeanor. Does not mean he cannot perform his duty to the highest standard. I have faith he will perform his duty at the highest standard.


He looks like a recently passed out cadet.. he’s hardly 20-21.

Here is an example of what PMA does;

PMA 





Now;

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## Zarvan

Super Falcon said:


> Lets be on topic rather than talking on other issues here
> 
> Zaarvan any news what gun PA choosed
> 
> Lets be on topic rather than talking on other issues here
> 
> Zaarvan any news what gun PA choosed


No news every one is waiting


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## Amaa'n

Path-Finder said:


> I want to share something with you and it is a step away from this but I will try to tie it into this. Last year I joined a gym and it was a Crossfit gym. With me was a young girl she was from Romania. She was skinny and petite.
> 
> You won't believe me but she was able to lift more weight than I was! She not only put me to shame but other boys in my group to shame. Her abilities were off the chart! The instructor was surprised too. The instructor was an elite athlete he used to play professional rugby.
> 
> My point is just because the profile of this young soldier does not fit that of the western demeanor. Does not mean he cannot perform his duty to the highest standard. I have faith he will perform his duty at the highest standard.


No offense intended and all due respect to this solider and many others who stand guard for.....throw this man in a CQB environment and see what he will be able to achieve.....he may be able to rapple on ropes, move around corners but how is he going to handle himself in hand to hand combat......how is he going to rescue his injured comrad, pull him to safety......
With military folks there is always a need to achieve a balance of fat reserves and muscle.....
Fat reserves will allow ypu to patrol for long marches or on recon......lean muscle will allow the endurance and stamina and the ability to carryon mkre weight



Arsalan said:


> Nice!! So this is how far this thread have come to in three years that after dissecting SCAR and BERN we are not talking about gym and fitness!
> I wish someone from army procurement wing will see this and may be he will have some mercy on the members here and finalize what rifle we actually want to go with.


Yes, they should visit so they can see fir themselves hiw we even discussed thevpossibility of our future caliber

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## Thunder.Storm

MSBS-7.62N (NATO) – is a prototype battle rifle variant chambered in 7.62×51mm NATO. It uses the conventional configuration of the MSBS system.

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## HAIDER

Somewhare in KPK










local Darra made

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## Thunder.Storm

Ab tu budget ka kam bhi tamam hogaya.


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## Zarvan




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## Muhammad Omar

So the budget is passed in the National Assembly of $9.5 billion (1100 Billion PKR) when we gonna hear about finalizing the new rifle ??


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## Zarvan

Muhammad Omar said:


> So the budget is passed in the National Assembly of $9.5 billion (1100 Billion PKR) when we gonna hear about finalizing the new rifle ??


Everybody is waiting but now I think announcement if will come will come during this year IDEAS


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## Armchair

I wish they would go f or an indigenous design. Tired of this licencing business. No export is meaningfully possible.

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## Path-Finder

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/992601405994274816

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/992609289981181952
Hazrat strikes again!

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## Zarvan

Armchair said:


> I wish they would go f or an indigenous design. Tired of this licencing business. No export is meaningfully possible.


We have done massive exports. And License I really doubt POF capabilities so better they go available designs


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## Armchair

Zarvan said:


> We have done massive exports. And License I really doubt POF capabilities so better they go available designs



Well, there are so many other options than licence manufacture. You could simply hire a gun designing firm to design one for you, based on any available design you like. Not only are there many such foreign firms, now there are even Pakistani ones. Like the one that designed the high velocity grenade launcher and exports its own designed firearms (forget the name).

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## Zuraib Qasit Khan

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/cz-b...akistan-army-best-rifle.557191/#post-10470368


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## Path-Finder



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## Zuraib Qasit Khan

Zarvan said:


> We have done massive exports. And License I really doubt POF capabilities so better they go available designs



CZ Bren 2 is a great Rifle for Export .
Considering it will be Indian-Muslims main self Defense Rifle .From Hindutva Terrorist.


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## Armchair

Zuraib Qasit Khan said:


> CZ Bren 2 is a great Rifle for Export .
> Considering it will be Indian-Muslims main self Defense Rifle .From Hindutva Terrorist.



So you are saying that CZ, an Eastern European firm, licencing their weapon will somehow become a "great rifle for Export". That doesn't make sense. Other countries wouldn't come to Pakistan to buy Czech rifles, they will go to the original manufacturer. 

Regarding "Muslim" "main self defence rifle" that just shows how ridiculous Muslims today have become. Czech is a central state of the former Austro Hungarian empire, the main opponent of the Ottomans. So your idea of a "Muslim" rifle is to buy a European product? Really? My fellow Muslims constantly amaze me. I don't know whether to laugh or to cry.

Between, the CZ Bren 2 is actually a great example of what Pakistan should do. The Czech loved the design of the design of the FN Scar and basically made one with minor changes so they don't have to licence build FN Scars and have an export item of their own, as well as lower costs.


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## Zarvan

Zuraib Qasit Khan said:


> CZ Bren 2 is a great Rifle for Export .
> Considering it will be Indian-Muslims main self Defense Rifle .From Hindutva Terrorist.


Janab thing is CZ-807 is not finalized. Nobody has any idea which Rifle is finalized or even close to be finalized

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## Zarvan

Just found a really interesting picture look at this G3 version Guys

@Horus @Path-Finder @Arsalan @balixd


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## Zarvan



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## DESERT FIGHTER

Zarvan said:


> Just found a really interesting picture look at this G3 version Guys
> 
> @Horus @Path-Finder @Arsalan @balixd


G-3S variant with a side stock.


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## SSGcommandoPAK

Zarvan said:


> Just found a really interesting picture look at this G3 version Guys
> 
> @Horus @Path-Finder @Arsalan @balixd


What caliber does it fire ?


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## fitpOsitive

Zarvan said:


>


Any views on latest Aks? apart from this video. How do you see as compared to SCAR? I still admire AKs, specially AK 100+ versions.


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## Zarvan

fitpOsitive said:


> Any views on latest Aks? apart from this video. How do you see as compared to SCAR? I still admire AKs, specially AK 100+ versions.


O bhai AK is available in 7.62 X 39. AK even if comes will replace Type 56 not G3. For G3 main competition is between SCAR and Berreta

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## Super Falcon

Zaarvan yaar ab kia army khal utara gi kia gun ki konse lani ha bhai hum log bhot pecha ha army purani chezo pa like puma apv pa fazool pesa waste kar rahy hai aur zarorat ki chezo pa time ko itna wate kar rahy ha ka jin guns ko choise karna ha unhii ka 3 and 4 ggeneration clone market ma agaye ha shame


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## Zarvan

Super Falcon said:


> Zaarvan yaar ab kia army khal utara gi kia gun ki konse lani ha bhai hum log bhot pecha ha army purani chezo pa like puma apv pa fazool pesa waste kar rahy hai aur zarorat ki chezo pa time ko itna wate kar rahy ha ka jin guns ko choise karna ha unhii ka 3 and 4 ggeneration clone market ma agaye ha shame


Rifles are 50 year investment not a joke and we have most extreme temperatures so there are chances if we select more than one Rifle series we may tested Rifles in first go rifles which we liked went through some changes to suit us and were tested again


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## denel

Zarvan said:


> Rifles are 50 year investment not a joke and we have most extreme temperatures so there are chances if we select more than one Rifle series we may tested Rifles in first go rifles which we liked went through some changes to suit us and were tested again


Fingers crossed. Lets see ... Still waiting

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## Zuraib Qasit Khan

Zarvan said:


>


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## Zarvan

*GROT RIFLE TESTS! Compare new Grot rifle to four other rifles!*


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## YeBeWarned

382 Pages and i am still hooting for CZ Bern , and SCAR is still the best rifles in Trails ... and yet there is none that is finalized ..


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## Zarvan

Starlord said:


> 382 Pages and i am still hooting for CZ Bern , and SCAR is still the best rifles in Trails ... and yet there is none that is finalized ..


Every one is waiting for it janab


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## Ahmet Pasha

CZ actually does seem like a great option.


Starlord said:


> 382 Pages and i am still hooting for CZ Bern , and SCAR is still the best rifles in Trails ... and yet there is none that is finalized ..


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## SurvivoR

I almost daily come and visit this thread upon the expectation of some breaking news but alas!

However I have swung in favor from SCAR to CZ from the very first day that I have been following this awesome yet stalled thread. 

Wonder how the Egyptian Forces are doing with their CZs. Any insight from their experience till now might be helpful.


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## ziaulislam

Armchair said:


> I wish they would go f or an indigenous design. Tired of this licencing business. No export is meaningfully possible.


or joint venture
trust me with market saturated anyone will be ready for JV especially the Serbian or Polish


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## Rana4pak

I think we need 50 years for selection of gun bcz it’s 50 years investment?


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## Path-Finder

Rana4pak said:


> I think we need 50 years for selection of gun bcz it’s 50 years investment?


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## Kompromat

The gun has been selected. Contract negotiations will take time. Issues like transfer of technology, production equipment, servicing, legal agreements and financing have to be sorted out. 



Rana4pak said:


> I think we need 50 years for selection of gun bcz it’s 50 years investment?

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## Rana4pak

Horus said:


> The gun has been selected. Contract negotiations will take time. Issues like transfer of technology, production equipment, servicing, legal agreements and financing have to be sorted out.


Bro can you plz let us know which one is selected I;e Bren or scar

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## Zarvan

Rana4pak said:


> Bro can you plz let us know which one is selected I;e Bren or scar


I really hate habbit of Horus he either answers in one word and even when he answers in detail he keeps out the most important thing @Horus


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## django

Zarvan said:


> I really hate habbit of Horus he either answers in one word and even when he answers in detail he keeps out the most important thing @Horus


Actually Hazrat you could learn a thing or two from @Horus bhai, lesson one being never ever become to over enthusiastic

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## Zarvan

django said:


> Actually Hazrat you could learn a thing or two from @Horus bhai, lesson one being never ever become to over enthusiastic


On Rifle issue my biggest source is this guy. In fact most of things he claims on other weapon systems also when ever I have tried to question him have failed and he has proven right so let see when he decides to reveal the name but I am pretty sure SCAR has been finalized

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## django

Zarvan said:


> On Rifle issue my biggest source is this guy. In fact most of things he claims on other weapon systems also when ever I have tried to question him have failed and he has proven right so let see when he decides to reveal the name but I am pretty sure SCAR has been finalized


May the best rifle be procured, by heck the jawans deserve it.Kudos Hazrat


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## denel

Any bets? I vote CZ....

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## Kompromat

I dont know that yet.



Rana4pak said:


> Bro can you plz let us know which one is selected I;e Bren or scar

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## Mumm-Ra

Zarvan said:


> I really hate habbit of Horus he either answers in one word and even when he answers in detail he keeps out the most important thing @Horus



That's probably the right thing to do. Don't you think so too??


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## Ahmet Pasha

Moi aussi


denel said:


> Any bets? I vote CZ....


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## JPMM

denel said:


> Any bets? I vote CZ....


Eu também! (mee too)


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## Armchair

_I hope a brick falls on their head and they suddenly wake up, realize, "we can just make a similar design to the CZ/Bren ourselves and own the patent", and everyone lives happily ever after._

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## JPMM

Armchair said:


> _I hope a brick falls on their head and they suddenly wake up, realize, "we can just make a similar design to the CZ/Bren ourselves and own the patent", and everyone lives happily ever after._


And it would take longer to get the new rifle (already a long span project)
Thanks


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## DESERT FIGHTER

JPMM said:


> And it would take longer to get the new rifle (already a long span project)
> Thanks


If they can come up with sniper rifles,DMRs and HMGs ... they sure can come up with an assault rifle...

I hope they do... 

Ironically the last indigenous AR they made was a small Calib which didn’t fly with the SF testing it or the army... effectively killing it..





As well as other weird rifles they came up with based on G3 & MP5 parts.

But still they market it internationally! Ironic!

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## Armchair

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> If they can come up with sniper rifles,DMRs and HMGs ... they sure can come up with an assault rifle...
> 
> I hope they do...
> 
> Ironically the last indigenous AR they made was a small Calib which didn’t fly with the SF testing it or the army... effectively killing it..
> View attachment 476732
> 
> As well as other weird rifles they came up with based on G3 & MP5 parts.
> 
> But still they market it internationally! Ironic!



They just need to stop coming up with ridiculous designs and give the designing job to established outsourced gun-smiths. Something on the lines of "here is a SCAR and here is a Bren. Please make something like them but one that not too closely resembles them, so that we can call it our own rifle". Easiest job in the planet. The only hurdle are the advanced composites and plastics needed for the framing. This tech can be separately bought from a variety of sources including China, Poland, Italy, Czech, Ukraine, Russia, variou EU vendors, and even South Korea / Singapore. Not to mention Turkey. 

A little smartness goes a long way. But no. They will do "what they have always done". "Licence produce a design from a gora company.

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## Bossman

Armchair said:


> They just need to stop coming up with ridiculous designs and give the designing job to established outsourced gun-smiths. Something on the lines of "here is a SCAR and here is a Bren. Please make something like them but one that not too closely resembles them, so that we can call it our own rifle". Easiest job in the planet. The only hurdle are the advanced composites and plastics needed for the framing. This tech can be separately bought from a variety of sources including China, Poland, Italy, Czech, Ukraine, Russia, variou EU vendors, and even South Korea / Singapore. Not to mention Turkey.
> 
> A little smartness goes a long way. But no. They will do "what they have always done". "Licence produce a design from a gora company.



Well the Indians tried it with their own INSAS and we all know the results and they have a more sophisticated military Industrial complex than Pakistan.It is one the worst rifle to enter service in any military. Copying is easy and Pakistani are very good at it every thing from Glocks to AKs but a main assault rifle is a entirely different ball game. Spend a little time thinking and researching.


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## Armchair

Bossman said:


> Well the Indians tried it with their own INSAS and we all know the results and they have a more sophisticated military Industrial complex than Pakistan.It is one the worst rifle to enter service in any military. Copying is easy and Pakistani are very good at it every thing from Glocks to AKs but a main assault rifle is a entirely different ball game. Spend a little time thinking and researching.



I think its a faulty analogy to compare anything India does with anything a decent MIC should be able to do. The long litany of failed white elephants is up for show. 

With the INSAS, our Indian friends tried to take bits and pieces from different rifle designs and make a "new" design. This is a fundamentally flawed approach. You don't need to make a Frankenstein. 

The Bren is essentially a SCAR. They are so similar. You just need to take one design and make a closely similar assault rifle. 

Let me reiterate this point - INSAS is trying to take bits and pieces of designs from a host of divergent designs. Its by a country that would mess up the formula for making lolly pops. There is nothing worth comparing this to a real system. 

There is a gun company in Pakistan for instance, that exports guns, including military grade handguns. They made their own "design", basically copied a well established design and made a few changes. Its now being exported and bringing forex for your country. Its that simple. You're telling me a small Pakistani private company can do this, but Pakistan's military cannot?

You're also ignoring that there are a wide assortment of global gunsmiths that can do this for you. Yes, you can also go to a gora to get it done for you if you like. You'd still have your own brand of assault rifles and not have to pay licence fees, or face export restrictions.

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## denel

Armchair said:


> I think its a faulty analogy to compare anything India does with anything a decent MIC should be able to do. The long litany of failed white elephants is up for show.
> 
> With the INSAS, our Indian friends tried to take bits and pieces from different rifle designs and make a "new" design. This is a fundamentally flawed approach. You don't need to make a Frankenstein.
> 
> The Bren is essentially a SCAR. They are so similar. You just need to take one design and make a closely similar assault rifle.
> 
> Let me reiterate this point - INSAS is trying to take bits and pieces of designs from a host of divergent designs. Its by a country that would mess up the formula for making lolly pops. There is nothing worth comparing this to a real system.
> 
> There is a gun company in Pakistan for instance, that exports guns, including military grade handguns. They made their own "design", basically copied a well established design and made a few changes. Its now being exported and bringing forex for your country. Its that simple. You're telling me a small Pakistani private company can do this, but Pakistan's military cannot?
> 
> You're also ignoring that there are a wide assortment of global gunsmiths that can do this for you. Yes, you can also go to a gora to get it done for you if you like. You'd still have your own brand of assault rifles and not have to pay licence fees, or face export restrictions.


Well said friend. You are going to hit your head on the wall; bottom line too many vested interest and no purpose to serve and prevail. If they had a good sense of seperating industry from the military it would not have been at this stage. That is exactly what we did back since 50's under no circumstances SADF gets involved in the affairs of Armscor, Atlas, PMP etc ... instead each was left to innovate with a steady stream of graduates who took interests in various mechnical, electrical, aeronautical problem areas etc; SADF role was to provide the specifications of what they needed; in your case you cannot have the doctor also be a patient performing surgery - bad analogy but true.
The same issue is not only about basic rifles but across the board and if it was not 'Copy Mao', you can imagine the state of affairs then. You have been very fortunate to have China to essentially give you blueprints to make a screw. Furthermore every argument is about India or someone; as you rightfully put it, God has given you brains, use it and crave your own route.
Look at us, during the sanctions time, it was the best time in terms of where we took R&D in my country and it brought the country forward leaps and bounds across each and every sector - mining, agriculture, industrial - chemical industries, petrochemical - SASOL(80% of fuel in SA is derived locally from Coal using GTL - Fisher Thropp process) etc. The list is just endless if you get my drift; that also translated into our military support complex with Cheetah, Impalas, world pioneers in HMDs, secure comms, mine proof vehicles, hand guns, cannons, helicopters/gunships, aams, etc etc. During the cheetah program we needed to plumb them with IFR - back to the drawing board and a solution was found; it baffles me that you have the manpower and brainpower and cannot produce a local solution for handguns, or service rifle. At my university we produce some of the world's best gliders - jonkers just look it up - Prof Jonkers started this effort on his own - he had a will to do something. If there is a will there is a way is what I am saying.
Thanks... keep challenging the status quo. That is when there is a spark of change. But if society takes a backseat and says this is the way things are done, then your society is unfortunately doomed to remain in backwaters until perpetuity.

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## Sine Nomine

Armchair said:


> *The only hurdle are the advanced composites and plastics *needed for the framing. This tech can be separately bought from a variety of sources including China, Poland, Italy, Czech, Ukraine, Russia, variou EU vendors, and even South Korea / Singapore. Not to mention Turkey.


If you look at our Military Industrial Complex,designing a Rifle for our Gunsmiths is a joke,it's only matter of the fact that We Want To Field a Home Grown Rifle or Not.

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## Armchair

denel said:


> Well said friend. You are going to hit your head on the wall; bottom line too many vested interest and no purpose to serve and prevail. If they had a good sense of seperating industry from the military it would not have been at this stage. That is exactly what we did back since 50's under no circumstances SADF gets involved in the affairs of Armscor, Atlas, PMP etc ... instead each was left to innovate with a steady stream of graduates who took interests in various mechnical, electrical, aeronautical problem areas etc; SADF role was to provide the specifications of what they needed; in your case you cannot have the doctor also be a patient performing surgery - bad analogy but true.
> The same issue is not only about basic rifles but across the board and if it was not 'Copy Mao', you can imagine the state of affairs then. You have been very fortunate to have China to essentially give you blueprints to make a screw. Furthermore every argument is about India or someone; as you rightfully put it, God has given you brains, use it and crave your own route.
> Look at us, during the sanctions time, it was the best time in terms of where we took R&D in my country and it brought the country forward leaps and bounds across each and every sector - mining, agriculture, industrial - chemical industries, petrochemical - SASOL(80% of fuel in SA is derived locally from Coal using GTL - Fisher Thropp process) etc. The list is just endless if you get my drift; that also translated into our military support complex with Cheetah, Impalas, world pioneers in HMDs, secure comms, mine proof vehicles, hand guns, cannons, helicopters/gunships, aams, etc etc. During the cheetah program we needed to plumb them with IFR - back to the drawing board and a solution was found; it baffles me that you have the manpower and brainpower and cannot produce a local solution for handguns, or service rifle. At my university we produce some of the world's best gliders - jonkers just look it up - Prof Jonkers started this effort on his own - he had a will to do something. If there is a will there is a way is what I am saying.
> Thanks... keep challenging the status quo. That is when there is a spark of change. But if society takes a backseat and says this is the way things are done, then your society is unfortunately doomed to remain in backwaters until perpetuity.



Thanks for this excellent post Denel. The will, the right methodology, and resources. South Africa did wonders. If only South Asia could follow in its footsteps.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Armchair said:


> Thanks for this excellent post Denel. The will, the right methodology, and resources. South Africa did wonders. If only South Asia could follow in its footsteps.


Functionally, it seems HIT, PAC, POF and KSEW operate like supply depots of the PA, PAF and PN more so than actual arms companies. Basically, product development is tied to exactly what the armed forces want, and if the armed forces can't be bothered to push for a better design, then the "companies" just persist with what they're already doing until new orders come. 

If we 'de-link' the two (e.g. de-link POF from the PA), then what could occur is POF proceeding with a new rifle program - along with the $250-300 m cost of re-tooling the factory, setting-up new polymer supply units, etc - ahead of the PA pushing for a new rifle. POF can market its new rifle for exports (in an effort to recoup the transition costs) and work on cost-reduction. 

However, pulling this off basically requires swelling the MoDP budget accordingly so that it can invest in POF et. al. In fact, this was the original idea of the MoDP - i.e. to copy the Turkish SSM model (the SSM invests in state-owned and private sector defence products separately from armed forces requirements, enabling the Turkish industry to advance separately). 

Sadly, the practical manifestation of this effort is basically taking money away from one branch and then giving it to another branch. We get feudal over this stuff so you can imagine why it was a non-starter.

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## Armchair

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Functionally, it seems HIT, PAC, POF and KSEW operate like supply depots of the PA, PAF and PN more so than actual arms companies. Basically, product development is tied to exactly what the armed forces want, and if the armed forces can't be bothered to push for a better design, then the "companies" just persist with what they're already doing until new orders come.
> 
> If we 'de-link' the two (e.g. de-link POF from the PA), then what could occur is POF proceeding with a new rifle program - along with the $250-300 m cost of re-tooling the factory, setting-up new polymer supply units, etc - ahead of the PA pushing for a new rifle. POF can market its new rifle for exports (in an effort to recoup the transition costs) and work on cost-reduction.
> 
> However, pulling this off basically requires swelling the MoDP budget accordingly so that it can invest in POF et. al. In fact, this was the original idea of the MoDP - i.e. to copy the Turkish SSM model (the SSM invests in state-owned and private sector defence products separately from armed forces requirements, enabling the Turkish industry to advance separately).
> 
> Sadly, the practical manifestation of this effort is basically taking money away from one branch and then giving it to another branch. We get feudal over this stuff so you can imagine why it was a non-starter.



That is an interesting insight. There may be some additional issues. Like:

1. These ancillary organizations are sometimes seen as a way to ease into retirement
2. The mindset of the military does not work with regards to R&D, generally speaking, there are exceptions of course.
3. Technical competence takes a back burner when the people running the show (armed forces officers) don't have that capability to understand. There is a saying in the US that only a good programmer can pick another good programmer.
4. In the end, these state enterprises do not have much of a profit motive. The employees rightfully think they have employment for life. There is little incentive to reach for that extra mile. 

A practical approach may be to make these organizations independent of the military. The initial management can perhaps come from a mix of the experienced technical staff within and staff taken in initially from the SPD. 

Corruption is a serious issue and has to be addressed in terms of procurement - anyone making procurement decisions, them and their family should not ever be allowed to leave the country. With very strict punishment for caught cases. Because, even if you make an excellent product, the politics may not allow you to actually produce it. 

The nuclear program of Pakistan was a very successful program. One reason being, perhaps that the management was technically competent. This was run by people who where engineers and had experience with R&D. Not by former military administrators. 

Denel makes a good point that the patient cannot be the doctor. That metaphor may be very insightful here. 

It's not as desperate a situation, its just a matter of time before a handful of key decision-makers realize the issues and begin implementing change. Question is, how far is Pakistan from getting that handful of honest arbitrators?

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## Sine Nomine

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> If we 'de-link' the two (e.g. de-link POF from the PA), then what could occur is POF proceeding with a new rifle program - along with the $250-300 m cost of re-tooling the factory, setting-up new polymer supply units, etc - ahead of the PA pushing for a new rifle. POF can market its new rifle for exports (in an effort to recoup the transition costs) and work on cost-reduction.


What would happen to Army Officals in there.


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## Armchair-General

Aren't hk


MUSTAKSHAF said:


> What would happen to Army Officals in there.


Remove them, aside from testing and stating the specifications of the weapons, they have no other use.

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## Sine Nomine

Armchair-General said:


> Aren't hk
> 
> Remove them, aside from testing and stating the specifications of the weapons, they have no other use.


Then forget de-linking


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## django

Perhaps these may be put to the test.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1002315234353303558


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## Zarvan

django said:


> Perhaps these may be put to the test.
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1002315234353303558


No they won't come. But China is catching up with rest of the world in small arms.

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## django

Zarvan said:


> No they won't come. But China is catching up with rest of the world in small arms.


Hazrat no harm in evaluating the product, we are under no obligation to procure it, I suspect it is a upgrade of type 81, a fine assault rifle.Kudos Hazrat


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## Zarvan

django said:


> Hazrat no harm in evaluating the product, we are under no obligation to procure it, I suspect it is a upgrade of type 81, a fine assault rifle.Kudos Hazrat


Well on second though they should be tested and if they our Armed Forces tests they can be adopted for our Police Force.

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## django

Zarvan said:


> Well on second though they should be tested and if they our Armed Forces tests they can be adopted for our Police Force.


And we can be sure they will be a darn sight cheaper than any western rifle we are considering but never the less I believe the best rifle should be selected.Kudos Hazrat

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## Zarvan

django said:


> And we can be sure they will be a darn sight cheaper than any western rifle we are considering but never the less I believe the best rifle should be selected.Kudos Hazrat


If they pass tests great which I doubt specially our summer tests that is where Guns fail. Winter tests are passed by pretty much every Rifle but summer is the one where game changes







5 countries responded to the Indian RFP

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## denel

Zarvan said:


> If they pass tests great which I doubt specially our summer tests that is where Guns fail. Winter tests are passed by pretty much every Rifle but summer is the one where game changes
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 5 countries responded to the Indian RFP


Man @Zarvan , you need R4; it will pass thru both winter and summer with flying colours.


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## Zarvan

denel said:


> Man @Zarvan , you need R4; it will pass thru both winter and summer with flying colours.


What is R4 ???


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## gangsta_rap

Zarvan said:


> What is R4 ???


South African variant of the Israeli Galil.

Hey if we can borrow the cornershot (POF eye) idea from Israel might as well borrow a few other things too

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## django

denel said:


> Man @Zarvan , you need R4; it will pass thru both winter and summer with flying colours.


Sir we are not looking for a 5.56mm rifle, though I am sure the R4 is a fine rifle.Kudos



Zarvan said:


> What is R4 ???


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vektor_R4

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## Zarvan




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## Zarvan

*Eurosatory 2018: Beretta presents its short barrel ARX200 short-barrel rifle*

Stelios Kanavakis

_Senior Defence Analyst_

Beretta Defense Technologies is showcasing the latest addition to its line of rifles, the ARX200 with a 12” barrel. A rifle that will equip the Qatari Army after the contract signed last March.





*The new BDT ARX200 12" barrel rifle will be used by the Qatari Army (Picture source Army Recognition)*

BDT established in January 2018 a joint venture with the Qatari holdings company Barzan, named “Bindig”, the Qatari name for rifle.

Army Recognition has learned that the contract is for 30.000 ARX200 12”-barrel rifles and 10.000 Beretta M92 pistols. The total contract is valued at EUR 70 million and deliveries will start in the following months.

http://armyrecognition.com/eurosato...s_short_barrel_arx200_short-barrel_rifle.html

@Horus @Path-Finder @Tipu7 @Sulman Badshah


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## pzfz

denel said:


> Man @Zarvan , you need R4; it will pass thru both winter and summer with flying colours.


I asked you this before, any plans for a 762x51 r4 - i know there's a 762 nato for the first galil? If there was, r4 should've/could've been the rifle for Pak way back in the 80s. I know i'll buy one for myself. Have shot a couple of new lm5/6/7s. Simple for a non-OECD nation's soldier to operate, and reliable and accurate enough. But the fact still remains - NO NEED FOR A NEW RIFLE! Small order for SFs at most.


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## Zarvan

pzfz said:


> I asked you this before, any plans for a 762x51 r4 - i know there's a 762 nato for the first galil? If there was, r4 should've/could've been the rifle for Pak way back in the 80s. I know i'll buy one for myself. Have shot a couple of new lm5/6/7s. Simple for a non-OECD nation's soldier to operate, and reliable and accurate enough. But the fact still remains - NO NEED FOR A NEW RIFLE! Small order for SFs at most.


There is a massive need for new Rifle. G 3 is way to big and heavy and faces lot of Jamming issues. Type 56 heats up only after firing 3 to 4 Magazines. New better and light weight Assault Rifle is need of the hour


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## Armchair-General

Zarvan said:


> There is a massive need for new Rifle. G 3 is way to big and heavy and faces lot of Jamming issues. Type 56 heats up only after firing 3 to 4 Magazines. New better and light weight Assault Rifle is need of the hour


But the type-56 is basically an AK47/m, it should be able to fire much more than that before over heating.

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## denel

pzfz said:


> I asked you this before, any plans for a 762x51 r4 - i know there's a 762 nato for the first galil? If there was, r4 should've/could've been the rifle for Pak way back in the 80s. I know i'll buy one for myself. Have shot a couple of new lm5/6/7s. Simple for a non-OECD nation's soldier to operate, and reliable and accurate enough. But the fact still remains - NO NEED FOR A NEW RIFLE! Small order for SFs at most.


From our side no, we moved away from R1 which was derivative of FN; to R4 in late 70s. All orders for exports have been 5.56mm. If there is a good size order then definitely it is available.


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## Zarvan



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## Valryon

First photos of MSBS 7.62x51. Standard 16" version and DMR with 20" barrel. Pakistani delegation had the opportunity to test them last week.

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## Sulman Badshah

Valryon said:


> First photos of MSBS 7.62x51. Standard 16" version and DMR with 20" barrel. Pakistani delegation had the opportunity to test them last week.


MSBS can fullfill both Caliber required by PA ...

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## django

Hazrat @Zarvan for heavens sake man any new updates from your sources???????

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## Zarvan

django said:


> Hazrat @Zarvan for heavens sake man any new updates from your sources???????


One guy just told us he started a job at very good area I have already told him to find out

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## Zarvan

Exclusive pictures of @fabryka_broni MSBS rifle in 7.62 NATO. 




Ladies and Gentlemen, Tactical Magazine Frag OutExclusive Fabryka Broni "Łucznik" Radom MSBS-7,62N. 
@Sulman Badshah @Tipu7 @Horus @balixd @Vergennes


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## ZedZeeshan

Zarvan said:


> Exclusive pictures of @fabryka_broni MSBS rifle in 7.62 NATO.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ladies and Gentlemen, Tactical Magazine Frag OutExclusive Fabryka Broni "Łucznik" Radom MSBS-7,62N.
> @Sulman Badshah @Tipu7 @Horus @balixd @Vergennes


Its from which country..??


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## Zarvan

ZedZeeshan said:


> Its from which country..??


It's from Poland

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## ZedZeeshan

After number of visits to Poland which are mentioned , going of Pak Army chief might have resulted signing a contract because for some time Army chief is signing most of the defense deals..


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## Sine Nomine

Not a Good Choice.


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## Amaa'n

AK platform all the way, that is all I have to say, ut it in 556, 545,or 762, it will eat uo everything anywhere......

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## Army research

balixd said:


> AK platform all the way, that is all I have to say, ut it in 556, 545,or 762, it will eat uo everything anywhere......


Sadly western slave minds still makes us think that Oh M4 is so good compared to crummy ruski crap,
I have used both and personally, for fun and leisure hunting and CQB urban warfare i would use a M4 but for desert, mountain , snow, mud , river , plains , coastal warfare an AK is as reliable as you can get from a weapon and considering our main enemy is India, not invading other nations with airborne troops to fight in their cities against insurgents,
AK zinda baad

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## Path-Finder

If you pay attention to this image then it clearly shows rifles with suppressor on, Rifles with optics. DMR Rifles. It shows a GMPG with a Thermal scope on, something Pakistani forces do to their GPMG and something desperately needed to replace WW2 era MG3.

An anti material rifle and a guy standing in the background with a sniper rifle, next to him you can spot 2 barrels of sniper rifles as well.

All things that were a requirement of the rifle trials and other things that the armed forces needs to induct replacing outdated platforms is visible in this picture. So naturally it makes sense that Poland offers it all under one umbrella. The thinking seems to be is purchase all from one vendor instead of buying one rifle from one vendor. GMPG from another vendor. Sniper rifles from different vendors.



MUSTAKSHAF said:


> Not a Good Choice.


Why?



Zarvan said:


> One guy just told us he started a job at very good area I have already told him to find out


Hazrat @Zarvan that means 'twadi SCAR di phen di siri' Army aint done looking for rifles!

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## Amaa'n

Path-Finder said:


> If you pay attention to this image then it clearly shows rifles with suppressor on, Rifles with optics. DMR Rifles. It shows a GMPG with a Thermal scope on, something Pakistani forces do to their GPMG and something desperately needed to replace WW2 era MG3.
> 
> An anti material rifle and a guy standing in the background with a sniper rifle, next to him you can spot 2 barrels of sniper rifles as well.
> 
> All things that were a requirement of the rifle trials and other things that the armed forces needs to induct replacing outdated platforms is visible in this picture. So naturally it makes sense that Poland offers it all under one umbrella. The thinking seems to be is purchase all from one vendor instead of buying one rifle from one vendor. GMPG from another vendor. Sniper rifles from different vendors.
> 
> 
> Why?
> 
> 
> Hazrat @Zarvan that means 'twadi SCAR di phen di siri' Army aint done looking for rifles!


Correctly spotted my dear, they tested out all weapons in each category and it woukd make sense too.....but what they going to do with 7.62x39.....this variant is still under development.....
I believe negotiations did not go welk with CZ , otherwise that is much better option, CZ has a history of developing quality firearms as compared to Polish.....and as you said.....looks like ScAR di phen di siri....

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

balixd said:


> Correctly spotted my dear, they tested out all weapons in each category and it woukd make sense too.....but what they going to do with 7.62x39.....this variant is still under development.....
> I believe negotiations did not go welk with CZ , otherwise that is much better option, CZ has a history of developing quality firearms as compared to Polish.....and as you said.....looks like ScAR di phen di siri....


Is it me or does it seem rare these days to see firearm OEMs approve of 3rd party sales? Firstly, not many countries are actually manufacturing new rifle designs under license. Secondly, I can't find a buying country being allowed to sell an OEM's designs _*unless *_the OEM is an equity partner in the whole thing.

I'm starting to think ... to export a new rifle, you'll basically have to own the IP. It's possible (because it's a new entrant) Polish OEMs (e.g. Fabryka Broni, ZMT, etc) are willing to maybe approve of POF selling copies of their rifles provided the Polish companies win every Pakistani contract?

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## Zarvan

balixd said:


> Correctly spotted my dear, they tested out all weapons in each category and it woukd make sense too.....but what they going to do with 7.62x39.....this variant is still under development.....
> I believe negotiations did not go welk with CZ , otherwise that is much better option, CZ has a history of developing quality firearms as compared to Polish.....and as you said.....looks like ScAR di phen di siri....


SCAR is still in the game this has nothing related to SCAR it is basically for that 500 Marksman Rifle which we were looking to buy from a company of UK but now we have decided to go for this one @Stealth @Path-Finder


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## Amaa'n

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Is it me or does it seem rare these days to see firearm OEMs approve of 3rd party sales? Firstly, not many countries are actually manufacturing new rifle designs under license. Secondly, I can't find a buying country being allowed to sell an OEM's designs _*unless *_the OEM is an equity partner in the whole thing.
> 
> I'm starting to think ... to export a new rifle, you'll basically have to own the IP. It's possible (because it's a new entrant) Polish OEMs (e.g. Fabryka Broni, ZMT, etc) are willing to maybe approve of POF selling copies of their rifles provided the Polish companies win every Pakistani contract?


Yes, indeed thats possible even the russians are not allowing anyone to produce their AK12 variants or AN94 or AEK 971...
Polish are not well establoshed in the industry yet with this design it wouod make sense for them to broaden their horizon, allowing POF to produce their weapons and then be sold to.Muslim countries ? Could be way of their marketing too

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## Zarvan

Basically instead of going for these now we would go for these

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## Amaa'n

Zarvan said:


> SCAR is still in the game this has nothing related to SCAR it is basically for that 500 Marksman Rifle which we were looking to buy from a company of UK but now we have decided to go for this one @Stealth @Path-Finder


You are going to be left heart broken dear....



Zarvan said:


> Basically instead of going for these now we would go for these


Tell me one thing, which gun you think wpuld perform better in dmr or sniper role? The brits or the polish? Do remember that brits have more experience in this industry, their weapon os time tested.....

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## Zarvan

balixd said:


> You are going to be left heart broken dear....
> 
> 
> Tell me one thing, which gun you think wpuld perform better in dmr or sniper role? The brits or the polish? Do remember that brits have more experience in this industry, their weapon os time tested.....


I have no idea although I prefer this Rifle from Britain for Marksman Role. Also Britain also offers TOT 




By the way I am telling on what @Horus is telling me


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## Sine Nomine

Path-Finder said:


> Why?


It is under development and it uses system same as AR-15.


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> I have no idea although I prefer this Rifle from Britain for Marksman Role. Also Britain also offers TOT
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By the way I am telling on what @Horus is telling me



Muffakir. This is NOT a British gun! It's an American gun by LMT. Most importantly there is NO ToT!!!








MUSTAKSHAF said:


> It is under development and it uses system same as AR-15.



Its a DMR, if its accurate and reliable then that's great. The LMT L129A1 is based on AR too!


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## Zarvan

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> Not a Good Choice.


We are not going to adopt it without testing in our terrains. Still if it passes tests should be adopted as we have Police to equip also


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## Inception-06

notice the G-3

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## Sine Nomine

Path-Finder said:


> Its a DMR, if its accurate and reliable then that's great. The LMT L129A1 is based on AR too!


DMR with short stroke is good choice.



Zarvan said:


> We are not going to adopt it without testing in our terrains. Still if it passes tests should be adopted as we have Police to equip also


Why not make a fu@king rifle ourselves.



Inception-06 said:


> View attachment 483023
> 
> 
> notice the G-3


Nothing sepecial about it,it has only got Pictinny Rails,a hand grip,a collapsing stock and a Night Sight.


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## Zarvan

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> DMR with short stroke is good choice.
> 
> 
> Why not make a fu@king rifle ourselves.
> 
> 
> Nothing sepecial about it,it has only got Pictinny Rails,a hand grip,a collapsing stock and a Night Sight.


That would take too much time. We are in desperate need.


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## Sine Nomine

Zarvan said:


> That would take too much time. We are in desperate need.


Not more then 6 months to build a prototype and an year to test it,max 2 years for full development of sound system.


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## Zarvan

Inception-06 said:


> View attachment 483023
> 
> 
> notice the G-3


This G3 is even more heavier than all previous versions


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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> That would take too much time. We are in desperate need.


Lolz, even the discussion on an online forum (this very thread) is THREE fking years old!

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## Amaa'n

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> Not more then 6 months to build a prototype and an year to test it,max 2 years for full development of sound system.


Theres very simple options in front of us, we just have to design our rifle around it, DI or Piston driven in AR platform or gas blowback piston driven in AK platform....just pick a platform and go ahead with it......
A prime example is of IWI - Galil, how they redeisgned their own rifle based on the AK platform and it works good for them......leave tavor out of it, it is still not inducted completely......



Zarvan said:


> This G3 is even more heavier than all previous versions


Requirements are changed bhai sb....we must consider assualt rifle of prime importance then a battle rifle.....

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

balixd said:


> Yes, indeed thats possible even the russians are not allowing anyone to produce their AK12 variants or AN94 or AEK 971...
> Polish are not well establoshed in the industry yet with this design it wouod make sense for them to broaden their horizon, allowing POF to produce their weapons and then be sold to.Muslim countries ? Could be way of their marketing too


Basically... Maybe co-fund a MSBS-based rifle that POF owns as IP?

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## Zarvan

balixd said:


> Theres very simple options in front of us, we just have to design our rifle around it, DI or Piston driven in AR platform or gas blowback piston driven in AK platform....just pick a platform and go ahead with it......
> A prime example is of IWI - Galil, how they redeisgned their own rifle based on the AK platform and it works good for them......leave tavor out of it, it is still not inducted completely......
> 
> 
> Requirements are changed bhai sb....we must consider assualt rifle of prime importance then a battle rifle.....


What on earth is a difference between a Battle Rifle and a Assault Rifle I don't get this thing


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Zarvan said:


> Basically instead of going for these now we would go for these


Yeah unless you are stupid.


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## Zarvan

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Yeah unless you are stupid.


Tell this to @Horus he told me that. Also Rifle from trials have been selected and MSBS was never tested. So this is for DMR version


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Zarvan said:


> Tell this to @Horus he told me that. Also Rifle from trials have been selected and MSBS was never tested. So this is for DMR version


Makes no sense when you have home grown DMRs n Sniper rifles... unless you get an anti material rifle.

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## Amaa'n

Zarvan said:


> What on earth is a difference between a Battle Rifle and a Assault Rifle I don't get this thing


When we say Assault rifle then as the name suggests its for Assualt teams where you could be engaging targets from 100m to 300mtrs range, shooter is on the move......
Battle rifle can refer to a rifle where the shooter is mostly static and engaging targets b/w 200m to 450m range or beyond.....DMR is where you are engaging targets at any range but for precision rather than suppresive fire......
SBR is for CQC or where target enaged is with in 100m range, shooter is mobile, rapid extraction team

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## Zarvan

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Makes no sense when you have home grown DMRs n Sniper rifles... unless you get an anti material rifle.


Most likely we are not satisfied with them


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## Amaa'n

Zarvan said:


> Most likely we are not satisfied with them


Bhai LSR has won and competed against top of of the line Sniper Rifles in numerous competition.....it even competed against surgeon, blaser and AWM.....and won.....



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Basically... Maybe co-fund a MSBS-based rifle that POF owns as IP?


If they wanted that, then thefy would have donevso years ago with Sarsilmaz.....they were going to import an initial batch of 556 Carbine along with handguns and shotties....dont know why that idea was dropped



Zarvan said:


> Most likely we are not satisfied with them


Also let me add that few examples of battle rifles are
.303, m14 ebr, G3, Galil 7.62


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Zarvan said:


> Most likely we are not satisfied with them


PLEASE STOP BEING STUPID.


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## Zarvan

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> PLEASE STOP BEING STUPID.


I am just saying the obvious thing. We are testing new DMR which these new pictures prove and even in SCAR and other Rifle program DMR version are part of the package which we are looking for along with Assault Rifles


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## AR KHAN

Sweet people, sweet presumptions..!
It is being speculated/believed that the delegation is for trails & tests of The picture is when Gen. Bajwa visited the "*Centrum Szkolenia Wojsk Ladowych" Land Forces Training Center *during his visit to Poland and he was briefed about the Center and range of equipment their.


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## Sine Nomine

balixd said:


> Theres very simple options in front of us, we just have to design our rifle around it, DI or Piston driven in AR platform or gas blowback piston driven in AK platform....just pick a platform and go ahead with it......
> A prime example is of IWI - Galil, how they redeisgned their own rifle based on the AK platform and it works good for them......leave tavor out of it, it is still not inducted completely......


It's not very difficult once you have an established Industrial complex like POF.
Pakistan is Just Not Doing it,otherwise there are just 4 main Systems.
We have Just make decisions regarding 
1-Caliber choice.
2-Type of Operating system that would make weapon running in all Areas of Pakistan under adverse conditions+Ease of mass production.
3-Selection of Material, which would give us ease of manufacturing in all times(War and Peace)+ has enough tolerance to bear Heat,Cold,Sand and Humidity more than present in Pakistan. 

Then there is design phase in which we have to choose two things,
_Type of Loading System,_
1-Roller Delayed Blow back operating system (G3,MG1A3L
2-Long Stroke Gas actuated Piston driven system(FN FAL,AK 47)
3-Short Stroke Gas actuated Piston driven system(SVD,M4,AR15,AUG)
4-Direct impingement.(M-16)
Out of all these only Long Stroke Gas Piston system would work in all conditions smoothly.

_Then locking System,only two types are widely used,_
1-Rotary Locking (AK-47,M16)
2-Tilting breechblock (SVT-40, SKS, StG-44, and FN FAL)
Rotary is better because Tilting breechblock is difficult to manufacture.And would make a system heavy.

Now comes Ergonomics,Modulation,type of Material Steel,aluminium and Polymer (there sub types also) usage for construction of different main parts like Upper Receiver,Lower Receiver,Barrel,Bolt & Carrier,Piston,Gas Regulator, Trigger Group housing and Mechanism itself.
After that, on Drawing board and CAD,we would design and simulate operation of our various parts.
Shape of Parts,Movement of Bolt in Receiver etc.

We are ready for construction of Prototype and Testing.
*Easier said than done but a country like Pakistan can do it for sure,in no time.*


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## YeBeWarned

balixd said:


> Bhai LSR has won and competed against top of of the line Sniper Rifles in numerous competition.....it even competed against surgeon, blaser and AWM.....and won.....
> 
> 
> If they wanted that, then thefy would have donevso years ago with Sarsilmaz.....they were going to import an initial batch of 556 Carbine along with handguns and shotties....dont know why that idea was dropped
> 
> 
> Also let me add that few examples of battle rifles are
> .303, m14 ebr, G3, Galil 7.62



how would you rate Bern 2 ? compared to AK series ..


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## Path-Finder

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1014117839626752001


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## Amaa'n

Path-Finder said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1014117839626752001


@Zarvan bhai, may I know the reason for this obsession with the rifle procurement? How is new rifle be it scar or bren or arx going to help our troops? In CT ops?



Starlord said:


> how would you rate Bern 2 ? compared to AK series ..


Never used the rifle so cant comment on it man.....

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## Zarvan

balixd said:


> @Zarvan bhai, may I know the reason for this obsession with the rifle procurement? How is new rifle be it scar or bren or arx going to help our troops? In CT ops?
> 
> 
> Never used the rifle so cant comment on it man.....






The Policeman was using Type 56 and fighting terrorists and if you watch carefully his Rifle got Jammed twice. And infantry still is largest part of Army and than you need well equipped Police also so that is why I am obssesed

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## fitpOsitive

Zarvan said:


> The Policeman was using Type 56 and fighting terrorists and if you watch carefully his Rifle got Jammed twice. And infantry still is largest part of Army and than you need well equipped Police also so that is why I am obssesed


Ab bandok ki safai nai hogi tu woh jam hi hogi...manufacturer ka kia kasoor.

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## Rana4pak

Zarvan said:


> The Policeman was using Type 56 and fighting terrorists and if you watch carefully his Rifle got Jammed twice. And infantry still is largest part of Army and than you need well equipped Police also so that is why I am obssesed


Your concer is genuine may ALLAH help us in selection of best gun for our armed forces


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## Zarvan



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## Amaa'n

Zarvan said:


> The Policeman was using Type 56 and fighting terrorists and if you watch carefully his Rifle got Jammed twice. And infantry still is largest part of Army and than you need well equipped Police also so that is why I am obssesed


Yar I cant see anything in this video and as far as jamming is concerned than it can b of multiple reasons.....


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## fitpOsitive

Zarvan said:


>


Out class.


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## django

Zarvan said:


>


@Path-Finder it seems the good Hazrat has finally been won over by the Bren.

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## Rafi

CZ ongoing negotiations on ToT, licence building, export and finance ongoing. Bren has won competition, only reason to go to others is if negotiations fail.

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## Naveed66

CZ 807
Coming soon to Pakistan








Rafi said:


> CZ ongoing negotiations on ToT, licence building, export and finance ongoing. Bren has won competition, only reason to go to others is if negotiations fail.


If fail, I think they will go for MSBS


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## Sine Nomine

balixd said:


> Yar I cant see anything in this video and as far as jamming is concerned than it can b of multiple reasons.....


Ak isn't a weapon in operational as many think of it,like running without any cleaning and care.
It has habit of not extracting when chamber isn't clean,especially certain type of ammo causes jamming if rifle isn't cleaned after fireing within 24 hours.


Rafi said:


> CZ ongoing negotiations on ToT, licence building, export and finance ongoing. Bren has won competition, only reason to go to others is if negotiations fail.


That's not good,SCAR H is better.


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## Zarvan

Naveed66 said:


> CZ 807
> Coming soon to Pakistan
> View attachment 484493
> 
> 
> 
> If fail, I think they will go for MSBS


@Horus Thoughts


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## Path-Finder

django said:


> @Path-Finder it seems the good Hazrat has finally been won over by the Bren.


The Muffakiry & Derwaishy has been enriched ​

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## AR KHAN

If i remember, it is not discussed here, "CZ & Hungary has signed agreement for licensed production for CZ P-07/09 pistol series, the CZ Scorpion sub-machine guns and the CZ Bren 2 rifles" back in April 18. 
Point to be noted, Polish rifle lost to CZ.


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## khanasifm

Naveed66 said:


> CZ 807
> Coming soon to Pakistan
> View attachment 484493
> 
> 
> 
> If fail, I think they will go for MSBS



Is it official ? No official
News ??


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## Naveed66

khanasifm said:


> Is it official ? No official
> News ??


At the moment it seem Pakistan is adopting CZ 807 in x39. And final negotiations is taking place. Soon we will hear more from them


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## Zarvan

Naveed66 said:


> At the moment it seem Pakistan is adopting CZ 807 in x39. And final negotiations is taking place. Soon we will hear more from them


There are two tenders. One to replace G3 and one to replace Type 56


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## Amaa'n

Zarvan said:


> There are two tenders. One to replace G3 and one to replace Type 56


X39 is priority, 51N can be pushed back for laters....that means allowing time for CZ to develop further on 51n platform....do not underestimate CZ.....they have a name in firearm industry

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## Naveed66

Zarvan said:


> There are two tenders. One to replace G3 and one to replace Type 56


From what we see so far. It is clear Pakistan want a rifle in 7.62 either in x39 or x51. So it will be illogical to go for two separate tenders. In this scenario the most suitable options will be CZ 807, MSBS and MPT76. Btw We can forget getting rifles like FN SCAR or Beretta arx 200. even if we select SCAR are you sure FN will continue to provide firearms during wars ? Given that it have very strong relations with US firms.On the other hand Beretta arx 200 have very dim chance almost no.
SO its between Czech CZ 807 BREN and Polish MSBS now !


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## monitor

A comparison chart of all under trial assault rifle would helpful for understanding pros and cons of different rifle.


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## denel

Naveed66 said:


> CZ 807
> Coming soon to Pakistan
> View attachment 484493
> 
> 
> 
> If fail, I think they will go for MSBS


It wont fail . CZ is best decision. They will not let this great opportunity go by. But my concern is if someone sells out on your side and is corrupt to not go for it with vested interests.

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## JPMM

denel said:


> It wont fail . CZ is best decision. They will not let this great opportunity go by. But my concern is if someone sells out on your side and is corrupt to not go for it with vested interests.



OK, my vote is for CZ too. Here in Portugal we will replace the G3 too, my choice is HK416/417, my second choice is CZ. CZ is the best for Pakistan, Operational Way, Political Way and Long Term Way. Portugal & South Africa vote CZ!!!
Thanks

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## denel

JPMM said:


> OK, my vote is for CZ too. Here in Portugal we will replace the G3 too, my choice is HK416/417, my second choice is CZ. CZ is the best for Pakistan, Operational Way, Political Way and Long Term Way. Portugal & South Africa vote CZ!!!
> Thanks


pa. bon dia.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

denel said:


> It wont fail . CZ is best decision. They will not let this great opportunity go by. But my concern is if someone sells out on your side and is corrupt to not go for it with vested interests.





JPMM said:


> OK, my vote is for CZ too. Here in Portugal we will replace the G3 too, my choice is HK416/417, my second choice is CZ. CZ is the best for Pakistan, Operational Way, Political Way and Long Term Way. Portugal & South Africa vote CZ!!!
> Thanks


So if, in theory, POF picks the CZ, would Portugal and South Africa buy Pakistani-made CZs?

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## JPMM

denel said:


> pa. bon dia.


Olá, aqui é boa Noite!


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## denel

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> So if, in theory, POF picks the CZ, would Portugal and South Africa buy Pakistani-made CZs?


SA will never buy small arms from external sources; it is a govt policy to buy local. We have already a local armscor replacement for R4 in flight right now but there is no pressing requirement to move for R4 at present. Similarly Vector is producing side arms for similar use for both police/army. Similarly for sniping, mortars, LMGs are all local which evolved from prior experiences/licences.

But here in SA, CZ is one of the largest sellers in personal sidearms market. So there is an opportunity for hunting rifles, 9mm, 9mmK range. 

Personally own CZ-75B for over 28+ yrs. Never let me down. I have tried the Norinco clones, Tangolio all from same copied but CZ is CZ and commands a much higher price locally than any other foreign makes. Taurus is the other most popular one followed by Vector.



JPMM said:


> Olá, aqui é boa Noite!


bom amigo, obrigado. amo pão portugues

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

denel said:


> SA will never buy small arms from external sources; it is a govt policy to buy local. We have already a local armscor replacement for R4 in flight right now but there is no pressing requirement to move for R4 at present. Similarly Vector is producing side arms for similar use for both police/army. Similarly for sniping, mortars, LMGs are all local which evolved from prior experiences/licences.
> 
> But here in SA, CZ is one of the largest sellers in personal sidearms market. So there is an opportunity for hunting rifles, 9mm, 9mmK range.
> 
> Personally own CZ-75B for over 28+ yrs. Never let me down. I have tried the Norinco clones, Tangolio all from same copied but CZ is CZ and commands a much higher price locally than any other foreign makes. Taurus is the other most popular one followed by Vector.


What if POF committed to an offset package wherein it bought a stake in Vector? It'd be FDI from Pakistan's end, but if done correctly, it could be a way for POF to bring in hard-currency to Pakistan via Vector's profits (e.g. by selling goods to the regional market in southern Africa)?


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## denel

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> What if POF committed to an offset package wherein it bought a stake in Vector? It'd be FDI from Pakistan's end, but if done correctly, it could be a way for POF to bring in hard-currency to Pakistan via Vector's profits (e.g. by selling goods to the regional market in southern Africa)?


That would be a huge challenge. Vector makes already fairly good profits via exports to local regional markets as well as Far East. At present any outsourcing of manpower is a political suicide in our country given the bad bad dealings with south asians post Guptas.


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## Zarvan

Naveed66 said:


> From what we see so far. It is clear Pakistan want a rifle in 7.62 either in x39 or x51. So it will be illogical to go for two separate tenders. In this scenario the most suitable options will be CZ 807, MSBS and MPT76. Btw We can forget getting rifles like FN SCAR or Beretta arx 200. even if we select SCAR are you sure FN will continue to provide firearms during wars ? Given that it have very strong relations with US firms.On the other hand Beretta arx 200 have very dim chance almost no.
> SO its between Czech CZ 807 BREN and Polish MSBS now !


FN is offering entire TOT and License to export and in fact there are more chances of SCAR coming than BREN as of now. SCAR will be produced in Pakistan so will be the Rifle which would be selected in x 39 category. @balixd No Sir x 39 is not the priority in fact there are more chances that Pakistan may drop this caliber.

@Horus


----------



## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> FN is offering entire TOT and License to export and in fact there are more chances of SCAR coming than BREN as of now. SCAR will be produced in Pakistan so will be the Rifle which would be selected in x 39 category. @balixd No Sir x 39 is not the priority in fact there are more chances that Pakistan may drop this caliber.
> 
> @Horus



everyone is now of the opinion that the likelihood of FN is null. But you carry on. Its July now where is the tender selection?

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## Naveed66

Zarvan said:


> FN is offering entire TOT and License to export and in fact there are more chances of SCAR coming than BREN as of now. SCAR will be produced in Pakistan so will be the Rifle which would be selected in x 39 category. @balixd No Sir x 39 is not the priority in fact there are more chances that Pakistan may drop this caliber.
> 
> @Horus


So SCAR have more chances even without signing any LOU. and we haven't heard anything from them. SCAR is a weapon that Pakistan will purchase in small numbers for SSG and not for service rifles. And SCAR cost so much that European countries have difficulties in purchasing it .



monitor said:


> A comparison chart of all under trial assault rifle would helpful for understanding pros and cons of different rifle.


SCAR = expensive and political reasons in future
ARX 200 = expensive 
CZ 807= cost effective then SCAR and ARX
MSBS= cost effective and not in trials

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> everyone is now of the opinion that the likelihood of FN is null. But you carry on. Its July now where is the tender selection?


We are more in talks with FN than any company else Janab than if people are making assumptions based on some hilarious notions than I can do nothing about it. We as of now as 8 Frigates and Corvettes 4 Corvettes and 8 Submarines on order but we somehow we are short of money for buying Assault Rifles. And secondly we didn't got drunk and than decided to start Military trials. We knew price of each rifle when we went ahead and started the trials. So please for GOD love of GOD stop coming up with amusingly hilarious situations Janab. 

@Naveed66 


Naveed66 said:


> So SCAR have more chances even without signing any LOU. and we haven't heard anything from them. SCAR is a weapon that Pakistan will purchase in small numbers for SSG and not for service rifles. And SCAR cost so much that European countries have difficulties in purchasing it .
> 
> 
> SCAR = expensive and political reasons in future
> ARX 200 = expensive
> CZ 807= cost effective then SCAR and ARX
> MSBS= cost effective and not in trials


So you assumption  is based on that LOU


----------



## Naveed66

Zarvan said:


> We are more in talks with FN than any company else Janab than if people are making assumptions based on some hilarious notions than I can do nothing about it. We as of now as 8 Frigates and Corvettes 4 Corvettes and 8 Submarines on order but we somehow we are short of money for buying Assault Rifles. And secondly we didn't got drunk and than decided to start Military trials. We knew price of each rifle when we went ahead and started the trials. So please for GOD love of GOD stop coming up with amusingly hilarious situations Janab.
> 
> @Naveed66
> 
> So you assumption  is based on that LOU


Do you know the definition of letter of understanding ? 
Did FN announce that they are negotiating like CZ did ?
Do you think FN will continue to support during war as they are highly influenced by US ?


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## Zarvan

Naveed66 said:


> Do you know the definition of letter of understanding ?
> Did FN announce that they are negotiating like CZ did ?
> Do you think FN will continue to support during war as they are highly influenced by US ?


Yes FN is negotiating with and with them and I know what LOU means and I know How many of these LOU are signed by our Army and they do nothing so if your entire notion was based on that assumption than I am only laughing here. So Good luck with that. CZ also got bashed by Army for leaking the things. You have no idea How pissed Army was on CZ.


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## Naveed66

Zarvan said:


> Yes FN is negotiating with and with them and I know what LOU means and I know How many of these LOU are signed by our Army and they do nothing so if your entire notion was based on that assumption than I am only laughing here. So Good luck with that. CZ also got bashed by Army for leaking the things. You have no idea How pissed Army was on CZ.


My notion is not based on that assumption. But FN SCAR really cost so much and Pakistan have always look for cost effective solution. If SCAR is purchased it will be very surprising but it have less chances than BREN.


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## Zarvan

Naveed66 said:


> My notion is not based on that assumption. But FN SCAR really cost so much and Pakistan have always look for cost effective solution. If SCAR is purchased it will be very surprising but it have less chances than BREN.


We knew about the cost when we decided to bring the SCAR in for trials Janab. We didn't just woke up and started trials without knowing the Rifle price. We knew about the price from day one. And G3 at its time was one of the most expensive Rifles. When we started inducting it in 1967. When it comes to Rifles no hardly go for cost effective thing because we plan to use them for next 50 years. First thing which was looked at was the costs of every Rifle only than trials were started.


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> We are more in talks with FN than any company else Janab than if people are making assumptions based on some hilarious notions than I can do nothing about it. We as of now as 8 Frigates and Corvettes 4 Corvettes and 8 Submarines on order but we somehow we are short of money for buying Assault Rifles. And secondly we didn't got drunk and than decided to start Military trials. We knew price of each rifle when we went ahead and started the trials. So please for GOD love of GOD stop coming up with amusingly hilarious situations Janab.
> 
> @Naveed66
> 
> So you assumption  is based on that LOU



Had ho gai hai. I pitty your uttla khana Janab.


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## khanasifm

Until it’s official it’s just here-say

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## AMG_12

Thread derailed by Zarvan. 


khanasifm said:


> Until it’s official it’s just here-say


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## Zarvan

Game.Invade said:


> Thread derailed by Zarvan.


I didn't derailed the thread I just told what I know and on this case my source here is well known and I have confirmed from few other guys including one guy who went at one of those places where trials were being conducted. He also gave me the picture which I posted here. And that guy was supporter of Pakistan going for MPT-76 but even he was told by Army guys that SCAR is way ahead in trials.


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> I didn't derailed the thread I just told what I know and on this case my source here is well known and I have confirmed from few other guys including one guy who went at one of those places where trials were being conducted. He also gave me the picture which I posted here. And that guy was supporter of Pakistan going for MPT-76 but even he was told by Army guys that SCAR is way ahead in trials.


 you are like a PML-N for FN SCAR

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## Umar Ahmad 75

Well it’s official with CZ the technology transfer is of the CZ 806 and 807 '!
POF will be manufacturing these, but the problem isn't over yet ... 
The effectiveness of these rifles will only be obtained if the Army is able to provide ample amount of attachments for the rifles such as the ACOG sights , EO Tech , Reflex sights so the weapon can be used to its maximum. Not only that there are other attachments to improve accuracy or to change the class of the weapon like the Fore grip , Angular Fore grip , Custumizable stock ( to convert a 7.62*39 into a DMR! ) , AN PEQ’s as integrated laser modules. 
These are few thing I have mentioned out of a long list of attachments available that actually make a soldiers life a bit easier by giving the upper hand in battle which can lead to reducing the casualties in the battle (not to say that martyrdom is a bad thing but officers and soldiers both have families back at home the least the army should do is to provide state of the art equipment in the battle zone !).


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## Path-Finder

Umar Ahmad 75 said:


> View attachment 485268
> View attachment 485269
> View attachment 485270
> View attachment 485263
> View attachment 485264
> Well it’s official with CZ the technology transfer is of the CZ 806 and 807 '!
> POF will be manufacturing these, but the problem isn't over yet ...
> The effectiveness of these rifles will only be obtained if the Army is able to provide ample amount of attachments for the rifles such as the ACOG sights , EO Tech , Reflex sights so the weapon can be used to its maximum. Not only that there are other attachments to improve accuracy or to change the class of the weapon like the Fore grip , Angular Fore grip , Custumizable stock ( to convert a 7.62*39 into a DMR! ) , AN PEQ’s as integrated laser modules.
> These are few thing I have mentioned out of a long list of attachments available that actually make a soldiers life a bit easier by giving the upper hand in battle which can lead to reducing the casualties in the battle (not to say that martyrdom is a bad thing but officers and soldiers both have families back at home the least the army should do is to provide state of the art equipment in the battle zone !).



FN SCAR? You have been unfair by not even saying anything about the FN SCAR!!


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## Zarvan

Umar Ahmad 75 said:


> View attachment 485268
> View attachment 485269
> View attachment 485270
> View attachment 485263
> View attachment 485264
> Well it’s official with CZ the technology transfer is of the CZ 806 and 807 '!
> POF will be manufacturing these, but the problem isn't over yet ...
> The effectiveness of these rifles will only be obtained if the Army is able to provide ample amount of attachments for the rifles such as the ACOG sights , EO Tech , Reflex sights so the weapon can be used to its maximum. Not only that there are other attachments to improve accuracy or to change the class of the weapon like the Fore grip , Angular Fore grip , Custumizable stock ( to convert a 7.62*39 into a DMR! ) , AN PEQ’s as integrated laser modules.
> These are few thing I have mentioned out of a long list of attachments available that actually make a soldiers life a bit easier by giving the upper hand in battle which can lead to reducing the casualties in the battle (not to say that martyrdom is a bad thing but officers and soldiers both have families back at home the least the army should do is to provide state of the art equipment in the battle zone !).


Every company in the competition is offering entire TOT of Assault Rifles and also latest optics with TOT. SCAR is offering aim point latest red dot sights. Pakistan is also in talks with Belarus for sights production in Pakistan and I hope Pakistan would also consider Turkey in this regard. Their company 3e eos makes dam good Red Dot Sights and so does Aselsan


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Every company in the competition is offering entire TOT of Assault Rifles and also latest optics with TOT. SCAR is offering aim point latest red dot sights. Pakistan is also in talks with Belarus for sights production in Pakistan and I hope Pakistan would also consider Turkey in this regard. Their company 3e eos makes dam good Red Dot Sights and so does Aselsan


How is aimpoint going to give TOT to Pakistan?

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> How is aimpoint going to give TOT to Pakistan?


We are not going to buy TOT of all their products one or two Red Dot Sights will come with TOT


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> We are not going to buy TOT of all their products one or two Red Dot Sights will come with TOT


Aimpoint has never given ToT to date and here you are in lala land that they will give you ToT. 

They will offer a product for purchase not making yourself.

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## AMG_12

We are abusing the term ToT on this forum. SCAR isn't coming, it may just well be used to study the mechanisms just in case Pakistan want to produce it's own assault rifle or tailor a foreign rifle to it's needs.

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Aimpoint has never given ToT to date and here you are in lala land that they will give you ToT.
> 
> They will offer a product for purchase not making yourself.


@Horus told me this. Every Rifle in competition is also offering Sights. CZ have their own and also Beretta and SCAR is offering AIMPOINT. He also told exactly which one I forgot that.



Game.Invade said:


> We are abusing the term ToT on this forum. SCAR isn't coming, it may just well be used to study the mechanisms just in case Pakistan want to produce it's own assault rifle or tailor a foreign rifle to it's needs.


Last I know Pakistan was in talks with SCAR and they were doing great when it comes to talks.


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> @Horus told me this. Every Rifle in competition is also offering Sights. CZ have their own and also Beretta and SCAR is offering AIMPOINT. He also told exactly which one I forgot that.
> 
> 
> Last I know Pakistan was in talks with SCAR and they were doing great when it comes to talks.


ok ask Horus again. I bet EVERYTHING I own your wish is just a wish

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> ok ask Horus again. I bet EVERYTHING I own your wish is just a wish


They are not wishes. I don't know How but Aimpoint Optics is offered by SCAR and why don't you ask @Horus yourself by the way last time when he told this you were here also on this forum and you also asked him the question.


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> They are not wishes. I don't know How but Aimpoint Optics is offered by SCAR and why don't you ask @Horus yourself by the way last time when he told this you were here also on this forum and you also asked him the question.


you have tagged Horus twice now. If you are wrong I hope you have enough rope!!!


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> you have tagged Horus twice now. If you are wrong I hope you have enough rope!!!


Horus told it. That every Rifle is offering sights also as it's part of the tender we issued. And SCAR is offering Aimpoint I have no idea How it would happen but this is what was told and you also talked to Horus because he told same thing here and when he told one of the guys who asked him questions was you


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Horus told it. That every Rifle is offering sights also as it's part of the tender we issued. And SCAR is offering Aimpoint I have no idea How it would happen but this is what was told and you also talked to Horus because he told same thing here and when he told one of the guys who asked him questions was you


Its not written in stone!!


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## Army research

Why on earth can we supposedly make sattelites and miniaturized nuclear warheads but have not been able to develop and field electro optical gun sights ?
This is a those concerned,
All you need is to task researchers at universities to come up with design , establish production facility say at Wah where some infrastructure is present,
Issue dovetail to piccatiny conversion kits ,
No need to buy anything abroad , local research pool increased and if we sell weapons in the future these will bring extra income


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## Kakaspai

Umar Ahmad 75 said:


> View attachment 485268
> View attachment 485269
> View attachment 485270
> View attachment 485263
> View attachment 485264
> Well it’s official with CZ the technology transfer is of the CZ 806 and 807 '!
> POF will be manufacturing these, but the problem isn't over yet ...
> The effectiveness of these rifles will only be obtained if the Army is able to provide ample amount of attachments for the rifles such as the ACOG sights , EO Tech , Reflex sights so the weapon can be used to its maximum. Not only that there are other attachments to improve accuracy or to change the class of the weapon like the Fore grip , Angular Fore grip , Custumizable stock ( to convert a 7.62*39 into a DMR! ) , AN PEQ’s as integrated laser modules.
> These are few thing I have mentioned out of a long list of attachments available that actually make a soldiers life a bit easier by giving the upper hand in battle which can lead to reducing the casualties in the battle (not to say that martyrdom is a bad thing but officers and soldiers both have families back at home the least the army should do is to provide state of the art equipment in the battle zone !).


Its like you just explained Pubg

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Its not written in stone!!


When I said it's I am telling you or let say repeating what Horus told here


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> When I said it's I am telling you or let say repeating what Horus told here


3 years of hearing the same thing. Everyone has moved on. consider that!

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> 3 years of hearing the same thing. Everyone has moved on. consider that!


I would have moved on if Pakistan Army would have stopped the process of Rifle induction. But they haven't and now what I am hearing is trials are over and talks have begun so let see.


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## Umar Ahmad 75

Path-Finder said:


> FN SCAR? You have been unfair by not even saying anything about the FN SCAR!!


Well what can I say about the FN SCAR when the deal has been made for the CZ rifle ?!?


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## Zarvan

Umar Ahmad 75 said:


> Well what can I say about the FN SCAR when the deal has been made for the CZ rifle ?!?


And if I assume you are referring to that LOU which was signed am I right


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## Umar Ahmad 75

Zarvan said:


> And if I assume you are referring to that LOU which was signed am I right


Yes Exactly that !


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> I would have moved on if Pakistan Army would have stopped the process of Rifle induction. But they haven't and now what I am hearing is trials are over and talks have begun so let see.


You can learn many things from Horus and one of them which I believe is very important for you to take up. Is keeping quiet!!!


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> You can learn many things from Horus and one of them which I believe is very important for you to take up. Is keeping quiet!!!


All the news I shared here is from him shared by me with his permission


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> All the news I shared here is from him shared by me with his permission



But he keeps quite where you become fasadi! That is the difference.

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## Super Falcon

When will army choose the gun i dont understand from three they have to choose one and 4 years have gone in thin air


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## Zarvan

__ https://www.facebook.com/


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/



what has this got to do with the topic of this thread???

Anyway halfway through July where is the news SCAR is selected? Or you have become raja pervez zarvan?

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## Malik Alashter

How about this beauty..... it's finish












Are you any richer or better than the Finish look how beautiful in the hand of this soldier

Imagine Pakistan army with this uniform and this rifle


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> what has this got to do with the topic of this thread???
> 
> Anyway halfway through July where is the news SCAR is selected? Or you have become raja pervez zarvan?


My source on this is Horus waiting for him


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## khanasifm

Was there trials of mg-3 replacement as well??? 

Or mg-3 remains the Squad machine gun and no replacement is expected ??


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## Zarvan

khanasifm said:


> Was there trials of mg-3 replacement as well???
> 
> Or mg-3 remains the Squad machine gun and no replacement is expected ??


First let Assault Rifle get selected next step will be Machine Guns and Hand Guns


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## Rana4pak

Assault riff is 50 years invested Machine Guns is 100 years investment so it will take 150 years in selections of both Guns.

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## khanasifm

Interesting 

https://www.military.com/kitup/2018/07/11/army-taps-six-firms-design-new-auto-rifle-prototypes.html


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## Hu Yao

Malik Alashter said:


> How about this beauty..... it's finish
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you any richer or better than the Finish look how beautiful in the hand of this soldier
> 
> Imagine Pakistan army with this uniform and this rifle


You mean finlandish?


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## Malik Alashter

Hu Yao said:


> You mean finlandish?


It's not finlandish it's called finish
A person or products from Finland called finnish


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## khanasifm

__ https://www.facebook.com/


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## denel

Malik Alashter said:


> How about this beauty..... it's finish
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you any richer or better than the Finish look how beautiful in the hand of this soldier
> 
> Imagine Pakistan army with this uniform and this rifle


no different than ak-47. just locally modified.


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## Malik Alashter

denel said:


> no different than ak-47. just locally modified.


And what's wrong with the AK?


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## denel

Malik Alashter said:


> And what's wrong with the AK?


Nothing.. Just pointing that out. Its design influenced valmet it is a literally copied with cosmetic changes; galil/R4 borrows heavily from AK as well. We live and breath Galil/R4/R5 here and kudos.


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## pzfz

galil/r4 borrows heavily from the finnish rk62 rifle. The fins gave the know-how and stamping machines to the israelis. Way back in this very thread i said to go for the rk95tp; or any other ak variant like the vektor r4 or the zastavas. Suits the soldiers and conditions better than any other rifle out there. AR variants or expensive ones like the hk417 and scars are frankly too good to be put in the hands of a regular infantrymen.

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## MastanKhan

denel said:


> Nothing.. Just pointing that out. Its design influenced valmet it is a literally copied with cosmetic changes; galil/R4 borrows heavily from AK as well. We live and breath Galil/R4/R5 here and kudos.



Hi,

I am a former Valmet in .308 owner---.

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## Malik Alashter

denel said:


> Nothing.. Just pointing that out. Its design influenced valmet it is a literally copied with cosmetic changes; galil/R4 borrows heavily from AK as well. We live and breath Galil/R4/R5 here and kudos.


The cutest rifle ever


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## pzfz

Malik Alashter said:


> The cutest rifle ever


It's not about looks. An AK based platform suits the relatively cheap and not as well educated and not as heavily invested soldiers that countries outside the west have. Some say the supposed accuracy of AR/HK based platforms are reason enough to go with them, but a simple question has to be asked: how many soldiers can handle and use that particular AR platform to its full extent? Not everyone can or will be a marksman in the army. Barely any meaningful engagements beyond the 300/400 m that an AK can do very well.

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## Path-Finder

@Zarvan

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> @Zarvan


SABAR KA PHAL MEETHA HOTA HAY turns out even T 129 was under trials for past 4 years

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## Vergennes

Don't know if this has ever been posted,but interesting read!

*General Staff Requirement (GSR) New Assault Rifle*

http://soldiersystems.net/2018/07/16/general-staff-requirement-gsr-new-assault-rifle/

@Zarvan @balixd @Path-Finder @Arsalan

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## Zarvan

*General Staff Requirement (GSR) New Assault Rifle*
So often in media, we see a blurb about an acquisition program and a year or so later we see a follow up story announcing a winner. What happened during that year? This article is my attempt to provide insight into the goings-on of an acquisition program.

In the summer of 2016 I had the great fortune to participate in the summer weapons trials in Pakistan. This was part of a $1.3B USD acquisition program that would select the future battle rifle for Pakistan. The program required the initially purchase of rifles from the original equipment factory with manufacturing and licensing rights to third party sales eventually shifting to new facilities being constructed in Pakistan. Of the handful of US companies registered to attend, I found myself to be the lone representative from the United States. Our offering was a 7.62 NATO, AR10-type rifle with a piston operating system. I arrived in early June for a brief two-week trip and ended up leaving two months later.

As this is a firearms related blog, I’ll focus primarily on the testing aspects of the trials, but I would like to start off with some general thoughts.

Pakistan was the United States’ key ally in Southwest Asia during the Cold War. President John F. Kennedy solidified this relationship by giving Pakistani President Mohammad Ayub Khan a hero’s welcome in 1961. Fifty-five years later, as China’s influence in Pakistan grew with the construction of the New Silk Road and Gwadar Port, the US shifted its interests from Pakistan to India. It is anticipated this area will soon dominate global trade. As a participant in the General Staff Requirement (GSR) New Assault Rifle solicitation I had opportunity to visit Pakistan. During my time there, my friend Adnan acknowledged this shift but said the US and Pakistan will again be close because the peoples of both countries like to fight and share the warrior ethos.










_Entry to President Ayub’s home_


I was continually impressed with the general knowledge of global politics possessed by even the common person. 
An individual might live in abject poverty, but they were keen to discuss the upcoming US election. I was constantly being asked about my opinion of Clinton and Trump.













_Typical roadside_


I was impressed by the warmth of the Pakistani people and their friendliness. I had the privilege to meet and form friendships with both the son of the former president of Kashmir and the husband of the former Bangladesh princess. We shared fantastic conversations.








_Amer and Adnan, great guys_


Pakistan is a very poor country. I showed up with the expectation that we could procure some of the basic tools needed to service the weapons during testing. Just run down to Walmart. Nope! For example, not even basic Allen wrench sets were available. I informed my host Shameel, he should have told me all they have is dirt and water and to bring everything else.

When I arrived in Pakistan, the US embassy was on lockdown. I was the only American walking around. It was a little disconcerting to see NGO, Embassy, and military types riding around in armored Land Cruisers I was just in a stock Toyota Corolla, but low vis works. From my military and defense sales experiences, not having any US government back up or support was a bit unnerving at times. That is when having good friends is vital.








_Shameel and I at PAKORD Base, tremendous business associate. _


On to the trial…

The weapons trial consisted of numerous tests; below is a partial list:
• Technical briefings
• Hot chamber cook-off
• Iron sight accuracy
• Optics accuracy
• Penetration
• Hot and cold environmental chambers
• Interchangeability
• Endurance
• Pluff mud
• Sand test
• Mud

Each of these tests took place at different military installations and with varying numbers of participants. 
The following companies were invited to participate in the trials:
• Beretta
• Kalashnikov
• Sig Sauer
• Mechanical and Chemical Industry Corporation (MKEK)
• CZ
• PWS
• FN Herstal
• LWRC Intl
• Zastava Arms
• Anderson Manufacturing Inc
• HK
• Hanwha
• Denel Land Systems
• Colt
• Steyr
• Armalite

Several of the companies had already completed the accuracy and environmental testing during the winter trials. For the duration of the test only three companies were present; CZ, MKEK, and the company I represented. Each weapon OEM and/or Pakistani representative paid for their participation in the trials including; travel, accommodations, use of military facilities, ammunition, etc — very different from the US or European approach where the military pays for the official testing.

Following is a summary of several of the tests, separated by facility with key observations notes.

*Islamabad*






The capital city of Islamabad was our operational hub from which we traveled to the various test facilities. I took receipt of weapons from the freight forwarders and conducted an inspection as the weapons were inventoried into the Pakistani armory. All participants conducted preliminary briefings on capabilities and waited for the requisite stamps and signatures for access to the military bases.

*PAKORD Base*

Cook-off test. Firing 120 rounds as quickly as possible, last 20 rd magazine is inserted into the weapon and a round is chambered. To the best of my knowledge only the FN SCAR and HK G3 cooked off.



Accuracy at 100m. Three rifles firing three ten shot groups apiece.

Ammunition conditioned to 21°C (69.8° F). At least two of the three groups must be less than 3.5moa or a 102mm circle. In all accuracy testing the most accurate weapon was the US AR10 style rifle.





_Team CZ with their test fixture_

Accuracy at Effective Range. 400m firing iron sights. 600m firing optical sight. Three rifles firing three ten shot groups apiece.

Ammunition conditioned to 21°C (69.8° F). On the range were MKE, CZ, and myself. MKE was assigned two of the top shooters in the Pakistan army. 

CZ brought their factory sponsored competitive shooters. Representing the US was just me wishing I had spent more time using iron sights and blaming Drake and Magpul for my inability with their Pro Sights.(Actually, Drake and Magpul are great people.) My take away is that shooting groups for accuracy using iron sights is challenging especially when using the equivalent of M80 ball ammunition. There was considerable variability inherent in the ammunition.

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## Zarvan

Range Facility after the grass was cut. When we first showed up it looked like a field of straw.

Monsoon rains made for muddy conditions. Seeing the black cobras crossing the roads kept me cautious when walking around.











Penetration at Effective Range. 

Shooting 10 gauge (3.42m) steel plates measuring 1.5m x 1.5m. 600m firing optical sight. Three rifles firing three ten shot groups apiece. 
8 out of 10 shots from 2 out of 3 groups from each weapon must pass through the plate. During winter trials none of the rifles was able to consistently penetrate the plate. 

MKE and CZ started with mixed results, but all my shots penetrated the plate. I had set my rounds in the sun and when they were hot to the touch I made my shots. MKE and CZ quickly followed my example and were soon penetrating the plate with every shot. It was interesting to see the lack of temperature stability for the powder/primer combination.






Extreme Climate Test. Hot. 360 rounds loaded into magazines and three test weapons were conditioned at +60°C (140°F) for 12 hours. All the test weapons performed without issue except for the US weapons, all of which had the bolt catch fall out of the weapon during testing and one of which launched the muzzle break down range.

Cold. 720 rounds loaded into magazines and three test weapons were conditioned at -40°C (-40°F). Two cycles of 120x rounds fired from each weapon. All the test weapons performed without issue except for the US weapons which would not chamber a round and did not fire a single shot.

Interchangeability Test. Ten weapons broken down and placed into ten trays. The first weapon started in tray one. The second weapon started in tray two and ended in tray one. 

The third weapon started in tray three and ended in tray two. The other weapons followed. Breakdown as follows: (1) Barrel and Receiver (2) Bolt Assembly (3) Bolt Carrier/Cam Plate (4) Pistol Grip (5) Trigger Mechanism (6) Gas Tube Assembly (7) Piston Assembly (8) Recoil/Return Spring (9) Magazine (10) Butt Stock

The components in each tray were assembled and ten shots fired. There weren’t any function issues amongst the competitors, but fitment was tight on several of the CZ weapons.

Endurance Testing. Condition of the weapons; cleaned and oiled. Multiple series of 120 round intervals. First magazine, five single shots and the remained fired in 3 to 5 shot bursts, with a rate of fire of 85 rounds per minute. Subsequent magazines fired in 3 to 5 shot bursts, with a rate of fire of 85 rounds per minute. After the 120-round sequence, the weapons cooled to within 2°C (35.6°F) of ambient, and then another interval was fired. Weapons were cleaned and lubricated every 1,200 rounds. 

Accuracy at 100M, muzzle velocity, and rate-of-fire were tested at the beginning and end of each cleaning and lubrication cycle. Only CZ and FN participated in the endurance testing with varying results.

*Base Gharo*

Mud Immersion Test. Condition of the rifles; bolt closed on an empty chamber with a loaded magazine inserted and the muzzle capped. The SSG took the rifles into the tidal pluff mud and rolled them in the mud until they were completely covered. 

MKE and CZ rifles along with Serbian and Chinese AK’s were able to get one or two rounds fired before jamming. The US weapon wouldn’t even chamber a round. The Russian Kalashnikov AK ran without issue. The SSG operators commented that when conducting operations where they know they will pass through pluff mud the only weapon they will carry is the AK.









_SSG Range built by US Seabees_









_Pluff Mud. I wish I had better photos capturing how much mud covered the weapons._


*Sukkur*






Sand Test. Condition of the weapons, the muzzles were capped, and a round chambered. The weapons were buried under two feet of sand and left to bake for one hour. The temperature was 56°C (133°F) in the shade. After the requisite bake, the weapons were dug up and test fired. The US weapon wouldn’t fire. The CZ and MKE rifle along with the Serbian and Chinese AKs were able to get one or two round fired before jamming. The Russian Kalashnikov AK ran without issue.






Can you identify all the weapons?











Vladimir Onokoy, leader of the Kalashnikov trial team (another solo representative)

Mud Test. Condition of the weapons; the muzzles were capped, and a round chambered. Only the Chinese and Russian AK’s fired. The Chinese AK had a single jam and once cleared continued to run. The Russian Kalashnikov AK ran without issue.












Conclusion: No rifle passed all the tests without issues; however, the FN SCAR was the only rifle that was finalized, officially accepted, with licensed manufacturing approved. 

However, since the completion of the trials, Pakistan has purchased 140,000 AK 103 rifles. The number of SCAR rifles purchased is zero – too expensive.

Takeaways: The AR10-type weapon is inherently accurate especially when compared to other service rifles, but the design leaves it very susceptible to dirt and debris. Adding a piston system to the AR15/10/M4/M16 does not improve the reliability of the system in harsh environments due to design limitations. Considering these trials, it is interesting to ponder weapon testing requirements of the United States and the small arms currently being used and purchased by the Services. The selection approach of the United States may need to be rethought. If you operate in harsh conditions where maintenance and cleaning may not be available, and you absolutely must have a rifle that fires every time you pull the trigger, then the Russian Kalashnikov AK is the answer. Otherwise, keep your weapon clean and don’t let it get dirty.

Aside from all the technical and performance components of a procurement, you can’t discount the dynamics that money and politics play in winning a solicitation – which might be a subject better off discussed over a beer.

Keep an eye out for a subsequent article detailing how to test the functional accuracy of your rifle using lessons learned in Scandinavian and Pakistan testing. Stop believing the marketing hype and get to know your rifle.

_John Kennedy is a co-founder of www.proofmarkllc.com, a firearms accessories design and manufacturing company. John was a contractor in OEF and OIF, with a background ranging from nuclear fuel production to ballistic protection. He currently consults on risk management and global defense.

http://soldiersystems.net/2018/07/16/general-staff-requirement-gsr-new-assault-rifle/_

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## django

@Hell hound @Signalian @Path-Finder @DESERT FIGHTER @Inception-06 @Signalian @Maarkhoor 
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paki...ompetition-2016.426049/page-394#post-10670363
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paki...ompetition-2016.426049/page-394#post-10670366

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## Path-Finder

The list is incredibly interesting! Had absolutely no Idea that these many OEM were participating!!

The following companies were invited to participate in the trials:
• Beretta
• Kalashnikov
• Sig Sauer
• Mechanical and Chemical Industry Corporation (MKEK)
• CZ
• PWS
• FN Herstal
• LWRC Intl
• Zastava Arms
• Anderson Manufacturing Inc
• HK
• Hanwha
• Denel Land Systems
• Colt
• Steyr
• Armalite

True to their nature they tested the absolute s#it out of these guns and left nothing for a chance.

*Considering these trials, it is interesting to ponder weapon testing requirements of the United States and the small arms currently being used and purchased by the Services. The selection approach of the United States may need to be rethought. If you operate in harsh conditions where maintenance and cleaning may not be available, and you absolutely must have a rifle that fires every time you pull the trigger, then the Russian Kalashnikov AK is the answer. Otherwise, keep your weapon clean and don’t let it get dirty.*

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## denel

Path-Finder said:


> The list is incredibly interesting! Had absolutely no Idea that these many OEM were participating!!
> 
> The following companies were invited to participate in the trials:
> • Beretta
> • Kalashnikov
> • Sig Sauer
> • Mechanical and Chemical Industry Corporation (MKEK)
> • CZ
> • PWS
> • FN Herstal
> • LWRC Intl
> • Zastava Arms
> • Anderson Manufacturing Inc
> • HK
> • Hanwha
> • Denel Land Systems
> • Colt
> • Steyr
> • Armalite
> 
> True to their nature they tested the absolute s#it out of these guns and left nothing for a chance.





Path-Finder said:


> The list is incredibly interesting! Had absolutely no Idea that these many OEM were participating!!
> 
> The following companies were invited to participate in the trials:
> • Beretta
> • Kalashnikov
> • Sig Sauer
> • Mechanical and Chemical Industry Corporation (MKEK)
> • CZ
> • PWS
> • FN Herstal
> • LWRC Intl
> • Zastava Arms
> • Anderson Manufacturing Inc
> • HK
> • Hanwha
> • Denel Land Systems
> • Colt
> • Steyr
> • Armalite
> 
> True to their nature they tested the absolute s#it out of these guns and left nothing for a chance.
> 
> *Considering these trials, it is interesting to ponder weapon testing requirements of the United States and the small arms currently being used and purchased by the Services. The selection approach of the United States may need to be rethought. If you operate in harsh conditions where maintenance and cleaning may not be available, and you absolutely must have a rifle that fires every time you pull the trigger, then the Russian Kalashnikov AK is the answer. Otherwise, keep your weapon clean and don’t let it get dirty.*


I know DLS did not go.

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## Path-Finder

django said:


> @Hell hound @Signalian @Path-Finder @DESERT FIGHTER @Inception-06 @Signalian
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paki...ompetition-2016.426049/page-394#post-10670363
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paki...ompetition-2016.426049/page-394#post-10670366



wah ji wah you do realise you have challenged the levels of our hazrat @Zarvan 



denel said:


> I know DLS did not go.


interesting!

This Article nulls and voids this 3 year old thread! Why? No clear winner and the list of participants were unknown too. Type 56 that we bash is a good weapon under the harsh circumstances and none of the new weapons were upto par except the 'Authentically Russian' made AK.

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## django

Path-Finder said:


> This Article nulls and voids this 3 year old thread! Why? No clear winner and the list of participants were unknown too. *Type 56 that we bash* is a good weapon under the harsh circumstances and none of the new weapons were upto par except the 'Authentically Russian' made AK.


Non more so than the good Hazrat.


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## Path-Finder

django said:


> Non more so than the good Hazrat.


it really is a difficult position. Really need to replace the Type 56+G3 but nothing new is upto the par that includes FN SCAR

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## denel

Path-Finder said:


> it really is a difficult position. Really need to replace the Type 56+G3 but nothing new is upto the par that includes FN SCAR


Forget about SCAR .... simply will be too expensive. Next best is CZ...

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## Sine Nomine

FN SCAR H is best 7.62x51 mm platform right know but grapes are sour.

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## denel

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> FN SCAR H is best 7.62x51 mm platform right know but grapes are sour.


I do wish DLS had tried but we do not have anything in those calibres.


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## Sine Nomine

denel said:


> I know DLS did not go.


Article looks fishy to me.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> Article looks fishy to me.


It's the view of one of many OEMs, so the guy wouldn't have been privy to all relevant info (same is to be said for other OEMs). That said, the outlay of $1.3 billion is pretty interesting.

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## Super Falcon

It takin GB to long better buy MPT from turjey clise the topic it is exausting now


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## Kamran Abbasi

kab change horahe hain weapons?


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## Inception-06

django said:


> @Hell hound @Signalian @Path-Finder @DESERT FIGHTER @Inception-06 @Signalian @Maarkhoor
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paki...ompetition-2016.426049/page-394#post-10670363
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paki...ompetition-2016.426049/page-394#post-10670366



As expected, the Pakistan Punjab Rangers have the AK-103 already in service, would be interesting to know what will be the Future role of The G-3 and Chinese Type-56 ?

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## Dreamer.

Zarvan said:


> Conclusion: No rifle passed all the tests without issues; however, the *FN SCAR *was the only rifle that was* finalized, officially accepted, *with licensed* manufacturing approved*.
> 
> However, *since the completion* of the trials*, *Pakistan has* purchased 140,000 AK 103 *rifles.
> 
> The number of *SCAR rifles purchased is* *zero – too expensive.*


For me this is the most important part of the whole article.


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## denel

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It's the view of one of many OEMs, so the guy wouldn't have been privy to all relevant info (same is to be said for other OEMs). That said, the outlay of $1.3 billion is pretty interesting.


Yes, that was a rather surprise to me; but if you consider the retooling, certification, parts, training etc it should have been no more than 900mil$. Not sure where the other amounts came into play with? Most of these contracts have a lot of kickbacks added in of 20% or more.

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## django

Inception-06 said:


> As expected, the Pakistan Punjab Rangers have the AK-103 already in service, would be interesting to what will be the Future role of The G-3 and Chinese Type-56 ?


I think we will see both these reliable rifles in service for the foreseeable future, after all they are both far better than the third rate sorry fourth rate INSAS which even the Nepalis refused free of charge and even the Yank confirmed the reliability of type 56 (despite the rantings of a certain Hazrat).Kudos bro

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## denel

django said:


> I think we will see both these reliable rifles in service for the foreseeable future, after all they are both far better than the third rate sorry fourth rate INSAS which even the Nepalis refused free of charge and even the Yank confirmed the reliability of type 56 (despite the rantings of a certain Hazrat).Kudos bro


Older rifles can be sold off as surplus or converted into semi-automatic and sold off; there is a huge market for semi-automatics. For newer ones, a limited production line for g3s can still be maintained.
I have 303 rounds in safe from Wah; i was having a bit of a challenge getting PMP (pretoria metal press) rounds locally and shop had very good price on Wah; to my surprise it was from your country.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Aaahhh so rumors from latin american militaries were true the gun does misfire by itself as can be seen in the video.


Path-Finder said:


> wah ji wah you do realise you have challenged the levels of our hazrat @Zarvan
> 
> 
> interesting!
> 
> This Article nulls and voids this 3 year old thread! Why? No clear winner and the list of participants were unknown too. Type 56 that we bash is a good weapon under the harsh circumstances and none of the new weapons were upto par except the 'Authentically Russian' made AK.


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## django

denel said:


> Older rifles can be sold off as surplus or converted into semi-automatic and sold off; there is a huge market for semi-automatics. For newer ones, a limited production line for g3s can still be maintained.
> I have 303 rounds in safe from Wah; i was having a bit of a challenge getting PMP (pretoria metal press) rounds locally and shop had very good price on Wah; to my surprise it was from your country.


I am sure their would be a large market in the US for our surplus rifles, the POF MP5s are doing quite well over their from what I have heard.BTW hope the ammo from Wah served it's purpose.Kudos Sir

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## denel

django said:


> I am sure their would be a large market in the US for our surplus rifles, the POF MP5s are doing quite well over their from what I have heard.BTW hope the ammo from Wah served it's purpose.Kudos Sir


Yes, it works well. no issues - standard ball rounds. Have taken a few impalas down with it - No 4 MkII.

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## Path-Finder

No one has picked up on the brutal testing regime employed by the services that even surpasses the yanks in testing the weapon system. But then again we recently learned about the harsh testing of T129.

It does make sense why Poland has entered the game because despite what we believe there's no clear winner and that can due to the brutally harsh tests Pakistan employed. On the other hand it is a very good test especially if you are going to fork out an absolute fortune on it.



Ahmet Pasha said:


> Aaahhh so rumors from latin american militaries were true the gun does misfire by itself as can be seen in the video.


no rifle was the best in trials . some did good in certain scenarios while failed in other scenarios. Honestly Russian AK was the best in trials. But thats calibre specific. 7.62x51 is the real challenge everyone is not doing well in!

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## denel

Path-Finder said:


> No one has picked up on the brutal testing regime employed by the services that even surpasses the yanks in testing the weapon system. But then again we recently learned about the harsh testing of T129.
> 
> It does make sense why Poland has entered the game because despite what we believe there's no clear winner and that can due to the brutally harsh tests Pakistan employed. On the other hand it is a very good test especially if you are going to fork out an absolute fortune on it.
> 
> 
> no rifle was the best in trials . some did good in certain scenarios while failed in other scenarios. Honestly Russian AK was the best in trials. But thats calibre specific. 7.62x51 is the real challenge everyone is not doing well in!


We used to come across cache in Rhodesia border or even on northern Nambia; these Aks' had been buried as is and sometimes were 2-3 years in the dirt/rain/mud; sometimes even their butts were completed ruined; on the range to see if they worked, I saw NONE that ever jammed when fired voetstoet - 'as is' in english.

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## Inception-06

django said:


> I think we will see both these reliable rifles in service for the foreseeable future, after all they are both far better than the third rate sorry fourth rate INSAS which even the Nepalis refused free of charge and even the Yank confirmed the reliability of type 56 (despite the rantings of a certain Hazrat).Kudos bro




600000 men, from that fighting force, could be 500000: 130000 Ak-103 means 13:5=2,6 so 2-3 Ak-103 in one section.


I think the section level would look in the future like this: One men with RPG(sidearm could be Type-56 submachine gun), than the RPG-ammunition carrier equipped with Type-56 submachine gun, then the MG-3 carrier, then the MG-3 ammunition carrier who is equipped with a Type-56 submachine gun, Sniper or Marksman equipped with Steyr SSG 69, than the Radio communication Soldier need also the lighter Type-56 submachine gun. This are Six Soldiers till now. 6 are left, that means the three will carry the G-3 and the last three the Ak-103. This section level is a deadly combination.

@Signalian do you agree

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## Amaa'n

Path-Finder said:


> No one has picked up on the brutal testing regime employed by the services that even surpasses the yanks in testing the weapon system. But then again we recently learned about the harsh testing of T129.
> 
> It does make sense why Poland has entered the game because despite what we believe there's no clear winner and that can due to the brutally harsh tests Pakistan employed. On the other hand it is a very good test especially if you are going to fork out an absolute fortune on it.
> 
> 
> no rifle was the best in trials . some did good in certain scenarios while failed in other scenarios. Honestly Russian AK was the best in trials. But thats calibre specific. 7.62x51 is the real challenge everyone is not doing well in!


nothing new man, we are following more of NATO standard requirements........you should see how they tested the Handguns.......
anyhow the main point that most have been arguing about is that no weapon is perfect, we will have to get the one which offers the best terms, modular design and something we can build upon further and that is CZ....
If I was to pick a SHTF (shit hits the fan) rifle it would be non other than AK rifle but lets accept the fact that there nothing much you can do with this weapon to add accessories......

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## Path-Finder

balixd said:


> nothing new man, we are following more of NATO standard requirements........you should see how they tested the Handguns.......
> anyhow the main point that most have been arguing about is that no weapon is perfect, we will have to get the one which offers the best terms, modular design and something we can build upon further and that is CZ....
> If I was to pick a SHTF (shit hits the fan) rifle it would be non other than AK rifle but lets accept the fact that there nothing much you can do with this weapon to add accessories......


I suppose, the new line of rifles being developed by AK which are being modeled with modularity in mind is something that can meet requirements but its many years away. But I think the process of exploring various vendors makes sense instead of just limiting to those OEM who turned up due to an invitation!

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## Amaa'n

Path-Finder said:


> I suppose, the new line of rifles being developed by AK which are being modeled with modularity in mind is something that can meet requirements but its many years away. But I think the process of exploring various vendors makes sense instead of just limiting to those OEM who turned up due to an invitation!


Highlight for me was SCAR cooked off....
And second one was pluff mudd test where all failed but AK fired ......you cant go wrong with Mother Russia, always takes care of you

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## Path-Finder

balixd said:


> Highlight for me was SCAR cooked off....
> And second one was pluff mudd test where all failed but AK fired ......you cant go wrong with Mother Russia, always takes care of you


 toheen of FN SCAR Strange thing is the cook off story was revealed by that Colombian guy quite some time ago and now we have confirmation.

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## Amaa'n

Path-Finder said:


> toheen of FN SCAR Strange thing is the cook off story was revealed by that Colombian guy quite some time ago and now we have confirmation.


even i didn't know about this story, i heard stories about all guns and Horus even shared few details....even in those there was nothing mentioned about SCAR failure......
but here is the proof....it did go off

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## denel

balixd said:


> nothing new man, we are following more of NATO standard requirements........you should see how they tested the Handguns.......
> anyhow the main point that most have been arguing about is that no weapon is perfect, we will have to get the one which offers the best terms, modular design and something we can build upon further and that is CZ....
> If I was to pick a SHTF (shit hits the fan) rifle it would be non other than AK rifle but lets accept the fact that there nothing much you can do with this weapon to add accessories......


200% - CZ would be my choice. But if I wanted absolutely foolproof/failproof I would go with AK or Galil/R4 anyday.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

balixd said:


> nothing new man, we are following more of NATO standard requirements........you should see how they tested the Handguns.......
> anyhow the main point that most have been arguing about is that no weapon is perfect, we will have to get the one which offers the best terms, modular design and something we can build upon further and that is CZ....
> If I was to pick a SHTF (shit hits the fan) rifle it would be non other than AK rifle but lets accept the fact that there nothing much you can do with this weapon to add accessories......


I'd honestly go all-in on CZ ... i.e. CZ-807 for 7.62 NATO, 7.62x39 and 5.56 NATO; CZ TSR for .308; CZ Scorpion for 9 mm; CZ P-10 for sidearm. In terms of LMG, I'd go to Denel Land Systems for the DMG-5. For an AMR, I'd go to Truvelo (South Africa).

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## merzifonlu

Ask the Russians to develop a modern AK-47 variant that uses 6.5 Creedmoor ammunition. Yes, this ammunition is not common at the moment. But Americans will start using this ammunition in the near future. You guys are one step ahead of the rest.


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## Amaa'n

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I'd honestly go all-in on CZ ... i.e. CZ-807 for 7.62 NATO, 7.62x39 and 5.56 NATO; CZ TSR for .308; CZ Scorpion for 9 mm; CZ P-10 for sidearm. In terms of LMG, I'd go to Denel Land Systems for the DMG-5. For an AMR, I'd go to Truvelo (South Africa).


Exactly, they have a proven track record to show and back them up.....something tells me SCAR fanboyism got to our boys involved in trails......CZ is answer to our problem......

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## Path-Finder

balixd said:


> even i didn't know about this story, i heard stories about all guns and Horus even shared few details....even in those there was nothing mentioned about SCAR failure......
> but here is the proof....it did go off


Yep it was a toheen in which our beloved lost his marbles shamelessly. However time has proven it to be true . I think its very difficult to build a rifle around that calibre and in that competition SCAR did ok but nothing ground breaking. Maybe polish rifles will be tested too because why not it benefits both vendor and the party testing the platform.

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## Signalian

Inception-06 said:


> 600000 men, from that fighting force, could be 500000: 130000 Ak-103 means 13:5=2,6 so 2-3 Ak-103 in one section.
> 
> 
> I think the section level would look in the future like this: One men with RPG(sidearm could be Type-56 submachine gun), than the RPG-ammunition carrier equipped with Type-56 submachine gun, then the MG-3 carrier, then the MG-3 ammunition carrier who is equipped with a Type-56 submachine gun, Sniper or Marksman equipped with Steyr SSG 69, than the Radio communication Soldier need also the lighter Type-56 submachine gun. This are Six Soldiers till now. 6 are left, that means the three will carry the G-3 and the last three the Ak-103. This section level is a deadly combination.
> 
> @Signalian do you agree


yes boss.

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## denel

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I'd honestly go all-in on CZ ... i.e. CZ-807 for 7.62 NATO, 7.62x39 and 5.56 NATO; CZ TSR for .308; CZ Scorpion for 9 mm; CZ P-10 for sidearm. In terms of LMG, I'd go to Denel Land Systems for the DMG-5. For an AMR, I'd go to Truvelo (South Africa).



CZ side arms are some of the best. Here CZ75/85 are the cadilacs then Taurus + Vektor. We use Vektor SP1 here.

Agreed, Economics of scale if all are standardised to one manufacturer and opens up to avenue to multiple upgrades across the board.

DMG-5 is superb; if you want slightly cheaper; SS-77 is easily accessible and is superb; we used it in Angola; its egronomics are very much PK LMG but like RPK, LW used R4 as a basis and it is available in both 5.56mm/7.62. On our side, we use 7.62mm locally but former if required for export market. What is more amazing DMG-5 was designed by junior engineers and interns.

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## denel

Path-Finder said:


> Yep it was a toheen in which our beloved lost his marbles shamelessly. However time has proven it to be true . I think its very difficult to build a rifle around that calibre and in that competition SCAR did ok but nothing ground breaking. Maybe polish rifles will be tested too because why not it benefits both vendor and the party testing the platform.


I still dont know why they are going to poland for a platform; it defies my understanding given they do not have proven track record like others.


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## Path-Finder

denel said:


> I still dont know why they are going to poland for a platform; it defies my understanding given they do not have proven track record like others.



Not sure but there is no harm in giving it a go as there seems to be no rush to sign a contract so continuing with window shopping. but it can be a courtesy to Poland because in the early years of Pakistan Poles played a vital role.


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## denel

Path-Finder said:


> Not sure but there is no harm in giving it a go as there seems to be no rush to sign a contract so continuing with window shopping. but it can be a courtesy to Poland because in the early years of Pakistan Poles played a vital role.


True definitely no harm but why waste time.


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## gangsta_rap

denel said:


> True definitely no harm but why waste time.


leave no stone unturned? if we're gonna look at czech arms might as well take a look at the poles too.


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## Path-Finder

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1024313112990834688

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## Zarvan

Qatar Armed Force(QAF) concluded a training course for dismantling, installing and using of Beretta arx 200 assault rifles, arx 160 a2 and pistols which will be manufactured inside Qatar .. begging from 2019 Qatar Armed Force will use Beretta rifles and pistols


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## LegitimateIdiot

merzifonlu said:


> Ask the Russians to develop a modern AK-47 variant that uses 6.5 Creedmoor ammunition. Yes, this ammunition is not common at the moment. But Americans will start using this ammunition in the near future. You guys are one step ahead of the rest.


6.5 mm is a great round

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## Zarvan



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## Path-Finder

found something very interesting about the Type 56. The guy speaking in English was in Pakistan for the rifle trial on behalf of Kalashnikov and he doesn't say it but he means Pakistan.

start from 4:25

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## django

Path-Finder said:


> found something very interesting about the Type 56. The guy speaking in English was in Pakistan for the rifle trial on behalf of Kalashnikov and he doesn't say it but he means Pakistan.
> 
> start from 4:25


Well spotted bro, you do know that we have many of these Russian AKMs from old USSR stocks that were left behind in Afghanistan.Kudos bro



Zarvan said:


>


Recycling old previously posted pics Hazrat  just chill

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## django

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1025254473608908800
Hazrat @Zarvan Could you please provide some evidence that this fine weapon G-3M is 1/2 kg heavier than G3-A3, a factual response would be greatly appreciated.Kudos Hazrat

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## Zarvan

django said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1025254473608908800
> Hazrat @Zarvan Could you please provide some evidence that this fine weapon G-3M is 1/2 kg heavier than G3-A3, a factual response would be greatly appreciated.Kudos Hazrat


I talked to an Army officer he told me that this is around half a kg heavier than other ones. And it was pretty obvious it was going to be as it is mainly steal.

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## Amaa'n

Zarvan said:


> I talked to an Army officer he told me that this is around half a kg heavier than other ones. And it was pretty obvious it was going to be as it is mainly steal.


bara weight hai bhai....  .....main issue with g3 was jamming at low temps....apart from that for battle groups, its a fine weapon....

@Zarvan 
this might be an interesting watch for you and those who thought 308 had a recoil  Watch at 1:00mins & onwards




__ https://www.facebook.com/

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## Tps43

G 3 for 30 years more to come.

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## Sine Nomine

django said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1025254473608908800
> Hazrat @Zarvan Could you please provide some evidence that this fine weapon G-3M is 1/2 kg heavier than G3-A3, a factual response would be greatly appreciated.Kudos Hazrat


There nothing special in it other then those 4 Aluminum Rails,they have increased weight.And it has been around for almost 5 years.
Look pics posted into link.
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/detailed-pics-of-new-pof-guns.328384/

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## Sine Nomine

balixd said:


> bara weight hai bhai....  .....main issue with g3 was jamming at low temps....apart from that for battle groups, its a fine weapon....


Actually that's not jamming issue,that's more of a metallurgy flaw or design flaw,those who encountered that situation state that during low temps G3 would never achieve battery i.e it would fail to feed a fresh round from fresh magazine into cold chamber,rollers would fail to lock into recesses in the barrel extension.
For solving this problem let's have a closer look into working of G3A4.

_The G3A3 (A4) is a selective-fire automatic weapon that employs a roller-delayed blowback operating system. The two-piece bolt assembly consists of a breech (bolt head) and bolt carrier. The bolt is held in battery by two sliding cylindrical rollers that engage locking recesses in the barrel extension. The breech is opened when both rollers are compressed inward against camming surfaces driven by the rearward pressure of the expanding gases upon the bolt head. As the rollers move inward, recoil energy is transferred to the locking piece and bolt carrier which begin to withdraw while the bolt head slowly moves rearward in relation to the bolt carrier. As the bolt carrier clears the rollers, pressure in the bore drops to a safe level, the bolt head is caught by the bolt carrier and moves to the rear as one unit, continuing the operating cycle. The bolt features an anti-bounce mechanism that prevents the bolt from bouncing off the barrel's breech surface. The "bolt head locking lever" is a spring-loaded claw mounted on the bolt carrier that grabs the bolt head as the bolt carrier group goes into battery. The lever essentially ratchets into place with friction, providing enough resistance to being re-opened that the bolt carrier does not rebound. The spring-powered claw extractor is also contained inside the bolt while the lever ejector is located inside the trigger housing (actuated by the recoiling bolt)_​





That Barrel Extension is Trunnion.







What happens is actually during low temp,that *Rollers won't fit into Barrel Extension a.k.a Trunnion*.In my opinion that's more of a problem due to the fact that _"When it is cold the kinetic energy decreases, so the atoms take up less space and the material contracts"_
That problem never surfaces into rifles like Ak and AR,in which rotating bolt system lugs would lock into locking recesses machined into receiver or barrel extension because there is space left to compensate for weather changes because in these designs you have no need for fitting but in roller delayed blow back system fitting is needed for smooth operation.
Now we can assume two things.
1-Either it's a inherited design flaw
Or
2-Metal used has low weather tolerance when it comes to low temp.

This problem has 2 solution in field which i got from field operatives.
1-Chamber the round in day time because after 1st round is fired it would fire smoothly till cool down.
2-Place rifle into room with heater or sleep with your rifle in your sleeping bag.
Otherwise it is a reliable weapon in desert and plains.
At our end in Pakistan,if we are able to solve that metallurgy issue,rifle would be fine and fit.Remember that MG1A3 has same trununion in which locking is done but it has no problem.When that problem did aroused in siachen and else where instead of solving it we started fielding Type 56.

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## Path-Finder

I see this as a pointless exercise now! We are now entering a new age of CT ammo and guns. Maybe it best to wait until those weapons and ammo become streamline and keep using G3/Type 56











Maybe better to join in hands with OEM's doing R&D and co-develop a system.

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## khanasifm

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=694349024252130


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## Bilal.

Path-Finder said:


> I see this as a pointless exercise now! We are now entering a new age of CT ammo and guns. Maybe it best to wait until those weapons and ammo become streamline and keep using G3/Type 56
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe better to join in hands with OEM's doing R&D and co-develop a system.



Exactly the conclusion I reached a couple of months ago. Lets not adopt a 100 year old ammo. a 6.5 creedmoor derivative, with polymer casing would be fit for a rifle of the 21st century.


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## Sine Nomine

Path-Finder said:


> I see this as a pointless exercise now! We are now entering a new age of CT ammo and guns. Maybe it best to wait until those weapons and ammo become streamline and keep using G3/Type 56
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe better to join in hands with OEM's doing R&D and co-develop a system.





Bilal. said:


> Exactly the conclusion I reached a couple of months ago. Lets not adopt a 100 year old ammo. a 6.5 creedmoor derivative, with polymer casing would be fit for a rifle of the 21st century.


That concept in form of G11 and caseless ammo came during 60's and H&K did developed both rifle and ammo,which never reached production level.


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## Bilal.

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> That concept in form of G11 and caseless ammo came during 60's and H&K did developed both rifle and ammo,which never reached production level.



Caseless is not practical yet. It breaks and cracks and is not rugged enough for military use.


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## denel

Path-Finder said:


> I see this as a pointless exercise now! We are now entering a new age of CT ammo and guns. Maybe it best to wait until those weapons and ammo become streamline and keep using G3/Type 56
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe better to join in hands with OEM's doing R&D and co-develop a system.


aBSOLUTELY no


Path-Finder said:


> I see this as a pointless exercise now! We are now entering a new age of CT ammo and guns. Maybe it best to wait until those weapons and ammo become streamline and keep using G3/Type 56
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe better to join in hands with OEM's doing R&D and co-develop a system.


NOOOOO..... Absolutely NO to CT. You need a proven design. 
My notes long back; stick with G3/T56+AK103. Put your own design in - use an existing design and work on it to adopt it.


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## Path-Finder

denel said:


> aBSOLUTELY no
> 
> NOOOOO..... Absolutely NO to CT. You need a proven design.
> My notes long back; stick with G3/T56+AK103. Put your own design in - use an existing design and work on it to adopt it.



I think after the rifle trials either a domestic design will qualify or partner with some OEM

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> I think after the rifle trials either a domestic design will qualify or partner with some OEM


No domestic thing happening


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## denel

Zarvan said:


> No domestic thing happening


Yes, it does not appear so but if they had some foresight, this was an excellent project to undertake.


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## Zarvan

Soldiers on Hilux have arrived in PU. All are carrying G3M. 

Punjab University

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## Sine Nomine

G3M,N,O,P,Q,R,S,T,U,V,W,X,Y,Z days are gone.
We should rather start focusing on growing our own weapon system in all categories.
1-Sub Machine Gun.
2-Carbine.
3-Assult Rifle.
4-Battle rifle.
5-Squad support weapon.
We can deveolp system with FN like plan in mind.
1-A system with common multi-caliber architecture that is highly modular and instantly adaptable to virtually any mission requirements,ambidextrous controls and system with very low logistics requirment.
It would take time but in the end,it would be able to save a ton of money.

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## django

Zarvan said:


> Soldiers on Hilux have arrived in PU. All are carrying G3M.
> 
> Punjab University


Hazrat you are going to see this for the foreseeable future, like it or not!

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## Zarvan

django said:


> Hazrat you are going to see this for the foreseeable future, like it or not!


Hazrat even if we select the Rifle it would take a decade to replace all so I know G3 will be there for at least one more decade.



django said:


> Hazrat you are going to see this for the foreseeable future, like it or not!


But if you think G3 has some special place in Army heart no it doesn't. The moment they get a good Rifle you would see it vanishing from ranks. Just like Type 56 is vanishing from use by SSG and now even LCB units are seen with M4.

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Hazrat even if we select the Rifle it would take a decade to replace all so I know G3 will be there for at least one more decade.
> 
> 
> But if you think G3 has some special place in Army heart no it doesn't. The moment they get a good Rifle you would see it vanishing from ranks. Just like Type 56 is vanishing from use by SSG and now even LCB units are seen with M4.


Derwaish didn't Pakistan get select amount of AK-103?

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## AMG_12

Path-Finder said:


> Derwaish didn't Pakistan get select amount of AK-103?


I really hope it's true. It perfectly fits the profile of a PA infantryman.

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Derwaish didn't Pakistan get select amount of AK-103?


There was news two year but nothing since than


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## Dynamic Defense Solutions

hi, as I could see, this post is 2015, pak army should have completed trials and procurements, so who won then at masses?


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## Gryphon

Path-Finder said:


> Derwaish didn't Pakistan get select amount of AK-103?





Game.Invade said:


> I really hope it's true. It perfectly fits the profile of a PA infantryman.



As per the author John Kennedy, the AK-103 purchase is not part of the rifle tender, it is a separate program. All off-the-shelf pcs.


I think the rifle tender is moving to a situation where, POF will continue manufacturing 7.62x51mm rifles and 7.62x39mm rifles will be imported, as done before with Type 56.

@django @Inception-06 @Signalian @HRK @Starlord @Arsalan

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## Path-Finder

Gryphon said:


> As per the author John Kennedy, the AK-103 purchase is not part of the rifle tender, it is a separate program. All off-the-shelf pcs.
> 
> 
> I think the rifle tender is moving to a situation where, POF will continue manufacturing 7.62x51mm rifles and 7.62x39mm rifles will be imported, as done before with Type 56.
> 
> @django @Inception-06 @Signalian @HRK @Starlord @Arsalan



I get the feeling there is no rush to get new rifles and its all cool down. Most likely reason non of the tenders impressed PA.

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## HRK

Gryphon said:


> As per the author John Kennedy, the AK-103 purchase is not part of the rifle tender, it is a separate program. All off-the-shelf pcs.
> 
> 
> I think the rifle tender is moving to a situation where, POF will continue manufacturing 7.62x51mm rifles and 7.62x39mm rifles will be imported, as done before with Type 56.
> 
> @django @Inception-06 @Signalian @HRK @Starlord @Arsalan


literally I lost the track about the discussion for the tender of Rifles purchase, so all I can say this could the case as you suggested or may be direct purchase order for AK-103 was placed to get licence for in house production

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## Inception-06

Gryphon said:


> As per the author John Kennedy, the AK-103 purchase is not part of the rifle tender, it is a separate program. All off-the-shelf pcs.
> 
> 
> I think the rifle tender is moving to a situation where, POF will continue manufacturing 7.62x51mm rifles and 7.62x39mm rifles will be imported, as done before with Type 56.
> 
> @django @Inception-06 @Signalian @HRK @Starlord @Arsalan




But why is Ak-103 not a part of the rifle tender!

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## YeBeWarned

Inception-06 said:


> But why is Ak-103 not a part of the rifle tender!



maybe its not coming with an option of manufacturing in home ? or probably Ak-103 will remain as spec ops rifles cause of some similarity with type 56..

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## Zarvan

Inception-06 said:


> But why is Ak-103 not a part of the rifle tender!


It's part of the Rifle tender. It's part in 7.62 X 39 category which is to replace Type 56

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## Gryphon

Inception-06 said:


> But why is Ak-103 not a part of the rifle tender!



John says its an off-the-shelf purchase made outside of the GSR assault rifle tender. That means no local production after the direct purchase is made.
The GSR tender specified off-the-shelf purchase + local production.

If the 140,000 AK-103 figure is confirmed by an official source, that would be curtains for any 7.62x39mm rifle production at POF.

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## Zarvan

Gryphon said:


> John says its an off-the-shelf purchase made outside of the GSR assault rifle tender. That means no local production after the direct purchase is made.
> The GSR tender specified off-the-shelf purchase + local production.
> 
> If the 140,000 AK-103 figure is confirmed by any official source, that would be curtains for any 7.62x39mm rifle production at POF.



No such order has been placed


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## shawn52

My Vote is for Zavasta M21


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## AMG_12

Zarvan said:


> No such order has been placed


John participated in the rifle trials in person, you didn't. I'll take John's word over yours anytime, any day.

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## Zarvan

Game.Invade said:


> John participated in the rifle trials in person, you didn't. I'll take John's word over yours anytime, any day.


No such order has taken place but you want to believe it go ahead I was the one who posted this news Janab. I mean of AK-103 but it turned out to be wrong


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## Thunder.Storm

*AK-308*
*Cartridge: 7.62×51

Weight (with magazine, without ammunition): 4,3 kg

Overall length/with bayonet – 880-940 millimeters/ 1045-1105 mm

Overall length with the folded stock: 690 mm

Barrel length: 415 mm

Stock: folding adjustable 4-position

Magazine capacity: 20 rounds

Sights: aperture sight

















*

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## Thunder.Storm

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog...-presents-new-assault-rifle-prototype-ak-308/


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## Lone Ranger

Nawaz sharif phir abbasi or ab imran khan pm bn gya lakin ye rifle pata nai kab final hogi

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## Zarvan

__ https://www.facebook.com/

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## HRK

Gryphon said:


> As per the author John Kennedy, the AK-103 purchase is not part of the rifle tender, it is a separate program. All off-the-shelf pcs.
> 
> 
> I think the rifle tender is moving to a situation where, POF will continue manufacturing 7.62x51mm rifles and 7.62x39mm rifles will be imported, as done before with Type 56.
> 
> @django @Inception-06 @Signalian @HRK @Starlord @Arsalan


as per H Khan of pakdef (1) Kalashnikov company has offered licence manufacturing of AK-308 (7.62x51) in Pakistan.

*If *this news is true than the purchase of AK-103 (AK-308 is based on AK-103) *might *be indication of future service rifle

AK-308

Video: https://kalashnikov.media/video/weapons/kontsern-kalashnikov-predstavil-novyy-opytnyy-avtomat-ak-308

Photo: https://kalashnikov.media/photo/weapons/opytnyy-avtomat-ak-308-v-detalyakh

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## Army research

HRK said:


> as per H Khan of pakdef (1) Kalashnikov company has offered licence manufacturing of AK-308 (7.62x51) in Pakistan.
> 
> *If *this news is true than the purchase of AK-103 (AK-308 is based on AK-103) *might *be indication of future service rifle
> 
> AK-308
> 
> Video: https://kalashnikov.media/video/weapons/kontsern-kalashnikov-predstavil-novyy-opytnyy-avtomat-ak-308
> 
> Photo: https://kalashnikov.media/photo/weapons/opytnyy-avtomat-ak-308-v-detalyakh


Thank God for kalashnikov, they made the.51 for exports only and right now Pakistan needs it , 
If license production is given then bag it , 
Ak series never fail , 
It's like having a water cup made from metal and one fancy one from glass, 
The fancy one looks better but drop them and then only the metal one works ,
SSG always prefer Ak T56 over ar 15 when they know their will be rain mud etc

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## Path-Finder

Army research said:


> Thank God for kalashnikov, they made the.51 for exports only and right now Pakistan needs it ,
> If license production is given then bag it ,
> Ak series never fail ,
> It's like having a water cup made from metal and one fancy one from glass,
> The fancy one looks better but drop them and then only the metal one works ,
> SSG always prefer Ak T56 over ar 15 when they know their will be rain mud etc


replacing Type56 with Authentic AK will be the best deal!

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## Bossman

Army research said:


> Thank God for kalashnikov, they made the.51 for exports only and right now Pakistan needs it ,
> If license production is given then bag it ,
> Ak series never fail ,
> It's like having a water cup made from metal and one fancy one from glass,
> The fancy one looks better but drop them and then only the metal one works ,
> SSG always prefer Ak T56 over ar 15 when they know their will be rain mud etc


 Look at the gun. The exterior are all pressed parts and not investment casting or machined. This reduces the cost significantly maybe that is what the Russians are are trying to pull. The downside is accuracy. This gun can be built by bluestar or similar shop in KPK. It’s the the investment casting where POF has to invest. Not a big deal. I do it in my Kitchen.


----------



## mingle

HRK said:


> as per H Khan of pakdef (1) Kalashnikov company has offered licence manufacturing of AK-308 (7.62x51) in Pakistan.
> 
> *If *this news is true than the purchase of AK-103 (AK-308 is based on AK-103) *might *be indication of future service rifle
> 
> AK-308
> 
> Video: https://kalashnikov.media/video/weapons/kontsern-kalashnikov-predstavil-novyy-opytnyy-avtomat-ak-308
> 
> Photo: https://kalashnikov.media/photo/weapons/opytnyy-avtomat-ak-308-v-detalyakh


Haris also said license production of RPG 29 which is perfect fit with AK.

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## Zarvan

Start watching after 6th minute to know about latest AK Assault Rifles

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## tigerrock ali

Path-Finder said:


> it really is a difficult position. Really need to replace the Type 56+G3 but nothing new is upto the par that includes FN SCAR


Why the army is not considering the HK-416 and 417? US sanctions may be? Yeah the rifles are expansive but we already have license for producing G-3, why not get one for HK-416 and 17?


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## Path-Finder

tigerrock ali said:


> Why the army is not considering the HK-416 and 417? US sanctions may be? Yeah the rifles are expansive but we already have license for producing G-3, why not get one for HK-416 and 17?


HK are not selling to non NATO countries. The reason no one knows. But that dosent mean there aren't other rifle makers just as good but commercially not as big.


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## fitpOsitive

Path-Finder said:


> HK are not selling to non NATO countries. The reason no one knows. But that dosent mean there aren't other rifle makers just as good but commercially not as big.


Akhri sansain lay rahi hai Europe ki shan. Apni maan bhi bech chuka Europe China ko. 
Behtar hai keh ham apna rukh Russia ki taraf ya China ki taraf kerlain.


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## blain2

After the selection process started in 2015 (see page 1) and after 400 pages of evaluation by the members here, has the new service rifle been selected? Lol!

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## Quwa

blain2 said:


> After the selection process started in 2015 (see page 1) and after 400 pages of evaluation by the members here, has the new service rifle been selected? Lol!


tbh ... whatever Zarvan looks at, it's not happening. Not even a hard signature will protect a deal from this fate (see what's going to the T129 deal). If it's been Zarvan'ed, it's gone.

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## Kompromat

They've made a decision, now they must work out the tendering process. Funds, tech transfer, establishing a factory, quality control, certification and more importantly training soldiers to use a new weapon. 



blain2 said:


> After the selection process started in 2015 (see page 1) and after 400 pages of evaluation by the members here, has the new service rifle been selected? Lol!

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## Zarvan

Horus said:


> They've made a decision, now they must work out the tendering process. Funds, tech transfer, establishing a factory, quality control, certification and more importantly training soldiers to use a new weapon.


And which Gun it is ?????????

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## django

Zarvan said:


> And which Gun it is ?????????


@Horus bhai put Muffakir out of his misery .Kudos Sir

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## bananarepublic

django said:


> @Horus bhai put Muffakir out of his misery .Kudos Sir



add me to the list of who wants to know the gun chosen

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> And which Gun it is ?????????


Derwaish It must be x39 rifle which is more important than x51 because of continuing ops etc. I dont think there is a rush for x51 rifles.

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Derwaish It must be x39 rifle which is more important than x51 because of continuing ops etc. I dont think there is a rush for x51 rifles.


Pakistan has no special love for X 39 Caliber Janab. Our SSG the moment they got their hands on M4 pretty much has stopped using Type 56 even now many LCB and even Rangers are seen with M4. So I really doubt their is any rush for this caliber any more. 

@Horus


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## Thunder.Storm

Its ak 103.


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Pakistan has no special love for X 39 Caliber Janab. Our SSG the moment they got their hands on M4 pretty much has stopped using Type 56 even now many LCB and even Rangers are seen with M4. So I really doubt their is any rush for this caliber any more.
> 
> @Horus



Mufakir M4 should be made more broader and that is a perfect gun for police. For military use x39 has yet to have an equal its here to stay. The rifle needs to be updated. If there was no love for x39 then why was POF upgraded to produce more x39 ammo?

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Mufakir M4 should be made more broader and that is a perfect gun for police. For military use x39 has yet to have an equal its here to stay. The rifle needs to be updated. If there was no love for x39 then why was POF upgraded to produce more x39 ammo?


M4 is better than Type 56 but still requires way to much oiling Janab. We are now using them because it's better than Type 59 and we got them for free.


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> M4 is better than Type 56 but still requires way to much oiling Janab. We are now using them because it's better than Type 59 and we got them for free.


Hazrat x39 is still strong otherwise the tender for a new rifle in x39 makes no sense! There were issue's with type56 which was a short term solution. M4 after the operation began to wind down did start to appear more. It makes sense. But if the situation ever deteriorates then you will see x39 on the front.

The war was won on x39 Derwaish not 556!! What is type 59?

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat x39 is still strong otherwise the tender for a new rifle in x39 makes no sense! There were issue's with type56 which was a short term solution. M4 after the operation began to wind down did start to appear more. It makes sense. But if the situation ever deteriorates then you will see x39 on the front.
> 
> The war was won on x39 Derwaish not 556!! What is type 59?


Army has no issue in dropping this caliber also. Their is pretty much equal opinion in Army right now which says they don't need this caliber any more. 5.56 and X 51 are more than enough. We may very well see Armed Forces eventually dropping this caliber. In Close Combat Battles SSG opinion matters the most which lead these battles and in which mainly Type 56 was being used and the moment they got a better Rifle in 5.56 they shifted to that


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## AMG_12

Zarvan said:


> M4 is better than Type 56 but still requires way to much oiling Janab. We are now using them because it's better than Type 59 and we got them for free.


We didn't get M4 for free, please don't lie. We had incremental purchase of M4 over the years. Free provision happened during 2006-2009 but very limited numbers.

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## ali_raza

wht happened to cz


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Army has no issue in dropping this caliber also. Their is pretty much equal opinion in Army right now which says they don't need this caliber any more. 5.56 and X 51 are more than enough. We may very well see Armed Forces eventually dropping this caliber. In Close Combat Battles SSG opinion matters the most which lead these battles and in which mainly Type 56 was being used and the moment they got a better Rifle in 5.56 they shifted to that


Hazrat I have no issue with 556 or x39. Both calibres have their merits.

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## YeBeWarned

Horus said:


> They've made a decision, now they must work out the tendering process. Funds, tech transfer, establishing a factory, quality control, certification and more importantly training soldiers to use a new weapon.



It better be CZ bern ..


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## Thunder.Storm

Breaking news: CZ unveils new BREN 2 battle rifle in 7.62x51 (.308 Win)

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## Sine Nomine

Hazrat ke chulain nai sarkar jesey hain.

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## Cuirassier

Looks like we'll be needing a Gun Fund by PM and CJ


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## RangeMaster

They are still doing the trials? Or already've been done.


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## Zarvan

*Breaking news: CZ unveils new BREN 2 battle rifle in 7.62×51 (.308 Win)*






Today, Polish military magazine MILMAG (https://www.milmag.pl/) released pictures of the new CZ Bren 2 variant chambered in .308 Win.










Source: https://www.facebook.com/TheMilMag2/ 


Looking at the pictures, we can see at least one interesting improvement- new M-Lock handguard.

In 2016, in Pakistan, when I was first introduced to CZ 807 series, my first question was – why do you still have a quad rail when you can have Key-Mode or M-Lock?

CZ 807 assault rifle is very light to begin with, but a modular handguard is a sure way to make it even lighter and improve the balance. The leader of a CZ trial team answered “the time for that will come’. I am glad the time finally came.




_CZ 807 with a quadrail_



_Author with a CZ 807 chambered in 7.62×39 in Pakistan_

Currently, there is no official information available about this new Bren 2 variant, but since the cat is out of the bag, I guess I can share what I know.

In 2016, Pakistan army held trials for its service weapon replacement. You can read more about it here. One of the contenders was CZ, it entered the trials with two different weapons, CZ 807 and… CZ 807.

Those two weapons, despite having exactly the same name, were chambered in two different calibers, 7.62×39 and 7.62×54. The first one entered the trials right away, the second one was introduced later. Shortly after the 7.62×51 variant was demonstrated for the first time, I managed to take some pictures and for over two years never showed them to anyone.











As far as the performance of CZ 807 during the trials – I don’t think it is ethical to share such information publically without the approval of the manufacturer. I can tell two things for sure – with match .308 ammunition, CZ 807 was very accurate, demonstrating solid groups at 100 meters distance. Second – in 2016, the .308 version was on a very early stage of development and rifle probably improved a lot in the last two years.

As far as specs: magazine capacity is 20 rounds, the rifle has a signature CZ adjustable folding stock, the ergonomics resemble that of an AR15 with an ambidextrous magazine release located under the tip of a trigger finger and bolt catch being on the left side of the weapon. The safety is also ambidextrous.

We will see how soon CZ will catch up with an official announcement, but it is already clear that this version of CZ 807 will join the ranks of modern battle rifles such as SCAR-H, HK-417, Beretta ARX-200, SIG 716 and many AR-10 variants available on the market. With such a diversity of variants, it looks like the golden age of .308 only begins now.

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog...s-new-bren-2-battle-rifle-in-7-62x51-308-win/

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## Path-Finder

Thunder.Storm said:


> Breaking news: CZ unveils new BREN 2 battle rifle in 7.62x51 (.308 Win)
> View attachment 498368


Already posted the pic  not this pic but of the rifle



Zarvan said:


> *Breaking news: CZ unveils new BREN 2 battle rifle in 7.62×51 (.308 Win)*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Today, Polish military magazine MILMAG (https://www.milmag.pl/) released pictures of the new CZ Bren 2 variant chambered in .308 Win.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Source: https://www.facebook.com/TheMilMag2/
> 
> 
> Looking at the pictures, we can see at least one interesting improvement- new M-Lock handguard.
> 
> In 2016, in Pakistan, when I was first introduced to CZ 807 series, my first question was – why do you still have a quad rail when you can have Key-Mode or M-Lock?
> 
> CZ 807 assault rifle is very light to begin with, but a modular handguard is a sure way to make it even lighter and improve the balance. The leader of a CZ trial team answered “the time for that will come’. I am glad the time finally came.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _CZ 807 with a quadrail_
> 
> 
> 
> _Author with a CZ 807 chambered in 7.62×39 in Pakistan_
> 
> Currently, there is no official information available about this new Bren 2 variant, but since the cat is out of the bag, I guess I can share what I know.
> 
> In 2016, Pakistan army held trials for its service weapon replacement. You can read more about it here. One of the contenders was CZ, it entered the trials with two different weapons, CZ 807 and… CZ 807.
> 
> Those two weapons, despite having exactly the same name, were chambered in two different calibers, 7.62×39 and 7.62×54. The first one entered the trials right away, the second one was introduced later. Shortly after the 7.62×51 variant was demonstrated for the first time, I managed to take some pictures and for over two years never showed them to anyone.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As far as the performance of CZ 807 during the trials – I don’t think it is ethical to share such information publically without the approval of the manufacturer. I can tell two things for sure – with match .308 ammunition, CZ 807 was very accurate, demonstrating solid groups at 100 meters distance. Second – in 2016, the .308 version was on a very early stage of development and rifle probably improved a lot in the last two years.
> 
> As far as specs: magazine capacity is 20 rounds, the rifle has a signature CZ adjustable folding stock, the ergonomics resemble that of an AR15 with an ambidextrous magazine release located under the tip of a trigger finger and bolt catch being on the left side of the weapon. The safety is also ambidextrous.
> 
> We will see how soon CZ will catch up with an official announcement, but it is already clear that this version of CZ 807 will join the ranks of modern battle rifles such as SCAR-H, HK-417, Beretta ARX-200, SIG 716 and many AR-10 variants available on the market. With such a diversity of variants, it looks like the golden age of .308 only begins now.
> 
> https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog...s-new-bren-2-battle-rifle-in-7-62x51-308-win/



Derwaish, Muffakir Hazrat @Zarvan . Koi Derwaishy, Muffakiry anayat farmao!!! You did say your sources mentioned there being no x51 CZ in Pakistan!!!

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Already posted the pic  not this pic but of the rifle
> 
> 
> 
> Derwaish, Muffakir Hazrat @Zarvan . Koi Derwaishy, Muffakiry anayat farmao!!! You did say your sources mentioned there being no x51 CZ in Pakistan!!!


On Rifle trials my main source is Horus. And two other guys.


----------



## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> On Rifle trials my main source is Horus. And two other guys.


Derwaish your thoughts on the rifle???


----------



## AMG_12

Zarvan said:


> On Rifle trials my main source is Horus. And two other guys.


All have been proven wrong multiple times.


----------



## Zarvan

Game.Invade said:


> All have been proven wrong multiple times.


None of them have been proven wrong Janab.



Game.Invade said:


> All have been proven wrong multiple times.


I have friends who even visited exact spots where testing was took place. They were standing their when soldiers were firing weapons. One guy visited who is MPT-76 fan for some reason, even he was told that SCAR is leading and Barretta had faced slight accuracy issue in our test. As for BREN it and AK both failed endurance test at least in first year not much idea after first year


----------



## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> None of them have been proven wrong Janab.
> 
> 
> I have friends who even visited exact spots where testing was took place. They were standing their when soldiers were firing weapons. One guy visited who is MPT-76 fan for some reason, even he was told that SCAR is leading and Barretta had faced slight accuracy issue in our test. As for BREN it and AK both failed endurance test at least in first year not much idea after first year


Muffakir you see the opposite has been reported. That AK did not fail!!

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Muffakir you see the opposite has been reported. That AK did not fail!!


Janab if you have bothered to look at the author he works for AK. So I don't trust him. I only posted this news for pictures of CZ 7.62 X 51


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## Zarvan




----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Zarvan said:


> *Breaking news: CZ unveils new BREN 2 battle rifle in 7.62×51 (.308 Win)*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Today, Polish military magazine MILMAG (https://www.milmag.pl/) released pictures of the new CZ Bren 2 variant chambered in .308 Win.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Source: https://www.facebook.com/TheMilMag2/
> 
> 
> Looking at the pictures, we can see at least one interesting improvement- new M-Lock handguard.
> 
> In 2016, in Pakistan, when I was first introduced to CZ 807 series, my first question was – why do you still have a quad rail when you can have Key-Mode or M-Lock?
> 
> CZ 807 assault rifle is very light to begin with, but a modular handguard is a sure way to make it even lighter and improve the balance. The leader of a CZ trial team answered “the time for that will come’. I am glad the time finally came.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _CZ 807 with a quadrail_
> 
> 
> 
> _Author with a CZ 807 chambered in 7.62×39 in Pakistan_
> 
> Currently, there is no official information available about this new Bren 2 variant, but since the cat is out of the bag, I guess I can share what I know.
> 
> In 2016, Pakistan army held trials for its service weapon replacement. You can read more about it here. One of the contenders was CZ, it entered the trials with two different weapons, CZ 807 and… CZ 807.
> 
> Those two weapons, despite having exactly the same name, were chambered in two different calibers, 7.62×39 and 7.62×54. The first one entered the trials right away, the second one was introduced later. Shortly after the 7.62×51 variant was demonstrated for the first time, I managed to take some pictures and for over two years never showed them to anyone.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As far as the performance of CZ 807 during the trials – I don’t think it is ethical to share such information publically without the approval of the manufacturer. I can tell two things for sure – with match .308 ammunition, CZ 807 was very accurate, demonstrating solid groups at 100 meters distance. Second – in 2016, the .308 version was on a very early stage of development and rifle probably improved a lot in the last two years.
> 
> As far as specs: magazine capacity is 20 rounds, the rifle has a signature CZ adjustable folding stock, the ergonomics resemble that of an AR15 with an ambidextrous magazine release located under the tip of a trigger finger and bolt catch being on the left side of the weapon. The safety is also ambidextrous.
> 
> We will see how soon CZ will catch up with an official announcement, but it is already clear that this version of CZ 807 will join the ranks of modern battle rifles such as SCAR-H, HK-417, Beretta ARX-200, SIG 716 and many AR-10 variants available on the market. With such a diversity of variants, it looks like the golden age of .308 only begins now.
> 
> https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog...s-new-bren-2-battle-rifle-in-7-62x51-308-win/


@Gryphon

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## Gryphon

As the 7.62x51mm battle rifle tender hasn't progressed, PA should trial the BREN 2, which is an improvement to the CZ 807 design.

BREN 2 uses a 25 round magazine, not sure if this magazine can be used with the CZ 807 as well.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Visually this new rifle reminds me of G3.


Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> @Gryphon



This is probably the longest thread PDF BTW


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Gryphon said:


> As the 7.62x51mm battle rifle tender hasn't progressed, PA should trial the BREN 2, which is an improvement to the CZ 807 design.
> 
> BREN 2 uses a 25 round magazine, not sure if this magazine can be used with the CZ 807 as well.


CZ basically has a complete set... @balixd @Rafi 

*7.62x51 mm - BREN-2 BR (official link)*






*7.62x39 mm - CZ-807 (official link)





.308 - CZ TSR (official link)




9x19 mm - CZ Scorpion EVO 3 A1 (official link)



*

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## Path-Finder

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1042463832969568261

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## Ahmet Pasha

Path-Finder said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1042463832969568261



He is starting to look old. But he still kicks a$$ compared to the American orangutan.

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## YeBeWarned

some of old pics from Ideas 2016 ..

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## polanski

*Beretta eyes cooperation with Serbian Zastava *



Vulin during his meeting with Franco Beretta; Source: Serbian Defence Ministry


BELGRADE (Serbia), (SeeNews) - Serbia's defence ministry said Italian firearms manufacturing company Beretta has expressed interest in cooperating with Serbian sector player Zastava Arms.

The government plans to launch by the end of the year negotiations with Beretta on potential future cooperation, the defence ministry said in a statement on Tuesday.

The Serbian government plans to adopt a regulation allowing the investment of foreign companies in the country's defence industry, the ministry added.

"Beretta is very interested in some factories in Serbia," defence minister Aleksandar Vulin said in a video file posted on the website of the defence ministry. On the other hand, Zastava Arms needs investments in its production processes, he noted.

Zastava Arms represents an excellent opportunity for investments, while the arrival of Beretta to Serbia would be a positive signal for all foreign investors in the sector, Vulin also said.

Vulin paid on Monday an official visit to Italy, where he met with the owner of Beretta, Franco Beretta.

Zastava Arms produces arms for military and civil usage. The company, based in Kragujevac, in central Serbia, exports hunting and sporting weapons to over 30 countries in the world, data from the corporate website shows.

https://seenews.com/news/beretta-ey...-defence-ministry-588213#sthash.uqns2qBN.dpuf

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## polanski

Zastava recently signed a contract with an undisclosed Arab Country to build four factories to manufacture Arms and Ammunitions of NATO standards. The contract worth almost $500 million. 

I am guessing the country would be UAE as yugoimports cooperates with UAE on standoff missiles project. 

Pakistan may follow the path of Indonesia who cooperates with Belgium or follow the path of UAE on small arms production. 

India currently cooperates with Czech republic and Israel on small arms production. 

Choice is yours.

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## Bossman

polanski said:


> Zastava recently signed a contract with an undisclosed Arab Country to build four factories to manufacture Arms and Ammunitions of NATO standards. The contract worth almost $500 million.
> 
> I am guessing the country would be UAE as yugoimports cooperates with UAE on standoff missiles project.
> 
> Pakistan may follow the path of Indonesia who cooperates with Belgium or follow the path of UAE on small arms production.
> 
> India currently cooperates with Czech republic and Israel on small arms production.
> 
> Choice is yours.



Big difference in your comparasions. Pakistan has a very well established small weapons industry. We have worked with the Germans and others for more than 50 years. We don’t need greenfield projects like the Arabs. We need upgrades both of the product and manufacturing.

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## GriffinsRule

It means more competition in selling ammunition to other countries as well. But we have a large need for our military as it is already


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## Thunder.Storm

AR15s manufactured locally in Pakistan.
In last few years our local manufacturers have come a very long place. with use of latest machinery & material import they are able to make reliable weapons at a decent price.
One good thing that came out of Govt's import ban is that it allowed local industry to nourish & develop itself further

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## monitor

Thunder.Storm said:


> AR15s manufactured locally in Pakistan.
> In last few years our local manufacturers have come a very long place. with use of latest machinery & material import they are able to make reliable weapons at a decent price.
> One good thing that came out of Govt's import ban is that it allowed local industry to nourish & develop itself further
> View attachment 502027
> View attachment 502028
> View attachment 502029



How it produced in Pakistan under OEM license or just copy / reverse engineer ?


----------



## SSGcommandoPAK

Thunder.Storm said:


> AR15s manufactured locally in Pakistan.
> In last few years our local manufacturers have come a very long place. with use of latest machinery & material import they are able to make reliable weapons at a decent price.
> One good thing that came out of Govt's import ban is that it allowed local industry to nourish & develop itself further
> View attachment 502027
> View attachment 502028
> View attachment 502029


TOSS exhibition islamabad

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## Path-Finder

Thunder.Storm said:


> AR15s manufactured locally in Pakistan.
> In last few years our local manufacturers have come a very long place. with use of latest machinery & material import they are able to make reliable weapons at a decent price.
> One good thing that came out of Govt's import ban is that it allowed local industry to nourish & develop itself further
> View attachment 502027
> View attachment 502028
> View attachment 502029


Nice


----------



## Thunder.Storm



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## Thunder.Storm

monitor said:


> How it produced in Pakistan under OEM license or just copy / reverse engineer ?


Copied.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Pakistan Army ' said:


> TOSS exhibition islamabad


I'd prioritize these efforts. Can someone ID the companies?


----------



## Path-Finder

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I'd prioritize these efforts. Can someone ID the companies?


you can maybe ask;


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1045976016894795776


----------



## polanski

monitor said:


> How it produced in Pakistan under OEM license or just copy / reverse engineer ?


Zastava, Colt, Norinco and Heckler & Kock manufacture a variant of AR type rifles for civilian market. Pakistan maybe late to the party. Norinco and Zastava are two bigger civilian arms exporters.


----------



## Thorough Pro

Most probably they are low quality hand made in Derra clones




polanski said:


> Zastava, Colt, Norinco and Heckler & Kock manufacture a variant of AR type rifles for civilian market. Pakistan maybe late to the party. Norinco and Zastava are two bigger civilian arms exporters.


----------



## SSGcommandoPAK

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I'd prioritize these efforts. Can someone ID the companies?


The one making the AR is ( Ghazi Arm Industries Peshawar), contact number - ( 03339555863 - 03000555863 )


----------



## Thunder.Storm

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I'd prioritize these efforts. Can someone ID the companies?


https://www.facebook.com/pages/category/Company/Ghazi-arms-industries-1583043341980950/

Ghazi arms industries
BL-1
12 Bore semi auto shot gun




Replicas by ghazi ind.


----------



## Naveed66

CZ 807 7.62x51
A likely candidate to replace g3

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## Path-Finder

Path-Finder said:


>


Why not provide vocational training and maybe there will be a firearms industry, no need to import!


----------



## Arsalan

Thunder.Storm said:


> https://www.facebook.com/pages/category/Company/Ghazi-arms-industries-1583043341980950/
> 
> Ghazi arms industries
> BL-1
> 12 Bore semi auto shot gun
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Replicas by ghazi ind.


How is the quality, any users?
@balixd bro?



Path-Finder said:


> Why not provide vocational training and maybe there will be a firearms industry, no need to import!


There was a plan regarding this in Musharraf era, sadly not much was done on it later on and things fell apart. Would have been excellent really.


----------



## Path-Finder

Arsalan said:


> How is the quality, any users?
> @balixd bro?
> 
> 
> There was a plan regarding this in Musharraf era, sadly not much was done on it later on and things fell apart. Would have been excellent really.


I hope the current gov does it. Wasting talented people is a crime.


----------



## Amaa'n

Arsalan said:


> How is the quality, any users?
> @balixd bro?
> 
> 
> There was a plan regarding this in Musharraf era, sadly not much was done on it later on and things fell apart. Would have been excellent really.


they had an outlet at TOSS, thanks to humble fellow who honored my request to field strip the weapon and inspect it.....while i was doing i was joined my two Elite Police commandos who were out for window shopping.....like other companies his piece had a tight fitting two....one complain i have been informed of is that in local guns Upper & Lower receiver have a gap, but on his piece they were fitted tight, no gap.....i inquired him about Upper & lower receiver only, he quoted a good price of 45k........and also offered to procure parts as i was more interested in building the rifle myself.....
I will be visiting his factory either this week or next week.....



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I'd prioritize these efforts. Can someone ID the companies?





Thunder.Storm said:


> https://www.facebook.com/pages/category/Company/Ghazi-arms-industries-1583043341980950/
> 
> Ghazi arms industries
> BL-1
> 12 Bore semi auto shot gun
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Replicas by ghazi ind.


These are by Gul Sharif Arms -

Thunder Storm bro, Ghazi Arms had only one AR to showcase, his stall was just opposite to Gul Shariff Arms

View attachment 502028

@Thunder.Storm @Bilal Khan (Quwa) this AR is by Ghazi Arms Industries

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## Thunder.Storm

Arsalan said:


> How is the quality, any users?
> @balixd bro?
> 
> 
> There was a plan regarding this in Musharraf era, sadly not much was done on it later on and things fell apart. Would have been excellent really.


They don't have state of the art machines and engineers. Quality is good but not upto the mark.

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## Thunder.Storm

balixd said:


> they had an outlet at TOSS, thanks to humble fellow who honored my request to field strip the weapon and inspect it.....while i was doing i was joined my two Elite Police commandos who were out for window shopping.....like other companies his piece had a tight fitting two....one complain i have been informed of is that in local guns Upper & Lower receiver have a gap, but on his piece they were fitted tight, no gap.....i inquired him about Upper & lower receiver only, he quoted a good price of 45k........and also offered to procure parts as i was more interested in building the rifle myself.....
> I will be visiting his factory either this week or next week.....
> 
> 
> 
> These are by Gul Sharif Arms -
> 
> Thunder Storm bro, Ghazi Arms had only one AR to showcase, his stall was just opposite to Gul Shariff Arms
> 
> View attachment 502028
> 
> @Thunder.Storm @Bilal Khan (Quwa) this AR is by Ghazi Arms Industries


Sorry. But i copied it from their fb page. Thanks for your reply.


----------



## Amaa'n

Thunder.Storm said:


> They don't have state of the art machines and engineers. Quality is good but not upto the mark.


sorry but I will disagree with you on the subject matter......weapons produced these days are made from Imported aircraft grade Aluminum on CNC machines, they have the Digital engraving machines now too....
the only problem we are facing with local pistols is Consistency ....... while doing the hand fitting of different things they will not keep a Quality Control check which can lead to problems.....I had few pistols made, been to factories in Peshawer. You get your things made there, you test your stuff before bringing it home, and you are good to go. that weapon is going to serve you good.

However if you pick weapon from same manufactrer from your local dealer chances are it will be a lemon, the reason being, those pieces are mass produced for a lower price.....


----------



## Thunder.Storm

balixd said:


> sorry but I will disagree with you on the subject matter......weapons produced these days are made from Imported aircraft grade Aluminum on CNC machines, they have the Digital engraving machines now too....
> the only problem we are facing with local pistols is Consistency ....... while doing the hand fitting of different things they will not keep a Quality Control check which can lead to problems.....I had few pistols made, been to factories in Peshawer. You get your things made there, you test your stuff before bringing it home, and you are good to go. that weapon is going to serve you good.
> 
> However if you pick weapon from same manufactrer from your local dealer chances are it will be a lemon, the reason being, those pieces are mass produced for a lower price.....


Actually i was talking for militry use not civil.


----------



## Path-Finder

balixd said:


> they had an outlet at TOSS, thanks to humble fellow who honored my request to field strip the weapon and inspect it.....while i was doing i was joined my two Elite Police commandos who were out for window shopping.....like other companies his piece had a tight fitting two....one complain i have been informed of is that in local guns Upper & Lower receiver have a gap, but on his piece they were fitted tight, no gap.....i inquired him about Upper & lower receiver only, he quoted a good price of 45k........and also offered to procure parts as i was more interested in building the rifle myself.....
> I will be visiting his factory either this week or next week.....
> 
> 
> 
> These are by Gul Sharif Arms -
> 
> Thunder Storm bro, Ghazi Arms had only one AR to showcase, his stall was just opposite to Gul Shariff Arms
> 
> View attachment 502028
> 
> @Thunder.Storm @Bilal Khan (Quwa) this AR is by Ghazi Arms Industries


so you were at this exhibition? any pics?


----------



## Amaa'n

Path-Finder said:


> so you were at this exhibition? any pics?


In gun and gear section I have a thread running for toss2018

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## Arsalan

balixd said:


> they had an outlet at TOSS, thanks to humble fellow who honored my request to field strip the weapon and inspect it.....while i was doing i was joined my two Elite Police commandos who were out for window shopping.....like other companies his piece had a tight fitting two....one complain i have been informed of is that in local guns Upper & Lower receiver have a gap, but on his piece they were fitted tight, no gap.....i inquired him about Upper & lower receiver only, he quoted a good price of 45k........and also offered to procure parts as i was more interested in building the rifle myself.....
> I will be visiting his factory either this week or next week.....
> 
> 
> 
> These are by Gul Sharif Arms -
> 
> Thunder Storm bro, Ghazi Arms had only one AR to showcase, his stall was just opposite to Gul Shariff Arms
> 
> View attachment 502028
> 
> @Thunder.Storm @Bilal Khan (Quwa) this AR is by Ghazi Arms Industries


Thanks to your thread, i looked up for some new daggers and knives, found a couple of guys who have good online stores. Waiting for articles i have ordered.


----------



## Zarvan

@Horus Janab will you bother to reveal the Rifle which is selected in Rifle trials because I seriously doubt that you have no idea about it


----------



## Rana4pak

Zarvan said:


> @Horus Janab will you bother to reveal the Rifle which is selected in Rifle trials because I seriously doubt that you have no idea about it


HAZRAT na ker aik he ta Tara source ha is forum ta. Keep your trust at Horus

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## Path-Finder

Rana4pak said:


> HAZRAT na ker aik he ta Tara source ha is forum ta. Keep your trust at Horus

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## Path-Finder



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## YeBeWarned

Zarvan said:


> @Horus Janab will you bother to reveal the Rifle which is selected in Rifle trials because I seriously doubt that you have no idea about it



you really think that he will just expose the information to you or on a forum like this , with your little temptation ? how old are you ?


----------



## Zarvan

Starlord said:


> you really think that he will just expose the information to you or on a forum like this , with your little temptation ? how old are you ?


He exposes things and this is not that big news. And as IDEAS is approaching I am expecting some major news.


----------



## khanasifm

__ https://www.facebook.com/





7.62x51

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## YeBeWarned

Zarvan said:


> He exposes things and this is not that big news. And as IDEAS is approaching I am expecting some major news.



As long as he doesn't get the clearance to reveal he won't no matter what you or anyone else says, if the decision is made so somehow the top brass already know about it and in fact some of the preparation would already been started to manufactured a 600,000+ Rifles for PA alone .. you need that required a huge advancement of POF alone ? Ideas don't really bring much news as far as i know , from the experience of PDF alone , i can say things over the years i learn after Ideas they are already been rumored or discussed on PDF before the ideas event take place , so dont keep your hopes high .

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## Zarvan

Starlord said:


> As long as he doesn't get the clearance to reveal he won't no matter what you or anyone else says, if the decision is made so somehow the top brass already know about it and in fact some of the preparation would already been started to manufactured a 600,000+ Rifles for PA alone .. you need that required a huge advancement of POF alone ? Ideas don't really bring much news as far as i know , from the experience of PDF alone , i can say things over the years i learn after Ideas they are already been rumored or discussed on PDF before the ideas event take place , so dont keep your hopes high .


I know IDEAS don't bring much news that is why I am not keeping any expectations from this year's IDEAS and only thing I have hope about this that we would finally would get to know the winner


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

IDEAS brings plenty of news, it's just that a lot of you guys don't pay attention to it. Most of the time, everyone's focus is on the specific weapon system (esp. big ticket items), but rarely on the more boring stuff like subsystems, joint R&D MoUs, etc.

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## Malik Alashter

pzfz said:


> It's not about looks. An AK based platform suits the relatively cheap and not as well educated and not as heavily invested soldiers that countries outside the west have. Some say the supposed accuracy of AR/HK based platforms are reason enough to go with them, but a simple question has to be asked: how many soldiers can handle and use that particular AR platform to its full extent? Not everyone can or will be a marksman in the army. Barely any meaningful engagements beyond the 300/400 m that an AK can do very well.


Neither India nor Pakistan as rich as the Scandinavian countries of Finland and Sweden yet both adopted a home made AK,s 
The best thing about AK is it's reliability in the heat of battlefield something that won't fail you when you need it you don't depend on accuracy and high quality material when it stops when you need it

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## Arsalan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IDEAS brings plenty of news, it's just that a lot of you guys don't pay attention to it. Most of the time, everyone's focus is on the specific weapon system (esp. big ticket items), but rarely on the more boring stuff like subsystems, joint R&D MoUs, etc.


Sir you are arguing with someone who have been saying "This year the gun winner will be confirmed at IDEAS" even since the idea of IDEAS came in to the mind of the authorities!

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## django

Path-Finder said:


>


TBH with you bro, even the good Hazrat @Zarvan has given up on this piece of junk and truth be told it never was going to be procured especially NOW considering our fiscal environment.Kudos bhai

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## Zarvan

django said:


> TBH with you bro, even the good Hazrat @Zarvan has given up on this piece of junk and truth be told it never was going to be procured especially NOW considering our fiscal environment.Kudos bhai


When we decide to get the weapon we would get it Janab. No weapon talks have been slowed down due the fiscal issues.


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## django

Zarvan said:


> When we decide to get the weapon we would get it Janab. No weapon talks have been slowed down due the fiscal issues.


Is that a fact!!!.Hazrat no need to be delusional it is not coming, never was, only in your over enthusiastic imagination.Kudos Hazrat

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## The Eagle

django said:


> TBH with you bro, even the good Hazrat @Zarvan has given up on this piece of junk and truth be told it never was going to be procured especially NOW considering our fiscal environment.Kudos bhai



Reciprocating Charging handle (moves along the bolt/ejector), is hell of a mess with SCAR Rifles. It will give you a solid pain if you hold it through mag+upper assembly (Chamber) area in close/curved angel/cornered peek shots and can cause malfunction.

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## Zarvan

django said:


> Is that a fact!!!.Hazrat no need to be delusional it is not coming, never was, only in your over enthusiastic imagination.Kudos Hazrat


We just made a demand to Russia and even with Italy we are in talks for few stuff. Janab things are growing.

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## Cuirassier

COAS seen checking out Italian Weapons, waddup?


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## Path-Finder

django said:


> TBH with you bro, even the good Hazrat @Zarvan has given up on this piece of junk and truth be told it never was going to be procured especially NOW considering our fiscal environment.Kudos bhai



These guys are supposedly experienced with the rifle in actual combat and what they say seems to be same as other complaints against FN SCAR.

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## Zarvan



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## JPMM




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## LegitimateIdiot

JPMM said:


>


Thats a lot of recoil


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## CriticalThought

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IDEAS brings plenty of news, it's just that a lot of you guys don't pay attention to it. Most of the time, everyone's focus is on the specific weapon system (esp. big ticket items), but rarely on the more boring stuff like subsystems, joint R&D MoUs, etc.



Well, we have you to highlight those through quwa right?

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## Path-Finder

LegitimateIdiot said:


> Thats a lot of recoil


As long as recoil is manageable when compared to g3 Which has extreme recoil then its an improvement.

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## Path-Finder



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## Path-Finder



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## pzfz

Malik Alashter said:


> Neither India nor Pakistan as rich as the Scandinavian countries of Finland and Sweden yet both adopted a home made AK,s
> The best thing about AK is it's reliability in the heat of battlefield something that won't fail you when you need it you don't depend on accuracy and high quality material when it stops when you need it



Finland, back when they had no choice, since when did Sweden adopt an AK? It's an FN FNC.


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## S-A-B-E-R->

I know The Entire process of acquiring a new BFR is delayed so for the time being here is some good stuff about the current G# and y we still have it.


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## Path-Finder




----------



## AR KHAN

GIGN CZ Bren

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## Ahmet Pasha

In your last pic what weapon is the guy in lead carrying??
CZ evo or radom MSBS??


AR KHAN said:


> GIGN CZ Bren
> 
> View attachment 516000
> View attachment 516001
> View attachment 516002
> View attachment 516003
> View attachment 516004


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## AR KHAN

Ahmet Pasha said:


> In your last pic what weapon is the guy in lead carrying??
> CZ evo or radom MSBS??



Bren with stock folded.


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## Ahmet Pasha

No if you compare it with the BREN on the left it looks different.


AR KHAN said:


> Bren with stock folded.


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## SurvivoR

I think it is a Bren with a folded stock too. The difference, if you look closely is because of the angle and the add on torch to the side of it.

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## Zhukov

Bren2 all the way. But don't know how long the way is for a replacement for Pak G3


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## PAR 5

So much fanfare and Hullabaloo, waste of time and funds, end result was ZERO. Matter dead and buried until next time


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## Zarvan

PAR 5 said:


> So much fanfare and Hullabaloo, waste of time and funds, end result was ZERO. Matter dead and buried until next time


Matter is fully alive

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## AR KHAN

Ahmet Pasha said:


> No if you compare it with the BREN on the left it looks different.


It is. Only because of the angle and the folded stock, it looks different.


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## Path-Finder

The CZ body armor seems nice!

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## RescueRanger

AR KHAN said:


> GIGN CZ Bren
> 
> View attachment 516000
> View attachment 516001
> View attachment 516002
> View attachment 516003
> View attachment 516004


Good luck wearing all that kit in Pakistan's weather. Hyperventilation anyone?

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## Zarvan



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## Zarvan

RescueRanger said:


> Good luck wearing all that kit in Pakistan's weather. Hyperventilation anyone?


The vests Pakistani soldiers wear in Pakistan also are really heavy ones. We need to get new technology of BP vests. Some private companies are making good ones

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## Thunder.Storm

Rifle replacements delayed for another five [emoji641] years due to economic situation.


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## Zarvan

Thunder.Storm said:


> Rifle replacements delayed for another five [emoji641] years due to economic situation.


@Horus Any comments


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## monitor

Thunder.Storm said:


> Rifle replacements delayed for another five [emoji641] years due to economic situation.




If it's true then Pakistan can buy couple of thousand as rifle as stop gap and upgrade current G3 for next decade before new rifle induct.


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## Kompromat

Zarvan said:


> @Horus Any comments



I don't think so. Its a 10 year deal worth $1.3b. They may take it slow but the production will start. POF has to lay off employees otherwise.

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## RescueRanger

Zarvan said:


> The vests Pakistani soldiers wear in Pakistan also are really heavy ones. We need to get new technology of BP vests. Some private companies are making good ones



The lyra vest is not heavy, the trauma plates make them heavy. Any vest no matter the manufacturer will be heavy if you add plates, even my black hawk is heavy, just less bulky so you can add a battle belt to the bottom or wear rucksack over it.

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## Path-Finder

Hazrat @Zarvan any news on rifle selection???? Or is it time to scrap this thread!!

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat @Zarvan any news on rifle selection???? Or is it time to scrap this thread!!


No news yet. And no not the time to scrap the thread what I know is talks are on. With How many companies what is the current status they are not telling that.

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## dr_jawwad71

So we can say for sure that nobody knows which rifle will replace G3 and Chinese type 56.


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## Muhammad Omar

dr_jawwad71 said:


> So we can say for sure that nobody knows which rifle will replace G3 and Chinese type 56.


Yupe all are guessing from like two and a half years

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## django

Thread should be locked, no new rifle is coming for foreseeable future, in mean time AKM, Type-56, Bulgarian AK and G-3 a darn sight better than third rate piece of junk INSAS and antiquated Romanian AK-47,,,,folks we still have edge over the enemy.

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## Zarvan

django said:


> Thread should be locked, no new rifle is coming for foreseeable future, in mean time AKM, Type-56, Bulgarian AK and G-3 a darn sight better than third rate piece of junk INSAS and antiquated Romanian AK-47,,,,folks we still have edge over the enemy.


no things are happening

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## django

Zarvan said:


> *no things* are happening


Exactly "No things" are happening, time to declare moratorium, you have led us all astray long enough Hazrat .Kudos Hazrat

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## Mumm-Ra

django said:


> Exactly "No things" are happening, time to declare moratorium, you have led us all astray long enough Hazrat .Kudos Hazrat



That's a shame man. I was hoping that something could have come out after all these years. Part of me even wishes that SCAR is chosen as a surprise

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## django

Xlvee01 said:


> That's a shame man. I was hoping that something could have come out after all these years. Part of me even wishes that SCAR is chosen as a surprise


Same here bro, though SCAR was being pushed by Hazrat for reasons unknown, I suspect the money will be used to procure artillery, besides tbh our current rifle inventory is perfectly fine and better than the opposition, let us fix the economy (we are on the right path) then we can upgrade the perfectly adequate weapons we already have in service.Kudos bhai

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## Rafi

django said:


> Same here bro, though SCAR was being pushed by Hazrat for reasons unknown, I suspect the money will be used to procure artillery, besides tbh our current rifle inventory is perfectly fine and better than the opposition, let us fix the economy (we are on the right path) then we can upgrade the perfectly adequate weapons we already have in service.Kudos bhai



Exactly right, trials have a winner but funding is needed for other projects. The infantry will have to be patient. The have adequate kit for now.

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## Zarvan

@Suff Shikan Shikan




























@Suff Shikan

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## Kompromat

I need one of these for my birthday. @cabatli_53

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## Quwa

Rafi said:


> Exactly right, trials have a winner but funding is needed for other projects. The infantry will have to be patient. The have adequate kit for now.


Transitioning POF to a new platform doesn't need to dependent on Army procurement. 

There are 2 parts to this rifle project:

The cost of upgrading POF and licensing the design
The cost of equipping the Army
If the total cost of the program is $1.3 bn, then the cost of transitioning POF is $300 m. That might take 1-2 years at the minimum, but after that, certain forces can be re-equipped, e.g. SSW, SSG/SSG-N, LCB, etc. Moreover, POF and the OEM can jointly market the rifle to outside markets, maybe pull exports in the lead-up to Army purchases.

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## JohnWick

Zarvan said:


> View attachment 240839
> 
> Please identify the Gun which the Ranger on right is carrying
> @Horus @Icarus @kaonalpha @balixd @Irfan Baloch @The Guy and others @Wolfhound @Sulman Badshah


Glock in a case.


----------



## ali_raza

i have not missed a word in this thread from 3 year but at last nothing

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## django

ali_raza said:


> i have not missed a word in this thread from 3 year but at last nothing


409 pages of misinformation all due to the shear and utter OVER ENTHUSIASM of the good Hazrat @Zarvan , if anyone is to blame for this game of "blind mans bluff" it is the good Hazrat .Kudos Sir
"cough" "cough" @Path-Finder

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## ali_raza

django said:


> 409 pages of misinformation all due to the shear and utter OVER ENTHUSIASM of the good Hazrat @Zarvan , if anyone is to blame for this game of "blind mans bluff" it is the good Hazrat .Kudos Sir
> "cough" "cough" @Path-Finder


haha scar ke dewane

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## Ahmet Pasha

Zarvan be like....

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## Amaa'n

Horus said:


> I need one of these for my birthday. @cabatli_53


Customs is working on drafting an SOP, those with NTN & valid license will be able to import one weapon in two years , you can import then

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## Kompromat

balixd said:


> Customs is working on drafting an SOP, those with NTN & valid license will be able to import one weapon in two years , you can import then



Keep me posted.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

balixd said:


> Customs is working on drafting an SOP, those with NTN & valid license will be able to import one weapon in two years , you can import then


PB's included?


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## Amaa'n

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> PB's included?


it SRO doesn't specify the category of the weapon, PB or NPB, as long as individual holds a license....

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## DESERT FIGHTER

balixd said:


> it SRO doesn't specify the category of the weapon, PB or NPB, as long as individual holds a license....


Got a 223 license.


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## Amaa'n

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Got a 223 license.


i got one too, arranging parts these days to build my own AR, looking for Nato Barrel & BCG for now....

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## DESERT FIGHTER

balixd said:


> i got one too, arranging parts these days to build my own AR, looking for Nato Barrel & BCG for now....


I know bro, thats why im interested in your project. 

I would like to put my license to good use too.



balixd said:


> i got one too, arranging parts these days to build my own AR, looking for Nato Barrel & BCG for now....


What about the other parts ? Norinco CQs?
How much did it cost you bro. I mean the parts you have in your inventory right now.


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## Path-Finder

balixd said:


> i got one too, arranging parts these days to build my own AR, looking for Nato Barrel & BCG for now....


is that possible in Pakistan getting components to build an AR? would you be interested in this project I thinks its a great AR project by people who done their research.

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## Amaa'n

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> I know bro, thats why im interested in your project.
> 
> I would like to put my license to good use too.
> 
> 
> What about the other parts ? Norinco CQs?
> How much did it cost you bro. I mean the parts you have in your inventory right now.


they are building upper and lower on cnc machines using 7071 aluminium which is required for AR....no big science....rest of the parts i will be sourcing locally from private sellers or those who are coming from abroad....mostly its pins ans springs that can be brought in checked luggage....
i will take time with this project due to financial constraints and other commitments hence i have set the completion date for March....i will share details as i progresss



Path-Finder said:


> is that possible in Pakistan getting components to build an AR? would you be interested in this project I thinks its a great AR project by people who done their research.


you can get mil spec parts in peshawar thanks to the on going war across the border, match grade or custom stuff is very very rare to find


----------



## khanasifm

https://www.defence24.com/polish-support-weapons-for-the-tytan-infantry-combat-system


----------



## SSGcommandoPAK



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## Path-Finder

SSGcommandoPAK said:


>


Nice Pic. Got more? Hazrat @Zarvan

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## Zarvan

SSGcommandoPAK said:


>


@Horus It seems you were right induction has begun

It looks like G3 will be replaced by SCAR H and Type 56 will be replaced by CZ 807 INSHALLAH


----------



## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> @Horus It seems you were right induction has begun
> 
> It looks like G3 will be replaced by SCAR H and Type 56 will be replaced by CZ 807 INSHALLAH



Induction has begun? I don't think this is a recent pic. There is a third barrel in the photo and its neither CZ or FN!


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Induction has begun? I don't think this is a recent pic. There is a third barrel in the photo and its neither CZ or FN!


That is Baretta


----------



## django

Zarvan said:


> @Horus It seems you were right induction has begun
> 
> It looks like G3 will be replaced by SCAR H and Type 56 will be replaced by CZ 807 INSHALLAH


Relax Hazrat its a pic from the trials, nothing has been inducted!!!!


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## Path-Finder

django said:


> Relax Hazrat its a pic from the trials, nothing has been inducted!!!!


Hazrat @Zarvan you got far too excited far too quickly. Be cool its just a picture no need to jump to conclusions 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1076873822761074688

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## django

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat @Zarvan you got far too excited far too quickly. Be cool its just a picture no need to jump to conclusions
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1076873822761074688


LOL Hazrat really needs to ....Kudos bhai


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## mingle

@Zarvan when U throwing party??? It's a good gun local assembly would be great. So G3 would go to police and other LEAs.


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## Path-Finder

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1076915535881879552

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## django

Path-Finder said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1076915535881879552


It seems "PATIENCE" is definitely not one of the good Hazrats "VIRTUES". Kudos bhai

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## Maxpane

Agree


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## JohnWick

Zarvan said:


> These upgrades are the reason why we need to replace G3. Every upgrade results in increase in weight and even size


First time reading that upgrades increase weight inatead of decreasing it.

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## Arsalan

JohnWick said:


> First time reading that upgrades increase weight inatead of decreasing it.


Good point. Actually we did took care of some of that weight increase by using polymer base. I think he was referring to the use of sights and scopes as an upgrade.

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## JohnWick

Arsalan said:


> polymer base


Carbon fibre weight is less than alloys of steel&iron.

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## Maarkhoor

JohnWick said:


> Carbon fibre weight is less than alloys of steel&iron.


But guns made with carbon fiber have limited shelf life due to wear & tear, they can't be life ling buddies.

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## JohnWick

Maarkhoor said:


> But guns made with carbon fiber have limited shelf life due to wear & tear, they can't be life ling buddies.


I think these are used in many rifles such as cz-bren,FN scar Land mpt76 the Turkish one.

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## Maarkhoor

JohnWick said:


> I think these are used in many rifles such as cz-bren,FN scar Land mpt76 the Turkish one.


Yeah because of weight reduction but these countries themselves producing and selling so replacement is not an issue but a country like Pakistan who would purchase such rifles would need continuous supplies....my friend budget is the main issue.....Make wise decision by choosing AK and build at home under license just like G3.

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## Kompromat

SSW/SSGN are likely to adopt a new modular rifle ahead of other services.

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## Cuirassier

Get the CZ 807 on ToT, G3 is already largely replaced by T56, CZs will replace T56 entirely, can retain G3 in DMR config for section level. M4s to equip the LCBs entirely, and SCAR-H is inducted for supplementing SSG/SSW/SSGN inventory, too expensive for army to adopt.

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## Super Falcon

So pak not buying new rifle horus maarkhor


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## JohnWick

Maarkhoor said:


> Yeah because of weight reduction but these countries themselves producing and selling so replacement is not an issue but a country like Pakistan who would purchase such rifles would need continuous supplies....my friend budget is the main issue.....Make wise decision by choosing AK and build at home under license just like G3.


TOT is what we need.

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## Zarvan

TF141 said:


> Get the CZ 807 on ToT, G3 is already largely replaced by T56, CZs will replace T56 entirely, can retain G3 in DMR config for section level. M4s to equip the LCBs entirely, and SCAR-H is inducted for supplementing SSG/SSW/SSGN inventory, too expensive for army to adopt.


For GOD sake we knew price of SCAR H when we started trials so please stop giving this too expensive thing for Army to adopt.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

TF141 said:


> Get the CZ 807 on ToT, G3 is already largely replaced by T56, CZs will replace T56 entirely, can retain G3 in DMR config for section level. M4s to equip the LCBs entirely, and SCAR-H is inducted for supplementing SSG/SSW/SSGN inventory, too expensive for army to adopt.


They should do CZ BREN-2 BR for replacing the G-3 (7.62x51) and CZ BREN-2 for replacing the Type 56 (7.62x39). They can also look at the CZ TSR as a mainstay sniper rifle, Scorpion EVO2 for SMG needs, and CZ P-10 for handguns.

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## Arsalan

JohnWick said:


> Carbon fibre weight is less than alloys of steel&iron.


This is what i am saying dear. That we addressed the weight increases by adding polymer base (to decrease the weight)  



Arsalan said:


> Good point. Actually we did *took care of* some of that weight increase by using polymer base. I think he was referring to the use of sights and scopes as an upgrade.


----------



## Nilgiri

django said:


> It seems "PATIENCE" is definitely not one of the good Hazrats "VIRTUES". Kudos bhai



I voted SCAR in solidarity with mah homie Zarvan.

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## django

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1080674840284196870


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## Path-Finder

django said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1080674840284196870



hmmmn thats nothing new they just arrived to the part very late these upgrades have been offered by the US more than 15 years ago Hazrat @Zarvan 

anyway for your derwaishy and mufakry Hazrat @Zarvan here is something more detailed on the AK

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## Armani

Hi all, Long time since I visited this thread.

Any updates on the selection/deal process? I think last I heard SCAR was touted as leading contestant for G3 replacement and 7.62x39 CZ BREN for replacing AKs.


----------



## pzfz

Zarvan said:


> For GOD sake we knew price of SCAR H when we started trials so please stop giving this too expensive thing for Army to adopt.



you can keep screaming and still not make any sense. SCAR is an overpriced tool that PakArmy could do just as well without.


----------



## Nasr

Well I voted for CZ BREN2, lets see what Pakistan Army selects. Whichever one they do select, I hope its one which gives our soldiers an advantage over the enemy.


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## Zarvan

Kenyan security forces responding to #RiversideAttack CZ Bren 2 (7.62x39) and CZ Scorpion Evo 3 (9mm)

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Kenyan security forces responding to #RiversideAttack CZ Bren 2 (7.62x39) and CZ Scorpion Evo 3 (9mm)



Wah Hazrat @Zarvan


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## Zarvan




----------



## monitor

India have just ordered 750000 AK-203 for their army from Russia to replace insas rifle of army . Pakistan had short listed AK-103 as their one of candidate for replacing G-3 and Type-56 . but as India already given ordered for AK-203 AK-103 option for Pakistan has gone. best option for Pkistan might the either CZ-807 Bren 2 or FN SCAR.


----------



## Ahmet Pasha

Wabout Beretta ARX series???


monitor said:


> India have just ordered 750000 AK-203 for their army from Russia to replace insas rifle of army . Pakistan had short listed AK-103 as their one of candidate for replacing G-3 and Type-56 . but as India already given ordered for AK-203 AK-103 option for Pakistan has gone. best option for Pkistan might the either CZ-807 Bren 2 or FN SCAR.


----------



## monitor

*Breaking news: CZ unveils new BREN 2 battle rifle in 7.62×51 (.308 Win)*

Posted September 12, 2018 in Breaking News, Daily News, Defense, Product Announcement, Rifles by Vladimir Onokoy with 77 Comments
Tags: Beretta ARX-200, CZ 807, HK 417, SCAR-H, sig 716






Today, Polish military magazine MILMAG (https://www.milmag.pl/) released pictures of the new CZ Bren 2 variant chambered in .308 Win.










Source: https://www.facebook.com/TheMilMag2/ 

Follow the The Firearm Blog Daily News Channel

Looking at the pictures, we can see at least one interesting improvement- new M-Lock handguard.

In 2016, in Pakistan, when I was first introduced to CZ 807 series, my first question was – why do you still have a quad rail when you can have Key-Mode or M-Lock?

CZ 807 assault rifle is very light to begin with, but a modular handguard is a sure way to make it even lighter and improve the balance. The leader of a CZ trial team answered “the time for that will come’. I am glad the time finally came.




_CZ 807 with a quadrail_



_Author with a CZ 807 chambered in 7.62×39 in Pakistan_

Currently, there is no official information available about this new Bren 2 variant, but since the cat is out of the bag, I guess I can share what I know.

In 2016, Pakistan army held trials for its service weapon replacement. You can read more about it here. One of the contenders was CZ, it entered the trials with two different weapons, CZ 807 and… CZ 807.

Those two weapons, despite having exactly the same name, were chambered in two different calibers, 7.62×39 and 7.62×51. The first one entered the trials right away, the second one was introduced later. Shortly after the 7.62×51 variant was demonstrated for the first time, I managed to take some pictures and for over two years never showed them to anyone.











As far as the performance of CZ 807 during the trials – I don’t think it is ethical to share such information publically without the approval of the manufacturer. I can tell two things for sure – with match .308 ammunition, CZ 807 was very accurate, demonstrating solid groups at 100 meters distance. Second – in 2016, the .308 version was on a very early stage of development and rifle probably improved a lot in the last two years.

As far as specs: magazine capacity of the 2016 version was 20 rounds, but according to a TFB reader Kovacs Jeno “magazine is 25 rounder, according to CZ demonstrators in Bzenec” (thanks!).

Rifle has a signature CZ adjustable folding stock, the ergonomics resemble that of an AR15 with an ambidextrous magazine release located under the tip of a trigger finger and bolt catch being on the left side of the weapon. The safety is also ambidextrous.

We will see how soon CZ will catch up with an official announcement, but it is already clear that this version of CZ 807 will join the ranks of modern battle rifles such as SCAR-H, HK-417, Beretta ARX-200, SIG 716 and many AR-10 variants available on the market. With such a diversity of variants, it looks like the golden age of .308 only begins now.



Ahmet Pasha said:


> Wabout Beretta ARX series???



Beretta ARX CZ 807 Bren and Fn SCAR both seems have similar performance .. expert only can tell which one will best suited for Pakistan . as India have already chosen their replacement Pakistan need to start their replacement soon .


----------



## Thunder.Storm

monitor said:


> *Breaking news: CZ unveils new BREN 2 battle rifle in 7.62×51 (.308 Win)*
> 
> Posted September 12, 2018 in Breaking News, Daily News, Defense, Product Announcement, Rifles by Vladimir Onokoy with 77 Comments
> Tags: Beretta ARX-200, CZ 807, HK 417, SCAR-H, sig 716
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Today, Polish military magazine MILMAG (https://www.milmag.pl/) released pictures of the new CZ Bren 2 variant chambered in .308 Win.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Source: https://www.facebook.com/TheMilMag2/
> 
> Follow the The Firearm Blog Daily News Channel
> 
> Looking at the pictures, we can see at least one interesting improvement- new M-Lock handguard.
> 
> In 2016, in Pakistan, when I was first introduced to CZ 807 series, my first question was – why do you still have a quad rail when you can have Key-Mode or M-Lock?
> 
> CZ 807 assault rifle is very light to begin with, but a modular handguard is a sure way to make it even lighter and improve the balance. The leader of a CZ trial team answered “the time for that will come’. I am glad the time finally came.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _CZ 807 with a quadrail_
> 
> 
> 
> _Author with a CZ 807 chambered in 7.62×39 in Pakistan_
> 
> Currently, there is no official information available about this new Bren 2 variant, but since the cat is out of the bag, I guess I can share what I know.
> 
> In 2016, Pakistan army held trials for its service weapon replacement. You can read more about it here. One of the contenders was CZ, it entered the trials with two different weapons, CZ 807 and… CZ 807.
> 
> Those two weapons, despite having exactly the same name, were chambered in two different calibers, 7.62×39 and 7.62×51. The first one entered the trials right away, the second one was introduced later. Shortly after the 7.62×51 variant was demonstrated for the first time, I managed to take some pictures and for over two years never showed them to anyone.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As far as the performance of CZ 807 during the trials – I don’t think it is ethical to share such information publically without the approval of the manufacturer. I can tell two things for sure – with match .308 ammunition, CZ 807 was very accurate, demonstrating solid groups at 100 meters distance. Second – in 2016, the .308 version was on a very early stage of development and rifle probably improved a lot in the last two years.
> 
> As far as specs: magazine capacity of the 2016 version was 20 rounds, but according to a TFB reader Kovacs Jeno “magazine is 25 rounder, according to CZ demonstrators in Bzenec” (thanks!).
> 
> Rifle has a signature CZ adjustable folding stock, the ergonomics resemble that of an AR15 with an ambidextrous magazine release located under the tip of a trigger finger and bolt catch being on the left side of the weapon. The safety is also ambidextrous.
> 
> We will see how soon CZ will catch up with an official announcement, but it is already clear that this version of CZ 807 will join the ranks of modern battle rifles such as SCAR-H, HK-417, Beretta ARX-200, SIG 716 and many AR-10 variants available on the market. With such a diversity of variants, it looks like the golden age of .308 only begins now.
> 
> 
> 
> Beretta ARX CZ 807 Bren and Fn SCAR both seems have similar performance .. expert only can tell which one will best suited for Pakistan . as India have already chosen their replacement Pakistan need to start their replacement soon .


You are late to the party [emoji322] bro.


----------



## Ahmet Pasha

In my view Radom MSBS, Bren2 platform and ARX family are realistic contenders.


monitor said:


> *Breaking news: CZ unveils new BREN 2 battle rifle in 7.62×51 (.308 Win)*
> 
> Posted September 12, 2018 in Breaking News, Daily News, Defense, Product Announcement, Rifles by Vladimir Onokoy with 77 Comments
> Tags: Beretta ARX-200, CZ 807, HK 417, SCAR-H, sig 716
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Today, Polish military magazine MILMAG (https://www.milmag.pl/) released pictures of the new CZ Bren 2 variant chambered in .308 Win.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Source: https://www.facebook.com/TheMilMag2/
> 
> Follow the The Firearm Blog Daily News Channel
> 
> Looking at the pictures, we can see at least one interesting improvement- new M-Lock handguard.
> 
> In 2016, in Pakistan, when I was first introduced to CZ 807 series, my first question was – why do you still have a quad rail when you can have Key-Mode or M-Lock?
> 
> CZ 807 assault rifle is very light to begin with, but a modular handguard is a sure way to make it even lighter and improve the balance. The leader of a CZ trial team answered “the time for that will come’. I am glad the time finally came.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _CZ 807 with a quadrail_
> 
> 
> 
> _Author with a CZ 807 chambered in 7.62×39 in Pakistan_
> 
> Currently, there is no official information available about this new Bren 2 variant, but since the cat is out of the bag, I guess I can share what I know.
> 
> In 2016, Pakistan army held trials for its service weapon replacement. You can read more about it here. One of the contenders was CZ, it entered the trials with two different weapons, CZ 807 and… CZ 807.
> 
> Those two weapons, despite having exactly the same name, were chambered in two different calibers, 7.62×39 and 7.62×51. The first one entered the trials right away, the second one was introduced later. Shortly after the 7.62×51 variant was demonstrated for the first time, I managed to take some pictures and for over two years never showed them to anyone.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As far as the performance of CZ 807 during the trials – I don’t think it is ethical to share such information publically without the approval of the manufacturer. I can tell two things for sure – with match .308 ammunition, CZ 807 was very accurate, demonstrating solid groups at 100 meters distance. Second – in 2016, the .308 version was on a very early stage of development and rifle probably improved a lot in the last two years.
> 
> As far as specs: magazine capacity of the 2016 version was 20 rounds, but according to a TFB reader Kovacs Jeno “magazine is 25 rounder, according to CZ demonstrators in Bzenec” (thanks!).
> 
> Rifle has a signature CZ adjustable folding stock, the ergonomics resemble that of an AR15 with an ambidextrous magazine release located under the tip of a trigger finger and bolt catch being on the left side of the weapon. The safety is also ambidextrous.
> 
> We will see how soon CZ will catch up with an official announcement, but it is already clear that this version of CZ 807 will join the ranks of modern battle rifles such as SCAR-H, HK-417, Beretta ARX-200, SIG 716 and many AR-10 variants available on the market. With such a diversity of variants, it looks like the golden age of .308 only begins now.
> 
> 
> 
> Beretta ARX CZ 807 Bren and Fn SCAR both seems have similar performance .. expert only can tell which one will best suited for Pakistan . as India have already chosen their replacement Pakistan need to start their replacement soon .

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## monitor

Thunder.Storm said:


> You are late to the party [emoji322] bro.



Party is going for 3.5 years so better late then never .



Ahmet Pasha said:


> In my view Radom MSBS, Bren2 platform and ARX family are realistic contenders.



Who will share more technology with POF and cost effective multi caliber option might win the tender .

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## Ahmet Pasha

Wat u said
And also
I think the one to share most tech and their full family would win right now that is only CZ with BREN series and scorpio smg.

Whereas Radom MSBS also has a lot of potential as it offers a conventional rifle and also a bullpup design with similar parts and tech.






monitor said:


> Party is going for 3.5 years so better late then never .
> 
> 
> 
> Who will share more technology with POF and cost effective multi caliber option might win the tender .


----------



## Naveed66

Ahmet Pasha said:


> In my view Radom MSBS, Bren2 platform and ARX family are realistic contenders.


I was saying the same since IDEAS. But everytime someone got annoyed by my words


----------



## Arsalan

Ahmet Pasha said:


> In my view Radom MSBS, Bren2 platform and ARX family are realistic contenders.


MSBS was not part of the trials as per my info but agree with what you said about Bren, may be even ARX

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## jupiter2007

First option is to go for FN SCAR-H, it will be great if we can the tech to build these in Pakistan.
Second option should be Beretta ARX160 A3


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## Zarvan

@Horus India has ordered SIG 716 and CAR 816 for it's Army and has started production of AK-203. Where the hell are our Rifles or should we say good bye to new Rifle. 

@Horus @balixd @Arsalan @Path-Finder


----------



## Path-Finder

Naveed66 said:


> I was saying the same since IDEAS. But everytime someone got annoyed by my words


who got annoyed?



Zarvan said:


> @Horus India has ordered SIG 716 and CAR 816 for it's Army and has started production of AK-203. Where the hell are our Rifles or should we say good bye to new Rifle.
> 
> @Horus @balixd @Arsalan @Path-Finder



Beretta ARX 200 Firing in Pakistan by the guy from Kalashnikov concern. The cooler in the corner is as Pakistani as it gets 





AK103 tako ji

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## TheDarkKnight

@Zarvan 
So when is SCAR comming with TOT?


----------



## Ahmet Pasha

Kyun dugdugi bja ra hai bhai.
He will start going berzerk on this thread again.


TheDarkKnight said:


> @Zarvan
> So when is SCAR comming with TOT?


----------



## monitor

FN SCAR-H








CZ Bren 807


----------



## Ahmet Pasha

Do Fn and berretta make SMGs too???


----------



## pzfz

Zarvan said:


> @Horus India has ordered SIG 716 and CAR 816 for it's Army and has started production of AK-203. Where the hell are our Rifles or should we say good bye to new Rifle.
> 
> @Horus @balixd @Arsalan @Path-Finder



they were never coming. nor should they come.


----------



## Zarvan

pzfz said:


> they were never coming. nor should they come.


We didn't tested Rifles for 4 years because they are not coming I know two rifles passed trials and which one I know that too I know talks are on but How long will they take to finalize the deals that is the question


----------



## pzfz

Zarvan said:


> We didn't tested Rifles for 4 years because they are not coming I know two rifles passed trials and which one I know that too I know talks are on but How long will they take to finalize the deals that is the question



you don't know anything. be honest with yourself. facts: no money, no need, so nothing.


----------



## Zhukov

We should go for our own Design. Hell give Daudsons and other Private sector Weapons Manufacturers a tender for Assault Rifle Design. Give local Industry a Chance. Instead of Paying heavy License fees and Giving sole Manufacturing to POF

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## Amaa'n

Path-Finder said:


> who got annoyed?
> 
> 
> 
> Beretta ARX 200 Firing in Pakistan by the guy from Kalashnikov concern. The cooler in the corner is as Pakistani as it gets
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AK103 tako ji


all of these rifles have that toyish look man idk why....you don't get that feeling that you get when look or hold a rifle.....it is like racking back the pump action shotgun which has deterrence to it and semi auto shotgun lacks

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## Army research

balixd said:


> all of these rifles have that toyish look man idk why....you don't get that feeling that you get when look or hold a rifle.....it is like racking back the pump action shotgun which has deterrence to it and semi auto shotgun lacks


Nothing beats good old ' three knut three '


----------



## Zarvan

pzfz said:


> you don't know anything. be honest with yourself. facts: no money, no need, so nothing.


Things I know I told you and I know things. Things I don't I try to get information about


----------



## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Things I know I told you and I know things. Things I don't I try to get information about


Derwaish Muffakir Hazrat @Zarvan 4 years and nothing so far. IF SCAR does not come which everyone now agree ain't happening. What will you do if it never enters Pakistani service??


----------



## Mr.Cringeworth

@Zarvan hopefully this won't break your heart.

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## TheDarkKnight

Zarvan said:


> We didn't tested Rifles for 4 years because they are not coming I know two rifles passed trials and which one I know that too I know talks are on but How long will they take to finalize the deals that is the question


Hello Sir:
I remember you said that instruction manuals of SCAR were being given to soldiers- so I guess we should have some rifles now as well? Or our soldires are still studying the instruction manuals?

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## Legio XI The Ironclads

TheDarkKnight said:


> Hello Sir:
> I remember you said that instruction manuals of SCAR were being given to soldiers- so I guess we should have some rifles now as well? Or our soldires are still studying the instruction manuals?



They had to do a written test on the SCAR before they get to fire one. But unfortunately, it being Pakistan, a number of soldiers got caught doing nakal in the test, so FN has decided to demote Pakistani Army for one year as punishment. So in 2020 you will see SCAR in Pakistan army. I know this because my Uncles, Father in law lives next door to a guy who knows someone who's friends with someone who use to live near the FN factory.

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## Ahmet Pasha

I remember joining bcz of Zarvan vs Pathfinder debate.

Did u join cuz of this thread???


Legio XI The Ironclads said:


> They had to do a written test on the SCAR before they get to fire one. But unfortunately, it being Pakistan, a number of soldiers got caught doing nakal in the test, so FN has decided to demote Pakistani Army for one year as punishment. So in 2020 you will see SCAR in Pakistan army. I know this because my Uncles, Father in law lives next door to a guy who knows someone who's friends with someone who use to live near the FN factory.

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## Pakhtoon yum

Legio XI The Ironclads said:


> They had to do a written test on the SCAR before they get to fire one. But unfortunately, it being Pakistan, a number of soldiers got caught doing nakal in the test, so FN has decided to demote Pakistani Army for one year as punishment. So in 2020 you will see SCAR in Pakistan army. I know this because my Uncles, Father in law lives next door to a guy who knows someone who's friends with someone who use to live near the FN factory.


That doesn't sound right lmao
A company doesnt decide when and how to give out equipment. U flinch and the competition eats u alive.


----------



## Super Falcon

Still un clear which gun we are buying pak army needs emergency based replacement with more advanced guns HK 416 should be the weapon of choice scar cannot be used as standard issue even USA uses it as specialized Teams


----------



## CrazyZ

Both the G3 and Type 56 (AK) are still good enough to be effective on the battlefield. They lack the modularity and ergonomics of modern weapons. I would go with the CZ-Bren and/or AK100 series to replace them. The CZ-Bren is a copy of the FN-SCAR which is considered the best rifle currently.



Super Falcon said:


> Still un clear which gun we are buying pak army needs emergency based replacement with more advanced guns HK 416 should be the weapon of choice scar cannot be used as standard issue even USA uses it as specialized Teams



Germany no longer sells small arms to middle east countries.


----------



## Ghost 125

The rifle procurement program is shelved for now, period
Army's priority at the moment are different, that includes tanks, wheeled SP guns, gunships and SAMs


----------



## Super Falcon

CrazyZ said:


> Both the G3 and Type 56 (AK) are still good enough to be effective on the battlefield. They lack the modularity and ergonomics of modern weapons. I would go with the CZ-Bren and/or AK100 series to replace them. The CZ-Bren is a copy of the FN-SCAR which is considered the best rifle currently.
> 
> 
> 
> Germany no longer sells small arms to middle east countries.


We r not in ME sir


----------



## CrazyZ

Super Falcon said:


> We r not in ME sir



Muslim and in warzone. Close enough.


----------



## Super Falcon

CrazyZ said:


> Muslim and in warzone. Close enough.


Agreed but what our brothers care about islam or nation


----------



## Legio XI The Ironclads

Ahmet Pasha said:


> I remember joining bcz of Zarvan vs Pathfinder debate.
> 
> Did u join cuz of this thread???




Nah I didn't join because of this thread, it'd just disheartening when a thread runs for 414 pages and says nothing.



Pakhtoon yum said:


> That doesn't sound right lmao
> A company doesnt decide when and how to give out equipment. U flinch and the competition eats u alive.



Pakhtoon its was just a joke, just highlighting that manuals were allegedly supplied to Pak Army to study. I just satirized when Pakistani kids have to study, some rely on Nakal.

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## Pakhtoon yum

Legio XI The Ironclads said:


> Nah I didn't join because of this thread, it'd just disheartening when a thread runs for 414 pages and says nothing.
> 
> 
> 
> Pakhtoon its was just a joke, just highlighting that manuals were allegedly supplied to Pak Army to study. I just satirized when Pakistani kids have to study, some rely on Nakal.


Oh, I see. My bad


----------



## Vapnope

Any news about the rifle induction?

@Zarvan @PAR 5 @Irfan Baloch @Path-Finder


----------



## Sine Nomine

Vapnope said:


> Any news about the rifle induction?
> 
> @Zarvan @PAR 5 @Irfan Baloch @Path-Finder


It's dead with no capable Gunslinger at helms of affair it's a mess.


----------



## PAR 5

Vapnope said:


> Any news about the rifle induction?
> 
> @Zarvan @PAR 5 @Irfan Baloch @Path-Finder



Nope! No Money, no interest, no one awake, vendors pissed on waste of thousands of dollars

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## dr_jawwad71

Oh come on!
Are we still talking about that.... that replacement joke was over long ago.

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## SSGcommandoPAK



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## TheDarkKnight

Vapnope said:


> Any news about the rifle induction?
> 
> @Zarvan @PAR 5 @Irfan Baloch @Path-Finder


Yes we are negotiating but IMF is causing issues.


----------



## Ghost 125

Zarvan said:


> Just got an update but waiting for a guy that if I can share it or not


lol this single reply of yours will take this thread from 415 pages to 615 this year.

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## xbat

i wouldnt be surprised if you guys choose a Turkish rifle.


----------



## Shane

Zarvan said:


> Just got an update but waiting for a guy that if I can share it or not


Spoken as wisely as a guy with 48278 posts .

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## Imran Khan

Zarvan said:


> Just got an update but waiting for a guy that if I can share it or not


ab aik nya katta na khol dena hazrat

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Just got an update but waiting for a guy that if I can share it or not


That means FN SCAR has won?

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## TheDarkKnight

Path-Finder said:


> That means FN SCAR has won?


It won a long time ago ...


----------



## The Eagle

G3S (on the left) shall emerge as winner. Well upgraded and doesn't seem any less capable as compare to contenders. It will solve both issues of new upgraded rifle under current economic situation with total independence of manufacturing, already existing capacity at POF.


----------



## bananarepublic

The Eagle said:


> G3S (on the left) shall emerge as winner. Well upgraded and doesn't seem any less capable as compare to contenders. It will solve both issues of new upgraded rifle under current economic situation with total independence of manufacturing, already existing capacity at POF.



You would be better off buying mpt-76 
Its has all the good things about G-3 but also is modular in design and light weight


----------



## Path-Finder

xbat said:


> i wouldnt be surprised if you guys choose a Turkish rifle.



I think it's logical to go for mpt76! Cant keep modding G3 anymore.


----------



## Sine Nomine

The Eagle said:


> G3S (on the left) shall emerge as winner. Well upgraded and doesn't seem any less capable as compare to contenders. It will solve both issues of new upgraded rifle under current economic situation with total independence of manufacturing, already existing capacity at POF.


With due respect Mr Eagle,POF G3 has cold climate problem,S version brings nothing new on table except Pictinny rail.We need a platform much like XM-8,one gun for many jobs.


----------



## Army research

The Eagle said:


> G3S (on the left) shall emerge as winner. Well upgraded and doesn't seem any less capable as compare to contenders. It will solve both issues of new upgraded rifle under current economic situation with total independence of manufacturing, already existing capacity at POF.


Sir that is not a G3S , the S is only a carbine variant of the G3M, The M variant is lighter , has a new muzzle brake and stock , as well as the rails


----------



## Path-Finder

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1123952928870608897
Hazrat @Zarvan change of heart? 3-4 years of (FN SCAR) Derwaishy and Maffakrky down the drain!!!

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## TsAr

Path-Finder said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1123952928870608897
> Hazrat @Zarvan change of heart? 3-4 years of (FN SCAR) Derwaishy and Maffakrky down the drain!!!


You do understand that you are committing blasphemy......

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## Path-Finder

TsAr said:


> You do understand that you are committing blasphemy......


hmmn, but if its approved by our Hazrat then I don't think it is!

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## Ahmet Pasha

If G3 can get weight reduction and polymer mags then it might just work gor another 5 years.


----------



## Army research

TsAr said:


> You do understand that you are committing blasphemy......





Ahmet Pasha said:


> If G3 can get weight reduction and polymer mags then it might just work gor another 5 years.


Already done in G3M ( new muzzle brake and tactical rails and new stock) And it's carbine version of G3S

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## Talwar e Pakistan

xbat said:


> i wouldnt be surprised if you guys choose a Turkish rifle.


I think we had a joint project a while ago to replace the G3


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

IMO ... it seems to those units that need it, they'll just get off-the-shelf/imported M4s @PAR 5


----------



## PAR 5

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IMO ... it seems to those units that need it, they'll just get off-the-shelf/imported M4s @PAR 5



Unfortunately bad decisions are made by ill informed personnel. This is exactly the same case. With the present situation, GHQ will continue using the Chinese Type 56-II and the G-3. Specialized units will buy directly from US OEM's limited quantities of M4's. Army at this time has no funds and hence this project, like many others in the past stands shelved for now

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## khanasifm

The country has no funds to pay short term debt due in next year to two years forget about army


----------



## Path-Finder

FN SCAR tako Hazrat 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1138480751639453696


----------



## JohnWick

Path-Finder said:


> FN SCAR tako Hazrat
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1138480751639453696


They should take a TOT of MSBS Radon
Of both conventional and bullpup 
There bullpup is better than IWI Tavor of Isreal which currently a standard rifle of Indian special forces.


----------



## Metal 0-1

Pakistan is going for 807 bren 2. Which is a totally bad choice. Its range is like 350 meters Type 56 can perform better.
There is battle rifle version CZ Been 2 BR(Battle Rifle). Which is chambered in 7.62×51.





We should go for it. Or any other rifle which has more power and atlest range up to 500 meters.
After Transfer of Technology we can develop carbine versions or Assault rifles chambered in shorter ammo later on.
Replacing G3 after making different variants. Like carbine and DMR.

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## JohnWick

Metal 0-1 said:


> Pakistan is going for 807 bren 2. Which is a totally bad choice. Its range is like 350 meters Type 56 can perform better.
> There is battle rifle version CZ Been 2 BR(Battle Rifle). Which is chambered in 7.62×51.
> View attachment 566173
> 
> 
> We should go for it. Or any other rifle which has more power and atlest range up to 500 meters.
> After Transfer of Technology we can develop carbine versions or Assault rifles chambered in shorter ammo later on.
> Replacing G3 after making different variants. Like carbine and DMR.


Source please .....

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## Path-Finder

Metal 0-1 said:


> Pakistan is going for 807 bren 2. Which is a totally bad choice. Its range is like 350 meters Type 56 can perform better.
> There is battle rifle version CZ Been 2 BR(Battle Rifle). Which is chambered in 7.62×51.
> View attachment 566173
> 
> 
> We should go for it. Or any other rifle which has more power and atlest range up to 500 meters.
> After Transfer of Technology we can develop carbine versions or Assault rifles chambered in shorter ammo later on.
> Replacing G3 after making different variants. Like carbine and DMR.



Hazrat @Zarvan


----------



## bananarepublic

speculation or confirmed?


----------



## JohnWick

I also voted for the same rifle....


----------



## Metal 0-1

JohnWick said:


> Source please .....


You can search on the internet 807 will show up as well as 806 meant for Pakistan.

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## JohnWick

Metal 0-1 said:


> You can search on the internet 807 will show up as well as 806 meant for Pakistan.
> 
> 
> Calling out the big guy✌


There is also same speculation obout MSBS Radon on the internet....

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## Zarvan

Metal 0-1 said:


> Pakistan is going for 807 bren 2. Which is a totally bad choice. Its range is like 350 meters Type 56 can perform better.
> There is battle rifle version CZ Been 2 BR(Battle Rifle). Which is chambered in 7.62×51.
> View attachment 566173
> 
> 
> We should go for it. Or any other rifle which has more power and atlest range up to 500 meters.
> After Transfer of Technology we can develop carbine versions or Assault rifles chambered in shorter ammo later on.
> Replacing G3 after making different variants. Like carbine and DMR.


No we are not. This Gun is out of race.



Metal 0-1 said:


> You can search on the internet 807 will show up as well as 806 meant for Pakistan.


So that is your source seriously ?????????


----------



## Metal 0-1

Zarvan said:


> No we are not. This Gun is out of race.
> 
> 
> So that is your source seriously ?????????


Don't blame me.



Metal 0-1 said:


> Don't blame me.


https://nation.com.pk/12-Dec-2016/czech-cz-807-one-of-three-finalists


----------



## Zarvan

Metal 0-1 said:


> Don't blame me.
> 
> 
> https://nation.com.pk/12-Dec-2016/czech-cz-807-one-of-three-finalists


You are sharing 3 year old news. And even reporter took the entire news from this website. No this Rifle is not in the race.


----------



## kenyannoobie

Path-Finder said:


>




Don't believe everything on the 'net! Our paras and specops use this and have no complaints and having used M4s,G3s and FNs. If its heavy that SEAL Snowflake can take off the scope!

I know not an LMG and shouldn't be used as one but what other 7.62 NATO is as controllable full auto?


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## Metal 0-1

Zarvan said:


> You are sharing 3 year old news. And even reporter took the entire news from this website. No this Rifle is not in the race.


What do you suggest..???
In terms of new rifle procurement..


----------



## kenyannoobie

RescueRanger said:


> Good luck wearing all that kit in Pakistan's weather. Hyperventilation anyone?



Tacticool is KING!



TF141 said:


> Get the CZ 807 on ToT, G3 is already largely replaced by T56, CZs will replace T56 entirely, can retain G3 in DMR config for section level. M4s to equip the LCBs entirely,* and SCAR-H is inducted for supplementing SSG/SSW/SSGN inventory, too expensive for army to adopt.*



Sir,you're sensible! Due to its 3000$ a pop price,here in Kenya only the Airborne and specops have it. Since you're going for licence building of the winning rifle you may manufacture for the whole PA;its a truly wonderful rifle,versatile,light,powerful and reliable it,but I can't guess your Generals and Treasury intention.

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## Metal 0-1

Let's stick with G-3 for a while as our main battle rifle. We should pip G3s with EO Tech ACOGs. Foregrips for modern look and use. We should buy newer versions of M4 for SSG and ofcourse LCBs.


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## Zarvan

Metal 0-1 said:


> Let's stick with G-3 for a while as our main battle rifle. We should pip G3s with EO Tech ACOGs. Foregrips for modern look and use. We should buy newer versions of M4 for SSG and ofcourse LCBs.


G3 is way to big with massive issues of jamming and being really heavy and large in size. It has to go.


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## Sine Nomine

Zarvan said:


> G3 is way to big with massive issues of jamming and being really heavy and large in size. It has to go.


G3 and jamming


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## B.K.N

Zarvan said:


> G3 is way to big with massive issues of jamming and being really heavy and large in size. It has to go.



Did any soldier personally complained to you about this rifle


----------



## JohnWick

Zarvan said:


> G3 is way to big with massive issues of jamming and being really heavy and large in size. It has to go.


"It is not engineering when it is not German".
It's an old saying.
And you are saying G3 rifle has issues of jamming.....


----------



## Zarvan

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> G3 and jamming





JohnWick said:


> "It is not engineering when it is not German".
> It's an old saying.
> And you are saying G3 rifle has issues of jamming.....


Yes it has and it was one of the major reason why we shifted to Type 56. Along with being compact one major benefit Type 56 had over G3 was less jamming.


----------



## JohnWick

Zarvan said:


> Yes it has and it was one of the major reason why we shifted to Type 56. Along with being compact one major benefit Type 56 had over G3 was less jamming.


I don't think G3 has a jamming problem....
Its real problems are heavy weight and hard recoil.....


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## Sine Nomine

Zarvan said:


> Yes it has and it was one of the major reason why we shifted to Type 56. Along with being compact one major benefit Type 56 had over G3 was less jamming.


Hazrat khuda ka wasta hai ab chuley marna choor dou,Type 56 is for CQB while G3 is battle rifle,G3 never fits into COIN ops, apart from DMR or static post deployments roles it's pretty useless in urban combat.


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## JohnWick

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> Hazrat khuda ka wasta hai ab chuley marna choor dou,Type 56 is for CQB while G3 is battle rifle,G3 never fits into COIN ops, apart from DMR or static post deployments roles it's pretty useless in urban combat.


Sir,
Its biggest benefit is 7.62*51 calliber bullet....
One Shot One Kill....


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## Sine Nomine

JohnWick said:


> Sir,
> Its biggest benefit is 7.62*51 calliber bullet....
> One Shot One Kill....


7.62x39 doesn't spares either,but G3 as a matter of fact is bulkey+long not suitable for Urban engagements.


----------



## Metal 0-1

Zarvan said:


> G3 is way to big with massive issues of jamming and being really heavy and large in size. It has to go.





Zarvan said:


> G3 is way to big with massive issues of jamming and being really heavy and large in size. It has to go.


I am talking about carbine versions of G3. I dont think so it has jamming issues.


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## B.K.N

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> 7.62x39 doesn't spares either,but G3 as a matter of fact is bulkey+long not suitable for Urban engagements.



Low ammo capacity compared to Kalashnikov more recoil difficult to fire at auto


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## Sine Nomine

Brass Knuckles said:


> Low ammo capacity compared to Kalashnikov more recoil difficult to fire at auto


That's not a problem.In real world hardly anyone fires in burst mode.


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## BRAVO_

after 418 pages during last 4 years ... what is the conclusion of this thread???? does any rifle decided ????

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## Armchair

Really, in all this time, Pak should have designed its own service rifle by now. But no, the powers that be will import something from Europe instead.

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## Irfan Baloch

Armchair said:


> Really, in all this time, Pak should have designed its own service rifle by now. But no, the powers that be will import something from Europe instead.


there are limitations to build everything in house. Pakistan has few rifles of its own if you check out POF products. main battle rifle for the military is a big undertaking and its better to get the plant for an established brand tried test and proven over decades
#

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## ZAC1

BRAVO_ said:


> after 418 pages during last 4 years ... what is the conclusion of this thread???? does any rifle decided ????


Same question here

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## Arsalan

BRAVO_ said:


> after 418 pages during last 4 years ... what is the conclusion of this thread????





ZAC1 said:


> Same question here



SCAR *WAS* the best rifle in the trials!




right @Path-Finder @pzfz @Ahmet Pasha @Xlvee01 ???

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## Keysersoze

Arsalan said:


> SCAR *WAS* the best rifle in the trials!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> right @Path-Finder @pzfz @Ahmet Pasha @Xlvee01 ???


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## Armchair

Irfan Baloch said:


> there are limitations to build everything in house. Pakistan has few rifles of its own if you check out POF products. main battle rifle for the military is a big undertaking and its better to get the plant for an established brand tried test and proven over decades
> #



Yet, so many countries, from Israel to Poland to Romania to... have no problems developing their own service rifle. It seems a mental block more than anything else, and no - these rifles are not tested over decades... most of the rifles in contention were tested for a few years at best.

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## bananarepublic

Armchair said:


> Yet, so many countries, from Israel to Poland to Romania to... have no problems developing their own service rifle. It seems a mental block more than anything else, and no - these rifles are not tested over decades... most of the rifles in contention were tested for a few years at best.



army men will always try to find excuses for their inability.
besides that it isn't the work of any form of army run institution to design a rifle .

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## denel

bananarepublic said:


> army men will always try to find excuses for their inability.
> besides that it isn't the work of any form of army run institution to design a rifle .


correct; this is the work of external institutions. there is really no reason why a local rifle could not be made. similarly local derivative for side arm as well.

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## Pakhtoon yum

denel said:


> correct; this is the work of external institutions. there is really no reason why a local rifle could not be made. similarly local derivative for side arm as well.


Repeat after me
Incompetence....everywhere

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## denel

Pakhtoon yum said:


> Repeat after me
> Incompetence....everywhere


yes very true. in all this time if you cannot even design your own rifle then same on everyone.

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## Path-Finder

denel said:


> yes very true. in all this time if you cannot even design your own rifle then same on everyone.



an attempt was made over 10 years ago in using the G3 design and using HK machines to come up with a domestic design and that led nowhere because the war started and that work was shelved. after the war that old project wasn't revived because it was panz. So instead they have decided to look abroad.

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## Pakhtoon yum

denel said:


> yes very true. in all this time if you cannot even design your own rifle then same on everyone.


Most of us are ashamed when we look at our potential and then what's being utilized. It hurts your head to think about.



Path-Finder said:


> an attempt was made over 10 years ago in using the G3 design and using HK machines to come up with a domestic design and that led nowhere because the war started and that work was shelved. after the war that old project wasn't revived because it was panz. So instead they have decided to look abroad.


You would think the war would act like a catalyst for the project but, then again. Our leaders are questionable, at most.

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## Path-Finder

Pakhtoon yum said:


> You would think the war would act like a catalyst for the project but, then again. Our leaders are questionable, at most.


when you have a crook who was planted by his overseers to plunder the nation. The times were hard and money was ending up in the fake accounts. despite that still here and not become syria.

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## GriffinsRule

Whats stopping private companies to invest in R&D and start manufacturing guns, eventually to be sold to PA?


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## Pakhtoon yum

Path-Finder said:


> when you have a crook who was planted by his overseers to plunder the nation. The times were hard and money was ending up in the fake accounts. despite that still here and not become syria.


Which era would you be referring to? 2001 or post 2005?


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## Path-Finder

Pakhtoon yum said:


> Which era would you be referring to? 2001 or post 2005?


zardari era.

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## Sabretooth

Uneducated gunsmiths of Darra Adam Khel and small industrial estate Peshawar can copy any firearm with their hands tied behind their backs so coming up with own original rifle is not rocket science. Talent and skills are there. The will is lacking. 



denel said:


> similarly local derivative for sidearm as well.



There are options available. This time credit goes to the private sector. 

*DSA Trushot - 9mm*






*DSA 9 - 9mm (Internal hammer like Glock)*





Why the boys at Pak Ordinance Factory are sitting idle and has no interest in a little creativity and R&D, is beyond me.

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## denel

Sabretooth said:


> Uneducated gunsmiths of Darra Adam Khel and small industrial estate Peshawar can copy any firearm with their hands tied behind their backs so coming up with own original rifle is not rocket science. Talent and skills are there. The will is lacking.
> 
> 
> 
> There are options available. This time credit goes to the private sector.
> 
> *DSA Trushot - 9mm*
> View attachment 567102
> 
> 
> *DSA 9 - 9mm (Internal hammer like Glock)*
> View attachment 567103
> 
> 
> Why the boys at Pak Ordinance Factory are sitting idle and has no interest in a little creativity and R&D, is beyond me.


Correct it makes no sense frankly; easy salary and no incentive to innovate and stagnate is bound to set in.




This is our side arm and exported out as well. based loosely on the Beretta 92; it is still far better and adopts more changes which were necessary for us.



GriffinsRule said:


> Whats stopping private companies to invest in R&D and start manufacturing guns, eventually to be sold to PA?


Probably the mafia of armed forces who dont want to encourage innovation. The problem i see is entire industry is being put under the umbrella of DF; it needs to be a standalone entity with no connection or even having personnel from there.

For example - just a simple casing point - is it that difficult to put basic aircraft which can be sold all over the place? no. Just have a look at sling and how innovators made it a name here locally out of nothing. or from my university at Potchefstroom for their world renouned gliders.
https://airplanefactory.co.za/distribution/?

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## Pakhtoon yum

Path-Finder said:


> zardari era.


Yup, I figured


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## Sine Nomine

Irfan Baloch said:


> there are limitations to build everything in house. Pakistan has few rifles of its own if you check out POF products. main battle rifle for the military is a big undertaking and its better to get the plant for an established brand tried test and proven over decades
> #


We are talking about rifle,which one of the largest Military+LEA machinery in world is going to use,not less them 2 millions.


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## JohnWick

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> We are talking about rifle,which one of the largest Military+LEA machinery in world is going to use,not less them 2 millions.


In 60 years Pakistan should have made a scar like weapon....

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## Sine Nomine

JohnWick said:


> In 60 years Pakistan should have made a scar like weapon....


SCAR isn't something special.

XM-8


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## JohnWick

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> SCAR isn't something special.
> 
> XM-8








Naah.... SCAR suits Pak Army....


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## Awan68

Armchair said:


> Yet, so many countries, from Israel to Poland to Romania to... have no problems developing their own service rifle. It seems a mental block more than anything else, and no - these rifles are not tested over decades... most of the rifles in contention were tested for a few years at best.


Perks of semi socialism, we tend to discourage private industries in Pakistan n this reflects in the defence domain.

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## Sine Nomine

JohnWick said:


> View attachment 567143
> 
> Naah.... SCAR suits Pak Army....


XM8 is better then sucker.

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## Armchair

Awan68 said:


> Perks of semi socialism, we tend to discourage private industries in Pakistan n this reflects in the defence domain.



the maddening thing is that Pak already has some decent gun smiths some of whom export their own designs abroad. But no, these british era brown sahib Macauley's children will get a gora gun.


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## Metal 0-1

In an interview POF spokesperson said they have 60 years old machines. Lack of funding and other administration problems. But they are committed to give more with less provided.


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## Path-Finder

Metal 0-1 said:


> In an interview POF spokesperson said they have 60 years old machines. Lack of funding and other administration problems. But they are committed to give more with less provided.


when zardari and nawaj have stolen billions and there nothing left for anyone else what can one do!


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## Armchair

The issue is that POF is incompetent at designing anything meaningful. Funding or no funding. This is an action for a private firm or a competition among local private firms. Put out an RFP for a local gun and see how many companies come out of the woodwork to propose their solutions....

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## denel

Armchair said:


> The issue is that POF is incompetent at designing anything meaningful. Funding or no funding. This is an action for a private firm or a competition among local private firms. Put out an RFP for a local gun and see how many companies come out of the woodwork to propose their solutions....


It is similar state of affairs like Egypt - stagnant. they will not let new ideas surface.

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## Awan68

Armchair said:


> the maddening thing is that Pak already has some decent gun smiths some of whom export their own designs abroad. But no, these british era brown sahib Macauley's children will get a gora gun.


They key to eliminating this mentality is to eradicate English from our education and embrace Urdu. We are raising people with chains on their minds.

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## denel

Awan68 said:


> They key to eliminating this mentality is to eradicate English from our education and embrace Urdu. We are raising people with chains on their minds.


yes no issues on that; if i listen to your news media or even i meet here; they have bastardised their language like the Hinglish (jrrr man, i cant take that accent and mixed up fanagalore type of language).

There needs to be complete mandatory use of proper language words. When I speak a language I will never mix another language words but those of it only. For example, when i speak farsi, i will not try to mingle english words as it looks odd yet when urdu speakers now speak it is a bastardisation. It shows a complete lack of respect for a language and it is more sounding like the moroccan arabic which is completely bastardised between french berber and their pigoen arabic.

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## Awan68

denel said:


> yes no issues on that; if i listen to your news media or even i meet here; they have bastardised their language like the Hinglish (jrrr man, i cant take that accent and mixed up fanagalore type of language).


amen to that brother, amen. Most of us dont speak that way, only the gandus do.

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## denel

Awan68 said:


> amen to that brother, amen. Most of us dont speak that way, only the gandus do.


no prblem. jrrr. i cant stand the curry muncher accent. it is like they are hyperventilating and warping between languages like a confused cow (no disrespect to a cow).
but i implore you to get your house in order; you have a beautiful language and yet people are throwing it away. I love farsi and as i immerse myself into it more and more it is becoming clear how much sway it has and how Iqbal saw urdu as being unable to hold his thoughts.



Awan68 said:


> Perks of semi socialism, we tend to discourage private industries in Pakistan n this reflects in the defence domain.


no no... dont give socialism a bad name .

We had semi socialism under aparthied and yet innovation was thriving. Same with the Soviets as well.

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## Awan68

denel said:


> no prblem. jrrr. i cant stand the curry muncher accent. it is like they are hyperventilating and warping between languages like a confused cow (no disrespect to a cow).
> but i implore you to get your house in order; you have a beautiful language and yet people are throwing it away. I love farsi and as i immerse myself into it more and more it is becoming clear how much sway it has and how Iqbal saw urdu as being unable to hold his thoughts.
> 
> 
> no no... dont give socialism a bad name .
> 
> We had semi socialism under aparthied and yet innovation was thriving. Same with the Soviets as well.


That curry muncher accent is signature of Indians, not Pakistanis..... u r misinformed it seems....We tend to speak clearly and without an accent. The thing i was referring to is the small group of people who try to westernize their urdu accent and it is a very very small minority and by the way curry is delicious, try to develop respect for food and culture alien to urself.

Regarding Urdu itself, i despise those who try to mix it with other languages but i did not invite u to attack urdu itself in favour of farsi, here too it seems u spoke out of lack of knowledge. Urdu is a mixture of Arabic, Turkish and Farsi. It is a beautiful hybrid of three beautiful languages.

Regarding socialism, we all saw where it got the soviet union(we had a huge) contribution in it), take China for example, they have a socialist govt yet the scale on which they have encouraged there private sector is unprecedented. China has mastered regulated capitalism, calling it socialism wont make it so.

No offence but south africa is not something we look up to, as wise men say "if u look beneath u, gravity will make u its bitch."

Cheers mate.


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## denel

Awan68 said:


> That curry muncher accent is signature of Indians, not Pakistanis..... u r misinformed it seems....We tend to speak clearly and without an accent. The thing i was referring to is the small group of people who try to westernize their urdu accent and it is a very very small minority and by the way curry is delicious, try to develop respect for food and culture alien to urself.
> 
> Regarding Urdu itself, i despise those who try to mix it with other languages but i did not invite u to attack urdu itself in favour of farsi, here too it seems u spoke out of lack of knowledge. Urdu is a mixture of Arabic, Turkish and Farsi. It is a beautiful hybrid of three beautiful languages.
> 
> Regarding socialism, we all saw where it got the soviet union(we had a huge) contribution in it), take China for example, they have a socialist govt yet the scale on which they have encouraged there private sector is unprecedented. China has mastered regulated capitalism, calling it socialism wont make it so.
> 
> No offence but south africa is not something we look up to, as wise men say "if u look beneath u, gravity will make u its bitch."
> 
> Cheers mate.


oh no. maybe i miscommunicated, what i meant is between the two languages farsi provides the detail depth which urdu as it is still a young language. there is a lot of similarities when i cross read some of iqbal's works. No worries, we dont follow or ask others to follow or look up to us.


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## Irfan Baloch

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> We are talking about rifle,which one of the largest Military+LEA machinery in world is going to use,not less them 2 millions.


yea
and like I said get the plant for that like we did for H&K G3. we can licence produce the original for our own forced and later on sell the originals as well NOT the clones. like we do for G3 and MP5 for example.

I will just write it one last time. the resources in terms of time, money and personnel is limited and there are many competing projects and demands of critical nature that need attention so going for an in- house development of a Pakistan own weapon from scratch that will compete both Russian and Western origin assault rifles is a very ambitious and wishful plan.

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## Sine Nomine

Irfan Baloch said:


> yea
> and like I said get the plant for that like we did for H&K G3. we can licence produce the original for our own forced and later on sell the originals as well NOT the clones. like we do for G3 and MP5 for example.
> 
> I will just write it one last time. the resources in terms of time, money and personnel is limited and there are many competing projects and demands of critical nature that need attention so going for an in- house development of a Pakistan own weapon from scratch that will compete both Russian and Western origin assault rifles is a very ambitious and wishful plan.


Designing a rifle system is something which would require least resources and would pay more then enough.Every large Arm supplier was once known as good small arms maker.
Plant isn't something we can't design and build.

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## Shane

@Zarvan bhai, pardon my ignorance of past pages, why not go for the next iteration in the same HK G-3 caliber??? The widely deployed, equally reliable and deadly HK-417A2 or G-27 of _The_ _Deutsches Heer. _

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## Super Falcon

This is becoming is like asking to go on mars last 4 years have passed and army cant even decide what is best weapon of choice fr future

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## Armchair

Awan68 said:


> They key to eliminating this mentality is to eradicate English from our education and embrace Urdu. We are raising people with chains on their minds.



I have done research on this, and written papers, and have a PhD in the field of education, and I completely agree with this. But other than language, we need more - we need to learn our values, and know our history properly. We need to re-write the books of history to reflect our viewpoint - not use UK supplied textbooks as is common in so called "English Medium" schools. We need to inculcate a culture of understanding a subject and discussing subjects, rather than memorization... there is so much to be done...

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## Shane

Shane said:


> @Zarvan bhai, pardon my ignorance of past pages, why not go for the next iteration in the same HK G-3 caliber??? The widely deployed, equally reliable and deadly HK-417A2 or G-27 of _The_ _Deutsches Heer. _


The HK 417 Assaulter Rifle.

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## zulu

@graphican check this


Armchair said:


> I have done research on this, and written papers, and have a PhD in the field of education, and I completely agree with this. But other than language, we need more - we need to learn our values, and know our history properly. We need to re-write the books of history to reflect our viewpoint - not use UK supplied textbooks as is common in so called "English Medium" schools. We need to inculcate a culture of understanding a subject and discussing subjects, rather than memorization... there is so much to be done...


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## JohnWick

Indigenous rifle should be the best because it will save hundreds of $ for TOT of another rifle....

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## Zarvan

@Horus Close the thread


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## Shane

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> Designing a rifle system is something which would require least resources and would pay more then enough.Every large Arm supplier was once known as good small arms maker.
> Plant isn't something we can't design and build.


The prime example of this argument is Caracal Arms manufacturing coming out of UAE in 2007. In just 12 years it has made a name for itself in the international arena. It now also has a manufacturing facility in USA to supply arms to that lucrative market.

India is already on board to procure Caracal carbines in numbers for its forces.

India has set its eyes on Caracal CAR816.

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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> @Horus Close the thread


What happened? Is the deal off? Whats the news?


----------



## Khafee

Arsalan said:


> What happened? Is the deal off? Whats the news?


SCAR is not coming, he is upset.

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## Arsalan

Khafee said:


> SCAR is not coming, he is upset.




No seriously, @Zarvan why close the thread man? Is there any news? The deal is off or what? Why close it?

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## Khafee

Arsalan said:


> No seriously, @Zarvan why close the thread man? Is there any news? The deal is off or what? Why close it?


He is a Govt official now, you might to address him with a bit more respect e.g. Hazrat, Sir, Sirjee, future dhulay raja,

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## Arsalan

Khafee said:


> future dhulay raja,



Heinnnnnn


When is this happening???

@Zarvan bro i though we were friends!!

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## Path-Finder

Khafee said:


> SCAR is not coming, he is upset.


I swear I and many others had said this years ago!



Zarvan said:


> @Horus Close the thread


Hzarat Muffakir Derwaish @Zarvan what happened? lost hopes for FN SCAR



Khafee said:


> He is a Govt official now, you might to address him with a bit more respect e.g. Hazrat, Sir, Sirjee, future dhulay raja,

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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> Heinnnnnn
> 
> 
> When is this happening???
> 
> @Zarvan bro i though we were friends!!


Not now hopefully soon



Path-Finder said:


> I swear I and many others had said this years ago!
> 
> 
> Hzarat Muffakir Derwaish @Zarvan what happened? lost hopes for FN SCAR


Follow me on twitter

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Not now hopefully soon
> 
> 
> Follow me on twitter


I do follow you on Twitter


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> I do follow you on Twitter


Say hi to me on twitter


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## Armchair

Zarvan said:


> Say hi to me on twitter


Hazrat Zarvan, I would also like to be one of your followers, but I don't have twitter unfortunately.

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Say hi to me on twitter


apologies Hazrat, I will remain in stealth mode like you remain in stealth mode on pdf.

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## ali_raza

Khafee said:


> SCAR is not coming, he is upset.


sir hi caracal hi dedo 
i heard its made in UAE

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## Irfan Baloch

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> Designing a rifle system is something which would require least resources and would pay more then enough.Every large Arm supplier was once known as good small arms maker.
> Plant isn't something we can't design and build.


I am sold 
Lets do it

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## Sine Nomine

Irfan Baloch said:


> I am sold
> Lets do it


----------



## Irfan Baloch

Irfan Baloch said:


> I am sold
> Lets do it


@MastanKhan I realize how you sometimes feel when post after post you get a response at square one from the youngsters making you wonder you had ranted in an obscure dialect. I am sure you feel the same whenever I pretend I understand your point although I need to put more years under by belt or grey matter to comprehend

it is soul destroying sometimes like the feeling of Pervaiz who mourns the limitations and comprehension issues of our future generations. 

I recall your explanation on the limitation of JF-17 airframe but still our single minded warriors want bigger engine, more missile racks, a plasma blaster on suit bathroom and a radar to fry the balls of Modi from our airspace (ok maybe last three demands are an exaggeration).
here despite me pointing out that any major undertaking for indigenous rifle along with its R&D , trial and full scale production after field testing and adaption requires time of unknown quantity, resources and attention of people who are spending our limited resources on other projects. but NO , I am schooled that its no big deal (I might be schooled by same people telling me that its no big deal to make moon module, build up stealth craft, autonomous robot and a microwave oven that goes to the shops to get food for you and cooks , self cleans and plays select saucy videos to cheer you up too.


rant over

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## MastanKhan

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> Designing a rifle system is something which would require least resources and would pay more then enough.Every large Arm supplier was once known as good small arms maker.
> Plant isn't something we can't design and build.



Hi,

Actually this is incorrect---. The difference in making an average to good assault rifle to an excellent tier 1 assault rifle is like flying from one star to the next star in a spaceship---.

Just check out---how many truly superior assault rifles manufacturers are out there on the planet---and you will be surprised---very few---and then to top it off with a reasonable price as well---fewer.

An older assault weapon in service is like your old friend---true and trusted---and when push comes to shove to make a decision about a newer assault rifle---the powers to be rely on the true & trusted more than show and strut---.

The G3---it has already told us time and again---what it is all about---how it would react under stress and duress---what you can expect out of it & what it will do for you---period---full stop---game ended---. @Irfan Baloch

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## Thəorətic Muslim

Yaars, 422 pages. Abhi bhi nai khatam hoa?

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## Metal 0-1

Forget everything induct Turkish MPT-76 (7.62) and MPT-55(5.56). And TOT will get the job done.

For those Pakistan should pay heed to R&D, first of all we need to clean all the mafia from military and bureaucracy..


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## Sine Nomine

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Actually this is incorrect---. The difference in making an average to good assault rifle to an excellent tier 1 assault rifle is like flying from one star to the next star in a spaceship---.
> 
> Just check out---how many truly superior assault rifles manufacturers are out there on the planet---and you will be surprised---very few---and then to top it off with a reasonable price as well---fewer.
> 
> An older assault weapon in service is like your old friend---true and trusted---and when push comes to shove to make a decision about a newer assault rifle---the powers to be rely on the true & trusted more than show and strut---.
> 
> The G3---it has already told us time and again---what it is all about---how it would react under stress and duress---what you can expect out of it & what it will do for you---period---full stop---game ended---.


Out of all kind of armament designing,rifle is least complicated and requires least resources.
Truly superior assault rifles manufacturers are very few because very few rifles are pressed into service.Not every design is pressed into service.
A rifle designed today won't go into service today,it would take years of testing resulting modifications would lead to a reliable and robust weapon system.
Why not we should stick with olf friend then?


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## MastanKhan

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> Out of all kind of armament designing,rifle is least complicated and requires least resources.
> Truly superior assault rifles manufacturers are very few because very few rifles are pressed into service.Not every design is pressed into service.
> A rifle designed today won't go into service today,it would take years of testing resulting modifications would lead to a reliable and robust weapon system.
> Why not we should stick with old friend then?



Hi,

One must ask this question---an assault rifle's design is not that complicated as you mentioned---then why a dearth of top notch weapons---.

If it works---don't fix it---.

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## Sine Nomine

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> One must ask this question---an assault rifle's design is not that complicated as you mentioned---then why a dearth of top notch weapons---.
> 
> If it works---don't fix it---.


Only 4 types of major systems
1-Short stroke gas piston.(G-36,M-416,M-4 custom models)
2-Long stroke gas piston.(Ak-47,M249,FN MAG)
3-Blow back operating system(Pistols,Sub Machine Guns,G-3,MG-42)
4-Direct impingement(M-16,MAS-40)
Then widely chamber locking system
1-Locking lugs.
2-Rollor locked.
3-Tilting breechblock.
Atleast one weapon coupled with gas system and locking system out these listed is in use and is widely liked by soldiers.Except blow back one's.
Why reinvent wheel then?
We are using a rifle chambered in 7.62x51NATO and it uses Rollor delayed blow back system.It was built in 1950's using manufacturing tech+materials of that era.It is nodoubt a great design but it has problems.
We either should change the way rifle is build and sort out all issues or we should induct a new one.

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## Mig hunter

Induction of new rifle is shelved for time being so every body to relax


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## Metal 0-1

Let me tell you Something believe it or not M-4's are also starting to get old. America has sold us old versions of M-4's. Our SOF guys are still using old school weapon handling.










This is what I am talking about. M4 with extended rail system. Used for C-Grip. Almost every operator of modern SOF prefers to shoot with C-Grip. Its not a particularly an attachment for rifle but a way to hold a rifle. Its most accurate way to shoot.



It can be seen clearly that a SF operator firing a gun using C-Grip.



A Delta Operator with C-Grip. The point is we have to modernize their equipment and operation skill as well. this is not a battle of Gun grips or attachments top ranking SF still use the old grips. But they give a freehand to operators to choose a gun according to their prefrences.



the poinnt is give variety options to our SF and Army also to choose and modify their rifles according to their needs.

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## denel

Mig hunter said:


> Induction of new rifle is shelved for time being so every body to relax


They should go back and figure out how they can improve G3 overall vs trying to get something new. Then issue upgrade kits.

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## S-A-B-E-R->

I'm not suggesting this as a future system...but look at how controlled the recoil is in this Ak version


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## ebrahym

S-A-B-E-R-> said:


> I'm not suggesting this as a future system...but look at how controlled the recoil is in this Ak version


it is because of that muzzle brake ......... you put it on a G3 and still able to shoot as flat as that........... that is also the whole charisma of SCAR.................... the Muzzle brake

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## Kompromat

One of Pakistani SOF units is likely to adopt SCAR-H.

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## Metal 0-1

Horus said:


> One of Pakistani SOF units is likely to adopt SCAR-H.


can you specify
I thought SSW is using SCAR-H and also Remington RSASS


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## Kompromat

You'll have to wait. I can't specify the unit. 



Metal 0-1 said:


> can you specify
> I thought SSW is using SCAR-H and also Remington RSASS

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## Sine Nomine

Horus said:


> One of Pakistani SOF units is likely to adopt SCAR-H.


One very unknown unit is already having them

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## Metal 0-1

Horus said:


> You'll have to wait. I can't specify the unit.


How long we have to wait. Is that too much to ask????


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## Metal 0-1

@Horus Do you have info on induction of POF-LSR in any branch????


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## Thunder.Storm



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## Quwa

umm...Oplot-P upgrade?






@Signalian @Oscar

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## Thunder.Storm

Quwa said:


> umm...Oplot-P upgrade?
> 
> View attachment 575172
> 
> 
> @Signalian @Oscar


Refurbished T80UD in #HIT Pakistan

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## Pakhtoon yum

Thunder.Storm said:


>


That looks pathetically slow.
Is this whole thing tossed in the trash, along with the tank and artillery trials?


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## khanasifm

M-4 style cocking handle at the back rather than g-3 Style on the left long rod that needs to be brought back for quick reload and loading

7.62x51 or 39 29 round mag ??? But not 5.56 for sure

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## pzfz

There's a lot going on in this pic. AR style 762 Nato and a 556 on the bottom right (both with all the tacticool mods) along with an AK smg (bulgarian style) on the bottom left with back rails. IMO a better solution than placing an order for foreign rifles for the whole army.

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## TheDarkKnight

pzfz said:


> There's a lot going on in this pic. AR style 762 Nato and a 556 on the bottom right (both with all the tacticool mods) along with an AK smg (romanian style) on the bottom left with back rails. IMO a better solution than placing an order for new rifles for the whole army.


Which rifles are these? Are these being locally produced at POF? 
@Horus @Zarvan @Signalian @Dazzler @Arsalan


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## Dazzler

TheDarkKnight said:


> Which rifles are these? Are these being locally produced at POF?
> @Horus @Zarvan @Signalian @Dazzler @Arsalan



We are making M4 carbines locally?



Thunder.Storm said:


> Refurbished T80UD in #HIT Pakistan



Upgraded and refurbished UDs.


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## Ahmet Pasha

Guys could it be MPT-76 or inspired by it???


Thunder.Storm said:


>


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## Sine Nomine

khanasifm said:


> View attachment 575252
> 
> 
> View attachment 575253
> 
> 
> M-4 style cocking handle at the back rather than g-3 Style on the left long rod that needs to be brought back for quick reload and loading
> 
> 7.62x51 or 39 29 round mag ??? But not 5.56 for sure


That's an AR-10/15 pattern rifle.


pzfz said:


> There's a lot going on in this pic. AR style 762 Nato and a 556 on the bottom right (both with all the tacticool mods) along with an AK smg (bulgarian style) on the bottom left with back rails. IMO a better solution than placing an order for foreign rifles for the whole army.


@Foxtrot Alpha take a look at them,try establishing their i.d.
Mag well of rifle in COAS hands looks like that on a G3, though typical G3/AK style mag release is missing.

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## Sharuf

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> One very unknown unit is already having them


Give a hint pls


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## Amaa'n

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> That's an AR-10/15 pattern rifle.
> 
> @Foxtrot Alpha take a look at them,try establishing their i.d.
> Mag well of rifle in COAS hands looks like that on a G3, though typical G3/AK style mag release is missing.


Its a frankestine build...magwell and the mag itself is of G3... mag release is from AR...there are take down pins to separate upper and lower...I personally believe they tried to build AR on G3 machines ....at the bottom left corner is AK103 with under folder

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## Metal 0-1

Thunder.Storm said:


>


That G-3 at 17 sec


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## Path-Finder

Hazrat @Zarvan what happened to FN SCAR?

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## Amaa'n

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat @Zarvan what happened to FN SCAR?


Scar was selected... but due to financial constraints it has been shelfed

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## YeBeWarned

Foxtrot Alpha said:


> Scar was selected... but due to financial constraints it has been shelfed



What happen to CZ Bern ?


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## Sine Nomine

Sharuf said:


> Give a hint pls






Foxtrot Alpha said:


> Scar was selected... but due to financial constraints it has been shelfed


That's one good decision.
GoP should hire a design team and let them do the work.



Foxtrot Alpha said:


> Its a frankestine build...magwell and the mag itself is of G3... mag release is from AR...there are take down pins to separate upper and lower...I personally believe they tried to build AR on G3 machines ....at the bottom left corner is AK103 with under folder


May be they are trying to build a good rifle out of both systems.


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## Ahmet Pasha

Hey if that's what they tried. Then that's awesome maybe PA pulled a Iran. Iran also builds hybrids when it doesn't have money. I'm always a fan of creative improvisation.

Don't forget the LoIs and MoUs PA signed with Czech, Italy and Poland.

Left corner doesn't look like AK103. Rather type 56(folding metal stock) with black paint job.


Foxtrot Alpha said:


> Its a frankestine build...magwell and the mag itself is of G3... mag release is from AR...there are take down pins to separate upper and lower...I personally believe they tried to build AR on G3 machines ....at the bottom left corner is AK103 with under folder

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## PAR 5

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat @Zarvan what happened to FN SCAR?



SCAR SCAR go away, come back some other DAY!


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## Mr.Cringeworth

Foxtrot Alpha said:


> Its a frankestine build...magwell and the mag itself is of G3... mag release is from AR...there are take down pins to separate upper and lower...I personally believe they tried to build AR on G3 machines ....at the bottom left corner is AK103 with under folder


I think they also tried to change the operating mechanism from direct blowback to gas impingement system in this "Frankenstein" rifle.

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## Amaa'n

Mr.Cringeworth said:


> I think they also tried to change the operating mechanism from direct blowback to gas impingement system in this "Frankenstein" rifle.


Cant say for sure... if they were improving on items, they must have learnt things from scar and cz bren....so possible that they moved to Piston driven system

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## Amaa'n

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Left corner doesn't look like AK103. Rather type 56(folding metal stock) with black paint job.


can't say for sure....one thing i see is the Rail on Dust cover - it's not a good idea because if they mount optics on this rail then everytime the dust cover is removed and put back on, it will need to be Zeroed again....only two designs that so far have proven to attain zero even after removing the dustcover are B33 - Zenitco and Texas Weapon System's Dog Tail v2 ---both of the designs are hinged based......

another thing we can improve on our current AK set up is the RDS / RMR sight instead of Comp4 Aimpoint,

remove the Picatiny quad rails and go for some something on Keymod or M-lok they are must better and lighter....

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## Zulfiqar

When POF was upgrading its 7.62 ammo plant a few years ago I was wondering why they are doing it. I guess one of the reasons was that we are sticking with 7.62 (hence this new rifle).

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## kenyannoobie

Foxtrot Alpha said:


> Scar was selected... but due to financial constraints it has been shelfed



I'm really really sorry to hear that! At the same time you guys MUST improve your tax/GDP ratio of only 15% AND ALLOW YOUR GOV GREATER REVENUES FOR PROJECTS LIKE THIS! Here in Kenya its 18%,WTF!?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_revenue_to_GDP_ratio


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## monitor

*The 7.62x51mm and 7.62x39mm cartridges might be similar in caliber size, but they are two very different rounds. To help you understand the differences, it helps to know the history and the performance of the 7.62x51 vs. 7.62x39 cartridge.*
*A History of 7.62 Cartridges*
*7.62x51mm (Aka 7.62 NATO)*




The 7.62 NATO cartridge was created to fight the rise of communism.

The 7.65×51 ammunition cartridge was developed for the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO), which was founded essentially as an anti-Soviet group to counterweight the Soviet Union’s control of the eastern Europe. NATO wanted to have a standardized rifle cartridge that could be used among all their forces.

Using the .308 Winchester cartridge as a base, the round was modified slightly. They wanted to eliminate feeding issues and to reduce overall cartridge pressure .

The 7.62×51 or 7.62 NATO (which is another common name for the caliber) was officially introduced into military service in conjunction with the M14 rifle. This rifle would go through multiple modifications throughout the years.

7.62×51 was first released in 1954, but American forces did not use the ammunition in significant fighting until the Vietnam war. In Vietnam, the military discovered the cartridge had a few disadvantages in jungle warfare.

Because of its size, troops could not carry as many rounds as the enemy, who carried the shorter 7.62x39mm. Also, the length of the M14 rifle made combat more difficult in tight jungle space.

Eventually, the M16 rifle and 5.56x45mm cartridge replaced the M14-7.62 NATO combination as the primary American weapon of that conflict, but the modified .308 Winchester remains an important part of United States and European military forces to this day.

Military forces from the U.S. and other NATO countries still use the 7.62 NATO, although it is primarily used for mounted-machine-gun and sniper-rifle purposes. In most cartridges, you will find the 7.62 NATO with bullets at roughly 145 to 175 grains.

Side note: 7.62x51mm is NOT the .308 Winchester, but it’s close. The .308 Winchester is generally loaded to higher pressures, but they are generally interchangeable in rifles chambered for one round or the other.

*7.62×39mm (Aka 7.62 Soviet)*




The AK-47 is a tough-as-nails platform with an efficient 7.62 cartridge built for the Soviet Army.

7.62×39 ammunition and the caliber as a whole, which is often called the “7.62 Soviet” (for clarity, this is what we will call it), was developed in the 1940’s as a do-it-all round for the Soviet Union. At the time, the Soviet Union was engaged in war with Nazi Germany.

The Soviets wanted a round that could meet many different needs. Primarily, they wanted to maintain longer effective ranges than pistol cartridges while being small enough to be carried by infantry troops. The initial development started in 1944 and the caliber was used at the tail end of World War II.

After World War II, the AK-47 was developed. Chambered for the versatile 7.62 Soviet, the AK-47 became a dependable weapon for Soviet and communist forces throughout the 20th century. The rifle still has a reputation as a reliable weapon that can withstand the most rugged conditions, from mud to sand to frost. With the spread of the AK-47, the 7.62 Soviet became one of the most-widely used cartridges in the world.

7.62×39 remains a popular cartridge among both military personnel and has even become a popular round for private gun-owners in America.

It is used in hunting for game as large as whitetail deer. It’s also become one of the most popular competition and general-shooting rounds, thanks in large part to its high availability and relatively low cost. When searching for ammo, you will find 7.62 Soviet rounds with a bullet weight of roughly 123 grains.

*7.62×51 vs 7.62×39 Comparison*
It’s difficult to compare the two cartridges, as it is not a straight comparison and rarely are any variables the same. They have different powder loads, different grain sizes, and are not interchangeable cartridges.

However, we’ll do our best to help you understand the difference between the two by focusing on the aspects that concern most gun owners.

_*What’s Cheaper to Shoot – 7.62×39 vs. 7.62×51?*_





The 7.62×39 cartridge is an affordable option for shooters wanting to visit the range on a budget.

Although pricing will depend on the brand, where you buy, and market availability, you will likely discover that the 7.62 Soviet is often cheaper than 7.62×51.

*Advantage: 7.62 Soviet*

_*Velocity Difference – 7.62×39 vs. 7.61×51*_

Because the 7.62 NATO is a larger cartridge loaded powder, it delivers the bullet at a faster speed than the 7.62 Soviet, despite the heavier projectile.

There are many variations, but Federal offers both cartridges. Their 7.62 NATO rounds are listed at nearly 2,800 feet per second in muzzle velocity. Their 7.62 Soviet rounds only reach 2,350 feet per second.

*Advantage: 7.62×51*

_*Energy*_





A side-by-side comparison of targets shot by 7.62×39 and 7.62×51 bullets.

As you might have already guessed, the larger powder load and heavier bullet in the 7.62 NATO results in higher ratings for muzzle and down-range energy.

The American Eagle full metal jacket 7.62 Soviet cartridge from Federal Premium, which has a 124-grain bullet, has a muzzle energy of 1,520 foot-pounds. The same brand’s 7.62 NATO with a 149-grain bullet has a muzzle energy of 2,790 foot pounds.

*Advantage: 7.62 NATO*

_*Trajectory of 7.62×51 vs. 7.62×39*_

It’s also generally accepted that the 7.62 NATO is flatter trajectory. When zeroed in to 100 yards, the same 7.62 Soviet cartridge that we discussed above drops 6.5 inches after 200 yards. It drops almost two feet after 300. However, the NATO drops 3.6 inches after 200 and 13.5 inches after 300.

*Advantage: 7.62 NATO*

*The Bottom Line:*
*Choose 7.62 NATO for Accuracy, Distance-Shooting*
*Choose 7.62 Soviet for High-Volume*




When accuracy matters, 7.62 Nato will get the job done.

If you still can’t decide between the two, it’s probably best to think about your goals for rifle ownership.

If you’re interested in long-distance competition or hobby shooting, then the 7.62 NATO is likely your best option. If you are more interested in high-volume shooting, a rifle chambered for the 7.62 Soviet will likely be a better choice. In either case, both are tried and true calibers that are a true joy to shoot.


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## S-A-B-E-R->

pzfz said:


> There's a lot going on in this pic. AR style 762 Nato and a 556 on the bottom right (both with all the tacticool mods) along with an AK smg (bulgarian style) on the bottom left with back rails. IMO a better solution than placing an order for foreign rifles for the whole army.


lets hope it's just a prototype and production model will be more refined... I am thinking in terms of civilian sales. a 7.62 nato in AR is highly coveted in US alone.
also I hope it has the short-stroke piston action rather than gas blowback.
also a 7.62 Russian version won't be too much to ask.....and a recoil mitigating muzzle brake...Compensator etc

khyli plow ready.


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## PAR 5

PAF recently bought 2662 units with accessories of SMG 7.62x39mm (Chinese Type 56 II) for a total price of US$470000.00. That would amount to a per unit cost of US$176.55 per SMG! - Source MODP YearBook 2017-18

Any questions FN SCAR, Berretta or CZ?

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## The Eagle



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## Rafi

The Eagle said:


>



As I have said many times, plan is there, but we need money, honey but we get it done.

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## pzfz

S-A-B-E-R-> said:


> lets hope it's just a prototype and production model will be more refined... I am thinking in terms of civilian sales. a 7.62 nato in AR is highly coveted in US alone.
> also I hope it has the *short-stroke piston* action rather than gas blowback.
> also a 7.62 Russian version won't be too much to ask.....and a recoil mitigating muzzle brake...Compensator etc
> 
> khyli plow ready.



it does.


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## S-A-B-E-R->




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## Metal 0-1

Don't you guys think its time to buy newer types of M4A1 Block II as well for SOF. Or simply change our supplier because US play sanction sanction every time. Heckler & Koch HK-416 is a good choice. Or maybe Turkish MPT- 55(5.56×45 NATO).


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## Cuirassier

Metal 0-1 said:


> Don't you guys think its time to buy newer types of M4A1 Block II as well for SOF. Or simply change our supplier because US play sanction sanction every time. Heckler & Koch HK-416 is a good choice. Or maybe Turkish MPT- 55(5.56×45 NATO).


Suitable for SMUs for the time being.

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## xbat

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1188689555244929024


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## Sunny4pak

*Pakistan Armed Forces Guns Replacement?*


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## Arsalan

Arsalan said:


> Well sir it is not actually MY idea.  It is something that SOME people in key decision making posts and people with influence have in mind. I mean, there still are souls our there who will like to pursue an indigenous design. Reasons, i am not sure about but the route/path to that can be exactly same as you mentioned.





Arsalan said:


> Balixd, i was discussing this with two irrelevant people. I say irrelevant as even though they are in POF they are responsible for other equipment (other than gun). During the discussion i was told that YES in general, army is looking to adopt an exported gun by producing it in Pakistan and also that meeting the local requirement and export and being given equal importance in this particular tender (usually the system is procured purely on domestic needs and then we may market it for exports as well). *However despite this, there are some people in posts and positions of influence and importance who still have love for a fully home grown solution.* Though out numbered and unlikely to change course of things, these peoples have managed to kept the idea alive for now at least in meetings and all. However, the chances of things going on to that route are slim.



*Enters PK-18! *

The idea was always there, despite some people claiming SCAR being a done deal and discarding the idea of an indigenous gun as ridiculous there were people trying to push things down that route. As i mentioned a couple of years ago, the new gun (imported option with license production, SCAR, Bern or whatever) will be procured in batches and may eventually further help the home grown solution.


Arsalan said:


> Getting a batch of guns and then holding back for some time to see how they perform may well be the case. *The idea behind this approach remains the one of an indigenous gun. There still is some support for this idea and we may see that happen.* It will be good but if we can just get export permission for any of the three above mentioned guns then there won’t be much need to invest on making a new one for our self.



I am not declaring this as a fact as some would do, just sharing a possibility based on what i have learned from my discussions and meetings with people are POF. Let us see what the future hold for us.

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## Army research

Arsalan said:


> *Enters PK-18! *
> 
> The idea was always there, despite some people claiming SCAR being a done deal and discarding the idea of an indigenous gun as ridiculous there were people trying to push things down that route. As i mentioned a couple of years ago, the new gun (imported option with license production, SCAR, Bern or whatever) will be procured in batches and may eventually further help the home grown solution.
> 
> 
> I am not declaring this as a fact as some would do, just sharing a possibility based on what i have learned from my discussions and meetings with people are POF. Let us see what the future hold for us.
> 
> Perhaps we should close this thread for us until there is further development in this regard.


Please close , I joined pdf more than 3 years ago because of this thread, except very very few posts this thread is just die hard gun fandom scar bren etc,
Fingers crossed on the pk18

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## The Eagle

Army research said:


> Please close , I joined pdf more than 3 years ago because of this thread, except very very few posts this thread is just die hard gun fandom scar bren etc,
> Fingers crossed on the pk18



Competition for new Battle Rifle still undergoing, I think. However, that Scar is better than others or the Bren is good; things are personal opinions as well as research based analysis and findings by informed members. The argument will exist until & unless, there is final confirmation. Just saying.

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## Army research

The Eagle said:


> Competition for new Battle Rifle still undergoing, I think. However, that Scar is better than others or the Bren is good; things are personal opinions as well as research based analysis and findings by informed members. The argument will exist until & unless, there is final confirmation. Just saying.


Yeah , to be honest anything is better than g3+Type56 , before pk18 I liked scar but knew it's expensive, but now since pk18 is out we should go for local even if it has a few minor short comings ( if it does at all ) and improve it over iterations as that will save a lot of forex plus if the Pakistan army choose it after it passes tests, we are known for our strict quality control , then others would wish to trial it too if so on limited basis initially

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## Ahmet Pasha

Question in my mind is what will happen to Mp5 and will POF make an LMG/SAW??


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## The Eagle

Army research said:


> Yeah , to be honest anything is better than g3+Type56 , before pk18 I liked scar but knew it's expensive, but now since pk18 is out we should go for local even if it has a few minor short comings ( if it does at all ) and improve it over iterations as that will save a lot of forex plus if the Pakistan army choose it after it passes tests, we are known for our strict quality control , then others would wish to trial it too if so on limited basis initially



Self reliance shall be the ambition and is only way forward in modern day warfare. You have a platform of your own choice, need & requirement as well as an in dependency which saves the Money as well. I see that PK-18 & PK21SMG may lead to a potent yet high quality product in hand of military. It is a good start and honestly, expectations are high seeing its furnishing at this moment. I will personally, want a home made solution instead of reliance on foreign market. POF is going through upgradation as well and we can expect a quality product in the end.

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## Army research

The Eagle said:


> Self reliance shall be the ambition and is only way forward in modern day warfare. You have a platform of your own choice, need & requirement as well as an in dependency which saves the Money as well. I see that PK-18 & PK21SMG may lead to a potent yet high quality product in hand of military. It is a good start and honestly, expectations are high seeing its furnishing at this moment. I will personally, want a home made solution instead of reliance on foreign market. POF is going through upgradation as well and we can expect a quality product in the end.


Same, wish It can reach training institutions soon, 
A army man would feel much more proud holding a weapon that's ' apni ' ,

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## Path-Finder

I guess the next thing is MG3 replacement.

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## Max Pain

Path-Finder said:


> I guess the next thing is MG3 replacement.


I believe it'll stay for a longer time. It still is very good at what its meant to do.

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## Inception-06

Path-Finder said:


> I guess the next thing is MG3 replacement.





No there is nothing actually what could replace it. What could be done is to upgrade it with items etc.

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## Path-Finder

Max Pain said:


> I believe it'll stay for a longer time. It still is very good at what its meant to do.





Inception-06 said:


> No there is nothing actually what could replace it. What could be done is to upgrade it with items etc.


@Rafi

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## Ahmet Pasha

MG3 could be replaced doubt PA will want to do that tho.

Improvements to MG3 on other hand are very possible. Like a belt fed back pack version would be nice.


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## Zarvan

Inception-06 said:


> No there is nothing actually what could replace it. What could be done is to upgrade it with items etc.


There are lot of things which can replace MG3.

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## Signalian

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Question in my mind is what will happen to Mp5 and will POF make an LMG/SAW??


MP5 is useless unless in CQB with ranges 50-300 m.



Zarvan said:


> There are lot of things which can replace MG3.


MG-3 wont be replaced



Path-Finder said:


> I guess the next thing is MG3 replacement.


Weapons proven in combat are considered Effective weapons, they are hardly replaceable.

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## Path-Finder

Signalian said:


> MP5 is useless unless in CQB with ranges 50-300 m.
> 
> 
> MG-3 wont be replaced
> 
> 
> Weapons proven in combat are considered Effective weapons, they are hardly replaceable.


@Rafi has hinted that a replacement is in mind a year or more ago!

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## Signalian

Path-Finder said:


> @Rafi has hinted that a replacement is in mind a year or more ago!


Not more than a year ago, since many many years but whats the ground reality ?

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## Path-Finder

Signalian said:


> Not more than a year ago, since many many years but whats the ground reality ?


I don't know!

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## Sine Nomine

Signalian said:


> Not more than a year ago, since many many years but whats the ground reality ?


MG-3 would serve till end of times maybe,all mature designs have taken one thing or another things from it or if nothing,they don't bring anything new on table which MG-3 havn't.
It's a weapon which works fine,even at places where Ak's have stopped.


Zarvan said:


> There are lot of things which can replace MG3.


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## Inception-06

Signalian said:


> MP5 is useless unless in CQB with ranges 50-300 m.
> 
> 
> MG-3 wont be replaced
> 
> 
> Weapons proven in combat are considered Effective weapons, they are hardly replaceable.




Why MP-5 is still in Service? On the Section Level for example with the Signal guys and the Tank-crews MP-5 is still in service @Bossman said its still worth to be in duty, I disagreed, because of the little effective range and less penetrating power (bulletprof vests..)

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## fitpOsitive

Inception-06 said:


> Why MP-5 is still in Service? On the Section Level for example with the Signal guys and the Tank-crews MP-5 is still in service @Bossman said its still worth to be in duty, I disagreed, because of the little effective range and less penetrating power (bulletprof vests..)


You know why MP5 is called pistol and why it was introduced in the first place..

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## Inception-06

fitpOsitive said:


> You know why MP5 is called pistol and why it was introduced in the first place..


 No I don't know, could you please elaborate ?


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## fitpOsitive

Inception-06 said:


> No I don't know, could you please elaborate ?


It was developed initially to give something more accurate than UZI, yet light in weight and smaller in size. Mainly developed for commando and special operations. Yes some other guns are also used in such operations like FN P90, but again, these guns are short range gun pistols. The question is: what better ulternatives are available in this situation and are they also feasible for induction? Current decision for AK103 is a good example in this case.

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## Sine Nomine

fitpOsitive said:


> It was developed initially to give something more accurate than UZI, yet light in weight and smaller in size. Mainly developed for commando and special operations. Yes some other guns are also used in such operations like FN P90, but again, these guns are short range gun pistols. The question is: what better ulternatives are available in this situation and are they also feasible for induction? Current decision for AK103 is a good example in this case.


Sub Machine Gun has lost it's charm, it's era of carbines now.Apart from special duties we don't see any widespread use of pistol caliber.
Their effective range in hands of general cadre is less than 100m.


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## fitpOsitive

Sine Nomine said:


> Sub Machine Gun has lost it's charm, it's era of carbines now.Apart from special duties we don't see any widespread use of pistol caliber.
> Their effective range in hands of *general cadre is less than 100m*.


Doesn't make much difference anyway. May be Laser rifles will do


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## Sine Nomine

fitpOsitive said:


> Doesn't make much difference anyway. May be Laser rifles will do


Nodoubt.


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## Zarvan

Signalian said:


> Not more than a year ago, since many many years but whats the ground reality ?


Mg3 will have to go. No it is not enough for modern times when countries are going for more compact and light weight Machine Guns your soldiers are not Sultan Rahi that they can keep taking out enemies with Gandasa. This happens in films not in modern times. For still position yes it could be great but if you want to modernize your Army and make a Machine Gun guy part of Unit which is mobile MG3 has to go.

@Path-Finder


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## Signalian

Zarvan said:


> Mg3 will have to go. No it is not enough for modern times when countries are going for more compact and light weight Machine Guns your soldiers are not Sultan Rahi that they can keep taking out enemies with Gandasa. This happens in films not in modern times. For still position yes it could be great but if you want to modernize your Army and make a *Machine Gun guy* part of Unit which is mobile MG3 has to go.
> 
> @Path-Finder



Your basic concepts about infantry weapons are not clear 

In films, a lot of things happens, such as replacement with in minutes - probably in just 1-2 scenes, isn't that what you want ? Stop watching Sultan Rahi movies, come into the real world.

In real life however, many other factors are considered such as effectiveness of a weapon in combat. Why don't you go and ask a section commander who is made in-charge of an LMG or MG-3, what are his views about this weapon. Yes, the "Machine Gun guy" is part of a section of around 10 men. The weapon (LMG) itself doesn't have any limitations whether its static or mobile. LMG is used both in defensive and offensive positions. Even in an assault, a soldier is not considered to run a marathon across the battlefield carrying a weapon; he is expected to be part of a team and use his weapon effectively (marching fire if necessary). That weapon is usually an assault rifle with semi-auto, full-auto and burst modes along with safety. The accuracy as well as rage of LMG increases when its deployed on a bi pod or tri pod as it provides suppressing fire. LMG is carried during an assault but if fired while on move from hips, the accuracy diminishes. LMG is expected to have more range (600m +) than an assault rifle range (400m +). The accuracy of assault rifle is effective when its fired with its butt tucked in shoulder and using sights for aiming. Firing an LMG in this position is possible with bi-pod, hardly otherwise. Then some weapons look good on paper, others prove their worth in battlefield. G-3 and MG-3 itself has proved effective in all types of wars that Pakistan Military has fought. AK-56 is also another effective assault rifle. 

You are a government employee, right ? you should talk to security guards armed with G-3 or MG-3 in pickets or better yet talk to soldiers manning these weapons.

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## Zarvan

Signalian said:


> Your basic concepts about infantry weapons are not clear
> 
> In films, a lot of things happens, such as replacement with in minutes - probably in just 1-2 scenes, isn't that what you want ? Stop watching Sultan Rahi movies, come into the real world.
> 
> In real life however, many other factors are considered such as effectiveness of a weapon in combat. Why don't you go and ask a section commander who is made in-charge of an LMG or MG-3, what are his views about this weapon. Yes, the "Machine Gun guy" is part of a section of around 10 men. The weapon (LMG) itself doesn't have any limitations whether its static or mobile. LMG is used both in defensive and offensive positions. Even in an assault, a soldier is not considered to run a marathon across the battlefield carrying a weapon; he is expected to be part of a team and use his weapon effectively (marching fire if necessary). That weapon is usually an assault rifle with semi-auto, full-auto and burst modes along with safety. The accuracy as well as rage of LMG increases when its deployed on a bi pod or tri pod as it provides suppressing fire. LMG is carried during an assault but if fired while on move from hips, the accuracy diminishes. LMG is expected to have more range (600m +) than an assault rifle range (400m +). The accuracy of assault rifle is effective when its fired with its butt tucked in shoulder and using sights for aiming. Firing an LMG in this position is possible with bi-pod, hardly otherwise. Then some weapons look good on paper, others prove their worth in battlefield. G-3 and MG-3 itself has proved effective in all types of wars that Pakistan Military has fought. AK-56 is also another effective assault rifle.
> 
> You are a government employee, right ? you should talk to security guards armed with G-3 or MG-3 in pickets or better yet talk to soldiers manning these weapons.


I have talked to these guys and their answer is based on they have no option. Giving them option and you would see the results. The moment SSG got option they got rid of Type 56 and switched to M4. Also now LCB units are doing same. It seem we have some special love for G3 and Type 56 and MG3. Give them option and trust most will get rid of G3 and Type 56


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## Sine Nomine

Zarvan said:


> Mg3 will have to go. No it is not enough for modern times when countries are going for more compact and light weight Machine Guns your soldiers are not Sultan Rahi that they can keep taking out enemies with Gandasa. This happens in films not in modern times. For still position yes it could be great but if you want to modernize your Army and make a Machine Gun guy part of Unit which is mobile MG3 has to go.
> 
> @Path-Finder


(No offence)
Bahi kabi Zindgi mai rifle use ke hai,let alone lmg?



Signalian said:


> LMG is carried during an assault but if fired while on move from hips, the accuracy diminishes.


What are you views on useing of RPD,SAW or RPK from hip position during assult?
I have seen few teams using them.



Zarvan said:


> I have talked to these guys and their answer is based on they have no option. Giving them option and you would see the results. The moment SSG got option they got rid of Type 56 and switched to M4. Also now LCB units are doing same. It seem we have some special love for G3 and Type 56 and MG3. Give them option and trust most will get rid of G3 and Type 56


What options you suggest and what they bring on table as compared to MG3?(Don't bring on rails,plz)

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## RAMPAGE

How about developing and testing an AK103 chambered in 7.62x51? The Russians recently came up with a similar variant called AK308.

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## Zarvan

RAMPAGE said:


> How about developing and testing an AK103 chambered in 7.62x51? The Russians recently came up with a similar variant called AK308.


In my opinion AK 200 series and AK-308 will come. Along with PK 18 as local solution.

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## Army research

Zarvan said:


> In my opinion AK 200 series and AK-308 will come. Along with PK 18 as local solution.


No need , ak103 is being made locally it will suffice, 
We need to focus on optronics and C4ISR more than weapons for now, as PK18 and 21 seem to be good enough, 
As for MG1A3, We can upgrade it like the BudesWher has, replace metal parts with advances polymers, bipod tripod parts with polymers , to reduce weight , add mill std rails on optics area and underbarrel for foregripcumbipod, add a muzzle brake , 
There you have a reduced weight , modern standard incredibly effective machine gun in the 7.62x51 category, 
The MG3 is one hell of a weapon , just like the Browning .50 which is still being used despite being older than the MG3/42, 
The chain saw has been feared since 1942, the sheer rate of fire, ease of replacing barrel and accuracy are what a section commander loves, 
What do you intend to replace this with ? 
I suggest that we introduce the concept of SAW, ie a squad automatic weapon like the Americans have the M249 ( FN MINIMI PARA ), 
One easy way to do this is suppose the pk18 gets pushed into service, make a variant of it with a heavier and longer barrel , 45-60 round drum or mag, and voila you have a SAW,

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## fitpOsitive

Zarvan said:


> In my opinion AK 200 series and AK-308 will come. Along with PK 18 as local solution.


Allah Kare, mushkil hai waisy.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Army research said:


> No need , ak103 is being made locally it will suffice,
> We need to focus on optronics and C4ISR more than weapons for now, as PK18 and 21 seem to be good enough,
> As for MG1A3, We can upgrade it like the BudesWher has, replace metal parts with advances polymers, bipod tripod parts with polymers , to reduce weight , add mill std rails on optics area and underbarrel for foregripcumbipod, add a muzzle brake ,
> There you have a reduced weight , modern standard incredibly effective machine gun in the 7.62x51 category,
> The MG3 is one hell of a weapon , just like the Browning .50 which is still being used despite being older than the MG3/42,
> The chain saw has been feared since 1942, the sheer rate of fire, ease of replacing barrel and accuracy are what a section commander loves,
> What do you intend to replace this with ?
> I suggest that we introduce the concept of SAW, ie a squad automatic weapon like the Americans have the M249 ( FN MINIMI PARA ),
> One easy way to do this is suppose the pk18 gets pushed into service, make a variant of it with a heavier and longer barrel , 45-60 round drum or mag, and voila you have a SAW,


I agree. POF should focus on developing new variants of the PK18. The underlying platform is fine, but with future iterations it can introduce short-stroke piston, lighter materials, a folding butt-stock (if asked upon) and more.

The more we develop internal expertise on the AR platform and the underlying technologies at POF, the easier it'll be for POF to emulate the work of Sig Sauer, Heckler & Koch, and other AR makers.

We also need to make sure we're sourcing the materials and parts internally, or have it on our roadmap in the next 3-5 years. In time, the PK18, PK21, LSR, POF10, etc should be 100% indigenous, which would make the POF family an extremely competitive (pricing wise) package on the world market.

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## Signalian

Sine Nomine said:


> What are you views on useing of RPD,SAW or RPK from hip position during assult?
> I have seen few teams using them.


If those fire teams say that firing MG from hip is practical and effective in direct combat, then by all means hip fire with MG should be utilized in battlefield. When assaulting an enemy position, soldiers with assault rifles crouch, sit or crawl even, not only for concise targeting but also for cover. A soldier firing an LMG from hip will be the first one to be taken out by enemy, he is not only exposing his fully body but also proving bigger threat. Position the same LMG at a strategic position on bi-pod instead and then concentrate fire on enemy position to allow rifle men to crawl near enemy position and then change position - could bring better results.



Zarvan said:


> I have talked to these guys and their answer is based on they have no option. Giving them option and you would see the results. The moment SSG got option they got rid of Type 56 and switched to M4. Also now LCB units are doing same. It seem we have some special love for G3 and Type 56 and MG3. Give them option and trust most will get rid of G3 and Type 56


Did you get the jist of my question - did those soldiers say that G-3 or MG-3 doesn't perform, isn't effective, isn't practical ? 
What other options (which other guns have they fired) have those soldiers utilized - that they want a different option ? 
SSG and LCB have different role which involve CQB and that involves different weapons and tactics, not an LMG.

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## Thorough Pro

YOu just evaporated fanboy warfighting expertise gained through watching Rambo and Commando movies



Signalian said:


> If those fire teams say that firing MG from hip is practical and effective in direct combat, then by all means hip fire with MG should be utilized in battlefield. When assaulting an enemy position, soldiers with assault rifles crouch, sit or crawl even, not only for concise targeting but also for cover. A soldier firing an LMG from hip will be the first one to be taken out by enemy, he is not only exposing his fully body but also proving bigger threat. Position the same LMG at a strategic position on bi-pod instead and then concentrate fire on enemy position to allow rifle men to crawl near enemy position and then change position - could bring better results.
> 
> 
> Did you get the jist of my question - did those soldiers say that G-3 or MG-3 doesn't perform, isn't effective, isn't practical ?
> What other options (which other guns have they fired) have those soldiers utilized - that they want a different option ?
> SSG and LCB have different role which involve CQB and that involves different weapons and tactics, not an LMG.

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## Signalian

Thorough Pro said:


> YOu just evaporated fanboy warfighting expertise gained through watching Rambo and Commando movies


 sorry

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## Sine Nomine

Signalian said:


> If those fire teams say that firing MG from hip is practical and effective in direct combat, then by all means hip fire with MG should be utilized in battlefield.


All LMG's in cal 7.62x51/54 are impractical to use from hip position citing huge recoil impulse combined with platform weight,if enemy even fails to hit,spread of your fire from hip using these weapons would only make noise nothing else and can even put your team members life in danger.
I have listed 7.62x39 and 5.56 LMG's,which have low recoil impulse.I was talking about them.


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## Signalian

Sine Nomine said:


> I have listed 7.62x39 and 5.56 LMG's,which have low recoil impulse.I was talking about them.


Lets not go in circles. Why don't you elaborate showing effectiveness or practicality or tactical advantage with a video or something like field manual or any other example.

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## Zarvan

Signalian said:


> If those fire teams say that firing MG from hip is practical and effective in direct combat, then by all means hip fire with MG should be utilized in battlefield. When assaulting an enemy position, soldiers with assault rifles crouch, sit or crawl even, not only for concise targeting but also for cover. A soldier firing an LMG from hip will be the first one to be taken out by enemy, he is not only exposing his fully body but also proving bigger threat. Position the same LMG at a strategic position on bi-pod instead and then concentrate fire on enemy position to allow rifle men to crawl near enemy position and then change position - could bring better results.
> 
> 
> Did you get the jist of my question - did those soldiers say that G-3 or MG-3 doesn't perform, isn't effective, isn't practical ?
> What other options (which other guns have they fired) have those soldiers utilized - that they want a different option ?
> SSG and LCB have different role which involve CQB and that involves different weapons and tactics, not an LMG.


AK 47 also works still most countries have moved on. Having lack of options doesn't make the answer any different. Give them option and trust me none of them would choose G3 or MG3. Entire world is not dumb and stupid that they are moving towards lightweight and compact weapons. If they had so much love for G3 and Type 56 the moment they got an option it went out of the window and M4 came in. And M4 also is not the Gun without issues it requires massive oiling still they stopped using Type 56.


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## Army research

Zarvan said:


> AK 47 also works still most countries have moved on. Having lack of options doesn't make the answer any different. Give them option and trust me none of them would choose G3 or MG3. Entire world is not dumb and stupid that they are moving towards lightweight and compact weapons. If they had so much love for G3 and Type 56 the moment they got an option it went out of the window and M4 came in. And M4 also is not the Gun without issues it requires massive oiling still they stopped using Type 56.


What if I tell you they still use type 56 and newer 103s in very large numbers, only for drill m4 is used and also used by close protection squads, Zarrar Coy etc the only parts of ssg that come into public limelight

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## Signalian

Zarvan said:


> AK 47 also works still most countries have moved on. Having lack of options doesn't make the answer any different. Give them option and trust me none of them would choose G3 or MG3. Entire world is not dumb and stupid that they are moving towards lightweight and compact weapons. If they had so much love for G3 and Type 56 the moment they got an option it went out of the window and M4 came in. And M4 also is not the Gun without issues it requires massive oiling still they stopped using Type 56.


Was AK-47 widely spread in PA ? Since AK-47 had left its mark, Type-56 made its way into inventory. So a variant of AK-47 is still seen in action in PA. I feel your thinking pattern but I can't trust you that soldiers wont choose G-3 or MG-3 due to my own experience and talk with officers/soldiers. G-3 and Type-56 never went outside the window even after introduction of M-4. G-3/Type-56 are still widely and primarily used. M-4 is used in certain cadres only. I have seen Steyr-Aug with some Pakistani security forces also.

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## Sine Nomine

Signalian said:


> Lets not go in circles. Why don't you elaborate showing effectiveness or practicality or tactical advantage with a video or something like field manual or any other example.


Layman had some trigger time behind PKM,RPD and RPK.


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## Zarvan

Signalian said:


> Was AK-47 widely spread in PA ? Since AK-47 had left its mark, Type-56 made its way into inventory. So a variant of AK-47 is still seen in action in PA. I feel your thinking pattern but I can't trust you that soldiers wont choose G-3 or MG-3 due to my own experience and talk with officers/soldiers. G-3 and Type-56 never went outside the window even after introduction of M-4. G-3/Type-56 are still widely and primarily used. M-4 is used in certain cadres only. I have seen Steyr-Aug with some Pakistani security forces also.


O Bhai trust me if Pakistan had the money and our soldiers got option to decide from 4 Rifles which include G3 and SCAR and Barreta and one or two more Rifles of 7.62 X 51 caliber trust me most won't choose G3


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## fatman17

Analysis on the new Chinese Infantry Rifle Family, Part 1

Timothy Yan

5.8x42, Assault Rifle, Chinese, Infantry Rifle, QBZ-03, QBZ-95, rifle 
November 4, 2019




A new Chinese Infantry rifle was revealed at the recent October 1st, 2019 Chinese National Day Parade, which celebrated the 70th anniversary of the founding of the PRC. Some Western sources are quick in calling this rifle the Type 19, however, random pictures of it had been showing up as far back as 2014. By tradition, the Chinese military will only parade a weapon that’s in service. While we don’t know what the year numbering in its name is yet, it will likely to continue use the QBZ naming convention, which is the Chinese Pin-Yin alphabet abbreviation for “Qing-Bing-Qi, Bu-Chiang, Zi-Dong” or “Small Arms, Infantry Rifle, Automatic”. No technical details of the new rifle have been released yet other than it is still chambered in 5.8x42mm caliber.

It’s unknown if it’s a replacement for all existing 5.8mm caliber rifles or just another addition. Please remember that the older Type 81 rifle in 7.62x39mm is still in some limited Chinese service as of 2019, so much for the progress of replacing it with 5.8mm rifle that started 22 years ago. 

The carbine version of the new Chinese rifle with the 4x prism sight mounted and the optional “smart” grip-pod, which could remotely activates the comm headset and night vision gear.

The Design:

A departure from their QBZ-95’s bullpup layout, this new rifle is using a conventional layout. The main emphasis is on modularization and improved ergonomics, as well as the general issue of optical sights. 

While my initial assumption is that this rifle is just a modernized QBZ-03. The QBZ-03 was created as a supplementary rifle to the QBZ-95 bullpup for issuing to low-priority units such as reservists, paramilitary, security garrisons and military schools. The QBZ-03 rifle was designed by Ms. Fan Fong Mei from the Jian She Industrial Corporation in the city of Chong Qing, and part of the China South Group. She’s probably the only woman designer working on modern small arms.

Her QBZ-03 features a conventional layout with an adjustable short-stroke gas system and the trigger pack from the Type 81 rifle, all contained in Western-style upper and lower forged aluminum alloy receiver that are held together by two push-pins. A unique feature on the QBZ-03 is that its bolt carrier group hangs from a T-shaped longitudinal slot inside of the upper receiver. The cost saving is not really in the weapon itself, but rather it eliminates the need for lengthy retraining to transition from a conventional layout Type 81 rifle to the Type 95 bullpup. 

The left side of the new Chinese rifle showcases the large bolt release button and the 45-degess-throw ambi-selector.

Upon a closer look of the new rifle, it dawned on me that there are significant differences in detail to the QBZ-03 rifle. It’s unknown if Ms. Fan is involved or how much of the QBZ-03 rifle design has been left retained. In fact, from leaked CAD renderings of an early prototype, the bolt carrier of the new rifle resembles the tubular bolt carrier of Eugene Stoner’s design, and its short-stroke piston and piston return spring layout is somewhat similar to that of the Heckler & Koch’s HK416. I’m not yet sure if the rotating bolt features the M-16’s Johnson-Stoner style multiple small locking lugs or retains the three-lug bolt of the recent Chinese 5.8mm rifles. Possibly the most fascinating part is the adoption of the M4-style buffer tube system and collapsible butt stock! 

CAD rendering of the early prototype shows the new Chinese rifle is featuring a M4 style receivers, buffer tube, and HK416 type short-stroke gas system.

There’s a large rectangular rise on the left side of the upper receiver just above the magazine. At first, I thought that it was the solid ejector from the QBZ-03, which is held in place by two rivets for easier replacement. That really originated from the even earlier Type 81 design. However, the location is too far forward to be for a solid ejector. Also, more recent Chinese small arms designs are now embracing the plunger style ejector found in the M-16 and other Western rifles. So, what are the two rivets for and why is the rise so much larger than that of the cam pin rise on the AR receiver? My best guest is that the two rivets are holding a steel reinforced cam pin recess piece inside and the cam pin is quit a bit bigger than that used by the AR bolt.

The carbine variant with the 4-position collapsible stock extended and iron sight flipped up. 

Variants:

This new rifle will be coming in at least three major variants: carbine, rifle and designated marksman rifle (DMR). The carbine features a 10- to 12-inch heavy profile barrel. The rifle has a 14- to 16-inch medium contour barrel. Both have non free-floating polymer handguards that mount to a hexagon-shaped bracket attached to the large gas block. The DMR comes with 18- to 20-inch heavy profile barrel and a free-floating M-LOK metal handguard. It will be interesting to see if the designated marksman rifle version will replace the QBU-88 bullpup DMR in the future. The QBU-88 bullpup DMR is based on the Type 85 SVD, but shrunk down for the 5.8mm caliber in a bullpup configuration. It is known for its rather lackluster accuracy and uses a proprietary 10-round steel magazine. Low-resolution photos show the new DMR model being tested with the 4-16x50mm scope from the QBU-14 series of Chinese bolt action sniper rifles. There’s also supposed to be a 6x prism sight in development for it. 

The standard rifle model with its longer barrel will probably be the main production variant.

So, I’m beginning to suspect that this new rifle family has nothing to do with Ms. Fan Fong Mei’s QBZ-03 design. Instead, it’s been developed by the military’s own 208th Small Arms Research Institute, located just north of Beijing. It’s basically their own version of the HK416 with Chinese characteristics—in 5.8x42mm, with a side charging handle, and it accepts a “rock-n-lock” style magazine. 

The new Chinese rifle is part of the PLA’s new individual solider combat system. The other components will be including five new camouflage patterns for uniform, new thermal imaging and night-version sights, new modular body armor and helmet, new individual communication gear and wearable digital battlefield management system. 

Stay tuned for the 2ndpart, as we will dive into the design details. 

**If you like this article, please consider buying Tim a coffee with Paypal or Patreon. Thanks for your support.**

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## Path-Finder

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1194167047908986881
SCAR ne jaan nhi chadni, ain't that right hazrat @Zarvan

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## Super Falcon

AK 103 is a winner POF will manufacture them


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## xbat

Super Falcon said:


> AK 103 is a winner POF will manufacture them


Final decision? sure?

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## python-000

xbat said:


> Final decision? sure?


My bro, this is the different between beauty & the beast...


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## TheDarkKnight

So when is SCAR coming? I thought we had the money, and FN was ready for TOT as well. Apparently user manuals were being distributed in Army too.
Any updates?
@Zarvan @Path-Finder


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## Path-Finder

TheDarkKnight said:


> So when is SCAR coming? I thought we had the money, and FN was ready for TOT as well. Apparently user manuals were being distributed in Army too.
> Any updates?
> @Zarvan @Path-Finder


It wasn't me, it was our Hazrat @Zarvan 

I am totally innocent.


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## Sunny4pak

Super Falcon said:


> AK 103 is a winner POF will manufacture them


Sir, this exact news I have given on my youtube channel back in Oct 2019.


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## PAR 5

This program now is officially scraped at GHQ as it should be here.


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## Haris Ali2140

PAR 5 said:


> This program now is officially scraped at GHQ as it should be here.


Did they selected the PK-18 & PK-21???


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## PAR 5

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Did they selected the PK-18 & PK-21???



They will be using Chinese Type 56-II AND G-3 for the near future because empty pockets cannot demand high end rifles

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## Haris Ali2140

PAR 5 said:


> They will be using Chinese Type 56-II AND G-3 for the near future because empty pockets cannot demand high end rifles


But after budget problem gone will they opt for them or will choose other ofc the shelf options???


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## JPMM

PAR 5 said:


> They will be using Chinese Type 56-II AND G-3 for the near future because empty pockets cannot demand high end rifles


There must be someone from your GHQ in Portuguese Navy. Instead of buing SCAR like PO Army, they are updating the G3

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## blain2

After 429 pages, any conclusion? No! 

Changing the IW within any army is a complex task. Wishlists and fan favorites aside, one should realize that comparing Pakistan Army with Portuguese Army is a joke. We are comparing a fighting force of almost 250,000 to 15,000 or so troops in the latter. These are fighting troops. Then you add the PAF and PN to this list for economies of scale and we are talking about almost half a million individual weapons with sparing. What Portugal can afford for 15,000 troops is an entirely different proposition than equipping half a million.

For as long as the G-3 and AK variants continue to provide value, Pakistan will carry on. This is because this is one of the single largest capital acquisition for the army and one that happens perhaps once every 30-50 years (G-3 was adopted in 1967!)

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## Path-Finder

PAR 5 said:


> They will be using Chinese Type 56-II AND G-3 for the near future because empty pockets cannot demand high end rifles


Is it because, the rifles tested were not anything extraordinary leap over Type56 and G3 that they needed to upgrade!

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## Great Janjua

The g3 needs to be made lighter

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## TheDarkKnight

blain2 said:


> After 429 pages, any conclusion? No!
> 
> Changing the IW within any army is a complex task. Wishlists and fan favorites aside, one should realize that comparing Pakistan Army with Portuguese Army is a joke. We are comparing a fighting force of almost 250,000 to 15,000 or so troops in the latter. These are fighting troops. Then you add the PAF and PN to this list for economies of scale and we are talking about almost half a million individual weapons with sparing. What Portugal can afford for 15,000 troops is an entirely different proposition than equipping half a million.
> 
> For as long as the G-3 and AK variants continue to provide value, Pakistan will carry on. This is because this is one of the single largest capital acquisition for the army and one that happens perhaps once every 30-50 years (G-3 was adopted in 1967!)


Well I would at least like to know if the project is still in progress - slow but is it still on or has it been put in the freezer? I thought CZ bren was working with POF and then there was a local design revealed as well.
@Arsalan @Horus

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## Ahmet Pasha

CZ did get pretty excited that's for sure.
FB Radom was also bisited in Piland by either Fen raheel sharif or Gen bajwa. 

MSBS has 4 different configurations conventional rifle, bullpup, dmr and saw. So a nice package. But it is not modular in the sense that it can be modified to take either 556 or 762 ammo on the spot.


TheDarkKnight said:


> Well I would at least like to know if the project is still in progress - slow but is it still on or has it been put in the freezer? I thought CZ bren was working with POF and then there was a local design revealed as well.
> @Arsalan @Horus


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## Zarvan

I am still hopeful that one western gun will come. 

@Horus

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## Great Janjua

PAR 5 said:


> They will be using Chinese Type 56-II AND G-3 for the near future because empty pockets cannot demand high end rifles


Why would POF waste money to build a new rifle and also buy ak 103 if it would have been scrapped it does not make sense

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## Mig hunter

I think this thread should be converted to indigenous rifles news and discussion

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## Ahmet Pasha

Thread title should be changed to billi ko chichton k khwab.

Or Zarwan ko Scar k khwab.


Mig hunter said:


> I think this thread should be converted to indigenous rifles news and discussion

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## khanasifm

__ https://www.facebook.com/


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## niaz

I was under the impression that the replacements for Type 56 & G-3 have already been chosen. G-3 being replaced by the gas-operated PK -18 and type 56 by PK-21 a version of Ak -103. Or am I mistaken?

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## MastanKhan

Great Janjua said:


> Why would POF waste money to build a new rifle and also buy ak 103 if it would have been scrapped it does not make sense



Commissions---.

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## Invictus.inc

"Not a significant leap forward"
^This statement is made by those that have absolutely no idea what so ever about firearms
The concept of a battle rifle is pretty much dead now 
Most of the current warfare is focused around urban areas
G3 is heavy..it kicks like a mule...the recoil impulse is sharp making successive shots on target difficult to make 
20 round Mag ..Ammo Weight is another problem
Not to mention the absurd length of the weapon
What more reasons do you need to replace it?
Hardly anyone wanted to carry the G3 while carry out Coin Operations
The only use for a G3 is as a squad support weapon possibly a DMR in line with the Hk417 of the Marine Corp & Dragnov Of the Russian Army


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## Thunder.Storm




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## Armchair

niaz said:


> I was under the impression that the replacements for Type 56 & G-3 have already been chosen. G-3 being replaced by the gas-operated PK -18 and type 56 by PK-21 a version of Ak -103. Or am I mistaken?



Looks heavy. why I can't understand. Imagine lugging this around. Not sure why its any better than a G-3.

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## Kompromat

Main point of contention is caliber.

Fauj is double minded over 7.62x51 which automatically carries into .308 win sniper rifle ammunition. It has its own merits.

A progressive group in the Army supports a completely new system with a modern, future proof caliber. For example 6.5mm. Their main argument is what your argument is. If we're going to carry out a huge capital acquisition, it has to offer a significant edge over the previously held capabilities. Basically they think that the Army will be better off with a modern, high performance new caliber which remains future proof for the next 30-50 years period, rather than getting stuck with a Cold War era caliber, simply because we have too much ammo to replace, which will cost a lot. It can however be mitigated by exporting the held stock of 762 ammo to make way for a brand new caliber.





blain2 said:


> After 429 pages, any conclusion? No!
> 
> Changing the IW within any army is a complex task. Wishlists and fan favorites aside, one should realize that comparing Pakistan Army with Portuguese Army is a joke. We are comparing a fighting force of almost 250,000 to 15,000 or so troops in the latter. These are fighting troops. Then you add the PAF and PN to this list for economies of scale and we are talking about almost half a million individual weapons with sparing. What Portugal can afford for 15,000 troops is an entirely different proposition than equipping half a million.
> 
> For as long as the G-3 and AK variants continue to provide value, Pakistan will carry on. This is because this is one of the single largest capital acquisition for the army and one that happens perhaps once every 30-50 years (G-3 was adopted in 1967!)

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Horus said:


> Main point of contention is caliber.
> 
> Fauj is double minded over 7.62x51 which automatically carries into .308 win sniper rifle ammunition. It has its own merits.
> 
> A progressive group in the Army supports a completely new system with a modern, future proof caliber. For example 6.5mm. Their main argument is what your argument is. If we're going to carry out a huge capital acquisition, it has to offer a significant edge over the previously held capabilities. Basically they think that the Army will be better off with a modern, high performance new caliber which remains future proof for the next 30-50 years period, rather than getting stuck with a Cold War era caliber, simply because we have too much ammo to replace, which will cost a lot. It can however be mitigated by exporting the held stock of 762 ammo to make way for a brand new caliber.


One other issue is that the PA may not procure as many of the next-gen rifle as it had G3s. The future is shifting to a technology-heavy force, and the infantry force 20-30 years in the future may not be as large as it is today.

This is going to affect the overhead a little in that switching to a new rifle design (a fixed upfront cost of $300 m+ US) may not generate as much stretch as the G3. You need to offset that with exports, but for that, you need an attractive (read: new) design.

Second, a future infantry soldier might operate very differently from the one today. I think the LCB could offer a sign of where things are going, i.e., more specialization, autonomous operation, etc. So, any new rifle must meet those future needs in terms of weight, caliber, accessories, etc.

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## Path-Finder

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> One other issue is that the PA may not procure as many of the next-gen rifle as it had G3s. The future is shifting to a technology-heavy force, and the infantry force 20-30 years in the future may not be as large as it is today.
> 
> This is going to affect the overhead a little in that switching to a new rifle design (a fixed upfront cost of $300 m+ US) may not generate as much stretch as the G3. You need to offset that with exports, but for that, you need an attractive (read: new) design.
> 
> Second, a future infantry soldier might operate very differently from the one today. I think the LCB could offer a sign of where things are going, i.e., more specialization, autonomous operation, etc. So, any new rifle must meet those future needs in terms of weight, caliber, accessories, etc.


an air force driven army.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Path-Finder said:


> an air force driven army.


Ideally, a lot more attack helicopters, transport helicopters, ISR aircraft (e.g., jets or turboprops with SAR-GMTI and EO/IR), artillery, tanks, tracked IFVs and wheeled AFVs with ATGM and 105 mm guns, UAVs, mobile SAM units, and possibly even fixed-wing turboprops (manned or drones), etc. You could still maintain a 500,000+ Army, but the future may see a higher proportion of those guys (vs. today) on equipment than on foot.

Basically go from an "Army" to a "Land Force."

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## Sine Nomine

US has tried and got itself failed.To me it looks like there is no replacement for 7.62x51mm in hindsight.
It's better to just wait and watch, outcome of US NGSW program,if it doesn't ends like previous one's,world may see another huge shift in small arms.

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## Bilal.

Horus said:


> Main point of contention is caliber.
> 
> Fauj is double minded over 7.62x51 which automatically carries into .308 win sniper rifle ammunition. It has its own merits.
> 
> A progressive group in the Army supports a completely new system with a modern, future proof caliber. For example 6.5mm. Their main argument is what your argument is. If we're going to carry out a huge capital acquisition, it has to offer a significant edge over the previously held capabilities. Basically they think that the Army will be better off with a modern, high performance new caliber which remains future proof for the next 30-50 years period, rather than getting stuck with a Cold War era caliber, simply because we have too much ammo to replace, which will cost a lot. It can however be mitigated by exporting the held stock of 762 ammo to make way for a brand new caliber.



something that I proposed 2 years ago on this thread:




Bilal. said:


> In my opinion, the decision should be suspended for a couple of years, since 7.62 is becoming obsolescent and we are on the verge of new (and superior) caliber standard being introduced, most likely a creedmoor derivative that would utterly outclass 762 in terms of accuracy, range, power, recoil and weight.





Bilal. said:


> It would have to be gradual for sure, but buying billions worth of rifles that will stay with us for the next 30-40 years should not be based on an obsolescent round in my opinion.

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## Path-Finder

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1225103691222540295

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1225103694145949696
It appears the thinking is universal now! makes sense to go with a universal approach.

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## Irfan Baloch

Horus said:


> Main point of contention is caliber.
> 
> Fauj is double minded over 7.62x51 which automatically carries into .308 win sniper rifle ammunition. It has its own merits.
> 
> A progressive group in the Army supports a completely new system with a modern, future proof caliber. For example 6.5mm. Their main argument is what your argument is. If we're going to carry out a huge capital acquisition, it has to offer a significant edge over the previously held capabilities. Basically they think that the Army will be better off with a modern, high performance new caliber which remains future proof for the next 30-50 years period, rather than getting stuck with a Cold War era caliber, simply because we have too much ammo to replace, which will cost a lot. It can however be mitigated by exporting the held stock of 762 ammo to make way for a brand new caliber.


current remaining stock can be gradually phased out. 6.5mm makes sense. its lighter and cheaper than 7.62 but still carries the weight and stopping power better than 5.5mm

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## Kompromat

We need to switch to .338 Lapua for sniper rifle applications.

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## Sine Nomine

Horus said:


> We need to switch to .338 Lapua for sniper rifle applications.


A better idea would be having it alongside a .338 LM Machine Gun,it would fill gap between 7.62x51 and 12.7 machine guns and certainly would outgun enemy MG's.

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## Amaa'n

*POF Walo!!!! Koi Sharam hoti hai koi Haya hoti hai 
*
Its an AR10 .308 / 7.62x 51
They made entire rifle inhouse, Bolt to barrel to upper & lower to Trigger group....everything made on CNC machine......





__ https://www.facebook.com/







@Path-Finder @Zarvan @Horus

P.S I have seen the weapon and it's not bad, only thing missing is heat treatment......

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## Zarvan

Foxtrot Alpha said:


> *POF Walo!!!! Koi Sharam hoti hai koi Haya hoti hai
> *
> 
> They made entire rifle inhouse, Bolt to barrel to upper & lower to Trigger group....everything made on CNC machine......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Path-Finder @Zarvan @Horus
> 
> P.S I have seen the weapon and it's not bad, only thing missing is heat treatment......


POF really need to use these people plus some help from Turkish companies and can come up with one of the best AR style Rifle but that needs vision which people at POF seem to lack


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## Path-Finder

Foxtrot Alpha said:


> *POF Walo!!!! Koi Sharam hoti hai koi Haya hoti hai
> *
> 
> They made entire rifle inhouse, Bolt to barrel to upper & lower to Trigger group....everything made on CNC machine......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Path-Finder @Zarvan @Horus
> 
> P.S I have seen the weapon and it's not bad, only thing missing is heat treatment......








I knew if these boys could learn machining, tooling & CNC then they could develop instead of copy. What calibre is it?

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## Sine Nomine

It isn't easy as it seems.


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## Amaa'n

Path-Finder said:


> I knew if these boys could learn machining, tooling & CNC then they could develop instead of copy. What calibre is it?


this Quarantine is really taking a toll on me.theres a disconnect b/w my brain(what i intend to write) & what actually write :facepalm: ....i wanted to mention that it's an AR10 rifle and look i clearly ommitted that and on twitter i wanted to write AR10 and i wrote AR15 ......
am editing almost every post of mine on forum, some posts i even end up editing 5-7 times.........
and am Quarantined as in #Isolated at a facility....not that am infected but i came in contact with someone who was so..........



Zarvan said:


> POF really need to use these people plus some help from Turkish companies and can come up with one of the best AR style Rifle but that needs vision which people at POF seem to lack


bhai they had been making M4 for 2yrs now and have perfected that as they perfected Tokarev.....
this one is actually AR10. chambered in 7.62, which so have has not been done by anyone.....
they are working on ARX 9mmniw

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

@Hassan Guy @Falcon26 this is an example of where offsets can work in Pakistan right away.

Say the Army orders $120 m in goods from some OEM, a $40 m investment in these small arms companies (via facility upgrades, training, professional marketing, direct sales) could easily score a 2-3X ROI in a very short period of time. Pretty soon, these private companies would be doing more work (revenue wise) than POF.



Foxtrot Alpha said:


> *POF Walo!!!! Koi Sharam hoti hai koi Haya hoti hai
> *
> Its an AR10 .308 / 7.62x 51
> They made entire rifle inhouse, Bolt to barrel to upper & lower to Trigger group....everything made on CNC machine......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Path-Finder @Zarvan @Horus
> 
> P.S I have seen the weapon and it's not bad, only thing missing is heat treatment......

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## Path-Finder

Foxtrot Alpha said:


> this Quarantine is really taking a toll on me.theres a disconnect b/w my brain(what i intend to write) & what actually write :facepalm: ....i wanted to mention that it's an AR10 rifle and look i clearly ommitted that and on twitter i wanted to write AR10 and i wrote AR15 ......
> am editing almost every post of mine on forum, some posts i even end up editing 5-7 times.........
> and am Quarantined as in #Isolated at a facility....not that am infected but i came in contact with someone who was so..........


yikes keep safe.


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## HRK

Foxtrot Alpha said:


> this Quarantine is really taking a toll on me.theres a disconnect b/w my brain(what i intend to write) & what actually write :facepalm: ....i wanted to mention that it's an AR10 rifle and look i clearly ommitted that and on twitter i wanted to write AR10 and i wrote AR15 ......
> am editing almost every post of mine on forum, some posts i even end up editing 5-7 times.........
> and am Quarantined as in #Isolated at a facility....not that am infected but i came in contact with someone who was so..........
> 
> 
> bhai they had been making M4 for 2yrs now and have perfected that as they perfected Tokarev.....
> this one is actually AR10. chambered in 7.62, which so have has not been done by anyone.....
> they are working on ARX 9mmniw


stay safe and secure ....


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## Ahmet Pasha

Could such companies get market share in market like America 2nd amendment country. Where some preppers have hundreds of guns and that's just on the smaller scale on the hillybilly prepper spectrum.


Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> @Hassan Guy @Falcon26 this is an example of where offsets can work in Pakistan right away.
> 
> Say the Army orders $120 m in goods from some OEM, a $40 m investment in these small arms companies (via facility upgrades, training, professional marketing, direct sales) could easily score a 2-3X ROI in a very short period of time. Pretty soon, these private companies would be doing more work (revenue wise) than POF.


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## Kompromat

POF is simply importing parts and assembling them with their own barrels. Its deplorable at best that they stamp foreign tech under their own name and try to sell their stuff to the Army.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Could such companies get market share in market like America 2nd amendment country. Where some preppers have hundreds of guns and that's just on the smaller scale on the hillybilly prepper spectrum.


Yes. If we buy something from an American company, that company might (as part of an offset) invest in our firms and bring their products to the US. So in this case, the 30% offset amounts to (1) investment and (2) exports to the US. If successful, the program's offsets could match or exceed the USD we spent on the first program.

So, for example...

Let's say the Army orders radars for $120 m with a 33% offset.

The OEM will arrange a FDI deal (either directly or with a partnering company in the US) worth $40 m. That $40 m will go into our private small arms manufacturers.

The FDI source will then try to export the products of its subsidiaries in Pakistan (i.e., the companies it invested in). If it's a popular product, those small firms could push $41 m (i.e., break-even) or 1-100% profit for the OEM.

In hard-currency terms, that could end up to $120 million-plus in hard-currency gains (either with profits from equity sharing OR manufacturing work).

But beyond that, you now have a private sector with experience designing, building and selling small arms to the US. So, they can start engaging other markets on their own, thereby securing even more hard currency gains.

If these firms grow enough, they too can engage in offset deals in other markets, i.e., which becomes FDI _from_ Pakistan. The benefit here is that the profits from projects in other places comes back to Pakistan (this is the stage Turkey is at now).

You also save hard currency expenditure too because the private sector can design and manufacture new arms locally. So, in the future, the Army doesn't need to import those products -- so you also save in the future.

Don't get me wrong, this is the ideal. Things can go horribly wrong with offsets too (due to corruption, incompetence, lack of oversight). In most cases, you end up with a result in the middle, but even that gets your private sector moving and saves you USD down the line (if not generate USD gains via exports).

The keys are competent policymaking, oversight, and vision.


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## Ahmet Pasha

So far I've seen POF MP5 pistols making lots of sales. Apparently Mp5 is hard to get in US market so Pakistani MP5 is very famous with hillbilly 2nd amendmenters.

I think the "afsars" should take some initiative and try to diversify and introduce new products. Clean sheet designs in small arms shouldn't be too hard as there are already tons of revolutionary designs one can get "inspiration" from. 

The AR we saw from POF resembles a lot like the AR sold by a company in USA with the same name i.e POF. Pictured:





So either POF is in on this company and the design. Or this company in US is using POF's name and will thus diminish Pakistan's market share by infringing upon POF's copyrights. POF should sue them for intellectual property if that is indeed the case.


Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Yes. If we buy something from an American company, that company might (as part of an offset) invest in our firms and bring their products to the US. So in this case, the 30% offset amounts to (1) investment and (2) exports to the US. If successful, the program's offsets could match or exceed the USD we spent on the first program.
> 
> So, for example...
> 
> Let's say the Army orders radars for $120 m with a 33% offset.
> 
> The OEM will arrange a FDI deal (either directly or with a partnering company in the US) worth $40 m. That $40 m will go into our private small arms manufacturers.
> 
> The FDI source will then try to export the products of its subsidiaries in Pakistan (i.e., the companies it invested in). If it's a popular product, those small firms could push $41 m (i.e., break-even) or 1-100% profit for the OEM.
> 
> In hard-currency terms, that could end up to $120 million-plus in hard-currency gains (either with profits from equity sharing OR manufacturing work).
> 
> But beyond that, you now have a private sector with experience designing, building and selling small arms to the US. So, they can start engaging other markets on their own, thereby securing even more hard currency gains.
> 
> If these firms grow enough, they too can engage in offset deals in other markets, i.e., which becomes FDI _from_ Pakistan. The benefit here is that the profits from projects in other places comes back to Pakistan (this is the stage Turkey is at now).
> 
> You also save hard currency expenditure too because the private sector can design and manufacture new arms locally. So, in the future, the Army doesn't need to import those products -- so you also save in the future.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, this is the ideal. Things can go horribly wrong with offsets too (due to corruption, incompetence, lack of oversight). In most cases, you end up with a result in the middle, but even that gets your private sector moving and saves you USD down the line (if not generate USD gains via exports).
> 
> The keys are competent policymaking, oversight, and vision.





Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The keys are competent policymaking, oversight, and vision.


Yeah Good luck with those in Pakistan.



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> (this is the stage Turkey is at now).


Pleasantly surprised to see how popular Çanik and Şarşilmaz pistols are becoming here.

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## Zarvan

Horus said:


> POF is simply importing parts and assembling them with their own barrels. Its deplorable at best that they stamp foreign tech under their own name and try to sell their stuff to the Army.


How much the rifle have progressed do you have any new pictures of that Rifle ???


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## Amaa'n

Zarvan said:


> How much the rifle have progressed do you have any new pictures of that Rifle ???


Horus is talking about LSR Sniper

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## mingle

Zarvan said:


> How much the rifle have progressed do you have any new pictures of that Rifle ???


Will PA will get new rifle in this decade????


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## Ahmet Pasha

mingle said:


> Will PA will get new rifle in this decade????

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## Hassan Raza Bhutto

WaLeEdK2 said:


> If PA wants a 7.62 then what they should be testing is Hk-417
> View attachment 240556
> 
> View attachment 240557


Yes Absolutely! HK are awesome and would be very great for our Army.


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## Zarvan

@PanzerKiel Sir do you have any information about Assault Rifle program which you can share with Army's permission. It would be very much appreciated !!!


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## Armchair

interesting that the Creedmore round does not need new mags. The 7.62x51 mags work with them. Old G-3s could be upgraded to this round and certain parts could be built with a lighter material to lower overall weight. 

There is a choice though of going with a conventional 6.5mm round or ones with polymer / composite casings. That would be the riskier path, but the path has to be chosen from the start as such rounds are beefier for the chambering.


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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> How much the rifle have progressed do you have any new pictures of that Rifle ???





Foxtrot Alpha said:


> @Horus is talking about LSR Sniper


Not just LSR. 
I have been saying it from very beginning that no matter we or anyone cry out that SCAR is selected or BERN is finalized or this or that, THERE STILL IS SOME STRONG SUPPORT FOR A LOCAL OPTION. There are people sitting in position that matter who are saying that a local design will be better. No i am not supporting or going against them, just stating the way things are. I am really disappointed how it was made to sound that SCAR is final as if a huge container ship have brought us hundreds of thousands of guns and is just waiting to berth at the port now. Nonsense!! 
Trials conducted, results came out. THERE IS ALWAYS MORE THAN THE TECHNICAL ASPECTS when it come to defense procurement. Horus and many others have indicated that as openly as they can, i too have been crying about it for YEARS now but here we are 6400+ posts later. Still, i am sure there will be people who wont bulge from what they "know" from "sources".

Peace.

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## PanzerKiel

Zarvan said:


> @PanzerKiel Sir do you have any information about Assault Rifle program which you can share with Army's permission. It would be very much appreciated !!!



SCAR H was the one selected as far as I remember. And then come priorities at army level that what you want to buy first.

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## Zarvan

PanzerKiel said:


> SCAR H was the one selected as far as I remember. And then come priorities at army level that what you want to buy first.


Well I really hope we get rid of G3 and Type 56 fast because in the end Infantry is large part of Army and they should have best Gun with them

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## JPMM

Zarvan said:


> Well I really hope we get rid of G3 and Type 56 fast because in the end Infantry is large part of Army and they should have best Gun with them


There is stil hope for you


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## ziaulislam

as long as you can build it locally wihtout being sued and as a plus (optional) sell it outside does it really matter that it should be original design..
we are not aiming for Nobel prize, are we..?

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## Zarvan

ziaulislam said:


> as long as you can build it locally wihtout being sued and as a plus (optional) sell it outside does it really matter that it should be original design..
> we are not aiming for Nobel prize, are we..?


Exactly my point


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## Ark_Angel

PanzerKiel said:


> SCAR H was the one selected as far as I remember. And then come priorities at army level that what you want to buy first.


SCAR-H was selected. Eventually Negotiations halted over ToT. Belgians were rigid over no Re export clause from their end pre 200,000 Units. Project still on Hold.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Tell that to POF and Professional force Army.
Professionalism is good but upto a certain degree.

Wese POF has tried to make make Ar10 and Ak103 knock offs. Let's see what comes out of it.


ziaulislam said:


> as long as you can build it locally wihtout being sued and as a plus (optional) sell it outside does it really matter that it should be original design..
> we are not aiming for Nobel prize, are we..?

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## Armchair

ziaulislam said:


> as long as you can build it locally wihtout being sued and as a plus (optional) sell it outside does it really matter that it should be original design..
> we are not aiming for Nobel prize, are we..?



There is no meaning in selling a licensed product abroad anymore than selling Pakistani built Agosta B submarines. Just come up with a basic design that is somewhat different and suited to Pakistan. Get the local talent like Daudsons involved. This is quite simple, no magic to making your own gun. 

See if 7.62x51 really makes sense or not, come up with the best caliber by actual field use. Or for strategic reasons, go with the Chinese current 5.8mm. Or whatever. 

A journey of a 1000 miles begins with one step. No step is poor policy but I'm not sure what India is doing they seem to be buying all kinds of calibers willy nilly.

If you want an FN Scar H you could go the CZ route, give the gun to a local gun manufacturer, provide them R&D funds, and tell them to come up with something as similar as possible but just different enough to have its own IP. 

Daudsons did a good job with its hand guns in doing exactly that. Give it to Daudsons. Help them with the polymer materials. Viola. Not sure why this has to be more complicated than that.

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## ziaulislam

Armchair said:


> There is no meaning in selling a licensed product abroad anymore than selling Pakistani built Agosta B submarines. Just come up with a basic design that is somewhat different and suited to Pakistan. Get the local talent like Daudsons involved. This is quite simple, no magic to making your own gun.
> 
> See if 7.62x51 really makes sense or not, come up with the best caliber by actual field use. Or for strategic reasons, go with the Chinese current 5.8mm. Or whatever.
> 
> A journey of a 1000 miles begins with one step. No step is poor policy but I'm not sure what India is doing they seem to be buying all kinds of calibers willy nilly.
> 
> If you want an FN Scar H you could go the CZ route, give the gun to a local gun manufacturer, provide them R&D funds, and tell them to come up with something as similar as possible but just different enough to have its own IP.
> 
> Daudsons did a good job with its hand guns in doing exactly that. Give it to Daudsons. Help them with the polymer materials. Viola. Not sure why this has to be more complicated than that.


what i am trying to say..POF doesn't need to sell a gun outside....as long it can sell a reliable gun to POF..where it comes from or what its origin is doesnt matter as long as it passes army quality trials

i am trying to say is *building a copy of something is better than buying it off the shelf from outside..it will be much cheaper.
*
i don't expect much from POF as they don't have any funds for R&D


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## Armchair

Then Pak will just remain a license producer of Western arms, while even UAE, Singapore, Israel and a bunch of small countries are making money exporting their firearms. This is where vision comes into play and having the mental attitude of a true nation.

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## Zarvan

Ark_Angel said:


> SCAR-H was selected. Eventually Negotiations halted over ToT. Belgians were rigid over no Re export clause from their end pre 200,000 Units. Project still on Hold.


Are there chances of negotiations being resumed after Corona or not ???


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## Path-Finder

I would pay attention to how the 6.8 tests are going. Personally Pakistan should make its independent judgement and adopt a single calibre that replaces 2 or 3 calibres in use.

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## Ark_Angel

Zarvan said:


> Are there chances of negotiations being resumed after Corona or not ???


Project Halted pre-Corona. Other projects have taken a priority over Change of HandGun. It will take a while now.

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## GriffinsRule

Ark_Angel said:


> Project Halted pre-Corona. Other projects have taken a priority over Change of HandGun. It will take a while now.


Best to use this time to create a native solution

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## Affanakad0t.

433 pages of thread for nothing.

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## Gryphon

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Wese POF has tried to make make Ar10 and Ak103 knock offs. Let's see what comes out of it.



That was an AKMS knock-off and somehow POF put AK-103 label on it.

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## Zarvan

Gryphon said:


> That was an AKMS knock-off and somehow POF put AK-103 label on it.


That is not and if we are using the term AK 103 that means we would produce AK 103 with TOT.


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## Arsalan

ziaulislam said:


> as long as you can build it locally wihtout being sued and as a plus (optional) sell it outside does it really matter that it should be original design..
> we are not aiming for Nobel prize, are we..?


I hope our people will understand that.
However the do have one solid argument. A local design (while it may not earn you a Nobel Prize) will give you all of what you mentioned but at a lower $$ expenditure.

But hey, you know "army didn't wake one day and decide we need a gun, they have funds" argument still haunts me!!



Ark_Angel said:


> SCAR-H was selected. Eventually Negotiations halted over ToT. Belgians were rigid over no Re export clause from their end pre 200,000 Units. Project still on Hold.


Bro as many of us have tried to explain over the past few years, THERE IS MORE TO MILITARY PROCUREMENT than being the best in the trials! And it not just money you know. There are always so many factors at play that "xyz is final as it was the best rifle at trials" or "Maa qasam it is coming" are never wise arguments.

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## Zarvan



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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> View attachment 631162


Rifle howe te SCAR di howe. Haan Hazrat @Zarvan

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## mingle

Path-Finder said:


> Rifle howe te SCAR di howe. Haan Hazrat @Zarvan


@Zarvan tanks and artillery deals are done left behind attack Heli, Gunns and wheeled APC any news on these???

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## Zarvan




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## Armchair

I hope Pakistan instead manufactures a Pakistani IP rifle. Take the SCAR and make just enough changes to it to not hit IP problems. I think Daudsons can do this.

http://www.daudsons.com/store/c11/TRUSHOT™.html





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1254618504639016


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## Mumm-Ra

bhayio idr kuch bana ya phir na hi samjhay?


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## Armchair

The basic design philosophy may just be the best for PA.

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Rifle howe te SCAR di howe. Haan Hazrat @Zarvan


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## Amaa'n

Zarvan said:


> That is not and if we are using the term AK 103 that means we would produce AK 103 with TOT.


Show me how you reach the conclusion that it's an AK103 and not AKMS

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## Zarvan

Foxtrot Alpha said:


> Show me how you reach the conclusion that it's an AK103 and not AKMS


Pakistan won't be calling a GUN AK 103 when it's not specially when our relationship with Russia is growing at very fast pace prime example of that is we bought PANTSIR @PanzerKiel


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## PanzerKiel

Zarvan said:


> Pakistan won't be calling a GUN AK 103 when it's not specially when our relationship with Russia is growing at very fast pace prime example of that is we bought PANTSIR @PanzerKiel




A very limited number of Pantsir are no guarantee for a good relationship. Howeve , they can be an indicator of a relationship whose forging is in progress.

I think we ought to wait for our new battle rifle, priority seems towards other heavy weapons which are important for our conventional power projection and deterrence.

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## Zarvan

PanzerKiel said:


> A very limited number of Pantsir are no guarantee for a good relationship. Howeve , they can be an indicator of a relationship whose forging is in progress.
> 
> I think we ought to wait for our new battle rifle, priority seems towards other heavy weapons which are important for our conventional power projection and deterrence.


Pantsir is one thing we also bought MI 35 and I know about one Anti Tank system also and yes we are not buddies but our relationship is growing at fast pace


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## PanzerKiel

Zarvan said:


> Pantsir is one thing we also bought MI 35 and I know about one Anti Tank system also and yes we are not buddies but our relationship is growing at fast pace



Four MI 35 and Kornets..... As you say, still not buddies though.

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## Amaa'n

Zarvan said:


> Pakistan won't be calling a GUN AK 103 when it's not specially when our relationship with Russia is growing at very fast pace prime example of that is we bought PANTSIR @PanzerKiel


we call Type 56 an Es Em Gee too, that doesn't make an Assault Rifle an smg...kindly provide the reference that led you to believe it is an AK103

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## PanzerKiel

Foxtrot Alpha said:


> we call Type 56 an Es Em Gee too, that doesn't make an Assault Rifle an smg



Yeh kia kahani hai?

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## Amaa'n

PanzerKiel said:


> Yeh kia kahani hai?


@Zarvan says that the weapon displayed by pof last year is AK103 because pof claims it to an ak103 however am of view & others agree that it is not an AK103 but in fact AKM with polymer furniture....i have already backed up my claim with observations from photos and now asking Zarvan to refute those based on technical grounds

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## PanzerKiel

Foxtrot Alpha said:


> @Zarvan says that the weapon displayed by pof last year is AK103 because pof claims it to an ak103 however am of view & others agree that it is not an AK103 but in fact AKM with polymer furniture....i have already backed up my claim with observations from photos and now asking Zarvan to refute those based on technical grounds



In my opinion, I believe POF made a jumble of AK-103 and AKM, and named it something else. God knows its quality, because Type-56-II made by POF, it vomits everywhere after maybe 2 mags of continuous fire.

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## Zarvan

PanzerKiel said:


> In my opinion, I believe POF made a jumble of AK-103 and AKM, and named it something else. God knows its quality, because Type-56-II made by POF, it vomits everywhere after maybe 2 mags of continuous fire.


I also heard same about Type 56 that is I really think Pakistan should produce two Rifle series which were tested in Pakistan. Either SCAR or BREN or Bren or Berreta or AK 200 series. If we can buy 10 Frigates and Corvettes and 8 Submarines and 300 VT 4 Tanks and PANTSIR surely we can buy Assault Rifles for our Armed Forces

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## Affanakad0t.

Zarvan said:


> Pantsir is one thing we also bought MI 35 and I know about one Anti Tank system also and yes we are not buddies but our relationship is growing at fast pace


Mi 35 were bought from 3rd party? And they were 2nd hand? Kindly correct if i am wrong.


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## Zarvan

Affanakad0t. said:


> Mi 35 were bought from 3rd party? And they were 2nd hand? Kindly correct if i am wrong.


No MI 35 were bought directly from Russia. They were not 2nd hand. First 4 which were ordered delivered and 5 more are on order.


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## fatman17

Zarvan said:


> No MI 35 were bought directly from Russia. They were not 2nd hand. First 4 which were ordered delivered and 5 more are on order.


They were used Russian machines, were upgraded and that's the reason the delivery period was long.

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## Zulfiqar

PanzerKiel said:


> In my opinion, I believe POF made a jumble of AK-103 and AKM, and named it something else. God knows its quality, because Type-56-II made by POF, it vomits everywhere after maybe 2 mags of continuous fire.




Do you still have that tango captured butt stock or gave it away after rotation from waziristan/FATA.

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## PanzerKiel

Zulfiqar said:


> Do you still have that tango captured butt stock or gave it away after rotation from waziristan/FATA.




Gosh.... I don't believe it that you still remember it....

During rotation, I had to disassemble the SMG and hand over in its original form... A good memory, that customized SMG remained with me through tough times....

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## Zarvan

PanzerKiel said:


> Gosh.... I don't believe it that you still remember it....
> 
> During rotation, I had to disassemble the SMG and hand over in its original form... A good memory, that customized SMG remained with me through tough times....








Painful Story @Foxtrot Alpha and @BHarwana Can you please close this thread. There is no point of keeping this thread open.

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## JPMM

BREN2 in 5.56mm is allready in service by Portuguese Air Force SOF Teams, today news.
Shown in a Mali landing C295

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## Path-Finder

JPMM said:


> BREN2 in 5.56mm is allready in service by Portuguese Air Force SOF Teams, today news.
> Shown in a Mali landing C295
> View attachment 633030


Nice .

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Nice .



















New standard assault rifle of #Japan

Type-20

5.56*45 , this along with H&K VP9 service pistol to enter services with them.
150000 to be supplied in 30 years, price per peace is said to be 2600 USD.
3000 rifles will be supplied this year. Their ARDB to be first user.


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## Ahmet Pasha

Tomato
Tomaaato


Foxtrot Alpha said:


> @Zarvan says that the weapon displayed by pof last year is AK103 because pof claims it to an ak103 however am of view & others agree that it is not an AK103 but in fact AKM with polymer furniture....i have already backed up my claim with observations from photos and now asking Zarvan to refute those based on technical grounds



Scar kardi me apey Scar hoi



Zarvan said:


> View attachment 632588
> 
> Painful Story @Foxtrot Alpha and @BHarwana Can you please close this thread. There is no point of keeping this thread open.


@Zarvan you love her enough to let her go??



Zarvan said:


> View attachment 633263
> 
> View attachment 633264
> 
> View attachment 633265
> 
> View attachment 633266
> 
> New standard assault rifle of #Japan
> 
> Type-20
> 
> 5.56*45 , this along with H&K VP9 service pistol to enter services with them.
> 150000 to be supplied in 30 years, price per peace is said to be 2600 USD.
> 3000 rifles will be supplied this year. Their ARDB to be first user.


HK433??


----------



## Zarvan

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Tomato
> Tomaaato
> 
> 
> Scar kardi me apey Scar hoi
> 
> 
> @Zarvan you love her enough to let her go??
> 
> 
> HK433??


Not HK 433 but made in Japan


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## Path-Finder

Hazrat @Zarvan can you go on his channel and post here the videos from Pakistan! Thank You.

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat @Zarvan can you go on his channel and post here the videos from Pakistan! Thank You.


Which channel are you talking about ???


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Which channel are you talking about ???


the video channel!


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> the video channel!


He hardly has any video from Pakistan


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> He hardly has any video from Pakistan


Hazrat @Zarvan apni akhan check karvao.

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## Amaa'n

Smart Rifle & a good replacement for our Type 56?

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## Amaa'n

Zarvan said:


> He hardly has any video from Pakistan









Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat @Zarvan apni akhan check karvao.


i saw only ARX & AK103 vids

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## Path-Finder

Foxtrot Alpha said:


> i saw only ARX & AK103 vids


I was hoping to steer our qibla to it but you done it.


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## bananarepublic

Foxtrot Alpha said:


> Smart Rifle & a good replacement for our Type 56?


Those are more or less 81s and a substitute to 97s and were given to soldiers that would make the most out of conventional desgins


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## Armchair

PanzerKiel said:


> Gosh.... I don't believe it that you still remember it....
> 
> During rotation, I had to disassemble the SMG and hand over in its original form... A good memory, that customized SMG remained with me through tough times....


I remember it, looked a mess but functional. folding butt stock on type 56 with forward grip.

I am rooting for 6.8mm indigenous design from Daudsons. hope such a rifle materialises

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## PanzerKiel

Armchair said:


> I remember it, looked a mess but functional. folding butt stock on type 56 with forward grip.
> 
> I am rooting for 6.8mm indigenous design from Daudsons. hope such a rifle materialises



Cmo , don't call it a mess .... It worked effectively so don't call it a mess.

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## Armchair

PanzerKiel said:


> Cmo , don't call it a mess .... It worked effectively so don't call it a mess.



ok. some goras made fun of it on twitter. a killing machine dont need to win a beauty contest

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## PanzerKiel

Armchair said:


> ok. some goras made fun of it



Really, don't know about that. They are entitled to their opinion. Visibly, it could have seen a mess, but it's muzzle is credited with silencing many.

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## Armchair

an insightful video that highlights tradeoffs in rifle construction. 80-20 solution. casting vs milled vs stamped. simplified designs.


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## bananarepublic

PanzerKiel said:


> Really, don't know about that. They are entitled to their opinion. Visibly, it could have seen a mess, but it's muzzle is credited with silencing many.



Thats seems interesting, would love to see pictures if you have any


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## PanzerKiel

bananarepublic said:


> Thats seems interesting, would love to see pictures if you have any

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## bananarepublic

PanzerKiel said:


> View attachment 635714
> View attachment 635715



Thank you for showing
Wired buttstock but the front, both a bayonet lug and a underfold?

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## PanzerKiel

bananarepublic said:


> Thank you for showing
> Wired buttstock but the front, both a bayonet lug and a underfold?



It was originally a Type 56 SMG which normally has a folded bayonet. I removed the bayonet as well, but the lug remains.

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## Amaa'n

PanzerKiel said:


> It was originally a Type 56 SMG which normally has a folded bayonet. I removed the bayonet as well, but the lug remains.


nice rifle...i always found these to be very heavy, idk how troops use them in field day in day out...I was looking for this Gas tube with Rail to have sleak design & slim profile while keeping the weight on low but couldn't find in local market. Something POF should look into* IF* they are not looking in the option of Rail type Dust cover .





few snaps from one of my range days not too long ago or may be lonnnnggg ago...heaviest one was with ACOG & torch

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## PanzerKiel

Foxtrot Alpha said:


> nice rifle...i always found these to be very heavy, idk how troops use them in field day in day out...I was looking for this Gas tube with Rail to have sleak design & slim profile while keeping the weight on low but couldn't find in local market. Something POF should look into* IF* they are not looking in the option of Rail type Dust cover .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> few snaps from one of my range days not too long ago or may be lonnnnggg ago...heaviest one was with ACOG & torch
> 
> 
> View attachment 635732
> View attachment 635733
> View attachment 635734
> View attachment 635735



They are heavy, but their metallurgy is awesome....you keep firing all day, no hiccups, no effect on accuracy due t prolonged firing.....

But Type 56-II really sucks....starts to give away after couple of mags.

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## Amaa'n

PanzerKiel said:


> They are heavy, but their metallurgy is awesome....you keep firing all day, no hiccups, no effect on accuracy due t prolonged firing.....
> 
> But Type 56-II really sucks....starts to give away after couple of mags.


I was informed that these Type 56-ii were coming to field after some work being done on them at POF?


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## PanzerKiel

Foxtrot Alpha said:


> I was informed that these Type 56-ii were coming to field after some work being done on them at POF?



Bhai jitna bhi ker lein, once should not expect them to change the barrels of ALL of them...so it will remain the same....

No problem with the weapon, but somehow we Pakistani always try to save money everywhere, at the cost of quality.

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## ali_raza

PanzerKiel said:


> Bhai jitna bhi ker lein, once should not expect them to change the barrels of ALL of them...so it will remain the same....
> 
> No problem with the weapon, but somehow we Pakistani always try to save money everywhere, at the cost of quality.


the thing i never understand is why dont we have our own AK varient
it is being produced in the whole world 
and we r quite honestly experts in ak stuff.
we can use g3 metallurgy 
wht u think

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## Armchair

ali_raza said:


> the thing i never understand is why dont we have our own AK varient
> it is being produced in the whole world
> and we r quite honestly experts in ak stuff.
> we can use g3 metallurgy
> wht u think



Because POF is a shitty organization and cannot do anything without gora handholding. Sad but true. That these dinosaurs continue to get employed with a lifetime of a comfortable salary and benefits is a shame and misuse of tax money. 

Most of Pak defense organizations are marginally better. What is needed is to get them reorganized, fire people left and right and set up a merit based organization to run them. Allow private partners a bigger hand. Efficiency over nepotism. 

This has to stop if Pakistan is to survive in the long term against India. This really cannot go on like this anymore.

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## ali_raza

Armchair said:


> Because POF is a shitty organization and cannot do anything without gora handholding. Sad but true. That these dinosaurs continue to get employed with a lifetime of a comfortable salary and benefits is a shame and misuse of tax money.
> 
> Most of Pak defense organizations are marginally better. What is needed is to get them reorganized, fire people left and right and set up a merit based organization to run them. Allow private partners a bigger hand. Efficiency over nepotism.
> 
> This has to stop if Pakistan is to survive in the long term against India. This really cannot go on like this anymore.


i must say those dara guys have much more balls and people worldwide appreciate there work

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## Armchair

ali_raza said:


> i must say those dara guys have much more balls and people worldwide appreciate there work



Just need to set up quality steel supply and heat treatment. When you combine that you get something like the Daudsons. back in 2003 I used to study under / work for Late Dr. Zafar Altaf the former Secretary of Agriculture, and he used to tell me that Pak can be competitive in the international arms market if the traditional arms manufacturers are supported with some technical expertise. 

Instead of that, we have dumbos eating tax payer money at POF making a mockery of Pakistan's strategic needs.

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## Invictus.inc

Armchair said:


> Just need to set up quality steel supply and heat treatment. When you combine that you get something like the Daudsons. back in 2003 I used to study under / work for Late Dr. Zafar Altaf the former Secretary of Agriculture, and he used to tell me that Pak can be competitive in the international arms market if the traditional arms manufacturers are supported with some technical expertise.
> 
> Instead of that, we have dumbos eating tax payer money at POF making a mockery of Pakistan's strategic needs.


You keep on mentioning daudson as if they are a leader in local gun manufacturing
These guys make shitty firearms that are hardly at par with international standards & quality
Moonstar & royal arms make better guns
However I do agree
We need to bring local manufacturers into R&D give them considerable subsidy to come up with rifle that can be adopted in numbers
I'm sure they'll get you a reliably cycling gun if the right tooling & material is provided to them

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## Armchair

Invictus.inc said:


> You keep on mentioning daudson as if they are a leader in local gun manufacturing
> These guys make shitty firearms that are hardly at par with international standards & quality
> Moonstar & royal arms make better guns
> However I do agree
> We need to bring local manufacturers into R&D give them considerable subsidy to come up with rifle that can be adopted in numbers
> I'm sure they'll get you a reliably cycling gun if the right tooling & material is provided to them



Let them compete. But at least get the process started. I'm sure you know better who is what than me. I just saw their Pak-40 



 and thought it was developed in a manner that showed a process-oriented approach. But again, I'm sure you have a better grounding on the realities. 

How are their fire arms shitty by the way? Asking to know out of curiousity not ill will.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Foxtrot Alpha said:


> Smart Rifle & a good replacement for our Type 56?


Couple of years back was at Tilla ranges, saw troops (Gen Tariqs escort) carrying similar “type series” weapons..

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## Zarvan



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## PanzerKiel

Zarvan said:


>



It was one of the weapons which performed well once PA was doing trials.

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## Zarvan

PanzerKiel said:


> It was one of the weapons which performed well once PA was doing trials.


Sir please don't say these things, kind of heart breaking. For three long years we tested best Assault Rifles from all around world but not even one selected, and we are still stuck with 60 years old G3 and 70 year old AK 47.

@Path-Finder

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## PanzerKiel

Zarvan said:


> Sir please don't say these things, kind of heart breaking. For three long we tested best Assault Rifles from the world but nothing selected and we are still stuck with 60 years old G3 and 70 year old AK 47.
> 
> @Path-Finder



Bhai, please dont forget our 78 year old MG1A3 (MG-42 from 1942)



Zarvan said:


> Sir please don't say these things, kind of heart breaking. For three long we tested best Assault Rifles from the world but nothing selected and we are still stuck with 60 years old G3 and 70 year old AK 47.
> 
> @Path-Finder



Waisay i am willing to wait a bit more for SCAR H......

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## YeBeWarned

PanzerKiel said:


> Waisay i am willing to wait a bit more for SCAR H......



I think SCRA was out-performed by CZ BERN ? why wait for it, I doubt it will be coming except some for SF units might consider it, but they are already equipped with M4A1 and Type 52's .

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## PanzerKiel

Starlord said:


> I think SCRA was out-performed by CZ BERN ? why wait for it, I doubt it will be coming except some for SF units might consider it, but they are already equipped with M4A1 and Type 52's .



Wait matlab k jahan itna wait kia hai for a new rifle, lets wait a bit more.

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## Psychic

PanzerKiel said:


> They are heavy, but their metallurgy is awesome....you keep firing all day, no hiccups, no effect on accuracy due t prolonged firing.....
> 
> But Type 56-II really sucks....starts to give away after couple of mags.


What was the need for type56-II if type56 worked fine? Or was paucity in numbers(SMG) the reason to order type56-II?

G3 is also being used. Why are two types of rifles in use? Wouldn't it be better to use single type or single caliber ? 

There was another rifle of 223 caliber made by POF which looked similar to G3 and was supposed to replace it? What happened to that project?

Some questions because I am naturally a curious person.

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## PanzerKiel

Psychic said:


> What was the need for type56-II if type56 worked fine? Or was paucity in numbers(SMG) the reason to order type56-II?



Type 56 are in small numbers. They were then complemented by Type 56-II.



Psychic said:


> G3 is also being used. Why are two types of rifles in use? Wouldn't it be better to use single type or single caliber ?



One is a battle rifle (G3), other is an assault rifle....different roles, different mechanisms, different uses, they actually complement each other very well.....like a relationship of ESHORAD, LOMAD and HIMAD.



Psychic said:


> There was another rifle of 223 caliber made by POF which looked similar to G3 and was supposed to replace it? What happened to that project?



Not for PA use.

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## YeBeWarned

PanzerKiel said:


> Wait matlab k jahan itna wait kia hai for a new rifle, lets wait a bit more.



Well I am not a expert on guns as I never hold or Fire a Real gun in my life, but If you said so

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## PanzerKiel

Psychic said:


> Some questions because I am naturally a curious person.



Excellent and uncommon quality, the one with which one learns alot.

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## El Observer

PanzerKiel said:


> Bhai, please dont forget our 78 year old MG1A3 (MG-42 from 1942)


Isn't MG3 derived from MG42 and improved over old design. Many still use it around the world as GP machine gun. It still works exceptionally well in good hands.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it is the reason it hasn't seen much improvement as it is already well engineered.

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## PanzerKiel

El Observer said:


> Isn't MG3 derived from MG42 and improved over old design. Many still use it around the world as GP machine gun. It still works exceptionally well in good hands.
> If it ain't broke, don't fix it is the reason it hasn't seen much improvement as it is already well engineered.



You are right. But then G3 has also improved from its initial design. That why all these weapons are still in use today.

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## Psychic

PanzerKiel said:


> One is a battle rifle (G3), other is an assault rifle....different roles, different mechanisms, different uses, they actually complement each other very well.....like a relationship of ESHORAD, LOMAD and HIMAD.


That is understandable. 

However, that is not the trend in many armed forces . For example US military uses m4, m16 and minimi; only m240 is of different caliber. Furthermore, what crossed my mind was the presence of different calibers complexifying logistics and tactics. That came to my mind from reading US field manuals which thankfully are free to download.



PanzerKiel said:


> Excellent and uncommon quality, the one with which one learns alot.


Thanks for the response, many members including myself are learning a lot from your contributions to pdf; that helps us improve our knowledge base as well.

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## PanzerKiel

Psychic said:


> That is understandable.
> 
> However, that is not the trend in many armed forces . For example US military uses m4, m16 and minimi; only m240 is of different caliber. Furthermore, what crossed my mind was the presence of different calibers complexifying logistics and tactics. That came to my mind from reading US field manuals which thankfully are free to download.



Strictly speaking, both are 7.62....which shows our emphasis on a heavy bullet able to inflict massive damage...

one of my SSG mates, he lost an eye due to 5.56...he had M4.....a firefight had just ended, all the enemy dead were hit by SSG's M4.....suddenly one of the guys (despite getting about 4 shots in his torso), in his dying throes, managed to let loose a shot towards my mate who detected him at the same time.....both fired at the same time, my mate lost his eye, the other lost his life finally.....

7.62 has advantages, it packs a massive punch......good for strong defence.



Psychic said:


> Thanks for the response, many members including myself are learning a lot from your contributions to pdf; that helps us improve our knowledge base as well.



Shukriya, i always feel honored. Knowledge is best used if it is spread.

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## Zarvan

PanzerKiel said:


> Strictly speaking, both are 7.62....which shows our emphasis on a heavy bullet able to inflict massive damage...
> 
> one of my SSG mates, he lost an eye due to 5.56...he had M4.....a firefight had just ended, all the enemy dead were hit by SSG's M4.....suddenly one of the guys (despite getting about 4 shots in his torso), in his dying throes, managed to let loose a shot towards my mate who detected him at the same time.....both fired at the same time, my mate lost his eye, the other lost his life finally.....
> 
> 7.62 has advantages, it packs a massive punch......good for strong defence.
> 
> 
> 
> Shukriya, i always feel honored. Knowledge is best used if it is spread.








Indians are really enjoying it

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## bananarepublic

PanzerKiel said:


> You are right. But then G3 has also improved from its initial design. That why all these weapons are still in use today.



Wasn't the G-3 a direct improvement on the STG-45 roller-delayed blowback desgin. H&K later on made further development on it.
Its a bit disappointing that small arms development isn't being taken seriously. There are plenty of people in Pakistan who could make wonderful designs depends on the gov and army to start the initiative.
You could easily develop a short-stroke piston rifle, copy and modify for Pakistan's need

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> View attachment 639172
> 
> Indians are really enjoying it


Pakistan should scrap the buying of SCAR and BREN. Indigenous is the correct approach But we must look at the development in US army going for a new calibre which means NATO will without doubt go for a new calibre as well. 

That menas instead of having 2 different 7.62 calibres it would be wise to go for a 6mm solution killing 2 birds with one stone. 








> The Army is working to switch from the 5.56 mm ammo to the 6.8 mm next generation squad weapon. This is a future weapons program that includes the MG 6.8mm which we've acquired some new animations to. They plan to pick a winner of the bid and finish the switch by 2023. Sig Sauer, Textron and General Dynamics are all still in the running.

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Pakistan should scrap the buying of SCAR and BREN. Indigenous is the correct approach But we must look at the development in US army going for a new calibre which means NATO will without doubt go for a new calibre as well.
> 
> That menas instead of having 2 different 7.62 calibres it would be wise to go for a 6mm solution killing 2 birds with one stone.


How about they buy SCAR and BREN series with TOT and design one AR style rifle series with help of Turkey and produce it.


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> How about they buy SCAR and BREN series with TOT and design one AR style rifle series with help of Turkey and produce it.


we keep going in circles Hazrat, 2 rifles for 2 calibres (SCAR/BREN). but one calibre to replace 2 calibres and one rifle instead of 2 rifles.

do you see the economics of it all. you are proposing 3 rifles!!! unnecessarily.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Zarvan said:


> How about they buy SCAR and BREN series with TOT and design one AR style rifle series with help of Turkey and produce it.





Path-Finder said:


> we keep going in circles Hazrat, 2 rifles for 2 calibres (SCAR/BREN). but one calibre to replace 2 calibres and one rifle instead of 2 rifles.
> 
> do you see the economics of it all. you are proposing 3 rifles!!! unnecessarily.



How about we pay CZ to design a custom 6.8 mm rifle (BREN 6.8?), and transfer all of its design, IP, etc to POF?

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## Path-Finder

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> How about we pay CZ to design a custom 6.8 mm rifle (BREN 6.8?), and transfer all of its design, IP, etc to POF?
> 
> View attachment 639380


Great Idea. 
what about asking FN to make SCAR in 6.8, need to keep our Hazrat happy!

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## Bilal.

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> How about we pay CZ to design a custom 6.8 mm rifle (BREN 6.8?), and transfer all of its design, IP, etc to POF?
> 
> View attachment 639380



You literally need to hire/poach couple of designers from there about and the task can be accomplished within a year for much less.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Bilal. said:


> You literally need to hire/poach couple of designers from there about and the task can be accomplished within a year for much less.


Yep, but I think CZ will do it if contracted to do so. The hang-up with their original BREN offer was that they didn't want POF to sell the rifles to third-parties. But if we foot the bill for a design that doesn't directly compete with any of their offerings (i.e., a 6.8 mm rifle), then there's no issue I think. CZ gets money, and some expertise on 6.8 mm rifles along the way (plus other knowledge, such as how to deal with our climate/conditions, etc).

POF can assemble the rifles, but subcontract all of the parts manufacturing work to local private sector companies (polymer, grip, rail, etc). I'm sure Sialkot will jump at the task.

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## Bilal.

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Yep, but I think CZ will do it if contracted to do so. The hang-up with their original BREN offer was that they didn't want POF to sell the rifles to third-parties. But if we foot the bill for a design that doesn't directly compete with any of their offerings (i.e., a 6.8 mm rifle), then there's no issue I think. CZ gets money, and some expertise on 6.8 mm rifles along the way (plus other knowledge, such as how to deal with our climate/conditions, etc).
> 
> On our end, POF can assemble the rifles, but subcontract all of the manufacturing work to local private sector companies (polymer, grip, rail, etc). We can slowly trim POF's overhead, but also give the private a jolt.



Either way I think we need to wait and see which ammunition version is selected to make the call.

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> we keep going in circles Hazrat, 2 rifles for 2 calibres (SCAR/BREN). but one calibre to replace 2 calibres and one rifle instead of 2 rifles.
> 
> do you see the economics of it all. you are proposing 3 rifles!!! unnecessarily.


We also have Police plus we can export. Also producing two Rifle series will give you experience and latest technology and than you need to use brain and produce AR style rifles with help of Turkey. Also handguns

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> We also have Police plus we can export. Also producing two Rifle series will give you experience and latest technology and than you need to use brain and produce AR style rifles with help of Turkey. Also handguns


why cant police use the same rifle as military? there is a reason why globally rifles for both military and law enforcement is one category! civilian version is something that stands away from those used by both military and law enforcement!

Hazrat for 4 years we have tried our uttmost and level best but you just cant let go of something that we must obtain 3 or 4 different rifles when we need only one. even if we were economically stable the materials and manufacturing cost to make more than one rifle would be absolute economic suicide!


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## Ahmet Pasha

And sell POF in the process. Cuz they will be made totally redundant. They already kinda are. But atleast they make an effort unlike HIT



Path-Finder said:


> why cant police use the same rifle as military? there is a reason why globally rifles for both military and law enforcement is one category! civilian version is something that stands away from those used by both military and law enforcement!
> 
> Hazrat for 4 years we have tried our uttmost and level best but you just cant let go of something that we must obtain 3 or 4 different rifles when we need only one. even if we were economically stable the materials and manufacturing cost to make more than one rifle would be absolute economic suicide!


IMHO police should only use pistol caliber SMGs or pdws. Rifles should be reserved for SWAT or tactical teams.

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## SurvivoR

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Yep, but I think CZ will do it if contracted to do so. The hang-up with their original BREN offer was that they didn't want POF to sell the rifles to third-parties. But if we foot the bill for a design that doesn't directly compete with any of their offerings (i.e., a 6.8 mm rifle), then there's no issue I think. CZ gets money, and some expertise on 6.8 mm rifles along the way (plus other knowledge, such as how to deal with our climate/conditions, etc).
> 
> POF can assemble the rifles, but subcontract all of the parts manufacturing work to local private sector companies (polymer, grip, rail, etc). I'm sure Sialkot will jump at the task.


How long would that take hypothetically speaking this does become a reality which I sincerely hope it does. 6.8 is the golden calibre IMHO.

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## Armchair

Korean M-4 / AK-47 hybrid.

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## pzfz

US army hasn't decided on 6.8 or 6.5 yet. concept trials still to happen.

fn does offer a 6.5 creedmoor scar. 6.5 offers better range n penetration. main drawback is barrel life is shorter.



PanzerKiel said:


> one of my SSG mates, he lost an eye due to 5.56...he had M4.....a firefight had just ended, all the enemy dead were hit by SSG's M4.....suddenly one of the guys (despite getting about 4 shots in his torso), in his dying throes, managed to let loose a shot towards my mate who detected him at the same time.....both fired at the same time, my mate lost his eye, the other lost his life finally.....
> 
> 7.62 has advantages, it packs a massive punch......good for strong defence.



Do they not teach to finish off ur (assumed) kill at cherat? especially one hit in the torso...his eye is the fault of the operator(s) n not the weapon.



pzfz said:


> 6.5x49 (creedmoor) is what I've been saying all along. Too bad it greatly reduces the barrel life of a rifle. Not suitable for poor countries or countries with large armies. Excellent range and accuracy - better than the 7.62x51. None of them will have the stopping power of a 7.62x39 or 7.62x51. But way better than the 5.56. 6.5 creedmoor is good for 800 yds + which would bring in engagement issues as a normal soldier shouldn't even be shooting out that far without knowing/id'ing his/her target properly.
> 
> Pak is going to induct a generational platform in an old caliber while the developed world moves on to newer and better things.



Said this in another thread way back in 2017. good thing the trials went nowhere. you don't decide on such an expensive endeavor by choosing off the shelf rifles. you build around a caliber that meets your future generational requirements and go on from there. none of the current rifles offer a leap that must be transferred to the regular jawan. get a couple thousand of whichever rifle for special purposes and that's it.



pzfz said:


> 6.5 creedmoor travels faster, further, with less drift and more energy and penetration capabilities at target. It can also fit into an ar-15/assault rifle case. 7mm+ gets you into the battle rifle platform along with its associated weight issues...
> 
> 6.0/6.5mm are also being tested as caseless ammo, further reducing costs and weight...

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## PanzerKiel

pzfz said:


> US army hasn't decided on 6.8 or 6.5 yet. concept trials still to happen.
> 
> fn does offer a 6.5 creedmoor scar. 6.5 offers better range n penetration. main drawback is barrel life is shorter.
> 
> 
> 
> Do they not teach to finish off ur (assumed) kill at cherat? especially one hit in the torso...his eye is the fault of the operator(s) n not the weapon.
> 
> 
> 
> Said this in another thread way back in 2017. good thing the trials went nowhere. you don't decide on such an expensive endeavor by choosing off the shelf rifles. you build around a caliber that meets your future generational requirements and go on from there. none of the current rifles offer a leap that must be transferred to the regular jawan. get a couple thousand of whichever rifle for special purposes and that's it.



In an open firefight where enemy is dominating the ground around you, and then you have to climb up and clear a mountain top, you cannot go around confirming your kills.... One has to wait for the firefight to end..... This incident happened right once the fire fight ended...

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## Path-Finder

pzfz said:


> US army hasn't decided on 6.8 or 6.5 yet. concept trials still to happen.


are you sure?


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## pzfz

Path-Finder said:


> are you sure?


upcoming concept trials r 6.8 but 6.5 weapon (s) r also be to be inducted. not decided if/when 6.5 caliber will also be tested.

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## CriticalThought

PanzerKiel said:


> Bhai, please dont forget our 78 year old MG1A3 (MG-42 from 1942)
> 
> 
> 
> Waisay i am willing to wait a bit more for SCAR H......



Damn, knowledge of the SCAR fiasco goes up to the General level!! @Zarvan you are a famous man!

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## Zarvan

PanzerKiel said:


> In an open firefight where enemy is dominating the ground around you, and then you have to climb up and clear a mountain top, you cannot go around confirming your kills.... One has to wait for the firefight to end..... This incident happened right once the fire fight ended...


Sir are you a General rank ????



CriticalThought said:


> Damn, knowledge of the SCAR fiasco goes up to the General level!! @Zarvan you are a famous man!


I was supporting SCAR because of the information I had. SCAR outclassed every other Rifle. It was the mud test where SCAR only faced issues other wise it was really good. That is why I keep saying if we are buying Tanks and Artillery and other stuff we should also get best Assault Rifle series in fact two Assault Rifle series and produce them in Pakistan.

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## CriticalThought

Zarvan said:


> Sir are you a General rank ????
> 
> 
> I was supporting SCAR because of the information I had. SCAR outclassed every other Rifle. It was the mud test where SCAR only faced issues other wise it was really good. That is why I keep saying if we are buying Tanks and Artillery and other stuff we should also get best Assault Rifle series in fact two Assault Rifle series and produce them in Pakistan.



Oh Bhai I am simply teasing you. About getting two series or a single modified calibre, that is an involved discussion. Let's see what they come up with. The comment by panzerkiel about differences on selling the BREN was very insightful. Shows you the variety of issues that are involved in the final decision.

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## untitled

pzfz said:


> upcoming concept trials r 6.8 but 6.5 weapon (s) r also be to be inducted. not decided


Will NATO follow suit?


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## TsAr

Zarvan said:


> Sir are you a General rank ????
> 
> 
> I was supporting SCAR because of the information I had. SCAR outclassed every other Rifle. It was the mud test where SCAR only faced issues other wise it was really good. That is why I keep saying if we are buying Tanks and Artillery and other stuff we should also get best Assault Rifle series in fact two Assault Rifle series and produce them in Pakistan.


Major PanzerKiel

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## CriticalThought

Zarvan said:


> Sir are you a General rank ????





TsAr said:


> Major PanzerKiel



https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/does-balochistan-fc-lacks-ambush-training.653791/page-2#post-12223898


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## TsAr

CriticalThought said:


> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/does-balochistan-fc-lacks-ambush-training.653791/page-2#post-12223898


thats what I said his rank is major.....

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## Armchair

Instead of waiting for the US, Pak should decide on its own. In any case, Pak cannot follow the US as the US wants to make composite ammo which would need a different size of chambering. This isn't realistic for Pakistan.

Also, I absolutely hate the short sighted concept where someone comes and says "why don't Pakistan by x, y or z rifle and make it at home with an export licence"?

1. No rifle manufucturer worth his salt will do that except at an exhorbitant cost for a soon to be obsolete design. This is exactly the stumbling block Pak faced after the decade long time spent looking for the right rifle from goraland. A decade wasted.
2. You cannot be a true manufacturer of weapons by this method. R&D culture is the key to Pakistan's future development. That culture is the exact opposite of this mindset.
Building a simple thing like a rifle would help build that culture of constant effort, constant iteration, constant improvement not "let's get this from gora and let's tell them to give us a turn-key solution".

It's quite depressing to see this mindset not among the common laymen, but among people that consider themselves analysts and serious defense professionals.

It is the biggest sign of a mentally defeated people who cannot ever get up again until they change their mindset.

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## bananarepublic

Armchair said:


> Instead of waiting for the US, Pak should decide on its own. In any case, Pak cannot follow the US as the US wants to make composite ammo which would need a different size of chambering. This isn't realistic for Pakistan.
> 
> Also, I absolutely hate the short sighted concept where someone comes and says "why don't Pakistan by x, y or z rifle and make it at home with an export licence"?
> 
> 1. No rifle manufucturer worth his salt will do that except at an exhorbitant cost for a soon to be obsolete design
> 2. You cannot be a true manufacturer of weapons by this method. R&D culture is the key to Pakistan's future development. That culture is the exact opposite of this mindset.
> Building a simple thing like a rifle would help build that culture of constant effort, constant iteration, constant improvement not "let's get this from gor and let's tell them to give us a turn-key solution".
> 
> It's quite depressing to see this mindset not among the common laymen, but among people that consider themselves analysts and serious defense professionals.
> 
> It is the biggest sign of a mentally defeated people who cannot ever get up again until they change their mindset.



Pakistan should actually wait, the time is a blessing for us. It gives Pakistan plenty of time to upgrade POF ,while also involving OEMs to help us in local desgins and manufacturing.
Beefing up the private sector to absorb technology and give them a direction to desgin and produce weapons.
Till then the 6.5/6.8 will mature enough around the world to become a viable caliber to use.
Currently there is not hurry for a new gun our adversaries have it worse in small arms standardization and induction. A strong and long term commitment for a local arms industry will do wonders.

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## Armchair

bananarepublic said:


> Pakistan should actually wait, the time is a blessing for us. It gives Pakistan plenty of time to upgrade POF ,while also involving OEMs to help us in local desgins and manufacturing.
> Beefing up the private sector to absorb technology and give them a direction to desgin and produce weapons.
> Till then the 6.5/6.8 will mature enough around the world to become a viable caliber to use.
> Currently there is not hurry for a new gun our adversaries have it worse in small arms standardization and induction. A strong and long term commitment for a local arms industry will do wonders.



I would respectfully disagree. Pakistan should have started developing a gun 10 years ago. Waiting more is just - dumb. It takes years to mature a gun design - again, the complete lack of understanding R&D creates a mindset that doesn't allow Pakistan to progress.

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## bananarepublic

Armchair said:


> I would respectfully disagree. Pakistan should have started developing a gun 10 years ago. Waiting more is just - dumb. It takes years to mature a gun design - again, the complete lack of understanding R&D creates a mindset that doesn't allow Pakistan to progress.



That's what I am saying, 6.5/6.8 have huge potential but it will take time for it to become mature. We have had POF for decades yet they have become lazy, the process should start now in R&D. Small arms chambered in traditional ammo have matured significantly and we would need a huge catching up to do. Rather than catching up guns Chambered in traditional caliber i.e 556/762NATO/762×39 it would be rather beneficial to start R&D on the new cartridge.
divert funds to develop a gun in 6.5/6.8 and pakistan would gain a strong foothold in the future small arms industry .

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## Path-Finder

pzfz said:


> upcoming concept trials r 6.8 but 6.5 weapon (s) r also be to be inducted. not decided if/when 6.5 caliber will also be tested.


But the media info says 6.8x51 by Sig Sauer and their 2 weapons platforms have won the tender for th army!


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## Philip the Arab

Is modernizing the AKs in Pakistan's inventory possible even?


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## S10

Philip the Arab said:


> Is modernizing the AKs in Pakistan's inventory possible even?


Yes there are upgrade kits.

AK-47






Type 81


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## Path-Finder

Hazrat @Zarvan

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## Philip the Arab

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat @Zarvan


SCAR is basically just a reworked FAL. I personally think Pakistan should just hire its own designers like UAE did for Caracal rifles. These rifles are better than HK416 rifle because they are designed by the same people.

Chamber it in 5.56, and if need be you can change uppers to 6.8 if the US army changes.

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat @Zarvan


I have stopped thinking about it. Pakistan will buy latest Tanks and Artillery and attack helicopters and APC and everything else except for new Assault Rifles.

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## Inspector Spacetime

pzfz said:


> upcoming concept trials r 6.8 but 6.5 weapon (s) r also be to be inducted. not decided if/when 6.5 caliber will also be tested.


The contenders in the NGSW program all use a 6.8 calliber cartridge right? This seems to suggest that the US is getting ready to switch to 6.8.


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat @Zarvan


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


>


no, we don't use 5.45x39! I am saying scrap 5.56 and 7.62x39 and look at a 6mm solution like 6.5 Grendel or the new US NGSW 6.8 which is a 7.62x51 reworked!

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## pzfz

Inspector Spacetime said:


> The contenders in the NGSW program all use a 6.8 calliber cartridge right? This seems to suggest that the US is getting ready to switch to 6.8.


just like the contenders in the last recent competition didn't produce a lasting winner, this is more of a proof of concept. 6.5 is also the new marksmen caliber and there'll be talk of standardizing.

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> no, we don't use 5.45x39! I am saying scrap 5.56 and 7.62x39 and look at a 6mm solution like 6.5 Grendel or the new US NGSW 6.8 which is a 7.62x51 reworked!

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> View attachment 644453


??? Hazrat @Zarvan what is this? The bukhar of FN SCAR is still on! 5 year bukhar

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## DESERT FIGHTER



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## Mumm-Ra

Path-Finder said:


> ??? Hazrat @Zarvan what is this? The bukhar of FN SCAR is still on! 5 year bukhar



FN SCAR k janesar, 
Beshumar Beshumar


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## Path-Finder

Mumm-Ra said:


> FN SCAR k janesar,
> Beshumar Beshumar


5th anniversary in July!


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## Mumm-Ra

Path-Finder said:


> 5th anniversary in July!



SCAR basically Katrina Kaif hai...milni tou kabi nae Pr bnda khwahish tou kr skta hai na

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## CrazyZ

Path-Finder said:


> no, we don't use 5.45x39! I am saying scrap 5.56 and 7.62x39 and look at a 6mm solution like 6.5 Grendel or the new US NGSW 6.8 which is a 7.62x51 reworked!


Smaller bullets (5.45 & 5.56) struggle against modern body armor. PA should stick with 7.62x39 and 7.62x51. For 7.62x39, a modernized AK variant would be great. For the 7.62x51, a modernized AR variant would be great. No need to reinvent the wheel.

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## Zarvan

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> View attachment 644672
> View attachment 644673
> View attachment 644674


Do you have latest pictures of this project.



CrazyZ said:


> Smaller bullets (5.45 & 5.56) struggle against modern body armor. PA should stick with 7.62x39 and 7.62x51. For 7.62x39, a modernized AK variant would be great. For the 7.62x51, a modernized AR variant would be great. No need to reinvent the wheel.


7.62 X 51 and 7.62 X 39 was always the plan. There were two tenders, one was for to replace G3 with a new 7.62 X 51 caliber gun and other was to replace Type 56 with a new 7.62 X 39 caliber gun.

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## Armchair

bananarepublic said:


> That's what I am saying, 6.5/6.8 have huge potential but it will take time for it to become mature. We have had POF for decades yet they have become lazy, the process should start now in R&D. Small arms chambered in traditional ammo have matured significantly and we would need a huge catching up to do. Rather than catching up guns Chambered in traditional caliber i.e 556/762NATO/762×39 it would be rather beneficial to start R&D on the new cartridge.
> divert funds to develop a gun in 6.5/6.8 and pakistan would gain a strong foothold in the future small arms industry .



I dream of a Pakistan that is brave and independent enough to choose its own small arms calibre and to design its own small arms. I don't know if I will live long enough to see this dream come true.

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## Zarvan

Armchair said:


> I dream of a Pakistan that is brave and independent enough to choose its own small arms calibre and to design its own small arms. I don't know if I will live long enough to see this dream come true.


I am also waiting for more than. If Pakistan gets oil and gold and other reserves discovered and Pakistan earns 555 Billion Dollars per year from them and 55 Billion dollar is added to defence trust me Pakistan will still stick to crap G3 and Type 56


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## Armchair

Zarvan said:


> I am also waiting for more than. If Pakistan gets oil and gold and other reserves discovered and Pakistan earns 555 Billion Dollars per year from them and 55 Billion dollar is added to defence trust me Pakistan will still stick to crap G3 and Type 56



None of this is needed. What is needed is self respect and self belief, which are missing. See Israel, Singapore, UAE, South Korea, Taiwan, small european countries, tiny countries that make their own gun designs.

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## Path-Finder

CrazyZ said:


> Smaller bullets (5.45 & 5.56) struggle against modern body armor. PA should stick with 7.62x39 and 7.62x51. For 7.62x39, a modernized AK variant would be great. For the 7.62x51, a modernized AR variant would be great. No need to reinvent the wheel.


why not have a 6mm cartridge and do away with 7.62x39 and 556? The new NGSW is a 7.62x51 reworked to 6.8! So the productions cost and unnecessary logistics for 3 types of munition ends!


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## CrazyZ

Armchair said:


> None of this is needed. What is needed is self respect and self belief, which are missing. See Israel, Singapore, UAE, South Korea, Taiwan, small european countries, tiny countries that make their own gun designs.


R&D money has to be efficiently allocated. Why waste R&D resources on generic small arms. The Galil, SAR80, K2, HK 416 are all platforms based on the AR or AK anyways. Pakistan should allocate R&D resources to items that are not readily available on the international arms market. Project AZM and nuclear capable SSM's are higher priorities for R&D resource allocation. These are not items readily available to us on the international arms market. There is 10 million global companies willing to sell us small arms with tech transfer. Pride can be foolish sometimes.

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> why not have a 6mm cartridge and do away with 7.62x39 and 556? The new NGSW is a 7.62x51 reworked to 6.8! So the productions cost and unnecessary logistics for 3 types of munition ends!









CrazyZ said:


> R&D money has to be efficiently allocated. Why waste R&D resources on generic small arms. The Galil, SAR80, K2, HK 416 are all platforms based on the AR or AK anyways. Pakistan should allocate R&D resources to items that are not readily available on the international arms market. Project AZM and nuclear capable SSM's are higher priorities for R&D resource allocation. These are not items readily available to us on the international arms market. There is 10 million global companies willing to sell us small arms with tech transfer. Pride can be foolish sometimes.


Sir issue is we tested several Guns few passed tests but we never made the deal. It has been 5 years now.


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Sir issue is we tested several Guns few passed tests but we never made the deal. It has been 5 years now.


Hazrat we know you adore the DCAR!

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat we know you adore the DCAR!


Right now I am totally fed up so I would be happy if we go for BREN or Berreta series but we should select one and go for it and than design one AR based Rifle series with Turkey's help or just take their Rifles revisit the issues they faced in our trials address those issues and than produce Turkish Assault rifles also

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## Readerdefence

Zarvan said:


> Right now I am totally fed up so I would be happy if we go for BREN or Berreta series but we should select one and go for it and than design one AR based Rifle series with Turkey's help or just take their Rifles revisit the issues they faced in our trials address those issues and than produce Turkish Assault rifles also


Hi in the end as you said yourself will end up in G3 or may be... some Chinese rifle any info on the Chinese rifles 
Thank you


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## denel

Armchair said:


> None of this is needed. What is needed is self respect and self belief, which are missing. See Israel, Singapore, UAE, South Korea, Taiwan, small european countries, tiny countries that make their own gun designs.


I concur; it is complete b/s going elsewhere. If POC which has been building licenced design has no group of specialists who can put something together as a best of breed. To see you have to go outside for a design is a travesty.

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## blain2

Han ji! My routine check-up on the thread. 416 pages later, what has the Army decided on?

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## PanzerKiel

India’s Para (Special Forces) to get new Assault Rifles from the United States for Jungle Warfare

Indian Army has placed orders for 1000+ for FN SCAR-H STD 7.62x51mm NATO/.308 Win caliber assault rifle from Belgian firearms company FN Herstal which has a manufacturing unit in the United States for Para (Special Forces) under Foreign Military Sales (FMS) program with the US administration. FN SCAR-H assault rifle was developed by FN Herstal for United States Special Operations Command and is known as Special forces go to assault rifle which is very effective against in Jungle War conditions. FN SCAR-H can fire all types of 7.62mm ammunition and are made of special polymers and aluminum which makes the guns incredibly light with features like foldable buttstock and can be equipped with the FN40GL 40mm grenade launcher.

http://idrw.org/indias-para-special...es-from-the-united-states-for-jungle-warfare/


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## _NOBODY_

@PanzerKiel How well did Beretta ARX-200 fair against Scar-H and CZ Bren 2?

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## PanzerKiel

_NOBODY_ said:


> @PanzerKiel How well did Beretta ARX-200 fair against Scar-H and CZ Bren 2?



Overall, SCAR didnt do that well.....but was relatively better than the rest of them......MPT however proved to be the best under all circumstances.

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## YeBeWarned

PanzerKiel said:


> Overall, SCAR didnt do that well.....but was relatively better than the rest of them......MPT however proved to be the best under all circumstances.



I wonder if there is any place in Pakistan where you can go and practice some shooting in a fully safe environment .. I never hold or fire a real gun but since been part of a defense forum i kinda become enthusiast about to try firing a gun but of course away from Civilians and in a fully protective atmosphere .

Oh and I must say that your presence on this forum gives a new life to PDF .. I loved your writing on the thread where you and Joe were talking about the details of War of 48, 65 , 71 and 1999 ..

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## Zarvan

PanzerKiel said:


> Overall, SCAR didnt do that well.....but was relatively better than the rest of them......MPT however proved to be the best under all circumstances.


You mean Turkish Gun ???

@PanzerKiel Sir to be crystal clear you are talking about this Rifle ???








@Path-Finder This is some seriously shocking news.

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## PanzerKiel

Starlord said:


> I wonder if there is any place in Pakistan where you can go and practice some shooting in a fully safe environment .. I never hold or fire a real gun but since been part of a defense forum i kinda become enthusiast about to try firing a gun but of course away from Civilians and in a fully protective atmosphere .



There


Zarvan said:


> You mean Turkish Gun ???
> 
> @PanzerKiel Sir to be crystal clear you are talking about this Rifle ???
> View attachment 646506
> View attachment 646507
> 
> @Path-Finder This is some seriously shocking news.


Exactly.

What i am saying is from the point of view of field trials.....MPT beat everyone with a very big margin....

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## Zarvan

PanzerKiel said:


> There
> 
> Exactly.
> 
> What i am saying is from the point of view of field trials.....MPT beat everyone with a very big margin....


Than why not go for it. This is the most easy gun to get with TOT for GOD sake

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## PanzerKiel

Zarvan said:


> Than why not go for it. This is the most easy gun to get with TOT for GOD sake


...somehow i havent been to the corridors where these decisions are made....

MPT had least stoppages. Mechanical sights were adjustable whereas other dealers of different rifles were telling us to aim off at diff ranges. In one trial, MPT hit 8/10 bullets at 500 m with mechanical sight.

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## YeBeWarned

PanzerKiel said:


> There



Where ?


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## PanzerKiel

Starlord said:


> Where ?


... Sorry for the mistake. Nothing there.

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## YeBeWarned

PanzerKiel said:


> ... Sorry for the mistake. Nothing there.



haha its ok sir, I just though you shared some picture of a gun club or something which didn't load

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## _NOBODY_

PanzerKiel said:


> Overall, SCAR didnt do that well.....but was relatively better than the rest of them......*MPT* however proved to be the best under all circumstances.


This is shocking but a very pleasant news. I wasn't even aware that we were testing MPT-76 and to think that it outperformed the likes of Scar-H and CZ Bren2 is insane. MPT-76 is extremely similar to HK-417 right?

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> You mean Turkish Gun ???
> 
> @PanzerKiel Sir to be crystal clear you are talking about this Rifle ???
> View attachment 646506
> View attachment 646507
> 
> @Path-Finder This is some seriously shocking news.


sarkar, no rifle performed better than another or the performance left other rifles in the dust. But the thing we have come to know is that an AR design has been chosen instead of a long stroke gas piston which is in the SCAR.


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> sarkar, no rifle performed better than another or the performance left other rifles in the dust. But the thing we have come to know is that an AR design has been chosen instead of a long stroke gas piston which is in the SCAR.


What I heard was don't know it's right or not that initial design of MPT 76 was that of HK 417. When HK threatened to sue only than they changed the shape slightly. If Mr @PanzerKiel is right about its performance than news seems to be true.

@cabatli_53 @Hakikat ve Hikmet @Combat-Master

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> What I heard was don't know it's right or not that initial design of MPT 76 was that of HK 417. When HK threatened to sue only than they changed the shape slightly. If Mr @PanzerKiel is right about its performance than news seems to be true.
> 
> @cabatli_53 @Hakikat ve Hikmet @Combat-Master


Hazrat just think about these things! AR is a design from the 1960's and it was not invented by H&K! They don't own the AR design they just used AR design so how is Turkey adopting AR design taken from H&K? If you say armalite then that is more believable! Then the operation of HK417 differs from MPT76 as well! MPT76 is based of the same principle as AR10!

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## Armchair

blain2 said:


> Han ji! My routine check-up on the thread. 416 pages later, what has the Army decided on?



My guess is the decision is to hold until present crisis and go for a 6.8mm round.


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## Philip the Arab

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat just think about these things! AR is a design from the 1960's and it was not invented by H&K! They don't own the AR design they just used AR design so how is Turkey adopting AR design taken from H&K? If you say armalite then that is more believable! Then the operation of HK417 differs from MPT76 as well! MPT76 is based of the same principle as AR10!


MPT is indeed based of HK417 even action is based off of it.

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## Path-Finder

Philip the Arab said:


> MPT is indeed based of HK417 even action is based off of it.


how?


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## Philip the Arab

Path-Finder said:


> how?


The design was based on the AR-15, but the gas piston system was influenced by the HK417.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MKE_MPT


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## Path-Finder

Philip the Arab said:


> The design was based on the AR-15, but the gas piston system was influenced by the HK417.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MKE_MPT



This is the gas system of HK417












The MPT76 does NOT have the same system! It has AR10 system!

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## Philip the Arab

Path-Finder said:


> This is the gas system of HK417
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The MPT76 does NOT have the same system! It has AR10 system!


Can you explain to me why it is better than even a civilian AR-10? This seems like an old run of the mill 1200 dollar gun, nothing really special.


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## Path-Finder

Philip the Arab said:


> Can you explain to me why it is better than even a civilian AR-10? This seems like an old run of the mill 1200 dollar gun, nothing really special.


I advise you to watch Larry Wickers on youtube he can explain it better than I can. But it offers no advantage over AR gas system according a ex-serviceman and Colt consultant!

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## Philip the Arab

Path-Finder said:


> I advise you to watch Larry Wickers on youtube he can explain it better than I can. But it offers no advantage over AR gas system according a ex-serviceman and Colt consultant!


No, I'm saying why is MPT better than something a civilian company can come up with in America? I see nothing really that unique to it.


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## Path-Finder

Philip the Arab said:


> No, I'm saying why is MPT better than something a civilian company can come up with in America? I see nothing really that unique to it.


most AR available to civilians in the US is far superior to what the military uses!


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## Philip the Arab

Path-Finder said:


> most AR available to civilians in the US is far superior to what the military uses!


Then hire some designers and produce it in country lel.


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## Path-Finder

Philip the Arab said:


> Then hire some designers and produce it in country lel.


you want to spend excessively on a rifle when militaries are under budgetary constraints! They have to go for solutions that fulfil set of requirements. They need millions of rifles and parts for the life of the service rifle. So they will calculate according to that and then select the rifle. 

How does that compare to a civilian buying a rifle in which he will only buy one most likely and has a choice of accessories according to how deep the consumers pocket are!

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## Philip the Arab

Path-Finder said:


> you want to spend excessively on a rifle when militaries are under budgetary constraints! They have to go for solutions that fulfil set of requirements. They need millions of rifles and parts for the life of the service rifle. So they will calculate according to that and then select the rifle.
> 
> How does that compare to a civilian buying a rifle in which he will only buy one most likely and has a choice of accessories according to how deep the consumers pocket are!


The UAE had experienced designers produce their Caracal rifles and now fulfill their needs, and export their guns. Why can't Pakistan do the same? There is no need to purchase an existing rifle when you can make your own.


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## Path-Finder

Philip the Arab said:


> The UAE had experienced designers produce their Caracal rifles and now fulfill their needs, and export their guns. Why can't Pakistan do the same? There is no need to purchase an existing rifle when you can make your own.


how deep are their pockets? how many personnel do they have in their military and how large is their nation? They are a desert nation and temperatures stay almost the same all year around whereas Pakistan has geographical and weather temperaments to consider. 

If I remember they had issues with their caracal which had to be fixed. wouldn't it be nicer if engineers and gunsmits from UAE's native developed the rifle they have the funds for it. 

Pakistan is developing a AR style rifle and maybe in the process of purchasing too but not likely. Sadly our pockets are not deep but if oil is pumped out like the gulf then Pakistan will be rich over night but when that will happen I can't say.

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## Philip the Arab

Path-Finder said:


> If I remember they had issues with their caracal which had to be fixed. wouldn't it be nicer if engineers and gunsmits from UAE's native developed the rifle they have the funds for it.


That was problems with a pistol, not a rifle. The rifle was designed by the same designers of HK416, which is one of the best rifles in the world.

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## Path-Finder

Philip the Arab said:


> That was problems with a pistol, not a rifle. The rifle was designed by the same designers of HK416, which is one of the best rifles in the world.


well luckily for me I didn't say pistol or rifle I said carcal had a problem.

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## Zarvan




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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


>


Hazrat the Turkish rifle seems decent. But do you approve?

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat the Turkish rifle seems decent. But do you approve?


Not MKEK but this Kale company looks really good. Both quality wise and also range of weapons it offers.

@cabatli_53


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Not MKEK but this Kale company looks really good. Both quality wise and also range of weapons it offers.
> 
> @cabatli_53


Your 'ok' is the most important

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## Armchair

US is already moving to a new rifle and a new caliber. Contrary to widely held opinion, it is not the 6.8SPC (6.8x43), but its 6.8x?? yet to be revealed. Supposedly, new types of casing using carbon fiber are being tested. 

Was just doing some calculations last night. 6.8 is half way between 5.56 and 7.62. While 48 is half way between 45 and 51. _Could the new rifle caliber be 6.8x48?_

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## MastanKhan

Armchair said:


> US is already moving to a new rifle and a new caliber. Contrary to widely held opinion, it is not the 6.8SPC (6.8x43), but its 6.8x?? yet to be revealed. Supposedly, new types of casing using carbon fiber are being tested.
> 
> Was just doing some calculations last night. 6.8 is half way between 5.56 and 7.62. While 48 is half way between 45 and 51. _Could the new rifle caliber be 6.8x48?_




Possibly 6.5 Creedmoor

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## Armchair

MastanKhan said:


> Possibly 6.5 Creedmoor



US is on record to have already chosen 6.8. However, they are not revealing the x factor yet - 6.8x??. Present 6.8 is 6.8x43 but this they have explicitly stated is not the version they will go with. This round has poor performance at range. 

They are likely to go with something that will give them a bigger bang, so to speak. They are also experimenting with non brass casings.

New rifle already going into production for the US with 6.8x??

https://breakingdefense.com/2019/09/textron-readies-for-mass-production-of-new-army-rifle/

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...-could-be-the-armys-next-standard-issue-rifle

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## untitled

Armchair said:


> US is on record to have already chosen 6.8. However, they are not revealing the x factor yet - 6.8x??. Present 6.8 is 6.8x43 but this they have explicitly stated is not the version they will go with. This round has poor performance at range.


Looks like a larger cartridge

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## Armchair

untitled said:


> Looks like a larger cartridge


 
That's one of the polymer cartridges proposed of the three. Polymer cartridges are bigger than brass cartridges of equal power.

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## Zarvan

Armchair said:


> US is already moving to a new rifle and a new caliber. Contrary to widely held opinion, it is not the 6.8SPC (6.8x43), but its 6.8x?? yet to be revealed. Supposedly, new types of casing using carbon fiber are being tested.
> 
> Was just doing some calculations last night. 6.8 is half way between 5.56 and 7.62. While 48 is half way between 45 and 51. _Could the new rifle caliber be 6.8x48?_


Pretty much in last 5 to 8 years 20 to 30 countries have selected new Assault Rifle series for their Armed Forces


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## Saifullah

MastanKhan said:


> Possibly 6.5 Creedmoor


It's SF's new sniper round i think.


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## Path-Finder

if your weapon shoot accurately then you don't have to waste your ammo. 7.62x39 should be replaced by a 6mm cartridge.

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## denel

Armchair said:


> US is already moving to a new rifle and a new caliber. Contrary to widely held opinion, it is not the 6.8SPC (6.8x43), but its 6.8x?? yet to be revealed. Supposedly, new types of casing using carbon fiber are being tested.
> 
> Was just doing some calculations last night. 6.8 is half way between 5.56 and 7.62. While 48 is half way between 45 and 51. _Could the new rifle caliber be 6.8x48?_


frankly we heard over 25 yrs back how 0.40 was the next in thing - it went nowhere.

Me .... I stick with 5.56 and 7.62; trusted ammo. not to mention grandpa's 0.303 PMP (pretoria metal works) specials.

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## Bossman

In our environment and circumstances 7.62 is the best. No polymer and composite cartridges for us. We sold all our 303s to African countries.

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## Amaa'n

I can see various LEAs across the country have adopted POF Azb as their standard DMR. 
It includes & not limited to SCU - CTD KPK, CTD Punjab, SSU Sindh, SPU Punjab, SOU ASF & CTD ISB.
There may be more orgs that have adopted the rifle but i have seen the rifle with them so far.

So this is a good achievement atleast

POF should atleast consider modification on existing AK47 / Type 56 platform same as they did with G3M

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## denel

Foxtrot Alpha said:


> I can see various LEAs across the country have adopted POF Azb as their standard DMR.
> It includes & not limited to SCU - CTD KPK, CTD Punjab, SSU Sindh, SPU Punjab, SOU ASF & CTD ISB.
> There may be more orgs that have adopted the rifle but i have seen the rifle with them so far.
> 
> So this is a good achievement atleast
> 
> POF should atleast consider modification on existing AK47 / Type 56 platform same as they did with G3M


Let them start with upgrading it to use 5.56mm. It is an excellent outcome.


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## Bossman

denel said:


> Let them start with upgrading it to use 5.56mm. It is an excellent outcome.


5.56 marksmen rifle?


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## Zarvan

@Path-Finder

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## Fusuoy

i am a gun enthusiast and wanted to ask what rifle the pakistan army ended up adopting as there is alot of conflicting info and also what is the pakistan armed forces service pistol and is there any plan to replace it?


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## I S I

Nothing finalized. Funds issue I think.


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## Zapper

Wasn't it the CZ-807/806 Bren-2 which will be license produced by POF and SSG will go with the FN-SCAR

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/12/09/pakistani-pof-tentative-plans-produce-cz-806-bren-2/

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## Pandora

None were selected as they say Khoda Phar aur nikla Chuha. Rifle replacement is an expensive undertaking so it will take time maybe another decade before we are in position to get rid of our dear old G3 and Type 56. Better close this thread before we have another 500 pages long discussion over nothing.

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## ebrahym

Fusuoy said:


> i am a gun enthusiast and wanted to ask what rifle the pakistan army ended up adopting as there is alot of conflicting info and also what is the pakistan armed forces service pistol and is there any plan to replace it?


FN SCAR was overall winner ...... due to being really expensive next in line the CZ bren 2 was chosen ......... However, at the last moment , either due to funds to some tricks of POF or other monkeys ...... an AR-10 with all imported parts except barrel which will be made at POF and dubbed PK-31 was chosen...... as for type 56....... nothing can replace an ak rifle but an ak rifle ...... Pakistan has chosen the most basic ak-103 rifle with underfolding stock .......

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## Sulman Badshah

ebrahym said:


> FN SCAR was overall winner ...... due to being really expensive next in line the CZ bren 2 was chosen ......... However, at the last moment , either due to funds to some tricks of POF or other monkeys ...... an AR-10 with all imported parts except barrel which will be made at POF and dubbed PK-31 was chosen...... as for type 56....... nothing can replace an ak rifle but an ak rifle ...... Pakistan has chosen the most basic ak-103 rifle with underfolding stock .......


It is PK 18 (instead of PK 31 ) ... and AK 103 is named as PK 21

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## Jamie Brooks




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## Zapper

ebrahym said:


> FN SCAR was overall winner ...... due to being really expensive next in line the CZ bren 2 was chosen ......... However, at the last moment , either due to funds to some tricks of POF or other monkeys ...... an AR-10 with all imported parts except barrel which will be made at POF and dubbed PK-31 was chosen...... as for type 56....... nothing can replace an ak rifle but an ak rifle ...... Pakistan has chosen the most basic ak-103 rifle with underfolding stock .......


CZ Bren-2 was also supposed to be license produced by POF. Why would they derail such a deal and go for an inferior AR-10/AK-103

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## Zarvan

I seriously doubt that PK 18 and PK 21 could be or would be Pakistan's next Assault Rifle. In fact my humble opinion says eventually it would be of those Rifles which we tested in Rifle trials.

@PanzerKiel 

@Horus Sir I humbly request you if you have any updates on this please share.

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## ZULUDARKTANGO

Zapper said:


> CZ Bren-2 was also supposed to be license produced by POF. Why would they derail such a deal and go for an inferior AR-10/AK-103


I think, their wanted to give local manufacturer a chance to compete, i think their still were in prototype state when their showed cased them, And are being evaluated by armed forces, anyway this replacement looks to be salved due to non-availability of funds.


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## PAR 5

Can you imagine, millions of Rupees spent by rifle manufacturers on these trials by providing a minimum of 30 rifle sets, millions of Rupees spent by Army to arrange country wide trials with literally hundreds of personnel involved with all three services, millions of man hours spent on writing technical reports, all rifles imported by manufacturers for Pakistan Army sealed at Inspectorate of Armaments until such time and even if a decision ever comes. Hundred of Thousands of Dollars and Euros spent by the likes of FN Herstal, CZ, and others to end up with ZERO and UNCERTAIN RESULT.

If I was a prominent rifle manufacturer, I would have already blacklisted Pakistan Army from further interaction on such a tremendous blunder

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## Zarvan

PAR 5 said:


> Can you imagine, millions of Rupees spent by rifle manufacturers on these trials by providing a minimum of 30 rifle sets, millions of Rupees spent by Army to arrange country wide trials with literally hundreds of personnel involved with all three services, millions of man hours spent on writing technical reports, all rifles imported by manufacturers for Pakistan Army sealed at Inspectorate of Armaments until such time and even if a decision ever comes. Hundred of Thousands of Dollars and Euros spent by the likes of FN Herstal, CZ, and others to end up with ZERO and UNCERTAIN RESULT.
> 
> If I was a prominent rifle manufacturer, I would have already blacklisted Pakistan Army from further interaction on such a tremendous blunder


Well FN damaged its own chances. What I have heard is FN was not agreeing to local SCAR production.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

PAR 5 said:


> Can you imagine, millions of Rupees spent by rifle manufacturers on these trials by providing a minimum of 30 rifle sets, millions of Rupees spent by Army to arrange country wide trials with literally hundreds of personnel involved with all three services, millions of man hours spent on writing technical reports, all rifles imported by manufacturers for Pakistan Army sealed at Inspectorate of Armaments until such time and even if a decision ever comes. Hundred of Thousands of Dollars and Euros spent by the likes of FN Herstal, CZ, and others to end up with ZERO and UNCERTAIN RESULT.
> 
> If I was a prominent rifle manufacturer, I would have already blacklisted Pakistan Army from further interaction on such a tremendous blunder



Try running any business.. even to apply for tenders we have to pay a fee/draft and struggle without knowing the outcome. Its part of the business.



Zapper said:


> CZ Bren-2 was also supposed to be license produced by POF. Why would they derail such a deal and go for an inferior AR-10/AK-103



How is Pak PK-18 Inferior? That said we have 3 weapons in mass circulation. PK if selected will replace the G3. The Ak103 or PK21 will replace the MP5s and Type series.

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## Bilal.

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Try running any business.. even to apply for tenders we have to pay a fee/draft and struggle without knowing the outcome. Its part of the business.
> 
> 
> 
> How is Pak PK-18 Inferior? That said we have 3 weapons in mass circulation. PK if selected will replace the G3. The Ak103 or PK21 will replace the MP5s and Type series.



uncertainty in winning or losing is acceptable but running a sham trial is not.... we pulled an india on these suppliers.

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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> Well FN damaged its own chances. What I have heard is FN was not agreeing to local SCAR production.


 Remember those days when it was ALL OK on all aspects as per what you "heard"? 



Zarvan said:


> I seriously doubt that PK 18 and PK 21 could be or would be Pakistan's next Assault Rifle. In fact my humble opinion says eventually it would be of those Rifles which we tested in Rifle trials.
> 
> @PanzerKiel
> 
> @Horus Sir I humbly request you if you have any updates on this please share.


That is not what you THINK, that is what you WISH. 



PAR 5 said:


> Can you imagine, millions of Rupees spent by rifle manufacturers on these trials by providing a minimum of 30 rifle sets, millions of Rupees spent by Army to arrange country wide trials with literally hundreds of personnel involved with all three services, millions of man hours spent on writing technical reports, all rifles imported by manufacturers for Pakistan Army sealed at Inspectorate of Armaments until such time and even if a decision ever comes. Hundred of Thousands of Dollars and Euros spent by the likes of FN Herstal, CZ, and others to end up with ZERO and UNCERTAIN RESULT.
> 
> If I was a prominent rifle manufacturer, I would have already blacklisted Pakistan Army from further interaction on such a tremendous blunder


Part of the game boss. Let us just say we pulled a "india" over them this time.

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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> Remember those days when it was ALL OK on all aspects as per what you "heard"?
> 
> 
> That is not what you THINK, that is what you WISH.
> 
> 
> Part of the game boss. Let us just say we pulled a "india" over them this time.


This I heard from @PanzerKiel and also that MPT 76 was one of best performing Rifles in our trials. Secondly my doubts on PK 18 are because I seriously doubt that Army ordered POF to design a Assault Rifle for them. This PK 18 could very well one of rare occasions where POF may have taken the initiative on it's own.

@DESERT FIGHTER

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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> This I heard from @PanzerKiel and also that MPT 76 was one of best performing Rifles in our trials. Secondly my doubts on PK 18 are because I seriously doubt that Army ordered POF to design a Assault Rifle for them. This PK 18 could very well one of rare occasions where POF may have taken the initiative on it's own.
> 
> @DESERT FIGHTER


Just want you to note and remember how much have changed over last year or two, remember when you were certain about things COMPLETELY different than the things you are certain about now. Let this be a lesson to us all, there are no certainties in this business dear. NEVER!!

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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> Just want you to note and remember how much have changed over last year or two, remember when you were certain about things COMPLETELY different than the things you are certain about now. Let this be a lesson to us all, there are no certainties in this business dear. NEVER!!


Well this COVID thing have change a lot of things so I am hoping that if talks are started again we may the get the deal of our choice.


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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> Well this COVID thing have change a lot of things so I am hoping that if talks are started again we may the get the deal of our choice.


The COVID thing have not changed this thing!! It was changed way before COVID outbreak. One important point i beg you to understand is "there are not certainties in this business". So even if General Bajwa calls you to tell you something, do think it is final, a certainty, a God sent truth until it happens. That is how military procurement work. SCAR being best in trials was never going to be enough, you "hearing" that local production, export licience, part manufacturing, all that being "absolutely certain" was never going to be enough. I am not taunting you brother, just trying to explain to you how things are!! Military procurement involves so so many steps, it is never 100% guaranteed.

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## Zapper

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> How is Pak PK-18 Inferior? That said we have 3 weapons in mass circulation. PK if selected will replace the G3. The Ak103 or PK21 will replace the MP5s and Type series.


Of course they're inferior when compared to the likes of SCAR or CZ. Idk if you ever held a rifle, let alone an AK or an AR but AK-103 is the most basic it could ever get, only a notch above a locally manufactured AK-47. 

I still loathe IA's decision to go for the AK-203 and hope that deal gets cancelled. Infact, the rifle IA will be getting isn't even a complete AK-203 but a hybrid of AK-103 & 203 to keep the costs low. If there's any AK rifle that's worthy inducting into the armed forces, it's the AK-12 which the Russian army went with

Secondly, PK-18 is nothing but a basic rip-off of an AR-10 platform and if you seriously think that could go against the likes of SCAR, HK417, CZ...I can only pity your ignorance. Your initial plan to have the CZ license produced at POF is still a better deal if you're able to get the price right

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Zapper said:


> Of course they're inferior when compared to the likes of SCAR or CZ. Idk if you ever held a rifle, let alone an AK or an AR but AK-103 is the most basic it could ever get, only a notch above a locally manufactured AK-47.
> 
> I still loathe IA's decision to go for the AK-203 and hope that deal gets cancelled. Infact, the rifle IA will be getting isn't even a complete AK-203 but a hybrid of AK-103 & 203 to keep the costs low. If there's any AK rifle that's worthy inducting into the armed forces, it's the AK-12 which the Russian army went with
> 
> Secondly, PK-18 is nothing but a basic rip-off of an AR-10 platform and if you seriously think that could go against the likes of SCAR, HK417, CZ...I can only pity your ignorance. Y*our initial plan to have the CZ license produced at POF is still a better deal if you're able to get the price right*


I suspect the real hang-up with CZ was CZ's unwillingness to allow POF to re-export those rifles. I think we could still salvage a deal if we remove POF from the process and, instead, support a jointly-owned private venture involving CZ and a Pakistani company. So we get these rifles built in Pakistan, and CZ gets a cut from 3rd-party exports.

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## Philip the Arab

@Zapper 
What about getting renowned designers to develop top notch guns for you based off previous designs like Caracal in the UAE did?


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## Zapper

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I suspect the real hang-up with CZ was CZ's unwillingness to allow POF to re-export those rifles. I think we could still salvage a deal if we remove POF from the process and, instead, support a jointly-owned private venture involving CZ and a Pakistani company. So we get these rifles built in Pakistan, and CZ gets a cut from 3rd-party exports.


That'd be the best way to go forward. I heard the order requirement is for 500k rifles (correct me if I'm wrong) but if true, you could negotiate a good price given CZ isn't doing great in the civilian market like that of FN or HK or AK. With that size of an order, there's no reason to look into exports. Hire consultants and design an improvised yet cost efficient version of the CZ and market it as your own. Setting up a rifle manufacturing facility isn't that hard when compared to others but it's important the right private company is selected to ensure quality control

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Zapper said:


> Of course they're inferior when compared to the likes of SCAR or CZ. Idk if you ever held a rifle, let alone an AK or an AR


Yeah never ever, I do have some toy AKs, AMDs, M4s and M16 apart from some toy shotguns and handguns.
Ask @MilSpec 


> but AK-103 is the most basic it could ever get, only a notch above a locally manufactured AK-47.
> 
> I still loathe IA's decision to go for the AK-203 and hope that deal gets cancelled. Infact, the rifle IA will be getting isn't even a complete AK-203 but a hybrid of AK-103 & 203 to keep the costs low. If there's any AK rifle that's worthy inducting into the armed forces, it's the AK-12 which the Russian army went with


Its replacing a secondary weapon ans AK103 is a fine weapon, even your SF use.



> Secondly, PK-18 is nothing but a basic rip-off of an AR-10 platform and if you seriously think that could go against the likes of SCAR, HK417, CZ...I can only pity your ignorance. Your initial plan to have the CZ license produced at POF is still a better deal if you're able to get the price right


If insiders are to be believed we chose Turkish MPT .. that said there are plently of AR10 type platforms used by both US and UK.













If it works and fulfills Pak mils requirement than im all for it.

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## Zapper

Philip the Arab said:


> @Zapper
> What about getting renowned designers to develop top notch guns for you based off previous designs like Caracal in the UAE did?


There's this new Indian small arms start-up "SSS Defense" who's sniper rifles are currently under testing with Para SF & NSG. They also developed Assault Rifles and Carbines which are being pitched to IA

I believe they went the Caracal route and hired western consultants to design their first articles though the IP is Indian and will be locally produced

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Zapper said:


> There's this new Indian small arms start-up "SSS Defense" who's sniper rifles are currently under testing with Para SF & NSG. They also developed Assault Rifles and Carbines which are being pitched to IA
> 
> I believe they went the Caracal route and hired western consultants to design their first articles though the IP is Indian and will be locally produced


Sadly you are wrong, these are produced by a small US company that sells these rifles for 1000-1200 $.


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## Zapper

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> that said there are plently of AR10 type platforms used by both US and UK.


You could get a sub $500 AR-10/15 from PSA or BCA vs a $1500+ from Sig or FN...which one would you go?



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Its replacing a secondary weapon ans AK103 is a fine weapon


So what's replacing the primary weapon? The PK-18!!



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> even your SF use


Tavor and M4 are still the primary weapon of choice for our SF

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Zapper said:


> There's this new Indian small arms start-up "SSS Defense" who's sniper rifles are currently under testing with Para SF & NSG. They also developed Assault Rifles and Carbines which are being pitched to IA
> 
> I believe they went the Caracal route and hired western consultants to design their first articles though the IP is Indian and will be locally produced


All said Im very happy at Pak finally doing something and developing its own small arms.

From G3 carbines, snipers to heavy machine guns and battle rifles.

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## Zapper

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Sadly you are wrong, these are produced by a small US company that sells these rifles for 1000-1200 $.


The initial deal was with LMT to license manufacture those rifles in India. But that would come with the hassle of ITAR and keep the IP Indian, they might have hired the same LMT consultants to design their rifles and manufacture em in Anatapur, Andhra Pradesh where their manufacturing facility is currently under construction


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Zapper said:


> You could get a sub $500 AR-10/15 from PSA or BCA vs a $1500+ from Sig or FN...which one would you go?


Depends if your buying from a small hick garage or state owned company out to arm over a million troops.

So what's replacing the primary weapon? The PK-18!!


Tavor and M4 are still the primary weapon of choice for our SF[/QUOTE]

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## Zapper

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Depends if your buying from a small hick garage or state owned company out to arm over a million troops.
> 
> So what's replacing the primary weapon? The PK-18!!
> 
> 
> Tavor and M4 are still the primary weapon of choice for our SF



View attachment 656488
View attachment 656489
View attachment 656490
[/QUOTE]
I could post more pictures of SF's using Tavors and M4's. Checkout "Unknowncommando" page on twitter











and I never denied SF using AK, it still is the most reliable rugged weapon of choice. I've even seen SF using a basic AK-47, looks like something snatched from a terrorist but they're acclimated to the AR & Bulpup platforms recently and that's their weapon of choice down the lane

Infact, Para SF's newest acquisition includes 715 Mk 48 Light Machine Guns (LMGs), 1,050 FN Scar (H), 1,400 FN Scar (L) or HK-416 assault rifles, 110 .50 Cal Browning heavy machine guns (HMG) and 100 Barret M107 A1 snipers which are all western platforms

https://www.dailyo.in/politics/para...try-of-defence-indian-army/story/1/30043.html


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## MilSpec

@Zapper Why wouldn't a PK18/AR10 be able to go up against SCAR,HK417,CZ?

I chose an AR10 over others myself. DI guns especially if to be used as DMR offer better accuracy that Piston guns. Given Pakistans Small arms industry is pretty good, there is no reason why PK-18 if built right won't be able to go up against the best.

@DESERT FIGHTER It's good you did not choose the MPT, you guys can do a better job than the turks (irrespective of how good your relationship might be) of building a Short stroke AR if needed.


DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Yeah never ever, I do have some toy AKs, AMDs, M4s and M16 apart from some toy shotguns and handguns.
> Ask @MilSpec
> 
> Its replacing a secondary weapon ans AK103 is a fine weapon, even your SF use.
> 
> 
> If insiders are to be believed we chose Turkish MPT .. that said there are plently of AR10 type platforms used by both US and UK.
> 
> View attachment 656485
> View attachment 656486
> View attachment 656487
> 
> 
> If it works and fulfills Pak mils requirement than im all for it.



@Zapper Also @DESERT FIGHTER has been shooting for ages now, He is one of those gun enthusiasts who has so many guns that he even loses them

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## Zapper

MilSpec said:


> DI guns especially if to be used as DMR offer better accuracy that Piston guns


DI versions in general are lighter, with noticeably lesser recoil and far more accurate than their gas piston counterparts. The trade off is DI versions causes the fired bullet to retract unburned gunpowder back into the rifle in minute amounts resulting in cleaning the rifle more often. DI versions are also relatively cheaper over gas piston rifles. No wonder IA chose Sig-716i over Sig-716 G2



MilSpec said:


> @Zapper Why wouldn't a PK18/AR10 be able to go up against SCAR,HK417,CZ?
> 
> I chose an AR10 over others myself


Never said an AR platform in general is inferior to SCAR or the likes but SCAR, HK, CZ have been battle proven and used by some of the best forces out there. Anyone could make an AR platform and if POF wants to make a cheap rip-off of an AR platform similar to that of those sub $500 AR's and equip frontline troops...that's definitely not the way forward

But if PA pits the PK-18 over the former contenders in a fair trail and weigh the cost differences...that'd be a whole new ball game. I'm all in for going indigenous, be in Indians or our adversaries but not at the cost of jeopardizing the lives of soldiers since we already know both IA & PA troops use shoddy gear. A good infantry rifle is the least you can provide em with

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## MilSpec

Zapper said:


> DI versions in general are lighter, with noticeably lesser recoil and far more accurate than their gas piston counterparts. The trade off is DI versions causes the fired bullet to retract unburned gunpowder back into the rifle in minute amounts resulting in cleaning the rifle more often. DI versions are also relatively cheaper over gas piston rifles. No wonder IA chose Sig-716i over Sig-716 G2
> 
> 
> Never said an AR platform in general is inferior to SCAR or the likes but SCAR, HK, CZ have been battle proven and used by some of the best forces out there. Anyone could make an AR platform and if POF wants to make a cheap rip-off of an AR platform similar to that of those sub $500 AR's and equip frontline troops...that's definitely not the way forward
> 
> But if PA pits the PK-18 over the former contenders in a fair trail and weigh the cost differences...that'd be a whole new ball game. I'm all in for going indigenous, be in Indians or our adversaries but not at the cost of jeopardizing the lives of soldiers since we already know both IA & PA troops use shoddy gear. A good infantry rifle is the least you can provide em with


US and most of Nato forces have operated DI gun for close to 4-5 decades. The cleaning aspect is overblown. I have had run an entire course for Carbine of over 600 rounds in a day without any cleaning without any issues. I have known operators that ran M16's in Afghanistan for weeks without cleaning and have had no issues.

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## Zapper

MilSpec said:


> US and most of Nato forces have operated DI gun for close to 4-5 decades. The cleaning aspect is overblown. I have had run an entire course for Carbine of over 600 rounds in a day without any cleaning without any issues. I have known operators that ran M16's in Afghanistan for weeks without cleaning and have had no issues.


That's the general notion about DI but I personally haven't found out the difference. Well, there must be some reason why people are increasingly inclined towards gas piston over DI


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Zapper said:


> The initial deal was with LMT and license manufacture those rifles in India. But that would come with the hassle of ITAR and keep the IT Indian, they might have hired the same LMT consultants to design their rifles and manufacture em in Anatapur, Andhra Pradesh where their manufacturing facility is currently under construction


Ashbury precision sabre and viper.


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## Zapper

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Ashbury precision sabre and viper.


These are the tactical bolt action rifles from Ashbury





















While this is SSS





















So how exactly are they both the same unless you actually think every bolt action rifle looks similar or did you end up going with the name "Saber" being common in both!!

Again, I'm not saying SSS's rifles have been designed by Indian designers but some western consultants...most probably from LMT must've been hired since they're the ones whom SSS initially intended to partner with.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Zapper said:


> These are the tactical bolt action rifles from Ashbury
> 
> View attachment 656600
> 
> 
> View attachment 656601
> 
> 
> View attachment 656602
> 
> 
> View attachment 656603
> 
> 
> While this is SSS
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 656606
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So how exactly are they both the same unless you actually think every bolt action rifle looks similar or did you end up going with the name "Saber" being common in both!!
> 
> Again, I'm not saying SSS's rifles have been designed by Indian designers but some western consultants...most probably from LMT must've been hired since they're the ones whom SSS initially intended to partner with.



I posted this entire thing in the relevant indian thread along with pictures. You are free to debate there and not trash this thread.

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## Zarvan




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## eagleeye

it's been 5 years. why does pakistan not develop the rifle itself. meanwhile, many countries develop their rifles themselves. It is not a rocket science.


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## Fusuoy

First of all it would cost alot
second we dont need to when theres so many companies offering tried and true rifles


eagleeye said:


> it's been 5 years. why does pakistan not develop the rifle itself. meanwhile, many countries develop their rifles themselves. It is not a rocket science.


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## Fusuoy

though i would love for a actually good rifle to be made, i would buy it
but i would also not want l85: electric boogaloo also


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## DESERT FIGHTER

eagleeye said:


> it's been 5 years. why does pakistan not develop the rifle itself. meanwhile, many countries develop their rifles themselves. It is not a rocket science.


What do you thing is PK18

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## eagleeye

Are these rifle already chosen and in serial produktion.it looks good.


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## Fusuoy

ngl the PK 18 is just your average DI ar 10 rifle, the RND is none in its making
if we made something more unique then i would agree with you


DESERT FIGHTER said:


> What do you thing is PK18
> View attachment 657496
> View attachment 657497
> View attachment 657498

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## Fusuoy

its a massive approvement to the g3 dont get me wrong, but not a completely indeginous design
the grot or the modern japanese army weapon is more akin to that i was referrent
above that it isnt even a piston system which is a good deal more reliable, its DI


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## Fusuoy

but again its a tried and true design which is hard to get wrong


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## Zarvan

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> What do you thing is PK18
> View attachment 657496
> View attachment 657497
> View attachment 657498


Someone looking like an assassin

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## ebrahym

Zapper said:


> CZ Bren-2 was also supposed to be license produced by POF. Why would they derail such a deal and go for an inferior AR-10/AK-103


one thing is money ....... other is the fact that they dont really bring a lot to the table ..... i.e. the lethality which is the property of cartridge and not the rifle is same ..... furthermore, PA is much more accustomed to ak so manual of training is same .... i can go on and on but i think that is sufficient to prove the point 
P.S unlike indian armed forces , pakistans weapons procurement is very competent ..... so i would say we have nothing to worry about here ...... sure some pockets will get heavy but atleast a decision has been made.


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## Fusuoy

also didnt SSG go for the scar H?


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## Fusuoy

also ive read that PA went for the mpt 76 for g3 replacement and bren in 7.62x39 for type 56 replacement


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## Fusuoy

also the ARX 160 was adopted by some specialist police force

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## Zarvan



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## JPMM

Zarvan said:


>

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## JPMM

For FN-SCAR lovers.... LOL

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## Zarvan

JPMM said:


> View attachment 658571



I still hope we can see this in Pakistan Army. @Horus @PanzerKiel

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## Ghost 125

Zarvan said:


> I still hope we can see this in Pakistan Army. @Horus @PanzerKiel


no disrespect but you are too optimistic for your own good

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## Metal 0-1

Zarvan said:


> I still hope we can see this in Pakistan Army. @Horus @PanzerKiel


I have still got PTSD from previous SCAR incident...


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> I still hope we can see this in Pakistan Army. @Horus @PanzerKiel


we need to set up a fund to buy you a SCAR. bas khera nhi chadna.

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## CrazyZ

Fusuoy said:


> ngl the PK 18 is just your average DI ar 10 rifle, the RND is none in its making
> if we made something more unique then i would agree with you


PK18/AR10 is a good choice. Light wieght and accurate. Fancy FN-SCARs are only slightly better then the AR platform. Plus POF wants to export these rifles. The largest rifle market in the world is the USA civilian market.....USA civilian market is an AR dominated market.

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## Thorough Pro

I would hate to see anything foreign inducted. We should use our own made in Pakistan weaponry.

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## Kompromat

What if your local industry isn't capable of delivering the required standards? 




Thorough Pro said:


> I would hate to see anything foreign inducted. We should use our own made in Pakistan weaponry.

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## Zarvan

Horus said:


> What if your local industry isn't capable of delivering the required standards?


Sir when you plan to break the news ???


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Sir when you plan to break the news ???


oh after 5 years you are still living in lala land?

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## mingle

Zarvan said:


> Sir when you plan to break the news ???


Shahid said it's EU rifle not AK103 could be Fnscar too since after COVID PA can negotiate a better deal

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## Trango Towers

Whybhas hit not designed one?


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## Talwar e Pakistan

Trango Towers said:


> Whybhas hit not designed one?


They have, I think it will be officially unveiled on IDEAS 2021.

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## Trango Towers

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> They have, I think it will be officially unveiled on IDEAS 2021.


Hope so as this is not an engineering feat.


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## Zarvan

mingle said:


> Shahid said it's EU rifle not AK103 could be Fnscar too since after COVID PA can negotiate a better deal


Shahid who ???


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## mingle

Zarvan said:


> Shahid who ???


Shahid raza

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## mingle

Zarvan said:


> Shahid who ???


It's mean chances are about FNScar??


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## Thorough Pro

Then either our standards are wrong or we have a loser mentality that we can't do what the world can do.
If your local industry can give you nukes, missiles, and JF-17's a rifle should not be that big of a deal besides where are G3's, MP5's and Type 56's are made?




Horus said:


> What if your local industry isn't capable of delivering the required standards?

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## Zarvan

Thorough Pro said:


> Then either our standards are wrong or we have a loser mentality that we can't do what the world can do.
> If your local industry can give you nukes, missiles, and JF-17's a rifle should not be that big of a deal besides where are G3's, MP5's and Type 56's are made?


USA also gave contract to FN which is a Belgian company to begin with and Handguns contract to SIG which is basically Swedish company and its Sniper Rifle contract to H and K


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## Zarvan

mingle said:


> It's mean chances are about FNScar??



Most likely yes. It's either BREN or SCAR or both. @PanzerKiel

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## mingle

Zarvan said:


> Most likely yes. It's either BREN or SCAR or both. @PanzerKiel


After COVID it is possible to have good deal with Belgium

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## Kompromat

You should first go and find out why we have not been able to develop a rifle. 



Thorough Pro said:


> Then either our standards are wrong or we have a loser mentality that we can't do what the world can do.
> If your local industry can give you nukes, missiles, and JF-17's a rifle should not be that big of a deal besides where are G3's, MP5's and Type 56's are made?

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## Thorough Pro

What kind of comment is that? and where do you want me to go?
I don't need to go anywhere, I know the exact reason why it has not happened and how it can be done.



Horus said:


> You should first go and find out why we have not been able to develop a rifle.


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## Metal 0-1

mingle said:


> Shahid raza


Who????


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## Zarvan

Horus said:


> You should first go and find out why we have not been able to develop a rifle.


Sir I know you have some kind of news please don't prolong the suspense and please break the news.


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> USA also gave contract to FN which is a Belgian company to begin with and Handguns contract to SIG which is basically Swedish company and its Sniper Rifle contract to H and K


SIG is Swiss not swedish! what contract did they give FN? they are not buying anymore SCAR from them but Hazrat you cant let the FN SCAR go! sad really.


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## Vapour

Trango Towers said:


> Whybhas hit not designed one?



Isn't it within POF's domain?


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## Vapour

Metal 0-1 said:


> Who????



Twitter poster and analyst.


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## Thorough Pro

and what does that prove?



Zarvan said:


> USA also gave contract to FN which is a Belgian company to begin with and Handguns contract to SIG which is basically Swedish company and its Sniper Rifle contract to H and K


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## Zarvan

Thorough Pro said:


> and what does that prove?


Even a superpower doesn't make all of its weapons.


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## Thorough Pro

You just made a fool of yourself



Zarvan said:


> Even a superpower doesn't make all of its weapons.


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## blain2

Path-Finder said:


> SIG is Swiss not swedish! what contract did they give FN? they are not buying anymore SCAR from them but Hazrat you cant let the FN SCAR go! sad really.


The M249 squad automatic weapon (Minimi) is an FN product which is also in use with all three special services in Pakistan.
I think Pakistan should have come up with the money to set up CZ production line in the country just like G-3. 
With India going for outright purchase of Sig rifles chambered for 7.62mm rounds for their infantry, their is a need to push this process through. Either go with the local production and stick with it, or make a decision on licensed manufacturing. While I do not know what is happening on the inside, but I believe the GHQ/PoF have their list of local/foreign preferences and unfortunately for Pakistan, just like with the G-3, the country will opt for what is financially feasible and not necessarily what the trials and selection process arrived at.

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## Zarvan

Thorough Pro said:


> You just made a fool of yourself


No I didn't, making every weapon in your country is highly possible but takes massive industrial base as well as money to achieve that. Pakistan industry is not even close to be ready. We until bring private business giants like Nishat group and others in defence what you are suggesting sounds great but will remain a distant possibility.


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> No I didn't, making every weapon in your country is highly possible but takes massive industrial base as well as money to achieve that. Pakistan industry is not even close to be ready. We until bring private business giants like Nishat group and others in defence what you are suggesting sounds great but will remain a distant possibility.


this answer of yours shows us that you live in lala land.


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## Waiting

What can Ukraine give us.... there is a TOT....


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> this answer of yours shows us that you live in lala land.


I live in reality, and reality is state run manufacturers in most cases are disaster. If you want strong defence industry which both fulfils our requirements and earns massive revenues by exporting weapons than you need to go for privatisation as well as bring more private businesses in defence sector.

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## Zarvan

Waiting said:


> What can Ukraine give us.... there is a TOT....


Engine technology. If we can convince Ukraine to give us that it would be massive game changer for us.


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> I live in reality, and reality is state run manufacturers in most cases are disaster. If you want strong defence industry which both fulfils our requirements and earns massive revenues by exporting weapons than you need to go for privatisation as well as bring more private businesses in defence sector.


5 years of talking to you on this topic and we have not moved an nanometer forward. this unique Pakistani trait of had dharmi is alien to me.

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## Waiting

Sir, there is something in small weapon category... I have no further details

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> 5 years of talking to you on this topic and we have not moved an nanometer forward. this unique Pakistani trait of had dharmi is alien to me.


Please prove me wrong ???? State owned defence industry are a disaster in India. Our HIT and POF we know what they are even Turkey's MKEK is not very great machine. Chinese companies like Norinco which seem to be state owned actually aren't state owned and run so where I am wrong please bother to enlighten me.

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## Zarvan



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## RAMPAGE

Path-Finder said:


> this answer of yours shows us that you live in lala land.


Stop picking on the man, for God's sake. You've been at it for years now. Don't you think you've made your point?

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## PAR 5

اس پوسٹ کو اب دفن کر دیا جاۓ ۔ بندوق لینی نہیں پر بڑ بڑ ابھی بھی جاری ہے۔ بس کرو بابا بس کرو

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## Bossman

Zarvan said:


> USA also gave contract to FN which is a Belgian company to begin with and Handguns contract to SIG which is basically Swedish company and its Sniper Rifle contract to H and K


US is also buying Frigates and helicopters from Italy and Turrets from Rhinemetall. I think erosion of US manufacturing sector is now starting to hit its defense sector.

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## Zarvan

PAR 5 said:


> اس پوسٹ کو اب دفن کر دیا جاۓ ۔ بندوق لینی نہیں پر بڑ بڑ ابھی بھی جاری ہے۔ بس کرو بابا بس کرو


A decision has been taken. Announcement will come soon.

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Please prove me wrong ???? State owned defence industry are a disaster in India. Our HIT and POF we know what they are even Turkey's MKEK is not very great machine. Chinese companies like Norinco which seem to be state owned actually aren't state owned and run so where I am wrong please bother to enlighten me.


your scar wala phand pona. when will it end? WHEN?


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> A decision has been taken. Announcement will come soon.


how many times have you said this? you are biased with your support for scar!!


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> how many times have you said this? you are biased with your support for scar!!


In last one week I got the report. Have totally no clue which Rifle it is, but something is coming.

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## PAR 5

Zarvan said:


> A decision has been taken. Announcement will come soon.



چلو جی، جتھے دی کھوتی اتھے ان کھلوتی!

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## Waiting

Path-Finder said:


> how many times have you said this? you are biased with your support for scar!!


Ukraine is in the loop...


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## Fusuoy

imma bet they made some deal with zastava or KC, those are the cheapest rifles and also are AKs so very reliable
or the arx 160 maybe cause of its adoption with a police agencies special teams in pakistan
or maybe even one of the many AR 10s which were submitted but didnt get the spotlight
again alot of top tier AR makers entered the competition


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## Fusuoy

SCAR plain and simple why very very good rifle is hella exspensive so for service weapon slim chance
the bren is decent but ive heard issues with it.


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## Path-Finder

Waiting said:


> Ukraine is in the loop...


with what product?


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## Yasser76

Controversial point, but now War on Terror is almost over in Pakistan, most Pakistani troops will be aiming to fight India in a conventional war, be it in Siachin, LOC, Punjab plains or Thar desert. This require long range 7.62mm rifles. Colt Carbines not much use here. 

India will be building AK-203 and ordering Sig Saur from US. Both 7.62 rifles, after their domestic 5.5MM INSAS failure.

My point is, why leave the G3? It is reliable, it is 7.62mm, it has great stopping power. 

My not just get POF to make a lighter version with folding butt (think they may have already developed this), maybe increase magazine size by 10 rounds, attempt to shorten barrel a bit.

You still have a damn good assault rifle.

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## Yasser76

POF have created the G3-M tactical. Polymer body and shorter barrel.

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## Yasser76

Some interesting quotes about Pak Army views on G3 rifle and potential replacements. Main issue is weight and ability to control on full auto. Having fired G-3, AK, SLR, SA-80 and Colt Carbine, I would still go for G3, but that is personal opinion









The G3 Battle Rifle


During the Cold War, the G3 was one of the world's pre-eminent battle rifles. Developed in France and Spain after 1945, the rifle was produced by the German arms manufacturer Heckler & Koch. Adopted by more than 40 countries and produced on licence by many more, it was widely employed during...



books.google.co.uk


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## Fusuoy

cause the g3 is simply put obselete, it is a weapon of the early cold war and there are much much better alternative of it now available for us, i can assure you any of the AR 10 weapons offered to us by companies such as LMT and KAC will surpass the g3 is any and all fields while not even being that exspensive and if we decide to change calibers for any reason they can easily be converted over

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## Yasser76

Fusuoy said:


> cause the g3 is simply put obselete, it is a weapon of the early cold war and there are much much better alternative of it now available for us, i can assure you any of the AR 10 weapons offered to us by companies such as LMT and KAC will surpass the g3 is any and all fields while not even being that exspensive and if we decide to change calibers for any reason they can easily be converted over




G3 is not modern tech you are right, but we are also evaluating AK-103. The US military still uses a 60 year old Browning design as a heavy machine gun. With refinement I think G3 still relevent, especially if you consider the money we could save. Even US military now eyeing up replacing M14 and 5.56mm with a higher calibre and Indian Army reverting back to 7.62mm too.

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## In arduis fidelis

So when is this thread closing?


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## Tair-Lahoti

Yasser76 said:


> G3 is not modern tech you are right, but we are also evaluating AK-103. The US military still uses a 60 year old Browning design as a heavy machine gun. With refinement I think G3 still relevent, especially if you consider the money we could save. Even US military now eyeing up replacing M14 and 5.56mm with a higher calibre and Indian Army reverting back to 7.62mm too.


Wasn't there a News a few days back that Pakistan is buying AK-103 and will be built in Pakistan as Pk-21??


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## Fusuoy

Tair-Lahoti said:


> Wasn't there a News a few days back that Pakistan is buying AK-103 and will be built in Pakistan as Pk-21??


russia said no to that cause of the fact that it might jeopardize stuff with india as india is buying much more then some AKs from russia like there latest helicopters and tanks so they value indian contracts more than ours

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## Ghost 125

Fusuoy said:


> russia said no to that cause of the fact that it might jeopardize stuff with india as india is buying much more then some AKs from russia like there latest helicopters and tanks so they value indian contracts more than ours


of all the things that never happened, this never happened the most.

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## Fusuoy

werent they buying stuff like migs from the russians? also im [ositive they said no to us buying the AK 103 from them


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## Tair-Lahoti

Fusuoy said:


> russia said no to that cause of the fact that it might jeopardize stuff with india as india is buying much more then some AKs from russia like there latest helicopters and tanks so they value indian contracts more than ours


India had clearly mentioned its red line to Russia, small arms don't fall in the list.


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## Tair-Lahoti

Fusuoy said:


> russia said no to that cause of the fact that it might jeopardize stuff with india as india is buying much more then some AKs from russia like there latest helicopters and tanks so they value indian contracts more than ours


"There are red lines in all relationships. We have no problems if the Russians sell non-lethal equipment like Mi-17 helicopters to Pakistan. They can even sell counter-terrorism equipment but the Mi-35s are not non-lethal equipment," a source in the government told Mail Today.








India draws 'red line' on Russia-Pakistan deal


When Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin arrives in India next week, he will be informed that Russia's plans to sell lethal military equipment to Pakistan amounts to the crossing of a




www.dailymail.co.uk


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## Fusuoy

Russia rejects Pakistan request for 50,000 AK rifles, assures India of no deals in future


Pakistan's proposal to buy consignment from Russia had surprised many in India since its army uses AK 56, manufactured by China, among other rifles.




theprint.in


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## Fusuoy

while the source is indian multiple others also state this, but i wouldnt mid if we do adopt the 103 for it is solid weapon but for g3 replacement an ar 10 would be very good suh as from haenal, LMT and KAC which submitted rifle for this competition


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## Ghost 125

Fusuoy said:


> while the source is indian multiple others also state this, but i wouldnt mid if we do adopt the 103 for it is solid weapon but for g3 replacement an ar 10 would be very good suh as from haenal, LMT and KAC which submitted rifle for this competition


multiple others are all based on the same source. reason for delay in rifle program has nothing to do with Russian-Indian relations or weapon trade (they wouldnt sell us RD 93s, MI 35s etc by that logic)... it is because we have other priorities at the moment... specially the big ticket items for armd and arty etc

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## Armchair

I'm holding out for a locally designed rifle by a private Pakistani arms manufacturer, with a new, unique caliber.


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## CrazyZ

J-10 P Firebird said:


> I'm holding out for a locally designed rifle by a private Pakistani arms manufacturer, with a new, unique caliber.


My guess is it will either be any two rifles choosing from a local clone of AR-10, CZ-Bren or some modern variant of AK.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

CrazyZ said:


> View attachment 675304
> 
> 
> G3 is still effective on the modern battlefield. It is being used by the Azeri to good effect.


Thats HK33.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

CrazyZ said:


> View attachment 675304
> 
> 
> G3 is still effective on the modern battlefield. It is being used by the Azeri to good effect.


Azeris use AK. Above pic is of Turkish Army.


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## Tair-Lahoti

Fusuoy said:


> Russia rejects Pakistan request for 50,000 AK rifles, assures India of no deals in future
> 
> 
> Pakistan's proposal to buy consignment from Russia had surprised many in India since its army uses AK 56, manufactured by China, among other rifles.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> theprint.in


Indian media is as good as HqiqatTv bro. 😂

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## Fusuoy

Armchair said:


> I'm holding out for a locally designed rifle by a private Pakistani arms manufacturer, with a new, unique caliber.


id agree only if the rifle and caliber were good, otherwise we would be a laughing stock like the indians and there complete failure of the INSAS program


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## Fusuoy

i just wish the rifle is modern and reliable aswell as an improvement to the g3 and type 56 in every single way


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## Armchair

Fusuoy said:


> id agree only if the rifle and caliber were good, otherwise we would be a laughing stock like the indians and there complete failure of the INSAS program



I think a Pak private company could do a much better job than the government run programs of India...

6.8mm is the caliber of the future and being selected for the US next generation caliber. Although Pak should be brave enough to adopt a round even if the US didn't do it first - the mindset of only doing things the West does, is one that ultimately defeats the colonized Muslims we currently are.

Simply take a rifle you like, chamber it to a new round, make some minor cosmetic changes, and you get your own rifle... no magic to it. The arms industry is full of such successful commercial stories. 

Produce in small batches, give them to the soldiers, keep improving them with feedback, and make something even better...


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## Fusuoy

good point, but look at copying the west like this
there doing the testing for us if the round is any good or not, saving us money and time

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## Fusuoy

also making a short stroke gas piston rifle thats light and reliable isnt rocket science so its very possible that a private company given enough money and resorces can pull it off

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## Zarvan

CrazyZ said:


> My guess is it will either be any two rifles choosing from a local clone of AR-10, CZ-Bren or some modern variant of AK.


It won't be local. Secondly Russia hasn't made it any promise to India that it won't sell Pakistan any weapons. All the reports in Indian media are big fat lies. @Fusuoy @Armchair @Tair-Lahoti

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## Armchair

Zarvan said:


> It won't be local. Secondly Russia hasn't made it any promise to India that it won't sell Pakistan any weapons. All the reports in Indian media are big fat lies. @Fusuoy @Armchair @Tair-Lahoti



Zarvan bro, are you sure about this? Given past history, not sure you want to get burnt again...

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## GriffinsRule

Russia must have done a pinkie swear with India

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## Fusuoy

also why wouldnt russia sell weapons to us, they already sold us mi 35s which are some prety serious firepower, also i wish we adopted more of the newer AKs, like the ak 108 or rpk 16

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## Tair-Lahoti

Armchair said:


> Zarvan bro, are you sure about this? Given past history, not sure you want to get burnt again...


yes there is no disagreement on selling non lethal weapons. There may be no promises made, agree to this too.
But, Russia do want India to keep buying heavy Machinery from it, and hence won't sell any thing to Pakistan which can jeopardize this relation.

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## Fusuoy

i think mi 35s are lethal weapons and they have sold them to us, if they sold us mi 35s what are some AKs?
mi 35s are flying tanks

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## Fusuoy

also i do wish the russians sold us the ak 15 or even better our own personal AK version


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## Zarvan

Tair-Lahoti said:


> yes there is no disagreement on selling non lethal weapons. There may be no promises made, agree to this too.
> But, Russia do want India to keep buying heavy Machinery from it, and hence won't sell any thing to Pakistan which can jeopardize this relation.


MI 35 is pretty lethal weapon so will be Machine Guns and Assault Rifles. And trust me they are offering lot more.


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## Tair-Lahoti

Zarvan said:


> MI 35 is pretty lethal weapon so will be Machine Guns and Assault Rifles. And trust me they are offering lot more.


India did protest when Pakistan bought MI 35, I don't think selling rifles be a problem. 
i will trust you if we ever receive Fighter jets, or capable air defence system from Russia.


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## Arsalan

Good to see people finally giving up and discussion Mi35 on the gun replacement thread, a project that was "deal is done, delivery start soon, we produce, we export, money no problem" five years ago. 

When you see moderator APPRECIATING discussion about helicopters on a thread related to guns, you must understand how bad things actually are in relation to that gun discussion.

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## Zarvan

Tair-Lahoti said:


> India did protest when Pakistan bought MI 35, I don't think selling rifles be a problem.
> i will trust you if we ever receive Fighter jets, or capable air defence system from Russia.


They can protest as much as they want. Russia is done listening to them.


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## Fusuoy

russia is above india in this situation, all india can do is whine about them selling stuff to us,


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## ghazi52

China, Russia, Germany ... AK47


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## Waiting

Our high level visited Belarus, we may get stuff via Belarus.
Our high level visited Belarus, we may get stuff via Belarus.


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## I S I

Waiting said:


> Our high level visited Belarus, we may get stuff via Belarus.
> Our high level visited Belarus, we may get stuff via Belarus.


Our high level visited Belarus, we may get stuff via Belarus.

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## Armchair

It is truly pathetic on the part of POF that there even has to be a discussion of importing Russian AKs. How do those people sleep at night?

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## Zarvan

Waiting said:


> Our high level visited Belarus, we may get stuff via Belarus.
> Our high level visited Belarus, we may get stuff via Belarus.


Belarus is being approached for optics. Belarus makes some really good Red dot sights and other Rifle Scopes.

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## Yasser76

Zarvan said:


> Belarus is being approached for optics. Belarus makes some really good Red dot sights and other Rifle Scopes.



Not great optics buying stuff from Belarus. Sorry, could not resist!

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## Fusuoy

idk ask them, but i agree how do they sleep at night, we can easily make our own service rifle easily if we wanted to


Zarvan said:


> Belarus is being approached for optics. Belarus makes some really good Red dot sights and other Rifle Scopes.


could you show eamples of belarus optics


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## Zarvan

Fusuoy said:


> idk ask them, but i agree how do they sleep at night, we can easily make our own service rifle easily if we wanted to
> 
> could you show eamples of belarus optics


@Sulman Badshah knows the companies of Belarus which make those optics.


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## CriticalThought

Alright my little contribution. How about we make a lot of these, and give them to India for free? War won, problem solved.





On a more serious note, we already have a production license for G3. Get an IP license, and start making modifications and patenting them to build a good portfolio of patents.

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## Fusuoy

ask me we shoudl replace type 56 with ak 103 but wait for the NGSW trials to be completed to see the preformance of those rounds as they might be a better choice then a new rifle in 308
as the rounds submitted are prettyh hight tech stuff with polymer casing

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## TheDarkKnight

Arsalan said:


> Good to see people finally giving up and discussion Mi35 on the gun replacement thread, a project that was "deal is done, delivery start soon, we produce, we export, money no problem" five years ago.
> 
> When you see moderator APPRECIATING discussion about helicopters on a thread related to guns, you must understand how bad things actually are in relation to that gun discussion.


Why not discuss the assault-rifle that should be used by the new marine force (~10k) being raised by PN ?
I would say they should and will use G3.


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## Arsalan

TheDarkKnight said:


> Why not discuss the assault-rifle that should be used by the new marine force (~10k) being raised by PN ?
> I would say they should and will use G3.


I dont think there will be a single standard issue gun for marines. The will most likely be usind a mix of two or three systems already being used by Army and G3 will a significant part of it. Dont see them inducting a new/separate gun via competition/tender!


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## Fusuoy

i say give them new weapons, not neccecarily exspensive weapons
like the ak 15 instead of type 56, a much better gun in all regards then the old type 56.
hell they might be the first to get new weapons Army has adopted
though i still stand by we should wait for the US trials to get over cause there new round might be very good for us, the type 56 should be replaced though with the newer AKs though for a whole bunch of reasons
one of them is the fact that the New russian AKs like ak 15 are identical internally to type 56 so no new training needed but has piccatiny rail and better stock aswell as better build quality
truth be told the 103 is already outdated by the ak 15
russia will sell them to us if we are willing to pay the price which wouldnt be as much as say buying scars
also AK 15 has suppressor ready barrel and also runs well with supprsors
ak 103 or ak 15 also use same exact magazine as type 56 which reduces cost to buy new ones


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## Metal 0-1

They are incompetent as hell. They can't even replace older G-3s with new light weight variants. 

CZ deal was good but they decided not to.

They just need VT-4 and stuff even if infantrymen have to carry a musket or flintlock gun.

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## Ghost 125

Metal 0-1 said:


> They are incompetent as hell. They can't even replace older G-3s with new light weight variants.
> 
> CZ deal was good but they decided not to.
> 
> They just need VT-4 and stuff even if infantrymen have to carry a musket or flintlock gun.


thats a sweeping statement. they are not necessarily incompetent. they have a limited budget for a large army. so they have to prioritize according to threat perception. 
G3 and Type 56 can still fight against AK203 and Sig 716... but can a T 59/69 match T 90 MS in battlefield..NO.

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## That Guy

Metal 0-1 said:


> They are incompetent as hell. They can't even replace older G-3s with new light weight variants.
> 
> CZ deal was good but they decided not to.
> 
> They just need VT-4 and stuff even if infantrymen have to carry a musket or flintlock gun.


Signing a contract for a few hundred fighter jets and tanks is much easier than a rifle.

With the rifle replacement, we're talking about potentially millions, with hundreds of thousands of soldiers that need to be retrained to use the new rifles. You also need to set up manufacturing facilities for the rifles and the ammunition, among a vast number of other things you need to do. Once all of this is accomplished, you have to spend a good decade to replace the existing stockpile of rifles. It took Israel literally 10 years to replace the regular infantry's old rifles with the Tavor, and that's not even counting reserve units, special forces...etc.

With tanks and fighters, you can buy them off the shelf, sign a few maintenance contracts with a trusted arms dealer, and still be fine. With rifles, it's much more complicated and time consuming.

The rifle is the life blood of the army. Even when the tanks are destroyed, even when the fighter jets are all shot down, the rifle can still be enough to fight back. Israel learned that lesson the hard way, when they went into Labanon, the US learned this in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Making a bad purchase of a rifle can be the biggest disaster to occur to an army, the UK learned this against the argentinians during the Falkland wars, where the UK had tech superiority, but their shittier single shot FALs were completely outclassed by the Argentinian FALs, to the point that the British soldiers literally started taking and using the rifles they got from dead Argentinian soldiers.

When the US invaded Afghanistan and later Iraq, US soldiers did the same, as their M-16/M-4s kept jamming due to the rough dusty environment, being forced to grab a back up AK rifle off of the bodies of militants.

During the height of militancy in Pakistan, Pakistani special forces literally had to switch from their m-4s and f-2000s to the Type-56s and similar AKs, because of similar problem that the US faced. The environment in places like Swat and Waziristan was too rough, and the heavily wooded areas were especially rough, as their 5.56 NATO rounds couldn't penetrate the thick trees, and the muddy environment kept jamming their weapons. They had to switch to the AK type rifles like the type-56, with its larger round to compensate for this problem.

Thankfully, a lot of modern rifles have compensated for this problem, so it's not as big of a deal. Still 1 put of a thousand verses 1 out of 10,000 rifles jamming can mean the life and death of a soldier, it can even make an entire battle unwinnable, leading to a large amount of deaths.

Tl;dr it's not incompetence, it's just difficult.

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## Metal 0-1

That Guy said:


> When the US invaded Afghanistan and later Iraq, US soldiers did the same, as their M-16/M-4s kept jamming due to the rough dusty environment, being forced to grab a back up AK rifle off of the bodies of militants.


As far as I remember US soldiers never had to ditch because their M-4s were jamming. 
M-4 is a good platform. IT works in mud, snow at freezing point. Don't know why boomers think these fancy ARs aren't good enough to handle some dust. AKs have limitations too its just myth that AK is some kind of GOD gun which is so much powerful.

At start there ere problems with M-16 in Vietnam but quality rifles were issued in Gulf Shield and they are being issued since then. 
Firefights in Afghanistan were mostly long range. Some patrol got ambushed or attack at heir firebase. So soldiers would run out in the open grab AK and get to their rest of team to return fire.

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## Yasser76

Metal 0-1 said:


> As far as I remember US soldiers never had to ditch because their M-4s were jamming.
> M-4 is a good platform. IT works in mud, snow at freezing point. Don't know why boomers think these fancy ARs aren't good enough to handle some dust. AKs have limitations too its just myth that AK is some kind of GOD gun which is so much powerful.
> 
> At start there ere problems with M-16 in Vietnam but quality rifles were issued in Gulf Shield and they are being issued since then.
> Firefights in Afghanistan were mostly long range. Some patrol got ambushed or attack at heir firebase. So soldiers would run out in the open grab AK and get to their rest of team to return fire.



M-4 is actually a decent weapon, issue is that it was essentially ideal for the urban combat/Terror wars that US has been fighting around the globe for last 20 years. It's lightweight, small size and ability to clean easily was ideal for this, and 5.56mm rounds were perfect.

Now that Pakistan is basically orientated towards a full scale conventional war with India (mainly), the requirements for a standard service rifle are very different. Our troops will not be firing from inside APCs or small squads busting down doors in cities.

Infantry will mainly do the old fashioned job of taking and holding ground in company/battalion level attacks, often in open fields/desert. As many on here know, these often start off at a distance of 300 meters during the day and around 200 meters at night. Here we will be fighting against dug troops often with body armour, not rebels in shirts. 7.62mm is the way to go here, with a rifle that can sustain long periods in the field so needs to be durable


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## Metal 0-1

That Guy said:


> During the height of militancy in Pakistan, Pakistani special forces literally had to switch from their m-4s and f-2000s to the Type-56s and similar AKs, because of similar problem that the US faced. The environment in places like Swat and Waziristan was too rough, and the heavily wooded areas were especially rough, as their 5.56 NATO rounds couldn't penetrate the thick trees, and the muddy environment kept jamming their weapons. They had to switch to the AK type rifles like the type-56, with its larger round to compensate for this problem.


And our Special forces are happy with their M-4s. I can give you pictures and operations which were fought with M-4s. F-2000 is one of the reliable bullpups. It is a closed system not water, mud or slit is going to damage it. F-2000 are used by SSW their mission in COIN was to jump in and call in CAS or air strikes on targets not for long range patrols.

Type-56 were only used by those units who are going to be behind enemy for a while because you can fin AK ammo easily. 

Maybe you should read bullet ballistic data. 7.62x39 is not a good round for penetration but it has good punch and stopping power. Its heavy and slow. It is good in short to medium ranges. Maximum effective range it can travel is 500 yards.

Now, 5.56 is a good round for short to long ranges. It is fast lighter go through body armour easily. It is good round for engagements upto 600-700 yards depending upon optic, shooter and barrel should be 14 inch which is standard. Someone who says 5.56 cant kill give me or someone else to shoot them.

Most of the engagements which our troops and SF units have fought were at long ranges. So what do you want a slow,heavier and short ranged bullet or a faster, lighter and long ranged bullet.

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## That Guy

Metal 0-1 said:


> And our Special forces are happy with their M-4s. I can give you pictures and operations which were fought with M-4s. F-2000 is one of the reliable bullpups. It is a closed system not water, mud or slit is going to damage it. F-2000 are used by SSW their mission in COIN was to jump in and call in CAS or air strikes on targets not for long range patrols.
> 
> Type-56 were only used by those units who are going to be behind enemy for a while because you can fin AK ammo easily.
> 
> Maybe you should read bullet ballistic data. 7.62x39 is not a good round for penetration but it has good punch and stopping power. Its heavy and slow. It is good in short to medium ranges. Maximum effective range it can travel is 500 yards.
> 
> Now, 5.56 is a good round for short to long ranges. It is fast lighter go through body armour easily. It is good round for engagements upto 600-700 yards depending upon optic, shooter and barrel should be 14 inch which is standard. Someone who says 5.56 cant kill give me or someone else to shoot them.
> 
> Most of the engagements which our troops and SF units have fought were at long ranges. So what do you want a slow,heavier and short ranged bullet or a faster, lighter and long ranged bullet.


You're right and wrong. Pakistan's special forces such as the SSG ARE happy with the m-4s, but that doesn't mean they didnt encounter problems before. It's a very well known fact that they did in fact have to switch over the type 56, in order to compensate for the problems I mentioned.

While you are correct that the 556 has better piercing power than the 762, the problem with that is it only really applies to soft targets, such as human flesh and ballistics jell. Things like piecing thick sheets of metal, or destroying tree branches, I'd rather use an AK type, as the 762 round is known to not pierce, but utterly rips targets into two pieces, which is why the switch became necessary. In other words, rough targets like trees, you're better off with a 762 round.

While the range for the m-4 is 600 to 700, as compared to the sky's effective range of 500, that matters little as most engagements tend to happen either in long distances, or a distance of roughly 300 yards or less, so you're right about that, but the problem here is that you're misinformed about the distance of engagements that the Pakistan army had to deal with. While most engagements did take place at extremely long ranges, those were mostly potshots at patrolling soldiers, and in those cases, the range was well beyond the 600-700 yards. In which case, battle rifles such as the G-3 were used to engage the enemy, which has a much longer effective range than both the Ak and the M4, due to both its longer barrel, and large bullet...etc.

There was also the issue of environmental damage to the M4 rifles, which is well documented in various battlefields.

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## That Guy

Metal 0-1 said:


> As far as I remember US soldiers never had to ditch because their M-4s were jamming.
> M-4 is a good platform. IT works in mud, snow at freezing point. Don't know why boomers think these fancy ARs aren't good enough to handle some dust. AKs have limitations too its just myth that AK is some kind of GOD gun which is so much powerful.
> 
> At start there ere problems with M-16 in Vietnam but quality rifles were issued in Gulf Shield and they are being issued since then.
> Firefights in Afghanistan were mostly long range. Some patrol got ambushed or attack at heir firebase. So soldiers would run out in the open grab AK and get to their rest of team to return fire.


[EDIT] *I couldn't find the article about iraq, but it was a well known problem in afghanistan...*

*https://www.cleveland.com/world/2009/10/in_2008_afghan_firefight_us_we.html*

*Here is an article that mentions both Iraq and Afghanistan...*

*https://www.cbsnews.com/news/m4-rifles-causing-problems-for-us-troops/*

&&

The m4/m16 suffered a lot of problems in Iraq especially, to the point it became a political issue in the US during the time. There were soldiers constantly complaining of jams, due to dust getting into their rifles...etc.

It's a good platform now, because the problems were eventually fixed.

Firefights in Afghanistan constituted one of two scenarios. Either it was long range in other words, potshots at soldiers from militant snipers, who quickly ran off after shooting. Or they were close, and intense.

While I can't personally verify this, I do have a buddy in the Canadian armed forces, who served in Afghanistan, who told me about this. He told me a vast majority of his time there, nothing happened, and of the very few firefights he got into, 90% of the engagements was them getting shot at from a random direction, and not know where it came from, only to find the shooter was long gone.


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## Fusuoy

556 being good at long ranges depends on ammo and gun usually, ususally 556 long range weapons use high quality ammo like the mk12 spr


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## Metal 0-1

Fusuoy said:


> 556 being good at long ranges depends on ammo and gun usually, ususally 556 long range weapons use high quality ammo like the mk12 spr


Standard 55 grain ammo fired from a 14inch barrel can easily pushed out to 700 yards.


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## Metal 0-1

That Guy said:


> You're right and wrong. Pakistan's special forces such as the SSG ARE happy with the m-4s, but that doesn't mean they didnt encounter problems before. It's a very well known fact that they did in fact have to switch over the type 56, in order to compensate for the problems I mentioned.
> 
> While you are correct that the 556 has better piercing power than the 762, the problem with that is it only really applies to soft targets, such as human flesh and ballistics jell. Things like piecing thick sheets of metal, or destroying tree branches, I'd rather use an AK type, as the 762 round is known to not pierce, but utterly rips targets into two pieces, which is why the switch became necessary. In other words, rough targets like trees, you're better off with a 762 round.
> 
> While the range for the m-4 is 600 to 700, as compared to the sky's effective range of 500, that matters little as most engagements tend to happen either in long distances, or a distance of roughly 300 yards or less, so you're right about that, but the problem here is that you're misinformed about the distance of engagements that the Pakistan army had to deal with. While most engagements did take place at extremely long ranges, those were mostly potshots at patrolling soldiers, and in those cases, the range was well beyond the 600-700 yards. In which case, battle rifles such as the G-3 were used to engage the enemy, which has a much longer effective range than both the Ak and the M4, due to both its longer barrel, and large bullet...etc.
> 
> There was also the issue of environmental damage to the M4 rifles, which is well documented in various battlefields.





That Guy said:


> [EDIT] *I couldn't find the article about iraq, but it was a well known problem in afghanistan...*
> 
> *https://www.cleveland.com/world/2009/10/in_2008_afghan_firefight_us_we.html*
> 
> *Here is an article that mentions both Iraq and Afghanistan...*
> 
> *https://www.cbsnews.com/news/m4-rifles-causing-problems-for-us-troops/*
> 
> &&
> 
> The m4/m16 suffered a lot of problems in Iraq especially, to the point it became a political issue in the US during the time. There were soldiers constantly complaining of jams, due to dust getting into their rifles...etc.
> 
> It's a good platform now, because the problems were eventually fixed.
> 
> Firefights in Afghanistan constituted one of two scenarios. Either it was long range in other words, potshots at soldiers from militant snipers, who quickly ran off after shooting. Or they were close, and intense.
> 
> While I can't personally verify this, I do have a buddy in the Canadian armed forces, who served in Afghanistan, who told me about this. He told me a vast majority of his time there, nothing happened, and of the very few firefights he got into, 90% of the engagements was them getting shot at from a random direction, and not know where it came from, only to find the shooter was long gone.


That's what I am saying. All engagements were long range. Most of the time enemy was not even there. 

So there was no grabbing of AK and fighting remaining militants. You just validated my point no one ran towards enemy at the distance of half a kilometre and grabbed their AKs because their M-4s are jammed. This is some Hollywood stuff.

Both articles were based upon same fire team in Wanat. So there lies a chance of 1 being not so good out of 1000. 

I found AR a reliable weapon. If it jam mostly because of steel case ammo or uneven feeding of ammo in mags. Just push mag in and pull charging handle.

And type-56 is not AKM or AK-74 which had good reputation. Most of the Type-56 I saw had poor finish both on receiver and hand guard..

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## Fusuoy

AR is also more modular and you can put attachments on it easier then an AK


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## monitor

Four long years have already passed this thread created but no sign of buying new service rifle for Pakistan. Pakistan could buy couple of thousand rifle from best two three option from the competition and tested those in accual battle conditions afterwards produce the best performing riffle.


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## Fusuoy

if im correct we have selected one, just need to buy it and give it to soldiers


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## That Guy

Metal 0-1 said:


> That's what I am saying. All engagements were long range. Most of the time enemy was not even there.
> 
> So there was no grabbing of AK and fighting remaining militants. You just validated my point no one ran towards enemy at the distance of half a kilometre and grabbed their AKs because their M-4s are jammed. This is some Hollywood stuff.
> 
> Both articles were based upon same fire team in Wanat. So there lies a chance of 1 being not so good out of 1000.
> 
> I found AR a reliable weapon. If it jam mostly because of steel case ammo or uneven feeding of ammo in mags. Just push mag in and pull charging handle.
> 
> And type-56 is not AKM or AK-74 which had good reputation. Most of the Type-56 I saw had poor finish both on receiver and hand guard..


You're cherry picking what I said, actually you're misquoting me. I said MOST engagements were long range, not all.

There is literally combat footage on the internet that you can find of close range combat between US forces and militants. In fact, there is an entire reddit community that's dedicated to combat footage.

You also merely skimmed over the articles, and ignored the parts that mentioned that this was a consistent issue for a long time.

There seems to be no point in arguing with you, seeing as you're arguing in bad faith. If you want to argue with me, then argue properly.


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## Metal 0-1

That Guy said:


> You're cherry picking what I said, actually you're misquoting me. I said MOST engagements were long range, not all.
> 
> There is literally combat footage on the internet that you can find of close range combat between US forces and militants. In fact, there is an entire reddit community that's dedicated to combat footage.
> 
> You also merely skimmed over the articles, and ignored the parts that mentioned that this was a consistent issue for a long time.
> 
> There seems to be no point in arguing with you, seeing as you're arguing in bad faith. If you want to argue with me, then argue properly.


I do watch videos from r/combatfootage.

Okay Sir, nice interaction.


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## Fusuoy

any idea though what rifle we chose?
cause ive heard nothing


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Belarus is being approached for optics. Belarus makes some really good Red dot sights and other Rifle Scopes.


ahhh no belarus is no longer on the horizon as per well he left the forum now @Gryphon


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## Cuirassier

So...PK-18 not in the horizon? What viable options do we have? Stagnation hi hogayi hai pa'yaan. 

G3 replacement would be a priority. Now that the neighbours are getting a good new battle rifle, should we expect some miracle after an agonizing wait?


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## Zarvan

Cuirassier said:


> So...PK-18 not in the horizon? What viable options do we have? Stagnation hi hogayi hai pa'yaan.
> 
> G3 replacement would be a priority. Now that the neighbours are getting a good new battle rifle, should we expect some miracle after an agonizing wait?


What I am hearing is that finally a decision has been made and yes first G3 will be replaced. There is silence on Type 56. What gun it will be I have no clue about.

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## Waiting

Via Belarus.....


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## Neurath

They'll probably replace the HK G3 with something from the West and the Type-56 with something Russian.
I don't expect to see Pakistani made guns in service any time soon.


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## Yasser76

Neurath said:


> They'll probably replace the HK G3 with something from the West and the Type-56 with something Russian.
> I don't expect to see Pakistani made guns in service any time soon.



I would not be surprised to see if Pak Mil s closely following how Chinese small arms fair up during the winter stand off with India....

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## Neurath

Yasser76 said:


> I would not be surprised to see if Pak Mil s closely following how Chinese small arms fair up during the winter stand off with India....


Chinese arms are unlikely. The modern ones haven't been able to prove if they're reliable yet. Lets see what happens in the winter.

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## Yasser76

Neurath said:


> Chinese arms are unlikely. The modern ones haven't been able to prove if they're reliable yet. Lets see what happens in the winter.



Many of the ones evaluated have not been tested that much in combat imagine

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## Zarvan

Yasser76 said:


> Many of the ones evaluated have not been tested that much in combat imagine


Chinese assault rifles have no chance. Not one bit. It will be either Turkish or European.

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## Yasser76

Zarvan said:


> Chinese assault rifles have no chance. Not one bit. It will be either Turkish or European.



Why so? We have been using Type 56 for many years.


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## Yasser76

Neurath said:


> Only their older weapons were reliable. Now they're mainly junk and haven't seen combat.



I don't know enough on both in terms of toughness to make a comparison. However for China to adopt it across entire PLA when they could of easily license made something else is a statement surely?


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## retaxis

Chinese QBZ 191 is a beast


https://www.armyrecognition.com/images/stories/news/2019/october/QBZ-191_New_Chinese-made_assault_rifle_carbine_5.8x42mm_caliber_925_001.jpg





https://i1.wp.com/asiatimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/Nat-Int.png?w=1134&ssl=1

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## Neurath

Fusuoy said:


> chinese modern weaponry is all pieces of shit, we should avoid them like the plaugue
> russian, american or european weapons are what we should look at


I agree. The Chinese are good at making tanks, for that we only have to look at the South Sudanese and Sudanese war where Type 85s decimated T-72s.
Other than that, we should look towards European and Russian equipment. The Americans have it good but they create a lot of problems in the buying/selling process. The Europeans have it equally good as the Americans without any shitty terms and conditions.
As far as the Russians are concerned, they can supply guns to Pakistan especially better AKs since the Pakistan Army is already familiar with the AK platform.
Turkey's also becoming a good option now, however they have most of their stuff very expensive right now, lets see if they make something we have the ability to buy and operate.

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## donkeykong

The new qbz 191 is better and more reliable than ak12 and more moddable than scar h


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## Metal 0-1

donkeykong said:


> The new qbz 191 is better and more reliable than ak12 and more moddable than scar h


Nice Joke. Gave me a chuckle.

But AK-12 and SCAR are both reliable and better than QBZ 191.

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## Raja Porus

So whats the status. Its been more than five years since this thread was started


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## retaxis

Metal 0-1 said:


> Nice Joke. Gave me a chuckle.
> 
> But AK-12 and SCAR are both reliable and better than QBZ 191.


Proof?

Why pakistan doesnt make its own assault rifle like little israel does?


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Neurath said:


> ow they're mainly junk and haven't seen combat.





Fusuoy said:


> chinese modern weaponry is all pieces of shit, we should avoid them like the plaugue
> russian, american or european weapons are what we should look at


What qualifies as 'junk'? Based on what empirical data?

The only thing you could claim with certitude is that 'they haven't seen combat', but even there one could question what 'combat' is defined as and why it is necessary if stringent testing has been carried out in different conditions.

And pardon me for being flippant, but do you really need bullets flying at you and shells exploding near you to confirm if a rifle is going to perform as advertised?

I would suggest members refrain from such broad statements (junk, useless, low quality etc) when talking about various weapons systems.

For one, we have members from multiple countries on this forum, and no one likes products manufactured by their nation referred to in such broad, derogatory terms.

Second, statements such as these (junk, useless, lower quality), given the lack of supporting information, reduce the quality of the discussions and forum.

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## Neurath

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> What qualifies as 'junk'? Based on what empirical data?
> 
> The only thing you could claim with certitude is that 'they haven't seen combat', but even there one could question what 'combat' is defined as and why it is necessary if stringent testing has been carried out in different conditions.
> 
> And pardon me for being flippant, but do you really need bullets flying at you and shells exploding near you to confirm if a rifle is going to perform as advertised?
> 
> I would suggest members refrain from such broad statements (junk, useless, low quality etc) when talking about various weapons systems.
> 
> For one, we have members from multiple countries on this forum, and no one likes products manufactured by their nation referred to in such broad, derogatory terms.
> 
> Second, statements such as these (junk, useless, lower quality), given the lack of supporting information, reduce the quality of the discussions and forum.


I apologize, will make sure the right form of language is used and I give supporting information.

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## CT-9914 "Snoop"

Armchair said:


> I'm holding out for a locally designed rifle by a private Pakistani arms manufacturer, with a new, unique caliber.


what's the logic behind developing a new caliber when's there are multiple out in the market that can do the job?


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## Metal 0-1

retaxis said:


> Proof?
> 
> Why pakistan doesnt make its own assault rifle like little israel does?


So you want POF to spend time and money in RnD which they should have designed a new platform decades ago and we should be manufacturing that particular rifle.

But they find the easy way like shitty Type-56.


Metal 0-1 said:


> So you want POF to spend time and money in RnD which they should have designed a new platform decades ago and we should be manufacturing that particular rifle.
> 
> But they find the easy way like shitty Type-56.


Chinese rifle manufacturing is not that mature. Klashinkov Concern and Fabrique National are producing high quality rifles like AK-74M now AK12 and FAL/SLR now SCAR.

FYI FN FAL OSW is still better battle rifle than G-3


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## Armchair

CT-9914 "Snoop" said:


> what's the logic behind developing a new caliber when's there are multiple out in the market that can do the job?



The logic is that the common eastern and western calibers are not ideal for Pakistani conditions.


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## Fusuoy

but they are. 308 is very good for longer range engagement like moutains and such
while 556 and such are better for closer quarter combat such as urban warfare
and if we dont like those there are multitude of calibers that could be good for us that we need just to test out


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## CT-9914 "Snoop"

Armchair said:


> The logic is that the common eastern and western calibers are not ideal for Pakistani conditions.


yes they are, they have been since the beginning what's changed now?


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## Raja Porus

All those who criticizing Chinese arms must also keep in mind that it was the Chinese jf17 and missile that shot down su30 and it were the t59s that formed the back bone of PA. I cna also very confidtly say that vt4s are the most lethal tanks in the south asian Theatre .But instead of vt4s we should have bought 2000 each of top 5 of the dunya ke 10 khatarnK tareen tank by haqeeqat tv (namely : T14s m1a2 and leapord2a7)

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## Armchair

CT-9914 "Snoop" said:


> yes they are, they have been since the beginning what's changed now?



I would say that I disagree with "they have been since the beginning". PA had chosen 762x51 NATO and didn't adopt the newer NATO caliber because it felt it is underpowered for its needs. I'll let you do your own research why that is so, why NATO chose the round, etc. I've never been one to like to spoon feed people.

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## CT-9914 "Snoop"

Armchair said:


> I would say that I disagree with "they have been since the beginning". PA had chosen 762x51 NATO and didn't adopt the newer NATO caliber because it felt it is underpowered for its needs. I'll let you do your own research why that is so, why NATO chose the round, etc. I've never been one to like to spoon feed people.


I think you didn't quite understand what I meant. Pakistan DID adopt the 7,62NATO caliber even tho it wasn't specifically made for this environment. That means other calibers can too, potentially. So why go thru the whole process of developing a new caliber if there can be something in the market that can potentially fulfill our needs.


Desert Fox 1 said:


> the t59s that formed the back bone of PA


and how did that work out? And I don't think most people have a problem with selecting Chinese systems. It's selecting ONLY Chinese systems, be it the JF-17 and it's avionics, be it most of our tanks, be it most new Naval acquisitions from the new subs to the VLS on the Jinnah-class. Too much dependency on one source, be it the Chinese, doesn't always work out as planned, and what better example for that than our own air force following the 1965 war.

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## Metal 0-1

Desert Fox 1 said:


> All those who criticizing Chinese arms must also keep in mind that it was the Chinese jf17 and missile that shot down su30 and it were the t59s that formed the back bone of PA. I cna also very confidtly say that vt4s are the most lethal tanks in the south asian Theatre .But instead of vt4s we should have bought 2000 each of top 5 of the dunya ke 10 khatarnK tareen tank by haqeeqat tv (namely : T14s m1a2 and leapord2a7)


I thought it was F-16 and an AMRAAM

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## Raja Porus

CT-9914 "Snoop" said:


> I think you didn't quite understand what I meant. Pakistan DID adopt the 7,62NATO caliber even tho it wasn't specifically made for this environment. That means other calibers can too, potentially. So why go thru the whole process of developing a new caliber if there can be something in the market that can potentially fulfill our needs.
> 
> and how did that work out? And I don't think most people have a problem with selecting Chinese systems. It's selecting ONLY Chinese systems, be it the JF-17 and it's avionics, be it most of our tanks, be it most new Naval acquisitions from the new subs to the VLS on the Jinnah-class. Too much dependency on one source, be it the Chinese, doesn't always work out as planned, and what better example for that than our own air force following the 1965 war.


We must also keep in mind that china has greater interest in Pakistan moreover too much diversification may also lead to other problem. The best example is our atak helis from turkey which have been delayed because the engines are not being supplied by the US.
and as far as t59/69 are concerned they worked out pretty well and are still being used(and AZ can stull compete in a modern battlefield) it is also to be noted that this tank is still being used while its US m48 has been retired


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## Raja Porus

Metal 0-1 said:


> I thought it was F-16 and an AMRAAM


Nope it was the Chinese pl5 hich shot down su 30 i think amraam shot down abhinandans mig


----------



## Riz

CT-9914 "Snoop" said:


> what's the logic behind developing a new caliber when's there are multiple out in the market that can do the job?


You need to have jet engine class metal to made a world class rifle like SCAR, Beretta, AK-103 etc.. And we are way behind metal field


----------



## Metal 0-1

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Nope it was the Chinese pl5 hich shot down su 30 i think amraam shot down abhinandans mig


But Then Sqn. Ldr. Hassan Sidiqqui said other wise...


Anyways keep your self updated.


----------



## Jihadi19

Metal 0-1 said:


> But Then Sqn. Ldr. Hassan Sidiqqui said other wise...
> 
> 
> Anyways keep your self updated.


Siddiqui was flying jf17 and he shot down the su30 while noman was flying f16 and he shot down mig 21.so he's right


----------



## Metal 0-1

Jihadi19 said:


> Siddiqui was flying jf17 and he shot down the su30 while noman was flying f16 and he shot down mig 21.so he's right


Still living in fairy tale world... Listen Kid watch official documentary get your facts right.


----------



## Fusuoy

chinese small arms are not as good as there other millitary stuff not even close
for rifles we should stick to russia or europe or even america


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## Zarvan

Jihadi19 said:


> Siddiqui was flying jf17 and he shot down the su30 while noman was flying f16 and he shot down mig 21.so he's right


Siddiqui and Noman were both flying F-16. JF-17 did the bombings. But Indians planes were shot by F-16. 

And as for Rifles. They will get replaced and my source is right decision has been finally made. I have no clue which gun it is. But I am more than sure it's not indigenous.


----------



## CT-9914 "Snoop"

Desert Fox 1 said:


> We must also keep in mind that china has greater interest in Pakistan moreover too much diversification may also lead to other problem. The best example is our atak helis from turkey which have been delayed because the engines are not being supplied by the US.
> and as far as t59/69 are concerned they worked out pretty well and are still being used(and AZ can stull compete in a modern battlefield) it is also to be noted that this tank is still being used while its US m48 has been retired


Being dependent on one source doesn't really leave much room for having a strong lobby elsewhere, if it did we'd have the AH-1Zs etc. by now.


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## HostileInsurgent

Metal 0-1 said:


> So you want POF to spend time and money in RnD which they should have designed a new platform decades ago and we should be manufacturing that particular rifle.
> 
> But they find the easy way like shitty Type-56.
> 
> Chinese rifle manufacturing is not that mature. Klashinkov Concern and Fabrique National are producing high quality rifles like AK-74M now AK12 and FAL/SLR now SCAR.
> 
> FYI FN FAL OSW is still better battle rifle than G-3


The Barrel of FAL (In India they were made under license by OFB as SLRs) is very long and the gun is heavy. G3 is far better than a FAL.


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## Metal 0-1

HostileInsurgent said:


> The Barrel of FAL (In India they were made under license by OFB as SLRs) is very long and the gun is heavy. G3 is far better than a FAL.


What you know about firearms? I didn't said anything about Indian rip-off. 

FN-Herstal Belgium made FALs are legendary.

G-3 comes after FAL. 
FAL OSW is shorter version of full length battle rifle. South African Paratroopers used it.

Rhodesian made FALs even better.


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## HostileInsurgent

Metal 0-1 said:


> What you know about firearms? I didn't said anything about Indian rip-off.
> 
> FN-Herstal Belgium made FALs are legendary.
> 
> G-3 comes after FAL.
> FAL OSW is shorter version of full length battle rifle. South African Paratroopers used it.
> 
> Rhodesian made FALs even better.


It wasn’t a RIP OFF but a license variant
Had it been so bad then PUBG would have included original FAL instead of Indian SLR variant (Senseless point but who cares :p).

P.S. we still have a huge amount of Belgian made FALs still with being converted into Marksman rifles with military grade telescopic sights provided by private defence company alpha design technologies. But I am not here to fight, a G3 is much better in terms of Ergonomics and FALs are better in effectiveness.


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## Metal 0-1

HostileInsurgent said:


> It wasn’t a RIP OFF but a license variant
> Had it been so bad then PUBG would have included original FAL instead of Indian SLR variant (Senseless point but who cares :p).
> 
> P.S. we still have a huge amount of Belgian made FALs still with being converted into Marksman rifles with military grade telescopic sights provided by private defence company alpha design technologies. But I am not here to fight, a G3 is much better in terms of Ergonomics and FALs are better in effectiveness.


SLRs were first made by British and Italians.

P.S Italian SLR is in PUBG. 

Apparently you're Indian so, I have to tell you this; Your defence production can't even produce a decent rifle. Darra Gunsmiths make more better rifles than yours.

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## Bossman

Indian SLR was a FAL ripoff without full license. It was modified to prevent it from being full auto. It could only fire 3 rounds in a burst. So Indian SLR is not as effective as the original FAL.


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## Nomad40

Metal 0-1 said:


> What you know about firearms? I didn't said anything about Indian rip-off.
> 
> FN-Herstal Belgium made FALs are legendary.
> 
> G-3 comes after FAL.
> FAL OSW is shorter version of full length battle rifle. South African Paratroopers used it.
> 
> Rhodesian made FALs even better.


Rhodesia did not make FAL's they were made by South Africa--

Rhodesia used FAL's because that is what was available to them "They used what the had" 

Rhodesia also had G-3's Portuguese made in backup to the FAL's

Rhodesia only made Minor cosmetic changes because some soldier lost an eye, magazine well cutout to hide the SAF emblem and made a muzzle device (limited use) 




Still will be a proud owner of a DSA paratrooper ....BABY poop over G-3 any day.


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## HostileInsurgent

Metal 0-1 said:


> SLRs were first made by British and Italians.
> 
> P.S Italian SLR is in PUBG.
> 
> Apparently you're Indian so, I have to tell you this; Your defence production can't even produce a decent rifle. Darra Gunsmiths make more better rifles than yours.


I agree with this bitter truth that our OFB is plagued severely because it is a government body so chai biscuit culture still remains, but it doesn’t mean we wren’t making decent guns.

OFB Ghatak






SSS Defence P72 Carbine, Assault Rifle and DMR














Astr Defence Indira Modular Rifle





SSS Defence Kalashnikov SOPMOD





ARDE Assault Rifle





SSS Defence Viper (7.62x51mm NATO) and Saber ( .338 Lapua Magnum) sniper rifles





OFB JVPC





OFB CQB Carbine





OFB Battle Rifle





All these guns are new except Ghatak and JVPC so they will take time in induction otherwise there are many more guns that are license manufactured In India 🇮🇳.

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## Raja Porus

Some members are claiming that a decision has been reached so is it true

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## Fusuoy

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Some members are claiming that a decision has been reached so is it true


if true then very good
question now is what gun WAS chosen


Zarvan said:


> Siddiqui and Noman were both flying F-16. JF-17 did the bombings. But Indians planes were shot by F-16.
> 
> And as for Rifles. They will get replaced and my source is right decision has been finally made. I have no clue which gun it is. But I am more than sure it's not indigenous.


what gun was chosen, as in what was the guns name


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## Zarvan

Fusuoy said:


> if true then very good
> question now is what gun WAS chosen
> 
> what gun was chosen, as in what was the guns name


I asked the person. He has refused to reveal the name. But rest assured decision has been finalized. G3 will be replaced first.

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## Bilal.

Zarvan said:


> I asked the person. He has refused to reveal the name. But rest assured decision has been finalized. G3 will be replaced first.


Really really doubtful...


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## Raja Porus

Zarvan said:


> I asked the person. He has refused to reveal the name. But rest assured decision has been finalized. G3 will be replaced first.


Of course the g3 would be replaced first


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## Cuirassier

Zarvan said:


> I asked the person. He has refused to reveal the name. But rest assured decision has been finalized. G3 will be replaced first.


this better be true hazrat, or else I'll be calling in a couple of sorties of tomato bombs on your dwelling.

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## Zarvan

Cuirassier said:


> this better be true hazrat, or else I'll be calling in a couple of sorties of tomato bombs on your dwelling.


I myself had given up hope. I out of the blue got the message. So I am telling you what was told to me. But recent posts on this thread of Horus also indicated that the message I got was true. But I have no clue which rifle is it.

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## Metal 0-1

Why not Type-56 first? QType-56 is shitty AK rip-off. While G-3 can serve for more years.


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## Raja Porus

Metal 0-1 said:


> Why not Type-56 first? QType-56 is shitty AK rip-off. While G-3 can serve for more years.


You are right 
Are there any chances of mg42 being changed?


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## Metal 0-1

Desert Fox 1 said:


> You are right
> Are there any chances of mg42 being changed?


MG1A3

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## Raja Porus

Metal 0-1 said:


> MG3A


Not much improvement though


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## PanzerKiel

Desert Fox 1 said:


> You are right
> Are there any chances of mg42 being changed?


Many options being evaluated to replace MG1A3 (almost all upgraded to MG3 variants) we are using.

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## Sifar zero

PanzerKiel said:


> Many options being evaluated to replace MG1A3 (almost all upgraded to MG3 variants) we are using.


Any examples?


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## PanzerKiel

Sifar zero said:


> Any examples?


Too early to be specified openly. Lets wait for a while.

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## CHI RULES

PanzerKiel said:


> Too early to be specified openly. Lets wait for a while.



Sir though G3 replacement looks to be clear in future, what is your opinion about AK variant as it looks more rugged and can remain operational even in most harsh conditions. Your personal opinion request on AK, further what was the performance of Chinese clones being used in PA/Rangers and other agencies.

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## Fusuoy

CHI RULES said:


> Sir though G3 replacement looks to be clear in future, what is your opinion about AK variant as it looks more rugged and can remain operational even in most harsh conditions. Your personal opinion request on AK, further what was the performance of Chinese clones being used in PA/Rangers and other agencies.


simple
we use the newer russian AKs


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## PanzerKiel

CHI RULES said:


> Sir though G3 replacement looks to be clear in future, what is your opinion about AK variant as it looks more rugged and can remain operational even in most harsh conditions. Your personal opinion request on AK, further what was the performance of Chinese clones being used in PA/Rangers and other agencies.


I loved my original Type 56 so much. The Type 56-II variant being made by us comes nowhere near the Chinese Type 56.

I would love to go anywhere with the original Chinese Type 56.

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## Fusuoy

Zarvan said:


> I asked the person. He has refused to reveal the name. But rest assured decision has been finalized. G3 will be replaced first.


why wont they reveal the name? it isnt highly claaififed infp
could you atleast say if its ar 10 platform or not


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## Raja Porus

PanzerKiel said:


> I loved my original Type 56 so much. The Type 56-II variant being made by us comes nowhere near the Chinese Type 56.
> 
> I would love to go anywhere with the original Chinese Type 56.


They were almost identical to the original Russian ones

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## Scorpiooo

Questions is that whatever will be selected should come with full ToT.

Second question is must to choose only one plateform to arm all branches of our military and para military forces


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## Waiting

Plz keep in mind Belarus... and guess what we can get through belarus


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## Zarvan

Waiting said:


> Plz keep in mind Belarus... and guess what we can get through belarus


Why are you repeating over and over again about Belarus ???

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## TheDarkKnight

PanzerKiel said:


> I loved my original Type 56 so much. The Type 56-II variant being made by us comes nowhere near the Chinese Type 56.
> 
> I would love to go anywhere with the original Chinese Type 56.


What are the issues? And why POF is not capable enough to get the technology for such a simple rifle from China?

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## Armchair

The metallurgy for making guns is reasonably simple. Even small countries like UAE, Singapore and Israel have been making and exporting their guns for decades.

The main problem is POF is incompetently run. And Pak lacks metallurgists working on guns, and a general weakness in metallurgy.

The key is heat treatment of the guns post manufacture. The steal isn't something high tech. It is the heat treatment that gives the added strength. It takes hours to make a gun but days and sometimes weaks of heat treatment to get the barrels to the highest level of strength.

The reason the Chinese made good guns before in the type 56 and now make rubbish is because that huge extra time in heat treatment is were they took a short cut.

I have to explain these baby issues because understanding of metallurgy is extremely poor in the Muslim world in general.
@PanzerKiel

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## PanzerKiel

Armchair said:


> The metallurgy for making guns is reasonably simple. Even small countries like UAE, Singapore and Israel have been making and exporting their guns for decades.
> 
> The main problem is POF is incompetently run. And Pak lacks metallurgists working on guns, and a general weakness in metallurgy.
> 
> The key is heat treatment of the guns post manufacture. The steal isn't something high tech. It is the heat treatment that gives the added strength. It takes hours to make a gun but days and sometimes weaks of heat treatment to get the barrels to the highest level of strength.
> 
> The reason the Chinese made good guns before in the type 56 and now make rubbish is because that huge extra time in heat treatment is were they took a short cut.
> 
> I have to explain these baby issues because understanding of metallurgy is extremely poor in the Muslim world in general.
> @PanzerKiel


Amply highlighted dear. Metallurgy is the main problem with POF. One can get an idea from the fact that how many universities in Pakistan teach this very important subject.

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## fitpOsitive

PanzerKiel said:


> Amply highlighted dear. Metallurgy is the main problem with POF. One can get an idea from the fact that how many universities in Pakistan teach this very important subject.


1 or 2. 1 I know with surety.

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## Arsalan

fitpOsitive said:


> 1 or 2. 1 I know with surety.


Dear, Bachelors degree in metallurgy is offered by 9 - 10 universities!


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## fitpOsitive

Arsalan said:


> Dear, Bachelors degree in metallurgy is offered by 9 - 10 universities!


Material sciences, not matallurgy.

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## Arsalan

fitpOsitive said:


> Material sciences, not matallurgy.


Material Science is in 10+ universities.
Metallurgy in 7-9 universities.

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## Armchair

PanzerKiel said:


> Amply highlighted dear. Metallurgy is the main problem with POF. One can get an idea from the fact that how many universities in Pakistan teach this very important subject.



Very true. Not a single Pak university program in metallurgy is recognized abroad. However, AQ Khan is a metallurgist and there are at least two dozen other metallurgists with foreign degrees working with various state institutions... you may want to better utilize them.

University degrees aside, I know the basic formula of how to do heat treatment on guns... I can simply PM them to you. It's not rocket science, has been around for a hundred years or so... you will see really old quality guns even with the PA...

Also, dearest friend, even if you produce a hundred book-learned, rote learned metallurgists it is useless. You need people who actually know their stuff and can do them in the real world, not great memorizers and parrots.


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## Inception-06

PanzerKiel said:


> Amply highlighted dear. Metallurgy is the main problem with POF. One can get an idea from the fact that how many universities in Pakistan teach this very important subject.


If there are a Programm and interest, the requirement for this then I am available, I would even start now, just need the money, but I guess there is not really any interest for such things.


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## Zarvan

PanzerKiel said:


> Amply highlighted dear. Metallurgy is the main problem with POF. One can get an idea from the fact that how many universities in Pakistan teach this very important subject.


Sir I know the decision has been made. So when to expect the announcement or Rifle being revealed like VT 4.

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## gangsta_rap

Armchair said:


> I have to explain these baby issues because understanding of metallurgy is extremely poor in the Muslim world in general.












Muhammad Saleh Thattvi - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


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## Raja Porus

So, any new development?

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## That Guy

Desert Fox 1 said:


> So, any new development?


Nope. Apparently, according to @Zarvan a decision has been made, but no confirmation.

I doubt we'll see anything any time soon, even if it is true.

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## Zarvan

That Guy said:


> Nope. Apparently, according to @Zarvan a decision has been made, but no confirmation.
> 
> I doubt we'll see anything any time soon, even if it is true.


I think Rifle would get revealed just like VT 4 was revealed.


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## Ahmet Pasha

Zarvan said:


> I think Rifle would get revealed just like VT 4 was revealed.


Scar?? Or smthn else?


----------



## That Guy

Zarvan said:


> I think Rifle would get revealed just like VT 4 was revealed.


probably, keep in mind, it could be years before we hear anything, even if an decision has been made. It may take up to decade to replace Pakistan's current standard rifle with the new ones. Pakistan has huge army, and issuing a new stand rifle is going to be extremely difficult.



Ahmet Pasha said:


> Scar?? Or smthn else?


Probably not the Scar. I'm betting it's either the Bren, or the AK.


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## Zarvan

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Scar?? Or smthn else?


No clue


Ahmet Pasha said:


> Scar?? Or smthn else?


No clue


----------



## retaxis

Which guns were considered?


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## Reichmarshal

my bet is on the AK 103


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## Bossman




----------



## Metal 0-1

Wish AK-12 should have been inducted by Pakistani Military. 5.45x39 a more potent round as compared to 7.62x39.

But we have to flip whole infrastructure of 7.62x39 already being produced. So AK-15 is good choice. More modular and lighter.

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## CrazyZ

Metal 0-1 said:


> Wish AK-12 should have been inducted by Pakistani Military. 5.45x39 a more potent round as compared to 7.62x39.
> 
> But we have to flip whole infrastructure of 7.62x39 already being produced. So AK-15 is good choice. More modular and lighter.


Lighter bullets (5.45x39 and 5.56x45mm) struggle to penetrate modern body armor. PA is correct to retain the 7.62 rounds for most applications.

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## Metal 0-1

CrazyZ said:


> Lighter bullets (5.45x39 and 5.56x45mm) struggle to penetrate modern body armor. PA is correct to retain the 7.62 rounds for most applications.


Lighter bullets actually penetrate more than heavier. 

Take 9mm for example. NATO decided to use more potent rounds for PDWs which have good penetration so they weapon manufacturers produced 4.6x30mm used in HK-MP-7 and 5.7x28 which is used in FN-P90 and FN-Five Seven. US and some other countries went for 300Blk weapon system like Q-Honey Badger and Sig MCX.

7.62x39 have more stopping power than pentration. Means it will have huge punch and take out big chunk. But on the other hand lighter bottleneck rounds will leave a clean hole and more penetration. That's why Russia is shifting to 5.45x39.


----------



## CrazyZ

Metal 0-1 said:


> Lighter bullets actually penetrate more than heavier.
> 
> Take 9mm for example. NATO decided to use more potent rounds for PDWs which have good penetration so they weapon manufacturers produced 4.6x30mm used in HK-MP-7 and 5.7x28 which is used in FN-P90 and FN-Five Seven. US and some other countries went for 300Blk weapon system like Q-Honey Badger and Sig MCX.
> 
> 7.62x39 have more stopping power than pentration. Means it will have huge punch and take out big chunk. But on the other hand lighter bottleneck rounds will leave a clean hole and more penetration. That's why Russia is shifting to 5.45x39.



*The U.S. Army Is Developing a Better Bullet*
The new 6.8-millimeter bullet will equip a new generation of army carbines, squad automatic weapons.





BY KYLE MIZOKAMI
OCT 29, 2019





U.S. ARMY NATIONAL GUARD PHOTO BY SGT. DAVID BEDARD

The U.S. Army is on the verge of retiring the Vietnam-era 5.56-millimeter caliber bullet.
The Army believes the older bullet has insufficient range, armor penetrating power.
The new bullet and gun combination will shoot farther, penetrate thicker armor, and weigh less, likely involving new technologies to help the service reach its goals.
The U.S. Army is finally poised to field a new bullet designed to penetrate body armor at greater ranges. The new round is part of an overall shift towards big power warfare, where combat against adversaries such as the Chinese or Russian armies could lead to soldiers squaring off with enemies fielding the latest body armor. The new 6.8 millimeter round will arm the new Next Generation Squad Weapons, the upcoming replacements for the M4A1 carbine and M249 squad automatic weapon.

In 1965 the U.S. Army began purchasing M16 rifles. The M16 was lighter than existing rifles and used a lighter 5.56-millimeter (.223 inch) caliber bullet. Although the new bullet was smaller it had less recoil, making it more controllable during full automatic fire. It was also lighter, enabling soldiers to carry more bullets per pound than the older 7.62-millimeter round.

The U.S. Army believes the 5.56-millimeter caliber is slowly growing obsolete. Today’s M855A1 Enhanced Performance Round, or “green tip ammo,” is designed to penetrate body armor while still causing incapacitating wounds. Performance is mixed, with reports that the new M855A1 round tumbles requires a greater travel distances within the human body to begin tumbling. The service believes that the 5.56 caliber is pretty much maxed out and it needs a new round to overmatch future body armors.

According to Military.com the Army is settling on a new, slightly larger caliber: 6.8-millimeter (.267 inch). A new, larger diameter cartridge could pack more gunpowder in the casing, creating greater chamber pressures in pounds per square inch to drive a bullet downrange. This in turn means a higher velocity bullet and a greater ability to penetrate steel, ceramic, and other armors.

The 6.8-millimeter bullet is reportedly very similar to the M855A1, consisting of a “consisting of an exposed steel penetrator that sits on top of a copper slug and is partially encased in a copper jacket.” The bullet is designed for speed and armor penetration, meaning features such as a hollow point for wound channel expansion, explosive tips, or any exotic gimmick is out of the question.

Exactly how that bullet is integrated into the gun differs among the three companies--General Dynamics/True Velocity, Textron, and Sig Sauer competing for the Next Generation Squad Weapons contract. The Army is demanding that each new 6.8 round weigh 30 percent less than a traditional brass cased round. The General Dynamics/True Velocity system replaces the brass shell casing with a lighter composite. Textron uses a so-called cased telescoped round, in which the bullet is encased in a lightweight plastic casing. Sig Sauer is going with a hybrid brass and steel casing.

The U.S. Army plans to equip its first combat unit with the new bullet in 2023.





__





The U.S. Army Is Developing a Better Bullet


The new 6.8-millimeter bullet will equip a new generation of army carbines, squad automatic weapons.




www.popularmechanics.com


----------



## Metal 0-1

CrazyZ said:


> *The U.S. Army Is Developing a Better Bullet*
> The new 6.8-millimeter bullet will equip a new generation of army carbines, squad automatic weapons.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BY KYLE MIZOKAMI
> OCT 29, 2019
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> U.S. ARMY NATIONAL GUARD PHOTO BY SGT. DAVID BEDARD
> 
> The U.S. Army is on the verge of retiring the Vietnam-era 5.56-millimeter caliber bullet.
> The Army believes the older bullet has insufficient range, armor penetrating power.
> The new bullet and gun combination will shoot farther, penetrate thicker armor, and weigh less, likely involving new technologies to help the service reach its goals.
> The U.S. Army is finally poised to field a new bullet designed to penetrate body armor at greater ranges. The new round is part of an overall shift towards big power warfare, where combat against adversaries such as the Chinese or Russian armies could lead to soldiers squaring off with enemies fielding the latest body armor. The new 6.8 millimeter round will arm the new Next Generation Squad Weapons, the upcoming replacements for the M4A1 carbine and M249 squad automatic weapon.
> 
> In 1965 the U.S. Army began purchasing M16 rifles. The M16 was lighter than existing rifles and used a lighter 5.56-millimeter (.223 inch) caliber bullet. Although the new bullet was smaller it had less recoil, making it more controllable during full automatic fire. It was also lighter, enabling soldiers to carry more bullets per pound than the older 7.62-millimeter round.
> 
> The U.S. Army believes the 5.56-millimeter caliber is slowly growing obsolete. Today’s M855A1 Enhanced Performance Round, or “green tip ammo,” is designed to penetrate body armor while still causing incapacitating wounds. Performance is mixed, with reports that the new M855A1 round tumbles requires a greater travel distances within the human body to begin tumbling. The service believes that the 5.56 caliber is pretty much maxed out and it needs a new round to overmatch future body armors.
> 
> According to Military.com the Army is settling on a new, slightly larger caliber: 6.8-millimeter (.267 inch). A new, larger diameter cartridge could pack more gunpowder in the casing, creating greater chamber pressures in pounds per square inch to drive a bullet downrange. This in turn means a higher velocity bullet and a greater ability to penetrate steel, ceramic, and other armors.
> 
> The 6.8-millimeter bullet is reportedly very similar to the M855A1, consisting of a “consisting of an exposed steel penetrator that sits on top of a copper slug and is partially encased in a copper jacket.” The bullet is designed for speed and armor penetration, meaning features such as a hollow point for wound channel expansion, explosive tips, or any exotic gimmick is out of the question.
> 
> Exactly how that bullet is integrated into the gun differs among the three companies--General Dynamics/True Velocity, Textron, and Sig Sauer competing for the Next Generation Squad Weapons contract. The Army is demanding that each new 6.8 round weigh 30 percent less than a traditional brass cased round. The General Dynamics/True Velocity system replaces the brass shell casing with a lighter composite. Textron uses a so-called cased telescoped round, in which the bullet is encased in a lightweight plastic casing. Sig Sauer is going with a hybrid brass and steel casing.
> 
> The U.S. Army plans to equip its first combat unit with the new bullet in 2023.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The U.S. Army Is Developing a Better Bullet
> 
> 
> The new 6.8-millimeter bullet will equip a new generation of army carbines, squad automatic weapons.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.popularmechanics.com


Are we compairing 5.56 & 6.8?
OR
5.56/5.45x39 & 7.62x39?


----------



## Sine Nomine

Armchair said:


> The main problem is POF is incompetently run. And Pak lacks metallurgists working on guns, and a general weakness in metallurgy.


Your first point is valid but second one
is incorrect,POF lacks good gunsmiths and small arms dev team.
Metallurgy comes after you have designed a working system.



Armchair said:


> The key is heat treatment of the guns post manufacture. The steal isn't something high tech. It is the heat treatment that gives the added strength. It takes hours to make a gun but days and sometimes weaks of heat treatment to get the barrels to the highest level of strength.


No gun part is heat treated after manufacturing,this happens before a part of metal can even be called a gun part.
A part is manufactured from either stamping a metal sheet,machining it out from block of solid metal or puring molten metal into dye.
Barrel is manufactured out of a solid steel blank either machined or hammer forged.
After manufacturing of different parts,parts are put togather to make a gun.


----------



## Neurath

G3 should be replaced with another battle rifle like HK417 or FN Scar H, as battle rifles generally provide advantages, especially on border skirmishes on the LOC.

Type 56 can be replaced with anything more modern in the AK platform, and according to the knowledge available, the Pakistan Army is most probably going for AK-103.
(Personally I'd prefer AK-15.)


----------



## fitpOsitive

Neurath said:


> G3 should be replaced with another battle rifle like HK417 or FN Scar H, as battle rifles generally provide advantages, especially on border skirmishes on the LOC.
> 
> Type 56 can be replaced with anything more modern in the AK platform, and according to the knowledge available, the Pakistan Army is most probably going for AK-103.
> (Personally I'd prefer AK-15.)


No German rifles for Pakistan. 
And in AK series, 107 is so far the best, in assault catagory (my opinion). In general, rifles by Italy are also not bad.


----------



## Neurath

fitpOsitive said:


> No German rifles for Pakistan.
> And in AK series, 107 is so far the best, in assault catagory (my opinion). In general, rifles by Italy are also not bad.


I know that we aren't buying anything German but, is Germany not selling us weapons anymore?
And yes, the Beretta ARX200 is a good replacement as a battle rifle.


----------



## Mrc

What happened to local product? Why not work with friends on that

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## fitpOsitive

Neurath said:


> I know that we aren't buying anything German but, is Germany not selling us weapons anymore?
> And yes, the Beretta ARX200 is a good replacement as a battle rifle.


Germany announced that no more H&K rifles for NON-EU. So forget it. And luckily we have other better choices.

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## Metal 0-1

Neurath said:


> G3 should be replaced with another battle rifle like HK417 or FN Scar H, as battle rifles generally provide advantages, especially on border skirmishes on the LOC.
> 
> Type 56 can be replaced with anything more modern in the AK platform, and according to the knowledge available, the Pakistan Army is most probably going for AK-103.
> (Personally I'd prefer AK-15.)


More reasonable 7.62x52 NATO platform would be MPT-76.

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## Neurath

Metal 0-1 said:


> More reasonable 7.62x52 NATO platform would be MPT-76.


MPT-76 is again yes a battle rifle.
However its record is uncertain, it still hasn't entered in service with the Turkish Army even completely.
I doubt that we'll be able to get our hands on it but Pakistan has expressed interest in it. Lets see.


----------



## Metal 0-1

Neurath said:


> MPT-76 is again yes a battle rifle.
> However its record is uncertain, it still hasn't entered in service with the Turkish Army even completely.
> I doubt that we'll be able to get our hands on it but Pakistan has expressed interest in it. Lets see.


Then Mutant G-3 PK-18 it is.


----------



## Neurath

Metal 0-1 said:


> Then Mutant G-3 PK-18 it is.


I'm not dismissing it mate. It is a good gun, all I'm saying is we should wait 2-3 years and see how reliable it is before considering it.


----------



## Metal 0-1

Neurath said:


> I'm not dismissing it mate. It is a good gun, all I'm saying is we should wait 2-3 years and see how reliable it is before considering it.


Yes they should wait for 2-3 years. But are we speaking 2-3 years form now? Or after 10 years? because there is no progress by POF on their battle rifle concept. Not even a single unit has been given lighter and compact variants of G-3 for tests let alone PK-18.


Neurath said:


> MPT-76 is again yes a battle rifle.
> However its record is uncertain, it still hasn't entered in service with the Turkish Army even completely.
> I doubt that we'll be able to get our hands on it but Pakistan has expressed interest in it. Lets see.


Just read MPT-76 and MPT-55 are in service by regular troops and commandos in Syria.

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## TheDarkKnight

Zarvan said:


> Sir I know the decision has been made. So when to expect the announcement or Rifle being revealed like VT 4.


What is the decision bhai? Continued use and improvement of G3?
I would personally like Turk mpt76.


----------



## Zarvan

TheDarkKnight said:


> What is the decision bhai? Continued use and improvement of G3?
> I would personally like Turk mpt76.


Decision on going for new assault rifle. Which one that I don't know.


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## xbat

464 pages with result of big ZERO. reminds me our new gen destroyer, Turkish new AAW frigate was named TF2000 in the 90s, after 25 years of dream we still hope to see them in our navy, pity.

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## khanasifm

xbat said:


> 464 pages with result of big ZERO. reminds me our new gen destroyer, Turkish new AAW frigate was named TF2000 in the 90s, after 25 years of dream we still hope to see them in our navy, pity.


$$$

needed 500/700k new rifles replacement and is not cheap first economy and welfare of masses than wish list for military


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## GriffinsRule

khanasifm said:


> $$$
> 
> needed 500/700k new rifles replacement and is not cheap first economy and welfare of masses than wish list for military


Thus the argument for building your own at your own pace.


----------



## Vapour

PanzerKiel said:


> Strictly speaking, both are 7.62....which shows our emphasis on a heavy bullet able to inflict massive damage...
> 
> one of my SSG mates, he lost an eye due to 5.56...he had M4.....a firefight had just ended, all the enemy dead were hit by SSG's M4.....suddenly one of the guys (despite getting about 4 shots in his torso), in his dying throes, managed to let loose a shot towards my mate who detected him at the same time.....both fired at the same time, my mate lost his eye, the other lost his life finally.....
> 
> 7.62 has advantages, it packs a massive punch......good for strong defence.



Found the following clip, the incident is mentioned midway through:

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## Path-Finder

I feel an imbalance in the force!! Hazrat @Zarvan 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1334094149717549058

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1334099911906824193==================================

EDIT NOTHING CHANGED


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1334106186065514497


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> I feel an imbalance in the force!! Hazrat @Zarvan
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1334094149717549058
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1334099911906824193==================================
> 
> EDIT NOTHING CHANGED
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1334106186065514497


Several guns performed great but over all performance was of SCAR. I didn't made this up I am just telling you the results. One other great performer was Bren.Berrtea was also good but I have heard it had slight accuracy issue. MPT 76 performance results were surprising and they were told to me by @PanzerKiel on this very thread.

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## Panzertruppe

Zarvan said:


> Several guns performed great but over all performance was of SCAR. I didn't made this up I am just telling you the results. One other great performer was Bren.Berrtea was also good but I have heard it had slight accuracy issue. MPT 76 performance results were surprising and they were told to me by @PanzerKiel on this very thread.


By surprising you mean?


----------



## Path-Finder

Panzertruppe said:


> By surprising you mean?





Zarvan said:


> Several guns performed great but over all performance was of SCAR. I didn't made this up I am just telling you the results. One other great performer was Bren.Berrtea was also good but I have heard it had slight accuracy issue. MPT 76 performance results were surprising and they were told to me by @PanzerKiel on this very thread.


yea and you have been telling us forever. but we know your bias towards it as well!


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## Raja Porus

Path-Finder said:


> yea and you have been telling us forever. but we know your bias towards it as well!


Actually everyone is biased towards the SCAR. It is a beautiful rifle

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## Path-Finder

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Actually everyone is biased towards the SCAR. It is a beautiful rifle


so beautiful, that it got placed back on the shelf.


----------



## Metal 0-1

Path-Finder said:


> so beautiful, that it got placed back on the shelf.


Because of the cost..

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## Path-Finder

Metal 0-1 said:


> Because of the cost..


no because its shoddy!

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## Metal 0-1

Path-Finder said:


> no because its shoddy!


Might wanna tell your point.

I watched a video too in which a former Navy SEAL rants about SCAR 17.

In other video a Green Beret loved it. His time in the military with SCAR was good.

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## Path-Finder

Metal 0-1 said:


> Might wanna tell your point.
> 
> I watched a video too in which a former Navy SEAL rants about SCAR 17.
> 
> In other video a Green Beret loved it. His time in the military with SCAR was good.


well here is the thing, SCAR was initiated for US military and their special units. they adopted it and then returned back to their AR platform! why is that? SCAR was the future that pretty much replaced AR platform but AR returned and where is SCAR in US service now?

The lovers of SCAR don't like answering this question its not like budgetary restraints were the issue for the US!

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> well here is the thing, SCAR was initiated for US military and their special units. they adopted it and then returned back to their AR platform! why is that? SCAR was the future that pretty much replaced AR platform but AR returned and where is SCAR in US service now?
> 
> The lovers of SCAR don't like answering this question its not like budgetary restraints were the issue for the US!


They returned not because SCAR had issue but because they were not willing to spend money. I have only heard issue of money from them not that SCAR has issue. And don't tell me USA budget I know what it's but that is the reason they give. And if SCAR performed better over all, I am not going to change the results or lie about the results to please you

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> They returned not because SCAR had issue but because they were not willing to spend money. I have only heard issue of money from them not that SCAR has issue. And don't tell me USA budget I know what it's but that is the reason they give. And if SCAR performed better over all, I am not going to change the results or lie about the results to please you


Hazrat you live on your tree and let us stay on ground. So the US cannot afford to buy SCAR for its special units who by the way choose their own weapons and don't have to abide by what regulars get given.

Then backed by the fact that SCAR was a program for their special forces who adopted and then discarded the rifle. let me say this again they adopted used and shelved them. Returned to better AR rifles.

That is a short lived history of FN SCAR and the SCAR programme, after that FN tried to sell it to other nations but still not widely adopted. 

BUT after years of arguing we know that sense and sensibility leaves you completely when it comes to FN SCAR.

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## mingle

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat you live on your tree and let us stay on ground. So the US cannot afford to buy SCAR for its special units who by the way choose their own weapons and don't have to abide by what regulars get given.
> 
> Then backed by the fact that SCAR was a program for their special forces who adopted and then discarded the rifle. let me say this again they adopted used and shelved them. Returned to better AR rifles.
> 
> That is a short lived history of FN SCAR and the SCAR programme, after that FN tried to sell it to other nations but still not widely adopted.
> 
> BUT after years of arguing we know that sense and sensibility leaves you completely when it comes to FN SCAR.


So which rifle PA is adopting? I heard AK103?


----------



## Zarvan

mingle said:


> So which rifle PA is adopting? I heard AK103?


Nothing is final yet. There are rumors and only rumors. I am waiting for Sir @PanzerKiel to break the news when he gets permission from top leadership.

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## Metal 0-1

Path-Finder said:


> well here is the thing, SCAR was initiated for US military and their special units. they adopted it and then returned back to their AR platform! why is that? SCAR was the future that pretty much replaced AR platform but AR returned and where is SCAR in US service now?
> 
> The lovers of SCAR don't like answering this question its not like budgetary restraints were the issue for the US!

















For the record I am not SCAR fanboy.


----------



## Neurath

Zarvan said:


> Nothing is final yet. There are rumors and only rumors. I am waiting for Sir @PanzerKiel to break the news when he gets permission from top leadership.


Is it going to be 2 rifles? One to replace the G3 and one for the Type 56 or the same to replace both?

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## SD 10

Man i am watching this thread for so long and still nothing

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## Zarvan

Neurath said:


> Is it going to be 2 rifles? One to replace the G3 and one for the Type 56 or the same to replace both?


I have no clue. I stopped getting news a year and half ago. One news which I got recently was that decision has been made, and G 3 will be first one to go. Now which Rifle is it ? I have no idea.

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## Neurath

Zarvan said:


> I have no clue. I stopped getting news a year and half ago. One news which I got recently was that decision has been made, and G 3 will be first one to go. Now which Rifle is it ? I have no idea.


If they don't choose 2 rifles though, that would be a horrible decision. We need both battle rifles and assualt rifles in active service in the army.

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## Zarvan

Neurath said:


> If they don't choose 2 rifles though, that would be a horrible decision. We need both battle rifles and assualt rifles in active service in the army.


You are saying two Rifles, I say they should choose two Rifle families. From that what I mean is let say SCAR is one big family. There is SCAR H and there is SCAR L and there is SCAR subcompact and SCAR Sniper version. We should produce all of them. Same should go for BREN or some other series.

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## HostileInsurgent

Zarvan said:


> You are saying two Rifles, I say they should choose two Rifle families. From that what I mean is let say SCAR is one big family. There is SCAR H and there is SCAR L and there is SCAR subcompact and SCAR Sniper version. We should produce all of them. Same should go for BREN or some other series.


SCAR-H is a very good rifle but Damn expensive. SCAR-L isn’t an impressive gun and I would prefer a regular AR-15 pattern rifle.


----------



## Path-Finder

Metal 0-1 said:


> For the record I am not SCAR fanboy.


weather you like or dislike something that is your personal prerogative! That is your right. BUT fanboyism is just pure shoddy-ism.





caution this may not be suitable for Hazarat @Zarvan

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## Raja Porus

My personal assessment is that we will go for the Bren. It can be easily incorporated into the army, are cheaper, have better specs, use the same caliber, and the ToT will not be an issue, in fact as an LoU has already been signed bw pof and CZ according to which we will slowly shift from light assembly to complete production of the weapon. Most importantly it looks good which the people usually want and the army too as it would give a modern touch. A beautiful rifle might prove to be a poor man's SCAR

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## Metal 0-1

Path-Finder said:


> weather you like or dislike something that is your personal prerogative! That is your right. BUT fanboyism is just pure shoddy-ism.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> caution this may not be suitable for Hazarat @Zarvan


Yes, Bren is great option. Bren-2 807 (7.62x39) is a perfect replacement for Type-56.

Bren 2 BR(7.62x51 NATO), Battle Riflecan be the replacement of G-3.





Maybe we can pick some gear for our SOF from CZ too.


----------



## Path-Finder

Metal 0-1 said:


> Yes, Bren is great option. Bren-2 807 (7.62x39) is a perfect replacement for Type-56.
> 
> Bren 2 BR(7.62x51 NATO), Battle Riflecan be the replacement of G-3.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe we can pick some gear for our SOF from CZ too.


and MEOPTA optics. if we go for Beretta then steiner optics.


----------



## Metal 0-1

Path-Finder said:


> and MEOPTA optics. if we go for Beretta then steiner optics.


Pakistan Military Optics selection is always lame.

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## Zarvan

Desert Fox 1 said:


> My personal assessment is that we will go for the Bren. It can be easily incorporated into the army, are cheaper, have better specs, use the same caliber, and the ToT will not be an issue, in fact as an LoU has already been signed bw pof and CZ according to which we will slowly shift from light assembly to complete production of the weapon. Most importantly it looks good which the people usually want and the army too as it would give a modern touch. A beautiful rifle might prove to be a poor man's SCAR


In my opinion two Rifle series should come. Yes BREN should come and either AK new rifles with it or some other Rifle series. May be Turkish. As we have Police to equip also.


----------



## Metal 0-1

Path-Finder said:


> and MEOPTA optics. if we go for Beretta then steiner optics.


Primary Arms Raptor 1-6x and Prism 2x are perfect.


----------



## Raja Porus

Zarvan said:


> In my opinion two Rifle series should come. Yes BREN should come and either AK new rifles with it or some other Rifle series. May be Turkish. As we have Police to equip also.


Has a common tender been issued for both army and police ? Police need not be equipped with these expensive weapons, first their training , education (especially moral)And more importantly their administrative structure should be improved .Moreover they will find it difficult to use and manage, I think that the type 56 will be and should be given to them, it is not about neglecting them but it is the best way forward considering their present condition,responsibilities and compatibility

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## Zarvan

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Has a common tender been issued for both army and police ? Police need not be equipped with these expensive weapons, first their training , education (especially moral)And more importantly their administrative structure should be improved .Moreover they will find it difficult to use and manage, I think that the type 56 will be and should be given to them, it is not about neglecting them but it is the best way forward considering their present condition,responsibilities and compatibility


Police doesn't need to give tender. When Rifles will come with TOT. Police will automatically start getting as their production in Pakistan begins.

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## Path-Finder

Metal 0-1 said:


> Primary Arms Raptor 1-6x and Prism 2x are perfect.


MEOPTA make glass for Aimpoint and they are a century old glass maker! Steiner is a legendary Glass maker that has been at it since the 18th century!! others simply dont come close..


----------



## Metal 0-1

Path-Finder said:


> MEOPTA make glass for Aimpoint and they are a century old glass maker! Steiner is a legendary Glass maker that has been at it since the 18th century!! others simply dont come close..


Don't wanna start an argument but Elcan, Trijicon, Aimpoint, Vortex, Holsun, Eo-Tech are leading optics manufacturers.


----------



## Path-Finder

Metal 0-1 said:


> Don't wanna start an argument but Elcan, Trijicon, Aimpoint, Vortex, Holsun, Eo-Tech are leading optics manufacturers.


do they make all their own parts or do they source them? I already told you about MEOPTA making glass for aimpoint!


----------



## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> do they make all their own parts or do they source them? I already told you about MEOPTA making glass for aimpoint!


For scopes our best option is Turkey. Turkey has several companies which is making dam good optics and scopes for Rifles plus they are getting better and better with time. 

@Hakikat ve Hikmet @cabatli_53


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## Raja Porus

Zarvan said:


> For scopes our best option is Turkey. Turkey has several companies which is making dam good optics and scopes for Rifles plus they are getting better and better with time.
> 
> @Hakikat ve Hikmet @cabatli_53


Yep,and also MEOPTA and stiener are pretty exp as well

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## Path-Finder

discussing these rifles like SCAR is living in the past. its hard fact as a whole new concept and tech is being sought that makes what we are discussing look like something from the 19th century! The SCAR has been dumped and recycled by the US military and new contenders are incoming. sorry SCAR lovers

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## Bilal.

Path-Finder said:


> discussing these rifles like SCAR is living in the past. its hard fact as a whole new concept and tech is being sought that makes what we are discussing look like something from the 19th century! The SCAR has been dumped and recycled by the US military and new contenders are incoming. sorry SCAR lovers


That’s why we should wait and adopt a modern calibre relevant for the next half century plus and not the ones that are on their way out.

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## Path-Finder

Path-Finder said:


> discussing these rifles like SCAR is living in the past. its hard fact as a whole new concept and tech is being sought that makes what we are discussing look like something from the 19th century! The SCAR has been dumped and recycled by the US military and new contenders are incoming. sorry SCAR lovers


Hazrat @Zarvan SCAR needs to be defended


----------



## Path-Finder

this is no longer the future but the present.


----------



## Metal 0-1

Who is @Zarvan now.


Path-Finder said:


> this is no longer the future but the present.


----------



## Mohammad huzaifa kiani

Fusuoy said:


> ask me we shoudl replace type 56 with ak 103 but wait for the NGSW trials to be completed to see the preformance of those rounds as they might be a better choice then a new rifle in 308
> as the rounds submitted are prettyh hight tech stuff with polymer casing


we can just copy sig mcx spear


Path-Finder said:


> this is no longer the future but the present.


quiet nice but our soldiers don't even have normal scopes


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## Path-Finder

Mohammad huzaifa kiani said:


> quiet nice but our soldiers don't even have normal scopes


ah who told you that?


Metal 0-1 said:


> Who is @Zarvan now.


do you mean where? and please respect the man its Hazrat @Zarvan


----------



## Vapnope

4 years and we still haven't done anything on it. This indicates how much procurement is messy in Pakistan. Terrible


----------



## Yasser76

Vapnope said:


> 4 years and we still haven't done anything on it. This indicates how much procurement is messy in Pakistan. Terrible



Projects by Pak Mil can get completed very quickly. It is not a procurement issue, it is clearly a funding issue.


----------



## Zarvan

Yasser76 said:


> Projects by Pak Mil can get completed very quickly. It is not a procurement issue, it is clearly a funding issue.


You are buying VT 4 and Artillery and MRAP and several other systems but you still have funding issue ???


Yasser76 said:


> Projects by Pak Mil can get completed very quickly. It is not a procurement issue, it is clearly a funding issue.


You are buying VT 4 and Artillery and MRAP and several other systems but you still have funding issue ???


----------



## Yasser76

Zarvan said:


> You are buying VT 4 and Artillery and MRAP and several other systems but you still have funding issue ???
> 
> You are buying VT 4 and Artillery and MRAP and several other systems but you still have funding issue ???



Brother, just because we buy some of what we need does not mean we have unlimited money. If you buy milk and bread, may still mean you had no money for eggs. Your post does not make sense.

Army took decision that new tanks and proper protection for troops in FATA was a priority over new rifles. Also please note VT-4 would be subsidised and MRAP given to us as free EDA. New rifles will be our own money


----------



## Zarvan

Yasser76 said:


> Brother, just because we buy some of what we need does not mean we have unlimited money. If you buy milk and bread, may still mean you had no money for eggs. Your post does not make sense.
> 
> Army took decision that new tanks and proper protection for troops in FATA was a priority over new rifles. Also please note VT-4 would be subsidised and MRAP given to us as free EDA. New rifles will be our own money


Money was not the issue. We didn't started Rifle trials without calculating every move. Issue was one or two Guns which we liked their companies were not agreeing to local production.


----------



## Yasser76

Zarvan said:


> Money was not the issue. We didn't started Rifle trials without calculating every move. Issue was one or two Guns which we liked their companies were not agreeing to local production.



You know that for 100% certainty?


----------



## python-000

What about this from Russia...


----------



## faani83

can PA incorporate or get smart shooter technology from another source whenever a decision is made for a new gun for infantry ? It would give a real boost to infantry.

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## retaxis

Will Pak once again buy a Chinese rifle like the 56? Pak buys a lot of Chinese weaponry so its not out of the question actually probably more likely than any other rifles. The new QBZ 191 seems to be very future proof and through strenuous testing seems to be a very legit rifle.

*Standard-issue version of China’s QBZ-191 assault rifle revealed*
Posted on April 15, 2020 by CAS editor — 1 Comment ↓




Since China’s new assault rifle appeared at the National Day military parade last year, which is likely named *QBZ-191* or *QBZ-19*, it hasn’t been reported for a long time, but recently a video on the development team of the new rifle was released on the Chinese internet, and the standard-issue version of this new rifle is finally unveiled.
In this video, different versions of the *QBZ-191* rifle make a quite complete family. Last year at the military parade we saw only one new version of it, and the overall length of the new gun is similar to QBZ-95. As a bullpup style assault rifle, QBZ-95 has the advantage of a long barrel, while the length of the barrel of the new rifle for the Chinese army seems similar to the 14.5-inch barrel of the US M4 carbine.
Most of the soldiers holding new guns during the military parade are mechanized infantry or special operations forces, which have high requirements for small-sized rifles, as short-barreled rifles are suitable for close combat and frequent loading and unloading. According to military analyst Junwu, the shorter barrel on the parade should be the short version of China’s new assault rifle.

In the above-mentioned video titled ” Models at the Central Enterprise”, there was a test image of a long-barrel version of *QBZ-191*. In addition, there was a long barrel rifle in an article published by “Light Weapons” magazine.



Standard version of QBZ-191 assault rifle being tested
The long barrel can provide a longer acceleration distance for the warhead, so that the bullet has a higher initial velocity, naturally it will also have greater energy, longer range, and greater penetration.
The long barrel is likely to be the standard-issue version of the new assault rifle of China’s QBZ-191, and it is likely to be used by Chinese field forces that are not sensitive to the size of the rifle.



Standard barrel version of QBZ-191



Shortened version rifle with retractable stock unlocked
In addition, a screenshot from the video shows that the development team was testing a new gun with a bipod in the 5,000-meter plateau, which has an even longer barrel than the standard-issue version of *QBZ-191.*



QBZ-191 rifle with a bipod
It can also be found from the picture that this model with a bipod barrel is much longer than the standard-issue version of the rifle, and the handguard part is fully distributed with a large number of heat dissipation holes, to allow quickly cooling of the barrel after continuous shooting. So Junwu thinks that this gun is the machine gun version of the new rifle, and it could be used in the future to replace type 95 machine gun.
Furthermore, a large-size optical pointing system is found in the video in the hands of the test team, which should be the sniper version of QBZ-191 – according to later information, this could be officially called “QBU-191 5.8mm precision rifle“.



This collimator should be used with the sniper version



Rumored picture of the sniper version of the new rifle
To sum up, QBZ-191 assault rifle should have 4 versions: shortened version, standard-issue version, light machine gun version and sniper version, which form a rifle family with different uses.
Besides, according to the “Light Weapons” magazine, the new QBZ-191 assault rifle is likely to adopt modular design, and some parts can be shared between the four rifle versions.

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## Zarvan

retaxis said:


> Will Pak once again buy a Chinese rifle like the 56? Pak buys a lot of Chinese weaponry so its not out of the question actually probably more likely than any other rifles. The new QBZ 191 seems to be very future proof and through strenuous testing seems to be a very legit rifle.
> 
> *Standard-issue version of China’s QBZ-191 assault rifle revealed*
> Posted on April 15, 2020 by CAS editor — 1 Comment ↓
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Since China’s new assault rifle appeared at the National Day military parade last year, which is likely named *QBZ-191* or *QBZ-19*, it hasn’t been reported for a long time, but recently a video on the development team of the new rifle was released on the Chinese internet, and the standard-issue version of this new rifle is finally unveiled.
> In this video, different versions of the *QBZ-191* rifle make a quite complete family. Last year at the military parade we saw only one new version of it, and the overall length of the new gun is similar to QBZ-95. As a bullpup style assault rifle, QBZ-95 has the advantage of a long barrel, while the length of the barrel of the new rifle for the Chinese army seems similar to the 14.5-inch barrel of the US M4 carbine.
> Most of the soldiers holding new guns during the military parade are mechanized infantry or special operations forces, which have high requirements for small-sized rifles, as short-barreled rifles are suitable for close combat and frequent loading and unloading. According to military analyst Junwu, the shorter barrel on the parade should be the short version of China’s new assault rifle.
> 
> In the above-mentioned video titled ” Models at the Central Enterprise”, there was a test image of a long-barrel version of *QBZ-191*. In addition, there was a long barrel rifle in an article published by “Light Weapons” magazine.
> 
> 
> 
> Standard version of QBZ-191 assault rifle being tested
> The long barrel can provide a longer acceleration distance for the warhead, so that the bullet has a higher initial velocity, naturally it will also have greater energy, longer range, and greater penetration.
> The long barrel is likely to be the standard-issue version of the new assault rifle of China’s QBZ-191, and it is likely to be used by Chinese field forces that are not sensitive to the size of the rifle.
> 
> 
> 
> Standard barrel version of QBZ-191
> 
> 
> 
> Shortened version rifle with retractable stock unlocked
> In addition, a screenshot from the video shows that the development team was testing a new gun with a bipod in the 5,000-meter plateau, which has an even longer barrel than the standard-issue version of *QBZ-191.*
> 
> 
> 
> QBZ-191 rifle with a bipod
> It can also be found from the picture that this model with a bipod barrel is much longer than the standard-issue version of the rifle, and the handguard part is fully distributed with a large number of heat dissipation holes, to allow quickly cooling of the barrel after continuous shooting. So Junwu thinks that this gun is the machine gun version of the new rifle, and it could be used in the future to replace type 95 machine gun.
> Furthermore, a large-size optical pointing system is found in the video in the hands of the test team, which should be the sniper version of QBZ-191 – according to later information, this could be officially called “QBU-191 5.8mm precision rifle“.
> 
> 
> 
> This collimator should be used with the sniper version
> 
> 
> 
> Rumored picture of the sniper version of the new rifle
> To sum up, QBZ-191 assault rifle should have 4 versions: shortened version, standard-issue version, light machine gun version and sniper version, which form a rifle family with different uses.
> Besides, according to the “Light Weapons” magazine, the new QBZ-191 assault rifle is likely to adopt modular design, and some parts can be shared between the four rifle versions.


No chance. We are not buying Chinese Rifles. That is why they were never tested.


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## bhola record

View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram

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## Zarvan

bhola record said:


> View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram


It's few years old.


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## bhola record

Zarvan said:


> It's few years old.


sorry fro that


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## Raja Porus

So,anything new?


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## Zarvan

Desert Fox 1 said:


> So,anything new?


Nothing. In fact I would suggest @Horus Sir please close the thread. If some news comes we can start a new thread. Right now it's getting pathetically hilarious.

@PanzerKiel

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## Aryeih Leib

Zarvan said:


> No chance. We are not buying Chinese Rifles. That is why they were never tested.


What about type 56


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## PanzerKiel

Zarvan said:


> Nothing. In fact I would suggest @Horus Sir please close the threat. If some news comes we can start a new thread. Right now it's getting pathetically hilarious.
> 
> @PanzerKiel


Or... Another option could be.... That this thread remains, but with a different title.... Like.... PAKISTAN ARMY SMALL ARMS.... Because that is really what is being discussed here..... 

In case we get news of a new weapon, a new thread can then be made.

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## Zarvan

PanzerKiel said:


> Or... Another option could be.... That this thread remains, but with a different title.... Like.... PAKISTAN ARMY SMALL ARMS.... Because that is really what is being discussed here.....
> 
> In case we get news of a new weapon, a new thread can then be made.


Yes that I agree with it. And as for new weapon, I think that would happen, but after 100 years.

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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> Money was not the issue. We didn't started Rifle trials without calculating every move. Issue was one or two Guns which we liked their companies were not agreeing to local production.


Wernt you CONFIRMING a couple of years ago that Beratta, FN and CZ have all not only agreed to local licensed production but also a license to export? I hope you remember confirming this with ABSOLUTE certainty!

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## Path-Finder

Arsalan said:


> Wernt you CONFIRMING a couple of years ago that Beratta, FN and CZ have all not only agreed to local licensed production but also a license to export? I hope you remember confirming this with ABSOLUTE certainty!


that is sadly the dheet mitti nature of our Hazrat @Zarvan

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## mingle

Path-Finder said:


> that is sadly the dheet mitti nature of our Hazrat @Zarvan


Our Hazrat loves FNScar


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## Path-Finder

mingle said:


> Our Hazrat loves FNScar


Our Hazrat @Zarvan misses the point that I was not doing its 'tareef' but pointing out an idiosyncrasy!

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## Kompromat

Unfavourable terms from FNH regarding the local production and re export issues are causing the delay for this contract.

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## mingle

Horus said:


> Unfavourable terms from FNH regarding the local production and re export issues are causing the delay for this contract.


Plz do a contract for our Hazrat only

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## Path-Finder

Horus said:


> Unfavourable terms from FNH regarding the local production and re export issues are causing the delay for this contract.


FN are a waste of time. they have proven to be a waste of time. its better ro start a brand new trials with new contenders. Like maybe Beretta can bring the NGSW in 6.8 meant for yankee trials.

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## Path-Finder

mingle said:


> Plz do a contract for our Hazrat only


Lets buy Hazrat @Zarvan a toy replica with the engraving "SCAR was the best in trials" and it can be buried with it too!

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## Kompromat

Who's paying for replacing billions of rounds of ammunition?

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## Zarvan

Horus said:


> Who's paying for replacing billions of rounds of ammunition?


If we go for 7.62 X 51 caliber gun. We don't have to replace ammunition


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## MastanKhan

Horus said:


> Who's paying for replacing billions of rounds of ammunition?



Hi,

.308 could be sold in the US ta profit---.

I cannot find ammo at gun stores---there is a wait.

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## Metal 0-1

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> .308 could be sold in the US ta profit---.
> 
> I cannot find ammo at gun stores---there is a wait.


Because of ammo hoarding "Prepers"

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## MastanKhan

Metal 0-1 said:


> Because of ammo hoarding "Prepers"



Hi,

I was sitting somewhere and overheard a white guy say that he has around 140K rounds of ammo sitting at his home---.

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## ziaulislam

Is it so difficult to manfacturer or desifn a modified version of AR?

I mean what are guys at POF doing

They should hire someone from bara in FATA they will do a better job

People in USA, pakistan KPK regions design guns them selves, in USA it ends up with mass producers

The replacement process is exepected to be slow for cost reasons so if we start now it will be 10 yrs

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## ziaulislam

I have multiple modified version of gun in BARA which are completely new design

People say quality is poor but what are they comparing..a hand made gun with a precsion based manufacturing ..come on !!!

POF should buy manfacturing equipment talk to military and either make a gun them selves, buy a design (not widely adopted) or hire someone to design one

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## Arsalan

Path-Finder said:


> that is sadly the ******************* Hazrat @Zarvan


No personal insults please.

I do admire @Zarvan for his patriotism and optimism. It is just getting too excited at times that is the problem and as long as i do not get a DIRECT message from him asking me to stop, i will continue fighting this battle to get him back to understanding things that should and should not be said. 

I have multiple times said that in today's world, there are NO ABSOLUTE CERTAINTIES! Not in defense matters at least. It is not just about performance and price but politics as well. And you know how politics works, the parties that built their political carrier opposing each other claim that they are partners now, have we not seen this happen? This is politics! Things can change at the last movement. So regardless of us showing interest, having arranged for money (which ALWAYS IS A PROBLEM in our case so that "MONEY NO ISSUE" is bullcr@p) So pardon me if i challenge statements like AH-1Z is a done deal, or C-130J is a done deal, or OPH is a done deal or U-214 is a done deal, or Z-10 are coming for sure, or T-129 are coming for sure, or F-16 Blk 72 is finalized and are in transit or The vipers have landed in Multan and we are hiding this news until all eight thousand of those arrive or PN will get a nuclear submarine from China in 2021-2022 or PAF is going for Su35 or PAF is going for EFT and its a done deal OR those UAE Cargo planes brought Mirages etc etc! NOTING IS A DONE DEAL UNTIL IT IS DONE. *We paid for those god forsaken F-16 decades ago, remember? wasn't it a done deal at that time? US-Pak relations were great, we evaluated and decided to buy more F-16, LM and USA agreed, money was settled,, DONE DEAL???? Where are those damn planes?* If people still do not understand this, all i can do is keep reminding them of their mistakes. Stubbornness is one thing, stupidity is another!

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## Path-Finder

Arsalan said:


> No personal insults please.
> 
> I do admire @Zarvan for his patriotism and optimism. It is just getting too excited at times that is the problem and as long as i do not get a DIRECT message from him asking me to stop, i will continue fighting this battle to get him back to understanding things that should and should not be said.
> 
> I have multiple times said that in today's world, there are NO ABSOLUTE CERTAINTIES! Not in defense matters at least. It is not just about performance and price but politics as well. And you know how politics works, the parties that built their political carrier opposing each other claim that they are partners now, have we not seen this happen? This is politics! Things can change at the last movement. So regardless of us showing interest, having arranged for money (which ALWAYS IS A PROBLEM in our case so that "MONEY NO ISSUE" is bullcr@p) So pardon me if i challenge statements like AH-1Z is a done deal, or C-130J is a done deal, or OPH is a done deal or U-214 is a done deal, or Z-10 are coming for sure, or T-129 are coming for sure, or F-16 Blk 72 is finalized and are in transit or The vipers have landed in Multan and we are hiding this news until all eight thousand of those arrive or PN will get a nuclear submarine from China in 2021-2022 or PAF is going for Su35 or PAF is going for EFT and its a done deal OR those UAE Cargo planes brought Mirages etc etc! NOTING IS A DONE DEAL UNTIL IT IS DONE. *We paid for those god forsaken F-16 decades ago, remember? wasn't it a done deal at that time? US-Pak relations were great, we evaluated and decided to buy more F-16, LM and USA agreed, money was settled,, DONE DEAL???? Where are those damn planes?* If people still do not understand this, all i can do is keep reminding them of their mistakes. Stubbornness is one thing, stupidity is another!


welldone for making me feel like a kuntz and making ye self into a pious being. may Allah elevate your status!

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## Zarvan

As of now I give a dam whether SCAR comes or not. What I know is G3 and Type 56 needs to go. If they are replaced with BREN, or Berretta or some other advance rifle from any part of the world, I am all for it.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Zarvan said:


> As of now I give a dam whether SCAR comes or not. What I know is G3 and Type 56 needs to go. If they are replaced with BREN, or Berretta or some other advance rifle from any part of the world, I am all for it.


Chalo bhai kuch to such bola ap ne aala hazrat

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## MastanKhan

ziaulislam said:


> Is it so difficult to manfacturer or desifn a modified version of AR?
> 
> I mean what are guys at POF doing
> 
> *They should hire someone from bara in FATA they will do a better job*
> 
> People in USA, pakistan KPK regions design guns them selves, in USA it ends up with mass producers
> 
> The replacement process is exepected to be slow for cost reasons so if we start now it will be 10 yrs



Hi,

Very disappointed at your level of understanding the issue---. Manufacturing a full fledged combat weapon is an art form and cannot be made in darra

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## Ahmet Pasha

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Very disappointed at your level of understanding the issue---. Manufacturing a full fledged combat weapon is an art form and cannot be made in darra


He isn't suggesting it be made in darra. He's just saying we can convert raw talent and craftsmanship into stellar human resource.


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## ziaulislam

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Very disappointed at your level of understanding the issue---. Manufacturing a full fledged combat weapon is an art form and cannot be made in darra


I am talking about making a modified version of AR 15
People in dara and multiple start ups in USA with no modern machinery can do it but not in POF ..


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> As of now I give a dam whether SCAR comes or not. What I know is G3 and Type 56 needs to go. If they are replaced with BREN, or Berretta or some other advance rifle from any part of the world, I am all for it.


had ho gai Hazrat @Zarvan

پنج سال تو ساڈا سر کھدا وے بیبے سکار دا پھنڈ پونا کر کے ہن کے مرض لگی گھیا آے

ڈھیٹ مٹی دی پاکستانی معاشرے دی تو صہی مسال ویں ​


MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Very disappointed at your level of understanding the issue---. Manufacturing a full fledged combat weapon is an art form and cannot be made in darra


not dara, its Peshawar that has overtaken Dara. In Peshawar they have imported top level CNC machining & tooling and using the right materials to make AR rifles. dara is now a dinosaur that's probably like going to a museum. 

If Peshawar gun makers are invested upon they will deliver.

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## Zarvan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Very disappointed at your level of understanding the issue---. Manufacturing a full fledged combat weapon is an art form and cannot be made in darra


Yes they can't be but if you bring Darra into mainstream provide them finance and allow them to establish proper manufacturing units as well as R and D. I am pretty sure they would much better job then Kaam Chor POF and HIT.


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## MastanKhan

Ahmet Pasha said:


> He isn't suggesting it be made in darra. He's just saying we can convert raw talent and craftsmanship into stellar human resource.



Hi,

No---it cannot be done just like that---. Comments like these show that the difficulty of the task is not understood---. Darra has history of making high quality weapons????---they can only make third rate copies---.

Even in the US---there is no such thing that an ordinary man makes a gun with ordinary backgrounds---.

The art of metallurgy in gun making is an extremely secretive business---.

Pak military chose the G3 as a weapon of choice---. If POF manufactures rifles now---you need to find out from where the rifle barrels come from---and the rest of the metal used in fabricating the mechanism what is its origin---.

In this day and age---building your own AR type rifle is useless---. Be smart---be intelligent and go for assembly & right to manufacture an existing platform---.

Don't let egos get in the way of sound decision & policy---.

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## Tomcats

MastanKhan said:


> Even in the US---there is no such thing that an ordinary man makes a gun with ordinary backgrounds---.


Well, a kid in Australia managed to tinker out a weapon in his garage which would go on to serve through WW2, Vietnam and beyond...

For those who are curious, this video talks about it:

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## Ahmet Pasha

Mujhe ye samajh nai ati that why did PA drop CZ and FB Radom MSBS. The eastern europeans seemed to offer great options of not just the rifles alone but the accessories to go along with them.


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## MastanKhan

Issam said:


> Well, a kid in Australia managed to tinker out a weapon in his garage which would go on to serve through WW2, Vietnam and beyond...
> 
> For those who are curious, this video talks about it:




Hi,

Ok---But is this weapon a MILITARY GRADE weapon---?

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## MastanKhan

Ahmet Pasha said:


> He isn't suggesting it be made in darra. He's just saying we can convert raw talent and craftsmanship into stellar human resource.



Hi,


Here is a video from a russian at how third rate the AK's made in darra are---and he is not wrong

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## Tomcats

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Ok---But is this weapon a MILITARY GRADE weapon---?


Considering the fact that it was the mainstay of the Australian military for a good amount of time and beat the Sten, MP38/40 in trials i'm pretty sure it was.


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## Raja Porus

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1351188866477207553I think he saw a modified picture of G3 on internet and decided to make something of it😂. Still..

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## Waiting

Desert Fox 1 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1351188866477207553I think he saw a modified picture of G3 on internet and decided to make something of it😂. Still..


Yes , it is under trial.. they just modified the old G3

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## Raja Porus

Waiting said:


> Yes , it is under trial.. they just modified the old G3


But the chances are minimum.moreover putting some optics and other attachments doesn't make it a new rifle. They could've done it without wasting so many years on this selection process if finally a modified G3 was to be selected. My opinion is that we'll go for the Bren


----------



## Kompromat

A new domestic rifle is under development. I am not referring to PK-18 (AR10) or PK-21 (AK).

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## mdmm

You wrote that a new domestic Rifle is under development. How this rifle resemble to which on of the following Rifles or is different with different new specifications ??
FN-SCAR-H,Beretta ARX-200,CZ-806 Bren2,Kalashnikov AK-103,Zavasta M21 ??
Will this new Pakistani refle be better than AK-47 203 rifle ??
Kindly add to my knowledge .Thanks

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## WinterFangs

If it’s the upgraded G3 I will cry, we need to look towards the future, even if we wait and eventually go for next gen weapons I’ll happily wait.

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## MastanKhan

Issam said:


> Considering the fact that it was the mainstay of the Australian military for a good amount of time and beat the Sten, MP38/40 in trials i'm pretty sure it was.



Hi,

Seemingly---you did not hear your own video---.

Darra people are given original equipment---and still they make POS guns----.

Is there anything original came out of Darra---?


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## Alpha Zairo

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Hehehe POF


Much better than G1 & G2 [emoji2]


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## WinterFangs

Is this really true? If so I’m not happy about it? Will they provide every solider with whats in the pic, in terms of attachments, because if not it’s not really much of a upgrade. What will the second rifle be?


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## CatSultan

Alpha Zairo said:


> Seems Pakistan army has finally decided about their battle rifle..
> They will continue with their time-tested workhorse G3 but modify it for present day requirements. This will save training and transition time to a newer weapon while using the same powerful 7.62x51 round.
> A shorter barrel, adjustable stock, picatny rail on top, front polymer hardgrip replaced with picatny for forward grip and gun torch.
> Overall compact package with same power of a G3 round.
> More suitable for evolving battle field of urban wars and deploying modern optics.
> View attachment 708186


7.62 has too much recoil. We should use 6.8mm.


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## Raja Porus

Source? I also shared it on the original thread relating this topic. It was a post by Zaid Hamid which is very unreliable

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## Waiting

CatSultan said:


> 7.62 has too much recoil. We should use 6.8mm.


Till now, few automatic magazine fire and barrel .... booom..


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## Arsalan

Path-Finder said:


> welldone for making me feel like a kuntz and making ye self into a pious being. may Allah elevate your status!


Why would I HAVE TO DO anything to make you feel that way? 

Jut kidding dear. Plus, to everyone, i meant no disrespect for Path-Finder and i totally understand your frustration and agression on this matter. I share the feeling. It is just that i cannot get involved in personal insults etc. However i do feel that you do not mean to hurt @Zarwan with what you say.


Horus said:


> A new domestic rifle is under development. I am not referring to PK-18 (AR10) or PK-21 (AK).


And all those years i was shot down when i clearly said that there still are people in positions that matter who are leaning towards a domestic solution for our future needs. This is just another indication of the same.

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## mdmm

Why Pakistan cannot make / buy, a new assault Rifle (with advanced features), which is a basic need and most important necessisity . 
India has bought 72,400 *SiGSauer assault rifles* for its frontline infantry troops while it is going for a joint venture with Russian Kalashnikov to acquire over 6.5 lakh *AK-203 assault rifle*s for replacing the INSAS rifles.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...ofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst


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## 626

Dear brothers, I am also sheikh chili.... Here is my idea for Pakistan's Army Standard Rifle program...

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## SD 10

626 said:


> Dear brothers, I am also sheikh chili.... Here is my idea for Pakistan's Army Standard Rifle program...
> View attachment 708464


yrr aise karo... choro bandook ko seedha har soldier ko aik attack helicopter pakra do ... remote control 🤣🤣 problem solved!

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## iLION12345_1

7.62x51 Will remain the Pakistan armies standard caliber for the foreseeable if not far future. You simply cannot replace that as you would have to Re-tool entire factories, get rid of all your reserves and produce new ones, and you would lose the uniformity of cartridge between you standard MG, DMR, SR and BR (battle rifle)
Moreover 7.62x51 is good for Pakistani terrain and the 2 million~ trained soldiers are familiar with it. It’s unfeasible to change it. 

Another thing people don’t seem to understand is that the G3 has never been and will never be fired in full auto in any combat situation, it’s an accurate weapon and so will be the next weapon they induct chambered in the same round, when you can drop an enemy wearing body armor in one shot, why fire full auto? That’s what your MG3 is for, suppressive fire. 

Just let it be clear: the G3 is not the standard ASSAULT rifle of the PA, it is the standard BATTLE Rifle. That’s why the AK103 is standardized alongside it for operations where you need a smaller weapon. This dual system works well as both these rounds and rifles (whatever they replace the G3 with) can be used in different circumstances as required. The PA Refers to AK103 as an ‘SMG’ (as it did with Type 56/other AKs) as it started using them in that CQB role during the WoT (room clearing is near impossible with a G3). But it is the standard AR of the PA. We’re starting to see mainly just AKs in soldiers hands because the photos we get are mostly from the WoT where the AKs are more useful. But a modern 7.62x51 weapon will surely be well suited to engagements along the eastern border or beyond.

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## 626

SD 10 said:


> yrr aise karo... choro bandook ko seedha har soldier ko aik attack helicopter pakra do ... remote control 🤣🤣 problem solved!


Bhai aisa kertay hain jo soldiers indian border per hain un sab ko missile day daitay hain. Modi jaisi he hip posture main aa ker surgical strike kehay ga. seedah missile ghusa dain gay.

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## Metal 0-1

iLION12345_1 said:


> Just let it be clear: the G3 is not the standard ASSAULT rifle of the PA, it is the standard BATTLE Rifle. That’s why the AK103 is standardized alongside it for operations where you need a smaller weapon. This dual system works well as both these rounds and rifles (whatever they replace the G3 with) can be used in different circumstances as required. The PA Refers to AK103 as an ‘SMG’ (as it did with Type 56/other AKs) as it started using them in that CQB role during the WoT (room clearing is near impossible with a G3). But it is the standard AR of the PA. We’re starting to see mainly just AKs in soldiers hands because the photos we get are mostly from the WoT where the AKs are more useful. But a modern 7.62x51 weapon will surely be well suited to engagements along the eastern border or beyond.


That POF Ak-103 is not AK-103.

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## PAR 5

یہ ٹرک کی بتی ابھی تک ان ہے؟

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## iLION12345_1

Metal 0-1 said:


> That POF Ak-103 is not AK-103.


I found that interesting too. Some sites say that it is a “licensed copy” of AK-103 but I could not find any source or reference to a licensing contract signed between POF and Klashnikov Concern. The POF itself calls it an AK-103 too. 
However it is also obviously not a Stock Type 56 as it is using polymer furniture and magazines along with the Rails and upgraded handguard. One can assume if POF is calling it as such it has the upgraded barrel as well but I’m yet to get my hands on one. I’ve only got an older one. Maybe an active duty personnel here can clarify if any have been issued.


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## Raja Porus

iLION12345_1 said:


> I found that interesting too. Some sites say that it is a “licensed copy” of AK-103 but I could not find any source or reference to a licensing contract signed between POF and Klashnikov Concern. The POF itself calls it an AK-103 too.
> However it is also obviously not a Stock Type 56 as it is using polymer furniture and magazines along with the Rails and upgraded handguard. One can assume if POF is calling it as such it has the upgraded barrel as well but I’m yet to get my hands on one. I’ve only got an older one. Maybe an active duty personnel here can clarify if any have been issued.


It is infact the copy of the Chinese copy of Ak47 and has nothing to do with ak103 as its is older than that. The version that you see nowadays is type 56-II

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## iLION12345_1

Desert Fox 1 said:


> It is infact the copy of the Chinese copy of Ak47 and has nothing to do with ak103 as its is older than that. The version that you see nowadays is type 56-II


That’s also likely not true, Type 56-II has been in service for much longer than that already. The newer one is different. Yes Type 56 is the one we see most often but the one showcased at POF was probably something else and is supposed to supplement or replace the Type 56 from what I can gather.
Though I may be wrong.


----------



## Raja Porus

iLION12345_1 said:


> That’s also likely not true, Type 56-II has been in service for much longer than that already. The newer one is different. Yes Type 56 is the one we see most often but the one showcased at POF was probably something else and is supposed to supplement or replace the Type 56 from what I can gather.
> Though I may be wrong.


Please share a picture if you have


----------



## Metal 0-1

iLION12345_1 said:


> I found that interesting too. Some sites say that it is a “licensed copy” of AK-103 but I could not find any source or reference to a licensing contract signed between POF and Klashnikov Concern. The POF itself calls it an AK-103 too.
> However it is also obviously not a Stock Type 56 as it is using polymer furniture and magazines along with the Rails and upgraded handguard. One can assume if POF is calling it as such it has the upgraded barrel as well but I’m yet to get my hands on one. I’ve only got an older one. Maybe an active duty personnel here can clarify if any have been issued.





Desert Fox 1 said:


> It is infact the copy of the Chinese copy of Ak47 and has nothing to do with ak103 as its is older than that. The version that you see nowadays is type 56-II



Let's go tip to butt and compare AK-103 and PK-21.
AK-103:





AK-103 comes with a Signature AK-100 series muzzle device which tends to reduce recoil at the cost of your comrade ears next to you. Just a joke AK-103 muzzle device is awesome.

Barrel is Cold hammer forged which is industry standard all over Europe and US.

Handguard is glass filled polymer which is more durable than wood. Remains cool after excessive use.
Klashinkov Group also offers Handguard with picatinny rails.

Magazines are made of polymer which are more lighter and reliable. But it also works with classic metal magazines.

Finish of the weapon is modern corrosion resistance finish.

On the left side you have your mount to attach rails for variety of optics.

Pistol grip is glass filled polymer too.

Now the polymer stock which is great update to wooden stock. AK-103 stock folds to the left side when carrying in vehicles. Folding on left side don't interfere with functioning of weapon.

PK-21:





There is no muzzle device. Barrel tip is same as 1959 AKM i.e slanted.

Looks like a low quality barrel.

Handguard looks like polymer but old school in look. Always skeptical of POF polymers.

Sights are same as AKM.

Receiver and Dust Cover is old school.

Under folding metal stock.

It doesn't looks like AK-103. It is Type-56/AKM painted in black.
For reference.





AKM is the first generation of AK and AK-103 is the latest Gen. So It's advanced and superior in many ways.

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## Raja Porus

Anyone who has played both Call of Duty modern warfare 1and 2/3 can understand. Aks in modern warfare 1 were the basic ones and were no fun. But those in COD MW 2/3 were Ak103s and they were different and better(both in effectiveness as well as sound)
Just to give an example.

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## Reddawn

iLION12345_1 said:


> 7.62x51 Will remain the Pakistan armies standard caliber for the foreseeable if not far future. You simply cannot replace that as you would have to Re-tool entire factories, get rid of all your reserves and produce new ones, and you would lose the uniformity of cartridge between you standard MG, DMR, SR and BR (battle rifle)
> Moreover 7.62x51 is good for Pakistani terrain and the 2 million~ trained soldiers are familiar with it. It’s unfeasible to change it.
> 
> Another thing people don’t seem to understand is that the G3 has never been and will never be fired in full auto in any combat situation, it’s an accurate weapon and so will be the next weapon they induct chambered in the same round, when you can drop an enemy wearing body armor in one shot, why fire full auto? That’s what your MG3 is for, suppressive fire.
> 
> Just let it be clear: the G3 is not the standard ASSAULT rifle of the PA, it is the standard BATTLE Rifle. That’s why the AK103 is standardized alongside it for operations where you need a smaller weapon. This dual system works well as both these rounds and rifles (whatever they replace the G3 with) can be used in different circumstances as required. The PA Refers to AK103 as an ‘SMG’ (as it did with Type 56/other AKs) as it started using them in that CQB role during the WoT (room clearing is near impossible with a G3). But it is the standard AR of the PA. We’re starting to see mainly just AKs in soldiers hands because the photos we get are mostly from the WoT where the AKs are more useful. But a modern 7.62x51 weapon will surely be well suited to engagements along the eastern border or beyond.




Good post. Is the PA going to adopt a more portable MG at the squad level? From what I've seen the MG3 is a crew operated MG. Is it deployed at the squad or platoon level?


----------



## iLION12345_1

Metal 0-1 said:


> Let's go tip to butt and compare AK-103 and PK-21.
> AK-103:
> View attachment 708843
> 
> AK-103 comes with a Signature AK-100 series muzzle device which tends to reduce recoil at the cost of your comrade ears next to you. Just a joke AK-103 muzzle device is awesome.
> 
> Barrel is Cold hammer forged which is industry standard all over Europe and US.
> 
> Handguard is glass filled polymer which is more durable than wood. Remains cool after excessive use.
> Klashinkov Group also offers Handguard with picatinny rails.
> 
> Magazines are made of polymer which are more lighter and reliable. But it also works with classic metal magazines.
> 
> Finish of the weapon is modern corrosion resistance finish.
> 
> On the left side you have your mount to attach rails for variety of optics.
> 
> Pistol grip is glass filled polymer too.
> 
> Now the polymer stock which is great update to wooden stock. AK-103 stock folds to the left side when carrying in vehicles. Folding on left side don't interfere with functioning of weapon.
> 
> PK-21:
> View attachment 708841
> 
> 
> There is no muzzle device. Barrel tip is same as 1959 AKM i.e slanted.
> 
> Looks like a low quality barrel.
> 
> Handguard looks like polymer but old school in look. Always skeptical of POF polymers.
> 
> Sights are same as AKM.
> 
> Receiver and Dust Cover is old school.
> 
> Under folding metal stock.
> 
> It doesn't looks like AK-103. It is Type-56/AKM painted in black.
> For reference.
> View attachment 708842
> 
> 
> AKM is the first generation of AK and AK-103 is the latest Gen. So It's advanced and superior in many ways.


I was not referring to that AK (the picture you posted), that’s definitely not An AK103, that doesn’t even look like Type 56-II as the Bakelite furniture is missing. And the Type 56-II didn’t originally come with that muzzle attachment either though it’s seen on many now. 

I also didn’t call it An AK-103 in my original post, only mentioned that POF calls it that. It does look like it has polymer hand guards but not magazine.

I wouldn’t call the barrel “low quality”, POF doesn’t exactly make “low quality weapons” or polymers. Obviously they wouldn’t be of the same grade as something made by Klashnikov Though.

But the fact that there’s no proof of a licensing contract should be the end of the discussion, POF does not produce any Real AK103s.

They are developing a new rifle for the military currently though, let’s see where that goes.


Desert Fox 1 said:


> Please share a picture if you have



The one I have is similar yo the photo posted above of the one made by POF, just with a few things on it. I don’t have a proper photo of it atm so I’ll upload the one I have. (It belongs to a family member as its military issued, sorry for the bad crop, it’s an older photo.)


----------



## Tomcats

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> 
> Here is a video from a russian at how third rate the AK's made in darra are---and he is not wrong





MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Seemingly---you did not hear your own video---.
> 
> Darra people are given original equipment---and still they make POS guns----.
> 
> Is there anything original came out of Darra---?


Good video and yeah he is not wrong, he summarizes it by saying that if both the state and private owned weapon makers of Pakistan worked that there is a lot of potential. Also you seem to hold a high bar for people with files and tin cans, of course quality will be horrible. Same with the Owen gun during its original state.


----------



## Inception-06

Reddawn said:


> Good post. Is the PA going to adopt a more portable MG at the squad level? From what I've seen the MG3 is a crew operated MG. Is it deployed at the squad or platoon level?



Section Level !

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## iLION12345_1

Reddawn said:


> Good post. Is the PA going to adopt a more portable MG at the squad level? From what I've seen the MG3 is a crew operated MG. Is it deployed at the squad or platoon level?


At the Section level, MG-3 can be used by a single person when needed. it will need to be replaced in time too but Pakistan is a bit behind in small arms replacement atm. We’ve made our own DMR and HMG but AR/MG remain, however the MG3 isn’t too high on the priority list at the moment from what we can see, it does its job well for now.

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## MastanKhan

Waiting said:


> Yes , it is under trial.. they just modified the old





Issam said:


> Good video and yeah he is not wrong, he summarizes it by saying that if both the state and private owned weapon makers of Pakistan worked that there is a lot of potential. Also you seem to hold a high bar for people with files and tin cans, of course quality will be horrible. Same with the Owen gun during its original state.



Hi,

The potential is a frame of mind.

Many a pakistanis have learning disability.

The Owen Gun basic design could easily have been stolen but the neighbor was a honorable man---.

The design here is not an issue---.Darra is making copies from the actual and still the copy is a THIRD RATE gun---.

And the problem here is that you are not comprehending that simple part---.

The Owen Gun was a young man's brilliant idea and someone knowledgeable made the most out of it---.

Over here---the idea is not the issue---the issue is third rate workmanship.

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## Suff Shikan

626 said:


> Dear brothers, I am also sheikh chili.... Here is my idea for Pakistan's Army Standard Rifle program...
> View attachment 708464


I think this lies in PDW (Personal Defense Weapon), not in Battlefield Rifle


----------



## Readerdefence

View attachment 709254
View attachment 709254



Readerdefence said:


> View attachment 709254
> View attachment 709254


Why don’t PA get this QBZ 95 can ask China to make according to Pakistani firepower specifications
thank you


----------



## iLION12345_1

Readerdefence said:


> View attachment 709254
> View attachment 709254
> 
> 
> Why don’t PA get this QBZ 95 can ask China to make according to Pakistani firepower specifications
> thank you


Read my post from a few days ago. The caliber is the biggest issue. Secondly it’s a bullpup rifle. Which would mean the entire armed forces would need to be retrained to use it. 
lastly the QBZ-95 is not a good rifle (it’s not meant for export either). It has many issues. They have been highlighted in many videos online before.


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## Eight Pass Charlie

Turkish Special Police and Infantry Commandos using what looks like a G3, correct me if I am wrong, at 0:00 to 0:43

Then Special forces using some type of AR

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## Readerdefence

iLION12345_1 said:


> Read my post from a few days ago. The caliber is the biggest issue. Secondly it’s a bullpup rifle. Which would mean the entire armed forces would need to be retrained to use it.
> lastly the QBZ-95 is not a good rifle (it’s not meant for export either). It has many issues. They have been highlighted in many videos online before.


Hi thanks for your input their export model is QBZ97 which FC in Pakistan is already using it as per Wikipedia as I have mentioned if chinese are willing to make it according to PA requirements then PA should have a look into it as for the bullpup it shouldnt be a problem as many front line countries in the world are using this technology for the last 50 years or so 
thank you

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## Eight Pass Charlie

The QBZ95 has been heavily criticised inside and outside of China. They are planning on replacing it with the QBZ-191. It can be seen in the below video which seems to be a news documentary on it development


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## KurtisBrian

obviously it should be something owned and made by Pakistan or Pakistan's ally. Economic war is as important as the war itself.


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## Zarvan

Desert Fox 1 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1351188866477207553I think he saw a modified picture of G3 on internet and decided to make something of it😂. Still..


Does this joker even realize the sheer weight of this G3. It would have double the weight. The issue which G3 needs to be replaced for just got doubled.

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## iLION12345_1

Readerdefence said:


> Hi thanks for your input their export model is QBZ97 which FC in Pakistan is already using it as per Wikipedia as I have mentioned if chinese are willing to make it according to PA requirements then PA should have a look into it as for the bullpup it shouldnt be a problem as many front line countries in the world are using this technology for the last 50 years or so
> thank you


Yes, the FC uses a few. But they are export versions chambered in 556, Pakistans need is for 7.62, it suits our terrain and usage conditions better. We cannot replace our entire inventory of 7.62 ammunition as well as our machines that manufacture then. Moreover, FC uses it for special forces in small numbers. You can teach them to use it, it is unfeasible to retrain the entire armored forced on bullpup rifles. The issues with the rifle remain as well. Pakistan will only pick a 7.62x51 and 7.62x39 cartridge which is of conventional design, can be manufactured locally and passes the armies requirements.


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## fitpOsitive

Guys, little off topic. Look at this thin. Totally bizarre




@Zarvan @Path-Finder

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## Path-Finder

fitpOsitive said:


> Guys, little off topic. Look at this thin. Totally bizarre
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Zarvan @Path-Finder


ahh, its not FN SCAR!!


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## fitpOsitive

Path-Finder said:


> ahh, its not FN SCAR!!


We can talk to these guys for a total technology transfer.

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## Path-Finder

fitpOsitive said:


> We can talk to these guys for a total technology transfer.


it looks goods. BUT its not approved by our Hazrat @Zarvan who is blinded by FN SCAR.

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## Metal 0-1

fitpOsitive said:


> Guys, little off topic. Look at this thin. Totally bizarre
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Zarvan @Path-Finder


This would be nice for the role of Squad Automatic Weapon.

If drum magazines are used.


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## fitpOsitive

Path-Finder said:


> it looks goods. BUT its not approved by our Hazrat @Zarvan who is blinded by FN SCAR.


Zarvan bhai also liked it. 
This gun idea is revolutionary. Single frame, multiple calibres. A single gun can be sniper, assault or light machine. I mean it's the next idea.


Metal 0-1 said:


> This would be nice for the role of Squad Automatic Weapon.
> 
> If drum magazines are used.


Overall the two things are best. 
Mininimum recoil. 
Changing calibre. 
I although I don't know about its performance against wet and dry tests, or how many rounds in one go, are possible with this concept.


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## Path-Finder

fitpOsitive said:


> Zarvan bhai also liked it.
> This gun idea is revolutionary. Single frame, multiple calibres. A single gun can be sniper, assault or light machine. I mean it's the next idea.


a person who has spent years fascinating over FN SCAR and develops a cult around it then they will never see anything else.


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## fitpOsitive

Path-Finder said:


> a person who has spent years fascinating over FN SCAR and develops a cult around it then they will never see anything else.


Let's see what he has to say about it. 
What do you think about this idea of gun, and anything else or any similar concept around the globe?


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## Path-Finder

fitpOsitive said:


> Let's see what he has to say about it.
> What do you think about this idea of gun, and anything else or any similar concept around the globe?


It's Like the Ultimax100 from Singapore a very very similar type of gun. In Fact the designers of both are the same and its a proven design. The issue with our Hazrat @Zarvan is something of a self imposed(dheet mitti) cult following of FN SCAR.

BUT most importantly he has 0 bearings on decision making by the officials so keep fathoming your cult on FN SCAR.


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## Zarvan

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1356070839058386945
@PanzerKiel Sir any truth to it ?

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## untitled



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## Zarvan

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1358448187019726849


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## Ahmet Pasha

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Anyone who has played both Call of Duty modern warfare 1and 2/3 can understand. Aks in modern warfare 1 were the basic ones and were no fun. But those in COD MW 2/3 were Ak103s and they were different and better(both in effectiveness as well as sound)
> Just to give an example.


Don't you know SCAR won COD trials as well.


iLION12345_1 said:


> They are developing a new rifle for the military currently though, let’s see where that goes.


Probably another mutated form of G3

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## Raja Porus

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Don't you know SCAR won COD trials as well.


It should have


----------



## Path-Finder

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1358392602073182208
I hope derwaish'e kram Hazrat @Zarvan doesn't get palpitations.

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## Zarvan

Kalashnikov designs new firearms | Defense News February 2021 Global Security army industry | Defense Security global news industry army year 2021 | Archive News year (armyrecognition.com) 

Kalashnikov designs new firearms

@PanzerKiel


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1358392602073182208
> I hope derwaish'e kram Hazrat @Zarvan doesn't get palpitations.


What tweet says. Why I would get anything ? What tweet says ?


----------



## Reichmarshal

according to him AK 103 along with POF made PK 18 have already been chosen to replace type 56 and G 3.
according to him the order to buy some 150000 AK 103 was placed in 2016, while the rest to be manufactured at POF.

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## Raja Porus

Reichmarshal said:


> according to him AK 103 along with POF made PK 18 have already been chosen to replace type 56 and G 3.
> according to him the order to buy some 150000 AK 103 was placed in 2016, while the rest to be manufactured at POF.


But he didn't mention Any source. Still what he said looks probable especially about the good old AK


----------



## Zarvan

Reichmarshal said:


> according to him AK 103 along with POF made PK 18 have already been chosen to replace type 56 and G 3.
> according to him the order to buy some 150000 AK 103 was placed in 2016, while the rest to be manufactured at POF.


He is wrong on this one

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## Reichmarshal

If u Want to know/learn about small arms then watch 9 hole review. Here they are reviewing AK 103 with Vladimir Onokoy. I think it also includes footage and references from its trials in Pakistan.

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## Zarvan

*Lighter Version of the National Infantry Rifle MPT-76 Ready for Duty*

*The lightened version of the MPT-76 National Infantry Rifle, which continues to be developed with the Turkish Armed Forces feedback, has become ready for the use of security forces.*
February 07, 2021


President of Defense Industries İsmail Demir announced on his official social media account that the qualification of the lighter version of the National Infantry Rifle, MPT-76-MH, has been completed. "We continue our efforts to ensure that our security forces use their equipment more effectively in the field. Designed by MKEK, the qualification of the lighter National Infantry Rifle MPT-76-MH has been completed." Demir said in his statement.

Mass production of the MPT-76, which was developed entirely by Turkish engineers within the scope of the Modern Infantry Rifle project carried out under the coordination of the Presidency of Defense Industries (SSB) to meet the modern assault rifle needs of the Turkish Armed Forces, started in 2016. Today, more than 40 thousand rifles, produced and delivered by the Mechanical and Chemical Industry Corporation (MKEK), Sarsılmaz, and Kale, are actively used by the security forces.

While the deliveries are ongoing, development efforts continued in line with the feedback from the field. Initially, MPT-76 weighed 4.2 kilograms; however, MKEK made further improvements on the rifle and reduced its weight by more than 400 grams. Thus, the new MPT-76-MH became approximately 3 kilograms and 750 grams. Following the completion of its qualification process, the lighter National Infantry Rifle MPT-76-MH is expected to be used by the security forces in the coming period.

The National Infantry Rifle (MPT-76), which was produced completely using national resources and without technical support from abroad, passed 42 different environmental tests such as cold and hot air, sand, rain, and mud, all prepared according to NATO standards. The rifle can operate at -40°C and 65°C under pressurized water and mud without malfunctioning. MPT-76 uses 7.62x51 mm NATO bullets, has an effective range of up to 600 meters, a barrel life of up to 12 thousand shots, and has a firing rate of 650 shots per minute.







Lighter Version of the National Infantry Rifle MPT-76 Ready for Duty - Defence Turkey Magazine

@PanzerKiel* Sir Asi Fair Na hi samajiay* ?

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## Raja Porus

Love the way he controls the recoil of G3A3

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1365870778273714179

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## Neurath

MPT-76 is currently the best weapon to replace the G3 with. It's a battle rifle, its modern and its coming from an ally.
Other weapons might perform better but they're too expensive or are from countries that might not sell us those.


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## Zarvan

Neurath said:


> MPT-76 is currently the best weapon to replace the G3 with. It's a battle rifle, its modern and its coming from an ally.
> Other weapons might perform better but they're too expensive or are from countries that might not sell us those.


Dude we can't just select a weapon because it is coming from an ally. If it passes our tests smoothly yes it should come but if not sorry it should not. Just being an ally is not enough.

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## Tangoo

Zarvan said:


> Dude we can't just select a weapon because it is coming from an ally. If it passes our tests smoothly yes it should come but if not sorry it should not. Just being an ally is not enough.


Did Ak103 pass the tests? if so why the delay in getting them?


----------



## Path-Finder

Tangoo said:


> Did Ak103 pass the tests? if so why the delay in getting them?


Because its NOT FN SCAR


----------



## Bossman

Tangoo said:


> Did Ak103 pass the tests? if so why the delay in getting them?


I think they are being inducted as we speak. Units deployed in the erstwhile FATA are the first ones.

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## spectregunship

Bossman said:


> I think they are being inducted as we speak. Units deployed in the erstwhile FATA are the first ones.


None that I know of... all the units are getting is the same Chinese version...


----------



## Oldman1



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## Sunny4pak

*From This Pic, It seems Pak SSG already Using AK103 (PK-21 Version)*





Your Thoughts on this Sir?

@Imran Khan @Zarvan @Irfan Baloch @DESERT FIGHTER @PanzerKiel

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## PanzerKiel

Sunny4pak said:


> *From This Pic, It seems Pak SSG already Using AK103 (PK-21 Version)*
> 
> View attachment 725317
> 
> Your Thoughts on this Sir?
> 
> @Imran Khan @Zarvan @Irfan Baloch @DESERT FIGHTER @PanzerKiel


For a long time now..... 
... And they are using some other AK versions as well which aren't publicized or available otherwise or officially procured.... Direct, specific, limited procurements.

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## iLION12345_1

AK-103s are already being inducted. For regulars too, along side other modern AKs as Panzerkiel mentioned. I saw a particular batch myself recently, as a family member is involved in the procurement program 

Keep in mind that the G3 and the older AKs, both have to be replace individually. The G3 is our standard battle rifle while the AKs are designated as standard SMGs in the PA (as they were procured to replace MP5s for CQB role in the WoT. MP-5s were not good enough to stop a armored, high on Hash and adrenaline Taliban charging at you apparently) . The AK replacement is already slowly underway, while the G3 replacement is not fully ready.
The most likely G3 replacement will come from within Pakistan itself from POF. The PK-18 was just the first offering, with local option the upside is that the military can give its own specifications and have a gun designed specifically for them. Which is what we might see with the next offering. But in time it will be replaced with whatever suits us best. It’s also a big step in local small arms manufacture that we have to appreciate.

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## Zarvan

Sunny4pak said:


> *From This Pic, It seems Pak SSG already Using AK103 (PK-21 Version)*
> 
> View attachment 725317
> 
> Your Thoughts on this Sir?
> 
> @Imran Khan @Zarvan @Irfan Baloch @DESERT FIGHTER @PanzerKiel


This is not AK 103.


PanzerKiel said:


> For a long time now.....
> ... And they are using some other AK versions as well which aren't publicized or available otherwise or officially procured.... Direct, specific, limited procurements.


The one in picture is not AK 103 Sir.

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## PanzerKiel

Zarvan said:


> This is not AK 103.
> 
> The one in picture is not AK 103 Sir.


Yeah I know... But I've seen them being used.... SSG guys were using it more than a decade and a half ago....

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## iLION12345_1

Zarvan said:


> This is not AK 103.
> 
> The one in picture is not AK 103 Sir.


Yea the muzzle break and the mag are a giveaway. But AK-103 doesn’t have to be in a single configuration (I.e. the one shown in the videos by the Klashnikov factory). Weapons are in many variants, any type of modern AK over the old Chinese ones is welcome. Even if it’s not exactly a 103.

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## Goritoes

PanzerKiel said:


> Yeah I know... But I've seen them being used.... SSG guys were using it more than a decade and a half ago....



what happen to Type 56? and what will be its future ?

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## Raja Porus

Goritoes said:


> what happen to Type 56? and what will be its future ?


Police, most probably

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## Goritoes

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Police, most probably



I think FC should be a better choice no ? they are on forefront against BLA/BRAS.

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## Raja Porus

Goritoes said:


> I think FC should be a better choice no ? they are on forefront against BLA/BRAS.


They already have them. Infact most of them have the better Chinese copy that is type-56 not type-56II which is used by our army

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## Metal 0-1

Sunny4pak said:


> *From This Pic, It seems Pak SSG already Using AK103 (PK-21 Version)*
> 
> View attachment 725317
> 
> Your Thoughts on this Sir?
> 
> @Imran Khan @Zarvan @Irfan Baloch @DESERT FIGHTER @PanzerKiel


That my friend is AK-103 Chinese cousin. Not AK-103

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## PanzerKiel

Goritoes said:


> what happen to Type 56? and what will be its future ?


Type 56 is awesome as I said already... They are still there on great numbers in normal infantry units.... Almost all infantry units having majority of Type 56s with them... Unless their task demands otherwise...

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## Goritoes

PanzerKiel said:


> Type 56 is awesome as I said already... They are still there on great numbers in normal infantry units.... Almost all infantry units having majority of Type 56s with them... Unless their task demands otherwise...



Sorry I didn't catch your comment on Type 56 before, this thread has a history of been in and out of PDF spotlight, but i do remember reading here from members who actually know what they are talking about the efficiency of type 56 specially in the rugged terrains, environment of Tribal areas, but of course gear of a company/unit specially in SSF's are picked with respect to the nature of the mission .

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## PanzerKiel

Goritoes said:


> Sorry I didn't catch your comment on Type 56 before, this thread has a history of been in and out of PDF spotlight, but i do remember reading here from members who actually know what they are talking about the efficiency of type 56 specially in the rugged terrains, environment of Tribal areas, but of course gear of a company/unit specially in SSF's are picked with respect to the nature of the mission .







__





Pakistan's Service Rifle (G-3, Type-56) Replacement Competition 2016.


an insightful video that highlights tradeoffs in rifle construction. 80-20 solution. casting vs milled vs stamped. simplified designs.



defence.pk





Of course.. Spec ops troops use highly customized mission specific gear...

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## Goritoes

PanzerKiel said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan's Service Rifle (G-3, Type-56) Replacement Competition 2016.
> 
> 
> an insightful video that highlights tradeoffs in rifle construction. 80-20 solution. casting vs milled vs stamped. simplified designs.
> 
> 
> 
> defence.pk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course.. Spec ops troops use highly customized mission specific gear...



there is one operation in Pakistan history which i really wish to read details about and that is the Operation to capture Fazal ullah, i am forgetting the name of valley where SSG were dropped on mountain tops and then they have to fight their way down hill. But given the secrecy in which PA and SSG operate i doubt details will even hit the day light.

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## PanzerKiel

Goritoes said:


> there is one operation in Pakistan history which i really wish to read details about and that is the Operation to capture Fazal ullah, i am forgetting the name of valley where SSG were dropped on mountain tops and then they have to fight their way down hill. But given the secrecy in which PA and SSG operate i doubt details will even hit the day light.


Peochar...


PanzerKiel said:


> Peochar...


Op Black Thunderstorm

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## Goritoes

PanzerKiel said:


> Peochar...
> 
> Op Black Thunderstorm



oh yes, peochar valley, I saw ARY new reporter's documentary " Pakistan ki Jung " in which he gives a bit details, i think the man leading the operation was, his was something like Haroon if i remember correctly, it was funny when he mentioned that when SSG start engaging them from behind they thought US army has came to fight them, and they got panic and run, this one operation must have stories on every ridge or every corner, but its sad that we might not even hear or know about them.

i wonder if you or any of your collogues know anything about the nature of the mission, have you write any piece of assessment on it? would love to read it if you do

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## Raja Porus

PanzerKiel said:


> Peochar...
> 
> Op Black Thunderstorm





Goritoes said:


> oh yes, peochar valley, I saw ARY new reporter's documentary " Pakistan ki Jung " in which he gives a bit details, i think the man leading the operation was, his was something like Haroon if i remember correctly, it was funny when he mentioned that when SSG start engaging them from behind they thought US army has came to fight them, and they got panic and run, this one operation must have stories on every ridge or every corner, but its sad that we might not even hear or know about them.
> 
> i wonder if you or any of your collogues know anything about the nature of the mission, have you write any piece of assessment on it? would love to read it if you do


This operation was personally led by the GOC SSG, then Major general Haroon Aslam. One of the highest ranking officers ever to be dropped behind enemy lines.Also remember that poeochar was one of the strongest positions of terrorists which was reinforced by more Taliban including foreign terrorists following our success in other AORs .Moreover there was no land access to poeochar and even our helis were also hit by 14 and 12.7mm rounds so you can estimate the level of resistance
Also a slap on the face of those who abuse our generals every now and then...
He once said" Yeh SSG ki rawiyat ha ke hum hamesha front se lead kartay hain".
Here he can be seen directing his troop from the front.

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## Reichmarshal

the lead element of the SSG whose job was to clear the LZ landed right on top of ttp positions, who were taken aback, they not only cleared that but the surrounding hills overlooking the LZ. That was some feat lead by their brilliant company commander Maj. Bangz. who planned, executed, and led from the front. Got a Tbt for it.
The top brass including the chief was shocked by the speed with which the areas were cleansed as they had not expected it all to go so well. When the lead element was withdrawn to tarbela, Gen. kiyani personally came to meet and congratulate the team 
The two GOC arrived I think the 2 or the 3rd day by that time most of the hard work that broke ttp back had already been done.

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## untitled

Does Pakistani POF surplus ammo have a bad reputation in the international market? I see people distancing themselves from POF .303 and 30-06 but giving passing marks to 7.62 NATO. Is the surplus 30-06 and .303 even Pakistani made in the first place?


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## bhola record

Reichmarshal said:


> the lead element of the SSG whose job was to clear the LZ landed right on top of ttp positions, who were taken aback, they not only cleared that but the surrounding hills overlooking the LZ. That was some feat lead by their brilliant company commander Maj. Bangz. who planned, executed, and led from the front. Got a Tbt for it.
> The top brass including the chief was shocked by the speed with which the areas were cleansed as they had not expected it all to go so well. When the lead element was withdrawn to tarbela, Gen. kiyani personally came to meet and congratulate the team
> The two GOC arrived I think the 2 or the 3rd day by that time most of the hard work that broke ttp back had already been done.


Where was captain bilal KIA?

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## wasileo80

Zarvan said:


> Dude we can't just select a weapon because it is coming from an ally. If it passes our tests smoothly yes it should come but if not sorry it should not. Just being an ally is not enough.


Also being a good weapon alone is not enough. There are other parameters aslo need to analyze, e.g. Cost, Transfer of technology, training, compatibility with existing inventory, your relations with the seller, Origin of Seller, Global power's influence on Supplier and list goes on.

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## Reichmarshal

bhola record said:


> Where was captain bilal KIA?


Peochar

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## SpaceMan18

wasileo80 said:


> Also being a good weapon alone is not enough. There are other parameters aslo need to analyze, e.g. Cost, Transfer of technology, training, compatibility with existing inventory, your relations with the seller, Origin of Seller, Global power's influence on Supplier and list goes on.



Hmm have you guys thought of making your own design rifles ? I know it's very difficult but I'm sure you guys can do it , metallurgy is an issue

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## iLION12345_1

SpaceMan18 said:


> Hmm have you guys thought of making your own design rifles ? I know it's very difficult but I'm sure you guys can do it , metallurgy is an issue


Yes, the replacement for the G3 will likely be a local rifle. The first such offering was the PK-18 by POF, one of their own designs. They will probably present a new design tailored to the militaries requirements next, which will likely replace the G3.

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## Zarvan

iLION12345_1 said:


> Yes, the replacement for the G3 will likely be a local rifle. The first such offering was the PK-18 by POF, one of their own designs. They will probably present a new design tailored to the militaries requirements next, which will likely replace the G3.


Local have least chances. Army keeps rejecting POF designs over and over again

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## PanzerKiel

Zarvan said:


> Local have least chances. Army keeps rejecting POF designs over and over again


They are not of good quality either.... Barrels expand after firing few rounds, accuracy deteriorates, cone of fire expands, feeding problems, get too hot to handle...

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## iLION12345_1

Zarvan said:


> Local have least chances. Army keeps rejecting POF designs over and over again





PanzerKiel said:


> They are not of good quality either.... Barrels expand after firing few rounds, accuracy deteriorates, cone of fire expands, feeding problems, get too hot to handle...


The more times they get it wrong, the more chance they have of eventually getting it right, so it’s still good that they’re at least trying. I don’t see the military testing any other foreign rifles to replace the G3 at the moment, maybe I’m just unaware of the tests or maybe it’s just me being hopeful, but I still believe POF can put forward a competent rifle. Then again I trust the military testers with whatever they will pick.

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## wasileo80

SpaceMan18 said:


> Hmm have you guys thought of making your own design rifles ? I know it's very difficult but I'm sure you guys can do it , metallurgy is an issue


Multiple factors involved in designing of our own rifle... May be first one is we dont want to spare a chunk of money for R&D. Then after successful R&D you will have to spend alot of time on design, testing of that design and to make changes based on field test results. So its a long process. I dont know why we didnt starts this process 30 years back. Only thing we are doing is license production of existing design or make few changes in existing designs which we bought for in house serial production.
May be our top hierarcy dont want to invest in R&D, rather do trials of different vendor's products and which will suit financially and operationally, just deal with them for transfer of technology, and assemble it in house to save time and money. But i dont see this apporach giving long term benefits.


bhola record said:


> Where was captain bilal KIA?


Ghazanosar peak in peaochar vally

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## SpaceMan18

wasileo80 said:


> Multiple factors involved in designing of our own rifle... May be first one is we dont want to spare a chunk of money for R&D. Then after successful R&D you will have to spend alot of time on design, testing of that design and changes based on results. So its a long process. I dont know why we didnt starts this process 30 years back. Only thing we are doing is license production of existing design or make few changes in existing designs which we bought for in house serial production.
> May be our top hierarcy dont want to invest in R&D, rather do trials of different vendor's products and which will suit financially and operationally, just deal with them for transfer of technology, and assemble it in house to save time and money. But i dont see this apporach giving long term benefit.
> 
> Ghazanosar peak in peaochar vally



I agree , countries like Singapore and Israel were able to design their own rifles for themselves and I feel like my nation of Bangladesh can do the same along with Pakistan to start making small arms and also exporting it to other nations. 

In America where I live the gun culture is pretty live and I feel like both Pakistan and Bangladesh can make shotguns,handguns,sniper rifles to assault rifles for civilian and military use.







Singaporean SAR-21

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## wasileo80

SpaceMan18 said:


> I agree , countries like Singapore and Israel were able to design their own rifles for themselves and I feel like my nation of Bangladesh can do the same along with Pakistan to start making small arms and also exporting it to other nations.
> 
> In America where I live the gun culture is pretty live and I feel like both Pakistan and Bangladesh can make shotguns,handguns,sniper rifles to assault rifles for civilian and military use.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Singaporean SAR-21


Yes America is a big market for smalls arms and Paksitan exports good number of small arms to US but all those small arms made by PoF (Pakistan Ordanance Factory) are models of original H&K MP5 variants with litlle bit modern looks and modifications. That is it.
I am afraid that Paksitan or Bangladesh will awake from this jahalat and start investing in R&D sector, so that young scientists and students can come in and innovate new ideas and convert those ideas into technological marvalls.
But sadly, it dosent look like happening any time soon.

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## wasileo80

@PanzerKiel Sir koi galti ho gae ya kuch galat likh dia jo ap "Sad" ho gae?

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## PanzerKiel

wasileo80 said:


> @PanzerKiel Sir koi galti ho gae ya kuch galat likh dia jo ap "Sad" ho gae?


Aray nahin bhai.... 
Whatever you said is the truth... Which makes me sad....
I mean we were able to make atomic weapons 40 years ago, but couldn't make a damn rifle... Bari ajeeb baat hai....

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## bhola record

PanzerKiel said:


> Aray nahin bhai....
> Whatever you said is the truth... Which makes me sad....
> I mean we were able to make atomic weapons 40 years ago, but couldn't make a damn rifle... Bari ajeeb baat hai....


Dobara ghas khana shuru karty hain phir sir kya pata kuch ban jaye

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## PanzerKiel

PanzerKiel said:


> Aray nahin bhai....
> Whatever you said is the truth... Which makes me sad....
> I mean we were able to make atomic weapons 40 years ago, but couldn't make a damn rifle... Bari ajeeb baat hai....


Only difference is the thinking.... 
No one was ready to provide us atomic weapons. We decided to do it ourselves, even if we had to eat grass.... And we did it..... 
Today, if we again decide, with the same conviction, that we have to make a rifle.... We will, with ease...
I mean a country which can build atomic weapons each year, but couldn't make a 3 feet long rifle...


bhola record said:


> Dobara ghas khana shuru karty hain phir sir kya pata kuch ban jaye


Tussi apni jaydad waicho.. Tey fir waikho... SCAR aayi aayi..

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## wasileo80

PanzerKiel said:


> Aray nahin bhai....
> Whatever you said is the truth... Which makes me sad....
> I mean we were able to make atomic weapons 40 years ago, but couldn't make a damn rifle... Bari ajeeb baat hai....


Very true Sir, and its not about that Pakistanies are not talented, they are rich in innovative ideas but there is no supervision of these young and engergetic brains during their University level and in their professional career. Whereas, same people when go abraod and they find any opportunity they gave outstanding results in innovation and technology.

And in armed forces, you knows better why we are behind in R&D and modern production facilities. 
And if you will allow me then i can also mention those reasons as well.

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## Raja Porus

bhola record said:


> Dobara ghas khana shuru karty hain phir sir kya pata kuch ban jaye


Best one I've heard so far😂


PanzerKiel said:


> Tussi apni jaydad waicho.. Tey fir waikho... SCAR aayi aayi..


Lagda ay sanoon G3 he chalaan paway di.

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## Bilal.

PanzerKiel said:


> They are not of good quality either.... Barrels expand after firing few rounds, accuracy deteriorates, cone of fire expands, feeding problems, get too hot to handle...


How hard is it to get a couple of CHF machines and source some good quality chrome-moly barrel blanks?

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## PanzerKiel

Bilal. said:


> How hard is it to get a couple of CHF machines and source some good quality chrome-moly barrel blanks?


It's not hard getting these things... Hard is the decision to go self sufficient.... We took that decision once and became atomic power.... Imagine....

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## Bilal.

PanzerKiel said:


> It's not hard getting these things... Hard is the decision to go self sufficient.... We took that decision once and became atomic power.... Imagine....


True. Imagining how we overcame all the decision making paralysis that we suffer in pretty much every aspect for our strategic programme seems almost mythical.

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## Raja Porus

Bilal. said:


> mythical


That's the word

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## CriticalThought

Bilal. said:


> True. Imagining how we overcame all the decision making paralysis that we suffer in pretty much every aspect for our strategic programme seems almost mythical.



We didn't overcome anything. The man Bhutto had it within himself, and he basically kicked the top leadership into action. The man Zia ul Haq had something called self-respect. Aslam Baig inherited the legacy of a leader potentially murdered by the Americans. Still, we see Kashmir heating up throughout the 90s, right up till Jehangir Kiramat who supervised the nuclear explosions. But since the traitor Pervaiz Musharraf came into power, we really only have two men: Kiyani and Raheel Sharif. No wonder you have such paralysis on important decisions.

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## Bilal.

Desert Fox 1 said:


> That's the word


It would take literally less than $5 million USD to get those machines. Material wise, to start with just source the barrel blanks from established suppliers (tons of them out there).

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## bhola record

PanzerKiel said:


> It's not hard getting these things... Hard is the decision to go self sufficient.... We took that decision once and became atomic power.... Imagine....


The motivation is missing in my opinion.The reason we got a nuclear bomb was directly linked to our survival.The zest too is missing.We must motivate our people why a petty thing like a rifle is necessary and why self sufficiency is necessary.

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## CriticalThought

Bilal. said:


> It would take literally less than $5 million USD to get this machines. Material wise, to start with just source the barrel blanks from established suppliers (tons of them out their).



For producing a viable prototype, yes. But is it really your own rifle if you are dependent on spare parts of the machines and the barrel blanks? Try producing these locally and now you see the true scale of the problem, and our lack of technological depth.


bhola record said:


> The motivation is missing in my opinion.The reason we got a nuclear bomb was directly linked to our survival.The zest too is missing.We must motivate our people why a petty thing like a rifle is necessary and why self sufficiency is necessary.



It has nothing to do with survival. Today, our survival depends on not letting Kashmir, the source of our water, get into Indian hands. What are you leaders doing? Nothing. If these were leaders in 1971, who knows there might not have been a Pakistan today. Our needs are as dire as always, but we have traitors sitting at the top.

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## Bilal.

CriticalThought said:


> For producing a viable prototype, yes. But is it really your own rifle if you are dependent on spare parts of the machines and the barrel blanks? Try producing these locally and now you see the true scale of the problem, and our lack of technological depth.


Believe me, it’s not... that’s all I will say.

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## CriticalThought

Bilal. said:


> Believe me, it’s not... that’s all I will say.



Can you please be a bit more clear about what is, and what is not? Your response is a bit ambiguous.


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## Bilal.

CriticalThought said:


> Can you please be a bit more clear about what is, and what is not? Your response is a bit ambiguous.


It’s not as complicated or risky as you think. You pointed to the risk of spares for the said machines. Do you know which country the machines in our ammunition production lines in POF are from? Much more problematic and risky compared to CHF machines (good quality) available from much friendlier countries including Turkey. Blanks are also available from much less problematic countries. It doesn’t stop us from producing ammo, does it?

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## CriticalThought

Bilal. said:


> It’s not as complicated or risky as you think. You pointed to the risk of spares for the said machines. Do you know which country the machines in our ammunition production lines in POF are from? Much more problematic and risky compared to CHF machines (good quality) available from much friendlier countries including Turkey. Blanks are also available from much less problematic countries. It doesn’t stop us from producing ammo, does it?



There are a few angles from which you need to analyze any indigenization project. The first one is finance. The only way the R&D effort is worth your time and money is if it leads to exports. As soon as you try to export, your clients will look at your supply chain. What if one of your friendly countries has a contention with your client? Would your client want to place himself at risk through you? For example, what if you are placed on the FATF black list, or additional sanctions are imposed upon you? Would you be able to keep up the supply?

We like to think that indigenous projects can be done for local consumption, but we need to understand that it would not be financially viable. It resolves down to having the independent desire to be a power wielder in the world. To make the world change around you, instead of changing for the world. Look at your leadership, they are already bent double to accommodate the world. You will never get a viable local industry with this mindset.

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## Bilal.

CriticalThought said:


> There are a few angles from which you need to analyze any indigenization project. The first one is finance. The only way the R&D effort is worth your time and money is if it leads to exports. As soon as you try to export, your clients will look at your supply chain. What if one of your friendly countries has a contention with your client? Would your client want to place himself at risk through you? For example, what if you are placed on the FATF black list, or additional sanctions are imposed upon you? Would you be able to keep up the supply?
> 
> We like to think that indigenous projects can be done for local consumption, but we need to understand that it would not be financially viable. It resolves down to having the independent desire to be a power wielder in the world. To make the world change around you, instead of changing for the world. Look at your leadership, they are already bent double to accommodate the world. You will never get a viable local industry with this mindset.


So if it’s problematic to export in starting phase because you are sourcing some materials, you would rather import rifles worth a billion rather than produce it using sourced raw and semi finished material. Also there are no EUCs for barrel blanks, you can stock them and there are multiple sources.

Salami slicing brother. You are already talking about export issues while we were discussing making rifle for our needs.

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## CriticalThought

Bilal. said:


> So if it’s problematic to export in starting phase because you are sourcing some materials, you would rather import rifles worth a billion rather than produce it using sourced parts. Also there are no EUCs for barrel blanks, you can stock them and there are multiple sources.
> 
> Salami slicing brother. You are already talking about export issues while we were discussing making rifle for our needs.



I am telling you the traitors on top will never let you become independent. Otherwise I am the first person who supports power projection and indigenization. Your aims for indigenization are being monitored by enemies who have their puppets in influential places, understand this.

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## Bilal.

CriticalThought said:


> I am telling you the traitors on top will never let you become independent. Otherwise I am the first person who supports power projection and indigenization. Your aims for indigenization are being monitored by enemies who have their puppets in influential places, understand this.


So we agree technically and financially it’s very much doable with relative ease

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## WinterFangs

Why doesn’t Pakistan try to develop and make a bullpup rifle, could take a long time to perfect it but could be eventually worth it.


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## Bilal.

WinterFangs said:


> Why doesn’t Pakistan try to develop and make a bullpup rifle, could take a long time to perfect it but could be eventually worth it.


Bullpups are not preferred by most end users. Mag change is harder and too much gas on the face.

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## CriticalThought

Bilal. said:


> So we agree technically and financially it’s very much doable with relative ease



If the aim is to import machinery and materials and design a rifle, yes. Btw, you haven't discussed the testing machines which will test the finished product. You haven't discussed the carbon polymers and which friendly countries would be supplying those. And finally, once you have imported everything and designed around that, you have no local capacity to improve upon it. Can you invent a new polymer, or an entirely new material for the gun casing? Can you invent new techniques to observe your weapon in slow motion and at microscopic levels, so you can make mathematical models of stress and defects, and then improve upon it? If not, you have achieved a pyrrhic victory. It is a feel good thing.


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## CriticalThought

@Bilal. and others on this thread. Here is food for thought. From 2008-2015 Pakistan was on the FATF blacklist. During this period, we all know that very few Al-Khalid tanks were produced. Do you see a correlation here? Why would anyone want to buy Al-Khalid from us? When you can't export, the project makes less financial sense. In the end, you import VT-4s from China. Do you see how this works? @Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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## TsAr

PanzerKiel said:


> They are not of good quality either.... Barrels expand after firing few rounds, accuracy deteriorates, cone of fire expands, feeding problems, get too hot to handle...


are we making the barrels of G3 ourselves or are we importing them?

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## Bilal.

CriticalThought said:


> If the aim is to import machinery and materials and design a rifle, yes. Btw, you haven't discussed the testing machines which will test the finished product. You haven't discussed the carbon polymers and which friendly countries would be supplying those. And finally, once you have imported everything and designed around that, you have no local capacity to improve upon it. Can you invent a new polymer, or an entirely new material for the gun casing? Can you invent new techniques to observe your weapon in slow motion and at microscopic levels, so you can make mathematical models of stress and defects, and then improve upon it? If not, you have achieved a pyrrhic victory. It is a feel good thing.





CriticalThought said:


> @Bilal. and others on this thread. Here is food for thought. From 2008-2015 Pakistan was on the FATF blacklist. During this period, we all know that very few Al-Khalid tanks were produced. Do you see a correlation here? Why would anyone want to buy Al-Khalid from us? When you can't export, the project makes less financial sense. In the end, you import VT-4s from China. Do you see how this works? @Bilal Khan (Quwa)


Buddy your arguments are all over the place. Traitors at the top, export issue, machine spares, carbon polymers?, design validation, FATF.

It’s an extreme case of analysis paralysis...

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

CriticalThought said:


> @Bilal. and others on this thread. Here is food for thought. From 2008-2015 Pakistan was on the FATF blacklist. During this period, we all know that very few Al-Khalid tanks were produced. Do you see a correlation here? Why would anyone want to buy Al-Khalid from us? When you can't export, the project makes less financial sense. In the end, you import VT-4s from China. Do you see how this works? @Bilal Khan (Quwa)


Possibly, but I suspect the COIN/CT ops during that time took a lot of the armed forces' fiscal resources.

In 2016, it had seemed like we fell into a 'peace dividend' (funds freeing up) and, in turn, initiated the Haider MBT (i.e., VT4), attack helicopter (T129), additional Erieye AEW&C, new assault rifle, and naval programs.

The issue is why go for the VT4 when we already had the al-Khalid? Why not force HIT to once again manufacture the al-Khalid at full capacity (50 tanks per year)? Though modest, the al-Khalid still draws on the local economy in various ways (albeit mostly with labour and some parts), but we could've expanded that with targeted R&D for more sub-systems and components.

Yes, exporting helps build a direct ROI for the facility, but the macroeconomic ROI is the savings you accrue in hard-currency by reducing imports. Moreover, you create a stimulus for the domestic economy, incentivize R&D in the private sector (i.e., growth and investment), and other positive factors. For example, Pakistan may have been able to indigenize more of the al-Khalid's key inputs, and while it can't sell the whole tank, it might have an easier time exporting those inputs to other places. 

Our planners didn't think about this because they aren't economists, they're fauj -- there's a limit to what they know, and we're seeing it. Overall, I'm fine with the Army owning HIT, POF, et. al, but they need to delegate the day-to-day management to actual professionals in engineering, finance, corporate management, etc. Moreover, they need to rope in economic and trade experts in their negotiations for foreign arms so that we can drill offsets, ToT, etc, at a more effective level.

I like Turkey's model of running TAI. Their equivalent to Fauji Foundation basically serves as the Board of Directors, but the entire corporate management aspect is run by professionals in those fields. Their equivalent to the MoDP -- i.e., the SSB -- is also run by an engineer / scientist, and exerts a lot of authority over the MS-SOEs to ensure synergy, horizontal IP sharing, etc.

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## CriticalThought

Bilal. said:


> Buddy your arguments are all over the place. Traitors at the top, export issue, machine spares, carbon polymers?, design validation, FATF.
> 
> It’s an extreme case of analysis paralysis...



Or, you are tying yourself into knots getting a handle on a complex issue. Let me sort this out for you.

1. You can definitely import everything and design something locally.
2. Then you try to improve upon it. Do you have the materials science and mechanical engineering knowledge, and the equipment needed to gather data and mathematically analyze the performance of your weapon? No. You are now limited by what you can import. Decades may pass, and you are stuck with one weapon. Does somebody remember G3?
3. Your suppliers see that you have rolled out the weapon to a large number of your soldiers. Now they jack up the prices of key spares and materials. What do you do?
4. When you try to export the weapon, your clients are astute enough to analyze points 1-3 above and they deem you a risky manufacturer.
5. In order to sort this mess, you need investment into core engineering and technology which traitorous leaders will not allow.
6. Adding to the problems above are the sharks in international markets who are guarding their turf by hook and by crook, and they will add to the woes in 1-5 any way they can. FATF, spares, or anything else.

Does this make more sense to you?

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## Bilal.

CriticalThought said:


> Or, you are tying yourself into knots getting a handle on a complex issue. Let me sort this out for you.
> 
> 1. You can definitely import everything and design something locally.
> 2. Then you try to improve upon it. Do you have the materials science and mechanical engineering knowledge, and the equipment needed to gather data and mathematically analyze the performance of your weapon? No. You are now limited by what you can import. Decades may pass, and you are stuck with one weapon. Does somebody remember G3?
> 3. Your suppliers see that you have rolled out the weapon to a large number of your soldiers. Now they jack up the prices of key spares and materials. What do you do?
> 4. When you try to export the weapon, your clients are astute enough to analyze points 1-3 above and they deem you a risky manufacturer.
> 5. In order to sort this mess, you need investment into core engineering and technology which traitorous leaders will not allow.
> 6. Adding to the problems above are the sharks in international markets who are guarding their turf by hook and by crook, and they will add to the woes in 1-5 any way they can. FATF, spares, or anything else.
> 
> Does this make more sense to you?



yes it makes perfect sense:

1.If I get up in the morning I might get dizzy and fall an hurt my self
2. If not I can get into an accident while driving to work
3. My boss may not be in a good mood and fire me
4. Or I can slip on office floor and break a bone

All possible but hypothetical and a “risk” everyone takes on daily basis

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## CriticalThought

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Possibly, but I suspect the COIN/CT ops during that time took a lot of the armed forces' fiscal resources.
> 
> In 2016, it had seemed like we fell into a 'peace dividend' (funds freeing up) and, in turn, initiated the Haider MBT (i.e., VT4), attack helicopter (T129), additional Erieye AEW&C, new assault rifle, and naval programs.
> 
> The issue is why go for the VT4 when we already had the al-Khalid? Why not force HIT to once again manufacture the al-Khalid at full capacity (50 tanks per year)? Though modest, the al-Khalid still draws on the local economy in various ways (albeit mostly with labour and some parts), but we could've expanded that with targeted R&D for more sub-systems and components.
> 
> Yes, exporting helps build a direct ROI for the facility, but the macroeconomic ROI is the savings you accrue in hard-currency by reducing imports. Moreover, you create a stimulus for the domestic economy, incentivize R&D in the private sector (i.e., growth and investment), and other positive factors. Our planners didn't think about this because they aren't economists, they're fauj -- there's a limit to what they know, and we're seeing it.



The spanner in the works are they key components that you need to import. Engine being one of them. The right grade of steel alloys being another. Electronics is another. The world doesn't want you to become a military power. Why will the world give you an easy and reliable supply of key components at cheap prices? The world has wares of its own to peddle. Why wouldn't they try their very best to engineer a situation where you are forced to buy from them?

That war on terror was orchestrated by America. The training, the tactics, even the camouflage uniforms reek of America. You were supplying the manpower. Even if your generals orchestrated attacks, their planning is reminiscent of American tactics in Afghanistan. So don't discount the effect of FATF blacklist on your indigenous programs.


Bilal. said:


> yes it makes perfect sense:
> 
> 1.If I get up in the morning I might get dizzy and fall an hurt my self
> 2. If not I can get into an accident while driving to work
> 3. My boss may not be in a good mood and fire me
> 4. Or I can slip on office floor and break a bone
> 
> All possible but hypothetical and a “risk” everyone takes on daily basis



If you want to be non-serious, I can't help you. But for anyone interested, I have laid down the serious and realistic problems that are a hurdle to our indigenous efforts.


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## Bilal.

CriticalThought said:


> If you want to be non-serious, I can't help you. But for anyone interested, I have laid down the serious and realistic problems that are a hurdle to our indigenous efforts.


Not being non-serious. Just saying everyone attempting anything faces potential risks of varying probability and impact (risk management 101). But that does not stop things from being undertaken.


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## CriticalThought

Bilal. said:


> Not being non-serious. Just saying everyone attempting anything faces potential risks of varying probability and impact (risk management 101). But that does not stop things from being undertaken.



But in our case, they are being stopped. Why?


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## Bilal.

CriticalThought said:


> But in our case, they are being stopped. Why?


What’s being stopped? The discussion was actually about possible solutions to resolve technical issues being faced on local products barrel.

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## CriticalThought

Bilal. said:


> What’s being stopped? The discussion was actually about possible solutions to resolve technical issues being phased on local products barrel.



The discussion was about the viability of locally designed rifles, and your solution was to import some machines and barrels. A naive, knee jerk solution to a complex problem. If the solution you propose never gets adopted, there are only three conclusions: the top leadership is traitorous, or your solution is bogus, or the leaders are traitors and your solution is bogus. Go read my posts again, it might help.

On the other hand, if your solution does get adopted, I am still uncertain we would see a wide roll out of indigenous rifles, for all the reasons listed in m previous posts. Go make it happen, then come back and discuss.


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## Bilal.

CriticalThought said:


> The discussion was about the viability of locally designed rifles, and your solution was to import some machines and barrels. A naive, knee jerk solution to a complex problem. If the solution you propose never gets adopted, there are only three conclusions: the top leadership is traitorous, or your solution is bogus, or the leaders are traitors and your solution is bogus. Go read my posts again, it might help.
> 
> On the other hand, if your solution does get adopted, I am still uncertain we would see a wide roll out of indigenous rifles, for all the reasons listed in m previous posts. Go make it happen, then come back and discuss.


Ok

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

CriticalThought said:


> The spanner in the works are they key components that you need to import. Engine being one of them. The right grade of steel alloys being another. Electronics is another. The world doesn't want you to become a military power. Why will the world give you an easy and reliable supply of key components at cheap prices? The world has wares of its own to peddle. Why wouldn't they try their very best to engineer a situation where you are forced to buy from them?
> 
> That war on terror was orchestrated by America. The training, the tactics, even the camouflage uniforms reek of America. You were supplying the manpower. Even if your generals orchestrated attacks, their planning is reminiscent of American tactics in Afghanistan. So don't discount the effect of FATF blacklist on your indigenous programs.
> 
> 
> If you want to be non-serious, I can't help you. But for anyone interested, I have laid down the serious and realistic problems that are a hurdle to our indigenous efforts.


Yep...but if the world now also includes China, then it means we have to vastly review Pakistan's place and its goals. I am 100% aligned with 'total independence', but as you said, our leaders (and to an extent even people) aren't.


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## CriticalThought

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Yep...but if the world now also includes China, then it means we have to vastly review Pakistan's place and its goals. I am 100% aligned with 'total independence', but as you said, our leaders (and to an extent even people) aren't.



It's a sensitive topic, but suffice to say, if a trustworthy leadership were sitting on the top, we wouldn't need to be discussing sensitive topics here. But you can understand how my reasoning applies to the world in general.


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## Reichmarshal

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Possibly, but I suspect the COIN/CT ops during that time took a lot of the armed forces' fiscal resources.
> 
> In 2016, it had seemed like we fell into a 'peace dividend' (funds freeing up) and, in turn, initiated the Haider MBT (i.e., VT4), attack helicopter (T129), additional Erieye AEW&C, new assault rifle, and naval programs.
> 
> The issue is why go for the VT4 when we already had the al-Khalid? Why not force HIT to once again manufacture the al-Khalid at full capacity (50 tanks per year)? Though modest, the al-Khalid still draws on the local economy in various ways (albeit mostly with labour and some parts), but we could've expanded that with targeted R&D for more sub-systems and components.
> 
> Yes, exporting helps build a direct ROI for the facility, but the macroeconomic ROI is the savings you accrue in hard-currency by reducing imports. Moreover, you create a stimulus for the domestic economy, incentivize R&D in the private sector (i.e., growth and investment), and other positive factors. For example, Pakistan may have been able to indigenize more of the al-Khalid's key inputs, and while it can't sell the whole tank, it might have an easier time exporting those inputs to other places.
> 
> Our planners didn't think about this because they aren't economists, they're fauj -- there's a limit to what they know, and we're seeing it. Overall, I'm fine with the Army owning HIT, POF, et. al, but they need to delegate the day-to-day management to actual professionals in engineering, finance, corporate management, etc. Moreover, they need to rope in economic and trade experts in their negotiations for foreign arms so that we can drill offsets, ToT, etc, at a more effective level.
> 
> I like Turkey's model of running TAI. Their equivalent to Fauji Foundation basically serves as the Board of Directors, but the entire corporate management aspect is run by professionals in those fields. Their equivalent to the MoDP -- i.e., the SSB -- is also run by an engineer / scientist, and exerts a lot of authority over the MS-SOEs to ensure synergy, horizontal IP sharing, etc.


so who told u that HIT is not making Al khalid ?
HIT is working at full tilt and is equipping an armor unit a year. It been upgraded n retooled.
the problem is not that HIT is not working at full tilt but the problem stems from the fact that PA has to replace tanks in their thousands NOW. even if HIT were to continue to work at full capacity it will take it more than a couple of decades to replace them all.
and time is one luxury that Pakistan does not have, especially when it is staring down a barrel.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Reichmarshal said:


> so who told u that HIT is not making Al khalid ?
> HIT is working at full tilt and is equipping an armor unit a year. It been upgraded n retooled.
> the problem is not that HIT is not working at full tilt but the problem stems from the fact that PA has to replace tanks in their thousands NOW. even if HIT were to continue to work at full capacity it will take it more than a couple of decades to replace them all.
> and time is one luxury that Pakistan does not have, especially when it is staring down a barrel.


HIT said it isn't working at full capacity.

It can roll-out 50 al-Khalid MBTs a year, yet it only produces around 20-25 per year (see every MoDP report in the last 4-5 years).

_The committee was told that HIT has a capacity to produce 50 tanks per year but they are making 18 tanks on average due to *budgetary constraints*. _





__





Ministry of defence production: Senate body proposes direct access to budgetary allocations – Business Recorder







fp.brecorder.com





Finally, even if it reached full capacity, why not expand the capacity through the private sector? The private sector will invest to set-up the capacity if the Army commits to spend Pakistan's money on Pakistan (instead of China or Turkey or wherever else).

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## Reichmarshal

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> HIT itself said it isn't working at full capacity. It can roll-out 50 al-Khalid MBTs a year, yet it only produces around 20-25 per year (see every MoDP report in the last 4-5 years).
> 
> _The committee was told that HIT has a capacity to produce 50 tanks per year but they are making 18 tanks on average due to *budgetary constraints*. _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ministry of defence production: Senate body proposes direct access to budgetary allocations – Business Recorder
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> fp.brecorder.com


 wt your quoting is from old sources.
wt i am telling u is NOW.....wt ur telling us more than a few years old.

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## GriffinsRule

Reichmarshal said:


> wt your quoting is from old sources.
> wt i am telling u is NOW.....wt ur telling us more than a few years old.


Well then its the HITs fault at not upgrading a decade ago. The army is still at fault for piss poor planning

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## iLION12345_1

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> HIT said it isn't working at full capacity.
> 
> It can roll-out 50 al-Khalid MBTs a year, yet it only produces around 20-25 per year (see every MoDP report in the last 4-5 years).
> 
> _The committee was told that HIT has a capacity to produce 50 tanks per year but they are making 18 tanks on average due to *budgetary constraints*. _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ministry of defence production: Senate body proposes direct access to budgetary allocations – Business Recorder
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> fp.brecorder.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Finally, even if it reached full capacity, why not expand the capacity through the private sector? The private sector will invest to set-up the capacity if the Army commits to spend Pakistan's money on Pakistan (instead of China or Turkey or wherever else).



That report is accurate, but only for the years until 2018-19. The budget constraints were due to the war on terror, especially Zarb-e-azb, in fact the entire naval acquisition budget was being given to the army and airforce to help with the war on terror effort. Which is why the navy got left so far behind.
Since 2019 HIT has been at full production capacity due to the war on terror coming to an end, Still not producing 50 tanks a year, though it has that capability, but it is certainly making a lot more than before and being retooled + upgraded with robotic production arms etc.
I visited it again just last year 

I do however agree with the privatization part, they really need to let private parties join into HIT to help it expand rapidly. The same applies with the rest of the Pakistani defence industry.



GriffinsRule said:


> Well then its the HITs fault at not upgrading a decade ago. The army is still at fault for piss poor planning



The war on terror started around 2003 for us and since 2007 money was pretty short, all the way until 2018, there were more serious places to put that money into than upgrading HIT.

This is also the reason the AK-1 induction came so Late despite the tank being finished years prior, because the AK project and production was very slow from 2009-14 and nearly halted from 14-16 for the same reasons as above. Ideally the AK-1 would have been inducted 3-4 years earlier and we would be nearing AK-2 now. But at least things are back on track now with AK-1 under full production and AK-2 under development.

The head of the AK-1 and 2 projects was my classmates father, I got to ask him a few questions about it, which is how I know some of the stuff above.
imo All things considered, AK as a long term project has been handled decently well.

Tying that in to the actual topic: We just need private companies to be able to jump in, that would help with small arms design too. It’s impossible for a country of 200 million to not have people who can’t design a decent firearm, when countries with populations smaller than Lahore can do the same.

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## bananarepublic

@Zarvan while I was traveling around Gilgit city today I saw GB scouts with brand new AKs all back similar to the ones POF had displayed in the past. 
Only difference I was able to see in a glance was the stock, it had similar piped stock to this.

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## Reichmarshal

GriffinsRule said:


> Well then its the HITs fault at not upgrading a decade ago. The army is still at fault for piss poor planning


Had you come forward n funded the retooling of HIT.
I am sure it would have been done a decade ago

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## bananarepublic

__ https://www.facebook.com/125086242616/posts/10157866122717617




Spot the gun

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## Reichmarshal

iLION12345_1 said:


> Tying that in to the actual topic: We just need private companies to be able to jump in, that would help with small arms design too. It’s impossible for a country of 200 million to not have people who can’t design a decent firearm, when countries with populations smaller than Lahore can do the same.



The state of our private enterprise is not somthing to write home about.
HIT and the rest of the defence military complex are all for indeginazation and for local companies to flourish and give alot of leeway to this effect.
eg HIT wanted our local companies to make the rubber around the bogey wheels which is the most basic component of a tank.
But unfortunatly our local industry failed to even make this very reduamentry component.

Having said that all is not doom and gloom as a friend of mine an electrical engineer from eme college is making components for Boeing and he is not a lone story but countless people are making waves on an individual basis.
Wt needs to be done is to chanalise all this talent and know how.

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## GriffinsRule

Reichmarshal said:


> Had you come forward n funded the retooling of HIT.
> I am sure it would have been done a decade ago


Nah I'm paying taxes where I'm working already. People in Pakistan need to pay their share

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## bhola record

Reichmarshal said:


> The state of our private enterprise is not somthing to write home about.
> HIT and the rest of the defence military complex are all for indeginazation and for local companies to flourish and give alot of leeway to this effect.
> eg HIT wanted our local companies to made the rubber around the bogey wheels which is the most basic component of a tank.
> But unfortunatly our local industry failed to even make this very reduamentry component.
> 
> Having said that all is not doom and gloom as a friend of mine an electrical engineer from eme college is making components for Boeing and he is not a lone story but countless people are making waves on an individual basis.
> Wt needs to be done is to chanalise all this talent and know how.


A country in which we waste thousands of rounds of bullets in wedding reception as celebration I am surprised there is not a private owned ordinance factory. I hope in upcoming years situation improves. Would love it if one of our esteemed Defense.pk members starts it.

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## PanzerKiel

bhola record said:


> A country in which we waste thousands of rounds of bullets in wedding reception as celebration I am surprised there is not a private owned ordinance factory. I hope in upcoming years situation improves. Would love it if one of our esteemed Defense.pk members starts it.

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## Reichmarshal

bhola record said:


> A country in which we waste thousands of rounds of bullets in wedding reception as celebration I am surprised there is not a private owned ordinance factory. I hope in upcoming years situation improves. Would love it if one of our esteemed Defense.pk members starts it.


We waste millions of rounds....in a single event we waste thousands.
Lots of individuals make bullets them self.....to be more precise fill the casings them selves.
But the problems with dasi bullets is the number of grains in a bullet, which no one knows n differ from round to round.

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## bhola record

Reichmarshal said:


> We waste millions of rounds....in a single event we waste thousands.
> Lots of individuals make bullets them self.....to be more precise fill the casings them selves.
> But the problems with dasi bullets is the number of grains in a bullet, which no one knows n differ from round to round.


You see gun culture is pretty good but the guns are not.

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## CriticalThought

PanzerKiel said:


>



These are criminals!!!! They don't represent our society.

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## merzifonlu

I do not understand what you are trying to do. There is an endless mess here. The tender has not been finalized and you still need a family of modern infantry weapons.

The smartest thing you can do is to establish a joint R&D center with us Turks and contribute money and brainpower to perfect the weapons that we have developed and have not perfected yet.

OK, the MPT-76 may not have passed the tests, but since then we have continued to refine the gun. Soon it will come fully to the perfection we want. At that time, the development of the weapon family will be completed, and you can only obtain the gun from us under license production. 

You will miss the opportunity to learn the subject cheaply and in depth.

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## python-000

CriticalThought said:


> These are criminals!!!! They don't represent our society.


If zardari & nawaz the lords of all crimenals & corruption can become a PM & Presedent of Pakistan so what do you sa about these little rats crimenals....


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## PanzerKiel

merzifonlu said:


> I do not understand what you are trying to do. There is an endless mess here. The tender has not been finalized and you still need a family of modern infantry weapons.
> 
> The smartest thing you can do is to establish a joint R&D center with us Turks and contribute money and brainpower to perfect the weapons that we have developed and have not perfected yet.
> 
> OK, the MPT-76 may not have passed the tests, but since then we have continued to refine the gun. Soon it will come fully to the perfection we want. At that time, the development of the weapon family will be completed, and you can only obtain the gun from us under license production.
> 
> You will miss the opportunity to learn the subject cheaply and in depth.


MPT did pass. It's competition with SCAR was neck to neck....

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## merzifonlu

PanzerKiel said:


> MPT did pass. It's competition with SCAR was neck to neck....


So what's the problem? The MPT-76 has been refined even more since then. We have also developed 5,56 mm caliber rifles (MPT-56) that use the same mechanism.

Either go buy the whole weapon set at a huge discount from Russia, or set up an R&D center with us when you have the opportunity and learn the subject cheaply and in depth.

You have been discussing SCAR rifles for 480 pages in this forum. And still the Pakistan Army needs modern rifles. This problem has not been resolved.

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## That Guy

Reichmarshal said:


> We waste millions of rounds....in a single event we waste thousands.
> Lots of individuals make bullets them self.....to be more precise fill the casings them selves.
> But the problems with dasi bullets is the number of grains in a bullet, which no one knows n differ from round to round.


A cousin of mine fired a gun at a wedding in celebration, needless to say, my uncle slapped the crap out of him in front of everyone over and over again lol

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## iLION12345_1

merzifonlu said:


> So what's the problem? The MPT-76 has been refined even more since then. We have also developed 5,56 mm caliber rifles (MPT-56) that use the same mechanism.
> 
> Either go buy the whole weapon set at a huge discount from Russia, or set up an R&D center with us when you have the opportunity and learn the subject cheaply and in depth.
> 
> You have been discussing SCAR rifles for 480 pages in this forum. And still the Pakistan Army needs modern rifles. This problem has not been resolved.


Because this is a forum that has no relation to the actual military, people can talk here for a thousand pages and it won’t have much effect on the military procurement. 
Pakistan can’t just look at a rifle and go “we want this” because they need a massive number of it and the logistics, production and prices of it all need to be considered, among other places where the money is needed. Plus the thread was not all for nothing, if you read through it there’s actually developments about how the procurement project advanced and has been advancing.

Older AKs are already being replaced by newer ones, which is one step already. The G3 replacement will come in time too. We trust the military testers and what they will do and pick.

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## Path-Finder

merzifonlu said:


> You have been discussing SCAR rifles for 480 pages in this forum. And still the Pakistan Army needs modern rifles. This problem has not been resolved.


Come on it's only one person that's been banging the FN SCAR drum and that our Hazrat @Zarvan

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## Zarvan



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## Khanate

Zarvan said:


> View attachment 731690





Our daily dose of FN SCAR has arrived.

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## Path-Finder




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## Path-Finder



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## Riz

Zarvan said:


> View attachment 731690


Buchi dikha rahy ho yaa gun??


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## Raja Porus

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1382657059603234818


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## iLION12345_1

Desert Fox 1 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1382657059603234818


That picture is about 4 years old, or more.

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## SurvivoR

Yep was there saw it live up close... Was an awesome spectacle to behold.


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## Raja Porus

Is this from the trials?





Ignore the text.


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## Zarvan

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Is this from the trials?
> View attachment 739514
> 
> Ignore the text.


Yes. Also it's time we close this thread. Pakistan is not going to go for new Rifle it's quite clear now. So it's useless to keep this thread running. 

@The Eagle

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## RAMPAGE

Zarvan said:


> As it is now fully confirmed that Pakistan has decided to replace G3 with a new standard weapon. For this a board of Army officers led by a Major General will evaluate all major Guns used by leading militaries in the world and one of them will be chosen for Pakistan so it's time to discuss potential candidates and their features.
> By the way MPT-76 are first to come for evaluation.
> @WebMaster @Horus @Oscar @Irfan Baloch @balixd @Icarus @kaonalpha @syedali73 @Sulman Badshah @Wolfhound @nair @SpArK @GURU DUTT @Imran Khan @Arsalan @RescueRanger @Bratva @Slav Defence @ajpirzada @DESERT FIGHTER @



Can't believe this was almost six years ago.

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Yes. Also it's time we close this thread. Pakistan is not going to go for new Rifle it's quite clear now. So it's useless to keep this thread running.
> 
> @The Eagle


not only did you make yourself a chawal but you went on a chawal daydream lasting 6 years to become what cannot be said lightly, a FN SCAR extremist!

The lesson to learn (though nothing can penetrate your brain barrier) never go to the extreme on anything.

got to be cruel to be kind before anyone else gets their knickers in a twist.

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## denel

Path-Finder said:


> not only did you make yourself a chawal but you went on a chawal daydream lasting 6 years to become what cannot be said lightly, a FN SCAR extremist!
> 
> The lesson to learn (though nothing can penetrate your brain barrier) never go the extreme on anything.
> 
> got to be cruel to be kind before anyone else gets their knickers in a twist.


IT was a great thread but i concur, let us conclude it. all things have to come to an end

@Zarvan - bro... KUDOS for the PASSION and bringing fire to us all to salivate and enjoy different options.

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> not only did you make yourself a chawal but you went on a chawal daydream lasting 6 years to become what cannot be said lightly, a FN SCAR extremist!
> 
> The lesson to learn (though nothing can penetrate your brain barrier) never go to the extreme on anything.
> 
> got to be cruel to be kind before anyone else gets their knickers in a twist.


I didn't made myself of a chawwal. Pakistan is not going for new Rifle because it was SCAR we were negotiating for and the company refused to give TOT despite the fact they agreed first and that was the reason they were invited in the trials. The talks went on for almost two years.


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> I didn't made myself of a chawwal. Pakistan is not going for new Rifle because it was SCAR we were negotiating for and the company refused to give TOT despite the fact they agreed first and that was the reason they were invited in the trials. The talks went on for almost two years.


Hazrat the chawal part is in light to the excessive fanboyism(now don't deny that you didn't do that) over one bleeding rifle. No matter what anyone says but you made your own lala land and lived in it. over a bleeding rifle!! 

anyway.


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat the chawal part is in light to the excessive fanboyism(now don't deny that you didn't do that) over one bleeding rifle. No matter what anyone says but you made your own lala land and lived in it. over a bleeding rifle!!
> 
> anyway.


There was no fanboyism. If a rifle performed best in our trials I won't change the facts to make you happy. That rifle won and that is why we kept talking with the company for two years trying to get the deal. Yes few other Rifles did good too. But SCAR over all was marked the best one by forces and they tried to reach a deal. For sometime I have no news so we can be considering some Rifle even now but now in my opinion time to close the thread and whenever Army breaks the news we would all know.


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> There was no fanboyism. If a rifle performed best in our trials I won't change the facts to make you happy. That rifle won and that is why we kept talking with the company for two years trying to get the deal. Yes few other Rifles did good too. But SCAR over all was marked the best one by forces and they tried to reach a deal. For sometime I have no news so we can be considering some Rifle even now but now in my opinion time to close the thread and whenever Army breaks the news we would all know.


here is an Idea Hazrat you can ask the forum members, if you deem me bias towards 'tawadi' FN SCAR. I am not the only person on the board who bore witness to your antics!! Secondly there have been plausible reports posted that NO RIFLE WAS OVERALL THE BEST. SOME DID WELL IN SOME PARTS AND SOME DID BETTER IN OTHERS. THAT IS WHY MORE THAN ONE MANUFACTURER WAS SHORTLISTED. 

now you may continue with lala land and FN SCAR.


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## GriffinsRule

Regardless of ones favorite rifle or another, I did learn a lot from this thread. No need to close it per say as it has a wealth of knowledge as well imo.

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## Thorough Pro

useless setup, I would go with a tried and tested MP5 with better terminal ballistics out of the same round



Desert Fox 1 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1382657059603234818


I would feel really proud if PA goes with a 100% local design even if does not look as sexy as any other western system. Just like thunder, the local design will improve and be at par with any western system within a decade because of the huge volumes and constant production run.


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## Scorpiooo

Thorough Pro said:


> useless setup, I would go with a tried and tested MP5 with better terminal ballistics out of the same round
> 
> 
> I would feel really proud if PA goes with a 100% local design even if does not look as sexy as any other western system. Just like thunder, the local design will improve and be at par with any western system within a decade because of the huge volumes and constant production run.


Hope POC able providr something that can satisfy PA


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## Zarvan



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## Ahmet Pasha

I bet CZ was really really disappointed by PA and will they come again if invited by POF/PA??

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) what happened to the MoIs signed between POF and CZ about new machinery and other equipment??

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## Super Falcon

What is the current status of replecment prog i heared zarvan saying pak scrapped it should have not bought vt 4 but bought most important gun


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## Zarvan

Super Falcon said:


> What is the current status of replecment prog i heared zarvan saying pak scrapped it should have not bought vt 4 but bought most important gun


I have no news yet. It could have been scrapped but then you out of the blue could see a breaking news on TV. Pakistan Army is full of surprises these days. So just relax if they would like to announce or show they would do it on their own time. 

@PanzerKiel

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## fitpOsitive

Buy ak 107. The best of AKs. Will fit good with us.

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## PanzerKiel

iLION12345_1 said:


> Yea the muzzle break and the mag are a giveaway. But AK-103 doesn’t have to be in a single configuration (I.e. the one shown in the videos by the Klashnikov factory). Weapons are in many variants, any type of modern AK over the old Chinese ones is welcome. Even if it’s not exactly a 103.


Almost 10k AK-103s are about to come, some are already here..... Not for regular army for now...

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## mingle

PanzerKiel said:


> Almost 10k AK-103s are about to come, some are already here..... Not for regular army for now...


Local assembly??


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## PanzerKiel

mingle said:


> Local assembly??


Nopes, direct procurement.... We'll be seeing plenty of AK 103s in the hands of units under MoI in the very near future.

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## mingle

PanzerKiel said:


> Nopes, direct procurement.... We'll be seeing plenty of AK 103s in the hands of units under MoI in the very near future.


Any big ticket items from Russia since Rumours about Putin visit? You know he won't come without reason a pure businessman style other than Gas pipeline?

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## Ahmet Pasha

PanzerKiel said:


> Nopes, direct procurement.... We'll be seeing plenty of AK 103s in the hands of units under MoI in the very near future.


MoI so FC and Rangers or IB??

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## PanzerKiel

Ahmet Pasha said:


> MoI so FC and Rangers or IB??


Exactly, FC primarily, not for IB.... you can take it as a start of another massive rearmament program of the whole FC.

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## mingle

PanzerKiel said:


> Exactly, FC primarily, not for IB.... you can take it as a start of another massive rearmament program of the whole FC.


FC should have own drones Helis Gunships wheels APCs as frontline soldiers at western border I also want one more corp in Balochistan based Gawader or central part not Quetta


PanzerKiel said:


> Nopes, direct procurement.... We'll be seeing plenty of AK 103s in the hands of units under MoI in the very near future.


Anyway its a great news for Hazrat @Zarvan

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

mingle said:


> FC should have own drones Helis Gunships wheels APCs as frontline soldiers at western border I also want one more corp in Balochistan based Gawader or central part not Quetta
> 
> Anyway its a great news for Hazrat @Zarvan


I don't think the Army would allow another major army to form out of the Ministry of Interior.

The correct approach would be to re-organize FC, Rangers, etc, into a 'National Guard' and then place said force under the control of Army GHQ. In turn, Army GHQ gives the National Guard one mandate: manage the internal security affairs of Pakistan. The advantage of this approach is that the National Guard won't be seen as a threat to the Army, but at the same time, could get its own attack helicopters, transport helicopters, etc.

BTW, this wouldn't be unprecedented in Pakistan. The PN already runs the Maritime Security Agency.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I don't think the Army would allow another major army to form out of the Ministry of Interior.
> 
> The correct approach would be to re-organize FC, Rangers, etc, into a 'National Guard' and then place said force under the control of Army GHQ. In turn, Army GHQ gives the National Guard one mandate: manage the internal security affairs of Pakistan. The advantage of this approach is that the National Guard won't be seen as a threat to the Army, but at the same time, could get its own attack helicopters, transport helicopters, etc.
> 
> BTW, this wouldn't be unprecedented in Pakistan. The PN already runs the Maritime Security Agency.


Thus this national guard might also have scale to buy equipment on a greater level and have more commonality of equipment. Instead of FC and Rangers operating different hardware.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Thus this national guard might also have scale to buy equipment on a greater level and have more commonality of equipment. Instead of FC and Rangers operating different hardware.


Yep. Ideally, when GHQ makes procurement decisions, it would do so with the National Guard in mind. This approach may generate some economies of scale to support local development in more areas (e.g., helicopters) too.

If we really want to take things up a notch, then we could look at setting up a Special Operations Force Command. Get each service arm (e.g., PA, PAF, PN) to contribute, but set up a common infrastructure and capacity point to support their respective SSG/SSW operations. So shared helicopters, ISR aircraft, vehicles, 'boats', and so on. So whenever there's an SSG ops, they can call upon SOFCOM to provide equipment support. This is where you can add turboprop attack planes, gunship-type transports, etc.

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## iLION12345_1

PanzerKiel said:


> Almost 10k AK-103s are about to come, some are already here..... Not for regular army for now...


Good to know sir.

I’ve been looking at the AKs in use by the army already and have found some sort of a pattern. Currently it seems two (?) types of AKs are still being inducted. The Chinese Type 56-II with the side folding stocks and Bakelite furniture, and then another AK with polymer furniture and either a fixed tactical stock or an under folder (I consider these the same because the only difference is the stock). The under folder looks very similar to the one that was shown at POF. Leads me to believe that these two are being made at POF under AK-103 designation, even though they lack certain features of the 103 (namely the muzzle break and the polymer mag. The stock is also Different, dare I say better, than the actual 103. I also assume these are from POF because I cannot find who else makes these or where we imported them from. If so POF is making a rather modern AK.











































Here are plenty of pictures of all three, pretty easy to tell the difference.
There are also a few actual 103s in service with both the SSG and regulars. We might see just these two being fully inducted or more actual 103s joining their ranks later.

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## iLION12345_1

PanzerKiel said:


> Exactly, FC primarily, not for IB.... you can take it as a start of another massive rearmament program of the whole FC.


Makes sense. Army is already being rearmed, this is another step in the long term process to Make FC strong enough that minimal army presence is needed on western borders. FC can deal with any ANA or terrorism scum.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Yep. Ideally, when GHQ makes procurement decisions, it would do so with the National Guard in mind. This approach may generate some economies of scale to support local development in more areas (e.g., helicopters) too.
> 
> If we really want to take things up a notch, then we could look at setting up a Special Operations Force Command. Get each service arm (e.g., PA, PAF, PN) to contribute, but set up a common infrastructure and capacity point to support their respective SSG/SSW operations. So shared helicopters, ISR aircraft, vehicles, 'boats', and so on. So whenever there's an SSG ops, they can call upon SOFCOM to provide equipment support. This is where you can add turboprop attack planes, gunship-type transports, etc.


Let me ask you one thing. In PAs case can this just be achieved through restructuring and some creativity or would it also require a good deal of funds?

Also I feel the marines are too defensive in nature. If armed correctly with amphibious expeditionary equipment and air assets. Marines could help us take swaths of enemy territory which we can use to negotiate in a supposed conflict.


iLION12345_1 said:


> Good to know sir.
> 
> I’ve been looking at the AKs in use by the army already and have found some sort of a pattern. Currently it seems two (?) types of AKs are still being inducted. The Chinese Type 56-II with the side folding stocks and Bakelite furniture, and then another AK with polymer furniture and either a fixed tactical stock or an under folder (I consider these the same because the only difference is the stock). The under folder looks very similar to the one that was shown at POF. Leads me to believe that these two are being made at POF under AK-103 designation, even though they lack certain features of the 103 (namely the muzzle break and the polymer mag. The stock is also Different, dare I say better, than the actual 103. I also assume these are from POF because I cannot find who else makes these or where we imported them from. If so POF is making a rather modern AK.
> 
> View attachment 749901
> View attachment 749902
> View attachment 749903
> View attachment 749904
> View attachment 749905
> View attachment 749906
> View attachment 749907
> View attachment 749908
> View attachment 749909
> View attachment 749910
> View attachment 749911
> View attachment 749912
> View attachment 749900
> 
> 
> Here are plenty of pictures of all three, pretty easy to tell the difference.
> There are also a few actual 103s in service with both the SSG and regulars. We might see just these two being fully inducted or more actual 103s joining their ranks later.
> View attachment 749915
> View attachment 749917


I believe those are custom Type 56s

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## iLION12345_1

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Let me ask you one thing. In PAs case can this just be achieved through restructuring and some creativity or would it also require a good deal of funds?
> 
> Also I feel the marines are too defensive in nature. If armed correctly with amphibious expeditionary equipment and air assets. Marines could help us take swaths of enemy territory which we can use to negotiate in a supposed conflict.
> 
> I believe those are custom Type 56s



I can’t say much for the PAs restructuring, but I definitely like the idea for the creation of a Joint special forces command. Any restructuring always takes some funds, but in this case, I don’t think it would take too many, because we’re not talking about procurements, just about some movement and mission planning. 
As for the Kind of restructuring Bilal mentioned earlier, with the FC and such being integrated into the national guard under army, yes that would simplify things, but I feel like that would take a lot of changes from the ground up to accomplish, something which with our attitude about things would take a lot of time and hamper the performance of the forces while it’s still underway. especially since the civilian government would have to be involved here.


But who is customizing these Type 56 in such large numbers? they are certainly not being delivered in this form. Not to mention excluding the stock these are identical to the AKs presented by POF (as those had underfolder stocks). So these could easily be POF origin.

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## PanzerKiel

mingle said:


> I also want one more corp in Balochistan based Gawader or central part not Quetta


Jo hukum.... Hukum ki tameel ho gi...


iLION12345_1 said:


> Good to know sir.
> 
> I’ve been looking at the AKs in use by the army already and have found some sort of a pattern. Currently it seems two (?) types of AKs are still being inducted. The Chinese Type 56-II with the side folding stocks and Bakelite furniture, and then another AK with polymer furniture and either a fixed tactical stock or an under folder (I consider these the same because the only difference is the stock). The under folder looks very similar to the one that was shown at POF. Leads me to believe that these two are being made at POF under AK-103 designation, even though they lack certain features of the 103 (namely the muzzle break and the polymer mag. The stock is also Different, dare I say better, than the actual 103. I also assume these are from POF because I cannot find who else makes these or where we imported them from. If so POF is making a rather modern AK.
> 
> View attachment 749901
> View attachment 749902
> View attachment 749903
> View attachment 749904
> View attachment 749905
> View attachment 749906
> View attachment 749907
> View attachment 749908
> View attachment 749909
> View attachment 749910
> View attachment 749911
> View attachment 749912
> View attachment 749900
> 
> 
> Here are plenty of pictures of all three, pretty easy to tell the difference.
> There are also a few actual 103s in service with both the SSG and regulars. We might see just these two being fully inducted or more actual 103s joining their ranks later.
> View attachment 749915
> View attachment 749917


Most of these are individual or unit level modifications max.... Not official or army or even POF level.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Let me ask you one thing. In PAs case can this just be achieved through restructuring and some creativity or would it also require a good deal of funds?
> 
> Also I feel the marines are too defensive in nature. If armed correctly with amphibious expeditionary equipment and air assets. Marines could help us take swaths of enemy territory which we can use to negotiate in a supposed conflict.
> 
> I believe those are custom Type 56s


It would require funds. The upfront might not be that much, but in the long-run, you're looking at the cost of wages, livelihoods, maintenance, etc. So, you'd need a bigger defence budget. But if you're removing the FC and other MoI units, you can offset those costs a bit.

That said, the real value of a National Guard isn't just the simplicity of having it under the Army, but IMO, it's the added professionalism. The National Guard would have a complete officer and NCO cadre (drawn from existing training facilities) and ability to switch officers between the National Guard and Army.

The civilian gov't might feel a bit insecure, but the point here is that they should feel confident in controlling the MoD and GHQ. If they don't, then we have deeper issues that need resolving. To be fair to GHQ, I can see why they feel apprehensive given the quality of our politicians.

This whole set-up works when you have a political establishment that has the complete trust of the military establishment and vice-versa. However, building that trust is not a trivial effort.

Maybe we introduce a rule that everyone running for an elected office must have served in the armed forces for two years (in any capacity, be it CO, NCO, civilian, contractor, etc).

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## Zarvan

PanzerKiel said:


> Nopes, direct procurement.... We'll be seeing plenty of AK 103s in the hands of units under MoI in the very near future.


Sir AK 103 or its new version the AK 203.





I really hope Pakistan go for these. Also please if we are going then we should try to get TOT.

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## PanzerKiel

Zarvan said:


> Sir AK 103 or its new version the AK 203.
> View attachment 750049
> 
> 
> I really hope Pakistan go for these. Also please if we are going then we should try to get TOT.


TOT is not there at the moment.

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## mingle

PanzerKiel said:


> Jo hukum.... Hukum ki tameel ho gi...
> 
> Most of these are individual or unit level modifications max.... Not official or army or even POF level.


Thanks Sir I know it's hard and expensive to raise a Corp but my mean was area is big and there are pockets where these militants operate by increasing troop level with permanent development we will neutralize those pockets.


PanzerKiel said:


> TOT is not there at the moment.


Get one FNScar for our Hazrat Zarvan plz

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## spectregunship

If the AK103 direct procurement is true, its not a very encouraging news in my point of view. There is nothing that AK103 brings to the table that the POF SMG Chinese / T56 does not. 
Especially when the deal is direct procurement and does not involve any ToT / Offset for us.
I'm not sure if DP is involved in purchases for MoI tps but the decision makers are the ones in uniform. Could've asked for something better. BPJs, Armoured Cars, TIs or communication for that matter.

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## Raja Porus

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> To be fair to GHQ, I can see why they feel apprehensive given the quality of our politicians.


That'd be the most difficult thing in Pakistan.


Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Maybe we introduce a rule that everyone running for an elected office must have served in the armed forces for two years (in any capacity, be it CO, NCO, civilian, contractor, etc).


I respectfully disagree and also our people will not understand the true reason behind this rule and would blame army for tightening its grip on power.

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## Ahmet Pasha

iLION12345_1 said:


> I can’t say much for the PAs restructuring, but I definitely like the idea for the creation of a Joint special forces command. Any restructuring always takes some funds, but in this case, I don’t think it would take too many, because we’re not talking about procurements, just about some movement and mission planning.
> As for the Kind of restructuring Bilal mentioned earlier, with the FC and such being integrated into the national guard under army, yes that would simplify things, but I feel like that would take a lot of changes from the ground up to accomplish, something which with our attitude about things would take a lot of time and hamper the performance of the forces while it’s still underway. especially since the civilian government would have to be involved here.
> 
> 
> But who is customizing these Type 56 in such large numbers? they are certainly not being delivered in this form. Not to mention excluding the stock these are identical to the AKs presented by POF (as those had underfolder stocks). So these could easily be POF origin.


Yeah like @PanzerKiel said sometimes these are battalion/brigade level upgrades. That the unit commander gets for his unit.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The National Guard would have a complete officer and NCO cadre (drawn from existing training facilities) and ability to switch officers between the National Guard and Army.


Do they stay in their home province like in US or move around? 

How about two weekends a month and two weeks a year model? Probably not effective for Pakistan. Pakistan doesn't struggle to recruit people while US has to coax it's people by bonuses and free college etc.

As what you seem to suggest is more like Turkish/French Jandarma and the Jandarma/Gendarmerie Ozel Harekat Komutanlığı(Gendarmerie Special Operations Command) which works together with other forces(Army/AF/Navy/Police) in a SOCOM/JSOC model. 

Right??

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## Ahmet Pasha

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Maybe we introduce a rule that everyone running for an elected office must have served in the armed forces for two years (in any capacity, be it CO, NCO, civilian, contractor, etc).


That's a great suggestion but the cry baby politicians will lobby heavily against it and it will help Pakistan by discouraging the corrupt Feudal politicians.

We can also educate entire Pakistan and give valuable experience to say a poor village girl who never wore proper shoes to experience civil and city life if we take them at say 15/8 grade give them metric at a military academy and then FSc education with national service whether it be building roads/infrastructure or military duty. Cadet college model with better amenities, better education and system that instills patriotism.

If above sounds a bit harsh modify it/tone it down.

This will eliminate the class differences and the differences between uneducated mullah class and the highly educated but sellout liberal class. Will also help put people from different provinces together and eliminate provincial animosities(maybe stop Punjabis from being offloaded from busses and executed lmao 😆). Instead of wasting Billions of dollars in education departments that become animal sheds under waderas eventually.


spectregunship said:


> If the AK103 direct procurement is true, its not a very encouraging news in my point of view. There is nothing that AK103 brings to the table that the POF SMG Chinese / T56 does not.
> Especially when the deal is direct procurement and does not involve any ToT / Offset for us.
> I'm not sure if DP is involved in purchases for MoI tps but the decision makers are the ones in uniform. Could've asked for something better. BPJs, Armoured Cars, TIs or communication for that matter.


I agree in my view the Czech offered a much more comprehensive package in form of the Bren, it's modular design and related accessories. There was also the skorpion evo 2 that could've easily replaced the MP5.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Desert Fox 1 said:


> I respectfully disagree and also our people will not understand the true reason behind this rule and would blame army for tightening its grip on power.


Unfortunately in Pakistan you are damned if you take a bitter step to improve Pakistan long term. And damned if you stay stuck in the present quagmire.

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## Path-Finder

PanzerKiel said:


> Almost 10k AK-103s are about to come, some are already here..... Not for regular army for now...




FN SECAR?


Desert Fox 1 said:


> I respectfully disagree and also our people will not understand the true reason behind this rule and would blame army for tightening its grip on power.


these are matters of state security and the fact that the state showed weakness when it should have been very very harsh is the reason why bc dallay like hamid mir etc etc get so brazen.

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## spectregunship

Ahmet Pasha said:


> That's a great suggestion but the cry baby politicians will lobby heavily against it and it will help Pakistan by discouraging the corrupt Feudal politicians.
> 
> We can also educate entire Pakistan and give valuable experience to say a poor village girl who never wore proper shoes to experience civil and city life if we take them at say 15/8 grade give them metric at a military academy and then FSc education with national service whether it be building roads/infrastructure or military duty. Cadet college model with better amenities, better education and system that instills patriotism.
> 
> If above sounds a bit harsh modify it/tone it down.
> 
> This will eliminate the class differences and the differences between uneducated mullah class and the highly educated but sellout liberal class. Will also help put people from different provinces together and eliminate provincial animosities(maybe stop Punjabis from being offloaded from busses and executed lmao 😆). Instead of wasting Billions of dollars in education departments that become animal sheds under waderas eventually.
> 
> I agree in my view the Czech offered a much more comprehensive package in form of the Bren, it's modular design and related accessories. There was also the skorpion evo 2 that could've easily replaced the MP5.



I agree. Cz BREN 2 BR could have been an amazing replacement and should've served for years to come. It did perform nice as well. Had the opportunity once to hold it (though not shoot). The Cz were all in with some MoU signing as well (whatever happened to that MoU).

about Evo 2 : I would never carry a 9mm to any fight. Ever! But at the same time Cz Bren 2 comes in 7.62 x 39 version. A perfect replacement for the POF T56 we have in use and complete replacement of MP5 with it. 

But alas, if only wishes were horses.

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## Ahmet Pasha

spectregunship said:


> I agree. Cz BREN 2 BR could have been an amazing replacement and should've served for years to come. It did perform nice as well. Had the opportunity once to hold it (though not shoot). The Cz were all in with some MoU signing as well (whatever happened to that MoU).
> 
> about Evo 2 : I would never carry a 9mm to any fight. Ever! But at the same time Cz Bren 2 comes in 7.62 x 39 version. A perfect replacement for the POF T56 we have in use and complete replacement of MP5 with it.
> 
> But alas, if only wishes were horses.


I think Bajwa messed it all up. He didn't focus as much on the rifle replacement program and it might have allowed the kickback seeking uncles at POF to step up. We also would've made money by participating in CZ's assembly infrastructure in future Bren deals. Bren also has a 762x51 battle rifle version as well. 

Although some US users of early Bren 2 models complained it is a bit plasticky and makes a toy like sound when shaken. 

I think Bajwa and POF uncles screwed things up just to try and remain relevant.


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## spectregunship

Ahmet Pasha said:


> I think Bajwa messed it all up. He didn't focus as much on the rifle replacement program and it might have allowed the kickback seeking uncles at POF to step up. We also would've made money by participating in CZ's assembly infrastructure in future Bren deals. Bren also has a 762x51 battle rifle version as well.
> 
> Although some US users of early Bren 2 models complained it is a bit plasticky and makes a toy like sound when shaken.
> 
> I think Bajwa and POF uncles screwed things up just to try and remain relevant.



You are absolutely right. It was all about priorities and force development probably was not one and still isnt. 
I mentioned CZ Bren 2 BR that is actually 7.62 x 51. Looked and felt amazing. Beauty. 

I remember CZ actually launched a promo video for it too during the days when they were in trials with us too. I loved that video in fact. Let me try to find it too.
Found it. its from 2018.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Desert Fox 1 said:


> That'd be the most difficult thing in Pakistan.
> 
> I respectfully disagree and also our people will not understand the true reason behind this rule and would blame army for tightening its grip on power.


Just accuse of those people of 9G warfare. Problem solved.

The way our people think...all you need to do is totally misconstrue what the opposing side is saying. Basically, lies work better than the truth, so just play that game. I'd just pay some uncle in the media to say, "I heard 30 years ago that Britain was against national guard, and that Malala is trying to weaken this great initiative."

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## Zarvan

@PanzerKiel Sir what about G3 replacement. Can we forget it for good or there are still chances of some Rifle being adopted to replace G3.

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## Khanate

spectregunship said:


> You are absolutely right. It was all about priorities and force development probably was not one and still isnt.
> I mentioned CZ Bren 2 BR that is actually 7.62 x 51. Looked and felt amazing. Beauty.
> 
> I remember CZ actually launched a promo video for it too during the days when they were in trials with us too. I loved that video in fact. Let me try to find it too.
> Found it. its from 2018.





The recoil on the Bren is insane.





Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I don't think the Army would allow another major army to form out of the Ministry of Interior.
> 
> The correct approach would be to re-organize FC, Rangers, etc, into a 'National Guard' and then place said force under the control of Army GHQ. In turn, Army GHQ gives the National Guard one mandate: manage the internal security affairs of Pakistan. The advantage of this approach is that the National Guard won't be seen as a threat to the Army, but at the same time, could get its own attack helicopters, transport helicopters, etc.
> 
> BTW, this wouldn't be unprecedented in Pakistan. The PN already runs the Maritime Security Agency.





This has bothered me for years. I don't see any real benefit to the level of fragmentation we see in our regional paramilitary forces. Not only should paramilitaries merge under a central entity, say National Guard, but it makes sense to give them the role of disaster relief or any internal security issue. And having a central organisation under GHQ would bring vast improvements to their capabilities. But knowing how things work in Pakistan, it would take a calamity for us to even think of this otherwise sensible reorganisation.

P.S. This picture is forever etched in my mind. You cannot thank Lt Gen Tariq Khan (R) enough for rescuing FC.











spectregunship said:


> If the AK103 direct procurement is true, its not a very encouraging news in my point of view. There is nothing that AK103 brings to the table that the POF SMG Chinese / T56 does not.
> Especially when the deal is direct procurement and does not involve any ToT / Offset for us.
> I'm not sure if DP is involved in purchases for MoI tps but the decision makers are the ones in uniform. Could've asked for something better. BPJs, Armoured Cars, TIs or communication for that matter.




We are romancing the Russians hence the expense.

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## spectregunship

Zarvan said:


> @PanzerKiel Sir what about G3 replacement. Can we forget it for good or there are still chances of some Rifle being adopted to replace G3.


 
Its dead. Nothing is going to come or replace it.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Khanate said:


> The recoil on the Bren is insane.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This has bothered me for years. I don't see any real benefit to the level of fragmentation we see in our regional paramilitary forces. Not only should paramilitaries merge under a central entity, say National Guard, but it makes sense to give them the role of disaster relief or any internal security issue. And having a central organisation under GHQ would bring vast improvements to their capabilities. But knowing how things work in Pakistan, it would take a calamity for us to even think of this otherwise sensible reorganisation.
> 
> P.S. This picture is forever etched in my mind. You cannot thank Lt Gen Tariq Khan (R) enough for rescuing FC.
> 
> View attachment 750133
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We are romancing the Russians hence the expense.


Yep. The concept of "levies" is antiquated.

Today, 'internal security' is a beast with its own distinct challenges, so it needs specific aptitudes and -- not least -- types of people in charge. You have to deal with local sensitivities, low-intensity warfare, and a host of other issues that you shouldn't burden the regular Army with (especially over the long-run).

As I see it, the job of the Pakistan Army is to defeat the army of an enemy country. It needs to be tuned to 'go for the kill' as swiftly as possible, so its training, weapons, and deployments should reflect that goal.

The job of a potential 'National Guard' is to protect the integrity of our country against natural disasters, or asymmetrical threats, or even popular unrest. This is the force that has the capacity for COIN, intelligence, emergency policing, disaster relief, humanitarian assistance, field hospitals, etc.

Finally, placing a National Guard under GHQ helps the Army standardize equipment (e.g., USAF and ANG). 

So, if they order 60 attack helicopters, they can add another 15 for the National Guard. It would not be an opportunity cost because in a state v. state war, the National Guard will operate under the Army -- so it'd be 75 attack helicopters in war.

Likewise for MRAPs. Yes, the MRAPs have a special use-case in COIN, but in a regular war, they can revert to a 4x4 APC. So again, if they order 1,000 MRAPs, they can make sure the design is suitable for use in COIN/CT as well as an APC.

It can work the other way around too. The National Guard may require a new assault rifle with sights, and given that the order is large (e.g., 100,000), GHQ can align it to a future rifle need. GHQ may not equip the regular Army with the new rifles right away, but it can prepare for that by front-loading the investment for the Guard.

Ironically, the presence of a National Guard might even help us get foreign financial support. With a non-India focus from the onset, the US might love the idea and open all sorts of aid (e.g., subsidize MRAPs, rifles, etc). If Congress inquires about the aid, the DoD or Dept of State will say, "this aid goes to the Pakistani National Guard, they have a single mandate, to fight terrorism."

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## Ahmet Pasha

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Ironically, the presence of a National Guard might even help us get foreign financial support. With a non-India focus from the onset, the US might love the idea and open all sorts of aid (e.g., subsidize MRAPs, rifles, etc). If Congress inquires about the aid, the DoD or Dept of State will say, "this aid goes to the Pakistani National Guard, they have a single mandate, to fight terrorism."


That rationale could have worked in '16-17 but now the geo politics vis a vis China-Pak are very different from an American perspective. There is very little chance of anything American to be released to us.

A small bit of hope exists wrt to the AH1Zs and T129 engines. That is only if our Defence and MoFA departments can extract a quid pro quo from the US exit from Afghanistan for helping them leave safely. 

Though I don't think Pak military is in the mood to suck up to American tantrums. Future for our defense industry should be JVs with Ukraine, China, South Korea, Japan, Brazil, South Africa, Turkey and homegrown solutions. America and Europe might sell us something but will throw thousands of tantrums and make us suffer for it first.

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## Zarvan

Khanate said:


> The recoil on the Bren is insane.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This has bothered me for years. I don't see any real benefit to the level of fragmentation we see in our regional paramilitary forces. Not only should paramilitaries merge under a central entity, say National Guard, but it makes sense to give them the role of disaster relief or any internal security issue. And having a central organisation under GHQ would bring vast improvements to their capabilities. But knowing how things work in Pakistan, it would take a calamity for us to even think of this otherwise sensible reorganisation.
> 
> P.S. This picture is forever etched in my mind. You cannot thank Lt Gen Tariq Khan (R) enough for rescuing FC.
> 
> View attachment 750133
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We are romancing the Russians hence the expense.


I agree with you on merging our Para Military Forces specially FC KPK and Baluchistan and Rangers of Punjab and Sindh and Mujahid Force and Gilgit Scouts in one force called National Guards.


Ahmet Pasha said:


> That rationale could have worked in '16-17 but now the geo politics vis a vis China-Pak are very different from an American perspective. There is very little chance of anything American to be released to us.
> 
> A small bit of hope exists wrt to the AH1Zs and T129 engines. That is only if our Defence and MoFA departments can extract a quid pro quo from the US exit from Afghanistan for helping them leave safely.
> 
> Though I don't think Pak military is in the mood to suck up to American tantrums. Future for our defense industry should be JVs with Ukraine, China, South Korea, Japan, Brazil, South Africa, Turkey and homegrown solutions. America and Europe might sell us something but will throw thousands of tantrums and make us suffer for it first.


Yes but still we should merge our Para Military Forces into one entity. And yes JV with the countries you mentioned is the way forward. USA is biggest backstabber.

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## Reichmarshal

Wt are you ppl on about !

Fc n rangers etc are manned by PA personal from top most position to the junior most officer.
They report directly to GHQ and take orders from them.
MOI has a limited say in the grand scheme of things.

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## Dreamer.

Reichmarshal said:


> Wt are you ppl on about !


They are just daydreaming, idling away the time. Most appropriate I think, since that is what this thread was created for...No?


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## Zarvan

Khanate said:


> The recoil on the Bren is insane.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This has bothered me for years. I don't see any real benefit to the level of fragmentation we see in our regional paramilitary forces. Not only should paramilitaries merge under a central entity, say National Guard, but it makes sense to give them the role of disaster relief or any internal security issue. And having a central organisation under GHQ would bring vast improvements to their capabilities. But knowing how things work in Pakistan, it would take a calamity for us to even think of this otherwise sensible reorganisation.
> 
> P.S. This picture is forever etched in my mind. You cannot thank Lt Gen Tariq Khan (R) enough for rescuing FC.
> 
> View attachment 750133
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We are romancing the Russians hence the expense.


All I know is G 3 must go. We are suing literally a 60 year old technology. In next few years G3 would be 60 years old. In fact in in 1967 we started inducting G3. It's time we say good bye to this Rifle. You can't keep updating or modify the 60 year old design. It has reached its limit. I give a dam right now. Which rifle comes but G3 must go along with Type 56. That is now 70 year old Rifle with some upgrades but still 70 year old.

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## Zarvan

SCAR 17 in 6.5 mm Creedmoor. This calibre comfortably outperforms 7.62 mm beyond 500 metres. Some armies are asking if it could be a future military ammunition standard? Possibly, but there's a problem. 6.5 mm CM eats barrels: 2,000 rounds versus 10,000-15,000 rounds for 7.62 mm.

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## CaptainSoap42

Zarvan said:


> View attachment 755478
> 
> 
> SCAR 17 in 6.5 mm Creedmoor. This calibre comfortably outperforms 7.62 mm beyond 500 metres. Some armies are asking if it could be a future military ammunition standard? Possibly, but there's a problem. 6.5 mm CM eats barrels: 2,000 rounds versus 10,000-15,000 rounds for 7.62 mm.


The thing is that conventional guns are going to be a lot cheaper than guns in 6.8 SPC or 6.5 CM as they are going to be expensive plus their barrel life will be short. FN SCAR is already expensive and using 6.5 CM chambered FN SCARs in long run will bleed pockets of the owners.


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## Sifar zero

The Ak 103 we tested and the 103 that are coming for MOI troops.Do they have a pictanny rail.
@PanzerKiel @Zarvan


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## PanzerKiel

Sifar zero said:


> The Ak 103 we tested and the 103 that are coming for MOI troops.Do they have a pictanny rail.
> @PanzerKiel @Zarvan


What I've heard is that rails will be there. Otherwise MoI have enough bucks to install rails on abandoned railway tracks as well.

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## iLION12345_1

Zarvan said:


> View attachment 755478
> 
> 
> SCAR 17 in 6.5 mm Creedmoor. This calibre comfortably outperforms 7.62 mm beyond 500 metres. Some armies are asking if it could be a future military ammunition standard? Possibly, but there's a problem. 6.5 mm CM eats barrels: 2,000 rounds versus 10,000-15,000 rounds for 7.62 mm.


Please let the scar go…it’s such a poor weapon. All it will get you is cracks and failures for an Uber-expensive weapon with little utility. It’s specifically designed for SF use and not mass adoption anyways.

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## Sifar zero

PanzerKiel said:


> What I've heard is that rails will be there. Otherwise MoI have enough bucks to install rails on abandoned railway tracks as well.


How much time will they take to equip the troops?


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## Sine Nomine

Sifar zero said:


> The Ak 103 we tested and the 103 that are coming for MOI troops.Do they have a pictanny rail.
> @PanzerKiel @Zarvan


MoI Ak-103's handguard comes with 3 rails,two small one's on both sides for mounting laser or a light,a lower one for mounting foregrip.

Dust cover is hinged one and comes with a rail on top,which allows user to mount different kind of scopes.

Both front and back sight are adjustable for windage and elevation.

Stock is folding with adjustable cheek rest and pistol grip comes with a storage compartment.

Over all built is very solid,it's a type of weapon you can trust in all kinds of geography and weather.

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## Sifar zero

Sine Nomine said:


> MoI Ak-103's handguard comes with 3 rails,two small one's on both sides for mounting laser or a light,a lower one for mounting foregrip.
> 
> Dust cover is hinged one and comes with a rail on top,which allows user to mount different kind of scopes.
> 
> Both front and back sight are adjustable for windage and elevation.
> 
> Stock is folding with adjustable cheek rest and pistol grip comes with a storage compartment.
> 
> Over all built is very solid,it's a type of weapon you can trust in all kinds of geography and weather.


Have you seen them?


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## Sine Nomine

Sifar zero said:


> Have you seen them?


Yes i have seen and checked them.

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## Sine Nomine

Sifar zero said:


> How much time will they take to equip the troops?


Some LEA right now is being equipped with those rifles as we speak.I wish FC also gets them.


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## CaptainSoap42

PanzerKiel said:


> What I've heard is that rails will be there. Otherwise MoI have enough bucks to install rails on abandoned railway tracks as well.


Seems like Indian and Pakistani Army standard issue rifle‘s gonna be the same then, good for interoperability between the two armies 👍🏻.

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## Vapnope

@Sine Nomine do you know the cost per rifle for ak 103 which are being bought?


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## CaptainSoap42

Vapnope said:


> @Sine Nomine do you know the cost per rifle for ak 103 which are being bought?


They are selling it to us for more than 1000 dollars each, would be same for Pakistan as well.


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## Path-Finder

iLION12345_1 said:


> Please let the scar go…it’s such a poor weapon. All it will get you is cracks and failures for an Uber-expensive weapon with little utility. It’s specifically designed for SF use and not mass adoption anyways.


you are preaching to the choir. The Hazrat is madly deeply infatuated with fn secar.


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## Vapnope

CaptainSoap42 said:


> They are selling it to us for more than 1000 dollars each, would be same for Pakistan as well.


Aren't you guys getting Ak 203?


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## CaptainSoap42

Vapnope said:


> Aren't you guys getting Ak 203?


It's the AK103M
Ak103 is just AK74 m rechambered for the 7.62
Ak203 (((has))) picatinny rails on top cover upper and lower Handguard, and a modern stock as compared to Ak103
🙂


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## Vapnope

CaptainSoap42 said:


> It's the AK103M
> Ak103 is just AK74 m rechambered for the 7.62
> Ak203 (((has))) picatinny rails on top cover upper and lower Handguard, and a modern stock as compared to Ak103
> 🙂


Yes i know the difference. Wanted to say that AK 203 must be costlier than Ak 103.


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## CaptainSoap42

Vapnope said:


> Aren't you guys getting Ak 203?


The so called AK-203 is just an AK-103 with a rail on lower handguard and uses the pistol grip of AK-203, pretty much what you are buying.

The one Colonel Danvir sir is holding is what we are getting.

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## CaptainSoap42

Vapnope said:


> Yes i know the difference. Wanted to say that AK 203 must be costlier than Ak 103.


It has a new stock, and rails on all 4 sides 3, 6, 9 and 12 o clock which is not present in AK-103, but as per Panzerkeil Pak armyis getting AK-103 with rails, so in short you are being fed AK-103 while you’re getting AK-103M and we are being fed AK-203 while we’re getting AK-103M.

So we are getting the same rifles with different chooran sold to both countries. AK-203 was never supposed to win the contract, it was purchased to please the Russians, we are paying them 1000 dollars for each rifle, paying them royalty on each gun made, paying them for ToT of a design we already have and we’re not getting metallurgy ToT, buying AK-103M when OFB already makes AK clone called TAR and Army can’t give excuse of OFB’s low quality in their TAR as even the AK-103M will be made by OFB. Bulgarian AKs would have still been far far more better, I’ve not just seen their reviews on YouTube, I’ve actually heard great things about Bulgarian AKs like it’s high quality trigger, accuracy and high quality from CRPF guys who have used it for years. In my Opinion Indian Army should scrap this, as it will be probably as the deal is hung for years and and now OFB’s Communist unions are going for an indefinite strike (blessing in disguise) but it’s cent percent sure that AK-103M will be produced at any cost as Modi has already made a hype of AK-203 as the best assault rifle on Earth (yes he said that and I’m not surprised, politicians are known for exaggerating and sometimes lying to score brownie points and votes) and it is going to be made in Politically important Amethi district which is where Leader of Opposition Rahul Gandhi fights the election and fought in 2019 as well and lost the general election and this factory will pour down jobs making sure he does not win in that seat again.


There are too many strings attached to this corruption fiasco, atleast Pak army selected AK-103 after testing, the AK-203 did not even went for testing and was selected as it is (just to please Russia).

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## Basel

PanzerKiel said:


> Nopes, direct procurement.... We'll be seeing plenty of AK 103s in the hands of units under MoI in the very near future.



Means Rangers, FC and other PM units will get Ak-103s??


CaptainSoap42 said:


> The so called AK-203 is just an AK-103 with a rail on lower handguard and uses the pistol grip of AK-203, pretty much what you are buying.
> 
> The one Colonel Danvir sir is holding is what we are getting.
> View attachment 755815
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 755816



What is performance difference between both of them??

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## Waiting

CaptainSoap42 said:


> The so called AK-203 is just an AK-103 with a rail on lower handguard and uses the pistol grip of AK-203, pretty much what you are buying.
> 
> The one Colonel Danvir sir is holding is what we are getting.
> View attachment 755815
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 755816


Conversion kit is available at Karkhano for 1500+1000 rupees only

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## Zarvan

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1409776016034258945

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## Sifar zero

Does the army use G3P4 the one with a different stock?
@Zarvan @PanzerKiel

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## Raja Porus

Sifar zero said:


> Does the army use G3P4 the one with a different stock?
> @Zarvan @PanzerKiel


I did see one more than a couple of years back in Rawalpindi but haven't seen another one after that.

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## Sifar zero

Desert Fox 1 said:


> I did see one more than a couple of years back in Rawalpindi but haven't seen another one after that.
> 
> View attachment 758788


No bro I meant the simple one with no picatinny rail.

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## spectregunship

Sifar zero said:


> No bro I meant the simple one with no picatinny rail.



None with the standard units.

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## PanzerKiel

Desert Fox 1 said:


> I did see one more than a couple of years back in Rawalpindi but haven't seen another one after that.
> 
> View attachment 758788


Failed project.

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## PakFactor

PanzerKiel said:


> Failed project.



What was the main cause of this project failing?

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## PanzerKiel

PakFactor said:


> What was the main cause of this project failing?


Heavier weapon, no difference in recoil, unstable Centre of gravity.

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## Raja Porus

Than original?


PanzerKiel said:


> Heavier

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## Zarvan

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Than original?


Yes. G3 has reached its limits. Pakistan is doing a great disfavor to its soldiers by sticking to 60 year old design. We need a new Assault Rifle. There is a reason why pretty much every major power in the world has replaced their old guns. I mean in past 10 years around 25 major countries have gone for new assault rifles. We after doing all the process still failed to get it done. That would also piss rifle companies of and next time they may not even come for trials.

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## Sifar zero

Zarvan said:


> Yes. G3 has reached its limits. Pakistan is doing a great disfavor to its soldiers by sticking to 60 year old design. We need a new Assault Rifle. There is a reason why pretty much every major power in the world has replaced their old guns. I mean in past 10 years around 25 major countries have gone for new assault rifles. We after doing all the process still failed to get it done. That would also piss rifle companies of and next time they may not even come for trials.


We dont need two separate weapons like the SCAR and AK 103 what we need is intermediate cartridge like the 5.56.It will have lower weight and will be easier to handle.


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## Basel

Sifar zero said:


> We dont need two separate weapons like the SCAR and AK 103 what we need is intermediate cartridge like the 5.56.It will have lower weight and will be easier to handle.



The intermediate Carthage is 6.8mm which US may adopt it's between 7.62 & 5.xx.
Even US have realize that 5.xx caliber dont have power to kill like 7.62 so they want 6.8 which have properties of both calibers, not too heavy & not less powerfull.

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## spectregunship

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Than original?



and notice the muzzle brake in place of the standard flash hider.... it was a killer on the firer's ear....

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## khanasifm

Zarvan said:


> Yes. G3 has reached its limits. Pakistan is doing a great disfavor to its soldiers by sticking to 60 year old design. We need a new Assault Rifle. There is a reason why pretty much every major power in the world has replaced their old guns. I mean in past 10 years around 25 major countries have gone for new assault rifles. We after doing all the process still failed to get it done. That would also piss rifle companies of and next time they may not even come for trials.



Country close to defaulting a few year ago cannot afford such luxury 

End of story


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## Zarvan

khanasifm said:


> Country close to defaulting a few year ago cannot afford such luxury
> 
> End of story


That country can order 8 Submarines, four Frigates, Four Corvettes, get VT 4 Tanks. Produce AL KHALID 1 and Missile Boats. Get more AWACS. Plus work on 5th Generation project but only thing they can't buy is new Assault Rifles. Some great logic here.

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## PanzerKiel

Zarvan said:


> That country can order 8 Submarines, four Frigates, Four Corvettes, get VT 4 Tanks. Produce AL KHALID 1 and Missile Boats. Get more AWACS. Plus work on 5th Generation project but only thing they can't buy is new Assault Rifles. Some great logic here.


Dear, I tend to disagree with you.... If we are or were that much well off in terms of money..... Then we should have served something heavy.... Halwa poori, channay, firni, BBQ, custard...... instead of a simple yet fantastic tea.

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## Malik Alashter

Zarvan said:


> That country can order 8 Submarines, four Frigates, Four Corvettes, get VT 4 Tanks. Produce AL KHALID 1 and Missile Boats. Get more AWACS. Plus work on 5th Generation project but only thing they can't buy is new Assault Rifles. Some great logic here.


You want a new rifle that comes with either new ammo or you have that ammo.
if its new ammo then that means making new one which is not cheap 
if its what you have then why new platform that may not even as good as your old rusty G3 plus you already making the G3 and its a good rifle even the look isnt bad

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## Zarvan

Malik Alashter said:


> You want a new rifle that comes with either new ammo or you have that ammo.
> if its new ammo then that means making new one which is not cheap
> if its what you have then why new platform that may not even as good as your old rusty G3 plus you already making the G3 and its a good rifle even the look isnt bad


G3 size is a huge problem. Plus its weight plus its jamming issues. Plus its rate of fire. Only thing it's great is accuracy.

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## khanasifm

Zarvan said:


> That country can order 8 Submarines, four Frigates, Four Corvettes, get VT 4 Tanks. Produce AL KHALID 1 and Missile Boats. Get more AWACS. Plus work on 5th Generation project but only thing they can't buy is new Assault Rifles. Some great logic here.



Exactly plus all Chinese equipment is based on loans

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## Zarvan

khanasifm said:


> Exactly plus all Chinese equipment is based on loans


No they are not based no loans. Secondly we are also buying several things from other countries also. So no we can buy assault rifles also.

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## Path-Finder

PanzerKiel said:


> Dear, I tend to disagree with you.... If we are or were that much well off in terms of money..... Then we should have served something heavy.... Halwa poori, channay, firni, BBQ, custard...... instead of a simple yet fantastic tea.


our Hazrat has been trying hands at nihari too!!!


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1411553726205149185

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## Metal 0-1

Desert Fox 1 said:


> I did see one more than a couple of years back in Rawalpindi but haven't seen another one after that.
> 
> View attachment 758788


Couple of them with sanded picatinny rails can be seen in Okara Cantt.

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## Genghis khan1

CaptainSoap42 said:


> They are selling it to us for more than 1000 dollars each, would be same for Pakistan as well.


Can’t be $1000. Should be few hundred per piece for large govt purchase.


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## bananarepublic

Questions, if local G-3 "modernization" failed. Then why haven't we tried to emulate (copy) foreign upgrades to the G-3s? 





Picture is from the Norwegians. 
Even the most well established weapon companies have straight up copied. Example the Galil which is a direct copy of the Valmet. 
Or even this is too much to ask from the uncles running our industries

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Wonder what's going on with the PK18 development

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## Scorpiooo

bananarepublic said:


> Questions, if local G-3 "modernization" failed. Then why haven't we tried to emulate (copy) foreign upgrades to the G-3s?
> View attachment 760248
> 
> Picture is from the Norwegians.
> Even the most well established weapon companies have straight up copied. Example the Galil which is a direct copy of the Valmet.
> Or even this is too much to ask from the uncles running our industries


Do uncle of POF cares for anything except there pockets


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## Basel

Pakistan should look into this approach.

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## Raja Porus

Lol,he couldn't handle the recoil and almost fell over

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1414943552036085773

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## Malik Alashter

Zarvan said:


> G3 size is a huge problem. Plus its weight plus its jamming issues. Plus its rate of fire. Only thing it's great is accuracy.


you can make your own within few months if you have the motive for better platform except your lot think it has to be indias way since there's a big commission to someones pocket its corruption that killing us third world nations just it happened in Iraq yesterday


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## Zarvan



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## HostileInsurgent

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Lol,he couldn't handle the recoil and almost fell over
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1414943552036085773


That’s actually LMG round on automatic fire, the Ammo purchased from SiG got finished in a Year and now Army is using the LMG round for them. Which has more recoil but more kinetic energy.


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## iLION12345_1

HostileInsurgent said:


> That’s actually LMG round on automatic fire, the Ammo purchased from SiG got finished in a Year and now Army is using the LMG round for them. Which has more recoil but more kinetic energy.


7.62x51 NATO used in rifles, sniper rifles, machine guns alike, it’s not a dedicated LMG round. G3 uses it as well. He just had rather poor recoil control for the rather powerful round.

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## HostileInsurgent

iLION12345_1 said:


> 7.62x51 NATO used in rifles, sniper rifles, machine guns alike, it’s not a dedicated LMG round. G3 uses it as well. He just had rather poor recoil control for the rather powerful round.


Well it was fired on auto and if you would shoot it in auto for the first time, the recoil will come as a surprise. And the LMG round the OFB makes is different from the one made by SiG.


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## Nomad40

HostileInsurgent said:


> That’s actually LMG round on automatic fire, the Ammo purchased from SiG got finished in a Year and now Army is using the LMG round for them. Which has more recoil but more kinetic energy.


what are you saying, there is no specific differentiation of a LMG 7.62x51, Bolt Rifle or Battle Rifle. Grains and charge are always same for LMG and Battle Rifle ( 147 grain FMJ M80 ball) and Bolt guns mostly use (175 grain M118 Long)....there is a difference but not as drastic!

India has a boat load of 7.62x51 and makes its own ammo....as a matter of fact even the poorest and the most ill-equipped nation make their own ammo, buying ammo from sig is BS sig can barely keep its civilian market afloat let alone military's.


HostileInsurgent said:


> Well it was fired on auto and if you would shoot it in auto for the first time, the recoil will come as a surprise. And the LMG round the OFB makes is different from the one made by SiG.


Recoil is not that bad for a bigger guy...muzzle brakes does the trick the sig above appears to have no muzzle brake and the shooter appears to be of a smaller build. Why on earth would India go for 7.62 x 51 is out of my mind as the general build of its army is below world average height.

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## HostileInsurgent

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> what are you saying, there is no specific differentiation of a LMG 7.62x51, Bolt Rifle or Battle Rifle. Grains and charge are always same for LMG and Battle Rifle ( 147 grain FMJ M80 ball) and Bolt guns mostly use (175 grain M118 Long)....there is a difference but not as drastic!
> 
> India has a boat load of 7.62x51 and makes its own ammo....as a matter of fact even the poorest and the most ill-equipped nation make their own ammo, buying ammo from sig is BS sig can barely keep its civilian market afloat let alone military's.
> 
> Recoil is not that bad for a bigger guy...muzzle brakes does the trick the sig above appears to have no muzzle brake and the shooter appears to be of a smaller build. Why on earth would India go for 7.62 x 51 is out of my mind as the general build of its army is below world average height.


It’s not about build but about shoot to kill capability, they are more habituated to the intermediate cratridge of Assault Rifles.


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## Scorpiooo

Pak Army Rifle Replacement News


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## Reichsmarschall

Scorpiooo said:


> Pak Army Rifle Replacement News


Please post brief summary if possible


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## Scorpiooo

Reichsmarschall said:


> Please post brief summary if possible


10k apx AK103 order for FC and Rangers on request of interior ministry , will be imported as it is. ToT for aimed forces negotiations still continue.. etc

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## PanzerKiel

PanzerKiel said:


> Almost 10k AK-103s are about to come, some are already here..... Not for regular army for now...


@Scorpiooo @Reichsmarschall

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## Zarvan

Scorpiooo said:


> 10k apx AK103 order for FC and Rangers on request of interior ministry , will be imported as it is. ToT for aimed forces negotiations still continue.. etc


@PanzerKiel told us about 10000 Rifles arriving on this very same thread but I didn't read anything about TOT. Still I am hoping some miracle happens and Pakistan goes for two Rifle series with TOT.


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## RealNapster

CaptainSoap42 said:


> Seems like Indian and Pakistani Army standard issue rifle‘s gonna be the same then, good for interoperability between the two armies 👍🏻.



AK's are meant for paramilitary (not Pak army) which is based and stationed in KPK and Baluchistan. Both these provinces have no border with India.

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## PakFactor

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I don't think the Army would allow another major army to form out of the Ministry of Interior.
> 
> The correct approach would be to re-organize FC, Rangers, etc, into a 'National Guard' and then place said force under the control of Army GHQ. In turn, Army GHQ gives the National Guard one mandate: manage the internal security affairs of Pakistan. The advantage of this approach is that the National Guard won't be seen as a threat to the Army, but at the same time, could get its own attack helicopters, transport helicopters, etc.
> 
> BTW, this wouldn't be unprecedented in Pakistan. The PN already runs the Maritime Security Agency.





Ahmet Pasha said:


> Thus this national guard might also have scale to buy equipment on a greater level and have more commonality of equipment. Instead of FC and Rangers operating different hardware.



@Bilal Khan (Quwa) it would almost be the same model as the US National Guard, with US Military Officers commanding, except being under the Governor's control under your proposal the military will act as the governor.

This approach is very sound and good, it'll relieve the military itself to focus on other things along the IB and have FC focus on the less hostile border.

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## The Terminator

Don't know how the members of a 3rd world country here hope to have FN-SCAR as their military's standard issue rifle whereas the US military decided against it, as it would be cost prohibitive for them and offers a little more improvement on what they already have. So they ditched that idea and instead bought a few of the Scars for their SF guys. It costed them around 3 times more than the price Tag of Colt M4 already in their service.

Pakistan would get an expensive guccied up 7.62x51 rifle to replace current 7.62x51. it would take decades to replace them all and maybe by then we would realize that 7.62x51 isn't relevant anymore and start dumping the newly acquired costly rifle with another costlier rifle!

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## The Terminator

Why don't we keep improving upon the G3 rifle, it's ergonomics and maybe introduce a M4 like recoil buffer embedded into the buttstock. A few variations here and there so it could get another 10 or 15 years of life in the future. And truly focus on what the world is heading towards, like 6.8mm Creedmoor sort of thing as our next standard issue battle rifle. 

The rapid proliferation of advanced body armor around the globe demands a better round and compatible rifle which is future proof and could serve well for another 3 to 5 decades. Producing millions of rifles for the military and maintaining them isn't a child's play.


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## The Terminator

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I don't think the Army would allow another major army to form out of the Ministry of Interior.
> 
> The correct approach would be to re-organize FC, Rangers, etc, into a 'National Guard' and then place said force under the control of Army GHQ. In turn, Army GHQ gives the National Guard one mandate: manage the internal security affairs of Pakistan. The advantage of this approach is that the National Guard won't be seen as a threat to the Army, but at the same time, could get its own attack helicopters, transport helicopters, etc.
> 
> BTW, this wouldn't be unprecedented in Pakistan. The PN already runs the Maritime Security Agency.



Totally agreed. Let's have a deal, why don't have a 2 way transaction between the GHQ and Civilian Govt?

Make a National Guard and give their command to the GHQ officially, as paramilitary forces already practically follow the Army's command anyway. And in return let the Civilian Govt have its own Special Security force like the US Secret Service or Indian Special Security Group, which would be responsible for the protection of key Government personalities along with their families including Judges and Chief Justices too. And GHQ should also pledge to refrain from day to day tasks of the Civil Govt and focus solely on the protection of geographical boundaries of the country.

It would be mistakenly viewed as anti military comment but in reality it's for the greater good of our nation as a whole.

Why US, China and Corrupt elite of Pakistan head towards GHQ whenever they really badly wanna get something done ASAP or have a backdoor deal with the real power wielders of this country. It has to be stopped at sometime in near future as it's the matter of existence and security of the Pakistan.


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## The Terminator

As for the rifle indigenization program. Can't we hire a mixture of highly skilled, emerging talent, well experienced in design and metallurgy professionals from around the globe like retired H&K people etc. Provide them all the facilities and materials they need, and let them design and build a state of the art rifle here at our POF factory. I know ToT is almost impossible these days especially in the field of metallurgy and polymers.

Also preferably privitize all of our defense manufacturering companies except PAC Kamra and appoint proper professional management and scientisits there to run the show under Govt oversight ofcourse

I think PAC under the command of PAF is doing a decent job as compared to other government run defense industries. There is a lot of stagnation and lack of passion and innovation there in other industries.

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## Zarvan

The Terminator said:


> Why don't we keep improving upon the G3 rifle, it's ergonomics and maybe introduce a M4 like recoil buffer embedded into the buttstock. A few variations here and there so it could get another 10 or 15 years of life in the future. And truly focus on what the world is heading towards, like 6.8mm Creedmoor sort of thing as our next standard issue battle rifle.
> 
> The rapid proliferation of advanced body armor around the globe demands a better round and compatible rifle which is future proof and could serve well for another 3 to 5 decades. Producing millions of rifles for the military and maintaining them isn't a child's play.


G3 is 60 year old design and has serious limits. You think we haven't tried to improve G3. We have and every attempt has failed. G3 design has limitations. It was always too big of a Gun for a soldier. It has to go. It has several issues. Starting from jamming regularly to lower rate of fire to weight and size.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

The Terminator said:


> Totally agreed. Let's have a deal, why don't have a 2 way transaction between the GHQ and Civilian Govt?
> 
> Make a National Guard and give their command to the GHQ officially, as paramilitary forces already practically follow the Army's command anyway. And in return let the Civilian Govt have its own Special Security force like the US Secret Service or Indian Special Security Group, which would be responsible for the protection of key Government personalities along with their families including Judges and Chief Justices too. And GHQ should also pledge to refrain from day to day tasks of the Civil Govt and focus solely on the protection of geographical boundaries of the country.
> 
> It would be mistakenly viewed as anti military comment but in reality it's for the greater good of our nation as a whole.
> 
> Why US, China and Corrupt elite of Pakistan head towards GHQ whenever they really badly wanna get something done ASAP or have a backdoor deal with the real power wielders of this country. It has to be stopped at sometime in near future as it's the matter of existence and security of the Pakistan.


The truth is that the corrupt political elite and specific military leaders are colluding together to maintain the status-quo. It's really just that. There's no true opposition until another group of political and military elites rise up and demand real change. You need politicians who'll call out bad actors (like the PPP), and you need generals who'll stop other generals from assuming authority on foreign relations and other matters.

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## Thorough Pro

You know better, right?




Zarvan said:


> @PanzerKiel told us about 10000 Rifles arriving on this very same thread but I didn't read anything about TOT. *Still I am hoping some miracle happens* and Pakistan goes for two Rifle series with TOT.


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## Zarvan

Thorough Pro said:


> You know better, right?


What do you mean ?

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## The Terminator

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The truth is that the corrupt political elite and specific military leaders are colluding together to maintain the status-quo. It's really just that. There's no true opposition until another group of political and military elites rise up and demand real change. You need politicians who'll call out bad actors (like the PPP), and you need generals who'll stop other generals from assuming authority on foreign relations and other matters.


Do you really think it's gonna happen in our country?

When you call out bad actors in politics then the "jamhooriat" gets insecure and feels threatened. And when you even dare to talk about the misadventures of our military elite in politics and foreign affairs etc, and about the ongoing corruption within the military elite you are instantly tagged as traitor and a severe threat to "National Security".

The status quo hides behind "Jamhooriat" and "National Security". And any daring patriotic whistle-blower would instantly be tagged as traitor or agent of Israel, India, US or whatever not.


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## The Terminator

Zarvan said:


> G3 is 60 year old design and has serious limits. You think we haven't tried to improve G3. We have and every attempt has failed. G3 design has limitations. It was always too big of a Gun for a soldier. It has to go. It has several issues. Starting from jamming regularly to lower rate of fire to weight and size.


As per your comments our military is producing and utilizing G3 for 60 years. So why we shouldn't wait for another decade to closely observe the pattern which the global powers are shifting towards and after that decide upon the future standard issued rifle for our military. 

The battle between the bullet and body armor has got fierce in recent years. There is already an experimental lightweight soft body armor prototype in the market which is capable of stopping 50 bmg round. That's antimaterial. 50 cal round which cannot penetrate through a soft body armor light enough to be worn by a man! Can you imagine this technological leap! Yeah I know the impact and blunt force, kinetic energy of the round is enough to convert the internals of the body into jelly and incapacitating the soldier. 

So I fear by the time we accomplish the task of equipping our soldiers with whatever rifle from the list, it would already be an obsolete rifle and an obsolete round by then and a poor country having weak economy can't afford to keep changing the millions of service rifles for its armed forces at an interval of 10 to 12 years. Bulk of our air force still use 60,70 years old designed F7s and mirages, Soviet Era tanks, and similar condition with the navy too. 

Yes G3 still fires a bullet, 7.62x51 still packs a punch, capable enough to injure and kill modern enemy soldiers, terrorists but this round is certainly not future proof that's for sure.

We don't have a penny to spend on R&D so why not simply follow the tracks of our beloved America, or Russia, Europe and China. They have big $$$ to throw into R&D and they are the ones who shape the future of the combat and according to them the life span of existing 5.56 and 7.62 ammo is going to expire soon. 

*But by then the bullet fired from an old rusty G3 and a brand new expensive desert tanned beauty of SCAR-H would have the similar impact upon whoever is on the receiving end. 

The real question is would the rifles under consideration and rounds they are chambered in as of now, be relevant and as effective after 20-30 years from now or not?* 

That was the real theme of my previous comment too which you cleverly finesse through.


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## Zarvan

The Terminator said:


> As per your comments our military is producing and utilizing G3 for 60 years. So why we shouldn't wait for another decade to closely observe the pattern which the global powers are shifting towards and after that decide upon the future standard issued rifle for our military.
> 
> The battle between the bullet and body armor has got fierce in recent years. There is already an experimental lightweight soft body armor prototype in the market which is capable of stopping 50 bmg round. That's antimaterial. 50 cal round which cannot penetrate through a soft body armor light enough to be worn by a man! Can you imagine this technological leap! Yeah I know the impact and blunt force, kinetic energy of the round is enough to convert the internals of the body into jelly and incapacitating the soldier.
> 
> So I fear by the time we accomplish the task of equipping our soldiers with whatever rifle from the list, it would already be an obsolete rifle and an obsolete round by then and a poor country having weak economy can't afford to keep changing the millions of service rifles for its armed forces at an interval of 10 to 12 years. Bulk of our air force still use 60,70 years old designed F7s and mirages, Soviet Era tanks, and similar condition with the navy too.
> 
> Yes G3 still fires a bullet, 7.62x51 still packs a punch, capable enough to injure and kill modern enemy soldiers, terrorists but this round is certainly not future proof that's for sure.
> 
> We don't have a penny to spend on R&D so why not simply follow the tracks of our beloved America, or55 Russia, Europe and China. They have big $$$ to throw into R&D and they are the ones who shape the future of the combat and according to them the life span of existing 5.56 and 7.62 ammo is going to expire soon.
> 
> *But by then the bullet fired from an old rusty G3 and a brand new expensive desert tanned beauty of SCAR-H would have the similar impact upon whoever is on the receiving end.
> 
> The real question is would the rifles under consideration and rounds they are chambered in as of now, be relevant and as effective after 20-30 years from now or not?*
> 
> That was the real theme of my previous comment too which you cleverly finesse through.


Ammo is not the issue Rifle is. We are more the satisfied with the caliber. That is not the problem for us. The Rifle is. The Rifle is big and has jamming issues. Plus has lower rate of fire along with weight. It has to go. That is we were testing Rifles. That is why we need to replace our old Rifles. Trends by other countries have already been set. If you didn't notice in last 15 years around 30 major countries have changed their assault rifles. Hardly any of them has changed the caliber they were using but all of them have shifted to new Assault Rifle. 
Belgium FN SCAR
France HK 416 
India SIG 716 and AK 203
Italy ARX 100/160
China QBZ 19
Portugal HK 416
Australian Army EF 88 
New Zealand LMT MRL S 
Chile FN SCAR 
Germany most likely HK 416
Czech Republic CZ 805/ CZ 806 BREN
Serbia M19 Assault Rifle 
Qatar AK 12 and also ARX 100/160
Saudi Arabia locally producing AK 103 
Norway HK 416.
Poland FB MSBS GROT 
Finland RK 62M 
Indonesia also went for new local one. 
Taiwan XT 107
Thailand NARAC556 5.56mm
UAE Carmel 816


And I am pretty sure I am forgetting few countries. We on the other hand tested the Rifles and didn't went for any.

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## The Terminator

And where is US of


Zarvan said:


> Ammo is not the issue Rifle is. We are more the satisfied with the caliber. That is not the problem for us. The Rifle is. The Rifle is big and has jamming issues. Plus has lower rate of fire along with weight. It has to go. That is we were testing Rifles. That is why we need to replace our old Rifles. Trends by other countries have already been set. If you didn't notice in last 15 years around 30 major countries have changed their assault rifles. Hardly any of them has changed the caliber they were using but all of them have shifted to new Assault Rifle.
> Belgium FN SCAR
> France HK 416
> India SIG 716 and AK 203
> Italy ARX 100/160
> China QBZ 19
> Portugal HK 416
> Australian Army EF 88
> New Zealand LMT MRL S
> Chile FN SCAR
> Germany most likely HK 416
> Czech Republic CZ 805/ CZ 806 BREN
> Serbia M19 Assault Rifle
> Qatar AK 12 and also ARX 100/160
> Saudi Arabia locally producing AK 103
> Norway HK 416.
> Poland FB MSBS GROT
> Finland RK 62M
> Indonesia also went for new local one.
> Taiwan XT 107
> Thailand NARAC556 5.56mm
> UAE Carmel 816
> 
> 
> And I am pretty sure I am forgetting few countries. We on the other hand tested the Rifles and didn't went for any.



And where is US of America in this list! They are seriously considering next gen rounds and working prototypes have already been built and marketed by the competing companies. Russia and China is doing the same behind the closely knit curtains as usual. Everyone else would have to eventually follow their footsteps.

If you think Pakistan has the economy strong enough to induct and mass produce SCAR-H now and after one and a half decade later when next Gen rifles would flood the market, go for another shopping spree for upto date rifles and their associated calibers? I don't think so!

IMHO if we induct our standard issue rifle now, we wouldn't be able to induct a new standard issue rifle at least before 2060 or maybe beyond that. And in 2060s maybe the rounds we use now would have no more effect on the armored soldiers of that time than the Palestinian kids launching stones against the occupying forces today! That should be a huge concern for all of us.

And the list you have provided are those countries who produce rifles by themselves, or 1st world economies or oil rich spoiled nations, with an exception of a few. That truly makes sense for them. Now consider the current and foreseeable future of Pakistan and you would get a clearer picture then.


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## Zarvan

The Terminator said:


> And where is US of
> 
> 
> And where is US of America in this list! They are seriously considering next gen rounds and working prototypes have already been built and marketed by the competing companies. Russia and China is doing the same behind the closely knit curtains as usual. Everyone else would have to eventually follow their footsteps.
> 
> If you think Pakistan has the economy strong enough to induct and mass produce SCAR-H now and after one and a half decade later when next Gen rifles would flood the market, go for another shopping spree for upto date rifles and their associated calibers? I don't think so!
> 
> IMHO if we induct our standard issue rifle now, we wouldn't be able to induct a new standard issue rifle at least before 2060 or maybe beyond that. And in 2060s maybe the rounds we use now would have no more effect on the armored soldiers of that time than the Palestinian kids launching stones against the occupying forces today! That should be a huge concern for all of us.


USA is only looking country which is looking to change the caliber. They are going for 6.8 and most likely SIG MCX in that caliber.


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## Ahmet Pasha

500 pages hone wale hain. Rifle koi nai ai 😓😭


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## The Terminator

Zarvan said:


> USA is only looking country which is looking to change the caliber. They are going for 6.8 and most likely SIG MCX in that caliber.


G3's Rate of fire, recoil and size issues have already been addressed by complementary type 56 and even AK 103 in limited quantities. As far as reliability and jamming issues are concerned I don't think it would be worse than M4 rifle. G3 was never created for spray and pray purposes. It's accurate and has decent fire rate and effective range. MG3 complements it well when volume of fire is concerned.

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## Zarvan

The Terminator said:


> G3's Rate of fire, recoil and size issues have already been addressed by complementary type 56 and even AK 103 in limited quantities. As far as reliability and jamming issues are concerned I don't think it would be worse than M4 rifle. G3 was never created for spray and pray purposes. It's accurate and has decent fire rate and effective range. MG3 complements it well when volume of fire is concerned.


G3 is your main assault rifle and if your main assault rifle is creating dozen of issues. Then sorry that is serious trouble. And also Type 56 also have dozens of issues. From heating up very soon to others. That is why SSG jumped to M4 the moment they got their hands on those. MG 3 another boogey we are carrying which is way heavier. Difficult to carry plus again several issues similar to G3. If you have something that doesn't mean you should defend it blindly like our neighbor India does.


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## PanzerKiel

Zarvan said:


> G3 is your main assault rifle and if your main assault rifle is creating dozen of issues. Then sorry that is serious trouble. And also Type 56 also have dozens of issues. From heating up very soon to others. That is why SSG jumped to M4 the moment they got their hands on those. MG 3 another boogey we are carrying which is way heavier. Difficult to carry plus again several issues similar to G3. If you have something that doesn't mean you should defend it blindly like our neighbor India does.


There are several situations and environments where the SSG still favor Type 56 variants due to obvious reasons.

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## The Terminator

If you still wanna replace G3 completely then my preferred choice would be MPT-76 with complete ToT or CZ with similar condition of ToT.

If it doesn't go that way then, heck simply copy H&K 417 or MPT-76 locally in POF like PK-18 and source barrels from somewhere else for the time being. When Homegrown barrels get upto the mark slap them inside the rifles. That's how it wouldn't break the bank and local industry would flourish too. 

By that time we would be ready to transition into next gen calibre rifles

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## bananarepublic

PanzerKiel said:


> There are several situations and environments where the SSG still favor Type 56 variants due to obvious reasons.


I've heard that Type-56s, the newer ones have quality and reliability issues if not sourced correctly. 
Do we directly import them from Norinco? 
Police have been complaining about newer T-56 having problems. 
Flimsy top cover, furniture melts etc.

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## PanzerKiel

bananarepublic said:


> I've heard that Type-56s, the newer ones have quality and reliability issues if not sourced correctly.
> Do we directly import them from Norinco?
> Police have been complaining about newer T-56 having problems.
> Flimsy top cover, furniture melts etc.


Those unreliable ones are the Type 56 II variant..... All sorts of issues in them.....

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## The Terminator

Zarvan said:


> G3 is your main assault rifle and if your main assault rifle is creating dozen of issues. Then sorry that is serious trouble. And also Type 56 also have dozens of issues. From heating up very soon to others. That is why SSG jumped to M4 the moment they got their hands on those. MG 3 another boogey we are carrying which is way heavier. Difficult to carry plus again several issues similar to G3. If you have something that doesn't mean you should defend it blindly like our neighbor India does.


And what was the reason the mighty US SF guys jumped to AKs while fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan . Even the worst Chinese built AK would be more user friendly, rugged, good stopping power and reliable than shiny M-4. Then they immediately resurrected the 7.62 family again due to its superior stopping power.

The reason SSG went for M4 because it looks sexy, and extremely modular weapon. And you know those SF guys love the word "modular" than anything else. 

As far as defending your own product is concerned and you mentioned India in it too. Look where India stands today. They have indigenous competitive automotive industry which is capable of producing APCs, IFVs and other military vehicles on their own. They have built their own SAM system, now tested their Homegrown ATGM recently, their military helicopters manufacturing industry is thriving and getting expirt orders. 
And what we have achieved by this import everything mentality? We cannot even produce a motorcycle of our own. We can't manufacture a half decent engine or transmission. Our military relies heavily on imported engines, transmissions and vehicles of all sorts. And it would remain as it is unless we start to support our Homegrown products whole heartedly. As of now we all know that Pakistan's biggest project AZM would be just a customized copy of Chinese, Turkish or Russian origin. As we don't have the industrial base and capability to design a motorcycle or manufacture a car completely let alone complex, state of the art military technologies.


bananarepublic said:


> I've heard that Type-56s, the newer ones have quality and reliability issues if not sourced correctly.
> Do we directly import them from Norinco?
> Police have been complaining about newer T-56 having problems.
> Flimsy top cover, furniture melts etc.


Then revert its furniture back to the wooden one. Wood can not melt. And source its top covers from darra may be

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## Raja Porus

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> you need generals who'll stop other generals from assuming authority on foreign relations and other matters


When some did they were relieved of their commands and sent to other places(mostly concerning R&D or training etc) during the major reshuffle after the extension.


Zarvan said:


> MG 3 another boogey we are carrying which is way heavier. Difficult to carry plus again several issues similar to G3


I doubt, apart from length it doesn't have much issues. Its rate of fire is perfect for its role,plus it is fairly accurate as well. It has a beautiful sound and absolutely amazing to fire 😁
@PanzerKiel

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## bhola record

Eid agyi o meri SCAR nai ayi.

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## bananarepublic

PanzerKiel said:


> Those unreliable ones are the Type 56 II variant..... All sorts of issues in them.....


Thought so
Another query is regarding Type-81, do our jawans use them and if so, how does it perform. 
The short stroke system should give better accuracy and less inertia in recoil.


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## Raja Porus

bananarepublic said:


> Another query is regarding Type-81, do our jawans use them and if so, how does it perform.
> The short stroke system should give better accuracy and less inertia in recoil.


AFAIK there is no place for them in our infantry squads.

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## PanzerKiel

bananarepublic said:


> Thought so
> Another query is regarding Type-81, do our jawans use them and if so, how does it perform.
> The short stroke system should give better accuracy and less inertia in recoil.


Nopes, they are not being used in our regular units.

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## Rana4pak

500 pages and trails of almost all guns expect some still not decided what to doo.is ko be try ker lain shaid koi afaka ho jia


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## Raja Porus

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1418505784200105987

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## ali_raza

Desert Fox 1 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1418505784200105987


whts this monstrosity 
pure heart attack honestly

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## The Terminator

Desert Fox 1 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1418505784200105987


Capatalist gun to fire Communist rounds!
What a TrumPutin gun!

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## bhola record

The Terminator said:


> Capatalist gun to fire Communist rounds! Nice teamwork!

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## Path-Finder

Czech Republic and Pakistan to allow dual nationalities. hmmmn

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## khanasifm

Desert Fox 1 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1418505784200105987


If I am not wrong it’s just few thousand and not replacement like paa


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## Raja Porus

View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram
 @Metal 0-1

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## Sifar zero

Desert Fox 1 said:


> View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram
> @Metal 0-1


Are these M4's?
Do regulars use M4's now?

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## Raja Porus

Sifar zero said:


> Are these M4's?
> Do regulars use M4's now?


That's what I wanted to ask.


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## Zarvan

Desert Fox 1 said:


> View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram
> @Metal 0-1


@PanzerKiel Sir please explain


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## bhola record

Desert Fox 1 said:


> View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram
> @Metal 0-1


i have seen the officer on the right all over army fanpages,Who is this showoff?


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## Zarvan

bhola record said:


> i have seen the officer on the right all over army fanpages,Who is this showoff?


I have serious doubt he is even Army. His over all posture makes me question that whether he is from Army or not ?

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## monitor

The Terminator said:


> Capatalist gun to fire Communist rounds!
> What a TrumPutin gun!



Only 2800 piece will procure .


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## TsAr

bhola record said:


> i have seen the officer on the right all over army fanpages,Who is this showoff?


check the last hashtag

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## Reichmarshal

Both r ssg

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## The Terminator

Sifar zero said:


> Are these M4's?
> Do regulars use M4's now?


IMHO, maybe the M4 carried by regular Army uniformed officer is a borrowed one from an SSG dude just for photoshoot. But his casual looks hint towards that he could be an SSG himself. 

Or perhaps thats an SSG guy in Army Uniform as he removed identification patches from his shoulders. Maybe he likes the Army uniform camo pattern a lot and SSGs have acquired those camo uniforms in limited quantities as they tend to blend well in urban, suburban environments as compared to old style woodland camo

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## Bossman

Sifar zero said:


> Are these M4's?
> Do regulars use M4's now?


The light commando battalions are getting them.


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## bhola record

Bossman said:


> The light commando battalions are getting them.


 positive?


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## Metal 0-1

Sifar zero said:


> Are these M4's?
> Do regulars use M4's now?


Light Commando Battalion use M4s.

Not every one limited to some of them.


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## Bossman

bhola record said:


> positive?


10k have been ordered


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## bhola record

Bossman said:


> 10k have been ordered


Awesome edition for the boys in LCB.


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## iLION12345_1

Bossman said:


> 10k have been ordered


When? Are you confusing them with the AK103M?


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## Bossman

iLION12345_1 said:


> When? Are you confusing them with the AK103M?


No, I know the difference between AK and M4

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## PanzerKiel

Zarvan said:


> @PanzerKiel Sir please explain


Just for photo op... Regulars don't use M4.

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## Sifar zero

PanzerKiel said:


> Just for photo op... Regulars don't use M4.


I remember I saw a regular in Pindi with an ordinary M4 with no modifications.


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## PanzerKiel

Sifar zero said:


> I remember I saw a regular in Pindi with an ordinary M4 with no modifications.


Doesn't mean that they have been inducted for use.... Different infantry units, employed on special duties do get special weapons

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## bhola record

PanzerKiel said:


> Doesn't mean that they have been inducted for use.... Different infantry units, employed on special duties do get special weapons


One inquiry, does SF still use Steyr AUG?


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## PanzerKiel

bhola record said:


> One inquiry, does SF still use Steyr AUG?


Almost phased out... Given to other LEA like police and ASF

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## bhola record

PanzerKiel said:


> Almost phased out... Given to other LEA like police and ASF


would you recommend it for infantry?


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## PanzerKiel

bhola record said:


> would you recommend it for infantry?


Nothing wrong in any weapon, provided you can shoot to kill.... 12.7 mm to . 22... Everything kills.....

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## bhola record

PanzerKiel said:


> Nothing wrong in any weapon, provided you can shoot to kill.... 12.7 mm to . 22... Everything kills.....


hunter instincts.....

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## RAMPAGE

Zarvan said:


> I have serious doubt he is even Army. His over all posture makes me question that whether he is from Army or not ?











-part allep-2015-11-222015-11-22-On today's show: Shawaal Ka | Dunya News


On today's show: Shawaal Ka Mahaaz Part 2/2




video.dunyanews.tv





An interview of his from the Shawal Valley operation, 2015.

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## bhola record

RAMPAGE said:


> -part allep-2015-11-222015-11-22-On today's show: Shawaal Ka | Dunya News
> 
> 
> On today's show: Shawaal Ka Mahaaz Part 2/2
> 
> 
> 
> 
> video.dunyanews.tv
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> An interview of his from the Shawal Valley operation, 2015.


is there full episode of the same operation on mahaz ?


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## RAMPAGE

bhola record said:


> is there full episode of the same operation on mahaz ?


Don't know.


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## Bossman

We are importing M4s from Afghanistan now

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## Titanium100

Bossman said:


> We are importing M4s from Afghanistan now


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## The Terminator

Sifar zero said:


> I remember I saw a regular in Pindi with an ordinary M4 with no modifications.


I have seen many times police commandos with some exotic beauties like Steyr Aug etc. But that doesn't mean it's standard issue for them. As I recognized well those dudes were on security detail of our by then rulers the Shareef bradraan! So they got exotic beauties with them to show off.

Same could be applied to that regular soldier, you are telling about. On special duties, security detail of some big fish

Just like that 


PanzerKiel said:


> Nothing wrong in any weapon, provided you can shoot to kill.... 12.7 mm to . 22... Everything kills.....


What if I hide behind a window AC unit and you got .22 self defense weapon to shoot at me. It would be fun as long as there is an AC between us   . Well I would say even a decent sized steel cooking pot like frying pan would work just fine to frustrate you enough 

Well if you got 12.7mm then I would require a hell lot of more of ACs to defend myself but that wouldn't be good for our environment and ozone layer too

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## The Terminator

Bossman said:


> We are importing M4s from Afghanistan now


OK now you telling me that we are buying exploits of Bagram air base from Khan Sahib at Barha market, Peshawar?

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## Bossman

The Terminator said:


> OK now you telling me that we are buying exploits of Bagram air base from Khan Sahib at Barha market, Peshawar?


No, all the Afghan troops who are seeking refuge in Pakistan are leaving their M4s behind when they are returned.

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## The Terminator

PanzerKiel said:


> Almost phased out... Given to other LEA like police and ASF


I have heard that Steyr Aug was SSGN's weapon of choice for amphibious Ops due to its characteristic buoyancy. Doesn't it applies anymore???

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## Titanium100

The Terminator said:


> OK now you telling me that we are buying exploits of Bagram air base from Khan Sahib at Barha market, Peshawar?



Supplies of virgin


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## Raja Porus

@PanzerKiel sir, can a regular infantryman buy and use his own rifle in field?


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## PanzerKiel

Desert Fox 1 said:


> @PanzerKiel sir, can a regular infantryman buy and use his own rifle in field?


He can't afford it otherwise.... Nor he is allowed to do so... Any incident which happens then will be his own responsibility...

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## Raja Porus

PanzerKiel said:


> He can't afford it otherwise


I meant an officer.


PanzerKiel said:


> He can't afford it otherwise.... Nor he is allowed to do so... Any incident which happens then will be his own responsibility...


What about attachments?


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## Maarkhoor

Desert Fox 1 said:


> @PanzerKiel sir, can a regular infantryman buy and use his own rifle in field?


Neither any officer even a General nor the soldier can bring his own weapon. period

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## bhola record

PanzerKiel said:


> He can't afford it otherwise.... Nor he is allowed to do so... Any incident which happens then will be his own responsibility...


can he used captured weaponry?


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## Ghost 125

Desert Fox 1 said:


> I meant an officer.
> 
> What about attachments?


what made you think that officer can afford an M4

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## Raja Porus

Ghost 125 said:


> what made you think that officer can afford an M4


No I menat any type of weapon,not necessarily a Scar etc but even something like an old original AK.


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## Metal 0-1

Desert Fox 1 said:


> What about attachments?


You can fiddle around with original accessories given they should remain on the rifle.


But Armoury guys are hated everywhere

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## PanzerKiel

Maarkhoor said:


> Neither any officer even a General nor the soldier can bring his own weapon. period


On the contrary...

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## bhola record

doorstar said:


> elaborate please. unless they are some kinda warlords and law unto themselves, *service personnel are subject to the law* and are not permitted to possess firearms which are not part of the standard kit.


does that apply to special forces?


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## Maarkhoor

bhola record said:


> can he used captured weaponry?


In case of war yes, Our soldiers posted on LOC during Kargil war used to kill enemy by their captured weapons.

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## bananarepublic

PanzerKiel said:


> On the contrary...


Haha, those lovely AKs
Who could bear the temptation

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## Great Janjua

AK 103 perfect weapon for our environment as it requires little maintenance yet stays true to the fighting cause. I've seen countless quality tests on this weapon one such test was a gun busters test,Continuous firing of weapon until it fails the AK 103 managed to last an astonishing barrage of 1400 rounds non stop that is an incredible feat, Tells you a lot about the quality of the weapon,A Must have for our LEA'S to replace the old heavy AK'S.In My opinion we should go for tot and the army should adapt the AK 103,But with picatinny on the hand guard which is absent from the ones at least I have seen arriving in Pakistan recently am sure of it,But I cannot recall if the top cover mounted picatinny were present or not.

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## The Terminator

Pakistan Army should include new generation rifle testing criteria such as the firearm stability and accuracy while bunny hopping or mid air jumping through the roof tops, hip fire accurately to 100 meters with rifles too, for the satisfaction of our futures prospective soldiers. The young people who are at home due to Covid for almost 2 years now and have honed their tactical skills well and CQB training sessions at home. Otherwise they may refuse to join the not so exciting military.

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## Ahmet Pasha

PanzerKiel said:


> On the contrary...


İ think in WoT early on some officers bought some Nato/Chinese attachments which were easily available from Hayatabad/Bara markets and border areas. 

Then it became a unit level thing where officers would get attachments/optics for their units. İ believe this is standard practice now (correct me if I'm wrong).


The Terminator said:


> CQB training sessions at home.


You mean fighting with the wife and kids??

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## bhola record

Ahmet Pasha said:


> kids


hand to hand combat.

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## Ahmet Pasha

bhola record said:


> hand to hand combat.

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## The Terminator

Ghost 125 said:


> what made you think that officer can afford an M4


Price of a decent M4/Ar-15 maybe around 1000 to 1200 $ in the US. Our officers families run their businesses in the US too. So why the heck they can't afford a pathetic M4 being sold there like candies . Whereas an under average American Joe could have a stockpile of those rifles dumped under his bed.


Ahmet Pasha said:


> You mean fighting with the wife and kids??


I talked about the kids, students playing video games continuously day & night due to Covid holidays for almost 2 years.


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## bhola record

The Terminator said:


> Price of a decent M4/Ar-15 maybe around 1000 to 1200 $ in the US. Our officers families run their businesses in the US too. So why the heck they can't afford a pathetic M4 being sold there like candies . Whereas an under average American Joe could have a stockpile of those rifles dumped under his bed.


sirjee the thing is army officers have different backgrounds.Some are son of JCOs, some generals,some businessmen, some of them have poor background.
One thing can work,a license from colt which i dont think will ever happen or maybe.

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## The Terminator

Well even US military personnels used captured AKs in Iraq and perhaps Afghanistan too to their advantage. But even then they had to maintain their standard issued weapon in pristine shape unless they wanna get into some real trouble. Loss of Standard issued weapon in the battlefield should have to be backed up by a really good reason, solid story and fellow soldiers witnesses to just get away with minimal paperwork.

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## Ahmet Pasha

The Terminator said:


> Price of a decent M4/Ar-15 maybe around 1000 to 1200 $ in the US. Our officers families run their businesses in the US too. So why the heck they can't afford a pathetic M4 being sold there like candies . Whereas an under average American Joe could have a stockpile of those rifles dumped under his bed.
> 
> I talked about the kids, students playing video games continuously day & night due to Covid holidays for almost 2 years.


Bro milspec M16 İ saw on gun trader last year was $3500.

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## The Terminator

bhola record said:


> sirjee the thing is army officers have different backgrounds.Some are son of JCOs, some generals,some businessmen, some of them have poor background.
> One thing can work,a license from colt which i dont think will ever happen or maybe.


Why do you think Colt M4 is generations ahead than what we currently operating and our prospective future acquisition? Even their own soldiers preferred AKs and then adopted 7.62 calibre rifles in frontline units too. I bet if they would have found a stash of our oldie G3s there, they would have picked up that too. Because G3 still shoots with a heck lot of muzzle energy to hammer down the sturdiest of the targets. They eventually adopted its successor in shape of SCAR-H.

Every platform has its pros and cons. There isn't an ultimate rifle for the super soldiers. And yes cold War Era weapons can still put holes in the body through modern body armor but ehh with less modularity and creature comfort though.


Ahmet Pasha said:


> Bro milspec M16 İ saw on gun trader last year was $3500.


In civilian market?
As I already mentioned as a decent or you may say cost effective choice. Better than the shit created in darra at least. 

Their local gunsmith industry is far far better, centuries ahead in QC, tech, metallurgy and educated workforce than our ancient style handcrafted gun manufacturing industry.


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## Ghost 125

The Terminator said:


> Price of a decent M4/Ar-15 maybe around 1000 to 1200 $ in the US. Our officers families run their businesses in the US too.


perhaps you know better about wealth of officers than me. there is a reference in your post, but officers does not means only Generals, plus gens dont have to move arround in battlefield showing off their M4s. and for Lts, Capts, Majs, Lt Cols and Brigs....its a luxury.

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## iLION12345_1

Ghost 125 said:


> perhaps you know better about wealth of officers than me. there is a reference in your post, but officers does not means only Generals, plus gens dont have to move arround in battlefield showing off their M4s. and for Lts, Capts, Majs, Lt Cols and Brigs....its a luxury.


It’s just hilarious how much people think the average army officer earns. They see one retired general with a successful business (either that one is corrupt or not has little relation to the army given the nature of Pakistani people; there will be 10 rich, corrupt government officials and politicians for every corrupt retired army officer, not that it justifies any army or Ex-army persons corruption) and think every officer from a Lt to a brigadier is living in the lap of luxury too. 

It’s come to the point where any successful retired army officer is instantly considered to be “doing business in the US”, as if there’s anything wrong with that in the first place, and just imagine if one were able to do a successful business or job in Pakistan. Oh no, that one just _has_ to be corrupt.

It more speaks about the condition of the country where one has to think if corruption is involved every time there is a mildly successful person. The loud and corrupt minority makes the silent and hard working majority look bad too.

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## The Terminator

iLION12345_1 said:


> It’s just hilarious how much people think the average army officer earns. They see one retired general with a successful business (either that one is corrupt or not has little relation to the army given the nature of Pakistani people; there will be 10 rich, corrupt government officials and politicians for every corrupt retired army officer, not that it justifies any army or Ex-army persons corruption) and think every officer from a Lt to a brigadier is living in the lap of luxury too.
> 
> It’s come to the point where any successful retired army officer is instantly considered to be “doing business in the US”, as if there’s anything wrong with that in the first place, and just imagine if one were able to do a successful business or job in Pakistan. Oh no, that one just _has_ to be corrupt.
> 
> It more speaks about the condition of the country where one has to think if corruption is involved every time there is a mildly successful person. The loud and corrupt minority makes the silent and hard working majority look bad too.


You can't win bidding of projects either very small or big ones unless you got connections with people at right places and you have to give monetary benefits to them for your success. It works 90% of the time here. I am not saying that the other countries are free from corruption but here in our beloved Pakistan corruption is more pronounced, visible and doesn't shy from glamorizing itself publicly. 

You might be right about the military having better record, but still military too is the part of our society and state where dishonesty and corruption is rampant. Even religious leaders, who 24/7 instill fear of God amongst public are corrupt to their core, while they daily recite the verses of Quran and Ahdees about the punishment and wrath of God for those who are corrupt, usurpers and dishonest. But not all of them for sure, there are people of great dignity and have high moral values too. 

Majority of the people can't get their day to day routine calmly and claim what's rightfully their's without bribery and references of people with power. So if there's a widely accepted perception that every successful person here must would have some "connections" and would have indulged in white collar crimes to be successful as he is today. Those perceptions have some strong base in our society by just observing the ground realities of our everyday life here. 

But of course there could be some exceptions too.

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## The Terminator

Ghost 125 said:


> perhaps you know better about wealth of officers than me. there is a reference in your post, but officers does not means only Generals, plus gens dont have to move arround in battlefield showing off their M4s. and for Lts, Capts, Majs, Lt Cols and Brigs....its a luxury.


Agreed. Here's where our Govt and military top brass should concentrate on. When a junior ranked soldier gets severely injured, permanently disabled or martyred in the battlefield, he or his family is compensated in millions worth of cash, land and better job opportunity for his kid. That's great at least our soldier knows that his family is covered and he got a decent life insurance on him.

But 1 counter narrative could be that instead of compensating the casualties of NCOs and JCOs, why not avoid it from happening at the first place? By providing them with better equipment and better protected vehicles and putting emphasis/money on the human resource.

If you put me in their place and I have been offered 2 options. First option would be that I would get tens of millions in compensation if I ever get seriously wounded/disabled or KIA. Or the second option would be to provide me the best possible equipment, training, logistics and safety gear instead. I would always go for the latter one because it wouldn't only give me the better fighting chance against all odds, maybe high probability of protecting myself and my buddies to be badly injured in sticky situations but it would also increase my overall efficiency in the battlefield rather than be a liability to my family and department after loosing a limb or two, let alone the trauma I would face after being permanently disabled and be dependant upon others for my daily tasks for the rest of my life.

So if you think M4 is much better than what we currently have, then all of my soldiers and military officers on the front lines deserve the best. Why not HK 416. No compromises upon human lives whatsoever.

Alas! But the tragedy is they never get asked. There is even a corruption in opinions too. Either the main stake holders nvere get asked or they are brainwashed to the extent that they loose the ability to apprehend and think of their own opinion about their betterment.

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## The Terminator

What China does to circumvent the western tech ban on China and fast track their tech research is that they absorb smaller insignificant but really potent startups or small/medium enterprises by investing heavily in them. When these companies get absorbed, their skills, achievements and IPOs inadvertently goes into the Chinese control.  seemless, effective and really a corporate way of achieving your end goal.

IMHO why don't we do the same? OK majority of us are illiterates, we don't know 💩 about metallurgy and polymers, so what? Invest in a capable local western gunsmith company and stick to them like parasites 😜.

In other words float a tender of a million dollar for a new Assault rifle on the market. Peanuts for the military but a huge amount for smaller companies. Test their reliability and accuracy of the parts presented by the competitors. Select the best one and buy its 50% of the shares from 3rd party offshore companies if you can't acquire them directly. Open their branch in Pakistan and Let them make a rifle for our Army. The designs of the rifles and their gas operating system are not a secret to anybody, but metallurgy is. Just copy the best possible design like H&K 416 in 5.56 category and enhance it to the required standards. Thats how we can get our 100% indigenous rifle 2nd to none.
It would also close the decades of our tech gap with the rest of the world.

Our behemoths like POF, HIT, and PAC should follow the suite and an easier way to the glory rather than begging other's made stuff to defend ourselves.

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## JPMM

Ok, I will try help you get to the 500 mark
The Pakistan Army could try a 2 speed replacement program.
Keep 70% of the units with thier old rifles, and go for a new off-the-shelf rifle, allready in production somewhere only for their 1st tier forces (ex Strike Corps, Rapid deployment forces, SSG and LCB)
This way you only need 30% of the money do go ahead with it and you could just "BUY" instead the guns, no TOT, no more tests, just delivery

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## Invictus01

It's funny how people select a rifle based purely on looks with zero knowledge of the firearms industry
I'm a gun enthusiastic with trigger time behind a lot of guns
CZ makes the best affordable firearms in the world hands down. FN on the other hand is expensive & overrated 
I really hope PA goes for CZ

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## Bossman

Invictus01 said:


> It's funny how people select a rifle based purely on looks with zero knowledge of the firearms industry
> I'm a gun enthusiastic with trigger time behind a lot of guns
> CZ makes the best affordable firearms in the world hands down. FN on the other hand is expensive & overrated
> I really hope PA goes for CZ


I have seen evidence of something going on between POF and CZ. I don’t know what it is or how big it is but something is going on. Some POF stuff was being tested in CZ.

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## JPMM

Bossman said:


> I have seen evidence of something going on between POF and CZ. I don’t know what it is or how big it is but something is going on. Some POF stuff was being tested in CZ.


If you could view my vote above, its CZ since the begining.
My Army shouse the SCAR becouse it was affered better economic solution and extra rifles for free. I was part of a larger deal with LMGs/HMGs/40mm GLs and sniper rifles included, and in both calibres (5.56/7.62)
My Air Force shouse the CZ instead, but in smaller numbers.

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## Black Tornado

Invictus01 said:


> It's funny how people select a rifle based purely on looks with zero knowledge of the firearms industry
> I'm a gun enthusiastic with trigger time behind a lot of guns
> CZ makes the best affordable firearms in the world hands down. FN on the other hand is expensive & overrated
> I really hope PA goes for CZ


CZ BRENS are made in India


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## Bossman

Sudarshan said:


> CZ BRENS are made in India


1933 model? Still in service?

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## Black Tornado

Bossman said:


> 1933 model? Still in service?


807, in Police Commando Units of AP and Telangana Police.


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## The Terminator

Invictus01 said:


> It's funny how people select a rifle based purely on looks with zero knowledge of the firearms industry
> I'm a gun enthusiastic with trigger time behind a lot of guns
> CZ makes the best affordable firearms in the world hands down. FN on the other hand is expensive & overrated
> I really hope PA goes for CZ


When Pakistan Army acquired the present G3 rifle, it was one of the best battlefield rifles available back then produced by a prestigious manufacturer namely H&K Germany. Similarly the MG3 the most effective Machine gun having a pedigree of the most feared MG42 of World War 2. H&K have a track record of troubleshooting and improving the unreliable British bullpups too.

By that standard PA should go for H&K or the next best manufactures like FN or Sig. Or adapt their eastern counterpart equally famous kalashnikov. Nothing less than that. We want the best and iconic weapon not a try hard weapon from some 2nd tier manufacturer


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## Bossman

The Terminator said:


> When Pakistan Army acquired the present G3 rifle, it was one of the best battlefield rifles available back then produced by a prestigious manufacturer namely H&K Germany. Similarly the MG3 the most effective Machine gun having a pedigree of the most feared MG42 of World War 2. H&K have a track record of troubleshooting and improving the unreliable British bullpups too.
> 
> By that standard PA should go for H&K or the next best manufactures like FN or Sig. Or adapt their eastern counterpart equally famous kalashnikov. Nothing less than that. We want the best and iconic weapon not a try hard weapon from some 2nd tier manufacturer


HK will not sell to Pakistan any more.


Sudarshan said:


> 807, in Police Commando Units of AP and Telangana Police.


I think still in use with regular Indian Army.


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## Zarvan

Invictus01 said:


> It's funny how people select a rifle based purely on looks with zero knowledge of the firearms industry
> I'm a gun enthusiastic with trigger time behind a lot of guns
> CZ makes the best affordable firearms in the world hands down. FN on the other hand is expensive & overrated
> I really hope PA goes for CZ


Looks really. Then how come SCAR came first in our trials. To which dominated the trials were SCAR and AK 103. Although several other guns passed. But after six years I give a dam which Rifle comes even CZ and AK-103 I am happy only thing I want is even if CZ comes it comes as whole series from that what I mean is we produce 5.56 CZ and CZ 7.62 X 39 and CZ 7.62 X 51.


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## SSGOPERATOR

Assalam o Alaikum
Tou Akhir kb select hogi ye rifle ya kuch select hogya hain?


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## bhola record

SSGOPERATOR said:


> Assalam o Alaikum
> Tou Akhir kb select hogi ye rifle ya kuch select hogya hain?


ghas khana shuru kare pehle pakistani awam phir dekhain ge.

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## Bigbang1983

PanzerKiel said:


> Nothing wrong in any weapon, provided you can shoot to kill.... 12.7 mm to . 22... Everything kills.....



Salam,

A wounded/injured soldier is a much bigger burden on the enemy logistics and resources compared to a dead soldier. I am pretty sure that this factor is important in deciding which assault refile is to go for.

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## SSGOPERATOR

Bigbang1983 said:


> Salam,
> 
> A wounded/injured soldier is a much bigger burden on the enemy logistics and resources compared to a dead soldier. I am pretty sure that this factor is important in deciding which assault refile is to go for.


Assalam o Alaikum
WDYM?
Sometimes the enemy is beghairat and doesn't care about wounded soldiers.
Wesey will SSG get something special like HK 416, L119A2, etc.

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## bhola record

SSGOPERATOR said:


> Assalam o Alaikum
> WDYM?
> Sometimes the enemy is beghairat and doesn't care about wounded soldiers.
> Wesey will SSG get something special like HK 416, L119A2, etc.


this is what happens when casualities mount.Taking a soldier from med evac a heli or a car to field doctor if it is serious to cmh an operation in CMH it is costly yes but objective of war is not to kill people but to achive political victory swiftly.Sun tzu says a skilled warrior is not one who fights the enemy to last but wins over the enemy without fighting.

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## Aamir Hussain

One of the reasons given in field in US Army for adopting a 5.56 mm cartridge instead of the standard 7.76 mm was the very same reason that Bigbang1983 alluded in his post ..... it takes 8 to 10 people to take care of a wounded soldier vs 3 for a dead one

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## Reichmarshal

Aamir Hussain said:


> One of the reasons given in field in US Army for adopting a 5.56 mm cartridge instead of the standard 7.76 mm was the very same reason that Bigbang1983 alluded in his post ..... it takes 8 to 10 people to take care of a wounded soldier vs 3 for a dead one


That theory failed with a big bang i afg n iraq....so much so that foreign troops specially special forces were using guns with bigger catriges specially 7.76 chambered weapons. 
The u.s too is moving away from 5.56 n tilting towards 6.8 special.

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## Bigbang1983

Reichmarshal said:


> That theory failed with a big bang i afg n iraq....so much so that foreign troops specially special forces were using guns with bigger catriges specially 7.76 chambered weapons.
> The u.s too is moving away from 5.56 n tilting towards 6.8 special.



Salam, 
In my opinion..
This theory did not fail. NATO shifted from 7.62 to 5.56 because in a conventional war scenario (NATO vs Warsaw Pact) logistical cost of wounded soldier was estimated to be a lot more compared to a dead soldier. And so the war objective was not to eliminate the enemy entirely by killing each and every soldier but to wound it to such a degree that it's war machine would collapse and enemy would raise a white flag. 

Afghanistan on the other hand wasn't a conventional war between two professional armies having any kind of symmetry or similarities. But still one of the many reasons for US pull out or for that matter the Soviat pull out in the 1980s is the cost of care and rehabilitation/compensation of wounded soldiers. This isn't just a burden on the finances of running the war effort, infact it also weakens the political narrative and makes the task of selling the idea of war to domestic audience difficult. 

A Soldier wounded in war may talk to the media at times, may become an anti-war activist, seek compensation for mental and physical health (PTSD is too common) and many times even gets involved in criminal activities/domestic violence. 

A dead soldier.... doesn't do any of that.

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## JPMM

Bigbang1983 said:


> Salam,
> In my opinion..
> This theory did not fail. NATO shifted from 7.62 to 5.56 because in a conventional war scenario (NATO vs Warsaw Pact) logistical cost of wounded soldier was estimated to be a lot more compared to a dead soldier. And so the war objective was not to eliminate the enemy entirely by killing each and every soldier but to wound it to such a degree that it's war machine would collapse and enemy would raise a white flag.
> 
> Afghanistan on the other hand wasn't a conventional war between two professional armies having any kind of symmetry or similarities. But still one of the many reasons for US pull out or for that matter the Soviat pull out in the 1980s is the cost of care and rehabilitation/compensation of wounded soldiers. This isn't just a burden on the finances of running the war effort, infact it also weakens the political narrative and makes the task of selling the idea of war to domestic audience difficult.
> 
> A Soldier wounded in war may talk to the media at times, may become an anti-war activist, seek compensation for mental and physical health (PTSD is too common) and many times even gets involved in criminal activities/domestic violence.
> 
> A dead soldier.... doesn't do any of that.


For NATO at that time the reasons were:
1. Soldier carry more ammo (holding more time without resuply)
2. Its not so powerfull as 7.62, but it will still make a deadly unjury (you could survive, but you will not fight)
3. After being shoot, if you dont get a doctor, you will slowly die

It was before the bullet proof vests penetration by the 7.62

Sorry for my English!

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## The Terminator

Bigbang1983 said:


> Salam,
> In my opinion..
> This theory did not fail. NATO shifted from 7.62 to 5.56 because in a conventional war scenario (NATO vs Warsaw Pact) logistical cost of wounded soldier was estimated to be a lot more compared to a dead soldier. And so the war objective was not to eliminate the enemy entirely by killing each and every soldier but to wound it to such a degree that it's war machine would collapse and enemy would raise a white flag.
> 
> Afghanistan on the other hand wasn't a conventional war between two professional armies having any kind of symmetry or similarities. But still one of the many reasons for US pull out or for that matter the Soviat pull out in the 1980s is the cost of care and rehabilitation/compensation of wounded soldiers. This isn't just a burden on the finances of running the war effort, infact it also weakens the political narrative and makes the task of selling the idea of war to domestic audience difficult.
> 
> A Soldier wounded in war may talk to the media at times, may become an anti-war activist, seek compensation for mental and physical health (PTSD is too common) and many times even gets involved in criminal activities/domestic violence.
> 
> A dead soldier.... doesn't do any of that.


Plus a constantly crying wounded soldier greatly demoralizes his comrades than a dead soldier and reduces the combat effectiveness of the whole group. Too many injured soldiers in the battlefield may become a huge liability for that military and may render them completely defenseless and immobile. 

But in case of Pakistan vs India scenario, we are already greatly outnumbered by the adversary, so injuring them only does not serve our military objectives well.


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## The Terminator

bhola record said:


> ghas khana shuru kare pehle pakistani awam phir dekhain ge.


Jesy Rupee free fall me he. R prices skyrocket kr rhi hen. Rifle len ya na len. Ghaas zrur khani prhegi 

Pakistan has to payback $40 billion loan in next 3 years . Compound with trade deficit and budgetary loss = ghaas khani parhegi.

US is in no mood to bailout us this time as we are already very much in the cross hairs of the west due to rising China.

That's why IK can't get Biden on call. FATF is just a joke, expect more sanctions in the future unless we once again decide to work for them as cheap daily wager as we used to do in the past. 

The only difference is: this time it's not the poor already crumbling Afghanistan. This time our assignment would be one of the most powerful countries located right next door to us-China. We are certainly going to be the playground of Cold War 2.0. Even futuristic high powered laser rifles wouldn't do much good in that regard.

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## The Terminator

Bossman said:


> HK will not sell to Pakistan any more.
> 
> I think still in use with regular Indian Army.


Why do you think Germany wouldn't sell small arms to our military? If we can't afford them isn't their problem. I think H&K new LMG was also available to all potential global consumers. We may have replaced or complemented our bulky MG-3s with them if we wanted to.


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## CriticalThought

So this incident happened in a Karachi hospital. Someone's security guard was standing outside the operation theatre and this big Afghan guy was also sitting nearby. All of a sudden the Afghan started talking about 'those tiny bullets the Americans are using'. According to this guy, he can himself take two or three of them without any trouble. Good luck to those supporting 5.56.

The reason why America does something can be very different to what you think. For example, American forces have a large number of females and they want females to be able to function. For the Americans, it made perfect sense to have a smaller, accurate round so they can rely on pumping multiple bullets quickly. Unfortunately, Afghanistan made that thinking obsolete. Don't blindly start following others, use your own brains. We have men in our army how have iron grips. The AK-47 and G-3 are naturally suited to them. We have a long history of training with these calibers. Why do we need to change?

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## Zarvan

The Terminator said:


> Why do you think Germany wouldn't sell small arms to our military? If we can't afford them isn't their problem. I think H&K new LMG was also available to all potential global consumers. We may have replaced or complemented our bulky MG-3s with them if we wanted to.


Germany even refused to sell weapons to India. And trust me India can afford them. We can also afford them. We invited every one. They themselves chose not to come.


CriticalThought said:


> So this incident happened in a Karachi hospital. Someone's security guard was standing outside the operation theatre and this big Afghan guy was also sitting nearby. All of a sudden the Afghan started talking about 'those tiny bullets the Americans are using'. According to this guy, he can himself take two or three of them without any trouble. Good luck to those supporting 5.56.
> 
> The reason why America does something can be very different to what you think. For example, American forces have a large number of females and they want females to be able to function. For the Americans, it made perfect sense to have a smaller, accurate round so they can rely on pumping multiple bullets quickly. Unfortunately, Afghanistan made that thinking obsolete. Don't blindly start following others, use your own brains. We have men in our army how have iron grips. The AK-47 and G-3 are naturally suited to them. We have a long history of training with these calibers. Why do we need to change?


Go learn something about CQB and few other stuff. 5.56 for Police and law enforcement in cities is more then enough. What you work on is training of your Police plus giving the scopes and other stuff along with establishing special forces unit and helicopters and other stuff.


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## CriticalThought

Zarvan said:


> Germany even refused to sell weapons to India. And trust me India can afford them. We can also afford them. We invited every one. They themselves chose not to come.
> 
> Go learn something about CQB and few other stuff. 5.56 for Police and law enforcement in cities is more then enough. What you work on is training of your Police plus giving the scopes and other stuff along with establishing special forces unit and helicopters and other stuff.



Please don't tell me to go learn anything, you aren't in a position to do so. For CQB, our LEAs already have specialized units with specialized weapons. In Karachi, putting 5.56 in the hands of policemen is like a death sentence when MQM goons have AK-47s in their hands. Anyway, we are discussing the army here, why are you going off topic by bringing in the police?

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## Zarvan

CriticalThought said:


> Please don't tell me to go learn anything, you aren't in a position to do so. For CQB, our LEAs already have specialized units with specialized weapons. In Karachi, putting 5.56 in the hands of policemen is like a death sentence when MQM goons have AK-47s in their hands. Anyway, we are discussing the army here, why are you going off topic by brining in the police?


@PanzerKiel This is what we deal with here. 

No it's not a death sentence. A Policeman with 5.56 caliber can do a great job. It's 5.56 caliber assault rifle not a 9 MM h and gun. For love of GOD you seriously need to go and learn stuff.

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## CriticalThought

Zarvan said:


> @PanzerKiel This is what we deal with here.
> 
> No it's not a death sentence. A Policeman with 5.56 caliber can do a great job. It's 5.56 caliber assault rifle not a 9 MM h and gun. For love of GOD you seriously need to go and learn stuff.



Don't waste bandwidth on the 5.56 vs 7.62x39 debate. Only sore losers do that. And don't try to fix what ain't broke either. Only idiots do that.

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## Raja Porus

Zarvan said:


> Germany even refused to sell weapons to India. And trust me India can afford them. We can also afford them. We invited every one. They themselves chose not to come.
> 
> Go learn something about CQB and few other stuff. 5.56 for Police and law enforcement in cities is more then enough. What you work on is training of your Police plus giving the scopes and other stuff along with establishing special forces unit and helicopters and other stuff.


Dear the days of intense COIN ops are over and if our men were able to do that with the G3s and 7.62 then there is no need to change the calibre now when India is our nemesis again.
Also in the video of the BLA attack on the FC check post, one can see that there is almost no cover for the attackers and the G3(or any other 7.62) with its long range,huge stopping power, low ammo consumption and accuracy would have been enough to hold the terrorists at bay provided the attackers had been detected earlier.
As far as CQB is concerned regular PA will not be doing it anymore with LCBs in each corps, FC and police having there own SF and SSG also available on hand

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## Bossman

The Terminator said:


> Why do you think Germany wouldn't sell small arms to our military? If we can't afford them isn't their problem. I think H&K new LMG was also available to all potential global consumers. We may have replaced or complemented our bulky MG-3s with them if we wanted to.


German legislation


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## akramishaqkhan

CriticalThought said:


> So this incident happened in a Karachi hospital. Someone's security guard was standing outside the operation theatre and this big Afghan guy was also sitting nearby. All of a sudden the Afghan started talking about 'those tiny bullets the Americans are using'. According to this guy, he can himself take two or three of them without any trouble. Good luck to those supporting 5.56.
> 
> The reason why America does something can be very different to what you think. For example, American forces have a large number of females and they want females to be able to function. For the Americans, it made perfect sense to have a smaller, accurate round so they can rely on pumping multiple bullets quickly. Unfortunately, Afghanistan made that thinking obsolete. Don't blindly start following others, use your own brains. We have men in our army how have iron grips. The AK-47 and G-3 are naturally suited to them. We have a long history of training with these calibers. Why do we need to change?



My dear anyone who says they can take a couple of 5.56 rounds and survive has never shot or seen damage from a 5.56. It is a devastating round. Also please remember there is more to a round's efficacy than just its caliber. There is also velocity. Finally range also factors as does arching and tumbling once on target (not to mention personal armor penetration/protection at different ranges comes into play as well). So please avoid making this argument. Ballistics are complex.

Also the 5.56 round was not a function of increase in female soldiers in the US Army. The primary purpose of this round which is called the Nato spec (5.56Nato), was meant for a few reasons:

1) Lighter rounds allowing for greater number that can be carried by a solider
2) Goal of round was to critically injure soldiers rather than kill (instantly), so one injured soldier would require a min of 2-3 to take care of them. This would tie up more soldiers in caring for the injured soldier than be actively engaged in battle.

The above allowed for building some balance to the size differential in number of soldiers between the Eastern and Western block.

Hope this gives you a bit of perspective on why the Nato Spec was chosen - it was not because more women were being recruited. This decision was made well before that shift in recruitment.

I think the above has been discussed at detail so I am not adding much to this discourse.
What is important to discuss on this thread is why PA has not finalized a rifle. G3s are in a bad state. G3s issued to the field are not the pristine ones one gets to see at IDEAS. They are weathered, beaten down and often run through field issues. Also G3s have a massive recoil, and putting accurate high rate of fire at distances is very difficult. 

PA needs to close the loop on their NGIW.

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## CriticalThought

akramishaqkhan said:


> My dear anyone who says they can take a couple of 5.56 rounds and survive has never shot or seen damage from a 5.56. It is a devastating round. Also please remember there is more to a round's efficacy than just its caliber. There is also velocity. Finally range also factors as does arching and tumbling once on target (not to mention personal armor penetration/protection at different ranges comes into play as well). So please avoid making this argument. Ballistics are complex.
> 
> Also the 5.56 round was not a function of increase in female soldiers in the US Army. The primary purpose of this round which is called the Nato spec (5.56Nato), was meant for a few reasons:
> 
> 1) Lighter rounds allowing for greater number that can be carried by a solider
> 2) Goal of round was to critically injure soldiers rather than kill (instantly), so one injured soldier would require a min of 2-3 to take care of them. This would tie up more soldiers in caring for the injured soldier than be actively engaged in battle.
> 
> The above allowed for building some balance to the size differential in number of soldiers between the Eastern and Western block.
> 
> Hope this gives you a bit of perspective on why the Nato Spec was chosen - it was not because more women were being recruited. This decision was made well before that shift in recruitment.
> 
> I think the above has been discussed at detail so I am not adding much to this discourse.
> What is important to discuss on this thread is why PA has not finalized a rifle. G3s are in a bad state. G3s issued to the field are not the pristine ones one gets to see at IDEAS. They are weathered, beaten down and often run through field issues. Also G3s have a massive recoil, and putting accurate high rate of fire at distances is very difficult.
> 
> PA needs to close the loop on their NGIW.



I know the publicized arguments in favor of 5.56. And I was asking people to look beyond the obvious. Blindly accepting reasons given by others leaves us vulnerable. The Afghan guy might have been exaggerating, but why is the internet full of problems with 5.56? Take a look here as an example









The Small Arms Calibre Debate


In an era of ‘shock and awe’ warfare where a deadly cocktail of sophisticated combat aircraft and smart munitions can deliver unprecedented destructive firepower, any debate about military small ar…




www.thinkdefence.co.uk






> *2. Inconsistent lethality*. There have been instances where enemy combatants have not been neutralised by 5.56 mm bullets, sometimes despite receiving multiple hits. This has happened at longer ranges, but also, surprisingly, at shorter ranges.



Just type 'Problems of 5.56 in Afghanistan' and a whole slew of pages comes up. This is well known to anyone who has been keeping tabs on the situation, which is why it is so funny that people are trying to educate me.

I would love it if POF can solve the problems with G3. I want the best for our troops. But that doesn't mean we need to move to a lower calibre.

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## Metal 0-1

CriticalThought said:


> I know the publicized arguments in favor of 5.56. And I was asking people to look beyond the obvious. Blindly accepting reasons given by others leaves us vulnerable. The Afghan guy might have been exaggerating, but why is the internet full of problems with 5.56? Take a look here as an example
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Small Arms Calibre Debate
> 
> 
> In an era of ‘shock and awe’ warfare where a deadly cocktail of sophisticated combat aircraft and smart munitions can deliver unprecedented destructive firepower, any debate about military small ar…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thinkdefence.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just type 'Problems of 5.56 in Afghanistan' and a whole slew of pages comes up. This is well known to anyone who has been keeping tabs on the situation, which is why it is so funny that people are trying to educate me.
> 
> I would love it if POF can solve the problems with G3. I want the best for our troops. But that doesn't mean we need to move to a lower calibre.


If you are high on adrenaline couple of AK rounds will not do anything.


There are stories guys getting shot and never realising that they got shot because they are high on adrenaline.

Military teaches you 2 in the chest 1 in the head. In reality it's shoot them until they stop breathing.


Same for AK rounds.

7.26x39 rounds are only devastating 300-400 meters. After that they loose energy drastically. 

5.56 on the other hand is effective from medium to long ranges.
5.56 produce tumbling as soon as it enters body.

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## CriticalThought

Metal 0-1 said:


> If you are high on adrenaline couple of AK rounds will not do anything.
> 
> 
> There are stories guys getting shot and never realising that they got shot because they are high on adrenaline.
> 
> Military teaches you 2 in the chest 1 in the head. In reality it's shoot them until they stop breathing.
> 
> 
> Same for AK rounds.
> 
> 7.26x39 rounds are only devastating 300-400 meters. After that they loose energy drastically.
> 
> 5.56 on the other hand is effective from medium to long ranges.
> 5.56 produce tumbling as soon as it enters body.



You'll have to show me data on the efficacy of 5.56 in medium to long range.

The fragmentation is a result of type of material used. You can achieve the same with x39 by using the right material.


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## Raja Porus

I remember manstein once quoted an incident when his fellow SSG officer, in a COIN op shot at the terrorists with 5.56. Thinking all the terrorists have been neutralised they moved closer. Suddenly one of the tangos, who had been shot multiple times picked up an AK. The officer and the terrorist fired at each other at the same time,the officer lost his eye amd the terrorist his eye...
Also we must remember that the issue is of the gun(G3) and not of the bullet.

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## Metal 0-1

Desert Fox 1 said:


> I remember manstein once quoted an incident when his fellow SSG officer, in a COIN op shot at the terrorists with 5.56. Thinking all the terrorists have been neutralised they moved closer. Suddenly one of the tangos, who had been shot multiple times picked up an AK. The officer and the terrorist fired at each other at the same time,the officer lost his eye amd the terrorist his eye...
> Also we must remember that the issue is of the gun(G3) and not of the bullet.


Shoot them till they stop breathing. It's not two in the chest on in the head.

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## Baloch Pakistani

Metal 0-1 said:


> If you are high on adrenaline couple of AK rounds will not do anything.
> 
> 
> There are stories guys getting shot and never realising that they got shot because they are high on adrenaline.
> 
> Military teaches you 2 in the chest 1 in the head. In reality it's shoot them until they stop breathing.
> 
> 
> Same for AK rounds.
> 
> 7.26x39 rounds are only devastating 300-400 meters. After that they loose energy drastically.
> 
> 5.56 on the other hand is effective from medium to long ranges.
> 5.56 produce tumbling as soon as it enters body.


A little off topic but Mk262 Mod1 is one of the most devastating rounds available for 5.56mm. Greentip is notorious for its lack of tumbling effect and zips through its target. There are many comparison videos available of xm193 vs greentip vs mk262 mod1. Even the older xm193 performs better than the greentip. I tried to find mk262 in Pakistan but no luck so far.

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## bananarepublic

Metal 0-1 said:


> If you are high on adrenaline couple of AK rounds will not do anything.
> 
> 
> There are stories guys getting shot and never realising that they got shot because they are high on adrenaline.
> 
> Military teaches you 2 in the chest 1 in the head. In reality it's shoot them until they stop breathing.
> 
> 
> Same for AK rounds.
> 
> 7.26x39 rounds are only devastating 300-400 meters. After that they loose energy drastically.
> 
> 5.56 on the other hand is effective from medium to long ranges.
> 5.56 produce tumbling as soon as it enters body.



5.56 has a much harder time penning modren armour. 
Plus if you are under any cover 5.56 does a lousy job. 
7.62×39 gives you an advantage against enemies under cover or wearing body armor. 



akramishaqkhan said:


> 1) Lighter rounds allowing for greater number that can be carried by a solider
> 2) Goal of round was to critically injure soldiers rather than kill (instantly), so one injured soldier would require a min of 2-3 to take care of them. This would tie up more soldiers in caring for the injured soldier than be actively engaged in battle.


 Think of it like this, if there is a conflict between Pakistan-India or Pakistan-Afghanistan. Soliders would be traveling in M113 or motor transport. You don't have much of a logistics problem because from the factory to the Frontline its a few hundred kilometers. 
You are fighter an enemy in vast desserts and plains in the east, while at far ranges in the mountains and hills of west. 
Wouldn't you want a soldier to have a gun that could shoot at further distances albeit heavier. They could be resupplied easily and redeployed using M113 or any transport.

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## Metal 0-1

Baloch Pakistani said:


> A little off topic but Mk262 Mod1 is one of the most devastating rounds available for 5.56mm. Greentip is notorious for its lack of tumbling effect and zips through its target. There are many comparison videos available of xm193 vs greentip vs mk262 mod1. Even the older xm193 performs better than the greentip. I tried to find mk262 in Pakistan but no luck so far.


Did you tried less than legal market.


bananarepublic said:


> Wouldn't you want a soldier to have a gun that could shoot at further distances albeit heavier.


With time fatigue will kick in.

Why don't give soldiers a platform that shoot .308 and much lighter than G-3 or make G-3 lighter.

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## Metal 0-1

Check out this modified G-3 of Ex Medic in German Army CSAR team 







For the guys wondering it's not longer than standard G-3. The M-LOK rail system covering the barrel and muzzle device makes it looks longer.

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## The Terminator

Bossman said:


> German legislation


Would you like to elaborate a bit?


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## The Terminator

Zarvan said:


> Germany even refused to sell weapons to India. And trust me India can afford them. We can also afford them. We invited every one. They themselves chose not to come.
> 
> Go learn something about CQB and few other stuff. 5.56 for Police and law enforcement in cities is more then enough. What you work on is training of your Police plus giving the scopes and other stuff along with establishing special forces unit and helicopters and other stuff.


5.56 in hands of Police is adequate by all means. And could stand on its own against ak copies. US law enforcement was upgraded from 9mm, shotguns, other handguns to 5.56 Assault Rifles along with better armored vehicles and now people even complain about militarization of Police there. US is notorious in violent crimes and guns for everyone culture, criminals there have easy access to better armaments and body armor. Even then police is very much effective with their 5.56 there. 

Well if you talk about military, it's entirely another topic then.

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## akramishaqkhan

akramishaqkhan said:


> My dear anyone who says they can take a couple of 5.56 rounds and survive has never shot or seen damage from a 5.56. It is a devastating round. Also please remember there is more to a round's efficacy than just its caliber. There is also velocity. Finally range also factors as does arching and tumbling once on target (not to mention personal armor penetration/protection at different ranges comes into play as well). So please avoid making this argument. Ballistics are complex.
> 
> Also the 5.56 round was not a function of increase in female soldiers in the US Army. The primary purpose of this round which is called the Nato spec (5.56Nato), was meant for a few reasons:
> 
> 1) Lighter rounds allowing for greater number that can be carried by a solider
> 2) Goal of round was to critically injure soldiers rather than kill (instantly), so one injured soldier would require a min of 2-3 to take care of them. This would tie up more soldiers in caring for the injured soldier than be actively engaged in battle.
> 
> The above allowed for building some balance to the size differential in number of soldiers between the Eastern and Western block.
> 
> Hope this gives you a bit of perspective on why the Nato Spec was chosen - it was not because more women were being recruited. This decision was made well before that shift in recruitment.
> 
> I think the above has been discussed at detail so I am not adding much to this discourse.
> What is important to discuss on this thread is why PA has not finalized a rifle. G3s are in a bad state. G3s issued to the field are not the pristine ones one gets to see at IDEAS. They are weathered, beaten down and often run through field issues. Also G3s have a massive recoil, and putting accurate high rate of fire at distances is very difficult.
> 
> PA needs to close the loop on their NGIW.



Sorry one additional thing I failed to mention was PA also has Chinese SMG as standard issue, not just a G3. For one the Chinese AK SMG is heavier than its Soviet or Eastern European version. This is a function of Stamped vs Filed Block. Chinese being a filed block. Also though both rounds are 7.62 there is differences that do not allow for easy inter changeability of ammo. A 7.62 round for an AK will cause challenges in a G3.
G3 is less forgiving and both weapons have a difference in muzzle velocity. And last both the current (PK deployed versions) Chinese SMG and the current version of G3 have odd ball attachments / accessories. They are not standardized. Most modern rifles will have a standards approach to things likes, free-floating barrel, muzzle suppressors, retractible stocks, optics, IR/Laser Illuminators and slings. A well integrated modern NGIW will be accretive to the punching power of PK's infantry. PA needs to stop fooling around with this most essential procurement decision.


----------



## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Looks really. Then how come SCAR came first in our trials. To which dominated the trials were SCAR and AK 103. Although several other guns passed. But after six years I give a dam which Rifle comes even CZ and AK-103 I am happy only thing I want is even if CZ comes it comes as whole series from that what I mean is we produce 5.56 CZ and CZ 7.62 X 39 and CZ 7.62 X 51.


no matter how many F#ckin times we show any evidence especially of those who were among the trials. No one said that one rifle WAS THE DA BESHT. Some rifles were good in accuracy like the AR rifle and other rifles were better in other parameters.

But this dheet mitti nature can never be cured.

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## Baloch Pakistani

Metal 0-1 said:


> Did you tried less than legal market.


I don't know which less than legal markets you are talking about but I tried Quetta, Darra adamkhel, Lahore, Rawalpindi but couldn't find it anywhere. Those who said it will be provided on demand also backed off in a couple of days. But they surely know about mk262 mod1.

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## The Terminator

akramishaqkhan said:


> Sorry one additional thing I failed to mention was PA also has Chinese SMG as standard issue, not just a G3. For one the Chinese AK SMG is heavier than its Soviet or Eastern European version. This is a function of Stamped vs Filed Block. Chinese being a filed block. Also though both rounds are 7.62 there is differences that do not allow for easy inter changeability of ammo. A 7.62 round for an AK will cause challenges in a G3.
> G3 is less forgiving and both weapons have a difference in muzzle velocity. And last both the current (PK deployed versions) Chinese SMG and the current version of G3 have odd ball attachments / accessories. They are not standardized. Most modern rifles will have a standards approach to things likes, free-floating barrel, muzzle suppressors, retractible stocks, optics, IR/Laser Illuminators and slings. A well integrated modern NGIW will be accretive to the punching power of PK's infantry. PA needs to stop fooling around with this most essential procurement decision.



The attachments you are talking about can easily be attached to our current G3 rifles by just changing current furniture with some rail mounting systems. G3 and even MP5 has barrel attachment for suppressors. G3 can support fully collapsible stock which even M4 can't able to do so. 

Well its a bit complicated on legacy AK platforms though. But still one can mount all the accessories they require by slapping picatany rail system on it and proprietary scope mountings attachments. But Modern AKs are built from ground to be able to receive enough accessories and modularity in mind.


----------



## Metal 0-1

Baloch Pakistani said:


> they surely know about mk262 mod1.



Samjh rhy ho na

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## khanasifm

akramishaqkhan said:


> Sorry one additional thing I failed to mention was PA also has Chinese SMG as standard issue, not just a G3. For one the Chinese AK SMG is heavier than its Soviet or Eastern European version. This is a function of Stamped vs Filed Block. Chinese being a filed block. Also though both rounds are 7.62 there is differences that do not allow for easy inter changeability of ammo. A 7.62 round for an AK will cause challenges in a G3.
> G3 is less forgiving and both weapons have a difference in muzzle velocity. And last both the current (PK deployed versions) Chinese SMG and the current version of G3 have odd ball attachments / accessories. They are not standardized. Most modern rifles will have a standards approach to things likes, free-floating barrel, muzzle suppressors, retractible stocks, optics, IR/Laser Illuminators and slings. A well integrated modern NGIW will be accretive to the punching power of PK's infantry. PA needs to stop fooling around with this most essential procurement decision.



g3 is 7.62x51 NATO
AK is 7.62x39 

not the same 😉

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## bananarepublic

Metal 0-1 said:


> Did you tried less than legal market.
> 
> With time fatigue will kick in.
> 
> Why don't give soldiers a platform that shoot .308 and much lighter than G-3 or make G-3 lighter.


Thats what I think should happen, 7.62×51 is adequate. Plus there are a slew of modren upgrades for it Mexico and Brazil are using it. Nordic countries, and other euro countries have it. There are also newer guns chambered in 762Nato.
My problem is that nothing is happening neither upgrades for G-3 or procurement of newer gun


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## SSGOPERATOR

6.8mm Remington SPC - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


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## Raja Porus

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1428169291774496773

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## PanzerKiel

Desert Fox 1 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1428169291774496773

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## khanasifm

Mostly pistols and heavy machine guns m2 50 cal


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## Raja Porus

PanzerKiel said:


> View attachment 771099


Taken with Manstein's mobile 
Btw do you know what it's about?


khanasifm said:


> Mostly pistols


I don't think we are going to replace our pistols before rifles. But who knows.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Taken with Manstein's mobile
> Btw do you know what it's about?
> 
> I don't think we are going to replace our pistols before rifles. But who knows.


Canik makes some nice pistols ngl.

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## SSGOPERATOR

Assalam o Alaikum
if it was IDEF then we might also have signed a contract with some other company also. MashAllah Turkish companies are good in the defense industry.
Allahu Alam
Some pics of IDEF '21

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## Maula Jatt

Bump


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## FuturePAF

Is Pakistan considering a 6.8mm caliber Rifle; supposedly similar kinetic performance to a 7.62 but with the range of a 5.56


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## Maula Jatt

IblinI said:


> Off topic but is there any update on Pakistan army's next standard rifle selection?





Sainthood 101 said:


> I don't like the PK-18...
> 
> I feel it's just g-3 with some upgrades, thankfully they haven't properly selected it yet



On topic

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## Great Janjua

FuturePAF said:


> Is Pakistan considering a 6.8mm caliber Rifle; supposedly similar kinetic performance to a 7.62 but with the range of a 5.56


Nope


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## IblinI

FuturePAF said:


> Is Pakistan considering a 6.8mm caliber Rifle; supposedly similar kinetic performance to a 7.62 but with the range of a 5.56


Are you talking about us next gen rifle?


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## FuturePAF

IblinI said:


> Are you talking about us next gen rifle?


Some in a similar caliber to what the US is considering. Effective fire out to a 600-700 meters is becoming more relevant as optics improve.


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## IblinI

FuturePAF said:


> Some in a similar caliber to what the US is considering. Effective fire out to a 600-700 meters is becoming more relevant as optics improve.


That is something out of our reach atm, it required immense skills in material science.


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## Maula Jatt

IblinI said:


> That is something out of our reach atm, it required immense skills in material science.


If thiers anyone who can do this, it's the US


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## FuturePAF

IblinI said:


> That is something out of our reach atm, it required immense skills in material science.


Check out the weapons being tested on the YouTube channel “Task & Purpose”; the selection of the new rifle/machine gun is suppose to happen by the end of this year. So US industry is about to show it has the immense skill to close the gap (out to 800 meters) with the best weapons of the opposition. The machine is suppose to go out to 1200 meters and be almost as light as a rifle.

btw, a ballistic computer build into the scope will also become a standard weapon for at least 2 men out of every 8 man? (US Army or Marine) Squad soon.


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## IblinI

FuturePAF said:


> Check out the weapons being tested on the YouTube channel “Task & Purpose”; the selection of the new rifle/machine gun is suppose to happen by the end of this year. So US industry is about to show it has the immense skill to close the gap (out to 800 meters) with the best weapons of the opposition.
> 
> btw, a ballistic computer build into the scope will also become a standard weapon for at least 2 men out of every 8 man? (US Army or Marine) Squad soon.


I am aware of their latest development, but I am more interested in the new bullet, let's see how it turns out.

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## Muhammad Omar

5 years 
500 pages 
Many trials 

And yet we haven't seen a single rifle procurement 😐😐


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## SSGOPERATOR

Muhammad Omar said:


> 5 years
> 500 pages
> Many trials
> 
> And yet we haven't seen a single rifle procurement 😐😐


Assalam o Alaikum
InshaAllah iss saal ke akhir tk hojayega

BTW I have heard IMF is giving loans to Pakistan now.


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## Zarvan

SSGOPERATOR said:


> Assalam o Alaikum
> InshaAllah iss saal ke akhir tk hojayega
> 
> BTW I have heard IMF is giving loans to Pakistan now.


You are making a guess or you have some news ? Because as of now I haven't heard any such development. We talked with SCAR but no deal was reached. And even that is few years old news now. So do you have any news ?


SSGOPERATOR said:


> Assalam o Alaikum
> if it was IDEF then we might also have signed a contract with some other company also. MashAllah Turkish companies are good in the defense industry.
> Allahu Alam
> Some pics of IDEF '21
> View attachment 771142
> View attachment 771143
> View attachment 771144


Turkish Rifle did good in trials. But no decision by our leadership. And I have very few hopes when it comes to assault rifles


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## SSGOPERATOR

Zarvan said:


> You are making a guess or you have some news ? Because as of now I haven't heard any such development. We talked with SCAR but no deal was reached. And even that is few years old news now. So do you have any news ?


Pta nahi meney aesa hii kuch kahin suna/parha tha. Exact yaad nahi kahan pr.

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## Muhammad Omar

SSGOPERATOR said:


> Assalam o Alaikum
> InshaAllah iss saal ke akhir tk hojayega
> 
> BTW I have heard IMF is giving loans to Pakistan now.



Tag me when we finally order new rifles


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## SSGOPERATOR

Muhammad Omar said:


> Tag me when we finally order new rifles


InshaAllah
But click on watch on this thread and you will get all notifications from this thread.
BTW I think AlhamdUllilah we have signed some contracts, I think maybe at IDEF(at least with Canik)


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## Zarvan

SSGOPERATOR said:


> InshaAllah
> But click on watch on this thread and you will get all notifications from this thread.
> BTW I think AlhamdUllilah we have signed some contracts, I think maybe at IDEF(at least with Canik)


Canik only makes handguns. I hope you are right. But personally I doubt we would have any Rifle deal in near or even distant future


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## SSGOPERATOR

Zarvan said:


> Canik only makes handguns. I hope you are right. But personally I doubt we would have any Rifle deal in near or even distant future


Assalam o Alaikum
No Sir, what I meant was that Canik makes only handguns and machine guns but I don't think they will go for handguns before Rifles/Carbines so InshaAllah PA might have some deal in place, or at least they are looking for one.
ALLAHU ALAM


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## Vapnope

I see AK 103 with ssg, PKM and Azb (DMR)?


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## Raja Porus

Vapnope said:


> View attachment 777615
> 
> I see AK 103 with ssg, PKM and Azb (DMR)?


Weapons, except for snipers, are always provided by the host nation (Azerbaijan).
Btw PKM is the most unfavorable MG for Spec ops, considering its length and weight.


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## Sifar zero

Vapnope said:


> View attachment 777615
> 
> I see AK 103 with ssg, PKM and Azb (DMR)?


Where is Azb?


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## Zarvan

Vapnope said:


> View attachment 777615
> 
> I see AK 103 with ssg, PKM and Azb (DMR)?


During these kind of exercises our forces often use equipment of the host country. These guns are not of SSG. They belong to Azerbaijan but our forces would use them during exercise.


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## Raja Porus

Sifar zero said:


> Where is Azb?


Last row


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## iLION12345_1

I don’t see Azb either. That’s some other rifle, also belongs to the Azeri forces. 
It’s interesting to note that the Turkish SF brought their own weapons, maybe because they’re deployed there, while Pakistani forces are just visiting for the exercises. However as others have said above, All the weapons are in fact from the host country and not the visiting country.


Desert Fox 1 said:


> Last row

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## Waiting

Vapnope said:


> View attachment 777615
> 
> I see AK 103 with ssg, PKM and Azb (DMR)?


These are 5.45 x 39, I think, AK 103 is 7.62 x 39 mm.


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## iLION12345_1

Waiting said:


> These are 5.45 x 39, I think, AK 103 is 7.62 x 39 mm.


AK74M.


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## Vapnope

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Weapons, except for snipers, are always provided by the host nation (Azerbaijan).
> Btw PKM is the most unfavorable MG for Spec ops, considering its length and weight.


Turks are using their own guns.


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## iLION12345_1

Vapnope said:


> Turks are using their own guns.


That’s because they are either deployed there or are there for longer So they brought their own gear, Turkey-Azerbaijan have a lot more military Co-operation. 
When the Turkish SF were training Pakistan with ZATU they were using Pakistani gear and guns. The SSG in this case is definitely using Azeri equipment.

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## Tango101

iLION12345_1 said:


> I don’t see Azb either. That’s some other rifle


Turkish JNG-90.

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## iLION12345_1

Tango101 said:


> Turkish JNG-90.


Yep, that’s the one, thank you. PA doesn’t have those, nor do they use 5.45 caliber (The guns are AK74M and not the AK103M that Pakistan recently purchased for FC) Hence the guns are not Pakistani But Azeri.

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## SSGOPERATOR

iLION12345_1 said:


> That’s because they are either deployed there or are there for longer So they brought their own gear, Turkey-Azerbaijan have a lot more military Co-operation.
> When the Turkish SF were training Pakistan with ZATU they were using Pakistani gear and guns. The SSG in this case is definitely using Azeri equipment.


Training SSG or training with SSG?


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## iLION12345_1

SSGOPERATOR said:


> Training SSG or training with SSG?


Training with. No foreign SFs currently train the SSG, I believe US has done so in the past, but i may even be wrong about that, Turkey certainly has never done so. It’s never really been needed for the SSG. 
If anything SSG is in a position where it is training SFs from a few other countries in the ME and Africa (Nigeria and Palestine come to mind, among others).

SSG only trains _*with*_ other SFs, which is always a learning experience for both sides given everyone has their unique way of training and unique experiences, SSG has some of the most experience in COIN and mountain warfare Ops, they’ve trained with basically everyone at this point, The best of the US, British, NATO, Russian, Chinese, Turkish And so on.

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## SSGOPERATOR

iLION12345_1 said:


> Training with. No foreign SFs currently train the SSG, I believe US has done so in the past, but i may even be wrong about that, Turkey certainly has never done so. It’s never really been needed for the SSG.
> If anything SSG is in a position where it is training SFs from a few other countries in the ME and Africa (Nigeria and Palestine come to mind, among others).
> 
> SSG only trains _*with*_ other SFs, which is always a learning experience for both sides given everyone has their unique way of training and unique experiences, SSG has some of the most experience in COIN and mountain warfare Ops, they’ve trained with basically everyone at this point, The best of the US, British, NATO, Russian, Chinese, Turkish And so on.


@PanzerKiel why so sad? is something wrong?

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## The Terminator

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Taken with Manstein's mobile
> Btw do you know what it's about?
> 
> I don't think we are going to replace our pistols before rifles. But who knows.


Those officers in decision making positions don't even use rifles, so you may expect newer modern pistols in our army even before standard rifle replacement. And pistols would be relatively in low volume and would cost less $$ to acquire as compared to standard issue rifles 😜


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## The Terminator

FuturePAF said:


> Is Pakistan considering a 6.8mm caliber Rifle; supposedly similar kinetic performance to a 7.62 but with the range of a 5.56


What are you talking about? 7.62 NATO has more effective range than 5.56 NATO. The only issue with 7.62 is its bulky and not suitable for fully automatic fire. 
Newer US prototype rifles and ammo are worth considering because it would take at least 2 or 3 decades more to replace the standard rifles whatever PAK Army decides to acquire today. So any of the standard rifle procurement must meet the requirements of future warfare at least till 2050s.

I might be wrong but I expect modern major militaries to be equipped with thermal sights replacing NVGs, Sophisticated fire control systems mounted on the rifles replacing legacy optics, body armor capable of stopping at least 7.62x51 rounds reliably and some sort of data linked helmet mounted IBMS systems by 2030s.

By then our beloved rifles SCAR-H or AK-103 mounted with red dot or 4x ACOG sights with personal radios and GPS equipped soldiers wouldn't stand a chance against the militaries equiped with aforementioned equipment. Their average soldier would have the capability of a sniper, corner-shot, thermal vision, highly networked, impenetrable body armor by regular rifle rounds. It would require an anti material rifle round or an RPG to neutralize that kind of threat from a distance. That soldier would be equivalent to a walking infantry fighting vehicle of this day.

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## SSGOPERATOR

The Terminator said:


> Those officers in decision making positions don't even use rifles, so you may expect newer modern pistols in our army even before standard rifle replacement. And pistols would be relatively in low volume and would cost less $$ to acquire as compared to standard issue rifles 😜


BTW i am not sure if Canik is better than Glock so SSG might not change their pistols.


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## The Terminator

Sainthood 101 said:


> If thiers anyone who can do this, it's the US


No the Russians, Chinese, French, Germans, UK, Israel a lot of countries are capable enough to do it. Apart from Turkey there isn't any Muslim nation though which is capable enough to do this kind of R&D effectively

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## SSGOPERATOR

The Terminator said:


> What are you talking about? 7.62 NATO has more effective range than 5.56 NATO. The only issue with 7.62 is its bulky and not suitable for fully automatic fire.
> Newer US prototype rifles and ammo are worth considering because it would take at least 2 or 3 decades more to replace the standard rifles whatever PAK Army decides to acquire today. So any of the standard rifle procurement must meet the requirements of future warfare at least till 2050s.
> 
> I might be wrong but I expect modern major militaries to be equipped with thermal sights replacing NVGs, Sophisticated fire control systems mounted on the rifles replacing legacy optics, body armor capable of stopping at least 7.62x51 rounds reliably and some sort of data linked helmet mounted IBMS systems by 2030s.
> 
> By then our beloved rifles SCAR-H or AK-103 mounted with red dot or 4x ACOG sights with personal radios and GPS equipped soldiers wouldn't stand a chance against the militaries equiped with aforementioned equipment. Their average soldier would have the capability of a sniper, corner-shot, thermal vision, highly networked, impenetrable body armor by regular rifle rounds. It would require an anti material rifle round or an RPG to neutralize that kind of threat from a distance. That soldier would be equivalent to a walking infantry fighting vehicle of this day.


and InshaAllah then those soldiers will evacuate Afghanistan with their heads down(I am just being sarcastic don't take it personally. Your ideas are great.)


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## FuturePAF

The Terminator said:


> What are you talking about? 7.62 NATO has more effective range than 5.56 NATO. The only issue with 7.62 is its bulky and not suitable for fully automatic fire.
> Newer US prototype rifles and ammo are worth considering because it would take at least 2 or 3 decades more to replace the standard rifles whatever PAK Army decides to acquire today. So any of the standard rifle procurement must meet the requirements of future warfare at least till 2050s.
> 
> I might be wrong but I expect modern major militaries to be equipped with thermal sights replacing NVGs, Sophisticated fire control systems mounted on the rifles replacing legacy optics, body armor capable of stopping at least 7.62x51 rounds reliably and some sort of data linked helmet mounted IBMS systems by 2030s.
> 
> By then our beloved rifles SCAR-H or AK-103 mounted with red dot or 4x ACOG sights with personal radios and GPS equipped soldiers wouldn't stand a chance against the militaries equiped with aforementioned equipment. Their average soldier would have the capability of a sniper, corner-shot, thermal vision, highly networked, impenetrable body armor by regular rifle rounds. It would require an anti material rifle round or an RPG to neutralize that kind of threat from a distance. That soldier would be equivalent to a walking infantry fighting vehicle of this day.



See the YouTube channel “Task&purpose”. The US is considering 6.8mm rounds; said to have the stopping power of the 7.62 but closer to the weight of the 5.56mm. Ranges are out to 800 meters effective for rifles with the use of FCS built into scopes and the use of suppressors to minimize acoustic and IR signatures from the muzzle flashes. The US is expected to pick its preferred rifle by the end of the year. I’m sure the PA is watching to see the trend and will ultimately pick a competitive rifle it can have in services for at least a generation or two


----------



## The Terminator

iLION12345_1 said:


> Training with. No foreign SFs currently train the SSG, I believe US has done so in the past, but i may even be wrong about that, Turkey certainly has never done so. It’s never really been needed for the SSG.
> If anything SSG is in a position where it is training SFs from a few other countries in the ME and Africa (Nigeria and Palestine come to mind, among others).
> 
> SSG only trains _*with*_ other SFs, which is always a learning experience for both sides given everyone has their unique way of training and unique experiences, SSG has some of the most experience in COIN and mountain warfare Ops, they’ve trained with basically everyone at this point, The best of the US, British, NATO, Russian, Chinese, Turkish And so on.


Like you said training *with. *Training with doesn't mean a lot except from mocking some standard CQB exercises and exchanging gear with other SFs. If your country is perfectly aligned with the other one or a close ally then that's entirely another ball game of cooperation. But even then there are some tactics of the top tier SFs that they don't really share with best of their allies too for example, the true door breaching tactics of top tier British and US SFs are unknown to even between themselves.

SF training is an art you learn by sweating in the training camps and bleeding in the battlefields, and by creating the best possible institutional training regimes.


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## SSGOPERATOR

The Terminator said:


> Like you said training *with. *Training with doesn't mean a lot except from mocking some standard CQB exercises and exchanging gear with other SFs. If your country is perfectly aligned with the other one or a close ally then that's entirely another ball game of cooperation. But even then there are some tactics of the top tier SFs that they don't really share with best of their allies too for example, the true door breaching tactics of top tier British and US SFs are unknown to even between themselves.
> 
> SF training is an art you learn by sweating in the training camps and bleeding in the battlefields, and by creating the best possible institutional training regimes.


You're right and wrong at the same time. Yes not everything is shared but SSG commandos whom I asked told me that they benefit us and not just "mocking some standard CQB exercises and exchanging gear" happens but also a lot of other things including concepts, experiences, etc. are shared.


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## The Terminator

SSGOPERATOR said:


> and InshaAllah then those soldiers will evacuate Afghanistan with their heads down(I am just being sarcastic don't take it personally. Your ideas are great.)


Yeah you are right bro. The cold Era weapons can effectively put holes in your body till today. Even our military utilizes post upgraded WW2 weapons too. But time is changing fast due to the advent of semiconductor microchips. Human is no longer the most genius entity in this world today. AI is taking over everything. AI can learn centuries of the brilliance of a group of top scientists in a matter of hours. 

Couple of decades ago we were amused by mobile devices which could call and send text messages. Now we have the entire world inside our pocket. That's the real issue. 

Even the determination and courage of Imaan or afghan Taliban can't do that much against future AI systems and semiconductor tech unless you have means to disable or hack it which makes you roughly near peer to them in some sense.
Afghans would never have won without AKs, RPGs, Mortar, Artillery rounds, Explosives, stinger missiles etc. They still had most of the items required to really hurt their adversaries just short of air support and modern drone tech. That's why it costed them a grind of 20 years to win the war of attrition.

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## Raja Porus

The Terminator said:


> Those officers in decision making positions don't even use rifles, so you may expect newer modern pistols in our army even before standard rifle replacement.


Lolz our chiefs atleast upto Kiyani would have used G3 as a YO, others at a bit higher rank.

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## The Terminator

SSGOPERATOR said:


> You're right and wrong at the same time. Yes not everything is shared but SSG commandos whom I asked told me that they benefit us and not just "mocking some standard CQB exercises and exchanging gear" happens but also a lot of other things including concepts, experiences, etc. are shared.


But only to the closest allies. You can't expect a tier one US SF officer sharing his real experiences in the field with SSGs. China, Turkey etc. yes they are our natural allies.

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## SSGOPERATOR

The Terminator said:


> But only to the closest allies. You can't expect a tier one US SF officer sharing his real experiences in the field with SSGs. China, Turkey etc. yes they are our natural allies.


Yup exactly. As much as I am told by SSG is that their relationships aren't that good with US(doesn't mean they are completely broken) but cooperation is still done with SAS.


Desert Fox 1 said:


> Lolz our chiefs atleast upto Kiyani would have used G3 as a YO, others at a bit higher rank.


Kayani even held an M4 in his hands when he went to SSG HQ. Lol

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## The Terminator

FuturePAF said:


> See the YouTube channel “Task&purpose”. The US is considering 6.8mm rounds; said to have the stopping power of the 7.62 but closer to the weight of the 5.56mm. Ranges are out to 800 meters effective for rifles with the use of FCS built into scopes and the use of suppressors to minimize acoustic and IR signatures from the muzzle flashes. The US is expected to pick its preferred rifle by the end of the year. I’m sure the PA is watching to see the trend and will ultimately pick a competitive rifle it can have in services for at least a generation or two


That's true US Army is currently suffering from near peer syndrome.

Decades wasted by US on fake war on terror provided ample time to countries like China, Russia etc to catchup with them as far as standard issue equipment is concerned.

NVGs alongwith laser/IR strobes mounted on rifles against contemporary military is like holding a flare in the middle of a desert.
That's why US military is scrambling to regain its qualitative edge against its adversaries. But IMHO it would be a uphill task for them.
As far as 3rd world countries like ourselves are concerned, we would really be screwed if we failed to consider those advancements while procuring our future weaponry. SCAR or AK is already obsolete by those standards and we don't have the economy of Qatar or tech base of Turkey to correct our presently made mistakes in the future.
G3 is as good as SCAR when considering putting holes into your enemies. We don't need the Gucci guns to do the similar job albeit more conveniently and better creature comfort. Doesn't justify pouring hundreds of millions of precious foreign exchange which we don't have much right now.

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## FuturePAF

The Terminator said:


> That's true US Army is currently suffering from near peer syndrome.
> 
> Decades wasted by US on fake war on terror provided ample time to countries like China, Russia etc to catchup with them as far as standard issue equipment is concerned.
> 
> NVGs alongwith laser/IR strobes mounted on rifles against contemporary military is like holding a flare in the middle of a desert.
> That's why US military is scrambling to regain its qualitative edge against its adversaries. But IMHO it would be a uphill task for them.
> As far as 3rd world countries like ourselves are concerned, we would really be screwed if we failed to consider those advancements while procuring our future weaponry. SCAR or AK is already obsolete by those standards and we don't have the economy of Qatar or tech base of Turkey to correct our presently made mistakes in the future.
> G3 is as good as SCAR when considering putting holes into your enemies. We don't need the Gucci guns to do the similar job.



Considering our budget, but also defensive posture, If our SSG and similar commando forces are properly equipped along with an elite portion of the Army, they could be used with a good strategy to allow other elements of national power to keep the nation from the threat of war with larger nations. A world class rifle is therefore very important, at least for the frontline troops.

So when picking a rifle, we don’t have to go full Gucci across the force, but should procure based on a doctrine that fits into a strategy that adequately allows us to defending ourselves.


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## SSGOPERATOR

FuturePAF said:


> Considering our budget, but also defensive posture, If our SSG and similar commando forces are properly equipped along with an elite portion of the Army, they could be used with a good strategy to allow other elements of national power to keep the nation from the threat of war with larger nations. A world class rifle is therefore very important, at least for the frontline troops.
> 
> So when picking a rifle, we don’t have to go full Gucci across the force, but should procure based on a doctrine that fits into a strategy that adequately allows us to defending ourselves.


@Reichmarshal you know something?


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## The Terminator

Muhammad Omar said:


> 5 years
> 500 pages
> Many trials
> 
> And yet we haven't seen a single rifle procurement 😐😐


AK 103 acquired in small numbers. Rest is ambiguous. Don't know why is their any licensing issue with Russia for AK 103

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## SSGOPERATOR

The Terminator said:


> AK 103 acquired in small numbers. Rest is ambiguous. Don't know why is their any licensing issue with Russia for AK 103


How long when everyone will have it in their hands?


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## Basel

IblinI said:


> That is something out of our reach atm, it required immense skills in material science.



There are private companies specially in US who are willing to sell 6.8mm upgrade package to existing ARs.

Problem is that US may not allow it for Pakistan.


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## The Terminator

SSGOPERATOR said:


> Yup exactly. As much as I am told by SSG is that their relationships aren't that good with US(doesn't mean they are completely broken) but cooperation is still done with SAS.
> 
> Kayani even held an M4 in his hands when he went to SSG HQ. Lol


I agree. The first and foremost objective of any military joint training or exercise is that to obtain as much intra operability amongst the participating forces as possible, obviously apart from gaining experience from the other side as well. That's why closest allies try to procure similar weapon systems to enhance their intra operability as well. They speak different languages but they try to understand each other as much that they can somehow perform joint operations at some time in future. 

I am not seeing US or any of the NATO SF doing joint Ops with SSG in foreseeable future unless it's 100% purely in the interest of the US and we act as their pawns only. On the other hand Joint Ops with Chinese, local militias (Mujahideen), Turks are quite possible as our national interests, for now, converge mostly. Heck even joint Ops with Iranians are more probable than say with French or US SFs unless we are serving them like hired mercenaries.

That's why you would find the countries that are naturally aligned with your's actively cooperating in the field of defense equipment and training.

Anatolian Eagle is win win exercise for all. Qatari Rafales are serving Turks and Pakistanis alike as its most advanced platform that their respective adversaries currently operate. You all know here about IAF better than me. Greece is getting Rafales from France at subsidized prices. Now Qatar has permanently deployed some of its Rafale fighters in Turkey for both the airforce to test their every single capability in combat exercises.

On the other hand Royal Saudi Airforce conducted military exercises with Greece Air force. Isn't it hilarious for you? What's the common ground between both of theose countries apart from their centuries old hatred towards Turkey.


FuturePAF said:


> Considering our budget, but also defensive posture, If our SSG and similar commando forces are properly equipped along with an elite portion of the Army, they could be used with a good strategy to allow other elements of national power to keep the nation from the threat of war with larger nations. A world class rifle is therefore very important, at least for the frontline troops.
> 
> So when picking a rifle, we don’t have to go full Gucci across the force, but should procure based on a doctrine that fits into a strategy that adequately allows us to defending ourselves.


Aren't we already doing the same! SSG is well equipped, SSG(N) and SSW even lead in that matter. Then comes the LCB which are decently equipped. And now every infantry unit has some sort of their own light commando assets equipped with all necessary equipments and snipers of their own.

I myself watched them rehearsing them and taking positions near the bushes and other concealment, and developing their own tactics within their area of responsibility. Their type 56 had some sort of pictanny rail system on upper receiver and US made red dot mounted on top of that. They were even carrying a sniper rifle which looked to be of LSR category. Obviously they were also equipped with NVGs but wouldn't use them in broad daylight. They belonged to regular infantry unit. 

We don't need FN SCAR or M416s to kill our arch enemies. It would require another at least 5 or 6 years for them to equip themselves with AK-12. Even that isn't a earth shattering tech rifle which we can't face them with. 

Apart from them against any 1st world major force like US, even SCAR-H would be of no use in future if they succeeded to pull off what they are planning to do now. Their working prototypes are already in the field and it isn't anymore the question of if they would be able to implement their program, the real question is when. And all Pakistanis know we aren't in their good books now for sure. 

Cold War 2.0 is already officially initiated and we are the next battlefield for them. We wouldn't be able to stop those world super power competitors from trampling on our soil with hazrat sahib's beloved SCAR in the future. It doesn't make any bigger hole than old rusty G3, neither it provides any advantage in ammo carrying capacity of the soldier nor the Ballistics. AK103 hands down is the most reliable platform of them all.

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## FuturePAF

The Terminator said:


> I agree. The first and foremost objective of any military joint training or exercise is that to obtain as much intra operability amongst the participating forces as possible, obviously apart from gaining experience from the other side as well. That's why closest allies try to procure similar weapon systems to enhance their intra operability as well. They speak different languages but they try to understand each other as much that they can somehow perform joint operations at some time in future.
> 
> I am not seeing US or any of the NATO SF doing joint Ops with SSG in foreseeable future unless it's 100% purely in the interest of the US and we act as their pawns only. On the other hand Joint Ops with Chinese, local militias (Mujahideen), Turks are quite possible as our national interests, for now, converge mostly. Heck even joint Ops with Iranians are more probable than say with French or US SFs unless we are serving them like hired mercenaries.
> 
> That's why you would find the countries that are naturally aligned with your's actively cooperating in the field of defense equipment and training.
> 
> Anatolian Eagle is win win exercise for all. Qatari Rafales are serving Turks and Pakistanis alike as its most advanced platform that their respective adversaries currently operate. You all know here about IAF better than me. Greece is getting Rafales from France at subsidized prices. Now Qatar has permanently deployed some of its Rafale fighters in Turkey for both the airforce to test their every single capability in combat exercises.
> 
> On the other hand Royal Saudi Airforce conducted military exercises with Greece Air force. Isn't it hilarious for you? What's the common ground between both of theose countries apart from their centuries old hatred towards Turkey.
> Aren't we already doing the same! SSG is well equipped, SSG(N) and SSW even lead in that matter. Then comes the LCB which are decently equipped. And now every infantry unit has some sort of their own light commando assets equipped with all necessary equipments and snipers of their own.
> 
> I myself watched them rehearsing them and taking positions near the bushes and other concealment, and developing their own tactics within their area of responsibility. Their type 56 had some sort of pictanny rail system on upper receiver and US made red dot mounted on top of that. They were even carrying a sniper rifle which looked to be of LSR category. Obviously they were also equipped with NVGs but wouldn't use them in broad daylight. They belonged to regular infantry unit.
> 
> We don't need FN SCAR or M416s to kill our arch enemies. It would require another at least 5 or 6 years for them to equip themselves with AK-12. Even that isn't a earth shattering tech rifle which we can't face them with.
> 
> Apart from them against any 1st world major force like US, even SCAR-H would be of no use in future if they succeeded to pull off what they are planning to do now. Their working prototypes are already in the field and it isn't anymore the question of if they would be able to implement their program, the real question is when. And all Pakistanis know we aren't in their good books now for sure.
> 
> Cold War 2.0 is already officially initiated and we are the next battlefield for them. We wouldn't be able to stop those world super power competitors from trampling on our soil with hazrat sahib's beloved SCAR in the future. It doesn't make any bigger hole than old rusty G3, neither it provides any advantage in ammo carrying capacity of the soldier nor the Ballistics. AK103 hands down is the most reliable platform of them all.



I’m sure Russian industry will make an AK rifle soon that will match the American 6.8 mm with similar effective range, that gets chosen in the end. We should wait for that in my opinion. Best of reliability and performance.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Abhi tak rifle nai select hoi?


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## The Terminator

Within its effective range, AK reigns Supreme over all other 5.56 rifles. But considering our eastern border with India ie hilly mountainous LOC, plain lands of Punjab and desert of Southern Punjab and Sindh. All of those topographical areas provide ample opportunity for medium to long range engagements on border areas. That's the reason that 7.62x51 is the necessity of PAK Army. That's why AK103 isn't going to be standard issue rifle for those on border patrol but it would always be a mix of shorter caliber and bigger caliber with extended range. 

Our ancestors made a remarkable decision to equip our forces with, by then, the best weapon systems in the world provided by the best manufacturer the H&K. With all their arrogance, still the US, UK and their allies recognize the firepower and utility of the 7.62x51 round. They learned the hard way when their Gucci guns weren't able to do anything against thick medieval style mud walls in Afghanistan and Iraq too. 

We have the world's best standard issue calibre in terms of range and penetration in shape of H&K G3. We have one of the best bullets spitting machine in single barrel category ie H&K MG3 which itself has a pedigree of legendary MG34 and MG42s, the most feared bullet spitting weapon of WW2. 
God bless those who took the decision half a century ago to equip Pakistani military with those legendary platforms. That's the only reason why India would never gain small arms firepower superiority against us at least for more than a decade in the future too. 

AK103 is a natural choice to fill up the role of "SMG" in PAK Army. But for standard issue 7.62x51 or similar caliber rifle, IMHO we can still wait for a few years more to find a worthy replacement. Some sort of 6.5mm creedmoor etc. Is very much doable. 6.5 Creedmoor is similar in dimensions as 7.62x51 but superior in ballistics which can share the same magazine box and platform by changing the barrel of the weapon. 6.5mm is equally effective in Assault rifles, light machine guns and sniper rifles. That's the choice of US SF too.

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## The Terminator

FuturePAF said:


> I’m sure Russian industry will make an AK rifle soon that will match the American 6.8 mm with similar effective range, that gets chosen in the end. We should wait for that in my opinion. Best of reliability and performance.


6.5mm Creedmoor is readily available even in the civilian markets. Anything new like 6.8mm tech would take time to reach Pakistan due to It's unique metallurgy, high chamber pressure, high tech barrels, and recoil mitigation systems. This year US would decide their ammo and if Trump were still be on the Presidential seat, he would have immediately shove the US selected ammo down the throats of its EU allies in the name of freedom and common logistics supplies. Then it's tech would have reached Pakistan in express pace.

But still i have hope from Turkey, which is currently the key for us to the western tech along with Italy and Spain too are our gateway to the west. I still believe Germany could help us out too if we offer them any lucrative deal.

All Army has to do is to play smart here like what PAF did when it was under immense pressure of embargoes and Indian disinformation labs battering Pakistan the hardest and India rolling out massive contracts in the market in order to leave Pakistan high and dry in search of tech support during the crucial phase of JF-17 program. Even then what PAF managed to pull off is nothing less than stunning.

PAK Army's free and easy lunch time has been long over when US would provide their surplus weapons under the cover of coalition support fund to them. Apart from just buying pistols, now Army would have to engage 1st world's private sector companies to supply them the material and tech overtly or covertly it doesn't make any difference how.


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## Reichmarshal

SSGOPERATOR said:


> @Reichmarshal you know something?


I don't think that the man him self knows whats he talking about

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## Zarvan

I really wish one day Pakistani soldiers will have this kind of equipment on their Assault Rifles also. This is what is needed by every Pakistani soldier.

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## Zarvan

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1446380570913746969
An Indian making this claim. 

@PanzerKiel ???

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## Great Janjua

The hair on my head has turned white but no gun selection. What kind of Sorcercy is this.

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## Raja Porus

Zarvan said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1446380570913746969
> An Indian making this claim.
> 
> @PanzerKiel ???


 Though the source is least credible still
An MoU had already been already signed in 2016/17 I guess.


Desert Fox 1 said:


> My personal assessment is that we will go for the Bren. It can be easily incorporated into the army, are cheaper, have better specs, use the same caliber, and the ToT will not be an issue, in fact as an MoU has already been signed bw pof and CZ according to which we will slowly shift from light assembly to complete production of the weapon. Most importantly it looks good which the people usually want and the army too as it would give a modern touch. A beautiful rifle might prove to be a poor man's SCAR


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## Moon

I don't know jack about guns, but NORINCO CS/LR17/18 seem like a pretty good option, it's based on the FN-SCAR. Maybe PA is waiting for the PLA to adopt it and hopefully get a good deal?


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## Tomcats

Zarvan said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1446380570913746969
> An Indian making this claim.
> 
> @PanzerKiel ???


Well this may interest you, though no credence to the claim **yet**


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1445790497432350720

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## Zarvan

Tomcats said:


> Well this may interest you, though no credence to the claim **yet**
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1445790497432350720


This is exactly what is his claim based on


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## retaxis

maybe likely another chinese rifle (more likely then not)

QBZ 191 most likely?


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## mingle

Zarvan said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1446380570913746969
> An Indian making this claim.
> 
> @PanzerKiel ???


Guy is biggest fake new peddler don't take him seriously

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## Zarvan

mingle said:


> Guy is biggest fake new peddler don't take him seriously


His news is based on the deal we signed with Czech Republic two days ago. Check the above posts you would see the deal.


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## mingle

Zarvan said:


> His news is based on the deal we signed with Czech Republic two days ago. Check the above posts you would see the deal.


He is just guessing nothing more

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## Great Janjua

The Czech defence minister was present this could mean something substantial was discussed.

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## Mohammad huzaifa kiani

this could be a good replacement for g3

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## blain2

504 pages later, has the decision been made?  Or should I return after another 500 pages?

For reference sake, the decision to go with G-3 was made in ~1963. That should give an indication about the time and pace of funding with which the army moves to replace its existing stocks of battle rifles.


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## iLION12345_1

blain2 said:


> 504 pages later, has the decision been made?  Or should I return after another 500 pages?
> 
> For reference sake, the decision to go with G-3 was made in ~1963. That should give an indication about the time and pace of funding with which the army moves to replace its existing stocks of battle rifles.


To be completely honest, the decision we needed was already made, the people in this thread are waiting for the wrong thing. I’m not sure how no one else has noticed such an obvious thing.

The way I see it, we won’t be seeing a G3 replacement, because the AK series has replaced the G3 as the standard weapon of the PA, and im glad it has. The 7.62x51 calibre of the G3 is highly unsuited for normal combat in the hands of a normal soldier. The calibre is way too big, and PA thankfully realized this in the trials.

That’s why there is absolutely no urgency to replace the G3. On the other side, PA has already started modernizing it’s AKs. Wether it be modernizing older ones with new polymer furniture, simply adding optics, grips and other attachments, or purchasing AK-103Ms (soon to come in my opinion).

The most we will see as a G3 replacement is a specialized rifle that may be issued to some soldiers in dedicated “rifleman” roles. This rifle may be purchased in small numbers. Apart from this, we will not see any new large-scale firearm induction into the PA. It simply doesn’t make sense to equip every soldier with a 7.62x51 calibre rifle due to its high recoil And the weight of the associated rifle. No other military uses it as a standard calibre for a reason.

Bottom line Is; G3 has been replaced by the AK series, and said AK series is already being modernized and we can visibly see that. G3 will be retired sooner or later, it may not get its own replacement at all, at most a small scale replacement for specialized roles, but that’s about it. And this is a *good thing.*

Maybe this thread should be closed now, and we can move the entirety of the small Arms discussion of PA to another Thread. *PAs standard rifles (G3 and Type 56-I) have already been replaced.*


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## Zarvan

iLION12345_1 said:


> To be completely honest, the decision we needed was already made, the people in this thread are waiting for the wrong thing. I’m not sure how no one else has noticed such an obvious thing.
> 
> The way I see it, we won’t be seeing a G3 replacement, because the AK series has replaced the G3 as the standard weapon of the PA, and im glad it has. The 7.62x51 calibre of the G3 is highly unsuited for normal combat in the hands of a normal soldier. The calibre is way too big, and PA thankfully realized this in the trials.
> 
> That’s why there is absolutely no urgency to replace the G3. On the other side, PA has already started modernizing it’s AKs. Wether it be modernizing older ones with new polymer furniture, simply adding optics, grips and other attachments, or purchasing AK-103Ms (soon to come in my opinion).
> 
> The most we will see as a G3 replacement is a specialized rifle that may be issued to some soldiers in dedicated “rifleman” roles. This rifle may be purchased in small numbers. Apart from this, we will not see any new large-scale firearm induction into the PA. It simply doesn’t make sense to equip every soldier with a 7.62x51 calibre rifle due to its high recoil And the weight of the associated rifle. No other military uses it as a standard calibre for a reason.
> 
> Bottom line Is; G3 has been replaced by the AK series, and said AK series is already being modernized and we can visibly see that. G3 will be retired sooner or later, it may not get its own replacement at all, at most a small scale replacement for specialized roles, but that’s about it. And this is a *good thing.*
> 
> Maybe this thread should be closed now, and we can move the entirety of the small Arms discussion of PA to another Thread. *PAs standard rifles (G3 and Type 56-I) have already been replaced.*


When it comes to Pakistan never say never. They can continue to use G3 and Type 56 for years and you can all of a sudden hear about some Rifle deal. This is the way it has been. I myself doesn't see a deal coming but if you look at Czech Republic and their defence industry the only main weapon they produce and we can be interested in are assault rifles so this latest deal we would have to wait to know what it's actually about. Because statement is vague


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## iLION12345_1

Zarvan said:


> When it comes to Pakistan never say never. They can continue to use G3 and Type 56 for years and you can all of a sudden hear about some Rifle deal. This is the way it has been. I myself doesn't see a deal coming but if you look at Czech Republic and their defence industry the only main weapon they produce and we can be interested in are assault rifles so this latest deal we would have to wait to know what it's actually about. Because statement is vague


The G3 is in very limited use already, and new AKs are constantly coming in. I don’t think we will be seeing G3 for much longer. We‘re buying new AKs for a reason, because we’re going to keep using them (this includes new Type 56-II rifles.)


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## ali_raza

iLION12345_1 said:


> The G3 is in very limited use already, and new AKs are constantly coming in. I don’t think we will be seeing G3 for much longer. We‘re buying new AKs for a reason, because we’re going to keep using them (this includes new Type 56-II rifles.)


u mean the one we got 100$ a pop 
sweet honey thts rifle


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## Keysersoze

Moon said:


> I don't know jack about guns, but NORINCO CS/LR17/18 seem like a pretty good option, it's based on the FN-SCAR. Maybe PA is waiting for the PLA to adopt it and hopefully get a good deal?


Ok well as a Infantryman I'll Say these are the factors that will need to be considered. in no particular order;

Weight of the weapon--The heavier weapons are more tiring to carry and add to the overall burden of the solder.
Accuracy of the weapon--If you can't hit anything whats the point
Ammo-- Lighter ammo or heavier ammo. Lighter ammo (5-56 or similar) has less stopping power but you can carry more (very important) and it has lighter recoil improving accuracy. Heavier ammo has better range and stopping power. Personally more ammo is important to me. It's amazing how fast you can blow through rounds during an engagement.
Durability of the weapon-- Ever heard the term "Soldier proof"? the weapon needs to be able to take the daily abuse of use in the field. The barrels need to be able to take thousands of rounds through them. Easily maintainable in the field and by armourers.

Everything else. Fancy sights are cool and improve accuracy. Night sights are of use as well

finally cost-


iLION12345_1 said:


> To be completely honest, the decision we needed was already made, the people in this thread are waiting for the wrong thing. I’m not sure how no one else has noticed such an obvious thing.
> 
> The way I see it, we won’t be seeing a G3 replacement, because the AK series has replaced the G3 as the standard weapon of the PA, and im glad it has. The 7.62x51 calibre of the G3 is highly unsuited for normal combat in the hands of a normal soldier. The calibre is way too big, and PA thankfully realized this in the trials.
> 
> That’s why there is absolutely no urgency to replace the G3. On the other side, PA has already started modernizing it’s AKs. Wether it be modernizing older ones with new polymer furniture, simply adding optics, grips and other attachments, or purchasing AK-103Ms (soon to come in my opinion).
> 
> The most we will see as a G3 replacement is a specialized rifle that may be issued to some soldiers in dedicated “rifleman” roles. This rifle may be purchased in small numbers. Apart from this, we will not see any new large-scale firearm induction into the PA. It simply doesn’t make sense to equip every soldier with a 7.62x51 calibre rifle due to its high recoil And the weight of the associated rifle. No other military uses it as a standard calibre for a reason.
> 
> Bottom line Is; G3 has been replaced by the AK series, and said AK series is already being modernized and we can visibly see that. G3 will be retired sooner or later, it may not get its own replacement at all, at most a small scale replacement for specialized roles, but that’s about it. And this is a *good thing.*
> 
> Maybe this thread should be closed now, and we can move the entirety of the small Arms discussion of PA to another Thread. *PAs standard rifles (G3 and Type 56-I) have already been replaced.*


Well the HK33 manufactured locally could switch out the G-3's. It would be a smaller calibre but with similar set up to the G3 so training and drills wouldn't have to be drastically altered.

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## Reddawn

iLION12345_1 said:


> The G3 is in very limited use already, and new AKs are constantly coming in. I don’t think we will be seeing G3 for much longer. We‘re buying new AKs for a reason, because we’re going to keep using them (this includes new Type 56-II rifles.)



What new AKs are we buying? As far as I know an order was placed for the Ak103 for the FC but that's it.


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## akramishaqkhan

I have given up on the PA ever replacing their rifles. Terrible planning and execution.

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## iLION12345_1

Reddawn said:


> What new AKs are we buying? As far as I know an order was placed for the Ak103 for the FC but that's it.


Check the guns PA soldiers have been carrying, they are either Type 56-II with mounting rails added for sights, optics and such or they are locally modernized AKs (not sure what designation PA uses for them, maybe they are from POF) with the AK-203 style stock and polymer furniture and rails. The old Type 56-I are nowhere to be seen. Both these new AKs are still being procured. G3 is rarely seen too.

FC and other paramilitaries are getting AK-103M first because the MOI is buying it for them, army will likely buy it too, I believe a very small number is already in service.




akramishaqkhan said:


> I have given up on the PA ever replacing their rifles. Terrible planning and execution.


But they already replaced them. A 7.62x51 mm replacement would have been a terrible choice, no matter how fancy the gun, I’m glad they switched to 7.62x39 mm. You can give the average soldier the most expensive SCAR-H and he will still perform better with an Old AK because the calibre is much better suited for normal use.


*Modernizing the standard infantry loadout doesn’t just mean getting them shiny new rifles, People keep criticizing PA for that but there is no praise for the fact that Modern optics, grips, radios, earpieces and other kit that we never see in third world armies has been made standard in the PA. These optics and grips help a soldier much more than a slightly newer rifle would. It was absolutely the correct choice to spend money on those instead of buying the most expensive rifles. PA took the middle way and bought average rifles or modernized ones and then equipped them properly with accessories. *





Keysersoze said:


> Ok well as a Infantryman I'll Say these are the factors that will need to be considered. in no particular order;
> 
> Weight of the weapon--The heavier weapons are more tiring to carry and add to the overall burden of the solder.
> Accuracy of the weapon--If you can't hit anything whats the point
> Ammo-- Lighter ammo or heavier ammo. Lighter ammo (5-56 or similar) has less stopping power but you can carry more (very important) and it has lighter recoil improving accuracy. Heavier ammo has better range and stopping power. Personally more ammo is important to me. It's amazing how fast you can blow through rounds during an engagement.
> Durability of the weapon-- Ever heard the term "Soldier proof"? the weapon needs to be able to take the daily abuse of use in the field. The barrels need to be able to take thousands of rounds through them. Easily maintainable in the field and by armourers.
> 
> Everything else. Fancy sights are cool and improve accuracy. Night sights are of use as well
> 
> finally cost-
> 
> Well the HK33 manufactured locally could switch out the G-3's. It would be a smaller calibre but with similar set up to the G3 so training and drills wouldn't have to be drastically altered.


Switching to 5.56 calibre is not an option at all. No matter the gun, It would mean PAs millions of dollars worth of ammunition stocks are useless, we would have to re-tool machines at the factories for the new ammo and also build up the stocks again over several years. We simply don’t have the money for that, it’s not logistically sound.

PA made it clear in the trials that the only two calibers it would be accepting are 7.62x51 or 7.62x39, they made their choice correctly by picking the latter in my opinion.

The mainstream Chinese guns cannot be picked for this same reason, they use calibers we have never even had in Pakistan Before.

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## Raja Porus

iLION12345_1 said:


> People keep criticizing PA for that but there is no praise for the fact that Modern optics, grips, radios, earpieces and other kit that we never see in third world armies has been made standard in the PA.


Yep, seeing even regular infantrymen of PA often makes me think that they must be of LCBs. Especially due to optics nad personal protection.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/795989466632617984If one looks closely he will be able to see that the infantrymen crossing the water obstacle have grenade launchers and other attachments that too in 2016!

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## Tomcats

iLION12345_1 said:


> Check the guns PA soldiers have been carrying, they are either Type 56-II with mounting rails added for sights, optics and such or they are locally modernized AKs (not sure what designation PA uses for them, maybe they are from POF) with the AK-203 style stock and polymer furniture and rails. The old Type 56-I are nowhere to be seen. Both these new AKs are still being procured. G3 is rarely seen too.


Yeah seems at least that the modified Type 56 is the norm as far as the LoC is concerned, a picture from earlier this year.


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## Invictus01

One thing is for sure
The Guys incharge of procurement in the Army all need to be sacked
From Inducting Tin Can Commercial Hilux with no roll over cage or a proper LMG mount to accepting thousands of Type 56-II rifles with no rail mounts or any other option to mount an optic least of all a darn handgrip
And that horrible woodenish bakelite stock with absolutely no regard to camouflage or anything of that sort
I swear our men look like they are part of some rag tag afrian militia with these AKs 
Utterly disappointing & pathetic to say the least

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## iLION12345_1

Tomcats said:


> Yeah seems at least that the modified Type 56 is the norm as far as the LoC is concerned, a picture from earlier this year.
> View attachment 784164


These and the Modernized AK203 style rifles are both very common. The other one has been seen more often in Combat in FATA and other COIN Ops. Not hard to find photos of it.
Couple of actual AK-103Ms in there too.






























Invictus01 said:


> One thing is for sure
> The Guys incharge of procurement in the Army all need to be sacked
> From Inducting Tin Can Commercial Hilux with no roll over cage or a proper LMG mount to accepting thousands of Type 56-II rifles with no rail mounts or any other option to mount an optic least of all a darn handgrip
> And that horrible woodenish bakelite stock with absolutely no regard to camouflage or anything of that sort
> I swear our men look like they are part of some rag tag afrian militia with these AKs
> Utterly disappointing & pathetic to say the least


If only you‘d have bothered to read any of the posts, look at any pictures or videos or done any research at all. Sadly it’s always easier to complain than do any of those things.

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## Pandora

Invictus01 said:


> One thing is for sure
> The Guys incharge of procurement in the Army all need to be sacked
> From Inducting Tin Can Commercial Hilux with no roll over cage or a proper LMG mount to accepting thousands of Type 56-II rifles with no rail mounts or any other option to mount an optic least of all a darn handgrip
> And that horrible woodenish bakelite stock with absolutely no regard to camouflage or anything of that sort
> I swear our men look like they are part of some rag tag afrian militia with these AKs
> Utterly disappointing & pathetic to say the least


Clearly you havnt gone through the entire thread considering you are making lousy complaints. Rifle procurement for us is almost 5-6 billion $ expenditure. Do you think its easy to replace 1 million rifles? Obviously this big procurement wont be done without TOT and local production so hold your horses it takes time

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## Invictus01

iLION12345_1 said:


> These and the Modernized AK203 style rifles are both very common. The other one has been seen more often in Combat in FATA and other COIN Ops. Not hard to find photos of it.
> Couple of actual AK-103Ms in there too.
> View attachment 784179
> View attachment 784180
> View attachment 784181
> View attachment 784182
> View attachment 784183
> View attachment 784184
> View attachment 784185
> View attachment 784186
> View attachment 784187
> 
> 
> If only you‘d have bothered to read any of the posts, look at any pictures or videos or done any research at all. Sadly it’s always easier to complain than do any of those things.


Lol
You my friend don't know jack shit about guns 
These accessories you see are knock-off Chinese aftermarket parts
Half of these Red dot sights you see don't even hold zero except for a few original aimpoint red dots issued in limited quantities to certain units
Neither have these procurements been made at army level
They are all unit level procurements & mostly sold to them by a guy in Peshawar
I can get you InTouch with him if you like
Have you even held one of these modded AKs? Ever Fired one?
I highly doubt so
These AKs are forward heavy meaning you won't be able to aim down them for much long before muscle fatigue shows up

You're more of a keyboard warrior that picks certain pictures off of the internet to back your argument

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## Invictus01

And Yes I know what I'm talking about because I've imported kits for my personal weapons & I have extensive trigger time behind a lot of firearms(Both Military & Civilian)
The Mods you see on these weapons have been done by me and I wouldn't want to carry an AK with a UTG mount & a bulky Red Dot so yeah 
Infact SSG was the only formation that had legit genuine parts on their AKs with Aimpoints but they preferred M4 the moment they got their hands on them cause who would want to carry an AK & clear a compound with a 5+Kg Weapon that they have to hold for extensive periods of time

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## Zarvan

Invictus01 said:


> View attachment 784265
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And Yes I know what I'm talking about because I've imported kits for my personal weapons & I have extensive trigger time behind a lot of firearms(Both Military & Civilian)
> The Mods you see on these weapons have been done by me and I wouldn't want to carry an AK with a UTG mount & a bulky Red Dot so yeah
> Infact SSG was the only formation that had legit genuine parts on their AKs with Aimpoints but they preferred M4 the moment they got their hands on them cause who would want to carry an AK & clear a compound with a 5+Kg Weapon that they have to hold for extensive periods of time


Sir do you have any news on Rifle deal or not ? Also this new signing with Czech Republic.


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## Invictus01

Pandora said:


> Clearly you havnt gone through the entire thread considering you are making lousy complaints. Rifle procurement for us is almost 5-6 billion $ expenditure. Do you think its easy to replace 1 million rifles? Obviously this big procurement wont be done without TOT and local production so hold your horses it takes time


Lol 5-6 billion Dollars?
What are we procuring? 
Star Wars Laser beamers???
Where did you get these figures from my friend?
Clearly you don't know about anything you're talking about 
A decent Ar-15 pattern rifle costs a maximum of 1000$ 
Multiply that figure by say 100'000 as an initial off the shelf procurement for front line units costs you a maximum of 100 million dollars which isn't that huge an account considering the capabilities it will bring to troops on the ground (ergonomics+accuracy+better metallurgy+mounts for accessories)

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## Pandora

Invictus01 said:


> Lol 5-6 billion Dollars?
> What are we procuring?
> Star Wars Laser beamers???
> Where did you get these figures from my friend?
> Clearly you don't know about anything you're talking about
> A decent Ar-15 pattern rifle costs a maximum of 1000$
> Multiply that figure by say 100'000 as an initial off the shelf procurement for front line units costs you a maximum of 100 million dollars which isn't that huge an account considering the capabilities it will bring to troops on the ground (ergonomics+accuracy+better metallurgy+mounts for accessories)


You are talking about commercially available rifles not Military grade rifles. This all has been discussed a hundred times on this thread.


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## iLION12345_1

Invictus01 said:


> Lol
> You my friend don't know jack shit about guns
> These accessories you see are knock-off Chinese aftermarket parts
> Half of these Red dot sights you see don't even hold zero except for a few original aimpoint red dots issued in limited quantities to certain units
> Neither have these procurements been made at army level
> They are all unit level procurements & mostly sold to them by a guy in Peshawar
> I can get you InTouch with him if you like
> Have you even held one of these modded AKs? Ever Fired one?
> I highly doubt so
> These AKs are forward heavy meaning you won't be able to aim down them for much long before muscle fatigue shows up
> 
> You're more of a keyboard warrior that picks certain pictures off of the internet to back your argument


I don’t know who’s been feeding you this stuff, but if you’re falling for it, it may be well deserved.

Those AKs come from China and Europe. Modernization kits do come from Pakistan (and other countries).
The optics are real aimpoints Received (and bought) from the US. If we can buy F-16s from them, what makes you think we cannot buy optics?
There are other optics in service too, including Chinese ones, but how exactly does Chinese = bad? They make some of the best military accessories these days if you buy from the right companies, just because you’re buying knockoffs, doesn’t mean PA is too.

Yes the procurements are made at regiment level, not as ideal as a force-wide standard. but I don’t see how that’s a big negative Either. In fact any Regiment caught slacking with the funds issued to it for PPE, accessories and firearms modernization is going to end up in a lot of trouble, there’s systems in place for a reason.

Yes, I have owned and shot these AKs. With a few different setups too. But I don’t need time behind a trigger to use as credibility to insult someone.

I don’t know why everyone who Has a uncles brothers friends son in the army thinks they’re now the authority on everything military related. And then when someone answers back they resort straight to insults like “keyboard warrior“

AKs aren’t front heavy by nature, There is the drawback of not being able to mount Optics on the dust cover without a side mount (unless you have an AK203). However, The red dots are not as heavy as you’re making them out to be. There’s also Grips as standard issue (with bipods). I do however despise the folding stocks. They are the worst thing about the guns.
Are the setups Ideal? No, would I prefer an AR platform? 100%. But are they good enough? Yes. Definitely an upgrade over a G3 or an AK with no optics at all.
They Are also properly Zeroed in. Army armorers are trained, the guns are well taken care of.



Pandora said:


> You are talking about commercially available rifles not Military grade rifles. This all has been discussed a hundred times on this thread.


The guns have already been replaced, I’m really not sure why people keep asking For another replacement.

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## iLION12345_1

Invictus01 said:


> Lol 5-6 billion Dollars?
> What are we procuring?
> Star Wars Laser beamers???
> Where did you get these figures from my friend?
> Clearly you don't know about anything you're talking about
> A decent Ar-15 pattern rifle costs a maximum of 1000$
> Multiply that figure by say 100'000 as an initial off the shelf procurement for front line units costs you a maximum of 100 million dollars which isn't that huge an account considering the capabilities it will bring to troops on the ground (ergonomics+accuracy+better metallurgy+mounts for accessories)


if only it was that simple. Finding a company to supply them, then trialing the gun (and assuming it passes trials), then retraining everyone on AR-pattern rifles, then re-tooling factories for 556 ammo, then rebuilding stocks. (And that’s considering Pakistan gets licenses to produce said rifle locally too, and the cost of said license And related machines, otherwise direct import is even more expensive.)
This isn’t the USA where 1000$ USD will get you a decent (civilian) AR-15 build.

However I do think that if the military could switch to an AR Pattern rifle in 7.62x39, that would be a good compromise. But there aren’t many of those (specifically made for military usage) out there.

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## Waiting

iLION12345_1 said:


> These and the Modernized AK203 style rifles are both very common. The other one has been seen more often in Combat in FATA and other COIN Ops. Not hard to find photos of it.
> Couple of actual AK-103Ms in there too.
> View attachment 784179
> View attachment 784180
> View attachment 784181
> View attachment 784182
> View attachment 784183
> View attachment 784184
> View attachment 784185
> View attachment 784186
> View attachment 784187
> 
> 
> If only you‘d have bothered to read any of the posts, look at any pictures or videos or done any research at all. Sadly it’s always easier to complain than do any of those things.


Non of them is original AK 103


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## iLION12345_1

Waiting said:


> Non of them is original AK 103


There are original AK-103s in two of the pictures. One of them is from the trials. I’m pretty sure Russia would want real ones in the trials

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## Waiting

iLION12345_1 said:


> There are original AK-103s in two of the pictures. One of them is from the trials. I’m pretty sure Russia would want real ones in the trials


Ohh, thanx. Failed to see

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## spectregunship

iLION12345_1 said:


> Modernizing the standard infantry loadout doesn’t just mean getting them shiny new rifles, People keep criticizing PA for that but there is no praise for the fact that Modern optics, grips, radios, earpieces and other kit that we never see in third world armies has been made standard in the PA. These optics and grips help a soldier much more than a slightly newer rifle would. It was absolutely the correct choice to spend money on those instead of buying the most expensive rifles. PA took the middle way and bought average rifles or modernized ones and then equipped them properly with accessories.



Just a quick fact check...induction of equipment that you mentioned is piece meal and not a standardisation.... neither the T56 / POF made T56 is being standardised despite its addition in large numbers... The standard rifle remains the G3... and it is not being replaced with any other...as of yet...


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## iLION12345_1

spectregunship said:


> Just a quick fact check...induction of equipment that you mentioned is piece meal and not a standardisation.... neither the T56 / POF made T56 is being standardised despite its addition in large numbers... The standard rifle remains the G3... and it is not being replaced with any other...as of yet...


You can call it what you want, so can the army, the reality in the force is what I mentioned. G3s are rarely seen, rarely carried and rarely used now, and it’s highly unlikely we will see a large scale replacement for them, If the PA does buy a new .308 calibre rifle it will serve in more specialized roles. The current AKs (or hopefully better ones in the future) will remain the mainstay, that or any other gun in the calibre. _That_ is the replacement for the G3.

If PA does adopt a .308 rifle and standardizes it again, not only are they wasting all the money spent on the current AKs, they are also significantly reducing the accuracy of an average soldier, as well as increasing the weight and size of the rifle he has to carry. The cartridge is simply not suitable for mass adoption. There is a reason every modern military has stopped using it (The best ones have moved on to even smaller 5.56 and 5.45 calibers, but our logistics hold us back from that at the moment).

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## akramishaqkhan

Guys I have seen these weapons first hand. The state of affairs is not good.

We have essentially taken the notion that existing platforms modified with non-standardized Chinese after market parts makes for a rifle replacement strategy. It does not. G3s are no longer viable assets for the type of warfare Pakistani military orgs need to contend with. SMGs which are currently Chinese milled units are heavy, clunky primarily iron sighted. From NV to red-dots - nothing is following a standards approach. You still have Maal Khana extracts making it to fighting units and replenishments of some captured weapons (Russian/East European units) especially for Officers who are always on the look out for a good "dana". Many coming from FC fighting units. I am not saying let's go on a Call of Duty shopping expedition. What I am saying is there is a lot of room for standardization and sourcing improvement. There is room for core platform enhancement, while keep in mind the environment and nature of our solider and his ability to keep his rifle in operating condition.

Rifle replacement strategy by the PA is not positive. I will still contend that the culture that exists in PA is Col and below one world, Brig and above another world. It breaks my heart to see how tough conditions are for grunts and folks on the field. Not the LOC. LOC is well replenished and done well. But come down to RYK/Rajastan or the Western border - man it is rough. Basic things like medical support, water etc., is a challenge. Let's not even talk about Rangers and their conditions. Not the Rangers getting fat and happy in their city appointments (which never end), but the poor souls on the borders.

I dont want to start anything here with respect to Officer corp and fighting soldier differences, but when CMH in Pindi began to separate Officer wing from Solider wing (many years ago) - you know the culture has become toxic. Hoping some current Pakistani officers see the folly in this and that this colonial and class based mindset will always hurt a war fighting force and should change. Let there be a "caste system" in the Indian army, but let's not bring similar BS into our system of brotherhood and war fighting, under the guise of British lessons of unit discipline.

I hope these comments are taken with a positive approach and not looked at as negative. Intention is to improve here.

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## spectregunship

iLION12345_1 said:


> You can call it what you want, so can the army, the reality in the force is what I mentioned. G3s are rarely seen, rarely carried and rarely used now, and it’s highly unlikely we will see a large scale replacement for them, If the PA does buy a new .308 calibre rifle it will serve in more specialized roles. The current AKs (or hopefully better ones in the future) will remain the mainstay, that or any other gun in the calibre. _That_ is the replacement for the G3.
> 
> If PA does adopt a 308 rifle and standardizes it again, not only are they wasting all the money spent on the current AKs, they are also significantly reducing the accuracy of an average soldier, as well as increasing the weight and size of the rifle he has to carry. The cartridge is simply not suitable for mass adoption. There is a reason every modern military has stopped using it (The best ones have moved on to even smaller 5.56 and 5.45 calibers, but our logistics hold us back from that at the moment).



I mean I never get into arguments on the forum but it is not what I want to call it but what is a reality in force. It would be misleading for a lot many readers on this forum if they take home from this thread that AK / T56 is replacement for G3 because it is not. All T56 induction is part of special stores allocation for the location, duty or requirement. That remains a fact and does not change anything within the Army's tactics and training. 

P.S. 7.62x51 is not the same as .308.

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## iLION12345_1

akramishaqkhan said:


> Guys I have seen these weapons first hand. The state of affairs is not good.
> 
> We have essentially taken the notion that existing platforms modified with non-standardized Chinese after market parts makes for a rifle replacement strategy. It does not. G3s are no longer viable assets for the type of warfare Pakistani military orgs need to contend with. SMGs which are currently Chinese milled units are heavy, clunky primarily iron sighted. From NV to red-dots - nothing is following a standards approach. You still have Maal Khana extracts making it to fighting units and replenishments of some captured weapons (Russian/East European units) especially for Officers who are always on the look out for a good "dana". Many coming from FC fighting units.
> 
> Rifle replacement strategy by the PA is not positive. I will still contend that the culture that exists in PA is Col and below one world, Brig and above another world. It breaks my heart to see how tough conditions are for grunts and folks on the field. Not the LOC. LOC is well replenished and done well. But come down to RYK/Rajastan or the Western border - man it is rough. Basic things like medical support, water etc., is a challenge. Let's not even talk about Rangers and their conditions. Not the Rangers getting fat and happy in their city appointments (which never end), but the poor souls on the borders.
> 
> I dont want to start anything here with respect to Officer corp and fighting soldier differences, but when CMH in Pindi began to separate Officer wing from Solider wing (many years ago) - you know the culture has become toxic. Hoping some current Pakistani officers see the folly in this and that this colonial and class based mindset will always hurt a war fighting force and should change. Let there be a "caste system" in the Indian army, but let's not bring similar BS into our system of brotherhood and war fighting, under the guise of British lessons of unit discipline.
> 
> I hope these comments are taking with a positive approach and not looked at as negative. Intention is to improve here.


Some of the stuff I agree with, some I disagree with. Some is not even True, some is.

But one thing is for certain, the segregation that exists between an NCO and a CO in the military is very much a part of the society we live in and it’s norms, that is a very unfortunate thing, one carried over from centuries of culture. Both of the old Muslim armies and then the British ones.

The only way to get rid of it is through education, there has been a stark improvement in the treatment of NCOs as the general level of education among them has gone up And they have started to realize their own importance. Not less than 15 years ago, many of them had only passed primary school, nowadays they cannot enlist without passing FSC. It’s still nowhere near ideal, and it will stay that way until we improve as a society to where ranks in a workplace stay related to the job and don’t make the person themselves superior or inferior as it is now. It’s not just a thing In the armed forces, it’s as such everywhere. One positive example is the Air Force and to some extent the navy, where due to the generally higher qualifications of all the members, Officers and Jawans aren't as segregated. Still, a lot remains to be done.

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## akramishaqkhan

I agree with everything you said - so wondering what parts in my writeup you disagreed with. Would love to get your thoughts. 
If the cycling in of captured weapons is where you disagree, I can shed how it is done.


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## iLION12345_1

spectregunship said:


> I mean I never get into arguments on the forum but it is not what I want to call it but what is a reality in force. It would be misleading for a lot many readers on this forum if they take home from this thread that AK / T56 is replacement for G3 because it is not. All T56 induction is part of special stores allocation for the location, duty or requirement. That remains a fact and does not change anything within the Army's tactics and training.
> 
> P.S. 7.62x51 is not the same as .308.


Again, on paper, you’d be right, in practice, unfortunately not. You can’t just say “the G3 is our standard rifle And our doctrine and training is based around it” while also not using them at all, but instead almost exclusively using AK series rifles. See how that’s counterproductive? The designation of “standard rifle” means little then. 
PAs training and tactics are also based around the AK series at the moment. That’s the rifle mostly used in training, that’s the one used on the LOC, that’s the one used in Ex-FATA, that’s the one carried by sentries. So even if the G3 is still the “standard rifle” on paper, in practice it’s just not true, and that matters more. 

That being said, I don’t think what I said counters what you said (or Vice versa). My point still stands, that the replacement for the G3 will likely be an AK platform (or anything) in the 7.62x39MM calibre, and with how things are going right now, it certainly seems we’re already there. If the PA _does_ in fact buy another 7.62x51MM calibre battle rifle to replace the G3 in large numbers, then I’m afraid they’d be making a very stupid mistake. 

And I am aware they are not exactly the same, however, they are nearly identical and interchangeable, Hence one or the other doesn’t matter.

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## akramishaqkhan

iLION12345_1 said:


> Again, on paper, you’d be right, in practice, unfortunately not. You can’t just say “the G3 is our standard rifle And our doctrine and training is based around it” while also not using them at all, but instead almost exclusively using AK series rifles. See how that’s counterproductive? The designation of “standard rifle” means little then.
> PAs training and tactics are also based around the AK series at the moment. That’s the rifle mostly used in training, that’s the one used on the LOC, that’s the one used in Ex-FATA, that’s the one carried by sentries. So even if the G3 is still the “standard rifle” on paper, in practice it’s just not true, and that matters more.
> 
> That being said, I don’t think what I said counters what you said (or Vice versa). My point still stands, that the replacement for the G3 will likely be an AK platform (or anything) in the 7.62x39MM calibre, and with how things are going right now, it certainly seems we’re already there. If the PA _does_ in fact buy another 7.62x51MM calibre battle rifle to replace the G3 in large numbers, then I’m afraid they’d be making a very stupid mistake.
> 
> And I am aware they are not exactly the same, however, they are nearly identical and interchangeable, Hence one or the other doesn’t matter.


My understanding is the transition to SMG has been going on for some time. Though my views were that G3 remained the central weapon of choice in battle formations (mechanized and armor supported infantry), with a few SMGs peppered around. Whereas pure infantry formations (not full battle formations), COIN ops are front loaded with SMGs and not G3s. I maybe mistaken.


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## iLION12345_1

akramishaqkhan said:


> I agree with everything you said - so wondering what parts in my writeup you disagreed with. Would love to get your thoughts.
> If the cycling in of captured weapons is where you disagree, I can shed how it is done.


I decided not to take that further as the thread is not relevant to the topic, however that was not the disagreement. While not true in the army, in the FC the use of captured weapons, especially American ones smuggled in from Afghanistan was very common (and it doesn’t stop at weapons). However it has naturally gone down with the decrease in smuggling, though is still a present issue And definitely needs to be addressed.

My other disagreement was with the comment about Colonels and below and brigadiers and above being some sort of massive difference, the PA is a big place, there will be some bad nuts, but such a “two-worlds” thing is certainly not commonplace. I could go into the details but trust me it would get very long, the only thing I’ll say is, we often overestimate how much of a “badmash” the average Brigadier and above officer feels or thinks he is. They don’t just suddenly change like that.

As for conditions being different in different regions, that is fact, but I don’t see how it’s surprising. That’s like saying the US troops based in Washington have it easier than the US troops based in Afghanistan.…well…yes. They do. Not all of Pakistan is as developed and not every side has the same level of threats, while ideally we would provide the same facilities to every soldier everywhere, we just don’t have the money, it’s not just a thing in the military. As an example, government doctors have mandatory service years in rural areas, where they have significantly less facilities, do significantly more and harder work and for the same pay. But they are signing up for this when they take the job. And this is exactly why they are rotated so often, to cities, to borders, to all sorts of terrains, to safety and to danger. In an ideal world, where we had enough money and no enemies, we could make sure all our soldiers everywhere were kept safe and secure, and even now we should try out hardest for that. 

I cannot however speak for the rangers and the FC, they are under the ministry of interior and are supposed to serve closer to their homes, but unfair advantages are used in this regard.

All that being said, the lack of basic equipment that is costing the lives of our soldiers, especially on the western border, is absolutely inexcusable and very saddening to see. No matter who’s responsible for it. Especially In the case of the FC.

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## iLION12345_1

akramishaqkhan said:


> My understanding is the transition to SMG has been going on for some time. Though my views were that G3 remained the central weapon of choice in battle formations (mechanized and armor supported infantry), with a few SMGs peppered around. Whereas pure infantry formations (not full battle formations), COIN ops are front loaded with SMGs and not G3s. I maybe mistaken.


It was certainly like that for a long while, but drastically changed rather recently, take some time to observe videos from full scale exercises that PA has been conducting Post 2016 and look at the firearms. Almost All AKs. And these are conventional military exercises.

Obviously I could be wrong, I don’t know the internal workings of the PA, but this also just makes more sense. An average infantryman, regardless of his role, will perform significantly better with an AK Than a G3, and that’s before we add any sort of accessories to the AK. The G3 is so heavy and the calibre is so big, that just hitting a target in quick succession is hard for the average soldier under a high pressure situation, and that’s not even the soldiers fault, it’s an old weapon with a calibre more suited for specialized roles.

Coming to your concern about the quality of accessories and rifles issues to the soldiers, as I’ve already covered, is it ideal? definitely not, in fact even with our meagre finances it could have been handled much better. But it is still certainly an improvement over whatever we had going on in the past, I‘m really hoping the military gets its act together and starts standardizing stuff on a Force-wide level again, it’s not too late to fix it even with what’s already been bought.

but I don’t have an issue with the quality of the things they’re getting, just the variation and how some are getting better stuff than others, but PA has strict enough quality control from my experience that they are definitely not inducting cheap or knock-off stuff on a large scale. And in case such a mistake is made, the repercussions usually follow. Yes, The Type 56-II isn’t the best rifle, it has more quality issues than even the original Type 56-I rifles, those were extremely reliable and well liked, Your usual AK. But the New ones aren’t some sort of cheap knock-offs or dangerously low grade rifles, they’re a cheap upgrade over what was available before, maybe even a stop gap. But it’s not a step back. Just a non-ideal step forward.
When the US army inducted the M-16 for the first time they almost reversed the decision, the gun was that bad. And don’t even get me started I’m the British L85 series that they still use as a standard rifle (or for that matter, the INSAS Across the border).


Interesting story about why the AK is referred to as an SMG by the PA though;
When the war on terror started, the standard SMG and CQB weapon was the MP-5 (while the G3 was the standard rifle, too big for CQB). But after only a short while it was clearly realized that an MP-5 simply wasn’t enough to stop a charging Extremist with body armor who’s also high on 4 different kinds of drugs. That’s when they started buying any and every type of AK (Mainly Type 56-I) they could find to quickly fill the gaps. As it was replacing an SMG, the AK for the designation of an SMG, even though it’s obviously not one.

At least now with the new AKs, only two types are being inducted, so there is some increase in the level of standardization, and The number of accessories that have become standard issue has thankfully increased a lot. Even in large scale exercises we can often see Soldiers the basic accessories, but damn, so much is left to be desired. Nothing is done to perfection anywhere in this country, I guess we just hold the armed forces to a much higher standard so we expect it from at least them.

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## akramishaqkhan

iLION12345_1 said:


> It was certainly like that for a long while, but drastically changed rather recently, take some time to observe videos from full scale exercises that PA has been conducting Post 2016 and look at the firearms. Almost All AKs. And these are conventional military exercises.
> 
> Obviously I could be wrong, I don’t know the internal workings of the PA, but this also just makes more sense. An average infantryman, regardless of his role, will perform significantly better with an AK Than a G3, and that’s before we add any sort of accessories to the AK. The G3 is so heavy and the calibre is so big, that just hitting a target in quick succession is hard for the average soldier under a high pressure situation, and that’s not even the soldiers fault, it’s an old weapon with a calibre more suited for specialized roles.
> 
> Coming to your concern about the quality of accessories and rifles issues to the soldiers, as I’ve already covered, is it ideal? definitely not, in fact even with our meagre finances it could have been handled much better. But it is still certainly an improvement over whatever we had going on in the past, I‘m really hoping the military gets its act together and starts standardizing stuff on a Force-wide level again, it’s not too late to fix it even with what’s already been bought.
> 
> but I don’t have an issue with the quality of the things they’re getting, just the variation and how some are getting better stuff than others, but PA has strict enough quality control from my experience that they are definitely not inducting cheap or knock-off stuff on a large scale. And in case such a mistake is made, the repercussions usually follow. Yes, The Type 56-II isn’t the best rifle, it has more quality issues than even the original Type 56-I rifles, those were extremely reliable and well liked, Your usual AK. But the New ones aren’t some sort of cheap knock-offs or dangerously low grade rifles, they’re a cheap upgrade over what was available before, maybe even a stop gap. But it’s not a step back. Just a non-ideal step forward.
> When the US army inducted the M-16 for the first time they almost reversed the decision, the gun was that bad. And don’t even get me started I’m the British L85 series that they still use as a standard rifle (or for that matter, the INSAS Across the border).
> 
> 
> Interesting story about why the AK is referred to as an SMG by the PA though;
> When the war on terror started, the standard SMG and CQB weapon was the MP-5 (while the G3 was the standard rifle, too big for CQB). But only after a short while it was clearly realized that an MP-5 simply wasn’t enough to stop a charging Extremist with body armor who’s also high on 4 different kinds of drugs. That’s when they started buying any and every type of AK they could find ti quickly fill the gaps. As it was replacing an SMG, the AK for the designation of an SMG, even though it’s obviously not one.
> 
> At least now with the new AKs, only two types are being inducted, so there is some increase in the level of standardization, and The number of accessories that have become standard issue has thankfully increased a lot. Even in large scale exercises we can often see Soldiers the basic accessories, but damn, so much is left to be desired. Nothing is done to perfection anywhere in this country, I guess we just hold the armed forces to a much higher standard so we expect it from at least them.


Thanks for the detailed response. I agree with all your arguments on this topic. Only part I guess we'll agree to disagree is the NCO JCO difference and the gap growth at single star and above. I also agree that not all operating areas are the same. Some more developed than others. But I feel as a fighting unit there has to be a baseline. That baseline should include comms, rations, water, and few additional incidental logistics. These need to operate off a baseline. I find this baseline has too many variances in the Pakistani Army. Where in one case your fighting units are well stocked, while in others something as basic as water becomes a rare commodity. BTW you'll find these variance all the way up to the Corp level as well, something well documented through GHQs own analysis of war fighting state of our Corps. 5th Corp being a notorious under-performer. This could be a function of lack of logistic focus in PA (though improved in large measure from earlier years), but I think irks me when I think of the NCO fighting soldier. Officers are critical but at the hyper local tactical level, the NCO unit with their Subedaar/Havaldaar element is the basic DNA of the fighting unit. Making this unit a highly functioning element will pay dividends in war fighting.

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## akramishaqkhan

iLION12345_1 said:


> It was certainly like that for a long while, but drastically changed rather recently, take some time to observe videos from full scale exercises that PA has been conducting Post 2016 and look at the firearms. Almost All AKs. And these are conventional military exercises.
> 
> Obviously I could be wrong, I don’t know the internal workings of the PA, but this also just makes more sense. An average infantryman, regardless of his role, will perform significantly better with an AK Than a G3, and that’s before we add any sort of accessories to the AK. The G3 is so heavy and the calibre is so big, that just hitting a target in quick succession is hard for the average soldier under a high pressure situation, and that’s not even the soldiers fault, it’s an old weapon with a calibre more suited for specialized roles.
> 
> Coming to your concern about the quality of accessories and rifles issues to the soldiers, as I’ve already covered, is it ideal? definitely not, in fact even with our meagre finances it could have been handled much better. But it is still certainly an improvement over whatever we had going on in the past, I‘m really hoping the military gets its act together and starts standardizing stuff on a Force-wide level again, it’s not too late to fix it even with what’s already been bought.
> 
> but I don’t have an issue with the quality of the things they’re getting, just the variation and how some are getting better stuff than others, but PA has strict enough quality control from my experience that they are definitely not inducting cheap or knock-off stuff on a large scale. And in case such a mistake is made, the repercussions usually follow. Yes, The Type 56-II isn’t the best rifle, it has more quality issues than even the original Type 56-I rifles, those were extremely reliable and well liked, Your usual AK. But the New ones aren’t some sort of cheap knock-offs or dangerously low grade rifles, they’re a cheap upgrade over what was available before, maybe even a stop gap. But it’s not a step back. Just a non-ideal step forward.
> When the US army inducted the M-16 for the first time they almost reversed the decision, the gun was that bad. And don’t even get me started I’m the British L85 series that they still use as a standard rifle (or for that matter, the INSAS Across the border).
> 
> 
> Interesting story about why the AK is referred to as an SMG by the PA though;
> When the war on terror started, the standard SMG and CQB weapon was the MP-5 (while the G3 was the standard rifle, too big for CQB). But after only a short while it was clearly realized that an MP-5 simply wasn’t enough to stop a charging Extremist with body armor who’s also high on 4 different kinds of drugs. That’s when they started buying any and every type of AK (Mainly Type 56-I) they could find to quickly fill the gaps. As it was replacing an SMG, the AK for the designation of an SMG, even though it’s obviously not one.
> 
> At least now with the new AKs, only two types are being inducted, so there is some increase in the level of standardization, and The number of accessories that have become standard issue has thankfully increased a lot. Even in large scale exercises we can often see Soldiers the basic accessories, but damn, so much is left to be desired. Nothing is done to perfection anywhere in this country, I guess we just hold the armed forces to a much higher standard so we expect it from at least them.


BTW the one weapon I love is the Mauser LMG. What a weapon and still going strong even after so many years. Freaking Germans and their handiwork.

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## Tomcats

@iLION12345_1 Though genuine question, how feasible would've a modified G-3 akin to the Swedish and Norwegians be as a 'replacement'/stopgap. I understand Pak definitely made a lot of modified versions but what i don't understand is what was the issue that seems to have prevented it from being adopted en masse. Caliber wise the round is quite large, however, with the proliferation of higher quality/better body armor it would make sense, NATO i believe is also perhaps deciding to upgrade from 556 i think. It's length and butt stock leaves a lot to be desired on the original G3 but surely some modifications could've improved such ergonomics such that it would be less unwieldy. Your thoughts?

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## Waiting




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## iLION12345_1

Tomcats said:


> @iLION12345_1 Though genuine question, how feasible would've a modified G-3 akin to the Swedish and Norwegians be as a 'replacement'/stopgap. I understand Pak definitely made a lot of modified versions but what i don't understand is what was the issue that seems to have prevented it from being adopted en masse. Caliber wise the round is quite large, however, with the proliferation of higher quality/better body armor it would make sense, NATO i believe is also perhaps deciding to upgrade from 556 i think. It's length and butt stock leaves a lot to be desired on the original G3 but surely some modifications could've improved such ergonomics such that it would be less unwieldy. Your thoughts?


POF makes local modernization kits for the G3, and they’re not that bad either, the issue is that such kits cost about the same as a new rifle, so it doesn’t make much sense to get them, especially when they cannot Adress some of the most basic issues with the rifle, like it’s recoil, size and calibre. They’re also not as thorough as some of the kits made in the west, and even if we were to purchase those western ones, the basic issue remains. 

it made sense for the Swedes and Norwegians as they have a small amount of rifles and a large amount of money. We have A massive amount of rifles and not the same kind of economic situation, we have to go with the most cost effective option, and this sadly wasn’t it, however it would be viable for other countries, as it was for the Scandinavian countries.

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## Raja Porus

These G3s have rails.

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## Great Janjua

Desert Fox 1 said:


> View attachment 787145
> 
> 
> These G3s have rails.


Minor upgrade. Things like a lightweight trigger, Lighter furniture. Plus hand grip is needed most.

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## spectregunship

Desert Fox 1 said:


> View attachment 787145
> 
> 
> These G3s have rails.


it is part of a lot modified back in 2014 to 2016... these had a Picatinny Rail at top & handguard with a foregrip, muzzle brake, adjustable buttstock.
It was an experimental venture but was discontinued...weapon weight increased by a little over half a kilo besides the muzzle brake issues...many units still field these experimental ones as part of the inventory..

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Guess VKS100 won the SMG category.

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## iLION12345_1

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Guess VKS100 won the SMG category.
> View attachment 796775
> View attachment 796776


Not with the army. VSK-100 has only been ordered by FC KPK/FC BL and Baluchistan Levies (maybe other Forces under MOI too). There were some reports of them buying AK103Ms too but I haven’t seen any in service so far.

Army is still using Type 56-IIM as standard SMG.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

iLION12345_1 said:


> Not with the army. VSK-100 has only been ordered by FC KPK/FC BL and Baluchistan Levies (maybe other Forces under MOI too). There were some reports of them buying AK103Ms too but I haven’t seen any in service so far.
> 
> Army is still using Type 56-IIM as standard SMG.


Well ISPR sure is using them for their bs dramas

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## iLION12345_1

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Well ISPR sure is using them for their bs dramas
> View attachment 797073


Well let’s hope it makes it off the TV screens and into Soldiers’ hands quickly then, it could very well be the Type 56-IIM replacement, I’ve just not seen it in army hands outside this drama so far.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

iLION12345_1 said:


> Well let’s hope it makes it off the TV screens and into Soldiers’ hands quickly then, it could very well be the Type 56-IIM replacement, I’ve just not seen it in army hands outside this drama so far.


Neither have I..but seems even police is using them.
Thats alot of guns wonder if they will produce them.. PK21 aka 103 aka VKS100?

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## iLION12345_1

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Neither have I..but seems even police is using them.
> Thats alot of guns wonder if they will produce them.. PK21 aka 103 aka VKS100?


They might go for both, there’s already modernized AKs in service along with Type 56-IIM. The local “AK-103” (PK-21) isn’t really an AK-103, it’s missing the polymer mags, the muzzle device and probably the improved barrel too. 
If they want actual AK-103M they’d need to buy it from Russia.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

iLION12345_1 said:


> Well let’s hope it makes it off the TV screens and into Soldiers’ hands quickly then, it could very well be the Type 56-IIM replacement, I’ve just not seen it in army hands outside this drama so far.


What happened to the PK18? Testing or fluke?


iLION12345_1 said:


> They might go for both, there’s already modernized AKs in service along with Type 56-IIM. The local “AK-103” (PK-21) isn’t really an AK-103, it’s missing the polymer mags, the muzzle device and probably the improved barrel too.
> If they want actual AK-103M they’d need to buy it from Russia.


I know or lacked those things but the barrel? 
If so thats basically the same old unlicensed AK they produced couple of years back till russia protested and chinese type was deemed cheaper to induct.

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## iLION12345_1

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> What happened to the PK18? Testing or fluke?
> 
> I know or lacked those things but the barrel?
> If so thats basically the same old unlicensed AK they produced couple of years back till russia protested and chinese type was deemed cheaper to induct.


I can’t really say If they’ve changed it internally, it’s impossible to tell, but I would lean towards a no simply because if they don’t have the ToT they’d have to design their own. However for PA imo the ability to mount accessories was a bigger upgrade than anything else. Something the Type 56-IIM and the modernization kits (those kits usually have the AK203 stock with polymer furniture and AK103M style rails, again, unsure if there are internal changes) already allow.

If they do get VSK-100/AK-103M it will be less on an upgrade now then it would have been if they had gone directly to those from the type 56-1 (which is still in limited use). So it will be interesting to see if they plan to induct those or not. Because the other forces (FC etc) are going directly to VSK-100s from Type 56-1 or G3.

As for PK-18, I think the rifle is fine for civilian use, but it failed the military trials, barrel burst during tests apparently.

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## Raja Porus

iLION12345_1 said:


> barrel burst during tests apparently.


Not surprised

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## Zarvan

I still think the way Belarus President was meeting Imran Khan it was for a reason. I think he got big contract from Pakistan. 

Footage : Meeting of PM Imran Khan and President of Belarus H.E Alexander Lukashenko at Dushanbe - YouTube

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## Raja Porus

Zarvan said:


> I still think the way Belarus President was meeting Imran Khan it was for a reason. I think he got big contract from Pakistan.
> 
> Footage : Meeting of PM Imran Khan and President of Belarus H.E Alexander Lukashenko at Dushanbe - YouTube


Who knows what this deal may bring but I always think about why we South Asians always associate the visit/meeting of a foreign dignitary with a defence deal.

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## Zarvan

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Who knows what this deal may bring but I think why we South Asians always associate the visit/meeting of a foreign dignitary with a defence deal.


Although I believe CZ BREN could come. Specially after recent MOU on Defence Corporation with Czech Republic 🇨🇿 My opinion is based on the visible thing of Belarus 🇧🇾 being way too happy and excited to see Khan. There are no personal friendships on this level.

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## denel

Zarvan said:


> Although I believe CZ BREN could come. Specially after recent MOU on Defence Corporation with Czech Republic 🇨🇿 My opinion is based on the visible thing of Belarus 🇧🇾 being way too happy and excited to see Khan. There are no personal friendships on this level.




Zarvan... bro... we seem to see Polish, Czech, Russian etc... no belaroussian? he could be happy because of tractors exports too  - Belarussiansmakes good tractors.

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## Zarvan

First KPK Police was handed these over and now FC Baluchistan also. 

@PanzerKiel

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## TaimiKhan

Zarvan said:


> View attachment 800985
> 
> View attachment 800986
> 
> First KPK Police was handed these over and now FC Baluchistan also.
> 
> @PanzerKiel



Havent seen kpk police with these, but for more then a year seeing this weapon with the SOG guys of FC KPK.

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## Super Falcon

PA wasyed lot of time and money but still we r not clear now they r planning to manufacture G 3 modfied gun PK 21 

remember india made that mistake with insas its hard to build a perfect gun

Only germans and russians are pioners in this field

You need rrliable gun to fight any eeather any time

new varients of G 96 WOULD been belttelr


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## DESERT FIGHTER

3 rifles competing it seems.

PK18











BW-20



























New BW20 Roller-Delayed Battle Rifle from Pakistan Ordnance Factories -


The roller-delayed blowback action seems to have faded into obscurity. Until now. Meet BW20, the new battle rifle designed by Pakistan Ordnance Factories.




www.google.com





BW-21

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## akramishaqkhan

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> 3 rifles competing it seems.
> 
> PK18
> View attachment 802074
> View attachment 802075
> View attachment 802076
> 
> 
> BW-20
> 
> View attachment 802079
> View attachment 802077
> View attachment 802078
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New BW20 Roller-Delayed Battle Rifle from Pakistan Ordnance Factories -
> 
> 
> The roller-delayed blowback action seems to have faded into obscurity. Until now. Meet BW20, the new battle rifle designed by Pakistan Ordnance Factories.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BW-21
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 802080
> View attachment 802081


Recoil on this weapon is too rough. They'll need to do something about it for it to be more viable.


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## Bossman

akramishaqkhan said:


> Recoil on this weapon is too rough. They'll need to do something about it for it to be more viable.


Which one BW 2020 or 2021? In either case, I don't think so. What made you reach that conclusion. BW 2020 is a 7.62X51 round, a big one.

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## Zarvan

TaimiKhan said:


> Havent seen kpk police with these, but for more then a year seeing this weapon with the SOG guys of FC KPK.


Few months back KPK Police deployed in Tribal areas were handed over these by IG KPK in a ceremony. Also hearing Rangers in Punjab seen carrying these plus in Sinf e Ahan drama in many scenes girls are carrying these.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Bossman said:


> Which one BW 2020 or 2021? In either case, I don't think so. What made you reach that conclusion. BW 2020 is a 7.62X51 round, a big one.


BW21







BW20





BTW. POF's Salman Ali said that the BW20 and BW21 are completely different rifles. BW21 is NOT the carbine version of BW20. I think BW21 is where POF is ultimately heading by bringing the roller-delayed mechanism to an AR-type form-factor. BW21 could basically be what the PA ultimately wants in the long-run.

Also, POF's Salman Ali also said they closed the PK21 project. I think POF is rolling the 7.62x39 mm work to the BW20 (they're developing a 7.62x39 mm variant that can take AK mags) and, later, BW21. Basically, a common design for 7.62x51, 7.62x39 and 5.56x45.

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## Falcon26

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> BW21
> 
> View attachment 802091
> 
> 
> BW20
> View attachment 802092
> 
> 
> BTW. POF's Salman Ali said that the BW20 and BW21 are completely different rifles. BW21 is NOT the carbine version of BW20. I think BW21 is where POF is ultimately heading by bringing the roller-delayed mechanism to an AR-type form-factor. BW21 could basically be what the PA ultimately wants in the long-run.
> 
> Also, POF's Salman Ali also said they closed the PK21 project. I think POF is rolling the 7.62x39 mm work to the BW20 (they're developing a 7.62x39 mm variant that can take AK mags) and, later, BW21. Basically, a common design for 7.62x51, 7.62x39 and 5.56x45.



Great designs! @Zarvan


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## Super Falcon

Why pakistanarmy not opting for chinese QBZ 191 which is copy of german heckler and koch 416 class gun

Since china has dense enviornment of harsh deserts and extreme cold enviornments tgese guns went for testing this is why they passed those test and inducted




This is very valid reason to get them they are cheap and comes from pak most favourite cmpany Norinco
They look better than pak BW gun which mister salman fircing on us of old technology when every one phassing them out


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## Bilal.

Super Falcon said:


> Why pakistanarmy not opting for chinese QBZ 191 which is copy of german heckler and koch 416 class gun
> 
> Since china has dense enviornment of harsh deserts and extreme cold enviornments tgese guns went for testing this is why they passed those test and inducted
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is very valid reason to get them they are cheap and comes from pak most favourite cmpany Norinco
> They look better than pak BW gun which mister salman fircing on us of old technology when every one phassing them out


Bhai what is this “look better” logic. Also we don’t use 5.8 ammo.

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## Super Falcon

Bilal. said:


> Bhai what is this “look better” logic. Also we don’t use 5.8 ammo.


Agreed but do we used drones in 90s no so it dosent mean we cant and china can modify these guns according to our requirement


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## Bilal.

Super Falcon said:


> Agreed but do we used drones in 90s no so it dosent mean we cant and china can modify these guns according to our requirement


If we keep importing and never give our industry a chance we will never produce anything. Even foreign buyers will see that they don’t prefer their own products and never consider them.

We have 3 rifles that have been designed BW20 and BW21 based on roller delayed mechanism and PK18 based on AR15 (gas operated) we should choose one of these after testing and refining the reliability, accuracy and features.

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## Thorough Pro

LOL. 90% of PA uses G3. You need to understand the difference between a battlefield and an assault rifle. Most of the pic you see on the internet are of the units using assault rifles but that does not mean the use of G3 is limited. It is still the mainstay weapon of PA.




iLION12345_1 said:


> The G3 is in very limited use already, and new AKs are constantly coming in. I don’t think we will be seeing G3 for much longer. We‘re buying new AKs for a reason, because we’re going to keep using them (this includes new Type 56-II rifles.)

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## airmarshal

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> 3 rifles competing it seems.
> 
> PK18
> View attachment 802074
> View attachment 802075
> View attachment 802076
> 
> 
> BW-20
> 
> View attachment 802079
> View attachment 802077
> View attachment 802078
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New BW20 Roller-Delayed Battle Rifle from Pakistan Ordnance Factories -
> 
> 
> The roller-delayed blowback action seems to have faded into obscurity. Until now. Meet BW20, the new battle rifle designed by Pakistan Ordnance Factories.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BW-21
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 802080
> View attachment 802081



Are these designed in Pakistan or license built?


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Bilal. said:


> If we keep importing and never give our industry a chance we will never produce anything. Even foreign buyers will see that they don’t prefer their own products and never consider them.
> 
> We have 3 rifles that have been designed BW20 and BW21 based on roller delayed mechanism and PK18 based on AR15 (gas operated) we should choose one of these after testing and refining the reliability, accuracy and features.


I think the PA's future rifle is BW21. It leverages the AR-style frame (like a lot of new rifles) but with the roller delayed mechanism the PA's comfortable with. The whole idea sounds like the result of a serious discussion or assessment between GHQ and POF. It's basically a new, original rifle design.

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## iLION12345_1

Thorough Pro said:


> LOL. 90% of PA uses G3. You need to understand the difference between a battlefield and an assault rifle. Most of the pic you see on the internet are of the units using assault rifles but that does not mean the use of G3 is limited. It is still the mainstay weapon of PA.


Maybe you need glasses then. Find me a picture from the last 3 years of a single G3 in use in a combat setting wether it be on LoC or WoT. G3 is not in common use anymore. Only carried by sentries at times, even they mostly carry type 56s. PA has been ordering and receiving new Type 56-IIMs and other modernized AKs constantly for a few years now, but haven’t made a single order for new G3s, where do you think these AKs are going?

Even Non-infantry units have phased out G3s, I visited Swat in *2016* where non-inf units had taken security charge to free up infantry units, didn’t see a single G3 anywhere in sight, andthey were all artillery boys. I visited LOC side in 2020, bridging units had phased out G3s as well, the infantry there hasn’t used G3s for ages anyways. Drive through Rawalpindi, 90% of the sentries are carrying Type 56s. Yes G3s are still in use and you see them once in a while, but I don’t know where you saw 90% of PA using G3s. Even the training is done with Type 56.

Aik to pakistanion ko point marne mein bohot maza ata hai but thori si research karne pe mout parti hay. The G3s are all still in storage and will totally be used in the case of a war, but are they the preferred weapon/weapon of choice? Not anymore, with good reason too, the Type 56-II is better in every way for a modern combat scenario, wether COIN or conventional, simply because of its lighter weight, lower recoil and ability to mount accessories, though PA still does need modern rifles to replace it.

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## HRK

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I think the PA's future rifle is BW21. It leverages the AR-style frame (like a lot of new rifles) but with the roller delayed mechanism the PA's comfortable with. The whole idea sounds like the result of a serious discussion or assessment between GHQ and POF. It's basically a new, original rifle design.


agreed but I think POF should not have discarded gas operated PK-18 and PK-21 designs and should keep refining those designs with the aim to introduce it in International Market.

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## TsAr

HRK said:


> agreed but I think POF should not have discarded gas operated PK-18 and PK-21 designs and should keep refining those designs with the aim to introduce it in International Market.


POF priority is PA first, at the moment they are not in a position to cater to civilian market. I am sure with various agreements signed with Turkish manufacturers there is work going on in the back ground for further enchancements.

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## HRK

TsAr said:


> POF priority is PA first, at the moment they are not in a position to cater to civilian market. I am sure with various agreements signed with Turkish manufacturers there is work going on in the back ground for further enchancements.


bhai I do understand the priority of POF is to fulfil Pak Army demands but keep in mind I am not asking for production of PK-18 & PK-21 designes *but only *for the further refinement of the designs

- this would have kept some of the member POF designing team engage and

- POF would have an original design with IP right to its name with minimum resources.

- Other than this POF would have a product range for both delayed below back trigger system in the form of BW-20 and BW21 & Gas Operated system in the form of PK-18 and PK-21

But after discontinuation of design work on PK-18 and 21 situation is like moving back to the start after covering half of the journey.

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## farooqbhai007

HRK said:


> bhai I do understand the priority of POF is to fulfil Pak Army demands but keep in mind I am not asking for production of PK-18 & PK-21 designes *but only *for the further refinement of the designs
> 
> - this would have kept designing some of the member POF designing team engage and
> 
> - POF would have an original design with IP right to its name with minimum resources.
> 
> - Other than this POF would have product range for both delayed below back trigger system in the form of BW-20 and BW21 & Gas Operated system in the form of PK-18 and PK-21
> 
> But after discontinuation of design work on PK-18 and 21 situation is like moving back to the start after covering half of the journey.


who said work is being discontinued , just because you dont get updates doesnt mean a certain project has been discontinued.


----------



## Super Falcon

Bilal. said:


> If we keep importing and never give our industry a chance we will never produce anything. Even foreign buyers will see that they don’t prefer their own products and never consider them.
> 
> We have 3 rifles that have been designed BW20 and BW21 based on roller delayed mechanism and PK18 based on AR15 (gas operated) we should choose one of these after testing and refining the reliability, accuracy and features.


AR based is a future im very upset with this guy salman selling his old churan in new oack wont work these type of vultures are dangerous for making money in short period

Pak should have started investing in gun manufacturing in 90s


Bilal. said:


> Bhai what is this “look better” logic. Also we don’t use 5.8 ammo.


Again did we used drones in 90s 
Do we had awacs in 90s 

Dont tell we dont use you have to adopt the change to survive


----------



## HRK

farooqbhai007 said:


> who said work is being discontinued , just because you dont get updates doesnt mean a certain project has been discontinued.


Work on PK-18 and PK-21 is discontinued as stated by Salman Ali of POF you can visit his youtube channel in one of latest series he disclose this information.

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## Bilal.

Super Falcon said:


> AR based is a future im very upset with this guy salman selling his old churan in new oack wont work these type of vultures are dangerous for making money in short period
> 
> Pak should have started investing in gun manufacturing in 90s


Without going into debate on what’s better and why. As @farooqbhai007 pointed. AR based PK18 project is still progressing.



> Again did we used drones in 90s
> Do we had awacs in 90s
> 
> Dont tell we dont use you have to adopt the change to survive


What are you trying to say?


HRK said:


> Work on PK-18 and PK-21 is discontinued as stated by Salman Ali of POF you can visit his youtube channel in one of latest series he disclose this information.


Please post the link bro.

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## CatSultan

Zarvan said:


> As it is now fully confirmed that Pakistan has decided to replace G3 with a new standard weapon. For this a board of Army officers led by a Major General will evaluate all major Guns used by leading militaries in the world and one of them will be chosen for Pakistan so it's time to discuss potential candidates and their features.
> By the way MPT-76 are first to come for evaluation.
> @WebMaster @Horus @Oscar @Irfan Baloch @balixd @Icarus @kaonalpha @syedali73 @Sulman Badshah @Wolfhound @nair @SpArK @GURU DUTT @Imran Khan @Arsalan @RescueRanger @Bratva @Slav Defence @ajpirzada @DESERT FIGHTER @


Scar is the best but probably to expensive. But it does use the same caliber as g3 so we wouldn't need to change our supply lines and logistics too much.


----------



## HRK

Bilal. said:


> Please post the link bro.


let me check will post the video

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Super Falcon said:


> AR based is a future im very upset with this guy salman selling his old churan in new oack wont work these type of vultures are dangerous for making money in short period
> 
> Pak should have started investing in gun manufacturing in 90s
> 
> Again did we used drones in 90s
> Do we had awacs in 90s
> 
> Dont tell we dont use you have to adopt the change to survive


Bro, I don't think Salman Ali has the power to tell GHQ what to do or not to do.

Honestly, I think whatever Salman Ali and POF are doing is coming down from GHQ. If GHQ seriously wanted to buy a rifle from abroad, they would've done it. The al-Khalid didn't stop them from buying VT4. The Shahpar-II isn't stopping them from buying CH-4s (and in the PAF's case, TB2s apparently).

If there was a genuine performance and/or reliability improvement over the G-3, the Army would've ordered SCAR H or SiG Sauer. Heck, if the situation was urgent, they would've ordered 100K rifles off-the-shelf without any local production.

If GHQ is listening to Salman Ali, then I say we make Salman Ali the next Prime Minister of Pakistan.

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## HRK

Bilal. said:


> Please post the link bro.





HRK said:


> let me check will post the video



Bro I think I was mistaken about the source, I listen about PK-18 and PK-21 in video recently so getting confused in which video I listen about it so as of now consider my previous posts without source. I will post the video IF and when I find it

@farooqbhai007 ..... FYI

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## Invictus01

I asked Salman Ali a direct question regarding PK18 on one of his videos
According to him PK-18 is history they aren't 
going forward with it

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## Bilal.

Invictus01 said:


> I asked Salman Ali a direct question regarding PK18 on one of his videos
> According to him PK-18 is history they aren't
> going forward with it
> 
> View attachment 807747


@HRK

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## TsAr

Super Falcon said:


> AR based is a future im very upset with this guy salman selling his old churan in new oack wont work these type of vultures are dangerous for making money in short period
> 
> Pak should have started investing in gun manufacturing in 90s
> 
> Again did we used drones in 90s
> Do we had awacs in 90s
> 
> Dont tell we dont use you have to adopt the change to survive


Do you even know when AR was developed before saying it is the future.


Invictus01 said:


> I asked Salman Ali a direct question regarding PK18 on one of his videos
> According to him PK-18 is history they aren't
> going forward with it
> 
> View attachment 807747


I might be wrong but @PanzerKiel mentioned in a thread that army was not satisfied with the performance of these guns.

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## Super Falcon

Bilal. said:


> Bhai what is this “look better” logic. Also we don’t use 5.8 ammo.


It means that look beter design and by weigh 4th of tge gun


TsAr said:


> Do you even know when AR was developed before saying it is the future.
> 
> I might be wrong but @PanzerKiel mentioned in a thread that army was not satisfied with the performance of these guns.


Do you know any other gun which is going to be future laser gun


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## Bilal.

Super Falcon said:


> It means that look beter design and by weigh 4th of tge gun


What is a “look better design”? That criteria will not be judged by just “looking” but by T&E. And which rifle weighs a fourth of it? And do you even know what’s the weight of the BW20 or BW21 for you to complain about it?


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## bhola record

TsAr said:


> I might be wrong but @PanzerKiel mentioned in a thread that army was not satisfied with the performance of these guns.


army isnt the only buyer


----------



## Ghost 125

iLION12345_1 said:


> Maybe you need glasses then. Find me a picture from the last 3 years of a single G3 in use in a combat setting wether it be on LoC or WoT. G3 is not in common use anymore. Only carried by sentries at times, even they mostly carry type 56s. PA has been ordering and receiving new Type 56-IIMs and other modernized AKs constantly for a few years now, but haven’t made a single order for new G3s, where do you think these AKs are going?
> 
> Even Non-infantry units have phased out G3s, I visited Swat in *2016* where non-inf units had taken security charge to free up infantry units, didn’t see a single G3 anywhere in sight, andthey were all artillery boys. I visited LOC side in 2020, bridging units had phased out G3s as well, the infantry there hasn’t used G3s for ages anyways. Drive through Rawalpindi, 90% of the sentries are carrying Type 56s. Yes G3s are still in use and you see them once in a while, but I don’t know where you saw 90% of PA using G3s. Even the training is done with Type 56.
> 
> Aik to pakistanion ko point marne mein bohot maza ata hai but thori si research karne pe mout parti hay. The G3s are all still in storage and will totally be used in the case of a war, but are they the preferred weapon/weapon of choice? Not anymore, with good reason too, the Type 56-II is better in every way for a modern combat scenario, wether COIN or conventional, simply because of its lighter weight, lower recoil and ability to mount accessories, though PA still does need modern rifles to replace it.


 you have written a lengthy " well researched" reply on a totally .... wrong assumption

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## Amaa'n



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## HRK

A new short video of POF BW-21 rifle posted by Salman Ali on his Youtube channel just couples of hours ago

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

HRK said:


> A new short video of POF BW-21 rifle posted by Salman Ali on his Youtube channel just couples of hours ago


It looks great. But it's pretty funny how in the comments people think there's some G3 propaganda happening.

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## HRK

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It looks great. But it's pretty funny how in the comments people think there's some G3 propaganda happening.


Some interesting clarifications by Salman Ali in comment section of this video

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

HRK said:


> Some interesting clarifications by Salman Ali in comment section of this video
> 
> View attachment 808660
> 
> 
> View attachment 808661
> 
> 
> View attachment 808663
> 
> View attachment 808664


I think POF wants to keep developing the BW21 regardless of Army orders. This is very interesting. POF believes that the BW21 is worth backing independently (without Army orders). I am confident now that POF sees a real future in the BW21. It's the future IMO.

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## HRK

HRK said:


> Work on PK-18 and PK-21 is discontinued as stated by Salman Ali of POF you can visit his youtube channel in one of latest series he disclose this information.


Here is the Comment which I was referring to in my quoted post the confusion was related to my memory that I thought it was part of the video which in fact was a clarification by Salman Ali against the a query in comment section of one of his video (video link) 




FYI @farooqbhai007 & @Bilal.

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## TheDarkKnight

iLION12345_1 said:


> Maybe you need glasses then. Find me a picture from the last 3 years of a single G3 in use in a combat setting wether it be on LoC or WoT. G3 is not in common use anymore. Only carried by sentries at times, even they mostly carry type 56s. PA has been ordering and receiving new Type 56-IIMs and other modernized AKs constantly for a few years now, but haven’t made a single order for new G3s, where do you think these AKs are going?
> 
> Even Non-infantry units have phased out G3s, I visited Swat in *2016* where non-inf units had taken security charge to free up infantry units, didn’t see a single G3 anywhere in sight, andthey were all artillery boys. I visited LOC side in 2020, bridging units had phased out G3s as well, the infantry there hasn’t used G3s for ages anyways. Drive through Rawalpindi, 90% of the sentries are carrying Type 56s. Yes G3s are still in use and you see them once in a while, but I don’t know where you saw 90% of PA using G3s. Even the training is done with Type 56.
> 
> Aik to pakistanion ko point marne mein bohot maza ata hai but thori si research karne pe mout parti hay. The G3s are all still in storage and will totally be used in the case of a war, but are they the preferred weapon/weapon of choice? Not anymore, with good reason too, the Type 56-II is better in every way for a modern combat scenario, wether COIN or conventional, simply because of its lighter weight, lower recoil and ability to mount accessories, though PA still does need modern rifles to replace it.


I dont think absence of pictures means its not in use anymore. The reason we got more pictures of AK variants is because of COIN operations in last 10 years. Otherwise for eastern border G3 should be the work horse.

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## Zarvan

TheDarkKnight said:


> I dont think absence of pictures means its not in use anymore. The reason we got more pictures of AK variants is because of COIN operations in last 10 years. Otherwise for eastern border G3 should be the work horse.


And I say don't trust anyone on this. I am pretty sure eventually we would select some foreign rifle to replace G3 and Type 56.

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## Bilal.

HRK said:


> Here is the Comment which I was referring to in my quoted post the confusion was related to my memory that I thought it was part of the video which in fact was a clarification by Salman Ali against the a query in comment section of one of his video (video link)
> View attachment 808675
> 
> FYI @farooqbhai007 & @Bilal.


So the indication is they are developing BW21 as multi-caliber platform. That would be sweet.

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## iLION12345_1

TheDarkKnight said:


> I dont think absence of pictures means its not in use anymore. The reason we got more pictures of AK variants is because of COIN operations in last 10 years. Otherwise for eastern border G3 should be the work horse.


Except absence of pictures wasn’t the reason I said it’s not in common service. I said it’s not in common service because it’s not in common service. Most soldiers on LOC/eastern border have been carrying only AK pattern rifles for several years now. You can pull up any picture, documentary (there’s literally dozens made every year), training exercise, visit from COAS, news report, (or go there yourself as I happened to do many times) and confirm it yourself.

Why would the PA use a G3 over a type 56 when they have the latter available and it’s clearly the better option? I don’t think people realize just how bad of a gun the G3 is for modern use. I’d rather use an old and unmodified Type 56 over a G3 any day.


Zarvan said:


> And I say don't trust anyone on this. I am pretty sure eventually we would select some foreign rifle to replace G3 and Type 56.


Type 56 has been in service for over three decades, Type 56-I is still seen sometimes but has mostly been phased out, Type 56-II and other Modernized AKs are the most common rifles in PA service atm , they’re still buying more in fact. But it is a stop gap until a proper replacement is selected, it’s at least an effective stop gap to G3s and Older Type 56s because they can mount rails, optics and other attachments on these, but they’re definitely not ideal.

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## bhola record

iLION12345_1 said:


> Except absence of pictures wasn’t the reason I said it’s not in common service. I said it’s not in common service because it’s not in common service. Most soldiers on LOC/eastern border have been carrying only AK pattern rifles for several years now. You can pull up any picture, documentary (there’s literally dozens made every year), training exercise, visit from COAS, news report, (or go there yourself as I happened to do many times) and confirm it yourself.
> 
> Why would the PA use a G3 over a type 56 when they have the latter available and it’s clearly the better option? I don’t think people realize just how bad of a gun the G3 is for modern use. I’d rather use an old and unmodified Type 56 over a G3 any day.
> 
> Type 56 has been in service for over three decades, Type 56-I is still seen sometimes but has mostly been phased out, Type 56-II and other Modernized AKs are the most common rifles in PA service atm , they’re still buying more in fact. But it is a stop gap until a proper replacement is selected, it’s at least an effective stop gap to G3s and Older Type 56s because they can mount rails, optics and other attachments on these, but they’re definitely not ideal.


question do all units get tactically modified aks or just specialized ones?

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## iLION12345_1

bhola record said:


> question do all units get tactically modified aks or just specialized ones?


The acquisitions are made by regiments themselves and not as a whole by the army, the army from the center just gives certain guidelines and lists of items within which the acquisitions are to be made, so for example the army says that XYZ is the standard rifle (as AK pattern is right now), and then based on what kind of funds the regiment has, some get type 56-IIs with rails and attachments (most common config atm, similarly there’s a standard for what optics, grips etc are allowed and then the regiments purchase them as needed), some units are modernizing them further with better furniture and stocks, some are also using stock type 56-IIs, most if not all of the regiments in combat zones and LOC will have modified (attachments) rifles, Any regiments caught to be lacking in Armament and not keeping a standard with the rest of the force can be penalized (as in, whoever in the regiment is in charge of maintaining said standards), wether it be guns, ammo, body armor, vehicles etc.

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## Raja Porus

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1484533629426749444
Can anyone identify the rifles at the end?

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## farooqbhai007

Desert Fox 1 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1484533629426749444
> Can anyone identify the rifles at the end?


The body armour shown is the increased protection FC one which has front pelvis and side shoulder protection.
Guns seem to be modified AKs with rails fitted with thermal scopes.

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## JamD

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) 

Whoever let Salman Ali do all of this advertising for POF, kudos to them! Let's hope we see a PAC Salman Ali too

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

JamD said:


> @Bilal Khan (Quwa)
> 
> Whoever let Salman Ali do all of this advertising for POF, kudos to them! Let's hope we see a PAC Salman Ali too


I say this in the most complimentary way, but Salman Ali is a geek. He _loves_ his work and he _loves_ his guns. He's like a Henry Ford. If anyone gives this guy $50 M to go and set up his own small arms company, I'm sure he can go quite far.

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## Zarvan

Desert Fox 1 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1484533629426749444
> Can anyone identify the rifles at the end?


I am more interested in knowing about the scopes. What are these scopes and can any one tell about them.


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## Metal 0-1

Desert Fox 1 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1484533629426749444
> Can anyone identify the rifles at the end?


Good luck retaining the zero with those rails.

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## Great Janjua

Metal 0-1 said:


> Good luck retaining the zero with those rails.


Let them have fun.

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## Iron Shrappenel

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I say this in the most complimentary way, but Salman Ali is a geek. He _loves_ his work and he _loves_ his guns. He's like a Henry Ford. If anyone gives this guy $50 M to go and set up his own small arms company, I'm sure he can go quite far.


And these are the kind of people in which Pakistan should invest in... People who love what they do...


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## Path-Finder

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1498559631358058504

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## TsAr

Path-Finder said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1498559631358058504


maulana ko kon samjhaya keh he has nothing to do with acquisition of weapons.

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## Zarvan

TsAr said:


> maulana ko kon samjhaya keh he has nothing to do with acquisition of weapons.


I know but he can raise voice for it. Trust me he is position he can tell Khan and also discuss with Armed Forces

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## Path-Finder

TsAr said:


> maulana ko kon samjhaya keh he has nothing to do with acquisition of weapons.


do you really think that our Hazrat Derwaish, Muffakir @Zarvan cares where or how it arrives?


----------



## TsAr

Zarvan said:


> I know but he can raise voice for it. Trust me he is position he can tell Khan and also discuss with Armed Forces


Neither is Khan the end user or this this man, so it does not matter. Its the Army that has to take a decision

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## _NOBODY_

POF X​





@JamD @PanzerKiel @Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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## JamD

_NOBODY_ said:


> POF X​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @JamD @PanzerKiel @Bilal Khan (Quwa)


Jaan Rambo ki bharpoor kamyabi kay baad, ab apki khidmat main paish hai "Jaan Vicks".

On a serious note, this one guy is doing a better job at advertising than all of GIDS:

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## Raja Porus

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1501076245689294848

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## Madni Bappa

Salman sahb loosing hair 😢

Army should legit give this rifle a chance. Putting it into service will help Iron out the kinks


Desert Fox 1 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1501076245689294848

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## PanzerKiel



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## _NOBODY_

@PanzerKiel Sir have you gotten any chance to play with BW-20?

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## Madni Bappa

We're wasting Raheel Shareef on Saudi. He should be working for Pakistan in some capacity.

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## Maula Jatt

Madni Bappa said:


> We're wasting Raheel Shareef on Saudi. He should be working for Pakistan in *some capacity*.


COAS 2.0?


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## fitpOsitive

atatwolf said:


> Review of the new MPT


Seems like a copy of an Italian gun.


----------



## Inception-06



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## RAMPAGE

PanzerKiel said:


> View attachment 822789
> View attachment 822790
> View attachment 822791
> View attachment 822792
> View attachment 822793
> View attachment 822794
> View attachment 822795
> View attachment 822796


Care to speculate why there is an extra inch and a half between the stock and the grip? That is unusually long. Perhaps it has to do with the recoil dampening measures to which Mr Salman alluded?

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## Invictus01

Inception-06 said:


> View attachment 823198


Lol

Who mount's a thermal sight on a Chinese 
aftermarket dust cover rail that doesn't even hold zero?
Even if it does hold zero which I doubt it does considering you have to remove the dust cover to clean the rifle 
AK can hardly manage a 2MOA group at 100 meters 

We need serious people that know a thing or two about small arms to be incharge of acquisitions in the army
Piss poor Job tbh

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## blain2

Invictus01 said:


> Lol
> 
> Who mount's a thermal sight on a Chinese
> aftermarket dust cover rail that doesn't even hold zero?
> Even if it does hold zero which I doubt it does considering you have to remove the dust cover to clean the rifle
> AK can hardly manage a 2MOA group at 100 meters
> 
> We need serious people that know a thing or two about small arms to be incharge of acquisitions in the army
> Piss poor Job tbh


Ok, think through the situation on hand. There are hundreds of thousands of these rifles in service in quite a few hotspots i.e. Balochistan and FATA etc. The terrorists move at night time so thermal imaging is needed to keep an eye. Given the high cost of such scopes, only a few get this at the section level (not every Jawan gets one). As such even if the rifle cannot hold zero with the sight on, getting shots in the vicinity of the terrorists puts them on notice and has a deterrence value which saves lives. I don't care who it is, if they are moving at night time and getting rounds impacting in the direction of where they are coming from, they are pausing. Thus the sight has efficacy even if limited (removing, re-zeroing etc. are all valid but there are bigger problems at hand than these issues.)

Also, I can guarantee the ones working on these enhancements are quite knowledgable about the topic on hand but are having to work around multiple constraints. Most foreign small arms manufacturers who have been to Pakistan to field their wares have come away realizing that Pakistani army does a pretty in-depth and detailed analysis and knows what it wants (but perhaps is not willing to pay the price for what it wants.).

The answer to your post would be to replace the significant inventory of small arms in use to give the troops a more stable platform for thermal sites. In the short term at least that is not an option. So "juggad" is the solution till then.

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## MastanKhan

Invictus01 said:


> Lol
> 
> Who mount's a thermal sight on a Chinese
> aftermarket dust cover rail that doesn't even hold zero?
> Even if it does hold zero which I doubt it does considering you have to remove the dust cover to clean the rifle
> AK can hardly manage a 2MOA group at 100 meters
> 
> We need serious people that know a thing or two about small arms to be incharge of acquisitions in the army
> Piss poor Job tbh



That is possibly a Dragunov sniper rifle.


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## PanzerKiel

MastanKhan said:


> That is possibly a Dragunov sniper rifle.


The first one is Type 56-II assault rifle while in the background is G3A3.

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## Yasser76

PAF will have stealth planes, PN will have nuke subs, Pak Army will still be using G-3....

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## Raja Porus

Invictus01 said:


> Lol
> 
> Who mount's a thermal sight on a Chinese
> aftermarket dust cover rail that doesn't even hold zero?
> Even if it does hold zero which I doubt it does considering you have to remove the dust cover to clean the rifle
> AK can hardly manage a 2MOA group at 100 meters
> 
> We need serious people that know a thing or two about small arms to be incharge of acquisitions in the army
> Piss poor Job tbh


Alot better than not being able to see your enemy at night, while he, on the other hand is equipped with the latest NVGs. Atleast you know where the fire is coming from and you can provide suppressing fire. Morale booster is another factor.

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## Path-Finder



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## Great Janjua

Why not give POF or GIDS a tender for locally modifying the type 56 by army requirements. This will help improve proficiency and R&D for future army gun projects.

Like India's Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) did to their Bulgarian ak types.

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## Great Janjua

I mean right now the best bet would be the Turkish option of MPT 76 with a tot or going along with POF developments which will take quite some time due to rifle tests.

But seriously the Turks are killing the small arms industry I hope we examine their products, especially their lightweight machine guns and rifles. Top-Notch stuff.


7.62mm Battle rifle. 






DMR





5.56mm Machine gun

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Great Janjua said:


> Why not give POF or GIDS a tender for locally modifying the type 56 by army requirements. This will help improve proficiency and R&D for future army gun projects.
> 
> Like India's Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) did to their Bulgarian ak types.
> 
> View attachment 826072
> View attachment 826073


They are using israeli FAB defence accessories.

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## blain2

Great Janjua said:


> I mean right now the best bet would be the Turkish option of MPT 76 with a tot or going along with POF developments which will take quite some time due to rifle tests.
> 
> But seriously the Turks are killing the small arms industry I hope we examine their products, especially their lightweight machine guns and rifles. Top-Notch stuff.
> 
> 
> 7.62mm Battle rifle.
> View attachment 826123
> 
> 
> 
> DMR
> View attachment 826121
> 
> 
> 5.56mm Machine gun
> View attachment 826122


These Turkish rifles were trialed too. Don't think they made the cut (could have been rejected on quality, high pricing, no local manufacturing etc. etc.)

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## Path-Finder




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## Zarvan

Laser guns will come and become an outdated technology we still be using G3.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Zarvan said:


> Laser guns will come and become an outdated technology we still be using G3.


When giant mechs/robots become a thing, POF will enlarge the G3 for it.

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## _NOBODY_

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> When giant mechs/robots become a thing, POF will enlarge the G3 for it.


I can imagine a Zaku from Gundam wielding a gigantic G3 lol.

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## TsAr

Zarvan said:


> Laser guns will come and become an outdated technology we still be using G3.


Stop watching star wars please.

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## Super Falcon

Pak army taking too long to decide a gun but fc Balochistan already inducted VKS 100 Assault rifles


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## Mig hunter

I think the discussion should be routed to new development of rifle and BW 20 and 21. This induction of rifles is 100 % dead..


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## Path-Finder

M4 is being phased out now. this will trigger a global re-assessment of calibres.

for PA it makes the right choice to consider 6.8x51

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## Raja Porus

Path-Finder said:


> M4 is being phased out now. this will trigger a global re-assessment of calibres.
> 
> for PA it makes the right choice to consider 6.8x51


Waiting for this thread to get spammed now

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## Path-Finder

I agree AK and the round it fired should be laid to rest now.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

G3 best.

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## PWFI

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> G3 best.


lahooooowla wala quwata ila bila @Zarvan


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> I agree AK and the round it fired should be laid to rest now.


It shouldn't. Because many Ukraine soldiers are also using AK


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## Tomcats

When was the G3 replaced/phased out for the Type 56-2, to my knowledge it was during the WoT period so i am guessing 2007-2012?
Also, why was such an aged rifle chosen, at that time even China had ditched the weapon far long ago in favor for the Type 81, so despite that why was the Type 56 selected?
This then leads me to my other question, is it possible that the type 56 is merely an ultra cheap interim rifle?


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> It shouldn't. Because many Ukraine soldiers are also using AK


Oh Hazrat @Zarvan

اپنی درویشی تے مفکری نو ہاتھ پاؤ . ہن نہ کلاشنکوو تے اودھی گولی وچ جان رہی . ہون نوی ناٹو کی بندوق تے گولی آن گی وی تے کیدا چول دوجی جنگے عظیم کی بندوق تے گولی چاسی ؟ ہوں تگڑی گولی تے بندوق دی لوڑ وے مففکر ​

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## Mahabahu kaunteya

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> They are using israeli FAB defence accessories.


Now , an Indian firm called sss defence has supplied these conversion kits to the army .
First lot of 100, probably will order more


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Blueindian said:


> Now , an Indian firm called sss defence has supplied these conversion kits to the army .
> First lot of 100, probably will order more


Can buy these for 2 or 3 thousand in Pak lol.

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## Mahabahu kaunteya

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Can buy these for 2 or 3 thousand in Pak lol.


Okay , fine


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## MisterSyed

new rifle coming or no?


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## Vergennes

So it's been nearly 7 years this thread has been created and Pakistan still hasn't chosen a new assault rifle. Missed the old days of trolling zarvan who told us few years back how the Scar won and that money wasn't a problem.

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## iLION12345_1

Tomcats said:


> When was the G3 replaced/phased out for the Type 56-2, to my knowledge it was during the WoT period so i am guessing 2007-2012?
> Also, why was such an aged rifle chosen, at that time even China had ditched the weapon far long ago in favor for the Type 81, so despite that why was the Type 56 selected?
> This then leads me to my other question, is it possible that the type 56 is merely an ultra cheap interim rifle?


It might have been a smart choice. I would guess the main reason was rifle accessories, someone in the PA realized that getting a relatively cheaper rifle and giving each soldier proper rifle accessories might be more effective than buying more expensive rifles and sending them out stock. Sure the Type 56-II is cheap, but have you noticed the fact that all PA soldiers now use them with optics, slings, grips etc and several units are also getting modernized polymer furniture with the AK-203 style stocks on their AKs. This is still a major upgrade over a G3 which is not only unwieldy but also didn’t have any room for accessories (at least in the PA). 

it might also be an “interim” rifle, but it’s going to stay for a while, PA has other priorities for its funds right now, we will see an eventual replacement, hopefully one that; is homegrown. PA did try the first offering that came out of POF but it didn’t pass trials, now there’s a second offering, not sure if they’ll try it.

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## Oldman1

MisterSyed said:


> new rifle coming or no?


Yes this is it.


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## RescueRanger

MisterSyed said:


> new rifle coming or no?


In trials - can’t say which one will be considered at this point - anyone who says otherwise is not being honest.

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## Path-Finder

Oldman1 said:


> Yes this is it.


he meant the 7 year old trials and its final contenders being chosen. as for M5, I doubt this will be offered to Pakistan. But what do I know.

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## Metal 0-1

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> G3 best.


If they can do something about it's furniture and roller delayed action

Sure



Path-Finder said:


> he meant the 7 year old trials and its final contenders being chosen. as for M5, I doubt this will be offered to Pakistan. But what do I know.


There shouldn't be any doubts

1st That thing is 38K $ a pop

2nd The action of the rifle itself is classified


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## MisterSyed

Metal 0-1 said:


> If they do something about it's furniture and roller delayed action
> 
> Sure
> 
> 
> There shouldn't be any doubts
> 
> 1st That thing is 38K $ a pop
> 
> 2nd The action of the rifle itself is classified


how much is a scar L or Ak103?? a piece?

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## Metal 0-1

MisterSyed said:


> how much is a scar L or Ak103?? a piece?


Scar is around 4500

AK 103s are dirt cheap 500-700$

But if you buy custom AK that's like 1000 -2000

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## blain2

Its almost a $500M investment in uplift of POF facilities plus licensing that Pakistan has to fork out to switch to the next generation weapon system for infantry. The government has no money for this. Thus variants of G-3, AKs with 3rd party add-ons will continue.

With 60% of the defence budget being funded through loans instead of homegrown revenue generation, one can imagine the principle + interest implications of such a venture on an economy which is already extremely stressed.



Metal 0-1 said:


> Scar is around 45000
> 
> AK 103s are dirt cheap 500-700$
> 
> But if you buy custom AK that's like 1000 -2000


I think you have one extra zero in your price. The SCAR is in the range of $3500-$4500 at retail pricing in the civilian market. For militaries, the unit cost would be lower.

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## Mahabahu kaunteya

India will reorder 73000 sig 716 , even though galil is now made in India by plr systems with joint venture with IWI 




A range of products made by plr at gwalior factory of theirs



blain2 said:


> Its almost a $500M investment in uplift of POF facilities plus licensing that Pakistan has to fork out to switch to the next generation weapon system for infantry. The government has no money for this. Thus variants of G-3, AKs with 3rd party add-ons will continue.
> 
> With 60% of the defence budget being funded through loans instead of homegrown revenue generation, one can imagine the principle + interest implications of such a venture on an economy which is already extremely stressed.
> 
> 
> I think you have one extra zero in your price. The SCAR is in the range of $3500-$4500 at retail pricing in the civilian market. For militaries, the unit cost would be lower.


Pardon me for my ignorance but i dare to assume most money is channeled towards procurement of big ticket items like tanks , helis etc .
And small arms take a secondry nature , isn't it ?


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## Metal 0-1

blain2 said:


> Its almost a $500M investment in uplift of POF facilities plus licensing that Pakistan has to fork out to switch to the next generation weapon system for infantry. The government has no money for this. Thus variants of G-3, AKs with 3rd party add-ons will continue.
> 
> With 60% of the defence budget being funded through loans instead of homegrown revenue generation, one can imagine the principle + interest implications of such a venture on an economy which is already extremely stressed.
> 
> 
> I think you have one extra zero in your price. The SCAR is in the range of $3500-$4500 at retail pricing in the civilian market. For militaries, the unit cost would be lower.


Yeah my bad


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## blain2

Blueindian said:


> India will reorder 73000 sig 716 , even though galil is now made in India by plr systems with joint venture with IWI
> View attachment 846197
> 
> A range of products made by plr at gwalior factory of theirs
> 
> 
> Pardon me for my ignorance but i dare to assume most money is channeled towards procurement of big ticket items like tanks , helis etc .
> And small arms take a secondry nature , isn't it ?


That also but for as long as the G-3 assembly is alive and kicking out variants along with outright purchases of AK variants from various Eastern European countries, it is a matter of letting things go because current needs are being met, however looking ahead, decisions are pending.

Fortunately for Pakistan, we never switched from 7.62x51 to 5.56 in our production line and as you can see the 7.62 round's efficacy is still relevant so this transition, in which Pakistan ended up buying a relatively smaller number of 5.56 Carbines from Colt for our Special Forces, was avoided otherwise we would have seriously been in a difficult spot being forced to transition back from 5.56mm to a more potent round etc.

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## Sayfullah

blain2 said:


> Its almost a $500M investment in uplift of POF facilities plus licensing that Pakistan has to fork out to switch to the next generation weapon system for infantry. The government has no money for this. Thus variants of G-3, AKs with 3rd party add-ons will continue.
> 
> With 60% of the defence budget being funded through loans instead of homegrown revenue generation, one can imagine the principle + interest implications of such a venture on an economy which is already extremely stressed.
> 
> 
> I think you have one extra zero in your price. The SCAR is in the range of $3500-$4500 at retail pricing in the civilian market. For militaries, the unit cost would be lower.


Can’t private sector be invited to invest in POF and POF instead of exclusively focusing on military, also make weapons for civilians and export to other countries? $500M isn’t that much if we can get private sector to invest into POF and they make guns using POF facilities and sell to customers they find. POF should be part privatized and make a plan to become profitable so it’s not reliant on government budget and can progress and act on its own similar to big gun companies like H&K or Colt.

Big gun makers in Dara should also be persuaded to set up bigger gun factories in Pakistan and get Hugh quality materials from POF. These gun makers should be helped to make products and they export and sell their products. Many very rich gun makers live in Dara and with the right government support we can have many private companies like H&K and Colt pop up out of Dara who can develop weapons for our army and raise our exports.

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## MisterSyed

Metal 0-1 said:


> Scar is around 4500
> 
> AK 103s are dirt cheap 500-700$
> 
> But if you buy custom AK that's like 1000 -2000


Scar is expensive. I don't think PA will choose it as a Primary weapon though. AK103s Maybe? Maybe not???


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## Metal 0-1

MisterSyed said:


> Scar is expensive. I don't think PA will choose it as a Primary weapon though. AK103s Maybe? Maybe not???


AK-103 with TOT and proper machining would be a good choice. If they chose to do it

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## blain2

Jf-17 block 3 said:


> Can’t private sector be invited to invest in POF and POF instead of exclusively focusing on military, also make weapons for civilians and export to other countries? $500M isn’t that much if we can get private sector to invest into POF and they make guns using POF facilities and sell to customers they find. POF should be part privatized and make a plan to become profitable so it’s not reliant on government budget and can progress and act on its own similar to big gun companies like H&K or Colt.
> 
> Big gun makers in Dara should also be persuaded to set up bigger gun factories in Pakistan and get Hugh quality materials from POF. These gun makers should be helped to make products and they export and sell their products. Many very rich gun makers live in Dara and with the right government support we can have many private companies like H&K and Colt pop up out of Dara who can develop weapons for our army and raise our exports.


Honestly, this has been tried a few times in the past. The reality is that for Darra manufacturers to make Mil.standard weaponry is not possible for various reasons including the fact that there are too many small shops which cannot scale to meet the demands of the government and with investment money in short supply, which is needed to upgrade and standardize their production/assembly lines, the easiest route would be to give this infusion to POF.

Private sector has to see incentives from the government. Not very many are forthcoming.

Big gun manufacturers have offered licensed production including CZ, Colt, MKEK etc. but all of these are expensive propositions for which Pakistan has no money currently. This has been a start and stop process because the urgency is not extreme given kaam chal raha hai.

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## Zarvan

blain2 said:


> That also but for as long as the G-3 assembly is alive and kicking out variants along with outright purchases of AK variants from various Eastern European countries, it is a matter of letting things go because current needs are being met, however looking ahead, decisions are pending.
> 
> Fortunately for Pakistan, we never switched from 7.62x51 to 5.56 in our production line and as you can see the 7.62 round's efficacy is still relevant so this transition, in which Pakistan ended up buying a relatively smaller number of 5.56 Carbines from Colt for our Special Forces, was avoided otherwise we would have seriously been in a difficult spot being forced to transition back from 5.56mm to a more potent round etc.


One of the major lesson of Ukraine Russia war is that you should have your infantry equipped. Better assault rifles, better scopes, better night and thermal vision scopes system which are mounted on helmets. Plus good light weight anti tank weapons.

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## Reichmarshal

Zarvan said:


> One of the major lesson of Ukraine Russia war is that you should have your infantry equipped. Better assault rifles, better scopes, better night and thermal vision scopes system which are mounted on helmets. Plus good light weight anti tank weapons.


the actual lesson is
man-portable anti-tank weapons

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## Zarvan

Reichmarshal said:


> the actual lesson is
> man-portable anti-tank weapons


They are one part. Another major advantage which is also clear is Ukraine soldier was better equipped. From rifle to scopes and night vision to other gear

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## RescueRanger

Reichmarshal said:


> the actual lesson is
> man-portable anti-tank weapons


Forward observers + agile well equipped infantry units are the future of combat, throw in drones and roving munitions and you can have a good old Mexican stand-off.

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## Reichmarshal

RescueRanger said:


> Forward observers + agile well equipped infantry units are the future of combat, throw in drones and roving munitions and you can have a good old Mexican stand-off.



The real reason why this war has progressed so badly for both Russia n Ukraine is the simple reason that this war is largely being fought between conscripts, who have performed miserably on the battlefield. and in most cases have deserted their positions without putting up any sort of fight.
where ever regular army has been fielded it has largely wiped the floor with the oppisition.

So wt it tells us is that to win any sort of conflict u need well-trained properly equipped and supported soldiers/army.

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## Reichmarshal

Zarvan said:


> They are one part. Another major advantage which is also clear is Ukraine soldier was better equipped. From rifle to scopes and night vision to other gear


don't know about that, at the start of the conflict both were at the same level equipment-wise, would say the Russians were better quipped.....but with the western help, the Ukrainian forces have now started to overtake the Russians equipment-wise.


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## Zarvan

Some really good products from KaleKalip the Turkish company. They are making some seriously good products









KALE KALIP | KCR762 16” Infantry Rifle


KCR762




www.kalekalip.com.tr


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## Zarvan

Turkey is our way forward for small arms also. Even if they are not exactly according to our demands then soon they will be. We need joint collaboration with them.


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## CrazyZ

Zarvan said:


> Turkey is our way forward for small arms also. Even if they are not exactly according to our demands then soon they will be. We need joint collaboration with them.


One thing POF can do is to enhance its manufacturing machinery (China and Germany are the leaders here). With better machinery......POF can make quality knocks offs of AR, AK.....or even SCAR. The newest PLA service rifle is very similar to HK416 (AR) platform......which is not a bad thing. Even POF G3 can be improved in quality, if POF had bettery machinery. Industrial collaboration with China is the best starting point, IMO.

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## Thəorətic Muslim

blain2 said:


> Honestly, this has been tried a few times in the past. The reality is that for Darra manufacturers to make Mil.standard weaponry is not possible for various reasons including the fact that there are too many small shops which cannot scale to meet the demands of the government and with investment money in short supply, which is needed to upgrade and standardize their production/assembly lines, the easiest route would be to give this infusion to POF.



The same is true for the Japanese defense industry. They're not making 100,000 Howa assault rifles every year but a total spread over a span of 10+ years so the local craftsmen/women are able to preserve their knowledge.

There's easily a market for Dara custom guns in the US. Pakistanis just suck at entrepreneurship. With the military having a hard on for foreign equipment over nurturing local talent. Just look at the shitshow defense exhibits being put on.

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## blain2

Thəorətic Muslim said:


> The same is true for the Japanese defense industry. They're not making 100,000 Howa assault rifles every year but a total spread over a span of 10+ years so the local craftsmen/women are able to preserve their knowledge.
> 
> There's easily a market for Dara custom guns in the US. Pakistanis just suck at entrepreneurship. With the military having a hard on for foreign equipment over nurturing local talent. Just look at the shitshow defense exhibits being put on.


I have been around the Darra guns. They are not built to our military specifications. Exporting to some gun shops in the US for civilians is quite different than supplying to the military. You are right, Darra should market their wares to the US market and be better at it.

Unless you have seen the trials that the military has to put these weapons through, it is hard to explain why the Darra made weapons don't make the grade. As an example, in our bakeoffs, the Darra-made barrels and their actions would just melt during firing or completely freeze and become inoperable during cold tests. As such, the military either prefers licensed production or outright purchases from renowned manufacturers in the US (Colt) or Russia/China because their quality is so much better.

Our options are one of two. Either the state factories upgrade and deliver or you invest in the private sector. Darra could become a part of the latter but after a lot of consolidation and QC being put in place.

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## merzifonlu

It is not enough to maintain a qualified workforce. The products need to be more qualified all the time. This is possible both with a very selective domestic demand and with exports. Two conditions must be met, one alone is not enough. Quality is constantly improving in our small arms industry, as our people are brutally selective towards domestic production. Due to the increased quality, this industry is now expected to produce large-caliber machine guns as well. As an example, SSB asked Sarsılmaz to produce a domestic variant of the M197 20 mm gatling gun.

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## musti

Zastava M21 is fine rifle. Simple reliable and cost effective.

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## MastanKhan

Thəorətic Muslim said:


> The same is true for the Japanese defense industry. They're not making 100,000 Howa assault rifles every year but a total spread over a span of 10+ years so the local craftsmen/women are able to preserve their knowledge.
> 
> There's easily a market for Dara custom guns in the US. Pakistanis just suck at entrepreneurship. With the military having a hard on for foreign equipment over nurturing local talent. Just look at the shitshow defense exhibits being put on.



Hi,

Amazing that you are comparing the work and quality of japanese to the those from Dara.

Dara equipment is 3rd rate---in quality and manufacturing as well.

Your lack of experience with weapons speaks out loud---.

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## Thəorətic Muslim

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Amazing that you are comparing the work and quality of japanese to the those from Dara.
> 
> Dara equipment is 3rd rate---in quality and manufacturing as well.
> 
> Your lack of experience with weapons speaks out loud---.



Age is impacting your comprehension uncle.

My comment was how Japan spreads out their defense acquisitions across multiple years for companies to maintain their technical knowhow. Dara gun makers are no less talented.

Improving the quality of Dara supplies and a few agents to work with the ATF will easily open the door for collectors to buy the ridiculous designs.


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## HRK



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## farooqbhai007

POF stall at D&S 2022 Expo , 
What appears to be a new variant of BW20 chambered in 7.62 x 39 i think (or is it 5.56) , in addition to BW20 chambered in the 7.62 x 51,

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## TsAr

Thəorətic Muslim said:


> The same is true for the Japanese defense industry. They're not making 100,000 Howa assault rifles every year but a total spread over a span of 10+ years so the local craftsmen/women are able to preserve their knowledge.
> 
> There's easily a market for Dara custom guns in the US. Pakistanis just suck at entrepreneurship. With the military having a hard on for foreign equipment over nurturing local talent. Just look at the shitshow defense exhibits being put on.


Darra guns are shit........They have zero experience in metallurgy and latest machinery. You talk about guns they cannot even make decent 9mm bullets.

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## farooqbhai007

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1567217222073851908

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## Sifar zero

farooqbhai007 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1567217222073851908


A new polymer mag plus a pictanny rail would be great improvements on this.


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## farooqbhai007

Sifar zero said:


> A new polymer mag plus a pictanny rail would be great improvements on this.


rail is there on all 4 sides , on 3 sides it is covered with detachable ar style handguard that is fitted on the rails.

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## TsAr

Just heard that there is also a private player apart from POF vying for the next PA rifle, @PanzerKiel

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## farooqbhai007

TsAr said:


> Just heard that there is also a private player apart from POF vying for the next PA rifle, @PanzerKiel


Which calibre ? 7.62x39 replacement one or 7.62x51 replacement one

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## Sifar zero

TsAr said:


> Just heard that there is also a private player apart from POF vying for the next PA rifle, @PanzerKiel


Is the player Pakistani??


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## Abramar

Sifar zero said:


> A new polymer mag plus a pictanny rail would be great improvements on this.


Salman Ali (works for POF), said that under the polymer cover, it's a quad rail.

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## TsAr

farooqbhai007 said:


> Which calibre ? 7.62x39 replacement one or 7.62x51 replacement one


Multiple caliber, but lets see..... @PanzerKiel please elaborate more then the heart emoji plz

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## Zarvan

TsAr said:


> Just heard that there is also a private player apart from POF vying for the next PA rifle, @PanzerKiel


I am still of the opinion that either getting Turkish Guns specially of company Kale and Kalip is the way forward. Getting its Gun with TOT and then further working with them to develop our R & D and designing new weapons in Pakistan is the way forward.






































KALE KALIP | HOMEPAGE


HOMEPAGE




www.kalekalip.com.tr




@Hakikat ve Hikmet


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## CLUMSY

Zarvan said:


> I am still of the opinion that either getting Turkish Guns specially of company Kale and Kalip is the way forward. Getting its Gun with TOT and then further working with them to develop our R & D and designing new weapons in Pakistan is the way forward.
> 
> View attachment 878561
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> KALE KALIP | HOMEPAGE
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> HOMEPAGE
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> www.kalekalip.com.tr
> 
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> @Hakikat ve Hikmet


These look very good, im not sure if inducting 5.56 into PA infantry weapons would be very wise though. Otherwise these look excellent especially for SF, would be a great replacement to aging m4a1s.


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## Zarvan

CLUMSY said:


> These look very good, im not sure if inducting 5.56 into PA infantry weapons would be very wise though. Otherwise these look excellent especially for SF, would be a great replacement to aging m4a1s.


We should produce all of them in Pakistan. 5.56 is used by SSG, SSW and SSG N. Also when I talk about produce assault rifles in Pakistan. I am also keeping in mind that we have Police to equip also. And for Police 5.56 is better choice then 7.62 X 39.

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## CLUMSY

Zarvan said:


> We should produce all of them in Pakistan. 5.56 is used by SSG, SSW and SSG N. Also when I talk about produce assault rifles in Pakistan. I am also keeping in mind that we have Police to equip also. And for Police 5.56 is better choice then 7.62 X 39.


I agree, i am of the opinion that 5.56x45 is superior to 7.62x39 but if we ever choose to induct 5.56 as the standard round we must be very careful.


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## Zarvan

CLUMSY said:


> I agree, i am of the opinion that 5.56x45 is superior to 7.62x39 but if we ever choose to induct 5.56 as the standard round we must be very careful.


For infantry it would always be 7.62 X 51. For Police and Special Forces it would be 5.56 X 45.


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## CLUMSY

Zarvan said:


> For infantry it would always be 7.62 X 51. For Police and Special Forces it would be 5.56 X 45.


7.62x51 is too heavy to be the standard round for pakistan army. It weighs around twice the mass of 7.62x39 and 5.56x45. At most only 1 or 2 soldiers in a squad should have a battle rifle firing such a cartridge. NATO experimented with having 7.62x51 as the standard round but found it to be too heavy and overkill. Whoever can throw down the most lead usually wins a firefight, 7.62x51 makes carrying more ammo difficult. Most western militaries usually have one or two soldiers with battle rifles firing full powered cartridges and the rest have assault rifles with intermediate cartridges.


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## Zarvan

CLUMSY said:


> 7.62x51 is too heavy to be the standard round for pakistan army. It weighs around twice the mass of 7.62x39 and 5.56x45. At most only 1 or 2 soldiers in a squad should have a battle rifle firing such a cartridge. NATO experimented with having 7.62x51 as the standard round but found it to be too heavy and overkill. Whoever can throw down the most lead usually wins a firefight, 7.62x51 makes carrying more ammo difficult. Most western militaries usually have one or two soldiers with battle rifles firing full powered cartridges and the rest have assault rifles with intermediate cartridges.


We have stuck with 7.62 x 51 for infantry for more then 50 years now. It's not going to change. 7.62 X 51 will be for infantry.


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## CLUMSY

Zarvan said:


> For infantry it would always be 7.62 X 51. For Police and Special Forces it would be 5.56 X 45.


7.62x51 is too heavy to be the standard round for pakistan army. It weighs around twice the mass of 7.62x39 and 5.56x45. At most only 1 or 2 soldiers in a squad should have a battle rifle firing such a cartridge. NATO experimented with having 7.62x51 as the standard round bit found it to be too heavy. Whoever can throw down the most lead usually wins a firefight, 7.62x51 makes carrying more ammo difficult. Most western militaries usually have one or two soldiers with battle rifles firing full powered cartridges and the rest have assault rifles with intermediate cartridges.


Zarvan said:


> We have stuck with 7.62 x 51 for infantry for more then 50 years now. It's not going to change. 7.62 X 51 will be for infantry.


Hopefully it will be swapped out for a lighter round. I cant imagine how much collateral damage could be caused in urban areas with such a round


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## Zarvan

CLUMSY said:


> 7.62x51 is too heavy to be the standard round for pakistan army. It weighs around twice the mass of 7.62x39 and 5.56x45. At most only 1 or 2 soldiers in a squad should have a battle rifle firing such a cartridge. NATO experimented with having 7.62x51 as the standard round bit found it to be too heavy. Whoever can throw down the most lead usually wins a firefight, 7.62x51 makes carrying more ammo difficult. Most western militaries usually have one or two soldiers with battle rifles firing full powered cartridges and the rest have assault rifles with intermediate cartridges.
> 
> Hopefully it will be swapped out for a lighter round. I cant imagine how much collateral damage could be caused in urban areas with such a round


For that we would have 5.56 round. 7.62 X 51 is our battle rifle round not for internal operations.


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## Zarvan




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## TsAr

Zarvan said:


> I am still of the opinion that either getting Turkish Guns specially of company Kale and Kalip is the way forward. Getting its Gun with TOT and then further working with them to develop our R & D and designing new weapons in Pakistan is the way forward.
> 
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> KALE KALIP | HOMEPAGE
> 
> 
> HOMEPAGE
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.kalekalip.com.tr
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Hakikat ve Hikmet


Have you used any of the Turkish rifles?


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## Zarvan

TsAr said:


> Have you used any of the Turkish rifles?


What I know is MPT 76 was among one of the best performing rifles in our trials. Sir @PanzerKiel can confirm it with heart emoji reaction on this post. So those who have used it know they work. Turkey just like us was user of G3. And replaced with MPT 76. They are doing good in this industry. Just look at finishing of your Rifle BW 20 and look at their finishing. And in modern warfare both matters. Because the modern machinery has given so much technology that if you make a good gun which has good rate of fire without jamming and can survive in extreme temperatures trust me it would also have really fine finishing.

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## RAMPAGE

Zarvan said:


> I am still of the opinion that either getting Turkish Guns specially of company Kale and Kalip is the way forward. Getting its Gun with TOT and then further working with them to develop our R & D and designing new weapons in Pakistan is the way forward.
> 
> View attachment 878561
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> KALE KALIP | HOMEPAGE
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> HOMEPAGE
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> 
> www.kalekalip.com.tr
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Hakikat ve Hikmet


It is a good thing then that you are not involved in the decision-making. Next time, support your opinion with an argument/reasons.

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## Zarvan

RAMPAGE said:


> It is a good thing then that you are not involved in the decision-making. Next time, support your opinion with an argument/reasons.


Yes decision making. Like not getting MRAP for soldiers for decades and loosing several thousand soldiers. For taking U turn and getting Pakistani into an war which caused 70000 deaths. Like imposing MAFIAS like Nawaz and Bhutto clan on Pakistan. Not to forget 71. So please don't tell me about decision making.


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## RAMPAGE

Zarvan said:


> What I know is MPT 76 was among one of the best performing rifles in our trials. Sir @PanzerKiel can confirm it with heart emoji reaction on this post. So those who have used it know they work. Turkey just like us was user of G3. And replaced with MPT 76. They are doing good in this industry.* Just look at finishing of your Rifle BW 20 and look at their finishing.* And in modern warfare both matters. Because the modern machinery has given so much technology that if you make a good gun which has good rate of fire without jamming and can survive in extreme temperatures trust me it would also have really fine finishing.


I have not seen the production prototype of BW-20. Have you? And what makes you think the pre-production prototype of BW-20 has subpar finishing? Do you even know what finishing is? Finishing is not aesthetic appeal, nor is it a rail over the barrel.



Zarvan said:


> Yes decision making. Like not getting MRAP for soldiers for decades and loosing several thousand soldiers. For taking U turn and getting Pakistani into an war which caused 70000 deaths. Like imposing MAFIAS like Nawaz and Bhutto clan on Pakistan. Not to forget 71. So please don't tell me about decision making.


Stop being thick, Zarvan. We are not discussing MRAP procurement, politics, or the 1971 war.

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## Zarvan

RAMPAGE said:


> It is a good thing then that you are not involved in the decision-making. Next time, support your opinion with an argument/reasons.


As for reasons. Well Turkey in case you failed to notice has massive defence industry which is growing further and further. Turkey also replaced its G3 with MPT 76. Turkey has several companies which are making small arms. Like Kale and Kalip, Sarsilmaz, Canik and others. Many of them have hired people who have worked with companies like FN, Berreta, SIG and others. Plus our R and D of POF sucks and POF can hardly design a new gun on its own which can be of any proper use. Therefore getting TOT and then developing with R and D with Turkey's help plus joint ventures is way forward @RAMPAGE

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## TsAr

Zarvan said:


> As for reasons. Well Turkey in case you failed to notice has massive defence industry which is growing further and further. Turkey also replaced its G3 with MPT 76. Turkey has several companies which are making small arms. Like Kale and Kalip, Sarsilmaz, Canik and others. Many of them have hired people who have worked with companies like FN, Berreta, SIG and others. Plus our R and D of POF sucks and POF can hardly design a new gun on its own which can be of any proper use. Therefore getting TOT and then developing with R and D with Turkey's help plus joint ventures is way forward @RAMPAGE


what issues did you find with the new rifles that POF have introduced like BW20


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## RAMPAGE

Zarvan said:


> As for reasons. Well Turkey in case you failed to notice has massive defence industry which is growing further and further. Turkey also replaced its G3 with MPT 76. Turkey has several companies which are making small arms. Like Kale and Kalip, Sarsilmaz, Canik and others. Many of them have hired people who have worked with companies like FN, Berreta, SIG and others. Plus our R and D of POF sucks and POF can hardly design a new gun on its own which can be of any proper use. Therefore getting TOT and then developing with R and D with Turkey's help plus joint ventures is way forward @RAMPAGE


None of those is a reason not to procure the BW-20. POF's Salman Ali had said the PA likes the BW-20, and it overcomes the shortfalls of the G-3.

By the way, here is a G-3 (HK-53 to be more specific) and an MP5 with furniture that should satisfy your rifle fetish. I suspect this can be put on the BW-20.









TsAr said:


> what issues did you find with the new rifles that POF have introduced like BW20


No sex-appeal.


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## Zarvan

TsAr said:


> what issues did you find with the new rifles that POF have introduced like BW20


Produce 10000 of them as initial batch. Give them to soldiers on LOC, Afghan Border and other areas where we face attack. If soldiers doesn't come crying them ask me.

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## TsAr

Zarvan said:


> Produce 10000 of them as initial batch. Give them to soldiers on LOC, Afghan Border and other areas where we face attack. If soldiers doesn't come crying them ask me.


you did not answer my question?


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## Zarvan

TsAr said:


> you did not answer my question?


I did. I know what Mr Salman is claiming but I am pretty sure he is wrong. And test them in real life. You would hear lot of same issues like jamming, heating up, plus seriously bad ergonomics. Like I said go ahead produce a initial batch of 10000 and put them to test. Soldiers answers after using them for few months will tell you all.

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## CLUMSY

RAMPAGE said:


> I have not seen the production prototype of BW-20. Have you? And what makes you think the pre-production prototype of BW-20 has subpar finishing? Do you even know what finishing is? Finishing is not aesthetic appeal, nor is it a rail over the barrel.
> 
> 
> Stop being thick, Zarvan. We are not discussing MRAP procurement, politics, or the 1971 war.


I have heard from people who have had experience visiting POF factories and western factories that POF uses older machining tools. So it is not far fetched to say that western equipment will have better finishing than local products, not to say our domestic industry makes unreliable weapons but western industries are more upto date. Also might i add the bw20 isnt the only battle rifle contending for being inducted at the moment.


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## Zarvan

CLUMSY said:


> I have heard from people who have had experience visiting POF factories and western factories that POF uses older machining tools. So it is not far fetched to say that western equipment will have better finishing than local products, not to say our domestic industry makes unreliable weapons but western industries are more upto date. Also might i add the bw20 isnt the only battle rifle contending for being inducted at the moment.


They use older tools because you never bothered to update them. Plus the latest technology which world uses will give you both good finish plus a reliable weapon. Go ahead with BW 20. Produce 10000 initial batch give them to soldiers in hotspots and results in 8 months will prove what I am saying.


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## CLUMSY

Zarvan said:


> They use older tools because you never bothered to update them. Plus the latest technology which world uses will give you both good finish plus a reliable weapon. Go ahead with BW 20. Produce 10000 initial batch give them to soldiers in hotspots and results in 8 months will prove what I am saying.


Yep. Equipment needs update asap. In my opinion we need a modular AR like platform.


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## TsAr

Zarvan said:


> I did. I know what Mr Salman is claiming but I am pretty sure he is wrong. And test them in real life. You would hear lot of same issues like jamming, heating up, plus seriously bad ergonomics. Like I said go ahead produce a initial batch of 10000 and put them to test. Soldiers answers after using them for few months will tell you all.


Have you shot the Turkish guns or even POF guns? You are making a claim without any proof? Salman on the other hand has fired thousands of rounds from these guns, I am yet to see a better shooter then him in Pakistan.
You are advocating something without even checking it out. Do you know the merits and demerits of 5.56 and 7.62 and what and why PA wants to go for.
Stop going for anything which is shiny and bling. Guns are tools not some showpiece that they have to look good. Guns only have to perform well.

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## RAMPAGE

CLUMSY said:


> I have heard from people who have had experience visiting POF factories and western factories that POF uses older machining tools. So it is not far fetched to say that western equipment will have better finishing than local products, not to say our domestic industry makes unreliable weapons but western industries are more upto date. Also might i add the bw20 isnt the only battle rifle contending for being inducted at the moment.


Pristine finishing is neither here nor there. In PA trials, AK-103 was the most reliable contender in harsh conditions. I doubt its finishing is as good as FN Scar's.

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## CLUMSY

RAMPAGE said:


> Pristine finishing is neither here nor there. In PA trials, AK-103 was the most reliable contender in harsh conditions. I doubt its finishing is as good as FN Scar's.


Agreed but machinery used makes a very big difference in build quality of rifles.


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## Zarvan

TsAr said:


> Have you shot the Turkish guns or even POF guns? You are making a claim without any proof? Salman on the other hand has fired thousands of rounds from these guns, I am yet to see a better shooter then him in Pakistan.
> You are advocating something without even checking it out. Do you know the merits and demerits of 5.56 and 7.62 and what and why PA wants to go for.
> Stop going for anything which is shiny and bling. Guns are tools not some showpiece that they have to look good. Guns only have to perform well.


Have you ever wondered ? Why most modern rifles which are in use with militaries around the world also look good. No they weren't designed to look good but do their job. But modern technology now makes sure you achieve both. Your argument was valid until 30 years ago. Same goes for all things in the world. Wehther they are cars, phones, mobiles and other things. As for Salman please go ahead produce 10000 as initial batch and give them to soldiers and it would tell how much they work. Yes experience. Turkish rifles did really well in trials and we can work with Turkey to improve them further according to our requirements plus get TOT and R and D at POF and do JV with them


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## RAMPAGE

Zarvan said:


> As for reasons. Well Turkey in case you failed to notice has massive defence industry which is growing further and further. Turkey also replaced its G3 with MPT 76. Turkey has several companies which are making small arms. Like Kale and Kalip, Sarsilmaz, Canik and others. Many of them have hired people who have worked with companies like FN, Berreta, SIG and others. Plus our R and D of POF sucks and POF can hardly design a new gun on its own which can be of any proper use. Therefore getting TOT and then developing with R and D with Turkey's help plus joint ventures is way forward @RAMPAGE








Mpt76 was disqualified in the trials.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

RAMPAGE said:


> View attachment 880361
> 
> 
> Mpt76 was disqualified in the trials.


As far as @Zarvan is concerned, Salman Ali's going to bring the G-3 to every program, every region, and every time period. It's a war between the guy who says the G-3 now sucks, and the guy who says the G-3 is still the best.

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## Metal 0-1

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> As far as @Zarvan is concerned, Salman Ali's going to bring the G-3 to every program, every region, and every time period. It's a war between the guy who says the G-3 now sucks, and the guy who says the G-3 is still the best.


Both are awful


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## RAMPAGE

Metal 0-1 said:


> Both are awful


Zarvan and Salman Ali?


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## Metal 0-1

RAMPAGE said:


> Zarvan and Salman Ali




Idk you tell me

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## CLUMSY

Salman Ali knows so much more than us. Maybe the philosophy behind the design is that its interchangeable enough that weapon production doesnt get derailed.


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## Fawad alam

Just for fun

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## Raja Porus

Fawad alam said:


> Just for fun
> 
> View attachment 880937


@Fawad alam please change your batting style. Way to unorthodox

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## TsAr

RAMPAGE said:


> Zarvan and Salman Ali?


Zarvan vs Salma Ali

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## Raja Porus

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1575452535665704961

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## CLUMSY

Raja Porus said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1575452535665704961


From what im reading on fedarms their customer service and ammunition is horrific. Can only imagine what the rifles would be like.


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## monitor

Wah Industries, USA firm FedArms signs LOU to produce guns​By
News desk
-
September 29, 2022





Wah Industries Limited, a subsidiary of Pakistan Ordnance Factories and M/s FedArms, USA have signed a LOU to establish joint production of AKM series guns (Auto/Semi-Auto). The LOU was signed in presence of POF & WIL Board Members.
According to LOU, M/s FedArms will provide part kits, testing protocols, technical pack, complete process layout in addition to imparting training to WIL/POF workforce. Both the companies have agreed for establishment of assembly of AR 15 and FR 15 Series Guns (Auto/Semi-Auto).



The production line will have the capability to produce 4 x calibers; 9 x 19 mm, 7.62 x 39 mm, 7.62 x 51 mm and 5.56 x 45 mm. It is worth mentioning that the weapon will be supplied to Pakistani end users as well as its exports to friendly countries.
Establishment of Prim er Plant is also a part of LOU. Plant & Machinery for establishment of facility will be provided by M/s FedArm. Capacity of the project will be around 500 Million primers/annum. M/s FedArm are willing to invest in the form of ToT, provisioning of plant and machinery whereas POF/WIL would provide space, manpower and utilities.
Our exports strategy mainly includes high quality products, price competitiveness, short delivery schedules, diversification into the new product lines backed by strong proactive marketing endeavours. Our exports to over 40 countries in the Far East, Middle East, Europe, USA and Africa speak of our success and confidence of customers. POF’s participation in a number of International Defence Exhibitions has also opened new linkages for POF. We are accessible to the entire world through our website www.pof.gov.pk.


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## Path-Finder

Hazrat @Zarvan koi apni derwaishy te mufakry sunao.


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## blain2

Yasser76 said:


> PAF will have stealth planes, PN will have nuke subs, Pak Army will still be using G-3....


You have a point there my friend. Although a small arm, but the scale of its roll-out makes the G-3 replacement financially difficult. This effort to equip 800,000 troops (if Army switches, so will PAF/PN) means we are talking about a $1B investment (Pakistan cannot afford outright purchases so will have to go for local production). In these tight fiscal times, a billion could be better spent on artillery, armor etc. and thus I think the army is looking at retrofitting existing small arms thus the continuous churn by POF and the various options being seen from time to time.



Tomcats said:


> When was the G3 replaced/phased out for the Type 56-2, to my knowledge it was during the WoT period so i am guessing 2007-2012?
> Also, why was such an aged rifle chosen, at that time even China had ditched the weapon far long ago in favor for the Type 81, so despite that why was the Type 56 selected?
> This then leads me to my other question, is it possible that the type 56 is merely an ultra cheap interim rifle?


G-3 was never phased out. It is serving with units to this day and honestly in some ways this has worked out for Pakistan. To get more SMGs at the section level, Type 56s were initially purchased and then later produced by POF. Chinese ditched Type 56 which is a 7.62x39 caliber for a smaller 5.56mm round aping NATO/West. Pakistani PoV is that while 5.56mm is alright for smaller inductions, the battle rifle caliber needs to have more stopping power. Whether that means staying with 7.62x51 or an altogether new, more potent caliber remains to be seen. The Indian induction of Sig 716 is another indication that 5.56mm has not been found very effective due to its limited range etc.
To this day, a G-3 with a decent scope has the ability to deliver rounds effectively with a respectable grouping and do serious damage. Keep in mind, for those interested in Shikar, this is a .308 round which can easily bring down a Nilgai type animal at a decent range. One can easily deduce its effectiveness against a human target.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

blain2 said:


> You have a point there my friend. Although a small arm, but the scale of its roll-out makes the G-3 replacement financially difficult. This effort to equip 800,000 troops (if Army switches, so will PAF/PN) means we are talking about a $1B investment (Pakistan cannot afford outright purchases so will have to go for local production). In these tight fiscal times, a billion could be better spent on artillery, armor etc. and thus I think the army is looking at retrofitting existing small arms thus the continuous churn by POF and the various options being seen from time to time.
> 
> 
> G-3 was never phased out. It is serving with units to this day and honestly in some ways this has worked out for Pakistan. To get more SMGs at the section level, Type 56s were initially purchased and then later produced by POF. Chinese ditched Type 56 which is a 7.62x39 caliber for a smaller 5.56mm round aping NATO/West. Pakistani PoV is that while 5.56mm is alright for smaller inductions, the battle rifle caliber needs to have more stopping power. Whether that means staying with 7.62x51 or an altogether new, more potent caliber remains to be seen. The Indian induction of Sig 716 is another indication that 5.56mm has not been found very effective due to its limited range etc.
> To this day, a G-3 with a decent scope has the ability to deliver rounds effectively with a respectable grouping and do serious damage. Keep in mind, for those interested in Shikar, this is a .308 round which can easily bring down a Nilgai type animal at a decent range. One can easily deduce its effectiveness against a human target.


IMO the PA has a new rifle in mind. It just hasn't signed onto a full-scale program yet because, as you said, shortage of funds and other priorities. However, I think it'll happen and, as @Zarvan has wished, will probably involve Turkish OEMs. Of the suppliers available, the Turkish ones are probably able to offer the best bang for the buck.

That said, I don't think POF will manufacture these new rifles.

With our shortage of funds, it's probably untenable to buy licensing and facilities off-the-shelf; this time around, we'll likely see offset-based deals wherein the foreign OEMs set up shop in Pakistan, source Pakistani labor and inputs, and supply to the armed forces directly.

This might be the best course of action for us in the long run. It removes the armed forces from the defence industry business and, potentially, makes it easier for the Pakistani private sector to get involved (by eliminating the red tape and black tape). It's time for the military to become leaner in the sense that it should focus specifically on fighting and, in turn, leave the industry side to the private sector or at least independently-run state-owned enterprises.

TLDR: With an offset policy, the Army wouldn't need to pay for the local production line. Rather, it says it'll buy 1M rifles over 10 years, and sets a sourcing policy, e.g., built with 100% Pakistani inputs. In response, the OEMs invest in Pakistan (to set up their production lines and follow the sourcing policy) and, basically, supply the Army. In the end, the OEM owns the licensing, IP, etc, but through their Pakistani subsidiary. That Pakistani subsidiary might even start re-exporting, thereby giving the OEM additional revenue, supporting Pakistani jobs, and helping us gain foreign currency (via corporate and income taxes).

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## CLUMSY

I think all of us can agree that this should be the g3 replacement:


----------



## Raja Porus

CLUMSY said:


> I think all of us can agree that this should be the g3 replacement:


The M1 Garand often jammed in 65 and our soldiers sometimes picked up the Indian SLR instead.


----------



## Metal 0-1

Giga Chad Garand

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## merzifonlu

What did the MPT-76 fail to achieve? I wonder now. @Zarvan says the MPT-76 did well in testing. Others say the opposite.

By the way, I need to clear up one thing. The "MPT-76" of that time is not the same as the current MPT-76. As with all industrial new products, MPT-76 has been improved over time. In particular, serious improvements were made in barrel quality.


----------



## RAMPAGE

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IMO the PA has a new rifle in mind. It just hasn't signed onto a full-scale program yet because, as you said, shortage of funds and other priorities. However, I think it'll happen and, as @Zarvan has wished, will probably involve Turkish OEMs. Of the suppliers available, the Turkish ones are probably able to offer the best bang for the buck.
> 
> That said, I don't think POF will manufacture these new rifles.
> 
> With our shortage of funds, it's probably untenable to buy licensing and facilities off-the-shelf; this time around, we'll likely see offset-based deals wherein the foreign OEMs set up shop in Pakistan, source Pakistani labor and inputs, and supply to the armed forces directly.
> 
> This might be the best course of action for us in the long run. It removes the armed forces from the defence industry business and, potentially, makes it easier for the Pakistani private sector to get involved (by eliminating the red tape and black tape). It's time for the military to become leaner in the sense that it should focus specifically on fighting and, in turn, leave the industry side to the private sector or at least independently-run state-owned enterprises.
> 
> TLDR: With an offset policy, the Army wouldn't need to pay for the local production line. Rather, it says it'll buy 1M rifles over 10 years, and sets a sourcing policy, e.g., built with 100% Pakistani inputs. In response, the OEMs invest in Pakistan (to set up their production lines and follow the sourcing policy) and, basically, supply the Army. In the end, the OEM owns the licensing, IP, etc, but through their Pakistani subsidiary. That Pakistani subsidiary might even start re-exporting, thereby giving the OEM additional revenue, supporting Pakistani jobs, and helping us gain foreign currency (via corporate and income taxes).


Why are you discounting the BW-20? It could be a good replacement. Compared to the G3, it is lighter, it has a reduced recoil, and it is more compact. Moreover, according to Mr. Salman Ali, it is cheaper to produce than the G3.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

RAMPAGE said:


> Why are you discounting the BW-20? It could be a good replacement. Compared to the G3, it is lighter, it has a reduced recoil, and it is more compact. Moreover, according to Mr. Salman Ali, it is cheaper to produce than the G3.


We won't know until the Army tests it, if it does at all.

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## RAMPAGE

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> We won't know until the Army tests it, if it does at all.


It is in trials.


----------



## CLUMSY

Raja Porus said:


> The M1 Garand often jammed in 65 and our soldiers sometimes picked up the Indian SLR instead.


Bhai saab imagine the deshad entering a TTP militants heart when he hears the ting 20 metres away, he'll surrender on sight

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## Path-Finder

merzifonlu said:


> What did the MPT-76 fail to achieve? I wonder now. @Zarvan says the MPT-76 did well in testing. Others say the opposite.
> 
> By the way, I need to clear up one thing. The "MPT-76" of that time is not the same as the current MPT-76. As with all industrial new products, MPT-76 has been improved over time. In particular, serious improvements were made in barrel quality.


The whole testing scenario was exposed by an American present in the trials. the American who exposed the 2015/6 trials said that the AR (mind you there were more than one AR type rifle in the trial from various vendors) had the best accuracy consistently. however the other non AR rifles were better in reliability. 

Basically there were few shortlisted manufacturers and there were some MOU signed like one with CZ for example. 


But the thing we can take away from the extensively long procedure is that there was No such a thing as "the best in trials". 

there were shortcomings that were exposed and the manufacturers mostly went back to fix the issues or not. 

the process as it appeared left a void because despite the heavy handedness in testing the year spent testing destroyed the manufacturers products and no further action was taken beyond few aimless MOU.

however a free of cost product seems to have been accepted.


----------



## merzifonlu

Path-Finder said:


> The whole testing scenario was exposed by an American present in the trials. the American who exposed the 2015/6 trials said that the AR (mind you there were more than one AR type rifle in the trial from various vendors) had the best accuracy consistently. however the other non AR rifles were better in reliability.
> 
> Basically there were few shortlisted manufacturers and there were some MOU signed like one with CZ for example.
> 
> 
> But the thing we can take away from the extensively long procedure is that there was No such a thing as "the best in trials".
> 
> there were shortcomings that were exposed and the manufacturers mostly went back to fix the issues or not.
> 
> the process as it appeared left a void because despite the heavy handedness in testing the year spent testing destroyed the manufacturers products and no further action was taken beyond few aimless MOU.
> 
> however a free of cost product seems to have been accepted.


Thank you for answer.

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## HRK

POF's CW-39 RIFLE

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## HRK

POF's CW-39 3rd video

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## Metal 0-1

Looking forward to see POF send some of their new gats to big guntubers like Garand Thumb for a review

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## Raja Porus

HRK said:


> POF's CW-39 RIFLE
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 885702
> View attachment 885703
> View attachment 885704


Soon??


----------



## HRK

Raja Porus said:


> Soon??


it seems an indirect unofficial announcement ....

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## CrazyZ

So CW39 and CW20 will be the new PA rifles.....Finally some resolution. Based on specs they have all the modern rifle features and can be made locally using existing G3 industrial machinery.

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## CrazyZ

RAMPAGE said:


> Why are you discounting the BW-20? It could be a good replacement. Compared to the G3, it is lighter, it has a reduced recoil, and it is more compact. Moreover, according to Mr. Salman Ali, it is cheaper to produce than the G3.


Is it made of aluminum? Gas block looks like Scars. Looks like POF "Scarized" the G3. Probably doesn't have the royalty payments to HK.....that's why its cheaper than G3.


----------



## Destranator

HRK said:


> POF's CW-39 RIFLE
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 885702
> View attachment 885703
> View attachment 885704


Looks like a very stable, low recoil rifle despite using 7.62×39 mm rounds.

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## Bilal.

Let’s see if they build bolt lock back feature like he said a year ago. Looks good. Also if they still go with polymer lower, that will reduce weight and cost.

“The version presented in the pictures is a pre-production prototype, the final version should have a bolt hold open mechanism as well as an ambidextrous magazine release and selector. The prototype has a lower receiver machined from aluminum, the production version is designed to have a polymer lower receiver.”

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## CrazyZ

Destranator said:


> Looks like a very stable, low recoil rifle despite using 7.62×39 mm rounds.


Its the benefit of roller delayed blowback. CW20 with 7.62x51 rounds looks easier to control on full auto then the AK with 7.62x39 rounds in you tube vids.

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## Zarvan

CrazyZ said:


> So CW39 and CW20 will be the new PA rifles.....Finally some resolution. Based on specs they have all the modern rifle features and can be made locally using existing G3 industrial machinery.


No right now POF has developed them. Will Army like them or not is yet to be seen.

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## CrazyZ

Zarvan said:


> No right now POF has developed them. Will Army like them or not is yet to be seen.


I would say main issue will be the quality of the production variants. On paper they check all the boxes.

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## RAMPAGE

@Zarvan Is that a G3?

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## Zarvan

RAMPAGE said:


> @Zarvan Is that a G3?


Yes most probably


----------



## RAMPAGE

Zarvan said:


> Yes most probably


Still not sexy enough?

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## Metal 0-1

RAMPAGE said:


> Still not sexy enough?


It's not the furniture it's G-3's action that is old.


----------



## RAMPAGE

Metal 0-1 said:


> It's not the furniture it's G-3's action that is old.


Hmm, that may have been addressed in the BW20.


----------



## Zarvan

RAMPAGE said:


> Still not sexy enough?


I am more then 100 % sure what will be Army's response after they test first batch

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## Mrc

HRK said:


> POF's CW-39 3rd video
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 885706




This riffle shoots like a breeze atleast from video. Very stable compared to AK.
WONT b surprised if it is adopted

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## RAMPAGE

Mrc said:


> This riffle shoots like a breeze atleast from video. Very stable compared to AK.
> WONT b surprised if it is adopted


They should redesign the upper receiver and handguard such that the cocking tube is covered, and the rifle features a full-length rail at the top. Perhaps they can combine the upper and the handguard into a one-piece upper - as in the FN Scar. It will help distinguish the rifle from the legacy G3 series and increase mounting points and aesthetic appeal.








Something like this.

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## Great Janjua

Its been adopted Salman Ali said we can see it in armys hands soon.

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## RAMPAGE

Great Janjua said:


> Its been adopted Salman Ali said we can see it in armys hands soon.


Where? Did he say it has been adopted in so many words?


----------



## Zarvan

Great Janjua said:


> Its been adopted Salman Ali said we can see it in armys hands soon.


It hasn't been adopted. Army will receive them for testing. They will face months of testing now


----------



## Mrc

Riffle seems to be fully under control even in full auto 
Seems like they have managed the only issue in AK recoil and lack of accuracy especially in auto 
Roller blow back is more reliable than gas operated less maintenance as well 


They need to pump out 60k rounds and check wear on barrel if not already done

I would adopt it...this is good


----------



## ghazi52

,..,
*Global Defense Insight*​
Steyr arms is an Austrian firearms manufacturer. One of its firearms is used by Pakistan Army as a Sniper Rifle. Steyr SSG 69 is a bolt action sniper rifle which was manufactured in 1969. It comes with 3 variants namely SSG 69 P-I, P-II and P-IV.

Pakistan Army is equiped with its P-II variant. This variant of Steyr SSG 69 bears a weight of 4.2kg along with 25.6in barrel length which can accurately fire up-to 4050yd (approx 3.7km). This rifle is unique because it uses .308 Winchester with a 5 round rotary feeding system, although a 10 round staggered box is available as an accessory, which was not caught on for hunting and sniping purposes in WWII era.

Image: Gen. Kiyani firing off Steyr SSG (Sharp Shooter Gun) 69-PII sniper rifle during his visit to Tilla Field Firing Ranges. (Courtesy: Reuters/ISPR/handouts)

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## CLUMSY

CrazyZ said:


> Its the benefit of roller delayed blowback. CW20 with 7.62x51 rounds looks easier to control on full auto then the AK with 7.62x39 rounds in you tube vids.


Recoil control depends on user and how they grip. I can assure you a fully powered cartridge will always recoil more than an intermediate powered catridge on any rifle on average

When are we going to advance past roller delayed blowback. Its annoying and takes up time and energy. Something like the bolt release as seen on the AR platform wouldve been much more practical

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## CrazyZ

CLUMSY said:


> Recoil control depends on user and how they grip. I can assure you a fully powered cartridge will always recoil more than an intermediate powered catridge on any rifle on average
> 
> When are we going to advance past roller delayed blowback. Its annoying and takes up time and energy. Something like the bolt release as seen on the AR platform wouldve been much more practical


I would say the best mechanism for combat rifles to be some sort of gas piston mechanism......but its not a huge leap in performance compared to roller delayed blowback. Sticking with roller delayed blow back would save POF from having to do any major retooling....and the time and cost associated with that.


----------



## SSGOPERATOR



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## CLUMSY

CrazyZ said:


> I would say the best mechanism for combat rifles to be some sort of gas piston mechanism......but its not a huge leap in performance compared to roller delayed blowback. Sticking with roller delayed blow back would save POF from having to do any major retooling....and the time and cost associated with that.


It would but its too big of a hassle by itself, let alone reloading like that in a combat situation. Id rather have POF go through with another system altogether.


----------



## CrazyZ

CLUMSY said:


> It would but its too big of a hassle by itself, let alone reloading like that in a combat situation. Id rather have POF go through with another system altogether.


The best compromise might be to use the CW20/39 for the common infantry man replacing the AK/G3 while developing a a new clone of HK416 or SCAR for low patch production for select units.

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## CLUMSY

CrazyZ said:


> The best compromise might be to use the CW20/39 for the common infantry man replacing the AK/G3 while developing a a new clone of HK416 or SCAR for low patch production for select units.


Yeah, i guess so.


----------



## Scorpiooo

What is CW39 origin


----------



## ghazi52



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## farooqbhai007



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## Super Falcon

Is there any plan to replace out mg 3 lmgs with new better LMG as indians ordered from Israel Meggen LMG and from Belgium mg 7 






Pakistan should now have turk and sino omg but it looks turk has variety of firing NATO caliber bullets so they are better for flexibility

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## Path-Finder

Super Falcon said:


> omg


what's that?

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## Path-Finder

Hazrat @Zarvan ehhh takki jay????

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## That Guy

Path-Finder said:


> what's that?


I think he meant to type LMG.

B


farooqbhai007 said:


> View attachment 889254


Big if true.


----------



## Zarvan

farooqbhai007 said:


> View attachment 889254


To hand it over to Army for trials.


----------



## CrazyZ

Super Falcon said:


> Is there any plan to replace out mg 3 lmgs with new better LMG as indians ordered from Israel Meggen LMG and from Belgium mg 7
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan should now have turk and sino omg but it looks turk has variety of firing NATO caliber bullets so they are better for flexibility


If it ain't broke....don't fix it. MG 3 is the most successful LMG in the world over the last 50 years.

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## MikeZulu

ghazi52 said:


> ,..,
> *Global Defense Insight*​
> Steyr arms is an Austrian firearms manufacturer. One of its firearms is used by Pakistan Army as a Sniper Rifle. Steyr SSG 69 is a bolt action sniper rifle which was manufactured in 1969. It comes with 3 variants namely SSG 69 P-I, P-II and P-IV.
> 
> Pakistan Army is equiped with its P-II variant. This variant of Steyr SSG 69 bears a weight of 4.2kg along with 25.6in barrel length which can accurately fire up-to 4050yd (approx 3.7km). This rifle is unique because it uses .308 Winchester with a 5 round rotary feeding system, although a 10 round staggered box is available as an accessory, which was not caught on for hunting and sniping purposes in WWII era.
> 
> Image: Gen. Kiyani firing off Steyr SSG (Sharp Shooter Gun) 69-PII sniper rifle during his visit to Tilla Field Firing Ranges. (Courtesy: Reuters/ISPR/handouts)


Its being phased out, and is being replaced by SC 76 Thunderbolt


----------



## farooqbhai007

MikeZulu said:


> Its being phased out, and is being replaced by SC 76 Thunderbolt


Not all are being phased out , some are being upgraded with rail mounts so multiple type of scopes can be mounted. There was tender few days back I shared which specifically said indigenous supply of rails for SSG69 along with other guns.

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## Super Falcon

CrazyZ said:


> If it ain't broke....don't fix it. MG 3 is the most successful LMG in the world over the last 50 years.


But times are changed AK 47 is was a best assault rifle in history of any assault rifle but it is now phased out by even Russians


----------



## CrazyZ

Super Falcon said:


> But times are changed AK 47 is was a best assault rifle in history of any assault rifle but it is now phased out by even Russians


AK47 was only good within a couple hundred yards. It lacks the modularity to add scopes (which is common nowadays even for regular infantry). MG3 can be modified with added modern optics......that's why many NATO countries won't replace them anytime soon.


----------



## Bilal.

Pakistani AR15?













__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1588575218532220928

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## Abramar

Bilal. said:


> Pakistani AR15?
> 
> View attachment 894797
> 
> 
> View attachment 894801
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1588575218532220928


Looks to be chambered in 7.62 NATO, so it is closer to an AR10. Even so, it's nothing ground breaking. Also, since we know that the CW39 and BW20 have started production, the Army has seemingly already made their decision. Besides, the AR failed the trials back in the day.


----------



## Sifar zero

farooqbhai007 said:


> Not all are being phased out , some are being upgraded with rail mounts so multiple type of scopes can be mounted. There was tender few days back I shared which specifically said indigenous supply of rails for SSG69 along with other guns.


Where is the tender??


----------



## CLUMSY

Bilal. said:


> Pakistani AR15?
> 
> View attachment 894797
> 
> 
> View attachment 894801
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1588575218532220928


Thats what i meant by saying that the BW20 isnt the only rifle in the game as of now. Yes that is for army, pretty modular. Though yes it is based off of an AR10, its wayy better than the G3 from my experience.

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## CLUMSY

Abramar said:


> Looks to be chambered in 7.62 NATO, so it is closer to an AR10. Even so, it's nothing ground breaking. Also, since we know that the CW39 and BW20 have started production, the Army has seemingly already made their decision. Besides, the AR failed the trials back in the day.


I believe this type has passed.



CrazyZ said:


> If it ain't broke....don't fix it. MG 3 is the most successful LMG in the world over the last 50 years.


Mg3 is too long for maneuvering. Something more compact would be good. Also not sure if mg3 uses disintegrating links. Stuff like the Minimi are lighter and have easier time mounting stuff, also have para configurations which are more comfortable during airborne ops and for when you have to move a lot.


----------



## Bilal.

CLUMSY said:


> Thats what i meant by saying that the BW20 isnt the only rifle in the game as of now. Yes that is for army, pretty modular. Though yes it is based off of an AR10, its wayy better than the G3 from my experience.


What advantage does it bring to the table compared to BW20?


----------



## CLUMSY

Bilal. said:


> What advantage does it bring to the table compared to BW20?


Wish i could tell you, if i used the BW20. I can say that reloading with this is going to be much easier than with the system on the g3 which bw20 also uses. Can work under stress. Probably lighter too? From what ive seen of the BW20 it has more rails thus more modularity in its base version, though i have seen BW20s with keymod handguards. Also not sure if the stock on BW20 is extendable/retractable. At the end of the day we need to see more of each to make a well grounded assumption. Both of these are significant advantages over the g3, lets see what the military has in mind...


----------



## Rana4pak



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## Bilal.

Rana4pak said:


> View attachment 896627


Wow! These look awesome! One concern was that the delayed blowback doesn’t work well with suppressors. Seems BW20 does.

P.S.: middle one seems to be a QD suppressor. Are the suppressors also designed and manufactured by POF?


----------



## Metal 0-1

Rana4pak said:


> View attachment 896627


They look so cursed ngl.

Seems like bubba out G-3


----------



## bananarepublic

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1592351928763428866This is getting out of hand? 
Now this gun called Maverick, DI or short stroke?

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## Bilal.

bananarepublic said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1592351928763428866This is getting out of hand?
> Now this gun called Maverick, DI or short stroke?


DI


----------



## CLUMSY

bananarepublic said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1592351928763428866This is getting out of hand?
> Now this gun called Maverick, DI or short stroke?


Nice to see it in other calibers too. Expected it since its based off AR and is in .308 so it being configured in other calibers makes sense too



Rana4pak said:


> View attachment 896627


Wese at least Type 56-2 has the aesthetic and looks....


----------



## Mrc

These guns need to start showing in our boys hands...

Real test will be on western borders

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## HRK

Another Rifle offer for export & this time by GIDS

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1592480906006368256

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## Bilal.

View attachment 896686

[/QUOTE]


Rana4pak said:


> View attachment 896627



The US flag on the soldier’s helmet though 😑

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## HRK

By POF

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1592496895448215553

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## Bilal.

POF CHF barrel production with GFM machine!

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## AlKardai

HRK said:


> By POF
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1592496895448215553



Are they producing vests as well?

I might join them due to my CAD skills

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## Bilal.

Bilal. said:


> P.S.: middle one seems to be a QD suppressor. Are the suppressors also designed and manufactured by POF?


Got the answer. Yes they are!

Kudos POF and Salman Ali.

Next do a 338 sniper 🙂

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## HRK

[SSG]Q266 said:


> Are they producing vests as well?


NO but HIT Taxila

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## AlKardai

HRK said:


> NO but HIT Taxila


I thought they only produce armoured vehicles?


----------



## HRK

[SSG]Q266 said:


> I thought they only produce armoured vehicles?


no many other products as well

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## ghazi52

..,
POF (Pakistan Ordnance Factory) presents AGIL 127 NULG/J/B RCWS (Remote Control Weapon System) at IDEAS 2022....

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## ghazi52

..,.
Pakistan Ordnance Factories and Wah Industries Limited participated in D&S 2022 - Thailand, August 2022..

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## ghazi52

,..,

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## ghazi52

..,.,
GIDS sighting and optical systems at IDEAS 2022...

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## ghazi52

,.,..,
Baretta is a private Italian arms manufacturing company whose firearms are widely used among Civilians, LEAs, and Military personnel. It produces semi-automatic pistols, revolvers, shotguns, carbines, assault rifles, SMGs, and grenade launchers.

Baretta 92 is a series of semi-automatic pistols produced in 1976 and is still used to date. Baretta 92FS is a variant of Baretta 92 which is used by the Pakistani Military and LEAs. Baretta signed a Letter of Understanding (LoU) with POF at IDEX 2017 in Abu Dhabi for the sales of pistols, shotguns, and apparel in Pakistan.

It has many variants which include 92D, 92G, 92X, 92FS, 92A1, M9A1 & M9A3. POF produces Baretta knockoffs namely PK-09 and POF-X which work remarkably in different terrains.

Read More: New Generation Rifle BW-20 from Pakistan Ordinance Factories

POF-X is a modern self-defense weapon that chambers 9x19mm Parabellum. It’s been produced by POF and sold by WIL. The characteristics of flawless reliability, complete handling safety, great fire capacity, and high accuracy make pistol POFX the ideal firearm for law enforcement use, as well as for personal defense.

Its mag chambers 18+1 rounds which can be released ambidextrous bears fixed front sight but removable rear sights. Another important and classy feature is that it comes with Picatinny rails which can be used for tactical lights or lasers.

Barrel life for this handgun is manufactured with high-quality material which can be used for 10,000 rounds. “We offer complete sales and support for its barrel. You can fire 10,000 rounds and come back. We can have the barrel, locking, blockage, anything that needs to be changed, re-change and you can fire another 10,000 rounds” said Salman Ali (manager Weapons Design – POF).

POF-X was tested rigorously at -40C, in mud, and was fired about 500 rounds in a go and still, its barrel didn’t bend or swollen like the other unlicensed variants by different countries. It is being sold at a one-third price of the other imported weapons currently being used in Pakistan.

About Author

Ismail Mir is a researcher and small arms expert based in Islamabad. He tweets @cruelassassins

,.,..,
Baretta is a private Italian arms manufacturing company whose firearms are widely used among Civilians, LEAs, and Military personnel. It produces semi-automatic pistols, revolvers, shotguns, carbines, assault rifles, SMGs, and grenade launchers.

Baretta 92 is a series of semi-automatic pistols produced in 1976 and is still used to date. Baretta 92FS is a variant of Baretta 92 which is used by the Pakistani Military and LEAs. Baretta signed a Letter of Understanding (LoU) with POF at IDEX 2017 in Abu Dhabi for the sales of pistols, shotguns, and apparel in Pakistan.

It has many variants which include 92D, 92G, 92X, 92FS, 92A1, M9A1 & M9A3. POF produces Baretta knockoffs namely PK-09 and POF-X which work remarkably in different terrains.

Read More: New Generation Rifle BW-20 from Pakistan Ordinance Factories

POF-X is a modern self-defense weapon that chambers 9x19mm Parabellum. It’s been produced by POF and sold by WIL. The characteristics of flawless reliability, complete handling safety, great fire capacity, and high accuracy make pistol POFX the ideal firearm for law enforcement use, as well as for personal defense.

Its mag chambers 18+1 rounds which can be released ambidextrous bears fixed front sight but removable rear sights. Another important and classy feature is that it comes with Picatinny rails which can be used for tactical lights or lasers.

Barrel life for this handgun is manufactured with high-quality material which can be used for 10,000 rounds. “We offer complete sales and support for its barrel. You can fire 10,000 rounds and come back. We can have the barrel, locking, blockage, anything that needs to be changed, re-change and you can fire another 10,000 rounds” said Salman Ali (manager Weapons Design – POF).

POF-X was tested rigorously at -40C, in mud, and was fired about 500 rounds in a go and still, its barrel didn’t bend or swollen like the other unlicensed variants by different countries. It is being sold at a one-third price of the other imported weapons currently being used in Pakistan.

About Author

Ismail Mir is a researcher and small arms expert based in Islamabad. He tweets @cruelassassins

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## ghazi52

,.,.
Turkey made their weapons with high level of quality the technology and very light weight . (Sarsilmaz SAR 56 , 5.56x45mm).

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## Super Falcon

Pakistan ordinance factories BW 20 will replace all G 3 Hopefully but army is considering cavalier groups Maverik multi caliber assault rifle as well which can fire 7.62x51,5.56x45 NATO and 5.54x39 Russian rounds can be used on single gun but BW 20 will replace G 3 for standard 7.62mm round for long range fighting but army will definitely going to get cavaliers Maverik for great flexibility seen it today in Ideas 2022 in Kara hi both guns are ready






GIDA KLASS 786 Was also equally looking better


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## Zarvan

Super Falcon said:


> Pakistan ordinance factories BW 20 will replace all G 3 Hopefully but army is considering cavalier groups Maverik multi caliber assault rifle as well which can fire 7.62x51,5.56x45 NATO and 5.54x39 Russian rounds can be used on single gun but BW 20 will replace G 3 for standard 7.62mm round for long range fighting but army will definitely going to get cavaliers Maverik for great flexibility seen it today in Ideas 2022 in Kara hi both guns are ready
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GIDA KLASS 786 Was also equally looking better


None of the gun have been properly tested. Give them a year to test and then I would ask how much they really work.

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## Super Falcon

Zarvan said:


> None of the gun have been properly tested. Give them a year to test and then I would ask how much they really work.


These have been tested in Pvt defence sectors watchfully eyes this is why they were showcased


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## Path-Finder



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## SSGOPERATOR



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## CLUMSY

Super Falcon said:


> These have been tested in Pvt defence sectors watchfully eyes this is why they were showcased


Military has also seen the testing, lotta military working on this too

General Asim Munir COAS banne ki khushi mein mujh ko Type 56-2 atta farma 😖


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## Signalian

CLUMSY said:


> Military has also seen the testing, lotta military working on this too
> 
> General Asim Munir COAS banne ki khushi mein mujh ko Type 56-2 atta farma 😖


Type-56 is not a bad assault rifle.


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## CLUMSY

Signalian said:


> Type-56 is not a bad assault rifle.


Of course, probably my favorite kalashnikov


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## SSGOPERATOR

President briefed about new rifle series.

@Reichmarshal @blain2 @Horus @PanzerKiel ??

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## Reichmarshal

Ur on this forum n every thing that u need to know is here.....u know more about it then the president ever will

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## Abramar

SSGOPERATOR said:


> President briefed about new rifle series.
> 
> @Reichmarshal @blain2 @Horus @PanzerKiel ??


Seems a good indicator that the Army is going to adopt it. Otherwise, the President would not be involved.

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## SSGOPERATOR

Abramar said:


> Seems a good indicator that the Army is going to adopt it. Otherwise, the President would not be involved.


No Sir I think it was just a regular visit by the President to POF and he was just shown the new rifles.
But you might be correct. PA might choose a rifle from POF in the future.


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## Bilal.

Curious what happened to BW21? Is it basically the same as CW56?


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## python-000

I think these 2 guns will good to Go for production line for PA...

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## python-000




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## Bilal.

LOOOL! Salman Ali bhai roasting the naysayers 😂

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## python-000

Bilal. said:


> LOOOL! Salman Ali bhai roasting the naysayers 😂


Front person is definitely Saman Bhai From POF in Expo 2022 by presenting new weapons to foran delegations...


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## Super Falcon

CLUMSY said:


> Military has also seen the testing, lotta military working on this too
> 
> General Asim Munir COAS banne ki khushi mein mujh ko Type 56-2 atta farma 😖


Hopefully he is on this forum and reading your comment keep you finger crossed you never know


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## CLUMSY

Super Falcon said:


> Hopefully he is on this forum and reading your comment keep you finger crossed you never know


Inshallah

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## _NOBODY_

BW20​

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## blain2

Abramar said:


> Seems a good indicator that the Army is going to adopt it. Otherwise, the President would not be involved.


This seems to be a regular visit by the President. The real conversation is what is happening within GHQ on the small arms induction.

I think if the quality of the BW-20 is at least the same as the current G-3s and with the added benefit of lighter weight and 3 models with interchangeable parts then perhaps the army may be more inclined to induct them.

I would think smaller units like SSG and others are probably already testing these out.

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## ghazi52

.,,.

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## Reichmarshal

ghazi52 said:


> .,,.
> View attachment 903853


Steyr n mp 5 are no more, not even with asf

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## CLUMSY

Reichmarshal said:


> Steyr n mp 5 are no more, not even with asf


Rip aug, wese ASF should consider the A3 variant


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## blain2

Super Falcon said:


> Pakistan ordinance factories BW 20 will replace all G 3 Hopefully but army is considering cavalier groups Maverik multi caliber assault rifle as well which can fire 7.62x51,5.56x45 NATO and 5.54x39 Russian rounds can be used on single gun but BW 20 will replace G 3 for standard 7.62mm round for long range fighting but army will definitely going to get cavaliers Maverik for great flexibility seen it today in Ideas 2022 in Kara hi both guns are ready
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GIDA KLASS 786 Was also equally looking better


Nothing sells better than the own army inducting a system in large numbers. That is the litmus test for BW-20. Otherwise we can go to another 100 defense expositions and no orders will be forthcoming.

Has the army bought into it remains the question.

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## Jango

Reichmarshal said:


> Steyr n mp 5 are no more, not even with asf



MP still uses MP-5


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## Raja Porus

Reichmarshal said:


> Steyr n mp 5 are no more, not even with asf


Not even with signals, ASC etc?

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## Path-Finder

compilation tako ji.


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## SSGOPERATOR



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## Path-Finder

Hazrat @Zarvan , Muffakar koi derwaishy?

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## Bilal.

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat @Zarvan , Muffakar koi derwaishy?


Indeed best year of very good surprises by POF.


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## Path-Finder

Bilal. said:


> Indeed best year of very good surprises by POF.


I was hoping that our Derwaish, Muffakir Hazrat @Zarvan would say something. This guy stood in the way of FN SCAR

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> I was hoping that our Derwaish, Muffakir Hazrat @Zarvan would say something. This guy stood in the way of FN SCAR


I am pretty sure this POF thing won't work. Our only way out is joint ventures with Turkey on assault rifles


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> I am pretty sure this POF thing won't work. Our only way out is joint ventures with Turkey on assault rifles


Oh Sarkar if it passes the tests and it performs under the criteria then whats the issue. paisa kol koi nhi te baroon khe swahga hi hun milsi

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## ghazi52

.,.,.,

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1609184824094515202

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## ghazi52

..,.,.,.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1607255009158201345

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## Path-Finder

POF has done it. its better thank AK in shooting.

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## Kompromat

BW-20, CW-39 and CW-556 are excellent mutations. The missing piece here is for the Army to commit to comprehensive trials and contribute to R&D for developing a final production variant of these rifles.

Armed Forces desperately need an improved and modern rifle. Given the current state of the economy, these rifles fit the bill.

Brochure is attached with high quality pics. @blain2 @PanzerKiel

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## CLUMSY

Path-Finder said:


> POF has done it. its better thank AK in shooting.


Looks good but a standard type 56 isnt really that difficult to beat, an AK-74M or an AK-103 with the standard muzzle device wouldve been a better weapon to compare with


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## Kompromat

CLUMSY said:


> Looks good but a standard type 56 isnt really that difficult to beat, an AK-74M or an AK-103 with the standard muzzle device wouldve been a better weapon to compare with



From what i hear, its right up there with newer AK variants in terms of performance.

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## CLUMSY

Kompromat said:


> From what i hear, its right up there with newer AK variants in terms of performance.


Definitely should be yeah


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## Path-Finder

CLUMSY said:


> Looks good but a standard type 56 isnt really that difficult to beat, an AK-74M or an AK-103 with the standard muzzle device wouldve been a better weapon to compare with


the CW56 has a free floating barrel which will increase give it far far better accuracy than any AKM type rifle and with the roller delayed mechanism reduced muzzle rise.


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## Kompromat

Forgot to mention that these rifles were developed after a rigorous testing program was concluded with world's best offerings being put through paces in all imaginable environments.

The data acquired may have found its way into the development of these rifles.

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## PanzerKiel



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## Abramar

PanzerKiel said:


> View attachment 910289


Are these photos recent?

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## PanzerKiel

Abramar said:


> Are these photos recent?


Hours ago....

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## Path-Finder

PanzerKiel said:


> Hours ago....


so Beretta ARX 200 is in some use? Just dont give this as an answer. 






Allah twada pallah kare.






@merzifonlu I just tripped on this by happenstance, whats going on here?

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## farooqbhai007

PanzerKiel said:


> View attachment 910289


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Path-Finder said:


> so Beretta ARX 200 is in some use? Just dont give this as an answer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Allah twada pallah kare.
> 
> View attachment 910308
> 
> 
> @merzifonlu I just tripped on this by happenstance, whats going on here?


SSU has been using them since long.


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## Great Janjua

PanzerKiel said:


> View attachment 910289


Vepr molot in all bores 308, 223, 222 yeh kya khichri hai bhai.

Btw i have an AK in 8mm and it's like firing a arty shell


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## Reichmarshal

PanzerKiel said:


> View attachment 910289


That is some collection


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## Path-Finder

a piece of history.


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