# Chinese Stealth Fighter



## Lankan Ranger

*Chinese Stealth Fighter*

There is general agreement in the open literature that China is working on some type of stealthy fighter attack aircraft, and that this program has been underway since the turn of the century. There is very little agreement beyond these basic points. 

Available treatments of this subject in print and online seem to represent little more than a confusing jumble of informed speculation, wild guesstimates, and active disinformation. The Chinse government is under no obligation to set the record straight, and indeed has every incentive to add to the general confusion.

Russia and India are jointly developing the Sukhoi PAK FA / T-50 , which first flew in January 2010. In June 2001, India was offered 'joint development and production' of this new 5th generation fighter by Russia. Russia had been trying to sell this concept both to China and India for some time. It seems probable that China declined to participate in this project given a belief that Russia stood to gain more from Chinese participation than did China. 

That is, it would seem that China had determined that it could produce a superior product without Russian help. With the first flight of the Russian stealth fighter in 2010, an arguably superior Chinese steath fighter might be expected to take to the skies not too long thereafter.

A 2006 article in Military Technology referred to three designs; Shenyang J-12 and Shenyang J-14 by 601 Institute Shenyang Aircraft Corporation [SAC] and Chengdu J-13 by 611 Institute Chengdu Aircraft Corporation [CAC]. The report in Military Technology featured a picture of a completely different design, speculatively dubbed J-14 and said to be a Shenyang project, with the designations J-12 and J-13 being applied to (possibly competing) designs by Shenyang and Chengdu respectively.

Shenyang Airplane Corporation (SAC) is in charge of the large, twin-engine J-8 fighters in service with the PLAAF (People's Liberation Army Air Force) as well as of licence production of the Su-27SK under the local designation of J-11. The other study group is the 611 Institute from Chengdu Airplane Corporation (CAC).

By January 2007 Shenyang Aircraft Corporation (SAC) and Chengdu Aircraft Industry Co. (CAC), Chinas two major fighter aircraft enterprises, were both reportedly working on advanced fighter designs slated to enter the PLAAF service as soon as 2015. 

Chengdu was focused on an enlarged twin-engine, 4th generation stealthy version of the J-10 fighter, possibly designated J-13. Shenyang was said to be focused on an entirely new 5th generation F-22-class stealth fighter, possibly designated the J-12. Both projects were believed to have benefited from Russian technologies.

*Chengdu J-13*

The Chinese aviation industry reportedly began preliminary research for Chinas 4th generation fighter program in the mid-1990s. The new aircraft - tentatively dubbed the J-X and possibly to receive the service designation J-13A - could use the WS10A turbofan engine designed by the Shenyang Liming Motor Company during its development and trials process. 

In development for more than a decade, the WS10-series power plant completed air trials earlier this year with an Su-27SK (NATO reporting name: 'Flanker-B') fighter. The WS10A is scheduled for introduction with the PLAAF's J-10A fighter. Continuing research into advanced control techniques is expected to in time allow the air force to field WS10A-powered J-10A and J-X fighters equipped with thrust-vectoring nozzles offering improved aircraft manoeuvrability.

*Chengdu J-20*

In August 2008 it was reported that 611 Institute was selected to be the main contractor for the development of the fifth-generation stealthy J-20, and that 601 Institute was the sub-contractor. It was rumored that 611 Institute has started to issue manufacturing drawings for constructing the first prototype, which is expected to fly by 2012, even though the full configuration one won't fly until a few years later. The latest rumor suggested that a full-scale mock-up had been built at CAC. 


*Shenyang J-12*

In 1998 the U.S. Office of Naval Intelligence (ONI) reported that an advanced F-22-class twin-engine stealth fighter known as J-12 was under development at Shenyang Aircraft Corporation (SAC). In 2002, Jane's Defence Weekly reported that Shenyang Aircraft Corporation had been selected to head research and development of a new fighter. 

In 2003 an online photo showed a wind tunnel test fighter mockup some claimed as linked to the J-12 project. Reports suggested that the fighter would be fitted with an internal weapon bay and possibly active phased array radar.

Besides carrying on with the improvement of the J-8 series and the licensed production of the Su-27, the Shenyang Aircraft Company (SAC) 601 Institute has engaged in preliminary research for the "No. 12" project for the development of the Chinese Air Force's main fighter aircraft for the 21st century. 

Also known as the "XXJ," this fifth generation PLAAF fighter, is currently projected to enter service in the 2013-2015 timeframe. The aircraft is projected to have a crew of two, is anticipated to be in same class as US F-22 fighter, probably based on significant Russian technical assistance.

By 2002 there were reports that China is developing a new stealthy fighter jet aircraft and many of the design concepts and components had already been created. This is the first Eastern rival to the Wests F/A-22 Raptor and F-35 Joint Strike Fighter to go into development. [Janes -- China Reveals New Stealth Fighter Project, 12/11/02]. 

At this time, the Russian Sukhoi Company (JSC), which had developed close ties with Shenyang over the licensed co-production of its Su-27SK fighter as J-11, was reported working with Shenyang in developing the next-generation fighter technology and sub-systems. 

Although Russia had not yet developed an operational stealth fighter, the J-12 project may benefit from its technologies in two areas: thrust vectoring engine and stealth design. China may also seek potential partners from Russia, Israel and Europe to co-develop avionics and weapon suites for its 4th-generation fighter aircraft.

By late 2002 the Shenyang Aircraft Company was reported to have been selected to head research and development of a new heavyweight fighter for China's People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF). Development of the engines and weapon subsystems for the fourth-generation fighter had been under way for some time, with a number of design concepts having been created. 

These include a twin-engine aircraft sharing some design traits with Lockheed Martin's stealthy F/A-22 multirole fighter, such as the internal carriage of its weapon systems. The Chinese designs retain a more conventional wing, however, and use a single vertical tail fin. 

The Shenyang proposal was for a twin engine, single seat 15-tonne class heavy fighter, similar to the US F-22 Raptor but featureing canards. 

At least four different configurations were evaluted before the definitive "New 93" layout was arrived at. Stealth technology was said to be a prominent design feature, with an RCS of about 0.5 square metres beening mentioned. Thrust vectoring technology was said to make the aircraft more agile than the Su-27, in a powerplant with greater than 8000kg thrust.

Considering Chinas records in combat aircraft development, a project like the J-12 may prove challenging. It will involves technology advancement in a number of fields including materials, high-performance aviation engine, electronics, flight control software, and stealth technologies. 

A project of this scale will also require huge amount of investment and considerable knowledge of complex project and manufacturing management. 

*While China may be able to benefit from some off-the-shelf dual-use technologies available in the commercial market, it will almost definitely seek assistance from its traditional military technology suppliers such as Russia and Israel. *

However, none of these two countries possess the experience of developing an advance fighter of this class.

Brigadier Govinda M. Nair wrote in 2005 that "A stealth fighter, XXJ, equivalent to the US F-22 is likely to be inducted by 2015." According to the PLA's Deputy Commander He Weirong, the Chinese fifth generation fighter was expected to be in service with the PLAAF by 2017-2019. 

In August 2008, a RAND study raised questions about the ability of US tactical aircraft, including the F-22, to counter large numbers of Chinese aircraft in a Taiwan Strait scenario. 

Though at that time the F-22 was assumed to be able to shoot down 48 Chinese Flankers when outnumbered 12:1 without loss, this did not take into account less-than-perfect US beyond-visual-range performance, or possible deployment of a new Chinese stealth fighter around 2020 or 2025.

In a speech delivered by Secretary of Defense Robert M. Gates (Economic Club of Chicago, 16 July 2009), he stated "by 2020, the United States is projected to have nearly 2,500 manned combat aircraft of all kinds. Of those, nearly 1,100 will be the most advanced fifth generation F-35s and F-22s. 

China, by contrast, is projected to have no fifth generation aircraft by 2020. And by 2025, the gap only widens. The U.S. will have approximately 1,700 of the most advanced fifth generation fighters versus a handful of comparable aircraft for the Chinese..."

*Shenyang J-14*

In 2006 the respected journal Military Technology reported ["China Develops Stealth Fighter" Vol.30, Iss. 2; pg. 44, 3 pgs] that China was developing new "stealth" fighter, under a program variously referred to as XXJ, J-X, or J-XX by Western intelligence sources, apparently designated as J-14. The first "picture" recently become available, though the authenticity of the image was quickly challenged. 

The aircraft in the photo looked at first sight as a complete prototype, but was said to be a very detailed full-scale engineering mock-up. It can be speculated that, after having been used to study the aircraft's internal installations, the mock-up has also received an external finish for presentation purposes. 

Its real function at this point, however, was probably to assist in the definition of the required logistic support (i.e., access to the various avionics boxes and on-board systems, ground support equipment like the various ladders and the external power source units, air conditioning units and so on) as well as to study the engines' removal/installation procedures.

According to this report, it is however still not clear whether the designation of J-14 is intended to suggest a successor design to both the J-12 and the J-13, and whether the existence of the J-14 engineering mock-up (clearly based on the J-12) indicated that the type has been selected for development, or the competition was still going on with parallel activities underway on another such mock-up based on the J-13.

*The general configuration of the aircraft ws clearly from CAC's experience in developing the J-10, with its canard layout and ventral air intake. *

*But while the J-10 is known to be related to the Israeli LAVI, this new and much more ambitious design appeared to have a relationship with the ill-fated Russian 5th generation fighter of the 1990s, the MiG 1.44 MFI. *

*While the overall aerodynamic configuration of the J-14 followed that of the MiG 1.44 demonstrator, a canard configuration is hardly the ideal solution from the point of view of a reduced radar signature.*

*A radical redesign had been implemented for a significant reduction in the radar cross-section value. In particular, the aircraft incorporates a pronounced wing-body blending, which was totally lacking in the original Russian design. *

*By early 2009 there were reports that the J-14 next generation fighter appeared to have been rejected in favour of Chengdu's J-13 design, and to have lost out to SACs more realistic approach to develop a Flanker-derived type. *

Chinese Stealth Fighter / J-X / J-XX / XXJ / J-12 / J-13 / J-14 / J-20

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## Lankan Ranger

*J-13 AND J-14 *

*Role: Stealth Multi-role Fighter's 
National origin: China 
Manufacturer: J-13 Chengdu Aircraft Corporation, J-14 Shenyang Aircraft Corporation 
First flight: Expected 
Introduction: 2012 (planned) 
Status: Test flight / Pre-production 
Primary user: Chinese Air Force 
Number built: J-13 - 2 AND J-14 - 2 
Program cost: J-13 - US$15 billion AND J-14 - US$15 billion 
Unit cost US$80-100 million. *


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## Lankan Ranger

*J-13 Expected to be like this, J-13 had received support from Russian Mikoyan Project 1.44.*


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## Lankan Ranger

*J-14 Expected to be like this, J-14 had received Israeli Technology*


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## xuxu1457

Sri Lankan said:


> *J-14 Expected to be like this, J-14 had received Israeli Technology*



Sounds like Israeli has made the fifth gen fighter


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## Peregrine

Hi
China is gonna have a lot of pretty good fighter jets.


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## jagjitnatt

China's 5th gen fighter is gonna take some time to mature. Their industry is new right now. JF-17 and J-10 are the only planes they made till date and for that also sufficient tech was bought from different countries.

There is no equivalent of F22. Pak-Fa might be good but its not gonna be better than F22. 

J-XX is gonna be third in the race. It would be more like a 4.5++ gen aircraft. Implementing stealth would be a challenge, not only for China but also for Russia.


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## Peregrine

jagjitnatt said:


> China's 5th gen fighter is gonna take some time to mature. Their industry is new right now. JF-17 and J-10 are the only planes they made till date and for that also sufficient tech was bought from different countries.
> 
> There is no equivalent of F22. Pak-Fa might be good but its not gonna be better than F22.
> 
> J-XX is gonna be third in the race. It would be more like a 4.5++ gen aircraft. Implementing stealth would be a challenge, not only for China but also for Russia.


Hi
China is not new to this industry as some say, actually now they have started making jets which can challenge western fighter jets, So the world has realized that Chinese can make jets too,however they have been doing it for many years now developing fighters, bombers, attack, Interceptors and u name it! But what has brought China under lime light is the improved quality of Chinese technology.as per according to you China has only manufactured J-10 & jf-17, but what about Q-5 Fantan, H-6, JH-7A, J-11?


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## jagjitnatt

Peregrine said:


> Hi
> China is not new to this industry as some say, actually now they have started making jets which can challenge western fighter jets, So the world has realized that Chinese can make jets too,however they have been doing it for many years now developing fighters, bombers, attack, Interceptors and u name it! But what has brought China under lime light is the improved quality of Chinese technology.as per according to you China has only manufactured J-10 & jf-17, but what about Q-5 Fantan, H-6, JH-7A, J-11?



Actually the planes you mentioned are just *reverse engineered copies*. Copying is easier, but making something from scratch is *tough* and making something that even Russia with decades of experience is struggling to achieve is *way way tougher*.

US has over a hundred years of experience with aircraft, Russia has 70-80 years of experience, China's experience is just 10-15 years and that too, only reverse engineered planes. 

There is no aircraft that was unique to China. All its planes have been built with heavy technical assistance from Russia.

Creating a 3rd gen plane or even a 4th gen plane is no big deal, since technology for it exists. But 5th gen is a completely different game. Huge Innovation and R&D is required which China lacks somewhat.


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## Peregrine

jagjitnatt said:


> Actually the planes you mentioned are just *reverse engineered copies*. Copying is easier, but making something from scratch is *tough* and making something that even Russia with decades of experience is struggling to achieve is *way way tougher*.
> 
> US has over a hundred years of experience with aircraft, Russia has 70-80 years of experience, China's experience is just 10-15 years and that too, only reverse engineered planes.
> 
> There is no aircraft that was unique to China. All its planes have been built with heavy technical assistance from Russia.
> 
> Creating a 3rd gen plane or even a 4th gen plane is no big deal, since technology for it exists. But 5th gen is a completely different game. Huge Innovation and R&D is required which China lacks somewhat.


Hi,
that's not a hard & fast rule that u need to have at least 70-100 years of experience to develop a stealth fighter jet, China has made a tremendous progress in almost all fields, even if they reversed engineered some fighter jets, in the process of doing so they gained a lot of knowledge and expertise as well, Not to mention China has been striving hard to gain stealth technology since 1970's including Russia. I am sure you are aware of China obtaining secret stealth technology used on B-2 bomber engines from a Hawaii-based spy ring.


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## lhuang

jagjitnatt said:


> Actually the planes you mentioned are just *reverse engineered copies*. Copying is easier, but making something from scratch is *tough* and making something that even Russia with decades of experience is struggling to achieve is *way way tougher*.
> 
> US has over a hundred years of experience with aircraft, Russia has 70-80 years of experience, China's experience is just 10-15 years and that too, only reverse engineered planes.
> 
> There is no aircraft that was unique to China. All its planes have been built with heavy technical assistance from Russia.
> 
> Creating a 3rd gen plane or even a 4th gen plane is no big deal, since technology for it exists. But 5th gen is a completely different game. Huge Innovation and R&D is required which China lacks somewhat.



You should remember that India too has 10-15 years of experience, yet will you agree that the LCA plane is somehow 10-15 years behind other 4th gen fighters?


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## macnurv

The signs have been there for some time. In 1997, the US Office of Naval Intelligence stated their conviction that a 4th generation stealth fighter was under development in China. Then in December, 2008, the highly respected "Jane's All the World's Aircraft" went on record saying that China has been developing a heavyweight stealth fighter for many years.
In 2005, a former Northrup B2 design engineer was arrested for selling highly classified data about the B-2 and its stealth design to China. Noshir Gowadia has admitted to the charges and so there is no question that the propulsion system and stealth design features of the B-2 have been studied intensively by those designing fighters and bombers for China's People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF).






*China  Shenyang JXX / J14 - concept*


In April 2009, China cyberwar experts attacked the US Department of Defense computers that hold classified data about the F-35 program. Apparently a great deal of data was downloaded, although theft of information in the highest security classification was not acknowledged.
At least two Chinese stealth fighters are farther along in development than anyone would have imagined six months ago. The most recent of these stealth fighter photographs was published on November 25, 2009 on a website that has high level expertise in all matters relating to Chinese military aviation.





China  Shenyang J SAC-601 J-15A / Stealth Fighter Prototype  First 

The photo below of a Shenyang JXX / J14 in a hanger has been available for at least two years and has been widely criticized. It is described as either a prototype J-14 or J-15 stealth fighter, but it could also be an altered photograph of an existing Chinese heavyweight fighter.






*China J-11B fighter*






Unveiled in 2002, the Shenyang J-11B is a very advanced, multi-role attack fighter with Chinese-made avionics and some degree of reduced radar cross section (stealth)  ideal for trying out new ideas about increased stealth. Since 2006, it has been a testbed for the Chinese FWS-10A TaiHang turbofan engine. The FWS-10A is similar to the Russian AL-31F, and is a candidate for next generation stealth aircraft propulsion.


The J-15 is expected to be stationed on the Varyag aircraft carrier, now in the last stages of fitting out in Dalian. The Russian AL-31F, an advanced and proven turbofan engine, is the first choice for a power plant. The American fighter that most closely resembles what little we know about the J-15 is the F/A-18C 'Super Hornet'. Latest news from China states that the J-15 made its maiden flight on August 31, 2009.
A second 'new' stealth fighter - the J-20 - seems to be in development and we know even less about it than the J-15. Russia remains essential for important features: reduction of radar cross section and the best of the advanced turbofan engines. The J-10B fighter is used as a testbed for many J-20 systems. A full scale model of the J-20 may have been completed in 2009. The maiden flight for the J-20 is scheduled for sometime in 2012 with production and combat readiness set for 2015.

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## Speeder 2

jagjitnatt said:


> Actually the planes you mentioned are just *reverse engineered copies*. Copying is easier, but making something from scratch is *tough* and making something that even Russia with decades of experience is struggling to achieve is *way way tougher*.
> 
> US has over a hundred years of experience with aircraft, Russia has 70-80 years of experience, China's experience is just 10-15 years and that too, only reverse engineered planes.
> 
> There is no aircraft that was unique to China. All its planes have been built with heavy technical assistance from Russia.
> 
> Creating a 3rd gen plane or even a 4th gen plane is no big deal, since technology for it exists. But 5th gen is a completely different game. Huge Innovation and R&D is required which China lacks somewhat.




Your understanding of JXX is likely out of touch in my view.


It does matter how many years prior experiences you have when it comes to engines. Yet it is *NOT *that important when it comes to cutting-edge of most other areas of current science though. 

5th gen fighters are at cutting edge, which have a little to do with one's prior experience on jets from say, 1900 to 1960 for example, in my view, but* much more to do with* one's current level of science research and financial strenghth.


We all know that China is not new in the area in a sense that it has been working on it since 90s accroding to the general concensus, yes, its 5th, not sth like 4.5++ gen you claimed. 

Actually, China has the 2rd largest wind tunnel only second to the US if I recall well. Therefore, the aero-dynamic design of JXX would likely be more or less at the same catagory of F-22 or PAKFA.

Contrary to what you said, various Chinese sources ( some with quite serious credibility IMO) strongly suggest that *JXX would likely be better than PAKFA in strealth capability*, while slightly being better or worse in other areas (draw even). Hence in general it would emerge as a better plane than PAKFA, as the whole JXX project itself has been targeting and aiming at compete with F-22A, not PAKFA.


Strealth of JXX would likely be better than PAKFA --

This does not surprise me since China's fundamental research on basic Applied Material sciences is slightly better than Russia's ( a large chunk of China's int'l patents in recently years are dedicated in this area, which are more advanced than Russia). This, combined with far more sufficient finance available ( than Russia) in this project, should make JXX's strealth capability better than PAKFA at least in theory. 

I assume that JXX won't be as expensive as F-22A. This implies that its stealth materials used are probabaly not as much as and as advanced as the latter, which makes it slighly inferior in stealth capabilities IMO. Of course, we'll see when it comes out.

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## jagjitnatt

lhuang said:


> You should remember that India too has 10-15 years of experience, yet will you agree that the LCA plane is somehow 10-15 years behind other 4th gen fighters?



I do agree, LCA is no match for latest 4.5 gen aircraft.

Also 4th gen still be mastered but 5th gen is a different breed altogether. I can't imagine India making a 5th gen aircraft on its own at least before 2030.


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## S-A-B-E-R->

macnurv said:


> The signs have been there for some time. In 1997, the US Office of Naval Intelligence stated their conviction that a 4th generation stealth fighter was under development in China. Then in December, 2008, the highly respected "Jane's All the World's Aircraft" went on record saying that China has been developing a &#8220;heavyweight&#8221; stealth fighter for many years.
> In 2005, a former Northrup B2 design engineer was arrested for selling highly classified data about the B-2 and its stealth design to China. Noshir Gowadia has admitted to the charges and so there is no question that the propulsion system and stealth design features of the B-2 have been studied intensively by those designing fighters and bombers for China's People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *China &#8211; Shenyang JXX / J14 - concept*
> 
> 
> In April 2009, China cyberwar experts attacked the US Department of Defense computers that hold classified data about the F-35 program. Apparently a great deal of data was downloaded, although theft of information in the highest security classification was not acknowledged.
> At least two Chinese stealth fighters are farther along in development than anyone would have imagined six months ago. The most recent of these stealth fighter photographs was published on November 25, 2009 on a website that has high level expertise in all matters relating to Chinese military aviation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> China &#8211; Shenyang J SAC-601 J-15A / Stealth Fighter Prototype &#8211; First
> 
> The photo below of a Shenyang JXX / J14 in a hanger has been available for at least two years and has been widely criticized. It is described as either a prototype J-14 or J-15 stealth fighter, but it could also be an altered photograph of an existing Chinese heavyweight fighter.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *China J-11B fighter*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unveiled in 2002, the Shenyang J-11B is a very advanced, multi-role attack fighter with Chinese-made avionics and some degree of reduced radar cross section (stealth) &#8211; ideal for trying out new ideas about increased stealth. Since 2006, it has been a testbed for the Chinese FWS-10A &#8216;TaiHang&#8217; turbofan engine. The FWS-10A is similar to the Russian AL-31F, and is a candidate for next generation stealth aircraft propulsion.
> 
> 
> The J-15 is expected to be stationed on the Varyag aircraft carrier, now in the last stages of fitting out in Dalian. The Russian AL-31F, an advanced and proven turbofan engine, is the first choice for a power plant. The American fighter that most closely resembles what little we know about the J-15 is the F/A-18C 'Super Hornet'. Latest news from China states that the J-15 made its maiden flight on August 31, 2009.
> A second 'new' stealth fighter - the J-20 - seems to be in development and we know even less about it than the J-15. Russia remains essential for important features: reduction of radar cross section and the best of the advanced turbofan engines. The J-10B fighter is used as a testbed for many J-20 systems. A full scale model of the J-20 may have been completed in 2009. The maiden flight for the J-20 is scheduled for sometime in 2012 with production and combat readiness set for 2015.



sir isnt the last one american???


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## jagjitnatt

Speeder 2 said:


> Strealth of JXX would likely be better than PAKFA --



I highly highly doubt that since China's contribution to aerospace has been very little and all of a sudden they can't jump to stealth planes. It takes a lot of time to mature. Countries with LO aircraft have been experiencing problems with stealth, China has 0 experience with LO aircraft let alone stealth.

Also patents filed by researchers are not always applicable in real world. Patents are filed all over the world, but very few are put to use. There are patents on even time travel, doesn't mean its possible or can be made.


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## Speeder 2

jagjitnatt said:


> I highly highly doubt that since China's contribution to aerospace has been very little and all of a sudden they can't jump to stealth planes. It takes a lot of time to mature. Countries with LO aircraft have been experiencing problems with stealth, China has 0 experience with LO aircraft let alone stealth.
> 
> Also patents filed by researchers are not always applicable in real world. Patents are filed all over the world, but very few are put to use. There are patents on even time travel, doesn't mean its possible or can be made.



There's nothing misterious about stealth: the combi of design (RCS) and materials. China has come along way in these two, especially the material science research. 

Don't think for a sec that patents are useless. * The examples you gave were typical anecdotal evidences, which bear zero significance.* It's just like saying since some water are undrinkable, therefore water is useless for humans.

Patents are easy and have no menaings in life?  Try to ask any first class Material Scientist in the world to file a single international patent on it and see how difficult it will be and how far he could go? 

As far as I am aware, China has invested billions in this science and has progressed by leaps and bounds for the last decade. Indeed, China currently accupies the lion share of patents on the cutting edge of material science in the world. Therefore it won't surprise me at all in principle that JXX would likely come along better than PAKFA on this, because China is more advanced than Russia in material science.


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## Stealth

IMO China will not able to make any single piece of STATE OF THE ART aircraft especially 5th generation (not possible) even in next 5 - 7 years (i am not under estimate China but its fact) 

Only Russia and USA able to make such thing and after that only china but need some more extra time atleast 5 - 7 years... and rest of countries (NO AND NEVER !! not even able to make single piece of missile "without Russian and American help").

Point to be noted "NO ONE" xpect Russia, US and after China no one able to make any state of the art either its Europe, South Asia or middleast.


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## Speeder 2

Stealth said:


> IMO China will not able to make any single piece of STATE OF THE ART aircraft especially 5th generation (not possible) even in next 5 - 7 years (i am not under estimate China but its fact)
> 
> .




I can understand if you are saying that China's 5th gen platform is not mature enough and in need of more work in the next 5 year or so (so is PAKFA for that matter I have to say). But when you put it as "not able to", "not possible"... , it starts to sound a bit odd, since it's against some of the most educated guess/analysis out there on JXX. Care to explain why you think so?


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## Peregrine

Stealth said:


> and rest of countries (NO AND NEVER !! not even able to make single piece of missile "without Russian and American help").
> 
> Point to be noted "NO ONE" xpect Russia, US and after China no one able to make any state of the art either its Europe, South Asia or middleast.




Hi
are you forgetting something it was Americans & Russians who stole German Ballistic missile technology, remember V2 rockets,Many of those German proposed fighter jets from second world war were also copied by Russians & Americans, worlds number 1 tank is still a German tank, about submarine every body knows  My point is that people tend to over rate American & Russian technology.

Please tell me if it reminds you of any American Stealth Bomber






Vera Radar developed by Czech Republic & also exported to USA





Worlds only ASBM developed by China


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## Speeder 2

China shocks analysts by Flight Testing 5th gen JXX Stealth fighter 
Written by Moin Ansari World Jan 7, 2010 While the Russian aircraft manufacturer Sukhoi is flight testing its T-50 PAKFA&#161;Vthe world is watching the tests very closely. Analysts are surprised that China too is testing its 5th generation aircraft (which it calls 4th generation). Beijing thinks that the F-22 is a 4th generation aircraft while the West considers it a 5th generation stealth fighter. With $30 Billion China building J-xx 5th generation fighter.
Shenyang J-XX: J-12, J-13, F-XX, J-XX (or J-X or XXJ) is a name applied by Western intelligence sources to describe a programme or programmes by the People&#161;&#166;s Republic of China to develop one or more new fourth- or fifth-generation fighter aircraft. In 2002,Jane&#161;&#166;s Defence Weekly reported that Shenyang Aircraft Corporation had been selected to head research and development of the new fighter, a claim repeated in New Scientist the same week. However, a 2006 article in Military Technology referred to three designs; J-12 & J-14 by Shenyang Aircraft Corporation and J-13 by Chengdu Aircraft Corporation.

According to the report from Jane&#161;&#166;s, development of the subsystems, including the engine and weapon suite for the next generation fighter, has been under way for some time.

If we ignore the war of nomenclature&#161;Vthe fact remains that Chinese are at par with or possibly ahead of the Russian stealth race.

As for the Chinese 5th generation fighter (or 4th generation as they call it), it has always been a battle between SAC and CAC. We&#161;&#166;ve received a lot of mixed/contradictory news over the so called J-XX in the past few years. People first speculated that it will be developed by SAC due to the model they saw in Zhuhai 2002. By 2007, we started to receive news that CAC&#161;&#166;s design was actually awarded the contract. At the same time, many people also certainly speculated that China was going to join this project for the longest time, but that never happened. I think that China knew what was at the stake in such a cooperation. They would likely get an offer from the Russians for ToT and some development work. Although, the Russians would freeze the design according to their needs and keep some of the trade secrets to themselves. China PLA blog

China Close To Test 5th Gen Fighter&#161;Vusually tagged as F-XX, but some call it by the moniker J-14

&#65279;

A Chinese fighter of nominally the same technology generation as the Lockheed Martin F-22 will soon enter flight testing, while a jet airlifter larger than the Airbus A400M should be unveiled by year-end.

Beijing&#161;&#166;s fighter announcement suggests a serious failing in U.S. intelligence assessments, mocking a July 16 statement of U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates that China would have no fifth-generation fighters by 2020. Industrial competition looks more remote than strategic competition, however, since China will want to fill domestic requirements before offering the aircraft abroad, even if it judges export sales to be a wise policy.

The new fighter &#161;&#167;is currently under development,&#161;&#168; says Gen. He Weirong, deputy air force chief. &#161;&#167;[It] may soon undertake its first flight, quickly enter flight testing and then quickly equip the forces.

&#161;&#167;According to the current situation, [the entry into service] may take another eight to 10 years,&#161;&#168; he adds.

No details of the aircraft were given, but it is almost certainly designed for supersonic cruise without afterburning. In April, Adm. Wu Shengli, the navy chief, listed supercruising fighters among equipment that his service needed. Notably, all the other equipment on his wish list looked quite achievable by the end of the next decade, matching the timing that the air force now suggests for the fighter.

China classifies aircraft of the F-22&#161;&#166;s technology level as fourth-generation fighters, although they are called fifth-generation aircraft in the West. China&#161;&#166;s current advanced fighter, the J-10, is locally called a third-generation aircraft, which in Chinese terms means that it is comparable with the Lockheed Martin F-16.

Work on &#161;&#167;the fourth-generation aircraft is now proceeding intensely,&#161;&#168; He says.

Whether the upcoming fighter is really comparable with the F-22 remains to be seen. Low radar reflectivity would not be surprising, since aircraft and missiles with stealthy shapes are now popping up in many countries, including South Korea as recently as last month (AW&ST Oct. 26-Nov. 2, p. 42). But sensor performance, information fusion and maximum supercruise speed would also be assessed critically in measuring a claim to have caught up with technology levels that the U.S. did not deploy until 2005.

The existence of a Chinese fifth-generation fighter, usually tagged J-XX, has been rumored for years without official confirmation.

If the aircraft does go into service before 2020, then at that time China may well have jumped past Britain, France and other Western European countries in terms of deployed, domestically developed combat-aircraft technology. That will depend on how quickly those countries move to field combat drones to replace current strike aircraft, says Andrew Brookes of the International Institute for Strategic Studies.

Brookes takes seriously the Chinese objective of technology equivalent to the F-22, and he sees no reason to doubt that the F-22 would be the standard against which they would judge their design. The know-how can be imported.

&#161;&#167;The Russians have the technology and the Chinese have the money,&#161;&#168; he says. &#161;&#167;If they really set that as a target, then I think they can do it.&#161;&#168;

The aircraft may not bother Western manufacturers in export markets, Brookes suggests, simply because an equivalent of the F-22 would be a destabilizing export that China would be prefer to keep to itself.

Even if China decides that it wants to export the fighter, Lockheed Martin should by then be well entrenched with the F-35, which should be mature and reliable at that point. Other manufactures may not be so well placed, however.

Gen. He made his remarks during an interview on China Central Television as part of the celebrations of the 60th anniversary of the air force of the People&#161;&#166;s Republic of China. (The general&#161;&#166;s surname is pronounced as &#161;&#167;her&#161;&#168; but without the &#161;&#167;r.&#161;&#168

China is probably working on two fifth-generation concepts, says Richard Fisher of the International Assessment and Strategy Center. One of those concepts, appearing most commonly in bits and pieces of evidence that have turned up from time to time, would be a heavy twin-engine fighter probably of about the same size as the F-22. The other is a single-engine aircraft probably closer to the Lockheed Martin F-35.

Gen. He could be referring to either of the aircraft when predicting an entry into service during the next decade. Fisher&#161;&#166;s bet is that he is talking about the twin-engine concept.

Like Brookes, Fisher believes China is realistically aiming at the F-22&#161;&#166;s technology level. &#161;&#167;One has to assume that the People&#161;&#166;s Liberation Army is confident in its projections, as it almost never makes such comments about future military programs, especially one that has been as closely held as its next-generation fighter.

&#161;&#167;As such, one has to be asking very hard questions: How did the U.S. intelligence community get this one wrong? And inasmuch as no one expects the F-35 to replace the F-22 in the air superiority role, is it time to acknowledge that F-22 production termination is premature and that a much higher number is needed to sustain deterrence in Asia?&#161;&#168;

In his July 16 speech, Gates said that even in 2025 China would have but a handful of fifth-generation aircraft.

The new Chinese fighter could come from the Chengdu or Shenyang plants of Avic Defense.

Gen. He says the Chinese air force plans to emphasize development of four capabilities: reconnaissance and early warning, air strike, strategic supply, and air and missile defense.

The J-10 began large-scale service entry in 2006, state media say.

When Wu raised the prospect of a supercruising fighter, an easy answer seemed to be an advanced version of the J-10. That looks less likely now that He describes the future concept as a full generation ahead of the J-10.

&#161;&#167;I believe the Chinese have a difficult road if their design is tied to the J-10,&#161;&#168; says a U.S. Air Force officer involved in the development of the F-35. &#161;&#167;Significantly reduced signature requires more than coatings. It requires an integrated design philosophy with the right shaping, the right structure and the right surface coatings.&#161;&#168;

Fisher assumes that China is developing improved fourth-generation fighters in parallel with the fifth generation.

The existence of the airlifter has been known for several years, if only because pictures of it have appeared fleetingly in presentations by the Chinese aviation conglomerate Avic.

As expected, it turns out to be a product of Avic&#161;&#166;s large-airplane subsidiary, Avic Aircraft and, more specifically, of the subsidiary&#161;&#166;s core plant, Xi&#161;&#166;an Aircraft.

Avic Aircraft General Manager Hu Xiaofeng says the airlifter is in the 200-metric-ton class and will be unveiled at the end of this year.

In fact, its design has already unveiled in pictures shown by state media. The four-engine aircraft adopts the universal high-wing, T-tail configuration. The wing is mounted on top of the circular body, rather than passing through a deep segment of it and cutting out much of the usable cross-section. In that respect it is like the A400M, Ilyushin Il-76 and Kawasaki C-X but unlike the C-17, whose embedded wing presents less frontal area.

The main gear of the Chinese aircraft is housed in very protuberant sponsons, like those of the C-17.

A photograph of the cockpit shows five electronic displays of moderate size and conventional transport-style control columns. Engines are not revealed but would presumably be imported from Russia. A wind-tunnel model shows the engines are enclosed in long nacelles, like those of the Perm PS-90 from Russia.

The PS-90 has a standard maximum thrust of 35,300 lb. in its latest version. The C-17, with a gross weight of 265 tons, is powered by four Pratt & Whitney F117 engines of 40,400 lb. thrust.

The airlifter&#161;&#166;s fuselage appears to be of conventional metal construction. The aircraft will be significantly larger than the A400M, which has a 141-metric-ton gross weight.

Hu says it has been independently developed in China. However, his parent company, Avic, has a long history of cooperation with Ukrainian airlifter specialist Antonov.China Close To Testing Next-Gen Fighter | AVIATION WEEK

So, why did China not cooperate with the Russians. I think China realizes that it has enough aerospace technology base to be able to develop a true 5th generation fighter. At the same time, the Russians would always be the primary partner in such a project. It would be hard to imagine China wanting to act second-fiddle and be locked out of a large part of the development process and some of the advanced technologies. By working with the Russians, China would not only pay a majority of the development but also continuously pay Russians for certain parts of the frame, maintenance/repairs, extra supplies of the engine and maybe even missile/avionics cost. In the end, China has enough faith in AVIC1 to be able to develop this fighter. China PLA blog

On November 9, General He Weirong, deputy commander of the People&#161;&#166;s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF), confirmed long-standing speculations that the PLAAF is developing fifth-generation fighters (fourth-generation in Chinese standard), which may be in service within 8 to 10 years, and certainly by 2020. During an interview with state-owned China Central Television (CCTV) two days ahead of the 60th anniversary of the PLAAF on November 11, Deputy Commander He announced that the next-generation fighter would soon undergo its first flight, closely followed by flight trials (Xinhua News Agency, November 9). The senior military officer&#161;&#166;s disclosure reflects the considerable progress that the PLAAF has made in force modernization, which has exceeded Western expectations in terms of the pace of development and the capabilities of its defense industrial base. While China remains several steps behind the United States in operationalizing its advanced fighter jets, the PLA&#161;&#166;s rapid military modernization has raised concerns among U.S. allies in the region that the military balance is beginning to tilt toward China&#161;&#166;s favor.

In an interview with Global Times, PLAAF Commander Xu Qiliang stated, &#161;&#167;superiority in space and in air would mean, to a certain extent, superiority over the land and the oceans&#161;&#168; (Global Times, November 2), thereby highlighting the PLAAF&#161;&#166;s position in Chinese military planning. At an event commemorating the PLAAF&#161;&#166;s 60th anniversary, President Hu Jintao heralded a &#161;&#167;new chapter&#161;&#168; in the development of the PLAAF (Global Times, November 10).

China&#161;&#166;s fifth-generation fighters will reportedly have 4S capabilities: stealth, super cruise, super maneuverability and short take-off. According to Air Force Colonel Dai Xu, &#161;&#167;its most striking characteristic is the capability of invisibility, which also could be called low detectability&#161;&#168; (Global Times, November 10). The U.S. F-22 Raptor serves as the gold standard of fifth-generation fighters, which is currently the only fifth-generation fighter in service among all the world&#161;&#166;s armed forces. According to General He&#161;&#166;s interview, Chengdu Aircraft, the country&#161;&#166;s leading fighter manufacturer, is reportedly developing the fighter with Shenyang Aircraft (Xinhua News Agency, November 9).

General He&#161;&#166;s startling revelation that the next-generation fighter may be in service by 2020 stands in stark contrast to the Chinese habit of closely guarding its military capabilities, yet consistent with a recent trend that reflects the Chinese Armed Force&#161;&#166;s growing confidence in its military strength. During an interview with the official Xinhua News Agency back in September, Defense Minister Liang Guanglie proclaimed that, &#161;&#167;Our [China&#161;&#166;s] capabilities in waging defensive combat under modern conditions have taken a quantum leap &#161;K It could be said that China has basically all the kinds of equipment possessed by Western countries, much of which reaches or approaches advanced world standards&#161;&#168; (Xinhua News Agency, September 21),

Indeed, an ongoing survey conducted by Global Times among its Chinese users revealed some telling observations about how they perceive China&#161;&#166;s security environment and PLA airpower. The short four-question survey asks the respondents questions ranging from where they think the biggest security threat to China in the future will come from to how they rate China&#161;&#166;s airpower and what type of air force should be developed in the future. The first question, which asks how respondents view China&#161;&#166;s security environment, 46 percent of the 9,335 who answered said that they think the biggest security threat to China comes from the sea, while 43 percent responded that it is airborne. The second question asked respondents to rate China&#161;&#166;s air force, and 50.8 percent rated the Chinese Air Force as average, while 44.9 percent rated it as weak. The third question asked respondents what kind of airforce China should develop, and an overwhelming majority, 75.3 percent, responded that China ought to develop a strategic air force capable of covering the entire globe. The final question asks respondents where China should place its emphasis with regard to air force development, and the majority&#161;X47.6 percent&#161;Xresponded that China&#161;&#166;s air force should develop a space-based combat unit (satellites, space weapons, etc.), while 21.3 percent responded that China&#161;&#166;s emphasis should be placed on developing large airlift platforms (strategic bombers and cargo aircraft, etc.) (Survey.huanqiu.com, November 17).

In light of China&#161;&#166;s rapid air force modernization, Japan is increasingly concerned about Chinese regional air superiority. A Kyodo News report cited by the Global Times quoted Andrei Chang, editor-in-chief of the Canada-based Kanwa Defense Review Monthly, as saying that the PLAAF currently has 280 J-11s, whose combat performance is comparable to Japan&#161;&#166;s Air Self Defense Forces&#161;&#166; 200 F-15s, and 140 J-10s, which are a match for the F-16s. According to a Japanese military source, &#161;&#167;even though [Japan] has a disadvantage in numbers at the moment, but combined with its airborne early warning and control system Japan can win in terms of quality.&#161;&#168; Yet, the source cautioned that, &#161;&#167;once China deploys its AEWC [KJ-2000, which were on display at the October 1 National Day Parade] &#161;K Japan&#161;&#166;s air superiority will gradually diminish&#161;&#168; (China Daily, November 11; Global Times, November 12). Hu Jintaos Theory of the Three Harmonies - The Jamestown Foundation

China&#161;&#166;s Fifth-Generation Fighters and the Changing Strategic Balance , Publication: China Brief Volume: 9 Issue: 23November 19, 2009 12:51 PM Age: 48 days. By: Russell Hsiao, Publication: China Brief Volume: 9 Issue: 23

Recently, we&#161;&#166;ve received two pieces of news. The first one is an enthusiastic report on WS-15. The article just got really excited about using digital design for developing WS-15, but it did not really explain how well the project really is doing. According to some online sources, the engine should be ready in the middle to later part of next decade. The thrust performance is designed toward matching F-119, but it&#161;&#166;s hard to think that WS-15 would be as reliable and stealthy as F-119. We also got one final confirmation from CAC that they got the main design work for the 5th generation fighter. Now, the production facility of SAC may still be used to produce a large part of the 5th generation fighter, but PLAAF clearly likes CAC&#161;&#166;s design better. SAC will be saddled with the design for the naval fighter, future J-11 variants and UAV/UCAVs. CAC now has the upgraded J-10, the 5th generation fighter, the global hawk-like UAV and the JF-17 projects to work on. After SAC is done with J-8IIs (hopefully soon), SAC basically only has J-11 variants and UAVs to work on. Also, what does XAC have after JH-7A? I presume bomber or fighter-bomber projects, but there really isn&#161;&#166;t a good report verifying much of anything. Also, it&#161;&#166;s interesting that PLAAF selected CAC&#161;&#166;s design over SAC despite neither firm having built a prototype. CAC will now be in charge of getting some built soon that will use 2 WS-15 engine (or maybe WS-10 series in the beginning), radar (by probably 14th institute) and integrating different avionics together. CAC is already getting a lot of experience developing a new generation of avionics on the upgraded J-10. The 5th generation plane should take that up a notch to be able to fighter in the new environment. A new generation of missiles are also being developed for future fighters. We&#161;&#166;ve seen/heard a 5th generation SRAAM, a successor MRAAM to PL-12 and a Metor-like ramjet powered LRAAM. CAC has shown that it can integrate all of this in the J-10 project. So, I think PLAAF is making the right decision to pick it ahead of SAC for the 5th generation design work. At current time, I&#161;&#166;ve been reading 2015 as the year that this plane will join service. I think this is kind of optimistic, because they are not expecting first flight until 2012. 



China shocks analysts by Flight Testing 5th gen JXX Stealth fighter


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## scuthan

jagjitnatt said:


> Actually the planes you mentioned are just *reverse engineered copies*. Copying is easier, but making something from scratch is *tough* and making something that even Russia with decades of experience is struggling to achieve is *way way tougher*.
> 
> US has over a hundred years of experience with aircraft, Russia has 70-80 years of experience, China's experience is just 10-15 years and that too, only reverse engineered planes.
> 
> There is no aircraft that was unique to China. All its planes have been built with heavy technical assistance from Russia.
> 
> Creating a 3rd gen plane or even a 4th gen plane is no big deal, since technology for it exists. But 5th gen is a completely different game. Huge Innovation and R&D is required which China lacks somewhat.



China made first jet "J-5" fighter in 1950s with the help of Soviet Union, and has been producing j-6 j-7 j-8 j-9(cancelled) j-10 j-11 j-12(cancelled), JF-17 over the past 5 decades.

your words show that you know nothing about aviation industry. Reverse Engineering is beneficial as using a mature design can significantly reduce the technical risk. but can't slightly reduce the difficulty of production at all. The materials and craftmanship of aircraft production determine the level of a country's aviation industry. If a country want to do it totally from scratch by their own, they have to invest tens billions of bucks to build hundreds of research institutes, hundreds thousands of scientists and engineers, numerous expensive testing facilities, 50 years' technology and experience accumulation. but the investment are totally worthy

there are some low-cost third generation jet-fighter developed by small countries on the platform of mature technology, like JAS39, LAVI. if they want to do it from scratch, the cost will skyrocket, and will suffer what china had suffers from: a trivial problem like cracks on the engine blade cost them decades to resolve, because no one teach them how to do that.

Imitating mature design can significantly reduce to the technical risk, but design it's not the crux in aviation industry.the expertise of how to make it is more important. Most importantly, how to make your product work with high reliability is the most difficult. 

There are only US Russia France Britain China can develop third gen jet fighter completely on their own. I don;t see any country can join this club in the following 20 years. India doesn't even show the ambition yet

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## ptldM3

Speeder 2 said:


> Contrary to what you said, various Chinese sources ( some with quite serious credibility IMO) strongly suggest that *JXX would likely be better than PAKFA in strealth capability*, while slightly being better or worse in other areas (draw even). Hence in general it would emerge as a better plane than PAKFA, as the whole JXX project itself has been targeting and aiming at compete with F-22A, not PAKFA.



 here we go again with these "sources" who are these sources? I want a link, and how do they know anything about the pak-fa's stealth or avionics to make such outlandish claims?




Speeder 2 said:


> Strealth of JXX would likely be better than PAKFA --



Not spewing garbage would likely be best.



Speeder 2 said:


> This does not surprise me since China's fundamental research on basic Applied Material sciences is slightly better than Russia's ( a large chunk of China's int'l patents in recently years are dedicated in this area, which are more advanced than Russia).



Having more patents wont help you build a superior aircraft. Explain this, if China's patents dictate their superiority then why has China sought help from Russian ferms and engineers? And don't worry about our "Applied Material sciences" we have a mature aurospace program and our space program yeilds us greatly in aircraft development, look into the Mig-35, it benifited directly from our space program.



Speeder 2 said:


> This, combined with far more sufficient finance available ( than Russia) in this project, should make JXX's strealth capability better than PAKFA at least in theory.



What's the J-XX budget? I want sources. You can have all the money in the world but experince is what matters.


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## SinoIndusFriendship

ptldM3 said:


> here we go again with these "sources" who are these sources? I want a link and how do they know anything about the pak-fa's stealth or avionics to make such outlandish claims?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not spewing garbage would likely be best.
> 
> 
> 
> Having more patents wont help you build a superior aircraft. Explain this, if China's patents dictate their superiority then why has China sought help from Russian ferms and engineers? And don't worry about our "Applied Material sciences" we have a mature aurospace program and our space program yeilds us greatly in aircraft development, look into the Mig-35, it benifited directly from our space program.
> 
> 
> 
> What's the J-XX budget? I want sources? Give Zimbabwe a large budget and tell them to build a state of the art aircraft and see what happens...get my drift?




It is good you stated this, and I will quote you as proof.

What is amazing is that the details have been kept so confidential that even the best leaks are speculation. In a nation with so high a population density (and many international parties interested), it is amazing that any concrete details / photos / data has not been leaked. More so that even hard-core fans, like myself even doubt it's progress. The only reliable source we have is that a General said it will undergo it's maiden flight test "soon" (time frame?).

Those who are getting nervous, defensive or anxious lack coolness and self confidence.

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## below_freezing

jagjitnatt said:


> China's 5th gen fighter is gonna take some time to mature. Their industry is new right now. JF-17 and J-10 are the only planes they made till date and for that also sufficient tech was bought from different countries.
> 
> There is no equivalent of F22. Pak-Fa might be good but its not gonna be better than F22.
> 
> J-XX is gonna be third in the race. It would be more like a 4.5++ gen aircraft. Implementing stealth would be a challenge, not only for China but also for Russia.



sorry we've had a unique aviation industry since the 1960's. know why? because we were enemies of both Russia and the US for 20 years. who will help us? no one.

unique planes to china, not counting any soviet copies

Q-5
J-8 (1960)
J-10
J-11B
JH-7
JF-17
KJ-2000

you also know nothing about what reverse engineering is. without skill from the rest of industry such as computer programming for the embedded software in the avionics, materials science to actually make the engine, precision machining for mass production, etc. even having the other side hold your hand step by step, won't let you produce anything. india has no innovation. the LCA is a worse version of the F-16, india's Su-30s are copied from Russia, and there's no other worthy planes in the indian arsenal.

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## Speeder 2

ptldM3 said:


> here we go again with these "sources" who are these sources? I want a link, and how do they know anything about the pak-fa's stealth or avionics to make such outlandish claims?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not spewing garbage would likely be best.
> 
> 
> 
> Having more patents wont help you build a superior aircraft. Explain this, if China's patents dictate their superiority then why has China sought help from Russian ferms and engineers? And don't worry about our "Applied Material sciences" we have a mature aurospace program and our space program yeilds us greatly in aircraft development, look into the Mig-35, it benifited directly from our space program.
> 
> 
> 
> What's the J-XX budget? I want sources? You can have all the money in the world but experince is what matters.





Chinese millitary almost NEVER discloses any hardware in its entire history before it's completely finished and well-inducted in the PLA. So you won't see ANY hard proof as there is no such a thing in public domain before JXX is in service. 

That is a mentality significantly different from that of the West where most projects are well-known even before they started, particularly in India where most weapon systems have been considered done and ranked as amongst world's bests even before the colours in the drawing board are still wet.

All the stuffs on the market on JXX are either outright rumours or educated guess. If you don't believe in the best possible educated guess from foriegn intelligence agencies and some domestic hardcore millitary experts with creditable track records, then you'd better say stuffs such as there is hardly ANY nuclear weapon in China after all, because China has never admitted that she has more than 1. And you won't find any proof on that either, you bet!


Yes, due to some considerable head start, mainly benefitting from the insane millitary built-up of the Cold War era, both the US and Russia are ahead of China in Space techonologies in general, up to now. 

So? China's overall industrial base is already larger and more advanced than that of Russia. It was considered "inconceivable" just 2 decades back. e.g. electronics of Chinese millitary hardware have already started surpassed those of Russia, which includes those inside war planes. This is because Chinese semi conductor/electronic industry as a whole has already surpassed Russia's. 

You can see examples like this in other industries everywhere if your eyesights are oke. No hard feelings.

Unless you are of advanced age with grandchildren already, you'll live to see the day when China is on par with, even surpass, most of the best US techologies one by one, let alone Russia's.

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## SinoIndusFriendship

Speeder 2 said:


> Chinese millitary almost NEVER discloses any hardware in its entire history before it's completely finished and well-inducted in the PLA. So you won't see ANY hard proof as there is no such a thing in public domain before JXX is in service.
> 
> That is a mentality significantly different from that of the West where most projects are well-known even before they started, particularly in India where most weapon systems have been considered done and ranked as amongst world's bests even before the colours in the drawing board are still wet.
> 
> All the stuffs on the market on JXX are either outright rumours or educated guess. If you don't believe in the best possible educated guess from foriegn intelligence agencies and some domestic hardcore millitary experts with creditable track records, then you'd better say stuffs such as there is hardly ANY nuclear weapon in China after all, because China has never admitted that she has more than 1. And you won't find any proof on that either, you bet!
> 
> 
> Yes, due to some considerable head start, mainly benefitting from the insane millitary built-up of the Cold War era, both the US and Russia are ahead of China in Space techonologies in general, up to now.
> 
> So? China's overall industrial base is already larger and more advanced than that of Russia. It was considered "inconceivable" just 2 decades back. e.g. electronics of Chinese millitary hardware have already started surpassed those of Russia, which includes those inside war planes. This is because Chinese semi conductor/electronic industry as a whole has already surpassed Russia's.
> 
> You can see examples like this in other industries everywhere if your eyesights are oke. No hard feelings.
> 
> Unless you are of advanced age with grandchildren already, you'll live to see the day when China is on par with, even surpass, most of the best US techologies one by one, let alone Russia's.



In the words of Jew-patsy-boy Jim Cramer "BOOOOOO-YAAAAAHHHHH!!!!!" 

/ edit

I should say "former"-jew-patsy-boy Jim Cramer, as he has fallen out of fashion of the self-proclaimed chosen ones, the master race. A LESSON FOR ALL GOYIMS: When a goyim is no longer of use, they dump them like the trash they are....


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## ptldM3

Speeder 2 said:


> *Chinese millitary almost NEVER discloses any hardware in its entire history before it's completely finished and well-inducted in the PLA. So you won't see ANY hard proof as there is no such a thing in public domain before JXX is in service. *
> 
> *All the stuffs on the market on JXX are either outright rumours or educated guess. *



Than we can all agree that your earlier statemants were purley fictional.





Speeder 2 said:


> *If you don't believe in the best possible educated guess from foriegn intelligence agencies and some domestic hardcore millitary experts with creditable track records*, then you'd better say stuffs such as there is hardly ANY nuclear weapon in China after all, because China has never admitted that she has more than 1. And you won't find any proof on that either, you bet!



I don't base anyting on educated guesses  and again stop bringing in phantom figures, who are "hardcore millitary experts with creditable track records"? And what are their track records? And just how are they "experts"? Again a link would be great. 





Speeder 2 said:


> So? *China's overall industrial base is already larger and more advanced than that of Russia*.



China's civilian industrial base may be larger than Russian's but a military industry is something totally different from a civilian industry. And again give a link before you go around throwing claims.



Speeder 2 said:


> It was considered "inconceivable" just 2 decades back. e.g. *electronics of Chinese millitary hardware have already started surpassed those of Russia*, which includes those inside war planes. This is because Chinese semi conductor/electronic industry as a whole has already surpassed Russia's.



Again i want a source, and if Chinese electronics are so much more advanced than Russian ones than explain the link below.



> many J-10 avionics are also of Russian origin. The radar for full-rate production models is still something of a mystery, but the most likely candidate is a Chinese pulse Doppler planar array copied from Russian and Israeli technology



Aerospaceweb.org | Aircraft Museum - J-10 / F-10

The Chinese also wanted the radar and engines from the SU-35.



> we are only interested in exporting whole Su-35s. This is not what the Chinese delegates hoped for. They hoped to import only certain subsystems, for instance the radar systems or the engines



http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oGk00iT...ysis_china_seeks_new_russian_technology/7924/


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## Creder

its nice to see someone other than pakistanis and indians bickering over toys


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## Speeder 2

ptldM3 said:


> Than we can all agree that your earlier statemants were purley fictional.



NO. The logic still stands! China is more advanced than Russian in meterial science, most of them having profound millitary implications.





ptldM3 said:


> I don't base anyting on educated guesses  and again stop bringing in phantom figures, who are "hardcore millitary experts with creditable track records"? And what are their track records? And just how are they "experts"? Again a link would be great.



The deputy chief of PLAF, for example. Go read my previous posts.






ptldM3 said:


> China's civilian industrial base may be larger than Russian's but a military industry is something totally different from a civilian industry. And again give a link before you go around throwing claims.



Yes and NO. Most high tech are duel use!




ptldM3 said:


> Again i want a source, and if *Chinese electronics* are so much more advanced than *Russian* ones than explain the link below.



Google those key words, you'll see pages of pages of links. Are you that lazy? 



ptldM3 said:


> The Chinese also wanted the *radar *and *engines *from the SU-35.



Thank you for helping proving my point: see? e.g. China is NOT interested *at all* in eletronics of Su 35 ? 

China has fielded 3 types of AESA radar, while Russia none up to date. Go check it up. Nonetheless, the radar of Su 35 has something China would like to see. 

Engines, now here are the item that should make you Russians proud: even though Russian engine techs are not top notch in the world, china is still inferior to Russia on this unfortunately. 

Engines are probably *the only thing* that Russia has a *clear* lead of China in the 5th gen fighters.

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## razgriz19

S-A-B-E-R-> said:


> sir isnt the last one american???



yup it is
it lost against f-22...
btw its called yf-23

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## ptldM3

Speeder 2 said:


> NO. The logic still stands! China is more advanced than Russian in meterial science, most of them having profound millitary implications.



The logic is you can't provide one source, and you keep making claim after claim but you have not once gave me a link.





Speeder 2 said:


> deputy chief of PLAF, for example. Go read my previous posts.



Give me a *link* were he says the J-XX is more "stealthier" and "better" than the pak-fa, after all that's what you were claiming and that's what i'm asking. Link, give it to me.





Speeder 2 said:


> Google those key words, you'll see pages of pages of links. Are you that lazy?



How about you stop back tracking and give a the link that i asked for instead of telling me to google "Chinese electronics" and "Russia". You make claims, you better back them up, stop acting like a child by telling me to search, if you make a claim than it's your responsibility to back it up.





Speeder 2 said:


> Thank you for helping proving my point: see? e.g. China is NOT interested *at all* in eletronics of Su 35 ?



The link clearly stated China *was* interested in the SU-35's avionics.



Speeder 2 said:


> China has fielded 3 types of AESA radar, while Russia none up to date. Go check it up. Nonetheless, the radar of Su 35 has something China would like to see.



We have ateast two AESA varients though none are in operational fighters, several of them are installed on Mig-35's and one of them, the Phazatron, is installed on a Mig-29. Keep in mind these aesa's are for fighter aircraft and not ships or awacs platforms which is considerably more impresive because of their compact size. Many countries that have aesa awacs are still stuggling to make an aesa radar compact enough to fit on a fighter.


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## aimarraul

Chinese Air Force official: China's fourth-generation fighters refer to modified J-10 fighters


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## mDumb

Hey, J10 is old technology (it's not the latest fighter plane that PLAAF has in its inventory). Why bother discussing J10? BTW, the US Pacific commander was inside a J10. If you know China, this means J10 it's not a secret or latest and greatest weapon anymore.

China's technology on stealth:
Some people think that the United States of America is the only nation with Stealth Fighters, Surveillance UAVs and Bombers that the enemy cannot see. But you might be surprised to learn that the British now have stealthy Unmanned Aerial Vehicles UAVs and the Chinese also have a Fighter Aircraft, which is largely believed to be heavy on the side of Russian Technology. Chinese spies have also gotten a hold of many of the United States Military Stealth Technology such as the Bombay doors on the B-2 Stealth Bomber.

What do the Chinese call their stealth fighter aircraft? The JX and the J-XX and although you do not hear a lot about it in the mainstream media, they have them and they are almost impossible to see on modern day radars. In fact some of the Russian Technology for Bomber Aircraft is so good right now that a flight of bombers penetrated Canadian airspace over the North Pole without detection for the first time and now some military observers are thinking that maybe there is a "Stealth Technology Aircraft Gap" coming soon.

Apparently what is even worse is that the J-XX Chinese Fighter can be built for a lot less money than the US F-35 Fighter and thus they may end up with many more of these aircraft than the US Congress is willing to build using US Technology. Now some are saying that our technology is being stolen faster than we can make it and that the Russian-Chinese Technology for Stealth Aircraft really is all our technology anyway? So much for Black Projects, meanwhile all top military nations chase new technologies into the future and we must all consider this in 2006.

True China's 5th generation fighter plane:
China is developing new 5th generation "stealth" fighter, which is being developed under a programmed variously referred to as XXJ, J-X, or J-XX by Western intelligence sources and is apparently designated as J-14.


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## Luftwaffe

mDumb..as name suits you go through the whole forum..


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## gambit

Peregrine said:


> My point is that people tend to over rate American & Russian technology.


And you are incorrect.



Peregrine said:


> Please tell me if it reminds you of any American Stealth Bomber


The Horten Ho-229 was designed as a flying wing because the flying wing is the most aerodynamically efficient in terms of range. The flying wing's shape does favor low radar reflectivity but can be increased by material composition or other 'doodads' attached to the aircraft.



Peregrine said:


> Vera Radar developed by Czech Republic & also exported to USA


Yeah...We bought *ONE*. That does not qualify as an 'export' as the word imply volume quantity for widespread deployment. There is nothing extraordinary about it even though it is a well designed passive sensor. I advise you not to buy into the hype that it can detect US 'stealth' aircrafts. It cannot.



Peregrine said:


> Worlds only ASBM developed by China


Speculative at best.


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## faithfulguy

Speeder 2 said:


> Chinese millitary almost NEVER discloses any hardware in its entire history before it's completely finished and well-inducted in the PLA. So you won't see ANY hard proof as there is no such a thing in public domain before JXX is in service.
> 
> That is a mentality significantly different from that of the West where most projects are well-known even before they started, particularly in India where most weapon systems have been considered done and ranked as amongst world's bests even before the colours in the drawing board are still wet.
> 
> All the stuffs on the market on JXX are either outright rumours or educated guess. If you don't believe in the best possible educated guess from foriegn intelligence agencies and some domestic hardcore millitary experts with creditable track records, then you'd better say stuffs such as there is hardly ANY nuclear weapon in China after all, because China has never admitted that she has more than 1. And you won't find any proof on that either, you bet!
> 
> 
> Yes, due to some considerable head start, mainly benefitting from the insane millitary built-up of the Cold War era, both the US and Russia are ahead of China in Space techonologies in general, up to now.
> 
> So? China's overall industrial base is already larger and more advanced than that of Russia. It was considered "inconceivable" just 2 decades back. e.g. electronics of Chinese millitary hardware have already started surpassed those of Russia, which includes those inside war planes. This is because Chinese semi conductor/electronic industry as a whole has already surpassed Russia's.
> 
> You can see examples like this in other industries everywhere if your eyesights are oke. No hard feelings.
> 
> Unless you are of advanced age with grandchildren already, you'll live to see the day when China is on par with, even surpass, most of the best US techologies one by one, let alone Russia's.



I agree that China would soon surpass that of Russia soon. But as for China surpass the US technology, unless you are 5 and live until 95, its most likely not going to happen.


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## scuthan

ptldM3 said:


> We have ateast two AESA varients though none are in operational fighters, several of them are installed on Mig-35's and one of them, the Phazatron, is installed on a Mig-29. Keep in mind these aesa's are for fighter aircraft and not ships or awacs platforms which is considerably more impresive because of their compact size. Many countries that have aesa awacs are still stuggling to make an aesa radar compact enough to fit on a fighter.



You guys are still using A50 AWACS equipped with obsolete MSA radar while chinese KJ2000s are using AESA radar, right?

In terms of Civilian electronic industry, Russia is not even comparable to Singapore, not to mention china. I haven't even heard Russia has civilian electronic industry. 

When I was a child, I know Lada and GAZ imported from Sovitet Union. Today everyone knows russia is a failed country selling cheap raw materials, caviar, and whores. Their advantages in military industry arising from the insane milittary buildup during USSR era is sharply diminishing now


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## Zebronic

self delete...


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## Lankan Ranger

*China Developing Two Stealth Multi-role Fighter's 

J-13 Stealth Multi-role Fighter

J-14 Stealth Multi-role Fighter*


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## ptldM3

scuthan said:


> You guys are still using A50 AWACS equipped with obsolete MSA radar while chinese KJ2000s are using AESA radar, right?



Clearly you have never heard of the NNIIRT 1L119 Nebo SVU, NIIR Zhuk-AE or N001, also who buys equipment from who? How many times have the Chinese hired Russian engineers or requested that Russia transfer technology, and yes you heard right China has asked for tansfer of technology.




scuthan said:


> In terms of Civilian electronic industry, Russia is not even comparable to Singapore, not to mention china. I haven't even heard Russia has civilian electronic industry.



You're an clown.



scuthan said:


> When I was a child, I know Lada and GAZ imported from Sovitet Union. *Today everyone knows russia is a failed country selling cheap raw materials, caviar, and whores*. Their advantages in military industry arising from the insane milittary buildup during USSR era is sharply diminishing now



It was nice knowing you.

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## Lankan Ranger

*J-14 Stealth Multi-role Fighter Israeli Technology (Western YF-23 Project)*

*J-14 *



*YF-23*


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## Lankan Ranger

*YF-23*


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## Lankan Ranger

*YF-23*


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## Lankan Ranger

*J-13 Stealth Multi-role Fighter Russian Technology (Mikoyan Project 1.44)*

*J-13*






*Mikoyan Project 1.44*


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## Lankan Ranger

*Mikoyan Project 1.44*


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## Lankan Ranger

*Chinese Stealth Engines 1 *

*Saturn AL-41*

The NPO Saturn AL-41F is a Russian variable-bypass ratio turbofan engine, designed for supercruise flight. It is considered by Jane's as the Russian counterpart to GE's YF-120 engine which lost to the more conventional fixed-bypass YF-119 in the ATF engine competition.

*Design and development*

The Al-41F program was launched in 1985, and the first protoype engine flew in a Tu-16 Badger testbed in 1990. *Originally developed for the Mikoyan Project 1.44 the engine was built around the geometry of the AL-31F, making it compatible with existing airframes*

*J-13 & Al-41F Engine *
*
A heavily-upgraded version of the Al-41F is being developed for the J-13.*

AL-41F Engine Info: Saturn AL-41 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Lankan Ranger

*AL-41F Engine*


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## Lankan Ranger

*Chinese Stealth Engines 2* 

*The Pratt & Whitney PW1120 turbofan was a derivative of the F100 turbofan. Powered the IAI Lavi.*

*Development*

The development of the PW1120, according to Israeli Air Force (IDF/AF) specifications, started in June 1980. It retained the F100 core module, gearbox, fuel pump, forward ducts, as well as the F100 digital electronic control, with only minor modifications. Unique PW1120 components included a wide chord low pressure (LP) compressor, single-stage uncooled low pressure (LP) turbine, simplified single stream augmentor, and a lightweight convergent/divergent nozzle. 

Full scale testing was initiated in June 1982, and flight clearance of the PW1120 was tested in August 1984. The PW1120 had 70 percent similarity with the F100, so the IDF/AF would not need a special facility for spare parts. It would be built under licence by Bet-Shemesh Engines Limited in Israel.

Pratt & Whitney PW1120 Engine Info:Pratt & Whitney PW1120 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*
The General Electric YF120 was a variable cycle turbofan engine designed by GE Aircraft Engines in the late 1980s/early 1990's the Advanced Tactical Fighter (ATF) project.*

*Development*

General Electric began developing the YF120 for the ATF competition in the early 1980s. GE elected against developing a conventional low bypass turbofan and instead chose to design a variable cycle engine.

This decision was made as a result of the challenging ATF requirement of supercruise. This meant the engine had to produce a large amount of dry thrust (without afterburner) and therefore have high off-design efficiency ("design" being standard cruise conditions).

General Electric YF120 Engine Info: General Electric YF120 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*
A heavily-upgraded version of PW1120 AND YF120 is being developed for the J-14*


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## Lankan Ranger

*PW1120 Engine* 






*YF120 Engine*


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## jagjitnatt

Sri Lankan said:


> *PW1120 Engine*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *YF120 Engine*



Why are you flooding the thread with American and Russian fighters and engines, when the thread is about Chinese stealth fighter?

Chinese are going to use their own engines, avionics, missiles etc for their stealth fighter.


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## SinoIndusFriendship

faithfulguy said:


> I agree that China would soon surpass that of Russia soon. But as for China surpass the US technology, unless you are 5 and live until 95, its most likely not going to happen.



I'm doing my part, don't know if I will be successful -- but each and every day I work on it, never giving up. Whether China will surpass the USA (and how soon) depends on actual hard-work, nothing less, nothing more. One person can make a massive difference. 1.4 billion people can make an bigger difference. 1.8 billion people (total world Chinese population) even bigger difference. 3.0 billion people (total 'Mongoloid' population) working together, an ever bigger difference. 4.5 billion people (total Asian population) an astronomical difference. 6.4 billion (total human population) an immense difference.

Now if all those people worked together, instead of pulling in separate directions --> mind-blowing!

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## scuthan

ptldM3 said:


> Clearly you have never heard of the NNIIRT 1L119 Nebo SVU, NIIR Zhuk-AE or N001, also who buys equipment from who? How many times have the Chinese hired Russian engineers or requested that Russia transfer technology, and yes you heard right China has asked for tansfer of technology.



i know waht you mean and iam glad you mentioned N001. china replaced those equipped on the su-27 procured from Russia. there is no deny russia is ahead of china in most fields of military industry because of insane investment during cold war, but the gap is narrowing by leaps and bounds. Could you tell me how many another yrs you are going to rely on A50, while your neighbours are equipped with AESA AWACS. Apart from KJ2000 AWACS, China has also developed AESA for jet fighters. it is a open secret except that we don't know its designation. have a look at the antenna of J-10B, it is as clear as day.

Next time when accuse others of copying, don not forget the history of yrsef. what is Tu-4? isn't a copy of B-29? how did you build your industry from scratch? Yes, steal and copy. How many tech you stole from the US during lenin's new economy policy and America's great depression? the cars produced by GAZ are copies of American Ford. even trucks made by russia today keep the style of 1930's Chrysler. let me kindly remind you that Soviet Union did not have intellectual property protection law until 1989 and all IP protection laws are non-retro-spective, how comes china illegally copied Su-27?

Russia was supposed to fell the fate of Ottoman turkey in the early 20th century but disruptted by the presence of October Revolution. Now it resumes and it is just the beginning of the story. Russia is yesterday's news and please be satisfied selling raw materials, caviar, and whores. You got plenty of years to sell. but your days for military industry are counted

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## SinoIndusFriendship

scuthan said:


> i know waht you mean and iam glad you mentioned N001. china replaced those equipped on the su-27 procured from Russia is to replace it. there is no deny russia is ahead of china in most fields of military industry because of insane investment during cold war, but the gap is narrowing by leaps and bounds. Could you tell me how many another yrs you are going to rely on A50, while your neighbours are equipped with AESA AWACS. Apart from KJ2000 AWACS, China has also developed AESA for jet fighters. it is a open secret except that we don't know its designation. have a look at the antenna of J-10B, it is as clear as day.
> 
> Next time when accuse others of copying, don not forget the history of yrsef. what is Tu-4? isn't a copy of B-29? how did you build your industry from scratch? Yes, steal and copy. How many tech you stole from the US during lenin's new economy policy and America's great depression? the cars produced by GAZ are copies of American Ford. even trucks made by russia today keep the style of 1930's Chrysler. let me kindly remind you that Soviet Union did have intellectual property protection law until 1989 and all IP protection laws are non-retro-spective, how comes china illegally copied Su-27?
> 
> Russia was supposed to fell the fate of Ottoman turkey in the early 20th century but disruptted by the presence of October Revolution. Now it resumes and it is just the beginning of the story. Russia is yesterday's news and please be satisfied selling raw materials, caviar, and whores. You got plenty of years to sell. but your days for military industry are counted



Now no need to get defensive when others are defensive. While what you say is true, the last part is should not be said. There will be even more FALSE negative things others will say to us as we improve ourselves. It is because they are frightened of losing their 'supremacy', and they are SABOTAGING to keep others down.

Don't let this bother you. I can tell you it is not easy -- it is true you have to work harder in Asia to survive and prosper than it is in America. However there is a major problem of racist discrimination (often 'subtle') levied against all non-whites in America. In all areas of politics, education, business, military, media, etc -- there is a 'glass ceiling'. And when you attempt to break this glass ceiling, they knock you down to the ground senseless!

That has happened countless times to me and all others. But unlike many others who lost hope, have broken morale, shattered self-esteem ---> I have never given up. I don't fear them. I'm not intimidated by them. I continue on.

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## ptldM3

scuthan said:


> i know waht you mean and iam glad you mentioned N001. china replaced those equipped on the su-27 procured from Russia.



 you're thinking of the wrong radar pal, it's N001-N011M.

Before you boast about Chinese radars read this:



> Russian radar design houses Phazotron and NIIP had worked closely in the past with the Chinese radar design bureaus and provided technical assistance as well as operational models of Russian-made radar sets that were used as benchmarks in the process of these Chinese firms developing their own design




KLJ-7 Radar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



scuthan said:


> there is no deny russia is ahead of china in most fields of military industry because of insane investment during cold war, but the gap is narrowing by leaps and bounds. Could you tell me how many another yrs you are going to rely on A50,



The A50's are receiving upgrades in the form of A50-M. Get a few things strait, in order for China to "catch up" Russia would have to suspend all of its work, that isn't gong o happen. If you think we have been doing nothing since 1991 you are badly mistaken, we have made or are in the process of making: KA-50, Pak-fa, stealth bomber, S-400, S-500, Topel-M, SU-34, SU-35, Mig-35, GLONASS, T-95, Zhuk AE, N011M, and a feet of ships and submarines, and this is what i can think of from the top of my head, hence there is more.




scuthan said:


> while your neighbours are equipped with AESA AWACS. Apart from KJ2000 AWACS, China has also developed AESA for jet fighters. it is a open secret except that we don't know its designation. have a look at the antenna of J-10B, it is as clear as day.



Now you can tell what type of radar the J-10 has by simply looking at it's atenna? 




scuthan said:


> how comes china illegally copied Su-27?



I never mentioned the SU-27 but i would love an explanation regarding the breach of contract in regards to its avionics.






scuthan said:


> Russia was supposed to fell the fate of Ottoman turkey in the early 20th century but disruptted by the presence of October Revolution. Now it resumes and it is just the beginning of the story. Russia is yesterday's news and please be satisfied selling raw materials, caviar, and whores. You got plenty of years to sell. but your days for military industry are counted



You have to be pretty pathetic to spew that garbage, it just shows who you really are.


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## scuthan

ptldM3 said:


> you're thinking of the wrong radar pal, it's N001-N011M.
> 
> Before you boast about Chinese radars read this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KLJ-7 Radar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> The A50's are receiving upgrades in the form of A50-M. Get a few things strait, in order for China to "catch up" Russia would have to suspend all of its work, that isn't gong o happen. If you think we have been doing nothing since 1991 you are badly mistaken, we have made or are in the process of making: KA-50, Pak-fa, stealth bomber, S-400, S-500, Topel-M, SU-34, SU-35, Mig-35, GLONASS, T-95, Zhuk AE, N011M, and a feet of ships and submarines, and this is what i can think of from the top of my head, hence there is more.
> 
> 
> Now you can tell what type of radar the J-10 has by simply looking at it's atenna?
> .



The specifications of T50 are much left to unknown, its stealth ability and propulsion are still in question. boast it till there is evidence at the point that it is not another variant of Su-27 family. Many of the toys you mentioned began before 1991 and were not in service until recent years, like S-400. S-500 and T-95 are still on paper. Su-34 and Su-35 are variant of Su-27. They primarily benefit from the technology stockpile during the cold war, which are rapidly running out. I am afraid that time won't stand by your side. 

What is A50-M? is it a new camera of Canon? what amaze me the most is that a russian expert said that China's new digital camera KJ2000 is a copy of Russian film camera A-50.

As for J-10B radar part, forget it. only the tip of iceberg among numerous evidences. there are tons of report on china's AESA on internet, sources from military magazine, researcher of institutes involved, subtle agenda report from the websites of institute, etc. Since they can make a AESA radar for AWACS, it is possible to make one for fighters.

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## ptldM3

scuthan said:


> The specifications of T50 are much left to unknown, its stealth ability and propulsion are still in question.




I never mentioned anything about the T-50's capabilities. However, some people on this thread have already concluded the T-50 is inferior to the J-XX, but when i asked for a link people started calling me names and insulting my country.



scuthan said:


> boast it till there is evidence at the point that it is not another variant of Su-27 family. *Many of the toys you mentioned began before 1991*




KA-52 (1994) S-400 (1999) T-95 (1995) S-500 (1999-20xx?) SU-35BM (1998 first flight) NIIP aesa (recent) zhuk-ae (recent) pak-fa (2002)



scuthan said:


> and were not in service until recent years, like S-400. S-500 and T-95 are still on paper.



S-400 is in service and the T-95 could be introduced this year.




scuthan said:


> Su-34 and Su-35 are variant of Su-27. They primarily benefit from the technology stockpile during the cold war, which are rapidly running out. I am afraid that time won't stand by your side.



The SU-34 has very little in common with the SU-27, if your talking about looks than the SU-35 does share commonality with the SU-27 but even then it has slightly redesigned intakes and vertical stanbs, not to mention it's avionics are totally new and have nothing in common with with and SU-27.


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## scuthan

ptldM3 said:


> I never mentioned anything about the T-50's capabilities. However, some people on this thread have already concluded the T-50 is inferior to the J-XX, but when i asked for a link people started calling me names and insulting my country.



Don't dramatize it, it is not the reason you got insulted.




ptldM3 said:


> KA-52 (1994) S-400 (1999) T-95 (1995) S-500 (1999-20xx?) SU-35BM (1998 first flight) NIIP aesa (recent) zhuk-ae (recent) pak-fa (2002)
> 
> 
> S-400 is in service and the T-95 could be introduced this year.



S-400 were in service in 2007. S500 and T-95 are imaginary till now. T-95 is merely a concept tank. its Prototype might be made in years and it is decades ahead of induction, even if proved more than a joke. The current T-90 has already greatly behind the age. 

These projects have been planned long before it really began




ptldM3 said:


> The SU-34 has very little in common with the SU-27, if your talking about looks than the SU-35 does share commonality with the SU-27 but even then it has slightly redesigned intakes and vertical stanbs, not to mention it's avionics are totally new and have nothing in common with with and SU-27.



Su-35 use upgraded avionics and transmission. The radar and mechnancial tranmission of original su27 are terrible. Other contemporary third gen jets such as F-15 and F16 have also go through changes from their original version to the degree nothing less than Su35 did. J11B also did that from Su-27. It is not a breakthrough of russian aviation but improved variant.

Let me put it straight, your yesterday achievement were made from the insane investment during cold war. in 1980, USSR's GDP was 70&#37; of the US while the military expense was basically the same. how much money do you invest in military industry on the yearly basis since dissolution of Soviet Union? I afraid it won't be good looking compared with US and China.

there is no miracle in front of cold statistics. do you think you can make major breakthrough with tiny money like magic breaking out of tin air. you know the answer

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## RAHUL INDIAN

scuthan said:


> Don't dramatize it, it is not the reason you got insulted.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> S-400 were in service in 2007. S500 and T-95 are imaginary till now. T-95 is merely a concept tank. its Prototype might be made in years and it is decades ahead of induction, even if proved more than a joke. The current T-90 has already greatly behind the age.
> 
> These projects have been planned long before it really began
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Su-35 use upgraded avionics and transmission. The radar and mechnancial tranmission of original su27 are terrible. Other contemporary third gen jets such as F-15 and F16 have also go through changes from their original version to the degree nothing less than Su35 did. J11B also did that from Su-27. It is not a breakthrough of russian aviation but improved variant.
> 
> Let me put it straight, your yesterday achievement were made from the insane investment during cold war. in 1980, USSR's GDP was 70&#37; of the US while the military expense was basically the same. how much money do you invest in military industry on the yearly basis since dissolution of Soviet Union? I afraid it won't be good looking compared with US and China.
> 
> *there is no miracle in front of cold statistics*. do you think you can make major breakthrough with tiny money like magic breaking out of tin air. you know the answer



Dont use vague statements.... give proof and stats.....the reality is propaganda is not gonna work.... What the others have learnt in DECADES Chinese are not gonna have in few years.... 

Also 
your GDP is just 30% oF US GDP....so no where you are at the level where Russians were for years...

secondly it is about tradition....a child who is always looking at some copy to cheat and do questions, is always going to do that only.....
he cant beat the one who solve the questions himself....

*just to give you a fact...THE subs which you will have in 2015-2020 will be thirty years behind the subs from Russia at that point of time....hows that for a fact....*


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## Speeder 2

faithfulguy said:


> I agree that China would soon surpass that of Russia soon. But as for China surpass the US technology, unless you are 5 and live until 95, its most likely not going to happen.



 See, some recent historical events may help refresh your blurring judgement: 

Japan's war plane techs led the US during most part of WWII; 

the US tech made its name mainly during the Cold War and notablely 80s; ( note: large part of US tech haven't been made by the whites, but by brains from overall the world, notablely Chinese immigrants; just go to any big name lab in the US uni camps and start counting! )

Japan was deemed as tech basket case during 50s; it took it 30yrs to claim technological supremacy over the US; Japan in 80s , to a very large extent even today, led the US in almost any high tech field you could count except maybe aerospace& millitary which have been restricted by the US;

China is technically the same as Japan ethnicly - almost the highest average IQ in the world; but with probably 10X its population albeit with much later start of industrialisation;

After the delay due to the civil war and destruction of communism, how long will it take for China to lead, or draw even with, the US technologically? "95 years" ? HA HA HA.  you are day dreaming.

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## SinoIndusFriendship

RAHUL INDIAN said:


> Dont use vague statements.... give proof and stats.....the reality is propaganda is not gonna work.... What the others have learnt in DECADES Chinese are not gonna have in few years....
> 
> Also
> your GDP is just 30% oF US GDP....so no where you are at the level where Russians were for years...
> 
> secondly it is about tradition....a child who is always looking at some copy to cheat and do questions, is always going to do that only.....
> he cant beat the one who solve the questions himself....
> 
> *just to give you a fact...THE subs which you will have in 2015-2020 will be thirty years behind the subs from Russia at that point of time....hows that for a fact....*



Too much BJP/RSS Propaganda isn't good for you. I've seen India, and India is no better off than Libya.


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## ptldM3

scuthan said:


> Don't dramatize it, it is not the reason you got insulted.



Then what was the reason? Some member started saying that the J-xx is better than th pak-fa than he started talking about how great Chinese techology is and how it's better than Russia's, then when i asked for a link i was called a jew, jealous ect and then when you came along you took it beyond acceptable limits.




scuthan said:


> S-400 were in service in 2007. *S500 and T-95 are imaginary till now. T-95 is merely a concept tank. its Prototype might be made in years and it is decades ahead of induction*, even if proved more than a joke. The current T-90 has already greatly behind the age.





> Russia's new main battle tank (MBT), *the T-95, could be exhibited for the first time at an arms show in the Urals Region this summer*, the developer and future manufacturer of the tank has said, according to RIA Novosti.



defence.professionals | defpro.com

Last i heard 2012 was the introduction date for the S-500 and the T-95 may go into production anytime between 2010-2012 and not "decades away" like you claim.





scuthan said:


> Su-35 use upgraded avionics and transmission. The radar and mechnancial tranmission of original su27 are terrible. Other contemporary third gen jets such as F-15 and F16 have also go through changes from their original version to the degree nothing less than Su35 did. J11B also did that from Su-27. It is not a breakthrough of russian aviation but improved variant.



Aircraft don't have transmissions.



scuthan said:


> Let me put it straight, your yesterday achievement were made from the insane investment during cold war. in 1980, USSR's GDP was 70&#37; of the US while the military expense was basically the same.



I think i have already provide sufficient examples of Russian technology that had nothing to do with the USSR, Russia has created totally unique weapons that have zero relation to anything the USSR had, with your logic i can say everything China has is because of Russia.




scuthan said:


> how much money do you invest in military industry on the yearly basis since dissolution of Soviet Union? I afraid it won't be good looking compared with US and China.



Both China's and Russia's military budgets are no were near that of the US, China's budget is larger than Russia's but China also has a bigger army and that cost money, feeding, dressing, training, proving showers, weapons and many other necesities cost money, so i would not brag.

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## SinoIndusFriendship

Speeder 2 said:


> See, some recent historical events may help refresh your blurring judgement:
> 
> Japan's war plane techs led the US during most part of WWII;
> 
> the US tech made its name mainly during the Cold War and notablely 80s; ( note: large part of US tech haven't been made by the whites, but by brains from overall the world, notablely Chinese immigrants; just go to any big name lab in the US uni camps and start counting! )
> 
> Japan was deemed as tech basket case during 50s; it took it 30yrs to claim technological supremacy over the US; *Japan in 80s , to a very large extent even today, led the US in almost any high tech field you could count except maybe aerospace& millitary which have been restricted by the US*;
> 
> China is technically the same as Japan ethnicly - almost the highest average IQ in the world; but with probably 10X its population albeit with much later start of industrialisation;
> 
> After the delay due to the civil war and destruction of communism, how long will it take for China to lead, or draw even with, the US technologically? "95 years" ? HA HA HA.  you are day dreaming.



An example: The concord project was SABOTAGED.

Like I said before, one person can make a big difference, imagine 2 BILLION people.

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## liteon

...............................................................
.........................
....gay


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## RAHUL INDIAN

Speeder 2 said:


> China is technically the same as Japan ethnicly - almost the highest average IQ in the world; but with probably 10X its population albeit with much later start of industrialisation



lolllllllll......Yes gr8 logic....MASTER PIECE....Even Vietnam is the same...and so is Mongolia.......U guys are in real trouble...

It is a country as a whole, it doesnt have anything to do with ur failed logic....



Speeder 2 said:


> After the delay due to the civil war and destruction of communism, how long will it take for China to lead, or draw even with, the US technologically? "95 years" ? HA HA HA.  you are day dreaming.



Lolllllllll.............how many countries have communism ..??
so what if you have ended it....do others have it....so how ur ending communism is advantage when others already dont have it...


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## SinoIndusFriendship

I can't imagine so many people are debating about something that doesn't have much public info on.

In fact, the F-22 and F-35 specs are also unknown. How many of us here have seen these two birds fly?

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## below_freezing

95 years? no way.

in 1949 we were using civil war era weapons. under even chairman mao's rule, by 1970 we went from being unable to produce rifles to producing nuclear submarines, some US fighter equivalents like J-8 to F-4 and hydrogen bombs. in effect, we leaped ahead 100 years in the span of 20, but we were STILL behind the US, but the gap narrowed from 100 years in 1949 to a mere 30 years in 1970. the gap then widened to 40 years in 1980's and early 90's as we stuck with F-4 equivalents while the US moved on with F-15s and F-16s. But in late 90's we began catching up again, and the gap has narrowed ever since 1996. Right now it's probably at a mere 15-20 years.

Will the US continue its lead? if current trends persist, a mere 20 years later we will be equivalent.


----------



## RAHUL INDIAN

liteon said:


> lol fact....according to ONI which is the so called fact when they need funding..
> 
> http://www.armscontrolwonk.com/images/349.jpg
> ArmsControlWonk: How Capable is the 094?
> 
> and according to ONI when they have enough funding..they have a noise level for a sub that even she is not on drawing board yet..lol
> 
> http://www.armscontrolwonk.com/images/1628.png
> 
> 
> and the indians jerking off for nothing..lol



lollllllllllllll.... thanks go and check the graph again... that will again prove how the chinese subs in 2015-20 at that time, will be behind by 30 years to the Russian subs....

ArmsControlWonk: How Capable is the 094?

and also look at the below:
China's Subs Getting Quieter - Defense News


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## liteon

SinoIndusFriendship said:


> I can't imagine so many people are debating about something that doesn't have much public info on.
> 
> In fact, the F-22 and F-35 specs are also unknown. How many of us here have seen these two birds fly?



you're correct. i believe when i see it. all these nonsense should just let the Indians do it. look at in indian forum..a lot of vaporware talks and nothing..


----------



## liteon

RAHUL INDIAN said:


> lollllllllllllll.... thanks go and check the graph again... that will again prove how the chinese subs in 2015-20 are behind by 30 years to the Russian subs....
> 
> ArmsControlWonk: How Capable is the 094?
> 
> and also look at the below:
> China's Subs Getting Quieter - Defense News



you don't get it? it's from the same ONI that overestimate and underestimate when ever they feel like it, even sub not even on drawing board..haha first link 094 is almost = latest russian nuke sub, which is BS..


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## RAHUL INDIAN

liteon said:


> you don't get it? it's from the same ONI that overestimate and underestimate when ever they feel like it, even sub not even on drawing board..haha



the 094 is already there....
Type 094 submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

the 095 work is going on, so they supposed to know something about it...
Type 095 submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## RAHUL INDIAN

liteon said:


> haha first link 094 is almost = latest russian nuke sub, which is BS..


buddy you got it totally wrong....
the Y axis is the noise level.. higher you go higher the noise level...
the X axis is the year sub is introducted.... 
so it does not say 094==latest Russian nuke
it is 
China sub 094 or 095(in 2020 timeframe) at that time will be 30 years behind Russian sub..


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## liteon

...........................................................................................................................................................................................crap


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## liteon

okay i've read it wrong..still the noise level from sub that not hit the water yet is BS..

this chart was made in 1997 before 093 and 094 started construction..
http://www.armscontrolwonk.com/images/349.jpg

now they make another chart for 095 that's still on drawing board


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## RAHUL INDIAN

liteon said:


> okay i've read it wrong..still the noise level from sub that not hit the water yet is BS..



if so then all the debate on this thread about Chinese stealth planes is also useless.....*but buddy it is usual to discuss future weapons and their capabilities and there is nothing wrong in it.....*


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## scuthan

RAHUL INDIAN said:


> buddy you got it totally wrong....
> the Y axis is the noise level.. higher you go higher the noise level...
> the X axis is the year sub is introducted....
> so it does not say 094==latest Russian nuke
> it is
> China sub 094 or 095(in 2020 timeframe) at that time will be 30 years behind Russian sub..



It is really a great thing to predict the noise of nuclear sub to be finished ten years from now. it's music for you, isn't it?

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## liteon

RAHUL INDIAN said:


> if so then all the debate on this thread about Chinese stealth planes is also useless.....*it is usual to discuss future weapons and their capabilities.....*



absolutely........


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## RAHUL INDIAN

scuthan said:


> It is really a great thing to predict the noise of nuclear sub to be finished ten years from now. it's music for you, isn't it?



when you can predict the WHOLE technological ability of US, Russia and can give accurate time lines, like 20/30/40 years so n so.. this is nothing coming from a professional institute..having gr8 resourses at its command....and 10 years in Military technology is nothing.... there is already debates going on this thread about Chinese planes which is far beyond this decade...


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## scuthan

ptldM3 said:


> Last i heard 2012 was the introduction date for the S-500 and the T-95 may go into production anytime between 2010-2012 and not "decades away" like you claim.
> 
> Aircraft don't have transmissions.



when you want induct a new type of tank.first you need to make a prototype to test its performance, resolve the problems found in the tests, and then make more prototypes on the basis of the test results of former ones. then small scale of production is needed to test their reliability under different conditions before they are mass produced and inducted. A decade is a minimum.

There isn't a prototype of T-95 so far, and perhaps there will never be one. Latest news says Putin has rescind this joke project.



> On April 5 the Russian government discussed the program for the development of the national defense industry for 2011-2020. The Prime Minister Vladimir Putin appealed to the military to define what weapons they really need and for what tasks. He stated that 40% of defense R&D programs dont result in anything representing just a waste of resources.
> 
> The military was quick to respond. Two days later deputy defense minister and chief of armaments Vladimir Popovkin announced that a number of programs for development of new armor and artillery weapons will be cancelled. The main victim is the mysterious Object 195 program that was aimed to develop a new generation main battle tank to replace existing T-80 and T-90 tanks in the Russian Army. The new tank also dubbed T-95 has been developed by Nizhny Tagil Uralvagonzavod armor manufacturer in complete secrecy for more than 15 years. Popovkin said the military will focus on modernization of the T-90 instead.



Ares Homepage

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## Speeder 2

RAHUL INDIAN said:


> lolllllllll......Yes gr8 logic....MASTER PIECE....Even Vietnam is the same...and so is Mongolia.......U guys are in real trouble...
> 
> ...



Vietnam is a NorthEast Asian country mainly due to its culture and history, Chinese confucius culture and a tributary vassel state of Imperial China for centries, together with a large size of ethnic Chinese community there. 

However, Vietnamese by and large are NOT NorthEast Asians ethnicly, but SouthEast Asians, the same as Tais, Laos, Malays, etc.

Mongolians, a tiny population btw, are of the same race as Han but it has a long tradition of being an uncultured nomad steppe historically. Inner Mogolians have largely been absorbed by Han, while Outer Mongolians nowaday have significant blood mixing with Central Asians and Russians.

And it seems that you forgot mentioning North Korea? 

tell you what, if North Koreans adropt market-oriented capitalism tomorrow as all other NorthEast Asian states, they will most likely beat India in scitech as well in the not distant future, in spite of their current sorry tin-pot state, which is obviously behind India.



RAHUL INDIAN said:


> It is a country as a whole, it doesnt have anything to do with ur failed logic....
> ...



My "failed" logic?  Mind you that you just agreed that it DOES have everthing to do with my logic by saying "It is a country as a whole". Exactly so! Haven't Indu's average IQ told the whole story already?  



RAHUL INDIAN said:


> Lolllllllll.............how many countries have communism ..??
> so what if you have ended it....do others have it....so how ur ending communism is advantage when others already dont have it...



? 

no idea with what kind of logic and order u r talking and laughing about...  

Go find a psychiatrist, will you?


----------



## RAHUL INDIAN

Speeder 2 said:


> Vietnam is a NorthEast Asian country mainly due to its culture and history, Chinese confucius culture and a tributary vassel state of Imperial China for centries, together with a large size of ethnic Chinese community there.
> 
> However, Vietnamese by and large are NOT NorthEast Asians ethnicly, but SouthEast Asians, the same as Tais, Laos, Malays, etc.
> 
> Mongolians, a tiny population btw, are of the same race but it has a long tradition of being an uncultured nomad steppe historically. Inner Mogolians have largely absorbed by Han, while Outer Mongolians nowaday have significant blood mixing with Central Asians and Russians.
> 
> 
> 
> My "failed" logic?  Mind you that you just agreed that it DOES have everthing to do with my logic by saying "It is a country as a whole". Exactly so! Haven't Indu's average IQ told the whole story already?
> 
> 
> 
> ?
> 
> no idea with what kind of logic and order u r talking and laughing about...
> 
> Go find a psychiatrist, will you?



you have a problem in reading ur post urself....go read it first and then u will undstnd my reply....


----------



## Peregrine

gambit said:


> And you are incorrect.
> 
> 
> The Horten Ho-229 was designed as a flying wing because the flying wing is the most aerodynamically efficient in terms of range. The flying wing's shape does favor low radar reflectivity but can be increased by material composition or other 'doodads' attached to the aircraft.
> 
> 
> Yeah...We bought *ONE*. That does not qualify as an 'export' as the word imply volume quantity for widespread deployment. There is nothing extraordinary about it even though it is a well designed passive sensor. I advise you not to buy into the hype that it can detect US 'stealth' aircrafts. It cannot.
> 
> 
> Speculative at best.





Hi
first of i don't think u went through my post thoroughly my post was a reply to Stealth who had mentioned that no other other country can even make missiles without American or Russian help, But i guess you are in denial as well that Germans were the first to use Ballistic missiles and Americas, Russians & Brits took it after the WW2.I am not in habit of posting URL's so kindly look V2 rocket up in Wikipedia, you will be surprised.
Okay now let us review your reply
1.You have admitted your self why Americans copied German design, so i rest my case, my reply was to point out others achievements not to go into their technical mumbo jumbo.
2.Regarding the export of Vera Radar again, look that up in Wikipedia, its not my word. But you are admitting that USA purchased one Vera from Czech, why would America bother to purchase some thing which was so inferior to high tech American technology, & petty excuses won't make your post convincing at all.
3. LoL okay, if that's how you feel. then i am in no mood to go through the trouble of posting how much Americans are stressed out about it 
Rest of the countries can produce high tech equipment as well, and these examples are just a slight proof of that, feel free to disagree, i don't expect to convince Americans who attacked Iraq under the pretext of WMD's & later on accepted flaws in their intelligence, I know how propaganda works, No excuses u give will be good enough to justify the American & Russian larceny of German technology. and BTW "No i am not Incorrect. You are rather you are in Denial"

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## PEACEMAKER2010

Sri Lankan said:


> *J-13 Expected to be like this, J-13 had received support from Russian Mikoyan Project 1.44.*



this picture is of russian mig 1.44 project

source
Mikoyan Project 1.44 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## PEACEMAKER2010

Peregrine said:


> Hi
> are you forgetting something it was Americans & Russians who stole German Ballistic missile technology, remember V2 rockets,Many of those German proposed fighter jets from second world war were also copied by Russians & Americans, worlds number 1 tank is still a German tank, about submarine every body knows  My point is that people tend to over rate American & Russian technology.
> 
> Please tell me if it reminds you of any American Stealth Bomber
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vera Radar developed by Czech Republic & also exported to USA
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Worlds only ASBM developed by China



american B2 buddy

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## PEACEMAKER2010

*my dear lankan next time if post a thread please back it with reliable sources other wise it will damage the reputation of this forum*


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## PEACEMAKER2010

Dear srilankan we had already discussed about the chinese stealth fighter in this same forum i just dont get it why u brought up again

*source*

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/25307-chinese-stealth-fighter-j-xx.html

*I HUMBLY REQUEST MODERATORS TO MERGE THIS THREAD IN THE ABOVE LINK THANK YOU*


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## Speeder 2

Peregrine said:


> Hi
> ... But i guess you are in denial as well that Germans were the first to use Ballistic missiles and Americas, Russians & Brits took it after the WW2.I am not in habit of posting URL's so kindly look V2 rocket up in Wikipedia, you will be surprised.
> Okay now let us review your reply
> 1.You have admitted your self why Americans copied German design, so i rest my case, my reply was to point out others achievements not to go into their technical mumbo jumbo.



Allow me add something to this point. Remember Tsien Hsue-shen, the Father of Rocket & Space Industry of China, who just passed away a year ago?

Tsien was a pioneer and one of a handful leading scientists in the world at a time who laid the foundation of America's rocket ( hence space) industry.

The fact that USA sent Tsien Hsue-shen to Germany at the end of WWII to interview captured leading German scientists Wernher von Braun and Rudolph Hermann, tells how important Tsien was to the US at a time.

*This part of history was pretty ironic:*

so rightly representing USA, the future "Father of Rocket & Space Industry of China" (*Tsien Hsue-shen*), was interviewing (and interrogating) the future "Father of Rocket & Space Industry of USA" (*Wernher von Braun*) , on rocket technologies. 

Tsien returned to China in 1954 and single-handedly started China's rocket industry, from there the famous The Second Artillery Corps (SAC) of PLA came into being.


(A side note: from this angle, one can also get a hint on how early and at what level Chinese missile tech has started, and what ought to be the current level of China's missile tech logically compared with USA, Russia, and India as well -refer to the most recent outragous claims by Indians.)

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## mDumb

<(A side note: from this angle, one can also get a hint on how early and at what level Chinese missile tech has started, and what ought to be the current level of China's missile tech logically compared with USA, Russia, and India as well -refer to the most recent outragous claims by Indians.)>

Why even bother to list India? If you read the articles on missile technology it's very obvious China is closing in with the US.

The latest demonstration of China's missile capability was to shoot down an aging satellite.

Western intelligence sources have learned that China is working on ballistic missile that will destroy a US aircraft carrier thousands of miles away. This is not an easy task to defeat ACS.


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## ptldM3

scuthan said:


> when you want induct a new type of tank.first you need to make a prototype to test its performance, resolve the problems found in the tests, and then make more prototypes on the basis of the test results of former ones. then small scale of production is needed to test their reliability under different conditions before they are mass produced and inducted. A decade is a minimum.
> 
> There isn't a prototype of T-95 so far, and perhaps there will never be one. Latest news says Putin has rescind this joke project.




Wrong! They had a prototype for many years called the black eagle, there are pics all over the internet and even videos. Also the latest prototype or perhaps the final design is/was to be exhibited this year, so it's conclusive that there are atleast two prototypes that the public is aware of, how many prototypes there are all together is unknown but there are certainly more than two.






scuthan said:


> Ares Homepage



I want to point out that there was sources claiming the pak-fa was canceled, so much for those sources. BTW this is not the first time the T-95 was supposedly "canceled". Just a month ago they where planing to exhibit the tank at a Russian arms expo this year, India also signed on as a partner which makes it even more strange that they would decide to cancel the project esspecially when it's nearly complete.


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## gambit

Peregrine said:


> 2.Regarding the export of Vera Radar again, look that up in Wikipedia, its not my word. But you are admitting that USA purchased one Vera from Czech, *why would America bother to purchase some thing which was so inferior to high tech American technology,* & petty excuses won't make your post convincing at all.


We have always tried to accumulate Soviet products, such as the top secret USAF Soviet fighters that we flew as training aids...

Constant Peg


> For more than a decade, until just before the November 1989 fall of the Berlin Wall, a secret Air Force aggressor unit flew Soviet MiGs in more than 15,000 sorties against US Air Force, Navy, and Marine Corps pilots.



After the Soviet Union ignobly and spectacularly collapsed, the former Soviet satellites called US and asked if we wanted to go shopping. We did went shopping with the world's largest shopping cart -- the C-5 Galaxy. We bought samples of everything, from rifles to tanks to aircrafts to even ballistic missiles. We have always know the Soviets were at least one generation behind US overall but studying the products of Soviet technology inevitably give US insights on how Soviet/Russian designers compensate for areas they know they are behind US.

The Vera radar system is no different and the one that we bought is precisely for study purposes...

AR 381-26 Army Foreign Material Exploitation Program


> This regulation-
> a. Prescribes policies, responsibilities, and procedures for conduct of
> the Army Foreign Material Exploitation Program (FMEP).
> b. Defines the Army FMEP as life-cycle type management of foreign ground
> force systems, related material, and foreign commercial items required for
> the following:
> (1) Production of scientific and technical intelligence in support of
> force, combat, and material development.
> (2) Assessment of foreign technology, design features, and scientific
> developments for infusion into U.S. developmental efforts.
> (3) Support of U.S. systems, and developmental testing/operational testing
> (DT/OT) by providing adversary systems for use in evaluating U.S. systems
> capabilities.
> (4) Development of simulator systems in support of simulation of foreign
> systems.
> c. Emphasizes support for planning of force, combat, and material
> development and for building a cost-effective, strong U.S. technology base.
> d. Provides centralized management of the Army FMEP.


Not just the US Army but also USAF and USN have their own versions of 'foreign technology exploitation' programs. Each service focused on the areas applicable to their expertise.

So for you to believe that we bought one Vera radar system is because we think the system is somehow superior to what we have is simply -- delusional. Am not saying everyone else in the world is stupid compared to US. Am saying that based upon the quantity that we bought -- one -- it is the safer bet that we bought it for the same reason why had _Constant Peg_.


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## gambit

PEACEMAKER2010 said:


> american B2 buddy


Which did not came from the Ho-229.

Flying wing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Study the above source. You will find that among aviation pioneers, the flying wing's efficacy as far as long distance goes came soon and independently to them, after all, the most noticeably parts of any aircraft are the wings so an engineer's natural curiosity would compel him to isolate the wing and make it the dominant feature. The B-2 did not came from the Germans.


----------



## Akasa

J-20 doesn't exist. It might be a general name for all Chinese stealth fighters.

J-13 is a multirole stealth aircraft.

J-12 and J-14 are the same aircraft. It is an air-superiority stealth aircraft.

The only Chinese 5th-generation fighters are J-13 and J-14.

According to some reports, both aircraft have been built in prototypes and is going through flight testing (which will take at least 5 years)

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## tomluter

It is sliping in Chengdu, today and lastday.









so exciting in each Chinese military forum today.

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## siegecrossbow

^^ I know!!! The frustrating thing is that almost no one on Pak-Defence is talking about the J-XX!!! We had hundreds of pages of discussions when the J-XX was still just speculation but now no one is discussing when a potentially real image is out!!!

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## kakalalaso

agree. it really surprised me.


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## Martian2

siegecrossbow said:


> ^^ I know!!! The frustrating thing is that almost no one on Pak-Defence is talking about the J-XX!!! We had hundreds of pages of discussions when the J-XX was still just speculation but now no one is discussing when a potentially real image is out!!!



At least "gambit" isn't around. I like to think of him as Dr. No.

Proposition: China beat Vietnam senseless in the Sino-Vietnamese border war.

Gambit: No.

Proposition: China has a new anti-ship ballistic missile.

Gambit: No.

Proposition: China is developing MIRVs.

Gambit: No.

Proposition: China is developing new nuclear submarines.

Gambit: No.

Proposition: China is developing an aircraft carrier.

Gambit: No.

Proposition: China is developing a stealth fighter.

Gambit: No.

Proposition: Gambit, I think your mind is stuck in the 1970s.

Gambit: No.

Proposition: I have news articles to back up these assertions.

Gambit: I don't care. You are a fanboy.

As you can see, it might be a good thing that Dr. No isn't around to annoy us.

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## applesauce

some have the pic without the red paint marks?


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## aimarraul

applesauce said:


> some have the pic without the red paint marks?


clear pics.......




















B-2 land on china ?
*&#35299;&#25918;&#20891;&#31354;&#20891;&#21103;&#21496;&#20196;&#36212;&#38414;&#33391;&#26816;&#26597;&#33322;&#31354;&#37325;&#28857;&#22411;&#21495;*






*Obama: Sell B-2 Bomber blueprints to China for debt relief!*

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## gambit

Martian2 said:


> At least "gambit" isn't around. I like to think of him as Dr. No.
> 
> <snipped>
> 
> As you can see, it might be a good thing that Dr. No isn't around to annoy us.


Just do not say anything that defy the laws of physics and/or common sense, else this 'Dr' will put his foot down toot-sweet......But I do enjoy the Photochops.


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## siegecrossbow

aimarraul said:


> clear picsP
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> B-2 land on china ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ? >>
> 
> 
> *Obama: Sell B-2 Bomber blueprints to China for debt relief!*





I think applesauce wanted pictures of the actual plane lol but I think that the pictures you posted are great indirect proofs. No other explanation for the flurry of high rank officials visiting CAC.


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## below_freezing

gambit said:


> Just do not say anything that defy the laws of physics and/or common sense, else this 'Dr' will put his foot down toot-sweet......But I do enjoy the Photochops.



Statistically, China is very likely to surpass the US.

While both nations have a similar average IQ (100 vs. 98) (citation: IQ and the Wealth of Nations), innate ability does not determine everything. Chinese students have superior training in the fundamentals of science and literature while the US is spiraling down in all academic fronts (citation: PISA 2009 report). In addition, because the standard deviation of IQ is invariant across all populations, the much higher population of China, the already higher average IQ and superior training of that IQ lead to a greater population of highly intelligent peoples that are more likely to contribute to scientific and social progress than the US as well as a lower population of exceptionally low IQ burdens to society. The US is currently facing a crisis caused by its buildup of low IQ and nonproductive old people, caused by the mass procreation of whites after WW2, and as the momentum of immigration slows due to financial crisis, will lose its technical edge formed mostly by buying talent from overseas. The reason the US surpassed the UK was, despite its average lower IQ than the British, the US had a much higher population capable of supporting a much larger high IQ class than the British.

The successors of the US would be the nations with populations large enough (China and perhaps, one day, India) to support a much larger class of high IQ peoples. India, however, is also burdened with a very large population of low IQ, and until it develops an education system that effectively makes up for their genetically lower IQs, will not be able to compete effectively on the world stage.

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## gambit

tomluter said:


> It is sliping in Chengdu, today and lastday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> so exciting in each Chinese military forum today.


Hhmmm....Very interesting...Based upon four years on the F-111, I dare say that outline looks waaaayyy too much like an F-111, especially the large vertical stab. There is a 'bulge' under the shape that seems practically identify the position of the F-111's main landing gear. The trees are barren of leaves and the rest of the pix seems to indicate a typical English fall morning: cold, foggy, and wet. At RAF Upper Heyford, the base is separated by a public highway, aka 'Queens Road'. The flightline, aircraft support, and weapons depot are on one side, base housing and wing support facilities on the other and is quite open. Anybody could stroll straight in. Only the flightline is fenced and guarded. This picture looks like it was from the road at end-of-runway (EOR) where an F-111 would have a final inspection before take-off.

At EOR and outside of the base proper, there was a camp composed of 1960s leftover peacenik members of Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament (CND). We call them 'CNDers' and many Americans who drove by the camp would roll down their windows and blast out Black Sabbath's 'War Pigs', never mind that it was supposedly an anti-war song......There was a lady, looked like in her late 50s back then, who everyday stood by the wire fence, like one clearly in the pix above, with closed eyes in prayer -- for hours and even in the snow. Guess her prayers worked because the Soviet Union collapsed...

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## siegecrossbow

gambit said:


> Hhmmm....Very interesting...Based upon four years on the F-111, I dare say that outline looks waaaayyy too much like an F-111, especially the large vertical stab. There is a 'bulge' under the shape that seems practically identify the position of the F-111's main landing gear. The trees are barren of leaves and the rest of the pix seems to indicate a typical English fall morning: cold, foggy, and wet. At RAF Upper Heyford, the base is separated by a public highway, aka 'Queens Road'. The flightline, aircraft support, and weapons depot are on one side, base housing and wing support facilities on the other and is quite open. Anybody could stroll straight in. Only the flightline is fenced and guarded. This picture looks like it was from the road at end-of-runway (EOR) where an F-111 would have a final inspection before take-off.
> 
> At EOR and outside of the base proper, there was a camp composed of 1960s leftover peacenik members of Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament (CND). We call them 'CNDers' and many Americans who drove by the camp would roll down their windows and blast out Black Sabbath's 'War Pigs', never mind that it was supposedly an anti-war song......There was a lady, looked like in her late 50s back then, who everyday stood by the wire fence, like one clearly in the pix above, with closed eyes in prayer -- for hours and even in the snow. Guess her prayers worked because the Soviet Union collapsed...



I'm saving this post for later reference.


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## Merilion

gambit said:


> Hhmmm....Very interesting...Based upon four years on the F-111, I dare say that outline looks waaaayyy too much like an F-111, especially the large vertical stab. There is a 'bulge' under the shape that seems practically identify the position of the F-111's main landing gear. The trees are barren of leaves and the rest of the pix seems to indicate a typical English fall morning: cold, foggy, and wet. At RAF Upper Heyford, the base is separated by a public highway, aka 'Queens Road'. The flightline, aircraft support, and weapons depot are on one side, base housing and wing support facilities on the other and is quite open. Anybody could stroll straight in. Only the flightline is fenced and guarded. This picture looks like it was from the road at end-of-runway (EOR) where an F-111 would have a final inspection before take-off.
> 
> At EOR and outside of the base proper, there was a camp composed of 1960s leftover peacenik members of Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament (CND). We call them 'CNDers' and many Americans who drove by the camp would roll down their windows and blast out Black Sabbath's 'War Pigs', never mind that it was supposedly an anti-war song......There was a lady, looked like in her late 50s back then, who everyday stood by the wire fence, like one clearly in the pix above, with closed eyes in prayer -- for hours and even in the snow. Guess her prayers worked because the Soviet Union collapsed...



ok. let's forget abt trees and fence for a moment. concentrate on the plane. is it a F111 or any other existing plane? i'm no military expert so need guru to confirm.

the pic after image processing. courtesy to CD:

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## gambit

Merilion said:


> ok. let's forget abt trees and fence for a moment. concentrate on the plane. *is it a F111* or any other existing plane? i'm no military expert so need guru to confirm.
> 
> the pic after image processing. courtesy to CD:


Never said it was but said that shape looks too much like it. And your image 'processing' does not help. We are better off with the original.


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## Merilion

gambit said:


> Never said it was but said that shape looks too much like it. And your image 'processing' does not help. We are better off with the original.



thanks, so it is a 'new' plane?
i guess i was carried away by your so many touching words abt trees,fence,english fogy wet morning...and a lady prayer at the RAF airbase


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## aimarraul



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## gambit

Merilion said:


> thanks, so it is a 'new' plane?


If you boys say so...



Merilion said:


> i guess i was carried away by your so many touching words abt trees,fence,english fogy wet morning...and a lady prayer at the RAF airbase


Am touched. Never thought of myself as a wordsmith but am flattered that someone could be that gullible. But then again, with so much Photochop fanboy art passed around as sources, I should not expect much from you boys.

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## Dragon Emperor

One thing for sure is the final version of this fighter will have advanced avionics, AESA, engine with thrust vectoring and supercruise, stealth and inner-bay weapons storage.

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## Martian2

I don't know whether the picture is genuine or not. However, it looks interesting and it's all that we have at this moment. Like everyone else, I'm waiting for more information and further developments.

The Chinese stealth fighter will be unveiled at some point. Is it this one? Maybe. 

Happy holidays.

Yours truly,

Martin

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## Speeder 2

aimarraul said:


> clear pics.......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> B-2 land on china ?
> *&#35299;&#25918;&#20891;&#31354;&#20891;&#21103;&#21496;&#20196;&#36212;&#38414;&#33391;&#26816;&#26597;&#33322;&#31354;&#37325;&#28857;&#22411;&#21495;*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Obama: Sell B-2 Bomber blueprints to China for debt relief!*



old fotos, though, ...
*
However, IMO this is it! The real deal !*


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## Speeder 2

gambit said:


> Hhmmm....Very interesting...Based upon four years on the F-111, I dare say that outline looks waaaayyy too much like an F-111, especially the large vertical stab. There is a 'bulge' under the shape that seems practically identify the position of the F-111's main landing gear. The trees are barren of leaves and the rest of the pix seems to indicate a typical English fall morning: cold, foggy, and wet. At RAF Upper Heyford, the base is separated by a public highway, aka 'Queens Road'. The flightline, aircraft support, and weapons depot are on one side, base housing and wing support facilities on the other and is quite open. Anybody could stroll straight in. Only the flightline is fenced and guarded. This picture looks like it was from the road at end-of-runway (EOR) where an F-111 would have a final inspection before take-off.
> 
> At EOR and outside of the base proper, there was a camp composed of 1960s leftover peacenik members of Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament (CND). We call them 'CNDers' and many Americans who drove by the camp would roll down their windows and blast out Black Sabbath's 'War Pigs', never mind that it was supposedly an anti-war song......There was a lady, looked like in her late 50s back then, who everyday stood by the wire fence, like one clearly in the pix above, with closed eyes in prayer -- for hours and even in the snow. Guess her prayers worked because the Soviet Union collapsed...




,,seems to indicate a typical English fall morning: cold, foggy, and wet.... 

yeah, what's the colour of the boathouse in bedford ?


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## Speeder 2

Martian2 said:


> At least "gambit" isn't around. I like to think of him as Dr. No.
> 
> Proposition: China beat Vietnam senseless in the Sino-Vietnamese border war.
> 
> Gambit: No.
> 
> Proposition: China has a new anti-ship ballistic missile.
> 
> Gambit: No.
> 
> Proposition: China is developing MIRVs.
> 
> Gambit: No.
> 
> Proposition: China is developing new nuclear submarines.
> 
> Gambit: No.
> 
> Proposition: China is developing an aircraft carrier.
> 
> Gambit: No.
> 
> Proposition: China is developing a stealth fighter.
> 
> Gambit: No.
> 
> Proposition: Gambit, I think your mind is stuck in the 1970s.
> 
> Gambit: No.
> 
> Proposition: I have news articles to back up these assertions.
> 
> Gambit: I don't care. You are a fanboy.
> 
> As you can see, it might be a good thing that Dr. No isn't around to annoy us.



....

(shouting) : Gambit, your house is on fire! 

Gambit : no.

(shouting) : for real that it's on fire...there're many eyewitnesses too!

Gambit: no, it defies the physical law of gravity...

( Shouting) : Da** it, get your a** over here, and quick!

Gambit: I don't care... err... and you are fanboys...

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## Speeder 2

Merry X-Mas and Happy Hollydays to you ALL!

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## Martian2

Note: Thank you to "marchpole" for the post.

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## Martian2

"To those who think that image is real

This ring any bell?

Anyways something worth knowing, I just realised two most recent threads (brand new) from FY concerning with image of j-20 were removed before I even got to view it... Think more leakages of j-20 is possible from there"






Note: Thank you to "Horizon" for the post.


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## SEAL

Any idea when PLAAF will release the pictures of J-xx?


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## Martian2

fox said:


> Any idea when PLAAF will release the pictures of J-xx?



I don't know, but amateur images are too unreliable. I will wait for the official announcement and release of pictures.


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## gambit

Speeder 2 said:


> ,,seems to indicate a typical English fall morning: cold, foggy, and wet....
> 
> yeah, what's the colour of the boathouse in bedford ?


Any shape and color you like. I can barely draw a stickman so I will have to defer to you boys' Photochop skills...


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## cloneman

fox said:


> Any idea when PLAAF will release the pictures of J-xx?


A lot of Chinese insiders already have the clear shoots of the J20,however no body wants to take the risk to release their pictures.Remember the guy who leaked the J10 prototype pictures without permission was jailed for ten years.Most likely the PLAAF will leak the J20 pictures on an impotant day,for example the Chinese National Day or the 1st August.Lets wait to see.

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## Martian2

J-XX - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"*U.S. Air Force and U.S. intelligence officials have stated their belief that China likely has all the resources, data and technology required to build a fifth generation fighter.* However, doubts remain on whether China has enough knowledge in areas such as systems engineering, integration and production processes to build a fighter comparable to U.S. stealth designs which can also be produced in large numbers."

Jane's: J-XX prototype may fly by the end of the year -- LiveWire Teen Forums

"Date Posted: *09-Dec-2010*

*Jane's Defence Weekly*

Russia, China push fifth-generation fighter programmes to meet year-end milestones

Reuben F Johnson JDW Correspondent - Kiev

A second prototype of the Sukhoi T-50 (PAK-FA) fifth-generation fighter aircraft will make its first flight by the end of this year, according to Russian defence industry spokespersons.

As with the first prototype, this aircraft will be flown initially from the Dzemgi aerodrome adjacent to the Komsomolsk-na-Amure Aviation Production Association. After initial-acceptance test flights, it will be transferred to the Gromov Flight Research Institute in Zhukovsky.

Sukhoi's general director, Mikhail Pogosian, stated that a T-50 will also be flown in a display at the MAKS International Aviation and Space Salon in August 2011.

A source close to the programme told Jane's that "the end-of-the-year deadline may not be met, but the aircraft will fly very soon - either before the end of 2010 or just after the [beginning of the] new year". Russian aircraft programmes - even in Soviet times - have often had year-end deadlines for first flights that came down to near photo finishes.

*Meanwhile, rumours have emerged from China's Chengdu Aerospace Corporation (CAC) and the adjoining Aircraft Plant 132 that a Chinese-developed fifth-generation fighter prototype may also fly by the end of the year. Reportedly, two airframes - numbered 2001 and 2002 - have been assembled at the plant.

According to Russian industry sources, the programme - sometimes referred to as 'J-20' - is a joint design effort between CAC and the Shenyang Aircraft Corporation, with Chengdu taking the lead on the development.*

Jane's Defence Weekly - Your first line of defence"


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## siegecrossbow

cloneman said:


> A lot of Chinese insiders already have the clear shoots of the J20,however no body wants to take the risk to release their pictures.Remember the guy who leaked the J10 prototype pictures without permission was jailed for ten years.Most likely the PLAAF will leak the J20 pictures on an impotant day,for example the Chinese National Day or the 1st August.Lets wait to see.



Given how long they took to acknowledge J-10 I'm sure that they won't officially release the pictures until a couple squadrons of the plane are already in service.


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## gambit

Martian2 said:


> I don't know whether the picture is genuine or not. However, it looks interesting and it's all that we have at this moment. Like everyone else, I'm waiting for more information and further developments.
> 
> The Chinese stealth fighter will be unveiled at some point. Is it this one? Maybe.
> 
> Happy holidays.
> 
> Yours truly,
> 
> Martin


Considering the subject under discussion, the default assumption should always be: Not. Remember the rule: Extraordinary claim demands extraordinary evidence. I do not know if that pix is genuinely from a top secret Chinese air force base or not, but its image quality is simply too terrible to even consider bringing it into a discussion. Anyone who live in the Oxford-Bicester-Banbury area and read my argument against that pix will know exactly what I was talking about and will be able to bring his own experience into that pix and discredit the argument for it. That is how bad this 'evidence' is for this extraordinary claim.


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## below_freezing

gambit said:


> Considering the subject under discussion, the default assumption should always be: Not. Remember the rule: Extraordinary claim demands extraordinary evidence. I do not know if that pix is genuinely from a top secret Chinese air force base or not, but its image quality is simply too terrible to even consider bringing it into a discussion. Anyone who live in the Oxford-Bicester-Banbury area and read my argument against that pix will know exactly what I was talking about and will be able to bring his own experience into that pix and discredit the argument for it. That is how bad this 'evidence' is for this extraordinary claim.



We can extrapolate from China's much higher population of high IQ persons than the US that this claim has a high probability of being correct. With the bulk of the US's high IQ persons being top tier graduate students from countries like India, China, Iran, Germany, Korea, etc. as soon as the US economy starts going down, those with high IQs would find it more profitable to leave, and the US will be stuck with a heavy burden of low IQ persons, sucking up their social security benefits, dragging down the economy further, causing an even greater flight of high IQ persons, etc.


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## Martian2

gambit said:


> Considering the subject under discussion, the default assumption should always be: Not. Remember the rule: Extraordinary claim demands extraordinary evidence. I do not know if that pix is genuinely from a top secret Chinese air force base or not, but its image quality is simply too terrible to even consider bringing it into a discussion. Anyone who live in the Oxford-Bicester-Banbury area and read my argument against that pix will know exactly what I was talking about and will be able to bring his own experience into that pix and discredit the argument for it. That is how bad this 'evidence' is for this extraordinary claim.



Why are you quoting the Sagan rule to me without attribution to the source?

Marcello Truzzi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Truzzi is credited with originating the oft-used phrase "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof," which Carl Sagan then popularized as "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."[12] However, this is a rewording of a quote by Laplace which goes, "The weight of evidence for an extraordinary claim must be proportioned to its strangeness."[13] This, in turn, may have been based on the statement "A wise man, therefore, proportions his belief to the evidence" by David Hume.[12]"

The fallacy in your logic is that you believe the claim, "China has a prototype stealth fighter," is extraordinary.

As quoted from Wikipedia, which has referenced footnote sources, and Jane's Defence Weekly, defense watchers expect China to conduct a test flight of her stealth fighter around this time period.

The only question is whether we are able to catch a glimpse of the Chinese stealth fighter. Unfortunately, it is extremely difficult to discern the difference between a fuzzy real picture and a fake. Therefore, the prudent course of action is to leave it to the professionals at Jane's to break the news.

By the way, welcome back Dr. No. With you and China issues, it is always raining; never a sunny day.


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## gambit

Martian2 said:


> Why are you quoting the Sagan rule to me without attribution to the source?


No need for attribution when this rule is well accepted and taught in academia.



Martian2 said:


> The fallacy in your logic is that you believe the claim, "China has a prototype stealth fighter," is extraordinary.
> 
> As quoted from Wikipedia, which has referenced footnote sources, and Jane's Defence Weekly, defense watchers expect China to conduct a test flight of her stealth fighter around this time period.
> 
> The only question is whether we are able to catch a glimpse of the Chinese stealth fighter. Unfortunately, it is extremely difficult to discern the difference between a fuzzy real picture and a fake. Therefore, the prudent course of action is to leave it to the professionals at Jane's to break the news.


Then until we see that flight, the claim remain extraordinary. Show me a source from _Jane's_ that specifically mention that pix as part of an assessment.



Martian2 said:


> By the way, welcome back Dr. No. With you and China issues, it is always raining; never a sunny day.


Always glad to pee on any extraordinary claim without supporting evidences.


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## Merilion

Martian2 said:


> By the way, welcome back Dr. No. With you and China issues, it is always raining; never a sunny day.



just leave Dr.No alone. his days of denying chinese 5th G fighter(or other chinese achievements) are numbered, no?

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## Dragon Emperor

Hey guys look at this vid below China's JXX might look like below:


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## HQ19HQ26

http://www.9ifly.cn/sub/thread-3229-42-1.html


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## aimarraul




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## Martian2

Merilion said:


> just leave Dr.No alone. his days of denying chinese 5th G fighter(or other chinese achievements) are numbered, no?



I have been unhappy with "gambit," because he applies a double standard. He demands a super-strict standard to anything regarding the Chinese military (e.g. show me every single piece of evidence or you're a fanboy).

However, when it comes to the U.S. military, Gambit becomes a fanboy himself and demands "no proof" for hard-to-believe claims. This is fundamentally unfair and raises serious questions about his bias, credibility, and sincerity.

I submit the following evidence. The common sense versus Gambit's "I'll swallow anything that RAAF squadron leader Chappell says" debate starts with post #103 in the link below.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/85440-paf-jxx-fifth-gen-fighter-7.html

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## cloneman

siegecrossbow said:


> Given how long they took to acknowledge J-10 I'm sure that they won't officially release the pictures until a couple squadrons of the plane are already in service.



J20 seems to be quit different from the J10.In 1990s China was more or less a developing poor country comparing today which was without too much confidence.The J7 and J8 were the backbone of the PLAAF .However,the PLAAF has 200 J10s,400 J11s,around 250 JH7A today which is a deadlly airforce around the world with more than 800 4th generation fighters.And all of them are indegenouselly made.
The weaker side always trends to hide something since it has noting.I dont think the PLAAF will consider itself a weak force anymore.It will be more than happy to show the world its powerful muscle.Perhaps they will station the first batch of J20 around 2015 or 2016.So unlike the J10,it wont take us that long to see the clear J20 pictures.

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## Merilion

Martian2 said:


> I have been unhappy with "gambit," because he applies a double standard. He demands a super-strict standard to anything regarding the Chinese military (e.g. show me every single piece of evidence or you're a fanboy).
> 
> However, when it comes to the U.S. military, Gambit becomes a fanboy himself and demands "no proof" for hard-to-believe claims. This is fundamentally unfair and raises serious questions about his bias, credibility, and sincerity.
> 
> I submit the following evidence. The common sense versus Gambit's "I'll swallow anything that RAAF squadron leader Chappell says" debate starts with post #103 in the link below.
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/85440-paf-jxx-fifth-gen-fighter-7.html



haha, takes it easy bro. 
i said Dr.No's days of denying chinese 5th gen fighter are numbered but i didn't really expect it's actually within hours 
but again he can still live in denial--i have no problem with that.

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## Akasa

aimarraul said:


>



That looks exactly like the JH-7B, which is still in flight testing.


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## Water Car Engineer

Looks different from any other fighter.

Is this it?


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## ptldM3

Varghese said:


> Looks different from any other fighter.
> 
> Is this it?



The front section is an F-22 and the rear is an SU-47. Clearly someone has too much time on their hands. Something to ponder, every single supposed J-XX picture is grainy and blurry, this leads me to the following conclusions: (A) no one in China has a decent camera, (B) all 3 dozen supposed 'leaked' J-XX pictures have a mysterious force field around them that causes pictures to come out blurred or (C) someone or someone(s) (probably a virgin) is dwelling in their parents basements making poor photoshops.

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## jian-10

don't forget the first pic leaked of the J10b was similarly blurry and grainy and I remember a lot of people quickly writing it off as a PS job. Some even going to great lengths analyzing it and explaining why it was a PS job lol. At the end it was the real J10b pic! So I wouldn't write this JXX pic as a PS job so quickly.

They are most likely taken with a camera phone, these guys don't want to be caught with a camera with telescopic lense lol


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## ptldM3

jian-10 said:


> don't forget the first pic leaked of the J10b was similarly blurry and grainy and I remember a lot of people quickly writing it off as a PS job. Some even going to great lengths analyzing it and explaining why it was a PS job lol. At the end it was the real J10b pic! So I wouldn't write this JXX pic as a PS job so quickly.





Show me that picture. I find it odd that real leaked pictures of aircraft such as J-10B look clear or at least clear enough to distinguish details, the J-XX, on the other hand looks terribly blurry. And oddly enough it looks identical to the F-22 front and SU-47 rear.




jian-10 said:


> They are most likely taken with a camera phone, these guys don't want to be caught with a camera with telescopic lense lol



I find it hard to believe that China's most secretive aircraft, an aircraft still years away from operation would be photographed out in the open by a civilian at a presumable secretive and highly secure testing installation . I believe a J-10 which enters low rate production for testing will inevitably get 'leaked' especially when there is little effort to conceal its existence but to take a picture of a prototype 'stealth' aircraft is another story. If it's this easy for civilians to get so close to the J-XX than it should not be too difficult for foreign intelligence to get close access to the project.


----------



## dingyibvs

ptldM3 said:


> Show me that picture. I find it odd that real leaked pictures of aircraft such as J-10B look clear or at least clear enough to distinguish details, the J-XX, on the other hand looks terribly blurry. And oddly enough it looks identical to the F-22 front and SU-47 rear.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I find it hard to believe that China's most secretive aircraft, an aircraft still years away from operation would be photographed out in the open by a civilian at a presumable secretive and highly secure testing installation . I believe a J-10 which enters low rate production for testing will inevitably get 'leaked' especially when there is little effort to conceal its existence but to take a picture of a prototype 'stealth' aircraft is another story. If it's this easy for civilians to get so close to the J-XX than it should not be too difficult for foreign intelligence to get close access to the project.



So, what you're saying is that from the side, the front of the J-20 looks like the F-22 and the back looks like the Su-37? Pretty good combo, no?

BTW, CAC isn't all that secretive, I'm sure foreign intelligence already has clearer pics of the thing.


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## scuthan

I believe a 5G jet fighter is currently under development. but i seriously doubt the credibility of these pics. they are incredibly blurry. besides do you guys know since when CAC begin to paint a huge red-star on a prototype aircraft under taxi test? that red-star looks awkward, looks PS work to me. it's not a good idea to trust every single pic from cjdby and fyjs.

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## Indestructible

scuthan said:


> I believe a 5G jet fighter is currently under development. but* i seriously doubt the credibility of these pics.* they are incredibly blurry. besides do you guys know since when CAC begin to paint a huge red-star on a prototype aircraft under taxi test? that red-star looks awkward, looks PS work to me. it's not a good idea to trust every single pic from cjdby and fyjs.



Ditto! Exactly my thoughts.


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## gambit

scuthan said:


> I believe a 5G jet fighter is currently under development. but i seriously doubt the credibility of these pics. they are incredibly blurry. besides do you guys know since when CAC begin to paint a huge red-star on a prototype aircraft under taxi test? that red-star looks awkward, looks PS work to me. it's not a good idea to trust every single pic from cjdby and fyjs.


According to these boys, the more blurry the pix, the more legitimate it is as a credible source. The blurriness give the pix a mysterious aura, akin to something super-duper secret has just been glimpsed by someone in hiding, waiting patiently for an opportunity. Too many B-rated spy movies...I guess...


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## lmjiao

&#203;&#191;&#180;&#248;&#204;&#214;&#194;&#219;&#215;&#168;&#204;&#251;(&#184;&#247;&#192;&#224;&#205;&#188;&#198;&#172;&#190;&#249;&#186;&#207;&#212;&#218;&#177;&#190;&#204;&#249;&#163;&#172;28&#200;&#213;&#184;&#252;&#208;&#194[Page:1] - &#191;&#213;&#190;&#252;&#176;&#230; - &#161;&#186; &#179;&#172;&#188;&#182;&#180;&#243;&#177;&#190;&#211;&#170;&#194;&#219;&#204;&#179; &#161;&#187; &#179;&#172;&#200;&#187;&#206;&#239;&#205;&#226; &#211;&#208;&#200;&#221;&#196;&#203;&#180;&#243; - Super Military Base


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