# F-16 Block 15MLU/50/52 Fighter



## KashifAsrar

*Bush administration intends to push ahead with F-16 sale to Pakistan 


By Chidanand Rajghatta/TNN 


Washington: The Bush administration intends to press ahead with its move to sell F-16 fighter jets to Pakistan by addressing Congressional concerns after lawmakers held up the process this week because of proliferation concerns. 
Ã¢â¬ÅIf staff members or members of Congress have concerns about the sale, we are certainly ready to provide more briefings on that, have more discussions with it. They have a say in this,Ã¢â¬Â state department spokesman Sean McCormack said, after senior lawmakers deferred a Congressional hearing scheduled for Thursday that would normally have ratified the administrationÃ¢â¬â¢s proposal to sell $5 billion worth of arms to Pakistan. 
The hearing was postponed after Tom Lantos, a Democratic lawmaker from California, and others expressed concerns about Pakistan allowing China access to the latest technology the jets are expected to have. Some lawmakers are also peeved that the state department did not give adequate notice to the Congress about the sale. Typically, the administration provides Congress an informal Ã¢â¬Åpre-notificationÃ¢â¬Â period of 20 days before the formal 30-day notification to consult on the deal. 
Unless the Congress objects, the deal goes through. 
In this case, the administration formally notified the Congress on June 28, which means lawmakers have until July 28 to consider the deal, about the same window it has to pass the US-India nuclear agreement. 
Evidently, the administration hopes to ride the Pakistan arms package on the coattails of the nuclear agreement, which some lawmakers seem to find objectionable. There was no pre-notification. 
But McCormack said there have been extensive consultations with the Hill on the F-16 issue. Ã¢â¬ÅThis isnÃ¢â¬â¢t a new topic. As a matter of fact, the consultations have been going on for 14 months, I think, is the right period of time,Ã¢â¬Â he said. Still, the administration would continue to work closely with the Hill, he added. Asked about lawmakersÃ¢â¬â¢ concerns about proliferation by Pakistan of the F-16 technology, McCormack said those and Ã¢â¬Åother types of concernsÃ¢â¬Â were taken into consideration in forwarding the proposal to the Hill. 
But Congressional sources said lawmakers were surprised by the expansive arms package that included items totally unrelated to the war on terrorism. Most of it is aimed at bolstering PakistanÃ¢â¬â¢s bloated military that typically feels emboldened by such hardware and has in the past used it against India. 
According to administrationÃ¢â¬â¢s proposal, it intends to sell Pakistan 36 latest generation F-16C/D Block 50/52 Falcon fighters built by Lockheed Martin. From all accounts, the package is aimed more preserving jobs in Fort Worth, Texas (where Lockheed Martin manufactures the F-16s) and keeping PakistanÃ¢â¬â¢s military happy, rather than hunting down Osama bin Laden or stabilising the region. 
McCormack however insisted that it is the right proposal for Pakistan. Ã¢â¬ÅWe believe itÃ¢â¬â¢s the right proposal for our bilateral relationship as well. And I think that our proposal, this proposal, takes into account not only those bilateral concerns but also regional concerns,Ã¢â¬Â he said. 
The senate foreign Relations Committee has also scheduled a classified briefing on the sale next week at which the administrationÃ¢â¬â¢s rationale for arms supply to Pakistan will come up for scrutiny. 
The House committee will hold a public hearing on July 20 after its doubts have been addressed in private. The expectation is that after a little song and dance routine, the sale will go through. *


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## Averroes

Congressional hearing on F-16 deal delayed

By Our Correspondent

WASHINGTON, July 13 A key congressional panel on Thursday postponed a hearing to review the $5.1 billion US arms package offered to Pakistan.

The 50-member house committee on international relations was due to hear John Hillen, the State Department&#8217;s Assistant Secretary for Political-Military Affairs, on Thursday on the deal, which includes new and old F-16 jets and their weapon systems.

The Congress has 30 days to act on the deal which was notified by Pentagon on June 28. If the lawmakers do not raise objections within the stipulated period, the deal will be considered endorsed.

The office of the chairman of the committee, Republican Congressman Henry Hyde, announced that the hearing had been postponed &#8216;until further notice&#8217; but gave no reason for the delay. The 18-member Senate foreign relations committee has not yet announced a hearing date.

Unless stopped by Congress by July 28, Pakistan will get 36 new F-16C/D fighter aircraft, 200 sidewinder missiles, 200 air-to-air missiles, 500 kits for ground-attack satellite-guided bombs and 36 advanced pilot helmets.

http://www.dawn.com/2006/07/14/top14.htm


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## Averroes

*US to push F-16 sale to Pakistan*

WASHINGTON: The Bush administration plans to push ahead with the proposed sale of F-16 fighter jets to Pakistan despite Indian concerns over its largest $5.1 billion arms package deal with Islamabad. 

"Our sale is based on what we think are legitimate needs of Pakistan for defensive purposes. And we proceed on that basis, not on the basis of what other people think or don't think about it," Richard Boucher, assistant secretary Of state for south and central Asian affairs told reporters at a briefing for the foreign media. 

Washington had not heard anything from the Indian government about the F-16 deal, he said. "That's up to the Indian government, if you want to ask them their attitude, go ahead." 

Foreign relations panels of both houses of the US Congress have scheduled hearings this week to review the F-16 sales after the Bush administration expressed readiness to address any Congressional concerns over it. Unless stopped by the Congress within 30 days, the deal notified by Pentagon on June 28 will go ahead.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1768097.cms


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## Owais

*$3 billion PAF upgradation plan unveiled* 

ISLAMABAD (July 18 2006): The Chief of the Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mehmood Ahmad, has unfolded a three-year $3 billion up-gradation and modernisation programme of the Pakistan Air Force under which it would get 44 more hi-tech F-16s along with their supporting hardware, weapon system, avionics and back-ups.

He was addressing his maiden news conference at PAF Headquarters here on Monday after taking over command of the Pakistan Air Force in March 2006, and his recent visits to the United States and China for the purchase of hi-tech aircraft and other avionics.

Air Chief Marshal Tanvir said that in order to maintain a minimum credible deterrence in the region, Pakistan is buying 18 F-16s CNB model, block 52 along with very essential hardware and weapons at a cost of $2 billion from the United States.

Additionally, he said there is a requirement to upgrade and enhance the operational capability of the existing 34 F-16s, bought in 1982-83 to a level where they are supportable world-wide otherwise these aircraft would become obsolete operationally and difficult to retain logistically.

He said the US government has agreed to hand over 28 F-16s to Pakistan which were manufactured for Pakistan in 1990s and Pakistan had paid $650 million in advance for these planes, but the US had withheld their delivery imposing sanctions on Pakistan.

He said it was a great diplomatic victory for Pakistan that despite paying back the $650 million advance money, the United States has now agreed to give delivery of these 28 F-16s to PAF at a nominal price after up-gradation of their operational capability.

"Two of these F-16s have already arrived in Pakistan and the rest 26 will join the PAF fleet in about 15 to 18 months", he happily announced.

He said that up-gradation of the existing 32 F-16s and purchase of the 28 old but operationally upgraded aircraft would cost $1 billion, but they would be very effective "key punch" and front teeth of the PAF.

Air Chief Marshal Tanvir said: "These pieces of hardware are not available in the international market, they take time to produce, but when you sign the contract you only pay 5 to 10 percent of the total amount."

He said that 18 new F-16s will take three years to start getting manufactured and being delivered to PAF while the existing 34 F-16s may take 7 to 8 years or may be more for up-gradation and modernisation.

The Air chief said that normally Air Forces of other countries do not retain their aero planes for more than two and a half decades but the PAF is still retaining its three to four decades-old planes. "The Mirages that came in 1967 and 1974 are still the major part of PAF fleet and they shall continue to be on our inventory for a couple of more years", he added.

Speaking about purchase of new F-16s, Air Chief Marshal Tanvir said: "They are vastly different from the old ones; they are bigger in size, carry more fuel; have the ability to carry more weapons, their radars are totally different, their engines are totally new, their avionics are totally new, they have the full capability of fighting in a network centric warfare, they can reach far off distances, and combatible with any hi-tech aero plane in the world today."

The Air chief said: "We are also very much aware of the force multipliers such as air-borne early warning systems and have recently concluded a contract for the purchase of air-borne early warning and remote system.

"In a modest way, we have also signed a small contract to have other force multiplier the air-borne refueler, not only to get that capability but also to provide training to our air and ground crew in that particular regime", he added.

He said: "The ratio of PAF to Indian Air Force (IAF) has traditionally been 1 to three, today we have 300 planes and they have over 900 planes.

"The numbers of IAF aircraft have never over-awed us or bothered us, it is the technological edge that we have enjoyed and it is the edge in the training and morale of the PAF personnel which we have always attained that have done us wonders in the past and that is our strength in future also", he emphasised.

He said: "The PAF is not dependent on one source of supply of weapons, we are diversified since the JF-17 aircraft that we are co-producing with the help of our Chinese friends, will be a major backbone of the Pakistan Air Force in future."

With regard to the possibility of US sanctions in future, the PAF chief said: "the environment has changed from the days of 1990s and the US administration talks clearly about the long-term strategic partnership with Pakistan, and I am sure they have also learnt from their experience in the past and will make no mistake in future."

He said: " The Pakistan Air Force is the only air force in the world which is engaged in the designing and manufacturing of the aircraft industry since we lack hi-tech industrial base in the country."

About carrying of nuclear war heads, the Air Chief said since it is a very sensitive area, we have never relied upon any particular aircraft, but our own indigenous capability and we shall continue to retain our indigenous capability, we don't need have this capability from anyone outside."


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## genmirajborgza786

one thing that i have read somewhere it say that the complete package(the $ 5.1 bllion sale of the f-16,s and missile) will be delivered with in a span of total 30 month,s or 18 months we cant afford that risk plain and simple not even two months the packages must be delivered in the shortest span of time or immidietly we cannot let even one sphare parts of the defence package remaining in the united states. given usa's track record say even if the deal is approved and we wait for 18 to 30 months(that will be very foolish and unpatriotic in the first palce) and in this time we have a political change say musharraf is ousted WHAT THEN?????? the u.s will just stop the shipment then and there and we will not get the defence package it will be one of the worst blow,s our countries defence can have, so what i am trying to say here is we should only buy stuff,s from america if they agree to deliver us the item,s right away the shipment should start as soon as the deal is finalized and the f-16,s missile,s the total $5billion f-16,s and defence package) should be in pakistan's possession imidietly if this is not possible we should not go for this deal($5billion f-16 and missle defence package deal with the U.S.A) as we cannot afford to trust the amaricans after the experience of batrayal of the preveous f-16,s deal in the eighties when they did not supply us the planes even when we had paid them the money for it. it should be now or never. or else we should look elsewhere IMO.


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## Owais

> *F-16 to Pakistan without nuclear warhead carrying capability * WASHINGTON: The F-16 fighter jets to Pakistan wouldnÃ¢â¬â¢t have nuclear warhead carrying capability and the United States would monitor to avoid leakage of the technology to China or any other country, John Hillen, assistant secretary of state for political-military affairs, told a Congressional hearing here.
> 
> He told the U.S. House of Representatives International Relations Committee that concerns about leakage of technology from Pakistan were being addressed by "an extraordinary security plan" imposed on the planes and components and accepted by Pakistan's Air Force.
> 
> "This sale will send a very clear signal of our commitment to a long-term relationship with Pakistan," Hillen told the committee. "We want to build this relationship precisely to help them get better at combating terrorism, Hillen later added.
> 
> Deputy Secretary of State Richard Boucher has hoped that the Congress will approve the F-16 fighter jets deal.
> 
> Despite the assurances and safeguards some congressmen expressed reservations about the deal. Lawmakers expressed concerns that the fighter jets' sophisticated technology could fall into the wrong hands.


what the hell is this??
I can't understand that how Block 50/52 will be made with out Nuke capablity?


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## melb4aust

Owais said:


> what the hell is this??
> I can't understand that how Block 50/52 will be made with out Nuke capablity?


 
From the very first day since J-10 was offered to Pakistan i was against this deal. 

Firstly as mentioned by *genmirajborgza786 *we should'nt trust US, as it happened in past, its hard to predict that cant happen in future. Getting our stuff in short time is wise thing to do. Secondly if they are giving them without the nukes delivery system, they should reduce the price. PAF will fit that system by itself, as they did with older F-16's, they are using these days.


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## Averroes

> He told the U.S. House of Representatives International Relations Committee that concerns about leakage of technology from Pakistan were being addressed by "an extraordinary security plan" imposed on the planes and components and accepted by Pakistan's Air Force.



This is alarming. What is this extraordinary security plan? Something that could be shared with Pakistan's enemy so they know our position 24-7?!


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## genmirajborgza786

also one congressional leader who is in favour of this deal sayed something like this

( PAKISTAN with f-16's will feel secured otherwise they will balance the ratio with nuclear means and unconventional methods to counter india's superiorities and thats what we dont want) once again i repeat it sounds something like this thats what( the nuclear way, the nuclear program and building it up advancing in building nuclear weapon's the american's do NOT wants us to do.

now tell what does this mean,s and the resent news that the f-16's will not have nuclear capabilities and the security paln to our generals have agreed what is it???? and why is the topic bieng related to nuclear capabilities this 
sounds like an consparacy theory for the betterment of pakistan and our nuclear program we must get to the bottom of this unique and surely unhealthy devellopments otherwise we as a nation will never be able to forgive ourself's for seems to be nothing less then a batrayal and a secrete consparicy.
may ALLAH save us from this evil. ameen:flag:


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## genmirajborgza786

the speaker,s name is mr. boucher and here is the attachment i got from NDTV indian isource while i was surfing the net but any how its always better to look into the matter
thanks u can open it as i saved it its safe but do read it thats what is important once again we need to confirm it also to be sure its not a propaganda but we should defenitely pay attention to it
thanks


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## Neo

Just posted this in the other F-16 thread.



> I don't understand why we're all whing about the nuclear delivery system, its not important!
> We need F-16C/D for airdefence, interception air superiority role, none of these requires nuclear warhead!
> 
> FGA option for PAF is still open, probably JF-20 will have the nuclear delivery capability
> 
> For the time being we can very well rely on our missiles, thats the most effective weapon we have to strike deep into India, something the F-16 cannot do!
> 
> So stop bashing the USA, inshallah the deal will be approved with all the systems we've asked for and we'll have a real killer here.
> 
> Btw, a typical attack formation will have JF-17 on the front, probably 8, complimented by 4-6 F-16 and 4 Mirage as I was told. :wink:


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## Neo

F-16s sale to Pakistan in national interest: US 


*WASHINGTON,*_ July 22, 2006_

US Assistant Secretary of State for South and Central Asia has said the administration believed that it was in United States' 'national interest' to proceed with the sale of F-16s to Pakistan.

Sale of F-16s, Richard Boucher stated, provides "a clear and concrete signal" to all Pakistanis that Pakistan's security "is important to the United States."

In a testimony before the House International Relations Committee, on 'The Sale of F-16s to Pakistan,' he expressed the hope that US law makers would "approve this transfer."

He said Pakistan was "a key country" and "a strategic partner in South Asia" a region of critical importance to the United States. The South Asian region, he added, was "one of our highest priorities in the war on terror."

Chairman Henry Hyde chaired the proceedings of a full member Committee hearing.

"A confident Pakistan that feels secure is more likely to pursue peace and co-operation with its neighbours." Boucher said the United States was working with Pakistan "to establish the basis for a stable, broad-based relationship."

He said: "During President Bush's recent visit we agreed to high-level dialogues on everything from energy to education to economics to science and technology."

"We are using our assistance money to improve education and health in Pakistan."

"We are also assisting Pakistan to recover and rebuild from the catastrophic earthquake which destroyed large areas in northern Pakistan last October."

"This was the most popular and welcome program we have provided Pakistan since we resumed providing assistance in 2001."

"We cannot focus exclusively on Pakistan's economic and development needs, however, and ignore its basic national security concerns."

Boucher said the United States was asking Pakistan "to do difficult things to protect Americans, and we must show concern in return for Pakistan's security.

Pakistan, Boucher added was "equally important" to the struggle against the spread of weapons of mass destruction. "And it is enjoying rapid economic growth."

"If peace and stability prevail and the region's economic expansion continues, we believe this region will become an international economic powerhouse."

"We want to support Pakistan's success as a moderate Muslim democratic nation," he said, adding: "this is the course President Musharraf has set."

The senior State Department official said: "Achieving this goal would stabilise the nation and the region against terrorism and give the people of Pakistan new opportunity in the modern world."

"Its economic potential is as great as its neighbours. Its ports and transportation links could play a major role in the prosperity of the region as a whole."

"We see Pakistan as one end of a land bridge extending across Afghanistan and into Central Asia." He said Pakistan's role in the struggle against al Qaida was well known, "but bears repeating." Almost every senior al Qaida leader now in custody, he added "was captured by Pakistan."

"Pakistan has put almost 80,000 troops on its border with Afghanistan and has conducted large-scale military operations aimed at flushing al Qaida and its allies out of the remote border country."

Boucher said these operations have been costly. Pakistan has lost several hundred soldiers while conducting them. "The political cost has been high, too. Al Qaida and its extremist allies assail the Pakistani government regularly for allegedly doing America's bidding with no benefit to Pakistan."

"These same extremists have also sought to foment rebellion in the tribal regions along the border." "The personal price paid by Pakistan's leaders has also been great.

President Musharraf has survived two assassination attempts by al Qaida and its allies. Prime Minister Aziz has survived one such attempt, and senior army officers have been targeted as well."

He said: "the leaders of Pakistan have demonstrated great personal courage while supporting our common struggle against terrorism."

The official said the 9/11 Commission suggested that "if President Musharraf is prepared to support us at the risk of his life," we should make the difficult decisions needed to establish a long-term commitment to the future of Pakistan. "We are following the Commission's advice, and the F-16s are an important part of that effort."


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## Owais

genmirajborgza786 said:


> the speaker,s name is mr. boucher and here is the attachment i got from NDTV indian isource while i was surfing the net but any how its always better to look into the matter
> thanks u can open it as i saved it its safe but do read it thats what is important once again we need to confirm it also to be sure its not a propaganda but we should defenitely pay attention to it
> thanks


 
Remarks from Boucher sounds quite possitive and in favour of pakistan.


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## Neo

He's a realist.


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## Neo

Unlike Gary Ackerman...:idiot:

Guess who's on Indian payroll..


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## Neo

*US Congressman introduces resolution disapproving F-16s for Pakistan* 



Washington, July 22: 

Mr Gary Ackerman, Democratic co-chair of the Congressional Caucus on India and Indian Americans, has introduced a joint resolution in the House of Representatives disapproving the proposed sale of F-16 fighter jets and other weapons to Pakistan in a $ 5.1 billion arms deal.

The resolution, introduced on Friday, has been referred to the House Committee on International Relations which on Thursday upbraided the Bush administration for what it called a calculated move to diminish Congressional authority in rushing the deal without the traditional 20 days of pre-notification consultations to address any of its concerns.

But despite the swell of all-round anger witnessed during an open hearing, there is little likelihood of the deal being blocked, as there was no real opposition to the F-16 sale as such from either Republican or Democrat members of the panel.

To block the deal notified to Congress on June 28, both the House and the Senate must pass resolutions rejecting it before the 30-day review period runs out next week - a prospect which appeared highly unlikely - and then override a Bush veto.

Mr Ackerman introduced the resolution despite assurances from the Assistant Secretary of State for Political-Military Affairs, Mr John Hillen that membersÃ¢â¬â¢ concerns about leakage of technology from Pakistan were being addressed by Ã¢â¬Åan extraordinary security planÃ¢â¬Â imposed on the planes and components, and accepted by the Pakistan Air Force.

Democrat, Mr Brad Sherman said the Congressional Ã¢â¬ÅoutrageÃ¢â¬Â over lack of consultations could not be addressed by mere promises of better behaviour in the future or a resolution of disapproval as proposed by Mr Ackerman. But he too was not opposed to the deal and wanted it to be kept on hold until the administration retraced its steps.

Describing Pakistan as a key country and a strategic partner in South Asia, Mr Hillen said Islamabad had paid a high political price with the Al Qaeda and its extremist allies assailing the Pakistani government regularly for allegedly doing AmericaÃ¢â¬â¢s bidding with no benefit to Pakistan.

http://www.navhindtimes.com/articles.php?Story_ID=072333


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## melb4aust

So whats gonna happen:what1: .

Even if they approve the deal, is Pakistan gonna get those avionics and same other stuff they've ordered. As they've already given the indication that the F-16's are not going to have usual advance tech along with the avionics.


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## Neo

We're going to get the deal, don't underestimate the Pakistan lobby. 
F-16 won't have the nuclear delivery capability, its not a high priority for us anyway, its vital that other systems are cleared to counter IAF.
Without those the F-16 is no better than the J-10. 
We'll be spilling money.


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## Averroes

ok but Neo, do you know what these measures are that the US are putting into the planes? tracking them or what?!


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## Neo

Averr&#246 said:


> ok but Neo, do you know what these measures are that the US are putting into the planes? tracking them or what?!


 
Basically bugs to track position if they leave Pak aerospace, but I'm speculating.
US' main concern is not Pakistan but China. Beijing is still years away from developping some systems we've asked for, even AMRAAM 120C is too advanced for China.

Although I'm not an expert in this field, I don't think the Pentagon will keep track of PAF all 96 Falcons 24/7, it might become too costly if possible at all.


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## genmirajborgza786

Neo said:


> We're going to get the deal, don't underestimate the Pakistan lobby.
> F-16 won't have the nuclear delivery capability, its not a high priority for us anyway, its vital that other systems are cleared to counter IAF.
> Without those the F-16 is no better than the J-10.
> We'll be spilling money.


 
no i dont agree at all, what did our lobby in the U.S do to get us the f-16,s that we brought in the eighties what have they done for pakistan to credit them could they even get us a nuclear deal similer to the us/india deal, thier track record in this matter in zero, nada, nill, nothing they have failed us before what,s the garuanty they wont fail us again there is a saying once beaten twice shy and still we rely on this lobby i say no to U.S weapon plain and simple we are not arabs $5.1 billion is alot of money and there are a lot of other markets we can shop for our defence need.
thank:flag:


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## Neo

Different times, different era, different leaders, different mutual interest and different geo-politics!
The magic word is the US led WoT in which Pakistan is and will remain a key ally for a long time to come unless our politicians mess up things!

US will be involved in Afghanistan for another few years, yet another battlefield is developping at our borders; Iran!
Chinese growing interest in Balochistan hence the Arabian See and our declared nuclear capability to name a few are all major factors that make Pakistan more important to the US than ever befor!

The Indo-US nuclear deal is not a big thing, its been blown out of proportion by the media and soem political leaders!
There's a difference between getting access to civil nuclear market and being recognised as a nuclear power. The latter is not the case!
Whatever India is getting, we'll get from China as the US will have set a precedent to bypass current policie which could very well result into full elimination of the NPT, which again is a joke in the first place!

Btw Pakistan is targetting a meager 8% power supplly from nuclear enery wich is achieveable from Chinese support and indigenious designs that are under study currently.

Ofcourse we have the option to look into other markets, surly $5.1 billion will open quite a few doors but its in our interests to invest in the USA and to deepen our long term relationship.

In the post 9/11 era, its in every muslim countries interest not to alienate the USA, we can gain more from this and imho we should without compromising our integrity.

Both parties have learnt from mistakes from the past as stated by Condoleesa Rice during her visit to Pakistan and US can not afford to alienate Pakistan, she need us asmuch as we need her.
Thats a first in our 58 year old history!


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## Averroes

Neo said:


> Basically bugs to track position if they leave Pak aerospace, but I'm speculating.
> US' main concern is not Pakistan but China. Beijing is still years away from developping some systems we've asked for, even AMRAAM 120C is too advanced for China.
> 
> Although I'm not an expert in this field, I don't think the Pentagon will keep track of PAF all 96 Falcons 24/7, it might become too costly if possible at all.



As i said earlier, this is dangerous! We cannot have a foreign army intelligence center keeping track on our aircrafts. I don't the Pakistani army commanders would've agreed to this, so they've probably installed something else. Time will tell.


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## Munir

They are coslty and it is as usual a good weather friendship. But there are not much alternatives and we can blaim USA for everything but do look how well Pakistani politicians performed in the past. Corrupty and pathetic. I am not favouring non democracy but if the democratic lunatics can not perform and look only for personal improvement then we can stop blaiming others.

There are new developments in the world after 911. Anyone anywhere can be attacked and probably the danger will increase. I agree with the fact that these terroristic actions are the result of unfair world policies but blwoing up others will not make the world better place but result in more chaos. Since there is Irac,, Afghanistan, North Korea and Iran... Add to that Syria and we have a very dangerous place. Pakistan is now best armed ilsamic nations and one cannot ignore it. It can make bridges to the rest of the world and with enlightened whatever they can do a lot more then those stupid arabs that only are their thabks to oil exports.

USA can ignore Pakistan. Why not. It is a superpower and it has the right to do so. But Pakistan can move towards other resources like China and that is the last thing USA would like to see.


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## melb4aust

Neo said:


> Ofcourse we have the option to look into other markets, surly $5.1 billion will open quite a few doors but its in our interests to invest in the USA and to deepen our long term relationship.
> 
> In the post 9/11 era, its in every muslim countries interest not to alienate the USA, we can gain more from this and imho we should without compromising our integrity.
> 
> Both parties have learnt from mistakes from the past as stated by Condoleesa Rice during her visit to Pakistan and US can not afford to alienate Pakistan, she need us asmuch as we need her.
> Thats a first in our 58 year old history!


 
What relationship, this relationship is wholy based on as long as US has its personal interests involved, once they've finished goodbye Pakistan. What happened to that US after afghan war? Now tell me is it fair to offer India all the latest tech F-16's and F-18's while on the other hand putting bugs on **** F-16's, still thinking whether to approve the deal or not, trying to give us as much of a 3rd class tech.

And do you believe in Condelisa Rice? Because if you do, then you have no idea whats going on.


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

I have written many a times that U S didnot do anything different to Pakistan that it didnot do to its own. Pakistan screwed up on the original F 16 deal by paying up front and then not taking any legal actions once the delivery was frozen. 

After the cold war was over, all the agencies in america, britain, germany, france saw a big cut back in expenses and manpower----nobody in the cabinets wanted to believe that although the cold war was over, there would be other wars that may come up. So, all the great spies and senior and junior analysts who were talking about the unknown enemy were weeded out one by one-----till these presidents and prime ministers of these western nations had yes men in place who were telling them all is fine. There is no more threat. They weakened the defences of their own countries momentarily----but indeed they had enough residual power left to take on any nation in the world without facing the russia like threat in case of combat or full fledged war.


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## Owais

No F-16s to Pakistan without security vow: Rice 
*WASHINGTON *_(updated on: July 27, 2006, 04:09 PST_): Pakistan must provide written security assurances as part of a deal for $5.1 billion in American-made F-16 fighter jets and no equipment will be transferred until anti-diversion protections are in place, US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice has promised Congress on Wednesday.

Aiming to ease lawmakers' concerns over the weapons package offered to a key American ally in the war on terror, Rice said in a letter obtained by Reuters on Wednesday that before the first aircraft is delivered, Pakistan will sign a document that details Islamabad's security commitments.

In addition, "no aircraft or munitions will be delivered until US officials have determined that all security measures are in place" and Congress has been briefed on those procedures, she said.

Rice was responding to a letter from Republican Richard Lugar of Indiana, chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations, and Senator Joseph Biden of Delaware, the panel's senior Democrat, who had asked her for written assurances addressing concerns raised by him and other lawmakers.

"There should be no ambiguity regarding Pakistan's obligations in the security realm," the senators told Rice.

"There should also be no ambiguity regarding Pakistan's capability to meet and enforce its security obligations," they added.

On June 28, the Bush administration formally notified Congress of plans to sell Pakistan up to 36 F-16C/D Block 50/52 Falcon fighters built by Lockheed Martin Corp. in a deal worth $5 billion if all options are exercised.

Some lawmakers have expressed concerns about Pakistan's past nuclear proliferation record, citing fears technology used in the Lockheed Martin Corp F-16s could be leaked to China, Pakistan's close military ally, and by extension help Chinese arms customers like Iran and Iran's clients in the Middle East, including Hizbullah, which is now fighting Israel.

*DIFFICULT TO BLOCK *

Under US law, Congress could block the sale by enacting a resolution of disapproval in both houses within 30 days of the notification date, but such action is rare and it is difficult win the two-thirds majority vote needed to overcome a presidential veto.

Congressional sources said there is no credible effort to do that now and the sale is expected to go through.

A spokesman for Lugar, asked if Rice's assurances satisfied the senator, said: "He believes it is an important response that is helpful in answering questions raised by members of Congress."

But other congressional aides said they were still wary of the security plan, which was still being negotiated and should have been completed before the sale was formally proposed to Congress.

In their letter, Lugar and Biden also expressed concern about administration plans to install upgrades to Pakistan's existing older F-16s at a location in Pakistan because this might allow China -- also a major supplier of new fighter aircraft to the Pakistani air force -- to gain information about the high-performance US fighter.

But Rice insisted the updates will not be done in Pakistan. A Senate source told Reuters the work likely will be done by NATO ally Turkey, one of six non-US sites approved for this sensitive work.

"This sale is a presidential priority and is a key element of our strategic partnership and reflects our long-term commitment to Pakistan," Rice said.

The administration advanced the F-16 sale as the US Congress was taking action to approve a landmark civil nuclear co-operation agreement with India, Pakistan's nuclear rival. Islamabad has asked for a similar deal but the administration rejected it


----------



## Arrow

*But Rice insisted the updates will not be done in Pakistan. A Senate source told Reuters the work likely will be done by NATO ally Turkey, one of six non-US sites approved for this sensitive work.*
.....

*
s and no equipment will be transferred until anti-diversion protections are in place, US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice has promised Congress on Wednesday.*


----------



## Owais

Arrow said:


> *But Rice insisted the updates will not be done in Pakistan. A Senate source told Reuters the work likely will be done by NATO ally Turkey, one of six non-US sites approved for this sensitive work.*
> .....
> 
> 
> *s and no equipment will be transferred until anti-diversion protections are in place, US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice has promised Congress on Wednesday.*


 
Thats Not good:embarassed: . Keeping an spy eye on pakistan's Inventory is unacceptable.


----------



## Averroes

get it over with, sign the ****, promise them whatever they want. it's in pakistans interest to keep the weapons to themselves as we need to protect our country against any aggression. chinese are going along fine with their own research.


----------



## Owais

AverrÃÂ¶es said:


> get it over with, sign the ****, promise them whatever they want. it's in pakistans interest to keep the weapons to themselves as we need to protect our country against any aggression. chinese are going along fine with their own research.


But Chinese reseach will take long time(aprox 4 to 8 years) to develope avionics of western standards. and we want this technology Immediately.


----------



## Neo

*Time is short to block Pakistan F-16 deal *
*
*By Roxana Tiron

Amid congressional grumbling over yet another Bush administration snub, the sale of Lockheed MartinÃ¢â¬â¢s F-16 fighter jets to Pakistan is expected to go through tomorrow because Congress is technically running out of time to stop it.

Instead of trying to block the deal by passing legislation, House International Relations Committee Chairman Henry Hyde (R-Ill.) and his Democratic counterpart, Rep. Tom Lantos (Calif.), are working behind the scenes with the administration to assuage their concerns about the security risks of the deal, as well as the administrationÃ¢â¬â¢s notification process to Congress.

The Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress on June 28 of a possible foreign military sale to Pakistan of 36 F-16s, a deal worth up to $5 billion. Lawmakers have a 30-day review period, during which they can move to block the sale.

But in what some congressional leaders are regarding as faux pas, the administration decided to waive another 20-day pre-notification period for conferring with lawmakers about the arms sale without asking Congress for permission, sources said.

Those 20 days are not legally binding like the 30-day review period, but they have been customary. Hyde was quick to accuse the administration of flouting CongressÃ¢â¬â¢s role in the process. Lantos, his Democratic counterpart, called the White House move insolent.

It is not the substance of the sale that lawmakers oppose but the process. They also expressed concerns that F-16 technology could fall into the wrong hands, as Pakistan housed the infamous A.Q. Khan nuclear-proliferation network.

To avoid being circumvented in the future, the lawmakers introduced a bill July 20 that would require quarterly updates on possible arms sales and would enforce a 20-day consultation period before a proposed sale could go forward. But that bill wonÃ¢â¬â¢t be voted on before the House goes into its August recess.

Ã¢â¬ÅThe chairman has been in negotiations with the administration on the way forward for arms-sales notification and consultation with Congress,Ã¢â¬Â said Hyde spokeswoman Kristi Garlock. Ã¢â¬ÅHe does not think at this point it is necessaryÃ¢â¬Â to vote on the bill.

Ã¢â¬ÅThe State Department has backed down and is in the process of resolving what needed to be taken care of,Ã¢â¬Â a congressional aide said. Ã¢â¬ÅThe resolution wonÃ¢â¬â¢t be taken up this week. It could come up later in the session.Ã¢â¬Â

The administration is putting together a program to deal with the technology-security concerns raised by Lantos, the aide said.

The arms sale is going to take a few years, which means the administration has some time to spruce up its security plans, the aide added.

Ã¢â¬ÅThey have come up with a plan that now deals with [security],Ã¢â¬Â the aide said. Lockheed is expected to deliver 18 aircraft at first with a follow-on option for another 18.

Ã¢â¬ÅThe F-16 sale furthers the national-security interests of both Pakistan and the United States,Ã¢â¬Â said Mark Tavlarides, a lobbyist with Van Scoyoc Associates who represents the government of Pakistan.

It is extremely difficult for Congress to block an arms sale. It would require passage of a resolution to disapprove in both the House and the Senate before the 30-day review runs out. But the president can veto the resolution, and Congress could only override his veto if two-thirds of each chamber voted to do so.

Ã¢â¬ÅAs a practical matter, it is virtually impossible for Congress to stop an arms sale,Ã¢â¬Â confirmed a source closely following the sale to Pakistan.

Rep. Gary Ackerman (D-N.Y.), a strong supporter of India, PakistanÃ¢â¬â¢s neighbor, introduced a resolution of disapproval, but it has not been taken up on the House floor. Yesterday, Ackerman was still circulating a Ã¢â¬ÅDear ColleagueÃ¢â¬Â letter to gain support for his resolution.

The Senate has no such resolution and there are no plans to introduce one, according to a Foreign Relations Committee spokesperson. The Senate has postponed its closed hearings on the F-16 sale.

The sale of the fighter jets to Pakistan nearly coincides with the House vote on a U.S. civil nuclear agreement with India. The House was expected to pass a bill supporting the administrationÃ¢â¬â¢s agreement last night.

The approximately $5 billion F-16 sale, just like the nuclear-technology agreement with India, is a presidential priority and is part of the administrationÃ¢â¬â¢s South Asia strategy, aimed at broadening its relationships with Pakistan, India and Afghanistan.

http://www.hillnews.com/thehill/export/TheHill/News/TheExecutive/072706_pakistan.html


----------



## Neo

US lawmaker seeks to block sale of fighter jets to Pakistan 

WASHINGTON (AFP) - A leading Democrat in the US Congress introduced legislation to block the George W. Bush administration's proposed sale of up to 36 combat aircraft to Pakistan. 
http://us.a2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a...06_1_300x250_lrec_morph_answerer_2b_share.jpg
Representative Ed Markey, who co-chairs a bipartisan congressional task force on non-proliferation, said his bill would prevent the sale of the three dozen F-16 fighter jets from going forward, unless the president certifies to Congress that Pakistan has terminated construction of its plutonium production reactor.
Earlier this week, press reports revealed that Pakistan has been building a plutonium production reactor capable of producing enough weapons-grade nuclear material for up to 50 atomic bombs per year.

"We should pressure India and Pakistan to stop producing plutonium and enrich uranium for nuclear bombs, not give them the tools to make and deliver those weapons with greater ease," Markey said, also linking the deal to his disapproval over a US-India civilian nuclear energy deal which cleared the House of Representatives Wednesday.

"These F-16 aircraft are capable of delivering nuclear weapons, and if this arms sale goes through, we will only be putting additional fuel on the fire of an Indian-Pakistan nuclear arms race."

Markey continued: "We should not proceed with this arms sale unless the US can prove that Pakistan is not moving forward with a nuclear reactor that, once completed, could be used to increase Pakistan's annual nuclear weapons production capability from an estimated seven bombs a year up to an estimated 50 bombs a year."

The administration last week defended its sale of fighter jets to Pakistan.
Assistant Secretary of State for Political-Military Affairs John Hillen told lawmakers that the fighter jets sale to Pakistan would help bolster a key US ally in the global fight against terrorism.

But key lawmakers have accused the White House of making an end-run around Congress and "flouting" the US legislature's oversight role of the sale.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060727/pl_afp/uspakistanmilitary_060727192224


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## TexasJohn

Hey guys, any truth to this? seems like a de-fang the F-16 scenario. Maybe I should look up the hearings:

http://www.indianexpress.com/story/9462.html


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## sigatoka

Neo said:


> Markey continued: "We should not proceed with this arms sale unless the US can prove that Pakistan is not moving forward with a nuclear reactor that, once completed, could be used to increase Pakistan's annual nuclear weapons production capability from an estimated seven bombs a year up to an estimated 50 bombs a year."


 
Even if Pak. builds the plutonium facility, will it have enough plutonium to actually build 50 a year. Some how I think the figure is exaggerated. How can you go from producing 7 right up to 50.


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## RAPTOR

Neo said:


> US lawmaker seeks to block sale of fighter jets to Pakistan
> 
> WASHINGTON (AFP) - A leading Democrat in the US Congress introduced legislation to block the George W. Bush administration's proposed sale of up to 36 combat aircraft to Pakistan.
> 
> Representative Ed Markey, who co-chairs a bipartisan congressional task force on non-proliferation, said his bill would prevent the sale of the three dozen F-16 fighter jets from going forward, unless the president certifies to Congress that Pakistan has terminated construction of its plutonium production reactor.
> Earlier this week, press reports revealed that Pakistan has been building a plutonium production reactor capable of producing enough weapons-grade nuclear material for up to 50 atomic bombs per year.
> 
> "We should pressure India and Pakistan to stop producing plutonium and enrich uranium for nuclear bombs, not give them the tools to make and deliver those weapons with greater ease," Markey said, also linking the deal to his disapproval over a US-India civilian nuclear energy deal which cleared the House of Representatives Wednesday.
> 
> "These F-16 aircraft are capable of delivering nuclear weapons, and if this arms sale goes through, we will only be putting additional fuel on the fire of an Indian-Pakistan nuclear arms race."
> 
> Markey continued: "We should not proceed with this arms sale unless the US can prove that Pakistan is not moving forward with a nuclear reactor that, once completed, could be used to increase Pakistan's annual nuclear weapons production capability from an estimated seven bombs a year up to an estimated 50 bombs a year."
> 
> The administration last week defended its sale of fighter jets to Pakistan.
> Assistant Secretary of State for Political-Military Affairs John Hillen told lawmakers that the fighter jets sale to Pakistan would help bolster a key US ally in the global fight against terrorism.
> 
> But key lawmakers have accused the White House of making an end-run around Congress and "flouting" the US legislature's oversight role of the sale.
> 
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060727/pl_afp/uspakistanmilitary_060727192224[/quote]
> 
> 
> You can thank the indians for this. Is anyone still delusional about wanting to befriend this race of beings?


----------



## Neo

Is it me or do you guys see the double standards here aswell?

The socalled civil nuke deal with India will allow her to spare plutonium from the 8 military reactors which are not under the Iaea safeguard which will result in exeleration of building nuke warheads.
Yet they are concerned about us?? :read:


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## Munir

It is the usual bashing that was done by India but now they pay Americans to do the same. Well. It just shows inferiority complex cause they cannot handle it. Crying cause they cannot ever defeat Pakistan. Crying that they cannot defeat China. Crying cause all their products are not that good. Like they say.. Barking dogs do not bite. And India is barking 24/7.

On the other Hand Pakistan should improve its image. The military rule is not a good pr. Neither are the fanatics that are either ruining the economy or busy to make Pakistan look worser.


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## MrConcerned

With all the short termism thinking of posters here, can you blame America for being cautious? These are top of the line stuff, or there would be no need for such security measures.

Or you can wait 10 years for other local planes to reach that level of technology. Maybe.


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## Sid

These attempts to block the deal are useless and just plainly flawed in their approach. The reason they give for these attempts is that the F-16s that Pakistan would be getting would be able to deliver nuclear bombs and so we should not add fuel to the arms race. I ask them WHAT ARMS RACE?

Is India sitting ducks with its Su-30s? Do they NOT know that the F-16s that Pakistan currently have, have already been modified and made nuclear capable by Pakistan?


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## Averroes

Posted on Sat, Jul. 29, 2006

Plan to sell F-16 jets to Pakistan cleared
By JUDY MATHEWSON and EDMOND LOCOCO
BLOOMBERG NEWS

A Bush administration plan to sell as many as 36 Lockheed Martin Corp. F-16 jets and other equipment to Pakistan, the largest U.S. arms sale to the South Asian country, has emerged unscathed from a congressional review period.

Friday was the deadline for the Republican-controlled Congress to block the $5 billion sale. Without a two-thirds vote in both the House and Senate to kill the sale, it is automatically approved under the laws governing international arms sales.

"This sale is really a done deal now," said Christine Fair, an expert in South Asian political and military affairs at the U.S. Institute of Peace, a nonpartisan group founded by Congress.

The U.S. is trying to reward Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf for his support in the war on terrorism in the face of domestic opposition. The U.S. is also trying to help Pakistan step up the fight against al Qaeda and allied fighters along its border with Afghanistan.

Lockheed has delivered more than 4,300 F-16s, built at its west Fort Worth plant, and gets about $3 billion in annual sales from the fighter. International F-16 deliveries are scheduled through 2009, when the line would be shut down unless there are additional orders.

The Pakistan deal includes 36 advanced pilot helmets that display target information on the visor and up to 500 Boeing kits for ground-attack, satellite-guided bombs.

http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/business/15152904.htm


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## Neo

Pakistan on Saturday welcomed the Congress approval to the sale of Lockheed Martin's F-16 fighter jets to the country because the Congress was technically run out of time to stop it. 

Foreign Office spokesperson Tasnim Aslam hoped that the delivery of the planes will start as soon as possible. 

The Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress on June 28 of a possible foreign military sale to Pakistan of 36 F-16s, a deal worth up to five billion dollars. 

Lawmakers had a 30-day review period, during which they can move to block the sale. 

Opponents of the deal could not succeed to block it and the deadline expired on Friday. 

It was earlier thought that it would be extremely difficult for Congress to block the arms sale. 

It would require passage of a resolution to disapprove in both the House and the Senate before the 30-day review runs out. 

This was a positive development. 
It has removed all hurdles in the way of the deal, the Pakistani spokesperson said. 

She would not say when the delivery of the planes will start but hoped that the supply will begin as a formal agreement is struck. 
The F-16 plane is part of the arms sale, which is going to take a few years. 

Lockheed is expected to deliver 18 aircraft at first with a follow-on option for another 18, according to reports. 

The F-16 sale furthers the national security interests of both Pakistan and the United States, said Mark Tavlarides, a lobbyist with Van Scoyoc Associates who represents the Government of Pakistan. 

The approximately five-billion-dollar F-16 sale is a presidential priority and is part of the administration's South Asia strategy, aimed at broadening its relationships with Pakistan, India and Afghanistan, US officials believe.


----------



## Owais

*Formal F16 sale agreement with US soon* 

WASHINGTON (July 31 2006): Now that the US administration's proposal for sale of F16s to Pakistan stands approved, both the countries are to enter into a formal agreement shortly to be followed by start of delivery of the falcons, sources said. Lockheed Martin is the company to provide the aircraft, and the update package.

The US Defence Security Cooperation Agency notified to Congress on June 28 of its intent for sale to Pakistan of 36 new F-16s, and 26 refurbished jets, ammunition and update package worth up to $5 billion.

Besides the aircraft, whose exact number will be known once both the countries sign a formal agreement, expected shortly, the delivery of the jets would follow and completed in a few years. The proposal is also for ammunition, logistic support and updates.

"It would be up to Pakistan how many falcons it wants to purchase," sources state.


----------



## Best of the Best

According to me this F-16 deal is nothing but non-sence given the fact that the restrictions being placed on the F-16block50/52 are not acceptable by me, the F-16's are going to be for defencive roles i.e souly based for A2A roles....these F-16's will be stripped down of there offensive punch if so whats the use of the F-16's when they cant even fly 50km near the border thats even more then the PAF and IAF no fly zone restriction but what i am saying is from the news and the congressional hearing i heard if these F-16's cant go into the indian territory then why the heck is uncle Sam giving us JDAM and powerful weapons like bunker busters who the hell are we suppose to use these againt if not the indians???:idiot: 

To my suprise the most weird part about this deal is that UAE got the well known block 60's with the tag of 80 million each which include everything from spares,weapons and logistics then why the hell is one single USAF standard F-16block50/52 costing 83 million to the PAF this is the question even the so called PAF personal are asking if u ask me this is a complete rip off given the fact that india is being offered state of the art F-16's and F-18's and when i say state of the art i am refering to the electronics and ofcource the AESA raders like APG-79 and APG-80 to me 5.1 billion dollers is a rip off for so called 34current+262nd hand peace gate F-16's upgraded(MLU) aircraft and 18F-16's and plz its not 36 F-16's we are recieving its only 18 F-16C/D's block50/52's...


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## Best of the Best

MOO said:


> That's what I said but no one will bother to listen to me!




Well majority of the people are not agreing but at the end of the day if these F-16's are being taken up for defensive roles only i.e A2A then PAF should push for APG-80 as well as aim-9X these F-16s are only being taken for the decade we lost due to santion's i guess PAF best bet for air offensive would be the JF-17 and J-10 and as far as J-10 is concurned its quite promissing according to the news i have been hearing PAF J-10 are bieng tailered made and would come up with some excellent A2G offensive punch:thumbsup: mind it that J-10's main purpose is air superiourity...


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## Neo

I agree on the F-16 part but the deal only included 18 new block 52 jets, some 30+ F-16A/B's and mlu package for 60+ jets.
I'm pretty satisfied with the supplementry order of other systems including helmets. AMRAAM 120C etc.

That will boost our defence capabilities!
PAF still is considered to be a defensive force, lets continue to rebuild and modernise it since the enemy has taken a leap forward with her new purchases and poses a serious threat.

Offensive capabilities can very well be achieved from JF-20 and we'll get it with full ToT.


----------



## Best of the Best

Neo said:


> I agree on the F-16 part but the deal only included 18 new block 52 jets, some 30+ F-16A/B's and mlu package for 60+ jets.
> I'm pretty satisfied with the supplementry order of other systems including helmets. AMRAAM 120C etc.
> 
> That will boost our defence capabilities!
> PAF still is considered to be a defensive force, lets continue to rebuild and modernise it since the enemy has taken a leap forward with her new purchases and poses a serious threat.
> 
> Offensive capabilities can very well be achieved from JF-20 and we'll get it with full ToT.


 
Even i am satisfied with the deal give or take who wouldnt love Aim-120C5's JHMCS and Aim-9M8/9 but if these F-16's are only based for A2A defensive roll's then i sure as hell would want an AESA rader and Aim-9x with it.....and yes the cost on these birds are senceless..


----------



## Neo

Atleast we have a credible ac to encounter the MKI, I rather see the glass half empty.  

Btw. would you please enable your PM function?
Thanks!

Neo


----------



## Best of the Best

Neo said:


> Atleast we have a credible ac to encounter the MKI, I rather see the glass half empty.
> 
> Btw. would you please enable your PM function?
> Thanks!
> 
> Neo


 

F-16 is certainly a counter to MKI but it isnt exactly a perfect answer to it i havent been on the site for 4 to 6 months now and a lot has changed will do that in the mean while u can add me on MSN if u like my id is saribjamil_pk@hotmail.com.


----------



## Neo

Best of the Best said:


> F-16 is certainly a counter to MKI but it isnt exactly a perfect answer to it


Glass half empty... 



> i havent been on the site for 4 to 6 months now and a lot has changed will do that in the mean while u can add me on MSN if u like my id is saribjamil_pk@hotmail.com.


Welcome back dude!
A lot has changed indeed but all for the good!
This place rocks!


----------



## Best of the Best

:what1:


Neo said:


> Glass half empty...
> 
> 
> Welcome back dude!
> A lot has changed indeed but all for the good!
> This place rocks!


 

I have opened up my PM for u secondly i like my glass to be full rather then half empty.

Yes the place has improved a lot and i for once can say we now do have mature posters here GAWDD help me hope viper in style isnt here even tho he has also improved with time.

Well i rather have something surpassing MKI rather then matching it or being equal to it i certainly hope J-10 would be a true answer to MKI but as of right now the IAF MRCA deal would come as a headache to PAF in 6 to 8 years time so PAF has a lot of challanges ahead of it not just MKI.


----------



## Neo

Best of the Best said:


> I have opened up my PM for u secondly i like my glass to be full rather then half empty.


Send you a pm tomorrow, its midnight here already. 



> Yes the place has improved a lot and i for once can say we now do have mature posters here GAWDD help me hope viper in style isnt here even tho he has also improved with time.


Haven't seen him for a while...quite a few members didn't return after this site was relaunced.
I'll agree we've many matured and knowledgeable members here but there's always room for more.  



> Well i rather have something surpassing MKI rather then matching it or being equal to it i certainly hope J-10 would be a true answer to MKI but as of right now the IAF MRCA deal would come as a headache to PAF in 6 to 8 years time
> so PAF a lot of challanges ahead of it not just MKI.


The answer would be Typhoon or Rafale but neither is an optiopn untill 2015.
Just wait for the j-10...there are a few surprises there...


----------



## Best of the Best

Neo said:


> Send you a pm tomorrow, its midnight here already.
> 
> 
> Haven't seen him for a while...quite a few members didn't return after this site was relaunced.
> I'll agree we've many matured and knowledgeable members here but there's always room for more.
> 
> 
> The answer would be Typhoon or Rafale but neither is an optiopn untill 2015.
> Just wait for the j-10...there are a few surprises there...


 

Glad to know viper isnt here lol..

Hahahah Ask Ahsan Faroogi i was the one who came up with the name Pakistanforces lol.

We could certainly go for some suped up Rafales for 5 billion trust me atleast 36 with all goodies and sensors and yes nothing is impossiable  and J-10 certainly has a hell lot of suprices i even know some just like i was the very 1st one to know about thunders redesign chance and thunder hiting mach 1.8 way before this happened MASHALLAH sai i am proud to have inside sources.


----------



## Owais

*US will certainly provide F-16 planes to Pakistan: Crocker* 

ISLAMABAD: US Ambassador to Pakistan, Ryan C Crocker said Tuesday that the US will certainly provide F-16 fighter planes to Pakistan, however, the time frame for the delivery of the planes could not be given at the movement.

He stated this here while talking to Geo News. Ã¢â¬ÅPresident Bush will honour his word to provide the F-16 planes to Pakistan,Ã¢â¬Â Crocker remarked.

Earlier, Pakistan and United States inked two agreements to promote knowledge-based economic development and ensure long-term economic growth.

The first agreement is part of the US government's five-year economic growth assistance package to Pakistan worth more than $ 73 million while the second one is to allow the Competitiveness Support Fund (CSF) to partner with the Higher Education Commission (HEC) in support of initiatives that promote knowledge-based economic development. 

This bilateral agreement commits $ 13.7 million for 2006 on the part of USAID.


----------



## Shahin-e-Iqbal

I just read this news on pakistan times,

US-Pakistan soon to enter into formal F16s sale Agreement
'Pakistan Times' Monitoring Desk

WASHINGTON (US): Now that U.S. administration's proposal for sale of F16s to Pakistan stands approved, both the countries are to enter into a formal agreement shortly, to be followed by start of delivery of the falcons, sources said. 

Lockheed Martin is the company to provide the aircraft, and the update package.

The U.S. Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress on June 28 of its intent for sale to Pakistan of 36 new F-16s, and 26 refurbished jets, ammunition and update package worth up to $5 billion. 

Describing sale of F16s to Pakistan, as "very important" to U.S. relationship "and to Pakistan's defence needs," Assistant Secretary of State for South and Central Asia said that "we're moving ahead with the sale." 

Mr. Richard Boucher said this to newsmen Thursday last, mentioning that working closely with Congress, difficulties have been overcome and procedures met. He was referring to completion of one month period of notification to Congress on July 28, which cleared the way for sale of F16s aircraft to Pakistan.

Besides the aircraft, whose exact number will be known once both the countries sign a formal agreement, expected shortly, the delivery of the jets would follow and completed in a few years. The proposal is also for ammunition, logistic support and updates. 

"It would be upto Pakistan how many falcons it wants to purchase," sources state.

Pakistan had earlier delayed furnishing of purchase orders, earlier, due to the devastating October 8 earthquake, as it wanted to give due priority to task of relief and rehabilitation of the affectees.

Commenting on sale of F16s to Pakistan, Mark Tavlarides, a lobbyist for the country said: "it furthers the national security interests of both Pakistan and the United States," and that it was "a presidential priority- nd is part of the Bush administration's South Asia strategy, aimed at broadening its relationships with Pakistan, India and Afghanistan." 

During the one month notification period, less than ten congressmen, out of a House of 435, statedly expressed their reservations over the F16s deal. Technically, the U.S. administration proposal stands approved, at midnight of July 28-29.

On July 20, a testimony was held at the Capitol Hill, convened by the House International Relations Committee, in which both the Pengaton as well as the State Department lent full support to sale of F16s to Pakistan.

Appearing before the full committee hearing, Pentagon official, Dr. John F. Hillen said "The sale will send a very clear signal of our commitment to a long-term relationship with Pakistan- a Major Non-NATO Ally since June 2004..." The Assistant Secretary of State, Political Military Affairs, said "a confident and secure Pakistan will be a more reliable partner for the United States."

This sale, he added was "a Presidential priority" and "a key element of the Administration&#8217;s South Asia strategy," unveiled in March 2005, aimed at broadening strategic relationships with our key regional partners &#8211; India, Afghanistan, and Pakistan." 

"Pakistan&#8217;s outstanding support in the war on terror has not come without a cost to President Musharraf and the Pakistani people. Despite the cost, Pakistani counter-terrorism efforts have resulted in the death or capture of over 800 members of al-Qaeda, including many senior leaders."

In a written testimony, Assistant Secretary Boucher said U.S. Administration believes that it was in United States' "national interest" to proceed with the sale of F16s to Pakistan. Sale of F 16s, he added, provides "a clear and concrete signal" to all Pakistanis that Pakistan&#8217;s security "is important to the United States."

He said Pakistan was "a key country" and "a strategic partner in South Asia"-- a region of critical importance to the United States. The South Asian region, he added, was "one of our highest priorities in the War on Terror."

Mr. Boucher said: "A confident Pakistan that feels secure is more likely to pursue peace and cooperation with its neighbours," and added, United States was working with Pakistan "to establish the basis for a stable, broad-based relationship." 

He also referred to high-level dialogues on energy, education, economics, science and technology, in the wake of President Bush&#8217;s March 4 visit to Islamabad. He referred to longterm and strategic relationship between both the countries. 

While chairman Henry Hyde, expressed his reservations including those on "protocol and procedures" adopted by the U.S. administration in notifying the proposal, Rep. James A. Leach told the hearing that he was supportive "of the substantive case for providing this particular aircraft and related weapons systems to our close friends and allies in Pakistan." 

The Congressman said, it was in line with "our desire to forge a stable, long-term relationship with Pakistan," as well as, "Islamabad's extensive cooperation in the campaign on terrorism." He said he believed "Washington must be sensitive to Pakistan's assessment that its air force needs significant upgrading and modernization." 

Rep. Leach also said this proposed agreement would not materially impact the overall balance of power in South Asia."Indeed, given growing power disparities on the Subcontinent, it is possible that it may well have a stabilizing effect."&#9679;

http://www.pakistantimes.net/2006/08/02/top2.htm


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## Best of the Best

The news says it depends how many F-16 pakistan wants technically we are getting 26 peacegate F-16 and 18 new F-16's with a follow up order of 18 more if we want so what the hell is up with the statemnt as many F-16's as pakistan wants ...besides all these F-16's would be configured for A2A oprations's rather then A2G for which F-16 is indeed famous but i again would want PAF to push hard for APG-80 and Aim-9x in the F-16 deal coz these two things can make a world lot of difference when it comes to PAF using these birds for defencive rolls.....


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## MrConcerned

I think AIM-9X is on hold to see if sensitive tech leaks out. Pakistan is in the best of positions from both East and West if it can keep IP sensitivity and prevent leaks on both sides.


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## Owais

I don't think that US government will allow the sale of AIM-9X and AN/APG 80 AESA radar because of technology leakage nor we can affoard it. that radar is about $25million a piece.


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## Neo

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*No dates yet for F-16s delivery *[/FONT]

Wednesday, August 02,2006 

[SIZE=-1]ISLAMABAD: The Bush administration holds no plan of imposing new conditions for providing F-16 fighter planes to Pakistan but US cannot give any specified timeframe for their supply, US Ambassador Ryan C Crocker said on Tuesday. &#8220;I cannot specify any deadline when Pakistan will be able to get these planes,&#8221; the US Ambassador said while talking to a group of journalists in Islamabad on Tuesday.

Crocker said, &#8220;The people of the United States are excited to see a growing, vibrant Pakistani economy. By appealing to Pakistanis&#8217; entrepreneurial spirit, the US Economic Growth Programs in Pakistan will continue to help businesses grow and reduce poverty.&#8221;

The second signing, the Competitiveness Support Fund - led by the Ministry of Finance and supported by USAID&#8217;s Economic Growth Program - formed a breakthrough partnership with the Higher Education Commission.

&#8220;The main thrust of this initiative is to build linkages between business and academia,&#8221; said Omar Ayub Khan who is also Chairman of the Competitiveness Support Fund. &#8220;Such linkages will spark the kind of information sharing that makes business more dynamic and supports the commercialization of innovations developed at our universities and research institutions.&#8221;

&#8220;Our partnership with the Competitiveness Support Fund will bring a new dimension to the Higher Education Commission that should help our researchers attract better financing and shape their work to more directly meet the needs of society and the economy,&#8221; said Prof. Dr Atta-Ur-Rahman, Chairman of the Higher Education Commission. 

&#8220;Cooperation of this type between business and academia has generated tremendous innovation in the countries that have developed it, not just in the United States and Europe, but also in places like India, Thailand and Turkey. Pakistan cannot afford to ignore these successes.&#8221;

One of the Competitiveness Support Fund&#8217;s main objectives is to develop and support linkages between academia and industry for knowledge-based enterprise development. The fund will work with the Higher Education Commission to provide technical assistance by engaging foreign experts to support projects promoting knowledge-based enterprises in Pakistan. The two will also work jointly to establish a forum for the identification of research-based projects that will further the development of a knowledge-based economy. 
[/SIZE]
http://www.southasianmedia.net/index_story.cfm?id=314265&category=Frontend&Country=PAKISTAN


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## Munir

I like the USA approach of reducing poverty and improving economy. They will give us the weapons but learn us to focus on the real problem. I think we should see the power of strong economy and not the power of only a powerful military. The latest will destroy any economical power. The first will increase military knowledge and power.


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## Best of the Best

Thr truth is only those who have great economies can afford great or best military's best example would be of the USA and china it self.

As far as the F-16's go new and old i believe we will have all the F-16' in 3 to 5 time years max from what i have heard PAF will get all the 26 peace gate F-16 
by next year that too will be upgarded as far as the new F-16's go they will take atleast 2 t0 4 years time to get delieved.


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## Neo

I believe that the F-16 plant has backlog to continue building till 2009, this includes the Pakistani order of 18 F-16C/D as quoted by Washington post last week.

This means that we'll complete the order within three years, mlu should not take more than two years.


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## Munir

I see Turkey and Greece ordering a few squadrons so Pakistan might end up getting it later...

Turkey close to buying 30 new block 52+ F-16s 
US defense magazine, "Defense News," has published an article asserting that Turkey is planning on buying 30 new advanced block 52+ F-16s for its air force.


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## Best of the Best

Munir said:


> I see Turkey and Greece ordering a few squadrons so Pakistan might end up getting it later...
> 
> Turkey close to buying 30 new block 52+ F-16s
> US defense magazine, "Defense News," has published an article asserting that Turkey is planning on buying 30 new advanced block 52+ F-16s for its air force.


 
Well i dont agree with that actually technically Pakistan approached for the F-16's 1st and i believe if Pakistan signs the contract before turkey we will be the first ones recieving the F-16':thumbsup: hopefully Inshallah.


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## melb4aust

Best of the Best said:


> Well i dont agree with that actually technically Pakistan approached for the F-16's 1st and i believe if Pakistan signs the contract before turkey we will be the first ones recieving the F-16':thumbsup: hopefully Inshallah.


 
Thats what you can say, but truth is different its really up to US authorities to who they wanna provide F-16's first. Turkey is a part of F-16 project as they manufacture airframes, so anything is possible.


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## RAPTOR

Tuesday, August 08, 2006 
*US Congress clears F-16 deal* 

ISLAMABAD: The US Congress has cleared the sale of F-16 aircraft to Pakistan and the deal does not contain any extraordinary security conditions, the Foreign Office said on Monday. Asked to comment on reports that the United States was insisting on extraordinary security precautions, FO spokeswoman Tasnim Aslam said the agreement contained a standard clause to ensure that there was no transfer of technology to a third country. Pakistan signed similar agreements with other countries while selling or purchasing any equipment, she said. An exchange of a letter of offer from the United States and letter of acceptance from Pakistan would take place to finalise the deal, she said. Alsam dismissed press reports that the United States had conveyed to Pakistan that the equipment supplied for the war against terrorism should not be diverted for other uses. staff report


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## Spring Onion

RAPTOR said:


> Tuesday, August 08, 2006
> *US Congress clears F-16 deal*
> 
> ISLAMABAD: The US Congress has cleared the sale of F-16 aircraft to Pakistan and the deal does not contain any extraordinary security conditions, the Foreign Office said on Monday. Asked to comment on reports that the United States was insisting on extraordinary security precautions, FO spokeswoman Tasnim Aslam said the agreement contained a standard clause to ensure that there was no transfer of technology to a third country. Pakistan signed similar agreements with other countries while selling or purchasing any equipment, she said. An exchange of a letter of offer from the United States and letter of acceptance from Pakistan would take place to finalise the deal, she said. Alsam dismissed press reports that the United States had conveyed to Pakistan that the equipment supplied for the war against terrorism should not be diverted for other uses. staff report


 


 Pakistan Zindabad :flag:


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## Owais

> *Armed forces fully capable of defending the country: Air Chief*
> LAHORE: Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Chief, Tanvir Mahmood Ahmad has said that the armed forces of Pakistan have all the capacity to defend the country and PakistanÃ¢â¬â¢s prime minister would not have to wail helplessly in any gathering like that of the Lebanese PM.
> 
> Following a meeting with the Punjab Governor, Lt. Gen. ÃÂ® Khalid Maqbool here in the Governor House, he told this to newsmen.
> 
> PAF chief told that he was grieved of the attacks on Lebanon. He said that the weakness turns out into inability, but Ã¢â¬ËAl HamdolillahÃ¢â¬â¢ Pakistan was not weak.
> 
> *Quizzed on acquiring F-16 from the US, Air Chief Tanvir Mahmood Ahmad told that the US Congress has given the final approval to the delivery of 44 F-16 to Pakistan. He said that these included 18 new and 26 those previous aircrafts made for Pakistan in 1990 and were being delivered now equipped with high-tech long- range weapons almost free of cost.
> *
> He told that we were also upgrading our existing 34 old F-16 and after acquiring the fresh lot from the US soon, PakistanÃ¢â¬â¢s fleet of F-16 would make a total of 78.
> 
> He said that the PAF in next seven years would get so much stronger that none could even conceive of committing aggression against Pakistan.


Only 18 new jets???


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## Neo

Yes, 18 firm orders but 18 remain in option.


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## Owais

Neo said:


> Yes, 18 firm orders but 18 remain in option.


 
18 are nothing as compared to IAF 126 MRCAs.
PAF will have 78 block 52 F16s (new + MLU) and IAF will get 140 MKI and 126 MRCA. again hi-tech ratio will be 1:4. back to square 1


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## Neo

Try to be less India-centric to see the real progress being made, numbers don't add up to quality.

Block 52 F-16 is one of the three types we'll induct, JF-17 and JF-20 are in the pipeline aswell, the latter will be better than the F-16.


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## Owais

Neo said:


> Try to be less India-centric to see the real progress being made, numbers don't add up to quality.
> 
> Block 52 F-16 is one of the three types we'll induct, JF-17 and JF-20 are in the pipeline aswell, the latter will be better than the F-16.


 
JF20?? you mean F-10??
only 36 have chance!


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## Neo

Owais said:


> JF20?? you mean F-10??


After the evaluation and modifications required by PAF the J-10 has been designated as JF-20.


> only 36 have chance!


I'm not sure if the additional order for 18 will be materialised. All depends on JF-20, how soon it can be delivered.
It won't be available before 2010.


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## MrConcerned

>>the latter will be better than the F-16.

extremely doubtful.


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## Neo

MrConcerned said:


> >>the latter will be better than the F-16.
> 
> extremely doubtful.


 
Its expected to be better than the block 52 with a mixture of Chinese and European systems.
We'll have to wait a few years till the export version is ready.


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## Owais

Neo said:


> Its expected to be better than the block 52 with a mixture of Chinese and European systems.
> We'll have to wait a few years till the export version is ready.


 
The J-10 is reported to be fitted with an indigenous KLJ-3 pulse-Doppler fire-control radar having maximum detecting range of 100~130km (attacking range 80~90km), and is capable of engaging two targets simultaneously. the same or modified radar will be used in thunder.
can we get an AESA radar for F-20 from europe? did any country offered us?


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## Neo

*No security plan linked to F-16 deal, says FO*

ISLAMABAD, Aug 7: The Foreign Office on Monday dispelled the impression that the sale of F-16 jets to Pakistan recently cleared by the US Congress was linked to the government&#8217;s compliance to an &#8216;extraordinary&#8217; security plan.

&#8220;We have not been conveyed any requirement for extraordinary security arrangements. We are not aware of that,&#8221; Foreign Office spokesperson Tasnim Aslam told a weekly news briefing when asked about preconditions set for the delivery of the F-16 aircraft.

However, when her attention was drawn to some intrusive security measures suggested by a US official, she said: &#8220;We have not started the negotiations on the details but I don&#8217;t think any government would allow that.&#8221;

The spokesperson declined to comment on the exchanges between the US administration and the Congress on the F-16 issue, saying: &#8220;That is not our business. Our business is the procurement of the F-16 aircraft.&#8221;

She said that following the Congress approval, the next step would be a letter of offer and a letter of acceptance. &#8220;We have not reached that stage,&#8221; she added.

She emphasised that defence sales agreements everywhere contained a standard clause which ensured there was no transfer of technology to a third country. &#8220;Of course when we sign agreements with other countries, whether we are selling or purchasing, we have this clause,&#8221; she said.

When the spokesperson&#8217;s attention was drawn to reports that the US government had complained to the Interior Ministry about Pakistan misusing military equipment given to it for counter-terrorism operations, she said: &#8220;No, we are not aware of any such objection by the US authority.&#8221; On whether there was any US pressure on Pakistan on building of the nuclear reactor, Ms Aslam said: &#8220;No. There is absolutely no pressure.&#8221;

*MUSHARRAF VISIT: *The FO spokesperson termed incorrect a report about President Gen Musharraf&#8217;s visit to the United States this month. &#8220;This is wrong. President is not visiting US in August,&#8221; she said.

*TROOPS: *Ms Aslam said that at the moment there was no proposal of sending Pakistani troops to Lebanon.&#8212;Q.A.

However, she said there were two key elements in Pakistan&#8217;s criteria for participating in the peacekeeping operations. One was a UN-sanctioned mandate and the other was acceptance of that mandate by the parties concerned. &#8220;In this case we would like to see a UN Security Council-sanctioned peacekeeping mission and acceptance by Lebanon, she said and added: &#8220;If these conditions are met then we would be ready to consider our participation.&#8221;

She was evasive when her comments were sought on US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice&#8217;s statement about redrawing the Middle East map. She said she had not seen the statement and instead talked about the US Greater Middle East Initiative that involved a number of countries, including Pakistan.

Answering a question, Ms Aslam said consultations on the US-France UN draft resolution on the Israel-Lebanon conflict were continuing. &#8220;We understand the Lebanese have expressed certain reservations, so did Qatar and now the effort would be to make it more balanced,&#8221; she said.

Regretting that considerable time had lapsed since the Israeli onslaught against Lebanon, she hoped the international community would step in urgently to stop the carnage of the Lebanese people and put an end to the Israeli aggression.

When asked to comment on the Muslim Ummah&#8217;s unity the spokesperson left it at: &#8220;Ummah, well if it&#8217;s Ummah!&#8221;


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## araz

> When asked to comment on the Muslim Ummah&#8217;s unity the spokesperson left it at: &#8220;Ummah, well if it&#8217;s Ummah!&#8221;


 
Brothers As Salam o alaikum,
She has once again hit it right on the head. The fact of the matter is that we as Muslim Ummat have been an abject failure. Poverty, Social and racial inequality, misuse of our resources, putting the interest of the individual above the Ummah,lack of education, keeping regional and National values above Islam and greed and excess of every nature that one can think of, every thing that the Prophet (PBUH) and the Quran asked us not to do , we have done it.Is it any surprise that we are in this mess. I dont blame Israel for the Arab excesses, I blame the Arabs for their own misfortune. Israel is merely taking advantage iof the situation that we have place on a silver platter and handed over to them. Look even today, after 1000 innocent men, women and children have died in Lebanon, not a single Arab leader has openly condemned these attacks. We are weak, lack education and knowledge, dont have the will for "Jehad"( the strugle to achieve these aims) and have forgotten the Lessons of Quran and the Prophet(PBUH).Why then do we blame Israel or the USA?
WaSalam
Araz


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## MrConcerned

you are much too harsh on yourself, Araz. There is no genetic differences between Arab Palestinians and native Jews, so whatever the Jews can achieve, so can the Arabs. Just cut out the violent extremism in certain groups and in the media and you're on your way.


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## sigatoka

araz said:


> When asked to comment on the Muslim UmmahÃ¢â¬â¢s unity the spokesperson left it at: Ã¢â¬ÅUmmah, well if itÃ¢â¬â¢s Ummah!Ã¢â¬Â


 
Brothers As Salam o alaikum,
Look even today, after 1000 innocent men, women and children have died in Lebanon, not a single Arab leader has openly condemned these attacks. We are weak, lack education and knowledge, dont have the will for "Jehad"( the strugle to achieve these aims) and have forgotten the Lessons of Quran and the Prophet(PBUH).Why then do we blame Israel or the USA?
WaSalam
Araz[/quote]

Fighting is not undertaken for victory alone, to fight for justice is noble in of itself. 

Words are cheap, Saudi leaders have not openly condemned but they have pledged over a billion in help. Syria will resupply Hezbollah and probably have special forces within Lebanon battling the Israelis.

In all their little ways, they are trying to help. Openly condemning Israel is not possible (when it means condemning the U.S.)


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## master_fx

but india will never dare to wage a war with pakistan over these years since china-pakistan relationship are getting warmer every day..... china will help pakistan like we did in NK, except indian forces are much weaker than the UN forces during the korean war..... lol


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## Best of the Best

Owais said:


> 18 are nothing as compared to IAF 126 MRCAs.
> PAF will have 78 block 52 F16s (new + MLU) and IAF will get 140 MKI and 126 MRCA. again hi-tech ratio will be 1:4. back to square 1


 

From a guy who has 2000+ posts thats a very childish statment too be honest:disappointed: .

india will get all its MKI fleet to 10 by 2015 or onwards that gives PAF a lot of times for a fact all the F-16's will be delieved new and all the F-16's old would be upgraded by 2010 thats for sure....

Keep in mind that JF-17 production rate has set to be 25 to 30 thunders a year when the production is at full swing that too would be achieved by 2010 by PAC karma i assure u that PAF will have all its F-16's,JF-17's and J-10's before 2015 thats for sure so what makes u worry so much while u discuss the MRCA deal which even hasnt been sign india still would take a year or 2 atleast before it sign's a deal then comes a lot of stuff in between that like making an infrasture for the jets ETC which would be new to IAF while PAF is working on the machines it is buying and is in the process of setting things up so relax..

Now there is this big rumor buzzing every where that besides the F-16,JF-17 and J-10, PAF is highly interested in procuring another Europian jet ranging from some where between 30 to 45 making 2 squadrens atleast so al hopes are high....:thumbsup:


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## Tiki Tam Tam

Masterfx,

I am afraid you underestimate Chinese diplomacy.

They will only extend "moral support" as they have done in all conflicts. They have never intervened in any of the Indo Pak conflicts except to advise all to settle issues "peacefully". 

Ever since the Islamic rising in Xingjian, even the rhetoric on Kashmir has become muted!

It is China's aim to be a "responsible" and "matured"superpower. It has to maintain this image, at least in Asia, lest the peripheral states get cold feet and hug the US Bald Eagle - a situation that would put her plans in dire straits.

China cannot afford to have a ring around her with hostile countries and some of which, for their own safety, give access to US global outposts.

Therefore, one should perish that thought.


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## MrConcerned

Salim, exactly correct.

China is neutered. It developed 30 years too late and allowed US a foot in the door, and India is coming up at the same time. Asia is not the American continent. If it tries to behave even remotely selfishly, it will be barricaded and opposed.

Tough luck.


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## Bull

master_fx said:


> but india will never dare to wage a war with pakistan over these years since china-pakistan relationship are getting warmer every day..... china will help pakistan like we did in NK, except indian forces are much weaker than the UN forces during the korean war..... lol


 
Where was this warmth during kargil war?


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## MrConcerned

extremely doubtful the J-10 will be better than F-16, sorry. APG-68v9 is not to be sniffed at. 

the day J-10 shows outward signs of improvement I would begin to believe some of the hype. That may be anywhere from 5 to 10 years. China I believe is trying to skip PESA and go right to AESA.


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## Bull

Best of the Best said:


> From a guy who has 2000+ posts thats a very childish statment too be honest:disappointed: .


 
Leave out personal remarks



Best of the Best said:


> india will get all its MKI fleet to 10 by 2015 or onwards that gives PAF a lot of times for a fact all the F-16's will be delieved new and all the F-16's old would be upgraded by 2010 thats for sure....


 
The F-16s 56+32 in inventory will not be enough to match the current IAF of 2006.The gap still remains.



Best of the Best said:


> Keep in mind that JF-17 production rate has set to be 25 to 30 thunders a year when the production is at full swing that too would be achieved by 2010 by PAC karma i assure u that PAF will have all its F-16's,JF-17's and J-10's before 2015 thats for sure so what makes u worry so much while u discuss the MRCA deal which even hasnt been sign india still would take a year or 2 atleast before it sign's a deal then comes a lot of stuff in between that like making an infrasture for the jets ETC which would be new to IAF while PAF is working on the machines it is buying and is in the process of setting things up so relax..


 
You cannot give assurances here,as things arent in your hand.If u say something then show us on what you are basing such an argument.
JF17s will be produced at the rate of 25-30 a years but from which yr onwards?If they start in 2007 mid by 2013 they will have 150-200 JF 17s.And by then IAF would also have 140 MKIs.

Are you speaking abt infra...IAF has one of the most diverse fleets in the world.Probable they are the only ones who are operating british,french and russian planes in the same fleet.I dont think it will get more complicated.Moreover if they choose Mg29OVT,then this argument goes out of the window.



Best of the Best said:


> Now there is this big rumor buzzing every where that besides the F-16,JF-17 and J-10, PAF is highly interested in procuring another Europian jet ranging from some where between 30 to 45 making 2 squadrens atleast so al hopes are high....:thumbsup:


 
More???
Now doesnt the "infrastruture and getting used to argument" apply to PAF ?


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## RAPTOR

*PAF Chief: We won&#8217;t wail like Lebanon*[FONT=Verdana,Arial][SIZE=-2]8/8/2006 10:27:23 PM[/SIZE][/FONT]_- By Our Correspondent_

*Islamabad, Aug. 8*: Pakistan Air Force Chief Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed on Tuesday said that the country&#8217;s armed forces were strong and always ready to defend the homeland, saying weakness turns into inability.
"Pakistan has all the capacity to defend the country and Pakistan&#8217;s Prime Minister will not have to wail helplessly in any gathering like the Lebanese PM," he told reporters in Lahore following a meeting with Punjab governor Lt. Gen. Khalid Maqbool (Retd).
The PAF Chief said that he was grieved about the attacks on Lebanon. "Weakness turns out into inability, but Pakistan is not weak," he said. 
Questioned on acquiring F-16s from the US, the air chief said that the US Congress has given final approval to the delivery of 44 F-16s to Pakistan. 
He said that the jets include 18 new and 26 aircraft made for Pakistan in 1990. "The jets are being delivered now, equipped with high-tech long-range weapons almost free of cost." Air Chief Marshal Ahmed said: "We were also upgrading our existing 34 old F-16s."


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## Bull

I think nobody was comparing lebonon to Pakistan..any sane guy wont....So why is the PAF chief suddenly coming out with such comments.Is he due for a pay hike???


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## Sid

He's not coming up with such talk on his own. He said all that in reply to questions that came up during a press brief after he had discussions with the Punjab governor. He assuerd that PAF would be a force to reckon with within the next seven years.


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## Owais

Best of the Best said:


> india will get all its MKI fleet to 10 by 2015 or onwards that gives PAF a lot of times for a fact all the F-16's will be delieved new and all the F-16's old would be upgraded by 2010 thats for sure....


who told you that MKI will be delivered by 2015 or onwards?? according to my inormation, all of them will be delivered before 2013. also, thunder will be delivered on the ratio of 1:1 between PLAAF and PAF. means we wll get 15-20 planes anually. so think your self how much time it will take.


Best of Best said:


> Keep in mind that JF-17 production rate has set to be 25 to 30 thunders a year when the production is at full swing that too would be achieved by 2010 by PAC karma


what kind of jet? you are the first and the only one to tell me . I am still unable to find any related news. 


best of best said:


> Now there is this big rumor buzzing every where that besides the F-16,JF-17 and J-10, PAF is highly interested in procuring another Europian jet ranging from some where between 30 to 45 making 2 squadrens atleast so al hopes are high....:thumbsup:


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## Bull

*Fighter jets will make Pakistan's debt soar*

http://archive.gulfnews.com/opinion/columns/world/10058585.html
08/08/2006 09:48 PM | By Husain Haqqani, Special to Gulf News

The Bush administration has justified its decision to sell 36 F-16 Falcon fighter jets to Pakistan on grounds that it would increase American "access and influence" in Islamabad. 
Pakistan's military regime, which will incur a debt of $5 billion to purchase the planes made by Lockheed Martin, considers the deal a boost for Pakistan's security. Close examination of the deal and of the history of similar US-Pakistan deals indicates that the stated goals of neither the US nor the Pakistani rulers are likely to be advanced with the F-16 purchase. 
If anything, the F-16s are a pay off from Washington for General Pervez Musharraf's military regime a sort of "toys for the boys" gift that is expected to extend the regime's survival. That is all that concessional arms transfers under previous pro-US Pakistani military regimes have achieved.
Let us first look at the F-16 deal from the perspective of Pakistani national security. Not long ago, Musharraf declared that the greatest threat to Pakistani security comes from extremist ideologues and terrorists within the country. Domestic extremism in Pakistan would be fought more effectively with investment in the neglected social sectors. A sum of $ 5 billion could go a long way in expanding education, healthcare and poverty alleviation programmes. 
If the purpose is to locate and liquidate hardened terrorists, the F-16 Falcon is not the best weapon to identify, isolate or even kill individual terrorists. Most major Al Qaida figures arrested in Pakistan and handed over to the US were arrested in major Pakistani cities. 
The F-16's sophisticated air-to-air, air-to-surface and anti-ship missiles have little to contribute in the battle in the neighbourhoods of Westridge, Rawalpindi (where Khalid Shaikh Mohammad was found) or Defence Society, Karachi (where Ramzi Bin Al Shibh was caught). They have limited value in Waziristan or other tribal areas on the Afghan border.
Pakistan's traditional security threat is believed to come from India but here too Pakistan will not get a bang for its buck. The Pentagon's statement accompanying notification of the F-16 sale to the US Congress has stated unequivocally that Pakistan's F-16 purchase would "not significantly reduce India's quantitative or qualitative military advantage" and that it would neither affect the regional balance of power nor introduce a new technology in the region.
John Hillen, the US Assistant Secretary of State for Political-Military Affairs, told a recent Congressional hearing that the version of the plane being sold to Pakistan "will not be nuclear capable" and explained that the Pentagon's notification to Congress had "enumerated the technologies that were not, that would usually go with an F-16, that are not part of this deal". According to Hillen, these withheld technologies "include ones that would allow the F-16 to be used in offensive ways to penetrate airspace of another country that was highly defended".
If the F-16 will not enhance Pakistan's military capability against domestic terrorism or confer it some qualitative or quantitative advantage in its unfortunate perennial conflict with India, why add to Pakistan's debt burden for such expensive jets? Hillen's explanation, repeated in private and public conversations by other American officials, focuses on US influence over Pakistan. 
*Secure leverage*
The military is the most powerful institution in Pakistan and military sales, backed by large American credits, are a means of pleasing the Pakistani military. This, in turn, is supposed to secure leverage for the United States. 
The US has dreamt of leverage over Pakistan's foreign policy in return for military equipment and economic aid ever since the days of the Cold War alliances, SEATO and CENTO. Contrary to the assumption of American officials that military aid translates into leverage, Pakistan's military has always managed to take military aid without ever fully giving the US what it desires. 
If Pakistan's security policy was determined by a representative government and not by a Praetorian army, the ability to make independent foreign policy decisions would be a good thing from Pakistan's point of view even if that is not what the Americans seek. 
But given the ascendancy of the military in Pakistan's decision-making, the military aid relationship with Washington has become a contributing factor to Pakistan's internal dysfunction. 
The availability of weapons systems that enhance the Pakistani military's prestige and therefore its ability to continue to dominate national life offered by the US to secure limited Pakistani cooperation in US grand strategy allows Pakistan's military rulers to believe that they can continue to promote risky domestic, regional and pan-Islamic policies. It undermines the Pakistani military's willingness to negotiate realistically with India without bolstering Pakistan's actual military prowess against its much larger neighbour.
The people of Pakistan, and the long-term US-Pakistan relationship, would benefit far more if Washington made it clear that its support for Pakistan's security would be contingent upon Pakistan having an elected government that determines Pakistan's real security needs in a transparent manner. 

_Husain Haqqani is Director of Boston University's Centre for International Relations and Co-Chair of the Hudson Institute's Project on Islam and Democracy. He is the author of the Carnegie Endowment book "Pakistan Between Mosque and Military"._


----------



## Best of the Best

Bull said:


> Leave out personal remarks


 
I would prefer u to do the same charity beings at home.




> The F-16s 56+32 in inventory will not be enough to match the current IAF of 2006.The gap still remains.


 
Really what makes u so sure about that besides that what makes u sure we wont precure anymore F-16's i dont remember u being the PAF's airforce chief like i said what makes u sure we wont buy anything beyond 36 F-16's????




> You cannot give assurances here,as things arent in your hand.If u say something then show us on what you are basing such an argument.
> JF17s will be produced at the rate of 25-30 a years but from which yr onwards?If they start in 2007 mid by 2013 they will have 150-200 JF 17s.And by then IAF would also have 140 MKIs.


 
It has been stated at different places that thunders production would be at full swing by 2009 has also been stated by PAF air chief u can google around and search if u want too...





> Are you speaking abt infra...IAF has one of the most diverse fleets in the world.Probable they are the only ones who are operating british,french and russian planes in the same fleet.I dont think it will get more complicated.Moreover if they choose Mg29OVT,then this argument goes out of the window.


 
Diversified fleet ya right give me a break IAF ground crews go to hell coz of so many types not to mention the fact the IAF can only have half of its fleet in the air at war time this shows u how diversified IAF's fleet really is..... i rest my case.





> More???
> Now doesnt the "infrastruture and getting used to argument" apply to PAF ?


 
No it doesnt unlike IAF, PAF doesnt buy anything it cant swallow.


----------



## Best of the Best

Owais said:


> who told you that MKI will be delivered by 2015 or onwards?? according to my inormation, all of them will be delivered before 2013. also, thunder will be delivered on the ratio of 1:1 between PLAAF and PAF. means we wll get 15-20 planes anually. so think your self how much time it will take.


 
i have read at several places that IAF will complete its MKI fleet of 190 by 2015 that too from indian sources so i take there word for it as this has been stated by the IAF chief him self several times......the argument about u saying thunder will be delieved between PAF and PLAAF is until PAC karma doesnt have the production facility as soon as PAC karma becomes ready PAF wont need to share the production with PLAAF since China can open more production lines and fullfill there requirment of FC-1 keep in mind that JF-17 would be very different from the standard FC-1 of the PLAAF especailly the models that would be made after the 1st 50 which later would to be upgraded...




> what kind of jet? you are the first and the only one to tell me . I am still unable to find any related news.


 
Well its hinted to be europian there was a article on net not more then 3 months a go stating that if the Navy bought Marlin class sub's then PAF too would be interested in buying 36 Rafales(how i have no idea)...besides that there are many more rumor's on this subject but this wont happen any where before 2010


----------



## RAPTOR

Best of the Best said:


> Well its hinted to be europian there was a article on net not more then 3 months a go stating that if the Navy bought Marlin class sub's then PAF too would be interested in buying 36 Rafales(how i have no idea)...besides that there are many more rumor's on this subject but this wont happen any where before 2010


 
Thats only if Saudi Arabia also buys the Marlin and the Rafales from France. Talks are ongoing so who knows. Recently Saudi was going to finance Morrocco's purchase of 18 Rafales from Dassault...dont know what became of that. 
If PN buys the U-214 Subs from Germany, then i think the EuroFighter is a possibility....although its going to come with more political strings attached.


----------



## Best of the Best

RAPTOR said:


> Thats only if Saudi Arabia also buys the Marlin and the Rafales from France. Talks are ongoing so who knows. Recently Saudi was going to finance Morrocco's purchase of 18 Rafales from Dassault...dont know what became of that.
> If PN buys the U-214 Subs from Germany, then i think the EuroFighter is a possibility....although its going to come with more political strings attached.


 

Last i read the Dassault didnt want to sell the Rafale to Morrocco they simply said nooo and yes i agree with ur statment there, good to see somebody over here speaks my language...:thumbsup:


----------



## Bull

Best of the Best said:


> I would prefer u to do the same charity beings at home..


 
What ever....:whatever: 



Best of the Best said:


> Really what makes u so sure about that besides that what makes u sure we wont precure anymore F-16's i dont remember u being the PAF's airforce chief like i said what makes u sure we wont buy anything beyond 36 F-16's????.


 

Because they arent offering you anything more..even if they do on a later stage the negotiations and procurement/assembly is going to make it beyond the 2013-2015 window that we are discussing abt.



Best of the Best said:


> It has been stated at different places that thunders production would be at full swing by 2009 has also been stated by PAF air chief u can google around and search if u want too....


 
As pointed out in the previous post its going to be 1-1 for PLAAF and PAF so u end up getting half of it.Now see 10-15 planes a year from year 2009(?) onwards how much you will have by 2013?



Best of the Best said:


> Diversified fleet ya right give me a break IAF ground crews go to hell coz of so many types not to mention the fact the IAF can only have half of its fleet in the air at war time this shows u how diversified IAF's fleet really is..... i rest my case.


 
Which war time?



Best of the Best said:


> No it doesnt unlike IAF, PAF doesnt buy anything it cant swallow.


 
You havent bought anything for quite past.so i will give this to you, you havnt bought anything bcoz you couldnt swallow anything.


----------



## Bull

Best of the Best said:


> i have read at several places that IAF will complete its MKI fleet of 190 by 2015 that too from indian sources so i take there word for it as this has been stated by the IAF chief him self several times


 
Its delivery period has been cut short,check your sources once more.


----------



## Averroes

> Its delivery period has been cut short,check your sources once more.



Who the hell cares about when they will be delivered. Doesn't really play much of a role if its early or late, they already have them and will have a huge amount of them.


----------



## TexasJohn

I read this in the Daily Times today. It's an article by Kamran Safi. Is there any truth to this? I am asking any Air Force types to answer this, please

&#8220;What worries him specifically (other than the US being able to stop the supply of spares whenever) is that these F-16s will not have EW (electronic warfare) programming capabilities for its RWR (radar warning receiver). Our F-16s have a pre-installed threat library that is able to identify only non-NATO aircraft using its RWR. It has been observed that our F-16s could not detect being locked onto by a Mirage 2000 (since that&#8217;s a NATO aircraft) while the Chinese built F-6 could. This was because of the above-mentioned limitation in the EW capability of the F-16 supplied (i.e. it cannot be reprogrammed). What this would mean is that an enemy airplane fitted with BVR (beyond visual range) missiles, can lock on to our F-16s and fire a missile without the F-16 being able to take evasive measures. This would make even the most sophisticated aircraft (with all the manoeuvrability in the world) a sitting duck. 

&#8220;His concern is that in the current technological revolution, the age-old concept of dogfights and pilot&#8217;s skill is no longer an integral part of having mastery of the skies. Unfortunately, most of our PAF high ups are usually GD pilots and have a &#8220;jingoistic&#8221; vein where they think their skill and superior manoeuvrability is all they need to teach the enemy a lesson. They don&#8217;t seem to appreciate that the paradigm has shifted in air warfare. 

&#8220;Having no capability to re-program the EW systems in these most advanced fighters is like giving someone a super-duper Pentium Core Duo system with a 29-inch LCD screen and the best sound system in the world; and then to only allow the user to browse the Web on it. Using this same analogy, wouldn&#8217;t it be preferable to have a Pentium 3 with the capability of writing your own code and interfacing your own peripheral devices? 

&#8220;The bottom line is that we want to ask the government this question: &#8216;Is the PAF being provided the capability to reprogram the EW threat library?&#8217; A simple yes or no is all we need because then we can hold them accountable to a folly that may cost us, not only the billions spent on the deal (and the millions received in kickbacks?), but also the fate of our nation in the near future.


----------



## Munir

This article is posted in most forums like pdf and pakdef. I don't see any reason to repeat the same. Like usual there are people with political agenda. Tell me what option Pakistan has and whether they are that stupid that they bought another bad item? F16 is a potent weapon system. Pakistan will get those with lots of technology and weapons. Whining about a bad deal is pathetic. Just flying mig21 (P/Pg) or outdated Mirages is even more stupid and tell me how many planes can cope with block52? MKI? I doubt that. And more? I rest my case.


----------



## TexasJohn

Munir said:


> This article is posted in most forums like pdf and pakdef. I don't see any reason to repeat the same. Like usual there are people with political agenda. Tell me what option Pakistan has and whether they are that stupid that they bought another bad item? F16 is a potent weapon system. Pakistan will get those with lots of technology and weapons. Whining about a bad deal is pathetic. Just flying mig21 (P/Pg) or outdated Mirages is even more stupid and tell me how many planes can cope with block52? MKI? I doubt that. And more? I rest my case.



Hence the question. The story of " kill switches" on various American hardware is very widely circulated and talked about. In your opinion, does Kamran Safi's article hold any truth to it? especially the part about EW?

Block52 vs MKI??? that would be an interesting thread in itself don't you think? The 16s did not do too good in Cope India exercises, btw.


----------



## Best of the Best

Bull said:


> What ever....:whatever:


 
Happy that u replied like a sane person altho rude but still humian.. 




> Because they arent offering you anything more..even if they do on a later stage the negotiations and procurement/assembly is going to make it beyond the 2013-2015 window that we are discussing abt.


 
Then Again when our ACM says we will our recieve new F-16's with in 3 years i will take his words rather then your's.



> As pointed out in the previous post its going to be 1-1 for PLAAF and PAF so u end up getting half of it.Now see 10-15 planes a year from year 2009(?) onwards how much you will have by 2013?


 




> Which war time?


 
Sorry but i wasnt speaking french that u dont understand the word Wartime..



> You havent bought anything for quite past.so i will give this to you, you havnt bought anything bcoz you couldnt swallow anything.


 
You see there is saying its better to stay quite then to talk silly, now what do you excatly mean we couldnt swallow our F-16's got sanctioned in the 90's, USA wasnt willing to sell us F-16's until now.....what do u call 200 JF-17's,
36 J-10 and 36 F-16's.....unlike you we didnt have mother Russia to sell us MKI's in the 90's......we can swallow a hell lt more then u can.


----------



## Best of the Best

TexasJohn said:


> I read this in the Daily Times today. It's an article by Kamran Safi. Is there any truth to this? I am asking any Air Force types to answer this, please
> 
> Ã¢â¬ÅWhat worries him specifically (other than the US being able to stop the supply of spares whenever) is that these F-16s will not have EW (electronic warfare) programming capabilities for its RWR (radar warning receiver). Our F-16s have a pre-installed threat library that is able to identify only non-NATO aircraft using its RWR. It has been observed that our F-16s could not detect being locked onto by a Mirage 2000 (since thatÃ¢â¬â¢s a NATO aircraft) while the Chinese built F-6 could. This was because of the above-mentioned limitation in the EW capability of the F-16 supplied (i.e. it cannot be reprogrammed). What this would mean is that an enemy airplane fitted with BVR (beyond visual range) missiles, can lock on to our F-16s and fire a missile without the F-16 being able to take evasive measures. This would make even the most sophisticated aircraft (with all the manoeuvrability in the world) a sitting duck.
> 
> Ã¢â¬ÅHis concern is that in the current technological revolution, the age-old concept of dogfights and pilotÃ¢â¬â¢s skill is no longer an integral part of having mastery of the skies. Unfortunately, most of our PAF high ups are usually GD pilots and have a Ã¢â¬ÅjingoisticÃ¢â¬Â vein where they think their skill and superior manoeuvrability is all they need to teach the enemy a lesson. They donÃ¢â¬â¢t seem to appreciate that the paradigm has shifted in air warfare.
> 
> Ã¢â¬ÅHaving no capability to re-program the EW systems in these most advanced fighters is like giving someone a super-duper Pentium Core Duo system with a 29-inch LCD screen and the best sound system in the world; and then to only allow the user to browse the Web on it. Using this same analogy, wouldnÃ¢â¬â¢t it be preferable to have a Pentium 3 with the capability of writing your own code and interfacing your own peripheral devices?
> 
> Ã¢â¬ÅThe bottom line is that we want to ask the government this question: Ã¢â¬ËIs the PAF being provided the capability to reprogram the EW threat library?Ã¢â¬â¢ A simple yes or no is all we need because then we can hold them accountable to a folly that may cost us, not only the billions spent on the deal (and the millions received in kickbacks?), but also the fate of our nation in the near future.


 

For a person whose known about jets fore more then 8 years now that article is Bull Shi*t if u see all F-16's are being upgraded with friend and foe systems and the new ones will come with them, now RWR are present on PAF F-7P's how the bloody hell wont they be on the F-16's there is something known as common sence, people just dont use it anymore any aircarft without RWR is dead meat so whatever that is mentioned in this article is crap as statements such as these have already been rejected by the PAF...:wall:


----------



## Best of the Best

TexasJohn said:


> Hence the question. The story of " kill switches" on various American hardware is very widely circulated and talked about. In your opinion, does Kamran Safi's article hold any truth to it? especially the part about EW


 

No i do not believe in kill switches if that was the case nobody would buy american hardware as far as EW suits go yes there were reports and all even some congress men were told about PAF not having this but that has been rejected by the PAF i ask u what will PAF use bunker busters and JSOW and JDAM's on if that was the case????




> Block52 vs MKI??? that would be an interesting thread in itself don't you think? The 16s did not do too good in Cope India exercises, btw.


 

Sorry to disappoint you but in Cope india excercises the MKI faced the F-16 twice in which they had 2 counters once the MKI made a kill the other time a F-16 made a kill on the MKI that proves my point. Besides that the pilots from cope india came on F-16.net and they said that they were impressed by the MKI but they said F-16 could hold its own against the MKI anyday anytime.


----------



## TexasJohn

Sorry to disappoint you but in Cope india excercises the MKI faced the F-16 twice in which they had 2 counters once the MKI made a kill the other time a F-16 made a kill on the MKI that proves my point. Besides that the pilots from cope india came on F-16.net and they said that they were impressed by the MKI but they said F-16 could hold its own against the MKI anyday anytime.[/QUOTE said:


> I was on F-16.net quite a bit and never once had a pilot say" F-16 could hold its own against the MKI anyday anytime". If I missed it, please send me the link.
> 
> As far as EW "friendly/foe" signatures go, that has always been a tough call. Think of what would happen in a case of Israeli F-16s / F-15s flying against Saudi F-15s? Each country's hardware does in fact have a unique signature! That is what the guy was trying to say. What if India also bought F-16s for their 126 MRCAs? A Block 70 with AESA has already been offered to them. What EW signature do you use then?


----------



## Best of the Best

TexasJohn said:


> I was on F-16.net quite a bit and never once had a pilot say" F-16 could hold its own against the MKI anyday anytime". If I missed it, please send me the link.


 

Sorry that u missed out on the F-16 conversation on cope india where F-16's pilot indeed did show up but there posts were delated due to the sensitive information data in their posts there is a Mod name Asif something over there u can Pm and ask him he would assure u of that... 



> As far as EW "friendly/foe" signatures go, that has always been a tough call. Think of what would happen in a case of Israeli F-16s / F-15s flying against Saudi F-15s? Each country's hardware does in fact have a unique signature! That is what the guy was trying to say. What if India also bought F-16s for their 126 MRCAs? A Block 70 with AESA has already been offered to them. What EW signature do you use then?


 
The answer to ur question is below courtesy of Syed Saad from PakDef;



> "_What worries him specifically (other than the US being able to stop the supply of spares whenever) is that these F-16s will not have EW (electronic warfare) programming capabilities for its RWR (radar warning receiver). Our F-16s have a pre-installed threat library that is able to identify only non-NATO aircraft using its RWR. It has been observed that our F-16s could not detect being locked onto by a Mirage 2000 (since thatÃ¢â¬â¢s a NATO aircraft) while the Chinese built F-6 could. This was because of the above-mentioned limitation in the EW capability of the F-16 supplied (i.e. it cannot be reprogrammed). What this would mean is that an enemy airplane fitted with BVR (beyond visual range) missiles, can lock on to our F-16s and fire a missile without the F-16 being able to take evasive measures. This would make even the most sophisticated aircraft (with all the manoeuvrability in the world) a sitting duck."_
> 
> Now sir, as a patriotic Pakistani, it is also my duty to tell you and hopefully the Pakistani public through you that this is as inaccurate an analysis as it gets. *PAF F-16s have and will have EW capabilities. The only difference is that the F-16s now being purchased do not have a component called Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM). The idea behind this is that while flying the F-16s over enemy territory, in case the F-16 is subjected to electronic jamming by the opposing airforce, the F-16 is able to record these jamming signals and replay them back to the enemy in order to confuse them to the point that they no longer consider the F-16 a threat (essentially the F-16 is cloaked by the enemy's own jamming signals). In the absence of DRFM, what tends to happen is that PAF would be flying its ELINT aircraft (Falcon DA-20s now and Erieye in the future) that are capable of recording the same jamming signals. Upon returning to the base, these signals are simply loaded up onto the EW pods (which essentially is called updating the threat library) of the F-16s (current ones in the service with the F-16s are ALQ-131) and then these F-16s can cater to the threat from additional types of enemy jamming. So not all is lost. The DRFM is considered to be a very new technology and the Americans are unwilling to part with it at this time. However it does not take anything away from the F-16s from defending Pakistani airspace.*
> 
> *RWR is a totally different thing and without a shadow of doubt I can tell you that a RWR is available on all Pakistani F-16s, Mirages and F-7s (we actually produce the RWRs at Kamra for the F-7s).*
> 
> *As you can see that the DRFM capability is a plus in strike missions over India where in real-time the F-16s can playback the jamming signals and confuse Indian airdefences, however in the current situation, PAF lacks a good defensive fighter. This is what the F-16 provides to the PAF in the form of the F-16 armed with AIM-120 BVR missile.* _*So yes Pakistan's precious resources are being spent on the F-16s, however how do you cater to the continuous build-up of arms on the other side of the border? Has the other side shown a lot of willingness to make peace with us? So far sitting here in the US, I only see GoP making peace overtures and in the end, getting no response from the Indians. So perhaps a bit of reality minus the idealism should find place in your letters.*_


----------



## TexasJohn

Best of the Best said:


> Sorry that u missed out on the F-16 conversation on cope india where F-16's pilot indeed did show up but there posts were delated due to the sensitive information data in their posts there is a Mod name Asif something over there u can Pm and ask him he would assure u of that...
> ;



How convenient.... 



Best of the Best said:


> The answer to ur question is below courtesy of Syed Saad from PakDef;



I don't see any posts.. what are you talking about?


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## Munir

Texasjohn, you are not located in Texas. Are you Indian IT person located in the east?


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## TexasJohn

Munir said:


> Texasjohn, you are not located in Texas. Are you Indian IT person located in the east?



wow! why would you say that? Arlington, TX is the ONLY town where I have lived since 1979. I am in the IT field. I work for the large Hospital complex here in Dallas as a network admin!


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## TexasJohn

Best of Best - very good post about DRFMs. Isn't re-loading the recording a pain though? I can see that changing.. mobile jammers, Phalcon AWACs etc.


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## Munir

Let us put it simple. Without those memory banks one needs other ECM recorderding planes and one needs to return to base to reprogram the ECM. It is less flexible. Yet with that many planes around (AWACS, ELINT) and probably alternatives (JF17/J10) it is not huge problem cause the opponent has not much superior options either. If PAF gets BVR communication, radar signatures of MKI then the war is not onesided at all.


----------



## Neo

F-16s sale to Pakistan till next month: Pentagon 
 
*WASHINGTON *_(updated on: August 11, 2006, 23:07 PST_): Pakistan appears close to signing a potential $5 billion deal for an advanced F-16 fighter-jet package, despite stepped-up security demands pushed by US lawmakers, the official responsible for the sale said on Friday.

Air Force Lt. Gen. Jeffrey Kohler, head of the Pentagon's Defence Security Co-operation Agency, said he expected a government-to-government pact locking in the purchase to be wrapped up as early as this month or the middle of next month.

The agreement would clear the way for the US Air Force to complete a so-called foreign military sales contract with Lockheed Martin Corp., which builds the F-16, as soon as November, he said in reply to queries from Reuters.

The sale would bolster President Pervez Musharraf in backing the US-declared global war on terror and expand US access, influence and leverage, US officials have said.

But Washington has demanded what it calls unprecedented steps to safeguard the advanced F-16C/D models, their spare parts and munitions from third parties -- especially China, which has closed military ties to Pakistan.

Despite these stiff precautions, Pakistan would get a fighter said by Washington to be stripped of a cutting-edge offensive capability, supposedly incapable of delivering nuclear weapons and subject to US government say on when it could be flown overseas.

On June 28, the Bush administration formally notified Congress of plans to sell Pakistan up to 36 Block 50/52 Falcon fighters, the most advanced F-16 flown by US forces. Related sales involved upgrades for Pakistan's older-model F-16s and munitions, including up to 500 AIM-120C AMRAAM air-to-air missiles, in a package with a combined value of up to $5 billion if all options are exercised.

The initial security plan for the F-16s was presented to Congress on July 20 by John Hillen, the assistant secretary of state for political-military affairs, who described it as "extraordinary" and "unprecedented."

In testimony to the House of Representatives' International Relations Committee, Hillen highlighted segregation of the aircraft from third country-origin aircraft and munitions, semi-annual F-16 inventories and more frequent looks at associated systems by US personnel.

Still, the House panel's top Republican and Democrat demanded even more US monitoring and oversight. Rep. Tom Lantos, the top Democrat, said he supported the sale, but was worried about technology security in a country "that produced the A.Q Khan nuclear network."

After a follow up July 20 closed-door session with Lantos and others, Bush administration officials beefed up the F-16 related security plan in ways not made public.

"We responded to reasonable requests from members of Congress," Kohler said by email through a spokesman. "And the changes should not be viewed as onerous by Pakistan."

The Pakistani embassy declined to comment.

Hillen, in his testimony, disclosed the United States was withholding unspecified technologies "that would usually go with an F16," including ones that would let it "be used in offensive ways to penetrate air space of another country that was highly defended."

In addition, F-16 flights outside of Pakistan, including exercises with others, "must be approved in advance by the US government," he said.


----------



## TexasJohn

Munir said:


> Let us put it simple. Without those memory banks one needs other ECM recorderding planes and one needs to return to base to reprogram the ECM. It is less flexible. Yet with that many planes around (AWACS, ELINT) and probably alternatives (JF17/J10) it is not huge problem cause the opponent has not much superior options either. If PAF gets BVR communication, radar signatures of MKI then the war is not onesided at all.



Good point. I would think that with a datalink, the need to return to base is eliminated. Since the IAF has already done so, it would make sense to do that with the PAF also, don't you think?

btw, still curious as to why you thought I don't live in Texas!!


----------



## Best of the Best

TexasJohn said:


> Best of Best - very good post about DRFMs. Isn't re-loading the recording a pain though? I can see that changing.. mobile jammers, Phalcon AWACs etc.


 

Thank you


----------



## Munir

TexasJohn said:


> btw, still curious as to why you thought I don't live in Texas!!



As far as I know your computer is located somewhere in NY. Nothing wrong with that. USA is a big and nice country so you can stay on any side.


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## Bull

Munir said:


> opponent has not much superior options either. If PAF gets BVR communication, radar signatures of MKI then the war is not onesided at all.


 
You are speaking abt something you dont have to fight with something your opponent already have!!!


----------



## Munir

Bully,

Here you are shouting a statement that has no value. You are pretending that India is a superpower and anything that Pakistan has is pathetic. 
Let me entertain you shortly. If you look at the broader picture you will see that both nations have nukes and multiple delivery items. Both nations have more then a few point defence fighters. Chance of anyone leaving unharmed is practicly zero. Now somehow we can forget that and see only PAF and IAF.

What makes IAF so good? Those old mig21 that are shortlegged? Those Jaguars that antique? Those mig23/27 that are rusting? Those gone mig25? Or those few mirage 2000-H? The oldest versions of mig29? The only thing one can brag about is the MKI and ecen that is not superlicious. It is a big plane and in the PAF-IAF arena one needs to see whether it will deliver results. Do mind that it is not BRF where you can arrogantly shout. Either show evidence or logic. What does India posses that should make Pakistan shaking? Those two decades left to produce imported MKI? Those imported Israeli AWACS?

India is waiting to produce a basic jet. India failed even in producing a basic tank and now copied Pakistan with Tank-Ex (much lighter then Arjun). There is not one single arena where we should see India as a superpower or superpower to be. India is not able to produce high tech weapons and sofar it has never exported anything like that. Its airforce lacks trainers and high tech planes. Oops I forgot, it even lacks pilots...

And I can conclude that it lacks intellegent supporters on the net... You remind me of Harry. Uknow. the notorious mod on Keymag that shouted that Brahmos could fly mach 3 just a few feet above ground... Sure. Even when corrected by specialists he kept his imagination. The most fun part is the paperplane story. We heard so often that Fc1 was a paperplane and LCA was JSF competitor. Well. I made a nice movie of these two...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2853639506896885406
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6759425224735284123

Let us think again when you talk about India being further...


----------



## TexasJohn

I like the song on the LCA clip!! That brings back some college day toga party memories!!!


----------



## EagleEyes

*Pakistan not to transfer F-16s technology to China*

Islamabad - Pakistan said Monday that it would purchase 44 multirole F-16 aircraft from the United States but dismissed fears about a transfer of F-16 technology to a third country. 

'We will not transfer technology of F-16s to anybody but, at the same time, hope that the US will also not violate the terms of agreement for delivery of the jets to Pakistan,' the chief of the Pakistan Air Force, Tanveer Mehmud Ahmad, said at a press briefing in Islamabad. 
He was commenting on media reports that recently quoted US congressmen as expressing concern that Pakistan might transfer F-16 technology to China. Their fears have led committees in the US House of Representatives and the Senate to plan hearings on the sale, which has been approved by President George W Bush's administration. 

Pakistan and China have close military ties and have jointly manufactured a JF-17 'Thunder' aircraft, which had its inaugural operational flight in May in the Chinese city of Chengdu. 

Ahmad said Pakistan always adhered to the terms of agreements on procurement of military equipment with all countries, including the United States, adding there will be no change in this policy while purchasing the F-16s. 

The fears by the US lawmakers followed admissions by AQ Khan, the father of Pakistan's nuclear-weapons programme, that he ran a nuclear-smuggling ring for years. 

Ahmad denied that the Pakistan Air Force had asked the United States for transfer of technology of the F-16s. 'We are only interested in achieving capability of a complete overhaul of F-16 engines at our aeronautical complex,' he said. 

Located about 80 kilometres north-west of Islamabad, the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex is also overhauling the whole range of fighter aircraft in the Air Force's inventory. 

Ahmad, who assumed command of the Air Force early this year, said Pakistan had asked the United States to deliver 18 F-16s of the latest C and D versions and 26 used jets. 

'The purchase of 18 brand-new F-16s will cost 2 billion dollars,' the air force chief said and expressed the hope that the jets might join the Air Force fleet after three years. 

However, he did not disclose how much it would cost to buy the 26 used F-16s but said he hoped they could be put to use by the Air Force within 15 to 18 months. 

He said Pakistan had also sought US help in upgrading its present fleet of 34 F-16s under a programme that will cost about 1 billion dollars. 
At the same time, Ahmad said Pakistan was also exploring other sources to procure combat aircraft. 'But the reason to go back to the old source - the US - is that Washington has repeatedly talked of establishing a strategic and long-term partnership with Pakistan,' he said.

http://news.monstersandcritics.com/...tan_not_to_transfer_F-16s_technology_to_China


----------



## Neo

TexasJohn said:


> I like the song on the LCA clip!! That brings back some college day toga party memories!!!


You played with barbies...?  
Just kiddin!


----------



## ajaybhutani

Munir said:


> Let us put it simple. Without those memory banks one needs other ECM recorderding planes and one needs to return to base to reprogram the ECM. It is less flexible. Yet with that many planes around (AWACS, ELINT) and probably alternatives (JF17/J10) it is not huge problem cause the opponent has not much superior options either. If PAF gets BVR communication, radar signatures of MKI then the war is not onesided at all.


and where will paf get radar signatures of MKI from ??


----------



## ajaybhutani

Munir said:


> Bully,
> 
> Here you are shouting a statement that has no value. You are pretending that India is a superpower and anything that Pakistan has is pathetic.


i dont think anyone here pretends that india is a superpower.. but you fail to realize the level of economic difference its more of a 1-6/7 .. that itself determines a lot of difference in capabilites.


> Let me entertain you shortly. If you look at the broader picture you will see that both nations have nukes and multiple delivery items. Both nations have more then a few point defence fighters. Chance of anyone leaving unharmed is practicly zero. Now somehow we can forget that and see only PAF and IAF.


the fact that you have to start your argument with "nukes".. itself show the level of insecurity you are living in.. it sounds like " see i have nukes .. you cant harm me any more " .. 



> What makes IAF so good? Those old mig21 that are shortlegged? Those Jaguars that antique? Those mig23/27 that are rusting? Those gone mig25? Or those few mirage 2000-H? The oldest versions of mig29? The only thing one can brag about is the MKI and ecen that is not superlicious.


it depends upon whom are we comparing IAF to if that PAF then surely IAF rocks.. its much stronger .. do you want to deny this please go ahead and give out some statistics. ??




> It is a big plane and in the PAF-IAF arena one needs to see whether it will deliver results. Do mind that it is not BRF where you can arrogantly shout. Either show evidence or logic. What does India posses that should make Pakistan shaking? Those two decades left to produce imported MKI? Those imported Israeli AWACS?


and all these decades pakstian doesnt have anything near the imported MKI..
if you want a PAF - IAF comparison you know the answer ..and even for indian aviation industry and paksitani aviation industry comparision .. you know the answer .. dont you??



> India is waiting to produce a basic jet.


india is developing a basic jet.. it has produced a good no of basic jets.. starting from mig21 to jags to now MKI's.. while pakstian is still waiting to produce a basic jet in the form of JF17.. 
while jf17 is a first production fighter jet for paksitan.. LCA is a first designed developed and made in india fighter plane..
what you are trying to do with JF17 is what we have already done with MKI.. and we all know whats a bigger achievement a MKI or a JF17.. ??


> India failed even in producing a basic tank and now copied Pakistan with Tank-Ex (much lighter then Arjun). There is not one single arena where we should see India as a superpower or superpower to be. India is not able to produce high tech weapons and sofar it has never exported anything like that. Its airforce lacks trainers and high tech planes. Oops I forgot, it even lacks pilots...


again india is 6-7 times economically stronger than paksitan.. its military is much bigger than paksitan.. its aerospace industry is much bigger and better than paksitan... .. 
about exported.. neither has paksitan exported anything like this.. 


> And I can conclude that it lacks intellegent supporters on the net...


so does pakistan.. there are a lot of ignorant people from both countries trying to prove stuff without knowing anything.. and in fact to some extent you and me are no better than partially acknowledged about stuff like these planes.. 
problem is on both sides.. dont try to play a blame game its gonna go nowhere.. 



> Let us think again when you talk about India being further...


further is again a relative term.. are you talking about further pakistan.. then when was it not the case??


----------



## TexasJohn

Neo said:


> You played with barbies...?
> Just kiddin!



Only I try not to mention those barbies in front of my wife. That's when I get a glare!!!


----------



## MOO

> what you are trying to do with JF17 is what we have already done with MKI.. and we all know whats a bigger achievement a MKI or a JF17.. ??



A better comparison between the JF-17 would be the LCA, but then again there is no LCA..Where is it? We'll be waiting for whenever they'll manage to fly them off the ground.

On the other hand the JF-17 is complete, and should soon be seeing mass production before 2010, while India is going to start to fly their program after 2010..


----------



## Owais

*Islamabad close to signing F-16 deal despite obstacles* 
Web posted at: 8/12/2006 2:9:4
Source ::: REUTERS 
WASHINGTON &#8226; Pakistan appears close to signing a potential $5bn deal for an advanced F-16 fighter-jet package, despite stepped-up security demands pushed by US lawmakers, the official responsible for the sale said yesterday. 
Air Force Lt Gen Jeffrey Kohler, head of the Pentagon&#8217;s Defence Security Cooperation Agency, said he expected a government-to-government pact locking in the purchase to be wrapped up as early as this month or the middle of next month. 
The agreement would clear the way for the US Air Force to complete a so-called foreign military sales contract with Lockheed Martin Corp, which builds the F-16, as soon as November, he said. 
Supplying updated F-16s to Pakistan is a key part of President Bush&#8217;s South Asia strategy, unveiled in March 2005 and aimed at boosting and balancing post-Sept. 11 security ties with India, Afghanistan and Pakistan. 
The sale would bolster President Pervez Musharraf in backing the US-declared global war on terror and expand US access, influence and leverage, US officials have said. 
But Washington has demanded what it calls unprecedented steps to safeguard the advanced F-16C/D models, their spare parts and munitions from third parties&#8212;especially China, which has closed military ties to Pakistan. 
Despite these stiff precautions, Pakistan would get a fighter said by Washington to be stripped of a cutting-edge offensive capability, supposedly incapable of delivering nuclear weapons and subject to U.S. government say on when it could be flown overseas. 
On June 28, the Bush administration formally notified Congress of plans to sell Pakistan up to 36 Block 50/52 Falcon fighters, the most advanced F-16 flown by U.S. forces. Related sales involved upgrades for Pakistan&#8217;s older-model F-16s and munitions, including up to 500 AIM-120C AMRAAM air-to-air missiles, in a package with a combined value of up to $5bn if all options are exercised. 
The initial security plan for the F-16s was presented to Congress on July 20 by John Hillen, the assistant secretary of state for political-military affairs, who described it as &#8220;extraordinary&#8221; and &#8220;unprecedented.&#8221; 
In testimony to the House of Representatives&#8217; International Relations Committee, Hillen highlighted segregation of the aircraft from third country-origin aircraft and munitions, semi-annual F-16 inventories and more frequent looks at associated systems by US personnel. 
Still, the House panel&#8217;s top Republican and Democrat demanded even more US monitoring and oversight. Rep. Tom Lantos, the top Democrat, said he supported the sale, but was worried about technology security in a country &#8220;that produced the A.Q Khan nuclear network.&#8221; 
Khan is a Pakistani scientist who confessed in 2004 to dodging international safeguards to smuggle banned nuclear wares to North Korea and Iran among others, purportedly acting on his own, with no state knowledge. 
After a followup July 20 closed-door session with Lantos and others, Bush adminstration officials beefed up the F-16 related security plan in ways not made public. 
&#8220;We responded to reasonable requests from members of Congress,&#8221; Kohler said by email through a spokesman. &#8220;And the changes should not be viewed as onerous by Pakistan.&#8221; The Pakistani embassy declined to comment. 
Hillen, in his testimony, disclosed the United States was withholding unspecified technologies &#8220;that would usually go with an F16,&#8221; including ones that would let it &#8220;be used in offensive ways to penetrate air space of another country that was highly defended.&#8221; In addition, F-16 flights outside of Pakistan, including exercises with others, &#8220;must be approved in advance by the US government,&#8221; he said.


----------



## genmirajborgza786

SAAB, is cutting down its fleet of jas39, so now there is a lot of grippen jas39 fighter aircraft available this is a once in a life time oppurtunity for pakistan we must get those fighter jets jas39 is a fourth genaration fighter aircraft pakistan must do all it can to secure the sale of these saab grippen jas39 for the pakistan air force with out delay and must buy them at once.
thanks

www.defenceindustrydaily.com


----------



## RAPTOR

genmirajborgza786 said:


> SAAB, is cutting down its fleet of jas39, so now there is a lot of grippen jas39 fighter aircraft available this is a once in a life time oppurtunity for pakistan we must get those fighter jets jas39 is a fourth genaration fighter aircraft pakistan must do all it can to secure the sale of these saab grippen jas39 for the pakistan air force with out delay and must buy them at once.thanks
> 
> www.defenceindustrydaily.com[/quote]
> 
> 
> SAAB/BAE just offered some to Bulgaria yesterday. I dont think Pakistan is interested in the JAS Gripen anymore . Why buy a fighter jet that is equally prone to sanctions and inferior to the Block60/52 F-16 ?


----------



## Owais

RAPTOR said:


> genmirajborgza786 said:
> 
> 
> 
> SAAB, is cutting down its fleet of jas39, so now there is a lot of grippen jas39 fighter aircraft available this is a once in a life time oppurtunity for pakistan we must get those fighter jets jas39 is a fourth genaration fighter aircraft pakistan must do all it can to secure the sale of these saab grippen jas39 for the pakistan air force with out delay and must buy them at once.thanks
> 
> www.defenceindustrydaily.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SAAB/BAE just offered some to Bulgaria yesterday. I dont think Pakistan is interested in the JAS Gripen anymore . Why buy a fighter jet that is equally prone to sanctions and inferior to the Block60/52 F-16 ?
Click to expand...

 Grippen is inferior to F16 bolck 50/52 in payload due to small engine as compared to F100-PW-229 but have almost same avionics as block 50/52 have.


----------



## TexasJohn

Owais said:


> Grippen is inferior to F16 bolck 50/52 in payload due to small engine as compared to F100-PW-229 but have almost same avionics as block 50/52 have.



I can only hope and wish that someone, somewhere, will realize that Pakistan is getting ready to spend copious quantities of money on an airframe that is very much at "end of life" even for the USAF, regardless of the " block". It is nothing more than a marketing strategy to keep a few good old boys employed in Ft.Worth. 

There are other planes out there that do outperform the F-16. Please do think:read: about it!


----------



## melb4aust

TexasJohn said:


> I can only hope and wish that someone, somewhere, will realize that Pakistan is getting ready to spend copious quantities of money on an airframe that is very much at "end of life" even for the USAF, regardless of the " block". It is nothing more than a marketing strategy to keep a few good old boys employed in Ft.Worth.
> 
> There are other planes out there that do outperform the F-16. Please do think:read: about it!


 
There is no doubt that i agree TexasJohn on this. 

But Man this is the only thing which has been offered to Pakistan or has been allowed for sale to Pakistan and after plenty of questions and doubts. Plus there can be other incentives Us offering as well with this F-16 deal. Some thing is better than nothing, i would say here.


----------



## Neo

TexasJohn said:


> I can only hope and wish that someone, somewhere, will realize that Pakistan is getting ready to spend copious quantities of money on an airframe that is very much at "end of life" even for the USAF, regardless of the " block". It is nothing more than a marketing strategy to keep a few good old boys employed in Ft.Worth.
> 
> There are other planes out there that do outperform the F-16. Please do think:read: about it!


This is one of the reasons we've downscaled the order.


----------



## sigatoka

How many operational Mig-29's plus Su-27's does the Indian airforce have in total? It can't be more than a 100 is it?


----------



## RAPTOR

Neo said:


> This is one of the reasons we've downscaled the order.


 
I think they had to buy a certain number of planes to be able to qualify for the substantial munitions package that PAF has gotten plus the MLUs for the A/B models. This package is far more comprehensive than anything Pakistan could have gotten from France or China.


----------



## master_fx

sigatoka said:


> How many operational Mig-29's plus Su-27's does the Indian airforce have in total? It can't be more than a 100 is it?


they dont have any su-27 instead they have su-30 and mig-29 which is around 200 is a great threat towards pakistan....


----------



## Neo

RAPTOR said:


> I think they had to buy a certain number of planes to be able to qualify for the substantial munitions package that PAF has gotten plus the MLUs for the A/B models. This package is far more comprehensive than anything Pakistan could have gotten from France or China.


Indeed!
Furthermore the F-16C/D is meant to close growing figher gap with IAF, its availabale and PAF already has experience with the platform.
Its a logic choice for many reasons.


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## Averroes

What's the latest info on the deal? I can't find any news other than that which was published aug 12 - 13 ish.


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## TexasJohn

master_fx said:


> they dont have any su-27 instead they have su-30 and mig-29 which is around 200 is a great threat towards pakistan....



I should provide a link ( lemme look) but I read all the IAF SU-30s are being upgraded to MKI and all MIG-29s are being upgraded to close OVT class. Additionally the old Jags are also getting new EW packages and weapons. 

India believes in upgrades. The MIG-21 Bison did put up a decent fight in the Cope India excercises. It surprised the USAF. China also has had similar upgrade/ reverse engineering projects with the MIG-21 airframe. I can't tell you the various designations off hand but let me look it up. It's there.


----------



## TexasJohn

Neo said:


> Indeed!
> Furthermore the F-16C/D is meant to close growing figher gap with IAF, its availabale and PAF already has experience with the platform.
> Its a logic choice for many reasons.



Neo, here is my take on that. Both the IAF and PAF fall into this trap.

PAF thinks, gee, since we already have the infrastructure and training facilities for the 16 platform, we can simply " upgrade" and get there. The F-16 is also an emotional issue also in Pakistan.

IAF thinks, gee, since we are already familiar with the MIG and Sukhoi platform, lets upgrade and we will get there.

There really needs to be some thinking out of the box in both Air Forces.

Does Britian still fly the Spitfire simply because they won the Battle of Britain?

Time and technology move on. The hero of yesterday is an old man today.

Even the USAF has no more orders for the F-16 - regardless of block.

Every worthy Air Force needs to think with that philosophy.

Air superiority is a moving target. The Air Force that does not quickly adapt will be left behind. 

Bottom line, Pakistan should not be wanting F-16s. Of course the US is going to offer " sweetners". Defence companies like money of course.

I bet British companies will start building the Spitfire if some banana republic was to place a firm order for 300 of them!

There are much better planes out there for the money being spent.


----------



## araz

TexasJohn said:


> Neo, here is my take on that. Both the IAF and PAF fall into this trap.
> 
> PAF thinks, gee, since we already have the infrastructure and training facilities for the 16 platform, we can simply " upgrade" and get there. The F-16 is also an emotional issue also in Pakistan.
> 
> IAF thinks, gee, since we are already familiar with the MIG and Sukhoi platform, lets upgrade and we will get there.
> 
> There really needs to be some thinking out of the box in both Air Forces.
> 
> Does Britian still fly the Spitfire simply because they won the Battle of Britain?
> 
> Time and technology move on. The hero of yesterday is an old man today.
> 
> Even the USAF has no more orders for the F-16 - regardless of block.
> 
> Every worthy Air Force needs to think with that philosophy.
> 
> Air superiority is a moving target. The Air Force that does not quickly adapt will be left behind.
> 
> Bottom line, Pakistan should not be wanting F-16s. Of course the US is going to offer " sweetners". Defence companies like money of course.
> 
> I bet British companies will start building the Spitfire if some banana republic was to place a firm order for 300 of them!
> 
> There are much better planes out there for the money being spent.




Texas John,
There is a problem that you have not considered in you post. It is a million dollar one!!! Money my friend. We would all like to change aircrafts like we change cars every 4-5 yrs. Technology changes are advancing at a sufficiently advanced rate for us to do so. But not even the greatest nations on the face of this Earth can afford to do so. F16 is 60-70s technology that has satisfied the American AFs need till 2010-12. It is logical to acquire a platform and use it for 20-30 yrs and upgrade the technology as it appears. Pakistan and India , to a lesser or greater instant have the same problem of high percentile of population below poverty line , a country whose infrastructure demands massive money that they dont have and threat perception! If you looked at it objectively,with both countries having become Nuclear powers, the likelihood of war is minimal and consideration of even a limited aggression would be mad. That is why armies are accumulated at the borders, sabres are rattled and then it is back to normalcy. There is not going to be a war in the region now or ever! But would this prevent both countries from accumulating arms. No. So the second best thing is to upgrade for sabre rattling exercises.I hope you get the drift.
Araz


----------



## TexasJohn

Araz, you do have a very valid point. Sabre rattling appears to be the order of the day. I've watched the Wagah border closing video. It is like watching a comedy show.


----------



## Neo

Good points Taxas John but Araz' reply is as good and valid!
Its not only the money but also accessability to world markets which has resulted into the downscaled purchase of the F-16.

Never the less I'm pretty content with this choice, F-16 will compliment the JF-17 and JC-20 and most likely another 4.5 gen fighter till 2020 and a total of 96 is a good number.

Pakistan could have opted for the Typhoon or the Rafale but not in this quantity. With current budget we can't afford to have more than 24 of these jets, but we need to replace a fleet 300 ageing designs!

F-16 is a logic and a good choice. The design may not be the latest available, its the armament wich makes it lethal.
Look at the broader picture and you'll understand!


----------



## Neo

*United Technologies Beats GE on F-16 Deal, People Say (Update1)* 


By Tony Capaccio and Rachel Layne

Aug. 23 (Bloomberg) -- United Technologies Corp., the world's third-largest maker of airplane engines, won a contract to supply turbines for as many as 36 F-16 fighter jets being bought by Pakistan, people familiar with the order said. 
The company's Pratt & Whitney unit beat General Electric Co. for the engine deal, said five people with knowledge of the order who asked not to be named because it hasn't been announced. They declined to put a value on the transaction because the exact number of planes hasn't been determined. 

An initial 18-engine order is worth about $200 million, said Teal Group analyst Richard Aboulafia. The award will boost Pratt & Whitney's engine business as production of Lockheed Martin Corp.'s F-16 slows in favor of its F-35 Lightning II, formerly known as the Joint Strike Fighter. Pratt & Whitney sells the main engine on older F-16s, including those used by Pakistan. 

``It's tough to unseat an incumbent,'' Aboulafia said. ``But it is a good win. F-16 work is winding down, so it is essential for Pratt to avoid a trough until the JSF ramps up.'' 
The engine order may be announced next month in Pakistan, when the country's government is expected to sign its formal request for aircraft, engines and armaments, the officials said. 

Pratt & Whitney spokeswoman Heather Summerer declined to comment, as did Rick Kennedy, a spokesman for Fairfield, Connecticut-based General Electric. Akram Shaheedi, Pakistan's press attache in Washington, didn't return a call seeking comment. 

Shares of Hartford, Connecticut-based United Technologies, which trails GE and Rolls-Royce Group Plc in jet-engine sales, fell 13 cents to $60.77 at 4 p.m. in New York Stock Exchange composite trading. GE fell 17 cents to $33.79. 

*$5 Billion Package* 

Congress last month approved a basic arms package for Pakistan, valued at as much as $5 billion, including 18 new F-16 fighters with an option to buy 18 more. The single-engine aircraft were to be powered by either GE or Pratt & Whitney, the Pentagon said. 

Aboulafia said the initial 18 engines are valued at about $200 million, and more than twice that when upgrades and spare parts are included. The F-16 deal ends a 15-year ban on sales of the fighter to Pakistan, an important ally in the fight against terrorism. 
Pratt & Whitney is the sole engine provider for the F-35 Lightning II until 2012, when GE can compete with an engine made in a venture with London-based Rolls-Royce. GE is fighting in Congress to restore funding for a backup engine, which the Pentagon wants to eliminate to reduce costs. 
Military Orders 

Pratt & Whitney's military division provided about one-third of the engine maker's 2005 revenue of $9.3 billion. Military engines at GE made up $3.5 billion of the aviation division's $11.9 billion in sales last year. 

The Pakistan transaction also includes 36 advanced pilot helmets that can display targeting information on the visor, as many as 500 of Chicago-based Boeing Co.'s kits to assemble satellite-guided bombs for ground attacks, and as many as 1,600 laser-guided bombs produced by Bethesda, Maryland-based Lockheed and Waltham, Massachusetts-based Raytheon Co. 

The package also includes 700 bunker-buster, 2,000-pound BLU-109 bombs; 800 Mk-82 unguided munitions and 700 Raytheon air- to-air missiles. 

http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a_cKQnpTO7Uc


----------



## Quwa

Guess the Pakistani F-16s will be Block 52+ - was a given since the older F-16s also use P&W engines; and the PAF is poising to cut down on logistical costs as much as possible.

With regards to the PAF F-16 deal; to be very blant, that deal has stuff that India already and does not operate - yet. So I think the deal is fine - with the exception of cost - but as of now, cheaper and equally as good options are NOT available to PAF.


----------



## TexasJohn

Mark Sien said:


> Guess the Pakistani F-16s will be Block 52+ - was a given since the older F-16s also use P&W engines; and the PAF is poising to cut down on logistical costs as much as possible.



I could have sworn they were GE engines in the old ones. Did P&W go to some specific countries for export?


----------



## Zeeshan S.

So we are finally getting 700 AMRAAM Raytheon missiles? This is a great news!


----------



## melb4aust

Zeeshan S. said:


> So we are finally getting 700 AMRAAM Raytheon missiles? This is a great news!


 
700 i dont think so, i think they are around 400.


----------



## Owais

Neo said:


> The package also includes 700 bunker-buster, 2,000-pound BLU-109 bombs; 800 Mk-82 unguided munitions and 700 Raytheon air- to-air missiles.
> .


what class of this misile we will be getting?? AIM 120A/B/C/D??
is BLU-109 is a JDAM???


----------



## Quwa

TexasJohn said:


> I could have sworn they were GE engines in the old ones. Did P&W go to some specific countries for export?


The F-16A/B only uses P&W F100-PW-200. GE engines were introduced on the F-16C/Ds.

For everyone else; 
The PAF F-16 deal includes; 500 AIM-120C5 AMRAAM, 200 AIM-9M8/9, 500 JDAM kits, and the 700 BLU-109s are bunkerbusters.


----------



## Averroes

Not relating to this current purchase but when Turkey receives F-35, would they consider selling their F-16s to Pakistan you think?


----------



## Quwa

AverrÃÂ¶es said:


> Not relating to this current purchase but when Turkey receives F-35, would they consider selling their F-16s to Pakistan you think?


Only if one of these two occur;
1) U.S - Pakistan relations good/satisfactory
2) Turk-U.S relations go down the drain


----------



## Averroes

if Turk - US relations go down the drain, then there's no F-35 and they won't ever sell the planes.

I think US - Pak relations might get better, because their plans haven't turned out the way they wanted it, so they're going to need Pakistan. 

But if the relations are good and permitted by us, wud Turkey being a good ally actually consider selling them?


----------



## Quwa

> if Turk - US relations go down the drain, then there's no F-35 and they won't ever sell the planes.


hmm...I was wrong on this one; on the other hand, if Turkey ever found a replacement they would sell the F-16s if Pakistan wanted to buy them (and if U.S relations were sour with Pakistan).


----------



## Neo

unday, September 03, 2006javascript:; http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/print.asp?page=2006\09\03\story_3-9-2006_pg7_39

LAHORE: The governmentÃ¢â¬â¢s decision to buy, repair and upgrade 96 F-16 aircrafts on Ã¢â¬ÅshamefulÃ¢â¬Â conditions was tantamount to making Pakistan an American colony, said Muttahida Majlis-e-Amal President Qazi Hussain Ahmad on Saturday.

In a strong-worded statement on Saturday, Qazi said that under the deal, Islamabad would buy 36 new, 26 used and 34 upgraded F-16s for $5.1 billion to be paid in advance. He said that Islamabad had to fulfill certain conditions, including the presence of US personnel at the Pakistani airbase for daily checking of the aircraft, two-man rule for access to F-16 equipment, monitoring flights and operations, bar to carry nuclear warheads and prior approval of the US government for operation against a third nation. 

The MMA leader said all these conditions were prejudicial to the national interest. He said all Pakistani airbases would come under the control of US air force. 

He said that US Assistant Secretary of State for Political Military Affairs John Helen had categorically stated that this deal would prevent China from building a strategic military-to-military relationship with Pakistan. Ã¢â¬ÅThis will convert Pakistan from a sovereign and independent country to an American colony,Ã¢â¬Â he said. 


http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2006\09\03\story_3-9-2006_pg7_39


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## Neo

> *He said that Islamabad had to fulfill certain conditions, including the presence of US personnel at the Pakistani airbase for daily checking of the aircraft, two-man rule for access to F-16 equipment, monitoring flights and operations, bar to carry nuclear warheads and prior approval of the US government for operation against a third nation.*



Can someone confirm this? :what1:


----------



## Averroes

Goodness, this is deplorable. Have we sunk this low?

Israel has been responsible for selling classified US military equipment to China despite restriction, yet do you ever hear them complaining or monitoring them despite the fact that all their oppressions occur with US weapons?


----------



## Quwa

MMA has taken this way too out of proportion; the actual conditions themselves aren't as harsh as they're depicted by MMA. 


> In a strong-worded statement on Saturday, Qazi said that under the deal, Islamabad would buy 36 new, 26 used and 34 upgraded F-16s for $5.1 billion to be paid in advance.


5.1bn USD paid in advance? Pakistan does not have this money - and in order to do that, it would have to be paid by external funds. Only one country could possibly do this for Pakistan - the U.S; if its U.S funds, then whats the problem? Otherwise - the PAF Air Chief said the 5.1bn USD will be paid over 10-15 years after the deal is signed.


> He said that Islamabad had to fulfill certain conditions, including the presence of US personnel at the Pakistani airbase for daily checking of the aircraft, two-man rule for access to F-16 equipment, monitoring flights and operations, bar to carry nuclear warheads and prior approval of the US government for operation against a third nation


Daily checking? No such thing - its routine semi-annual checking; and it was done by the U.S during the mid 1980s when the PAF got its original F-16s. As for the 'two man rule' and 'monitoring flights and operations' - that was not mentioned in the conditions. The third nation rule would at best apply to international excersizes; if Pakistan went to war, the U.S would embargo it regardless of how the F-16s are used. 


> The MMA leader said all these conditions were prejudicial to the national interest. He said all Pakistani airbases would come under the control of US air force.
> 
> He said that US Assistant Secretary of State for Political Military Affairs John Helen had categorically stated that this deal would prevent China from building a strategic military-to-military relationship with Pakistan. &#8220;This will convert Pakistan from a sovereign and independent country to an American colony,&#8221; he said.


The MMA leader was not there at the negotiations, he knows squat about the PAF. If anything, it is his statement which is prejudged and baseless; does he have adequate proof about USAF having control over Pakistani air bases - or rather most of his statements? 

BTW you cannot convert a politically emotional country into your puppet by selling it weapons. You could convert it by giving it 25-30bn USD in aid within a decade, and continue providing 1-2bn USD every year - in the case of Egypt. And if these F-16s are being bought by the U.S - whats the problem?


----------



## Neo

Mark Sien said:


> MMA has taken this way too out of proportion; the actual conditions themselves aren't as harsh as they're depicted by MMA.


Damn, I hate incompetant opposition! :hrr:



> 5.1bn USD paid in advance? Pakistan does not have this money - and in order to do that, it would have to be paid by external funds. Only one country could possibly do this for Pakistan - the U.S; if its U.S funds, then whats the problem? *Otherwise - the PAF Air Chief said the 5.1bn USD will be paid over 10-15 years after the deal is signed*.


Indeed, he also stated before that the purchase will not be funded by 'new loans' but from the defence budget and USaid.



> Daily checking? No such thing - its routine semi-annual checking; and it was done by the U.S during the mid 1980s when the PAF got its original F-16s. As for the 'two man rule' and 'monitoring flights and operations' - that was not mentioned in the conditions. The third nation rule would at best apply to international excersizes; *if Pakistan went to war, the U.S would embargo it regardless of how the F-16s are used*.


This is my major concern, the F-16's would survive a short conflict but on the longer run we'll be out of spares as history proves that US embargo is likely.
Imho the deal should have included spares supply from a third country like Turkey at all times.



> The MMA leader was not there at the negotiations, he knows squat about the PAF. If anything, it is his statement which is prejudged and baseless; does he have adequate proof about USAF having control over Pakistani air bases - or rather most of his statements?


Agreed!



> BTW you cannot convert a politically emotional country into your puppet by selling it weapons. You could convert it by giving it 25-30bn USD in aid within a decade, and continue providing 1-2bn USD every year - in the case of Egypt. And if these F-16s are being bought by the U.S - whats the problem?


Well said Mark!


----------



## KashifAsrar

This is interesting news indeed !! 



> Islamabad would buy 36 new, 26 used and 34 upgraded F-16s for *$5.1 billion* to be paid in advance. He said that Islamabad had to fulfill certain conditions, including the *presence of US personnel at the Pakistani airbase* for daily checking of the aircraft, *two-man rule for access to F-16 equipment, monitoring flights and operations, bar to carry nuclear warheads and prior approval of the US government* for operation against a third nation.



This is really sinking to knees !! MUSH is really a dictator AMERICANS should be proud of !! 
Pakistan on a low esteem here. Very Low Indeed !!
Kashif


----------



## Quwa

KashifAsrar said:


> This is interesting news indeed !!
> 
> 
> 
> This is really sinking to knees !! MUSH is really a dictator AMERICANS should be proud of !!
> Pakistan on a low esteem here. Very Low Indeed !!
> Kashif


You've sunk even lower by not reading the responses to the article. Maybe you should study world politics a bit - you'll realize that most governments in the world are types of dictatorships. The Arab Gulf and Egypt are examples - while Turkey is manipulated by their military.

Neo;

It is well established that Pakistan will be embargoed by the U.S and Western World; and a war would financially be too costly - even if no one embargoed Pakistan. Best way is to create a conventional threshold and avoid war; but of course keep complete soveriegnty.


----------



## glyn

Mark Sien said:


> It is well established that Pakistan will be embargoed by the U.S and Western World; and a war would financially be too costly - even if no one embargoed Pakistan. Best way is to create a conventional threshold and avoid war; but of course keep complete soveriegnty.




Well said! Some forum members seem to me to be 'gung ho' and rather bloodthirsty. It was an early American President who said "There never was a bad peace, and there never is a good war". Yes, I know, what a pity the present incumbent never studied history, tell me about it! If you want my two-pennyworth (lots won't) I think it would be better to have just "sufficient" military hardware to defend oneself. I think some of what I've read on this forum about nuclear weapons and their possible usage is lunacy. Goodbye world, or at least civilisation as we know it once these get slung around. A good neighbour policy is essential for all states with shared borders. Space research and the like might be highly regarded, but they are frightningly expensive, and if I may say, quite un-necessary for Pakistan. I'm sure you can think of better ways that money can be spent on internal developments, because I certainly can. I would welcome more sentiments like those expressed by Mark Sien


----------



## Quwa

War is the last thing anyone would want - especially between two regional powers; the decade long Iran - Iraq war turned two first world nations into third world piggy banks. A long-term war would require billions of dollars to simply destroy stuff and kill off lives; what exactly is the benefit in that? Besides, a war would be the very - VERY last thing Pakistan would want; even a conventional war will drag it down with an economic depression and social upheaval. 

A military should be a working ceremonial outfit to ensure a country's independance - and NOT be an aggressor for war. You have a strong economy and you want it the world to recognize it, have a strong military. You have interests that you want to guard - have a military. If you're building a military for the prime sake of world domination - then you'll face horrible consequences.

However one must note; political bullying and aspirations of domination are also not good. Certain countries must have a strong military to ensure a larger rival does not exploit any weakenesses. If one side pulled the trigger - then its a bloodbath; sometimes peace requires two powerful or two weak sides.

There is a difference between a military for world domination and military for protecting interests and keeping regionally on par. Thus far I think Pakistan is spending on a military to keep on par - and in my honest opinion, it has very little money to spend.


----------



## Neo

Sir Glyn, 

Pakistan doesn't want to fight his neighbors and we have a 'keeping minimum deterrance' doctrine which is based around our modest nuclear arsenal.

Therefor Mark's statement "A military should be a working ceremonial outfit to ensure a country's independance - and NOT be an aggressor for war." applies!


----------



## glyn

Sir Glyn implies a knighthood, young Neo, and (inexplicably) I have never been knighted.
Benighted, more like!


----------



## Neo

Sir,

The country or actually the region I'm from its quite normal to address senior people as 'Sir' ou of respect.
Seniority btw isn't always about the age. 
In your case its about knowledge and life experience.


----------



## Neo

WASHINGTON, Sept 4: PakistanÃ¢â¬â¢s military action in Balochistan will not affect a $5 billion US deal for selling F-16 fighter jets to the country, the US state department said. The departmentÃ¢â¬â¢s comments follow media reports that Pakistan has used against the rebels some of the weapons it received from the US for fighting Al Qaeda sympathisers and drug smugglers.

Ã¢â¬ÅThe current events in Balochistan are unlikely to have any effect on the sale of F-16s to that country,Ã¢â¬Â a state department official told reporters in Washington.

The official said the US administration believed slain Baloch leader Nawab Akbar Bugti Ã¢â¬Åwanted to take control of natural resources in Balochistan through violent means and this is something that the US does not condoneÃ¢â¬Â.


----------



## TexasJohn

Neo said:


> Can someone confirm this? :what1:



Neo, I had also read this earlier. It's post #34 in this thread. The link was from an Indian newspaper. No one responded to it.

http://www.indianexpress.com/story/9462.html


----------



## Neo

John,

Read Mark Sien's last three posts in this thread.
He's replied it already.

The report is hogwash!


----------



## glyn

Neo said:


> Sir,
> 
> The country or actually the region I'm from its quite normal to address senior people as 'Sir' ou of respect.
> Seniority btw isn't always about the age.
> In your case its about knowledge and life experience.



Ah, Neo, we might be separated by age, geographical distance and possibly much else, but I too was brought up to be respectful to my seniors and considerate of my peers so in this we are 'two hearts that beat as one'.
I salute you, young sir.


----------



## KashifAsrar

*Substantial discount in the price of the F-16 aircraft *



> WASHINGTON: Pakistani President General Pervez Musharraf, who has already left for his longest visit to the US so far, is understood to be carrying private assurances from President Bush that he may receive a substantial discount in the price of the F-16 aircraft Pakistan is currently in the process of purchasing from Washington.
> 
> Well placed Pakistani sources say the first indication of a substantial price reduction, or compensation in lieu of such a cut, was given by General Musharraf himself to his military colleagues in recent weeks after a telephonic talk with President Bush, who acknowledged only two days ago that he keeps talking to Mr. Musharraf frequently.





> Experts say while technically it may not be possible for Mr. Bush to &#8220;reduce&#8221; the price of the F-16 aircraft as the manufacturers have to get their price with the profits, it may be possible for the US President to *compensate Pakistan in some other way*, either by an increase in the direct US economic or military aid or writing off existing loans or in some other financial arrangement.



http://www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=2989


----------



## blain2

TexasJohn said:


> Neo, I had also read this earlier. It's post #34 in this thread. The link was from an Indian newspaper. No one responded to it.
> 
> http://www.indianexpress.com/story/9462.html



As long as that article puts Indians at ease, us Pakistanis are fine with it believe me . The idea was to get the F-16s released (and looking at DSCA releases, the package is amazingly awesome) and there were multiple ways to skin this cat...the way it was worked out was agreed to by the PAF because in reality, its not as intrusive as it sounds.

We have been working with US military transfers for a long time and one of the individuals who was involved in the earlier deal said that very similar restrictions were placed in the 83-84 purchase as well and they are very legitimate (from a sellers standpoint) and can be dealt with practically.


----------



## Neo

Discount on F-16 deal to Pak in the offing

*Press Trust of India*

Islamabad, September 12, 2006

US President George W Bush plans to announce a "substantial discount" on the five billion dollar deal to sell F-16s to Pakistan during President Pervez Musharraf's visit to Washington as a gesture of approval of his handling of the war on terror, a media report said on Tuesday.

Musharraf, who left for Brussels on Monday on his way to the US, is "understood to be carrying private assurances from President Bush that he may receive a substantial discount in the price of the F-16 aircraft Pakistan is currently in the process of purchasing from Washington," _The News_ reported.

"The first indication of a substantial price reduction, or compensation in lieu of such a cut, was given by General Musharraf himself to his military colleagues in recent weeks after a telephonic talk with President Bush, who acknowledged only two days ago that he keeps talking to Musharraf frequently," the report said.

"While technically it may not be possible for Bush to "reduce" the price of the F-16 aircraft as manufacturers have to get their price with the profits, it may be possible for the US President to compensate Pakistan in some other way, either by an increase in the direct US economic or military aid or writing off existing loans or in some other financial arrangement," the newspaper said.

There is already a raging controversy in Pakistan over the purchase of 38 new and old F-16s over remarks by US officials that Washington would impose strict guidelines, which include periodic inspections of the fleet and their bases to verify guarantees by Pakistan that it would not pass the technology to China.

The planes apparently would also not carry facilities to carry nuclear weapons.
"All these feelings for General Musharraf flow from the strategy that the war on terror is being won and only the Republicans can win this war as compared to Democrats no matter how strong the negative feelings among Americans against the war in Iraq or how damaging its consequences in the November elections," it said.

To counter this Republican strategy, the Democrats and their mouthpieces in the media, are pounding hard on Musharraf who now appears to be acquiring the status of a "political football" for electioneering purposes.

Democratic Party Chairman Howard Dean went on a "rampage" against Musharraf attacking the Pakistan President's deal with tribal in Waziristan.

"Today, or this week, northern Pakistan was written off by President Musharraf. They have now a treaty that they won't go - or an agreement with the tribes that they won't go in and enforce their jurisdiction.

"You know, Afghanistan is turning against us, and that is where the fight on terror is. That's where Osama bin Laden is. Osama bin Laden has not been captured five years later. That's a big problem," it quoted him as saying to the US TV networks.

It also said in order to show Musharraf as a success, the Republican party through its International Republican Institute conducted a survey in Pakistan the results of which showed favourable rating for Musharraf even though it said he should quit one of the offices and allow former Prime Ministers, Benazir Bhutto and Nawaz Sharif.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/7598_1794015,000500020000.htm


----------



## Sid

Ok I have competely stopped relying on Indian news media especially after the article 'Pakistan acquires capability to build nuclear subs'. That news has yet to be confirmed by any credible news agency. And I wont bet a dime on anything that comes out of the Indian press till I see it backed up by another agency with some repute to talk of.


----------



## EagleEyes

Pakistan acquires capability to build nuclear subs was not published by Indian news media, but by The News International of Jang News paper, Pakistan.

http://thenews.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=2944


----------



## Sid

Ah yes, I missed that. The News was probably the only Pakistan newspaper reporting but Indian Media splashed that all over their networks. Anywayz, the so-called capability to build nuclear sub has yet to be verified by any of the credible military sources, such as Janes.


----------



## Neo

Tuesday, September 19, 2006 

_By Khalid Hasan_

NEW YORK: Foreign Minister Khurshid Mahmood Kasuri has dismissed as unfounded the view that the F16s Pakistan is buying from the United States are ill-equipped to deal effectively with Pakistan&#8217;s defence needs.

The minister told a press conference on Sunday evening that Pakistan is not buying &#8220;remote control toys&#8221;, nor paying $5 billion from its own resources to purchase aircraft that would not fulfil its defence requirements. What Pakistan is acquiring is &#8220;bang for the buck&#8221;. He did not wish to make any comment on what has been appearing on this issue in the US media. &#8220;These are weapons for Pakistan&#8217;s defence. We lack high performance aircraft and that&#8217;s what we are getting.&#8221; Obviously, there are restrictions countries place on transfer of technology, he added. He said he had spoken to the Pakistan Air Force chief who had told him that the F16s the country had ordered are perfectly suited to its defence needs.

Asked about the forthcoming Bush-Musharraf meeting in Washington, Kasuri said there is strong personal chemistry between the two leaders. The meeting is significant because it is the first time the two are meeting since the start of the strategic relationship that now exists between Washington and Islamabad. &#8220;Our relations are now multifaceted and not confined to the war on terror,&#8221; he stressed. He said a major effort is going to be underway for the economic development of the tribal areas.

Kasuri, commenting on the &#8220;blame game&#8221; some people are playing as to Osama bin Laden&#8217;s &#8220;presence&#8221; in Pakistan, said it is both unfair and without validity. Sometimes it is said that Osama and his top deputies are hiding in Chitral, which is not a Pushtu-speaking area; sometimes it is said that Mullah Omar was seen praying in a mosque in Quetta. The likelihood of such a possibility is remote since every major Al Qaeda figure has been caught in urban areas. It is easier to hide in caves in remote hilly areas, which are mostly across the border. He said it is &#8220;very unfair to do finger-pointing.&#8221; 

What intelligence Pakistan has, he pointed out, it shares with the CIA as with 50 other countries, he added.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2006\09\19\story_19-9-2006_pg7_17


----------



## Janbaz

Isn't Mirage 2000 any good. Seems better than F-16 and is a heavyweight jet as is J-10


----------



## Quwa

Janbaz said:


> Isn't Mirage 2000 any good. Seems better than F-16 and is a heavyweight jet as is J-10


The Mirage 2000-5Mk2 and F-16C/D Block 52 are equal in most areas; Mirage 2000-5Mk2 excells in high altitude combat whereas F-16 excells in low altitude combat. For the most part, South Asian air warfare was, is and will primarily be low altitude (dogfights). Not to mention the fact that the PAF is getting the F-16C/D Block 52+ aka "Advanced Block 52"; which stands between Mirage 2000-5Mk2 and Mirage 2000-9, if not equal to the dash-9.


----------



## MOO

French Mirage 2000-5 with the radar RDY7 has a bigger air-air detection range of 130km when you compare it to the F16 C/D AN/APG-68 (V)9 radar with only 110km.  

Both fighters are very good in BVR combat, the MICA and AIM-120s are among the best missiles for the job. Out of the two fighters the F16 has the edge for the strike role and is a better bomber.


----------



## smahmuds

well all the things seems pretty from the point of view of this new agreement but the bad thing is about the news circulating about the use of these F-16s in combat and specially in aerial attacks over an enemy territory. whether pakistan is getting discount or not, whether they are equipped with latest technology or not, the only thing bothering me is the limitation of their use. they are useless for pakistan if they are being accepted with such limitations.

it would not be a good idea to pursue this deal. rather by injecting the same amount in the JF-17 project and J-10's further advancement, pakistan can gain a lot. if a fighter has been evolved by a nation with meagre resources at its disposal in terms of technology, infrastructure, manpower, why isn't it possible for it to go further by investing this money in the stated areas. i am convinced a better fighter is possible to design by this investment. at least we will be able to use it whereever we wish to do it with out any limitations. 

we have come this far with the JF-17 project. we can go further in its improvement and innovations. let the F-16 rest in peace.


----------



## blain2

MOO said:


> French Mirage 2000-5 with the radar RDY7 has a bigger air-air detection range of 130km when you compare it to the F16 C/D AN/APG-68 (V)9 radar with only 110km.
> 
> Both fighters are very good in BVR combat, the MICA and AIM-120s are among the best missiles for the job. Out of the two fighters the F16 has the edge for the strike role and is a better bomber.



F-16 is a better multirole fighter than the M2K. In certain specific flight profiles, the Mirage2000 may be better, but PAF gets a bigger bang for its buck when it invests in true multi-role fighters like the F-16. Dassault may disagree with this, but thus far most of the M2Ks in deployment are actually more optimized for one role or the other. Such is not the case with the F-16.

With Link-16 on the F-16s, the max. radar detection range is not really a big issue especially with the AEW&CS system like the Erieye thrown into the equation.


----------



## Kaiser

The mirage is a pretty decent machine but, the F-16 is better in low-altitude and strike missions. I think that the PAF will use JF-17, F-16 and J-10 all as a multirole fighter platform. Once all 3 are inducted the PAF will have western, european, chinese, and indiginous tech at its deposal


----------



## Quwa

smahmuds said:


> well all the things seems pretty from the point of view of this new agreement but the bad thing is about the news circulating about the use of these F-16s in combat and specially in aerial attacks over an enemy territory. whether pakistan is getting discount or not, whether they are equipped with latest technology or not, the only thing bothering me is the limitation of their use. they are useless for pakistan if they are being accepted with such limitations.


With 5bn USD the PAF would've gone for Mirage 2000-5Mk2s or something else rather than F-16s - if it knew that the Falcons would be useless. There are probably loopholes in the agreement - such as as where DRFM could be acquired, etc; don't worry about it.


----------



## Kaiser

Forget ay 4th generation fighter we should have gone for 50 EF-2000's or Rafales, instead our govt is still obsessed with the F-16 which can be equal to our JF-17 if we make JF-17 alittle better.

If I was president I would have gone for 

-50 EF-2000, rafale
-100 J-10
-200 JF-17

This would have been perfect for the PAF


----------



## blain2

Kaiser said:


> Forget ay 4th generation fighter we should have gone for 50 EF-2000's or Rafales, instead our govt is still obsessed with the F-16 which can be equal to our JF-17 if we make JF-17 alittle better.
> 
> If I was president I would have gone for
> 
> -50 EF-2000, rafale
> -100 J-10
> -200 JF-17
> 
> This would have been perfect for the PAF



Well no offense, but I am glad that you are not the president 

The call on the F-16 was made after evaluating all options. The EF-2K and Rafale are just as sanctions-prone as the F-16s have the potential to be.

JF-17 would take another 5-10 years to become as good as the blk 52 F-16 (Chinese simply do not have the technical knowhow at this time to even make the J-10 equal to blk52 so PAF cannot keep on waiting...its a matter of carpe diem for the PAF b/c if we do not buy the blk 52s, we would be eating IAF's dust).


----------



## MOO

No way, if I was the leader of Pakistan I would've gone for 50 or so of some of the latest models of F15's instead. With the performaces equivalent to Singapore's latest model, the F15SG which is superior in air-to-air and air-to ground role. An AESA equipped Eagle could have given IAF and its Flankers a Hell of a battle instead.

F16s and Mirage's are for midget countries, the more heavier multirole strike fighters is what Pakistan should aquire if ever a chance they decided if they have a need to strike deep into India.

But that's just me Haha.


----------



## Quwa

If the PAF had 50 F-15Es - it would have pay close to 1bn USD a year to keep them in the air for 180 hours per pilot. Besides, the F-16s are a fine option for the South Asian equation - I simply do not see why people have problems with what PAF chose after years of research and what not? If the PAF were to get anything in the league of Rafale or EF-2000 - then it will come from China; the only European fighter the PAF may remotely have interest in is Gripen.


----------



## blain2

MOO said:


> No way, if I was the leader of Pakistan I would've gone for 50 or so of some of the latest models of F15's instead. With the performaces equivalent to Singapore's latest model, the F15SG which is superior in air-to-air and air-to ground role. An AESA equipped Eagle could have given IAF and its Flankers a Hell of a battle instead.
> 
> F16s and Mirage's are for midget countries, the more heavier multirole strike fighters is what Pakistan should aquire if ever a chance they decided if they have a need to strike deep into India.
> 
> But that's just me Haha.



Pakistan is not interested in twin-engined aircraft (maint. is very expensive and in case of sanctions, you'd be hurting even more). Pakistan wants the biggest bang for its buck thus a Multi-role aircraft like the F-16 makes better sense than F-15 and its variant. A blk 52 with AEW&CS platform support would also give Flankers hell. PAF needs to focus on the entire systems at its disposal and not just specific components like F-15 or F-16. There is a lot of technology available which renders long range AI radars on the F-15s and Flankers redundant.


----------



## Kaiser

Well for all you monkey F-16 supporters I see how un-educated you people really are

*PAKISTAN DECIDES TO DELAY F-16 WITH THE U.S.*



> ISLAMABAD - Pakistan has decided to delay signing a deal to purchase F-16 aircraft from the US after it found that the planes would be delivered without electronic warfare systems, which are vital for real time monitoring. The F-16 deal is thought to be Pakistan's reward for assisting the US in the war on terror, but relations between the two allies are on a low in recent months.
> 
> After the Pakistani Air Force complained that the warfare components were missing, the Ministry of Defense requested the US Secretary of Air Force International Affairs, (SAIFA) to extend the date of purchase till December 31 this year, according to a report in Pakistani weekly Friday Times. Pakistan was thought to be on the verge of signing the letter of acceptance (LOA) for purchase of 36 F-16 fighters, but the deal looks to be in murky waters now.
> President Musharraf is expected to speak to his US counterpart George Bush on the matter this week. The deal was delayed because the US decided to impose new conditions. "So the signing deal is off. Perhaps President Musharraf will try to extract some concessions during his meeting with Bush. But the entire deal is likely to spark much more debate and change before finalization," a Pakistani officials told Friday Times.
> 
> The report adds that the 36 aircraft, which are a part of the deal, did not have EW capabilities, which would increase the power of Pakistan's radar warning receiver (RWR).
> 
> Also the aircraft would only be able to identify non-Nato enemies. The Pakistani official said that if any NATO aircraft were involved in the battle it would be tough to detect them.
> Relations between the US and Pakistan have soured recently, because the US thinks Pakistan is not doing enough to hunt down Osama bin Laden. Pakistan maintains that it is helping the US in every way it can.


 
http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/8924.html

http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?NewsID=1054546

There will be more news on this in the next couple of hours



> Well no offense, but I am glad that you are not the president
> 
> The call on the F-16 was made after evaluating all options. The EF-2K and Rafale are just as sanctions-prone as the F-16s have the potential to be.
> 
> JF-17 would take another 5-10 years to become as good as the blk 52 F-16 (Chinese simply do not have the technical knowhow at this time to even make the J-10 equal to blk52 so PAF cannot keep on waiting...its a matter of carpe diem for the PAF b/c if we do not buy the blk 52s, we would be eating IAF's dust).


 
In 5-10 Year China will have already finished developement of the J-10C which is expected to be on par with the latest fighters in the world at that time. If US has sanctioned us 3 times dont you think they would do It again? Right know the terms that US says pakistan has to agree to, to buy the F-16's are

-US personals would be on PAF bases at all time to make sure PAF doesnt meddle witht he aircraft
-F-16 will not come with EW systems
-F-16's will not be able to detect NATO fighters (seems suspicious doesnt it)
-F-16's are not to be customized or upgraded in anyway
- US will install special system to turn off F-16 radar and systems at anytime it wishes

And there are many more


----------



## A.Rahman

> US will install special system to turn off F-16 radar and systems at anytime it wishes


 
how can they do that ?!


----------



## Neo

I'm curious if there's one single idiot in the Pentagon or the Congress who actually believes that we'll be buying F-16's under these conditions.  

Its just another PR stunt, F-16's will come with the systems we've asked for or the deal is No Go!


----------



## Zeeshan S.

I dont think that we will have these kind of things in the F-16s that we will purchase.



> -US personals would be on PAF bases at all time to make sure PAF doesnt meddle witht he aircraft
> -F-16 will not come with EW systems
> -F-16's will not be able to detect NATO fighters (seems suspicious doesnt it)
> -F-16's are not to be customized or upgraded in anyway
> - US will install special system to turn off F-16 radar and systems at anytime it wishes


 
But i am sure that we will not be getting anything that will be a dangerous to use back against them. Its obvious and makes sense. If you put Pakistan in U.S shoes you will probably agree that U.S is doing right. Everyone looks for their interests, but now why buy something that has no potential for future, and has no more rooms for upgrades?

Instead we should just buy some more squadrons of J-10 aircrafts, and setup a good infrastructure of it, which would enable us to build spare parts for J-10, and most of its technology. J-10C is actually Super J-10 and i bet it is not that bad.

Thurst rate of J-10C would be 1.19:1 thats highest it could get.



This means it is possible that J-10C would have a super cruise ability. 





> China working on 'Super-10' advanced fighter
> 
> *By Henry Ivanov* _JDW Correspondent_
> *Moscow*
> 
> China is developing an advanced version of the Chengdu Aircraft Industrial Corporation (CAC) J-10 multirole fighter aircraft, referred to as the Super-10, with a more powerful engine, thrust-vector control, stronger airframe and passive phased-array radar, according to Russian sources.
> 
> Russian Aircraft Corporation MiG (RSK-MiG) specialists, contracted to provide technical assistance to Chinese design houses, said the enhancement to the J-10 airframe is a logical step, since the fighter was initially intended to have the compact Pratt&Whitney PW1120 engine that powered the Israeli Lavi aircraft, which served as a basis for the J-10.
> 
> However, the imposition of US export restrictions forced the decision to install the 20 per cent heavier Russian AL-31FN engine, which requires a larger intake as it needs 40 per cent more air flow.
> 
> In late 2005 China placed a USD300 million order for a second batch of AL-31FN engines; these are a derivative of the Su-27's AL-31F for single-engine aircraft, with a lower positioning of the gearbox. At first, it was believed the contract was for the same engines as in the first batch of 54 units supplied in 2001-02 and installed into development prototypes and initial production J-10s. However, AL-31FN-maker Moscow Machine Production Plant (MMPP) Salyut in December 2005 revealed the order to be for the AL-31FN M1, which is claimed to be a new AL-31FN production standard.
> 
> The company's general manager, Yuri Eliseyev, said the new engine was purposely developed for what he referred to as the "Chinese Super-10 fighter". Four such engines have been seen assembled at MMPP Salyut's Moscow production site. One of these has been demonstrated undergoing fire testing, during which its swivel nozzle was deflected up/down and sideways at full power and reheated thrust.
> 
> http://www.janes.com/defence/air_forces/news/jdw/jdw060109_2_n.shtml


----------



## Quwa

Kaiser said:


> Well for all you monkey F-16 supporters I see how un-educated you people really are
> 
> *PAKISTAN DECIDES TO DELAY F-16 WITH THE U.S.*
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/8924.html
> 
> http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?NewsID=1054546
> 
> There will be more news on this in the next couple of hours


Dude, trust me - blain2 and me are the last people you would want to call "monkies"; the one us alone alone has contributed 10,000 posts on three different forums. And please, do NOT get me started on pie throwing - because a lot of people here KNOW that if I wanted to; I could throw a pie filled with shaving cream and after shave a long - LONG way. 

Your news sources range from greenie/hippie/druggie sites to Indian news; would you trust ANYONE of them to report on a conservative Pakistani government? Use your common sence Yoda.



> In 5-10 Year China will have already finished developement of the J-10C which is expected to be on par with the latest fighters in the world at that time. If US has sanctioned us 3 times dont you think they would do It again? Right know the terms that US says pakistan has to agree to, to buy the F-16's are


In five to ten years eh? Well sure the Chinese can come up with good stuff by then; but even so, the ECM/EW systems, ammunition, etc, would still not be as good as American or European. The Chinese still need - quite simply - more time, money and effort; not to mention the fact that it will take another 10-15 years IN ADDITION to the 5-10 development years for them to equip their forces!


> -US personals would be on PAF bases at all time to make sure PAF doesnt meddle witht he aircraft
> -F-16 will not come with EW systems
> -F-16's will not be able to detect NATO fighters (seems suspicious doesnt it)
> -F-16's are not to be customized or upgraded in anyway
> - US will install special system to turn off F-16 radar and systems at anytime it wishes


1) The reason why the U.S is sending personnel to Pakistan is because the PAF NEEDS them in order to INTEGRATE the F-16s into its forces. In the 1950s and 1960s the PAF needed American personnels to ease the induction processes of the F-86, B-57 and F-104. In the 1980s the PAF needed Americans to help ease the induction of the F-16A/Bs; and it will need the Americans for the current F-16s. Its standard procedure for ALL countries who deal with the Americans - Pakistan is not being singled out for God's sake. The PAF needs American personnel for training and what not; standard procedure, of course i-brothers (idiots and Indians) will always need to blow things out of proportion. 

2) What the hell would INDIA be doing with NATO IFF codes? WHO do you think implants these IFF codes onto fighters; IFF codes are what Air Forces use to distinguish between friend and foe. It would be the PAF which implants the IFF codes; and the F-16 is a NATO FIGHTER. As for the IAF's Mirage 2000 - well they are 20 years old and have no relation to their French NATO counterparts . BTW, how do you think the Turks and Greek use their F-16s and Mirage 2000s to lock onto themselves? What about the Saudis, UAE, Israel, etc, etc, etc? 

3) I do not think one will need to UPGRADE the F-16C/D Block 52+ (+ stands for PLUS btw) in any way since it has already reached its best form! 


> - US will install special system to turn off F-16 radar and systems at anytime it wishes


...and that will stop Pakistan from shipping/sending F-16 technology to China how????

There probably are many - MANY more ridiculous statements to be made by the I-brothers; but fact remains that - the F-16s are today the PAF's best option. The models the PAF is getting are the latest available with regards to the PAF's finance range; the weapons PAF is getting for them are among the best in the world - AIM-120C5, JDAM, etc. And as of recent news - the Pakistani gov't is pushing for two new things in this F-16 deal; 1) a heavy - HEAVY discount, 2) DRFM - which will make our F-16s theoretically invinsible to enemy ECM/EW systems.


----------



## Neo

Kaiser said:


> Well for all you monkey F-16 supporters I see how un-educated you people really are


 
Kaiser,

Kill the message, not the messenger!
Please avoid name calling or personal insult.
Thanks!

http://www.pakistaniforces.com/forums/announcement.php?f=20


----------



## blain2

Kaiser said:


> Well for all you monkey F-16 supporters I see how un-educated you people really are
> 
> *PAKISTAN DECIDES TO DELAY F-16 WITH THE U.S.*
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/8924.html
> 
> http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?NewsID=1054546
> 
> There will be more news on this in the next couple of hours
> 
> 
> 
> In 5-10 Year China will have already finished developement of the J-10C which is expected to be on par with the latest fighters in the world at that time. If US has sanctioned us 3 times dont you think they would do It again? Right know the terms that US says pakistan has to agree to, to buy the F-16's are
> 
> -US personals would be on PAF bases at all time to make sure PAF doesnt meddle witht he aircraft
> -F-16 will not come with EW systems
> -F-16's will not be able to detect NATO fighters (seems suspicious doesnt it)
> -F-16's are not to be customized or upgraded in anyway
> - US will install special system to turn off F-16 radar and systems at anytime it wishes
> 
> And there are many more



Kaiser,

Please refrain from using incorrect recyled trash about the F-16s. 


> US personals would be on PAF bases at all time to make sure PAF doesnt meddle witht he aircraft.


 
What do you think we did when we acquired F-104s, F-86s, Mirages, F-6s, F-7s and F-16s? Do you think the respective countries did not place their personnel on the PAF bases? PAF has had blk 15s for 23 years now, going by that rate, do you think USAF personnel will stay in Pakistan until 2040 to babysit the blk52s? I could drop a lot of history on you about the way Pakistani armed forces deal with foreign military personnel involved in oversight, but I will skip it to keep things brief.



> F-16 will not come with EW systems



What do you think these ALQ-184, 187 and 178 pods on the F-16s are for? They must be for typing up emails  News flash!, our 23 year old F-16 blk 15s have ALQ-131 electronic warfare pods which were the most modern ones deployed in south Asia until the mid 90s.



> F-16's will not be able to detect NATO fighters (seems suspicious doesnt it)



So do you think that with our current threat library, PAF F-16s were unable to see any of the other NATO aircraft during Anatolean Eagle exercises against the USAF, TuAF, ADA, & Italian AF? I guess had that been the case, we would have preferred to stay in Pakistan.... ...Man these things are laughable....US provided us appropriate threat libraries 23 years ago, but suddenly they think that new F-16 blk52s should not be able to detect a piece of **** (already being phased out by ADA) Mirage 2000. Give me a break!!!



> F-16's are not to be customized or upgraded in anyway



Ok np! What do you need to customize and upgrade?? The package being acquired ensures that the aircraft stay current for the next decade at least. Big whoop they wont provide us wiring for free-fall atomic bombs, but who cares? We have more than enough capability built into the existing F-16s, even Mirages and then the BM program where we could care less.



> US will install special system to turn off F-16 radar and systems at anytime it wishes



Let me know when this technology becomes available....maybe connect a modem to the F-16s and have it transmit the system off at 9.6 baud rate...


----------



## Quwa

blain2 said:


> Let me know when this technology becomes available....maybe connect a modem to the F-16s and have it transmit the system off at 9.6 baud rate...


yaar blain, when this technology is available - can you hook me up with too? I need it for my car.  BTW, the IAF still hasn't upgraded their MiG-29 and Mirage 2000s' ECM/EW systems; thus meaning, our F-16A/Bs are still very modern in South Asia.


----------



## wangrui961

blain2 said:


> Well no offense, but I am glad that you are not the president
> 
> The call on the F-16 was made after evaluating all options. The EF-2K and Rafale are just as sanctions-prone as the F-16s have the potential to be.
> 
> JF-17 would take another 5-10 years to become as good as the blk 52 F-16 (Chinese simply do not have the technical knowhow at this time to even make the J-10 equal to blk52 so PAF cannot keep on waiting...its a matter of carpe diem for the PAF b/c if we do not buy the blk 52s, we would be eating IAF's dust).



dare India?:flag: :flag:


----------



## blain2

Mark Sien said:


> yaar blain, when this technology is available - can you hook me up with too? I need it for my car.  BTW, the IAF still hasn't upgraded their MiG-29 and Mirage 2000s' ECM/EW systems; thus meaning, our F-16A/Bs are still very modern in South Asia.



I agree. In the sub-continental context, even the ALQ-131 EW pods will cause problems for Indian air defence.....the M2Ks that the IAF flyes, PAF evaluated those and then 2 more iterations after that and found all three to be less than capable in terms of EW/ECM suites. MKI has some decent stuff but in general this is something that you do not compare between aircraft, rather you have to look at their effectiveness against emitters and radars typically deployed by the other side...as things stand, there is a lot of obsolete air defence stuff in both countries. Even an older pod with the capabilities of ALQ-131 would be fairly well off.


----------



## MOO

*Pakistan puts off signing F-16 deal with US*

*Press Trust of India
Islamabad, September 22, 2006|18:20 IST*  
    


*Pakistan has put off signing the letter of acceptance (LOA) for purchase of 36 F-16 fighters from the US after complaints from its air force that the planes were "bereft" of vital electronic warfare systems.

After the complaints, Pakistan's Ministry of Defence asked the US Secretary of Air Force International Affairs, (SAIFA), which is the coordinator and supervisor for the project, to extend the signing of LOA until December 31, Pakistani weekly Friday Times reported.*

The last extension was sought on July 31 this year.

The deal was apparently deferred partly due to conditions imposed by the US on the operations of F-16s and the "absence" of vital electronic capabilities from these platforms.

Musharraf was expected to take up these issues when he meets President George W Bush in Washington on Friday.

*"So the signing deal is off. Perhaps President Musharraf will try to extract some concessions during his meeting with Bush.

But the entire deal is likely to spark much more debate and change before finalisation," the weekly quoted a Pakistani official as saying.

According to the report, the F-16s were being offered without EW programme capabilities for their Radar Warning Receiver (RWR).

"This means that they will have pre-installed threat library and its RWR will only be able to identify Non-NATO aircraft," it quoted an expert as saying.

"Any NATO aircraft attacking these F-16s using Beyond Visual Range (BVR) capability could take them out easily simply because these F-16s would not know when they would be locked in sight of the attacking adversary and hence would be unable to take evasive measure," he said.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/7598_1803336,000500020000.htm*


----------



## MOO

> Pakistani weekly Friday Times reported that Pakistan has decided to postponed signing the letter of acceptance (LOA) for purchase of 36 F-16s after complains from its Air Force.
> 
> The PAF is unhappy that the F-16s were being offered without EW programme capabilities for their Radar Warning Receiver (RWR).
> 
> This means that they will have pre-installed threat library and its RWR will only be able to identify Non-NATO aircraft. When attacked by NATO aircraft, the F-16s are defenseless.



Uh oh. No point in buying those F16's if it doesn't have modern EW capabilities, a Su-30 can lock onto that F16 and the pilot would have no idea whatsoever that an Araamski is heading his way. No way can the F16 defend itself, this is bad. 

These F16's cannot even fight back against Nato aircrafts, hm how can it defend itself from India if they option for Rafales or the Super Hornet? What a farken Ripoff!  

Time to hop onto the EU bandwagon and go for Gripens or Typhoons! Whose with me on this one?


----------



## Owais

MOO said:


> *Pakistan puts off signing F-16 deal with US*
> 
> *Press Trust of India*
> *Islamabad, September 22, 2006|18:20 IST*
> 
> 
> 
> *Pakistan has put off signing the letter of acceptance (LOA) for purchase of 36 F-16 fighters from the US after complaints from its air force that the planes were "bereft" of vital electronic warfare systems.*
> 
> *After the complaints, Pakistan's Ministry of Defence asked the US Secretary of Air Force International Affairs, (SAIFA), which is the coordinator and supervisor for the project, to extend the signing of LOA until December 31, Pakistani weekly Friday Times reported.*
> 
> The last extension was sought on July 31 this year.
> 
> The deal was apparently deferred partly due to conditions imposed by the US on the operations of F-16s and the "absence" of vital electronic capabilities from these platforms.
> 
> Musharraf was expected to take up these issues when he meets President George W Bush in Washington on Friday.
> 
> *"So the signing deal is off. Perhaps President Musharraf will try to extract some concessions during his meeting with Bush.*
> 
> *But the entire deal is likely to spark much more debate and change before finalisation," the weekly quoted a Pakistani official as saying.*
> 
> *According to the report, the F-16s were being offered without EW programme capabilities for their Radar Warning Receiver (RWR).
> 
> "This means that they will have pre-installed threat library and its RWR will only be able to identify Non-NATO aircraft," it quoted an expert as saying.
> 
> "Any NATO aircraft attacking these F-16s using Beyond Visual Range (BVR) capability could take them out easily simply because these F-16s would not know when they would be locked in sight of the attacking adversary and hence would be unable to take evasive measure," he said.
> 
> http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/7598_1803336,000500020000.htm*


*

Its a 3 days old reumour and I find no stuff like that on any pakistani media .*


----------



## Zeeshan S.

PAF isn't stupid and it doesn't really have to go for this. It has many other options. Like it has been stated again and again this deal is only for the "bang of buck". If Pakistan acquires these fighters it will not have to setup an infrastructure as it has already been placed, there will just need for some upgrades which will enhance the facilities. 

F-16s will be really good especially for Pakistan. They will be effective, modern, and will meet the PAF requirements. If we go for J-10 instead of F-16 right now then i guess we will be needing some money! Currently we are saving money in this deal and with that money we will upgrade our facilities and air defence systems, which really need to be upgraded.

J-10C can be acquired later on, and only later on unless F-16 deal fails to meet the PAF requirements, and until then J-10C will also be ready for productions and will be done from testing.


----------



## Neo

*Pakistan negotiating F-16 deal terms *

*ISLAMABAD *_(updated on: September 26, 2006, 22:07 PST_): Pakistan is negotiating over strict conditions attached by the United States to a proposed multi-billion dollar deal to supply the Pakistani air force with F-16 warplanes, defence officials said on Tuesday.

The Bush administration formally notified Congress on June 28 of plans to sell Pakistan up to 36 new "Fighting Falcon" warplanes, and the formal sale agreement was expected to have been signed by end-August.

The proposed sale had included upgrades for Pakistan's fleet of 34 earlier model F-16s and a support package for up to 26 refurbished F-16s that Pakistan may eventually buy.

"Negotiations are on and once the details are sorted out, further progress will be made," Air Commodore Sarfaraz Ahmed Khan, spokesman of for the Pakistan Air Force, said.

Washington has demanded what it calls unprecedented steps to stop the technology of the advanced F-16s, their spare parts and munitions from falling into the hands of third countries -- notably China, which has close military ties to Pakistan.

John Hillen, the Assistant Secretary of State for political-military affairs, told Congress on July 20 the United States had also proposed that F-16 flights outside Pakistani air space, including for exercises with other countries, must be approved by the US government in advance.

Hillen said the transfer of technology safeguards inserted in the contract were "unprecedented".

Lockheed Martin Corp builds the F-16, but Boeing Co., Raytheon Co, Northrop-Gumman Corp and General Electric Co., are other principal contractors involved in the deal.

Hillen, in his testimony to the House of Representatives' International Relations Committee, also disclosed that the United States was withholding unspecified technologies "that would usually go with an F-16," including ones that would let it "be used in offensive ways to penetrate air space of another country that was highly defended".

Air Chief, Air Chief Marshal, Tanvir Mahmood Khan, said in an interview with The News daily last Friday: "We are quite satisfied with the current F-16 proposal."

"Notwithstanding the ongoing F-16 negotiations, every aircraft deal has preconditions. Mostly these pertain to restrictions on transfer of technology, more akin to copyright laws," he added.

Though the air force spokesperson did not specify the terms and conditions under negotiation, other officials, speaking on condition of anonymity, suggested more talking was needed on the conditions set by Washington before Pakistan is fully satisfied.

In his testimony Hillen highlighted that Pakistan's F-16 fleet and its munitions would be segregated from aircraft supplied by other countries, so that unauthorised engineers could not get access to the US planes.

He also said US personnel would carry out inventories of the F-16s and their associated systems every six months.

Link: Pakistan negotiating F-16 deal terms


----------



## MOO

> *Hillen, in his testimony to the House of Representatives' International Relations Committee, also disclosed that the United States was withholding unspecified technologies "that would usually go with an F-16," including ones that would let it "be used in offensive ways to penetrate air space of another country that was highly defended".
> 
> Air Chief, Air Chief Marshal, Tanvir Mahmood Khan, said in an interview with The News daily last Friday: "We are quite satisfied with the current F-16 proposal."*



Lack of modern EW equipment and ECM pods. It's like having someone offer you an F-22 Stealth fighter, but without the stealth. In this case these F16's that Pakistan will be negotiating on will be downgraded and handicap to fight a modern war. Hopefully they can reason with each othe for a better deal.

By the way let's not jump the J-10 bandwagon to soon. It still needs alot of improvement before China decides to export them. The avionics is still lacking, EW/ECM capabilities is nonexistent at the moment and an independent engine is still yet to be done. If China decided to export its J-10 to the global markets, the Russian engines will not be allowed though, it's part of the contract. Going to have to wait a little while until WS-10 engines to succeed.


----------



## MOO

*Pakistan negotiating conditions attached to F-16 deal*
*
Sep 26, 2006 Ã¢â¬â By Arshad Sharif* 

*[Oh boy, first it was 26 New F16's to now being 26 used models to be purchase..things are getting much more worst by the day.]*


ISLAMABAD (Reuters) - Pakistan is negotiating over strict conditions attached by the United States to a proposed multi-billion dollar deal to supply the Pakistani air force with F-16 warplanes, defense officials said on Tuesday.

The Bush administration formally notified Congress on June 28 of plans to sell Pakistan up to 36 new "Fighting Falcon" warplanes, and the formal sale agreement was expected to have been signed by end-August.

The proposed sale had included upgrades for Pakistan's fleet of 34 earlier model F-16s and a support package for up to 26 refurbished F-16s that Pakistan may eventually buy.

"Negotiations are on and once the details are sorted out, further progress will be made," Air Commodore Sarfaraz Ahmed Khan, spokesman of for the Pakistan Air Force, said.

Washington has demanded what it calls unprecedented steps to stop the technology of the advanced F-16s, their spare parts and munitions from falling into the hands of third countries Ã¢â¬â notably China, which has close military ties to Pakistan.

John Hillen, the Assistant Secretary of State for political-military affairs, told Congress on July 20 the United States had also proposed that F-16 flights outside Pakistani air space, including for exercises with other countries, must be approved by the U.S. government in advance.

Hillen said the transfer of technology safeguards inserted in the contract were "unprecedented."

Lockheed Martin Corp builds the F-16, but Boeing Co., Raytheon Co, Northrop-Gumman Corp and General Electric Co., are other principal contractors involved in the deal.

Hillen, in his testimony to the House of Representatives' International Relations Committee, also disclosed that the United States was withholding unspecified technologies "that would usually go with an F-16," including ones that would let it "be used in offensive ways to penetrate air space of another country that was highly defended."

Pakistan's Air Chief, Air Chief Marshal, Tanvir Mahmood Khan, said in an interview with The News daily last Friday: "We are quite satisfied with the current F-16 proposal."

"Notwithstanding the ongoing F-16 negotiations, every aircraft deal has preconditions. Mostly these pertain to restrictions on transfer of technology, more akin to copyright laws," he added.

Though the air force spokesperson did not specify the terms and conditions under negotiation, other officials, speaking on condition of anonymity, suggested more talking was needed on the conditions set by Washington before Pakistan is fully satisfied.

In his testimony Hillen highlighted that Pakistan's F-16 fleet and its munitions would be segregated from aircraft supplied by other countries, so that unauthorized engineers could not get access to the U.S. planes.

He also said U.S. personnel would carry out inventories of the F-16s and their associated systems every six months.

http://www.abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=2493160&page=1


----------



## sigatoka

Mark Sien said:


> but fact remains that - the F-16s are today the PAF's best option. The models the PAF is getting are the latest available with regards to the PAF's finance range; the weapons PAF is getting for them are among the best in the world - AIM-120C5, JDAM, etc. And as of recent news - the Pakistani gov't is pushing for two new things in this F-16 deal; 1) a heavy - HEAVY discount, 2) DRFM - which will make our F-16s theoretically invinsible to enemy ECM/EW systems.


 
These heavily compromised planes may be PAF's best option but not necessarily Pakistan's best option. If these reports are true, it is a disgrace that all that Pak. has done is repayed in such a way. Pak. does have other options, firstly it could procure the FC-1 in greater numbers, it could procure and manufacture more surface to air missiles, it could improve the quality of ground forces and so on and so forth. 

The point im driving is this, there is substitutability between F-16's and lower quality jets, between F-16's and more tanks, bet. F-16's and better and more surface 2 air missiles. It is better to not buy these compromised planes and instead use the resources for more FC-1's, more Al-Khalid tanks, more surface to air missiles. 

The F-16's did not enable Israel to achieve victory in Lebanon and a compromised F-16 will be even less useful.


----------



## Quwa

MOO said:


> *Pakistan negotiating conditions attached to F-16 deal*
> *
> Sep 26, 2006 Ã¢â¬â By Arshad Sharif*
> 
> *[Oh boy, first it was 26 New F16's to now being 26 used models to be purchase..things are getting much more worst by the day.]*
> 
> 
> ISLAMABAD (Reuters) - Pakistan is negotiating over strict conditions attached by the United States to a proposed multi-billion dollar deal to supply the Pakistani air force with F-16 warplanes, defense officials said on Tuesday.
> 
> The Bush administration formally notified Congress on June 28 of plans to sell Pakistan up to 36 new "Fighting Falcon" warplanes, and the formal sale agreement was expected to have been signed by end-August.
> 
> The proposed sale had included upgrades for Pakistan's fleet of 34 earlier model F-16s and a support package for up to 26 refurbished F-16s that Pakistan may eventually buy.
> 
> http://www.abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=2493160&page=1


I am honestly not sure whether I should attack your ignorance for not reading the DSCA articles; or to attack you for your current reading disabilities. The article you posted CLEARLY says that the deal involves 36 new built F-16s and 26 used F-16s plus upgrade modules for the PAF's current F-16s.


----------



## Chukkar

Mark Sien said:


> yaar blain, when this technology is available - can you hook me up with too? I need it for my car.  BTW, the IAF still hasn't upgraded their MiG-29 and Mirage 2000s' ECM/EW systems; thus meaning, our F-16A/Bs are still very modern in South Asia.



You would be mistaken. Indian MiG-29s have new RWRs and access to the Elta 8222 SPJ, arguably one of the best SPJs in the business nowadays.
IAF Mirage 2000s have modern RWRs and have been seen with Remora SPJ's.


----------



## Shahin-e-Iqbal

Islamabad, Oct. 2 (PTI): Pakistan has signed an agreement with United States for purchase of 18 F-16 fighter jets as also for upgrading its existing fleet. 

"The on-going negotiations regarding F-16s have culminated in the signing of letter of acceptance between the Governments of Pakistan and United States of America on 30 September, 2006 at Rawalpindi," Pakistan Air Force (PAF) said in a statement today. 

"The package includes the supply of 18 new F-16s, upgraded used F-16s, upgradation of the present fleet of 32 PAF F-16s, air-to-air and air-to-ground weaponry and other support infrastructure," the statement said. 

"Subsequent to the signing of letter of acceptance, the supply of aircraft and weapons to Pakistan will take place in due course of time," it said. 

But it was not clear as to when the aircraft would be delivered. 

Commenting on the deal, Foreign Office spokesperson, Tasnim Aslam, said "this is something that was expected." 

"There was a letter of offer followed by discussion about letter of acceptance. The issues have been sorted out." 

Reports said the deal is part of a USD 5 billion arms package for Pakistan which includes an assortment of air and ground weaponry besides the F-16s. 

The deal came after Bush Administration received Congressional approval for the sale of 18 new F-16 jets to Pakistan. 

In July, the US Defence Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress that the F-16s would come with 200 Sidewinder and 500 AIM-120C5 air-to-air missiles plus 800 general purpose 2,000 and 500-pound bombs.


----------



## Shahin-e-Iqbal

here is the linkhttp://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/001200610021850.htm


----------



## Shahin-e-Iqbal

MUMBAI: A crisis has been brewing in the Indian Air Force and it's about to blow up in the face of the government. The Indian Air Force (IAF) top brass has informed the Union Government that if corrective measures are not taken immediately, India will lose its air superiority over Pakistan. 

"Unless immediate steps are taken to arrest the reduction in Indian Air Force's force levels, the nation will for the first time in its history, lose the conventional military edge over Pakistan."

This is a what the three-page letter of warning, written by Air Chief Marshall Tyagi to Defence Minister Pranab Mukherjee, says.

A copy of the letter, which has raised serious concerns over the declining combat force level of the IAF, is available with CNN-IBN.

In his letter, the Air Chief Marshall writes, "Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is being beefed up with 44 F16s from America. They have a clearly defined goal of attaining parity with the IAF. With China supplying J 10 and JF 17 aircraft (fitted with Russian engines), PAF force levels of combat squadron will increase." 

"Unless steps are taken to move ahead with procurement, the IAF's combat strength will deplete to a level, which would entirely neutralise the conventional superiority held by IAF since our Independence. PAF will have 19 to 26 squadrons by 2011-12, while the IAF could reduce to 26.5 by 2015."
http://www.thenews.com.pk/update_detail.asp?id=10468


----------



## Neo

*Pakistan, U.S. sign letter of acceptance for F-16s*

ISLAMABAD (Reuters) - Pakistan and United States have signed a letter of acceptance for a multi-billion dollar package to supply the Pakistan Air Force with F-16 warplanes, an air force spokesman said on Monday. 
A signing ceremony was held on Saturday in Rawalpindi, the northern Pakistani city were the military is headquartered, he said.

Both sides had expected to wrap up the deal a month earlier, but negotiations dragged on because of strings Washington wanted attached.

A statement issued by the Pakistan Air Force, however, did not mention what conditions were being set by the United States on use and maintenance of the planes.

It said that the United States will supply 18 new F-16 aircraft, as well as an unspecified number of upgraded second-hand F-16s. Previous reports have said the number of second hand aircraft Pakistan was considering buying was 26.

The United States will also sell Pakistan missile weaponry and other support infrastructure, and upgrade Pakistan's present fleet of 34 old-model F-16s.

Lockheed Martin Corp builds the F-16, but Boeing Co., Raytheon Co, Northrop-Gumman Corp and General Electric Co., are other principal contractors involved in the deal.

The Bush administration formally notified Congress on June 28 of plans to sell Pakistan the "Fighting Falcon" warplanes.

But it had also sought unprecedented guarantees to stop the technology of the advanced F-16s, their spare parts and munitions from falling into the hands of third countries -- notably China, which has close military ties to Pakistan.

John Hillen, the Assistant Secretary of State for political-military affairs, told Congress on July 20 the United States had, among other things, proposed that F-16 flights outside Pakistani air space, including for exercises with other countries, must be approved by the U.S. government in advance.

Hillen, in his testimony to the House of Representatives' International Relations Committee, also disclosed that the United States was withholding unspecified technologies "that would usually go with an F-16," including ones that would let it "be used in offensive ways to penetrate air space of another country that was highly defended."

In his testimony, Hillen highlighted that Pakistan's F-16 fleet and its munitions would be segregated from aircraft supplied by other countries, so that unauthorized engineers could not get access to the U.S.-made planes.

He also said U.S. personnel would carry out inventories of the F-16s and their associated systems every six months. 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061002/pl_nm/arms_pakistan_usa_dc_1


----------



## Neo

Guys,
Any news about the armament and electronic suite?
Have the differences been sorted out with Washington?


----------



## Quwa

Neo said:


> Guys,
> Any news about the armament and electronic suite?
> Have the differences been sorted out with Washington?


The weapon systems are high end - AIM-120C5 & JDAM; the only problem is DRFM, which I think will be solved by the end of this decade.


----------



## Kaiser

It has been confirmed by the ACM that the F-16 will come with everything including the ew suite, AIM-120 C5, Sidewinder (x?), and JDAMS


----------



## vijay dahiya

but when the paf will get the goddamm planes??
have u any specific date or year ?


----------



## Tajammul Khan

What about the talk of the RWR having a pre installed library and not being able to give warning if the plane is locked by nato aircraft in india case the jauguars and Mirage 2000s. 

Has this issue been resolved???


----------



## Bull

tajammulkhan@yahoo.com said:


> What about the talk of the RWR having a pre installed library and not being able to give warning if the plane is locked by nato aircraft in india case the jauguars and Mirage 2000s.
> 
> Has this issue been resolved???


 
Or probably its a ploy to make India buy the F18s.


----------



## Quwa

vijay dahiya said:


> but when the paf will get the goddamm planes??
> have u any specific date or year ?


The used F-16A/Bs can be expected to arrive before 2008; the new F-16C/Ds will likely be delivered late 2008 or early 2009 - while the rest by 2011.


> What about the talk of the RWR having a pre installed library and not being able to give warning if the plane is locked by nato aircraft in india case the jauguars and Mirage 2000s.
> 
> Has this issue been resolved???


I am not sure on why one would put a NATO-secret on a non-NATO fighter aircraft; remember, lock-on and engagement systems are part of IFFs. The Indian Air Force would be programming its aircraft with their own IFF - NOT NATO's.


----------



## blain2

tajammulkhan@yahoo.com said:


> What about the talk of the RWR having a pre installed library and not being able to give warning if the plane is locked by nato aircraft in india case the jauguars and Mirage 2000s.
> 
> Has this issue been resolved???




This was never an issue. The F-16s will come with proper IFF library and EW pods (integrated ones). The issue was the offensive capability of the EW pods. The pod that Pakistan is receiving does not have DRFM which comes in handy during offensive AOs.

Pakistan has other European options aside from the US made DRFM capability so this is not a huge issue. The primary concern was with regards to the restrictions placed on the usage of the aircraft. Those have been worked out b/w PAF and the US authorities.


----------



## KashifAsrar

*Govt goes into huddle on Pak military might *

TIMES NEWS NETWORK 

New Delhi: Barely three days after Washington and Islamabad resolved their differences over the proposed F-16 fighter package to the latter, cabinet secretary B K Chaturvedi has summoned a meeting to discuss Pakistan&#8217;s war-waging potential. 
The high-level meeting to discuss &#8216;&#8216;enhancement of Pakistan&#8217;s war capability&#8217;&#8217; and the threat it poses to India is likely to be held on Wednesday, with presentations being made to the cabinet secretary. 
Faced with a declining combat ratio with Pakistan, the armed forces have called for urgent steps to ensure that their long-standing conventional military superiority is not eroded any further. 
It&#8217;s well known that Pakistan, with the help of China and North Korea, has taken major strides in the field of nuclear weapons and missiles. Pakistan&#8217;s 750-km range Shaheen-I and 1,500-km Ghauri-I ballistic missiles, for instance, are basically derivatives of the Chinese M-9 and North Korean Nodong missiles respectively. 
The defence establishment here, of course, is also worried about the conventional edge. &#8216;&#8216;Unless immediate steps are taken to arrest the reduction in IAF&#8217;s force levels, the nation will for the first time in its history lose the conventional military edge over Pakistan,&#8217;&#8217; Air Chief Marshal S P Tyagi cautioned in a recent letter to defence minister Pranab Mukherjee. 
Similarly, Army estimates show India enjoys only a slight edge over Pakistan now. Consider this: The combat ratio during the 1971 war was 1.75:1 in India&#8217;s favour. But it declined to 1.56:1 by 1990, and now stands at only 1.22:1. 
Though the immediate provocation for the meeting is not clear, it comes after the US and Pakistan over the weekend resolved their differences over the $5-billion military package. 
Shifting Balance 
Combat Ratio (In India&#8217;s Favour) 
1971 war 
1.8:1 
1990 
1.6:1 
Now 
1.2:1 
Indian Air Force: 
Rapidly declining number of fighter squadrons 
PAF: 
More F-16s from US; JF-17 &#8216;Thunder&#8217; jets and J-10 fighters from China 
Indian Navy: 
Scorpene submarine project yet to fully kick off. 6 subs to be inducted between 2012 and 2017 
Pakistan Navy: 
Has inducted two Agosta-90B submarines, armed with Harpoon and Exocet missiles, with another on the way 




*Pak stealing India&#8217;s thunder *

New Delhi: It&#8217;s no surprise that the Army is pushing for a rapid overall modernisation drive to ensure &#8216;&#8216;credible conventional deterrence&#8217;&#8217; against Pakistan. It&#8217;s particularly worried about shortfalls in fields like self-propelled and air defence artillery guns; night-fighting capabilities and attack helicopters; weapon-locating and battlefield surveillance radars; earlywarning devices and electronic warfare systems. 
The Indian Navy, of course, enjoys much-greater superiority over its Pakistan counterpart. But it, too, is concerned about its aging submarine fleet, with the long-delayed 18,798-crore Scorpene project to construct six submarines between 2012 and 2017 only now poised to take off. Pakistan, in contrast, has already inducted two Agosta-90B submarines, built with French help and armed with Harpoon and Exocet missiles, with another one on the way. 
The package to Pakistan includes 36 or more advanced F-16s, apart from upgradation of the 32 F-16s already present in Pakistan&#8217;s combat fleet. It also includes a deadly munitions package, including beyond-visual range missiles. 
Pakistan is also on course to acquire a large number of JF-17 &#8216;Thunder&#8217; fighters jointly developed with China, apart from more J-10 fighters. 
On the other hand, as reported earlier by TOI, IAF is faced with a rapidly-depleting number of fighter squadrons (each has 12 to 18 jets). It now stands at 32-33 when the sanctioned strength is 39.5 squadrons. 
Unless India takes urgent steps to boost IAF&#8217;s combat fleet, it will deplete to 26.5 squadrons by 2015, while Pakistan is progressively adding to its existing strength of 26 squadrons. 
The IAF is worried about the delay in issuing the RFPs (request for proposals) for the $6.5-billion contract to procure 126 MRCA, for which the contenders are the Russian MiG-35, French Rafale, Swedish JAS-39 Gripen, Eurofighter Typhoon and, of course, the American F/A-18 &#8216;&#8216;Super Hornets&#8217;&#8217; and F-16 &#8216;&#8216;Falcons&#8217;&#8217;. It might take another five-six years for the actual contract to be signed and another four-five years after that for the fighter deliveries to commence.


----------



## sigatoka

I dont see how a few F-16's is going to dramatically alter the balance between the two nations. The F-16's and the addition of FC-1's is going to alter the air balance such that the gap between the two is narrowed unless the Indian's commit to acquiring at least another 50 Su-27's over next five years. 

The Indian's have wasted lot of effort, time and resources on failed projects such as their LCA and Arjun tanks while the Pak's have squeezed out every dollar from their comparable joint projects with China.


----------



## Owais

sigatoka said:


> I dont see how a few F-16's is going to dramatically alter the balance between the two nations. The F-16's and the addition of FC-1's is going to alter the air balance such that the gap between the two is narrowed unless the Indian's commit to acquiring at least another 50 Su-27's over next five years.
> .


There will be about 96 F-16s(60MLU + 36Blk52+), not few. Also, IAF has 0 su27 . right now they are looking for 126 MRCA (F-18, Mg 35, F-16).


----------



## Kaiser

Owais said:


> There will be about 96 F-16s(60MLU + 36Blk52+), not few. Also, IAF has 0 su27 . right now they are looking for 126 MRCA (F-18, Mg 35, F-16).


 

Actually PAF wants 110 F-16 on order by the end of the decade. Also you will see JF-17's and J-10 all data-linked with Eireye

If a force of 110 F-16's equiped with Sidewinder and AIM-120C5, 150 JF-17's equiped with A-Darter and SD-10, and 75 J-10 equiped with Pl-9c dont pose a threat to the IAF then I dont know what does

Also dont bring the mki into discussion since there radar threat is under conrtol thanks to the new eireyes and maybe future chinese AWAC systems


----------



## Quwa

sigatoka said:


> I dont see how a few F-16's is going to dramatically alter the balance between the two nations. The F-16's and the addition of FC-1's is going to alter the air balance such that the gap between the two is narrowed unless the Indian's commit to acquiring at least another 50 Su-27's over next five years.


Well even with the JF-17s, F-16s and J-10s the IAF will still retain its edge; however it will not be the recognizable edge it has today. For the basics, the PAF will have BVR and WVR+HMS capability; as well as precision-guided air-to-surface and datalink capability. Then on the more important scale - Pakistan's geographical size gives the PAF deeper concentration than the IAF would have in India. With all the same capabilities and technology as IAF - there is very little chance that the IAF would gain substantial air superiority in Pakistan.


----------



## EagleEyes

The deal is finally signed.



> *Pakistan-U.S. concludes F-16s deal*
> 
> Pakistan and the United States have concluded the much-publicized deal of F-16 fighter planes, the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) said on Monday.
> 
> "The ongoing negotiations regarding F-16s have culminated in the signing of letter of acceptance between the governments of Pakistan and United States of America on 30 September, 2006 at Rawalpindi," a PAF statement said.
> 
> "The package includes the supply of 18 new F-16s, upgraded used F-16s, up-gradation of the present Fleet of PAF F-16s, air to air and air to ground weaponry and other support infrastructure," the statement said.
> 
> "Subsequent to the signing of letter of acceptance, the supply of aircraft and weapons to Pakistan will take place in due course of time," it said.
> Reports said that the deal is part of a 5 billion U.S. dollars arms package for Pakistan which includes F-16 fighter jets and an assortment of air and ground weaponry.
> 
> The Bush administration has received congressional approval for selling 18 new F-16 jets to Pakistan.
> 
> http://english.people.com.cn/200610/03/eng20061003_308389.html


----------



## sigatoka

Mark Sien said:


> With all the same capabilities and technology as IAF - there is very little chance that the IAF would gain substantial air superiority in Pakistan.


 
There is no chance of the IAF attaining airsuperiority over Pak. territory with these new additions. However unless the PAF is silly enough in conflict to try and hit Indian targets within India they should do quite well. 

However the problem remains that with the large gulf in land forces particulary in artillery that the PAF might be forced to conduct too much ground attack at the expense of primary role of airdefence and hence suffer high attrition. 

What Pak. military needs is more self propelled artillery to free the PAF to focus more on air defence without undue concern.


----------



## Kaiser

sigatoka said:


> There is no chance of the IAF attaining airsuperiority over Pak. territory with these new additions. However unless the PAF is silly enough in conflict to try and hit Indian targets within India they should do quite well.
> 
> However the problem remains that with the large gulf in land forces particulary in artillery that the PAF might be forced to conduct too much ground attack at the expense of primary role of airdefence and hence suffer high attrition.
> 
> What Pak. military needs is more self propelled artillery to free the PAF to focus more on air defence without undue concern.


 
True we can prob build pl-45 sp artillery under liscense from china but I think right know the govt is more focused on the AF and Navy. Dont forget we also have alot of BM's and cruise missiles. PA's doctrine of artillery use is much different from that of the IA in which we require more mobile artillery pieces


----------



## sigatoka

Kaiser said:


> Dont forget we also have alot of BM's and cruise missiles.


 
Cruise missiles and Ballistic missiles are very poor substitutes for Artillery. Ballistic missiles are close to useless when armed with conventional warhead and contrary to your claim there are very few Babur's that would actually be in service as of now. 

More attack helicopters might be useful but they are very expensive and would have to be imported when artillery can be produced domestically.


----------



## Kaiser

sigatoka said:


> Cruise missiles and Ballistic missiles are very poor substitutes for Artillery. Ballistic missiles are close to useless when armed with conventional warhead and contrary to your claim there are very few Babur's that would actually be in service as of now.
> 
> More attack helicopters might be useful but they are very expensive and would have to be imported when artillery can be produced domestically.


 

Pakistan last year said it would start mass producing the babur which it prob already has. CM are very easier to make than BM's and also alot cheaper.

Yes pakistan artillery division is in a ok state but needs to be better this can only be done with the procurement of more 110 and 155mm guns and pl-45 sp guns under liscense production


----------



## Iceman2

aoa,
i want to know what is the version of radar is it APG-68(V)9 if so then what is the range and other speecifications??????
Allah Hafiz


----------



## Quwa

Iceman said:


> aoa,
> i want to know what is the version of radar is it APG-68(V)9 if so then what is the range and other speecifications??????
> Allah Hafiz


The radar is APG-68(V9); unfortunately I cannot find any specs - maybe someone else can.


----------



## Iceman2

i needed to know abt the specifications can anyone help!


----------



## Neo

*Performance of Flight-testing of Apg-68(v9):*

Performance Flight-Testing of Updated Radar Under Way for Lockheed Martin F-16; New Technology Expected to Significantly Increase Radar Performance 

FORT WORTH, Texas, June 25 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- The U.S. Air Force
has begun flight-testing a new version of the radar for the Lockheed Martin
F-16C/D aircraft that will significantly improve the aircraft's performance in
air-to-air and air-to-ground operations.

The F-16 is built by Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Co., a business area of
Lockheed Martin Corp. (NYSE: LMT).

The Northrop Grumman APG-68(V)9 radar, the latest version of the F-16C/D radar, is being flight tested at Edwards Air Force Base, Calif., and thus far, is meeting or exceeding all of its performance specifications.

Changes to this new version are considered more significant than all
previous upgrades combined, both in terms of magnitude and capability. There are significant improvements in detection range, resolution, growth potential, and supportability. Furthermore, application of advanced processing
techniques enhances the radar's ability to operate in dense electromagnetic
environments and resist jamming.

"The APG-68(V)9 radar is a defining feature of the advanced Block 50/52
F-16 version," said John L. Bean, vice president of F-16 Programs. "We are
pleased with the radar's development progress to date and think the customers receiving it will thoroughly appreciate its performance and features."

The improved air-to-air capabilities and features of the V9 radar compared
to the current V7/8 production versions include:

-- 30 percent increase in detection range
-- Improvements in false alarm rate and mutual interference
-- Four versus two tracked targets in the Situation Awareness mode
(a search-while-track mode)
-- Larger search volume and improved track performance in Track While
Scan mode
-- Improved track performance in Single Target Track mode.

Air-to-ground improvements include:

-- Two-foot resolution in new Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR) mode
-- Increased detection range in Sea Surveillance mode
-- Improved target detection and map quality in Ground Moving Target
Indication mode.


The new radar takes advantage of current commercial off-the-shelf (COTS) technology, both hardware and software, which provides a 5X increase in processing speed and 10X increase in memory compared to the current APG-68 production radar. In addition to the new and expanded radar capabilities, the capacity of the new processors provides large growth potential.

This technology is expected to provide a 50 percent increase in radar
reliability to nearly 400 hours mean time between failure. Use of COTS also
resolves existing issues with availability and cost of repair parts, commonly
referred to as Diminishing Manufacturing Sources.

The radar features an inertial measurement unit (IMU) on the radar
antenna, as required for the SAR capability. The IMU also improves dynamic
tracking performance and provides an "auto-boresight" capability. The latter
improves antenna pointing accuracy in general and eliminates the need for
time-consuming mechanical boresighting maintenance.

"The improved capabilities of the (V)9 radar will greatly enhance the
mission effectiveness of the F-16," said Major Jim Dutton, (V)9 radar project
pilot with the 416th Flight Test Squadron at Edwards Air Force Base.

Northrop Grumman is under contract to Lockheed Martin Aeronautics to
develop and produce the V9 radar. Development testing of the radar began in
July 2001 on Northrop Grumman's flying test bed, a modified BAC1-11, at its
facilities in Baltimore, Md. This testing will continue through 2003 to
include some staged improvements.

F-16 APG-68(V)9 radar integration testing, being conducted at Edwards AFB by the F-16 Combined Test Force, began in December 2001 and will continue for several customers through 2003. Initial F-16 flight testing is being
performed on a modified Block 50 F-16C belonging to Greece.

As of the end of May, 18 flights and 29 flight hours of radar testing have
been accomplished on the F-16. SAR testing on the BAC1-11 is going well, and SAR integration and requirements verification testing will be conducted on an F-16 starting in July and completing this fall.

The first production V9 radar, delivered in April 2002, will be installed
in the first Greece Block 52+ F-16, which is scheduled to deliver in October
2002.

The F-16, the world's most sought-after fighter, is the choice of
22 countries. More than 4,000 aircraft have been delivered, hundreds more are on order for the United States and six other countries, and production is
expected to continue beyond 2010. Major upgrades for all F-16 versions are
being incorporated to keep the fleet modern and fully supportable over the
aircraft's long service life.

The F-16 is playing a major role as the durable and versatile "workhorse"
in allied peacekeeping operations in the Balkans and Iraq. The F-16 is a key
player in Operation Noble Eagle, homeland air defense of the United States,
and is participating in Operation Enduring Freedom in the war on terrorism in
Afghanistan.

Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Co., headquartered in Fort Worth, Texas, is a
leader in the design, development, systems integration, production, and
support of advanced military aircraft and related technologies. Its customers
include the military services of the United States and allied countries
throughout the world. Products include the F-16, F-22, F-35 JSF, F-117, C-5, C-27J, C-130, P-3, and U-2.

Lockheed Martin Corp., headquartered in Bethesda, Md., is a global
enterprise principally engaged in the research, design, development,
manufacture, and integration of advanced technology systems, products, and
services. Employing about 125,000 people worldwide, Lockheed Martin had 2001
sales of $24 billion.

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/06-25-2002/0001753646&EDATE=


----------



## Iceman2

thanx for information!


----------



## Neo

*Northrop to build radar systems for F-16s *

WASHINGTON: November 16, 2006: Northrop Grumman Corp. has won a $100 million deal to provide 54 fire control radar systems for F-16 fighter jets the US government is selling to Pakistan, the US Air Force said on Wednesday.

It said Northrop would supply the AN/APG-68 radar systems for the Lockheed Martin Corp.-built F-16s by May 2010.

Pakistan and United States last month signed a letter of acceptance for the weapons deal, which includes 18 new F-16s and an unspecified number of second-hand aircraft.


----------



## imiakhtar

does anyon eone know what digital radio frequency memory is?


----------



## TexasJohn

imiakhtar said:


> does anyon eone know what digital radio frequency memory is?



Short answer..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_radio_frequency_memory


----------



## EagleEyes

I wonder how good the AN/APG-68(V)9 radar is, is it any good comparing with the AESA radar advantages? Its been sometime, since i have studied the radar systems, though for sure it gives some advantages to our new F-16s when comparing with the older APG-68 radars.



> The AN/APG-68 is an advanced pulse-Doppler radar with increased range, more modes and better resolution compared to the APG-66 radar. The F-16C/D Block 25 were the first Fighting Falcon aircraft to be equipped with the advanced APG-68.
> 
> _The AN/APG-68(V)9 is the latest development of the APG-68 radar family featuring 33% improvement in air-to-air detection range, reduced ownership costs and synthetic aperture radar (SAR) mode. SAR enables high-resolution ground mapping for 24-hour, all-weather precision strike capability._


----------



## Iceman2

i wanted to know when will we receive our f-16s? i heard that second hand f-16 would be landing in pakistan in 7-8 months is that so? and when will we recieve new f-16s?


----------



## Iceman2

wanted to know when will we receive our f-16s? i heard that second hand f-16 would be landing in pakistan in 7-8 months is that so? and when will we recieve new f-16s?



anyone plzzz reply


----------



## Owais

*Tusas Aerospace Industries to upgrade Pakistani F-16s*

November 23, 2006 (by Lieven Dewitte) - Turkish Defense Minister Vecdi Gonul was in Pakistan attending the IDEAS 2006 Defense Industry Fair where he met with Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf on Tuesday. 
Gonul said that they had agreed on a deal to upgrade and modernize Pakistan's F-16 fighters. 

The Turkish Tusas Aerospace Industries (TAI) will handle the work.

TUSAS is an acronym which stands for Tusas Ucak Sanayii AS, or Turkish Aircraft Industries, which is a company owned jointly by Turkish and American shareholders.

According to the Pakistani Daily Times Pakistan Air Chief Air Marshal Rashad Kaleem recently said that the US will begin providing new F-16 jet fighters to Pakistan from December 2008 onwards, and would provide all by 2009-end.

http://www.f-16.net/news_article2063.html


----------



## Iceman2

okkk thanx but i heard that use f-16s would be provided within 7-8 months


----------



## Neo

I'm confused here. Earlier it was reported that PAF would take early delivery of the embargoed 28 block 15 F-16A/B which are in storage in US.
These birds were to have MLU-III by the manufacturer and handed over to PAF in 2007. :read:


----------



## Zeeshan S.

I guess the used F-16s will be handed over to PAF in 2007. We have already recieved 2 of them in December 2005. 

The upgrades for our existing F-16s with Turkey will go through in 2007.

The new F-16s will be coming in 2008-09.

I hope it helps.


----------



## Janbaz

Zeeshan S. said:


> I guess the used F-16s will be handed over to PAF in 2007. We have already recieved 2 of them in December 2005.
> 
> The upgrades for our existing F-16s with Turkey will go through in 2007.
> 
> The new F-16s will be coming in 2008-09.
> 
> I hope it helps.




The embargoed ones, if i am not mistaken are stored in Texas and just need MLU's to be handed over. The block 52's though shall be new i think.


----------



## Owais

Janbaz said:


> The embargoed ones, if i am not mistaken are stored in Texas and just need MLU's to be handed over. The block 52's though shall be new i think.



28 Pakistani AF F-16A/B aircraft was stored there out of which 2 have already been delivered and 26 remaining Peace Gate III/IV aircraft will also be upgraded to MLU standards:flag: .


----------



## Adux

The Aim-120c's, ECM package and New Block 52 F-16's havent been cleared by the congress, cuz pakistani government hasnt allowed the aircraft makers to table them. This because of a lot of tags being kept US which the pakistani establishment has refused to accept, Talks are goin on, lIt will be solved


----------



## KashifAsrar

> I guess the used F-16s will be handed over to PAF in 2007. We have already recieved 2 of them in December 2005.
> 
> The upgrades for our existing F-16s with Turkey will go through in 2007.
> 
> The new F-16s will be coming in 2008-09.
> 
> I hope it helps.


It is too late! Pakistan was expected to get the deliveries of these aircrafts sooner. It seems that a lot of internal politics is going on in defense department. I doubt, that if this is the case then Pakistan would ever be able to acquire these birds!
Kashif


----------



## genmirajborgza786

even i think that by the end of 2008 the very high chance of a decomacrat govt coming to to washington may jeopordize the deal no matter what its the ground realaties at the end of the the f-16s are not ours till all of them mlu's/block 56's combined are deliverd to pakistan on the ground there will be very high risk of washington stopping it as the saying goes you dont have it till you dont get it IMHO.


----------



## blain2

Adux said:


> The Aim-120c's, ECM package and New Block 52 F-16's havent been cleared by the congress, cuz pakistani government hasnt allowed the aircraft makers to table them. This because of a lot of tags being kept US which the pakistani establishment has refused to accept, Talks are goin on, lIt will be solved



It has all been cleared. This happened about 3 months ago. Here is a tidbit about the AMRAAMS:

Raytheon Awarded Pakistani Contract
Raytheon Co., Tucson, Ariz., is being awarded a $269,646,834 firm-fixed-price contract modification. This action is exercising an option to purchase 500 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM)
Air Vehicles (AAVs) Air Intercept Missile (AIM) &#8211; 120C-5 missiles and rehost. This effort supports foreign military sales to Pakistan 100%. At this time, total funds have been obligated. This work will be complete April 2011. Headquarters Medium Range Missile Systems Group, Eglin Air Force Base, Fla., is the contracting activity


----------



## falcone

The embargoed F-16s are stored in Arizona.


----------



## Adux

blain2 said:


> It has all been cleared. This happened about 3 months ago.



blain 

wat about those US tags on the new technology and the talk of bugs. I am sure a lot of it is just media hype to grab headlines,


----------



## timmy

Hi guys, uploaded this brief clip on youtube about 2weeks ago about PAK's new F-16 landing in Dec 2005!


----------



## blain2

Adux said:


> blain
> 
> wat about those US tags on the new technology and the talk of bugs. I am sure a lot of it is just media hype to grab headlines,



We are not getting DRFM with the jamming pods...that is it. PAF has tabled that capability for a later acquisition.


----------



## Owais

blain2 said:


> We are not getting DRFM with the jamming pods...that is it. PAF has tabled that capability for a later acquisition.



according to my knowledge, work of DRFM will be performed by AWACs. correct me if I m wrong.


----------



## melb4aust

Owais said:


> according to my knowledge, work of DRFM will be performed by AWACs. correct me if I m wrong.



What exactly is this DRFM ?


----------



## blain2

DRFM is Digital Radio frequency Memory.

Its an active measure as part of the aircraft's ECM suite. You basically store the signals coming from the adversary's emitters and then play them back in order to "cloak" yourself under the same signals...to your adversary, it simply looks like there is nothing out there when they try to jam you.

Here is a company that produces DRFM:

http://www.korelectronics.com/asp/Site/Products/DRFM/index.asp

As you can see, US is not the only player in this field. As I mentioned earlier, PAF tabled the issue for now as this capability has an offensive purpose (to be used to blind enemy jamming during operations over their airspace) and was raising some eyebrows in the Congress. Eventually PAF will buy it from the US or third parties.....in any case, this does not impact the F-16s capability in a defensive role.


----------



## blain2

Owais said:


> according to my knowledge, work of DRFM will be performed by AWACs. correct me if I m wrong.



Well it can be, however the AEW&C platform cannot operate deep inside a contested airspace. Thus it makes sense to have this capability on combat aircraft that are undertaking strike missions or going in support of a strike package.


----------



## Shabaz Sharif

blain2 said:


> DRFM is Digital Radio frequency Memory.
> 
> Its an active measure as part of the aircraft's ECM suite. You basically store the signals coming from the adversary's emitters and then play them back in order to "cloak" yourself under the same signals...to your adversary, it simply looks like there is nothing out there when they try to jam you.
> 
> Here is a company that produces DRFM:
> 
> http://www.korelectronics.com/asp/Site/Products/DRFM/index.asp
> 
> As you can see, US is not the only player in this field. As I mentioned earlier, PAF tabled the issue for now as this capability has an offensive purpose (to be used to blind enemy jamming during operations over their airspace) and was raising some eyebrows in the Congress. Eventually PAF will buy it from the US or third parties.....in any case, this does not impact the F-16s capability in a defensive role.



DRFM will come with f-16 some one from other forum who visited IDEAS confirmed this.


----------



## blain2

Another report about the F-16 sale going through for Pakistan:

Lockheed gets $144 million deal for Pakistan F-16s

Tue Dec 5, 5:50 PM ET

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. Air Force is awarding Lockheed Martin Corp. (NYSE:LMT - news) a $144.1 million contract for materials that will be used in advanced F-16 fighter aircraft bound for Pakistan, the U.S. Defense Department said on Tuesday.
ADVERTISEMENT

As part of a potential $5.1 billion package, the United States has agreed to sell Pakistan up to 36 new F-16C/D Block 52 aircraft together with refurbished F-16s. An arms package is also on offer as part of the deal.

Work under the contract being awarded to Bethesda, Maryland-based Lockheed, the Pentagon's No. 1 supplier, is to be wrapped up by November 2010, the Pentagon said in its daily contract summary.


----------



## Owais

blain2 said:


> Another report about the F-16 sale going through for Pakistan:
> 
> Lockheed gets $144 million deal for Pakistan F-16s
> .



what kind of material?


blain2 said:


> We are not getting DRFM with the jamming pods.



means PAF F-16s will not have SEAD (Suppression of Enemy Air Defenses) capablity??


----------



## falcone

Here is the Pentagon's report on what blain2 graciously submitted:



Lockheed Martin Corp., Fort Worth, Texas, is being awarded a $144,069,000 firm-fixed-price and time and materials contract. The procurement of foreign military sales F-16 C/D new aircraft for the (Pakistan) program for the F-16 Block 52 aircraft. The procurement of 12 operational single place F-16C Block 52 aircraft and 6 operational two place F-16D Block 52 aircraft will be accomplished under the firm-fixed price portion of the contract. This effort supports foreign military sales to Pakistan. At this time, $78,431,000 has been obligated. This work will be complete by November 2010.


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## falcone

Here's some info about the radars on the Block 52s for Pakistan

November 15

Northrop Grumman Electronic Systems, Linthicum Heights, Md., is being awarded a $99,500,000 firm-fixed-price contract. This action provides for government furnished property for the Government of Pakistan for F-16 Block 50/52 new aircraft and modernization program. The procurement of 54 AN/APG-68 (V) 9 Radar Systems will be accomplished under the firm-fixed-price portion of the contract. At this time, $49,750,000 have been obligated. This work will be complete May 2010.


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## falcone

Here's more:

November 17:

Raytheon Co., Tucson, Ariz., is being awarded a $269,646,834 firm-fixed-price contract modification. This action is exercising an option to purchase 500 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM) Air Vehicles (AAVs) Air Intercept Missile (AIM) Ã¢â¬â 120C-5 missiles and rehost. This effort supports foreign military sales to Pakistan 100%. At this time, total funds have been obligated. This work will be complete April 2011.


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## falcone

I believe someone was asking earlier about when Pakistan will start receiving F-16s. This is what was on F-16.net: 

"The Pakistani Daily Times quoted Pakistan Air Chief Air Marshal Rashad Kaleem saying that the US will begin providing the F-16 jet fighters to Pakistan as of December 2008."

http://www.f-16.net/news_article2081.html


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## Neo

Thanks for the update Falcone.

Do you have info regarding the MLU-3 package and delivery of 28 stored block 15 F-16A/B's aswell?

When can we expect these to be handed over to PAF?


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## falcone

I don't know about when the A/Bs might be handed over (the F-16.net report did not say whether the C/Ds or A/Bs would be coming in 2008), but here is some info on the MLU package for Pakistan:

"The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of 60 F-16A/B Mid-Life Update (MLU) modification and Falcon Star Structural Service Life Enhancement kits consisting of:


APG-68(V)9 with Synthetic Aperture Radar or the APG-66(V)2 radar;
Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS);
AN/APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems;
AN/ALE-47 Advanced Countermeasures Dispenser Systems;
Have Quick I/II Radios;
Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals (MIDS-LVT);
SNIPER (formerly known as AN/AAQ-33 PANTERA) targeting pod capability; 
Reconnaissance pod capability;
Advanced Air Combat Maneuvering Instrumentation Units (for training);

MDE included in the MLU modification and structural upgrade kits;

21 ALQ-131 Block II Electronic Countermeasures Pods without the Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM); or ALQ-184 Electronic Countermeasures Pods without DRFM;
60 ALQ-213 Electronic Warfare Management Systems;
1 Unit Level Trainer;
10 APG-68(V)9 spare radar sets."

from f-16.net and from the DSCA

Two of the 28 A/B OCUs have been delivered (December 2005); the remaining 26 are yet to be delivered.

I hope that answers your question. 

By the way, is the extended tailcone that can be seen on the f-16 models at IDEAS 2006 a housing for ECM equipment or for a brake chute?


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## Neo

*Pakistan to get most advanced F16s from US * :flag: 

WASHINGTON, Dec 12 (Online): The US government has awarded an initial $78 million as part of a $144 million contract to Lockheed Martin for tasks related to the production of 18 new Advanced Block 52 F-16 aircraft for Pakistan. 

"This is another great day for the F-16 programme and for our customer. We remain committed to providing Pakistan with the most technologically advanced and proven fighter available on the international market today," a senior company official said Monday. 

"The F-16s we will deliver to Pakistan will join a fleet of over 4,300 aircraft representing more than 24 countries, with 51 follow-on buys by 14 repeat customers, each who have relied on the Fighting Falcon as a key component of their national defence and fighter force structure," said June Shrewsbury, vice president, Lockheed Martin F-16 programmes. 

Earlier this year, the governments of Pakistan and the United States signed a Letter of Offer and Acceptance (LOA) agreeing to the purchase of 18 Block 52 F-16s. The LOA provides Pakistan an option for an additional 18 aircraft. 

The new aircraft will modernise the existing Pakistan Air Force fleet, bringing a robust and versatile defensive capability to the nationÃ¢â¬â¢s military. The final Pakistan F-16 under this contract will be delivered in 2010, a company release said. 

"Our company and employees take great pride in producing and sustaining the F-16 for many years to come. We value our longstanding relationship with the government of Pakistan and the confidence they have placed in the F-16 in support of their nationÃ¢â¬â¢s security," said Shrewsbury. 

Employing about 140,000 people worldwide, Lockheed Martin is principally engaged in the research, design, development, manufacture and integration of advanced technology systems, products and services. In 2005, it reported sales of $37.2 billion. 

Meanwhile The United States plans to sell Pakistan a new billion dollar arms package, including E-2C Hawkeye 2000 Airborne Early Warning Suite for P-3s and TOW-2A Anti-Armour Guided Missiles. 

The US Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) informed Congress of these proposed sales at PakistanÃ¢â¬â¢s request Dec 7 in two separate notifications, claiming these will not affect the basic military balance in the region. 

The proposed sales "will contribute to the foreign policy and national security of the United States by helping to improve the security of a friendly country that has been and continues to be an important force for economic progress in South Asia and a partner in the global war on terrorism", they said. 

The total value of proposed refurbishment and modification of three excess P-3 aircraft with the E-2C HAWKEYE 2000 Airborne Early Warning (AEW) Suite, as well as associated equipment and services could, if all options are exercised, be as high as $855 million. 

The total value of 2,769 Radio Frequency (RF) TOW 2A Missiles, 7 RF TOW 2A Fly-to-buy Missiles, 415 RF Bunker Buster Missiles, 7 RF Fly-to-buy Bunker Buster Missiles, upgrade of 121 TOW Basic/TOW-I launchers to fire TOW II configuration for wire-guided and wireless missiles as well as associated equipment and services could, if all options are exercised, reach $185 million. 

The command-and-control capabilities of P-3 aircraft with the E-2C HAWKEYE 2000 Airborne Early Warning (AEW) Suite will improve PakistanÃ¢â¬â¢s ability to restrict the littoral movement of terrorists along PakistanÃ¢â¬â¢s southern border and ensure PakistanÃ¢â¬â¢s overall ability to maintain integrity of its borders. 

Pakistan intends to use the proposed equipment to develop an effective air defence network for its naval forces and provide an AEW surveillance and enhanced command, control, and communications capability, the Pentagon said. 

The addition of the AEW suites will provide Pakistan with search surveillance, and control capability in support of maritime interdiction operations. These aircraft will also increase PakistanÃ¢â¬â¢s ability to support the US Operation Enduring Freedom operations, and provide anti-ship and anti-submarine warfare capabilities; and a control capability over land against transnational terrorists and narcotics smugglers, the notification said. 

The modernisation will enhance the capabilities of the Pakistani Navy and support its regional influence and meet its legitimate self-defence needs. Pakistan will have no difficulty absorbing the AEW platform into its armed forces, it said. 

TOW-2A missiles, the notification said, "will contribute to furthering the foreign policy and national security of the United States by helping a friendly country provide for its own legitimate self-defence needs and to enable Pakistan to support US operations against terrorist activity along its porous borders". 

In addition, these missiles have most recently been employed in several global war on terrorism operations in the tribal areas of Pakistan and have allowed, when coupled with Cobra attack helicopters, the government of Pakistan to employ new tactics, techniques and procedures that have proven highly effective against terrorists. 

Pakistan will augment its land forces with these TOW-2A anti-armour guided missiles. It will use these missiles to increase its military defensive posture and will have no difficulty absorbing these additional missiles into its armed forces. 

PakistanÃ¢â¬â¢s existing inventory of TOW missiles will soon begin to be affected by its specified shelf life. While TOW missiles can be employed beyond their shelf life, system reliability and safety are eroded. Pakistan continues to expend TOW missiles in both training exercises and combat operations, the Pentagon said. 

http://thepakistaninewspaper.com/news_detail.php?id=7501


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## Janbaz

Awesome development. . Great news.


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## Owais

thats realy a great news! :flag:


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## Neo

Lockheed gets $144m to build F-16s for Pakistan

WASHINGTON, Dec 12: The Lockheed Martin Corporation of the US has received a $144 million contract to begin production of 18 F-16C/Ds for Pakistan, as part of a $5.1 billion arms package to re-equip the countryÃ¢â¬â¢s air force. The work on the project *will be completed by November 2010.*

*The planes to be built under the contract will be Block 52 aircraft -- 12 single-seat Cs and six two-seat Ds -- powered by Pratt & Whitney F100-229 engines. The Northrop Grumman company has received a $99.5 million contract to produce 54 APG-68 (V)9 radars for new F-16s, plus existing and second-hand aircraft Pakistan plans to upgrade.*

*Turkey's Tusas Aerospace Industries signed a memorandum of understanding with Pakistan Air Force last month to modernise up to 32 F-16A/Bs.*

PakistanÃ¢â¬â¢s F-16s package also includes conformal fuel tanks, helmet-mounted cueing systems, Link 16 data-links and electronic-warfare equipment.

An associated $650 million weaponsÃ¢â¬â¢ deal includes 500 Raytheon AIM-120C5, 200 AIM-9M Sidewinder air-to-air missiles and 2,100 precision-guided bombs.

http://www.dawn.com/2006/12/13/top4.htm


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## salman_ebox

KashifAsrar
being a major


i thing u r very worry about our F-16. common major do't take any trouble. pak will get the F-16 very early. ok


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## EagleEyes

Are we going to have the same color scheme for our F-16s? I heard for J-10 we will have the dark Chinese J-10 scheme, and some other color.


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## Neo

*Northrop Grumman to Provide Pakistan Air Force with F-16 Fire Control Radar Systems*

Wednesday January 10, 8:00 am ET 


BALTIMORE, Jan. 10, 2007 (PRIME NEWSWIRE) -- Northrop Grumman Corporation (NYSE:NOC - News) has been awarded a contract to provide its advanced AN/APG-68(V)9 airborne fire control radar capability for a total of 52 F-16 fighter aircraft for the Pakistan Air Force.

The contract, awarded by the U.S. Air Force, valued at $49.75 million, calls for the manufacture and installation of the radars on 18 new F-16 Block 52+ aircraft with retrofit kits for 34 existing F-16 A/B Block 15 aircraft. Delivery of the first radar systems will commence in 2008.

The contract also includes options to equip up to 44 additional F-16 aircraft with the AN/APG-68(V)9 radar capability. This would involve the manufacture of complete radar systems for 18 new F-16 Block 52+ aircraft, with retrofit kits for an additional 26 F-16 A/B Block 15 aircraft.

The newest version of the F-16 radar, Northrop Grumman's AN/APG-68(V)9, features a high resolution synthetic aperture radar capability and provides the F-16 with extended air-to-air detection range, increased reliability and lower support costs.

``Today's combat and peace keeping operations require very precise air-to-ground strike capability,'' said Katie A. Gray, vice president of F-16 sensor systems at Northrop Grumman's Electronic Systems sector. ``The Pakistan Air Force will not only employ state-of-the-art fire control radar capability for both air-to-ground and air-to-air superiority, but will also benefit from the cost savings associated with F-16 fleet radar commonality across all of their new F-16s and existing F-16 A/B Block 15 aircraft.''

To date, over 450 APG-68(V)9 radars have been ordered by eight different countries, with over 300 radars delivered for integration and installation in new F-16 Block 52+ aircraft, for retrofit into F-16 C/D aircraft and for retrofit into F-16 A/B aircraft.

Northrop Grumman Corporation is a $30 billion global defense and technology company whose 120,000 employees provide innovative systems, products, and solutions in information and services, electronics, aerospace and shipbuilding to government and commercial customers worldwide.

http://biz.yahoo.com/pz/070110/111611.html


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## Bull

Neo said:


> *Northrop Grumman Corporation (NYSE:NOC - News) has been awarded a contract to provide its advanced AN/APG-68(V)9 airborne fire control radar capability for a total of 52 F-16 fighter aircraft for the Pakistan Air Force.
> (18 new F-16 Block 52+ aircraft with retrofit kits for 34 existing F-16 A/B Block 15 aircraft.)
> 
> The contract also includes options to equip up to 44 additional F-16 aircraft with the AN/APG-68(V)9 radar capability. *


*

So you will have totally 96 F-16s in PAF,right?*


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## Neo

Bull said:


> So you will have totally 96 F-16s in PAF,right?


Yes, but imho this includes the 18 new F-16C/D in option aswell.
It remains to be seen if the option will be materialised.


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## falcone

Here's some more:

Lockheed Martin Corp., Fort Worth, Texas, is being awarded a $161,033,000 firm-fixed-price and time and materials contract. The procurement of foreign military sales F-16 A/B Mid-Life updated for the Peace (Pakistan) program for the F-16 Block 15 aircraft. The procurement of 24 modernization kits F-16A Block 15 aircraft and 10 modernization kits F-16A Block 15 aircraft will be accomplished under the firm-fixed price portion of the contract. This effort supports foreign military sales to Pakistan. At this time, $89,955,000 have been obligated. This work will be complete by November 2010.


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## falcone

By the way, does anyone know whether the extended tailcone that can be seen on the F-16 models at IDEAS 2006 a housing for ECM equipment or for a brake chute?


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## melb4aust

falcone said:


> By the way, does anyone know whether the extended tailcone that can be seen on the F-16 models at IDEAS 2006 a housing for ECM equipment or for a brake chute?



F-16 does'nt require the brake chute, so possibly it could be for ECM stuff.


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## Mercenary

As Usual Indians are obsessed with Pakistan and here is yet another example.

Indian buys billions of worth of arms from Israel, Russia and other countries and Pakistan never says anything but when Pakistan decides to upgrade its Air Force India creates all this hoopla that its survival maybe at risk by these F-16's.

http://story.malaysiasun.com/index.php/ct/9/cid/d805653303cbbba8/id/222505/cs/1/

Indian Americans seek to stop US missile sale to Pakistan
Malaysia Sun
Wednesday 27th December, 2006 
IANS

Indian Americans are making a valiant bid to halt the proposed US sale of a billion dollar arms package to Pakistan, including TOW-2A Anti-Armour Guided Missiles and E-2C Hawkeye 2000 Airborne Early Warning system.

Under the rules, the proposed sales will go through Jan 7 unless the US Congress specifically disapproves them within 30 days of being notified by Pentagon Dec 7 - a highly unlikely prospect as the newly elected Congress begins its session only on Jan 4.

TOW-2A missiles, which the Pentagon claimed would 'enable Pakistan to support US operations against terrorist activity along its porous borders', could reach $185 million. E-2C HAWKEYE 2000 system for three P-3 aircraft could cost another $855 million.

Undeterred by the near futility of their efforts given that a $5.1 billion dollar deal for F-16 planes went through last July with no more than a Congressional rap on the knuckles, Indian Americans have mounted a campaign to inform the lawmakers about the implication of the missile sale to Pakistan for US national security interests.

Spurred by the US-India Friendship, a voluntary effort of Indian Americans, several US voters of Indian origin have sent e-mails to their elected representatives pointing out that such 'a serious decision' has been taken in a sort of legislative vacuum.

The notification was issued Dec 7 - less than two days before the outgoing 109th Congress ended its lame-duck session in the early hours of Dec 9 - and the 30-day notice period expires Jan 6 - just three days after the newly elected 110th Congress takes office on Jan 3.

If it happens, it will take place without Congressional oversight into a sale of high tech and possible dual use military equipment, with serious national security implications, said Hari Iyer urging his area representatives 'to ask for a deferment of the sales so that you can perform your constitutionally required duty'.

Another Indian American, B K Vasan, warned that even if a small percentage of these weapons fall into the hands of the Taliban, it can wreak havoc against the American and NATO forces.

Manish Thakur said selling Pakistan missiles will send the worst message at this time. For it will not only further encourage Pakistan to tolerate attacks from its territory on US troops, but it 'also runs the risk of proliferation of advanced technologies to our enemies.'

Jaya Kamlani warned these US supplied arms could be used against India, as was done in 1965 during President Lyndon Johnson's presidency.

Subhash Paradkar suggested use of diplomatic leverage rather than an arms race for 'the development of goodwill in the minds of the Pakistani people toward the United States and India.'

However, Indian Americans apparently face an uphill task as the $5.1 billion F-16 deal for Pakistan emerged unscathed from the 30-day congressional review period last July under similar circumstances.

As the deadline for the Congress to block the deal notified by Pentagon ended then, the House of Representatives went into a month long recess without taking up resolutions by two Democratic lawmakers to block it. The issue never came up before the full Senate.

Just a week before the expiry of the deadline, the House committee on international relations upbraided the Bush administration for what it called a calculated move to diminish Congressional authority over the rushed sale of F-16 fighter jets to Pakistan, but made no move to block it.

Ranking Democrat Tom Lantos, who is set to take over as the chairman of the panel in the new House and his retiring Republican predecessor Henry Hyde later introduced a bill requiring quarterly updates on possible upcoming arms sales and enforcing a 20-day consultation period before the State Department formally notifies Congress of a proposed sale.

At the hearing John Hillen, assistant secretary of state for political-military affairs, admitted that the administration had chosen to waive the 20-day pre-notification period without consulting either Hyde or Lantos, but made no move to end what Democrat Brad Sherman called 'this charade' of consultations.

He affirmed that the Congress had no means to stop the deal unless both the House and Senate passed resolutions rejecting it before the 30-day review ran out and then override a Bush veto.


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## Janbaz

Fall in Taliban hands! Pathetic ranting from the east!


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## vnomad

Mercenary said:


> Indian buys billions of worth of arms from Israel, Russia and other countries and Pakistan never says anything but when Pakistan decides to upgrade its Air Force India creates all this hoopla that its survival maybe at risk by these F-16's.


This is not sunday school, that he got a lollipop so we should also get a lollipop. Just who's fault(or stupidity) is it that Pakistan didn't protest? Didn't the Pakistani military know that they may have to face this "billions of dollars" worth of military equipment someday. Or does it have something to do with the fact that Pakistan has no influence with Russia and Israel, very limited influence with UK, and waning importance in the US map. The French ofcourse care only about the cash. India despite being a steady ally of Russia has a voice in the US and being gracious where national defence is concerned is stupidity.


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## blain2

vnomad said:


> This is not sunday school, that he got a lollipop so we should also get a lollipop. Just who's fault(or stupidity) is it that Pakistan didn't protest? Didn't the Pakistani military know that they may have to face this "billions of dollars" worth of military equipment someday. Or does it have something to do with the fact that Pakistan has no influence with Russia and Israel, very limited influence with UK, and waning importance in the US map. The French ofcourse care only about the cash. India despite being a steady ally of Russia has a voice in the US and being gracious where national defence is concerned is stupidity.



Pakistan does not have to protest. The US has detached its dealings with India and Pakistan and as such it does not really matter what voice India has with the US. Its the US national interests and for as long as those are being helped by Pakistan, US will continue to deal with Pakistan militarily. 

Not having influence with Israel is by choice...not because they are blindly aligned with India and refuse to deal with Pakistan. Russia can be seen in the same prisim as Pakistan's relations with China (over which India has no influence).

Lobbying in the US is open game...whoever can successfully lobby takes the day...so kudos to Indians for trying. Also keep in mind that Pakistani-Russian relations will not stay static...they too will change as India's dealings with US evolve...the fact that Pakistan too is in SCO, means that there will be growth in security relations b/w Pakistan and Russia.


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## Bull

blain2 said:


> Lobbying in the US is open game...whoever can successfully lobby takes the day...so kudos to Indians for trying. Also keep in mind that Pakistani-Russian relations will not stay static...they too will change as India's dealings with US evolve...the fact that Pakistan too is in SCO, means that there will be growth in security relations b/w Pakistan and Russia.



thats a better way of putting it, rather than saying "Indians are scared thats why they cry and all those bullshit".


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## falcone

Thank you melb4aust for that reply. However, at least two air forces (Belgium and Indonesia) have F-16As with parachute fairings. 
"The aircraft originally received a smart blue/white color scheme (replaced by the Millenium colour scheme in 2000), and have *a parachute fairing* present in the tail root. Serial numbers occupy the TS-1601/TS-1612 range, and the aircraft wear the national roundel on the left wing." 
Indonesian Air Force

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_users_article6.html

"Close-up of the Carrapace passive RWR system installed on Belgian AF F-16s. The system consists of 2 receivers, mounted in the *parachute compartment* and under the intake." 
Belgian Air Force

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_users_article2.html

:army:


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## melb4aust

falcone said:


> Thank you melb4aust for that reply. However, at least two air forces (Belgium and Indonesia) have F-16As with parachute fairings.
> "The aircraft originally received a smart blue/white color scheme (replaced by the Millenium colour scheme in 2000), and have *a parachute fairing* present in the tail root. Serial numbers occupy the TS-1601/TS-1612 range, and the aircraft wear the national roundel on the left wing."
> Indonesian Air Force
> 
> http://www.f-16.net/f-16_users_article6.html
> 
> "Close-up of the Carrapace passive RWR system installed on Belgian AF F-16s. The system consists of 2 receivers, mounted in the *parachute compartment* and under the intake."
> Belgian Air Force
> 
> http://www.f-16.net/f-16_users_article2.html
> 
> :army:



Well, thats a good info regarding to the chute in F-16 and they are very rare, 
but you've asked me about the F-16's pakistan is going to get so they are coming without chutes, yes there is a option of having chute in the aircraft incase of short runway to land or if brakes failure occur, just incase of an emergency.


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## Contrarian

blain2 said:


> Pakistan does not have to protest. The US has detached its dealings with India and Pakistan and as such it does not really matter what voice India has with the US. Its the US national interests and for as long as those are being helped by Pakistan, US will continue to deal with Pakistan militarily.
> 
> Not having influence with Israel is by choice...not because they are blindly aligned with India and refuse to deal with Pakistan. Russia can be seen in the same prisim as Pakistan's relations with China (over which India has no influence).



Israel has said it would not have any relationship with a Muslim country, there are some exceptions of course, but they are because of history. Israel will not jump the gun for Pakistan.



> Lobbying in the US is open game...whoever can successfully lobby takes the day...so kudos to Indians for trying.



Yeah the Indian American community has just started to become active in politics. Indians are there in US in vast numbers. The results are there in the Indo-US nuke deal. I would dare to say that the deal was passed in congress because of them. They usedd their own influence to get congressmen to vote in favour. Since this has only very recently started. Threre is an Indian-American congressmen or senator(im confused) there too. I would hope that their sheer numbers and their successes there would make them like the famed jewish lobby in the US. Like i said, they have just started.



> Also keep in mind that Pakistani-Russian relations will not stay static...they too will change as India's dealings with US evolve...the fact that Pakistan too is in SCO, means that there will be growth in security relations b/w Pakistan and Russia.



Yeah, as will India-China relations. They are not static and are akready moving at a steady pace. India too is in SCO along with Pakistan, though SCO was China's baby, and Russia is only secondary. 

Though this is debatable, i would say that for a long time to come, Russia will be with India in all aspects. Because even though Russia cares more for money now. The Russian economy is growing good, and thus, it makes them less dependent on other powers, and it can play its card well, and support allies now, which was not the case earlier. Plus, India has invested a lot in Russia. Pakistan cannot offer the same kind of money as India. And Russia wants another axis: Russia , India, China. 
That does not include Pakistan. And now the relations b/w Russia and India are over the cold war era US-Pak and India-Russia axis. There wwould be deeper ties.


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## Mercenary

malaymishra123 said:


> Israel has said it would not have any relationship with a Muslim country, there are some exceptions of course, but they are because of history. Israel will not jump the gun for Pakistan.



Israel has relations with Egypt, Jordan and Turkey and they are all muslim.

Israel even builds weaponry for Turkey



malaymishra123 said:


> Yeah the Indian American community has just started to become active in politics. Indians are there in US in vast numbers. The results are there in the Indo-US nuke deal. I would dare to say that the deal was passed in congress because of them. They usedd their own influence to get congressmen to vote in favour. Since this has only very recently started. Threre is an Indian-American congressmen or senator(im confused) there too. I would hope that their sheer numbers and their successes there would make them like the famed jewish lobby in the US. Like i said, they have just started.



The only reason the Jewish lobby has so much clout is because of Christian Evangalicals so Indian lobby will never be as powerful as the Jewish lobby.




malaymishra123 said:


> Yeah, as will India-China relations. They are not static and are akready moving at a steady pace. India too is in SCO along with Pakistan, though SCO was China's baby, and Russia is only secondary.
> 
> Though this is debatable, i would say that for a long time to come, Russia will be with India in all aspects. Because even though Russia cares more for money now. The Russian economy is growing good, and thus, it makes them less dependent on other powers, and it can play its card well, and support allies now, which was not the case earlier. Plus, India has invested a lot in Russia. Pakistan cannot offer the same kind of money as India. And Russia wants another axis: Russia , India, China.
> That does not include Pakistan. And now the relations b/w Russia and India are over the cold war era US-Pak and India-Russia axis. There wwould be deeper ties.



India and China are both vying for control for Asia where Pakistan and Russia have a different symmetry. India and China are natural rivals and as such will never be as close as China and Pakistan. But while India tilts towards USA, Russia will acquire a new arms market in Pakistan and since Russia relies on huge weapon sales to generate revenue it will have no problem selling to Pakistan.


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## Contrarian

Mercenary said:


> Israel has relations with Egypt, Jordan and Turkey and they are all muslim.
> 
> Israel even builds weaponry for Turkey



Yeah like i said, exceptions cuz of history!, but considering that Israel wanted to bomb Pakistan too. I doubt Israel would make an exception NOW for Pakistan.



> The only reason the Jewish lobby has so much clout is because of Christian Evangalicals so Indian lobby will never be as powerful as the Jewish lobby.



Dude, why are u taking it personally. I said I hope it becomes like the Jewish lobby there. I never said that it will definitely become so. Anyways, they would have a huge influence, regardless if it is as much as the jewish one or not. We have excellent relations with Israel.




> India and China are both vying for control for Asia where Pakistan and Russia have a different symmetry. India and China are natural rivals and as such will never be as close as China and Pakistan. But while India tilts towards USA, Russia will acquire a new arms market in Pakistan and since Russia relies on huge weapon sales to generate revenue it will have no problem selling to Pakistan.



Dont count on Russia selling weapons to Pakistan. Not yet anyways.
Who says India and China are 'natural' rivals. The only rivalry is there and enimosity exists because of the 62 war. India and China are on a very steady path to peace. Hopefully the boundary issue will be resolved over time and then there will be no bone of contention.

As far Russia, Russia and Pakistan are more of rivals as Pak helped CA in afghanistan, etc.


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## Munir

Turkey and Egypt hardly represent any objective and valuable muslim power. Egypt is dictatorship and certainly not democratic. Its under US control cause it might be dangerous for Israel. Turkey isn't any danger to anyone. It is going through it knees to get accepted by Europe...

Israel is not moved by India either. Since Pakistan tends to move towards China they certainly are allowed to earn cash from the US... How else would US say no to Israeli awacs ro China and yes to India? The fact that US want to counter China is already shown by the nuclear arrangement between the two. It is pathetic that the example democracy in the world skip NPT and sells is nuclear soul to a nation that cannot feed 600 million...


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## vnomad

blain2 said:


> Pakistan does not have to protest. The US has detached its dealings with India and Pakistan and as such it does not really matter what voice India has with the US. Its the US national interests and for as long as those are being helped by Pakistan, US will continue to deal with Pakistan militarily.


Its in India's best interest to protest. So, India did. There is nothing pathetic about it. But, assuming that India should be cool with it because we already we a strong military is idiocity.


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## vnomad

Munir said:


> It is pathetic that the example democracy in the world skip NPT and sells is nuclear soul to a nation that cannot feed 600 million...


Sell its nuclear soul. Don't comment when you know almost nothing. And you DON'T know anything about the nuclear pact. Its a windfall and India doesn't like to look the gift horse in the mouth. And poverty in India and Pakistan is similar. Unless you have contempt for Pakistan too you'd be better off not stirring that hive.


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## Contrarian

Munir said:


> Turkey and Egypt hardly represent any objective and valuable muslim power. Egypt is dictatorship and certainly not democratic. Its under US control cause it might be dangerous for Israel. Turkey isn't any danger to anyone. It is going through it knees to get accepted by Europe...



Egypt has proper ceasefire with Israel. Its all because of history like i said. Pakistan has no histor with Israel apart from them wanting to bomb Pakistan.
And like i said, Israe is not likely to make any new friends

[/QUOTE]Israel is not moved by India either. Since Pakistan tends to move towards China they certainly are allowed to earn cash from the US... How else would US say no to Israeli awacs ro China and yes to India? The fact that US want to counter China is already shown by the nuclear arrangement between the two. It is pathetic that the example democracy in the world skip NPT and sells is nuclear soul to a nation that cannot feed 600 million...[/QUOTE]

Well...the nuke deal is meant to give electricity and increase and improve the countries people. How is that bad??
We have proved to the world that India is a responsible nuclear country, it is a democracy, it does not go with military adventureism. That made them remove the restrictions placed on India. And we get nuke power, its clean and cheap. It is of immense benifit to us as citizens of India.

Why Pakistan is crying foul, is not because of concerns for Indian people or morality or whatever. Its crying because they were NOT given the deal while India was, and they had bluntly asked for it. And it tilted the balance even heavily in favour of India.

Who cares what the US wants. India will do what is in its own national intersts. If all the restrictions on India are being removed, why should we crib? If we are being given access to technology denied to us for decades, why should we crib? India is uplifting its poor very fast. If to you that means that we should abandon everything else till no1 is poor in India, that we should not spend and invest in other places, then you say what you say out of spite.


----------



## Mercenary

When Exactly did Israel want to bomb Pakistan?

This is a myth conjured up by Jew hating Pakistanis.....

Israel never wanted to bomb Pakistan...

Infact, of all the countries in the world in which Israel needs to form a diplomatic relations with, Pakistan is #1

Pakistan is the only nuclear armed Islamic country with a huge population and is non-arab or non-persian and is not interested in being the leader of the islamic world.

So a diplomatic recognition by Pakistan for Israel will be a huge stepforward

I hope that day comes soon

Because I am getting tired of Pakistan fighting for Arab causes when Arabs dont give a rats *** about Pakistan


----------



## blain2

vnomad said:


> Its in India's best interest to protest. So, India did. There is nothing pathetic about it. But, assuming that India should be cool with it because we already we a strong military is idiocity.



Regardless of Indian protestations, the sales will go through. India's protesting is a formality given the current geo-political situation. That is my point.


----------



## niaz

Mercenary said:


> When Exactly did Israel want to bomb Pakistan?
> 
> This is a myth conjured up by Jew hating Pakistanis.....
> 
> Israel never wanted to bomb Pakistan...
> 
> Infact, of all the countries in the world in which Israel needs to form a diplomatic relations with, Pakistan is #1
> 
> Pakistan is the only nuclear armed Islamic country with a huge population and is non-arab or non-persian and is not interested in being the leader of the islamic world.
> 
> So a diplomatic recognition by Pakistan for Israel will be a huge stepforward
> 
> I hope that day comes soon
> 
> Because I am getting tired of Pakistan fighting for Arab causes when Arabs dont give a rats *** about Pakistan



Naturally until an attack actually occurs, any accusation is based upon speculation only. However, I heard Lt Gen Hamid Gul(rtd) ex DG ISI, who should have some inside info; on a TV talk show called "Views on News" that during the early 1990's Israel conspired with India and planned an attack on the 'New Laboratories' at Kahuta, near Islamabad. This is a hush hush installtion which was reputedly the hub of Pakistan's nuclear activity. Pakistan had to install Croatale SAM's near the area as a precautionery measure. 

No one can be sure about the element of truth in this, but apparently ISI had info that Indian planes in Israeli marking were seen practicing simulated attacks near the Jammu area which is similar in terrain to Kahuta.

You are however correct in asserting that Israel would like have good relations with Pakistan. You must understand that whatever Arabs think about Pakistanis, we are an emotional people and we have a natural soft spot for the people speaking the language of our holy book. Additionally, Isreal's actions over the past 50 years, where they refused to hand over the West Bank and the Golan Heights even though it was not an original part of Israel, and their policy of pre-emptive strike smacks of an arrogance which is detested by most Pakistanis.

Let me put another thing straight. Only Arab country that Pakistan really helped during war with Israel was Jordan. If US pilots can fly Israeli Skyhawks in the 1973 war with Egypt; when M-60s were virtually rolling out of C-130's straight into battle, you should not blame Pakistan helping a friend with pilots.


----------



## Mercenary

Hameed Gul is a complete moron.

He said that Pakistan should have militarily resisted USA in Afghanistan and the only thing Pakistan had to worry about were High Altitude US B-52 Bombers.

He also said that Jews caused 9/11

This man is the Dick Cheney or Donald Rumsfeld of Pakistan

So in other words not to be taken at his word


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## genmirajborgza786

Pentagon halts sale of F-14 parts By SHARON THEIMER, Associated Press Writer 
1 hour, 59 minutes ago



WASHINGTON - The Pentagon said Tuesday it had stopped selling surplus F-14 parts, announcing the step after congressional criticism of security weaknesses that had given buyers for countries including Iran access to the aircraft parts and other valuable gear. 
Sales of parts from the recently retired fleet were halted last Friday, Defense Logistics Agency spokesman Jack Hooper said, adding that marketing of the parts will remain suspended until a "comprehensive review" is completed. He did not immediately elaborate.
The decision comes as a Democratic senator moves to cut off all Pentagon sales of surplus F-14 parts, saying the military's marketing of the spares "defies common sense" in light of their importance to Iran.Sen. Ron Wyden (news, bio, voting record)'s bill came in response to an investigation by The Associated Press that found weaknesses in surplus-sale security that allowed buyers for countries including Iran and China to surreptitiously obtain sensitive U.S. military equipment including Tomcat parts.The Oregon Democrat's legislation would ban the Defense Department from selling surplus F-14 parts and prohibit buyers who have already acquired surplus Tomcat parts from exporting them. Wyden's bill, the Stop Arming Iran Act, is co-sponsored by the Senate's No. 2 lawmaker, Democratic Whip Richard Durbin (news, bio, voting record) of Illinois.The surplus sales are one of the first national security issues to be addressed by the new Democratic-controlled Congress."It just defies common sense to be making this kind of equipment available to the Iranians with all that they have done that is against our interests," Wyden said Monday in an interview,addingthatconstituents brought up the surplus-sale security problems at his town-hall meetings over the past few days. "I just want tolegislate this and cut it off permanently, once and for all."
The Tomcat is the fighter jet made famous in the 1986 Tom Cruise blockbuster movie, "Top Gun." The U.S. military retired its F-14s last fall. That leaves only Iran Ã¢â¬â which bought the fighter jet in the 1970s when it was a U.S. ally Ã¢â¬â flying the planes.
U.S. law enforcement officials believe Iran can produce only about 15 percent of the parts it needs for its Tomcats, making the Pentagon's surplus sales a valuable avenue for spares.The Pentagon had planned to sell about 60 percent of the roughly 76,000 parts for the F-14, viewing them as general nuts-and-bolts-type aircraft hardware that could be sold safely without restrictions.Some of those spares from the newly retired fleet probably have already been sold, the Defense Logistics Agency's Hooper said. The Defense Department plans to destroy about 10,000 other components it considers unique to the F-14.The agency had been reviewing 23,000 other parts it believed it could sell under existing law but wanted to examine further in light of their potential value to Iran. It will now also review the thousands of nuts-and-bolts-type hardware.Wyden said his bill would cut off the sale of all surplus F-14 parts. The legislation includes all parts to cut off all opportunities for Iranian "fishing expeditions," spokeswoman Jennifer Hoelzer said, adding that GAO investigations have found valuable surplus accidentally getting included in boxes of what are supposed to be nuts-and-bolts-type hardware.
Wyden is confident he can get the bill through the Senate in the next few months. Wyden, a senior member of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, also pledged greater Senate oversight of the surplus program.Hooper declined to comment on the legislation."We're certainly not going to attempt to interfere whatsoever in the legislative process," Hooper said. The Defense Department maintains it has followed all procedures in selling its surplus.The AP reported the Pentagon's F-14 part sales plans earlier this month. Its investigation found that in several cases, buyers for countries that included Iran and China took advantage of security flaws to buy sensitive surplus, including aircraft parts and missile components.
Sen. John Kerry, D-Mass., has asked the Senate Foreign Relations Committee to investigate the surplus security weaknesses. 
source:yahoo


----------



## genmirajborgza786

genmirajborgza786 said:


> Pentagon halts sale of F-14 parts By SHARON THEIMER, Associated Press Writer
> 1 hour, 59 minutes ago
> 
> 
> 
> WASHINGTON - The Pentagon said Tuesday it had stopped selling surplus F-14 parts, announcing the step after congressional criticism of security weaknesses that had given buyers for countries including Iran access to the aircraft parts and other valuable gear.
> Sales of parts from the recently retired fleet were halted last Friday, Defense Logistics Agency spokesman Jack Hooper said, adding that marketing of the parts will remain suspended until a "comprehensive review" is completed. He did not immediately elaborate.
> The decision comes as a Democratic senator moves to cut off all Pentagon sales of surplus F-14 parts, saying the military's marketing of the spares "defies common sense" in light of their importance to Iran.Sen. Ron Wyden (news, bio, voting record)'s bill came in response to an investigation by The Associated Press that found weaknesses in surplus-sale security that allowed buyers for countries including Iran and China to surreptitiously obtain sensitive U.S. military equipment including Tomcat parts.The Oregon Democrat's legislation would ban the Defense Department from selling surplus F-14 parts and prohibit buyers who have already acquired surplus Tomcat parts from exporting them. Wyden's bill, the Stop Arming Iran Act, is co-sponsored by the Senate's No. 2 lawmaker, Democratic Whip Richard Durbin (news, bio, voting record) of Illinois.The surplus sales are one of the first national security issues to be addressed by the new Democratic-controlled Congress."It just defies common sense to be making this kind of equipment available to the Iranians with all that they have done that is against our interests," Wyden said Monday in an interview,addingthatconstituents brought up the surplus-sale security problems at his town-hall meetings over the past few days. "I just want tolegislate this and cut it off permanently, once and for all."
> The Tomcat is the fighter jet made famous in the 1986 Tom Cruise blockbuster movie, "Top Gun." The U.S. military retired its F-14s last fall. That leaves only Iran &#8212; which bought the fighter jet in the 1970s when it was a U.S. ally &#8212; flying the planes.
> U.S. law enforcement officials believe Iran can produce only about 15 percent of the parts it needs for its Tomcats, making the Pentagon's surplus sales a valuable avenue for spares.The Pentagon had planned to sell about 60 percent of the roughly 76,000 parts for the F-14, viewing them as general nuts-and-bolts-type aircraft hardware that could be sold safely without restrictions.Some of those spares from the newly retired fleet probably have already been sold, the Defense Logistics Agency's Hooper said. The Defense Department plans to destroy about 10,000 other components it considers unique to the F-14.The agency had been reviewing 23,000 other parts it believed it could sell under existing law but wanted to examine further in light of their potential value to Iran. It will now also review the thousands of nuts-and-bolts-type hardware.Wyden said his bill would cut off the sale of all surplus F-14 parts. The legislation includes all parts to cut off all opportunities for Iranian "fishing expeditions," spokeswoman Jennifer Hoelzer said, adding that GAO investigations have found valuable surplus accidentally getting included in boxes of what are supposed to be nuts-and-bolts-type hardware.
> Wyden is confident he can get the bill through the Senate in the next few months. Wyden, a senior member of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, also pledged greater Senate oversight of the surplus program.Hooper declined to comment on the legislation."We're certainly not going to attempt to interfere whatsoever in the legislative process," Hooper said. The Defense Department maintains it has followed all procedures in selling its surplus.The AP reported the Pentagon's F-14 part sales plans earlier this month. Its investigation found that in several cases, buyers for countries that included Iran and China took advantage of security flaws to buy sensitive surplus, including aircraft parts and missile components.
> Sen. John Kerry, D-Mass., has asked the Senate Foreign Relations Committee to investigate the surplus security weaknesses.
> source:yahoo



now even after the bitter lesson of the 90's who ever have signed the letter of acceptance on the f-16 deal b/w the U.S & pakistan
should be court marshalled & hang in broad day light in public as a punishment for anti- state activities wait the reason being that our total f-16's that we expect to be delivered to pakistan from the same U.S who put sanction's on the f-16 deal of the 90's and have done it again with iran with the f-14 spares, and now coming back to pakistan again the new senate in the U.S which is a democrats strong hold have recently presented a resolution asking for the U.S govt to stop all the military & financial aid to pakistan for its support for the WOT (war on terror) or more accurately WFO which stand's for WAR FOR OIL. until it (pakistan) does not do enough to curb the taliban/alqaida movement in to Afghanistan. so point is that ( the delivery of the f-solas to pakistan as i was saying it by 2009 to 2011/2013 will we GET(?) IT??? )ok let me make it easy will we get the f-16' or not? & now yes time for the bitter pill so are we ready ladies & gentlemen here it is. Looking at the domestic political scene in the U.S the democrats have a high chance of coming to power in the next general election's to be held in 2008 and the democrats are known be to be hard on their pakistan diplomacy now looking at the domestic scene in pakistan thing are not that right for the musharraf govt so my question and that also another bitter one (but chances are their none the less) so ladies & gentlemen are we ready get set go. what if the musharraf govt is gone or removed by a not so friendly U.S or (this might not be for the weak hearted but none the less chances are their) even an ANTI-U.S govt
takes charge of pakistan in this period between
now and say 2009 to 2011 or even 2013 will the U.S still give us those f-16's no matter how good those f-16's are the point is will we get those very very good
f-16's the answer is: NO WAY so why did our generals signed the latter of acceptance in the first PLACE ?
sure they know what they are doing Yahiya knew what the heck on earth he was doing (dint he????) our knowledge Un-able generals also knew what they were doing when in 1984 they lost siechen glacier just by a poor lazy one week when the fact be told had they knew what they should had been doing they would have been there right after the jan-1-1949 cease fire agreement or the tashkent agreemant or if they would have had learned their lessons then right or at the right time after the simla agreement. isnt so? speaking logically& put it as simply as i can. but, no they were just too lazy for that(WHAT A SHAME) to say the least . So the point that i wanted to give is that as a matter of fact they did not knew at least not as much as they should have known or they were just not serious enough for troubling them self's with the detail's or are just plain & simple LAZY to say the least because many will tell me that our genius generals (the good for nothing ones) in reply, 'look they know what they are doing"... its their job they are not fool's bla bla bal goes on, & on & on. but what's the result may i ask???? so thats why I had to post these bitter pill's full of question,s with some bitter pill's of reality so that the nation can get an honest answer hopefully. PAKISTAN ZINDABAD :army: :flag:


----------



## A.Rahman

Mercenary said:


> Hameed Gul is a complete moron.
> 
> He said that Pakistan should have militarily resisted USA in Afghanistan and the only thing Pakistan had to worry about were High Altitude US B-52 Bombers.
> 
> He also said that Jews caused 9/11
> 
> This man is the Dick Cheney or Donald Rumsfeld of Pakistan
> 
> So in other words not to be taken at his word



This guy was the head of ISI; He knows things that we might not know.
Only time will tell who is right.


----------



## Munir

A.Rahman said:


> This guy was the head of ISI; He knows things that we might not know.
> Only time will tell who is right.



I think that Rhaman made a valuable statement. Some people know a lot more ... And a bit stupid to degrade former head of ISI... He defended your freedom at all cost.


----------



## genmirajborgza786

A.Rahman said:


> This guy was the head of ISI; He knows things that we might not know.
> Only time will tell who is right.




i agree with A.Rahman bhai & munir
i have a'lot of respect for the former head of ISI, theremight be more to it ALLAH(S.W.T) Know's best


----------



## Janbaz

*Delivery of F-16 jets to start next month*

Published: Friday, 9 February, 2007, 01:08 PM Doha Time
ISLAMABAD: Pakistan will start getting the latest version of US F-16 aircraft from next month, official sources said here yesterday.
The test flights of first batch of 18 F-16 Block 50/52 aircraft made for Pakistan have been initiated and they would be on their way next month.
Defence sources say that the $3bn supply of 26 F-16 aircraft (A/B embargoed version) will be completed in 2009.
Pakistan also has the option of buying another batch of brand new F-16 Block 50/52 fitted with weapon system but Islamabad has to make up its mind in this regard, sources said.
Pakistan has also acquired Awacs which would be fitted in the Swedish SAAB planes. For that, Islamabad has already made an order. The Awacs will cost $1bn. It will reach Pakistan in early 2009, well before India gets it from other sources.
Pakistan is also contemplating to obtain Chinese Jiang-10 aircraft considered to be at par with any contemporary multi-role hi-tech fighter plane of any country.
Sources said that India is planning to obtain nuclear-capable 126 modern planes from the world market. Indians are exploring Russian MIG-31, French Rafael and Mirages-2000, four European countries (UK, Germany, France and Italy) joint production Typhoon and Swedish Grippens planes.
All these planes are expensive and available on cash payment.

Gulf Times.
http://gulf-times.com/site/topics/a...=131814&version=1&template_id=41&parent_id=23


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## Janbaz

Now claims that Pakistan will lag behind India with its MRCA deal and the SU-30 inductions, you all need to think again. F-16's are arriving early and J-10's in the next few so... hold your breath!


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## Contrarian

Really?
Wanna compare the aircraft numbers??


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## Neo

Janbaz said:


> *Delivery of F-16 jets to start next month*
> 
> Published: Friday, 9 February, 2007, 01:08 PM Doha Time
> ISLAMABAD: Pakistan will start getting the latest version of US F-16 aircraft from next month, official sources said here yesterday.
> The test flights of first batch of 18 F-16 Block 50/52 aircraft made for Pakistan have been initiated and they would be on their way next month.
> Defence sources say that the $3bn supply of 26 F-16 aircraft (A/B embargoed version) will be completed in 2009.
> Pakistan also has the option of buying another batch of brand new F-16 Block 50/52 fitted with weapon system but Islamabad has to make up its mind in this regard, sources said.
> Pakistan has also acquired Awacs which would be fitted in the Swedish SAAB planes. For that, Islamabad has already made an order. The Awacs will cost $1bn. It will reach Pakistan in early 2009, well before India gets it from other sources.
> Pakistan is also contemplating to obtain Chinese Jiang-10 aircraft considered to be at par with any contemporary multi-role hi-tech fighter plane of any country.
> Sources said that India is planning to obtain nuclear-capable 126 modern planes from the world market. Indians are exploring Russian MIG-31, French Rafael and Mirages-2000, four European countries (UK, Germany, France and Italy) joint production Typhoon and Swedish Grippens planes.
> All these planes are expensive and available on cash payment.
> 
> Gulf Times.
> http://gulf-times.com/site/topics/a...=131814&version=1&template_id=41&parent_id=23



Thats great!
But there's no info on the F-16.net yet.
Hope the report is correct.


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## falcone

Roger that totally, Neo!


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## Abs

delivery's to start in march - thats a bit quick. plus the same month as the JF-17's are due in pakistan, coincidence!


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## Introvert

Jf-17's deliveries r not confirmed yet.


----------



## Abs

Baazi said:


> Jf-17's deliveries r not confirmed yet.



i guess the only time we'll know for sure is when we seen them flying in pakistan. everything has been so hush hush regarding the Jf-17's, we dont know a lot.


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## falcone

I thought that deliveries of the new F-16s were supposed to start in late 2008 or in 2009. Maybe delivery of the embargoed F-16s will commence.


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## Abs

> *Delivery of F-16 jets to start next month*
> The test flights of first batch of 18 F-16 Block 50/52 aircraft made for Pakistan have been initiated and they would be on their way next month.
> Defence sources say that the $3bn supply of 26 F-16 aircraft (A/B embargoed version) will be completed in 2009.






falcone said:


> I thought that deliveries of the new F-16s were supposed to start in late 2008 or in 2009. Maybe delivery of the embargoed F-16s will commence.



embargoed versions would be completed by 2009 but the articles says the block 50/52 are being tested right now and deliveries will start next month


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## Introvert

Abs said:


> embargoed versions would be completed by 2009 but the articles says the block 50/52 are being tested right now and deliveries will start next month



So, how many r we planning to get next month, if there r no hurdles on the way


----------



## Bull

Baazi said:


> So, how many r we planning to get next month, if there r no hurdles on the way



Do bother reading a few posts prior to posting. Anyways the numbers are here https://defence.pk/forums/showpost.php?p=49551&postcount=313


----------



## HAIDER

According to FAS.ORG, deal is 36 c/d F16, valued 3 Billion. So pakistan is getting 36 not 18. So, app total number of F16 will be roughly 96


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## falcone

Haider, with due respect, Pakistan is NOT getting 36 F-16C Block 52 aircraft RIGHT NOW. Pakistan has bought 18 so far and still has the option to buy 18 more (for an possible total of 36 F-16C Block 52 fighter aircraft). Read this for more clarification:

"October 2, 2006 (by Asif Shamim) - *The Pakistani Air Force announced today the signing of an agreement between the Pakistani and U.S. governments for the US to provide 18 new F-16 fighter jets to the country.*

The deal also includes the upgrade of the current 32 F-16s in the fleet and air-to-air and air-to-ground weaponry, the air force said in a statement.

In July, the US Defence Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress that the F-16s would come with 200 Sidewinder and 500 AIM-120C5 air-to-air missiles plus 800 general purpose 2,000 and 500-pound bombs.

The two governments signed the letter of offer and acceptance in Islamabad on Saturday. Sept 30, but it is not clear when these new fighters would be delivered to Pakistan.

One diplomatic source was quoted to have said, "Under the deal, even a day&#8217;s delay could have caused an increase of more than $140 million in the price". The same source also suggested some differences on the money Pakistan had to pay up front. "All the differences, on payment installations, on technical restrictions, have been resolved to satisfactory level," he said.

Asked to define the level of satisfaction, the source said: "Both sides had to accommodate each other before they reached an understanding".

The signing has taken place, even though in the recent weeks several news agencies have reported a delay in pen going to paper due to the US imposing new conditions on the sale. It has been suggested that the jets in question did not have or had reduced electronic warfare (EW) capabilities, which Pakistan had serious issues with.

This jet deal goes back to the 1980s, when Washington initially agreed to sell further F-16s, only to scrap the accord after sanctions were applied on Pakistan for pursuing it&#8217;s nuclear weapons program."

http://www.f-16.net/news_article2002.html


----------



## Najam Khan

Will anyone expain me the difference between F-16 bk-50/52 and bk-52+....

What id the meaning of that "plus"....i have mostly seen HAF F-16's pics having caption F-16 bk-52+,is this any kind of upgraded bk-52 F-16???


----------



## blain2

NAjAM Khan said:


> Will anyone expain me the difference between F-16 bk-50/52 and bk-52+....
> 
> What id the meaning of that "plus"....i have mostly seen HAF F-16's pics having caption F-16 bk-52+,is this any kind of upgraded bk-52 F-16???



50/52+ denotes the capability to carry JDAMs, APG-68(V9) and HMCS among other upgrades over 50/52. Although many of the older 52's are also getting the V9 retroactive.


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## ahussains

So its clear now that we are not getting the F-16 New or Used and we are not getting MLU Kits Too..

What U people think ...


----------



## ahussains

can any one let me know when PAF is getting its First AWACS .. Erieye on SAAB 2000 and according to me i that PIA is also getting some SAAB for its Fleet too..


----------



## blain2

ahussains said:


> can any one let me know when PAF is getting its First AWACS .. Erieye on SAAB 2000 and according to me i that PIA is also getting some SAAB for its Fleet too..



First Erieye delivery is slated for around end of 2008.


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## falcone

Check this out:

"ITT Avionics, Clifton, N.J., is being awarded a $78,006,082 firm-fixed-price and time and materials contract. This requirement is for Foreign Military Sales of the AN/ALQ-173 (V) advanced integrated defense electronics warfare to the country of Pakistan. This electronic warfare system will be used on the F-16 aircraft being procured under separate acquisition by the F-16 program office. Associated spares, support equipment, training, engineering services, flight test support and data are also being acquired under this contract. At this time, $39,003,041 has been obligated. Solicitations began February 2007 and negotiations were complete March 2007. This work will be complete January 2010."


----------



## falcone

Something else (not necessarily relevant to the F-16 but important amyway):
"McDonnell Douglas Corp., a wholly owned subsidiary of The Boeing Co., St. Louis, Mo., is being awarded a $191,362,762 firm-fixed-priced contract for the procurement of four Standoff Land Attack Missile-Expanded Response (SLAM-ER) exercise missiles retrofitted from SLAMs to SLAM-ERs for the U.S. Navy. This contract also provides for the procurement of 48 SLAM-ER tactical missiles (Turkey) and 2 each SLAM-ER Guidance Sections (Turkey); SLAM-ER Warhead Sections (Turkey); SLAM-ER Sustainer Sections (Turkey); SLAM-ER Control Sections (Turkey); SLAM-ER Exercise Missiles (Turkey); SLAM-ER Captive Air Training Missiles (Turkey); Harpoon Exercise Sections (Japan); Harpoon Exercise/Warhead Containers (Japan); and Harpoon Captive Air Training Missile (CATM-84) (Ballistic Air Test Vehicle-uninstrumented) (Korea) for Foreign Military Sales. In addition, this contract provides for the procurement of 3 SLAM-ER Instrumented Recoverable Air Test Vehicles (Turkey), 59 SLAM-ER All Up Round (AUR) Missile Containers (Turkey), *40 Harpoon Tactical Block II Encapsulated AURs* (*Pakistan (30)* and Korea (10)), 15 Harpoon Tactical Block II Air Launch AURs (Korea), *40 Harpoon Encapsulated AUR containers (Pakistan (30)* and Korea (10)), 9 Harpoon Air Launch AUR Containers (Korea), and 6 Harpoon Guidance Section Containers (Japan) for Foreign Military Sales. Work is expected to be completed in December 2011. Contract funds will not expire at the end of the current fiscal year. This contract was not competitively procured. This contract combines purchases for the U.S. Navy ($3,749,208; 1.96%) and the Governments of Turkey ($79,150,963; 41.36%); *Pakistan ($63,666,450; 33.27%)*; Korea ($43,974,637); and Japan ($821,504; 0.43%) under the Foreign Military Sales Program."


----------



## falcone

> Originally posted by *ahussains*
> Erieye on SAAB 2000 and according to me i that PIA is also getting some SAAB for its Fleet too..



PIA ran trials with the Saab 2000, but it ultimately chose the ATR-42-500.


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## falcone

Work has started on the Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems for the new F-16s (as indicated here):

"Boeing Co., St Louis, Mo., is being awarded a $68,781,989 indefinite delivery/indefinite quantity, firm-fixed-price contract. This action provides for *Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS)* Full Rate Production 4 (FRP 4) for the USAF F-15, and F-16, MACH Brooks, the Navy F/A-18 platforms, and foreign military sales countries. This effort supports foreign military sales to F-16 Poland, F-16 Belgium, *F-16 Pakistan*, F-16 Greece, F/A-18 Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF), F/A-18 Switzerland, and F/A-18 Canada. At this time, total funds have been obligated. This work will be complete December 2009."


----------



## Neo

*Electronic Warfare System Upgrade for Pakistani F-16 Fighter Jets *
Thursday April 05, 2007 

Karachi: ITT Avionics, Clifton, N.J has received a $78 million firm-fixed-price contract for Foreign Military Sales of the AN/ALQ-173 (V) advanced integrated defense electronics warfare to Pakistan.

The electronic warfare system will be used on the F-16 aircraft being procured under separate acquisition by the F-16 program office.

Associated spares, support equipment, training, engineering services, flight test support and data are also being acquired under the said contract. According to reports the project will be accomplished in January 2010.

http://www.paktribune.com/news/index.shtml?174188


----------



## falcone

New info on the AIM-9M's:

"Raytheon Missile Systems, Tucson, Ariz., is being awarded a $30,141,985 modification to a previously awarded firm-fixed price contract (N00019-03-C-0003) for the upgrade of 268 *AIM-9M *missiles for the *Governments of Pakistan (200)*, Malaysia (57), and Korea (11); and for 229 Circuit Card Assembly kits for the Government of Canada. Work is expected to be completed in April 2009. Contract funds will not expire at the end of the current fiscal year. This contract combines purchases for the *Governments of Pakistan ($21,355,000; 70.8%)*; Malaysia ($6,086,175; 20.2%); Canada ($1,526,285; 5.1%) and Korea ($1,174,525; 3.9%) under the Foreign Military Sales Program."


----------



## falcone

Sniper Targeting Pods:

" Lockheed Martin Missile and Fire Control â Orlando, Orlando, Fla., is being awarded a $54,561,370 firm-fixed-price contract to provide for *sniper targeting pods in the amount of 22 each and associated support for foreign military sales requirements to Pakistan*. At this time, $27,280,685 have been obligated. Solicitations began March 2007 and negotiations were complete April 2007. This work will be complete December 2010."


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## falcone

This is a follow up to my last post:

"Sniper targeting pods for Pakistan Air Force
May 1, 2007
Lockheed Martin Missile and Fire Control - Orlando, Orlando, Fla., is being awarded a $54,561,370 firm-fixed-price contract to provide for Sniper targeting pods in the amount of 22 each and associated support for foreign military sales requirements to Pakistan. 

Sniper is the U.S. Air Force's advanced targeting pod (ATP). Its outstanding performance is the result of a superior optical bed design combined with advanced image processing algorithms. 

Demonstrating exceptional stability and pointing accuracy in U.S. Air Force flight tests, the pod performed exceptionally well throughout the entire F-16 flight envelope, including the supersonic region. A precision targeting system in a single, lightweight, affordable pod, Sniper ATP is designed for current and future fighter aircraft.
Incorporating a high-resolution, mid-wave third-generation FLIR; a dual-mode laser; and a CCD-TV, along with a laser spot tracker and a laser marker, the Sniper ATP vastly improves target detection/identification. 

The advanced image processing algorithms, combined with rock-steady stabilization techniques, outperform the best systems in service today. Fully compatible with the latest standoff weaponry, the pod provides automatic tracking and laser designation of tactical size targets via real-time imagery presented on cockpit displays. 

Likewise, the supersonic, low-observable design results in a substantial reduction in drag and weight.

At this time, $27,280,685 have been obligated. Solicitations began March 2007 and negotiations were complete April 2007.This work will be complete December 2010."

http://www.****************/news/publish/airforce/Sniper_targeting_pods_for_Pakistan100011620.php 

The Sniper Targeting Pods should augment the ATLIS Laser-designating pods already in the PAF's inventory.


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## Keysersoze

I have read on another forum (from two very knowledgeable sources) that the current blk 52 can be upgraded with a APG-80 radar. The "spine" is not used on a lot of the blk 60's (It contains envionmental control systems for the radar on the twin seater only) The Israeli Sufa's have it and it is rumoured to be some sort of "wild weasel" or ECM system. 
On the single seat models this ECS is in the dorsal fin fairing.

The Blk 60 was entirely "off the shelf" components so if the needs arise I am sure they could upgrade the Blk 52's (Or some of them)


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## ahussains

Nice information buddy ,, we talk lot about the technical ability of the F-16 after the MLU upgrades .. Are they really serious and giving this to us ?


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## araz

Keysersoze said:


> I have read on another forum (from two very knowledgeable sources) that the current blk 52 can be upgraded with a APG-80 radar. The "spine" is not used on a lot of the blk 60's (It contains envionmental control systems for the radar on the twin seater only) The Israeli Sufa's have it and it is rumoured to be some sort of "wild weasel" or ECM system.
> On the single seat models this ECS is in the dorsal fin fairing.
> 
> The Blk 60 was entirely "off the shelf" components so if the needs arise I am sure they could upgrade the Blk 52's (Or some of them)



Keysersoze,
According to Pshamim of Pakdef.info, who showed a transcript form a guy in LM, no F16 Bl 52 has been upgraded to carry APG80. I would tend to rely on his info as it is usually very accurate.He did say that it does not mean that it cannot happen, but someone would have to foot the bill for all the research that would have to be undertaken. This would make it a prohibitive prospect for PAF. my 2ps worth.
Wa Salam
Araz


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## Keysersoze

araz said:


> Keysersoze,
> According to Pshamim of Pakdef.info, who showed a transcript form a guy in LM, no F16 Bl 52 has been upgraded to carry APG80. I would tend to rely on his info as it is usually very accurate.He did say that it does not mean that it cannot happen, but someone would have to foot the bill for all the research that would have to be undertaken. This would make it a prohibitive prospect for PAF. my 2ps worth.
> Wa Salam
> Araz



Thanks Araz 
I am aware of mr P's credentials and would take the info as being trustworthy. However I was merely pointing out that it is "possible" to upgrade the f-16's to that standard. There was a debate somewhere on this forum that the spine (which was thought by some to contain equipment for the APG-80) would be required for the radar to be fitted. 
The price of course would be quite prohibitive as you and others have stated.


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## Neo

GD F-16C Cockpit.


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## Neo

A close up picture.


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## EagleEyes

*$68.8M Multi-national Order for JHMCS Fighter Pilot Helmets*


Boeing in St Louis, MO received a $68.8 million indefinite-delivery/ indefinite-quantity, firm-fixed-price contract for Full Rate Production Lot 4 (FRP 4) Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS). At this time, total funds have been obligated. Work will be complete December 2009. The Headquarters Air Force Materiel Command at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, OH issued the contract (F33657-01-D-0026/Delivery Order 0058). The systems will be used on USAF F-15s and F-16s, MACH Brooks, the USN's F/A-18 platforms, and foreign military sales to Poland (F/16s), Belgium (F-16s), Pakistan (F-16s), Greece (F-16s), Royal Australian Air Force (F/A-18s), Switzerland (F/A-18s), and Canada (F/A-18s).

DID has covered the Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS) before, from its revolutionary effect on air combat when used with 4th generation SRAAMs like the AIM-9X Sidewinder, AA-11 Archer et. al., to the program's rocky but ultimately successful history. JHMCS helmets are now a common request from countries who are upgrading their US-made fighters (as DID noted, Canada is the latest as part of its Phase 2 CF-18 upgrade).

Boeing has contracted for more than 2,000 JHMCS systems over the past six years. They are the prime contractor and integrator for JHMCS, which is produced by the Rockwell Collins/ Elbit joint venture Vision Systems International, LLC, based in San Jose, CA.


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## Neo

Its a multi-national order, I wonder if our entire fleet of (possibly) 96 F-16's will have the JHMCS Fighter Pilot Helmets or just the new ones.


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## Interceptor

*Taking aim*

*Pakistan is target of weapons deal that could be worth over $50m*

* 01June 2007*

BY CHRIS NELSON

ORLANDO, Fla. â The U.S. government awarded a contract last month to Lockheed Martin Corp.'s missiles division to sell jet-fighter, weapon-targeting hardware to the Pakistani military â the latest in a string of global arms sales for the company.

The contract, which Lockheed officials announced May 14, calls for the company's Orlando-based Missiles and Fire Control Business Development unit to build 18 Sniper XR advanced targeting pods for Pakistan's fleet of F-16 fighter jets. 

The deal includes spare parts and training services. Financial terms were not disclosed, but the deal could be worth more than $50 million, based on the value of previous contracts. It reflects the U.S. government's ongoing efforts to equip foreign militaries it considers allies in the fight against terrorist groups such as Al-Qaeda, according to officials close to the deal.





Lockheed Martin Corp. signed a deal to supply 18 Sniper XR advanced targeting pods to Pakistan for use on its fleet of F-16 fighter jets. The Sniper XR pod, shown above on a U.S. F-16, enables a pilot to track down and fire at enemy targets from a distance. Photo courtesy of Lockheed Martin Corp.

"This sale culminates a two-year combined effort by Lockheed Martin's Missiles and Fire Control and Aeronautics businesses to upgrade the precision attack capability of one of our key allies," Ken Fuhr, director of Fixed Wing Targeting Programs at the missiles division, said. "Sniper continues to demonstrate exceptional performance in meeting the requirements and expectations of the war fighter."

The Bethesda, Md.-based company is the world's largest defense contractor, with an international payroll of more than 140,000 people. It is divided into five business segments: aeronautics, which includes the F-16 and F-22 fighters; electronic systems, encompassing everything from missiles and submarine warfare systems to homeland security systems, radar and postal automation systems; space systems, which includes satellites, strategic missiles and airborne defense systems; and integrated systems, which makes command, control and communication systems and reconnaissance/surveillance systems; and information and technology services.






The laser-based missile-guidance system enables pilots to track down and shoot at enemies from beyond the range of fire. It incorporates a high-resolution, forward-looking infrared camera that takes pictures using the infrared portion of the electromagnetic spectrum, a laser spot tracker and a color-capture television display for the pilot.

"Sniper allows pilots to identify [airborne] threats and either pass that information along to ground forces, or, if the pilot is in a situation where he is allowed to engage the enemy, he can do so," Lockheed Martin spokesman Craig Vanbebber said. "It keeps pilots out of harm's way â they can see the enemy before the enemy can shoot."

The pod itself measures 11.9 inches in diameter, 94 inches in length and weighs 397 pounds; it is bolted to the underside of the jet and provides the pilot a wide view of the horizon.

Sniper is currently used by the U.S. Air Force and other foreign militaries on the F-15, F-16 and F-18 fighter jets; the A-10 Thunderbolt, a single-seat, twin-engine attack jet; the B-1 Lancer long-range bomber and the Harrier GR9 jet fighter.

The Pakistan contract is the fourth such international deal in as many months that Lockheed has reeled in for Sniper. In April, the company received a contract worth an estimated $100 million to supply the Canadian military with the system. Other recent international customers include the United Kingdom, Norway, Oman, Belgium, Poland and Singapore.

The deal drew immediate criticism from U.S. lawmakers, chief among them U.S. Rep. Frank Pallone, Democrat from New Jersey, who derided it as nothing more than a reward to Pakistan for providing moral support to terror groups fighting India.

"I'm opposed to all military assistance to Pakistan â we first allowed it in the aftermath of 9/11 â but my view is we should be providing economic development aid to Pakistan, and not military assistance."

Pallone, the founder and former co-chair of the Congressional Caucus on India and Indian Americans, expressed skepticism about Pakistan's efforts to reduce terrorist activities within its borders and along the country's shared border with Afghanistan, which is where Al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden is believed to be hiding.

"There are a lot of indications that Pakistan has not been that helpful in the war on terror. They continue to allow Al-Qaeda to operate there and just really haven't stepped up to the plate on this," he said.

Pallone also accused U.S. President George W. Bush of not allowing Congress the opportunity to study the transaction before its completion. The Bush administration considers Pakistan a valuable ally in the ongoing search for terrorists; as such, it argued that the nation deserves U.S. military support.

"The problem is [Congress] doesn't get to vote on this â we don't vote on these kinds of transfers," Pallone said. "On many occasions I don't even know what we're transferring to Pakistan; we get no information about what is going on. Sometimes I find out about these deals by reading the newspaper the next day."






Lockheed Martin Corp. has signed a recent deal to supply Pakistan with 18 Sniper XR advanced targeting pods, above, for the countryâs fleet of F-16 fighter jets. The deal includes spare parts and training and could be worth about $50 million. Photo courtesy of Lockheed Martin Corp.

http://www.indusbusinessjournal.com...91&tier=4&id=7173522717644C5EAD5BA299607978A5


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## EagleEyes

> "The problem is [Congress] doesn't get to vote on this &#8212; we don't vote on these kinds of transfers," Pallone said. "On many occasions I don't even know what we're transferring to Pakistan; we get no information about what is going on. Sometimes I find out about these deals by reading the newspaper the next day."



Seems like Pallone is getting too much cash from India?


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## Neo

> Pallone, the founder and former co-chair of the Congressional Caucus on India and Indian Americans...[/quite]
> Enough said...


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## ARSENAL6

blain2 said:


> 50/52+ denotes the capability to carry JDAMs, APG-68(V9) and HMCS among other upgrades over 50/52. Although many of the older 52's are also getting the V9 retroactive.





what are those upgrade
what are they used for


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## solid snake

Guys, I am a Wikipedia editor and would like to update Pakistan's aircraft fleet chart.

I would love to know the following info if anyone knows:

1. How many F-16 A's is Pakistan getting from this deal?
2. How many F-16 B's is Pakistan getting from this deal?
3. How many F-16 C's is Pakistan getting from this deal?
4. How many F-16 D's is Pakistan getting from this deal?

I'm talking about the embargoed aircraft and the new aircraft which will be delivered to the PAF, not the MLU's. Basically, I need the breakdown of the F-16 models being acquired in this deal so I can update the fleet chart on Wikipedia.


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## blain2

solid snake said:


> Guys, I am a Wikipedia editor and would like to update Pakistan's aircraft fleet chart.
> 
> I would love to know the following info if anyone knows:
> 
> 1. How many F-16 A's is Pakistan getting from this deal?
> 2. How many F-16 B's is Pakistan getting from this deal?
> 3. How many F-16 C's is Pakistan getting from this deal?
> 4. How many F-16 D's is Pakistan getting from this deal?
> 
> I'm talking about the embargoed aircraft and the new aircraft which will be delivered to the PAF, not the MLU's. Basically, I need the breakdown of the F-16 models being acquired in this deal so I can update the fleet chart on Wikipedia.



Sorry, I may not be of much help but the breakdown is not known for either the C/D block or the A/Bs. What I can tell you is that PAF is still looking for A/Bs currently with the help of USAF that would make sense for it to put through MLU. And *ALL* PAF F-16 A/Bs (the ones already in inventory and those that are being acquired) will undergo MLU (PAF has already requested the MLU Kits for the all of the A/Bs).


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## Janbaz

blain2 said:


> Sorry, I may not be of much help but the breakdown is not known for either the C/D block or the A/Bs. What I can tell you is that PAF is still looking for A/Bs currently with the help of USAF that would make sense for it to put through MLU. And *ALL* PAF F-16 A/Bs (the ones already in inventory and those that are being acquired) will undergo MLU (PAF has already requested the MLU Kits for the all of the A/Bs).



Very true sir, it is a soup of aircraft plus with the options of 33 more Blk 52+, its even more of a mystrey. Only the next 2 to 3 years will unveal what we really are acquiring!


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## nina

genmirajborgza786 said:


> one thing that i have read somewhere it say that the complete package(the $ 5.1 bllion sale of the f-16,s and missile) will be delivered with in a span of total 30 month,s or 18 months we cant afford that risk plain and simple not even two months the packages must be delivered in the shortest span of time or immidietly we cannot let even one sphare parts of the defence package remaining in the united states. given usa's track record say even if the deal is approved and we wait for 18 to 30 months(that will be very foolish and unpatriotic in the first palce) and in this time we have a political change say musharraf is ousted WHAT THEN?????? the u.s will just stop the shipment then and there and we will not get the defence package it will be one of the worst blow,s our countries defence can have, so what i am trying to say here is we should only buy stuff,s from america if they agree to deliver us the item,s right away the shipment should start as soon as the deal is finalized and the f-16,s missile,s the total $5billion f-16,s and defence package) should be in pakistan's possession imidietly if this is not possible we should not go for this deal($5billion f-16 and missle defence package deal with the U.S.A) as we cannot afford to trust the amaricans after the experience of batrayal of the preveous f-16,s deal in the eighties when they did not supply us the planes even when we had paid them the money for it. it should be now or never. or else we should look elsewhere IMO.



i completely agree with this it is a very good in sight....


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## Keysersoze

nina said:


> i completely agree with this it is a very good in sight....



I think the post you are praising is completely naive Nina. It is nigh on impossible to get things of this nature done quickly.

Aircraft manufacturers do not have a supermarket set-up with exactly the items you want at exactly the time you want it. They build to requirement as otherwise the costs would be even higher. 

Oh and one other thing. A number of those Planes are being given for free (Around 20-30 as they have purchased 60 MLU kits) under excess defence articles. So thats approximately 34 aircraft that will need to be MLUed.


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## falcone

Here is the news we have all been waiting for:

The delivery of the F-16A/Bs has started!

"*US starts delivery of F-16s to Pakistan*

July 10, 2007 (by Asif Shamim) - *The United States on Tuesday started delivery of F-16 aircraft to Pakistan when two were flown from the US & were handed over to the Pakistan Air Force in a ceremony at PAF Mushaf. *

In attendeance at the official ceremony were Chief of the Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mehmood Ahmed, US Ambassador Anne W. Peterson, and large number of senior officers of the PAF.

The F-16s were flown by Commander Central Air Command Lt. Gen. Gary L. North along with another colleague and reached Mushaf after a lengthy flight, which included an 8 hours transit across the Atlantic.

*The handing over formally starts the delivery of the fleet of a dozen aircraft to Pakistan. These aircraft were manufactured in 1990s as part of the Peace Gate III/IV programs, which was withheld after the enforcement of the Pressler amendment. *The aircraft were consequently stored at AMARC (Aircraft Maintenance and Regeneration Center) at Davis-Monthan AFB, Arizona, later these F-16s were utilised by the USAF and USN.

Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mehmood Ahmed said rest of the fleet comprising of 10 aircraft would be given to Pakistan in batches continuing into the middle of next year. "*These are exceptionally used aircraft and are being given to us at very nominal prices*," he said.

He further went on to say this delivery of aircraft to Pakistan was only possible after hectic sessions of negotiations with the USAF. He thanked the chief of US Airforce who graciously made available 12 aircraft for delivery to Pakistan.

*In addition to these aircraft, he said efforts were in hand to get lot of 16 aircraft, which are in use by the US Navy, and these are part of those 28 aircraft for which Pakistan had paid for.*

In the meantime, he said, offers have been made by the US Administration to get similar number of aircraft from the US Air National Guard. But, he said these had been extensively used and would not be feasible to induct into the PAF fleet. 

The 28 aircraft requested were especially manufactured for PAF in line with its requirements as part of the Peace Gate program. 

Air Marshal Tanvir back in 1990s was the Director Operations with the PAF and had been engaged in the manufacture of 28 aircraft and now during his term as PAF Chief the deal is being matured after lapse of over 15 years.

*"After lapse of over 15 years these aircraft are coming home," he said. *

Answering a question, he said induction of F-16s to the PAF fleet would considerably enhance the defence capability of the country&#8217;s air defenders.

He said that the delivery of new F-16 aircraft to Pakistan, which are presently being manufactured, would start in next three years.

*On the renovation and overhaul of the existing fleet of F-16 aircraft, the PAF chief said under the Mid-Life Upgrade (MLU) Program six aircraft of PAF would be overhauled in the US while PAF&#8217;s technicians would also be given training. "We will make every effort to acquire technical know how ultimately enabling us to undertake overhauls and upgrades of the aircraft indigenously," he said.*
Speaking at the formal handing over ceremony, the US Ambassador Ms. Anne W. Peterson said that it was pleasure for her that she was witnessing the handing over ceremony. "This will go a long way in furthering bilateral ties and relations between both countries are on smooth sail."

"The US is proud to be partner of Pakistan and it will continue to assist Pakistan in furthering its defence capabilities," she said.

She said supply of F-16 Pakistan is being undertaken in three phased program inclusive of delivery of 28 used aircraft, handing over of new aircraft and upgrade of existing fleet."

http://www.f-16.net/news_article2419.html

    

Thank God!


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## genmirajborgza786

falcone said:


> Here is the news we have all been waiting for:
> 
> 
> He said that the delivery of new F-16 aircraft to Pakistan, which are presently being manufactured, would start in next three years.
> 
> .html[/URL]
> 
> 
> 
> Thank God!



I have one question regarding the above news see the problem here is the time frame for the deliveries of the F-16's which according to the above news is 3 years, now 3 years is a long wait for sure by the end of 2008 the not so Pakistan friendly Democrats are poised to come back to the white house ( there are high chances of them winning the 2008 national general elections to be held in the USA ) another concern is what is the guarantee that gen.musharraf will still be ruling pakistan then ? say just assuming what if he,s gone? & some anti american govt comes to power in Pakistan what will happen to the remaining F-16's then ? just some food for thought.


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## Keysersoze

genmirajborgza786 said:


> I have one question regarding the above news see the problem here is the time frame for the deliveries of the F-16's which according to the above news is 3 years, now 3 years is a long wait for sure by the end of 2008 the not so Pakistan friendly Democrats are poised to come back to the white house ( there are high chances of them winning the 2008 national general elections to be held in the USA ) another concern is what is the guarantee that gen.musharraf will still be ruling pakistan then ? say just assuming what if he,s gone? & some anti american govt comes to power in Pakistan what will happen to the remaining F-16's then ? just some food for thought.



They would need a reason to cancel the sale. They would not just do it arbitrarily.The last time it was done was after nuclear tests. 

What happens if a Anti-china group comes into power? the likelyhood of a radically anti-American party being allowed to stay in power are highly unlikely.


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## blain2

Neo I guess I stand corrected with regards to where the MLU will happen. Supposedly the first 6 will be done in the US and then eventually the rest in Pakistan thereafter.


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## Neo

blain2 said:


> Neo I guess I stand corrected with regards to where the MLU will happen. Supposedly the first 6 will be done in the US and then eventually the rest in Pakistan thereafter.



Thanks Blain,

Indeed the article is reporting that. I too was under the impression that Tusas of Tukey would perform the upgrade but this is even better! With this know how we'll be able to overhaul our complete F-16 fleet including the new block 52 and probably extend services to other F-16 operatoor like Jordan, UAE, Thailand and Indonesia.

I assume the F-6 Mig Rebuild Factory and Mirage Repair Factory in PAC Kamra will be assigned to perform the MLU3.


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## ARSENAL6

Soilder why should we close our doors 
If America is suppling us with f16 thats good ? no ?

I know in the past the trade sometimes didn't go well
having two technologies is great idea.




Keysersoze said:


> What happens if a Anti-china group comes into power? the likelyhood of a radically anti-American party being allowed to stay in power are highly unlikely.



I couldn't agree more on this statement after going and reading some of the American forums, what they think of Bush, Iraq and the War on Terror


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## genmirajborgza786

Keysersoze said:


> They would need a reason to cancel the sale. They would not just do it arbitrarily.The last time it was done was after nuclear tests.
> 
> What happens if a Anti-china group comes into power? the likelyhood of a radically anti-American party being allowed to stay in power are highly unlikely.



the information that you provided regarding the cancellation,s or sanctions is completely wrong i think the pressler amendment sanction was put in the early 1990's while the nuclear test's were done on may 28th/30th 1998. nearly the end of the 1990,s

sir muradk
salaam sir, can you please tell us more about the pressler amendment regarding the time and sale of the F-16's
thank you


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## genmirajborgza786

nina said:


> i completely agree with this it is a very good in sight....



thank you for the comments
appreciated i also update the forum regarding the rise of Russia you can read some of them i try my best to keep the Russian news and events up to date also do check my economy report,s and borgza,s science and technology updates
thanks


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## Chukkar

Mark Sien said:


> yaar blain, when this technology is available - can you hook me up with too? I need it for my car.  BTW, the IAF still hasn't upgraded their MiG-29 and Mirage 2000s' ECM/EW systems; thus meaning, our F-16A/Bs are still very modern in South Asia.



Incorrect. The MiG-29s have recieved new RWRs and the Mirages per reports recieved the ICMS. And per recent news, both are going to recieve comprehensive upgrades. That apart, almost all IAF aircraft have been seen carrying SPJs and there are at least 4 different types of modern SPJs in IAF service.


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## Muradk

genmirajborgza786 said:


> the information that you provided regarding the cancellation,s or sanctions is completely wrong i think the pressler amendment sanction was put in the early 1990's while the nuclear test's were done on may 28th/30th 1998. nearly the end of the 1990,s
> 
> sir muradk
> salaam sir, can you please tell us more about the pressler amendment regarding the time and sale of the F-16's
> thank you




*A simpler way to explain what Pressler Amendment is* 

On March 28, 1984, this Committee adopted an amendment offered by Sen. Cranston providing that no assistance shall be furnished and `no military equipment or technology shall be sold or transferred to Pakistan' unless the President could first certify that Pakistan does not possess a nuclear explosive device, is not developing a nuclear device, and is not acquiring goods to make such a device. On April 3, 1984, the Committee narrowly voted to reconsider this amendment and adopted instead a substitute offered by Senator Pressler, Mathias and Percy, which tied the continuation of aid and military sales to two certification conditions:
(1) That Pakistan not possess a nuclear explosive device.
(2) That new aid `will reduce significantly the risk' that Pakistan will possess such a device. This text, which was enacted on another bill in August 1985, has come to be called the `Pressler amendment.' 
the following was also discussed after the delivery of F-16s.


*Are Pakistan's F-16's `Nuclear-Capable'? It Depends on Who You Ask*

[Sen. Glenn]--`How about delivery systems? Is there any evidence that Pakistan converted F-16s for possible nuclear delivery use? 

[Gates]--`We know that they are--or we have information that suggests that they're clearly interested in enhancing the ability of the F-16 to delivery weapons safely. But we don't really have--they don't require those changes, I don't think, to deliver a weapon. We could perhaps provide some additional detail in a classified manner.' 

`Assessing ballistic missile proliferation and its control,' report of Center for International Security and Arms Control, Stanford University, November 1991: 

`Pakistani F-16 aircraft could be effective nuclear-delivery vehicles even if Pakistan's nuclear warheads are large and heavy.' 

`Western intelligence sources' cited in U.S. News & World Report, 12 February 1990: 

`The sources say Pakistan, in violation of agreements with Washington, is busily converting U.S.-supplied F-16 fighter planes--60 more are scheduled to be sent this year--into potential nuclear-weapons carriers by outfitting them with special structures attached to the plane's underwing carriage. The structure allows the mounting of a dummy under one wing of the F-16 to balance the weight of the bomb under the other wing.' 

Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense Arthur Hughes, testimony before House Subcommittee, 2 August 1989: 

`In order to deliver a nuclear device with any reasonable degree of accuracy and safety, it first would be necessary to replace the entire wiring package in the aircraft. In addition to building a weapons carriage mount, one would also have to re-do the fire control computer, the stores management system, and mission computer software to allow the weapon to be dropped accurately and to redistribute weight and balance after release. We believe this capability far exceeds the state of the art in Pakistan and could only be accomplished with a major release of data and industrial equipment from the U.S.' 

[Rep. Solarz]--Now, in your testimony, Mr. Hughes, I gather you've said that the F-16s which we have already sold them are not nuclear capable? 

[Hughes]--That's right, sir. 

[Rep. Solarz]--And the planes we're planning to sell will not be configured in such a way that they could deliver nuclear ordnance? 

[Hughes]--That's right, Mr. Chairman. 

Deputy Assistant Secretary of State Teresita Schaffer, testimony before House Subcommittee, 2 August 1989: 

`None of the F-16s Pakistan already owns or is about to purchase is configured for nuclear delivery. Pakistan, moreover, will be obligated by contract not to modify its new acquisitions without the approval of the United States.' 

Views attributed to German Intelligence Agency (BND), in Der Spiegel, 24 July 1989: 

`The Pakistanis have secretly planned to use the fighter aircraft as a delivery system for their bomb. According to a report by the Federal Intelligence Service (BND), relevant tests have already been successfully concluded. The BND has reported to the Chancellor's Office that, using an F-16 model, the Pakistanis have made wind tunnel tests and have designed the shell of the bomb in a way that allows them to install it underneath the wings. At the same time, the detonating mechanism has been improved, so that the weapon can now be used. According to the BND report, the Pakistanis long ago found out how to program the F-16 on-board computer to carry out the relevant flight maneuvers in dropping the bomb. According to the report from Pullach [BND headquarters], they also know how to make the electronic contact between the aircraft and the bomb.' 

Sen. John Glenn, letter to President Ronald Reagan, 5 March 1987: 

`And I believe we should continue to try to provide assistance to the Afghans. But if the price that must now be paid is acceptance of Pakistani nuclear weapons production along with the continued provision of a `made in the U.S.A.' delivery system (F-16s), a combination certain to ultimately erode the national security of the United States and some of its closest allies, then the price is too high.' 

Undersecretary of State James Buckley, testimony before Senate Foreign Relations Committee, 12 November 1981: 

[Sen. Hayakawa]--`Do the F-16's provide Pakistan with a delivery system for nuclear device?' 

[Bukcley]--`Yes they would. But by the same token, that is not the only aircraft that would have that capability. My understanding is that the Mirage III currently possessed by Pakistan, would have the capability of delivering a small nuclear device.' 

E.F. Von Marbod, Director of Defense Security Assistance Agency, testimony before two House subcommittees, 16 September 1981: 

[Solarz]--`I gather the F-16's are technically capable of carrying nuclear weapons. Will the F-16's supplied Pakistan be able to carry nuclear weapons?' 

[Von Marbod]--`Mr. Solarz, all nuclear capabilities will be deleted from these F-16's. All wiring to the pylons, all computer software programs that manage the hardware stores and all cockpit controls that are nuclear-related.' 



*Remember that the American have been implementing the above when ever they want.


From Myth to Reality: Evidence of Pakistan's `Nuclear Restraint'*

Early 1980's--Multiple reports that Pakistan obtained a pre-tested, atomic bomb design from China. 

Early 1980's--Multiple reports that Pakistan obtained bomb-grade enriched uranium from China. 

1980--U.S. Nuclear Export Control Violation: Reexport via Canada (components of inverters used in gas centrifuge enrichment activities). 

1981--U.S. Nuclear Export Control Violation: New York, zirconium (nuclear fuel cladding material). 

1981--AP story cites contents of reported US State Department cable stating `We have strong reason to believe that Pakistan is seeking to develop a nuclear explosives capability * * * Pakistan is conducting a program for the design and development of a triggering package for nuclear explosive devices.' 

1981--Publication of book, Islamic Bomb, citing recent Pakistani efforts to construct a nuclear test site. 

1982/3--Several European press reports indicate that Pakistan was using Middle Eastern intermediaries to acquire bomb parts (13-inch `steel spheres' and `steel petal shapes'). 

1983--Recently declassified US government assessment concludes that `There is unambiguous evidence that Pakistan is actively pursuing a nuclear weapons development program * * * We believe the ultimate application of the enriched uranium produced at Kahuta, which is unsafeguarded, is clearly nuclear weapons.' 

1984--President Zia states that Pakistan has acquired a `very modest' uranium enrichment capability for `nothing but peaceful purposes.' 

1984--President Reagan reportedly warns Pakistan of `grave consequences' if it enriches uranium above 5&#37;. 

1985--ABC News reports that US believes Pakistan has `successfully tested' a `firing mechanism' of an atomic bomb by means of a non-nuclear explosion, and that US krytrons `have been acquired' by Pakistan. 

1985--U.S. Nuclear Export Control Violation: Texas, krytrons (nuclear weapon triggers). 

1985--U.S. Nuclear Export Control Violation: US cancelled license for export of flash x-ray camera to Pakistan (nuclear weapon diagnostic uses) because of proliferation concerns. 

1985/6--Media cites production of highly enriched, bomb-grade uranium in violation of a commitment to the US. 

1986--Bob Woodward article in Washington Post cites alleged DIA report saying Pakistan `detonated a high explosive test device between Sept. 18 and Sept. 21 as part of its continuing efforts to build an implosion-type nuclear weapon;' says Pakistan has produced uranium enriched to a 93.5% level. 

1986--Press reports cite U.S. `Special National Intelligence Estimate' concluding that Pakistan had produced weapons-grade material. 

1986--Commenting on Pakistan's nuclear capability, General Zia tells interviewer, `It is our right to obtain the technology. And when we acquire this technology, the Islamic world will possess it with us.' 

1986--Recently declassified memo to then-Secretary of State Henry Kissinger states, `Despite strong U.S. concern, Pakistan continues to pursue a nuclear explosive capability * * * If operated at its nominal capacity, the Kahuta uranium enrichment plant could produce enough weapons-grade material to build several nuclear devices per year.' 

1987--U.S. Nuclear Export Control Violation: Pennsylvania, maraging steel & beryllium (used in centrifuge manufacture and bomb components). 

1987--London Financial Times reports US spy satellites have observed construction of second uranium enrichment plant in Pakistan. 

1987--Pakistan's leading nuclear scientist states in published interview that `what the CIA has been saying about our possessing the bomb is correct.' 

1987--West German official confirms that nuclear equipment recently seized on way to Pakistan was suitable for `at least 93% enrichment' of uranium; blueprints of uranium enrichment plant also seized in Switzerland. 

1987--U.S. Nuclear Export Control Violation: California, oscilloscopes, computer equipment (useful in nuclear weapon R&D). 

1987--According to photocopy of a reported German foreign ministry memo published in Paris in 1990, UK government official tells German counterpart on European nonproliferation working group that he was `convinced that Pakistan had `a few small' nuclear weapons.' 

1988--President Reagan waives an aid cutoff for Pakistan due to an export control violation; in his formal certification, he confirmed that `material, equipment, or technology covered by that provision was to be used by Pakistan in the manufacture of a nuclear explosive device.' 

1988--Hedrick Smith article in New York Times reports US government sources believe Pakistan has produced enough highly enriched uranium for 4-6 bombs. 

1988--President Zia tells Carnegie Endowment delegation in interview that Pakistan has attained a nuclear capability `that is good enough to create an impression of deterrence.' 

1989--Multiple reports of Pakistan modifying US-supplied F-16 aircraft for nuclear delivery purposes; wind tunnel tests cited in document reportedly from West German intelligence service. 

1989--Test launch of Hatf-2 missile: Payload (500 kilograms) and range (300 kilometers) meets `nuclear-capable' standard under Missile Technology Control Regime. 

1989--CIA Director Webster tells Senate Governmental Affairs Committee hearing that `Clearly Pakistan is engaged in developing a nuclear capability.' 

1989--Media claims that Pakistan acquired tritium gas and tritium facility from West Germany in mid-1980's. 

1989--ACDA unclassified report cites Chinese assistance to missile program in Pakistan. 

1989--UK press cites nuclear cooperation between Pakistan and Iraq. 

1989--Article in Nuclear Fuel states that the United States has issued `about 100 specific communiques to the West German Government related to planned exports to the Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission and its affiliated organizations;' exports reportedly included tritium and a tritium recovery facility. 

1989--Article in Defense & Foreign Affairs Weekly states `sources close to the Pakistani nuclear program have revealed that Pakistani scientists have now perfected detonation mechanisms for a nuclear device.' 

1989--Reporting on a recent customs investigation, West German magazine Stern reports, `since the beginning of the eighties over 70 [West German] enterprises have supplied sensitive goods to enterprises which for years have been buying equipment for Pakistan's ambitious nuclear weapons program.' 

1989--Gerard Smith, former US diplomat and senior arms control authority, claims US has turned a `blind eye' to proliferation developments Pakistan in and Israel. 

1989--Senator Glenn delivers two lengthy statements addressing Pakistan's violations of its uranium enrichment commitment to the United States and the lack of progress on nonproliferation issues from Prime Minister Bhutto's democratically elected government after a year in office; Glenn concluded, `There simply must be a cost to non-compliance--when a solemn nuclear pledge is violated, the solution surely does not lie in voiding the pledge.' 

1989-1990--reports of secret construction of unsafeguard nuclear research reactor; components from Europe. 

1990--US News cites `western intelligence sources' claiming Pakistan recently `cold-tested' a nuclear device and is now building a plutonium production reactor; article says Pakistan is engaged in nuclear cooperation with Iran. 

1990--French magazine publishes photo of West German government document citing claim by UK official that British government believes Pakistan already possesses `a few small' nuclear weapons; cites Ambassador Richard Kennedy claim to UK diplomat that Pakistan has broken its pledge to the US not to enrich uranium over 5%. 

1990--London Sunday Times cites growing U.S. and Soviet concerns about Pakistani nuclear program; paper claims F-16 aircraft are being modified for nuclear delivery purposes; claims US spy satellites have observed `heavily armed convoys' leaving Pakistan uranium enrichment complex at Kahuta and heading for military airfields. 

1990--Pakistani biography of top nuclear scientist (Dr. Abdul Qadeer Khan and the Islamic Bomb), claims US showed `model' of Pakistani bomb to visiting Pakistani diplomat as part of unsuccessful nonproliferation effort. 

1990--Defense & Foreign Affairs Weekly reports `US officials now believe that Pakistan has quite sufficient computing power in country to run all the modeling necessary to adequately verify the viability of the country's nuclear weapons technology.' 

1990--Dr. A.Q. Khan, father of Pakistan's bomb, receives `Man of the Nation Award.' 

1990--Washington Post documents 3 recent efforts by Pakistan to acquire special arc-melting furnaces with nuclear and missile applications. 

1991--Wall Street Journal says Pakistan is buying nuclear-capable M-11 missile from China. 

1991--Sen. Moynihan says in television interview, `Last July [1990] the Pakistanis machined 6 nuclear Pakistan warheads. And they've still got them.' 

1991--Time quotes businessman, `BCCI is functioning as the owners' representative for Pakistan's nuclear-bomb project.' 

1992--Pakistani foreign secretary publicly discusses Pakistan's possession of `cores' of nuclear devices. 

Something very Interesting:
Shockingly, testimony by Secretary of State James Baker this year revealed that the Ragen / Bush administration has continued to allow Pakistan to purchase munitions through commercial transactions, despite the explicit, unambiguous intent of Congress that `no military equipment or technology shall be sold or transferred to Pakistan.' These sales may have included spare parts for F-16 aircraft. 

*Pakistan US Relation*


Pakistan - US relations can be divided into three distinct phases: The Cold War period; the years of crisis in the relationship from 1990 to 1993; and the current phase of repairing, rebuilding and redefining relations in the post-Cold War era. To review the latter, it is necessary to place the current phase in its historical context.

The foreign policy of Pakistan, from the very inception of the country

over half a century ago, was driven by the quest for security. Pakistan's geographical location and historic legacy confronted the country with a grave threat to its security and territorial integrity. The Kashmir dispute, bequeathed by British colonial rule, and India's hegemonic ambitions placed us in a perpetual state of confrontation with New Delhi. To make matters worse, India's relations with the then Soviet Union, a power with expansionist designs in the region, compounded Pakistan's security dilemma. The partnership between Pakistan and the US can therefore be described as a strategic necessity during the Cold War.

Throughout the four decades of the Cold War, the two countries forged a partnership to contain Soviet expansionism, and for Pakistan by extension, Indian hegemonic impulses backed by Moscow. As a result, South Asia became deeply enmeshed in the structure of superpower rivalry, while Pakistan's membership of military pacts like SEATO and CENTO earned it the pejorative designation of the most allied ally' of the US.

This Cold War relationship was in many ways a subset of the two countries' other strategic concerns. Pakistan's being India, while for the Americans it was the containment of communism. The Soviet occupation of Afghanistan in 1979 however, brought a convergence of Pakistan and US interests and concerns.

The Soviet invasion placed Pakistan in a tenuous two-front situation: between the Kremlin's allies to its east and west. The close partnership forged between Pakistan and the U.S. helped the Afghans resist Soviet occupation of their country, eventually leading to the rollback of communism. It was no accident that in the very year that the Soviets were forced to retreat from Afghanistan, the Berlin war crumbled in Europe. The Afghan war, therefore, turned out to be an event in the chain of events that led to the end of the Cold War.

But the end of the Cold War did not leave South Asia in a state of peace and stability. Indeed Pakistan was left on its own to clear the debris of the last of the Cold War conflicts, in the shape of over two million Afghan refugees, proliferation of sophisticated weapons and the profusion of narcotics which spread from the uncontrolled areas of Afghanistan to parts of Pakistan.

The end of the Cold War also persuaded the US to re-evaluate and downgrade its relationship with Pakistan on the ground that the new global environment did not warrant the old strategic partnership. An immediate and far reaching consequence was the emergence of differences between the two countries on the nuclear issue. In October 1990, economic and military sanctions were imposed on Pakistan under the* Pressler Amendment*, a country-specific law that singles out only one nation on the nuclear issue. One consequence of the Pressler sanctions was the US decision to withhold Pakistan military equipment contracted prior to 1990, worth about $1.2 billion, even though Pakistan had paid for this.

In Pakistan's perception it was no accident that the application of sanctions coincided with the end of the Cold War. The Pressler sanctions were applied when Pakistan's co-operation was no longer needed following the demise of the Soviet Union.

At any rate, this punitive action triggered the crisis phase in relations, thus also rendering more difficult the task of making a smooth transition to a post-Cold War relationship 1990-1993 became crisis-ridden years. Instead of the two countries directing their energy and focus to craft a new relationship geared to embracing the future, both became bogged down in fire-fighting one crisis after another in their ties - over the nuclear issue, terrorism and also narcotics. Relations sunk to an all-time low when Washington threatened in 1992/93 to designate Pakistan as a state sponsor of terrorism. Then in the summer of 1993 additional sanctions were imposed on Pakistan under the MTCR (Missile Technology Control Regime) for allegedly receiving missile technology from China.

As a result, the bilateral interaction became virtually confined to crisis-management or damage-limitation efforts. The relationship seemed to be a state of free fall. The only silver lining in this downslide was Pakistan-US collaboration in international peace-keeping operations, notably in Somalia.

The irony about U.S. non-proliferation policy in South Asia was that

while the impetus for proliferation at every step came from India, it was Pakistan, and not India, that was subjected to penalties, embargoes and sanctions.

Perversely Pakistan became the victim of penalties for what India had

done in 1974 with its explosion of a nuclear device. US nonproliferation laws such as the 1976 Symington Amendment which was later modified by the 1977 Glenn Amendment, called for halting economic or military assistance to any country which delivered or acquired after 1976 nuclear enrichment materials or technology, unless it accepted fullscope safeguards. This meant that India which had already acquired a reprocessing capability was excluded from the ambit of American non-proliferation laws. 

The Pressler Amendment enacted in 1985, specifically prohibited U.S. assistance or military sales to Pakistan unless annual Presidential certification was issued that Pakistan did not possess a nuclear explosive device. This certification was denied in October 1990, triggering wideranging sanctions against Pakistan.

In those crisis years, Pakistan maintained that despite differences over the nuclear issue, the two countries should act to limit further damage to their relations. Bilateral ties, Islamabad argued, ought not be viewed though the single and exclusive prism of nuclear proliferation and that a second track should be evolved to make progress in areas of convergence. Pakistan and the US shared a number of goals, at the regional and global levels, that made it essential not to allow relations becoming hostage to a single issue.

Pakistan also argued that the goal of nuclear nonproliferation could only be advanced in the region on an equitable and non-discriminatory basis and not by the imposition of penalties on one country, while overlooking the nuclear conduct of the country that started this race in the first place. Pakistan's security concerns vis-a-vis India, which had already demonstrated its nuclear weapons capability in 1974, and which enjoyed a conventional military force ratio of three to one, warranted the pursuit of a regional approach to nonproliferation. Pakistan could not, therefore, be expected to make unilateral concessions. While the US accepted this logic in principle, the continued application of Pressler sanctions was at variance with this declared policy.


Against this troubled backdrop, efforts to normalise ties got underway

in the Fall of 1993. The efforts to repair ties were the cumulative result of a variety of factors which included a new appreciation in Washington &#209; on the part of both the US Executive and Legislature &#209; of the security concerns that drove Pakistan's nuclear programme, as well as recognition of the counterproductive outcome of the sanctions approach. 

A significant factor that contributed to the efforts to re-engage, was Pakistan's economic liberalisation programme. The moves towards a

market-based economy provided the impetus to efforts to chart new areas of collaboration in promoting trade and investment. Economic liberalisation became the vehicle for significant re-engagement and helped to extricate the relationship from the undimensional nonproliferation groove it had long been stuck in.

Defence Secretary William Perry's visit to Pakistan in January 1995 was another step forward in the process to mend ties in the defence and security sphere. During this visit, the Pakistan-US Defence Consultative

Group on security issues, which had not met since 1990, was revived.

Secretary Perry returned to America to also publicly declare that Pressler had become a blunt instrument, that had not achieved the policy goals of its supporters. He also concluded that Pressler was hindering rather than helping to avert a nuclear race in the subcontinent.

This appreciation, in the context of the Clinton Administration's promise of evenhandedness towards South Asia, set the stage for the progress achieved in the highest level exchange between the two countries since the end of the Cold War: the meeting in April 1995, between former Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto and President Bill Clinton. 

Referring to the unfairness of the Pressler approach, and specifically to the embargoed military equipment, President Clinton indicated his desire to take corrective action to put relations back on a normal course. In acknowledging that a broad subcontinental and regional approach was required to pursue US nonproliferation objectives in South Asia, the American President signalled a shift away from the punitive approach that had been pursued thus far by the Washington. In the joint statement issued at the conclusion of this visit, President Clinton declared his intention to work with Congress to revise the Pressler Amendment.

A critical dimension of the efforts to restore normalcy in relations was the lead role played by the US Congress. Indeed it can even be said that what encouraged President Clinton to take the public stance that he did, and his Administration to undertake subsequent steps, was the growing recognition on Capital Hill that the Pressler issue needed to be re-visited, so that a fraying relationship could be restored and revitalised.

In May 1995, the Senate Foreign Relations Committee adopted by a near unanimous, bipartisan vote, an amendment moved by Republican Senator, Hank Brown to ease Pressler sanctions. This sought to remove from the purview of Pressler all non-military assistance. In the House of Representatives, a similar effort was spearheaded by the newly elected Republican Chairman of the House International Relations Sub-Committee on South Asia, Doug Bereuter, who proposed an amendment to remove Pressler restrictions on all forms of non-military assistance.

These actions proved to be vital building blocks in the laborious process of American law making leading to the adoption, later in the year, of the Brown Amendment. The amendment, sponsored by a Republican Senator and promoted by a Democratic Administration, reflected a bipartisan consensus in Washington to repair the bilateral relationship by taking the first significant step towards ending the inequitious treatment meted out to Pakistan under the discriminatory Pressler Amendment. 

This modification of the Pressler law removed from its ambit all non-military assistance, as well as provision of IMET (International Military Education Training), while providing, in a one-time waiver of the Pressler Amendment, the release of embargoed military equipment worth about $368 million. Not released under this law were the 28 F-16s for which President Clinton made a good-faith pledge to reimburse Pakistan the money it had paid for the fighter aircraft.

From Pakistan's point of view, more important than the material benefits of the Brown Amendment was its symbolic significance and political message. It marked the first concrete step taken by the United States in five years to remove a major obstacle in the conduct of Pak-US relations. The amendment did not condition improvement of relations with Pakistan on any nuclear quid pro quo. And it indicated a desire on the part of both Congress and the Administration to normalise ties with a country deemed to be strategically important.

The potential for this relationship to evolve is considerable. But it is apparent that there are significant divergences between Pakistan and the US on a range of issues, especially nuclear and missile proliferation in the region and Washington's India and Kashmir policies.

An impression gaining ground in Pakistan in recent years is of the US tilting its position on Kashmir towards India by tacitly endorsing the status quo. However, if Washington advises Pakistan to accept the unjust status quo, this would be short-sighted policy. The Kashmiri people will continue to resist Indian occupation at varying levels of intensity. Kashmir will remain an open wound in relations between India and Pakistan unless a serious and concerted effort is made to resolve this problem.

Pakistan has suggested a genuine dialogue to resolve the Kashmir issue.

In this dialogue the APHC (All Parties Hurriyat Conference) should be associated. Simultaneously there should be a de-escalation in Indian repression and the gradual withdrawal of Indian troops. But genuine negotiations rather than just the facade of bilateral talks need to be pursued on Kashmir. To be durable, a settlement will have to be based on the wishes of the Kashmiri people.

On nonproliferation, the need is for the US to adopt an evenhanded approach, in words and in deeds. The lack of evenhandedness has encouraged Indian nuclear escalation. Unless an evenhanded approach is adopted, India will continue its nuclear escalation and Pakistan will be obliged to respond.

How Kashmir, India's nuclear ambitions and security issues are addressed and the positions that the US takes on these will not determine the future course and substance of Pakistan-US relations. For the moment, the bilateral relationship having moved out of the crisis mode, remains in search of substance.


The Article is no way or any Insult our Indian members on PFF.
MK


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## Keysersoze

genmirajborgza786 said:


> the information that you provided regarding the cancellation,s or sanctions is completely wrong i think the pressler amendment sanction was put in the early 1990's while the nuclear test's were done on may 28th/30th 1998. nearly the end of the 1990,s
> 
> sir muradk
> salaam sir, can you please tell us more about the pressler amendment regarding the time and sale of the F-16's
> thank you



Sanctions under the 1985 Pressler Amendment, banning military assistance to Pakistan, in the absence of an annual presidential determination that Pakistan "does not possess a nuclear explosive device." Waivable under Brownback Amendment II.

Status: These restrictions were triggered in 1990, when former President George H.W. Bush declined to make the necessary determination, and largely remain in force today. IMET and non-military aid were permitted in a 1996 modification to the Pressler Amendment. In addition, in 1996, under a one-time waiver of the provision, the Clinton administration approved the sale of $368 million worth of military hardware to Islamabad (but roughly $100 million in sales was never provided because of the controversy over China's transfer of "ring magnets" for Pakistan's uranium enrichment plant. See discussion of the Symington Amendment, below.) Although the original provisions of the Pressler Amendment for ending sanctions cannot be satisfied today, the president has the authority to waive the provision, at his discretion, under the Brownback Amendment II. 

Brownback I

Adopted 1998. The India-Pakistan Relief Act of 1998, incorporated into the fiscal 1999 omnibus appropriations bill (Public Law 105-277).

Provides the president with authority to waive, for a period of one year, Glenn, Symington and Pressler amendment sanctions on India and Pakistan, except for those pertaining to military assistance, dual-use exports and military sales.

Brownback II

Adopted 1999. Incorporated into the fiscal year 2000 defense appropriations bill (Public Law 106-79).

Gives the president indefinite authority to waive, with respect to India and Pakistan, all the provisions of the Glenn, Symington and Pressler amendments. States that the "broad application" of export controls on Indian and Pakistani government agencies and private companies suspected of having links to their country's nuclear or missile programs is "inconsistent" with the national security interests of the United States, and urges the application of U.S. export controls only against agencies and companies that make "direct and material contributions to weapons of mass destruction and missile programs and only to those items that can contribute to such programs."


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## pak_army

now that USA has conditioned our aid to war on terror,is this in any way gonna affect F-16 deal???????


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## Keysersoze

Found a interesting little snippet on global security. the interesting part here is that they had found a way to get the spare parts they needed for the F-16's prior to the WOT.

The Egyptian and Pakistani governments reportedly agreed in November 2000 on a major bilateral defense trade agreement which involved the refurbishment of Egyptian Air Force (EAF) aircraft in Pakistan in exchange for the supply of Egyptian F-16A/B spare parts to the Pakistan Air Force (PAF). The deal, which had been in preparation for some time, was reportedly finalized by Pakistan Chief Executive Gen. Pervez Musharraf and senior Egyptian officials at the Organization of Islamic Conference (OIC) summit in Doha on November 13-14, 2000. What was agreed, reportedly, included:

* The provision by Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) at Kamra, near Islamabad, of major overhauls and upgrades of some or all of the airframes and engines of the EAF's 13 Dassault Mirage 5 E2 tactical fighters; appr. 45 Dassault Mirage 5 SDE tactical fighters; less than 6 Dassault Mirage 5SDR tactical reconnaissance aircraft; and 5 Dassault Mirage 5 SDD operational trainers at the Mirage Rebuild Facility, which is part of PAC;
* The provision by PAC of major overhauls and upgrades of some or all of the airframes and engines of the EAF's appr. 45 Chengdu F-7B Fishbed tactical fighters at the F-6 Rebuild Facility, part of PAC. [Although called the F-6 Rebuild Facility, it undertakes major work on A-5, F-6 and F-7 types.] As well, similar work would be undertaken on some or all of the EAF's appr. 400 Mikoyan MiG-21PFS, MiG-21PFM and MiG-21MF Fishbed tactical fighters; appr. 10 Mikoyan MiG-21R Fishbed tactical reconnaissance aircraft; and appr.12 Mikoyan MiG-21UM/US Mongol operational trainers; as well as appr. 50 Shenyang F-6 Farmer tactical fighters; 5 Shenyang FT-6 Farmer operational trainers.
* The provision by Pakistan Ordnance Factories, at Wah Cantonment, near Islamabad, of a range of ordnance and munitions for the Egyptian Armed Forces;
* Other as-yet unidentified goods and services to be provided by Pakistan to the Egyptian Armed Forces;
* Provision by Egypt of spare parts for the PAF's appr. 35 F-16A/B fighters. 

Egyptian Air Force sources indicated in January 2001 that the EAF was to acquire a significant quantity of Karakorum K-8 advanced jet trainer/light strike aircraft from Pakistan, basically to replace its appr. 25 Dassault-Breguet/Dornier Alpha Jet MS1 advanced trainers and appr. 12 Dassault-Breguet/Dornier Alpha Jet MS2 light attack aircraft.


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## Keysersoze

One more thing....PAK_ARMY....that signature of yours is a marine corp cadence so it is not "unknown"! Also you have managed to get all the words wrong


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## Neo

> *US renews fighter exports to Pakistan​*
> Daily Times Monitor
> 
> Saturday, September 08, 2007
> 
> LAHORE: The United States recently delivered two used F-16B jets to Pakistan and announced plans to donate another two dozen, reports Arms Control Today.
> 
> In a deal announced last September, the US is also set to sell Pakistan 18 new F-16C/D fighters for delivery in 2010 and upgrades for its current fleet of 34 F-16 combat aircraft.
> 
> US Ambassador to Pakistan Anne W Patterson said at a July 10 transfer ceremony at the Pakistan Air Forces Sargodha base, that the planes are symbolic of our commitment to assist Pakistan in improving its ability to secure its territory.
> 
> Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mehmood Ahmed has said he expects 10 more used jets to be delivered by the end of 2008. A Department of Defence spokesperson told Arms Control Today on July 25 that Pakistan will not pay for the used, older model F-16s, whose flying conditions vary, but will assume the costs for refurbishing and modernising them. The US government cleared Islamabad last year for about $2.1 billion of new weapons, avionics, engines, and other equipment for F-16 fighters.
> 
> In late 2005, the US donated two F-16A fighters to Pakistan in the first transfer of fighter aircraft since 1990. That year, President George HW Bush blocked arms sales to Pakistan because his administration would not certify under US law that Islamabad did not possess a nuclear device.
> 
> Seeking Pakistans allegiance after the September 11 attacks, President George W Bush waived the prohibitions.
> 
> Pakistan is supposed to begin receiving the 18 new, top-of-the-line F-16C/Ds in three years and has the option to purchase 18 more. Under US law, Congress was notified of the possible sales, and the House International Relations Committee subsequently convened a hearing in July 2006 in which members blasted the Bush administration for not sufficiently consulting them about the deal.
> 
> Legislators did not block the transaction  that would require a two-thirds supermajority  but some strongly rebuked the administration.
> 
> Administration officials assured Congress that the planes would be subject to more strict security measures by Pakistan and more robust US oversight than in previous transfers between the two countries. Weve put into the deal that (Pakistan) must comply with the approved security plans before well release any systems in a sale, then-Assistant Secretary of State for Political-Military Affairs John Hillen testified.
> 
> These security plans, according to Hillen, would include a very enhanced end-use monitoring programme (and) semi-annual inventories of all F-16 aircraft, equipment, and munitions, including related technical data.
> 
> Bush signed into law on August 3 legislation that could block future F-16 transfers. The Implementing the 9/11 Commission Recommendations Act prohibits the sale of military equipment to Pakistan if it is not committed to eliminating the Taliban within its borders.
> 
> India, has publicly worried about the US F-16 transfers. The Pentagon, however, noted in June 2006 that the exports would not significantly reduce Indias quantitative or qualitative military advantage. Still, India is exploring the purchase of US combat aircraft to fill its procurement goal of 126 planes. India is eyeing both F-16s and F-35 Joint Strike Fighters, but it may instead opt for Russian MiG-35s.
> 
> Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan



The is published in today's DT, but seems to be old. I'm confused about the dates referred to in the article.
Can someone please clarify?


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## EagleEyes

I think we have total of 36 aircrafts by now. Can anyone confirm it?


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## circuitbaba

you are correct intially he had 32 + 2 In 2005 and 2 on Jult 2007...that makes 36


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## HK-47

off-topic:are F/A-18s Hornets(not the super ones) better than the Falcons?oh well there are so many versions of the latter aircraft...yeah....


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## PakShaheen79

DIGITAL RADIO FREQUENCY MEMORY (DRFM) is not present on PAF new F-16's EW suites. 
Details of the potential sale to Pakistan
I just want to know how much impact this will have in AA or AG role


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## blain2

PakShaheen79 said:


> DIGITAL RADIO FREQUENCY MEMORY (DRFM) is not present on PAF new F-16's EW suites.
> Details of the potential sale to Pakistan
> I just want to know how much impact this will have in AA or AG role



Not having DRFM means that while flying the F-16 over enemy territory, in case the craft is subjected to electronic jamming by the opposing air force, the F-16 is unable to record these jamming signals and direct them at the enemy in real time as it is flying over them. The solution to this is effective ELINT missions flown by other platforms like the Erieye and existing DA-20 Falcons that can pick up the signatures of the various emitters on the other side.

The challenge is to be able to record the signatures effectively and then use them during hostilities without getting them identified as peacetime signatures (all airforces use different frequencies during peace and wartimes when emitting from their radar sources).

So not having a DRFM would require PAF to rely on existing library of threat signatures/emitters that IAF would typically use. I am oversimplifying this EW piece..there is a whole lot more to it (you can easily google it). However despite that, the EW hardware on the F-16s is very effective (ALQ-131 in service with our existing F-16s is still widely used by NATO Airforces). So I think DRFM is a "nice to have" but its not an essential for the conduct of missions.


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## F.O.X

> I think we have total of 36 aircrafts by now. Can anyone confirm it?



Including these 2 we have now a total of 40 F-16 right now.

Regards
Wilco


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## EagleEyes

After June there was no other delivery. Even if there was, then that makes it 38.

Original 32
December 34
June 36
September (IF delivered) 38.


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## F.O.X

I think we had 38 before, & including as you say 4 then it make it 42.


Regards
Wilco


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## blain2

My number is 36. 2 + 2 have been delivered on top of the existing 32.


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## fatman17

that is correct:
32 existing
12 from USAF (original a/c for PAF-embargoed)-to be delivered by mid-june-08
14 from USN (original a/c for PAF - embargoed)- not yet finalised as USN un-willing. ANG a/c were offered but rejected.
question is--> which country will perform the MLU. USA, Turkey or in-house?


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## Munir

MLU will be performed either in Turkey or in Pakistan. Not anywhere else.


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## Neo

Earlier reports conformed that MLU will be performed in Pakistan, engineers will be trained by LM in USA.


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## Munir

It is correct that reports have been about several changes but I do not see Pakistan investing that much in MLU upgrade cause I hardly see a reason to go for local production for just a few planes. We knew PAF wanted K8 production but opted for other ideas. I think that Pakistan wants indeed get a few more tained engineerd but purely for kind of TOT that would have been missed if everyting would have been done outside Pakistan. But I do remember that there are some deals that Turkey would do the major parts of the MLU. Then the planes would have fly to a US base in Europe and after that allowed to be delivered... The usual practive which cannot be done if MLU will be in Pakistan...


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## Keysersoze

blain2 said:


> Not having DRFM means that while flying the F-16 over enemy territory, in case the craft is subjected to electronic jamming by the opposing air force, the F-16 is unable to record these jamming signals and direct them at the enemy in real time as it is flying over them. The solution to this is effective ELINT missions flown by other platforms like the Erieye and existing DA-20 Falcons that can pick up the signatures of the various emitters on the other side.
> 
> The challenge is to be able to record the signatures effectively and then use them during hostilities without getting them identified as peacetime signatures (all airforces use different frequencies during peace and wartimes when emitting from their radar sources).
> 
> So not having a DRFM would require PAF to rely on existing library of threat signatures/emitters that IAF would typically use. I am oversimplifying this EW piece..there is a whole lot more to it (you can easily google it). However despite that, the EW hardware on the F-16s is very effective (ALQ-131 in service with our existing F-16s is still widely used by NATO Airforces). So I think DRFM is a "nice to have" but its not an essential for the conduct of missions.



Besides I am assuming that most of the F-16's will have Link 16. Which has storage
which retains info from all other units operating Link 16. Therefore eliminating the need for DFRM


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## Munir

incorrect. Link 16 is not used for sharing ECCM data. It is purely for radar data which can be heard as small burst on the high frequency radios... Up to 4 F16's can share full data and other planes can be linked or interlinked...

There is a need og hige spectrum to share ECCM data in real time... Even a small UAV uses big part of the UHF frequency when transmitting realtime data and is nothing compared to ECCM...


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## blain2

Keysersoze said:


> Besides I am assuming that most of the F-16's will have Link 16. Which has storage
> which retains info from all other units operating Link 16. Therefore eliminating the need for DFRM



As Munir said, Link16 is good for getting a comprehensive picture up in the air (so its excellent for situational awareness). For Electronic Warfare (blinding or jamming the ability of the other side to see the incoming packages), you need a robust ECM and ECCM capability. DRFM essentially "cloaks" the inbound aircraft as they are able to store and resend in real time the signatures of the other side's emitters while the aircraft are over hostile airspace.


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## Atif Ali

Hi i am Atif ( you can call me ATIF or ALI ok) ,


In 1983 PAF get the latest fighter F-16 to counter soviet invasion in AFGHANISTAN effectively . PAF has ordered about 77  79 F-16 to the US with the deal worth of unknown billions of dollars in 1989 but the F-16s didn't arrived yet they just give us the palm oil instead of F-16. Most of the people in PAF always said that those falcons were banned by US just because of nuclear program but the government could negotiate with US in such a way that they could give back PAFs F-16 and now in late 2005 the US has allowed PAF to buy 72 F-16 from them with parts manufacturing facility and may be over-haulin which can save it more than $20 mn per year which is very savy hahahaha.
ACCORDING TO JANE'S DEFENCE NEWS :
On April 12, 2006 the Government of Pakistan approved the purchase of Lockheed Martin F-16C/D Block 52+ and F-16A/B Block 15. The revised F-16 purchase includes the acquisition of 26 ex-Peace Gate-III and IV F-16A/B Block-15OCUs and 18 F-16C/D Block-52s with an option for 18 more; the purchase was finalized between the PAF and Lockheed Martin in October 2006. The total value of the F-16 package is 5.101bn U.S Dollars - if all options are excersized; the deal includes 500 AIM-120C5 BVRAAMs, 200 AIM-9M-8/9 WVRAAMs, 500 JDAM PGMs, and thousands of other air-to-surface bombs. Although the AIM-9X was not procured, the International Defence Exhibition & Seminar (IDEAS) at Karachi in 2006 revealed that the Pakistan Air Force was interested in the European IRIS-T for its F-16 WVR requirement. In addition to the 18 new built F-16C/D Block-52+ aircraft, the 60 F-16A/B Block 15 aircraft will go through the Mid-Life-Update - III upgrade (MLU-3); this would make the F-16A/Bs avionically on par with the Block 52+. Janes Defence Weekly reported that the Pakistan Air Force may order a second phase of 33 new-built F-16C/D Block 52+. Originally up to 75 F-16C/D Block-52 were supposed to be procured other than the order of 36-40 F-10 and also according to the PAF Air Chief, additional F-10 are planned. The FC-20 will likely become the core of the PAF's fleet as a multi-role fighter, replacing the Mirage ROSE III/V and F-7PG by 2019 I supposed along with some people that they may reach upto 126+ F-10 in near future may be in 2018 because in some chinese newspapers they are rumours that PAF has ordered another 40 or 50 F-10 but doesn't disclose it yet ; however the tragic and catastrophic earthquake in Azad Kashmir forced the Pakistan Government to delay acquisition of F-16s. With the Kashmir relief operations draining the government's funds - the Defense Ministry was considering a significantly down-scaled F-16 order. It is likely however that the PAF will procure 26 F-16A/Bs MLU-3 to start retiring its F-7Ps also additional F-16s are planned from third parties like Venezuela which is retiring its 24 F-16s due to sanctions which would go through similar upgrade MLU-3 standard . I think that PAF may find customers of F-7Ps as it has upgraded its avionics in kamra by making a HUD (Head up display) to carryout precision strike through LGB(Laser guided Weapons) which is quite amazing you can see the video of it through video section , none of these kind of jets can do it other then bison and PGs .
http://www.defence.pk/Aircraft_Inventory/
If you do some maths you can figure it out that US has allowed 72 F-16's of which 26 are used ones and 18 are newly brand BLK-52 with an option of about 18+ jets , lets just add the nos. 26+18 = 44 and minus the nos. with 72-44 = 28 and in above statement it is said that may be 33+ BLK-52 so you can imagine how much the deal could extend but it would take time to come to PAK.


ok take care of your selfs. BYE


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## IceCold

blain2 said:


> As Munir said, Link16 is good for getting a comprehensive picture up in the air (so its excellent for situational awareness). For Electronic Warfare (blinding or jamming the ability of the other side to see the incoming packages), you need a robust ECM and ECCM capability. DRFM essentially "cloaks" the inbound aircraft as they are able to store and resend in real time the signatures of the other side's emitters while the aircraft are over hostile airspace.



But the ones we are getting if i'm not mistaken DRFM is missing from them. But people on other forum are of an opinion that under the umbrella of an AWACS the need for DRFM is eliminated. I personaly disaggree with it because even if so what will the jet do when it enters hostile area, lacking DFRM will be like flying blind. Do you think it will effect the offensive capability?
One more thing that i come to learn there on Defence talk, actually a very senior person stated that, US doesnt really informs the congress all about what pakistan is getting on those F-16s to avoid hulla huppa from congress and India, and many systems can be provided from back channel, So they were of an opinion that we will get DRFM. What do you think is it possible?


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## M.ASIF AMIN

1) That is true? US offered to Pakistan replace its F16 blk 15s order to better F16 blk 40/42 aircrafts. because blk 15 .f16 are using with its naval & other main agressive training.
& they have no alternative for blk15 f16 so new offer is blk40/42 f16 without HARM capability
2) PAF looking new JSF based JF-17 thunder Changing after 50 current jf17 we looking its new shape and designe .major area are change with tail saction .two internal missile launcher bay in fuselage + more other change


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## Real LAVi

Hi -- I am Irfan and have greate enthusiest of military aviation,,,,,

hi.. Asif Bhei --- how are you... 

Above all reveal is truth ,,, but this more surprise for all that PAF is looking for AESA radar (APG -80) for its Block 52+... this is as same moder as UAE block 60 radar... 

the reason is, Poland, Greeck are facing problems with APG 68 (9) and Israel already refused it, with block 52+ and are using its own radar, which is more batter than this radar. rightnow, I won't go any detail but will inform you later with complete details of this problems and issue..

there are no option remained for pakistan that only to acqurie block 50+ with APG -80 AESA radar. that will be a gaint leap for PAF, if USA agree to sell this radar... Athough our MLU project has started with APG 68 (9) and nowaday 9 aircrafts is going on MLU process in Turkey along with PAF engineers and techincians.


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## EagleEyes

Thanks for the update guys.

The rumors are true that after 2009 or so, there could be major change in JF-17 and it will have an AESA radar. The major change has a design more like in the above pictures.


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## Proud to be Pakistani

WebMaster said:


> Thanks for the update guys.
> 
> The rumors are true that after 2009 or so, there could be major change in JF-17 and it will have an AESA radar. The major change has a design more like in the above pictures.



Rear chance Webby that US will give AESA to Pakistan since this is the Radar used on F-18 and makes it withh Par to SU-30 in real combat. The APG -80 is by far even better than the SU-30 radar and is the only radar in the world with such characteristics.

I hope PAF gets it but i think will not.

As for the JF-17, AESA from Chinese in league with US or Russian radar is far away. Europian AESA shall be available if Pakistan trades more defence items with France as before. For design changes, i donot know what major change in the Air Frame is possible but its not a thing you can change before prototype testing and all. Since the design will get frozen for few batches, it seems that some parallel testing and simulation works on design will go on to enhance the existing design.


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## blain2

IceCold said:


> But the ones we are getting if i'm not mistaken DRFM is missing from them. But people on other forum are of an opinion that under the umbrella of an AWACS the need for DRFM is eliminated. I personaly disaggree with it because even if so what will the jet do when it enters hostile area, lacking DFRM will be like flying blind. Do you think it will effect the offensive capability?
> One more thing that i come to learn there on Defence talk, actually a very senior person stated that, US doesnt really informs the congress all about what pakistan is getting on those F-16s to avoid hulla huppa from congress and India, and many systems can be provided from back channel, So they were of an opinion that we will get DRFM. What do you think is it possible?



DRFM is an excellent capability to be had in the absence of ELINT aircraft. It (DRFM) is also a component that can be retrofitted on the aircraft and multiple suppliers exist.

For Pakistan, the DRFM issue [due to its classification as an asset used in Offensive Air Ops] was a fight not necessary on the Capitol Hill with so much other stuff like AIM-120s and the blk52s getting through.

Aside from this, the Erieye platform has a very decent capability in the area of storing RF captures while snooping and carrying out surveillance.

Even without DRFM, the aircraft can conduct missions. DRFM provides a bit more flexibility in terms of real time playback.


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## blain2

Proud to be Pakistani said:


> Rear chance Webby that US will give AESA to Pakistan since this is the Radar used on F-18 and makes it withh Par to SU-30 in real combat. The APG -80 is by far even better than the SU-30 radar and is the only radar in the world with such characteristics.
> 
> I hope PAF gets it but i think will not.
> 
> As for the JF-17, AESA from Chinese in league with US or Russian radar is far away. Europian AESA shall be available if Pakistan trades more defence items with France as before. For design changes, i donot know what major change in the Air Frame is possible but its not a thing you can change before prototype testing and all. Since the design will get frozen for few batches, it seems that some parallel testing and simulation works on design will go on to enhance the existing design.




This is not true. US has told Pakistan that they can have whatever capability they want as long as we can foot the bill for it and its not an offensive capability that would raise serious eyebrows in the US.

APG-80 is something that is already in the hands of UAEAF. US would be forthcoming on supplying the same to PAF if the integration and cost issues can be worked out on block 52s for the PAF.

APG-80 supply to Pakistan has nothing to do with MKI and its capabilities. MKI does not even have an AESA radar right now. Range is one thing, but refresh rates and the # of tracks an entirely different thing.


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## ahussains

M.ASIF AMIN said:


> 1) That is true? US offered to Pakistan replace its F16 blk 15s order to better F16 blk 40/42 aircrafts. because blk 15 .f16 are using with its naval & other main agressive training.
> & they have no alternative for blk15 f16 so new offer is blk40/42 f16 without HARM capability
> 2) PAF looking new JSF based JF-17 thunder Changing after 50 current jf17 we looking its new shape and designe .major area are change with tail saction .two internal missile launcher bay in fuselage + more other change



On June 28/06, the US DSCA notified Congress via a series of releases of its intention to provide Pakistan with a $5.1 billion Foreign Military Sales package to upgrade the F-16s that serve as the PAF's top of the line fighters. Some of these items had been put on hold following the October 2005 earthquake in Pakistan & Kashmir, but the request for 36 new F-16 Block 50/52s is now going ahead following the required 30-day review period, along with new weapons, engine modifications, 60 F-16 upgrade kits that would cover Pakistan's older F-16 A/Bs plus other aircraft it might buy second-hand, and related equipment. 

These items are detailed below along with controversies the proposed sales created, and some of the conditions attached to the sale by the US government. 

Item 1: 36 New F-16 Block 50/52s  $3 billion 
Item 2: Weapons for the New F-16s  $650 Million 
Item 3: F-16A/B Mid-Life Update Modification Kits  $1.3 billion 
Item 4: F-16A/B Engine Modifications & UP/STAR  $151 Million 

Deal Updates and Progress 
Potential Controversies (July 5, 2006) 

*Item 1: 36 New F-16 Block 50/52s  $3 billion*

Greek F-16 Block 50/52s
(click to view full)The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of 36 F-16C Block 50 and F-16D Block 52 two-seater aircraft  other reports indicate a buy of 18 jets, with an option for another 18. The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $3 billion.

While Pakistan's existing F-16s use the Pratt & Whitney F100 engine, the new planes will be equipped with either the Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-229 or General Electric's F110-GE-129 Increased Performance Engines (IPEs). They will also be equipped with the APG-68(V)9 radars, which are the most modern F-16 radar except for the UAE's F-16E/F Block 60 "Desert Falcons" and their AN/APG-80 AESA. 

The package for Pakistan's new F-16s also includes:

7 spare F100-PW-229 IPE or F110-GE-129 IPE engines 
7 spare APG-68(V)9 radar sets 
36 Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS) 
36 AN/ARC-238 SINCGARS radios with HAVE QUICK I/II 
36 Conformal Fuel Tanks (pairs) that fit along the aircraft's sides to give them extra range 
36 Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals; DID has covered the tactical uses of MIDS-LVT Link 16 systems 
36 Global Positioning Systems (GPS) and Embedded GPS/Inertial Navigation Systems 
36 APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems 
36 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare (ALQ-211 AIDEW) Suites without Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM); or AN/ALQ-184 Electronic Counter Measures pod without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-131 Electronic Counter Measures pod without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-187 Advanced Self-Protection Integrated Suites without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-178 Self-Protection Electronic Warfare Suites without DRFM 
1 Unit Level Trainer 
Associated support equipment, software development/integration, modification kits, capability to employ a wide variety of munitions, spares and repair parts, flight test instrumentation, publications and technical documentation, CONUS-personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics personnel services, and other related requirements to ensure full program supportability. 
The principal contractors will be: 

Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company, Fort Worth, TX 
Lockheed Martin Missile and Fire Control, Dallas, TX 
BAE Advanced Systems Greenlawn, NY 
Boeing Corporation Seattle, WA 
Boeing Integrated Defense Systems: St Louis, MO; Long Beach, CA; San Diego, CA 
Raytheon Company: Lexington, MA; Goleta, CA 
Raytheon Missile Systems in Tucson, AZ 
Northrop-Grumman Electro-Optical Systems in Garland, TX 
Northrop-Grumman Electronic Systems in Baltimore, MD 
United Technology Company subsidiary Pratt & Whitney in East Hartford, CT; or 
General Electric Aircraft Engines in Cincinnati, OH 
There are no known offset agreements in connection with this proposed sale. Implementation of this proposed sale will require multiple trips to Pakistan involving U.S. Government and contractor representatives for technical review/support and program management of the aircraft. See DSCA release [PDF format]. 

*Item 2: Weapons for the New F-16s  $650 Million *

To equip those new F-16s, the Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of:

500 AIM-120C5 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM) 
12 AMRAAM training missiles  these have seeker warheads but lack engines 
200 AIM-9M-8/9 Sidewinder Short-Range Air-Air Missiles; they are the version before the fifth-generation AIM-9X. 
240 LAU-129/A Launchers  these support AMRAAM or Sidewinder missiles. 
500 Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM) Guidance Kits: GBU-31/38 Guided Bomb Unit (GBU) kits 
1,600 Enhanced Paveway GBU-12 (500 lb.) and GBU-24s (2,000 lb.) with dual laser/GPS guidance 
800 MK-82 500 pound General Purpose (GP) and MK-84 2,000 pound GP bombs 
700 BLU-109 2,000 pound bunker-buster bombs with the FMU-143 Fuse 
Associated support equipment, software development/integration, modification kits, capability to employ a wide variety of munitions, spares and repair parts, flight test instrumentation, publications and technical documentation, CONUS-personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics personnel services, and other related requirements to ensure full program supportability will also be provided. 
The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $650 million. The principal contractors will be: 

BAE Advanced Systems in Greenlawn, NY 
Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company in Fort Worth, TX 
Lockheed Martin Missile and Fire Control in Dallas, TX 
Northrop-Grumman Electro-Optical Systems in Garland, TX 
Northrop-Grumman Electronic Systems in Baltimore, MD 
There are no known offset agreements in connection with this proposed sale. Implementation of this proposed sale will require multiple trips to Pakistan involving U.S. Government and contractor representatives for technical review/support, program management, and modification of the aircraft. See DSCA release [PDF format].

*Item 3: F-16A/B Mid-Life Update Modification Kits  $1.3 billion*

The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of 60 F-16A/B Mid-Life Update (MLU) modification and Falcon Star Structural Service Life Enhancement kits consisting of: 

APG-68(V)9 with Synthetic Aperture Radar or the APG-66(V)2 radar, which is a much smaller improvement on earlier F-16s. The APG-68 with SAR is far better at air to ground work, and can be used to monitor ground activity. 
Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS) 
AN/APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems 
AN/ALE-47 Advanced Countermeasures Dispenser Systems 
Have Quick I/II Radios 
Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals (MIDS-LVT) 
SNIPER (formerly known as AN/AAQ-33 PANTERA) targeting pod capability 
Reconnaissance pod capability 
Advanced Air Combat Maneuvering Instrumentation Units (used for training exercises) 
MDE included in the MLU modification and structural upgrade kits 
21 ALQ-131 Block II Electronic Countermeasures Pods without the Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM); or ALQ-184 Electronic Countermeasures Pods without DRFM; 
60 ALQ-213 Electronic Warfare Management Systems; 
1 Unit Level Trainer; and 
10 APG-68(V)9 spare radar sets. 
Radars, modems, receivers, installation, avionics, spare and repair parts, support equipment, CONUS-personnel training and training equipment, technical assistance, publications and technical documentation, system drawings, U.S. Government and contractor engineering, and other related logistics elements necessary for full program support. 

JHMCSThe total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $1.3 billion.

According to the US DSCA, Pakistan intends to purchase the MLU Program equipment "to enhance survivability, communications connectivity, and extend the useful life of its F-16A/B fighter aircraft. The modifications and upgrades in this proposed sale will permit Pakistan's F-16A/B squadron to operate safely, and enhance Pakistan's conventional deterrent capability. Pakistan's air fleet can readily use these updates to enhance and extend the life of its aircraft."

The principal contractors will be: 

BAE Advanced Systems in Greenlawn, NY 
Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company in Fort Worth, TX 
Lockheed Martin Missile and Fire Control in Dallas, TX 
Northrop-Grumman Electro-Optical Systems in Garland, TX 
Northrop-Grumman Electronic Systems in Baltimore, MD 
There are no known offset agreements in connection with this proposed sale. Implementation of this proposed sale will require multiple trips to Pakistan involving U.S. Government and contractor representatives. e 

InsideDefense.com makes the interesting observation that Pakistan doesn't have 60 F-16s to upgrade. The clear implication is that the Pakistani government is interested in buying used F-16s from other countries and upgrading them.

*Item 4: F-16A/B Engine Modifications & UP/STAR  $151 Million*


F100 Engine TestThe third contract involves Engine Modifications and Falcon UP/STAR Structural Upgrades as well as associated equipment and services. The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $151 million. 

More specifically, the Government of Pakistan has requested engine improvements and structural modifications to its F-16 fleet, which includes a possible sale of:

14 F100-PW-220E engines 
14 Falcon UP/STAR F-16 structural upgrade kits 
De-modification and preparation of 26 aircraft 
Support equipment, software development/integration, modification kits, spares and repair parts, flight test instrumentation, publications and technical documentation, personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics personnel services, and other related requirements to support the program. 
The principal contractors will be: 

Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company in Fort Worth, TX 
United Technology Company subsidiary Pratt & Whitney in East Hartford, CT. 
There are no known offset agreements proposed in connection with this potential sale, but implementation of the engine modifications and UP/STAR repairs will require multiple trips to Pakistan involving U.S. Government and contractor representatives for technical review/support, program management, and modification of the aircraft. See DSCA release [PDF format].

*Deal Updates and Progress*

PAF F-16A
Dec 14/07: Raytheon Missile Systems of Tucson, AZ received a firm fixed price contract for $161.3 million. This action provides 300 miscellaneous unit air foil groups, 300 miscellaneous armament unit enhanced computer control groups, 1,298 weapon guidance unit computer control groups, 1,300 stabilizing and retarding unit air foil groups, 600 global positioning system adapter kits, 1 lot enhanced Paveway III and test equipment spares, 1 lot enhanced Paveway II, 700 certain adapter groups, 6 readiness test set, 6 bomb tool kits, 3 lots of enhanced Paveway tool sets, 3 each common munitions bit/reprogramming equipment adapter kits, 1 each mission planning software, 1 lot DATA. This effort supports foreign military sales to Pakistan. At this time $75.7 million has been obligated. The 784th Combat Sustainment Group (AFMC) at Hill Air Force Base, UT issued the contract (FA8213-08-C-0028).

Enhanced Paveways use a combination of laser and GPS/INS guidance. The laser designator offers better accuracy, and is compatible with targeting pods like Pakistan's forthcoming Sniper ATPs. GPS/INS benefits include the ability to function through fog, dust storms, clouds, smoke, or other obscurants, and can be employed in the absence of a laser designator as long as Global Positioning System coordinates are available for the target.

April 27/07: Pakistan orders 22 of Lockheed Martin's AN/AAQ-33 Sniper Advanced Targeting Pods under a $54.6 million firm-fixed-price contract. Since Raytheon's ATFLIR is only integrated with F/A-18s, and Northrop Grumman's LITENING AT is a joint development with Israel's RAFAEL, the choice is not surprising. Sniper pods have also been referred to as PANTERA pods in the past. See "Pakistan Joins List of Sniper ATP Customers" for more.

March 30/07: ITT Avionics in Clifton, NJ received a $78 million firm-fixed-price and time and materials contract for "Foreign Military Sales of the AN/ALQ-173 (V) advanced integrated defense electronics warfare to the country of Pakistan." Associated spares, support equipment, training, engineering services, flight test support and data are also being acquired. Solicitations began February 2007, negotiations were complete March 2007, and work will be complete January 2010. The Headquarters Warner Robins Air Logistics Center at Robins Air Force Base, GA issued the contract (FA8523-07-C-).

Oddly enough, the AN/ALQ-173 was not among the many ECM alternatives listed in the official US DSCA announcement. See below

Dec 5/06: Lockheed Martin Corp. in Fort Worth, TX received a $144 million firm-fixed-price and time and materials contract for 12 operational single place F-16C Block 52 aircraft and 6 operational two place F-16D Block 52+ aircraft. This will begin readying materials to manufacture the aircraft. Aircraft purchases will be accomplished under the firm-fixed price portion of the contract, and $78.4 million has been obligated at this time. Work will be complete by November 2010. The Headquarters Aeronautical Systems Center at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, OH issued the contract (FA8615-07-C-6031). See DID coverage.

Nov 17/06: Raytheon Missile Systems in Tucson, AZ received a $269.6 million firm-fixed-price contract modification, exercising an option to purchase 500 AIM-120C5 AMRAAM missiles and rehost on behalf of Pakistan (100%). Work will be complete April 2011. The Headquarters Medium Range Missile System Group at Eglin Air Force Base, FL issued the contract (FA8675-05-C-0070/P00028).

Nov 15/06: Northrop Grumman Electronic Systems in Linthicum Heights, MD received half of a $99.5 million firm-fixed-price contract for "government furnished property for the Government of Pakistan" under the F-16 Block 50/52 new aircraft and modernization program. "The procurement of 54 AN/APG-68 (V)9 Radar Systems will be accomplished under the firm-fixed-price portion of the contract." A January 10, 2007 Northrop Grumman release clarifies: this order is for 52 systems (18 new + 34 upgrade kits), with a 44 radar option to follow (18 new + 26 upgrade kits). See complete DID coverage for details regarding the order and the radar.

Oct 2/06: India Defence reports that Pakistan and USA have signed a letter of acceptance for these deals, following a September 30, 2006 ceremony in Rawalpindi were Pakistan's military is headquartered. It said that the United States will supply 18 new F-16 aircraft, as well as an unspecified number of upgraded second-hand F-16s. Previous reports have said the number of second hand aircraft Pakistan was considering buying was 36, which would make for 18 of each.

India Defence adds that "Both sides had expected to wrap up the deal a month earlier, but negotiations dragged on because of strings Washington wanted attached." The USA has clear concerns regarding technology transfer from the F-16s or associated weapons it sells to 3rd countries like China, which has close military ties with Pakistan.While the US was reluctant to discuss details, Assistant Secretary of State for political-military affairs John Hillen was more open with Congress on July 20, 2006.

In his testimony to the House of Representatives' International Relations Committee, Hillen reportedely said that: the United States was withholding unspecified technologies "that would usually go with an F-16," including ones that would let it "be used in offensive ways to penetrate air space of another country that was highly defended". It added that Pakistan's F-16 fleet and its munitions would be segregated from aircraft supplied by other countries, so that unauthorized engineers could not get access to the U.S.-made planes, and that U.S. personnel would carry out inventories of the F-16s and their associated systems every 6 months. There had even been a proposal that F-16 flights outside Pakistani air space, including for exercises with other countries, would have to be approved by the U.S. government in advance. It is not clear whether this requirement ever got beyond the proposal stage.

July 20/06: Well, here's the first copncerned speech from an opposed Congressman: Eliot Engel [D-NY], citing Pakistan's support for terrorism in India. Mr Engel is a senior member of the House International Relations Committee, and was one of the first Members of Congress to come out in favour of the proposed India-US nuclear energy deal. He'll be making his views public at the July 20, 2006 House International Relations Committee hearing on the Pakistan sales  and that meeting will tell us if opposition to the deal has real traction.

Potential Controversies (July 5, 2006)


ISAF, S. Afghanistan
(click to view full)The DSCA has said that "Release of this system would not significantly reduce India's quantitative or qualitative military advantage." India disagrees, and military experts in Delhi will likely note that the same equipment (GPS, targeting pods, bunker-busters) that could potentially find uses against al-Qaeda terrorists in Pakistan's "lawless frontier" could also be used in precision strikes on India's military facilities in the event of war.

The DSCA counters that release of the F-16C/D Block 50/52 aircraft to Pakistan "will neither affect the regional balance of power nor introduce a new technology as this level of capability or higher already exists in other countries in the region." India does operate more advanced SU-30MKI aircraft with R-77 "AMRAAMski" missiles, advanced avionics, et. al.; these are superior in range, armament, and maneuverability to Pakistan's F-16s, and will remain so. Meanwhile, India's $7-10 billion MRCA competition is certain to introduce 125-200 aircraft that are certain to be more advanced than the F-16 Block 50/52.

The US DSCA adds in its submission to Congress that "The modification of the engines and Falcon UP/STAR structural updates will provide capable F-16's that can be used for close air support in ongoing operations contributing to the GWOT." The DSCA also cites the June 2004 designation of Pakistan as a Major Non-North Atlantic Treaty Organization Ally in its submission. The British commander of NATO's ISAF force in Southern Afghanistan sees Pakistan's role in a rather different light, however; he recently noted that al-Qaeda in Afghanistan is still run out of Pakistan (specifically Quetta), with Pakistani knowledge and even support from Islamist elements in its security apparatus. Ah, the dynamics of counter-insurgency in tribal societies. Pakistan angrily denies this, of course.

India's objections to this sale have been muted thus far, and phrased carefully to emphasize their effect on India-Pakistan ties rather than India-US ties. Meanwhile, President Bush's personal diplomacy approach has fostered a strong relationship with Gen. Musharraf that is inclined to view such requests favourably as part of the USA's 3-corner balancing act in the region. Barring unusual circumstances, therefore, it's reasonable to expect this sale to go through with little more than a concerned speech or two in Congress.


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## Proud to be Pakistani

blain2 said:


> This is not true. US has told Pakistan that they can have whatever capability they want as long as we can foot the bill for it and its not an offensive capability that would raise serious eyebrows in the US.
> 
> APG-80 is something that is already in the hands of UAEAF. US would be forthcoming on supplying the same to PAF if the integration and cost issues can be worked out on block 52s for the PAF.
> 
> APG-80 supply to Pakistan has nothing to do with MKI and its capabilities. MKI does not even have an AESA radar right now. Range is one thing, but refresh rates and the # of tracks an entirely different thing.



I donot agree that US will give access to APG-80, only seeing is believing in this case brother.

True that Su-30 doesnt have AESA now but its PESA is the best thing in the world of Radars second only to APG-80 and APG-77 radars.


----------



## KENT

Proud to be Pakistani said:


> I donot agree that US will give access to APG-80, only seeing is believing in this case brother.
> 
> True that Su-30 doesnt have AESA now but its PESA is the best thing in the world of Radars second only to APG-80 and APG-77 radars.





other then PESA, it has lot more other top notch attachments.


----------



## Proud to be Pakistani

KENT said:


> other then PESA, it has lot more other top notch attachments.



Agreed but donot compare AESA tech with SU-30.

APG-80 is far more advanced.

Let alone the APG-77.


----------



## KENT

Proud to be Pakistani said:


> Agreed but donot compare AESA tech with SU-30.
> 
> APG-80 is far more advanced.
> 
> Let alone the APG-77.





Serious compreshension problem indeed, 
where did I compare APG and PESA?


----------



## Proud to be Pakistani

KENT said:


> Serious compreshension problem indeed,
> where did I compare APG and PESA?



Other than PESA, Su-30 has  

Was it necessary to push in... Its radar i mentioned not the capability of Fighter Jet ...


----------



## KENT

Proud to be Pakistani said:


> Other than PESA, Su-30 has
> 
> This exactly what I was expecting from you about Su-30 and hence I raised the point.






Proud to be Pakistani said:


> Was it necessary to push in... Its radar i mentioned not the capability of Fighter Jet ...




How does only radar is only the added advantage in capability?


----------



## Proud to be Pakistani

KENT said:


> How does only radar is only the added advantage in capability?



If Pakistani F-16s get AESA of APG 80 class then you shall see how SU-30s of Indian Airforce come down with AMRAAM AIM-120C5..

F-16 will detect the SU-30 before it can detect the Viper...

This is why i mentioned that US will not be willing to give AESA to PAF to create a balance in Airforces.


----------



## KENT

Proud to be Pakistani said:


> If Pakistani F-16s get AESA of APG 80 class then you shall see how SU-30s of Indian Airforce come down with AMRAAM AIM-120C5...




How about allowing falcon into the such astounding hypothetical equation?






Proud to be Pakistani said:


> This is why i mentioned that US will not be willing to give AESA to PAF to create a balance in Airforces.




What kind of the Balance are you talking about that will create in the airforce?
Pls understand your own words, then let me know about it.


----------



## Proud to be Pakistani

KENT said:


> How about allowing falcon into the such astounding hypothetical equation?
> 
> What kind of the Balance are you talking about that will create in the airforce?
> Pls understand your own words, then let me know about it.



Lets have a english class. 

And a understanding issue is there. 

United States will not want Active Electronically Scanned Array(for information on AESA kindly search) based radars to be given to Pakistan Air Force because in their theory it will lessen the Gap between Indian Air force and Pakistani Air force in terms of State of Art Equipment.

Only SU-30 (Fighter Jet) is considered the most advanced Jet Fighter in the region with its Passive Electronically Scanned Array Radar (PESA). Due to its radar's range of detection of other Jet Fighters and Beyond Visual Range engagement abilities. APG 80 radar for F-16 will give a upper hand in combat against Su-30's Radar. As APG 80 has a greater range of Detection then Su-30 and can shoot a SU-30 from 100+ with AMRAAM AIM-120C5 before the SU-30 can even detect the F-16.


I hope even a child (as you are)will not have problem understanding now!


----------



## vampier

proud to be pakistani good job lol.gif


----------



## KENT

Proud to be Pakistani said:


> "United States will not want Active Electronically Scanned Array(for information on AESA kindly search) based radars to be given to Pakistan Air Force"



Exactly You rightly said, you definetly need english class and hence such grammetical error! 

It is like that 
"United states won't AESA based radar to given to Pakistan airforce"

now compare the above with your one.







Proud to be Pakistani said:


> I hope even a child (as you are)will not have problem understanding now!



Offcourse you can hope looking at your grammetical error.


----------



## Proud to be Pakistani

KENT said:


> Exactly You rightly said, you definetly need english class and hence such grammetical error!
> 
> It is like that
> "United states won't AESA based radar to given to Pakistan airforce"
> 
> now compare the above with your one.
> 
> 
> Offcourse you can hope looking at your grammetical error.



What can i say you are learning in Oxford and from your early days, you were in Convent Schools in India....

You have a better Grammer ..........   


*But lesser Mind*.  

You really need to keep learning in Oxford......... 

May be you will improve.....


----------



## KENT

Proud to be Pakistani said:


> What can i say you are learning in Oxford and from your early days, you were in Convent Schools in India....
> 
> You have a better Grammer ..........
> 
> 
> *But lesser Mind*.
> 
> You really need to keep learning in Oxford.........
> 
> May be you will improve.....



So I did not aware about exclusivity that you will give the merit of learning in Oxford. By the way there is nothing anything like Oxford in india.


----------



## Proud to be Pakistani

KENT said:


> So I did not aware about exclusivity that you will give the merit of learning in Oxford. By the way there is nothing anything like Oxford in india.



If you are Indian then you should know that the Convent schools are good schools when it comes to English.


----------



## KENT

Proud to be Pakistani said:


> If you are Indian then you should know that the Convent schools are good schools when it comes to English.





*By the way Asif, I am wishing you and all other members of Pakistani defence forum a very happy new year, hope 2008 would bring you prosperity and vibrant colour to you and your country.*


----------



## Proud to be Pakistani

KENT said:


> *By the way Asif, I am wishing you and all other members of Pakistani defence forum a very happy new year, hope 2008 would bring you prosperity and vibrant colour to you and your country.*



Same to you too buddy!


----------



## -=~V@MP!R3~=-

insallah same to u buddy


----------



## BATMAN

Lockheed gets $498 mn contract to sell F-16s to Pakistan : US Business



> Washington, Jan 1 - The US Defence Department has awarded a $498.2 million contract to Lockheed Martin Corp to supply 18 F-16 aircraft to Pakistan just ten days after the US Congress slapped restrictions on military aid to Islamabad.
> 
> Lockheed will sell 12 F-16C plus six F-16D planes to Pakistan under the contract, the department announced in a list of defence contract awards Monday, but did not say how soon the fighter jets would be delivered.
> 
> The award to Lockheed is in line with a senior US official's assertion that the Congressional restrictions on providing $50 million in military aid to Pakistan would not affect the sales of F-16 aircraft.
> 
> 'The F-16 programme is a Pakistani purchase, their money, they are buying them. And our foreign military finance, our military assistance goes for different purposes and is not involved at this point in the F-16 sales,' said Richard Boucher, assistant secretary of state for South and Central Asian affairs.
> 
> 'So they will be able to continue that and we will be able to continue our efforts...so they can do the fight against terrorism that they are in,' he said in a media teleconference last month shortly after Congress linked the military aid to Islamabad's efforts to fight terror.
> 
> Boucher had also expressed confidence that the restrictions would not prevent the Bush administration from providing military aid to Pakistan, which has received about $10 billion in US funding since 2001.
> 
> Pakistan is to get 18 new F-16C/D fighters by 2010 besides upgrades for its current fleet of 34 F-16 combat aircraft as part of a $2.1 billion deal for new weapons, avionics, engines, and other equipment for F-16 fighters announced in September last year.
> 
> Lockheed, the Pentagon's No. 1 contractor, won a $144 million contract in 2006 for materials needed to build the F-16s.
> 
> In authorising $300 million in aid to Pakistan, the Congress had said $50 million of it can only be used after Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice certifies that Pakistan is making 'concerted efforts' to prevent terrorists and the Taliban from operating inside its borders.
> 
> Boucher said he had little doubt that the administration would get the money. 'We are confident that we will be able to report to Congress on the developments in the areas that they have identified,' he said.
> 
> Asserting, this is very much part of the counter-terrorism effort, Boucher said: 'It goes to TOW missiles. It goes to tactical radios that their forces can use to plan military operations. And it goes to support the programme for P-3C aircraft that help them do maritime patrols.'
> 
> He added: 'Pakistan is currently, for the second time, in command of the Combined Task Force 150 that patrols the seas off Pakistan and the Arabian Gulf to prevent terrorist activities on the high seas.


I hope those 12 F-16 will be delivered much earlier than 2010.


----------



## Spring Onion

BATMAN said:


> I hope those 12 F-16 will be delivered much earlier than 2010.




Yes hope so though it says by 2010 wish if they deliever it before that to say in 09.


----------



## Neo

*US awards contract for F-16 supply to Pakistan​*
WASHINGTON, Jan 1: The US Defence Department has awarded a $498.2 million contract to Lockheed Martin Corp to supply 18 F-16 fighter jets to Pakistan.

The decision is in line with a senior US officials assertion that the Congressional restrictions on providing $50 million in military aid to Pakistan would not affect the sales of F-16 aircraft.

The F-16 programme is a Pakistani purchase, their money, theyre buying them, said Richard Boucher, assistant secretary of state for South Asian affairs. And our foreign military finance, our military assistance goes for different purposes and is not involved at this point in the F-16 sales.

On Monday, the Pentagon released a list of defence contract awards, which include an authorisation for Lockheed to sell 12 F-16C and six F-16D planes to Pakistan.

The F-16C is a single-seat aircraft while the F-16D is a two-seat flying machine. Pakistan already has a fleet of F-16AM, which is an upgraded single-seat version of F-16A.

During the Soviet-Afghan war, Pakistan Air Forces F-16s shot down at least 10 Afghan and Soviet ground attack and transport aircraft between 1986 and 1988.Pakistan is to get 18 new F-16C/D fighters by 2010 besides upgrades for its current fleet of 34 F-16 combat aircraft as part of a $2.1 billion deal for new weapons, avionics, engines, and other equipment for F-16 fighters announced in September last year.

Lockheed, the Pentagons No. 1 contractor, won a $144 million contract in 2006 for materials needed to build the F-16s.

*Pakistani F-16s will be equipped with AIM-120C-5 AMRAAM, AIM-9M-8/9, JDAM, Harpoon Block II, Joint-Helmet Mounted Cueing System, CFTs and possibly IRIS-T.*

All 18 new aircraft will come from Block 50-52, first delivered to the US Air Force in late 1991.

US awards contract for F-16 supply to Pakistan -DAWN - Top Stories; January 02, 2008


----------



## BATMAN

Jana said:


> Yes hope so though it says by 2010 wish if they deliever it before that to say in 09.



I mean 2010 is the date before which all 18 will be delivered and I assumed work on block C will commence first and block D will be the last one to be delivered and may require some technical discussions with PAF etc. Where as I expect LHM only waiting for green signal and can produce much more than six per year.
Again, this is purely my personal analysis and has no authentic source of information.


----------



## firefight

It's a great plane, nut we are getting the same blocks the Israeli's got which
makes it a little bit unsettling. We need a guarantee that sanctions will not effect
deliver of parts when needed, like USA did with Venezuela.


----------



## blain2

BATMAN said:


> I mean 2010 is the date before which all 18 will be delivered and I assumed work on block C will commence first and block D will be the last one to be delivered and may require some technical discussions with PAF etc. Where as I expect LHM only waiting for green signal and can produce much more than six per year.
> Again, this is purely my personal analysis and has no authentic source of information.



Usually D's come first and then C's. D's allow for additional pilots to be converted over to the type as they are two seaters and the sqn slated to be the OCU can start operating before the regular F-16 blk 52 sqn is brought on line with both Cs and Ds.


----------



## Neo

blain2 said:


> Usually D's come first and then C's. D's allow for additional pilots to be converted over to the type as they are two seaters and the sqn slated to be the OCU can start operating before the regular F-16 blk 52 sqn is brought on line with both Cs and Ds.



Indeed, D will be the first to arrive to allow training in pakistan. 
First F-16 deivered in early eighties was a F-16B for the same purpose, the batch was made of 4 F-16B and 2 F-16A's.


----------



## kashifpso

I AGREE WITH THE VIEWS OF THE MEMBERS THAT THE AREA OF CONCERNS IN THE DEAL OF F-16 ARE:

* F-16 WITH OUT NUCLEAR CAPABILITY.
* EXTRAORDINARY SECURITY PLAN THAT IS RISKY FOR AIR FORCE SO THAT THEY CAN LOCATE US ANY TIME.
* THE TIME FRAME IS TOO LONG WHICH SHOULD BE REDUCED AND DELIVERY SHOULD BE STARTED WITH IMMEDIATE EFFECT.

KEEPING IN VIEW OF THE ABOVE FACTS AND PREVIOUS EXPERIENCES WITH US ADMINISTRATION WE SHOULD DO THE FOLLOWING THINGS TO SAFEGUARD OUR NATIONAL INTERESTS:

* IN PARALLEL WITH F-16s WE SHOULD SPEED UP THE PROCESS OF PURCHASING OF J-10s AND OTHER AEW AIRCRAFTS.
* THE JF-17 SHOULD BE FURTHER REFINED SO THAT IT CAN BE SUPPLIMENT OUR FRONT LINE FIGHTERS OR CAN BE USED AS FRONT LINE FIGHTER.


----------



## Quwa

While it sounds very optimistic, I wrote this on another forum:



> 1) Look at the countries that operate or will soon operate them. Turkey, UAE, Morocco, Chile, Poland, Oman and Singapore...they are all countries that we could have serious relations with at varying levels. Turkey is a potential long-term military, economic and political ally...and we are already conducting joint air exercises with them, but with Block-52+ we will both be operating the same standard. Oman is a neighbour on the Arabian Sea, and a potential strategic plus if we play our cards right...we can militarily, strategically and economically be close to them. Our F-16s, P-3Cs and frigates being frequent visitors and perhaps setting up a base there - encircling the Arabian Sea.
> 
> Poland and Singapore are countries we are looking to have decent economic relations with, so why not conduct joint exercises with them as well...they are afterall NATO or pretty close to NATO. Morocco and Chile could have their advantages too, North Africa and South America - we could set a light footprint there as well...plus Chile and Singapore also operate Israeli equipment - notably Phalcon - , we might be able to train around India's Israel-inspired systems...or grab enough exposure for us to have a solid idea about a possible 'similar concept' with the Sino-Pak AWACS.
> 
> UAE operates Block-60s, but there is enough basic commonality between Block-60 and Block-52+ to allow for interoperability, joint-exercises, etc. Again we could establish a long-term relation and strengthen our print in the Arabian Gulf. Now if you look at the 'closeness' of Turkey, UAE and Pakistan...imagine that scary notion of them possibly assisting us with their aircraft when we could need it...or when we need to replace those A/Bs, why not pick up available Block-52+ and 60s if they come super cheap?...or simply conducting international missions together, such a minor Arabian Sea/Greater Middle East pact. I'm not kidding...look at the similarity of aircraft, usage of Link-16 and UAE even considering one of Erieye and Wedgetail. Though with Turkey and UAE growing into powerful economic and political players...a lot is possible.
> 
> 2) By 2010 the Mirage ROSE-II/III might be very old and the PAF may be scaling their operations down a bit. So we will need a precision-strike fighter to "hold the line" until the presently air-superiority oriented JF-17 becomes multi-role. From 2009 to 2012 I think we may see PAF Block-52+ and MLU3 conducting precision air-strikes on the Western border...and if we grow more independent from the West, we may see Block-52+ 'leaking' into Afghanistan against terror camps there. Nonetheless by 2012-2013 I expect the ROSE-I/II to be replaced by strike-capable JF-17 variants that may have different airframes than the current type - i.e. CFTs, enlarged wings, etc.
> 
> 3) To the PAF/Pakistan - Block-52+ conformal fuel tank and comparative enhancements from F-16A/B might be useful. We may be able to learn more about the concepts and perhaps apply them to JF-17 in extending its range and payload. To the Chinese the Block-52+ would be useless...unless it had DRFM and AESA - which is a possibility with PAF, but unlikely. With the advances of Chinese and even local Pakistani initiatives, I think by 2015 the JF-17 will be superior to Block-52+ in terms of avionics, ECM/EW, radar, weapon-systems and maybe even range and payload.
> 
> Those are the possibilities I could come up with...God knows what PAF might be thinking. So please guys act a bit more mature and stop calling the PAF stupid for making its own decisions. At the end of the day we are forum kids with free time, and for them PAF is a professional career.


----------



## fatman17

Neo said:


> Indeed, D will be the first to arrive to allow training in pakistan.
> First F-16 deivered in early eighties was a F-16B for the same purpose, the batch was made of 4 F-16B and 2 F-16A's.



couldnt agree more...
if my memory serves me right there were 12 F-16Bs in the 1st order of 40 a/c and at that time raised eyebrows however PAF wanted a fleet of 100 a/c including attrition replacements.

the new order of 18 F-16C/Ds contains 6 F-16Ds. once again considered a high ratio. however it is my view that they want a full-strength OCU sqdn of 18 a/c so that they can bring PAF pilots up-to-speed on the two types of F-16s that will be in our possession by 2009-10 (F-16A/B MLU and the C/D models). i also expect the PAF to take up the option of a second batch of 18 F-16C/Ds once the delivery of the 1st order starts.


----------



## ahussains

fatman17 said:


> couldnt agree more...
> if my memory serves me right there were 12 F-16Bs in the 1st order of 40 a/c and at that time raised eyebrows however PAF wanted a fleet of 100 a/c including attrition replacements.
> 
> the new order of 18 F-16C/Ds contains 6 F-16Ds. once again considered a high ratio. however it is my view that they want a full-strength OCU sqdn of 18 a/c so that they can bring PAF pilots up-to-speed on the two types of F-16s that will be in our possession by 2009-10 (F-16A/B MLU and the C/D models). i also expect the PAF to take up the option of a second batch of 18 F-16C/Ds once the delivery of the 1st order starts.




See Sundays Jang Left Side Bottom i think F-16s are again not comming


----------



## Proud to be Pakistani

Donot get so disappointed as yet !

*Till the day US is in Afghanistan ........ Their is no turning their back on Pakistan.*


----------



## fatman17

ahussains said:


> See Sundays Jang Left Side Bottom i think F-16s are again not comming



do u really think Jang newspaper is a authentic source for defence related matters??


----------



## Imran Khan

so plz all members told me what we have option now what can pak do for this deal save and complete


----------



## IceCold

*Pentagon orders latest F-16s for Pakistan: FO*

By Hanif Khalid

ISLAMABAD: The United States has initiated work on upgradation of F-16 fighter jets for the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) and the Pentagon has placed orders with the US aircraft manufacturers for provision of the latest version of F-16 jets, Foreign Office spokesman Mohammed Sadiq disclosed to The News on Saturday.

In an exclusive chat, he said the PAF would soon start receiving delivery of the new aircraft.

The planes currently being used by the PAF are being fitted with the latest avionics and other equipment, he said. This up-gradation will make them the most modern planes, he remarked.

The spokesman also discussed the US-Pakistan relations, specially in view of the current negative media campaign in the US papers.

Media has very important role in the foreign policy of Pakistan but policies are never devised under the influence of media, Sadiq said.

Media and think tank reports which create doubts about Pakistans role in the war against terrorism are detrimental to this war and; therefore, the media and think tanks must desist from harming this global effort, he said.

Relations between Pakistan and the US are not only important but these are also very crucial for the peace and stability in the region, he said.

Sadiq said terrorism is a challenge not only for Pakistan but also for the whole world. Global cooperation is a must for elimination of the menace of terrorism, he added.

Referring to statements being made in the current US presidential campaign, Sadiq said unfortunately some presidential hopefuls and politicians of some other countries have tried to make Pakistan an issue in their domestic politics.

Some statements by such persons have made it clear that they neither know about the internal situation in Pakistan nor can they imagine what may be consequences of such rhetoric and how such statements demoralise those who are laying their lives in the war on terror, the foreign office spokesman said.

The spokesman pointed out that policies of the US administration and statements of presidential hopefuls are two different things. He said the Pakistani government would maintain the present level of relationship with whosoever wins the presidential election in the US.

The issuance of statements during run-up to the presidential election and adoption of policies after coming into power are two different things. The Pak-US relations are not important just for one presidential hopeful but for all presidential hopefuls in the United States, he said.

Muhammad Sadiq said US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice would meet President Pervez Musharraf on Jan 23 in Davos and the two sides would discuss proposals for promotion of the bilateral relations.


Mods Note: I wasnt sure to to start a new thread for this particular article, so i pasted it here in the F-16 sticky.


----------



## ahussains

Proud to be Pakistani said:


> Donot get so disappointed as yet !
> 
> *Till the day US is in Afghanistan ........ Their is no turning their back on Pakistan.*



I never belive on US.. the time is too short the current US goverment is just have to go in 7 months and the goverment is not going to give you that JET's its better to make another move towards J-10 or JAS 39 Gripens (will be ideal because SAAB Erieyes are also comming) 

*Its my opinion .... *

100 + JAS 39 in complete replacemnt of F-16 along with the complete technology and production line transfer agrement ..


----------



## Proud to be Pakistani

ahussains said:


> I never belive on US.. the time is too short the current US goverment is just have to go in 7 months and the goverment is not going to give you that JET's its better to make another move towards J-10 or JAS 39 Gripens (will be ideal because SAAB Erieyes are also comming)
> 
> *Its my opinion .... *
> 
> 100 + JAS 39 in complete replacemnt of F-16 along with the complete technology and production line transfer agrement ..



Such options are available but... 

Remains to be seen what happens between the US and Pakistan on WoT!
If our foreign policy changes, then we might see some more bans from US on Pakistan for Arms Sales, which will put us in hands of Chinese or what ever available Jet we can get from the West!


----------



## IceCold

ahussains said:


> I never belive on US.. the time is too short the current US goverment is just have to go in 7 months and the goverment is not going to give you that JET's its better to make another move towards J-10 or JAS 39 Gripens (will be ideal because SAAB Erieyes are also comming)
> 
> *Its my opinion .... *
> 
> 100 + JAS 39 in complete replacemnt of F-16 along with the complete technology and production line transfer agrement ..



If US puts sactions on pakistan, you can say goodbye to gripen as well. Alot of parts used in gripen comes from the US. But i done believe that US would put to many sactions on pakistan, even the new government wont why because once they enter the white house they'll know the exact situation of what is going on by the CIA and i personally dont think so that US would cut pakistan away like it happened back in the 90s. Times were different then and now US needs pakistan's support on WOT. Not only on WOT but i would say that US could not afford pakistan getting slipped away from US grip, not to forget the only islamic *nuclear* armed nation. Hope you get the drill here why i meantioned nuclear.


----------



## ejaz007

*Pentagon orders latest F-16s for Pakistan: FO *
By Hanif Khalid

ISLAMABAD: The United States has initiated work on upgradation of F-16 fighter jets for the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) and the Pentagon has placed orders with the US aircraft manufacturers for provision of the latest version of F-16 jets, Foreign Office spokesman Mohammed Sadiq disclosed to The News on Saturday.
In an exclusive chat, he said the PAF would soon start receiving delivery of the new aircraft.
The planes currently being used by the PAF are being fitted with the latest avionics and other equipment, he said. This up-gradation will make them the most modern planes, he remarked.
The spokesman also discussed the US-Pakistan relations, specially in view of the current negative media campaign in the US papers.
Media has very important role in the foreign policy of Pakistan but policies are never devised under the influence of media, Sadiq said.
Media and think tank reports which create doubts about Pakistans role in the war against terrorism are detrimental to this war and; therefore, the media and think tanks must desist from harming this global effort, he said.
Relations between Pakistan and the US are not only important but these are also very crucial for the peace and stability in the region, he said.
Sadiq said terrorism is a challenge not only for Pakistan but also for the whole world. Global cooperation is a must for elimination of the menace of terrorism, he added.
Referring to statements being made in the current US presidential campaign, Sadiq said unfortunately some presidential hopefuls and politicians of some other countries have tried to make Pakistan an issue in their domestic politics.
Some statements by such persons have made it clear that they neither know about the internal situation in Pakistan nor can they imagine what may be consequences of such rhetoric and how such statements demoralise those who are laying their lives in the war on terror, the foreign office spokesman said.
The spokesman pointed out that policies of the US administration and statements of presidential hopefuls are two different things. He said the Pakistani government would maintain the present level of relationship with whosoever wins the presidential election in the US.
The issuance of statements during run-up to the presidential election and adoption of policies after coming into power are two different things. The Pak-US relations are not important just for one presidential hopeful but for all presidential hopefuls in the United States, he said.
Muhammad Sadiq said US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice would meet President Pervez Musharraf on Jan 23 in Davos and the two sides would discuss proposals for promotion of the bilateral relations. 
Pentagon orders latest F-16s for Pakistan: FO

Latest update on F-16 issue.
Regards,


----------



## Blackpearl

"With the exception of the HUD, many of these features remain controversial to this day.[citation needed] The side-mounted stick makes it difficult for pilots to "switch hands" in order to operate cockpit controls with the right hand, often forcing them to use their left hand to operate controls on the center or right side of the cockpit (the latter being few). The reclined seat makes this difficult, as well as making it somewhat more difficult to look directly to the rear[citation needed] and significantly increasing the risk of neck ache.[11] It has been suggested that the actual benefit in terms of g capability is very close to zero[citation needed], and the real reason for the large incline was to make the seat fit into the aircraft." 

_F-16 Fighting Falcon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia_

I read this in wikipedia.org. Is it true that seat reclination has nothing to do with ability to sustain g loads, rather it was reclined so that pilot can fit in the cockpit?


----------



## ahussains

So far we dont have to trust the US at the time our OLD F-16's Will be MLUed ... 
Any Idea when they starting in Turkey ?


----------



## fatman17

ahussains said:


> So far we dont have to trust the US at the time our OLD F-16's Will be MLUed ...
> Any Idea when they starting in Turkey ?



ahussains - dont be so de-motivated - read the AFM News thread. the PAF F-16 MLU program has commenced as of Jan-08.


----------



## fatman17

ITT wins $78.2M Pakistan contract

Mar. 18, 2008

WASHINGTON (AP) - ITT Corp. (NYSE:ITT) has won a $78.2 million Air Force contract to supply Pakistan with electronic warfare systems for use aboard F-16 fighter jets, the Defense Department said late Tuesday. The purchase will be made under the Foreign Military Sales Program.

Shares of ITT Corp., based in White Plains, N.Y., rose $1.61 to $54.85 Tuesday.


----------



## Iceman

the indian lobby in USA is really working frantically to snub the deal .... this is such a sad thing to begin with. If you happen to have watched the 60th anne edition of MEREY MUTABIQ of Dr Shahid Masood, in which they had invited some indian counterparts, in one of the questions regarding the nuclear issue, the Ex Indian Army Chief said that we have all the rights to procure any technology to bolster our def / tech requirements. Later with regardsto F-16 issue, when he said that India has major concerns over Pakistan's deal of F-16, then Gen Aslam Baig, replied to him.... in a manner as if to say .. wah wah ... apni baari mian concerns or humari baari main .... India has the right to do whatever she wants to .... interesting theory... same thing is being applied over here.... khud they are going in to defence deal ... one after the other with Russia and if pakistan plans to get something. then they have major concerns .... 
and then they say... when will pakistan and india burry the hatchet and be good neighbours .. not with this attitude i tell you ... never with this attitude i say ...


----------



## JEFF

Iceman said:


> the indian lobby in USA is really working frantically to snub the deal .... this is such a sad thing to begin with. If you happen to have watched the 60th anne edition of MEREY MUTABIQ of Dr Shahid Masood, in which they had invited some indian counterparts, in one of the questions regarding the nuclear issue, the Ex Indian Army Chief said that we have all the rights to procure any technology to bolster our def / tech requirements. Later with regardsto F-16 issue, when he said that India has major concerns over Pakistan's deal of F-16, then Gen Aslam Baig, replied to him.... in a manner as if to say .. wah wah ... apni baari mian concerns or humari baari main .... India has the right to do whatever she wants to .... interesting theory... same thing is being applied over here.... khud they are going in to defence deal ... one after the other with Russia and if pakistan plans to get something. then they have major concerns ....
> and then they say... when will pakistan and india burry the hatchet and be good neighbours .. not with this attitude i tell you ... never with this attitude i say ...



See all this is the part of Diplomatic game that is being played by India as any other country in the world. Even pakistan plays this game as well. Lot depends upon who manage to play it well. In case of Indo-Pakistan context, India has manage to emerge as a winner if you can see in case of Russian denial of weapon sale to pakistan.


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## Titanium

I think I heard this before and can make a fare guess..... but anyway welcome. ......err welcome back again.


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## fatman17

JEFF said:


> See all this is the part of Diplomatic game that is being played by India as any other country in the world. Even pakistan plays this game as well. Lot depends upon who manage to play it well. In case of Indo-Pakistan context, India has manage to emerge as a winner if you can see in case of Russian denial of weapon sale to pakistan.



jeff actually things are changing with regards to procurement of major defence related systems by pakistan. 2 major break-throughs are

1. russia allowing the use of RD-93 on the JF-17s being manufactured by china for pakistan. the russians overcame extreme pressure from india on this deal. the russian thinking was very simple - if russia dosnt approve this deal, then someone else will step in and take the potentially US$ 500 mill business.

2. france after throwing all their eggs in the potential indian defence market, realised its folly of ignoring the pakistan market (which was a huge one for them, mirages, missiles, subs, minesweepers etc) are now offering the RC400 and MICA missiles for the pakistani/chinese JF-17s.

the world order is changing. if one country denies you - there is one waiting in the wings to step right in.


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## MastanKhan

US contract for supply of F-16s warfare systems




By Our Correspondent

WASHINGTON, March 19: The Pentagon has awarded a $78.2 million contract to a private manufacturer to supply Pakistan with electronic warfare systems for F-16 fighter jets.

The purchase will be made under the Foreign Military Sales Programme.

In a statement issued on Tuesday evening, the Pentagon identified the contractor as ITT Avionics of Chandler Arizona, which has over 50 years of multi-platform experience in electronic warfare.

ITT provides technologies, systems and services to strategic, tactical and special operations aircraft.

Pakistan has selected the ALQ-211(V) 4 Advanced Integrated Defence Electronics Warfare System known by its acronym AIDEWS.

The Pentagon said the electronic warfare system will be used on the F-16 aircraft Pakistan is buying from the United States.

ITT will also supply associated spares with the AIDEW system, support equipment, training, engineering services, flight test support and data.

Pakistan has already provided $39,003,041 to ITT for this contract.

The warfare will be installed at the aircraft at Kirtland Air Force Base in New Mexico.

The contract had a positive impact on ITTs shares in the New York Stock Exchange, which rose $1.61 to $54.85 on Tuesday.

The United States agreed to sell an unspecified number of F-16 fighter jets to Pakistan in February, 2007. Pakistan initially showed interest in buying 88 aircraft but later reduced the number to between 30 and 40.

AIDEWS provides electronic countermeasures and other capabilities for F-16s.

Recently, the ALQ-211 (V) 4 system was installed and integrated aboard 10 Peace Puma F-16s delivered to Chile.

This integrated radar warning receiver/jammer, with its dual receiver architecture is the first new tactical electronic warfare system for fighter applications in years, says ITT Electronic Systems President Chris Bernhardt. This new digital technology results in more effective defence against threats to warfighters.

AIDEWS also provides a fighter pilot with situational awareness and protection against radar-based threats, including modern surface-to-air and air-to-air weapon systems. It is built upon the ALQ-211 family of EW Systems now being used to support US Special Operations forces.

This version of the ALQ-211 utilises advanced wideband and digital receivers to quickly and accurately detect and identify several, complex emitters when operating in todays high-density threat environment, says Henry Bourne, director of ITTs Rotary Wing EW business area.

AIDEWS provides protection using a highly flexible, programmable technique generator that transmits deceptive countermeasure signals and coordinates use of chaff and flares.

The ALQ-211 alerts the pilot to foil radar threats by seeing the radar before it sees him, says John Dench, director of marketing for ITT Electronic Systems.


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## fatman17

MK-good details - thx


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## Myth_buster_1

My question is. Are we really going to get new F-16s? Even under Bush administration so many issues were been raised by Zionists and Indian lobbyist, and Bush's term is to expire next year! i dont see any US President candidates on Pakistan's side, Obama, McCain, Clinton? Obama wants to attack Pakistan, Clinton is pro Indian, while McCain is a Jewish.

and just how much can we trust the US. i mean how can we be assure that these Planes, missiles, radar are not infected with *spy bugs*?


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## fatman17

23march said:


> My question is. Are we really going to get new F-16s? Even under Bush administration so many issues were been raised by Zionists and Indian lobbyist, and Bush's term is to expire next year! i dont see any US President candidates on Pakistan's side, Obama, McCain, Clinton? Obama wants to attack Pakistan, Clinton is pro Indian, while McCain is a Jewish.
> 
> and just how much can we trust the US. i mean how can we be assure that these Planes, missiles, radar are not infected with *spy bugs*?



take it easy man - everything is on-line!


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## MastanKhan

Israel grounds some F-16 fighters over cancer fears JERUSALEM, March 21, (Reuters) - The Israeli air force said on Friday it was suspending training flights using U.S. made F-16I fighter jets after finding a suspected cancer-causing substance in the cockpit. Israel informed Lockheed Martin Corp, the U.S. defence contractor that manufactures the F-16, that formaldehyde residues were leaking into the cockpit, the military said in a statement. (Posted @ 16:35 PST)


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## pg7

pakistan should have opted for f-16 a/b with fairly quick deliveries and then have mlu on them through turks. us will never handover block 52 with latest weapons and avionics agreed once the recent democratic govt stops them from operations in wazirstan and democrats takeover in us


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## Proud to be Pakistani

*Changing our Foreign Policy at this time is not a piece of Cake the Democratic Setup can eat!*


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## TOPGUN

All i have to say is that after looking at facts and reality we are in a deep whole hence > the f-16 issue really worries me alot with no US support nor any other nation other then China !! but i think for the time being we should be all right if we play our cards right!


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## fatman17

Proud to be Pakistani said:


> *Changing our Foreign Policy at this time is not a piece of Cake the Democratic Setup can eat!*



my read is that the new govt is sending mixed signals! its not going to be easy to reverse the foreign policy 180


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## ejaz007

Before this government came to power US officials used to come to Pakistan, stay four or five hours tell Musharaf what to do and then would fly away. This time they stayed for days. What do you think this means. Pakistan government has told them very clearly that from now onwards all important matters shall be discussed in Parliament.
Its time US government too made changes to its policies.


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## fatman17

ejaz007 said:


> Before this government came to power US officials used to come to Pakistan, stay four or five hours tell Musharaf what to do and then would fly away. This time they stayed for days. What do you think this means. Pakistan government has told them very clearly that from now onwards all important matters shall be discussed in Parliament.
> Its time US government too made changes to its policies.



meaning what!


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## Quwa

ejaz007 said:


> Before this government came to power US officials used to come to Pakistan, stay four or five hours tell Musharaf what to do and then would fly away. This time they stayed for days. What do you think this means. Pakistan government has told them very clearly that from now onwards all important matters shall be discussed in Parliament.
> Its time US government too made changes to its policies.


I strongly suggest you sneak into an university-level intro Global Studies or Political Science course. Even the most leftist populist democratic governments - as in Latin America - succumbed to American & Western Corporate pressure. They start off as sworn in through a fairly clean election, and with time they end up as "Mafiacrats"...and these are leftist people of worker backgrounds. 

Jump into Pakistan and you got pseudo-socialists who would fall to blackmail a lot easier given that in Pakistan they're losing support from the "ghost-riders" in our society. These "ghosts" first include the steadily increasing intellectual elites who value meritocracy and strong independent values (i.e. our interests separate from others'). Then other ghosts are within the middle class who are increasingly leaning towards some "blood-stained solution" to Pakistan's elitist problems. 

Finally the military that started off as a supposed tool to keep the feudals in power and oppress the masses...well it went a *very different route* than its African counterparts. In succession we have seen men of relatively low social backgrounds take command of the most powerful stand-alone institution in the country. The latest general - Kiyani - has begun a very explicit process of trying to equalize life-standards (health, education) for all personnel. No doubt this change cannot come in his tenure alone, but he has set the precedent for an institution that seems to follow precedents very well. 

Basically...this parliament is on the twilight zone, and big changes are approaching Pakistan at a rapid pace. If the U.S. wanted to keep us weak, they could have done it the Egyptian-Israeli method with Pakistan and India. However the U.S. is choosing to put its eggs in India and try to actively damage Pakistan as much as possible. 

They know that if a real activist government took charge of the country - no level of economic sanctions will stop Pakistan from progressing. If you have the 'ideal' government, then Pakistan's social systems - health & education - will reach standards comparable to Cubas'. Now you cover health & education...imagine the MASSIVE talent pool tapping its hands onto the vast energy potentials all over Pakistan. 

Then imagine China buying our energy at ever increasing amounts each year; relying on Pakistan as a link to Middle East; and essentially their Vanguard. Europe will want to access the Chinese market, and they will have to go through Pakistan as well. In this case you now got a "tribute" system - which is a sign of DECLINE for any major power...the West, India, Arabs & Chinese would essentially look to Pakistan to actively PROTECT their interests. It is the same sort of crap the Taifa Kings in Muslim Spain did...paid the Christian Kingdoms to look after interests.

I only pray that Pakistan survives the next couple of decades...but I have hope as it is the one Muslim state created on the basis of Islam.


----------



## khanz

how many have been delivered so far ?


----------



## fatman17

khanz said:


> how many have been delivered so far ?



6 MLUs and 2 delivered to US for upgrade.
block 52 from 2009 onwards.


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## khanz

fatman17 said:


> 6 MLUs and 2 delivered to US for upgrade.
> block 52 from 2009 onwards.



2009 weren't they ordered like 2006 or something why so long ? 
I hope this is the last f-16 order ever.


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## fatman17

khanz said:


> 2009 weren't they ordered like 2006 or something why so long ?
> I hope this is the last f-16 order ever.



LM is producing F-16s for a lot of countries. pak will get their F-16s under the pegging order. poland, chile, israel and a few more countries orders are before us. turkey, morocco come after pakistan.


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## khanz

fatman17 said:


> LM is producing F-16s for a lot of countries. pak will get their F-16s under the pegging order. poland, chile, israel and a few more countries orders are before us. turkey, morocco come after pakistan.



is this block 52 ones ?


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## fatman17

khanz said:


> is this block 52 ones ?



brand new spanking ones!


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## fatman17

it is being reported by Aircraft Illustrated magazine, April -08 issue that:

"the US Navy Adversary Group operating part (14 a/c) of the 28 embargoed F-16A/Bs have agreed to release the 14 F-16A/Bs to the PAF as part of the PAF MLU program. the USAF has already agreed to release their 14 a/c to the MLU program".


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## IceCold

fatman17 said:


> it is being reported by Aircraft Illustrated magazine, April -08 issue that:
> 
> "the US Navy Adversary Group operating part (14 a/c) of the 28 embargoed F-16A/Bs have agreed to release the 14 F-16A/Bs to the PAF as part of the PAF MLU program. the USAF has already agreed to release their 14 a/c to the MLU program".



Sounds encouraging though if it could have had happened earlier the better it would have bin. So intotal 28 aircrafts have been made available for the PAF's MLU programe i.e 14 from the USAF and 14 from the navy.
Sir would we buy anymore of the A/B type F-16 or perhaps this will be the last order for the A/B type?


----------



## fatman17

IceCold said:


> Sounds encouraging though if it could have had happened earlier the better it would have bin. So intotal 28 aircrafts have been made available for the PAF's MLU programe i.e 14 from the USAF and 14 from the navy.
> Sir would we buy anymore of the A/B type F-16 or perhaps this will be the last order for the A/B type?



icecold as reported in AFM of March, USAF is quietly transferring F-16A/B Block 30s to the PAF. i expect PAF to pick-up atleast 18 such a/c. remember the PAF would like to achieve their original order of 111 F-16s. that would be a potent force for the PAF.


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## EagleEyes

*Turkey And Pakistan To Perform Joint Military Exercise*

Turkey and Pakistan will conduct a joint military exercise between April 19th and 30th.

The "Indus Vipers 2008" military exercise will be staged at an air base in Sargodha, Pakistan, Turkey's Air Forces Command said on its website on Saturday.

The command also said Turkey will join with 5 F-16 jets and 49 personnel in the exercise.

The exercise aims to boost cooperation between Turkish and Pakistani air forces. 

200804123134 | Turkey And Pakistan To Perform Joint Military Exercise | General


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## Imran Khan

good news i have some turkish friends here


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## fatman17

WebMaster said:


> *Turkey And Pakistan To Perform Joint Military Exercise*
> 
> Turkey and Pakistan will conduct a joint military exercise between April 19th and 30th.
> 
> The "Indus Vipers 2008" military exercise will be staged at an air base in Sargodha, Pakistan, Turkey's Air Forces Command said on its website on Saturday.
> 
> The command also said Turkey will join with 5 F-16 jets and 49 personnel in the exercise.
> 
> The exercise aims to boost cooperation between Turkish and Pakistani air forces.
> 
> 200804123134 | Turkey And Pakistan To Perform Joint Military Exercise | General



definately a step in the right direction!


----------



## Quwa

fatman17 said:


> icecold as reported in *AFM of March*, USAF is quietly transferring F-16A/B Block 30s to the PAF. i expect PAF to pick-up atleast 18 such a/c. remember the PAF would like to achieve their original order of 111 F-16s. that would be a potent force for the PAF.


March 2008? I remember hearing this on AFM a year back. The Block-30s can be given the standard CCIP upgrade which would equip them with AN/APG-68(V9); JHMCS; Link-16; new ECM/EW, etc. Although these airframes do have some heavy-duty flying on them. 

Regarding F-16 numbers....IIRC of the 111, about 11 were supposed to be reserve/attrition replacements. The active fleet would have consisted of at least 100 F-16s...I imagine C/Ds would have been bought during the 1990s if possible. 

These days I am willing to believe the PAF may have kept its doors open for up to 72 new-built Block-52+...later 54 with AESA. There has been word from pshamim about PAF requesting APG-80 AESA for Block-52+ - and this may be implemented on the optional 18. Hence we may see a deal renegotiation...and with SABR AESA possibly being available in the future, PAF might try a Mirage-type venture by securing used F-16C/Ds where possible. Nonetheless a lot of aircraft can be put into service or into emergency reserve with very contemporary capability...the Block-52+/CCIP/MLUs can put up a very serious fight to the MKIs.


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## fatman17

Mark Sien said:


> March 2008? I remember hearing this on AFM a year back. The Block-30s can be given the standard CCIP upgrade which would equip them with AN/APG-68(V9); JHMCS; Link-16; new ECM/EW, etc. Although these airframes do have some heavy-duty flying on them.
> 
> Regarding F-16 numbers....IIRC of the 111, about 11 were supposed to be reserve/attrition replacements. The active fleet would have consisted of at least 100 F-16s...I imagine C/Ds would have been bought during the 1990s if possible.
> 
> These days I am willing to believe the PAF may have kept its doors open for up to 72 new-built Block-52+...later 54 with AESA. There has been word from pshamim about PAF requesting APG-80 AESA for Block-52+ - and this may be implemented on the optional 18. Hence we may see a deal renegotiation...and with SABR AESA possibly being available in the future, PAF might try a Mirage-type venture by securing used F-16C/Ds where possible. Nonetheless a lot of aircraft can be put into service or into emergency reserve with very contemporary capability...the Block-52+/CCIP/MLUs can put up a very serious fight to the MKIs.



it may have been decided last year, but was confirmed by AFM in their March issue. anyway thx for further furnishing more details of the PAF plans.


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## PakShaheen79

I do hope that China will come up with an AESA soon so that we can get out of this US centric thinking regarding PAF.I know PAF can get its best from US but the price will be paid by our future generation in form of more dependence on USA.We better stay away from them and seriously i am more keen to see J-10 in large numbers in PAF rather then F-16s. I hope the 18 C/Ds will be last procurement from USA.


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## 0UTL4W

will the ex-peace gate f16's get the MLU? What will be the total number of f16's up to the block 52 standard in our fleet?


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## Keysersoze

0UTL4W said:


> will the ex-peace gate f16's get the MLU? What will be the total number of f16's up to the block 52 standard in our fleet?



Outlaw please read through the thread there are 40 or so pages covering this.


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## MastanKhan

OUTL4W,

This a defence related forum. We expect you to be knowledgable and be able to participate on this forum on your own strengths. The only thing that you have posted is what is this and how is that so far.


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## EagleEyes

0UTL4W said:


> Listen man, some people here got other things to do aswell rather than read through the whole 40 paged thread. If you dont want to answer my question then fine but keep your unwanted comments to yourself.



There is nothing unwanted about those comments. It was a polite suggestion which you took it as an unwanted comment. The only "unwanted" comment i see coming is from you alone in this thread. You can only post questions in Air Force Question Thread. Avoid posting questions in these threads, administration has every right to deny/delete/edit any post in the forum.

Please see the rules for more info.


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## fatman17

Pakistan to buy only 18 F-16s

By Our Correspondent WASHINGTON, April 22: Pakistan has decided to halve the number of F-16 fighter jets it&#8217;s buying from the United States due to financial constraints, according to some diplomatic sources.

Pakistan had earlier agreed to buy 36 of these aircraft at a total cost of $5.1 billion, which included associated weapons, spares and upgrading of an earlier fleet purchased in the 1980s.

The proposed fleet of 36 new F-16 Block 50/52 planes was to cost Pakistan $3 billion while it was required to pay additional $650 million for weapons.

The decision to reduce the order by half would also halve the cost of buying new F-16s and that of the weapons associated with them.

Pakistan, however, will still have to spend $1.3 billion on mid-life update and modification of the F-16A/B aircraft purchased earlier. Engine modifications and purchasing some new equipment for the old fleet will cost Pakistan additional $151 million.The sources said the new aircraft will be fully equipped with weapons and facilities that come with an F-16 Block 50/52 aircraft. The planes will be capable of carrying nuclear and non-nuclear weapons.

The United States will, however, have the right to conduct frequent inspections and inventory checking.

&#8220;The media stories that new aircraft will not have the facility to carry a nuclear weapon do not make sense,&#8221; said a defence expert. He pointed out that the French Mirage aircraft now with PAF did not have such facilities when purchased. Pakistanis, however, modified the aircraft to make them nuclear capable.

Pakistan&#8217;s request for new planes and for the modification for its earlier fleet was put on hold after the October 2005 earthquake.


does this mean that pakistan and china have reached agreement on the J-10 (F-20) and funds needs to be diverted.


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## IceCold

fatman17 said:


> does this mean that pakistan and china have reached agreement on the J-10 (F-20) and funds needs to be diverted.



A very bad decision IMO if this is indeed the case. J-10 is as capable as a Block-40 F-16s. So why to go for a low end jet when we can get a more advance one. We need to watch the development of the J-10 closely w.r.t to the developments that are taking place with our adversary. Otherwise we might lack behind way too much, making it almost impossible to catch up.


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## fatman17

Pakistan reduces F-16 purchase from US

Nathan Hodge JDW Senior Americas Reporter - Washington, DC

Farhan Bokhari JDW Correspondent - Islamabad

Key Points
Pakistan is to buy 18 new F-16C/D aircraft from the US, waiving an option to acquire 18 more

Budgetary pressures were behind Pakistan's decision; the deal, originally valued at USD3 billion, is now worth USD498 million


Budgetary pressures have forced the Pakistani government to reduce the number of new F-16s that it plans to purchase from the United States, a high-level Pakistani official has told Jane's . 

An initial agreement between the two countries covered the purchase of 18 F-16s with an option for an additional 18, but Pakistan chose to drop plans for the optional 18 aircraft when it signed the contract in December 2007. The decision only emerged through the Pakistani media on 23 April. 

In 2006, the US Congress approved the sale of 36 new F-16C/D Block 50/52 aircraft to Pakistan as part of a large fighter aircraft modernisation package. When announced, the total value of the F-16 sale - including training, spares and other equipment - was valued at USD3 billion. Pakistan also requested the sale of a USD650 million weapons package, including 500 AIM 120-C5 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAMs), 200 AIM-9M-8/9 Sidewinder missiles and 500 Joint Direct Attack Munition guidance kits. 

However, an official with the US Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) told Jane's on 23 April that the new contract was valued at just USD498 million. "The other 18 [F-16 aircraft] are off the table completely - they are getting 18 and that's it," he said. "They pulled it off the table as part of a review of the contract." 

The new contract covered the 18 aircraft and no spares or additional equipment, he said. The order includes 12 single-seat C-model Block 52 aircraft and six two-seat D-model aircraft. The DSCA source said that the sale would include "no [US] government-furnished equipment and no third-party contractor furnished equipment". 

The Pakistani source said that "high international oil prices and a domestic economic slowdown" had made the decision unavoidable. "We have to look at every possibility to cut expenditure," he said. 

He added that the reduction of the F-16 purchase would not affect the Pakistan Air Force's (PAF's) plans to induct up to 250 of the newly developed JF-17 'Thunder' fighters, jointly developed with China. The PAF plans to induct all the JF-17s by 2013. Negotiations are also continuing for the purchase of China's J-10 fighter aircraft. Pakistani officials have, in the past, said that they are looking at the purchase of between 35 and 40 of the J-10s for between USD1.5 billion and USD1.8 billion. 

The US government has attached a number of extraordinary security conditions to the deal to insure against the transfer of sensitive technology. Among other things, US officials conduct semi-annual inventories of all F-16 equipment and munitions and more frequent inventories of AMRAAMs; and F-16 flights outside Pakistan and participation in exercises with other nations are to be approved in advance by the US government. 

In 2007, PAF Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed told Jane's that the service was interested in procuring more aircraft from China and that the JF-17 would form the "backbone" of the air force. Western observers also suggested that the reduction in the planned purchase of new F-16s may have been driven by mounting concerns among Pakistani leaders that the US might decide to scale back its weapon sales to the country. This follows concerns that the new US administration, which takes office in 2009, could scrutinise Pakistan's role in the 'war on terror'. 

"At the popular level, many Pakistanis simply do not trust the US," said one Western defence analyst based in Islamabad, recalling the US suspension of arms sales to Pakistan in the 1990s. "With that kind of history and background, I would not be surprised - [even] if Pakistan wants access to hi-tech US weapons - that there is concern that the US remains a hard ally to trust." 

Related Articles 
Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed: Pakistan's Chief of Air Staff, jdw.janes.com, 30.03.07

US sets security conditions to Pakistan F-16 sale, jdw.janes.com, 21.07.06


----------



## IceCold

When we get something we dont buy it and when the option will not be there anymore, then we will realize that we need more F-16s and would have to start negotiating from scratch.


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## Neo

IceCold said:


> When we get something we dont buy it and when the option will not be there anymore, then we will realize that we need more F-16s and would have to start negotiating from scratch.



I don't understand the pessimism, Its not like we're cancelling the entire deal. Consider it gass half empty. We're getting 18 new Block 52 F-16C/D plus MLU kitts for exisiting fleet, only the 18 in option will not be materialised.

What we want from this deal is access to higher technology to improve and update future versions of the JF-17 and possibly FC-20. Look at the resemblence between JF-17 and F-16A, our 20+ years of flying experience enabled us to implement a number of sophisticated systems and add changes to the design. All we need is a few Block 52's to achieve what we have in mind, a 4.5 gen version of JF-17.

Not matierlising the option for 18 F-16's will not affect our capabilities, J-10C and FC-20 are definately on the table, these birds will come without any strings attached and reduce our reliance on USA.


----------



## ejaz007

As far as I can foresee the most possible F-16 numbers in PAF should be something like this:

F-16 A/B 32 (in service to go through MLU in phases)
F-16 A/B 28 (originally embargoes but shall now be supplied and go through MLU, 4 already supplied)
F-16 C/D 18 (with an option for 18 more)
Total 78

This makes a total of 6 squadrons of 12 planes a piece. In my view this is quite close to what PAF had originally planned and if they decide to go ahead with remaining option of 18 then the strength is enough.


----------



## fatman17

ejaz007 said:


> As far as I can foresee the most possible F-16 numbers in PAF should be something like this:
> 
> F-16 A/B 32 (in service to go through MLU in phases)
> F-16 A/B 28 (originally embargoes but shall now be supplied and go through MLU, 4 already supplied)
> F-16 C/D 18 (with an option for 18 more)
> Total 78
> 
> This makes a total of 6 squadrons of 12 planes a piece. In my view this is quite close to what PAF had originally planned and if they decide to go ahead with remaining option of 18 then the strength is enough.



full strength PAF sqdn = 18 a/c.


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## IceCold

Neo said:


> I don't understand the pessimism, Its not like we're cancelling the entire deal. Consider it gass half empty. We're getting 18 new Block 52 F-16C/D plus MLU kitts for exisiting fleet, only the 18 in option will not be materialised.
> 
> What we want from this deal is access to higher technology to improve and update future versions of the JF-17 and possibly FC-20. Look at the resemblence between JF-17 and F-16A, our 20+ years of flying experience enabled us to implement a number of sophisticated systems and add changes to the design. All we need is a few Block 52's to achieve what we have in mind, a 4.5 gen version of JF-17.
> 
> Not matierlising the option for 18 F-16's will not affect our capabilities, J-10C and FC-20 are definately on the table, these birds will come without any strings attached and reduce our reliance on USA.



Deals dont happen in just one day, it takes years specially in case of US. Our problem is that every new government reverses the decision took by the previous government, nomatter how good the decision could turn out to be for pakistan. Obiviously JF-17 and J-10 were on the table before also, however the decision of the GOP to go for the F-16 and not for the J-10 is known to all. Block-52 is something yet to be achieved by the chinese. And IMO 18 is not at all a number we could rely on specially when IAF will get new generation jets and that too in bulk. Both J-10 and JF-17 can be a force multiplier but not the force it self. And lets not forget like Blain sir mentioned in one of his posts that PAF was studing the feasibility along with L.M for integrating an AESA radar into the block52, if that was possible, we might see an AESA radar in our next batch of the F-16s but if we are to cut orders, obiviously US too looks for good business and in this case they would not provide us with something that otherwise would have been possible.


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## Neo

Point taken but I won't call an AESA equipped JF-17 merely a force multiplier, its a capable aircraft in a net centric scenario well equipped to intercept the intruder.

The threat coming from MKI and future MRCA will be countered by (new + MLU) 78 F-16's and 40-100 FC-20 which will be more capable than the current J-10.
We're yet more to learn about the FC-20, from what info I have gathered its going to be in the league of Block 52 F-16 if not more.


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## Proud to be Pakistani

This is why i always like Pakistan close in the group of French Air Industry!

JF-17 based on MBDA - AESA will strenghten the fighters capability in its existing structure atleast 2 folds..... Go french way! ... 2 Squadrons of Rafale..


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## indiapakistanfriendship

> JF-17 based on MBDA - AESA will strenghten the fighters capability in its existing structure atleast 2 folds..... Go french way! ... 2 Squadrons of Rafale..



But is the MBDA AESA readar ready in the first place.


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## BATMAN

Neo said:


> The threat coming from MKI and future MRCA will be countered by (new + MLU) 78 F-16's



And I don't expect any dog fights in such encounters.
It will be AIM-120C5 vs. RVV-AE (R-77)  Cowboys vs. Russkies. 
Guess who will come out as winner?


----------



## qaisar52

Hi every one! As we all know that people are taking about advance Fighter planes to buy. Yea F 16 c / d block are advanced 4/5 generation fighter but if you are skilled pilot you can win the fight by making good decisions. Planes can't do any thing. It is the pilot who fly that bird can also make the difference. Recently in the same thread some one post that F7 many times shoot down the f16 when he reach in his peak 4000Ft. so it is the pilot who can make the things in his way. Our 65 war Pilot heros makes it true that you can win the battle when you are well trained and have skill and motivation. You can guard your space and country even you have Technological lover generation plane.
PAF zinda bad


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## Keysersoze

qaisar52 said:


> Hi every one! As we all know that people are taking about advance Fighter planes to buy. Yea F 16 c / d block are advanced 4/5 generation fighter but if you are skilled pilot you can win the fight by making good decisions. Planes can't do any thing. It is the pilot who fly that bird can also make the difference. Recently in the same thread some one post that F7 many times shoot down the f16 when he reach in his peak 4000Ft. so it is the pilot who can make the things in his way. Our 65 war Pilot heros makes it true that you can win the battle when you are well trained and have skill and motivation. You can guard your space and country even you have Technological lover generation plane.
> PAF zinda bad



Qaisar52 sorry to do this to you dude, but the idea that we still live in 1965 and that things have not moved on technologically is not true. Yes well trained pilots do make a difference. But put a well trained pilot in a crappy plane and I am betting chances are that he will be a dead well trained pilot.

GOOD TRAINING + GOOD EQUIPMENT = BETTER RESULT.


Otherwise as I have been saying, the PAF would still be flying Bi-planes.


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## ahussains

Now a days what is the Future of MLU upgrades can these will be gone in this time.


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## fatman17

http://www8.janes.com

_This is an old article from JDW...I wanted to know if there has been any progress / update on this..._

JANE'S DEFENCE WEEKLY - APRIL 21, 2004 

Chinese missile may be for Pakistan's F-16s 
ROBERT HEWSON Editor Jane's Air-Launched Weapons
Bangkok 

China is about to bring a second beyond-visual-range (BVR) air-to-air missile (AAM) to the export market. The new weapon, to be known as the FD-60, is already in service with the People's Liberation Army Air Force as the PL-11. 

In China it equips the Shen- yang J-8II 'Finback' interceptor but, according to the manufacturer, the export version is intended for the F-16 - a clear signal that Pakistan could be the lead customer. 

Development of the FD-60 (PL-11) began in 1987 and was completed in 2000, according to the China National Precision Machinery Import & Export Corporation (CPMIEC). The weapon is described as an air-launched version of the LY-60 surface-to-air missile. It uses semi-active radar homing and has a range of 20-25km. 

The missile borrows heavily from Aspide technology supplied by Italy before an arms embargo was imposed on China following the Tiananmen Square massacre. 

China also had access to early-model US-built AIM-7 Sparrow missiles acquired via Vietnam, from which the Aspide itself is derived. Since the late 1980s Chinese technicians have been developing a Sparrow-class missile that led to the LY-60 and FD-60 weapons. 

Until now most observers had assessed the PL-11/FD-60 programme as a largely unsuccessful effort that had been overtaken by the more advanced PL-12/SD-10 active-radar AAM, developed under the leadership of the China National Aero-Technology Import and Export Corp (CATIC). However, it now appears that work on the PL-11/FD-60 has continued, perhaps to provide a back-up capability in the event of problems with the PL-12/SD-10 but also because CPMIEC has identified an export market for the missile. 

As the FD-60 is based largely on the Aspide/Sparrow design, integrating it with US-built aircraft should be relatively straightforward. Such a missile would be of great interest to existing customers of Chinese equipment, such as Pakistan and Iran, that have inventories of US fighters for which they cannot obtain advanced weapons - chiefly BVR missiles. 

The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is already working on acquiring a BVR combat capability through the SD-10 and JF-17 Thunder (CATIC FC-1 fighter) combination. However, the opportunity to add a BVR AAM to its inventory much sooner (via the F-16) would surely be seized by the PAF command, which has already identified such weapons as one of its highest acquisition priorities.


----------



## HAIDER

US Congress approved and release 10 F16 today. Next month Pakistan will recieve
these F16.


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## EagleEyes

Are these F-16s part of the USAF/USN aircraft fleet. Please let me know more information.


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## IceCold

US approves 10 F-16 to Pakistan
Updated at: 1017 PST, Wednesday, June 04, 2008
WASHINGTON: The United States Congress has agreed to provide ten F-16 fighter planes to Pakistan, which would conclude the deal of twelve F-16 planes.

The first batch of four out of ten F-16 would reach Pakistan during current month whereas four would be provided in July and two would be provided later.

Pakistani diplomatic sources in Washington said that US has promised to give 12 F-16 fighter planes among which two were already given to Pakistan.


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## fatman17

IceCold said:


> US approves 10 F-16 to Pakistan
> Updated at: 1017 PST, Wednesday, June 04, 2008
> WASHINGTON: The United States Congress has agreed to provide ten F-16 fighter planes to Pakistan, which would conclude the deal of twelve F-16 planes.
> 
> The first batch of four out of ten F-16 would reach Pakistan during current month whereas four would be provided in July and two would be provided later.
> 
> Pakistani diplomatic sources in Washington said that US has promised to give 12 F-16 fighter planes among which two were already given to Pakistan.



this is part of the 28 embargoed F-16s produced by LM but were embargoed. glad to see movement on this front.


----------



## fatman17

Associated Press Of Pakistan

US Congress notifies delivery of refurbished F-16s to Pakistan

WASHINGTON, June 4 (APP): The US Congress Tuesday notified delivery of 10 refurbished F-16 fighter aircraft to Pakistan. Of the 12 refurbished planes, Pakistan is getting from the United States, two have already been delivered to it. 
The country will receive eight jets over two months, four each in June and July this year, while the remaining two F-16s will be delivered subsequently. 

Pakistan is receiving the planes as a major non-NATO ally of the United States and their provision signifies close defence relations between the two countries. 

Pakistan also signed an agreement with the United States in 2006 for purchase of 18 new F-16 C and F-16-D aircraft.


----------



## ejaz007

Indeed good news for PAF. Remaining F-16's are expected next year. This also means that the contract signed in 2006 is going ahead. After Democrats took control of congress it was speculated that this and other contracts might suffer.


----------



## fatman17

so by the end of 2008 there should be 2 operational sqdns (36 F-16A Blk 15) plus a OCU sqdn (10 F-16B Blk 15).


----------



## IceCold

fatman17 said:


> this is part of the 28 embargoed F-16s produced by LM but were embargoed. glad to see movement on this front.



Yes sir after all movement seen on this front is something that we were waiting all along. Sir do you have any information of the Naval F-16s which the USN wasnt realizing to be delivered to PAF?


----------



## fatman17

IceCold said:


> Yes sir after all movement seen on this front is something that we were waiting all along. Sir do you have any information of the Naval F-16s which the USN wasnt realizing to be delivered to PAF?



that issue is still pending? however USAF has offered excess F-16 blk 30/40s to PAF which the PAF is considering as a replacement for the naval F-16s.


----------



## Keysersoze

fatman17 said:


> so by the end of 2008 there should be 2 operational sqdns (36 F-16A Blk 15) plus a OCU sqdn (10 F-16B Blk 15).



The F-16's delivered should be the BLK 50's (With the MLU's) oris that yet to come?


----------



## ejaz007

The United States Congress has notified the delivery of ten F-16s to Pakistan, which would conclude the sale of twelve refurbished F-16 aircraft, according to the Associated Press of Pakistan.

The Pakistani Air Force (PAF) will receive four F-16s later this month and four more in July from the United States as part of a batch of 12 refurbished aircraft.

Two F-16s have already been delivered to the PAF back in July of 2007 and the remaining two of the deal will come at a later date, which has yet to be specified.

Pakistan is receiving these jets because of its role as a "major non-NATO ally of the US" & as a key partner in the US war against terror. The US embargoed sales to Pakistan in 1990 over its nuclear weapons program, but President Bush has forged close relations with country and President Pervez Musharraf since the attacks of 9/11.

The Pakistani Air Force signed a separate agreement with the US in 2006 for the sale of 18 new F-16 block 52 jets and associated weapon systems. The country had originally planned to buy 36 fighters but halved its order due to financial constraints.

US to deliver 10 refurbished F-16s to Pakistan


----------



## fatman17

Keysersoze said:


> The F-16's delivered should be the BLK 50's (With the MLU's) oris that yet to come?



keys the logistics of this deal are very weird - the F-16 A blk 15s will be delivered to PAF (without MLU). then these same aircraft will be sent back to the US for the MLU (based on pegging order). one reason is that 6 F-16A/B blk 15 are already in the US for the MLU, so these new deliveries will basically ensure that there is no drop in the number of operational F-16s available to the PAF during the interim period. all the 60 F-16A/Bs (eventually) will undergo MLU and it will take up to 2-3 years to complete this upgrade.


----------



## blain2

If I may add, I suspect that all of the original 32 PAF F-16A/Bs will go through the MLU first and then these surplus American ones.


----------



## fatman17

blain2 said:


> If I may add, I suspect that all of the original 32 PAF F-16A/Bs will go through the MLU first and then these surplus American ones.



quite agree!


----------



## Myth_buster_1

General F-16 News

*US to deliver 10 refurbished F-16s to Pakistan*
June 4, 2008 (by Asif Shamim) - The United States Congress has notified the delivery of ten F-16s to Pakistan, which would conclude the sale of twelve refurbished F-16 aircraft, according to the Associated Press of Pakistan.
The Pakistani Air Force (PAF) will receive four F-16s later this month and four more in July from the United States as part of a batch of 12 refurbished aircraft.

Two F-16s have already been delivered to the PAF back in July of 2007 and the remaining two of the deal will come at a later date, which has yet to be specified.

Pakistan is receiving these jets because of its role as a "major non-NATO ally of the US" & as a key partner in the US war against terror. The US embargoed sales to Pakistan in 1990 over its nuclear weapons program, but President Bush has forged close relations with country and President Pervez Musharraf since the attacks of 9/11.

The Pakistani Air Force signed a separate agreement with the US in 2006 for the sale of 18 new F-16 block 52 jets and associated weapon systems. The country had originally planned to buy 36 fighters but halved its order due to financial constraints.
______________

I guess these 12 refurbished F-16s are free of cost? that brings the F-16 fleet to 42, and will the MLU be modified under an agreement with the Pakistani Aircraft Complex in Kamra or in Turkey?
. Great news.


----------



## IceCold

23march said:


> ______________
> 
> I guess these 12 refurbished F-16s are free of cost? that brings the F-16 fleet to 42, and will the MLU be modified under an agreement with the Pakistani Aircraft Complex in Kamra or in Turkey?
> . Great news.



The jets came under military aid but PAF paid for the refurbishement of all of these jets.


----------



## Myth_buster_1




----------



## fatman17

23march said:


> General F-16 News
> 
> *US to deliver 10 refurbished F-16s to Pakistan*
> June 4, 2008 (by Asif Shamim) - The United States Congress has notified the delivery of ten F-16s to Pakistan, which would conclude the sale of twelve refurbished F-16 aircraft, according to the Associated Press of Pakistan.
> The Pakistani Air Force (PAF) will receive four F-16s later this month and four more in July from the United States as part of a batch of 12 refurbished aircraft.
> 
> Two F-16s have already been delivered to the PAF back in July of 2007 and the remaining two of the deal will come at a later date, which has yet to be specified.
> 
> Pakistan is receiving these jets because of its role as a "major non-NATO ally of the US" & as a key partner in the US war against terror. The US embargoed sales to Pakistan in 1990 over its nuclear weapons program, but President Bush has forged close relations with country and President Pervez Musharraf since the attacks of 9/11.
> 
> The Pakistani Air Force signed a separate agreement with the US in 2006 for the sale of 18 new F-16 block 52 jets and associated weapon systems. The country had originally planned to buy 36 fighters but halved its order due to financial constraints.
> ______________
> 
> I guess these 12 refurbished F-16s are free of cost? that brings the F-16 fleet to 42, and will the MLU be modified under an agreement with the Pakistani Aircraft Complex in Kamra or in Turkey?
> . Great news.



the F-16 fleet stands at 46 by the end of 2008.
32 remaining F-16A/Bs
2 delivered in Dec-07
2 delivered in Mar/Apr-08
10 to be delivered in June (4) / July (4) and Dec (2)-08
46 total

14 F-16A/B with the USNavy are not being transferred. as a replacement USAF is providing surplus F-16A/B blk 30/40.
60 Total
18 F-16C/D blk 50/52 deliveries to start end of 2009 and end 2010.
78 total.
all the 60 F-16A/Bs will be MLUed at Hill AFB, Utah in the USA.


----------



## Myth_buster_1

NOTICE that on the last Picture there is a code LJ on the two f-16s? i have come across F-16.net members saying that it was a joke by the ground crew because it has been at Portugeze AFB for nearly 4 mounts! some say their is a problem with one of the planes engine..


----------



## fatman17

23march said:


> NOTICE that on the last Picture there is a code of LJ on the two f-16s? i have come across F-16.net members saying that it was a joke by the ground crew because it has been Portugeze AFB for nearly 4 mounts! some say their is a problem with one of the planes engine..



not correct/accurate
check AFM news thread in aviation section. there was a delay for a few days before the 2 F-16s left for the US.


----------



## Myth_buster_1

post to be deleted..


----------



## Myth_buster_1

fatman17 said:


> all the 60 F-16A/Bs will be MLUed at Hill AFB, Utah in the USA.



*"On the renovation and overhaul of the existing fleet of F-16 aircraft, the PAF chief said under the Mid-Life Upgrade (MLU) Program six aircraft of PAF would be overhauled in the US while PAFs technicians would also be given training. "We will make every effort to acquire technical know how ultimately enabling us to undertake overhauls and upgrades of the aircraft indigenously," he said.*


----------



## fatman17

^^^i think he was referring to regular overhauls. MLU involves a lot more than a overhaul.

History / The beginning
Reason for the Mid Life Update

When the F-16 entered service in 1979, it was expected that the aircraft would be replaced by a successor in 1999. Due to several reasons, both economical and political, the F-16 will not be replaced by a successor (which is not yet available right now) and will not be phased-out until 2010. In order to maintain the same level of operational capabilities and operational effectiveness of existing aircraft over the next ten to twenty years in this world of ever increasing technology, an extensive modernization program was developed, that later became known as the Mid-Life Update or MLU.

The project started in 1989 with a two year study of the possibilities to upgrade the F-16. In May 1991, the development phase started, which continued until 1997.

Aircraft structural integrity program
The F-16s airframe has been subject to more heavy loads than was predicted in 1979. This resulted in several unpredicted hair cracks in some of the airframe's bulkheads. Before an aircraft can be offered for MLU modification, the current state of the airframe is examined in the extensive Aircraft Structural Integrity Program (PACER SLIP). In this modification program, all bulkheads of the aircraft will be examined and repaired (using the so called Cold Working method) if necessary. After PACER SLIP, the aircraft will be able to last at least another 5,000 flying hours and can complete its life expectancy of 30 years.

Note that hair cracks are not uncommon in aircraft design. To predict the acceptable number and type of cracks, the aircraft manufacturer used information that reflected the exact capabilities of the aircraft. The F-16 was designed as a light and highly maneuverable aircraft that could withstand 9G and last for a minimum of 8,000 flight hours. All data is recorded in a load spectrum that specifies the use of the aircraft (i.e. type of missions), aircraft load and predicted number of landings. 

Each aircraft will take up to 2,500 man hours, which is roughly equal to 5 months. 
Initial work
All five Test, Verification and Installation (TVI) aircraft are stripped to the airframe and re-assembled in a later stadium in order to perform all kinds of work, including the replacement of hundreds of wiring harnesses (the cockpit alone incorporates one hundred new wiring harnesses).

When the aircraft will be completely re-assembled, they will be transported to Edwards Air Force Base in order to perform flight tests. After these flights, the Dutch and Norwegian aircraft will moved to Leeuwarden Air Base for further flight tests. One of the tests include testing of the new fire control radar system under European weather conditions. In a later stadium, the Belgian TVI aircraft follows. At that time, the software tests will commence.

Is it worth all the effort and the money?
Because of the F-16s unpredicted heavier airframe load in the Royal Netherlands Air Force, the aircraft's airframe needs to be overhauled apart from the Mid Life Update to allow the airframe to complete 3,500 flight hours. Keeping the aircraft operational until its 5,000th flight hour make the costs involved in the airframe repair / overhaul affordable and acceptable, making expensive airframe "re-inspections" unnecessary. The costs of the airframe repair / overhaul only form a quarter of the costs involved in the Mid Life Update.

The costs involved in the ASIP maintenance program result in increased operational capabilities as well as an increased life expectancy for the F-16 aircraft. These costs are lower than the price of a new aircraft. After the F-16s Mid Life Update modernization program, the F-16 can compete again with the most advanced fighters of today's world. An increase of both technical and economical life expectancy justify the cost for the Mid Life Update program.

Structure & Avionics / Avionics upgrade
Most of the avionics that will be installed during MLU is existing hardware that is modified for use in the F-16. The Modular Mission Computer however is designed especially for the F-16. This will undoubtedly be one of the most important computers of the F-16 once MLU is completed.

Modular Mission Computer
The most important item of the Mid Life Update package is the Texas Instruments Modular Mission Computer (MMC) which is the key to providing new capabilities such as sensors and weapons, improved pilot-vehicle interface and pilot aiding. Subcontractors are Terma, Nea Lindberg and Signaal. This computer consists of line-replaceable modules (LRMs) based upon several MIPSCO R3000 32-bit RISC microprocessors which will run the ADA high-order language. An object-oriented design will reduce the lead times for new software and will improve the software maintenance. Other features include multiplex bus modules, avionics display processor, display driver and power supplies. The MMC will be the key to driving towards fleetwide commonality of system modes and software.

It will replace three components, namely the computers currently in use for the Expanded Fire Control Computer (XFCC), the Head Up Display Electronics Unit (HUD EU or HUD symbol generator), and the Stores Management System's Expanded Central Interface Unit (XCIU). The MMC will take up 42&#37; less volume in the aircraft, weights 55% less and consumes 37% less electrical power. Of the 24 slots available in the computer, ten will be used for future growth.

Fire Control Radar
The Westinghouse AN/APX-66(V2) Fire Control Radar (FCR) will be equipped with an completely new signal data processor. It allows a track-while-scan mode for up to ten targets as well as a six-on-six AIM-120 AMRAAM capability. Other features include a 25% improvement in detection and tracking range, an enhanced Doppler Beam Sharpening mode (DBS), enhanced air-ground and ground mapping modes, a medium resolutions DNS, an enhanced ECCM, and a color display compatibility. The MLU kit and the receiver will also have an 40% improved reliability over previous versions.

Physical parameters : 

Volume : 3.43 cu. ft. 
Weight : 261.5 lb 
Power : 3285 V/A AC (Max), 155 Watts DC (Nominal) 
Cooling : 11.3 lb/min a 27degr. C
Advanced IFF
The Hazeltine APX-111(V1) Advanced Identification Friend-or-Foe system (AIFF) with increased range performance (100 Nm) will operate via four (rather striking) antennas mounted on the upper forward fuselage in front of the canopy. These "bird slicers", more formally known as Upper Interogator Fuselage Mounted Antenna (FMA) Array, will be the most noticeable exterior change of the Mid Life Update.

The benefits of this AIFF system will be the support for BVR weapons delivery in excess of Radar/Missile limits and the enhanced situational awareness which reduces the chance of a fratricide.

Cockpit displays and indicators
Wide Angle Conventional Head Up display
The new Wide Angle Conventional Head Up Display (WAC HUD) manufactured by GEC Marconi Avionics will increase readability and pilot comfort, offers a wider field of view than the current HUD and adds a raster capability and support for night operations. This HUD is also FLIR and EEGS compatible.

Multi-Function Display
The Multi-Function Display (MFD) set, manufactured by Honeywell, include two 10cm x 10cm (4in x 4in) color active matrix liquid crystal multi-function displays, which will replace the current single monochrome Radar Electro/Optical Indicator Unit (REO-IU) and the Stores Control Panel (SCP) - the Stores Management System display. Both displays will increase the pilot's Situational Awareness drastically and will therefore contribute to increased flight safety.

Enhanced Upgraded Programmable Display Generator
An Enhanced Upgraded Programmable Display Generator (EUPDG), manufactured by Honeywell and Nea Lindberg in Denmark, will support the two color MFD's, allowing the pilot to set up to twelve display programs. One of them includes a color Horizontal Situation Display, which will be, provide the pilot with a God's eye view of the tactical situation. Inside is a 20MHz, 32-bit Intel 80960 Display Processor and a 256K battery-backed RAM system memory. The color graphics controller is based on the T.I. TMS34020 Raster Graphics Chipset.

Audio/Video Recorder
Also new is the Cockpit Television System manufactured by Telemetrics. The current Airborne Video Tape Recorder (AVTR) will be replaced by a TEAC color audio visual tape recorder. Head Up Display images as well as the images of the Multi Function Displays will be selectable for recording which is great for the debriefing of missions.

A helmet-mounted display (HMD) is not part of the present configuration, but program director Philip Schwab believes that most operators may decide to incorporate it if the program continues to progress well. Lockheed Martin and Honeywell have demonstrated the use of the HMD, combined with DTS, to allow the pilot to designate targets of opportunity simply by placing an HMD pipper on the target. EPAF and USAF are to pursue a five-nation HMD program, related to the introduction of the ASRAAM, the Advanced Short Range Air-to-Air Missile, somewhere in the next century. Software and hardware modifications are already being studied by a cockpit review team and both space and wiring is already being accounted for in the current MLU.

On Eglin AFB, Honeywell and GEC Marconi experiment with a Helmet Mounted Cueing System (HMCS), combined with Raytheon's Box-Office agile missile. Honeywell and GEC-Marconi will start with the development and promotion of a Look-And-Shoot Helmet Mounted Cueing System for the F-16. This year, flight tests will take place in one of Lockheed-Martin's F-16B duals.

Side stick controller and throttle grip
The side stick controller (manufactured by Lear Astronics Corporation) and throttle grip are block 50 unit models and will replace the current Block-10/15 stick grips. Both throttle and stick will be equipped with various controls, for an increased variety of functions, including VHF and UHF communications, IFF interrogation, Improved Data Modem operation, secondary flight controls (speed brakes), night vision cockpit blackout selection (NVIS Switch) and boresighting as well as slaving of missiles (now only selectable via the cues of the Stores Control Panel, which requires hands-off-throttle, head-down operation). 

Modifications & Upgrades / Other features
Improved Data Modem
The Improved Data Modem (IDM), developed by the U.S. Naval Research Laboratory and built by Symetrics Inc., will be used to exchange data of various systems and targets with other aircraft (e.g. F-16, A-10, AH-64 or E-8 JSTARS) or with a ground station. Provisions have been made for the Link 16 Joint Tactical Information Distribution System (JTIDS).

Electronic Warfare Management System 
An Electronic Warfare Management System (EWMS) developed by Terma Elektronik AS in Denmark provides centralized EW control for entire EW suite : management of threats (RWR), ANQ pods and advanced chaff/flare systems.

Miniaturized Airborne GPS Receiver

MAGR, Miniaturized Airborne GPS Receiver built by Rockwell-Collins Avionics & Communications Division, operating via an E-Systems antenna. It provides accurate position, velocity and time to support navigation, steering and weapon delivery. This system is smaller and lighter than the Block 40/50 receiver (RCVR 3A), consumes less power but delivers the same performance.

Digital Terrain System
A Digital Terrain System (DTS), which uses the British Aerospace Systems & Equipments (BASE) Terprom system hosted on a Fairchild Defense memory module (128kb). The DTS provides precise navigation (in conjunction with the Rockwell/E-Systems GPS) and performs a number of safety and situational-awareness functions in low-level flight. This does not imply however, that the F-16 will be capable of automatic terrain following. The (former Block-10/-15) F-16 aircraft does not have a digital flight control system, so the system cannot be linked directly to the aircraft's Flight Control System. The pilot will be following the DTS advice manually by flying on the Flight Path Marker in the HUD. The system is as accurate as the accuracy of the maps being used, so this requires extremely accurate maps of the area.

Cockpit Layout 
The cockpit layout will be the one of the F-16C Block-40/50. However, unlike the Block-40/50 aircraft, the MLU F-16s will be equipped with color displays. The cockpit lighing will be compatible with Night Vision Imaging System (NVIS) and all visible surfaces will be painted black. The Night Vision goggles are deactivated in the HUD field-of-view to allow inhibited HUD viewing.

Provisions for recce pods
Up to now, if the F-16 were to carry reconnaissance pods, it had to be specially equipped for that purpose. A number of Dutch F-16s has been equipped to carry the Oudedelft pod. The MLU will see a standard recce interface installed for a number of reconnaissance pods.

Provisions for the Microwave Landing System
This system will be incorporated in the F-16 structure. The system will not be standard equipment on the F-16 and the particular countries have to by it seperately. Although not standard, the system will enhance flight safety by adding an MLS, which can guide the pilot through adverse weather conditions.

Following the DT&E phase
FTT-1 tape

Radar performance evaluation

FTT-2 tape

Weapon modes Air-Air and Air-Ground testing 
Navigation (INS and GPS) 
Basic MMC core functions integration

FTT-3 tape

Datalink 
IFF interrogation 
Horizontal Situation Display 
DTS integration 
Cockpit color screen implementation

FTT-4 tape

"Clean-up" tape (intended as correction to imperfections found in earlier phases)

After the M1 tape, the M2 tape followed in 2000, M3 tape in 2003, M4 tape in 2005 and M5 tape in 2009. All these tapes incorporate other features, including:

M2 tape 

Automatic Target Hand-off System (ATHS) 
Integration of anti radiation missile capability 
Integration of target designator system 
Further implementation of the Digital Terrain System

M3 tape 

Integration of the Link-16 system 
Integration of capability for GPS controlled weapons (GBU30/32) 
Introduction of Helmet Mounted/Cueing Sight 
Introduction of NVG compatible helmets 

M4 tape

Introduction of advanced short-range missile, as a replacement for the current Sidewinder (AIM-9X, IRIS-T) 
Integration of advanced Link-16 functions 
Integration of SNIPER targeting pods 

M5 tape

Integration of capability for stand-off weapons (AGM-154) 
Introduction of more advanced A/G weapons (EGBU-12) 
Introduction of advanced Stores Management System 

Specifications
Engine: One Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-220 turbofan, rated at 14,590 lb.s.t. dry and 23,770 lb.s.t. with afterburning.

Maximum speed: Mach 2.05 at 40,000 feet. Service ceiling 55,000 feet. Maximum range 2400 miles. Initial climb rate 62,000 feet per minute.

Dimensions: wingspan 32 feet 9 1/2 inches, length 49 feet 3 1/2 inches, height 16 feet 8 1/2 inches, wing area 300 square feet.

Weights: 16,285 pounds empty, 25,281 pounds combat, 37,500 pounds maximum takeoff.


----------



## fatman17

$5.1B Proposed in Sales, Upgrades, Weapons for Pakistan&#8217;s F-16s
05-Jun-2008 13:43 EDT

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PAF F-16A drops Mk.82s
(click to view full)On June 28/06, the US DSCA notified Congress via a series of releases of its intention to provide Pakistan with a $5.1 billion Foreign Military Sales package to upgrade the F-16s that serve as the PAF&#8217;s top of the line fighters. Some of these items had been put on hold following the October 2005 earthquake in Pakistan & Kashmir, but the request for 36 new F-16 Block 50/52s is now going ahead following the required 30-day review period, along with new weapons, engine modifications, 60 F-16 upgrade kits that would cover Pakistan&#8217;s older F-16 A/Bs plus other aircraft it might buy second-hand, and related equipment. 

These items are detailed below&#8230; along with controversies the proposed sales have created, and some of the conditions attached to the sale by the US government. By the end of July 2008, Pakistan is expected to have its first 10 planes.

Item 1: 36 New F-16 Block 50/52s &#8211; $3 billion 
Item 2: Weapons for the New F-16s &#8211; $650 Million 
Item 3: F-16A/B Mid-Life Update Modification Kits &#8211; $1.3 billion 
Item 4: F-16A/B Engine Modifications & UP/STAR &#8211; $151 Million 
Deal Updates and Progress [updated] 
Potential Controversies (July 5, 2006) 
Displaying 194 of 3,446 words (about 9 pages) 

sorry sonr have the complete document


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## Blackpearl

Are these F-16s going to be equipped with LANTIRN pods?


----------



## Myth_buster_1

fatman17
"i think he was referring to regular overhauls. MLU involves a lot more than a overhaul."

He did say that only six PAF F-16 would be overhauled in the US while PAFs technicians would also be given training eventually enabling PAC to undertake overhauls and upgrades of the aircraft indigenously...


----------



## Interceptor

*Pakistan will get eight F-16 fighter jets from the United States in two months, local TV channels reported on Wednesday.*


The Congress approved delivery of 10 aircraft to Pakistan and the two aircraft will be delivered later, TV channels reported.

The United States government had delivered two F-16 fighter aircraft in July, 2007, to the Pakistan Air Force, which is part of a $5 billion weapons deal with Pakistan.

These aircraft will join the Pakistan Air Force's current inventory of 36 F-16 fighters.

Delivery of 14 more F-16 fighter aircraft from the US Air Force is planned in the near future, sources said.

These aircraft are being provided by the United States to augment the 18 new F-16 aircraft purchased by the government of Pakistan in an agreement signed September 30, 2006, the sources said.

Under the package to Pakistan also include modernizing 26 used aircraft already in Pakistan's arsenal, as well as providing logistical and other support.

Islamabad's support for the United States in countering the so-called terrorism has apparently made its case stronger.

Pakistan has been trying for years to buy new F-16 jets.

The US Congress cancelled the sale of F-16s to Pakistan in the 1990s fearing that Islamabad would pursue its nuclear weapons program.

Pakistan acquired its F-16 fleet in the mid-1980s and had contracted to buy more.

However, the deal was blocked by a 1989 Congressional ban on arms transfer because of Pakistan's then-covert nuclear weapons program.

The suspended sale of the aircraft, some of which Pakistan had paid for, became an irritant in bilateral relations for many years.

But the relationship warmed markedly after the September 2001 attacks amid cooperation by Pakistan in the war against terrorism, including support for the US-led invasion of Afghanistan. --IRNA 

Report: Pakistan to get eight F-16 jets from US this month


----------



## fatman17

23march said:


> fatman17
> "i think he was referring to regular overhauls. MLU involves a lot more than a overhaul."
> 
> He did say that only six PAF F-16 would be overhauled in the US while PAFs technicians would also be given training eventually enabling PAC to undertake overhauls and upgrades of the aircraft indigenously...



as u can see MLU takes 4-5 months and basically what u get back is a "new a/c". i hope our PAF engineers and technicians can learn this capability but IMO all the MLUs will be done in the US.
the ACM remarks require more clarification - could be mis-leading. my source in the PAF (AirCom level at Kamra) supports the view that all F-16s will be MLUed in the US.


----------



## Blackpearl

fatman17 said:


> $5.1B Proposed in Sales, Upgrades, Weapons for
> Advertisement
> PAF F-16A drops Mk.82s
> (click to view full)On June 28/06, the US DSCA notified Congress via a series of releases of its intention to provide Pakistan with a $5.1 billion Foreign Military Sales package to upgrade the F-16s that serve as the PAFs top of the line fighters. Some of these items had been put on hold following the October 2005 earthquake in Pakistan & Kashmir, but the request for 36 new F-16 Block 50/52s is now going ahead following the required 30-day review period, along with new weapons, engine modifications, 60 F-16 upgrade kits that would cover Pakistans older F-16 A/Bs plus other aircraft it might buy second-hand, and related equipment.
> 
> These items are detailed below along with controversies the proposed sales have created, and some of the conditions attached to the sale by the US government. By the end of July 2008, Pakistan is expected to have its first 10 planes.
> 
> Item 1: 36 New F-16 Block 50/52s  $3 billion
> Item 2: Weapons for the New F-16s  $650 Million
> Item 3: F-16A/B Mid-Life Update Modification Kits  $1.3 billion
> Item 4: F-16A/B Engine Modifications & UP/STAR  $151 Million
> Deal Updates and Progress [updated]
> Potential Controversies (July 5, 2006)
> Displaying 194 of 3,446 words (about 9 pages)
> 
> sorry sonr have the complete document



Please clarify PAF getting 18, or 36 Blk 50/52 F-16?


----------



## Owais

nice photos! 
but why they removed the PAF symbols from airframe??


----------



## IceCold

Blackwater said:


> Please clarify PAF getting 18, or 36 Blk 50/52 F-16?



18 only. As suggested earlier that pakistan had the option to exercise the option of 18 more of these brids, but they chose not too. So for the time being it will be 18 only and not 36.


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## Myth_buster_1

sorry... the post to be deleted..


----------



## shehbazi2001

fatman17 said:


> the F-16 fleet stands at 46 by the end of 2008.
> 32 remaining F-16A/Bs
> 2 delivered in Dec-07
> 2 delivered in Mar/Apr-08
> 10 to be delivered in June (4) / July (4) and Dec (2)-08
> 46 total
> 
> 14 F-16A/B with the USNavy are not being transferred. as a replacement USAF is providing surplus F-16A/B blk 30/40.
> 60 Total
> 18 F-16C/D blk 50/52 deliveries to start end of 2009 and end 2010.
> 78 total.
> all the 60 F-16A/Bs will be MLUed at Hill AFB, Utah in the USA.



Block 30/32 and 40/42 are F-16C, not A, as I know, however I verified it quickly from wikipedia. The last A/Bs ended at Block 20. Infact I noted it in several of your posts.

An interesting fact for some guys would be that starting from Block 30/32 and then 40/42, 50/52 ,each pair is the same thing except engine......

From wiki ...."blocks ending in '0' (e.g., Block 30) are powered by GE, and blocks ending in '2' (e.g., Block 32) are fitted with Pratt & Whitney engines".


You mentioned that 6 of the original 32 F-16As are undergoing MLU. Whats the time-table when those original 32 birds would finish their MLU? I went almost 9-10 pages back but did not find it.


----------



## Myth_buster_1

Owais said:


> nice photos!
> but why they removed the PAF symbols from airframe??



they are off to get MLU..


----------



## Myth_buster_1

shehbazi2001 said:


> Block 30/32 and 40/42 are F-16C, not A, as I know, however I verified it quickly from wikipedia. The last A/Bs ended at Block 20. Infact I noted it in several of your posts.
> 
> An interesting fact for some guys would be that starting from Block 30/32 and then 40/42, 50/52 are the same thing except engine......
> 
> From wiki ...."blocks ending in '0' (e.g., Block 30) are powered by GE, and blocks ending in '2' (e.g., Block 32) are fitted with Pratt & Whitney engines".
> 
> 
> You mentioned that 6 of the original 32 F-16As are undergoing MLU. Whats the time-table when those original 32 birds would finish their MLU? I went almost 9-10 pages back but did not find it.



LAMO its about time we stop referring wackopedia. With all due respect F-16.net is the best site on F-16 technology, you can find just about any thing.


----------



## shehbazi2001

You did not understand it........I meant that 30 and 32.......40 and 42......and 50 and 52 are same except for engine.......

who says that 30 and 50 are the same........


----------



## Myth_buster_1

shehbazi2001 said:


> You did not understand it........I meant that 30 and 32.......40 and 42......and 50 and 52 are same except for engine.......
> 
> who says that 30 and 50 are the same........



opps... ma bad, i miss understood you.


----------



## fatman17

23march said:


> they are still in US air base in Portugal for the last 4 months. But i think they will change the flag to PAF before they fly off to Pakistan.



23march - u have a lot of good information and you seem to be a intelligent guy but in your enthusiasm u tend to mislead or be misled.
the photos of PAF F-16s in question are the first 2 birds of PAF (from the original 32) en-route to US for the MLU. these are not the 10 F-16s being sent to pakistan. also the PAF flag and decal have been removed because of international requirements for aircraft in transit.
also do we really believe that the PAF would abandon their prime asset for a period of 4 months!!! just think about it!


----------



## Myth_buster_1

fatman17 said:


> also do we really believe that the PAF would abandon their prime asset for a period of 4 months!!! just think about it!



According to Leandro Rocha "the original photoghraper" that he has been spotting PAF F-16s in Portuguese Island "Terceira" Lejas AFB since late 2007. What he observed about 82603 & 84713 currently off for "MLU" (thanks for correcting me) were stuck in Lejas for quite a while but dont know present status..
He took the following picture in 2008-01-11
Notice the "LJ" code is not up there yet.



In 2008-02-11 after 2 mouths. 
He reported....
"Emergency landing!!! After one test flight. the pilot reported some problems with the engine and after a few passes over the field, he finally made a safe landing. This f16 along with the other one (84713), were coded LJ a few weeks after this shoot."


And then he noticed "LG" code on the same pair F-16 --> 2008-03-28



So i am not being confusing as you intend to make me..


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## fatman17

Read AFM April issue for clarification...thats all i can say.


----------



## araz

fatman17 said:


> Read AFM April issue for clarification...thats all i can say.



Fatman
Is it possible for you to print the article, or give us a brief version of wht was mentioned. Thanks for clarification.
Araz


----------



## fatman17

araz said:


> Fatman
> Is it possible for you to print the article, or give us a brief version of wht was mentioned. Thanks for clarification.
> Araz



it is available in the AFM Monthly News thread which is on the current Military Aviation section.


----------



## Imran Khan

The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of: Major Defense Equipment (MDE)

- 36 F-16C/D Block 50/52 aircraft with either the F100-PW-229 or F110-GE-129 Increased Performance Engines (IPEs) and APG-68(V)9 radars; 
- 7 spare F100-PW-229 IPE or F110-GE-129 IPE engines; 
- 7 spare APG-68(V)9 radar sets; 
- 36 Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems; 
- 36 AN/ARC-238 SINCGARS radios with HAVE QUICK I/II; 
- 36 Conformal Fuel Tanks (pairs); 
- 36 Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals; 
- 36 Global Positioning Systems (GPS) and Embedded GPS/Inertial Navigation Systems; 
- 36 APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems; 
- 36 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suites without Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM) or AN/ALQ-184 Electronic Counter Measures pod without DRFM or AN/ALQ-131 Electronic Counter Measures pod without DRFM or AN/ALQ-187 Advanced Self-Protection Integrated Suites without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-178 Self-Protection Electronic Warfare Suites without DRFM and 1 Unit Level Trainer;

Associated support equipment, software development/integration, modification kits, capability to employ a wide variety of munitions, spares and repair parts, flight test instrumentation, publications and technical documentation, CONUS-personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics personnel services, and other related requirements to ensure full program supportability will also be provided. The estimated cost is $3 billion.


----------



## Imran Khan

Pakistan - F-16A/B Mid-Life Update Modification Kits


On 28 June 2006, the Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress of a possible Foreign Military Sale to Pakistan of 60 F-16A/B Mid-Life Update Modification kits as well as associated equipment and services. The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $1.3 billion.

The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of 60 F-16A/B Mid-Life Update (MLU) modification and Falcon Star Structural Service Life Enhancement kits consisting of:

- APG-68(V)9 with Synthetic Aperture Radar or APG-66(V)2 radar; 
- Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems; 
- AN/APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems; 
- AN/ALE-47 Advanced Countermeasures Dispenser Systems; 
- Have Quick I/II Radios; Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals; 
- SNIPER (formerly known as AN/AAQ-33 PANTERA) targeting pod capability; 
- Reconnaissance pod capability; 
- Advanced Air Combat Maneuvering Instrumentation Units;
- MDE included in the MLU modification and structural upgrade kits
- 21 ALQ-131 Block II Electronic Countermeasures Pods without the Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM) or ALQ-184 Electronic Countermeasures Pods without DRFM; 
- 60 ALQ-213 Electronic Warfare Management Systems; 
- 1 Unit Level Trainer; and
- 10 APG-68(V)9 spare radar sets.
- Also included are radars, modems, receivers, installation, avionics, spare and repair parts, support equipment, CONUS-personnel training and training equipment, technical assistance, publications and technical documentation, system drawings, U.S. Government and contractor engineering, and other related logistics elements necessary for full program support. The estimated cost is $1.3 billion.


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## fatman17

^^^pls post something we dont know!


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## Myth_buster_1

fatman17 said:


> Read AFM April issue for clarification...thats all i can say.



AFM may not be aware of the ground reality, but what i have posted comes from a eye witness who is a professional aviation photographer and lives on that island by Lajes AFB!


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## Imran Khan

fatman17 said:


> ^^^pls post something we dont know!



sorry sir now i will try my best wait


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## Imran Khan

*all PAF f16 serial nombers*

81-0899 5G-1 Delivered: 82701 F-16A Block 15E 24 Sep 1982 [act] Details 
Current: 82701 11 sqn F-16A Block 15E 22 Oct 1994 [w/o] 
81-0900 5G-2 Delivered: 82702 F-16A Block 15E 18 Oct 1982 [act] Details 
Current: 82702 11 sqn F-16A Block 15E Unknown [act] 
81-0901 5G-3 Delivered: 83703 F-16A Block 15M 09 Nov 1983 [act] Details 
Current: 83703 11 sqn F-16A Block 15M Unknown [act] 
81-0902 5G-4 Delivered: 84704 F-16A Block 15M 22 Dec 1983 [act] Details 
Current: 84704 11 sqn F-16A Block 15M Unknown [act] 
81-0903 5G-5 Delivered: 84705 F-16A Block 15N 13 Jan 1984 [act] Details 
Current: 84705 11 sqn F-16A Block 15N Unknown [act] 
81-0905 5G-7 Delivered: 84707 F-16A Block 15P 21 Mar 1984 [act] Details 
Current: 84707 11 sqn F-16A Block 15P Unknown [act] 
81-0907 5G-9 Delivered: 84709 F-16A Block 15Q 02 May 1984 [act] Details 
Current: 84709 11 sqn F-16A Block 15Q Unknown [act] 
81-0920 5G-22 Delivered: 85722 F-16A Block 15S 11 Feb 1985 [act] Details 
Current: 85722 11 sqn F-16A Block 15S Unknown [act] 
81-0922 5G-24 Delivered:81-0906 5G-8 Delivered: 84708 F-16A Block 15P 13 Apr 1984 [act] Details 
Current: 84708 9 sqn F-16A Block 15P Sep 2004 [act] 
81-0908 5G-10 Delivered: 84710 F-16A Block 15Q 15 May 1984 [act] Details 
Current: 84710 9 sqn F-16A Block 15Q Unknown [act] 
81-0911 5G-13 Delivered: 84713 F-16A Block 15Q 18 Jul 1984 [act] Details 
Current: 84713 9 sqn F-16A Block 15Q Sep 2004 [act] 
81-0912 5G-14 Delivered: 84714 F-16A Block 15R 08 Aug 1984 [act] Details 
Current: 84714 9 sqn F-16A Block 15R Sep 2001 [act] 
81-0913 5G-15 Delivered: 84715 F-16A Block 15R 26 Sep 1984 [act] Details 
Current: 84715 9 sqn F-16A Block 15R Unknown [act] 
81-0917 5G-19 Delivered: 84719 F-16A Block 15S 21 Nov 1984 [act] Details 
Current: 84719 9 sqn F-16A Block 15S Oct 1998 [act] 
81-0922 5G-24 Delivered: 85724 F-16A Block 15T 24 Apr 1985 [act] Details 
Current: 85724 9 sqn F-16A Block 15T Sep 2004 [act] 
81-0936 5H-6 Delivered: 84606 F-16B Block 15M 20 Dec 1983 [act] Details 
Current: 84606 9 sqn F-16B Block 15M Sep 2004 [act] 
81-0938 5H-8 Delivered: 84608 F-16B Block 15N 17 Feb 1984 [act] Details 
Current: 84608 9 sqn F-16B Block 15N Sep 2004 [act] 
81-1505 5H-10 Delivered: 85610 F-16B Block 15V 29 Oct 1985 [act] Details 
Current: 85610 9 sqn F-16B Block 15V Unknown [act] 
85724 F-16A Block 15T 24 Apr 1985 [act] Details 
Current: 85724 9 sqn F-16A Block 15T Sep 2004 [act] 
81-0931 5H-1 Delivered: 82601 F-16B Block 15D 20 Aug 1982 [act] Details 
Current: 82601 11 sqn F-16B Block 15D Unknown [act] 
81-0934 5H-4 Delivered: 82604 F-16B Block 15E 18 Oct 1982 [act] Details 
Current: 82604 11 sqn F-16B Block 15E Unknown [act] 
81-0915 5G-17 Delivered: 84717 F-16A Block 15R 15 Oct 1984 [act] Details 
Current: 84717 38 TW F-16A Block 15R Unknown [act] 
81-0918 5G-20 Delivered: 85720 F-16A Block 15S 17 Dec 1984 [act] Details 
Current: 85720 14 sqn F-16A Block 15S 02 May 1987 [w/o] 
81-0919 5G-21 Delivered: 85721 F-16A Block 15S 23 Jan 1985 [act] Details 
Current: 85721 14 sqn F-16A Block 15S 17 Mar 1994 [w/o] 
81-0923 5G-25 Delivered: 85725 F-16A Block 15U 25 Jun 1985 [act] Details 
Current: 85725 14 sqn F-16A Block 15U 28 Oct 1991 [w/o]


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## Imran Khan

one of the eye witnes say that

They departed today (14-May-2008)!!!!! After 4 months and 3 days on Lajes. 

They are now making flight tests, yesterday they perform 2 of them, soo i think they are almost leaving ~ Leandro Rocha


----------



## falcone

Salams everyone. Here is some interesting news (if you have already seen it/posted it, forgive me):

From F-16.net

"US to deliver 10 refurbished F-16s to Pakistan

June 4, 2008 (by Asif Shamim) - The United States Congress has notified the delivery of ten F-16s to Pakistan, which would conclude the sale of twelve refurbished F-16 aircraft, according to the Associated Press of Pakistan.
The Pakistani Air Force (PAF) will receive four F-16s later this month and four more in July from the United States as part of a batch of 12 refurbished aircraft.

Two F-16s have already been delivered to the PAF back in July of 2007 and the remaining two of the deal will come at a later date, which has yet to be specified.

Pakistan is receiving these jets because of its role as a "major non-NATO ally of the US" & as a key partner in the US war against terror. The US embargoed sales to Pakistan in 1990 over its nuclear weapons program, but President Bush has forged close relations with country and President Pervez Musharraf since the attacks of 9/11.

The Pakistani Air Force signed a separate agreement with the US in 2006 for the sale of 18 new F-16 block 52 jets and associated weapon systems. The country had originally planned to buy 36 fighters but halved its order due to financial constraints."

http://http://www.f-16.net/news_article2914.html


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## Owais

according to some sources, USN had denied to give 14 ex-PAF F-16. means we will be getting only 14 used F-16 so the total number will come down to 64 jets (56MLU + 18 new block52).


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## su-47

Owais said:


> according to some sources, USN had denied to give 14 ex-PAF F-16. means we will be getting only 14 used F-16 so the total number will come down to 64 jets (56MLU + 18 new block52).



56+18=74, not 64.


----------



## fatman17

Owais said:


> according to some sources, USN had denied to give 14 ex-PAF F-16. means we will be getting only 14 used F-16 so the total number will come down to 64 jets (56MLU + 18 new block52).



correct however the USAF has agreed to deliver additional a/c from their excess stocks of F-16 block 30/40 to cover this shortfall, however pressure on USN to release the original 14 F-16s is still on.


----------



## Owais

fatman17 said:


> correct however the USAF has agreed to deliver additional a/c from their excess stocks of F-16 block 30/40 to cover this shortfall, however pressure on USN to release the original 14 F-16s is still on.



what will be the role of block 30/40 in PAF when they are getting much better JF-17 and J-10??


----------



## blain2

Owais said:


> what will be the role of block 30/40 in PAF when they are getting much better JF-17 and J-10??



F-16 is still a very potent MR platform. They are also available on much shorter notice (and less delay) than the JF-17 which is still undergoing weapons trial and the J-10 is not on the immediate horizon.

In my opinion, PAF should gobble up as many excess F-16s as it can get its hands on. Within the Indo-Pak context, the F-16 is an extremely potent and flexible capability.


----------



## qaisar52

I Totaly agree with Blane 2.


----------



## Khalsa

Pakistan Air Force to get four F16 fighter jets on 28th

The United States is set to hand over to the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) four F-16 fighter jets on June 28, defence sources told on Wednesday. 

The four jets are part of a larger consignment of 28 F-16 aircraft, which the US agreed to sell Pakistan in the 1990s to strengthen its defences, in recognition of Pakistan&#8217;s services in the conflict again the Soviets in Afghanistan in the 1980s. However, the delivery of 28 aircrafts was stopped amidst US allegations that Pakistan was pursuing a clandestine nuclear weapons programme. The US agreed to provide the remaining jets after an agreement in 2005 increasing military co-operation between the two allies in the war on terror. The US had already delivered two F-16 aircrafts to the PAF, sources said.

&#8220;With handing over of four more F-16 on June 28, it is hoped that the remaining aircrafts embargoed by the US would also be delivered soon,&#8221; the sources said. 

They said that the A and B models of the jet have been delivered. The US first tried to sell them to other countries but later on inducted the aircrafts into the US Air Force and the US Navy. &#8220;But these aircrafts were used sparingly and not used in a regular manner as the US knew they belonged to Pakistan,&#8221; the sources said, adding that PAF Chief Air Marshal Tanvir Mehmood Ahmad played a key role in getting the aircrafts delivered. &#8220;He was the director of operations when Pakistan placed the order to purchase these F-16 for PAF,&#8221; the sources said. 

On September 30th 2006 the contract was signed between the two governments for the acquisition of 18 new F-16C/D jets with an option of another 18 more. 

The US has also agreed to assist with aircraft upgrades.


----------



## Owais

are there upgraded F-16s???


----------



## Myth_buster_1

Owais said:


> are there upgraded F-16s???



only refurbished block 15.


----------



## Owais

blain2 said:


> F-16 is still a very potent MR platform. They are also available on much shorter notice (and less delay) than the JF-17 which is still undergoing weapons trial and the J-10 is not on the immediate horizon.
> 
> In my opinion, PAF should gobble up as many excess F-16s as it can get its hands on. Within the Indo-Pak context, the F-16 is an extremely potent and flexible capability.



blain,
F-16 Block 40 uses APG 68 radar. can this be replaced by APG-68(V9) or APG66(V2) Fire Control Radar??


----------



## Awesome

It's crap.

I wish we had never made this stupid deal.


----------



## Skywalker

Asim Aquil said:


> It's crap.
> 
> I wish we had never made this stupid deal.



Something is better than nothing.


----------



## Awesome

Nope nothing was better.

We have to get platforms that can defeat Indian birds. These platforms cannot defeat Indian birds. They can maybe put up a good fight if we have them in large numbers, but we're buying 4 of them, maybe 10 even.

It's better to spend your time and money on something worthwhile. Hence in this case _nothing _was a better possession to have.


----------



## Neo

Asim Aquil said:


> Nope nothing was better.
> 
> We have to get platforms that can defeat Indian birds. These platforms cannot defeat Indian birds. They can maybe put up a good fight if we have them in large numbers, but we're buying 4 of them, maybe 10 even.
> 
> It's better to spend your time and money on something worthwhile. Hence in this case _nothing _was a better possession to have.



I beg to differ Asim, check Blain, Haider and Mark's posts to see what advantage PAF will get from these birds. PAF will end up flying approx 100 Block 52 F-16's including many MLU3 birds and might acquire even more in future.

Block 52 F-16C/D is capeable to put a good fight against the MKI and certainly outclasses the rest of IAF inventory. We need them now to close gap till the JF-17, J-10/Fc-20 and possibly J-11 will come in numbers.


----------



## smt

how comparable is the jf17 to the f 16? are they as good as these old 90s era birds that wer getting?


----------



## maqsad

So is the J10 better than these F-16s in terms of dogfighting ability? And the JF-17 about equal?


----------



## IceCold

smt said:


> how comparable is the jf17 to the f 16? are they as good as these old 90s era birds that wer getting?



It is as comparable to the block 15 F-16s.


----------



## Owais

IceCold said:


> It is as comparable to the block 15 F-16s.



I dont think so! the aerodynamic changes in JF-17 (DSI, LEX design etc) made it much better than F-16 of 80's. the KLJ-7 radar is said to be as good as later versions of APG 68. the only problem is that JF17 is a Light weight fighter.


----------



## EagleEyes

Light weight fighter is fine. That is why we are procuring in large numbers. With air-to-air refueling.. the job will be much easier.


----------



## fatman17

^^^why r we repeating these discussions. and why is this thread being allowed. pls merge it in the F-16 main thread.


----------



## IceCold

Owais said:


> I dont think so! the aerodynamic changes in JF-17 (DSI, LEX design etc) made it much better than F-16 of 80's. the KLJ-7 radar is said to be as good as later versions of APG 68. the only problem is that JF17 is a Light weight fighter.



Noone knows the true capability of the JF-17. They maybe even equalvent to the block 30 or 40 for that matter, but what is speculated is that it falls in the same category as a block 15 does. Remember before it was said that JF-17 is 80% as capable as a block-15 F-16. My opinion is that with those modifications that you just listed above it is now equalivent to block -15.


----------



## Owais

IceCold said:


> Noone knows the true capability of the JF-17. They maybe even equalvent to the block 30 or 40 for that matter, but what is speculated is that it falls in the same category as a block 15 does. Remember before it was said that JF-17 is 80% as capable as a block-15 F-16. My opinion is that with those modifications that you just listed above it is now equalivent to block -15.



my dear friend, F-16 block 15 is a BVRless plane. that speculation is correct for payload but avionics are as good as block 40


----------



## Myth_buster_1

Owais said:


> my dear friend, F-16 block 15 is a BVRless plane. that speculation is correct for payload but avionics are as good as block 40



Who said so?? just because PAF F-16s don't carry BVR missiles does not mean block 15 is a "BVR less" fighter..


----------



## fatman17

23march said:


> Who said so?? just because PAF F-16s don't carry BVR missiles does not mean block 15 is a "BVR less" fighter..



i think 23rd march is correct. F-16A/B block-15 does have the BVR capability as long as the missiles are made available (which they r going to be)


----------



## Imran Khan

f-16 crashes by PAF with #and date


Serial No. Cause Date 
85-609 WILDBOAR HIT 16-12-86 
85-720 MISSILE HIT 28-04-87 
84-712 DISORIENTATION 04-09-89 
85-723 ENGINE FAILURE 16-06-91 
85-725 ENGINE FAILURE 27-10-91 
84-607 BIRD HIT 10-11-93 
85-721 G-LOC 25-04-94 
82-701 BIRD HIT 22-10-94


----------



## Owais

23march said:


> Who said so?? just because PAF F-16s don't carry BVR missiles does not mean block 15 is a "BVR less" fighter..



according to me F-16A uses APG 66 Radar having tracking range of 30 km. JF-17 's KLJ-7 Radar have much better range than that. correct me if m wrong


----------



## blain2

Owais said:


> according to me F-16A uses APG 66 Radar having tracking range of 30 km. JF-17 's KLJ-7 Radar have much better range than that. correct me if m wrong



APG-66 has a range of 80NM. Which is more than enough for more than 80% of the BVR engagements. PAF F-16s are blk15 OCUs. Here is a bit more on the OCU's radar fit and weapons integration:



> The APG-66 is a modest air intercept radar. It uses a slotted planar array antenna with 32.6 dB gain in its nominal I/J band operating range, with peak sidelobes at -31 dB in azimuth and -26dB in elevation. The radar is a two stage superhet with intermediate frequencies of 670 MHz and 56 MHz, the lower frequency is digitised and handled by a programmable signal processor. The radar is pulse Doppler with low, medium and high PRFs selected for varying target/engagement geometries. The APG-66 has nominal range of up to 80 NM, with an azimuth scan out to +/- 60 degrees.
> 
> The OCU upgrades to the radar include a facility to slave the seekers of the all aspect AIM-9P-4 Sidewinder to the antenna boresight for dogfight acquisition, and facilities for datalink control of Amraam and alternately, if fitted, can support a continuous wave illuminator for the AIM-7 Sparrow (or similar CW SARH missile). The radar's basic air-air search modes are Uplook and Downlook Search, the latter providing for the the detection of fighter size targets in clutter at 29 NM or better. There are several acquisition modes. Manual modes are Single Target Track and Situation Awareness (STT combined with track while scan on remaining targets), automatic modes comprise four Air Combat Manoeuvring (ACM) modes. These provide for HUD acquisition, vertical acquisition, boresight acquisition and a slewable 60x20 scan acquisition (modes not unlike those in the APG-65).


----------



## shehbazi2001

blain2 said:


> APG-66 has a range of 80NM. Which is more than enough for more than 80&#37; of the BVR engagements. PAF F-16s are blk15 OCUs. Here is a bit more on the OCU's radar fit and weapons integration:




i think that owais is talking of tracking range, not detection range. A good Detection range is nice but having a good tracking range or engagement range is more important because a BVR cant be launched at detection range.

A BVR missile can only be fired when the strength of signals is sufficient to continuously track or lock the target. Also the BVRs fired at extreme range usually dont score a kill. 

Thats what I think. Someone with deeper information may contribute further.


----------



## blain2

shehbazi2001 said:


> i think that owais is talking of tracking range, not detection range. A good Detection range is nice but having a good tracking range or engagement range is more important because a BVR cant be launched at detection range.
> 
> A BVR missile can only be fired when the strength of signals is sufficient to continuously track or lock the target. Also the BVRs fired at extreme range usually dont score a kill.
> 
> Thats what I think. Someone with deeper information may contribute further.



Tracking range is also not less than 50NM if we are talking about specifics. Although all of the numbers are from open sources.


----------



## p2prada

The APG-66 was capable of firing the older AMRAAMs in the USAF. But PAF were not allowed to use the AMRAAM. The source codes to fire these missiles were not given. PAF was never in the deal to get BVR capability anyways. The non BVR F-16 was good enough to counter any indian aircraft at that time.

So, technically the USAF version was BVR capable while the PAF F-16 was not.


----------



## EagleEyes

The F-16 that PAF got was the latest production level aircraft at that time. It is capable of firing the AMRAAM if it has been given to the PAF (which is on order). Clear to clarify more on what source codes your talking about with a few credible links?

Thanks.


----------



## fatman17

p2prada said:


> The APG-66 was capable of firing the older AMRAAMs in the USAF. But PAF were not allowed to use the AMRAAM. The source codes to fire these missiles were not given. PAF was never in the deal to get BVR capability anyways. The non BVR F-16 was good enough to counter any indian aircraft at that time.
> 
> So, technically the USAF version was BVR capable while the PAF F-16 was not.



i beg to disagree, the PAF F-16s blk 15 OCU were always BVR capable as mentioned by blain2 or Neo above. just go to F-16.net and u will get the clarity on this issue.


----------



## p2prada

fatman17 said:


> i beg to disagree, the PAF F-16s blk 15 OCU were always BVR capable as mentioned by blain2 or Neo above. just go to F-16.net and u will get the clarity on this issue.



I did say block 15 can fire AMRAAMs. Tha USAF version could fire them. 
What i meant was that the F-16s that were given to PAF had that ablility "locked" which cannot be "hacked" or modified into unless u have the source codes. The FCS cannot fire a BVR unless it is allowed to do so. But the PAF never got the BVR capability in their contracts.
Dont forget BVR was relatively new technology and needed more fine tuning. No way will the US agree to give away that tech, as with the F-22 now.

US has a long history of denying technology. I dont have any links.


----------



## p2prada

PAF did not have BVRs only cause they were not going to get it atleast in 1983.

Srry for double posting


----------



## Blackpearl

US delivers four F-16s -DAWN - Top Stories; June 26, 2008
*US delivers four F-16s*​

By Our Correspondent

WASHINGTON, June 25: The United States has delivered four refurbished F-16 fighter jets to Pakistan.

Diplomatic sources told DawnNews that two more planes would be delivered next month.

The United States had agreed to provide 12 refurbished F-16s to Pakistan as part of a package to replenish the countrys defence capabilities.

Pakistan received two of these earlier this year while four were delivered last month.

Four F-16s left the United States on Tuesday and are expected to reach Pakistan on June 28.

Two more will be delivered next month.

Pakistan is also buying 18 new F-16 jets from the United States.

Initially, Islamabad had agreed to buy 36 of these aircraft at a total cost of $5.1 billion, which included associated weapons, spares and upgrading of a fleet purchased in the 1980s.

But due to financial constraints it later decided to halve its order.

Pakistan, however, will still have to spend $1.3 billion on mid-life update and modification of the F-16A/B aircraft purchased earlier. Engine modifications and purchasing some new equipment for the old fleet will cost Pakistan an additional $151 million.

The sources said the new aircraft would be equipped with weapons and facilities that came with an F-16 Block 50/52 aircraft. The planes would be capable of carrying nuclear and non-nuclear weapons.

The United States will have the right to conduct frequent inspections and inventory checking.


----------



## blain2

p2prada said:


> I did say block 15 can fire AMRAAMs. Tha USAF version could fire them.
> What i meant was that the F-16s that were given to PAF had that ablility "locked" which cannot be "hacked" or modified into unless u have the source codes. The FCS cannot fire a BVR unless it is allowed to do so. But the PAF never got the BVR capability in their contracts.
> Dont forget BVR was relatively new technology and needed more fine tuning. No way will the US agree to give away that tech, as with the F-22 now.
> 
> US has a long history of denying technology. I dont have any links.



Sorry but you are wrong here. The problem for PAF was always with the release of the AIM-7 back then. The US would not relent. Back then there really was no option aside from the AIM-7 thus nothing really happened. What could have been a code specific issue is if PAF had wanted to integrate Matra 530D to the F-16s then source code issues would have come up.


----------



## Neo

*US delivers four F-16s​*
WASHINGTON, June 25: The United States has delivered four refurbished F-16 fighter jets to Pakistan.

Diplomatic sources told DawnNews that two more planes would be delivered next month.

The United States had agreed to provide 12 refurbished F-16s to Pakistan as part of a package to replenish the countrys defence capabilities.

Pakistan received two of these earlier this year while four were delivered last month.

Four F-16s left the United States on Tuesday and are expected to reach Pakistan on June 28.

Two more will be delivered next month.

Pakistan is also buying 18 new F-16 jets from the United States.

Initially, Islamabad had agreed to buy 36 of these aircraft at a total cost of $5.1 billion, which included associated weapons, spares and upgrading of a fleet purchased in the 1980s.

But due to financial constraints it later decided to halve its order.

Pakistan, however, will still have to spend $1.3 billion on mid-life update and modification of the F-16A/B aircraft purchased earlier. Engine modifications and purchasing some new equipment for the old fleet will cost Pakistan an additional $151 million.

The sources said the new aircraft would be equipped with weapons and facilities that came with an F-16 Block 50/52 aircraft. The planes would be capable of carrying nuclear and non-nuclear weapons.

The United States will have the right to conduct frequent inspections and inventory checking.

US delivers four F-16s -DAWN - Top Stories; June 26, 2008


----------



## Imran Khan

its great news for PAF we wait to see them until 28 its too late man 4 days on the way


----------



## Imran Khan

*Pak to get four more F-16s from US on June 28 * 

Islamabad, June 19: Pakistan will receive four F-16 fighter jets on June 28 from the US, out of the total 28 jets which Washington agreed to supply to it in 2005. This will be the second lot of fighter jets which Pakistan will be receiving. 

Earlier, the US delivered two F-16 aircrafts to the Pakistan Air Force (PAF).

"With handing over of four more F-16 on June 28, it is hoped that the remaining aircrafts embargoed by the US would also be delivered soon," the Daily Times quoted sources as saying.

Pakistan defence sources said that the four jets were a part of a larger consignment of 28 F-16 aircraft, which the US agreed to sell Pakistan in the 1990s to strengthen its defences, in recognition of Pakistan's services in the conflict again the Soviets in Afghanistan in the 1980s, reported the Daily Times.

However, the delivery of 28 aircrafts was stopped amidst US allegations that Pakistan was pursuing a clandestine nuclear weapons programme. The US agreed to provide the remaining jets after an agreement in 2005 increasing military co-operation between the two allies in the war on terror.

The sources said that the A and B models of the jets have been delivered. The US first tried to sell them to other countries, but later on inducted the aircrafts into the US Air Force and the US Navy.

"But these aircrafts were used sparingly and not used in a regular manner as the US knew they belonged to Pakistan," the sources and added that PAF Chief Air Marshal Tanvir Mehmood Ahmad played a key role in getting the aircrafts delivered.


----------



## p2prada

blain2 said:


> Sorry but you are wrong here. *The problem for PAF was always with the release of the AIM-7 back then.* The US would not relent. Back then there really was no option aside from the AIM-7 thus nothing really happened. What could have been a code specific issue is if PAF had wanted to integrate Matra 530D to the F-16s then source code issues would have come up.



That means PAF wasnt getting any BVRs. Other than that, a single source code is not a ON and OFF thing for the entire radar.

If u take a radar as an example, there are source codes for each function of the radar. Look up, look down, tracking, detection range, "FCS interface" etc. Even different bands of the radar can be locked down. for eg: BARS work between microwave bands C to J. The russians could have easily locked, say, the E band and deny its use to the IAF.

So, the US would obviously lock those the PAF wouldnt have any chance of using.

There are source codes to activate other source codes too.

The US and russians employ KILL codes too. That would make any avionics useless. It is speculated that the block 52 F-16s PAF is getting has kill codes for most of the avionics to prevent it from going to the wrong hands(read china).

Electronics is as tricky as democracy.


----------



## fatman17

p2prada said:


> It is *speculated *that the block 52 F-16s PAF is getting has kill codes for most of the avionics to prevent it from going to the wrong hands(read china).
> 
> Electronics is as tricky as democracy.



it is exactly what it is - mere speculation.


----------



## fatman17

Breaking News, Business, Financial and Investing News, Personal Finance & More | Reuters.co.uk

*US eyes electronic-warfare sale to Pakistan*

Fri Jun 27, 2008

WASHINGTON, June 27 (Reuters) - The Bush administration said on Friday it was proposing to sell Pakistan ITT Corp (ITT.N: Quote, Profile, Research) electronic warfare gear valued at up to $75 million to enhance Islamabad's existing F-16 fighter aircraft fleet.

Pakistan has asked about buying as many as 21 AN/ALQ-211(V)9 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suite pods, or AIDEWS, and related equipment, the Pentagon's Defense Security Cooperation Agency said in a notice to lawmakers.

The proposed sale will ensure that the existing fleet is "compatible" with new Lockheed Martin Corp (LMT.N: Quote, Profile, Research) F-16 Block 50/52 fighters being purchased by Islamabad, the notice said.

Electronic warfare targets such things as radars, communications links, computer networks and advanced sensors.

The notice of a potential sale is required by U.S. law. It does not mean the sale has been concluded. (Reporting by Jim Wolf Editing by Mark Porter)


----------



## p2prada

fatman17 said:


> it is exactly what it is - mere speculation.



its not like witnessing an alien ship. There are different degrees in "speculations" itself.

for eg: It was "speculated" that the taliban was in nexus with the Pak army during the US invasion of Afghan and that PA was helping the taliban. It was true.

Or - It is speculated that PA is invloved in the kargil conflict. In Mush's book, he confirmed it.

Or- It is speculated that Nimitz carried nukes on its transit in the bay of bengal.

These speculations cannot be brought to light due to the secrecy invloved.


----------



## shehbazi2001

p2prada said:


> PAF did not have BVRs only cause they were not going to get it atleast in 1983.
> 
> Srry for double posting



I think you are right. When I read the PAF Official History Book which published in 1982-83 (written by Shabbir Hussain I think), the major threat that was mentioned was Mig-23 of IAF equipped with new radars and AA-7 Apex BVRs too. 

Now if the main threat was Mig-23MF, then its not understandable that why the Govt of Pakistan/PAF did not buy a single platform capable of BVR missiles. The F-16A at that time (early 1980s) was not supposed to carry BVRs. However I am sure that PAF would have wanted to get AIM-7s with them but USA was trying to give downgraded things to Pakistan.

Initially they offered A-7 Corsairs to Pakistan and if u see the 1980 edition of Jane's All the World Aircraft, Pakistan is listed as user of Corsair. PAF insisted on something better than a ground attack aircraft. US then offered the F-16/79, F-16A equipped with old J-79 engine. PAF being bent on getting the right thing, at least succeeded in getting F-16A with latest engines. 

But the answer lies outside F-16 deal. At that time (around 1980), PAF decided to get 40 F-16s, 32 Mirage-Vs and 50 A-5s.

I think that we should have opted for Mirage F-1Es instead of Mirage-V and thus could have achieved BVR capability in the form of Super 530D. 

In the 1980s or perhaps late 1970s, almost all countries ordered Mirage F1s like Iraq, Jordan, Libya, Morocco, Qatar, Kuwait, Spain etc. Only Pakistan chose to stick with the same Mirage-V even in the 1980-81 while ordering 32 of them (exocet equipped).

Exocet could have been easily carried by F1 too, rather I think F1 can carry two Exocets. The advantage of F-1 would have been the BVR missiles like Super 530D. Iraq also obtained these missiles for use against Irani F-14s. 

Mirage F-1 was better in all respects as compared to Mirage-3/5. More fuel, more maneuverability, shorter take-off, greater range and climb rate etc

By 1980, Pakistan was almost a nuclear power and for the defence of nuclear installation a BVR capable squadron was extremely important simply because any attack formation coming for the nuclear installations would certainly be escorted by BVR capable air superiority fighters. 

A Sidewinder equipped fighter cant destroy an intruder unless it is 8-9 km away, thus defining an air defence strategy for nuclear installations with Sidewinder equipped fighters cant be fool-proof.

Here it must be clarified that SAMs cant be guarantee for protection of vital national assets. Thats only one layer of defence.

Then in 1994-95, a serious effort was done by ACM Abbas Khattak to acquire Mirage 2000-5 (I think 32 of them) but Govt and some retired PAF officers like Air Marshal Ayyaz A Khan wrote against the deal. 

At that time the daily Muslim used to publish a military special addition once a week, called "MILITARY PANORAMA" and ex-Air Marshal Ayyaz A Khan wrote many articles againt the Mirage-2000 and in favor of Gripen, knowing that quite recently US denied Pakistan its paid F-16s under Pressler or Brown amendments and Gripen was using US-derived engine and US weapons. I still have all those articles of Ayyaz A Khan. I like Gripen but only if SAAB could have provided it with a european engine and european BVR missiles.

A new Gripen with engine of Eurofighter or Rafale and armed with european/south african missiles is a possibility now but I am not sure if that was possible in 1994-95. South Africa has integrated A-Darter with its Gripens and Meteor is already on the list of Gripen. So now, its a good option.

After ACM Abbas Khattak, ACM P Q Mehdi too gave interview to The News, stressing the need for new fighters. Therefore PAF tried its best but its the rulers who are responsible for this whole BVR mess. 

This was to bear fruit in 1999, during Kargil conflict. IAF, feeling the imbalance between the two air forces, launched unhindered operations. Although these operations were mostly inside IH territory and some of those who violated the LoC were shot down, but still it was felt in Pakistan that IAF was very bold during all the operations.


----------



## Owais

> *Four F-16s arrive in Pakistan*
> Updated : Saturday June 28 , 2008 6:44:53 PM
> 
> 
> SARGODHA: At least F-16 fighter jets have arrived in Pakistan from USA on Saturday.
> 
> The fighter planes flew in Pakistan at Mushaf Airbase Sargodha, where a special ceremony is underway regarding handing over of these aircrafts to Pakistan Air Force.
> *
> Now two fighter F-16s are yet to be given to Pakistan. *
> 
> http://www.ary.net.pk/beta/newsdetail.asp?nid=7399



what is this?? are only 8 F-16 going to receive MLU?


----------



## Interceptor

*US eyes electronic-warfare sale to Pakistan*

Fri Jun 27, 2008 8:30pm BST

WASHINGTON, June 27 (Reuters) - The Bush administration said on Friday it was proposing to sell Pakistan ITT Corp (ITT.N: Quote, Profile, Research) electronic warfare gear valued at up to $75 million to enhance Islamabad's existing F-16 fighter aircraft fleet.

Pakistan has asked about buying as many as 21 AN/ALQ-211(V)9 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suite pods, or AIDEWS, and related equipment, the Pentagon's Defense Security Cooperation Agency said in a notice to lawmakers.

The proposed sale will ensure that the existing fleet is "compatible" with new Lockheed Martin Corp (LMT.N: Quote, Profile, Research) F-16 Block 50/52 fighters being purchased by Islamabad, the notice said.

Electronic warfare targets such things as radars, communications links, computer networks and advanced sensors.

The notice of a potential sale is required by U.S. law. It does not mean the sale has been concluded. (Reporting by Jim Wolf Editing by Mark Porter)

US eyes electronic-warfare sale to Pakistan | Reuters


----------



## fatman17

p2prada said:


> its not like witnessing an alien ship. There are different degrees in "speculations" itself.
> 
> for eg: It was "speculated" that the taliban was in nexus with the Pak army during the US invasion of Afghan and that PA was helping the taliban. It was true.
> 
> Or - It is speculated that PA is invloved in the kargil conflict. In Mush's book, he confirmed it.
> 
> Or- It is speculated that Nimitz carried nukes on its transit in the bay of bengal.
> 
> These speculations cannot be brought to light due to the secrecy invloved.



all i can say is "sit down" bro. i would really appreciate some proof of your logic.


----------



## fatman17

Interceptor said:


> *US eyes electronic-warfare sale to Pakistan*
> 
> Fri Jun 27, 2008 8:30pm BST
> 
> WASHINGTON, June 27 (Reuters) - The Bush administration said on Friday it was proposing to sell Pakistan ITT Corp (ITT.N: Quote, Profile, Research) electronic warfare gear valued at up to $75 million to enhance Islamabad's existing F-16 fighter aircraft fleet.
> 
> Pakistan has asked about buying as many as 21 AN/ALQ-211(V)9 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suite pods, or AIDEWS, and related equipment, the Pentagon's Defense Security Cooperation Agency said in a notice to lawmakers.
> 
> The proposed sale will ensure that the existing fleet is "compatible" with new Lockheed Martin Corp (LMT.N: Quote, Profile, Research) F-16 Block 50/52 fighters being purchased by Islamabad, the notice said.
> 
> Electronic warfare targets such things as radars, communications links, computer networks and advanced sensors.
> 
> The notice of a potential sale is required by U.S. law. It does not mean the sale has been concluded. (Reporting by Jim Wolf Editing by Mark Porter)
> 
> US eyes electronic-warfare sale to Pakistan | Reuters



double post! already reported


----------



## fatman17

Owais said:


> what is this?? are only 8 F-16 going to receive MLU?



come on man! u r a senior member - keep up with the news!


----------



## Imran Khan

*Another batch of four F-16s joins PAF *
Updated at: 2302 PST, Saturday, June 28, 2008
ISLAMABAD: A simple but impressive ceremony for handing over of four, F-16 aircraft to Pakistan Air Force was held at PAF Base Mushaf, Sargodha on Saturday. Air Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman, Deputy Chief of the Air Staff (Operations), Pakistan Air Force received the Fighting Falcons from Lt Gen Gary L. North, Commander 9th Air Force and USAF Central Command. Four aircraft have already arrived in Pakistan.

The batch of aircraft which arrived today have the same operational capability as of the already possessed F-16 aircraft by the PAF and will significantly augment its combat capability in defending the aerial frontiers of Pakistan.

The last batch of remaining four F-16 aircraft would be handed over to PAF on July 28, 2008. A contingent of high-ranking officials from Air Forces of Pakistan and United States were also present on the occasion.


----------



## Muradk

Few Photos of the F-16's we got.


----------



## p2prada

fatman17 said:


> all i can say is "sit down" bro. i would really appreciate some proof of your logic.



:: Bharat-Rakshak.com - Indian Military News Headlines ::



> *Curbs on offensive deployment; end-use clauses intrusive*
> 
> NEW DELHI: Indias most ambitious military acquisition from the United States to date comes with strings attached: there are restrictions on its offensive deployment. And further, the end-use monitoring clauses agreed upon by India could mean intrusive inspections.
> 
> A damaging report on the purchase of USS Trenton tabled in Parliament on Friday noted that the $ 50-million deal was finalised after only a visual inspection and with over-reliance on information by the U.S. Navy.
> 
> The Comptroller and Auditor-General raised doubts over the military efficacy of USS Trenton (now INS Jalashwa) especially in view of the restrictions on offensive deployment and permission to the U.S. to conduct an inspection and inventory of all articles transferred under the end-use monitoring clause.
> 
> The report said: Given that the ship is of old vintage [1971], the Indian Navy would remain dependent upon foreign based support  the cost [of refurbishment] may also go up further.
> 
> Moreover, the acquisition decision and inking of the contract took place the same day, signalling haste in purchasing the ship.
> 
> A month ago, six Indian Navy sailors including an officer died aboard the same ship following a toxic gas leak. It later transpired that this class of ships had suffered from this problem and three U.S. Navy sailors lost their lives in a similar incident.




It is known to all military analysts around the world. The americans sell downgraded products with regular inspections. 

Also, it is known that the americans have not given a single source code for any of the F-16 systems since 1983 to pak.

Plus the fact that pak is as close to china as she is to america. They would not give u the complete specs due to obvious reasons.

If they could do that to a 30 year old warship......that too a LPD. I have no doubt the F-16 u are flying will not be the same F-16 the USAF is flying.


----------



## p2prada

nice pics.


----------



## EagleEyes

p2prada said:


> :: Bharat-Rakshak.com - Indian Military News Headlines ::
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is known to all military analysts around the world. The americans sell downgraded products with regular inspections.
> 
> Also, it is known that the americans have not given a single source code for any of the F-16 systems since 1983 to pak.
> 
> Plus the fact that pak is as close to china as she is to america. They would not give u the complete specs due to obvious reasons.
> 
> If they could do that to a 30 year old warship......that too a LPD. I have no doubt the F-16 u are flying will not be the same F-16 the USAF is flying.



What downgraded product are you talking about?

What source codes are you talking about?

Where do you learn this third graded speculations from?


----------



## Imran Khan

i serch these pic too much but not get.thanks sir murad


----------



## Imran Khan

*Four F-16 Falcon fighters join PAF
* 
The Post Report/Agencies

SARGODHA: The Pakistan Air Force received four refurbished F-16 fighter jets from the United States on Saturday at a simple but impressive ceremony at the PAF Mushaf Base.

Pakistan, a major non-NATO ally of the US, received two of these jets earlier this year and another four last month. Two more planes would be delivered next month, according to private television cannels.

The fighter jets are part of a consignment of 12 refurbished planes that Pakistan would receive from the US. Air Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman, deputy operations chief of the air staff, received the fighting falcons from US Air Force Commander Lt General Gary L North.

The batch of the aircrafts has the same operational capability as of the already possessed F-16 aircraft by the PAF and will significantly augment its combat capability in defending the aerial frontiers of the country.

A contingent of high ranking air force officials from Pakistan and the US were also present on the occasion. The government also signed an agreement with the US in 2006 for purchase of 18 new F-16-C and F-16-D aircrafts.

In the start, Islamabad had decided to buy 36 of these aircraft at a total cost of 5.1 billion dollars. These included associated weapons, spares and upgrading of a fleet purchased in the 1980s. But later they halve its order due to financial constraints.

However, Pakistan will still have to spend 1.3 billion dollars on mid-life update and modification of the F-16A/B aircraft, which was purchased earlier. Engine modifications and purchasing some new equipment for the old fleet will cost Pakistan an additional 151 million dollars.

*The new aircrafts will have facilities of carrying nuclear and non-nuclear weapons*. The F-16 is a single-engine, supersonic, multi-role tactical aircraft and the jests were designed to be a cost-effective combat workhorse that can perform various kinds of missions and maintain around-the-clock readiness.

The F-16 is much smaller and lighter than its predecessors, but uses advanced aerodynamics and avionics, including the first use of a relaxed static stability/fly-by-wire flight control system, to achieve enhanced manoeuvre performance. Highly nimble, the F-16 can pull 9-g manoeuvres and can reach a maximum speed of Mach 2+.


----------



## shehbazi2001

imran khan said:


> i serch these pic too much but not get.thanks sir murad





You saw the word APP as caption on all photos therefore you can find it easily now. Just go to APP site and then click on Photo Service,u shall find even more photos this ceremony.....

its APP Photo Service (you can even go to Video service)

But all these falcons are twin-seaters.......


----------



## Muradk

*Then in 1994-95, a serious effort was done by ACM Abbas Khattak to acquire Mirage 2000-5 (I think 32 of them) but Govt and some retired PAF officers like Air Marshal Ayyaz A Khan wrote against the deal*


You read to much and read the wrong material, AM Ayyaz has nothing to to with the Mirage deal. 3 days before the deal Zardari stepped in and wanted to changed the price so the Bastard gets his Commision, but Zardari didn't know who he was ******* with,So the deal was Scrapped.


----------



## p2prada

WebMaster said:


> What downgraded product are you talking about?



Radar systems, RWR, frequency hopping systems and also EW suite. All these will be downgraded for export.



> What source codes are you talking about?



Every electronic items have certain source code......to make it simpler "passwords" to access the inner working of the system. These are denied to export countries unless u request for ToT, which pak is denied.

Thats why india is requesting ToT from all vendors so that we can modify the systems for our own use.
Thats also the reason why russia and israel have been our most trusted suppliers. They provide with the source codes along with the equipment.

India can fire russian and french missiles from any of our fighters which mainly have Israeli radars and FCS. it cant be dont without source codes.

Oh! It took India 6 years to integrate israeli systems with the russian MKI. Cant be done without source codes.




> Where do you learn this third graded speculations fromm?



Just because the media doesnot criticize the military equipment in your country doesnot necessarily mean it is not true.
There are raging debates going on in our country based on Raytheon's proposal to sell AESA equipped MRCA to india. It is basically on "technology denial." the military and govt in india will be criticized on inducting downgraded products. Even the left(chinas best friend) were harping about american systems being downgraded.

We had received downgraded systems from russia in the past too. Though it changed completely now. MKI is the proof. Russians also want to give us the AKULA II(their most advanced Nuclear sub).


----------



## Imran Khan

shehbazi2001 said:


> You saw the word APP as caption on all photos therefore you can find it easily now. Just go to APP site and then click on Photo Service,u shall find even more photos this ceremony.....
> 
> its APP Photo Service (you can even go to Video service)
> 
> But all these falcons are twin-seaters.......



thanks shehbazi brothr i will get more ther


----------



## shehbazi2001

The Source codes are computer programs used to operate and control the automatic systems. Whenever a system is controlled by computer or microprocessor, there will be a set of instructions or a computer code or program that makes the functioning possible.

Almost a decade ago, majority of US aircraft and missile codes were re-written in the C-language. I read it in an issue of "Aviation Week and Space Technology". 

The ECCM features and guidance of the MICA ( even earlier Super 530D) and AMRAAM are through computer programs stored in chips....mostly in onboard computer.......

Now its important that you get these "codes" so that you can modify the ECCM or Guidance algorithms (logics) according to the evolving threat.

Russia is more strict in these downgrading of equipment and it does it openly. Every export version of russian aircraft is downgraded in avionics, radar and weapons codes as compared to own Russian aircraft.

I think thats the reason that India turned to Israel for radars, avioncs and ECM gear.


----------



## p2prada

shehbazi2001 said:


> The Source codes are computer programs used to operate and control the automatic systems. Whenever a system is controlled by computer or microprocessor, there will be a set of instructions or a computer code or program that makes the functioning possible.
> 
> Almost a decade ago, majority of US aircraft and missile codes were re-written in the C-language. I read it in an issue of "Aviation Week and Space Technology".
> 
> The ECCM features and guidance of the MICA ( even earlier Super 530D) and AMRAAM are through computer programs stored in chips....mostly in onboard computer.......
> 
> Now its important that you get these "codes" so that you can modify the ECCM or Guidance algorithms (logics) according to the evolving threat.



A better explaination for source codes




> Russia is more strict in these downgrading of equipment and it does it openly. Every export version of russian aircraft is downgraded in avionics, radar and weapons codes as compared to own Russian aircraft.
> 
> I think thats the reason that India turned to Israel for radars, avioncs and ECM gear.



that was the case a decade ago and the fact that israeli avioncs an ECM are superior.

But, the russians opened up to us after the MKI deal in 1998. Note that the radar on the MKI is russian even if some of the electronics is israeli. We have also inducted 6 batteries of S-300 ABM.

They have also given us controlling stake to renew the GLONASS program.

Not to mention the PAKFA.


----------



## EagleEyes

p2prada,

As long as missiles can be used against India. It is fine. We need to blast the Indian aircrafts. Thats the whole purpose of the missile, and it will do the fine job.


----------



## EagleEyes

> Russia is more strict in these downgrading of equipment and it does it openly. Every export version of russian aircraft is downgraded in avionics, radar and weapons codes as compared to own Russian aircraft.
> 
> I think thats the reason that India turned to Israel for radars, avioncs and ECM gear.



Yes, that is the main reason why India is looking towards Isreali weapon systems. Most of the Russian missile tech is known to Chinese, which gives a clear indication of understanding of the missile to defeat it via EWS.


----------



## p2prada

WebMaster said:


> p2prada,
> 
> As long as missiles can be used against India. It is fine. We need to blast the Indian aircrafts. Thats the whole purpose of the missile, and it will do the fine job.




Just firing the missiles is not enough. With downgraded avionics, it is gonna be tough. You cannot jam as effectively, track as effectively, and also cannot protect your own aircraft from ECM attacks as effectively as the same class of F-16 the US pilot will use.

Also, except for the AESA, there is nothing that the F-16 has that we dont have, maybe more. With downgraded products, u cannot even hope to fly on equal terms with the IAF.

U need to wake up, kick your govts *** and start looking for other vendors that is not chinese or american.

The french could have given u a better deal on the Rafales.


----------



## p2prada

WebMaster said:


> Yes, that is the main reason why India is looking towards Isreali weapon systems. Most of the Russian missile tech is known to Chinese, which gives a clear indication of understanding of the missile to defeat it via EWS.



So, that means we also know about missiles that china uses and since they donot have any partners like israel to provide them with FCS, we can easily defeat chinese missile systems using the far superior israeli EWS.

Thats not how it works.....


----------



## fatman17

all i can say in this dialogue that p2prada should covince the IAF that PAF F-16s are worthless because the US has planted kill codes and if these aircraft are used against india, the IAF will have a turkey-shoot. i already know what the IAF re-action will be!


----------



## p2prada

fatman17 said:


> all i can say in this dialogue that p2prada should covince the IAF that PAF F-16s are worthless because the US has planted kill codes and if these aircraft are used against india, the IAF will have a turkey-shoot. i already know what the IAF re-action will be!



combine that with future military satellites with ELINT capability etc, that will come out of the aerospace command.......What u said is pretty much it.


PAF needs to find better vendors, else PAF will end up like PN against india.


----------



## fatman17

p2prada said:


> combine that with future military satellites with ELINT capability etc, that will come out of the aerospace command.......What u said is pretty much it.
> 
> 
> PAF needs to find better vendors, else PAF will end up like PN against india.



good - keep up this comfort zone attitude!


----------



## p2prada

Do u know why israel has such a good scorecard against russian jets the arabs flew. It is because arab jets that were procured from russia had no EW suites. they didnot even have ECM pods. It was easy picking for the Israelis. the arab pilots would suddenly lose communications with each other and the would have no idea how many fighters were left in the air. Even the radars gave crappy info due to heavy jamming. they flew blind.
Thats the result of downgraded equipment.

Right now, it is the same with regard to PAF against IAF. 

Induction of the Phalcons will totally disable any kind of offensive capabilities of the PAF. Even if PAF did manage to go on the offensive, IAF has better jets, in much larger numbers to counter it.


----------



## Imran Khan

p2prada said:


> Do u know why israel has such a good scorecard against russian jets the arabs flew. It is because arab jets that were procured from russia had no EW suites. they didnot even have ECM pods. It was easy picking for the Israelis. the arab pilots would suddenly lose communications with each other and the would have no idea how many fighters were left in the air. Even the radars gave crappy info due to heavy jamming. they flew blind.
> Thats the result of downgraded equipment.
> 
> Right now, it is the same with regard to PAF against IAF.
> 
> Induction of the Phalcons will totally disable any kind of offensive capabilities of the PAF. Even if PAF did manage to go on the offensive, IAF has better jets, in much larger numbers to counter it.




mr are you kidding with us every thing wich your country have best and world is nothing without india its i see many extrem indians think here also. each equipment wich used by india is best and wich you don't use its useless.


----------



## p2prada

imran khan said:


> mr are you kidding with us every thing wich your country have best and world is nothing without india its i see many extrem indians think here also. each equipment wich used by india is best and wich you don't use its useless.



read my posts carefully dude, u will understand better.


----------



## Imran Khan

p2prada said:


> read my posts carefully dude, u will understand better.



i read your all posts man nothing you agree with any one.


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

P2prada,

I deleted your last post because I did not even know where to start correcting you.

Rubbish about media, wars, and what not.

I appreciate your participation on the forum , but that was nothing but one flame after another.

On this thread stick to the F-16's please.

And on the subject of the F-16's - merely posting stuff like "US did XYZ with this ship hence it will do XZY with that" is not enough. That is nothing but speculation.

Pakistan is not getting the block 60 F-16's with AESA, so yes our F-16's are not the most advanced block, but that was a conscious choice, for various reasons.

With respect to the avionics, ECM packages and radar being "inferior" - please list the specific ECM package being acquired, the specific radar being acquired and the specific weapons systems being acquired and explain how they are inferior to the same systems in the USAF.

Barring that, drop the "inferior" system thing. Speculative posts add nothing of worth to the discussion.

A specific system by system comparison indicating where our stuff is inferior would be most interesting though.


----------



## fatman17

p2prada said:


> Do u know why israel has such a good scorecard against russian jets the arabs flew. *It is because arab jets that were procured from russia had no EW suites. they didnot even have ECM pods. It was easy picking for the Israelis*. the arab pilots would suddenly lose communications with each other and the would have no idea how many fighters were left in the air. Even the radars gave crappy info due to heavy jamming. they flew blind.
> Thats the result of downgraded equipment.
> 
> *Right now, it is the same with regard to PAF against IAF. *
> 
> Induction of the Phalcons will totally disable any kind of offensive capabilities of the PAF. Even if PAF did manage to go on the offensive, IAF has better jets, in much larger numbers to counter it.



keep it up pal u r making a lot of friends here. history belies your assumptions.


----------



## p2prada

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> P2prada,
> 
> A specific system by system comparison indicating where our stuff is inferior would be most interesting though.



Ok sorry for flaming. But I was only pointing out things to think about without the intention of flaming. This is my first time in a professional forum.

I never said a different and inferior system. The same system is downgraded for inferior performance. Downgrading systems are not speculations. They have been happening since 1960. Especially with Pak's closeness to China, the systems will be downgraded.


----------



## p2prada

fatman17 said:


> keep it up pal u r making a lot of friends here. *history belies your assumptions.*



Can u prove otherwise


----------



## IceCold

p2prada said:


> Do u know why israel has such a good scorecard against russian jets the arabs flew. It is because arab jets that were procured from russia had no EW suites. they didnot even have ECM pods. It was easy picking for the Israelis. the arab pilots would suddenly lose communications with each other and the would have no idea how many fighters were left in the air. Even the radars gave crappy info due to heavy jamming. they flew blind.
> Thats the result of downgraded equipment.
> 
> Right now, it is the same with regard to PAF against IAF.
> 
> Induction of the Phalcons will totally disable any kind of offensive capabilities of the PAF. Even if PAF did manage to go on the offensive, IAF has better jets, in much larger numbers to counter it.



Dude how come that when pakistani pilots flew the same jets, they shot down enemy jets to not even a single loss. Read the Six-Day War. The fact was that the loss arabs were suffering had much to do with quality of arab pilots and not the jets.

Stop posting immature posts about we have this and you have that. You want to continue harp over the capabilities of the IAF and how superior they are to PAF sure do it but this isn't the place.


----------



## shehbazi2001

Muradk said:


> *Then in 1994-95, a serious effort was done by ACM Abbas Khattak to acquire Mirage 2000-5 (I think 32 of them) but Govt and some retired PAF officers like Air Marshal Ayyaz A Khan wrote against the deal*
> 
> 
> You read to much and read the wrong material, AM Ayyaz has nothing to to with the Mirage deal. 3 days before the deal Zardari stepped in and wanted to changed the price so the Bastard gets his Commision, but Zardari didn't know who he was ******* with,So the deal was Scrapped.




This commission story was also hinted to by Air Comd (Retd) Jamal A Khan. Regarding the Mirage-2000 deal, he stated that a lot of money can be offered under the table. He had written an article named "Beware of the American Armageddon".
However it is very sad that a major defence deal fell prey to the dishonest practices. Jamal A Khan is a columnist in the Defence Jounral of Pakistan.


----------



## fatman17

IceCold said:


> Dude how come that when pakistani pilots flew the same jets, they shot down enemy jets to not even a single loss. Read the Six-Day War. The fact was that the loss arabs were suffering had much to do with quality of arab pilots and not the jets.
> 
> Stop posting immature posts about we have this and you have that. You want to continue harp over the capabilities of the IAF and how superior they are to PAF sure do it but this isn't the place.



thanks icecold - i just dont want to deal with this Mr. know it all.


----------



## Proud to be Pakistani

Here we can see a typical case of Indian


----------



## Myth_buster_1

Batch of Four F-16s joins Pakistan Air Force 
1Of2laUsofY[/media] - Batch of Four F-16s joins Pakistan Air Force - June 28, 2008


----------



## Myth_buster_1

sorry the news was already posted.


----------



## fatman17

please guys check the thread before u post. its already posted.


----------



## Muradk

23march said:


> Batch of Four F-16s joins Pakistan Air Force
> 1Of2laUsofY[/media] - Batch of Four F-16s joins Pakistan Air Force - June 28, 2008



Jesus christ is some one getting married what was that


----------



## IceCold

fatman17 said:


> thanks icecold - i just dont want to deal with this Mr. know it all.



NP at all Sir.


----------



## araz

fatman17 said:


> thanks icecold - i just dont want to deal with this Mr. know it all.



Fatman.
I wanted to name him Smokin Joe after how he kerpt getting bashed but kept coming back for more but thought better than to do injustice to a great boxer
WaSalam
Araz


----------



## Skywalker

Muradk said:


> Jesus christ is some one getting married what was that



hahahahah...Murad sb very rightly said, but there is one confusion only as Who is marrying who???


----------



## BATMAN

Muradk said:


> Jesus christ is some one getting married what was that



Yes, exactly, considering that those F-16's are dully paid for....
I think ceremony should have been internal and US air staff should have been invited to PAf's internal ceremony/dinner.
It seemed all was staged for the fat cheif guesst 
I wonder if it is done in similar fashion in other states ?


----------



## EagleEyes

They are putting some _makkhan_(butter) on the fat cheif. So he keeps eating, and keep supplying us the F-16s. The PAF definitely has alot of _makkhan_ in its kitchen.


----------



## ejaz007

*Potential sale of AIDEWS pods to Pakistan *

June 26, 2008 (by Asif Shamim) - The Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) notified Congress of a possible Foreign Military Sale to Pakistan of AN/ALQ-211(V)9 AIDEWS Pods as well as associated equipment and services on June 26th.

The principal contractor involved will be ITT Corporation of Clifton, New Jersey. The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $75 million.

The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of 21 AN/ALQ-211(V)9 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suite (AIDEWS) Pods, software and hardware support with repair and return, support equipment, technical assistance, and relevant technical documentation. 

Pakistan intends to purchase the AIDEWS pods to enhance its existing F-16 fighter aircraft. This proposed sale will ensure Pakistans existing fleet is compatible with the new F-16 Block 50/52 aircraft and will allow the Pakistani Air Force (PAF) to modernize its fighter inventory, thereby enabling Pakistan to support both its own air defence needs and coalition operations.

Release of the AIDEWS equipment will neither affect the regional balance of power nor introduce better equipment which may be deemed superior to existing technology in the region.

Implementation of this proposed sale will require multiple trips to Pakistan involving U.S. Government employees and contractors for technical support, and program management over a period of up to 15 years. 

Potential sale of AIDEWS pods to Pakistan


----------



## fatman17

Defense Security Cooperation Agency

On the web: DSCA Home Media/Public Contact: (703) 601-3859
Transmittal No. 08-54
Pakistan - AN/ALQ-211(V)9 AIDEWS Pods

WASHINGTON, June 26, 2008 &#8211; The Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress of a possible Foreign Military Sale to Pakistan of AN/ALQ-211(V)9 AIDEWS Pods as well as associated equipment and services. The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $75 million.
The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of 21 AN/ALQ-211(V)9 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suite (AIDEWS) Pods, software support, repair and return, spare and repair parts, support equipment, technical assistance, publications and technical documentation, U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics personnel services, and other related elements of program support. The estimated cost is $75 million.
Given its geo-strategic location and partnership in the Global War on Terrorism (GWOT), Pakistan is a vital ally of the United States, as reflected in the June 2004 designation of Pakistan as a Major Non-North Atlantic Treaty Organization Ally. This proposed sale will contribute to the foreign policy and national security of the United States by helping an ally meet its legitimate defense requirements.
Pakistan intends to purchase the AIDEWS pods to enhance its existing F-16 fighter aircraft. This proposed sale will ensure Pakistan&#8217;s existing fleet is compatible with the new F-16 Block 50/52 aircraft.
Consistent with U.S. conventional arms transfer policy and arms control initiatives, this potential sale will allow the Pakistani Air Force to modernize its fighter inventory, thereby enabling Pakistan to support both its own air defense needs and coalition operations.
Release of the AIDEWS equipment to Pakistan will neither affect the regional balance of power nor introduce a new technology as this level of capability or higher already exists in other countries in the region.
The principal contractor will be ITT Corporation of Clifton, New Jersey. There are no known offset agreements in connection with this proposed sale.
Implementation of this proposed sale will require multiple trips to Pakistan involving U.S. Government and contractor representatives for technical reviews, support, and program management over a period of up to 15 years.
There will be no adverse impact on U.S. defense readiness as a result of this proposed sale.
*Implementation of this proposed sale will not require the assignment of any additional U.S. Government representatives or contractor representatives to Turkey.*

There will be no adverse impact on U.S. defense readiness as a result of this proposed sale.
This notice of a potential sale is required by law; it does not mean that the sale has been concluded.

*does this mean that MLU will also take place in turkey?*


----------



## JK!

fatman17 said:


> *does this mean that MLU will also take place in turkey?*



Due to Turkish experience with F16s such as licence manufacture I believe that some contracts for the Pakistani MLU were given to them though I can't recall which ones or where I saw this I'll have a check for you.


----------



## Myth_buster_1

someone please try to get hold of Asif Shamim from f-16.net he can be helpful in pakdef. 

here is a ACM remarks regarding PAF F-16 MLU.
On the renovation and overhaul of the existing fleet of F-16 aircraft, the PAF chief said under the Mid-Life Upgrade (MLU) Program six aircraft of PAF would be overhauled in the US while PAFs technicians would also be given training. "We will make every effort to acquire technical know how ultimately enabling us to undertake overhauls and upgrades of the aircraft indigenously," he said.


----------



## shehbazi2001

shehbazi2001 said:


> The Source codes are computer programs used to operate and control the automatic systems. Whenever a system is controlled by computer or microprocessor, there will be a set of instructions or a computer code or program that makes the functioning possible.
> 
> Almost a decade ago, majority of US aircraft and missile codes were re-written in the C-language. I read it in an issue of "Aviation Week and Space Technology".
> 
> The ECCM features and guidance of the MICA ( even earlier Super 530D) and AMRAAM are through computer programs stored in chips....mostly in onboard computer.......
> 
> Now its important that you get these "codes" so that you can modify the ECCM or Guidance algorithms (logics) according to the evolving threat.
> 
> Russia is more strict in these downgrading of equipment and it does it openly. Every export version of russian aircraft is downgraded in avionics, radar and weapons codes as compared to own Russian aircraft.
> 
> I think thats the reason that India turned to Israel for radars, avioncs and ECM gear.





A few more words on the flight control software of the aircrafts from Greg Goebel / In The Public Domain

"The processing power of the F-35 has presented the electronics system developers with a formidable software challenge. The F-22 Raptor uses about 2.5 million lines of software, but the F-35 will use 5.6 million lines of code. The F-35 not only has a more advanced electronics system, but it operates in both air-to-air and air-to-ground modes, and is being built in three different versions. The software design strategy is focusing on modularizing the code so that the portions that are unique to each F-35 variant can be isolated, and the remaining code used as-is on all three variants. The portions that are unique to each variant are a minority, about 1.1 million lines.

In addition, the code is largely executed by an interpretive software layer known as "middleware" that isolates the code from the specific details of the processor used. In principle, this will allow software to be ported to new processors as they become available, requiring only new middleware and maybe a few software tweaks. Interestingly, the code is written in C/C++, strongly suggesting that the military's effort to create Ada as a standardized programming language for defense projects was a dead end."


So as the F-16 is too multi-role like JSF, the main program will be of at least a few million lines long. And this software makes the aircrafts systems run. All weapons are most likely fired through this software too.

So it seems that with hardware (F-16), we need to get the software too, so that we can integrate other weapons too ourselves by changing and testing the software. 

Here I must add that sometimes the manufacturers upgrade the weapons system simply by installing the new software. And this new program is sold for millions.


----------



## araz

23march said:


> someone please try to get hold of Asif Shamim from f-16.net he can be helpful in pakdef.
> 
> here is a ACM remarks regarding PAF F-16 MLU.
> On the renovation and overhaul of the existing fleet of F-16 aircraft, the PAF chief said under the Mid-Life Upgrade (MLU) Program six aircraft of PAF would be overhauled in the US while PAFs technicians would also be given training. "We will make every effort to acquire technical know how ultimately enabling us to undertake overhauls and upgrades of the aircraft indigenously," he said.



Ihave seen this statement. As far as I remember, there was talk of Turkey doing MLU on our F16s but nothing was ever announced which has contributed to the confusion.
With Thunder and J10 coming on , PAF will really have their hands full if they decide to MLU their F16s as well. Having sauid that it will give them the opportunity of familiarizing themselves with the newer version and will give them greater insight into the plane, which will be invaluable.
Araz


----------



## Always Neutral

shehbazi2001 said:


> A few more words on the flight control software of the aircrafts from Greg Goebel / In The Public Domain
> 
> "The processing power of the F-35 has presented the electronics system developers with a formidable software challenge. The F-22 Raptor uses about 2.5 million lines of software, but the F-35 will use 5.6 million lines of code. The F-35 not only has a more advanced electronics system, but it operates in both air-to-air and air-to-ground modes, and is being built in three different versions. The software design strategy is focusing on modularizing the code so that the portions that are unique to each F-35 variant can be isolated, and the remaining code used as-is on all three variants. The portions that are unique to each variant are a minority, about 1.1 million lines.
> 
> In addition, the code is largely executed by an interpretive software layer known as "middleware" that isolates the code from the specific details of the processor used. In principle, this will allow software to be ported to new processors as they become available, requiring only new middleware and maybe a few software tweaks. Interestingly, the code is written in C/C++, strongly suggesting that the military's effort to create Ada as a standardized programming language for defense projects was a dead end."
> 
> 
> So as the F-16 is too multi-role like JSF, the main program will be of at least a few million lines long. And this software makes the aircrafts systems run. All weapons are most likely fired through this software too.
> 
> So it seems that with hardware (F-16), we need to get the software too, so that we can integrate other weapons too ourselves by changing and testing the software.
> 
> Here I must add that sometimes the manufacturers upgrade the weapons system simply by installing the new software. And this new program is sold for millions.




Dear Shebazi,

I must compliment you on your posts. They are always educative.

Are your from the PAF ?

Regards


----------



## shehbazi2001

Always Neutral said:


> Dear Shebazi,
> 
> I must compliment you on your posts. They are always educative.
> 
> Are your from the PAF ?
> 
> Regards




Thanks buddy. Its just because I have been studying literature on the military aviation from my childhood and its just passion that I continue to study it even though its not my job.

No I am not in PAF although my father did serve in PAF. He was a technician in PAF and he was my first teacher. 10 years ago, I did try to join PAF but could not pass through ISSB. I mentioned it in a thread. I am an engineer and am doing Phd in Engineering.


----------



## fatman17

shehbazi2001 said:


> Thanks buddy. Its just because I have been studying literature on the military aviation from my childhood and its just passion that I continue to study it even though its not my job.
> 
> No I am not in PAF although my father did serve in PAF. He was a technician in PAF and he was my first teacher. 10 years ago, I did try to join PAF but could not pass through ISSB. I mentioned it in a thread. I am an engineer and am doing Phd in Engineering.



good for you! keep it up!


----------



## BATMAN

WebMaster said:


> They are putting some _makkhan_(butter) on the fat cheif. So he keeps eating, and keep supplying us the F-16s. The PAF definitely has alot of _makkhan_ in its kitchen.



We should treat all our guests with respect but at the same time *if *Pakistan care less US can't dent us more.
LHM is willing to build F-16 in india plus other defence contractors are about to transfer sensitive technology to indians and we have a lolypop of F-16!
We should also demand aircraft engine factory in Pakistan. Other wise US be denied Pakistan's military assistance.


----------



## blain2

Two things gents.

a) The MLU will take place in the US. The mention of Turkey in the US Congressional notification is a typo afaik.

b) The ceremony to mark the arrival of the F-16s is not really unprecedented. It has happened in the past and happens all over the world with countries showcasing their own culture just to add a bit of flavor to the event. It may look lame to Pakistanis but most foreigners eat this stuff up (along with the top class cuisine served during such occasions).


----------



## blain2

BATMAN said:


> We should treat all our guests with respect but at the same time *if *Pakistan care less US can't dent us more.
> LHM is willing to build F-16 in india plus other defence contractors are about to transfer sensitive technology to indians and we have a lolypop of F-16!
> We should also demand aircraft engine factory in Pakistan. Other wise US be denied Pakistan's military assistance.



Transferring technology and offsets really depends on how much you can absorb....Indian industry is ahead of Pakistan's but even the Indians cannot absorb all of what the west can offer (they usually hold back the good stuff and offer stuff that they can afford to let go of). Setting up manufacturing assembly capability for the F-16 in India is a losing proposition long term. It is a decade late and by the time it does happen, it would be even later. I doubt Indians would fall for it.

I stand by my point that PAF should absorb as many F-16s as she can. JF-17s, FC-20s are all in the near to mid term future. So I say get a hold of as many F-16s as possible and put them through MLU. That is a good way to go about enhancing the force. The Americans know that Pakistan is no longer desperate for the F-16s so they are relenting. Lets have some confidence in this plan. The ACM of the PAF in an interview himself said something to the effect that although we cannot guarantee against sanctions again, we wont be caught with our pants down. I.E. PAF has other decent alternates in the near future.

F-16s will be a very decent force multipliers in the sub-continental scenario. Regardless of all the claims by the IAF fans about the MKI and this or that, F-16 against the IAF will hold its own and will be a major threat for the other side to counter. A Pakistani specification MLU btw is not the same thing as the initial MLU that was performed on the European Participating Air Forces. Most of the avionics and radars are actually updated and very current for use in the sub-continental context. The AIDEW systems being talked about for use on the PAF F-16s are pretty amazing for both offensive and defensive operations. Overall the MLU package is a very nifty thing for PAF force enhancement in short term.


----------



## fatman17

blain2 said:


> Transferring technology and offsets really depends on how much you can absorb....Indian industry is ahead of Pakistan's but even the Indians cannot absorb all of what the west can offer (they usually hold back the good stuff and offer stuff that they can afford to let go of). Setting up manufacturing assembly capability for the F-16 in India is a losing proposition long term. It is a decade late and by the time it does happen, it would be even later. I doubt Indians would fall for it.
> 
> I stand by my point that PAF should absorb as many F-16s as she can. JF-17s, FC-20s are all in the near to mid term future. So I say get a hold of as many F-16s as possible and put them through MLU. That is a good way to go about enhancing the force. The Americans know that Pakistan is no longer desperate for the F-16s so they are relenting. Lets have some confidence in this plan. The ACM of the PAF in an interview himself said something to the effect that although we cannot guarantee against sanctions again, we wont be caught with our pants down. I.E. PAF has other decent alternates in the near future.
> 
> F-16s will be a very decent force multipliers in the sub-continental scenario. Regardless of all the claims by the IAF fans about the MKI and this or that, F-16 against the IAF will hold its own and will be a major threat for the other side to counter. A Pakistani specification MLU btw is not the same thing as the initial MLU that was performed on the European Participating Air Forces. Most of the avionics and radars are actually updated and very current for use in the sub-continental context. The AIDEW systems being talked about for use on the PAF F-16s are pretty amazing for both offensive and defensive operations. Overall the MLU package is a very nifty thing for PAF force enhancement in short term.



great post! absolutely agree!


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## araz

blain2 said:


> Transferring technology and offsets really depends on how much you can absorb....Indian industry is ahead of Pakistan's but even the Indians cannot absorb all of what the west can offer (they usually hold back the good stuff and offer stuff that they can afford to let go of). Setting up manufacturing assembly capability for the F-16 in India is a losing proposition long term. It is a decade late and by the time it does happen, it would be even later. I doubt Indians would fall for it.
> 
> I stand by my point that PAF should absorb as many F-16s as she can. JF-17s, FC-20s are all in the near to mid term future. So I say get a hold of as many F-16s as possible and put them through MLU. That is a good way to go about enhancing the force. The Americans know that Pakistan is no longer desperate for the F-16s so they are relenting. Lets have some confidence in this plan. The ACM of the PAF in an interview himself said something to the effect that although we cannot guarantee against sanctions again, we wont be caught with our pants down. I.E. PAF has other decent alternates in the near future.
> 
> F-16s will be a very decent force multipliers in the sub-continental scenario. Regardless of all the claims by the IAF fans about the MKI and this or that, F-16 against the IAF will hold its own and will be a major threat for the other side to counter. A Pakistani specification MLU btw is not the same thing as the initial MLU that was performed on the European Participating Air Forces. Most of the avionics and radars are actually updated and very current for use in the sub-continental context. The AIDEW systems being talked about for use on the PAF F-16s are pretty amazing for both offensive and defensive operations. Overall the MLU package is a very nifty thing for PAF force enhancement in short term.



Sir Blain
Thank you for a very informative reply. Iagree fully with you. However, on a hypothetical note what wouldthe PAF be able to absorb of the F16 technology were it to be offered?
Thanks in advance.
Araz


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## blain2

Bits and pieces of it I think. We could definitely do manufacturing of airframe, some sub-systems but radar, EW suite (we can do parts of it like RWRs etc. but that is not the entire thing) is another thing. We can learn from it and use it for other projects in the future maybe. 

I think the distinction is assembly vs. manufacturing. So like Turkey and TUSAS, Pakistani Aerospace Complex can also assemble the aircraft and develop some of the systems. India, if they were to receive a license would be doing the same as TUSAS.

Essentially you would be relying on PAC for everything. Which I think is a lot for even PAC to handle as there aren't too many partners on the private side to do this work. This handicaps Pakistan. Private firms should be partnering with the PAC on projects of this nature.


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## BATMAN

> PAF should absorb as many F-16s as she can


Correct but it is really hard to believe that this time US will honor it's contract, fully. Specially looking at trickeling pace of F-16 being released and MLU upgrades.
Why can't US release all F-16 in shorter time and don't you think the speed of MLU is also slow? considering our trust level.
What is preventing US from delivering block-52.


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## blain2

BATMAN said:


> Correct but it is really hard to believe that this time US will honor it's contract, fully. Specially looking at trickeling pace of F-16 being released and MLU upgrades.
> Why can't US release all F-16 in shorter time and don't you think the speed of MLU is also slow? considering our trust level.
> What is preventing US from delivering block-52.



Each MLU takes 5 months. Pakistan seems to be doing 2 at a time so you can see the delay. Secondly, its not easy for the USN to let go of the F-16s as they are being used (and not parked in AMARC). They are offering other airframes which PAF does not want. While the chance of US side not honoring its contract exists, there is more to lose for them in doing so than there is for Pakistan.

On the blk-52, there are other orders in the queue before Pakistan's. Those will be fulfilled then Pakistan's. LM told Pakistan that delivery will start in 2009. So we just have to wait.


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## BATMAN

Thanks, for your answer. 
I really hope that PAF getting complete deliveries of those awaited birds till the end of next years.


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## araz

blain2 said:


> Bits and pieces of it I think. We could definitely do manufacturing of airframe, some sub-systems but radar, EW suite (we can do parts of it like RWRs etc. but that is not the entire thing) is another thing. We can learn from it and use it for other projects in the future maybe.
> 
> I think the distinction is assembly vs. manufacturing. So like Turkey and TUSAS, Pakistani Aerospace Complex can also assemble the aircraft and develop some of the systems. India, if they were to receive a license would be doing the same as TUSAS.
> 
> Essentially you would be relying on PAC for everything. Which I think is a lot for even PAC to handle as there aren't too many partners on the private side to do this work. This handicaps Pakistan. Private firms should be partnering with the PAC on projects of this nature.



My only observation to your excellant post is that Private partners will come up if there is an opportunity to make money. Look at the UAV scene. There are quite a few companies manufacturing and providing systems. It is now upto PA/PAF to support and advise them and encourage them to produce better and better stuff. Similarly, if JF 17 comes to fruition there is no reason why a company could be given the opportunity to import composite technology and start manufacturing bits of thunder. i think it all depends on opportunities presented and nurturing providers. A lot of good will and honesty is required for this , which is a bug bear at times.
WaSalam
Araz


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## fatman17

_23rd march u were correct._

*AFM July is reporting....*

*Pakistan F-16s for MLU finally make it to the US:*

after being stranded at lejas in the azores for *four months*, the first two aircraft that will act as prototypes for the PAF Mid-Life Update (MLU) programme have finally made it to the USA. the aircraft F-16A 84713/USAF 81-0911 and F-16B 82603/USAF 81-0933 had initially been flown to tercia airport, lejas by PAF pilots and arrived there on January 11.
they were then to be flown by USAF pilots for the remainder of the journey to HILL AFB, UTAH where the MLU work will be undertaken. however, on inspection at lejas by US personnel, they were found to have some *time expired engine components *and the US aircrew refused to fly the aircraft until these had been replaced. even this work did not go entirely smoothly, as during a test flight on Feburary 11 the two-seat F-16B was forced to make an emergency landing back at lejas with engine problems.
reflecting the length of time they had remained on the ground at lejas, someone at the airfield with a sense of humour had applied LJ tail codes to both aircraft in late March. eventually the aircraft were ready for departure and they finally left lejas on May 14 still wearing their un-official LJ tail codes and supported by a USAF KC-135.


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## ejaz007

Here is a link to the video of the 4 F-16s recently handed over to PAF:

Aviation Video: Batch of Four F-16s joins Pakistan Air Force | Patrick's Aviation

Regards,


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## Keysersoze

Looks like Raytheon have a product that could prolong the life span of the F-16

Raytheon takes wraps off AESA radar

Raytheon Space and Airborne Systems (RSAS) launched a new active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar for fighter aircraft on 14 July at the Farnborough International Airshow.

Billed by the company as providing a &#8220;fifth-generation capability for fourth-generation fighters&#8221;, the radar is designed primarily for retrofit to a range of fighter aircraft including the Lockheed Martin F-16A/B/C/D and Boeing F/A-18A/A+/B/C/D types.


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## Owais

*Raytheon offers AESA radar for F-16*

July 14, 2008 (by Asif Shamim) - Raytheon Co. announced at the Farnborough airshow the news about there latest AESA radar known as the advanced combat radar (RACR, "racer").
The new radar is aimed at squarely at the retrofit market, for the F-16, F/A-18 and for installation in new-build fighters.

RACR draws heavily on Raytheon's previous experience in building AESA (active electronically scanned antenna) radars for the F-15 Eagle (APG-63(V)2/3/4) and F/A-18E/F Super Hornet (APG-79). The new radar uses technology & components from those existing programs.

Raytheon original proposed the RANGR (Raytheon advanced next-generation radar) for use with the F-16. This scalable radar has a downside, it requires its own power source and cooling system which would impact the existing airframe adding to the overall cost.

The RACR provided the same capability but its advantage is that it uses the existing power and cooling systems provisioned in the airframe making this radar more cost effective.

With the costs reduced it makes this model an attractive upgrade for air forces requiring newer radars, rather than forking out larger sums of money for new aircraft. It can be said that your giving a forth generation aircraft, fifth generation capabilities.

Additionally the RACR allows the aircraft to network in and share data over a high speed link. "The antenna becomes a node in the network. It can share data in a high-speed way, sending SAR maps in a few milliseconds. We have demonstrated a rate of 274 Mb per second. When you combine the antenna with an advanced RWR system like the ALR-69, you get a dramatic increase in capability", said Mike Henchey, Raytheon's director of strategy and business development, tactical airborne systems.

Raytheon is trying to break the hold in this market by its rival radar maker Northrop Grumman. Currently the RACR is fit checked in an F-16. In due course the company plan to fly a working example in a testbed aircraft.

Raytheon offers AESA radar for F-16


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## Myth_buster_1

AESA news does not make any deference to PAF F-16 deal... does it..


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## fatman17

23march said:


> AESA news does not make any deference to PAF F-16 deal... does it..



not for the foreseable future!


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## Proud to be Pakistani

blain2 said:


> Bits and pieces of it I think. We could definitely do manufacturing of airframe, some sub-systems but radar, EW suite (we can do parts of it like RWRs etc. but that is not the entire thing) is another thing. We can learn from it and use it for other projects in the future maybe.
> 
> I think the distinction is assembly vs. manufacturing. So like Turkey and TUSAS, Pakistani Aerospace Complex can also assemble the aircraft and develop some of the systems. India, if they were to receive a license would be doing the same as TUSAS.
> 
> Essentially you would be relying on PAC for everything. Which I think is a lot for even PAC to handle as there aren't too many partners on the private side to do this work. This handicaps Pakistan. Private firms should be partnering with the PAC on projects of this nature.



Right on the Spot!

Without Private Sector Involvement Not much Self Reliance in Aircraft Industry can be ACHIEVED!


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## Myth_buster_1

Found this F-16 MLU detailed manual!!!

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## parvez

Thanks a lot, nice one


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## IceCold

Though i kinda know the answer to this one but can't help my curiosity, is it in some manner possible for the PAF to acquire these for their F-16s either on or off the radar?


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## ejaz007

*Four more F-16s to join PAF soon *
Thursday, July 17, 2008
By Hanif Khalid

ISLAMABAD: Four more F-16 fighter aircraft will join the Pakistan Air Force on July 28, 2008. For this purpose, a ceremony for handing over of the planes to the Pakistan Air Force will be held at the PAF Base Mushaf on Saturday.

The four F-16 planes, which are going to be handed over to Pakistan in the last week of the current month, have been upgraded and modified to the extent that they will perform just like new F-16s. 

Last month, the Deputy Chief of Air Staff (Operations), Air Marshal Rao Qamar Suleiman, had received four Fighting Falcons from Lt Gen Gary L North, Commander 9th Air Force, and the USAF Central Command while four were received last year. These refurbished F-16s have the same operational capability as of those already possessed by the PAF and will significantly augment its combat capability. 

Meanwhile, state-of-the-art JF-17 Thunder fighter aircraft will be inducted as regular squadron of the Pakistan Air Force by the end of the current year. The small batch production of the JF-17 Thunder multi-role aircraft is in progress both in China and the Kamra Aeronautical Complex. Pakistan Air Force is in the process of completing the testing and evaluation of aircraft jointly produced by Pakistan and China. After completion of the evaluation, the new aircraft will be certified by international monitors to become operational in the air forces of the world.

Serial production of the JF-17 Thunder will also start in Pakistan soon. In the first phase 40%, in the second 60%, in the third phase 80% and in the last phase 100% JF-17 Thunder warplanes will be built at the Kamra Aeronautical Complex. Chief of the Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Tanveer Mehmood, is personally supervising the task of inducting new platforms in the PAF.

Four more F-16s to join PAF soon


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## fatman17

ejaz007 said:


> *Four more F-16s to join PAF soon *
> Thursday, July 17, 2008
> By Hanif Khalid
> 
> ISLAMABAD: Four more F-16 fighter aircraft will join the Pakistan Air Force on July 28, 2008. For this purpose, a ceremony for handing over of the planes to the Pakistan Air Force will be held at the PAF Base Mushaf on Saturday.
> 
> The four F-16 planes, which are going to be handed over to Pakistan in the last week of the current month, have been upgraded and modified to the extent that they will perform just like new F-16s.
> 
> Last month, the Deputy Chief of Air Staff (Operations), Air Marshal Rao Qamar Suleiman, had received four Fighting Falcons from Lt Gen Gary L North, Commander 9th Air Force, and the USAF Central Command while four were received last year. These refurbished F-16s have the same operational capability as of those already possessed by the PAF and will significantly augment its combat capability.
> 
> *Meanwhile, state-of-the-art JF-17 Thunder fighter aircraft will be inducted as regular squadron of the Pakistan Air Force by the end of the current year. The small batch production of the JF-17 Thunder multi-role aircraft is in progress both in China and the Kamra Aeronautical Complex. Pakistan Air Force is in the process of completing the testing and evaluation of aircraft jointly produced by Pakistan and China. After completion of the evaluation, the new aircraft will be certified by international monitors to become operational in the air forces of the world.
> 
> Serial production of the JF-17 Thunder will also start in Pakistan soon. In the first phase 40%, in the second 60%, in the third phase 80% and in the last phase 100% JF-17 Thunder warplanes will be built at the Kamra Aeronautical Complex. Chief of the Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Tanveer Mehmood, is personally supervising the task of inducting new platforms in the PAF*.
> 
> Four more F-16s to join PAF soon



good news on the F-16 side but i am not sure i completely agree with the writer on the JF-17 news.


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## fatman17

F-16 Fighting Falcon, F16, or Viper?

F-16 Featured Articles By Stefaan Vanhastel

Introduction

Ever wondered about the origin of the name "F-16 Fighting Falcon"? Or is it F-16 Viper? And what is wrong with F16? This article provides a short overview of the official designation and names for the F-16 Fighting Falcon, and some of the commonly used nicknames. 
F-16 Fighting Falcon, not F16 Fighting Falcon
The US Tri-Service Designation System for aircraft defines a standard notation for aircraft models. In its basic form, it consists of: 
a capital letter denoting the basic mission (e.g. 'F' for fighter, 'A' for attack) 
a mandatory dash '-' 
the design number (e.g. 14, 15, 16, 117, 130) 
According to this standard, F-16 is the only correct designation for the Fighting Falcon. Unfortunately, it is not uncommon for (non-aviation) publications to incorrectly use F16 Fighting Falcon or even f16 Fighting Falcon.

The name "Fighting Falcon"

USAF F-16A block 10 #79-0290 at the Naming Ceremony at Hill AFB, Utah wearing a large 'Fighting Falcon' badge behind the cockpit. The U.S. Air Force officially named the F-16 "Fighting Falcon" on July 21st, 1980, during a ceremony at Hill AFB in Utah (the home of the first F-16 unit). At the ceremony F-16A #79-0290 sported a special logo painted by Salt Lake City artists Matt and Mark Waki. 
Four years earlier, in 1976, the Department of the Air Force had organized a "Name-the-Plane Contest" for the F-16 at MacDill AFB in Florida. The winning entry was submitted by TSgt. Joseph A. Kurdell, the Photo Sensor Shop Supervisor for the 1st TFW A&E sqn.

On May 11th, 1976, TSgt. Kurdell received an official letter from the Department of the Air Force, congratulating him for submitting the prize-winning entry in the "Name-the-Plane Contest", winning him a free dinner at the MacDill NCO Mess.

TSgt. Joseph Kurdell explains where he got the inspiration for the name: 

"Prior to being stationed at MacDill AFB, Tampa, Florida and after a short tour in Korea, I was teaching at the Photographic Engineering School at Lowery Air Force Base in Colorado. 

Being in the vicinity of the Air Force Academy, my family and I used to visit there quite often especially during their football seasons. As you probably know the Falcon (the bird species) is the school mascot, so this is where I got the idea from when given the opportunity to name an aircraft. " 

The name "Fighting Falcon" also helped distinguish the F-16 from the "Falcon" series of business jets from French manufacturer Dassault.

General Dynamics F-16 became Lockheed Martin F-16
In the early 90's the Lockheed Company acquired the Fort Worth Division of the General Dynamics Corporation, thus the right to produce and sell the F-16 Fighting Falcon.

Lockheed then merged with Martin Marietta in the middle 90's to make Lockheed Martin, or Lockheed Martin Tactical Aircraft Systems (a.k.a. LMTAS). So that's why the General Dynamics F-16 became the Lockheed Martin F-16 or LMTAS F-16. Nowadays it's simply referred to as LM (Lockheed-Martin).

Viper: the unofficial nickname
The F-16 is often referred to as the "Viper", a nickname especially popular with people involved with the F-16. Before "Fighting Falcon" was selected as official name, pilots at Hill AFB, the first F-16 base, came up with a number of proposals, including "Viper". Lt. Col. Pat "Gums" McAdoo, USAF Ret., one of the first F-16 pilots at Hill AFB, recalls the origin of the name "F-16 Viper": 

At end of runway, the F-16 did resemble a cobra or something as it approached you. However, I think Northrop had already taken that name for the YF-17. 

We all voted, and Viper came in really high. Seems there was a series on TV that had 'colonial Vipers' flying off of Battlestar Galactica (a term later used for the Eagle). 

In any case, the Generals didn't want a plane 'named after some snake'! 

Falcon was a good name, and it fit in with the motif that the Eagle had created. Sort of a little brother, but still a 'Bird of Prey'. In fact, GD had a great promo out in late 70's called "Bird of Prey", and it used the Falcon as the real world model. 


Even when F-16 Fighting Falcon became the official name, Viper stuck around and became the unofficial nickname for the F-16. The name "Viper" is even officially used for the Joe Bill Dreyden "Semper Viper" award, which is awarded for excellent airmanship by F-16 pilots.

Official International names
Although "Fighting Falcon" has been adopted as the official name for the F-16 by many international customers, some airforces have indigenous names for (specific variants of) the F-16: 
Netz: or 'Hawk' - used by the Israeli Air Force for its F-16A/B aircraft. 
Barak: or 'Lightning' - used by the Israeli Air Force for its F-16C/D (block 30 & 40) aircraft. 
Sufa: or 'Storm' - used by the Israeli Air Force for its F-16I aircraft. 
KF-16: Designation used by the RoKAF to denote the South Korean produced F-16s. Note that this designation does not follow the US Tri-Service designation system. The 'K' simply stands for Korea in this particular case. 
Jastrzab: or 'Hawk' - used by the Polish Air Force for its F-16C/D block 52 aircraft. 
Other nicknames
Of course the F-16 is also known by a variety of other, less commonly used, nicknames: 
Electric Jet: Obvious nickname for the first fly-by-wire aircraft. 
Lawn Dart: Caused by a higher number of mishaps experienced in the early years. 
Midnight Falcon: "Marketing" name used by General Dynamics/Lockheed Martin for the F-16C to highlight its day/night all-weather capabilities. 
Desert Falcon: "Marketing" name used by General Dynamics/Lockheed Martin for the F-16 block 60. 
Sweet sixteen: No explanation needed. 

F-16.net :: The Ultimate F-16 Reference

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## Cheetah786

Handing Ceremony : 


ISLAMABAD: Four more F-16 fighter aircraft will join the Pakistan Air Force on July 28, 2008. For this purpose, a ceremony for handing over of the planes to the Pakistan Air Force will be held at the PAF Base Mushaf on Saturday.





The four F-16 planes, which are going to be handed over to Pakistan in the last week of the current month, have been upgraded and modified to the extent that they will perform just like new F-16s. 
Last month, the Deputy Chief of Air Staff (Operations), Air Marshal Rao Qamar Suleiman, had received four Fighting Falcons from Lt Gen Gary L North, Commander 9th Air Force, and the USAF Central Command while four were received last year. These refurbished F-16s have the same operational capability as of those already possessed by the PAF and will significantly augment its combat capability.

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## blain2

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php...01&c=EUR&s=TOP
*Lockheed Welcomes Retrofit Radars for F-16s*


by tom kington
Published: 15 Jul 13:21 EDT (17:21 GMT)FARNBOROUGH, England - As the world's air forces continue to fly thousands of F-16s 30 years after the launch of the aircraft, an official at manufacturer Lockheed Martin has welcomed the unveiling this year of two active electronically scanned array (AESA) radars for retrofitting in the fighter.
"Anything that adds value is a great thing," said John Larson, F-16 vice president at Lockheed. "We would love to see both of them become options," he added.

Larson said that F-16s as old as Block 25 aircraft, albeit after a midlife upgrade, would likely be able to be retrofitted with AESA radar.
Larson was speaking at the Farnborough Airshow a day after Raytheon launched its Raytheon Advanced Combat Radar (RACR). In February, Northrop Grumman showed its Scalable Agile Beam Radar (SABR). Both are designed to be fitted into F-16s by air forces that might have sought to buy new fighters in order to obtain AESA radar, which is faster and more capable than mechanically scanned radar.
Apart from retrofitting F-16s, *Larson did not rule out the possibility of customers buying new F-16s being able to choose one of the two radars*, "although we need to see where future developments end up," he added.
Currently, only the United Arab Emirates has purchased F-16s with AESA radar onboard, the APG-80. Larson said that the APG-80 had also been proposed for India, should it buy the aircraft.
Otherwise, customers who have recently ordered the aircraft, or are now taking delivery, have all ordered the mechanically scanned APG-68(V)9. They include Greece, Israel, Morocco, Pakistan, Poland and Turkey.
*Northrop Grumman has said that its new AESA retrofit radar will be cheaper and less capable than the APG-80, but the same price as the APG-68(v)9*.
__________________

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## IceCold

blain2 said:


> http://www.defensenews.com/story.php...01&c=EUR&s=TOP
> *Lockheed Welcomes Retrofit Radars for F-16s*
> 
> 
> by tom kington
> Published: 15 Jul 13:21 EDT (17:21 GMT)FARNBOROUGH, England - As the world's air forces continue to fly thousands of F-16s 30 years after the launch of the aircraft, an official at manufacturer Lockheed Martin has welcomed the unveiling this year of two active electronically scanned array (AESA) radars for retrofitting in the fighter.
> "Anything that adds value is a great thing," said John Larson, F-16 vice president at Lockheed. "We would love to see both of them become options," he added.
> 
> Larson said that F-16s as old as Block 25 aircraft, albeit after a midlife upgrade, would likely be able to be retrofitted with AESA radar.
> Larson was speaking at the Farnborough Airshow a day after Raytheon launched its Raytheon Advanced Combat Radar (RACR). In February, Northrop Grumman showed its Scalable Agile Beam Radar (SABR). Both are designed to be fitted into F-16s by air forces that might have sought to buy new fighters in order to obtain AESA radar, which is faster and more capable than mechanically scanned radar.
> Apart from retrofitting F-16s, *Larson did not rule out the possibility of customers buying new F-16s being able to choose one of the two radars*, "although we need to see where future developments end up," he added.
> Currently, only the United Arab Emirates has purchased F-16s with AESA radar onboard, the APG-80. Larson said that the APG-80 had also been proposed for India, should it buy the aircraft.
> Otherwise, customers who have recently ordered the aircraft, or are now taking delivery, have all ordered the mechanically scanned APG-68(V)9. They include Greece, Israel, Morocco, Pakistan, Poland and Turkey.
> *Northrop Grumman has said that its new AESA retrofit radar will be cheaper and less capable than the APG-80, but the same price as the APG-68(v)9*.
> __________________



Hmmm the radar is less capable then the APG-80, but certainly an AESA radar. It would be an interesting development If we go for this radar instead of APG-68 v9. I am amazed why hasn't Israel and Turkey opted for the APG-80 since they would no problem in acquiring them unlike us.


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## araz

IceCold said:


> Hmmm the radar is less capable then the APG-80, but certainly an AESA radar. It would be an interesting development If we go for this radar instead of APG-68 v9. I am amazed why hasn't Israel and Turkey opted for the APG-80 since they would no problem in acquiring them unlike us.



Ice cold.
As far as I remember, Israel wanted to install its own radar and avionics on their Soufas. they were not allowed to by the Americans. The other thing to note is that UAE has intelectual rights to APG 80 as they paid for the research that went into it. They would therefore have a say in who gets it and who does not. On record Pakistan AF decision was not to incorporate APG80 into block 52s because it would have required more research and money which PAF would have had to pay. PAF has(as per Pshamim of Pakdef.info fame) asked LM to consider incorporating AESA into the next batch which we may buy from them. I dont have any news of what has come out of it since then.
Araz

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## BATMAN

araz said:


> On record Pakistan AF decision was not to incorporate APG80 into block 52s because it would have required more research and money which PAF would have had to pay. PAF has(as per Pshamim of Pakdef.info fame) asked LM to consider incorporating AESA into the next batch which we may buy from them. I dont have any news of what has come out of it since then.
> Araz


Current Lockheed Martin F-16 Versions Are Most Advanced Multi-Role 
Fighters Available TodayWEBWIRE &#8211; Wednesday, July 16, 2008
FARNBOROUGH, England.- The two versions of the F-16 being delivered to customers today are the most advanced multi-role fighter aircraft types currently available on the international market and are building on the F-16&#8217;s reputation for effectiveness and value, the Lockheed Martin [NYSE: LMT] vice president for the program said today. 

&#8220;The F-16 continues as a modern, highly capable, affordable and supportable fighter. The program is healthy and full of activity, with firm production through 2012 and a strong likelihood of new orders that will extend the line for several more years,&#8221; said John Larson, vice president for F-16 programs, in remarks to reporters at the Farnborough Air Show. 

Larson said there are current backorders for about 98 F-16 aircraft, plus a strong possibility Lockheed Martin will gain 200-400 further orders during the next few years. 

Recent F-16 program milestones have included the 4,400th F-16 delivered for Poland and a recent contract for 24 new Advanced Block 52 F-16s for Morocco, the newest member of the F-16 family. 

In addition to the F-16 production programs, Lockheed Martin continues to develop and integrate advanced technologies to upgrade programs for existing F-16 aircraft to ensure interoperability with the world&#8217;s only 5th Generation Fighters, the F-22 Raptor and F-35 Lightning II. 

&#8220;This integration of advanced technologies for fielded and new aircraft provides an opportunity for F-16 operators to benefit from the latest developments in technology and capabilities for fighter aircraft,&#8221; Larson said. &#8220;This technology will provide a natural bridge from 4th Generation of fighters to the 5th Generation.&#8221; 

*Aircraft now being produced for Poland, Israel, Greece and Pakistan are in the Advanced Block 50/52 F-16C/D configuration*. The United Arab Emirates was the launch customer for the Block 60 F-16 version, which has the type designation &#8211; F-16E/F &#8211; and is the most sophisticated configuration of the F-16 produced to date. 

*Larson said both new versions have the latest technologies and capabilities &#8211; including AESA radar and around-the-clock, all-weather, standoff, autonomous, air intercept and precision strike. These aircraft have the latest in avionics, sensors and weapons, plus user-friendly cockpits and integrated systems that provide pilots with high situation awareness*. 

Both types have features that extend mission range, persistence and payload &#8211; including internal electronic countermeasures equipment and optional conformal fuel tanks. The aft cockpit of the two-place versions of both types serves either as a weapon system operator station or an instructor pilot station. 

&#8220;Lockheed Martin and the U.S. Air Force are totally committed to modification and sustainment of the worldwide F-16 fleet. We recognize that we have a serious obligation to support our customers in their missions, and we also recognize fleet sustainment as a growing business opportunity,&#8221; Larson said.

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## blain2

IceCold said:


> Hmmm the radar is less capable then the APG-80, but certainly an AESA radar. It would be an interesting development If we go for this radar instead of APG-68 v9. I am amazed why hasn't Israel and Turkey opted for the APG-80 since they would no problem in acquiring them unlike us.



Cost may be one factor and secondly, LM may not be willing to pay for the cost of integrating APG-80 in a blk52 aircraft. Nobody wants to pay the cost of integration.

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## Owais

can we get this Radar in our new Block 52+ instead of APG 68V(9)??


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## fatman17

Owais said:


> can we get this Radar in our new Block 52+ instead of APG 68V(9)??



at this point in time i doubt very much as "fissures" are developing in the military-to-military relationship.


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## Myth_buster_1




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## IceCold

araz said:


> Ice cold.
> As far as I remember, Israel wanted to install its own radar and avionics on their Soufas. they were not allowed to by the Americans. *The other thing to note is that UAE has intelectual rights to APG 80 as they paid for the research that went into it. They would therefore have a say in who gets it and who does not*. On record Pakistan AF decision was not to incorporate APG80 into block 52s because it would have required more research and money which PAF would have had to pay. PAF has(as per Pshamim of Pakdef.info fame) asked LM to consider incorporating AESA into the next batch which we may buy from them. I dont have any news of what has come out of it since then.
> Araz



So sir will the UAE have a say or were they ever contacted when the radar was offered to India?


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## blain2

Owais said:


> can we get this Radar in our new Block 52+ instead of APG 68V(9)??



The way I see it, APG-68V(9) will esnure that PAF gets the aircraft as per schedule. The AESA radars provide a migration/upgrade path for the same aircraft and other older blocks in the PAF service if the PAF decides that all F-16s should be upgraded to an AESA capability. BTW, I believe PAF and LM had discussions around the same AESA radars right around the time of the placement of the PAF blk 52 order.

The radars are very new and require some time to clear the kinks before some Airforce adopts it (nobody wants to be the first ones running into all of the bugs)


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## IceCold

blain2 said:


> The way I see it, APG-68V(9) will esnure that PAF gets the aircraft as per schedule. The AESA radars provide a migration/upgrade path for the same aircraft and other older blocks in the PAF service if the PAF decides that all F-16s should be upgraded to an AESA capability. BTW, I believe PAF and LM had discussions around the same AESA radars right around the time of the placement of the PAF blk 52 order.
> 
> The radars are very new and require some time to clear the kinks before some Airforce adopts it (nobody wants to be the first ones running into all of the bugs)



Sir APG-68 V(9) is also comparatively new so assuming that an AESA radar can have bugs in it, the same could be applied to this new version of APG as well.


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## Myth_buster_1

IceCold said:


> Sir APG-68 V(9) is also comparatively new so assuming that an AESA radar can have bugs in it, the same could be applied to this new version of APG as well.



APG-68 V-9 are operational and a proven radar in IDAF F-16I, Greek new F-16, Chile, and i think Poland as well.. As Mike Gibbons said "the program manager for EA-18G" AESA radars are not full spectrum one, it lacks electronic attack capability! the new cheap F-16 AESA radar is probably going to be a crap one..


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## fatman17

US DELIVERS EDA JETS TO PAKISTAN 


The United States Air Force (USAF) successfully delivered four excess defense article (EDA) F-16B aircraft to the Pakistan Air Force at Mushaf Air Base in Pakistan on June 28, 2008. Five USAF pilots ferried the aircraft from Hill Air Force Base. 

This transfer represents another significant milestone in the U.S. security assistance relationship with Pakistan, which resumed subsequent to September 11. *Since then, the United States has delivered a va&#173;riety of equipment to Pakistan, including refurbished C-130E transports, refurbished P-3C surveillance aircraft, refur&#173;bished Cobra helicopters, new Bell 412 helicopters and a num&#173;ber of Harpoon missiles, Harris radios, AN/TPS-77 surveillance radars, night vision goggles and AIM-9M Sidewinder missiles*. 

*The centerpiece of the secu&#173;rity assistance relationship is, however, the F-16 program. For Pakistan, the F-16 is a symbol of national pride and although the program began in the 1980s, F-16s continue to hold a special place in the U.S. - ****&#173;stani security relationship. The four EDA aircraft are part of a larger package of 14 aircraft. With the most recent delivery, the USAF has transferred eight aircraft to Pakistan. Another four EDA F-16 aircraft are scheduled to arrive in Pakistan on 28 July 2008. The final two aircraft are part of the Pakistan Mid-Life Update program and will arrive in Pakistan in De&#173;cember 2011. The entire F-16 program for Pakistan includes the purchase of eighteen F-16C/D Block 52 aircraft, MLU for 46 aircraft, and a munitions package that includes AM&#173;RAAM, JDAM, and Enhanced Paveway guidance kits. 

As with any EDA program of this complexity, em&#173;ployees at DSCA contributed directly to the success of this program. DSCA country program personnel developed ****&#173;stan&#8217;s request when the Pakistan Air Force first broached the topic. Other personnel worked through the Congressional notification process by explaining the effort to the Oversight Committees on the Hill. All invested the time and energy necessary to allow this program to succeed*. 

The senior U.S. representative at the ceremony was Mr. Peter Bodde, who is the Deputy Chief of Mission at the Ameri&#173;can Embassy in Islamabad. Air Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman, the Deputy Chief of the Air Staff (Operations), represented the Pakistan Air Force. Bodde acknowledged the hard work of the USAF that allowed the delivery to succeed and both he and Air Marshall Rao Qamar commented on the significance of this delivery to the ongoing security relationship between the United States and Pakistan. DSCA's Country Program Director for Pakistan attended the delivery ceremony. 

DSCA Home


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## Myth_buster_1

Role	Multi-mode radar
Band	X-band (6.2 to 10.9 GHz)
MTBF	400 hours
Search range (air-to-air, fighter target)	265 km	160 nm


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## IceCold

23march said:


> APG-68 V-9 are operational and a proven radar in IDAF F-16I, Greek new F-16, Chile, and i think Poland as well.. As Mike Gibbons said "the program manager for EA-18G" AESA radars are not full spectrum one, it lacks electronic attack capability! the new cheap F-16 AESA radar is probably going to be a crap one..



If what you are saying is true then the world would not be turning towards an AESA radar.


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## BATMAN

IceCold said:


> If what you are saying is true then the world would not be turning towards an AESA radar.



IceCold, I think he is referring to the new radar 'RACR' in comparison to APG80.

@ 23March, As I understands the new radar is not cheap infect the cost of its integration is less (owing to its design) as compare to APG80 which will require design modifications either in radar or F-16 or both, and it is common sense that design modification for one customer can raise the perunit cost and since the contract is already closed with certain technical specifications in such senario LM will be paying the costs to meet the technical specifications and PAF is content as long AESA is integrated.

I would not doubt on the performance of the radar without any established facts.
It seems new RADAR is custom built for the F-16 retrofit market, which is huge.

There is some confusion over the number of PAF MLUs are they 46 or 30?


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## Keysersoze

Well I believe there were 60 MLU kits purchased


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## blain2

Technically speaking, Congress was notified of plans to sell 60 MLU kits. The actual purchase may be for the same number or less. A lot of the discussions here and elsewhere are based on the DSCA disclosures which only state what the Congress has been notified to permit. By the time the DSCA disclosures come about, the approval is already in place. So now PAF has to get enough decent air frames to put them through the MLU with the USC allowing up to 60 MLU kits. In the end, PAF may go for all 60 kits (meaning that it has 60 F-16s available) or less.


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## fatman17

blain2 said:


> Technically speaking, Congress was notified of plans to sell 60 MLU kits. The actual purchase may be for the same number or less. A lot of the discussions here and elsewhere are based on the DSCA disclosures which only state what the Congress has been notified to permit. By the time the DSCA disclosures come about, the approval is already in place. *So now PAF has to get enough decent air frames to put them through the MLU with the USC allowing up to 60 MLU kits.* In the end, PAF may go for all 60 kits (meaning that it has 60 F-16s available) or less.



i agree - all 60 MLU kits will be used.


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## fatman17

Plan Would Use Antiterror Aid on Pakistani Jets 

By ERIC SCHMITT 
Published: July 24, 2008 

WASHINGTON &#8212; The Bush administration plans to shift nearly $230 million in aid to Pakistan from counterterrorism programs to upgrading that country&#8217;s aging F-16 attack planes, which Pakistan prizes more for their contribution to its military rivalry with India than for fighting insurgents along its Afghan border. 

Some members of Congress have greeted the proposal with dismay and anger, and may block the move. Lawmakers and their aides say that F-16s do not help the counterterrorism campaign and defy the administration&#8217;s urgings that Pakistan increase pressure on fighters of Al Qaeda and the Taliban in its tribal areas. 

The timing of the action caught lawmakers off guard, prompting some of them to suspect that the deal was meant to curry favor with the new Pakistani prime minister, Yousaf Raza Gilani, who will meet with President Bush in Washington next week, and to ease tensions over the 11 members of the Pakistani paramilitary forces killed in an American airstrike along the Afghan border last month. 

The financing for the F-16s would represent more than two-thirds of the $300 million that Pakistan will receive this year in American military financing for equipment and training. 

Last year, Congress specified that those funds be used for law enforcement or counterterrorism. Pakistan&#8217;s military has rarely used its current fleet of F-16s, which were built in the 1980s, for close-air support of counterterrorism missions, largely because the risks of civilian casualties would inflame anti-government sentiments in the Federally Administered Tribal Areas. 

State Department officials say the upgrades would greatly enhance the F-16s&#8217; ability to strike insurgents accurately, while reducing the risk to civilians. The officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity because Congress was weighing the plan, said the timing was driven by deadlines of the American contractor, Lockheed Martin. 

Having the United States pay for the upgrades instead of Pakistan would also free up cash that Pakistan&#8217;s government could use to help offset rising fuel and food costs, which have contributed to an economic crisis there, the State Department officials said. 

Under the original plan sent to Congress in April, the administration intended to use up to $226.5 million of the aid to refurbish two of Pakistan&#8217;s P-3 maritime patrol planes, buy it new airfield navigation aids and overhaul its troubled fleet of Cobra attack helicopters. The State Department notified Congress last week that the administration had changed its mind and would apply the funds to the F-16s. 

Lawmakers immediately bridled at the shift, questioning whether the counterterrorism money could be spent more effectively. &#8220;We need to know if this is the best way to help Pakistan combat Al Qaeda and the Taliban,&#8221; Senator Patrick J. Leahy, a Vermont Democrat who heads the appropriations subcommittee on State Department and foreign operations, said in a statement. 

Representative Nita M. Lowey, a New York Democrat who heads the House appropriations subcommittee on foreign operations, said in a statement, &#8220;It is incumbent on the State Department and Pakistan to demonstrate clearly how these F-16s would be used to fight Al Qaeda and the Taliban in order to get Congressional support.&#8221; 

In a two-page notification to Congress, the State Department said that upgrading the avionics, targeting and radar systems of Pakistan&#8217;s older F-16s would &#8220;increase the survivability of the aircraft in a hostile environment&#8221; and make the &#8220;F-16s a more valuable counterterrorism asset that operates safely during day and night operations.&#8221; The notification said the modernized systems would also increase the accuracy of the F-16s&#8217; support of Pakistani ground troops, lessening the risks of civilian casualties. 

Many Congressional officials remain unconvinced. &#8220;Using F-16s this way is like hitting a fly with a sledgehammer,&#8221; said one senior Senate Democratic aide, who spoke on condition of anonymity because of the current negotiations. It remains unclear whether any lawmaker will block or postpone the financing, and risk harming relations with Pakistan any further. 

Even if approved, the upgraded F-16s would not be available until 2011, said one House aide who had been briefed on the issue, and who spoke on condition of anonymity, raising the question whether the funds could be spent on counterterrorism equipment that could be employed more quickly. 

Pakistan agreed to buy about 70 F-16s in the 1980s, and about 40 were delivered before Congress cut off all aid and military sales in 1990, citing Pakistan&#8217;s secret development of nuclear weapons. 

A new deal was struck after the Sept. 11 attacks to allow Pakistan to buy newer models, in part to reward Pakistan&#8217;s cooperation in fighting terrorism. In 2006, Pakistan was a major recipient of American arms sales, including the $1.4 billion purchase of up to 36 new F-16C/D fighter aircraft and $640 million in missiles and bombs. The deal included a package for $891 million in upgrades for Pakistan&#8217;s older F-16s. 

At that time, the United States agreed to use $108 million of its annual security aid to Pakistan to retrofit the older F-16s with equipment to make them comparable to the newer models that will be delivered in the next several years. But the administration promised Congress that the Pakistani government would pay for the rest of the upgrades with its own funds. With Pakistan now facing economic hardships, top Pakistani leaders appealed to senior State Department officials to help defray the costs of the ongoing upgrades. 

The debate over the F-16 financing comes at a time when Congress has grown increasingly frustrated with the administration&#8217;s Pakistan policy, arguing it has been weighted too heavily on security assistance. The United States has given more than $10 billion in military aid to Pakistan since the Sept. 11 attacks, when President Pervez Musharraf agreed to become an ally in the campaign against terrorism. Of that amount, $5.5 billion was specifically intended to reimburse the counterinsurgency efforts by the Pakistani Army, but Congressional auditors have said that Pakistan did not spend much of that money on counterinsurgency. 

Senior administration officials, including top military officers, are also voicing increasing exasperation with Pakistan&#8217;s efforts to combat militants in the mountainous region along the border with Afghanistan. &#8220;We need Pakistan to put more pressure on that border,&#8221; Adm. Mike Mullen, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said on &#8220;The NewsHour With Jim Lehrer&#8221; on PBS on Tuesday. 

source: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/24/world ... ref=slogin

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## Proud to be Pakistani

This New AESA for F-16 shall become hot cake for all the F-16 Users... Increases the punch in F-16 by many folds!


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## ejaz007

*Part of US aid to be used for F-16 up gradation *
Updated at: 1210 PST, Thursday, July 24, 2008 

NEW YORK: The Bush administration plans to shift nearly $230 million in aid to Pakistan from counterterrorism programs to upgrading that country's aging F-16 fighter planes.

According to a report appearing in the New York Times, the State Department officials insist the plan will greatly enhance the F-16s ability to strike insurgents in FATA and tribal areas.

The officials said Congress is weighing the plan. The aid was sanctioned for the up gradation of two P3 petrol planes and Cobra helicopters.

Part of US aid to be used for F-16 up gradation


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## Neo

*U.S. wants counterterror funds for Pakistan F-16s​*
By Anne Gearan, AP Diplomatic Writer 
Thu Jul 24, 2008

WASHINGTON - *The State Department wants to use about two-thirds of its proposed military equipment aid for Pakistan's anti-terrorism programs to help the key U.S. ally upgrade its aging fleet of U.S.-made F-16 fighter planes.*

The planes traditionally have not been used in anti-terrorism operations, and Pakistan sees the planes as a chit in its arms race against rival India. *Congress must approve the switch*, which was requested days before Pakistan's new prime minister, Yousuf Raza Gilani, is due to meet President Bush at the White House.

*The Bush administration is feeling its way in its dealings with Pakistan's new leaders, who are friendly to the U.S. but far less closely allied than the formerly supreme leader, President Pervez Musharraf.* Musharraf retains his post but with less authority. The prime minister's government has struck proposed partnerships with tribal leaders in the volatile terror-breeding ground along the Afghan border that make U.S. officials nervous.

The request to Congress late last week would allow the key U.S. ally to purchase equipment to upgrade existing planes so that they have similar capabilities to equipment the Bush administration is already selling to Pakistan. *The $226 million would come from an allotment already approved for other Pakistan anti-terror operations.*

*The previous request would have upgraded P3-C aircraft, which often are used in surveillance operations, and modernize AH-IF Cobra helicopters. *The helicopter work still would be done using different funding, a State Department official said. The official spoke on condition of anonymity because discussions with Congress are still preliminary.

Switching the money to fix up F-16s would represent a change in the purpose for more than two-thirds of the $300 million that Pakistan will receive this year in U.S. military underwriting for Pakistan's equipment and training. Congress has required that the training and equipment money be spent for law enforcement or to fight terrorism.

F-16s are something of a badge of honor for Pakistan, and a sore point in the history of the U.S. relations with the Muslim nation.

The Bush administration approved the sale of 18 new jets last year. The package included an option for Pakistan to order more jets and to get used aircraft refurbished.

Pakistan signed a deal with Washington to buy the F-16s in the late 1980s, but the agreement was scrapped in the 1990s when the U.S. government imposed sanctions on Islamabad over its nuclear weapons program.

Although Washington lifted the sanctions because of Islamabad's support for the U.S. war on terror, the sale of the F-16s had remained on hold and some lawmakers have continued to criticize the deal, arguing the planes are more likely to be used in a war with India than against terrorists.

U.S. assistance and other payments to Pakistan have totaled $9.6 billion in the six budget years since the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on the United States, according to the State Department.

The largest payout each year is for what the Bush administration calls "reimbursements" for Pakistan's help in fighting terrorism. Under that program, Pakistan submits claims &#8212; such as its costs for providing observations posts along the Afghan border or its costs for taking part in joint operations with the U.S. against al-Qaida.

The reimbursements amount to some $80 million a month or nearly $1 billion a year.

On top of those payments, the U.S. also gives Pakistan direct aid for humanitarian programs, economic development, military needs and so on &#8212; well over $700 million in each of the last two years.

US wants to shift $226 million on Pakistan money - Yahoo! News


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## Neo

A F-16 aircraft from the Pakistan Air Force fires an air-to-air live missile at its target during the Missile Firing Camp 2007 exercise at the PAF firing range near Karachi April 16, 2007.​


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## araz

Neo said:


> A F-16 aircraft from the Pakistan Air Force fires an air-to-air live missile at its target during the Missile Firing Camp 2007 exercise at the PAF firing range near Karachi April 16, 2007.​



Neo
Any significance to this photograph. What kind of a missile are we looking at?
Araz


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## Neo

The picture is from a similar report as I posted above, I just wanted to share it so posted it later.


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## Myth_buster_1

araz said:


> Neo
> Any significance to this photograph. What kind of a missile are we looking at?
> Araz




aim-9 sidewinder...

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## blain2

Can either be a 9P or 9L. 9Ms were not delivered when this firing camp took place.


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## ejaz007

*U.S. to Help Upgrade Pakistan Fighter Fleet*
By OLIVIER KNOX, AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE 
Published: 24 Jul 14:18 EDT (18:18 GMT)

WASHINGTON - The White House confirmed on July 24 that it planned to shift $230 million from counter-terrorism programs to aid for Pakistan to upgrade Islamabad's aging F-16 fighter jets.

The news came as U.S. President George W. Bush prepared to host Pakistan Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani on July 28 for talks set to focus on cooperation to fight Taliban and al-Qaeda extremists and Pakistan-Afghanistan tensions.

White House spokeswoman Dana Perino said a New York Times article detailing the shift was "accurate" but rejected criticisms that Pakistan chiefly views the jets through the lens of its nuclear rivalry with neighbor India.

"The F-16s that they have are used in counterterrorism operations. We made them available to the Pakistanis and they need to be maintained," Perino told reporters.

Pakistan's new government "is facing a lot of pressure from a severe fiscal situation" stemming partly from soaring food and energy costs, and "they need assistance from the United States," the spokeswoman said.

But the Times reported that some U.S. lawmakers have greeted the proposed shift with anger, saying that Pakistan does not use its F-16s in support of the campaign against fighters in its remote tribal areas out of a fear that civilian casualties could fuel support for the extremists.

Asked what the U.S. would get in return for the move, Perino replied: "The F-16s are used in their counter-terrorism operations, so we get support in our national security efforts."

The package for the fighters would run about two-thirds of the $300 million that Pakistan will get this year in U.S. aid for military equipment and training, the Times said.

In 2007, U.S. lawmakers specified that the monies should to go to law enforcement or counter-terrorism.

The daily cited unnamed US State Department officials as saying that the upgrades would sharpen the fighters' ability to carry out accurate air strikes, reducing civilian casualties.

The move came with Gilani expected to face searching questions about his fledgling government's commitment to battling Islamist extremists, particularly in the remote tribal areas along Afghanistan's border, where terrorist mastermind Osama bin Laden is thought to be hiding.

Bush said earlier this month that he was "troubled" by the movement of extremists from Pakistan to Afghanistan and would discuss the threat with Gilani when he visits.

U.S. military commanders have reported a 40 percent rise in militant attacks on parts of eastern Afghanistan since Pakistan's new government launched peace talks with Taliban rebels in the tribal belt.

Legislation was introduced in the U.S. Congress on July 15 proposing non-military aid to Pakistan be tripled to $7.5 billion over five years, but linking security aid to counter-terrorism performance.

Washington has already pledged $750 million in development aid to the tribal areas over the next five years, in addition to the $10 billion in military aid it has channeled to Islamabad since 2001.

U.S. to Help Upgrade Pakistan Fighter Fleet - Defense News


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## fatman17

blain2 said:


> Can either be a 9P or 9L. 9Ms were not delivered when this firing camp took place.



these missiles are launched sans the war-head? right!


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## fatman17

^^^there are 3 repeat posts in this thread. we need to be careful here!


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## batmannow

*US Wants to Upgrade Pakistans F-16s*
_*July 24, 2008
Associated Press *_

*WASHINGTON - The State Department wants to use about two-thirds of its proposed military equipment aid for Pakistan's anti-terrorism programs to help the key U.S. ally upgrade its aging fleet of U.S.-made F-16 fighter planes. *_The planes traditionally have not been used in anti-terrorism operations, and Pakistan sees the planes as a chit in its arms race against rival India. Congress must approve the switch, which was requested days before Pakistan's new prime minister, Yousuf Raza Gilani, is due to meet President Bush at the White House. _
_The Bush administration is feeling its way in its dealings with Pakistan's new leaders, who are friendly to the U.S. but far less closely allied than the formerly supreme leader, President Pervez Musharraf. Musharraf retains his post but with less authority. The prime minister's government has struck proposed partnerships with tribal leaders in the volatile terror-breeding ground along the Afghan border that make U.S. officials nervous. __The request to Congress late last week would allow the key U.S. ally to purchase equipment to upgrade existing planes so that they have similar capabilities to equipment the Bush administration is already selling to Pakistan. The $226 million would come from an allotment already approved for other Pakistan anti-terror operations. _
_*The previous request would have upgraded P3-C aircraft, which often are used in surveillance operations, and modernize AH-IF Cobra helicopters. The helicopter work still would be done using different funding, a State Department official said. The official spoke on condition of anonymity because discussions with Congress are still preliminary*_. 

_Switching the money to fix up F-16s would represent a change in the purpose for more than two-thirds of the $300 million that Pakistan will receive this year in U.S. military underwriting for Pakistan's equipment and training. Congress has required that the training and equipment money be spent for law enforcement or to fight terrorism. _*F-16s are something of a badge of honor for Pakistan, and a sore point in the history of the U.S. relations with the Muslim nation. *_*The Bush administration approved the sale of 18 new jets last year. The package included an option for Pakistan to order more jets and to get used aircraft refurbished. *_
_Pakistan signed a deal with Washington to buy the F-16s in the late 1980s, but the agreement was scrapped in the 1990s when the U.S. government imposed sanctions on Islamabad over its nuclear weapons program. _
_Although Washington lifted the sanctions because of Islamabad's support for the U.S. war on terror, the sale of the F-16s had remained on hold and some lawmakers have continued to criticize the deal, arguing the planes are more likely to be used in a war with India than against terrorists._ 

_U.S. assistance and other payments to Pakistan have totaled $9.6 billion in the six budget years since the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on the United States, according to the State Department. _
*The largest payout each year is for what the Bush administration calls "reimbursements" for Pakistan's help in fighting terrorism. Under that program, Pakistan submits claims - such as its costs for providing observations posts along the Afghan border or its costs for taking part in joint operations with the U.S. against al-Qaida. *
*The reimbursements amount to some $80 million a month or nearly $1 billion a year. *
_On top of those payments, the U.S. also gives Pakistan direct aid for humanitarian programs, economic development, military needs and so on - well over $700 million in each of the last two years. _© Copyright 2008 *Associated Press. All rights reserved.*


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## EagleEyes

*US plan to upgrade Pakistan&#8217;s F-16s worries India*

* Indian official says Islamabad could use F-16s against New Delhi

NEW DELHI: The Indian defence establishment is &#8220;concerned&#8221; by the United States&#8217; decision to divert $230 million in aid to Pakistan from counter-terrorism programmes to upgrading its F-16 fighter jets.

&#8220;Acquisition of new airborne capabilities by Pakistan is definitely a matter of concern for India since it&#8217;s always primarily directed at us. If the US thinks Pakistan will only use its upgraded F-16s for counter-terrorism operations, it is sadly mistaken,&#8221; Times of India quoted a top Indian defence official as saying on condition of anonymity.

India&#8217;s Western Air Command (WAC) chief Air Marshal PK Barbora, in turn, said, &#8220;Every country does what it thinks is needed for its defence requirements. The question is what is going to be given to Pakistan with the F-16 upgrade programme.&#8221;

The Bush administration says Pakistan&#8217;s F-16s will be upgraded with advanced targeting, precision-guided munitions and radar systems to improve their capability to attack terrorist targets along the volatile Afghan border.

This upgrade programme of 30 of the original 40 F-16s acquired by Pakistan between 1983 and 1987 comes after Washington also agreed to sell Islamabad 18 to 25 new F-16 variants armed with a wide array of advanced missiles.

&#8220;Moreover, Pakistan will begin inducting the first lot of the planned 250 JF-17 &#8216;Thunder&#8217; fighters from China by the end of 2008. We obviously have to keep a close watch on this. Fighters are weapons of war, not counter-terrorism,&#8221; said another Indian officer.

But even as the Indian Air Force (IAF) grapples with a steady downturn in the number of fighter squadrons - down to just 32 from the &#8216;sanctioned strength&#8217; of 39.5 - it is &#8220;not too worried&#8221; at the developments. &#8220;We have our own plans of new acquisitions and upgrades of existing fleets to boost our defence preparedness,&#8221; said Barbora, whose command is primarily responsible for guarding the skies on the entire western front.

Sources said plans for faster induction of 230 Sukhoi-30MKIs contracted from Russia in deals worth around $8.5 billion are currently under way. They said for instance, Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd was working towards completing its licensed production of 140 Sukhois by 2013-14 instead of 2017-18 as previously planned.

Sources said India planned to upgrade 125 MiG-21 &#8216;Bisons&#8217; and around 100 MiG-27s and Jaguars with new weapons and avionics packages. They said India had also signed a $964 million deal with Russia to refit its 63 MiG-29s, adding that a similar deal was in the pipeline with France for IAF&#8217;s 51 Mirage-2000s. online

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan


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## Neo

WebMaster said:


> NEW DELHI: The Indian defence establishment is &#8220;concerned&#8221; by the United States&#8217; decision to divert $230 million in aid to Pakistan from counter-terrorism programmes to upgrading its F-16 fighter jets.


Damned if we fight WoT damned if we don't...somebody should make up his mind! 



> &#8220;Acquisition of new airborne capabilities by Pakistan is definitely a matter of concern for India since it&#8217;s always primarily directed at us. If the US thinks Pakistan will only use its upgraded F-16s for counter-terrorism operations, it is sadly mistaken,&#8221; Times of India quoted a top Indian defence official as saying on condition of anonymity.


PAF has operated F-16's for more than quarter of a century and now we're going to use it against New Delhi? Even if we do, with an airforce three times bigger and better equipped than PAF what does she have to fear?
Isn't MKI devine like we've been educated so many times? 



> India&#8217;s Western Air Command (WAC) chief Air Marshal PK Barbora, in turn, said, &#8220;Every country does what it thinks is needed for its defence requirements. The question is what is going to be given to Pakistan with the F-16 upgrade programme.&#8221;


Everything that we 'think is needed' genius! 



> The Bush administration says Pakistan&#8217;s F-16s will be upgraded with advanced targeting, precision-guided munitions and radar systems to improve their capability to attack terrorist targets along the volatile Afghan border.
> 
> This upgrade programme of 30 of the original 40 F-16s acquired by Pakistan between 1983 and 1987 comes after Washington also agreed to sell Islamabad 18 to 25 new F-16 variants armed with a wide array of advanced missiles.


Forgot to mention HMS and possibly AESA. 



> &#8220;Moreover, Pakistan will begin inducting the first lot of the planned 250 JF-17 &#8216;Thunder&#8217; fighters from China by the end of 2008. We obviously have to keep a close watch on this. *Fighters are weapons of war, not counter-terrorism,&#8221;* said another Indian officer.


So India is preparing for war with aquisition of 230 Flankers and another 126 MRCA's? 



> But even as the Indian Air Force (IAF) grapples with a steady downturn in the number of fighter squadrons - down to just 32 from the &#8216;sanctioned strength&#8217; of 39.5 - it is &#8220;*not too worried*&#8221; at the developments. &#8220;*We have our own plans of new acquisitions and upgrades of existing fleets to boost our defence preparedness*,&#8221; said Barbora, whose command is primarily responsible for guarding the skies on the entire western front.


So whats that fuzz about? Ole bad habbit of playing cry baby? 



> Sources said plans for faster induction of 230 Sukhoi-30MKIs contracted from Russia in deals worth around $8.5 billion are currently under way. They said for instance, Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd was working towards completing its licensed production of 140 Sukhois by 2013-14 instead of 2017-18 as previously planned.
> 
> Sources said India planned to upgrade 125 MiG-21 &#8216;Bisons&#8217; and around 100 MiG-27s and Jaguars with new weapons and avionics packages. They said India had also signed a $964 million deal with Russia to refit its 63 MiG-29s, adding that a similar deal was in the pipeline with France for IAF&#8217;s 51 Mirage-2000s. online
> 
> Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan



So how's this going to affect regional balance which's already in favor of India?

I'd say India should quit to act like a cry baby and have little more faith in her own defence machinery. You can't stop us from buying from Internatioal market anymore...get over it!

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## Myth_buster_1

CrybabyNEWS

Washington, July 26: The Americans have put a price of $305 million on Pakistan for withdrawing its objections to the smooth passage of the India-specific safeguards agreement by the board of governors of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) on August 1.

US President George W. Bush will gently nudge Pakistans Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani at the White House on Monday not to be intransigent at the IAEA on the Indo-US nuclear deal.

But after feeding him lunch, Bush will send Gilani to Vice-President Dick Cheney, the administrations bouncer, who will tell the visiting Prime Minister unequivocally that the US does not appreciate Islamabad standing in the way of the operationalisation of the nuclear deal with India at the IAEA.

Bush will use kid gloves in dealing with Gilani, but Cheney, who has established a reputation for his tough ways and getting things done, will be as plain and rough with Gilani as he needs to be, according to sources which are familiar with the deliberations of a new co-ordinating committee which has been created within the Bush administration to fast track the nuclear deal.

By the time Gilani gets to see Cheney in the afternoon, the White House would have conveyed Gilanis reaction to Bushs kid glove treatment in the morning to the Vice-Presidents office. Cheney will then know how much his screws on the Pakistan Prime Minister have to be tightened.

In the run up to Gilanis visit, the Bush administration has decided to transfer about $230 million that it has already allotted for counter-terrorism projects in Pakistan to its militarys pet project of upgrading its F-16 aircraft that are not used against terrorists but can target India in the event of a war.

The US state departments acting deputy spokesperson, Gonzalo Gallegos, justified the transfer on the ground that the Pakistani government came to us, asked us if we could assist them, and we decided that this would be a good option for them. It would help to relieve the government, allow them to use that amount of funds for different projects of their own while providing an update that had already been  that we had already approved.

These funds represent about two-thirds of the entire money that Pakistan will receive this year in US military financing for equipment and training.

Gallegos said: Basically, what we did was we shifted funds from one set of anti-terrorism projects, one set of airframes, to a different set.

But that is unlikely to sit well with the Democratic presidential aspirant Barack Obama, who will meet Gilani on Tuesday. Obama last fortnight outlined his skeleton plans for Pakistan if he is elected President and those plans focus on social development and democracy instead of beefing up Islamabads offensive capabilities against India.

In addition, anticipating the UPA governments forward movement on the nuclear deal, the US recently offered Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suites worth $75 million for enhancing the capabilities of the existing F-16 fleet of the Pakistan Air Force.

The new total of $305 million for Pakistani F-16s, the militarys prestige toys, is being described in private conversations on Capitol Hill as a part of the Bush administrations bribe for the army general headquarters in Rawalpindi to toe the White House timetable on the nuclear deal with India.

In addition, less than four weeks ago, the US delivered four new F-16B aircraft to the Pakistan Air Force at Mushaf Air Base. The Pentagon pointed out in a press release that the F-16s represent a symbol of national pride for Pakistan.

The US ambassador to India, David Mulford, who attended a meeting of the administrations newly created co-ordination committee for the deal on Monday, significantly told reporters afterwards that Pakistans objections in Vienna represent an issue that has to be addressed and that we will talk to Pakistan.

He added, ominously, that Washington hopes that they will see things in the right light and be co-operative.


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## JK!

was said:


> stupid indian media:



Comments like this = Keysersoze  newbie

Anyways regarding F16s what follow up orders might happen?


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## blain2

fatman17 said:


> these missiles are launched sans the war-head? right!



No sir. This is the real thing during the firepower display. If I recall correctly, during this particular firing camp, every fighter aircraft in the PAF inventory carried out live firing of in service AAMs.


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## IceCold

Have personally serious doubts that the PM will stand up to the occasion and will remain firm on the issue. If he can unilaterally decrease the defense budget, what else can we expect of him, surely he will have 100 excuses up his sleeves to convince our uneducated bunch of morons that what he did was in the favor of the country and we want good relations with that country.


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## ejaz007

*US delivers four F-16s to Pakistan*
Staff Report

ISLAMABAD: United States Central Command Acting Commander Lt Gen Martin E Dempsey on Monday handed over four F-16 jet aircraft to Pakistan Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed in a ceremony at the Pakistan Air Force Base Mushaf, Sargodha.

With the handing over of the four jets, the delivery of 14 upgraded F-16 aircraft has been completed. Earlier the US had agreed to give Pakistan these aircrafts under the Foreign Military Sales Programme, which was singed in 2005. 

The air chief said the Pakistan Air Force would remain vigilant for the defence of the nation by ensuring the highest level of combat readiness. 

The US embassy said in a statement that the US government provided the aircraft to Pakistan at no cost except for transportation expenses. 

The four aircraft presented on Monday are valued at approximately $6.4 million each, it said. 

The PAF said the newly delivered aircraft would significantly augment its operational and combat capabilities.

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

This means PAF presently has 46 F-16's, roughly 4 squadrons.

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## EagleEyes

6.4 million each. Very cheap i say.


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## fatman17

ejaz007 said:


> [This means PAF presently has 46 F-16's, roughly 4 squadrons.




PAF squadron strength is usually 16-18 a/c per.
so 2.5 sqdns of F-16s.


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## fatman17

WebMaster said:


> 6.4 million each. Very cheap i say.



this is misleading. i am not sure in what context these figs are being quoted. F-16 MLU will cost at least 25m / a/c.


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## IceCold

*Another batch of four F-16s joins PAF*​
Updated at: 2011 PST, Monday, July 28, 2008
Another batch of four F-16s joins PAF SARGODHA: A simple but impressive ceremony for handing over of four, F-16 aircraft to Pakistan Air Force was held at PAF Base Mushaf, Sargodha. Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal, Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed received the fighting Falcons from Lieutenant General Martin E Dempsey, acting Commander US CENTCOM.

Addressing the ceremony, Tanvir said that the batch of aircraft which arrived today have the same operational capability as of the already possessed F-16 aircraft by the PAF and will significantly augment its combat capability in defending the aerial frontiers of Pakistan.

A contingent of high-ranking officials from Air Forces of Pakistan and United States were also present on the occasion.


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## fatman17

The first *two* F-16s were delivered in December 2005,* two* more in July 2007, *two* in February 2008 and *four *in June 2008, and the latest delivery of *four* on 28th July-08.


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## BATMAN

vbJgmsZsF3g[/media] - Four more F-16s join Pakistan Air Force - July 28, 2008


WebMaster said:


> 6.4 million each. Very cheap i say.


I highly doubt this figure just because news does not mention its source and I highly doubt that reporter is a defence analyst.
Although we have bought decomissioned fighters from USAF and price is expected to be less and it can be any thing based on avionics and radar but again those were ordered or contracted in 80's and delivered today.

In my opinion US should pay rent instead for using our F-16.

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## araz

fatman17 said:


> this is misleading. i am not sure in what context these figs are being quoted. F-16 MLU will cost at least 25m / a/c.



Ithink these are old Block 15OCUs for PAF that were embargoed. They have been refurbished but not MLUed. They will require MLU
Ho-e this explains the situation.As per HKhan of PAkdef.info these are all Bs
Regards
Araz

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## fatman17

araz said:


> Ithink these are old Block 15OCUs for PAF that were embargoed. They have been refurbished but not MLUed. They will require MLU
> Ho-e this explains the situation.*As per HKhan of PAkdef.info these are all Bs*
> Regards
> Araz



this is correct as it tallies with the DSCA - EDA Bulletin board. this also raises a interesting question.

of the original 40 F-16s procured in the mid-80s, 28 were As and 12 Bs. i have no idea how many As and Bs out of the 8 a/c that have been lost due to attrition. lets assume 4 each.

that leaves 24 F-16As and 8 F-16Bs. now with this delivery of 14 a/c, 9 are Bs and 5 are As. giving us:

29 F-16As and 15 F-16Bs. an inordinate amount of two-seat trainers. this only proves to me that the PAF intends to get additional EDA F-16s from the US and therefore ensuring that it has enough pilots converted to this type well in advance of their arrival.

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## araz

fatman17 said:


> this is correct as it tallies with the DSCA - EDA Bulletin board. this also raises a interesting question.
> 
> of the original 40 F-16s procured in the mid-80s, 28 were As and 12 Bs. i have no idea how many As and Bs out of the 8 a/c that have been lost due to attrition. lets assume 4 each.
> 
> that leaves 24 F-16As and 8 F-16Bs. now with this delivery of 14 a/c, 9 are Bs and 5 are As. giving us:
> 
> 29 F-16As and 15 F-16Bs. an inordinate amount of two-seat trainers. this only proves to me that the PAF intends to get additional EDA F-16s from the US and therefore ensuring that it has enough pilots converted to this type well in advance of their arrival.



fatman
That is a good thought. It certainly points to PAF desire to have more F16s in the fleet.I think in all honesty it is a hedged bet. They will see how the environment is post 2011. If it is conducive they will go for more otherwise, PAF will move on to J10/Thunder.
Now what we need to think of is how will the numbers match up in relation to aircrafts, ie JF17 and J10.
Given a scenario where Uncle Sam supplies us with another 20-30 EDAs and another 18-30 order is utilized by PAf for 52+es,what will we cut down,ie J10 or Thunder? I dont think the total Number of planes will increase as the capabilities of the fleet would go up remarkably. So how do the numbers match up then?

WaSaLam
Araz

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## Myth_buster_1

WebMaster said:


> 6.4 million each. Very cheap i say.



according to original plan of 60 MLU, the cost is high as 1.3 billion dollars..
so thats roughly around 22 million dollars each and i think including spares..


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## fatman17

araz said:


> fatman
> That is a good thought. It certainly points to PAF desire to have more F16s in the fleet.I think in all honesty it is a hedged bet. They will see how the environment is post 2011. If it is conducive they will go for more otherwise, PAF will move on to J10/Thunder.
> Now what we need to think of is how will the numbers match up in relation to aircrafts, ie JF17 and J10.
> Given a scenario where Uncle Sam supplies us with another 20-30 EDAs and another 18-30 order is utilized by PAf for 52+es,what will we cut down,ie J10 or Thunder? I dont think the total Number of planes will increase as the capabilities of the fleet would go up remarkably. So how do the numbers match up then?
> 
> WaSaLam
> Araz



my gut feel based on how the PAF operates, the airforce would like to achieve their original objective under the peace gate program which would mean:

110 - F-16A/B/C/Ds.

150 - JF-17s under the 1st contract.

40 - F-20s (no final plan here except the approval by the govt. which
means nothing) *or*

40 - J-11s (???)

this comes to 300 front-line a/c which in the opinion of the PAF is not sufficient to counter the 42 sqdn IAF.

in comes the 2nd contract for 100 JF-17s.(advanced)

PAF can manage a fleet of 400 a/c (22 sqdns) based on their planned infrastructure and personnel deployment.

the mirages and F-7s will serve in the PAF until the above objectives are achieved. time-line is roughly 2015-16.

this frankly is a best-case scenario. i dont see induction of any other western platform in the PAF due to political / funds issues.

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## Myth_buster_1

With the new transition of democracy and hope for soon as possible stability in pakistan i think the original plan for Gripen may still exist. PAF needs a quality edge over indian 126 MRCA! J-11 is not a matured platform yet but PLAAF future 2015-20 Flanker fleet is a newly upgraded fleet with su-33 and su-35 features.. J-11 could play potent role in PAF or PN naval role..


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## nitesh

23march said:


> With the new transition of democracy and hope for soon as possible stability in pakistan i think the original plan for Gripen may still exist. PAF needs a quality edge over indian 126 MRCA! J-11 is not a matured platform yet but PLAAF future 2015-20 Flanker fleet is a newly upgraded fleet with su-33 and su-35 features.. J-11 could play potent role in PAF or PN naval role..



I am not getting what you are trying to say, PAF need quality edge over Indian MRCA so how does Gripen fits in? J-11 is not a matured platform but it can play a very potent role, how? PLAAF future flanker fleet is going to be upgraded with SU33 and SU35 features which features you are referring here? Any deal has been signed?


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## blain2

fatman17 said:


> this is misleading. i am not sure in what context these figs are being quoted. F-16 MLU will cost at least 25m / a/c.



Sir these aircraft are not MLU'd as of yet. They have only gone through the Falcon-UP (STAR) structural upgrades. So the cost is correct.

This is going exactly as planned. Back in June of 2006, PAF has asked and had gotten approved for sale modification/overhaul of 14 F100-PW-220E engines, 14 Falcon UP/STAR F-16 structural upgrade kits. Two years later, we have exactly the number (14) that has gone through this structural and engine upgrade in the US. The remaining Pakistani F-16s, 32 received the Falcon UP/STAR upgrade in Pakistan at the PAC. This was one of things that the US allowed after the Brown amendment. So all of the F-16 engines and airframes flying with the PAF are in a very good shape and are ready for the MLU work.

For reference, see this:
http://www.dsca.mil/PressReleases/36-b/2006/Pakistan_06-11.pdf

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## blain2

fatman17 said:


> 29 F-16As and 15 F-16Bs. an inordinate amount of two-seat trainers. this only proves to me that the PAF intends to get additional EDA F-16s from the US and therefore ensuring that it has enough pilots converted to this type well in advance of their arrival.



One more possibility is that PAF is envisioning using the F-16s in deep interdiction/Strike roles as its primary role and leave air defence/superiority to others such as JF-17s as they come on line (does not mean that F-16s wont be used in air-defence roles, however more focus can be given to the interdiction/strike roles). The fact that PAF is set to receive some pretty amazing ECM/EW suites for these aircraft is another indication of the intended strike role of the F-16s in the future for the PAF. Strike missions can be conducted better with a pilot focusing on flying the aircraft in dense air defense and jamming environments while the Weapons Systems Officer in the back seat can focus on delivering ordnance on target and ensuring the survival of the aircraft by using the ECMs. So the addition of 2 seaters can be seen in that light as well.

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## blain2

Guys take a break. No more of this back and forth.


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## prithvi

WASHINGTON: The US Congress moved Tuesday to suspend a bid by President George W Bush's administration to shift millions of dollars in aid to Pakistan from counter-terrorism programmes to upgrading Islamabad's F-16 fighter jets.

"We have requested a hold on the administration's planned reprogramming pending additional information," said a joint statement by Democratic lawmakers Howard Berman and Nita Lowey, who head key panels in the House of Representatives.

"We are concerned that the administration's proposal to use military assistance to pay for the F-16 upgrades will divert funds from more effective counterterrorism tools like helicopters, TOW missiles, and night-vision goggles," said Berman, chairman of the House foreign affairs committee, and Lowey, chairwoman of the appropriations subcommittee on foreign programmes.

The White House said last week that it wanted to shift 230 million dollars in aid to Pakistan from counter-terrorism programmes to upgrading Pakistan's aging F-16 fighter jets.

The move, it said, was aimed at easing fiscal pressures faced by the Pakistani government stemming partly from soaring food and energy costs.

US lawmakers were reportedly angered by the move. They felt that Pakistan did not use its F-16s in support of the campaign against fighters in its remote tribal areas out of a fear that civilian casualties could fuel support for extremists.

US President George W Bush held talks with Pakistan Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani on Monday focused on cooperation to fight Taliban and al-Qaida extremists and easing Pakistan-Afghanistan tensions.

Gilani, whose new government has been facing intense US pressure to crack down on Pakistan-based militants, told reporters after the meeting that Pakistan was committed to fighting extremists.

The package for the F-16 fighters would run about two-thirds of the 300 million dollars that Pakistan will get this year in US aid for military equipment and training, the Times said.

The 2008 fiscal year state and foreign operations bill that passed Congress last December specifically required that military aid to Pakistan be used for counter-terrorism and law enforcement activities directed against al-Qaida and the Taliban, according to lawmakers Berman and Lowey.

The hold requested by the legislature would "provide time for Congress to make a more considered judgment in consultation with the administration and the government of Pakistan," their statement said.

Requests for a hold by lawmakers are usually abided by the administration, congressional aides said.

Berman and Lowey also said that they were proposing that Congress provide 200 million dollars in economic assistance to Islamabad to relieve some of Pakistan's budgetary constraints.

"This will help Pakistan set its own spending priorities while preserving US military aid for its intended purpose -- counterterrorism activities against al-Qaida and the Taliban."

"We are committed to helping Pakistan's new democratic government address the current economic crisis, brought on by rising food and fuel prices, which has impacted its ability to fund its F-16 upgrades," the lawmakers said.


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## Owais

23march said:


> With the new transition of democracy and hope for soon as possible stability in pakistan i think the original plan for Gripen may still exist. PAF needs a quality edge over indian 126 MRCA! J-11 is not a matured platform yet but PLAAF future 2015-20 Flanker fleet is a newly upgraded fleet with su-33 and su-35 features.. J-11 could play potent role in PAF or PN naval role..



considering current pathetic performance of democracy, we are moving from bad to worse!. so I don't see PAF is going for Heavy J11 or costly Grippen in future also, PAF already reduced number of new F-16 from 36 to 18 so there will be only 78 F-16s(60MLU+18new) by 2012. only best thing they can do is to increase number of FC20 from 36 to 72.


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## Myth_buster_1

Owais said:


> considering current pathetic performance of democracy, we are moving from bad to worse!. so I don't see PAF is going for Heavy J11 or costly Grippen in future also, PAF already reduced number of new F-16 from 36 to 18 so there will be only 78 F-16s(60MLU+18new) by 2012. only best thing they can do is to increase number of FC20 from 36 to 72.



yes i agree with you... democracy is the craziest thing for pakistan but the west is only interested in democracy no matter in what form. all we know for sure that PAF has done deal of JF-17 F-16s and FC-20.. we never know what come next after 2012?


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## x_man

fatman17 said:


> this frankly is a best-case scenario. i dont see induction of any other western platform in the PAF due to political / funds issues.



Sir I concur...The way things are moving in relations with USA and improved aviation industry in China, we will ultimately become all Chinese ( except F-16s).....

IMO , we are probably over with French once existing Mirage fleet is retired, No chance for any British or any other American fighter and after many trials and flights of Grippen , probably its also out.... That leaves us with Chinese and Russians....At the moment , we can also put the Russians aside, then the only one we have left are Chinese...But the situation isnt that gloomy either, Chinese have already and are coming up with nice array of fighters that are not only cost effective but operationally feasible too for us....

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## muse

Gloomy? far from it, it is, if it should come to pass, a most hopeful development.

Arms are a important component of international relations - thus far, in the name of pragmatism and expediency, Pakistani diplomacy towards the West can reasonably be considered a failure and while it is true that there are indications that the West may offer a different posture after the departure of Mr. Bush, it is also reasonable to conclude that given past behaviour this different posture will qualify as difference without distinction.

Whatever Pakistan produces or can or may produce in cooperation with China is going to become more and more cost effective for Pakistan and the quality of the product similarly improving. Why fret about English or French or Swede or U.S.? 

The purpose of pakistani forces is to deter and to deny and this capablity is backed by a nuclear arsenal and increasingly complex capablity.

Let us nurture relations with those who seek the same with us. Let us begin the process of shedding ourselves of those relations in which our concerns are restricted to the role others have assigned for us in their plans.

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## fatman17

prithvi said:


> WASHINGTON: The US Congress moved Tuesday to suspend a bid by President George W Bush's administration to shift millions of dollars in aid to Pakistan from counter-terrorism programmes to upgrading Islamabad's F-16 fighter jets.
> 
> "We have requested a hold on the administration's planned reprogramming pending additional information," said a joint statement by Democratic lawmakers Howard Berman and Nita Lowey, who head key panels in the House of Representatives.
> 
> "We are concerned that the administration's proposal to use military assistance to pay for the F-16 upgrades will divert funds from more effective counterterrorism tools like helicopters, TOW missiles, and night-vision goggles," said Berman, chairman of the House foreign affairs committee, and Lowey, chairwoman of the appropriations subcommittee on foreign programmes.
> 
> The White House said last week that it wanted to shift 230 million dollars in aid to Pakistan from counter-terrorism programmes to upgrading Pakistan's aging F-16 fighter jets.
> 
> The move, it said, was aimed at easing fiscal pressures faced by the Pakistani government stemming partly from soaring food and energy costs.
> 
> US lawmakers were reportedly angered by the move. They felt that Pakistan did not use its F-16s in support of the campaign against fighters in its remote tribal areas out of a fear that civilian casualties could fuel support for extremists.
> 
> US President George W Bush held talks with Pakistan Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani on Monday focused on cooperation to fight Taliban and al-Qaida extremists and easing Pakistan-Afghanistan tensions.
> 
> Gilani, whose new government has been facing intense US pressure to crack down on Pakistan-based militants, told reporters after the meeting that Pakistan was committed to fighting extremists.
> 
> The package for the F-16 fighters would run about two-thirds of the 300 million dollars that Pakistan will get this year in US aid for military equipment and training, the Times said.
> 
> The 2008 fiscal year state and foreign operations bill that passed Congress last December specifically required that military aid to Pakistan be used for counter-terrorism and law enforcement activities directed against al-Qaida and the Taliban, according to lawmakers Berman and Lowey.
> 
> The hold requested by the legislature would "provide time for Congress to make a more considered judgment in consultation with the administration and the government of Pakistan," their statement said.
> 
> Requests for a hold by lawmakers are usually abided by the administration, congressional aides said.
> 
> Berman and Lowey also said that they were proposing that Congress provide 200 million dollars in economic assistance to Islamabad to relieve some of Pakistan's budgetary constraints.
> 
> "This will help Pakistan set its own spending priorities while preserving US military aid for its intended purpose -- counterterrorism activities against al-Qaida and the Taliban."
> 
> "We are committed to helping Pakistan's new democratic government address the current economic crisis, brought on by rising food and fuel prices, which has impacted its ability to fund its F-16 upgrades," the lawmakers said.



i wouldnt read too much into this - either way we WIN. if this allocation is not used for F-16s, the heavens wont come down on us - we still get more Cobras, night-vision equipment and other CI stuff. US230m for counter-insurgency is a lot of money. we can get atleast another 40 upgraded Cobras.


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## araz

I would not worry too much. I think the congress might debate this and in the end decide ro go ahead with it. It is Pakistani request , they should comply with it.
Regards
Araz


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## ejaz007

Whether US provides money for economic relief, for providing more cobras and other equipment or upgrading F-16 its all welcome from Pakistan's point of view.

More cobras infact might be better as these can be used more effectively than F-16's.

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## EagleEyes

Dont be reading in too much of these spicy Indian news websites. The upgrading deal will go through.

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## Myth_buster_1

Just wondering how our F-16 Ds will look like

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## ejaz007

*US Admin will work to convince lawmakers on F-16 decision*

WASHINGTON: Defending the reallocation of anti-terrorism funds to upgrade Pakistans F-16 aircraft, George W Bushs administration has vowed to convince US lawmakers the move is sound.

*The State Department, commenting on suggestions by some lawmakers to hold off upgrades said, There is no need to change the decision at this point and the administration is moving forward with it, State Department spokesman Sean McCormack said on Thursday.* 

This was a considered decision. We think it was the right decision. This was an important priority of this incoming government that it had focused on this F-16 program, but is also committed, they say, to fighting terrorism.

And the argument made was that this mid-life upgrade could help them in the fight against terrorism in the Tribal Areas. 

The US has proposed reallocating about $230 million to upgrade jets purchased from the US in the 1980s. app

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan


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## fatman17

ASIA PACIFIC 

Date Posted: 31-Jul-2008 

Jane's Defence Weekly 

US delivers final F-16s to Pakistan under 2005 FMS deal

Trefor Moss JDW Asia-Pacific Editor - London

The United States has completed the delivery of 14 second-hand F-16s to Pakistan under a Foreign Military Sales deal signed in 2005. 

US Central Command Acting Commander Lieutenant General Martin Dempsey handed over the final four upgraded aircraft to Pakistan Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed in a ceremony on 28 July. 

The 14 F-16s, which were provided free of charge except for transportation costs, were delivered in five batches beginning in December 2005. 

The US embassy in Islamabad said in a statement that the aircraft were valued at USD6.4 million each.

Pakistan is also awaiting delivery of 12 new F-16C and six new F-16D aircraft from the US, while working with the US to upgrade its existing fleet of 34 F-16A/Bs. 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
&#169; 2008 Jane's Information Group

Jane's Login


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## JK!

Chile have recently been acquiring ex dutch air force F16s and given quite a few European nations operate the aircraft what possible country could Pakistan source F16s from?

I had read on pakistanidefence that 40 from Belgium were considered at one point.


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## fatman17

JK! said:


> Chile have recently been acquiring ex dutch air force F16s and given quite a few European nations operate the aircraft what possible country could Pakistan source F16s from?
> 
> *I had read on pakistanidefence that 40 from Belgium were considered at one point.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> this is correct but those airframes were too old plus US was not willing to allow tranfer at that time.

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## Muradk

fatman17 said:


> i wouldnt read too much into this - either way we WIN. if this allocation is not used for F-16s, the heavens wont come down on us - we still get more Cobras, night-vision equipment and other CI stuff. US230m for counter-insurgency is a lot of money. we can get atleast another 40 upgraded Cobras.



Fatman If I am nor wrong all our cobras has night vision capabilitis. This I am Talking about 2001 onwards plus a few upgrads on them.


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## JK!

fatman17 said:


> JK! said:
> 
> 
> 
> Chile have recently been acquiring ex dutch air force F16s and given quite a few European nations operate the aircraft what possible country could Pakistan source F16s from?
> 
> *I had read on pakistanidefence that 40 from Belgium were considered at one point.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> this is correct but those airframes were too old plus US was not willing to allow tranfer at that time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Any others aside from the Belgians worth considering?
Click to expand...


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## fatman17

JK! said:


> fatman17 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Any others aside from the Belgians worth considering?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> none as enough EDA stocks of de-commissioned F-16s are readily available directly from the USAF.
Click to expand...


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## fatman17

Muradk said:


> Fatman If I am nor wrong all our cobras has night vision capabilitis. This I am Talking about 2001 onwards plus a few upgrads on them.



yes sir - u r 100% correct - even the Bell pilots have night vision equipment.

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## Owais

JK! said:


> I had read on pakistanidefence that 40 from Belgium were considered at one point.



yes they were considered 2 years ago but that sale requires US approval and those airframes were not as good as these Ex PAF F-16s we are getting so there was no progress




> none as enough EDA stocks of de-commissioned F-16s are readily available directly from the USAF.



I heard that there are only 14 more F-16s available from US but they are currently in use of USN who have refused to transfer these jets to Pakistan

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## fatman17

Owais said:


> yes they were considered 2 years ago but that sale requires US approval and those airframes were not as good as these Ex PAF F-16s we are getting so there was no progress
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I heard that there are only 14 more F-16s available from US but they are currently in use of USN who have refused to transfer these jets to Pakistan



correct! thats why as a alternate solution USAF has offered F-16C/D block 30/40 EDA a/c to PAF as compensation. it will take 2 years for this delivery of 14 a/c after the necessary upgrades in the US (Hill AFB-Utah)


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## ejaz007

*Proposal to Reprogram Pakistani Military Aid into F-16s Generating Tension*
05-Aug-2008 17:50 EDT

On June 30/08, US GAO Criticizes CSF Aid to Pakistan discussed some of the tensions inherent in US aid to Pakistan, which has totaled several billion dollars since 2001. In addition to accounting and documentation issues, there have also been several instances in which the Pakistani militarys priorities and uses of its funds have diverged from the counter-terror focus intended by the US government. 

Pakistans current status as a country with a larger and more active insurgency than Iraqs has two seemingly paradoxical effects. On the one hand, it raises the stakes when Coalition Support Funding and other counter-terror aid is used for other military efforts or prestige projects instead. On the other hand, because the stakes are so high given Pakistans ownership of nuclear weapons, the USAs leverage for dealing with questionable appropriations is reduced to some extent. Aid to Pakistan has always been as much about keeping its military and government on side as it has been about dealing with the Al-Qaeda/Taliban networks that currently control significant sections of the country along the Afghan border.

In late July 2008, all of these tensions exploded into view, as Pakistan proposed to redirect 2/3 of its 2008 aid into modernizing its older F-16 fighter fleet to the same standard as the new F-16 Block 50/52 aircraft it is about to receive. The US State Department acquiesced; but Congress seems to be of a different mindset

Pakistan is already undertaking a $5.1 billion combined program to purchase new F-16s, and upgrade the 1980s-vintage F-16A/Bs it bought in the 1980s.

Under the proposal put forward by the US State Department, $226 million would be taken from an approved $300 million allotment for other Pakistan anti-terror operations. The move has reportedly been prompted by soaring food and energy costs, which are creating fiscal pressures on the government.

Earlier flagship projects under the US military aid program included modernization of Pakistans P-3 Orion aircraft, and upgrades to its AH-1 Cobra attack helicopters. P-3 maritime patrol are being used by the USA itself over Afghanistan, where its long loiter time and surveillance capabilities have proven to be very useful. Upgraded P-3s also have implications for the conventional balance of power in Pakistans section of the Indian Ocean, given their long-range anti-ship strike capabilities.

AFP quotes an anonymous State Department official as saying that the AH-1 upgrades will take place using different funding, though the GAOs recent report indicates that fleet maintenance may be a more productive use of the funds. P-3 Orion funding, on the other hand, appears to be a casualty of the proposed change.

In response, July 29/08 saw a pair of key legislators move to suspend the reprogramming, and offer an alternative. Democratic lawmakers Howard Berman [D-CA, Chair House Foreign Affairs Committee] and Nita Lowey [D-NY, Chair of State, Foreign Operations and Related Programs Appropriations Subcommittee], cited the FY 2008 fiscal year state and foreign operations bill, which specifically required that military aid to Pakistan be used for counterterrorism and law enforcement activities directed against al-Qaida and the Taliban.

While the situation in Pakistan is probably serious enough to warrant the use of air strikes against enemy strongholds, or in close-air support capacities, airpower is never a perfectly precise instrument. Its use has collateral effects on civilian support for the government that must be taken into account. The current civilian governments emphasis on continuing Musharrafs failed Waziristan accords strategy makes Pakistans F-16s a very unlikely counter-terror tool, unless the political situation shifts significantly.

*The Berman-Lowey hold in the US Congress is not binding, but such holds are traditionally respected. The request asks for ...time for Congress to make a more considered judgment in consultation with the administration and the government of Pakistan. *

Meanwhile, a counterproposal in Congress would add $200 million in economic assistance to Pakistan, which has received around $1.5 billion in economic assistance from the USA over the past 2 years. This would presumably allow the Pakistani government to cope with other fiscal pressures, while preserving the intended uses of the CSF funding.


Proposal to Reprogram Pakistani Military Aid into F-16s Generating Tension

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## HAIDER

Boeing in St Louis, MO received a $68.8 million indefinite-delivery/ indefinite-quantity, firm-fixed-price contract for Full Rate Production Lot 4 (FRP 4) Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS), produced by VSI. At this time, total funds have been obligated. Work will be complete December 2009.

The Headquarters Air Force Materiel Command at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, OH issued the contract (F33657-01-D-0026/Delivery Order 0058). The systems will be used on USAF F-15s and F-16s, MACH Brooks, the USN's F/A-18 platforms, and foreign military sales to Poland (F/16s), Belgium (F-16s), *Pakistan (F-16s)*, Greece (F-16s), Royal Australian Air Force (F/A-18s), Switzerland (F/A-18s), and Canada (F/A-18s).
Google Image Result for http://airbornecombatengineer.typepad.com/photos/aircraft/jhmcs470ace.jpg

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## Myth_buster_1

F-16 MLU M2 Pilots guide


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## Myth_buster_1

PAF F-16 formation..

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## fatman17

Date Posted: 13-Aug-2008 

Jane's Defence Weekly 

TAI closes in on Pakistani F-16A/B upgrade contract

Lale Sariibrahimoglu JDW Correspondent - Ankara

Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) will be awarded a contract to upgrade *42 Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Lockheed Martin F-16A/B Block 15 combat aircraft *once negotiations are concluded later in the year, a TAI source has confirmed. 

*The mid-life upgrade (MLU) will involve an avionics replacement as well as structural modifications designed to bring them closer to Block 50 standard. *

The work will be carried out at TAI facilities near Ankara and will commence in early 2009; it is expected to be completed in 2011. 

According to TAI sources, an earlier agreement to upgrade PAF F-16s had to be abandoned due to unspecified economic reasons. For this latest upgrade, TAI was competing against Dutch company Fokker and Belgian company Sabca. 

*Before the work can begin, two Block 15 F-16s will undergo a test verification installation at a Lockheed Martin facility in the United States.* 

The Pakistan tender came following a letter of agreement (LOA) signed between the US and Pakistani governments in September 2007 clearing the transfer of avionics and structural upgrade components. 

Seperately, TAI plans to complete the MLU and structural modification of 17 Jordanian Block 15 F-16 A/Bs by the end of this year. 

Egypt has also announced its intention to upgrade its 33 F-16A/B Block 15 aircraft for which TAI plans to bid.

*Meanwhile, in a separate deal with Pakistan, Turkish company Aselsan, a strategic partner with Islamabad in the production of Pakistani army field radios, will also provide the Pakistani navy with four gyro-stabilised 25 mm guns under a deal signed in July. 

Additionally, Havelsan of Turkey has sold Pakistan a USD28 million tactical simulated range electronic warfare system to deter surface-to-air threats. 

Turkey and Pakistan have already agreed to co-operate in research and development across a range of defence projects, including the joint production of cluster bombs.*
*

this should clear-up the mistakes made by our newspaper services.*


Jane's Login

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## Owais

fatman17 said:


> Date Posted: 13-Aug-2008
> 
> Jane's Defence Weekly
> 
> TAI closes in on Pakistani F-16A/B upgrade contract
> 
> Lale Sariibrahimoglu JDW Correspondent - Ankara
> 
> Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) will be awarded a contract to upgrade *42 Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Lockheed Martin F-16A/B Block 15 combat aircraft *
> 
> *Before the work can begin, two Block 15 F-16s will undergo a test verification installation at a Lockheed Martin facility in the United States.*
> 
> Jane's Login



its really a good development. I have a little query here that news shows we have total of 44 F-16A/B. but there should be 46 F16s (32 old + 14 supplied by US)


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## fatman17

Owais said:


> its really a good development. I have a little query here that news shows we have total of 44 F-16A/B. but there should be 46 F16s (32 old + 14 supplied by US)



4 F-16s r already in the US for the MLU! the sums add up!


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## BATMAN

US releases $ 116 mln to finance Pakistan F-16 upgrades



> WASHINGTON (US): The United States has released $ 116 million to finance mid-life upgrades for Pakistans existing fleet of F-16 fighter planes.
> 
> The administration released the amount after completion of necessary process for shifting funds from foreign military financing, already allocated for the anti-terrorism South Asian ally.
> 
> The U.S. officials, commenting on the proposed re-allocation of funds last month, said jets upgrades would help enhance Pakistans counterterrorism capability.
> 
> Pakistans ambassador to the United States Husain Haqqani held a series of meetings with U.S. lawmakers during the past few weeks to secure wider support for the move.



Was it not suppose to be 230million! is it a typo or my false imagination? or perhaps funds had been slashed due to the incompetency of our ambassador to US?


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## fatman17

BATMAN said:


> US releases $ 116 mln to finance Pakistan F-16 upgrades
> 
> 
> 
> Was it not suppose to be 230million! is it a typo or my false imagination? or perhaps funds had been slashed due to the incompetency of our ambassador to US?



according to DAWN dated 17, Aug-08 " pakistan has already received the first tranche of US 108m, US 116m is the second tranche and a total of US474m will be used for these upgrades". so everything is fine.

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## Nutuk

First of all I applaud Pakistan on modernizing her airforce and the F16 is a relative good choice as midterm sollution. However technology is developing faster than ever in these modern times so Pakistan has to concentrate also on next generation stealth aircraft types. 

A candidate could be the JF-10, but honestly I am sceptical of how much better the JF-10 can be compared to the F16 block 50 configuration. The JF-10 is good no doubt, but good enough to call her a nex generation aircraft? I have my doubts. Maybe Pakistan should consider the F35 as well. Whatever you select, select the best with keeping in mind that such fighters will be in service for 25-30 years.


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## Nomi929

Nutuk said:


> First of all I applaud Pakistan on modernizing her airforce and the F16 is a relative good choice as midterm sollution. However technology is developing faster than ever in these modern times so Pakistan has to concentrate also on next generation stealth aircraft types.
> 
> A candidate could be the JF-10, but honestly I am sceptical of how much better the JF-10 can be compared to the F16 block 50 configuration. The JF-10 is good no doubt, but good enough to call her a nex generation aircraft? I have my doubts. Maybe Pakistan should consider the F35 as well. Whatever you select, select the best with keeping in mind that such fighters will be in service for 25-30 years.




Who will give F-35 to Pakistan???

U.S will not give its most advanced jet to PAKISTAN, due to Fear of technology leaking to China.


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## network54

namesake said:


> why is that PAF always goes for single engine fighter jet?



low maintenance, and cost effective...



> why it didnt developed a twin engined jet with China if as always said it was developed for both equally.?



JF-17 is a perfect replacement for aging fleet of mirage Q-5 and f-7... though maybe like F-6 twin engine chinese origin fighter, advance version of J-11 could also be offered..
who knows maybe pakistan's version of 5th generation stealth fighter could be worked out with china.. "twin engine"... 


> why it didnt purchased f15 when Usa was offering everything ,way back?
> why paf doesnt develops its own twin engine jet,



F-15= heavy maintenance meaning less time in air... how ever it does not mean PAF personals or pilots are not capable of flying f-15s in fact PAF pilots fly for KSA....


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## Nomi929

network54 said:


> low maintenance, and cost effective...
> 
> 
> F-15= heavy maintenance meaning less time in air... how ever it does not mean PAF personals or pilots are not capable of flying f-15s in fact PAF pilots fly for KSA....



Was PAKSITAN ever offered F-15???


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## fatman17

Nomi929 said:


> Was PAKSITAN ever offered F-15???



not to my knowledge!


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## JK!

Only the most trusted US allies like Japan or Saudi Arabia have ever been offered the F15


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## Nutuk

Nomi929 said:


> Who will give F-35 to Pakistan???
> 
> U.S will not give its most advanced jet to PAKISTAN, due to Fear of technology leaking to China.


Nobody will give, Pakistan has to purchase. About technology leaking to China you have a point but on the other hand the US is proposing the F35 also to India. Seen the chance of technology leaking to Russia with India is present I don't think the US is fearing that too much.


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## General Fujita

JK! said:


> Only the most trusted US allies like Japan or Saudi Arabia have ever been offered the F15



I doubt Uncle Sam trusts Saudi Arabia, its more the case of it needs Saudi Arabia. Back to the topic, even if the F-35 is offered to Pakistan, its not likely to be in the near future and perhaps an older block of it would be offered. I dont see the F-35 in PAF's plans, especially with the J-xx project looming.


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## Nomi929

Nutuk said:


> Nobody will give, Pakistan has to purchase. About technology leaking to China you have a point but on the other hand the US is proposing the F35 also to India. Seen the chance of technology leaking to Russia with India is present I don't think the US is fearing that too much.



Offcourse man, Pakistan has to purchase it, But F-15 was never available to Pakistan.

Secondly i doubt that, Us is proposing F-35 to India


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## Nutuk

Nomi929 said:


> Offcourse man, Pakistan has to purchase it, But F-15 was never available to Pakistan.
> 
> Secondly i doubt that, Us is proposing F-35 to India


I only stated F35 because she is the newest in her class with stealth features and 5th generation. The point is that Pakistan should look next to the midterm F16 solution also into the 5th generation aircrafts because India certainly will.

Even if the US wouldn't (which I doubt) go for a direct sale of F35 to Pakistan, even then Pakistan could opt for a joint order of the F35 along with Turkey. Well, everything is ofcourse a matter of budget but if Pakistan could afford it she should not get behind India in 5th generation fighters.

Side note: Turkey has already signed a MOU to order 100 F35 and preparing to extend the order to 16 more, 116 aircrafts.


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## nitesh

Nutuk said:


> I only stated F35 because she is the newest in her class with stealth features and 5th generation. The point is that Pakistan should look next to the midterm F16 solution also into the 5th generation aircrafts because India certainly will.
> 
> Even if the US wouldn't (which I doubt) go for a direct sale of F35 to Pakistan, even then Pakistan could opt for a joint order of the F35 along with Turkey. Well, everything is ofcourse a matter of budget but if Pakistan could afford it she should not get behind India in 5th generation fighters.
> 
> Side note: Turkey has already signed a MOU to order 100 F35 and preparing to extend the order to 16 more, 116 aircrafts.



Nutuk, the point you are making is ok but you must have seen the thread about air chief interview. Doesn't seem to be any place for F 35's


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## fatman17

Nutuk said:


> I only stated F35 because she is the newest in her class with stealth features and 5th generation. The point is that Pakistan should look next to the midterm F16 solution also into the 5th generation aircrafts because India certainly will.
> 
> Even if the US wouldn't (which I doubt) go for a direct sale of F35 to Pakistan, even then Pakistan could opt for a joint order of the F35 along with Turkey. Well, everything is ofcourse a matter of budget but if Pakistan could afford it she should not get behind India in 5th generation fighters.
> 
> Side note: Turkey has already signed a MOU to order 100 F35 and preparing to extend the order to 16 more, 116 aircrafts.



there is one difference my friend - Turkey is NATO whilst Pakistan is not!


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## jaison

nitesh said:


> Nutuk, the point you are making is ok but you must have seen the thread about air chief interview. Doesn't seem to be any place for F 35's



yes the us the f-16 is choosen it could besold the f-35,but the airchief said that f-35 was not wat india is looking for because it wants to gain strong expertise in design,development,testing,local production including engine,tot of software abd hardware this cannot be expected from the f-35 and only the joint russian project seems good.


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## fatman17

jaison said:


> yes the us the f-16 is choosen it could besold the f-35,but the airchief said that f-35 was not wat india is looking for because it wants to gain strong expertise in design,development,testing,local production including engine,tot of software abd hardware this cannot be expected from the f-35 and only the joint russian project seems good.



i think if india is offered the F-35 it would grab it with both hands.!


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## Nutuk

US offers F-35 fighters to India

A K Dhar in New Delhi 
July 22, 2007 20:49 IST

In a major move, the United States has sent feelers that it is now ready for transfer of hi-technology weaponry to India, including its 5th generation joint Strike Fighter F-35.

Though Pentagon has offered New Delhi participation in its missile shield, top of the shelf 4th generation F-16 and F-18/A fighters, weapon locating radars and its new brand of long range maritime reconnaissance aircraft, it has so far kept the F-35 under wraps.

But in a surprise move last week, a high-level team from US Defence Major Lockheed Martin met top officials of the Indian Air Force to convey that the F-35 Lightning-II was available for IAF's 5th generation fighter requirements.

Lockheed Martin's Vice President for Business Development, Rob Weiss told PTI after the meeting that they had indicated that the F-35 was ready to be in reckoning for

India's fighter needs beyond the induction of the 126 Multi Role Combat Aircraft.

The offer would come in handy for India as the country's security experts have been struggling to find partners to develop futuristic 5th generation fighters.

Though New Delhi has been in negotiation with Moscow [Images] for joint development and joint investment in next generation fighters, the Russian concepts of such fighters is currently only on the drawing board. 

Americans embarked on development of the F-35 in early 2000 with an intial cost outlay of USD 50 billion along with close strategic partners. The first of these new generation fighters are likly to be inducted into the US Air Force [Images] by the end of 2009 or in early 2010.

"In the next few years a number of countries are joining the F-35 programme and Indian Air Force could also consider joining," Weiss said. "We briefed top IAF officials about the new fighters."

With embedded antennas, aligned edges, internal weapons and fuel and special coatings and material, the F-35 fighter uses stealth to pick and choose engagements while reaming undetected by enemy defence systems. 

Weiss said the F-35 fighters boast of the most powerful sensor suite ever to be fitted on a fighter plane which will enable it to bring a seamless real world and real time 360 degree display of the battlespace to turn the pilots into "tacticians rather than technicians."

Lockheed Martin officials said if new countries joined the F-35 programme, the US could be open to delivery of new generation fighters within the next decade.

They said if the IAF chose the Lockheed Martin world's best selling fighter F-16 fighting falcons, it could "position India to be ready to receive advanced technologies incorporated in the F-35's."

Lockheed Martin officials said lot of new technologies being tested on F-35 would be leveraged in the new generation F-16 Block 50 fighters.

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## nitesh

No fatman sir, chances are remote, that india will be offered the f 35. Nutuk we are aware of that news after that there is nothing that has came out. And the news is for the 5th gen requirement not for the MRCA tender. But the PAK FA seems to be on track with russian version about to take flight by next year march.


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## Keysersoze

Nutuk said:


> US offers F-35 fighters to India
> 
> A K Dhar in New Delhi
> July 22, 2007 20:49 IST
> 
> In a major move, the United States has sent feelers that it is now ready for transfer of hi-technology weaponry to India, including its 5th generation joint Strike Fighter F-35.
> 
> Though Pentagon has offered New Delhi participation in its missile shield, top of the shelf 4th generation F-16 and F-18/A fighters, weapon locating radars and its new brand of long range maritime reconnaissance aircraft, it has so far kept the F-35 under wraps.
> 
> But in a surprise move last week, a high-level team from US Defence Major Lockheed Martin met top officials of the Indian Air Force to convey that the F-35 Lightning-II was available for IAF's 5th generation fighter requirements.
> 
> Lockheed Martin's Vice President for Business Development, Rob Weiss told PTI after the meeting that they had indicated that the F-35 was ready to be in reckoning for
> 
> India's fighter needs beyond the induction of the 126 Multi Role Combat Aircraft.
> 
> The offer would come in handy for India as the country's security experts have been struggling to find partners to develop futuristic 5th generation fighters.
> 
> Though New Delhi has been in negotiation with Moscow [Images] for joint development and joint investment in next generation fighters, the Russian concepts of such fighters is currently only on the drawing board.
> 
> Americans embarked on development of the F-35 in early 2000 with an intial cost outlay of USD 50 billion along with close strategic partners. The first of these new generation fighters are likly to be inducted into the US Air Force [Images] by the end of 2009 or in early 2010.
> 
> "In the next few years a number of countries are joining the F-35 programme and Indian Air Force could also consider joining," Weiss said. "We briefed top IAF officials about the new fighters."
> 
> With embedded antennas, aligned edges, internal weapons and fuel and special coatings and material, the F-35 fighter uses stealth to pick and choose engagements while reaming undetected by enemy defence systems.
> 
> Weiss said the F-35 fighters boast of the most powerful sensor suite ever to be fitted on a fighter plane which will enable it to bring a seamless real world and real time 360 degree display of the battlespace to turn the pilots into "tacticians rather than technicians."
> 
> Lockheed Martin officials said if new countries joined the F-35 programme, the US could be open to delivery of new generation fighters within the next decade.
> 
> They said if the IAF chose the Lockheed Martin world's best selling fighter F-16 fighting falcons, it could "position India to be ready to receive advanced technologies incorporated in the F-35's."
> 
> Lockheed Martin officials said lot of new technologies being tested on F-35 would be leveraged in the new generation F-16 Block 50 fighters.



Nutuk please note that this is a classic case of south Asian defence reporting I.E. utter crap.
If you read the headline it blares "INDIA TO GET F-35!!!" but in reality tucked away in the bottom it says IF India purchases the F-16 for the MRCA then they would position India to get "technologies from the f-35 in the future"

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## fatman17

nitesh said:


> No fatman sir, chances are remote, that india will be offered the f 35. Nutuk we are aware of that news after that there is nothing that has came out. And the news is for the 5th gen requirement not for the MRCA tender. But the PAK FA seems to be on track with russian version about to take flight by next year march.



i believe the PAK FA program is delayed according to JDW. i will find the article and post it.


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## nitesh

fatman17 said:


> i believe the PAK FA program is delayed according to JDW. i will find the article and post it.



Well sir, that will be interesting, but according to latest news the russian version is supposed to take skies next year march, please post the article.


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## jaison

Keysersoze said:


> Nutuk please note that this is a classic case of south Asian defence reporting I.E. utter crap.
> If you read the headline it blares "INDIA TO GET F-35!!!" but in reality tucked away in the bottom it says IF India purchases the F-16 for the MRCA then they would position India to get "technologies from the f-35 in the future"



then y does it say iaf shuold the project

US wants India's fighter jet order, dangles F-35 carrot 
The U.S. government would need to approve any sale of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter to India. US is an unreliable friend , though it is a friend . Indians , particularly Scientific community ,Millitary and partiotic groups do not trust US . Good example is Nuke deal , which is almost dead , because of senseless strings attached to achieve US's unspoken goal is to curtail India's nuclear power by a trap . It is better to keep away from US , an unreliable friend .



Vishal Thapar / CNN-IBN



Published on Thursday , July 19, 2007 at 08:55 in Nation section 

Tags: US, India 


New Delhi: Unmatched stealth and super cruise - the Indian Air Force got a glimpse of the future of air combat in an American presentation on its next-generation fighter, the F-35, on Tuesday. 


There were indications that the US is willing to share this new weapon with India, but it's clearly a carrot for giving the older F-16 a leg up in the Indian tender for 126 fighter aircraft. 


Says Lockheed Martin's Royce Caplinger, "Beyond the RFP that's on the horizon, the F-35 too could play a role, sometime in the future."


The Americans are raising the bar for the competition in the Indian arms bazaar. They are making offers which are difficult to resist. India is being told that it can have the new generation stealth fighter for the price of an F-16.


"Think one to one and I am serious when I say this," says Caplinger.


So, the F-16 is now being sold as the transition to a fifth generation fighter, which has no parallel among the competition. And affordability is the key to this sales pitch. 


The price is about $50 million apiece at current prices. The Americans promise that the F-35 will take India into a different league. 


"It's a game changer, in every sense of the word," says Caplinger.


The Joint Strike Aircraft will be operationalised only by 2014. The first of India's 126 fighters of an earlier generation will only start arriving by then. 


So, the signal that the F-35 would be available is bound to raise an Indian dilemma: Is India investing over Rs 40,000 crore in fighters which will be rendered obsolete by a similarly-priced aircraft?
IntelliBriefs: US wants India's fighter jet order, dangles F-35 carrot
i couldnt find the proper link but this is wat the air chief had to say abt the offer


*&#8220;We cannot buy JSF,&#8221; Air Chief Marshall Shashindra Pal Tyagi told reporters as he outlined India&#8217;s ambitious modernization plan. &#8220;We would rather have most of the stuff done here.&#8221; 

............ 

But that long list of countries that already have divvied up work on the project is exactly why &#8212; after looking closely at the program &#8212; India isn&#8217;t interested, Tyagi said. Indian officials have made it clear that they want a key development role in the aircraft they buy, along with the ability to build 90 percent of the jet in India. 

............ 

Although interest in JSF is scant, Tyagi said he was attracted to Indian participation in Russia&#8217;s drive to develop a fifth-generation fighter jet, an endeavor that would allow Indian engineers to play a key early role in the program. New Delhi, however, is waiting on Russia, which has the lead on the effort.*


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## fatman17

^^^i think all this should be discussed in the indian section of the forum. this is a F-16 thread.
thx


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## fatman17

Taiwan acquires 60 Harpoon missiles 

August 28, 2008 (by Lieven Dewitte) - Taiwan has acquired 60 Harpoon anti-ship missiles from the United States to be used by the air force's F-16 fighter jets.


This US$90 million (S$127 million) missile deal comes in a boost of its defense against rival China.

The sale was announced after Washington affirmed in July that its policy on supplying arms to Taiwan remained unchanged amid speculation of an arms freeze to the island.

Taiwan's air force carried out its first test firing of the AGM-84 Harpoon missiles in 2004 in a display of the island's ability to ward off a Chinese invasion.

China and Taiwan have been diplomatic rivals since the end of the Chinese civil war in 1949. Beijing describes Taiwan as a renegade province that must be reclaimed by force if necessary.

Taiwan bought 120 AIM-120s (some sources state 200) from the United States in 2000 but they were only delivered after China had test-fired the Russian-made air-to-air AA-12 missiles on June 2002.

Washington had delayed delivery to avoid criticism that it was fuelling an arms race in the Taiwan Strait and only delivered the missiles after Beijing acquired the equivalent AA-12.

Washington has been the island's leading arms supplier, despite switching diplomatic recognition from Taipei to Beijing in 1979.

http://www.f-16.net

_this is an interesting development - has the PAF considered this option?_


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## IceCold

fatman17 said:


> Taiwan acquires 60 Harpoon missiles
> 
> August 28, 2008 (by Lieven Dewitte) - Taiwan has acquired 60 Harpoon anti-ship missiles from the United States to be used by the air force's F-16 fighter jets.
> 
> 
> This US$90 million (S$127 million) missile deal comes in a boost of its defense against rival China.
> 
> The sale was announced after Washington affirmed in July that its policy on supplying arms to Taiwan remained unchanged amid speculation of an arms freeze to the island.
> 
> Taiwan's air force carried out its first test firing of the AGM-84 Harpoon missiles in 2004 in a display of the island's ability to ward off a Chinese invasion.
> 
> China and Taiwan have been diplomatic rivals since the end of the Chinese civil war in 1949. Beijing describes Taiwan as a renegade province that must be reclaimed by force if necessary.
> 
> Taiwan bought 120 AIM-120s (some sources state 200) from the United States in 2000 but they were only delivered after China had test-fired the Russian-made air-to-air AA-12 missiles on June 2002.
> 
> Washington had delayed delivery to avoid criticism that it was fuelling an arms race in the Taiwan Strait and only delivered the missiles after Beijing acquired the equivalent AA-12.
> 
> Washington has been the island's leading arms supplier, despite switching diplomatic recognition from Taipei to Beijing in 1979.
> 
> http://www.f-16.net
> 
> _this is an interesting development - has the PAF considered this option?_



Certainly will raise some eye brows in Beijing. US was very actively involved in raising the Tibet issue trying to give a bad name to China when the greatest event of all Olympics was about to began in China and now this. US was up to no good then and certainly is not now. If China needs to reclaim the island, it wont happen diplomatically and force will have to be used sooner then latter.


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## fatman17

IceCold said:


> Certainly will raise some eye brows in Beijing. US was very actively involved in raising the Tibet issue trying to give a bad name to China when the greatest event of all Olympics was about to began in China and now this. US was up to no good then and certainly is not now. If China needs to reclaim the island, it wont happen diplomatically and force will have to be used sooner then latter.



as important as your point is, it can be discussed elsewhere - my main thrust was that pakistan has the harpoon asm in its inventory. has the PAF thought about integrating the missile on its F-16s!

*x_man / blain2 any idea!*


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## IceCold

fatman17 said:


> as important as your point is, it can be discussed elsewhere - my main thrust was that pakistan has the harpoon asm in its inventory. has the PAF thought about integrating the missile on its F-16s!
> 
> *x_man / blain2 any idea!*



Point taken sir!

Also sir if you or Blain sir can shed some light, now i know this is an F-16 thread but the issue is related to the Harpoon so i have raised this question. PAFs mirages V are for the naval role and they will be soon replaced by the JFs so has PAF integrated or thought of integrating this missile into the JFs or will even the US allow them to be inducted into the JF-17 considering Chinese participation in the project.


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## network54

IceCold said:


> Point taken sir!
> 
> Also sir if you or Blain sir can shed some light, now i know this is an F-16 thread but the issue is related to the Harpoon so i have raised this question. PAFs mirages V are for the naval role and they will be soon replaced by the JFs so has PAF integrated or thought of integrating this missile into the JFs or will even the US allow them to be inducted into the JF-17 considering Chinese participation in the project.



the possibility of JF-17 using Harpoons are very low.. 10+ PN P-3 will use 40 odd harpoons.. upgraded Exocet or a new version of Exocet would be a choice for jf... one must wonder if jf-17 will have any anti-ship role and what will they carry after Mirage and Exocet retires? i dont think any new anti-ship missile for 4th generation fighter will be available... i even dough if JF-17 will be capable for anti-ship roles.. one draw back.. anti-ship missile??? other then P-3 only f-16 block 52+ will be capable for harpoon role...

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## blain2

fatman17 said:


> as important as your point is, it can be discussed elsewhere - my main thrust was that pakistan has the harpoon asm in its inventory. has the PAF thought about integrating the missile on its F-16s!
> 
> *x_man / blain2 any idea!*



Pakistan has purchased a combination of Harpoons which include the Air Launched ones as well as Ship/SSK launched ones. The Air Launched ones are primarily for use with the Orions but PAF would also be able to use them with Blk52s as they will be the only ones capable of launching the Harpoons. Blk15s with or without MLU do not have this ability as far as I am aware.

Ice,

I do not think that PAF would go down the path of integrating Harpoons with the JF-17. The Chinese have quite a few Air launched AShMs that can be used with the JF-17s.

Network is correct.

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## fatman17

blain2 said:


> Pakistan has purchased a combination of Harpoons which include the Air Launched ones as well as Ship/SSK launched ones. The Air Launched ones are primarily for use with the Orions but PAF would also be able to use them with Blk52s as they will be the only ones capable of launching the Harpoons. *Blk15s with or without MLU do not have this ability as far as I am aware.*
> Ice,
> 
> I do not think that PAF would go down the path of integrating Harpoons with the JF-17. The Chinese have quite a few Air launched AShMs that can be used with the JF-17s.
> 
> Network is correct.



then why do we keep saying the blk15mlu = blk50/52 after upgrade. it was mentioned somewhere that actually the blk15mlu = blk40! is that a correct assumption?


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## network54

fatman17 said:


> then why do we keep saying the blk15mlu = blk50/52 after upgrade. it was mentioned somewhere that actually the blk15mlu = blk40! is that a correct assumption?



F-16 MLU will be just as capable as block52+ as they will both share same radar, and fire control.. its just that MLUs will be stationed in northern air command majority in sargodha or maybe all of them.... like ACM said... block 52 will be stationed in Shabaz base... so they will be the closest once for PN support..


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## Munir

>>>jaison; then y does it say iaf shuold the project US wants India's fighter jet order, dangles F-35 carrot 
The U.S. government would need to approve any sale of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter to India. US is an unreliable friend , though it is a friend . Indians , particularly Scientific community ,Millitary and partiotic groups do not trust US . Good example is Nuke deal , which is almost dead , because of senseless strings attached to achieve US's unspoken goal is to curtail India's nuclear power by a trap . It is better to keep away from US , an unreliable friend .

The US even does not provides its closest alies the stuff to maintain JSF, even if they funded and provided technology. What makes you sure you get a carrot? As far as I can judge, and I can tell you that I know more then a few, that this project is to absorb technology and control it. They are not allowing you to open avionics... Let us forget any software or links. Even if you get it, which I doubt, you will end up being more depending on you know...

>>>Vishal Thapar / CNN-IBN
Published on Thursday , July 19, 2007 at 08:55 in Nation section 

Old report.... Times change...

>>>We cannot buy JSF, Air Chief Marshall Shashindra Pal Tyagi told reporters as he outlined Indias ambitious modernization plan. We would rather have most of the stuff done here. 

I doubt that...

>>>But that long list of countries that already have divvied up work on the project is exactly why  after looking closely at the program  India isnt interested, Tyagi said. Indian officials have made it clear that they want a key development role in the aircraft they buy, along with the ability to build 90 percent of the jet in India. 

They fail in deveoping so why join in a complex project? If LCA ends being a testcase the next program would be something like JSF? Harldy realistic. If China, which did a fine job with JF17 and J10, needs some time to go towards JXX then India is not even in the gen before that... Which is true cause they are busy with LCA.

>>>Although interest in JSF is scant, Tyagi said he was attracted to Indian participation in Russias drive to develop a fifth-generation fighter jet, an endeavor that would allow Indian engineers to play a key early role in the program. New Delhi, however, is waiting on Russia, which has the lead on the effort.

It is a paint part from the Indian side. India is still a beginner in aviation world. Keyrole? Please. The article becomes unrealistic.


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## Nomi929

network54 said:


> F-16 MLU will be just as capable as block52+ as they will both share same radar, and fire control.. its just that MLUs will be stationed in northern air command majority in sargodha or maybe all of them.... like ACM said... block 52 will be stationed in Shabaz base... so they will be the closest once for PN support..



Will these F-16 MLU have CFT installed on them ?


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## Munir

Nomi929 said:


> Will these F-16 MLU have CFT installed on them ?



Only the block52+ has that arrangement. There is no update possible cause it leads to change of fbw and structure.


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## Nomi929

Munir said:


> Only the block52+ has that arrangement. There is no update possible cause it leads to change of fbw and structure.



Is F-16 Blk 52+ as manvourable as F16 Blk 15???

Bcoz looking at F16 Blk 52+ with CFT, it looks Bulkier and much heavier.


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## Myth_buster_1

Nomi929 said:


> Is F-16 Blk 52+ as manvourable as F16 Blk 15???
> 
> Bcoz looking at F16 Blk 52+ with CFT, it looks Bulkier and much heavier.



block 15 is more manoeuvrable then block 52 because is lighter and plus CFT are designed to be low drag..


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## fatman17

network54 said:


> F-16 MLU will be just as capable as block52+ as they will both share same radar, and fire control.. its just that MLUs will be stationed in northern air command majority in sargodha or maybe all of them.... like ACM said... block 52 will be stationed in Shabaz base... so they will be the closest once for PN support..



the blk52 can fire the harpoon asm but the blk 15 mlu cannot as per blain2. so how r they capable? my question still stands blk 15 mlu is inferior to blk 52!


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## Myth_buster_1

fatman17 said:


> the blk52 can fire the harpoon asm but the blk 15 mlu cannot as per blain2. so how r they capable? my question still stands blk 15 mlu is inferior to blk 52!





USAF F-16C block 40 #87353 carrying an AGM-84 Harpoon all-weather anti-ship missile


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## Munir

More advanced versions means more weight so less agile... Unless you compensate with more power... The E/F version has some intrsting power added but besides that only the Block10-15 A version is the winner when it comes to agility. But if you have better radar, sensors, weapons you do not need that agility to win.

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## fatman17

23march said:


> USAF F-16C block 40 #87353 carrying an AGM-84 Harpoon all-weather anti-ship missile



thx - that settles it! i can sleep in peace now!


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## Nomi929

fatman17 said:


> thx - that settles it! i can sleep in peace now!



Wats the conclusion, Can F-16 Blk 15 MLU carry Harpoon or not?


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## Myth_buster_1

Nomi929 said:


> Wats the conclusion, Can F-16 Blk 15 MLU carry Harpoon or not?



i dont know why people keep looking at block 15 MLU as downgraded or incapable platform for Harpoons.. harpoon was specifically designed for F-18 and F-16 i am talking about MRCAs.. even if as assumed by some members that block 15 MLU will be block 40 equivalent i have already shown photographic evidence that it can carry harpoons.. anyway.. PAF will be getting MLU M-3 not M-2 which has older avionics and radar but M-3 is a great improvement over any other MLU on european f-16 block 15s...


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## Nomi929

23march said:


> i dont know why people keep looking at block 15 MLU as downgraded or incapable platform for Harpoons.. harpoon was specifically designed for F-18 and F-16 i am talking about MRCAs.. even if as assumed by some members that block 15 MLU will be block 40 equivalent i have already shown photographic evidence that it can carry harpoons.. anyway.. PAF will be getting MLU M-3 not M-2 which has older avionics and radar but M-3 is a great improvement over any other MLU on european f-16 block 15s...



Block 20 F-16's can also carry Harpoons.


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## fatman17

Lockheed F-16 sale to Iraq would be biggest in 5 years

Bloomberg News

Sept. 5, 2008, 6:26AM

A Lockheed Martin order from Iraq for 36 advanced F-16 fighters would be the biggest export purchase of the plane in five years, according to company data.

Iraq wants to buy the aircraft to reduce its reliance on U.S. airpower, the Wall Street Journal reported. Ann van Hooydonck, Lockheed's spokeswoman in Europe for aerospace issues, didn't return a call seeking comment.

More than 4,300 F-16s have been built for 24 countries, with 52 follow-on purchases by 14 customers, according to the company's Web site. Lockheed won a $3.5 billion agreement in 2003 to sell 48 F-16s to Poland and in 2000 sold 80 of the planes to the United Arab Emirates in an order valued at $6.4 billion.

The Bethesda, Md.-based company's most recent F-16 export order came from Morocco in 2007 for 24 aircraft. Morocco was the 25th country to select the plane, picking the U.S. model over the Rafale from France's Dassault Aviation SA. Other recent orders have come from Turkey and Pakistan.

Lockheed Martin has advanced 8 percent this year in New York trading. The shares traded in Germany fell 0.9 percent to the equivalent of $112.82 as of 12:05 p.m. in Frankfurt.

Production of the F-16 will probably continue beyond 2012, with major upgrades being incorporated for all F-16 versions, Lockheed Chief Executive Officer Robert Stevens said in July at the Farnborough International Air Show in England.

Morocco, Turkey

On June 6, the U.S. awarded Lockheed a contract worth $233.6 million to begin production of the 24 planes for Morocco.

In May 2007, the governments of Turkey and the U.S. signed an agreement for the sale of 30 F-16s. The total value for aircraft and equipment is about $1.8 billion. Turkey had an earlier F-16 order and also pledged to buy F-35 Joint Strike Fighters made by Lockheed Martin.

*Pakistan has committed to buy 18 F-16 planes, and may purchase as many as 36.*

Iraqi funds would be used to finance its purchase, which would be reviewed by the Defense Department, State Department and Congress, the Wall Street Journal reported, citing people.

www.bloomberg.com


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## was

*Pakistan cites anti-terrorism need for F-16s*


WASHINGTON: Pakistan uses F-16 fighters to support a campaign against border militants and needs upgrades to be able to fly at night, a Pakistani official said on Friday.

The official underlined equipment needs and listed recent achievements fighting al Qaeda and Taliban insurgents ahead of a US congressional hearing next week that will examine the utility of F-16s in US ally Pakistan's war on terrorism.

Pakistan has flown nearly 100 missions during three weeks in August that produced some 500-550 Taliban casualties.

&#8216;These missions have been very focused, and since air power is always effective, the Taliban are very much upset about this and have retaliated,&#8217; said the official, speaking on condition of anonymity.

&#8216;This campaign will last for some time,&#8217; he told a small group of reporters.

The House of Representatives Foreign Affairs Subcommittee on the Middle East and South Asia will hold a hearing on Tuesday and grill Bush administration officials on the F-16 program with Pakistan and its utility in counterterrorism operations against al Qaeda and Taliban extremists.

The title of the hearing -- &#8216;Defeating al Qaeda's Air Force: Pakistan's F-16 Program in the Fight Against Terrorism&#8217; -- betrays lawmakers' skepticism and belief that Pakistan wants the advanced fighters to deploy against rival India, an analyst said.

In July, two senior Democratic Party lawmakers asked the Bush administration not to shift $226.5 million in US counterterrorism aid to Pakistan to upgrade Pakistani F-16 fighters, saying they feared the plan diverted cash from more urgent counterterrorism efforts.

The Pakistani official said well-funded and well-armed militants had dug in with anti-aircraft guns that made it risky to use helicopters to support the army's fight against militant havens in the northwestern Baujur region.

Pakistani forces were &#8216;very much handicapped&#8217; by the lack of equipment to enable the F-16s to fly and fight at night, giving the militants the ability to regroup after daytime encounters, said the official.

&#8216;We are blind and they are moving at will,&#8217; he said.

The debate takes place against the backdrop of long-standing US criticism that Pakistan has not done enough to fight militants hiding in remote corners of that country and staging attacks against US and NATO troops in Afghanistan.

The official called this criticism the &#8216;most damaging and demoralizing thing&#8217; after the Pakistan military had suffered 1,200 killed and 3,000 disabled in fours years of fighting in border areas.

&#8216;We are in this war as much as America,&#8217; he said.


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## fatman17

was said:


> *Pakistan cites anti-terrorism need for F-16s*
> 
> 
> WASHINGTON: Pakistan uses F-16 fighters to support a campaign against border militants and needs upgrades to be able to fly at night, a Pakistani official said on Friday..



money has already been shifted to pakistan account!


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

I think the debate over the utility of Pakistan utilizing F-16's in COIN should end now.

Pakistan has demonstrated amply the ability to use coordinated air strikes to eliminate insurgents and their infrastructure. For a country with Pakistan's resources, it is not feasible to operate several types of AC - and the 'dual use' of the F-16's offer the best bang for the buck.


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## Munir

bye bye bye

US Congressional committee plans hearing on F-16 sale


By Anwar Iqbal


WASHINGTON, Sept 13: A US congressional panel has called a hearing on the Bush administration&#8217;s decision to sell F-16 aircraft to Pakistan, probing allegations that Islamabad is using US anti-terrorism funds to buy weapons that can only be used against India.

The title of the hearing &#8212;&#8220;Defeating Al Qaeda&#8217;s Air Force: Pakistan&#8217;s F-16 Programme in the Fight Against Terrorism&#8221; &#8212; indicates that the programme may face strong criticism from US lawmakers.

The hearing was called by Congressman Gary Ackerman, a New York Democrat, who chairs the House Foreign Affairs Subcommittee on the Middle East and South Asia.

Last week, Democratic presidential candidate Senator Barack Obama also accused Pakistan of using US anti-terrorism funds for &#8220;preparing for a war against India&#8221;.

On Sept 16, the House sub-committee will seek witness testimony about the complete scope of the F-16 programme with Pakistan, including the number of planes, updates made to the existing planes, proposed armaments, schedule of delivery and source of payment. It will also probe how Pakistan has so far used US foreign military financing (FMF) for counter-terrorism and law-enforcement activities against Al Qaeda and the Taliban.

&#8220;The sub-committee will seek testimony on how these planes contribute to Pakistan&#8217;s efforts in the fight against terrorism and extremism, how the use of additional FMF to pay for mid-life updates to Pakistan&#8217;s existing F-16 fleet enhances those efforts and whether the sub-committee should expect further requests to use FMF provided to Pakistan for support of the F-16 programme,&#8221; said Mr Ackerman.

The sub-committee is also expected to examine what counter-terrorism equipment or programmes were foregone as a result of the Bush administration&#8217;s request on July 16 to use counter-terrorism funds for financing mid-life updates of Pakistan&#8217;s aging F-16 fleet. The panel will also look at how the F-16 programme fits into the broader US strategy in the fight against terrorism as well as into the overall US relationship with Pakistan.


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## IceCold

Well we did made the mistake by going for the F-16s even though when we had other choices at hand. Now i know i will face the argument of how cheap it is for the PAF to maintain the F-16s as we already have the infrastructure in place and PAF being familar with the F-16s or that the other platforms were very expensive for the PAF to acquire etc etc, but the bottom line is did we get it, NO we did not, so let me ask a question here, what good did it brought us finally, except of offcourse the time that was wasted in the acquiring of modern platforms that PAF needed badly. EVen if we could get only one squardon of rafale or for that matter the EF, we should have opted for it and with time as more funds would have been made available, we could have increased the numbers. Now with time lost we are back to square one.

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## Myth_buster_1

man screw F-16s..  uncle sam can shove it up theirs where the sun does not shine!! very cost effective, low maintenance, and F-16 well crew trained will come to test when these "savior" of pakistan aka "F-16" comes with a little surprise during possible pak indo war and PAF finds its F-16s stuck in hangers because all of sudden navigation or critical systems have been corrupted!! oooppss...... well if you thought hollywood films were fictions PAF will be the first one to realize how nonfiction these movies were..

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## shehbazi2001

Views of Gp Capt (R) Cecil Chaudry about F-16 acquisition

Q. What is your opinion about the F-16 deal?

Though the finest aircraft of its kind we should never have gone for the F16s. Like I said earlier we never learn from our past mistakes. The Americans have a very poor political track record with us; they let us down in 65 and 71 despite we being members of their CENTO pact. On the other hand France has been a reliable friend, we should have gone for the Mirage-2000 instead. I dont know but we hear about kickbacks in the F16 deal but NAB does not seem to think so or they dont want to go that far. But I do know of a number of ex PAF officers who could not afford a car, now own flats in England  thanks to British weekly lottery I guess.


Chowk: Law Liberties Justice: Group Captain Cecil Chaudhry, SJ


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## Myth_buster_1

shehbazi2001 said:


> Views of Gp Capt (R) Cecil Chaudry about F-16 acquisition
> 
> Q. What is your opinion about the F-16 deal?
> 
> Though the finest aircraft of its kind we should never have gone for the F16s. Like I said earlier we never learn from our past mistakes. The Americans have a very poor political track record with us; they let us down in 65 and 71 despite we being members of their CENTO pact. On the other hand France has been a reliable friend, we should have gone for the Mirage-2000 instead. * I don&#8217;t know but we hear about kickbacks in the F16 deal but NAB does not seem to think so or they don&#8217;t want to go that far.But I do know of a number of ex PAF officers who could not afford a car, now own flats in England &#8212; thanks to British weekly lottery I guess.
> 
> 
> Chowk: Law Liberties Justice: Group Captain Cecil Chaudhry, SJ*http://www.chowk.com/articles/5080



dude! this is a serious issue!!!


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## shehbazi2001

It must be remembered that in 1965 on the Khem Kiran front, Pak Army seized some ammunition from Indian Army and it was amazing to see that on some boxes it was written *"To be shipped to Pakistan"*

These were US ammo containers/boxes destined for Pakistan but with outbreak of war with India in 1965, they were delivered to India instead.

Pakistan being a nuclear state, has strategic assets to defend and should have gone for fighters equipped with BVR Air to Air missiles.

Cecil Chaudhry has mentioned of Kickbacks in F-16 deal, now its not understandable that why PAF dropped Mirage-2000 deal when allegedly there were charges of corruption??? Instead of making the deal transparent, we dropped the deal......

I think we should suffer now.....and suffer badly.....in order not to repeat the mistakes......

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## shehbazi2001

23march said:


> dude! this is a serious issue!!!




I think Cecil is pointing to first F-16 acquisition in early 1980s and not the current deal.....however it is still relevant.


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## shehbazi2001

23march said:


> man screw F-16s..  uncle sam can shove it up theirs where the sun does not shine!! very cost effective, low maintenance, and F-16 well crew trained will come to test when these "savior" of pakistan aka "F-16" comes with a little surprise during possible pak indo war and PAF finds its F-16s stuck in hangers because all of sudden navigation or critical systems have been corrupted!! oooppss...... well if you thought hollywood films were fictions PAF will be the first one to realize how nonfiction these movies were..




These things are not fiction.....a far eastern country has already experienced it....I forgot the country...it was perhaps F/A-18 operator.....they were amazed to know that they cant use their fighters against a certain neighbour.....I shall post details if I found them out....


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## araz

One of my dear friends confided in me that he thinks we will never get F16s Bl 52+. I did not believe him then, perhaps his experience was MUCH more than mine. Sorry MY friend
rgearding kickbacks, I thin the fact that PAF changed tack half way through with massive reduction in orders goes against that, but who knows!!!!
Araz


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## shehbazi2001

I read this on a forum and I dont know it in more detail. However I am copying this from another forum of military aviation, without my personal comments,

"I would like to point out a statement made last year (2006) by the former Malaysian PM, Dr Mahathir. It seems the ten F/A-18s, that Malaysians purchased from USA cannot be used against certain neighboring countries because the aircraft computers are programmed like that. There is a special source code to modify the programme, which the USA did not give the Malaysians, and the latter came to know of this limitation only later".

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## IceCold

Man i just hate it when mistakes over mistakes are committed time and time again. Indeed i would agree here with the retired Capt that there is more to this deal then what we normally hear about the infrastructure and other nonsense. While lost time now cannot be regained and i for highly doubt that unless our top brass will hear a straight no to their face there eyes wont be opened, i would still wish for the top brass to get their heads out of the sand and analyze the situation at hand, drop the idea of going for this damn piece of junk and enter into negotiations with the french over the possible induction of the Rafale even if that means one squardon of it. Latter we can sell our F-16s raise a bit money out of them and perhaps increase its numbers. A contract with the Chinese should also be finalized by now either we want the J-10 or not.


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## Myth_buster_1

hmmm we are waisting 5 billion dollars on something that will be absolute by 2030 20 years from now without any guarantee that it wont be bugged along with armament package.. waisting almost 1.5 billion dollars on new18 f-16s where as Austria paid 1.4 billion dollars for 14 EF-2000 with spare, training and i think armament package as well. here we are stuck with efff sollahh... though i think upgrading teens is a good thing.. PAF has no answer for IAF 124 MRCA and even MKI to some degree.. PAF has yet to decide an AESA and french avioncis package for FC-20.... let me guess.. something cheap and "cost effective" mirage-2000-5/9 avionics and radar do you guys think ACM needs a double check? and from whom?


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## ejaz007

We are not wasting our 5 billion dollars on the package. It was part of US military assistance that was announced for next perhaps three years. The buy of new F-16 would cost around 1 billion dollars and the rest of the amount is for some other programs including MLUs for the existing fleet. Some of the money has already been released for MLUs and F-16 related purchases for the MLUs.

Pakistan is only paying for the new F-16's and that too I hope after the matter goes through Congress. This is what we should do considering previous track record.

US administration had notified congress regarding the sale and congres had thirty days to block it which it did not. The only thing that can block the sale now is a law like Pressler amendment which I personally believe is not likely soon because of the WOT.

Any ways we should seriously consider new model Mirage 2000 to reduce our dependency on F-16. French should be interested as they have failed to gather any orders for some time.


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## Nomi929

ejaz007 said:


> Any ways we should seriously consider new model Mirage 2000 to reduce our dependency on F-16. French should be interested as they have failed to gather any orders for some time.



Assembly Line of Mirage 2000 has been closed. 

France is putting all effort towards rafale.


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## ejaz007

Closing of assembly line does not mean the product can not be produced again. Remember Rafael has not bagged reasonable order from any airforce. So if say PAF goes for about 30 Mirage 2000-9 then I am sure French would be more than happy to reopen production line.

Dassault's web site still lists Mirage 2000. This means they have not entirely thrown out the fighter.


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## Jliu

IceCold said:


> Man i just hate it when mistakes over mistakes are committed time and time again. Indeed i would agree here with the retired Capt that there is more to this deal then what we normally hear about the infrastructure and other nonsense. While lost time now cannot be regained and i for highly doubt that unless our top brass will hear a straight no to their face there eyes wont be opened, i would still wish for the top brass to get their heads out of the sand and analyze the situation at hand, drop the idea of going for this damn piece of junk and enter into negotiations with the french over the possible induction of the Rafale even if that means one squardon of it. Latter we can sell our F-16s raise a bit money out of them and perhaps increase its numbers. A contract with the Chinese should also be finalized by now either we want the J-10 or not.



I disagree with the induction of the Rafale into the PAF inventory on the basis that it does not address the quantitative imbalance between the PAF and IAF due to the fact only about one squadron (12-18) w/ complete weapons package may be procured due to funding. While roughly technologically on par with the Su-30MKI this asset critically shares the situation of the Spartans at Thermopylae as well as the Allies in the Fulda Gap in the 80's. Too few against too many. Better off buying ~36 F-16C/D and accelerating deployment of the JF-17 which was developed for the PAF's needs anyway.

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## muse

The Indian is a potential adversary - when was the last time the indian landed assasins in Pakistan?? When was the last time the Indian made statements like those made by the US? When was the last time the indian premier or President made treats to take war to Pakistan? Better an enemy like India than a friend like the U.S. 

The sooner the U.S. is shown the door, the sooner peace will return to Pakistan. And yes, this includes those damn F-16. Penny wise and pound foolish.

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## ejaz007

Keeping enemity with USA is bad but keeping friendship with them is worst. The sooner our great leaders learn this the better.


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## IceCold

Jliu said:


> I disagree with the induction of the Rafale into the PAF inventory on the basis that it does not address the quantitative imbalance between the PAF and IAF due to the fact only about one squadron (12-18) w/ complete weapons package may be procured due to funding. While roughly technologically on par with the Su-30MKI this asset critically shares the situation of the Spartans at Thermopylae as well as the Allies in the Fulda Gap in the 80's. Too few against too many. Better off buying ~36 F-16C/D and accelerating deployment of the JF-17 which was developed for the PAF's needs anyway.



We are not getting F-16s. This is a reality that Pakistanis need to see before we waste any more time. Also we are not buying 36 although the initial order was expected to be 36. We were buying only 18 which means just one squardon. Now coming back to the imbalance, if we go by what you said about the quantitative imbalance, then i can argue with the same thing that how only 18 would be any different. Bottom line is that we need some serious punch in the PAF and Rafale seems to be the logical step for two main reasons. One its a modern platform which will see alot of future development including an AESA radar while the F-16s have seen its glory days and no matter what toys they put into it, the fact remains the same that the airframe is on the verge of its life span. Second, France is a much much more reliable supplier then US and unlike F-16s, rafales will not come with strings attached to them.

As i have mentioned in my previous post that we can start with one squardon and all its weapon package and with time as more resources are made available to the PAF, we can gradually increase the numbers. Also we will have the option to sell our F-16s. That will too raise money to atleast induct one more squardon of rafale after the intial one. 
JF-17 is a whole different category. Even with the JFs we need another platform, a bigger, better platform. That is why F-16s were procured at the first place.

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## Munir

It does not matter what we do. They will use F16 as often as possible do push us. There is no shame left to that. The other shame is that we are willing to induct these planes. I would no longer opt for any US plane.

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## BATMAN

ejaz007 said:


> Closing of assembly line does not mean the product can not be produced again. Remember Rafael has not bagged reasonable order from any airforce. So if say PAF goes for about 30 Mirage 2000-9 then I am sure French would be more than happy to reopen production line.
> 
> Dassault's web site still lists Mirage 2000. This means they have not entirely thrown out the fighter.



Mirrage is not a replacement for F-16.
By the time assembly line of mirage may be operational in Pakistan, JF-17 will be way advance and in mass production.
I think we have no option left other than JF-17 and J-10 and with decent radar and BVR they will do just fine in their respective roles.
We need to focus more on radar and BVR missile from any source incl. France.


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## Neo

*INTERVIEW-U.S. says funds for F-16s to Pakistan is tough sell ​*15 Sep 2008 

By Sue Pleming

WASHINGTON, Sept 15 (Reuters) - The *Bush administration expects an uphill battle with Congress *for permission to use counterterrorism funds to upgrade Pakistan's F-16 fighters, the State Department's top diplomat for South Asia said on Monday.

*But even if lawmakers balk, the State Department believes it has the authority to shift counterterrorism aid to the fighter program.*

*"For the moment, we're not taking a legalistic approach to this. We're trying to work it out with the Congress," *Richard Boucher, assistant secretary for South and Central Asian Affairs, said in an interview with Reuters.

Lawmakers plan to hold a hearing on Tuesday to grill administration officials on the F-16 program with Pakistan and its use in counterterrorism operations against al Qaeda and Taliban extremists in the border areas with Afghanistan.

Analysts say the F-16, built by Lockheed Martin Corp, and other big-ticket military items have in the past been viewed by Islamabad as weapons to help Pakistan counter its rival, India.

In July, two senior Democratic lawmakers asked the administration not to use the $226.5 million to refurbish the the F-16s. They said they feared the plan diverted cash from more urgent counterterrorism equipment like helicopters and night-vision goggles.

*But Boucher said the F-16s also had been used for counterterrorism missions in hundreds of sorties targeting militants in the tribal areas in recent months.

The F-16 upgrade was badly needed, he said, and would give Pakistan with a more effective counter-terrorism tool, enabling forces to work at night and improve precision-strike capability.*

*He also said the money would come from areas, such as maritime patrol programs, that were not as urgently needed as the fighter upgrades.*

*"I think it's an uphill climb but we don't shy away from uphill climbs," Boucher said of the State Department's effort to convince Congress to allow it to shift the funds to the Pakistani F-16 program.*

*PAYMENT FOR LOCKHEED*

*Over the summer, the Bush administration made a payment "in the $100 million range" to Lockheed after it became clear the firm would otherwise fire workers involved in the project, he said.*

The *next payment is due in October* and the administration is working with Congress to try to resolve the issue by the end of this month, Boucher said. *"We don't want to go ahead without some kind of understanding on the part of Congress."*

A Congressional aide, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said appropriating subcommittees in Congress were entitled to request a "hold" on reprogramming funds and this had been done on the F-16 upgrades. However, he said this was not legally binding.

It was "atypical" for a government agency to go ahead with redirecting money over the objections of the chair of the relevant committees in Congress, the aide said.

U.S. officials have long been frustrated at what they view as Pakistan's failure to do enough to combat militants along its border with Afghanistan. The United States has some 33,000 troops in Afghanistan, many of whom are fighting the Taliban insurgency. (Editing by Chris Wilson)


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## ejaz007

BATMAN said:


> Mirrage is not a replacement for F-16.
> By the time assembly line of mirage may be operational in Pakistan, JF-17 will be way advance and in mass production.
> I think we have no option left other than JF-17 and J-10 and with decent radar and BVR they will do just fine in their respective roles.
> We need to focus more on radar and BVR missile from any source incl. France.



I am not talking about replacing F-16 with Mirage 2000. I am talking about a qualitative improvement by replacing older ROSE II and III Mirages and F-7 PG with perhaps Mirage 2000. Another reason is that Mirage 2000 would be cheaper yet better than existing PAF platforms. So this is what I presume at the moment to be the better option. Instead of going for 18-20 Rafael we should try 36 Mirage 2000. Also remember O&M cost of PAF will also reduce as a result.


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## ejaz007

*U.S. State Dept. convinces congress to upgrade Pak F16s fund *
Updated at: 0200 PST, Tuesday, September 16, 2008 


WASHINGTON: Despite recent territorial tensions with Pakistan, the Bush administration is prepared to fight an uphill battle with Congress over the proposed use of counterterrorism funds to upgrade Pakistan's F-16 fighters today. The State Department believes it has the authority to implement. 

However, assistant secretary for South and Central Asian Affairs Richard Boucher said the Department was trying to work it out with Congress.

Lawmakers plan to hold a hearing today to grill administration officials on the suitability of F-16's in Pakistani counterterrorism operations amidst fears that Pakistan may want the upgrades to counter India.

*Boucher justified the proposed shift in funding by citing the hundreds of sorties flown in recent months that had targeted militants in the tribal areas.* 

U.S. State Dept. convinces congress to upgrade Pak F16s fund


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## Jliu

IceCold said:


> We are not getting F-16s. This is a reality that Pakistanis need to see before we waste any more time.



Putting on my defence professional hat I am only going to say that it is very probable (~75&#37 that the PAF is going to recieve more than just 18 F-16 given the sensitivity of the purchases under discussion which also involve MLU airframes from third parties.



> Now coming back to the imbalance, if we go by what you said about the quantitative imbalance, then i can argue with the same thing that how only 18 would be any different.



The disparity I have mentioned is due to cost and life cycle costs. Look up the figures for the per/unit cost of an F-16 compared with the figures bandied around by Dassault as per ROKAF and RSAF F-X competitions. The only point I have to make is that when faced by an adversary with an overwhelming quantitative advantage every platform (and missile) counts. Every systems analysis ever conducted for the PAF has said precisely the same thing. If even used Gripen A/B were ruled out by PAF brass the Rafale will (barring heavy kickbacks to mentioned brass) will not eventuate.



> One its a modern platform which will see alot of future development including an AESA radar



Just because a platform has an AESA radar on it *does not* mean it automatically is 'superior' to one that does not-given the NC nature of the next air battle. War is NOT some kind of noble one-on-one duel as many on this forum see it. It's more of a mugging with the numbers making the difference as I have repeatedly mentioned in my posts. The Rafale does not currently have an AESA radar and will not for the next 5 years at least unless a major buyer is found (40+ airframes) to justify R&D for the proposed RBE mk-2. Morever compare the stated performance of output (kW) and ES antenna length of the RF modules of the proposed AESA above to the APG-78 on the SHornet-in essence Dassault would be developing a "dead-on-arrival" radar unit inferior to what's out there in the market.



> while the F-16s have seen its glory days and no matter what toys they put into it, the fact remains the same that the airframe is on the verge of its life span.



Utter rubbish. New build and MLU Falcons in terms of design features are far superior to say the J-10 if we use your line of argument. In this era of missile-centric combat any aircraft will be a burning heap of scrap if hit by a missile and the F-16/AMRAAM combination is as lethal as any out there. You also miss the F-16's significance in the PAF force structure as the Falcon is the only asset capable of carrying out precise strike+deep interdiction roles on major Indian facilities w/ the Sniper/JDAM combination. You only have to ask PAF personnel why they prefer the Falcon as well as the range of ordnance/flexibility available to the PAF. 



> Second, France is a much much more reliable supplier then US and unlike F-16s, rafales will not come with strings attached to them.



The only strings attached is "buy French" with ordnance, maintenance and upkeep. It doesn't come cheap and Meteor AAMs are NOT guaranteed simply because if any one of five patners object then no sale will be forthcoming. The PAF simply will not take this sort of risk both with funds and inventory.



> Also we will have the option to sell our F-16s. That will too raise money to atleast induct one more squardon of rafale after the intial one.



Please, don't make me laugh. There is no chance on this Earth the US Gov will allow Pakistan to sell F-16s to a third party-you may only sell back to the US and I don't doubt for an instant you will even recieve 1/3 of the resale value (hint: the DSCA website lists a certain resale quote for RMAF F-18C/D trade-ins for the SHornet). And then have a look at the prices being quoted for the Singaporean bid. 



> Even with the JFs we need another platform, a bigger, better platform. That is why F-16s were procured at the first place.



Thats your opinion. Your Air Marshal certainly does not think so and neither do I.


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## Nomi929

ejaz007 said:


> Closing of assembly line does not mean the product can not be produced again. Remember Rafael has not bagged reasonable order from any airforce. So if say PAF goes for about 30 Mirage 2000-9 then I am sure French would be more than happy to reopen production line.
> 
> Dassault's web site still lists Mirage 2000. This means they have not entirely thrown out the fighter.



Nope!

Thats not Gonna Happen.

India was first Looking towards Mirage 2000-9 for their 120+ MRCA Planes tender.

But France regardless of such huge order, only presented Rafale!


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## TOPGUN

What other aircraft could become a option which is a non chinesse orgin??


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## Myth_buster_1

Jliu said:


> Putting on my defence professional hat I am only going to say that it is very probable (~75%) that the PAF is going to recieve more than just 18 F-16 given the sensitivity of the purchases under discussion which also involve MLU airframes from third parties.
> 
> New build and MLU Falcons in terms of design features are far superior to say the J-10 if we use your line of argument. In this era of missile-centric combat any aircraft will be a burning heap of scrap if hit by a missile and the *F-16/AMRAAM combination is as lethal as any out there.* You also miss the F-16's significance in the PAF force structure as the Falcon is the only asset capable of carrying out *precise strike+deep interdiction roles on major Indian facilities w/ the Sniper/JDAM combination*. You only have to ask PAF personnel why they prefer the Falcon as well as the range of ordnance/flexibility available to the PAF.
> 
> Thats your opinion. Your Air Marshal certainly does not think so and neither do I.



Jliu i agree with most part of your post.. their is no dough that when upgraded, these F-16s will be turned into one of the most lethal fighters with AMRAAM and ERIEYE combination in sub-continent...
technical aspect.. F-16 is a great deal but political point of view for pakistan.. i think some other options would be better and PAF does have a back up plan as ACM said earlier that they will not be surprised and are pretty much prepared for other options in case of no f-16 deal approval by the congress.. and considering barrak osama's harsh statements that pakistan is preparing for war with india and if elected then its 100% sure that their is no f-16s for pakistan.
pakistani version of J-10 wont be as basic as Chinese one.. its a improved version with 10-15+ million dollars worth of more improvement along with french avioncis and radar~.. so we cant judge now its capabilities when they are not even operational yet.. 
i think one of the back up plans for PAF would be to increase the number of JF-17 or FC-20 with more French input or go with 2004 plan for "Gripens?"..


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## TOPGUN

Yes why cant we try for the grippen again i dont understand it now we have even bought Sweden 's Saab aircraft we must try i think!! we are our of options!!


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## Myth_buster_1

TOPGUN said:


> Yes why cant we try for the grippen again i dont understand it now we have even bought Sweden Saab aircraft we must try i think!! we are out of options!!



budget and politics are the main problem .. other then that.. PAF was very well prepared to take on Gripens..

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## TOPGUN

Thx 23 march i do hope we go for it !


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## IceCold

Jliu said:


> Putting on my defence professional hat I am only going to say that it is very probable (~75%) that the PAF is going to recieve more than just 18 F-16 given the sensitivity of the purchases under discussion which also involve MLU airframes from third parties.



Hmmm well i am certainly not aware of it and perhaps would not argue over it since the line of field you are in, obviously you know more then whats on the paper. By the way wasnt your line of field Navy





> Just because a platform has an AESA radar on it *does not* mean it automatically is 'superior' to one that does not-given the NC nature of the next air battle. War is NOT some kind of noble one-on-one duel as many on this forum see it. It's more of a mugging with the numbers making the difference as I have repeatedly mentioned in my posts. The Rafale does not currently have an AESA radar and will not for the next 5 years at least unless a major buyer is found (40+ airframes) to justify R&D for the proposed RBE mk-2. Morever compare the stated performance of output (kW) and ES antenna length of the RF modules of the proposed AESA above to the APG-78 on the SHornet-in essence Dassault would be developing a "dead-on-arrival" radar unit inferior to what's out there in the market.




I agree with the one on one duel thing however my point was solely related to an AESA radar. The importance of AESA radar in PAF is seen by the mere fact that PAF wants an AESA radar on the JF-17 which as some suggests a radar worth 5 million over a jet that cost 15 million. Point is that the way you ruled out its importance in air to air combact is simply beyond my understanding. While i would agree that in present era of missile centric warfare any jet even the F-22 hit by a missile would turn into a ball of fire, but what about the first lock on and fire probability and how decisive will this prove to be the fact who locks on first. India has made an AESA radar must in their tender for MRCA.




> Utter rubbish. New build and MLU Falcons in terms of design features are far superior to say the J-10 if we use your line of argument. In this era of missile-centric combat any aircraft will be a burning heap of scrap if hit by a missile and the F-16/AMRAAM combination is as lethal as any out there. You also miss the F-16's significance in the PAF force structure as the Falcon is the only asset capable of carrying out precise strike+deep interdiction roles on major Indian facilities w/ the Sniper/JDAM combination. You only have to ask PAF personnel why they prefer the Falcon as well as the range of ordnance/flexibility available to the PAF.



I havent doubted the fact that the F-16s are not superior then the J-10 but we are not comparing it with the J-10 here. My point was that more then three decades have been passed since F-16s first roled out. Now i know and can understand the fact that alot has been changed, upgraded and modified in it but how exactly is it comparable to lets say the EF. Come on days of the F-16 are done, it wont see any more changes in it(upgrades). Even the production line was about to end untill Pakistan and a few nations like turkey decided to but it and hence the assembly line kept alive to meet the order.





> The only strings attached is "buy French" with ordnance, maintenance and upkeep. It doesn't come cheap and Meteor AAMs are NOT guaranteed simply because if any one of five patners object then no sale will be forthcoming. The PAF simply will not take this sort of risk both with funds and inventory.



The happening of an objection for the sale of meteor is probally very low as compared to something of the US orgin. Even if the meteor is not available, there are other options available and it wont stop the jets from flying unlike in the case of US where the essentialy need spare parts to keep the birds alive are held back, thats not going to happen in case of french. 





> Please, don't make me laugh. There is no chance on this Earth the US Gov will allow Pakistan to sell F-16s to a third party-you may only sell back to the US and I don't doubt for an instant you will even recieve 1/3 of the resale value (hint: the DSCA website lists a certain resale quote for RMAF F-18C/D trade-ins for the SHornet). And then have a look at the prices being quoted for the Singaporean bid.



Well i just presented the idea, and the reason behind the idea was that Nations sell F-16s to other nations with the premission of the US. Pakistan too was looking for F-16s from third parties. Obviously they wont come for free. PAF bought mirages from australia. We too can do the same with obviously US premission in this regard. 





> Thats your opinion. Your Air Marshal certainly does not think so and neither do I.



Thats not my opinion. It has been stated by the ACM himself previously that we need a fighter that could possibly carry more weapons load. JF-17 for now is a point defence fighter. Otherwise why would we be looking for the J-10s if JF-17 could perform all roles?


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## IceCold

23march said:


> i think one of the back up plans for PAF would be to increase the number of JF-17 or FC-20 with more French input or *go with 2004 plan for "Gripens*?"..



Wasnt Pakistan refused over Gripen even though Musharraf personally requested for it.


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## Myth_buster_1

IceCold said:


> Wasnt Pakistan refused over Gripen even though Musharraf personally requested for it.



that was because i think the sweeds did not support pakistani military "dictatorship".. lol .. even though mush was nothing like it..


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## araz

23march said:


> that was because i think the sweeds did not support pakistani military "dictatorship".. lol .. even though mush was nothing like it..



gripen was denied to PAF because it is an offensive weapon and Swedes have a policy of not selling arms in theatres of conflict.This must have obviously changed since they have decided to try their luck with the indian tender
it also has an American engine that makes it a liabiltiy for PAF if we are imbroiled in a controversy with the Americans.
Personally i have never seen the point of buying Gripen when we are developing a plane with similar capability(Thunder). Secondly te cost of inducting Gripen will be a lot more than inducting F16s.
Araz

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## Owais

araz said:


> Personally i have never seen the point of buying Gripen when we are developing a plane with similar capability(Thunder). Secondly te cost of inducting Gripen will be a lot more than inducting F16s.
> Araz



you are right araz but JF17 is still learning to fly where as gripen is a matured and very advance platform. there are many things yet to be decided in thunder like radar, engine, hardpoints, composites etc


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## Neo

*U.S. lawmakers question Pakistan funds ​*
WASHINGTON (AP)  U.S. lawmakers on Tuesday promised close scrutiny of a Bush administration request to use hundreds of millions of dollars in anti-terrorism aid to upgrade Pakistan's aging fleet of U.S.-made F-16 fighter planes.

The Bush administration argues that the upgraded F-16s will allow Pakistan to better conduct precision attacks on extremists. But the planes have not traditionally been used in anti-terrorism operations, and Pakistan sees them as an asset in its arms race against rival India.

Rep. Gary Ackerman, Democratic chair of the House of Representatives Foreign Affairs Subcommittee on South Asia, suggested that the planes were more important as a symbol in Pakistan's competition with India than in helping fight extremists using parts of Pakistan as a safe haven to attack American troops in neighboring Afghanistan.

"Let's be grown-up about this. Do you think the average Pakistani thinks the symbolism has something to do with fighting terrorism or confronting India?" he asked at a hearing. "I think we are trying to build the confidence of an ally that is not so allied with us sometimes."

*Lawmakers also expressed concern about the comments of a Pakistan army spokesman who said the military has ordered its forces to open fire if U.S. troops launch another air or ground raid across the Afghan border. Those orders follow a highly unusual Sept. 3 ground attack by U.S. commandos that raised tensions between the two allies.*

*Donald Camp, deputy assistant secretary of state for South Asian affairs, said the F-16s would not upset the balance of power in the region, where Hindu-majority India and Muslim Pakistan have fought three wars since independence from Britain in 1947.*

*Camp said the F-16s are a point of pride for Pakistan and an important part of the U.S.-Pakistan relationship. The message the U.S. wants to send to Pakistan is, "We are there for the long-term," he said.*

Pakistan's military has won American praise for a recent offensive against militants. But many in Washington say Pakistan has not done enough with the billions in aid the U.S. has provided to fight terrorists.

Republican Rep. Ed Royce said Congress should closely study the request. Pakistan, he said, had an "unconscionable" proliferation record, a reference to Abdul Qadeer Khan, Pakistan's nuclear architect, who leaked atomic secrets to countries including Iran and Libya.

In July, the Bush administration asked for about $226 million of proposed military equipment aid for Pakistan's anti-terrorism programs be used to upgrade the F-16s. Democratic lawmakers requested a hold on the money, saying it could be better used for more effective counterterrorism tools like helicopters, missiles and night-vision goggles.

*Congress has released $116 million of the $226 million. The administration is now asking for the remaining $110 million, as well as up to $142 million in the future, Camp said.*


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## Munir

I would move to other high tech fighterjet. F16 is a nail in the coffin for Pakistan. It is raised often for anti pak propaganda. It will force paf to have alternatives just in case. I would have taken cash and bought anything else...


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## BATMAN

Munir said:


> I would have taken cash and bought anything else...


Me too.... but we know decision was not wrong and was made on merit and in a good faith.
Im sure risks were considered but it was not expected that anti Pakistan lobby will become so aggressive immediately after replacing P.Musharraf.


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## fatman17

Defeating al-Qaeda's Air Force: Pakistan's F-16 Program in the Fight Against Terrorism

Donald Camp, Principal Deputy Assistant Secretary for South and 

Statement Before the U.S. House of Representatives Foreign Affairs Subcommittee on South Asia 

Washington, DC 

September 16, 2008 

Chairman Ackerman, Members of the Subcommittee, thank you for inviting me to address you today on Pakistan&#8217;s F-16 program. 

On February 18 of this year, the Pakistani people went to the polls and elected moderate leaders who are working to set a stable, prosperous, democratic path for Pakistan into the future. The journey along this path is going to be a difficult one as Pakistan faces increasing economic challenges and the serious threat of growing instability in the border regions. The United States wants to see this new government succeed, not only because it represents the desires of the Pakistani people but because we believe that a moderate government with a democratic mandate is the most effective partner in the fight against terrorists and violent extremism. 

During Prime Minister Gillani&#8217;s visit to Washington in late July, you saw the United States and Pakistan committed to maintaining and strengthening our broad-based partnership, and the United States committed to steps that can help Pakistan deal with economic problems and increase its effectiveness in countering the extremist threat. The Administration&#8217;s request to re-direct Foreign Military 

Financing in 2008 and beyond to support F-16 Mid-Life Updates speaks directly to these two commitments. Updates to Pakistan&#8217;s F-16s will make these aircraft far more effective against terrorist targets, while helping with these payments will provide the newly-elected Pakistani government valuable fiscal flexibility as they deal with rising food and fuel prices. 

Mr. Chairman, my colleagues and I represent the Administration&#8217;s commitment to the F-16 program and we ask for your support to approve the Administration&#8217;s request to re-direct the remaining $110 million in 2008 Foreign 

Military Financing for the Mid-Life Update and an additional $142 million in the future. The new Government of Pakistan stands behind these requests and has committed to assume subsequent payments with national funds beginning in December 2009. 

F-16s Defined U.S.-Pakistan Engagement 

The sale of F-16s to Pakistan became a transformative element of the U.S.- Pakistan bilateral relationship over 20 years ago, and this historical context is important to understand and remember as we determine how to handle the questions of F-16 financing today. Not only a component of Pakistan&#8217;s national defense, the F-16 has become an iconic symbol of our bilateral relationship and our commitment to each other. 

In the early 1980s, the U.S. government initially agreed to sell Pakistan 111 F-16 aircraft. This decision was influenced by our close partnership with Pakistan during the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. By October 1990, however, Pressler sanctions were imposed when President (George Herbert Walker) Bush was unable to certify that Pakistan was not developing a nuclear weapon. The Pressler sanctions led to a decade-long suspension of security assistance to Pakistan and a deficit of trust between our two countries that we are still working to overcome. The suspension of our security assistance programs required under Pressler meant the suspension and eventual cancellation of an additional sale of F-16 aircraft that would have augmented the 40 F-16s Pakistan purchased in 1982. That cancellation has been viewed as a symbol of the collapse of our relationship during the 1990s, a period which remains highly emotional for many Pakistanis. The suspension of our security assistance also precluded Pakistani military officers from attending U.S. military schools, which has produced nearly a generation of Pakistani military officers who have not traveled to the United States to learn sideby- side with American officers. 

September 11 Re-defined Our Relationship 

As you know, Mr. Chairman, the September 11, 2001 attacks resulted in a profound shift in U.S. policy towards South and Central Asia. The terrorist attacks on our homeland led to a strategic choice by the Government of Pakistan to support U.S. efforts to remove the Taliban regime from power in Afghanistan. Pakistan&#8217;s decision gave us the support of a critical neighbor, enabled us to undertake Operation Enduring Freedom and has helped to sustain coalition operations over the last seven years, with Pakistan&#8217;s road networks and port facilities serving as the critical supply line for our military forces in Afghanistan. - 3 - 

In return, after September 11th, the Administration committed to reinvigorating the security relationship between our two countries. This led to Pakistan&#8217;s designation as a Major Non-NATO Ally in 2004 and the President&#8217;s commitment to provide Pakistan a $3 billion assistance package over five years, evenly divided between security and development. Soon after, the Administration sought to overturn decades of bitterness by agreeing to sell Pakistan a new generation of F-16s and providing it with the ability to upgrade its existing fleet. This agreement was formally codified in September 2006 when Pakistan signed three separate Letters of Offer and Acceptance (LOA) that constitute the core of Pakistan&#8217;s F-16 program. Prior to signing the Letters of Offer and Acceptance, the Administration notified Congress that the sale would serve to stabilize the conventional military balance in South Asia, provide Pakistan the ability to conduct Close Air Support in ongoing operations in the Global War on Terror and restore Pakistan&#8217;s confidence in the enduring nature of our relationship with them. 

The Purchase 

Pakistan had originally planned a total purchase valued at $5.1 billion, almost all of it in national funds. The 2005 Kashmir earthquake and subsequent financial constraints caused Pakistan to reduce the number of new planes it wanted to purchase from 36 to 18, which lowered the overall value of the deal to approximately $3.1 billion. The 18 new planes are valued at $1.4 billion, with the remainder of the $3.1 billion dedicated to associated munitions (valued at approximately $641 million) and 46 Mid-Life Update (MLU) kits for Pakistan's existing F-16 fleet (estimated to cost $891 million). Additionally, the United States has provided Pakistan with 14 F-16s designated as Excess Defense Articles (EDA). 

Pakistan will use reprogrammed funds to purchase the Mid- Life Update kits to upgrade the Excess Defense Article F-16s delivered over the last two and a half years. The Mid-Life Update case was written and agreed upon by the U.S. and Pakistan as a "mixed funding" case, allowing Pakistan to use $108.395 million in FY 2006 FMF credits on the overall $891 million case. Pakistan&#8217;s subsequent request to use additional Foreign Military Financing has led us to the current request to re-direct funds in FY 2008 and beyond. The Pakistanis have requested that the Administration allow it to use a portion of its FY 2008 and FY 2009 Foreign Military Financing Presidential commitment, totaling $368M, for the Mid-Life Update program. They have also - 4 - committed to making all additional payments beyond this request with national funds. Even with this Pakistani request, over 83&#37; of the F-16 program will have been funded through Pakistani national funds. It is important to note that Pakistan has a consistent payment record on the three other Foreign Military Sales cases associated with this sale and historically on all other Foreign Military Sales cases. 

F-16s and the War on Terror 

F-16s provide a critical counterterrorism capability to Pakistan and the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has recently made extensive use of its aging F-16 fleet to support Pakistan Army operations in the Swat Valley and in the Bajaur Agency of the Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA). According to information furnished to us by the Pakistan Embassy in Washington, the PAF flew 93 sorties in August 2008 in operations against the Taliban. However, their current model F-16 can be used for close air support missions only in daylight and good visibility. They cannot be employed at night, a fact not lost on the Taliban and other extremist groups being targeted. 

U.S. F-16s use day-night, all weather, air-dropped precision-guided munitions to great effect in Iraq; and we believe Pakistan should be able to use this capability to achieve our shared goals in countering militants along its western border. The new and enhanced F-16s will provide Pakistan the ability to attack fleeing targets with precision during all weather conditions. The Mid-Life Update will enable the Pakistan Air Force to use an advanced targeting pod that provides the ability to generate ground position data that can then be used to direct guided munitions to a target. In addition, the Mid-Life Update comes with an advanced communications system that enables real time communication with ground forces &#8211; a critical capability for Close Air Support missions. Combined, these systems provide Pakistan&#8217;s Air Force with the technological capability to conduct precision close air strikes against Al Qaeda, Taliban, and associated terrorist targets in the FATA, as well as provide non-traditional Intelligence Surveillance and Reconnaissance (NTISR), a critical enabler in a counterinsurgency campaign. The Pakistan Air Force will receive considerable training associated with the F-16 cases including specific F-16 pilot and maintenance training for their F-16 technicians. We are currently finalizing a comprehensive training plan with us that will include Close Air Support, Combat Search and Rescue, aerial refueling, and night flying operations. This will also mean an improved ability to limit civilian casualties, which will in turn lead to greater willingness on the part of the Pakistani military to employ the F-16s in a counter-terrorism role. 

It is also important to note that Pakistan&#8217;s request to use Foreign Military Financing for the Mid-Life Update program will not detract from investments in other equipment that is being employed in direct support of ongoing military operations in the Tribal Areas. Our original congressional notification for the use of $247 million of Pakistan&#8217;s Foreign Military Financing allocation stated that Pakistan would use this assistance to finance the refurbishment of Pakistan Navy P-3C aircraft, to purchase Pakistan Air Force Command and Control articles and services, tactical radios for Pakistan&#8217;s Army, TOW missiles and to modernize and maintain Pakistan&#8217;s Cobra helicopters. Twenty million dollars of the $247 million will still be used to purchase TOW missiles and tactical radios. In addition, the Cobra helicopters, for which there are signed Letters of Offer and Acceptance, will be financed through Pakistan&#8217;s remaining FY 2008 Foreign Military Financing allocation of $50.57 million, which will be released pending expiration of the congressional notification period. 

Conclusion 

Mr. Chairman, I would like to emphasize the strategic importance of Pakistan to U.S. interests, not just regionally, but globally. While the F-16 plays an important role in Pakistan&#8217;s efforts to defeat extremism, it also has achieved strategic importance as a symbolic barometer of the overall state of our relationship and trust between our militaries. Given the tangible and symbolic importance of Pakistan&#8217;s F-16 program we request Congressional support to redirect the remaining $110 million in Foreign Military Financing in Fiscal Year 2008 and up to $142 million in the future. I thank you for this opportunity to appear before this Committee. My colleagues and I are happy to respond to your questions at this point. Thank you. 

source: Defeating al-Qaeda's Air Force: Pakistan's F-16 Program in the Fight Against Terrorism

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## Jliu

IceCold said:


> Hmmm well i am certainly not aware of it and perhaps would not argue over it since the line of field you are in, obviously you know more then whats on the paper. By the way wasnt your line of field Navy



Navy background yes.



> I agree with the one on one duel thing however my point was solely related to an AESA radar. The importance of AESA radar in PAF is seen by the mere fact that PAF wants an AESA radar on the JF-17 which as some suggests a radar worth 5 million over a jet that cost 15 million.



I agree that sounds fishy unless PAF brass have decided on one JF-17 acting as "controller" in illuminating incoming hostiles with active radar. Unfortunately that same controller will be missile bait but gives all other fighters the chance to loose off whatever AAM the JF-17 is going to be equipped with.



> Point is that the way you ruled out its importance in air to air combact is simply beyond my understanding. While i would agree that in present era of missile centric warfare any jet even the F-22 hit by a missile would turn into a ball of fire, but what about the first lock on and fire probability and how decisive will this prove to be the fact who locks on first. India has made an AESA radar must in their tender for MRCA.



I'm making the point that AESA radars should be compared by output, scan rate and LPI. All detection+lock on ratios above are subject to a myriad of other factors on the day. AESA does not equal good. Some AESAs have been around since the 90's and are actually inferior to contemporary PESA beam formed arrays with the M-X "AESA" on the JASDF F-2 coming to mind immediately. An expensive AESA is only critical on a platform that is going to be survivable-assuming the size of the array can even fit into the nose cone of the fighter. As you've said earlier it is rather expensive and there is only one logical answer which I have outlined. As for the Indians they would like AESA radars on ALL 126-200 MRCA because a) they can afford it via 100% offsets and b) all platforms under consideration are HVA in the strike role and thus not expendable "cannon fodder" in the subclass of the JF-17 and Mig-21M. 



> I havent doubted the fact that the F-16s are not superior then the J-10 but we are not comparing it with the J-10 here. My point was that more then three decades have been passed since F-16s first roled out. Now i know and can understand the fact that alot has been changed, upgraded and modified in it but how exactly is it comparable to lets say the EF. Come on days of the F-16 are done, it wont see any more changes in it(upgrades). Even the production line was about to end untill Pakistan and a few nations like turkey decided to but it and hence the assembly line kept alive to meet the order.



Ever read about the Desert Falcons with the UAE and exactly WHY the UAE selected the Block 60 of all things as a *"multirole fighter with an emphasis on air superiority operations to the range of 1000km"* over other contenders such as the EF and Rafale?
It'll trump a EF-2000/Rafale anyday by sheer virtue of its integrated sensor suite and weapons package. That said, the Block 52+ for the PAF is the second most lethal variant of the Falcon out there and one league ahead in weapons and systems fit of the J-10. For all the J-10's supposed maneuverability, assuming its in the magnitude of ~4.5-6G can it evade a 9G AMRAAM -C5 inbound at +/-M.5? 

Its not about the airframe anymore, sensors/missiles rule the day-it explains why the Mig-21s are still flying and the JF-17 even being inducted.



> The happening of an objection for the sale of meteor is probally very low as compared to something of the US orgin. Even if the meteor is not available, there are other options available and it wont stop the jets from flying unlike in the case of US where the essentialy need spare parts to keep the birds alive are held back, thats not going to happen in case of french.



Without the Meteor the Rafale will be at a severe disadvatange vs any contemporary in any scenario given the fact potential adversaries enjoy the use of the R-77 which outranges the MICA/IR MICA and which Meteor was designed to outrange given the lack of EU expertise in kinetic VLO technology. We'll wait and see as to future sales even though the PAF miraculously recieving 500 120C-5s. Don't say America isn't nice to you with those aid packages (begun in 2001) because the Europeans always insist you pay up front with cash.



> Thats not my opinion. It has been stated by the ACM himself previously that we need a fighter that could possibly carry more weapons load. JF-17 for now is a point defence fighter. Otherwise why would we be looking for the J-10s if JF-17 could perform all roles?



More load= new Falcon variants or J-10s etc. for the strike role. Admittedly the Rafale is one heck of great A2G platform w/AASM/GBU-12+Damocles TPod and would greatly boost the PAF's strike capabilities but given the cost and integration into the future force structure it seems unlikely in addition to being at somewhat of a disadvantage in A2A against any of the MRCA contestants and the MKI. Yet playing with figures if the PAF drop procurement of the J-10, slashes BM R&D funds and caps Al-Khalid numbers then enough should be scraped together if combined in a "mega" French arms package to procure 24-40 Rafale and 2-3 Scorpene/Marlin to boot. Its all about opportunity cost and balancing priorities.

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## was

US officials call F-16s component of Pakistan&#8217;s national defence

By Khalid Hasan

WASHINGTON: United States administration officials, refusing to wilt under hostile questioning from a number of congressmen over what the latter projected as a sweetheart F-16 deal with Pakistan, described the aircraft as a &#8220;transformative element&#8221; in US-Pakistan relations and a &#8220;component of Pakistan&#8217;s national defence&#8221;.
The officials, including Donald Camp of the State Department&#8217;s South Asia Bureau and Vice Admiral Jeffrey Wieringa of the Defence Security Agency, were testifying before a House Foreign Affairs Subcommittee hearing presided over by Rep Gary L Ackerman, who has a long record of being overly and often unfairly critical of Pakistan.
Ackerman&#8217;s main thrust at the hearing lay in his assertion that the US was using American tax-payer&#8217;s money to bail out Pakistan by diverting money from Foreign Military Fund credits to enable Islamabad pay the instalments due on F-16 upgrades.
Ackerman was unabashedly sarcastic on several occasions. Even the title of the hearing &#8216;Defeating Al Qaeda&#8217;s air force: Pakistan&#8217;s F-16 programme in the fight against terror&#8217; reeked of sarcasm.
The veteran legislator also called Pakistan as &#8220;the world&#8217;s leading sub-prime borrower&#8221;, namely someone who borrows without the ability to repay. He also made fun of Pakistan&#8217;s economic vulnerability. Ackerman also claimed that there were videos of Pakistanis shooting at Americans, an assertion that took most present at the hearing by surprise because such a claim had not been heard being made before. Ackerman mocked Camp for what he implied was the State Department official&#8217;s ignorance about the alleged videos.
Camp told the congressmen that Pakistan has requested that the administration allow it to use a portion of its 2008 and 2009 FMF commitment, totalling $368 million for the midlife F-16 update programme. Pakistan had committed that it will make all additional payments beyond this request from its national funds. Even with the Pakistani request, Camp emphasised, over 83 percent of the F-16 programme will have been funded through Pakistani national funds. He told the subcommittee to note that Pakistan has a &#8220;consistent payment record on the three other foreign military sales cases&#8221;.
He stressed that F-16s provide a &#8216;critical counterterrorism capability&#8217; to Pakistan and the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) had recently made extensive use of its aging F-16 fleet to support Pakistan army operations in Swat Valley and in Bajaur Agency. The PAF had flown 93 sorties in August this year in anti-Taliban operations. He disagreed with Ackerman that Pakistan wanted the F-16s against India, while emphasising that the aircraft was part of Pakistan&#8217;s national defence.
Camp told the subcommittee, &#8220;I would like to emphasise the strategic importance of Pakistan to US interests, not just regionally, but globally. While the F-16 plays an important role in Pakistan&#8217;s efforts to defeat extremism, it also has achieved strategic importance as a symbolic barometer of the overall state of our relationship of trust between our two militaries. We ask for your support to approve the administration&#8217;s request to redirect the remaining $110 million in 2008 Foreign Military Financing for the Midlife Update and an additional $142 million in the future.&#8221;
The administration has already released $116 million for updates of the Pakistani F-16 A and B versions of the plane.
Camp, driving his point home, told the congressmen, &#8220;Updates to Pakistan&#8217;s F-16s will make these aircraft far more effective against terrorist targets, while helping with these payments will provide the newly-elected Pakistani government valuable fiscal flexibility as they deal with rising food and fuel prices.&#8221;
Camp said the Pakistan&#8217;s F-16s will not upset the regional arms balance. He also called the aircraft a &#8220;symbol of pride&#8221; for Pakistan.
Pakistan had originally planned a total purchase of F-16s valued at $5.1 billion principally from its national funds. The 2005 Kashmir earthquake and subsequent financial constraints made Pakistan reduce the number of new planes from 36 to 18, which lowered the overall value of the deal to $3.1 billion. The 18 new planes are valued at $1.4 billion, with the remainder of the $3.1 billion dedicated to associated munitions (valued at approximately $641 million) and 46 Midlife update kits for Pakistan&#8217;s existing F-16 fleet, estimated to cost $891 million.

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan


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## blain2

Jliu said:


> We'll wait and see as to future sales even though the PAF miraculously recieving 500 120C-5s. Don't say America isn't nice to you with those aid packages (begun in 2001) because the Europeans always insist you pay up front with cash.



Jliu sir,
America is only as nice to us as she would be to Koreans, Germans, Indians or anyone else who is willing to pay. The entire Weapons package of $650 million is being funded by Pakistan herself (trust me on this). This is in addition to the monies for the blk52 F-16s which we are funding on our own. The only thing that the US is giving in aid is the MLU package out of the aid through FMF for this work. Ironically, the same amount of money (as in the case of the weapons package) in the past was returned to us in the form of soybean oil after charging us parking fees for F-16s that were never given to us. Its a story unheard of in the realm of military sales. Even the USG were embarrassed over it in talks with our guys.



> It'll trump a EF-2000/Rafale anyday by sheer virtue of its integrated sensor suite and weapons package. That said, the Block 52+ for the PAF is the second most lethal variant of the Falcon out there and one league ahead in weapons and systems fit of the J-10. For all the J-10's supposed maneuverability, assuming its in the magnitude of ~4.5-6G can it evade a 9G AMRAAM -C5 inbound at +/-M.5?



This has a lot to do with what stage the blk60 vs Rafale were in when the UAEAF went all out for blk60. Rafale has still not been declared IOC with a true MR capability so its hard to say that Blk60's sensors and weapons suite is better than those of Rafale. The Spectra ECCM suite is a beauty in its own right and is right up there with the latest series of ALQ EW suites on offer on the F/A-18 SH and F-16 blk52/60 aircraft. What sucks for the French is that they have not been quick enough to get the Rafale to a demonstrated fully MR capability. No wonder they are the dark horses in every single evaluation for the next gen fighter acquisition.

Also the J-10 is definitely a +/- 9G airframe. There is no doubt in my mind about it. The PAF pilots who have flown it have some good things to say about the basic maneuverability and enhancement possibilities with the type. The venerable Chinese J-6 (F-6s) in the PAF service could do better than 5Gs and would give a tough time to the Viper during DACT. So I would not underestimate the J-10 in such rudimentary areas as the ability to withstand maneuvers in the 9G range. 



> Without the Meteor the Rafale will be at a severe disadvatange vs any contemporary in any scenario given the fact potential adversaries enjoy the use of the R-77 which outranges the MICA/IR MICA and which Meteor was designed to outrange given the lack of EU expertise in kinetic VLO technology.



I believe this is a theoretical assumption which does not take into account that the Rafale has the lowest RCS of all the non-stealth fighter types around. So the theoretical ranges of R-77 outgunning the Rafale may be debatable. Meteor definitely gives the French a much better standoff, first shot capability though. Also the assumption that Rafale would not be a capable deterrence against the IAF MKIs and MMRCA type is also an underestimation of the type. I know that PAF will never go for the Rafale given the current situation with it, however at least in the Indo-Pak context, the Rafale would be just as good if not better than the Blk52 F-16s. The benefit of blk-52s for us is that its a known quantity. We have operated the earlier types, have dealt with the US, know about the spares market, know that many other operators are out there etc. etc., know that in the future, the enhancements would be cheaper to integrate owing to so many other operators out there etc. Unfortunately the French cannot match many of these extraneous benefits.

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## Jliu

blain2 said:


> Jliu sir,
> America is only as nice to us as she would be to Koreans, Germans, Indians or anyone else who is willing to pay. The entire Weapons package of $650 million is being funded by Pakistan herself (trust me on this). This is in addition to the monies for the blk52 F-16s which we are funding on our own. The only thing that the US is giving in aid is the MLU package out of the aid through FMF for this work. Ironically, the same amount of money (as in the case of the weapons package) in the past was returned to us in the form of soybean oil after charging us parking fees for F-16s that were never given to us. Its a story unheard of in the realm of military sales. Even the USG were embarrassed over it in talks with our guys.



Sir, I will take your word on the details but it is highly significant that the US would release 500 AMRAAMs to Pakistan. This deal symbolises the strength of US-Pak ties and in relation to my previous post it demonstrates that the defence relationship remains important-comparitively more than Pak-EU defence relations.



> This has a lot to do with what stage the blk60 vs Rafale were in when the UAEAF went all out for blk60. Rafale has still not been declared IOC with a true MR capability so its hard to say that Blk60's sensors and weapons suite is better than those of Rafale.



Hope so mate otherwise we might have to find out the hard way. Personally I'd love to see a PAF Rafale v IAF MKI/MRCA bar Mig-35 duel but it'll probably never happen.



> The Spectra ECCM suite is a beauty in its own right and is right up there with the latest series of ALQ EW suites on offer on the F/A-18 SH and F-16 blk52/60 aircraft. What sucks for the French is that they have not been quick enough to get the Rafale to a demonstrated fully MR capability. No wonder they are the dark horses in every single evaluation for the next gen fighter acquisition.



They'll have to cut into procurement (numbers) to pay for block upgrades=bad
That sir, is a huge problem since the Rafale's role is primarily MR with a secondary strike emphasis ie. in design philosophical terms the weapons package was structured around the fighter as is the case with US designs. When the Rafale can't even achieve demonstratable baseline IOC for MR capability in its core competency that is rather unfortunate. Comparing the F-16 B60 and the Rafale in terms of EW, sensors etc yes I agree it is hard-because the Rafales in Afghanistan (the first observable deployment o/s) don't even have the full suite! That said, I find it hard to believe French systems that have just finished the Systems Development Life Cycle can compete with equivalent US offerings that are tested and true.



> Also the J-10 is definitely a +/- 9G airframe. There is no doubt in my mind about it. The PAF pilots who have flown it have some good things to say about the basic maneuverability and enhancement possibilities with the type. The venerable Chinese J-6 (F-6s) in the PAF service could do better than 5Gs and would give a tough time to the Viper during DACT. So I would not underestimate the J-10 in such rudimentary areas as the ability to withstand maneuvers in the 9G range.



My apologies if I've put down the wrong numbers. My point was that no fighter can outmaneuvere an inbound multi-seeker AAM w/ terminal lock once within the AAM's NEZ. 



> I believe this is a theoretical assumption which does not take into account that the Rafale has the lowest RCS of all the non-stealth fighter types around.



That in itself sir is debatable. As you are probably aware RCS values on the airframe vary, ie. the F-35 has an excellent frontal RCS against X-Band threats while the other aspects of the fuselage such as the tail are less protected and are somewhat vulnerable to other frequencies. The Rafale is no different as an airframe inherently less VLO than the Lightning II or in my opnion the EF-2000. All we precisely know about the Rafale is that: 

a) It incorporates "some" reduced RCS tech
b) Frontal RCS: About 1/10 of Mirage-2000 (Declared by Dassault in 1998)

That said, I've compiled a OSINT list of references about the Rafale:

RAFALE the Omnirole Fighter 

Width: 10.80 m 
Length: 15.27 m 
Height: 5.34 m 
Wing surface area: 45.70 m2 

Empty weight: 10 ton-class (1 ton = 907.18474 kg) by Dassault 
# Rafale C 9,400 kg 
# Rafale B 9,600 kg 
# Rafale M 9,900 kg 

MTOW: 24,500 kg - May be increased to 27,200 kg in the future 

Internal fuel: 4,500 kg - Rafale C / 4,240 kg - Rafale B 

External load: 7,500 kg - Standard / 9,500 kg+ - Upper Limit 

Number of pylons: 14 for Rafale B/C, and 13 for Rafale M. 5 of them are "Wet" pylons. 

====================================================== 

Maximum speed, high altitude: Mach 1.8+ 
Maximum speed, low altitude: 750kts 
Minimum speed: 115kts 
Approaching speed: 120kts 
With two MICA EM, two Magic-II, and one 1250L tank, the upper limit of speed for RAFALE B is Mach 1.6 

Road lenght for take off.......400~600 m 
Road lenght for landing...............450 m 
Climbing rate, sea level...............305 m/sec+ 
Operational flight height....16,750 ~ 18,400 m 


Combat radius: 
a. 1,100 km: Tanks * 3 with 4,300 L fuel + MICA AAM * 4 + 1,000 Ib bombs * 12 
b. 1,830 km: 1150L CFTs * 2 + Tanks * 3 with 5,700 L fuel + SCALP-EG * 2 + MICA *2 
c. 1,852 km: Tanks * 4 with 6,600 L fuel + MICA AAM*8 
d. CAP: more than 2 hours: Rafale M ; six AAMs and three 1,250L tanks, 100 nm, 185 km from the carrier 
e. Ferry range: 5,593 km (Maximum loand of internal and external tanks' fuel); 2,100 km (Internal fuel only) 

T/W ratio, sea-level (100&#37; internal fuel + eight MICA, M88-2 engine): 
1. Rafale C: 1.02 0.68 AB Max. Mil 
2. Rafale B: 1.01 0.67 AB Max. Mil 
3. Rafale M: 0.99 0.66 AB Max. Mil 

T/W ratio, sea-level (100% internal fuel + eight MICA, M88-3 engine, "post-2010"): 
1. Rafale C: 1.18 0.79 AB Max. Mil 
2. Rafale B: 1.16 0.77 AB Max. Mil 
3. Rafale M: 1.14 0.75 AB Max. Mil 

Wing-Load: (100% internal fuel + eight MICA): 
1. Rafale C: 328.2 kg / m2 
2. Rafale B: 331.5 kg / m2 
3. Rafale M: 339.1 kg / m2 

Flight Capability and Agility: 

1. (Air to surface configuration, with 600 Gal tanks * 3 + SCALP-EG * 2 + MICA *4) 
Upper limit for G-loading: 5.5G; Upper limit for rotating rate: 190 deg/sec; Upper limit of speed: Mach 1.04; Upper limit for AoA: 25 degrees. 

2. (Air to air configuration) 
Upper limit for G-loading: 9.0 ~ 11.0 G+; Upper limit for rotating rate: 290 deg/sec; Upper limit of speed: Mach 2.1; Upper limit for AoA: 32 degrees. 

3. G-loading: -3.2 to + 9.0 G ~ 11.0 G+ 

4. AoA: 32 degrees, normal upper limit by FBWs; more than 100 degrees without the restriction from FBWs. 

5. Maximum rate of turning: 
?30 deg/sec Instaneous 
24 deg/sec Persist 

6. With a clean Rafale, using afterburner, you can enter a turn at 500 kt. and 10,000 ft., pull the maximum 9g and still accelerate. Cornering speed for the Rafale is 360 kt. 

7. (Rafale of air to surface heavy configuration) I started a loop in military power and 450 kt. using a 4g pullup and speed at the top was 180 kt. The aircraft was responsive both in pitch and roll control, and I ended up some 600 ft. from the starting altitude. For the next maneuver, I selected afterburner, banked some 75 deg. and pulled to the maximum allowable gs of 5.5/6, in the heavy configuration. Starting at 420 kt., the speed was 360 kt. after completing a 360-deg. turn. 

8. Rafale M can bring back 4,804 kg load of fuel and weapons to land on the carrier. The upper limit for the bring-back of weapons is 3,444 kg in day, and 2,989 kg at night. 

Frontal RCS: About 1/10 of Mirage-2000 (Declared by Dassault in 1998)




> So the theoretical ranges of R-77 outgunning the Rafale may be debatable. Meteor definitely gives the French a much better standoff, first shot capability though.Also the assumption that Rafale would not be a capable deterrence against the IAF MKIs and MMRCA type is also an underestimation of the type.



Without the Meteor the Rafale is almost dead against a Su-30MKI due to lack of AMRAAM (and all other BVRAAM integration). MICA @50-60km doesn't cut it against a ~80km AA-12 when given the fact that the Bars-M the IAF possesses at cruising altitude ~15,000km has a claimed detection range of 300km (I instead rely on the tracking range as a true est-200km) v the "track 40 and engage 8" of the RBE-2 (unless the French cut numbers and/or win export comps they are never going to get an AESA version as the CAPTOR-E/CAESAR is out of the question). Based on those figures and extensive consultation I say the tracking range of the French radar is a paltry 60-100km. Now while the RG MICA is not to be underestimated I would hate to be on the recieving end of 3-4 AA-12s coming my way.



> I know that PAF will never go for the Rafale given the current situation with it, however at least in the Indo-Pak context, the Rafale would be just as good if not better than the Blk52 F-16s. The benefit of blk-52s for us is that its a known quantity. We have operated the earlier types, have dealt with the US, know about the spares market, know that many other operators are out there etc. etc., know that in the future, the enhancements would be cheaper to integrate owing to so many other operators out there etc. Unfortunately the French cannot match many of these extraneous benefits.



Agreed sir. The Gripen would be a far better bet if any other options for non Chinese/Pak fighters were to be pursued.

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## shehbazi2001

Jliu said:


> Navy background yes.
> 
> Without the Meteor the Rafale will be at a severe disadvatange vs any contemporary in any scenario given the fact potential adversaries enjoy the use of the R-77 which outranges the MICA/IR MICA and which Meteor was designed to outrange given the lack of EU expertise in kinetic VLO technology. We'll wait and see as to future sales even though the PAF miraculously recieving 500 120C-5s. Don't say America isn't nice to you with those aid packages (begun in 2001) because the Europeans always insist you pay up front with cash.
> 
> .



You are talking of longer range of AA-12 as compared to MICA but you are forgetting that AMRAAM also has a shorter kinematic range than AA-12 under similar conditions. AA-12 is bigger in size than both of these. 

The range of a BVR is not so simple calculation. The manufacturer MBDA gives a range of 60-70 km but Taiwan has destroyed a drone at 73km with MICA fired from Mirage 2000.

The range of BVR AAM strongly depends upon following factors,

1- Altitude of the launch aircraft
2- Speed of the launch aircraft
3- Altitude of the target aircraft
4- Direction of flight of target, whether closing in or moving away

The more you fly faster and higher, the more range will your BVR AAM have. More range is enjoyed if target is coming towards you, less when he is going away.

Another very important factor is A-pole, the distance from target aircraft when your BVR missile goes active. Thats very important. You can move away and do evasive maneuver only when your BVR goes active and see the target himself. Then you dont need to send updates to missile.

You should bring figures of A-pole on AMRAAM, MICA and Adder. A-pole is more important than kinematic range, which depends mostly on motor burn time.

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## blain2

Very valid posts by Jliu and Shehbazi. 



> Without the Meteor the Rafale is almost dead against a Su-30MKI due to lack of AMRAAM (and all other BVRAAM integration). MICA @50-60km doesn't cut it against a ~80km AA-12 when given the fact that the Bars-M the IAF possesses at cruising altitude ~15,000km has a claimed detection range of 300km (I instead rely on the tracking range as a true est-200km) v the "track 40 and engage 8" of the RBE-2 (unless the French cut numbers and/or win export comps they are never going to get an AESA version as the CAPTOR-E/CAESAR is out of the question). Based on those figures and extensive consultation I say the tracking range of the French radar is a paltry 60-100km. Now while the RG MICA is not to be underestimated I would hate to be on the recieving end of 3-4 AA-12s coming my way.



The one interesting aspect about all this BVR talk is that the theoretical ranges are totally blown out of the water when you take into consideration the appropriate WEZ (Weapons Engagement Zone) in air combat situations (with WEZ being the area around the target where the missile can reach and destroy the target). Theoretically speaking, the ranges being talked about are assumed to be straight on, face shot (with adversary moving into your direction) when most engagements involving aircraft with 360 degree MAWS/RWR sensors will not carry on the head on approach against another aircraft equipped with extended range BVRAAM. As soon as the aircraft starts maneuvering, this engagement zone changes drastically and most of the time ends up considerably reducing the range of effective employment. Add to this other points made by Shehbazi and you can see that a 50-60 km MICA/IR vs. a 70-80 km AIM-120C vs an AA-12 have no sure shot way of killing their targets at their theoretical max. ranges. While its less risk with AA-12 to have the ability to lose a few and run off, the western solutions (AIM-120 and MICA) provide pretty good range.

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## fatman17

blain2 said:


> Very valid posts by Jliu and Shehbazi.
> 
> 
> 
> The one interesting aspect about all this BVR talk is that the theoretical ranges are totally blown out of the water when you take into consideration the appropriate WEZ (Weapons Engagement Zone) in air combat situations (with WEZ being the area around the target where the missile can reach and destroy the target). Theoretically speaking, the ranges being talked about are assumed to be straight on, face shot (with adversary moving into your direction) when most engagements involving aircraft with 360 degree MAWS/RWR sensors will not carry on the head on approach against another aircraft equipped with extended range BVRAAM. As soon as the aircraft starts maneuvering, this engagement zone changes drastically and most of the time ends up considerably reducing the range of effective employment. Add to this other points made by Shehbazi and you can see that a 50-60 km MICA/IR vs. a 70-80 km AIM-120C vs an AA-12 have no sure shot way of killing their targets at their theoretical max. ranges. While its less risk with AA-12 to have the ability to lose a few and run off, the western solutions (AIM-120 and MICA) provide pretty good range.



so pls correct me (as i am a layman). so a BVR-less aircraft has a better chance of survival against a BVR equipped aircraft if it can (somehow - flying skills) get the adversary in a WVR situation?


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## blain2

fatman17 said:


> so pls correct me (as i am a layman). so a BVR-less aircraft has a better chance of survival against a BVR equipped aircraft if it can (somehow - flying skills) get the adversary in a WVR situation?



It depends. What if the BVR equipped aircraft is also equipped with good WVRAAMs and has good maneuverability? If the assumption is that a non-BVR capable aircraft has a better pilot, then yes the possibility is that he would be better in WVR as well and would be able to handle the BVR equipped aircraft in the WVR arena.

If you have no BVR, then you have to come up with some really smart tactics and play the numbers game against the BVR equipped adversary. Let him close in or you get some more distance in between.

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## shehbazi2001

I dont think that a fighter carrying BVR AAM will be at a disadvantage when it comes to close dogfight because every fighter carries WVR missiles too....those heat-seeking missiles are too much important and are the first weapon of aircraft nowadays alongwith gun........

Any air superiority fighter carries a gun, short range dogfight missiles like Sidewidner or AA-11 Archer and BVR AAM like ADDER or AMRAAM.

WVR missiles are more lethal than BVR missiles....and it seems that BVRs can pull less Gs as compared to WVR missiles but their advantage is more reach.

Another important thing, which is generally overlooked when we talk of BVR AAMs is their minimum range. Lets suppose a fighter could not use all of its BVRs and got into a close dogfight.......now he is carrying weight and cant use them due to minimum range limitations......

In this scenario, MICA seems to beat AMRAAM........AMRAAM can be used only when the target aircraft is at least 2km away, taken from following site, 

Raytheon AIM-120 AMRAAM

On the other side, MICA's minimum range is 500 meters. Therefore MICA is also a dogfight missile. If you run out of Sidewinders or Magics, switch on to your MICA.......

Also it seems to me that among all BVR AAMs including Derby, MICA is the only one using thrust vector control (TVC) imparting it high maneuverability, which is required near the end of engagement. But this could also be the reason of having a little overall range disadvantage wrt others.

I personally would prefer TVC if it improves the kill probability rather than having a few extra miles to go but not being able to pull more Gs or turn tighter.

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## Contrarian

Other missiles like Python 5 use advanced surface control's to achieve high maneuverability. TVC is not necessary.


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## Myth_buster_1

malaymishra123 said:


> Other missiles like Python 5 use advanced surface control's to achieve high maneuverability. TVC is not necessary.



Aim-9x, aim-132 asraam, A-darter, Pl-13 all use TVC with accurate 80-90&#176; off-boresight hit capability.. they dont have larger fins like python5...


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## shehbazi2001

malaymishra123 said:


> Other missiles like Python 5 use advanced surface control's to achieve high maneuverability. TVC is not necessary.




My topic was BVR AAMs. Pythons are WVR. I had mentioned that within BVR category, its MICA that has TVC.


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## fatman17

ASIA PACIFIC 
Date Posted: 03-Oct-2008 

Jane's Defence Weekly 

Pakistan plans Cobra modernisation but F-16 upgrade remains uncertain
Joshua Kucera JDW Correspondent - Washington

Key Points
Pakistan plans to upgrade eight AH-1F Cobra helicopters, as well as some of its F-16s

Supporters of the F-16 upgrade are struggling to make a case for continued funding


Pakistan is planning to upgrade eight AH-1F Cobra attack helicopters using funding from the United States, as uncertainty continues over who will pay for upgrades to some of Pakistan's F-16 fleet. 

On 26 September the Defense Security Co-operation Agency (DSCA) announced a potential deal for upgrades to Pakistan's Cobras, which it valued at USD115 million. 

Under the deal, Pakistan will use US military aid to refurbish the helicopters, which were formerly in service with the US Army. The work will be done by US Helicopter: a subsidiary of Bell Helicopter in Ozark, Alabama. The deal will also include rewiring some of Pakistan's current fleet of Cobras, as well as parts, support equipment and training. 

The Pakistan Army operates 27 Cobras. Most were procured from manufacturer Bell in 1984, but the US sold eight additional refurbished AH-1Fs in 2002 and another four in 2007. 

*The Cobra deal comes amid debate in the US Congress about the merits of funding Pakistan's F-16 programme. Pakistan is seeking 46 mid-life upgrade kits for its fleet of F-16A/B multirole fighters. The upgrades would add the Lockheed Martin AN/AAQ-33 Sniper targeting pod, enabling the use of precision-guided munitions and night operations, as well as Link 16 networking capabilities.* 

The US State Department in the first quarter of 2008 announced its intention to pay for the F-16 upgrades out of US funds earmarked for counterterrorism. *The entire upgrade programme is budgeted at USD891 million, of which Washington was originally planning to pay USD108 million; the rest was to come from Pakistan. However, Pakistan has said that it is unable to meet the payments and in mid-2008 the contractor, Lockheed Martin, stopped working on the aircraft for a week because it was not paid.* 

The State Department has proposed spending an additional USD110 million by 15 October and another USD142 million in 2009 to assist Pakistan. "Helping with these payments will provide the newly elected Pakistani government valuable fiscal flexibility as they deal with rising food and fuel prices," said Donald Camp, principal deputy assistant secretary of state for South and Central Asian affairs. 

However, some members of Congress objected to the move, saying that F-16s were not an appropriate use of counterterrorism funds. The dissenting members singled out Cobra helicopters, as well as TOW (tube-launched, optically tracked, wire-guided) missiles and night-vision goggles, as hardware more deserving of US funds. Those members have placed the funds for the F-16 upgrades on hold. State Department officials have said that if the money is not released by 15 October then Lockheed Martin will have to stop work. Lockheed Martin officials did not respond to requests for comment. 

*The US government has attempted to show that the F-16 has been a useful weapon for Pakistan in the fight against Islamists. "F-16s provide a critical counterterrorism capability to Pakistan," Camp said. "The new and enhanced F-16s will provide Pakistan with the ability to attack fleeing targets with precision during all weather conditions." *

*Helicopters are more commonly used in counterinsurgency, as their loiter capability and slower speeds make them better suited for ground attack. While the use of jets like the F-16 might be regarded as overkill against the kind of soft targets usually presented by militant groups, the F-16 does offer some advantages. It is more survivable than the Cobra and Taliban air defence capabilities have been getting more sophisticated. In addition, helicopters are unable to fly at some of the altitudes necessary in Pakistan and can take too long to arrive at a fight, said Richard Aboulafia, a Washington-based aviation analyst. 

"When you're dealing with vast distances and high altitudes, you want something supersonic," like an F-16, Aboulafia said.*

&#169; 2008 Jane's Information Group 

Jane's Login


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## Munir

What a joke...  Joshua Kucera is known anti pak "journalist"....

Harldy informative and 100&#37; sponsored by India to write rubbish info. Just check his name by using Google and you will see only anti islam or anti pak posts.


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## Black Stone

I like the Falcons, nice birds.


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## IceCold

Black Stone said:


> I like the Falcons, nice birds.



As long as they fall into the category of birds and not worms on the ground.


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## fatman17

fatman17 said:


> ASIA PACIFIC
> Date Posted: 03-Oct-2008
> 
> Jane's Defence Weekly
> 
> Pakistan plans Cobra modernisation but F-16 upgrade remains uncertain
> Joshua Kucera JDW Correspondent - Washington
> 
> Key Points
> Pakistan plans to upgrade eight AH-1F Cobra helicopters, as well as some of its F-16s
> 
> Supporters of the F-16 upgrade are struggling to make a case for continued funding
> 
> 
> Pakistan is planning to upgrade eight AH-1F Cobra attack helicopters using funding from the United States, as uncertainty continues over who will pay for upgrades to some of Pakistan's F-16 fleet.
> 
> On 26 September the Defense Security Co-operation Agency (DSCA) announced a potential deal for upgrades to Pakistan's Cobras, which it valued at USD115 million.
> 
> Under the deal, Pakistan will use US military aid to refurbish the helicopters, which were formerly in service with the US Army. The work will be done by US Helicopter: a subsidiary of Bell Helicopter in Ozark, Alabama. The deal will also include rewiring some of Pakistan's current fleet of Cobras, as well as parts, support equipment and training.
> 
> The Pakistan Army operates 27 Cobras. Most were procured from manufacturer Bell in 1984, but the US sold eight additional refurbished AH-1Fs in 2002 and another four in 2007.
> 
> *The Cobra deal comes amid debate in the US Congress about the merits of funding Pakistan's F-16 programme. Pakistan is seeking 46 mid-life upgrade kits for its fleet of F-16A/B multirole fighters. The upgrades would add the Lockheed Martin AN/AAQ-33 Sniper targeting pod, enabling the use of precision-guided munitions and night operations, as well as Link 16 networking capabilities.*
> 
> The US State Department in the first quarter of 2008 announced its intention to pay for the F-16 upgrades out of US funds earmarked for counterterrorism. *The entire upgrade programme is budgeted at USD891 million, of which Washington was originally planning to pay USD108 million; the rest was to come from Pakistan. However, Pakistan has said that it is unable to meet the payments and in mid-2008 the contractor, Lockheed Martin, stopped working on the aircraft for a week because it was not paid.*
> 
> The State Department has proposed spending an additional USD110 million by 15 October and another USD142 million in 2009 to assist Pakistan. "Helping with these payments will provide the newly elected Pakistani government valuable fiscal flexibility as they deal with rising food and fuel prices," said Donald Camp, principal deputy assistant secretary of state for South and Central Asian affairs.
> 
> However, some members of Congress objected to the move, saying that F-16s were not an appropriate use of counterterrorism funds. The dissenting members singled out Cobra helicopters, as well as TOW (tube-launched, optically tracked, wire-guided) missiles and night-vision goggles, as hardware more deserving of US funds. Those members have placed the funds for the F-16 upgrades on hold. State Department officials have said that if the money is not released by 15 October then Lockheed Martin will have to stop work. Lockheed Martin officials did not respond to requests for comment.
> 
> *The US government has attempted to show that the F-16 has been a useful weapon for Pakistan in the fight against Islamists. "F-16s provide a critical counterterrorism capability to Pakistan," Camp said. "The new and enhanced F-16s will provide Pakistan with the ability to attack fleeing targets with precision during all weather conditions." *
> 
> *Helicopters are more commonly used in counterinsurgency, as their loiter capability and slower speeds make them better suited for ground attack. While the use of jets like the F-16 might be regarded as overkill against the kind of soft targets usually presented by militant groups, the F-16 does offer some advantages. It is more survivable than the Cobra and Taliban air defence capabilities have been getting more sophisticated. In addition, helicopters are unable to fly at some of the altitudes necessary in Pakistan and can take too long to arrive at a fight, said Richard Aboulafia, a Washington-based aviation analyst.
> 
> "When you're dealing with vast distances and high altitudes, you want something supersonic," like an F-16, Aboulafia said.*
> 
> © 2008 Jane's Information Group
> 
> Jane's Login



*7 Oct 2001 
Start of Operation Enduring Freedom, in which F-16s participate in air operations against terrorist training camps and infrastructure within Afghanistan.*

its ok for the US to use F-16s in the WoT but not Pakistan. what a bunch of hypocrites.


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## IceCold

fatman17 said:


> Yes its ok for them because they manufacture it. Its their jet and perhaps they can use whenever and whereever it deems fit. We on the other hand are incapable for even providing funds to the contractor for upgrades and obviously if the US will pay for it, they will create issues too specially when it comes to Pakistan, many anti Pakistan lobbies get active. So no surprise at all.


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## fatman17

IceCold said:


> Yes its ok for them because they manufacture it. Its their jet and perhaps they can use whenever and whereever it deems fit. We on the other hand are incapable for even providing funds to the contractor for upgrades and obviously if the US will pay for it, they will create issues too specially when it comes to Pakistan, *many anti Pakistan lobbies get active*. So no surprise at all.



the only thing i agree with you is highlighted above. and whose fault is it if funds are *"diverted"* for other purposes. i am sure you are aware that the whole F-16 program of new a/c and upgrades is based on pak funds. the 28 a/c we r getting refurbished, we have paid for them already, remember (658m).


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## niaz

fatman17 said:


> the only thing i agree with you is highlighted above. and whose fault is it if funds are *"diverted"* for other purposes. i am sure you are aware that the whole F-16 program of new a/c and upgrades is based on pak funds. the 28 a/c we r getting refurbished, we have paid for them already, remember (658m).



I thought I read somewhere that the $658-million owed to us had been paid or adjusted a long time back


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## fatman17

niaz said:


> I thought I read somewhere that the $658-million owed to us had been paid or adjusted a long time back



225m was refunded in the form of soybeans due to work-stoppage on 10 a/c on the LM assembly line. the bal was used up on the 28 embargoed a/c. in other words "tough s**t" on us.
another 400m worth of weapons were released under FMS. howitzers and orions i think.
the US had the audacity to charge us 25m as parking fees for the embargoed a/c,

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## IceCold

fatman17 said:


> the only thing i agree with you is highlighted above. and whose fault is it if funds are *"diverted"* for other purposes. i am sure you are aware that the whole F-16 program of new a/c and upgrades is based on pak funds. the 28 a/c we r getting refurbished, we have paid for them already, remember (658m).



Sir the article that you posted above says that somewhere in the mid of 2008 lockheed stoped working on the jets because they were not being payed and that is where the US steps in and the funds for the counter insurgency programe has to be diverted to the F-16 upgradition programe. 
So i think US had every right to question such allocations afterall if we had payed at the first place there wouldnt have been a congress hearing on the above issue.

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## fatman17

IceCold said:


> Sir the article that you posted above says that somewhere in the mid of 2008 lockheed stoped working on the jets because they *were not being payed *and that is where the US steps in and the funds for the counter insurgency programe has to be diverted to the F-16 upgradition programe.
> So i think US had every right to question such allocations afterall if we had payed at the first place there wouldnt have been a congress hearing on the above issue.



exactly my point - why were they not paid bcuz our GoP decided to *divert* funds for other issues like - official trips to foreign lands with huge entourages of 60-65 coat hangers.


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## IceCold

venom03 said:


> pakistan needs to upgrade its F-16's if they want 2 give fight 2 indian SU-30mki , mig -29 & lca



Thanks for informing us and another thanks for the guns that you just showed us, however we already know what you just told us. 

By the way has the LCA started flying


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## Pk_Thunder

venom03 said:


> pakistan needs to upgrade its F-16's if they want 2 give fight 2 indian SU-30mki , mig -29 & lca



Grow up kid...


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## qaisar52

IceCold said:


> Thanks for informing us and another thanks for the guns that you just showed us, however we already know what you just told us.
> 
> By the way has the LCA started flying



Sir Ice What a Punch. 


Knock out you are true winner


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## Myth_buster_1

xxxxxx said:


> atleast we are trying to make our own.... what r u???? JF-17 ur answer might be.......no **** scientist has worked on it...... chinese just used u to get avionics of US f-16, coz if it were fully joint opeartions, then why are chinks selling them to u...... ....whatever it might be......
> 
> just give me 1 example of ur own effort, ur own full effort.........for a jet....



hey shut up troller.. 
Arjunk-- downgraded variant of Leopard II designed by Krauss-Maffei of Germany
Dhruv-- Messerschmitt-B&#246;lkow-Blohm / Eurocopter (Germany) apparently designed BK-117 and Dhruv and the armed version of Dhruv uses....
-Rocket launchers from Belgium
-Rockets, guns and engines from France
-Brake systems from Italy
-Fuel tanks and gearboxes from Britain
-entire avionics supplied by IAI Israel. 
-and self-protection equipment from a Swedish company.
but 100&#37; made in india!
LCA--- DRDO could not even design a freakin tank let alone a fighter jet... all credit taken away from Dassaul French aerospace "the champion of delta wings"... these days what cant money buy?? hahhh???
BahraMos/P-800--- Russki export variant of P-800 with TOT for hindieski..

now go back to BK and mentally *** yourself.

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## was

23march said:


> hey shut up troller..
> Arjunk-- downgraded variant of Leopard II designed by Krauss-Maffei of Germany
> Dhruv-- Messerschmitt-Bölkow-Blohm / Eurocopter (Germany) apparently designed BK-117 and Dhruv and the armed version of Dhruv uses....
> -Rocket launchers from Belgium
> -Rockets, guns and engines from France
> -Brake systems from Italy
> -Fuel tanks and gearboxes from Britain
> -entire avionics supplied by IAI Israel.
> -and self-protection equipment from a Swedish company.
> but 100% made in india!
> LCA--- DRDO could not even design a freakin tank let alone a fighter jet... all credit taken away from Dassaul French aerospace "the champion of delta wings"... these days what cant money buy?? hahhh???
> BahraMos/P-800--- Russki export variant of P-800 with TOT for hindieski..
> 
> now go back to BK and mentally *** yourself.



and their indi genius missiles are using the russian motors


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## was

xxxxxx said:


> atleast we are trying to make our own.... what r u???? JF-17 ur answer might be.......no **** scientist has worked on it...... chinese just used u to get avionics of US f-16, coz if it were fully joint opeartions, then why are chinks selling them to u...... ....whatever it might be......
> 
> just give me 1 example of ur own effort, ur own full effort.........for a jet....



effort or not the thunders will be operational at the end of this year and will form the first squadron at paf peshawar replacing old a-5s.
where is your lca after 30 years???


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## Imran Khan

he is just a kid with out knodge


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