# JF-17X- A Pakistani Stealth Fighter



## mundaus

JF-17X- A Pakistani Stealth Fighter 

In what is seen as a counter to Indias effort to jointly develop the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) with Russias Sukhoi Aircraft Corp, Pakistans Kamra-based Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) and Chinas Chengdu Aerospace Corp (CAC) last October inked a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) to jointly develop an advanced, stealthy, single-seat and single-engined derivative of the JF-17 Thunder fourth-generation light multi-role combat aircraft (MRCA) that is already being co-developed by PAC and CAC. Consequently, the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is expected to induct only 100 JF-17s into service between this year and 2014, and subsequently switch over to the acquisition of another 150 JF-17-derived fifth-generation stealthy MRCAs between 2015 and 2025. Present plans call for the latter MRCA to be powered by SNECMA Moteurs M88-3 twin-shaft bypass turbofan, incorporate a digital glass cockpit and open-architecture avionics suite, and use SELEX Sensors and Airborne Systems Vixen 500E X-band multi-mode active phased-array radar, or AESA, an integrated electronic warfare/defensive aids suite being developed by Chinas CETC, along with a helmet-mounted sighting-cum-cueing system for which systems from THALES, BAE Systems and Denel Aerospace are being evaluated. The M88 turbofan for this aircraft will have variable camber inlet guide vanes, while its high-pressure compressor will have a sixth stage, and its exhaust nozzle will be of the ejector type. The turbofan will deliver 50kN (11,250lb) of dry thrust and 75kN (17,000lb) with afterburning. The primary offensive armament to be carried by this aircraft will be two underwing-mounted Hatf-8 (also called Raad or thunder in Arabic) air-launched cruise missile, which has a range of 350km. For air combat engagements, the stealthy MRCA will be armed with three types of air-to-air missiles: 60km-range PL-12 beyond visual range missile; 15km-range PL-13 within visual range missile; and PL-14 ramjet-powered 100km-range missile. The latter two have been developed by China in cooperation with South Africas Denel Aerospace.


Defence Aviation

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## MZUBAIR

Its a Good news. Pakistan should go ahead

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## PAFAce

Is this the J-XX that China has been working on for a few years or is this _apart_ from that project? 

As far as I know (and I admit, I know very little), the J-XX is being built from scratch to compete with the F-35 (seeing that China's main rival is the US). The JF-17 was made to be a low-cost, mid-tech, easy to maintain fighter and therefore, souping it upto fifth-gen levels to compete with F-35s doesn't make much sense to me (for a front-line role, that is). Therefore, is it safe to assume that the famous (or infamous) J-XX is not just a JF-17 on steroids and under an invisibility cloak?


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## sky17

Its a good news for Pakistan. Pakistan have to face many challenges in the coming years and a strong defence is required to meet all the future requirements keeping in view the india's defence developments.

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## santa cruz slugg

> F-17X- A Pakistani Stealth Fighter
> 
> In what is seen as a counter to Indias effort to jointly develop the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) with Russias Sukhoi Aircraft Corp, Pakistans Kamra-based Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) and Chinas Chengdu Aerospace Corp (CAC) last October inked a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) to jointly develop an advanced, stealthy, single-seat and single-engined derivative of the JF-17 Thunder fourth-generation light multi-role combat aircraft (MRCA) that is already being co-developed by PAC and CAC. Consequently, the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is expected to induct only 100 JF-17s into service between this year and 2014, and subsequently switch over to the acquisition of another 150 JF-17-derived fifth-generation stealthy MRCAs between 2015 and 2025. Present plans call for the latter MRCA to be powered by SNECMA Moteurs M88-3 twin-shaft bypass turbofan, incorporate a digital glass cockpit and open-architecture avionics suite, and use SELEX Sensors and Airborne Systems Vixen 500E X-band multi-mode active phased-array radar, or AESA, an integrated electronic warfare/defensive aids suite being developed by Chinas CETC, along with a helmet-mounted sighting-cum-cueing system for which systems from THALES, BAE Systems and Denel Aerospace are being evaluated. The M88 turbofan for this aircraft will have variable camber inlet guide vanes, while its high-pressure compressor will have a sixth stage, and its exhaust nozzle will be of the ejector type. The turbofan will deliver 50kN (11,250lb) of dry thrust and 75kN (17,000lb) with afterburning. The primary offensive armament to be carried by this aircraft will be two underwing-mounted Hatf-8 (also called Raad or thunder in Arabic) air-launched cruise missile, which has a range of 350km. For air combat engagements, the stealthy MRCA will be armed with three types of air-to-air missiles: 60km-range PL-12 beyond visual range missile; 15km-range PL-13 within visual range missile; and PL-14 ramjet-powered 100km-range missile. The latter two have been developed by China in cooperation with South Africas Denel Aerospace.



Hopefully no one gets offended but it is not possible to make the Jf-17 a Fifth Generation fighter. This would require a 100% re-design of the aircraft. The Two major things that set the Raptor apart from every other aircraft is that fact that it can super cruise and *Internal weapons bay* Unless the JF-17 were to have both of these you cannot consider it a fifth generation no matter how good the avionics and weapons are. 
The only fifth generation being developed by china is the JXX and no one knows anything about it.

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## MZUBAIR

I love to have more debate on it



> Minor airframe modifications to reduce the aircraft's radar cross-section by adding stealthy features



Santa you may be right. But I think that Pakistanis and Chinese are very good in break for modification. May be above quote from Wikipedia is from experts.

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## MZUBAIR

I don&#8217;t say its F-22 competitor. I know F-22 is far above technology. JF-17 cant compete that. But stealthy features may be added. kind of semi stealthy.


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## Myth_buster_1

santa cruz slugg said:


> Hopefully no one gets offended but *it is not possible to make the Jf-17 a Fifth Generation fighter.* This would require a 100% re-design of the aircraft. The Two major things that set the Raptor apart from every other aircraft is that fact that it can super cruise and *Internal weapons bay* Unless the JF-17 were to have both of these you cannot consider it a fifth generation no matter how good the avionics and weapons are.
> The only fifth generation being developed by china is the JXX and no one knows anything about it.



i agree with you on that, In fact PAF will try to make this a decent 4.5 generation MRCA at best.


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## MZUBAIR

PC & Santa you are right


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## sky17

Nothing is impossible. Inshallah PAF will have its own 5th generation fighter air craft.


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## paritosh

JF-17 wasn't made to counter planes like the PAK-FA or the F-22...!
get a hold of your imagination willye?
a fifth gen fighter would have to be designed from scratch..the frame would(and should) have a majority carbon composite structure to give it stealth...as all engineers would know that only metal is detected by a radar and dielectrics are not...
the JF-17 is a good counter to LCA..you should look to work on a different plane which is a true...fifth gn fighter.


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## Moscow

friends people here talk about building a 5th gen airplane just as if its a matter of few days. 
howmany countries in the world can build a 5th gen aircraft ?just look at the us with their money and knowledge how much time it took to get the raptor to the sky,even the russian superior design its still working hard to get a 5th gen plane flying.

people talk about stealthy features what kind of stealth does the new chinese aircraft gong to get ,the pakfa,lmfi both will have plasma stealth,the raptor and jsf have radar absorbing technology what kind of staelth feature does china posses?

i the next 10 years there are going to be very few 5th gen planes.both the us and russia started work in the early 90 s and we will see only these aircrafts in the next 10-15 years, if china starts working from today i will still take 20 years mininum to get the plane flying.

thanx

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## Myth_buster_1

in next 10-20 years the only possible 5th generation fighter in air will be.

- F-22/ F-35
- PAKFA
- J-XX/J-14
- Swedish stealth fighter
- Japanese stealth fighter

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## hj786

PAFAce said:


> Is this the J-XX that China has been working on for a few years or is this _apart_ from that project?
> 
> As far as I know (and I admit, I know very little), the J-XX is being built from scratch to compete with the F-35 (seeing that China's main rival is the US). The JF-17 was made to be a low-cost, mid-tech, easy to maintain fighter and therefore, souping it upto fifth-gen levels to compete with F-35s doesn't make much sense to me (for a front-line role, that is). Therefore, is it safe to assume that the famous (or infamous) J-XX is not just a JF-17 on steroids and under an invisibility cloak?



Ignore it bro, that picture is just an F-35 edited to look like JF-17. That "news" is trash, nothing more. JF-17 will never become a 5th gen fighter, but no need for PAF fans to worry - China and Pak. have it covered  You should hear something about it by 2012 according to inside sources.

MZUBAIR bhai, you should be careful about quoting stuff from Wikipedia. You know that Planned Upgrades section you quoted? I know the person that wrote it - he is not an expert! If you like, you can go to wikipedia and change it to say whatever you like - anyone can, so it is not considered a reliable source.

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## Myth_buster_1

hj786 said:


> Ignore it bro, that picture is just an F-35 edited to look like JF-17. That "news" is trash, nothing more. JF-17 will never become a 5th gen fighter, but no need for PAF fans to worry - China and Pak. have it covered  You should hear something about it by 2012 according to inside sources.



Do not ignore it at all, as it has been confirmed by many PDF think tanks that this concept is pretty much the truth however 5th generation thing is just too far fetched idea.


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## PAFAce

hj786 said:


> Ignore it bro, that picture is just an F-35 edited to look like JF-17. That "news" is trash, nothing more. JF-17 will never become a 5th gen fighter, but no need for PAF fans to worry - China and Pak. have it covered  You should hear something about it by 2012 according to inside sources.
> 
> MZUBAIR bhai, you should be careful about quoting stuff from Wikipedia. You know that Planned Upgrades section you quoted? I know the person that wrote it - he is not an expert! If you like, you can go to wikipedia and change it to say whatever you like - anyone can, so it is not considered a reliable source.



Thanks man, but after the Mirage-2000 post, I have a hard time believing any 'news' on this forum. I do find that it's a great place to debate and discuss, and gain knowledge. This is why I wrote the above post, to start a debate on whether it is even reasonable/possible to try and upgrade a plane like the JF-17 to 5th gen status. Upgrades are certain, I don't expect PAF to just operate the same plane for the next 20 years, but I don't think there will be such a huge leap, ever.

Continuing with the topic, is it possible that Pakistan and China are taking a similar approach to 5th gen air combat as the Americans, i.e., development of 2 5th-gen aircrafts simultaneously, one for air superiority and one multirole. That would explain the 15 million different designations I have heard about the famous JXX (J-12, J-13, J-14, J-15, J-17).


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## Myth_buster_1

Dont be upset guys. such bogus news like DAWN clip that PAF will acquire "5th generation FC-20 from china" and now this "JF-17 5th generation news" just kills every possible news reputation. the most we can get from current JF-17 is a advance version compareable to F-16 block 52 and only a 4.5 generation features could be expected from later JF-17 blocks.


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## Quwa

PC said:


> Dont be upset guys. such bogus news like DAWN clip that PAF will acquire "5th generation FC-20 from china" and now this "JF-17 5th generation news" just kills every possible news reputation. the most we can get from current JF-17 is a advance version compareable to F-16 block 52 and only a 4.5 generation features could be expected from later JF-17 blocks.


Once JF-17 has AESA, HMDS, 5th gen WVRAAM, ramjet BVRAAM (like MBDA Meteor) etc, it will already be a 4+ generation fighter. Goes without saying that internal upgrades of such a scale will occur, the key issue is the airframe. On PakDef there is talk of acquiring the Snecma M88 turbofan for JF-17; but the current M88 engines are underpowered, so we may see M88-3. Beyond this we can expect greater use of composites to decrease weight and raise TWR. Extended range and payload should also be expected.

It would be interesting if Thales offers a variant of their SPECTRA (used on Rafale) for JF-17's ECM/EW requirements. Sagem has already offered the Gerfaut HMDS and AASM alongside MBDA's MICA-IR/RF. It's reported that PAF is considering a ramjet BVRAAM like Meteor and was also offered AESA by several sources for use on JF-17.

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## MZUBAIR

hj786 said:


> Ignore it bro, that picture is just an F-35 edited to look like JF-17. That "news" is trash, nothing more. JF-17 will never become a 5th gen fighter, but no need for PAF fans to worry - China and Pak. have it covered  You should hear something about it by 2012 according to inside sources.
> 
> MZUBAIR bhai, you should be careful about quoting stuff from Wikipedia. You know that Planned Upgrades section you quoted? I know the person that wrote it - he is not an expert! If you like, you can go to wikipedia and change it to say whatever you like - anyone can, so it is not considered a reliable source.




Okay brother


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## Super Falcon

i dont see any jf 17 stealth will be made ever becoz of design of jf 17


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## MZUBAIR

There are some stealthy features in 4.5th generation. 
Do u think even JF-17 cannot touch that ?


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## iamunique

I feel that the JF-17 aircraft will not morph into JF-17X, but I believe that the 
JF-17 design can/will definitely evolve into something more futuristic if Pakistan 
so desires. Allow me to quote the example of the MCA currently on the boards in India, 
though a new aircraft altogether, the design borrows heavily from the LCA.

What I'm saying is that while there will might not be an aircraft called 'JF-17 Stealth Fighter', there might be another aircraft called 'JF-23 Stealth fighter' which might look a little like the JF-17X(as shown in the initial post on this thread) and would have borrowed quite a few things from the JF-17, but will be a new aircraft altogther. And that new aircraft can definitely be a 5th generation.

On the other hand, whats stopping a current model JF-17 into being converted into something stealthy? Let's remember that most of the aircraft nowadays are run by sophisticated fly-by-wire systems which are advanced enough to compensate for any minor deficiencies in the design (they can even make a washing machine fly I guess!!) and also the digital data structure of current aircraft are also built to be expandable.

So considering the above why can't a few radar-deflecting curves be added to the current JF-17 aircraft and a few more tinkering here & there to turn the current JF-17s into JF-117s. Huh? could some engineers offer their thoughts?

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## mean_bird

Mark Sien said:


> Once JF-17 has AESA, HMDS, 5th gen WVRAAM, ramjet BVRAAM (like MBDA Meteor) etc, it will already be a 4+ generation fighter. Goes without saying that internal upgrades of such a scale will occur, the key issue is the airframe. On PakDef there is talk of acquiring the Snecma M88 turbofan for JF-17; but the current M88 engines are underpowered, so we may see M88-3. Beyond this we can expect greater use of composites to decrease weight and raise TWR. Extended range and payload should also be expected.
> 
> It would be interesting if Thales offers a variant of their SPECTRA (used on Rafale) for JF-17's ECM/EW requirements. Sagem has already offered the Gerfaut HMDS and AASM alongside MBDA's MICA-IR/RF. It's reported that PAF is considering a ramjet BVRAAM like Meteor and was also offered AESA by several sources for use on JF-17.



Wouldn't all those gadgetry increase the price of the JF-17 to prohibitive levels? 

I assume only the last two or so batches will go for an aesa radar and really all the top gadgets because of the increase in cost. French things are also ridiculously expensive. 

btw, which aesa do you guys envision? the RBE2 (or its variant)? or possibly some new radar by galeilo (whatever the spelling is?)


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## TOPGUN

Well wat ever the case smi or fully stealth we need this it is music to my ears right now!!


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## bernard

pakistan wont be getting any stealth fighter before 2025
there are some specific reasons to it,
recently china and russia signed a memorandum of cooperation in advanced military technology fields,
this means that china if it anyhow gets a stealth fighter from russia,it wont be before 2015,becoz thats the period the russians would be unveiling pakfa,which china wont get before 2020,
which when it reverse engineers ,may take 5-10 yrs to deliver to pakistan.
chna has not made even a 4th gen fighter jet without input of foreign designs

what seems possible is that china may develop a stealthy uav in between,but not a fighter.


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## z9-ec

Folks, this news was published by a Malaysian defence magazine known as Tempur in it's February, 2008 edition.

The air chief has mentioned numerous upgrade plans for future JF-17 blocks as mentioned by members before.


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## araz

With the twin tail configuration, use of compposites, JF17 will further reduce its RCS. However, it will certainly not become a fifth generation fighter. It is a simple fighter which was designed for quick induction and export to countries which want to repplace their J7s. It is a testament to ingenuity of the PLAN, and PAF engineers which has made this fighter into a 4th generation fighter. With slightly better engine and avionics, it will become a4.5generation fighter , but that woudl be the limit of its development, as far as I have understood it.
Iwill be happy to be proven wrong though.
WaSalam
Araz


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## Destructlord

Gief us so we can Reverse engineering them!


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## Quwa

mean_bird said:


> Wouldn't all those gadgetry increase the price of the JF-17 to prohibitive levels?
> 
> I assume only the last two or so batches will go for an aesa radar and really all the top gadgets because of the increase in cost. French things are also ridiculously expensive.
> 
> btw, which aesa do you guys envision? the RBE2 (or its variant)? or possibly some new radar by galeilo (whatever the spelling is?)


Not necessarily "prohibitively" expensive. The first 50 will be equipped with RD-93 and Chinese goods, but subsequent batches may boast the AESA. It depends when Europe rolls out their light fighter AESA concepts, but a number of companies did make formal offers to PAF during IDEAS 2008. I think the same would apply to the engine if PAF is indeed looking at M88-3. While it may sound expensive, not that these upgrades to the huge extent may be necessary in the long run. Other than IAF, the PAF may have to contend with much bigger powers, hence wide spread potency is a must. Standardization and logistical ease is another issue, best to ensure the JF-17s are all identically equipped.

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## mean_bird

Mark Sien said:


> Not necessarily "prohibitively" expensive. The first 50 will be equipped with RD-93 and Chinese goods, but subsequent batches may boast the AESA. It depends when Europe rolls out their light fighter AESA concepts, but a number of companies did make formal offers to PAF during IDEAS 2008. I think the same would apply to the engine if PAF is indeed looking at M88-3. While it may sound expensive, not that these upgrades to the huge extent may be necessary in the long run. Other than IAF, the PAF may have to contend with much bigger powers, hence wide spread potency is a must. Standardization and logistical ease is another issue, best to ensure the JF-17s are all identically equipped.



I am not doubting their unavailability. I know it mentions in the IDEAS 2008 that AESA radar is on offer (btw, any idea which one? could be more than one because it states "AESA radar of different make*s* ...") . One option that comes to mind is the RBE2, which according to pshamim is being considered. (I know its PESA but I read somewhere its got an AESA version too, or perhaps in the near future). 

But if we consider a batch to consist of 50 aircrafts and the first batch will have 50 leaving 200 more. Are you saying 200 JF-17s are going to have the AESA radar? I can wish so but I ready doubt that. An AESA radar isn't that cheap. Personally, I don't think more than two batches (not necessarily the last 2) would go for the AESA radar. 

Which takes me to a new point: Since PAF always knew its gonna buy the JF-17 and we always knew we need some good fighter soon, why didn't we start negotiations for a radar sooner? I mean once the nose and other stuff was finalized we could have gone for a better radar in the first batch if we eventually need an AESA.


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## santa cruz slugg

> One option that comes to mind is the RBE2, which according to pshamim is being considered. (I know its PESA but I read somewhere its got an AESA version too, or perhaps in the near future).


 I might be wrong but isn't the RBE2 the Rafales radar? There is a AESA version being built for the French Air Force and it would be on the Rafale if Brazil or India or UAE chose them. I don't know if its for export though. When the secon JF-17 batch comes out it would be brand new so i don't know if France would give it to the JF-17. 
I always assumed that there would be a Chinese AESA on the JF-17. The only AESA's for export currently are the F-16 upgrade and the Elta 2052 (when its finished development). I don't think that there is a need to rush putting the AESA on the JF-17. The older blocks can be upgraded with it later on anyway. Might as well get a solid AESA instead of putting the first available one that comes along.

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## Hasnain2009

We dont have any true 4.5 gen AC, any we are expecting 5gen stealth, and build by PAC, its too much!! Stealth jet means all weapons loaded internally, so current JF-17 cant be upgraded to stealth, and study for new AC cant be started, bcoz its needs billions of $$, be pratical, we cant make stealth, even china cant make stealth before 2015, only PAF is upgrading JF-17 massively with adding minor stealth features and western avionics, and ECM pods and electronic warfare!!


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## ARSENAL6

sky17 said:


> Nothing is impossible. Inshallah PAF will have its own 5th generation fighter air craft.



Inishallah Pakistan will have 7th generation fighter while her enimies dream of a 6th.

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## Destructlord

When its gonna fly?


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## ironman

mundaus said:


> JF-17X- A Pakistani Stealth Fighter
> 
> In what is seen as a counter to Indias effort to jointly develop the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) with Russias Sukhoi Aircraft Corp, Pakistans Kamra-based Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) and Chinas Chengdu Aerospace Corp (CAC) last October inked a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) to jointly develop an advanced, stealthy, single-seat and single-engined derivative of the JF-17 Thunder fourth-generation light multi-role combat aircraft (MRCA) that is already being co-developed by PAC and CAC. Consequently, the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is expected to induct only 100 JF-17s into service between this year and 2014, and subsequently switch over to the acquisition of another 150 JF-17-derived fifth-generation stealthy MRCAs between 2015 and 2025. Present plans call for the latter MRCA to be powered by SNECMA Moteurs M88-3 twin-shaft bypass turbofan, incorporate a digital glass cockpit and open-architecture avionics suite, and use SELEX Sensors and Airborne Systems Vixen 500E X-band multi-mode active phased-array radar, or AESA, an integrated electronic warfare/defensive aids suite being developed by Chinas CETC, along with a helmet-mounted sighting-cum-cueing system for which systems from THALES, BAE Systems and Denel Aerospace are being evaluated. The M88 turbofan for this aircraft will have variable camber inlet guide vanes, while its high-pressure compressor will have a sixth stage, and its exhaust nozzle will be of the ejector type. *The turbofan will deliver 50kN (11,250lb) of dry thrust and 75kN (17,000lb) with afterburning.* The primary offensive armament to be carried by this aircraft will be two underwing-mounted Hatf-8 (also called Raad or thunder in Arabic) air-launched cruise missile, which has a range of 350km. For air combat engagements, the stealthy MRCA will be armed with three types of air-to-air missiles: 60km-range PL-12 beyond visual range missile; 15km-range PL-13 within visual range missile; and PL-14 ramjet-powered 100km-range missile. The latter two have been developed by China in cooperation with South Africas Denel Aerospace.
> 
> 
> Defence Aviation



5th Generation with inferior thrust than current?. I doubt credibility of the link.


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## mean_bird

ironman said:


> 5th Generation with inferior thrust than current?. I doubt credibility of the link.



This is all fanboy discussion if you haven't noticed yet. 

But to answer your question, fanboy pics show twin engines so thrust shouldn't be a problem.


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## Munir

iamunique said:


> I feel that the JF-17 aircraft will not morph into JF-17X, but I believe that the
> JF-17 design can/will definitely evolve into something more futuristic if Pakistan
> so desires. Allow me to quote the example of the MCA currently on the boards in India,
> though a new aircraft altogether, the design borrows heavily from the LCA.
> 
> What I'm saying is that while there will might not be an aircraft called 'JF-17 Stealth Fighter', there might be another aircraft called 'JF-23 Stealth fighter' which might look a little like the JF-17X(as shown in the initial post on this thread) and would have borrowed quite a few things from the JF-17, but will be a new aircraft altogther. And that new aircraft can definitely be a 5th generation.
> 
> On the other hand, whats stopping a current model JF-17 into being converted into something stealthy? Let's remember that most of the aircraft nowadays are run by sophisticated fly-by-wire systems which are advanced enough to compensate for any minor deficiencies in the design (they can even make a washing machine fly I guess!!) and also the digital data structure of current aircraft are also built to be expandable.
> 
> So considering the above why can't a few radar-deflecting curves be added to the current JF-17 aircraft and a few more tinkering here & there to turn the current JF-17s into JF-117s. Huh? could some engineers offer their thoughts?



Look at the LCA there is hardly anything evolving in the design. It is basicly a downgraded Mirage 2000 but then with numerous parties helping to get it in acceptable by IAF.

The JF17 had a different frontal area. Then it added DSI. It added Lerx. And I think it will add lot more cause it is plug and play design. About MRCA. Look at some pics ok Keymag. It is just F35 with totally misdesigned LCA wings... If someone knows the basic of designs then you will notice some major errors. Not that I did all my aviation design classes but I surely remember most of them.

The LCA has hardly potential to evolve. No wonder Dassault went to Rafale. No wonder MRCA is different idea. JF17 can do a lot more. F16 went from the old A model to block60... That is serious evolving... Jf17 now is basicly block32-block40... There is plenty room for better performance. But one must not forget that UCAVS and stealth planes are more important...

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## Arsalan

well for me ots not a good idea,

we must have a stealth fighter but we may jointly produce it with China or someone else. there had been talks about the option for China Pakistan and Turkey to jointly produce one, but it must be a new platform. we must not dream of JF17 turning into a 5 th generation AC. it is Meant ot be a low cost expor oriented AC seeking to replace the F7 , Mig 21 and the A5 fleets. we cannot turn it int an F35 or something!!

also we will not be able to accquire the 5th generation plane on large number as it will surely be expensive, the jf 17 must be improved intensively by accquiring a new radar, more composites and more hard points, this will help us to fill in the neymerical gap of the PAF fleet by inducting the in number and it will be good enought to compete the SU27 ot the Mig29zz

that is the most we must demand of the JF17, this is what it can turn out to be and this is what will be good enough for us!
for a 5 th generation we can chose to either but two or three squadrons or jointly produce them!

may Allah Help Us


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## MadDog

Guys can some one give a link from a reliable site...to support this fact that JF 17-X is being developed.


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## mean_bird

MadDog said:


> Guys can some one give a link from a reliable site...to support this fact that JF 17-X is being developed.



You want a reliable site for a fanboy rumor?


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## Kharian_Beast

mean_bird said:


> You want a reliable site for a fanboy rumor?



Gold medal goes to mean_bird.

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## AjnabiZ

Here is a Photoshop image


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## saiko

uh yeah take one look at the shape of the JF-17. you can not take that article seriously. they would be better off starting from scratch.

and the other upgrades talked about - apg-79 goes for $3.5 million new. a helmet mounted sight and a slightly better engine (how much could that possibly cost given what's in there right now? not much) and you've substantially upgraded a very cheap fighter. those are all tangibles that will help it while still keeping the cost down. giving it supercruise would be rather pointless imo. spend the money on the better radar, engine, ECM and better missiles and call it a day by buying a bunch of them.

round out your f-16/fc-20 inventory to give you something that can credibly take on the su-30 and perform cost effective upgrades until china comes up with a 5th gen player, buy some of those and by then you'll be looking forward to UCAVs and such.

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## Hayreddin

AjnabiZ said:


> Here is a Photoshop image






good joke ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
my brother ,dont do only copy paste,,,,,,,,
this pic nothing to do with jf17 project.


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## SBD-3

Well guys I dont have the knowledge and exprience as you all have but what I cant understand is that why PAF would go for a stealth fighter even if at current it is not even in a position to manufecture all the components of JF-17? it would take years and years to develop stealth fighters look at the the multi billion dollars projects like F/A-22 and JF/A-35 do you onestly think pakistan has such financial capasity? even thunder havent matured yet and still its early stages.Firstly PAF should go through the process as planned because JF-17 is not ment to be a deep strike fighter like J-10.It is more a CAS and Interceptor, a true light weight multirole machine.With Ra'ad giving PAF comprehensive stand-off capability the case for a stealth plane is not appropariate at the moment. I think PAC should design a new fighter from scratches that would fit into the role .Here Pakistan can have a lot of benifit like the reasearch can be bought from "blood brothers" a major cost elimination factor and futher such a project can also be co-owned with a financially sound partner like KSA for example for continious funding
or PAF can make a commitment with PLAAF for future point ToT for J-10 or J-11 
I think if PAF is able to get through thunder project and perhaps go for both J-10 and J-11 then we dont need any stealth fighters, Just potent radars and good missiles on excellent fighters to nail any 5th gen threat from IAF


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## Arsalan

for me all we need to do is:
get our first squadron ready and evaluate it for any improvements we want!
in second block:
1. get better engine
2. add two more hard points under belly
3. use more composities
4. get a better radar if possible

there is no need for stealth shape, twin tails, double engines, internal harpoints or so on!! if we need them we may invest in a new fifth generation plane !

regards!

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## MZUBAIR

arsalanaslam123 said:


> for me all we need to do is:
> get our first squadron ready and evaluate it for any improvements we want!
> in second block:
> 1. get better engine
> 2. add two more hard points under belly
> 3. use more composities
> 4. get a better radar if possible
> 
> there is no need for stealth shape, twin tails, double engines, internal harpoints or so on!! if we need them we may invest in a new fifth generation plane !
> 
> regards!



Alteast for next 100 crafts (which makes 150 total), we should go for better engine, add 2 more hard points, use more composits, get batter radar and ofcourse its possible.

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## Arsalan

and of this list the the upgrades that are planned include:
use of more composities
IRST
better FLIR
and perhaps a better radar!

the news on procurment of a new engine is still a bt under cover! some sources claim it to be the chines WS13, sometime it is stated to be a french engine (i doubt that)! even it is being claimed that russia may well be offering a TVC engine for JF!!

for the time being we have to sit tight and wait that something better comes JF's way!!

regards!


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## SBD-3

yap I agree. JF-17 with BVRs is more than a match for MRCA and perhaps MKI as well if it is aided by AWACS to negate MKI its main advantage; better detection range. a light fighter not using its radar will significantly lower the detection range of MKI perhaps within the range of Thunder's SD-10. And ofcourse, a better engine with TVC will significantly enhance the manuverbililty of the aircraft.How ever it would be wise to use Chinese engine rather than Russian and French beacuse of threat of sanctions. 
Composits will significantly reduce RCS so more problems for MKI and MRCA 
Regarding hard points 8 seems good but unless it does not compromise the egility of the aircraft.The ways to enhance manuverbility sould be the prime focus if we are to compete with MKIs and MCRA.six missiles are a good option with 4 BVRs and 2 WVRs with highly egile aircraft. I still beleive that its a game on for MKIs 
As far as radars are concerned I read it somewhere that PAF is looking for M-AESA developed by swedish company due to go in trials (correct me if I am wrong) any western AESA will be welcomed by PAF and as last resort, we may chose chinese AESA


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## Hunter911

I believe that Pakistan has the ability to make the stealth fighter.


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## applesauce

Hunter911 said:


> I believe that Pakistan has the ability to make the stealth fighter.



i dont.... at least not as of right now


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

I am sure Pakistani scientist can do anything when they put their mind to it


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## Lion Of Pakistan

DemonHunter said:


> The funniest thing i ever heard first try to match up with the mighty Indian Air Force. Even USAF doesnt have 6th gen. fighter aircrafts as of now and u are talkin about paf having 7th gen aircraft. Wake up dude



Man, i LOVE just LOVE when Indians think Indian Air Force is better than PAF.
You must be really stupid to think that.
Screw talking about gens' talk about skill.
Pakistan Air Force's pilots are way more skilled than IAF pilots.
its a FACT.


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## Chanakyaa

bernard said:


> pakistan wont be getting any stealth fighter before 2025
> there are some specific reasons to it,
> recently china and russia signed a memorandum of cooperation in advanced military technology fields,
> this means that china if it anyhow gets a stealth fighter from russia,it wont be before 2015,becoz thats the period the russians would be unveiling pakfa,which china wont get before 2020,
> which when it reverse engineers ,may take 5-10 yrs to deliver to pakistan.
> chna has not made even a 4th gen fighter jet without input of foreign designs
> 
> what seems possible is that china may develop a stealthy uav in between,but not a fighter.



with Indian money poured in development, and PAKFA being a joint product, pluz the top machine for Russia,
i seriously doubt it will be sold to china atleast bef 2030.


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## Kompromat

Growler said:


> in next 10-20 years the only possible 5th generation fighter in air will be.
> 
> - F-22/ F-35
> - PAKFA
> - J-XX/J-14
> - Swedish stealth fighter
> - *Japanese stealth fighter*




Sir i am pretty sure Japanese are Persuing F-35 as their Frontline Stealth fighter after being Refused on F22 Raptor request.

Checkout the Link please:

Contract negotiations indicate Japanese move towards JSF

Regards:


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## aimarraul

XiNiX said:


> with Indian money poured in development, and PAKFA being a joint product, pluz the top machine for Russia,
> i seriously doubt it will be sold to china atleast bef 2030.




i seriously doubt russia still have anything worth to buy after 2030......


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## Kompromat

Novice09 said:


> So, can u tell me how?
> 
> can they develop any thing required for a 5th gen fighter jet?
> Do they have enough funding? (yup, Americans can provide as donation for war on terror)
> 
> OK my list could go on n on, might b u could name few Pakistani tech adequate for 5th gen fighter jet?





I must agree with you at the this point , but as a matter of fact i must say we do break the Status quo . 

I have a little question , did we had the Technalogy to Build our own Nukes?

No but we did it!

Did we had the technalogy to develop State of the art Hypersonic Balistic missiles and IRBMs?

No but we did it and we are looking forward for an ICBM now!

Did we had the technalogy to Develop a long range Transonic Nuclear capable Cruise missile on par with Tomahawk and Air launced Cruise missile?

No but we did it ...

Did we had the technalogy to develop UAV's ?

No but we did it and we eye the UCAV soon inshallah.

Did we had the technalogy to develop 4th Gen Fighter jet ?

No but we made it thanks to our Buddies

Look alot of members specially Indians have their say about Our potential , lemme tell you how you underestimate us and since we are enimies it is not in Favour of you guys.

You laugh at our situations in the Country and tell us that we do not have Revenue to buy hardware , but i am hopefull that things do change and the Future is better Inshallah.

We did all that and we will Make a 5th Gen Fighter and you will see it , and you will see some amazing developements from our side.

Regards:

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## xukxuk

XiNiX said:


> with Indian money poured in development, and PAKFA being a joint product, pluz the top machine for Russia,
> i seriously doubt it will be sold to china atleast bef 2030.



guys tell you something
china start the j10 at early 80s put them in AF late 90s
and start the 5th stealth fighter at early 90s
we will start to see the news about china's 5th gen fighter before 2012
with the boost of economy and one party political government 
you will be very surprised no late then 2020
i am not judge which political system is better or not
but you have to believe this
"one party political government" if they want to do something they will finally get it
one RICH "one party political government" if they want to do something they will do it faster then your thought

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## aimarraul

xukxuk said:


> guys tell you something
> china start the j10 at early 80s put them in AF late 90s
> and start the 5th stealth fighter at early 90s
> we will start to see the news about china's 5th gen fighter before 2012
> with the boost of economy and one party political government
> you will be very surprised no late then 2020
> i am not judge which political system is better or not
> but you have to believe this
> "one party political government" if they want to do something they will finally get it
> one RICH "one party political government" if they want to do something they will do it faster then your thought



that's what &#8220;great-leap-forward&#8221; development mean,lots of budget used on R&D ,small-scale equipment but speed up the upgrading


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## Tomahawk

We certainly hope that China start flying stealth fighter soon.

As per sinodefence:
"In 1997, the U.S. Office of Naval Intelligence (ONI) reported that an advanced F-22-class twin-engine stealth fighter XXJ was being developed by 601 Institute and Shenyang Aircraft Corporation (SAC). In 2001, an Internet source photo showed a F-22-like aircraft model was being tested in a wind tunnel at 601 Institute. At the same time, it was revealed that 611 Institute was also working its own advanced fighter aircraft design, possibly based on the design and technology of its J-10 fighter."


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## ice_man

hj786 said:


> Ignore it bro, that picture is just an F-35 edited to look like JF-17. That "news" is trash, nothing more. JF-17 will never become a 5th gen fighter, but no need for PAF fans to worry - China and Pak. have it covered  You should hear something about it by 2012 according to inside sources.
> 
> MZUBAIR bhai, you should be careful about quoting stuff from Wikipedia. You know that Planned Upgrades section you quoted? I know the person that wrote it - he is not an expert! If you like, you can go to wikipedia and change it to say whatever you like - anyone can, so it is not considered a reliable source.



@h76 

you are absolutely right! if stealth was all about adding "stealthy" features to the fighter then the US would have tried to make its currently succesful F-16 become a stealth fighter! however they went for a complete new airframe! 

they did try to make a F-15 version of stealthy fighter....but that as well only had composite material and internal bay!

but pakistan making JF-17 stealth is a bit far fetched.....currently what i feel is JF-17 will be inducted followed by improvements in avionics suite of JF for atleast 2 more decades and not a new airframe from scratch! 

meanwhile china will keep working on J-XX and hopefully in time we will buy it off them.....


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## Comet

Why would China sell J-XX to Pakistan?


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## aimarraul

umairp said:


> Why would China sell J-XX to Pakistan?



cos it's pakistan

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## xukxuk

umairp said:


> Why would China sell J-XX to Pakistan?



i can't see any reason
why not?

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## Tomahawk

umairp said:


> Why would China sell J-XX to Pakistan?



If Pakistan can afford those, I don't see any reason that china would refuse.


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## Comet

We should be developing it along with china.... like JF-17.


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## Tomahawk

umairp said:


> We should be developing it along with china.... like JF-17.



More money, infact lots of money is required for development of stealth fighter program rather than purchasing stealth fighters. At this moment I don't think so that we have the money to start investing in the development of a stealth fighter program.


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## abbasniazi

DemonHunter said:


> The funniest thing i ever heard first try to match up with the mighty Indian Air Force. Even USAF doesnt have 6th gen. fighter aircrafts as of now and u are talkin about paf having 7th gen aircraft. Wake up dude



SURE WE'LL GET 7TH GENERATION BY 2509 A.D lols...

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## vizier

Maybe if 4th. gen. planes fly low while carrying lightweight durable flat radar absorbant material panels above the cylinder, bump shaped fuselage parts on top of the plane they can reduce rcs considerably in air to air mode against all directions above that altitude. 

As the plane gets closer to dogfight and maneuvrability becomes the prior case the panel or panels can be disposed parachuting down for further use.


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## aimarraul

umairp said:


> We should be developing it along with china.... like JF-17.


it's different from J-17,china still stuck in lots of area&#65306;fire control radar,engine, etc. it means lots of uncertain factors,what if J-XX fail,is it wise to invest like this ?you wonder why pakistan perfer western avionics and radar? it's much safe puting money on TOT after J-XX real complete,and it won't cost a lot,FC-20 will be model case.in the long run pakistan will develop everything by herself.china's weaponry should be the backup option for pakistan as for now ,cos there is still clear gap between china's technology and western's


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## Srinivas

A.V. said:


> friends people here talk about building a 5th gen airplane just as if its a matter of few days.
> howmany countries in the world can build a 5th gen aircraft ?just look at the us with their money and knowledge how much time it took to get the raptor to the sky,even the russian superior design its still working hard to get a 5th gen plane flying.
> 
> people talk about stealthy features what kind of stealth does the new chinese aircraft gong to get ,the pakfa,lmfi both will have plasma stealth,the raptor and jsf have radar absorbing technology what kind of staelth feature does china posses?
> 
> i the next 10 years there are going to be very few 5th gen planes.both the us and russia started work in the early 90 s and we will see only these aircrafts in the next 10-15 years, if china starts working from today i will still take 20 years mininum to get the plane flying.
> 
> thanx



It is highly possible that china will get the stealth tech from Russia, then it will reduce the time frame of 5th generation fighter development.
After all china which spends Billions on defense budget can afford money for buying the tech from Russia. This may be the reason they haven't joined PAK-FA project, in order to develop their own aerospace Industry


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## aimarraul

sukhoi_30MKI said:


> It is highly possible that china will get the stealth tech from Russia, then it will reduce the time frame of 5th generation fighter development.
> After all china which spends Billions on defense budget can afford money for buying the tech from Russia. This may be the reason they haven't joined PAK-FA project, in order to develop their own aerospace Industry



more likely get engine tech from ukraine &#12290;i really don't count on russia at other parts ,china is on her own
there are only two possible reason china didn't joined PAK-FA project:
1.we can't fully share the 5th tech with them
2 china is developing J-XX for years as rumor,it's not worth to drop out


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## Young-khan

umairp said:


> Why would China sell J-XX to Pakistan?



Because china is a smart, it knows the amount of money india is spending of defence. Just look at iaf aquiring mki in huge numbers and thats just a start they are going to buy more.

Now they are ready to jump in to bed wuth usa and possibly f18 are on the cards. So china can not ignore this and countering india with pakistans help is easier then countering india by its self.

This serves the interests of both pakistan and china.

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## Young-khan

aimarraul said:


> are you guys tired of this?india can forget about Kashmir as long as china exist.China jump into bed with USA?are you high?



No kind sir i meant that India is now jumping in to bed with USA NOT CHINA, our trust and gratitude towards china is unquestionable.

What i was trying to say was that china providing technology to pakistan is a bonus for both countries as together they can counter Indian buildup of military and its hostile intentions.

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## aimarraul

Young-khan said:


> No kind sir i meant that India is now jumping in to bed with USA NOT CHINA, our trust and gratitude towards china is unquestionable.
> 
> What i was trying to say was that china providing technology to pakistan is a bonus for both countries as together they can counter Indian buildup of military and its hostile intentions.



i was overreact and didn't read the your post carefully,sorry,it's my fault,i thought you was indian....

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## Young-khan

aimarraul said:


> i was overreact and didn't read the your post carefully,sorry,it's my fault,i thought you was indian....



Thats ok friend.

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## gogbot

Young-khan said:


> Because china is a smart, it knows the amount of money india is spending of defence. Just look at iaf aquiring mki in huge numbers and thats just a start they are going to buy more.
> 
> Now they are ready to jump in to bed wuth usa and possibly f18 are on the cards. So china can not ignore this and countering india with pakistans help is easier then countering india by its self.
> 
> This serves the interests of both pakistan and china.



Whats stopping the US from getting China's flash new jet J-xx , from Pakistan the same way PAk gave f-16 to China.

Pak Gov is still very much allied to the US and relies on it as an arms suppliers. It isn't Too far fetched to assume the US trowing its weight arround to get a plane from Pakistan.

Why do you think you guys get the FC-20 instead of a J-10B.
US a rival of China has too much influence in Pakistan. They dont want their best tech ending up in US hands.

So Why if they cant even trust you with the j-10B will China give you J-xx.

Its China's gamble, but based on their past decisions. I doubt you will get access to their latest tech.

You have to Rid your self of US influences as well as other powers before China can freely give you what it can. 

But at that point you will be fully reliant on China and will have to play by their rules.
But they are your friends so id it worth it ?
Can live with a friend that is calling some of your shots.


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## a1b2c145

jf-17x and jxx are beautiful dreams


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## aimarraul

gogbot said:


> Whats stopping the US from getting China's flash new jet J-xx , from Pakistan the same way PAk gave f-16 to China.
> 
> Pak Gov is still very much allied to the US and relies on it as an arms suppliers. It isn't Too far fetched to assume the US trowing its weight arround to get a plane from Pakistan.
> 
> Why do you think you guys get the FC-20 instead of a J-10B.
> US a rival of China has too much influence in Pakistan. They dont want their best tech ending up in US hands.
> 
> So Why if they cant even trust you with the j-10B will China give you J-xx.
> 
> Its China's gamble, but based on their past decisions. I doubt you will get access to their latest tech.
> 
> You have to Rid your self of US influences as well as other powers before China can freely give you what it can.
> 
> But at that point you will be fully reliant on China and will have to play by their rules.
> But they are your friends so id it worth it ?
> Can live with a friend that is calling some of your shots.



J-XX is sth most chinese aren't even sure its exist,pakistan bought F-16 Block52 only because F-20 is still under test and a limiting factor that everyone knows,it wouldn't hurt having more options before china catch up US,maybe F-20 will be different from J-10B,but it will meet PAF's requirements, at least able to counter SU30-MKI,otherwise PAF won't even conside it as a option,china can trust pakistan,we know what kind of helps they've provided to us,but it doesn't mean both countries need to open everything to each other,as a person we can there is nothing wrong with that,
i can insure you one thing ,if J-XX success&#65292;pakistan will definitely have it, it will still be different from our verison,but we will make sure it can counter PAK-FA

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## aimarraul

gogbot said:


> But at that point you will be fully reliant on China and will have to play by their rules.
> But they are your friends so id it worth it ?
> Can live with a friend that is calling some of your shots.



please read our "Five Principles of Peaceful Coexistence"
&#8220;Mutual non-interference in each other's internal affairs&#8221; it's the main reason china always have more friends .if china force our friend play by our "rules", N.K wouldn't have NB


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## gogbot

aimarraul said:


> J-XX is sth most chinese aren't even sure its exist,pakistan bought F-16 Block52 only besause F-20 is still under test and a limiting factor that everyone knows,it wouldn't hurt having more options before china catch up US,maybe F-20 will be different from J-10B,but it will meet PAF's requirements, at least able to counter SU30-MKI,otherwise PAF won't even conside it as a option,china can trust pakistan,we know what kind of helps they've provided to us,but it doesn't mean both countries need to open everything to each other,as a person we can there is nothing wrong with that,
> i can insure you one thing ,if J-XX success&#65292;pakistan will definitely have it, it will still be different from our verison,but we will make sure it can counter PAK-FA



Well i agree with you on these points.

J-xx will be a success
Fc-20 may be be good enough to effectively counter(not match) Current MKI
JX-17 seems like a good idea, seems to a potent 4.5 gen plane


But like i said earlier, you are taking a gamble when you give your latest tech to another country, especially one which is has a significant US influence in it.
Its a gamble , That doesn't mean China doesn't gamble.

If you do give Pakistan all your latest tech and the US gets its hands on it, China will be the One to suffer. 

But the J-xx is still to be Inducted into the PLAAF, exporting it to PAK before this, is the a top priority for the CCP.

Will Pakistan have it, yes probably, anytime in the same time line as the FGFA or J-xx. NO

Because lets face it , you just dont start selling 5th gen jets like they are Ak-47's.

You try to ensure your latest tech is well a secret.
Pakistan may get a variant of the J-XX after its inductions. and a new upgrade is being developed.

The question to be be asked now is when will Pak get the J-XX, it certainly wont be anywhere in this decade. as i have established.


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## gogbot

aimarraul said:


> please read our "Five Principles of Peaceful Coexistence"
> Mutual non-interference in each other's internal affairs it's the main reason china always have more friends .if china force our friend play by our "rules", N.K wouldn't have NB



Listen I am not saying China will start to give orders to Pakistan, but am saying that Pakistan will be in China's pocket at that point. 
Just because its in the pocket of china doesn't mean China will Take advantage, But its still in China's Pocket.
That's all i said.


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## desiman

Man this fanboy love for the JF-17 is realyl getting weird now. Does anyone here have any idea what a 5th generation aircraft is ? lol People talk about JF-17 getting this and that and then it will become a 5th or even high 4th generation aircraft. let review this shall we -
1) People the only reason pakistan has bought the JF-17 is that it is the only thing they can afford to get in large numbers, its not because its an amazing jet or because it can be turned into a 5th generation. The JF-17 is low cost, fast turnover aircraft that is good in numbers. In its current form it hardly qualifies as a true 4th generation aircraft so getting it upto a 5th generation aircraft standard is nothing but a dream. 
2) talking about getting this and that, please remember this that the PAF was not even able to upgrade its F-16's properly. Most of the F-16 apart from the one recently inducted into that PAF, are underpowered and old. If i was managing the PAF i would upgrade the F-16's before as they are a proven fighter and easily better than the JF-17 (i know lot of people would want to kill me because i said this lol but this is the truth people)
3) Currently the JF-17 cost less than half of what a MKI cost, if the JF-17 even has plans to get any one of the upgrades all the fanboys are dreaming of, it will increase the cost and again that would be too much for the PAF. The most the JF-17 will be able to get, by my analysis is maybe a new engine and maybe again maybe a better radar, and thats it. No stealth features, no pesa radar, and nothing else. 
4) Does anyone even have any idea how much time and money goes into even changing one nut on a jet. Changing anything on a jet, you have to change the whole structure, every support plate on the structure, electronics, components etc etc. The cost of all the upgrades that some people are talking about here is nothing but huge. It would cost the PAF billions of dollars. It would be just wise to get a new jet for that much money. The JF-17 will stay the way it is for sometime, until the PAF get more resources or is not able to get hold of anything else. I work in procurement so please dont argue about the cost lol its my everyday job 
Feel free to disagree.


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## aimarraul

gogbot said:


> Well i agree with you on these points.
> 
> J-xx will be a success
> Fc-20 may be be good enough to effectively counter(not match) Current MKI
> JX-17 seems like a good idea, seems to a potent 4.5 gen plane
> 
> 
> But like i said earlier, you are taking a gamble when you give your latest tech to another country, especially one which is has a significant US influence in it.
> Its a gamble , That doesn't mean China doesn't gamble.
> 
> If you do give Pakistan all your latest tech and the US gets its hands on it, China will be the One to suffer.
> 
> But the J-xx is still to be Inducted into the PLAAF, exporting it to PAK before this, is the a top priority for the CCP.
> 
> Will Pakistan have it, yes probably, anytime in the same time line as the FGFA or J-xx. NO
> 
> Because lets face it , you just dont start selling 5th gen jets like they are Ak-47's.
> 
> You try to ensure your latest tech is well a secret.
> Pakistan may get a variant of the J-XX after its inductions. and a new upgrade is being developed.
> 
> The question to be be asked now is when will Pak get the J-XX, it certainly wont be anywhere in this decade. as i have established.



there is limit of the next gen jets because it need more and more money....china will try to make india's FGFA busy around McMahon Line and buy more time for pakistan.at the same time ,speed up the upgrading like what we did over the last 10 years,we call pakistan "brother country" ,there is trust and friendship between pakistani and chinese,that's why i wish the best of pakistan,i believe they will develop everything by themself,i know it takes time,but pakistan have 180 million people ,i have faith in them.

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## Young-khan

desidog said:


> Man this fanboy love for the JF-17 is realyl getting weird now. Does anyone here have any idea what a 5th generation aircraft is ? lol People talk about JF-17 getting this and that and then it will become a 5th or even high 4th generation aircraft. let review this shall we -
> 1) People the only reason pakistan has bought the JF-17 is that it is the only thing they can afford to get in large numbers, its not because its an amazing jet or because it can be turned into a 5th generation. The JF-17 is low cost, fast turnover aircraft that is good in numbers. In its current form it hardly qualifies as a true 4th generation aircraft so getting it upto a 5th generation aircraft standard is nothing but a dream.
> 2) talking about getting this and that, please remember this that the PAF was not even able to upgrade its F-16's properly. Most of the F-16 apart from the one recently inducted into that PAF, are underpowered and old. If i was managing the PAF i would upgrade the F-16's before as they are a proven fighter and easily better than the JF-17 (i know lot of people would want to kill me because i said this lol but this is the truth people)
> 3) Currently the JF-17 cost less than half of what a MKI cost, if the JF-17 even has plans to get any one of the upgrades all the fanboys are dreaming of, it will increase the cost and again that would be too much for the PAF. The most the JF-17 will be able to get, by my analysis is maybe a new engine and maybe again maybe a better radar, and thats it. No stealth features, no pesa radar, and nothing else.
> 4) Does anyone even have any idea how much time and money goes into even changing one nut on a jet. Changing anything on a jet, you have to change the whole structure, every support plate on the structure, electronics, components etc etc. The cost of all the upgrades that some people are talking about here is nothing but huge. It would cost the PAF billions of dollars. It would be just wise to get a new jet for that much money. The JF-17 will stay the way it is for sometime, until the PAF get more resources or is not able to get hold of anything else. I work in procurement so please dont argue about the cost lol its my everyday job
> Feel free to disagree.




No we dont have any ideas, all ideas are drawn and implemented in India. You see india is the home of aeronautical engineering and everyone else has no ideas or technology.

Quick few questions my friend.

1)In 1965 India had superior numbers and superior technology, yet PAF outclassed IAF why do you think that is?

2)Fanboys here are dreamers at time and as you said all it is a dream, so why do india feel concerned trying to stop engine supplies etc?

3) You say the upgrades will cost money, dont you think paf already knows that and has planned future budget to resolve that situation?

I am here to tell my fellow pakistani members here as well if they think jf17 is an answer to counter mki then they have beed either smoking drugs or getting drunk.

JF17 is designed to replace our old ageing fleet of aircraft and absorb many upgrades along the way, however it has not been designed to counter the mki.

But to say Thunder cannot counter mki in large numbers in defensive role is a absolutely crazy. MKI are not unbeatable they can be beaten by thunders in numbers in defensive role with some help of awacs.
Thunder can easily counter other iaf planes such m2k and bisons and mig27 that itself is a big plus for paf.

Thunder is designed to defend pakistani airspace and not for strikes against the enemy, for that thunder variants will evolve.


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## Young-khan

gogbot said:


> Listen I am not saying China will start to give orders to Pakistan, but am saying that Pakistan will be in China's pocket at that point.
> Just because its in the pocket of china doesn't mean China will Take advantage, But its still in China's Pocket.
> That's all i said.



Well Pakistan is not and will not be in anybodys pocket, however chinese pocket is like our own pocket so that cant be that bad.

The relationship with china is open and transparrent without any hidden conditions and motives, same cannot be said for usa.

Pakistan has always stood in solidarity with china, public more then goverment at times. We support one china policy and always have, we stand in solodarity with chinese claims to its land occupied by india.

Now talking about indian relationship, once a great friend of russia it has forgotten about the hand that fed it and has decided to jump in to bed with usa. We pakistanis have not done that to friend who has always supported our cause.

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## Young-khan

gogbot said:


> Whats stopping the US from getting China's flash new jet J-xx , from Pakistan the same way PAk gave f-16 to China.
> 
> Have you any evidence to back that up or is this another indian accussation that lacks any credibility?.
> 
> China didnt need any f16 from pak, they have various other sources that they can aquire technology from. Chinese have secretly been working on various projects and as they become succesful typical indians and usa thinks they have stolen technology or have been helped in aquiring technolgy by pak etc.
> 
> Once upon a time people of the west use to downplay and shun japanese, they didint think they had their own technological base, yet now you look at it a japan is a technology leader.
> 
> So son dont always beleive what you read and see.


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## desiman

Young-khan said:


> No we dont have any ideas, all ideas are drawn and implemented in India. You see india is the home of aeronautical engineering and everyone else has no ideas or technology.
> 
> Quick few questions my friend.
> 
> 1)In 1965 India had superior numbers and superior technology, yet PAF outclassed IAF why do you think that is?
> 
> 2)Fanboys here are dreamers at time and as you said all it is a dream, so why do india feel concerned trying to stop engine supplies etc?
> 
> 3) You say the upgrades will cost money, dont you think paf already knows that and has planned future budget to resolve that situation?
> 
> I am here to tell my fellow pakistani members here as well if they think jf17 is an answer to counter mki then they have beed either smoking drugs or getting drunk.
> 
> JF17 is designed to replace our old ageing fleet of aircraft and absorb many upgrades along the way, however it has not been designed to counter the mki.
> 
> But to say Thunder cannot counter mki in large numbers in defensive role is a absolutely crazy. MKI are not unbeatable they can be beaten by thunders in numbers in defensive role with some help of awacs.
> Thunder can easily counter other iaf planes such m2k and bisons and mig27 that itself is a big plus for paf.
> 
> Thunder is designed to defend pakistani airspace and not for strikes against the enemy, for that thunder variants will evolve.



Brother your getting me all wrong, where in my post did i mention that India is better than pakistan ? I am not criticizing Pakistan or supporting India, my main criticism is against the people who are just blindly saying things about the JF-17 and ruining its reputation. If you want to see what i mean just look at the MKI vs JF-17 forum. I am saying what you are saying also, but i think you read me in the wrong way. 
1)1965 - the debate is endless, paf says something, IAF says something, all we can say it that the PAF gave the IAF a good fight but you have to consider who won the war and the outcomes which should not be discussed on this thread bcz it will just spark more emotions. 
2)I would not call Fanboys dreamers, even dreamer in aeronautics dream something logical ( I know as me being one ), but fanboys tend to glorify everything. Just like how people are talking about the JF-17.Its a good jet, cost effective and easy to maintain, but not a deterrent to the IAF in any way. 
3)The PAF is already very strained in its budgets, and from what i know from the people inside pakistan, there are only few upgrades planned as of yet, ,nothing is confirmed. The future of the PAF totally depends on the war on terror, future funding from the USA and the condition of the pakistani economy. With the PAK army eating away on anything it can get it hands on, the PAF will continue to struggle to get what it wants. As of now not even one update or a future block as been confirmed and nothing should come up for atleast 2 years more. This is what i have heard and come to know from my sources which are more than decent 
4)The M2K, bisons and MIG 27 was war proven and very lethal jets. the weakest in this link, the bison, is BVR equipped and has been upgraded heavily by the IAF, its maneuverbility and speed have always been appreciated by the IAF. Yes the JF-17 will be a tough fight for all these jets but again not easily by any means. Specially the M2K which is one of the most trusted jets of the IAF and is very formidable in its current form. can you tell me why you think the JF-17 will be able to beat them so easily as you think ?
5)The MKI are for sure not unbeatable but it would take atleast 3 -4 JF-17's to shoot down an MKI, which is the fact no matter what people think or say. In its current form the JF-17 can not even get close to the MKI let alone shoot it down. 3-4 JF-17 in tight formation and in favorable conditions with awacs support have a much better chance but again whats to say that there will only be 1 MKI alone. LOL 9 out of 10 times the MKI will be either with another 2-3 MKI's or with a mig29's or 27's or Mirages. Again its not unbeatable but the chances are very less. 

you got that point right is that the JF-17 will be an effective interceptor not a strike aircraft. The PAF has the F-16's for that. Feel free to disagree again bro.


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## desiman

Young-khan said:


> Well Pakistan is not and will not be in anybodys pocket, however chinese pocket is like our own pocket so that cant be that bad.
> 
> The relationship with china is open and transparrent without any hidden conditions and motives, same cannot be said for usa.
> 
> Pakistan has always stood in solidarity with china, public more then goverment at times. We support one china policy and always have, we stand in solodarity with chinese claims to its land occupied by india.
> 
> Now talking about indian relationship, once a great friend of russia it has forgotten about the hand that fed it and has decided to jump in to bed with usa. We pakistanis have not done that to friend who has always supported our cause.



Brother you have no idea how good Indian and Russian relationships are. Just for example if you remember the Russian's sent their own nuclear sub to protect India against USA during 71. I dont see China supporting Pakistan in 71, or kargil lol India has many solid pacts with Russia which are worth atleast 10 times pakistan's whole military budget lol Just because the world is open to India now and we can buy anything from anyone does not mean that our relationship is getting weaker with the Russians. We still have over 20 projects running with them, few of them are the PAKFA, Aircraft carriers, Various tanks, ships and radars projects. The list is almost endless. The only reason China supports pakistan is to counter India and nothing else. If China was such a good friends of your why dont you have the latest Chinese equipment ? Where on the other hand India operates all of Russia's best equipment and takes part in the latest Russian research. Please dont talk about something you have no idea about, you can ask any fellow Russian brother on this Forum about the relationship that Indian's share with them. The relationship is very very strong militarily and culturally.


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## DemonHunter

Lion Of Pakistan said:


> Screw talking about gens' talk about skill.
> Pakistan Air Force's pilots are way more skilled than IAF pilots.
> its a FACT.



Thanxs buddy for a good laughter session I had while reading ur comment PAF is no. 1 Air force in the world
IAF, USAF, russian and Israeli are all lil rookies

But can u gimmie one proof or source which back ur claim of Paf being better than IAF and ur Pilots being more trained n skilled than ours


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## zagahaga

i dont think we are going to make it fully stealth... i think its going to be made to encounter su 30 and su 35 that it


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## Lion Of Pakistan

DemonHunter said:


> Thanxs buddy for a good laughter session I had while reading ur comment PAF is no. 1 Air force in the world
> IAF, USAF, russian and Israeli are all lil rookies
> 
> But can u gimmie one proof or source which back ur claim of Paf being better than IAF and ur Pilots being more trained n skilled than ours



1.Indo-Pakistan War of 1965
MM Alam took down 5 IAF jet fighters within 1 minute.
Its a world record till today.
Everyone had the same jet fighters.
But how come MM Alam took down 5 in 1 minute?
Because PAF pilots have skill.

2. Pakistan is the only country to have shot down Israeli jet fighters.
When Israel had better aircraft than Pakistan.
What does this mean?
Pakistan Air Force pilots have skill.
I don't think India has done any of those.
Not even close.


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## Lion Of Pakistan

gogbot said:


> Listen I am not saying China will start to give orders to Pakistan, but am saying that Pakistan will be in China's pocket at that point.
> Just because its in the pocket of china doesn't mean China will Take advantage, But its still in China's Pocket.
> That's all i said.



If anyone is in someone's pocket.
its China in Pakistan's pocket. [no offense to China]
China relies on Pakistan for a port to trade through, since Pakistan allows China to trade through the Indus River.
Otherwise China would not have a safe way channel to trade through.
Since the trade ports like Shanghai are surrounded by US patrols.


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## graphican

xukxuk said:


> guys tell you something
> china start the j10 at early 80s put them in AF late 90s
> and start the 5th stealth fighter at early 90s
> we will start to see the news about china's 5th gen fighter before 2012
> with the boost of economy and one party political government
> you will be very surprised no late then 2020
> i am not judge which political system is better or not
> but you have to believe this
> "one party political government" if they want to do something they will finally get it
> one RICH "one party political government" if they want to do something they will do it faster then your thought



I second you on the speed with which China is prospering. China's growth rate is phenomenal and even if China had started its 5th Gen project in year 2005, I could believe they will make it ready by 2012.


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## BlackenTheSky

jf 17 is a 4th gen. Aircraft .and u cant say it 5th.but dont worry guys,i know with the future is becoming more dangerous from our competing side.,paf will be definately having any plan for the 5th gen. planes.


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## Chanakyaa

dez said:


> jf 17 is a 4th gen. Aircraft .and u cant say it 5th.but dont worry guys,i know with the future is becoming more dangerous from our competing side.,paf will be definately having any plan for the 5th gen. planes.



Well Pak having a 5th Gen Fighter, NOT before 2030.

How ?

See, except for f-22 none of the fighters are complete, even the f35 will take a good 5 Yrs before it will be really available to its customers.

Now In another thread dedicated to PAK FA, It har been roughly estimated that with the prototype ready it will take another 8-10 Yrs before the plane is actually inducted in IAF.

So PAF is already a good 10 Years behind as NO Prototype of JXX is in place, say even if its ready by 2015-2020, Pakistan will NOT get them before 2025-2030.

In any case PAF will lag atleast a Decade my friend atleast in case of 5th Gen Fighters.


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## BlackenTheSky

yeah i agree with you brother..but atleast PAF will have it...and i dont think in 2030.like you can say in 2020 PAF will be acquiped with 5th gen.becz PAF will not only rely on jf17,f 16 and j10 in the year of 2020


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## BlackenTheSky

XiNiX said:


> Well Pak having a 5th Gen Fighter, NOT before 2030.
> 
> How ?
> 
> See, except for f-22 none of the fighters are complete, even the f35 will take a good 5 Yrs before it will be really available to its customers.
> 
> Now In another thread dedicated to PAK FA, It har been roughly estimated that with the prototype ready it will take another 8-10 Yrs before the plane is actually inducted in IAF.
> 
> So PAF is already a good 10 Years behind as NO Prototype of JXX is in place, say even if its ready by 2015-2020, Pakistan will NOT get them before 2025-2030.
> 
> In any case PAF will lag atleast a Decade my friend atleast in case of 5th Gen Fighters.



yeah i agree with you brother..but atleast PAF will have it...and i dont think in 2030.like you can say in 2020 PAF will be acquiped with 5th gen.becz PAF will not only rely on jf17,f 16 and j10 in the year of 2020


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## Chanakyaa

dez said:


> yeah i agree with you brother..but atleast PAF will have it...and i dont think in 2030.like you can say in 2020 PAF will be acquiped with 5th gen.becz PAF will not only rely on jf17,f 16 and j10 in the year of 2020



Brother, 2020 is really very very optimistic.
See, J10 which has been developed and is in 100+ nos. will be available to you in 2015-2017.

JXX which is NOT even Modelled as a prototype cannot be available by 2020, it has to be a fair 7-10 yrs after that.
Russia, with all the know how is able to make PAKFA in over a 15Yr Span, So how can it be so early for China ?

Besides, IMO They will be Very costly for PAF and a more no. of J10 will be better til 2025.


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## BlackenTheSky

XiNiX said:


> Brother, 2020 is really very very optimistic.
> See, J10 which has been developed and is in 100+ nos. will be available to you in 2015-2017.
> 
> JXX which is NOT even Modelled as a prototype cannot be available by 2020, it has to be a fair 7-10 yrs after that.
> Russia, with all the know how is able to make PAKFA in over a 15Yr Span, So how can it be so early for China ?
> 
> Besides, IMO They will be Very costly for PAF and a more no. of J10 will be better til 2025.



yup i agree with you in that..ok so finally 2030...


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## Chanakyaa

dez said:


> yup i agree with you in that..ok so finally 2030...



well, we can only debate actually who knows the future ?


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## DemonHunter

Lion Of Pakistan said:


> 1.Indo-Pakistan War of 1965
> MM Alam took down 5 IAF jet fighters within 1 minute.
> Its a world record till today.
> Everyone had the same jet fighters.
> But how come MM Alam took down 5 in 1 minute?
> Because PAF pilots have skill.
> 
> 2. Pakistan is the only country to have shot down Israeli jet fighters.
> When Israel had better aircraft than Pakistan.
> What does this mean?
> Pakistan Air Force pilots have skill.
> I don't think India has done any of those.
> Not even close.



OK great achievement and gimmie a credible source for it
every Air forces have done some amazing things brotha.....and acc. to your story here that makes IAF less skilled and weaker than paf hmm? and what year are we living in 2009 not 1965 sir,,,whats the present condition of both air forces at present, if u compare....ur lil paf is nothing compared to IAF in technology, aircrafts, skilled pilots, achivements and numbers. We are recognized as one of the best and strongest airforces in the world and we do international excercises with superpowers like usa, russia and uk never seen paf in any of the air force excercizes in usa or in any other continent face the reality dear friend you guyz are nothing......just few american old f-16s aint gonna do anything and dont get very happy with few new F-16s that Uncle Sam is gonna give you country thats for keeping the lil kid(pakistan) happy so they can do anything they want in pakistan because you guyz are already under so much american pressure n they have shut your mouths with giving billions dollars of aid. Sorry for going lil off topic but just want you to wake up n face the reality and save ur country first from disappearing before comparing anything with growing superpowers like India. If any doubt about india being one of the superpowers in future google it n u will find thousands of sources telling you of the future n tell me if you find pakistan anywhere there

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## PakShaheen79

That starting post looks more like a fanboy thing than reality. Specs don't look like anywhere near 5th generation fighter. Only looks don't matter at all.


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## PakShaheen79

DemonHunter said:


> OK great achievement and gimmie a credible source for it
> every Air forces have done some amazing things brotha.....and acc. to your story here that makes IAF less skilled and weaker than paf hmm? and what year are we living in 2009 not 1965 sir,,,whats the present condition of both air forces at present, if u compare....ur lil *paf is nothing compared to IAF in technology, aircrafts, skilled pilots, achivements and numbers.*



I was about to go off this page before this peace of fantasy tale of your's drew my intentions.

1-Within next two to three years most of technical advantages of IAF will be matched by PAF. (AWACS,BVR, IFR all these are going to be inducted). Numbers are only thing where i can foresee IAF will be ahead of PAF but again... India has a large border with China as well and need assets there as well.


> We are recognized as one of the best and strongest airforces in the world and we do international excercises with superpowers like usa, russia and uk never seen paf in any of the air force* excercizes in usa or in any other continent:*lol: face the reality dear friend you guyz are nothing......



Just google "Bright Star 2009" and see where these exercise are being held and who is participating in this exercise you will know level of your ignorance..



> just few american old f-16s aint gonna do anything and dont get very happy with few new F-16s that Uncle Sam is gonna give you country thats for keeping the lil kid(pakistan) happy so they can do anything they want in pakistan because you guyz are already under so much american pressure n they have shut your mouths with giving billions dollars of aid.



What about FC-20 and JF-17? US gave F-16 to Pakistan to safe jobs at Texas  Just search some fact about how many Pakistan was offered with and how many it actually choosed. So pity little kid with little Airforce never allowed Mighty IAF to fulfill its dream of surgical strikes in Pakistan So what is point in having such ultra modern air force who cannot complete the job? US aid to Pakistan is money to compensate expenditure in WoT. 



> Sorry for going lil off topic but just want you to wake up n face the reality and save ur country first from disappearing before comparing anything with growing superpowers like India. If any doubt about india being one of the superpowers in future google it n u will find thousands of sources telling you of the future n tell me if you find pakistan anywhere there



No sir Pakistan will not anywhere near India...neither we can ( as our size is too small compared to India)..But let me tell you one thing for sure... Doesn't matter how strong India got in future Pakistan will always your first concern due to its military advancements. Your presence on this forum is a proof that Pakistan does matter a lot in your politics, thinking, defence, planning and all other aspects of governance.

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## desiman

PakShaheen79 said:


> I was about to go off this page before this peace of fantasy tale of your's drew my intentions.
> 
> 1-Within next two to three years most of technical advantages of IAF will be matched by PAF. (AWACS,BVR, IFR all these are going to be inducted). Numbers are only thing where i can foresee IAF will be ahead of PAF but again... India has a large border with China as well and need assets there as well.
> 
> 
> Just google "Bright Star 2009" and see where these exercise are being held and who is participating in this exercise you will know level of your ignorance..
> 
> 
> 
> What about FC-20 and JF-17? US gave F-16 to Pakistan to safe jobs at Texas  Just search some fact about how many Pakistan was offered with and how many it actually choosed. So pity little kid with little Airforce never allowed Mighty IAF to fulfill its dream of surgical strikes in Pakistan So what is point in having such ultra modern air force who cannot complete the job? US aid to Pakistan is money to compensate expenditure in WoT.
> 
> 
> 
> No sir Pakistan will not anywhere near India...neither we can ( as our size is too small compared to India)..But let me tell you one thing for sure... Doesn't matter how strong India got in future Pakistan will always your first concern due to its military advancements. Your presence on this forum is a proof that Pakistan does matter a lot in your politics, thinking, defence, planning and all other aspects of governance.



LOL i was also going to log off when i saw your comment brother. Let me get some facts straight - 

1) The IAF is miles ahead of the PAF in almost everyway. In its current form the PAF's best aircraft the F-16 is still without confirmed BVR and is almost sitting ducks to even small indian MIG-21. I will not even talk about the MKI but Mig 29k and the Mirage 2000 is already more than enough for Pakistan. With future "CONFIRMED " procurements of the LCA, MRCA, PAKFA and most likely the MCA, the edge that india has will only get bigger. Pakistan only have the FC-20 which is also not confirmed and the F-16 which pakistan does not get the latest version of. Please give me proof when you say that pakistan will equal India in any way. Brother i hope you know about the Indian Awacs which is far supior to the Swedish system that you are getting. Im sure if gambit was here he can explain to you why  I dont want to waste my time trying to convince you because i know you will find something to criticize me about. 
2) Pakistan has a great pilot training program but again just by plainly saying that your pilots are better than ours, you are not making any sense. With the current scenario of war with BVR and many other modern protocols, pilot training has to go hand in hand with tech. It does not matter if the pilot is very well trained if he is not on a BVR equipped jet. Even with that with the current advancement in jamming and other ways to negate a launched missile, its more of tech now that the person. Yes pilot skill does matter but again almost all major air forces train the pilots in similar ways with some differences. And i can tell you very categorically that the IAF training program is as in depth if not more that the best there is. 
3)If you know anything about rules of engagement and how countries have to conduct themselves, you would know why india did not launch air strikes in Pakistan after 26/11. Pakistan is nuclear equipped country with credible delivery systems and India cannot afford to loose a city to a miss timed pakistani adventure. India categorically knows that pakistan will use it nuclear option as soon as it sees that it is bound to loose and that is something India cannot afford currently. With India's current arsenal and its current capabilities India has sufficient means to conduct surgical strikes if it wants. 

India's military budget, its defense policies and everything else is 80% geared towards China, and pakistan is under the wrong impression that India is obsessed with Pakistan. It goes the other way and India has other plans in mind when it comes to foreign policy.

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## Novice09

PakShaheen79 said:


> Your presence on this forum is a proof that Pakistan does matter a lot in your politics, thinking, defence, planning and all other aspects of governance.



Yes it does ....

but now we are slowly changing our focus to catch up China ....  In this process, we are overlapping the technology and military capabilities of Pakistan.

and any one who thinks that Pakistan will not get 5th gen jets from China, feel free to dream so.....  for me the question is time ....

I can put  in close friends/allied's list without questioning...


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## Arsalan

Novice09 said:


> Yes it does ....
> 
> but now we are slowly changing our focus to catch up China ....  In this process, we are overlapping the technology and military capabilities of Pakistan.



well this is what i hve to agree to because it is true, but i wonder why you guys never tend to agree that there is still a long way to go... China is well ahead of india and is in no mode to sit and relax allowing india to catch-up. i dont see india over powering China anytime soon. moreover the new wave of US-India relations will also sound alarm bells in bejing making there pace go further up...

regards!


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## gogbot

arsalanaslam123 said:


> well this is what i hve to agree to because it is true, but i wonder why you guys never tend to agree that there is still a long way to go... China is well ahead of india and is in no mode to sit and relax allowing india to catch-up. i dont see india over powering China anytime soon. moreover the new wave of US-India relations will also sound alarm bells in bejing making there pace go further up...
> 
> regards!



you believe that China will surpass the US right, even though the US economy is 3 times larger than China's. and it not like the US is standing still.

If that is the case India has the same opportunity to surpass China as China has to surpass the US.

India's economy now is the same as china's 8 years ago. we are not that far behind and have a good chance of catching up.

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## gogbot

aimarraul said:


> yeah ,india has the opportunity to surpass china someday,but it will take much longer than 8 years to reach china's current number,cos rupee already appreciated a lot like RMB in the last 8 years,and RMB still conside as a undervalued currency,it will be the golden period for india when china achieve industrial upgrade



I agree India wont surpass China in such short time. Or Surpass at all. China may remain dominant with India always second or third. Or vice versa

But Most members on this forum always say China's economy is larger and you will never surpass. Then friendly mods close thread right at that point, preventing me from making my point. 
That US economy is also larger yet China believes it can surpass it.

I just wanted to get it out there that 


> India has the same opportunity to surpass China as China has to surpass the US.


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## Super Falcon

we need atleast 10 years to build 5 gen fighter jet


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## SBD-3

desidog said:


> LOL i was also going to log off when i saw your comment brother. Let me get some facts straight -


WDR.....these are more of your personal thoughts than facts 



> 1) The IAF is miles ahead of the PAF in almost everyway. In its current form the PAF's best aircraft the F-16 is still without confirmed BVR and is almost sitting ducks to even small indian MIG-21. I will not even talk about the MKI but Mig 29k and the Mirage 2000 is already more than enough for Pakistan. With future "CONFIRMED " procurements of the LCA, MRCA, PAKFA and most likely the MCA, the edge that india has will only get bigger. Pakistan only have the FC-20 which is also not confirmed and the F-16 which pakistan does not get the latest version of. Please give me proof when you say that pakistan will equal India in any way. Brother i hope you know about the Indian Awacs which is far Superior to the Swedish system that you are getting. Im sure if gambit was here he can explain to you why  I dont want to waste my time trying to convince you because i know you will find something to criticize me about.


No doubt IAF is *Miles* ahead of PAF (i dont know why do Indians use Miles when the International Standard is Kilometers)
anyways, let me tell you the facts.....IAF always housed superior ACs with greater strenght utill the induction of Viper with eventually gave PAF *qualitative* edge for a while......look in 65. IAF had latest and supposedly superior Mig-21s in its force. In 71 they had Gnat.........tell me any other event when they were inferior. And PAF knows that it can not match IAF peny to peny so it chooses best within limits.And is the operational range of phalcon that makes it superior?...........you should know that erieye also accompanies second to none advanced technology so nothing "edgy" about falcon.



> 2) Pakistan has a great pilot training program but again just by plainly saying that your pilots are better than ours, you are not making any sense. With the current scenario of war with BVR and many other modern protocols, pilot training has to go hand in hand with tech. It does not matter if the pilot is very well trained if he is not on a BVR equipped jet. Even with that with the current advancement in jamming and other ways to negate a launched missile, its more of tech now that the person. Yes pilot skill does matter but again almost all major air forces train the pilots in similar ways with some differences. And i can tell you very categorically that the IAF training program is as in depth if not more that the best there is.


to be able to exploit the AC to its full potential a good pilot is necessary. Given no considerable tech advantage the "piloting" does play an effective role. The plane itself is just junk....its brain my dear that does the wonder....With JF and Bl 52 coming in The so called BVR "Advantage" will fade for IAF. One thing must be kept in mind.....The far from target you shoot....the more time he has to react....the more chances of a miss...Remember its the Jockey skill that adds to the horse to make it a winner a jokey less "superhorse" can't win


> 3)If you know anything about rules of engagement and how countries have to conduct themselves, *you would know why india did not launch air strikes in Pakistan after 26/11*. Pakistan is nuclear equipped country with credible delivery systems and India cannot afford to loose a city to a miss timed pakistani adventure. India categorically knows that pakistan will use it nuclear option as soon as it sees that it is bound to loose and that is something India cannot afford currently. With India's current arsenal and its current capabilities India has sufficient means to conduct surgical strikes if it wants.


 read it out yourself
Indian SU-30 MKI and Mirage 2000-H aircrafts intrude into Pakistani airspace | Abdullah Saad
they tried but were intercepted, and thus, forced to return


> India's military budget, its defense policies and everything else is 80&#37; geared towards China, and pakistan is under the wrong impression that India is obsessed with Pakistan. It goes the other way and India has other plans in mind when it comes to foreign policy.


Hump well India is obsessed with every country that neighbors it look at Bungladesh, Bhutan, Srilanka the situation speaks for itself

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## dbc

desidog said:


> Brother i hope you know about the Indian Awacs which is *far supior* to the Swedish system that you are getting. Im sure if gambit was here he can explain to you why  I dont want to waste my time trying to convince you because i know you will find something to criticize me about.



Don't get cocky, the Erieye is a great system for Pakistan's needs. 
I challenge you or anyone else to prove the Phalcon is "far supior" to the Erieye.


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## arya

sky17 said:


> Nothing is impossible. Inshallah PAF will have its own 5th generation fighter air craft.




aameen

lol


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## Tomahawk

arya said:


> aameen



Keep praying for us!


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## Sapper

Tomahawk said:


> Keep praying for us!



Thats what Pakistanis are great at ... praying and asking for prays.

Dont get me wrong dear, it is indeed needed, but not more than the actual task of helping ourselves. Dear, encourage people to join NESCOM, encourage youngsters to study engineering, and work in Pakistan for our industrial growth. Encourage entrepreneurship and built civilian infrastructure. You know why US, China and Europe has such high tech and such fast development times for their war machines, its because they have huge civilian infrastructure helping its military infrastructure to reduce development time.

Unless we become a truly Industrialized society, dreams like producing cutting edge military machines on our own will remain dreams.

May God help us in changing our destiny. Ameen.

Regards,
Sapper

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## warlock

Sapper said:


> Thats what Pakistanis are great at ... praying and asking for prays.
> 
> Dont get me wrong dear, it is indeed needed, but not more than the actual task of helping ourselves. Dear, encourage people to join NESCOM, encourage youngsters to study engineering, and work in Pakistan for our industrial growth. Encourage entrepreneurship and built civilian infrastructure. You know why US, China and Europe has such high tech and such fast development times for their war machines, its because they have huge civilian infrastructure helping its military infrastructure to reduce development time.
> 
> Unless we become a truly Industrialized society, dreams like producing cutting edge military machines on our own will remain dreams.
> 
> May God help us in changing our destiny. Ameen.
> 
> Regards,
> Sapper



a lot of us Indians hate Pakistan for its stand on kashmir and support to terror in India... but i can assure you.. None of us would be any less happy if they saw Pakistan developing and progressing...

A modern-progressive-stable Pakistan is best for India than any other country in the world...


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## desiman

hasnain0099 said:


> WDR.....these are more of your personal thoughts than facts
> 
> 
> No doubt IAF is *Miles* ahead of PAF (i dont know why do Indians use Miles when the International Standard is Kilometers)
> anyways, let me tell you the facts.....IAF always housed superior ACs with greater strenght utill the induction of Viper with eventually gave PAF *qualitative* edge for a while......look in 65. IAF had latest and supposedly superior Mig-21s in its force. In 71 they had Gnat.........tell me any other event when they were inferior. And PAF knows that it can not match IAF peny to peny so it chooses best within limits.And is the operational range of phalcon that makes it superior?...........you should know that erieye also accompanies second to none advanced technology so nothing "edgy" about falcon.
> 
> 
> to be able to exploit the AC to its full potential a good pilot is necessary. Given no considerable tech advantage the "piloting" does play an effective role. The plane itself is just junk....its brain my dear that does the wonder....With JF and Bl 52 coming in The so called BVR "Advantage" will fade for IAF. One thing must be kept in mind.....The far from target you shoot....the more time he has to react....the more chances of a miss...Remember its the Jockey skill that adds to the horse to make it a winner a jokey less "superhorse" can't win
> 
> read it out yourself
> Indian SU-30 MKI and Mirage 2000-H aircrafts intrude into Pakistani airspace | Abdullah Saad
> they tried but were intercepted, and thus, forced to return
> 
> Hump well India is obsessed with every country that neighbors it look at Bungladesh, Bhutan, Srilanka the situation speaks for itself



Brother the source of the article you posted is nothing but crap if i can use the word. Think in your head once, how would anyone even know of such confidential details ? secondly your own president said that it was a technical fault. number 3 tell me why would 2 MKI allows non bvr f-17 and the outdates J-7 come close to it. Brother as per the rules of engagement which I spoke about earlier, if the MKI fired at the on coming PAF jets, it would initiate a full blown response from the PAF, which could lead to a full blown war. Just because some PAF jets were able to intercept the MKI does not mean they were better or that Pakistani pilots were amazing. Brother if the MKI wanted the J-7 would not even get close to the MKI let alone try to shoot it down and the famed Pakistani F-16 would also face tough circumstances. Please think before you post. The link you posted is a total waster, it uses Wikipedia as referces, which basically talks a lot about its credibility. Brother tell me when is Pakistan getting the B-52 ? I have never heard of that ? ?where are you getting that from, Zaid hamid ? lol The JF-17 will yes give the PAF some new tech, but the edge over the IAF, lol I really really doubt that. Again until future blocks up with more modern tech, the JF-17 even with all its fanfare is only as good as BVR equipped Bisons or jaguars. With confirmed deliveries of many more MKIs, LCA, MRCA, more phalcons , MIG29K, and projects like MCA, and PAKFA, the edge will only getter bigger for India, its a fact bro, Pakistan cannot compete with India, Indian economy is atleast 10 times bigger that the Pakistani economy and the resources avaible to the IAF will allow the IAF to always maintain a huge lead when its comes to Technology and number. Hope you agree this time.


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## aimarraul

desidog said:


> With confirmed deliveries of many more MKI&#8217;s, LCA, MRCA, more phalcons , MIG29K, and projects like MCA, and PAKFA, the edge will only getter bigger for India



you forgot one point,most of these things didn't delivery yet
the edge will olny get bigger if PA and PLA are marking time
and india don't have any edge in the long war if she have to buy most of these things

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## lockh33d

This post has been deleted by the user.


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## moha199

a1b2c145 said:


> jf-17x and jxx are beautiful dreams



I totally agree with you BUT dreaming is good to make them real, Dream high so you achieve high. For a country like Pakistan, becoming a nuclear power was dream!, For a country like Pakistan making tanks was a dream! For a country like pakistan, making fighter jet was a dream! For a country like Pakistan making subs was a dream...... I know we Pakistanis are good at dreaming but you guys forget that we are good at making them true as well.

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## grey boy 2

moha199 said:


> I totally agree with you BUT dreaming is good to make them real, Dream high so you achieve high. For a country like Pakistan, becoming a nuclear power was dream!, For a country like Pakistan making tanks was a dream! For a country like pakistan, making fighter jet was a dream! For a country like Pakistan making subs was a dream...... I know we Pakistanis are good at dreaming but you guys forget that we are good at making them true as well.



Well said buddy, just keep making good dreams come true,

Its always good for your enemies to underestimate Pakistan.

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## MZUBAIR

desidog said:


> Brother the source of the article you posted is nothing but crap if i can use the word. Think in your head once, how would anyone even know of such confidential details ? secondly your own president said that it was a technical fault. number 3 tell me why would 2 MKI allows *non bvr f-17 *and the outdates J-7 come close to it. Brother as per the rules of engagement which I spoke about earlier, if the MKI fired at the on coming PAF jets, it would initiate a full blown response from the PAF, which could lead to a full blown war. Just because some PAF jets were able to intercept the MKI does not mean they were better or that Pakistani pilots were amazing. *Brother if the MKI wanted the J-7 would not even get close to the MKI let alone try to shoot it down and the famed Pakistani F-16 would also face tough circumstances. Please think before you post.* The link you posted is a total waster, it uses Wikipedia as referces, which basically talks a lot about its credibility. Brother tell me when is Pakistan getting the B-52 ? I have never heard of that ? ?where are you getting that from, Zaid hamid ? lol The JF-17 will yes give the PAF some new tech, but the edge over the IAF, lol I really really doubt that. Again until future blocks up with more modern tech, the JF-17 even with all its fanfare is only as good as BVR equipped Bisons or jaguars. With confirmed deliveries of many more MKI&#8217;s, LCA, MRCA, more phalcons , MIG29K, and projects like MCA, and PAKFA, the edge will only getter bigger for India, it&#8217;s a fact bro, Pakistan cannot compete with India, Indian economy is atleast 10 times bigger that the Pakistani economy and the resources avaible to the IAF will allow the IAF to always maintain a huge lead when its comes to Technology and number. Hope you agree this time.



U hav MKI, best jet, batter then F-22 , nothing cant beat it hahahaha ....blah blah blah .....u r the only person think from head...only nation think from bain. bla blah......

Come up boy stop living in dreams.

Its fan boy remarks.....MKI have edge coz of long range radar and weapons. Thats fact. But it never means that PAF hav no counter strategy for that.
Surly they hav.....nither I know that nor u......

In my observation I think MKI radar edge will go equal or less with PAF AEW&C (range more then 450 KM) and PAF already have enough wepons that can destroy target (jet, rocket , missel) even 150 KM - 200 KM away in air.



> *non bvr f-17 *


Corect ur record and notedown *JF-17 have BVR Avonics that ranges more then 100 KM.*
U were talking abt J-7......Pakistan grounded all old F-7.
*The latest F-7PG are for interception when enemy jet or missel come closer to any city.*



> Brother tell me when is Pakistan getting the B-52 ? I have never heard of that ? ?where are you getting that from, Zaid hamid ?



Dont talk to much unless u dont know....
*First 50 JF-17 are of Bomber class replacing A5 bombers......*
Later clases willbe of Multirole for Air force and navy with western radar and avoinics.

*Bombs with first JF-17 are advanced and modren...no need for B-52.* Few bomb are from US which already recieved. and some are made by Pakistan ranges more then 100 KM

like 
H-4_MUPSOW

Bomb list of JF-17


> Bombs:
> 
> Unguided bombs:
> Mk-82, Mk-84 general purpose bombs
> Matra Durandal anti-runway bomb
> CBU-100/Mk-20 Rockeye anti-armour cluster bomb
> Precision guided munitions (PGM):
> GBU-10, GBU-12, LT-2 laser-guided bombs
> H-2, H-4 electro-optically guided,[8] LS-6 satellite-guided glide bombs [91]
> Satellite-guided bombs [8]




Let the next batch come.......
*PAF already designing new batch of JF-17 with air superiority avionics to counter MKI.*


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## Novice09

moha199 said:


> I totally agree with you BUT dreaming is good to make them real, Dream high so you achieve high. For a country like Pakistan, becoming a nuclear power was dream!, For a country like Pakistan making tanks was a dream! For a country like pakistan, making fighter jet was a dream! For a country like Pakistan making subs was a dream...... I know we Pakistanis are good at dreaming but you guys forget that we are good at making them true as well.



My maths teacher always told me that dream as as high as you can and work hard to achieve it. The day you look at your position (in case of a failure) you will find yourself ahead of those who have dreamed for inferior and have achieved them. 

I always criticize those people who cries about reverse engineering, theft/copy of design and so on.....  

These things are not easy as photocopying a document....
You need a pool of engineers, technicians and secret agents to do such things...

US and Russia built their defense industry by getting several technologies from Nazi Germany ....

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## MZUBAIR

Novice09 said:


> My maths teacher always told me that dream as as high as you can and work hard to achieve it. The day you look at your position (in case of a failure) you will find yourself ahead of those who have dreamed for inferior and have achieved them.
> 
> I always criticize those people who cries about reverse engineering, theft/copy of design and so on.....
> 
> These things are not easy as photocopying a document....
> You need a pool of engineers, technicians and secret agents to do such things...
> 
> US and Russia built their defense industry by getting several technologies from Nazi Germany ....



Every body do like that ....even USA and russia copy each other.
if they put ristrictions on the copy they will also not proceed in R&D


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## lockh33d

Too bad the J-11 counters the MKI, making India give up its most advanced Su-27 variant throne.


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## gogbot

lockh33d said:


> Too bad the J-11 counters the MKI, making India give up its most advanced Su-27 variant throne.



The MKI is an SU-30 variant.
And is still considered the best Su-30 out there
And it still Employs the best Radar in the sub-continent. As well as more powerful engines as well as Trust vectoring.
Has canards

How exactly did the J-11 an su-27 derivative
trump that ?


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## SBD-3

desidog said:


> Brother the source of the article you posted is nothing but crap if i can use the word. Think in your head once, how would anyone even know of such confidential details ? secondly your own president said that it was a technical fault. number 3 tell me why would 2 MKI allows non bvr f-17 and the outdates J-7 come close to it. Brother as per the rules of engagement which I spoke about earlier, if the MKI fired at the on coming PAF jets, it would initiate a full blown response from the PAF, which could lead to a full blown war. Just because some PAF jets were able to intercept the MKI does not mean they were better or that Pakistani pilots were amazing. Brother if the MKI wanted the J-7 would not even get close to the MKI let alone try to shoot it down and the famed Pakistani F-16 would also face tough circumstances. Please think before you post. The link you posted is a total waster, it uses Wikipedia as referces, which basically talks a lot about its credibility. Brother tell me when is Pakistan getting the B-52 ? I have never heard of that ? ?where are you getting that from, Zaid hamid ? lol The JF-17 will yes give the PAF some new tech, but the edge over the IAF, lol I really really doubt that. Again until future blocks up with more modern tech, the JF-17 even with all its fanfare is only as good as BVR equipped Bisons or jaguars. With confirmed deliveries of many more MKIs, LCA, MRCA, more phalcons , MIG29K, and projects like MCA, and PAKFA, the edge will only getter bigger for India, its a fact bro, Pakistan cannot compete with India, Indian economy is atleast 10 times bigger that the Pakistani economy and the resources avaible to the IAF will allow the IAF to always maintain a huge lead when its comes to Technology and number. Hope you agree this time.



I hope you would have gone though all of my post and more importantly through the link as well
any ways...........here is a credible link of the incident for you
BBC NEWS | South Asia | India 'entered Pakistan airspace'


> India 'entered Pakistan airspace'
> Pakistan has said two Indian warplanes violated its airspace on Saturday, but that there was no cause for alarm as the incursions had been "inadvertent".
> 
> They flew up to 7.4km into the Lahore and Azad Kashmir sectors, it said.
> 
> Information Minister Sherry Rehman said Pakistan's air force remained "on alert and ready to face any eventuality, but we do not expect this to escalate".
> 
> An Indian Air Force spokesman denied the allegation, saying "*there has not been any airspace violation*".
> 
> Wing Commander Mahesh Upasani told Reuters news agency that the Pakistani accusations were an attempt to divert "the attention of the people towards something which has not happened".
> 
> Last week, India's foreign minister denied making a "threatening" phone call that prompted Pakistan to put its forces on alert following the co-ordinated attacks by militants in Mumbai, which left more than 170 people dead.
> 
> Pranab Mukherjee said the call was a hoax which Pakistan was using to divert attention from the fact its nationals had been involved in the attacks.
> 
> 'No need for alarm'
> 
> The director of public relations for the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) said the Indian aircraft had violated Pakistani airspace on two separate occasions on Saturday.
> 
> "Both the Indian aircraft entered into Pakistan's airspace between two to four nautical miles at two different sectors," Air Commodore Humyun Viqar told Associated Press of Pakistan news agency.
> 
> He said Pakistani jets had responded, forcing the Indian aircraft to turn back.
> 
> Pakistan's information minister confirmed the incursion and said officials had "spoken to the Indian air force *and they (IAF) have said it was inadvertent*".
> 
> "Our air force is on alert and ready to face any eventuality, but we do not expect this to escalate," Ms Rehman said. "There is no need for alarm."
> 
> Correspondents say the Indian air force has been very careful in recent years to stop its warplanes from straying into Pakistani airspace.
> 
> Two jets were shot down during the Kargil conflict in 1999, although India says they were in its own airspace at the time.


now I hope you understand now.........

Coming to you BVR point.................you mentioned in post that a *BVR* equipped MKI wouldn't have let Vipers and and skybolts even come close so how would you describe PAF BVRs dealing with IAF? so I hope I have now quoted a "reliable" link for you


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## emotionless_teenage

chinese flanker version does not have integrated targetting pod,doesn't have TVC and has no aesa radar installed(MKI mk3 would introduce aesa radar)

...and why did this is mentioned in JF-17 thread


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## desiman

MZUBAIR said:


> U hav MKI, best jet, batter then F-22 , nothing cant beat it hahahaha ....blah blah blah .....u r the only person think from head...only nation think from bain. bla blah......
> 
> Come up boy stop living in dreams.
> 
> Its fan boy remarks.....MKI have edge coz of long range radar and weapons. Thats fact. But it never means that PAF hav no counter strategy for that.
> Surly they hav.....nither I know that nor u......
> 
> In my observation I think MKI radar edge will go equal or less with PAF AEW&C (range more then 450 KM) and PAF already have enough wepons that can destroy target (jet, rocket , missel) even 150 KM - 200 KM away in air.
> 
> 
> Corect ur record and notedown *JF-17 have BVR Avonics that ranges more then 100 KM.*
> U were talking abt J-7......Pakistan grounded all old F-7.
> *The latest F-7PG are for interception when enemy jet or missel come closer to any city.*
> 
> 
> 
> Dont talk to much unless u dont know....
> *First 50 JF-17 are of Bomber class replacing A5 bombers......*
> Later clases willbe of Multirole for Air force and navy with western radar and avoinics.
> 
> *Bombs with first JF-17 are advanced and modren...no need for B-52.* Few bomb are from US which already recieved. and some are made by Pakistan ranges more then 100 KM
> 
> like
> H-4_MUPSOW
> 
> Bomb list of JF-17
> 
> 
> 
> Let the next batch come.......
> *PAF already designing new batch of JF-17 with air superiority avionics to counter MKI.*



Ok my man I will counter all your argument, however baseless there are because I think you are under the wrong pretext that only you know what you know the truth 

1)the article posted by hasnain , If you actually read the article that your posting from the BBC, the first line itself say PAKISTAN HAS SAID. Whatever happiness your getting out of the fact the a F-7 and f-16 were able to drive an MKI back is not only half true at most. If you want search the net over this incident, your own president countered this weird claim by the PAF and said that there was no IAF entering Pakistani air space and it was just a technical thing. I dont want to try to explain what he meant by that because I know you dont want to understand. Keep living your dream that the MKI sucks. 

2) Air forces around the world are known to play this game of releasing conflicting news and then to glorify itself. The PAF does it and so does the IAF, air combat and air warfare is such a topic that it can be interpreted in many ways. Even if I was to believe you that the MKI were coming to bomb Pakistan or something like, what makes you think that 2 MKI fully equipped to attack would turn back seeing some F-7s or old F-16 ????? You cant just go around shooting down everything you see. Please understand that, the superiority of the PAF is not proved in any way by the MKIs turning back. 

3) Stop glorifying the JF-17 this way please, you are totally ruining the reputation of the fine jet. Nothing is confirmed till now about the JF-17, only around 10 of them exist, all with Chinese avionics and some Russian components. No future block, upgrade, stealth features of any other fanboys dream has been stated let alone confirmed. I am really not sure where you are getting your information from. 

4) the so called h-4 is a precision guided bomb not air to air bvr missile, big difference buddy, I really hope you know, and I dont plan to waste my time trying to explain it to you because I know you will counter it with something. 

5)where are you getting info like Pakistan is already redesigning the JF-17 ??????????? Pakistan had almost nil contribution to the JF-17 program, which is basically the brainchild of China. Designing a new airframe is not like making clay for kids, and redesigning one is even more complex, again I hope you know that also. 

6) You talk about PAF having this and having that , I think your forgetting that whatever the PAF has India has either many times more or superior tech. Do you think if IAF actually planned to attack Pakistan it would just send 2 MKIs, common man I dont have to explain such kidy things to you. The PAF is truly a magnificent force, and I have great respect for it, but such childish comment like yours totally put a blemish on the PAF. Think before you post something 

7) last and most important point, before you question my qualifications have a look at your own post, its nothing but dreams and fanboy material. Brother I have more experience in the aviation industry than you can imagine, I dont want to boost but I can just say this, I really do know what I am talking about, unlike you

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## desiman

lockh33d said:


> Too bad the J-11 counters the MKI, making India give up its most advanced Su-27 variant throne.



just want to say this about this post - PROVE IT


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## Barrett

With all the technology IAF has they still don't have quality pilots...I don't understand that why every time the IAF violates the Pakistani Air Space they are forced to return. PAF will protect its territory even with hot air balloons probably that's the difference in the mind sets of the pilots and the deciding factor. When it comes to Air Combats between the two, History speaks for itself.


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## desiman

Barrett said:


> With all the technology IAF has they still don't have quality pilots...I don't understand that why every time the IAF violates the Pakistani Air Space they are forced to return. PAF will protect its territory even with hot air balloons probably that's the difference in the mind sets of the pilots and the deciding factor. When it comes to Air Combats between the two, History speaks for itself.



Really dont behave like a child on a forum thats made for adults, if you want to pass you opinion about something prove it, just by saying that IAF does not have quality pilots your only satisfying yourself, the truth is way off brother


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## Haanzo

> With all the technology IAF has they still don't have quality pilots...I don't understand that why every time the IAF violates the Pakistani Air Space they are forced to return. PAF will protect its territory even with hot air balloons probably that's the difference in the mind sets of the pilots and the deciding factor. When it comes to Air Combats between the two, History speaks for itself.



realistically speaking YOU ARE WRONG ... if you knew anything about air combat you would not have posted anything of that sort ....you know shooting down an enemy aircraft in PEACETIME is a big violation and will surely spill into war and not even PAF is allowed to do that ....*the pilots have to get a clearance from HQ before shooting down an enemy aircraft* ...its not their decision, BVR capable IAF fighters vs present pakistani aircraft will not be a FAIR game your planes could have been picked out like toys but sadly the AF has no authority in this regard its always the politician ....and for quality of pilots lets say for a moment hypothetically PAF pilots ARE BETTER but the reality is dogfighting days are over my friend .... now its only technology

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## emotionless_teenage

how do one know which pilot is better?

seriously,please speak about fact and please stick to the topic


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## naseebkhanniazi

Haanzo said:


> realistically speaking YOU ARE WRONG ... if you knew anything about air combat you would not have posted anything of that sort ....you know shooting down an enemy aircraft in PEACETIME is a big violation and will surely spill into war and not even PAF is allowed to do that ....*the pilots have to get a clearance from HQ before shooting down an enemy aircraft* ...its not their decision, BVR capable IAF fighters vs present pakistani aircraft will not be a FAIR game your planes could have been picked out like toys but sadly the AF has no authority in this regard its always the politician ....and for quality of pilots lets say for a moment hypothetically PAF pilots ARE BETTER but the reality is dogfighting days are over my friend .... now its only technology



at this time IAF is better then PAF main reason is radar bvr capablity when PAF fulfill this gape then they stop IAF fighter's after this they still need havey fighter to attack

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## Haanzo

> saare sapne poore nahe hote. so wakeup



if pakistan is really determined they can make it but HOW GOOD CAN THEY MAKE IT THATS THE POINT .... india has been designing and building aircraft from some time but it still not able to make a respectable fighter aircraft into production ...at least untill now ...hope it changes soon


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## Young-khan

Haanzo said:


> if pakistan is really determined they can make it but HOW GOOD CAN THEY MAKE IT THATS THE POINT .... india has been designing and building aircraft from some time but it still not able to make a respectable fighter aircraft into production ...at least untill now ...hope it changes soon



Absolutelty right india has failed in every project that it has started.
Pakistan on the other hand sought help from china and has absorbed knowledge base from various school of thoughts, from saab to dassault to lockheed martin. 

Pakistan hasnt decided to start a project such as jets from scratch as we understand that its a long a hard path, so it has taken one step at the time.

LCA Tejas another failed project that will go ahead to save face, so much for it that its not even wanted by iaf though its being forced upon them. however thunder is flying and progressing slowly but nicely. It serves our defence needs, paf doesnt currently need a heavy strike aircraft as we have missiles for that. 

Now is the time for total airdefence, our numbers and quality has slipped over the years due to sanctions and thunder is just perfect for all those reasons. It will progress on to be a very decent platform but as of now for air defence / intercept is a big plus with bvr for paf.


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## Barrett

desidog said:


> Really dont behave like a child on a forum thats made for adults, if you want to pass you opinion about something prove it, just by saying that IAF does not have quality pilots your only satisfying yourself, the truth is way off brother



In reply to a kid behaving like an adult 
I'm hopeful that the following stats will come handy 

IAF in 1965 Lost (4 Mysters, 4 Vampires, 16 Hunters, 3 Canberra, 6 GNAT, 1 Auster)

*Total 34*

PAF in 1965 Lost (13 Sabres & 1 Starfighter)

*Total 14*

IAF in 1971 Lost (8 Migs, 19 Sukhoi-7, 23 Hunters, 5 Canberras, 3 GNAT, 5 Mystere IVa, 1 Vampire, 4 HF-24 & 1 Alize)

*Total 69*

PAF in 1971 Lost (14 F-86 Sabres, 5 B-57, 3 Starfighters & 4 F-6)

*Total 26*

Source: : Bharat-Rakshak.com - The Consortium of Indian Military and Defence Websites :

I will not quote other neutral sources which narrate an even more haunting story.Having said that i will not ignore the fact that at present IAF is far ahead when it comes to technology, but even if i want to i cant forget the past. 

Cheers


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## deckingraj

> Absolutelty right india has failed in every project that it has started.



Dont want to burst your bubble but It clearly shows your lack of knowledge about India's defence programmes and its successes...



> Pakistan on the other hand sought help from china and has absorbed knowledge base from various school of thoughts, from saab to dassault to lockheed martin.



Great..but care to explain what other option do you have...Do you have that kind of money that India invested in her so called failed projects??? I hope you are not saying that Pakistan don't have the caliber to make a fighter pilot on her own??? I dont think so becuase if india can do it pakistan can do it as well...However they need to figure out from where the heck money will come...Current situation don't look promising...




> Pakistan hasnt decided to start a project such as jets from scratch as we understand that its a long a hard path, so it has taken one step at the time.


The step that is looking right to you now may prove wrong in the future if for some reason china turns her back on you...Anyways that may or may not happen but self-sufficiency is the only way for a secure and reliable future...Geo-politcs changes..Have changed in the past will change in future...



> LCA Tejas another failed project that will go ahead to save face, so much for it that its not even wanted by iaf though its being forced upon them. however thunder is flying and progressing slowly but nicely. It serves our defence needs, paf doesnt currently need a heavy strike aircraft as we have missiles for that.



LCA tejas is a failed project...great....again clearly shows your knowledge...I would have appreciated if you would have said its a delayed project but if it makes you feel happy...so be it...However lets say for the sake of argument that it is a failed project...but do you know how much time india has invested in it??? What does that mean ..it means we are a step closer to having our own indegenous fighter planes...now complement it with current geo-politics where we have the luxuary of getting latest technology from US, Russia, Israel and EU ...where do you see india going???? 

P.S : I have ignored your comment of IAF being forced to take LCA as i honestly dont want to consider you a troll...




> Now is the time for total airdefence, our numbers and quality has slipped over the years due to sanctions and thunder is just perfect for all those reasons. It will progress on to be a very decent platform but as of now for air defence / intercept is a big plus with bvr for paf.



Good for you...and best of luck to achieve that....Now lets get back to topic please...


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## deckingraj

> In reply to a kid behaving like an adult
> I'm hopeful that the following stats will come handy
> 
> IAF in 1965 Lost (4 Mysters, 4 Vampires, 16 Hunters, 3 Canberra, 6 GNAT, 1 Auster)
> 
> Total 34
> 
> PAF in 1965 Lost (13 Sabres & 1 Starfighter)
> 
> Total 14
> 
> IAF in 1971 Lost (8 Migs, 19 Sukhoi-7, 23 Hunters, 5 Canberras, 3 GNAT, 5 Mystere IVa, 1 Vampire, 4 HF-24 & 1 Alize)
> 
> Total 69
> 
> PAF in 1971 Lost (14 F-86 Sabres, 5 B-57, 3 Starfighters & 4 F-6)
> 
> Total 26
> 
> Source: : Bharat-Rakshak.com - The Consortium of Indian Military and Defence Websites :
> 
> I will not quote other neutral sources which narrate an even more haunting story.Having said that i will not ignore the fact that at present IAF is far ahead when it comes to technology, but even if i want to i cant forget the past.
> 
> Cheers





Wow man PAF really beat the **** out of IAF..poor IAF..hopefully we would have learned from past...Anyways good for you...If this comment makes you happy then can we please go back to topic??? I dont have much knowledge about fighter planes and would really like to learn from this thread about Jf17X..so its a humble request not to derail thread any more...


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## Novice09

deckingraj said:


> I dont have much knowledge about fighter planes and would really like to learn from this thread about Jf17X..so its a humble request not to derail thread any more...



if they are talking about making their current JF17 a 5th gen jet then they are just dreaming. 

Yes, they could work with China to develop a 5th gen jet if they want it to be a part of PAF b4 2020.


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## Novice09

Barrett said:


> In reply to a kid behaving like an adult
> I'm hopeful that the following stats will come handy
> 
> IAF in 1965 Lost (4 Mysters, 4 Vampires, 16 Hunters, 3 Canberra, 6 GNAT, 1 Auster)
> 
> *Total 34*
> 
> PAF in 1965 Lost (13 Sabres & 1 Starfighter)
> 
> *Total 14*
> 
> IAF in 1971 Lost (8 Migs, 19 Sukhoi-7, 23 Hunters, 5 Canberras, 3 GNAT, 5 Mystere IVa, 1 Vampire, 4 HF-24 & 1 Alize)
> 
> *Total 69*
> 
> PAF in 1971 Lost (14 F-86 Sabres, 5 B-57, 3 Starfighters & 4 F-6)
> 
> *Total 26*
> 
> Source: : Bharat-Rakshak.com - The Consortium of Indian Military and Defence Websites :
> 
> I will not quote other neutral sources which narrate an even more haunting story.Having said that i will not ignore the fact that at present IAF is far ahead when it comes to technology, but even if i want to i cant forget the past.
> 
> Cheers



thanks for this information... 

So who won these wars (1965 and 1971)???

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## PakShaheen79

Novice09 said:


> thanks for this information...
> 
> So who won these wars (1965 and 1971)???



He posted result of battles between IAF and PAF in these wars from BR.. Wining WAR is more of political thing than military. 1965 objective was to survive India attack and we did.

1971-> a political debacle at home made Pakistan lost a war.


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## Novice09

PakShaheen79 said:


> He posted result of battles between IAF and PAF in these wars from BR.. Wining WAR is more of political thing than military. 1965 objective was to survive India attack and we did.
> 
> 1971-> a political debacle at home made Pakistan lost a war.



You would surely agree that winning a war is more important than losing 99&#37; battles during that war...


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## Honor

A.V. said:


> friends people here talk about building a 5th gen airplane just as if its a matter of few days.
> howmany countries in the world can build a 5th gen aircraft ?just look at the us with their money and knowledge how much time it took to get the raptor to the sky,even the russian superior design its still working hard to get a 5th gen plane flying.
> 
> people talk about stealthy features what kind of stealth does the new chinese aircraft gong to get ,the pakfa,lmfi both will have plasma stealth,the raptor and jsf have radar absorbing technology what kind of staelth feature does china posses?
> 
> i the next 10 years there are going to be very few 5th gen planes.both the us and russia started work in the early 90 s and we will see only these aircrafts in the next 10-15 years, if china starts working from today i will still take 20 years mininum to get the plane flying.
> 
> thanx



Agree... China will not have 5th generation planes soon.


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## Novice09

Honor said:


> Agree... China will not have 5th generation planes soon.




and some Pakistanis (1 for sure) has listed them in the list of FJs PAF will have in 2015


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## deckingraj

> and some Pakistanis (1 for sure) has listed them in the list of FJs PAF will have in 2015



Ignore them buddy...There are many who just post out of sheer emotion and national jingoism...Let them live in their bubble...Do correct them if they seems genuinely interested but my advice ignore the trolls...


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## desiman

Barrett said:


> In reply to a kid behaving like an adult
> I'm hopeful that the following stats will come handy
> 
> IAF in 1965 Lost (4 Mysters, 4 Vampires, 16 Hunters, 3 Canberra, 6 GNAT, 1 Auster)
> 
> *Total 34*
> 
> PAF in 1965 Lost (13 Sabres & 1 Starfighter)
> 
> *Total 14*
> 
> IAF in 1971 Lost (8 Migs, 19 Sukhoi-7, 23 Hunters, 5 Canberras, 3 GNAT, 5 Mystere IVa, 1 Vampire, 4 HF-24 & 1 Alize)
> 
> *Total 69*
> 
> PAF in 1971 Lost (14 F-86 Sabres, 5 B-57, 3 Starfighters & 4 F-6)
> 
> *Total 26*
> 
> Source: : Bharat-Rakshak.com - The Consortium of Indian Military and Defence Websites :
> 
> I will not quote other neutral sources which narrate an even more haunting story.Having said that i will not ignore the fact that at present IAF is far ahead when it comes to technology, but even if i want to i cant forget the past.
> 
> Cheers



Here read this, i will post IAF losses after this also to satisfy your ego - 

http://webstats.ordersofbattle.darkscape.net/site/cimh/iaf/IAF_1965war_kills.pdf

This is a verified source, with names and acutal incidents of the losses to the PAF, unlike the dream sequence told by the PAF. If you actually study both wars brother, the IAF had full air control over east pakistan within 2 days of the war and had negated any advantage of the PAF in the west also, again trying to explain all this to you is useless but be careful when you make such claims.


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## vizier

There are many F-15 look alikes especially from front like Mig 31, Yak 141 which can have a frontal aspect rcs reduction upgrade similar to the silent eagle. It would be cheap and everyone will buy it against full aspect stealth 5th gens in large quantities. 

J 10s or Jf 17s are more maneuvrable since their design is younger than f 15 shape but they need ecm packages and rwrs that would detect the direction of opposing aesa radars to focus their own beams towards that direction with maximum power to track low observable threats if they open their radars.


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## Barrett

desidog said:


> Here read this, i will post IAF losses after this also to satisfy your ego -
> 
> http://webstats.ordersofbattle.darkscape.net/site/cimh/iaf/IAF_1965war_kills.pdf
> 
> This is a verified source, with names and acutal incidents of the losses to the PAF, unlike the dream sequence told by the PAF. If you actually study both wars brother, the IAF had full air control over east pakistan within 2 days of the war and had negated any advantage of the PAF in the west also, again trying to explain all this to you is useless but be careful when you make such claims.



Read before You comment.... the source is your very own ...
careful ? 

"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something."


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## Skywalker

Novice09 said:


> thanks for this information...
> 
> So who won these wars (1965 and 1971)???



1965 - us
1971 - u

Happy


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## Tomahawk

It is so easy to convert every thread into Pakistan vs. India. Topic of discussion is Stealth Fighter discussion with respect to Pakistan and not 1965 and 1971 wars.


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## Chanakyaa

This Thread is about a Machine which does not exist even on the paper !!
PAF will have to wait +10 ( Min. ) Yrs. till they get a Gen 5 Fighter provided China Sells it.

Open any Thread Mars vs Staurn and We can even correlate that to India Vs Pak how ironical.
Mods plz Close this thread which is discussing everything but JF-17x ( Which it self Does NOT and WILL Never Exist ).

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## desiman

Barrett said:


> Read before You comment.... the source is your very own ...
> careful ?
> 
> "Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something."



That means you dint even care to read it once, its written by an independent source and everything is referenced to official military records. Its easy to give such quotes but difficult to follow them, im sure you know a lot about that


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## SBD-3

Haanzo said:


> if pakistan is really determined they can make it but HOW GOOD CAN THEY MAKE IT THATS THE POINT .... india has been designing and building aircraft from some time but it still not able to make a respectable fighter aircraft into production ...at least untill now ...hope it changes soon



India did make some decent fighters like Marut (which died away due to engine problems) and now LCA seems a fine fighter but the problem that emerges is that the adaptability of fighters to new techniques........... I seriously expected a better fighter from Manufacturing experience that HAL has.


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## imiakhtar

santa cruz slugg said:


> it can super cruise [/B] QUOTE]
> 
> Supercruise is no biggy (it's been around since the 50s) and it's significance is overplayed. How is having the ability to super cruise an advantage? Regardless of whether you use afterburner or high N1, you still need huge amounts of energy at the transonic region to break the barrier and even then, at most, you have 10min of fuel remaining.


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## Zhukov

Stealth Version JF17 is Officially Designated YFC-1E. Its a 4.5th Gen Stealth Aircraft and Would have a Different Design for Reduced Radar Cross Section. It would Also Have a new Chinese Engine in Place of Russian. That Pic that is Being rumored as JF17 II is a Fake. Chinese Never Let any Info Out About YFC-1E Project. China Will Replace all Its J7 and A5 Aircrafts with YFC-1E. Pak Would Build 150 4th gen JF17s and 100 YFC-1E as for Current News. Future Plans and News are not Available due to Confidentiality. Thats all About JF17 Stealth

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## Zhukov

mundaus said:


> JF-17X- A Pakistani Stealth Fighter
> 
> In what is seen as a counter to Indias effort to jointly develop the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) with Russias Sukhoi Aircraft Corp, Pakistans Kamra-based Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) and Chinas Chengdu Aerospace Corp (CAC) last October inked a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) to jointly develop an advanced, stealthy, single-seat and single-engined derivative of the JF-17 Thunder fourth-generation light multi-role combat aircraft (MRCA) that is already being co-developed by PAC and CAC. Consequently, the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is expected to induct only 100 JF-17s into service between this year and 2014, and subsequently switch over to the acquisition of another 150 JF-17-derived fifth-generation stealthy MRCAs between 2015 and 2025. Present plans call for the latter MRCA to be powered by SNECMA Moteurs M88-3 twin-shaft bypass turbofan, incorporate a digital glass cockpit and open-architecture avionics suite, and use SELEX Sensors and Airborne Systems Vixen 500E X-band multi-mode active phased-array radar, or AESA, an integrated electronic warfare/defensive aids suite being developed by Chinas CETC, along with a helmet-mounted sighting-cum-cueing system for which systems from THALES, BAE Systems and Denel Aerospace are being evaluated. The M88 turbofan for this aircraft will have variable camber inlet guide vanes, while its high-pressure compressor will have a sixth stage, and its exhaust nozzle will be of the ejector type. The turbofan will deliver 50kN (11,250lb) of dry thrust and 75kN (17,000lb) with afterburning. The primary offensive armament to be carried by this aircraft will be two underwing-mounted Hatf-8 (also called Raad or thunder in Arabic) air-launched cruise missile, which has a range of 350km. For air combat engagements, the stealthy MRCA will be armed with three types of air-to-air missiles: 60km-range PL-12 beyond visual range missile; 15km-range PL-13 within visual range missile; and PL-14 ramjet-powered 100km-range missile. The latter two have been developed by China in cooperation with South Africas Denel Aerospace.
> 
> 
> Defence Aviation


Stealth Version JF17 is Officially Designated YFC-1E. Its a 4.5th Gen Stealth Aircraft and Would have a Different Design for Reduced Radar Cross Section. It would Also Have a new Chinese Engine in Place of Russian. That Pic that is Being rumored as JF17 II is a Fake. Chinese Never Let any Info Out About YFC-1E Project. China Will Replace all Its J7 and A5 Aircrafts with YFC-1E. Pak Would Build 150 4th gen JF17s and 100 YFC-1E as for Current News. Future Plans and News are not Available due to Confidentiality. Thats all About JF17 Stealth


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## TaimiKhan

ahmadnawaz22 said:


> Stealth Version JF17 is Officially Designated YFC-1E. Its a 4.5th Gen Stealth Aircraft and Would have a Different Design for Reduced Radar Cross Section. It would Also Have a new Chinese Engine in Place of Russian. That Pic that is Being rumored as JF17 II is a Fake. Chinese Never Let any Info Out About YFC-1E Project. China Will Replace all Its J7 and A5 Aircrafts with YFC-1E. Pak Would Build 150 4th gen JF17s and 100 YFC-1E as for Current News. Future Plans and News are not Available due to Confidentiality. Thats all About JF17 Stealth



And Sir, can we know the source of your this information ???


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## Stealth

yaar Discussion about me *Stealth* fighter why u guyz change into India Pakistan Cricket match :S


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## Super Falcon

hahahahah JF 17X is still havent got on paper why u discusss which is tilll now not a reality

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## SQ8

ahmadnawaz22 said:


> Stealth Version JF17 is Officially Designated YFC-1E. Its a 4.5th Gen Stealth Aircraft and Would have a Different Design for Reduced Radar Cross Section. It would Also Have a new Chinese Engine in Place of Russian. That Pic that is Being rumored as JF17 II is a Fake. Chinese Never Let any Info Out About YFC-1E Project. China Will Replace all Its J7 and A5 Aircrafts with YFC-1E. Pak Would Build 150 4th gen JF17s and 100 YFC-1E as for Current News. Future Plans and News are not Available due to Confidentiality. Thats all About JF17 Stealth



...so what else did the secret source let you know while you had him drunk divulging secret info to you??


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## haawk

some times i feel that its easy to make a stealth aircraft....all you have todo is get a normal fighter then put a -X to its name...and you might have a 6th gen fighter

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## desiman

haawk said:


> some times i feel that its easy to make a stealth aircraft....all you have todo is get a normal fighter then put a -X to its name...and you might have a 6th gen fighter



lol so true, jf-17x, F-16x etc etc


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## graphican

haawk said:


> some times i feel that its easy to make a stealth aircraft....all you have todo is get a normal fighter then put a -X to its name...and you might have a 6th gen fighter



 You are funny.

What if you put 2 xx at the end of an aircraft's name..??? and what if you add 3 of those  I'm sure such planes must be operate able by 18+ people.

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## Creder

heres the only thing i could find on this YFC-1E 



and we need some chineese guys up in here to translate this page :S

&#190;&#170;&#206;&#197;&#163;&#161;&#189;&#226;&#183;&#197;&#190;&#252;&#189;&#171;&#215;&#176;&#177;&#184;&#210;&#254;&#201;&#237;&#176;&#230;YFC-1E&#161;&#176;&#232;&#201;&#193;&#250;&#161;&#177;&#213;&#189;&#187;&#250;&#163;&#161;-&#190;&#252;&#202;&#194;-CHN&#199;&#191;&#185;&#250;&#205;&#248;

its probably a dud but eh atleast its somehow related to this thread

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## TaimiKhan

Creder said:


> heres the only thing i could find on this YFC-1E
> 
> 
> 
> and we need some chineese guys up in here to translate this page :S
> 
> ¾ªÎÅ£¡½â·Å¾ü½«×°±¸ÒþÉí°æYFC-1E¡°èÉÁú¡±Õ½»ú£¡-¾üÊÂ-CHNÇ¿¹úÍø
> 
> its probably a dud but eh atleast its somehow related to this thread



With a WS-10 or WS-10A version of Chinese Engine, it wouldn't be hard to see such designed aircraft or a larger version of the JF-17 shape. And the design isn't out of ordinary, normal conventional design just like the ones we see of F-22 or F-35. Its not 100% look alike, but seems to have got impressed by the F-22 & F-35 designs.


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## SBD-3

haawk said:


> some times i feel that its easy to make a stealth aircraft....all you have todo is get a normal fighter then put a -X to its name...and you might have a 6th gen fighter



well if you are familiar with aviation X planes refer to designs which are either under development or are under development and are thus undesignated, or aircrafts developed to test a specific technologies. Its not with China only...Germany UK US and Russia.....All have been developing X planes since WWII


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## TaimiKhan

kashith said:


> Isnt it lovely to see China getting "impressed".Well in India we call it copying.



Learn what is the difference between impressed and copying in this discussions context and then come back and post. 

Typical Indian mindset.


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## pakpower

Creder said:


> heres the only thing i could find on this YFC-1E
> 
> 
> 
> and we need some chineese guys up in here to translate this page :S
> 
> ¾ªÎÅ£¡½â·Å¾ü½«×°±¸ÒþÉí°æYFC-1E¡°èÉÁú¡±Õ½»ú£¡-¾üÊÂ-CHNÇ¿¹úÍø
> 
> its probably a dud but eh atleast its somehow related to this thread


Hi to all here is the english translation of this page which you mention

Shocked! People's Liberation Army will be equipped with stealth version of YFC-1E "Fierce Dragon" fighter! 
2009-05-29 12:39:26 Source: CDC National Prosperity Forum Text Size: Big Medium Small 
Xiaolong fighter in the original, based on the success of the new self-developed stealth-based multi-YFC-1E single-and double vertical tail "Fierce Dragon" fighter. 


A few days ago, according to China Aviation Industry Corporation I, the Chengdu Aircraft Research Institute authoritative source: Chengdu Aircraft Industrial Group, the global market according to sales prospects Xiaolong own Xiaolong fighters and our military should be differentiated principle. 

Xiaolong fighter in the original, based on the success of the new self-developed stealth-based multi-YFC-1E single-and double vertical tail "Fierce Dragon" fighter. 

According to international and domestic market demand for independent research and development of advanced stealth light utility YFC-1E "Fierce Dragon" fighter. Able to adapt to the 21st century operational environment characteristics, fully able to meet the fourth generation of the new People's Liberation Army aviation weapons and equipment with the level of development needs.

Stealth-type YFC-1E Xiaolong fighter 3 views 

YFC-1E Xiaolong fighter key data: 

A wingspan of 9.18 meters 

Captain of 15.16 meters 

Machine 4.65 meters high 

Main Track 2.71 meters 

Track 5.12 meters before the main 

Normal takeoff weight of 10,000 kilograms 

Maximum take-off weight of 13.8 thousand kilograms 

Plug-in capacity of 3800 kilograms 

2500 liters of fuel machine 

Maximum Maximum Mach M1.72 

Maximum utility ceiling 17.5 thousand meters 

Take-off roll distance of 435 meters 

Landing roll distance of 680 meters 

Range of 2500 km 

Limited overload 8G 

China Aviation Industry Corporation I own research and development, with full independent intellectual property rights YFC-1E "Fierce Dragon" stateful stealth aircraft 05 at its 01.03.04 based on the prototype aircraft carried out air, structure and system optimization of the whole The new design, using advanced "clam" type inlet and dual vertical fin and other innovative technologies, and application of a number of integrated manufacturing of new technologies, with the most advanced country with a high degree of integration of the avionics and weapons systems, configure the world's leading The cockpit has a good human-machine interface, an integrated display device, stealth-type "Fierce Dragon" fighter's overall performance and comprehensive combat capability has increased significantly. 

Relative to this prior to the successful first flight of the "Fierce Dragon" 01 .03 frame .04 is a platform for the state of the aircraft "upgrade Stealth Edition", focusing on the development of the body of the aircraft, mainly used to support the flight test to ensure flight safety in terms of , 05 "Fierce Dragon" fighter that provides practical delivery of the entire state, can call it "super-stealth full version." 
Editor: across the Pacific 
(CHN power network - newer, more comprehensive comments on the article, click on collection.) 
0 user comments have been I would like to comment on


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## Creder

mayn did u use google translate or something ?  

i can understand anything, or maybe its too late i should goto sleep


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## pakpower

Creder said:


> mayn did u use google translate or something ?
> 
> i can understand anything, or maybe its too late i should goto sleep


I use google translation.


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## SBD-3

pakpower said:


> I use google translation.



I bet you've used Chinathreat blog it always creats such, hard to understand, masterpieces


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## mjnaushad

pakpower said:


> I use google translation.


Google translator sucks. Nice try anyway. Maybe a chinese member can translate it for us. but who will do all that typing. Still i can read the specifications.


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## haawk

graphican said:


> You are funny.
> 
> What if you put 2 xx at the end of an aircraft's name..??? and what if you add 3 of those  I'm sure such planes must be operate able by 18+ people.



 the 3d generation stealth with 3 of x .- it will strictly have 18+people


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## SinoIndusFriendship

Creder said:


> heres the only thing i could find on this YFC-1E
> 
> 
> 
> and we need some chineese guys up in here to translate this page :S
> 
> ¾ªÎÅ£¡½â·Å¾ü½«×°±¸ÒþÉí°æYFC-1E¡°èÉÁú¡±Õ½»ú£¡-¾üÊÂ-CHNÇ¿¹úÍø
> 
> its probably a dud but eh atleast its somehow related to this thread



It looks really plausible. At first I didn't really think a stealth version of JF-17 was likely, but now it seems we will be seeing one in a few years time!

Stealth JF-17 would be practical (short take off distance suitable to Pakistan's roads) and economical.

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## desiman

taimikhan said:


> With a WS-10 or WS-10A version of Chinese Engine, it wouldn't be hard to see such designed aircraft or a larger version of the JF-17 shape. And the design isn't out of ordinary, normal conventional design just like the ones we see of F-22 or F-35. Its not 100% look alike, but seems to have got impressed by the F-22 & F-35 designs.



A 5th generation aircraft is not only about design, there are literally thousands of things that have to be taken into account. Only USA has managed to built one till now, and in the coming years the only Russia and India are one of the few countries with actual 5th generation projects like the PAKFA or the MCA. China's J-XX program is still could but im sure the Chinese can surely have one within the next 10 years. The JF-17 is not even a full 4th generation aircraft, making it a 5th generation is just a joke. Pakistan will not be having a 5th generation aircraft atleast for the next 15 years or so. Please stop demeaning the JF-17 by over glorifying it.


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## BATMAN

> Please stop demeaning the JF-17 by over glorifying it.


Please....stop getting bothered! 
JF-17 is their to develop and before PAKFA being inducted in any air force...JF-17 will certainly be improved in many areas. incl. design, wepons, engine, avionics....etc... so what shall we call it when all is improved to next generation?


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## TechLahore

santa cruz slugg said:


> Hopefully no one gets offended but it is not possible to make the Jf-17 a Fifth Generation fighter. This would require a 100&#37; re-design of the aircraft. The Two major things that set the Raptor apart from every other aircraft is that fact that it can super cruise and *Internal weapons bay* Unless the JF-17 were to have both of these you cannot consider it a fifth generation no matter how good the avionics and weapons are.
> The only fifth generation being developed by china is the JXX and no one knows anything about it.



Hmm. Hasn't the Silent Eagle been modified in exactly the same way from an airframe that didn't support internal weapons storage?

It is important to point out that you don't expect to require stealth capabilities in all your aircraft throughout the course of battle. Stealth is certainly important for SEAD or deep penetration missions early on in the war when enemy SA and radar threats are operating at maximum. But once SAM threats have been neutralized and airspace is more 'open', you can afford to load up those underwing pylons. That is the plan with the F-35 also.

If the hypothesized JF-17 derivative was developed such that internal weapons storage could be provided for a couple of SD-10s and anti radiation missiles, it would still be a huge improvement and a legitimate stealth capability for a SEAD role. CFTs - which are not a particularly difficult capability to add - can replace drop tanks, providing a reduced signature.

Chinese engines are making rapid progress. You only have to read the recent news (J-11B tests) about the WS-10A to understand this. Thrust augmentation is really all that is required to give the JF-17 super cruise. In 5 years it is possible that the required level of thrust might be achieved via a Chinese engine.

I am not saying that all these things will definitely be done. I am not privy to such information. Just that I wouldn't dismiss addition of new capabilities - including some degree of stealth - to the JF-17.


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## desiman

BATMAN said:


> Please....stop getting bothered!
> JF-17 is their to develop and before PAKFA being inducted in any air force...JF-17 will certainly be improved in many areas. incl. design, wepons, engine, avionics....etc... so what shall we call it when all is improved to next generation?



Please stop getting irritated then, JF-17 will not develop into the next generation lol stop dreaming


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## gambit

TechLahore said:


> Hmm. Hasn't the Silent Eagle been modified in exactly the same way from an airframe that didn't support internal weapons storage?


That is a misconception. What is mistaken as an 'internal weapons' bay is actually a modified conformal fuel tank (CFT) to carry weapons instead of fuel. The basic airframe remain untouched. Not every aircraft can be modified this way.

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## amarnath

JF-17 thunder cannot be made into a 5th gen plane, And if you are talking about J-XX its design suits the stealth feature, and With jf-17 U need super cruice which indeed is the strength of a 5th gen aircraft, but with the single engine I dont think Jf-17 would get enough thrust..... And no matter how many alteration u do in jf-17 it would still not exceed in decreasing the radar signature by 2-3 percent and that too at very low altitudes....

Its not easy to convert a 4th gen plane to 5th gen....... U can sure make it stealthy but never 5th gen..... Even Sukhoi 30 mki is getting stelthy but it will not become 5th gen, will it? naaah... so to counter FGFA u need to buy J-xx from china.... Both J-xx and FGFA are under testing...


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## desiman

gambit said:


> That is a misconception. What is mistaken as an 'internal weapons' bay is actually a modified conformal fuel tank (CFT) to carry weapons instead of fuel. The basic airframe remain untouched. Not every aircraft can be modified this way.



Finally a post that makes sense lol I dont know why some people here cnat accept this fact and stop trolling and day dreaming.


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## chinapakistan

I know nothing about jet technology, so i just wish pakistan will make JF-17 more powerful with their innovation.



desidog said:


> Finally a post that makes sense lol I dont know why some people here cnat accept this fact and stop trolling and day dreaming.



I dont know either why some people in the world cnat accept fact and stop trolling and day dreaming.
Some example: 
1 some country's PM said let world foget shanghai, just remenber mobai in 5 years in 2004, now it is 2010......
2 some country's millitory cheif said they will finish china and pakistan in 96 hour.......

*Talking about day dreaming, some country is the biggest day dreamer in the world....*

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## MAB

Well what I think about this issue is that there will not be a stealth JF-17. What might happen to the aircraft is that they can do some minor modifications to the air frame to reduce the RCS.

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## desiman

chinapakistan said:


> I know nothing about jet technology, so i just wish pakistan will make JF-17 more powerful with their innovation.
> 
> 
> 
> I dont know either why some people in the world cnat accept fact and stop trolling and day dreaming.
> Some example:
> 1 some country's PM said let world foget shanghai, just remenber mobai in 5 years in 2004, now it is 2010......
> 2 some country's millitory cheif said they will finish china and pakistan in 96 hour.......
> 
> *Talking about day dreaming, some country is the biggest day dreamer in the world....*




No sense at all, just normal trolling, not worth replying really


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## desiman

MAB said:


> Well what I think about this issue is that there will not be a stealth JF-17. What might happen to the aircraft is that they can do some minor modifications to the air frame to reduce the RCS.



I wont say the air frame but the materials used in the airframe itself.


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## Storm Force

Russia has 8000 enginners working on PAK FA since the 1990s 

They have already spent $10 billion on developing plasma stealth a new AESA radars and new 3D TVC engine AL41. 

Its believed the structural design is similar to F22 and there are a great deal of angles and curves to reflect radar signals. 

China has come along way in aero engineering but to think it could develope a fifth gen fighter before 2025 IS ABSURD.

China itself is stil reliant on Russian tech esp in engines and top line flanker fighters. 

Even the J10 is a israeli lavi design and the first real chinease effort is the Thunder. FC1 fighter which is late 3rd generation design. 

The chinease have themselves stated J10 is wat they will develope and improve until at least 2020. 

JXX or other CHINEASE PLANE will not be ready until 2025 and for export way beyond 2030. 

EVEN PAK FA will not enter service in russia tilol 2017-2018 AND IAF til 2020 AND THIS PROTOPTYPE is already doing ground taxi trials


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## Desert Fox

chinapakistan said:


> I know nothing about jet technology, so i just wish pakistan will make JF-17 more powerful with their innovation.
> 
> 
> 
> I dont know either why some people in the world cnat accept fact and stop trolling and day dreaming.
> Some example:
> 1 some country's PM said let world foget shanghai, just remenber mobai in 5 years in 2004, now it is 2010......
> 2 some country's millitory cheif said they will finish china and pakistan in 96 hour.......
> 
> *Talking about day dreaming, some country is the biggest day dreamer in the world....*



lol, and we all know who that country is, and what their capable of doing!


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## BATMAN

Storm Force said:


> Russia has 8000 enginners working on PAK FA since the 1990s
> 
> *They have already spent $10 billion on developing plasma stealth a new AESA radars and new 3D TVC engine AL41. *
> Its believed the structural design is similar to F22 and there are a great deal of angles and curves to reflect radar signals.
> 
> China has come along way in aero engineering but to think it could develope a fifth gen fighter before 2025 IS ABSURD.
> 
> China itself is stil reliant on Russian tech esp in engines and top line flanker fighters.
> 
> *Even the J10 is a israeli lavi design and the first real chinease effort is the Thunder. FC1 fighter which is late 3rd generation design. *
> 
> The chinease have themselves stated J10 is wat they will develope and improve until at least 2020.
> 
> JXX or other CHINEASE PLANE will not be ready until 2025 and for export way beyond 2030.
> 
> EVEN PAK FA will not enter service in russia tilol 2017-2018 AND IAF til 2020 AND THIS PROTOPTYPE is already doing ground taxi trials





desidog said:


> No sense at all, just normal trolling, not worth replying really


 
question....what is indians benifit if Russia develops PAKFA?
Are you sure they are going to sell it to you? what about wepon package?


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## amarnath

BATMAN said:


> question....what is indians benifit if Russia develops PAKFA?
> Are you sure they are going to sell it to you? what about wepon package?



For your kind information, FGFA and PAKFA T-50 are same.... FGFA is Twin seat Indian version of the PAK fa.... Just like Sukhoi-30 MKI.... And This project is headed by HAL and Sukhoi jointly.... 

And more over A question for u, many pakistanis in here believe that China will sell JXX to pakistan, on what grounds?

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## asim.mian10

YEAH ITS HEART BREAKING NEWS FOR INDIAN


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## kashith

BATMAN said:


> question....what is indians benifit if Russia develops PAKFA?
> Are you sure they are going to sell it to you? what about wepon package?



we have invested 25% of the required budget.We are partners in the project so there is no question of denying us the FGFA.Well the same cant be said about the J-XX

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## White Dove

BATMAN said:


> question....what is indians benifit if Russia develops PAKFA?
> Are you sure they are going to sell it to you? what about wepon package?



U being a senior member its poor that u dont know 250 fgfa aka pakfa are gonna be build for India


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## Adios Amigo

Storm Force said:


> Russia has 8000 enginners working on PAK FA since the 1990s
> 
> They have already spent $10 billion on developing plasma stealth a new AESA radars and new 3D TVC engine AL41.
> 
> Its believed the structural design is similar to F22 and there are a great deal of angles and curves to reflect radar signals.
> 
> China has come along way in aero engineering but to think it could develope a fifth gen fighter before 2025 IS ABSURD.
> 
> China itself is stil reliant on Russian tech esp in engines and top line flanker fighters.
> 
> Even the J10 is a israeli lavi design and the first real chinease effort is the Thunder. FC1 fighter which is late 3rd generation design.
> 
> The chinease have themselves stated J10 is wat they will develope and improve until at least 2020.
> 
> JXX or other CHINEASE PLANE will not be ready until 2025 and for export way beyond 2030.
> 
> EVEN PAK FA will not enter service in russia tilol 2017-2018 AND IAF til 2020 AND THIS PROTOPTYPE is already doing ground taxi trials



A excellent example of Indian thinking. You sumed it up very nicely, what ever an indian member want to say or thinks is there in your one lil para keep the good work up




adios


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## Adios Amigo

desidog said:


> No sense at all,


Wouldnt make sense to you. Impossible for you to grasp it.



desidog said:


> just normal trolling,



Ya thats routine for some guys here. You better check your posts too, i guess his post wouldnt match up to yours when it comes to trolling, you beat him by a far greater margin. and please dont use worlds like trolling or flame etc, doesnt suite your personality.



desidog said:


> not worth replying really



Ya be chearfull, all the time, it will make you feal good, specially when you are beaten in an argument and cannot reply. Using words like "not worth replying" will console you.




adios.

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## Storm Force

In reply to Batman post 



> question....what is indians benifit if Russia develops PAKFA?
> Are you sure they are going to sell it to you? what about wepon package?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Stop pretending Batman re the FGFA OR PAK FA

This forum and indeed every other aviation/military forum is talking about the above indo russian fifth generation fighter about to make its maiden flight. 

India owes 25&#37; of this project Indian version is called FGFA and is a 2 seater where as russian version single seater is called PAK FA. 

iNDIAN INVESTMENT OF $5 BILLION ALONE on deveopments will give india the following.. 

IAF to induct the FGFA by 2020 max 
25% of all parts of all fighters including russian and export to be sourced in india
complete freedom to induct any western parts its wants alas su30mki israeli/french etc.
TOT from 4 generation LCA composite tech to fifth generation plasma TOT inside 10 years. 
License maufacture complete TOT of new 3dtvc engine ibris aesa radar and all russian weapons. 

In other words india can add change wat ever tech it wants to its version of this formidable fighter. 

PAK FA OR FGFA is the long term 5th generation successor/replacement to the awesome flanker series. 

WE ALL KNOW HOW GOOD THE FLANKERS HAVE BEEN FOR THE LAST 10-15 YEARS. 

*It will be astonishing combat plane and india will own 25% of it. *


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## Super Falcon

JF 17X is imagination nothing more than this friends it is not realistic.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

A.V. said:


> friends people here talk about building a 5th gen airplane just as if its a matter of few days.
> howmany countries in the world can build a 5th gen aircraft ?just look at the us with their money and knowledge how much time it took to get the raptor to the sky,even the russian superior design its still working hard to get a 5th gen plane flying.
> 
> people talk about stealthy features what kind of stealth does the new chinese aircraft gong to get ,the pakfa,lmfi both will have plasma stealth,the raptor and jsf have radar absorbing technology what kind of staelth feature does china posses?
> 
> i the next 10 years there are going to be very few 5th gen planes.both the us and russia started work in the early 90 s and we will see only these aircrafts in the next 10-15 years, if china starts working from today i will still take 20 years mininum to get the plane flying.
> 
> thanx



Well if you are developing from scratch it takes 11 years to perfect a technology , but as China developed J10 not recently but for last 10 years or so its quite possible they have a secret Stealth program from 90's 

Stealth is not rocket science , its just perfecting , dynamics of plane to reflect radar reflection.

Luckily US has solved the design issue so if the shape is kept consistent to the US design (stolen of course from germans) , China should be fine...

US showed off its stealth in 1989 that is like 20 years ago ... so if China started its stealth program in 1995, they should be on course to fly a prototype in next 2-3 years


Also the most recent algorithm that predicts the , shape vs radar ray emitting comes from Russian scientist - so its not like Russians can't do it they invented the theories that someone stole - obviously


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## pak-yes

These types of threads make me wonder that sometimes Pakistanis also behave as INDIANS ranting about things that are either impossible or decades ahead.
Seriously Stealth technology is no child's Play it requires billions of $$$ and decades of research.And JF-17 as a Stealth.Is it a joke. 
We should try to secure engines and Western Avionics for JF-17 rather than living in Fantasies.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Germans had prototypes for stealth in WW2 , so basic ideas are there , also the Russian scientist algoritm that was responsible for the stealth behavior also is open domain otherwise how can Americas gain access to his calculations which he used to determin the shape a plane has to have in order deflect radar rays...

Its all Math calculatios to and complex mathmaticians 

Basic principle is to desig something smooth as possible, and narrow as possible with out things sticking out - and polish the surface with radar absorbant material. And hide all missiles with in the frame.

Cool the out going exhuast from plane engine - (again this is a engineering marvel) but every thing else is doable imagine a stealth boat ... same principle , just have to get a shape that flies as well....


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## desiman

chinapakistan said:


> I know nothing about jet technology, so i just wish pakistan will make JF-17 more powerful with their innovation.
> 
> 
> 
> I dont know either why some people in the world cnat accept fact and stop trolling and day dreaming.
> Some example:
> 1 some country's PM said let world foget shanghai, just remenber mobai in 5 years in 2004, now it is 2010......
> 2 some country's millitory cheif said they will finish china and pakistan in 96 hour.......
> 
> *Talking about day dreaming, some country is the biggest day dreamer in the world....*



Lol hmmm lets see who thanked you for your post lol hmm all Pakistani's, i wonder why lol Maybe because you tell them what they want to hear lol Grow up


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## gambit

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Germans had prototypes for stealth in WW2 , so basic ideas are there , also the Russian scientist algoritm that was responsible for the stealth behavior also is open domain otherwise how can Americas gain access to his calculations which he used to determin the shape a plane has to have in order deflect radar rays...
> 
> Its all Math calculatios to and complex mathmaticians
> 
> Basic principle is to desig something smooth as possible, and narrow as possible with out things sticking out - and polish the surface with radar absorbant material. And hide all missiles with in the frame.
> 
> Cool the out going exhuast from plane engine - (again this is a engineering marvel) but every thing else is doable imagine a stealth boat ... same principle , just have to get a shape that flies as well....


Wow...!!! I had no idea designing a 'stealth' aircraft is so easy. Damn...We Americans must have been doing something so wrong all this time to take so long and used so much money.

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## mean_bird

gambit said:


> Wow...!!! I had no idea designing a 'stealth' aircraft is so easy. Damn...We Americans must have been doing something so wrong all this time to take so long and used so much money.



I can't say about time but you did use a ridiculous amount of money. 

As far as the JF-17 is concerned, its even beyond funny to say its going to be a stealth fighter, if not for anything else then just the fact that if it ever is a stealth fighter, it will be another plane altogether. You just cant just fix a couple of things to make a fighter stealthy. 

Room for improvement exists in
- use composites for light weight, 
- go for higher thrust RD-93,
- increase number of hardpoints,
- develop a nice ECM suite,
- try to reduce RCS further if possible,
- IRST,
- next gen missiles,
- use an AESA radar,

etc., which I believe will be done over time as newer and better materials become available. Most of these facts are infact under consideration/work. For example, we have seen reports of higher thrust RD-93, ACM had said that they are trying to increase hardpoints, ECM suite is under development, I am sure with use of composites in Falco they will have the technology and experience to make it into the fighter jet, and we might see a different package for next batch of JF-17s. 

So far so good. The plane is ready for induction with a descent package and further enhancements are already being looked into. Nice job PAF and PAC.

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## gambit

mean_bird said:


> I can't say about time but you did use a ridiculous amount of money.


Low observability cost money...So how low do *YOU* want to go? Keep in mind that what *YOU* want does not mean it is what your potential adversary want.


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## mean_bird

gambit said:


> Low observability cost money...So *how low do YOU want to go*? Keep in mind that what *YOU* want does not mean it is what your potential adversary want.



I would rather be _high _


Lets just say some fat a** bosses got even fatter a**e$ as a result of this plane while being low observable.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Any plane can be converted to stealth 

Just need to hire the right ppl


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## MAB

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Any plane can be converted to stealth
> 
> Just need to hire the right ppl



Well if you do convert one fighter into a stealth fighter it wont even be considered the same fighter anymore. Its not so easy to create a stealth fighter you need the money, resources and the expertise on the subject. So when t comes down to JF-17 being a stealth fighter in the future I don't think its going to happen and if anyone thinks that it will somehow evolve into a stealth fighter you have the right to believe it because its your own opinion.


----------



## faithfulguy

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Any plane can be converted to stealth
> 
> Just need to hire the right ppl



Yes

F-22 was converted from F-15.


----------



## faithfulguy

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Any plane can be converted to stealth
> 
> Just need to hire the right ppl



Stealth could have a lot of meaning. But as long as the enemy cannot detect the airplane beyond visual range and direct its defence against it, the airplane is stealth. For example, because the Japanese didn't have radars in battle of Midway, Douglas SBD Dauntless serve as a role of a stealth plane vs the imperial carrier fleet. Conversely, if all the countries in the world can come up with a simple radar that can somehow sees F-22, F-22 is no long a "stealth" airplane. 

I think what you mean is converted to be more "stealthy" than before. But this kind of effort is useless unless the "stealthy" conversion make the plane becomes "invisible" to enemy radar.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

faithfulguy said:


> Stealth could have a lot of meaning. But as long as the enemy cannot detect the airplane beyond visual range and direct its defence against it, the airplane is stealth. For example, because the Japanese didn't have radars in battle of Midway, Douglas SBD Dauntless serve as a role of a stealth plane vs the imperial carrier fleet. Conversely, if all the countries in the world can come up with a simple radar that can somehow sees F-22, F-22 is no long a "stealth" airplane.
> 
> I think what you mean is converted to be more "stealthy" than before. But this kind of effort is useless unless the "stealthy" conversion make the plane becomes "invisible" to enemy radar.



The planes still apear on radar, just that the signiture is so minor that , radar analyst might consider it a bird or other non aircraft flying object , but once its launches a weapons it gives off a pretty big signiture ... stealth is only maintained untill the surface , integrity holds, curve, and ability of surface to deflect light away from incoming direction. 

The ability to cool down the out going airflow , is interesting engineering achivemet  but if Americans can run the heat flows thru the vents , internally in craft , and make it cold enough whe it comes out to avoid heat seeking missiles I am sure other nations can research in that area.

In theroy , if your plane has a diamon shape (surface properties) light will get reflected and radars will be deflected. As long as the xrays do not bounce on surface and come back 

I am sure of 10-20 Pakistani engieers worked with a small scale prototype , they can come up with a shape that can deflect , any light / xray from a prototype surface.

After that it will challenge for Aeronutical engineers to test the prototype in wind tunnels for flyability 

Stealth is not new , US had it since what 70's ? so now its pretty old techology almost absolete , probbly the russians already have it figured out - they just don't like to boast about their achivements


JF17 , can it be converted ? Yes just modify the surface of plance and hide the cannopy 100&#37; so pilot runs the plane with no visuals or just make it UAV JF17 stealth.

Hide the weapons inside the frame of body ... 

Stealth is determined by how well you deflect rays of radar , not size you can have plane size of titanic , but as log as it reflect radar beams - it will have signiture of a small bird or kite or ballon

No plane is 100% invisible -

Success rate of F22 is high only becasue , it is going up against , crows and eagles in air, their is no airforce, when it will be up against Russian fighters , 5-6 Russian planes can easily out manuver the F22 into submission as soon as they establish visuals 

The momet the F22 opens fire , the ground Missiles will lock in under 1-2 second and launch a missile on to the target.

The radar absorbant chemicals that get painted on the plane are well just to further reduce its signiture - which routinely get painted on planes I think I read every time that plane flies every small section of plane is inspected to see if any paint got scrapped or came off during flight...

The samples may have already been bought off by Russians and Chinese - there were few stealth planes that went down in europe ...


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## gambit

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> The planes still apear on radar, just that the signiture is so minor that , radar analyst might consider it a bird or other non aircraft flying object , but once its launches a weapons it gives off a pretty big signiture ... stealth is only maintained untill the surface , integrity holds, curve, and ability of surface to deflect light away from incoming direction.
> 
> The ability to cool down the out going airflow , is interesting engineering achivemet  but if Americans can run the heat flows thru the vents , internally in craft , and make it cold enough whe it comes out to avoid heat seeking missiles I am sure other nations can research in that area.
> 
> In theroy , if your plane has a diamon shape (surface properties) light will get reflected and radars will be deflected. As long as the xrays do not bounce on surface and come back
> 
> I am sure of 10-20 Pakistani engieers worked with a small scale prototype , they can come up with a shape that can deflect , any light / xray from a prototype surface.
> 
> After that it will challenge for Aeronutical engineers to test the prototype in wind tunnels for flyability
> 
> Stealth is not new , US had it since what 70's ? so now its pretty old techology almost absolete , probbly the russians already have it figured out - they just don't like to boast about their achivements
> 
> 
> JF17 , can it be converted ? Yes just modify the surface of plance and hide the cannopy 100% so pilot runs the plane with no visuals or just make it UAV JF17 stealth.
> 
> Hide the weapons inside the frame of body ...
> 
> Stealth is determined by how well you deflect rays of radar , not size you can have plane size of titanic , but as log as it reflect radar beams - it will have signiture of a small bird or kite or ballon
> 
> No plane is 100% invisible -
> 
> Success rate of F22 is high only becasue , it is going up against , crows and eagles in air, their is no airforce, when it will be up against Russian fighters , 5-6 Russian planes can easily out manuver the F22 into submission as soon as they establish visuals
> 
> The momet the F22 opens fire , the ground Missiles will lock in under 1-2 second and launch a missile on to the target.
> 
> The radar absorbant chemicals that get painted on the plane are well just to further reduce its signiture - which routinely get painted on planes I think I read every time that plane flies every small section of plane is inspected to see if any paint got scrapped or came off during flight...
> 
> The samples may have already been bought off by Russians and Chinese - there were few stealth planes that went down in europe ...


I hope someone will be kind enough to send you links to what I posted here on how radar behave on a body and how RCS reduction works. You are treading into territory you know nothing about.

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## desiman

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> The planes still apear on radar, just that the signiture is so minor that , radar analyst might consider it a bird or other non aircraft flying object , but once its launches a weapons it gives off a pretty big signiture ... stealth is only maintained untill the surface , integrity holds, curve, and ability of surface to deflect light away from incoming direction.
> 
> The ability to cool down the out going airflow , is interesting engineering achivemet  but if Americans can run the heat flows thru the vents , internally in craft , and make it cold enough whe it comes out to avoid heat seeking missiles I am sure other nations can research in that area.
> 
> In theroy , if your plane has a diamon shape (surface properties) light will get reflected and radars will be deflected. As long as the xrays do not bounce on surface and come back
> 
> I am sure of 10-20 Pakistani engieers worked with a small scale prototype , they can come up with a shape that can deflect , any light / xray from a prototype surface.
> 
> After that it will challenge for Aeronutical engineers to test the prototype in wind tunnels for flyability
> 
> Stealth is not new , US had it since what 70's ? so now its pretty old techology almost absolete , probbly the russians already have it figured out - they just don't like to boast about their achivements
> 
> 
> JF17 , can it be converted ? Yes just modify the surface of plance and hide the cannopy 100% so pilot runs the plane with no visuals or just make it UAV JF17 stealth.
> 
> Hide the weapons inside the frame of body ...
> 
> Stealth is determined by how well you deflect rays of radar , not size you can have plane size of titanic , but as log as it reflect radar beams - it will have signiture of a small bird or kite or ballon
> 
> No plane is 100% invisible -
> 
> Success rate of F22 is high only becasue , it is going up against , crows and eagles in air, their is no airforce, when it will be up against Russian fighters , 5-6 Russian planes can easily out manuver the F22 into submission as soon as they establish visuals
> 
> The momet the F22 opens fire , the ground Missiles will lock in under 1-2 second and launch a missile on to the target.
> 
> The radar absorbant chemicals that get painted on the plane are well just to further reduce its signiture - which routinely get painted on planes I think I read every time that plane flies every small section of plane is inspected to see if any paint got scrapped or came off during flight...
> 
> The samples may have already been bought off by Russians and Chinese - there were few stealth planes that went down in europe ...



Please your making a joke out of yourself, as gambit said, your talking about things you have no idea about.


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## amarnath

mundaus said:


> JF-17X- A Pakistani Stealth Fighter
> 
> In what is seen as a counter to India&#8217;s effort to jointly develop the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) with Russia&#8217;s Sukhoi Aircraft Corp, Pakistan&#8217;s Kamra-based Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) and China&#8217;s Chengdu Aerospace Corp (CAC) last October inked a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) to jointly develop an advanced, stealthy, single-seat and single-engined derivative of the JF-17 Thunder fourth-generation light multi-role combat aircraft (MRCA) that is already being co-developed by PAC and CAC. Consequently, the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is expected to induct only 100 JF-17s into service between this year and 2014, and subsequently switch over to the acquisition of another 150 JF-17-derived fifth-generation stealthy MRCAs between 2015 and 2025. Present plans call for the latter MRCA to be powered by SNECMA Moteurs&#8217; M88-3 twin-shaft bypass turbofan, incorporate a digital glass cockpit and open-architecture avionics suite, and use SELEX Sensors and Airborne Systems&#8217; Vixen 500E X-band multi-mode active phased-array radar, or AESA, an integrated electronic warfare/defensive aids suite being developed by China&#8217;s CETC, along with a helmet-mounted sighting-cum-cueing system for which systems from THALES, BAE Systems and Denel Aerospace are being evaluated. The M88 turbofan for this aircraft will have variable camber inlet guide vanes, while its high-pressure compressor will have a sixth stage, and its exhaust nozzle will be of the ejector type. The turbofan will deliver 50kN (11,250lb) of dry thrust and 75kN (17,000lb) with afterburning. The primary offensive armament to be carried by this aircraft will be two underwing-mounted Hatf-8 (also called &#8216;Raad&#8217; or &#8216;thunder&#8217; in Arabic) air-launched cruise missile, which has a range of 350km. For air combat engagements, the stealthy MRCA will be armed with three types of air-to-air missiles: 60km-range PL-12 beyond visual range missile; 15km-range PL-13 within visual range missile; and PL-14 ramjet-powered 100km-range missile. The latter two have been developed by China in cooperation with South Africa&#8217;s Denel Aerospace.
> 
> 
> Defence Aviation



This can not even match the sukhoi 30 mki stealth which HAL and sukhoi are upto, forget the MCA and FGFA with that....  ...


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## SBD-3

desidog said:


> Please your making a joke out of yourself, as gambit said, your talking about things you have no idea about.



I always expect such a post from you......suits your nick as well.....no other comments

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## SBD-3

amarnath said:


> This can not even match the sukhoi 30 mki stealth which HAL and sukhoi are upto, forget the MCA and FGFA with that....  ...



Yeah.....whatever

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## desiman

hasnain0099 said:


> I always expect such a post from you......suits your nick as well.....no other comments



Well thats nice to hear you expect something from me, but whats a joke originally always remains one and that post was a joke if you like it or not.


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## TaimiKhan

Desidog, buddy can you stop your rant against JF-17 ??? If you don't like it, fine, just say so, why do you get into petty debates all the time in nearly every thread which is discussing JF-17 ??? 

You are one of the only Indian members, who non stop posts in JF-17 threads. 

One line from you saying JF-17 is a crap is more then enough for us to know. 

We know JF-17 is a crap in Indian eyes, no need to tell us again and again. 

So plzz quit from these petty issues related to JF-17.

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## desiman

taimikhan said:


> Desidog, buddy can you stop your rant against JF-17 ??? If you don't like it, fine, just say so, why do you get into petty debates all the time in nearly every thread which is discussing JF-17 ???
> 
> You are one of the only Indian members, who non stop posts in JF-17 threads.
> 
> One line from you saying JF-17 is a crap is more then enough for us to know.
> 
> We know JF-17 is a crap in Indian eyes, no need to tell us again and again.
> 
> So plzz quit from these petty issues related to JF-17.



taimikhan if you have actually read my post rather than always look at them with a sore eye only then you will see that i have really appreciated its brilliance. I have always called it an achievement for Pakistan and a really good move forward, but I only take offence when it gets compared with the MKI or any other jet in the world or when kids start fantasizing weird scenarios about it. I have always said that comparing jets will only be controversial and will only lead to more trolling. I have been in this industry for quite long and do not need to be told what I should say or not.

and excuse me, this is a public forum and its my right to indulge in any thread that i want to until and unless I am not breaking any rules which I am sure im not.

Regards


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## TaimiKhan

I have read your posts, as well as indulged in discussion with you,giving me enough know how about what your know how is. 

Any sane person knows it is not comparable to MKI. 

So if you say that you have knowledge of this sector (which I highly doubt, but off course it doesn't matters), so with knowledge of this sector you won't be indulging in insane discussions where guys with limited knowledge who do such childish comparisons. 

If you have knowledge of this sector then don't indulge in such petty discussions, rather make one good statement highlighting the superiority of MKI, that is what knowledgeable person do. 

Rest is upto you.


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## desiman

taimikhan said:


> I have read your posts, as well as indulged in discussion with you,giving me enough know how about what your know how is.
> 
> Any sane person knows it is not comparable to MKI.
> 
> So if you say that you have knowledge of this sector (which I highly doubt, but off course it doesn't matters), so with knowledge of this sector you won't be indulging in insane discussions where guys with limited knowledge who do such childish comparisons.
> 
> If you have knowledge of this sector then don't indulge in such petty discussions, rather make one good statement highlighting the superiority of MKI, that is what knowledgeable person do.
> 
> Rest is upto you.



Lol yes any sane person knows that its not compariable to the MKI, but yet the JF-17 vs the MKI thread is huge with lots contribution from you too. 

I dont need confirmation about my credentials from you or anyone and i have never asked for it to. Just being a mod does not certify anyone also here. I have given valid points from both sides of the argument but even then people who want to argue will continue to do so. 
Knowledge is the eye of the beholder, maybe that is something that you should also learn before questioning someone else's comments. I don&#8217;t mean to sound offensive but I take great offense to the way you get your point across which can be quite intimidating at times. Relax, we are not fighting a war here lol


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## BATMAN

Let me remind that very recently InAF had discovered that the BVR missiles of MKI are expired and are not functioning correctly, hence major stock is useless.
Now a BVR less MKI will loose hands down to thunder.
remember redflag! how easily USAF shoot down MKI with guns!

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## desiman

BATMAN said:


> Let me remind that very recently InAF had discovered that the BVR missiles of MKI are expired and are not functioning correctly, hence major stock is useless.
> Now a BVR less MKI will loose hands down to thunder.
> remember redflag! how easily USAF shoot down MKI with guns!



*Indias ATRTA BVR to Undergo New Trials*

Indias homegrown air-to-air missile Astra will undergo its carriage trials which will have test pilots from the Aircraft systems and Testing Establishment taking off in a Su-30 MKI combat aircraft provided by the Indian Air Force. Astra missile has been successfully test fired earlier this year but the indigenization of the critical technology is yet to be perfected.

Officials revealed that evaluation tests and telemetry on the Su-30 is being done and the combat aircraft will be modified to carry the missile on it at the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). The trials will involve a mock Astra missile which is not electrically connected to the on-board system of the SU-30 and the missile will be devoid of explosives as well.
The trials will reveal the mechanical, structural and electrical compatibility aspect of the missile and the aircraft besides verifying the amount of strain on the aircraft. This first phase will involve the participation of 20 sorties and the second phase will verify the integration of the missiles avionics with the aircraft. The first phase will begin in January, 2009 and the second phase is expected in July 2009.

Presently, the Astra missile has a Russian Launcher and Seeker Head and they are yet to be integrated with the radar and other aspects of the missile.

Astra missile is a part of the Integrated Guided Missile Development Programme and is developed by a team of defence laboratories headed by the Defence Research and Development Laboratory (DRDL). Astra is designed for an 80 kilometre range in head-on mode and 20 km-range in tail-chase mode.

The beyond visual range missile has been integrated with the carrier aircraft Sukhoi-30 MKI and integration with other fighter jets like mirage 2000 and MiG 29 will be taken up after the guided test to verify its accuracy in destroying manoeuvring targets. Astra missile can be launched after receiving a signal from the far away target and it will seek and home in using a complex range of onboard manoeuvres based on radio frequency (RF).

DRDL took nearly five years to develop the 150-kg tactical missile. Before the control and guided tests, two experimental flight tests were conducted in March 2007 to study the ballistic performance and control of the missile at low altitudes and shorter ranges.


*And please stop talkng about red flag lol the argument is old and boring and is the only thing many people have found against the MKI. It still does not take anything away from the fact that the MKI is by far the best jet in the region. If you want i can post more updated info about Indian BVR missiles. *


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## kashith

BATMAN said:


> Let me remind that very recently InAF had discovered that the BVR missiles of MKI are expired and are not functioning correctly, hence major stock is useless.
> Now a BVR less MKI will loose hands down to thunder.
> remember redflag! how easily USAF shoot down MKI with guns!



Right.USAF is equivalent to PAF.Of course it makes sense.PAF will knock off MKI from the skies.

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## desiman

kashith said:


> Right.USAF is equivalent to PAF.Of course it makes sense.PAF will knock off MKI from the skies.




lol yup so true


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## BATMAN

kashith said:


> Right.USAF is equivalent to PAF.Of course it makes sense.PAF will knock off MKI from the skies.



i also remember reading following two crashes of MKI the fleet was declared not air worthy, hence was grounded!

Any updates? what was the cause of crash?

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## desiman

BATMAN said:


> i also remember reading following two crashes of MKI the fleet was declared not air worthy, hence was grounded!
> 
> Any updates? what was the cause of crash?



The black boxes have been recovered and are under analysis by a team of over 25 Russian Engineers from Sukhoi. Please do not make assumptions before you know the truth. There is not official statement yet. There was a Statement in the Indian Express about fuel leak but that is not confirmed yet by the IAF. I will post info as soon I get more info. I have some friends in Sukhoi and as per them its a combination of minor defects in the fly by wire system and a problem with the ejection system, but again not confirmed. But also its not as major as your statement that they are not air worthy, they remain as deadly as they were.


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## SBD-3

too much fantasy.........lot of fan boys...........i think i'm living in Utopia


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## nomi007

in next 10-20 years the only possible 5th generation fighter in air will be.

- F-22/ F-35
- PAK-FA
- J-XX/J-14
- Swedish stealth fighter
- Japanese stealth fighter 
not officially announced by paf


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## Join

nomi007 said:


> in next 10-20 years the only possible 5th generation fighter in air will be.
> 
> - F-22/ F-35
> - PAK-FA
> - J-XX/J-14
> - Swedish stealth fighter
> - Japanese stealth fighter
> *not officially announced by paf*



not officially announced by paf???


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## Dark Angel

BATMAN said:


> Please....stop getting bothered!
> JF-17 is their to develop and before PAKFA being inducted in any air force...JF-17 will certainly be improved in many areas. incl. design, wepons, engine, avionics....etc... so what shall we call it when all is improved to next generation?





Coudnt buy the french systems off the rack and convert it into 4+ gen fighter and seems some ppl have all the talking needed to convert it into a 5gen invisible fighter 

Just FYI i know why u do this in every post according to me analyzing you, the only reason u are here is to feed ur EGO i wish u luck

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## WAQAS119

Dark Angel said:


> Coudnt buy the french systems off the rack and convert it into 4+ gen fighter and seems some ppl have all the talking needed to convert it into a 5gen invisible fighter
> 
> Just FYI i know why u do this in every post according to me analyzing you, the only reason u are here is to feed ur EGO i wish u luck



And what was that!!!!
isn't this feeding ur ego???????

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## Dazzler

@Desi Man

It was nothing more than a simple question by BATMAN and I see no reason to get offended.

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## mughaljee

how long we should wait for this stealth fighter?


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## Mani2020

Is there any source for PAF going for stealthy jf-17 or all these just rumors, is there any internal source?


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## S-A-B-E-R->

ppl there may be a seprate version of mrca stelth under R&D but jf 17 is only getting very few structural and major aevionic and electronic up grades ....the amount of structural change ll be similar to the on j10 got in j10b thats it some ppl in paf said that they considered twin tail but it may cause a push down yaw in this kind of structure but giving it minor frontal stelthy features is possible which ll delay the time of detection by other AC but wont make trut stelth one..


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## aks

Dark Angel said:


> Coudnt buy the french systems off the rack and convert it into 4+ gen fighter and seems some ppl have all the talking needed to convert it into a 5gen invisible fighter
> 
> Just FYI i know why u do this in every post according to me analyzing you, the only reason u are here is to feed ur EGO i wish u luck



only u guys can make such invisible fighters

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## pakistantiger

y cnt jf17 hav syealthy features in it as the boeing f15 silent eagle have some stealth features, so does the jf-17 can have feature like them to make the 4++ generation to compete against any indian fighters like MKI and MRCA deal in current senario thnder is match up for mig29, mig27, bisons, jaguare, lca and will face tough fight against mirage2000 only mki and mrca is the threat from indian side the remainig air force of india is no problem for us


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## Icarus

A conventional aircraft can be made "stealthy" but not "stealth".
I believe that the project stated by the author refers to reducing the aircraft's radar cross section.
Making an aircraft stealth would require carbon composite materials, internal weapons bay and radar absorbent material, all this stuff will cost more than the JF-17 itself, making it impracticable to give it a stealth upgrade.
I don't think it can be made fifth gen either, though I know for a fact that all available JF-17 will be upgraded to 4.5 gen before 2015.

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## eht99

hi ,

i have a picture of YFC-1E

but dont know how to upload it


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## WAQAS119

eht99 said:


> hi ,
> 
> i have a picture of YFC-1E
> 
> but dont know how to upload it



hahaha!!!!!!!!!!

dude! upload it on Flickr.com or Imageshack.us and link it here.


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## farhan_9909

Nothing is impossible

bt with the current 5Bn budget we cannot even think about it.

if we join china we hav to atleast pay 3-4Bn to join the j-xx project
and if we want to buy any 5th generation.we must knw that one f-35 or j-xx will cost about 100Million


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## Frankenstein

mughaljee said:


> how long we should wait for this stealth fighter?



if this is news is authentic then it would take atleast 10 years


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## WAQAS119

farhan_9909 said:


> we must knw that one f-35 or j-xx will cost about 100Million



but as i read it somewhere that cost of f35 is almost 200 Million dollar.!!


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## ISRO

i think only possibility of Fight Generation Fighter for Pakistan is F 35 or if they want semi stealth so F15 silent eagle (USA made it for export) 

because without any help pakistan is not able to make even 4th gen fighter (same applied to india)


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## farhan_9909

WAQAS119 said:


> but as i read it somewhere that cost of f35 is almost 200 Million dollar.!!



no nt that much
PAKFA is supposed to cost 100Million
f-35 will cost 120 max
i heard its cost is 80Million


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## farhan_9909

ISRO said:


> i think only possibility of Fight Generation Fighter for Pakistan is F 35 or if they want semi stealth so F15 silent eagle (USA made it for export)
> 
> because without any help pakistan is not able to make even 4th gen fighter (same applied to india)



btoh are very expensive

we will buy j-xx///


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## ISRO

farhan_9909 said:


> btoh are very expensive
> 
> we will buy j-xx///



well i dnt want to start flam war here 

but no one know when will they come


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## peacemaker10

aimarraul said:


> i was overreact and didn't read the your post carefully,sorry,it's my fault,i thought you was indian....




hahaha ... 

that was awsome. you jumped with all the guns without even reading a post cauz you taught he is an Indian. 

I am sure your replies will be logical and worth reading ..


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## eht99

WAQAS119 said:


> hahaha!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> dude! upload it on Flickr.com or Imageshack.us and link it here.



sorry !! as i am new to this forum ...
i will post the link later . My chinese friend told me that YFC-1E is under development and he has given me its specs

A wingspan of 9.18 m

Captain 15.16 m

Height 4.65 m

Main Tread 2.71 m

Tread 5.12 meters before the main

Normal takeoff weight of 10,000 kg

Maximum takeoff weight of 13,800 kg

Plug-in capacity 3800 kg

2500 liters of fuel machine

The largest maximum Mach M1.72

Practical ceiling 17,500 meters maximum

Take off roll from the 435 m

Landing run distance of 680 m

Range of 2500 km

Limited overload 8G

but they are not confirmed


----------



## Super Falcon

JF 17X stilll do not exist because first we have to finish JF 17 project than stilll it is not surity that paf willl build succesor of JF 17 it is imagination of few people which stilll not even in papers


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## eht99

it is under development and no one can be sure about the specs of a under development aircraft , specially a chinese aircraft,

i also have a picture which i will post after my 15 post.


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## Sinnerman108

Do you people even understand what STEALTH technology is ?

If you do, can you please care to explain how will JF- what ever be molded into that ?


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## eht99

salman108 said:


> Do you people even understand what STEALTH technology is ?
> 
> If you do, can you please care to explain how will JF- what ever be molded into that ?



yes, we do understand what a stealth is , and to make the JF a stealth aircraft it will be redesigned and without redesigning it will never be a stealth fighter.


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## Sinnerman108

eht99 said:


> yes, we do understand what a stealth is , and to make the JF a stealth aircraft it will be redesigned and without redesigning it will never be a stealth fighter.



ahan,
and since now we have an Idea of what that entails, 

how is that different from conceiving and MAKING another air craft ?


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## mean_bird

A lot of people here think you can tweak a couple of things here and there and end up with a 'stealth' fighter. Unfortunately, they are living in their little worlds where their imagination ( or rather wishes) work just fine and anything and everything can be done by their brilliant piece of thinking - which no one else in the world had thought of or was simply incapable of doing. 

A 'stealth' fighter is not something that every tom, dick and harry's plane can be turned into. It has to be designed as a stealth fighter from the bottom up i.e. right from the first conceptual drawings. Otherwise, the US wouldnt have spent $50 billion on an F-22 but made a F-16X, F-14X and what not and Russia would have been having a SU-30X and Mig-29X ( for some reason everyone seems to associate an 'X' when fantasizing their favorite aircraft to become a stealth fighter so I kept the convention).

There will be no Stealth JF-17...EVER... because if there is, it won't be anything like the JF-17 and will be an entirely different plane. The best JF-17 will have is weight reduction and 'some' RCS reduction upgrades.

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## S-A-B-E-R->

mean_bird said:


> A lot of people here think you can tweak a couple of things here and there and end up with a 'stealth' fighter. Unfortunately, they are living in their little worlds where their imagination ( or rather wishes) work just fine and anything and everything can be done by their brilliant piece of thinking - which no one else in the world had thought of or was simply incapable of doing.
> 
> A 'stealth' fighter is not something that every tom, dick and harry's plane can be turned into. It has to be designed as a stealth fighter from the bottom up i.e. right from the first conceptual drawings. Otherwise, the US wouldnt have spent $50 billion on an F-22 but made a F-16X, F-14X and what not and Russia would have been having a SU-30X and Mig-29X ( for some reason everyone seems to associate an 'X' when fantasizing their favorite aircraft to become a stealth fighter so I kept the convention).
> 
> There will be no Stealth JF-17...EVER... because if there is, it won't be anything like the JF-17 and will be an entirely different plane. The best JF-17 will have is weight reduction and 'some' RCS reduction upgrades.



buddy i agree with u 100% the thing hear is we MAY be getting a stealth fighter MRCA or making one as my friend in AWC said but it ll not be jf17 ..the only up grades it ll get r basiclly in side its air frames and very little structural changes just like frm j10 to j10b ....bu stealth is not possible for jf17 yes there are thoughts of a single engin stealth fighter but that is not jf17 its designation is different and till now its still on papr not on runway....


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## applesauce

mean_bird said:


> A lot of people here think you can tweak a couple of things here and there and end up with a 'stealth' fighter. Unfortunately, they are living in their little worlds where their imagination ( or rather wishes) work just fine and anything and everything can be done by their brilliant piece of thinking - which no one else in the world had thought of or was simply incapable of doing.
> 
> A 'stealth' fighter is not something that every tom, dick and harry's plane can be turned into. It has to be designed as a stealth fighter from the bottom up i.e. right from the first conceptual drawings. Otherwise, the US wouldnt have spent $50 billion on an F-22 but made a F-16X, F-14X and what not and Russia would have been having a SU-30X and Mig-29X ( for some reason everyone seems to associate an 'X' when fantasizing their favorite aircraft to become a stealth fighter so I kept the convention).
> 
> There will be no Stealth JF-17...EVER... because if there is, it won't be anything like the JF-17 and will be an entirely different plane. The best JF-17 will have is weight reduction and 'some' RCS reduction upgrades.



err... well the PAK-FA does very obviously trace its roots to the su-27 you can kinda call it a su-30x


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## ptldM3

applesauce said:


> err... well the PAK-FA does very obviously trace its roots to the su-27 you can kinda call it a su-30x





Look at and SU-30 and look at the pak-fa, they have nothing in common, the closest thing the pak-fa and the SU-30 share is that they both have intakes that hang below the fusalage and that the engines are widely spaced, other than that they are night and day. "Kinda" calling the pak-fa an "SU-30X' is obsurd.

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## Chanakyaa

ptldM3 said:


> Look at and SU-30 and look at the pak-fa, they have nothing in common, the closest thing the pak-fa and the SU-30 share is that they both have intakes that hang below the fusalage and that the engines are widely spaced, other than that they are night and day. "Kinda" calling the pak-fa an "SU-30X' is obsurd.



You took my words...

Btw : This is Su 27 Inside View -







While This is 4.5 Gen ( Pak FA will have even Better ) Su 35 :



Mordern Fighters are More or Less 'Similar' under the factors *pltd* mentioned above... from Outside.


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## thunder rules

let paf make thunder enough strong to counter to indian mig 29 and mki's


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## applesauce

ptldM3 said:


> Look at and SU-30 and look at the pak-fa, they have nothing in common, the closest thing the pak-fa and the SU-30 share is that they both have intakes that hang below the fusalage and that the engines are widely spaced, other than that they are night and day. "Kinda" calling the pak-fa an "SU-30X' is obsurd.



the lineage is from the su-27 many people agree with this, look it up, there is nothing wrong with having its lineage from the su-27 as the pak-fa was never going for the full aspect stealth the way the f-22 did.


also the interior means little i can show you pics of the cockpits of old su-27 vs newer ones but that dont mean they are completely different planes


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## applesauce

XiNiX said:


> You took my words...
> 
> Btw : This is Su 27 Inside View -
> 
> While This is 4.5 Gen ( Pak FA will have even Better ) Su 35 :
> 
> 
> 
> Mordern Fighters are More or Less 'Similar' under the factors *pltd* mentioned above... from Outside.



even more to my point, the su-35 is definitely a derivative of the su-27


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## ahsanbd

Why not Pakistan joining with Indonesia and South Korean KFX 5.0 Gen fighter project? I think it will be best option for Pakistan 5.0 Gen fighter.


----------



## Mani2020

ahsanbd said:


> Why not Pakistan joining with Indonesia and South Korean KFX 5.0 Gen fighter project? I think it will be best option for Pakistan 5.0 Gen fighter.



South korean aerospace technology is not matured yet atleast not at par with the western, russians and even chinese .Till to date they have made only one fighter aircraft* "Ching kuo"* whose performance is not much known as it is only used by South Korea. so its a waste to put money in such a project which has so much ambiguity involved in it . if Paf can afford such thing then better to go for chinese jxx

Also there may b a lot of US tech involved in KFX


----------



## farhan_9909

what pak should do?

First of all make economy strong till 2015 that if we spend 5&#37; on GDP and it makes around 15-20Bn USD.
then start a indegenous 5th generation program and also buy j-xx frm china in 2020..


make economy strong first and then think about 5th generation or any other military stuff

with a limited 5 Bn budget we can hardly buy only the cheap jf-17 squaden per yearr

---------- Post added at 10:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:50 PM ----------

what pak should do?

First of all make economy strong till 2015 that if we spend 5% on GDP and it makes around 15-20Bn USD.
then start a indegenous 5th generation program and also buy j-xx frm china in 2020..


make economy strong first and then think about 5th generation or any other military stuff

with a limited 5 Bn budget we can hardly buy only the cheap jf-17 squaden per yearr


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## SomeGuy

ahsanbd said:


> Why not Pakistan joining with Indonesia and South Korean KFX 5.0 Gen fighter project? I think it will be best option for Pakistan 5.0 Gen fighter.



I read somewhere that KFX isn't going to be 5th gen, but rather similar in performance to advance F-16 and that they will still need foreign (American) technology assistance.


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## SomeGuy

Mani2020 said:


> South korean aerospace technology is not matured yet atleast not at par with the western, russians and even chinese .Till to date they have made only one fighter aircraft* "Ching kuo"* whose performance is not much known as it is only used by South Korea. so its a waste to put money in such a project which has so much ambiguity involved in it . if Paf can afford such thing then better to go for chinese jxx
> 
> Also there may b a lot of US tech involved in KFX



Ching Kuo is a Taiwanese plane. Definitely not Korean


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## Sanchez

SomeGuy said:


> I read somewhere that KFX isn't going to be 5th gen, but rather similar in performance to advance F-16 and that they will still need foreign (American) technology assistance.



SK and Japan have development programs for the next generation of fighter. Both of them are dependent on other country's engine, stealth tech, radars and etc.. And weapon systems too.

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## eht99

YFC-1E


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## Speeder 2

SomeGuy said:


> I read somewhere that KFX isn't going to be 5th gen, but rather similar in performance to advance F-16 and that they will still need foreign (American) technology assistance.



KFX aims to be 4+ fighter. It will rely on foreign engines/weapons at least.


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## shakilmughal

It is really nice to know that so many qualified people are taking part is such a positive debate. Everything ispossible and anything that one man can do, other can do.

Designing and building a stealth fighter is not easy but also not impossible. You gotta adopt three important elements to your design:
Low diameter
Single theme angles &
Low Radar signature paint

Drones are the best platform to step into era of stealth designing. Success would follow after success of Stealth Reconnaissance Drones. 

Today's jet fighters are too vulnerable to the dark electronic warefare technologies that we haven't even heard about. 

Ever heard about "City Stoppers"?

Electrno-magnetic Pulse devices, that dirupt all sort of electronic instruments in a vast area, will be used in any future war between the nations. 

Similarly, small countries like Pakistan should also focus on developing Electro Magnetic Pulse devices that Pakistan should be able to launch into the space to target any hostile Sattelite which is helping enemy to target Pakistan's infrastructure.

All military powers of the world are too dependant on Sattelite support to destroy a rather poorly equipped country in a shortest possible time. So the best is to target enemy sattelites before the battle begins. If you are afraid to destroy them with a direct hit, at least you can disrupt them by exploding EMP devices on it's path over your country's air space.

If we manage to develop such technology, nobody can touch Pakistan.


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## Luftwaffe

I see project KFX as history..
If KFX is going to rely on foreign engines and vice versa than F-15SE is fairly a better deal.


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## gambit

Let us take a look at the 'Hopeless Diamond'...

F-117 History


> Hopeless Diamond
> 
> During 1975, Skunk Work engineers began working on an aircraft which would have a greatly reduced radar cross section that would make it all but invisible to enemy radars, but would nevertheless still be able to fly and carry out its combat mission. The technique that they came up with was known as *faceting, in which the ordinarily smooth surface of the airframe is broken up into a series of trapezoidal or triangular flat surfaces.* The surfaces were arranged in such a way that the vast majority of the radar incident on the aircraft will be scattered away from the aircraft at odd angles, leaving very little to be reflected directly back into the receiver. An additional reduction in radar cross section was to be obtained by covering the entire surface of the aircraft with radar absorbent material (RAM). One of the disadvantages involved in the use of faceting on aerodynamic surfaces was that it tended to produce an aircraft which was inherently unstable about all three axes - pitch, roll, and yaw.


In the beginning, Lockheed created, not an aerodynamic model, but a low radar observable one. Lockheed engineers wanted to see how far they can 'push' this envelope. The result was the 'Hopeless Diamond' that is less radar reflective than the current F-117. The negative to that was the shape was so unflyable no matter how much they toyed with flight controls avionics and algorithms. As the shape evolve into a design that is controllable, could accommodate a pilot and some weapons load, the evolved design became more radar reflective than the 'Hopeless Diamond' shape.

This led to the philosophy of 'balanced stealth' where the aircraft should have these 'low points':

- radar reflection
- infrared
- acoustic
- visual
- contrails
- engine exhaust

Is it desirable to have zero infrared or exhaust emission? Yes, but if the aircraft is detectable in radar reflection or contrails then the cost and expense of reducing infrared and exhaust to zero was excessive. When cost is taken into consideration, and we must, then *ALL* detectable signatures should be reduced to a proportionate level to each other. In other words, testings should be done so that once infrared emission is reduced to where radar reflection became the dominant signature, time to stop work on infrared and redirect resources to reduce radar reflectivity.

This is very much applicable to modifying an existing aircraft design to become more 'stealthy' than its previous evolution, as in this 'balanced' approach.

Take the current JF-17 and measure its 'clean configuration' RCS. Then gradually load it with the various external doo-dads such as bombs or fuel tanks or targeting pods. All along the way take RCS measurements, the more precise the better. Now work on the base airframe. Install all the RAM anywhere possible. Shape the outer body as much as possible without compromising *ESTABLISHED* aerodynamic stability.

Now here is the clincher...

If, once re-loaded with all the various configurations of external doo-dads, this newly evolved JF-17 does not record at least a %50 reduction in measurable RCS at the same distance from prior measurements, then it is clear that the majority of the radar reflectivity came from the externals and not from the aircraft itself. This is why the RCS of a clean F-16 at 150-200 km distance is the official 'unofficial' standard for RCS reduction goal, either for a new design or modifying an existing one. The F-16 is small enough to make it difficult to detect across the entire spectrum and most fighter aircraft's radar antenna size limits their effective range to between that 150-200 km.

Same for infrared. For the modified clean JF-17, did its lowered radar reflectivity factor elevate infrared emission to the highest vulnerability? If yes, then stop working on radar reflectivity and redirect resources to do something to the engine. Once all known efforts tried and still infrared give the aircraft away *BEFORE* its radar reflectivity does, then a somewhat 'balanced' reduction between radar and IR have been achieved.

Same for contrails. If some outer airframe modifications to reduce radar reflectivity increases contrails, then one must bear the cost of such a wasted effort. Contrails should not be taken lightly. At the right environmental condition, an aircraft's contrails can be as nearly visible as the radar detectability distance. No shortages of contrails stories from WW II or later. Or this ==> Contrail Science - The Science and Pseudoscience of Contrails and Chemtrails

So is it possible to reduce the JF-17's detectability across the known spectrum? Yes. But one does not know to what degree until there is a dedicated exploratory program for it. Good luck.

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## Nahraf

mundaus said:


> JF-17X- A Pakistani Stealth Fighter



Are we going to get stuck at number 17 ? Do you know any number greater than 17 ? How about JF-17S space fighter in 2100 and JF-17G intergalactic fighter in 2150. 



mean_bird said:


> ....., the US wouldnt have spent $50 billion on an F-22 but made a F-16X, F-14X and what not and Russia would have been having a SU-30X and Mig-29X
> 
> There will be no Stealth JF-17...EVER... .



Exactly !

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## shakilmughal

Good job by Gambit and there is quality input though out this post.
We need jet builders in all our Enginnering Universities because solid air power guarantees protection of a country's strategic assets. Enemy would think thrice before bullying Pakistan. This country needs Sattelite Busters cause once the monster loses his eyes, you can hit him anywhere you want. 

No one can stop Pakistan from becoming a super power because this country is blessed with rivers, ocean, minerals, fertile land and intelligent people.
We just need to strengthen our agriculture and defence capability. 
Somebody got to take care of deadly corruption and inflation, which are far more dangerous than terrorism.

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## SBD-3

I honestly think This thread is like prehistoric dinosaurs....every now and then a poster digs this old thread out

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## shakilmughal

Dear Hasnain, this is what happens when you stick to web based forums for too long.... you will feel much better if you start doing something practically. 
There is no harm in being optimistic about your country.
AllahHafiz.


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## SBD-3

shakilmughal said:


> Dear Hasnain, this is what happens when you stick to web based forums for too long.... you will feel much better if you start doing something practically.
> There is no harm in being optimistic about your country.
> AllahHafiz.



Being optimistic is something appreciable but at the same time being realistic should also be the objective of a convincing debate....I can still remember that the thread opener was with out a source and even though i searched a lot... but I wasn't able to find it. There is no harm in being optimistic, but there should be a clear line between optimism and fantasy


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## malikkhawar

wait and watch


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## RazorMC

no stealth fighters any time soon.

btw an enemy AWACS greatly reduces stealth ability so I don't think PAF will see the need to spend so much money on something that vulnerable. The Chinese have already developed a radar that scans below 2 GHz (but too much clutter) so there is no stealth below that range.

The JF-17 is too small to have internal weapons carriage to make it stealthy in the first place, plus the radar cross-section is too big unless we redesign the wings and fuselage and the air-intakes.


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## malikkhawar

PAF work more on JF-17


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## Maverick1269

ya its right. you need to change control surfaces, major contours and also the exhaust design. for stealth feature, its RCS must be reduced by incorporating airframe design changes which results in change in aerodynamic performance of aircraft. so it is not feasible to apply stealth on JF-17. Moreover, its not in future plans of JF-17. So dont just carried away by hypothetical videos on youtube....


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## Storm Force

Please dont take this as trolling 

A little of perspective is needed with this JF17 semi stealth business or sino pak fifth gen project business.

JF17 is a low cost budget fighter. The totally development cost was very small in deed. The fly away cost of $15m reflects the time. energy and the technology in the project. 

BY THE WAY I THINK ITS A FINE PLANE FOR SOUTH ASIAN NEEDS AT very little cost. 

COMPARE the marginally bigger J10/FC20 project which has been in development longer 3 times the budget and costs $30m each. YET it is not in the same catagory as Typhoon or Rafale projects in terms of cockpit tech ,electronics radar and jammers. 

To develope a REAL FIFTH gen fighter you need to compare time and cost with a similar project

PAK FA will cost upwards of $15 billion and will not enter service with Russia before 2018 and india 2020 and both these countries have huge advantages that are not open to either pakistan or china. 

In india case access to open western Europe or israeli technology esp in cockpit sensor fusion and radar work
Russia vast aero space edge over china and succesful building projects and base in place already. 

WITH THIS MIND BE CAREFUL OF EXPECTING A SUPER JF17 semi stleath fighter ever arriving and even if it did dont expect this before 2020


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## SF7PAKISTAN

1.we fought the russians in 80s we shot down many of their jets and lost only one of ours
2.we shot down ef 2000s of raf in red flag
3.you lost three wars from us
4.we are the only sucessful airforce against isreal
and why you are dumb ???
COZ YOU HAVE GOT WORST CRASH RECORD IN THE WORLD LOLZZZZZZZZZZZZ


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## illuminatidinesh

> 1.we fought the russians in 80s we shot down many of their jets and lost only one of ours
> 2.we shot down ef 2000s of raf in red flag
> 3.you lost three wars from us
> 4.we are the only sucessful airforce against isreal
> and why you are dumb ???
> COZ YOU HAVE GOT WORST CRASH RECORD IN THE WORLD LOLZZZZZZZZZZZZ



Thread was so well until U came...


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Storm Force said:


> Please dont take this as trolling
> 
> A little of perspective is needed with this JF17 semi stealth business or sino pak fifth gen project business.
> 
> JF17 is a low cost budget fighter. The totally development cost was very small in deed. The fly away cost of $15m reflects the time. energy and the technology in the project.
> 
> BY THE WAY I THINK ITS A FINE PLANE FOR SOUTH ASIAN NEEDS AT very little cost.
> 
> COMPARE the marginally bigger J10/FC20 project which has been in development longer 3 times the budget and costs $30m each. YET it is not in the same catagory as Typhoon or Rafale projects in terms of cockpit tech ,electronics radar and jammers.
> 
> To develope a REAL FIFTH gen fighter you need to compare time and cost with a similar project
> 
> PAK FA will cost upwards of $15 billion and will not enter service with Russia before 2018 and india 2020 and both these countries have huge advantages that are not open to either pakistan or china.
> 
> In india case access to open western Europe or israeli technology esp in cockpit sensor fusion and radar work
> Russia vast aero space edge over china and succesful building projects and base in place already.
> 
> WITH THIS MIND BE CAREFUL OF EXPECTING A SUPER JF17 semi stleath fighter ever arriving and even if it did dont expect this before 2020


 
According to the news its price is around* 25 million $$ per unit*....... Go through the thread abt JFTs sales..........rest of ur post is nothin but full of rants.

Pakistan says wants China to build naval base | Reuters

@sf7 dude delete ur post........nd other members just ignore it.


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## Dr. Strangelove

i m telling u there is no stealth jf17 in my openion pakistan and china are working on a different plane which u say is jf17x 
jf17x is only remour


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## Babur Han

> Please dont take this as trolling
> 
> A little of perspective is needed with this JF17 semi stealth business or sino pak fifth gen project business.
> 
> JF17 is a low cost budget fighter. The totally development cost was very small in deed. The fly away cost of $15m reflects the time. energy and the technology in the project.
> 
> BY THE WAY I THINK ITS A FINE PLANE FOR SOUTH ASIAN NEEDS AT very little cost.



JF-17 will not be used for Air Superiority Role, the Purposes of JF-17 are Point Air Defence, Fighter Bomber Missions and CAS. For Air Superiority Missions PAF will induct J-10B.




> COMPARE the marginally bigger J10/FC20 project which has been in development longer 3 times the budget and costs $30m each. YET it is not in the same catagory as Typhoon or Rafale projects in terms of cockpit tech ,electronics radar and jammers.
> 
> To develope a REAL FIFTH gen fighter you need to compare time and cost with a similar project
> 
> PAK FA will cost upwards of $15 billion and will not enter service with Russia before 2018 and india 2020 and both these countries have huge advantages that are not open to either pakistan or china.
> 
> In india case access to open western Europe or israeli technology esp in cockpit sensor fusion and radar work
> Russia vast aero space edge over china and succesful building projects and base in place already.
> 
> WITH THIS MIND BE CAREFUL OF EXPECTING A SUPER JF17 semi stleath fighter ever arriving and even if it did dont expect this before 2020



Pakistan have a Doctrine of minimum Credible Detterence, the Doctrine does not forese to Counter all indian Efforts 1:1 ! Minimum credible Detterence mean to inflict the highest possible Damage to the Agressor and not to defeat them. India should be detteret from an Action against Pakistan ! You say India have Access to european and Israeli Technology, but Pakistan have also Access to turkish and chinese Technology !


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## Storm Force

Babur there is no such thing as Turkish Technology.

Even India that is SENDING SATALITES into space and nuclear missles and helicopters as MORE military tech than Turkey. 

Plz dont insult the massive CORPRATIONS OF EADS, MBDA, DASSULT OR ISRAEL by comparing them with Turkey. 

My post was merely highlighting the outrageous claims of steath JF17 and semi stealth projects which is FANBOY dreams.

I am trying to bring some reality to the thread


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## ledworld

Never heard the development of it in China.
Maybe stealth paint could be applied. But never the real stealth

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## emoriphious

Thank you Obama/Osama for giving Stealth Technology(Stealth Helicopter Tail) to Pakistan

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## Donatello

iRobot said:


> *JF-17 is to fighter planes what Tata Nano is to cars. *


...Tata Nano is to Auto-Rickshaws...


there, corrected for you.


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## Comet

iRobot said:


> *JF-17 is to fighter planes what Tata Nano is to cars. *


 
That is a very derogatory remark.. If you do not have anything positive to contribute then kindly keep it shut.

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## Emmie

iRobot said:


> *JF-17 is to fighter planes what Tata Nano is to cars. *



We are happy with it, dont need a certificate of it being a devastator from you.


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## Storm Force

ON A SERIOUS NOTE.

This JF17 stealth IS it a upgrade on the current one OR A TOTALLY NEW DESIGN. 

i hope wen you mean Stealth you mean some thing like these


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## Storm Force

Those 3 above are genuine stealth fighters and alonside the JSF F35 will be the premeire combat airfrcraft post 2020

unless of course this JF17X comes along


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## Safriz

wasm95 said:


> i m telling u there is no stealth jf17 in my openion pakistan and china are working on a different plane which u say is jf17x
> *jf17x is only remou*r



so was F 117 anf F 22... just a rumor...


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## Dr. Strangelove

safriz said:


> so was F 117 anf F 22... just a rumor...


 
jf 17 cant be upgraded to a stealth plane ill bet it 
but if there is a jf17x then
it has totaly new designe

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

JF17 thunder would have to hide weapons , as the Silent Eagle and also have proper coating to protect reflections


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## Storm Force

if only it was that easy

we would still be flying super sarbes and mig19


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## S-A-B-E-R->

check this out 
Google Image Result for http://www.patricksaviation.com/uploads/photos/37913.jpg


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## khurasaan1

ok kool...guyz...nice discussionz....


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## Xracer

Pakistan Military Review: Stealthy Version of JF-17 Thunder on Cards

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## mujahiddin

sky17 said:


> Nothing is impossible. Inshallah PAF will have its own 5th generation fighter air craft.



inshallah it will be happen in ur dreams.

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## Doctor09

mujahiddin said:


> inshallah it will be happen in ur dreams.


Dont worry our dreams will become reality.......... i think u need sleeping pills..............insominia is not good for health
regard..

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## Dr. Strangelove

doctor09 said:


> Dont worry our dreams will become reality.......... i think u need sleeping pills..............insominia is not good for health
> regard..



my friend there is no stealth jf17 
we cant make it stealth without major redesigne


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## Doctor09

wasm95 said:


> my friend there is no stealth jf17
> we cant make it stealth without major redesigne


friend....i think we were talking about own fifth generation aircraft not particularly JF 17......it was a general comment and reply


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## Dr. Strangelove

doctor09 said:


> friend....i think we were talking about own fifth generation aircraft not particularly JF 17......it was a general comment and reply


this thread is about jf17x


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## raveolution

There will be NO JF-17 Stealth!! Please do not misunderstand the term. It is not possible to make any aircraft into a stealth aircraft without MAJOR redesigning which would tantamount to a brand new airframe and essentially a different platform. At best, these aircraft can have a reduced RCS which is not the same as "stealth".

And the single engine fifth generation fighter being developed in China is a high probability but may have little or no similarity to the JF-17. So why are we calling it JF-17 Stealth??


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## ben10

SF7PAKISTAN said:


> 1.we fought the russians in 80s we shot down many of their jets and lost only one of ours
> 2.we shot down ef 2000s of raf in red flag
> 3.you lost three wars from us
> 4.we are the only sucessful airforce against isreal
> and why you are dumb ???
> COZ YOU HAVE GOT WORST CRASH RECORD IN THE WORLD LOLZZZZZZZZZZZZ




very interesting. so why you leave US,UK and FRANCE.


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## Jango

Stealth cannot be made just like that. I think what is meant is RAM coating, improved edges, improved chines, improved use of Carbon cmposites.


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## VCheng

nuclearpak said:


> Stealth cannot be made just like that. I think what is meant is RAM coating, improved edges, improved chines, improved use of Carbon cmposites.



Or alternatively, one could hang a potent _ta'weez_ from the rear view mirror!


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## Jango

VCheng said:


> Or alternatively, one could hang a potent _ta'weez_ from the rear view mirror!


 
this could work,


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## [--Leo--]

raveolution said:


> There will be NO JF-17 Stealth!! Please do not misunderstand the term. It is not possible to make any aircraft into a stealth aircraft without MAJOR redesigning which would tantamount to a brand new airframe and essentially a different platform. At best, these aircraft can have a reduced RCS which is not the same as "stealth".
> 
> And the single engine fifth generation fighter being developed in China is a high probability but may have little or no similarity to the JF-17. So why are we calling it JF-17 Stealth??



Give me a break will you what was that the JF-17 Block 2 will have less RCS but not it is not stealth version Have you seen the slient egale F-15 how they desgin so JF-17 can be stealth if not they can re-desgin it whats the problem they made 1 they can make another we call it jf-17 stealth version coz it is co-production JF=joint fighter now stop asking silly questions that you are asking for 3 years how many times you face the answer you won,t acpt it


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## [--Leo--]

ben10 said:


> very interesting. so why you leave US,UK and FRANCE.



oh yes we want them to provide you weapon if they stop what you will gona do?climbing trees and throwing bomb from there no doubt you can do that hats off=))


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## [--Leo--]

mujahiddin said:


> inshallah it will be happen in ur dreams.



INSHALLAH Every Dream becomes reality our nuclear plane becomes reality 
cruise missiles becomes reality
JF-17 becomes reality........etc many more

conclusion : for every reality we have to see dreams

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## Mujraparty

[--Leo--];2082619 said:


> INSHALLAH Every Dream becomes reality *our nuclear plane becomes reality *
> cruise missiles becomes reality
> JF-17 becomes reality........etc many more
> 
> conclusion : for every reality we have to see dreams


 
OMG..you have a nukular plane


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## [--Leo--]

eowyn said:


> OMG..you have a nukular plane



oh yes just nuke the indian,s thats the plane)i hope you are interested


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## S-A-B-E-R->

there is somthing new i herd IDK if the news is related with JF or some other X plane but china just revealed a Weapons carrying pod to a very close AF (PAK) some one gave me shrewed info on the pod it said that the system will be carried under wing not under belly as an existing system does and it will have carrage space for 2 weapons AIR to AIR. another guy also said it can also hold fuel .it is not particulary confirmed but to give it some root there was news about a weapons carrying pod a year back on this forum.

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## SBD-3

S-A-B-E-R-> said:


> there is somthing new i herd IDK if the news is related with JF or some other X plane but china just revealed a Weapons carrying pod to a very close AF (PAK) some one gave me shrewed info on the pod it said that the system will be carried under wing not under belly as an existing system does and it will have carrage space for 2 weapons AIR to AIR. another guy also said it can also hold fuel .it is not particulary confirmed but to give it some root there was news about a weapons carrying pod a year back on this forum.


Well its not something new, yanks tried to do this also, but it wasn't that successful i think, Boeing's idea for using CFTs as internal weapons bay was more successful. 





Russians have also been doing this but since we dont have an operational one, I will assume that it turned out to be unworkable like US.Here are pics for this pod being tested for Su-30MKK2 (which implies that China had this as a requirement)

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## Mani2020

hasnain0099 said:


> Well its not something new, yanks tried to do this also, but it wasn't that successful i think, Boeing's idea for using CFTs as internal weapons bay was more successful.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Russians have also been doing this but since we dont have an operational one, I will assume that it turned out to be unworkable like US.Here are pics for this pod being tested for Su-30MKK2 (which implies that China had this as a requirement)



Hasnain this technique is known as "cocoon" technique and the box you see (which you referred as fuel tank) is referred as a "cocoon", this is a technique in which weapons are enclosed in a box which plays a role like that of an hatch , or in simple words you can say it a kind of protective case on the weapons in order to hide them as a result reducing their RCS . similar technique was adopted for boeing f-18 stealth version , it can be done on any aircraft including jf-17 but only if the manufacture or the buyer is willing to go for it

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## SBD-3

Mani2020 said:


> Hasnain this technique is known as "cocoon" technique and the box you see (which you referred as fuel tank) is referred as a "cocoon", this is a technique in which weapons are enclosed in a box which plays a role like that of an hatch , or in simple words you can say it a kind of protective case on the weapons in order to hide them as a result reducing their RCS . similar technique was adopted for boeing f-18 stealth version , it can be done on any aircraft including jf-17 but only if the manufacture or the buyer is willing to go for it


thanx for explaining this.....

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## lindily

&#37027;&#20010;&#27516;17&#20854;&#23454;&#26159;&#27516;11B&#30340;&#38544;&#36523;&#25913;&#33391;&#29256;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;


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## Tija

[--Leo--];2082804 said:


> oh yes just nuke the indian,s thats the plane)i hope you are interested



Ha ha ha..............


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## S-A-B-E-R->

Mani2020 said:


> Hasnain this technique is known as "cocoon" technique and the box you see (which you referred as fuel tank) is referred as a "cocoon", this is a technique in which weapons are enclosed in a box which plays a role like that of an hatch , or in simple words you can say it a kind of protective case on the weapons in order to hide them as a result reducing their RCS . similar technique was adopted for boeing f-18 stealth version , it can be done on any aircraft including jf-17 but only if the manufacture or the buyer is willing to go for it


well in our case buyrs look intrested in this tech .


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## Cool_Soldier

can anyone tell me that there is any prototype ready for this JF17x version..?


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## PakShaheen79

^^ Everything is speculation. People don't have any exact idea about JFT Block II yet and this stealthier version is pure speculation at best.


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## Dazzler

Mani2020 said:


> Hasnain this technique is known as "cocoon" technique and the box you see (which you referred as fuel tank) is referred as a "cocoon", this is a technique in which weapons are enclosed in a box which plays a role like that of an hatch , or in simple words you can say it a kind of protective case on the weapons in order to hide them as a result reducing their RCS . similar technique was adopted for boeing f-18 stealth version , it can be done on any aircraft including jf-17 but only if the manufacture or the buyer is willing to go for it



The box under SU-30 fuselage is not weapon carriage pod but M-400 side looking radar proposed to Chinese with MK2 version. On topic though, yes there is a proposal for additional payload stealthy pod but it is still a proposal. More details on M-400 below.

NEWS DEVELOPMENTS IN RUSSIA-CHINA MILITARY RELATIONS: A REPORT ON THE AUGUST 19-23 2003 MOSCOW AEROSPACE SALON (MAKS)

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## Avatar

Cool_Soldier said:


> can anyone tell me that there is any prototype ready for this JF17x version..?



JF-17x is more of a fanboy project than a real project. China has it's hands full with it's own stealth fighter which might later make its way to PAF, and anyways China itself isn't using JF-17s. Besides, Pakistan does not have the skill and the resources to modify JF-17 into a stealth fighter, even if it's feasible.


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## SBD-3

Avatar said:


> JF-17x is more of a fanboy project than a real project. China has it's hands full with it's own stealth fighter which might later make its way to PAF, and anyways China itself isn't using JF-17s. Besides, Pakistan does not have the skill and the resources to modify JF-17 into a stealth fighter, even if it's feasible.


I wonder........sometimes I do wonder......Why do posters like you are evermore willing to "grace" us with such "estonishing" comments....Its a pitty, honestly.

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## ANG

Hi Mr. Hasnain0099, thanks for the polite response and not spamming back. The PAF is not planning on making the JF-17 fully stealth, as you cannot do that. A plane has to be designed for stealth at the time of inception. Rather they are planning on including RCS reducing measures.

In regards to China not buying the JF-17, I will not even get into that. The PAF is planning on inducting 300 JF-17s. This will keep production humming along in Kamra.

Lastly, the PAF is fully aware of what technology it needs to induct in the future, as the Abbottabad raid was an eye opener. They are working with China on a new stealth design.

PAF and Next Generation Stealth Fighter Program J-2X Confirmed ~ ASIAN DEFENCE NEWS

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## Night_Raven

ahsanbd said:


> Why not Pakistan joining with Indonesia and South Korean KFX 5.0 Gen fighter project? I think it will be best option for Pakistan 5.0 Gen fighter.



No way because :

1. South Korea will not allow Pakistan into the project due to its North Korea history.
2. Pakistan currently has no $$$ to support a fifth-gen fighter development program.


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## ANG

Hi, the KFX contains western technology. This is a key quote that describes the KFX fighter.

_South Korea will fund 60% of the aircraft's development, and expects foreign partners to provide the remaining 40% of the development funding.[5] South Korea possesses 63% of the necessary technology to produce the KF-X, and is therefore seeking cooperation from Indonesian Aerospace, Turkish Aerospace Industries, Saab, Boeing, and Lockheed Martin to develop the KF-X. About 120 KF-Xs would be built initially and more than 130 aircraft would be produced additionally after the first-phase models reach operational capability.[6] The cost of each KF-X aircraft is estimated to be roughly $50 million +._

Do you honestly think the US or any European country would supply that kind of technology to Pakistan? If they did it would be in China that very day. Moreover, given the threat of sanctions, and cost of these projects, Pakistan has no choice but to partner with China.


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## SBD-3

Night_Raven said:


> No way because :
> 
> 1. South Korea will not allow Pakistan into the project due to its North Korea history.
> 2. Pakistan currently has no $$$ to support a fifth-gen fighter development program.


Once again, I have to say....
1- Why would Pakistan ask South Korea for a *Conceptual 4.5th* Gen aircraft (KFX is expected to be a 4.5th Gen, not 5th Gen, as South Korea is looking for JSF to be their 5th Gen platform.) when it already has a promising *Operational 4.5th* Gen (J-10B aka FC-20) in its bag? Its not rocket science, a simple logic i guess. Secondly, Turks were also initially interested in KFX but Koreans were not willing to offer significant interest (20% each for Turkey and Indonesia while rest for themselves) which even forced Turks to reconsider. I dont know why Indonesians went in with this while they could have much better options from China and Russia.
2-Pakistan did not had $$$ is an interesting option...Indians are not willing to come out of this dilemma. Perhaps thats why their first response for every Pakistani military procurment comes "from where did they get $$$?".... anyways, enough said..

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## Battle Axe

Fine with all that, but will someone refurbish the airframe of Thunder to something more slick. That must must be on top of piriority, if we are looking for any export orders.


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## Avatar

hasnain0099 said:


> I wonder........sometimes I do wonder......Why do posters like you are evermore willing to "grace" us with such "estonishing" comments....Its a pitty, honestly.



Why shoot the messenger for telling the truth sir ? 

There are more productive things for you to wonder about. 

Besides, I think you mean astonishing.


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## SBD-3

Avatar said:


> Why shoot the messenger for telling the truth sir ?
> 
> There are more productive things for you to wonder about.
> 
> Besides, I think you mean astonishing.


Look, its not very difficult to realize that JFT will *Never* become a 5th Gen stealth, because this would require a complete revamp, including frame expansion, which would at least make it a Medium Class fighter, at least, not a JF-17 class one. The other more realistic option discussed to death is that there will be a limited tweaking of the system which could help reducing its radar cross section significantly. i.e. Canted Tails, Reduction of IR signature, RAM, IRST (Subsititution of Radar Sig at short range). E'm not shooting you, but pointing to the fact that this thing has been discussed to "many deaths" in this thread. If you would have gone through the thread, I am sure that you would not have any need to repeat the point.


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## Korean

Night_Raven said:


> 1. South Korea will not allow Pakistan into the project due to its North Korea history.
> 2. Pakistan currently has no $$$ to support a fifth-gen fighter development program.


Bingo.



hasnain0099 said:


> Turks were also initially interested in KFX but Koreans were not willing to offer significant interest (20% each for Turkey and Indonesia while rest for themselves) which even forced Turks to reconsider.



Turkey holding rival talks on aircraft with Koreans, Swedes - Hurriyet Daily News



> Turkey holding rival talks on aircraft with Koreans, Swedes
> Font Size: Larger|Smaller
> Monday, August 22, 2011
> ÜM&#304;T ENG&#304;NSOY
> 
> ANKARA &#8211; Hürriyet Daily News
> 
> Besides an ongoing plan to develop a fighter jet program with the US or Europe, Turkey is seeking to broaden its fleet with a second option. South Korea&#8217;s KAI and Sweden&#8217;s Saab are the two possible partners, according to a Turkish procurement official. Turkey is supposed to take part in the design of the possible project



And then the Turks came back to the negociating table after shopping around at EADS(Eurofighter 2020) and Saab(P305 5th gen fighter program). Couldn't find a better deal elsewhere.

The final term is 30% share($1.5 billion development funding contribution and 75 jets minimum purchase), take it or leave it because there is another country also in the talks.



> I dont know why Indonesians went in with this while they could have much better options from China and Russia.


Well, Indonesia just picked Korean sub over Russian and German/Turkish sub for $1 billion sub deal too, so they must be seeing what you do not see or understand.


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## SBD-3

Korean said:


> Bingo.
> 
> 
> 
> Turkey holding rival talks on aircraft with Koreans, Swedes - Hurriyet Daily News
> 
> 
> 
> And then the Turks came back to the negociating table after shopping around at EADS(Eurofighter 2020) and Saab(P305 5th gen fighter program). Couldn't find a better deal elsewhere.
> 
> The final term is 30% share($1.5 billion development funding contribution and 75 jets minimum purchase), take it or leave it because there is another country also in the talks.
> 
> 
> Well, Indonesia just picked Korean sub over Russian and German/Turkish sub for $1 billion sub deal too, so they must be seeing what you do not see or understand.


1-5th Gen platform for TuAF is JSF, not EDAS EF-2000 or SAAB P305. In fact, SAAB P305 offers the same prospective as of KFX- Both are still on the drawing board. Turkey is also short of options as Turkey has historically been in western bloc, keeping itself distanced from other two possible 5th gen operators i.e. Russia and China. With options crippled, it made perfect sense for Turks to seek fallback options to JSF, which are both practically on drawing boards. So in a way, Turkey made a smart move by using bargaining leverage to force RoK to increase its stake from 20% to 30%. 
2-Picking subs doesn't necessarily mean that country will also participate in an aerial platform. Secondly, AFAIK, ROK operates licensed produced Type 209 and Type 214, I am not aware of any indigenous operational design.

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## houshanghai

hasnain0099 said:


> Look, its not very difficult to realize that JFT will *Never* become a 5th Gen stealth, because this would require a complete revamp, including frame expansion, which would at least make it a Medium Class fighter, at least, not a JF-17 class one. The other more realistic option discussed to death is that there will be a limited tweaking of the system which could help reducing its radar cross section significantly. i.e. Canted Tails, Reduction of IR signature, RAM, IRST (Subsititution of Radar Sig at short range). E'm not shooting you, but pointing to the fact that this thing has been discussed to "many deaths" in this thread. If you would have gone through the thread, I am sure that you would not have any need to repeat the point.




I personally think JFT variant with diamond shape nose in the rumour&#65292;which may not JFT BLK2.
Bcz there have important airframe changes in the new PT JFT variant's forward fuselage.So this New JFT variant may need at least 5 prototypes to test like J10B and require a lot of time.

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## Mani2020

S-A-B-E-R-> said:


> well in our case buyrs look intrested in this tech .



Its not that simple as you made it lol

In our case most of the buyers of jf-17 are third world countries which are already cash strapped looking for cheap bvr capable variants to replace their ageing/obsolete aircrafts .These are mostly the countries (with the exception of 1 0r 2) which even don't have basic bvr missiles and still alien to many new technologies let alone this latest concept . They will not be willing to pay extra bucks for that besides that they still are not into this sophisticated arena so they will be more willing to buy the basic variant with bvr capability that will be enough for them .

But PAF being the biggest customer can use this technique for themselves only if they are willing to

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## Mani2020

nabil_05 said:


> The box under SU-30 fuselage is not weapon carriage pod but M-400 side looking radar proposed to Chinese with MK2 version. On topic though, yes there is a proposal for additional payload stealthy pod but it is still a proposal. More details on M-400 below.
> 
> NEWS DEVELOPMENTS IN RUSSIA-CHINA MILITARY RELATIONS: A REPORT ON THE AUGUST 19-23 2003 MOSCOW AEROSPACE SALON (MAKS)



nabil i was referring to the boeing f-18 ,about su-30 the picture was originally posted by hasnain and was only quoted by me along with rest of his post 

anywayz still thanks for sharing it


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## SQ8

Apparently the CGI still attracts.
The JF has limits to redesign and payload increase.
And while its compatible with the PW-F-100.. finding F-100's isnt going to be easy.
There is a small chance of getting anything from the Russians in terms of a Rd-93 upgrade as the Indians have lobbied to set certain limits.

With that in mind, the most one can do to the JF is redesign within weight limits.
A redesign that ends up reducing the payload isnt useful. Adding composites isnt magic either.
Avionics and weapons diversity may be upgraded.. but that is what will be seen in the Block-II..which will be the final variant of the thunder in terms of design.

The JF will never be a stealth fighter as such, and the carriage of weapons such as the SD-10 will give it a considerable RCS at most angles except perhaps the front.

The wish to see a stealth design in Pakistani colors may have to fall to another Chinese design, which may still be on the drawing board.. or perhaps in some conceptual CGI or A4 paper.. which we will not know unless somebody get wind of it.. or it pops up on a Chinese site.

it is best to bury the ideas of the CGi or any Stealth JF-17X,Y or Z.

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## Korean

hasnain0099 said:


> 1-5th Gen platform for TuAF is JSF, not EDAS EF-2000 or SAAB P305.


Who says that Turkey wants to have only one 5th gen model in service? Although that's what's likely to happen, since Koreans are sharing engineering for Block 1 model only(Stealth external shape, but no LPI radar and RAM application), and the full stealth rating not achieved by the proprietary Block 2 version(Full stealth with LPI radar and datalink).

I am sure Korean military will upgrade Block 1 into Block 2s, but will most likely not sell this tech to others. 



> 2-Picking subs doesn't necessarily mean that country will also participate in an aerial platform


I was talking about the attractiveness of an arms selling country's offerings. 



> Secondly, AFAIK, ROK operates licensed produced Type 209 and Type 214, I am not aware of any indigenous operational design.


Supposedly Koreans acquired derivative selling rights when they bought the U-209 from HDW. So what Korea is selling to Indonesia isn't a stock U-209.


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## BelligerentPacifist

Santro said:


> ...
> There is a small chance of getting anything from the Russians in terms of a Rd-93 upgrade as the Indians have lobbied to set certain limits.
> ...


Could you expound on those limits a little please?


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## SQ8

BelligerentPacifist said:


> Could you expound on those limits a little please?



Primarily on the level of tech that is to be exported.
It has to be a level less than India.
Which is why I am also skeptical on how any FC-20's could have Al-31 derivatives that offer TVC.


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## S-A-B-E-R->

Mani2020 said:


> Its not that simple as you made it lol
> 
> In our case most of the buyers of jf-17 are third world countries which are already cash strapped looking for cheap bvr capable variants to replace their ageing/obsolete aircrafts .These are mostly the countries (with the exception of 1 0r 2) which even don't have basic bvr missiles and still alien to many new technologies let alone this latest concept . They will not be willing to pay extra bucks for that besides that they still are not into this sophisticated arena so they will be more willing to buy the basic variant with bvr capability that will be enough for them .
> 
> But PAF being the biggest customer can use this technique for themselves only if they are willing to


ya i know but the fact is this and another SAC project is under PAF's eye they want to make jf stealthy to a level where it becoms hard to detect at medium BVR engagement ranges and its low radar rangr can be compansated but the twin engin project although unaurthodox for PAF is also underconcideration gust a little somthing from a frind in the force.

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## razgriz19

doesn't matter how much they redesign the nose or tail, but once you put weapons its gonna be as visible as it was before on radar.


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## Mani2020

S-A-B-E-R-> said:


> ya i know but the fact is this and another SAC project is under PAF's eye they want to make jf stealthy to a level where it becoms hard to detect at medium BVR engagement ranges and its low radar rangr can be compansated but the twin engin project although unaurthodox for PAF is also underconcideration gust a little somthing from a frind in the force.



When PAF is already offered J2x and the design will be selected according to PAF wish then i wonder why PAF would like to go for twin engine aircraft that too form SAC , which by the way is also still not developed neither we have seen any prototype of that. But for me PAF is already quite busy with jf-17 induction, upgradation and FC-20 stuff so i don't see them to rush into things , my gut feeling is that if J2X is a reality i don't see PAF going for a twin engine


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## [--Leo--]

razgriz19 said:


> doesn't matter how much they redesign the nose or tail, but once you put weapons its gonna be as visible as it was before on radar.



then why rafale and typhoon called semi-stealth :-?


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## Obambam

[--Leo--];2152708 said:


> then why rafale and typhoon called semi-stealth :-?



It means they are not true stealth


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## S-A-B-E-R->

Mani2020 said:


> When PAF is already offered J2x and the design will be selected according to PAF wish then i wonder why PAF would like to go for twin engine aircraft that too form SAC , which by the way is also still not developed neither we have seen any prototype of that. But for me PAF is already quite busy with jf-17 induction, upgradation and FC-20 stuff so i don't see them to rush into things , my gut feeling is that if J2X is a reality i don't see PAF going for a twin engine


 
i agree with u on the time line but the fact is PAK FA is comming soon and no matter how much we degrade it it is still better than any thing we have so PAF is looking for future measures and thus all posibilitys r considered but that does not mean any thing is finalised as u said PAF have it hands full already, J2x is a project based on JF 17 as i said before it will be a stealthy version of Jf without the Internal weapons bay and thus the external low-ob weapons pod which is actually a dulemissle carrage covered with a angular stealthy pod. lets not forget that PAF in this decade looked at a lot of twin engin designe and only the lack of funds made us reject them but china on a MOU said a stealthy twin engin jet with Dsi TVC AESA IRST and some other goodies was developed keeping paf in mind and yes WS10 was the engin of choice and the jet was suppose to be in the catogery of an MMRCAand not a heavy fighterlike J20 F22Su series etc.

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## ANG

Hi, China is making great progress in this technology arena. The PAF should urgently pursue a customized JV with China to get a stealth platform developed.

China's SAC J-18 Stealth Fighter Jet ~ ASIAN DEFENCE NEWS


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## isi admirer

Skywalker said:


> 1965 - us
> 1971 - u
> 
> Happy



we lose the battle of 1971 bt it was not a war b/w pakistan and india it was a civil war in east pakistan bt we lose this 

bt what about 1965 man it was war in which your army along with equipment of west which was provided to you by westran countries because of sino indian war you lose that and and what about 1947

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