# PAF Vs IAF Command and Control Systems



## silent hawk

This thread has now become a comprehensive resource for all those who want to know about PAF and IAF Command and Control Systems. I thank all contributors. For ease of use I shall be giving links to the most interesting posts on the first page. I thank all contributors for the data provided.

Command and Control Systems are an essential element of any War Fighting Machinery.(If you have less time the essential elements are in bold)




> From Air Force Monthly
> 
> *India's air defence network is essentially divided into two parts - the ADGES and the Base Air Defence Zones (BADZ)*
> 
> Indian Air Defences: Sensor Network *The Indian ADGES* employs a three-tier detection network. While this system is currently in the process of a major modernisation programme, the basic structure of the network will remain unchanged.
> 
> *The first layer, rather surprisingly, consists of Mobile Observation Posts (MOPs) similar in concept to the British Observer Corps of World War Two.* These remain among the most reliable of the early-warning mechanisms available to the Indian Air Force. The MOPS consist of two-man teams equipped with an HF/VHF radio set and field glasses. The personnel in the MOP give the first warning of airborne intrusion, the general direction of the attack and, more often than not, the numbers and types of the attacking aircraft. The MOPS provided invaluable service during the 1971 IndiaPakistan war. The MOPS are scattered along the borders randomly, at intervals of between 40 and 72 miles (25 and 45km). They are assisted in this task by personnel from the Indian police and paramilitary forces who are given some training in aircraft identification. These agencies report to the Indian Air Defence network via a communications system using both HF/VHF radio sets and telephone lines. A more advanced communications system based on fibre optic cables and satellite communications would also assist the MOPS in reporting to the radar picket line.
> 
> *The radar picket line*, which lies about-93 miles (150km) behind the MOPs, consists of a number of radar clusters. These comprise three radar stations separated at a distance of the sum of their radii. The equipment issued to these clusters generally comprises one Sovietera ST-68/U and two P-18/-19 radars. These are then flanked by two P-12/-15 radars. The ST-68/U acts as the Control and Reporting Centre (CRC). This may have changed somewhat as the ST-68U, which was *plagued with nagging development problems*, was supposed to replace older Soviet-made equipment. The ST-68/U is known by NATO as the Tin Shield radar and has a maximum range of some 217 miles (350km). It is optimised for the detection of low-flying aircraft and cruise missiles employing electronic countermeasures (ECM). Moreover, India has been producing the French-designed TRS-2215D 3-D surveillance radar under licence for a number of years and has derived from that an indigenously built radar - PSM-33 Mk 2. This has probably supplanted most of the older Soviet-bloc equipment. The TRS-2215D and PSM-33 Mk.2 have surveillance ranges of up to 317 (510km) with a peak power output of 660-700kW operating in the E/F bands and possess a very significant ECCM capability. *The old P-12 and even the P-18/-19 families of radars are a different matter. While these systems have a respectable detection range, they are very much of an older vintage and have been severely compromised after their use in the Arab-Israeli wars and other conflicts*. Their replacement by the ST-68/U was *plagued by technical problems and the replacement of the older radars may not yet be complete*. A number of Air Defence Control Centres (ADCCs) are located behind the radar picket line. The radar picket line and the ADCC are separated by a layer of air defence weapons which are the first to engage the intruders.
> 
> *The backbone of the Indian Air Defence Ground Environment system is the huge THD-1955 3-D long-range surveillance radar* that was once in widespread use throughout NATO. This radar, originally of French design, has been licence-built in India for a number of years. This E/F-band radar, though somewhat elderly, still offers sterling performance characteristics and is capable of maximum detection ranges of up to 620 miles (1,000km), though the Indian Air Force usually limits its power to a 250 miles (400km) detection range. These form the core of the ADCCs. The THD-1955 has a peak operating power of up to 20MW, though its normal operating power is usually 2MW. *The radar has comprehensive ECM/ECCM capabilities and has no real detection altitude limitation. If the radar has one disadvantage, it is its sheer size.* The Indian Air Force has undertaken to upgrade these radars with digital signal processing and clutter removal techniques.
> 
> *The ADGES communication system is also being updated* by the digitalisation of the analogue links and back-up satellite and fibre-optic communications. The IAF uses extensive microwave communications systems and mobile digital troposcatter terminals.
> 
> *Like the ADGES, the BADZ consists of three layers*. The first of these are the mobile observation posts, followed by a mixed layer of weapons and their associated radars, along with a picket line of low-level radars. These are, in turn, supported by anti-aircraft artillery batteries. This network is controlled by a ST68U radar, supported by other radars such as the TRS-2215D and the PSM-33. Low-level detection gaps are filled by the Indian-made Indra-1 radar which has a range of 30 miles (50km). *The BADZ provides comprehensive and gapfree coverage over its assigned area of responsibility*. Some observers have likened the BADZ set-up to the defence pattern of a carrier battle group. Any aircraft attacking a vital military target, therefore, not only has to get past the ADGES, but also the far more formidable BADZ.





> From Air Force Monthly
> 
> Strategic Air Defences in Pakistan
> 
> *Pakistan's Air Defence Command was formed in 1975. It is based at Chaklala air force base near Rawalpindi and exercises control, surveillance and co-ordination over all Pakistani airspace*. The ADC HQ is based in bunkers 16 to 32ft (5 to 10m) below ground and has four rows of consoles with 20-25 men operating them. *All units - aircraft, air bases and AAA units - are represented on screens. In fact, the ADC HQ set-up is regarded as being one of the most modern in existence.*
> 
> *Subordinate to the ADC HQ are four Sector Operations Centres, which in turn control six Control & Reporting Centres (CRCs)*. The four sector headquarters are located at Quetta, Sargodha, Karachi and Peshawar. *As in the case of India, Pakistan has a comprehensive radar network which can also accept data from the civilian air traffic control radar*. The radar network was established from 1976 onwards as part of Project CRYSTAL which aimed to give Pakistan a modern air defence network. *Pakistan operates a bewildering variety of radars from varying sources*. The most modern units are six TPS-43G 3-D long range radars. These are supplemented by some older American, Chinese and British long-range radars. The TPS-43G is a large E-band system with a 278-mile (447km) range against highlevel targets and a 4MW peak power output, though normal power output is 6.7KW. These radars were acquired as the second-phase of Project CRYSTAL. Two installations operate the FPS-89/100 modified versions of the FPS-6/-20 heightfinding radars supplied under the US Military Assistance Program. These E/F band systems have a range of 217 miles (350km) and a peak power of 4.5MW. One of the initial FPS-6 radars was destroyed at Badin during the 1965 India-Pakistan war. Pakistan also operates a number of Chinese-made Type 514 radars at Skardu and Gilgit and three squadrons of British 1960s vintage Condor radars.
> 
> *As regards low-level radars, in 1979-80, as the first stage of Project CRYSTAL, Pakistan purchased 45 mobile pulse Doppler radars from Siemens of Germany. These systems are of the MPDR 45/E type and are controlled by six CRCs. These are extremely capable radars and significantly enhance Pakistan's ability to detect low-level Indian intruders.* However, since most of Pakistan's major targets are located so close to the Indian border, *there is very little time available for the defenders to react.* This problem will remain with Pakistan for the foreseeable future. The MPDR (Mobile Pulse Doppler Radar) 45/E radars are D-band systems with ranges of between 28 and 56 miles (45 and 90km). Two versions - with ranges of 28 and 37km (45 and 60km) - are fully mobile, while the 56-mile version is air transportable. In addition to the MPDR systems, Pakistan purchased a total of nine Plessey AR-1/15 radars in 1968-69. These comprised six static AR-is and three mobile AR-15s. The AR-1/15 family has a range of 93 miles (150km).



This is a fairly old article and I hope that posts in this thread would update the status of the Command and Control Systems of both Air Forces.

As per this article PAFs system seems to be more hierical and advanced than it's IAF counterpart. What are your views please?

Range of Current Indian SAM Systems
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/82343-paf-vs-iaf-command-control-systems.html#post1299429

Map of Chinese Airfields
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/82343-paf-vs-iaf-command-control-systems.html#post1300081

Types of jammers
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/82343-paf-vs-iaf-command-control-systems-2.html#post1300227

IAF AFNET
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/82343-paf-vs-iaf-command-control-systems-2.html#post1300729

PAF TPS-77
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/82343-paf-vs-iaf-command-control-systems-2.html#post1302211

IAF Satellite, Aerostat and Greenpine
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/82343-paf-vs-iaf-command-control-systems-2.html#post1302249

IAF Rajendra, Rohni and Thales Radars
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/82343-paf-vs-iaf-command-control-systems-3.html#post1302272

IAF Phalcon AEWC
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/82343-paf-vs-iaf-command-control-systems-3.html#post1302278

PAF MPDR
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/82343-paf-vs-iaf-command-control-systems-3.html#post1302446

IAF INDRA I and INDRA II 
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/82343-paf-vs-iaf-command-control-systems-4.html#post1302459

IAF Satellite Program
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/82343-paf-vs-iaf-command-control-systems-4.html#post1302639

Electronic Warfare and Radar Systems
Electronic Warfare & Radar Systems (Military Nuts)

PAF VERA
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/82343-paf-vs-iaf-command-control-systems-5.html#post1302714

PAF C4I System
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/82343-paf-vs-iaf-command-control-systems-5.html#post1303685

Pakistan Satellite Program
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/82343-paf-vs-iaf-command-control-systems-5.html#post1303788

More on PAF VERA
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/82343-paf-vs-iaf-command-control-systems-6.html#post1303798

IAF Master A
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/82343-paf-vs-iaf-command-control-systems-6.html#post1303878

IAF Vision 2020
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/82343-paf-vs-iaf-command-control-systems-6.html#post1303885

IAF 3D Central Acquisition Radar
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/82343-paf-vs-iaf-command-control-systems-6.html#post1303892

Indian Radar Systems
http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/52874-indian-radar-systems.html

IAF Command Structure
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/82343-paf-vs-iaf-command-control-systems-7.html#post1304118

Yet more on VERA
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/82343-paf-vs-iaf-command-control-systems-7.html#post1304354

Comparision of PAF and IAF Low Level Sensors
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/82343-paf-vs-iaf-command-control-systems-9.html#post1304531

IAF Ashlesha radar, Bharani-2 radar and Bharani-1 radar
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/82343-paf-vs-iaf-command-control-systems-9.html#post1304669

Comparision of PAF and IAF High level sensors
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/82343-paf-vs-iaf-command-control-systems-9.html#post1305712

IAF Rajendra
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/82343-paf-vs-iaf-command-control-systems-9.html#post1305730

PAF Sells C4I system to Bangladesh
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/82343-paf-vs-iaf-command-control-systems-10.html#post1306332

IAF Link 11 and IACCS Block Diagram
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/82343-paf-vs-iaf-command-control-systems-14.html#post1306743

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## rockstarIN

You love to see this vs threads right? anyway of it is informative, no probs.

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## jha

Yes..an old article with vintage facts..A lot of upgradation is going on with help of israel and Russia..Not everything is made available in public..
However for Teasers- Swordfish with 1500 Km. Range in 2011..followed by a radar of much longer detection range in 5-6 years which will cost a bomb to procure..

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## silent hawk

jha said:


> Yes..an old article with vintage facts..A lot of upgradation is going on with help of israel and Russia..Not everything is made available in public..
> However for Teasers- Swordfish with 1500 Km. Range in 2011..followed by a radar of much longer detection range in 5-6 years which will cost a bomb to procure..



Nice but what about Integration. As mentioned in the article PAF has an Air Defence Command where all aircrafts can be monitored and controlled. This means that the PAF Chief of Air Staff has the capability to centrally control the air war.

Does the Indian Air Chief also have such a system?


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## jha

silent hawk said:


> Nice but what about Integration. As mentioned in the article PAF has an Air Defence Command where all aircrafts can be monitored and controlled. This means that the PAF Chief of Air Staff has the capability to centrally control the air war.
> 
> Does the Indian Air Chief also have such a system?



Sorry..But cant provide any detail here..However keep one thing in mind we do not lag in any field especially with the kind of upgradation our armed forces are going .


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## rockstarIN

Forget about Radar ranges, here is the ranges of Indian current SAM systems.







And we are filling the gaps so quickly and shifting from point defense to missile shield defense for our airspace.

Rgds,

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## Capt.Popeye

silent hawk said:


> Nice but what about Integration. As mentioned in the article PAF has an Air Defence Command where all aircrafts can be monitored and controlled. This means that the PAF Chief of Air Staff has the capability to centrally control the air war.
> 
> Does the Indian Air Chief also have such a system?




Do you mean that the PAF Chief has to/is able to sit at a central console or keyboard and push the buttons to control the air war?
That is an interesting concept.

The IAF Chief does not have to do it, he attends to more important things. 
The IAF has five operational commands to command an area which is far larger than PAF has to deal with. They have their AD systems which are interlinked/integrated to each other. At the same time interconnected to the IA's AD systems as well as the CD organisation nation-wide. And there is a team of dedicated AD-tasked staff to carry that out.
Hope that helps answer your query.

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## Rajkumar

Thanks for this very informative post. I like this kinda post rather then india has 47% people under poverty line or pakistan is terror hub. 
this article is old but modernizations just started so its fairly gives the picture about status of both air forces. it seems pakistani command and control has more modern radars as compared to india. 
i would interested to know about e-jamming resistance of radars. what are the systems which are very prone to jamming and who has better jamming electronics. what is current ability of nato to jam these radars.


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## rockstarIN

^^ How will you Jam a ground based Radar?

In order to jam it, you need to come at least to the range of your system, which can be done thru fighter air crafts, which in turn could not carry jamming equipment of huge radars.

Regards,


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## Rain

rockstar said:


> Forget about Radar ranges, here is the ranges of Indian current SAM systems.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And we are filling the gaps so quickly and shifting from point defense to missile shield defense for our airspace.
> 
> Rgds,



This image can't be true! if it is true depiction of Indian Airdefense thn I am surprised to see almost not air defense/SAM systems along China border.
This also shows how much focused Indian Defense extabishment is on Pakistan irrespective of the rhetoric tht their defense is focused on China not Pakistan!

Regarding Radar Systems i think Pakistan needs to update it Radar systems with effective Long Range Radars--PAF should be able to see any jet/missile taking off from as far as Indore/Dehli/Mumbay.

Regarding SAMs I think if Pakistan has FT2000 or other long range SAM with atleast 8 systems will be enough for our needs.

Moreover ADC center only 10 meter deep is not safe!

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## rockstarIN

Rain said:


> This image can't be true! if it is true depiction of Indian Airdefense thn I am surprised to see almost not air defense/SAM systems along China border.
> This also shows how much focused Indian Defense extabishment is on Pakistan irrespective of the rhetoric tht their defense is focused on China not Pakistan!
> 
> Regarding Radar Systems i think Pakistan needs to update it Radar systems with effective Long Range Radars--PAF should be able to see any jet/missile taking off from as far as Indore/Dehli/Mumbay.
> 
> Regarding SAMs I think if Pakistan has FT2000 or other long range SAM with atleast 8 systems will be enough for our needs.
> 
> Moreover ADC center only 10 meter deep is not safe!



If you look at the map closely, you can see blue dots in our north east area, which is point defense systems, aimed to defend our key assets.

Moreover, unlike the public perception, China too has hardly any bases near our borders,(but now they are developing). their main bases are at far east.

That is the reason why we are inducting Akkash missile systems massively in order to fill the gaps in north east and to replace old Pachora systems with newer systems.

Rgds,


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## Capt.Popeye

Rain said:


> This image can't be true! if it is true depiction of Indian Airdefense thn I am surprised to see almost not air defense/SAM systems along China border.
> This also shows how much focused Indian Defense extabishment is on Pakistan irrespective of the rhetoric tht their defense is focused on China not Pakistan!
> 
> Regarding Radar Systems i think Pakistan needs to update it Radar systems with effective Long Range Radars--PAF should be able to see any jet/missile taking off from as far as Indore/Dehli/Mumbay.
> 
> Regarding SAMs I think if Pakistan has FT2000 or other long range SAM with atleast 8 systems will be enough for our needs.
> 
> Moreover ADC center only 10 meter deep is not safe!



No, it is not very correct. It does not reflect reality- esp the current picture.


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## deckingraj

Rain said:


> This image can't be true! if it is true depiction of Indian Airdefense thn I am surprised to see almost not air defense/SAM systems along China border.
> This also shows how much focused Indian Defense extabishment is on Pakistan irrespective of the rhetoric tht their defense is focused on China not Pakistan!
> 
> Regarding Radar Systems i think Pakistan needs to update it Radar systems with effective Long Range Radars--PAF should be able to see any jet/missile taking off from as far as Indore/Dehli/Mumbay.
> 
> Regarding SAMs I think if Pakistan has FT2000 or other long range SAM with atleast 8 systems will be enough for our needs.
> 
> Moreover ADC center only 10 meter deep is not safe!



Do keep in mind that we were very much Pakistan centric a decade ago...most of the assets were build on the western border. However now eastern border is given its due importance....Also due to the geography there are more openings on the western border as compared to eastern....


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## rockstarIN

Moreover, here the map Chinese air fields..nothing near Indian border
http://*****************/wa/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/chinese-airfields.gif

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## silent hawk

jha said:


> Sorry..But cant provide any detail here..However keep one thing in mind we do not lag in any field especially with the kind of upgradation our armed forces are going .



This is specifically why I have started this thread. In the PAF we have a preception that our automation system is superior. Time to find out the facts. Rockstar has already made some valuable contributions. Soon hopefully we shall know more.


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## silent hawk

Capt.Popeye said:


> Do you mean that the PAF Chief has to/is able to sit at a central console or keyboard and push the buttons to control the air war?
> That is an interesting concept.
> 
> The IAF Chief does not have to do it, he attends to more important things.
> The IAF has five operational commands to command an area which is far larger than PAF has to deal with. They have their AD systems which are interlinked/integrated to each other. At the same time interconnected to the IA's AD systems as well as the CD organisation nation-wide. And there is a team of dedicated AD-tasked staff to carry that out.
> Hope that helps answer your query.



PAF follows a concept of centralized control with decentralized execution.

The PAF chief is able to retain control because he has a real time picture of the battle area.

As far as commands are concerned the PAF for it's small size has four commands as compared to India's five. This is because we have very little depth and providing air defence against a potent threat such as IAF is very challenging. Needless to say all regional commanders also enjoy a complete real time air picture of thier areas of responsibilities

*The PAF operates in a Common Operating Environment which acts as a force multiplier*

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## silent hawk

Rajkumar said:


> Thanks for this very informative post. I like this kinda post rather then india has 47% people under poverty line or pakistan is terror hub.
> this article is old but modernizations just started so its fairly gives the picture about status of both air forces. it seems pakistani command and control has more modern radars as compared to india.
> i would interested to know about e-jamming resistance of radars. what are the systems which are very prone to jamming and who has better jamming electronics. what is current ability of nato to jam these radars.





> Pakistan operates a bewildering variety of radars from varying sources. The most modern units are six TPS-43G 3-D long range radars. These are supplemented by some older American, Chinese and British long-range radars. The TPS-43G is a large E-band system with a 278-mile (447km) range against highlevel targets and a 4MW peak power output, though normal power output is 6.7KW. These radars were acquired as the second-phase of Project CRYSTAL. Two installations operate the FPS-89/100 modified versions of the FPS-6/-20 heightfinding radars supplied under the US Military Assistance Program. These E/F band systems have a range of 217 miles (350km) and a peak power of 4.5MW.



As can be seen from the article PAF operates radars from different countries. *These radars gives the PAF Overlapped, Multiband Coverage in all height regimes, making jamming very difficult.*

Nevertheless older radars such as MPDR's have less Electronic Counter Counter Measures and hence are more prone to jamming. Newer inductions such as the TPS-77 on the other hand are almost impossible to jam

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## rockstarIN

silent hawk said:


> PAF follows a concept of centralized control with decentralized execution.
> 
> The PAF chief is able to retain control because he has a real time picture of the battle area.
> 
> As far as commands are concerned the PAF for it's small size has four commands as compared to India's five. This is because we have very little depth and providing air defence against a potent threat such as IAF is very challenging. Needless to say all regional commanders also enjoy a complete real time air picture of thier areas of responsibilities
> 
> *The PAF operates in a Common Operating Environment which acts as a force multiplier*




The above is now an old concept, nowadays there will be a joint stratgic command comprise of land, sea and air which will be co ordinating combained military movements.

In this area, Indian strategy evolves like keeping stand by satellites + launchers ready if the enemy shoot down our satellites.
(As told by DRDO chief in an interview when China showed the capability to shoot down the satellites)


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## rockstarIN

silent hawk said:


> As can be seen from the article PAF operates radars from different countries. *These radars gives the PAF Overlapped, Multiband Coverage in all height regimes, making jamming very difficult.*
> 
> Nevertheless older radars such as MPDR's have less Electronic Counter Counter Measures and hence are more prone to jamming. Newer inductions such as the TPS-77 on the other hand are almost impossible to jam



From wherever you buy Radars, you will get L,S,C,X,K band radars..


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## silent hawk

rockstar said:


> ^^ How will you Jam a ground based Radar?
> 
> In order to jam it, you need to come at least to the range of your system, which can be done thru fighter air crafts, which in turn could not carry jamming equipment of huge radars.
> 
> Regards,



A lot of power is not required to jam radars. Infact radar recievers are very sensitive and even small amounts of concentrated energy can disrupt thier performance. The radar transmits in 360 degrees the jammer does not.

There are primarily three types of jammers.

*Stand Off Jammers* These are high power jammers that jam the target radar from a distance. They are often installed on large platforms such as AEW aircrafts.

*Escort Jammers* Escort jammers are part of the raid package. Their task is to jam the radars for a short duration in so that it becomes difficult to detect the incomming raid. The jamming power is large enough to protect the raid package for the desired duration.

*Self Protection Jammers* These are used to protect the aircraft particularly against weapon control tracking radars.


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## silent hawk

rockstar said:


> The above is now an old concept, nowadays there will be a joint stratgic command comprise of land, sea and air which will be co ordinating combained military movements.
> 
> In this area, Indian strategy evolves like keeping stand by satellites + launchers ready if the enemy shoot down our satellites.
> (As told by DRDO chief in an interview when China showed the capability to shoot down the satellites)



Joint Operations is a concept that will still take a lot of time to mature. Especially in our region where there is a lot of branch loyalty. The Air Force must have an independent Automation system at the core level in order to be effective.

Common Operating Environment is not in my opinion an obsolete concept. The challenge is to have a common gui in a system made up of components of different origins. This must first be achieved at the Air Force level before it is taken to the joint services level


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## silent hawk

Rain said:


> This image can't be true! if it is true depiction of Indian Airdefense thn I am surprised to see almost not air defense/SAM systems along China border.
> This also shows how much focused Indian Defense extabishment is on Pakistan irrespective of the rhetoric tht their defense is focused on China not Pakistan!
> 
> *Regarding Radar Systems i think Pakistan needs to update it Radar systems with effective Long Range Radars--PAF should be able to see any jet/missile taking off from as far as Indore/Dehli/Mumbay.*
> 
> Regarding SAMs I think if Pakistan has FT2000 or other long range SAM with atleast 8 systems will be enough for our needs.
> 
> Moreover ADC center only 10 meter deep is not safe!



This has become possible after the induction of SAAB AEW aircrafts


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## silent hawk

rockstar said:


> From wherever you buy Radars, you will get L,S,C,X,K band radars..



Correct but if you have L,S,X and Ku band radars deployed in the same region then jamming becomes more difficult. That is what PAF has done.

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## silent hawk

Rain said:


> This image can't be true! if it is true depiction of Indian Airdefense thn I am surprised to see almost not air defense/SAM systems along China border.
> This also shows how much focused Indian Defense extabishment is on Pakistan irrespective of the rhetoric tht their defense is focused on China not Pakistan!
> 
> Regarding Radar Systems i think Pakistan needs to update it Radar systems with effective Long Range Radars--PAF should be able to see any jet/missile taking off from as far as Indore/Dehli/Mumbay.
> 
> Regarding SAMs I think if Pakistan has FT2000 or other long range SAM with atleast 8 systems will be enough for our needs.
> 
> *Moreover ADC center only 10 meter deep is not safe!*



This was in 1980, today the latest command and control centers are nuclear proof which also includes faraday cages for EMP protection


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## shrivatsa

IAF kick starts AFNET enabling network centric warfare

NEW DELHI: The IAF got a boost towards becoming a truly network centric air force with Defence Minister A K Antony launching Air Force Network (AFNET), a reliable and robust digital information grid that enables accurate and faster response to enemy threats. 

The modern, state-of-the-art AFNET is a fully secure communication network, providing IAF critical link among its command and control centre, sensors such as the Airborne Early Warning and Control Systems and shooters like the fighter jets and missile squadrons. 

With the launch of AFNET, IAF became the first among the three services to complete interlinking major installations throughout the country on a high bandwidth network. 

Describing the AFNET operationalisation as a "momentous occasion", Antony said the aim of network spectrum policy of the government was two-fold -- growth of teledensity and modernisation of the defence forces' communication systems. 

He said the network centric operations' key capabilities were three-fold -- adaptability, availability and inter-operability. 

Antony said he was waiting for the day when the Navy and the Army too would launch their networked communication systems thereby acquiring network centric warfare capabilities. 

The AFNET will now replace the IAF's old communication network set-up using the tropo-scatter technology of the 1950s and marks the successful clearance of one milestone for release of radio spectrum, a very valuable but finite resource. 

IAF Chief Air Chief Marshal P V Naik said the launch of AFNET was "definitely a historic moment for IAF" as it entered the digital information grid and a "giant stride" towards attaining network centric warfare capability and "an apt indicator" of that capability. 

He said the IAF had a compelling need to consistently strive for an information advantage enabled by a robust networking of decision makers, weapon systems and sensors. 

"We need to leverage the advantages of networks by translating the information advantage into a decisive fighting tool. AFNET is a potent force multiplier and critical for becoming a network centric aerospace force," he added. 

The IAF project is part of the overall mission to network all three services. The mission comes in the backdrop of an Information Technology Roadmap document of the Defence Ministry stipulating automation, simulated training and mandatory computer proficiency in the services. 

Telecommunications Minister A Raja, in his address, said robust communication was critical for synergy among forces and for success in future operations. 

He said spectrum was an essential component for growth of wireless and mobile telecommunication systems.

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## silent hawk

shrivatsa said:


> IAF kick starts AFNET enabling network centric warfare
> 
> NEW DELHI: The IAF got a boost towards becoming a truly network centric air force with Defence Minister A K Antony launching Air Force Network (AFNET), a reliable and robust digital information grid that enables accurate and faster response to enemy threats.
> 
> The modern, state-of-the-art AFNET is a fully secure communication network, providing IAF critical link among its command and control centre, sensors such as the Airborne Early Warning and Control Systems and shooters like the fighter jets and missile squadrons.
> 
> With the launch of AFNET, IAF became the first among the three services to complete interlinking major installations throughout the country on a high bandwidth network.
> 
> Describing the AFNET operationalisation as a "momentous occasion", Antony said the aim of network spectrum policy of the government was two-fold -- growth of teledensity and modernisation of the defence forces' communication systems.
> 
> He said the network centric operations' key capabilities were three-fold -- adaptability, availability and inter-operability.
> 
> *Antony said he was waiting for the day when the Navy and the Army too would launch their networked communication systems thereby acquiring network centric warfare capabilities. *
> 
> The AFNET will now replace the IAF's old communication network set-up using the tropo-scatter technology of the 1950s and marks the successful clearance of one milestone for release of radio spectrum, a very valuable but finite resource.
> 
> IAF Chief Air Chief Marshal P V Naik said the launch of AFNET was "definitely a historic moment for IAF" as it entered the digital information grid and a "giant stride" towards attaining network centric warfare capability and "an apt indicator" of that capability.
> 
> He said the IAF had a compelling need to consistently strive for an information advantage enabled by a robust networking of decision makers, weapon systems and sensors.
> 
> "We need to leverage the advantages of networks by translating the information advantage into a decisive fighting tool. AFNET is a potent force multiplier and critical for becoming a network centric aerospace force," he added.
> 
> The IAF project is part of the overall mission to network all three services. The mission comes in the backdrop of an Information Technology Roadmap document of the Defence Ministry stipulating automation, simulated training and mandatory computer proficiency in the services.
> 
> Telecommunications Minister A Raja, in his address, said robust communication was critical for synergy among forces and for success in future operations.
> 
> He said spectrum was an essential component for growth of wireless and mobile telecommunication systems.



The Air force is always the first in this domain due to very less reaction times. The quote below gives the status of Pakistan Army Automation in 2004 The PAF of course was much more advanced. 

The point is that India is still waiting for something which was available in Pakistan in 2004



> If there is one area of warefare, where Pakistan Army is making the most effort that is the arena C4I. Without going into details (a lot of them are confindential and hence my info on them is limited) we all know as a fact that the C4I directorate in GHQ is currently headed by a serving Lt. Gen. Till some years back it used to be commanded by a Brig. It is working extensively on implementing C4I doctrine. A comprehensive C4I doctrine was prepared and approved two years back. It calls for high level of automation in communications and control, as well as providing secure and redundant mode of communication for peacetime and war. *Networks as PASCOM (Pakistan Army Strategic Comm.), DEFCOM (Defence Comm.), PATCOM (Pakistan Army Tactical Comm.), SATCOM (Satellite Comm.) have all been but into place and are working*. Every company of the Pakistan army is connected coomunications wise whether in peace time or during operational deployment to its battalion and divisional headquarters which are inturn connected to the area headquarter.
> 
> The doctrine of Battlefield Management System is also set and these days it is put into practice. All the Tanks, Guns, etc are being supplied with GPS which are going to be connected with their tactical headquarters. Additionally, Tactical Radars of Army will also be connected to the radar network of PAF in order to provide low level activity report of enemy AF to PAF for help in CAS.
> Posted in a Defence Forum in 2004​

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## silent hawk

*TPS-77 PAF's Best Ground Based Sensor*​
The TPS-77 is PAF's latest induction. It is an extremely capable sensor which has been fully integrated with PAF's automation system






















Does any one else have any details of PAF or IAF sensors?

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## mehboobkz

According to the US policy framework, the sale of the AN/TPS-77 radars to Pakistan would not affect the basic military balance in the region. India is already in receipt of eight $100 million AN/TPQ-37 FIREFINDER counter battery artillery radars from the US. 

This is in addition to a deal of one billion dollars for the purchase of Phalcon radar systems from Israel, giving India strategic advantage and surveillance insights over large parts of Pakistan.

The sale of AN/TPQ FIREFINDER radar systems by the US is said to provide India an increase in counter-battery artillery capability consistent with India's force planning and defence strategy. 

The systems being acquired by Pakistan would not offset the regional military balance tilted heavily in favour of India as revealed by the military negotiations for radar systems by the two countries. 
DAWN.COM | Archive | Your Source of News on the World Wide Web

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## BS_Buster

silent hawk said:


> Does any one else have any details of PAF or IAF sensors?



IAF radar satellite, aerostat, long range active phased array radars. 

Radar satellite 










Aerostat






Green pine/ LRTR radar 

*Range: 600 kilometers *






IAF is getting new satellites

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## silent hawk

mehboobkz said:


> According to the US policy framework, the sale of the AN/TPS-77 radars to Pakistan would not affect the basic military balance in the region. India is already in receipt of eight $100 million AN/TPQ-37 FIREFINDER counter battery artillery radars from the US.
> 
> This is in addition to a deal of one billion dollars for the purchase of Phalcon radar systems from Israel, giving India strategic advantage and surveillance insights over large parts of Pakistan.
> 
> The sale of AN/TPQ FIREFINDER radar systems by the US is said to provide India an increase in counter-battery artillery capability consistent with India's force planning and defence strategy.
> 
> The systems being acquired by Pakistan would not offset the regional military balance tilted heavily in favour of India as revealed by the military negotiations for radar systems by the two countries.
> DAWN.COM | Archive | Your Source of News on the World Wide Web



How does India Integrate Sensors From different countries? At the Tactical Level are these sensors operated seperately ?


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## BS_Buster

Some of the IAF's new radars, commissioned recently

Rajendra passive phased array radar 






Rohini 3D radar 





Thales GM400 radar






DRDO is going to unveil a new missile defence radar with 1500 km range next year.

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## mehboobkz

With an Israeli Elta EL/M-2075 Phalcon Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar

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## mehboobkz

silent hawk said:


> How does India Integrate Sensors From different countries? At the Tactical Level are these sensors operated seperately ?




Yes they operate separately, very true.


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## Capt.Popeye

mehboobkz said:


> Yes they operate separately, very true.



The *information* is overlapped and integrated in the system through the different layers.


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## BS_Buster

silent hawk said:


> How does India Integrate Sensors From different countries? At the Tactical Level are these sensors operated seperately ?



IAF has integrated command centers at various levels. Like field, tactical, command to HQ levels. While secure Indian satellites are the backbone of this network. Bharat Electronics Lt developed Integrated Air Command and Control System for IAF which includes multi-sensor data fusion and various levels. It also gets feeds from Army and Navy resources. 

*IAF's Integrated Air Command and Control System
*

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## mehboobkz

BS_Buster said:


> Some of the IAF's new radars, commissioned recently
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DRDO is going to unveil a new missile defence radar with 1500 km range next year.




Its called swordfish!

The Swordfish LRTR currently has a range of 600 km (370 mi)-800 km (500 mi) km range and can spot objects as small as a cricket ball, which the DRDO plans to upgrade to 1,500 km by 2011


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## mehboobkz

> The information is overlapped and integrated in the system through the different layers.




Without command n control its not possible...whereby systems are integrated.


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## BS_Buster

mehboobkz said:


> Its called swordfish!
> 
> The Swordfish LRTR currently has a range of 600 km (370 mi)-800 km (500 mi) km range and can spot objects as small as a cricket ball, which the DRDO plans to upgrade to 1,500 km by 2011



This is according to news sources but this 1500 km radar is totally new ad required for next generation missile defence which aim to intercept ICBM missiles at an altitude of 250 km.


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## silent hawk

Thanks for all your replies. But I still require clarification on one aspect

Do you carry out Ground Controled Interception(GCI) from the Sensor or from ADCC?

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## silent hawk

BS_Buster said:


> IAF has integrated command centers at various levels. Like field, tactical, command to HQ levels. While secure Indian satellites are the backbone of this network. Bharat Electronics Lt developed Integrated Air Command and Control System for IAF which includes multi-sensor data fusion and various levels. It also gets feeds from Army and Navy resources.
> 
> *IAF's Integrated Air Command and Control System
> *



Does this architecture replace your ADGES and BADZ setup ?

Why are you showing an F-16 in the Operational Data Link?

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## mehboobkz

silent hawk said:


> Does this architecture replace your ADGES and BADZ setup ?




No!

They are integerated in India&#180;s new command n control.

All assets are tied up with net centric (Air) warfare platform (nerve center) under one roof.


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## BS_Buster

silent hawk said:


> Does this architecture replace your ADGES and BADZ setup ?



Yes. They are even integrating all the civilian radars under it to get complete picture of what going on through out the region. From the top left image of the presentation below you can see the region they cover from a center, 

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/media/34752-1/IMG_0946.JPG



> Why are you showing an F-16 in the Operational Data Link?



This is just a picture the company have taken from internet to make the presentation. 



> Thanks for all your replies. But I still require clarification on one aspect
> 
> Do you carry out Ground Controled Interception(GCI) from the Sensor or from ADCC?



I do not have detailed knowledge but I think ground controlled interception is there. They release very little data and images about the control and air defence centers. 

It is the first image of one the AFNET (Air force network) center got from Bharat Rakshak,

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## silent hawk

mehboobkz said:


> No!
> 
> They are integerated in India´s new command n control.



From what I know the Base Air Defence Zones have some form of automated command and control setups. Which of the centers shown in your picture is being used as C4I setup in BADZ ?

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## silent hawk

*PAFs MOBILE PULSE DOPPLER RADARS*




The Earths curvature means that after about 30 Km it is not possible to pick up low level aircrafts. 

To be able to detect low level Indian fighters and Helicopters PAF inducted these radars in 1980. Six to Eight Such Radars are deployed in a region to give low level coverage.

The system is a tactical level system and all voice and data is transferred in real time to a command and reporting center from where Ground Control Interceptions are carried out.


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## silent hawk

mehboobkz said:


> With an Israeli Elta EL/M-2075 Phalcon Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar



How is this system integrated with the ground network?


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## BS_Buster

silent hawk said:


> *PAFs MOBILE PULSE DOPPLER RADARS*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Earths curvature means that after about 30 Km it is not possible to pick up low level aircrafts.
> 
> To be able to detect low level Indian fighters and Helicopters PAF inducted these radars in 1980. Six to Eight Such Radars are deployed in a region to give low level coverage.
> 
> The system is a tactical level system and all voice and data is transferred in real time to a command and reporting center from where Ground Control Interceptions are carried out.



IAF also has low level radar developed by BEL called INDRA-1 and INDRA-2 (Indian Doppler Radar). It is upgraded rapidly.











INDRA-II

It is a variant of INDRA radar for ground controlled interception of targets. The radar uses pulse compression for detection of low flying aircraft in heavy ground clutter with high range resolution and ECCM capabilities. The radar has been produced by Bharat Electronics Limited and is used by Indian Air Force and Army. Seven INDRA-IIs have been ordered by the Indian Air Force.

[edit] Features

* Fully coherent system
* Frequency agility
* Pulse compression
* Advanced signal processing using MTD and CFAR Techniques
* Track while scan for 2-D tracking
* Full tracking capabilities for manoeuvering targets
* Multicolour PPI Raster Scan Display, presenting both MTI and Synthetic Video
* Integral IFF
* Ease of transportation and fast deployment

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## silent hawk

The Indian Posts are confirming my assumption that GCI in India is being carried out from the sensor itself.

This means that a fairly large amount of controllers shall be required. PAF has a seperate air defence branch, does IAF also have a seperate branch for controllers or are they part of some other branch.


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## mehboobkz

silent hawk said:


> How is this system integrated with the ground network?




By data-link the complete radar-image of the AWACS can be received in the ground station or the fighter jets in real time, once relayed.


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## silent hawk

mehboobkz said:


> By data-link the complete radar-image of the AWACS can be received in the ground station or the fighter jets in real time, once relayed.



Does this mean that the AWACS has to fly within the range of the fixed ground station. If so is this not a limiting factor?


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## BS_Buster

silent hawk said:


> Does this mean that the AWACS has to fly within the range of the fixed ground station. If so is this not a limiting factor?



No. the AWACS can operate any where. It has high speed satellite data link.

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## mehboobkz

silent hawk said:


> Does this mean that the AWACS has to fly within the range of the fixed ground station. If so is this not a limiting factor?




Data link is satellite connect - as is the mobile, from one island to other.


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## silent hawk

> India needs a dedicated military satellite for future defence purposes, Future wars would be fought through air and aerospace. So one day we will need that - Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal, S. Krishnaswamy



From what I can gather India is using foreign satellites to establish data links. In conflict you would be dependent on your service providers.


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## Ammyy

silent hawk said:


> From what I can gather India is using foreign satellites to establish data links. In conflict you would be dependent on your service providers.







> dedicated military satellite



We already have lot of satellite army chief referring to dedicated military satellite


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## silent hawk

DRDO said:


> We already have lot of satellite army chief referring to dedicated military satellite



If possible could you please post some thing on these satellites.

I believe it would be relevant to the thread.


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## Ammyy

silent hawk said:


> If possible could you please post some thing on these satellites.
> 
> I believe it would be relevant to the thread.



list is to vast just so check this
Indian Space Research Organisation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## Muradk

Member # BS_Buster

Friend because of the Earth's curvature what Air defense does is deploy Radars after every few miles and make each other overlap and the nest is spread out all over the country now Pakistan having TPS-77s their capabilities have increased.

(FROM WEB)TPS-77
Easy to transport and deploy, the Lockheed Martin AN/TPS-77 all-solid-state, 3-D long-range surveillance radar meets todays expeditionary forces needs for performance and reliability. It provides superior long-range detection, especially in weather and clutter, and 360-degree azimuth coverage.
Field commanders can count on accurate target data at ranges up to 250 nautical miles and elevations up to 100,000 feet from a radar that can operate 24 hours a day.

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## BS_Buster

Muradk said:


> Member # BS_Buster
> 
> Friend because of the Earth's curvature what Air defense does is deploy Radars after every few miles and make each other overlap and the nest is spread out all over the country now Pakistan having TPS-77s their capabilities have increased.
> 
> (FROM WEB)TPS-77
> Easy to transport and deploy, the Lockheed Martin AN/TPS-77 all-solid-state, 3-D long-range surveillance radar meets today&#8217;s expeditionary forces&#8217; needs for performance and reliability. It provides superior long-range detection, especially in weather and clutter, and 360-degree azimuth coverage.
> Field commanders can count on accurate target data at ranges up to 250 nautical miles and elevations up to 100,000 feet from a radar that can operate 24 hours a day.



Thank you sir but TPS-77 is not a active or passive phased array radars like most of the airforces going for. Modern phased array radars have many advantages.

One answer to earth's curvature, aerostat. it can detect low flying targets at long range.


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## mehboobkz

silent hawk said:


> If possible could you please post some thing on these satellites.
> 
> I believe it would be relevant to the thread.










Past Use of Satellite Imagery by Armed Forces

Indian Armed Forces have used imagery from ISRO civil satellites since the early 1990s.

Most civil satellites can be used for military purposes. Someone just has to analyze the data, which is a lot of grunt work. Most militaries use commercially available imagery from satellites. Western analysts have managed to keep track of Chinese missile and nuclear submarine deployment using Google Earth! 

TES
Imagery from the TES satellite launched in 2001 using PSLV-C3 has been used by the Indian Military. The satellite provides sub 1m resolution in the visual spectrum. 

RISAT-2
RISAT-2, launched in with an Israeli X-Band SAR has the most advanced surveillance capabilities amongst Indian satellites in orbit. The 300 kg can take 1 m resolution images at night and through clouds.

Dedicated Military Satellite Program

DRDO Chief Saraswat's announcement signals India's decision not to be coy about its military satellite program. The shift in policy probably stems from the knowledge that its military satellite program will not attract US sanctions against ISRO as would have happened in the past.

*We are looking at launching one or two satellites every year to fulfill the requirements of all three military formations, Saraswat said.*

*Once these satellites are operational, we will be able to see troop movements along the borders, he added. The key is high-resolution images with precision.*

The army, the navy and the air force have varied requirements, and it wont be appropriate to give the numbers.

"Data and commands can be sent through these satellites to cruise missiles.

The satellites will be developed and launched by ISRO based on requirements projected by the armed forces.

Communication-Centric Intelligence Satellite (CCI-Sat)
The satellite is being developed with a budget of Rs 100 crore by theDefense Electronics Research Laboratory (DLRL) under the Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO).

The existence of the project was revealed on Tuesday, February 2010 by DLRL director G. Bhoopathy.

*"We are in the process of designing and developing a spacecraft fitted with an intelligent sensor that will pick up conversations and communications across the borders,"* he told reporters in Bangalore before the start of the first international conference on electronic warfare (EWCI 2010).

*The satellite will feature a Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR) and be used for imaging and communication. It will be capable of detecting conversations and espionage activities in the region.*

*The satellite will orbit Earth at 500 km. and cover hostile regions in the area by passing on surveillance data to intelligence agencies,* G. Bhoopathy, DRDL director told AW&ST in November 2010.

The satellite will be launched in the lower earth orbit  about 500 km above the earth  on board the polar satellite launch vehicle (PSLV).

*The satellite, which will be operational by 2014, will also serve as a test bed for anti-satellite weapon development.*

*Navy Satellite*

*A dedicated satellite to facilitating Naval communication and network centric warfare will be launched into geostationary orbit by ISRO in 2010,* Indian Defense Minister, AK Antony announced during Senior Naval Officers Conference in New Delhi on October 22, 2009.

*The satellite will facilitate networking of IN warships, submarines and aircraft among themselves as well as with operational centres ashore through high-speed data-links, allowing Maritime threats to be detected and shared in real-time to ensure swift reactio*n.

*The multi-band satellite will weigh 2,330 kg. (5,137 lb.)*,

The satellite will provide coverage over a 600 x 1,000 nm area of the Indian Ocean Region (IOR), which India considers to be its primary area of responsibility in terms of maritime security.

The project cost is Rs 950 crore. 

*IAF Satellite*

The first dedicated IAF satellite is scheduled for launch in FY 2011-12, after the Navy satellite scheduled for launch in FY 2010-11.

The satellite was initially scheduled to be launched in July 2009, according to a PTI report on November 18, 2008. In early January 2009, the IAF Chief said the IAF satellite will be launched in 2010.

*According to IAF Chief Fali H. Major, the satellite will serve as the air force's eye in the skies. It will link up the six AWACS that the IAF is acquiring with each other as well as other ground and airbased radars.*

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## BS_Buster

^^^ According to news reports IAF getting satellite based early warning system to track missiles soon.


*Silent, any details or news on PAF sensors? *


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## desiman

Rain said:


> This image can't be true! if it is true depiction of Indian Airdefense thn I am surprised to see almost not air defense/SAM systems along China border.
> This also shows how much focused Indian Defense extabishment is on Pakistan irrespective of the rhetoric tht their defense is focused on China not Pakistan!
> 
> Regarding Radar Systems i think Pakistan needs to update it Radar systems with effective Long Range Radars--PAF should be able to see any jet/missile taking off from as far as Indore/Dehli/Mumbay.
> 
> Regarding SAMs I think if Pakistan has FT2000 or other long range SAM with atleast 8 systems will be enough for our needs.
> 
> Moreover ADC center only 10 meter deep is not safe!



China is not India's enemy as many here would like to believe, we enjoy great cross border trade and there has been a lot of positive growth between the two countries in the last decade or so. Both countries have no interest in war and so both dont place their major defenses on the border. Please check China's sam placements for a better idea.


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## silent hawk

BS_Buster said:


> ^^^ According to news reports IAF getting satellite based early warning system to track missiles soon.
> 
> 
> *Silent, any details or news on PAF sensors? *





> Posted by Haider
> 
> U.S. company now owns highly advanced radar systems
> 
> By FrantiÅ¡ek Bouc
> Staff Writer, The Prague Post
> November 15th, 2006
> 
> The most formidable Czech military defensive tool â&#8364;&#8221; the Vera surveillance radar, which is the only system that can detect the "invisible" U.S. Stealth bomber â&#8364;&#8221; is now owned by Americans.
> 
> U.S. surveillance and flight tracking developer Rannoch Corporation has taken over ERA, the Pardubice-based company that developed Vera.
> 
> The deal took place in late October, but the daily MladÃ¡ fronta Dnes reported it Nov. 11.
> 
> "The ERA facilities are truly world-class," said Rannoch President Dave Ellison in an official statement. "We realize the potential of the combined teams to offer the most comprehensive and technically advanced solutions."
> 
> Defense Ministry representatives and east Bohemian regional officials were unaware of the development.
> 
> ERA Vice Chairman Milan Bernard confirmed the transaction, adding that ERA's management first wanted to notify the company's shareholders. The terms of the deal were not disclosed, but Bernard said that they would be announced later this month.
> 
> Defense Ministry spokesman Andrej &#268;Ã*rtek said the takeover was "a strictly private matter," and the government would not interfere in it.
> 
> ERA's Multilateration Surveillance System (MSS) is the best-selling technology around the globe for tracking civilian airplanes, and also the most advanced and proven wide-range multi-altitude radar. The company's main asset, however, is the radar system Vera.
> 
> Traditional radar sends a signal that bounces off a target, letting the radar operators know that something is there. Vera uses "passive location," a unique way of identifying a target without sending out that signal. The technology allows the radar system to be unidentifiable and thus unjammable.
> 
> Vera can simultaneously monitor up to 200 aircraft, and it is able to precisely determine their distance and altitude.
> 
> The ERA company has received orders for Vera from many countries, including Pakistan, China, Malaysia and Egypt.
> 
> The U.S. government has repeatedly expressed concern about the Czech radar being sold to countries it deems unfriendly.
> 
> As a result, ERA had to give up a planned transaction with China in 2004, after the Czech Defense Ministry banned the deal. So far, Vera radar has been sold to the United States and Estonia, and leased to Pakistan.
> 
> Vera is expected to become a key tool in NATO's new air control system, according to Marshall Billingsley, NATO's investment department director.
> The Prague Post
> Last edited by HAIDER; 05-12-2007 at 01:59 AM.



PAF now posses this system. It is an amazing system which is able to decipher even the type of aircraft flying. This means that PAF shall know of the entire raid package, the position and type of escorts etc. With this technology the element of surprise has been totally eliminated

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## Muradk

This is a good website check it out.

Electronic Warfare & Radar Systems (Military Nuts)

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## maverick1977

Did Pakistan contract changed after US acquisition of Vera? If not, how long is the lease for. one thing baffles me, if the radar is so great, why Pakistan didnt buy it and just leased it? Cost of some terrible decision ?


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## Rafi

Silent Hawk can you post a bigger picture of your avatar, has to do with subject at hand.


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## silent hawk

*PAF's C4I SYSTEM*​


Rafi said:


> Silent Hawk can you post a bigger picture of your avatar, has to do with subject at hand.







This picture of an advanced C4I system first appeared on a PAF calender. The picture shows a multi tier fully operational command and control system with digitized Maps and Required Data probably such as ADA states, Weather etc.

Very little is known about PAF's C4I program. The systems are said to have been designed and developed indigenously by a Vision Defence System.

*Air Commodore Shahid Hamid Shigri* is the main person credited with taking PAFs C4I system into the 21st century.

Company details of Vision Defence Systems obtained from a defence forum are given below:- 



> From a defence forum
> 
> The PAF C3I system is created by Vision Defence Systems (part of Shaheen Foundation). I am just copy-pasting some stuff from their website (no longer online) that will answer most of questions concering PAF's new C3I and future plans.
> 
> Company Profile
> 
> Pakistan was among the first few nations in the region to introduce automation in its national air defense systems. Late in the 1970s, American Hughes automation system along with Siemens Low Level Air Control System (SILLACS) was inducted into Pakistan Air Force. During 1990s, it was realized that these systems would not remain compatible to the emerging challenges of air defense and air space management. PAF started to look for replacement of these aging systems but the exorbitant costs of acquiring C3I systems and embargoes by the western world prohibited such an acquisition. Such a milieu sparked the initiative of indigenization in defense technologies especially those related to C4ISR. To meet the tri-service requirements in the field of C3I, Vision Defense Systems started developing Air Defence Command & Control systems in year 2001.
> 
> 
> Company&#8217;s objective has been to develop an integrated Air Defence Environment that forms the framework for nationwide network centric C4ISR. This would integrate all the ground based and airborne sensors operated by Army, Navy, Air Force and Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) into a single network.
> 
> To grow from field-specific national leaders to regional and eventually global leaders in the fields of System integration, C4ISR solutions.
> 
> &#8226;To become the ultimate window for contemporary technological advancements and compatible upgrades in the Air Defence Environment.
> &#8226;To encompass the vital requirements for the current C4I systems and network centric warfare solutions prevailing in the region.
> &#8226;To develop an organizational culture where World-Class-Quality is simply bare minimum.
> 
> Accomplishments & Tasks
> 
> Phase I
> In the early 2001 Pakistan Air Force tasked Shaheen Foundation to create C3I system for the Air Defense network. Shaheen Foundation created a team of engineers, system analysts, software developers and technicians and by mid of year 2004 delivered a state-of-the-art C3I system to the PAF. This not only replaced the aging Hughes & Siemens systems but also enhanced the operational capability of PAF manifolds. The highly skilled team of professionals has been grouped under the banner of Vision Defence Systems as a subsidiary of Shaheen Foundation.
> 
> This multi-tier Command & Control System has Fixed & Mobile Mission Control Centers (MCC) those are linked with the Sensor network all along the borders. MCCs are linked upwards with 04 Sector Operational Centers (SOC) and the Air Defence Operational Command (ADOC). SOCs and ADOC has fully functional backup C&CCs. High level of security and redundancy is an integral part of system architecture.
> 
> 
> Phase II
> During the second phase of the project, Vision Defence Systems is currently integrating the newly inducted radars and AWACS platforms into the Air Defence Network of PAF. This is envisaged to conclude by year 2010. VDS is also into the integration of Low Level Army Air Defence System (LAADS), Civil Aviation Authority&#8217;s Medium to High Level radars and ARGOS-73 radars operated by Pakistan Navy into the national Air Defence Environment. This would provide redundancy & enhanced capability of air space management for all the operators.
> 
> 
> Phase III
> In the next phase of development, air and space based communication, surveillance & reconnaissance assets would be integrated into the Joint Services C4ISR network.
> 
> Products & Services
> 
> Vision Defence Systems, Shaheen Foundation is the sole company in the region that has successfully designed, developed and delivered an advanced C3I system of this scale that is fully operational with the PAF.
> 
> Optimally utilizing your existing resources like sensors & media, Vision Defence Systems can provide state-of-the-art Mil Standard C3I solution that would be fully capable to meet Malaysian Joint Services operational requirements. The system architecture would be secure & scalable. Integrating other vital elements, the system may be upgraded to C4ISR network.
> 
> Vision Defence Systems can provide turnkey solution based on your defined requirements. All systems would be backed by warranties and full after sale support. Computer Based Training (CBT) modules for technical & operational staff have been developed for hands on & web based training needs. Air Defense Simulation Systems (ADSS) exclusively developed by VDS can train the technical and operational team on day-to-day challenges faced while managing the C3I environment.
> 
> Vision Defense Systems, with a strong history of over six years of breakthroughs, today stands apart in the Fields of C4ISR, system integration, and all related solutions to make its systems most effectual, Cost Effective, upward/downward Compatible.
> 
> Command and Control Center
> 
> Computerizing the Manual SOCs
> Automation of Manual SOCs
> Replacement of old ADOC
> 
> Integration of Allied System
> CAAR (Civil Aviation Authority Radar) with SOC
> 
> Mission Control Centers (MCC)
> GUI development
> Data Communication Gateway
> Multi Radar Tracker
> Voice Communication System
> 
> Sensors Upgrade
> Receiver Section Upgrade
> Transmitter Upgrade
> Antenna Upgrade
> 
> 
> Mission Control Centres
> 
> &#8226;Communication Gateway
> &#8226;Control Systems
> &#9702;Central Information Server (CIS)
> &#9632;Recorder
> &#9632;Re-player
> &#9702;Voice Recording System (VRS)
> &#9632;Recorder
> &#9632;Re-player
> &#8226;Man Machine Interface Systems (MMI)
> &#8226;Multi Radar Tracker (MRT)
> &#9632;Correlation and Fusion
> &#9632;Single Radar Tracker (SRT)
> &#8226;Monitoring and Administrative Applications
> &#9632;Network
> &#9632;Applications
> &#9632;Data
> &#9632;Radars
> &#9632;Tracker
> &#9632;Consoles
> &#8226;MCC Consoles
> &#8226;Server Cabinets

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## Ammyy

silent hawk said:


> PAF now posses this system. It is an amazing system which is able to decipher even the type of aircraft flying. This means that PAF shall know of the entire raid package, the position and type of escorts etc. With this technology the element of surprise has been totally eliminated



*I think first you are talking about satellite for establish data links and now you put VERA passive sensor ???? 

Just show me what PAF using to establish data link ?????*


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## BS_Buster

silent hawk said:


> PAF now posses this system. It is an amazing system which is able to decipher even the type of aircraft flying. This means that PAF shall know of the entire raid package, the position and type of escorts etc. With this technology the element of surprise has been totally eliminated



man vera is a very old radar and out dated now. Russia developed much more powerful radar than vera. vera has very short range.


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## BS_Buster

silent hawk said:


> *PAF's C4I SYSTEM*
> 
> 
> 
> http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/2949/pic2lt.jpg
> 
> This picture of an advanced C4I system first appeared on a PAF calender. The picture shows a multi tier fully operational command and control system with digitized Maps and Required Data probably such as ADA states, Weather etc.
> 
> Very little is known about PAF's C4I program. The systems are said to have been designed and developed indigenously by a Vision Defence System.
> 
> *Air Commodore Shahid Hamid Shigri* is the main person credited with taking PAFs C4I system into the 21st century.
> 
> Company details of Vision Defence Systems obtained from a defence forum are given below:- ​




*Thank you. Which radars PAF integrated with this other than TPS-77? *​


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## rockstarIN

Self delete


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## paritosh

an airforce's C&C structure is not just about the number of radars and their coverage...it is also about the flow of information...
The IAF is modernizing in lieu with the IA's F-INSAS soldier program to become a competent network-centric organization...
We have at least three dedicated C&C statellites
Infosys and TCS have been outsourced with laying down communication structures and command centres for the IAF...


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## silent hawk

DRDO said:


> *I think first you are talking about satellite for establish data links and now you put VERA passive sensor ????
> 
> Just show me what PAF using to establish data link ?????*



Please see the link below. I have now put the information you want in bold.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/82343-paf-vs-iaf-command-control-systems-2.html#post1301041


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## silent hawk

BS_Buster said:


> man vera is a very old radar and out dated now. Russia developed much more powerful radar than vera. vera has very short range.



Vera is a passive sensor it has no power at all. Obviously you are firing in the dark.


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## silent hawk

BS_Buster said:


> *Thank you. Which radars PAF integrated with this other than TPS-77? *



All PAF radars are integrated with this system, each and every one.


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## Rafi

Pakistan with China has plans for an array of SAR equipped Satellites

After successful launching and operation of BADR series of experimental satellites (BADR-1 and BADR-B) in the 1990s and early 2000s, SUPARCO now plans to launch high resolution remote sensing satellite system (RSSS) to meet the national and international user requirements in the field of satellite imagery.

A feasibility and system definition study was concluded in January 2007 which recommended the launch of a constellation of Optical and Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR) Satellites to ensure that the domestic and international user requirements are competitively met. In this respect the RFP for RSSS consultancy services was launched in July 2007. Launch of RFP for the manufacturing of the satellite is planned in the third quarter of year 2008.

RSSS is planned to be a progressive and sustainable program. Initially, SUPARCO plans to launch an optical satellite with payload of 2.5 meter PAN in 700 km sun-synchronous orbit by the end of year 2011, which will be followed by a series of optical and SAR satellites in future. Necessary infrastructure for ground control and image reception and processing is also planned to be setup.

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## Rafi

By the end of 2011, Pakistan plans to replace PAKSAT-1 with a new communication satellite PAKSAT-1R which will be manufactured exclusively for Pakistan. The satellite will support all conventional and modern Fixed Satellite Service (FSS) applications. The satellite will have a total of up to 30 transponders: 18 in Ku-band and 12 in C-band. To ensure high degree of reliability / availability of the system, two (02) fully redundant Satellite Ground Control Stations (SGCS) would be established in Karachi and Lahore, one to act as the Main and the other as Backup respectively.

This will contribute to our Armed Forces SATCOM abilities

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## BS_Buster

silent hawk said:


> Vera is a passive sensor it has no power at all. Obviously you are firing in the dark.



No offence buddy but its range is very small. not not an advanced radar. russia has some many such radars. 

vera








> PAF now posses this system. It is an amazing system which is able to decipher even the type of aircraft flying. This means that PAF shall know of the entire raid package, the position and type of escorts etc. With this technology the element of surprise has been totally eliminated



no radar in the world has such capabilities. 

Want to know about PAF's long range radars.


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## Rafi

*VERA passive sensor*

Mode of operation

The deployed system typically comprises a central site (containing the signal processing equipment and an ESM receiver) and two or three side sites containing only an ESM receiver. The side sites relay the signals received to the central site over a point-to-point microwave link. The central site uses the known propagation delay from the side sites to estimate the TDOA of the pulses at each site. The TDOA of a pulse between one side site and the central site locates the target on a hyperboloid. A second side site provides a second TDOA and hence a second hyperboloid. The intersection of these two hyperboloids places the target on a line, providing a 2D measurement of the target's location (no height). A third side-site provides a third hyperboloid, which, when intersected with the line provided by the other two side sites, provides a full 3D location of the target. This process is known as multilateration. The height of a target with an SSR Mode C or Mode S transponder can also be provided by decoding the Mode C or Mode S response directly, which is the normal mode of operation for the civilian VERA-AP system.

System accuracy

System accuracy is typically better than a microwave surveillance radar, and is a function of the deployment geometry, the inherent timing accuracy of the central site, the bandwidth of the pulse being detected and the signal-to-noise ratio. Wider separations of the side sites from the central site provide better accuracies &#8211; but at the expense of a reduced area of common coverage. Typically side sites are deployed 15-40 km from the central site, providing a reasonable compromise of coverage and accuracy.
*The system is generally line-of-sight limited, with a nominal range of 450 km, the normal radio horizon. Detection of targets is within a sector of approximately 120 degrees, although IFF and SSR targets are detected using a dedicated omnidirectional antenna, and hence may be seen over 360 degrees. Up to 200 targets can be automatically tracked simultaneously, with an output rate adjustable from 1 to 5 seconds.*

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## silent hawk

BS_Buster said:


> No offence buddy but its range is very small. not not an advanced radar. russia has some many such radars.
> 
> vera
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> no radar in the world has such capabilities.
> 
> Want to know about PAF's long range radars.



In due course of time it shall be established that I do not give wrong information. The Vera gives the PAF more that 300+ Km transfontier coverage into India. Its capability to identify targets as explained by Rafi is very real.


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## Manticore

The Pakistan Air Force begun its Air Defence modernization quite early with the procurement of six *AN/TPS-77* land based three-dimensional tactical mobile radar systems from the U.S.

This was reinforced with another six *YLC-2 3D long-range and ten YLC-6 2D low altitude radar systems* from China;

PAF is in the process of inducting these systems. Air Weapons Complex is on the forefront of the Pakistan Military's C4I program.

The PAF is evaluating the Czech *Vera *passive-radar system, and will decide to purchase it or not soon. The PAF's air defence will join the Pakistan Military's joint Hi-Medium Air Defence (HiMAD) and Low-Medium Air Defence (LoMAD).

http://www.pakistanmilitary.110mb.com/fpfpaf.htm


*YLC-2 *long-range 3-D phased-array surveillance system and previously unknown YLC-6 low-level system. Six of 10 YLC-6 radars on order have so far been delivered and Pakistan is also gaining six US-made AN/TPS-77 tactical mobile radars for medium-level application.
*YLC-2V*
http://mil.news.sina.com.cn/p/2008-04-02/0929493060.html

During the 5th China International Electronic Exhibition (CIDEX) held in Beijing in April 2006, 14th Institute of China Electronic Technology Corporation (CETC) revealed its *YLC-20 *two-station passive surveillance radar system, which appears to be similar to the VERA-E. It is not known whether the YLC-20 has any connection to the VERA-E technology.

*
Green Pine*
The Arrow Weapon System features a state-of-the-art EL/M2080 L-band radar, Green Pine, based on the decades of experience in developing technological solutions for early warning and fire control defense systems.

The Elta Electronic Industries subsidiary of IAI Electronic Group developed the Green Pine early warning and fire control radar for the Arrow system. The radar carries the designation EL/M-2090 and includes the trailer mounted radar and antenna array, the power generator, a cooling system and a radar control centre.

Green Pine is an electronically scanned, solid state, phased array radar operating at L-band in the range 500MHz to 1,000MHz, and was developed from the Elta Music phased array radar. The radar operates in search, detection, tracking and missile guidance modes simultaneously.

The radar can detect targets at ranges up to about 500km and is able to track targets up to speeds over 3,000m/s. The radar illuminates the target and guides the Arrow missile to within 4m of the target.

The radar has the following features:

Phased array L-band radar
Dual mode operation - early warning and fire control
Long range acquisition capability - several hundred kilometers
Simultaneous tracking of dozens of Tactical Ballistic Missiles (TBM)
Clear discrimination between TBMs, aircraft and other missiles
ECCM capability
Transportability 


He said China began marketing a *Kolchuga derivative* at the 2005 IDEX International Defence Exhibition in Abu Dhabi, in the United Arab Emirates.
http://www.strategycenter.net/imgLib/20050307_08PassiveDetection.JPG

*
older radars--*

PADS-77
American origin TPS-43G 
German MPDR-45, 60 and 90 radars linked through the command and control centres to provided low level and high level coverage along the entire length of the country.
SLC-2 is an Artillery Locating Radar.
Hughes AN/TPQ-36 mortar locating radar
Hughes AN/TPQ-37 artillery locating radar
Thomson-CSF RASIT-E

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## Rafi

We have also purchased Italian SPADA, and are currently in negotiations to purchase a number of long range Chinese SAM's with ToT.


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## Manticore

IMAGE0004.JPG (image)

IMAGE0005.JPG (image)

IMAGE0001.JPG (image)

IMAGE0002.JPG (image)

IMAGE0003.JPG (image)

some pics


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## BS_Buster

Is not the radar too small for 450 km range? So Pakistan has only TPS-77 and Vera both cannot be used as fire control radar. 

Some Russian long range radars similar to Vera,


















But all these are out dated by modern long range active phased array radars,


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## BS_Buster

MASTER-A

Range 370 Km


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## Manticore

BS_Buster said:


> Is not the radar too small for 450 km range? So Pakistan has only TPS-77 and Vera both cannot be used as fire control radar.
> /QUOTE]
> 
> ive found some more long range radars used by pak [posted above]-- there might be more, im no professional


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## Laughing Buddha

As the VISION-2020 suggest India as a Nuclear power and IAF as a Nuclear force. India will have to acquire the capability of launching these weapons thus the delivery system for the Nuclear arsenals and to defend them. For this IAF would have a major role to play as via-air dropping is the easiest and the most common method used in wars. 

Currently IAF is under development with first to acquire the force multipliers and setting up of a Nuclear Command And Post. If we take a look at the IAF's fleet of year 2020, the list would as follows-


(*A) Frontline Fighters*

1) (FGFA) 
2) (MRCA)
3) Su-30 MKI
4) MCA (Medium Combat Aircraft) (Fighter/Bomber/Recon)
5) LCA (Light Combat Aircraft) KH-2001 
6) Mig-29K (The non- carrier version)
7) Mig-27
8) Mig-21- (Fighter)
9) Jaguar (Fighter)
10) Mig-23 (Fighter)


*(B) Long Range bombers and Recon aircrafts*


1) MCA (Medium Combat Aircraft) (Fighter/Bomber/Recon)
2) Tu-22M3 Backfire (Bomber/Recon)
3) Mig-25 Foxbat (Recon)
4) Mirage-2000 (Bomber)
5) Mig-23 (Bomber)
6) Jaguar (Recon)
7) AVATAR (Solid Fueled Space Based) (Recon)
8) Mig-21-93 (Recon)
9) Su-30 MKI (Recon/Bomber)
10) (MRCA)


*(C) Light/Heavy/Executive Transports*



1) IL-76MD Candid B (Heavy Transporter)
2) IL-214 (Light Transport)
3) ATR (Light transport and Executive)
4) Dornier 228 (Light transport/Executive)
5) Boeing 737-300 (Executive)
6) Lockheed Martin C-130J Super Hercules
7) Boeing C-17 Globemaster III


*(D) Force Multipliers*


1) A-50 Phalcon AEW&C (A-50 Mainstay with a Israeli Phalcon radar system)
2) EMB 145 AEW&C (Airborne Early Warning & Control) jets
3) Boeing E-3 Sentry
4) IL-78 Air to ait refueling tanker
5) Boeing 737-300 Air to ait refueling tanker


*(E) Combat Helicopters*


1) Mi-24/25/35 Hind (Attack/Transport Version)
2) ALAH (Adavance light attack helicopter) 
3) ALH (Attack Version)
4) LAH Lancer (Light Attack Helicopter) 
5) ALH (Advance Light Helicopter) (Attack Version)
6) Chetak (Attack Version)
7) Mi-8/17 (Attack Version)


*(F) Executive/Heavy/Light Transport Helicopters*

1) Mi-26 (The Largest Helo In the world)
2) Mi-8/17 (Transport Version)
3) Mi-24/25/35 (Transport Version)
4) ALH (Advance Light Helicopter) (Transport Version)
5) Chetak/Cheetah (Transport Version)
6) Dauphin
7) LOH Light Observation Helicopter (Transport)


*(G) Observation/Recon Helicopter*


1) LOH (light Observation Helicopter) (Recon)
2) Mi-24/25/35 (Recon)
3) Mi-8/17 (Recon)
4) Chetak-Cheetah (Recon)
5) ALH (Advance Light Helicopter) (Recon)


*(H) Combat/non-combat capable trainers*



1) HJT-36 (Advance Sub/Super sonic) (Combat Capable)
2) AJT Hawk (Advance Sub/Super sonic) (Combat Capable)
3) HJT-16 Kiran (Sub-sonic)
4) Iskara (Sub-Sonic)
5) Mg-21-93UB Trainer (Sub-Super Sonic) (Combat Capable)
6) LCA KH-2001 (Trainer) (Advance Sub-Super Sonic) (Combat Capable)
7) HPT-32 (Transport Trainer) 
8) Dornier 228 (Transport trainer)


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## BS_Buster

3D CAR radar


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## BS_Buster

ANTIBODY said:


> BS_Buster said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is not the radar too small for 450 km range? So Pakistan has only TPS-77 and Vera both cannot be used as fire control radar.
> /QUOTE]
> 
> ive found some more long range radars used by pak [posted above]-- there might be more, im no professional
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i am not a professional but searching the web and posting staffs!
Click to expand...


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## BS_Buster

i do not know which radars are these but indian, 











BLR radar


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## BS_Buster

Some new type of radar?


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## BS_Buster

Barak-8 MRSAM long range radar for IAF


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## BS_Buster

some radar developed by drdo similar to vera, 

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_44d3OT-xI3U/SagPDBDQbCI/AAAAAAAAAog/n2E03ydZ6-0/s1600-h/IMAGE0038.JPG


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## silent hawk

BS_Buster said:


> ANTIBODY said:
> 
> 
> 
> i am not a professional but searching the web and posting staffs!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I appreciate your enthusiasm and patriotism. It was nice of you to admit that you are not a professional.
> 
> C4I systems are highly classified and getting reliable data on them is very difficult. However for true comparision accurate data is essential.
> 
> I would request people posting in this thread to be honest like BS_Buster and Antibody and let everyone know in case they are posting data about which they are not sure.
> 
> This is my first thread on this forum and I must say that I am very encouraged by the response.
Click to expand...


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## Ammyy

*Very useful info about Indian radar systems *

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/52874-indian-radar-systems.html

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## silent hawk

*IAF COMMAND STRUCTURE​*
This data has been taken from Wikipedia it is clear that most of the commands are pitched against the eastern side.



> Commands and structure
> 
> The Indian Air Force is divided into five operational commands. Each Command is headed by an Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief with the rank of Air Marshal. The purpose of an operational command is to conduct military operations using aircraft within its area of responsibility, whereas the responsibility of functional commands is to maintain combat readiness.
> 
> Operational Commands
> Central Air Command (CAC), headquartered at Allahabad, Uttar Pradesh
> Eastern Air Command (EAC), headquartered at Shillong, Meghalaya
> Southern Air Command (SAC), headquartered at Thiruvananthapuram, Kerala
> South Western Air Command (SWAC), headquartered at Gandhinagar, Gujarat
> Western Air Command (WAC), headquartered at Subroto Park, New Delhi
> 
> 
> Bases
> The IAF operates over sixty air bases, with more being built or planned. *Western Air Command is the largest Air Command. It operates sixteen air bases from Punjab to Uttar Pradesh*. Eastern Air Command operates fifteen Air bases in Eastern and North-eastern India. *Central Air Command operates seven Air Bases in Madhya Pradesh and surrounding states of central India.* Southern Air Command, a strategically important Air command, in line with India's latest doctrine of protecting the vital shipping routes. It operates nine Air bases in Southern India and two in the Andaman and Nicobar Islands. *South Western Air Command is the front line of defence against Pakistan, this important Command operates twelve air bases in Gujarat, Maharashtra and Rajasthan*. India also operates the Farkhor Air Base in Tajikistan.


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## dbc

silent hawk said:


> In due course of time it shall be established that I do not give wrong information. The Vera gives the PAF more that 300+ Km transfontier coverage into India. Its capability to identify targets as explained by Rafi is very real.



You just did..

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## silent hawk

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> You just did..



Could you validate your acusation? If you have Info please share. This has been a pretty informative thread so far. If you want to troll please do so elsewhere.


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## dbc

silent hawk said:


> Could you validate your acusation? If you have Info please share. This has been a pretty informative thread so far. If you want to troll please do so elsewhere.





silent hawk said:


> In due course of time it shall be established that I do not give wrong information. *The Vera gives the PAF more that 300+ Km transfontier coverage into India.* Its capability to identify targets as explained by Rafi is very real.



This should be fun, can you prove "The Vera gives the PAF more that 300+ Km transfontier coverage into India" ?

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## Ammyy

silent hawk said:


> Could you validate your acusation? If you have Info please share. This has been a pretty informative thread so far. If you want to troll please do so elsewhere.



No its not 

You just posting your stuff in big size(looks weird) not comparing them with Indian systems 
Buddy just read the title again


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## silent hawk

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> This should be fun, can you prove "The Vera gives the PAF more that 300+ Km transfontier coverage into India" ?



I will not dignify such a post with a proper response. Your post proves you are a troll. Please have fun somewhere else. If you continue to troll in this thread I shall have no other option but to report you to the mods.

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## silent hawk

DRDO said:


> No its not
> 
> You just posting your stuff in big size(looks weird) not comparing them with Indian systems
> Buddy just read the title again



I started the thread I know the title. Before we can compare we need data that is what we are doing.


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## Rafi

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> This should be fun, can you prove "The Vera gives the PAF more that 300+ Km transfontier coverage into India" ?



Why ashamed of the indian flag, hiding behind the French and US flag is sad, come on india is not that bad is it.

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## dbc

silent hawk said:


> I will not dignify such a post with a proper response. Your post proves you are a troll. Please have fun somewhere else. If you continue to troll in this thread I shall have no other option but to report you to the mods.



Report away...

Once again my question to you is simple, can you prove "The Vera gives the PAF more that 300+ Km transfontier coverage into India" ?


----------



## Ammyy

silent hawk said:


> I started the thread I know the title. Before we can compare we need data that is what we are doing.



Then why you made this vs thread


----------



## Rafi

VERA passive sensor

Mode of operation

The deployed system typically comprises a central site (containing the signal processing equipment and an ESM receiver) and two or three side sites containing only an ESM receiver. The side sites relay the signals received to the central site over a point-to-point microwave link. The central site uses the known propagation delay from the side sites to estimate the TDOA of the pulses at each site. The TDOA of a pulse between one side site and the central site locates the target on a hyperboloid. A second side site provides a second TDOA and hence a second hyperboloid. The intersection of these two hyperboloids places the target on a line, providing a 2D measurement of the target's location (no height). A third side-site provides a third hyperboloid, which, when intersected with the line provided by the other two side sites, provides a full 3D location of the target. This process is known as multilateration. The height of a target with an SSR Mode C or Mode S transponder can also be provided by decoding the Mode C or Mode S response directly, which is the normal mode of operation for the civilian VERA-AP system.

System accuracy

System accuracy is typically better than a microwave surveillance radar, and is a function of the deployment geometry, the inherent timing accuracy of the central site, the bandwidth of the pulse being detected and the signal-to-noise ratio. Wider separations of the side sites from the central site provide better accuracies &#8211; but at the expense of a reduced area of common coverage. Typically side sites are deployed 15-40 km from the central site, providing a reasonable compromise of coverage and accuracy.
*The system is generally line-of-sight limited, with a nominal range of 450 km*, the normal radio horizon. Detection of targets is within a sector of approximately 120 degrees, although IFF and SSR targets are detected using a dedicated omnidirectional antenna, and hence may be seen over 360 degrees. *Up to 200 targets can be automatically tracked simultaneously, with an output rate adjustable from 1 to 5 seconds.*

There you go troll


----------



## notorious_eagle

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> This should be fun, can you prove "The Vera gives the PAF more that 300+ Km transfontier coverage into India" ?



Not sure whether it can provide 300km trans frontier coverage into India, but never the less a potent system and a great complement to our existing radar coverage which is exceptional. Heres some info:

*VERA S/M Passive Surveillance System*
The VERA S/M is a product of the ERA Inc. of Pardubice in the Czech Republic. The system, as an independent source of information on air situation, can meet tasks of a monitoring and a back-up system for radar systems of the Air Traffic Control Centre of the Czech Republic.

The prototype of the VERA system has been first installed at the elevation of about 1000 metres and from 1995 it has been successfully tested in round-the-clock and permanent operation by a group of experts from the Air Force Passive Systems Centre and from Air Defence Command of the Army of the Czech Republic. It has used the improved working method first introduced in its predecessors (e.g. TAMARA or TACAN surveillance systems).


The manufacturer offers the system also in the following modifications: VERA &#8211; P3D, VERA ASCS, VERA - AP, VERA - ADSB and VERA &#8211; HME and VERA &#8211; E, and S/M, used predominantly by the military.

*The testing has proven that the system has an operation range of 400 to 500 kilometres in an angle higher than 120 degrees. The software presently used is capable of automatic and simultaneous tracking of up to 300 aircraft/targets at the real time.*

The crew is a single operator, plus an officer.

*The PSS VERA is a useful complement and a back-up of existing active radars of air traffic control centres, without ambition to replace them.*

VERA S/M Passive Surveillance System | Ministry of Defence

Also check out this website too, very informative post by the member. 

VERA - Czech system detecting stealth aircrafts [Archive] - Military Photos



silent hawk said:


> I will not dignify such a post with a proper response. Your post proves you are a troll. Please have fun somewhere else. If you continue to troll in this thread I shall have no other option but to report you to the mods.



Dude DOB is no troll, she is a very highly respected member on this board and her knowledge in matters of Military Aviation far exceeds our. Show some respect, instead of posting a reply like that you should have answered the question.

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## deckingraj

silent hawk said:


> I will not dignify such a post with a proper response. Your post proves you are a troll. Please have fun somewhere else. If you continue to troll in this thread I shall have no other option but to report you to the mods.



I will not call her a troll....I am not sure since when you are on PDF but she is one of those posters who cannot be termed as troll...If she is asking something better provide her your source, she might tell something worth....

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## Capt.Popeye

silent hawk said:


> I started the thread I know the title. Before we can compare we need data that is what we are doing.



Hi Hawk,
You did start the thread on an interesting subject. And info that is available can be discussed. Having said that, the info about the range of the *Vera* system seems to be in the air for me. 
i for one; personally, would greatly appreciate an explanation of that bit since it falls outside the scope of my knowledge- inspite of trying to find out.

BTW; a small suggestion, you will do alright using a smaller font.
Thanks for your attention.


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## dbc

notorious_eagle said:


> Not sure whether it can provide 300km trans frontier coverage into India, but never the less a potent system and a great complement to our existing radar coverage which is exceptional. Heres some info:
> 
> *VERA S/M Passive Surveillance System*
> The VERA S/M is a product of the ERA Inc. of Pardubice in the Czech Republic. The system, as an independent source of information on air situation, can meet tasks of a monitoring and a back-up system for radar systems of the Air Traffic Control Centre of the Czech Republic.
> 
> The prototype of the VERA system has been first installed at the elevation of about 1000 metres and from 1995 it has been successfully tested in round-the-clock and permanent operation by a group of experts from the Air Force Passive Systems Centre and from Air Defence Command of the Army of the Czech Republic. It has used the improved working method first introduced in its predecessors (e.g. TAMARA or TACAN surveillance systems).
> 
> 
> The manufacturer offers the system also in the following modifications: VERA  P3D, VERA ASCS, VERA - AP, VERA - ADSB and VERA  HME and VERA  E, and S/M, used predominantly by the military.
> 
> *The testing has proven that the system has an operation range of 400 to 500 kilometres in an angle higher than 120 degrees. The software presently used is capable of automatic and simultaneous tracking of up to 300 aircraft/targets at the real time.*
> 
> The crew is a single operator, plus an officer.
> 
> *The PSS VERA is a useful complement and a back-up of existing active radars of air traffic control centres, without ambition to replace them.*
> 
> VERA S/M Passive Surveillance System | Ministry of Defence
> 
> Also check out this website too, very informative post by the member.
> 
> VERA - Czech system detecting stealth aircrafts [Archive] - Military Photos
> 
> 
> 
> Dude DOB is no troll, she is a very highly respected member on this board and her knowledge in matters of Military Aviation far exceeds our. Show some respect, instead of posting a reply like that you should have answered the question.



Thanks notorious_eagle, a system like VERA works on triangulation principle.Triangulation is a process by which the location of a transmitter can be determined by measuring either the radial distance, or the direction, of the received signal from two or three different points. So unless, PAF has VERA receivers on Indian soil or capability unknown to us the claim that Vera gives "the PAF more that 300+ Km transfontier coverage into India" is hard to believe.

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## humza_313

rockstar said:


> You love to see this vs threads right? anyway of it is informative, no probs.



yeah...! dude.. its been 60 years in this legendary sentence "pak vs ind" so i think we will continue it..! love comparing the 2 countries..!


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## humza_313

well after reading books of both pak and indian authors.. one thing is for sure.. pak always had air superiority over india..! even though the land forces were of quite a difference..!


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## rockstarIN

humza_313 said:


> yeah...! dude.. its been 60 years in this legendary sentence "pak vs ind" so i think we will continue it..! love comparing the 2 countries..!



So far 'comparing' is fine. wars are ugly affairs


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## India Rising

humza_313 said:


> well after reading books of both pak and indian authors.. one thing is for sure.. pak always had air superiority over india..! even though the land forces were of quite a difference..!


sorry, off topic but i have to do it man !!!


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## rockstarIN

humza_313 said:


> well after reading books of both pak and indian authors.. one thing is for sure.. pak always had air superiority over india..! even though the land forces were of quite a difference..!



Its just opposite

and quite situational too


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## silent hawk

I post in a larger font because I can read it more easily. Anyhow if it seems wierd I will shift back.

The Vera as explained in many posts is a passive sensor. It not only gives the position of the aircraft but also uses an Elint (Electronic Intelligence) System to analyse any electromagnetic transmission of the target. Bases on these emissions it can identify the type of aircraft. It hence identifies the target through its electromagnetic signature.

This system was tested out in HighMark 2010. The side allowed to use Vera had a significant advantage. The entire raid package can be deciphered. Knowing the aircraft type is a huge tactical advantage.

If we send an aircraft to intercept an Indian Intruder it does not know whether the incomming aircraft is a F-16 or a F-7 PG. Whatever India sends we know.

So if a Mig 29 is comming in we know the AI cone and position our interceptor acordingly. We pitch our F-7PGs against IAF Bisons and commit our block 52 against SU-30.

Do you people really think I am a Captain?


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## mehboobkz

> Do you people really think I am a Captain?



Only if you tell me where is the button for ejection seat located!


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## rockstarIN

> silent hawk said:
> 
> 
> 
> I post in a larger font because I can read it more easily. Anyhow if it seems wierd I will shift back.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It looks more neat
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If we send an aircraft to intercept an Indian Intruder it does not know whether the incomming aircraft is a F-16 or a F-7 PG. Whatever India sends we know.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Since you started a Vs thread, you should analyse the Indian systems too. just google about sword fish/green pine radars and its ranges+air borne early warning systems.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So if a Mig 29 is comming in we know the AI cone and position our interceptor acordingly. We pitch our F-7PGs against IAF Bisons and commit our block 52 against SU-30.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What will you do if we send our fighters where the specific ACs as above not available?, the attacker has the choice in that case.
Click to expand...


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## silent hawk

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Thanks notorious_eagle, a system like VERA works on triangulation principle.Triangulation is a process by which the location of a transmitter can be determined by measuring either the radial distance, or the direction, of the received signal from two or three different points. So unless, PAF has VERA receivers on Indian soil or capability unknown to us the claim that *Vera gives "the PAF more that 300+ Km transfontier coverage into India" is hard to believe*.



The only requirement for triangulation is that the recievers must be seperated by a predefined distance. As Rafi mentioned for Vera this distance is 15 to 40 Km which can be achieved inside Pakistan. The nominal ranges are reported to be as much as 450Km which means that even if the radar is safely deployed 100 Km inland it would still give more than 300+ Km transfontier coverage.

For those who missed it here is Rafi's post.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/82343-paf-vs-iaf-command-control-systems-6.html#post1303798


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## maverick1977

@Death by chocolate,

Let me care to explain how VERA can look into india, i am not going to speculate on how far inside it will look into india.

As posted, the triagular principle dictates to have a 3D picture all the recievers should recieve singal from one concerned object. if 2 passive antennas or VERA are recieving signals from aircraft, safely, we can say 2D picture of that object is available. However, if one passive antanne recieves it, it might be able to suffice that objects information to point its location. ( someone correct me with 1 passive reciever recieving information only). 

we know that Veras are kept 40 kms apart at maximum, the minimum seperatoin between the 3 passive antennas can also be acheieved but it will compromise not only the accuracy of detectotion but also the range of the system.

If Pakistan experiments with 2 recievers placed in parallel to the indian border , lets say 10 miles away from indian border international border and the third one lets say deep inside about 40 miles from the border, then inorder for triangulation principle to hold, the reciever will be in the middle of all three devices. based on this, passive radars should be able to pick signals from indian airspace. how much range, i wont be able to answer it. it all depends on how sensitive the passive reciever is... 

if what the previous posts have pointed out that 450km range surrounding it, then i can safely say that 400kms range inside india is possible..... this is what i can infer based on my signal processing/wireless knowledge i have due to my engineering background... 

my only concern is the microwave link to the central site using Line of sight. Bad weather plays havoc with microwave links, lighting specially distorts the signal completely. but still i am sure the designer kept these limitations in mind and designed some LC filters to clean the noises introduced by the surroundings and also by changing weather... 



Hope this helps in understanding how triangulation principle can be applied close to the border... if not, i will love to explain in more detail..


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## rockstarIN

mehboobkz said:


> Only if you tell me where is the button for ejection seat located!



He is 'captain' dude, not a flight Lieutenant., instead he will tell you where is the safety lock of AK-47


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## silent hawk

rockstar said:


> It looks more neat
> 
> 
> Since you started a Vs thread, you should analyse the Indian systems too. just google about sword fish/green pine radars and its ranges+air borne early warning systems.
> 
> 
> 
> *What will you do if we send our fighters where the specific ACs as above not available?, the attacker has the choice in that case*.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PAF has always had the capability to carry out dispersed operations. Systems such as the Vera help us use our limited resources judiciously.
> 
> In case we do not have a compatible fighter we will pose a counter threat with whatever we have. The IAF will not get what it wants without a fight.
Click to expand...


----------



## silent hawk

*COMPARISION OF PAF AND IAF LOW LEVEL SENSORS​*
This is the comparision based on data gathered so far

*PAF Low level Sensors*

MPDR 45,60 and 90







YLC-6







*IAF Low level Sensors*

Indra






GS 100






Both sides seem pretty well balanced in the low level sensor domain. The PAF MPDR systems came with the capability to operate in a netted mode



Muradk said:


> Friend because of the Earth's curvature what Air defense does is deploy Radars after every few miles and make each other overlap and the nest is spread out all over the country



The nest spread all over has the ability to share data and voice and a composite low level picture is formed in the MCC mentioned in the Vision Defence System details

Due to lack of data I am asuming that the Indian low level radras are operating in an atonomous rather than a netted mode.

This would give PAF an edge however as far as the sensors are concerned pretty even I would say

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## dbc

maverick1977 said:


> @Death by chocolate,
> 
> Let me care to explain how VERA can look into india, i am not going to speculate on how far inside it will look into india.
> 
> As posted, the triagular principle dictates to have a 3D picture all the recievers should recieve singal from one concerned object. if 2 passive antennas or VERA are recieving signals from aircraft, safely, we can say 2D picture of that object is available. However, if one passive antanne recieves it, it might be able to suffice that objects information to point its location. ( someone correct me with 1 passive reciever recieving information only).
> 
> we know that Veras are kept 40 kms apart at maximum, the minimum seperatoin between the 3 passive antennas can also be acheieved but it will compromise not only the accuracy of detectotion but also the range of the system.
> 
> If Pakistan experiments with 2 recievers placed in parallel to the indian border , lets say 10 miles away from indian border international border and the third one lets say deep inside about 40 miles from the border, then inorder for triangulation principle to hold, the reciever will be in the middle of all three devices. based on this, passive radars should be able to pick signals from indian airspace. how much range, i wont be able to answer it. it all depends on how sensitive the passive reciever is...
> 
> if what the previous posts have pointed out that 450km range surrounding it, then i can safely say that 400kms range inside india is possible..... this is what i can infer based on my signal processing/wireless knowledge i have due to my engineering background...
> 
> my only concern is the microwave link to the central site using Line of sight. Bad weather plays havoc with microwave links, lighting specially distorts the signal completely. but still i am sure the designer kept these limitations in mind and designed some LC filters to clean the noises introduced by the surroundings and also by changing weather...
> 
> 
> 
> Hope this helps in understanding how triangulation principle can be applied close to the border... if not, i will love to explain in more detail..



Good you have an engineering background so you will understand what I'm about to say. The VERA system works on a refinement of the triangulation technique called wide area multilateration using time-difference-of-arrival (TDOA) technique. Wide area multilateration systems like VERA can detect and track *cooperating aircrafts* 300 kms into India outside of the VERA sensor network. Cooperative aircraft continuously transmit a signal similar to a transponder beacon or RACON. The characteristics of the signal should be known to the receiver for the system to perform TDOA calculations and track the aircraft outside the sensor network.

Non-cooperative targets need to be inside the sensor network to be accurately tracked. Outside the sensor network a system like VERA can detect the presence of a transmitter(aircraft) but it cannot accurately determine range, velocity or heading.


----------



## BS_Buster

silent hawk said:


> I appreciate your enthusiasm and patriotism. It was nice of you to admit that you are not a professional.
> 
> C4I systems are highly classified and getting reliable data on them is very difficult. However for true comparision accurate data is essential.
> 
> I would request people posting in this thread to be honest like BS_Buster and Antibody and let everyone know in case they are posting data about which they are not sure.
> 
> This is my first thread on this forum and I must say that I am very encouraged by the response.



thank for your appreciation. IAF never released any picture of their command and control systems except the IAACS. 

Its like Pakistan's only radar is Vera! Guys do not you have any other long range phased array radars? Vera type system is very old now. Vera was developed in the 90s. But the source only tells us Pakistan evaluated not bought it. 

OK what ever your say!


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## BS_Buster

silent hawk said:


> *COMPARISION OF PAF AND IAF LOW LEVEL SENSORS​*
> This is the comparision based on data gathered so far
> 
> *PAF Low level Sensors*
> 
> MPDR 45,60 and 90
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> YLC-6
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *IAF Low level Sensors*
> 
> Indra
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GS 100
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Both sides seem pretty well balanced in the low level sensor domain. The PAF MPDR systems came with the capability to operate in a netted mode
> 
> 
> 
> The nest spread all over has the ability to share data and voice and a composite low level picture is formed in the MCC mentioned in the Vision Defence System details
> 
> Due to lack of data I am asuming that the Indian low level radras are operating in an atonomous rather than a netted mode.
> 
> This would give PAF an edge however as far as the sensors are concerned pretty even I would say



are you comparing MPDR and YLC with GS 100? GS 100 is generation ahead. It is a full solid state phased array radar developed by Thales of France and Raytheon on US. 

IAF has some other low level radars, except INDRA and GS-100

Low Level Light Weight Radar

Ashlesha radar

It is an AESA radar





Bharani-2 radar





Bharani-1 radar

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## BS_Buster

3D Tactical Control Radar






3D Mobile Radar






BSR radar
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/SdzlCDdEZ5I/AAAAAAAAGdU/t9byG1MZJpY/s1600-h/7-719307.jpg

BLR radar
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/SdzlCeulIZI/AAAAAAAAGds/gbWjtF1sR6Y/s1600-h/10-721759.jpg


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## darkhand08

Hasn't anyone talked about the Integrated Space Cell.........It is a great strategic surveillance arm.


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## silent hawk

*COMPARISION OF PAF AND IAF HIGH LEVEL SENSORS​*
This is the comparision based on data gathered so far

*PAF High level Sensors*

TPS-77





VERA





YLC-2





TPS-43






*IAF High level Sensors*


GreenPine Radar





Sword Fish Radar





ST 68U





THD 1955





Once again both sides have a wide variety of high level sesors. IAF sensors have more range which gives them a strategic advantage. PAF has Vera which can identify targets which gives Pakistan a tactical edge. For both countries the area of interest in the high level regime is pretty well lit up. 

Please add any radar if I have missed any. I have deliberately not added weapon control radars. .


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## silent hawk

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Good you have an engineering background so you will understand what I'm about to say. The VERA system works on a refinement of the triangulation technique called wide area multilateration using time-difference-of-arrival (TDOA) technique. Wide area multilateration systems like VERA can detect and track *cooperating aircrafts* 300 kms into India outside of the VERA sensor network. Cooperative aircraft continuously transmit a signal similar to a transponder beacon or RACON. The characteristics of the signal should be known to the receiver for the system to perform TDOA calculations and track the aircraft outside the sensor network.
> 
> Non-cooperative targets need to be inside the sensor network to be accurately tracked. Outside the sensor network a system like VERA can detect the presence of a transmitter(aircraft) but it cannot accurately determine range, velocity or heading.



I aplogize for calling you a troll. What you say in your post about the Vera is correct. However as I mentioned in PAF all radars work in a netted mode and data from all radars is fused. When the data of Vera is fused with other sensors such as TPS-77, we get an identified picture with accurate range, velocity and heading.

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## rockstarIN

Rajendra is a passive Phased Array Radar developed by the Indian DRDO. It is a multifunction radar, capable of surveillance, tracking and engaging low radar cross section targets. It is the heart of the Akash Surface-to-air missile system and is the primary fire control sensor for an Akash battery.


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## rockstarIN

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/52874-indian-radar-systems.html

The above post is informative


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## paritosh

Rafi said:


> By the end of 2011, Pakistan plans to replace PAKSAT-1 with a new communication satellite PAKSAT-1R which will be manufactured exclusively for Pakistan. The satellite will support all conventional and modern Fixed Satellite Service (FSS) applications. The satellite will have a total of up to 30 transponders: 18 in Ku-band and 12 in C-band. To ensure high degree of reliability / availability of the system, two (02) fully redundant Satellite Ground Control Stations (SGCS) would be established in Karachi and Lahore, one to act as the Main and the other as Backup respectively.
> 
> This will contribute to our Armed Forces SATCOM abilities



you can't talk of communication satellites here...they'd help improve the clarity of your television transmission...
we have at least two dedicated military satellites...the CARTOSAT series and at least 11 remotes sensing satellites most of which provide a resolution of 1 metres...we have a dedicated space command cell...under the aegis of the IAF....
so there is no comparision whatsoever...
Tell me more about the SAR satellites of Pakistan...i am not up to date with that...


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## silent hawk

paritosh said:


> you can't talk of communication satellites here...they'd help improve the clarity of your television transmission...
> we have at least two dedicated military satellites...the CARTOSAT series and at least 11 remotes sensing satellites most of which provide a resolution of 1 metres...we have a dedicated space command cell...under the aegis of the IAF....
> so there is no comparision whatsoever...
> Tell me more about the SAR satellites of Pakistan...i am not up to date with that...



There is relevance. Pakistan for quite some time has been operating a SATCOM system to provide data and voice. At present this system is dependent on foreign satellites. With our own satellite dependency on foreign elements shall be eliminated.

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## silent hawk

rockstar said:


>



If possible please post a larger picture. Thanks


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## darkhand08

Sattellite surveillance is the next gen surveillance (in real time terms too).....Its good India is working on it....also ISRO and DRDO had announced earlier this year of developing Anti Sat Weapons...so Sattellite Defence is also focused at least.


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## Hulk

So far this thread is one of the best threads with civilized debate. Standing ovation from my side to all contributors. Please keep it that way.

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## Rafi

After successful launching and operation of BADR series of experimental satellites (BADR-1 and BADR-B) in the 1990s and early 2000s, SUPARCO now plans to launch high resolution remote sensing satellite system (RSSS) to meet the national and international user requirements in the field of satellite imagery.

A feasibility and system definition study was concluded in January 2007 which recommended the launch of a constellation of Optical and Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR) Satellites to ensure that the domestic and international user requirements are competitively met. In this respect the RFP for RSSS consultancy services was launched in July 2007. Launch of RFP for the manufacturing of the satellite is planned in the third quarter of year 2008.

RSSS is planned to be a progressive and sustainable program. Initially, SUPARCO plans to launch an optical satellite with payload of 2.5 meter PAN in 700 km sun-synchronous orbit by the end of year 2011, which will be followed by a series of optical and SAR satellites in future. Necessary infrastructure for ground control and image reception and processing is also planned to be setup.

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## Ammyy

Air Force Network - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> Air Force Network *(AFNet)* is a Indian Air Force (IAF) owned, operated and managed modern, state-of-the-art, fully secure and reliable network and *gigabyte digital information grid*. The AFNet replaces the Indian Air Force's (IAF) old communication network set-up using the tropo-scatter technology of the 1950s making it a true net-centric combat force. The IAF project is part of the overall mission to network all three services, that is The Indian Army, The Indian Navy and The Indian Air Force. Defence Minister of India Shri AK Antony inaugurated the IAF's the AFNET on 14 September 2010 dedicating it to the people of India, for their direct or indirect participation in the communication revolution





Integrated Air Command and Control System - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


> Integrated Air Command and Control System (IACCS)
> 
> Integrated Air Command and Control System (IACCS)of Indian Air Force is an automated command and control system for Air Defence (AD) operations will ride the Air Force Network (AFNET) AFNet backbone integrating all ground-based and airborne sensors, AD weapon systems and C2 nodes. Subsequent integration with other services networks and civil radars will provide an integrated Air Situation Picture to operators to carry out AD role. [1]
> 
> Through the IACCS, IAF will connect all of its space, air and ground assets quickly, for total awareness of a region. This will offer connectivity for all the ground platforms and airborne platforms, as a part of the network centricity of IAF. The IACCS also facilitates real-time transport of images, data and voice, amongst satellites, aircraft and ground stations. [2]



*I think this is VS thread so any thing like this in PAF ???*


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## Ammyy

*Integrated Space Cell*

An Integrated Space Cell, which will be jointly operated by all the three services of the Indian armed forces, the civilian Department of Space and the Indian Space Research Organization (ISRO) has been set up to utilize more effectively the country's space-based assets for military purposes and to look into threats to these assets.[7][8] This command will leverage space technology including satellites. Unlike an aerospace command, where the air force controls most of its activities, the Integrated Space Cell envisages cooperation and coordination between the three services as well as civilian agencies dealing with space.[70]

*India currently has 11 remote sensing satellites in orbit.* Though most are not meant to be dedicated military satellites,* some have a spacial resolution of 1 metre or below which can be also used for military applications.* Noteworthy satellites include the *Technology Experiment Satellite (TES) which has a panchromatic camera (PAN) with a resolution of 1 metre,[71] the RISAT-2 which is capable of imaging in all-weather conditions and has a resolution of one metre,*[72] *the CARTOSAT-2, CARTOSAT-2A[73] (a dedicated military satellite)*[74] and *CARTOSAT-2B[75] which carries a panchromatic camera which has a resolution of 80 centimetres (black and white only).*


Integrated Space Cell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Indian Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## SQ8

DRDO said:


> Air Force Network - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Integrated Air Command and Control System - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> *I think this is VS thread so any thing like this in PAF ???*




Our Integrated command and control system went operation back in the 90's..now its upgraded..
The AF has a new network now as well..compatible with the Army's new network that will come online in about two years..
So yes we do
Yes we do..
We just dont put it on wiki for show and tell.

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## Ammyy

santro said:


> Our Integrated command and control system went operation back in the 90's..now its upgraded..
> The AF has a new network now as well..compatible with the Army's new network that will come online in about two years..
> *So yes we do
> Yes we do..
> We just dont put it on wiki for show and tell.*



Why you taking it personally 

We are here distressing about Command and Control systems of IAF & PAF

And about your last line


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## BS_Buster

Rafi said:


> By the end of 2011, Pakistan plans to replace PAKSAT-1 with a new communication satellite PAKSAT-1R which will be manufactured exclusively for Pakistan. The satellite will support all conventional and modern Fixed Satellite Service (FSS) applications. The satellite will have a total of up to 30 transponders: 18 in Ku-band and 12 in C-band. To ensure high degree of reliability / availability of the system, two (02) fully redundant Satellite Ground Control Stations (SGCS) would be established in Karachi and Lahore, one to act as the Main and the other as Backup respectively.
> 
> This will contribute to our Armed Forces SATCOM abilities



Just operating some satellite does not mean it can be used by military. Give some sources that it is for military.


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## SQ8

DRDO said:


> Why you taking it personally
> 
> We are here distressing about Command and Control systems of IAF & PAF
> 
> And about your last line



Distressing?

That was a typo..
But distressing ??
Yes I am very distressed.. not about command and control systems though.. Ive been suspected of cancer.. but thank you for cheering me up..

My last line is about most Indian's favorite freely editable source..
Dont you guys have something other than wiki..not that its bad.. that your force structure..equipment..everything is available online..
it just gets a little monotonic with wiki..
It would have been nice to have a more detailed article on Afnet than a two paragraph wiki entry.


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## mjnaushad

How good our Command and control system is?

Ans: Aircrafts loaded with weapons coming for 'Surgical Strikes' didn't even dare to challenge PAF and RAN AWAY . 

UAVs by one of the best manufacturer shot down in no time.

Do i need to say more.


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## BS_Buster

silent hawk said:


> *COMPARISION OF PAF AND IAF HIGH LEVEL SENSORS​*
> This is the comparision based on data gathered so far
> 
> *PAF High level Sensors*
> 
> TPS-77
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> VERA
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> YLC-2
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TPS-43
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *IAF High level Sensors*
> 
> 
> GreenPine Radar
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sword Fish Radar
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ST 68U
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> THD 1955
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Once again both sides have a wide variety of high level sesors. IAF sensors have more range which gives them a strategic advantage. PAF has Vera which can identify targets which gives Pakistan a tactical edge. For both countries the area of interest in the high level regime is pretty well lit up.
> 
> Please add any radar if I have missed any. I have deliberately not added weapon control radars. .



Silent hawk, Vera again? Did not DBC told you how it operates? Is there any link that PAF bought it? No. Is there any pic or link that PAF has YLC-2? 

The Green pine and sword fish can track satellites what is the altitude of PAF radars?


----------



## mjnaushad

BS_Buster said:


> Just operating some satellite does not mean it can be used by military. Give some sources that it is for military.


No it won't be used for military. Happy?


----------



## BS_Buster

mjnaushad said:


> How good our Command and control system is?
> 
> Ans: Aircrafts loaded with weapons coming for 'Surgical Strikes' didn't even dare to challenge PAF and RAN AWAY .
> 
> UAVs by one of the best manufacturer shot down in no time.
> 
> Do i need to say more.



lol Our Mirages freely roam over your sky and you just watch. Do I need to say more?  

Pakistan govt's promise to bring the culprits will be brought under justice thats why they did not bomb. The case is still going in lahore high court check it.

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## SQ8

BS_Buster said:


> lol Our Mirages freely roam over your sky and you just watch. Do I need to say more?
> 
> Pakistan govt's promise to bring the culprits will be brought under justice thats why they did not bomb. The case is still going in lahore high court check it.



really?.. they freely roamed the skies..
Were they surrendering or something?

Bomb?.. id love to see how they would have managed that?..
And there were NO mirages..there were Su-30's on a probing mission..with their famed israeli jammers..
and were met right at the border..by interceptors..locked on..tailed in..but the ROE's did not allow for engagement.
In other words..they are alive because we wanted a diplomatic solution to the crises...they are alive because the GoI had saner heads prevailing..

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## silent hawk

DRDO said:


> Air Force Network - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Integrated Air Command and Control System - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> *I think this is VS thread so any thing like this in PAF ???*




PAF C4I system already posted in post below

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/82343-paf-vs-iaf-command-control-systems-5.html#post1303685

Pakistan is quite advanced in this field besides the system given in the thread above a c4I system has also been developed by Air Weapon Complex Pakistan. Details of this system are available in the following thread.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/30580-c4i-air-defense-automation-system.html

Pakistan infact is so advance in this field that it was selling C4I systems as far back as 2005.



> AWC Pakistan's air defence system inaugurated in Dhaka
> BUSINESS RECORDER
> 
> ISLAMABAD (March 18 2005): Prime Minister of Bangladesh, Begum Khalida Zia inaugurated the Air Defence Control and Command (ADCC) System prepared by Air Weapon Complex (AWC), Pakistan in Dhaka on Thursday. The inaugural ceremony was attended by AWC team led by Director General AWC Air Vice-Marshal Raja Tariq Mehmood. Bangladesh had floated a tender for Air Defence Automation System with Integrated War gaming for Bangladesh Air Forces. AWC's technical and financial proposal was deemed as the most attractive and a contract was signed between AWC and Bangladesh Government in June 2003.
> 
> AWC a constituent organisation of National Engineering & Scientific Commission (NESCOM) also conducted comprehensive and detailed operational maintenance training of Bangladesh Air Force personnel in Pakistan. Additionally, an ongoing training program was also conducted in Bangladesh.
> 
> As a fresh milestone in its journey of glory, AWC has succeeded in indigenous development of Command & Control System. AWC does not depend on any foreign company for supply or support, hence ensuring an un-interruptible supply, support and maintenance of the system.
> 
> The salient feature of this system is its reliability under all weather and geographical conditions. It provides the commander an instant update of all developments in the battle or concentration area.
> 
> The system's competence, reliability, mobility and all weather friendliness proven during its trials deeply impressed Bangladesh and AWC's aggressive marketing persuaded Bangladesh to purchase the system for its Air Force.
> 
> Air Weapons Complex (AWC) is an enterprising young organisation with its roots going back to 1992. Although, still a nascent organisation, it has established itself as a leader in the field of support systems and air defence for the Armed Forces of Pakistan.


----------



## notorious_eagle

BS_Buster said:


> lol *Our Mirages freely roam over your sky and you just watch. Do I need to say more?*
> 
> Pakistan govt's promise to bring the culprits will be brought under justice thats why they did not bomb. The case is still going in lahore high court check it.



When did that happen? Whatever your smoking, please share it with me cause i am really bored today and wouldn't mind smoking up something nice. The reason why IAF didn't carry our surgical strikes is because any strike would have drawn out retaliatory strike from PAF, but to carry out a strike your strike package would need to cross the border where PAF interceptors would be waiting for you .


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## SQ8

Silent hawk..
dont bother with the links..
You could show twins to some cynics and they will still come back asking for a birth certificate to see if they were really twins...
they will come at birth..at the tenth birthday..at graduation..even after the twins are dead.

However..the vera was tested..not ordered.


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## silent hawk

santro said:


> Distressing?
> 
> That was a typo..
> But distressing ??
> Yes I am very distressed.. not about command and control systems though.. Ive been suspected of cancer.. but thank you for cheering me up..
> 
> My last line is about most Indian's favorite freely editable source..
> Dont you guys have something other than wiki..not that its bad.. that your force structure..equipment..everything is available online..
> it just gets a little monotonic with wiki..
> It would have been nice to have a more detailed article on Afnet than a two paragraph wiki entry.



Hope you get well soon Santro all of regardless of our nationality pray for your health

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## silent hawk

BS_Buster said:


> Just operating some satellite does not mean it can be used by military. Give some sources that it is for military.



Please go through following post

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/82343-paf-vs-iaf-command-control-systems-9.html#post1305994


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## SQ8

silent hawk said:


> Hope you get well soon Santro all of regardless of our nationality pray for your health



Lets hope the tests come clear and its just some really bad ulcers..
But the initial diagnosis really freaked me out..

There is a component of the Radar system you missed..and that is an indigenous low alt system being developed locally..

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## Ammyy

silent hawk said:


> PAF C4I system already posted in post below
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/82343-paf-vs-iaf-command-control-systems-5.html#post1303685
> 
> Pakistan is quite advanced in this field besides the system given in the thread above a c4I system has also been developed by Air Weapon Complex Pakistan. Details of this system are available in the following thread.
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/30580-c4i-air-defense-automation-system.html
> 
> Pakistan infact is so advance in this field that it was selling C4I systems as far back as 2005.



It seems like these all systems are not even close to IAF (Looks pretty ordinary) 

*And non of your source reveal technical specification of these systems *

except this 


> The salient feature of this system is its reliability under all weather and geographical conditions. It provides the commander an instant update of all developments in the battle or concentration area.



So how ????


> Pakistan is quite advanced in this field

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## silent hawk

BS_Buster said:


> Silent hawk, Vera again? Did not DBC told you how it operates? Is there any link that PAF bought it? No. Is there any pic or link that PAF has YLC-2?
> 
> The Green pine and sword fish can track satellites what is the altitude of PAF radars?



All of these pictures have been taken from the net and a search on google will reveal that the info is correct.

As I said before in due course of time it shall be established that my information is almost always correct.


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## mehboobkz

> Pakistan infact is so advance in this field that it was selling C4I systems as far back as 2005.



Which country bought it in the last 5 years?


----------



## mehboobkz

> All of these pictures have been taken from the net and a search on google will reveal that the info is correct.



All hat, no cattle!


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## silent hawk

santro said:


> Lets hope the tests come clear and its just some really bad ulcers..
> But the initial diagnosis really freaked me out..
> 
> There is a component of the Radar system you missed..and that is an indigenous low alt system being developed locally..



There is a lot I know but cannot share because this is an open forum. By enlarge I can only talk about things which in some form or the other have already been made available to the public.


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## mky7

Rapid Deployable Aerostat Systems Turn-Key Solutions


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## silent hawk

BS_Buster said:


> lol Our Mirages freely roam over your sky and you just watch. Do I need to say more?
> 
> Pakistan govt's promise to bring the culprits will be brought under justice thats why they did not bomb. The case is still going in lahore high court check it.



This simply is incorrect. 

Serious discussions with IAF and PAF personnel would reveal that the reaction of both forces to threats is very prompt.

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## silent hawk

mehboobkz said:


> Which country bought it in the last 5 years?



It is mentioned in the post. Please go through.


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## rockstarIN

santro said:


> really?.. they freely roamed the skies..
> Were they surrendering or something?
> 
> Bomb?.. id love to see how they would have managed that?..
> And there were NO mirages..there were Su-30's on a probing mission..with their famed israeli jammers..
> and were met right at the border..by interceptors..locked on..tailed in..but the ROE's did not allow for engagement.
> In other words..they are alive because we wanted a diplomatic solution to the crises...they are alive because the GoI had saner heads prevailing..



Santro: It has been debated over and over again in lots of threads regarding ROS's lock on Su-30 MKI.

As you know that IR missiles do not need a radar lock as it is woking on heat seeking technology.

For a so called "LOCK ON" you need a radar which should have enough range to search and track + a Radar Guided BVR missile..

Mirage Rose's Grifo M3 Radar has only 35 km range and even if you have a BVR(Darter or somthing)that time you need radar's source code to integrate it(which has been quoted by the military professionals in this fourm"AMRAM V.S SD-10 thread).

So without a credible radar & missile, how can a 3rd generation interceptor can lock on a 4.5 gen fighter?(which came out victories against F-15Cs, F-16s & even EFs in war games)

MKIs BARS radar is so powerful that it can pick up Mirages from more than 100 km. Logically this claim is very baseless..

Rgds,


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## silent hawk

mehboobkz said:


> All hat, no cattle!



Are you trying to flame?

If you are not ready to accept my info that is your choice and I respect it.

I do not think there is any reason to be rude.


*The Results in War is Never Absolute *

Carl Von Clausewitz​
Although this is a Vs thread but like all Vs thread it is not going to prove anything yes it will make all of us more knowledgeable that is the intention


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## notorious_eagle

santro said:


> *Lets hope the tests come clear and its just some really bad ulcers..
> But the initial diagnosis really freaked me out..*
> 
> There is a component of the Radar system you missed..and that is an indigenous low alt system being developed locally..



Wish you a speedy recovery Santro, Inshallah everything will be fine.

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## mehboobkz

silent hawk said:


> If you are not ready to accept my info that is your choice and I respect it.
> 
> 
> 
> *The Results in War is Never Absolute *
> 
> Carl Von Clausewitz​
> Although this is a Vs thread but like all Vs thread it is not going to prove anything yes it will make all of us more knowledgeable that is the intention




Your following comments speak volume:

_There is a lot I know but cannot share because this is an open forum._

You clearly expressed your inability to comply with other forumites, when the rubber meets the road!


----------



## silent hawk

The IACCS is a system under development.

IAF to get more flying machines - The Times of India

From the same article



> Athawale said the gigabyte digital information grid of IAF, Air Force Network (AFNET) was launched on September 14. "Work on the Integrated Air Command and Control System (IACCS) is also on. Through this IAF will connect all of its space, air and ground assets quickly, for total awareness of a region. This will offer connectivity for all the ground platforms and airborne platforms, as a part of the network centricity of IAF," he said.



Are there any active IAF C4I systems ?


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## SQ8

rockstar said:


> Santro: It has been debated over and over again in lots of threads regarding ROS's lock on Su-30 MKI.
> 
> As you know that IR missiles do not need a radar lock as it is woking on heat seeking technology.
> 
> For a so called "LOCK ON" you need a radar which should have enough range to search and track + a Radar Guided BVR missile..
> 
> Mirage Rose's Grifo M3 Radar has only 35 km range and even if you have a BVR(Darter or somthing)that time you need radar's source code to integrate it(which has been quoted by the military professionals in this fourm"AMRAM V.S SD-10 thread).
> 
> So without a credible radar & missile, how can a 3rd generation interceptor can lock on a 4.5 gen fighter?(which came out victories against F-15Cs, F-16s & even EFs in war games)
> 
> MKIs BARS radar is so powerful that it can pick up Mirages from more than 100 km. Logically this claim is very baseless..
> 
> Rgds,



Are to privy to the range on the grifo radar by a SELEX or PAF source?
Or by any chance have official records for the grifo's range against a 20m3 target?
Or whether Mirages intercepted the Su's..or the F-7s.. or the F-16's..
Whether they were carrying a BVR or not? If they had integration issues?
Your post is baseless until you give me more than just skepticism based on your views across the border supporting your military.

Regards

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## BS_Buster

mjnaushad said:


> No it won't be used for military. Happy?



So you were lying!  They cannot be used for military.


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## Ammyy

silent hawk said:


> The IACCS is a system under development.
> 
> IAF to get more flying machines - The Times of India
> 
> From the same article
> 
> 
> 
> Are there any active IAF C4I systems ?



Dude as i told already these systems are pretty ordinary infront of current Indian systems


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## BS_Buster

santro said:


> really?.. they freely roamed the skies..
> Were they surrendering or something?



Who has surrendered? 



> Bomb?.. id love to see how they would have managed that?..
> And there were NO mirages..there were Su-30's on a probing mission..with their famed israeli jammers..
> and were met right at the border..by interceptors..locked on..tailed in..but the ROE's did not allow for engagement.
> In other words..they are alive because we wanted a diplomatic solution to the crises...they are alive because the GoI had saner heads prevailing..



It was mirage not Su-30. there was a news about that. You want to say that vintage rose locked on SU-30? SU-30 can shoot it down before it even able to see Su-30 on its radar. Su-30's radar has a range of 200 km. 

You want to say that SU-30 with israeli jammer run away while rose came?  Can the Rose lock on F-22 raptor as well?

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## BS_Buster

notorious_eagle said:


> When did that happen? Whatever your smoking, please share it with me cause i am really bored today and wouldn't mind smoking up something nice. The reason why IAF didn't carry our surgical strikes is because any strike would have drawn out retaliatory strike from PAF, but to carry out a strike your strike package would need to cross the border where PAF interceptors would be waiting for you .



PAF's retaliatory strike with what? few F-16A and Rose against 100+ SU-30mki, mirage-2000?


----------



## BS_Buster

silent hawk said:


> Please go through following post
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/82343-paf-vs-iaf-command-control-systems-9.html#post1305994



India operating its own satellite for last 20. does it mean we had own satcom 20 years back? no. secure satcom for military operation needs advanced technologies.


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## silent hawk

DRDO said:


> Dude as i told already these systems are pretty ordinary infront of current Indian systems



There is no Info on Indian systems. For the purpose of this thead I have no ther option than to conclude that AFNET is in place and IACCS is under development. That to me is where India stands today.


----------



## BS_Buster

silent hawk said:


> All of these pictures have been taken from the net and a search on google will reveal that the info is correct.
> 
> As I said before in due course of time it shall be established that my information is almost always correct.



it only say that pakistan leased it. ok. ylc-2? 

what is the altitude coverage of pakistani high attitude radars?


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## silent hawk

BS_Buster said:


> India operating its own satellite for last 20. does it mean we had own satcom 20 years back? no. secure satcom for military operation needs advanced technologies.



You probably are not from an Engineering background. Comm Security can be achieved by two methods. Securing the Link and/or Securing the data. PAF in line with its interoprable model has choosen the second option. If India has not used its satellites than that is there option. I know for a fact that SATCOM in Pakistan has been a reality for quite some time now.


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## BS_Buster

silent hawk said:


> The IACCS is a system under development.
> 
> IAF to get more flying machines - The Times of India
> 
> From the same article
> 
> 
> 
> Are there any active IAF C4I systems ?



the C4I system you are talking in PAF was inducted into the IAF in late 90s. these are very old systems. the AFNET and IAACS are modern and very few countries has such technologies. Pakistan do not have a robust IT industry like India nor has any advanced computer technologies.


----------



## BS_Buster

silent hawk said:


> You probably are not from an Engineering background. Comm Security can be achieved by two methods. Securing the Link and/or Securing the data. PAF in line with its interoprable model has choosen the second option. If India has not used its satellites than that is there option. I know for a fact that SATCOM in Pakistan has been a reality for quite some time now.



india had satellite and they did not used it is very funny reason. if paf is using any satcom its might be bought from abroad. pakistan is long long way to go before utlising ts own satcom, come on man, this is your first satellite that is also with chinese building it, you can not expect so much. 

where it say that the satellite will be used by military?


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## maverick1977

BS_buster, Pakistan has a very robust IT industry for its size. Trust me! and with all honestly i have seen the quality of indian engineers in US for the last 15 years. i am afraid they are very poor in communicatoins and book only IT professionals... they learn practical side of what they learn in US, not India.

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## BS_Buster

you are claiming things of nothing like Rose chasing Su-30, pakistan's first satelite is military satellite, ylc and MPDR better than GS 100!


----------



## mehboobkz

silent hawk said:


> You probably are not from an Engineering background. Comm Security can be achieved by two methods. Securing the Link and/or Securing the data. PAF in line with its interoprable model has choosen the second option. If India has not used its satellites than that is there option. I know for a fact that SATCOM in Pakistan has been a reality for quite some time now.



QUOTE:

The compound word COMSEC originated from COMmunications SECurity; however, it is now used mainly to refer to the COMSEC equipment that provides security for telecommunications by converting information to a form unintelligible to an unauthorized interceptor and, subsequently, by reconverting such information in its original form for authorized recipients. Also, devices designed specifically to aid in, or as an essential element of, the conversion process.

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## silent hawk

BS_Buster said:


> i am not a professional but searching the web and posting staffs!



You are obviously not a professional and info on Active IAF C4I systems is simply not available. Please do not spread misinformation in this thread.

Personally you have very little creadibility left in my opinion and I shall be doublechecking everything you post.

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## notorious_eagle

BS_Buster said:


> PAF's retaliatory strike with what? few F-16A and Rose against 100+ SU-30mki, mirage-2000?



After reading that you have proved to me that your a fanboy . So just because IAF fields SU30MKI and Mirage 2000, does that make them invincible and impossible to shoot down . They are no Raptors, anything that can be seen on the radar is a fair game. Do you even know the basics of Air to Air Warfare? Weren't you Indians jumping up and down when the Bisons out bested the F15's, how did that happen considering the MIG 21 is a 3 Generation Aircraft and F15 is a 4th Generation Aircraft. A lot matters on how the aircraft was deployed, what tactics were used and what were the supporting elements. 

If you believe PAF will not reply back in force, than you are seriously deluded. What happened to the so called surgical strikes and 5000 targets that the IAF had earmarked . All talk but no action, the fact that IAF did not dare cross the border is ample proof that they feared what PAF had in store for them. They are always welcome to cross the border and see what we have for them in store, but since they havent dared to should be enough proof that PAF has enough fire power to hold its own against the IAF . You can take pictures of your strike fighters and look at them with all awe, but the fact that they are useless against us simply makes me laugh.

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## SQ8

BS_Buster said:


> Who has surrendered?
> 
> 
> 
> It was mirage not Su-30. there was a news about that. You want to say that vintage rose locked on SU-30? SU-30 can shoot it down before it even able to see Su-30 on its radar. Su-30's radar has a range of 200 km.
> 
> You want to say that SU-30 with israeli jammer run away while rose came?  Can the Rose lock on F-22 raptor as well?



Nope..
It was not a mirage...
And if you want to do more BS..
please choose a different forum.
might I recommend this for you..
Bharat Rakshak &bull; Index page
fits your observable intelligence level perfectly.

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## India Rising

notorious_eagle said:


> After reading that you have proved to me that your a fanboy . So just because IAF fields SU30MKI and Mirage 2000, does that make them invincible and impossible to shoot down . They are no Raptors, anything that can be seen on the radar is a fair game. Do you even know the basics of Air to Air Warfare? Weren't you Indians jumping up and down when the Bisons out bested the F15's, how did that happen considering the MIG 21 is a 3 Generation Aircraft and F15 is a 4th Generation Aircraft. A lot matters on how the aircraft was deployed, what tactics were used and what were the supporting elements.
> 
> If you believe PAF will not reply back in force, than you are seriously deluded. What happened to the so called surgical strikes and 5000 targets that the IAF had earmarked . All talk but no action, the fact that IAF did not dare cross the border is ample proof that they feared what PAF had in store for them. They are always welcome to cross the border and see what we have for them in store, but since they havent dared to should be enough proof that PAF has enough fire power to hold its own against the IAF . You can take pictures of your strike fighters and look at them with all awe, but the fact that they are useless against us simply makes me laugh.


'Pak army no match for India's so we want more nukes' - The Times of India

just go through it.....


----------



## BS_Buster

maverick1977 said:


> BS_buster, Pakistan has a very robust IT industry for its size. Trust me! and with all honestly i have seen the quality of indian engineers in US for the last 15 years.



What is pakistan's software export? 



> i am afraid they are very poor in communicatoins and book only IT professionals... they learn practical side of what they learn in US, not India.





lol than you might have very poor knowledge about Indian in US,

Just some examples, 

Google's President, Global Sales Operations and Business Development is an indian
Apple's supercomputer facility is headed by an indian
Indians in Intel have invented USB port, pentium processor.
The design programme chief of Intel's new Core i7 processor are indians.
Indians are the deans of Chicago and Harvard university's management schools.

and many more in Microsoft, Sun microsystems, IBM etc. 

*Every big IT companies has research labs in India like Microsoft, Intel, Yahoo, google, IBM, Samsung, Nokia, Siemens, SAP, Sun micro systems, People's soft, Oracle, bell, alcatel lucent etc. How many has in Pakistan? *

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## mehboobkz

And number of Pakistani satellites orbiting?


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## BS_Buster

silent hawk said:


> You are obviously not a professional and info on Active IAF C4I systems is simply not available. Please do not spread misinformation in this thread.
> 
> Personally you have very little creadibility left in my opinion and I shall be doublechecking everything you post.



you quoted a post from 6 pages back because you do not have any answer?  

I have given image of IAACS and AFNET when asked about link for vera and PAF's satellites now i am bad?     

You can simply say that i do not have any source. i am not a professional i said that but you are not any better than me.

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## Ammyy

BS_Buster said:


> you quoted a post from 6 pages back because you do not have any answer?
> 
> I have given image of IAACS and AFNET when asked about link for vera and PAF's satellites now i am bad?
> 
> You can simply say that i do not have any source. i am not a professional i said that but you are not any better than me.



Ones he is talking about Data link systems in IAf, some Indian member's post info of those systems and ask about Pakistani system then again no answer


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## BS_Buster

silent do you really know what is C4I? C4I stands for command, control, communications, computers, and (military) intelligence.


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## silent hawk

A little tester for those who claim they have know how about C4I systems capable of operating in net centric environments.

What is the most challenging aspect of designing and developing such systems?


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## SQ8

DRDO said:


> Ones he is talking about Data link systems in IAf, some Indian member's post info of those systems and ask about Pakistani system then again no answer



Thats because we dont have eager 15 yr olds and call center operatives sitting all day just doing publicity for India on the internet..
If we implemented something as necessary as a C4I network..we would rather keep quiet about it unless a journalist asks for the system..the ISPR clears it..and then you can find it on the information highway.
However.. there is a nice long ten page discussion on it for those who can get access to this book.
Key Publishing Limited Books

Clearly silent_hawks posts arent credible to the geniuses using google for their information.

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## Ammyy

santro said:


> T*hats because we dont have eager 15 yr olds and call center operatives sitting all day just doing publicity for India on the internet..*
> If we implemented something as necessary as a C4I network..we would rather keep quiet about it unless a journalist asks for the system..the ISPR clears it..and then you can find it on the information highway.
> However.. there is a nice long ten page discussion on it for those who can get access to this book.
> Key Publishing Limited Books



Then what you are doing here ???? (Ohh some one working in Internet cafe)

I like your frustration its really funny


----------



## rockstarIN

santro said:


> Are to privy to the range on the grifo radar by a SELEX or PAF source?
> Or by any chance have official records for the grifo's range against a 20m3 target?
> Or whether Mirages intercepted the Su's..or the F-7s.. or the F-16's..
> Whether they were carrying a BVR or not? If they had integration issues?
> Your post is baseless until you give me more than just skepticism based on your views across the border supporting your military.
> 
> Regards



---Its you told that Mki's not mirages.

---You told its been intercepted by F-7s

m3---You stated that it was chased or locked on

Mki is 20m3 but BARS can pick up 2m3 as far as 140 kms, leave ECMs

Your post was just baseless and I wrote about the 'logic' on your post,nothing else..

Rgds,


----------



## SQ8

I like your delusions too..they are hilarious..

Now do you have anything Useful for the topic..?
Anything beyond your wiki links?


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## silent hawk

Leave them alone Santro engaging people like DRDO and BS_Buster gives them undue importance. No point in wasting time on people who have little knowledge and even lesser honor.

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## mehboobkz

> What is the most challenging aspect of designing and developing such systems?



You dont give info on open forum, but you ask such info?


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## BS_Buster

DRDO said:


> Ones he is talking about Data link systems in IAf, some Indian member's post info of those systems and ask about Pakistani system then again no answer



He is confusing data link and C4I. What he posted about PAF is in IAF use for more than a decade. Now IAF going for full net centric warfare level and he is questioning about C4I!  

Indian navy netcentric warfare,






IACCS





these info are not enough!

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## SQ8

rockstar said:


> ---Its you told that Mki's not mirages.
> 
> ---You told its been intercepted by F-7s
> 
> m3---You stated that it was chased or locked on
> 
> Mki is 20m3 but BARS can pick up 2m3 as far as 140 kms, leave ECMs
> 
> Your post was just baseless and I wrote about the 'logic' on your post,nothing else..
> 
> Rgds,



intercepted by F-7's?
I never mentioned F-7's..I said interceptors..pardon the misnomer..should I simply have said jets?
Where is this source..about the mirages..? I wish to be corrected if you are privy to an IAF release..PAF release.. news? give me something to work with.. even if you know an IAF officer who tells you that those were mirages I am prepared to accept it.My source is a PAF officer.
Now..
as far as the incident is concerned..
They were intercepted by jets at the border..locked on..tailed..as far as Kharian..after which they turned back.
Now.. what would have been the outcome if this was weapons hot?
Whether there was BVR or Not in use on those PAF jets?
Do you have that information..?
You keep giving me radar ranges..
nothing about RoE's.. geographic data.. bases.. weapons.. etc?

In any case...
This will detract from the original discussion..we may continue this on PM if you wish..
if you have good proof on the type of aircraft involved I will be glad to know further.

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## BS_Buster

notorious_eagle said:


> After reading that you have proved to me that your a fanboy . So just because IAF fields SU30MKI and Mirage 2000, does that make them invincible and impossible to shoot down . They are no Raptors, anything that can be seen on the radar is a fair game. Do you even know the basics of Air to Air Warfare? Weren't you Indians jumping up and down when the Bisons out bested the F15's, how did that happen considering the MIG 21 is a 3 Generation Aircraft and F15 is a 4th Generation Aircraft. A lot matters on how the aircraft was deployed, what tactics were used and what were the supporting elements.
> 
> If you believe PAF will not reply back in force, than you are seriously deluded. What happened to the so called surgical strikes and 5000 targets that the IAF had earmarked . All talk but no action, the fact that IAF did not dare cross the border is ample proof that they feared what PAF had in store for them. They are always welcome to cross the border and see what we have for them in store, but since they havent dared to should be enough proof that PAF has enough fire power to hold its own against the IAF . You can take pictures of your strike fighters and look at them with all awe, but the fact that they are useless against us simply makes me laugh.



If i am a fanboy than you are a fangirl. 

not invincible against everyone but certainly against rose. 

those bison against f-15 had long range kypo radar, BVR missiles and israeli jammers. 

when i said paf will not attack back? but he is saying su-30 with israeli jammers run away saying rose coming! 
*
surgical strike did not happen because Pakistani govt banned JuD, there is a case going on against 26/11 culprits at lahore high court and pakistani govt commited to punish them. *


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## silent hawk

BS_Buster said:


> He is confusing data link and C4I. What he posted about PAF is in IAF use for more than a decade. Now IAF going for full net centric warfare level and he is questioning about C4I!
> 
> Indian navy netcentric warfare,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IACCS
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> these info are not enough!



*Thanks Now I am convinced that India is behind Pakistan in C4I systems*

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## SQ8

mehboobkz said:


> You dont give info on open forum, but you ask such info?



Asking for a specific development.. he is asking for the general approach..
There is a stark difference in that.


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## mehboobkz

santro said:


> Asking for a specific development.. he is asking for the general approach..
> There is a stark difference in that.




Check this out what he has to say!



> There is a lot I know but cannot share because this is an open forum. By enlarge I can only talk about things which in some form or the other have already been made available to the public.




We know he wants to write an essay on indian CSI4 for his school project - but thats fine.


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## SQ8

mehboobkz said:


> Check this out what he has to say!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We know he wants to write an essay on indian CSI4 for his school project - but thats fine.



Im not sure what he does..I dont know..neither do you.. so why comment on it.
There are posters here who are linked to development programs..and others that are posers..
The Mods,Military professionals and TT's sort it out best..
But those that are may be here for discussion without compromising OPSEC...in some cases it happens..and the consequences are dire.
for eg.
http://www.google.com.pk/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CB0QFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fformerspook.blogspot.com%2F2008%2F03%2Fdozer-speaks.html&rct=j&q=dozer%20F-22&ei=ZZ72TPzWHoeyrAfUh72kBw&usg=AFQjCNE6uWIuWV4au8_3errBkjq4Cdr7OQ&cad=rja
But if you doubt his claims.. then its all good...Agree to disagree.


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## BS_Buster

silent hawk said:


> Leave them alone Santro engaging people like DRDO and BS_Buster gives them undue importance. No point in wasting time on people who have little knowledge and even lesser honor.



You ask someone source for their claims and get reply like this!  

After 14 pages he understood this! 

Silent hawk, increase your knowledge from an un-professional like me every IAF even lankan AF has C4I system forget IAF which is now an aerospace power! 

This is inside phalcon,


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## rockstarIN

santro said:


> intercepted by F-7's?
> I never mentioned F-7's..I said interceptors..pardon the misnomer..should I simply have said jets?
> Where is this source..about the mirages..? I wish to be corrected if you are privy to an IAF release..PAF release.. news? give me something to work with.. even if you know an IAF officer who tells you that those were mirages I am prepared to accept it.My source is a PAF officer.
> Now..
> as far as the incident is concerned..
> They were intercepted by jets at the border..locked on..tailed..as far as Kharian..after which they turned back.
> Now.. what would have been the outcome if this was weapons hot?
> Whether there was BVR or Not in use on those PAF jets?
> Do you have that information..?
> You keep giving me radar ranges..
> nothing about RoE's.. geographic data.. bases.. weapons.. etc?
> 
> In any case...
> This will detract from the original discussion..we may continue this on PM if you wish..
> if you have good proof on the type of aircraft involved I will be glad to know further.



Opps..you said it was Mirage rose and i spelled it as F-7 in previous post.

And about my source, simply nothing, I know no IAF officer, not even my fellow state mate AK Antony..

I just writing based upon simple logics, nothing else.

You can say Alexander defeated 50,000 persians with 5,000 soldiers, but there should be some logic, say they are better armed or they are sleeping while attacked by Alexander..

I rely on simply such logic and technicaly authonticated by few professionals in some other threads.

I have no answer if you say that the Mirage Rose pilot told you so..

But remember Armymen always tend to say more to the public about their heroics, any army.

|Rgds,


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## BS_Buster

silent hawk said:


> *Thanks Now I am convinced that India is behind Pakistan in C4I systems*


*
Thanks for revealing that Pakistan do not have any C4I systems and you know nothing about C4I. * 

you failed to provide any info on C4I in PAF.

*I became bad because I asked for source!*


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## lionheart1

notorious_eagle said:


> After reading that you have proved to me that your a fanboy . So just because IAF fields SU30MKI and Mirage 2000, does that make them invincible and impossible to shoot down . They are no Raptors, anything that can be seen on the radar is a fair game. Do you even know the basics of Air to Air Warfare? Weren't you Indians jumping up and down when the Bisons out bested the F15's, how did that happen considering the MIG 21 is a 3 Generation Aircraft and F15 is a 4th Generation Aircraft. A lot matters on how the aircraft was deployed, what tactics were used and what were the supporting elements.
> 
> If you believe PAF will not reply back in force, than you are seriously deluded. What happened to the so called surgical strikes and 5000 targets that the IAF had earmarked . All talk but no action, the fact that IAF did not dare cross the border is ample proof that they feared what PAF had in store for them. They are always welcome to cross the border and see what we have for them in store, but since they havent dared to should be enough proof that PAF has enough fire power to hold its own against the IAF . You can take pictures of your strike fighters and look at them with all awe, but the fact that they are useless against us simply makes me laugh.



sir i had lot of respect for your post but this post is totally fun boy type ( un expected from you atleast) . some clarification 
firstly government of India will take decision on surgical strike not IAF, there was a talk about american (bush ) was considering targeting LET camp in pakistan , it didnt happen meens US is weak 
do you rally think that pakistan has capability to target India with your airforce agaist our air-defense. then why this 
'Pak army no match for India's so we want more nukes' - The Times of India
here pakistani army means pakistani armed forces, answer me logically if you can

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## SQ8

rockstar said:


> Opps..you said it was Mirage rose and i spelled it as F-7 in previous post.
> 
> And about my source, simply nothing, I know no IAF officer, not even my fellow state mate AK Antony..
> 
> I just writing based upon simple logics, nothing else.
> 
> You can say Alexander defeated 50,000 persians with 5,000 soldiers, but there should be some logic, say they are better armed or they are sleeping while attacked by Alexander..
> 
> I rely on simply such logic and technicaly authonticated by few professionals in some other threads.
> 
> I have no answer if you say that the Mirage Rose pilot told you so..
> 
> But remember Armymen always tend to say more to the public about their heroics, any army.
> 
> |Rgds,




Rockstar..I have looked through all my posts in this thread and nowhere did I mention Mirages or any other jet as the PAF aircraft involved in that incident?
Did I mention it in any other thread that you took it from?

Again.. you have answered your own questions..
It was a combination of factors..that was Alexander's victory.
And yes..military men do exaggerate a lot..but within boundaries..
and the source I state is rarely prone to exaggerating..his description of the incident was one of consternation about the reality of conflict during that time.. not one out of bravado.

P.S...
I am not an MKI skeptic..if you assume me as one..
In all likelyhood the PAF aircraft in actual war would have been engaged from behind Indian lines..some may have been shot down..but would all have been.. would the attack still be as effective..
is a long debate.


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## rockstarIN

> Do you even know the basics of Air to Air Warfare? Weren't you Indians jumping up and down when the Bisons out bested the F15's, how did that happen considering the MIG 21 is a 3 Generation Aircraft and F15 is a 4th Generation Aircraft. A lot matters on how the aircraft was deployed, what tactics were used and what were the supporting elements.



A2A warfare is always based on tactics not one to one. 




> If you believe PAF will not reply back in force, than you are seriously deluded


.

Offcource they will reply, it is anticipated.



> What happened to the so called surgical strikes and 5000 targets that the IAF had earmarked . All talk but no action


, 

Its is a political decision, MMS will decide, not the Army Chief in India.



> the fact that IAF did not dare cross the border is ample proof that they feared what PAF had in store for them. They are always welcome to cross the border and see what we have for them in store, but since they havent dared to should be enough proof that PAF has enough fire power to hold its own against the IAF



Never ever say they do not dare to cross the border, as I said earlier it is always a political decision in India, we know the capabilities of PAF and not underestimating them. Whenever our political leaders give go ahead to Army and fully support it, they proved it in the battle field. Better Pakistan knows it.



> . You can take pictures of your strike fighters and look at them with all awe, but the fact that they are useless against us simply makes me laugh.


[/QUOTE]

I really feel awkward about your statement. Im sure you will say the same about USAF too, U really know that what we are up for..Our Patience is ur biggest stregnth, nothing else.

Rgds,

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## rockstarIN

> santro said:
> 
> 
> 
> Rockstar..I have looked through all my posts in this thread and nowhere did I mention Mirages or any other jet as the PAF aircraft involved in that incident?
> Did I mention it in any other thread that you took it from?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now I'm too lazy to go back
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again.. you have answered your own questions..
> It was a combination of factors..that was Alexander's victory.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, but it should be convincing to a man with commonsense., thats it.
> 
> PS- Im still not convinced Alexander really won the war with porus, killing war elephants still a mistery to me, not convinced by some History channel videos at all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And yes..military men do exaggerate a lot..but within boundaries..
> and the source I state is rarely prone to exaggerating..his description of the incident was one of consternation about the reality of conflict during that time.. not one out of bravado.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Again, in that point, nothing I can say.
Click to expand...


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## maverick1977

We are talking about professionals not anyone heading any firms. i have my class fellows working in following organzation with PHds and masters.

1) Google,
2) IBM
3) DoD federal Us government. PHD heading IPV6 divison for next generation project for US army.
4) Intel, two PHD friends.
5) Microsoft, 3 of my class fellows, one back end programmer and two lead engineers for certain module develpment of Win7.
6) GE, 5 engineers from my class, 2 PHd 
7) Cisco, 6 engineers from my class !!!!


Above i have mentioned are all electrical engineers from my class i am aware of working in US. u want more details ?


what i am saying is by volume pakistanis might be small, nevertheless they are there...


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## ironman

Silent hawk, excellent thread . Here is some more info on RABTA

Official webpage and Brochure:

Advanced Engineering Research Organization

http://www.aero.com.pk/images/AERO-BROCHURE-1.pdf


AERO-1.jpg (image)

AERO-2.jpg (image)

AERO-3.jpg (image)

AERO-4.jpg (image)

AERO-5.jpg (image)

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## humza_313

India Rising said:


> sorry, off topic but i have to do it man !!!



i wish i had time to explain in much more detail but it is gonna be quite a tough job..! kindly just do me a favour .. go to wikipedia and search fom usaf gen chuck yeager's remarks and sightings in both the wars..! also check his accounts for indian aircraft wrecks discovered..! the wrecks usually numbered the total amount of the aircraft that paf had in 1965.>! we had 132 fighters compared to ur 800..! and in 1971 we had nearly 300 compared to ur 1000 (not including the 300 reserves)..! the indians claimed of destroying a hundred sabres..!@ even though we only had 120..! later in 1967, when iaf acm arjan singh visited pak..! we arranged a flypast and flew a total of 88 sabres..! (not counting the 14 in east pak)..! the indian dignitaries who were sure of thier numbers were pretty much embaressed.>! they same counts for 71 war.>! but there is one thing significant..>! you ex -am brijpal sikand..! who foolishly landed his gnat at a paf base to surrender,,! what more misery can u suffer,..>! the only war trophy u had wre a couple of tanks and passenger buses.... but a fighter for a war trophy ..! ....! then we should reopen the chapter of air assaults in kargil 99..! the paf ddnt lost a single fighter compared to ur mig-21, mig-27 and su-25..! 

I HOPE U ARE SATISFIED AFTER READING THIS..! sorry i couldnt explain in detail..!


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## humza_313

i hope this pleases u..! the most common image found on google..! DONT HAVE TIME TO UPLOAD ALL..! it will take days.>!


----------



## notorious_eagle

lionheart1 said:


> sir i had lot of respect for your post but this post is totally fun boy type ( un expected from you atleast) . some clarification
> firstly government of India will take decision on surgical strike not IAF, there was a talk about american (bush ) was considering targeting LET camp in pakistan , it didnt happen meens US is weak
> do you rally think that pakistan has capability to target India with your airforce agaist our air-defense. then why this
> 'Pak army no match for India's so we want more nukes' - The Times of India
> here pakistani army means pakistani armed forces, answer me logically if you can



Frankly everyone has a limit, after watching these fanboys derail this wonderful thread with their usual B.S, i reached mine. I am sick and tired of these fanboys coming in and using their usual B.S that SU30MKI, Brahmos, Mirage 2000 are God's gift to the world and simply the best weapons platform. They cannot be defeated because they are operated by the Martian Indian Race, IAF pilots are capable of sustaining 50G's because they are Indian. This sort of B.S by Indian fanboys whom join this forum in massive numbers is honestly getting on my nerves.

GOI will indeed take the decision to strike Pakistan, but GOI and IA High Command are well aware of the fact that India does not has overwhelming superiority against Pakistan to give it a spanking in a conflict. The Americans wanted to calm India down and that is why they did sent Admiral Mullen to Pakistan to convince General Kayani to let IAF strike inside Kashmir. You know what the reply was, General Kayani showed Admiral Mullen a picture of the locked MKI and told him that if this happens again we will shoot down the plane. Nice link, but did it ever occur to you that this statement was made as an excuse to increase Pakistan's nuclear weapons capability. I am surprised you guys are even taking this statement seriously, its the same as Vice ACM Barbora saying that if proper measures are not taken IAF would loose its superiority against PAF. I like to look at the facts on the ground and if i look at the facts on the ground, Pakistan's Armed Forces are positioned quite well to defend themselves against an Indian attack. You forgot to mention the cable where the Americans feel that this Cold Start Doctrine is just a hogwash and Indians cannot pull it off. They wont attack Pakistan even if their is another terrorist attack on India. 

Anyways, enough of derailing the thread. Its suffice to say that both India and Pakistan have excellent radar coverage. PAF is already a net centric warfare organization, PA and PN will also be added to the network grid.


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## humza_313

maverick1977 said:


> We are talking about professionals not anyone heading any firms. i have my class fellows working in following organzation with PHds and masters.
> 
> 1) Google,
> 2) IBM
> 3) DoD federal Us government. PHD heading IPV6 divison for next generation project for US army.
> 4) Intel, two PHD friends.
> 5) Microsoft, 3 of my class fellows, one back end programmer and two lead engineers for certain module develpment of Win7.
> 6) GE, 5 engineers from my class, 2 PHd
> 7) Cisco, 6 engineers from my class !!!!
> 
> 
> Above i have mentioned are all electrical engineers from my class i am aware of working in US. u want more details ?
> 
> 
> what i am saying is by volume pakistanis might be small, nevertheless they are there...



yes i agree with you dude..!
these indians haven't seen anything outside india. 

ibm and intel take plenty of engineers from out top universities every year..

one of my cousins work in cisco and one in ibm..!
cisco has also launched a few professional courses in pakistan to train students..!

i hope these people understand.>!


----------



## humza_313

maverick1977 said:


> We are talking about professionals not anyone heading any firms. i have my class fellows working in following organzation with PHds and masters.
> 
> 1) Google,
> 2) IBM
> 3) DoD federal Us government. PHD heading IPV6 divison for next generation project for US army.
> 4) Intel, two PHD friends.
> 5) Microsoft, 3 of my class fellows, one back end programmer and two lead engineers for certain module develpment of Win7.
> 6) GE, 5 engineers from my class, 2 PHd
> 7) Cisco, 6 engineers from my class !!!!
> 
> 
> Above i have mentioned are all electrical engineers from my class i am aware of working in US. u want more details ?
> 
> 
> what i am saying is by volume pakistanis might be small, neverthelesshttp://www.defence.pk/forums/images/smilies/cute/jhanda.gif they are there...



dont forget the pakistani engineers at TEMPA.>!


----------



## silent hawk

silent hawk said:


> A little tester for those who claim they have know how about C4I systems capable of operating in net centric environments.
> 
> What is the most challenging aspect of designing and developing such systems?



Answer : Integrating voice circuits. Voice requires a latency of less than 300 ms similarly the jitter specifications are also very rigid. I have quite a lot of experience on C4I systems. After looking at the block diagram of IACCS I know exactly where India stands in this domain.

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## Nalwa

humza_313 said:


> yes i agree with you dude..!
> these indians haven't seen anything outside india.
> 
> ibm and intel take plenty of engineers from out top universities every year..
> 
> one of my cousins work in cisco and one in ibm..!
> cisco has also launched a few professional courses in pakistan to train students..!
> 
> i hope these people understand.>!



*Kid, when your students were lining up for jobs in these companies, our professionals were already heading product lines in these companies or starting their own ventures. Google Vinod Dham, Sabeer Bhatia and Vinod Khosla and you will know what I am talking about....*

Just check this link here and you will understand. A bit dated but it will give you a reality check. 

People of Indian origin heading multinationals - ET Slide Shows - Features - The Economic Times

I am not saying Pakistan's students and professionals are not in demand or aren't doing well. They are as smart as any other country's but India, due to its comparatively better education system has a head start. It might not last long though.


----------



## SQ8

silent hawk said:


> Answer : Integrating voice circuits. Voice requires a latency of less than 300 ms similarly the jitter specifications are also very rigid. I have quite a lot of experience on C4I systems. After looking at the block diagram of IACCS I know exactly where India stands in this domain.



I thought that was closer to 125 usec?? :S


----------



## ice_man

Kutt@_Bimar said:


> *Kid, when your students were lining up for jobs in these companies, our professionals were already heading product lines in these companies or starting their own ventures. Google Vinod Dham, Sabeer Bhatia and Vinod Khosla and you will know what I am talking about....*
> 
> Just check this link here and you will understand. A bit dated but it will give you a reality check.
> 
> People of Indian origin heading multinationals - ET Slide Shows - Features - The Economic Times
> 
> I am not saying Pakistan's students and professionals are not in demand or aren't doing well. They are as smart as any other country's but India, due to its comparatively better education system has a head start. It might not last long though.





& having said all this you FORGET the greatest of all business models BCCI BANK!!! which was run by pakistanis and was becoming to powerful for the AMERICANS hence was made to crash. 

let's not even start with how many pakistanis are in IMF or WORLD BANK or CITIBANK and etc. 

education standards don't determine everything at the end of the day

warren buffet 
Bill gates 

all were drop outs! so don't give me this nonsense about oh our people were heading assembly lines!! 


INDIA IS CURRENTLY THE CAPITAL OF OUTSOURCING IN THE WORLD!!! be happy about it live with it.


----------



## Nalwa

ice_man said:


> which was run by pakistanis and was becoming to powerful for the AMERICANS hence was made to crash.


Really? Americans were so jealous of it? What was the worth of its total assets? Can you compare it with world's top banks?



> Let's not even start with how many pakistanis are in IMF or WORLD BANK or CITIBANK and etc.


No please, lets start with that. Tell me how many? I work in a 220 people office in Gurgaon and two of my colleagues are ex-WB employees. 



> education standards don't determine everything at the end of the day
> 
> warren buffet
> Bill gates
> 
> all were drop outs! so don't give me this nonsense about oh our people were heading assembly lines!!


I said product lines. There's a difference you know. And exceptions are always there. Again, I have quoted some names in my previous post. Why dont you give me 2 or 3 similar Pakistani names?




> INDIA IS CURRENTLY THE CAPITAL OF OUTSOURCING IN THE WORLD!!! be happy about it live with it.



At least we are seen as the 'capital' of something 'positive' for the global economy. And outsourcing is what you associate India with, you clearly have to learn a lot of India.

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## paritosh

santro said:


> Our Integrated command and control system went operation back in the 90's..now its upgraded..
> The AF has a new network now as well..compatible with the Army's new network that will come online in about two years..
> So yes we do
> Yes we do..
> We just dont put it on wiki for show and tell.



in the 90s?
The other guy pointed out exact figures down to the bandwidth that the indian system is capable of communicating with and you zero down to an entire decade?
Upgraded from what to what?
Wiki is being used by everyone everywhere...if there is something amiss...do point out...and where exactly do you upload your military facts and figures?on PDF?


----------



## paritosh

santro said:


> really?.. they freely roamed the skies..
> Were they surrendering or something?
> 
> Bomb?.. id love to see how they would have managed that?..
> And there were NO mirages..there were Su-30's on a probing mission..with their famed israeli jammers..
> and were met right at the border..by interceptors..locked on..tailed in..but the ROE's did not allow for engagement.
> In other words..they are alive because we wanted a diplomatic solution to the crises...they are alive because the GoI had saner heads prevailing..



You are fighting speculation with speculation...or maybe we missed the trustworthy-non-wiki-reliable-neutral-unbiased article that said such and such happened...


----------



## paritosh

silent hawk said:


> PAF C4I system already posted in post below
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/82343-paf-vs-iaf-command-control-systems-5.html#post1303685
> 
> Pakistan is quite advanced in this field besides the system given in the thread above a c4I system has also been developed by Air Weapon Complex Pakistan. Details of this system are available in the following thread.
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/30580-c4i-air-defense-automation-system.html
> 
> Pakistan infact is so advance in this field that it was selling C4I systems as far back as 2005.



this article talks about how this particular system was sold to BD...
some details on it's capacity would be helpful...and can we not have links to threads??as it gets very cumbersome to locate relevent specs...you can re-post from the same threads but abeit in a concise manner...


----------



## ice_man

*Bank of Credit and Commerce International (BCCI) was a major international bank founded in 1972 by Agha Hasan Abedi, a Pakistani financier. [1] The Bank was registered in Luxembourg with head offices in Karachi and London. Within a decade BCCI touched its peak. It operated in 78 countries, had over 400 branches, and had assets in excess of US$20 billion, making it the 7th largest private bank in the world by assets.*

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## paritosh

silent hawk said:


> Answer : Integrating voice circuits. Voice requires a latency of less than 300 ms similarly the jitter specifications are also very rigid. I have quite a lot of experience on C4I systems. *After looking at the block diagram of IACCS I know exactly where India stands in this domain.*



because you said so??
please share your immense knowledge with us so that we can sustain logic in this thread.


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## paritosh

silent hawk said:


> *Thanks Now I am convinced that India is behind Pakistan in C4I systems*



what is that supposed to mean?this is a public forum for god's sake...brain farts do not constitue an argument!
If you happen to know something that the rest of the duniya doesn't...share it and shut them up.


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## Nalwa

ice_man said:


> *Bank of Credit and Commerce International (BCCI) was a major international bank founded in 1972 by Agha Hasan Abedi, a Pakistani financier. [1] The Bank was registered in Luxembourg with head offices in Karachi and London. Within a decade BCCI touched its peak. It operated in 78 countries, had over 400 branches, and had assets in excess of US$20 billion, making it the 7th largest private bank in the world by assets.*



You know, that wasn't very smart. You really shouldnt have quoted Wiki. If you believe in what you have posted then you'd also believe the next section in Wiki. Please read the section in bold carefully and remember it the next time to sings paeans to the Bank.



> The Bank of Credit and Commerce International (BCCI) was a major international bank founded in 1972 by Agha Hasan Abedi, a Pakistani financier. [1] The Bank was registered in Luxembourg with head offices in Karachi and London. Within a decade BCCI touched its peak. It operated in 78 countries, had over 400 branches, and had assets in excess of US$20 billion, making it the 7th largest private bank in the world by assets.[2][3]
> 
> *It was transformed by Pakistani ISI into "the biggest clandestine money network in history."*
> The US intelligence agencies used BCCI to funnel drug money to Afghan Mujahideen in their fight against Soviet invasion and to terrorists such as Nicaraguan Contras. After the decline of Soviet Empire when the US no longer needed to fund the Afghan Mujahideen, in the late 1980's BCCI became the target of a two-year undercover operation conducted by the US Customs Service. *This operation concluded with a fake wedding that was attended by BCCI officers and drug dealers from around the world who had established a personal friendship and working relationship with undercover Special Agent Robert Mazur. After a six month trial in Tampa, key bank officers were convicted and received lengthy prison sentences. Bank officers began cooperating with law enforcement authorities and that cooperation caused BCCIs many crimes to be revealed.*
> BCCI came under the scrutiny of regulatory bodies and intelligence agencies in the 1980s due to its perceived avoidance of falling under one regulatory banking authority, a fact that was later, after extensive investigations, proven to be false. BCCI became the focus of a massive regulatory battle in 1991 and on July 5 of that year customs and bank regulators in seven countries raided and locked down records of its branch offices.[4]



*So you were saying...?*

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## lionheart1

notorious_eagle said:


> Frankly everyone has a limit, after watching these fanboys derail this wonderful thread with their usual B.S, i reached mine. I am sick and tired of these fanboys coming in and using their usual B.S that SU30MKI, Brahmos, Mirage 2000 are God's gift to the world and simply the best weapons platform. They cannot be defeated because they are operated by the Martian Indian Race, IAF pilots are capable of sustaining 50G's because they are Indian. This sort of B.S by Indian fanboys whom join this forum in massive numbers is honestly getting on my nerves.
> 
> GOI will indeed take the decision to strike Pakistan, but GOI and IA High Command are well aware of the fact that India does not has overwhelming superiority against Pakistan to give it a spanking in a conflict. The Americans wanted to calm India down and that is why they did sent Admiral Mullen to Pakistan to convince General Kayani to let IAF strike inside Kashmir. You know what the reply was, General Kayani showed Admiral Mullen a picture of the locked MKI and told him that if this happens again we will shoot down the plane. Nice link, but did it ever occur to you that this statement was made as an excuse to increase Pakistan's nuclear weapons capability. I am surprised you guys are even taking this statement seriously, its the same as Vice ACM Barbora saying that if proper measures are not taken IAF would loose its superiority against PAF. I like to look at the facts on the ground and if i look at the facts on the ground, Pakistan's Armed Forces are positioned quite well to defend themselves against an Indian attack. You forgot to mention the cable where the Americans feel that this Cold Start Doctrine is just a hogwash and Indians cannot pull it off. They wont attack Pakistan even if their is another terrorist attack on India.
> 
> Anyways, enough of derailing the thread. Its suffice to say that both India and Pakistan have excellent radar coverage. PAF is already a net centric warfare organization, PA and PN will also be added to the network grid.



I respect your view but i differ from your, yes pakistan have capability to defend there country (but the function of any military is to defend there country).please show me any link in any Indian has said that indian can take 50g . please provide me link for su-30 mki looked by paf, (by which plane). frankly speaking we our capability and you know what is your capability. we do what is good for us and you do what is good for you...no need to argue in the blind


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## SQ8

paritosh said:


> You are fighting speculation with speculation...or maybe we missed the trustworthy-non-wiki-reliable-neutral-unbiased article that said such and such happened...



So if I just lost a tooth yesterday.. din put that on facebook..
since its not there.. nobody heard about it..except me and my family members..should it be denied it ever happened..whether my tooth broke, fell off.. or even existed?..

As for the system..
Im typing excerpts from the freely available and public book I mentioned.. if that is not unbiased and "reliable" for you.. then please feel free to disagree but let those who know more about it.through both *professional* and *personal* contacts discuss what they know... we do reside in Pakistan..this is our country.. there is high probability we know about its happenings a teeny bit more than all that is on the internet.

FROM "Pakistan Air force; A new dawn".
typed word for word..without permission.

"In April 2001 ..the then CAS, the late Mushaf Ali Mir, started the indigenous upgrade of the PAF's air defense system known as special project 1. Until then it had compromised of an automated network of Siemens Low level air control systems(SILLACS) and Hughes Sector operational Control/Operational control centre(SOC/OCC) Systems.
The late Air Cdre Hamid Shigri was designated as the chief project director (CPD); but was sadly killed in a road accident in 2006. Under his direction, an indigenous solution was developed to replace and upgrade the PAF's ageing C4I network, which was eventually achieved by using commercial off the shelf (COTS) technologies,...
....The first prototype mission control center was handed over in January 2003 and pronounced ready for operation by ACM Mushaf .....The onset of network centricity led to the evolution of the General Mission control centres(GMCCs).."

This book was finalized at the end of 2008...

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## silent hawk

paritosh said:


> because you said so??
> please share your immense knowledge with us so that we can sustain logic in this thread.



Actually I am learning that the best way to sustain logic is not to share. Sharing only makes fanboys flood decent threads with ilogical and rude posts

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## silent hawk

I will try to be logical and soon you shall see Indian Fanboys go amock

India has Wiki Links to all there systems. Extensive details of highly confidential systems like Space Program, Space Command and Control System, Satellites etc.

However there are no Wikilinks for active Indian C4I systems. This proves that India has no such system at present.


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## paritosh

santro said:


> So if I just lost a tooth yesterday.. din put that on facebook..
> since its not there.. nobody heard about it..except me and my family members..should it be denied it ever happened..whether my tooth broke, fell off.. or even existed?..


I can never be persuasively intruiged about the well-being of your ENT..and I am certain that it would never be a matter of national and international interest and that you do not put such lame fb status messages...


> As for the system..
> Im typing excerpts from the freely available and public book I mentioned.. if that is not unbiased and "reliable" for you.. then please feel free to disagree but let those who know more about it.through both *professional* and *personal* contacts discuss what they know... we do reside in Pakistan..this is our country.. there is high probability we know about its happenings a teeny bit more than all that is on the internet.
> 
> FROM "Pakistan Air force; A new dawn".
> typed word for word..without permission.
> 
> "In April 2001 ..the then CAS, the late Mushaf Ali Mir, started the indigenous upgrade of the PAF's air defense system known as special project 1. Until then it had compromised of an automated network of Siemens Low level air control systems(SILLACS) and Hughes Sector operational Control/Operational control centre(SOC/OCC) Systems.
> The late Air Cdre Hamid Shigri was designated as the chief project director (CPD); but was sadly killed in a road accident in 2006. Under his direction, an indigenous solution was developed to replace and upgrade the PAF's ageing C4I network, which was eventually achieved by using commercial off the shelf (COTS) technologies,...
> ....The first prototype mission control center was handed over in January 2003 and pronounced ready for operation by ACM Mushaf .....The onset of network centricity led to the evolution of the General Mission control centres(GMCCs).."
> 
> This book was finalized at the end of 2008...



As for the system...well I admit that I am no authority as far as C4I systems of the armies of the world are concerned...but I try to analyze this and that every now and then...
your excerpt talks about the fabled upgradation...but it still wanders around vagueness...you know that comaparisions can't be made out of all that you and your compatriots have posted...
why don't we get to see a nice little block diagram...the sorts of which we have used to illustrate our point??

One more question...
We all agree in unision that Pakistan faces a bigger enemy in us....an enemy it might find difficult to contain...and hence you like brandishing your nuke option every now and then...to maintain peace as you guys put it...so why is every other superior armament not discussed???you would not have a problem with increased leverage against us would you?
if your reply would be that it is in secrecy that you guys find an edge...then it'd not make much sense...as you guys are buying off-the-shelf American and French systems...things that can be bought by friend and foe alike for the money...
so why dont you come out with clear details to thwart an attempted agression by your arch-nemesis to maintain peace?
cus everybody else seems to be doing that....even the intensivley secretive countries like Israel,Iran and China...NKorea too....


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## Ammyy

silent hawk said:


> I will try to be logical and soon you shall see Indian Fanboys go amock
> 
> India has Wiki Links to all there systems. Extensive details of highly confidential systems like Space Program, Space Command and Control System, Satellites etc.
> 
> However there are no Wikilinks for active Indian C4I systems. This proves that India has no such system at present.




If seems like you are biggest troll in this thread 

Without any back support just declare this system is batter than other 

And if any one post any thing batter then this thread become informational thread for you not a vs thread ...... good logic


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## silent hawk

It has begun


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## SQ8

paritosh said:


> I can never be persuasively intruiged about the well-being of your ENT..and I am certain that it would never be a matter of national and international interest and that you do not put such lame fb status messages...
> 
> 
> As for the system...well I admit that I am no authority as far as C4I systems of the armies of the world are concerned...but I try to analyze this and that every now and then...
> your excerpt talks about the fabled upgradation...but it still wanders around vagueness...you know that comaparisions can't be made out of all that you and your compatriots have posted...
> why don't we get to see a nice little block diagram...the sorts of which we have used to illustrate our point??
> 
> One more question...
> We all agree in unision that Pakistan faces a bigger enemy in us....an enemy it might find difficult to contain...and hence you like brandishing your nuke option every now and then...to maintain peace as you guys put it...so why is every other superior armament not discussed???you would not have a problem with increased leverage against us would you?
> if your reply would be that it is in secrecy that you guys find an edge...then it'd not make much sense...as you guys are buying off-the-shelf American and French systems...things that can be bought by friend and foe alike for the money...
> so why dont you come out with clear details to thwart an attempted agression by your arch-nemesis to maintain peace?
> cus everybody else seems to be doing that....even the intensivley secretive countries like Israel,Iran and China...NKorea too....



So in other words..
All Pakistani equipment is either french or American..nothing else?..nobody else sells us anything.. and we are utterly incapable of building even a needle ourselves???
No other nation.. no local system.. no licensed production..
If I am to draw a conclusion.. then Israel's Nuclear program should not even exist since they don't publicity declare any details on it... or show receipts of purchase..
That the whistle blower on the program was a complete liar and if Israel truly wanted to dominate the Arabs it should just come public with its programs?
Do you think the whole idea of our military is to constantly show "we are better" in the media?
that in turn everybody in Pakistan should go on a collective spree showing everything that they have that is better than India.. no secrets..to somehow ridicule... deride.. and keep a constant condescending attitude to Indians?..A constant fear of utter destruction should haunt all Indian planners?
That hypothetically the minute Pakistan starts on a neutron bomb program they should announce it?
MK-ULTRA should have come out instantly after all the tests were done by the CIA..
The Russians should have told the brits that they were stealing metallurgical secrets while visiting the rolls royce factory?
If that is your definition of capability..then by all means.. India is light years ahead of Pakistan...I concede defeat.
This highly "logical" argument is beyond my experience.

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## paritosh

silent hawk said:


> I will try to be logical and soon you shall see Indian Fanboys go amock
> 
> India has Wiki Links to all there systems. Extensive details of highly confidential systems like Space Program, Space Command and Control System, Satellites etc.
> 
> *However there are no Wikilinks for active Indian C4I systems. This proves that India has no such system at present. *



Honestly tell me is that why you believe we lack in C4I systems because there have not been any wikileaks about them?
Do you choose to
a)accept the findings of wikileaks about all the other mentioned Indian programs?
b)believe in the complete absence of any ther research or presence of any other program not covered in the wikileaks?

you are dismissing link after link..
The block diagrams and structural illustrations posted earlier were open to discussion...
How can it be that a country running space missions from it's command centres linking and operating 100s of satellites...planning it's own local positioning system...not be able to put forth a C4I system the integral components of which are readily available..both interanationally and indigenously?
does it not seem absurd?

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## paritosh

santro said:


> So in other words..
> All Pakistani equipment is either french or American..nothing else?..nobody else sells us anything.. and we are utterly incapable of building even a needle ourselves???


ok...what is the average number of tests a pakistani ballistic missile goes through before it gets inducted??
how many pakistani missiles failed a launch during it's testing?
what are the key pakistani components in jf-17?
how does a country which has never ever produced so much as a satellite launch vehicle or a re-entry probe or a super-computer dream of possessing a MIRV?
what is the Pakistani input in AL-khalid?
answer these questions...if you have similar questions about our defense porducts...both failed and otherwise...by all means ask..and i will give you a figure more precise and exact than yours....
whatever you cant answer is open for speculation...


> No other nation.. no local system.. no licensed production..
> If I am to draw a conclusion.. then Israel's Nuclear program should not even exist since they don't publicity declare any details on it... or show receipts of purchase..
> That the whistle blower on the program was a complete liar and if Israel truly wanted to dominate the Arabs it should just come public with its programs?


You are forcing this to become off-topic...
what happens when a country tests nukes?dont you remember our case?
Israel needs whatever little foreign sympathy it can get...and isn't Israel sufficiently public about it's programs?is there any country barring Turkey that can hold Israel in the mid-east and get a decisive victory with at least all the known programs Israel already has or has embarked on...?


> Do you think the whole idea of our military is to constantly show "we are better" in the media?


for a country caught in a soup like Pakistan it is...as you always potray...when you can adopt beliefs such as that your men are martially superior and natural fighters...and that each of our soldier is worth 10 of ours...I think you do... 


> that in turn everybody in Pakistan should go on a collective spree showing everything that they have that is better than India.. no secrets..to somehow ridicule... deride.. and keep a constant condescending attitude to Indians?..A constant fear of utter destruction should haunt all Indian planners?


You need to be fairly confident to come out saying that you have something better...but more than confident you need to put forth facts and figures....for no body buys your argument if you cant.


> That hypothetically the minute Pakistan starts on a neutron bomb program they should announce it?


Pakistan's case is like Britains when it kept on bluffing about having a nuclear bomb and using it against Germany when it was being bombarded with V2 rockets...(not denying that you have nukes)
you are twisting words...announcing that you are developing something is stupid unless you dont have it sitting pretty in your lap...
once you have it...you surely need to brandish it to prevent being overrun in a fatal one on one with a bigger enemy...
dont we all remember how mushrraf talked about using the nuke option during the stand-off after the parliamentary attacks??
He being the president and the COAS did not put too much hope in the conventional nature of warfare did he??
that did bring in bad vibes from all over the world...as we had an explicit no first-use policy...
so the bewildering thing is...why does pakistan choose to keep it's better and superior tech only for the chatter and does not even produce the filmsiest of backing required for it to hold ground?while it openly seeks to use the nuke option in spite ofhaving what not?
why does it also not prove that it has a better communications and C4I system in place to deter the enemy?Every body would understand if it is all indigenous...hell you'd get points for that...cus so far there is not one thing that comes to my mind that you guys have produce which does not exist anywhere else...forget the super-duper neutron bomb...


> MK-ULTRA should have come out instantly after all the tests were done by the CIA..


why do you scale-up to being in the same state as America??
the case of Pakistan is a lot different...do I need to tell you that?
pitted against a bigger enemy...you need non-measurable edges like in efficiency...measurable ones in quality of systems....
an sane person...military or otherwise would agree that it is the prevention of war that is more important than the actual fighting itself...a thousand things can go wrong...logistic failure has defeated more armies than any other form of opposition...that is the exact reason china tests A-SAT weapons...the exact reason...USA maintains a well-known anti-missile shield program...and embarked on the star wars mother of all projects...provides yeilds of all it's conventional bombs...the exact reason why the Germans...the brits...the ruskies do not shy away from their good weapon systems...
do you believe when the Iranians say that they are in advanced stages of getting themselves a 5th gen fighter???


> The Russians should have told the brits that they were stealing metallurgical secrets while visiting the rolls royce factory?
> If that is your definition of capability..then by all means.. India is light years ahead of Pakistan...I concede defeat.


alright...so now you bring in espionage....dude this is not going anywhere...I have liked your posts...I even posted that you should be made a moderator or something...but this is gonig in circles...
Is there nothing to prove that the Pakistani C4I system is better than Indias?

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## Rafi

PAF has all of its bases connected by fiber optic link, it has nodes that allow it to remain networked even if one node is taken out.


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## India Rising

Rafi said:


> PAF has all of its bases connected by fiber optic link, it has nodes that allow it to remain networked even if one node is taken out.


...even Bharti BTSOL (airtel subsidiary )have these.. all around india with backup..what the big fuss...?

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## justanobserver

India Rising said:


> ...even Bharti BTSOL (airtel subsidiary )have these.. all around india with backup..what the big fuss...?



My engineering college (and its branches) have it too


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## Ammyy

India Rising said:


> ...even Bharti BTSOL (airtel subsidiary )have these.. all around india with backup..what the big fuss...?





justanobserver said:


> My engineering college (and its branches) have it too



I am also surprised when Rafi post that ....... Yar even BSNL using fiber cables in all their MSCs 

In 2005 during my vocational training learn about Fiber cable in BSNL MSC


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## mehboobkz

*A.K. ANTONY*





Hon. Minister of Defence India:
_C4I2 is an important component for achieving Information Superiority - an absolute essential war winning factor. Our nation maintains a significant advantage in the development of information based technologies. This must be optimised for our defence requirements._


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## SQ8

paritosh said:


> ok...what is the average number of tests a pakistani ballistic missile goes through before it gets inducted??
> how many pakistani missiles failed a launch during it's testing?
> what are the key pakistani components in jf-17?
> how does a country which has never ever produced so much as a satellite launch vehicle or a re-entry probe or a super-computer dream of possessing a MIRV?
> what is the Pakistani input in AL-khalid?
> answer these questions...if you have similar questions about our defense porducts...both failed and otherwise...by all means ask..and i will give you a figure more precise and exact than yours....
> whatever you cant answer is open for speculation...
> 
> You are forcing this to become off-topic...
> what happens when a country tests nukes?dont you remember our case?
> Israel needs whatever little foreign sympathy it can get...and isn't Israel sufficiently public about it's programs?is there any country barring Turkey that can hold Israel in the mid-east and get a decisive victory with at least all the known programs Israel already has or has embarked on...?
> 
> for a country caught in a soup like Pakistan it is...as you always potray...when you can adopt beliefs such as that your men are martially superior and natural fighters...and that each of our soldier is worth 10 of ours...I think you do...
> 
> You need to be fairly confident to come out saying that you have something better...but more than confident you need to put forth facts and figures....for no body buys your argument if you cant.
> 
> Pakistan's case is like Britains when it kept on bluffing about having a nuclear bomb and using it against Germany when it was being bombarded with V2 rockets...(not denying that you have nukes)
> you are twisting words...announcing that you are developing something is stupid unless you dont have it sitting pretty in your lap...
> once you have it...you surely need to brandish it to prevent being overrun in a fatal one on one with a bigger enemy...
> dont we all remember how mushrraf talked about using the nuke option during the stand-off after the parliamentary attacks??
> He being the president and the COAS did not put too much hope in the conventional nature of warfare did he??
> that did bring in bad vibes from all over the world...as we had an explicit no first-use policy...
> so the bewildering thing is...why does pakistan choose to keep it's better and superior tech only for the chatter and does not even produce the filmsiest of backing required for it to hold ground?while it openly seeks to use the nuke option in spite ofhaving what not?
> why does it also not prove that it has a better communications and C4I system in place to deter the enemy?Every body would understand if it is all indigenous...hell you'd get points for that...cus so far there is not one thing that comes to my mind that you guys have produce which does not exist anywhere else...forget the super-duper neutron bomb...
> 
> why do you scale-up to being in the same state as America??
> the case of Pakistan is a lot different...do I need to tell you that?
> pitted against a bigger enemy...you need non-measurable edges like in efficiency...measurable ones in quality of systems....
> an sane person...military or otherwise would agree that it is the prevention of war that is more important than the actual fighting itself...a thousand things can go wrong...logistic failure has defeated more armies than any other form of opposition...that is the exact reason china tests A-SAT weapons...the exact reason...USA maintains a well-known anti-missile shield program...and embarked on the star wars mother of all projects...provides yeilds of all it's conventional bombs...the exact reason why the Germans...the brits...the ruskies do not shy away from their good weapon systems...
> do you believe when the Iranians say that they are in advanced stages of getting themselves a 5th gen fighter???
> 
> alright...so now you bring in espionage....dude this is not going anywhere...I have liked your posts...I even posted that you should be made a moderator or something...but this is gonig in circles...
> Is there nothing to prove that the Pakistani C4I system is better than Indias?



I wonder if I am dragging this into a off topic debate or you are..
Martial races.. where the **** did I ever mention Martial races.. or race superiority or martians..

Now..
for the answeres to your first paragraph..
its Two tests.. however..not neccecarily of the same missile..but the same engine configuration.
Ignore the Ghauri.. its the North Korean Nodong..
the Shaheen was developed using a baseline engine from the Hatf series..Chinese input from M-11 missiles.
the guidance system on it.. was designed in house by NDC.
The shaheen engine was tested back in 99 in flight.. along with the first guidance system..
Nobody expected the thing to blow the target flag out of the circle.. let alone even make it to the circle.. it did.
Next test verified a newer guidance system.. refined engine..and slight changes in stage size...
At the same time.. low rate production started...
But since I heard this by word of mouth...you wont believe it...okay.np

There is Pakistani input in the design process of the JF-17..with aerodynamics.. electronics.. systems engineers..along with pilots.
half of the Jf-17 design team in 2003 was sourced from Pakistan.
But since they arent a "component" in the strict sense of the word..
You dont have to believe me.. okay..np

could you please tell me..how super computers are absolutely necessary in MIRV design.. is it impossible without it?
In any case.. Suparco has on occasion outsourced to the Chinese academy for time on their machine...is that worth publishing....on the internet?Isnt it possible for NDC to do the same? no.. so you dont have to believe me..okay.np

the solid state auto loader system for the Al-khalid..was designed by my company.. The systems integration..was done in house and by a private company outsourced to by HIT and a University group.
But that's ok.. Its not on the internet.. you dont have to believe me.

We cant do anything on our own.. since its not on the internet.. scanned or in article form otherwise.. you dont have to believe a thing.

Now..
How do you brandish a C4I system?
Now.. lets assume.. that the pretty scans I just saw are of an operational system.. in that case.. you just gave your enemies the idea that you are pulling ahead.. they panic..they push more into their programs.. they put more money into competing with you here.. or in another weapon system..
You find out.. you feel set back.. you spend more.. the other guy.. who cannot keep up on this linear approach.. decided to upgrade his non-conventional arsenal.. do you see the pattern here..its called an arms race..we have been at it... for over...lets see.. 65 years or so??
Would you rather slow it down.. or speed it up..
Is it better to be satisfied with being better by the knowledge of having extremely high tech systems.. or by knowing all of that.. and knowing that the other guy is now more insecure because of it and is making more nukes??

To answer your second last paragraph.. 
Have you ever heard of Operational security?.. its not only nations that practice it.. Apple..Microsoft.. all do it in some form.
Do you know everything there is to know about the F-22.. as you say the Americans publish everything?
Do I know everything about the Akash?.. down to the underlying scan rate?.. weaknesses?
recently a very decorated USAF F-22 pilot.. was forced to retire.. after he mistakenly posted some details on the internet which..although were not classified as such.. deemed to endanger US OPSEC.. there was even a presentation which I posted earlier made just for this incident by the USAF..even though.. there is very little chance he was talking to any internet spies.or that most would not have been able to get that data..say in five years or so.

Now.. am I even comparable to that person's professional exp and reputation.. far from it.. 
But if I know something.. whether its within my organization.. or by indirect reference.. should I blurt it all out..maybe.. or should I exercise caution. Just in case.
And that goes not just for me.. 
there are other members who are privy to info.. some say it openly...its their judgment call.. they know better. If I feel comfortable sharing a certain detail.. Ill do it...if not..you are more than welcome to be a skeptic.
There are other more knowledgeable members in their respective fields who post liberally..and with considerable detail.. but Whatever they post.. is everything that is freely available as collectible information on the internet. If tomorrow I find that okay.. look...there is that new purchase I heard about talking to my colleague.. on that website.. hey..lets talk about it.
But if I am having a chat with a senior in my organization..and he mentions something but says please do not mention it to anybody yet..I feel it best not to...it may something very trivial.. no james bond stuff.. but I can exercise the right to abstain from talking about it.
Should steve jobs have revealed everything about the iphone 4 after that prototype was lost and found?.. what if the iphone was not up to the hype..what if it spurred nokia to make a better competitor after knowing what it would be facing?

Now..for the record..I dont state ANYwhere that the IAF C4I is obsolete.. useless etc...please point out the post where I did do that.
In my opinion all that data published on wikipedia is on operational systems which are in the process of having their replacement or upgrade being developed..which DRDO has possibly not even disclosed.
My contention is however.. with your countrymen.. who refuse to believe that we can keep up with you.. or at least make comparable..even if not better systems..
You of all are familiar with me from the start..
You have seen my posts at the beginning and their tone..
and now..
Wonder what caused the change..?

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## humza_313

Kutt@_Bimar said:


> *Kid, when your students were lining up for jobs in these companies, our professionals were already heading product lines in these companies or starting their own ventures. Google Vinod Dham, Sabeer Bhatia and Vinod Khosla and you will know what I am talking about....*
> 
> Just check this link here and you will understand. A bit dated but it will give you a reality check.
> 
> People of Indian origin heading multinationals - ET Slide Shows - Features - The Economic Times
> 
> I am not saying Pakistan's students and professionals are not in demand or aren't doing well. They are as smart as any other country's but India, due to its comparatively better education system has a head start. It might not last long though.



well sir...! 
whatever you have said isn't enough..! the so called companies that you think indians work in and the poor pakistani students waiting in line..>! id just like to say...! BUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

You will find a pakistani in every part of the world working for professional companies..!

the only difference is that the indians are in a greater number beacuse you people have no control over your population..! just keep on multiplying like bacteria..!~

but i think we have really gone way off-topic and lets not continue.>!


----------



## silent hawk

*COMPARISION OF PAKISTAN AND INDIA SATELLITE AND SATELLITE CONTROL SYSTEMS​*
Comming back to the topic. This is the comparision based on data gathered so far

*PAKISTANI SYSTEMS*



Rafi said:


> By the end of 2011, Pakistan plans to replace PAKSAT-1 with a new communication satellite PAKSAT-1R which will be manufactured exclusively for Pakistan. The satellite will support all conventional and modern Fixed Satellite Service (FSS) applications. The satellite will have a total of up to 30 transponders: 18 in Ku-band and 12 in C-band. To ensure high degree of reliability / availability of the system, two (02) fully redundant Satellite Ground Control Stations (SGCS) would be established in Karachi and Lahore, one to act as the Main and the other as Backup respectively.
> 
> This will contribute to our Armed Forces SATCOM abilities





silent hawk said:


> There is relevance. Pakistan for quite some time has been operating a SATCOM system to provide data and voice. At present this system is dependent on foreign satellites. With our own satellite dependency on foreign elements shall be eliminated.





Rafi said:


> After successful launching and operation of BADR series of experimental satellites (BADR-1 and BADR-B) in the 1990s and early 2000s, SUPARCO now plans to launch high resolution remote sensing satellite system (RSSS) to meet the national and international user requirements in the field of satellite imagery.
> 
> A feasibility and system definition study was concluded in January 2007 which recommended the launch of a constellation of Optical and Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR) Satellites to ensure that the domestic and international user requirements are competitively met. In this respect the RFP for RSSS consultancy services was launched in July 2007. Launch of RFP for the manufacturing of the satellite is planned in the third quarter of year 2008.
> 
> RSSS is planned to be a progressive and sustainable program. Initially, SUPARCO plans to launch an optical satellite with payload of 2.5 meter PAN in 700 km sun-synchronous orbit by the end of year 2011, which will be followed by a series of optical and SAR satellites in future. Necessary infrastructure for ground control and image reception and processing is also planned to be setup.





*INDIAN SYSTEMS*



mehboobkz said:


> Past Use of Satellite Imagery by Armed Forces
> 
> Indian Armed Forces have used imagery from ISRO civil satellites since the early 1990s.
> 
> Most civil satellites can be used for military purposes. Someone just has to analyze the data, which is a lot of grunt work. Most militaries use commercially available imagery from satellites. Western analysts have managed to keep track of Chinese missile and nuclear submarine deployment using Google Earth!
> 
> TES
> Imagery from the TES satellite launched in 2001 using PSLV-C3 has been used by the Indian Military. The satellite provides sub 1m resolution in the visual spectrum.
> 
> RISAT-2
> RISAT-2, launched in with an Israeli X-Band SAR has the most advanced surveillance capabilities amongst Indian satellites in orbit. The 300 kg can take 1 m resolution images at night and through clouds.
> 
> Dedicated Military Satellite Program
> 
> DRDO Chief Saraswat's announcement signals India's decision not to be coy about its military satellite program. The shift in policy probably stems from the knowledge that its military satellite program will not attract US sanctions against ISRO as would have happened in the past.
> 
> *&#8220;We are looking at launching one or two satellites every year to fulfill the requirements of all three military formations,&#8221; Saraswat said.*
> 
> *&#8220;Once these satellites are operational, we will be able to see troop movements along the borders,&#8221; he added. &#8220;The key is high-resolution images with precision.*
> 
> &#8220;The army, the navy and the air force have varied requirements, and it won&#8217;t be appropriate to give the numbers.
> 
> "Data and commands can be sent through these satellites to cruise missiles.&#8221;
> 
> The satellites will be developed and launched by ISRO based on requirements projected by the armed forces.
> 
> Communication-Centric Intelligence Satellite (CCI-Sat)
> The satellite is being developed with a budget of Rs 100 crore by theDefense Electronics Research Laboratory (DLRL) under the Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO).
> 
> The existence of the project was revealed on Tuesday, February 2010 by DLRL director G. Bhoopathy.
> 
> *"We are in the process of designing and developing a spacecraft fitted with an intelligent sensor that will pick up conversations and communications across the borders,"* he told reporters in Bangalore before the start of the first international conference on electronic warfare (EWCI 2010).
> 
> *The satellite will feature a Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR) and be used for imaging and communication. It will be capable of detecting conversations and espionage activities in the region.*
> 
> *&#8220;The satellite will orbit Earth at 500 km. and cover hostile regions in the area by passing on surveillance data to intelligence agencies,&#8221;* G. Bhoopathy, DRDL director told AW&ST in November 2010.
> 
> The satellite will be launched in the lower earth orbit &#8212; about 500 km above the earth &#8212; on board the polar satellite launch vehicle (PSLV).
> 
> *The satellite, which will be operational by 2014, will also serve as a test bed for anti-satellite weapon development.*
> 
> *Navy Satellite*
> 
> *A dedicated satellite to facilitating Naval communication and network centric warfare will be launched into geostationary orbit by ISRO in 2010,* Indian Defense Minister, AK Antony announced during Senior Naval Officers Conference in New Delhi on October 22, 2009.
> 
> *The satellite will facilitate networking of IN warships, submarines and aircraft among themselves as well as with operational centres ashore through high-speed data-links, allowing Maritime threats to be detected and shared in real-time to ensure swift reactio*n.
> 
> *The multi-band satellite will weigh 2,330 kg. (5,137 lb.)*,
> 
> The satellite will provide coverage over a 600 x 1,000 nm area of the Indian Ocean Region (IOR), which India considers to be its primary area of responsibility in terms of maritime security.
> 
> The project cost is Rs 950 crore.
> 
> *IAF Satellite*
> 
> The first dedicated IAF satellite is scheduled for launch in FY 2011-12, after the Navy satellite scheduled for launch in FY 2010-11.
> 
> The satellite was initially scheduled to be launched in July 2009, according to a PTI report on November 18, 2008. In early January 2009, the IAF Chief said the IAF satellite will be launched in 2010.
> 
> *According to IAF Chief Fali H. Major, the satellite will serve as the air force's eye in the skies. It will link up the six AWACS that the IAF is acquiring with each other as well as other ground and airbased radars.*





DRDO said:


> *Integrated Space Cell*
> 
> An Integrated Space Cell, which will be jointly operated by all the three services of the Indian armed forces, the civilian Department of Space and the Indian Space Research Organization (ISRO) has been set up to utilize more effectively the country's space-based assets for military purposes and to look into threats to these assets.[7][8] This command will leverage space technology including satellites. Unlike an aerospace command, where the air force controls most of its activities, the Integrated Space Cell envisages cooperation and coordination between the three services as well as civilian agencies dealing with space.[70]
> 
> *India currently has 11 remote sensing satellites in orbit.* Though most are not meant to be dedicated military satellites,* some have a spacial resolution of 1 metre or below which can be also used for military applications.* Noteworthy satellites include the *Technology Experiment Satellite (TES) which has a panchromatic camera (PAN) with a resolution of 1 metre,[71] the RISAT-2 which is capable of imaging in all-weather conditions and has a resolution of one metre,*[72] *the CARTOSAT-2, CARTOSAT-2A[73] (a dedicated military satellite)*[74] and *CARTOSAT-2B[75] which carries a panchromatic camera which has a resolution of 80 centimetres (black and white only).*
> 
> 
> Integrated Space Cell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Indian Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia





The Indians definetly have an edge in this domain. They have been working in this area since 1990 and have satellites, rockets and a Command and Control Centers. 

Pakistan has a SATCOM system in place 

Both countries have comprehensive plans to improve their space programs.

Once again India seems to be focused on Strategic aspects while Pakistan's focus remains on tactical issues.

If I have left any sytems please add them


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## deckingraj

santro said:


> Now..
> How do you brandish a C4I system?
> Now.. lets assume.. *that the pretty scans I just saw are of an operational system.. in that case.. you just gave your enemies the idea that you are pulling ahead.. they panic..they push more into their programs.. they put more money into competing with you here.. or in another weapon system..
> You find out.. you feel set back.. you spend more.. the other guy.. who cannot keep up on this linear approach.. decided to upgrade his non-conventional arsenal.. do you see the pattern here..its called an arms race..we have been at it... for over...lets see.. 65 years or so??*
> Would you rather slow it down.. or speed it up..
> Is it better to be satisfied with being better by the knowledge of having extremely high tech systems.. or by knowing all of that.. and knowing that the other guy is now more insecure because of it and is making more nukes??
> 
> To answer your second last paragraph..
> Have you ever heard of Operational security?.. its not only nations that practice it..



Please do keep in mind that Military estabishments are not dependent on information in Public domain to get to know about their rivals....ISI is not dependent on what is published in TOI and neither Raw on dawn...Paritosh argument is also valid - The reason most of the militaries around the world bring their latest and greatest acquisitions/weapons is to give a message to adversary - Don't dare to think the unthinkable- i will give you a bloody nose....

Let me give you an example - The whole world is specualting about Pakistan ever increasing nuclear arsenal. Pakistan has not acknowledged it but the news is out...right???? Regarding F-22 can you tell me a good enough reason that they did tell about the program??? Yes they will never tell the real strengths of the fighter air-craft but they have boasted a lot about this aircraft. Can there be any doubt that F22 is responsible for T-50 and possible chinese JXX??? Now question should be why the hell they(read US) brought F22 into light???? They could have kept that in dark and bang the enemy with a big surprise, no????

Sir, let me be very candid about it...You can hide the real parameters about a weapon but hiding the entire weapon is not as easy as it sounds....


Also keep in mind that we are not in Arms race with Pakistan. It is opposite, in other words we get more fancy toys and thereafter to maintain parity Pakistan join. So by not declaring something you are not helping Arms race at all...Secondly if you know about this ability and are telling it on public forum then would it be right to say indian establishment is not aware of this(if true)???...In short your point about the arms race is not valid, no???....Anyhow i am not saying that you are wrong but expecting people to believe things just on hear say is not fair either....

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## Ammyy

silent hawk said:


> The Indians definetly have an edge in this domain. They have been working in this area since 1990 and have satellites, rockets and a Command and Control Centers.
> 
> Pakistan has a SATCOM system in place
> 
> Both countries have comprehensive plans to improve their space programs.
> 
> Once again India seems to be focused on Strategic aspects while Pakistan's focus remains on tactical issues.
> 
> If I have left any sytems please add them



*DRDO develops SATCOM datalink for Airborne Early Warning and Control (AEW&C) System *
Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: DRDO develops SATCOM datalink for Airborne Early Warning and Control (AEW&C) System


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## SQ8

deckingraj said:


> Please do keep in mind that Military estabishments are not dependent on information in Public domain to get to know about their rivals....ISI is not dependent on what is published in TOI and neither Raw on dawn...Paritosh argument is also valid - The reason most of the militaries around the world bring their latest and greatest acquisitions/weapons is to give a message to adversary - Don't dare to think the unthinkable- i will give you a bloody nose....
> 
> Let me give you an example - The whole world is specualting about Pakistan ever increasing nuclear arsenal. Pakistan has not acknowledged it but the news is out...right???? Regarding F-22 can you tell me a good enough reason that they did tell about the program??? Yes they will never tell the real strengths of the fighter air-craft but they have boasted a lot about this aircraft. Can there be any doubt that F22 is responsible for T-50 and possible chinese JXX??? Now question should be why the hell they(read US) brought F22 into light???? They could have kept that in dark and bang the enemy with a big surprise, no????
> 
> Sir, let me be very candid about it...You can hide the real parameters about a weapon but hiding the entire weapon is not as easy as it sounds....
> 
> 
> Also keep in mind that we are not in Arms race with Pakistan. It is opposite, in other words we get in more fancy toys out then to maintain parity Pakistan join. So by not declaring something you are not helping Arms race at all...Secondly if you know about this ability and are telling it on public forum then can we say indian establishment is not aware of this(if true)...So the point about arms race is not valid, no???....Anyhow i am not saying that you are wrong but expecting people to believe things just on hear say is not fair either....



I agree on your first argument..
Yet.. if all that is said in wikileaks..quite a bit of it was out.. why the furore over it?
Let me give you an example...
A organization has developed a large scale fingerprint recognition system..for our government. It is a very large project.. for a very large application..
There was a tender for it.. the company won it and now the system was field testing it was put on the website.
http://www.ictrdf.org.pk/fp-mpfrs.htm
http://www.case.edu.pk/AFISAbout.aspx
There is another project in development by the same.. larger than scale in this.. in an advanced stage.. and not just for domestic consumption.
Yet.. there is no proof on the internet for it?
So are they doing it? you look at it without me telling you..
no.. 
But I am telling you ..they are..
that is my point.
The MI or RAW dont need these public sources..but they may use them from time to time. Imagine some overeager DRDO engineer gives out the Hopping freq rate for a new radio on the internet.. its not published by DRDO.. and although. provides trivail help for any potential adversary ..is still a breach of contract...should he not be penalized..will he not be?.. there is a possibility..right?
Sure..89&#37; chance that he is ignored.. 
but there is a 11% his boss calls him up about why a report on him disclosing such details have come to him..possible?

Onto your second one..
lets assume for a while.. Pakistan says that it truly has only 30 nukes..
Would that not spur the hawks in the Indian military..the next time if another incident of terrorism takes place in India.. to not just hit militant camps..but an all out war..in which India would risk a nuclear attack since it can absorb that blow and still operate.
On the other hand.. what if it comes out that we have 500 nukes..
suddenly the whole world is worried what all of those are for..and the current apprehension about them falling into the wrong hands would multiply ten fold.

The F-22 spurred on the T-50.. true..
But the ATF program was very very public.. like its predecessor the F-X..
But what was spurred on by the F-117?
No comparable Russian jet appeared.
What of the Kh-11 recon sat.. which was only rumored to exist until finally acknowledged.
Paritosh mentioned that I should not compare Pakistan to the US.. 
well true..but then dont compare Pakistan's security concerns and dictations for secrecy to the US as well.
Tomorrow.. if the system I am working on is announced.. 
Ill gladly post all the details here...with numbers.
Till then..I cannot.

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## deckingraj

santro said:


> I agree on your first argument..
> Yet.. if all that is said in wikileaks..quite a bit of it was out.. why the furore over it?
> Let me give you an example...
> A organization has developed a large scale fingerprint recognition system..for our government. It is a very large project.. for a very large application..
> There was a tender for it.. the company won it and now the system was field testing it was put on the website.
> .:: CASE: Center For Advance Studies In Engineering ::.
> There is another project in development.. larger than scale in this.. in an advanced stage.. and not just for domestic consumption.
> Yet.. there is no proof on the internet for it?
> 
> So are they doing it? you look at it without me telling you..
> no..
> But I am telling you ..they are..
> that is my point.



Fair enough...and yes saying "whatever is not there on internet is not true" is not correct...The only problem is that what is not on internet and true should be kept that way only...Bringing it out in a public forum will not help because people will ask for proof and we will not be able to provide it...

As said in the previous post, i am not saying that you are wrong(you would have reasons to say what you are) but to be fair with other posters they are right when they are asking you to back up your claims with proof.


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## silent hawk

santro said:


> I agree on your first argument..
> Yet.. if all that is said in wikileaks..quite a bit of it was out.. why the furore over it?
> Let me give you an example...
> A organization has developed a large scale fingerprint recognition system..for our government. It is a very large project.. for a very large application..
> There was a tender for it.. the company won it and now the system was field testing it was put on the website.
> National ICT R&D Fund
> .:: CASE: Center For Advance Studies In Engineering ::.
> There is another project in development by the same.. larger than scale in this.. in an advanced stage.. and not just for domestic consumption.
> Yet.. there is no proof on the internet for it?
> So are they doing it? you look at it without me telling you..
> no..
> But I am telling you ..they are..
> that is my point.
> 
> Onto your second one..
> lets assume for a while.. Pakistan says that it truly has only 30 nukes..
> Would that not spur the hawks in the Indian military..the next time if another incident of terrorism takes place in India.. to not just hit militant camps..but an all out war..in which India would risk a nuclear attack since it can absorb that blow and still operate.
> On the other hand.. what if it comes out that we have 500 nukes..
> suddenly the whole world is worried what all of those are for..and the current apprehension about them falling into the wrong hands would multiply ten fold.
> 
> The F-22 spurred on the T-50.. true..
> But the ATF program was very very public.. like its predecessor the F-X..
> But what was spurred on by the F-117?
> No comparable Russian jet appeared.
> What of the Kh-11 recon sat.. which was only rumored to exist until finally acknowledged.
> Paritosh mentioned that I should not compare Pakistan to the US..
> well true..but then dont compare Pakistan's security concerns and dictations for secrecy to the US as well.
> Tomorrow.. if the system I am working on is announced..
> Ill gladly post all the details here...with numbers.
> Till then..I cannot.



CASE/CARE are also developing some C4I system


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## SQ8

silent hawk said:


> CASE/CARE are also developing some C4I system



Well could you PM me on that?


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## SQ8

deckingraj said:


> Fair enough...and yes saying "whatever is not there on internet is not true" is not correct...The only problem is that what is not on internet and true should be kept that way only...Bringing it out in a public forum will not help because people will ask for proof and we will not be able to provide it...
> 
> As said in the previous post, i am not saying that you are wrong(you would have reasons to say what you are) but to be fair with other posters they are right when they are asking you to back up your claims with proof.



I dont ask them to accept..
I am all for agree to disagree.. 
But then when these less exp posters start with condescending comments.. and resort to low level jabs..
Does it not ruin the whole idea of the thread? Of this whole forum rather?

On another note..
If for example.. 
an automotive engineer(who we are 80&#37; sure is in the automotive indrustry) talks to you about a new car being developed that goes 100km to the liter.. on Air conditioning.
But a construction contractor contradicts him by bringing in thirty articles on fuel consumption..air drag..etc.
would you not be inclined to give the benefit of the doubt to the person whole field it is.. or to the contractor?


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## deckingraj

santro said:


> Onto your second one..
> lets assume for a while.. Pakistan says that it truly has only 30 nukes..
> Would that not spur the hawks in the Indian military..the next time if another incident of terrorism takes place in India.. to not just hit militant camps..but an all out war..in which India would risk a nuclear attack since it can absorb that blow and still operate.
> On the other hand.. what if it comes out that we have 500 nukes..
> suddenly the whole world is worried what all of those are for..and the current apprehension about them falling into the wrong hands would multiply ten fold.



With all due respect sir but i see this argument of yours is simply not correct. Let me share my thought process

- During Kargil Pakistan was a newly created nuclear nation. Surely you would have less number of nukes than 30 at that point. If we did not initiated a full-fledge war at that time then why will we when you have 30??? In short even few nukes can keep the enemy at bay...i don't want to loose mumbai over entire Pakistan...because by destroying Pakistan i don't gain anything but loose a lot by loosing Mumbai. No???

- Look at North Korea. How many nukes do you think they have??? Even after so many provocations there is hardly any war in Korean theater. Do i need to tell you about the number of nukes that US has vs North Korea???

- As said you don't need to announce it. World will not get to know the exact number but they go with their intelligence report. If CIA is saying that pak has around 80 weapons and they are increase there number like anything, this is what US is going to believe in and will act accordingly. In short there are enough indications that you are increasing your arsenal rapidly. Exact numbers don't matter...Estimates will do the job...




> The F-22 spurred on the T-50.. true..
> But the ATF program was very very public.. like its predecessor the F-X..
> But what was spurred on by the F-117?
> No comparable Russian jet appeared.
> What of the Kh-11 recon sat.. which was only rumored to exist until finally acknowledged.


Thanks for putting in the last line. No matter you acknowledge or not your adversary is not going to wait till your acknowledgement before he starts working on the counter...We all know the cash starved Russia post USSR otherwise T-50 is not something that have been drawn from scratch after F-22 was inducted. The plan was there, the idea was there but work had to be stalled due to cash issue...If we look at the history of cold-war both Ruskies and Yankies were churning out state-of-art weapons and counters pretty consistantly....




> Paritosh mentioned that I should not compare Pakistan to the US..


He is right...I was drawing an analogy to say that why countries would like to bring their deadliest weapons in full public glare. The logic is simple - Win the war without fighting it...



> well true..but then dont compare Pakistan's security concerns and dictations for secrecy to the US as well.Tomorrow.. if the system I am working on is announced..
> Ill gladly post all the details here...with numbers.
> Till then..I cannot.



Which is the right thing to do...

Regards


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## deckingraj

santro said:


> But a construction contractor contradicts him by bringing in thirty articles on fuel consumption..air drag..etc.
> would you not be inclined to give the benefit of the doubt to the person whole field it is.. or to the contractor?



Certainly to the person whose field it is...but if the person is talking something which is not usual and is a trade secret then my thinking cap will surely raise some suspicions....


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## silent hawk

santro said:


> Well could you PM me on that?



Not much is known but students studying in there say that there is an entire floor developing some C4I system for army.


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## deckingraj

silent hawk said:


> Not much is known but students studying in there say that there is an entire floor developing some C4I system for army.



No offense but My advice, do not put in names especially when something is being worked upon and intentions are not to disclose it...Mind it i am not saying that RAW or MOSSAD are watching this but it is not ethical to share what you are not supposed to(assuming you have a lot of inside knowledge)

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## silent hawk

Trojan another Pakistani Company Developing C4I systems

Trojans, The cutting edge in technology

The consoles they show are very similar to the consoles shown in PAF calendar.

*What is PAF's Project Vision?*


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## silent hawk

deckingraj said:


> No offense but My advice, do not put in names especially when something is being worked upon and intentions are not to disclose it...Mind it i am not saying that RAW or MOSSAD are watching this but it is not ethical to share what you are not supposed to(assuming you have a lot of inside knowledge)



Point accepted I have removed the names from my post. kindly edit the quote and remove names from your post as well. Thanks


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## SQ8

raj..
does the Us north korea scenario apply even a bit to us?
A little background story from me then just to support what I claim;..My father ran a popular resort property in the vicinity of Murree..at that time ..Kayani was Corp commander kashmir at the time.. Being the only resort property in Pakistan it was frequented by many dignitaries and guests..
i was still a teenager back then..and lived on the property..My father as is expected of all those in the hospitality business had developed good contacts with all the influential guests coming in and going out..and that is where his friendship with some of the people in the right places where it comes to my claim comes in. 
It was routine for my father to invite people back over to our residential suite..since he is an avid fan..of music..(if you were a musician in the 80's..whether Indian or Pakistani..and came to Houston..you knew my father).
and so these late night entertainment/discussions.. tea etc would go on.(no women or wine..sorry).
It was during this time that a PAEC international conference was held..and was preceded by a party/ propaganda event held at the place commemorating chagai..where a model of the mountain was made in the auditorium..a whole display etc etc.. was recreated..with the actual scientists present as chief guests..they gave a briefing on the test.. and even showed an in house video of Shaheen in development and testing..
It was during these times I found out..that we had 60 or so operational warheads with us..and could make more on a short notice if asked.
If it was announced then.. would it have made a difference.. possibly..possibly no.
was it a false figure.. could have been.. but the closed nature of the gathering would make no sense..(I was not there..I was out attending the concert that was taking place..man I miss AWAZ when they were together.. "tu ..meray liyee.. jaadoo ka charag hai )
Would Indian intelligence be aware of it..QUITE likely..


So.. if required.. as I dont like posting names..I can PM you the specifics on people..and the locations..and timings..which I know aren't compromising on anything..but its just something I dont prefer openly.

The reason I posted it..
was to just make the point..that there are others out there.. who have had more experiences than me.. and sometimes they state a number or a fact for the reason simply because that is what their knowledge and exp tells them.

So if the automotive engineer I mentioned gave you a story that fit in his scenario..would your thinking cap consider it?

HOWEVER..
There are many.. posers on the internet.. from everywhere..
some can be very convincing..
so it is always prudent..as I know you all do. to recheck on some facts.. cross check..and it best.. defer to those who are in the field.or the professionals..
There is always the fellow claiming to have built the F-22's radar out of " intense molecular inversion" of "flux capacitors"...

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## humza_313

well lets be realistic guys aprt from using word processors and spread sheets our army is at the moment not gared for a good c41/it system.

i think people here confuse IT and C41 one with word processing. which is not the case.  

the real c41/ it infrstructure is best described by the following keywords

1. Comunicate: to communicate eltronicly during battle fileds without the enmy finding out i.e. encripted anlog and digitial data transfer
.
2. real time operations: i.e. the status of each fighting unit can be assesd realtime where orders are issued and realtime battle information is sent in to hq for appropriate action. 

3. integrate: this is where we realy lack. there seems to be very little or no cordination amongst the arms i.e. airforce navy and army. the army is always striving for airsupport which is now being addresed by buying more combat chopers which will reduce but not ensure the saftey of the ground troops.

my soloution to the problem 
1. airforce******* they r not supperior to the army hence a major emphesis should be put on ordering them to fight less air battles and more CAS battles.
this can be achieved by requiring airforce aircraft pilots to fly a minnumu of 35% - 45% of their total air hours in CAS. 

ARMY: They should wake up and smell the rosesi.e. there is no such thing as a plan without air supprioirty. army units as a compulsory part should require atleast one joint excersie withthe airforce once a year i.e. every unit would be required to do so. 

3. a joint command and infrstructure should be set up so that the airforce may be ordered automaticaly to send in aircraft t support army postions when called upon and the nearest aircraft should automaticaly be ordered to engage the enmy. THE ARMY SHOULD BE MADE AWARE OF AIRCRAFT THEY COULD CALL ON BEFORE THEY GO INTO BATTLE TO ENSURE COMPLET DISTRUCTION OF THE AGGRESSOR.


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## silent hawk

humza_313 said:


> well lets be realistic guys aprt from using word processors and spread sheets our army is at the moment not gared for a good c41/it system.
> 
> i think people here confuse IT and C41 one with word processing. which is not the case.
> 
> the real c41/ it infrstructure is best described by the following keywords
> 
> 1. Comunicate: to communicate eltronicly during battle fileds without the enmy finding out i.e. encripted anlog and digitial data transfer
> .
> 2. real time operations: i.e. the status of each fighting unit can be assesd realtime where orders are issued and realtime battle information is sent in to hq for appropriate action.
> 
> 3. integrate: this is where we realy lack. there seems to be very little or no cordination amongst the arms i.e. airforce navy and army. the army is always striving for airsupport which is now being addresed by buying more combat chopers which will reduce but not ensure the saftey of the ground troops.
> 
> my soloution to the problem
> 1. airforce******* they r not supperior to the army hence a major emphesis should be put on ordering them to fight less air battles and more CAS battles.
> this can be achieved by requiring airforce aircraft pilots to fly a minnumu of 35% - 45% of their total air hours in CAS.
> 
> ARMY: They should wake up and smell the rosesi.e. there is no such thing as a plan without air supprioirty. army units as a compulsory part should require atleast one joint excersie withthe airforce once a year i.e. every unit would be required to do so.
> 
> 3. a joint command and infrstructure should be set up so that the airforce may be ordered automaticaly to send in aircraft t support army postions when called upon and the nearest aircraft should automaticaly be ordered to engage the enmy. THE ARMY SHOULD BE MADE AWARE OF AIRCRAFT THEY COULD CALL ON BEFORE THEY GO INTO BATTLE TO ENSURE COMPLET DISTRUCTION OF THE AGGRESSOR.



Close Air Support missions are those missions which army can undertake on thier own. These sort of missions are a pilots nightmare due to risk of fatricide. They are to be used as a last resort to gain an advantage or re-enforce a weakness. The guiding principle is to use CAS like a reserve. Using it wisely is essential the result of the War will depend on it.

The Airforces preference is to fly interdiction missions. Missions which the army cannot undertake but directly affect the battle.

As far as joint exercises are concerned the recently concluded Azm-e-Nau is a good example.

I don't really understand what you are cribbing about


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## humza_313

silent hawk said:


> Close Air Support missions are those missions which army can undertake on thier own. These sort of missions are a pilots nightmare due to risk of fatricide. They are to be used as a last resort to gain an advantage or re-enforce a weakness. The guiding principle is to use CAS like a reserve. Using it wisely is essential the result of the War will depend on it.
> 
> The Airforces preference is to fly interdiction missions. Missions which the army cannot undertake but directly affect the battle.
> 
> As far as joint exercises are concerned the recently concluded Azm-e-Nau is a good example.
> 
> I don't really understand what you are cribbing about



yes azm-e-nau is a good example..!

it also included a few joint strikes by the paf and amry..! but that does not have anything to do with the c4i systems that are being developed for the army..!


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## silent hawk

humza_313 said:


> yes azm-e-nau is a good example..!
> 
> it also included a few joint strikes by the paf and amry..! but that does not have anything to do with the c4i systems that are being developed for the army..!



Really I heard the system was succesfully trial tested in the exercise.


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## humza_313

silent hawk said:


> Really I heard the system was succesfully trial tested in the exercise.



well i had no idea about that..! but the exercise was great..!
i enjoyed high mark more..! ill search on this testing though..!


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## Ammyy

*IAF wants radars for hilly terrain*

NEW DELHI: IAF now wants a major induction of long-range surveillance radars (LRSRs) and high-power radars (HPRs) to bolster air defence coverage in ''hilly terrain'' in the hinterland as well as along the borders with China and Pakistan.

*This comes after IAF has already inked contracts for 19 LLTRs (low-level transportable radars), four MPRs (medium-power radars) and 30 indigenous medium-range Rohini radars, among others.*

Apart from lightweight mountain radars for high altitude areas, plans are also afoot to procure nine more *Aerostat radars *to add to the two EL/M-2083 Israeli Aerostats inducted earlier as well as two additional Awacs (airborne warning and control systems) to supplement the first three Israeli Phalcon Awacs bought under a $1.1-billion deal.

The overall aim of all this is to ensure Indian airspace, which still has several gaping holes, especially over central and peninsular India, becomes impregnable against hostile aircraft, drones and helicopters.

*As for the LRSRs and HPRs, IAF's global request of information (RFI) says these active aperture phased array radars, which will ''be used for air defence surveillance, command and control in hilly terrain'', should be able to classify large, medium and small aircraft, drones and helicopters at a range of 450 to 600km automatically.*

Though IAF is yet to specify numbers, the procurement is likely to be large since the RFI specifies that the project will involve a ''phased manufacturing programme'' leading to indigenous production under transfer of technology.
With advanced ''electronic counter-counter measures'', the LRSRs and HPRs should also be capable of being integrated into the IACCS (integrated air command and control system).

Read more: IAF wants radars for hilly terrain - The Times of India IAF wants radars for hilly terrain - The Times of India

IAF wants radars for hilly terrain - The Times of India

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## Ammyy

*Indian Air Force to Possess Network Centric Warfare Capability by 2011 says Vice Air Marshal P V Naik*

*India is rapidly moving towards developing network centric warfare (NCW)* capability, Vice Chief of Air Staff Air Marshal P V Naik has said. "NCW is vital. You cannot survive today for long against a good adversary without this capability," said Indian Air Marshal at the Nellis Air Force Base, where IAF is participating in the prestigious Red Flag exercise.

Speaking to journalists after celebrating the Independence Day with Indian airmen, he said the Indian armed forces will have this capability by 2010-2011.

"At present we do not have it, we are just about network enabled. But we are in the process of developing this capability." Pioneered by the United States Department of Defence, NCW relies on computer processing power and networking communications technology to provide shared information of the battle space among armed forces. This shared awareness increases synergy for command and control, resulting in superior decision- making, and the ability to coordinate complex military operations over long distances for an overwhelming war-fighting advantage.

*Providing further details about Indian efforts towards network centricity, Air Marshal Naik said the backbone of this entire system will be a fibre optic-based network called Air Force Network (AFNET), on which will be riding the Integrated Air Command and Control Systems (IACCS). IACCS will provide the connectivity for all the airborne platforms and ground platforms. *

Indian Air Force to Possess Network Centric Warfare Capability by 2011 says Vice Air Marshal P V Naik | India Defence

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## paritosh

santro said:


> I wonder if I am dragging this into a off topic debate or you are..
> Martial races.. where the **** did I ever mention Martial races.. or race superiority or martians..
> 
> Now..
> for the answeres to your first paragraph..
> its Two tests.. however..not neccecarily of the same missile..but the same engine configuration.
> Ignore the Ghauri.. its the North Korean Nodong..
> the Shaheen was developed using a baseline engine from the Hatf series..Chinese input from M-11 missiles.
> the guidance system on it.. was designed in house by NDC.
> The shaheen engine was tested back in 99 in flight.. along with the first guidance system..
> Nobody expected the thing to blow the target flag out of the circle.. let alone even make it to the circle.. it did.
> Next test verified a newer guidance system.. refined engine..and slight changes in stage size...
> At the same time.. low rate production started...
> But since I heard this by word of mouth...you wont believe it...okay.np
> 
> There is Pakistani input in the design process of the JF-17..with aerodynamics.. electronics.. systems engineers..along with pilots.
> half of the Jf-17 design team in 2003 was sourced from Pakistan.
> But since they arent a "component" in the strict sense of the word..
> You dont have to believe me.. okay..np


well the other side of having word-of-mouth specs is that no one can prove you wrong...


> could you please tell me..how super computers are absolutely necessary in MIRV design.. is it impossible without it?
> In any case.. Suparco has on occasion outsourced to the Chinese academy for time on their machine...is that worth publishing....on the internet?Isnt it possible for NDC to do the same? no.. so you dont have to believe me..okay.np


super-computers ease the pain by many degrees...can you not run directx11 on pentium 3?
you need simulations for testing missiles and nuke yields...developing them requires good computing power...but then the Chinese have theirs...so there is no further arguing any thing...you harp on the Chinese capacity...the only factor that remains is their willingness to share it all...definitely not to be found on the internet...and nobody would share their copy of "for-eyes-only" secret tell-all files right?


> the solid state auto loader system for the Al-khalid..was designed by my company.. The systems integration..was done in house and by a private company outsourced to by HIT and a University group.
> But that's ok.. Its not on the internet.. you dont have to believe me.


if the internet is to believed...then it is of a Chinese origin...but I take your word for it...


> We cant do anything on our own.. since its not on the internet.. scanned or in article form otherwise.. you dont have to believe a thing.


Santro...
the merits and demerits of discussing top-secret military tech and it's authenticity is always semi-dubious over forums like this...
people talk about half-baked information readily available from reliable and semi-reliable sources on the net...decide on their authenticity or negotiate and bargain about the true standing of such and such and discuss them...if you have knowledge of a system...you can use the specs to compare your to ours...and not necessarily post pics of you posing with some secret govt doc you were not supposed to know existed...
_my_ believing $h!t is not the point here...this thread's purpose is to compare them systems...now we posted some good info on our system's architecture...your lot dismissed it outright claiming 
a)they know in-depth about our systems and their incapacity...(you somewhere talked about how being a Pakistani you are bound to know a tad more about your systems than us...right...I hope this handicap doesn't extend to the netherworld...)
b)the Pakistani systems are better...about which there is not an iota of technical info available on the information superhighway...

so after a) and b) being raised here...I in all humility am asking you to show me the money on this...so if it is all about my believing something and your not caring to help me with that...then the purpose of this thread is lost on this...
for you appear to be saying..."we have it...don't believe it??f.o!"


> Now..
> How do you brandish a C4I system?
> Now.. lets assume.. that the pretty scans I just saw are of an operational system.. in that case.. you just gave your enemies the idea that you are pulling ahead.. they panic..they push more into their programs.. they put more money into competing with you here.. or in another weapon system..
> You find out.. you feel set back.. you spend more.. the other guy.. who cannot keep up on this linear approach.. decided to upgrade his non-conventional arsenal.. do you see the pattern here..its called an arms race..we have been at it... for over...lets see.. 65 years or so??
> Would you rather slow it down.. or speed it up..
> Is it better to be satisfied with being better by the knowledge of having extremely high tech systems.. or by knowing all of that.. and knowing that the other guy is now more insecure because of it and is making more nukes??


ok...where do I begin???
C4I or logistics support and information exchange is not just a weapon it is the whole machinery....!
The C4I system of a country is specific to it's needs and can not be copied...to another model.it's not a tank or an a/c that can be wielded by most...
your C4I system if sufficiently efficient would let your enemies know that in case of war...your battle-comms would never go down and provide you with a swift edge...it's not a weapon that can be downed...cus we are not asknig the coordinates of your comms centres...
We would want you to believe that our comms lines would be uncluttered and fast...and the flow of info would bedazzle you and your forces...
we would not want you to believe that the su-30s from the lonewala base would be the first ones to attack sialkot...that is giving away military secrets...and suicidal...
so it is not at all about giving the enemies an idea of our war plans or blue-prints..or whadeva...it is just letting them know that we have efficiency running in our fiber-optical veins...it does instill fear...a fear more practical than mutually assured destruction of a thermonuke pis$ fight...
as far as the arms race is concerned...Deckin was spot-on in his post..


> To answer your second last paragraph..
> Have you ever heard of Operational security?.. its not only nations that practice it.. Apple..Microsoft.. all do it in some form.
> Do you know everything there is to know about the F-22.. as you say the Americans publish _*everything*_?


if you start publishing everything...nobody would take a word of it.
the C4I system in our context is one of the most vast systems an army operates...it will go beyond the scope...but we can discuss tiny little specs like the backbone media...its rough tx rate...how are individual systems linked...is it laser tx or radio tx that works for individual systems...most countries do provide these details...while thye might not give you their jamming frequencies...they give you enough to let you know that it is potent.



> But if I know something.. whether its within my organization.. or by indirect reference.. should I blurt it all out..maybe.. or should I exercise caution. Just in case.
> And that goes not just for me..
> there are other members who are privy to info.. some say it openly...its their judgment call.. they know better. If I feel comfortable sharing a certain detail.. Ill do it...if not..you are more than welcome to be a skeptic.
> There are other more knowledgeable members in their respective fields who post liberally..and with considerable detail.. but Whatever they post.. is everything that is freely available as collectible information on the internet. If tomorrow I find that okay.. look...there is that new purchase I heard about talking to my colleague.. on that website.. hey..lets talk about it.
> But if I am having a chat with a senior in my organization..and he mentions something but says please do not mention it to anybody yet..I feel it best not to...it may something very trivial.. no james bond stuff.. but I can exercise the right to abstain from talking about it.
> Should steve jobs have revealed everything about the iphone 4 after that prototype was lost and found?.. what if the iphone was not up to the hype..what if it spurred nokia to make a better competitor after knowing what it would be facing?


you are being paranoid...I have already written about how the C4I system's brandishing would give Pakistan the ability to make it's enemy believe in it's efficiency...Pakistan seeks efficiency...number would never do it for you...and the other thing being...your C4I system's hardware component would am sure have nothing unheard of...at best it can have short-distance laser comms...or microwave comms for long distances...what type of signal processing you utilize is your concern...but it would not be like the case with apple and nokia...companies that research and come-out with new ground-breaking technologies...even the most upgraded system with India and Pakistan would not be a world-beater...at least for the time being...


> Now..for the record..I dont state ANYwhere that the IAF C4I is obsolete.. useless etc...please point out the post where I did do that.
> In my opinion all that data published on wikipedia is on operational systems which are in the process of having their replacement or upgrade being developed..which DRDO has possibly not even disclosed.


you and this other Pakistani guy were back-slapping each other about how inferior our system is to yours...the details of which can not be disclosed...seemed senseless...


> My contention is however.. with your countrymen.. who refuse to believe that we can keep up with you.. or at least make comparable..even if not better systems..


The only reason I am quoting you again and again and not the other guy is because...you are more logical than most of our lot and of a good temperament...and I expect you to have a good reason with proper backing to form a particular notion.


> You of all are familiar with me from the start..
> You have seen my posts at the beginning and their tone..
> and now..
> Wonder what caused the change..?


I would just say that you should not let the insane bring you down...
most of the clowns you interact with come blinded by patriotism.

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## silent hawk

DRDO said:


> *Indian Air Force to Possess Network Centric Warfare Capability by 2011 says Vice Air Marshal P V Naik*
> 
> *India is rapidly moving towards developing network centric warfare (NCW)* capability, Vice Chief of Air Staff Air Marshal P V Naik has said. "NCW is vital. You cannot survive today for long against a good adversary without this capability," said Indian Air Marshal at the Nellis Air Force Base, where IAF is participating in the prestigious Red Flag exercise.
> 
> Speaking to journalists after celebrating the Independence Day with Indian airmen, he said the Indian armed forces will have this capability by 2010-2011.
> 
> *"At present we do not have it, we are just about network enabled. *But we are in the process of developing this capability." Pioneered by the United States Department of Defence, NCW relies on computer processing power and networking communications technology to provide shared information of the battle space among armed forces. This shared awareness increases synergy for command and control, resulting in superior decision- making, and the ability to coordinate complex military operations over long distances for an overwhelming war-fighting advantage.
> 
> *Providing further details about Indian efforts towards network centricity, Air Marshal Naik said the backbone of this entire system will be a fibre optic-based network called Air Force Network (AFNET), on which will be riding the Integrated Air Command and Control Systems (IACCS). IACCS will provide the connectivity for all the airborne platforms and ground platforms. *
> 
> Indian Air Force to Possess Network Centric Warfare Capability by 2011 says Vice Air Marshal P V Naik | India Defence



No offence intended to anyone please.

In due course of time I shall prove how using various datum in this thead I had already reached this conclusion.

At present the sheer number of Pakistani companies dealing with C4I systems (Vision Defence System, AERO, Trojans, Project Vision, CARE) as compared to underdevelopment IACCS by Bharat Electronics should be an indication of Pakistan's edge in this domain


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## SQ8

Then the point of the debate comes down to the published facts..
Our C4I system.. based on what is published is in the process of being converted to a network centric system.
Apart from what is available.. such as the radar systems purchased etc..How they are integrated.. protocols.. setups.. etc..very little published info.. 
online..at least to my knowledge exists..
You may find peeks of it in the usual ISPR releases..or older videos..but that is that..Maybe that is the psyche of the Pakistan military not to be open..
or maybe they are just learning how to be media savvy.
either they know better..or they dont.. I cant judge.
as for the brandishing part.. I can simply state what I know from my sources.
I am incapable of asking the AF to give me any published data or proposal scans on the system.. apart from what is reported on in journals..or on wiki.
Again.. many of these projects are outsourced to universities..if they are published.. one can assume there is a foundation for such and such capability..
But if somebody is not willing to publish it...but if i have seen the groundwork for it..the people working on it.. how am I at fault for still believing in it?
again..agree to disagree.. but you cannot convert my perspective on it.

Now what if .. 6 months..or a year down the road.. a magazine like AFM does another in depth story on the PAF..and then the data is available on the net.
what if it debunks all that I have said here.. I lose my credibility..
what if it confirms all that has been said here...
Isnt that the point of these forums?.. 
isnt that where we found out about the J-10B from?
the much rumored yet not seen J-XX?
Lets say I tell you that I know that the C4I system has a detection to classification and tracking time of around 3ms..
lets assume I know the guy working on it.. and only deemed it necessary at the time to ask this question...
I dont know about the links..fiber..microwave.. optical or pigeon based..I never bothered to ask.. so does that automatically make the system non existent?
Maybe he is just doing it for research..or as a study..
But he is working on it..and we a pretty cash strapped nation..we dont just do stuff for the heck of it..

I am paranoid..or cautious..
particularly because of an ugly incident involving a colleague..he wasn't thrown into the gulag.. but people did find out he was being very descriptive of his work at his second job teaching university grads..and was severely reprimanded...I probably would not be risking anything if I talked openly here on what I am working on..its been done in india as well..yet..why take the chance.

p.s
I did not back slap him because he derided the Indian system or showed ours as better..but I occasionally do appreciate those who b|tchslap a clown around.
Im all for the discussions Ive had with you and raj..you learn something from them..even if its plain simple humility..
But the infestation of clowns...from anywhere doesn't go well with me..

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## silent hawk

*PURPOSE OF PAF AND IAF​*

I have been following the discussions of paritosh, raj and santro, very informative thankyou.

One important aspect that has come up is that of purpose.

If someone asks me to do a knife vs axe comparision I would want to know the purpose. If you want to cut a tree an axe is better however if you want to eat a steak a knife is better. Having a comparision without a purpose does not make sense.

PAF has always kept its purpose very simple. It is a force geared up for air combat primarily defence of Pakistani Air Space with some OCA (Offensive Counter Air) capability. It has one adversary IAF and has no strategic or global objectives. Pakistan has very little dept and many important installations are close to the border hence Pakistan Air Force with limited resources must protect difficult to defend National Assets against a much larger adversary. This cannot be achieved without force multipliers such as C4I systems. Hence PAF since 1980 has been trying to have the best possible C4I system.

Now lets come over to IAF

First of all there are enough posts in this thread alone to suggest that China is not a threat. Here are some.

Air Bases of China almost no threat to India
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/82343-paf-vs-iaf-command-control-systems.html#post1300081

SAMs of China once again not focused on India. It is clear that for China the main threat is from pro American Taiwan and from sea.(credit goes to rockstar for the image)





Quotes regarding China


desiman said:


> China is not India's enemy as many here would like to believe, we enjoy great cross border trade and there has been a lot of positive growth between the two countries in the last decade or so. Both countries have no interest in war and so both dont place their major defenses on the border. Please check China's sam placements for a better idea.



Now posts regarding IAFs capability

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/82343-paf-vs-iaf-command-control-systems-6.html#post1303885

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/82343-paf-vs-iaf-command-control-systems-7.html#post1304118

Looking at the quantity and quality of IAF aircraft it is clear that against Pakistan IAF does not need force multipliers.

The real issue is what is the purpose of IAF and against who is this power going to be unleashed.


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## rockstarIN

^^^IF have have a strong army and it never been to battle, the force have been serving you at best optimum level.

Alot of battles did not happen or such a situation didnt arise because of strong armies, which might not see action.


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## silent hawk

rockstar said:


> ^^^IF have have a strong army and it never been to battle, the force have been serving you at best optimum level.
> 
> A lot of battles did not happen or such a situation didnt arise because of strong armies, which might not see action.



One difference between civil and military is that civil works on probabilities while military works on worst case scenarios.

Take IAF in a worst case scenario. Pakistan or PAF just cannot afford to be benovelent. 

Let's review Military Theory

Utmost Use of Force
In such dangerous things as war, the errors which proceed from a spirit of benevolence are the worst.
Carl von Clausewitz

For Pakistan to even consider that IAF is a defensive force would be against the very principles of military theory.

I hope India realizes this


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## SQ8

The C4I systems being discussed here should also be taken in context of op req..
for eg..
Can it be said that the C4I system of sweden in the 80's was one of the best in the world? ...and considering its unique situation vis a vis the USSR.. was the best possible implementation of a system? maybe not.
The argument that the PAF's system is better than the IAF's and vice vera has to be based not on whether the operational requirements of the country are met effectively with that system.
In this respect..that IAF systems at this current stage..while being more numerous and incorporating extra sensors..will still not be sufficient to provide adequate coverage of India as a whole.
However.. the systems deployed currently which are concentrated on the western border of India..based on available data and equipment.. from the post made by members here.. is that while it has adequate high and med alt coverage throughout the western sector..there may be gaps in low alt coverage...(although they may have been deliberately ignored as the more imp northern and southern sectors got priority in equipment procurement).
As far as the integration of these systems is concerned. Since Pakistan's new C4I system has been disqualified on the basis of no published data being available..Ill bring out the old system which has been operational.
It has large gaps in low alt coverage in the lower plains of Punjab and upper sindh.
It is however.. networked to each sector operational center.
Since no published data on the internet exists on the integration of the Erieye's into this network.. so lets not consider it to appease the naysayers here.
consequently..the much publicized IAF C4I system of today.. is quite ahead of the last known published data on the PAF's C4I network.

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## rockstarIN

silent hawk said:


> One difference between civil and military is that civil works on probabilities while military works on worst case scenarios.
> 
> Take IAF in a worst case scenario. Pakistan or PAF just cannot afford to be benovelent.
> 
> Let's review Military Theory
> 
> Utmost Use of Force
> In such dangerous things as war, the errors which proceed from a spirit of benevolence are the worst.
> Carl von Clausewitz
> 
> For Pakistan to even consider that IAF is a defensive force would be against the very principles of military theory.
> 
> I hope India realizes this



It is all depends upon situations, India is a big country, we need a force to protest our interests in the region. You can't compare always India V/s Pakistan, we have larger area, long coasts. Yes, pakistan is one of the concern, it doesn't mean that is the only concern, we only spend 2-3% og GDP for Defense, but when the DGP grows, the spent will also grow.

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## silent hawk

rockstar said:


> It is all depends upon situations, India is a big country, *we need a force to protest our interests *in the region. You can't compare always India V/s Pakistan, we have larger area, long coasts. Yes, pakistan is one of the concern, it doesn't mean that is the only concern, we only spend 2-3% og GDP for Defense, but when the DGP grows, the spent will also grow.



Although this is a typing mistake but suprisingly it is the truth.

In 1965 protest against operation grand slam

In 1971 protest against atrocities being commited by west Pakistan against East Pakistan.

In 1999 protest against incursion in Kargil.

In 2002 protest against bombing of Indian Parliment.

In 2008 protest against Mumbai attacks.

Indian forces have been reactive for too long

After more than 60 years Pakistan carried out operations in tribal areas to remove known anti state elements.

What stops India from using its forces to carry out operations in Pakistan and remove elements that it considers anti state?

After being reactive for so long what stops India from finally taking an active stance?


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## rockstarIN

[


> QUOTE=silent hawk;1313126]Although this is a typing mistake but suprisingly it is the truth.



Not a typing mistake



> In 1965 protest against operation grand slam
> 
> In 1971 protest against atrocities being commited by west Pakistan against East Pakistan.
> 
> In 1999 protest against incursion in Kargil.
> 
> In 2002 protest against bombing of Indian Parliment.
> 
> In 2008 protest against Mumbai attacks.
> 
> Indian forces have been reactive for too long
> 
> After more than 60 years Pakistan carried out operations in tribal areas to remove known anti state elements.



Whats the point you are trying to point out?



> What stops India from using its forces to carry out operations in Pakistan and remove elements that it considers anti state?
> 
> After being reactive for so long what stops India from finally taking an active stance?


[/QUOTE]

You have nothing to loose, but we have a vibrant economy.


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## silent hawk

rockstar said:


> [
> 
> Not a typing mistake
> 
> 
> 
> Whats the point you are trying to point out?
> 
> You have nothing to loose, but we have a vibrant economy.





rockstar said:


> ^^^IF have have a strong army and it never been to battle, the force have been serving you at best optimum level.
> 
> Alot of battles did not happen or such a situation didnt arise because of strong armies, which might not see action.



The point is that the strong army has not been able to maintain peace. Pakistan continues to provoke India. In Pakistan there is a thinking that the Indian Forces may finally become pro-active. This is a capability which they have always had but never used.

It is true that you have an economy to loose but the forces also have to maintain morale and pride. When events like the bombing of Indian Parliment or Mumbai Incident take place and the armed forces are unable to do anything it must shurely create frustration in younger ranks. Similarly the people must be asking the armed forces what is the use of spending billions on them.

You are clearly trying to develop a missile shield, building a carrier groub , have SLBMs and many other things which clearly show that you must have offensive designs.

To me the purpose of the Indian armed forces is not clear. If such a large force was raised for defensive purposes than the purpose is surely not being achieved. Pakistan at this time feels highly threatened that this time India will not wait for a terrorist attack before trying a surgical strike. Are these fears unfounded?


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## rockstarIN

^^ Its not forces being proactive, it is a political decision always..

And we do not need to intervene, you guys have already lots of problems and there is larger players involved, no need for a conventional strike..


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## silent hawk

rockstar said:


> ^^ Its not forces being proactive, it is a political decision always..
> 
> And we do not need to intervene, you guys have already lots of problems and there is larger players involved, *no need for a conventional strike*..



Why then all the developments and procurements. Why spend billions to achieve a capability that is not needed. Yes it may be just 4% of GDP but why waste it. What about IACCS if there is no need for conventional strikes why is this system being developed?

India is spending billions to upgrade it's armed forces. There is no threat from China and Pakistan is really to small to give any serious challenge in the conventional domain. If India does not wish to intervene in Pakistan, what is the purpose of upgrading Indian armed forces?


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## rockstarIN

silent hawk said:


> Why then all the developments and procurements. Why spend billions to achieve a capability that is not needed. Yes it may be just 4% of GDP but why waste it. What about IACCS if there is no need for conventional strikes why is this system being developed?
> 
> India is spending billions to upgrade it's armed forces. There is no threat from China and Pakistan is really to small to give any serious challenge in the conventional domain. If India does not wish to intervene in Pakistan, what is the purpose of upgrading Indian armed forces?



You need a strong force to support your growth.

We have our interests in Indian Ocean region, need ACs. Look at Japan, who are No. 2 economy but shivers when N.Korea trsts its missiles.

And we are not spending too much for our defense, check this out..


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## Hulk

silent hawk said:


> Why then all the developments and procurements. Why spend billions to achieve a capability that is not needed. Yes it may be just 4% of GDP but why waste it. What about IACCS if there is no need for conventional strikes why is this system being developed?
> 
> India is spending billions to upgrade it's armed forces. There is no threat from China and Pakistan is really to small to give any serious challenge in the conventional domain. If India does not wish to intervene in Pakistan, what is the purpose of upgrading Indian armed forces?



Quick question buddy, you also accuse now on daily basis that India/RAW is targeting Pakistan. Why not you attack India then?

It is easier to say, it works both ways when you have to attack you have to think a lot. It's not easy. When you have to provoke, it does not take much simple as that.

If you want I can further discuss this, will see how much guts Pakistan has when it comes to attack.

We have taken right decision, terrorist attack are not best responded by conventional war, our forces think right. You have think what goal will you achieve? Nothing, it is better if we respond in kind. I would rather respond by enabling TTP. Simple as that, easier, cost effective.


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## silent hawk

rockstar said:


> You need a strong force to support your growth.
> 
> We have our interests in Indian Ocean region, need ACs. Look at Japan, who are No. 2 economy but shivers when N.Korea trsts its missiles.
> 
> And we are not spending too much for our defense, check this out..



Now I really have my doubts about wikipedia.

This map is surely incorrect. It shows India and Pakistan in the same category. India may be spending very less percentage but Pakistan really has to give a large chunk to keep pace.

You do not wish to be like Japan that I understand. You also wish to be a permenant member of the UN security council. You also admit that the main purpose is political.

Can I than conclude that the purpose of the present upgradation of the Indian armed forces is a requirement for getting a permenant seat in the UN Security Council. India never did and still does not have any offensive designs against any neighbouring country?


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## lionheart1

rockstar said:


> [
> 
> Not a typing mistake
> 
> 
> 
> Whats the point you are trying to point out?



You have nothing to loose, but we have a vibrant economy.[/QUOTE]

there will be time for every thing, anti-India elements can be taken out many ways , by different means , at different levels ,when time comes , if we think it is necessary we will use force, no power in the world can stops us ,


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## silent hawk

lionheart1 said:


> there will be time for every thing, anti-India elements can be taken out many ways , by different means , at different levels ,when time comes , if we think it is necessary we will use force, no power in the world can stops us ,



nice patriotic comment.


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## lionheart1

silent hawk said:


> Why then all the developments and procurements. Why spend billions to achieve a capability that is not needed. Yes it may be just 4% of GDP but why waste it. What about IACCS if there is no need for conventional strikes why is this system being developed?
> 
> India is spending billions to upgrade it's armed forces. There is no threat from China and Pakistan is really to small to give any serious challenge in the conventional domain. If India does not wish to intervene in Pakistan, what is the purpose of upgrading Indian armed forces?



because for this Pak used terror as a hedge against India: Clinton
if there is another terror attack on our country . india will wage a war against you .( see little bit off the topic but it is necessary for the discussion ). India will not even give a single inch of land mean border cannot be redrawn at any cost for india . we will built atleast 18 dams on sindu river (indus), planing is to built 28 dam it will provoke pakistan , to protect india and Indian assets from any external aggression . we need a stronge armed force, and we have the money to maintain it .


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## lionheart1

silent hawk said:


> nice patriotic comment.



it all facts my dear friend , it will be foolish to kill a person who is going to do suicide


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## silent hawk

lionheart1 said:


> it all facts my dear friend , it will be foolish to kill a person who is going to do suicide



nice attempt to provoke


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## notorious_eagle

lionheart1 said:


> it all facts my dear friend , it will be foolish to kill a person who is going to do suicide



But in this case we are not committing suicide and these are not facts. Sure India boasts a very fine Armed Forces but it does not has the numbers and the officers needed to pull off an overwhelming victory against Pakistan. This is a fact my friend, and if you don't believe me your Government certainly seems to believe that which has been made public after these Wiki Leaks. I have said this a hundred times and i will say it again, if India felt it could pull off an easy victory against Pakistan they would have attacked Pakistan in 2002 or 2008 to punish them and show whose the boss in South Asia. So stop trolling with these one liners and write something which has substance in it.

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## Hulk

notorious_eagle said:


> But in this case we are not committing suicide and these are not facts. Sure India boasts a very fine Armed Forces but it does not has the numbers and the officers needed to pull off an overwhelming victory against Pakistan. This is a fact my friend, and if you don't believe me your Government certainly seems to believe that which has been made public after these Wiki Leaks. I have said this a hundred times and i will say it again, if India felt it could pull off an easy victory against Pakistan they would have attacked Pakistan in 2002 or 2008 to punish them and show whose the boss in South Asia. So stop trolling with these one liners and write something which has substance in it.



Countries don't go for war just to prove something, this is something that many Pakistani's completly miss. War happens as a last resort, when it is unavoidable. If you are not making attempts to avoid war, you are fool. We certainly are not fools.


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## lionheart1

notorious_eagle said:


> But in this case we are not committing suicide and these are not facts. Sure India boasts a very fine Armed Forces but it does not has the numbers and the officers needed to pull off an overwhelming victory against Pakistan. This is a fact my friend, and if you don't believe me your Government certainly seems to believe that which has been made public after these Wiki Leaks. I have said this a hundred times and i will say it again, if India felt it could pull off an easy victory against Pakistan they would have attacked Pakistan in 2002 or 2008 to punish them and show whose the boss in South Asia. So stop trolling with these one liners and write something which has substance in it.


tell me which Indian government officer or minister as said it , it was said by american ambassador. tell me frankly what he know about indian armed forces. ok to sustain a war you need money atleast agree on it, how many day pakistan can sustain . see for every comment i made i will provide you a link , i dont troll

"But in this case we are not committing suicide and these are not facts"
i like your confidence but world thinks differently 
http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/Obama-believes-cancer-of-terrorism-is-in-Pak-Book/686098/

main objective or aim of any military of any nation is to protect his country, not to destroy others, i think indian army is doing a wonderful job. god speed


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## silent hawk

I think we can now safely conclude that the Indian armed forces want to be a regional and global superpower. They may not have offensive designs but at the very least they would like to have an armed forces which can inflict pain and punishment in case of terrorist attacks such as 2002 and 2008.

This would make sense Wikileaks has also confirmed that India despite its desire was unable to inflict pain on Pakistan. India hence does not have the capability to be regional power. India wants this capability and is hence upgrading its armed forces.

Unless there are rational counter arguments, I shall use this conclusion to compare PAF and IAF C4I systems


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## lionheart1

silent hawk said:


> I think we can now safely conclude that the Indian armed forces want to be a regional and global superpower. They may not have offensive designs but at the very least they would like to have an armed forces which can inflict pain and punishment in case of terrorist attacks such as 2002 and 2008.
> 
> This would make sense Wikileaks has also confirmed that India despite its desire was unable to inflict pain on Pakistan. India hence does not have the capability to be regional power. India wants this capability and is hence upgrading its armed forces.
> 
> Unless there are rational counter arguments, I shall use this conclusion to compare PAF and IAF C4I systems


 agree with many of your points but 26/11 was 2years ago , we have developed many system . we have procured many system from Israel . at the time of 26/11 we didnt had single awac now we have three . many of our sukohis where grounded due to shortage of tyres, but now we are completely manufacturing every part.(we have lowest number of squadron 32no in the Iaf history) but this month we will get IOC for tejas , MMrca will be finalized with in next 6 months . with in 20 day we are signing a deal with russia for fGFA amounting 30 billion dollars. already 2 squadron of akash sam as been inducted (produced by Bharath dynamics limited) another one squadron is ready to induct (produced by bharath electronics limited). iaf is expected to order 30,000 crores on akash in next few years .over all we will have a good armed forces which will good enough to defend our country and country's interest


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## Hulk

India is mordenizing it's defense due to following reason.
1) We did not purchased weapons for around 3 decades and hence most of these weapons are old.
2) China has rapidly improved it defense system and we want to make sure we can defend against China.
3) After 26/11 war against Pakistan seems a possibility, even though we do not want to go to war but if provoked time and again we will be left with no option.
4) Economonically we have grown hence defence organisation are getting more budget.

These are key points, but most people give miss to point one, which is the main point. When you do not buy clothes for some years you will find that all your clothes have become old, at the same time you get money and you buy clothes in bulk. This does not mean tomorrow is Diwali.


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## silent hawk

indianrabbit said:


> Countries don't go for war just to prove something, this is something that many Pakistani's completly miss. War happens as a last resort, when it is unavoidable. If you are not making attempts to avoid war, you are fool. We certainly are not fools.



With all due respect sir there is a very important point which many Indians including you have missed. The point is that *India and Pakistan are at war*. I have already proved this in previous posts so I will not do it again.

Pakistan is not trying to avoid war it is trying to end it. Because we not have the conventional means to challenge India most of our offensive actions are asymetric. These attempts shall continue till the time the Kashmir dispute is resolved. The question is not of how India will retaliate if Pakistan does something. The question is how will India retaliate *when* Pakistan does something.

No offence intended but in my opinions it is the Indians who are fools because they do not understand the reality. The reality is that there is no point in trying to prevent a war which is already going on. The efforts have to be to end this conflict and to end it as soon as possible.


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## Tameem

silent hawk said:


> With all due respect sir there is a very important point which many Indians including you have missed. The point is that *India and Pakistan are at war*. I have already proved this in previous posts so I will not do it again.
> 
> Pakistan is not trying to avoid war it is trying to end it. Because we not have the conventional means to challenge India most of our offensive actions are asymetric. These attempts shall continue till the time the Kashmir dispute is resolved. The question is not of how India will retaliate if Pakistan does something. The question is how will India retaliate *when* Pakistan does something.
> 
> No offence intended but in my opinions it is the Indians who are fools because they do not understand the reality. The reality is that there is no point in trying to prevent a war which is already going on. The efforts have to be to end this conflict and to end it as soon as possible.



Sir, IMHO it all ends up to basically Hindu Vs Muslim mindsets in the Indian subcontinent which relates to their cultural traditions more or less, they highly admires Ganesh (Elephant) God in their culture even worships it on the other hand Muslims highly admires Shaheen (Eagle) the famous Iqbal ka Shaheen every Pakistani dreamed to be example of in his/her childhood.

The traits of both these animals effects greatly on the overall actions and mindsets of the masses and elites alike. Although Elephants are big they are slow to respond in every aspect however they never forget anything easily. Shaheens on the other hand lives for the day and quick to respond in equally every aspect. Elephant pent up their inner desires for some suitable time to avenge while eagles are ever ready for any eventualities whatsoever, If we go by this tendency we will witness a lot of similarities in the behavior of respective nations alike.

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## rockstarIN

> =silent hawk;1313457]Now I really have my doubts about wikipedia.



Wiki never quote anything, its is all from other sources ans its just a platform to share it.

T


> his map is surely incorrect. It shows India and Pakistan in the same category. India may be spending very less percentage but Pakistan really has to give a large chunk to keep pace.



Do you have anything to prove otherwise? then share it..



> You do not wish to be like Japan that I understand. You also wish to be a permenant member of the UN security council. You also admit that the main purpose is political.
> 
> Can I than conclude that the purpose of the present upgradation of the Indian armed forces is a requirement for getting a permenant seat in the UN Security Council. India never did and still does not have any offensive designs against any neighbouring country?



Everybody have war plans, it is offensive & defensive. But to apply it is political decision. I understand your confusion, you see Indian huge army and doing nothing against poking of Pakistan. Its all about political leadership of India's and their foreign policy, war is the last resort, there are enough ways to counter it.


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## silent hawk

*ANALYSIS OF IAF C4I SYSTEMS*​

I now have enough data to make this analysis and make sense of it as well.

Published data shows that at present IAF has recently put AFNET in place and are developing IACCS.







This picture of AFNET shows a modern Network Operations Center (NOC) it is not a C4I system. The network is visible on the LSD it has about 30 nodes. With AFNET in place IAF now has the required communications network to build modern C4I systems. The mere fact that this system has recently gone active should be enough proof for professionals of this field to conclude that at present IAF cannot have a modern C4I center.

Here is what the AFNET has replaced.


> The AFNet replaces the Indian Air Force's (IAF) old communication network set-up using the tropo-scatter technology of the 1950s making it a true net-centric combat force



The AFNET replaces 1950 technology, once again people with domain knowledge can easiliy conclude that at present IAF C4I systems consist of long distance HF radio links, Plotting Boards, China Graph pencils and operators who can write in mirror hand. With C4I systems it is simple you cannot have them till you have the communication system. Before AFNET such a system simply did not exist.

As someone mentioned India is buying clothes after a very long time. Soon I shall explain Why?

Now lets look at the IACCS






There is enough proof available to confirm that this is a system under development. So the question is at what point of development is IACCS?

From the Image I would say it is at the prototype/ proof of concept stage. The only developed center is the Operational Level ADCC. Rest of the images are cut paste from the internet as admitted by an Indian in this thread.

Let us look at the block diagram of IACCS.






This was the point where IAF C4I program became completely clear to me.

This system does not hape the capability to be network centric. NCW systems have the capability to operate with components at geographically dispersed locations. Hence in the block diagram of a NCW system you will never find the blocks connected with a LAN. Also there is no provisioning of voice which as I mentioned is one the most challenging aspects. 

So the final element is Why is IAF lagging in C4I systems ?

The answer is that till 2008 India really did not need it. After 1971 IAF has never really been challenged. It has never been required to carry out offensive operations in Pakistan. The sheer quantity and quality of IAF fighters seemed to be good enough to take care of Pakistan. IAFs support in Kargil in a defensive role gave them further confidence of their abilities. In 2002 the main show was of the Indian army.

The problems as confirmed by Wikileaks came in 2008 when after the 2008 Mumbai Incident IAF was required in order to restore National Pride, to carry out Surgical Strikes in Pakistan. It was revealed that IAF does not have this capability. IAFs current moderenization plan is hence aimed at acieving the ability to inflict pain and punishment on Pakistan if and when required.

India does not Shiver like Japan does. However if it want's to be a Superpower it must have the capability to make other's shiver. This is what IAFs modernization program must be about.

I know this is a Vs thread and soon I shall give an analysis of PAF systems as well. In the meantime comments on my analysis (school report as mentioned by someone) are welcome.


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## SQ8

depending on the protocol chosen..it is possible to embed voice in it.
The US army's low alt warning system uses the SINGCARS radio to transmit its data back to the op center.. whilst maintaining voice capability.
There are already open source protocols available that allow for both data and voice transmission over the network.. and all are capable of being encrypted.

There are a few research centre's in India which have come up with such adaptations..and it is quite unlikely that DRDO did not notice..if not even support them.

In this respect.. if one was to take word of mouth..the PAF's project vision is no different from the IACCS...with a bigger role however for the command HQ's.
The NOC shown here already exists in the PAF.. one can buy that book I referred to get an idea of it..

The network, software section isnt the main problem.. its the hardware beneath it..
and right now the PAF lags behind in two major sectors of that hardware.


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## Hulk

silent hawk said:


> With all due respect sir there is a very important point which many Indians including you have missed. The point is that *India and Pakistan are at war*. I have already proved this in previous posts so I will not do it again.
> 
> Pakistan is not trying to avoid war it is trying to end it. Because we not have the conventional means to challenge India most of our offensive actions are asymetric. These attempts shall continue till the time the Kashmir dispute is resolved. The question is not of how India will retaliate if Pakistan does something. The question is how will India retaliate *when* Pakistan does something.
> 
> No offence intended but in my opinions it is the Indians who are fools because they do not understand the reality. The reality is that there is no point in trying to prevent a war which is already going on. The efforts have to be to end this conflict and to end it as soon as possible.



Looking at your reply, it apprears to me that you are not interested in understanding other person's post at all.

You asked why India did not do surgical strike. I replied saying going for war has to be well thought and should be last resort.

Your answer is not making sense to me at all. Because in the context I meant conventional war not cold war or hidden war types.

Now about your conclusion on what system we have and if that is inferior to what Pakistan has.

1) Most of us posting here are civilians, not seen any Military pofessional from India, there are some Pakistan, so ofcourse we do not have a level field. Given that I think some of my fellow countrymen were doing awesome job, I am very proud of them

2) Even if we had someone who knew this info, I do not think he will post it over the forum.

3) India has more money and more access to technology, so that way they should definatly have better system. One problem we have is buerocracy, and lack of focus or interest on defense purchase. This has changed after 26/11 and Kargil. So I will continue to believe we will have systems at par or better than your *no matter what you post*, now carry on.


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## silent hawk

santro said:


> depending on the protocol chosen..it is possible to embed voice in it.
> The US army's low alt warning system uses the SINGCARS radio to transmit its data back to the op center.. whilst maintaining voice capability.
> There are already open source protocols available that allow for both data and voice transmission over the network.. and all are capable of being encrypted.
> 
> There are a few research centre's in India which have come up with such adaptations..and it is quite unlikely that DRDO did not notice..if not even support them.
> 
> In this respect.. if one was to take word of mouth..the PAF's project vision is no different from the IACCS...with a bigger role however for the command HQ's.
> The NOC shown here already exists in the PAF.. one can buy that book I referred to get an idea of it..
> 
> The network, software section isnt the main problem.. its the hardware beneath it..
> and right now the PAF lags behind in two major sectors of that hardware.



Sir I totally believe what you say , however for this thread everything said must have a reference like wikipedia.

Surprisingly as I mentioned according to the net Project Vision hardly exists.

As mentioned I shall soon make a comparision of PAFs system. Right now I am focused on the IAF system. I agree that IAF will come up with solutions if PAF can do it why not IAF. However the point is that at present India can not have a modern C4I system as many Indian chest thumpers have been claiming.

The actual position of IAF C4I systems must rationally be very close to my analysis.


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## silent hawk

indianrabbit said:


> Looking at your reply, it apprears to me that you are not interested in understanding other person's post at all.
> 
> You asked why India did not do surgical strike. I replied saying going for war has to be well thought and should be last resort.
> 
> Your answer is not making sense to me at all. Because in the context I meant conventional war not cold war or hidden war types.
> 
> Now about your conclusion on what system we have and if that is inferior to what Pakistan has.
> 
> 1) Most of us posting here are civilians, not seen any Military pofessional from India, there are some Pakistan, so ofcourse we do not have a level field. Given that I think some of my fellow countrymen were doing awesome job, I am very proud of them
> 
> 2) Even if we had someone who knew this info, I do not think he will post it over the forum.
> 
> 3) India has more money and more access to technology, so that way they should definatly have better system. One problem we have is buerocracy, and lack of focus or interest on defense purchase. This has changed after 26/11 and Kargil. So I will continue to believe we will have systems at par or better than your *no matter what you post*, now carry on.



Sir I appreciate your patriotism. My discussion is purely military and technical in nature. I think Pakistani's and Indians both love their countries. As I once said.

*I love Pakistan but I don't hate Indian​*


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## Hulk

silent hawk said:


> Sir I appreciate your patriotism. My discussion is purely military and technical in nature. I think Pakistani's and Indians both love their countries. As I once said.
> 
> *I love Pakistan but I don't hate Indian​*



Neither do I hate Pakistan, it's not about that buddy. You are trying to play both side in 1 game, it is not correct. You completly ignored what I have written this time too. Only replied with one liner. I am getting a sense that you just don't care what people write and are upto proving something even if no one is reading and believing. So carry on.


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## silent hawk

santro said:


> depending on the protocol chosen..it is possible to embed voice in it.
> The US army's low alt warning system uses the SINGCARS radio to transmit its data back to the op center.. whilst maintaining voice capability.
> There are already open source protocols available that allow for both data and voice transmission over the network.. and all are capable of being encrypted.
> 
> There are a few research centre's in India which have come up with such adaptations..and it is quite unlikely that DRDO did not notice..if not even support them.
> 
> In this respect.. if one was to take word of mouth..the PAF's project vision is no different from the IACCS...with a bigger role however for the command HQ's.
> The NOC shown here already exists in the PAF.. one can buy that book I referred to get an idea of it..
> 
> The network, software section isnt the main problem.. its the hardware beneath it..
> and right now the PAF lags behind in two major sectors of that hardware.



Sir, I once asked what is the most challenging aspect of C4I development?

One very challenging aspect as you very well know is convincing the end user. Military projects as once again you very well know have their own momentum.

The staff requirements for the Indian Project are final they don't listen to qualified PHD doctors let alone a blogger on a Pakistani forum.

No having interacted with the military both of us know that at least in the first phase IACCS will not have NCW capability.


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## silent hawk

indianrabbit said:


> Neither do I hate Pakistan, it's not about that buddy. You are trying to play both side in 1 game, it is not correct. You completly ignored what I have written this time too. Only replied with one liner. I am getting a sense that you just don't care what people write and are upto proving something even if no one is reading and believing. So carry on.



With all due respect sir I try to go for the spirit of things. When you put down *no matter what you post* in bold you yourself have closed all avenues of rational discussion. Being a junior I was just agreeing to disagree in a respectful way.


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## Rafi

PAF C4I Centre - by the way these are deep underground and can still operate in a nuclear environment

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## SQ8

and even these have now been upgraded...
But there is nothing on the internet..
So people wont believe it .

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## silent hawk

If you look carefully at the PAF system you will see something which the IACCS lacks. Headsets.


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## silent hawk

santro said:


> depending on the protocol chosen..it is possible to embed voice in it.
> The US army's low alt warning system uses the SINGCARS radio to transmit its data back to the op center.. whilst maintaining voice capability.
> There are already open source protocols available that allow for both data and voice transmission over the network.. and all are capable of being encrypted.
> 
> There are a few research centre's in India which have come up with such adaptations..and it is quite unlikely that DRDO did not notice..if not even support them.
> 
> In this respect.. if one was to take word of mouth..the PAF's project vision is no different from the IACCS...with a bigger role however for the command HQ's.
> The NOC shown here already exists in the PAF.. one can buy that book I referred to get an idea of it..
> 
> *The network, software section isnt the main problem.. its the hardware beneath it..
> and right now the PAF lags behind in two major sectors of that hardware*.



Sir, Maybe you are reffering to RADEX and Cognative Radio. No problem at the correct point in time and space I am sure PAF will take these systems from your company. 

For the forum it must be clear that Pakistani companies have indigenous solutions for these hardware related issues. PAF for the timebeing is using available foreign technology.


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## India Rising

a army whose army is only 2.5 times of pakistan (approx)..having a budget of more than five times of pakistan and having the assistance of countries like Israel, Germany, US, Russia, France (all have the access of cutting edge technology)...and india herself known for one of the best IT destination...
It is hard to believe that she is inferior to paksitan in these aspect without concrete proofs....

provide the proofs.... rather than gives the verdict on your perception..thanks

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## paritosh

silent hawk said:


> The point is that the strong army has not been able to maintain peace. Pakistan continues to provoke India. In Pakistan there is a thinking that the Indian Forces may finally become pro-active. This is a capability which they have always had but never used.
> 
> It is true that you have an economy to loose but the forces also have to maintain morale and pride. When events like the bombing of Indian Parliment or Mumbai Incident take place and the armed forces are unable to do anything it must shurely create frustration in younger ranks. Similarly the people must be asking the armed forces what is the use of spending billions on them.
> 
> You are clearly trying to develop a missile shield, building a carrier groub , have SLBMs and many other things which clearly show that you must have offensive designs.
> 
> *To me the purpose of the Indian armed forces is not clear. If such a large force was raised for defensive purposes than the purpose is surely not being achieved*. Pakistan at this time feels highly threatened that this time India will not wait for a terrorist attack before trying a surgical strike. Are these fears unfounded?



India and Pakistan have come out of years of occupation and colonization...India's mindset has been that of an aggrieved farmer...willing to use his sickle for war...
Our semi-successful policy of NAM was aimed at never gettig sub-dued or dependent on a bigger power ever again...at least on paper.
The India of Lal Bahadur Shastri was different from that of Indira Gandhi...the 70s brought forth the power posturing phase of India...
Our policy off-late imo is based on the fear that we might have to fight on two fronts with two nuclear powers....a frightening scenario for even the biggest of powers....a big reason for a chiefly agrarian and poor country to go for a/c carriers and 5th gen planes and nuke subs...
it's a pity...that both India and Pakistan have drawn each other into this viscious cycle...

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## silent hawk

India Rising said:


> a army whose army is only 2.5 times of pakistan (approx)..having a budget of more than five times of pakistan and having the assistance of countries like Israel, Germany, US, Russia, France (all have the access of cutting edge technology)...and india herself known for one of the best IT destination...
> It is hard to believe that she is inferior to paksitan in these aspect without concrete proofs....
> 
> provide the proofs.... rather than gives the verdict on your perception..thanks



This is not a court its a forum. People express thier point of view and respect others. The material has been posted people can decide for themselves.

Development arises out of neccesity. In the 1998 Kargil Cricis Pakistan realized that PAF does not have the capability to support insurgency operations inside India. PAF so went on an upgradation program. The thunder, PAF's C4I system and PAFs UAV programme are the results of that upgrade.

After Mumbai India has started upgrading IAF so that it can inflict pain and punishment on Pakistan.

The only reason why we have a better C4I system is because we started earlier. Rest all of your figures are correct.


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## silent hawk

paritosh said:


> India and Pakistan have come out of years of occupation and colonization...India's mindset has been that of an aggrieved farmer...willing to use his sickle for war...
> Our semi-successful policy of NAM was aimed at never gettig sub-dued or dependent on a bigger power ever again...at least on paper.
> The India of Lal Bahadur Shastri was different from that of Indira Gandhi...the 70s brought forth the power posturing phase of India...
> Our policy off-late imo is based on the fear that we might have to fight on two fronts with two nuclear powers....a frightening scenario for even the biggest of powers....a big reason for a chiefly agrarian and poor country to go for a/c carriers and 5th gen planes and nuke subs...
> *it's a pity...that both India and Pakistan have drawn each other into this viscious cycle...*



I completely agree with you sir it is indeed a pity. However I strongly believe that our drawing each other into this viscous cycle did not occur naturally.

Soon Allah willing I shall launch my second thread on how the west deliberately created hatred between India and Pakistan. 

The ultimate aim of war is peace. We must remove animosities if we want to win.

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## India Rising

silent hawk said:


> This is not a court its a forum. People express thier point of view and respect others. The material has been posted people can decide for themselves.
> 
> Development arises out of neccesity. In the 1998 Kargil Cricis Pakistan realized that PAF does not have the capability to support insurgency operations inside India. PAF so went on an upgradation program. The thunder, PAF's C4I system and PAFs UAV programme are the results of that upgrade.
> 
> After Mumbai India has started upgrading IAF so that it can inflict pain and punishment on Pakistan.
> 
> *The only reason why we have a better C4I system is because we started earlier. Rest all of your figures are correct*.



proved the bolded part.....apart from that how much percentage you think the classified information is available to everyone to see ?? this is nothing but apne muh miya mithdoo banana...

what about the defence budget that india have along with human resources and technology that we have the access, you didn't respond to these obvious facts...

and also you didn't provide the concrete proofs..

let discuss in a more pragmatics way rather than a fanboyish approach.


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## silent hawk

India Rising said:


> proved the bolded part.....apart from that how much percentage you think the classified information is available to everyone to see ?? this is nothing but apne muh miya mithdoo banana...
> 
> what about the defence budget that india have along with human resources and technology that we have the access, you didn't respond to these obvious facts...
> 
> and also you didn't provide the concrete proofs..
> 
> let discuss in a more pragmatics way rather than a fanboyish approach.


 
Sure ,please start the pragmatic discussion..


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## SEAL

India Rising said:


> proved the bolded part.....apart from that how much percentage you think the classified information is available to everyone to see ?? this is nothing but apne muh miya mithdoo banana...
> 
> what about the defence budget that india have along with human resources and technology that we have the access, you didn't respond to these obvious facts...
> 
> and also you didn't provide the concrete proofs..
> 
> let discuss in a more pragmatics way rather than a fanboyish approach.



You have anything to prove him wrong? If not than instead of posting useless stuff enjoy the discussion.


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## Rafi

*The Sakb and the Al Khalid and Al Zarrar main battle tanks are all being equipped with the Integrated Battlefield Management System (IBMS), a system to track friendly and enemy positions similar to the US Army's Blue Force Tracking. 

The IBMS uses VHF and UHF communications and each vehicle can act as a relay. The integration of the systems is already under way and is scheduled to be finished by December, said Mohsin Rahmatullah, director of business development, which developed the IBMS together with HIT. The hardware from the system may be exported, most likely first to the United Arab Emirates, Rahmatullah said. 
'HIT's vehicle showcase' (JDW 25 September 2002) 
*


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## Rafi

*C4I AND AIR DEFENCE AUTOMATION SYSTEM


Category : C4-1 Air Defence Automation System
Manufacturer : GIDS
Detail

The Air Defense Automation System has been indigenously developed by Air Weapons Complex (AERO). The designed system collects information from all Air Defense sensors and radars, processes it, converts it into a standard format and displays it in real time at any desired location. The system architecture is independent of space, time and communication medium. The Command and Control System provides an environment for multiple functions to operate on the same hardware platform and share data via a Local Area Network (LAN) or a Wide Area Network (WAN).
The System allows the Commander to a view a fused picture of his complete Area Of Responsibility (AOR). It is a compilation of data from all Air Defense sensors, combined with battle plan, projection overlays, and any other data that is available, including:
current locations and planned movement operations of ground, maritime and air units of friendly, neutral, and enemy forces generated features and projections (e.g. battle plans, operating zones).
Our engineers work closely with the customers to provide them customized, open, flexible and cost-effective solutions to their Air Defense Automation System requirements. AERO provides comprehensive Integrated Logistic Support (ILS) throughout the life cycle of the System.
SALIENT FEATURES

Seamless integration with C4I systems.
Network centric design allowing self-forming and self-healing network (user can enter or leave the network dynamically).
Complete Air Situation Display (ASD).
User friendly and compact Graphical User Interface.
The System can be operated in different modes (Operator, Commander etc.)
Personnel training under simulation mode.
Scenario recording and replay facility.
Communication with lower and higher command centers.
Advanced GIS support.
Multiple layer architecture (Display of multiple maps).
Map features e.g. map loading, map editing, map color changing etc.
Preset and programmable zoom buttons.
Display of Latitude/Longitude, Georef and Grid System.
True battlefield scenario support.
Display of track history during interception operation. User can switch on/off history of track.
Track symbol indicating its category.
Track type indicates the threat status of the track.
Tactical interception aids available.
Radar on/off option.
Aircraft Plot Suppression Area (PSA).
Non-automatic track initiation area.
Weapons (SAM/AAA) status monitoring.
Use of commercial technologies.
Ergonomically designed Command and Control Console.
Easy maintenance.
MULTIPLE RADAR TRACKER 
Multi Radar Tracker (MRT) uses state-of-the-art tracking algorithms to detect and track all modern, fast and highly maneuverable targets, hence forming an integral part of C4I and Air Defense Automation System. It works effectively in high clutter environments and displays real time information for any command & control function. It can handle 2000 plots and 1000 tracks. This capability can be further enhanced due to scalable design of the Tracker. It can be integrated simultaneously with homogenous and heterogeneous radars.
The Tracker automatically initiates and reliably tracks maneuvering targets. The tracks initiation and maneuvering detection is enhanced with multiple sensors. The trackers update the display information at a high rate to form a true, accurate and complete Air Situation Display (ASD) for all air-defense and air-traffic control operations.

The main functions of the MRT algorithm include:

Inferring the presence of valid targets from a series of plots and tracks received from different radars.
Calculating optimally by the sensor the true trajectories of the target in presence of uncertainties imposed by the sensor as well as aircraft dynamics.
Recognizing and rejecting false targets.
Successfully tracking and predicting the optimal estimates of the target in the presence of clutter and false alarms.
Displaying target tracking information.
Forming correct association between tracks and observation from radars in different environment.
Successfully tracking the target during extreme conditions of fast maneuver, formations, miss detection, cross-overs etc.
Fusing information from multiple radars of different ranges, resolutions, scan times and other radars parameters.
Analyzing the influence of sensor modeling, radar processor design, and change of other system parameters on algorithm design.*

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## Rafi

Pakistan Army's Integrated Battlefield Management System, that is employed in all Tanks and APC's as well as other Armoured Vehicles, plans are to introduce a version to the individual squad, and/or soldier level

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## Rafi

*After successful launching and operation of BADR series of experimental satellites (BADR-1 and BADR-B) in the 1990s and early 2000s, SUPARCO now plans to launch high resolution remote sensing satellite system (RSSS) to meet the national and international user requirements in the field of satellite imagery.

A feasibility and system definition study was concluded in January 2007 which recommended the launch of a constellation of Optical and Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR) Satellites to ensure that the domestic and international user requirements are competitively met. In this respect the RFP for RSSS consultancy services was launched in July 2007. Launch of RFP for the manufacturing of the satellite is planned in the third quarter of year 2008.

RSSS is planned to be a progressive and sustainable program. Initially, SUPARCO plans to launch an optical satellite with payload of 2.5 meter PAN in 700 km sun-synchronous orbit by the end of year 2011, which will be followed by a series of optical and SAR satellites in future. Necessary infrastructure for ground control and image reception and processing is also planned to be setup.*


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## Rafi

*By the end of 2011, Pakistan plans to replace PAKSAT-1 with a new communication satellite PAKSAT-1R which will be manufactured exclusively for Pakistan. The satellite will support all conventional and modern Fixed Satellite Service (FSS) applications. The satellite will have a total of up to 30 transponders: 18 in Ku-band and 12 in C-band. To ensure high degree of reliability / availability of the system, two (02) fully redundant Satellite Ground Control Stations (SGCS) would be established in Karachi and Lahore, one to act as the Main and the other as Backup respectively.*


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## Rafi

Pakistani AWAC's induction


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## Rafi

YouTube - Pakistan's Saab Erieye 2000 AEW&C Aircraft


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## rockstarIN

indianrabbit said:


> 1) Most of us posting here are civilians, not seen any Military pofessional from India, there are some Pakistan, so ofcourse we do not have a level field. Given that I think some of my fellow countrymen were doing awesome job, I am very proud of them
> 
> 2) Even if we had someone who knew this info, I do not think he will post it over the forum.
> 
> 3) India has more money and more access to technology, so that way they should definatly have better system. One problem we have is buerocracy, and lack of focus or interest on defense purchase. This has changed after 26/11 and Kargil. So I will continue to believe we will have systems at par or better than your *no matter what you post*, now carry on.



You are right, most of the people are civilians as harly we know much of the systems.

India has more likely to have access the technology.

The reasons are

-ISRO suppose to prepare an urgency-satellite plan, if in case our military/communication satillite was shot down, there should be continuous communications.

-Partnership in Glonass, MKIs are fitted with both Glonass+GPS, in case US switch off GPS as they did in Balkan war.

-GPS Aided Geo Augmented Navigation or GPS and Geo Augmented Navigation system (GAGAN) is a planned implementation of a regional Satellite Based Augmentation System (SBAS) by the Indian government

-IRNSS, own satellite navigation system

-Our Chandryan mission, we were able to send our unmanned vehicle to moon.

With all the above achievements/w.i.p, it is very hard to believe that India dont have world class communications systems.

Thx


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## Rafi

rockstar so basically you are guessing, check the above posts Pakistan with evidence is clearly ahead of india in net centric warfare.


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## Rafi

*ECOM SQPS is a multiplier that a commando needs. The success of a squad behind enemy lines may just depend on this. After a para-drop from the plane inside hostile territory you must know where you and your squad are vis-&#224;-vis the objective. SQPS is a personnel electronic map positioning system, the commander wears it on his belt. On a small portable color screen, he can view the map of the area, his objective, his own position and that of his entire squad. A miniature GPS sensor on the shoulder of every commando establishes his position, which is electronically transmitted to the commander and displayed on hand computer via the squad radio. The entire mission is programmed in the map on the commanders hand computer overlaid on the geographic map of the area. Being evaluated by the SSG, SSGN, SSW, SOTF and will then be introduced to regular infantry formations.*


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## rockstarIN

Rafi said:


> rockstar so basically you are guessing, check the above posts Pakistan with evidence is clearly ahead of india in net centric warfare.



Just go again thru my post and just try to think logically, dont you think our strategists are less capable? look at our air force whatever we have, we got the best from the world(except, f-22) rest all good machines are competing to have IAF colours. And we learned alot from Gulf wars which we were closely monitoring. We started large scale procurement of BVRs and MKIs after that only.

Also, most of the points made this thread too were based on assumptions only...


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## Rafi

rockstar said:


> Just go again thru my post and just try to think logically, dont you think our strategists are less capable? look at our air force whatever we have, we got the best from the world(except, f-22) rest all good machines are competing to have IAF colours. And we learned alot from Gulf wars which we were closely monitoring. We started large scale procurement of BVRs and MKIs after that only.
> 
> Also, most of the points made this thread too were based on assumptions only...



We are streets ahead of india in networked warfare, this has been proven through open sources  Your claim that your strategists are aware holds no water, and regarding BVR we have caught you up, and with the AMRAAM 120-C5 have the most advanced BVR missile in the subcontinent.


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## Rafi

Some people from the eastern entity are having to learn to swallow a bitter pill, in that the Pakistani Armed Forces hold a clear and present edge in C4I.

A posse ad esse non valet consequentia -


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## SQ8

Rafi said:


> Some people from the eastern entity are having to learn to swallow a bitter pill, in that the Pakistani Armed Forces hold a clear and present edge in C4I.
> 
> A posse ad esse non valet consequentia -



Optimum est pati quod emendare non possis.
and I have given up on doing the above because its non Gradus Anus Rodentum.


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## Rafi

In Vino Veritas - I look forward to having a cold one with you bro

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## RPK

Tata Group | Tata companies | Tata Sons | Articles | Tata battalions ready for action


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## RPK

GeoIntelligence May-June 2010: Geospatial solutions: Geointelligence is key in precision warfare

Geospatial solutions: Geointelligence is key in precision warfare

KK Singh
KK Singh
CMD
Rolta India Ltd
Rolta is the leader in providing geospatial solutions for defence establishments in the country addressing the complete requirements in the sensor-to-shooter chain. Can you elaborate on the kind of products and solutions offered by Rolta?
Militaries across the globe have realised that it is not the number of forces that ensures victory, but the side which harnesses technology as enabling force multiplier. India is also looking to rapidly modernise its armed forces to derive maximum benefit from state-of-the-art, cutting edge military technology and has increased its budget for defence and homeland security segments significantly.

Rolta is indeed a leader in providing geospatial solutions and has been working with the Indian defence forces for more than two decades now and commands over 95&#37; of their geospatial segment. Rolta is uniquely positioned to offer solutions covering the entire range of command, control, communications, surveillance, target acquisition and reconnaissance (C4ISTAR) systems to meet the most stringent requirements of defence forces. The tremendous insights gained from close proximity support in conflict zones under extremely demanding conditions have led Rolta to evolve its offerings into a range of C4ISTAR solutions to address the entire spectrum of challenges faced by defence and security agencies.

Rolta C4ISTAR range of solutions include battlefield management systems for field units and higher echelons, multi-sensor data fusion systems to fuse inputs from various ground and air based sensors and present a coherent intelligence picture (CIP) to the decision makers, Miltrak & Soldier Radio systems to provide situational awareness capability in the battlefield down to the soldiers organised in companies, platoons and sections.

Rolta is rich in intellectual property (IP). This is an important differentiation. Indian defence is populated with our IP. We serve the needs of our customer without worrying about the cost factor. The Indian government, defence and homeland security agencies feel comfortable dealing with a company which is Indian and which has ownership of technology with them.

Modern war has three distinct levels &#8212; strategy, operational art and tactics. Can spatial intelligence play a pr ominent role in each of these levels and how?
Whether it is war or peace, geospatial information is essential for an intelligent and updated situational awareness at all levels. Any strategic decision related to movement of assets is assisted by geospatial information. Commanders can build scenarios for location of assets, such that they are easy accessible and resources can be speedily mobilised in case of outbreak of war or situations like natural or man-made calamities, acts of terrorism or insurgency.

Military commanders of all modern armies working in &#8216;digital&#8217; battlefield environment utilise geospatial information of &#8216;intelligent&#8217; maps and geospatial data as the foundation, on which they operate the C4ISTAR solutions to make effective command and control decisions, be it in strategic, operational or tactical context. At tactical level, soldiers upwards to their commanders at section, platoon, company and battalion level, are inter-connected and together see the common operations picture (COP) on a near real-time basis based on the geospatial backbone.

Such multiple tactical battlefield management systems at battalion level are further connected at the operational level to the higher level battlefield management system being operated by headquarters at brigade, division and corps. At strategic level of corps, command and army headquarters use geospatial intelligence system in a networked environment where a comprehensive and complete view of the theatre of operations is made available for strategising and monitoring the operations.

Network-centric warfare is increasingly used today. How do you see the changing way wars are fought and what is in stor e for the future?
Yes, the era of network-centric warfare is here with its precision sensors, battlefield management systems and effectors. For example, during the war in Iraq, high precision technologies were deployed to minimise civilian casualty. Military commanders are increasingly moving towards integrated C4ISTAR solutions to make effective command and control decisions in the &#8216;digital&#8217; battlefield environment.

All nations are currently on the road to digitisation, transforming their armed forces into a coherent and synchronised organisation, enhancing the speed of sensing, decision making and proactive action, beating the enemies in &#8216;observe orient decide and act&#8217; &#8211; OODA cycle. Today, it is possible to network digitised platforms and soldiers into a coherent sensor-command-shooter grid, with sensors, weapon systems, decision makers and shooters/actors connected with state-of-the-art communication systems.

Apart from the conventional war, anti-nationals like Naxals are creating new and asymmetrical threats. Low intensity conflicts between terrorists/anti-national elements are growing all over the world and India is one of the worst affected countries. Beyond conventional methods of engagement, security forces across the world are now required to actively counter terrorism, insurgency and other such homeland security operations. C4ISTAR systems configured to these specific needs can bring efficiency to sensor-to-action chain.

Rolta&#8217;s Geosptial Fusion offers a decision support system for security agencies. Can you elaborate on its functionality?
Security is more than protection from terrorist attacks. It means protecting life, property and critical infrastructure from any disaster. Rolta&#8217;s Geospatial Fusion enables multi-source data collection, integration, analysis and dissemination (data fusion from disparate databases) and supports over 200 non-geospatial database types. This solution provides the power to bring information together from various systems including legacy systems. Automated systems of various agencies like police, national and State intelligence agencies, municipal corporations, transport departments and hospitals can all be brought on to the same platform to provide a common operational picture for decision making and action.

Automation and real-time imaging analysis is the need of the hour for rapid mapping and feature extraction, change detection and assisted target detection and recognition. Is India catching up with these latest technological requirements?
Absolutely. India is very much catching up with these technologies. India&#8217;s fast growing economy has led to an increased spending in defence and homeland security segments, year on year. A quantum jump is expected in defence CAPEX spending, which is likely to touch 50 billion USD over the next few years.

The need for rapid modernisation of the army, navy and air force has resulted in the government allocating a large budget for the year 2010-22 to Rs 147, 344 crore with about 40% allocated for capital acquisition budget &#8211; for new acquisitions, clearly indicating the trend towards modernising the defence sector.

India is investing in systems for multi-sensor data fusion, automated change detection including feature extraction, mission planning, GIS and MIS info exchange and image exploitation. Armed forces have initiated several modernisation programmes including soldier systems, radios, GPS tracking, night vision goggles, night vision weapon sights, automated minefield recording systems and thermal imaging fire control systems for tanks.






Besides, key projects are also being launched in maritime safety and security space for coastal surveillance by coastal police, national AIS by DG light house and light ships, vessel traffic management systems by various ports, night navigator system for high speed boat by Coast Guard, amongst others. Rolta is ready with solutions to address these modernisation needs with state-of-the-art technology, brought in from its foreign collaborators and its own R&D facility. With 20 years of domain knowledge in the country, Rolta has further customised and modified the solutions to enhance its usability in the Indian context. There is a tremendous momentum among internal security agencies after 26/11 to lap up latest technologies. Many States like Rajasthan J&K, Maharashtra are using our homeland security solutions. The real effect of a homogenous system will be felt only after some more time though.

GIS Development is launching a dedicated publication for defence and internal security community.
Defence and homeland security are the key for the survival of a nation, more so for a country like India, which is developing at a fast pace. Today, India&#8217;s GDP has touched 1 trillion USD after 63 years of independence. But in the next 10 years, India&#8217;s GDP is expected to touch 3-4 trillion and 5-6 trillion in 15 years. This is possible only when the country remains on a peaceful path of growth. GeoIntelligence magazine comes at the right time to create more awareness about the use of geospatial technologies in defence and internal security aspects. This is a laudable step.

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## RPK

Powered by Google Docs


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## RPK

PIB Press Release

*Tactical Battlefield Communication System to be in Place Soon, Says Pallam Raju*


The Minister of State for Defence Shri MM Pallam Raju has said that the Indian Armed Forces will soon have in place a Tactical Battlefield Communication system. Inaugurating a two day seminar on "Converged Infostructure for a Transformed Force" here today, Shri Pallam Raju said that the Tactical Communication System (TCS), a project of the Corps of Signals, is well on the way after some initial delays.

Calling upon the private industry to partner with the Armed Forces, Shri Pallam Raju said that the TCS "is being progressed under the 'Make' category and provides the Indian Industry an excellent opportunity to seek its share of defence production". Underling that the defence equipment manufacturers and development agencies cannot leave the mission critical performance to chance, he asked the industry to set up state-of-the-art testing facility for quality assurance.

In view of the distinct strength of the Indian I&CT industry, Shri Pallam Raju said that the Armed Forces expect "substantial participation by the private sector". "In order to synergise and enhance the national competence in producing globally competitive defence equipment without time and cost overruns, the government is exploring all viable initiatives such as formation of consortia, joint ventures and public-private partnerships", he said.

In his address, the Chief of Army Staff General VK Singh said that the battle space is slowly but surely shifting from Platform Centric to Network Centric Warfare. "A strong, robust and secure information grid is therefore a prerequisite for this. The information grid must always act as a force multiplier and an enabler for the soldier as well as the Commander in the battlefield", he said.

The Army Chief said that the drive towards network-centricity began a few years ago and has already been operationalised. "Once equipped, I see our Armed Forces increasingly harnessing the power of data and voice networks to blend decision makers, sensors and shooters into an efficient and lethal mix of flexible, coordinated and a fast moving combat force that uses information as a weapon to strike with pinpoint precision, and bring unprecedented firepower to bear with a much smaller strength in numbers", he said.

The Signal Officer-in-Chief Lt Gen P Mohapatra cautioned that the newer technologies also increased vulnerabilities of the forces. "Security must therefore remain a key central issue to the transformation process", he said.

The proceedings of the two-day seminar are being webcast live on the Army Intranet and video conference with the Command Headquarters. The seminar also showcases the rich history of the Corps of Signals, which is celebrating its Centenary this year.


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## silent hawk

@rpraveenkum

Thankyou sir for your valuable contributions to this thread.

As mentioned in almost all your posts these systems are underdevelopment and part of India's program to upgrade the armed forces.

The reasons for this recent increase in development have also been discussed.

As mentioned India was able to do almost nothing after the terrorist attacks in the Indian Parliment and Mumbai. This not only shows helplessness but also encourages further such attacks by the perpatrators. This for India which is seeking Super power status is clearly unacceptable. 

The more Indian posts I read on this thread the more I am convinced that India is trying to acquire the capability to inflict pain and punishment on Pakistan if and when required.


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## SQ8

@silent hawk..
lets keep motivations for doing whatever off the thread..We barely saved it from going down the drain.

What remains to be seen.. is at what timeframe will these systems be operational.. both in the PAF and IAF...and since it is prudent for most military projects to start working on the replacement the minute the system goes operational..The final tally will depend on resources..and developers.


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## silent hawk

santro said:


> @silent hawk..
> lets keep motivations for doing whatever off the thread..We barely saved it from going down the drain.
> 
> What remains to be seen.. is at what timeframe will these systems be operational.. both in the PAF and IAF...and since it is prudent for most military projects to start working on the replacement the minute the system goes operational..The final tally will depend on resources..and developers.



I totally agree with you sir. Unfortunately most of the organizations in Pakistan are at the moment focused on developing their own systems and are completely neglecting the area of resource especially human resource development.

Infact at present they cannot even maintain the few resources who through primarily their own endeavors have gained some knowledge of this domain.

That is why your organization in important because you are developing systems and the resources required in future. That is the difference of putting Engineers in charge.

As far as the project is concerned Allah willing it shall be a great success.


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## silent hawk

The Indians are very fast at putting their achievents on the net. Then all of them start reffering to unauthentic sites such as Wikipedia to praise there nation.(please look at the wikipedia disclaimer)

Pakistan has done so much in this field yet so little of it has been made available to Public. One of the reasons for this obviously is that in Pakistan the armed forces are heavily involved in development of the systems and they want to keep things secret.

I think that it is time that Pakistan should share it's achievements in the field of C4I. It could be source of pride just like the JF-17.


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## notorious_eagle

silent hawk said:


> The Indians are very fast at putting their achievents on the net. Then all of them start reffering to unauthentic sites such as Wikipedia to praise there nation.(please look at the wikipedia disclaimer)
> 
> *Pakistan has done so much in this field yet so little of it has been made available to Public. One of the reasons for this obviously is that in Pakistan the armed forces are heavily involved in development of the systems and they want to keep things secret.
> 
> I think that it is time that Pakistan should share it's achievements in the field of C4I. It could be source of pride just like the JF-17*.



I would rather prefer Pakistan kept its capabilities hidden, best to keep the enemy guessing than showcasing your capabilities. C4I is not the only achievement of PAF, you would be surprised what other hidden capabilities PAF has in store for the enemy but obviously i am not at the liberty of discussing these with you on the open forum. PAF is fully a net centric organization now, lots of resources has been spent on making this happen. PA will be net centric in the next 2-3 years, their is a reason why PA right now is hiring many operators for this field. Some of my friends whom were computer geniuses were hired by PA and they are already working hard in this field. Overall, i would say Pakistan's Armed Forces as a whole are very secret organizations, they keep a lot of their capabilities hidden from the outside world, and in my opinion that is the best policy to move forward. Hardware or Software purchased from Western Nations is difficult to hide but Pakistan has purchased a lot of systems from Ukraine, South Africa, Brazil, Czech and especially China that has been kept under the radar. When your enemy is 10 times bigger than you, the element of surprise goes a long way in deterring her aggression.


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## silent hawk

A balance needs to be maintained.

Disclosing things reduces the element of surprise.

Keeping things secret reduces public opinion which is important for a state like India. Now some Indians know about Pakistans advanced C4I system they may tell others. It helps them understand why their government choose not to attack Pakistan in 2008.

Like so many things this is a typical LQR problem. The right balance is required between disclosing and keeping things secret. At present I feel we are being too secretive.


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## RPK

*Tactical Battlefield Communication System for Indian Armed Forces*







The Minister of State for Defence Shri MM Pallam Raju has said that the Indian Armed Forces will soon have in place a Tactical Battlefield Communication system. Inaugurating a two day seminar on "Converged Info-structure for a Transformed Force" here today, Shri Pallam Raju said that the Tactical Communication System (TCS), a project of the Corps of Signals, is well on the way after some initial delays.

Calling upon the private industry to partner with the Armed Forces, Shri Pallam Raju said that the TCS "is being progressed under the 'Make' category and provides the Indian Industry an excellent opportunity to seek its share of defence production". Underling that the defence equipment manufacturers and development agencies cannot leave the mission critical performance to chance, he asked the industry to set up state-of-the-art testing facility for quality assurance.

In view of the distinct strength of the Indian I&CT industry, Shri Pallam Raju said that the Armed Forces expect "substantial participation by the private sector". "In order to synergise and enhance the national competence in producing globally competitive defence equipment without time and cost overruns, the government is exploring all viable initiatives such as formation of consortia, joint ventures and public-private partnerships", he said.

In his address, the Chief of Army Staff General V.K. Singh said that the battle space is slowly but surely shifting from Platform Centric to Network Centric Warfare. "A strong, robust and secure information grid is therefore a prerequisite for this. The information grid must always act as a force multiplier and an enabler for the soldier as well as the Commander in the battlefield", he said.

The Army Chief said that the drive towards network-centricity began a few years ago and has already been operationalised. "Once equipped, I see our Armed Forces increasingly harnessing the power of data and voice networks to blend decision makers, sensors and shooters into an efficient and lethal mix of flexible, coordinated and a fast moving combat force that uses information as a weapon to strike with pinpoint precision, and bring unprecedented firepower to bear with a much smaller strength in numbers", he said.

The Signal Officer-in-Chief Lt Gen P Mohapatra cautioned that the newer technologies also increased vulnerabilities of the forces. "Security must therefore remain a key central issue to the transformation process", he said.

The proceedings of the two-day seminar are being web-cast live on the Army Intranet and video conference with the Command Headquarters. The seminar also showcases the rich history of the Corps of Signals, which is celebrating its Centenary this year. 

Tactical Battlefield Communication System for Indian Armed Forces | India Defence

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## silent hawk

^^^ Thank you once again sir for your contributions.


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## silent hawk

If anyone has any more info on Pakistani systems please post. Soon I shall be analyzing the Pakistani C4I systems.


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## paritosh

Rafi said:


> *ECOM SQPS is a multiplier that a commando needs. The success of a squad behind enemy lines may just depend on this. After a para-drop from the plane inside hostile territory you must know where you and your squad are vis-à-vis the objective. SQPS is a personnel electronic map positioning system, the commander wears it on his belt. On a small portable color screen, he can view the map of the area, his objective, his own position and that of his entire squad. A miniature GPS sensor on the shoulder of every commando establishes his position, which is electronically transmitted to the commander and displayed on hand computer via the squad radio. The entire mission is programmed in the map on the commanders hand computer overlaid on the geographic map of the area. Being evaluated by the SSG, SSGN, SSW, SOTF and will then be introduced to regular infantry formations.*



the infantry man's hand-held integrated computer when first inducted into the Indian army...gave the jawan a scare...
the semi-literate jawans could not understand and operate the marking and following of GPS coordinates...
the people from the signals regiment and other enggs in the army conduct seminars and workshops for acclimatizing the jawan with these gadgets of this day and age...but they face a problem here...
it'd take a lot of time before these hi-fi gadgets get truly operational and beneficial in the armed forces of India and Pakistan...


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## paritosh

Rafi said:


> We are streets ahead of india in networked warfare, this has been proven through open sources  Your claim that your strategists are aware holds no water, and regarding BVR we have caught you up, and with the *AMRAAM 120-C5 have the most advanced BVR missile in the subcontinent*.



any basis for that claim?on paper the R-77 appears to be a better weapon based on it's range and it's maneuverability...
besides..your BVR planes are very limited...and so are the number of your planes...


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## silent hawk

paritosh said:


> any basis for that claim?on paper the R-77 appears to be a better weapon based on it's range and it's maneuverability...
> besides..your BVR planes are very limited...and so are the number of your planes...



There can be little doubt that on paper the adder and the amraam are closely matched. It is once again C4I which gives Pakistan the edge.

Link 16 Tactical Data Link






The link-16 is better than anything the Indians have because it can integrate with all ground and air based sensors. This enables the F-16 to pick up the target earlier. After launching the missile the F-16 can turn away and the AMRAAM can be updated using data from the Link-16. This not only gives the F-16 a very high off boresight capability but also allows it to achieve the largest possible F-Pole.

IAF has the advantage in Quantity but PAF is ahead in Quality.


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## IND151

IAF IS UPGRADING ITSELF LOT.SO IAF WILL BE STRENGTHENED.


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## rockstarIN

silent hawk said:


> There can be little doubt that on paper the adder and the amraam are closely matched. It is once again C4I which gives Pakistan the edge.
> 
> Link 16 Tactical Data Link
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The link-16 is better than anything the Indians have because it can integrate with all ground and air based sensors. This enables the F-16 to pick up the target earlier. After launching the missile the F-16 can turn away and the AMRAAM can be updated using data from the Link-16. This not only gives the F-16 a very high off boresight capability but also allows it to achieve the largest possible F-Pole.
> 
> IAF has the advantage in Quantity but PAF is ahead in Quality.




Few details about Su-30 MKI

MKI fitted with Sextant Avionique's avionics from France, liquid crystal multi-function displays (MFDs), a new flight data recorder, a dual ring laser gyro INS (inertial navigation system) with embedded GPS (Global Positioning Satellite), *EW (Electronic Warfare) equipment procured from Israel's IAI (Israeli Aircraft Industries), a new electro-optical targeting system and a RWR (Radar Warning Receiver). *


The navigation equipment is based on a 7 channel GPS and ring-laser Inertial Navigation System (INS), an integration of systems produced by Honeywell, Raytheon and General Dynamics. The TACAN is provided by Rockwell, which also provides the ARC-217 HF radio. BAE Systems is providing the ILS system and an advanced IFF transponder/interrogator. which improves the operation of the aircraft beyond visual range, and enable safe employment of long range A/A missiles. The communications equipment is based on an integrated voice/data system, that incorporates RAFAEL's Green Radio, a localized and improved version of the Rockwell Collins ARC-210 VHF/UHF radio, equipped with a data modem, and an advanced data-link system, produced by IAI/MLM. These classified systems are believed to be more advanced to Link 16, offer integrated, secured and jam-resistant communications was designed to provide instantaneous high quality, high capacity communication between surface and air elements. 



Came across with these details from some forum, do not know the correctness..


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## satishkumarcsc

silent hawk said:


> There can be little doubt that on paper the adder and the amraam are closely matched. It is once again C4I which gives Pakistan the edge.
> 
> Link 16 Tactical Data Link
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The link-16 is better than anything the Indians have because it can integrate with all ground and air based sensors. This enables the F-16 to pick up the target earlier. After launching the missile the F-16 can turn away and the AMRAAM can be updated using data from the Link-16. This not only gives the F-16 a very high off boresight capability but also allows it to achieve the largest possible F-Pole.
> 
> IAF has the advantage in Quantity but PAF is ahead in Quality.



But we are developing our own ODL with IAI 

domain-b.com : IAI bags contract for IAF's pilot operational data link project


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## rockstarIN

satishkumarcsc said:


> But we are developing our own ODL with IAI
> 
> domain-b.com : IAI bags contract for IAF's pilot operational data link project



If we are getting the system which they use in Sufa, then it is much more upgraded than Link-16 and more resistable to jamming.

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## IND151

Indian Air Force now a net-centric combat force


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## IND151

*"IAF has taken up a mandate to create and maintain an assured, dedicated, secure and inter-operable communication network along with associated services to provide real time, instantaneous transfer of information between Sensors, Command and Control (C2) centres and Shooters," the release said. 

In addition, IAF aspires to use communication network and IT-enabled infrastructure for all other operational, techno-logistics and administrative functions to leverage development in this field to enhance efficiency, cost-effectiveness and ease of administration, it said. 

The spokesperson said all major formations and static establishments had been linked through a secure Wide Area Network (WAN) and were accessible through data communication lines. 

The nationwide programme was launched by the IAF in collaboration with the private industry to accelerate the use of Information Technology (IT) as well as to link all field units using a dedicated satellite. 

"AFNET incorporates the latest traffic transportation technology in form of IP (Internet Protocol) packets over the network using Multi Protocol Label Switching (MPLS). A large VoIP (Voice over Internet Protocol) layer with stringent quality of service enforcement will facilitate robust, high quality voice, video and conferencing solutions," he said. *


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## Rafi

paritosh said:


> any basis for that claim?on paper the R-77 appears to be a better weapon based on it's range and it's maneuverability...
> besides..your BVR planes are very limited...and so are the number of your planes...



Pretty much all of our front line fighter aircraft will be BVR missile capable. How many kills has r-77 achieved versus Amraam.


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## Rafi

*C4I AND AIR DEFENCE AUTOMATION SYSTEM


Category : C4-1 Air Defence Automation System
Manufacturer : GIDS
Detail

The Air Defense Automation System has been indigenously developed by Air Weapons Complex (AERO). The designed system collects information from all Air Defense sensors and radars, processes it, converts it into a standard format and displays it in real time at any desired location. The system architecture is independent of space, time and communication medium. The Command and Control System provides an environment for multiple functions to operate on the same hardware platform and share data via a Local Area Network (LAN) or a Wide Area Network (WAN).
The System allows the Commander to a view a fused picture of his complete Area Of Responsibility (AOR). It is a compilation of data from all Air Defense sensors, combined with battle plan, projection overlays, and any other data that is available, including:
current locations and planned movement operations of ground, maritime and air units of friendly, neutral, and enemy forces generated features and projections (e.g. battle plans, operating zones).
Our engineers work closely with the customers to provide them customized, open, flexible and cost-effective solutions to their Air Defense Automation System requirements. AERO provides comprehensive Integrated Logistic Support (ILS) throughout the life cycle of the System.
SALIENT FEATURES

Seamless integration with C4I systems.
Network centric design allowing self-forming and self-healing network (user can enter or leave the network dynamically).
Complete Air Situation Display (ASD).
User friendly and compact Graphical User Interface.
The System can be operated in different modes (Operator, Commander etc.)
Personnel training under simulation mode.
Scenario recording and replay facility.
Communication with lower and higher command centers.
Advanced GIS support.
Multiple layer architecture (Display of multiple maps).
Map features e.g. map loading, map editing, map color changing etc.
Preset and programmable zoom buttons.
Display of Latitude/Longitude, Georef and Grid System.
True battlefield scenario support.
Display of track history during interception operation. User can switch on/off history of track.
Track symbol indicating its category.
Track type indicates the threat status of the track.
Tactical interception aids available.
Radar on/off option.
Aircraft Plot Suppression Area (PSA).
Non-automatic track initiation area.
Weapons (SAM/AAA) status monitoring.
Use of commercial technologies.
Ergonomically designed Command and Control Console.
Easy maintenance.
MULTIPLE RADAR TRACKER 
Multi Radar Tracker (MRT) uses state-of-the-art tracking algorithms to detect and track all modern, fast and highly maneuverable targets, hence forming an integral part of C4I and Air Defense Automation System. It works effectively in high clutter environments and displays real time information for any command & control function. It can handle 2000 plots and 1000 tracks. This capability can be further enhanced due to scalable design of the Tracker. It can be integrated simultaneously with homogenous and heterogeneous radars.
The Tracker automatically initiates and reliably tracks maneuvering targets. The tracks initiation and maneuvering detection is enhanced with multiple sensors. The trackers update the display information at a high rate to form a true, accurate and complete Air Situation Display (ASD) for all air-defense and air-traffic control operations.

The main functions of the MRT algorithm include:

Inferring the presence of valid targets from a series of plots and tracks received from different radars.
Calculating optimally by the sensor the true trajectories of the target in presence of uncertainties imposed by the sensor as well as aircraft dynamics.
Recognizing and rejecting false targets.
Successfully tracking and predicting the optimal estimates of the target in the presence of clutter and false alarms.
Displaying target tracking information.
Forming correct association between tracks and observation from radars in different environment.
Successfully tracking the target during extreme conditions of fast maneuver, formations, miss detection, cross-overs etc.
Fusing information from multiple radars of different ranges, resolutions, scan times and other radars parameters.
Analyzing the influence of sensor modeling, radar processor design, and change of other system parameters on algorithm design.*


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## Rafi

The Sakb and the Al Khalid and Al Zarrar main battle tanks are all being equipped with the Integrated Battlefield Management System (IBMS), a system to track friendly and enemy positions similar to the US Army's Blue Force Tracking. 

The IBMS uses VHF and UHF communications and each vehicle can act as a relay. The integration of the systems is already under way and is scheduled to be finished by December, said Mohsin Rahmatullah, director of business development, which developed the IBMS together with HIT. The hardware from the system may be exported, most likely first to the United Arab Emirates, Rahmatullah said. 
'HIT's vehicle showcase' (JDW 25 September 2002)

*THAT WAS 8 YEARS AGO, BY THE WAY, SO THIS SYSTEM HAS ALREADY BEEN UPDATED.*

---------- Post added at 01:14 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:13 AM ----------


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## Rafi

paritosh said:


> the infantry man's hand-held integrated computer when first inducted into the Indian army...gave the jawan a scare...
> the semi-literate jawans could not understand and operate the marking and following of GPS coordinates...
> the people from the signals regiment and other enggs in the army conduct seminars and workshops for acclimatizing the jawan with these gadgets of this day and age...but they face a problem here...
> it'd take a lot of time before these hi-fi gadgets get truly operational and beneficial in the armed forces of India and Pakistan...



The Pak Army has simplified the hand held for use of ordinary Jawans using icons and help software, so far the Special Forces love it, because it allows the Commander a tactical advantage and is proving essential for missions. This system is being introduced slowly as a force of more than half a million stretches resources.


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## Rafi

This is an actual PAF C4I Centre - where is the photographic proof of an indian equivalent, if our indian friends cannot provide one, then it is quite clear that india is behind us in C4I. I have also provided evidence on systems in the Tanks and Special Forces that are for the Army, the Navy is also introducing net centric warfare capabilities.

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## paritosh

silent hawk said:


> There can be little doubt that on paper the adder and the amraam are closely matched. It is once again C4I which gives Pakistan the edge.
> 
> Link 16 Tactical Data Link
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The link-16 is better than anything the Indians have because it can integrate with all ground and air based sensors. This enables the F-16 to pick up the target earlier. After launching the missile the F-16 can turn away and the AMRAAM can be updated using data from the Link-16. This not only gives the F-16 a very high off boresight capability but also allows it to achieve the largest possible F-Pole.
> 
> IAF has the advantage in Quantity but PAF is ahead in Quality.



that pic shows the standard usage of awacs...
it's the job of the awacs systems to guide the pilots and missiles on to the target...most BVR missiles have guidance in stages...
the first stage they are guided by the plane's on-board radar...in the second stage they switch to their own seeker...if they have one...and in the third..they use laser or radio waves for a proximity blast...
using awacs the first stage of the missiles flight is out-sourced to the awacs...
now tell me how is the aim-120 better than the r-77?
or that we lack in C4I?
ar you also bringing in the capabilities of the erieye and the phalcon into this comparative analysis?
please refrain from using open-ended statements while comparing things..


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## paritosh

Rafi said:


> Pretty much all of our front line fighter aircraft will be BVR missile capable. How many kills has r-77 achieved versus Amraam.



i dont know you tell me?
how many kills has the amraam had versus the r-77??


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## rockstarIN

Rafi said:


> Pretty much all of our front line fighter aircraft will be BVR missile capable. How many kills has r-77 achieved versus Amraam.



R-77 is available with few countries for long time

* India 
* Russia 
* Slovakia 
* Ukraine 
* Peru
* People's Republic of China

No countries in the above list went on war with anybody, so there is no application of this weapon system.

Meanwhile few more countries getting this weapon with Su-27 & Mig-29SMT sales.


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## paritosh

Rafi said:


> The Sakb and the Al Khalid and Al Zarrar main battle tanks are all being equipped with the Integrated Battlefield Management System (IBMS), a system to track friendly and enemy positions similar to the US Army's Blue Force Tracking.


the arjun, the T-90 and the T-72s use a battle filed management system developed by DRDO and Israel's Ebit which designed BMS for the merkava.

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## paritosh

Rafi said:


> The Pak Army has simplified the hand held for use of ordinary Jawans using icons and help software, so far the Special Forces love it, because it allows the Commander a tactical advantage and is proving essential for missions. This system is being introduced slowly as a force of more than half a million stretches resources.



the special forces would know how to use anything...
the ordinary jawans who are semi-literates need training to even open the help tabs...!
it seems your sole motive is to just prove the Pakistani superiority in everything...


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## paritosh

read about this system...

*Delhi Police selects Barco for city&#8217;s first C4I Surveillance Center*

*New Delhi, 18 August 2010 &#8211; HCL Security Ltd. &#8211; a subsidiary of HCL Infosystems, India's premier systems integration company &#8211; has chosen Barco to be the visualization partner in a prestigious project to set up a new C4i (Command, Control, Communication, Computing and Intelligence) center in Delhi. The project, due to be completed this month, is to provide a highly sophisticated surveillance system for communication with Delhi patrol officers during the Commonwealth Games 2010.
&#8220;We selected Barco for its state-of-the-art solution, advanced technology and local service and support. We appreciate Barco's quick response and efforts to execute this project on time, and we look forward to working on more projects with them in the future,&#8221; said Mr. Rothin Bhattacharya, CEO, HCL Security Ltd.

The C4i center will benefit from Barco's latest LED-based technology, consisting of sixteen 50&#8221; display cubes along with two 46&#8221; Narrow-bezel LCD monitors and the state-of-the-art control room management suite. Nearly 1000 police control room (PCR) vans, 12 police video monitoring vehicles and 700 other monitoring vehicles are to be linked to the center. Live feeds from cameras will be displayed at the center, and threat information &#8211; color-coded in red, yellow or green, according to the severity of the threat &#8211; will be flashed across the screens. Any suspicious movement, or an emergency, will be spotted at the center and relayed to the local police.

&#8220;Barco's technology is being used to ensure the safety of people in more than 100 metropolitan areas throughout the world. We are proud and honored to contribute to the safety of Delhi during the Commonwealth Games 2010,&#8221; said Mr. Nalin Advani, Managing Director, Barco India.

About HCL Security Ltd.
Part of the $5 billion HCL Enterprise, HCL Security Ltd. focuses on key verticals of homeland security (city security, border security, and coastal security), critical infrastructure (airports, mass transport, power, shipping ports, and oil pipelines), and enterprise security. The company provides a set of customized world-class solutions that leverage technology to create an Integrated Security Framework for government, infrastructure, and business organizations.

About Barco
Barco, a global technology company, designs and develops visualization products for a variety of selected professional markets. Barco has its own facilities for Sales & Marketing, Customer Support, R&D and Manufacturing in Europe, North America and Asia Pacific. Barco (NYSE Euronext Brussels: BAR) is active in more than 90 countries with about 3300 employees worldwide. Barco posted sales of 638 million euro in 2009.*


link:-http://www.barco.com/en/controlrooms/pressrelease/2586/
it seems even the Delhi Police deems C4I as a tool basic enough to be implemented...

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## grace

good thread...
this be of something useful ??...FROM janes

Army Radio Engineered Network (AREN) (India), Communication systems - Land

Description 
AREN is a tactical area radio communications system that provides Indian ground forces with secure, computerised area grid communication network capabilities. It first entered service in the early 1990s and includes HF and VHF radios at various command levels, microprocessor-controlled radio relay systems and mobile analogue and digital microwave tropospheric scatter systems.A significant element of AREN is the Bharat Electronics Ltd (BEL) truck-mounted, shelterised trunk exchange known as the Automatic Electronic Switch (see entry Automatic Electronic Switch Mk-II). This can handle 192 digitised voice, 256 teleprinter and 32 digital data channels. The equipment's facilities include multilevel priority pre-emption, automatic disconnection of defective or inactive teleprinters and data terminals and short-test good quality route selection.Other elements of AREN are understood to include the BEL Time Division Modular Exchange or TIDEX (see entry Time Division Modular Exchange (TIDEX)), the Data Concentrator (DC), the Radio Trunk System (RTS), the Radio Local System (RLS) and the Digital Trunk Concentrator (DTC).The DC is a statistical multiplex and concentrator designed to enhance the data communication capability of AREN. It additionally provides data communication integration between the Army Static Switched Communication Network or ASCON (see entry ASCON) and AREN. It can be operated independently to provide data communication connectivity to a large number of subscribers spread over an extended area.The RTS was designed to support commanders in the field. A tactical, digital duplex mobile system comparable to a cellular network, the DTC provides connectivity for 12 subscribers a distance of up to 20 km (in association

Status 
AREN has been in service since the early 1990s. The RLS was developed in the early 1990s. The DC underwent user trials in mid-1999.AREN is understood to have been integrated with the Indian Army's Automatic Message Switching/Handling System (AMSS) and Army Static Communication Network (ASCON, see separate entry). In 2005 it was reported that AREN was being supplemented by the construction of a cellular network for field formations.AREN is being replaced by the Tactical Communication System (TCS). The AMSS is being replaced by the Army Wide Area Network (AWAN).It is reported that the TCS is designed as a system meant for offensive operations, and will comprise trunk nodes such as the key bandwidth carrier connection points, terminating at access nodes for Brigade-level communications. From there links will move forward to unit-level command posts at Company level. A number of suppliers have been associated with TCS, although as of the beginning of March 2010 no prime contractor had officially been nominated.

Army Radio Engineered Network (AREN) (India) - Jane's C4I Systems


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## Rafi

paritosh said:


> that pic shows the standard usage of awacs...
> it's the job of the awacs systems to guide the pilots and missiles on to the target...most BVR missiles have guidance in stages...
> the first stage they are guided by the plane's on-board radar...in the second stage they switch to their own seeker...if they have one...and in the third..they use laser or radio waves for a proximity blast...
> using awacs the first stage of the missiles flight is out-sourced to the awacs...
> now tell me how is the aim-120 better than the r-77?
> or that we lack in C4I?
> ar you also bringing in the capabilities of the erieye and the phalcon into this comparative analysis?
> please refrain from using open-ended statements while comparing things..



If you check the Erieye video, you would realise that the Link 16 is a data link, which allows F16's to turn their radar off, and the AWAC uses its AESA radar to guide the AMRAAM in.


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## Rafi

paritosh said:


> the arjun, the T-90 and the T-72s use a battle filed management system developed by DRDO and Israel's Ebit which designed BMS for the merkava.



Any info or we just supposed to take your word for it.


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## silent hawk

paritosh said:


> that pic shows the standard usage of awacs...
> it's the job of the awacs systems to guide the pilots and missiles on to the target...most BVR missiles have guidance in stages...
> the first stage they are guided by the plane's on-board radar...in the second stage they switch to their own seeker...if they have one...and in the third..they use laser or radio waves for a proximity blast...
> using awacs the first stage of the missiles flight is out-sourced to the awacs...
> now tell me how is the aim-120 better than the r-77?
> or that we lack in C4I?
> ar you also bringing in the capabilities of the erieye and the phalcon into this comparative analysis?
> please refrain from using open-ended statements while comparing things..



Here this picture may explain things better sir. This gives the range of elements which can be integrated with Link-16



As I said before atleast on paper the R-77 and AIM-120 are compareable. The AIM-120 however has seen considerable combat and having a combat proven system is more advantageous.

My post however was about the Link 16. As Rafi has mentioned this allows our fighters to engage IAF without switching thier radar on. The main thing I wanted to show in the initial picture is all around display achieved due to the Link 16.

As the second picture shows the Link 16 also takes the F-16 picture to C4I systems and vica versa. This is a tremendous force multiplier.

IAF is developing its own tactical data link according to posts, however it shall be a long time before it can match the fully operational combat tested Link-16.

Simply sir this is another area where IAF is lacking in C4I.


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## rockstarIN

silent hawk said:


> Here this picture may explain things better sir. This gives the range of elements which can be integrated with Link-16
> 
> 
> 
> As I said before atleast on paper the R-77 and AIM-120 are compareable. The AIM-120 however has seen considerable combat and having a combat proven system is more advantageous.



Off topic but,

Not all fired AIM-120s hit the targets, a Iraqi Mig-25 evaded at least 5-6 ARMRAAMs to escape to Iran in the gulf war.

But R-77 never fired in a combat..


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## silent hawk

rockstar said:


> Off topic but,
> 
> Not all fired AIM-120s hit the targets, a Iraqi Mig-25 evaded at least 5-6 ARMRAAMs to escape to Iran in the gulf war.
> 
> But R-77 never fired in a combat..





> Operational History of AIM-120 From Wikipedia
> 
> The AMRAAM was used for the first time on 27 December 1992, when an USAF F-16D shot down an Iraqi MiG-25 that violated the southern no-fly-zone. AMRAAM gained a second victory in January 1993 when an Iraqi MiG-23 was shot down by a USAF F-16C.
> 
> The third combat use of the AMRAAM was in 1994, when a Republika Srpska Air Force J-21 Jastreb aircraft was shot down by a USAF F-16C that was patrolling the UN-imposed no-fly-zone over Bosnia. In that engagement at least 3 other Serbian aircraft were shot down by USAF F-16C fighters using AIM-9 missiles (see Banja Luka incident for more details). At that point three launches in combat resulted in three kills, resulting in the AMRAAM being informally named "slammer" in the second half of the 1990s.
> 
> In 1998 and 1999 AMRAAMs were again fired by USAF F-15 fighters at Iraqi aircraft violating the No-Fly-Zone, but this time they failed to hit their targets. During the spring of 1999, AMRAAMs saw their main combat action during Operation Allied Force, the Kosovo bombing campaign. Six Serbian MiG-29 were shot down by NATO (4 USAF F-15C, 1 USAF F-16C, 1 Dutch F-16A MLU), all of them using AIM-120 missiles (the kill by the F-16C may have happened due to friendly fire, from SA-7 MANPADS fired by Serbian infantry).[12]
> 
> As of mid 2008, the AIM-120 AMRAAM has shot down nine enemy aircraft (six MiG-29, one MiG-25, one MiG-23, and one Soko J-21 Jastreb).[12]
> 
> The AMRAAM was also involved in a friendly-fire incident when F-15 fighters patrolling the Southern No-Fly Zone inadvertently shot down a pair of U.S. Army Black Hawk helicopters.[13]
> 
> In early 2006 the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) ordered 500 AIM-120C-5 AMRAAM missiles as part of a $650 million F-16 ammunition deal to equip the PAF's F-16C/D Block 52+ and F-16A/B MLU fighters.
> 
> Pakistan Air Force get the first 3 F-16 Block 52+ on 3 July 2010 and 1st batch of AMRAAMs on 26 July 2010.[15]
> .



Some Migs have avoided it but a lot have not. The main target as can be seen have been Mig 29s

Every one has a right to his own opinion but really as far a combat proven systems do have an edge and hence the AIM-120 is better than the R-77.


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## rockstarIN

@Silent hawk,

So far I understand from here as well as from other sources C4I system concept basically a western war concept and it was tested and was successful in Gulf war and it is the US war doctrine to be network centric.

Regarding IAF systems, should remember India was in Soviet side and our most of the weapon systems are soviet oriented till 1990. 

After the gulf war and Soviet fall, we started to modernize each and every area, and the modern control systems evolved recently only, after 1990. You can see the changes in the communication era. For e.g our MKI is able to use GPS as well as Russia's Gloness systems. And in comparison with US, Russian communication system is not bad at all, remember they are the best in Anti Ballistic and space capabilities.

Rather India is a huge country , we do not need to be fully network centric, but in region wise, which is more practical and the only requirement. And there will be different levels of communication systems for the armed forces. BSNL is preparing an additional fiber optic network only for the Armed forces to use in case of emergency. 

Every country should have their own communication systems else it is prone to attack if the enemy knows the systems very well. 

What do you think of China? do they have C4I systems, may be they have their own systems rather than going for proven western systems along with their satellites linked to it, so is the case of Russia.


And finally, how much will it cost a full fledged C4I system to integrate? any idea?

It is not a rocket science to integrate, go thru the below..

Iraq ? Order for US made C4ISR systems

It will cost only $68 million, but it depends upon how big is the armed forces..

Regards,


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## rockstarIN

silent hawk said:


> Some Migs have avoided it but a lot have not. The main target as can be seen have been Mig 29s
> 
> Every one has a right to his own opinion but really as far a combat proven systems do have an edge and hence the AIM-120 is better than the R-77.



The Migs which was shot down by AIM was sitting ducks, they even do not aware that the missile is fired at them..All are very old sytems, though AIM was updated from time to time from the experiance learned from the combat.

Apart from that, R-77 has more range, have a duel passive seeker.(I read recently SD-10 incorporated the same )


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## rockstarIN

@Silent Hawk, 

Here is some details about our indigenous C4I system news...

*BEL to arrange technology demonstration of its C4ISR systems at Defexpo 2010*

BEL will arrange technology demonstration of its C4ISR capability at Defexpo 2010. It will show its Multi Sensor Data Fusion for Army application.

This system collects information from multiple sensors and carries out data alignment, data association and data fusion to introduce a new target / update an existing target in the system. The other is of the Correlation and Coastal Surveillance Security.

Among other products on display will be the Multi-Function HHTI HandHeld Thermal Imager (HHTI). It is a cooled Thermal Imager based integrated day / night sight with in-built eye-safe Laser Range Finder, Digital Magnetic Compass, Colour CCD and GPS. This equipment is capable of giving range, azimuth and elevation as also co-ordinates of the target. This is highly useful to the Infantry, Artillery and Mechanized Forces for effective engagement of targets.

BEL will also display a model of Akash, the guided missile air defence weapon system. The Akash Weapon System is a medium-range, surface-to-air missile system, which provides air defence against multifarious air threats to mobile, semi-mobile and static vulnerable forces and areas. It is among the best in the SAM class of weapon systems.

BEL is constantly innovating to manufacture state-of-the-art professional electronic equipment and components for the international as well as domestic markets. BEL manufactures a wide range of Military Communication Systems, Radars and Sonars, Naval Systems, Telecom & Broadcast Systems, Electronic Warfare Systems, Tank Electronics, Opto Electronics, Professional Electronic Components and Solar Powered Systems.

At Defexpo 2010, BEL will display selected products and equipment from its wide range which have very good export potential. BEL will also showcase its strengths in and facilities for world-class contract manufacturing.

http://www.defenseworld.net/go/defensenews.jsp?n=BEL to arrange technology demonstration of its C4ISR systems at Defexpo 2010&id=4126


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## silent hawk

rockstar said:


> @Silent hawk,
> 
> And finally, how much will it cost a full fledged C4I system to integrate? any idea?
> 
> It is not a rocket science to integrate, go thru the below..
> 
> Iraq ? Order for US made C4ISR systems
> 
> It will cost only $68 million, but it depends upon how big is the armed forces..
> 
> Regards,



The price shown is only for some C4I equipment. I will not be able to give a link for the data below so those who want to believe may and those who do not may not.

When PAF went for Pakistan Air Defence System 2000 (PADS 2000) first of the import option was tried out. The desired system was costing 1.2 Billion Dollars in 1999. Considering inflation you may work out the cost today. This is one major reason why Project Vision was tasked to indiginously develop PAFs C4I system.


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## silent hawk

rockstar said:


> The Migs which was shot down by AIM was sitting ducks, they even do not aware that the missile is fired at them..All are very old sytems, though AIM was updated from time to time from the experiance learned from the combat.



Dil go bahlaanay ke liay ye khial acha hai Ghalib.


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## silent hawk

rockstar said:


> @Silent Hawk,
> 
> Here is some details about our indigenous C4I system news...
> 
> *BEL to arrange technology demonstration of its C4ISR systems at Defexpo 2010*
> 
> BEL will arrange technology demonstration of its C4ISR capability at Defexpo 2010. It will show its Multi Sensor Data Fusion for Army application.
> 
> This system collects information from multiple sensors and carries out data alignment, data association and data fusion to introduce a new target / update an existing target in the system. The other is of the Correlation and Coastal Surveillance Security.
> 
> Among other products on display will be the Multi-Function HHTI HandHeld Thermal Imager (HHTI). It is a cooled Thermal Imager based integrated day / night sight with in-built eye-safe Laser Range Finder, Digital Magnetic Compass, Colour CCD and GPS. This equipment is capable of giving range, azimuth and elevation as also co-ordinates of the target. This is highly useful to the Infantry, Artillery and Mechanized Forces for effective engagement of targets.
> 
> BEL will also display a model of Akash, the guided missile air defence weapon system. The Akash Weapon System is a medium-range, surface-to-air missile system, which provides air defence against multifarious air threats to mobile, semi-mobile and static vulnerable forces and areas. It is among the best in the SAM class of weapon systems.
> 
> BEL is constantly innovating to manufacture state-of-the-art professional electronic equipment and components for the international as well as domestic markets. BEL manufactures a wide range of Military Communication Systems, Radars and Sonars, Naval Systems, Telecom & Broadcast Systems, Electronic Warfare Systems, Tank Electronics, Opto Electronics, Professional Electronic Components and Solar Powered Systems.
> 
> At Defexpo 2010, BEL will display selected products and equipment from its wide range which have very good export potential. BEL will also showcase its strengths in and facilities for world-class contract manufacturing.
> 
> http://www.defenseworld.net/go/defensenews.jsp?n=BEL to arrange technology demonstration of its C4ISR systems at Defexpo 2010&id=4126



As I have already mentioned in my analysis, there is no doubt that the IAF is upgrading its C4I system. The main thing is that they are ten years behind us. We started after Kargil you after Mumbai. Nobody does upgrades without a reason.


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## rockstarIN

silent hawk said:


> Dil go bahlaanay ke liay ye khial acha hai Ghalib.



I do not mind if ARMRAAM wins or R-77 wins, but this had been accepted by western itself.

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## paritosh

Rafi said:


> If you check the Erieye video, you would realise that the Link 16 is a data link, which allows F16's to turn their radar off, and the AWAC uses its AESA radar to guide the AMRAAM in.



which is true for all the awacs...!
there is no awacs without a data-link!!!
do you seriously need a video to understand that bro?
while the link-16 DL is a western DL we have russian data link aborad our planes and AWACS...that is why we faced a problem trying to link with the american awacs during the red-flag...
whatever you posted is standard awacs operation...
if you choose to compare the erieye and the phalcon...I'd rate the phalcon to be better as it has a 360 degree azimuth scan area...compared to the erieye's 120 degree on both the sides...
..:: India Strategic ::.. Military Aviation: AWACS: Watchdogs of the Skies


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## paritosh

silent hawk said:


> As I have already mentioned in my analysis, there is no doubt that the IAF is upgrading its C4I system. The main thing is that they are ten years behind us. We started after Kargil you after Mumbai. Nobody does upgrades without a reason.



ok again...that sense of optimism is out of place...
There is no source of comms better than fibre-optics for long range and laser for short range...we have them both...
there is no source of intel gathering and recon than satellites...we have 11 of them world renowned remote-sensing ones and at least two dedicated military ones... 
radars are paramount...there has been an analysis done already on this thread and it was realized by all that you did not hold any advantage what so ever...
so if there'd be any advantage it'd be ours to hold.
while you talk of imported chinese and american BMS...
we have already made our own indigenous ones...for arjun and t-90...
read...
*Shri. S. Sundaresh, is appointed as the Chief Controller R&D (ACE - Armament and Combat Engineering) with effect from 01 Nov 2009. He was leading the Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT) programme as Director, Combat Vehicles Research & Development Establishment (CVRDE), from 01 Sep 2005 till 24 March 2010. He has a rich experience in Project management and Technology management in the domain of Combat vehicles

After his graduation in Electrical Engineering from Madras University in 1971 and post graduation in Control Systems from Indian Institute of Technology Madras in 1973, he joined Naval Science and Technological Laboratory, Vishakapatnam in January 1974. During his tenure at NSTL from 1974 to 1986, he carried out the design and development of control and guidance systems for underwater weapons successfully. The roll and course control and guidance system of an anti-ship torpedo was productionised.

He moved to CVRDE, Avadi in 1986, where he was responsible for the Integrated Fire Control System (IFCS) for the Arjun MBT. He led the development of IFCS for Arjun MBT through successful weapon system trials and users acceptance. He received the DRDO Technology award for this contribution in 1996. He guided his team in the successful development of indigenous electro-hydraulic gun control system, gunnery training simulator and Battle Management System. He headed the LCA work centre at CVRDE since 1996 and successfully led his team in qualifying the Aircraft mounted Accessory gearbox and the hydraulic filters for the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA Tejas). He was nominated as the Chairman for the 'Soldier System Study Group' in 2002. He piloted a team of scientists from DRDO labs in this study and submitted a proposal for a multi lab DRDO Programme for the 'Soldier as a System'. *


an excerpt from...
DRDO
official drdo website.


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## SQ8

Here is something interesting.. rather old..a certain bloggers view of Pakistani Air defense modernization and status.
but of relevance here..although it might be a repost.

_So I sat down this afternoon and decided to wrap my head around the whole Pakistani air defense issue in light of the FC-1 purchase.

The issue as I see it is that the Pakistani Air Forces (and I am including their SAM network as part of the air forces, I don't think they all report to the PAF but it makes it simpler for the sake of talking about the overall air defense picture) currently lack a robust air defense capability.

Now, we're not talking about pilot skill, PAF vs. IAF inventories, or anything of that nature here. What I mean by that statement is that the current PAF lacks a serious long-range air defense network. Pakistan does possess a number of EW radar systems from various sources, and their EW picture is, for the most part, adequate. There is a concern that the radar picture could be muddled in some areas due to the uneven terrain found throughout the nation, but this can easily be rectified by employing an AEW&C aircraft, such as the Saab platform currently being purchased for the PAF. Personally, I would've preferred a larger platform with the ability to remain on station longer, perhaps one of the new *Chinese Y-8 models*, but the Saab platform is certainly not going to fall short in the radar performance category, so it should still be perfectly suitable for the needs of the PAF.

The real problem currently lies in the business end of the IADS network, the shooters. Let's examine the air picture first. 

The PAF currently has to rely on relatively short-legged, older technology aircraft for the most part (the F-16A does enjoy a bit of a range benefit over the F-7s), and they lack a BVR weapon. That means that any intruder with a BVR weapon will put the PAF interceptor pilot at a disadvantage. This is currently being rectified through the purchase and co-production of the FC-1, which will employ the Chinese SD-10 BVR AAM. An upgrade for the PAF F-16 fleet is also being sought, as well as at least 18 new Block 50/52 jets, complete with AIM-120 BVR AAM capability. So, the airborne intercept portion of the equation is being addressed.

The real problem lies with the ground-based SAM network. Pakistan currently relies on the Chinese HQ-2 for strategic air defense purposes. The problem is that there only appears to be one active HQ-2 site near Islamabad, located at 33&#176;32'40.80"N 73&#176;16'04.44"E. There have been claims of a second HQ-2 unit near Karachi, but there is currently no evidence suggesting that this unit is still active, as the site is not visible in overhead imagery. Given the fact that Karachi is not the capital, the equipment could be being held in storage or active reserve for deployment if needed, but for the sake of argument we will proceed with the assumption that only the northern site is active, as it is the only site that can be verified at this time._

Here is an image of the active HQ-2 site near Islamabad:







_The next image depicts the maximum range of the HQ-2, 35 kilometers. 35 kilometers is the range of the farthest-reaching HQ-2 variant, I am operating on the assumption that PAF missiles may have been upgraded or replaced over their service lives._






_Take note that the mountanous terrain to the east and southeast will affect radar performance and the system's effectiveness will be hampered to some degree in those areas, particularly at low altitudes.

The rest of the Pakistani SAM inventory consists of short-range tactical SAM systems best suited for a point defense or ground unit support role. Clearly, the SAM side of the Pakistani IADS needs to be addressed. Pakistan has shown interest in acquiring advanced Chinese-made SAM systems, including the FT-2000, which is a rather interesting passive homing weapon. Modern Chinese SAM systems should be just as effective as some of their Russian counterparts, as China has been importing some of the best SAM systems in the world from the Russians for years now and has likely taken the opportunity, as they are so often wont to do, to check things out and figure out just what makes them tick. S-300P technology no doubt aided in the development of the very similar HQ-9 strategic SAM system.

Before one sets about redesigning the Pakistani strategic SAM network, one must first consider the goals of the IADS. The goal of the Pakistani IADS should not be to turn Pakistan into a wholly denied parcel of airspace; that would require far too many SAM systems to effectively pull off. Rather, a strategic SAM network should be positioned to protect key infrastructure elements and the government, as well as key military facilities.

In order to defend these key sites, they must be identified. For the sake of this discussion, here is a preliminary list:

-Islamabad
-Khusab reactor complex
-Hyderabad
-Karachi

This list is by no means all inclusive, and is meant simply to illustrate the next point. Additionally, mobile missile facilities have been discounted as they would likely disperse in the event of a large scale conflict.

Alright, primary facilities have been identified. The next step is to identify a potential SAM system for use. *The ideal choice, given the nature of their relationship at the present time, would be for Pakistan to procure the 100 kilometer range HQ-9 system from China.* As can be seen by the following image, the placement of four HQ-9 units at the aforementioned locations would represent a substantial increase in the Pakistani strategic air defense capability:
_





_Any further strategic facilities or important locations could be defended by additional HQ-9 batteries, but two batteries at each site organized into two regiments, one north and one south, could provide the basis for a robust strategic SAM network.

That leaves the matter of point defense. While Pakistan may choose to procure a European system as they already have experience operating the short-range Crotale and RBS-70 systems, there is another option I would like to present.

Surface-launched AMRAAMs are being used by a few select nations as short/intermediate-range SAM systems. Pakistan has the opportunity here to develop a similar system in cooperation with the Chinese. The SD-10 could potentially form the basis of a very effective point defense system, as well as a system that could be placed covertly along potential threat aircraft ingress routes, particularly in the mountanous regions of the nation. 

The SD-10 is an active radar weapon, ostensibly needing no off-board targeting sensors provided the target can be locked on by the seeker head prior to launch. The way to get around that limitation is to provide a passive detection system based on the FT-2000's EW kit. This would allow for hostile target identification to be performed, and a few sensors positioned at the right locations could provide triangulation so as to enable the system to generate accurate target track data. Target altitudes could be generated by measuring the strength of an identified emission, or perhaps by an accurate EO or IR system. Once a track and an altitude have been identified, the parameters for a launch have been established. An SD-10 could be fired and even updated mid-course using continued examination of the track and altitude data, before going active at point-blank range to allow for the maximum amount of suprise (mid-course signals could, of course, be detected by a sensitive RWR kit, but it'd have to know what it was to classify it as hostile). 

The passive/active SD-10 system would be a cheap, effective option for short-range and point defense and would also be able to serve as a gap filler in areas where terrain precludes engagement by longer-range HQ-9s positioned in the area to defend their assigned locations. All Pakistan needs to do is take the initiative and embrace this concept, and with the induction of an HQ-9 class system the overall strategic air defense network will become much more effective.

Again, a network such as this is not intended to turn the entire nation into denied airspace. That's just not possible, or even economically feasible at any rate. But with a few key adjustments and acquisitions, Pakistan could greatly increase it's defensive capabilities insofar as intruding aircraft are concerned. A more robust SAM network would also free up more aircraft from point defense or CAP duties, allowing them to be retasked for other roles._

The bold parts are those in current procurement pipelines..
The rest are all taken care of.


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## rockstarIN

HQ-2 is very old system, PA/PAF needed to modify their system long back...


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## Rafi

*The Sakb and the Al Khalid and Al Zarrar main battle tanks are all being equipped with the Integrated Battlefield Management System (IBMS), a system to track friendly and enemy positions similar to the US Army's Blue Force Tracking.*


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## Rafi

PAF C4I Centre - Apparently no equivalent for the indians exist, other than on the drawing board.


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## Trichy

Rafi said:


> PAF C4I Centre - Apparently no equivalent for the indians exist, other than on the drawing board.








Indian Air Force C4I South...


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## SQ8

Trichy said:


> Indian Air Force C4I South...



Any other pic?(i dont doubt its operational.. just wanna see it _working_)
Seems to be booting up.. or installing..
Maybe a diagnostic..
Or a presentation.. since there only seem to be trivial things in that photo. Or is the IAF using command line inputs and readouts for data??

Is that third guy calling tech support ??
Kidding..


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## Trichy

Rafi said:


> PAF C4I Centre - Apparently no equivalent for the indians exist, other than on the drawing board.



This too looks like a PS or CG, who cares???



santro said:


> Any other pic?(i dont doubt its operational.. just wanna see it _working_)
> Seems to be booting up.. or installing..
> Maybe a diagnostic..
> Or a presentation.. since there only seem to be trivial things in that photo. Or is the IAF using command line inputs and readouts for data??
> 
> Is that third guy calling tech support ??
> Kidding..



this C4I centers are not Outer parts of Fighter Jet to get more access or to get click... This is with Operational Under Southern Command i heard... they are working.. but in your still its Simply like a PS or a CG


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## Rafi

santro said:


> Any other pic?(i dont doubt its operational.. just wanna see it _working_)
> Seems to be booting up.. or installing..
> Maybe a diagnostic..
> Or a presentation.. since there only seem to be trivial things in that photo. Or is the IAF using command line inputs and readouts for data??
> 
> Is that third guy calling tech support ??
> Kidding..



Yeah also no headphones, proves they are not talking to any pilots, whereas ours is a fully fledged C4I centre.


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## Rafi

Also the indian picture, their is no maps and plots of aircraft, proves the indian picture is bogus.


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## SQ8

Trichy said:


> This too looks like a PS or CG, who cares???
> 
> 
> 
> this C4I centers are not Outer parts of Fighter Jet to get more access or to get click... This is with Operational Under Southern Command i heard... they are working.. but in your still its Simply like a PS or a CG



Right.. uhh.. this being the comedian who cracks a bad joke..and laughs alone hysterically while the audience stare at each other..

And .. we must have some really good CGI and PS folks to come up with the pictures in the last few posts..
All the IAF pics here have been presentations.. scans etc.

I dont doubt the existence.. 
just curious to see..specifically the interface, symbology etc??
any other serious fellow here who has got some??


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## Rafi

This is a true C4I Centre deep underground, that plots on a map - enemy and friendly aircraft, there is no indian equivalent.

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## Ammyy

Rafi said:


> This is a true C4I Centre deep underground, that plots on a map - enemy and friendly aircraft, there is no indian equivalent.



Isnt this funny that your have this pic and we dnt have any pic so this system is batter than our ???? 

Dnt you know we have 11 operational satellites for servileness and communication .......... Who can you compare our systems with your self


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## Ammyy

silent hawk said:


> *Thanks Now I am convinced that India is behind Pakistan in C4I systems*








Look at the circle 

This system using SATCOM (satellite communication ) and we all know about Pakistan's satellite

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## silent hawk

Trichy said:


> Indian Air Force C4I South...



This is a networks operation center (NOC) it is not at all comparable with the PAF C4I system being shown in this thread.


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## silent hawk

DRDO said:


> Look at the circle
> 
> This system using SATCOM (satellite communication ) and we all know about Pakistan's satellite



I have already admitted that India is ahead in satellite technology why is it so difficult for Indians to admit that IAFs C4I system is inferior to PAF?


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## Ammyy

silent hawk said:


> I have already admitted that India is ahead in satellite technology why is it so difficult for Indians to admit that IAFs C4I system is inferior to PAF?



Sir ji how your C4I is superior ?? because you have pic ????

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## silent hawk

DRDO said:


> Sir ji how your C4I is superior ?? because you have pic ????



As far as this thread is concerned *yes.* Bring picture or accept defeat.


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## Ammyy

silent hawk said:


> As far as this thread is concerned *yes.* Bring picture or accept defeat.



Can you put technical specification and detail of your control system ???


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## silent hawk

DRDO said:


> Can you put technical specification and detail of your control system ???



After you put picture. Want something give something.


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## Ammyy

silent hawk said:


> After you put picture. Want something give something.



Thts my point 

You dnt have detail and technical specification of your system so we ....


But we can guess with system those are already know to world


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## Yeti

The Phalcon awacs is a Command and Control System also be it a air version


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## silent hawk

Yeti said:


> The Phalcon awacs is a Command and Control System also be it a air version



does not show map of India. Please post a picture of IAF C4I system clearly showing digital map. At present I feel that that your GIS section has not come up with its first release.

Please post picture with digitized map of India till then PAF C4I one pic, IAF C4I zero pic.


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## silent hawk

DRDO said:


> Thts my point
> 
> You dnt have detail and technical specification of your system so we ....
> 
> 
> But we can guess with system those are already know to world



Sorry, could not make head or tail of this post.


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## Yeti

silent hawk said:


> does not show map of India. Please post a picture of IAF C4I system clearly showing digital map. At present I feel that that your GIS section has not come up with its first release.
> 
> Please post picture with digitized map of India till then PAF C4I one pic, IAF C4I zero pic.



Perhaps you are right I can not find such a picture of C41 on the ground level but such pictures could be classified for general public but the P8 boeing plane we ordered can serve as an airborne command and communication centre in a war.


*Grumman&#8217;s Mission Systems sector will develop data links for P-8A. The company&#8217;s Integrated Systems sector will support the mission planning effort.
Raytheon will provide an upgraded APS-137 Maritime Surveillance Radar and Signals Intelligence (SIGINT) solutions. Raytheon is also offering its revolutionary GPS Anti-Jam, Integrated Friend or Foe, and Towed Decoy Self-Protection suites, and the aircraft&#8217;s Broadcast Info System (BIS) and secure UHF Satcom capability.
GE Aviation will supply both the Flight Management and Stores Management systems on the P-8A. The Flight Management System provides a truly integrated open architecture that is CNS/ATM compatible along with an inherent growth path for upgrades. The Stores Management System provides a comprehensive system for the electronic control of integrated weapons management.*


http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/p8a/docs/P-8A_overview.pdf

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## silent hawk

Yeti said:


> Perhaps you are right I can not find such a picture of C41 on the ground level but such *pictures could be classified for general public but *the P8 boeing plane we ordered can serve as an airborne command and communication centre in a war.



This I can totally understand and fully agree with. I know about PAF C4I systems well but due to the confidential nature of the data I cannot realse much of it. The pictures and data that we share here are those that have already been published somewhere. The picture of PAF for example was published in a PAF calender so I posted it.

There are however some names of PAF C4ISR centers which have been published. They are GMCC (Generic Mission Control Center). SMCC (Sector Mission Control Center) and ADOC (Air Defence Operational Center).

I have not included PAF AWACS because we consider them as sensors or at best C3I systems.

If no pictures than any names of IAF C4I systems?

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## Ammyy

Well we dnt have much information about IAF systems but some systems of ISRO 

































Just look at this video ....... and look at the ground facilities we have


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## Ammyy

Dnt you think our AIR force already have all these systems


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## Yeti

silent hawk said:


> This I can totally understand and fully agree with. I know about PAF C4I systems well but due to the confidential nature of the data I cannot realse much of it. The pictures and data that we share here are those that have already been published somewhere. The picture of PAF for example was published in a PAF calender so I posted it.
> 
> There are however some names of PAF C4ISR centers which have been published. They are GMCC (Generic Mission Control Center). SMCC (Sector Mission Control Center) and ADOC (Air Defence Operational Center).
> 
> I have not included PAF AWACS because we consider them as sensors or at best C3I systems.
> 
> If no pictures than any names of IAF C4I systems?




Found something intresting: 

the principal operator of India's nuclear weapons, *the IAF's C4I network must be able to survive a first strike* could this mean a hidden structure? like perhaps in a mountain or underground? it does not say


the Strategic Forces Command -- with representatives from the Navy, Army and Air Force -- *has begun work on an operations centre that can withstand NBC attacks.* The command, which is now headquartered in New Delhi and headed by Air Marshal T M Asthana, *plans to shift office soon  further away from the borders.* - again location is not provided where will it be moving to? does not say

*In addition to the radiation hardening, it is understood that several levels of redundancy have been built into the network*



The C4i (Command, Control, Communication, Computing and Intelligence) centre in Delhi set up recently to add teeth to the policing during the Commonwealth Games would be used for the security of US President Barack Obama when he visits Delhi. 

The C4i centre will benefit from Barco's latest LED-based technology, consisting of sixteen 50 inch display cubes along with two 46 inch Narrow-bezel LCD monitors and the state-of-the-art control room management suite. 

"Barco's technology is being used to ensure the safety of people in more than 100 metropolitan areas throughout the world. We are proud and honoured to contribute to the safety of US President during his India visit," Barco India Managing Director Nalin Advani said.


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## rockstarIN

self delete


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## Ammyy

silent hawk said:


> does not show map of India. Please post a picture of IAF C4I system clearly showing digital map. At present I feel that that your GIS section has not come up with its first release.
> 
> Please post picture with digitized map of India till then PAF C4I one pic, IAF C4I zero pic.



I think your pic problem resolved now 

Just check post #406


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## Ammyy

*New hi-tech system to track Indias seas*


Bangalore: India is installing along its long coastline a sophisticated surveillance system capable of tracking movements as distant as 20 kms in the sea with a command and control centre in Delhi from where the entire coast can be monitored, officials said here.

Civil works to put in place the system, comprising a radar, electro-optic sensor and command and control software are underway.

With the system, we can monitor any square inch of the entire sea of the country and see visually, said I V Sarma, Director (R&D) of Bangalore-headquartered BEL, a defence electronics company, which developed the system for the Coast Guard.

In the first phase, these surveillance stations would come up in 46 sensitive coastal locations by next year-end.

The idea is to start the deployment with the west coast, sources at Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL) said.

Trials (for testing the system) are over and a formal contract will be signed with the government before December end, Sarma, adding we will start putting equipment from January onwards.

Though contract negotiations have not been completed, BEL expects the first phase order to be worth Rs 500 crore to

We hope to install and commission the system (first phase in 46 locations) in the next 10 months to one year (from January next year), he said.

While surveillance stations are being put up in sensitive areas in the first phase, the subsequent second and third phase to be taken up would address the gaps to ensure that the entire coastal region is covered.

Sarma said cameras in the coastal surveillance system operate during day and night as well in low-light conditions.

BEL has been working on this project for about an year.

The set-up cameras is used for a range of 20 km. Both radars and camera are capable of going up to a distance of 20 kms into the sea, he said.

Remote operating stations and remote regional operating centres are being set up at local and regional levels in different parts of the country, besides a command and control centre in Delhi.

You can see a complete a coastline picture. You can select any zone and see whats happening, Sarma said.

Data fusion from signals from the radar and electro-optic sensor would help identify a target, cameras can be activated and zoomed into it to take visuals of targets 20 kms in sea and see exactly whats happening in the ship or boat or anything.

So thats the type of power we give to a person sitting in Delhi. We can monitor any square inch of the entire sea of the country and see visually, he added.

New hi-tech system to track India?s seas - 9 Newz:


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## holysaturn

C4i is important to an air force but it has to have assets to exploit it....in this case iaf
*fighter radars su-30,mig-21,mig-29,mirage(all of which have better radars than pak fighters).
*phalcon aesa which we know clearly packs a better punch.
*swordfish,greenpine aesa which hav no matches from the other side.
*sam s-300,osa-k,pechora,sa-6(remeber f-117),shilka. but paf has the not so capable croatle(short range),sa-2 copy.
*aerostat which has no equals from the other side.
*ur own sattelites to ensure secure info tranfer(where india has an edge)
*IT industries to support ur program.
*uavs which india has in larger number.

so even if pak has superior c4I it has to have capable assets to perform the required task,if the assets are crap then c4i is a total waste with f-16a/b,f-7,rose,sa-2.


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## silent hawk

holysaturn said:


> C4i is important to an air force but it has to have assets to exploit it....in this case iaf
> *fighter radars su-30,mig-21,mig-29,mirage(all of which have better radars than pak fighters).
> *phalcon aesa which we know clearly packs a better punch.



These statements are debateable to say the least. The APG and Grifo Radars are quite capable and I think it would take a seprate vs thread to actually determine which is better. Similary Phalon or eireye which is better is quite debateable.


> *swordfish,greenpine aesa which hav no matches from the other side.



True but these are strategic not tactical systems. If I am wrong than please tell me how will you conduct GCI from a range of 1500Kms.



> *sam s-300,osa-k,pechora,sa-6(remeber f-117),shilka. but paf has the not so capable croatle(short range),sa-2 copy.



Your onformation is not uptodate. Pakistan has SPADA 2000, crotale, SA-2, orllikon systems, RBS-70 based integrated air defense systems, indigenously developed Anza II and a variety of SAMs for detterence.



> *aerostat which has no equals from the other side.



Once again a cleary controversial statement. The radars mentioned in this thread clearly show that PAF has an equal if not a better ADGE. It is the VERA for which the Indians have no equivalent.



> *ur own sattelites to ensure secure info tranfer(where india has an edge)
> *IT industries to support ur program.



India in my opinion does have an edge here.



> *uavs which india has in larger number.



UAVs which PAF can and has shot down. Not very useful.



> *so even if pak has superior c4I* it has to have capable assets to perform the required task,if the assets are crap then c4i is a total waste with f-16a/b,f-7,rose,sa-2



With such a biased attitude such as your the mere possibility that PAF may have a superior c4I indicates victory for PAF.

As far as crap equipment is concerned IAF has a history of keeping such equipment. In 1965 it was the Vampire. Rafiqui shot them even before the war started and they were never seen again. Now it is you Mig 27 fleet which is crap they shall have almost no role in a future conflict. Same is the case with your UAVs crap because they cannot survive in enemy territory.

The only IAF thing which surely is not crap is the C4I system. That to because it does not exist.


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## Rain

Dear silent Hawk:

You have demonstrated enough PAF C4I capabilities and it is not right to forced indians to do what they can't. 

I hope India wil spare few billions of $$ for C4I, as they r marching on to become a regional power they cant become one without C4I. if they dont have it they will get soon. When thy will get it, I am sure, they will not rest for a single day to show off there STATE OF ART system.

till that time have some rest!

btw Great Thread indeed!!! thanks alot


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## Yeti

BEL will arrange technology demonstration of its C4ISR capability at Defexpo 2010. It will show its Multi Sensor Data Fusion for Army application.

This system collects information from multiple sensors and carries out data alignment, data association and data fusion to introduce a new target / update an existing target in the system. The other is of the Correlation and Coastal Surveillance Security.

Among other products on display will be the Multi-Function HHTI HandHeld Thermal Imager (HHTI). It is a cooled Thermal Imager based integrated day / night sight with in-built eye-safe Laser Range Finder, Digital Magnetic Compass, Colour CCD and GPS. This equipment is capable of giving range, azimuth and elevation as also co-ordinates of the target. This is highly useful to the Infantry, Artillery and Mechanized Forces for effective engagement of targets.

BEL will also display a model of Akash, the guided missile air defence weapon system. The Akash Weapon System is a medium-range, surface-to-air missile system, which provides air defence against multifarious air threats to mobile, semi-mobile and static vulnerable forces and areas. It is among the best in the SAM class of weapon systems.

BEL is constantly innovating to manufacture state-of-the-art professional electronic equipment and components for the international as well as domestic markets. BEL manufactures a wide range of Military Communication Systems, Radars and Sonars, Naval Systems, Telecom & Broadcast Systems, Electronic Warfare Systems, Tank Electronics, Opto Electronics, Professional Electronic Components and Solar Powered Systems.

At Defexpo 2010, BEL will display selected products and equipment from its wide range which have very good export potential. BEL will also showcase its strengths in and facilities for world-class contract manufacturing. 


http://www.defenseworld.net/go/defensenews.jsp?n=BEL to arrange technology demonstration of its C4ISR systems at Defexpo 2010&id=4126


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## silent hawk

Yeti said:


> BEL will arrange technology demonstration of its C4ISR capability at Defexpo 2010. It will show its Multi Sensor Data Fusion *for Army application*.



The world fastest tank is the British Scorpion it has a maximum speed of 82.23 Km/h

The world fastest aircraft is NASAs X-43 Hyper X with a maximum speed of 10,855 km/h

The difference between a C4ISR system for Army and Airforce is that the Airforce system needs to be more than hundred times more responsive.

Do let us know when BEL or some other company is ready to demonstrate C4I systems for IAF. Pakistan as mentioned in this thread has not only developed but also sold such a system to Bangladesh.


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## Ammyy

silent hawk said:


> *After you put picture. Want something give something.*





silent hawk said:


> does not show map of India. Please post a picture of IAF C4I system clearly showing digital map. At present I feel that that your GIS section has not come up with its first release.
> 
> *Please post picture with digitized map of India till then PAF C4I one pic, IAF C4I zero pic.*





silent hawk said:


> These statements are debateable to say the least. The APG and Grifo Radars are quite capable and I think it would take a seprate vs thread to actually determine which is better. Similary Phalon or eireye which is better is quite debateable.
> 
> 
> True but these are strategic not tactical systems. If I am wrong than please tell me how will you conduct GCI from a range of 1500Kms.
> 
> Once again a cleary controversial statement. The radars mentioned in this thread clearly show that PAF has an equal if not a better ADGE. It is the VERA for which the Indians have no equivalent.
> 
> India in my opinion does have an edge here.
> 
> UAVs which PAF can and has shot down. Not very useful.
> 
> 
> With such a biased attitude such as your the mere possibility that *PAF may have a superior c4I indicates victory for PAF.*
> 
> As far as crap equipment is concerned IAF has a history of keeping such equipment. In 1965 it was the Vampire. Rafiqui shot them even before the war started and they were never seen again. Now it is you Mig 27 fleet which is crap they shall have almost no role in a future conflict. Same is the case with your UAVs crap because they cannot survive in enemy territory.
> 
> *The only IAF thing which surely is not crap is the C4I system. That to because it does not exist.*





silent hawk said:


> The world fastest tank is the British Scorpion it has a maximum speed of 82.23 Km/h
> 
> The world fastest aircraft is NASAs X-43 Hyper X with a maximum speed of 10,855 km/h
> 
> The difference between a C4ISR system for Army and Airforce is that the Airforce system needs to be more than hundred times more responsive.
> 
> Do let us know when BEL or some other company is ready to demonstrate C4I systems for IAF. Pakistan as mentioned in this thread has not only developed but also sold such a system to Bangladesh.



I dnt know what you want to prove with one picture 


Paf lack in terms of Radar compare to India 
Paf lack in term of Satellite compare to India
*(And system become batter with combination of all)
*
You have nothing in terms of technical data just a single pic ?  

You show nothing except one pic (Just compare them with ISRO systems)

On the other hand we have lot of detail about our systems 
Air Force Network - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Integrated Space Cell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## silent hawk

DRDO said:


> I dnt know what you want to prove with one picture
> 
> You show nothing except one pic (Just compare them with ISRO systems)
> 
> On the other hand we have lot of detail about our systems



It is not about one pic DRDO the whole thread proves it.

The posts clearly show that Pakistan is secretive about its system very little data is being released.

India on the other hand is very open about its systems as you youself have admitted.

The mere absence of IAF C4I related data on the web is proof enough that such a system at present does not exist. What exists has been posted it has no digital map so at present the GIS is under development.

I am sure as soon as IAF gets a c4I system you shall be the first to post it. Till then


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## India Rising

the thread is


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## Ammyy

silent hawk said:


> It is not about one pic DRDO the whole thread proves it.
> 
> *The posts clearly show that Pakistan is secretive about its system very little data is being released.
> 
> India on the other hand is very open about its systems as you youself have admitted.*
> 
> The mere absence of IAF C4I related data on the web is proof enough that such a system at present does not exist. What exists has been posted it has no digital map so at present the GIS is under development.
> 
> I am sure as soon as IAF gets a c4I system you shall be the first to post it. Till then



How much you know about Arihant before government show it to world ???

How much you know about K series ???

And by your logic if IAF not release any pic so we dnt have any thing not even a single computer cause we are not release that pic 

Just compare your wallpaper pic with ISROs live video and other pics

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## Rafi

*The Sakb and the Al Khalid and Al Zarrar main battle tanks are all being equipped with the Integrated Battlefield Management System (IBMS), a system to track friendly and enemy positions similar to the US Army's Blue Force Tracking.*

Operational C4I Systems - that give commanders a realtime image of the battlefield - Pakistan is clearly ahead.

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## Rafi

DRDO said:


> How much you know about Arihant before government show it to world ???
> 
> How much you know about K series ???
> 
> And by your logic if IAF not release any pic so we dnt have any thing not even a single computer cause we are not release that pic
> 
> Just compare your wallpaper pic with ISROs live video and other pics



And what did the world know of our cruise missiles Babur and Raad 
YouTube - Babur Cruise Missile Pakistan

YouTube - Pakistani air launched cruise missile (Hatf-8) test

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## Ammyy

Rafi said:


> And what did the world know of our cruise missiles Babur and Raad
> YouTube - Babur Cruise Missile Pakistan
> 
> YouTube - Pakistani air launched cruise missile (Hatf-8) test



Sir ji its about Indian secret 
Silent hawk post that Indians not kept anything secret 
Its not about yours


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## Rafi

*C4I AND AIR DEFENCE AUTOMATION SYSTEM


Category : C4-1 Air Defence Automation System
Manufacturer : GIDS
Detail

The Air Defense Automation System has been indigenously developed by Air Weapons Complex (AERO). The designed system collects information from all Air Defense sensors and radars, processes it, converts it into a standard format and displays it in real time at any desired location. The system architecture is independent of space, time and communication medium. The Command and Control System provides an environment for multiple functions to operate on the same hardware platform and share data via a Local Area Network (LAN) or a Wide Area Network (WAN).
The System allows the Commander to a view a fused picture of his complete Area Of Responsibility (AOR). It is a compilation of data from all Air Defense sensors, combined with battle plan, projection overlays, and any other data that is available, including:
current locations and planned movement operations of ground, maritime and air units of friendly, neutral, and enemy forces generated features and projections (e.g. battle plans, operating zones).
Our engineers work closely with the customers to provide them customized, open, flexible and cost-effective solutions to their Air Defense Automation System requirements. AERO provides comprehensive Integrated Logistic Support (ILS) throughout the life cycle of the System.
SALIENT FEATURES

Seamless integration with C4I systems.
Network centric design allowing self-forming and self-healing network (user can enter or leave the network dynamically).
Complete Air Situation Display (ASD).
User friendly and compact Graphical User Interface.
The System can be operated in different modes (Operator, Commander etc.)
Personnel training under simulation mode.
Scenario recording and replay facility.
Communication with lower and higher command centers.
Advanced GIS support.
Multiple layer architecture (Display of multiple maps).
Map features e.g. map loading, map editing, map color changing etc.
Preset and programmable zoom buttons.
Display of Latitude/Longitude, Georef and Grid System.
True battlefield scenario support.
Display of track history during interception operation. User can switch on/off history of track.
Track symbol indicating its category.
Track type indicates the threat status of the track.
Tactical interception aids available.
Radar on/off option.
Aircraft Plot Suppression Area (PSA).
Non-automatic track initiation area.
Weapons (SAM/AAA) status monitoring.
Use of commercial technologies.
Ergonomically designed Command and Control Console.
Easy maintenance.
MULTIPLE RADAR TRACKER 
Multi Radar Tracker (MRT) uses state-of-the-art tracking algorithms to detect and track all modern, fast and highly maneuverable targets, hence forming an integral part of C4I and Air Defense Automation System. It works effectively in high clutter environments and displays real time information for any command & control function. It can handle 2000 plots and 1000 tracks. This capability can be further enhanced due to scalable design of the Tracker. It can be integrated simultaneously with homogenous and heterogeneous radars.
The Tracker automatically initiates and reliably tracks maneuvering targets. The tracks initiation and maneuvering detection is enhanced with multiple sensors. The trackers update the display information at a high rate to form a true, accurate and complete Air Situation Display (ASD) for all air-defense and air-traffic control operations.

The main functions of the MRT algorithm include:

Inferring the presence of valid targets from a series of plots and tracks received from different radars.
Calculating optimally by the sensor the true trajectories of the target in presence of uncertainties imposed by the sensor as well as aircraft dynamics.
Recognizing and rejecting false targets.
Successfully tracking and predicting the optimal estimates of the target in the presence of clutter and false alarms.
Displaying target tracking information.
Forming correct association between tracks and observation from radars in different environment.
Successfully tracking the target during extreme conditions of fast maneuver, formations, miss detection, cross-overs etc.
Fusing information from multiple radars of different ranges, resolutions, scan times and other radars parameters.
Analyzing the influence of sensor modeling, radar processor design, and change of other system parameters on algorithm design.
*


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## Vasily Zaytsev

You mean Like this


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_5sP7XwykNSM/TPhQnPx6kLI/AAAAAAAAC3A/dhNh17yAuUo/s1600/BEL+%2822%29.jpg










Since you know too much about India and its C4I , can you tell me what is the pic the pic I have posted.

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## silent hawk

Vasily Zaytsev said:


> You mean Like this
> 
> 
> http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_5sP7XwykN...AC3A/dhNh17yAuUo/s1600/BEL+&#37;252822%29.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Since you know too much about India and its C4I , can you tell me what is the pic the pic I have posted.



This is a dual head ruggedized console developed by Bharat Electronics Limited.

It is used in their indigenously developed systems most likely the central acquisition radar used with the Akash surface to air missile system.


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## silent hawk

Now that we have answered Vasily Zaytsev question, the Indians in this forum should agree that we do know too much about India and its C4I.

Any Disagreements?


----------



## Vasily Zaytsev

Bingo,

There yoy go !!!!.

That means you agree that the pic that I posted is a part of C4I system for Akash missle.

Good, at least you are aknowledging that we are using C4I for at least our Akash missile squadrons.

Don't worry, slowly you will aknowledge more as the information comes out.


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## silent hawk

Vasily Zaytsev said:


> Bingo,
> 
> There yoy go !!!!.
> 
> That means you agree that the pic that I posted is a part of C4I system for Akash missle.
> 
> Good, at least you are aknowledging that we are using C4I for at least our Akash missile squadrons.
> 
> Don't worry, slowly you will aknowledge more as the information comes out.



Now that you are convinced that I know something about C4I systems let me tell you something more that I have learned from your picture.

First of all there is no digitized map. The scope seems to display digitized raw video. The range of the radar is about 100 to 150 Km.The primary aim of this system is to pick up targets and designate them to a firing system.

This is a component of a Surface to Air Missile System. It is not a C4I system in itself. It seems to be a good system however, congratulations to the engineers who developed it.


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## Yeti

The first of the three Indian Air Force (IAF) AWACS (Airborne Warning and Control System) platforms has landed in India from Israel. The giant IL-76 configured in its new avatar was escorted by three Mig-29 and three Jaguar aircraft each, that took off from an advance fighter base of the South Western Air Command (SWAC). The fighter formations caught up with the AWACS in mid-air and escorted it as it entered the Indian FIR (Flight Information Region), till safe touchdown at the Jamnagar airbase, at 1135 hours on Monday

The AWACS has many capabilities including Electronic and Signal Intelligence gathering. Once operationalised alongwith the *Operational Data Link *(ODL), *Integrated Air Command and Control System *(IACCS) and the *Air Force Net* (AFNET), the IAF would have taken a definitive step towards Net Centric Operations. 

AWACS lands in India | StratPost



India is using a combination of systems highlighted above for IAF


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## Ammyy

silent hawk said:


> Now that you are convinced that I know something about C4I systems



Well its not about this thread 



> let me tell you something more that I have learned from your picture. First of all there is no digitized map. The scope seems to display digitized raw video.



Yar I am still not able to understand what you want to prove 
Still you not comment on ISROs control room 



> The range of the radar is about 100 to 150 Km.The primary aim of this system is to pick up targets and designate them to a firing system. This is a component of a Surface to Air Missile System. It is not a C4I system in itself. It seems to be a good system however, congratulations to the engineers who developed it.



You are talking about 100 to 150 KM range buddy I think you forget that we have radars with more than 500 or 1000 KM range


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## Rafi

Our Erieye comes with link 16 and which allows it to interact with ground stations and become part of C4I


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## Trichy

Rafi said:


> YouTube - | HD | Pakistan Air Force SAAB ERIEYE 2000 AEW&C(Fully Explained)
> 
> Our Erieye comes with link 16 and which allows it to interact with ground stations and become part of C4I



On the other hand we demonstrated a full Operational on Ex VAYU SHAKTI 2010, With data linked to all fighters...


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## SQ8

Yea we something called Highmark 2010 too.. in which the whole nation was linked up. 
Every piece of hardware we had demonstrated combined SA beyond what was expected..including the erieye.
So..been there.. done that.
We followed that up with a combined exercise azm-e-nau..where the PAF's abilities were afforded to the army as well.

Moreover.. mobile low alt radar systems embedded with the Army were also integrated into the network to give a complete picture of the FLOT airspace.

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## Trichy

santro said:


> Yea we something called Highmark 2010 too.. in which the whole nation was linked up.
> Every piece of hardware we had demonstrated combined SA beyond what was expected..including the erieye.
> So..been there.. done that.
> We followed that up with a combined exercise azm-e-nau..where the PAF's abilities were afforded to the army as well.
> 
> Moreover.. mobile low alt radar systems embedded with the Army were also integrated into the network to give a complete picture of the FLOT airspace.



But i never heard about the complete nation linked up @ that Ex Highmark 2010.!!! *i think* SAAB Erieye is Not delivered to PAF that time(Prove me im wrong)...

Here they live the whole show with combined of UAV videos also...


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## SQ8

Trichy said:


> But i never heard about the complete nation linked up @ that Ex Highmark 2010.!!! *i think* SAAB Erieye is Not delivered to PAF that time(Prove me im wrong)...
> 
> Here they live the whole show with combined of UAV videos also...



Search the forum's for video's of highmark 2010..
the erieye was delivered.
The nation was linked up.
Everybase was involved.. even red air assets were allowed to simulate a through C4I system.


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## Bratva

Trichy said:


> But i never heard about the complete nation linked up @ that Ex Highmark 2010.!!! *i think* SAAB Erieye is Not delivered to PAF that time(Prove me im wrong)...
> 
> Here they live the whole show with combined of UAV videos also...



Don't Act Like A Jack ***, Saab was delivered in December 2009 and High Mark exercise was conducted in April 2010, here Is Saab taking part in High Mark

YouTube - Pakistan Airforce Fire Power Demonstration - High Mark 2010 (Ptv News Report)

Watch from 1.25


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## silent hawk

have been a bit busy lately. will post the analysis of PAF C4I system soon hopefully.


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## silent hawk

We have shown this PAF C4I system many times on this thread. Does any Indian know the name or function of this fully functional command and control center?


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## indianpatriot

Rafi said:


> PAF C4I Centre - Apparently no equivalent for the indians exist, other than on the drawing board.




no one is even watching...the seats are all vacqant...atleast indias are vigilant!!!

and if you think that this is stupid then it is stupid too if you say that PAF controls are better because you have a pic!!

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## silent hawk

indianpatriot said:


> no one is even watching...the seats are all vacqant...atleast indias are vigilant!!!
> 
> and if you think that this is stupid then it is stupid too if you say that PAF controls are better because you have a pic!!



The reasons the seats are vacant is because this is backup. Now do you know what this is and and what it does?


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## grace

silent hawk said:


> We have shown this PAF C4I system many times on this thread. Does any Indian know the name or function of this fully functional command and control center?



nopes...


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## Trichy

silent hawk said:


> The reasons the seats are vacant is because this is backup. Now do you know what this is and and what it does?



 Back Up??? any proof for your claim? or just my close friend or neighbor is working there who told me this and that

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## Trichy

mafiya said:


> Don't Act Like A Jack ***, Saab was delivered in December 2009 and High Mark exercise was conducted in April 2010, here Is Saab taking part in High Mark
> 
> YouTube - Pakistan Airforce Fire Power Demonstration - High Mark 2010 (Ptv News Report)
> 
> Watch from 1.25



may be im wrong... but no proof of C4I commands as per the said?

*Don't Forget to Watch from 1.42*


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## blain2

jha said:


> Yes..an old article with vintage facts..A lot of upgradation is going on with help of israel and Russia..Not everything is made available in public..
> However for Teasers- Swordfish with 1500 Km. Range in 2011..followed by a radar of much longer detection range in 5-6 years which will cost a bomb to procure..



1500 km vs 250 km....how does this even matter for the IAF given its current posture against the PAF? The need for greater detection range is an air defence fallacy. In actuality what you care about is a detection range that gives you enough early warning. The AD and AEW systems being employed by both sides will allow that. Anything beyond is useless, at least in Indo-Pak context. Its much cheaper to deploy multiple CRCs that are digitally linked to the AD HQ.

If anything, maybe the consideration is for China.


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## silent hawk

Trichy said:


> Back Up??? any proof for your claim? or just my close friend or neighbor is working there who told me this and that



As I have said before this is a forum not a court. If you do not agree with the information I give that is your choice.


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## Trichy

silent hawk said:


> As I have said before this is a forum not a court. If you do not agree with the information I give that is your choice.



But that's not the answer for my qus... i never said its a court! you guys only ask give prof prof prof...

if you want to discuss be straight and you want to prove other's that your argument is CORRECT first..


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## silent hawk

silent hawk said:


> We have shown this PAF C4I system many times on this thread. Does any Indian know the name or function of this fully functional command and control center?



This is a Sector Level Command and Control Center as can be seen from the Map. The purpose of this system is to fuse data from all sensors such as TPS-77, Vera , MPDR etc. It hence forms a single composite picture consisting of data in all height regimes. 

Can any Indian guess the advantage of such a composite picture?

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## Trichy

silent hawk said:


> This is a Sector Level Command and Control Center as can be seen from the Map. The purpose of this system is to fuse data from all sensors such as TPS-77, Vera , MPDR etc. It hence forms a single composite picture consisting of data in all height regimes.
> 
> Can any Indian guess the advantage of such a composite picture?



www.lockheedmartin.com-TPS-77

Max range : 250Nm
Attitude : 100000 ft

www.sra.com-Vera

The testing has proven that the system has an operation range of 400 to 500 kilometers in an angle higher than 120 degrees. The software presently used is capable of automatic and simultaneous tracking of up to 300 aircraft/targets at the real time.

MPDR

Here are two fully mobile versions one with 45km range another with 60 km. There is a third version, transportable, with a 90 km range.

@ with the help of most longest rader is 500km with that how you see Dehradum???

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## IndianTiger

any update on PAF sensors.


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## MilSpec

self delete


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## Rafi

Watch from 2.10 onwards you will see the operational use of Pakistan Net Centric System.


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## Laughing_soldier

IAF has the best early warning and C4I systems in this region. they operate satellites. long range AWACS , AESA radars , aerostats. networking of all resources have done. 

*now they are aiming for full netcentric air force so C4I is past. *

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## SQ8

Laughing_soldier said:


> IAF has the best early warning and C4I systems in this region. they operate satellites. long range AWACS , AESA radars , aerostats. networking of all resources have done.
> 
> *now they are aiming for full netcentric air force so C4I is past. *


 
How is the term ... net centric.. considered superior to C4I??
Since the C4I systems are made net centric.. and not replaced by net centric systems..
You sure you know what you are talking about ??


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## Laughing_soldier

Rafi said:


> Watch from 2.10 onwards you will see the operational use of Pakistan Net Centric System.


 
what net centric system you see there? it is radar control station from where air targets are monitored. i can see TPS-77 radar. 

this is how net centric systems works.


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## Laughing_soldier

Santro said:


> How is the term ... net centric.. considered superior to C4I??
> Since the C4I systems are made net centric.. and not replaced by net centric systems..
> You sure you know what you are talking about ??


 
C4I is an old technology. this exists for quite some decades. but net centric warfare is new. it is information age technology. 

from wiki ,

Network-centric warfare - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Specifically, the theory contains the following four tenets in its hypotheses:

*The tenets of network-centric warfare are:

Tenet 1: A robustly networked force improves information sharing.
Tenet 2: Information sharing and collaboration enhance the quality of information and shared situational awareness.
Tenet 3: Shared situational awareness enables self-synchronization.
Tenet 4: These, in turn, dramatically increase mission effectiveness.

*


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## SQ8

Actually.. C4I.. isnt a technology at all..
Its a term to define spheres of a military machine.. 
C2 being command and control.. C3I being command,control, communications and intelligence..
A military's C4I system can be network centric.. but cannot be exchanged for a network centric system.
Which makes me think you just read the term..and the wiki with it.. 
Its ok for an enthusiast...to make such claims..


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## Laughing_soldier

Santro said:


> Actually.. C4I.. isnt a technology at all..
> Its a term to define spheres of a military machine..
> C2 being command and control.. C3I being command,control, communications and intelligence..
> A military's C4I system can be network centric.. but cannot be exchanged for a network centric system.
> Which makes me think you just read the term..and the wiki with it..
> Its ok for an enthusiast...to make such claims..


 
you are correct. by technology i mean 'command,control, communications, computer and intelligence' technology under one platform. many of the countries have it. net centric warfare is every system is part of a network where they can share information of various type. bet centric warfare is considered as revolution in military warfare. 

*C4I is central and net centric is complete distributed platform. *


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## satishkumarcsc

Laughing_soldier said:


> you are correct. by technology i mean 'command,control, communications, computer and intelligence' technology under one platform. many of the countries have it. net centric warfare is every system is part of a network where they can share information of various type. bet centric warfare is considered as revolution in military warfare.
> 
> *C4I is central and net centric is complete distributed platform. *



Eh?! what do you mean by this? without C4I there cant be any net centric capability.

Net centricity means co-ordination of C4I from everywhere to be integrated into one place giving a clear picture to the top heads for decision-making.

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## SQ8

satishkumarcsc said:


> Eh?! what do you mean by this? without C4I there cant be any net centric capability.
> 
> Net centricity means co-ordination of C4I from everywhere to be integrated into one place giving a clear picture to the top heads for decision-making.


 
To elaborate more..
A net-centric system allows information from any sphere or theater of war to be available at all times to those that need it... via inter-connectivity of all assets at provide and need information resource.
When a jet is network-centric ready.. it refers to it being able to receive data from its peers which includes other fighters, AWACS,EW,Tankers etc.
and ground assets.. at the same time it should be able to transmit back what it sees to these assets.. and the ground component... 
A C4I system that supports these capabilities throughout the assets it controls is network centric.
In a network centric system, it is ideal that no single node is critical, every node is able to act as center of co-ordination and operations...
yet there are problems associated with it. 
A C4I system that relies on the traditional top-down hierarchy.. is still a C4I system...network centric or not.


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## notorious_eagle

*It appears that PA is also a fully network centric organization now along with the PAF. Here is what Brigadier Tughral Yamin had to say:*

"One idea that was tested during the exercise was the applicability of the network-centric approach in the joint Army and Air force operations. The network-centric as opposed to platform-centric operation aims to connect all sensors to with the shooter thus reducing his OODA (Orient, Observe, Decide, and Act) loop. Network-centricity provides a Common Operating Picture (COP) to all stakeholders and facilitates its decision making process. If indeed the Indians are planning to animate a Cold Start type scenario, a net-enabled force would be able to react in a timely manner by launching appropriate responses to reduce or eliminate any advantages that might be sought through reducing the time of operations. All three services of the Armed Forces are rapidly transforming into a network enabled force. Ex Azm-e-Nau III was the battle lab to test a number of ideas and concepts to counter the so called Cold Start offensive doctrine. Network centric operation was one concept, which emerged as a doable enterprise. It reduced the fog of war by allowing all tiers of the command from the highest to lowest field commander to look into the evolving battle picture through across the board connectivity using all means of Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance (ISR) assets i.e. UAVs, aerial imagery and early warning (EW). The real time availability of information not only reduced the chance of surprise through any proactive maneuvers, it also enhanced the decision making capability of commanders at all levels. 'Cold Start' has met it nemesis!"

http://www.pakistanarmy.gov.pk/awpreview/textcontent.aspx?pid=382


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## SR 71 Blackbird

Nice pics in this thread


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## SR 71 Blackbird

Can anybody recognize the radar in the pic below.






http://geimint.blogspot.com/2010/09/indian-sam-network.html


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## d14gtc

SR 71 Blackbird said:


> Can anybody recognize the radar in the pic below.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IMINT & Analysis: The Indian SAM Network


 
I guess these two White Round discs over em Zaplin is hovering..... otherwise which n what base is it.


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## SR 71 Blackbird

d14gtc said:


> I guess these two White Round discs over em Zaplin is hovering..... otherwise which n what base is it.


 
Some IAF base in Rajasthan.


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## Laughing_soldier

satishkumarcsc said:


> Eh?! what do you mean by this? without C4I there cant be any net centric capability.





I mean C4I is there but old technology. if IAF going for net centric warfare systems C4I is past for them. it is a centralized system and is nothing compared to distributed system like net centric warfare. *In C4I structure one particular command get all the information and makes decisions , in net centric warfare all the information shared by all the resources available fast and securely.* Like a Kilo submarine sonar detects a ship at certain range outside it torpedo range but can cue the sonar data to any nearby friendly ship or aircraft securely which can utilize that data to engage that enemy sip. All the resources work like in a single network whether it is ship, submarine, aircraft, satellite, radar station etc. 




> Net centricity means co-ordination of C4I from everywhere to be integrated into one place giving a clear picture to the top heads for decision-making.



*No. net centric warfare is not this. * This is C4I you are talking about.* NCW is not for giving clear picture to the top heads but for sharing by all. *

pls read it here.



> Network-centric warfare
> From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Network-centric warfare - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Network-centric warfare, now commonly called network-centric operations, is a new military doctrine or theory of war pioneered by the United States Department of Defense.
> 
> *It seeks to translate an information advantage, enabled in part by information technology, into a competitive advantage through the robust networking of well informed geographically dispersed forces.This networking, combined with changes in technology, organization, processes, and people - may allow new forms of organizational behavior.*
> 
> Specifically, the theory contains the following four tenets in its hypotheses:
> 
> A robustly networked force improves information sharing;
> Information sharing enhances the quality of information and shared situational awareness;
> Shared situational awareness enables collaboration and self-synchronization, and enhances sustainability and speed of command; and
> These, in turn, dramatically increase mission effectiveness.


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## SQ8

Laughing_soldier said:


> I mean C4I is there but old technology. if IAF going for net centric warfare systems C4I is past for them. it is a centralized system and is nothing compared to distributed system like net centric warfare. *In C4I structure one particular command get all the information and makes decisions , in net centric warfare all the information shared by all the resources available fast and securely.* Like a Kilo submarine sonar detects a ship at certain range outside it torpedo range but can cue the sonar data to any nearby friendly ship or aircraft securely which can utilize that data to engage that enemy sip. All the resources work like in a single network whether it is ship, submarine, aircraft, satellite, radar station etc.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *No. net centric warfare is not this. * This is C4I you are talking about.* NCW is not for giving clear picture to the top heads but for sharing by all. *
> 
> pls read it here.


 
Incorrect.. 
A C4I system is hierarchical.. 
A major has his own C3I structure.. as does a General.. 
What differed was the ability of the major to have access to all the information the General was getting.. and the General seeing all that the major sees.
Net centric warfare allows this to happen in the traditional C4I system.

I suggest you read this.. 


HTML:


http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download;jsessionid=69FED526AF7AC0997BD4DF3A35AA1495?doi=10.1.1.4.7450&rep=rep1&type=pdf

and then post instead of bringing in wiki..

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## Avatar

The thread itself isn't logical. PAF and IAF cannot be compared head to head when it comes to command control systems. Pakistani airspace is much smaller than Indian airspace, and so is the disparity between the respective force's resources. 

All that needs to be said is that PAF is utilizing it's resources in a more cost effective manner than IAF.


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## Luftwaffe

Do you know how robust Swedish Command and Control System? Its way Advance than IAF. It doesn't mean if an air space is smaller you're to integrate a like wise system.


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## SQ8

Luftwaffe said:


> Do you know how robust Swedish Command and Control System? Its way Advance than IAF. It doesn't mean if an air space is smaller you're to integrate a like wise system.


 
The swedish system is just the groundwork.. on it sits a suite of locally designed software that is integrated with the ground terminals for the Saab, links for the ZDK.. the various SAMS and AAA sites.. datalinks from the jets go through the AEW craft.
all of this data.. is viewable in realtime at AHQ..
and sectorwise .. SOC,NOC, etc.. although they can view other sectors..

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## SR 71 Blackbird

Luftwaffe said:


> Do you know how robust Swedish Command and Control System? Its way Advance than IAF. It doesn't mean if an air space is smaller you're to integrate a like wise system.



It's way behind Israeli systems being used by IAF. Sweden can't compete with Israel in radars,Command and Control Systems.

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## F-16_Falcon

Avatar said:


> The thread itself isn't logical. PAF and IAF cannot be compared head to head when it comes to command control systems. Pakistani airspace is much smaller than Indian airspace, and so is the disparity between the respective force's resources.
> 
> All that needs to be said is that PAF is utilizing it's resources in a *more cost effective* manner than IAF.


 
You better say we have better radars and other systems than IAF. What IAF get for 100 bucks we get it for 10 bucks.


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## rockstarIN

Luftwaffe said:


> Do you know how robust Swedish Command and Control System? Its way Advance than IAF. It doesn't mean if an air space is smaller you're to integrate a like wise system.


 
Do you know what kind of systems being used by IAF? the kind of radar networks, data link systems, AEW craft systems?

By the way air space does matter. The less area you have, the more you can concentrate.


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## Ammyy

F-16_Falcon said:


> You better say we have better radars and other systems than IAF. What IAF get for 100 bucks we get it for 10 bucks.


 
can youplease enlighten us which radar of yours better than Indian radar which you bought in 10 bucks  and we are not able to bought in 100 bucks


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## SQ8

SR 71 Blackbird said:


> It's way behind Israeli systems being used by IAF. Sweden can't compete with Israel in radars,Command and Control Systems.


 
Yes Im sure.. how much is Elbit paying you??

Each system in its own right is very capable..
The main radars are infact US in origin.. 
supplemented by swedish low level radars which have undergone an upgrade to bring them on par with the current tech.
And NO.. these systems werent cheap compared to the IAF's either.. we paid good cash for em.

For the actual airspace needed to be monitored.. the PAF's coverage is now more than adequate to handle intruders from the east.
The IAF too...has MORE than it needs now..to tackle the western border.. its another story altogether when it comes to the north and east.

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## F-16_Falcon

DRDO said:


> can youplease enlighten us which radar of yours better than Indian radar which you bought in 10 bucks  and we are not able to bought in 100 bucks


 
i mean same products 10 times cheaper. we have Spada-2000 and other advanced radars from US.


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## monitor

F-16_Falcon said:


> i mean same products 10 times cheaper. we have Spada-2000 and other advanced radars from US.


 
Spada 2000 is not rader in fact medium range air defence system from italy


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## F-16_Falcon

monitor said:


> Spada 2000 is not rader in fact medium range air defence system from italy


 
thank you for the information genius! 


i know spada-2000 is a air defence system but it needs radar.


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## rockstarIN

F-16_Falcon said:


> i mean same products 10 times cheaper. we have Spada-2000 and other advanced radars from US.


 
You wont get anything 'cheaper' in this market mate. All expensive..


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## Rafi

Rafi said:


> Watch from 2.10 onwards you will see the operational use of Pakistan Net Centric System.


 
It is a fact that india has nothing like the system shown at 2.10, if you have post it.


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## Whiplash

Rafi said:


> It is a fact that india has nothing like the system shown at 2.10, if you have post it.


 
And what was shown by the way? Dudes sitting in front of screens showing aircraft locations? Every ATC in the world has the same system. In fact there was no 'system' shown 
Do you even know what net centric means?

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## raveolution

F-16_Falcon said:


> thank you for the information genius!
> 
> 
> i know spada-2000 is a air defence system but it needs radar.


 
Just for my information, what radar does Pakistan have which is better than a radar with the Indian Armed Forces at 10% of the price?? Forget better, even comparable?!!


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## Luftwaffe

blackbird....I think you are not aware of the contracts Swedish Saab is getting for land, air, sea based systems...They do have C4I system. 

You have to prove it to us that Swedish and far off from what IAF and overall india air, land and sea based uses. So way behind? flunk statement.. Anymore information on swedish systems? They are even developing and developed and won the contract for command and control for their submarines as well and that was back in 2006, you can imagine its 2011 how far they've moved on and advanced. 
C4I Systems

I think santro already explained it, Pakistan coverage is more then adequate.


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## ironman

Nice effort silent hawk.. Seems I too have to contribute something.
Posting the AFNET network of IAF and will update with more information.


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## Rafi

ironman said:


> Nice effort silent hawk.. Seems I too have to contribute something.
> Posting the AFNET network of IAF and will update with more information.


 
That's a flow chart - where is your C4I system, I have shown you PAF's.


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## ironman

Rafi said:


> That's a flow chart - where is your C4I system, I have shown you PAF's.


 
Ask to Mr.Santro he will probably explain..


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## Hulk

How is the C4I system performing now a days, specially on the day of OSAMA raid.


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## SQ8

indianrabbit said:


> How is the C4I system performing now a days, specially on the day of OSAMA raid.


 
The system is working great.. better than expected..
as it was before the raid..
Im not sure what your point is?


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## TaimiKhan

Santro said:


> The system is working great.. better than expected..
> as it was before the raid..
> *Im not sure what your point is?*


 
You know well what they mean with such questions


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## monitor

indianrabbit said:


> How is the C4I system performing now a days, specially on the day of OSAMA raid.


 
They used a blind spot on the operation day beside this it was difficult for any rader to detect/differentiate between helicopter and hill in the rout from jalalabad to abottabad and used the opportunity of moon less night, moreover Pakistan's awacs are not fully operational or available right now .


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## SQ8

TaimiKhan said:


> You know well what they mean with such questions


 
Lets humor them then..


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## humza_313

indianrabbit said:


> How is the C4I system performing now a days, specially on the day of OSAMA raid.



HAHAHA... ! the same way your radars worked during 26/11 ....! (jokes apart)

helicopters flying at a lower level than the radar coverage do not actually appear on the radar... moreover the helicopters were equipped with some advanced stealth tech. but the blips of the standby choppers near the border appeared on the radar perfectly on the risalpur and Peshawar radars.


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## humza_313

TaimiKhan said:


> You know well what they mean with such questions



indian guys usually love asking questions like these :p ..


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## 1ndy

silent hawk said:


> *PAF's C4I SYSTEM*



i bet it's 100000000000% Photoshoped


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## TaimiKhan

1ndy said:


> i bet it's 100000000000% Photoshoped


 
Sorry to disappoint you, this is no photoshop. Its something which is real and has been there for decades now. 

Much more upgraded then it was inducted initially in the 80s.


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## DARKY

I don't know how many Indians have noticed that.......we had a whole lot of digging and and laying of new kind of optical cables in every nook and corner of India just a few years back from the remotest village to the metropolitan cities.....and that was being done simultaneously all over India at the same time.......on very large scale..........I had a chance to travel a lot during that time and saw exactly similar cables being laid even in dense jungles....to very busy cities like Mumbai.


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## DARKY

Rafi said:


> That's a flow chart - where is your C4I system, I have shown you PAF's.


 
















*Akash SAM system*











All these are developed by Indian laboratories in collaberation with their Israeli, Russian, and French counterparts which is best suited to the Indian environment and working condition and are on par with the best available in the world.

Hope this satisfies you........we don't have cousins/neighbors/friends/uncles working in our armed forces, strategic command, DRDO, and other defense research laboratories clicking pictures and making disclosures about their air defense network for us.......so that we could brag about them in some internet forum........neither do we have Photoshop experts who waste their time drawing fancy images for us to rant on them.

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## Jon Snow

i did notice a lot of digging and laying of cables a couple of years back in delhi - didnt know it was happening all over the country- or even if it was defence related


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## DARKY

Jon Snow said:


> i did notice a lot of digging and laying of cables a couple of years back in delhi - didnt know it was happening all over the country- or even if it was defence related


 
I had a chance to be in the NE, Rajasthan, UP, Bihar, Karnatka, Haryana, Punjab and travel via Chattisgarh, Jharkhand and Westbengal during 2008-2009 period........and similar cables were what I noticed only difference was that it got thicker as we approached places like Agra, Ambala, Jodhpur, Gwahati etc........and guess what every where machines were used to complete the laying of cables fast......it was really strange watching a big driller machine working in a remote village in Bengal where not even 4 wheeled vehicles were seen.


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## tyagi

those were broadband cable.


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## Rafi

*INTEGRATED BATTLEFIELD MANAGEMENT SYSTEM

Category : Integrated Battle Field Management System (IBMS)
Manufacturer : GIDS/IDS
Detail


Integrated Battlefield Management System(IBMS) is designed for the operations of amour units in the field to meet the requirements of future battlefield. The user- friendly system provides battlefield awareness through comprehensive land navigation system based on GPS and digitized maps. It enables commanders in mission planning, modification and dissemination of plans, monitoring of battlefield at tactical and operational level, through safe and secure radio network. It facilitates integration of external sensors for data/information acquisition and showing it within the scope of C4I environments. IBMS also facilitates commanders in remote firing of AAMG by auto tracking the aerial and ground targets from inside the tank.
IBMS3

* Safe and secure information sharing through ad hoc networking of radios
* Remote operation of 12.7mm aamg from inside the tank
* Driver panel to facilitate driver to follow the correct route with the help of directional bars
* Auto target tracking for arial and ground targets
* Laser target indication to indicate location of the hostile elements and its engagement
* Rugged hardware to work in harsh environmental conditions based on military specifications*


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## Bratva

TaimiKhan said:


> Sorry to disappoint you, this is no photoshop. Its something which is real and has been there for decades now.
> 
> Much more upgraded then it was inducted initially in the 80s.


 
Kisay samjha rahy ho Taimi, Who thinks, it's a indian network being labeled as Pakistani


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## 1ndy

mafiya said:


> Kisay samjha rahy ho Taimi, Who thinks, it's a indian network being labeled as Pakistani


 
^^^  can you show the same picture by clicking it from another angle???


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## TaimiKhan

1ndy said:


> ^^^  can you show the same picture by clicking it from another angle???


 
Here buddy, another pic from a different angle:






Plus if you can know how to use Google, do some searching and you will find out good articles about the PAF ADC, the there are certain PAF related videos where you can see video shots of this command centre on numerous occasions. Also, i do believe there is a separate video by PAF about its air defence activities, in which also this command centre was shown, even though that is a very old video showing the old command centre which at that time was in its own standard a state of the art one, and in the past few years PAF has upgraded this network with more hardware as well as software and the indigenous command and control system is now fully active for the past few months and is working perfectly and exceeded expectations.

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## DARKY

AWACS and AEW&C air crafts would be absolute in an Indo-Pak war scenario











And those multi dollar Erieye AEW&C systems would be sitting ducks....... In front of Novator K-172


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## notorious_eagle

DARKY said:


> And those multi dollar Erieye AEW&C systems would be sitting ducks....... In front of Novator K-172



Words cannot describe how i felt after reading this, but this pretty much sums up my emotions

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## notorious_eagle

DARKY said:


> And those multi dollar Erieye AEW&C systems would be sitting ducks....... In front of Novator K-172



Words cannot describe how i felt after reading this, but this pretty much sums up my emotions

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## DARKY

notorious_eagle said:


> *Words cannot describe* how i felt after reading this, but this pretty much sums up my emotions


 
Leave the pain of describing your words to else where
http://www.defence.pk/forums/general-defence/33615-novator-k-100-awacs-killer.html

Although that is an old thread and a bit derailed to.......still I guess it would give you the answer......of you using the  smiley twice....
Somehow laughing is always good for health.......


----------



## notorious_eagle

DARKY said:


> Leave the pain of describing your words to else where
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/general-defence/33615-novator-k-100-awacs-killer.html
> 
> Although that is an old thread and a bit derailed to.......still I guess it would give you the answer......of you using the  smiley twice....
> Somehow laughing is always good for health.......


 
Already seen the thread. 

Maybe it didn't occur to you, but the missile is yet to be operational but you already passed the judgment that the Erieyes will be sitting duck infront of it. The farther the missile is, the lower the probability of it hitting its mark especially if the target is not sitting static and is being escorted with fighter planes. Another very important factor, the sheer jamming power an AWAC carries makes it very hard for a missile to lock on. Obviousally you didnt think about that, since your a fanboy . You just saw the range and the shiny new missile and went all GAGA over it.

But your right, this statement "And those multi dollar Erieye AEW&C systems would be sitting ducks....... In front of Novator K-172", definitely made me laugh. Infact, anyone who has decent knowledge about military aviation will be laughing after reading this statement.

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## MilSpec

Does your FC1 jet has any active data link with SAAB Erieye AEW&C, Or you F16's and Mirage rose have an active data link with ZDK Chinese AEW&C????

What kind of fighter escorts will Both kind of AEW&C have???

And how do exactly Jam the Anti radiation Missile? R 172 is being modified to have passive radiation homing


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## notorious_eagle

sandy_3126 said:


> Does your FC1 jet has any active data link with SAAB Erieye AEW&C, Or you F16's and Mirage rose have an active data link with ZDK Chinese AEW&C????



PAF is working towards developing a local network data, data linking every PAF asset through a central Ground Station. At current i am not aware of the status but in future they are definitely working on to data link all the assets together. No point of spending billions of dollars if you cant effectively employ them. 



sandy_3126 said:


> What kind of fighter escorts will Both kind of AEW&C have???



Whatever is available



sandy_3126 said:


> And how do exactly Jam the Anti radiation Missile? R 172 is being modified to have passive radiation homing


 
You cannot jam a missile that is passive, but you can definitely jam the source before the missile is launched. Also the missile will be fired from a greater length, it reduces the probability of a kill as the AWAC can turn and escape the missiles kill range. This is what makes AWACS more lethal than a Ground Radar, it is not sitting static and can easily manuveur to adjust to the situation. Taking down an AWAC is a very complex task, something very contrary to what Mr. Darky is proposing.


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## SQ8

notorious_eagle said:


> PAF is working towards developing a local network data, data linking every PAF asset through a central Ground Station. At current i am not aware of the status but in future they are definitely working on to data link all the assets together. No point of spending billions of dollars if you cant effectively employ them.
> 
> 
> 
> Whatever is available
> 
> 
> 
> You cannot jam a missile that is passive, but you can definitely jam the source before the missile is launched. Also the missile will be fired from a greater length, it reduces the probability of a kill as the AWAC can turn and escape the missiles kill range. This is what makes AWACS more lethal than a Ground Radar, it is not sitting static and can easily manuveur to adjust to the situation. Taking down an AWAC is a very complex task, something very contrary to what Mr. Darky is proposing.


 
No.. the MKI will win!!.. 
MKI! MKI!

On a more serious note.. passive systems that relay on emissions to guide themselves only need an alternate source of equivalent emissions.
Stick a towed decoy out that is emitting the same.. the passive seeker goes dumb for the decoy.

In case you are interested in reading a lot of overbloated ideas on killing High values assets and how the Russians and Chinese have found the sword of damocles..
read this for a little spice. 
Hard Kill Counter-ISR Programs
Our friend DARKY here swears by it.

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## DARKY

notorious_eagle said:


> Already seen the thread.
> 
> Maybe it didn't occur to you, but *the missile is yet to be operational *but you already passed the judgment that the Erieyes will be sitting duck infront of it. *The farther the missile is, the lower the probability of it hitting its mark* especially if the target is not sitting static and is being escorted with fighter planes. Another very important factor, the sheer jamming power an AWAC carries makes it very hard for a missile to lock on. Obviousally you didnt think about that, since your a fanboy . You just saw the range and the shiny new missile and went all GAGA over it.
> 
> But your right, this statement "And those multi dollar Erieye AEW&C systems would be sitting ducks....... In front of Novator K-172", definitely made me laugh. Infact, anyone who has decent knowledge about military aviation will be laughing after reading this statement.



It was developed in 1993 was modernized since 2001......still need any proof about its operational status??........let me add in case the air force have been testing these missiles since 2010 on target drones.......and air planes are being modified to carry about 4-6 of them........currently they can carry about 2-3......about the distance part we have something called guidance which differentiates a missile from a Rocket.......If I were to go by your statements then we would not have had BVR missiles........or BVR kills........Try jamming a missile Homing with passive seekers, artificial intellect...and using Infrared homing for the last 40 km.......Again its not a new missile to go gaga over it.

I have been on many other defense forums having very serious discussion over this missile and E-3 but this is 1st I came across someone laughing......good sense of Humor we have here is it.



notorious_eagle said:


> You cannot jam a missile that is passive, but you can definitely *jam the source* before the missile is launched. Also the missile will be fired from a greater length, it reduces the probability of a kill as the *AWAC can turn and escape the missiles kill range*. This is what makes AWACS more lethal than a Ground Radar, it is not sitting static and *can easily manuveur* to adjust to the situation. Taking down an AWAC is a very complex task, something very contrary to what Mr. Darky is proposing.


 
Best of luck.......with Jamming Hybrid-ESA and AESA radars.......I won't name them as people here would jump at my throat.......and they would be coupled with SAP-14 and SAP-518 which have similar capabilities to their counterparts used on the growlers and prowlers......A dozen such aircrafts launching 2-3 x dozen such missiles at about a dozen different places.......under the cover of their own AWACS fleet which is arguably the best available in the world......with only China having a similar system.......and 1st time I have seen some body claiming that an turbo-prop aircraft of the size of erieye could maneuver and get out of the kill zone of missile which would have seekers homing on the target at around 4 mach.

Only if the Americans, Russians, French and Chinese were as smart as you they could've made an A-225 antanob laden with massive radars and jammers.....making them invincible.....and not spend billions on combat plane acquisition !!

Every complex task has a complex solution.......I have mentioned above a few for your complex task.....go through the threads again to find more.......and come up with a solution for my complex problem.......till then I won't post on this topic.....here!!

Thanks
DARKY


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## DARKY

Santro said:


> No.. the MKI will win!!..
> MKI! MKI!
> 
> On a more serious note.. passive systems that relay on emissions to guide themselves only need an alternate source of equivalent emissions.
> Stick a towed decoy out that is emitting the same.. the passive seeker goes dumb for the decoy.
> 
> In case you are interested in reading a lot of overbloated ideas on killing High values assets and how the Russians and Chinese have found the sword of damocles..
> read this for a little spice.
> Hard Kill Counter-ISR Programs
> Our friend DARKY here swears by it.


 
MKI, APA....and Kopp !!!!.......come up with something new 

And about decoys......there won't be a single missile homing......I wonder what kind of decoy can emit such a high power signal comparable to an AWACS and......have such high infrared signature as well.


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## SQ8

DARKY said:


> MKI, APA....and Kopp !!!!.......come up with something new
> 
> And about decoys......there won't be a single missile homing......I wonder what kind of decoy can emit such a high power signal comparable to an AWACS and......have such high infrared signature as well.


 
Ill come up with something new when you do.


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## Jango

TaimiKhan said:


> Here buddy, another pic from a different angle:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Plus if you can know how to use Google, do some searching and you will find out good articles about the PAF ADC, the there are certain PAF related videos where you can see video shots of this command centre on numerous occasions. Also, i do believe there is a separate video by PAF about its air defence activities, in which also this command centre was shown, even though that is a very old video showing the old command centre which at that time was in its own standard a state of the art one, and in the past few years PAF has upgraded this network with more hardware as well as software and the indigenous command and control system is now fully active for the past few months and is working perfectly and exceeded expectations.


 
there is a big Air Defence Centre in chaklala where there is a huge TV screen which has a map of pakistan on the wall, and the whole air movement is shown on it.

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## AsianLion

Pakistani is C4i is the best in Central and South Asia.

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## asad71

The pragmatic father of PAF had undertaken many visionary schemes that has been paying dividend, and has been built upon later. One very practical item was laying cables deep underground connecting all airfields and radar stations.So PAF communication on ground is never jammed or compromised.

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## asad71

danger007 said:


> i don't understand. .. what are you trying to say... so with under ground cables radar stations can't be jammed or compromised? ??
> 
> 
> but never won wars....


Read it again. I said jamming ground communication, ie, land line.


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## Dazzler

great thread @silent hawk keep posting..



guy sach said:


> Its achievement for them that all computers and projectors are working at same time



take your rant to some where else or get reported.


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## assassin123

Which radar systems does iaf use?


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## kaku1

AsianUnion said:


> Pakistani is C4i is the best in Central and South Asia.
> 
> View attachment 74037



So, you think India dont have that kind of systems. With all SIGINT and ELINT? What you talking about bro?

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## Daedalus

*Indian Air force C4ISR capabilities - A year end round up*

Beyond the accretion of new fighter and transport aircraft, it is the on-going digitization of the workings of the Indian Air force (IAF) that is the signature element of its transformation. Adopting information and communication technology (ICT) across the spectrum of its operations, the service is putting in place a new architecture for command, control, communications, computing, intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance (C4ISR) that would make sure that there are no surprises from the enemy and that when bombs are dropped in anger they hit the targets they are actually meant to.

Keeping its lead in ICT initiatives over the Indian Army, IAF launched the first phase of a closed 3G cellular network called Air Force Cellular (AFCEL) in late October that seeks to both enhance communications security (COMSEC) as well as provide assured connectivity at all times. AFCEL is a WCDMA network that will ultimately enable voice, data, video streaming and file sharing between air warriors across India. Phase-I however provides such mobile connectivity only in the National Capital Region. The next phase will see its adoption across all of the IAF's stations as well as mobile unit. Indeed, in addition to a number of fixed AFCEL nodes, there will also be Mobile Base Transmitting Stations (MBTS) which will extend coverage to remote locations as well. . These nodes will facilitate a full IP network with stringent quality of service, high quality voice and of course data solutions. The system Integrator for AFCEL is HCL Infosystems with technology partners Alcatel Lucent India and the IAF's AFCEL Project Team. Once fully operational , IAF believes as reflected in the words of Air Chief Browne "that provision of this capability will keep our men and women connected to the Information Grid and ensure high situational awareness as well as greater synergy in Command and Control (C2) functions."



Tying in to IAF's new digitized communication network are ICT initiatives at maintenance command that will actually generate the data that will run through the system for effective control and deployment of war fighting capability. In early November, Wipro was handed an over Rs 900 crore contract by IAF to electronically monitor and automate the management of its fleet. Wipro which has won out in competition that also featured the likes of TCS, will provide an 'electronically captured dashboard sort of system which will replace the old system of manual logbooks' according to IAF officials. Ultimately as part of the multi-year project, IAF will set up 'an enterprise-wide, online maintenance management system covering configuration management, fleet planning and management, maintenance repair and overhaul and will enable precise mobilization of assets and real time command and control optimization. The e-maintenance system will eventually be implemented in more than 170 locations, covering nearly 600 IAF units.

These ICT initiatives essentially serve as a back end to AF-NET which has replaced the IAF's old main communication network set-up using tropo-scatter technology from the 1950s. Under AF-NET all major formations and static establishments have been linked through WAN and are accessible via data communication channels. Significantly, the nationwide programme was launched by the IAF in collaboration with private industry to link all field units using a dedicated satellite which will be launched in 2014.

AFNET incorporates the latest traffic transportation technology in the form of internet protocol (IP) packets over the network using multi-protocol label switching (MPLS). A large voice over internet protocol (VoIP) layer with stringent quality of service enforcement will facilitate robust, high quality voice, video and conferencing solutions. Now, the IAF's emerging Integrated Air Command and Control System (IACCS), an automated command and control system for AD operations will ride the AFNET backbone integrating all ground-based and airborne sensors, AD weapon systems and C2 nodes. The IACCS will consist of ten major nodes with each node having ADDCs under it which in turn will be continuously connected with both Air Staff HQ as well regional command HQs. These ten nodes will emerge out of the IAF's drive to both introduce network capable systems at existing sites as well as set up new AD sites in light of the evolving threat picture in the north and north east from China and Pakistan. Importantly, the IACCS will also bring AD coverage to the Southern peninsula.



The IACSS by 2015-17 will have under its purview a fully modernized fleet of early warning and electronic countermeasures (ECM) resistant radars. As of now the IAF's chief ground based radar assets are the THD-1955, 36D6 and the P-12/18 family and the indigenous INDRA-II. While these legacy assets have served the IAF well, their age means that system frequencies have likely been gauged by India's opponents who would have also developed relevant ECMs. Moreover though these systems have undergone some upgradation over the years aimed at enhancing their electronic counter countermeasures (ECCM) capabilities, their inherent upgradability itself is limited by the fact that they aren't really digital or software defined.

As such the IAF has begun to progressively induct contemporary jam-resistant radars with digital receiver and programmable signal processing. This means that the software defined back ends of these radars can re-programmed to keep ECCM capability up to date. The IAF is also introducing its first ground based active arrays in the form of the Arudra MPR boasts advanced digital processing technologies such as digital beam forming and programmable signal processing to fully exploit the capabilities of its S-band solid state active aperture that can detect and track fighter sized targets from more than 300 km away. The radar is also capable of both stand alone as well as network centric modes, although in the latter department Arudhra apparently offers extremely potent capabilities. Replacing the P-12/18 family is DRDO's Rohini 3D which has a range of around 150 kms for fighter sized targets been designed for mobility and survivability and is mounted on two high mobility TATRA vehicles with the power unit being in a third TATRA that hosts 2 X 125 kva generators. LRDE claims that the entire set up can be deployed or decamped in 30 minutes. Though a mechanically steered pulse Doppler array, Rohini's ECCM capability owing to its all-digital environment is noteworthy.



The advent of a serious air threat from China has meant that the IAF has had to move much more quickly on filling gaps in India's mountainous regions. This is being accomplished through the induction of a number of low level light weight radars of both French as well as Indian origin. Cognizant of the enormous difficulties in keeping round-the-clock radar coverage in mountainous areas, IAF is well into the process of bringing in 18 Aslesha Low level Light Weight Transportable radars (LLWTRs) of indigenous origin which as per DRDO is "a multifaceted ground based S-Band 3D LLWTR for deployment in diverse terrains like plains, deserts, mountain tops and high altitude regions and can also scan valleys". Interestingly this quadripod-mounted radar can operate in networked or stand-alone modes and features multiple Electronic Counter Counter Measures (ECCMs). Given its potency against even relatively low RCS targets such as UAVs, the Aslesha represents a quick way to provide coverage as well as extend the reach of the overall air defence 'network.'



However, true situational awareness in mountainous areas cannot be achieved without deploying airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) in numbers and this is exactly where the recently acquired IL-76 based PHALCONs are proving to be a game changer. The PHALCON's EL/M-2075 radar can detect low radar cross section (RCS) targets amidst background clutter from hundreds of kilometres away, 24 x 7 and under all weather conditions. Its AESA technology allows it to achieve superior target discrimination in comparison to mechanically steered arrays and also makes it less susceptible to interception and jamming. For instance track initiation by the EL/M-2075 is achieved in 2 to 4 seconds as opposed to the 20 to 40 seconds that is standard with legacy AWACS types sporting rotodomes housing mechanically steered arrays. Coupled with a state-of-the-art IFF, the PHALCON does seem to live up to its role as an airborne C2 asset. The IFF system incidentally also employs solid state phased array technology to perform interrogation, decoding, target detection and tracking while utilizing a monopulse technique to implement azimuth measurement. Connected to the PHALCON via the BEL link-2, the IAF's BVRAAM armed Su-30 MKIs can be reasonably expected to establish air superiority over sub-continental skies in a relatively short period of time. The PHALCON in any case will be a key element in the IACCS's cruise missile defence posture given its characteristics. At the moment two more PHALCONs are on order from Israel, but it is clear that more will have to be brought in given the Chinese Airforce's posture vis a vis India.

In the near future the PHALCON will be supplemented by three DRDO developed Embraer ERJ-145 based AEW&C which will operate in conjunction with the PHALCON. This indigenously developed system with its primary radar being an S-band AESA is expected to deliver features such as high performance tracking and priority tracking with reference to fighter sized targets. Besides the primary radar these modified ERJ-145s also house a secondary surveillance radar (SSR), ESM, CSM, mission communication system (MCS) consisting of SATCOM and data links (such as the Link-2) and a comprehensive self-protection suite (SPS). It is also noteworthy that the modified ERJ-145 used in this program is in-flight refuelling capable.

Satisfied with the first indigenous AEW&C project, the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) gave 'in principle' approval to DRDO to complete development of a much larger indigenous AEW & C system in the PHALCON class within a period of 84 months. Once developed this system, which naturally be based on an IL-76 sized aircraft will remove India's dependence on foreign sources for high end C2I operations and provide round the clock coverage of most of India's airspace. IAF sees itself operating at last 20 fixed wing early warning aircraft by the 2020s.

IAF is also bringing more aerostats equipped with the EL/M-2083 radar which is reported to be a derivative of the 'Green Pine' missile defence radar used in the Arrow anti-ballistic missile (ABM) system. The EL/M-2083 given its reported antecedents is probably a L-band phased array radar capable of search, acquisition as well as fire-control. It can acquire and track targets at both "high" and "low" altitudes, identify targets such as cruise missiles and unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) against background clutter. It also performs its scans electronically in both azimuth as well as elevation and does so out to a potential 500 km. A potential buy of up to a dozen such systems from foreign sources may be in the offing with more inductions once indigenous types like the Aerial Delivery Research and Development Establishment's (ADRDE's) in development 'Nakshatra' aerostat becomes available.

In addition, IAF seems to be finally progress in its bid to bring in nine 'special mission' jet aircraft, whose procurement was cleared by the Defence Acquisition Council in April this year. Two out of these nine aircraft are expected to perform a signals Intelligence (SIGINT) role while the rest will be configured for communications jamming (COMJAM), aerial survey, flaring and target towing. In the past, this particular tender had run into heavy weather due to cost escalation issues, but there are indications that it might just go through this time over. The chief contenders in the fray are joint offerings by IAI and Embraer on one hand and Hawker Beechcraft and Raytheon on the other.

Saurav Jha's Blog : Indian Air force C4ISR capabilities - A year end round up

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## Storm Force

I hope this clears up ANOTHER PAKISTANI MYTH about PAF having the best

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## TOPGUN

Storm Force said:


> I hope this clears up ANOTHER PAKISTANI MYTH about PAF having the best



Nothing is a myth , nor do we or does your iaf have the best simple as that but what we have is good enough and I am sure so is yours call it a day rather then seeing whos dick is bigger.

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## silent hawk

Nice to see that this thread has by now is among the top 15 most viewed threads in this forum.

Real Life issues have kept me away from this forum for some time. A lot has happened in between. PAF has acquired new systems such as SPADA. Various Tactical Data links have become operational. The latest history book of PAF has been published where they have finally published the contributions of Project Vision. This project was initiated by Air Cdre Shahid Hamid Shigri and has created a world class highly capable C4ISR system which is capable of thwarting Indian aggressive designs. The command and control systems shown in the video below are all indigenous developments of Project Vision. They played an important role in deterring Indian designs in 2002 and would do so even today. 






I am sure there are developments on the Indian side as well. Would try to post more data here and would request members with domain knowledge to do the same. As always my aim is to make this a once stop location for those seeking knowledge about this topic.

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## Mustang06

TOPGUN said:


> call it a day rather then seeing whos dick is bigger.


Very true!


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## Abingdonboy

silent hawk said:


> I am sure there are developments on the Indian side as well. Would try to post more data here and would request members with domain knowledge to do the same. As always my aim is to make this a once stop location for those seeking knowledge about this topic.


Latest development is the IAF's IACC:





Integrated Air Command and Control System (IACCS) is an automated Air Defense Command and Control center for controlling and monitoring of Air Operations by Air Force. In network centric warfare era, Recognized Air Situation Picture (RASP) information plays a very critical role and is required to be made available at the appropriate level for executing series of tactical decisions. These levels are strategic level (Air head Quarter),Operational level (Command Head quarter) and Tactical Level (Divisional level).The information sharing involves sharing of the critical data through dedicated links among Navy, Army and Civil Radar network also. The IACCS system receives data from different types of homogeneous/ heterogeneous radars (2-D or 3-D), generate reports from mobile observation posts and integrates other data elements from various other Air Force Airbases or Civilian agencies viz Air Traffic Control, Air Force Movement Liaison Unit including airborne AWACS etc. to create real time comprehensive Recognized Air Situation Picture (RASP) at IACCS Command & Control Centre (C & C Centre). The connectivity of sensors/agencies from/to the IACCS - C and C Centre is deployed on a wide area network based on IP protocol.




*Flashback:*
On September 14, 2010, the Indian Air Force launched its much-awaited digital information grid, AFNET, signifying a new era of communication and information in the IAF. AFNET replaces IAF’s old communication network using the tropo-scatter technology of the 1950s, and marks a major step towards becoming a net-centric combat force. AFNET is a dedicated fibre-optic wide area network that offers up to 500 MBPS encrypted, secure bandwidth.


It incorporates the latest traffic transportation technology in the form of IP (Internet Protocol) packets over the network using Multi Protocol Label Switching (MPLS). A large VoIP (Voice over Internet Protocol) layer with stringent quality of service enforcement facilitates robust, high quality voice, video and conferencing solutions. Integrated Air Command and Control System (IACCS), an automated command and control system for Air Defence (AD) operations, will ride the AFNET backbone integrating all ground-based and airborne sensors, AD weapon systems and C2 nodes. Subsequent integration with other services networks and civil radars will provide an integrated Air Situation Picture to operators to carry out AD role. All major formations and static establishments have been linked through a secure Wide Area Network (WAN) and are accessible through data communication lines. Decision-makers can now get intelligence inputs (for example, live video feed from UAVs, geoint images from AWACS etc.) from far-flung areas at central locations seamlessly.

*Current Developments:*
As of September 2015, five years after the deployment of AFNET - The Indian Air Force has already established 5 nodes of the IACCS in the western sector facing Pakistan at Barnala (Punjab), Wadsar (Gujarat), Aya Nagar (Delhi), Jodhpur (Rajasthan) and Ambala (Haryana) with help from government owned defence contractor - Bharat Electronics Limited.
The 4 new major nodes and 10 new sub-nodes will come up under Phase-II of the IACCS project. While 3 nodes will be deployed in eastern, central and southern India, the fourth is meant for the strategically-located Andaman and Nicobar Islands archipelago in Bay of Bengal, watching over Malacca Strait. 
The primary objective to deploy such an integrated solution derived from all airborne and ground-based civilian and military radars around the country, is to ensure any intrusion by a hostile aircraft, helicopter, drone or micro-light can be detected and tackled as soon as it takes place. It has been speculated, some of the new nodes will be located in underground complexes to improve survivability at the time of enemy attacks, even as the entire IACCS infrastructure is also being upgraded with advanced early-warning, jam-resistant radars and the like.

*Future:
1. Deployment of Air Force Specific Satellites, starting with GSAT-7A : *
An advanced communication satellite GSAT-7A for the Indian Air Force is currently being developed in ISRO Satellite Centre, GSAT-7A is similar to Indian navy's GSAT-7 which will enable IAF to interlink different ground radar stations, ground airbase and Airborne early warning and control AWACS such as Beriev A-50 Phalcon and DRDO AEW&CS. Due Launch : End of 2015

*2. Enhancing the capabilities of Integrated Space Cell :*
This particular command was established by previous Indian government under Dr. Manmohan Singh as Prime Minister, which basically leverages on various space technologies including satellites. Unlike an aerospace command, where the air force controls most of its activities, the Integrated Space Cell envisages cooperation and coordination between the three services as well as civilian agencies dealing with space. A strong and a deterrent Integrated Air Command and Control System (IACCS) plays a very important role in this command by funneling RSAP information and directing it towards required terminals of approved elements. 
*Conclusion:*
Within next 5 years, IACCS is going to enable high situational awareness for all war fighters and the battle commanders even at “remote from the battlefield” locations. Also, The IAF would, in 10 years, be moving towards dynamic targeting of it's ordnance.It would be in the process of developing capability to data link with, say a missile in flight, to reassign its target or modify its attack profile on the fly. Being a state-of-the-art technology-driven organisation, the IAF has been in a state of transformation since the day of it's inception. However, the speed of technological advancements has led to greater emphasis on its current transformation. When we look at IACCS and it's aspects - this transformation share the common characteristic of being tailor-made to make the IAF more efficient and effective in execution of the combat roles.

ANALYSIS | India's Integrated Air Command & Control System (IACCS) : A NCW Milestone|IndraStra Global : Analysis, On The Dot

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## silent hawk

Last Samuri said:


> india HAS MASSIVE SPACE TECHNOLOGY...
> 
> india has ten times the money of the Pakistanis.
> 
> IT GOES with out saying in this arena INDIA is far far ahead of Pakistan.
> 
> NON DEBATE



Actually since 1980 PAF has maintained a clear edge in this domain. The following article by an Indian is proof in this regard.

http://www.claws.in/images/journals_doc/SW J.99-106.pdf

Also in the very useful article above in the conclusion it is mentioned that it will take five more years before a high state of awareness is achieved . In Pakistan that state is already there. Keep watching this thread to discover further capabilities of our automation system.

PAF's Air Defence has a very organized structure which incorporates all elements. There are different command and control systems at various levels which allow graceful degeneration in case of system malfunction or degradation. The structure is given below:-








The IACCS structure on the other hand seems to have a single point of failure.







Are there redundancies in this system because from this diagram destruction of the operational level ADCC would neutralize the whole system.

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## Abingdonboy

silent hawk said:


> Actually since 1980 PAF has maintained a clear edge in this domain. The following article by an Indian is proof in this regard.
> 
> http://www.claws.in/images/journals_doc/SW J.99-106.pdf
> 
> Also in the very useful article above in the conclusion it is mentioned that it will take five more years before a high state of awareness is achieved . In Pakistan that state is already there. Keep watching this thread to discover further capabilities of our automation system.
> 
> PAF's Air Defence has a very organized structure which incorporates all elements. There are different command and control systems at various levels which allow graceful degeneration in case of system malfunction or degradation. The structure is given below:-
> 
> View attachment 262288
> 
> 
> 
> The IACCS structure on the other hand seems to have a single point of failure.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are there redundancies in this system because from this diagram destruction of the operational level ADCC would neutralize the whole system.


The IAF's ADCC (Air defence Command and Control) is not a single entity but a dispersed network of integrated operational command centres. As the diagram indicates, these independent ADCCs receive data/information from all relevant sensors and centres to form an integrated picture of all Indian air space. There are multiple layers of redundancy built in at every level.

This is data fusion on a mind-boggling scale.



silent hawk said:


> Actually since 1980 PAF has maintained a clear edge in this domain. The following article by an Indian is proof in this regard.
> 
> http://www.claws.in/images/journals_doc/SW J.99-106.pdf


Rather outdated now. The IACC didn't even exist in 2012 and AFNET was in its nascent stages.


IACC itself ties in all available sensors on both a tactical and strategic level (AWACS, civil radar, naval radar, army radar, air force radar, satellites etc etc) to form an unparalleled picture of Indian airspace. I can't see how Pakistan/PAF has any edge now. Thanks to MASSIVE investment (billions of USD) the IAF has surpassed all regional forces in this regard and has one of the most advanced systems in the world in place. 

How the PAF could match such a colossal investment is beyond me.

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## CHI RULES

May be integration of systems are there in in case of PAF but capabilities required to be improved like anti stealth capabilities, high altitude SAMS specifically capable to counter jets flying above 60,000 Ft., Jamming and Anti Jamming capabilities, Satellite based defense capabilities etc. Our air defense should not be India centric only as with development of economic corridor we may face many other challenges. We may face today's friends as foes.with changing dimensions of Iran/Arab conflict as Pak can't keep itself away from this conflict for long.

If someone may negate my points with facts he will be highly appreciated.


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## silent hawk

Abingdonboy said:


> Rather outdated now. The IACC didn't even exist in 2012 and AFNET was in its nascent stages.
> 
> .



The advantage which I wanted to highlight was experience. We are more than 30 years ahead in operating, maintaining and developing Air Defence Automation Systems. Indians are always talking about the large amounts of money they have. Unfortunately you cannot buy experience.



CHI RULES said:


> . Our air defense should not be India centric only as with development of economic corridor we may face many other challenges. We may face today's friends as foes.with changing dimensions of Iran/Arab conflict as Pak can't keep itself away from this conflict for long.
> 
> .



I totally agree with your point of view. PAF is cognizant of the evolving scenario and after Abbottabad it is no longer India centric. Radar coverage now covers the whole of Pakistan instead of just covering the eastern border. Further advancements are also being done in this domain.


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## Stealth

Mine is better thn urz.. yours is shit mine is WOW... your using old i am using latest.. in short dhakan comparison! both Air force equipped according to their need, investment and according to their level of interest in Air command. IMO, in today's world, every Air force equipped with latest technologies.

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## silent hawk

Stealth said:


> Mine is better thn urz.. yours is shit mine is WOW... your using old i am using latest.. in short dhakan comparison! .



Well I would have to admit that such sort of exchanges are fun and as long as decency is maintained I feel there is nothing wrong about it. After all this is a discussion forum and one purpose of such discussions is to have fun.

I remember that when I started this thread five years ago i had quite such exchanges with Rockstar.

But this thread is not just about fun and frolic. To me there is no other place where so much data on this topic is available at one place. This of course is mutually beneficial.

There is another reason for spending time here. I like getting likes and feel good when the views of this thread increase.

Thanks everyone for viewing this thread more than 100,000 times

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## Ali_Baba

An old thread for sure, but recent events have shown that AFNET is not quite as good as the PR Video suggests. Where do they go from here? You would have thought, that one thing that the Indians would be good at, is Software development !!!!!


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## Haris Ali2140

So much for:

RISAT with 1 m resolution which can see through clouds
BARS with 400 km range which will kill F 16 at 125 km
Bisons with Israeli jammers, Kypo radars and with BVRs

And C4I systems years ahead of Pakistan. And when the time came even the radios were not working.

@silent hawk Sir you stand corrected 100%.

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## Robin rone

Haris Ali2140 said:


> So much for:
> 
> RISAT with 1 m resolution which can see through clouds
> BARS with 400 km range which will kill F 16 at 125 km
> Bisons with Israeli jammers, Kypo radars and with BVRs
> 
> And C4I systems years ahead of Pakistan. And when the time came even the radios were not working.
> 
> @silent hawk Sir you stand corrected 100%.


As I said in other thread's Pakistan don't have to do apples to Orange comparison with what India have , in my view Pakistan have better synergy and resource utilization than India, feb27 was a proof of that, even IAF generation ahead of paf in network oriented warfare and operations, their miss calculation or over confidence bit back in their Ares, am pretty much sure IAF was well aware of PAF package and wait till something to happen but reason they only filed 8 aircraft for cap shows either incapbility in service rate or lack of proper counter bvr or stand off attack doctrines, one point I not agreeing with this forum is fielding mig21 the mig21 bis was upgraded and they done well against f16 in cup India exercises the reason for its shoot down mostly the pilot over stepped his stay in Pakistan soil and well planed paf ambush tactics, considering spider Sam deployed on afb Srinagar and friendly fire from their part shows some operational deficiency in IAF air defence producer's so next time Feb 27 like situations raises paf may or maynot have option to exploit this vulnerability, "its not million dollar equipment make u win a war its the man who using it "

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## GriffinsRule

Robin rone said:


> As I said in other thread's Pakistan don't have to do apples to Orange comparison with what India have , in my view Pakistan have better synergy and resource utilization than India, feb27 was a proof of that, even IAF generation ahead of paf in network oriented warfare and operations, their miss calculation or over confidence bit back in their Ares, am pretty much sure IAF was well aware of PAF package and wait till something to happen but reason they only filed 8 aircraft for cap shows either incapbility in service rate or lack of proper counter bvr or stand off attack doctrines, one point I not agreeing with this forum is fielding mig21 the mig21 bis was upgraded and they done well against f16 in cup India exercises the reason for its shoot down mostly the pilot over stepped his stay in Pakistan soil and well planed paf ambush tactics, considering spider Sam deployed on afb Srinagar and friendly fire from their part shows some operational deficiency in IAF air defence producer's so next time Feb 27 like situations raises paf may or maynot have option to exploit this vulnerability, "its not million dollar equipment make u win a war its the man who using it "



The reason for the easy shoot down of the Mig-21 was the AWACS flying in Pakistan. Had it not been for that sort of a battlefield picture being available, it might have actually posed a threat to PAF fighters.


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## AsianLion

PAF now needs a much better command and control system after Rafale fighters and new command & control systems of Indian Airforce.


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