# Indira Gandhi planned a mass invasion of Pakistan | CIA Records



## Ganga

A minister of Indira Gandhi's cabinet betrayed India's "war objectives" to the Central Intelligence Agency in December 1971, causing an abrupt end to the Bangladesh war under vicious US armtwisting.

This is the highlight of the book CIA's Eye on South Asia by journalist Anuj Dhar. Published by Delhi-based Manas Publications, which is facing government's ire for coming out with a book on the R&AW, the book compiles declassified CIA records on India and her neighbours. It specifically spotlights what arguably has been India's biggest spy scandal.

In the run up to the 1971 India Pakistan war over what was then East Pakistan (now Bangladesh), The New York Times first hinted at the presence of a CIA operative in the Indian government. By December The Washington Post had reported that US President Richard Nixon's South Asia policy was being guided by "reports from a source close to Mrs. Gandhi."

Records and telecons declassified recently - but not properly explained up till now - show that a dramatic turnaround came on December 6 when a CIA operative, whom Dhar pins down as a minister of the Indira Cabinet, leaked out India's "war objectives" to the agency. *Prime Minister Gandhi told Union Cabinet that apart from liberating Bangladesh, India intended to take over a strategically important part of the Pakistan Occupied Kashmir and go for the total annihilation of Pakistan's armed forces so that Pakistan "never attempts to challenge India in the future."
*
When he came to know of the CIA report, a furious Nixon blurted out that "this woman [Indira Gandhi] suckered us," thinking that Mrs. Gandhi had promised him that India won't attack East Pakistan - not to speak of targeting West Pakistan and ***. "But let me tell you, she's going to pay," he told his National Security Advisor Dr Henry Kissinger even as he tried to leak out the CIA report to give her bad press.

The CIA went on assess that fulfillment of India's "war objectives" might lead to "the emergence of centrifugal forces which could shatter West Pakistan into as many as three or four separate countries."

As a direct result of the operative's information, the Nixon administration went on an overdrive to save West Pakistan from a massive Indian assault. Because the President felt that "international morality will be finished - the United Nations will be finished - if you adopt the principle that because a country is democratic and big it can do what the hell it pleases."

Nixon personally threatened the USSR with a "major confrontation" between the superpowers should the Soviets failed to stop the Indians from going into West Pakistan. Kissinger secretly met Chinese Permanent Representative at the UN to apprise him of the CIA operative's report and rub in that what India was planning to do with Pakistan with the Soviet backing could turn out to be a "dress rehearsal" of what they might do to China.

Dhar quotes in the book the official records showing that USSR's First Deputy Foreign Minister Vasily Kuznetsov visited Delhi after Nixon's threat and told the "Indians to confine their objectives to East Pakistan" and "not to try and take any part of West Pakistan, including Azad Kashmir" as "Moscow was concerned about the possibility of a great power confrontation over the subcontinent." Kuznetsov also extracted a guarantee from Prime Minister Gandhi that India will not attack West Pakistan. This decision was promptly conveyed to Nixon. On 16 December 1971 when Nixon was told that India had declared a ceasefire, he exulted: "We have made it it's the Russians working for us.*" Kissinger congratulated him for saving West Pakistan - India's main target, as per the operative's report to the CIA.*

Dhar repudiates recent assertion by a former Indian Navy chief that showing up of America's biggest nuclear powered carrier into the Bay of Bengal during the war had something to do with the accidental destruction of a US plane in Dhaka during an Indian strafing. "Declassified records make it unambiguously clear that the month-long show of strength by the USS Enterprise and accompanying flotilla was a byproduct of the CIA operative's reports," he writes, reproducing chunks from official records detailing how Nixon ordered a naval task force towards the subcontinent to "scare off" India from attacking West Pakistan.

In subsequent years, former Prime Minister Morarji Desai, and two deputy PMs - Jagjivan Ram and Y B Chavan - were alleged to be the CIA operative active during the 1971 war. However, all such charges lacked any substantiation because there was no confirmation whether or not such an operative ever existed. As such no constructive discussion on the issue ever took off. This has changed now given the unassailable evidence in the form of US records making it clear that the CIA had a "reliable" agent operating out of the Indian cabinet in 1971.

In declassified records the name of the operative has been censored because the CIA Director has "statutory obligations to protect from disclosure [the Agency's] intelligence sources." Dhar writes: "Naming the Indian operative even after so many years will adversely impact the Indo-US relations, and hit the Agency's prospects of recruiting new informants."

However, he suggests that Indian government may have known the identity of the operative. "R&AW under the most capable R. N. Kao could not have missed the reference to the 'source close to Mrs. Gandhi' and must have dug deeper," he writes, adding that in 1972 Mrs. Gandhi herself charged that "she had information that the CIA had become active in India".

More pertinently, Dhar quotes from the declassified record of a 5 October 1972 meeting between Indian Foreign Minister Swaran Singh and US Secretary of State William Rogers. During the meeting, Singh asserted that "CIA has been in contact with people in India in 'abnormal ways.'" and that India had information that "proceedings of Congress Working Committee were known to US officials within two hours of meetings".

End the secrecy: CIA Records Take Lid Off High Treason By Indira Cabinet Minister

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## somebozo

Well the show is out for the whole world to see what Pakistan did with Indian allies they were blindly riding. Indian ambitions for past 63 years have been total anhillation of Pakistan because they cannot beat down anyone into submission as long Pakistan sticks like a thorn in their policies. Imagine with no Pakistan all the small south asian countries like Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Nepal, Bhutan and Kashmir will not dare oppose a word against India.



> Because the President felt that "international morality will be finished - the United Nations will be finished - *if you adopt the principle that because a country is democratic and big it can do what the hell it pleases*."



Back then the United States was popular due to its fair play policy and Soviets were the evil repressive forces. Its clear to see that they did not jump to protect Pakistan for its mistakes. Yes East-Pakistan was being repressed and yes they launched a rebellion and this was all internal matter of Pakistan. The Americans did not approve of Pakistani attrocities or took sides no matter how strong the alliance was. However the words in bold are ironic as America is totally doing the opposite right now. Invading Iraq and Afghanistan to install democracy.

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## manava

i seriously believe if we had one more leader like Indira Gandhi.. all our neighbors would have sat quietly...but we would have had to pay price for that with something as Pakistan now doing because of her mistake during soviet war.i would like to take example from china.. because whenever they had any objective they always took that to a logical end.. which we haven't been able to do because we lacked leaders with guts..
i am not telling here that we had to occupy Pakistan.. that was never our objective.. but as this article points out .. we could have taken *** .. that would have sent right signals to them... now they consider we cannot do anything .. so they export terrorism even though whole world know about it but still we are targeted... we simply do nothing..this is where our leaders guts can be questioned... and Pakistan always had leader who had guts... means mainly military which holds Pakistan's foreign policy for most part of it's life.

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## somebozo

If India had another leader like Indra it would lead no where but self destruct and balkanized. Sooner or later it would grow weakers, sanctioned and every neighbouring state jumping in for a pie. Indra by herself had no balls..she borrowed them from Russians..with Russian gone it was saga of impotency once again. On the flip side what did India do to protect their all weather friends in Afghanistan??

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## Avatar

somebozo said:


> If India had another leader like Indra it would lead no where but self destruct and balkanized. Sooner or later it would grow weakers, sanctioned and every neighbouring state jumping in for a pie.



Indira Gandhi was strong and brave, not ruthless.

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## Kyusuibu Honbu

Avatar said:


> Indira Gandhi was strong and brave, not *ruthless*.



Er...........1984,election emergency etc are certainly not examples of a _kind_ person.Lets agree she had her share of wrongdoings.


Indira Gandhi was most impacted by the criticism of her father Nehru being very soft and naive,hence it in way tailored her character.She certainly outdid her father,

Also gave us a picture of the fact had Nehru been a realist what impact it would"ve had on India.(Hint:not necessarily positive)

I'm proud of her for her actions in 1971.
Also aware of her share of blunders.

According to the book :The clash of fundamentalisms
After the fall of Dhaka Indian generals planned for an invasion of West Pakistan with the so called agenda of "finish off the enemy".But luckily Indira Gandhi never approved so because she believed military should be firmly under civilian control and also there is a chance that we may lose what we"ve earned so far.

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## illuminatidinesh

> i seriously believe if we had one more leader like Indira Gandhi.. all our neighbors would have sat quietly...but we would have had to pay price for that with something as Pakistan now doing because of her mistake during soviet war.i would like to take example from china.. because whenever they had any objective they always took that to a logical end.. which we haven't been able to do because we lacked leaders with guts..
> i am not telling here that we had to occupy Pakistan.. that was never our objective.. but as this article points out .. we could have taken *** .. that would have sent right signals to them... now they consider we cannot do anything .. so they export terrorism even though whole world know about it but still we are targeted... we simply do nothing..this is where our leaders guts can be questioned... and Pakistan always had leader who had guts... means mainly military which holds Pakistan's foreign policy for most part of it's life.


No I think I must disagree with u here. It is old story what Nixon thought about Mrs Gandhi, now dont compare the leaders based on guts. Their system is different and ours is as well. 
Look where we stand now in the global stage,despite the struggle what you mentioned. War was never answer.
Regards.

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## RPK

with out Indra India will not be selfsufficent in Atomic, Missiles, Green revolution, Space research & even in IT field


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## gowthamraj

Avatar said:


> Indira Gandhi was strong and brave, not ruthless.



Mate that statement is common for their people. Their media even publish to their people that she is ***. . . . . Bla bla


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## prototype

now all those dont matter,we have already done the mistake


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## Gentle Typhoon

Indira was 'Scorpio', may sting you, if you mess with them. Commitment and power&#8230; these two are the major keywords, which describe a Scorpio the best. When they love someone, they do it from the core of their heart and when they hate someone, they are extremely loyal to their hatred.

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## Patrician

manava said:


> i seriously believe if we had one more leader like Indira Gandhi.. all our neighbors would have sat quietly...but we would have had to pay price for that with something as Pakistan now doing because of her mistake during soviet war.i would like to take example from china.. because whenever they had any objective they always took that to a logical end.. which we haven't been able to do because we lacked leaders with guts..
> i am not telling here that we had to occupy Pakistan.. that was never our objective.. but as this article points out .. we could have taken *** .. that would have sent right signals to them... now they consider we cannot do anything .. so they export terrorism even though whole world know about it but still we are targeted... we simply do nothing..this is where our leaders guts can be questioned... and Pakistan always had leader who had guts... means mainly military which holds Pakistan's foreign policy for most part of it's life.



*In short, we do things half-heartedly*

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## Markus

No mention of US Seventh Fleet at all. I doubt if Soviets would give in to US pressure so easily.

Nonsense.

and the biggest joke is this (that too after what China did to India in 1962):-



Ganga said:


> Kissinger secretly met Chinese Permanent Representative at the UN to apprise him of the CIA operative's report and rub in that what India was planning to do with Pakistan with the Soviet backing could turn out to be a *"dress rehearsal" of what they might do to China.*

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## manava

best example was hijack of plane... and advani in recent election started telling that he wasn't aware of the situation that time and all was done by jaswanth singh ..
i always thought if we had first prime minister subhash chandra bose or lal bahadhur shastri we would have been different country.(both were killed and we never how they were killing..i still don't understand how our great personalities like vikram sarabhai or subhash chandra bose or lal bahadhur shastri or homi jahangir bhaba got killed we still dono any thing about it). and we would have not seen family politics that is done like now..

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## Ganga

Markus said:


> *No mention of US Seventh Fleet at all*. I doubt if Soviets would give in to US pressure so easily.
> 
> Nonsense.
> 
> and the biggest joke is this (that too after what China did to India in 1962):-



Read the article carefully again.It mentions the US aircraft carrier and the accompanying flotilla.


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## RamGorur

Yup, thats our lady with iron balls. 

Problem is her balls were too large for India itself.

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## Isaq Khan

If iron lady Mrs. Indira Gandhi was allowed to work freely by BJP (janata party) she must have liberated Baluchistan and p0k. Then we don't have to worry about chinese or gwadar port etc.


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## somebozo

Avatar said:


> Indira Gandhi was strong and brave, not ruthless.







rpraveenkum said:


> with out Indra India will not be selfsufficent in Atomic, Missiles, Green revolution, Space research & even in IT field



So was Lenin and Stalin and so was Soviet union self sufficent in missles and aerospace. That did not protect Soviet Union from balkanization.



Dr sim said:


> I just wonder what is ur problem with kashmir then as that too is an internal matter of India



THe same pain you had about east pakistan. Massive abuses of Human rights and repression of sovergien identity.


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## Bang Galore

rpraveenkum said:


> with out Indra India will not be selfsufficent in Atomic, Missiles, Green revolution, Space research & even in IT field





illuminatidinesh said:


> Exactly my thought too...... Some times people think and talk about only about war in the country.... What u mentioned is more important for us and I reckon we choose wise..



Factually incorrect. Nuclear, the origin of the Green revolution etc predated her & the missile program & IT were primarily in the government of Rajiv Gandhi though the IT revolution was largely a private companies led affair starting with Texas instruments opening an office in Bangalore.

Indira Gandhi had only one major success & that was the 1971 war. She came perilously close to damaging the Indian constitution, its judiciary & its democracy by her autocratic actions. Her economic policies, now thankfully jettisoned only served to keep India as a third world state. Her policies in Punjab caused the largest fissure in the Indian state & thousand of lives were lost to her short sightedness. Her Kashmir policy which was continued by her son in the now infamous 1987 elections are why we see the state in a flux even today. Both of these states fell victim to her political maneuvering & a heavy price was & is being paid. Her patronising of the LTTE was disastrous and eventually ended with the taking of her son's life among countless others.

Passage of time & a lack of inclination in the present generation to read & understand history is primarily the reason for this glorification of Indira Gandhi. While she certainly had her pluses, she also had a truckload of minuses that should not be overlooked.

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## magg

> So was Lenin and Stalin and so was Soviet union self sufficent in missles and aerospace. That did not protect Soviet Union from balkanization.



You are a kid, ain't you ??? Because otherwise you must have been be aware about the reasons for Soviet balkanization which had more to do with it's adversary's influence and policies and as far as I can see neither Pak nor China could do that thing to India.


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## somebozo

magg said:


> You are a kid, ain't you ??? Because otherwise you must have been be aware about the reasons for Soviet balkanization which had more to do with it's adversary's influence and policies and as far as I can see neither Pak nor China could do that thing to India.



You reckon the chinese are growing in influence by leaps and bound?? I travel across the middle east for work and I see chinese engaged in projects everywhere from oil and gas to copper and steel. Chinese have sacked the largest mine contracts in Afghanistan. A couple of years ago chinese presence in middle east would have been a joke but now its a reality. And as the chinese foothold grows in middle east it will be at behest of Indian one shriking. A simple example i could give is TATA losing a negotiated deal to Chinese competitor King Long for providing buses to Hajj transportation company. The chinese are even building a software and outsourcing city termed "mini banglore" complete with all facilities in contrast of Indian culture to woo Indian software talent. There are benefits to work with Chinese. Their labour does not dessert as illegal aliens the moment they set their foot on forigen land.

In next five years the silent Chinese economic war against india will begin to bear fruits. There are evening classes coming up in upscale neighbourhoods of Jeddah offering Mandarian language skills. What on earth is a day when arabs are signing up to learn Mandarian??? India is still struggling to honk its smaller neighbours like Bangladesh and Sri Lanka into its sphere of influence yet they self align themselves towards Beijing automatically like a magenetic compasses aligns to north.

Can chinese bear the blank cheque cost of fighting a cold war against India?? Only time will tell as the Indians aint sleeping hare either and will have plenty of tricks under the sleeve.

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## Patriot

Hehe Tell us what we don't already know.This is the reason Pakistan Armed Forces developed at an unprecedented rate after 71 and we also built one of the largest intelligence agency (ISI) in the region.Now all Indians can do is bark .Not to mention our nuclear weapons which continue to wet Indian Dhothis.We have won the war without firing a single bullet.Look how afraid Indians are always of ISI and Pakistan Army.

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## Storm Force

This women Ghandi had real balls.

She annexed East Pakistan in 12 days capturing 100,000 Pakistani Soldiers.

She took on the Sikhs Sant Bhindrawala Which ultimately cost her life. 

She didn,t cow down to Kissenger and the Americans.

She would have eaten Musharaff for Breakfast.

SHE REALLY WAS AN IRON LADY

" Could you imagine Todays powerful India " with a leader like Indra Ghandi. rather than mild mannered Dr Mohan Singh


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

Storm Force said:


> This women Ghandi had real balls.
> 
> She annexed East Pakistan in 12 days capturing 100,000 Pakistani Soldiers.
> 
> * She took on the Sikhs Sant Bhindrawala Which ultimately cost her life. *
> 
> She didn,t cow down to Kissenger and the Americans.
> 
> She would have eaten Musharaff for Breakfast.
> 
> SHE REALLY WAS AN IRON LADY
> 
> " Could you imagine Todays powerful India " with a leader like Indra Ghandi. rather than mild mannered Dr Mohan Singh



I laud her for all those above except the bolded one.

Even someone from 8th century knows when an enemy has taken refugee in structure and made it his stronghold,he best thing to do is wait for the resources to run out,and later capture it.


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## Desert Fox

Looks like Gandhi was wet dreaming when she was planning a full scale invasion of Pakistan! Too bad she got assassinated!


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## Paan Singh

SilentNinja said:


> Looks like Gandhi was wet dreaming when she was planning a full scale invasion of Pakistan! Too bad she got assassinated!



she was half successful.if she would have been today then ur statement could become true very earlier


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## Desert Fox

Prism said:


> she was half successful.if she would have been today *then ur statement could become true very earlier*



you mean the one about her wet dreaming?


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## xyz

Indira Gandhi was the most furious, best, bold, and sharp minded PM of India. Yes of course something wrong happened in 1984 and I condemn it but still thanks to her that terrorism backed by Pakistan was totaly crushed. 
She simply new that Pakistan will always be our rivalry and will always stand to confront us at every mile. Her plans were good and I support them but she couldn't safegaurd them from some moles in our society. 

Personaly I feel that what Morarji Desai did was really un-acceptable. The order he gave to terminate all espionage operations against Pakistan's Nuclear Program was the major hit back for us and our armed forced. Which led to fall in our networks and success in Pakistan.
We could have stopped them long before.


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## Rajput Warrior

Indra is a b.tch=Nixon.


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## xyz

^^^^don't be jealous she just did tit for tat 
your Bhutto tore a piece of paper in UNSC we tore you!!!


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## Rajput Warrior

xyz said:


> ^^^^don't be jealous she just did tit for tat
> your Bhutto tore a piece of paper in UNSC we tore you!!!



Jealous of wat? a women who was killed by her own bodyguard wat we call k...y ki maut?

Also i just quoted Nixon.
Not u Bengalis and russians!
U trained mukti bhani etc... Another faut was of niazi...
Anyways remember 48,63,65 and kargil.... We broke USSR! tht played a major role in 71~!

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## FreekiN

xyz said:


> ^^^^don't be jealous she just did tit for tat
> your Bhutto tore a piece of paper in UNSC we tore you!!!



It's funny because taking on a country 5 times smaller than your own and already having them geographically surrounded is 'fair.' 

Yeah, ok.

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## xyz

Rajput Warrior said:


> Jealous of wat? a women who was killed by her own bodyguard wat we call k...y ki maut?
> 
> Also i just quoted Nixon.
> Not u Bengalis and russians!
> U trained mukti bhani etc... Another faut was of niazi...
> Anyways remember 48,63,65 and kargil.... We broke USSR! tht played a major role in 71~!



remember you lost approx 1000km² in 65?? remember you were torn into 2 pieces in 71??
well thats huge loss. 

you broke USSR who itself got broke into 2 pieces by us??? Come on dude talk some sense. You helped americans in Afghanistan because you guys thought that Americans would help you recapturing Kashmir. You couldnt re capture Kashmir and your putting a nonsense statement that you broke USSR?? Your role is very limited. ISI only worked in Border areas. And after Russians left we supported the Karzai Government against your Talibani Rule and see who won???


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## Rajput Warrior

FreekiN said:


> It's funny because taking on a country 5 times smaller than your own and already having them geographically surrounded is 'fair.'
> 
> Yeah, ok.



Thts called Phobia!

In this case incurable one.

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## xyz

FreekiN said:


> It's funny because taking on a country 5 times smaller than your own and already having them geographically surrounded is 'fair.'
> 
> Yeah, ok.



we have brains so we used it, *be it fair or not*, if you have better brain use it and on time. Its just power play!!


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## FreekiN

xyz said:


> we have brains so we used it, *be it fair or not*, if you have better brain use it and on time. Its just power play!!



"we have a geographical advantage, so we used it, even though the bengal conflict had nothing to do with us"

fixed.

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## Rajput Warrior

xyz said:


> remember you lost approx 1000km&#178; in 65??



Remember lossing half ur airforce?leaving arty n tanks?Begging for a cease for in Tashkent?

remember you were torn into 2 pieces in 71??
well thats huge loss. 



> you broke USSR who itself got broke into 2 pieces by us??? Come on dude talk some sense.



Tht happened after 71! We repaid the favour in 1980s~!
Get an education.



> You helped americans in Afghanistan because you guys thought that Americans would help you recapturing Kashmir.


Half ur country says something else... half say something else!
Kashmir doesnt border afghanistan nor it had russian presence...Common sense.



> You couldnt re capture Kashmir and your putting a nonsense statement that you broke USSR??



In 1980s we wernt fighting indians

Cut ur crap and get some knowledge!


I think 48 nehru begging UN and agreein refrendum should never we forgotten!


> Your role is very limited. ISI only worked in Border areas.



*Who trained a lac mujahedeen?planned ops ? provided logistics, gathered info?etc
Who? Its so retarded when u same indians lie one after another!
On one Place u say we created taliban on other u lie...*



> And after Russians left we supported the Karzai Government against your Talibani Rule and see who won???





Dumbest statement ever!
Taliban government was finished in 2001 when USA invaded!!!!russians lets in the 80s!Again US needs Pakistan more then ever!Remember London confrence did they even invite india?Kabul indian embassy bombings?

*Key word here is KNOWLEDGE!*

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## xyz

Rajput Warrior said:


> Remember lossing half ur airforce?leaving arty n tanks?Begging for a cease for in Tashkent?
> 
> remember you were torn into 2 pieces in 71??
> well thats huge loss.
> 
> 
> 
> Tht happened after 71! We repaid the favour in 1980s~!
> Get an education.
> 
> 
> Half ur country says something else... half say something else!
> Kashmir doesnt border afghanistan nor it had russian presence...Common sense.
> 
> 
> 
> In 1980s we wernt fighting indians
> 
> Cut ur crap and get some knowledge!
> 
> 
> I think 48 nehru begging UN and agreein refrendum should never we forgotten!
> 
> 
> *Who trained a lac mujahedeen?planned ops ? provided logistics, gathered info?etc
> Who? Its so retarded when u same indians lie one after another!
> On one lace u say we created taliban on other u say the other...*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dumbest statement ever!
> Taliban government was finished in 2001 when USA invaded!!!!russians lets in the 80s!Again US needs Pakistan more then ever!Remember London confrence did they even invite india?Kabul indian embassy bombings?
> 
> *Key word here is KNOWLEDGE!*



and my KNOWLEDGE says that, *your begging in front of Americans* right now.
*
We lost airforce, army , navy, everything( your claims) but gained approx. 1700km&#178; of your territory*. Objective Accomplished. You lost much of the territory. 

In 48, your diplomacy failed, in 65 the same thing, in 71 totaly failed in 1999 again failed.

*If you were so well sure about the victory why did you accept the Cease fire so quickly, where as in 71 your Bhutto tore the proposal???* Where as no single MILITARY Leader favored the cease fire on our side.

Coming to cold war Issue, yes you helped americans, but *you were not the only ones *who helped americans. You never had such Economy and such Home build Technology to help Americans(simple fact). *You are just used by the Americans, the Think Tank is the west, financer is that west and you broke USSR?? sounds funny!!*
The abandoning of Communism in East Europe and Economic reforms by Gorbachev was the major reason of the fall of USSR. ((Go through *'Perestroika'*))

Soviet war in Afghan was to support the Democratic Republic of Afghanistan against your homemade Mujahideens(Taliban) FUNDED BY WEST and You played the role in building Taliban and now SUFFERING FROM THEM. 
VERY WELL DONE!!
Idiots!!!

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## Developereo

Avatar said:


> Indira Gandhi was strong and brave, not ruthless.



Wasn't she behind some sort of mass sterilization campaign in India?


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## black flame

RamGorur said:


> Yup, thats our lady with iron balls.
> 
> Problem is her balls were too large for India itself.



she should have been in a different era she should have been the prime minister 5 years form now..................... but it cant be done so lets wish that some one of her caliber rules the country


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## Abu Zolfiqar

that carrot-nosed witch got what she deserved


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## Omar1984

*Nixon's dislike of 'witch' Indira * 






Kissinger and Nixon opposed an independent Bangladesh 

*Ex-US President Richard Nixon called Indian Prime Minister Indira Gandhi an "old witch", according to recently released documents from the 1970s. *

*His national security adviser, Henry Kissinger, said "the Indians are bastards anyway" in the run-up to the India-Pakistan war of 1971.* 

At the time, the US saw India as too close to the then Soviet Union. 

The US state department has declassified many documents this month on US foreign policy of the time. 

One key conversation transcript comes from the meeting between President Nixon and Mr Kissinger in the White House on 5 November 1971, shortly after a meeting with the visiting Indira Gandhi. 


*MAY 26 1971 
Kissinger: They are the most aggressive goddamn people around there
Nixon: The Indians?
Kissinger: Yeah
Nixon: Sure 
"We really slobbered over the old witch," says President Nixon. *

*"The Indians are bastards anyway," says Mr Kissinger. "They are starting a war there." *

*He adds: "While she was a b****, we got what we wanted too. She will not be able to go home and say that the United States didn't give her a warm reception and therefore in despair she's got to go to war."* 

'Special relationship' 

The Indo-Pakistan war took place between November and December 1971. 






*The Pakistanis are straightforward and sometimes extremely stupid. The Indians are more devious, sometimes so smart that we fall for their line *

Richard Nixon 
It had its roots in demands in 1970 by East Pakistan, later Bangladesh, for independence. 

In March 1971, Pakistan's military acted to put down the secessionists there. Millions fled to India's West Bengal state. 

India supported an independent Bangladesh and ties with the US plummeted in August 1971 when Delhi signed a treaty with the Soviet Union that included mutual military assistance in case of war. 

President Nixon, on the other hand, had developed a "special relationship" with Pakistan's then military dictator, General Yahya Khan. 

In a White House conversation with Mr Kissinger on 4 June 1971, President Nixon berates his ambassador to India, Kenneth Keating, for wanting to, as Mr Kissinger puts it, "help India push the Pakistanis out". 

President Nixon says: "I don't want him to come in with that kind of jackass thing with me... Keating, like every ambassador who goes over there, goes over there and gets sucked in." 





Indira Gandhi sought stronger links with the Soviet Union 

*Mr Kissinger then says: "Those sons-of-bitches, who never have lifted a finger for us, why should we get involved in the morass of East Pakistan?* 

"If East Pakistan becomes independent, it is going to become a cesspool. It's going to be 100 million people, they have the lowest standard of living in Asia." 

President Nixon replies: "Yeah." 

Mr Kissinger: "They're going to become a ripe field for communist infiltration." 

President Nixon then openly courted China to try to turn the tide of the war Pakistan's way. 

With the Indian army and armed Bengali separatists winning, the US on 10 December 1971 urged Beijing to mobilise troops towards India, saying the US would back it if the Soviet Union became involved. 

China declined and on 16 December the war ended with the Indian army and Bengali separatists taking Dhaka. 

Exiled leaders had declared Bangladesh independent on 26 March 1971 and, in 1972, Sheikh Mujibur Rahman returned to become the country's first prime minister. 


BBC NEWS | South Asia | Nixon's dislike of 'witch' Indira


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## Omar1984

By the way, what do sikhs think of this indira witch. isn't the golden temple, sikh people's most sacred site???


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## Mummai_guy

Omar1984 said:


> By the way, what do sikhs think of this indira witch. isn't the golden temple, sikh people's most sacred site???



They were terrorists just like those terrorists inside Lal masjid. She had to take the action and she gave her life for the betterment of the nation. 

*Thanks to Indira, Sikh extremism is almost rooted out. *


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## Mummai_guy

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> that carrot-nosed witch got what she deserved



She was given the highest civilian honor of India for her service for the nation. After independence Indira was the only PM who was a true leader. 



> Indra is a b.tch=Nixon.



If nixon says that does it mean true?  nixon was one of the worst president and leader ever.


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## Nav

Avatar said:


> Indira Gandhi was strong and brave, not ruthless.



she might be the Iron Lady For Indians , but for Pakistan ,its " ghar ka bedi ( mukti bhni) lanka dhay "
and Russian role in sepretion of East Pakistan " pakistani's already fixed them in afg .


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## Bang Galore

Developereo said:


> Wasn't she behind some sort of mass sterilization campaign in India?



Actually her son Sanjay Gandhi was behind that campaign. He was pretty much the reason that Indira Gandhi did what she did, especially during the emergency. He was the real power behind the throne, something that a lot of people either do not know or have forgotten.

There is an interesting anecdote on what supposedly transpired after Mrs. Gandhi lost the elections in 1977. She called the army chief T.N Raina in for a discussion and when she was in the middle of the meeting, Sanjay Gandhi entered the room and is supposed to have said that there was no reason to hand over power & all that the situation required was for army troops to be stationed in different cities. Gen.Raina is believed to have completely ignored Sanjay Gandhi & speaking to the PM lavished praise on the Congess party for all that it had done for the country & told the PM that she would further be enhancing her prestige & that of her party by becoming the first congress leader to gracefully relinquish power to the newly elected government. Mrs.Gandhi submitted her resignation the same day.It was not surprising because when Mrs Gandhi had asked Gen.Raina for support before the imposition of emergency he had bluntly told the Prime Minister that the army would not be used to 'further her ends' but obey only those orders of a 'legally construed government.'

People forget that it was because of people like Gen.Raina & others that we have not fallen victim to the disease of dictatorship that befell our neighbours. People just assume that democracy survived by itself in India. We as a nation were very lucky to have dodged bullets that struck other countries in the region.

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## Bang Galore

Mummai_guy said:


> They were terrorists just like those terrorists inside Lal masjid. She had to take the action and she gave her life for the betterment of the nation.
> 
> *Thanks to Indira, Sikh extremism is almost rooted out. *



*She was the cause of Sikh extremism in the first place.* It was she who tried to cut the Akalis down to size by creating the monster Brindanwale. The monster, like our Pakistani friends know all too well ended up threatening its creator. While I would not blame her directly for Operation Blue Star(the fault there should lie with the army for the methods employed), she was responsible for putting the events that led to the situation occurring, into motion.

Btw, the government & the armed forces learnt the lessons from Operation Blue Star fairly quickly because when faced with similar situation in 1988, they adopted a much more cautious attitude & forced most of the militants to surrender. Operation Black Thunder was also when the NSG was first seen in operations and was probably one of the most successful anti-terrorist operation ever .

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## NWO

xyz said:


> and my KNOWLEDGE says that, *your begging in front of Americans* right now.
> *
> We lost airforce, army , navy, everything( your claims) but gained approx. 1700km&#178; of your territory*. Objective Accomplished. You lost much of the territory.
> 
> In 48, your diplomacy failed, in 65 the same thing, in 71 totaly failed in 1999 again failed.
> 
> *If you were so well sure about the victory why did you accept the Cease fire so quickly, where as in 71 your Bhutto tore the proposal???* Where as no single MILITARY Leader favored the cease fire on our side.
> 
> Coming to cold war Issue, yes you helped americans, but *you were not the only ones *who helped americans. You never had such Economy and such Home build Technology to help Americans(simple fact). *You are just used by the Americans, the Think Tank is the west, financer is that west and you broke USSR?? sounds funny!!*
> The abandoning of Communism in East Europe and Economic reforms by Gorbachev was the major reason of the fall of USSR. ((Go through *'Perestroika'*))
> 
> Soviet war in Afghan was to support the Democratic Republic of Afghanistan against your homemade Mujahideens(Taliban) FUNDED BY WEST and You played the role in building Taliban and now SUFFERING FROM THEM.
> VERY WELL DONE!!
> Idiots!!!


Yes, but we fought a enemy with larger or superior army/airforce/navy, five times larger landmass, and six times larger population multiple times. As well, we've faced problems/threats in six decades that other countries only face over several centuries, if they ever face them at all.

The fact that we're still here is enough and thriving for me to take pride.

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## RamGorur

Bang Galore said:


> Actually her son Sanjay Gandhi was behind that campaign.


Just to add to it, it was just a myth. There was really no active campaign and certainly no case of forced sterilization. It is rumoured to have been started by an anti-Indira Gandhi faction within Congress to embarrass her.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

As pointed out before, Indira Gandhi supported terrorists and mass murderers in East Pakistan in 1971, along with insurgents, all of whom were involved in destabilizing a nation and spreading chaos in it.

Indian support Indira Gandhi's policies against Pakistan in 1971 is blatant support for terrorism and terrorists, and is utterly hypocritical given Indian shrieking and whining about the insurgency in Kashmir.


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## barcelona

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> As pointed out before, Indira Gandhi supported terrorists and mass murderers in East Pakistan in 1971, along with insurgents, all of whom were involved in destabilizing a nation and spreading chaos in it.
> 
> Indian support Indira Gandhi's policies against Pakistan in 1971 is blatant support for terrorism and terrorists, and is utterly hypocritical given Indian shrieking and whining about the insurgency in Kashmir.



It was some 40 years ago n Pakistan is supporting its fair share of jehadis
Point is she did & was succssesful in her endevour in such a short time means she had groundswell support of east pakistan

I wanna knw keeping nationality aside if she would have been ur leader how would you have rated her if you still thought she was worse wat in your eyes would have been an ideal leader.................


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## Anonymous_Clown

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> As pointed out before, Indira Gandhi supported terrorists and mass murderers in East Pakistan in 1971, along with insurgents, all of whom were involved in destabilizing a nation and spreading chaos in it.
> 
> Indian support Indira Gandhi's policies against Pakistan in 1971 is blatant support for terrorism and terrorists, and is utterly hypocritical given Indian shrieking and whining about the insurgency in Kashmir.



AgNoStIc MuSliM:

You do agree that the Pakistani army committed horrible atrocities on the Bengalis in East Pakistan? Or do you also maintain, like some rabid Mullahs do, that India sent 60000 people in Pakistan army uniform into East Pakistan?!


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## Hulk

manava said:


> i seriously believe if we had one more leader like Indira Gandhi.. all our neighbors would have sat quietly...but we would have had to pay price for that with something as Pakistan now doing because of her mistake during soviet war.i would like to take example from china.. because whenever they had any objective they always took that to a logical end.. which we haven't been able to do because we lacked leaders with guts..
> i am not telling here that we had to occupy Pakistan.. that was never our objective.. but as this article points out .. we could have taken *** .. that would have sent right signals to them... now they consider we cannot do anything .. so they export terrorism even though whole world know about it but still we are targeted... we simply do nothing..this is where our leaders guts can be questioned... and Pakistan always had leader who had guts... means mainly military which holds Pakistan's foreign policy for most part of it's life.



Wrong it is not Indira but the Nuke that stops the war, if there was no Nuke. We would had a war maybe.

Also I do not think we have done a good job with armed force to stay conventionally way superiour than Pakistan. So result could not have been as you are predicting.

Note : - I am not a war monger and I will not like to have a war irrespective of Nukes or not. Just putting my point.


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## Patrician

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> As pointed out before, Indira *Gandhi supported terrorists and mass murderers in East Pakistan* in 1971, along with insurgents, *all of whom* were involved in destabilizing a nation and spreading chaos in it.
> 
> Indian support Indira Gandhi's policies against Pakistan in 1971 is blatant support for terrorism and terrorists, and is utterly hypocritical given Indian shrieking and whining about the insurgency in Kashmir.



AM care to quantify how many? 1 mil? 2 mil? 3 mil?

Cmon AM, you are sitting in US, you have access to all the media in the world. Please do not force Indians to enlighten you.

By the way call them terrorists/mukti bahini or what you will, the fact remains that your army did commit genocide which is well documented by international news agencies.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-history/20866-operation-searchlight-tape-transcript.html----Defence.pk archive

Operation Searchlight : The Background of 25th March Genocide x a n t h i s

Operation Searchlight

You know what AM, a major reason why no body in India and not many in the world regard your claim of supporting kashmir cause as justified because your army has itself the blood of millions of innocents on its hands.

Now please don't say that everyone who says that your army did massacre millions in east pakistan is wrong and only you are correct. It is well documented and you have internet at your leisure and if you still persist on your incorrect stand, then nobody can help it.

I respect you AM, please look at things in a rational way.


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## Hulk

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> *As pointed out before, Indira Gandhi supported terrorists and mass murderers in East Pakistan in 1971*, along with insurgents, all of whom were involved in destabilizing a nation and spreading chaos in it.
> 
> Indian support Indira Gandhi's policies against Pakistan in 1971 is blatant support for terrorism and terrorists, and is utterly hypocritical given Indian shrieking and whining about the insurgency in Kashmir.



Will you be kind enough to provide a single non Pakistani link that say's people who fought in 1971 were terrorist?


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## Omar1984

Markus said:


> This is for everyone to read and understand.




Anyone who met several Pakistanis and then met several indians already know that Pakistanis are straightforward and indians are cunning, devious, and malicious. Both Nixon and Kissinger knew that.

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## Markus

Omar1984 said:


> Anyone who met several Pakistanis and then met several indians already know that Pakistanis are straightforward and indians are cunning, *devious, and malicious*. Both Nixon and Kissinger knew that.



You added those two words from your side.


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## bandit

Omar1984 said:


> Anyone who met several Pakistanis and then met several indians already know that Pakistanis are straightforward and indians are cunning, devious, and malicious. Both Nixon and Kissinger knew that.



Nixon said this too...you believe him right?



> Indira Gandhi sought stronger links with the Soviet Union
> Mr Kissinger then says: "*Those sons-of-bitches, who never have lifted a finger for us, why should we get involved in the morass of East Pakistan? *
> "If East Pakistan becomes independent, it is going to become a cesspool. It's going to be 100 million people, they have the lowest standard of living in Asia."


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## Omar1984

bandit said:


> Nixon said this too...you believe him right?



When he said "son-of-bitches" he meant indians. read the article again.

*In a White House conversation with Mr Kissinger on 4 June 1971, President Nixon berates his ambassador to India, Kenneth Keating, for wanting to, as Mr Kissinger puts it, "help India push the Pakistanis out". 

President Nixon says: "I don't want him to come in with that kind of jackass thing with me... Keating, like every ambassador who goes over there, goes over there and gets sucked in." 

Mr Kissinger then says: "Those sons-of-bitches, who never have lifted a finger for us, why should we get involved in the morass of East Pakistan? 

"If East Pakistan becomes independent, it is going to become a cesspool. It's going to be 100 million people, they have the lowest standard of living in Asia." *


BBC NEWS | South Asia | Nixon's dislike of 'witch' Indira


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## bandit

Omar1984 said:


> *Mr Kissinger then says: "Those sons-of-bitches, who never have lifted a finger for us, why should we get involved in the morass of East Pakistan? *
> 
> BBC NEWS | South Asia | Nixon's dislike of 'witch' Indira



Who do you think was asking US to get involved in E. Pakistan???


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## Omar1984

bandit said:


> Who do you think was asking US to get involved in E. Pakistan???



Again, you refuse to read and understand the conversation between Nixon and Kissinger.


In a White House conversation with Mr Kissinger on 4 June 1971, President Nixon berates his *ambassador to India*, Kenneth Keating, for wanting to, as Mr Kissinger puts it, *"help India push the Pakistanis out". *


Why would Nixon abuse Pakistan when he never wanted independence and separation of East Pakistan?

LOL you indians arent as smart as what he thought. you cant even comprehend a simple article.

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## somebozo

qayyum-ali said:


> Hi Somebozo, I will say what you have said does not make any sense as you said implies that pakistan is not one of the 'small south Asian countries'. Infact it is also one of the same small countries like Sri Lanka, BD, Nepal, Bhutan & Tibet. Kashmir is not a country its a state,- please get a geography book or better yet get an education - its a state which is part of a much larger nation India.



Having a big country doesnt necessary means having a big sense..Yes Pakistan is that "small" country you would love to over step like Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Nepal etc etc but is it under indian influence?? NO...Does Pakistan has amputed armed and air forces like other neighbours of India?? NO.. Who is marketing China Inc to SriLanka, Bangladesh & Maldivies??? That was my logic.. Pakistan is a thorn in Indian foigen policy objectives. Until and unless Indians can show Pakistan as a proof of failure their ulterior moves of South Asia dominance will meet with resisitance. These things are understood if thought with a free mind not with an iron clad communist legacy big vs small mind.


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## Bang Galore

Omar1984 said:


> When he said "son-of-bitches" he meant indians. read the article again.





Omar1984 said:


> LOL you indians arent as smart as what he thought. you cant even comprehend a simple article.



Yawn ! That was 40 years ago.Nixon didn't exactly cover himself with glory. His problem was that he spoke too much. So much that he had to resign.

Ask any American or what the heck, since I am feeling very generous - ask anyone in Europe too if you want. Who are the guys taking ages to get through airport security? Who are the guys being marked for special treatment? They may not be calling anyone SoB's anymore what with all the political correctness , but anyone choosing to use their brains will figure who is being considered what.

Btw feel free to google what Kissinger says of India now. Sings a completely new song these days.

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## barcelona

Omar1984 said:


> Anyone who met several Pakistanis and then met several indians already know that Pakistanis are straightforward and indians are cunning, devious, and malicious. Both Nixon and Kissinger knew that.



American's also knew that Pakistan has every thing to give international community a migrane said by i think Madline albright who also knew the terror culture of Pakistan ..............................................................................................
on other hand sorry to post off topic comments


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## Kompromat

Plan seems nice on paper , she also had a plan to blow up Kahota Nuclear plant.
Its good that she was Eliminated by some strategically aware Intelligence agency.


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## SQ8

While I find the semi-trolls amusing.. Bhutto's tearing of that paper was actually quite detrimental.. a cease fire at that time would have actually stopped the invasion of east pakistan and allowed some time for better settlement.. If nothing else.. instead of surrendering those troops would simply have been recalled and Bangladesh given independence through official means.

However, any mass invasion of Pakistan in the west would have been extremely *difficult*.. considering there was a massed division under Tikka Khan ready to go in..and most likely a large swath of Indian territory would have been captured whilst the same cannot be said of Pakistan.. however.. the losses to Pakistani forces would have been much greater compared to India.. just for the offensive into India the PAF was prepared to lose about a 100 or so pilots ....and around 1/3rd of its hardware.
But those Indians dreaming of a walkover in west Pakistan back in 71.. really need to go smell the coffee.. it would have been very costly to India as well.. but.. if the Americans did not interfere.. it is quite possible that it could have been a reality.
Something Bhutto realized at Shimla.. and jump started the nuclear ambitions.. which were taken from paper to practice after smiling buddha.
But.. it would never have happened.. The Americans needed Pakistan.. and since the soviets were directly fighting with the Indians.. they would have eventually stepped in..
For those who aren't aware.. the attacks on Karachi's oil dumps were made by Soviet manned warships ..and not Indian OSA's.. there are very interesting recordings sitting in naval archives of radio chatter between ships firing away at Karachi in Russian..


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## somebozo

Its ironic that she had plans to rampage destruction all over Pakistan and instead of answering back with bombs we retaliated smartly by eliminating the icon of evil itself. Baring no secret that Sikh movement had offical ISI backing.


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## Prometheus

somebozo said:


> Its ironic that she had plans to rampage destruction all over Pakistan and instead of answering back with bombs we retaliated smartly by eliminating the icon of evil itself. Baring no secret that *Sikh movement had offical ISI backing*.



lol,,,,,,,,thats why it was a failure

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## SQ8

Prometheus said:


> lol,,,,,,,,thats why it was a failure



With Indra dead, a intelligence network set up inside India, Trombay and other sites mapped out.. thanks to that network..
Id hardly call it a failure.

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## somebozo

Well the Sikh managed to get their demands fulfilled by GoI which also included creating the Sikh state punjab and brining city of chandi garth under state government. So one cannot brand it as total failure. There is no such thing as 100&#37; sucess or failure in millitary and diplomacy however I did say Sikh achieved atleast 80% of their motives. The sikh rebellion was the same leader who trained Mukti Bahini few years ago. And ISI being able to recruit the godfather of its enemy forces against their own masters is a feat deserving much commendation.


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## Patrician

somebozo said:


> Well the Sikh managed to get their demands fulfilled by GoI which also included creating the Sikh state punjab and brining city of *chandi garth under state government*. So one cannot brand it as total failure. There is no such thing as 100% sucess or failure in millitary and diplomacy however I did say Sikh achieved atleast 80% of their motives. The sikh rebellion was the same leader who trained Mukti Bahini few years ago. And ISI being able to recruit the godfather of its enemy forces against their own masters is a feat deserving much commendation.



Chandigarh is a union territory under direct administration of the Govt. of the Union of India.

Please 'think' before you type. I hope that's not very difficult for you.


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## Bang Galore

somebozo said:


> Well the Sikh managed to get their demands fulfilled by GoI which also included creating the Sikh state punjab and brining city of chandi garth under state government. So one cannot brand it as total failure. There is no such thing as 100% sucess or failure in millitary and diplomacy however I did say Sikh achieved atleast 80% of their motives. The sikh rebellion was the same leader who trained Mukti Bahini few years ago. And ISI being able to recruit the godfather of its enemy forces against their own masters is a feat deserving much commendation.



Kindly stop posting rubbish. Your gibberish is difficult to read by itself without you trying to create nonsensical facts as its basis. There is not an iota of truth in your post. Pure, unadulterated bull !

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## somebozo

So isnt this creditied to Sikh uprising??



> Akali Dal's demands
> The Akali Dal led a series of peaceful mass demonstrations to present its grievances to the central government. The demands of the Akali Dal were based on the Anandpur Sahib Resolution,[36] which was adopted by the party in October 1973 to raise specific political, economic and social issues. The major motivation behind the resolution was the safeguarding of the Sikh identity by securing a state structure that was decentralised, with non-interference from the central government. The Resolution outlines seven objectives.[37]
> 
> 1.The transfer of the federally administered city of Chandigarh to Punjab.
> 2.The transfer of Punjabi speaking and contiguous areas to Punjab.
> 3.Decentralisation of states under the existing constitution, limiting the central government&#8217;s role.
> 4.The call for land reforms and industrialisation of Punjab, along with safeguarding the rights of the weaker sections of the population.
> 5.The enactment of an all-India gurdwara (Sikh house of worship) act.
> 6.Protection for minorities residing outside Punjab, but within India.
> 7.Revision of government&#8217;s recruitment quota restricting the number of Sikhs in armed forces.





> Punjabi Suba movement
> The Akal Takht played a vital role in organizing Sikhs to campaign for the Punjabi suba. During the course of the campaign, twelve thousand Sikhs were arrested for their peaceful demonstrations in 1955 and twenty-six thousand in 1960-61.[33] Finally, in September 1966, the Punjabi suba demand was accepted by the central government and Punjab was trifurcated under the Punjab State Reorganisation Bill. Areas in the south of Punjab that spoke a language that is a derivative of Braj formed a new state of Haryana and the Pahari- and Kangri-speaking districts north of Punjab were merged with Himachal Pradesh, while the remaining areas formed the new Punjabi speaking state, which retained the name of Punjab. As a result, the Sikhs became a majority in the newly created state with a population of a little over sixty percent.


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## Bang Galore

somebozo said:


> So isnt this creditied to Sikh uprising??



Yeah, we find it difficult to credit things that happened in the 50's, 60's & the 70's to the so called uprising in the 80's.


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## Prometheus

somebozo said:


> Well the Sikh managed to get their demands fulfilled by GoI which also included creating the Sikh state punjab and brining city of chandi garth under state government. So one cannot brand it as total failure. There is no such thing as 100&#37; sucess or failure in millitary and diplomacy however I did say Sikh achieved atleast 80% of their motives. The sikh rebellion was the same leader who trained Mukti Bahini few years ago. And ISI being able to recruit the godfather of its enemy forces against their own masters is a feat deserving much commendation.



hhhmmmmmmm .......lets see

When was new Punjab formed ???
1 Nov 1966
When was Indira Gandhi killed???
1984

oh boy...............I fall from my chair.

lets come to second thing.
Chandigarh..................Plz stop ..........I have laughed enough
Chandigarh is a UT.........not under state of Punjab.

Khalistani movement lacked one thing................SIKHS

Because sikhs dont like ISI

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## Prometheus

somebozo said:


> So isnt this creditied to Sikh uprising??



How is things occuring in 60's related to 80's???


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## Camdor

somebozo said:


> Well the Sikh managed to get their demands fulfilled by GoI which also included creating the Sikh state punjab and brining city of chandi garth under state government. So one cannot brand it as total failure. There is no such thing as 100&#37; sucess or failure in millitary and diplomacy however I did say Sikh achieved atleast 80% of their motives. The sikh rebellion was the same leader who trained Mukti Bahini few years ago. And ISI being able to recruit the godfather of its enemy forces against their own masters is a feat deserving much commendation.



Post Reported!

Reason: Punjab state was formed before 1984. Sikhs in India are our citizen. Chandigarh is a UNION TERRITORY .
Their Motiv is our Motive, State Government is governed by Central Government(in cases) Please do not try to spread wrong information. You can ban me for this, but according to the _Freedom of Information Ordinance 2002, October 2002, Pakistan, do not misinform. _


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## somebozo

> Do you want to be reminded that pakistan itself was amputated into 2 parts by you know who



And you know what we did with your allies who helped you in this and the leader who commited this via our CIA backed proxy of Khalistan movement. What is there to boast about east-pakistan invasion?? A completely undefended remote out back of Pakistan?? That too on the shoulders of third country??

Seriously what the was strategic goal or outcome of Bangladesh creation?? Comeon dont tell me you had soo much sympathy for rioting Bangladeshis.


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## Camdor

somebozo said:


> And you know what we did with your allies who helped you in this and the leader who commited this via our CIA backed proxy of Khalistan movement. What is there to boast about east-pakistan invasion?? A completely undefended remote out back of Pakistan?? That too on the shoulders of third country??
> 
> Seriously what the was strategic goal or outcome of Bangladesh creation?? Comeon dont tell me you had soo much sympathy for rioting Bangladeshis.



and what did you achieve?? except losing Bangladesh in 71 and 1700km&#178; in 65


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## third eye

somebozo said:


> And you know what we did with your allies who helped you in this and the leader who commited this via our CIA backed proxy of Khalistan movement. What is there to boast about east-pakistan invasion?? A completely undefended remote out back of Pakistan?? That too on the shoulders of third country??
> 
> *Seriously what the was strategic goal or outcome of Bangladesh creation??* Comeon dont tell me you had soo much sympathy for rioting Bangladeshis.



Being a military forum one would expect those present to appreciate the relevance of what was done back in 71.


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## Mummai_guy

Rajput Warrior said:


> Indians celebrating 6 September and no more evil godless ussr!!... amputated into LOT OF PARTS...



We can see except support USSR did nothing even stopped India to get into west Pakistan but USA even send a fleet to save Pakistan as well as weapons and support in UN.

USSR had broken down due to massive military and USA's efforts. Why are you taking pride of it??? Also USSR helped Pakistan by stopping India to go for all out war against west Pakistan from earlier defensive stand.


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## somebozo

Mummai_guy said:


> We can see except support USSR did nothing even stopped India to get into west Pakistan but USA even send a fleet to save Pakistan as well as weapons and support in UN.
> 
> USSR had broken down due to massive military and USA's efforts. Why are you taking pride of it??? Also USSR helped Pakistan by stopping India to go for all out war against west Pakistan from earlier defensive stand.



USSR enforced the naval blockade of Pakistan army between East and West hence they had to rely on PIA flights therefore couldnt transport suffient manpower and ammunition. The US naval fleet was dispated after the reports of USSR naval presence however obviously due to distances it arrived too late. 

In reality India Pakistan both were fools. India played into USSR hands with dream of expanding its terriotry and influence and americans delibretely let the east wing go for garnering Pakistani support for upcoming "Afghan Jihad".


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## Srinivas

Bombensturm said:


> Er...........1984,election emergency etc are certainly not examples of a _kind_ person.Lets agree she had her share of wrongdoings.
> 
> 
> Indira Gandhi was most impacted by the criticism of her father Nehru being very soft and naive,hence it in way tailored her character.She certainly outdid her father,
> 
> Also gave us a picture of the fact had Nehru been a realist what impact it would"ve had on India.(Hint:not necessarily positive)
> 
> I'm proud of her for her actions in 1971.
> Also aware of her share of blunders.
> 
> According to the book :The clash of fundamentalisms
> After the fall of Dhaka Indian generals planned for an invasion of West Pakistan with the so called agenda of "finish off the enemy".But luckily Indira Gandhi never approved so because she believed military should be firmly under civilian control and also there is a chance that we may lose what we"ve earned so far.



The War was won but the diplomacy after that had failed. India should have played its diplomatic card to get the pak occupied kashmir.


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## Camdor

somebozo said:


> USSR enforced the naval blockade of Pakistan army between East and West hence they had to rely on PIA flights therefore couldnt transport suffient manpower and ammunition. The US naval fleet was dispated after the reports of USSR naval presence however obviously due to distances it arrived too late.
> 
> In reality India Pakistan both were fools. India played into USSR hands with dream of expanding its terriotry and influence and americans delibretely let the east wing go for garnering Pakistani support for upcoming "Afghan Jihad".



and you played with Americans to capture kashmir. I do not have enuf info if USSR blocked your navy but your Karachi Port was totally destroyed by IN. And if USSR had blocked your Navy, then Americans has definitely blocked us during attack on Karachi.


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## Rajput Warrior

Camdor said:


> and you played with Americans to capture kashmir. I do not have enuf info if *USSR blocked your navy but your Karachi Port was totally destroyed by IN.* And if USSR had blocked your Navy, then Americans has definitely blocked us during attack on Karachi.



Dumbest comment ever by a FAN BOY.


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## FNFAL

the fact remains that indira gandhi was a very aggresive leader. From sending our man in space to laying the seeds of a nuclear capable india , she is and will remain as a charismatic leader to most people in india.

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## Patriot

qayyum-ali said:


> What? What did you do? let me guess...umm.... you went to them year after year with a begging bowl asking for monetary aid and survived on their aid and financial help and became one of the few nations who are pulling the continent of asia down while the rest of the nations are rising and making it the asian century?
> 
> -- Yah! I know!



Well your main ally was Soviet Union and guess what?It does not exist today.We paid them back in the same coin.Admittedly, we had plenty of help from Americans.14,453 Soviets. Killed in Afghanistan is pretty good goal.Indira Gandhi was a ***** and Pakistan took care of her.We eventually took her out.Let's face it Sikhs were backed by us heavily.If it was not for Pakistan's and US Support the Sikh Insurgency would have never taken up to the scale it did.

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## Kyusuibu Honbu

sukhoi_30MKI said:


> The War was won but the diplomacy after that had failed. India should have played its diplomatic card to get the pak occupied kashmir.



Post war diplomacy was success considering the fact we compelled Pakistan to recognize Bangladesh as an independent country,or else any attempts for legal recognition of BanglaDesh would"ve been put down by all UN security councils members except Soviet Union.

i.e We made Pakistan legally acknowledge loss of half its population,economy and a large part of its land .

Had Pakistan not recognized BanglaDesh as an independent country ,then BanglaDesh today would be like South Ossetia or Abkhazia.

Also we kept Kargil to ourselves.


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

Patriot said:


> Well your main ally was Soviet Union and guess what?It does not exist today.We paid them back in the same coin.Admittedly, we had plenty of help from Americans.14,453 Soviets. Killed in Afghanistan is pretty good goal


Funny! when it comes to formation of Taliban,Pakistanis always blame the Americans,but regarding the collapse of the Soviet Union you scramble to take the credit.

Anyways.Lets look at what your great 1980s Kabul adventure got you
1.)Your brotherly nation Afghanistan doesn't trust you.
2)Large refugee population.
3)proliferation of extremism in Pakistan,whose effects we see everyday on the news.

I won't argue further on it as in the end Pakistan was safe.



> .Indira Gandhi was a ***** and Pakistan took care of her.We eventually took her out.



Calling her names actually reflects your frustration on the fact she made Pakistan legally accept the loss of half your nation's population,economy and large swath of your territory.

and ultimately and most importantly the * loss of reason* for formation of Pakistan being, uniting the Muslims of the subcontinent.

i.e she robbed Pakistan of her identity.

Do you really believe the death of one single person can compensate/outweigh all this loss?




> Let's face it Sikhs were backed by us heavily.If it was not for Pakistan's and US Support the Sikh Insurgency would have never taken up to the scale it did.



The outcome at the end of the day matters,We don't have a new nation in the subcontinent calling itself Khalistan.(although i do support its formation.)

Also we Indians are thankful for Pakistan regarding Punjab extremism.

Afterall in the end it was tip-off from Pakistan helped in quelling the movement by giving us the names and location of the hiding extremist leaders.

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## somebozo

The communist allied Indra era India was faced with rapid economic detrioation. Her millitary assertiveness was to divert public attention and restore india pride as something. Too bad the pride went too far and crossed lines with superior pride. Eventually the conflict of pride ensued and the one with functional balls won.


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## Rajput Warrior

Bombensturm said:


> Funny! when it comes to formation of Taliban,Pakistanis always blame the Americans,but regarding the collapse of the Soviet Union you scramble to take the credit.



Its so funny and retarded when u claim we made taliban and CIA broke USSR coz of kashmir?

Its so damn funny when u always forget Pakistanis saying yes we created them but CIA supplied Finance,weapons and the so called JIHAD ideology!




> Anyways.Lets look at what your great 1980s Kabul adventure got you
> 1.)Your brotherly nation Afghanistan hates you.


Only after Taliban left... they dont like indians either... infact they consider u .................


> 2)proliferation of extremism into Pakistan,whose effects we see everyday on the news.



Actually thts coz of Pak joining USAs WOT...before tht we didnt have terrorism.





> Calling her names actually reflects your frustration on the fact she made Pakistan legally accept the loss of half your nation's population,economy and large swath of your territory.



Unlike the indians we accept it.. it was due to USSR, Bengali problem,civil war and indian proxy mukti bhani...

Also it was Nixon who called indra a .tch and indians d.. So please dont take offence of some member!
Wat happened to indra?She died a horrable death,indians blew Golden temple, Sikhs are again starting Khalistan again...USSR is no more and its women are working as ,... in all countries etc.



> and ultimately and most importantly the * loss of reason* for formation of Pakistan being, uniting the Muslims of the subcontinent.



Thts nothing more then a indian satisfying his ego kinda statement.


> i.e she robbed Pakistan of her identity


I laugh at ur arrogance... she died like wat Nixon called her...



> Do you really believe the death of one single person can compensate/outweigh all this loss?



Do u underestimate the khalistan movement?destruction of USSR? as revenge of 71?




> The outcome at the end of the day matters,We don't have a new nation in the subcontinent.



Dont worry soon we will maybe even 2. Khalistan(If u dont stop ur terrorism )
,Kashmir..



> Also we Indians are thankful for Pakistan regarding Punjab extremism.



Dont mention it.



> Afterall in the end it was tip-off from Pakistan helped in quelling the movement by giving us the names and location of the hiding extremist leaders.



Yup...
India?s terror warnings angers Sikhs in Canada | SouthAsianPost.com | Indo Canadian newspaper from Vancouver & Surrey BC for the Indian, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Tamil, Bangladesh.
A hint.


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## Anonymous_Clown

I find it thoroughly amusung that Pakistanis are saying here that they "took revenge against the USSR with USA's help"!

Ha Ha Ha.

The USA got back at the USSR with Pakistan's help. There, fixed that for you.

And Pakistani friends: please come to terms with the fact that Khalistan is no longer an issue. Kashmir still has problems, I admit, but I am hopeful that it will cease to be an issue in some years.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

somebozo said:


> = The sikh rebellion was the same leader who trained Mukti Bahini few years ago. And ISI being able to recruit the godfather of its enemy forces against their own masters is a feat deserving much commendation.



yup




> Aurora and other 'establishment Sikhs' formed the 'Committee of Concerned Punjabis.' Aurora opined that most Sikhs regarded Zail Singh's apparent endorsement of Operation Blue Star as a 'greater sacrilege than the earlier use of the shrine by heavily armed terrorists.' He described Bhindranwale as 'a limited man' and characterized Gandhi as 'vicious, cold, calculating' and guilty of 'building up Bhindranwale as a counterweight to the Akali Dal in the 1970s.'
> 
> 
> Hundreds of Sikhs protested, sometimes violently, at India's high commissions and consulates around the world, including New York, Washington, London, Vancouver, and Hong Kong.



The Sikh Times - News and Analysis - The New York Times on Operation Blue Star

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## Rajput Warrior

*Kashmir will cease to be an issue in few years...... *Hear this bs since 47!

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## Abu Zolfiqar

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> As pointed out before, Indira Gandhi supported terrorists and mass murderers in East Pakistan in 1971, along with insurgents, all of whom were involved in destabilizing a nation and spreading chaos in it.
> 
> Indian support Indira Gandhi's policies against Pakistan in 1971 is blatant support for terrorism and terrorists, and is utterly hypocritical given Indian shrieking and whining about the insurgency in Kashmir.



i'm not sure if i could have put it better myself


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## roach

Rajput Warrior said:


> *Kashmir will cease to be an issue in few years...... *Hear this bs since 47!



If you've noticed, this "proxy war" that Pakistan is fighting is hurting it more than anyone else.

The 'Thousand Cuts' are being made on the wrong side of the border, as the newspapers will tell you.

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## toppys

somebozo said:


> If India had another leader like Indra it would lead no where but self destruct and balkanized. Sooner or later it would grow weakers, sanctioned and every neighbouring state jumping in for a pie. Indra by herself had no balls..she borrowed them from Russians..with Russian gone it was saga of impotency once again. On the flip side what did India do to protect their all weather friends in Afghanistan??



indira had no balls. Yep she was woman...  Even without that she floored all the ones who are supposed to have that like nixon , kissinger and then pakistani president and bhutto...


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## GOD OF WAR

you broke USSR who itself got broke into 2 pieces by us??? Come on dude talk some sense. You helped americans in Afghanistan because you guys thought that Americans would help you recapturing Kashmir. You couldnt re capture Kashmir and your putting a nonsense statement that you broke USSR?? Your role is very limited. ISI only worked in Border areas. And after Russians left we supported the Karzai Government against your Talibani Rule and *see who won???*[/QUOTE]

Don't count Your chickens before they're hatched sonny! Your statement is too premature to be taken seriously. With the US realizing what a pathetic product India is, nothing but 'Marketing Hype' soon you will be doing what you do best... scurrying off to your own backyard


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## Abu Zolfiqar

i seem to hear roosters cluck-cluck-clucking away

certain nearby elements should do full SWOT analysis before further (mis)adventures in the 'hood' (aka the neighbourhood)


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## Spring Onion

manava said:


> *i seriously believe if we had one more leader like Indira Gandhi.. all our neighbors would have sat quietly..*.but we would have had to pay price for that with something as Pakistan now doing because of her mistake during soviet war.i would like to take example from china.. because whenever they had any objective they always took that to a logical end.. which we haven't been able to do because we lacked leaders with guts..
> i am not telling here that we had to occupy Pakistan.. that was never our objective.. but as this article points out .. we could have taken *** .. that would have sent right signals to them... now they consider we cannot do anything .. so they export terrorism even though whole world know about it but still we are targeted... we simply do nothing..this is where our leaders guts can be questioned... and Pakistan always had leader who had guts... means mainly military which holds Pakistan's foreign policy for most part of it's life.



*
Yeah you might not had 62 *


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## Uchiha Sasuke

I dont think a mass invasion of west pakistan in 1972 would have been successful. Situation here was completly different from east pakistan where 90000 surrounded troops had no other option than to give up or die and local population was against them as well. West pakistan's population back then was 70,000,000. With a generous supply of weapons and oil probably from china/US and iran it could have turned into a very hard fight for indian army. They might have ended up with only enough land to bury their dead in.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

The regular troops were 35000 rest were civis,razakars etc.


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## Uchiha Sasuke

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> The regular troops were 35000 rest were civis,razakars etc.



Yea i knew that but didnt want to go into details. Thanks anyway.


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## Gin ka Pakistan

*Two Women leaders of Sub Continent * 
Indira Gandhi == Who broke the neighbor to two pieces 
Benazir Bhutto == Who helped her friend Rajiv Gandhi to save Indian Punjab by giving Secretes of Sikh freedom moments to save the neighbor . 

Indian women break the neighbors and Pakistani help them to remain unite 

The old generation of Sikh hate BB and love Zia Ul Haq .


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## shekhar

Uchiha Sasuke said:


> I dont think a mass invasion of west pakistan in 1972 would have been successful. Situation here was completly different from east pakistan where 90000 surrounded troops had no other option than to give up or die and local population was against them as well. West pakistan's population back then was 70,000,000. With a generous supply of weapons and oil probably from china/US and iran it could have turned into a very hard fight for indian army. They might have ended up with only enough land to bury their dead in.



don't talk what could have happened please talk what happened in 71 was the worst humiliating defeat in history of war (no other country was divided permanently in to two separate countries) and what happened after war was that pakistan understood that its *impossible* for pakistan to defeat india in direct war so pakistan started proxy war in punjab in name of khalistan (which has been sorted out very well) and in kashmir on the name UN referendum nice tried in kashmir but my good friend let me remind you one fact total army of pakistan == indian army in kashmir.

bottom line the *"K"* will be missing from pakistan forever


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## Gin ka Pakistan

shekhar said:


> don't talk what could have happened please talk what happened in 71 was the worst humiliating defeat in history of war (no other country was divided permanently in to two separate countries) and what happened after war was that pakistan understood that its *impossible* for pakistan to defeat india in direct war so pakistan started proxy war in punjab in name of khalistan (which has been sorted out very well) and in kashmir on the name UN referendum nice tried in kashmir but my good friend let me remind you one fact total army of pakistan == indian army in kashmir.
> 
> bottom line the *"K"* will be missing from pakistan forever



First try to control your Kashmir before dreaming of the other


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## Jackdaws

Gin ka Pakistan said:


> First try to control your Kashmir before dreaming of the other



Thanks for calling it "yours". At last, one Pakistani saw the light.

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## Gin ka Pakistan

Jackdaws said:


> Thanks for calling it "yours". At last, one Pakistani saw the light.



Oh I missed the word occupied  and never the less I believe that Kashmir is for Kashmir&#8217;s both Nation should leave them alone so that They can be good neighbor's of China


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## Uchiha Sasuke

shekhar said:


> don't talk what could have happened please talk what happened in 71 was the worst humiliating defeat in history of war (no other country was divided permanently in to two separate countries) and what happened after war was that pakistan understood that its *impossible* for pakistan to defeat india in direct war so pakistan started proxy war in punjab in name of khalistan (which has been sorted out very well) and in kashmir on the name UN referendum nice tried in kashmir but my good friend let me remind you one fact total army of pakistan == indian army in kashmir.
> 
> bottom line the *"K"* will be missing from pakistan forever



Actually i thought given the title of the thread people here would be discussing the finer points of the possible scenarios that would arise had india attacked, considering this is a military forum. But now i am reminded by your post that some here are just to tell others how super they are and how weak others are. South asian way of satisfying egos i guess.


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## Jackdaws

Gin ka Pakistan said:


> Oh I missed the word occupied  and never the less I believe that Kashmir is for Kashmirs both Nation should leave them alone so that They can be good neighbor's of China



LOL - I know you missed it; I just couldn't resist though.


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## GOD OF WAR

One thing is for certain, in the 63 years, India's hegemonic foreign policy is so consistent and evident. Whether it was supporting the Tamil tigers to subjugate a smaller neighbor or plan a shameless assassination of the Nepals royal family to exercise Indian authority, its all there... Back in 47-48, it was Nehru who is on record to have sent Indian troops in an act of gross violation of UN agendas and in 71 it was his progeny having the same aspirations... TO SPLIT UP THE ONLY NATION IN THE REGION THAT HAS ENOUGH GUTTS TO LOOK INDIA IN THE EYES AND REFUSE TO BE AFRAID OF HER MIGHT!

And yet India denies of having any malicious intent towards Pakistan. The open letter of Z A Bhutto was a true mirror of India's ulterior intentions. Indhra acting to be the moral Indian tried to appease the Pakistanis by saying that the indian Nuclear programme is not hostile, which was incessantly used for a policy of intimidation until the Nuclear tests conducted in Pakistan gave india a final and conclusive shut up call. 

India or Indra may take pride in the fact that they split us up (at least in 30 years they have developed some moral fiber to accept and not repudiate their suruptious activities which led to the Dhaka debacle.) But the real point is that India is nothing but A BIG BULLY, who only capitalizes on its weaker neighbors and bends over backwards down in front of anybody remotely powerful. Pakistan was under sanctions in 71, other wise India would have not dared to play Hero of the Oppressed in Bangladesh. Here, it is noteworthy, that Mujeeb himself was groomed in accordance to pro-india political stance since his college days, and while we are discussing balls may I say that india should not use the nomenclature, after all what knowledge would a eunuch have of the male genital organs. Since India never had, nor will have enough courage to confront a REAL LION, she always used treacherous and immoral Chanakia ideology. It seems that resorting to unscrupulous means is the only method india knows, be it in a martial or diplomatic front. 

The Lions Of Asoka, the state symbol of this mighty nation reminds me of the lions of the Hollywood Film the Ghost and the Darkness whereby the two lions enjoyed preying on helpless citizens but ran away and hid (and ultimately sorted out) when they realized that the hunters have come to make trophies out of them! Thats whats going to happen to India!

All this and India STILL blatantly denies that it has nefarious plans for Pakistan! 

As far as balls are concerned, dont worry, well give you an opportunity to see a set of real functional BALLS soon enough


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## GOD OF WAR

INDRA IN THE WORDS OF KHUSHWANTH SINGH

There is nothing spectacular about her rule.

She was incapable of tolerating any criticism and she picked up an aversion to some persons because she thought they were challenging her, among them Jayaprakash Narayan, a good, honest man. She couldnt stand him because he was a challenge to her as the leader of the country, especially as people grew disillusioned with her rule. There were problems, droughts, challenges and Jayaprakash Narayan had emerged as a leader.

During her reign, corruption increased to enormous levels. She was really very tolerant of corruption, which was another negative mark against her. She knew perfectly well that some of her ministers were extremely corrupt, yet she took no steps against them till it suited her.

Also, she felt uncomfortable with educated, sophisticated people. So you have the rise of people like Yashpal Kapoor, R K Dhawan, who was a stenographer who worked in her office, Mohammad Yunus, who just hung around her.

I believe this was because she had no real education, as also pointed out by her Pakistani counter part and ex fellow scholar in a UK ivy leage university. 

She went to Shanti Niketan, then she went to Badminton School abroad, then to Oxford. Nowhere did she pass an exam or acquire a degree.

I think that bred a sort of inferiority complex of not being recognised as an educated person. She would pretend to have read a lot of books. She spoke French, which she picked up when she accompanied her ailing mother Kamala to Switzerland, which went in her favour. 

How did her insecurities, about which much has been written, affect India?

In her insecurity, she destroyed the institutions of democracy. She packed Parliament with her supporters with loyalty being more important than ability; she superseded judges; she corrupted the civil service. Favouritism became a great sport with her.


In the long run it was not good for the country to play such games as she did.
*
And had it not been to the constant pocket money provided to India by the then communist Bear, India would have surely suffured the same fate as west and east Pakistan*


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## Jackdaws

GOD OF WAR said:


> One thing is for certain, in the 63 years, India's hegemonic foreign policy is so consistent and evident. Whether it was supporting the Tamil tigers to subjugate a smaller neighbor or plan a shameless assassination of the Nepals royal family to exercise Indian authority, its all there... Back in 47-48, it was Nehru who is on record to have sent Indian troops in an act of gross violation of UN agendas and in 71 it was his progeny having the same aspirations... TO SPLIT UP THE ONLY NATION IN THE REGION THAT HAS ENOUGH GUTTS TO LOOK INDIA IN THE EYES AND REFUSE TO BE AFRAID OF HER MIGHT!
> 
> And yet India denies of having any malicious intent towards Pakistan. The open letter of Z A Bhutto was a true mirror of India's ulterior intentions. Indhra acting to be the moral Indian tried to appease the Pakistanis by saying that the indian Nuclear programme is not hostile, which was incessantly used for a policy of intimidation until the Nuclear tests conducted in Pakistan gave india a final and conclusive shut up call.
> 
> India or Indra may take pride in the fact that they split us up (at least in 30 years they have developed some moral fiber to accept and not repudiate their suruptious activities which led to the Dhaka debacle.) But the real point is that India is nothing but A BIG BULLY, who only capitalizes on its weaker neighbors and bends over backwards down in front of anybody remotely powerful. Pakistan was under sanctions in 71, other wise India would have not dared to play Hero of the Oppressed in Bangladesh. Here, it is noteworthy, that Mujeeb himself was groomed in accordance to pro-india political stance since his college days, and while we are discussing balls may I say that india should not use the nomenclature, after all what knowledge would a eunuch have of the male genital organs. Since India never had, nor will have enough courage to confront a REAL LION, she always used treacherous and immoral Chanakia ideology. It seems that resorting to unscrupulous means is the only method india knows, be it in a martial or diplomatic front.
> 
> The Lions Of Asoka, the state symbol of this mighty nation reminds me of the lions of the Hollywood Film the Ghost and the Darkness whereby the two lions enjoyed preying on helpless citizens but ran away and hid (and ultimately sorted out) when they realized that the hunters have come to make trophies out of them! Thats whats going to happen to India!
> 
> All this and India STILL blatantly denies that it has nefarious plans for Pakistan!
> 
> As far as balls are concerned, dont worry, well give you an opportunity to see a set of real functional BALLS soon enough



We did see those in Dhaka when 91,000 of your troops surrendered without putting up a fight. We saw them in Kargil when Nawaz Sharif ran to Clinton to bail him out and Clinton even refused to see him in the White House. We also saw in that spectacular dud called Operation Grand Slam in 1965 when Pakistan set out to conquer Kashmir and ended up defending Lahore. 

As far as insulting our national emblem - The Lions of Sarnath - which is deeply connected to our ethos and our religious roots is concerned, your comments say a lot more about you than they do about us.

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## GOD OF WAR

^^^^^^ 

dont talk of belittling religiuos ethos, it doesnt suit a nation involved in mass govt sponsored genocide, and it so intollerent towars its own lower class leave alone other religious ideologies! stop ur rambling!


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## Anonymous_Clown

GOD OF WAR said:


> ^^^^^^
> 
> dont talk of belittling religiuos ethos, it doesnt suit a nation involved in mass govt sponsored genocide, and it so intollerent towars its own lower class leave alone other religious ideologies! stop ur rambling!



All I have to say to people like you is: put up pr shut up. 

Attack India, make 'trophies out of the metaphorical lions' if you can. What's stopping you? I'll tell you what - your own regime's understanding of the fact that you will be pulverized and put back by 20 years if you try such stunts.

All you can do is to try to fire off China's back but trust me - if you try actual adventurism, China is not going to sacrifice its economic development and progress for your useless warmongering - they will stay well away. 

Understand that, and embed it into your psyche. Constantly "threatening" a vastly more powerful and superior force will only earn you ridicule.


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## Jackdaws

GOD OF WAR said:


> ^^^^^^
> 
> dont talk of belittling religiuos ethos, it doesnt suit a nation involved in mass govt sponsored genocide, and it so intollerent towars its own lower class leave alone other religious ideologies! stop ur rambling!



Speaking of rambling, are you referring to the genocide of East Pakistanis? You have your history and your geography mixed up.


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## fast and furious

GOD OF WAR said:


> One thing is for certain, in the 63 years, India's hegemonic foreign policy is so consistent and evident. Whether it was supporting the Tamil tigers to subjugate a smaller neighbor or plan a shameless assassination of the Nepals royal family to exercise Indian authority, its all there... Back in 47-48, it was Nehru who is on record to have sent Indian troops in an act of gross violation of UN agendas and in 71 it was his progeny having the same aspirations... TO SPLIT UP THE ONLY NATION IN THE REGION THAT HAS ENOUGH GUTTS TO LOOK INDIA IN THE EYES AND REFUSE TO BE AFRAID OF HER MIGHT!
> 
> And yet India denies of having any malicious intent towards Pakistan. The open letter of Z A Bhutto was a true mirror of India's ulterior intentions. Indhra acting to be the moral Indian tried to appease the Pakistanis by saying that the indian Nuclear programme is not hostile, which was incessantly used for a policy of intimidation until the Nuclear tests conducted in Pakistan gave india a final and conclusive shut up call.
> 
> India or Indra may take pride in the fact that they split us up (at least in 30 years they have developed some moral fiber to accept and not repudiate their suruptious activities which led to the Dhaka debacle.) But the real point is that India is nothing but A BIG BULLY, who only capitalizes on its weaker neighbors and bends over backwards down in front of anybody remotely powerful. Pakistan was under sanctions in 71, other wise India would have not dared to play Hero of the Oppressed in Bangladesh. Here, it is noteworthy, that Mujeeb himself was groomed in accordance to pro-india political stance since his college days, and while we are discussing balls may I say that india should not use the nomenclature, after all what knowledge would a eunuch have of the male genital organs. Since India never had, nor will have enough courage to confront a REAL LION, she always used treacherous and immoral Chanakia ideology. It seems that resorting to unscrupulous means is the only method india knows, be it in a martial or diplomatic front.
> 
> The Lions Of Asoka, the state symbol of this mighty nation reminds me of the lions of the Hollywood Film the Ghost and the Darkness whereby the two lions enjoyed preying on helpless citizens but ran away and hid (and ultimately sorted out) when they realized that the hunters have come to make trophies out of them! Thats whats going to happen to India!
> 
> All this and India STILL blatantly denies that it has nefarious plans for Pakistan!
> 
> As far as balls are concerned, dont worry, well give you an opportunity to see a set of real functional BALLS soon enough




Easy Bro.Watch some Simpsons or go watch a movie.

That was past.Intentions on your side towards India have not been great either.Its just that only we did the execution part.We have moved on since 1971 cos that generation is no more commanding the thought process or direction of India.

Life is good.


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## GOD OF WAR

Anonymous_Clown said:


> All I have to say to people like you is: put up pr shut up.
> 
> Attack India, make 'trophies out of the metaphorical lions' if you can. What's stopping you? I'll tell you what - your own regime's understanding of the fact that you will be pulverized and put back by 20 years if you try such stunts.
> 
> All you can do is to try to fire off China's back but trust me - if you try actual adventurism, China is not going to sacrifice its economic development and progress for your useless warmongering - they will stay well away.
> 
> Understand that, and embed it into your psyche. Constantly "threatening" a vastly more powerful and superior force will only earn you ridicule.



Man... am i supposed to be scared? stupidified? shuld i bow down to u? please dont send ur BLACK(*****)CATS after me!! and dont fire your Akash or Agni (duds) at my country. I beg of youuuuuu  

When did i say that we're coming to sort u out?? the last time i checked it was some guy called KAPOOR(AA) who was taking big on how he can take Pakistan and China simultaneously... thats exactky my point, u guys should stop playing thaneydaar of the region. yes, if push comes to shove then we wont exactly wait for an invitation card to become THE LION HUNTER !


Man... history 302, dont take too much pride in your (so-called)might and superiority! and if u need to be further convinced, call 9251-111-111-DAVID. boast them of your superiority, dont forget to mention you name, Goliath!


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## hecj

GOD OF WAR said:


> Man... am i supposed to be scared? stupidified? shuld i bow down to u? please dont send ur BLACK(*****)CATS after me!! and dont fire your Akash or Agni (duds) at my country. I beg of youuuuuu
> 
> When did i say that we're coming to sort u out?? the last time i checked it was some guy called KAPOOR(AA) who was taking big on how he can take Pakistan and China simultaneously... thats exactky my point, u guys should stop playing thaneydaar of the region. yes, if push comes to shove then we wont exactly wait for an invitation card to become THE LION HUNTER !
> 
> 
> Man... history 302, dont take too much pride in your (so-called)might and superiority! and if u need to be further convinced, call 9251-111-111-DAVID. boast them of your superiority, dont forget to mention you name, Goliath!


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## GOD OF WAR

fast and furious said:


> Easy Bro.Watch some Simpsons or go watch a movie.
> 
> That was past.Intentions on your side towards India have not been great either.Its just that only we did the execution part.We have moved on since 1971 cos that generation is no more commanding the thought process or direction of India.
> 
> Life is good.



And why dont you go and watch THE GHOST AND THE DARKNESS
that ought to give u a vivid picture of your own mentality and the reprisals attached to it.

Life is good? let me get the opinion of the muslims of srinagar about this 

We know quite well what you guys are about


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## fast and furious

GOD OF WAR said:


> And why dont you go and watch THE GHOST AND THE DARKNESS
> that ought to give u a vivid picture of your own mentality and the reprisals attached to it.
> 
> Life is good? let me get the opinion of the muslims of srinagar about this
> 
> We know quite well what you guys are about



My fault.

Take care.

P.S. If I were you I will worry more about the Muslims in Pakistan.


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## Anonymous_Clown

GOD OF WAR said:


> Man... am i supposed to be scared? stupidified? shuld i bow down to u? please dont send ur BLACK(*****)CATS after me!! and dont fire your Akash or Agni (duds) at my country. I beg of youuuuuu
> 
> When did i say that we're coming to sort u out?? the last time i checked it was some guy called KAPOOR(AA) who was taking big on how he can take Pakistan and China simultaneously... thats exactky my point, u guys should stop playing thaneydaar of the region. yes, if push comes to shove then we wont exactly wait for an invitation card to become THE LION HUNTER !
> 
> 
> Man... history 302, dont take too much pride in your (so-called)might and superiority! and if u need to be further convinced, call 9251-111-111-DAVID. boast them of your superiority, dont forget to mention you name, Goliath!



Since you seem to be so interested in trolling, here's something for you on the same note:

history 302: if you don't want your country dismembered again, let sanity prevail.

David vs. Goliath, huh? Well, don't expect miracles to happen here in the 21st century. Keep your lion hunting fantasies to yourself.

It would do you a world of good to worry less about the Srinagar Muslims and more about the Pakistani Muslims. Last I heard, hundreds of Pakistani Muslims were dying every month from a myraid variety of non-natural causes. Life certainly seems much better for a Srinagar Muslim as of today, isn't it?


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## somebozo

> It would do you a world of good to worry less about the Srinagar Muslims and more about the Pakistani Muslims. Last I heard, hundreds of Pakistani Muslims were dying every month from a myraid variety of non-natural causes. Life certainly seems much better for a Srinagar Muslim as of today, isn't it?



Its called cross border terrorism a disease infecting us rampantly since 1971 and the virus was engineered in India with soviet help.


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## hecj

somebozo said:


> Its called cross border terrorism a disease infecting us rampantly since 1971 and the virus was engineered in India with soviet help.



look at the videos of your own generals who clearly tells u who engineered wat?/.i give u clue hamid gul and musharraf.who clearly say we had intentions to bleed india.and u r getting ur tablet.


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## mikey

somebozo said:


> Its called cross border terrorism a disease infecting us rampantly since 1971 and the virus was engineered in India with soviet help.



again a crap!!! you must thanks soviets to stop indira gandhi for ultimate execution


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## somebozo

mikey said:


> again a crap!!! you must thanks soviets to stop indira gandhi for ultimate execution



it was american which stopped that ugly witch and her hairy boyfriend (bear). Not the other way around.

And please confess your true identity..many indians here are playing spy master these days with multiple identities.



hecj said:


> look at the videos of your own generals who clearly tells u who engineered wat?/.i give u clue hamid gul and musharraf.who clearly say we had intentions to bleed india.and u r getting ur tablet.



Hamid Gul is just a publicity hungry clown. One example would be Hamid Gul on daily talk shows claiming credit of afghan war when the actual master mind behind the whole plan was General Akhtar Abdur Rahman.

If one has not deciphered the real face of pakistani politics and intelliegence, we always keep a sacrifical goat as public figure to safeguard real master minds..for example

Hamid Gul covered General Akhtar Abdur Rahman
AQ Khan covered Dr. Samar Mubarakmand
Zardari is covering the millitary strong man Gen. Kayani

and many more we have in history!


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## mikey

somebozo said:


> it was american which stopped that ugly witch and her hairy boyfriend (bear). Not the other way around.
> 
> And please confess your true identity..many indians here are playing spy master these days with multiple identities.
> 
> 
> 
> Hamid Gul is just a publicity hungry clown. One example would be Hamid Gul on daily talk shows claiming credit of afghan war when the actual master mind behind the whole plan was General Akhtar Abdur Rahman.
> 
> If one has not deciphered the real face of pakistani politics and intelliegence, we always keep a sacrifical goat as public figure to safeguard real master minds..for example
> 
> Hamid Gul covered General Akhtar Abdur Rahman
> AQ Khan covered Dr. Samar Mubarakmand
> Zardari is covering the millitary strong man Gen. Kayani
> 
> and many more we have in history!



i got 2 words for you - POST REPORTED

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## A.Muqeet khan

il second you then we have no right to crap with other ppl ionic figures


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## Anonymous_Clown

somebozo said:


> Its called cross border terrorism a disease infecting us rampantly since 1971 and the virus was engineered in India with soviet help.



Nope. You artificially created the virus in a laboratory, and failed to wear the requisite protective clothing and disinfectant while handling it. 

You propped up raibid Mullahs and terrorists, drooling with delight at the mayhem they were causing in Kashmir, Punjab (and occasionally other Indian cities) in the 1980s/1990s. You allowed all kinds of backward ideologies to take firm root in your country. For you guys, it must have been a lot of fun in those days, isn't it? I mean, you must have thought, this is the end of India, how can they control all these movements which have lethal weaponry in their hands, provided by Pakistan?

Now, here we are. Punjab terrorism is stamped out, people completely integrated with India. Kashmir terrorism stamped out, people will be integrated soon, a time-consuming process. So few terror attacks and explosions in Indian cities.

How do you like it now, that the rabid ideology that you guys created is eating you from within? And all you can come up with is Soviet-India nonsense? Typical, though - externalization of the problem. "It's all a conspiracy, they picked on us Pakistanis, they are doing all this to us still...." 

Please grow up, introspect, and face facts.

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## Uchiha Sasuke

This thread is doomed to be useless.


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## GOD OF WAR

Anonymous_Clown said:


> Since you seem to be so interested in trolling, here's something for you on the same note:
> 
> history 302: if you don't want your country dismembered again, let sanity prevail.
> 
> David vs. Goliath, huh? Well, don't expect miracles to happen here in the 21st century. Keep your lion hunting fantasies to yourself.
> 
> It would do you a world of good to worry less about the Srinagar Muslims and more about the Pakistani Muslims. Last I heard, hundreds of Pakistani Muslims were dying every month from a myraid variety of non-natural causes. Life certainly seems much better for a Srinagar Muslim as of today, isn't it?



Yea... as if the poverty in India has been totally alleviated. thousand incinerate themselves due to deplorable socio-economic situations in India, dont mix politics and sociology together, apples and oranges.

as far as miracles are concerned they happen everyday, you just need to emancipate your vision. case in point, so many imbeciles present in india, its a miracle!!! 

yea, what can we do, we Pakistanis have a habit of hunting 'Lions' but in 48-65-71-99, aaall the lions we killed were in actuality hyenas. u guys shuold consider changing ur state symbol, serioslly!


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## aks18

well i was imagining if endia captures pakistan how they gona manage our pathans  as we have seen in afghanistan americans are fed up of these pathan talibans now they are trying to run from afghanistan  endia will never go for suicide mission of pakistan's invasion


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## maverick1977

she was the ugliest woman i ever saw... if she wouldve been pretty then her attitude wouldve been totally different. she wouldve won hearts through her beauty and solved problems with handshakes not with a gun. her tomboyish attitude led her to show all the men in this world that she is the biggest biatche out there who should be taken seriously. She trained terrorist like mukhti bahni and got killed by the so called terrorist too.. pay back is a biatche and she got what she deserved by imposing wars and causing loss to thousands of people. i hope and pray that she rots in hell for ever....

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## HAIDER

Well, Indra Gandhi adopt the policy of confrontation inside and outside the country. But confronting the outside made her hero and confronting sikh made her zero. She left the spark of freedom in Punjab and different part of India. Killling a sikh leader in the bread basket of India, a big mistake,this freedom movement went underground but not finished. Indra had many choices to resolve the sikh movement,but used the national army to kill a clan of freedom lovers...

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## rafay321

I have no doubt that woman planned all this. She had a very aggressive nature. 

Atleast it confirms that India is our biggest existential threat till it exists itself and the race for nuclear bomb only started after 1971 to completely eliminate this Indian desire of Total annihilation of Pakistan. 

Still some Indians say we have changed and we don't care about Pakistan and blah. 

*now we have what it takes to take India with us if we ever went off the map. They can't even fulfill their lame desire of bombing some targets inside Pakistan. Total annihilation is a dream far fetched now.

Mod Edit: Profanities and insults removed.*

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## Perceptron

maverick1977 said:


> she was the ugliest woman i ever saw... if she wouldve been pretty then her attitude wouldve been totally different. she wouldve won hearts through her beauty and solved problems with handshakes not with a gun. her tomboyish attitude led her to show all the men in this world that she is the biggest biatche out there who should be taken seriously. She trained terrorist like mukhti bahni and got killed by the so called terrorist too.. pay back is a biatche and she got what she deserved by imposing wars and causing loss to thousands of people. i hope and pray that she rots in hell for ever....


That is correct ; Her place in hell will be alongside Benazir Bhutto who with her beauty and grace charmed her assassins in blowing her up. Now for some dose of reality.

Indira Gandhi was a born leader who put even Pakistani men to shame ; Zulfikar Ali Bhutto was quite afraid of meeting her in the Shimla Conference fearing that she would force him to accept terms unconditionally and he would lose face in Pakistan. And while Zulfikar Bhutto cringed and whined to the gallows when he was about to be hanged, Indira knew that she would sign her own Death Warrant when she initiated Operation Blue Star, but to restore faith in Democracy she proceeded nonetheless in the face of sure Death.

I would take an "Ugly" Indira over the Bhutto "biatche" anyday.

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## Avatar

rafay321 said:


> **** off *now we have what it takes to take India with us if we ever went off the map. They can't even fulfill their lame desire of bombing some targets inside Pakistan. Total annihilation is a dream far fetched now.*



This is the fourth time I've heard such a statement. Your people have always lived in delusions. When you go off the map, you wont have time to pack up...let alone take India with you. Your nuclear programmed had well started before India. You've been fed so much lies that it has now become your staple food. The very fact that you're considering that you can go off the map shows how insecure you are. 

PS: We dont need to bomb targets inside Pakistan. We dont wanna disturb Uncle Sam.

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## maverick1977

Perceptron said:


> That is correct ; Her place in hell will be alongside Benazir Bhutto who with her beauty and grace charmed her assassins in blowing her up. Now for some dose of reality.
> 
> Indira Gandhi was a born leader who put even Pakistani men to shame ; Zulfikar Ali Bhutto was quite afraid of meeting her in the Shimla Conference fearing that she would force him to accept terms unconditionally and he would lose face in Pakistan. And while Zulfikar Bhutto cringed and whined to the gallows when he was about to be hanged, Indira knew that she would sign her own Death Warrant when she initiated Operation Blue Star, but to restore faith in Democracy she proceeded nonetheless in the face of sure Death.
> 
> I would take an "Ugly" Indira over the Bhutto "biatche" anyday.





Trust me, Benazir was far more selfish than Indra Gandhi.. i despise both Benzair and indra... Indra for killing people for her ego and benazir for killing people by hoarding money... one killed through war and one killed through corruption.. i hope both pay their time and share a shanty house together in next life...


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## rafay321

Avatar said:


> This is the fourth time I've heard such a statement. Your people have always lived in delusions. *When you go off the map, you wont have time to pack up...let alone take India with you*. Your nuclear programmed had well started before India. You've been fed so much lies that it has now become your staple food. The very fact that you're considering that you can go off the map shows how insecure you are.
> 
> PS: We dont need to bomb targets inside Pakistan. We dont wanna disturb Uncle Sam.



You belong to a nation that denies naked truth in broad day light without any sign of shame. Then you tell us WE ARE FED with so many lies like you guys are the most informed people on earth. Sorry but it is so true for you Indians and it makes you a laughing stock at least on PDF.

The bold part is the funniest of your funny post. 

P.S Considering and reacting to threats does not make one insecure. If that is your theory then India is probably the most insecure nation because it is thinking about a 2 front war scenario like idiots.


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## Avatar

rafay321 said:


> You belong to a nation that denies naked truth in broad day light without any sign of shame. Then you tell us WE ARE FED with so many lies like you guys are the most informed people on earth. Sorry but it is so true for you Indians and it makes you a laughing stock at least on PDF.
> 
> The bold part is the funniest of your funny post.
> 
> P.S Considering and reacting to threats does not make one insecure. If that is your theory then India is probably the most insecure nation because it is thinking about a 2 front war scenario like idiots.



What naked truth are we denying ? No Indian here has ever denied facts like poverty, illiteracy, hunger, etc. We know we have problems and we're dealing with them. 

Who is the laughing stock on PDF is debatable, and even so I couldn't care less. 

How you even think of nuking a country like India just because you're insecure about yourself makes me feel sorry for you. 

Everytime an act of terrorism is blamed on Pakistan, the whole nation openly denies everything and then one fine day a leader/official confesses to the same act they had been lying about all this time, and then the whole nation agrees to it and says "We knew this all along". Nobody else has stooped so low, I'm sorry.

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## rafay321

Avatar said:


> What naked truth are we denying ? No Indian here has ever denied facts like poverty, illiteracy, hunger, etc. We know we have problems and we're dealing with them.
> 
> Who is the laughing stock on PDF is debatable, and even so I couldn't care less.
> 
> How you even think of nuking a country like India just because you're insecure about yourself makes me feel sorry for you.
> 
> Every time an act of terrorism is blamed on Pakistan, the whole nation openly denies everything and then one fine day a leader/official confesses to the same act they had been lying about all this time, and then the whole nation agrees to it and says "We knew this all along". Nobody else has stooped so low, I'm sorry.



I don't deny the fact that we trained people to fight against Indian army in IOK. We are still doing it i hope. If India can do it across international border we can sure do it across LOC in a disputed territory. Neither do i deny the fact that we adventured in 1965 or we have a corrupt government or we are living on aid thanks to our ball-less leaders. 

Threatening India with nukes is our deterrent unless India would run over us. Stop being naive. You know it works every time and its logical. 

Terrorism is your own creation by occupying Kashmir you gave them a reason to fight and kill. Then you send 700,000 army to crush the resistance. It is that simple. India is not a saint. The human rights abuse in Kashmir is insane and there is a reason why India was not able to convince Kashmirs.


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## sasuke

self delete


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## Omar1984

Perceptron said:


> That is correct ; Her place in hell will be alongside Benazir Bhutto who with her beauty and grace charmed her assassins in blowing her up. Now for some dose of reality.
> 
> Indira Gandhi was a born leader who put even Pakistani men to shame ; Zulfikar Ali Bhutto was quite afraid of meeting her in the Shimla Conference fearing that she would force him to accept terms unconditionally and he would lose face in Pakistan. And while Zulfikar Bhutto cringed and whined to the gallows when he was about to be hanged, Indira knew that she would sign her own Death Warrant when she initiated Operation Blue Star, but to restore faith in Democracy she proceeded nonetheless in the face of sure Death.
> 
> I would take an "Ugly" Indira over the Bhutto "biatche" anyday.




Why do bharatis hate Benazir Bhutto when she is the one who decided that Pakistan should stop supporting the Khalistan movement. Unlike your indira, Benazir Bhuto never wanted to break the arch rival neighbouring country.

Anyways Benazir Bhutto was very young when she joined politics, your indira was an old witch as Nixon once said.








Here is a picture of Benazir Bhutto with her father, who is shaking hands with your indira.







If she was walking in the streets of America on halloween, people would think she is a witch:















BBC NEWS | South Asia | Nixon's dislike of 'witch' Indira

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## roach

Omar1984 said:


> Anyways Benazir Bhutto was very young when she joined politics, your indira was an old witch as Nixon once said.
> 
> If she was walking in the streets of America on halloween, people would think she is a witch



Very uncool coming from a senior member like you.

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## bandit

Seems like the old Witch still curdles the heart of some Pakistanis here. Seriously guys, she is dead; stop having nightmares about her. 

Nixon could't even stand up to her to support Pakistan, he had his fleet turned away mid-way by her.

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## Markus

That old witch still frightens the hell out of many a souls out there. 

I really wish if Sonia Gandhi OR Priyanka Gandhi could become another Indira Gandhi.

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## rafay321

^^ You will be doomed. May be that will fulfill your anti pak desire but she killed her own people so yeh


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## Areesh

Markus said:


> That old witch still frightens the hell out of may a souls out there.
> 
> *I really wish if Sonia Gandhi OR Priyanka Gandhi could become another Indira Gandhi.*



I also wish they could become another Indira.


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## Markus

rafay321 said:


> ^^ You will be doomed. May be that will fulfill your anti pak desire but she killed her own people so yeh



lolz....the very mention of Indira Gandhi has many ppl sweating here.

Yes, even after whatever she did inside India, I still want Sonia or Priyanka to become the next Indira !

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## Rajkumar

dont sleep pakistanis because she is on the hunt in dreams.

Nightmare at karachi street

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## Areesh

Rajkumar said:


> dont sleep pakistanis because she is on the hunt in dreams.
> 
> *Nightmare at karachi street*



What nightmare??? Lolzzz.


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## Peshwa

maverick1977 said:


> she was the ugliest woman i ever saw... *if she wouldve been pretty then her attitude wouldve been totally different. she wouldve won hearts through her beauty and solved problems with handshakes not with a gun. her tomboyish attitude led her to show all the men in this world that she is the biggest biatche out there who should be taken seriously.* She trained terrorist like mukhti bahni and got killed by the so called terrorist too.. pay back is a biatche and she got what she deserved by imposing wars and causing loss to thousands of people. i hope and pray that she rots in hell for ever....



Sarah Palin anyone?

Looking at the state of Pakistan and its achievements since Independence, it would suit you much better to select some "Ugly old witches and Wizards" that can take your country to greatness rather than a beauty queen with brains the size of peanuts....

But alas you and your countrymen chose this handsome fella and arent we all jealous

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## notorious_eagle

Firstly, all Pakistani members who are calling "Indira Gandhi" a witch should be ashamed of themselves . What happened to having a debate in a constructive and respectful manner, she was the leader of the State of India and deserves respect. We know her policies were severely Anti Pakistan but that does not mean we should indulge in name calling. If you want to criticize her than criticize her policies, stop it with the name calling. Its absolutely unacceptable to degrade a person who has served as the leader of India, reminds me when people were name calling Indian Army Chief and Pranab Mukherjee which was absolutely despicable. . 

Getting back to the topic, its obvious that she harboured a huge grudge against the State of Pakistan and wanted to teach us a lesson which she did talking advantage of the East Pakistan uprising. We ourselves have a huge hand in what happened in East Pakistan, if we would have given them their rights than the separation of East Pakistan would have never happened. What exactly do you expect those people to do when Zulfikar Ali Bhutto acts like a sore looser and refuses to accept Mujibur Rehman as the rightful PM or Ayub Khan calls them "Ganda Kala Bango". Well no point in dwelling on the past, i believe the separation of East Pakistan was good for both Bangladesh and Pakistan. 

If members think that India could have taken West Pakistan by force than thats just day dreaming. Contrary to East Pakistan which was lightly defended compared to West Pakistan and our soldiers facing conventional/unconventional threat in East, the cream assets of Pakistan Armed Forces were deployed in West Pakistan and had dug themselves in quite favourable positions. So its just wishful thinking that India could have overpowered Pakistan on the West and mind you that many of Indian assets were deployed on the East. Pakistan Army would not face any logistical problems that it was facing on the East, the supply lines were still intact and they could have easily taken the fight to Indian territory. If i remember reading correctly that General Tikka Khan was ready to take the fight into the Indian Territory when his divisions were reinforced but the ceasefire was signed.

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## Omar1984

Peshwa said:


> Sarah Palin anyone?
> 
> Looking at the state of Pakistan and its achievements since Independence, it would suit you much better to select some "Ugly old witches and Wizards" that can take your country to greatness rather *than a beauty queen with brains the size of peanuts*....



Benazir Bhutto was educated in Oxford and Harvard. She was a very intelligent woman and she was beautiful.

She had good intentions but she married a very corrupt and uneducated man, which wasn't her fault, she wanted to honor her mother's wishes. Because of her mother's choice, we are suffering today. Zardari is President only because he was the husband of Benazir Bhutto.


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## Peshwa

Omar1984 said:


> Benazir Bhutto was educated in Oxford and Harvard. She was a very intelligent woman and she was beautiful.
> 
> *She had good intentions but she married a very corrupt and uneducated man, which wasn't her fault because she wanted to honor her mother's wishes.*



And Pakistanis claim us Indians are affected by Family dramas....

Indira Gandhi was also an Oxford educated woman....who married an educated, respectable LSE graduate, Feroze Gandhi (who did not ride his wife's coattails).....
Indira Gandhi embodies the spirit of India, marrying a man outside her religion in true spirit of secularism.....unlike Ms. Bhutto who couldnt even make an informed decision of finding the right spouse even though being a highly educated woman...speaks volumes for the miniscule impact she made on Pakistan coupled with some terrible decisions.....whether its for her family or otherwise is debatable and irrelevant....

Besides...as far as personal achievements are concerned....Indira Gandhi and her progeny outshine anyone that the Bhutto clan has produced....whether it be male or female.....

So Im more than happy to concede beauty points to Ms. Bhutto........
But as far as Politics....achievements and contribution to the nation are concerned.....Ms. Bhutto is pale in comparison to Ms.Gandhi....


Besides its highly immature to be comparing "beauty" of a politician....

Whats next? Nehru vs Jinnah?

PS: Beauty is in the eye of the beholder....so if you fancy Ms. Bhutto....good for you....Im not sure how many would agree with your "evaluation"...to each his own

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## Omar1984

Peshwa said:


> And Pakistanis claim us Indians are affected by Family dramas....
> 
> Indira Gandhi was also an Oxford educated woman....who married an educated, respectable LSE graduate, Feroze Gandhi (who did not ride his wife's coattails).....
> Indira Gandhi embodies the spirit of India, marrying a man outside her religion in true spirit of secularism.....*unlike Ms. Bhutto who couldnt even make an informed decision of finding the right spouse even though being a highly educated woman*...speaks volumes for the miniscule impact she made on Pakistan coupled with some terrible decisions.....whether its for her family or otherwise is debatable and irrelevant....
> 
> Besides...as far as personal achievements are concerned....Indira Gandhi and her progeny outshine anyone that the Bhutto clan has produced....whether it be male or female.....
> 
> So Im more than happy to concede beauty points to Ms. Bhutto........
> But as far as Politics....achievements and contribution to the nation are concerned.....Ms. Bhutto is pale in comparison to Ms.Gandhi....
> 
> 
> Besides its highly immature to be comparing "beauty" of a politician....
> 
> Whats next? Nehru vs Jinnah?
> 
> PS: Beauty is in the eye of the beholder....so if you fancy Ms. Bhutto....good for you....Im not sure how many would agree with your "evaluation"...to each his own



Even some highly educated men and women have a tough time finding the right spouse. 

Its part of our Pakistani culture that many men and women then leave the decision to their parents.

I personally believe that Benazir Bhutto was not interested in getting married but was interested in becoming the Prime Minister of Pakistan, but the society expected her to marry before becoming Prime Minister of Pakistan.

Anyways, I would chose Benazir Bhutto any day over Indira Gandhi. Benazir Bhutto looks like a princess in front of that old witch indira.




Benazir Bhutto



Indira Gandhi


And how many people, other than indians, still remember or give tribute to indira gandhi.


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## Peshwa

Omar1984 said:


> Even some highly educated men and women have a tough time finding the right spouse.
> 
> *Its part of our Pakistani culture that many men and women then leave the decision to their parents.*
> 
> I personally believe that Benazir Bhutto was not interested in getting married but was interested in becoming the Prime Minister of Pakistan, but the society expected her to marry before becoming Prime Minister of Pakistan.



And this doesnt exist in India?

I would say that being an educated woman, especially coming from an influential family, she should have used her position to empower herself and her country....which she did NOT!



> Anyways, I would chose Benazir Bhutto any day over Indira Gandhi. Benazir Bhutto looks like a princess in front of that old witch indira.



Good for you...besides, such childish comments are expected from you....



> Benazir Bhutto
> 
> 
> 
> Indira Gandhi
> 
> 
> And how many people, other than indians, still remember or give tribute to indira gandhi.



Hmm...lets see....the Bangladeshis...for one.....

Besides....this thread itself is an attestation to the popularity of Indira Gandhi in Pakistan......How deeply she has affected Pakistanis is quite evident from comments here....
That itself is enough....

I dont recall seeing a thread about Ms. Bhutto in Bharat Rakshak...LOL!

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## RamGorur

Omar1984 said:


> Anyways, I would chose Benazir Bhutto any day over Indira Gandhi. Benazir Bhutto looks like a princess in front of that old witch indira.


As the saying goes, 'people get the leaders they deserve'; you have finally explained why Pakistan has crappy leaders. You choose leaders not for his/her ability to lead but on how photogenic s/he is, a sign of a basketcase democracy.

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## ice_man

Perceptron said:


> That is correct ; Her place in hell will be alongside Benazir Bhutto who with her beauty and grace charmed her assassins in blowing her up. Now for some dose of reality.
> 
> Indira Gandhi was a born leader who put even Pakistani men to shame ; Zulfikar Ali Bhutto was quite afraid of meeting her in the Shimla Conference fearing that she would force him to accept terms unconditionally and he would lose face in Pakistan. And while Zulfikar Bhutto cringed and whined to the gallows when he was about to be hanged, Indira knew that she would sign her own Death Warrant when she initiated Operation Blue Star, but to restore faith in Democracy she proceeded nonetheless in the face of sure Death.
> 
> I would take an "Ugly" Indira over the Bhutto "biatche" anyday.




i hate the bhuttos! but this is nonsense! SHIMLA india held all the cards but guess what zulfikar ali bhutto out witted the old woman and secured terms that were acceptable to pakistan & pakistanis! 

as for indira throughout her career she just tarnished "democracy" to uphold her grip on power! 

so no the "biatche" has to be indira!

& why we comparing benazir bhutto and indira gandhi bought did nothing for the country!!! its a blessing both are gone!!!


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## S_O_C_O_M

Omar1984 said:


> Benazir Bhutto was educated in Oxford and Harvard. She was a very intelligent woman and she was beautiful.
> 
> She had good intentions but she married a very corrupt and uneducated man, which wasn't her fault, she wanted to honor her mother's wishes. Because of her mother's choice, we are suffering today. Zardari is President only because he was the husband of Benazir Bhutto.


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## rafay321

Markus said:


> lolz....the very mention of Indira Gandhi has many ppl sweating here.
> 
> Yes, even after whatever she did inside India, I still want Sonia or Priyanka to become the next Indira !



If you think anyone in Pak is scared of that witch for anything other then her looks...then seriously wake up. If we can handle Taliban and Afghanistan and USSR and US..then Indra is just 5% of it. She called Pak leaders after Soviet war and asked Pak to dictate India's role in Afghanistan. Gr8 leader hahahaaa.

1971 was a civil war. Anyone would have taken advantage of it. I don't see her brilliance. She was just a stupid woman who killed sikhs and got killed by one. 

She is the only stupid leader on earth who got killed by her own guards.


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## Markus

rafay321 said:


> *If you think anyone in Pak is scared of that witch for anything other then her looks...then seriously wake up*. If we can handle Taliban and Afghanistan and USSR and US..then *Indra is just 5% of it*. *She called Pak leaders after Soviet war and asked Pak to dictate India's role in Afghanistan. Gr8 leader hahahaaa.*
> 
> 1971 was a civil war. Anyone would have taken advantage of it. I don't see her brilliance. She was just a stupid woman who killed sikhs and got killed by one.
> 
> She is the only stupid leader on earth who got killed by her own guards.



The things in bold convince me that you have no idea of what you are writing (maybe you are a case of "parapraxis"), so I dont think you deserve anything more on this.

Perhaps, interaction with your elders on the subject matter will give u some insights.


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## Peshwa

rafay321 said:


> If you think anyone in Pak is scared of that witch for anything other then her looks...then seriously wake up. If we can handle Taliban and Afghanistan and USSR and US..then Indra is just 5% of it. *She called Pak leaders after Soviet war and asked Pak to dictate India's role in Afghanistan. Gr8 leader hahahaaa*.
> 
> 1971 was a civil war. Anyone would have taken advantage of it. I don't see her brilliance. She was just a stupid woman who killed sikhs and got killed by one.
> 
> She is the only stupid leader on earth who got killed by her own guards.



I love how new versions of events keep popping up in Pakistani history....

Cmon guys, at least try to maintian consistency in the propoganda you people imbibe....
Seriously....Pakistani economic problems will be solved if Pakistan is made into a publishing house....especially considering the "creative" minds of many on this forum and their exceptional skills at concocting fictional stories....LOL!
JK Rowling will be out of businees soon....

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## Kinetic

Omar1984 said:


> Anyways, I would chose Benazir Bhutto any day over Indira Gandhi. Benazir Bhutto looks like a princess in front of that old witch indira.



Didn't benazir would become old if she was alive??? Is there a beauty contest going on???? lol  pick means what??? 


Indira with Benazir not acceptable.Indira brought many success for her country including defeating Pakistan in 1971. While Benazir even spent most of her political life abroad. Indira was not a witch but a magician. Iron women.







great leader....

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## maverick1977

hahaha !!!! are u kidding me that indra makes pakistani sweating.. indra didnt do wanything it was our politicians who handed east pakistan in platter to india... she was an opportunists and a terrorists and did a great job in short span of time... that was he goal in life and next time we know she was dead...


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## Illusive

I don't blame Pakistani's for calling names to Indian leaders, cause they don't respect their own leaders (rightfully so). The only respectable 1 might be Jinnah. Other than that dictators and beggars. I bet Pakistani's would have loved Indira if she was their leader.

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## Kinetic

maverick1977 said:


> hahaha !!!! are u kidding me that indra makes pakistani sweating.. indra didnt do wanything it was our politicians who handed east pakistan in platter to india...



 handed east Pakistan to India!!! I think to Indian army that Pakistan surrendered after a war, no one handed it over. 



> she was an opportunists and a terrorists and did a great job in short span of time... that was he goal in life



Than all the PMs and leaders are Pakistan, India, USA, Saudi Arabia are terrorists. 



> and next time we know she was dead...



So was Benazir and many others. But the difference is Indira died for the country and Benazir killed for nothing.

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## Nagraj

Illusive said:


> I don't blame Pakistani's for calling names to Indian leaders, cause they don't respect their own leaders (rightfully so). The only respectable 1 might be Jinnah. Other than that dictators and beggars. I bet Pakistani's would have loved Indira if she was their leader.



i will make a different bet.
If jinnah had lived long enough to rule pakistan 10-15 years
i bet pakistani's will not respect even him

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## rafay321

Markus said:


> The things in bold convince me that you have no idea of what you are writing (maybe you are a case of "parapraxis"), so I dont think you deserve anything more on this.
> 
> Perhaps, interaction with your elders on the subject matter will give u some insights.



alay alay alay chota bacha loney lag gaya 

chun chuna leh loh apna 



Peshwa said:


> I love how new versions of events keep popping up in Pakistani history....
> 
> Cmon guys, at least try to maintian consistency in the propoganda you people imbibe....
> Seriously....Pakistani economic problems will be solved if Pakistan is made into a publishing house....especially considering the "creative" minds of many on this forum and their exceptional skills at concocting fictional stories....LOL!
> JK Rowling will be out of businees soon....



We are less creative than those who make the sunny deol anti pak movies or the 10 qadam tv


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## Markus

rafay321 said:


> alay alay alay chota bacha loney lag gaya
> 
> chun chuna leh loh apna
> 
> 
> We are less creative than those who make the sunny deol anti pak movies or the 10 qadam tv



Wow, what a reply?

You could have had given a better reply had you attended school.

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## Kyusuibu Honbu

I find some people taking solace in words of Nixon,who belabored Indians and Indira Gandhi.

It was because of Indira Gandhi,Nixon came to a conclusion that "Women are tougher than men"

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## rafay321

Markus said:


> Wow, what a reply?
> 
> You could have had given a better reply had you attended school.



Post something better next time if you expect a better reply. Of course you are a PHD in hatred and narrow mindedness being an Indian.


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## somebozo

What is better..mass invasion of a country killing thousands of innocent and your own armed men for nothing or elimination the cause of all hysteria with pinpoint targeted execution?


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## Markus

rafay321 said:


> Post something better next time if you expect a better reply. Of course you are a PHD in hatred and narrow mindedness being an Indian.



Go and read your own posts before lecturing others.

Posts#163 and 164 are more than enough for ppl like you.


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## Avatar

Nagraj said:


> i will make a different bet.
> *If jinnah had lived long enough to rule pakistan 10-15 years
> i bet pakistani's will not respect even him*



Brother, I salute you. I hope you dont get banned for saying this. 

It saddens me to say today's Pakistan is not what Jinnah dreamed of. Instead of discussing hysterical war scenario's with our neighbor we would have been discussing trade opportunities !

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## PakSher

Every Indian thinks of destroying Pakistan. Indra Gandhi is just one, she has been dead for decades and lets not waste any more time on this thread.


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## Irfan Baloch

she was an iron lady, the Margaret Thatcher of the East. In some respects I think she was even more ruthless and capable than her English counterpart.
The Nehru family dynasty has produced some fine statesmen/women no matter I despise them but this Kashmiri family really left a deep mark on the history of post British Indian politics.


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## Markus

Irfan Baloch said:


> *she was an iron lady*, the Margaret Thatcher of the East. In some respects I think she was even more ruthless and capable than her English counterpart.
> The Nehru family dynasty has produced some fine statesmen/women no matter I despise them but this Kashmiri family really left a deep mark on the history of post British Indian politics.



Indeed she was, and she has shown what she was capable of.


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## Irfan Baloch

Illusive said:


> I don't blame Pakistani's for calling names to Indian leaders, cause they don't respect their own leaders (rightfully so). The only respectable 1 might be Jinnah. Other than that dictators and beggars. I bet Pakistani's would have loved Indira if she was their leader.



well in India tell me how much Sikhs and Muslims love her? she was no less than any dictator and was far more ruthless than any military leader. if she was a Pakistani leader, all minorties or enthic groups who would have fell foul of her rage would have hated her.


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## LaBong

Irfan Baloch said:


> well in India tell me how much Sikhs and Muslims love her? she was no less than any dictator and was far more ruthless than any military leader. if she was a Pakistani leader, all minorties or enthic groups who would have fell foul of her rage would have hated her.



Actually both Hindu and Muslims hard liners hate her because he iron-handed them both. Banned RSS and I guess Jamat as well, she was the only one capable of pushing reform to Indian Muslim society which no other tries to do keeping in mind the vote bank and mullahs. I don't think she had anything against Sikhs in general, even kept Sikhs bodyguard after Golden Temple fiasco, just she was someone who never liked to hear no.

Yes, that's our lady with iron balls, just her balls grew too large to the country itself!

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## rafay321

Markus said:


> Go and read your own posts before lecturing others.
> 
> Posts#163 and 164 are more than enough for ppl like you.


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## Markus

rafay321 said:


>



Nice - u get my 2 cents.

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## rafay321

Markus said:


> Nice - u get my 2 cents.


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## S_O_C_O_M

*Nixon's dislike of 'witch' Indira ​*
*Ex-US President Richard Nixon called Indian Prime Minister Indira Gandhi an "old witch",according to recently released documents from the 1970s. *






Kissinger and Nixon opposed an independent Bangladesh

*MAY 26 1971 *
*Kissinger: *They are the most aggressive goddamn people around there
*Nixon:* The Indians?
*Kissinger:* Yeah
*Nixon:* Sure

*His national security adviser, Henry Kissinger, said "the Indians are bastards anyway" in the run-up to the India-Pakistan war of 1971.* 

At the time, the US saw India as too close to the then Soviet Union. 

The US state department has declassified many documents this month on US foreign policy of the time. 

One key conversation transcript comes from the meeting between President Nixon and Mr Kissinger in the White House on 5 November 1971, shortly after a meeting with the visiting Indira Gandhi. 

*"We really slobbered over the old witch," says President Nixon. *

*"The Indians are bastards anyway," says Mr Kissinger. "They are starting a war there."* 

*He adds: "While she was a *****, we got what we wanted too. She will not be able to go home and say that the United States didn't give her a warm reception and therefore in despair she's got to go to war." *

*'Special relationship' *

The Indo-Pakistan war took place between November and December 1971. 

It had its roots in demands in 1970 by East Pakistan, later Bangladesh, for independence. 

In March 1971, Pakistan's military acted to put down the secessionists there. Millions fled to India's West Bengal state. 

India supported an independent Bangladesh and ties with the US plummeted in August 1971 when Delhi signed a treaty with the Soviet Union that included mutual military assistance in case of war. 

*President Nixon, on the other hand, had developed a "special relationship" with Pakistan's then military dictator, General Yahya Khan. *

*In a White House conversation with Mr Kissinger on 4 June 1971, President Nixon berates his ambassador to India, Kenneth Keating, for wanting to, as Mr Kissinger puts it, "help India push the Pakistanis out". *

*President Nixon says: "I don't want him to come in with that kind of jackass thing with me... Keating, like every ambassador who goes over there, goes over there and gets sucked in." *

Mr Kissinger then says: "Those sons-of-bitches, who never have lifted a finger for us, why should we get involved in the morass of East Pakistan? 

"If East Pakistan becomes independent, it is going to become a cesspool. It's going to be 100 million people, they have the lowest standard of living in Asia." 

President Nixon replies: "Yeah." 

Mr Kissinger: "They're going to become a ripe field for communist infiltration." 

President Nixon then openly courted China to try to turn the tide of the war Pakistan's way. 

With the Indian army and armed Bengali separatists winning, the US on 10 December 1971 urged Beijing to mobilise troops towards India, saying the US would back it if the Soviet Union became involved. 

China declined and on 16 December the war ended with the Indian army and Bengali separatists taking Dhaka. 

Exiled leaders had declared Bangladesh independent on 26 March 1971 and, in 1972, Sheikh Mujibur Rahman returned to become the country's first prime minister. 

BBC NEWS | South Asia | Nixon's dislike of 'witch' Indira

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## rafay321

India was the aggressor anyhow. Good Bengali have what they want now even though they live in the dark shadow of the Indian wanabe imperialism.


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## LaBong

S_O_C_O_M said:


> *Nixon's dislike of 'witch' Indira ​*
> *Ex-US President Richard Nixon called Indian Prime Minister Indira Gandhi an "old witch",according to recently released documents from the 1970s. *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kissinger and Nixon opposed an independent Bangladesh
> 
> *MAY 26 1971 *
> *Kissinger: *They are the most aggressive goddamn people around there
> *Nixon:* The Indians?
> *Kissinger:* Yeah
> *Nixon:* Sure
> 
> *His national security adviser, Henry Kissinger, said "the Indians are bastards anyway" in the run-up to the India-Pakistan war of 1971.*
> 
> At the time, the US saw India as too close to the then Soviet Union.
> 
> The US state department has declassified many documents this month on US foreign policy of the time.
> 
> One key conversation transcript comes from the meeting between President Nixon and Mr Kissinger in the White House on 5 November 1971, shortly after a meeting with the visiting Indira Gandhi.
> 
> *"We really slobbered over the old witch," says President Nixon. *
> 
> *"The Indians are bastards anyway," says Mr Kissinger. "They are starting a war there."*
> 
> *He adds: "While she was a *****, we got what we wanted too. She will not be able to go home and say that the United States didn't give her a warm reception and therefore in despair she's got to go to war." *
> 
> *'Special relationship' *
> 
> The Indo-Pakistan war took place between November and December 1971.
> 
> It had its roots in demands in 1970 by East Pakistan, later Bangladesh, for independence.
> 
> In March 1971, Pakistan's military acted to put down the secessionists there. Millions fled to India's West Bengal state.
> 
> India supported an independent Bangladesh and ties with the US plummeted in August 1971 when Delhi signed a treaty with the Soviet Union that included mutual military assistance in case of war.
> 
> *President Nixon, on the other hand, had developed a "special relationship" with Pakistan's then military dictator, General Yahya Khan. *
> 
> *In a White House conversation with Mr Kissinger on 4 June 1971, President Nixon berates his ambassador to India, Kenneth Keating, for wanting to, as Mr Kissinger puts it, "help India push the Pakistanis out". *
> 
> *President Nixon says: "I don't want him to come in with that kind of jackass thing with me... Keating, like every ambassador who goes over there, goes over there and gets sucked in." *
> 
> Mr Kissinger then says: "Those sons-of-bitches, who never have lifted a finger for us, why should we get involved in the morass of East Pakistan?
> 
> "If East Pakistan becomes independent, it is going to become a cesspool. It's going to be 100 million people, they have the lowest standard of living in Asia."
> 
> President Nixon replies: "Yeah."
> 
> Mr Kissinger: "They're going to become a ripe field for communist infiltration."
> 
> President Nixon then openly courted China to try to turn the tide of the war Pakistan's way.
> 
> With the Indian army and armed Bengali separatists winning, the US on 10 December 1971 urged Beijing to mobilise troops towards India, saying the US would back it if the Soviet Union became involved.
> 
> China declined and on 16 December the war ended with the Indian army and Bengali separatists taking Dhaka.
> 
> Exiled leaders had declared Bangladesh independent on 26 March 1971 and, in 1972, Sheikh Mujibur Rahman returned to become the country's first prime minister.
> 
> BBC NEWS | South Asia | Nixon's dislike of 'witch' Indira




Lol some had his *** burning!

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## Abu Zolfiqar

she was an old, ugly witch. She got what she had coming to her.

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## Von Hölle

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> she was an old, ugly witch. She got what she had coming to her.



Ohh ..does it still hurt so much??!! ..she is long dead !!

Chalo at least Indians are mature enough, not expressing similar views for the person responsible for breaking of our country!!

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## Areesh

Von Hölle;1199320 said:


> Ohh ..does it still hurt so much??!! ..she is long dead !!
> 
> *Chalo at least Indians are mature enough not express similar views for the person responsible for breaking of our country!!*



You can't. You also know the difference between leaders and terror exporters.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

doesn't hurt at all (au contraire, to be honest)....but obviously as she had ill-will towards Pakistan, 99.99999&#37; of Pakistanis would have no reservation or disdain for how she was ultimately dealt with (conveniently, it was an 'internal job')

I'm sure the Sikhs (of hindustan) would not feel so bad either.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Dhoom_Machale said:


> Why would Indira like to attack west Pakistan when she had already succeeded in breking apart east Pakistan?



doing so would have been a suicide; it was easier to attack a more vulnerable and lightly guarded place. Suffice to say that the Pro-Pakistan elements put up one hell of a fight till the very end, despite HUGE odds against them.

for supporting an ''idea'' and identity, they were massacred by hindustani-sponsored terrorists. Pakistanis are very patient and resilient people -- if we can't forgive for something like that which happened, we can at least move on (don't mistake that for ''forgetting'')

hindustan should have learned lessons from that war when it started unfair subjugation of occupied Kashmiris. World (and Allah SWT) is witness to the indian blunders in Kashmir


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## Von Hölle

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> doesn't hurt at all (au contraire, to be honest)....but obviously as she had ill-will towards Pakistan, 99.99999% of Pakistanis would have no reservation or disdain for how she was ultimately dealt with (conveniently, it was an 'internal job')
> 
> I'm sure the Sikhs (of hindustan) would not feel so bad either.



Well the thing is many leaders were born in the subcontinent(still do) and the fact is not one of them has 100% popularity ..every leader has been "given names" and disdain during their lives ..that includes "everyone" form very best of Pakistani leader to the very best of Indian leaders *but as a common courtesy one tries not to speak ill of them ..after they are already dead.*

Otherwise we too can express our reservation about the leader who broke my nation..but alas we are better than that.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

to be honest, rain, hail or sun-shine --i don't take saffron words very seriously or at heart .....i wouldnt take personal offence.

but anywayyyys........!


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## Von Hölle

Areesh said:


> *You can't*. You also know the difference between leaders and terror exporters.



*Yes you are right!! we can't!*

Not because their methods were different (though consequences were the same and both involved massive blood shed) but because *we are better than that!!*.*.Why to trample on someones grave!!*

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## Von Hölle

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> to be honest, rain, hail or sun-shine --i don't take saffron words very seriously or at heart .....i wouldnt take personal offence.
> 
> but anywayyyys........!



Maybe I was not able to explain the *"point"* in my last post or maybe thats how you are??!!


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## Areesh

Von Hölle;1199387 said:


> *Yes you are right!! we can't!*
> 
> Not because their methods were different (though consequences were the same and both involved massive blood shed) but because *we are better than that!!*.*.Why to trample on someones grave!!*



You aren't naive to find the difference between a political struggle for one's own nation's freedom and for exporting and arming terrorists to someone's else territory. Or you are naive enough that you can't find a difference between the both... Make your choice.


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## Von Hölle

Areesh said:


> You aren't naive to find the difference between a political struggle for one's own nation's freedom and for exporting and arming terrorists to someone's else territory. Or you are naive enough that you can't find a difference between the both... Make your choice.



I am sure the "ppl you are talking about" Bangladeshis call those people as freedom fighters..and they will also tell you that "they" fought for their nation's freedom..so only difference b/w your version and theirs is the perspective..and *same can be said about Indian partition.*


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## Areesh

Von Hölle;1199817 said:


> I am sure the "ppl you are talking about" Bangladeshis call those people as freedom fighters..and they will also tell you that "they" fought for their nation's freedom..so only difference b/w your version and theirs is the perspective..and *same can be said about Indian partition.*



Who is talking about Bengalis right now. I am talking about Quaid's political struggle for the independence of his own nation against the Indra's policy of exporting terror in someone's else territory. Their is a huge difference between the both if you try to comprehend.

Good thing is that she paid for her terror export policy and is now resting in pieces.


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## Von Hölle

Areesh said:


> Who is talking about Bengalis right now. I am talking about Quaid's political struggle for the independence of his own nation against the Indra's policy of exporting terror in someone's else territory. Their is a huge difference between the both if you try to comprehend.
> 
> Good thing is that she paid for her terror export policy and is now resting in pieces.



You were ..when you called Bengali freedom fighters as terrorists..

Irrespective of the methods both achieved their objectives but body count due to former's decision ranging in millions and later's ranging in thousands.

To me it seems Indra Gandhi's way was much less bloodier.

*Now thats she is dead and this is a Pakistani forum, you can call her anything ..but thats all that you can do..you could not do $hit, when she was alive. *


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## Areesh

Von Hölle;1200427 said:


> You were ..when you called Bengali freedom fighters as terrorists..
> 
> Irrespective of the methods both achieved their objectives but body count due to former's decision ranging in millions and later's ranging in thousands.
> 
> To me it seems Indra Gandhi's way was much less bloodier.
> 
> *Now thats she is dead and this is a Pakistani forum, you can call her anything ..but thats all that you can do..you could not do $hit, when she was alive. *



IT was my mistake. I thought you aren't naive and would understand the difference between political struggle for the one's own nation adn interfering in someone's else issues and patronizing in someone's else territory. But you are naive so it seems difficult for you to understand the difference. Well anyways not my problem. 

As mentioned earlier the positive aspect in all this issue is that Indra met the same fate like any other terrorist. It is true whether it is indra 
or whether it is bait ullah mehsood. All terrorists have the same end.


----------



## third eye

Areesh said:


> IT was my mistake. I thought you aren't naive and would understand the difference between political struggle for the one's own nation adn interfering in someone's else issues and patronizing in someone's else territory. But you are naive so it seems difficult for you to understand the difference. Well anyways not my problem.
> 
> As mentioned earlier the positive aspect in all this issue is that Indra met the same fate like any other terrorist. *It is true whether it is indra
> or whether it is bait ullah mehsood. All terrorists have the same end*.



Would it be correct to add Zia & BB to this list ?


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## Areesh

third eye said:


> Would it be correct to add Zia & BB to this list ?



Your list your choice. We Pakistanis here on defence.pk or any where else have a consensus over Indra and her status.


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## third eye

Seeing the condition Pak has been over the last decade I would think that just as Jinnah was the man who created Pak, Zia was the man who destroyed Pak and all what it was meant to be.

As rgds IG, it takes courage to take had decisions the lady had guts, sycophants were her undoing. Mush did the same at lal Masjid. Personally I found this ability to take hard decisions the only silver lining in his character.


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## Von Hölle

Areesh said:


> IT was my mistake. I thought you aren't naive and would understand the difference between political struggle for the one's own nation adn interfering in someone's else issues and patronizing in someone's else territory. But you are naive so it seems difficult for you to understand the difference. Well anyways not my problem.
> 
> As mentioned earlier the positive aspect in all this issue is that Indra met the same fate like any other terrorist. *It is true whether it is indra
> or whether it is bait ullah mehsood. All terrorists have the same end.
> *




*All right dude ..whatever gives you closure and eases your pain!!*


----------



## Subramanian

somebozo said:


> Well the show is out for the whole world to see what Pakistan did with Indian allies they were blindly riding. Indian ambitions for past 63 years have been total anhillation of Pakistan because they cannot beat down anyone into submission as long Pakistan sticks like a thorn in their policies. Imagine with no Pakistan all the small south asian countries like Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Nepal, Bhutan and Kashmir will not dare oppose a word against India.
> 
> 
> 
> Back then the United States was popular due to its fair play policy and Soviets were the evil repressive forces. Its clear to see that they did not jump to protect Pakistan for its mistakes. Yes East-Pakistan was being repressed and yes they launched a rebellion and this was all internal matter of Pakistan. The Americans did not approve of Pakistani attrocities or took sides no matter how strong the alliance was. However the words in bold are ironic as America is totally doing the opposite right now. Invading Iraq and Afghanistan to install democracy.




United states didn't do that because Bangladesh was far away from the soviet union and India was like Yuogaslavia,a USSR ally but not a country under warsaw pact like Pakistan under CENTO.

I dont know how serious indira gandhi was about this audacious plan but richard nixon and henry kissinger are two of the top corrupt buttered up choots in the world.to take their word as truth is not so easy.


----------



## rafay321

Von Hölle;1199387 said:


> *Yes you are right!! we can't!*
> 
> Not because their methods were different (though consequences were the same and both involved massive blood shed) but because *we are better than that!!*.*.Why to trample on someones grave!!*



Another SAINT from India. The number just keeps growing


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## Areesh

Von Hölle;1201287 said:


> [/B]
> 
> *All right dude ..whatever gives you closure and eases your pain!!*



No pain dear. It was annoying to have some terrorist like to Indra to be compared with the father of a nation. Your post was outrageous so just give you a reality check.


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## Von Hölle

Areesh said:


> No pain dear. It was annoying to have some terrorist like to Indra to be compared with the father of a nation. Your post was outrageous so just give you a reality check.



*As I said this a Pakistani forum ..hence you have the liberty to call her anything and get away with it...but vice versa would not be possible..otherwise I would have explained in detail. *


----------



## Areesh

Von Hölle;1203864 said:


> *As I said this a Pakistani forum ..hence you have the liberty to call her anything and get away with it...but vice versa would not be possible..otherwise I would have explained in detail. *



I already know what would be your explanation dear. I have read many of them on different Bharati websites and forums. Doesn't change the facts about Indra.


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## Von Hölle

Areesh said:


> I already know what would be your explanation dear. I have read many of them on different Bharati websites and forums. Doesn't change the facts about Indra.



If you are a telepath ..have already read my thoughts ..

You would know..I would group both of them together...so call her what ever you want..but same standards would apply to him too...but you already knew that!!


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## Areesh

Von Hölle;1203902 said:


> If you are a telepath ..have already read my thoughts ..
> 
> You would know..I would group both of them together...so call her what ever you want..but same standards would apply to him too...but you already knew that!!



I know what would be your so called "facts". So no need o sharing them here and wasting my time and your's also. As far as standards are concern you might impose your standards on him but the fact doesn't changes he fought politically for the freedom of his nation which wasn't the case with Indra.


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## DesiGuy

damm, with due respect, 

i really hope she would have done that at that time.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

with due respect, our Sikh allies took care of the problem

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## k_n

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> with due respect, our Sikh allies took care of the problem



Absolutely correct on the 'allies' part . Thanks for accepting that the seperatist millitant section of the Sikh community are your 'allies'


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Nixon liked em?

by the way, the Sikh Khatris come in huge numbers to holy Lahore and are received well. I sense some mild form of frustration from your tone; am I mistaken?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> with due respect, our Sikh allies took care of the problem



ouch...ouch....ouch....ouch........ouch....ouch


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## DesiGuy

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> with due respect, our Sikh allies took care of the problem




Seriously?? 

so is this the prize given to them??? 


2 Sikhs beheaded in Pakistan's northwest - CNN


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## Abu Zolfiqar

the locusts who carried out that anti-Pakistani, anti-Islam act are the same people butchering innocent civilians in other acts of terror; therefore i reject your post in its entirety


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## Jungibaaz

DesiGuy said:


> Seriously??
> 
> so is this the prize given to them???
> 
> 
> 2 Sikhs beheaded in Pakistan's northwest - CNN



Those that carried out this act are not Pakistanis, they're not even human, they are pests and should be eradicated.

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## k_arura

Indira was the MAN India had in power. Well perhaps it is USA's job now to finish the job -


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## regular

k_arura said:


> Indira was the MAN India had in power. Well perhaps it is USA's job now to finish the job -


Are you Indian?
why are you against Pakistan so much?


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## Major Ram

Pakistan should be thankful to US then..


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## Veeru

She was the best leader India can get ever her only bad decision was bhinderwala/blue star.

---------- Post added at 12:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:28 PM ----------

We have lost the opportunity in 1971 we could have liberated whole Kashmir and ended pak-china thread forever and also get route to Afghanistan/central Asia.

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## karan.1970

Veeru said:


> She was the best leader India can get ever her only bad decision was bhinderwala/blue star.



Not really.. The lame Simla agreement which returned key areas back to Pakistan was the worse decision. India had Pakistan over the barrel at that time.. She let that opportunity pass..

But then no one is perfect and what she did in 1971 is much more than what any of Indian leaders had achieved.. So yes.. Hats off..


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## luckyyy

the nature of the militry preparation of indian army at the westren boarder in 1971 were totaly defence , it never suggest that Indira Gandhi had any planned a mass invasion of Pakistan...
army remain occupied the defence stronghold to nutralize any pakistani agreesion on westren border and there is not a single incident to suggest that they have any forward plans....
the CIA report is based on sune loosely talktive person and do not turly reflect any ground reality...


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## Abu Zolfiqar

witch got what was coming to her......if only he used a sawed off .12 guage with buckshot shells

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## ares

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> witch got what was coming to her......if only he used a sawed off .12 guage with buckshot shells



Well people are born and they die and some times violent deaths.

But it is good know you still feel the pain at what that woman accomplished wrt your country...such that you go out of your way to abuse her even two and half decades after death.


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## karan.1970

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> witch got what was coming to her......if only he used a sawed off .12 guage with buckshot shells



uuff.. Yeh Tadap..  I love it ...


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## Abu Zolfiqar

well being Pakistani, you expect me to embrace her?

her treachery stood behind her and her grave stood before her.....all it took was a noble guy with a turban and a kirpan to get the job done properly.

her death came at no cost to the Pakistani tax-payer either


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## ares

No we expect you to get over it..she did what she had to(and we Indians respect her for that)..its been four decades since then and 25 yrs since she been dead ..but till when are you gonna hurt?


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## Abu Zolfiqar

nahhh not hurt. . .

re-read my post. I was only upset that the proper 'instrumentation' was not utilized prior to disposal.


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

Been through several CIA and other intelligence records , but never found something hinting this


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## King123

I don't know the article is true or false. But We all respect Indira Gandhi (except Bluestar). I wish, another lady will born again. 

Pakistan had few leaders (Few Army dictator) who were courageous to take India and Inspite of all our capability, We failed to take Kashmir back. If Pakistan had capability, surely they would never missed it. But we missed. We even didn't initiated any war. Our defence remained as defensive. Hope another lady or any strong leader will represent our country again. I am sure, it will sooner or later.

As of now, We lack only strong leader. May be good for the economy and International relation. But we need to face the threat last time in century. So, That we not only win, We don't leave any chance for revival.

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## ares

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> nahhh not hurt. . .
> 
> re-read my post. I was only upset that the proper 'instrumentation' was not utilized prior to disposal.


 
You can deny it, but no sane man tramples on another's graves unless the memories are just too painfull..I can almost visualize you wince, every time her name comes up.

That in itself achievement after all 'giving your enemies a beating that they will not forget even after you are long gone'..that is not winning a war but making history.

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## Areesh

ares said:


> You can deny it, but no sane man tramples on another's graves unless the memories are just too painfull..I can almost visualize you wince, every time her name comes up.
> 
> That in itself achievement after all 'giving your enemies a beating that they will not forget even after you are long gone'..that is not winning a war but making history.



We all love some and hate some. Get over it and stop whining now.


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## karan.1970

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> nahhh not hurt. . .
> 
> re-read my post. I was only upset that the proper 'instrumentation' was not utilized prior to disposal.



Yeah.. you are so right.. But you should be glad such people in your country now have access to much better instrumentation and have much more busy schedules as are visible in daily papers.. Chalo, atleast your terrorists are better than ours


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## ares

Areesh said:


> We all love some and hate some. Get over it and stop whining now.


 
You mistake my glee(bordering on sadistic pleasure) for whining.


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## Areesh

ares said:


> You mistake my glee(bordering on sadistic pleasure) for whining.


 

Whatever it was. Get over it.


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## crimemaster_gogo

ares said:


> You can deny it, but no sane man tramples on another's graves unless the memories are just too painfull..I can almost visualize you wince, every time her name comes up.
> 
> That in itself achievement after all 'giving your enemies a beating that they will not forget even after you are long gone'..that is not winning a war but making history.



well you expected them to feel remorse on her assassination ? then you must be not smart as i thought, their president Mr. ten percenttii was flirting with Sarah palin, and just few weeks back his wife Benazir bhutto was assassinated open in the crowd. they see death everyday so if they start to remorse then who will do all the work ?


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## danger007

somebozo said:


> Well the show is out for the whole world to see what Pakistan did with Indian allies they were blindly riding. Indian ambitions for past 63 years have been total anhillation of Pakistan because they cannot beat down anyone into submission as long Pakistan sticks like a thorn in their policies. Imagine with no Pakistan all the small south asian countries like Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Nepal, Bhutan and Kashmir will not dare oppose a word against India.
> 
> 
> 
> Back then the United States was popular due to its fair play policy and Soviets were the evil repressive forces. Its clear to see that they did not jump to protect Pakistan for its mistakes. Yes East-Pakistan was being repressed and yes they launched a rebellion and this was all internal matter of Pakistan. The Americans did not approve of Pakistani attrocities or took sides no matter how strong the alliance was. However the words in bold are ironic as America is totally doing the opposite right now. Invading Iraq and Afghanistan to install democracy.


 kashmir is an indian state and it will remain indian state ok.


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## Novice09

IMO India lack leaders who have guts... They keep wasting oportunities to teach lesson to our beloved neighbors who do not let any stone unturned to destabalize us... the recent one was mumbai attacks... clearly indicating the state of so called stateless terrorists...

US do arm twisting because we allow that... peace...


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## karan.1970

Novice09 said:


> IMO India lack leaders who have guts... They keep wasting oportunities to teach lesson to our beloved neighbors who do not let any stone unturned to destabalize us... the recent one was mumbai attacks... clearly indicating the state of so called stateless terrorists...
> 
> US do arm twisting because we allow that... peace...



Not really.. I dont know if any attack on or war with Pakistan could have inflicted a worse damage that has already in place without India risking any of its assets/growth.. Read this 9 year old article and see how accurate the predictions have been (directionally)

http://www.defence.pk/forums/strategic-geopolitical-issues/44215-monkey-trap.html

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## regular

Major Ram said:


> Pakistan should be thankful to US then..


Yes! we do thanks to USA if they did any favour to us. But their favor to us was infact favor to themselves.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

King123 said:


> I don't know the article is true or false. But We all respect Indira Gandhi (except Bluestar). I wish, another lady will born again.
> 
> Pakistan had few leaders (Few Army dictator) who were courageous to take India and Inspite of all our capability, We failed to take Kashmir back. If Pakistan had capability, surely they would never missed it. But we missed. We even didn't initiated any war. Our defence remained as defensive. Hope another lady or any strong leader will represent our country again. I am sure, it will sooner or later.
> 
> As of now, We lack only strong leader. May be good for the economy and International relation. But we need to face the threat last time in century. So, That we not only win, We don't leave any chance for revival.



i hope you find a better English teacher 

---------- Post added at 08:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:51 PM ----------




ares said:


> 'giving your enemies a beating that they will not forget even after you are long gone'..that is not winning a war but making history.



funny thing is, 10 unruly lightly armed kids did the same thing to the people in your financial capital


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## xTra

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> i hope you find a better English teacher
> 
> ---------- Post added at 08:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:51 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> funny thing is, 10 unruly lightly armed kids did the same thing to the people in your financial capital



So you are proud of those 10 kids, that they made history.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Proud? No not really.


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## blackops

i would have loved to see what indra would have did is she would have been alive there was a col in my city he told us in a school confrence that indra was hell bent to attack pak again


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## karan.1970

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> i hope you find a better English teacher
> 
> ---------- Post added at 08:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:51 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> funny thing is, 10 unruly lightly armed kids did the same thing to the people in your financial capital



And I thought you had a military linkage.. Funny that you would compare a terror attack with a war.. Is that the level to which concepts of military deteriorated to in Pakistan that you see little difference between your soldiers and terrorists.. ?? Anyway, more power to you mate.. 

May be Mullen has a point

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## misterme2

Bang Galore said:


> Factually incorrect. Nuclear, the origin of the Green revolution etc predated her & the missile program & IT were primarily in the government of Rajiv Gandhi though the IT revolution was largely a private companies led affair starting with Texas instruments opening an office in Bangalore.
> 
> Indira Gandhi had only one major success & that was the 1971 war. She came perilously close to damaging the Indian constitution, its judiciary & its democracy by her autocratic actions. Her economic policies, now thankfully jettisoned only served to keep India as a third world state. Her policies in Punjab caused the largest fissure in the Indian state & thousand of lives were lost to her short sightedness. Her Kashmir policy which was continued by her son in the now infamous 1987 elections are why we see the state in a flux even today. Both of these states fell victim to her political maneuvering & a heavy price was & is being paid. Her patronising of the LTTE was disastrous and eventually ended with the taking of her son's life among countless others.
> 
> Passage of time & a lack of inclination in the present generation to read & understand history is primarily the reason for this glorification of Indira Gandhi. While she certainly had her pluses, she also had a truckload of minuses that should not be overlooked.




Don;t be tooo harsh, it is impossible to judge someone who never finished what she set off to do. If Pakistan was taken care and broken up, would Kashmir even be relevant? No it wouldn;t. Neither would Golden Temple Fiasco in which case the terrorists were in fact supported by the ISI, so dig a little deeper before you sprout nonsense. Of course, her economic policies were a failure but in the end, India;s success today is partly contribted to her. She understand INdia is young, and if she opened her doors wide open, the ppl would not be able to grasp the differences so quickly. Her plan was in theory great, but it never worked out due to a variety of reasons. Anyhow, with the removal of such policies India was able to bear fruit due to her isolation. In fact, as the world suffers from a world wid recession, think about how the domestic, insular INdia economy is protected and still strong. Think before you jump and shout.


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## deckingraj

misterme2 said:


> Don;t be tooo harsh, it is impossible to judge someone who never finished what she set off to do.


You are right but i believe there are many of her minuses which are good enough for us to conclude that only good work worth mentioning about her tenure is 1971 war..... With China on one hand and US on other she surely was an Iron lady...Otherwise she did her best to trash our constituion as well as thanks to her Punjab was a living hell for almost a decade.



> If Pakistan was taken care and broken up, would Kashmir even be relevant? No it wouldn;t.


Don't be mistaken. Geo-politics would have never let that happen. 



> Neither would Golden Temple Fiasco in which case the terrorists were in fact supported by the ISI, so dig a little deeper before you sprout nonsense.


Well chill and better read the history books please.... Golden temple fiasco had no ISI role...Bhindrawala was IG creation and not ISI...Punjab militancy was supported by them post Golden Temple fiasco and 84 riots...But who is to blame for it??? Don't we blame Pakistan for 71??? The created conditions which allowed India to take advantage of. How is this any different???




> Of course, her economic policies were a failure but in the end, India;s success today is partly contribted to her.


I am at loss here....How on this earth you can relate a decade old economic success with her???



> She understand INdia is young, and if she opened her doors wide open, the ppl would not be able to grasp the differences so quickly.


What are you smoking mate??? is that even a logical response??? It was only when we were about to be bankrupt that we finally opened our gates...it was a bad move from vote bank politics perspective and that was the reason our so called leaders never did what should have been done long before...have no doubt about it...



> Her plan was in theory great, but it never worked out due to a variety of reasons. Anyhow, with the removal of such policies India was able to bear fruit due to her isolation.


India suffered a lot due to its so called isolation... Look at china in the east. They broke this so called isolation a decade earlier then us and see where they are...




> In fact, as the world suffers from a world wid recession, think about how the domestic, insular INdia economy is protected and still strong. Think before you jump and shout.


I am not sure if you are in favor of current economic policies or against it..Make your point clear and i can respond....

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## misterme2

Agreed, china broke off its isolation path but you think CHina;s 10 yr head start is the difference you are seeing today? Not at all, the policy was iin place for at least 1-2 decades before in China with long term planning under Deng guidance. India lacked the right political support. That;s why when folks bad mouth commnism and cheer democracy, I laugh. The Chinese and even some INdians understood, that in theory its great but to reap its full potnential, the ppl must be educated on how to see it for the greater good not personal good.



I am in favor of the current economic policies but I was trying to point out that India;s Isolation worked out in her favor. Times were rough back then but there was plan but it did not see fruit. I compare it to China and how the Chinese leaders saw that her ppl needed to be weary and aware of Western society. In India, many don;t have a clue, especially if you are from the lower strata of society. Look at how how developed countries are going back to old ways in terms of cooking, green products, etc. India is suffering more now, as it readily absorbs all this but the ppl don;t understand the wide long term implications. Look at the rate o obseity in India, the increase of cancers and heart disease? Hell, look at how the jute industry was almost destroyed and reduced to a low leve. We love to use plastic bags yet lack any means of sanitation. Indians want these products but there is no long term vision of the harm of such products. Take a look at the US, they are trying to revive the slow food movement, reduce plastic bag conumption, even cig companies make most of their profit in places like India due to lax laws. Our ppl suffer while the politicans get ****** rich. The sad part is when India is in deeply terrible position, these scumbags will fly off with their hden wealt. In order for India to truly succeed, we need to educate out ppl. Socialism may sound bad but ideally it is a great principle but nobody had been able to show its true potential except maybe Cuba, even so you will have naysayers.
Don't be mistaken. Geo-politics would have never let that happen. That;s what I was referring to when I said INdira knew India was "young." I agree though for the most part Socialism was bad but it was an experience and hopefully India learned from its mistakes.



As for Punjab militancy, I could have swore I read somewhere it was supported, trained and partly funded by ISI. I don;t know what IG is, but of course there was a strong Kalistani element. Nonetheless ISI jumped on the opportunity when it presented itself.

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## deckingraj

misterme2 said:


> Agreed, china broke off its isolation path but you think CHina;s 10 yr head start is the difference you are seeing today? Not at all, the policy was iin place for at least 1-2 decades before in China with long term planning under Deng guidance. India lacked the right political support. That;s why when folks bad mouth commnism and cheer democracy, I laugh. The Chinese and even some INdians understood, that in theory its great but to reap its full potnential, the ppl must be educated on how to see it for the greater good not personal good.



1-2 decades??? are you sure about it??? I know when you change your economic model things take time before they pay results but 1-2 decades??? This is a big overstatement...Of-course you don't open your markets just like that and you plan the move...China is ahead of us by a big margin and the 10 year head start is a major factor in it...Don't ignore it...If you have doubts compare the performance of China and India before 80's...No doubt each system has its flaws. However if you count the number of succesful countries then apart from China i see only democracies...Does that say anything to you???





> I am in favor of the current economic policies but I was trying to point out that India;s Isolation worked out in her favor.


I have removed rest of the point because you are going all over...Look my point is that since we were a closed economy(we still have lot of issues there) it resulted in very slow growth. We have suffered a lot and our leaders are to blame for it...IG(Indira Gandhi) is one of them...period...




> As for Punjab militancy, I could have swore I read somewhere it was supported, trained and partly funded by ISI. I don;t know what IG is, but of course there was a strong Kalistani element. Nonetheless ISI jumped on the opportunity when it presented itself.



IG means indira gandhi..my bad....anyways you need to read more on this subject....

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

I think she died , did not notice the body guard did not like her very much 

His body guard had 99 problems , that ... &&&& ain't one.... 

No more is how it goes


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## RazPaK

Sure indira made plans, but she never went through with them. Indians make plans against Pakistan every day, but do they ever go through? No. It well never happen.

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## ares

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> i hope you find a better English teacher
> 
> ---------- Post added at 08:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:51 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> funny thing is, 10 unruly lightly armed kids did the same thing to the people in your financial capital



But unlike you we got our vengeance.

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## karan.1970

RazPaK said:


> Sure indira made plans, but she never went through with them. Indians make plans against Pakistan every day, but do they ever go through? No. It well never happen.



Read the thread titled Monkey Trap..

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## Abu Zolfiqar

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> His body guard had 99 problems , that ... &&&& ain't one...





Jay-Z 

---------- Post added at 03:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:57 PM ----------




ares said:


> But unlike you we got our vengeance.



against whom? 

no, when india huffs and puffs, it takes its anger out on unarmed Kashmiri protestors --a good number of whom end up in mass graves

---------- Post added at 04:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:58 PM ----------




karan.1970 said:


> And I thought you had a military linkage.. Funny that you would compare a terror attack with a war.. Is that the level to which concepts of military deteriorated to in Pakistan that you see little difference between your soldiers and terrorists.. ?? Anyway, more power to you mate..
> 
> May be Mullen has a point




hmmmm, wasn't one of the charges against the kasab guy "waging war against hindoostan" ?

as for my credentials, you dont need to worry about them, kid. You can just discuss the subject.


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## Tshering22

Here's a trivia; if she had so much dedication to plan the "mass" attack as stated here, then why do you think she called our Army back from Lahore all the way back in 71? 

CIA is funny sometimes..


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## Dalai Lama

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> hmmmm, wasn't one of the charges against the kasab guy "waging war against hindoostan" ?



Obviously "waging war" as a civilian/terrorist is not the same as waging war as part of an Army. You don't see us pressing charges for the actual wars do you? We choose to just send you packing.



Abu Zolfiqar said:


> as for my credentials, you dont need to worry about them, kid. You can just discuss the subject.



Not worried at all. Clearly we've been over-estimating the enemy all along.


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## lem34

^^^^ she was right. She should have atacked when she had a chance. Bottom line now with pakistan with nukes india can not contemplate any misadventure.

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## RazPaK

Butters said:


> Not worried at all. Clearly we've been over-estimating the enemy all along.



Do Pakistanis really give Indians sleepless nights?


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## misterme2

deckingraj said:


> 1-2 decades??? are you sure about it??? I know when you change your economic model things take time before they pay results but 1-2 decades??? This is a big overstatement...Of-course you don't open your markets just like that and you plan the move...China is ahead of us by a big margin and the 10 year head start is a major factor in it...Don't ignore it...If you have doubts compare the performance of China and India before 80's...No doubt each system has its flaws. However if you count the number of succesful countries then apart from China i see only democracies...Does that say anything to you???
> 
> 
> 
> No successful countries being democracy is nothing surprising. Communisim has been at odds with Democracy since its creation. To look at the number of countries the were successful under diferent types of gov't is not a true indicator because very few Communism based countries exist today and whatever is left, has sanctions placed like Cuba. Of Course, 10 yrs is important but you are glossing over the most important aspect of opening up the economy, the people in place have to be educated and taught to have a certain mindset. Think what is China;s best interest, nation over ppl, China against everyone, etc. Some may say this parnoia but this has helped the Chinese tremendously. The sort of conditioned their ppl to ripe the benefits of Western society while retaining their own identity and looking out for their interests first and only. Planning in China and India is different and should not be compared. India still has a lot to learn.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have removed rest of the point because you are going all over...Look my point is that since we were a closed economy(we still have lot of issues there) it resulted in very slow growth. We have suffered a lot and our leaders are to blame for it...IG(Indira Gandhi) is one of them...period...
> 
> 
> We did not grow externally, but we grew internally. Though this is not seen as an achievement, with a population of 1 billion, it turned out to be an asset. It has helped in the current recession, but to truly evolve and change for the better we have to become competitive and in order to do that, we need to open up and compete with the rest of the world. At the same time, laws and regulations have to help Indian companies like the Chinese help their own first, capitalize on our biggest resource, our ppl via edcuation (Khanacademy.com) and make them aware. Not everything in the West is good and some of the old ways in India and the world are better for the environment and personal health. Sorry I am all over the place, but its all kind of interconnected.
> 
> 
> 
> IG means indira gandhi..my bad....anyways you need to read more on this subject....




I Agree I need to. Like I said Im not saying she was perfect but maybe given time, she could have corrected her wrongs. Anyhow, my biggest problem with the Congress is family dynasty politics which shows the flaw in INDIAN democracy. A truly democratic country cannot and should not have one family running the country since Independence, it shows we are a false democracy. We need to correct this and put only capable leaders forward. Look at the US, learn from our mistakes, don;t implement the same problems. 2012 elections and we don;t have any strong candidates. Indian must change, no more BS politicans like Advani, Rahul, and a host of others, you know the dinosaurs who never left and have been in politics since India got independence.


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## RazPaK

misterme2 said:


> I Agree I need to. Like I said Im not saying she was perfect but maybe given time, she could have corrected her wrongs. Anyhow, my biggest problem with the Congress is family dynasty politics which shows the flaw in INDIAN democracy. A truly democratic country cannot and should not have one family running the country since Independence, it shows we are a false democracy. We need to correct this and put only capable leaders forward. Look at the US, learn from our mistakes, don;t implement the same problems. 2012 elections and we don;t have any strong candidates. Indian must change, no more BS politicans like Advani, Rahul, and a host of others, you know the dinosaurs who never left and have been in politics since India got independence.


 Are you serious? She was responsible for slaughtering Sikhs at the Golden Temple!!!


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## Mike2011

This is right time but we don't any strong leader. Our sardar is spineless.

BTW looks like we don't have to do anything, pak is in self destruction mode. Couple things we can do to fasten the process.


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## ares

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> against whom?
> 
> no, when india huffs and puffs, it takes its anger out on unarmed Kashmiri protestors --a good number of whom end up in mass graves
> 
> 
> 
> .




If your official stories for last 3yrs are to be followed and believed..then it is you guys!!...which is besides the fact that we are the ones who delivered justice on those attacked Mumbai..unlike your case.


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## jetti

RazPaK said:


> Are you serious? She was responsible for slaughtering Sikhs at the Golden Temple!!!


 
half knowledge is a dangerous thing. in this case exposes your ignorance. since you wont understand any explanation, please read lal masjid and replace lal masjid with golden temple. then come and talk

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## deckingraj

misterme2 said:


> No successful countries being democracy is nothing surprising. Communisim has been at odds with Democracy since its creation. To look at the number of countries the were successful under diferent types of gov't is not a true indicator because very few Communism based countries exist today and whatever is left, has sanctions placed like Cuba.



I am sorry but this is a very weird logic...Communism did not survive and many so called communist states turned to democracies...how can one gloss over such an important fact??? ...A very good example would be East Germany vs West Germany...an era before re-uninon....I would say read about fall of berlin wall and you will get what am i saying...




> Of Course, 10 yrs is important but you are glossing over the most important aspect of opening up the economy, the people in place have to be educated and taught to have a certain mindset. Think what is China;s best interest, nation over ppl, China against everyone, etc. Some may say this parnoia but this has helped the Chinese tremendously. The sort of conditioned their ppl to ripe the benefits of Western society while retaining their own identity and looking out for their interests first and only. Planning in China and India is different and should not be compared. India still has a lot to learn.



I am not sure why is this so hard to explain??? What exactly you mean by opening the economy??? India opened her economy in 91...and china in around 80....As far as education is concerned then India is not going very bad in it...I am not saying we are doing better then China but we are not pathetic as well...As said China has got a 10 year head start...Compare our numbers with China's 10 years ago and you will somewhat comparable figures...

Of-course we have lot to learn from China...I have no doubt about it...





> We did not grow externally, but we grew internally.


What you mean by that??? What do you percieve as growth...I look at growth from the perspective of GDP and how inclusive is the growth...Simple question...Did poverty in India increased or decreased during IG period??? I am not sure if you are aware but Pakistan was growing at a higher rate then India during that time...Do you see the irony???



> Though this is not seen as an achievement, with a population of 1 billion, it turned out to be an asset. It has helped in the current recession, but to truly evolve and change for the better we have to become competitive and in order to do that, we need to open up and compete with the rest of the world. At the same time, laws and regulations have to help Indian companies like the Chinese help their own first, capitalize on our biggest resource, our ppl via edcuation (Khanacademy.com) and make them aware. Not everything in the West is good and some of the old ways in India and the world are better for the environment and personal health. Sorry I am all over the place, but its all kind of interconnected.


Dude i am just talking about IG time...This is where we started the debate...IG era was good for India or bad..My point is she have lot of bads with 71 being her only highlight.....








> I Agree I need to. Like I said Im not saying she was perfect but maybe given time, she could have corrected her wrongs.


Time???? How many years was she our PM??? For god sake she became PM for the first time in 1966...From 1966-84 she was off an on...How much more time did she need to prove herself???




> Anyhow, my biggest problem with the Congress is family dynasty politics which shows the flaw in INDIAN democracy. A truly democratic country cannot and should not have one family running the country since Independence, it shows we are a false democracy. We need to correct this and put only capable leaders forward. Look at the US, learn from our mistakes, don;t implement the same problems. 2012 elections and we don;t have any strong candidates. Indian must change, no more BS politicans like Advani, Rahul, and a host of others, you know the dinosaurs who never left and have been in politics since India got independence.



Again let's stick to the topic...Whatever you are saying is correct but a debate for another thread and another place...


----------



## EjazR

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> funny thing is, 10 unruly lightly armed kids did the same thing to the people in your financial capital


 
AK-47s _jahils _mowing down unarmed civilians on a railway platform or in a hotel is not 

"giving your enemies a beating that they will not forget even after you are long gone"

It is the height of cowardly behavior which will be a blot for not only them but from where they came.

---------- Post added at 10:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:32 AM ----------

Well if this is true, what is ironical is that the country that ostensibly "saved" Pakistan from annihilation by Indira Gandhi is not considered a bigger threat by Pakistanis than India itself. Such is the level of anti-Americanism in Pakistan.


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## Donatello

I think Indira Gandhi suffered from the same illness as Zaid Hamid.


----------



## Patriot

Our Armed Forces might be smaller then India but we have the capability to take the India down with us.I can assure you that that will happen before Pakistan goes under..all in good time of course.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

The whole idea behind nuclear weapons is 'gun to ones head - we die you die' - so if anyone needs to be blamed for this, blame those that invented the idea of 'Mutually Assured Destruction', and that certainly was not Pakistan.

Stick to the topic.


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## karan.1970

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The whole idea behind nuclear weapons is 'gun to ones head - we die you die' - so if anyone needs to be blamed for this, blame those that invented the idea of 'Mutually Assured Destruction', and that certainly was not Pakistan.
> 
> Stick to the topic.



Buddy, your brethren are not talking MAD here.. MAD refers to balancing out nuclear arsenal of 2 enemies to ensure the Assured destruction never happens.. Not whipping out the nuclear silver bullet to solve every thing from domestic violence to full scale war..


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

karan.1970 said:


> Buddy, your brethren are not talking MAD here.. MAD refers to balancing out nuclear arsenal of 2 enemies to ensure the Assured destruction never happens.. Not whipping out the nuclear silver bullet to solve every thing from domestic violence to full scale war..



MAD is precisely what they are talking about:

_Our Armed Forces might be smaller then India but we have the capability to take the India down with us.I can assure you that that will happen before Pakistan goes under..all in good time of course._

And MAD never actually occurred because both sides were willing to 'put a gun to their heads and threaten the destruction of themselves and their enemy', that is precisely what Patriot referred to here. He is certainly not arguing about trying to destroy India, and therefore invite similar destruction, unprovoked. 

His statement, and those of many others, are meant in response to Indian aggression of some kind, and therefore act as a 'deterrent' through the threat of 'MAD'.


----------



## karan.1970

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> hmmmm, wasn't one of the charges against the kasab guy "waging war against hindoostan" ?
> 
> as for my credentials, you dont need to worry about them, kid. You can just discuss the subject.



So by that logic you consider TTP folks also as soldiers who are waging war against Pakistan.. ? 

And I have no intentions to worry about your credentials or lack there of.. Its just that I believed that people who are linked to armed forces have a general respect towards men in uniform (irrespective of their flag), but hey, most Pakistani members in past have never failed to disappoint, why exepct any different now .. 

cheers uncle...

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## karan.1970

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> MAD is precisely what they are talking about:
> 
> _Our Armed Forces might be smaller then India but we have the capability to take the India down with us.I can assure you that that will happen before Pakistan goes under..all in good time of course._
> 
> And MAD never actually occurred because both sides were willing to 'put a gun to their heads and threaten the destruction of themselves and their enemy', that is precisely what Patriot referred to here. He is certainly not arguing about trying to destroy India, and therefore invite similar destruction, unprovoked.
> 
> His statement, and those of many others, are meant in response to Indian aggression of some kind, and therefore act as a 'deterrent' through the threat of 'MAD'.



MAD without a credible threshold is pretty useless in preventing the famed mutual destruction...

btw, this is also what your friend patriot said a couple days back.. So the mindset is pretty apparent. Taimi got 1 of these and deleted it but missed the one below. Given the trend of his posts, I will stick to my position about Patriot's post being on the lines of Pakistan blackmailing the world by putting a gun to its head.. You may chose to differ but unless you make a case on how making Indian cities a nuclear graveyard helps Pakistani in its tango with USA, your opinion wont carry much weight. 



Patriot said:


> Nope We will not use nukes against US America however I won't mind seeing couple dozen Indian cities as nuclear graveyard ( A very much real possibility) and according to General Aslam Beg (Retired Pakistan Army Chief) Pakistan will nuke the sh!t of India if our survival is in danger (*From any country)India will be the collateral damage*.


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## desiman

We need more leaders like Indra Gandhi, she was someone who took action rather than just sit there just like our current PM. If she was alive and remained in power, the regional mess that Pakistan has created would not have existed in the first place. She was the Iron lady of India and im sure if she remained in power for some more years she would have also executed her invasion plans as well, again which would have benefited India so much in the long run. If we had taken action then, we would not have been handicapped by the nuclear shadow that protects all the problem creators in Pakistan today. Now we are helpless in the face of an enemy that uses the ""N" word as a means to protect terrorist that it claims to be fighting in the first place.


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## Storm Force

Have to agree with desiman. 

I THINK PAKISTAN has been very fortunate that the CURRENT and recent previous leaders of INDIA have been virtual pacifists to put it mildly.

INDIA OF 2011 or the 21ST CENTURY is far more powerful far more influential country than that of 1971. On the verge of $2 trillion GDP and a very large powerful military GANDHI would have been a TRUE IRON LADY HAD SHE BEEN AROUND TODAY.

no way would have mumbai gone unanwered and certainly KARGIL would have been stretched ALOT FURTHER by the indiri gandhi regime. 

INDIA DOES NOT FLEX ITS MUSCLE ENOUGH FOR ME

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

karan.1970 said:


> MAD without a credible threshold is pretty useless in preventing the famed mutual destruction...


A 'vague' threshold keeps the other side on their toes and potentially prevents escalation and aggression that normally would fall below any 'overt and clearly stated threshold'. 


> btw, this is also what your friend patriot said a couple days back.. So the mindset is pretty apparent. Taimi got 1 of these and deleted it but missed the one below. Given the trend of his posts, I will stick to my position about Patriot's post being on the lines of Pakistan blackmailing the world by putting a gun to its head.. You may chose to differ but unless you make a case on how making Indian cities a nuclear graveyard helps Pakistani in its tango with USA, your opinion wont carry much weight.



And the caveat/qualifier in his statement is clear: *"if our survival is in danger ..."*

I don't see how his comment that you quoted negates the argument of using nuclear weapons as a deterrent by invoking MAD, or, in the case of the West, invoking the possibility of nuclear holocaust and enormous economic damage to the global, and therefore Western, economies.

As I said, complain to those who created the concept of 'deterrence and MAD', instead of cherry picking Pakistan's adoption of the same for critique.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

desiman said:


> We need more leaders like Indra Gandhi, she was someone who took action rather than just sit there just like our current PM. If she was alive and remained in power, the regional mess that Pakistan has created would not have existed in the first place. She was the Iron lady of India and im sure if she remained in power for some more years she would have also executed her invasion plans as well, again which would have benefited India so much in the long run. If we had taken action then, we would not have been handicapped by the nuclear shadow that protects all the problem creators in Pakistan today. Now we are helpless in the face of an enemy that uses the ""N" word as a means to protect terrorist that it claims to be fighting in the first place.



Alternately one could argue that Indira Gandhi, through her support for terrorists/rebels in East Pakistan, her role in pouring fuel on the fire of civil conflict in East Pakistan and therefore playing a significant role in the breakup of formerly United Pakistan, set the stage for the subsequent decades of Pakistani distrust of Indian intentions, and contributed to the current impasse. 

Alternately, if Nehru had implemented a UN conducted plebiscite, with both sides retaining control of the territory they controlled during the plebiscite, rather than resorting to legalistic semantics as excuses to avoid a plebiscite (since the very same legal semantics did not prevent Nehru/India from invading, occupying and annexing Junagadh), J&K would not still be a festering dispute and the history of relations between the two nations could be very different.


----------



## Agni5000

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Alternately one could argue that Indira Gandhi, through her support for terrorists/rebels in East Pakistan, her role in pouring fuel on the fire of civil conflict in East Pakistan and therefore playing a significant role in the breakup of formerly United Pakistan, set the stage for the subsequent decades of Pakistani distrust of Indian intentions, and contributed to the current impasse.
> 
> Alternately, if Nehru had implemented a UN conducted plebiscite, with both sides retaining control of the territory they controlled during the plebiscite, rather than resorting to legalistic semantics as excuses to avoid a plebiscite (since the very same legal semantics did not prevent Nehru/India from invading, occupying and annexing Junagadh), J&K would not still be a festering dispute and the history of relations between the two nations could be very different.



I think countless times you got the reply for plebiscite and UN resolution.

1. Why don't pakistan does the plebiscite for pakistan kashmir?


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Agni5000 said:


> I think countless times you got the reply for plebiscite and UN resolution.


Did not get any reasonable or good replies.


> 1. Why don't pakistan does the plebiscite for pakistan kashmir?


And will India then commit to allowing the UN to hold a plebiscite in IAK?


----------



## Agni5000

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Did not get any reasonable or good replies.
> 
> And will India then commit to allowing the UN to hold a plebiscite in IAK?



Pakistan should hold a plebiscite first in pakistan kashmir. After that you can tell the world that it is India's time to do.


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## KS

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Did not get any reasonable or good replies.
> 
> And *will India then commit* to allowing the UN to hold a plebiscite in IAK?


 
India will commit after 65 years of Article 370 free Jammu and Kashmir, whenever that happens 



Agni5000 said:


> Pakistan should hold a plebiscite first in pakistan kashmir. After that you can tell the world that it is India's time to do.


 
Dont worry that will not happen.

Not only that they also need to 'retrieve' the gift they had given to their goody buddies - Shaksgam Valley.

So plebiscite, not happening.

Moreover a form of Plebiscite was already conducted in 1952 when Sheik Abdullah , who was elected by the Kashmiri people, ratified the Instrument of Accession in the J&K State Assembly.It is as best as a democratic Govt can reflect the will of the people.


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## tamygu

Indira would not have invaded west Pakistan even if she wanted to.She knew like any seasoned politician that it is one thing invading far away cut off land east pakistan defended only by some 90k soldiers against full might of indian army than invading west pakistan which was defended by 5 million army + the hostile population.So in a way she was more realistic and modest about her goals than what Indians on PDF and other indian commentators made out to be.

She very well knew the result of fighting on western front so her only goal on western front was to be on defensive but not to be offensive.

And moreover it was the red-line usa to have warned about to both USSR and India thats why USSR was asking her to hurry up with her offensive on eastern front than declare ceasefire.


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## MilSpec

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Alternately one could argue that Indira Gandhi, through her support for terrorists/rebels in East Pakistan, her role in pouring fuel on the fire of civil conflict in East Pakistan and therefore playing a significant role in the breakup of formerly United Pakistan, set the stage for the subsequent decades of Pakistani distrust of Indian intentions, and contributed to the current impasse.
> 
> Alternately, if Nehru had implemented a UN conducted plebiscite, with both sides retaining control of the territory they controlled during the plebiscite, rather than resorting to legalistic semantics as excuses to avoid a plebiscite (since the very same legal semantics did not prevent Nehru/India from invading, occupying and annexing Junagadh), J&K would not still be a festering dispute and the history of relations between the two nations could be very different.



true... and very conveniently completely forget 1965 unilateral aggression on Kashmir???


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## tamygu

sandy_3126 said:


> true... and very conveniently completely forget 1965 unilateral aggression on Kashmir???


you mean to imply that in the same sense use of L-e-T and other groups as strategic assets is quite justified?


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Agni5000 said:


> Pakistan should hold a plebiscite first in pakistan kashmir. After that you can tell the world that it is India's time to do.



what an idiotic reply, especially in light of the fact that Kashmir in its *entirety* is disputed territory....

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## Agni5000

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> what an idiotic reply, especially in light of the fact that Kashmir in its *entirety* is disputed territory....



If you want India plebiscite on entire Kashmir. PA should vacate there to make it possible. When is it happening?


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## Abu Zolfiqar

compared to occupied Kashmir, it's more than even "semi automous"

they hold local elections and in fact until only recently, Pakistani mainstream political parties were not even allowed to operate in that area --one which has its own PM, legislative assembly, its own Supreme Court and a High Court....it's own local news outlets as well

militarized? well, yes. Resistance to military or Pakistan --- none......in worst case scenario -- minimal (if any). 


HUGE difference between Azad Kashmir and iOk, ground realities speak for themselves....though if you like we can continue this discussion on Kashmir in Kashmir Affairs section.

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## Agni5000

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> compared to occupied Kashmir, it's more than even "semi automous"
> 
> they hold local elections and in fact until only recently, Pakistani mainstream political parties were not even allowed to operate in that area --one which has its own PM, legislative assembly, its own Supreme Court and a High Court....it's own local news outlets as well
> 
> militarized? well, yes. Resistance to military or Pakistan --- none......in worst case scenario -- minimal (if any).
> 
> 
> HUGE difference between Azad Kashmir and iOk, ground realities speak for themselves....though if you like we can continue this discussion on Kashmir in Kashmir Affairs section.



If all this rosy, why not do plebiscite to show world?


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## Abu Zolfiqar

it would have to be carried out jointly, as Kashmir in its entirety is disputed territory between both parties

and i didnt say everything is 'rosy' on our side either....but everything here is relative.


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## indianspetsnaz

Nixon went berserk over Indias plans Indira still could have had Pakistan at Shimla but instead decided to forget about the western front thinking that some idiotic agreement would settle disputes when it did not since neither country accepted the status quo over control of Kashmir 

Indira should have just attacked under the umbrella of the Soviets because neither America or China would have fked with them over that


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## aniyan2020

duniya ka sabse gaddu desh *********


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## Thorough Pro

Any idiot can plan anything, execution is a totally different matter.


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## MilSpec

Thorough Pro said:


> Any idiot can plan anything, execution is a totally different matter.



Absolutely agree... the evident difference is FM. Manekshaw and FM Ayub Khan..... Execution is indeed a completely different matter!!!!

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## Slayer786

Now it is a waste of time to discuss what could have happened. If india was going to attack West Pakistan and did not, then it lost its chance. But no one is stopping it from trying to do it now. Lets see how much balls india has.

Very soon after 2014, Kashmir insurgency will start, so I suggest to the indians to launch a preemptive strike on Pakistan. 

We promise to be nice........

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## junaid1

Storm Force said:


> She would have eaten Musharaff for Breakfast.



How did musharraf came into this

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## Roybot

Slayer786 said:


> Now it is a waste of time to discuss what could have happened. If india was going to attack West Pakistan and did not, then it lost its chance. But no one is stopping it from trying to do it now. Lets see how much balls india has.
> 
> *Very soon after 2014, Kashmir insurgency will start, so I suggest to the indians to launch a preemptive strike on Pakistan. *
> 
> We promise to be nice........



*facepalm* 

Favorite Pakistani wet dream.

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## Infinity

Slayer786 said:


> Now it is a waste of time to discuss what could have happened. If india was going to attack West Pakistan and did not, then it lost its chance. But no one is stopping it from trying to do it now. *Lets see how much balls india has.
> 
> Very soon after 2014, Kashmir insurgency* will start, so I suggest to the indians to launch a preemptive strike on Pakistan.
> 
> We promise to be nice........



Ya then we will be sitting and scratching our balls..............................


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## RazPaK

Infinity said:


> Ya then we will be sitting and scratching our balls..............................



What balls?


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## INDIC

Slayer786 said:


> Now it is a waste of time to discuss what could have happened. If india was going to attack West Pakistan and did not, then it lost its chance. But no one is stopping it from trying to do it now. Lets see how much balls india has.
> 
> *Very soon after 2014, Kashmir insurgency will start,* so I suggest to the indians to launch a preemptive strike on Pakistan.
> 
> We promise to be nice........



Never going to happen.


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## Infinity

RazPaK said:


> What balls?



Ask Slayer786..................


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## India defense

RazPaK said:


> What balls?



Why you dont have ...


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## Umair Nawaz

Avatar said:


> *Indira Gandhi was strong and brave, not ruthless*.



I have just one word Bullsh*t.

BTW this thread proves India is our biggest enemy n is always against our Independence.


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## M.harris

poor Indira is now converted in to ashes


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## Ayush

M.harris said:


> poor Indira is now converted in to ashes



so is bhutto...so will we...


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## M.harris

Ayush said:


> so is bhutto...so will we...



we buried our dead use your brain we don't burn our dead


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## Manas

> Indira Gandhi had planned a mass invasion of Pakistan: CIA records



Had it been succcesful , @RazPaK mere ghar mein bartan maanz raha hota.  Kidding.


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## foxbat

Slayer786 said:


> Now it is a waste of time to discuss what could have happened. If india was going to attack West Pakistan and did not, then it lost its chance. But no one is stopping it from trying to do it now. Lets see how much balls india has.
> 
> Very soon after 2014, Kashmir insurgency will start, so I suggest to the indians to launch a preemptive strike on Pakistan.
> 
> We promise to be nice........



I guess you should be more interested in insurgencies that are already burning up the whole of Pakistan. You guys are already fighting a full blown war within your country with scores of your special forces getting killed only yesterday.. Your situation today is no different than what was Afghanistan's in 1980's before it fell to the Taliban.. Go and be nice to them first..


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## Ayush

M.harris said:


> we buried our dead use your brain we don't burn our dead



perhaps u didnt get the meaning..ok...


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## foxbat

M.harris said:


> we buried our dead use your brain we don't burn our dead



Ok.. so Bhutto is all decomposed etc.. Same thing

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## Hindustani

RazPaK said:


> What balls?



The ones we used to split your nation in half. Herp de derp.


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## Sedqal

Hindustani said:


> The ones we used to split your nation in half. Herp de derp.



The ones her Sikh bodyguard had


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## TheFlyingPretzel

I'm assuming all of you have yet to reach puberty. Indo-Pak wars are a thing of the past. Conventional warfare is no longer an option because of its potency to transform into a nuclear conflict (This potency was also the reason that the standoff in 2001 transpired to nothing). The purpose of war is to win decisively (as India did in 1971) and where the only winning entails total annihilation of major cities on both sides of the border (as is the case today) even the most trigger-happy warmonger has sleepless nights thinking of the butcher's list which will need to be drawn. Verbal exchanges on forums are becoming a bane to read. Goddamn kids. Grow up! Look around you. The edifice of capitalism stands on commerce and trade, not war. War will only put us back by decades, as it has to Afghanistan and the majority of central Africa.

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## Storm Force

in reply flying pretzel



> The edifice of capitalism stands on commerce and trade, not war. War
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...on-pakistan-cia-records-21.html#ixzz2QBQ1UOjm



INDIA HAS ALREADY WON THIS WAR


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## Abu Zolfiqar

A memorial should be built
























for those who put her out of her misery

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## ares

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> A memorial should be built
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> for those who put her out of her misery



Perhaps Pakistan should do it, if nothing else it will give you some burn relief.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

ares said:


> Perhaps Pakistan should do it, if nothing else it will give you some burn relief.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

ares said:


> Perhaps Pakistan should do it, if nothing else it will give you some burn relief.



More appropriate for Sikhs to do that. In symbolic terms the kirpan is a birthright


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## ares

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> More appropriate for Sikhs to do that. In symbolic terms the kirpan is a birthright



You mean Khalistanis and not sikhs.


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## Joe Shearer

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> A memorial should be built
> 
> 
> 
> for those who put her out of her misery



I have seldom seen a post in such bad taste in all these months at PDF.

Every time I think this is it, it can't get worse, some character comes along just to prove me wrong.

Exceeding this one will be difficult.

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## Kloitra

Joe Shearer said:


> I have seldom seen a post in such bad taste in all these months at PDF.
> 
> Every time I think this is it, it can't get worse, some character comes along just to prove me wrong.
> 
> Exceeding this one will be difficult.



I bet you would be eating these words!


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## Ayush

self delete


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## ares

They can't help it ..it still hurts, where she cut them.It's just their pain talking.


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## Ayush

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> A memorial should be built
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> for those who put her out of her misery


it should be done for the us marines who put osama to rest..


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## Machoman

Thats good that B!@#h died before she spread more **** in the region.


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## ares

Machoman said:


> Thats good that B!@#h died before she spread more **** in the region.



Ya, who knows, had she lived a few years longer ..Pakistan might have been reduced to, even a smaller size.


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## Machoman

ares said:


> Ya, who know, had she lived few years longer ..Pakistan might have been reduced to even a smaller size.



huh...margay marnay walay...........


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## MilSpec

Joe Shearer said:


> I have seldom seen a post in such bad taste in all these months at PDF.
> 
> Every time I think this is it, it can't get worse, some character comes along just to prove me wrong.
> 
> Exceeding this one will be difficult.



When such members are selected to be "Tink Tanks", trajectory set by their rhetoric reflects the competence of the rest of the administration....

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## Abu Zolfiqar

sandy_3126 said:


> When such members are selected to be "Tink Tanks", trajectory set by their rhetoric reflects the competence of the rest of the administration....



And then members like you who complain and whine about either the forum or its staff insist on still posting here.


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## Karachiite

This disgusting creature is hated by pretty much everyone. Sikhs hate her and will never forget the extermination their community faced due to her. America hated her too. Henry Kissinger at many times called her a ****** and a witch. Anyways glad she died a dog's death.


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## M.harris

DEAD LIKE A *****


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## scrumpy

Karachiite said:


> This disgusting creature is hated by pretty much everyone. Sikhs hate her and will never forget the extermination their community faced due to her.* America hated her too. Henry Kissinger at many times called her a ****** and a witch. *Anyways glad she died a dog's death.



BBC NEWS | South Asia | Kissinger regrets India comments


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## Karachiite

scrumpy said:


> BBC NEWS | South Asia | Kissinger regrets India comments



Lol so? He still said those words to her and meant it, doesn't matter if he regrets it decades later.


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## priti

indira gandhi the greatest woman that ever walked the earth. true inspiration. US was not our friend at that time. and if our enemy says bad things about us then we are on the right track. If our enemy says good things about us then we are on the wrong track.
so if pakistanis say indira (a dead lady) all kinds of things then it just shows what a great woman she was. and of course how crass they are by making comments on IG (PBUH)
if she had been alive today, US would not have stopped cutting up of Pakistan into many many pieces and world would not be seeing terrorism. But hey, we have a new male avatar to do that soon.


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## A1Kaid

Had she done that the United States was ready to nuke Indian multiple times over, no Russian deterrence would have stopped the US; considering Richard Nixon was President at the time. Though the old witch got what she deserved killed by her own bodyguard, a rotten death.


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## Kompromat

priti said:


> indira gandhi the greatest woman that ever walked the earth. true inspiration. US was not our friend at that time. and if our enemy says bad things about us then we are on the right track. If our enemy says good things about us then we are on the wrong track.
> so if pakistanis say indira (a dead lady) all kinds of things then it just shows what a great woman she was. and of course how crass they are by making comments on IG (PBUH)
> if she had been alive today, US would not have stopped *cutting up of Pakistan into many many pieces* and world would not be seeing terrorism. *But hey, we have a new male avatar to do that soon*.



We'll make sure his "chita" is radioactive


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## priti

Aeronaut said:


> We'll make sure his "chita" is radioactive



as long its in the middle of a mass grave holding 180 million I think its ok.



A1Kaid said:


> Had she done that the United States was ready to nuke Indian multiple times over, no Russian deterrence would have stopped the US; considering Richard Nixon was President at the time. Though the old witch got what she deserved killed by her own bodyguard, a rotten death.


great people in the world ssassinated.. lincoln , gandhi, kennedy, MLK, IG.


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## A1Kaid

priti said:


> as long its in the middle of a mass grave holding 180 million I think its ok.
> 
> 
> *great people in the world ssassinated.. lincoln , gandhi, kennedy, MLK, IG.*




True many great historical figures have been assassinated, but not by their own bodyguards those entrusted to guard her life at all cost, it is a turn of the hand.


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## Kompromat

priti said:


> as long its in the middle of a mass grave holding 180 million I think its ok.
> 
> 
> great people in the world ssassinated.. lincoln , gandhi, kennedy, MLK, IG.



Plus a billion hindostanis as a starter


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## priti

A1Kaid said:


> True many great historical figures have been assassinated, but not by their own bodyguards those entrusted to guard her life at all cost, it is a turn of the hand.



it shows betrayal of trust , thats all. it just shows how brve she was and that her intentions were true.



Aeronaut said:


> Plus a billion hindostanis as a starter


 this is not a restaurant order where you tell your wishes as an afterthought.


----------



## MilSpec

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> And then members like you who complain and whine about either the forum or its staff insist on still posting here.



Building of constructive narrative needs to continue, despite impediments in administration and narrow views of the administrators. Think tanks imho are supposed to think out of the box and bring constructive narrative to the discussion. When I joined the forum, I did'nt find much of a difference between razpak and you, all you guys bring to a discussion is Indian toilets, Indian poverty, our skin color, or call us names like *** headed gooks and similar. being and internet tough guy/racist/bigot only displays the moral bankruptcy and nothing else. But I did see some filters in your language since you became the member of the staff....All I am asking is you to remain civil in a discussion, thats it!


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## Owner

.......................


She was Real Diva , One of the Most Influential of last century and definitely most influential Female politician of last century.


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## Slayer786

Infinity said:


> Ya then we will be sitting and scratching our balls..............................



Sheesh!!!! Disgusting habit. I hope u wash your hands before eating, but knowing how dirty u indians are, probably not. But really Indira blew her chance, now it is too late to regret it. 

Just come and attack us now, because there will be trouble brewing in Indian Occupied kashmir, very soon. Already the taliban have left signs indicating that they are there. So be prepared. Giving u all a fair warning. And u guys claim that we are not nice.

How rude..........


----------



## Sedqal

priti said:


> indira gandhi the greatest woman that ever walked the earth. true inspiration. US was not our friend at that time. and if our enemy says bad things about us then we are on the right track. If our enemy says good things about us then we are on the wrong track.
> so if pakistanis say indira (a dead lady) all kinds of things then it just shows what a great woman she was. and of course how crass they are by making comments on IG (PBUH)
> if she had been alive today, US would not have stopped cutting up of Pakistan into many many pieces and world would not be seeing terrorism. But hey, we have a new male avatar to do that soon.



By the same token when Indians call Jinnah names it must mean Jinnah was on the right track, right?  And when they call Pakistan Army names then PA must be doing something right


----------



## RajputWarrior

Sedqal said:


> By the same token when Indians call Jinnah names it must mean Jinnah was on the right track, right?  And when they call Pakistan Army names then PA must be doing something right



I actually thank Jinnah. If it wasn't for he and Gandhi, India wouldn't be where it stands today


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## Sedqal

RajputWarrior said:


> I actually thank Jinnah. If it wasn't for he and Gandhi, India wouldn't be where it stands today



We actually agree on something


----------



## Icewolf

Thats a joke.

India was already suffering from China harassment.

We would have seen the fireworks up close if she had invaded Pakistan...

One inch of Pakistan the Indians would not be able to step into without licking the dust...


----------



## Icewolf

RajputWarrior said:


> Right..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and I think Bangladesh speaks for itself



Putting this up, you are disprecting the thousands of Indian soldiers who had to run back to Amritsar after tasting dust by artillery strikes.

Poor guys. Even on the path to Amritsar, Pakistan Army was still pounding them.

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## bronxbull

Sedqal said:


> By the same token when Indians call Jinnah names it must mean Jinnah was on the right track, right?  And when they call Pakistan Army names then PA must be doing something right



what r u saying?

I praise him to no end for making our dream come true,his ego did what we couldn't in a thousand years


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## Nisha

Omar1984 said:


> Benazir Bhutto was educated in Oxford and Harvard. She was a very intelligent woman and she was beautiful.
> 
> She had good intentions but she married a very corrupt and uneducated man, which wasn't her fault, she wanted to honor her mother's wishes. Because of her mother's choice, we are suffering today. Zardari is President only because he was the husband of Benazir Bhutto.





Benzair Bhutto was the daughter of the elite. Her acceptance into Oxford and Harvard was based on her family position. this is the same for many of the elite whose children attend such institutions....


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## Umair Nawaz

Nisha said:


> Benzair Bhutto was the daughter of the elite. Her acceptance into Oxford and Harvard was based on her family position. this is the same for many of the elite whose children attend such institutions....



and yr point is?


----------



## Nisha

Umair Nawaz said:


> and yr point is?





The point is when ppl talk about how smart such folks are, they seriously need to get their mind checked. Many of them are world class idiots who never studied hard.


----------



## Nisha

Umair Nawaz said:


> and yr point is?





The point is when ppl talk about how smart such folks are, they seriously need to get their mind checked. Many of them are world class idiots who never studied hard.



Umair Nawaz said:


> and yr point is?





The point is when ppl talk about how smart such folks are, they seriously need to get their mind checked. Many of them are world class idiots who never studied hard.


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## Umair Nawaz

Nisha said:


> The point is when ppl talk about how smart such folks are, they seriously need to get their mind checked. Many of them are world class idiots who never studied hard.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The point is when ppl talk about how smart such folks are, they seriously need to get their mind checked. *Many of them are world class idiots who never studied hard*.



And who is judging them

a person named nisha, who seemed most enlighten human of all time


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## Nisha

Umair Nawaz said:


> And who is judging them
> 
> a person named nisha, who seemed most enlighten human of all time




I don't understand what is so funny? This is not just a **** issue. It;s an issue that affect everyone in the world. The children of the elite get seats into prestigous educational institutions taking opportunities from those who actually earned it.


----------



## Umair Nawaz

Nisha said:


> I don't understand what is so funny? This is not just a **** issue. It;s an issue that affect everyone in the world. The children of the elite get seats into prestigous educational institutions taking opportunities from those who actually earned it.



Thats because the system of these majority of nations is based on capitalism.

Where a small group of people have all the authority over law, state affairs, resources, education and wealth.

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## Slayer786

bronxbull said:


> what r u saying?
> 
> I praise him to no end for making our dream come true,his ego did *what we couldn't in a thousand years*



It must be galling to accept that we ruled over you guys for a 1000 years. In that time we won many victories over you. You only have 1971 and that too because of the bengalis insurrection.


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## bronxbull

Ya but the one that laughs in the end laughs loudest.past counts for nothing.we made even the moths reject Pakistan.


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## NP-complete

Invasions are beyond south asian armies. They dont have the required military skill. Indian involvement in east pakistan dont count as invasion because locals were supporting them. They couldnt have invaded west pakistan with the whole population resisting them. Invasion requires out manuvering of enemy forces and their quick destruction. Then quick occupation of his vital areas. Hence the name "lighting war". Even now indian army cant take the strain this kind of hyper mobile warfare puts on a war machine. The same reason is why pakistan cant "invade" its tribal areas.
Indra was most likely advised to drop the plan (if it did exist in the first place) by advisors thinking along the same lines.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

NP-complete said:


> Invasions are beyond south asian armies. They dont have the required military skill. Indian involvement in east pakistan dont count as invasion because locals were supporting them.


 
fair enough and Pakistani moral and other support to Kashmiri freedom fighters is not invasion either...good, we see eye to eye on this issue then




> They couldnt have invaded west pakistan with the whole population resisting them. Invasion requires out manuvering of enemy forces and their quick destruction.


 
in india's case they just took in floods of refugees (promoted an influx of hindu refugees especially) -- armed em trained em and sent em back to fight....india certainly meddled in the affairs and partook in what would today be labelled "terrorist support" in the interests of freeing BD from Pakistan. BD was an issue from the very beginnign and in hindsight it should've been independent from the very beginning.





> Then quick occupation of his vital areas. Hence the name "lighting war". Even now indian army cant take the strain this kind of hyper mobile warfare puts on a war machine. The same reason is why pakistan cant "invade" its tribal areas.
> Indra was most likely advised to drop the plan (if it did exist in the first place) by advisors thinking along the same lines.


 
you conveniently forget that apart from local militias (which work under the directives of the political agents in each tribal area) -- there is also FC apart from regular army and they draw a sizable % of their manpower from KPK and FATA region.

if FATA were perceived as "invaded" then the locals would not cooperate and provide intel to the military/security forces who are busy blowing up terrorist hideouts at the moment

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## Jackdaws

A mass invasion? As opposed to what? A mini-invasion on the border areas? That is not an invasion.



somebozo said:


> Well the show is out for the whole world to see what Pakistan did with Indian allies they were blindly riding. Indian ambitions for past 63 years have been total anhillation of Pakistan because they cannot beat down anyone into submission as long Pakistan sticks like a thorn in their policies. Imagine with no Pakistan all the small south asian countries like Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Nepal, Bhutan and Kashmir will not dare oppose a word against India.
> 
> 
> 
> Back then the United States was popular due to its fair play policy and Soviets were the evil repressive forces. Its clear to see that they did not jump to protect Pakistan for its mistakes. Yes East-Pakistan was being repressed and yes they launched a rebellion and this was all internal matter of Pakistan. The Americans did not approve of Pakistani attrocities or took sides no matter how strong the alliance was. However the words in bold are ironic as America is totally doing the opposite right now. Invading Iraq and Afghanistan to install democracy.




LOL - yes - the Banglas against whom you committed genocide, the Lankans whose cricketers you shot at, Nepal - a predominantly Hindu nation - a religion which your texts demonize and the peace-loving Bhutanese see you as the savior of South Asia. While you are at it, why not add Papua New Guinea to that list too? Then you can pass the peace pipe to me.

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## bolo

Storm Force said:


> This women Ghandi had real balls.
> 
> She annexed East Pakistan in 12 days capturing 100,000 Pakistani Soldiers.
> 
> She took on the Sikhs Sant Bhindrawala *Which ultimately cost her life*.
> 
> *She didn,t cow down to Kissenger and the Americans*.
> 
> She would have eaten Musharaff for Breakfast.
> 
> SHE REALLY WAS AN IRON LADY
> 
> " Could you imagine Todays powerful India " with a leader like Indra Ghandi. rather than mild mannered Dr Mohan Singh


 She didn,t cow down to Kissenger and the Americans, which ultimately cost her life.


----------



## PlanetWarrior

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> fair enough and Pakistani moral and other support to Kashmiri freedom fighters is not invasion either...good, we see eye to eye on this issue then
> 
> 
> 
> 
> in india's case they just took in floods of refugees (promoted an influx of hindu refugees especially) -- armed em trained em and sent em back to fight....india certainly meddled in the affairs and partook in what would today be labelled "terrorist support" in the interests of freeing BD from Pakistan. BD was an issue from the very beginnign and in hindsight it should've been independent from the very beginning.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you conveniently forget that apart from local militias (which work under the directives of the political agents in each tribal area) -- there is also FC apart from regular army and they draw a sizable % of their manpower from KPK and FATA region.
> 
> if FATA were perceived as "invaded" then the locals would not cooperate and provide intel to the military/security forces who are busy blowing up terrorist hideouts at the moment



1. Kashmiris aren't flooding across Pakistan's borders seeking refuge from India.
2. From internet reports which I read, the Pakistani military was reeking havoc in East Pakistan. Even if India did arm the insurgents, credit needs to be given to the Pakistani military and political leadership for opening that door of opportunity for India. The claim is that you guys treated Bangladesh as an inferior colony of Pakistan. Agreed that the logistics of an East and West Pakistan did not make it a feasible idea. That still doesn't address the claims of the Bangladeshi that Pakistan was ruthless in its administration of that area.
3. Who knows what history will record in 20 years time. The possibility of it being recorded that the FATA area was subject to a civil war after which the inhabitants were liberated exists. After all, it is usually the victors who write history

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Jackdaws said:


> LOL - yes - the Banglas against whom you committed genocide


 
there was no genocide....Pakistan only killed mukti bahini rogues and those who facilitated them



> the Lankans whose cricketers you shot at,


 
the same Lankans who agreed that despite the setback they will come back to Pakistan to play when invited; the same ones who know that it was india that had a hand behind the attacks b/c of Pakistan's open support to SL military in its war against terrorist tamil elements



> Nepal - a predominantly Hindu nation - a religion which your texts demonize and the peace-loving Bhutanese see you as the savior of South Asia


 
Pakistan has good relations with Nepalese (wasnt the case earlier) and the reason for Nepal trying to get closer to Pakistan (and China) is to counter against indian hegemony. Nepalese are very bitter about india's negative influence on their country. Dont take my word for it, research yourself.


so the pot shouldnt call the kettle black. We've done much more for our neighbours than you have....just ask an honest Afghan who are given Pakistani identity cards, allowed to work without work permits and in fact in many cases are provided with free or near free housing (not to be confused with the refugee camps which we are pocketing a good expense from that)



bolo said:


> She didn,t cow down to Kissenger and the Americans, which ultimately cost her life.


 
all it took was a few nationalistic Sikhs to get the job done right 

waste of bullets though...should've used the holy kirpan instead



PlanetWarrior said:


> 1. Kashmiris aren't flooding across Pakistan's borders seeking refuge from India.


 
Kashmiris are already integrated into Pakistani society; hell even our prime minister is of Kashmiri origin. There's no need for flooding of any kind. Those who have family on both sides of the border find ways to reunite with eachother. Regular families as well as those affiliated with freedom fighters and/or the liberation movement.




> 2. From internet reports which I read, the Pakistani military was reeking havoc in East Pakistan. Even if India did arm the insurgents, credit needs to be given to the Pakistani military and political leadership for opening that door of opportunity for India.


 
I agree generally.

But actually it was just the political leadership that added fuel to the fire. The military only intervened when india's military became involved and they did so rightfully. Field Marsh. Y. Khan was for peace talks with that guy mujib



> The claim is that you guys treated Bangladesh as an inferior colony of Pakistan. Agreed that the logistics of an East and West Pakistan did not make it a feasible idea. That still doesn't address the claims of the Bangladeshi that Pakistan was ruthless in its administration of that area.


 
there certainly was mistreatment and misallocation of resources but then again the "resentment" also came about as a result of lackluster rescue and relief missions for cylcone victims -- the Center's reaction to it was slow and inefficient and it only helped fuel resentment...just blaming the military is a typical reaction - but not a well founded one




> 3. Who knows what history will record in 20 years time. The possibility of it being recorded that the FATA area was subject to a civil war after which the inhabitants were liberated exists. After all, it is usually the victors who write history


 
as i belong to that region and know a great deal about it i can assure you that if FATA were in a civil war it would be more so b/c of tribal infighting. There have been no insurrections by people of FATA against any province or the Center (i.e. Pak govt). There certainly is conflict in the region but it is not civil war.

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## hari sud

Indira Gandhi's reluctance in 1971 resulted in continued Pakistani occupation of Kashmir and now terror activities in rest of India.


----------



## Shadow_Hunter

Slayer786 said:


> It must be galling to accept that we ruled over you guys for a 1000 years. In that time we won many victories over you. You only have 1971 and that too because of the bengalis insurrection.



Yes kindly point me to a book which describes the time when pakistanis ruled over Indians, that too for a thousand years.

Oh wait, you can't, you are simply a pathetic liar, nothing more

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## Guynextdoor2

somebozo said:


> Well the show is out for the whole world to see what Pakistan did with Indian allies they were blindly riding. Indian ambitions for past 63 years have been total anhillation of Pakistan because they cannot beat down anyone into submission as long Pakistan sticks like a thorn in their policies. Imagine with no Pakistan all the small south asian countries like Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Nepal, Bhutan and Kashmir will not dare oppose a word against India.
> 
> 
> 
> Back then the United States was popular due to its fair play policy and Soviets were the evil repressive forces. Its clear to see that they did not jump to protect Pakistan for its mistakes. Yes East-Pakistan was being repressed and yes they launched a rebellion and this was all internal matter of Pakistan. The Americans did not approve of Pakistani attrocities or took sides no matter how strong the alliance was. However the words in bold are ironic as America is totally doing the opposite right now. Invading Iraq and Afghanistan to install democracy.


 
Nixon...fair play....now I've heard everything


----------



## Jackdaws

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> there was no genocide....Pakistan only killed mukti bahini rogues and those who facilitated them
> 
> 
> 
> the same Lankans who agreed that despite the setback they will come back to Pakistan to play when invited; the same ones who know that it was india that had a hand behind the attacks b/c of Pakistan's open support to SL military in its war against terrorist tamil elements
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan has good relations with Nepalese (wasnt the case earlier) and the reason for Nepal trying to get closer to Pakistan (and China) is to counter against indian hegemony. Nepalese are very bitter about india's negative influence on their country. Dont take my word for it, research yourself.
> 
> 
> so the pot shouldnt call the kettle black. We've done much more for our neighbours than you have....just ask an honest Afghan who are given Pakistani identity cards, allowed to work without work permits and in fact in many cases are provided with free or near free housing (not to be confused with the refugee camps which we are pocketing a good expense from that)
> 
> 
> 
> all it took was a few nationalistic Sikhs to get the job done right
> 
> waste of bullets though...should've used the holy kirpan instead
> 
> 
> 
> Kashmiris are already integrated into Pakistani society; hell even our prime minister is of Kashmiri origin. There's no need for flooding of any kind. Those who have family on both sides of the border find ways to reunite with eachother. Regular families as well as those affiliated with freedom fighters and/or the liberation movement.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree generally.
> 
> But actually it was just the political leadership that added fuel to the fire. The military only intervened when india's military became involved and they did so rightfully. Field Marsh. Y. Khan was for peace talks with that guy mujib
> 
> 
> 
> there certainly was mistreatment and misallocation of resources but then again the "resentment" also came about as a result of lackluster rescue and relief missions for cylcone victims -- the Center's reaction to it was slow and inefficient and it only helped fuel resentment...just blaming the military is a typical reaction - but not a well founded one
> 
> 
> 
> 
> as i belong to that region and know a great deal about it i can assure you that if FATA were in a civil war it would be more so b/c of tribal infighting. There have been no insurrections by people of FATA against any province or the Center (i.e. Pak govt). There certainly is conflict in the region but it is not civil war.




a. Yes, sure - Operation Searchlight in erstwhile East Pakistan is a figment of the world's imagination. Or the Blood Telegram sent by American diplomats. Or mass graves. 

b. So did the Lankans tour Pakistan again? 

c. Nepal - LOL. Look at this Gallup poll in Nepal. Nepalese See Pakistan as South Asia's Greatest Security Threat 
28% of Nepal considers you a threat to South Asia. 

No one in South Asia considers Pakistan as their "savior". They do consider India to be a bully but they deal with it on their own.


----------



## SHAMK9

Jackdaws said:


> a. Yes, sure - Operation Searchlight in erstwhile East Pakistan is a figment of the world's imagination. Or the Blood Telegram sent by American diplomats. Or mass graves.
> 
> b. So did the Lankans tour Pakistan again?
> 
> c. Nepal - LOL. Look at this Gallup poll in Nepal. Nepalese See Pakistan as South Asia's Greatest Security Threat
> 28% of Nepal considers you a threat to South Asia.
> 
> No one in South Asia considers Pakistan as their "savior". They do consider India to be a bully but they deal with it on their own.


No one here claims that Pakistan is considered a saviour but had Pakistan not existed, India's neighbouring countries would have lived under fear.


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## Jackdaws

SHAMK9 said:


> No one here claims that Pakistan is considered a saviour but had Pakistan not existed, India's neighbouring countries would have lived under fear.


 
How so? That doesn't make an iota of sense.


----------



## Jackdaws

SHAMK9 said:


> No one here claims that Pakistan is considered a saviour but had Pakistan not existed, India's neighbouring countries would have lived under fear.


 
How so? That doesn't make an iota of sense.


----------



## HariPrasad

This lady was brave and deserves respect.


----------



## Slayer786

Shadow_Hunter said:


> Yes kindly point me to a book which describes the time when pakistanis ruled over Indians, that too for a thousand years.
> 
> Oh wait, you can't, you are simply a pathetic liar, nothing more




Lol. I think you guys like to forget the 1000 years of humiliation. Very understandable. It must be so infuriating to be reminded though.

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## Shadow_Hunter

Slayer786 said:


> Lol. I think you guys like to forget the 1000 years of humiliation. Very understandable. It must be so infuriating to be reminded though.



Yes I am burning with infuriation while typing this on my laptop with 24 hr electricity with 1 mpbs wifi. While dear pakistanis are still to get rid of loadshedding and and 3g auctions in their country. The only export of your country is terrorism and I am the one who should feel infuriated. Right.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Jackdaws said:


> a. Yes, sure - Operation Searchlight in erstwhile East Pakistan is a figment of the world's imagination. Or the Blood Telegram sent by American diplomats. Or mass graves.



it was an operation to combat against what were perceived as anti-state terrorists, bandits and saboteurs....




> b. So did the Lankans tour Pakistan again?



no b/c the ICC with its stereotypical anti-Pakistan agenda has not given the country a clean chit yet even though ironically Bangla Desh saw mass insurrections and violence and unrest when that iron-fisted indian puppet of a woman (hasina) won her fraudulent (s)election and even then the ICC didn't blink an eye (me personally i'm glad that Bdesh didnt get affected)

to answer your question, no they haven't but

'Sri Lanka can tour Pakistan if security guaranteed' - DAWN.COM




> c. Nepal - LOL. Look at this Gallup poll in Nepal. Nepalese See Pakistan as South Asia's Greatest Security Threat
> 28% of Nepal considers you a threat to South Asia.



and a higher percent of Nepalese view india as a DIRECT threat to Nepal alone and that is why they are cozying up to the Chinese (as are Sri Lankans as well)




> No one in South Asia considers Pakistan as their "savior". They do consider India to be a bully but they deal with it on their own.



only difference is - some of them allow themselves to be bullied by india; whereas we do not. and india knows they can't bully or push Pakistan to bend to its wishes, nor will they ever be able to

so in that sense we are too proud to care a damn about what other S. Asian countries think


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## Foot12

Slayer786 said:


> Lol. I think you guys like to forget the 1000 years of humiliation. Very understandable. It must be so infuriating to be reminded though.


Don't be ridiculous.
Yes its true that Pakistan and Afghanistan were ruled for more than thousand years by foreign invaders like Greeks, Huns
Arabs, Persians, Turks and Mongols. But dont confuse **** history with Indian history.

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## SHAMK9

Was it before or after she decided to massacre sikhs?


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## pakdefender

shastri tried and went to hell , indra went to hell even before she gave it a try ... hahaha epic india fail as usual


----------



## Slayer786

Foot12 said:


> Don't be ridiculous.
> Yes its true that Pakistan and Afghanistan were ruled for more than thousand years by foreign invaders like Greeks, Huns
> Arabs, Persians, Turks and Mongols. But dont confuse **** history with Indian history.



LOL. Wow! I believe you forgot to mention the glorious muslim rule over India.



> *Islamic conquest of India bloodiest in the history*
> 
> Will Durant, the famous historian summed it up like this:
> "The Islamic *conquest of India* is probably the* bloodiest story in history.* It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex of order and freedom, culture and peace, can at any moment be overthrown by barbarians invading from without or multiplying within."
> 
> Koenraad Elst , the german historian writes in "Negation in India"
> The Muslim conquests, down to the 16th century, were for the *Hindus a pure struggle of life and death*. *Entire cities were burnt down and the populations massacred, with hundreds of thousands killed in every campaign, and similar numbers deported as slaves. Every new invader made (often literally) his hills of Hindus skulls.* Thus, the conquest of Afghanistan in the year 1000 was followed by the *annihilation of the Hindu population; the region is still called the Hindu Kush, i.e. Hindu slaughter*. The Bahmani sultans (1347-1480) in central India made it a rule to *kill 100,000 captives in a single day, *and many more on other occasions. The conquest of the Vijayanagar empire in 1564 left the capital plus large areas of* Karnataka depopulated.* And so on.
> 
> Source:© 1968-2014 Daniel Pipes


----------



## Foot12

Slayer786 said:


> LOL. Wow! I believe you forgot to mention the glorious muslim rule over India.


He he
Yes the Arab and Turkic conquest of Afghanistan and Pakistan was indeed bloody.
Its hilarious that Pakis and Afghans still use the writing system of their former masters the Arabs.


----------



## Slayer786

Shadow_Hunter said:


> Yes I am burning with infuriation while typing this on my laptop with 24 hr electricity with 1 mpbs wifi. While dear pakistanis are still to get rid of loadshedding and and 3g auctions in their country. The only export of your country is terrorism and I am the one who should feel infuriated. Right.



HAIIIH! And I thought Pakistan's chief exports consist of rice, mangoes, oranges, cotton fibers, cement, tiles, marble, furniture, sporting goods, cutlery, surgical and medical appliances, carpets and rugs, wheat, seafood, chicken, and occasionally defense equipments.
*Main export partners are: United States (15 percent of total exports), United Arab Emirates (10 percent), Afghanistan (9.5 percent), China (9 percent), United Kingdom (3 percent) and Germany (2 percent).*



> Duty-free textile exports to 27 EU countries allowed till 2017
> 
> *ISLAMABAD: The European Union has granted the much-awaited duty free market access under the Generalized System of Preference (GSP)+ to Pakistan which will enable Islamabad to export textile goods to 27 European countries till 2017.
> “Yes, the EU has granted the GSP Plus to Pakistan which will increase our exports by $2 billion per annum,” Minister for Finance Ishaq Dar said while talking to reporters here on Thursday.*





> *Pakistan's Import and Export Indicators and Statistics at a Glance (2010)
> Total value of exports: US$20.29 billion
> 
> Primary exports - commodities: textiles (garments, bed linen, cotton cloth, yarn), circe, leather goods, sports goods, chemicals, manufactures, carpets and rugs
> 
> Primary export partners: US (15.87 percent of total valor of exports), UAE (12.35 percent), Afghanistan (8.48 percent), UK (4.7 percent), China (4.44 percent).*



And yes we do export terrorism but only to India as do you export terrorism to Pakistan. So tit for tat.




Foot12 said:


> He he
> Yes the Arab and Turkic conquest of Afghanistan and Pakistan was indeed bloody.
> Its hilarious that Pakis and Afghans still use the writing system of their former masters the Arabs.



LOL. And u forgot that we the muslims were your masters in India. Tck! Tck! such a short memory. But when the memory is so painful it is understandable to try to forget it.

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## MarshalGhazi

Good Info


----------



## majesticpankaj

*Indira Gandhi planned a mass invasion of Pakistan but pakistan surrendered *

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## Irfan Baloch

majesticpankaj said:


> *Indira Gandhi planned a mass invasion of Pakistan but pakistan surrendered *




but a Sikh bodyguard invaded her body with multiple bullets lol









@waz @BATMAN @batmannow please forgive me I cant find a better picture

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## waz

Irfan Baloch said:


> but a Sikh bodyguard invaded her body with multiple bullets lol
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @waz @BATMAN @batmannow please forgive me I cant find a better picture



Nixon did say she was going to pay, who would have thought it was through the hands that once swore to defend her. How the mighty fell.

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## batmannow

waz said:


> Nixon did say she was going to pay, who would have thought it was through the hands that once swore to defend her. How the mighty fell.


we told her, we warraned her?



Irfan Baloch said:


> but a Sikh bodyguard invaded her body with multiple bullets lol
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @waz @BATMAN @batmannow please forgive me I cant find a better picture


guss thats enough, its working at least?lolzz


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## BATMAN

Irfan Baloch said:


> but a Sikh bodyguard invaded her body with multiple bullets lol
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @waz @BATMAN @batmannow please forgive me I cant find a better picture



She was very ambitious lady, no doubt she may have like to put Pakistan army to test, while she is still living.
I wonder if US had any role in this murder! as at this point in time, US had very different plans, and estimates, than her. and as we already know, that US knew all about her intentions, muchmore deeply than Pakistan.

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## waz

BATMAN said:


> She was very ambitious lady, no doubt she may have like to put Pakistan army to test, while she is still living.
> I wonder if US had any role in this murder! as at this point in time, US had very different plans, and estimates, than her. and as we already know, that US knew all about her intentions, muchmore deeply than Pakistan.



I don't think the US had anything to do with it. She was a victim of her own folly and to be honest inflated ego.

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## Joe Shearer

BATMAN said:


> She was very ambitious lady, no doubt she may have like to put Pakistan army to test, while she is still living.
> I wonder if US had any role in this murder! as at this point in time, US had very different plans, and estimates, than her. and as we already know, that US knew all about her intentions, muchmore deeply than Pakistan.



'Ambitious' might not be the right word.

She had strong political convictions, and a sense of destiny. She quite obviously believed that she was the best person to lead India. At that point, where she was the national leader, what 'ambition' might she have had?

It is also unlikely that she wanted to put the Pakistan Army to the test. India has always been strategically conservative. Nehru's utter dementia and waywardness was an aberration. Indira Gandhi herself was content to keep a hostile neighbour off-balance, but there is no evidence whatsoever that the events of 1971 were the result of a long-conceived plan of the Indian leadership. Instead, it makes much more sense, from reading the memoirs of various politicians of the time, as well as of other evidence, that there was innate hostility, there was a difficult refugee situation, there was a very strong popular sentiment primarily located in West Bengal against Pakistan and an obvious opportunity to put all these into line and make something of it. Brilliant opportunism, rather than a planned attack, in other words. 

US involvement is unlikely. She fell victim to what she started. Giani Zail Singh's involvement in setting up and encouraging Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale is well known. An attempt to neutralise Akali Dal influence in the Punjab by setting up a fanatical religious stooge backfired very, very badly.

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## chhota bheem

Indira Gandhi,one and only leader from subcontinent who reminds of a strong leader,though i dont agree with some of the things she did,but she is the one leader who has what we call balls of steel.

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## Joe Shearer

chhota bheem said:


> Indira Gandhi,one and only leader from subcontinent who reminds of a strong leader,though i dont agree with some of the things she did,but she is the one leader who has what we call balls of steel.



LOL.

What an elegant turn of phrase!

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## A Town

She is the only individual from the Nehru/Gandhi clan that I have any respect for. Although I only have a little respect.
Her treatment of Sikhs was appaling and she was essentially isolating an important community in our land, this led to her demise. However she was a strong leader and incredibly ambitious.


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## Joe Shearer

Ganga said:


> A minister of Indira Gandhi's cabinet betrayed India's "war objectives" to the Central Intelligence Agency in December 1971, causing an abrupt end to the Bangladesh war under vicious US armtwisting.
> 
> This is the highlight of the book CIA's Eye on South Asia by journalist Anuj Dhar. Published by Delhi-based Manas Publications, which is facing government's ire for coming out with a book on the R&AW, the book compiles declassified CIA records on India and her neighbours. It specifically spotlights what arguably has been India's biggest spy scandal.
> 
> In the run up to the 1971 India Pakistan war over what was then East Pakistan (now Bangladesh), The New York Times first hinted at the presence of a CIA operative in the Indian government. By December The Washington Post had reported that US President Richard Nixon's South Asia policy was being guided by "reports from a source close to Mrs. Gandhi."
> 
> Records and telecons declassified recently - but not properly explained up till now - show that a dramatic turnaround came on December 6 when a CIA operative, whom Dhar pins down as a minister of the Indira Cabinet, leaked out India's "war objectives" to the agency. *Prime Minister Gandhi told Union Cabinet that apart from liberating Bangladesh, India intended to take over a strategically important part of the Pakistan Occupied Kashmir and go for the total annihilation of Pakistan's armed forces so that Pakistan "never attempts to challenge India in the future."
> *
> When he came to know of the CIA report, a furious Nixon blurted out that "this woman [Indira Gandhi] suckered us," thinking that Mrs. Gandhi had promised him that India won't attack East Pakistan - not to speak of targeting West Pakistan and ***. "But let me tell you, she's going to pay," he told his National Security Advisor Dr Henry Kissinger even as he tried to leak out the CIA report to give her bad press.
> 
> The CIA went on assess that fulfillment of India's "war objectives" might lead to "the emergence of centrifugal forces which could shatter West Pakistan into as many as three or four separate countries."
> 
> As a direct result of the operative's information, the Nixon administration went on an overdrive to save West Pakistan from a massive Indian assault. Because the President felt that "international morality will be finished - the United Nations will be finished - if you adopt the principle that because a country is democratic and big it can do what the hell it pleases."
> 
> Nixon personally threatened the USSR with a "major confrontation" between the superpowers should the Soviets failed to stop the Indians from going into West Pakistan. Kissinger secretly met Chinese Permanent Representative at the UN to apprise him of the CIA operative's report and rub in that what India was planning to do with Pakistan with the Soviet backing could turn out to be a "dress rehearsal" of what they might do to China.
> 
> Dhar quotes in the book the official records showing that USSR's First Deputy Foreign Minister Vasily Kuznetsov visited Delhi after Nixon's threat and told the "Indians to confine their objectives to East Pakistan" and "not to try and take any part of West Pakistan, including Azad Kashmir" as "Moscow was concerned about the possibility of a great power confrontation over the subcontinent." Kuznetsov also extracted a guarantee from Prime Minister Gandhi that India will not attack West Pakistan. This decision was promptly conveyed to Nixon. On 16 December 1971 when Nixon was told that India had declared a ceasefire, he exulted: "We have made it it's the Russians working for us.*" Kissinger congratulated him for saving West Pakistan - India's main target, as per the operative's report to the CIA.*
> 
> Dhar repudiates recent assertion by a former Indian Navy chief that showing up of America's biggest nuclear powered carrier into the Bay of Bengal during the war had something to do with the accidental destruction of a US plane in Dhaka during an Indian strafing. "Declassified records make it unambiguously clear that the month-long show of strength by the USS Enterprise and accompanying flotilla was a byproduct of the CIA operative's reports," he writes, reproducing chunks from official records detailing how Nixon ordered a naval task force towards the subcontinent to "scare off" India from attacking West Pakistan.
> 
> In subsequent years, former Prime Minister Morarji Desai, and two deputy PMs - Jagjivan Ram and Y B Chavan - were alleged to be the CIA operative active during the 1971 war. However, all such charges lacked any substantiation because there was no confirmation whether or not such an operative ever existed. As such no constructive discussion on the issue ever took off. This has changed now given the unassailable evidence in the form of US records making it clear that the CIA had a "reliable" agent operating out of the Indian cabinet in 1971.
> 
> In declassified records the name of the operative has been censored because the CIA Director has "statutory obligations to protect from disclosure [the Agency's] intelligence sources." Dhar writes: "Naming the Indian operative even after so many years will adversely impact the Indo-US relations, and hit the Agency's prospects of recruiting new informants."
> 
> However, he suggests that Indian government may have known the identity of the operative. "R&AW under the most capable R. N. Kao could not have missed the reference to the 'source close to Mrs. Gandhi' and must have dug deeper," he writes, adding that in 1972 Mrs. Gandhi herself charged that "she had information that the CIA had become active in India".
> 
> More pertinently, Dhar quotes from the declassified record of a 5 October 1972 meeting between Indian Foreign Minister Swaran Singh and US Secretary of State William Rogers. During the meeting, Singh asserted that "CIA has been in contact with people in India in 'abnormal ways.'" and that India had information that "proceedings of Congress Working Committee were known to US officials within two hours of meetings".
> 
> End the secrecy: CIA Records Take Lid Off High Treason By Indira Cabinet Minister



It is likely that every single person of general rank in the services knew who the mole was. Very many civilians consequently knew, in the sense that the service people 'knew', who was doing the leaking. That did not do him or his reputation or credibility much good.

Incidentally, why Desai's name occurs in this context is mystifying.

Finally, it does not seem to have been noticed that even according to this rather mysterious report, the Indian war aims are said to have been to take over a strategically significant part of Azad Kashmir, and to permanently neutralise the Pakistan Army. Why should this be associated with Indira Gandhi alone? Apart from the Punjabi Prime Ministers - Inder Gujral and Manmohan Singh - nobody else has rejected this superordinate objective. Many sensible Indians, even those disposed towards peace and cooperation with Pakistan would be inclined to share this view.

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## Joe Shearer

somebozo said:


> If India had another leader like Indra it would lead no where but self destruct and balkanized. Sooner or later it would grow weakers, sanctioned and every neighbouring state jumping in for a pie. Indra by herself had no balls..she borrowed them from Russians..with Russian gone it was saga of impotency once again. On the flip side what did India do to protect their all weather friends in Afghanistan??



Reading this very old thread is rather frustrating. Opinions do not seem to have moved much, judging by other threads, and by other posts elsewhere. 

As far as this is concerned, this post continues to be difficult to clarify. Rather an involved analysis, with neither beginning nor end, if I may humbly suggest so.

Why would Indira-like leadership have led to self-destruction and balkanisation? Were there signs of such developments under her? Is it the Sikh issue that is hinted at? Surely precisely the reverse should be our conclusion: if she and the Indian leadership had in fact recovered Azad Kashmir and disabled the Pakistan Army, there would have been precious little by way of arming and aiding the Khalistanis, no Blue Star, no assassination.

This pipe dream of a balkanised and weaker India falling victim to every "neighbouring state" is a recurring leitmotif in strategic narratives of Pakistani origin. It requires no comment.

We are also informed that India was in effect acting as a Russian agent. Why enlisting their help in neutralising the egregious and more than overt American support for the Pakistani dictatorship is considered borrowing their balls is not clear. Presumably the Pakistani dictatorship's use of American gonads is not considered an equivalent.

Finally, while this analysis is the past seen through a gel-coated lens for the most part, the bit about Afghanistan is plain silly. Afghanistan very successfully tore itself apart. Nobody could have intervened in any positive way; those who did were uniformly negative. India chose not to be one of those vultures. Not a bad thing to do, all things considered.

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## Joe Shearer

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> fair enough and Pakistani moral and other support to Kashmiri freedom fighters is not invasion either...good, we see eye to eye on this issue then
> 
> 
> 
> 
> in india's case they just took in floods of refugees (promoted an influx of hindu refugees especially) -- armed em trained em and sent em back to fight....india certainly meddled in the affairs and partook in what would today be labelled "terrorist support" in the interests of freeing BD from Pakistan. BD was an issue from the very beginnign and in hindsight it should've been independent from the very beginning.



Get your facts straight; the rest is lost.

The vast bulk of the Mukti Bahini were Muslim Bengalis. In fact, Osmani was frustrated at the reluctance of the Hindu refugees to fight. That is not to imply that there were no Hindu MB at all.




Abu Zolfiqar said:


> you conveniently forget that apart from local militias (which work under the directives of the political agents in each tribal area) -- there is also FC apart from regular army and they draw a sizable % of their manpower from KPK and FATA region.
> 
> if FATA were perceived as "invaded" then the locals would not cooperate and provide intel to the military/security forces who are busy blowing up terrorist hideouts at the moment



Good luck with your counter-insurgency campaign.



SHAMK9 said:


> No one here claims that Pakistan is considered a saviour but had Pakistan not existed, India's neighbouring countries would have lived under fear.



Funny, isn't it? India's neighbours live without fear, according to you, and the credit goes to the single most belligerent state in the neighbourhood.



pakdefender said:


> shastri tried and went to hell , indra went to hell even before she gave it a try ... hahaha epic india fail as usual



What is it that you are blabbering about? Do you even know the issues involved? What did Shastri try, and why do you think he went to hell? Apart from the fact that he was a Hindu and died. And what could Indira not give a try, before she, in turn, went to hell?

Shouldn't you be doing your homework instead?

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## Irfan Baloch

batmannow said:


> we told her, we warraned her?
> 
> 
> guss thats enough, its working at least?lolzz


this iconic picture brings me immense joy
what a fitting end to a hag that conspired in the breakup of Pakistan and continued to conspire against Pakistan

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## Joe Shearer

Irfan Baloch said:


> this iconic picture brings me immense joy
> what a fitting end to a hag that conspired in the breakup of Pakistan and continued to conspire against Pakistan



Is this really you? I can't believe that you wrote this post.

Truly disappointing.

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## batmannow

Irfan Baloch said:


> this iconic picture brings me immense joy
> what a fitting end to a hag that conspired in the breakup of Pakistan and continued to conspire against Pakistan


but sir, havnt you thought, about her counterparts in pakistan, in bangala desh, all gone in the painfull manners?lolzz



toxic_pus said:


> So the butt still hurts?
> 
> That brings immense joy to us.


no it brings more pain to you, surly its a point of joy to us?

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## Windjammer

toxic_pus said:


> So the butt still hurts?
> 
> That brings immense joy to us.


How many innocent Sikhs paid with their lives, no guessing whose Butt did get hurt.

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## mandrom

too bad.


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## toxic_pus

Windjammer said:


> How many innocent Sikhs paid with their lives, no guessing whose Butt did get hurt.





batmannow said:


> ohh sure, mumbai has jst witnwssed that pain too?
> can give more, if you still insist!
> 
> 
> ohh sure, when was the mumbai attack?
> no i ,know you , you wouldnt be feeling pain about it?


...because those are _exactly_ same as loosing an integral part of a sovereign State.


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## Contrarian

toxic_pus said:


> ...because those are _exactly_ same as loosing an integral part of a sovereign State.


The extra emoticons in his post seems to be a way to overcompensate.

I dont think anything comes even _close_ to having your country cut up in half. Reeks of an incompetent Armed Forces and an incompetent leadership.

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## SrNair

Not Indira .Indian Generals planned mass invasion and Indira stopped that.
And I think that was one of the best move .Improve's the India's image on world stage.



farhan_9909 said:


> @*Angel88*
> 
> At the end of the day,Whether Bangladesh was liberated and anything else was done,you will remain a indian aka inferior race



Really .But World's opinion is directly opposite to yours.Ask them who is inferior
Thank God still this so called 'race' mentality drives the youth of Pakistan .And that is the main reason we outclass our western neighbour in all fields.And that will remain like this in future.

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## notorious_eagle

farhan_9909 said:


> @*Angel88*
> 
> At the end of the day,Whether Bangladesh was liberated and anything else was done,*you will remain a indian aka inferior race*



Thats uncalled for, i suggest you remove your comment. There is no such thing as inferior race or superior race, we all are equals. The only thing that differentiates us is our will, talent and hardwork. Race has nothing to do with this.

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## Manindra

Irfan Baloch said:


> but a Sikh bodyguard invaded her body with multiple bullets lol
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @waz @BATMAN @batmannow please forgive me I cant find a better picture



Did you know its better to die like brave instead of pussies.
When R&AW tried to replace her old Sikh Body guards then she replied that Death is ultimate truth then why I replace my old body guard due to their belief.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Jackdaws said:


> a. Yes, sure - Operation Searchlight in erstwhile East Pakistan is a figment of the world's imagination. Or the Blood Telegram sent by American diplomats. Or mass graves.



indian yapping about mass graves 

ask Kashmiris who are doing the mass graves...



> b. So did the Lankans tour Pakistan again?



Pakistan and SL can readily take it up with the ICB



> c. Nepal - LOL. Look at this Gallup poll in Nepal. Nepalese See Pakistan as South Asia's Greatest Security Threat
> 28% of Nepal considers you a threat to South Asia.



and how many view india favorably -- go look at the same gallup polls kiddo 

you dig a four meter hole, you find 10 bodies...dig a seven meter one - you could find 40.....perhaps you should keep your beak shut on the matter of foreign relations; for every one of your absurd retorts, 10,000 things can come back and hit you back




> No one in South Asia considers Pakistan as their "savior". They do consider India to be a bully but they deal with it on their own.



tell that to patriotic Sri Lankans - especially those who suffered indian-sponsored LTTE terrorism for half a century.....those who are informed know that Pakistani govt. and military has been hyper-supportive diplomatically and militarily vis a vis the war against LTTE

to be honest - i believe in regional economic integration and cooperation - but at the same time, I am of the view that those who have a problem with Pakistan can kiss our azzes b/c we simply dont give a shyt what you indians or anyone else thinks.

your opinion is of zero value to Pakistanis and all we get are good laughters thanks to a lot of you guys -- especially the ones who keep joining PDF (after getting banned repeatedly) 



Joe Shearer said:


> Get your facts straight; the rest is lost.
> 
> The vast bulk of the Mukti Bahini were Muslim Bengalis. In fact, Osmani was frustrated at the reluctance of the Hindu refugees to fight. That is not to imply that there were no Hindu MB at all



anyone who was a member of mukti bahini was fair game.....yes, we killed a lot of them. That's a good thing.



> Good luck with your counter-insurgency campaign.



worked well in Swat and other areas! 

good luck dealing with the naxals and the 22+ other seperatist/insurgent groups in "democratic shining india" 




> Funny, isn't it? India's neighbours live without fear, according to you, and the credit goes to the single most belligerent state in the neighbourhood.



what are you going to do about it except yap on a forum?

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## jarves

Slayer786 said:


> Lol. I think you guys like to forget the 1000 years of humiliation. Very understandable. It must be so infuriating to be reminded though.


1000 years of humiliation,rofl We ruled you for 7000 years what about that??

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## Abu Zolfiqar

jarves said:


> 1000 years of humiliation,rofl We ruled you for 7000 years what about that??



who is "we"

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## Piru Niqqa

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> who is "we"


Indians.


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## Zarrar Alvi

Piru Niqqa said:


> Indians.


u ruled ur own self for 7000 years?? thts weird

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## Piru Niqqa

Zarrar Alvi said:


> u ruled ur own self for 7000 years?? thts weird


No, it's fact unlike Pakistan at has never had an empire.


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## Zarrar Alvi

Piru Niqqa said:


> No, it's fact unlike Pakistan at has never had an empire.


and what exactly is ur empire?? sikh empire ?? mugal empire ?? or any other??

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## Piru Niqqa

Zarrar Alvi said:


> and what exactly is ur empire?? sikh empire ?? mugal empire ?? or any other??


Maurayan Empire, Gupta Empire, Maratha Empire and loads more including the Sikh Empire as mentioned by you.


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## Hindustani78

jarves said:


> 1000 years of humiliation,rofl We ruled you for 7000 years what about that??



That rule was like of an Union of many kingdoms under one seat.


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## Zarrar Alvi

Piru Niqqa said:


> Maurayan Empire, Gupta Empire, Maratha Empire and loads more including the Sikh Empire as mentioned by you.


what about muslim empire from arab to africa and from africa to europe and from europe to asia

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## Hindustani78

Zarrar Alvi said:


> what about muslim empire from arab to africa and from africa to europe and from europe to asia



That was even an union of different nations combining and uniting under one banner.


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## jaunty

jarves said:


> 1000 years of humiliation,rofl We ruled you for 7000 years what about that??



That is a good point to counter the 1000 year BS.


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## Zarrar Alvi

Hindustani78 said:


> That was even an union of different nations combining and uniting under one banner.


Nations all of them muslims

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## Hindustani78

Zarrar Alvi said:


> Nations all of them muslims



No . there were people even from other religions and communities.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Piru Niqqa said:


> No, it's fact unlike Pakistan at has never had an empire.



india never had an empire....you had a few groups that conquered eachother within; you had foreign conquerers as well...you had loose nation-states and princely states that were independent of eachother

"india" didnt exist until 1947. Anyone who beleives otherwise is the same type of person who will be disappointed to know that "Akhand bharat" never was and never will be a potential/legitimate reality. The Muslim League and the patriots/anti colonialists/anti-fascists behind the Pakistan Movement proved that.



Piru Niqqa said:


> Indians.



see above

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## Umair Nawaz

jaunty said:


> That is a good point to counter the 1000 year BS.


There is no BS abt visible history kid. Denying the reality is BS.

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## jaunty

Umair Nawaz said:


> There is no BS abt visible history kid. Denying the reality is BS.



It is only true for religious bigots like you who can't see beyond religion. I assume you ruled Spain too.


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## Umair Nawaz

Joe Shearer said:


> Finally, while this analysis is the past seen through a gel-coated lens for the most part, the bit about Afghanistan is plain silly. Afghanistan very successfully tore itself apart. Nobody could have intervened in any positive way; those who did were uniformly negative. India chose not to be one of those vultures. Not a bad thing to do, all things considered.


Not a lot of People know But Khalistan movement was the reason for that. It wasnt like India didnt wanted to grab an opportunity in 80s like it did in 71. But it couldnt because US and Pakistan had check-mate her within. Even to Attack Azad Kashmir and G-B yr Punjab was strategically very important for movement.

In simple military words u always cover yr flanks and rear before an offensive.



jaunty said:


> It is only true for religious bigots like you who can't see beyond religion. I assume you ruled Spain too.


LOL really sometimes i feel to be a religious bigot u need to have something within yrself or in yr religion. But indians who generally has even gave up their own religion for atheism cant even imagine that, because the boundary of mentality is too bound! 

Anyways good luck in yr own world but here we dont appreciate yr views.


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## jaunty

Umair Nawaz said:


> LOL really sometimes i feel to be a religious bigot u need to have something within yrself or in yr religion. But indians who generally has even gave up their own religion for atheism cant even imagine that, because the boundary of mentality is too bound! Anyways good luck in yr own world but here we dont appreciate yr views.



I see how you dodged the tricky question. The only basis for that 1000 years rule claim (which by the way is almost twice the exact number and large parts of the country were ruled by different rulers even during those years) is your current religion. By the same logic you should also be able to claim that you ruled Spain for hundreds of years. It's like present day Christians claiming that they ruled India and Pakistan for 200 years because the Brits were Christian. But I don't expect religious bigots to have a sense of logic to understand that. Religions, especially the organized ones curb independent thinking. You can never think beyond what you were told as the ultimate truth. I will let you enjoy your confinement.


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## Umair Nawaz

jaunty said:


> I see how you dodged the tricky question. The only basis for that 1000 years rule claim (which by the way is almost twice the exact number and large parts of the country were ruled by different rulers even during those years) is your current religion. By the same logic you should also be able to claim that you ruled Spain for hundreds of years. It's like present day Christians claiming that they ruled India and Pakistan for 200 years because the Brits were Christian. But I don't expect religious bigots to have a sense of logic to understand that. Religions, especially the organized ones curb independent thinking. You can never think beyond what you were told as the ultimate truth. I will let you enjoy your confinement.


Kid in case u missed this line...........




Umair Nawaz said:


> Anyways good luck in yr own world but here we dont appreciate yr views.


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## jaunty

Umair Nawaz said:


> Kid in case u missed this line...........



Uncle I know that you can't appreciate anything that challenges you. That's a very convenient way to live in denial.


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## Storm Force

gandhi was a gutsy women. and i know the regional nations including pakistan where scared of her.

If Gandhi ruled the modern india 9th largest GDP and nuclear and military power of some capability india would be a scary opponent.


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## Umair Nawaz

jaunty said:


> Uncle I know that you can't appreciate anything that challenges you. That's a very convenient way to live in denial.


yes obviously that is specially when u r having a conversation who in so much conservative mood that he is denying the obvious history. 

like once a wise man said ''u cant expect a caveman to drive a car one day if he refuses to learn new ideas and feels content with his past believes''.

Therefore I leave u in yr own world. Goodbye.

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## Marshmallow

Indira Ghandi who?

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## Umair Nawaz

Marshmallow said:


> Indira Ghandi who?


a Woman who had a western Hollywood's 70s movie witch horror genre attire, and had a hair style that resembled the patients that u usually Find in the Pakistan's largest Mental hospital in Hyderabad.

A woman with the two mentioned characteristics was indira the gandi bachi.

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## Zarrar Alvi

Marshmallow said:


> Indira Ghandi who?


the one who got assassinated by his own sikh guard thats her and after her assassination our SSG Capt Nabeel and Capt khizar did a naked dance in siachen infront of indian bunker chanting " aa jao aub rape wala ilzam lgao hum pa" namardo


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## Rover

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> india never had an empire....you had a few groups that conquered eachother within; you had foreign conquerers as well...you had loose nation-states and princely states that were independent of eachother
> 
> "india" didnt exist until 1947. Anyone who beleives otherwise is the same type of person who will be disappointed to know that "Akhand bharat" never was and never will be a potential/legitimate reality. The Muslim League and the patriots/anti colonialists/anti-fascists behind the Pakistan Movement proved that.
> 
> 
> 
> see above


You need to educate yourself on history mate, ever heard of the Maurayan Empire? Ashoka and Chandragupta? 
That's an Indian Empire that ruled you Pakistanis and yes it was a united India. Infact our national emblem is the same emblem as this empire.





There's also the Gupta empire but I think you get the message, before making stupid statements do research beforehand.

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## Zarrar Alvi

Rover said:


> You need to educate yourself on history mate, ever heard of the Maurayan Empire? Ashoka and Chandragupta?
> That's an Indian Empire that ruled you Pakistanis and yes it was a united India. Infact our national emblem is the same emblem as this empire.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There's also the Gupta empire but I think you get the message, before making stupid statements do research beforehand.


Ruled Pakistan??


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## ares

Marshmallow said:


> *Indira Ghandi who?*





Umair Nawaz said:


> a Woman who had a western Hollywood's 70s movie witch horror genre attire, and had a hair style that resembled the patients that u usually Find in the Pakistan's largest Mental hospital in Hyderabad.
> 
> A woman with the two mentioned characteristics was indira the gandi bachi.





Zarrar Alvi said:


> the one who got assassinated by his own sikh guard thats her and after her assassination our SSG Capt Nabeel and Capt khizar did a naked dance in siachen infront of indian bunker chanting " aa jao aub rape wala ilzam lgao hum pa" namardo



*An Indian woman who inflicted such a deep scars on Pakistani psyche, that even three decades after her death, It still hurts so bad, that they can not but trample on her grave.*

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## Rover

Zarrar Alvi said:


> Ruled Pakistan??


Yes, the area that made up modern day Pakistan and the ancestors of its people.

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## Hindustani78

We all should accept this that India is having its own unique place in the world stage because of its rich culture and traditions and try to avoid talks which led to arguments.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Storm Force said:


> gandhi was a gutsy women. and i know the regional nations including pakistan where scared of her.
> 
> If Gandhi ruled the modern india 9th largest GDP and nuclear and military power of some capability india would be a scary opponent.



Pakistan wasnt scared of her; we just looked at her as a witch, wretched ugly woman who needed to be neutralized...hell - even the Americans and much of the free world felt the same way

thanks to the Sikhs - they got the job done satisfactorily for us

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## MilSpec

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Pakistan wasnt scared of her; we just looked at her as a witch, wretched ugly woman who needed to be neutralized...hell - even the Americans and much of the free world felt the same way
> 
> thanks to the Sikhs - they got the job done satisfactorily for us


Celebration of assassination of elected prime minister of a country reflects extreme myopia. You wont be able to find a single sane Indian member here who would hold such views about any such political leader in the world.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Rover said:


> You need to educate yourself on history mate, ever heard of the Maurayan Empire? Ashoka and Chandragupta?
> That's an Indian Empire that ruled you Pakistanis and yes it was a united India. Infact our national emblem is the same emblem as this empire.



Pakistan and india got their independence in 1947. I've heard of the "Mauryan empire" and it did not comprise all of what is today known as "india"




> There's also the Gupta empire but I think you get the message, before making stupid statements do research beforehand.



yeah well that all went so well.....your so-called "ancient united india" seems to have lost a lot of real estate since then! 

its like Greek telling a Turk - "we ruled over Istanbul" 



sandy_3126 said:


> Celebration of assassination of elected prime minister of a country reflects extreme myopia. You wont be able to find a single sane Indian member here who would hold such views about any such political leader in the world.



I'm not concerned about sane or insane indian members here. This is a Pakistani forum and I don't care if I offended you or others.

Just like I don't care if indians go on tirades about serving or retired COAS, DG-ISIs or ex-PMs etc.





p.s. indira got what was coming to her anyways.....someone had to put her out of her misery

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## toxic_pus

sandy_3126 said:


> Celebration of assassination of elected prime minister of a country reflects extreme myopia. You wont be able to find a single sane Indian member here who would hold such views about any such political leader in the world.


Relax Sandy. He is just scratching the perpetual butt itch, she gave to them.


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## MilSpec

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> I'm not concerned about sane or insane indian members here. This is a Pakistani forum and I don't care if I offended you or others.
> 
> Just like I don't care if indians go on tirades about serving or retired COAS, DG-ISIs or ex-PMs etc.



Your rhetoric is known very well and doesn't offend any sane Indian members... please carry on...


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## Abu Zolfiqar

sandy_3126 said:


> Your rhetoric is known very well and doesn't offend any sane Indian members... please carry on...



I intend to, thanks for your input.



toxic_pus said:


> Relax Sandy. He is just scratching the perpetual butt itch, she gave to them.



How about the perpetual kirpan butt scraping she got in return

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## toxic_pus

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> How about the perpetual kirpan butt scraping she got in return


Perpetuity doesn't apply to those who have passed. It applies to the living.

So...

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## Abu Zolfiqar

toxic_pus said:


> Perpetuity doesn't apply to those who have passed. It applies to the living.
> 
> So...



Were you even alive to witness anything that took place decades back.

kid - i bet you werent even pissing in your diapers during the Cold War. You must be from 1990s generation, so what is all this to you anyways? 

No need to talk about butt itches when we see you indians flood/pollute our forum with your butt itchery 

(a.k.a. emotionally-hashed drivel and semantics)


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## MilSpec

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> I intend to, thanks for your input.


that would be a mammoth task, as that would mean for you to raise your discourse to be valued enough to be taken as offensive.


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## karan.1970

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> How about the perpetual kirpan butt scraping she got in return


Really ? Sounds lame dude.. You can surely do better


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## Abu Zolfiqar

karan.1970 said:


> Really ? Sounds lame dude.. You can surely do better



im too stoned and apathetic



sandy_3126 said:


> that would be a mammoth task, as that would mean for you to raise your discourse to be valued enough to be taken as offensive.

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## karan.1970

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> im too stoned and apathetic


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## MilSpec

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> im too stoned and apathetic



thanks for validating my point...


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## Abu Zolfiqar

karan.1970 said:


>





sandy_3126 said:


> thanks for validating my point...



you are oh-so-very-welcome


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## Zarrar Alvi

Rover said:


> Yes, the area that made up modern day Pakistan and the ancestors of its people.


bhai we came we conquered and we have taken ur land from u its called badmashi not slavery

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## ares

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Pakistan wasnt scared of her; we just looked at her as a witch, wretched ugly woman who needed to be neutralized...hell - even the Americans and much of the free world felt the same way
> 
> *thanks to the Sikhs - they got the job done satisfactorily for us*




In animal kingdom such a behavior characteristic of a hyena.Even a pack of hyenas do not have the balls to take on a fully grown lion in its prime, so they wait for the nature to take its course, wait of lion to get old, sick, weak or *injured/ killed in a battle in with another lion*, then eats its carcass.


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## Zarrar Alvi

ares said:


> In animal kingdom such a behavior characteristic of a hyena.Even a pack of hyenas do not have the balls to take on a fully grown lion in its prime, so they wait for the nature to take its course, wait of lion to get old, sick, weak or *injured/ killed in a battle in with another lion*, then eats its carcass.


so u r referring Sikhs as hyena


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## ares

Zarrar Alvi said:


> so u r referring Sikhs as hyena



No,Had you been little smarter, you would not have to ask this question.


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## Zarrar Alvi

Trunk said:


> Government of India Act 1935 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> http://chddistrictcourts.gov.in/THE INDIAN PENAL CODE.pdf
> 1930 INR to USD; 1930 Indian Rupee to US Dollar Currency Converter
> 
> 
> I hope this might solve your problem and you can request madarssas to update their curriculum


i thin u are a retard kid ... kiddo in urdu Madrassa means School .... so u people study in mandir instead of school??

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## Zarrar Alvi

ares said:


> No,Had you been little smarter, you would not have to ask this question.


she was killed b ur beloved Sikh warrior use proper phrase for him bro dont drag us into it we were not responsible for her killing she her self invited this by doing golden temple massacre



Trunk said:


> Bhai sahib.. someone else came to invade and conquer ... few fell for there religion for greed and some coz of fear... and then they got scared that as they cannot survive coz the one whom they depended on for there security are not more around.. so cried foul and begged for some land to feel secure... isko badmashi nai budzali kehte hain


buzdli to nazar aa ri hai kis pa kis na 1000 saal hukamat ki  anyways u carry on with ur stuff whtever u are taught by ur bollywood masala media .... and few weeks back i heard that ur media was saying that u r some kind of 3rd world super power u can defeat both china and Britain at the same time

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## ares

Zarrar Alvi said:


> she was killed b ur beloved Sikh warrior use proper phrase for him bro dont drag us into it we were not responsible for her killing she her self invited this by doing golden temple massacre



That is what usually a happens in animal kingdom too, a lion gets injured or killed by another lion in battle and a pack hyenas move in and just do a vulgar dance of death on its carcass .


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## Zarrar Alvi

ares said:


> That is what usually a happens in animal kingdom too, a lion gets injured or killed by another lion in battle and a pack hyenas move in and just do a vulgar dance of death on its carcass .


she was a clever Fox not a lion dude ... lions fight face to face they dont use mukti banis to weaken a nation and she like typical coward fox Attacked when the lion was injured in 1971



Trunk said:


> bhai sahab.. aapki badmashi aur budzli ke baat horehi thi.. aur aap foren se Britan aur China ki bund mei chup gaye... ab itna solid proof b nai manga tha aapse


jaisa aap ka bahadur senaik and politicians apna 3 daddys Israel , america and russia ki Ga*d me chup jata hai


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## Zarrar Alvi

Trunk said:


> So as per your logic we only need a rodent like modi to finish this Lion coz hyenas(TTP) already made Lion starving for survival right now.... and moreover lions are famous for attacking from behind not face to face fights
> 
> That right now we only need a rodent like modi coz this famous lion is already starving for survivals coz of hyenas (TTP) and moreover Lions are known for attacking from back not from front please research more on animal kingdom.....


starving for survival yea TTP are everywhere i am scared PFTT kiddo taliban are only in waziristan and guess what unki apni phati pari hai some unknown gunmen are ambushing their members and leader in waziristan for the past few weeks


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Zarrar Alvi said:


> i thin u are a retard kid ... kiddo in urdu Madrassa means School .... so u people study in mandir instead of school??



tell them to get toilets first



Trunk said:


> Little correction India got independence.. Pakistan was created in 1947 as there is no official document available as Gov. of Pakistan before 1947 but you still use 80% of rules created as Indian Penal Code... that was drafted way back in 1860...



Pakistan got independence before "india" became a country

and with bodos, tamils, naxal tribals and all these other groups - I think you should focus on the integrity of your own country - especially when Modi comes to power

given past 72 hours, I'd be a little worried if I were you


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## nForce

Indira Gandhi was a person with many flaws.But she was a great leader, no doubts about that.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

nForce said:


> Indira Gandhi was a person with many flaws.But she was a great leader, no doubts about that.


 
she looked good with lead implants....probably the only jewellry that ever adorned her

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## nForce

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> she looked good with lead implants....probably the only jewellry that ever adorned her


Going by your logic, 90000 West Pakistani POWs would have also looked dandy with lead implants, their actions justified that plastic surgery, wouldn't you agree?


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## Abu Zolfiqar

nForce said:


> Going by your logic, 90000 West Pakistani POWs would have also looked dandy with lead implants, their actions justified that plastic surgery, wouldn't you agree?



The same could be speculated about these guys of yours

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## nForce

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> The same could be speculated about these guys of yours



ummm.. I dont see 90000...


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## Abu Zolfiqar

nForce said:


> ummm.. I dont see 90000...



not all of those 90,000 were soldiers by the way....im not even gonna engage in a d1ck measuring contest with some idiot who doesnt even know what war is about, probably couldnt even handle a water pistol.

the leader of the country that was instrumental in supporting rebels (many who slaughtered and raped anyone that spoke well of Pakistan) -- she actually did get the implants she needed. And we didn't even have to pay to get that job done, indians brought it on themselves when they angered the Khalistanis

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## nForce

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> not all of those 90,000 were soldiers by the way....im not even gonna engage in a d1ck measuring contest with some idiot who doesnt even know what war is about, probably couldnt even handle a water pistol.
> 
> the leader of the country that was instrumental in supporting rebels (many who slaughtered and raped anyone that spoke well of Pakistan) -- she actually did get the implants she needed. And we didn't even have to pay to get that job done, indians brought it on themselves when they angered the Khalistanis



ohh don't bore me you wanna be pseudo intellectual...have seen so much of couch potatoes like you that I no longer bother to read beyond the first line....you don't have anything substantial to say, don't quote me, stop wasting my time, and yours if you can...


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## Abu Zolfiqar

nForce said:


> ohh don't bore me you wanna be pseudo intellectual...have seen so much of couch potatoes like you that I no longer bother to read beyond the first line....you don't have anything substantial to say, don't quote me, stop wasting my time, and yours if you can...



Hey numb-nuts - how bout you go to bha-rat rakshak where people will accept you a bit more?

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## nForce

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Hey numb-nuts - how bout you go to bha-rat rakshak where people will accept you a bit more?


anything to contribute to the topic ? Knowledge is a necessary criteria for that...


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## Storm Force

Pakistanis hate Gandhi cause she annexed East Pakistan from you in 12 days no other reason.

Same time stuck her middle finger up to USA


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## Rover

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Pakistan and india got their independence in 1947. I've heard of the "Mauryan empire" and it did not comprise all of what is today known as "india"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yeah well that all went so well.....your so-called "ancient united india" seems to have lost a lot of real estate since then!
> 
> its like Greek telling a Turk - "we ruled over Istanbul"


Please look at the map and tell me whre it doesn't comprise of all of what is India? In fact our national Embelem is the same as that of the Mauarayan Empire.
The rulers of both those empires where the ancestors of the Indian people so as said previously, your statement "India has never had an empire" is hilarious coming from a Pakistani. 



Zarrar Alvi said:


> bhai we came we conquered and we have taken ur land from u its called badmashi not slavery


LOL, please name me a Pakistani Empire? And don't say any Turkic/Arab empire, they referred to Pakistanis as Ajlafs and you have no claim to them. You people have always been ruled.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Rover said:


> Please look at the map and tell me whre it doesn't comprise of all of what is India? In fact our national Embelem is the same as that of the Mauarayan Empire.
> The rulers of both those empires where the ancestors of the Indian people so as said previously, your statement "India has never had an empire" is hilarious coming from a Pakistani.



india wasnt a country until 1947

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## Ammyy

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> india wasnt a country until 1947



 If you done with your joke






Google Image Result for http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/74/British_Indian_ten-rupee_note.jpg

Currency of undivided India 1920

Some more

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/...ad9dTSvggfqkF1DS-86RZwLYzfc1Oz_KnVlEGoXmwjV_4
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRzmowFU02vvTHDK0ZtmjYES7E6sDmKrSJ0w3n6XvqoZcQWfP3-6w

And you can search many more .... use google


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## Rover

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> india wasnt a country until 1947


The Republic of India was created in 1947. Back on topic, it is clear you have run out of nonsense to say so you are resorting to one liners.


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## Khan_patriot

The b**** must have been high as a kite when she was concocting this plan, let long term impact alone makes this plan not viable, West Pakistan was and is a whole new story compared to the East.....



Trunk said:


> So as per your logic we only need a rodent like modi to finish this Lion coz hyenas(TTP) already made Lion starving for survival right now.... and moreover *lions are famous for attacking from behind not face to face fights*


I guess you must have used all the gray matter in the anorexic skull of yours to come up with that one....


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## T90TankGuy

This is a four yr old thread guy , let it die


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Ammyy said:


> If you done with your joke
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Google Image Result for http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/74/British_Indian_ten-rupee_note.jpg
> 
> Currency of undivided India 1920
> 
> Some more
> 
> https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/...ad9dTSvggfqkF1DS-86RZwLYzfc1Oz_KnVlEGoXmwjV_4
> http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRzmowFU02vvTHDK0ZtmjYES7E6sDmKrSJ0w3n6XvqoZcQWfP3-6w
> 
> And you can search many more .... use google



if it were a country, the british (after Mughals and various others) wouldnt have had a firm control over the sovereignty and the resources

its not so complicated



jbgt90 said:


> This is a four yr old thread guy , let it die



at this juncture, cant agree more

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## karan.1970

Khan_patriot said:


> The b**** must have been high as a kite when she was concocting this plan, let long term impact alone makes this plan not viable, West Pakistan was and is a whole new story compared to the East.....


Dude, I can turn back and abuse Jinnah as a bas***d, as high as a kite when he concocted the plan to capture Kashmir by the use of terrorists in 1947. But I wont. You can make the same comment in a more civil manner without descending into abuses and name calling.. Keep it clean..

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## jaunty

It is understandable that Pakistanis hate Indira, after all she managed to slice the country in two parts. It would be weird if they didn't.


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## karan.1970

jaunty said:


> It is understandable that Pakistanis hate Indira, after all she managed to slice the country in two parts. It would be weird if they didn't.


true that..


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## Abu Zolfiqar

jaunty said:


> It is understandable that Pakistanis hate Indira, after all she managed to slice the country in two parts. It would be weird if they didn't.



exactly.....therefore supporting Kashmiri freedom fighters is not only our right, it's our duty

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## karan.1970

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> exactly.....therefore supporting Kashmiri freedom fighters is not only our right, it's our duty


Yup.. Just like in that light, supporting Balochi rebels (and any others that pop up in Sindh etc) is ours .. Game on

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## Abu Zolfiqar

karan.1970 said:


> Yup.. Just like in that light, supporting Balochi rebels (and any others that pop up in Sindh etc) is ours .. Game on


 
well it's going on anyways....

Sindh?? Balochistan?? 

yeah - supporting a few groups with marxist/leftist credentials in an Islamic Republic. Good luck with that one.

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## Ammyy

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> if it were a country, the british (after Mughals and various others) wouldnt have had a firm control over the sovereignty and the resources
> its not so complicated



Some time back you posted this



> india wasnt a country until 1947



India was there well before partition even present Pakistan was part of India.

No one is denying that we were under occupation but your statement is simply BS.


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## Khan_patriot

karan.1970 said:


> Dude, I can turn back and abuse Jinnah as a bas***d, as high as a kite when he concocted the plan to capture Kashmir by the use of terrorists in 1947. But I wont. You can make the same comment in a more civil manner without descending into abuses and name calling.. Keep it clean..


Apologies if that offended you....

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Ammyy said:


> Some time back you posted this



and there was no counter-reply b/c what I said is accurate



> India was there well before partition even present Pakistan was part of India.



it wasn't a single country, but just a bunch of nation-states, princely states etc. all being controlled through force or for economic reasons - bound together

"india" became a country in 1947, a day after Youm-e-AZADI




> No one is denying that we were under occupation but your statement is simply BS.



so you claim you existed as a country but you had zero control over the political affairs or the resources; you claim you existed as a country but britishers were sending indians to Kenya and South Africa to do menial work. 

it's like me saying I own the deeds and control a 2 story villa in Botswana - but foreigners from thousands of kilometers away have the keys, have the remote to the car garage, have the keys to the car, and determine when to fertilize the roses in the back yard 

cool story bruh

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## chauvunist

karan.1970 said:


> Yup.. Just like in that light, supporting Balochi rebels (and any others that pop up in Sindh etc) is ours .. Game on




The fact that we had been/has been through the most tough and danger period ever faced by Pakistan and you did what you could in your power to harm us but we stood persevered and here we are in front of you today on our way to prosper..However same cannot be said about India where a single sms lead to massive unrest in couple of states and single flame speech can turn into wild communal riot's(talking of stability hmmmm).. so you tell me who has more options on table...You had your turn and you did what you could but still we have stood the ground still,Who knows it can be our turn tomorow(if you know what i mean)..

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## jaunty

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> exactly.....therefore supporting Kashmiri freedom fighters is not only our right, it's our duty



Not the same thing Abu, unless you accept Kashmir as a part of India. Regardless, you are welcome to keep trying, we don't mind it. 

The same analogy would have been Khalistan, where you tried and failed.


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## Ammyy

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> and there was no counter-reply b/c what I said is accurate
> 
> 
> 
> it wasn't a single country, but just a bunch of nation-states, princely states etc. all being controlled through force or for economic reasons - bound together
> 
> "india" became a country in 1947, a day after Youm-e-AZADI
> 
> 
> 
> 
> so you claim you existed as a country but you had zero control over the political affairs or the resources; you claim you existed as a country but britishers were sending indians to Kenya and South Africa to do menial work.
> 
> it's like me saying I own the deeds and control a 2 story villa in Botswana - but foreigners from thousands of kilometers away have the keys, have the remote to the car garage, have the keys to the car, and determine when to fertilize the roses in the back yard
> 
> cool story bruh




What my point was concept/name India was present well before independence which was used for entire sub continent) but your cant say same for Pakistan (it was created for muslim majority area of occupied India.)


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Ammyy said:


> What my point was concept/name India was present well before independence which was used for entire sub continent) but your cant say same for Pakistan (it was created for muslim majority area of occupied India.)



the concept of Pakistan has existed since the late 1800s; the Muslim League and the Pakistani revolution existed since 1930s, not long after the Turkish war of independence and the fall of the Ottoman Empire (which Pakistanis/Muslims of british hindustan supported ardently)

and Quaid e Azam Jinnah Sahib's vision for Pakistan was a Muslim country -- but one in which Muslims and non-Muslims could live freely in a a capitalistic society - a tolerant and progressive one. We deviated from the path - but that was the raison d'etre and hopefully things change with proper leaders.

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## karan.1970

chauvunist said:


> The fact that we had been/has been through the most tough and danger period ever faced by Pakistan and you did what you could in your power to harm us but we stood persevered and here we are in front of you today on our way to prosper..However same cannot be said about India where a single sms lead to massive unrest in couple of states and single flame speech can turn into wild communal riot's(talking of stability hmmmm).. so you tell me who has more options on table...You had your turn and you did what you could but still we have stood the ground still,Who knows it can be our turn tomorow(if you know what i mean)..



Dude.. you think you have persevered and its all over..  it hasnt even started..and about the jibe about the sms.. well, we didnt have to even send an SMS. Some random guy made a film in California and Pakistan burned.. Think about that now 

Just wait while USA gets out of Afg. The fun will start then...



Abu Zolfiqar said:


> well it's going on anyways....
> 
> Sindh?? Balochistan??
> 
> yeah - supporting a few groups with marxist/leftist credentials in an Islamic Republic. Good luck with that one.


yup.. you folks were as confident in 1971 as well


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## Abu Zolfiqar

karan.1970 said:


> yup.. you folks were as confident in 1971 as well



Balochistan and Sindh are part of the MAINLAND...and it's hard to invade or send terrorists when a few battlefield tactical nukes have joined our arsenal. And yes - we'd happily use them if a threat of existential proportions took place

so long story short - the games may continue as long as they have to. Pakistan isn't Bhutan or Nepal.



karan.1970 said:


> Just wait while USA gets out of Afg. The fun will start then



Oh you got that right! 



chauvunist said:


> T
> However same cannot be said about India where a single sms lead to massive unrest in couple of states and single flame speech can turn into wild communal riot's(talking of stability hmmmm)..



i completely forgot about that SMS job 

talk about reactionaries!!!

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## chauvunist

karan.1970 said:


> Dude.. you think you have persevered and its all over..  it hasnt even started..and about the jibe about the sms.. well, we didnt have to even send an SMS. Some random guy made a film in California and Pakistan burned.. Think about that now
> 
> Just wait while USA gets out of Afg. The fun will start then...




Like i said you did what you could but you got disappointed in the End and to say it's only the start,hell yeah it's time for us to play some chess because you had your turn and now it's our's...Yeah let the USA get out of Afghanistan and we will have other neighbor's to worry about as history may repeat itself like 90's...

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## Abu Zolfiqar

chauvunist said:


> Like i said you did what you could but you got disappointed in the End and to sate it's only the start,hell yeah it's time for us to play some chess because you had your turn and now it's our's...Yeah let the USA get out of Afghanistan and we will have other neighbor's to worry about as history may repeat itself like 90's...



I agree with former DG-ISI Lt. Gen. (retd.) Gul's assesment that Abdullah Abdullah will be our best bet vis-a-vis Afghan elections.

If we can bridge the gap between him and the Afghan mujahideen forces (not an easy task) and continue to be instrumental in the reconciliation process - I wouldnt be as worried about Afghanistan.

Karzai the puppet of Kabul has been installed there in his creaky kursi since 2001; since that time he's been less than cooperative and worked with india against Pakistan....once he's erased from the picture, things couldnt get worse than they are

worst case scenario - tear up our signature on Geneva Conventions, landmine the border and then re-focus our resources on the eastern flank overlooking occupied Kashmir (which in either case, I would support)

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## karan.1970

chauvunist said:


> Like i said you did what you could but you got disappointed in the End and to say it's only the start,hell yeah it's time for us to play some chess because you had your turn and now it's our's...Yeah let the USA get out of Afghanistan and we will have other neighbor's to worry about as history may repeat itself like 90's...


And you know what came after 90's .. dont you  ??


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## ares

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> india wasnt a country until 1947



*As per your logic, Pakistan wasn't a country until 1971.*

Names of the country change,Maps of the country change but country is defined by its citizens.

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## karan.1970

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Balochistan and Sindh are part of the MAINLAND...and it's hard to invade or send terrorists when a few battlefield tactical nukes have joined our arsenal. And yes - we'd happily use them if a threat of existential proportions took place
> 
> so long story short - the games may continue as long as they have to. Pakistan isn't Bhutan or Nepal.


Invasions are a thing of past.. Springs are more in fashion these days.. If you know what I mean 





Abu Zolfiqar said:


> i completely forgot about that SMS job
> 
> talk about reactionaries!!!



Yup.. One movie in California.. a Dozen dead in Pakistan. Reactionaries indeed 



Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Balochistan and Sindh are part of the MAINLAND...and it's hard to invade or send terrorists when a few battlefield tactical nukes have joined our arsenal. And yes - we'd happily use them if a threat of existential proportions took place
> 
> so long story short - the games may continue as long as they have to. Pakistan isn't Bhutan or Nepal.


Invasions are a thing of past.. Springs are more in fashion these days.. If you know what I mean 





Abu Zolfiqar said:


> i completely forgot about that SMS job
> 
> talk about reactionaries!!!



Yup.. One movie in California.. a Dozen dead in Pakistan. Reactionaries indeed


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## chauvunist

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> I agree with former DG-ISI Lt. Gen. (retd.) Gul's assesment that Abdullah Abdullah will be our best bet vis-a-vis Afghan elections.
> 
> If we can bridge the gap between him and the Afghan mujahideen forces (not an easy task) and continue to be instrumental in the reconciliation process - I wouldnt be as worried about Afghanistan.
> 
> Karzai the puppet of Kabul has been installed there in his creaky kursi since 2001; since that time he's been less than cooperative and worked with india against Pakistan....once he's erased from the picture, things couldnt get worse than they are
> 
> worst case scenario - tear up our signature on Geneva Conventions, landmine the border and then re-focus our resources on the eastern flank overlooking occupied Kashmir (which in either case, I would support)



Couldn't agree more with your analysis,Sir...there is obvious unrest in Indian security apparatus keeping in view post 2014 afghan scenario,One obviously can sense Haste in Arms procurement by Indian Forces in the recent past and near future..



karan.1970 said:


> And you know what came after 90's .. dont you  ??



who know's it may be 80's especially mid 80's followed by 90's..

P:S...going to sleep,have to go to work tomorow,so see u after 20 hours..

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## jaunty

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> I agree with former DG-ISI Lt. Gen. (retd.) Gul's assesment that Abdullah Abdullah will be our best bet vis-a-vis Afghan elections.
> If we can bridge the gap between him and the Afghan mujahideen forces (not an easy task) and continue to be instrumental in the reconciliation process - I wouldnt be as worried about Afghanistan.



Wasn't Abdullah Abdullah a close associate of Norther Alliance? He would probably show you Taliban supporters the boot for unnecessary interference.


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## illusion8

karan.1970 said:


> Dude.. you think you have persevered and its all over..  it hasnt even started..and about the jibe about the sms.. well, we didnt have to even send an SMS. Some random guy made a film in California and Pakistan burned.. Think about that now
> 
> Just wait while USA gets out of Afg. The fun will start then...
> 
> 
> yup.. you folks were as confident in 1971 as well



The SMSes and the fake images were circulated all over the world among Muslims so it wasn't exactly a targeted sort of an spy operation on India specifically - though TOI made a big deal about it - 1. to pass on the blame to our dear neighbor and 2. to have an external source point of trouble makers to shift the blame from the locals, the illegal Bangladeshi's in India reacting the way they did was a surprise though and have exposed the extent of their spread.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

jaunty said:


> Wasn't Abdullah Abdullah a close associate of Norther Alliance? He would probably show you Taliban supporters the boot for unnecessary interference.



Ahmed Shah Massoud (whom despite our differences in the end - I have HUGGGE respect for as a freedom fighter) -- we worked with him since the beginning of the anti soviet jihad. CIA worked with him.

He was a Tajik, not a Pakhtun. Incidentally, not all Afghans in Pakistan are Pakhtuns. There are also Tajiks and Hazaras as well (we have one on this forum). Pakistan took sides, as did other regional countries. So be it. At the end of the day, Pakistan has done more for Afghanistan than any other group of countries COMBINED! That is incontrovertible. 

while on the subject of Abdullah Abdullah

Pak-Afghan circles dismiss qualms about Abdullah’s background – The Express Tribune



karan.1970 said:


> Invasions are a thing of past.. Springs are more in fashion these days.. If you know what I mean



I hear ya! And having 22+ potential "springs" could lead to uncomfortably warm and humid "summers" if you know what I mean 




> Yup.. One movie in California.. a Dozen dead in Pakistan. Reactionaries indeed



massive lay-offs led to 41 dozen dead in Gujrat in '69. Reactionaries indeed (i guess its tradition especially in that state)

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## jaunty

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> while on the subject of Abdullah Abdullah
> 
> Pak-Afghan circles dismiss qualms about Abdullah’s background – The Express Tribune



The fact that such articles have been written shows that there are qualms about his background. However that doesn't mean that he would be anti Pakistan. But I am not sure if he would appreciate your patronizing attitude of trying to bridge the gap between him and Talibans. He would most likely try to do that on his own if he wants to go that way. Otherwise ANA is getting stronger by the day. Also don't forget the fact that Americans would not want to see the country immediately going back the hands of Taliban. It is not as simple as you made it sound like.


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## acid rain

ares said:


> *As per your logic, Pakistan wasn't a country until 1971.*
> 
> Names of the country change,Maps of the country change but country is defined by its citizens.



Thats Pakistani logic - it also co relates to - there was nothing called the Ottoman civilization, or Roman civilization or Persian civilization or chinese civilization because they were multiple kingdoms with multiple kings and the boundaries were only finalized recently.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

jaunty said:


> The fact that such articles have been written shows that there are qualms about his background.



what happens in Afghanistan directly affects Pakistan....anyone with even pea-sized brain matter inside their skulls would be cognizant of that



> However that doesn't mean that he would be anti Pakistan. But I am not sure if he would appreciate your patronizing attitude of trying to bridge the gap between him and Talibans.



Pro talebs allegedly killed Karzai's father and despite that he called the talebs his "brothers" (I found that a bit bizarre).

As for bridging the gap and promoting reconciliation - it is something Pakistan will push for. In 1990s after we defeated the soviets, we made the mistake of taking sides. At the time it made sense, but on the broader scheme of things we should have worked assiduously to end the ethnic fighting and factionalization of the country. We had little control over that as it was an internal affair.

Today - I think Afghans by and large are fed up of war and want to move forward. We have the means to help assist in that -- as has been discussed here and as has been discussed by officials on both sides. NATO is desperate also to see that happen as they prepare to slowly make their exit.




> He would most likely try to do that on his own if he wants to go that way. Otherwise ANA is getting stronger by the



With the ANA - it'll be hit or miss. Past 2 years have seen overtly hostile actions and statements on both sides. However, the ANA is over-staffed and still will require foreign support (to pay salaries, maintain supplies, training, logistics etc.). The Afghan economy on its own can simply not afford to fund such a force independently. The UAE suggested that the militaries of Muslim nations (e.g. Turkiye) should play a peace-keeping role as they would not be seen as occupiers per se.

I agree with such a proposal though it may not materialize, given ongoing events in N. Africa/Middle East




> Also don't forget the fact that Americans would not want to see the country immediately going back the hands of Taliban. It is not as simple as you made it sound like.



it's not simple but neither is it too complicated (the broader picture, not the intricacies)

NATO just wants OUT in a dignified manner. Any way that can end a potential civil war - they will opt for it. They have taken Pakistan into confidence on this matter - at least certain policy circles in Washington. Many exist. Al qaeda's capabilities in the region have been significantly eroded. More attention is going towards Gulf of Aden; and of course South China Sea where other games will be brewing shortly.

Mullah Omar - who is said to be influential - is signalling that he isn't averse to peace talks. Why do you think the Americans haven't whacked him? They know where he is! (true story)



ares said:


> *As per your logic, Pakistan wasn't a country until 1971.*
> 
> Names of the country change,Maps of the country change but country is defined by its citizens.



I got a good laugh from that one....you realize you did just contradict yourself right? 

"maps change but citizens stay the same"

tell that to the Tatars in Crimea

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## jaunty

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> what happens in Afghanistan directly affects Pakistan....anyone with even pea-sized brain matter inside their skulls would be cognizant of that



Completely agreed. That is why it seems weird when Pakistanis here talk about the American withdrawal with a lot of winkies. If Afghanistan gets destabilized again, at worst Indians would have to pack their bags and leave but Pakistan's tribal areas in the west might come under direct influence. So a stable Afghanistan is in everyone's interest. 

The rest of your post is speculative, I guess we will see how things pan out.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

jaunty said:


> Completely agreed. That is why it seems weird when Pakistanis here talk about the American withdrawal with a lot of winkies. If Afghanistan gets destabilized again, at worst Indians would have to pack their bags and leave but Pakistan's tribal areas in the west might come under direct influence.
> 
> The rest of your post is speculative, I guess we will see how things pan out.



Policy circles in Pakistan are also divided on the subject. People analyze things differently, they aren't robots who think unanimously. A visit to Parliament would confirm that.

As for tribal areas - they would be dismally affected but then again things can't get much worse than they were especially between 2005-2010. . .You have tribes that have existed on both sides of the border for centuries; kind of like Saudi Arabia's border with Yemen. There are historic and linguistic ties but with that said - the military would never allow things to reach a point of no control. Several clean-up operations past and ongoing confirm that.

acts of terrorism involving non-state actors have decreased significantly, by the grace of God.



> So a stable Afghanistan is in everyone's interest.



yes, it is



> The rest of your post is speculative, I guess we will see how things pan out.



what isn't these days

we can continue this discussion elsewhere if/when you like

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## kadamba-warrior

It is amazing how some people here can claim nonchalantly that India didn't exist before the partition! In the early 60-70's (pre-Zia Era) you would be laughed at for making such a suggestion. There is a difference between India and "Republic of India" just as there is difference between nations and modern definition of nation states.

It is not only preposterous to suggest so but it is also part of a very conscious but lame attempt by some propaganda machines to undermine the history of ancient land that India has been. Not surprising then that they claim India has nothing to do with IVC.

Goes on to show how a propaganda repeated again and again over generations, ultimately begins to be accepted as mainstream. All in the name of justifying the explosive Two-Nation-Theory, eh!?

On Topic, I think it was the US rather than Indira that really wanted India to attempt such a crazy invasion -- just so that it could have an excuse to bifurcate another Soviet ally. It was in Soviets' interest to make sure that India didn't attempt anything as crazy as this and lose an ally to another conflict (a la Korea, Vietnam).


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## Pakistanisage

Aae jati budhi Mai, kyon nahi aaee ?

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## jarves

Indira Gandhi was an excellent leader.Pakistanis hate towards her is understandable that she sliced there country in two parts and imposed one of the most humiliating defeats in history.
We need more leadaers like her.

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## karan.1970

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> I hear ya! And having 22+ potential "springs" could lead to uncomfortably warm and humid "summers" if you know what I mean


In India hot summers is the status quo. Think about Pakistan. Hot springs and no power for ACs.. Not looking good 






Abu Zolfiqar said:


> massive lay-offs led to 41 dozen dead in Gujrat in '69. Reactionaries indeed (i guess its tradition especially in that state)


Oh! so we are now going really back in history ? You may want to revisit Lahore of 1953 where 200 people were killed just because they believed in a different sect of Islam. Reactionaries.. ?? Nah! plain and simple extremists..

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## Donatello

Indira Gandhi planned a lot of things. Her own security wasn't one of them.

Mods, @Oscar @Manticore 

Please lock this thread. Same old posters. Same old posts.

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## ares

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> I got a good laugh from that one....you realize you did just contradict yourself right?
> 
> "maps change but citizens stay the same"
> 
> tell that to the Tatars in Crimea



Did you, then I must commend you for being awfully easy to amuse, its a good thing you are not a girl.

Since Crimea is recent and Pakistan is close to your heart, I will give you these two examples.

Crimea, which until a few days ago was a part of Ukraine, is now a part of Russia.

Map of Russia has changed, Map of Ukraine has changed, but neither of these countries claim to be reincarnated.

Citizen of Crimea, 96% of who considered themselves as Russian and voted heavily to join Russia were the *defining factor*.

*Similary, did Pakistan get reinvented in 1971, its maps changed and its boundaries got redefined, does that mean there was no Pakistan before 1971?*


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## ares

Donatello said:


> Indira Gandhi planned a lot of things. Her own security wasn't one of them.
> 
> Mods, @Oscar @Manticore
> 
> Please lock this thread. Same old posters. Same old posts.



As a matter of fact after operation blue star, she was advised to remove the Sikh body guards from her security details.
She reused at point blank stating that she had utmost faith in her body guards.

The truth is being a nationalist she did not consider sending army into Golden Temple as an attack on sikh faith, but an attack on terrorist, who had taken over the temple at Gun point, which is what it was.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

ares said:


> Did you, then I must commend you for being awfully easy to amuse, its a good thing you are not a girl.
> 
> Since Crimea is recent and Pakistan is close to your heart, I will give you these two examples.
> 
> Crimea, which until a few days ago was a part of Ukraine, is now a part of Russia.
> 
> Map of Russia has changed, Map of Ukraine has changed, but neither of these countries claim to be reincarnated.
> 
> Citizen of Crimea, 96% of who considered themselves as Russian and voted heavily to join Russia were the *defining factor*.
> 
> *Similary, did Pakistan get reinvented in 1971, its maps changed and its boundaries got redefined, does that mean there was no Pakistan before 1971?*


 
we dont need/want to invade Bdesh and "reclaim" it

Kashmiri cause however - that's a work in progress. It'll either be freed from indian iron-fist/genocidal grasp and will either join Pakistan or become 100% indepndent

that's why i tell you indians to just simply relax and accept it rather than continue to be frustrated and cling onto artifical notions

khair hai, anywaz 




p.s. i could care less what happens in Ukraine/Russia...our only stake there is the cooperation we have with Ukraine regarding KMDB 6TD-2s for our Al Khalid II MBTs. And that shall continue, regardless of who it irritates

Ukraine Reassures Pakistan on Defense Orders | Defense News | defensenews.com


butttt i digress



kadamba-warrior said:


> It is amazing how some people here can claim nonchalantly that India didn't exist before the partition! In the early 60-70's (pre-Zia Era) you would be laughed at for making such a suggestion. There is a difference between India and "Republic of India" just as there is difference between nations and modern definition of nation states.
> 
> It is not only preposterous to suggest so but it is also part of a very conscious but lame attempt by some propaganda machines to undermine the history of ancient land that India has been. Not surprising then that they claim India has nothing to do with IVC.
> 
> Goes on to show how a propaganda repeated again and again over generations, ultimately begins to be accepted as mainstream. All in the name of justifying the explosive Two-Nation-Theory, eh!?
> 
> On Topic, I think it was the US rather than Indira that really wanted India to attempt such a crazy invasion -- just so that it could have an excuse to bifurcate another Soviet ally. It was in Soviets' interest to make sure that India didn't attempt anything as crazy as this and lose an ally to another conflict (a la Korea, Vietnam).


 
be as amazed as you like.....india as a country didnt exist until 1947 and there's no such thing as "united india" before 1947...hell, even today you have North vs. South and East vs. West tensions

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## Jackdaws

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> indian yapping about mass graves
> 
> ask Kashmiris who are doing the mass graves...
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan and SL can readily take it up with the ICB
> 
> 
> 
> and how many view india favorably -- go look at the same gallup polls kiddo
> 
> you dig a four meter hole, you find 10 bodies...dig a seven meter one - you could find 40.....perhaps you should keep your beak shut on the matter of foreign relations; for every one of your absurd retorts, 10,000 things can come back and hit you back
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tell that to patriotic Sri Lankans - especially those who suffered indian-sponsored LTTE terrorism for half a century.....those who are informed know that Pakistani govt. and military has been hyper-supportive diplomatically and militarily vis a vis the war against LTTE
> 
> to be honest - i believe in regional economic integration and cooperation - but at the same time, I am of the view that those who have a problem with Pakistan can kiss our azzes b/c we simply dont give a shyt what you indians or anyone else thinks.
> 
> your opinion is of zero value to Pakistanis and all we get are good laughters thanks to a lot of you guys -- especially the ones who keep joining PDF (after getting banned repeatedly)
> 
> 
> 
> anyone who was a member of mukti bahini was fair game.....yes, we killed a lot of them. That's a good thing.
> 
> 
> 
> worked well in Swat and other areas!
> 
> good luck dealing with the naxals and the 22+ other seperatist/insurgent groups in "democratic shining india"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> what are you going to do about it except yap on a forum?




Grapes are sour indeed.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Jackdaws said:


> Grapes are sour indeed.



good...that's how they should be....better than rotten and gooey.

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## Trev

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Ahmed Shah Massoud (whom despite our differences in the end - I have HUGGGE respect for as a freedom fighter) -- we worked with him since the beginning of the anti soviet jihad. CIA worked with him.
> 
> He was a Tajik, not a Pakhtun. Incidentally, not all Afghans in Pakistan are Pakhtuns. There are also Tajiks and Hazaras as well (we have one on this forum). Pakistan took sides, as did other regional countries. So be it. At the end of the day, Pakistan has done more for Afghanistan than any other group of countries COMBINED! That is incontrovertible.
> 
> while on the subject of Abdullah Abdullah
> 
> Pak-Afghan circles dismiss qualms about Abdullah’s background – The Express Tribune
> 
> 
> 
> I hear ya! And having 22+ potential "springs" could lead to uncomfortably warm and humid "summers" if you know what I mean
> 
> 
> 
> 
> massive lay-offs led to 41 dozen dead in Gujrat in '69. Reactionaries indeed (i guess its tradition especially in that state)


Oh dear, when was the last time you heard anything from our springs? Unlike the recent Balochistan train attacks.


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## Zarrar Alvi

Trev said:


> Oh dear, when was the last time you heard anything from our springs? Unlike the recent Balochistan train attacks.


i heard someone tested a phatakha in chennai for further attacks best of luck


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## Joe Shearer

somebozo said:


> If India had another leader like Indra it would lead no where but self destruct and balkanized. Sooner or later it would grow weakers, sanctioned and every neighbouring state jumping in for a pie. Indra by herself had no balls..she borrowed them from Russians..with Russian gone it was saga of impotency once again. On the flip side what did India do to protect their all weather friends in Afghanistan??



Speculative history is all very interesting, but it belongs to the sphere of historical romances. Pakistan and her western patrons put India under sanctions long enough; some of us lived right through that, professionally speaking. It hurt us, it never stopped us.

As for the rest of your speculation and the dubious language you have used, no doubt there is grief and the hatred of a loser at the core of it. As they say in some other language, "Tout comprendre c'est tout pardonner". Carry on, chaps.

It is interesting to read the list of those who liked post 1128606. Some unexpected faces there. Have a nice day, gentlemen.

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## Armstrong

Joe Shearer said:


> Speculative history is all very interesting, but it belongs to the sphere of historical romances. Pakistan and her western patrons put India under sanctions long enough; some of us lived right through that, professionally speaking. It hurt us, it never stopped us.
> 
> As for the rest of your speculation and the dubious language you have used, no doubt there is grief and the hatred of a loser at the core of it. As they say in some other language, "Tout comprendre c'est tout pardonner". Carry on, chaps.
> 
> It is interesting to read the list of those who liked post 1128606. Some unexpected faces there. Have a nice day, gentlemen.



You do realize that you've just replied to a thread that hasn't seen activity for more than 6 months now ! 

If retirement has given you so much extra time why don't you take Bhabi - my Sister-in-Law - on a World Cruise instead ?


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## Joe Shearer

somebozo said:


> So was Lenin and Stalin and so was Soviet union self sufficent in missles and aerospace. That did not protect Soviet Union from balkanization.
> 
> 
> 
> THe same pain you had about east pakistan. Massive abuses of Human rights and repression of sovergien identity.



What repression of 'sovergien' identity are you talking about?

It is interesting to see your equation of your position on Kashmir with our position on east Pakistan. I take it that this is tacit admission that you wish to interfere in the internal affairs of a part of the Indian state, and use whatever means, including covert means, to draw them into full-fledged rebellion.



Armstrong said:


> You do realize that you've just replied to a thread that hasn't seen activity for more than 6 months now !
> 
> If retirement has given you so much extra time why don't you take Bhabi - my Sister-in-Law - on a World Cruise instead ?



No money. Looking at old posts and threads on PDF is much, much cheaper.



Joe Shearer said:


> What repression of 'sovergien' identity are you talking about?
> 
> It is interesting to see your equation of your position on Kashmir with our position on east Pakistan. I take it that this is tacit admission that you wish to interfere in the internal affairs of a part of the Indian state, and use whatever means, including covert means, to draw them into full-fledged rebellion.
> 
> 
> 
> No money. Looking at old posts and threads on PDF is much, much cheaper.



And there are six people looking at this thread at this moment.

Besides, I've just walked out of the Moderate Voices of Jammu, Kashmir and Ladakh. Can't take the hypocrisy of both sides any more. So, lots of free time.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Armstrong said:


> You do realize that you've just replied to a thread that hasn't seen activity for more than 6 months now !
> 
> If retirement has given you so much extra time why don't you take Bhabi - my Sister-in-Law - on a World Cruise instead ?



you must really hate the woman


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## Joe Shearer

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> you must really hate the woman



For your post to be a proper insult, you have to be referring to his bhabhi. Thank you, and we shall meet at Philippi.


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## Kabira

Ganga said:


> A minister of Indira Gandhi's cabinet betrayed India's "war objectives" to the Central Intelligence Agency in December 1971, causing an abrupt end to the Bangladesh war under vicious US armtwisting.
> 
> This is the highlight of the book CIA's Eye on South Asia by journalist Anuj Dhar. Published by Delhi-based Manas Publications, which is facing government's ire for coming out with a book on the R&AW, the book compiles declassified CIA records on India and her neighbours. It specifically spotlights what arguably has been India's biggest spy scandal.
> 
> In the run up to the 1971 India Pakistan war over what was then East Pakistan (now Bangladesh), The New York Times first hinted at the presence of a CIA operative in the Indian government. By December The Washington Post had reported that US President Richard Nixon's South Asia policy was being guided by "reports from a source close to Mrs. Gandhi."
> 
> Records and telecons declassified recently - but not properly explained up till now - show that a dramatic turnaround came on December 6 when a CIA operative, whom Dhar pins down as a minister of the Indira Cabinet, leaked out India's "war objectives" to the agency. *Prime Minister Gandhi told Union Cabinet that apart from liberating Bangladesh, India intended to take over a strategically important part of the Pakistan Occupied Kashmir and go for the total annihilation of Pakistan's armed forces so that Pakistan "never attempts to challenge India in the future."
> *
> When he came to know of the CIA report, a furious Nixon blurted out that "this woman [Indira Gandhi] suckered us," thinking that Mrs. Gandhi had promised him that India won't attack East Pakistan - not to speak of targeting West Pakistan and ***. "But let me tell you, she's going to pay," he told his National Security Advisor Dr Henry Kissinger even as he tried to leak out the CIA report to give her bad press.
> 
> The CIA went on assess that fulfillment of India's "war objectives" might lead to "the emergence of centrifugal forces which could shatter West Pakistan into as many as three or four separate countries."
> 
> As a direct result of the operative's information, the Nixon administration went on an overdrive to save West Pakistan from a massive Indian assault. Because the President felt that "international morality will be finished - the United Nations will be finished - if you adopt the principle that because a country is democratic and big it can do what the hell it pleases."
> 
> Nixon personally threatened the USSR with a "major confrontation" between the superpowers should the Soviets failed to stop the Indians from going into West Pakistan. Kissinger secretly met Chinese Permanent Representative at the UN to apprise him of the CIA operative's report and rub in that what India was planning to do with Pakistan with the Soviet backing could turn out to be a "dress rehearsal" of what they might do to China.
> 
> Dhar quotes in the book the official records showing that USSR's First Deputy Foreign Minister Vasily Kuznetsov visited Delhi after Nixon's threat and told the "Indians to confine their objectives to East Pakistan" and "not to try and take any part of West Pakistan, including Azad Kashmir" as "Moscow was concerned about the possibility of a great power confrontation over the subcontinent." Kuznetsov also extracted a guarantee from Prime Minister Gandhi that India will not attack West Pakistan. This decision was promptly conveyed to Nixon. On 16 December 1971 when Nixon was told that India had declared a ceasefire, he exulted: "We have made it it's the Russians working for us.*" Kissinger congratulated him for saving West Pakistan - India's main target, as per the operative's report to the CIA.*
> 
> Dhar repudiates recent assertion by a former Indian Navy chief that showing up of America's biggest nuclear powered carrier into the Bay of Bengal during the war had something to do with the accidental destruction of a US plane in Dhaka during an Indian strafing. "Declassified records make it unambiguously clear that the month-long show of strength by the USS Enterprise and accompanying flotilla was a byproduct of the CIA operative's reports," he writes, reproducing chunks from official records detailing how Nixon ordered a naval task force towards the subcontinent to "scare off" India from attacking West Pakistan.
> 
> In subsequent years, former Prime Minister Morarji Desai, and two deputy PMs - Jagjivan Ram and Y B Chavan - were alleged to be the CIA operative active during the 1971 war. However, all such charges lacked any substantiation because there was no confirmation whether or not such an operative ever existed. As such no constructive discussion on the issue ever took off. This has changed now given the unassailable evidence in the form of US records making it clear that the CIA had a "reliable" agent operating out of the Indian cabinet in 1971.
> 
> In declassified records the name of the operative has been censored because the CIA Director has "statutory obligations to protect from disclosure [the Agency's] intelligence sources." Dhar writes: "Naming the Indian operative even after so many years will adversely impact the Indo-US relations, and hit the Agency's prospects of recruiting new informants."
> 
> However, he suggests that Indian government may have known the identity of the operative. "R&AW under the most capable R. N. Kao could not have missed the reference to the 'source close to Mrs. Gandhi' and must have dug deeper," he writes, adding that in 1972 Mrs. Gandhi herself charged that "she had information that the CIA had become active in India".
> 
> More pertinently, Dhar quotes from the declassified record of a 5 October 1972 meeting between Indian Foreign Minister Swaran Singh and US Secretary of State William Rogers. During the meeting, Singh asserted that "CIA has been in contact with people in India in 'abnormal ways.'" and that India had information that "proceedings of Congress Working Committee were known to US officials within two hours of meetings".
> 
> End the secrecy: CIA Records Take Lid Off High Treason By Indira Cabinet Minister




At the end sikhs annihilated her

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## Trev

save_ghenda said:


> At the end sikhs annihilated her


I love this picture.


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## 474474

Trev said:


> I love this picture.


omg so cute


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## JonAsad

We know that- we know indian nature and intentions- thats why we maintain aggressive status quo with india- so the war monger indians dont take any lineancy as a sign of weakness and execute a mass invasion-

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## Cruizer

Jit said:


> Pakistani seem so scared of a woman that's been dead for decades. I thought they wanted to follow Islam which is supposed to teach respect for dead and living.


You coward Indian-American,
Pakistan is the only country in this world who suffering and fighting against terrorisam against these following countries:
USA
India
Afghanistan
Iran

All these countries supporting terror against Pakistan. And Pakistan lost 65.000,- since 9/11 happened! That happened WAR ON TERROR. 

India are so coward in this world that even their schools, collages and universaties even got subjacts "How to blame Pakistan"

A little blast in India then, all Indians crying like little baby.

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## zootinali

Cruizer said:


> You coward Indian-American,
> *Pakistan is the only country in this world who suffering and fighting against terrorisam against these following countries:*
> USA
> India
> Afghanistan
> Iran
> 
> All these countries supporting terror against Pakistan. And Pakistan lost 65.000,- since 9/11 happened! That happened WAR ON TERROR.
> 
> India are so coward in this world that even their schools, collages and universaties even got subjacts "How to blame Pakistan"
> 
> *A little blast in India then, all Indians crying like little baby*.



Blasts are not common in India, no ,? We are usually peaceful and progressive, that's why even a little blast makes us cry like little babies.
"Pakistan is only country in this world who suffering and fighting against terrorisam" WHY?? Do you have any clue?

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## Cruizer

zootinali said:


> Blasts are not common in India, no ,? We are usually peaceful and progressive, that's why even a little blast makes us cry like little babies.
> "Pakistan is only country in this world who suffering and fighting against terrorisam" WHY?? Do you have any clue?


We know all about how "PEACEFUL" you Indians are


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## Jit

Cruizer said:


> You coward Indian-American,
> Pakistan is the only country in this world who suffering and fighting against terrorisam against these following countries:
> USA
> India
> Afghanistan
> Iran
> 
> All these countries supporting terror against Pakistan. And Pakistan lost 65.000,- since 9/11 happened! That happened WAR ON TERROR.
> 
> India are so coward in this world that even their schools, collages and universaties even got subjacts "How to blame Pakistan"
> 
> A little blast in India then, all Indians crying like little baby.



your own government leaders and military and press have admitted that Pakistan sponsors terrorists. Your own government only 10 days ago published national action plan against terrorism which clearly identifies how Pakistan's madrassas are creating terrorists.

and here you are blaming everyone else! Your country wants our money, gets upset when don't give it and still you call us cowards! 

get a grip on reality.


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## Cruizer

Jit said:


> your own government leaders and military and press have admitted that Pakistan sponsors terrorists. Your own government only 10 days ago published national action plan against terrorism which clearly identifies how Pakistan's madrassas are creating terrorists.
> 
> and here you are blaming everyone else! Your country wants our money, gets upset when don't give it and still you call us cowards!
> 
> get a grip on reality.


Are you sure Indian-American?


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## Jit

@cruiser - what are you unsure about? the moneys given to Pakistan in aid and material runs into tens of billions!


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## A1Kaid

Pres. Nixon was a staunch anti-Communist and his opposition with India was largely due to the fact that India was an ally of the Soviet Union. I don't know whether Nixon was pro-Pakistan but he was definitely in support of Pakistan during his tenure in the early 70's.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Irfan Baloch said:


> but a Sikh bodyguard invaded her body with multiple bullets lol
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @waz @BATMAN @batmannow please forgive me I cant find a better picture





OUCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 



waz said:


> Nixon did say she was going to pay, who would have thought it was through the hands that once swore to defend her. How the mighty fell.



the witch got what was coming to her.....the last few moments of her rule consisted of emergency rule, panic and no light at the end of the tunnel 

that is her legacy

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## Hyperion

Dude, that was nastyyyyyyyyy......... I, however, do like the way the artist has captured the 'moment'.........  



Irfan Baloch said:


> but a Sikh bodyguard invaded her body with multiple bullets lol
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @waz @BATMAN @batmannow please forgive me I cant find a better picture

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Hyperion said:


> Dude, that was nastyyyyyyyyy......... I, however, do like the way the artist has captured the 'moment'.........



even got her glasses as they were falling off her face towards the ground 

what a detail

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## Hyperion

Exactly that was epic!  ...... moreover, if you look closely enough (with a little bit imagination), you'll see her face upwards with her final words "haye bhagwan, Pakistan nay marwa diya"! 



Abu Zolfiqar said:


> even got her glasses as they were falling off her face towards the ground
> 
> what a detail

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## Abu Zolfiqar

ares said:


> She might have gotten what was coming for her, but not before, she showed Pakistan its place.
> Sitting in the American laps, Pakistan had really been itching for a fight since 64, she gave a good one to your Gernails...the pain of which still linger on.
> 
> *The fact that she single handedly de-masculinised..the mighty warriors at Pakistan's helm and leaders of western world, speaks volumes about her competence.
> *
> P.S. Emergency was in 1975, 9 yrs before she was assassinated.



More pressingly, Mohammad Ali Jinnah de-masculated (wtf is "de-masculinised") the "akhand bharat" bozos who to this very day are still butt-hurt that they lost their pride and false sense of glory ONCE AGAIN after centuries of other humiliations.

I dont think there's much pain in knowing that a far away land that is so culturally, linguistically and ethnically different is now taking over West bengal to the point that the same people who celebrated 1971 are now having abuses hurled at them by the so-called people they "liberated" 

It's okay - maybe you can apply the AFSPA card on West bengal too when you lose a bit of grip of things. You may recall "56 inch modi" the mickey-mouse hat man's predecessor proclaimed to your fellow indians that the "single largest threat to india's security" comes "from within"

seems your priorities are in order

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## syedali73



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## Abu Zolfiqar

ares said:


> *demasculinised" is a past tense form of "demasculinise": to remove the testicles of a male animal. *
> http://www.memidex.com/demasculinised
> (And not Demascuclated it is emasculated)
> Jinnah broke apart his own country, where as Indira Gandhi split open an enemy nation.



He broke apart an artificial construct which was under control of the british. 

I think today we have the afore-mentioned (refer to my previous post) elements doing our bidding in india already. Of course india accuses us of doing what indira took credit for in 71 (before getting her brains splattered by Sikh nationalists) 

as for the whole testicles thing - i think that BBC report about the standard size condoms not fitting indian "men" speaks enough volumes about the general manhood of your ilk.




> If there were no pain, then you people still wouldn't be hurling petty abuses on lady, who is been dead for forty years.



just paying respects to the brave Sikhs who did our job for us 



> You might wanna check that again, Bangladesh has a secular constitution, *It is People's republic of Bangladesh and not Islamic Republic of Bangladesh...unlike before.*


*

Turkiye has a secular constitution but it 98% Muslim. Your point?*




> Majority population of country being Muslim..does not make the country Islamic.



doesn't matter.....whatever political belief system works best in countries in which they operate, no need to fix anything that isnt broken

now ironically - Nepal IS indeed a "hindu republic" and despite that fact - the average Nepali has such "kind" words about your country


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## ares

Abu Zolfiqar

You were asking, where is the pain? Here is the pain.

syedali73

Did I hurt your feelings?

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## syedali73

Use of derogatory terms (such as 'demasculinise' i.e. castrate or *خصی* ) for an entire nation is against the rules of the forum. Debate but with decency. Hate but with style.


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## ares

syedali73 said:


> Use of derogatory terms (such as 'demasculinise') *for an entire nation* is against the rules of the forum. Debate but with decency. Hate but with style.



Either put on your reading glasses or improve your english.


"The fact that she single handedly de-masculinised..the mighty warriors *at Pakistan's helm "

Now explain it to me, what do you understand from the above quote, I ll let you know, if you need an appointment with an ophthalmologist or a tuition teacher.*

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## syedali73

People *at the helm* represent not self but the nation and this phenomena is not restricted to Pakistan. Someone needs basic lessons in political science and more so in basic manners and etiquette of discussion.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

ares said:


> Either put on your reading glasses or improve your english.
> 
> 
> "The fact that she single handedly de-masculinised..the mighty warriors *at Pakistan's helm "
> 
> Now explain it to me, what do you understand from the above quote, I ll let you know, if you need an appointment with an ophthalmologist or a tuition teacher.*



there's a lot more where that came from


"integral part of india"







Meet the young men who make Pakistani flags in India’s Kashmir - Quartz


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## ares

syedali73 said:


> People *at the helm* represent not self but the nation and this phenomena is not restricted to Pakistan. Someone needs basic lessons in political science and more so in basic manners and etiquette of discussion.



Clearly a tuition teacher it is.

Helm is a shipping term, it is wheel, which is used drive the rudder.There is only person, who is at helm of a ship.

It does not represent the entire nation or population..especially not Pakistani nation..which was not even allowed to elect its leaders and was under military dictatorship.

Please give up the selfrighteous act.. biased person like you will teach me etiquettes of discussion?

*Is it ok to call Indian prime minister a witch?*

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## xyxmt

Still not too late, Modi Bhadur can do it now


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## ito

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> there's a lot more where that came from
> 
> 
> "integral part of india"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meet the young men who make Pakistani flags in India’s Kashmir - Quartz




If I start showing how many Pakistani flags are burned in Baluchistan, you will start crying.

The point is black sheep are everywhere.

@On topic

I would not have supported Indra's plan of mass invasion of Pakistan, but, given that Pakistan was defeated in 1971, it was the time to wrestle Azad Kashmir and GB from Pakistan. A great opportunity lost for India.

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## vegav

I dont understand why people do not realize a fundamental fact,the opinion of valley kashmiris is irrelevant.

If the Kashmiris truly want azaadi,they should be ready to trifurcate J&K and make Jammu a separate state & Ladakh a union territory and this will leave Kashmir valley independent but with only 20% the area of the total state and with very low political power.

Jammu also will have Udhampur/Poonch/Rajaori until Kishtwar.Kashmiris will become non persona grata if that happens.

If this was not the case,Kashmiris would have gone full on in search for separatism.

PS: Even the muslims of the Jammu region are of north indian or punjabi castes and do not share the separatist views of the valley muslims who are likely of iranian/afghan/central asian ancestry.

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## Irfan Baloch

Hyperion said:


> Dude, that was nastyyyyyyyyy......... I, however, do like the way the artist has captured the 'moment'.........


I am looking for its animated version with added sound effects and voice over and will share when I get it

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## third eye

syedali73 said:


> View attachment 230766



Both existed during her Dad's time too.

Only one is an Islamic republic while the other is a Peoples Republic.

The difference does not end here.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

ito said:


> If I start showing how many Pakistani flags are burned in Baluchistan, you will start crying.
> 
> The point is black sheep are everywhere.
> 
> @On topic
> 
> I would not have supported Indra's plan of mass invasion of Pakistan, but, given that Pakistan was defeated in 1971, it was the time to wrestle Azad Kashmir and GB from Pakistan. A great opportunity lost for India.



90% of occupied Kashmir consists of black sheep then - whereas out of all the 28 districts in Balochistan, only 2 of them have a small presence of those bands of marxist thugs which YOUR 'country' is supporting

and i'm a MAN, i dont cry. 

You can keep dreaming about taking G-B or AZAD Kashmir (places where anti indian sentiment is as high as it is in the restive valley (esp. Sopore/Sri Nagar/Shopian etc. etc.). Just dont get butt-hurt when we turn your wet dreams into nightmares.

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## Kyusuibu Honbu

Meanwhile in BD

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## ito

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> 90% of occupied Kashmir consists of black sheep then - whereas out of all the 28 districts in Balochistan, only 2 of them have a small presence of those bands of marxist thugs which YOUR 'country' is supporting
> 
> and i'm a MAN, i dont cry.
> 
> You can keep dreaming about taking G-B or AZAD Kashmir (places where anti indian sentiment is as high as it is in the restive valley (esp. Sopore/Sri Nagar/Shopian etc. etc.). Just dont get butt-hurt when we turn your wet dreams into nightmares.



Surprising that you know very little about Kashmir in spite of you being very active on Kashmir threads. There is no militancy or any anti government movements in any parts of Jammu or Ladhak (90% of land mass of J&K). That leaves Kashmir Valley. Even in Kashmir valley 99% of militancy and anti government rallies are confined to in and around Srinagar city.

Forget Pakistan flag, now a day in some parts of Srinagar ISIS flag started appearing more often and sometime along with Pakistan flag. This means Pakistan is again trying to revive terrorism across Valley. I can say this can prove to be very costly to Pakistan and your economy given that Modi is at helm. 

As on GB and Azad Kashmir, they are integral part of India and are under forceful occupation of Pakistan.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

ito said:


> Surprising that you know very little about Kashmir in spite of you being very active on Kashmir threads. There is no militancy or any anti government movements in any parts of Jammu or Ladhak (90% of land mass of J&K). That leaves Kashmir Valley. Even in Kashmir valley 99% of militancy and anti government rallies are confined to in and around Srinagar city.



the PDP - which was voted in by Kashmiris to keep OUT the BJP - proposes self-autonomy for Kashmir so therefore there's no immediate need for any mass-scale uprising. Anti-indian sentiment was, is and always will be high however. Especially this is in the case of the Valley and other areas of the Muslim majority region. You also forgot to mention Baramulla as well but I wont go into districts line by line;



> Forget Pakistan flag, now a day in some parts of Srinagar ISIS flag started appearing more often and sometime along with Pakistan flag. This means Pakistan is again trying to revive terrorism across Valley. I can say this can prove to be very costly to Pakistan and your economy given that Modi is at helm.



keyboard jingoists of india like you make me laugh...what will moo-di do at the helm except empty, hollow slogans to a bunch of naive brain-washed indians? 

by the way, 1 or 2 extremely isolated incidents mean nothing.....there is no ISIS terrorist network in Kashmir. There are the indian occupation forces (a.k.a. "sissies") who are considered by Kashmiri to be the terrorist force in that area.



> As on GB and Azad Kashmir, they are integral part of India and are under forceful occupation of Pakistan.



Tis never a crime to dream.


----------



## ito

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> the PDP - which was voted in by Kashmiris to keep OUT the BJP - proposes self-autonomy for Kashmir so therefore there's no immediate need for any mass-scale uprising. Anti-indian sentiment was, is and always will be high however. Especially this is in the case of the Valley and other areas of the Muslim majority region. You also forgot to mention Baramulla as well but I wont go into districts line by line;
> 
> 
> 
> keyboard jingoists of india like you make me laugh...what will moo-di do at the helm except empty, hollow slogans to a bunch of naive brain-washed indians?
> 
> by the way, 1 or 2 extremely isolated incidents mean nothing.....there is no ISIS terrorist network in Kashmir. There are the indian occupation forces (a.k.a. "sissies") who are considered by Kashmiri to be the terrorist force in that area.
> 
> 
> 
> Tis never a crime to dream.



You can go district by district...I would like to see how much you know about Kashmir

Again Muslim majority doesn't mean they love Pakistan. India too has 180 million Muslims. It doesn't mean they love Pakistan or would like to live in Pakistan. And, stop equating Kashmir to Islam. 

As regarding the other part of your post. Tis never a crime to dream.


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## axisofevil

I feel India finally has a good leader in a long time. Moreover, RAW has a capable leader since Kao.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

PlanetWarrior said:


> 1. Kashmiris aren't flooding across Pakistan's borders seeking refuge from India.
> 2. From internet reports which I read, the Pakistani military was reeking havoc in East Pakistan. Even if India did arm the insurgents, credit needs to be given to the Pakistani military and political leadership for opening that door of opportunity for India. The claim is that you guys treated Bangladesh as an inferior colony of Pakistan. Agreed that the logistics of an East and West Pakistan did not make it a feasible idea. That still doesn't address the claims of the Bangladeshi that Pakistan was ruthless in its administration of that area.
> 3. Who knows what history will record in 20 years time. The possibility of it being recorded that the FATA area was subject to a civil war after which the inhabitants were liberated exists. After all, it is usually the victors who write history



1.) But they are being mass butchered by a force that is not considered as welcome so it's not much different at all. It's no wonder that so many indian soldiers are begging for leave to avoid duties especially in the restive valley where everyday brave Kashmiris defy draconian laws, curfews (AFSPA) etc. 

2.) It was an uphill battle. Curiously india has a habit of propagating numbers which are so ridiculous (e.g. "3 million bengalis killed by Pakistani forces") -- claims so ridiculous that one cant help but laugh

3.) There is no civil war in FATA. Take it from someone who is from the tribal areas himself. 

k thanks



ito said:


> You can go district by district...I would like to see how much you know about Kashmir
> 
> Again Muslim majority doesn't mean they love Pakistan. India too has 180 million Muslims. It doesn't mean they love Pakistan or would like to live in Pakistan. And, stop equating Kashmir to Islam.
> 
> As regarding the other part of your post. Tis never a crime to dream.



like the back of my hand.....I know a great deal about iOK as well. Feel free to discuss here or PM me if you have questions. And Kashmir is a Muslim majority region which has zero ethnical ties to the indian republic. OBVIOUSLY given the past several weeks if that message hasnt been drilled into the minds of indians that Kashmiris do not want to be a part of hindustan - then clearly a lot of obtuse minds exist across the border 

I never insinuated that all Kashmiris are necessarily pro-Pakistan so i dont require someone like you or your people to misconstrue my words



Syama Ayas said:


> Meanwhile in BD









cheers

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## nair

6 year old thread revived..........


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## Lotus_stalk




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## Kyusuibu Honbu

nair said:


> 6 year old thread revived..........


Lol, i got a response and negative rating for a year old post.

Didn't realize my posts have such long life and impact this deep

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## Viking 63

it is very old thread, stop this now.


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## WhyCry

First line of defence.... More like overload of foolishness.

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## Arefin007

Kashmir getting independence from India soon Inshallah

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## Hannibal of Carthage

Arefin007 said:


> Kashmir getting independence from India soon Inshallah


What? Why are supporting Pakistan? You should be supporting India we gave you people Independence


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## Arefin007

Hannibal of Carthage said:


> What? Why are supporting Pakistan? You should be supporting India we gave you people Independence


No we didn't want independence. You Indians used Mukhti Bahini terrorists against us and took help from East Pakistan Hindus to break Pakistan I hate you Indians


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## Hannibal of Carthage

Arefin007 said:


> No we didn't want independence. You Indians used Mukhti Bahini terrorists against us and took help from East Pakistan Hindus to break Pakistan I hate you Indians


Do you even know how West Pakistanis treated you guys, discriminated against you people and exploited your resources for their own gains? How could you support Pakistan after they massacred 3 million of your countrymen? You should thank us for separating you folks from Pakistan


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## Prawnsroo

Was she actually related to M Ghandi? Such a non non-violent woman and her hate for Pakistan is shocking


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## Arefin007

Hannibal of Carthage said:


> Do you even know how West Pakistanis treated you guys, discriminated against you people and exploited your resources for their own gains? How could you support Pakistan after they massacred 3 million of your countrymen? You should thank us for separating you folks from Pakistan


You are lying spreading false propaganda. I might have some disagreements with brother but I would never side with an enemy state against him. India is enemy state and those who fought against Pakistan in '71 are traitors Now shut up and get out of my face Indian


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## Hannibal of Carthage

Arefin007 said:


> You are lying spreading false propaganda. I might have some disagreements with brother but I would never side with an enemy state against him. India is enemy state and those who fought against Pakistan in '71 are traitors Now shut up and get out of my face Indian


Yeah sure lol. What's ur age btw You have BD flag but you don't seem to support Bangladesh secession


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## Arefin007

Hannibal of Carthage said:


> Yeah sure lol. What's ur age btw You have BD flag but you don't seem to support Bangladesh secession


I am a schookid you don't have to know my age. Sylhet voted for Pakistan in '47 you know so I will support whomever I like none of your concern. I may not be mature enough but you can't make me support evil India I am not that foolish. I am not falling for Indian propaganda

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## SpArK

Arefin007 said:


> Kashmir getting independence from India soon Inshallah

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## Joe Shearer

Prawnsroo said:


> Was she actually related to M Ghandi? Such a non non-violent woman and her hate for Pakistan is shocking



No. She was not related. And the spelling of the name - both names - is Gandhi. It is this kind of slight that leads us to ask why you lack respect for the founder of our nation. If you do lack respect, you could at least confine it to your own mind.


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## Prawnsroo

Joe Shearer said:


> No. She was not related. And the spelling of the name - both names - is Gandhi. It is this kind of slight that leads us to ask why you lack respect for the founder of our nation. If you do lack respect, you could at least confine it to your own mind.



I do apologise if I have offended you or any other India member with this post.


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## Joe Shearer

Prawnsroo said:


> I do apologise if I have offended you or any other India member with this post.



No harm done. Your response makes it clear it was inadvertent. I am sorry if I sounded bad-tempered.

Now you may take comfort in the fact that the young Parsi who married Indira Gandhi originally spelt his name the way you spelt it the first time - Ghandy. That is usually a Parsi variant of the same name. He was a freedom fighter, who was active in Congress party politics and also picked up the burden of looking after the Nehru household during the long intervals when J. L. was in jail. Kamala Nehru was a very sick person towards the end of her life, and he was a great support to the family. Mahatma Gandhi got to know the young man and became quite fond of him, and suggested (I hope playfully) that he change the spelling of his name to match his own. 

Some scumbags took this change in quite another way. I don't want to perpetuate their filthy suggestions (it has to do with the youngster being a Muslim, not a Parsi - to them, a capital offence), and I won't repeat it here. 

So in a back handed kind of way, you were actually right about the name!


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Arefin007 said:


> Kashmir getting independence from India soon Inshallah


Inshallah

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## Prawnsroo

Joe Shearer said:


> No harm done. Your response makes it clear it was inadvertent. I am sorry if I sounded bad-tempered.
> 
> Now you may take comfort in the fact that the young Parsi who married Indira Gandhi originally spelt his name the way you spelt it the first time - Ghandy. That is usually a Parsi variant of the same name. He was a freedom fighter, who was active in Congress party politics and also picked up the burden of looking after the Nehru household during the long intervals when J. L. was in jail. Kamala Nehru was a very sick person towards the end of her life, and he was a great support to the family. Mahatma Gandhi got to know the young man and became quite fond of him, and suggested (I hope playfully) that he change the spelling of his name to match his own.
> 
> Some scumbags took this change in quite another way. I don't want to perpetuate their filthy suggestions (it has to do with the youngster being a Muslim, not a Parsi - to them, a capital offence), and I won't repeat it here.
> 
> So in a back handed kind of way, you were actually right about the name!



But I never spelt the name with a y - you are confusing me with someone I think.

I have restricted activity on forum at the moment so won't be able to write back on your wall.


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## Joe Shearer

Prawnsroo said:


> But I never spelt the name with a y - you are confusing me with someone I think.
> 
> I have restricted activity on forum at the moment so won't be able to write back on your wall.



Both Ghandy and Ghandi were used.


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## django

Joe Shearer said:


> Both Ghandy and Ghandi were used.


My dear chap what salient information you have conveyed, I was not aware of this most relevant information.


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## wiseone2

Arefin007 said:


> You are lying spreading false propaganda. I might have some disagreements with brother but I would never side with an enemy state against him. India is enemy state and those who fought against Pakistan in '71 are traitors Now shut up and get out of my face Indian



it is not like bangldeshis of most political orientations are signing up to join pakistan
even west pakistanis think of you as good riddance


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## Joe Shearer

django said:


> My dear chap what salient inform Theseation you have conveyed, I was not aware of this most relevant information.




I know, I know....if I were to try and supply all the most relevant information of which you are not aware, I would land up re-writing the Encyclopaedia Britannica. 

All teachers dread the prospect of teaching their backward students. Only a most dedicated sense of duty and commitment to bring up the slow to learn persuades us to continue.


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## django

Joe Shearer said:


> All teachers dreaded the prospect of teaching a *remedial such as myself*. Only a most dedicated sense of duty and commitment to bring up the slow to learn persuaded them to continue their good and gracious efforts in regards to my remedial self.


Joe, Joe...Joe my dear chap do not be too harsh on yourself I really fear for thee.


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## Arefin007

wiseone2 said:


> it is not like bangldeshis of most political orientations are signing up to join pakistan
> even west pakistanis think of you as good riddance


Listen now I am saying this first and last time I will support all Muslim countries be it Pakistan, Iran, Syria, Libya. Its our holy duty to support Muslim brothers and sisters in need. We have been commanded by Allah swt in his book the Holy Quran We have to obey Him. I will never support pagan nations Long live Muslim brotherhood


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## wiseone2

Arefin007 said:


> Listen now I am saying this first and last time I will support all Muslim countries be it Pakistan, Iran, Syria, Libya. Its our holy duty to support Muslim brothers and sisters in need. We have been commanded by Allah swt in his book the Holy Quran We have to obey Him. I will never support pagan nations Long live Muslim brotherhood



i have full respect for your religious sentiments. one of these days you will wake up and find your beliefs are not a guide for statecraft


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## Joe Shearer

django said:


> Joe, Joe...Joe my dear chap do not be too harsh on yourself I really fear for thee.



Part of the job. We have to suffer the lame ducks. Look what I'm doing now. 



wiseone2 said:


> i have full respect for your religious sentiments. one of these days you will wake up and find your beliefs are not a guide for statecraft



The last ten words were quite superfluous.


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## django

Joe Shearer said:


> Dear Sir Django, I am thoroughly lacking in the ability to comprehend, I envy thee Sir Django


Joe I suggest you try fish-oil, I have been told it is of the most use for senile remedial's.The perfect remedy for your good self.


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## Joe Shearer

django said:


> Joe I suggest you try fish-oil, I have been told it is of the most use for senile remedial's.The perfect remedy for your good self.



No thanks, not again. I tried it and landed up having to read you. Not much of a good ending.


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## django

Joe Shearer said:


> Thank you Sir Django for thy erudite advice.


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## Joe Shearer

django said:


> Thank you, dear teacher, I know that someday I will sound less like a half-wit, thanks to your patience and perseverance



Nice.

Now you can rewrite the history of 1965, also of 1947.


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## django

Joe Shearer said:


> Nice.
> 
> Now you can rewrite the history of 1965, also of 1947.


Which part, the part of Major General Prasad fleeing... Joe, Joe..Joe it has been almost half a century since 71, I think the time has come for you folks to stop swinging from the chandeliers, you folks need to remember this time it will be very different, we will be on our OWN ground, not to mention our three digit nuclear arsenal, battle hardened army..........the flag of Monotheism will be raised above the Lok Sabha.


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## Joe Shearer

django said:


> Which part, the part of Major General Prasad fleeing... Joe, Joe..Joe it has been almost half a century since 71, I think the time has come for you folks to stop swinging from the chandeliers, you folks need to remember this time it will be very different, we will be on our OWN ground, not to mention our three digit nuclear arsenal, battle hardened army..........the flag of Monotheism will be raised above the Lok Sabha.



Oh dear. And my pupil slips back further with every post. Yes, it will be very different from '47, '65 and '71 if your heroes achieve anything but looking foolish.What an army! Not a single victory against an external enemy.


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## django

Joe Shearer said:


> Dear Django sir I am petrified of war with Pak army, please persuade your brave and valiant countrymen to spare this gentle old chap, for I am the John Dayal of PDF rather than the hawk like G.D Bakshi. I beg thee Django sir


Not to worry old boy, Pakistan army soldiers are valiant men of honour .Rest assured you will not be harmed.


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## wiseone2

Joe Shearer said:


> Part of the job. We have to suffer the lame ducks. Look what I'm doing now.
> 
> 
> 
> The last ten words were quite superfluous.


In what way ?


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## Joe Shearer

django said:


> Not to worry old boy. You may be more mature and sensible, and I may be a stupid oaf who can't write English, but we won't fight; I prefer being brave on PDF., I will send soldiers to fight you. Pakistan army soldiers are valiant men of honour, although I am myself neither valiant nor a man nor have honour. .Rest assured you will not be harmed by me. I will find some roughnecks tough enough to handle you.



I doubt it. I am by origin an east Bengali Hindu. Remember what your valiant men of honour did to my unarmed and defenceless brethren?



wiseone2 said:


> In what way ?



Your post is good enough without them.


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## django

Joe Shearer said:


> I doubt it. I am by origin an east Bengali Hindu. Remember what your valiant men of honour did to my unarmed and defenceless brethren?


Propaganda and false flag operations!


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## Joe Shearer

django said:


> Don't worry about that. Nobody will get to know. I am like many others, expert at propaganda and false flag operations!



I suppose we are done for then.

This is quite fun, and a reminder that a wise teacher may learn from the most backward pupil.


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## django

Joe Shearer said:


> I will be happy to resume this conversation after my knee operation, what can I say Django sir, I have always had weak knees, so one can can imagine at my advanced age......
> 
> This is quite fun, and a reminder that a unwise old chap may learn from the most able Django sir.


Not to worry old boy, hope your operation is a success. Till then GOODBYE.


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## Joe Shearer

django said:


> Not to worry old boy, hope your operation is a success. I am to undergo a brain transplant myself, and hope to handle at least primary school level conversations after that. What a wonderful day that will be, for myself and for those I address today. I shall also take pains with my English lessons, and my lessons in manners, and learn the difference between friendly terms and cheeky impertinence. Till then GOODBYE. I promise not to write windy posts for at least the next 48 hours. ENJOY!



First the light relief, then the real thing.


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## django

Joe Shearer said:


> Before you go Django sir in old age I am becoming more senile by the day, I am being mocked daily due to my comments being perceived as brain flatulence by even those closest to me could an erudite and most knowledgeable fellow such as yourself good self recommend a most effective nootropic.Kudos Dango sir


Joe I will recommend you NZT though I suspect in your case EVEN that would have zero effect.Bye


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## Joe Shearer

django said:


> Joe I will recommend you NZT; it has worked very well for me, though since my treatment is not complete, I suspect in your case EVEN that would have zero effect. As you can see, I am still far from making much sense. My treatment continues. If my condition does not improve, there is some discussion of ECT, although a section among the doctors believe that my present condition may be due to such treatment having been tried earlier and having had very bad effects. I must rush now; my medical orderly is waiting to buckle me up again. Bye



Take heart and remember to be thankful for small mercies. At least the cell walls are sure to be padded, unless the hospital is completely inhuman. I wish you the best and hope for a successful outcome.


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## django

Joe Shearer said:


> Take heart and remember to be thankful for small mercies. At least the cell walls are sure to be padded, unless the hospital is completely inhuman. I wish you the best and hope for a successful outcome.


Joe, Joe....Joe you are a stubborn old man, I will give you that, however frankly speaking you have become repetitive and boring, so I will bid you farewell.


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## Joe Shearer

django said:


> Joe, Joe....Joe you are a tolerant old man, I will give you that, putting up with my behaving like such a jerk, however frankly speaking I have become repetitive and boring, and OTHER people must be getting fed up, so I will bid you farewell.



So sad. Just when I was getting the hang of this thing.


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## django

Joe Shearer said:


> Well in old age I am unable to grasp things physically and mentally,I do apologise Django sir


No need to apologise Joe, rather why not just log off, save those very few remaining neurons left for a rainy day.


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## Bharat Muslim

Ah! The Western sources! The gospel truth for Pakistanis!

@Kashmiri Pandit @Kaptaan



somebozo said:


> If India had another leader like Indra it would lead no where but self destruct and balkanized. Sooner or later it would grow weakers, sanctioned and every neighbouring state jumping in for a pie.


India faced such situation in 1991. India dealt with it and moved on. Tell something that hasn't been tested on India before.

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