# Major DNA ancestry database now correctly lists Pakistanis as Central Asian



## SingHee

In line with scientific research findings, people of Pakistan origin are now listed as Central Asian in one of the largest and most reputed commercially available ancestry DNA testing databases.

AncestryDNA now lists all ethnic Pakistanis in the Central Asia - South category, as this is now the accepted norm in scientific research papers. Following the same norms, Afghanistan and Tajikistan are also included in the same category. I had earlier also reported the scientific research findings and papers concerning Pakistan, but seeing it now included in a major commercial ancestry genetic test is quite interesting.

The personal DNA testing company adds the following specific details for the region:


> Between the foothills of the Himalayas and the Arabian Sea lies our Central Asia—South region, which includes much of Afghanistan and Pakistan. An important crossroads for ancient civilizations, the Silk Road’s Khyber Pass is located on the Afghan-Pakistani border. The region’s modern-day culture was shaped by the Arabic-Persian civilizations who arrived approximately 1,000 years ago, beginning its rich literary heritage. Today, it is an ethnically and linguistically diverse region that includes Punjabi, Pashtun, Tajik, and other peoples. However, many of its inhabitants share the practice of Islam, strong kinship ties, and a strong sense of familial honor.



*
Images depicting the geographic region*

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## PakSword

SingHee said:


> In line with scientific research findings, people of Pakistan origin are now correctly listed as Central Asian in one of the largest and most reputed commercially available ethnicity DNA testing databases.
> 
> AncestryDNA now lists all ethnic Pakistanis in the Central Asia - South category, as this is now the accepted norm in scientific research papers. Following the same norms, Afghanistan and Tajikistan are also included in the same category.
> 
> I had earlier also reported the scientific research findings and papers concerning Pakistan, but seeing it now included in a major commercial ancestry genetic tests is quite interesting.
> 
> The personal DNA testing company adds the following specific details for the region:
> 
> 
> *Images depicting the geographic region*.


That's good news.

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## GHALIB

so indus valley civilization has now become central asian ?

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## Baz

I was looking for this for a long time


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## SingHee

GHALIB said:


> so indus valley civilization has now become central asian ?



No, this only concerns the current inhabitants of Pakistan.

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## Samlee

Tight Slap On Desi Liberals Who Claim Pakistanis and Indians Are The Same

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## GHALIB

Samlee said:


> Tight Slap On Desi Liberals Who Claim Pakistanis and Indians Are The Same



tight slap ?

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## Cookie Monster

GHALIB said:


> so indus valley civilization has now become central asian ?


Ask urself genius...where is Indus? Where were all those settlements primarily found? It doesn't matter whether the name is Pakistan or Central Asia or whatever. It is u guys who are living with our borrowed name calling urself INDIA.

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## Talwar e Pakistan

I wouldn't say "correctly". Pakistanis aren't genetically Central Asian, neither is it accurate to group 1/4th of the world population into one category "South Asians/Indians". We are geographically South Asian, genetically we form our own cluster.

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## GHALIB

Cookie Monster said:


> Ask urself genius...where is Indus? Where were all those settlements primarily found? It doesn't matter whether the name is Pakistan or Central Asia or whatever. It is u guys who are living with our borrowed name calling urself INDIA.



indus valley people acquired central asian dna during turko mangol invasion

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## Azadkashmir

Pakistani came from mars and Zardari, by the way, is a rare species.

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## Cookie Monster

GHALIB said:


> indus valley people acquired central asian dna during turko mangol invasion


Mixing happened all over the world as civilizations grew, expanded, splintered, and coalesced over millennia. U would be hard pressed to find any "pure" race on Earth that doesn't have any mixing.

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## Max

It's upto us Pakistanis what we want to call ourselves. Geographically we border Central(Afghanistan), Southern(Bharat) and Western Asia (Iran). 

Officially Pakistan is consider part of Greater Middle east and Central Asia, Pakistan is also member of Central Asia Regional Economic Cooperation (CAREC).

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## Sine Nomine

Cookie Monster said:


> U would be hard pressed to find any "pure" race on Earth that doesn't have any mixing.


People of North Sentinel Island Andaman are pure race.

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## gangsta_rap

GHALIB said:


> indus valley people acquired central asian dna during turko mangol invasion




/\ kiddo hasn't read about the hephthalites and Ahmad Hassan Dani's comments on them

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## Talwar e Pakistan

GHALIB said:


> indus valley people acquired central asian dna during turko mangol invasion


Actually inaccurate, the "Turkic/Mongolian" genetic contribution is less than 2-3% to Pakistanis, but spikes in Burushos and Hazaras, though their numbers are not that great to affect the average. 

Secondly, this genetic component would be categorized under 'East Asian', not 'Central Asian'. This is highlighted in this data graph.






Our two main components are from Iranian Neolithic Farmers (IVC) and Indo-European migrants (Aryans). This is also similarly shared with NW and High-caste Indians though they have significantly less Indo-European admixture. 

When comparing Iron-age samples of the Indus Region (Vedic Age), we can see that genetically not much has changed except for a shift towards Central Asian/Steppe which can be explained by the Scythian/Kushan/Bactrian migrations that occurred.

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## B.K.N

GHALIB said:


> so indus valley civilization has now become central asian ?


Don't know whether IVC is South Asian or central Asian but one thing is for sure it's not Indian

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## Talwar e Pakistan

Brass Knuckles said:


> Don't know whether IVC is South Asian or central Asian but one thing is for sure it's not Indian


South Asian is solely a geographic term, so; in that sense, it is South Asian.

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## GHALIB

Brass Knuckles said:


> Don't know whether IVC is South Asian or central Asian but one thing is for sure it's not Indian



you have your beliefs , no problem . some people believe they are arab . that is their belief .


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## khanmubashir

GHALIB said:


> indus valley people acquired central asian dna during turko mangol invasion


actually it was much earlier Sonny 


the the original Aryan migration

most north Indians have y chromosome with central Asian genetic makers
distinct from South Indians

multiple international researches have proven this which included Indian scientists

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## Jackdaws

Nice. Does that mean Pak will be leaving SAARC?

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Does it require a DNA test to figure it out????

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## POTTER

khanmubashir said:


> actually it was much earlier Sonny
> 
> 
> the the original Aryan migration
> 
> most north Indians have y chromosome with central Asian genetic makers
> distinct from South Indians
> 
> multiple international researches have proven this which included Indian scientists


Nah. Even beharis are north indians, only punjabis, some rajisthani and kashmiris are similar to Pakistanis not others.


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## khanmubashir

POTTER said:


> N
> 
> Nah. Even beharis are north indians, only punjabis, some rajisthani and kashmiris are similar to Pakistanis not others.



according to yr rss chutya bhakts bs 

the geneticists don't condone yr misbelieves my child


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## SingHee

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> Does it require a DNA test to figure it out????



Yes, I'm afraid so, and have also included a link for anyone interested.

However, for general informational purposes, the company may allow non-tested users to browse through its public forums for any listed results from other users.

I can't confirm the above, but will have a look and update this message.

Link
https://www.ancestry.com/boards/topics.ancestry.ancestrydna/mb.ashx


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## Gandhi G in da house

Pakistanis are Central Asians not South Asians. Time for celebrations in Pakistan.


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## Cookie Monster

Sine Nomine said:


> People of North Sentinel Island Andaman are pure race.


Read again what I said...
"U would be *HARD PRESSED* to find a "pure" race without any mixing". This means that while it's not impossible...the exceptions are few. Those include any uncontacted tribes(whether on Andaman island or deep in the Amazon region).

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## khanmubashir

POTTER said:


> Nah. Even beharis are north indians, only punjabis, some rajisthani and kashmiris are similar to Pakistanis not others.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3769933/#!po=0.303030
this research paper is written by Indian scientist published in international journal read and reduce yr ignorance Sonny
here's the abstract
Most Indian groups descend from a mixture of two genetically divergent populations: Ancestral North Indians (ANI) related to Central Asians, Middle Easterners, Caucasians, and Europeans; and Ancestral South Indians (ASI) not closely related to groups outside the subcontinent. The date of mixture is unknown but has implications for understanding Indian history. We report genome-wide data from 73 groups from the Indian subcontinent

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## Nefarious

Good stuff. Whats with the butthurt, no need for ganga swampees to be upset.

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## GHALIB

Jackdaws said:


> Nice. Does that mean Pak will be leaving SAARC?



it looks so .


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## Gandhi G in da house

Jackdaws said:


> Nice. Does that mean Pak will be leaving SAARC?



But till recently I thought they were Arabs/Persians i.e. West Asian. This is news.

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## Kabira

It says central asia-south for Pakistan.


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## HttpError

@Indus Pakistan Your comments on this?

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## GHALIB

Nefarious said:


> Good stuff. Whats with the butthurt, no need for ganga swampees to be upset.



changez khan missed india , indians missed central asian train.


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## fitpOsitive

SingHee said:


> In line with scientific research findings, people of Pakistan origin are now correctly listed as Central Asian in one of the largest and most reputed commercially available ethnicity DNA testing databases.
> 
> AncestryDNA now lists all ethnic Pakistanis in the Central Asia - South category, as this is now the accepted norm in scientific research papers. Following the same norms, Afghanistan and Tajikistan are also included in the same category. I had earlier also reported the scientific research findings and papers concerning Pakistan, but seeing it now included in a major commercial ancestry genetic test is quite interesting.
> 
> The personal DNA testing company adds the following specific details for the region:
> 
> 
> *Images depicting the geographic region*.
> 
> View attachment 585910
> View attachment 585911
> View attachment 585912



There is no height of foolishness, and South Asians like everything but South Asians. 
Some people in Pakistan really pushing hard for their ancestry change. So for those foreigners here is my take: Beta ji, tum or tumhary bary sab yahin k thy, or tum log jitni jaldi yeh maanlo, utna hi acha rahyga. or jisay inferiority mehsoos hoti ho, wo Turkey chalajaey.

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## Indus Pakistan

GHALIB said:


> so indus valley civilization has now become central asian ?


Since it never was Ganga Indian you don't need to worry whether it is Central Asian or Scandanavian or African.

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## GHALIB

Gandhi G in da house said:


> But till recently I thought they were Arabs/Persians i.e. West Asian. This is news.



for those whose history starts from invasion of md. bin qasim are arabs .



Indus Pakistan said:


> Since it never was Ganga Indian you don't need to worry whether it is Central Asian or Scandanavian or African.



you look to be arab .


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## Indus Pakistan

*These type of reports constipate* two* categories of people. The Indian's and Pakistani's of Indian heritage. The latter will start batting for the Indian's and go for the South Asian dash Indian sub-continent identities. The reasons are obvious.

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## Taimur Khurram

Weird change, but ok.

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## Pakhtoon yum

GHALIB said:


> so indus valley civilization has now become central asian ?


Why do you care Pakistan obsessed facist?

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## Indus Pakistan

The reasons -


Indians - these reports go against their narrative that we are part of their delusion called Akhand Bharat that will in time be conquered and re-integrated with the mata. In addition sans the Indus region South Asia's history is mostly aboriginal. Loss of Indus region sends shocks waves to the Indian's as they have built up a delusion on our heritage.


Pakistani's of Indian heritage - this reduces and excludes them so they feel bitter and fire back with "we are all Indians" and start singing the Islamic tunes to validate their migration to the Indus.

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## SingHee

Gandhi G in da house said:


> But till recently I thought they were Arabs/Persians i.e. West Asian. This is news.



Pakistanis, like other Central Asians, will carry a significant amount of Arab DNA, as would be expected given history. In addition, Persian is a linguistic term related to the original people of the Eurasian Steppe (Y-haplogroup R1) as they entered Central Asia and the language started to develop into its modern form.

Furthermore, the Pakistani nation as a whole was never presented as West Asian or Arab, but as a Central Asian Persianite people, and this is reflected in Pakistan's history and culture. Moreover, this can also be seen in the country's founding fathers' choice in country name and language usage for the national anthem.

However, Pakistanis are a mixed ethnic group and will contain people and tribes from many different regions of the world, which can only truly be shown on an individual level.

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## Indus Pakistan

Nefarious said:


> Good stuff. Whats with the butthurt, no need for ganga swampees to be upset.


lol. Catching on lad, catching on.

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## Pakhtoon yum

GHALIB said:


> you have your beliefs , no problem . some people believe they are arab . that is their belief .


Facist I am of arabian ancestry, Iraqi to be specific but now I'm Pakhtoon. So what's bothering you, obsessed aboriginal?



Jackdaws said:


> Nice. Does that mean Pak will be leaving SAARC?


Another obsessed facist. This is a mental illness, that most of your indian kin has.



GHALIB said:


> one day red indians will claim industani ancestry ............


They are Russians, facist but I dont expect your facist schools to teach you any of this. @waz why do we have such filth on this forum?


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## GHALIB

Pakhtoon yum said:


> Facist I am of arabian ancestry, Iraqi to be specific but now I'm Pakhtoon. So what's bothering you, obsessed aboriginal?



yes i know their are sons of salauddin ayubi living in pakistan, their are sons of md.bin qasim , their are sons of changez , sons of halaku ,taimur . 
i know it .


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## Pakhtoon yum

fitpOsitive said:


> There is no height of foolishness, and South Asians like everything but South Asians.
> Some people in Pakistan really pushing hard for their ancestry change. So for those foreigners here is my take: Beta ji, tum or tumhary bary sab yahin k thy, or tum log jitni jaldi yeh maanlo, utna hi acha rahyga. or jisay inferiority mehsoos hoti ho, wo Turkey chalajaey.


Mine weren't from both sides so check your facts.


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## Taimur Khurram

SingHee said:


> Pakistanis, like other Central Asians, will carry a significant amount of Arab DNA



That's ridiculous. Yes, many Pakistanis have small amounts of Arab DNA, but pretty much nobody has more than 10% SW Asian. 



SingHee said:


> Furthermore, the Pakistani nation as a whole was never presented as West Asian or Arab, but as a Central Asian Persianite people, and this is reflected in Pakistan's history and culture.



Persian culture only came to our land post-Islam, which is nothing compared to the thousands of years of Indo-Aryan cultural supremacy over our society. We are not Persian, we just have some Persian influences.

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## Pakhtoon yum

GHALIB said:


> yes i know their are sons of salauddin ayubi living in pakistan, their are sons of md.bin qasim , their are sons of changez , sons of halaku ,taimur .
> i know it .


Iraqi royalty not Syrian so check again facist


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## Taimur Khurram

Pakhtoon yum said:


> Mine weren't from both sides so check your facts.



Have you taken a DNA test to confirm your alleged Arab ancestry?


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## Indus Pakistan

Why is it that Indian's go into paroxyms over the question of our heritage. "Our" being the vast 95% who are native to the 4/5 provincres of Pakistan. We are all Muslims but we also need to know about our past. And again when I say "our" I do *not* mean Bihari's, Utter Pradeshi's, Assamese, Odishans, Tamils, Telagus etc from India who are Ganga/Deccan people. I mean us as in the 4/5 federating units of Pakistan. We all are unique and tied together make Pakistan. Indus region is our fatherland.

This is us. The noble five.

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## Fawadqasim1

At last 
der ayad durust ayad

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## Pakhtoon yum

Taimur Khurram said:


> That's ridiculous. Yes, many Pakistanis have small amounts of Arab DNA, but pretty much nobody has more than 10% SW Asian.
> 
> 
> 
> Persian culture only came to our land post-Islam, which is nothing compared to the thousands of years of Indo-Aryan cultural supremacy over our society. We are not Persian, we just have some Persian influences.


Pakistan is a mix of everything, that's shaped it's own identity. Those that try to convince you otherwise are trying to sow seeds of doubt in your head. Think of Pakistan as the US, with alot of different groups making their own separate identity, but unlike the US. Pakistan has been doing this for centuries.

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## fitpOsitive

Pakhtoon yum said:


> Mine weren't from both sides so check your facts.


Majority of Pakistan has subcontinental ancestry.

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## Indus Pakistan

Taimur Khurram said:


> Arab DNA


Arab influence was limited to Sindh and left negligble genetic print. All those who claim Arab ancestry do so because of fashion. There is more Ganga Indian DNA in Pakistani's then Arab.

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## Pakhtoon yum

Taimur Khurram said:


> Have you taken a DNA test to confirm your alleged Arab ancestry?


Go to the museum in Peshawar and ask them for a family tree for what I've stated. You should have your answer



fitpOsitive said:


> Majority of Pakistan has subcontinental ancestry.


Even punjab is mixed so I dont know where your getting this from. The only people in india that could be counted as spaning across both countries are the punjabi sikhs

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## Indus Pakistan

fitpOsitive said:


> Majority of Pakistan has subcontinental ancestry.


What did I say guys? Read below.



Indus Pakistan said:


> *These type of reports constipate* two* categories of people. The Indian's and Pakistani's of Indian heritage. The latter will start batting for the Indian's and go for the South Asian dash Indian sub-continent identities. The reasons are obvious.





Indus Pakistan said:


> Pakistani's of Indian heritage - this reduces and excludes them so they feel bitter and fire back with "we are all Indians" and start singing the Islamic tunes to validate their migration to the Indus.





SingHee said:


> In line with scientific research findings, people of Pakistan origin are now correctly listed as Central Asian in one of the largest and most reputed commercially available ethnicity DNA testing databases.


Many thanks for this thread. I will take the time later to read the details. If you come across other stuff like this please tag me.

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## SingHee

Taimur Khurram said:


> That's ridiculous. Yes, many Pakistanis have small amounts of Arab DNA, but pretty much nobody has more than 10% SW Asian.
> 
> Persian culture only came to our land post-Islam, which is nothing compared to the thousands of years of Indo-Aryan cultural supremacy over our society. We are not Persian, we just have some Persian influences.



I have already had this discussion with you in past, and will not be doing so again. The quoted post is as accurate as can be based on current scientific and historic knowledge.

Please refrain from tagging me any further on this subject.


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## Taimur Khurram

GHALIB said:


> yes i know their are sons of salauddin ayubi living in pakistan, their are sons of md.bin qasim , their are sons of changez , sons of halaku ,taimur .



Nobody claims ancestry from MBQ or Salahudeen.


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## Pakhtoon yum

Indus Pakistan said:


> Arab influence was limited to Sindh and left negligble genetic print. All those who claim Arab ancestry do so because of fashion. There is more Ganga Indian DNA in Pakistani's then Arab.


Not necessarily true. Afghanistan and northern pakistan say alot of Arabs too. On their way up to the tang empire. With the abbasid army having troops for northern Pakistan.



Indus Pakistan said:


> Arab influence was limited to Sindh and left negligble genetic print. All those who claim Arab ancestry do so because of fashion. There is more Ganga Indian DNA in Pakistani's then Arab.


Also what do you think happend to the greeks of Bactria? Did they just magically disappear?


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## Gandhi G in da house

Indus Pakistan said:


> Since it never was Ganga Indian you don't need to worry whether it is Central Asian or Scandanavian or African.



The people of Indus Valley Civilisation were Dravidians, who are all mostly South Indians now. So yes, Indians have everything to do with it.

On topic- Pashtuns and Balochis of Pakistan could certainly be clubbed as Central Asians. But Punjabis, Sindhis and Muhajirs ?

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## Indus Pakistan

I became aware of how averse Pakistani's of Indian heritage are after the book Indus Saga and Making of Pakistan was published by Aitzaz Ahsan.









The books caused a shitstorm. There was wave of angst by Indian's over a book about our history and our heritage. But what came as a surprise to me [I was naive to realities of Pakistan] the reaction by Pakistani's. They were of course those with roots in Ganga and not part of the "Indus Saga". Thus the negative reaction. But that book was seminal in may ways. As it bean the journey, a long journey where 95% of Pakistan can claim ownership proudly of their own history/heritage which is glorious by any measure.

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## Pakhtoon yum

Gandhi G in da house said:


> The people of Indus Valley Civilisation were Dravidians, who are all mostly South Indians now. So yes, Indians have everything to do with it.
> 
> On topic- Pashtuns and Balochis of Pakistan could perhaps be clubbed as Central Asians. But Punjabis, Sindhis and Muhajirs ?


Who said they were davidians? Your facist indian textbooks?

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## Taimur Khurram

SingHee said:


> I have already had this discussion with you in past, and will not be doing so again. The quoted post is as accurate as can be based on current scientific and historic knowledge.
> 
> Please refrain from tagging me any further.



You are literally barking nonsense just because you have an inferiority complex.


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## Indus Pakistan

Pakhtoon yum said:


> Also what do you think happend to the greeks of Bactria? Did they just magically disappear?


No they did not. They have left a historical and genetic print in the region [Gandhara/Bactria].

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## Gandhi G in da house

Pakhtoon yum said:


> Who said they were davidians? Your facist indian textbooks?



Google is your friend.


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## Pakhtoon yum

Taimur Khurram said:


> You are literally barking nonsense just because you have an inferiority complex.


Having different backgrounds and being proud doesnt mean having an inferiority complex. Although you sound like your living in denial of what is the reality. Must be one of those Bollywood fantasy kids

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## Imran Khan

GHALIB said:


> so indus valley civilization has now become central asian ?


konsa indus mamooo ye to sindh hai


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## Pakhtoon yum

Gandhi G in da house said:


> Google is your friend.


Google is not a scholarly sourse. But you know what is wikipedia thr holy book of the Indians


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## halupridol

At last


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## Indus Pakistan

Gandhi G in da house said:


> The people of Indus Valley Civilisation were Dravidians, who are all mostly South Indians now. So yes, Indians have everything to do with it.


Yeh, yeh. Whatever. You sound like those Africans crying out and dreaming that Egyptian was a African civilization. Why not dig something in Tamil Nadu and find something to take pride in your ancestors instead of trying leach from afar.

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## Pakhtoon yum

Indus Pakistan said:


> No they did not. They have left a historical and genetic print in the region [Gandhara/Bactria].


Yes that was a rhetorical question. What surprises me the must is all the aboriginals jumping up and down and squealing like pigs on something that doesnt concern them.

Back to bactria, it's a part of our history and will always be. Just like those that have many greek ancestors in Pakistan. The Persians shifted whole cities and tribes of greeks to modren day Pakistan and afganistan.

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## fitpOsitive

Indus Pakistan said:


> What did I say guys? Read below.
> Many thanks for this thread. I will take the time later to read the details. If you come across other stuff like this please tag me.



We are Pakistanis, sons of Indus valley, and river Indus is flowing here since past many years, as we know it.

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## Pakhtoon yum

fitpOsitive said:


> We are Pakistanis, sons of Indus valley, and river Indus is flowing here since past many years, as we know it.


Some of are and some of us are new to this brotherhood and it's like that, but those that hated us from the start will do everything they can to split us apart. Look at all the swamp dwellers jumping up and down.

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## Gandhi G in da house

Pakhtoon yum said:


> Google is not a scholarly sourse. But you know what is wikipedia thr holy book of the Indians



You can use Google to find a scholarly source. Google itself is never a source of anything. Are you internet illiterate or what ?


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## Pakhtoon yum

Gandhi G in da house said:


> You can use Google to find a scholarly source. Google itself is never a source of anything. Are you internet illiterate or what ?


And then who's the author of those sources? You brought this up so you provide me with a scholarly unbiased source or otherwise fukoff


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## Gandhi G in da house

Indus Pakistan said:


> Yeh, yeh. Whatever. You sound like those Africans crying out and dreaming that Egyptian was a African civilization. Why not dig something in Tamil Nadu and find something to take pride in your ancestors instead of trying leach from afar.



Awww don't cry. Wisdom is all over the internet. It was the Aryan invasion which drove the Dravidian inhabitants of the Indus Valley Southward. Get out of your Pakistan Studies text book.

Btw, I am a North Indian.



Pakhtoon yum said:


> And then who's the author of those sources? You brought this up so you provide me with a scholarly unbiased source or otherwise fukoff



I am too lazy and I am not here to spoon feed you. You are free not to believe.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/259980920_Dravidian_is_the_language_of_the_Indus_writing

One that I found after brief research.

Here, one more- 

https://www.harappa.com/sites/default/files/pdf/script-indus-parpola.pdf


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## Taimur Khurram

Pakhtoon yum said:


> Go to the museum in Peshawar and ask them for a family tree for what I've stated. You should have your answer



Family trees are bullsh!t

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## litman

if it is true then its great. even i used to feel shame in the previously known fact that we pakistanis share the same DNA with indians who have no morality gene in their chromosomes.

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## B.K.N

At least 50 percent of Pakistanis are not related to Indians in any way
Pashtun and balochs are different
A lot of sindhis are of Baloch origin then there are seraiki or Punjabi Baloch in south western areas of Punjab

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## krash

Taimur Khurram said:


> Persian culture only came to our land post-Islam



Grossly incorrect, bud.




Brass Knuckles said:


> At least 50 percent of Pakistanis are not related to Indians in any way
> Pashtun and balochs are different
> A lot of sindhis are of Baloch origin then there are seraiki or Punjabi Baloch in south western areas of Punjab



Ethnically speaking, Central Asian or South Asian, Pakistanis aren't even the same people between themselves. I don't know exactly how an Indian can claim that they are the same as us. It's genetics and history 101.

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## Taimur Khurram

krash said:


> Grossly incorrect, bud.



We NEVER spoke Persian before that.


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## Progressive1

Pakistan is bridge between central asia and south asia.

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## Pakhtoon yum

Taimur Khurram said:


> Family trees are bullsh!t


Oh are they now? Go watch you Bollywood

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## Shah_Deu

Gandhi G in da house said:


> I am too lazy and I am not here to spoon feed you. You are free not to believe.


Too lazy and still lurking on our forums, better switch to arnab goswami and entertain yourself...

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## Pakhtoon yum

krash said:


> Grossly incorrect, bud.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ethnically speaking, Central Asian or South Asian, Pakistanis aren't even the same people between themselves. I don't know exactly how an Indian can claim that they are the same as us. It's genetics and history 101.


Heck us Pakhtoon arent even the same in our own ethnicity. We may speak pakhto and follow our code but we arent the same.



Shah_Deu said:


> Too lazy and still lurking on our forums, better switch to arnab goswami and entertain yourself...


It's a mental illness they have

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## B.K.N

krash said:


> Ethnically speaking, Central Asian or South Asian, Pakistanis aren't even the same people between themselves. I don't know exactly how an Indian can claim that they are the same as us. It's genetics and history 101.


I mean no Indian ethnic group is related to at least 50 percent of Pakistanis in any way

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## Talwar e Pakistan

SingHee said:


> Pakistanis, like other Central Asians, will carry a significant amount of Arab DNA, as would be expected given history. In addition, Persian is a linguistic term related to the original people of the Eurasian Steppe (Y-haplogroup R1) as they entered Central Asia and the language started to develop into its modern form.
> 
> Furthermore, the Pakistani nation as a whole was never presented as West Asian or Arab, but as a Central Asian Persianite people, and this is reflected in Pakistan's history and culture. Moreover, this can also be seen in the country's founding fathers' choice in country name and language usage for the national anthem.
> 
> However, Pakistanis are a mixed ethnic group and will contain people and tribes from many different regions of the world, which can only truly be shown on an individual level.


Pakistanis have absolutely little to no Arab DNA. As I said, Pakistanis come from two main components; Iranian Neolithic Farmers (IVC) and Indo-European Herders (Aryans).

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## Pakhtoon yum

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> Pakistanis have absolutely little to no Arab DNA. As I said, Pakistanis come from two main components; Iranian Neolithic Farmers (IVC) and Indo-European Herders (Aryans).


Greeks...Persians and guess what turks. Why did you choose to stop at a specific timeline and ignored everything else that happened after it? Did Pakistan stay on pause all those centuries?

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## Talwar e Pakistan

Brass Knuckles said:


> I mean no Indian ethnic group is related to at least 50 percent of Pakistanis in any way


NW Indians are related to all major ethnic groups of Pakistan, including Baloch and Pashtuns. Though these NW Indians make up a meager 3-4% of the Indian population. You even have the Ror from Haryana (originated from Sindh) that are more West Asian shifted than most Pashtuns.

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## SingHee

Gandhi G in da house said:


> On topic- Pashtuns and Balochis of Pakistan could certainly be clubbed as Central Asians. But Punjabis, Sindhis and Muhajirs ?



Punjabis and Sindhis were a historic Persian speaking people like the rest of Pakistan, and this has been in recorded history since at least the Kushans of the first century, who were themselves Bactrian speakers.

They are not directly related to modern Indians, and only started to share commonalities in language much later in history. For e.g., the Punjabi language was largely formed after the thirteenth century, while Persian remained the official language of the Pakistan region until the late 19th century.

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## Gandhi G in da house

Shah_Deu said:


> Too lazy and still lurking on our forums, better switch to arnab goswami and entertain yourself...



Why ? can't handle the truth I am throwing at you ?


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## POTTER

May be in 1947 some Pakistanis were similar to some indians but 70 years has changed us. Now we have becomes a mixtures of 5 races. Indians please don't shit here go find some rail tracks please.

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## Sine Nomine

Cookie Monster said:


> Read again what I said...
> "U would be *HARD PRESSED* to find a "pure" race without any mixing". This means that while it's not impossible...the exceptions are few. Those include any uncontacted tribes(whether on Andaman island or deep in the Amazon region).


It's not difficult,any tribe which has been away from any major route would have pure race without mixing,and there are lot and lot of them.


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## Talwar e Pakistan

Pakhtoon yum said:


> Greeks...Persians and guess what turks. Why did you choose to stop at a specific timeline and ignored everything else that happened after it? Did Pakistan stay on pause all those centuries?


I am going off of genetic research and results. Greeks, Persians and Turkic People have contributed little to bloodline of mainstream Pakistani ethnic groups. Such influence is only in the case of anomaly groups such as Hazaras, Burusho and Derhwars. 

The third most significant component is that of Steppe migrants that came after the Indo-Aryans such as the Kushans, Bactrians, Scythians and others but their contribution pales in comparison to our two main components.



POTTER said:


> May be in 1947 some Pakistanis were similar to some indians but 70 years has changed us. Now we have becomes a mixtures of 5 races. Indians please don't shit here go find some rail tracks please.


It's actually the opposite, the population exchange that occurred in 1947 slightly brought us genetically closer to Indians as a whole average.

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## B.K.N

Gandhi G in da house said:


> On topic- Pashtuns and Balochis of Pakistan could certainly be clubbed as Central Asians. But Punjabis, Sindhis and Muhajirs ?


There is a large population of Baloch in Sindh don't know what is percentage
Most of the influential Sindhi politicians are Baloch
From the tribes like jatoi talpur marri magsi etc
Then there are seraiki Baloch
Punjabis of eastern areas of Pakistani Punjab are related to sikh punjabis

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## Gandhi G in da house

Brass Knuckles said:


> There is a large population of Baloch in Sindh don't know what is percentage
> Most of the influential Sindhi politicians are Baloch
> From the tribes like jatoi talpur marri magsi etc
> Then there are seraiki Baloch
> Punjabis of eastern areas of Pakistani Punjab are related to sikh punjabis



Do you have any estimates of how many Sindhis and Punjabis are of Baloch origin ?


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## Talwar e Pakistan

SingHee said:


> Punjabis and Sindhis were a historic Persian speaking people like the rest of Pakistan, and this has been in recorded history since at least the Kushans of the first century, who were themselves Bactrian speakers.
> 
> They are not directly related to modern Indians, and only started to share commonalities in language much later in history. For e.g., the Punjabi language was largely formed after the thirteenth century, while Persian remained the official language of the Pakistan region until the late 19th century.


The land that compromises modern-day Pakistan has always been an Indo-Aryan speaking region (post-Harrapan), even that of KPK. Persian was a court language for some dynasties, correct, but for the vast majority of our ancestors, they (or at one time) largely spoke an Indo-Aryan language. 

You are right that Punjabi was developed around the 13th century, but before that, they spoke Indo-Aryan languages, such as Gandhari of KPK, East Afghanistan and North Punjab. These languages would combine, mix, develop and mutate to create the various Indo-Aryan dialects/languages of Pakistan today such as Punjabi, Sindhi, Seraiki, Hindko, Dardic, Pahari, etc...

However, our native languages are only spoken by around 3-4% of the Indian Population, so a linguistic connection to Indians is a bit irrelevant. When they bring up Pakistanis being able to speak/understand "Urdu-Hindi", they need to realize that Urdu is a language that we adopted (like English) and only around 8% of Pakistanis speak Urdu as their mother tongue. Prior to 1947, hardly anyone in modern-day Pakistan spoke Urdu.

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## bananarepublic

So we have gone from al-bakistani to mountain dwellers

I dont like this sweeping mentality of uniform ethnicity in Pakistan.
Pakistan will always remain a multi-ethnic nation and this diversity is what makes us strong.
Its pathetic to see fellow Pakistani's trying to lump themselves with arabs or persians or central asian.

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## Talwar e Pakistan

Brass Knuckles said:


> There is a large population of Baloch in Sindh don't know what is percentage
> Most of the influential Sindhi politicians are Baloch
> From the tribes like jatoi talpur marri magsi etc
> Then there are seraiki Baloch
> Punjabis of eastern areas of Pakistani Punjab are related to sikh punjabis





Gandhi G in da house said:


> Do you have any estimates of how many Sindhis and Punjabis are of Baloch origin ?



All major Pakistani ethnic groups cluster together and share a very close genetic admixture. Pashtuns, Punjabis, Sindhis, Baloch, Kashmiris, etc... are closer to each other than any other ethnic group in terms of genetics.

Go over the data graphs I shared earlier.

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## krash

Taimur Khurram said:


> We NEVER spoke Persian before that.



That is not the marker for cultural influence at all. Persian wasn't the dominant language in most of Iran itself for hundreds of years, still isn't the sole language there (Much like Urdu in Pakistan). The Persians literally ruled, on and off, over most of what is today Pakistan since 550 BCE.

The Achaemenid Empire (550–330 BCE):








Pashto, Balochi and Darri are three major examples of Iranic languages endemic to Pakistan. Pashto, btw, is the second most spoken Iranic language after Persian and can be traced BCE. Don't think I need to state the Iranic genetic influences on Balochis, Pukhtoons, Darris, Hazaras, etc.

It's very natural, tbh. Pakistan lays smack on the crossroads of the ancient and the modern worlds. There aren't many major civilisations that haven't camped or passed through here. If you read Alexander's historians' accounts, you'll find that there was European influence here even before his conquest. There is a reason why this relatively small patch of land is ethnically, linguistically and culturally so heterogeneous; we are still settling in.

All that is not to say that we are Iranic or any other foreign group. We are natives (since when is up for debate) of the land who have had a lot of external influence. Urdu is beautifully analogous to our people. It has words from Persian, Arabic, Turkish, Hindi, English, and a fair few others but is itself none of them. We are Pakistanis, we are a boiling pot, we are unlike any other.

No wonder our Indian friends here want so desperately to be associated with us.

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## Taimur Khurram

krash said:


> That is not the marker for cultural influence at all. Persian wasn't the dominant language in most of Iran itself for hundreds of years, still isn't the sole language there (Much like Urdu in Pakistan). The Persians literally ruled, on and off, over most of what is today Pakistan since 550 BC.
> 
> The Achaemenid Empire (550–330 BC):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pashto, Balochi and Darri are three major examples of Iranic languages endemic to Pakistan. Pashto, btw, is the second most spoken Iranic language after Persian and can be traced BCE. Don't think I need to state the Iranic genetic influences on Balochis, Pukhtoons, Darris, Hazaras, etc.
> 
> It's very natural, tbh. Pakistan lays smack on the crossroads of the ancient and the modern worlds. There aren't many major civilisations that haven't camped or passed through here. If you read Alexander's historians' accounts, you'll find that there was European influence here even before his conquest.
> 
> All that is not to say that we are Iranic or any other foreign group. We are natives of the land who have had a lot of external influence. Urdu is beautifully analogous to our people. It has words from Persian, Arabic, Turkish, Hindi, English, and a fair few others but is itself none of them. We are Pakistanis, we are a boiling pot, we are unlike any other. No wonder our Indian friends here want so desperately to be associated with us.



Iranic is fine, but to exclusively say Persian is incorrect.


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## lastofthepatriots

krash said:


> That is not the marker for cultural influence at all. Persian wasn't the dominant language in most of Iran itself for hundreds of years, still isn't the sole language there (Much like Urdu in Pakistan). The Persians literally ruled, on and off, over most of what is today Pakistan since 550 BC.
> 
> The Achaemenid Empire (550–330 BC):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pashto, Balochi and Darri are three major examples of Iranic languages endemic to Pakistan. Pashto, btw, is the second most spoken Iranic language after Persian and can be traced BCE. Don't think I need to state the Iranic genetic influences on Balochis, Pukhtoons, Darris, Hazaras, etc.
> 
> It's very natural, tbh. Pakistan lays smack on the crossroads of the ancient and the modern worlds. There aren't many major civilisations that haven't camped or passed through here. If you read Alexander's historians' accounts, you'll find that there was European influence here even before his conquest.
> 
> All that is not to say that we are Iranic or any other foreign group. We are natives of the land who have had a lot of external influence. Urdu is beautifully analogous to our people. It has words from Persian, Arabic, Turkish, Hindi, English, and a fair few others but is itself none of them. We are Pakistanis, we are a boiling pot, we are unlike any other. No wonder our Indian friends here want so desperately to be associated with us.



Pakistan is like Brazil in terms of the mixture of the people.

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## Talwar e Pakistan

krash said:


> That is not the marker for cultural influence at all. Persian wasn't the dominant language in most of Iran itself for hundreds of years, still isn't the sole language there (Much like Urdu in Pakistan). The Persians literally ruled, on and off, over most of what is today Pakistan since 550 BC.
> 
> The Achaemenid Empire (550–330 BC):


The Achaemenids didn't technically "rule" modern-day Pakistan, they had invaded and forced the defeated polities to become tributary states. These polities were largely autonomous, had their own kings and armies, hence Persian influence was minimal. When Alexander arrived, there was no evidence of any Persian remnants.

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## Shah_Deu

krash said:


> We are Pakistanis, we are a boiling pot, we are unlike any other. No wonder our Indian friends here want so desperately to be associated with us.


They are obsessed with us man! literally. It shows their national inferiority complex. I wouldn't blame them, its a baggage from their history.

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## Talwar e Pakistan

krash said:


> Pashto, Balochi and Darri are three major examples of Iranic languages endemic to Pakistan. Pashto, btw, is the second most spoken Iranic language after Persian and can be traced BCE. Don't think I need to state the Iranic genetic influences on Balochis, Pukhtoons, Darris, Hazaras, etc.


Pashto came much later and wasn't a dominant language in modern-day KPK which largely spoke an Indo-Aryan language known as Gandhari until 800-1000 AD.


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## Gandhi G in da house

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> All major Pakistani ethnic groups cluster together and share a very close genetic admixture. Pashtuns, Punjabis, Sindhis, Baloch, Kashmiris, etc... are closer to each other than any other ethnic group in terms of genetics.



Is this because of inter-marriage and mixing ?

If Pashtuns of Pakistan are so similar to Pakistani Punjabis, that means they must be genetically different from Pashtuns of Afghanistan now ? Similarly, the Pakistani Punjabis must be different from Indian Punjabis now because of mixing with Pashtuns etc. ?


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## SingHee

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> The land that compromises modern-day Pakistan has always been an Indo-Aryan speaking region (post-Harrapan), even that of KPK. Persian was a court language for some dynasties, correct, but for the vast majority of our ancestors, they (or at one time) largely spoke an Indo-Aryan language.
> 
> You are right that Punjabi was developed around the 13th century, but before that, they spoke Indo-Aryan languages, such as Gandhari of KPK, East Afghanistan and North Punjab. These languages would combine, mix, develop and mutate to create the various Indo-Aryan dialects/languages of Pakistan today such as Punjabi, Sindhi, Seraiki, Hindko, Dardic, Pahari, etc...
> 
> However, our native languages are only spoken by around 3-4% of the Indian Population, so a linguistic connection to Indians is a bit irrelevant. When they bring up Pakistanis being able to speak/understand "Urdu-Hindi", they need to realize that Urdu is a language that we adopted (like English) and only around 8% of Pakistanis speak Urdu as their mother tongue. Prior to 1947, hardly anyone in modern-day Pakistan spoke Urdu.



Languages do indeed mix and develop as you say, but we do know that they carry similar genetics as other Central Asian populations and the R1 Y-chromosome haplogroup in much of the population. Therefore, as they mixed with similar people at the same time as the Persian language was being formed in the region, it must be assumed they were speakers of a very similar language at the time.

Of course, many of these languages have continued to develop and diversify over time, so the changes we see today may not have been as distinct from a historic perspective of the Steppe language. Moreover, the Iranic and Indo eponym is so highly politicised, I have stopped putting any weight in it.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

GHALIB said:


> so indus valley civilization has now become central asian ?


Well read some history first. Indus valley Civilization left river indus and settled at the banks of a river due East i.e Ganga. This was due to many factors but the most prominent one was the uncontrollable nature of Indus River which would change direction and floods. Later on this Civilization was renamed the Indian Civilization. The invasion of Alexander The Great which ending the Arian empire form the region which is currently Pakistan was the final nail in the coffin. Later on the fighters of the Alexander continued his conquest and settled here. People of Kalash. https://www.thebrokebackpacker.com/exploring-the-kalash-valley-in-pakistan/

The modern day Pakistan descendants are great grand children of mainly central asian origin and middle east.


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## Talwar e Pakistan

bananarepublic said:


> So we have gone from al-bakistani to mountain dwellers
> 
> I dont like this sweeping mentality of uniform ethnicity in Pakistan.
> Pakistan will always remain a multi-ethnic nation and this diversity is what makes us strong.
> Its pathetic to see fellow Pakistani's trying to lump themselves with arabs or persians or central asian.


We are separate ethnic groups, that does not mean we are also genetically distinct. Ethnicity focuses on a cultural-linguistic aspect.

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## Shah_Deu

Gandhi G in da house said:


> Sorry for going off topic but since you said this -
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ans-after-ny-bomb-scare-idUSTRE64655Y20100507
> 
> *Pakistanis pose as Indians after NY bomb scare*
> 
> We can sit here on a Pakistani forum, throw insults at Indians all day and get a dozen likes but the ground realities wont change.


Just the freedom and decency that you enjoy on this forum without being abused (unlike IDRW and likes) speaks for itself! We wouldnt be acting this way if we ever wanted to be like you!


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## Talwar e Pakistan

Gandhi G in da house said:


> Awww don't cry. Wisdom is all over the internet. It was the Aryan invasion which drove the Dravidian inhabitants of the Indus Valley Southward. Get out of your Pakistan Studies text book.





Gandhi G in da house said:


> I am too lazy and I am not here to spoon feed you. You are free not to believe.
> 
> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/259980920_Dravidian_is_the_language_of_the_Indus_writing
> 
> One that I found after brief research.
> 
> Here, one more-
> 
> https://www.harappa.com/sites/default/files/pdf/script-indus-parpola.pdf


You need to understand that this is simply one of countless theories and is based upon the Elamite-Dravidian hypothesis which explains that the Indus Region was colonized by Iranian Neolithic Farmers from Elam who created the Indus Valley Civilization, some migrated into modern-day India and mixed in with a majority aborigine-like indigenous population to create the Dravidians.

The theory doesn't state anything about "Dravidian Inhabitants of the Indus Valley" being pushed out by Aryans. There is no conclusive evidence for this, but there definitely is a possibility.

Also, your first article is based off of an "independent researcher" who has no credibility.



Gandhi G in da house said:


> Is this because of inter-marriage and mixing ?
> 
> If Pashtuns of Pakistan are so similar to Pakistani Punjabis, that means they must be genetically different from Pashtuns of Afghanistan now ? Similarly, the Pakistani Punjabis must be different from Indian Punjabis now because of mixing with Pashtuns etc. ?


Not at all, this is primarily due to sharing the same two main genetic components. This also extends to NW Indians (such as Punjabis) who are closer to Pakistani ethnic groups than they are to other Indian ethnic groups. While some sparse NW Indians such as the Ror of Haryana are even closer to Tajiks than they are to North Indians.

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## denel

SingHee said:


> In line with scientific research findings, people of Pakistan origin are now correctly listed as Central Asian in one of the largest and most reputed commercially available ancestry DNA testing databases.
> 
> AncestryDNA now lists all ethnic Pakistanis in the Central Asia - South category, as this is now the accepted norm in scientific research papers. Following the same norms, Afghanistan and Tajikistan are also included in the same category. I had earlier also reported the scientific research findings and papers concerning Pakistan, but seeing it now included in a major commercial ancestry genetic test is quite interesting.
> 
> The personal DNA testing company adds the following specific details for the region:
> 
> 
> *
> Images depicting the geographic region*
> 
> View attachment 585910
> View attachment 585911
> View attachment 585912


i question this entire scheme.
For example the entire monsoon corridor is of mixed ancestry- this is incorrect overall. Same also for iran - over 20 plus distinct ethnicities or even across central asia - e.g. uzbek - over 4 distinct seperate groupings.


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## Pan-Islamic-Pakistan

SingHee said:


> In line with scientific research findings, people of Pakistan origin are now correctly listed as Central Asian in one of the largest and most reputed commercially available ancestry DNA testing databases.
> 
> AncestryDNA now lists all ethnic Pakistanis in the Central Asia - South category, as this is now the accepted norm in scientific research papers. Following the same norms, Afghanistan and Tajikistan are also included in the same category. I had earlier also reported the scientific research findings and papers concerning Pakistan, but seeing it now included in a major commercial ancestry genetic test is quite interesting.
> 
> The personal DNA testing company adds the following specific details for the region:
> 
> 
> *
> Images depicting the geographic region*
> 
> View attachment 585910
> View attachment 585911
> View attachment 585912



Finally, they are correctly depicting our ancestral origins from Mongolia and Central Asia as Iranic nomads.

I wrote about it previously in my thread on the topic, we are mostly Iranic origin people (includes Punjab, Sindh, Kashmir too.)

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/the-sakas-scythians-kushans-hephthalites-white-huns.610977/

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## Gandhi G in da house

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> You need to understand that this is simply one of countless theories and is based upon the Elamite-Dravidian hypothesis which explains that the Indus Region was colonized by Iranian Neolithic Farmers from Elam who created the Indus Valley Civilization, some migrated into modern-day India and mixed in with a majority aborigine-like indigenous population to create the Dravidians.
> 
> The theory doesn't state anything about "Dravidian Inhabitants of the Indus Valley" being pushed out by Aryans. There is no conclusive evidence for this, but there definitely is a possibility.
> 
> Also, your first article is based off of an "independent researcher" who has no credibility.



https://www.jstor.org/stable/41927733?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

Clyde Ahmad has published as well.

The Dravidian theory is the most widely accepted theory about the IVC now. There are many more sources on the internet about this besides what I posted.


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## Talwar e Pakistan

Pan-Islamic-Pakistan said:


> Finally, they are correctly depicting our ancestral origins from Mongolia and Central Asia as Iranic nomads.
> 
> I wrote about it previously in my thread on the topic, we are mostly Iranic origin people (includes Punjab, Sindh, Kashmir too.)
> 
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/the-sakas-scythians-kushans-hephthalites-white-huns.610977/


We're really not, we don't have ancestral origins from Mongolia except for fringe ethnic groups like the Hazara. Mongoloid/Turkic admixture is nearly nil among Pakistanis. 

Scythians, Kushans, Bactrians and etc... who were indeed North East Iranic had a genetic impact upon Pakistanis but it pales in comparison to our two main genetic components.

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## krash

Pakhtoon yum said:


> Heck us Pakhtoon arent even the same in our own ethnicity. We may speak pakhto and follow our code but we arent the same.



Haha, true. Neither are Punjabis, tbh. Then you have that whole belt of Saraikis to make it even more interesting.



Talwar e Pakistan said:


> NW Indians are related to all major ethnic groups of Pakistan, including Baloch and Pashtuns. Though these NW Indians make up a meager 3-4% of the Indian population. You even have the Ror from Haryana (originated from Sindh) that are more West Asian shifted than most Pashtuns.



These are immigrant populations, no?



Gandhi G in da house said:


> Do you have any estimates of how many Sindhis and Punjabis are of Baloch origin ?



A fair bit many. The admixture in Southern Punjab reached levels where they now identify as a completely separate ethnic group, i.e. Saraikis. Their language is also a mixture of Punjabi, Balochi and Sindhi.



Taimur Khurram said:


> Iranic is fine, but to exclusively say Persian is incorrect.



Well, tomato tomato, no?



Talwar e Pakistan said:


> Pashto came much later and wasn't a dominant language in modern-day KPK which largely spoke an Indo-Aryan language known as Gandhari until 800-1000 AD.



The modern formalised form of Pashto came later. Proto-Pashto is recorded as far back as the time of the Greco-Bactrian Kingdoms, also evidenced by Pashto's import of Greek words.



Talwar e Pakistan said:


> The Achaemenids didn't technically "rule" modern-day Pakistan, they had invaded and forced the defeated polities to become tributary states. These polities were largely autonomous, had their own kings and armies, hence Persian influence was minimal. When Alexander arrived, there was no evidence of any Persian remnants.



Incorrect. Cyrus' armies physically invaded modern day Pakistan from north west and then worked their way south. These conquered lands were made into the satrapies (provinces) of Gandara (known as Parapamisadae by the Greeks), Sattagydia and Maka. We know of the former two from the Behistun Inscription. The Greek historians Xenophon and Ctesias even suggest that Cyrus conquered as far as into modern day India. Modern historians however place these satrapies till the banks of Indus.

Later on Darius I conquered an additional province which he names as 'Hidush' in his inscriptions. This was later transliterated to Hindush and then Indos by the Greeks. It is believed that it was still under Achaemenid control when Alexander invaded.

Regardless, the original point was about ancient Persian influence in the lands of modern day Pakistan.



Gandhi G in da house said:


> Sorry for going off topic but since you said this -
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ans-after-ny-bomb-scare-idUSTRE64655Y20100507
> 
> *Pakistanis pose as Indians after NY bomb scare*




Haha, yeah. Pakistanis in foreign lands posed as Indians to avoid Islamophobia at its zenith. You know, the way Indian Muslims have had to pose as Hindus to save themselves since centuries. Glad that you could find some solace at a time when even Indian expats don't want to be identified as such.



Gandhi G in da house said:


> We can sit here on a Pakistani forum, throw insults at Indians all day and get a dozen likes but the ground realities wont change.



Insults were not thrown at any Indian. Your statements, specifically, were ridiculed. There's little more that they deserve. Your feelings were just collateral damage. Ground realities.

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## Talwar e Pakistan

Gandhi G in da house said:


> https://www.jstor.org/stable/41927733?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents
> 
> Clyde Ahmad has published as well.
> 
> The Dravidian theory is the most widely accepted theory about the IVC now. There are many more sources on the internet about this besides what I posted.


It is a popular theory, but definitely not the most widely accepted theory. 

Also, these "Dravidians of IVC" are no where close to the Dravidians of today, who mostly descend from an indigenous population that adopted the language of the IVC migrants.



krash said:


> These are immigrant populations, no?


All populations are immigrant populations, ancestors of the IVC are thought to have come from Elam (Southern Iran) or the fertile crescent while the ancestors of the Vedic Aryans originated from the steppes of Siberia.

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## SingHee

denel said:


> i question this entire scheme.
> For example the entire monsoon corridor is of mixed ancestry- this is incorrect overall. Same also for iran - over 20 plus distinct ethnicities or even across central asia - e.g. uzbek - over 4 distinct seperate groupings.



Please check below.



Pan-Islamic-Pakistan said:


> Finally, they are correctly depicting our ancestral origins from Mongolia and Central Asia as Iranic nomads.
> 
> I wrote about it previously in my thread on the topic, we are mostly Iranic origin people (includes Punjab, Sindh, Kashmir too.)
> 
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/the-sakas-scythians-kushans-hephthalites-white-huns.610977/



Similar to the scientists who created the ancestry database, I prefer to use the word Persianite, which is a more accurate description of linguistics, culture, history and genetic affinity within the Steppe people of Central Asia. 

Modern Iranians, similar to Indians, are largely adoptees, but who played a relatively more significant role in the historic formation of the culture.

Thank you for the link, I will read through the contents.

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## xyxmt

GHALIB said:


> so indus valley civilization has now become central asian ?



yes clearly Indus has nothing to do with India

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## Indus Pakistan

GHALIB said:


> so indus valley civilization has now become central asian ?


No, it is what it always has been. A Indus River civilzation with hinterlands going deep into Afghanistan. Thus we can call this Af-Pak. Refer to annotated map below of River Indus. Of course Ganga India is nicely missing from this whereas Pakistan is focal point.










SingHee said:


> No, this only concerns the current inhabitants of Pakistan.


This is about coterminous Pakistan. Yes '*coterminous*'.



Talwar e Pakistan said:


> neither is it accurate to group 1/4th of the world population into one category "South Asians/Indians".


Well said. I have always found it amusing how people in Europe, walking on a bland white canvas, take one step here, "oh Irish", one here "oh English", one step there "oh German, Dane, Welsh, Norweigan, Swede, Dutch, Belgian all in a space of 300 miles and 250 million people who practically look, smell the same. Yet in our part of the world 1,400 miles of geography, with 1.8 billion people [like you said 1/4 of humanity] every religion you can imagine, every language family, every differant environment from desert, to tropical swamps to ice cold mountains are all the same. Lumped into just one monolith.

Wtf?

Those of you have followed will know I have always included Sikh Punjab, Himachel Pradesh as being Indus people. The findings here fit with my view nicely. Only about 3% fragment of India is Indus people.

Within in India they have two broad divides. The northern arc dominated by Ganga swamps and a souther peninsula dominated by deccan India. The findings again confirm this divide.

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## SingHee

Indus Pakistan said:


> This is about coterminous Pakistan. Yes '*coterminous*'.



Yes, specific historic tribes would have been holding geographic regions within natural boundaries, so there certainly will be some effect.

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## sohail.ishaque

GHALIB said:


> you have your beliefs , no problem . some people believe they are arab . that is their belief .


What a sad story for you indians. 

You are trying to prove us as Indians and we are trying against it. A real humiliating situation indeed.

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## Indus Pakistan

sohail.ishaque said:


> What a sad story for you indians.
> 
> You are trying to *prove us as Indians* and *we are trying against it*. A real *humiliating *situation indeed.


This says it all.

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## cloud4000

sohail.ishaque said:


> What a sad story for you indians.
> 
> You are trying to prove us as Indians and we are trying against it. A real humiliating situation indeed.



Indians and Pakistanis are nationalities (and only 70-years-old. at that) and it has nothing to do with DNA. Indians and Pakistanis can share the same DNA but it doesn't mean we are alike. Religion, language, and culture also play a big part.

I sent my DNA to 23andMe.com and got back the result of being South Asian with a smattering of Central Asian blood. I have the blood of invaders, it seems.

Still, it's an interesting exercise or those who want to do it. You may be surprised by who you really are.

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## -blitzkrieg-

Jackdaws said:


> Nice. Does that mean Pak will be leaving SAARC?


SAARC? who is she?

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## Taimur Khurram

SingHee said:


> Please check below.
> 
> 
> 
> Similar to the scientists who created the ancestry database, I prefer to use the word Persianite, which is a more accurate description of linguistics, culture, history and genetic affinity within the Steppe people of Central Asia.
> 
> Modern Iranians, similar to Indians, are largely adoptees, but who played a relatively more significant role in the historic formation of the culture.
> 
> Thank you for the link, I will read through the contents.



Still waiting for proof of your claims.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Still inaccurate 

Iran - Afghanistan - Pakistan - Central Asia - Parts of Arabia all have intermingling

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## Kabira

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Still inaccurate
> 
> Iran - Afghanistan - Pakistan - Central Asia - Parts of Arabia all have intermingling



Iranians are quite different apart from south east Iran, this map is on point. They are using people from different countries as reference population.

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## SingHee

Taimur Khurram said:


> Still waiting for proof of your claims.



Trying reading the thread.

If you still don't get it, you're on your own.

That said, I'm not expecting much.

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## Pan-Islamic-Pakistan

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> We're really not, we don't have ancestral origins from Mongolia except for fringe ethnic groups like the Hazara. Mongoloid/Turkic admixture is nearly nil among Pakistanis.
> 
> Scythians, Kushans, Bactrians and etc... who were indeed North East Iranic had a genetic impact upon Pakistanis but it pales in comparison to our two main genetic components.



That region of Mongolia, Tarim Basin (Xinjiang), and its neighboring areas were the origins of several groups of people.

Not only Mongols, but the Huns, Turks/Turkics, and Iranic (not Iranian) people originated from this area.






Pakistan’s *Karakorum* range traces its name to Mongolia’s similarly named place. Translated to ‘black mountains,’ it also features heavily in Turkish history.

References to the ‘blue sky’ in Mongolian and Turkish culture also finds its similarity on ours. This is a holdover from Tengrism. Tengeri is known as the pagan sky god.






Allama Iqbal says in Tulu e Islam in Bange e Dara:

_Pare Hai Charakh-E-Neeli Faam Se Manzil Musalman Ki
Sitare Jis Ki Gard-E-Rah Hon, Woh Karwan Tu Hai

The goal of the Muslim lies beyond the *blue sky*;
You are the caravan, which the stars follow as dust on the road.
_
Our traditional cultural trade (carpets, furs, caps, jewelry, dyes, cloth, fabrics) are a remnant of our nomadic Iranic roots (which is why they resemble other nomadic origin people like Turks and Mongols.)






Many of the nomadic groups originating from the area of the Altai mountains (Siberia, Mongolia, Kazakhstan, Tarim Basin) shares a similar culture.

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## Pakhtoon yum

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> NW Indians are related to all major ethnic groups of Pakistan, including Baloch and Pashtuns. Though these NW Indians make up a meager 3-4% of the Indian population. You even have the Ror from Haryana (originated from Sindh) that are more West Asian shifted than most Pashtuns.





Talwar e Pakistan said:


> I am going off of genetic research and results. Greeks, Persians and Turkic People have contributed little to bloodline of mainstream Pakistani ethnic groups. Such influence is only in the case of anomaly groups such as Hazaras, Burusho and Derhwars.
> 
> The third most significant component is that of Steppe migrants that came after the Indo-Aryans such as the Kushans, Bactrians, Scythians and others but their contribution pales in comparison to our two main components.
> 
> 
> It's actually the opposite, the population exchange that occurred in 1947 slightly brought us genetically closer to Indians as a whole average.


Are u mad? So all those greeks that lived in what is now Pakistan just magically dissapeared? Also there were records of pakhtoons absorbing turkic tribes into our culture. Those must have vanished into thin air too.

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## Nein

Well its in the dna majority of Pakistanis can actually trace a central asian ancestor.

Many Pakistanis are pro Turk and Turkic many also have the surname Khan.

So many Turkic Empires ruled Pakistan. Babur also had Ottoman Turk volunteers.

Our history is so interwined so it is stupid to say the relations between Turks and Pakistan is like 60 years old when you have 1000+ history of relations.

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## Pakhtoon yum

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> I am going off of genetic research and results. Greeks, Persians and Turkic People have contributed little to bloodline of mainstream Pakistani ethnic groups. Such influence is only in the case of anomaly groups such as Hazaras, Burusho and Derhwars.
> 
> The third most significant component is that of Steppe migrants that came after the Indo-Aryans such as the Kushans, Bactrians, Scythians and others but their contribution pales in comparison to our two main components.
> 
> 
> It's actually the opposite, the population exchange that occurred in 1947 slightly brought us genetically closer to Indians as a whole average.


Look at all those Indians and wanna be bolkywood kids that liked your comment 



bananarepublic said:


> So we have gone from al-bakistani to mountain dwellers
> 
> I dont like this sweeping mentality of uniform ethnicity in Pakistan.
> Pakistan will always remain a multi-ethnic nation and this diversity is what makes us strong.
> Its pathetic to see fellow Pakistani's trying to lump themselves with arabs or persians or central asian.


Preach! Its mostly the Bollywood brainwashed kids and the Indians that are trying their hardest to make Pakistan and Pakistanis look like them. Pakistan is Pakistan, its greek, arab, turkic, chinese, aryan, and south asian.



Gandhi G in da house said:


> Is this because of inter-marriage and mixing ?
> 
> If Pashtuns of Pakistan are so similar to Pakistani Punjabis, that means they must be genetically different from Pashtuns of Afghanistan now ? Similarly, the Pakistani Punjabis must be different from Indian Punjabis now because of mixing with Pashtuns etc. ?


Yes cause there was one pakhtoon and one punjabi that got married and now all Pakhtoons in Pakistan are different then Afghanistan. 

Look at these obsessed aboriginals

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## GHALIB

Imran Khan said:


> konsa indus mamooo ye to sindh hai



mamu ye batao tum bhi central asia se ? ya greek wala sikandar ? 
sindh walo ka tp pata nahi chal raha .


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## GHALIB

Pakhtoon yum said:


> Look at all those Indians and wanna be bolkywood kids that liked your comment
> 
> 
> Preach! Its mostly the Bollywood brainwashed kids and the Indians that are trying their hardest to make Pakistan and Pakistanis look like them. Pakistan is Pakistan, its greek, arab, turkic, chinese, aryan, and south asian.
> 
> 
> Yes cause there was one pakhtoon and one punjabi that got married and now all Pakhtoons in Pakistan are different then Afghanistan.
> 
> Look at these obsessed aboriginals




that's good , greek, arab, turk ,chinese , aryan , mangol , mixed in pakistan .


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## maximuswarrior

Samlee said:


> Tight Slap On Desi Liberals Who Claim Pakistanis and Indians Are The Same



What happened to the claim we are all the same LOL

A big tight slap for Hindustan.

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## Pakistani Fighter

SingHee said:


> In line with scientific research findings, people of Pakistan origin are now correctly listed as Central Asian in one of the largest and most reputed commercially available ancestry DNA testing databases.
> 
> AncestryDNA now lists all ethnic Pakistanis in the Central Asia - South category, as this is now the accepted norm in scientific research papers. Following the same norms, Afghanistan and Tajikistan are also included in the same category. I had earlier also reported the scientific research findings and papers concerning Pakistan, but seeing it now included in a major commercial ancestry genetic test is quite interesting.
> 
> The personal DNA testing company adds the following specific details for the region:
> 
> 
> *
> Images depicting the geographic region*
> 
> View attachment 585910
> View attachment 585911
> View attachment 585912


Wow we Muhajirs/Urdu Speakers are Central Asians now

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## maximuswarrior

GHALIB said:


> mamu ye batao tum bhi central asia se ? ya greek wala sikandar ?
> sindh walo ka tp pata nahi chal raha .



Teri gaand kyun itni jal rahi he? LOL Zyada mirche to nahin khaa li tune RSS ke putle.


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## Pakistani Fighter

cloud4000 said:


> Indians and Pakistanis are nationalities (and only 70-years-old. at that) and it has nothing to do with DNA. Indians and Pakistanis can share the same DNA but it doesn't mean we are alike. Religion, language, and culture also play a big part.
> 
> I sent my DNA to 23andMe.com and got back the result of being South Asian with a smattering of Central Asian blood. I have the blood of invaders, it seems.
> 
> Still, it's an interesting exercise or those who want to do it. You may be surprised by who you really are.


How to send DNA?


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## GHALIB

maximuswarrior said:


> Teri gaand kyun itni jal rahi he? LOL Zyada mirche to nahin khaa li tune RSS ke putle.


me lord ,don't be angry 
Clear one thing you are indus valley people or greek central arab asian ?


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## SIPRA

GHALIB said:


> me lord ,don't be angry
> Clear one thing you are indus valley people or greek central arab asian ?



"Hum mowahid haen, hamaara kaish hae tark e rasoom
Millatain jab mit gaeen, ijza e imaan ho gaeen"
(Ghalib)

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## Adonis

What is the use of threads like this? Just a mud-slinging act of kids from both sides.

One question....we say Pakistanis are not Indians DNA wise....not entirely true....the whole subcontinent has been a big melting pot for centuries..for world cultures and religions to mix, evolve and flourish. There is no monolith....DNA sample of some Pakistan can match with DNA sample of some Indians or vice versa.

Do we call MA Jinnah Pakistani? If yes, His grandfather was a Hindu Baniya from Kathiawad, Gujrat, India.
Do we call Allama Iqbal Pakistani? If yes, his father was a Hindu Kashmiri Pandit.

So if not all, DNA of most of Pakistani and Indian (especially from north and west of India) will have similarities.

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## Cookie Monster

Sine Nomine said:


> It's not difficult,any tribe which has been away from any major route would have pure race without mixing,and there are lot and lot of them.


Do u like to argue just for the sake of argument?

Let's discuss CONTEXT here. We(me and Ghalib) were discussing genetic mixing in the region that has occurred over thousands of years(so I guess thanks for pointing out the OBVIOUS fact that regions that are cut off wouldn't have mixing...was that even a point of discussion? Did anyone say that isolated pockets of humans have mixing of genes?)

Next up...yes there still exist tribes that are uncontacted(not unknown just uncontacted...we know about their existence and their location...they are not contacted mainly to keep them safe from us bcuz they are most likely not immune to the common diseases that we are immune to).

Knowing that above...I worded it exactly to take into account the existence of groups of populations where mixing did not occur. This is why I never said that "ppl where mixing did not occur do not exist"

Lastly what was being discussed was in terms of GENETIC MAKE UP(mixed vs non mixed) and not in terms of GEOGRAPHICAL LOCATION. So when u say that it's NOT DIFFICULT to find them...well of course we know their location...humans have explored the whole world by now...including even the most remote places like Antarctica.
The point was the ratio of mixed vs non mixed. The uncontacted tribes(including the Andaman inhabitants and all the various tribes deep in the Amazon) don't amount to a huge number and therefore as a ratio of mixed vs non mixed...they are very rare.

Now do u have anything else super obvious to state out of context? Or can we not waste time with pointless tangents?

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## -blitzkrieg-

Nein said:


> Well its in the dna majority of Pakistanis can actually trace a central asian ancestor.
> 
> Many Pakistanis are pro Turk and Turkic many also have the surname Khan.
> 
> So many Turkic Empires ruled Pakistan. Babur also had Ottoman Turk volunteers.
> 
> Our history is so interwined so it is stupid to say the relations between Turks and Pakistan is like 60 years old when you have 1000+ history of relations.



It starts back in the medieval times.

Ghaznavids are forefathers of modern day Pakistan and Afghanistan. Seljuks are the forefathers of modern day Turkey. Both Ghaznavids and Seljuks are people of Uzbek land of Central Asia .One migrated east while other migrated west, both even had similar banner(green flag with crescent ).The one in my display pic is the Ghanznavid flag. It turned into Pakistans flag today.

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## SingHee

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Wow we Muhajirs/Urdu Speakers are Central Asians now



It's a genetic test, so you'd have to be carrying the same DNA as most indigenous Pakistanis or Central Asians to be listed in the same category.


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## Shah_Deu

interesting how UNESCO defines Central Asia.

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## khanmubashir

POTTER said:


> Oye madarchod Pakistan ka map sahi waala use kar aur iss report ki 32 bana k g** mein layy. @Mods is false flag poster ko check karna.


i didn't bang yr mom Sonny must be an other gang
I was replying to an Indian about proof of Aryan invasion theory giving reference of an American journal of genetics if u have issue with the link then do yr Rundi Rona with that journal my child 
i too don't like the paper showing kashmir part of India but it ain't my doing Sonny 
but even thus Indian written paper confirm Aryan invasion and that north and South; Indian r genetically different so read the results my child


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## Dubious

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> Actually inaccurate, the "Turkic/Mongolian" genetic contribution is less than 2-3% to Pakistanis, but spikes in Burushos and Hazaras, though their numbers are not that great to affect the average.
> 
> Secondly, this genetic component would be categorized under 'East Asian', not 'Central Asian'. This is highlighted in this data graph.
> View attachment 585921
> 
> 
> Our two main components are from Iranian Neolithic Farmers (IVC) and Indo-European migrants (Aryans). This is also similarly shared with NW and High-caste Indians though they have significantly less Indo-European admixture.
> 
> When comparing Iron-age samples of the Indus Region (Vedic Age), we can see that genetically not much has changed except for a shift towards Central Asian/Steppe which can be explained by the Scythian/Kushan/Bactrian migrations that occurred.


Kindly provide the source

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## Dubious

Gandhi G in da house said:


> https://www.jstor.org/stable/41927733?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents
> 
> Clyde Ahmad has published as well.
> 
> The Dravidian theory is the most widely accepted theory about the IVC now. There are many more sources on the internet about this besides what I posted.


I think you are out dated to post something from 1990 and claiming it to be the "most widely accepted"....Kindly come into the 21st century and see how much has changed ESPECIALLY due to new markers associated in studies in 2010 and forward!

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## Imran Khan

GHALIB said:


> mamu ye batao tum bhi central asia se ? ya greek wala sikandar ?
> sindh walo ka tp pata nahi chal raha .


According to Baloch lore, their ancestors hail from Aleppo in what is now Syria

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## Foxtrot Delta

Thank God Almighty! we aint' south asian to begin with atleast not majority. especially not us kashmiris. we are happy with persian or central asian association of genome. anything that seperates us from indian identity is a positive thing. Good ridance.

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## Gandhi G in da house

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> It is a popular theory, but definitely not the most widely accepted theory.
> 
> Also, these "Dravidians of IVC" are no where close to the Dravidians of today, who mostly descend from an indigenous population that adopted the language of the IVC migrants.
> 
> 
> All populations are immigrant populations, ancestors of the IVC are thought to have come from Elam (Southern Iran) or the fertile crescent while the ancestors of the Vedic Aryans originated from the steppes of Siberia.





Dubious said:


> I think you are out dated to post something from 1990 and claiming it to be the "most widely accepted"....Kindly come into the 21st century and see how much has changed ESPECIALLY due to new markers associated in studies in 2010 and forward!



There are recent studies too which say the same thing. I just posted what I could easily find online. Besides this source, I posted another source. Further, just because they are old doesn't mean they are not true. Even Talwar E Pakistani accepts that this is the most popular theory even at present if not the most widely accepted.


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## GHALIB

Imran Khan said:


> According to Baloch lore, their ancestors hail from Aleppo in what is now Syria


very good


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## Pakhtoon yum

GHALIB said:


> that's good , greek, arab, turk ,chinese , aryan , mangol , mixed in pakistan .


@everyone look guys another obsessed swamp dweller. They have this mental illness where anything to do with Pakistan, they will start aqweeling, jumping up and down like pigs. 



Gandhi G in da house said:


> There are recent studies too which say the same thing. I just posted what I could easily find online. Besides this source, I posted another source. Further, just because they are old doesn't mean they are not true. Even Talwar E Pakistani accepts that this is the most popular theory even at present if not the most widely accepted.


Yes cause @Talwar e Pakistan is a historian and the fact that everyone else disagrees with his bs should tell you otherwise. Alas your an Indian and you will go to any lengths to prove that people of paktistan are just like you Indians, because if you dont then you cant look at yourself in the mirror and say you look marginally better, with invaders blood.

@waz @Arsalan @Dubious can you take care of these aboriginals, that are derailing this thread. Can we not talk about Pakistan on a Pakistani forum in peace. Without them having to sqweel like pigs, everytime we discuss something about us and our ancestors?

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## SingHee

The region is also largely matched to the Durrani Empire, which was based on close cultural and ethnic kinship.







A description of how the region closely co-operated:





Source

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## Gandhi G in da house

Pakhtoon yum said:


> @everyone look guys another obsessed swamp dweller. They have this mental illness where anything to do with Pakistan, they will start aqweeling, jumping up and down like pigs.
> 
> 
> Yes cause @Talwar e Pakistan is a historian and the fact that everyone else disagrees with his bs should tell you otherwise. Alas your an Indian and you will go to any lengths to prove that people of paktistan are just like you Indians, because if you dont then you cant look at yourself in the mirror and say you look marginally better, with invaders blood.
> 
> @waz @Arsalan @Dubious can you take care of these aboriginals, that are derailing this thread. Can we not talk about Pakistan on a Pakistani forum in peace. Without them having to sqweel like pigs, everytime we discuss something about us and our ancestors?



Talwar e Pakistan at least provides some sources for what he writes unlike you.

Anyway, you know you can put me on ignore right ? Since my posts are bothering you so much. Here, let me do the honours. You can follow suit.

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## cloud4000

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> How to send DNA?



You contact them and they will send you a kit. I use 23andMe.com and I sent them a sample of my saliva. It's not for free but you get lifetime access to your data. As more people send in samples, the more accurate the results.

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## Jackdaws

-blitzkrieg- said:


> SAARC? who is she?


Google is your friend.


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## POTTER

khanmubashir said:


> i didn't bang yr mom Sonny must be an other gang
> I was replying to an Indian about proof of Aryan invasion theory giving reference of an American journal of genetics if u have issue with the link then do yr Rundi Rona with that journal my child
> i too don't like the paper showing kashmir part of India but it ain't my doing Sonny
> but even thus Indian written paper confirm Aryan invasion and that north and South; Indian r genetically different so read the results my child


Then why was you replying to my comment Bro???


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## Talwar e Pakistan

SingHee said:


> Languages do indeed mix and develop as you say, but we do know that they carry similar genetics as other Central Asian populations and the R1 Y-chromosome haplogroup in much of the population. Therefore, as they mixed with similar people at the same time as the Persian language was being formed in the region, it must be assumed they were speakers of a very similar language at the time.



There is overwhelming evidence to conclude that our ancestors have always been Indo-Aryan speakers since the post-Harrapan times, there has never been a dispute to that and there never will be.

Vedic Sanskrit was developed in the North Indus Region while classical Sanskrit was contrived by Panini, an ancient scholar from Taxila; a town that still stands and is right next to our capital. From there it was spread Eastwards to modern-day Indians. 



krash said:


> The modern formalised form of Pashto came later. Proto-Pashto is recorded as far back as the time of the Greco-Bactrian Kingdoms, also evidenced by Pashto's import of Greek words.


Could you provide sources for this "proto-Pashto". The loanwords found in Pashto with Greek origins most likely comes from Gandhari, which has significantly more Greek loanwords. 



krash said:


> Incorrect. Cyrus' armies physically invaded modern day Pakistan from north west and then worked their way south. These conquered lands were made into the satrapies (provinces) of Gandara (known as Parapamisadae by the Greeks), Sattagydia and Maka. We know of the former two from the Behistun Inscription. The Greek historians Xenophon and Ctesias even suggest that Cyrus conquered as far as into modern day India. Modern historians however place these satrapies till the banks of Indus.


I never stated that Cyrus's army did not physically invade modern-day Pakistan. He did in fact successfully invade the Indus Region and divided the region into "Satrapies" (on paper), autonomous tributary states. 

However, there is no evidence to suggest of a prolonged Persian presence in the region, they had simply invaded and forced the various petty Kingdoms and tribes to pay tribute or they would face another attack. When the Macedonians reached the Indus Region, there was no indication of Persian authority or presence. All the various tribes, peoples and Kingdoms the Macedonians encountered were indigenous. 



Pan-Islamic-Pakistan said:


> That region of Mongolia, Tarim Basin (Xinjiang), and its neighboring areas were the origins of several groups of people.
> 
> Not only Mongols, but the Huns, Turks/Turkics, and Iranic (not Iranian) people originated from this area.


The region of Mongolia is the origin of Mongol and Turkic (Mongoloid) peoples who displaced the Iranic peoples of Central Asia. 

You also need to differentiate between Turk and Turkic.


Pan-Islamic-Pakistan said:


> Pakistan’s *Karakorum* range traces its name to Mongolia’s similarly named place. Translated to ‘black mountains,’ it also features heavily in Turkish history.


That is the name Turkic traders ascribed to it and was adopted by British Raj officials, historically there has been various names for the range.

Secondly, the etymology of a mountain range on our far Northern tip is not representative of our origins or genetic makeup. There definitely was some Turkic migrations into that region (Northern West Himalayas), as evident in the physical features of the Balti people, but these are anomaly groups like the Hazara and Bhils, that are again, not representative of mainstream Pakistani ethnic groups.

Muhajirs from South India, does not make Pakistan a South Indian country. 


Pan-Islamic-Pakistan said:


> Our traditional cultural trade (carpets, furs, caps, jewelry, dyes, cloth, fabrics) are a remnant of our nomadic Iranic roots (which is why they resemble other nomadic origin people like Turks and Mongols.)


Most of these actually have indigenous origins, with some influence from neighboring and migrant peoples. 



Pakhtoon yum said:


> Are u mad? So all those greeks that lived in what is now Pakistan just magically dissapeared? Also there were records of pakhtoons absorbing turkic tribes into our culture. Those must have vanished into thin air too.


The Greeks that once lived in modern-day Pakistan were absorbed and their genetic contribution diluted. Look at the descendants of Mughal Emperor Shah Bahadur to get an idea.



Pakhtoon yum said:


> Pakistan is Pakistan, its greek, arab, turkic, chinese, aryan, and south asian.



What...?
"South Asia" is a geographic term and does not denote ethnicity or race in any way. All the other people you named have absolutely little to no genetic contribution except for the Indo-Europeans (Aryans).

As I stated earlier, Pakistanis come from two main genetic components, Iranian Neolithic Farmers (IVC) and Indo-European herders (Aryans). There is a third major component that came in the form of Iranic steppe migrants such as Kushans, Bactrians, Scythians; but they pale in comparison to the first two components. 



Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Wow we Muhajirs/Urdu Speakers are Central Asians now


If you are a Muhajir, you ancestry tests would be consistent to the people of the region you migrated from.



Adonis said:


> Do we call MA Jinnah Pakistani? If yes, His grandfather was a Hindu Baniya from Kathiawad, Gujrat, India.
> Do we call Allama Iqbal Pakistani? If yes, his father was a Hindu Kashmiri Pandit.


The Indus Region and it's ethno-cultural zone extends beyond Pakistan into IoK, NW India and Parts of Afghanistan. 



Adonis said:


> So if not all, DNA of most of Pakistani and Indian (especially from north and west of India) will have similarities.


All humans have genetic similarities, mainstream Pakistani ethnic groups (Pashtuns,Punjabis,Sindhis,Baloch,Kashmiris,etc...) generally form their own genetic clusters which also usually includes NW Indians such as East Punjabis. 



Imran Khan said:


> According to Baloch lore, their ancestors hail from Aleppo in what is now Syria


According to the lore of most of our tribes, we descend from some Prophet or companion of the Prophet. So these "lores" have no credibility. 



Foxtrot Delta said:


> Thank God Almighty! we aint' south asian to begin with atleast not majority. especially not us kashmiris. we are happy with persian or central asian association of genome. anything that seperates us from indian identity is a positive thing. Good ridance.


This is cringe. We are South Asian as it's a geographic term. Genetically, we form our own cluster that is distinct from Central Asians, Persians or Indians...



Pakhtoon yum said:


> Yes cause @Talwar e Pakistan is a historian and the fact that everyone else disagrees with his bs should tell you otherwise. Alas your an Indian and you will go to any lengths to prove that people of paktistan are just like you Indians, because if you dont then you cant look at yourself in the mirror and say you look marginally better, with invaders blood.


Brother, I also study anthropology which deals in genetics to some degree. If you have an issue with my posts, you are free to refute them using reputable sources.

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## SingHee

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> There is overwhelming evidence to conclude that our ancestors have always been Indo-Aryan speakers since the post-Harrapan times, there has never been a dispute to that and there never will be.
> 
> Vedic Sanskrit was developed in the North Indus Region while classical Sanskrit was contrived by Panini, an ancient scholar from Taxila; a town that still stands and is right next to our capital. From there it was spread Eastwards to modern-day Indians.



I think there is overwhelming evidence to conclude that your ancestors have always been something Indo speakers.

The fact that indigenous Pakistanis have been placed in a completely separate genetic region will be sufficient for most intelligent people to get the idea, and move on.

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## baajey

Progressive1 said:


> Pakistan is bridge between central asia and south asia.


of all the egotistical comments, this one-liner can never be nearer to the truth.

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## GHALIB

this is very tough to find truth between indus valley pakistanis vs central asean DNA pakistanis , 
which one is pakistani ? 
indus valley moved to central asia ? then came back to pakistan ?



Pakhtoon yum said:


> @everyone look guys another obsessed swamp dweller. They have this mental illness where anything to do with Pakistan, they will start aqweeling, jumping up and down like pigs.
> 
> 
> Yes cause @Talwar e Pakistan is a historian and the fact that everyone else disagrees with his bs should tell you otherwise. Alas your an Indian and you will go to any lengths to prove that people of paktistan are just like you Indians, because if you dont then you cant look at yourself in the mirror and say you look marginally better, with invaders blood.
> 
> @waz @Arsalan @Dubious can you take care of these aboriginals, that are derailing this thread. Can we not talk about Pakistan on a Pakistani forum in peace. Without them having to sqweel like pigs, everytime we discuss something about us and our ancestors?



very good .


----------



## Indus Pakistan

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> There is overwhelming evidence to conclude that our ancestors have always been Indo-Aryan speakers since the post-Harrapan times, there has never been a dispute to that and there never will be.
> 
> Vedic Sanskrit was developed in the North Indus Region while classical Sanskrit was contrived by Panini, an ancient scholar from Taxila; a town that still stands and is right next to our capital. From there it was spread Eastwards to modern-day Indians.
> 
> 
> Could you provide sources for this "proto-Pashto". The loanwords found in Pashto with Greek origins most likely comes from Gandhari, which has significantly more Greek loanwords.
> 
> 
> I never stated that Cyrus's army did not physically invade modern-day Pakistan. He did in fact successfully invade the Indus Region and divided the region into "Satrapies" (on paper), autonomous tributary states.
> 
> However, there is no evidence to suggest of a prolonged Persian presence in the region, they had simply invaded and forced the various petty Kingdoms and tribes to pay tribute or they would face another attack. When the Macedonians reached the Indus Region, there was no indication of Persian authority or presence. All the various tribes, peoples and Kingdoms the Macedonians encountered were indigenous.
> 
> 
> The region of Mongolia is the origin of Mongol and Turkic (Mongoloid) peoples who displaced the Iranic peoples of Central Asia.
> 
> You also need to differentiate between Turk and Turkic.
> 
> That is the name Turkic traders ascribed to it and was adopted by British Raj officials, historically there has been various names for the range.
> 
> Secondly, the etymology of a mountain range on our far Northern tip is not representative of our origins or genetic makeup. There definitely was some Turkic migrations into that region (Northern West Himalayas), as evident in the physical features of the Balti people, but these are anomaly groups like the Hazara and Bhils, that are again, not representative of mainstream Pakistani ethnic groups.
> 
> Muhajirs from South India, does not make Pakistan a South Indian country.
> 
> Most of these actually have indigenous origins, with some influence from neighboring and migrant peoples.
> 
> 
> The Greeks that once lived in modern-day Pakistan were absorbed and their genetic contribution diluted. Look at the descendants of Mughal Emperor Shah Bahadur to get an idea.
> 
> 
> 
> What...?
> "South Asia" is a geographic term and does not denote ethnicity or race in any way. All the other people you named have absolutely little to no genetic contribution except for the Indo-Europeans (Aryans).
> 
> As I stated earlier, Pakistanis come from two main genetic components, Iranian Neolithic Farmers (IVC) and Indo-European herders (Aryans). There is a third major component that came in the form of Iranic steppe migrants such as Kushans, Bactrians, Scythians; but they pale in comparison to the first two components.
> 
> 
> If you are a Muhajir, you ancestry tests would be consistent to the people of the region you migrated from.
> 
> 
> The Indus Region and it's ethno-cultural zone extends beyond Pakistan into IoK, NW India and Parts of Afghanistan.
> 
> 
> All humans have genetic similarities, mainstream Pakistani ethnic groups (Pashtuns,Punjabis,Sindhis,Baloch,Kashmiris,etc...) generally form their own genetic clusters which also usually includes NW Indians such as East Punjabis.
> 
> 
> According to the lore of most of our tribes, we descend from some Prophet or companion of the Prophet. So these "lores" have no credibility.
> 
> 
> This is cringe. We are South Asian as it's a geographic term. Genetically, we form our own cluster that is distinct from Central Asians, Persians or Indians...
> 
> 
> Brother, I also study anthropology which deals in genetics to some degree. If you have an issue with my posts, you are free to refute them using reputable sources.


I just want to say your posts are solid in their content and inspiring. If I became PM of Pakistan I would have you rewrite all of Pakistan's history books. In two decades we would have proud nation with a solid modern identity that would stand tall with the best.

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## Indus Pakistan

Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> @Indus Pakistan Afghania has always been part of Anicent, Historic Pakistan... CPEC will transform many things!


Thank you Mangus. Thank you. The man who coined the name 'PAKSTAN' had it right 100%. The proud and majestic peoples of Indus had no future with Ganga as their destinies are separate. One is royal and regal. The other ......

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## GHALIB

Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> *Pakistani TeaSeller*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Gangu TeaSeller*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *We are Paks, Pak is OurLand... From Ladakh to Taftan..!*
> 
> @Indus Pakistan Afghania has always been part of Anicent, Historic Pakistan... CPEC will transform many things!



i will be happy if all indus valley civilization of pakistan proves to have central asian DNA , better even beyond that reach to slav DNA .



Indus Pakistan said:


> Thank you Mangus. Thank you. The man who coined the name 'PAKSTAN' had it right 100%. The proud and majestic peoples of Indus had no future with Ganga as their destinies are separate. One is royal and regal. The other ......



very good .

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## Indus Pakistan

GHALIB said:


> i will be happy if all indus valley civilization of pakistan proves to have central asian DNA , better even beyond that reach to slav DNA .


Curious what medical condition you suffer from that makes you so happy/not happy about our heritage. Should you not be celebrating your own? And leave ours to us.

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## Indus Pakistan

Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> If you were so naughty all the time... people won't call you racist... stop being that for once... you are too bored these days!


Okay, I will try to behave.

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## GHALIB

Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> Brother mine, *Allama Iqbal *went to meet then Afghan King... Do you know what Allama Iqbal called Afghania and his poetry.?
> 
> *Afghania has always been One of Us as we are One of them. We are One*.... let CPEC take shape... we need to get Ganguz out of Afghania first for good!
> 
> We just need to liberate OurRivers... all of them. And in due time take back our *Heritage *and *Artefacts *from Ganguz... along with *40% of Civlisational Land...*
> 
> For the rest bugger all!
> 
> If you were so naughty all the time... people won't call you racist... stop being that for once... you are too bored these days!



allamas ancestors/ father was hindu brahmin.

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## Indus Pakistan

Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> Do we have a dedicated thread regarding our *Civilisational Landscape*?


I did some threads on that but I think it might be time to tidy/improve them.



GHALIB said:


> allamas ancestors/ father was hindu brahmin.


So? The point is?



Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> f you could post it...please.


Himachel Pradesh? It does fall within the Indus hinterland.

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## Indus Pakistan

Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> They stole Our Heritage... we brought Civlisation to them... even Hinduism... and after that for 1000years we brought everything... from Language to musics to cusine... poetry... architecture... on and on...
> 
> But... we cann't have a thread for Paks alone...without Ganguz... this is the price we pay!!!
> 
> 
> 
> Yes.. this one... it is part of the LowerKashmirRegion... thus Ours!


The problem with Indians is and I know this will sound counter-intuitive and sound crazy they all want to be Pakistani's. Thus the adoption of our heritage, cuisine, dress. If you look at old Indian movies [even from 1980s to 1990s you will notice the preponderance of sari/dhotis. Today all that has been washed away and shalwar kameez has been adopted eve in South India and Bangladesh. Whereas before this dress was limited to Indian Punjab.

They hate us but want to be us.

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## Indus Pakistan

When was last time you saw Indian's wanting to claim or ape Bangladeshi's? Indeed it's other way around. They do their best to disconnect from them. When Bangladesh is far more closer in culture and genes with India.



Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> both good and ugly!


hahaha ... nice one. I think we are tad too wild for our own good.

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## GHALIB

Indus Pakistan said:


> The problem with Indians is and I know this will sound counter-intuitive and sound crazy they all want to be Pakistani's. Thus the adoption of our heritage, cuisine, dress. If you look at old Indian movies [even from 1980s to 1990s you will notice the preponderance of sari/dhotis. Today all that has been washed away and shalwar kameez has been adopted eve in South India and Bangladesh. Whereas before this dress was limited to Indian Punjab.
> 
> They hate us but want to be us.



what about industanis wearing pant shirt , suit , jeans , jackets , ? they want to become anglo saxon ?


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## Indus Pakistan

Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> Rule Pakistania!


Yes sir !



GHALIB said:


> what about industanis wearing pant shirt , suit , jeans , jackets


Those are global forms. The world wears them. Shalwar Kameez is specific to Af-Pak region with some crossover into Indian Punjab which is in our shadow.

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## Indus Pakistan

GHALIB said:


> but i think those dresses are easy to wear and better for working in home or outside


So after 1 million years of great Ganga civilization they discovered this today? Mashallah. Basically "copy Af-Pak" as I said before. Strange the Filipinos, Thai etc don't copy us.

But as @Talwar e Pakistan will tell you, you got your religion from us, your language from us so you might as well get your dress from us.


And @Mangus Ortus Novem the finest of the finest off to guard the majestic Indus.

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## GHALIB

Indus Pakistan said:


> So after 1 million years of great Ganga civilization they discovered this today? Mashallah. Basically "copy Af-Pak" as I said before. Strange the Filipinos, Thai etc don't copy us.
> 
> But as @Talwar e Pakistan will tell you, you got your religion from us, your language from us so you might as well get your dress from us.
> 
> 
> And @Mangus Ortus Novem the finest of the finest off to guard the majestic Indus.



very good ,
so shalwar kamiz is from indus valley or central asia ?
nobody wears in battle ?


----------



## Indus Pakistan

GHALIB said:


> so shalwar kamiz is from indus valley or central asia ?


Both regions overlap. That should answer your question.

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## GHALIB

Indus Pakistan said:


> Both regions overlap. That should answer your question.



indus valley dwellers used shalwar kamiz ?


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## Indus Pakistan

GHALIB said:


> ndus valley dwellers used shalwar kamiz ?


Did I say that? Nobody wears, talks or even looks exactly the same from 7,000 years ago. They call it evolution. This conversation with you is just waste of time and is ending now. Go put on a sari and cool down in the Holy Ganga.

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## GHALIB

Indus Pakistan said:


> Did I say that? Nobody wears, talks or even looks exactly the same from 7,000 years ago. They call it evolution. This conversation with you is just waste of time and is ending now. Go put on a sari and cool down in the Holy Ganga.



thanks 
same applies to indians , they are also changing , not following your industan .


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## Pakhtoon yum

GHALIB said:


> such a great race , .
> i wish good for industanis to achieve good economy , education , and a good reputation in middle east and european countries .
> amen.


@waz @Dubious @Arsalan @WebMaster is anyone going take care of this mental case? He has tried so hard to derail this thread.

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## baajey

GHALIB said:


> such a great race , .
> i wish good for *industanis* to achieve good economy , education , and a good reputation in middle east and european countries .
> amen.


one frigging "H" before the bolded part, and they will adopt our name 
i ponder if they are so great why did they concede "their name-*Industan*", let India take the name, and adopted a "new made up" name with provinces in it ?
its alladin news or the alladin news?.....

PS: ab chhod to inhe tangg karna. khhwaamkha (from the epiglotis 2 times) ki pareshani hoti hai inko. why should boys have all the fun ? scooty ka ad tha na ?

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## Taimur Khurram

GHALIB said:


> allamas ancestors/ father was hindu brahmin.



Who converted to Islam.


----------



## khanmubashir

Gandhi G in da house said:


> Pakistanis are Central Asians not South Asians. Time for celebrations in Pakistan.


actually by genetics even north India should be included in central asia Sonny 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3769933/#!po=0.303030
this research paper is written by Indian scientist published in international journal read and reduce yr ignorance Sonny
here's the abstract
Most Indian groups descend from a mixture of two genetically divergent populations: Ancestral North Indians (ANI) related to Central Asians, Middle Easterners, Caucasians, and Europeans; and Ancestral South Indians (ASI) not closely related to groups outside the subcontinent. The date of mixture is unknown but has implications for understanding Indian history. We report genome-wide data from 73 groups from the Indian subcontinent


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*NefariousFULL MEMBER*





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Good stuff. Whats with the butthurt, no need for ganga swampees to be upset.

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+ QuoteReply
Thursday at 10:41 PM#30



*GHALIBSENIOR MEMBER*




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↑
Nice. Does that mean Pak will be leaving SAARC?
it looks so .





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----------



## Talwar e Pakistan

GHALIB said:


> very good ,
> so shalwar kamiz is from indus valley or central asia ?
> nobody wears in battle ?


Shalwar Kameez originates from a blend of various cultures and there are many variants of it, the most popular is thought to have originated from Punjab.

Much of Pakistani clothing can be traced to the Kushans who were based in Peshawar and Taxila.






The cut that you see on the sides that is unique to the Kameez is thought to have derived from the need to better accommodate horse-riding.

*There was also a shorter belted and more loose version of the kameez that was popular among the warriors (light infantry), it was utilized in the Indus Region up till the 18th century and is depicted among countless reliefs, primarily in Gandhara.*













Female version





Sikh Warriors also utilized this, but often with shorts as a better way to traverse muddy fields.






18th century Sindhi Warriors







GHALIB said:


> indus valley dwellers used shalwar kamiz ?


If you mean the people of the IVC, then no, Shalwar Kameez came much later. They did however wear an earlier form of what is now known as the Sindhi Arjak.



khanmubashir said:


> actually by genetics even north India should be included in central asia Sonny
> 
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3769933/#!po=0.303030
> this research paper is written by Indian scientist published in international journal read and reduce yr ignorance Sonny
> here's the abstract
> Most Indian groups descend from a mixture of two genetically divergent populations: Ancestral North Indians (ANI) related to Central Asians, Middle Easterners, Caucasians, and Europeans; and Ancestral South Indians (ASI) not closely related to groups outside the subcontinent. The date of mixture is unknown but has implications for understanding Indian history. We report genome-wide data from 73 groups from the Indian subcontinent


North Indians do have "Central Asian" blood, accredited to the Indo-Aryans, however it is extremely low and is mostly found in high-caste Brahmins who make up a tiny portion of the North Indian population; it's really not much compared to what is found among Pakistani ethnic groups.

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## GHALIB

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> Shalwar Kameez originates from a blend of various cultures and there are many variants of it, the most popular is though to have originated from Punjab.
> 
> Much of Pakistani clothing can be traced to the Kushans who were based in Peshawar and Taxila.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The cut that you see on the sides that is unique to the Kameez is thought to have derived from the need to better accommodate horse-riding.
> 
> *There was also a shorter belted and more loose version of the kameez that was popular among the warriors (light infantry), it was utilized in the Indus Region up till the 18th century and is depicted among countless reliefs, primarily in Gandhara.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Female version
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sikh Warriors also utilized this, but often with shorts as a better way to traverse muddy fields.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 18th century Sindhi Warriors
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you mean the people of the IVC, then no, Shalwar Kameez came much later. They did however wear an earlier form of what is now known as the Sindhi Arjak.
> 
> 
> North Indians do have "Central Asian" blood, accredited to the Indo-Aryans, however it is extremely low and is mostly found in high-caste Brahmins who make up a tiny portion of the North Indian population; it's really not much compared to what is found among Pakistani ethnic groups.



very good information , 
one indus valley person here claimed shalwar kurta is pakistani , so indians wear them because they want to copy pakistanis.


----------



## Talwar e Pakistan

GHALIB said:


> very good information ,
> one indus valley person here claimed shalwar kurta is pakistani , so indians wear them because they want to copy pakistanis.


It was indeed spread from modern-day Pakistan to what is now known as India. It's just another natural example of cultural exchange.



Indus Pakistan said:


> even from 1980s to 1990s you will notice the preponderance of sari/dhotis


Dhotis too were derived from the Indus Region and then was spread Eastwards into modern-day India. The earliest depictions were found in Gandhara, in the same archaeological period; Indians were depicted as wearing loincloths or simple wraps around their waist; with the rest of the body being usually naked.

Early forms of sari as well, which is derived from the Indo-Greeks (who were primarily based in the Indus Region), though it still greatly differentiates from the modern-Indian Saris, especially among the Indian variants where the belly is naked.






These attires were spread to what is now known as India, where at the same time, they became out-of-fashion in the Indus Region with the arrival of the Kushans.

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## Pakhtoon yum

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> It was indeed spread from modern-day Pakistan to what is now known as India. It's just another natural example of cultural exchange.
> 
> 
> Dhotis too were derived from the Indus Region and then was spread Eastwards into modern-day India. The earliest depictions were found in Gandhara, in the same archaeological period; Indians were depicted as wearing loincloths or simple wraps around their waist; with the rest of the body being usually naked.
> 
> Early forms of sari as well, which is derived from the Indo-Greeks (who were primarily based in the Indus Region), though it still greatly differentiates from the modern-Indian Saris, especially among the Indian variants where the belly is naked.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These attires were spread to what is now known as India, where at the same time, they became out-of-fashion in the Indus Region with the arrival of the Kushans.


You and the curry he has will not help his butthurt

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## Pan-Islamic-Pakistan

Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> *OurLand*, *OurBeautifulLand*... *OurPeople*, *OurBeautifulPeople*....
> 
> I just wish that we become *Centre *of *Learning *once again as we have been through mellenia...
> 
> If you look carefully our tradition cusines are fundamentally different... you start from *SriNagar*...travel *North*..through *Afghania *all the way to *TurkicLands *and land in *Turkiye*.... see there is a unertone in this symphony that is us Paks!
> 
> I wish *YoungPaks *could see what Pakistan is!
> 
> We are part of *Eurasia*... always have been always will be...
> 
> I am fully aware of my *PakBias*...however, I do see *EmergingPakistan*.
> 
> *I dare say Rule Pakistania!*



Exactly, more Pakistanis should learn about our nomadic roots (along with IVC farmers,) our cultural links to Iran, Turkey, Central Asia, and Mongolia are an important part of our identity.

Right now I see Turks and Pakistan as two parallel histories and mindsets.



Talwar e Pakistan said:


> Shalwar Kameez originates from a blend of various cultures and there are many variants of it, the most popular is though to have originated from Punjab.
> 
> Much of Pakistani clothing can be traced to the Kushans who were based in Peshawar and Taxila.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The cut that you see on the sides that is unique to the Kameez is thought to have derived from the need to better accommodate horse-riding.
> 
> *There was also a shorter belted and more loose version of the kameez that was popular among the warriors (light infantry), it was utilized in the Indus Region up till the 18th century and is depicted among countless reliefs, primarily in Gandhara.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Female version
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sikh Warriors also utilized this, but often with shorts as a better way to traverse muddy fields.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 18th century Sindhi Warriors
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you mean the people of the IVC, then no, Shalwar Kameez came much later. They did however wear an earlier form of what is now known as the Sindhi Arjak.
> 
> 
> North Indians do have "Central Asian" blood, accredited to the Indo-Aryans, however it is extremely low and is mostly found in high-caste Brahmins who make up a tiny portion of the North Indian population; it's really not much compared to what is found among Pakistani ethnic groups.



Never realized Shalwar Kameez was that ancient. Great post.

That shorter, looser belted Gandhara Shalwar Kameez looks similar to the clothes worn by some Pukhtoons, particularly Khattak dancers.






As for Sikhs, they borrowed heavily from the Mughal and Muslim Rajput traditions. Which means such dress must have been common among Islamic empires as well.

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## Kabira

No need to gang up on Talwar e Pakistan. There is little to no greek, arab, persian admixture in any modern Pakistani ethnic group, tribe or what ever despite claims, invasions. They may have left some decedents but reason we don't see any evidence is because admixture is less then 1-2% at must.

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## B.K.N

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> the most popular is though to have originated from Punjab.


Shalwar qameez isn't Punjabi dress 
Until few decades back it wasn't popular even in Pakistani Punjab
You can find old people all over the Punjab who has never worn shalwar in their life 
Qameez and chadar is punjabi dress


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## Talwar e Pakistan

Brass Knuckles said:


> Shalwar qameez isn't Punjabi dress
> Until few decades back it wasn't popular even in Pakistani Punjab
> You can find old people all over the Punjab who has never worn shalwar in their life
> Qameez and chadar is punjabi dress


I did not say it is a "Punjabi attire", Shalwar Kameez overall only became known as the 'attire of the common man' recently. As I stated, there are many variants with each region/province having their own, the Punjabi variant is currently the most popular and widespread throughout Pakistan, becoming the standard for Shalwar Kameez.

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## B.K.N

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> I did not say it is a "Punjabi attire", Shalwar Kameez overall only became known as the 'attire of the common man' recently. As I stated, there are many variants with each region/province having their own, the Punjabi variant is currently the most popular and widespread throughout Pakistan, becoming the standard for Shalwar Kameez.


It's not punjabi version but westernised version copy of shirts collar cuff buttons everything is copy of shirts 
Only difference is Qameez is longer than shirt and shirt ki tarah full nhi khulta


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## Talwar e Pakistan

Pan-Islamic-Pakistan said:


> Never realized Shalwar Kameez was that ancient. Great post.
> 
> That shorter, looser belted Gandhara Shalwar Kameez looks similar to the clothes worn by some Pukhtoons, particularly Khattak dancers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As for Sikhs, they borrowed heavily from the Mughal and Muslim Rajput traditions. Which means such dress must have been common among Islamic empires as well.


Wow, I never really noticed that. Thought this variant was extinct. Will definitely note this down!

This reminds of the Chugha worn by the Northerners which also has its origins from the Kushans.

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## ps3linux

SingHee said:


> In line with scientific research findings, people of Pakistan origin are now listed as Central Asian in one of the largest and most reputed commercially available ancestry DNA testing databases.
> 
> AncestryDNA now lists all ethnic Pakistanis in the Central Asia - South category, as this is now the accepted norm in scientific research papers. Following the same norms, Afghanistan and Tajikistan are also included in the same category. I had earlier also reported the scientific research findings and papers concerning Pakistan, but seeing it now included in a major commercial ancestry genetic test is quite interesting.
> 
> The personal DNA testing company adds the following specific details for the region:
> 
> 
> *Images depicting the geographic region*
> 
> View attachment 585910
> View attachment 585911
> View attachment 586040



I wanted to participate in this thread earlier but somehow forgot, ancestry DNA is organized along the same lines as "Genographic Project" which essentially is a paid evaluation and costs a minimum of $100, ancestry DNA if I am not wrong is 79 British Pound. Over the period of time those who have opted for the test due to one reason or the other their data is collected, compiled and common markers are identified and classified. My understanding is all such initiatives share their data with other agencies like AncestrsyDNA with Genographic and a whole array of such projects.

What actually happening is that a sample from upper 5-10% of the population has been contributing to these test/databanks for one reason or the other, the sample size is very limited in scope and I know for sure that there are families/tribes out here in Pakistan which have never married outside their own blood line, there are communities which are totally isolated, I have no idea about the sample size but truly while those who could afford to go for this test for establishing their roots or those opting for the test to establish parental/descendant/sibling status is very limited.

While many have opted to establish the first one the second one is anathema. This data could not effectively establish its conclusion, unless it adds that the conclusion from the sample leads to the theory but the confidence interval is highly questionable and unless I missed something major out.

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## SingHee

Compared to other DNA ancestry testing companies, My Heritage specifically highlights Greek ancestry in their basic/free ancestry report.

For those interested in finding Greek/Macedonian DNA remnants, likely to be found in significant percentages (5%+) in people originating in the more northern parts of Pakistan/Afghanistan, MyHeritage will allow you to upload a DNA raw data file from most major personal test providers.

Here's the information they provide:












On the subject of Macedonian/Greek historic contributions in the region, the dress sense of the Greek kingdoms must have played a part, and this is especially evident in the hat worn in parts of Northern Pakistan.






Following images are from around the 4th-2nd century B.C.











Females above do show some obvious resemblance to historic women's dress of the region, and even much of what's still worn. However, most female dress to the west may have showed many similarities.

Male Macedonians/Greeks of the same time:






Source

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## SingHee

ps3linux said:


> I wanted to participate in this thread earlier but somehow forgot, ancestry DNA is organized along the same lines as "Genographic Project" which essentially is a paid evaluation and costs a minimum of $100, ancestry DNA if I am not wrong is 79 British Pound. Over the period of time those who have opted for the test due to one reason or the other their data is collected, compiled and common markers are identified and classified. My understanding is all such initiatives share their data with other agencies like AncestrsyDNA with Genographic and a whole array of such projects.



This would depend. In the West, any such sharing has to be disclosed to the end user for legal reasons. Also, many larger companies would rely on their database size and samples being distinct for competitive advantage.



ps3linux said:


> What actually happening is that a sample from upper 5-10% of the population has been contributing to these test/databanks for one reason or the other, the sample size is very limited in scope and I know for sure that there are families/tribes out here in Pakistan which have never married outside their own blood line, there are communities which are totally isolated, I have no idea about the sample size but truly while those who could afford to go for this test for establishing their roots or those opting for the test to establish parental/descendant/sibling status is very limited.



This again would depend. For e.g, regions with limited genetic flow from other parts of the world, like Scandinavia, would be much easier to classify even with relatively smaller sample population sizes. However, countries like Pakistan that sit in very prominent geography due to historic trade and countless migrations/empires, it would indeed become more difficult to correctly classify who's who and what originated where. In many ways, this question is answered by collecting large amounts of samples from other regions around the world where populations are less mixed, and then having to use historic knowledge to a certain extent to undo the complications. Of course, as sample sizes increase, this becomes much easier.

We could, of course, link the above to a simple test of comparing siblings, where a very large amount of genetic data is shared, and therefore it becomes relatively easier to identify origin. That said, ancestry and general familial relationship testing is quite different due to the basis for results being highly differentiated because of geography based markers.

Coming back to this particular test, as the database size increases, the results will start to become more accurate, but even 5-10% would be considered significant in most regions, and the test will therefore show a larger geographic area during initial result disclosure for such samples. Sticking to these tests, it is only now that the region in question is becoming much easier to classify from earlier times when only a larger geography was disclosed, and this will be due to an increase in sample size, much like tiny European countries sitting in Central Europe being quite difficult to classify with any kind of accuracy.

Overall, though, the recently published scientific papers that took samples from ancient population skeletons were a major turning point in making sense of much of this.



ps3linux said:


> While many have opted to establish the first one the second one is anathema. This data could not effectively establish its conclusion, unless it adds that the conclusion from the sample leads to the theory but the confidence interval is highly questionable and unless I missed something major out.



Well, as above, you can't really establish geographic status for a tribe that once lived in Southern Europe and moved in whole to a completely different but genetically close area, so ancient samples are needed to establish that connection. However, such data can never be truly accurate in some cases, but with very large sample sizes and more accurate ancient DNA tagged along with accurate historic information, much of the puzzle pieces will simply just fall in place.

As a consolation, most of the larger companies are continually updating their origin data as new information and data becomes available, which is exactly what has happened here.

All said, the biggest issue faced in the region was largely down to Indian origin scientists constantly withholding information or providing skewed results that threw everyone off, much of which I would put down to political meddling due to the promotion of a single unifying identity by the recent governments in that country. 

In fact, it was only when the linked report was published by over 90 world scientists, although continually delayed due to said nationality contributors, that the picture drastically changed. 

The very notion of the promotion of the Out-of-India theory given all the evidence speaks volumes on that account.


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## Ahmet Pasha

Like Turks we really are a mix. Cuz in ottomon and mughal days. Muslims and non muslims came from all over. 
So some turks are white, not so white, brown etc. Just stating what I've seen.

Same for Pakistan. 
We were an empire, an ummah
We were a melting pot
That is why I think one definition won't really suffice besides that of Islam perhaps.

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## SingHee

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Like Turks we really are a mix. Cuz in ottomon and mughal days. Muslims and non muslims came from all over.
> So some turks are white, not so white, brown etc. Just stating what I've seen.
> 
> Same for Pakistan.
> We were an empire, an ummah
> We were a melting pot
> That is why I think one definition won't really suffice besides that of Islam perhaps.



A balanced approach is always necessary, and in some cases complexity simply cannot be avoided without creating a distorted image.

The latter serves no one in the long run.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Still one name may be very hard to lavel Pakistanis as.
Like I said we were what USA is today.
True melting pot
Not a salad bowl like USA


SingHee said:


> A balanced approach is always necessary, and in some cases complexity simply cannot be avoided without creating a distorted image.
> 
> The latter serves no one in the long run.


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## SingHee

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Still one name may be very hard to lavel Pakistanis as.
> Like I said we were what USA is today.
> True melting pot
> Not a salad bowl like USA




Of course Pakistanis aren't like the USA in a modern sense, as there was no recent extinction like event for a specific people like the Native Indians of the American continent, resulting in a largely homogeneous population that has only had recent and limited contribution to the average inhabitant of the country. A comparison between the two in a genetic diversity sense would be meaningless.

In this particular case, a balanced approach would only mean that you simply cannot place Pakistanis as a whole in a single, simple definition, and no one outside of certain politically motivated parties would attempt to do so.

That would be like throwing away large chunks of Pakistan's history, formation of many traditions specific to smaller regions, basis for diversified cultural practices etc. Doing so would only weaken what made Pakistanis come together as a people in the first place, and only lead to a big brother like political domination.

No one should want that, especially given the vibrant and beautiful culture of the region.

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## Jaanbaz

Pakistan aren't a pure race guys and neither is most population in the world, some Pakistanis have a higher % of Central Asian no doubt and some have less, some have higher genetic link with older population similar to South Indians and some have lower. There is a lot of genetic diversity with in Pakistan and considering where its located in the world its not really that surprising.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Rashidun Empire and Ummayad Empire














Emirate Of Cardoba







Ayyubi Dynasty





Khwarezmian Empire









Muluk Dynasty



























World War 1






*The present (55 tribes ) *

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## Pakhtoon yum

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> I did not say it is a "Punjabi attire", Shalwar Kameez overall only became known as the 'attire of the common man' recently. As I stated, there are many variants with each region/province having their own, the Punjabi variant is currently the most popular and widespread throughout Pakistan, becoming the standard for Shalwar Kameez.


Punjabi version? That's the pakhtoon version. People of kpk and quetta have worn this type for a very long time. Shelwar kameez only got popular in Punjab after 1947, otherwise they wore their lungi thing. Stop trying to down play other ethnicities

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## Great Janjua

Shalwar kameez came from Punjab the shalwar is called Suthan and kameez kurta and we have other types as well tamba kurta etc


Pakhtoon yum said:


> Punjabi version? That's the pakhtoon version. People of kpk and quetta have worn this type for a very long time. Shelwar kameez only got popular in Punjab after 1947, otherwise they wore their lungi thing. Stop trying to down play other ethnicities

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## Behram Khilji

Salwar kameez is an Iranian origin dress, nothing Punjabi about it, Punjabis wear a nappy or lungi or whatever they call it.

They can claim what they wish but reality is very different.



Pakhtoon yum said:


> Punjabi version? That's the pakhtoon version. People of kpk and quetta have worn this type for a very long time. Shelwar kameez only got popular in Punjab after 1947, otherwise they wore their lungi thing. Stop trying to down play other ethnicities



These people claim others as their heroes so let them claim the attire too, doesn't bother us, they will label you and me as Afghan if we speak the truth and mind but they embrace Indian films, culture and open corridors for their fellow Indian Punjabis and they are still patriotic while we are traitors, Namak harams, Afghans and so on.

Well I rather be a Namak haram Afghan anyday then betray the blood of our shaheeds and forefathers who created this land


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## B.K.N

Pakhtoon yum said:


> Punjabi version? That's the pakhtoon version. People of kpk and quetta have worn this type for a very long time. Shelwar kameez only got popular in Punjab after 1947, otherwise they wore their lungi thing. Stop trying to down play other ethnicities


You are right shalwar qameez isn't punjabi dress 
Both men and women in Punjab used to wear chadar or lungi with qameez 


Behram Khilji said:


> These people claim others as their heroes so let them claim the attire too, doesn't bother us,


No one in Punjab claims Shalwar qameez originated from Punjab 
Indians claim it's Punjabi dress not Pakistani Punjabis

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## Behram Khilji

Brass Knuckles said:


> You are right shalwar qameez isn't punjabi dress
> Both men and women in Punjab used to wear chadar or lungi with qameez
> 
> No one in Punjab claims Shalwar qameez originated from Punjab
> Indians claim it's Punjabi dress not Pakistani Punjabis



What's the difference, Punjabis either side of the border is Punjabi no?.


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## B.K.N

Behram Khilji said:


> What's the difference, Punjabis either side of the border is Punjabi no?.


Indians claim it's Punjabi dress and Punjab is a province of India 
Punjabi dress = Indian dress

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## Talwar e Pakistan

Pakhtoon yum said:


> Punjabi version? That's the pakhtoon version. People of kpk and quetta have worn this type for a very long time.


That is the Punjabi variant and I'm not sure why it's so hard for you to accept that. Other ethnic groups historically have had different versions, most of which have become obsolete.

This is the Baloch Variant;









That Pashtuns have Khet Partug and Perahan Tunban types of Shalwar Kameez; the modern versions of which are influenced by the Punjabi variant.

We Kashmiris have the Phiran, which is made out of a different material and cut differently as well. It is still popular in Northern AJK and the Kashmir Valley.

The Sindhis historically had the Kancha Shalwar, similar to the Baloch variant.

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## Behram Khilji

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> That is the Punjabi variant and I'm not sure why it's so hard for you to accept that. Other ethnic groups historically have had different versions, most of which have become obsolete.
> 
> This is the Baloch Variant;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That Pashtuns have Khet Partug and Perahan Tunban types of Shalwar Kameez; the modern versions of which are influenced by the Punjabi variant.
> 
> We Kashmiris have the Phiran, which is made out of a different material and cut differently as well. It is still popular in Northern AJK and the Kashmir Valley.
> 
> The Sindhis historically had the Kancha Shalwar, similar to the Baloch variant.



These are very similar to Kurdish salwar, as I said Iranian origin dress.

Why are you guys ashamed of everything about yourselves, you are killing your language as you feel it's rude and teaching your children to converse in Urdu only.

Now you distance yourselves from your dress and claim salwar kameez to be yours.


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## POTTER

Behram Khilji said:


> Salwar kameez is an Iranian origin dress, nothing Punjabi about it, Punjabis wear a nappy or lungi or whatever they call it.
> 
> They can claim what they wish but reality is very different.
> 
> 
> 
> These people claim others as their heroes so let them claim the attire too, doesn't bother us, they will label you and me as Afghan if we speak the truth and mind but they embrace Indian films, culture and open corridors for their fellow Indian Punjabis and they are still patriotic while we are traitors, Namak harams, Afghans and so on.
> 
> Well I rather be a Namak haram Afghan anyday then betray the blood of our shaheeds and forefathers who created this land


We people claim your heroes only because they were Muslims. We equally love Ayyubi , Abdaali , Ghaznavi , Khilji , Zangid Muhamamd bin Qasim , Tariq etc. Punjab's dress is kurta and dhoti but PAKISTAN's dress is Shalwar Qameez.

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## Behram Khilji

Brass Knuckles said:


> Indians claim it's Punjabi dress and Punjab is a province of India
> Punjabi dress = Indian dress



So salwar kameez in an Indian dress, ok well at least we got that cleared up.


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## Pakistani Fighter

Behram Khilji said:


> So salwar kameez in an Indian dress, ok well at least we got that cleared up.


Shalwaar*


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## Behram Khilji

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Shalwaar*



Well depends how you will spell it, you spell Umar I spell it Omar same thing spelled differently.


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## Talwar e Pakistan

Pakhtoon yum said:


> Shelwar kameez only got popular in Punjab after 1947, otherwise they wore their lungi thing





Behram Khilji said:


> nothing Punjabi about it, Punjabis wear a nappy or lungi or whatever they call it.


Lungi is a type of Sarong, which have been popular among most historic (and current) farming communities around the world. The Shendyt in ancient Egypt, the Izaar of Yemen, the Kilt of the Gaelics and much more are all examples. This was definitely popular in Punjab among the farmers due to convenience but it was not a "general" attire as you are portraying it to be. 

18th century depictions, like most other regions of Pakistan illustrate a Shalwar Kameez-like attire. Historically, the Punjabis called this the "Suthan", which has much older roots.


























Pakhtoon yum said:


> Stop trying to down play other ethnicities


In no way am I trying to do that, my intention was to instead showcase the ongoing beautiful cultural exchange between our regions and ethnic groups.
From the Peshawari Chapal, Pakol, Sindhi Topi, and so much more.



Great Janjua said:


> Shalwar kameez came from Punjab the shalwar is called Suthan and kameez kurta and we have other types as well tamba kurta etc


Shalwar Kameez did not originate in Punjab, only the mainstream variant. 



Behram Khilji said:


> open corridors for their fellow Indian Punjabis and they are still patriotic while we are traitors, Namak harams, Afghans and so on.


There are multiple corridors on the Afghan-Pak border, from which people can freely travel given they have the proper documents.

The Kartarpur corridor is a part of PTI's initiative to promote religious tourism which would benefit our economy. Kartarpur is one of the most holiest sites in Sikhism, the corridor restricts their movement to Kartarpur only.

So, I am not sure what your issue is.


Brass Knuckles said:


> You are right shalwar qameez isn't punjabi dress
> Both men and women in Punjab used to wear chadar or lungi with qameez


Never did I claim that Shalwar Kameez is Punjabi, only the current mainstream variant.



Behram Khilji said:


> Why are you guys ashamed of everything about yourselves, you are killing your language as you feel it's rude and teaching your children to converse in Urdu only.


I am not even Punjabi, I do not understand why you are so insecure and confrontational. If I offended you in any way, then please, as a Muslim and a Pakistani brother, forgive me as that was not my intention.



Behram Khilji said:


> Now you distance yourselves from your dress and claim salwar kameez to be yours.


Punjabis do not have a "standard dress", nor do they claim the Shalwar Kameez to be theirs. I am only stating that the current/modern mainstream variant comes from Punjab.

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## Murgah

Sab aadam ki aulad ho baki Allah ko pata he kon kis kabile se he

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## Taimur Khurram

Behram Khilji said:


> Salwar kameez is an Iranian origin dress



Not really, it's always been used by various groups of people. 



Behram Khilji said:


> nothing Punjabi about it, Punjabis wear a nappy or lungi or whatever they call it.



There is literally a style of shalwar kameez known as the "Punjabi suit". Stop making up nonsense.

And if we're going to play that game, we can easily state that your pakol comes from Greeks who raped your ancestors. 



Behram Khilji said:


> These people claim others as their heroes



Oh please, those rulers are only liked for being Muslim.



Behram Khilji said:


> Why are you guys ashamed of everything about yourselves



When Indo-Aryans in Pakistan take pride in Indo-Aryan history, people like you moan. When Indo-Aryans in Pakistan take pride in Islamic history, people like you still moan. You can't have it both ways, either Ranjt Singh is going to be celebrated for his conquests over Pakhtunkhwa, or Allaudeen Khaliji is going to be celebrated for his inroads into the sub-continent. 



Behram Khilji said:


> you are killing your language



Urdu *is* our language, Muslims from the sub-continent have been using it as a lingua franca for centuries. And now your people are starting to speak it too. 




Behram Khilji said:


> teaching your children to converse in Urdu only.



What's more useful, Urdu, a national language, or Punjabi, a provincial language?

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## Pan-Islamic-Pakistan

Pakhtoon yum said:


> Punjabi version? That's the pakhtoon version. People of kpk and quetta have worn this type for a very long time. Shelwar kameez only got popular in Punjab after 1947, otherwise they wore their lungi thing. Stop trying to down play other ethnicities



Not true actually, Punjabis have been wearing different attire, other than kurta and dhoti, since time immemorial. That was just a common/cheap attire for poor farmers, especially those who came as refugees from Indian Punjab.



Behram Khilji said:


> Salwar kameez is an Iranian origin dress, nothing Punjabi about it, Punjabis wear a nappy or lungi or whatever they call it.
> 
> They can claim what they wish but reality is very different.
> 
> 
> 
> These people claim others as their heroes so let them claim the attire too, doesn't bother us, they will label you and me as Afghan if we speak the truth and mind but they embrace Indian films, culture and open corridors for their fellow Indian Punjabis and they are still patriotic while we are traitors, Namak harams, Afghans and so on.
> 
> Well I rather be a Namak haram Afghan anyday then betray the blood of our shaheeds and forefathers who created this land



You have severe inferiority complexes. I suggest you take care of it, and stop burdening us with your vitriol.

We are Pakistani, Muslim, and Punjabi, we don't need any certificate from you or anyone else to define our cultural identity.



Behram Khilji said:


> These are very similar to Kurdish salwar, as I said Iranian origin dress.
> 
> Why are you guys ashamed of everything about yourselves, you are killing your language as you feel it's rude and teaching your children to converse in Urdu only.
> 
> Now you distance yourselves from your dress and claim salwar kameez to be yours.



Punjabis are learning Turkish, Chinese, Pukhto, and other languages on a regular basis, in addition to Urdu, we don't feel anything wrong with adopting new things.

Actually this is the strength of Punjab, it can absorb many different people including Pukhtoons (Niyazis,) Hindkowan, Seraiki, Baloch, Sindhis, Kashmiris, and Muhajirs. We are Muslim first, before anything, and view ourselves as the great defenders of Islam.



Taimur Khurram said:


> And if we're going to play that game, we can easily state that your pakol comes from Greeks who raped your ancestors.



Janab, go easy please. This is too much.



Talwar e Pakistan said:


> Lungi is a type of Sarong, which have been popular among most historic (and current) farming communities around the world. The Shendyt in ancient Egypt, the Izaar of Yemen, the Kilt of the Gaelics and much more are all examples. This was definitely popular in Punjab among the farmers due to convenience but it was not a "general" attire as you are portraying it to be.
> 
> 18th century depictions, like most other regions of Pakistan illustrate a Shalwar Kameez-like attire. Historically, the Punjabis called this the "Suthan", which has much older roots.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 586200
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In no way am I trying to do that, my intention was to instead showcase the ongoing beautiful cultural exchange between our regions and ethnic groups.
> From the Peshawari Chapal, Pakol, Sindhi Topi, and so much more.
> 
> 
> Shalwar Kameez did not originate in Punjab, only the mainstream variant.
> 
> 
> There are multiple corridors on the Afghan-Pak border, from which people can freely travel given they have the proper documents.
> 
> The Kartarpur corridor is a part of PTI's initiative to promote religious tourism which would benefit our economy. Kartarpur is one of the most holiest sites in Sikhism, the corridor restricts their movement to Kartarpur only.
> 
> So, I am not sure what your issue is.
> 
> Never did I claim that Shalwar Kameez is Punjabi, only the current mainstream variant.
> 
> 
> I am not even Punjabi, I do not understand why you are so insecure and confrontational. If I offended you in any way, then please, as a Muslim and a Pakistani brother, forgive me as that was not my intention.
> 
> 
> Punjabis do not have a "standard dress", nor do they claim the Shalwar Kameez to be theirs. I am only stating that the current/modern mainstream variant comes from Punjab.



Great post brother, as always.

I have seen another outfit worn by Waris Shah. I don't know what it is called, but I have seen Afghan brothers wearing it in the masjid.






Some kind of a kurta with ties on the left side of the chest, leaving part of the chest showing.

Looks almost Turkic in origin.

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## Taimur Khurram

Pan-Islamic-Pakistan said:


> Janab, go easy please. This is too much.



This whole thread is too much. We are not Central Asians, we have always been considered part of South Asia as we are predominantly Indo-Aryan. Central Asians are overwhelmingly not Indo-Aryan.

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## Pan-Islamic-Pakistan

Taimur Khurram said:


> This whole thread is too much. We are not Central Asians, we have always been considered part of South Asia as we are predominantly Indo-Aryan. Central Asians are overwhelmingly not Indo-Aryan.



Disregarding Hindu sources which have major inaccuracies, fabrications, and are reaped in superstitution, can someone please answer the question: *What is an Aryan?
*
Aryan is a corruption of Iranic people who settled most of Pakistan in waves starting from the times of IVC until now. The Hindus embellished it, invented a religion around it through mixing of different ideologies, and corrupted the original meaning.

Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Tajiks, and Kurds are all descendants of Iranic nomadic groups who migrated out of the Altai mountain region over thousands of years. To an extent, Turks/Turkic people are also intermingled with Iranics (for example Kazakhs.) In fact, even Russians and Eastern Europeans share some Iranic DNA from Scythians.

Turks, Mongols, Huns, and Iranics all emerge from and descend from the same region, and followed the same migration routes into the Middle East and Pakistan.

There are certainly are many of us who view themselves as Central Asian origin, and that notion is based on our genetics and history.

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## Pakhtoon yum

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> Lungi is a type of Sarong, which have been popular among most historic (and current) farming communities around the world. The Shendyt in ancient Egypt, the Izaar of Yemen, the Kilt of the Gaelics and much more are all examples. This was definitely popular in Punjab among the farmers due to convenience but it was not a "general" attire as you are portraying it to be.
> 
> 18th century depictions, like most other regions of Pakistan illustrate a Shalwar Kameez-like attire. Historically, the Punjabis called this the "Suthan", which has much older roots.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 586200
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In no way am I trying to do that, my intention was to instead showcase the ongoing beautiful cultural exchange between our regions and ethnic groups.
> From the Peshawari Chapal, Pakol, Sindhi Topi, and so much more.
> 
> 
> Shalwar Kameez did not originate in Punjab, only the mainstream variant.
> 
> 
> There are multiple corridors on the Afghan-Pak border, from which people can freely travel given they have the proper documents.
> 
> The Kartarpur corridor is a part of PTI's initiative to promote religious tourism which would benefit our economy. Kartarpur is one of the most holiest sites in Sikhism, the corridor restricts their movement to Kartarpur only.
> 
> So, I am not sure what your issue is.
> 
> Never did I claim that Shalwar Kameez is Punjabi, only the current mainstream variant.
> 
> 
> I am not even Punjabi, I do not understand why you are so insecure and confrontational. If I offended you in any way, then please, as a Muslim and a Pakistani brother, forgive me as that was not my intention.
> 
> 
> Punjabis do not have a "standard dress", nor do they claim the Shalwar Kameez to be theirs. I am only stating that the current/modern mainstream variant comes from Punjab.







It looks more kurd then anything else.



Taimur Khurram said:


> Not really, it's always been used by various groups of people.
> 
> 
> 
> There is literally a style of shalwar kameez known as the "Punjabi suit". Stop making up nonsense.
> 
> And if we're going to play that game, we can easily state that your pakol comes from Greeks who raped your ancestors.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh please, those rulers are only liked for being Muslim.
> 
> 
> 
> When Indo-Aryans in Pakistan take pride in Indo-Aryan history, people like you moan. When Indo-Aryans in Pakistan take pride in Islamic history, people like you still moan. You can't have it both ways, either Ranjt Singh is going to be celebrated for his conquests over Pakhtunkhwa, or Allaudeen Khaliji is going to be celebrated for his inroads into the sub-continent.
> 
> 
> 
> Urdu *is* our language, Muslims from the sub-continent have been using it as a lingua franca for centuries. And now your people are starting to speak it too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What's more useful, Urdu, a national language, or Punjabi, a provincial language?


Clearly this shows how ignorant you are. Have you ever heard of whole greek cities being shifted to north western Pakistan and afganistan? You are a Bollywood wannabe that loves to be apart of the swamp dwellers, even tho your not. If you want to bring in conquest then Punjab was also conquered by Pakhtoons and was also colonized. Thus then inheriting alot of Pakhtoon traditions. I wont you the same vulgar vocabulary that you learn from bollywood films, but it was a double edged sword. So you cant go around making fun of us for getting potentially cut. When you yourself got slit too. Go pick of a history book.



Talwar e Pakistan said:


> That is the Punjabi variant and I'm not sure why it's so hard for you to accept that. Other ethnic groups historically have had different versions, most of which have become obsolete.
> 
> This is the Baloch Variant;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That Pashtuns have Khet Partug and Perahan Tunban types of Shalwar Kameez; the modern versions of which are influenced by the Punjabi variant.
> 
> We Kashmiris have the Phiran, which is made out of a different material and cut differently as well. It is still popular in Northern AJK and the Kashmir Valley.
> 
> The Sindhis historically had the Kancha Shalwar, similar to the Baloch variant.


Are you insane? Go look at pictures form the 30s or 40s even. Your kin is wearing lugis. Where as out kin has been wearing this type for a long time. You acting the same as the Sikhs do when they talk abt shalwaar, even tho Punjab has been raided conquered by Pakhtoons for longer. Just because you adapted it doesn't mean you invested it.



Great Janjua said:


> Shalwar kameez came from Punjab the shalwar is called Suthan and kameez kurta and we have other types as well tamba kurta etc


Oh ya, I bet the chirali hat, chadar and all those other things we wear also came from Punjab. What lunacy is this 



Talwar e Pakistan said:


> That is the Punjabi variant and I'm not sure why it's so hard for you to accept that. Other ethnic groups historically have had different versions, most of which have become obsolete.
> 
> This is the Baloch Variant;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That Pashtuns have Khet Partug and Perahan Tunban types of Shalwar Kameez; the modern versions of which are influenced by the Punjabi variant.
> 
> We Kashmiris have the Phiran, which is made out of a different material and cut differently as well. It is still popular in Northern AJK and the Kashmir Valley.
> 
> The Sindhis historically had the Kancha Shalwar, similar to the Baloch variant.


Did I say anything about balochi variant? I said Pakhtoon. That is not your dress it was adopted after the culture in pakistan became mixed.



Brass Knuckles said:


> You are right shalwar qameez isn't punjabi dress
> Both men and women in Punjab used to wear chadar or lungi with qameez
> 
> No one in Punjab claims Shalwar qameez originated from Punjab
> Indians claim it's Punjabi dress not Pakistani Punjabis


Are you sure cause the people here are saying otherwise. I'm absolutely in aww at all of this.


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## Great Janjua

Pakhtoon yum said:


> View attachment 586226
> 
> It looks more kurd then anything else.
> 
> 
> Clearly this shows how ignorant you are. Have you ever heard of whole greek cities being shifted to north western Pakistan and afganistan? You are a Bollywood wannabe that loves to be apart of the swamp dwellers, even tho your not. If you want to bring in conquest then Punjab was also conquered by Pakhtoons and was also colonized. Thus then inheriting alot of Pakhtoon traditions. I wont you the same vulgar vocabulary that you learn from bollywood films, but it was a double edged sword. So you cant go around making fun of us for getting potentially cut. When you yourself got slit too. Go pick of a history book.
> 
> 
> Are you insane? Go look at pictures form the 30s or 40s even. Your kin is wearing lugis. Where as out kin has been wearing this type for a long time. You acting the same as the Sikhs do when they talk abt shalwaar, even tho Punjab has been raided conquered by Pakhtoons for longer. Just because you adapted it doesn't mean you invested it.
> 
> 
> Oh ya, I bet the chirali hat, chadar and all those other things we wear also came from Punjab. What lunacy is this
> 
> 
> Did I say anything about balochi variant? I said Pakhtoon. That is not your dress it was adopted after the culture in pakistan became mixed.
> 
> 
> Are you sure cause the people here are saying otherwise. I'm absolutely in aww at all of this.


A variant off the shalwar kameez had been in use in punjab since centuries I dont know how hard that is to get through your hollow head.Taking the piss off our culture is not nice if let my words roll out your little *** wont be on this forum Pashtun boy. Keep browsing


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## Pakhtoon yum

Great Janjua said:


> A variant off the shalwar kameez had been in use in punjab since centuries I dont know how hard that is to get through your hollow head.Taking the piss off our culture is not nice if let my words roll out your little *** wont be on this forum Pashtun boy. Keep browsing


Hmm, personal attacks how nice. Do roll those words out why are you scared? 

And no, no Punjab didnt. Punjabis adopted alot of Pakhtoon culture, that doesn't make it punjabi.


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## Great Janjua

Pakhtoon yum said:


> Hmm, personal attacks how nice. Do roll those words out why are you scared?
> 
> And no, no Punjab didnt. Punjabis adopted alot of Pakhtoon culture, that doesn't make it punjabi.


 what do you mean NO (are you 2 years old) just because you think its not punjabi its not gonna change the fact.Plus us punjabis have been the same since the birth off our language.And we do not have any Pashtun traditions just to let you know also am not scared off smacked heads like you.And please dont tell me half off what pashtun women wear nowadays the female shalwar kameez is also pashtun


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## War Thunder

GHALIB said:


> so indus valley civilization has now become central asian ?




They are there, but they have never been the majority.
Majority are those who came from central Asia and established the first Indo-Scythian empire and later dynasties. Remember, areas under Pakistan hardly ever were part of your bharat even though Gandhara civilization started in Pakistan.

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## Taimur Khurram

Pakhtoon yum said:


> Have you ever heard of whole greek cities being shifted to north western Pakistan and afganistan?



I have, but that doesn't mean rape didn't happen. Wherever there are conquests, there is rape.

But I mostly did it to get a rise out of him, I have no qualms with Pakistanis claiming the Yavanas since they were culturally Indo-Aryan, and ancestrally just another set of Indo-Europeans.



Pakhtoon yum said:


> You are a Bollywood wannabe that loves to be apart of the swamp dwellers



Just because I don't LARP as a Central Asian doesn't mean I love India.



Pakhtoon yum said:


> If you want to bring in conquest then Punjab was also conquered by Pakhtoons and was also colonized.



And so was Pakhtunkhwa. Pakistan has most of the world's Pashtun population because Punjabis under Ranjit Singh conquered most of you. Even now, KPK is filled with Hindkowans, a sub-group of Punjabis.

Humble yourself.



Pan-Islamic-Pakistan said:


> What is an Aryan?



An Indo-Iranian (i.e Indo Aryans and Iranics).



Pan-Islamic-Pakistan said:


> Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Tajiks, and Kurds are all descendants of Iranic nomadic groups who migrated out of the Altai mountain region over thousands of years.



The original Indo-Aryans were not Iranic, they just shared a common ancestor with them. And they didn't come from Altai.


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## Pakhtoon yum

Taimur Khurram said:


> I have, but that doesn't mean rape didn't happen. Wherever there are conquests, there is rape.
> 
> But I mostly did it to get a rise out of him, I have no qualms with Pakistanis claiming the Yavanas since they were culturally Indo-Aryan, and ancestrally just another set of Indo-Europeans.
> 
> 
> 
> Just because I don't LARP as a Central Asian doesn't mean I love India.
> 
> 
> 
> And so was Pakhtunkhwa. Pakistan has most of the world's Pashtun population because Punjabis under Ranjit Singh conquered most of you. Even now, KPK is filled with Hindkowans, a sub-group of Punjabis.
> 
> Humble yourself.
> 
> 
> 
> An Indo-Iranian (i.e Indo Aryans and Iranics).
> 
> 
> 
> The original Indo-Aryans were not Iranic, they just shared a common ancestor with them. And they didn't come from Altai.


You do realize KPK is conquered territory. So ofcourse wars were going to happen.



Great Janjua said:


> what do you mean NO (are you 2 years old) just because you think its not punjabi its not gonna change the fact.Plus us punjabis have been the same since the birth off our language.And we do not have any Pashtun traditions just to let you know also am not scared off smacked heads like you.And please dont tell me half off what pashtun women wear nowadays the female shalwar kameez is also pashtun


Your funny. Punjabi culture is filled with pakhtoon influences form the days Punjab was conquered by us. Even your language just like urdu has words from Pakhto. So no, it isnt yours and you have no ground to say it is.


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## Great Janjua

Pakhtoon yum said:


> You do realize KPK is conquered territory. So ofcourse wars were going to happen.
> 
> 
> Your funny. Punjabi culture is filled with pakhtoon influences form the days Punjab was conquered by us. Even your language just like urdu has words from Pakhto. So no, it isnt yours and you have no ground to say it is.


 shut u


Pakhtoon yum said:


> You do realize KPK is conquered territory. So ofcourse wars were going to happen.
> 
> 
> Your funny. Punjabi culture is filled with pakhtoon influences form the days Punjab was conquered by us. Even your language just like urdu has words from Pakhto. So no, it isnt yours and you have no ground to say it is.


 like or such as give examples did your pashtun teacher not teach you provide evidence for your claims


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## Pan-Islamic-Pakistan

Taimur Khurram said:


> The original Indo-Aryans were not Iranic, they just shared a common ancestor with them. And they didn't come from Altai.



Hephthalites, Scythians, Kushans were.

Those migrations are the bulk of the agricultural community of Punjab, for example Jats, Rajputs, Bajwas, etc.

Added into the caste system, but were not originally part of it. This is why we see Central Asian DNA in these groups.



Pakhtoon yum said:


> Your funny. Punjabi culture is filled with pakhtoon influences form the days Punjab was conquered by us. Even your language just like urdu has words from Pakhto. So no, it isnt yours and you have no ground to say it is.



Many of us also intermarry with Pukhtoons and have Pukhtoon ancestry, so we are proud of who we are.

Punjab is one of the most lovely and beautiful cultures of the world. We love life and celebrate it. We accept anyone, even Muhajir or Kashmiris, who came to Punjab become part of our culture.

All of us have been influencing each other for thousands of years.

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## Pakhtoon yum

Pan-Islamic-Pakistan said:


> Hephthalites, Scythians, Kushans were.
> 
> Those migrations are the bulk of the agricultural community of Punjab, for example Jats, Rajputs, Bajwas, etc.
> 
> Added into the caste system, but were not originally part of it. This is why we see Central Asian DNA in these groups.
> 
> 
> 
> Many of us also intermarry with Pukhtoons and have Pukhtoon ancestry, so we are proud of who we are.
> 
> Punjab is one of the most lovely and beautiful cultures of the world. We love life and celebrate it. We accept anyone, even Muhajir or Kashmiris, who came to Punjab become part of our culture.
> 
> All of us have been influencing each other for thousands of years.


I love them too, I didnt say I that I didnt like them. It's just that when some people claim or make ridiculous correlations, then I grinds my gears.



Great Janjua said:


> shut u
> like or such as give examples did your pashtun teacher not teach you provide evidence for your claims


Pakhto has alot of influence on urdu so what makes you think punjabi is any different? Pakhto is modren Avestan/Bactrian greek. It was a very influential on modern say Pakistan, when it was under the control of Bactria. Then came the expantions to the east of the indus river, thus modern punjab and NW india coming under thr influence. That's why urdu has so many loan words and so does Punjabi. 

Coming back to "my Pashtun teachers" then I regret to inform you that I attended a private school with a mix batch of teachers from all across the country.



Great Janjua said:


> shut u
> like or such as give examples did your pashtun teacher not teach you provide evidence for your claims


Although its clear to see that no one taught you how to convey yourself in a argument or speech. Says alot about your "punjabi teachers"


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## Taimur Khurram

Pan-Islamic-Pakistan said:


> Hephthalites, Scythians, Kushans were.



They didn't come from the Altaic mountains. 



Pan-Islamic-Pakistan said:


> Those migrations are the bulk of the agricultural community of Punjab



Do we have some of their genes? Yes, but we don't cluster with them.


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## Zibago

Taimur Khurram said:


> I have, but that doesn't mean rape didn't happen. Wherever there are conquests, there is rape.
> 
> But I mostly did it to get a rise out of him, I have no qualms with Pakistanis claiming the Yavanas since they were culturally Indo-Aryan, and ancestrally just another set of Indo-Europeans.
> 
> 
> 
> Just because I don't LARP as a Central Asian doesn't mean I love India.
> 
> 
> 
> And so was Pakhtunkhwa. Pakistan has most of the world's Pashtun population because Punjabis under Ranjit Singh conquered most of you. Even now, KPK is filled with Hindkowans, a sub-group of Punjabis.
> 
> Humble yourself.
> 
> 
> 
> An Indo-Iranian (i.e Indo Aryans and Iranics).
> 
> 
> 
> The original Indo-Aryans were not Iranic, they just shared a common ancestor with them. And they didn't come from Altai.


Hindkowans you say
Do google ancestory of Jadoons,Tanolis and Abbasis which are the dominant tribes in that region


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## Taimur Khurram

Zibago said:


> Hindkowans you say
> Do google ancestory of Jadoons,Tanolis and Abbasis which are the dominant tribes in that region



Hindko is a sub-language of Punjabi.

As for the lineages those groups claim, I'm very sceptical.

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## Pan-Islamic-Pakistan

Taimur Khurram said:


> They didn't come from the Altaic mountains.














Sai/Saka, Yuezhi/Kushans, White Huns/Hunas/Hepthalites, Xiongnu (Mongols) did.

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## Zibago

Taimur Khurram said:


> Hindko is a sub-language of Punjabi.
> 
> As for the lineages those groups claim, I'm very sceptical.


Are you also sceptical of the lineage of Niazi and Qizalbash of Punjab? 
Same story more of less
As for the origin of the language well that is a separate ball game


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## Taimur Khurram

Zibago said:


> Are you also sceptical of the lineage of Niazi and Qizalbash of Punjab?



No because their claims aren't quite as outlandish.


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## Zibago

Brass Knuckles said:


> Is hindko similar to saraiki?
> Do they use words like Thi Gaya ghin aa etc


Not really both wouldnt understand each other like at all

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## Pan-Islamic-Pakistan

Taimur Khurram said:


> Hindko is a sub-language of Punjabi.



Hindko is a mix of Punjabi and Pukhto, but Hindkowan (Hazara region-not Afghan ones) are ethnic Pukhtoons and have Pukhtoon origin.

I know because many of my relatives are Hindko speakers

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## Talwar e Pakistan

Pakhtoon yum said:


> I love them too, I didnt say I that I didnt like them. It's just that when some people claim or make ridiculous correlations, then I grinds my gears.
> 
> 
> Pakhto has alot of influence on urdu so what makes you think punjabi is any different? Pakhto is modren Avestan/Bactrian greek. It was a very influential on modern say Pakistan, when it was under the control of Bactria. Then came the expantions to the east of the indus river, thus modern punjab and NW india coming under thr influence. That's why urdu has so many loan words and so does Punjabi.
> 
> Coming back to "my Pashtun teachers" then I regret to inform you that I attended a private school with a mix batch of teachers from all across the country.
> 
> 
> Although its clear to see that no one taught you how to convey yourself in a argument or speech. Says alot about your "punjabi teachers"


Hello friend, though I disagree with some of your statements and consider them historically inaccurate, I believe it is best not to continue this "discussion" as it has turned into a divisive argument , which was not of my intention. If I offended you, please forgive me. At the end of the day, all that matters is we are both Muslim and Pakistani brothers.

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## Pakhtoon yum

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> Hello friend, though I disagree with some of your statements and consider them historically inaccurate, I believe it is best not to continue this "discussion" as it has turned into a divisive argument , which was not of my intention. If I offended you, please forgive me. At the end of the day, all that matters is we are both Muslim and Pakistani brothers.


Not offended at all. Just discussing and sorry if I lost my cool. I'm going through some stressful times and I'm afraid I might have took it out on you. Sorry.

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## Progressive1

we are pakistanis , i dont care we are in africa, east asia or central asia.

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## Taimur Khurram

Pan-Islamic-Pakistan said:


> but Hindkowan (Hazara region-not Afghan ones) are ethnic Pukhtoons



Most of them are not lol.


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## W.11

Pakhtoon yum said:


> Punjabi version? That's the pakhtoon version. People of kpk and quetta have worn this type for a very long time. *Shelwar kameez only got popular in Punjab after 1947*, otherwise they wore their lungi thing. Stop trying to down play other ethnicities



Im not gonna argue whether pashtuns wore shalwar kameez or Punjabis, but here are some evidences that Kurta(slit shirt like kameez) and baggy trousers like shalwar were in fashion in india or atleast north west india since 11th century

Al Biruni states;







So according to alberuni, shalwar kameez were in fashion in india.

there are also artistic depictions of kurtas and shalwars for instance






this figure is from gupta period, india, and one can clearly observe slits on both sides of the tunic the female is wearing.

secondly, the baggy trousers are depicted in an art piece from 8-10th centuries AD






https://www.nyu.edu/gsas/dept/fineart/people/faculty/flood_PDFs/Conflict and Cosmopolitanism.pdf










it is clearly mentioned that the indian figures are wearing baggy trousers along with kurta.

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## W.11

SingHee said:


> In line with scientific research findings, people of Pakistan origin are now listed as Central Asian in one of the largest and most reputed commercially available ancestry DNA testing databases.
> 
> AncestryDNA now lists all ethnic Pakistanis in the Central Asia - South category, as this is now the accepted norm in scientific research papers. Following the same norms, Afghanistan and Tajikistan are also included in the same category. I had earlier also reported the scientific research findings and papers concerning Pakistan, but seeing it now included in a major commercial ancestry genetic test is quite interesting.
> 
> The personal DNA testing company adds the following specific details for the region:
> 
> 
> *
> Images depicting the geographic region*
> 
> View attachment 585910
> View attachment 585911
> View attachment 586040



an ameteur can observe this map and declare it as complete BS. just check our the part where indonesian papua island part of new guinea is merged together with the colonial type demarcation of a straight line, this is not a natural demarcation of two diff ethnicities but represents the colonial politics.

secondly if you look closely the iranian balochistan is separated in the map from pakistan balochistan, again which is entirely not possible, the egyptian genetic map is also drawn just like a political boundary and national borders of egypt which is just colonialism.

linguistics and genetics are the two last frontiers of colonial imperialism ad are largely moulded in favour of western european narrative.

regards

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## Pakhtoon yum

W.11 said:


> Im not gonna argue whether pashtuns wore shalwar kameez or Punjabis, but here are some evidences that Kurta(slit shirt like kameez) and baggy trousers like shalwar were in fashion in india or atleast north west india since 11th century
> 
> Al Biruni states;
> 
> View attachment 586811
> 
> 
> So according to alberuni, shalwar kameez were in fashion in india.
> 
> there are also artistic depictions of kurtas and shalwars for instance
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> this figure is from gupta period, india, and one can clearly observe slits on both sides of the tunic the female is wearing.
> 
> secondly, the baggy trousers are depicted in an art piece from 8-10th centuries AD
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.nyu.edu/gsas/dept/fineart/people/faculty/flood_PDFs/Conflict and Cosmopolitanism.pdf
> 
> View attachment 586813
> 
> View attachment 586814
> 
> 
> it is clearly mentioned that the indian figures are wearing baggy trousers along with kurta.


Your point being? Also wtf is india? There was no India then

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## W.11

Pakhtoon yum said:


> Your point being?



my point is, you cannot argue that shalwar kameez was a pashtun dress based on these facts and that the people of punjab only used to wear lungi before 1947.

regards

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## Talwar e Pakistan

W.11 said:


> Im not gonna argue whether pashtuns wore shalwar kameez or Punjabis, but here are some evidences that Kurta(slit shirt like kameez) and baggy trousers like shalwar were in fashion in india or atleast north west india since 11th century
> 
> Al Biruni states;
> 
> View attachment 586811
> 
> 
> So according to alberuni, shalwar kameez were in fashion in india.
> 
> there are also artistic depictions of kurtas and shalwars for instance
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> this figure is from gupta period, india, and one can clearly observe slits on both sides of the tunic the female is wearing.
> 
> secondly, the baggy trousers are depicted in an art piece from 8-10th centuries AD
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.nyu.edu/gsas/dept/fineart/people/faculty/flood_PDFs/Conflict and Cosmopolitanism.pdf
> 
> View attachment 586813
> 
> View attachment 586814
> 
> 
> it is clearly mentioned that the indian figures are wearing baggy trousers along with kurta.


That Gupta depiction is rare, hence it was most likely an illustration of a foreign woman, likely a Kushan.

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## Pakhtoon yum

W.11 said:


> my point is, you cannot argue that shalwar kameez was a pashtun dress based on these facts and that the people of punjab only used to wear lungi before 1947.
> 
> regards


Majority they did yes.

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## W.11

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> That Gupta depiction is rare, hence it was most likely an illustration of a foreign woman, likely a Kushan.



so where is a kushan dress illustration which elaborates on two slits on the dress?

regards


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## Indus Pakistan

W.11 said:


> in india or atleast north west india since 11th century


Is this Haryana/Indian Sikh Punjab etc your talking about? Look below at the box and clarify kindly.

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## W.11

Indus Pakistan said:


> Is this Haryana/Indian Sikh Punjab etc your talking about? Look below at the box and clarify kindly.



sindh and probably punjab as well etc according to elephant artifact, im not sure about al biruni's geography, which region he is refering to.

regards


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## Indus Pakistan

W.11 said:


> *sindh* and probably *punjab *as well etc according to elephant artifact, im not sure about al biruni's geography, which region he is refering to.
> 
> regards


You mean South/East Pakistan. Look below. Not fcukin India.

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## Dubious

Gandhi G in da house said:


> There are recent studies too which say the same thing. I just posted what I could easily find online. Besides this source, I posted another source. Further, just because they are old doesn't mean they are not true. Even Talwar E Pakistani accepts that this is the most popular theory even at present if not the most widely accepted.


Actually coz they are old, they are doubtful! Science has been advancing and A LOT of studies have been "replaced" / "revisited" and a lot of areas have been reclassified/ repackaged!


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## W.11

Dubious said:


> Actually coz they are old, they are doubtful! Science has been advancing and A LOT of studies have been "replaced" / "revisited" and a lot of areas have been reclassified/ repackaged!



so what is the latest reclassification of IVC?



Gandhi G in da house said:


> https://www.jstor.org/stable/41927733?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents
> 
> Clyde Ahmad has published as well.
> 
> The Dravidian theory is the most widely accepted theory about the IVC now. There are many more sources on the internet about this besides what I posted.



to be honest, ''dravidian theory'' isnt much of a theory either, there is zero material evidence for ''dravidian culture'', most we know is the megalithic one from dravidian south india which cannot in any way be linked to indus valley civilization.

regards


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## SingHee

Historic language formation in the region.



> The third Achaemenid emperor, Darius the Great, likewise deployed the Immortals in his conquests of Sindh and parts of the Punjab (now in Pakistan). This expansion gave the Persians access to the rich trading routes through India, as well as the gold and other wealth of that land. At that time, the Iranian and Indian languages were probably still similar enough to be mutually intelligible, and the Persians took advantage of this to employ Indian troops in their fights against the Greeks.



Szczepanski, Kallie. "The Persian Immortals." ThoughtCo, Aug. 22, 2019, thoughtco.com/the-persian-immortals-195537.

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/thoughtco/

Furthermore, according to the following source, similar languages in close-by regions that had naturally diversified away from mutually intelligible Steppe languages were then gradually replaced by Persian in the general populace after it was officiated by ruling governments.



> Talking about “mutual intelligibility,” there is an interesting case which implies that Iranian languages were probably regarded as not so different from Indian languages. An Iranian form of the verb śavati ‘he goes’ is quoted in the Nirukta about 300 BC by its author Yāska, an Indian grammarian.
> 
> śavatir gati-karmā kambojeṣv eva bhāṣyate ‘the word śavati as a verb of motion is spoken only among the Kambojas.’ (Bailey 1971: 64)
> 
> The name Kamboja seems to refer to a place somewhere on the Iranian side of the border area between India and Iran, which is known as Afghanistan today. The form śavati cited in the Nirukta is an old form of šawad ‘he goes’, a word used in Modern Persian. Although it is not possible to pronounce on the mutual intelligibility between the Iranian and Indian languages spoken in this area based only on this fact, the wording gives an impression that this Indian grammarian recognized that Old Indian and Old Iranian were not completely different.
> 
> In the 7th century, about eight hundred years after Zhang Qian’s visit to Iranian speaking areas, a Chinese pilgrim Xuanzang (三藏法師玄奘) visited India via Sogdiana. He states:
> 
> ... the land is called Su-li (= Sogdiana), and the people are called by the same name. The literature (written characters) and the spoken language are likewise so called. (Beal 1906: 26)
> 
> A hundred years after Xuanzang’s visit, Hyecho (慧超), a Buddhist monk from Silla in the Korean Peninsula, traveled through Central Asia. Regarding the languages spoken in the area, he comments that “The [Sogdian] languages are different from those of other countries” (Yang et al. 1984: 54). This could be interpreted as, by then, mutual intelligibility between the languages had been completely lost.
> 
> Three hundred years later, there is another report about languages in Sogdiana after Islamization by Al-Muqaddasi. According to his report, the languages had been replaced by Persian. He says that in Bukhara, an oasis city on the Silk Road located in the west of Samarkand, the language spoken there was also Persian. However, in its outskirts, it was not Persian that was spoken but something similar to the one spoken in al-Sughd, the area located between Samarkand and Bukhara. Al-Muqaddasi’s report in the 10th century states:
> 
> The language of al-Sughd is unique to it and is approximated by the languages of the rural districts of Bukhārā, which are quite varied, but understood among them. (Collins 1994: 273)
> Based on this, in the 10th century, more and more Persian was used in city areas while in the countryside, varieties of Sogdian were still spoken.



Yoshida, Y., 2018. 8. The Family Tree Model and “Dead Dialects”: Eastern Middle Iranian Languages. _Senri Ethnological Studies_, _98_, pp.123-152

The above provides some insight into the diversification and formation of similar languages in the region, and how these could change within the general populace over time following the official implementation of potentially separate but still relatively similar languages.

Finally, the following language manual created by the British in 1916 shows that the basis of Punjabi is believed to be distinct from that of Hindi/Urdu, and that a language from the east had at some point spread west and encompassed the old language of the Punjab region (assumed to be Lahnda), and this effect only neutralises as you move to the furthest western regions of Punjab.

Note that at that time Punjabi was officially classified as falling in the same group as central Indian languages, but this has since been changed to north-western in the case of the Punjabi spoken in modern day India.












Linguistic survey of India / [compiled and edited] by George Abraham Grierson.
Calcutta : Office of the Superintendent of Government Printing, India, 1903-1928

As far as Punjabi is concerned, I assume the integration of eastern lands and populations after the Delhi takeover in the late twelfth and thirteenth centuries likely had a sizeable and potentially direct impact. Furthermore, given the still evident similarity to more western languages, the current form Punjabi language may in fact not have formed at all.

Instead, the indigenous language (Lahnda?) could potentially have taken a turn entirely towards the official language, as with Sogdiana (Tajikistan).


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## Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8

Brass Knuckles said:


> Don't know whether IVC is South Asian or central Asian but one thing is for sure it's not Indian





The IVC sites that are in India are Indian like Lothal,Dholavira,Kalibangan...The IVC sites in Pakistan are Pakistanis...there is no relation between the IVC sites of India and that of Pakistan...they were built by two completely different sets of people


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## W.11

Juggernaut_is_here said:


> The IVC sites that are in India are Indian like Lothal,Dholavira,Kalibangan...The IVC sites in Pakistan are Pakistanis...there is no relation between the IVC sites of India and that of Pakistan...they were built by two completely different sets of people



two ultra nationalist group of people not making any sense. If the sites are declared IVC how they are not related?

regards


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## Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8

W.11 said:


> two ultra nationalist group of people not making any sense. If the sites are declared IVC how they are not related?
> 
> regards




It's a reaction to exclusive Pakistani claim of IVC....expect this to be the norm in India,If Indus nationalism becomes shriller in Pakistan...Now that Indians can trace their heritage back to the Rakhigarhi skeleton DNA findings


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## OldenWisdom...قول بزرگ

Juggernaut_is_here said:


> It's a reaction to exclusive Pakistani claim of IVC....expect this to be the norm in India,If Indus nationalism becomes shriller in Pakistan...Now that Indians can trace their heritage back to the Rakhigarhi skeleton DNA findings


I think the claim is based on the location of "Indus Valley" and the river, perhaps? Rakhigarhi actually debunks a nativist claim of hinduism... DNA samples showed no R1a in the mix. That claim(hiduism as native) and R1a originating from India have no bearing on IVC. And since dravidians have been and continue to be part of current inhabitants of IVC i.e. Pakistan, what, if any value does your or Indian claim hold?


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## Indos

SingHee said:


> In line with scientific research findings, people of Pakistan origin are now listed as Central Asian in one of the largest and most reputed commercially available ancestry DNA testing databases.
> 
> AncestryDNA now lists all ethnic Pakistanis in the Central Asia - South category, as this is now the accepted norm in scientific research papers. Following the same norms, Afghanistan and Tajikistan are also included in the same category. I had earlier also reported the scientific research findings and papers concerning Pakistan, but seeing it now included in a major commercial ancestry genetic test is quite interesting.
> 
> The personal DNA testing company adds the following specific details for the region:
> 
> 
> *
> Images depicting the geographic region*
> 
> View attachment 585910
> View attachment 585911
> View attachment 586040



The map seems not right since it differentiate between Indonesian with Philippine. Indonesian, Malaysian, Bruinei, Philippine should be under one color since they are all Malay race.


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## W.11

OldenWisdom...قول بزرگ said:


> I think the claim is based on the location of "Indus Valley" and the river, perhaps? Rakhigarhi actually debunks a nativist claim of hinduism... DNA samples showed no R1a in the mix. That claim(hiduism as native) and R1a originating from India have no bearing on IVC. And since dravidians have been and continue to be part of current inhabitants of IVC i.e. Pakistan, what, if any value does your or Indian claim hold?



how does the DNA tell the religion, language etc of the people. The argument of R1a itself is contested, if the population was dravidian based on DNA, which part indicates dravidian dna? since we have not been able to find iranian neolithic or J haplogroup nor the R1a, so how can we now say that the IVC was even dravidian?

regards

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## OldenWisdom...قول بزرگ

W.11 said:


> how does the DNA tell the religion, language etc of the people. The argument of R1a itself is contested, if the population was dravidian based on DNA, which part indicates dravidian dna? since we have not been able to find iranian neolithic or J haplogroup nor the R1a, so how can we now say that the IVC was even dravidian?
> 
> regards


Here are a couple of sources. One Indian perhaps:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.in...-indus-valley-civilisation-1327247-2018-08-31

And 

https://indo-european.eu/tag/rakhigarhi/


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## W.11

OldenWisdom...قول بزرگ said:


> Here are a couple of sources. One Indian perhaps:
> 
> https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.in...-indus-valley-civilisation-1327247-2018-08-31
> 
> And
> 
> https://indo-european.eu/tag/rakhigarhi/



mate i have already read all of this just clarify me how do you reach the conclusion of dravidian population of IVC?

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## farhan_9909

Juggernaut_is_here said:


> The IVC sites that are in India are Indian like Lothal,Dholavira,Kalibangan...The IVC sites in Pakistan are Pakistanis...there is no relation between the IVC sites of India and that of Pakistan...they were built by two completely different sets of people



anything that fall under ancient IVC map by default belong to Pakistan including the land,people,culture and history.

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## pak-marine

constant invasion by so many outsiders In this region have created so much confusion that pakistanis are now moving “from al bakistanis to now to ruskis of the central asia” probably this is evolution, modern dna cannot go beyond finding traces of present mankind originating from a women in afrika

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## Pakhtoon yum

pak-marine said:


> constant invasion by so many outsiders In this region have created so much confusion that pakistanis are now moving “from al bakistanis to now to ruskis of the central asia” probably this is evolution, modern dna cannot go beyond finding traces of present mankind originating from a women in afrika


Not moving anywhere. Stop your nonsense. This is just facts. Some of use are arab by heritage, some central asian, some greek, some African and so on. Pakistan is a melting pot of all that had been encountered. Anyone one that says we are confused is helping them deal with their own insecurities. Like the Indians, and their insecurities.

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## POTTER

Pakhtoon yum said:


> Not moving anywhere. Stop your nonsense. This is just facts. Some of use are arab by heritage, some central asian, some greek, some African and so on. Pakistan is a melting pot of all that had been encountered. Anyone one that says we are confused is helping them deal with their own insecurities. Like the Indians, and their insecurities.


Even mongols and greek were here.

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## Pakhtoon yum

POTTER said:


> Even mongols and greek were here.


I included greeks, forgot mongols. Basically pakistan is a bigger melting pot then the US.

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