# Are we the custodians of the Muslim Ummah?



## lionheartsalahudin

kia hum muslim ummah key thekidar hain



a great debate was really impressed with wajahat the former host of "we are soldiers" anyways the molvi's did'nt had any logic's to give

anyways i am for pakistan and pakistan only,we should look at malaysia and turkey ,not saudi's and emirateis both the later have oil and are too arrogant bcuz of it being developed from oil money is not really development these arabs did'nt move their a**es to make their country develop,but turkey and malaysia have really developed without such a valuable resource to back them up ,so i would prefer pakistan to be turkey or malaysia rather then saudi arabia or uae.

pakistan zindabad


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUyC23XURWQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkiEVXr3iDM

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## Desert Fox

To hell with the "ummah", Pakistan Zindabad! Palestine is not our problem, neither is Israel, we share no border or ethnicity with these countries so why should we share the headache of the arabs?

---------- Post added at 03:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:36 AM ----------

What is the name of this show?

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## DESERT FIGHTER

*NATIONALISM *not ummah IS THE WAY TO GO!

BE ARROGANT
BE PROUD
*BE A NATIONALIST!*

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## Sugarcane

Desert Fox said:


> To hell with the "ummah", Pakistan Zindabad! Palestine is not our problem, neither is Israel, we share no border or ethnicity with these countries so why should we share the headache of the arabs?



BTW - What Pakistan have done for Palestine other than lip-service ???????

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Freakin hell ... im thinkin of gettin a tattoo of a Pakistani flag or symbol... though people say its haram and all any suggestions? should i go for it?

---------- Post added at 03:54 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:53 AM ----------




loveicon said:


> BTW - What Pakistan have done for Palestine other than lip-service ???????



Sent our pilots to hunt israelis... send them our soldiers to protect em arabs... scholarships to palestinians... training their special forces/police or whatever.... even the help them with money in the past...

What did the umaah do for PAKISTAN?

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## RazPaK

I got a tatoo of the flag on my arm. At first my family was pissed, then they got used to it, and some my other family even liked it.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

RazPaK said:


> I got a tatoo of the flag on my arm. At first my family was pissed, then they got used to it, and some my other family even liked it.



Post a pic bro... wanna see the art... did u get it done in the states or Pakistan?


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## RazPaK

I got it in the US. I'll pm you the pic later.

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## Desert Fox

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> What did the umaah do for PAKISTAN?



Moreover what did the "ummah" do for the Kashmir cause? Pakistanis have blindly burnt American and Israeli flags on streets and squares when Iraq was invaded or when Israeli invaded Gaza in 2008, but when the blood of Kashmiris is spilled or when Afghans and innocent Pakistanis are killed then which Arab came out on the streets to burn the flag of our enemy? Which Arab came out and condemned our enemy? Or is the blood of a Pakistani, Kashmiri, Afghan worth less than the blood of the holy Arabs?

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## lionheartsalahudin

@LoveIcon 
yeah we have done nothing,agree with u on that.

the point here is that our mullas constantly manipulate the emotions of our youth through palestine and the rehtoric of ummah,and turn them into extremists and later on terrorists.rather the showing youth the path of success through progressing in technological feilds become ,scientists,engineers and strenghtehn our country so much so that someday our country's words would actually matter in the world.
no these mullah's tell them that this world's life is useless pick up arms and fight,they turn those young immature youth in to barabrians,the only thing these ppl know is hate and hatred breeds hatred,ummah might not be at fault here infact ummah i doubt even exists in todays world,but mullahs have manipulated this word so much so and put our country in harms way bcuz of it so many times that any mature pakistani today gets irratated when he hears the word ummah.

why should we be the only part of muslim body who feels pain for teh whole body why does'nt some one else feel pain for us,

so guys from now on we will build ourselves as pakistanis and pakistanis only let the ummah take its rehtoric somewhere else

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## Desert Fox

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> *NATIONALISM *not ummah IS THE WAY TO GO!
> 
> BE ARROGANT
> BE PROUD



Yes, Nationalism is the way, but arrogance and too much pride is the downfall of any nation.


Pakistani Nationalist said:


> *BE A NATIONALIST!*


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## RazPaK

Pakistanis are nationalists, but in no way are facists.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

RazPaK said:


> I got it in the US. I'll pm you the pic later.


 
We have those tattoo parlours in Pakistan ... who have people frm eu n usa doin it... but for some reason i dnt trust them... i will inshallah visit germany this summer and get a tattoo done... somethin with indus-mehrgarh-harappa-Pakistan-patriotic theme...

---------- Post added at 04:14 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:12 AM ----------




Desert Fox said:


> Yes, Nationalism is the way, but arrogance and too much pride is the downfall of any nation.



Be proud of our ethnicity -- our history-- our Flag!

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## Sugarcane

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Sent our pilots to hunt israelis... send them our soldiers to protect em arabs... scholarships to palestinians... training their special forces/police or whatever.... even the help them with money in the past...
> 
> What did the umaah do for PAKISTAN?



Would you like to provide credible sources of these facts, so that i can increase my knowledge


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## RazPaK

My father trained Saudi and Palestinian pilots back in the day, in PAF.


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## Sugarcane

RazPaK said:


> My father trained Saudi and Palestinian pilots back in the day, in PAF.



That was not for free, PA & PAF train many other countries as well.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

loveicon said:


> Would you like to provide credible sources of these facts, so that i can increase my knowledge



Google the forum... pilots like saiful azam... pics of arab/palestinian forces trained by ssg... and news of Pak providing more than 1200+ scholarships alone to palestinians(every year).... heck when we got Freedom in 47 even than we helped the palestinians (i learnt abt tht watching the interview of palestinian embassador to Pakistan by express 24/7 English)

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## Desert Fox

where can i see the rest of the show? Some of the parts are missing.


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## Sugarcane

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Google the forum... pilots like saiful azam... pics of arab/palestinian forces trained by ssg... and news of Pak providing more than 1200+ scholarships alone to palestinians.... heck when we got Freedom in 47 even than we helped the palestinians (i learnt abt tht watching the interview of palestinian embassador to Pakistan by express 24/7 English)



And what's your opinion about fee oil, funds for nukes and donations


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## DESERT FIGHTER

loveicon said:


> And what's your opinion about fee oil, funds for nukes and donations



Free oil? free soldiers protecting royals?free nuclear umbrella?nobody gave us funds for our nukes as per Dr AQ Khan and Dr Samar Mubarak... donations? even usa gave them... its a shame we take donations!

Now lets see arabs on kashmir issue? encouraging india to join OIC?no more oil frm kuwait n KSA? 
lol ... ummah yeah right!

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## Sugarcane

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Free oil? free soldiers protecting royals?free nuclear umbrella?nobody gave us funds for our nukes as per Dr AQ Khan and Dr Samar Mubarak... donations? even usa gave them... its a shame we take donations!



So, you are suggesting that we are hired guns, if so than why you are screaming we have done this and that?

I am supportive of put Pakistan first, because if we are strong and can stand on our feet than we can think to do something about others. But i hate blind patriotism or waisy bhe God doesn't like arrogance/pride.

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## lionheartsalahudin

Desert Fox said:


> where can i see the rest of the show? Some of the parts are missing.


 
just updated links from videos from geo tv channel youtube in my 1st post


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## kingkobra

which ummah?? ummah is nothing but a dream....muslims have killed more muslims throughout the history...current pakistan and balochistan is best example of it....religion can not unite anyone there will be differences always..

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## darkinsky

extreme nationalism decreases rationalism, and guys be rational instead of being a stupid national, if nationalism become pakistan's base then ethnic nationalism will also rise, a country like pakistan has no need for strict nationalism, we can be better muslims and nationals at the same time

we must think about humanity, pakistyan shares human nature with the world and we should condemn terrorism where ever possible, whether it be american terrorism, or israeli zionist terrorism

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## darkinsky

kingkobra said:


> which ummah?? ummah is nothing but a dream....muslims have killed more muslims throughout the history...current pakistan and balochistan is best example of it....religion can not unite anyone there will be differences always..



go back to the definition of unity, the unity means the common people uniting for similar cause, living in pakistan it was hard for me to find the ummah concept, but when i travelled abroad, a guy in foreign country finds another muslim to have many common things, like praying to allah in mosque, sharing the belief faith and eating halal food and common opinions on many different problems

so yes ummah is a reality if not in political sense for now then social sense also because many muslims tend to practice their religion as compared to other religions such as hinduism christianity

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## Xestan

Well, I am very disappointed by the reaction of many of the members here.

As I'm not in a mood to get into any argument, I would just like to present my view.

First of all, as Muslims, we are obliged to follow Qur'an and Sunnah, all the other things comes later.

Lets see what Qur'an and Hadith commands ME: 

*The Muminoon are but a single Brotherhood.* (The Holy Quran, 49:10)

*The Believers, men and women, are protectors one of another: they enjoin the ma`roof (all of Islam), and forbid the munkar (all that is evil; kufr): they observe regular prayers, pay Zakat, and obey Allah and His Messenger. On them will Allah pour His mercy: for Allah is Exalted in power, Wise.* (The Holy Quran, 9:71)

Muhammad (Salla Allahu `alaihi wa sallam) indicated in several Ahadith on unity and brotherhood as we can see in his (saaws) Farewell Sermon (khuTbat ul-wadaa`):

*All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action. Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood.*

Other Ahadith further elaborate on the concept of unity and brotherhood:

*"A Muslim is the brother of another Muslim. He does not oppress him, nor does he leave him at the mercy of others."* (Sahih Muslim Book 032, Number 6219)

*The Prophet said, "None of you will have faith till he wishes for his (Muslim) brother what he likes for himself."* (Sahih Al-Bukhari Volume 1, Book 2, Number 12)

*"And hold fast, all together, by the rope which God (stretches out for you), and be not divided among yourselves; and remember with gratitude Gods favor on you; for ye were enemies and He joined your hearts in love, so that by His Grace, ye became brethren;and ye were on the brink of the pit of Fire,and He saved you from it. Thus doth God make His Signs clear to you: That ye may be guided"* (The Glorious Quran 3:103)

Volume 1, Book 8, Number 386: (Sahih Bukhari)

Narrated Anas bin Malik:

Allahs Apostle said, *Whoever prays like us and faces our Qibla and eats our slaughtered animals is a Muslim and is under Allahsand His Apostles protection. So do not betray Allah by betraying those who are in His protection.*

Now when I have been commanded by ALLAH and His Messanger [S.A.W], I need no excuse to question the concept of "Ummah". Even then, lets analyse, today, if we see, Nationalism is one of the biggest cause of collective downfall of Muslims, if you believe in nationalism, then you should also give rights to Punjabis, Balochis etc because to them and other ethnic groups (Some people) believe in their own nationalism. Likewise, Kurdistan, Pushtoonistan and there are many examples if you wanna justify Nationalism.

As far as Patriotism for ones motherland is concerned, it is a part of the Iman, love for the Homeland but Islam teaches us to be loyal to the homeland but in the boundaries, your "nationalism" as you call it should NOT be above any other Muslim group which is not of your nationality.

When we talk about Pakistan, Pakistan came into being believing in the ideology of Islam, why are forgetting our founding Fathers? Have we ever analysed what they left for us, Do I need to explain the concept of Pan-Islamism that Allama Iqbal presented?

Do you want me to quote Quaid e Azam on the Unity of Muslims? He was a frontline activist for the cause of Palestine.

Unity of Muslims is the need of the hour. Whether you agree with me or disagree, my devotion towards my other Muslim brothers and Sisters is not dependent on how they look at me, but how ALLAH will look at me from above.

"*In taza khudaon mein bada sabsay watan hai; Jo pairahan iska hai, voh mazhab ka kafan hai *(Of all the new false gods, the biggest is the motherland (watan); The garment of this idea is actually the death-shroud of religion)."

-Allama Iqbal

On 15 October 1937, in the course of his presidential address to the All-India Muslim League Session at Lucknow, Muhammad Ali Jinnah said:

May I now turn and refer to the question of Palestine? It has moved the Mussalmans all over India most deeply. The whole policy of the British Government has been a betrayal of the Arabs, from its very inception. Fullest advantage has been taken of their trusting nature. Great Britain has dishonoured her proclamation to the Arabs, which had guaran-teed them complete independence for the Arab homelands and the formation of an Arab Confederation under the stress of the Great War. After having utilized them, by giving them false promises, they installed themselves as the Mandatory Power with that infamous Balfour Declaration, which was obviously irreconcilable and incapable of simultaneous execution. Then, having pursued the policy to find a national home for the Jews, Great Britain now proposes to partition Palestine, and the Royal Commissions recommendation completes the tragedy. If given effect to, it must necessarily lead to the complete ruination and destruction of every legitimate aspiration of the Arabs in their homeland  and now we are asked to-look at the realities! But who created this situation? It has been the handiwork of and brought about sedulously by the British statesmen  *I am sure I am speaking not only of the Mussalmans of India but of the world; and all sections of thinking and fair-minded people will agree, when I say that Great Britain will be digging its grave if she fails to honour her original proclamation, promises and intentions  pre war and even post-war  which were so unequivocally expressed to the Arabs and the world at large. I find that a very tense feeling of excitement has been created and the British Government, out of sheer desperation, are resorting to repressive measures, and ruthlessly dealing with the public opinion of the Arabs in Palestine. The Muslims of India will stand solid and will help the Arabs in every way they can in the brave and just struggle that they are carrying on against all odds**.*



I choose to follow my ideals, starting from Prophet Muhammed [S.A.W], to our great leaders, Iqbal and Jinnah  Period!

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## AUz

Pakistan and other (Muslim) countries should concentrate on themselves only!

Be strong and have co-operation with each other. Resolve long standing issues like Israel,Kashmir and Chechnya etc ... Go for peace , stability and economic prosperity but KEEP YOUR IDENTITY as MUSLIMS !!!!!!!! This is the best way forward. I want Pakistan to be a great state but I HATE idiot 'wanna be Westerners' in Pakistan (there are some youth in Pakistan like that) ...lol

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## Zarvan

kingkobra said:


> which ummah?? ummah is nothing but a dream....muslims have killed more muslims throughout the history...current pakistan and balochistan is best example of it....religion can not unite anyone there will be differences always..


Sir Ummah is the reality and will always will be Muslims brothers according to Quran and Sunnah if you want to check the concept of Ummah just attack Pakistan and hope our leaders declare Jihad and than you will see How much Muslims will come to join us is fight against India

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## Awesome

I think every Muslim wishes for a strong united Ummah and some way to get every one together on the basis of equality. But real life kicks in, personal and national interests often differ from Ummah interests and sooner or later its every man for itself.

Arabs have minimized their Ummah goals and are doing sort of better than we are. They have this Arab unity thing going on, which has further been shrunk to GCC unity. Even they deep down want unity, but are slowly getting realistic about what they can achieve and with whom.

Forget Islam for a while, and just think about it on practical terms. If say Pakistan and Qatar (for example's sakes) were united as one country. Who would be the leader, a Qatari or a Pakistani? There always has to be a leader whether its a person or a country thats a different thing. 

If Pakistan, Saudi, Qatar, Bahrain were in a union, then who?

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## KS

Asim Aquil said:


> If Pakistan, Saudi, Qatar, Bahrain were in a union, then who?



Saudi I guess.

Pakistanis wont have a problem as they are easily pliable to emotional blackmail.

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## Zarvan

Asim Aquil said:


> I think every Muslim wishes for a strong united Ummah and some way to get every one together on the basis of equality. But real life kicks in, personal and national interests often differ from Ummah interests and sooner or later its every man for itself.
> 
> Arabs have minimized their Ummah goals and are doing sort of better than we are. They have this Arab unity thing going on, which has further been shrunk to GCC unity. Even they deep down want unity, but are slowly getting realistic about what they can achieve and with whom.
> 
> Forget Islam for a while, and just think about it on practical terms. If say Pakistan and Qatar (for example's sakes) were united as one country. Who would be the leader, a Qatari or a Pakistani? There always has to be a leader whether its a person or a country thats a different thing.
> 
> If Pakistan, Saudi, Qatar, Bahrain were in a union, then who?


Sir that is not a problem if you have a will and talk about practical and HAZRAT MUHAMMAD SAW already told that Khilafat will be re established soon its the biggest reality and the more we are divided the more we will be attacked so Ummah is the only way out and only solution for the problems of Muslims


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## Edevelop

Zarvan said:


> Sir that is not a problem if you have a will and talk about practical and HAZRAT MUHAMMAD SAW already told that *Khilafat will be re established soon its the biggest reality and the more we are divided the more we will be attacked so* *Ummah is the only way out and only solution for the problems of Muslims*



-That is very very unlikely. Those are just dreams. Come to reality please.

-Here is the truth. If you read books and learn history then you will no that there there was never really an ummah. 

-The Ummah you are taking about was about Arab Tribes. These tribes had problems during the Prophet muhammed's era and he was the one to unite them. 

-I don't recall Pakistanis, Afghanis, Iranis, Tajiks, Indians, Turkish, Indonesians, and Malaysians to be part of the tribe or to be part of the culture, and race.----- This is a basic piece of knowledge you should know.

-During prophet's time, these countries were not in existence. Hence ummah were just Arabs (The only muslims in existence) 

-At the end of the day, in modern, contemporary muslim world, there are sets of conditions. That is again: race, culture, and history that defines muslims to them.

-Neither of these are common to some muslim countries i've listed above.

-I'll ask you a question.Why do you think there is something in this world called the "Arab League" and not something like "Muslim League"?

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## Zarvan

cb4 said:


> That is very very unlikely. Those are just dreams. Come to reality please.
> 
> Here is the truth if you read books and learn history then you will no that there there was never really an ummah.
> 
> The Ummah you are taking about was about Arab Tribes. These tribes had problems during the Prophet muhammed's era and he was the one to unite them.
> 
> I don't recall Pakistanis, Afghanis, Iranis, Tajiks, Indians, Turkish, Indonesians, and Malaysians to be part of the tribe or to be part of the culture, and race.----- This is a basic piece of knowledge you should know.
> 
> At the end of the day, the muslim world now works on some conditions. That is again: race, culture, and history.
> 
> Neither of these are common to some muslim countries i've listed above.
> 
> I'll ask you a question.Why do you think there is something in this world called the "Arab League" and not something such as "Muslim League"?


Sir that is already told by HAZRAT MUHAMMAD SAW so no Muslim can question that that is the reality which will sooner or later take place and we have to answer HAZRAT MUHAMMAD SAW on the day of judgement and we can't give him the funny reason that they didn't help so we also not helped them if they will bang their head with the wall we are not supposed to do the same thing we have to follow orders of Quran and Sunnah at every cost

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## Black Widow

1. Every one look for there profit. No one talk about mass.
2. Some Pakistani member said that Pakisatni fought against Israel, If I buy this conspiracy theory, Did they won war for Palestine? No...
3. Apart from Lip service Pakistan has done nothing for palestine. Infact one of your President Butchered 3,400 - 20,000 Palestanian in jordan.
4. One of your ex prez willing to shake hand with Israel.
5. @ kashmir: Kashmir is greedy cause for Pakistan (to control water and get access to china). It has nothing to do with Islam, This is why when your soldiers enter kasmir in 1942 and 1965, kashmiris went against you. Islamic world don't see Kashmir as Islamic cause.
6. Finally, if you form Islamic Ummah, We (India-US-west-Nato-Russia-Japan) will form non-Islamic ummah, and counter your forces in kashmir,palestine, chechnya or any where you want.
7. if you want war we will give you war, if you want peace, we will give you peace.. 

Hail peace.. Lets peace prevail every where.

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## RazPaK

^

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## jha

Desert Fox said:


> Yes, Nationalism is the way, but arrogance and too much pride is the downfall of any nation.



Nationalism has a dark side also..Patriotism is the way to go...


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## Edevelop

jha said:


> Nationalism has a dark side also..Patriotism is the way to go...



I as a Pakistani say that we are neither Nationalists nor Patriotic. If i am right then we wouldn't see our country's mess and dirty politics.

However, if there is war like with India, then it would totally be a different story


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## Black Widow

cb4 said:


> I as a Pakistani say that we are neither Nationalists nor Patriotic. If i am right then we wouldn't see our country's mess and dirty politics.
> 
> However, if there is war like with India, then it would totally be a different story



Every country goes thru rough patches, and every country comes out of it. What needed is will and determination... I Hope Pakistan will also come out of this mess,...

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## K-Xeroid

cb4 said:


> -That is very very unlikely. Those are just dreams. Come to reality please.
> 
> -Here is the truth. If you read books and learn history then you will no that there there was never really an ummah.
> 
> -The Ummah you are taking about was about Arab Tribes. These tribes had problems during the Prophet muhammed's era and he was the one to unite them.
> 
> -*I don't recall Pakistanis, Afghanis, Iranis, Tajiks, Indians, Turkish, Indonesians, and Malaysians to be part of the tribe or to be part of the culture, and race.----- This is a basic piece of knowledge you should know.*-During prophet's time, these countries were not in existence. Hence ummah were just Arabs (The only muslims in existence)
> 
> -At the end of the day, in modern, contemporary muslim world, there are sets of conditions. That is again: race, culture, and history that defines muslims to them.
> 
> -Neither of these are common to some muslim countries i've listed above.
> 
> -I'll ask you a question.Why do you think there is something in this world called the "Arab League" and not something like "Muslim League"?


I don't know which type of Books you find in Canada.. and what do you know about Pakistan cuz Your every post directly explains that you don't know a single inch about Pakistan..Do you know anything about those Arab tribes and where they exist other then Arab countries? Haha ! Ummah was just Arab then Why Prophet (S.A.W) say that all muslims are brothers to each other..
I don't know why people are using Pakistan's false flag with them If they only had been for Pakistan as a tourist and trying to fool everyone about our basic concepts...
They don't know about tribes ,They don't know about Pakistan... How can they give a good advice to us with out knowing ground realities...

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## Edevelop

Black Widow said:


> Every country goes thru rough patches, and every country comes out of it. What needed is will and determination... I Hope Pakistan will also come out of this mess,...



Agreed.

I don't know how to say this but i think it's also 'Materialism' People are interested in getting jobs, money, entertainment on personal level. That is the difference. I as a Pakistani personally think that 95/100 of us are showoffs and that to is again on a personal level. How can we collet tax when people are not interested in giving. How will country's like this run.?....

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## Black Widow

cb4 said:


> Agreed.
> 
> I don't know how to say this but i think it's also 'Materialism' People are interested in getting jobs, money, entertainment on personal level. That is the difference. I as a Pakistani personally think that 95/100 of us are showoffs and that to is again on a personal level. How can we collet tax when people are not interested in giving. How will country's like this run.?....




Even India is facing similar kind of problem. To get the taxes on time, Govt has to work, If govt will work hard, ppl will learn that there money is used in good thing, rather than going into pockets of F&&&&& Gandhys or Zardaries.

In Pakistan These Zardaries and Musharrafs, show fear of India and loot the people. People are so occupied with Kashmir and Islam that they forget there basic need (Good education and good lifestye). I have met many Pakistanis in UK and USA. They are very humble and liberal. 

One pakistani must understand "Islam is not your need, Good education is". World is racing away, you are stuck with old Ummah concept. If any one of yo want real ummah, then think abouth these things
a) Ummah help each other to become more prosperous.
b) Ummat help each other to provide education and food.

Why the hell you want ummat to fight war in Kashmir,chehcnya ad Israel??? Use ummat for good cause, not war. War can give only misery, peace can give hope..

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## Edevelop

Android K-Zero said:


> I don't know which type of Books you find in Canada.. and what do you know about Pakistan cuz Your every post directly explains that you don't know a single inch about Pakistan..Do you know anything about those Arab tribes and where they exist other then Arab countries? Haha ! Ummah was just Arab then Why Prophet (S.A.W) say that all muslims are brothers to each other..
> I don't know why people are using Pakistan's false flag with them If they only had been for Pakistan as a tourist and trying to fool everyone about our basic concepts...
> They don't know about tribes ,They don't know about Pakistan... How can they give a good advice to us with out knowing ground realities...



Well this is the only great thing about the West. Education is far more better than what is offered in the East. Go look up the budget and the amount of research spent in a University here. Predominently, people in the East are taught nothing what is the truth. False assumptions about a religion is necessary in the East to bring people under control. Take Saudi Arabia as an example.

Now that you have mentioned about Pakistan, i will be more than happy to clear that for you. You must be one of those people who claim that you are the descendants/ancestors of Prophet Mohammed. My take on that is well, prove it? Did i not mention that Arabs were the only Muslims during his era? Go back to what i said in my last post.

I can see your avatar and your name that defines your personality.  You must be one of the materialistic kind of people. "Andorid", and "JF-17". You probably know the meaning of love in gadgets but probably not in humanity.

I take Islam, Christianity, and Judaism as ONE, the only monotheistic religions. Its the matter of Ego that kills this whole world. Unlike you, i have great respect for all, including for Kafirs. 

Just like you are disagreeing with me here just shows me how far people in the East are thought about human rights and respect for logically different points of views. I don't even know if there are libraries in Pakistan. In fact, i have never actually seen any onc go there nor anyone holding a book. Maybe you can tell what books you read. 

Oh yeah by the way, i have cleared many things about my background. You don't need to be one of those typical biased retards.

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## Edevelop

Black Widow said:


> Even India is facing similar kind of problem. To get the taxes on time, Govt has to work, If govt will work hard, ppl will learn that there money is used in good thing, rather than going into pockets of F&&&&& Gandhys or Zardaries.
> 
> In Pakistan These Zardaries and Musharrafs, show fear of India and loot the people. People are so occupied with Kashmir and Islam that they forget there basic need (Good education and good lifestye). I have met many Pakistanis in UK and USA. They are very humble and liberal.
> 
> One pakistani must understand "Islam is not your need, Good education is". World is racing away, you are stuck with old Ummah concept. If any one of yo want real ummah, then think abouth these things
> a) Ummah help each other to become more prosperous.
> b) Ummat help each other to provide education and food.
> 
> Why the hell you want ummat to fight war in Kashmir,chehcnya ad Israel??? Use ummat for good cause, not war. War can give only misery, peace can give hope..


.

I don't like India's policies in Kashmir. But i'm least interested in that for now. You are right in a way. Even if we need Kashmir then why do we need ummah for help. LOL, the Arabs couldn't get their own people like Palestine to get hold of their land, and now we Pakistanis expect them to help us Solve Kashmir? Interestingly, my ancessors were the first ones to start Kashmiri movement and I'm a Pakistani- Kashmiri by the way. If they they could try to solve it on their own then why need ummah?

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## lionheartsalahudin

I don&#8217;t question that there will not be a united ummah sometime in the future but that time is not now,maybe 2~3 centuries after maybe,so my Pakistani brothers stop pushing for ummah when ur actions are not reciprocated by other parts of ummah,and think about ourselves only.

we pakistani&#8217;s were so eager to make 73 sects of islam,that we might have made them before they actually might have happened though I believe the hadith on the 73 sects is zaeef.so stop trying to worry abt the world and pay attention to our immediate problems.i will not question we standing up for our ummah the day we are at the level of Turkey or Malaysia till then lay off it.

these mullahs only appeal to our peoples emotion&#8217;s,to forward and strengthen their own political agenda,calling strikes,disrupting ppls business&#8217;es damaging peoples properties and most of all wating our youths time,if they were so eager they could have said oky today we will work overtime and send our wages for today to Palestine or if they had any foresight then try strenghtnin our country so if ever ummah comes into affect we could be a functional part of it rather then a burden.

coming to ummah ,arabs believe that they are the chosen people (like jews huh)that&#8217;s a first hand experience they think they are better blood line then us (remind&#8217;s me of nazi&#8217;s) they don&#8217;t even think of us as humans try to meet our poor workers working in gulf ,it might enlighten you what arabs think of u and ur nation,islam might be against salavery but our so called brethren arabs still carry out the practice &#8220;bonded labour&#8221; as if the expatriate isn&#8217;t a human and he he needs representation by a arab so humane is our ummah!

my cousin worked in Saudi Arabia and we were discussing politics and social like body language ,and psychology ,and evolution I told him abt a few books he could&#8217;nt find any books on those in Saudi arabia&#8217;s libraries,they intentionally deny their population common knowledge that we take for granted that&#8217;s why I would say west is better in freedom of speech,why would u not like ur people to know other aspects and other systems if u know u can defend urself against any system and other&#8217;s belief,that&#8217;s hypocricy u say ur the best but u don&#8217;t let compare with others.and I doubt that books on evolution of humans could be found in Pakistani libraries,so guys western libraries are loaded with knowledge no question abt that.our libraries are just biased.

so the point is simple what arabs do we should not care we should not let arabs effect our foreign policy we should create our own identity instead of trying to attach ourselves with arabs they don&#8217;t accpt us,its time to move on write our own acheivments rather then take pride in arabs acheivments ,be a lion and not a jackal which follows the lion.in this case we try to follow the jackal.these arabs are not the arabs of 3rd or 4th hijri centuries these are totally opposite of that we owe them nothing ,arabs are not sacred for us only the two cities are ,infact those two cities should be in control of muslim scholars from all over the world like Vatican rather then be part of any country arabs or non-arab.arabs manipulate muslim emotions through control of these two holy cities.

its true if relation ship with us does&#8217;nt affect arab&#8217;s relations with india then why should we effect our foreign policy according to arab reservations.

anyways we have to work build our country and then maybe ,be a part of the ummah till then even assuming if ummah comes into being it would not like to accept the sick man of south asia into its rank to burden it.we have to go our own way ummah can wait for now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15uVE9jTKOA

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## StandForInsaf

Though i support ummah but for me Pakistan comes first 

Geo Pakistan.
Geo Ummah (but i dont see any potential love for pakistan in afghani , hundastani , and other muslims)

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## third eye

http://www.google.com/url?q=http://...ds-cse&usg=AFQjCNEm5_rKnhH-x6CgbDiPloOAxfM_ag

This subject has bee discussed at length.

Readers can get inputs based on their leaning from the link above.


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## Zarvan

lionheartsalahudin said:


> I don&#8217;t question that there will not be a united ummah sometime in the future but that time is not now,maybe 2~3 centuries after maybe,so my Pakistani brothers stop pushing for ummah when ur actions are not reciprocated by other parts of ummah,and think about ourselves only.
> 
> we pakistani&#8217;s were so eager to make 73 sects of islam,that we might have made them before they actually might have happened though I believe the hadith on the 73 sects is zaeef.so stop trying to worry abt the world and pay attention to our immediate problems.i will not question we standing up for our ummah the day we are at the level of Turkey or Malaysia till then lay off it.
> 
> these mullahs only appeal to our peoples emotion&#8217;s,to forward and strengthen their own political agenda,calling strikes,disrupting ppls business&#8217;es damaging peoples properties and most of all wating our youths time,if they were so eager they could have said oky today we will work overtime and send our wages for today to Palestine or if they had any foresight then try strenghtnin our country so if ever ummah comes into affect we could be a functional part of it rather then a burden.
> 
> coming to ummah ,arabs believe that they are the chosen people (like jews huh)that&#8217;s a first hand experience they think they are better blood line then us (remind&#8217;s me of nazi&#8217;s) they don&#8217;t even think of us as humans try to meet our poor workers working in gulf ,it might enlighten you what arabs think of u and ur nation,islam might be against salavery but our so called brethren arabs still carry out the practice &#8220;bonded labour&#8221; as if the expatriate isn&#8217;t a human and he he needs representation by a arab so humane is our ummah!
> 
> my cousin worked in Saudi Arabia and we were discussing politics and social like body language ,and psychology ,and evolution I told him abt a few books he could&#8217;nt find any books on those in Saudi arabia&#8217;s libraries,they intentionally deny their population common knowledge that we take for granted that&#8217;s why I would say west is better in freedom of speech,why would u not like ur people to know other aspects and other systems if u know u can defend urself against any system and other&#8217;s belief,that&#8217;s hypocricy u say ur the best but u don&#8217;t let compare with others.and I doubt that books on evolution of humans could be found in Pakistani libraries,so guys western libraries are loaded with knowledge no question abt that.our libraries are just biased.
> 
> so the point is simple what arabs do we should not care we should not let arabs effect our foreign policy we should create our own identity instead of trying to attach ourselves with arabs they don&#8217;t accpt us,its time to move on write our own acheivments rather then take pride in arabs acheivments ,be a lion and not a jackal which follows the lion.in this case we try to follow the jackal.these arabs are not the arabs of 3rd or 4th hijri centuries these are totally opposite of that we owe them nothing ,arabs are not sacred for us only the two cities are ,infact those two cities should be in control of muslim scholars from all over the world like Vatican rather then be part of any country arabs or non-arab.arabs manipulate muslim emotions through control of these two holy cities.
> 
> its true if relation ship with us does&#8217;nt affect arab&#8217;s relations with india then why should we effect our foreign policy according to arab reservations.
> 
> anyways we have to work build our country and then maybe ,be a part of the ummah till then even assuming if ummah comes into being it would not like to accept the sick man of south asia into its rank to burden it.we have to go our own way ummah can wait for now.
> 
> Pakistan Identity Crisis | Indian roots but Arab Illusion.avi - YouTube


Sir I am really very sorry a Muslim cannot support a country or other wise he is not a Muslim and don't quote this Hassan Nisar the biggest cartoon ever born first ask him about his farm house and also Ummah is the concept given by ALLAH and his GREAT PROPHET SAW and only a kafir can deny it or a traitor we have to stick with it even thought others don't

---------- Post added at 02:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:17 PM ----------




StandForInsaf said:


> Though i support ummah but for me Pakistan comes first
> 
> Geo Pakistan.
> Geo Ummah (but i dont see any potential love for pakistan in afghani , hundastani , and other muslims)


Sir for a Muslim Ummah always come first Sir you have to follow orders of ALLAH and his great PROPHET SAW even though if other don't do it

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## lionheartsalahudin

Zarvan said:


> Sir I am really very sorry a Muslim cannot support a country or other wise he is not a Muslim and don't quote this Hassan Nisar the biggest cartoon ever born first ask him about his farm house and also Ummah is the concept given by ALLAH and his GREAT PROPHET SAW and only a kafir can deny it or a traitor we have to stick with it even thought others don't
> 
> well what abt all the other countries who have put their countries first then islam,why should we bother to even consider them as ummah!i am not suggesing that ummah be totally abolished,or it does not exist but ummah is just not working out for us infact we have to put it on hold for sometime maybe a century.
> 
> fine u don't like hassan nisar thats ur opinion and i will respect that.
> 
> was really suprised in awam ki adalt that the mullahs did'nt accuse wajahat of being a kafir it's a common thing in pakistani mullah circles if u can't ans with a proper logic then they give a verdict u r a kafir how convinent ,this makes me think we shoud regulate these scholar degrees as well these are parhe likhay jahils our scholars,they just lack the civilised manner in which to carry out a discussion with logics,these guys always try to impose there own version on us if we question it we are done for,islam invites pondering over every thing when we do these scholars put a full stop on it,these guys make those mudrasa student naive and close minded to even discussing or comparing with other religions.


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## Zarvan

lionheartsalahudin said:


> Zarvan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sir I am really very sorry a Muslim cannot support a country or other wise he is not a Muslim and don't quote this Hassan Nisar the biggest cartoon ever born first ask him about his farm house and also Ummah is the concept given by ALLAH and his GREAT PROPHET SAW and only a kafir can deny it or a traitor we have to stick with it even thought others don't
> 
> well what abt all the other countries who have put their countries first then islam,why should we bother to even consider them as ummah!i am not suggesing that ummah be totally abolished,or it does not exist but ummah is just not working out for us infact we have to put it on hold for sometime maybe a century.
> 
> fine u don't like hassan nisar thats ur opinion and i will respect that.
> 
> was really suprised in awam ki adalt that the mullahs did'nt accuse wajahat of being a kafir it's a common thing in pakistani mullah circles if u can't and with a proper logic then they give a verdict u r a kafir how convinent ,this makes me think we shoudl regulate these scholar degrees as well these are parhe likhay jahils our scholars,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sir I give a dam what other countries think or do I have to full fill my duties which are assigned to me as a Muslim by ALLAH and HAZRAT MUHAMMAD SAW even if others Muslims betray it other wise you should not cry if you face the wrath of ALLAH Ummah is the only solution or don't cry on troubles you face than you deserve it for betraying Islam and Ummah
Click to expand...

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## Ark-Angel

This question has got no simple and straight forward answer... or to tell the truth, this is just a waste of time.
There's no religion greater than humanity. But still I feel that we do NOT deserve to call our selves *Ummat e Rasul (SAW)*... Aaj bhai bhai ka nahi raha... Ummat ya Pakistani ki baat to baad mein aati hai... lets be realistic! Khoon sufaid ho chuka hai! 

UNITED WE STAND DIVIDED WE FALL

The believers are but a single brotherhood.

We are neither Pakistani nor Ummat! We are just a bunch of selfish people... We can't change ourselves and we want the accountability of Zardari... 

Lets be humans... Lets work for humanity but still we are and will always be *ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF PAKISTAN *

Pakistani aur Ummat kehlanay k hum isliye haq daar nahi kyun k hum Pakistani b hain, Ummat e Rasool (SAW) b hain lekin phr b aik doosray ko bardasht nahi kr sktay... Lets be united and lets work towards a better world!!!

*CHEEN O ARAB HAMARA, HINDUSTAN HAMARA
MUSLIM HAIN HUM WATAN HAIN, SAARA JAHAN HAMARA *

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## K-Xeroid

cb4 said:


> *Well this is the only great thing about the West. Education is far more better than what is offered in the East. Go look up the budget and the amount of research spent in a University here. Predominently, people in the East are taught nothing what is the truth. False assumptions about a religion is necessary in the East to bring people under control. Take Saudi Arabia as an example.*
> Now that you have mentioned about Pakistan, i will be more than happy to clear that for you. You must be one of those people who claim that you are the descendants/ancestors of Prophet Mohammed. My take on that is well, prove it? Did i not mention that Arabs were the only Muslims during his era? Go back to what i said in my last post.
> 
> I can see your avatar and your name that defines your personality.  You must be one of the materialistic kind of people. "Andorid", and "JF-17". You probably know the meaning of love in gadgets but probably not in humanity.
> 
> I take Islam, Christianity, and Judaism as ONE, the only monotheistic religions. Its the matter of Ego that kills this whole world. Unlike you, i have great respect for all, including for Kafirs.
> 
> Just like you are disagreeing with me here just shows me how far people in the East are thought about human rights and respect for logically different points of views. I don't even know if there are libraries in Pakistan. In fact, i have never actually seen any onc go there nor anyone holding a book. Maybe you can tell what books you read.
> 
> Oh yeah by the way, i have cleared many things about my background. You don't need to be one of those typical biased retards.


Educational budget ..like I said before how can give us a better advice if you don't know about My country?
You know What .. Budget is only for Government institutions.. but when we talk about Pakistan People mostly send their childs in private schools ..so budget don't matters..Then students prefer to coaching more then collage and yea cuz coaching provides them tough compitition..and Universties? Do you have any idea Wat kinds of research are going on only in Karachi University..Cuz wikipedia or other websites don't tell anything about them.. I didn't include others one but believe it others are more tough then Karachi University.. Thats wat called ground realities...

2nd I'm really surprised that you called me materialistic.. This to early for you to judge anything about me.. But yea You are nothing more then an opportunist cuz u Can spit anything to filter yourself..

 and u talk about grip ? first answer my question Wat do you know about Arab tribes...? Then every claim come next...Cuz like i mentioned you are nothing more then a false flagger..

Judism,Islam and christain taken as one.. ?? Then I'll just say you are not first comedian that i just met ever...There are lots of you man..This world is full of your kinds...

Nice try of trolling.. But mostly a tourist like you never interested in to have a visit to libarary ...May be you visited to Moen-jo-daro to find a libarary but man that city was collapsed since 4500+ year Before Jesus (A.S) born... Try again..
Atleast you proved my point very well that you are just here to bash Pakistan...You don't know any depth of ideology..Why any canadian Born kid think for Pakistan instead of his own country... ?


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## Edevelop

Android K-Zero said:


> Educational budget ..like I said before how can give us a better advice if you don't know about My country?
> You know What .. Budget is only for Government institutions.. but when we talk about Pakistan People mostly send their childs in private schools ..so budget don't matters..Then students prefer to coaching more then collage and yea cuz coaching provides them tough compitition..and Universties? Do you have any idea Wat kinds of research are going on only in Karachi University..Cuz wikipedia or other websites don't tell anything about them.. I didn't include others one but believe it others are more tough then Karachi University.. Thats wat called ground realities...
> 
> 2nd I'm really surprised that you called me materialistic.. This to early for you to judge anything about me.. But yea You are nothing more then an opportunist cuz u Can spit anything to filter yourself..
> 
> and u talk about grip ? first answer my question Wat do you know about Arab tribes...? Then every claim come next...Cuz like i mentioned you are nothing more then a false flagger..
> 
> Judism,Islam and christain taken as one.. ?? Then I'll just say you are not first comedian that i just met ever...There are lots of you man..This world is full of your kinds...
> 
> Nice try of trolling.. But mostly a tourist like you never interested in to have a visit to libarary ...May be you visited to Moen-jo-daro to find a libarary but man that city was collapsed since 4500+ year Before Jesus (A.S) born... Try again..
> Atleast you proved my point very well that you are just here to bash Pakistan...You don't know any depth of ideology..Why any canadian Born kid think for Pakistan instead of his own country... ?



First of all, I'm neither Canadian nor i was born in that country. Frankly, just to give you a surprise, i was in fact born in Saudi Arabia, a country from where Islam originated from and i've lived there for more than a decade. I have lived with arabs and interacted with tribes such as : Tameem, Anazah, and Harb, all of these you've probably never even heard of. If people like Arabs themselves are saying what i'm saying about Ummah, then i'm sorry to say that you and others have been under heavy jimaat e islami influence. LOL, Arabs consider no one but themselves as an Ummah. This is a fact you simply cannot deny.

Now, let me tell you something about myself, most of my education has been in non-private schools. That being said, i've been around Arabs, British, American, Canadian, Chinese, Japesem koreans, Pakistanis, Indians, Srilankans, Bangladeshis, French, Germans, Italians, Irish, and more. 

My family doesn't have an unlimited amount of money. I am a nothing but an ordinary middle class. This is utterly rude to say this to anyone. No wonder why the world hates you. You are nothing but a jealous ba$tard. Grow up and get some education. This is all i have to say to you.

I know more about Universities in Pakistan than you because of the fact that i have few family member who are professors, and after all, they are the ones who run it. They were beatern up, threatened, and hacked from rich families and from religious extremist groups to get their basicaly kids in illegally. 

Please now that you have mentioned Karachi University, you might wanna go and change the stats on wikipedia. After all, there will be no one to believe you, as neither its high on world rankings nor it has produced any famous people, and nor it has ever produced any indigenous piece of research.

I know a person here in Canada that was a vice chancellor at Karachi University. You must be familiar with his name. His name is Dr. Munir... He came back many times here cuz parities like MQM were threatening him.

Please come by to see universities here. Most of their budget is = to Pakistan's GDP and you will know how hard it is to compete with Asians (Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Taiwanese), and Indians, who are now the only ones dominating in this world and they are the ones that you will see becoming a super power.

Pakistan is surviving because of us Pakistanis living in the West. We give out billions of dollars each year to you. (according to many reports, Pakistanis living in the West give money back to their homeland the most. We are ranked #1 donators.) Try to thank god everyday that you are still surviving... 

Pakistanis are the worst people i've ever met. My background is Pakistani and I'm saying this to let you know from my experience. No muslim country would want to ally with Pakistan as it is very unstable country.
There is not a single country that is hoping for a united muslim ummah. Its just what Pakistanis see in their dreams. As i mentioned before, a person's race, culture, and language is what is determined for unity. Arabs and Malay (Malaysians, Indonesians, Vietnamese, etc) have done that well and that are more than happy to live with each other.

How can Pakistan think of Ummah, when they can't even control their own muslims in the country itself.  This is the truth....

Every country has some positives. There is not single country out there that is always wrong. It will be great to have good relations with muslim countries but attempting unity will cause only trouble. You should remember that Bangladesh was split because of their culture and their language. While Urdu was being imposed on them, they had decided to go in a different direction.

You probably have never met a Jew or a Christian. Their religion is very very close to us. They have their own thing like Halal food called 'Kosher', Secondly, most of their prophets are what we have as ours. They all are monotheistic religions. Meaning they truly believe in one god. Last but not the least most importantly, you should know that Islam originated from the footsteps of Judaism, Zoroastrianism, and Christianity. Islam was created to full fill only some of the requirements that god want you to learn and that said so are the 5 pillars of Islam.
Do any of them disagree on the fact that you shall not kill, steal, rape, stock neighbours, etc ??? The answer is NO. They all want positive things from human beings.

If a person was born in a Hindu family then why blame he or she. The reality is it is God's decision to put you where ever he decides. God created different ethnics, races, languages, and all various diversities so human beings could be tested to interact and learn about others. 

See this is the problem. You expect to find books in old libraries. The reality is you can find anything, any artifact in any library. This is what libraries are made for dumb a$$. I guess you're probably saying this cuz either you've never even been into one or there isn't a library around where you live. This is why i say education in the West is far better than what is offered in the East. Going to libraries and reading books will help you analyze better. Your system is 'rata' or memorizing. cramming everything at once and looking for an exact answer will never be possible to answer your doubts. Knowledge is the greatest thing God gave us and to use it depends on your nature and the type of education your tought in schools.

You should appreciate my views because the experience i'm telling you will help Pakistanis realize their mistakes. You probably won't do that but its alright at least others will read this and try to understand for the betterment.

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## K-Xeroid

cb4 said:


> First of all, I'm neither Canadian nor i was born in that country. Frankly, just to give you a surprise, i was in fact born in Saudi Arabia, a country from where Islam originated from and i've lived there for more than a decade. I have lived with arabs and interacted with tribes such as : Tameem, Anazah, and Harb, all of these you've probably never even heard of. If people like Arabs themselves are saying what i'm saying about Ummah, then i'm sorry to say that you and others have been under heavy jimaat e islami influence. LOL, Arabs consider no one but themselves as an Ummah. This is a fact you simply cannot deny.
> 
> Now, let me tell you something about myself, most of my education has been in non-private schools. That being said, i've been around Arabs, British, American, Canadian, Chinese, Japesem koreans, Pakistanis, Indians, Srilankans, Bangladeshis, French, Germans, Italians, Irish, and more.
> 
> My family doesn't have an unlimited amount of money. I am a nothing but an ordinary middle class. This is utterly rude to say this to anyone. No wonder why the world hates you. You are nothing but a jealous ba$tard. Grow up and get some education. This is all i have to say to you.
> 
> I know more about Universities in Pakistan than you because of the fact that i have few family member who are professors, and after all, they are the ones who run it. They were beatern up, threatened, and hacked from rich families and from religious extremist groups to get their basicaly kids in illegally.
> 
> Please now that you have mentioned Karachi University, you might wanna go and change the stats on wikipedia. After all, there will be no one to believe you, as neither its high on world rankings nor it has produced any famous people, and nor it has ever produced any indigenous piece of research.
> 
> I know a person here in Canada that was a vice chancellor at Karachi University. You must be familiar with his name. His name is Dr. Munir... He came back many times here cuz parities like MQM were threatening him.
> 
> Please come by to see universities here. Most of their budget is = to Pakistan's GDP and you will know how hard it is to compete with Asians (Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Taiwanese), and Indians, who are now the only ones dominating in this world and they are the ones that you will see becoming a super power.
> 
> Pakistan is surviving because of us Pakistanis living in the West. We give out billions of dollars each year to you. (according to many reports, Pakistanis living in the West give money back to their homeland the most. We are ranked #1 donators.) Try to thank god everyday that you are still surviving...
> 
> Pakistanis are the worst people i've ever met. My background is Pakistani and I'm saying this to let you know from my experience. No muslim country would want to ally with Pakistan as it is very unstable country.
> There is not a single country that is hoping for a united muslim ummah. Its just what Pakistanis see in their dreams. As i mentioned before, a person's race, culture, and language is what is determined for unity. Arabs and Malay (Malaysians, Indonesians, Vietnamese, etc) have done that well and that are more than happy to live with each other.
> 
> How can Pakistan think of Ummah, when they can't even control their own muslims in the country itself.  This is the truth....
> 
> Every country has some positives. There is not single country out there that is always wrong. It will be great to have good relations with muslim countries but attempting unity will cause only trouble. You should remember that Bangladesh was split because of their culture and their language. While Urdu was being imposed on them, they had decided to go in a different direction.
> 
> You probably have never met a Jew or a Christian. Their religion is very very close to us. They have their own thing like Halal food called 'Kosher', Secondly, most of their prophets are what we have as ours. They all are monotheistic religions. Meaning they truly believe in one god. Last but not the least most importantly, you should know that Islam originated from the footsteps of Judaism, Zoroastrianism, and Christianity. Islam was created to full fill only some of the requirements that god want you to learn and that said so are the 5 pillars of Islam.
> Do any of them disagree on the fact that you shall not kill, steal, rape, stock neighbours, etc ??? The answer is NO. They all want positive things from human beings.
> 
> If a person was born in a Hindu family then why blame he or she. The reality is it is God's decision to put you where ever he decides. God created different ethnics, races, languages, and all various diversities so human beings could be tested to interact and learn about others.
> 
> See this is the problem. You expect to find books in old libraries. The reality is you can find anything, any artifact in any library. This is what libraries are made for dumb a$$. I guess you're probably saying this cuz either you've never even been into one or there isn't a library around where you live. This is why i say education in the West is far better than what is offered in the East. Going to libraries and reading books will help you analyze better. Your system is 'rata' or memorizing. cramming everything at once and looking for an exact answer will never be possible to answer your doubts. Knowledge is the greatest thing God gave us and to use it depends on your nature and the type of education your tought in schools.
> 
> You should appreciate my views because the experience i'm telling you will help Pakistanis realize their mistakes. You probably won't do that but its alright at least others will read this and try to understand for the betterment.



You even can't get it,but I've done wat i want to do... I agree with few parts of your experience..But the question is how would I agree with your experience ,I never meet any jew niether I visited to that much lands


> Arabs, British, American, Canadian, Chinese, Japesem koreans, Pakistanis, Indians, Srilankans, Bangladeshis, French, Germans, Italians, Irish,


How a "Rata" culturist like me agreed with you? and have similair kind of experience ? Do you have a answer?

Pakistanis, The people that you hate most.. I never wished to know about your personal haterd...But If you can hate then you can love too... But leave it Its not the right time to expose my depth specially to you .. Let me start to answer your thoughts.

Before Prophet (S.A.W) born, Arab tribes were like same Fighting, murderuring, idol worshipping etc etc.. But Afterward when Prophet (S.A.W) sended to Arabs and the Message had been given to them . (including the message of brotherhood) .The Arab get united under the flag of Islam and became a strong Force of that time...They defeated all regional forces including the Byzantine empire..But In Last sermon of Holy Prophet(S.A.W) He clears that niether Arabic is greater then any non-arab nor non-arab is greater then Arab.. The only thing that can create Difference will be Eman (Islam). He also cleared that all muslims are brother to each other..
So watever Arbic current tribes think about their only being Ummah..It don't matters.. Cuz All Humans are equal for ALLAH.. only Eman can create difference...
Secondly I know that jews and christains They are monothistic but The basic believe is difference .....


> God created different ethnics, races, languages, and all various diversities so human beings could be tested to interact and learn about others.


But now people Fight on the basis of ethinic,races,languages Etc Can you answer it why? I would like to know your views first...


> *Every country has some positives. There is not single country out there that is always wrong. It will be great to have good relations with muslim countries but attempting unity will cause only trouble. You should remember that Bangladesh was split because of their culture and their language. While Urdu was being imposed on them, they had decided to go in a different direction.*


Like I said Before You are not able to understand the Pakistan's ideology...

I believe today the World strongest powers are Northern allies ... Suppoted "We call that unity". Unity don't means to remove border..Unity is just a time tested strategy which never failed...



> I know more about Universities in Pakistan than you because of the fact that i have few family member who are professors, and after all, they are the ones who run it. They were beatern up, threatened, and hacked from rich families and from religious extremist groups to get their basicaly kids in illegally.



Still there are professors who don't want to leave us alone against those groups... They still support education against weapons...against groupings Thats why research never stoped..
By the way can you name those extremist religious group involved in threatening(cuz there is no wahabbi student wing and some sick minded members here will start blaming KSA and wahabbi for this) just like you've mentioned the name of MQM..and yea Indians love MQM too beware of them..


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## Kaniska

cb4 said:


> First of all, I'm neither Canadian nor i was born in that country. Frankly, just to give you a surprise, i was in fact born in Saudi Arabia, a country from where Islam originated from and i've lived there for more than a decade. I have lived with arabs and interacted with tribes such as : Tameem, Anazah, and Harb, all of these you've probably never even heard of. If people like Arabs themselves are saying what i'm saying about Ummah, then i'm sorry to say that you and others have been under heavy jimaat e islami influence. LOL, Arabs consider no one but themselves as an Ummah. This is a fact you simply cannot deny.
> 
> Now, let me tell you something about myself, most of my education has been in non-private schools. That being said, i've been around Arabs, British, American, Canadian, Chinese, Japesem koreans, Pakistanis, Indians, Srilankans, Bangladeshis, French, Germans, Italians, Irish, and more.
> 
> My family doesn't have an unlimited amount of money. I am a nothing but an ordinary middle class. This is utterly rude to say this to anyone. No wonder why the world hates you. You are nothing but a jealous ba$tard. Grow up and get some education. This is all i have to say to you.
> 
> I know more about Universities in Pakistan than you because of the fact that i have few family member who are professors, and after all, they are the ones who run it. They were beatern up, threatened, and hacked from rich families and from religious extremist groups to get their basicaly kids in illegally.
> 
> Please now that you have mentioned Karachi University, you might wanna go and change the stats on wikipedia. After all, there will be no one to believe you, as neither its high on world rankings nor it has produced any famous people, and nor it has ever produced any indigenous piece of research.
> 
> I know a person here in Canada that was a vice chancellor at Karachi University. You must be familiar with his name. His name is Dr. Munir... He came back many times here cuz parities like MQM were threatening him.
> 
> Please come by to see universities here. Most of their budget is = to Pakistan's GDP and you will know how hard it is to compete with Asians (Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Taiwanese), and Indians, who are now the only ones dominating in this world and they are the ones that you will see becoming a super power.
> 
> Pakistan is surviving because of us Pakistanis living in the West. We give out billions of dollars each year to you. (according to many reports, Pakistanis living in the West give money back to their homeland the most. We are ranked #1 donators.) Try to thank god everyday that you are still surviving...
> 
> Pakistanis are the worst people i've ever met. My background is Pakistani and I'm saying this to let you know from my experience. No muslim country would want to ally with Pakistan as it is very unstable country.
> There is not a single country that is hoping for a united muslim ummah. Its just what Pakistanis see in their dreams. As i mentioned before, a person's race, culture, and language is what is determined for unity. Arabs and Malay (Malaysians, Indonesians, Vietnamese, etc) have done that well and that are more than happy to live with each other.
> 
> How can Pakistan think of Ummah, when they can't even control their own muslims in the country itself.  This is the truth....
> 
> Every country has some positives. There is not single country out there that is always wrong. It will be great to have good relations with muslim countries but attempting unity will cause only trouble. You should remember that Bangladesh was split because of their culture and their language. While Urdu was being imposed on them, they had decided to go in a different direction.
> 
> You probably have never met a Jew or a Christian. Their religion is very very close to us. They have their own thing like Halal food called 'Kosher', Secondly, most of their prophets are what we have as ours. They all are monotheistic religions. Meaning they truly believe in one god. Last but not the least most importantly, you should know that Islam originated from the footsteps of Judaism, Zoroastrianism, and Christianity. Islam was created to full fill only some of the requirements that god want you to learn and that said so are the 5 pillars of Islam.
> Do any of them disagree on the fact that you shall not kill, steal, rape, stock neighbours, etc ??? The answer is NO. They all want positive things from human beings.
> 
> If a person was born in a Hindu family then why blame he or she. The reality is it is God's decision to put you where ever he decides. God created different ethnics, races, languages, and all various diversities so human beings could be tested to interact and learn about others.
> 
> See this is the problem. You expect to find books in old libraries. The reality is you can find anything, any artifact in any library. This is what libraries are made for dumb a$$. I guess you're probably saying this cuz either you've never even been into one or there isn't a library around where you live. This is why i say education in the West is far better than what is offered in the East. Going to libraries and reading books will help you analyze better. Your system is 'rata' or memorizing. cramming everything at once and looking for an exact answer will never be possible to answer your doubts. Knowledge is the greatest thing God gave us and to use it depends on your nature and the type of education your tought in schools.
> 
> You should appreciate my views because the experience i'm telling you will help Pakistanis realize their mistakes. You probably won't do that but its alright at least others will read this and try to understand for the betterment.



Bad luck dude...You are talking too much of truth...And truth always hurts...I really doubt how many days you will survive in pdf...

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## LEGENDARY WARRIOR

Zarvan said:


> Sir I give a dam what other countries think or do I have to full fill my duties which are assigned to me as a Muslim by ALLAH and HAZRAT MUHAMMAD SAW even if others Muslims betray it other wise you should not cry if you face the wrath of ALLAH Ummah is the only solution or don't cry on troubles you face than you deserve it for betraying Islam and Ummah




Zaravan you have misunderstood the concept of ummah. Even in the time of Prophet (S.A.W) it was first the security of Madinah. In the beginning of Islam first of all Madinah was established as a state and then other countries were called in to join Islam...

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## Uchiha

Xestan said:


> Well, I am very disappointed by the reaction of many of the members here.
> 
> As I'm not in a mood to get into any argument, I would just like to present my view.
> 
> First of all, as Muslims, we are obliged to follow Qur'an and Sunnah, all the other things comes later.
> 
> Lets see what Qur'an and Hadith commands ME:
> 
> *The Muminoon are but a single Brotherhood.* (The Holy Quran, 49:10)
> 
> *The Believers, men and women, are protectors one of another: they enjoin the ma`roof (all of Islam), and forbid the munkar (all that is evil; kufr): they observe regular prayers, pay Zakat, and obey Allah and His Messenger. On them will Allah pour His mercy: for Allah is Exalted in power, Wise.* (The Holy Quran, 9:71)
> 
> Muhammad (Salla Allahu `alaihi wa sallam) indicated in several Ahadith on unity and brotherhood as we can see in his (saaws) Farewell Sermon (khuTbat ul-wadaa`):
> 
> *All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action. Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood.*
> 
> Other Ahadith further elaborate on the concept of unity and brotherhood:
> 
> *"A Muslim is the brother of another Muslim. He does not oppress him, nor does he leave him at the mercy of others."* (Sahih Muslim Book 032, Number 6219)
> 
> *The Prophet said, "None of you will have faith till he wishes for his (Muslim) brother what he likes for himself."* (Sahih Al-Bukhari Volume 1, Book 2, Number 12)
> 
> *"And hold fast, all together, by the rope which God (stretches out for you), and be not divided among yourselves; and remember with gratitude Gods favor on you; for ye were enemies and He joined your hearts in love, so that by His Grace, ye became brethren;and ye were on the brink of the pit of Fire,and He saved you from it. Thus doth God make His Signs clear to you: That ye may be guided"* (The Glorious Quran 3:103)
> 
> Volume 1, Book 8, Number 386: (Sahih Bukhari)
> 
> Narrated Anas bin Malik:
> 
> Allahs Apostle said, *Whoever prays like us and faces our Qibla and eats our slaughtered animals is a Muslim and is under Allahsand His Apostles protection. So do not betray Allah by betraying those who are in His protection.*
> 
> Now when I have been commanded by ALLAH and His Messanger [S.A.W], I need no excuse to question the concept of "Ummah". Even then, lets analyse, today, if we see, Nationalism is one of the biggest cause of collective downfall of Muslims, if you believe in nationalism, then you should also give rights to Punjabis, Balochis etc because to them and other ethnic groups (Some people) believe in their own nationalism. Likewise, Kurdistan, Pushtoonistan and there are many examples if you wanna justify Nationalism.
> 
> As far as Patriotism for ones motherland is concerned, it is a part of the Iman, love for the Homeland but Islam teaches us to be loyal to the homeland but in the boundaries, your "nationalism" as you call it should NOT be above any other Muslim group which is not of your nationality.
> 
> When we talk about Pakistan, Pakistan came into being believing in the ideology of Islam, why are forgetting our founding Fathers? Have we ever analysed what they left for us, Do I need to explain the concept of Pan-Islamism that Allama Iqbal presented?
> 
> Do you want me to quote Quaid e Azam on the Unity of Muslims? He was a frontline activist for the cause of Palestine.
> 
> Unity of Muslims is the need of the hour. Whether you agree with me or disagree, my devotion towards my other Muslim brothers and Sisters is not dependent on how they look at me, but how ALLAH will look at me from above.
> 
> "*In taza khudaon mein bada sabsay watan hai; Jo pairahan iska hai, voh mazhab ka kafan hai *(Of all the new false gods, the biggest is the motherland (watan); The garment of this idea is actually the death-shroud of religion)."
> 
> -Allama Iqbal
> 
> On 15 October 1937, in the course of his presidential address to the All-India Muslim League Session at Lucknow, Muhammad Ali Jinnah said:
> 
> May I now turn and refer to the question of Palestine? It has moved the Mussalmans all over India most deeply. The whole policy of the British Government has been a betrayal of the Arabs, from its very inception. Fullest advantage has been taken of their trusting nature. Great Britain has dishonoured her proclamation to the Arabs, which had guaran-teed them complete independence for the Arab homelands and the formation of an Arab Confederation under the stress of the Great War. After having utilized them, by giving them false promises, they installed themselves as the Mandatory Power with that infamous Balfour Declaration, which was obviously irreconcilable and incapable of simultaneous execution. Then, having pursued the policy to find a national home for the Jews, Great Britain now proposes to partition Palestine, and the Royal Commissions recommendation completes the tragedy. If given effect to, it must necessarily lead to the complete ruination and destruction of every legitimate aspiration of the Arabs in their homeland  and now we are asked to-look at the realities! But who created this situation? It has been the handiwork of and brought about sedulously by the British statesmen  *I am sure I am speaking not only of the Mussalmans of India but of the world; and all sections of thinking and fair-minded people will agree, when I say that Great Britain will be digging its grave if she fails to honour her original proclamation, promises and intentions  pre war and even post-war  which were so unequivocally expressed to the Arabs and the world at large. I find that a very tense feeling of excitement has been created and the British Government, out of sheer desperation, are resorting to repressive measures, and ruthlessly dealing with the public opinion of the Arabs in Palestine. The Muslims of India will stand solid and will help the Arabs in every way they can in the brave and just struggle that they are carrying on against all odds**.*
> 
> 
> 
> I choose to follow my ideals, starting from Prophet Muhammed [S.A.W], to our great leaders, Iqbal and Jinnah  Period!



All the hadith you have posted are nothing but made up, and there's no proof the Prophet actually ever said such a thing
And the ayahs you've posted are out of context, please dear troll, get a life and lose that holier than thou attitude.

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## Uchiha

Black Widow said:


> 1. Every one look for there profit. No one talk about mass.
> 2. Some Pakistani member said that Pakisatni fought against Israel, If I buy this conspiracy theory, Did they won war for Palestine? No...
> 3. Apart from Lip service Pakistan has done nothing for palestine. Infact one of your President Butchered 3,400 - 20,000 Palestanian in jordan.
> 4. One of your ex prez willing to shake hand with Israel.
> 5. @ kashmir: Kashmir is greedy cause for Pakistan (to control water and get access to china). It has nothing to do with Islam, This is why when your soldiers enter kasmir in 1942 and 1965, kashmiris went against you. Islamic world don't see Kashmir as Islamic cause.
> 6. Finally, if you form Islamic Ummah, We (India-US-west-Nato-Russia-Japan) will form non-Islamic ummah, and counter your forces in kashmir,palestine, chechnya or any where you want.
> 7. if you want war we will give you war, if you want peace, we will give you peace..
> 
> Hail peace.. Lets peace prevail every where.


Wow, you write in blue and think you look less trollish? Get a life, no dirtier scum than those too full of themselves.
Indian logic: Repeat same crap over and over again at every chance you get, and expect people to think of it as the truth.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Black Widow said:


> 1. Every one look for there profit. No one talk about mass.
> 2. Some Pakistani member said that Pakisatni fought against Israel, If I buy this conspiracy theory, Did they won war for Palestine? No..




Sending PAF pilots meant something... were we supposed to win it alone?




> 3. Apart from Lip service Pakistan has done nothing for palestine. Infact one of your President Butchered 3,400 - 20,000 Palestanian in jordan.



Funny you talk ahbt things u dnt know abt... go read the history!



> 4. One of your ex prez willing to shake hand with Israel.



Does it matter?


> 5. @ kashmir: Kashmir is greedy cause for Pakistan (to control water and get access to china). It has nothing to do with Islam, This is why when your soldiers enter kasmir in 1942 and 1965, kashmiris went against you. Islamic world don't see Kashmir as Islamic cause.



Lol we already have access to china dont we? we sent troops in 42?  smokin some afghan kush are ya? water? we already have it... unless india stops it which would be an act of war.... Kashmiris went against Pakistan? if you had done some homework abt the issue you wouldnt give out such a stupid remark abt it... it was the kashmiris tht first requested 300 guns frm Pakistan when dogras were busy killing,looting n burning villages tht could be seen frm murree.... also do read abt the mass influs of refugees frm IOK...? heck dogras at one place genocided 250K kashmiris!! when they were protesting to merge with Pakistan!



> 6. Finally, if you form Islamic Ummah, We (India-US-west-Nato-Russia-Japan) will form non-Islamic ummah, and counter your forces in kashmir,palestine, chechnya or any where you want.



Do you think US would send its forces for india or russia?LOL ..



> 7. if you want war we will give you war, if you want peace, we will give you peace..



Damn we scared man! everyday ur papers post shyt abt Pak...ur general gives stupid statements abt limited Nwar..2 front war n what not...and who are we? i reckon usa,japan,nato,west or russians would send their soldiers to protect u!... there is no more ussr there for you!



> Hail peace.. Lets peace prevail every where.



Sane thing out of all the nonsense in your post to which i agree!

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## Xestan

Uchiha said:


> All the hadith you have posted are nothing but made up, and there's no proof the Prophet actually ever said such a thing
> And the ayahs you've posted are out of context, please dear troll, get a life and lose that holier than thou attitude.



Replying without any supportive argument is proving you to be a troll, not me.

The hadiths are taken from Sihah e Sitta, the six most authentic books of Hadith and even almost all the Hadith I posted are from Sahih Bukhari, the MOST authentic book of Hadith, now if you don't wanna believe on them, that's your problem, calling them "made-up" is just showing that you're being too much naive, when you have no knowledge of something, then you shouldn't poke your nose in that matter.

Qur'anic verses are well in context too, prove me wrong, com'on kid, anyone who follows my posts knows it very well that I am not a troll.

And what about your founding fathers? Their words are also fabricated? hunmm? :/

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## Edevelop

Uchiha said:


> All the hadith you have posted are nothing but made up, and there's no proof the Prophet actually ever said such a thing
> And the ayahs you've posted are out of context, please dear troll, get a life and lose that holier than thou attitude.



Moreover, the hadith came out when the prophet died. Its exactly how john, luke, mark, and paul did by starting to come up with what Jesus had said about christianity (after he died). If we musliims don't agree with Bible then how can we be so sure about hadith. They both more or less came in a same way and arose when the two prophets were taken in by god. My belief lies only in the Quran in Islam. That is the truth of God's message.

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## Xestan

cb4 said:


> Moreover, the hadith came out when the prophet died. Its exactly how john, luke, mark, and paul started coming up with what Jesus had said about christianity after he died (their interpretation). From this can we state that some of these guys i.e john, and Luke were successors? What is the historical relationship between them and jesus? I think some things are a myth and hadith is no different from this....



And you "think" that what you "think" is right? 

You're trying to say, All the great scholars of Islam, from the start, till today are FOOLS? Almost whole Islamic world have consensus on the issue and here we have so called intellectuals presenting their own theories, you need to do some research.


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## KS

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> heck dogras at one place genocided 250K kashmiris!! when they were protesting to merge with Pakistan!



Unsubstantiated BS.


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## asad71

A Mussalman is a custodian of every other Mussalman. That is the true spirit of Islamic brotherhood. Therein lies the beauty and strength of the Ummah.

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## Edevelop

Xestan said:


> And you "think" that what you "think" is right?
> 
> You're trying to say, All the great scholars of Islam, from the start, till today are FOOLS? Almost whole Islamic world have consensus on the issue and here we have so called intellectuals presenting their own theories, you need to do some research.


.

You are a retard...

Read this debate on this website:

Why Trash all the Hadiths?

*Judging each hadith on its individual merit may seem attractive for those who are not satisfied with God's book, but it is a waste of time and a deceptive method. If the signature of narrators (sanad) cannot provide authenticity about the source of hadith, then, our only guide to decide on the content of hadiths (matn) will be our personal wish or our current inclinations.* How can we decide which hadith has a merit? *How can we decide which hadiths is accurate? We may say "by comparing them with the Quran!" But, what this really mean? If it is "me" who will compare a hadith to the Quran, if it is again "me" who will judge whether it contradicts the Quran or not, then, I will end up with "hadith" which supports "my" personal understanding of the Quran. In this case hadith cannot function as an explanation of the Quran. They will be confirmation or justification of my understanding of the Quran; with literally tasteless, grammatically lame language.... Furthermore, what about hadiths that bring extra duties and prohibitions? *


There are many hadiths about the prophet's life which you cannot accept them with a sober mind. They are narrated repeatedly in many so-called authentic books. *We cannot create a history out of a mishmash of narration by a subjective method of pick and choose. We can create many conflicting portraits of Muhammad out of those hadiths. As for pure historical events that isolated from their moral and religious implications, they are not part of the religion, and we don't need them for our salvation.* I never said "we should not read hadith." *In fact, we can study hadith books to get an approximate idea about the people and events of those times. We can even construct a "conjecture" about the history, without attributing them to God or his prophet. Please don't forget that the "history" is not immune of filtration, censorship and distortion of ruling class. You can see many different versions of histories (!) regarding the era of early Islam . Just read Sunny and Shiite histories.*

So IMO, so called 'Muslim Ummah' is a Hadith and as mentioned rightly by the source, Hadiths is and will be our personal wish or our current inclination


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## NeutralCitizen

No your not Pakistan is trying be like Superman it's time you focus on yourself, Pakistan is trying to be the savior of the Ummah yet the Ummah doesn't seem to care much for Pakistan It's time you fix yourself then you can start worrying about the Ummah.

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## livingdead

asad71 said:


> A Mussalman is a custodian of every other Mussalman. That is the true spirit of Islamic brotherhood. Therein lies the beauty and strength of the Ummah.



When will you get your beautiful ummah?

Other religions dont have ummah are they missing anything?
The jews have one nation state and they encourage every jew to join them. 
Most western countries(mostly Christians) are integrated, can travel easily to other countries
Indians and nepali (mostly hindus) can cross each others border and work in other country.


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## Edevelop

NeutralCitizen said:


> No your not Pakistan is trying be like Superman it's time you focus on yourself, Pakistan is trying to be the savior of the Ummah yet the Ummah doesn't seem to care much for Pakistan It's time you fix yourself then you can start worrying about the Ummah.



Pakistanis building Nuclear Weapons as the only mulslim country is great. But to say confidently that it is for all muslims around the world is frankly quite pathetic. An achievement is an achievement. Credit should be given on this basis. But to act like 'Superman' is quite artificial and unrealistic as we are on the verge on getting collapsed economically, socially, and territorially. I have always agreed to the fact that Pakistan (my own country) is always trying so hard to act like an a$$hole.
We Pakistanis should save our own country first before jumping to a bigger gun.


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## NeutralCitizen

cb4 said:


> Pakistanis building Nuclear Weapons as the only mulslim country is great. But to say the least that it is for all muslims around the world is pathetic. An achievement is an achievement. Credit should be given on this basis. But to act like 'Superman' is quite artificial and unrealistic as we are on the verge on getting collapsed economically, socially, and territorially. I have always agreed to the fact that Pakistan (my own country) is always trying to act like an a$$hole.
> We Pakistanis should save our own country first before jumping to the gun.



Pakistan building Nukes was mainly for India, you wanted Nukes you got your wish even if you have to eat grass for a 1000 years. Agreed Pakistan should Look after Pakistan first when it gets stronger you can come back to being custodian or whatever you want.


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## A1Kaid

Pakistan isn't the custodian of the Holy Cities. For now Pakistan must focus on domestic and regional issues that have bogged down the nation politically and economically. One day may be but not anytime soon.


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## YouGotRouged

asad71 said:


> A Mussalman is a custodian of every other Mussalman. That is the true spirit of Islamic brotherhood. Therein lies the beauty and strength of the Ummah.



And there lies the line that gave birth to the 'us vs them' logic for the second time in history.

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## Xestan

cb4 said:


> .
> 
> You are a retard...
> 
> Read this debate on this website:
> 
> Why Trash all the Hadiths?
> 
> *Judging each hadith on its individual merit may seem attractive for those who are not satisfied with God's book, but it is a waste of time and a deceptive method. If the signature of narrators (sanad) cannot provide authenticity about the source of hadith, then, our only guide to decide on the content of hadiths (matn) will be our personal wish or our current inclinations.* How can we decide which hadith has a merit? *How can we decide which hadiths is accurate? We may say "by comparing them with the Quran!" But, what this really mean? If it is "me" who will compare a hadith to the Quran, if it is again "me" who will judge whether it contradicts the Quran or not, then, I will end up with "hadith" which supports "my" personal understanding of the Quran. In this case hadith cannot function as an explanation of the Quran. They will be confirmation or justification of my understanding of the Quran; with literally tasteless, grammatically lame language.... Furthermore, what about hadiths that bring extra duties and prohibitions? *
> 
> 
> There are many hadiths about the prophet's life which you cannot accept them with a sober mind. They are narrated repeatedly in many so-called authentic books. *We cannot create a history out of a mishmash of narration by a subjective method of pick and choose. We can create many conflicting portraits of Muhammad out of those hadiths. As for pure historical events that isolated from their moral and religious implications, they are not part of the religion, and we don't need them for our salvation.* I never said "we should not read hadith." *In fact, we can study hadith books to get an approximate idea about the people and events of those times. We can even construct a "conjecture" about the history, without attributing them to God or his prophet. Please don't forget that the "history" is not immune of filtration, censorship and distortion of ruling class. You can see many different versions of histories (!) regarding the era of early Islam . Just read Sunny and Shiite histories.*
> 
> So IMO, so called 'Muslim Ummah' is a Hadith and as mentioned rightly by the source, Hadiths is and will be our personal wish or our current inclination



Haha I can just laugh at your illogical argument. Sorry, do you want me to copy-paste some debates from sites as well? Let it go man, you're not the right guy to talk with, go to my earlier posts and debunk them or don't reply again.


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## K-Xeroid

cb4 said:


> Pakistanis building Nuclear Weapons as the only mulslim country is great. But to say confidently that it is for all muslims around the world is frankly quite pathetic. An achievement is an achievement. Credit should be given on this basis. But to act like 'Superman' is quite artificial and unrealistic as we are on the verge on getting collapsed economically, socially, and territorially. I have always agreed to the fact that Pakistan (my own country) is always trying so hard to act like an a$$hole.
> *We Pakistanis should save our own country first before jumping to a bigger gun.*


Not you again...
Don't try to impose your opinion here on us , Don't use false identity with you .... Nation born from ideology and you are opposing it.. Don't pretend to be Pakistani.. You are a liar.. You still don't know the basics and don't have any depth in yourself.

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## Zarvan

cb4 said:


> Pakistanis building Nuclear Weapons as the only mulslim country is great. But to say confidently that it is for all muslims around the world is frankly quite pathetic. An achievement is an achievement. Credit should be given on this basis. But to act like 'Superman' is quite artificial and unrealistic as we are on the verge on getting collapsed economically, socially, and territorially. I have always agreed to the fact that Pakistan (my own country) is always trying so hard to act like an a$$hole.
> We Pakistanis should save our own country first before jumping to a bigger gun.


Sir we lost half of Pakistan when we stopped promoting this theory and Muslims started getting divided on those things which have nothing to do with Islam and we lost half of Pakistan even now many are calling for independence and funny thing is if you look at them they are all secular traitors of Islam who never talk of Islam


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## Capt.Popeye

asad71 said:


> A Mussalman is a custodian of every other Mussalman. That is the true spirit of Islamic brotherhood. Therein lies the beauty and strength of the Ummah.



Then why have the Iraqis been fighting with Iranians,Iranians with Saudis, Bahrainis with Iranians and the Shia-Sunni fissures keep popping up now and again?


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## Fasih Khan

*Paewasta reh shajar sae, Umeed-e-Bahar rakh*

Are we forgetting the teachings !!!


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## KS

Truth be told Islam was purely a religion only during th time of the Prophet..after his death it became a politico-religious movement and therein started the tussle for power between rival groups..the most famous being the shia-sunni split.

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## Zarvan

KS said:


> Truth be told Islam was purely a religion only during th time of the Prophet..after his death it became a politico-religious movement and therein started the tussle for power between rival groups..the most famous being the shia-sunni split.


Sir It it was never a religion Sir it was always a deen and deen covers all aspects of life including politics Islam has complete rules about how to rule and govern Sir

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## KS

Zarvan said:


> Sir It it was never a religion Sir it was always a deen and deen covers all aspects of life including politics Islam has complete rules about how to rule and govern Sir



Well when politics and religion meet its inevitably disaster.

Islam was nothing but a politico-religious movement by the Arabs - especially after the prophet died -- to strengthen their rule over the nearby areas.


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## Zarvan

KS said:


> Well when politics and religion meet its inevitably disaster.
> 
> Islam was nothing but a politico-religious movement by the Arabs - especially after the prophet died -- to strengthen their rule over the nearby areas.


Sir Islam was always a political movement and was started by HAZRAT MUHAMMAD SAW and his companions followed his orders


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## A.Muqeet khan

ha many idiot people don't understand the difference btw the philosophy and the system islam simply covers the philosophy not the system. Agar esa hota to Allah hamesha sahi nizam bheghtey . it would have been flaw less after all he is a God and if he cant then there is no God and the point of this whole discussion is mute. so the philosophy is send and not the system. (prove me other wise )
now the difference is that "philosophy" is like abstract change able according to environment. but system is physical and dont have the obligation to change it self. like come on can we change QURAN no we cant similarly we wouldnt be able to change the system too IF IT WAS GIVEN TO US BY ALLAH; cause it would be perfect and if it was perfect then HAZRAT ALI VS HAZRAT A'Aisha wouldn't have taken place. the killing of ummayed vs abbasi wouldnt have taken place.

so i wanna say andriod and yo other person zarvan if u think that u are so knowlegable in Islam that u can say things with such impunity can u just ans this onw question what is the diffrence btw ribay and sood and did QURAN EVER SAID THAT SOOD and can u come up with justifications of ur ans 

so that i to can see either u really are versed in islam or not or that you are merrily practicing throwing hot air from some other place then you r rear


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## Zarvan

A.Muqeet khan said:


> ha many idiot people don't understand the difference btw the philosophy and the system islam simply covers the philosophy not the system. Agar esa hota to Allah hamesha sahi nizam bheghtey . it would have been flaw less after all he is a God and if he cant then there is no God and the point of this whole discussion is mute. so the philosophy is send and not the system. (prove me other wise )
> now the difference is that "philosophy" is like abstract change able according to environment. but system is physical and dont have the obligation to change it self. like come on can we change QURAN no we cant similarly we wouldnt be able to change the system too IF IT WAS GIVEN TO US BY ALLAH; cause it would be perfect and if it was perfect then HAZRAT ALI VS HAZRAT A'Aisha wouldn't have taken place. the killing of ummayed vs abbasi wouldnt have taken place.
> 
> so i wanna say andriod and yo other person zarvan if u think that u are so knowlegable in Islam that u can say things with such impunity can u just ans this onw question what is the diffrence btw ribay and sood and did QURAN EVER SAID THAT SOOD and can u come up with justifications of ur ans
> 
> so that i to can see either u really are versed in islam or not or that you are merrily practicing throwing hot air from some other place then you r rear


Sir Islam has the system only a traitor can deny that Sir Islam has system given by ALLAH but now it is test of Muslims to implement it if they will not ALLAH will destroy them and bring those Muslims who will do it Sir first read Islam before giving these kind of statements


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## A.Muqeet khan

Zarvan said:


> Sir Islam has the system only a traitor can deny that Sir Islam has system given by ALLAH but now it is test of Muslims to implement it if they will not ALLAH will destroy them and bring those Muslims who will do it Sir first read Islam before giving these kind of statements


 
Well my sir you need not argue with me i remember the time when in fata an election was held jui and one other and they said that if u must vote for jui then you would be divorced from your wife and they argurud in the similler way key only a tratoir would qeustion the word of God but still u never answered my other question after all you are so well vered in islam why not bother ans my other question


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## Tiger Awan

hhhmmmm

sometime in future we are going to see comment like these


why should i care about my country? its me and my life only

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## A.Muqeet khan

Tiger Awan said:


> hhhmmmm
> 
> sometime in future we are going to see comment like these
> 
> 
> why should i care about my country? its me and my life only


 and in sometime in future comments like these would come "hey shut up if dont have any thing to contribute and with logic and justification "and this future is dang near

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## Tiger Awan

A.Muqeet khan said:


> and in sometime in future comments like these would come "hey shut up if dont have any thing to contribute and with logic and justification "and this future is dang near



anything you don't like is illogical

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## A.Muqeet khan

Tiger Awan said:


> anything you don't like is illogical


any thing which has no place in this discution or value is illogical


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## DANGER-ZONE

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> What did the umaah do for PAKISTAN?



F-16, Fuel, Funds, Backed and Funded Nuclear project etc. are a few to point out.

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## Zarvan

A.Muqeet khan said:


> Well my sir you need not argue with me i remember the time when in fata an election was held jui and one other and they said that if u must vote for jui then you would be divorced from your wife and they argurud in the similler way key only a tratoir would qeustion the word of God but still u never answered my other question after all you are so well vered in islam why not bother ans my other question


Sir ask the question I will answer Sir in Islam you are only part of ummah and that is your only identity no one else is accepted the issue of nationalism was used by Munafiqs in the time of Hazrat MUHAMMAD SAW to divide Muslims

---------- Post added at 06:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:30 PM ----------




A.Muqeet khan said:


> any thing which has no place in this discution or value is illogical


Allright than Sir UMMAH is the concept told by ALLAH and his great PROPHET SAW and it will remain so and no force on earth can finish it or undermine it


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## A.Muqeet khan

Zarvan said:


> Sir ask the question I will answer Sir in Islam you are only part of ummah and that is your only identity no one else is accepted the issue of nationalism was used by Munafiqs in the time of Hazrat MUHAMMAD SAW to divide Muslims
> 
> ---------- Post added at 06:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:30 PM ----------
> 
> 
> Allright than Sir UMMAH is the concept told by ALLAH and his great PROPHET SAW and it will remain so and no force on earth can finish it or undermine it


i wanna say andriod and yo other person zarvan if u think that u are so knowlegable in Islam that u can say things with such impunity can u just ans this onw question what is the diffrence btw ribay and sood and did QURAN EVER SAID THAT SOOD is haram (see a simple question many would claim but not so simple question i am afraid ) and can u come up with justifications of ur ans.
yeah i know this question has no relevance to this thread but i wanna ask this question so that i may know how knowledgeable a person is and whether my time is well spent asn his logics plz mod dont delete this post


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## A.Muqeet khan

i am sure many here wont even know the differences BTW ribah and sood


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## Rusty

Nationalism is honesty a disease started by Napoleon. 
It is an artificial construct used to enslave the masses to the ruling elite. 
Whats that, you want to start wars, murder, rape, and pillage?
Sure, I don't have a problem with it because I am a patriot and support my country. 

Unfortunately almost everyone is infected with this disease, including me.

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## Zarvan

A.Muqeet khan said:


> i wanna say andriod and yo other person zarvan if u think that u are so knowlegable in Islam that u can say things with such impunity can u just ans this onw question what is the diffrence btw ribay and sood and did QURAN EVER SAID THAT SOOD is haram (see a simple question many would claim but not so simple question i am afraid ) and can u come up with justifications of ur ans.
> yeah i know this question has no relevance to this thread but i wanna ask this question so that i may know how knowledgeable a person is and whether my time is well spent asn his logics plz mod dont delete this post


Yes Sir Quran has order to banned Sood that is why after That HAZRAT MUHAMMAD SAW strictly said that all old dealing are also banned which were decided on the bases of interest and first one he said I stop the deal was of his own uncle Hazrat ABBAAS RA

---------- Post added at 06:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:45 PM ----------




A.Muqeet khan said:


> i am sure many here wont even know the differences BTW ribah and sood


Mr Ribah is actual term Sood is not any term Sir Ribah is the main term some idiots tried to create the fitna of separating these two terms so they can justify interest but that is not true Sir


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## A.Muqeet khan

Zarvan said:


> Yes Sir Quran has order to banned Sood that is why after That HAZRAT MUHAMMAD SAW strictly said that all old dealing are also banned which were decided on the bases of interest and first one he said I stop the deal was of his own uncle Hazrat ABBAAS RA
> 
> ---------- Post added at 06:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:45 PM ----------
> 
> 
> Mr Ribah is actual term Sood is not any term Sir Ribah is the main term some idiots tried to create the fitna of separating these two terms so they can justify interest but that is not true Sir



first of all the term riba was used in quran which means interest over interest that doesnot equal to interst first of all so the riba was cancelled by quran and now towards interest ...this is legal or not legal it is still a matter of debate even yet and according to alazhar universty cairo the largest muslim universty of world belives that onetime interst buissness is legal and and this was accepted by the ratio 22:1 (22 people belives that it is legit 1 belived its not) now to say whether its right or wrong is a different story but people knowing **** when come to discuss Islam my blood simply boils no sir its riba which is banned by quran and interst that is banned by ijtimah there is a bloody difference

---------- Post added at 09:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:40 PM ----------

and the English word of riba is compound interest not simply interest


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## A.Muqeet khan

Zarvan said:


> Yes Sir Quran has order to banned Sood that is why after That HAZRAT MUHAMMAD SAW strictly said that all old dealing are also banned which were decided on the bases of interest and first one he said I stop the deal was of his own uncle Hazrat ABBAAS RA
> 
> ---------- Post added at 06:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:45 PM ----------
> 
> 
> Mr Ribah is actual term Sood is not any term Sir Ribah is the main term some idiots tried to create the fitna of separating these two terms so they can justify interest but that is not true Sir



ok what is the literal meaning of riba prove it to me now and i want authentic results on it ! sir this is this this is that is all bull **** u dont even know that a human is not allowed to declare any person muslim or not yet you the muslim scholer not only passed the fatwa that muslim who thinks for a country is a non muslim what is it for me to debate . jis ko itna na pata ho wo kia batai ga kia bahass keray ga islam key barey main


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## A.Muqeet khan

******* read this and ul see what i am talking about 
Article: "The Riba-Interest Equivalence: Is there an Ijma (consensus)?" by Dr. Mohammad Omar Farooq


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## Zarvan

A.Muqeet khan said:


> first of all the term riba was used in quran which means interest over interest that doesnot equal to interst first of all so the riba was cancelled by quran and now towards interest ...this is legal or not legal it is still a matter of debate even yet and according to alazhar universty cairo the largest muslim universty of world belives that onetime interst buissness is legal and and this was accepted by the ratio 22:1 (22 people belives that it is legit 1 belived its not) now to say whether its right or wrong is a different story but people knowing **** when come to discuss Islam my blood simply boils no sir its riba which is banned by quran and interst that is banned by ijtimah there is a bloody difference
> Mr their is nothing as Riba over riba riba is banned in all forms the thing it is legal or not was started by some traitors in Muslim Ummah who are always on the pay roll of Jews Riba is banned in all forms to study it read Minahj ul Muslim and Balgulal Maram and as far as Al Azhar is concerned their Mullah always give the fatwa which their government tells them to do
> ---------- Post added at 09:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:40 PM ----------
> 
> and the English word of riba is compound interest not simply interest


Mr their is nothing as Riba over riba riba is banned in all forms the thing it is legal or not was started by some traitors in Muslim Ummah who are always on the pay roll of Jews Riba is banned in all forms to study it read Minahj ul Muslim and Balgulal Maram and as far as Al Azhar is concerned their Mullah always give the fatwa which their government tells them to do

---------- Post added at 08:32 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:30 AM ----------

What Islam Says About Riba (Interest or Usury) - By Sheikh Shady Alsuleiman - YouTube

---------- Post added at 08:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:32 AM ----------

The Prohibition of Riba Part 1 - YouTube
The Prohibition of Riba Part 2 - YouTube
The Prohibition of Riba Part 3 - YouTube
The Prohibition of Riba Part 4 - YouTube
The Prohibition of Riba Part 5 - YouTube


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## PAKBARBIE

although it is far-fetched and idealistic...i do believe that there are huge benefits in uniting the ummah if we want to save ourselves from further degradation and persecution. we (muslims) are an easily target because we are so divided. i'm not saying that we feel the pain of the arabs or vice versa. but politically it would be to our advantage if we were to cooperate. if we really became allies and had each others backs (the same policies) against the tyrants and oppressors they would not be able to mess. unification of the ummah could happen without the eradication of nation states. it could be more like an alliance and cooperation.

the advantages of cooperation are too many. even in the example of Hindu-Muslim unity in British India...the only way we were able to evoke feelings of azaadi from the British Tyrants was by being united. if we had remained United by these cultural and ethnic ties we would have been powerful region and the west would think twice before messing with us. but Hindu-Muslim unity became an idealistic and hopeless notion-hence the creation of pak... and the same applies to the 'Muslim Ummah' notion. we are divided within our own country so how can we expect other nations to unite with us. the sad thing is that pak is probably the modern state that has been there most for the ummah in times of need. when will the rest wake up and reciprocate?

United we stand, divided we fall

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## Peaceful Civilian

For me, Pakistan is always first  then religion and other thing comes..


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## AUz

kingkobra said:


> which ummah?? ummah is nothing but a dream....muslims have killed more muslims throughout the history...current pakistan and balochistan is best example of it....religion can not unite anyone there will be differences always..



Buzz off with your propaganda.

Mongols, British, Americans have killed Muslims in millions..yes, in millions...no Muslim power killed more Muslims than Mongols did..

So no, Muslims haven't killed more Muslims! Non-Muslims have killed us..and are continuing to do so...

Islam did and still does unite people all across globe..it unites people into a unique thread of bond, belonging, and brotherhood..Unlike any other religion (perhaps Judaism is exception), Islam is a complete code of life. It binds together billions of people of different ethnicities, nationalities, and races by providing them an over-arching cultural umbrella which covers legal, social, dietary, economic, spiritual, political, romantic, and even personal hygiene aspects of their lives....but this is on people to people level and this brings to my reply on the topic.

On people to people level, we are Muslims and we must support each other and help each other etc. But on national level, WE ARE PAKISTAN FIRST!!!!!!!! We aren't "protectors" of anyone but ourselves!!! National interests reign supreme. It doesn't mean that we'll just run over our Muslim friends...no. But it just means that we'll protect our national interests and demand respect from others! We won't let Arabs play dirty with our nation...

*Be proud on being a Pakistani!* 

Understand how lucky you are, afterall, some people are born "indian"


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## funtoosh

Desert Fox said:


> To hell with the "ummah", Pakistan Zindabad! Palestine is not our problem, neither is Israel, we share no border or ethnicity with these countries so why should we share the headache of the arabs?
> 
> ---------- Post added at 03:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:36 AM ----------
> 
> What is the name of this show?


 ae .. you fergot Kashmir ya


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## funtoosh

AUz said:


> Buzz off with your propaganda.
> 
> Mongols, British, Americans have killed Muslims in millions..yes, in millions...no Muslim power killed more Muslims than Mongols did..
> 
> So no, Muslims haven't killed more Muslims! Non-Muslims have killed us..and are continuing to do so...
> 
> Islam did and still does unite people all across globe..it unites people into a unique thread of bond, belonging, and brotherhood..Unlike any other religion (perhaps Judaism is exception), Islam is a complete code of life. It binds together billions of people of different ethnicities, nationalities, and races by providing them an over-arching cultural umbrella which covers legal, social, dietary, economic, spiritual, political, romantic, and even personal hygiene aspects of their lives....but this is on people to people level and this brings to my reply on the topic.
> 
> On people to people level, we are Muslims and we must support each other and help each other etc. But on national level, WE ARE PAKISTAN FIRST!!!!!!!! We aren't "protectors" of anyone but ourselves!!! National interests reign supreme. It doesn't mean that we'll just run over our Muslim friends...no. But it just means that we'll protect our national interests and demand respect from others! We won't let Arabs play dirty with our nation...
> 
> *Be proud on being a Pakistani!*
> 
> Understand how lucky you are, afterall, some people are born "indian"


 hello.., your ancestors were hindus and these muslims have killed and raped billions of them. I hope you convert back to your original hindu religion


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## funtoosh

RazPaK said:


> I got a tatoo of the flag on my arm. At first my family was pissed, then they got used to it, and some my other family even liked it.


ye haath mujhe de de thakur, ye haath mujhe dede. aaaaaahhhhh.


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## M. Sarmad

I am a bit confused here !!! If Pakistan comes first , and then comes the religion , then why the hell was pakistan even created ?? We share nothing , punjabis are totally different from baluchis and pakthuns !! ethnicity , history , language , culture , geography , climate , society ... everything . Was two nation theory, a lie, told by our ancestors ? What about the prophet (pbuh) saying muslims are one ummah !!! ......................And who dares to say that "to hell with ummah" can go and f*** himself


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## AUz

funtoosh said:


> hello.., your ancestors were hindus and these muslims have killed and raped billions of them. I hope you convert back to your original hindu religion



No, sorry.

We got enlightened. We can't go back to a religion that regards human being as "untouchables" b/c of his birth in a certain caste. Also, we can't worship cow dung..nor drink cow p!ss as a religious ritual.

Kindly, join us in our enlightened state..and convert to Islam....


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## Panther 57

Azlan Haider said:


> I am a bit confused here !!! If Pakistan comes first , and then comes the religion , then why the hell was pakistan even created ?? We share nothing , punjabis are totally different from baluchis and pakthuns !! ethnicity , history , language , culture , geography , climate , society ... everything . Was two nation theory, a lie, told by our ancestors ? What about the prophet (pbuh) saying muslims are one ummah !!! ......................And who dares to say that "to hell with ummah" can go and f*** himself


National identity does have its own significance, which has been acknowledge by Islam also. I also use to wonder why Islam has recognised tribes, countries and geographical boundaries. Now I realise it, when I look at the current state of Muslims. I don't think it is Ummah any more. It is a concocted version of sectarianism. different factions trying to impose their own belief on others and considering all other schools of thought as infidels. In present situation priority should be given to nationalism as Pakistanis. When consolidation as nation is done then we can look forward to reincarnation of Ummah.


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## AUz

Azlan Haider said:


> I am a bit confused here !!! If Pakistan comes first , and then comes the religion , then why the hell was pakistan even created ?? We share nothing , punjabis are totally different from baluchis and pakthuns !! ethnicity , history , language , culture , geography , climate , society ... everything . Was two nation theory, a lie, told by our ancestors ? What about the prophet (pbuh) saying muslims are one ummah !!! ......................And who dares to say that "to hell with ummah" can go and f*** himself



Pakistan was created for the Muslims of North-Western subcontinent...

And diversity among a nation is a normal thing...you don't all have to be same ethnicity to form a nation..

Pakistan comes *first*, Islam second....

Your identity is Pakistan, not "islam"....

Arabs, Turks, Iranian don't give a sh!t about you..they laugh at you..and consider you as being an 'inferior', 'ugly' person. Take pride in YOUR nation...make it the most kicka$$ nation around...crying "ummah" ummah will do you no good, kid.


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## EasyNow

I get so irritated by this ridiculous Ummah talk - what ummah are we talking about? The very day after the prophet's death there was disagreement within the ummah (which was the greatest ummah of all). 

Within a few years his favourite, Hazrat Ali, was murdered. Within 10 years hundreds of Sahaba were killed in battles. Remember these people sat with, ate with, walked and talked with the greatest man who ever lived - and they were all killed by guess who? The ummah. 

Hazrat Aisha herself, took arms against her son-like nephew Hzt Ali. Where is this muslim unity that everyone talks about? From that day to this the ummah has always fought within itself. If we follow the example of the Sahaba, Aisha and Ali and everyone else who came afterwards then we should know that everyone is only interested in looking after their own groups. 

So take your rose-tinted glasses off, get off your podium and start acting a little bit humble. If you are realistic about our past, maybe you can be realistic about the future. First worry about yourself, then your neighbour, then your neighbourhood and then start to even imagine the rest of the world.

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## M. Sarmad

Panther 57 said:


> National identity does have its own significance, which has been acknowledge by Islam also. I also use to wonder why Islam has recognised tribes, countries and geographical boundaries. Now I realise it, when I look at the current state of Muslims. I don't think it is Ummah any more. It is a concocted version of sectarianism. different factions trying to impose their own belief on others and considering all other schools of thought as infidels. In present situation priority should be given to nationalism as Pakistanis. When consolidation as nation is done then we can look forward to reincarnation of Ummah.


 You are missing the point here ... Germans would still be germans without a germany , A japanese would be a japanese even if Japan siezes to exist .,, its because of the ethnicity , language and culture ... But Pakistan is a totally different case ... its neither a ethnic , nor a geo-cultural entity .. It is purely an IDEOLOGICAL state and if you negate its very ideology , then it is practically impossible to hold the country together as common religion is the only binding force between the entirely different ethnic groups of our country .. I agree that secterianism has become a major issue , but what you are suggesting is more like "throwing the sick person out of the house" instead of trying to cure his ailment

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## M. Sarmad

AUz said:


> Pakistan was created for the Muslims of North-Western subcontinent...
> 
> And diversity among a nation is a normal thing...you don't all have to be same ethnicity to form a nation..
> 
> Pakistan comes *first*, Islam second....
> 
> Your identity is Pakistan, not "islam"....
> 
> Arabs, Turks, Iranian don't give a sh!t about you..they laugh at you..and consider you as being an 'inferior', 'ugly' person. Take pride in YOUR nation...make it the most kicka$$ nation around...crying "ummah" ummah will do you no good, kid.


Pakistan was created for muslims of north west sub continent only ?? to become a nation you should have atleast some thing common , unfortunately in this case we have nothing in common except our religion ... You have no idea about what an ideological state is... so its better that you go back to school and take a few history and philosophy classes KID

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## M. Sarmad

PersonasNonGrata said:


> I get so irritated by this ridiculous Ummah talk - what ummah are we talking about? The very day after the prophet's death there was disagreement within the ummah (which was the greatest ummah of all).
> 
> Within a few years his favourite, Hazrat Ali, was murdered. Within 10 years hundreds of Sahaba were killed in battles. Remember these people sat with, ate with, walked and talked with the greatest man who ever lived - and they were all killed by guess who? The ummah.
> 
> Hazrat Aisha herself, took arms against her son-like nephew Hzt Ali. Where is this muslim unity that everyone talks about? From that day to this the ummah has always fought within itself. If we follow the example of the Sahaba, Aisha and Ali and everyone else who came afterwards then we should know that everyone is only interested in looking after their own groups.
> 
> So take your rose-tinted glasses off, get off your podium and start acting a little bit humble. If you are realistic about our past, maybe you can be realistic about the future. First worry about yourself, then your neighbour, then your neighbourhood and then start to even imagine the rest of the world.


Now that is a prelude of a typical secterian approach !!! All muslims believe in one quran , and that quran says "Hold tight to the rope of Allah and do not divide" ..... Quranic wisdom is absolute wisdom . we should follow it , and if we cant , then atleast we should not openly express ourselves when our thoughts contradict with quran (If we say that we r muslims)

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## EasyNow

Azlan Haider said:


> Now that is a prelude of a typical secterian approach !!! All muslims believe in one quran , and that quran says "Hold tight to the rope of Allah and do not divide" ..... Quranic wisdom is absolute wisdom . we should follow it , and if we cant , then atleast we should not openly express ourselves when our thoughts contradict with quran (If we say that we r muslims)




It is exactly the sectarian approach that i'm trying to denounce here! What i'm saying is that Muslims have been divided since day one because of sects - isn't it more reasonable that all sects should live in peace in one country and unite under support for that country. If someone is more concerned for the wider ummah than for their fellow countrymen, then neither are they a good patriot or a good muslim - as Islam says help your neighbours first.


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## Aamna14

Depends from where one's looking at it but if a Pakistani questions that "are we the custodians of Islam?" then it begs the question that when has the state or the media ever taken a pro Islamic stance? Narrating history and saying there wasn't an Ummah is incorrect as well the Ummah doesn't constitute of only a certain groups of people it includes the entire Muslim world. And the Muslim world does share a deep connection as much as people might like to add that some nations look down upon so and so. Its not too hard to reconcile the two things, being a Pakistani and a well wisher of the Ummah.


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## funtoosh

AUz said:


> No, sorry.
> 
> We got enlightened. We can't go back to a religion that regards human being as "untouchables" b/c of his birth in a certain caste. Also, we can't worship cow dung..nor drink cow p!ss as a religious ritual.
> 
> Kindly, join us in our enlightened state..and convert to Islam....


 mister, religon did not say people are untouchables. people did. it is better than treating others as kafir though. why are you going to foreign culture when you had your own. have some ghairat and follow dharma path.


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## AUz

funtoosh said:


> mister, religon did not say people are untouchables. people did. it is better than treating others as kafir though. why are you going to foreign culture when you had your own. have some ghairat and follow dharma path.



Religion does. Thats why you still have caste system. It was/is "ingrained" in Hinduism...

And we aren't going to foreign culture. I have my own punjabi culture, you need to grow up.


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## funtoosh

AUz said:


> Religion does. Thats why you still have caste system. It was/is "ingrained" in Hinduism...
> 
> And we aren't going to foreign culture. I have my own punjabi culture, you need to grow up.


 
no unfortunately you dont understand hinduism, hinduism is not one system. also caste was not part of hinduism, you need to learn that. so if that part is proved i assume you will convert to your original great religon rather than adopting foreign culture? islamic culture is arab so it foreign. punjabi culture is what is followed in delhi and amritsar..


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## SarthakGanguly

AUz said:


> Religion does. Thats why you still have caste system. It was/is "ingrained" in Hinduism...
> 
> And we aren't going to foreign culture. I have my own punjabi culture, you need to grow up.


No it does not. Dharmic culture is composite. For me Gita can be holy, for another Manu Smriti(lame) and nothing for another. They are all Hindu. There is nothing ingrained in any Dharmic faith.


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## funtoosh

AUz said:


> Pakistan was created for the Muslims of North-Western subcontinent...
> 
> And diversity among a nation is a normal thing...you don't all have to be same ethnicity to form a nation..
> 
> Pakistan comes *first*, Islam second....
> 
> Your identity is Pakistan, not "islam"....
> 
> Arabs, Turks, Iranian don't give a sh!t about you..they laugh at you..and consider you as being an 'inferior', 'ugly' person. Take pride in YOUR nation...make it the most kicka$$ nation around...crying "ummah" ummah will do you no good, kid.


 false. pak was created as muslims for whole of indian subcontinent. which is why bangladesh was part of pak. So you are still obliged to take in 180 million muslims from india.


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## M. Sarmad

funtoosh said:


> mister, religon did not say people are untouchables. people did. it is better than treating others as kafir though. why are you going to foreign culture when you had your own. have some ghairat and follow dharma path.


 This concept of Karma and Dharma , your veds , caste system etc. all comes from Aryans .. right ? Who were Aryans ? FOREIGN INVADRES.... , who invaded India , became jains , budhs and ultimately hindus and the locals (dravidians) adopted their religion . but never got any social status in aryan rule and to this day the locals are "un touchables" in hindu culture!!! So if muslims were foreign invaders , so were Aryans ...

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## GURU DUTT

AUz said:


> Pakistan was created for the Muslims of North-Western subcontinent...
> 
> And diversity among a nation is a normal thing...you don't all have to be same ethnicity to form a nation..
> 
> Pakistan comes *first*, Islam second....
> 
> Your identity is Pakistan, not "islam"....
> 
> Arabs, Turks, Iranian don't give a sh!t about you..they laugh at you..and consider you as being an 'inferior', 'ugly' person. Take pride in YOUR nation...make it the most kicka$$ nation around...crying "ummah" ummah will do you no good, kid.


wrong sir pakistan was created by the so called "divide&rule" policy of british cause they always wanted a strong hold in India and the first seeds were sown by british in 1905 when they divided bengal on basis of relegeon by lord clive if i remeber properli and british fanned the fire of hindu muslim hatred and the peak came when india got divided 

they roped in muslim nawabs and jageerdars of bengal and UP to do so they even helped them creat the muslim leauge for the same jinnah and iqubal were just pawns in this game...Pakistan was created for the feudals by the feudlas to aid british empire& interests which they did and still are doing onli the masters are now americans 

as for pakistani publick they were given a lolly of patriotism/hate india and thekedaari of so called ummah..

AMEER E SHEHER GAREEBON KO LOOT LETA HAI
KABHI BANAM E WATAN TO KABHI BALEEH E MAZHAB

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## SarthakGanguly

Azlan Haider said:


> This concept of Karma and Dharma , your veds , caste system etc. all comes from Aryans .. right ? Who were Aryans ? FOREIGN INVADRES.... , who invaded India , became jains , budhs and ultimately hindus and the locals (dravidians) adopted their religion . but never got any social status in aryan rule and to this day the locals are "un touchables" in hindu culture!!! So if muslims were foreign invaders , so were Aryans ...


Chill dude. The Aryan theory is still in dispute. Just when we thought one is true, something else props up. Dharma has evolved over centuries. But it did not come from anywhere. Animists deep in South India also had Dharmic rituals. It is not a monolithic structure. If you are getting it from Pakistan Studies, then God help you.

Anyway, please stick to the topic folks.


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## AUz

funtoosh said:


> false. pak was created as muslims for whole of indian subcontinent. which is why bangladesh was part of pak.* So you are still obliged to take in 180 million muslims from india*.



We'll happily take them..just give Punjab, Gujrat, Haryana, prosperous parts of Bihar, Hyderabad and West Bengal under our control..and Bangladesh should rejoin with us too..and we'll have 180 million more Muslims....

Hindus can have rest of india...or you all can convert to Islam and we can live together..


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## SarthakGanguly

AUz said:


> We'll happily take them..just give Punjab, Gujrat, Haryana, prosperous parts of Bihar, Hyderabad and West Bengal under our control..and Bangladesh should rejoin with us too..and we'll have 180 million more Muslims....
> 
> Hindus can have rest of india...or you all can convert to Islam and we can live together..


Historically and legally your statement has no basis. Pakistan was created for Muslims. Period. 

But the topic is not that. Please stick to the topic.


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## M. Sarmad

SarthakGanguly said:


> Chill dude. The Aryan theory is still in dispute. Just when we thought one is true, something else props up. Dharma has evolved over centuries. But it did not come from anywhere. Animists deep in South India also had Dharmic rituals. It is not a monolithic structure. If you are getting it from Pakistan Studies, then God help you.
> 
> Anyway, please stick to the topic folks.


Pakistan Studies does not teach anything about hindu religion(hinduism by defination is not a religion) ,it deals in important topics ... Sorry to disappoint you , but there is no significant dispute over the mentioned points about aryans.. And it has only been suggested that aryans MAY have originated in India and then moved outwards, but this theory has not recieved any notable acceptance among historians

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## GURU DUTT

Azlan Haider said:


> Pakistan Studies does not teach anything about hindu religion(hinduism by defination is not a religion) ,it deals in important topics ... Sorry to disappoint you , but there is no significant dispute over the mentioned points about aryans.. And it has only been suggested that aryans MAY have originated in India and then moved outwards, but this theory has not recieved any notable acceptance among historians






Well Sir do you realli think that the emperialistic minded western historians will ever conceade that aryans were origin of Indian sub continent..no sir they wont cause they formulated these theories to show there so called subjects that the western race is above the indian race in every aspect ...i can understand they did it for purpose but pakistani muslims who still proudli suffix hindu caste names like jat, malik, khokar, rajput rao,sethi want to beleave in that theori ...is that your Ehsaas e kamtari aur salve mindset


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## Panther 57

Azlan Haider said:


> You are missing the point here ... Germans would still be germans without a germany , A japanese would be a japanese even if Japan siezes to exist .,, its because of the ethnicity , language and culture ... But Pakistan is a totally different case ... its neither a ethnic , nor a geo-cultural entity .. It is purely an IDEOLOGICAL state and if you negate its very ideology , then it is practically impossible to hold the country together as common religion is the only binding force between the entirely different ethnic groups of our country .. I agree that secterianism has become a major issue , but what you are suggesting is more like "throwing the sick person out of the house" instead of trying to cure his ailment


Japanese are Japanese till Japan exist after that they will be join the club or yellow race. So is the case with Germans, who will be categorised as Europeans or whichever country they belong to. For that matter any country, not with an intention to troll but for example sake, if India is not there, Indians will either be categorised as South Asians. Two nation theory has been interpreted as per individual desires, base of two nation theory was never an Islamic state. It was a state for Muslims because it was felt that Hindus and Muslims of *Subcontinent (India) *cannot live together, Muslims felt their rights would be usurped. Therefore, India was divided into Pakistan and Bharat. Later slogan of "Pakistan Ka Matlab Kia" came into existence. Until 1940, efforts were to have united India with equal rights for Hindus and Muslims. Even after that, efforts to keep India continued, which is substantiated by the fact that AIML participated in elections after WWII. However, not being able to reach a common agenda resulted in partition.

It is in the nature of humans to have recognition. Is due to this reason The Divine revealed



> _O mankind! We created you *from* a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of God is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And God has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things)_. *Surah al-Hujurat* (49:13)



The creator tells the creation what he has instilled in him/her as nature. If you look at the verse it does not address Muslims but addresses Mankind. I would take this as his indication to us that being a nationalist do the righteous thing. He being creator knew what his creation is going to do with the interpretation of Divine Religion, thus, has provided a solution with in his book.


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## M. Sarmad

GURU DUTT said:


> Well Sir do you realli think that the emperialistic minded western historians will ever conceade that aryans were origin of Indian sub continent..no sir they wont cause they formulated these theories to show there so called subjects that the western race is above the indian race in every aspect ...i can understand they did it for purpose but pakistani muslims who still proudli suffix hindu caste names like jat, malik, khokar, rajput rao,sethi want to beleave in that theori ...is that your Ehsaas e kamtari aur salve mindset


Now that is funny !! History is not "how you like it to be" , the aryan theory is not based upon western prejudice towards india ... It has archaeological and lingual basis ... Iran literally means "land of Aryan" , and archaelogical records show that aryan settlements of iran to be older than that of india . Any ways this is a discussion surely not for you . So dont try to make fun of yourself by making such claims ... About the names of castes you mentioned , none is a "ethnic caste"... you seriously are not mature enough to debate on such serious issues

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## GURU DUTT

Azlan Haider said:


> Now that is funny !! History is not "how you like it to be" , the aryan theory is not based upon western prejudice towards india ... It has archaeological and lingual basis ... Iran literally means "land of Aryan" , and archaelogical records show that aryan settlements of iran to be older than that of india . Any ways this is a discussion surely not for you . So dont try to make fun of yourself by making such claims ... About the names of castes you mentioned , none is a "ethnic caste"... you seriously are not mature enough to debate on such serious issues


sir i know what im talking about but the hypocracy of pakistani nation is realli astonishing on one hand they use hindu caste names on the other hand they consider themselfs the decendends of arabs and central asian raiders/loters ..funny isnt it


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## Biplab Bijay

darkinsky said:


> extreme nationalism decreases rationalism, and guys be rational instead of being a stupid national, if nationalism become pakistan's base then ethnic nationalism will also rise, a country like pakistan has no need for strict nationalism, we can be better muslims and nationals at the same time
> 
> we must think about humanity, pakistyan shares human nature with the world and we should condemn terrorism where ever possible, whether it be american terrorism, or israeli zionist terrorism


One of the best post.


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## M. Sarmad

Panther 57 said:


> Japanese are Japanese till Japan exist after that they will be join the club or yellow race. So is the case with Germans, who will be categorised as Europeans or whichever country they belong to. For that matter any country, not with an intention to troll but for example sake, if India is not there, Indians will either be categorised as South Asians. Two nation theory has been interpreted as per individual desires, base of two nation theory was never an Islamic state. It was a state for Muslims because it was felt that Hindus and Muslims of *Subcontinent (India) *cannot live together, Muslims felt their rights would be usurped. Therefore, India was divided into Pakistan and Bharat. Later slogan of "Pakistan Ka Matlab Kia" came into existence. Until 1940, efforts were to have united India with equal rights for Hindus and Muslims. Even after that, efforts to keep India continued, which is substantiated by the fact that AIML participated in elections after WWII. However, not being able to reach a common agenda resulted in partition.
> 
> It is in the nature of humans to have recognition. Is due to this reason The Divine revealed
> 
> 
> 
> The creator tells the creation what he has instilled in him/her as nature. If you look at the verse it does not address Muslims but addresses Mankind. I would take this as his indication to us that being a nationalist do the righteous thing. He being creator knew what his creation is going to do with the interpretation of Divine Religion, thus, has provided a solution with in his book.


Its highly suggested that before commenting here , you should read the ideas and philosophies of nationalism , Islamic, western and others ... And u r right ,base of two nation theory was never an islamic state !! infact the base of an Islamic state was ONLY &ONLY two nation theory !!! And The verse you quoted in no way explains what you are trying to take out of it . by your explaination , a kaafir can be righteous and close to Allah too(muazallah) ??!!! Only a muslim can be righteous .. and it has been clearly stated at a lot of times in quran .. So please be careful when you interpret Quran using your personal intelligence only ....

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## Panther 57

AUz said:


> Pakistan was created for the Muslims of North-Western subcontinent....


Pakistan was not created for Muslims of North Western Subcontient. It was created for Muslims of subcontinent. In fact, people from NWS had minimal disturbance in activities related to creation of Pakistan.


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## Biplab Bijay

Zarvan said:


> Sir Ummah is the reality and will always will be Muslims brothers according to Quran and Sunnah if you want to check the concept of Ummah just attack Pakistan and hope our leaders declare Jihad and than you will see How much Muslims will come to join us is fight against India


he he he he. Nice.


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## Panther 57

@Azlan Haider I will wrap up my conversation with you based on these two points.
1. I am not here to impose my point of view on anyone. I am here to share my point of view. Therefore, a personal derogatory remark is not acceptable. Everyone is a legend in his own mind and a hero on his own stage.
2. I prefer not to indulge in discussion with people who do not respect other. 
Ciao.


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## Biplab Bijay

Black Widow said:


> 1. Every one look for there profit. No one talk about mass.
> 2. Some Pakistani member said that Pakisatni fought against Israel, If I buy this conspiracy theory, Did they won war for Palestine? No...
> 3. Apart from Lip service Pakistan has done nothing for palestine. Infact one of your President Butchered 3,400 - 20,000 Palestanian in jordan.
> 4. One of your ex prez willing to shake hand with Israel.
> 5. @ kashmir: Kashmir is greedy cause for Pakistan (to control water and get access to china). It has nothing to do with Islam, This is why when your soldiers enter kasmir in 1942 and 1965, kashmiris went against you. Islamic world don't see Kashmir as Islamic cause.
> 6. Finally, if you form Islamic Ummah, We (India-US-west-Nato-Russia-Japan) will form non-Islamic ummah, and counter your forces in kashmir,palestine, chechnya or any where you want.
> 7. if you want war we will give you war, if you want peace, we will give you peace..
> 
> Hail peace.. Lets peace prevail every where.


aapne to meri muh ki baat chinli.


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## M. Sarmad

GURU DUTT said:


> sir i know what im talking about but the hypocracy of pakistani nation is realli astonishing on one hand they use hindu caste names on the other hand they consider themselfs the decendends of arabs and central asian raiders/loters ..funny isnt it


So when you cant come up with any logical answer , you have started trying to insult pakistani nation ?? you called us hypocrites , pitiful mentality you have

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## Panther 57

Black Widow said:


> 2. Some Pakistani member said that Pakisatni fought against Israel, If I buy this conspiracy theory, Did they won war for Palestine? No...


Pakistani pilots did participate in Arab war. In fact they were on secondment to Jordan. When the war broke they were asked if they want to join and they volunteered. http://kaiser-aeronaut.blogspot.com/2008/11/sword-for-hussein.html


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## Biplab Bijay

cb4 said:


> First of all, I'm neither Canadian nor i was born in that country. Frankly, just to give you a surprise, i was in fact born in Saudi Arabia, a country from where Islam originated from and i've lived there for more than a decade. I have lived with arabs and interacted with tribes such as : Tameem, Anazah, and Harb, all of these you've probably never even heard of. If people like Arabs themselves are saying what i'm saying about Ummah, then i'm sorry to say that you and others have been under heavy jimaat e islami influence. LOL, Arabs consider no one but themselves as an Ummah. This is a fact you simply cannot deny.
> 
> Now, let me tell you something about myself, most of my education has been in non-private schools. That being said, i've been around Arabs, British, American, Canadian, Chinese, Japesem koreans, Pakistanis, Indians, Srilankans, Bangladeshis, French, Germans, Italians, Irish, and more.
> 
> My family doesn't have an unlimited amount of money. I am a nothing but an ordinary middle class. This is utterly rude to say this to anyone. No wonder why the world hates you. You are nothing but a jealous ba$tard. Grow up and get some education. This is all i have to say to you.
> 
> I know more about Universities in Pakistan than you because of the fact that i have few family member who are professors, and after all, they are the ones who run it. They were beatern up, threatened, and hacked from rich families and from religious extremist groups to get their basicaly kids in illegally.
> 
> Please now that you have mentioned Karachi University, you might wanna go and change the stats on wikipedia. After all, there will be no one to believe you, as neither its high on world rankings nor it has produced any famous people, and nor it has ever produced any indigenous piece of research.
> 
> I know a person here in Canada that was a vice chancellor at Karachi University. You must be familiar with his name. His name is Dr. Munir... He came back many times here cuz parities like MQM were threatening him.
> 
> Please come by to see universities here. Most of their budget is = to Pakistan's GDP and you will know how hard it is to compete with Asians (Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Taiwanese), and Indians, who are now the only ones dominating in this world and they are the ones that you will see becoming a super power.
> 
> Pakistan is surviving because of us Pakistanis living in the West. We give out billions of dollars each year to you. (according to many reports, Pakistanis living in the West give money back to their homeland the most. We are ranked #1 donators.) Try to thank god everyday that you are still surviving...
> 
> Pakistanis are the worst people i've ever met. My background is Pakistani and I'm saying this to let you know from my experience. No muslim country would want to ally with Pakistan as it is very unstable country.
> There is not a single country that is hoping for a united muslim ummah. Its just what Pakistanis see in their dreams. As i mentioned before, a person's race, culture, and language is what is determined for unity. Arabs and Malay (Malaysians, Indonesians, Vietnamese, etc) have done that well and that are more than happy to live with each other.
> 
> How can Pakistan think of Ummah, when they can't even control their own muslims in the country itself.  This is the truth....
> 
> Every country has some positives. There is not single country out there that is always wrong. It will be great to have good relations with muslim countries but attempting unity will cause only trouble. You should remember that Bangladesh was split because of their culture and their language. While Urdu was being imposed on them, they had decided to go in a different direction.
> 
> You probably have never met a Jew or a Christian. Their religion is very very close to us. They have their own thing like Halal food called 'Kosher', Secondly, most of their prophets are what we have as ours. They all are monotheistic religions. Meaning they truly believe in one god. Last but not the least most importantly, you should know that Islam originated from the footsteps of Judaism, Zoroastrianism, and Christianity. Islam was created to full fill only some of the requirements that god want you to learn and that said so are the 5 pillars of Islam.
> Do any of them disagree on the fact that you shall not kill, steal, rape, stock neighbours, etc ??? The answer is NO. They all want positive things from human beings.
> 
> If a person was born in a Hindu family then why blame he or she. The reality is it is God's decision to put you where ever he decides. God created different ethnics, races, languages, and all various diversities so human beings could be tested to interact and learn about others.
> 
> See this is the problem. You expect to find books in old libraries. The reality is you can find anything, any artifact in any library. This is what libraries are made for dumb a$$. I guess you're probably saying this cuz either you've never even been into one or there isn't a library around where you live. This is why i say education in the West is far better than what is offered in the East. Going to libraries and reading books will help you analyze better. Your system is 'rata' or memorizing. cramming everything at once and looking for an exact answer will never be possible to answer your doubts. Knowledge is the greatest thing God gave us and to use it depends on your nature and the type of education your tought in schools.
> 
> You should appreciate my views because the experience i'm telling you will help Pakistanis realize their mistakes. You probably won't do that but its alright at least others will read this and try to understand for the betterment.


Too much truth is dangerous.


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## Biplab Bijay

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Sending PAF pilots meant something... were we supposed to win it alone?
> 
> 
> Funny you talk ahbt things u dnt know abt... go read the history!
> 
> 
> Does it matter?
> 
> Lol we already have access to china dont we? we sent troops in 42?  smokin some afghan kush are ya? water? we already have it... unless india stops it which would be an act of war.... Kashmiris went against Pakistan? if you had done some homework abt the issue you wouldnt give out such a stupid remark abt it... it was the kashmiris tht first requested 300 guns frm Pakistan when dogras were busy killing,looting n burning villages tht could be seen frm murree.... also do read abt the mass influs of refugees frm IOK...? heck dogras at one place genocided 250K kashmiris!! when they were protesting to merge with Pakistan!
> 
> 
> Do you think US would send its forces for india or russia?LOL ..
> 
> 
> Damn we scared man! everyday ur papers post shyt abt Pak...ur general gives stupid statements abt limited Nwar..2 front war n what not...and who are we? i reckon usa,japan,nato,west or russians would send their soldiers to protect u!... there is no more ussr there for you!
> 
> 
> Sane thing out of all the nonsense in your post to which i agree!


ha ha ha. Those kashmiris have butchered 500 k kashmiri pundits.


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## Biplab Bijay

Xestan said:


> And you "think" that what you "think" is right?
> 
> You're trying to say, All the great scholars of Islam, from the start, till today are FOOLS? Almost whole Islamic world have consensus on the issue and here we have so called intellectuals presenting their own theories, you need to do some research.


Strange.


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## Aamna14

Biplab Bijay said:


> Too much truth is dangerous.



No too much Pakistan bashing by default becomes the truth to many Indians though not all.


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## Biplab Bijay

Aamna14 said:


> No too much Pakistan bashing by default becomes the truth to many Indians though not all.


Yep. I am one of those " not all". But still its dangerous.


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## Aamna14

Biplab Bijay said:


> Yep. I am one of those " not all". But still its dangerous.



You hardly seem like one of those "not all" from you're comment by the way.


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## Biplab Bijay

Aamna14 said:


> You hardly seem like one of those "not all" from you're comment by the way.


That is your opinion. I can do nothing about that.


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## RangerPK

It is not exactly Muslim Ummah, but it is the Ummah of Prophet Muhammad (saw)

During the time when the doors of Prohethood were open, each Prophet had their own Ummah/nation, which they led. Sometimes, there could be two prophets at the same time, with their own respective Ummah.

To be correct, it is not "Muslim Ummah" but its actually, Ummah of Prophet Muhammad (saw).

Now are you gonna deny, the Ummah of Prophet Muhammad does not exist? Or you are not part of it?


Anyways... As for "Muslim brotherhood". In the Quran, if I am not mistaken, is said, when two rival groups become/convert to Muslims, it is God who places "brotherhood" in their hearts for each other. It is a sign of his mercy. He is the most merciful, the most forgiving.


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## RangerPK

kingkobra said:


> which ummah?? ummah is nothing but a dream....muslims have killed more muslims throughout the history...current pakistan and balochistan is best example of it....religion can not unite anyone there will be differences always..




And then we have these Indian retarded dumb asses spamming BS on a Pakistani site, with their ever chronic burning asses on the key board.

Who ever says there is no garbage and pollution on the Internet, hasn't seen Indians....


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## AnnoyingOrange

Desert Fox said:


> To hell with the "ummah", Pakistan Zindabad! Palestine is not our problem, neither is Israel, we share no border or ethnicity with these countries so why should we share the headache of the arabs?
> ---------- Post added at 03:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:36 AM ----------
> 
> What is the name of this show?



Nobel thought my friend.....Each Pakistani has to think of... and work hard towards Pakistan's development... these religion based kitty parties have not done any good to any Nation. 

For Pakistanis... there has to be one meaning of Pakistaniyat: *"Pakistan First"*


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## funtoosh

RangerPK said:


> And then we have these Indian retarded dumb asses spamming BS on a Pakistani site, with their ever chronic burning asses on the key board.
> 
> Who ever says there is no garbage and pollution on the Internet, hasn't seen Indians....


if its a pak site then restrict access to pakistnis only. you want all the eyeballs of indians which is how your money is made. if indians are not ther eon this site, this would die out in a couple pf weeks


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## RangerPK

funtoosh said:


> if its a pak site then restrict access to pakistnis only. you want all the eyeballs of indians which is how your money is made. if indians are not ther eon this site, this would die out in a couple pf weeks




This just proves Indians are seriously retarded. There is an Indian defence site aswell, owned by the same person/people, if you are worried about the finance of the owner so much, then you can "help" him by going to your God damn forum..

Use your own DustbinDefence.in , it would keep the internet clean, the owner happy, and the moderators of PDF would feel less like underpaid janitors.


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## funtoosh

RangerPK said:


> This just proves Indians are seriously retarded. There is an Indian defence site aswell, owned by the same person/people, if you are worried about the finance of the owner so much, then you can "help" him by going to your God damn forum..
> 
> Use your own DustbinDefence.in , it would keep the internet clean, the owner happy, and the moderators of PDF would feel less like underpaid janitors.


 
so you want no indians in this forum?


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## Spring Onion

The word ummah has been exploited too much by anti-Muslim goons and perhaps one of the phobias these people have.

Ummah means one umat that is what all Muslims .
anyway just change the word ummah wit Muslim Strategic Block in the current scenario and work towards it. use your advantages to protect your interests

Every Muslim country that has aligned with a Non-Muslim country for protection of its interests
is coming or will come full circle towards the same desire. Its simple call it West or whatever, the lines have same religious alliances though portrayed as secular

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## funtoosh

Spring Onion said:


> The word ummah has been exploited too much by anti-Muslim goons and perhaps one of the phobias these people have.
> 
> Ummah means one umat that is what all Muslims .
> anyway just change the word ummah wit Muslim Strategic Block in the current scenario and work towards it. use your advantages to protect your interests
> 
> Every Muslim country that has aligned with a Non-Muslim country for protection of its interests
> is coming or will come full circle towards the same desire. Its simple call it West or whatever, the lines have same religious alliances though portrayed as secular


not possible because any federation based on relion is not possible and has been proven so. if a pak1 goes and tells saudi , chal bhai we will take the oil out and sell it, he will be laughed out.
also this religon is flawed as it discriminates non-believers and so there will be a tension between varoius countries. this will work if only every one of you guys join TTP or Afg T'ban.

Lol, if you create ummah, then the rest of the world excluding india and china will be chumma (christan ummah).ummah chummah de de. ummah chumma dede umma.

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## RangerPK

Spring Onion said:


> The word ummah has been exploited too much by anti-Muslim goons and perhaps one of the phobias these people have.
> 
> Ummah means one umat that is what all Muslims .
> anyway just change the word ummah wit Muslim Strategic Block in the current scenario and work towards it. use your advantages to protect your interests
> 
> Every Muslim country that has aligned with a Non-Muslim country for protection of its interests
> is coming or will come full circle towards the same desire. Its simple call it West or whatever, the lines have same religious alliances though portrayed as secular



Well as I said before.... the word Ummah is misconceived. For example, to be clear, its not "Muslim Ummah" Its the "Ummah of the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) When you look at that way, the connotation change, and the term becomes less ambiguous.

There have been not just one Ummah, but multiple Ummahs, when the gates of Prophethood were open, for example, each Prophet came to his "ummah" and lead his "ummah". When we say Muslim Ummah, we are actually talking about "Ummah of Prophet Muhammad" Which is probably the more correct and less vague way to use the term...

When you look at that way, it means, when you say, you belong to Ummah of Prophet Muhammad (saw), it actually points towards the "relation" you have with the Prophet of God.

Ummah of Prophet Muhammad (saw) is not measured by the relation you have with tom, dick and harry, or changa manga and pappu. As I guess is misleadingly believed among some people..


There is no way, you can say, the Ummah of Prophet Muhammad does not exist. It exists, without question. You are among the fortune if God considers you to be among the Ummah of Prophet Muhammad (saw). 

How much fortunate are those people, who on the day of judgement, Prophet Muhammad (SAW) would call them to be among his Ummah.

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## RangerPK

funtoosh said:


> not possible because any federation based on relion is not possible and has been proven so. if a pak1 goes and tells saudi , chal bhai we will take the oil out and sell it, he will be laughed out.
> also this religon is flawed as it discriminates non-believers and so there will be a tension between varoius countries. this will work if only every one of you guys join TTP or Afg T'ban.
> 
> Lol, if you create ummah, then the rest of the world excluding india and china will be chumma (christan ummah).ummah chummah de de. ummah chumma dede umma.




Oh great, an Indian idiot trying to poke his nose in matters where it does not belong. What a rare site to see....I bet his *** is burning on the key board as he types...

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## Spring Onion

funtoosh said:


> not possible because any federation based on relion is not possible and has been proven so. if a pak1 goes and tells saudi , chal bhai we will take the oil out and sell it, he will be laughed out.
> also this religon is flawed as it discriminates non-believers and so there will be a tension between varoius countries. this will work if only every one of you guys join TTP or Afg T'ban.


Its not about sharing wealth.

anyway NVM.



> Lol, if you create ummah, then the rest of the world excluding india and china will be chumma (christan ummah).ummah chummah de de. ummah chumma dede umma.


 
The forum update process has given some space to species like you so NVM again

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## doppelganger

Is Muslim Ummah interchangeably used with another term Muslimmah? I have heard or read it somewhere.

P.S. @Spring Onion Jana ji how is the new look for you? I am not enjoying it frankly. It is cramping my style.

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## Spring Onion

doppelganger said:


> Is Muslim Ummah interchangeably used with another term Muslimmah? I have heard or read it somewhere.


 
Muslimah means female Muslim.



> P.S. @Spring Onion Jana ji how is the new look for you? I am not enjoying it frankly. It is cramping my style.


 I don't like it.

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## Truth Finder

funtoosh said:


> not possible because any federation based on relion is not possible and has been proven so.* if a pak1 goes and tells saudi , chal bhai we will take the oil out and sell it, he will be laughed out.*
> also this religon is flawed as it discriminates non-believers and so there will be a tension between varoius countries. this will work if only every one of you guys join TTP or Afg T'ban.
> 
> Lol, if you create ummah, then the rest of the world excluding india and china will be chumma (christan ummah).ummah chummah de de. ummah chumma dede umma.


The Arab will slap him with his camel chappals.


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## EasyNow

Every Muslim will always have a soft spot for another Muslim. My point is not to confuse having religion in common as meaning that you are one people - which is what some people think the Ummah is.

Bhai-chara exists but leave it at that please. If every Muslim country looked after it's own people properly then we'd all be much better off. 

And to be clear, every Muslim is part of the Ummah whether you agree with them or not - we all have different ideas about how to improve our lot, so please consider if the idea is valid without getting into personal religious bigotry.


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## funtoosh

muslim commonwealth maybe


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## EasyNow

Well why not? We have GCC, EU, SAARC why not UMN...


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## Peaceful Civilian

RangerPK said:


> Oh great, an Indian idiot trying to poke his nose in matters where it does not belong. What a rare site to see....I bet asson the key board as he types...


Personal attack, rant and bad language is sign of losing the argument ... It's no fun being a loser. but people loves to play with a loser... The path of foul language and personal attack is the path of the loser .


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Biplab Bijay said:


> ha ha ha. Those kashmiris have butchered 500 k kashmiri pundits.



Yeah right.

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## Peaceful Civilian

Self delete


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## Biplab Bijay

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Yeah right.


Thanks for admitting.


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## AsianLion

*Muslim Ummah and Islamic Society: Importance of Islamic Unity*







​Ummah is an Arabic word meaning "community" or "nation". In the context of Islam, the word Ummah or Muslim Ummah is used to mean the diaspora or "Community of the Believers" (Ummat al-Mu'minin), and thus the whole Muslim world. The phrase Ummah Wahida (One Community) in Noble Qur'an refers to the entire Islamic world unified. Noble Qur'an says: "You are the best of the nations raised up for (the benefit of) men; you enjoin what is right and forbid the wrong and believe in Allah ..." (3:110)

Islam considers all Muslims to be one Ummah, a community whose basis is faith and common objectives and among all its constituent units, exists a deeper unity which does not allow the differences of region, race, language and nation to disrupt and disintegrate it. Noble Qur'an declares: Surely this community of yours is one community (Ummah), and I am your Lord, therefore serve Me. (21:92)

According to the above verse, Muslims are identified as one Ummah, as parts of which they move towards a common goal, strive to realize their common objectives, worship one and the only God.

In many traditions Muslims are described as one body and different units of the Muslim Ummah are regarded as the organs of a single body. A few of the traditions are quoted here in order to substantiate the point.

Abu Said narrates from Holy Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) that he said, "A believer's relationship to other believers is like that of the different parts of a building, each of which supports the other."

Holy Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said: "A believer with respect to other believers is related like the head is related to the body. A believer feels the pain of other believers as the head feels the pain of the body."

Holy Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said: "One who gets up in the morning and his mind is not preoccupied with the matters of Muslims, is not one of them."

All these traditions lead us to the conclusion that all Muslims are brothers and are like a single body and therefore can never be indifferent towards one another. Among them should prevail the spirit of cooperation, brotherhood, fraternity, good will, love, sympathy and unity of direction and purpose, and they should be always united for the defense of Muslim Ummah.



​Dr. Allama Mohammed Iqbal describe Muslim Ummah and Islamic Society, in the following Urdu couplet:

Qaum Goya Jism Hai Afraad Hain Aazayay Qaum
Manzil-e-Sana't Ki Rah Pe Hain Dasto Payay Qaum
Mahfil Nazm-e-Hukoomat Chahra-e-Zaybayay Qaum
Shair Rangeen Nawa Hai Deeda-e-Beena-e-Qaum
Mubtala-e-Dard Koi Azu Ho Roti Hai Aankh
Kis Qadar Hamdard Saray Jism Ki Hoti Hai Aankh

Community is an organism and individuals are parts of its body
Those engaged in industry are its hands and legs
Those engaged in administration are its face
Poet of myriad sweet melodies is the eye of the nation
The eye weeps for the suffering of any and every part of the body
How sympathetic it is to the entire organism.

"And hold fast, all together, by the rope which Allah (stretches out for you), and be not divided among yourselves." (3:103)

Allah (SWT) makes it clear in Noble Qur'an that unity of the Muslim Ummah is very important. Allah (SWT) tells us not to be divided and to hold tightly to the teachings of Noble Qur'an and the example of Holy Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Unfortunately we Muslims have divided ourselves into different sects. We bicker over petty and trivial issues that hold no meaning and do not benefit Muslim Ummah in any way. Today, if the Muslims look at themselves they will see a group of people separated from one another. This disunity resulted into intellectual decline, perversion, loss of cordial values like sincerity, patience, tolerance, self-sacrifice. Owing to mutual disharmony, Muslim Countries were subjugated one after another by the enemies. Consequently, the Ummah at large is surrounded by problems and worries at present.

As we see from the above mentioned traditions of Holy Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) that the believers are like parts of the body in relation to each other in matters of kindness, love and affection. When one part of the body is afflicted, the entire body feels it, there is loss of sleep and a fever develops.

How can we support each other if we are not united? How can we love each other like brothers and sisters in Islam, if we hold misconceptions about each other in our hearts?

The answer is simple: We, as the Muslim Ummah, have to overcome the minor and irrelevant differences that separate us. If we are able to do that we will notice that all Muslims believe in the same things: Tauheed [Oneness of Allah (SWT)], all the Prophets (peace be upon them all), all the holy Books, all of Allah's angels and the day of judgement (Qayamat). Not to mention that every Muslim tries to follow Noble Qur'an and Holy Prophet Muhammad's Sunnah and teaching.

Muslims should understand that unity is what will make us move forward in this world as well hereafter. Today the Muslim Ummah is behind in everything, Education, technology, trade and most importantly our faith. Non-Muslims may not believe in our faith but their unity has made them come very far. Remember the era when the Muslims were united and held on to Allah's rope tightly? The Islamic empire spread from the east to west and Allah (SWT) blessed them with wealth, fame, victory and honor. Muslims need to be united now more than ever before. We have to think about what we will and we can do to make our lives in this world and the hereafter better and blessed. Let's take a look at the following moral stories to understand the importance of Islamic Unity as one Muslim Ummah.





*Tailor's Needle:* Simple moral story to understand Muslim Ummah and Islamic Society






​A tailor was at work. He took a piece of cloth and with a pair of shining, costly, scissors; he cut the cloth into various bits.

Then he put the pair of scissors at his feet. Then he took a small needle and thread and started to sew the bits of cloth, into a fine shirt. When the spell of sewing was over, he stuck the needle on to his turban.

The tailor's son who was watching it asked him: "Father, the scissors are costly and look so beautiful. But you throw them down at your feet. This needle is worth almost nothing; you can get dime a dozen. Yet, you place it carefully on your head itself. Is there any reason for this illogical behaviour?"

"Yes, my son. The scissors have their function, no doubt; but they only cut the cloth into bits. The needle, on the contrary, unites the bits and enhances the value of the cloth. Therefore, the needle to me is more precious and valuable. The value of a thing depends on its utility, son, not on its cost-price or appearance."

Similarly, there are two classes of people in the world-those who create dissensions and disharmony, who separate man from man; and those who bring about peace and harmony, who unite people.

The former are generally the rich people, powerful politicians and kings; the latter are generally the poor devotees of Allah (SWT), the penniless wandering monks, and mendicants. The Lord makes use of both to carry on his function of providing the field for the evolution of individual souls. He throws down on the dust the mighty kings and millionaires who create wars and disharmony; and He keeps the poor, pious devotee over the top. In His eyes the scale of values is entirely different!

*Muslim Ummah and Islamic Society: Purpose and Duties*

Understand and fulfill the responsibilities and duties that fall upon you by virtue of your being Muslims. You cannot get away with merely affirming that you are Muslims and that you have accepted Allah (SWT) as your only God and Islam as your religion. Rather, as soon as you acknowledge Allah (SWT) as your only Lord and His guidance as your way of life, you take upon yourselves certain obligations and duties. These obligations you must always remain conscious of, these duties you must always endeavour to discharge. If you evade them, you shall not escape the undesirable consequences of your conduct in this world as well as in the Hereafter.

As Muslim, duties are not merely confined to the affirmation of faith in Allah (SWT) as one and just, His Angels, His Books, His Messengers and Imams, Qayamat and the Day of Judgement. Nor are they confined to performing daily Prayers, observing the Fasts, going on Hajj Pilgrimage and paying the Alms. Nor are these duties exhausted by observing the injunctions of Islam relating to marriage, divorce and inheritance. Over and above all these duties, we should realize that working toward unity of the Muslim Ummah is also our responsibility which should be collective work that needs all our efforts. Yes, it needs all our effort without any exception starting from purifying our selves and our communities from all those problems that cause division and disunity. We should realize the dangers of disunity in our communities, because division and disunity will weaken the Muslim Ummah and open the door to our enemies, which lead to the total destruction.





*Muslim Ummah and Muslim Society: United we stand, Divided we fall*




A father had a family of sons who were perpetually quarreling among themselves. When he failed to heal their disputes by his exhortations, he determined to give them a practical illustration of the evils of disunion; and for this purpose he one day told them to bring him a bundle of sticks tied with twine, and said to his oldest son: "Break it in pieces."

Oldest son tried and tried, but with all his strength, he could not break the bundle.

The other sons also tried, but none of them was successful.

"Untie the bundle," said the father, "and each of you take one stick."

When they had done so, he said to them: "Now, try to break your stick." Each stick was easily broken. "You see my meaning," said their father.

He then addressed them in these words: "My sons, if you are of one mind, and unite to assist each other, you will be as this bundle of sticks, uninjured by all the attempts of your enemies; but if you are divided among yourselves, you will be broken as easily as these single sticks."

*Moral of the Story*: "United we stand, Divided we fall," the basic concept is that unless the people are united, it is easy to destroy them.

*Dr. Allama Mohammed Iqbal and Muslim Unity*

Hawas Ne Tukre Tukre Kar Diya Hai Na'u Insan Ku
Ukhuwwat Ka Bayan Ho Ja Mohabbat Ki Zaban Ho Ja
Ye Hindi, Wo Khurasani, Ye Afghani, Wo Turani
Tu Ay Sharmindayeh Sahil Uchhal Kar Bekaraan Ho Ja

Yun Tu Syed Bhi Ho, Mirza Bhi Ho, Afghan Bhi Ho
Tum Sabhi Kuch Ho, Batao Tu Musalman Bhi Ho?

Jo Karega Imtiyaz Rang o Khoon Mit Jayega
Turk Kharghai Ho Ya Arabi Wala Gohr

Ek Houn Muslim Haram Ki Pasbani Ke Liye
Neel Kay Saahil Se Lay Kar Ta Ba Khak Kashghir

Shajar Hai Firqa Arayee, Ta'assub Hai Samar Iska
Ye Wo Phal Hai Jo Jannat Se Nikalwata Hai Adam Ku

Firqa Bandi Hai Kaheen Aur Kaheen Zatein Hain
Kya Zamane Mein Panapne Ki Yahee Batein Hain?

Zaban Se Kah Bhi Diya La Ilaha Illah To Kya Hasil?
Dil-o-Nigah Musalman Naheen To Kuchh Bhi Naheen

Zaban Se Gar Kiya Tauheed Ka Da'wa To Kya Hasil?
Banaya Hay Bute Pindaar Ku Apna Khuda Tu Ne

Khuda Ne Aaj Tak Us Qaum Ki Haalat Naheen Badlee
Na Ho Jisko Khyal Aap Apni Haalat Ke Badalne Ka

Wahi Derina Bimari Wahi Namuhkami Dil Ki
Ilaj Iska Wahi Aabe Nishat Angez Hay Saaqi

Dil-e-Murda Dil Naheen Hay Ise Zinda Kar Dobara
Ke Yahee Hay Ummaton Ke Marge Kuhan Ka Chara

Manf-e-at Ek Hai Is Qaum Ki Nuqsaan Bhi Ek
Ek Hi Sab Ka Nabi Deen Bhi Iman Bhi Ek
Haram-e-Paak Bhi Allah Bhi Quran Bhi Ek
Kuchh Bari Baat Thi Hote Jo Musalman Bhi Ek

*Muslim Ummah and Islamic Society: The Lost Message* (Story of the Ants)




From time immemorial, Ants have had many enemies.

There were some who thought it would be wise to hold council together to see if they could come to some arrangement whereby they could live without being attacked by other animals.

At the council meeting, there were Red Ants, Rice Ants, Black Ants, Wagtail Ants, Gray Ants, Shining Ants and many other varieties.

The discussion continued for a long time, but they could not agree.

Some desired that they should all live in a small hole in the ground. Others wanted to build on the ground, where nobody could enter but Ants.

Still some wanted to dwell in Trees so as to get rid of Anteaters, forgetting entirely that there they would be the prey of Birds.

Each party resolved to go to work in its own way, with its own responsibilities.

Each group had an appointed task, and each member of the group worked regularly and well.

But unity of all the Ants could not be seen anywhere in the world.

The ants chose a King from among them. They divided the labor so that all went as smoothly as it possibly could.

But each group did it in its own way and not one of them thought of protecting themselves against the onslaught of birds or Anteaters.

The Red Ants built their house on the ground and lived under it, but Anteaters flattened their home in a minute after days of precious labor.

The Rice Ants lived under the ground and with them it went no better. For whenever they came out, Anteaters were waiting.

The Wagtail Ants fled to the Trees, but on many occasions Centipedes sat waiting for them, or the birds gobbled them up.

The gray Ants had intended to save themselves from extermination by taking to flight, but lizards, hunting Spiders and birds flew a great deal faster than they did.

When the Ant King heard that the different groups of animals could come to no agreement, he sent them the secret of Unity and the message of working together.

Until this day, they have not understood the message of unity and working together between each group and each species.

"O Naml! Enter your houses, (that) Suleiman and his hosts may not crush you while they do not know" (27:18)

*Unity is Strength and Division is Weakness* (Strength lies in unity and weakness in division)




Once upon a time, there was a flock of doves that flew in search of food led by their king. One day, they had flown a long distance and were very tired. The dove king encouraged them to fly a little further. The smallest dove picked up speed and found some rice scattered beneath a banyan tree. So all the doves landed and began to eat.

Suddenly a net fell over them and they were all trapped. They saw a hunter approaching carrying a huge club. The doves desperately fluttered their wings trying to get out, but to no avail.

The king had an idea. He advised all the doves to fly up together carrying the net with them. He said that there was strength in unity.

Each dove picked up a portion of the net and together they flew off carrying the net with them. The hunter looked up in astonishment. He tried to follow them, but they were flying high over hills and valleys. They flew to a hill near a city of temples where there lived a mouse who could help them. He was a faithful friend of the dove king.

When the mouse heard the loud noise of their approach, he went into hiding. The dove king gently called out to him and then the mouse was happy to see him. The dove king explained that they had been caught in a trap and needed the mouse's help to gnaw at the net with his teeth and set them free.

The mouse agreed saying that he would set the king free first. The king insisted that he first free his subjects and the king last. The mouse understood the king's feelings and compled with his wishes. He began to cut the net and one by one all the doves were freed including the dove king.

They all thanked the mouse and flew away together, united in their strength.

*Moral of the Story: Strength lies in unity and weakness in division.*

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