# Operation Moshtarak Thread: Afghan flag hoisted over Marjah



## fawwaxs

By Anwar Iqbal
Monday, 08 Feb, 2010 

WASHINGTON: US and Nato forces are set to launch in southern Afghanistan this week a major offensive being described as the biggest assault of its kind since Vietnam four decades ago.

Our basic strategy is, is to reverse the momentum of the Taliban; to deny them control of population centres and production centres, said US Defence Secretary Robert Gates.

A strike force of 15,000 US, British and Afghan troops will participate in this offensive in the Helmand province, aided by the biggest air assault since the first Gulf War of 1991.

US officials, while reluctant to endorse the medias exaggeration, did acknowledge that it would be the largest offensive in the eight-year Afghan war.

The offensive, which includes a series of raids into the most dangerous areas of central Helmand, may begin within a week, although US and Nato officials are refusing to give a date.

Thats as specific as Id want to be. But its going to be relatively soon, says Gen Stanley McChrystal, who commands US and Nato forces in Afghanistan.

A transcript released by the Pentagon this weekend, also quoted Secretary Gates as saying that they want to degrade the militants capabilities to the point where a larger and better-trained Afghan national security force can manage the Taliban threat on a domestic basis and so that the security presence (of the international forces) can begin to diminish.

In Britain, military officials have warned the public to steel itself for large numbers of casualties in this offensive named Operation Moshtarak.

Meanwhile, media reports from Afghanistan say that hundreds of civilians have begun fleeing the area before the anticipated Nato offensive.

Nato helicopters have dropped leaflets in and around Marja, warning people of the impending assault.

Were trying to signal to the Afghan people that we are expanding security where they live. We are trying also to signal to the insurgents, the Taliban primarily in this area and the narco-traffickers, that its about to change, said Gen McChrystal.

If they want to fight, then obviously that will have to be an outcome. But if they dont want to fight, thats fine too. If they want to reintegrate into the government  were not interested in how many Taliban we kill.


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## pkd

US Army closes in on targeted southern Afghan town

NEAR LASHKAR GAH, Afghanistan  U.S. Army soldiers launched a preliminary operation Tuesday in support of a planned U.S.-Afghan attack on the largest Taliban-controlled town in southern Afghanistan.

NATO and Afghan officials, meanwhile, urged militants holding Marjah, where an offensive is expected, to lay down their arms and warned civilians there to "keep your heads down."

About 400 U.S. troops from the 5th Stryker Brigade as well as 250 Afghan soldiers and their 30 Canadian trainers moved into positions northeast of the town.

No casualties were reported. Large plumes of smoke could be seen in the area, and reporters traveling with the U.S. unit could hear the distant rattle of 50-caliber machine gun fire and detonations from MK-19s, which fire 40 millimeter grenades from Stryker vehicles.

U.S. officials have not said when the main attack on the town of some 80,000 people will take place but have nonetheless heavily publicized plans to attack, causing hundreds of people to flee the opium-producing center in advance of the fighting.

On Tuesday, however, Taliban militants prevented townspeople from leaving Marjah, as families huddled inside their homes, witnesses said.

The offensive will be the first major one since President Barack Obama announced he was sending 30,000 reinforcements to Afghanistan.

Villager Mohammad Hakim gambled that he could wait until the last minute because he was worried about abandoning his cotton fields.

He finally tried to move his wife, nine sons, four daughters and grandchildren out of Marjah earlier Tuesday but said militants told him to return home because they had mined the surrounding roads.

"All of the people are very scared," he said in a telephone interview. "Our village is like a ghost town. The people are staying in their homes."

NATO and Afghan officials have insisted their primary goal is to gain public confidence and promised to follow the military action with projects aimed at restoring government control and services in the area.

"The success of the operation will not be in the military phase," NATO's civilian chief in Afghanistan, former British Ambassador Mark Sedwill, said Tuesday.

"It will be over the next weeks and months as the people ... feel the benefits of better governance, of economic opportunities and of operating under the legitimate authorities of Afghanistan," he told reporters in a briefing at NATO headquarters in Kabul.

International officials believe the insurgency has been able to capitalize on widespread public anger over President Hamid Karzai's corruption-ridden government and failure to provide services after more than eight years of war.

Two NATO service members were killed Tuesday in separate attacks, including an American who died in a bombing in the south.

A French soldier also was killed during a gunfight after insurgents attacked an Afghan army convoy being escorted by French troops in the eastern Kapisa province, according to French President Nicolas Sarkozy's office.

The governor of Helmand province said it was unusual but necessary to broadcast the plans for the offensive "to make the people aware that we are coming, that the purpose of this is to work for them, not just to conduct a military operation."

Authorities have not advised Marjah residents to leave but have warned them to stay inside and avoid road travel once the operation begins. 

Gov. Gulab Mangal said a commission was ready to handle the flow of refugees and any other fallout from the military action. 

Mangal said at least 164 families had left Marjah. Afghan families have an average of six members, according to private relief groups. 

"The commission is fully prepared. We have got tents. We've got food. We've got everything in place," he said at the joint press conference with Sedwill, declining to give specific numbers. 

Sedwill said the main question was whether Taliban militants in the area could be persuaded to join a government-promoted reintegration process. 

"The message to them is accept it," he said. "The message to the people of the area is of course keep your heads down, stay inside when the operation is going ahead." 

Mangal also said the government had received preliminary indications that some local Taliban were ready to renounce al-Qaida and join the government's reintegration process. 

"I'm confident that there are a number of Taliban members who will reconcile with us and who will be under the sovereignty of the Afghan government," he said. 

Interior Minister Hanif Atmar also unveiled a pilot model policing program in Kandahar that will get help from American and Canadian police trainers. 

With Kandahar a key stronghold for the Taliban, he said enemy infiltration and overall corruption are among his top concerns. 

"We're looking at different measures to counter these two problems," he said. 

The program will focus on training, strengthening and equipping Afghan police to work within their local communities. If successful, he said the ministry has plans to expand the program to other big cities and provinces in Afghanistan over the next five years. 

Canadian Ambassador William Crosbie called the policing strategy "a priority focus for Canada because credible, professional Afghan police is key to fostering security." 

A U.S. Predator drone also crashed upon takeoff in eastern Afghanistan Tuesday, but the Air Force said it was not caused by hostile fire and no casualties or damage were reported. 

___ 

Gamel reported from Kabul. Associated Press writers Noor Khan in Kandahar and Amir Shah in Kabul also contributed to this report.
US Army closes in on targeted southern Afghan town - Yahoo! News


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## Thomas

pkd said:


> On Tuesday, however, Taliban militants prevented townspeople from leaving Marjah, as families huddled inside their homes, witnesses said.



Another example for all you good Taliban lovers. Using The villagers as human shields. Perhaps the Taliban view them as ISAF sympathizers?


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

interesting ...80,000 is alot of civilians


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## MZUBAIR

Look at *High Mobility Multipurpose Wheeled Vehicles* on trucks


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## no_name

I don't think it's a good idea to publicise every operation yet to be undertaken.

Secrecy and surprise is important.


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## S-2

The largest operation of the war involving up to 15,000 U.S. Marines, Army and Navy SEALs, British Army and SAS, Canadian advisors, Afghan National Army units and others (to include DEA) has commenced.

There's an interesting series of blogs that will be following the battle from the Institute For The Study Of War. I encourage those having an interest to review the first installment. 

It's a fresh and well-footnoted backgrounder to the A.O. as well as preliminary operations conducted by British and American forces to prepare the battlefield. It highlights some of the anticipated difficulties associated with engineering operations as well as internally-displaced persons (IDPs).

I'd also encourage those interested to match the graphics maps against a GOOGLE-EARTH satelliate scan. The terrain has been well-mapped by Google-Earth and you can see the roads (and cars btw), canals, crossings, and structures through the area-

Operation Moshtarak Backgrounder

Thanks.

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## pkd

All discussions related to Operation Moshtarak here.


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## pkd

*Assault on Taliban in Helmand*



US led NATO troops launched an offensive today against the Taliban's last big stronghold in Afghanistan's Helmand province, a test of President Barack Obama's troop surge strategy. Wave after wave of helicopters landed across central Helmand marking the start of the major offensive that aims to finally defeat the insurgency. Two hours before dawn the first Chinooks swept low over the Taliban district capital of Showal disgorging a force of British, Afghan and French troops signalling D-Day, the start of Operation Moshtarak. 
The aircraft swept into landing zone Pegasus at 4am local time with three Chinooks packed with British, Afghan and French soldiers. The landings marked the start of the offensive involving 15,000 American, British and Afghan troops in the Marjah and Nad-e-Ali areas.
Hours before midnight the Afghan leader President Hamid Karzai gave his personal approval for the operation to go ahead. It had been delayed for 24 hours as Afghan officials entered last minute negotiations to broker a deal with power-brokers in the area to get the Taliban to lay down their arms.
Brigadier James Cowan, the commander of 11 Light Brigade, in an eve of battle speech told his men they were embarking on an operation that will clear the Taliban from its safe havens in central Helmand.
Where we go, we will stay. Where we stay, we will build, he told to the troops in Camp Bastion.
The next few days will not be without danger.
Hold your fire if there is risk to the innocent, even if this puts you in greater danger. For those who will not shake our hand they will find it closed into a fist. They will be defeated.
I wish you Godspeed and the best of luck.
Landing in the cold, dark night into a ploughed field the soldiers of the 1st Bn The Royal Welsh slogged their way through clinging mud to assault the compounds.
The men picked their way cautiously across the ground constantly checking for the ever-present threat of hidden bombs. Accompanied by Afghan commandos they seized several compounds. A few minutes after the initial wave other troops from A Company flew into landing zone Varsity to surround another village.
The airborne attack marked the biggest air assault since the first Gulf War in 1991.
Hours before the landings a special forces raid targeted Taliban redoubts that overlooked helicopter landing sites.
The fleet of helicopters included 11 Chinooks, four American Blackhawks, eight Apache attack helicopters, three Merlin and four Griffin helicopter gunships.
In a pre-operational briefing troops were told that if one aircraft went down it would not mean mission abort but that they should be prepared to quickly rejig the planning.
British, American and Afghan ground forces also crossed over the Taliban front line pushing the enemy back from areas that they have held for years. The operation dwarfs the Panthers Claw assault in the Babaji area last summer in which 10 British soldiers were killed.
Other troops from the Royal Welsh were landed across the area a third the size of the Isle of Wight, some by Canadian Chinooks guarded by Griffin helicopter gunships.
Within two hours the entire assault force was set down across six different landing zones in the northern Nad-e-Ali area referred to as the Cat Triangle that contains a population of 40,000.
It is estimated the enemy strength, which at its highest point reach 300 fighters, may have shrunk to less than 100 with a number melting away from the area before the attack began.
The northern Nad-a-Ali sector, which is being secured by the Royal Welsh battle group, has been under the thrall of the Taliban for several years with the local population suffering intimidation and violence. Schools have been closed and the infrastructure has suffered in the district where the insurgents have set up a shadow government. But more importantly the area is vital to the Talibans income as poppies are widely grown for opium and heroin use.
While corruption is rife in the Afghan government it is hoped that local farmers will be persuaded to grow alternative crops denying the insurgents of the poppy income that sustains their operations.
The central Helmand area is seen as key in winning the counter-insurgency battle in the province as it contains three-quarters of the population and much of the agricultural land.
For weeks the local population has been warned of the impending attack by radio broadcasts and leafleting campaign and have been told to remain in their homes during combat operations.
In Showal A Company plan to push their way up through the town street by street until they seize the bazaar area where Taliban forces are entrenched.
A key iconic moment will come when the joint British and Afghan force removes the white Taliban flag that has been flying from a crane overlooking the town for several years.
We are expecting the Taliban to say to themselves that we are going to get malleted here and will decide to live another day, said Major Shon Hackney, A Companys commander, before the operation launched. We want to go in without firing a shot if we can but we are also prepared for hard fighting.
The task force is supported by artillery firepower from all points of the compass. From Camp Bastion, 15 miles away to the north, highly accurate 250lb missiles from the Guided Multi Launch Rocket System are on hand alongside Paladin 155mm American heavy guns at another base.
To the south the 105mm light guns of the 1 Regiment, Royal Horse Artillery are poised to fire and from all directions there are 81mm mortars at various patrol bases on hand.
An armada of bombers overhead include RAF Tornado GR4s, American A10 Warthog and Dutch F16s. In addition armed Predator drones and other unmanned vehicles patrol the skies.
In the coming days the force will carry out super hot stabilisation in which they will identify reconstruction projects such as refurbishing mosques or repairing roads to win the support of the locals.
For the first time Helmand will have enough troops  what commanders call force density  to contain the insurgency, with an average of one soldier per 25 head of population.
The operation has the full support of President Hamid Karzai who has been personally briefed by the British general in overall command of the operation, Major General Nick Carter.
Lt Col Nick Lock, commanding officer of the Royal Welsh battle group, said: We are making a big leap forward here. Critical to this has been getting everyone on the ground safely as it is clearly a dangerous part of the world.
My gut feeling is that the Taliban will not put up a fight but if they do then we have enough resources to remove them by force. After the area has been secured materials to build a number of patrol bases and checkpoints will be brought in to allow the British and Afghan police and army to tighten their grip on the area as it is expected the Taliban will counter-attack with a guerrilla campaign.
Moshtarak means together in Dari and for the first time ISAF troops will be working shoulder-to-shoulder with equal numbers of Afghan security forces.
If the operation is a success it will endorse the new counter-insurgency approach of Gen Stanley McChrystal who has insisted on Afghans taking a lead role and for the Kabul government to endorse the operation.
The way to defeat the Taliban is to show the people that they are better off being with the government of Afghanistan than they are with what the Taliban have to offer, Major Gen Carter said. 
A list of combined forces in southern Afghan assault
A combined Afghan and international force Saturday launched an assault on a Taliban-held region of southern Afghanistan.
NATO said the force totalled 15,000 for Operation Mushtarak, meaning "together" in Dari, aimed at re-establishing Afghan sovereignty over an area controlled for years by insurgents and drug traffickers.
The participants in the operation, according to NATO, are as follows:
Approximately five brigades of Afghan forces, including members of the Afghan National Army, Afghan National Police, Afghan Border Police and Afghan Gendarmerie (formerly Afghan National Civil Order Police).
ISAF Regional Command (South) elements, with forces drawn from the US, Britain, Denmark, Estonia and Canada.
These elements include:
1st Battalion, 3rd Marines (US)
1st Battalion, 6th Marines (US)
3rd Battalion, 6th Marines (US)
4th Battalion, 23rd IN Stryker (US)
Combat Engineer Battalion (US)
Light Armoured Reconnaissance Regiment (US)
1 Coldstream Guards Battle Group (UK)
1 Grenadier Guards Battle Group (UK)
1 Royal Welsh Battle Group (UK)
Helmand Provincial Reconstruction Team (UK)
Operational Mentor and Liaison Team (UK)
Task Force Pegasus
Task Force Kandahar


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## brahmastra

Helicopter-borne U.S. Marines and Afghan troops swooped down on the Taliban-held town of Marjah before dawn Saturday, launching a long-expected attack to re-establish government control and undermine support for militants in their southern heartland.

The assault on Marjah is the biggest offensive since the 2001 U.S.-led invasion of Afghanistan and will serve as a major test of a new NATO strategy focusing on protecting civilians. The attack is also the first major combat operation since President Barack Obama ordered 30,000 U.S. reinforcements here in December to try to turn the tide of the war.

To the north of Marjah, British, American and Canadian forces struck elsewhere in the Nad Ali district in a push to break Taliban power in Helmand province, one of the major battlefields of the war.

Marine commanders say they *expect between 400 to 1,000 insurgents *&#8212; including *more than 100 foreign fighters* &#8212; to be holed up in Marjah, a town of 80,000 people in Helmand province. *Marjah is the biggest southern town under Taliban control and the linchpin of the militants&#8217; logistical and opium-smuggling network.*

&#8220;The first wave of choppers has landed inside Marjah. The operation has begun,&#8221; said Capt. Joshua Winfrey, commander of Lima Company, 3rd Battalion, 6th Marines, which was at the forefront of the attack.

Several hundred U.S. Marines and some Afghan troops were in the first wave, flying over minefields the militants are believed to have planted around the town, 610 kilometres southwest of Kabul.

The operation, codenamed &#8220;Moshtarak,&#8221; or Together, was described as the biggest joint operation of the Afghan war. Maj. Gen. Nick Carter, commander of NATO forces in southern Afghanistan, says 15,000 troops were involved, including some 7,500 troops fighting in Marjah.

The helicopter assault was preceded by illumination flares fired over the town about 2 a.m. In the pitch darkness of a moonless night, the roar of helicopters could be heard overhead, flying in assault troops from multiple locations.

*The white flash of Hellfire and Tow missiles could be seen exploding over the town as flares illuminated the darkness to help assault troops spot targets*.

Once the town is secured, NATO hopes to rush in aid and restore public services in a bid to win support among the estimated 125,000 people who live in Marjah and surrounding villages. The Afghans&#8217; ability to restore those services is crucial to the success of the operation and to prevent the Taliban from returning.

*Tribal elders have pleaded for NATO to finish the operation quickly and spare civilians *&#8212; an appeal that offers some hope the townspeople will cooperate with Afghan and international forces once the Taliban are gone.

*At the Pentagon, a senior U.S. official said Afghan President Hamid Karzai had signed off on the attack.*

Another defence official said Mr. Karzai was informed of planning for the operation well in advance. The official said it marked a first in terms of both sharing information prior to the attack and planning collaboration with the Afghan government.

Both officials spoke on condition of anonymity because there were not authorized to speak publicly.

The second official said the number of Afghan security forces in the district have roughly doubled since Mr. Obama&#8217;s first infusion of some 10,000 Marines in southern Afghanistan last year.

The Marjah offensive involves close combat in extremely difficult terrain, that official said. A close grid of wide canals dug by the United States as an aid project decades ago make the territory a particularly rich agricultural prize but complicate the advance of U.S. forces.

On the eve of the attack, cars and trucks jammed the main road out of Marjah on Friday as hundreds of civilians defied militant orders and fled the area. For weeks, U.S. commanders had signalled their intention to attack Marjah in hopes that civilians would seek shelter.

*Residents told The Associated Press by telephone this week that Taliban fighters were preventing them from leaving, warning the roads were planted with land mines to slow the NATO advance.*

Still, many people fled anyway for the provincial capital of Lashkar Gah, 30 kilometres to the northeast. They told journalists they had to leave quickly and secretly to avoid recrimination from Taliban commanders.

Some said they slipped out of town when Taliban commanders weren&#8217;t watching.

&#8220;We were not allowed to come here. We haven&#8217;t brought any of our belongings. We just tried to get ourselves out,&#8221; said Bibi Gul, an elderly woman in a black headscarf who arrived in nearby Lashkar Gah with three of her sons. She left three more sons behind in Marjah.

Police searched vehicles for any signs of militants, in one case prodding bales of cotton with a metal rod in search of hidden weapons.

&#8220;They don&#8217;t allow families to leave,&#8221; Marjah resident Qari Mohammad Nabi said of the Taliban. &#8220;The families can only leave the village when they are not seen leaving.&#8221;

Provincial spokesman Daoud Ahmadi said about 450 families &#8212; an estimated 2,700 people &#8212; had already sought refuge in Lashkar Gah. Most moved in with relatives but more than 100 were being sheltered by the government, he said.

Ahmadi said the local government was prepared to shelter 7,000 families in nearby towns, providing them with food, blankets and dishes.

*In advance of the attack, Afghan officials urged community leaders in Marjah to use their influence to persuade the Taliban to lay down their weapons and avoid a bloodbath. *In return, the officials promised to improve the lives of the people there.

During a meeting Thursday, Helmand&#8217;s governor, Gulab Mangal, urged tribal elders from the town to &#8220;use any avenue you have, direct or indirect, to tell the Taliban who don&#8217;t want to fight, that they can join with us,&#8221; according to the chief of Helmand&#8217;s provincial council, Mohammad Anwar Khan.

For their part, the elders begged for limited use of airstrikes because of the risk of civilian deaths, Khan said Friday.

Another of the elders at the meeting, Mohammad Karim Khan, said he would not dare approach the Taliban and tell them to give up their guns to the government.

&#8220;We can&#8217;t talk to the Taliban. We are farmers and poor people and we are not involved in these things like the politicians are,&#8221; said Khan, who is not related to the provincial council chief.

The Hindu : News / International : NATO launches attack on Afghan&rsquo;s Marjah


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## S-2

We've already a thread just below in this section on Marjah. You should try to assure that existing topics close to yours aren't already started.

Thanks.


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## brahmastra

S-2 said:


> We've already a thread just below in this section on Marjah. You should try to assure that existing topics close to yours aren't already started.
> 
> Thanks.



sorry, my bad.

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## Sino-PakFriendship

Hope both USA/NATO and Taliban die together!

USA/NATO and Taliban = Enemy of World Peace!


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## Bill Longley

ISAF and Afghan forces have started Operation Mushtrik in regeons of Majrja and Nad e Ali in Helmand Province.
They are clearly coping Pakistani model of counter insurgency as used in Operation Rah e Nijat and Rahe e Rast.
Time was given to civilians to vacate the areas to control colletral damage.

6 or 7 months back operation Khanjer was conducted in same province in which 9000 troops mainly British and American and Afghan took Part. But nothing well mentioning was achieved.

this time nearly 15000 troops are taking part in Operation code named as Mushtrik.

majority of civilians have left the area and there are reports Taliban are also well dug in.
According to reports , like Operation Rah e Nijat majority of troops are heli lifted and dropped in combat zone .

Taliban is a liquid force and it is expected that they will give way easily. but will it be a victory for ISAF?
as an Afghan Proverb goes " YOU MAY HAVE THE WATCHES BUT WE HAVE THE TIME"

to eliminate this , Afghan Police is with the forces who will take charge of controlled area.
but do Afghan Police have capability or will they be able to control Talibs and maintain law an order?

Will it be a one more example of waste of resources and men by ISAF?

I personally belive US want to negociate on equal grounds and thats why It will try to cut wings of Taliban so that they accept few NATO/ US bases in Afghanistan when US/ISAF Withdraws.
Actual war is not against terror , its for central Asia, the great Game.
what is the assesment of members

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## s90




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## S-2

Latest from NYT-

Coalition Begins Major Offensive-NYT Feb. 13, 2010

In The Cold Of Morning, Descending Into Conflict-NYT Feb. 12, 2010

Afghan Offensive New War Model-NYT Feb. 12, 2010

There's been a lot of discussion about the virtues of prior warning to the militants. 

First, the model for such is the Pakistani Army offensive in S. Waziristan. If one recalls, while the offensive didn't really start before late September, the talk of such was clear literally from the time the SWAT/Buner operations began to wind down in mid-June. With such, many IDPs took advantage of the warning and vacated SWA. 

Second, it has had a marginal effect in de-populating the area. Only about 5% of the Marjah population is estimated to have left. The primary cause for that is believed to be the tremendous mining of the area. Nearly all comments by locals allude to the vast number of mines that the taliban have planted. It's simply too difficult to leave central Marjah.

Third, a number of fighters have left. Most notably the Afghan taliban District governor who was captured in a vehicle heading south through Kandahar last week. He's also believed to be the senior military commander in the area.

It'll be interesting to see what comes of this operation although troops have been in contact all day.

Thanks.

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## pkd

Three US soldiers die as massive Afghan assault begins: NATO 
Updated at: 1545 PST, Saturday, February 13, 2010 
KABUL: Three US soldiers died Saturday in an improvised bomb attack in southern Afghanistan, NATO said, as thousands of American troops led an assault on an insurgent stronghold in the region. 

A brief statement from NATO's International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) did not make it clear if the deaths were during the assault on Marjah, in the south's Helmand province, or a reported suicide bomb attack in neighbouring Kandahar. 

"Three ISAF service members from the United States died following an IED strike in southern Afghanistan today," it said, referring to improvised explosive devices, the Taliban's main weapon. 

The deaths bring to 69 the total number of foreign soldiers to die in Afghanistan so far this year, according to a French news agency tally based on that kept by the icasualties.org website, following a record 520 for 2009. 

The vast majority have been killed by IEDs, which are planted by roadsides, can be detonated from up to two kilometres (one mile) away and pack up to 2,000 pounds of explosives, experts have said. 
Three US soldiers die as massive Afghan assault begins: NATO


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## Metallic

*US, Afghan troops sweep into Taliban stronghold*
*13 FEBRUARY 2010*

MARJAH, Afghanistan &#8211; Thousands of U.S. Marines and Afghan soldiers stormed the Taliban stronghold of Marjah by air and ground Saturday, meeting only scattered resistance but facing a daunting thicket of bombs and booby traps that slowed the allied advance through the town.

The massive offensive was aimed at establishing Afghan government authority over the biggest southern town under militant control and breaking the Taliban grip over a wide area of their southern heartland.

Maj. Gen. Nick Carter, NATO commander of forces in southern Afghanistan, said Afghan and coalition troops, aided by 60 helicopters, made a "successful insertion" into Marjah in southern Helmand province. He said the operation was going "without a hitch."

Thousands of British, U.S. and Canadian troops also swept into Taliban areas to the north of Marjah, seeking to clear a wide swath of villages that had been under Taliban control for several years.

No coalition casualties had been reported more than 12 hours after the initial airborne assault, but NATO said three U.S. soldiers were killed Saturday in a bombing elsewhere in southern Afghanistan.

At least 20 insurgents were reported killed in the Helmand operation, said Gen. Sher Mohammad Zazai, the commander of Afghan forces in the region. Troops have recovered Kalashnikov rifles, heavy machine guns and grenades from 11 insurgents captured so far.

The few civilians who ventured out to talk to the Marines said teams of Taliban fighters were falling back deeper into the town, perhaps to try to regroup and mount harassment attacks to prevent the government from rushing in aid and public services &#8212; a key step in the operation.

The long-awaited assault on Marjah is the biggest offensive since the 2001 U.S.-led invasion of Afghanistan and is a major test of a new NATO strategy focused on protecting civilians. The attack is also the first major combat operation since President Barack Obama ordered 30,000 U.S. reinforcements here in December to try to turn the tide of the war.

President Hamid Karzai called on Afghan and international troops "to exercise absolute caution to avoid harming civilians," including avoiding airstrikes in areas where civilians are at risk. In a statement, he also called on insurgent fighters to renounce violence and reintegrate into civilian life.

A Taliban spokesman insisted the insurgents were still resisting the allied assault and that the town remained under their control.

"The Taliban are there and they are fighting. All of Marjah is still under Taliban control," Qari Yousef Ahmadi told The Associated Press by phone. He declined to say how many Taliban fighters remained in the town but dismissed NATO accounts as "propaganda."

Lt. Col. Brian Christmas, commander of the 3rd Battalion, 6th Marines, said U.S. troops faced sustained gunbattles in four areas of the town, including the western suburb of Sistani where India Company faced "some intense fighting." To the east, Kilo Company was inserted by helicopter but was then "significantly engaged" as the Marines fanned out from the landing zone.

But the greatest threat came from the extensive network of mines, homemade bombs and booby traps that ground forces encountered as soon as they crossed a major major canal into the town's northern entrance.

Insurgents appeared to have withdrawn from their frontline positions but left boobytraps and explosives in their abandoned positions and in the network of canals built by the Americans in the 1950s and 1960s. Marines safely set off numerous bombs, as the sound of strong detonations reverberated through the dusty streets.

"It's just got to be a very slow and deliberate process," said Capt. Joshua Winfrey of Stillwater, Okla., a Marine company commander.

The bridge over the canal into Marjah from the north was so rigged with explosives that Marines erected temporary bridges to cross into the town.

Lance Corp. Ivan Meza, 19, was the first to walk across one of the flimsy bridges.

"I did get an adrenaline rush, and that bridge is wobbly," said Meza, a Marine combat engineer from Pismo Beach, California, who is with the 1st Platoon, Lima Company, 3rd Battalion, 6th Marines. 

Several civilians hesitantly crept out of their compounds as the Marines slowly worked through a suspected mine field. The Marines entered compounds first to make sure they were clear of bombs, then called in their Afghan counterparts to interview civilians inside. 

Shopkeeper Abdul Kader, 44, said seven or eight Taliban fighters, who had been holding the position where the Marines crossed over, had fled in the middle of the night. He said he was angry at the insurgents for having planted bombs and mines all around his neighborhood. 

"They left with their motorcycles and their guns. They went deeper into town," he said as Marines and Afghan troops searched a poppy field next to his house. "We can't even walk out of our own houses." 

Saturday's ground assault followed many hours after an initial wave of helicopters carrying hundreds of U.S. Marines and Afghan troops swooped into town under the cover of darkness before dawn. Cobra helicopters fired Hellfire missiles at tunnels, bunkers and other defensive positions. 

Marine commanders had said they expected between 400 to 1,000 insurgents &#8212; including more than 100 foreign fighters &#8212; to be holed up in Marjah. The town of 80,000 people, about 360 miles (610 kilometers) southwest of Kabul, is the linchpin of the militants' logistical and opium-smuggling network. 

The offensive, code-named "Moshtarak," or "Together," was described as the biggest joint operation of the Afghan war, with 15,000 troops involved, including some 7,500 troops fighting in Marjah. The government says Afghan soldiers make up at least half of the offensive's force. 

Once Marjah is secured, NATO hopes to rush in aid and restore public services in a bid to win support among the estimated 125,000 people who live in the town and surrounding villages. The Afghans' ability to restore those services is crucial to the success of the operation and to prevent the Taliban from returning. 

Carter said coalition forces hope to install an Afghan government presence within the next few days and will work to find and neutralize improvised explosive devices &#8212; homemade bombs &#8212; left by the militants. 

Tribal elders have pleaded for NATO to finish the operation quickly and spare civilians &#8212; an appeal that offers some hope the townspeople will cooperate with Afghan and international forces once the Taliban are gone. 

Still, the town's residents have displayed few signs of rushing to welcome the attack force. 

"The elders are telling people to stay behind the front doors and keep them bolted," Carter said. "Once people feel more secure and they realize there is government present on the ground, they will come out and tell us where the IEDs are."





*1st Battalion, 3rd Marines seizes a key junction of roads just outside of Marjah.*

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## fatman17

according to Sky News, the Taliban have not 'confronted' the ISAF/Nato advance - the militant casaulties have been low - all is well according to UK-MoD.


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## S-2

fatman17, we've a proliferation of threads going on right now WRT to this operation that are scattered in the U.S. foreign affairs section as well as World affairs, I believe.

Need to watch creating more, sir.

Thanks.

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## Awesome

fatman17 said:


> according to Sky News, the Taliban have not 'confronted' the ISAF/Nato advance - the militant casaulties have been low - all is well according to UK-MoD.


Hmmm I hope they don't vacate Helmand and cross over to Pakistan. This tactic was expected, they'd vacate to fight another day or at another place.


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## fatman17

S-2 said:


> fatman17, we've a proliferation of threads going on right now WRT to this operation that are scattered in the U.S. foreign affairs section as well as World affairs, I believe.
> 
> Need to watch creating more, sir.
> 
> Thanks.



my biggest peeve with members of this board - they post where they feel like without finding the proper segment.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

*Threads merged

Can members please pay attention to the section they start threads in?

All Afghanistan, Iraq, North Korea_US relations, Iran-US relations etc. threads go in this section.

Domestic US events related threads go in World Affairs - this is for US Foreign Affairs ONLY

US-Pakistan relations go in the Strategic affairs section or the Pakistan War section if related to Pakistan's war against the Taliban

Thanks*

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## fatman17

^^^Thanks AM - nice to see u back!


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## pkd




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## S-2

This is an excellent backgrounder to Operation Moshtarak provided by the Institute For The Study Of War-

Operation Moshtarak Briefing- Feb. 5, 2010 ISW

It explains the rationale as well as the operational intent. Further the maps are very good. I encourage those who've downloaded google-earth to type _Marjah, Helmand_ into the search. There's been a lot of detailed satelliate coverage of this area that's opensource and you can drop to about 500 ft. From there you can orient yourself to the maps provided by ISW and find the highway from Lashkar Gah west to Marjah. It shows the buildings, canals, and bridges in detail. The area is extensively networked with canals and this channelization poses severe engineering problems both now and later for ISAF forces.

The mining is extensive and it will months before they can all be lifted. Civilians WILL DIE from these unless they actively assist by informing their locations. Why? Because what they've seen their neighbors likely have not. They must help one another by identifying all that each person knows about.

The rationale for alerting both the taliban and civilians came from Raj-I-Nijat. The success of alerting the SWA civilians was integrated into ISAF ops. We don't care half as much about how many taliban we kill. It's irrelevant so long as they are ejected, the area secured and de-mined, and the Afghan government able to assert itself.

It actually appears that the afghan government has made a concerted effort to provide troops, police, and administrators to take over in Marjah. They'll all need time to get settled and they must be watched closely by ISAF to assure that they are at least honest and well-intentioned. Let us all hope so.

We're in no hurry here and can move as slowly as necessary to assure civilian safety. If hostages are taken, we'll simply back away. Sooner or later the taliban must make a run for it. 

Many have already left. O.K. It doesn't matter. The ink-blotch will be stained in Marjah and, once stabilized, we'll move to the next place. There are a number of towns along the Helmand river as it arches south that must be attacked. They are just like Marjah and there's still plenty of opium centers left that will need to be eradicated.

I hope those here will take the long view. Some with agendas opposing the stabilization will not. Please note whom they are and ask yourselves why they care so deeply for the taliban.

Thanks.


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## PAFAce

A couple of questions for those informed. This op is being spearheaded by the US/NATO forces, and they look serious for business. This means that the offer to negotiate is off the table, at least for the next few months. 

Now, we know the Taliban will likely melt away after a little bit of resistance, unless they abandon the basic rules of geurilla warfare. Hence gaining ground shouldn't be that much of a problem. My question is this, who will lead efforts to "hold" this ground. Afghan National Army or NATO/US? NATO/US seem the obvious choice, but they won't be there for long enough (assuming a 2011 exit). The ANA, on the other hand, isn't equipped to hold that ground on its own against the Taliban.

Secondly, where will the Taliban go after this? Will they try to push further West (away from their strongholds along the Durand Line) or will they try to come East? Also, what efforts are being made to ensure that they are unable to get to their strongholds in the East and prevent them for trying to seek sanctuary in Pakistan?


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## pkd

British soldier dies in Afghanistan offensive on Taleban
British soldier dies in Afghanistan offensive on Taleban - Times Online


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## S-2

*"My question is this, who will lead efforts to "hold" this ground. Afghan National Army or NATO/US?"*

PAFAce, there are more ANA troops in this operation than ISAF according the NYT article I've linked earlier. There are also teams of ANP and civilian administrators ready to move into the city that have already been identified and assigned. 

Have you done the requisite reading that's been made available or are you seeking rhetorical opportunities to snipe?

*"NATO/US seem the obvious choice, but they won't be there for long enough (assuming a 2011 exit)."* 

Consider that for a moment in light of this speculation of mine- Did Obama make clear to you that conditions on the ground will dictate the rate of withdrawal? If so, did he make clear that the forces presently in Afghanistan shall GROW throughout the summer? I know you are well-read so I'm certain that you know that those troops identified for deployment in his speech last November are only now BEGINNING to arrive and shall continue to do so for some time yet.

If all the above is true and accepted by you, how many troops must we withdraw before even reaching our present levels? 30,000? Over how long just to do that, ground conditions permitting? How long might that take? How many more beyond the present level to reach ZERO? All Obama needs to do to satisfy his liberal political constituency prior to the 2012 elections is show that the forces are being withdrawn. The rate for such seems very open to question, no?

*"The ANA, on the other hand, isn't equipped to hold that ground on its own against the Taliban."*

Is that something you know? If so, I'd like to know how you are able to determine the ANA's condition one and one-half years hence as well as the taliban's condition relative to them. I hope you're not projecting a personal hope of failure as it seems the world is working very hard to give the ANA the best chance possible.

Of course, it will certainly be harder for the ANA to grow if an insurgency directed by those like Haqqani, Hekmatyar, and Omar can continue from ELSEWHERE. That will absolutely complicate matters, don't you agree? Is it your hope that such complications continue? I hope not.

*"Secondly, where will the Taliban go after this?"*

The shadow district governor was captured in a car travelling south through Kandahar. Where do you think he was headed? This will take time as I know you read my above post that speculated the taliban will run for other towns further south in the Helmand valley. Would you wish us to snap our fingers and make it all better now?

*"Will they try to push further West (away from their strongholds along the Durand Line) or will they try to come East?"* 

West? This is confusing. West from where, sir? Kurram? Orakzai? West from Nuristan and Konar? The Helmand river valley is the discussion here along with an operation in Marjah. Are you dissembling?

*"...what efforts are being made to ensure that they are unable to get to their strongholds in the East and prevent them for trying to seek sanctuary in Pakistan?"*

Stick to Marjah and Helmand please. Otherwise you dissemble with strawmen for an agenda. Let me suggest politely that sanctuary has existed aplenty in Pakistan for eight years. In time with hard work, luck, and sacrifice an afghan government, army and police that is seventy years younger than your country's considerable talents might rise but they'll need your cooperation to do so. Permitting their enemies sanctuary isn't a good definition of that cooperation.

Read the articles and links provided, if you don't mind before you commence with this exercise in dissemblance. Your military pleads being "_overstretched_". Fine. You're not the only ones.

Thanks.

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## Spring Onion

Any development regarding Operation Mushrik ???

Casualties, advances ??? anything.

There was some news that there is first Taliban casualties in the operation Mushriq


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## S-2

Have you read the links embedded here?


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## PAFAce

S-2 said:


> Have you done the requisite reading that's been made available or are you seeking rhetorical opportunities to snipe?


No malicious intent on my part, sir, just simple queries. There may be more ANA troops, but its still being spearheaded by NATO/US forces, is it not?

Also, are you suggesting that, the ANA, ANP and local authorities will be successful in holding ground? I hope they are able to, I really do, but I wouldn't put money on it. Not yet.



> If all the above is true and accepted by you, how many troops must we withdraw before even reaching our present levels? 30,000? Over how long just to do that, ground conditions permitting? How long might that take? How many more beyond the present level to reach ZERO? All Obama needs to do to satisfy his liberal political constituency prior to the 2012 elections is show that the forces are being withdrawn. The rate for such seems very open to question, no?


Indeed, the rate of withdrawal is up in the air. His spokesmen also clarified, at protests by their Republican counterparts, that the condition on the ground will be taken into account before any withdrawal plans. Once again, my intent was only to know how long NATO/US forces plan to hold ground there.



> Is that something you know? If so, I'd like to know how you are able to determine the ANA's condition one and one-half years hence as well as the taliban's condition relative to them. I hope you're not projecting a personal hope of failure as it seems the world is working very hard to give the ANA the best chance possible.


I do not wish the ANA any ill. However, I also don't think the ANA will be significantly more capable a year and a half from now than it is today. And yes, this is opinion, but I imagine it's one held by many in your own country (if CNN is anything to go by, that is).



> Would you wish us to snap our fingers and make it all better now?


No, but I'd like to know you're not simply hoping to flush them out of one area and allow them to come together in another.


> West? This is confusing. West from where, sir? Kurram? Orakzai? West from Nuristan and Konar? The Helmand river valley is the discussion here along with an operation in Marjah.


Does Afghanistan end at Helmand? Are the Taliban incapable of sneaking into neighboring territory towards the West? That was the question, you could have simple said "nope, not possible", but you decided to throw accusations instead.



> Stick to Marjah and Helmand please. Otherwise you dissemble with strawmen for an agenda.


So, no. There are no efforts being made to ensure they can't reunite with their buddies in the East. Roger that.



> Read the articles and links provided, if you don't mind before you commence with this exercise in dissemblance. Your military pleads being "_overstretched_". Fine. You're not the only ones.


It's been a tough day, eh? I guess that explains your impatience.


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## qsaark

This operation is launched as if regular fighting units of Taliban/freedom fighter Army will meet with their adversaries in the valley of Helmand and the NATO/ISAF/Puppet ANA will destroy them and conquer Helmand. Afghan Taliban/Insurgents are fighting a guerrilla war, after all this chest trumpeting, and publicity campaign, why would they stay in the region? Who says that the aggressors/occupiers learnt any lesson from Vietnam.


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## waraich66

Jana said:


> Any development regarding Operation Mushrik ???
> 
> Casualties, advances ??? anything.
> 
> There was some news that there is first Taliban casualties in the operation Mushriq



US-NATO will be defeated Inshallah.

Only 2000 Mujahdeen in front of 30000 US-NATO+Afghan forces, with tanks,gunship support.

US-NATO could not be able to defeat Afghan Mujahdeen in eight years , how they could defeat them now?

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## Ahmad

qsaark said:


> This operation is launched as if regular fighting units of Taliban/freedom fighter Army will meet with their adversaries in the valley of Helmand and the NATO/ISAF/Puppet ANA will destroy them and conquer Helmand. Afghan Taliban/Insurgents are fighting a guerrilla war, after all this chest trumpeting, and publicity campaign, why would they stay in the region? Who says that the aggressors/occupiers learnt any lesson from Vietnam.



Hang on a second. I do remember that in a thread you called all the afghans barbarians, unthankful and alot more, now how come you are in defence of Afghans(or i should say the talibs)? Or perhaps the puppet taliban are serving your interests and are not barbarians.


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## qsaark

Unity said:


> Hang on a second. I do remember that in a thread you called all the afghans barbarians, unthankful and alot more, now how come you are in defence of Afghans(or i should say the talibs)? Or perhaps the puppet taliban are serving your interests and are not barbarians.


Whatever their historically proven traits are, I support every one who fights with foreign aggressors and occupiers.

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## Ahmad

qsaark said:


> Whatever their historically proven traits are, I support every one who fights with foreign aggressors and occupiers.


hypocracy and nothing else, if something does not suit you, you call them names and if something suits you, you will call them freedom fighters.. if you dont wish ill to yourself(TTP) dont wish ill to your neighbour(AT).


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## S-2

*"(or i should say the talibs)? Or perhaps the puppet taliban are serving your interests and are not barbarians."*


His writings are clear in this regard. Less clear is his purported knowledge of Vietnam. That's already been discredited elsewhere.

A harmless poseur.

Thanks.


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## qsaark

Unity said:


> hypocracy and nothing else, if something does not suit you, you call them names and if something suits you, you will call them freedom fighters.. if you dont wish ill to yourself(TTP) dont wish ill to your neighbour(AT).


TTP is fighting with its own people and against its own government, not the occupation forces, hence must be crushed. AT is a vague term and being mischievously used by the occupation forces and the puppet Kabul regime to systematically misinform the people of Afghanistan (though they are failed here) and the outside world. There are countless local insurgent groups (formerly Mujahideen) fighting against the occupation forces in their respective areas and have little in common with the radical Taliban (the same groups have also been fighting with the so called Taliban in the 90s). However, at this point, more important is to get rid of the occupation forces, and once they are out, matters can be resolved among each other. Maybe the matters never get resolved and a bitter fight breaks up like it happened in the late 80s, throughout 90s till another Taliban-like force emerges and bring the lawless Afghanistan into control.


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## qsaark

S-2 said:


> *"(or i should say the talibs)? Or perhaps the puppet taliban are serving your interests and are not barbarians."*
> 
> He is an armchair irhabist and a taliban apologist.
> 
> His writings are clear in this regard. Less clear is his purported knowledge of Vietnam. That's already been discredited elsewhere.
> 
> A harmless poseur.
> 
> Thanks.



Sadly, use of foul language and hypothetical accusations does not change the fact that Afghanistan *IS* under occupation and insurgents are fighting with the aggressors like they did before against the British and Soviets.

Regarding 'Vietnam', your beloved is thoroughly nailed down, in the thread exactly like your forces were thoroughly disgraced in Vietnam, but who can change the nature of yours of twisting the documented facts and trying to turn them in your favor.


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## S-2

*"There are no efforts being made to ensure they can't reunite with their buddies in the East."*

So you missed the part where the shadow district governor was arrested heading through Kandahar for parts "_east_"? I'm sure that taliban shall be killed or captured where found throughout Afghanistan until they reach and cross the border. Can you assure me of the same UNIFORM prosecution elsewhere?

The presence of your own citizens like Hafez Gul Bahadur and Maulvi Nazir argue otherwise. So too the presence of certain prominent foreigners confortably residing within Miram Shah. For EIGHT YEARS sir. 

Thanks.


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## Ahmad

qsaark said:


> TTP is fighting with its own people and against its own government, not the occupation forces, hence must be crushed. AT is a vague term and being mischievously used by the occupation forces and the puppet Kabul regime to systematically misinform the people of Afghanistan (though they are failed here) and the outside world. There are countless local insurgent groups (formerly Mujahideen) fighting against the occupation forces in their respective areas and have little in common with the radical Taliban (the same groups have also been fighting with the so called Taliban in the 90s). However, at this point, more important is to get rid of the occupation forces, and once they are out, matters can be resolved among each other. Maybe the matters never get resolved and a bitter fight breaks up like it happened in the late 80s, throughout 90s till another Taliban-like force emerges and bring the lawless Afghanistan into control.



First of all your account is totally wrong, out of all the mujahideen leaders, only Hekmatyar has opted to side with the the taliban, and the centre of power of the Taliban is only based in a few souther provinces. Secondly why would you care about the people whom curse anyway?


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## qsaark

Unity said:


> First of all your account is totally wrong, out of all the mujahideen leaders, only Hekmatyar has opted to side with the the taliban, and the centre of power of the Taliban is only based in a few souther provinces. Secondly why would you care about the people whom curse anyway?


The enemy of my enemy is my friend. He knows that in order to fight with a numerically and technologically superior aggressor, unity (ah, its your login name) is needed, and if he has to align with a former enemy for a greater good, he would. If my house is under attack, I'll ask my brother for help, no matter how fiercely he hates me, he is still my blood. Same is true for Afghans, Pashtoons or Tajiks, or Uzbeks, or Hazaras, they are still Afghans, still Muslims whose motherland has been invaded. Differences can be resolved at a later time when the enemy is thrown out.

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## Ahmad

qsaark said:


> The enemy of my enemy is my friend. He knows that in order to fight with a numerically and technologically superior aggressor, unity (ah, its your login name) is needed, and if he has to align with a former enemy for a greater good, he would. If my house is under attack, I'll ask my brother for help, no matter how fiercely he hates me, he is still my blood. Same is true for Afghans, Pashtoons or Tajiks, or Uzbeks, or Hazaras, they are still Afghans, still Muslims whose motherland has been invaded. Differences can be resolved at a later time when the enemy is thrown out.



Difference? I am not talking about a DIFFERENCE!! I was talking about barbarians, barbarians never change. Got it?


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## qsaark

Unity said:


> Difference? I am not talking about a DIFFERENCE!! I was talking about barbarians, barbarians never change. Got it?


From where this "DIFFERENCE!" popped up? Did you notice I replied in response to your statement:

"_First of all your account is totally wrong, out of all the mujahideen leaders, only Hekmatyar has opted to side with the the taliban, and the centre of power of the Taliban is only based in a few souther provinces. Secondly why would you care about the people whom curse anyway?_". 

The "Barbarian" thing is already taken in my reply here:

"_Whatever their historically proven traits are, I support every one who fights with foreign aggressors and occupiers_".

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## Ahmad

qsaark said:


> The "Barbarian" thing is already taken in my reply here:



The cat is out of the bag now, nothing can be done about it. by the way, it was the Mod who edited your post not yourself. lets stick to the topic please.


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## qsaark

Unity said:


> The cat is out of the bag now, nothing can be done about it. by the way, it was the Mod who edited your post not yourself. lets stick to the topic please.


What cat and which bag? I said Afghans are barbarians and I say it again if you did not hear it before loud and clear.

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## sherdil76

so we will see more brutalities in name of WoT by nexus of evils


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## Ahmad

Hope these landmines planted by the taliban are detected on time before they kill the innocent civilians.


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## sherdil76

Unity said:


> Hope these landmines planted by the taliban are detected on time before they kill the innocent civilians.



lol, get some knowledge, read this

Afghanistan: Land Mines From Afghan-Soviet War Leave Bitter Legacy
By Charles Recknagel

Afghanistan marks the anniversary of the withdrawal of Soviet troops from the country on 15 February. Among the legacies of the Soviet invasion, and the factional conflicts that followed the defeat of Soviet forces, are the hundreds of thousands of land mines that still litter many parts of the countryside.

Guy Willoughby has vivid memories of visiting Afghanistan 15 years ago at the time of the Soviet pullout.

As founder of the nonprofit demining group The Halo Trust, he went to Kabul to assess how many mines would have to be removed after 10 years of Soviet occupation. He and other demining experts were well aware that until the mines were cleared, millions of Afghan refugees would be unable to return home.

Afghanistan is considered by mine experts to be one of the three most heavily mined countries in the world.Willoughby, speaking recently with RFE/RL from his group's headquarters in Thornhill, Scotland, said that in 1989, many people in Afghanistan believed there might be as many as 30 million mines scattered about the countryside.

"The rumors were that there were between 10 million and 30 million land mines left behind in Afghanistan, mainly laid by the Russians but also laid by some of the mujahedin factions. We didn't believe these rumors at all. We simply couldn't work out how that number could possibly have been laid in the previous 10 years," Willoughby said.

*Willoughby said records kept at the time by the Soviet-supported government of Ahmadzai Najibullah showed instead that there were about 250,000 mines in the country*. 

"We worked very closely with the Afghan Ministry of Defense of the Najibullah government, who were extremely cooperative, and they had copies of the Russian minefield records. The Russian engineers handed over many of their minefield records to the Afghan government, and it was clear that the figure [when the Soviets left in 1989] was more like 260,000 or 270,000 land mines," Willoughby said.

But while that number was considerably less than what the public imagined, it still posed an enormous challenge. So, too, did the fact that the laying of land mines did not end with the Soviet pullout but continued for more than a decade afterward.

Willoughby says the Najibullah government laid new mines to protect its main supply routes and garrison towns before its collapse in 1992. *Subsequently, more mines were laid by factions trying to hold Kabul and other areas against the Taliban, which captured the capital in 1996. *

now dont say Taliban were opium producers too


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## S-2

We make mistakes. The taliban make more mistakes. Nearly three times more. At least when they're not intentionally targeting markets with mortars and rockets and assassinating those whom they consider threats.

Then there's the small matter of hiding behind civilians when faced with their own destruction.

Can't recall that accusation made of ISAF. Sherdil, do you need the documented proof? Let me know because I have it. I'm simply uncertain how well you read.

Thanks.


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## Ahmad

sherdil76 said:


> lol, get some knowledge, read this
> 
> Afghanistan: Land Mines From Afghan-Soviet War Leave Bitter Legacy
> By Charles Recknagel
> 
> Afghanistan marks the anniversary of the withdrawal of Soviet troops from the country on 15 February. Among the legacies of the Soviet invasion, and the factional conflicts that followed the defeat of Soviet forces, are the hundreds of thousands of land mines that still litter many parts of the countryside.
> 
> Guy Willoughby has vivid memories of visiting Afghanistan 15 years ago at the time of the Soviet pullout.
> 
> As founder of the nonprofit demining group The Halo Trust, he went to Kabul to assess how many mines would have to be removed after 10 years of Soviet occupation. He and other demining experts were well aware that until the mines were cleared, millions of Afghan refugees would be unable to return home.
> 
> Afghanistan is considered by mine experts to be one of the three most heavily mined countries in the world.Willoughby, speaking recently with RFE/RL from his group's headquarters in Thornhill, Scotland, said that in 1989, many people in Afghanistan believed there might be as many as 30 million mines scattered about the countryside.
> 
> "The rumors were that there were between 10 million and 30 million land mines left behind in Afghanistan, mainly laid by the Russians but also laid by some of the mujahedin factions. We didn't believe these rumors at all. We simply couldn't work out how that number could possibly have been laid in the previous 10 years," Willoughby said.
> 
> *Willoughby said records kept at the time by the Soviet-supported government of Ahmadzai Najibullah showed instead that there were about 250,000 mines in the country*.
> 
> "We worked very closely with the Afghan Ministry of Defense of the Najibullah government, who were extremely cooperative, and they had copies of the Russian minefield records. The Russian engineers handed over many of their minefield records to the Afghan government, and it was clear that the figure [when the Soviets left in 1989] was more like 260,000 or 270,000 land mines," Willoughby said.
> 
> But while that number was considerably less than what the public imagined, it still posed an enormous challenge. So, too, did the fact that the laying of land mines did not end with the Soviet pullout but continued for more than a decade afterward.
> 
> Willoughby says the Najibullah government laid new mines to protect its main supply routes and garrison towns before its collapse in 1992. *Subsequently, more mines were laid by factions trying to hold Kabul and other areas against the Taliban, which captured the capital in 1996. *
> 
> now dont say Taliban were opium producers too



I am well aware of the landmine problems in Afghanistan. Although the Taliban have planted more on top of the existing ones. Landmines are a huge problem in Afghanistan, while i was in Afghanistan in some mountains and other plain areas(non urban) we were absolutely in danger of losing our lives because of these mines, becasue every step we took , there was no guarantee that you didnt step on a landmine(anti personal or anti tank)


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## qsaark

S-2 said:


> We make mistakes. The taliban make more mistakes. Nearly three times more.


Which study published in a or many peer reviewed Journals of international repute reported this 'three time more' figure?




> At least when they're not intentionally targeting markets with mortars and rockets and assassinating those whom they consider threats.


Source of this propaganda other than 'official' NATO/ISAF/puppet ANA source?



> Then there's the small matter of hiding behind civilians when faced with their own destruction.


Still the civilians allow them to hide behind them and don't support the occupation forces.



> I'm simply uncertain how well you read.


Hopefully better than how you were reading the charts on poppy growth during past eight years of occupation of Afghanistan.


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## S-2

*"now dont say Taliban were opium producers too"*

Well, the taliban aren't in the fields _per se_ but the data makes clear that there's a severe correlation between the traditional regions of strength of the taliban and where opium is most prevalently grown in Afghanistan.

During the taliban's rule in Afghanistan between 1996-2001, they were the world's leading producer of opium, setting a then world record in 1999. See Pg. 1 of UNODC Afghan Opium Survey 2009-

2009 Afghanistan Opium Survey Summary-UNODC

The chart on page one makes clear the consistent RISE in opium production from 1996 when the taliban seized power until 1999 where it set a world record. Even 2000 was far higher than all previous years but 1999. 

It was only in 2001 when the taliban, seeking the funding previously denied by the international community, radically cut opium cultivation. In so doing, they completely caught off-guard the farmers of Afghanistan with whom they'd encouraged such practices and left desperate vast swaths of the afghan agricultural community who were devastated by the taliban's eradication. 

The taliban didn't care. They had a new agenda.

Opium production today is down from a high of 193,000 hectares in 2007 to 123,000 hectares in 2009- a two year reduction of 36&#37;. Nonetheless, the data shows that 80% of the opium now grown in Afghanistan occurs in Helmand, Kandahar, and Oruzgan-the areas where the taliban exert the greatest control. 

See page 2 of the UNODC Afghanistan Opium Survey 2009.

Further, the taliban have created a sophisticated taxation system within these areas from which they derive considerable revenue-

Afghanistan War: Marjah Offensive Targets Opium Capital- CSM Feb. 9, 2010

Finally, many of their local fighters are also farmers whom derive much of their livlihood from opium. Taliban operations are timed to permit their fighters the opportunity to work their fields.

The taliban are knee-deep in dope and have been for years. Your comment is ludicrous in the face of the evidence to the contrary. 

You might do yourself a favor and save the links. You need the education, it seems.

Thanks.

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## qsaark

Unity said:


> I am well aware of the landmine problems in Afghanistan. *Although the Taliban have planted more* on top of the existing ones.


As if Northern alliance and those who were fighting with Taliban only laid carpets.

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## qsaark

S-2 said:


> Helmand, Kandahar, and Oruzgan-the areas where the Taliban exert the greatest control


Who are the governors of these provinces? Taliban? 

Why occupation forces did not destroy the poppy crop? Because several Div of Taliban Army protecting those fields and had installed SA300/400 around?

What the drones and spy satellites doing? Maybe fields were under underground. 

Why the transportation of the harvest could not be intercepted and traffickers controlled? Because there were underground massive tunnels opening into neighboring Pakistan.

Thirty six percent reduction? I am all too aware of these statistical gimmicks, why it was not down to zero when the occupation forces had all means available to them to do so? After eight year long occupation its only 36&#37; down.....

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## S-2

*"There may be more ANA troops, but its still being spearheaded by NATO/US forces, is it not?"*

Yes. British and American combat forces are in the lead but each battalion is married to an ANA battalion throughout the operation. If you've looked at the links throughout this thread there have been numerous photos. Virtually all include ANA troops with ISAF forces. Do F.C. troops routinely lead when married with P.A. forces in local operations like Rah-I-Nijat? I suspect not.

*"I wouldn't put money on it. Not yet."*

Of course you wouldn't. They will make mistakes and have set-backs. They will struggle on their own for some time. Their difficulties can only be exacerbated by the malevolence and endurance of the enemy's leadership. So long as the snake's head can think comfortably _elsewhere_, there shall be a leadership in opposition to the ANA's efforts.

I hope some YEAR that ceases. Don't you?

*"Once again, my intent was only to know how long NATO/US forces plan to hold ground there."*

Perhaps you should ask the ground commanders and the President.

*"I do not wish the ANA any ill."*

I'm uncertain of that.

*"However, I also don't think the ANA will be significantly more capable a year and a half from now than it is today."*

Thanks for the supporting information behind your opinions. I try hard to support mine but now have doubts whether even esteemed think-tank members actually read threads and the embedded links. I shouldn't be surprised when speculation is offered backed by allusions to others without reference. Did CNN say so or did they quote others? What others, may I ask? See where I am going?

*"No, but I'd like to know you're not simply hoping to flush them out of one area and allow them to come together in another."*

You mean like the TTP was flushed into N. Waziristan, Orakzai, and Kurrum? The land is hard and survival instincts kick in. Men do what they can to live. We modeled our warnings to Marjah on the P.A. warnings to S. Waziristan throughout last summer. How many left before your forces attacked? How many since? There is no perfect solution. You know that thus there is a high degree of disingenuousness to your commentary.

*"Does Afghanistan end at Helmand? Are the Taliban incapable of sneaking into neighboring territory towards the West? That was the question, you could have simple said "nope, not possible", but you decided to throw accusations instead."*

Here was your comment again-

*"Secondly, where will the Taliban go after this? Will they try to push further West (away from their strongholds along the Durand Line) or will they try to come East?"*

The "..._strongholds along the Durand Line_" hold little practical meaning in Helmand. Do you realize how far Marjah is from the Pakistani border? You would if you'd availed yourself of the ISW link I'd provided earlier. The taliban in Helmand are centered in the green zones of the Helmand river valley where the people and the opium are located.

*"Also, what efforts are being made to ensure that they are unable to get to their strongholds in the East and prevent them for trying to seek sanctuary in Pakistan?"*

PAFAce, they may attempt to head into Kandahar where their presence is very strong. They may attempt to head south along the Helmand river where their presence is very strong. If they head far south to your borders, please tell your forces to stop them if you can. We are comfortable knowing that your military recognizes the great difficulty in stopping those whom wish to cross the borders as they've been unable (unwilling) to stop those in Miram Shah and elsewhere along FATA from doing so for years. Some may run for Pakistan. Good luck. We know Faizullah ran for Afghanistan, correct? How successful were your efforts to stop him?

*"So, no. There are no efforts being made to ensure they can't reunite with their buddies in the East. Roger that."*

Snide and petty like much of your post. We'll make every effort, I'm sure, to kill or capture them if we can find them before they cross into sanctuary on your lands. After that, they are your problem. Rightfully so. Remove the idea in their heads that sanctuary exists in Pakistan and they'll have to settle for other locales much closer. If their intent is to go to Pakistan, however, it must be because they feel SAFE there, no?

*"It's been a tough day, eh? I guess that explains your impatience."*

My impatience with you derives from sifting through your snide unsubstantiated assertions lacking supporting links and your equally clear unwillingness to read those offered to you. This is a thread about a distinct military operation within a defined area far from the Pakistani border.

*"No malicious intent on my part, sir, just simple queries."*

Hardly. You are a former military professional, no? Perhaps a commissioned officer? It isn't evident in your evaluation of the operation at hand and the display of strawmen here makes clear that malice was, indeed, close to the mark. I knew so from your initial post and it is confirmed in my mind, PAFAce.

You can do better and be far more prepared and forthright in your questions. I've seen it before but it's not on display here.

Thanks.


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## Metallic

*Initial key objectives of Op Moshtarak achieved*
*UNITED KINGDOM - 13 FEBRUARY 2010*

The initial key objectives of Operation Moshtarak have been achieved in a short space of time and with minimal interference from the Taliban, UK military spokesman Major General Gordon Messenger has said this afternoon.

The "clearing" phase of the operation was launched at 0400hrs local time this morning with a series of simultaneous helicopter assaults and ground offensives undertaken by thousands of Afghan Army forces and ISAF soldiers from nations including the UK, US, Denmark and Estonia.

*Major General Messenger said: *

"It is still early days but operational commanders are currently pleased with the progress that has been made since the operation was launched this morning. 

"There has been some resistance but it has been relatively light and the initial objective of surprising the Taliban with the time and place of the operation appears to have been achieved."

Major General Messenger said the key objectives of this phase of the operation was the built up population areas where troops were inserted via helicopters. Ground elements, linked up with these troops according to plan.

Soldiers from the 1 Royal Welsh Battle Group, the Coldstream Guards Battle Group (UK) and 1 Grenadier Guards Battle Group (UK), along with their Afghan Army partners and troops from Estonia were involved in clearing the area of the Chah E Anjir Triangle, as well as the area to the west of Babaji.

American and Afghan troops meanwhile led air and ground assaults in the much larger Marjah region where clearance operations are still ongoing.

Major General Messenger said that in the British area of operations the initial stage of the clearance phase had been completed. He said there has been some fighting but that this had been only sporadic adding:

"The Taliban have not been able to put up a coherent response. They appear confused and disorientated."

The speed of the clearance phase has allowed shuras with the local population, led by the Afghan National Army to take place. These have been successful, the locals know that ISAF and Afghan forces were coming and they have been welcoming, Major General Messenger said.

The elders have been assured that ISAF are here to stay and the early signs are that the local people are keen to engage.

This is key to the enduring success of the operation. Major General Messenger suggested that the Taliban have either left the area of melted into the local population, perhaps with a view to fighting another day. But the strategy to build up the influence of the Afghanistan Government and a permanent security presence from Afghan and ISAF forces in the area will limit the ability of insurgents to once again take control.

Major General Messenger said there have been a number of IED finds and a number of occasions where the local population have pointed out IEDS, in one case a lane through an IED field was pointed out.

Critical to the success of the operation so far, he added, was the use of ISAF air elements including the full array of ISTAR and fixed wing support. He said there were strict instructions on the use of air munitions which were being kept to an absolute minimum. 

While there have been a relatively low number of insurgent casualties, Major General Messenger said he is not aware of any civilian casualties.

The current situation involves predominately Afghan forces engaging with local people in the population centres with other ISAF forces providing flanking protection on the outside.

The theme over the next 24 hours Major General Messenger said was that of consolidation, with troops getting a greater understanding of the terrain they are operating in and making sure the local people know that they are there to protect them.

Following this the stabilisation plan will be immediately enacted which sees an enduring security force of partnered Afghan and NATO forces, and the Afghan National Police, providing reassurance and presence for the local population. 

Local governors and village elders were consulted before the operation started and will be an important part of the design of the subsequent security posture.

*Summing up the operation so far Major General Messenger said:*

"It appears that the Taliban have been forced into relative inactivity, although in the next few days they could get their breath back and have a go. There is also the residual IED threat.

"No one is saying the area is secure or the job is done but the feeling is that events last night have gone as well as they could have gone. So far so good. 

"We have achieved tactical surprise, the approach of advance warning has gone well and the positive local dynamics are a very good sign but there's still a long way to go. This is all about winning the allegiance of the local people and you can't do that over night."

Stressing the point that seeking to engage the Taliban was never a key objective, Major General Messenger said:

"This is not and cannot be a campaign of us against them. It is about removing their ability to operate in the population and then building the Afghan capacity to deal with the challenges."

Major General Messenger said that the operation is of considerable significance to the overall campaign in Afghanistan, saying that these areas are known as bad areas and until we can show and enduring presence there then we can't move on to the next level of the campaign.


*Members of the Afghanistan Army with 1st Battalion the Royal Welsh head over to the helicopter landing spot as they take of for Operation Moshtarak *



*Cpl Lino Woolf, 1st Battalion the Royal Welsh, keeping a firm grasp of his search dog as Operation Moshtarak begins.*



*Members of the 1st Battalion The Royal Welsh prepare for boarding helicopters as they prepare for Operation Moshtarak*



*A helicopter comes into land to lift waves of Afghanistan Army and 1st Battalion the Royal Welsh troops for Operation Moshtarak *


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## PAFAce

S-2 said:


> British and American combat forces are in the lead but each battalion is married to an ANA battalion throughout the operation. If you've looked at the links throughout this thread there have been numerous photos. Virtually all include ANA troops with ISAF forces. Do F.C. troops routinely lead when married with P.A. forces in local operations like Rah-I-Nijat? I suspect not.


Well, I didn't want to be the one to compare the Frontier Corp to the Afghan National Army so as not to invite criticism for underestimating the ANA. Also, unlike the ANA, the FC always has Pakistan Army to fall back on. The ANA, in the future, might not.


> So long as the snake's head can think comfortably _elsewhere_, there shall be a leadership in opposition to the ANA's efforts.


We could say the same. In fact, when we launched our own massive operations, we did. I think this is part of that "trust deficit" thing.


> Perhaps you should ask the ground commanders and the President.


I thought someone here might have a clue. 


> I'm uncertain of that.


You wouldn't say that if you knew what I've written in the Think Tank section. But I don't have to justify myself to you.


> You mean like the TTP was flushed into N. Waziristan, Orakzai, and Kurrum? The land is hard and survival instincts kick in.


Well our objectives were a lot clearer than yours. We wanted to capture and destroy TTP's bases in Malakand, Swat and SWA, and we did so (to a large extent), but your objectives are unclear to me (hence the questions). Also, take your own advice and stick with Operation Moshtarak, Rah-e-Nijat and Rah-e-Rast can be discussed elsewhere.


> Here was your comment again


Miscommunication, that's all. You didn't get what I meant to say. Common when the conversation is not face-to-face, nobody's fault.



> You are a former military professional, no? Perhaps a commissioned officer?


Not even close. I'm a 21 year old Engineering student of Pakistani origin living in Canada. I thought you knew that already.



> You can do better and be far more prepared and forthright in your questions. I've seen it before but it's not on display here.


I can certainly be more informed. In fact, that is I'm here. My questions, initially, were to get the opinion of "those in the know". That is all.


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## waraich66

qsaark said:


> What cat and which bag? I said Afghans are barbarians and I say it again if you did not hear it before loud and clear.



Why Afghans are barbarian? they are fighting for liberation their home land, Muslims and Hindu both fought against Britishers for independence 1857 and 1947 , are they barbarians also?

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## fatman17

the US assault (according to media reports) is being slowed down by Taliban 'booby-traps' and 'hit-and-run' tactics.


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## waraich66

fatman17 said:


> the US assault (according to media reports) is being slowed down by Taliban 'booby-traps' and 'hit-and-run' tactics.



Gurrilla war code is un breakable


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## S-2

*"the US assault (according to media reports) is being slowed down by Taliban 'booby-traps' and 'hit-and-run' tactics."*

We're in no hurry. Call me when the taliban make a determined assault on one of the participating units. They won't. What they do now is all that they can do. The town will not be there's. It's just that simple. Read the backgrounder from the Institute For The Study Of War provided in the links please.

Thanks.

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## fatman17

S-2 said:


> *"the US assault (according to media reports) is being slowed down by Taliban 'booby-traps' and 'hit-and-run' tactics."*
> 
> We're in no hurry. Call me when the taliban make a determined assault on one of the participating units. They won't. What they do now is all that they can do. The town will not be there's. It's just that simple. Read the backgrounder from the Institute For The Study Of War provided in the links please.
> 
> Thanks.



we are all hoping for the best ! success in afghanistan = success in pakistan - its that simple.

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## sherdil76

see how effective was the ban on opium cultivation by Taliban in year 2000



i hope above is understandable, if not, that remind me of what Trevor used to say, a retired British SAS soldier and my ex company boss based in outskirts of east London 

''Dont try to convince the assh*les becuase they dont have ear to listen or brain to understand.''

one of the very few wise people i met so far, he also believes that this misadventure in middle east and afghanistan by Americans, supported by Brits cannot be won, lets see if he is right or assh*les have some other plans


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## waraich66

fatman17 said:


> we are all hoping for the best ! success in afghanistan = success in pakistan - its that simple.



Why they hate us (II): How many Muslims has the U.S. killed in the past 30 years?
Posted By Stephen M. Walt Monday, November 30, 2009 - 5:38 PM Share 


Tom Friedman had an especially fatuous column in Sunday's New York Times, which is saying something given his well-established capacity for smug self-assurance. According to Friedman, the big challenge we face in the Arab and Islamic world is "the Narrative" -- his patronizing term for Muslim views about America's supposedly negative role in the region. If Muslims weren't so irrational, he thinks, they would recognize that "U.S. foreign policy has been largely dedicated to rescuing Muslims or trying to help free them from tyranny." He concedes that we made a few mistakes here and there (such as at Abu Ghraib), but the real problem is all those anti-American fairy tales that Muslims tell each other to avoid taking responsibility for their own actions. 

I heard a different take on this subject at a recent conference on U.S. relations with the Islamic world. In addition to hearing a diverse set of views from different Islamic countries, one of the other participants (a prominent English journalist) put it quite simply. "If the United States wants to improve its image in the Islamic world," he said, "it should stop killing Muslims." 

Now I don't think the issue is quite that simple, but the comment got me thinking: How many Muslims has the United States killed in the past thirty years, and how many Americans have been killed by Muslims? Coming up with a precise answer to this question is probably impossible, but it is also not necessary, because the rough numbers are so clearly lopsided. 

Here's my back-of-the-envelope analysis, based on estimates deliberately chosen to favor the United States. Specifically, I have taken the low estimates of Muslim fatalities, along with much more reliable figures for U.S. deaths. 

To repeat: I have deliberately selected "low-end" estimates for Muslim fatalities, so these figures present the "best case" for the United States. Even so, the United States has killed nearly 30 Muslims for every American lost. The real ratio is probably much higher, and a reasonable upper bound for Muslim fatalities (based mostly on higher estimates of "excess deaths" in Iraq due to the sanctions regime and the post-2003 occupation) is well over one million, equivalent to over 100 Muslim fatalities for every American lost. 

Figures like these should be used with caution, of course, and several obvious caveats apply. To begin with, the United States is not solely responsible for some of those fatalities, most notably in the case of the "excess deaths" attributable to the U.N. sanctions regime against Iraq. Saddam Hussein clearly deserves much of the blame for these "excess deaths," insofar as he could have complied with Security Council resolutions and gotten the sanctions lifted or used the "oil for food" problem properly. Nonetheless, the fact remains that the United States (and the other SC members) knew that keeping the sanctions in place would cause tens of thousands of innocent people to die and we went ahead anyway. 

Similarly, the United States is not solely to blame for the sectarian violence that engulfed Iraq after the 2003 invasion. U.S. forces killed many Iraqis, to be sure, but plenty of Shiites, Kurds, Sunnis, and foreign infiltrators were pulling triggers and planting bombs too. Yet it is still the case that the United States invaded a country that had not attacked us, dismantled its regime, and took hardly any precautions to prevent the (predictable) outbreak of violence. Having uncapped the volcano, we are hardly blameless, and that goes for pundits like Friedman who enthusiastically endorsed the original invasion. 

Third, the fact that people died as a result of certain U.S. actions does not by itself mean that those policy decisions were wrong. I'm a realist, and I accept the unfortunate fact that international politics is a rough business and sometimes innocent people die as a result of actions that may in fact be justifiable. For example, I don't think it was wrong to expel Iraq from Kuwait in 1991 or to topple the Taliban in 2001. Nor do I think it was wrong to try to catch Bin Laden -- even though people died in the attempt -- and I would support similar efforts to capture him today even if it placed more people at risk. In other words, a full assessment of U.S. policy would have to weigh these regrettable costs against the alleged benefits to the United States itself or the international community as a whole. 

Yet if you really want to know "why they hate us," the numbers presented above cannot be ignored. Even if we view these figures with skepticism and discount the numbers a lot, the fact remains that the United States has killed a very large number of Arab or Muslim individuals over the past three decades. Even though we had just cause and the right intentions in some cases (as in the first Gulf War), our actions were indefensible (maybe even criminal) in others. 

It is also striking to observe that virtually all of the Muslim deaths were the direct or indirect consequence of official U.S. government policy. By contrast, most of the Americans killed by Muslims were the victims of non-state terrorist groups such as al Qaeda or the insurgents in Iraq and Afghanistan. Americans should also bear in mind that the figures reported above omit the Arabs and Muslims killed by Israel in Lebanon, Gaza, and the West Bank. Given our generous and unconditional support for Israel's policy towards the Arab world in general and the Palestinians in particular, Muslims rightly hold us partly responsible for those victims too. 

Contrary to what Friedman thinks, our real problem isn't a fictitious Muslim "narrative" about America's role in the region; it is mostly the actual things we have been doing in recent years. To say that in no way justifies anti-American terrorism or absolves other societies of responsibility for their own mistakes or misdeeds. But the self-righteousness on display in Friedman's op-ed isn't just simplistic; it is actively harmful. Why? Because whitewashing our own misconduct makes it harder for Americans to figure out why their country is so unpopular and makes us less likely to consider different (and more effective) approaches. 

Some degree of anti-Americanism may reflect ideology, distorted history, or a foreign government's attempt to shift blame onto others (a practice that all governments indulge in), but a lot of it is the inevitable result of policies that the American people have supported in the past. When you kill tens of thousands of people in other countries -- and sometimes for no good reason -- you shouldn't be surprised when people in those countries are enraged by this behavior and interested in revenge. After all, how did we react after September 11? 

MOHAMMED SAWAF/AFP/Getty Images

http://walt.foreignpolicy.com/posts...has_the_us_killed_in_the_past_30_years?page=1

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## The Patriot

S-2 said:


> The largest operation of the war involving up to 15,000 U.S. Marines, Army and Navy SEALs, British Army and SAS, Canadian advisors, Afghan National Army units and others (to include DEA) has commenced.
> 
> There's an interesting series of blogs that will be following the battle from the Institute For The Study Of War. I encourage those having an interest to review the first installment.
> 
> It's a fresh and well-footnoted backgrounder to the A.O. as well as preliminary operations conducted by British and American forces to prepare the battlefield. It highlights some of the anticipated difficulties associated with engineering operations as well as internally-displaced persons (IDPs).
> 
> I'd also encourage those interested to match the graphics maps against a GOOGLE-EARTH satelliate scan. The terrain has been well-mapped by Google-Earth and you can see the roads (and cars btw), canals, crossings, and structures through the area-
> 
> Operation Moshtarak Backgrounder
> 
> Thanks.



thanks for the link. 

I hope and pray the barbarians are eliminated in this operation.


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## S-2

*"i hope above is understandable..."*

Partially. You like pictures. Incomplete ones at that. I like data. Your pictures which I provided are distortions of the whole truth in that you fail continuing the bar graph through 2008 and 2009 thus failing to show the 36&#37; decrease from 2007. A clear trend downward. Odd.

Too, you've not availed yourself of the data which makes clear that 123,000 hectares were cultivated last year in 34 total provinces. Most of those provinces were in fact opium free. *80%* of the opium cultivated last year was in *THREE* provinces-Oruzgan, Helmand, and Kandahar-the traditional strongholds of the taliban.

Nothing explains the consistent growth of opium under taliban control quite like the manner in which the taliban SHUT IT DOWN in 2001. If capable of that then it stands to reason the taliban were equally capable in 1996 of not engaging that heinous practice at all but preferred otherwise.

Tiresome and dissembling.

Thanks.


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## Ahmad

qsaark said:


> Who are the governors of these provinces? Taliban?
> 
> Why occupation forces did not destroy the poppy crop? Because several Div of Taliban Army protecting those fields and had installed SA300/400 around?
> 
> What the drones and spy satellites doing? Maybe fields were under underground.
> 
> Why the transportation of the harvest could not be intercepted and traffickers controlled? Because there were underground massive tunnels opening into neighboring Pakistan.
> 
> Thirty six percent reduction? I am all too aware of these statistical gimmicks, why it was not down to zero when the occupation forces had all means available to them to do so? After eight year long occupation its only 36% down.....



It is not that difficult to get rid of the poppy fields at once, GoA have always resisted the call for forcefully eradication of poppy as in these areas poppy production is the sole source of income for the poor farmers, removing the poppy will be equal to removing their livlihood. Otherwise it is not that difficult or costy to get rid of them by poisonign them from air. If you look at the poppy production in Afghanistan, the central and Northern(with the exception of badakhshan) have no or negligible poppy production, much of Western and Eastern Afghanistan are free of poppy, while in the south where the taliban have influecen there is poppy production in great deal.


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## S-2

*"Well, I didn't want to be the one to compare the Frontier Corp to the Afghan National Army so as not to invite criticism for underestimating the ANA..."*

It is no shame to me that a nascent force has no relation to the martial tradition and stability enjoyed by the Pakistani Army. The ANA possess no NCO corps worthy of the name yet. No tradition and an officer corps that has much to learn. None of that happens overnight, especially in the midst of war.

Need you be apprised of those obvious realities?

*"The ANA, in the future, might not."*

We'll let the future unfold to determine what transpires on the ground. Meanwhile, they have good mentors in the Canadians, French, British, Dutch, Romanians, Estonians, and ourselves. We lead from the front and they are with us as the photos make clear. This army isn't sitting in its barracks, whatever might be said of them right now.

*"We could say the same. In fact, when we launched our own massive operations, we did. I think this is part of that "trust deficit" thing."*

Agreed. You don't trust forty plus nations whom say they've no evidence of your claims. Forty plus nations don't trust your claims that Haqqani isn't in Miram Shah. We listened in amazement to your denials of the Quetta Shura for years only to awake one morning and read this-

 Quetta shura no longer poses threat: Ahmad Mukhtar- DAWN Dec. 11, 2009

I've awaited denials or elaboration by your government of Mukhtar's claim. There's been none. Has it been destroyed? No. Of course not...but it's existence is assured. 

Doesn't matter though. Sanctuary in Pakistan is an established fact for eight years and, worse, your own citizens have engaged in war with Afghanistan without restraint-Hafez Gul Bahadur and Maulvi Nazir. That's a shame, PAFAce. It really is.

Forty plus nations understand that if India used Afghanistan as a springboard for attacks upon Pakistan that India would be endangering THEIR LIVES and those of the Afghans whom we try to protect. Do you really think with all those nations, NGOs, world press, U.N. and everybody else watching out of THEIR self-interest that such is occurring?

Sheer dissemblance to justify your attempts to manipulate Afghanistan with the afghan taliban is how it adds up for the rest of mankind. Pakistan fools nobody but itself and unless that changes, it'll be Pakistan's ruination.

*"You wouldn't say that if you knew what I've written in the Think Tank section. But I don't have to justify myself to you."*

I don't hide my thoughts. I express them as powerfully and eloquently as possible. Evidently you've something to hide from your fellow Pakistanis. I see that from many in the think-tank who fear facing their brothers and sisters instead of leading. Your problem...with them.

*"Well our objectives were a lot clearer than yours... but your objectives are unclear to me (hence the questions)."*

Sadly, had you read the backgrounder from ISW your questions about a very distinct and well-defined operation would have been answered. Oddly, your questions have little to do with that operation and allude much to other matters. Therefore...

*"Also, take your own advice and stick with Operation Moshtarak, Rah-e-Nijat and Rah-e-Rast can be discussed elsewhere."*

...this advice by your is a red herring. It is YOU that expanded the discussion beyond the scope of the topic. So be it. The comparisons to exfiltration by the taliban from S. Waziristan into Orakzai, Kurrum, and Khyber are obvious to me. Given warning, that's what an irregular force will likely attempt. Faced with the harsh reality of war, those remaining will also come to their senses and seek safer climes. Not unusual nor unexpected by me so I fail to understand what lesson you haven't also learned?

*"My questions, initially, were to get the opinion of "those in the know". That is all."*

All open-sourced if you wish to locate the myriad available bits of information lying about. Sadly, I'm convinced that links can be placed under the noses of many and STILL those horses refuse to be led to water.

You write well. You possess a fine mind. Forgive me for expecting more.

Thanks.

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## Metallic

*NATO's Afghan offensive enters second day, 27 Taliban killed* 
*14 FEBRUARY 2010*

Lashkargah, Afghanistan - NATO's most ambitious offensive against Taliban strongholds in Helmand province entered its second day Sunday, with officials claiming 27 insurgents killed. Thousands of US Marines, Afghan and British forces were inserted by dozens of helicopters and armoured vehicles into Marjah and Nad Ali districts in the southern province Saturday. 

The military operation is the largest since the ouster of Taliban regime by a US-led invasion in late 2001. 

NATO officials claimed early success as troops cleared 13 targeted locations in the two districts, strategically important bastions in the country's main opium-producing region. 

"The operation is going on successfully," Daoud Ahmadi, spokesman for Helmand's provincial governor, said. He said seven insurgents were killed since Saturday night, bringing the total Taliban death toll to 27. 

He said the combined forces also discovered and destroyed more than 2,500 kilograms of explosives. 

Two NATO soldiers, one British soldier and a US Marine were also killed in the first day of the operation, Ahamdi said. The British Defence Ministry also confirmed in a statement posted on its website that a soldier from 1st Battalion Grenadier Guards was killed by a explosion in Nad Ali district. 

There no Afghan army casualties among. General Abdul Rahim Wardak, Afghan defence minister, said in Kabul Saturday that there had been some injuries among Afghan forces. 

Wardak said several hundred Taliban fighters were still in the area, while a large number of the insurgents had fled before the start of the operation, which was announced weeks prior. Other NATO and Afghan officials estimated that from 600 to 1,000 Taliban were entrenched in the two targeted districts. 

A total of 15,000 troops, including US, Afghan, British, Canadian, Danish and Estonian personnel were mobilized for the operation. 

The operation, dubbed Mushtarak or "together," is centred on Marjah, inhabited by about 80,000 people, where Taliban-protect traffickers had erected the biggest drug market in the country. 

Hundreds of local residents of Marjah and neighboring Nad Ali have fled to provincial capital Lashkargah, but many others remained amid assurances by NATO officials that measures would be put in place to avoid civilian casualties. 

Officials said roadside bombs had slowed the advance of combined forces moving through Marjah town. 

Taliban spokesman Qari Mohammad Yousif Ahmadi, speaking by phone from an undisclosed location, said Sunday that their fighters had not retreated. 

The combined forces held meetings with groups of Afghan local elders in the area, a NATO military statement said Sunday. "More shuras (local councils) are anticipated in the coming days." 

The offensive, a first test of new US strategy to turn the tide of the eight-year-war, aims to extend the Afghan government's authority in the Taliban-controlled areas and begin reconstruction to win the hearts and minds of civilians. 

US President Barack Obama increased the US troop commitment by another 30,000 troops, bringing the US presence to 98,000 soldiers. The US and NATO together have around 113,000 troops currently in the country, and some NATO countries have pledged to send up to 7,000 more troops by this summer.


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## S-2

Here's a downloaded image of a complex of compounds just south of the google-earth location for Marjah. The area is well-mapped by google earth for those who've downloaded the program-

Thanks.

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## fawwaxs

20 Militants, 2 Soldiers Die In NATO's Afghan Offensive
2/13/2010 11:21 AM ET

(RTTNews) - At least 20-militants and two soldiers have reportedly been killed in the ongoing offensive launched by NATO-led troops, Saturday morning, for neutralizing Taliban's last major stronghold in Marjah town.

NATO's spokesmen confirmed the deaths saying that one died in an attack using improvised explosive device and another from small-arms attack. Both the soldiers were part of operation Mushtarak.

Taliban is currently witnessing the biggest ever offensive since it's decline in 2001, with about 15,000 US, UK, Afghan troops jointly assailing into the districts of Marjah and Nad Ali, backed by NATO air support.

The military offensive, codenamed "Mushtarak," a Dari word for "together," involves about 4,500 U.S. Marines, 1,500 Afghan troops and 300 U.S. soldiers.

The attack according to Nato official's is making good progress.

by RTT Staff Writer
20 Militants, 2 Soldiers Die In NATO's Afghan Offensive


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## fawwaxs




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## fawwaxs

NATO Afghan offensive underway | Video | Reuters.co.uk


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## fawwaxs

*NATO, Afghan Troops in Second Day of Operation in Taliban Stronghold*

A 15,000-troop NATO operation continued Sunday to press deeper into a Taliban stronghold in southern Afghanistan. 

The massive military offensive is concentrated on the farming community of Marjah in Helmand province.

U.S. officials say General Stanley McChrystal, commander of the U.S. troops in Afghanistan, will update President Barack Obama Sunday about the military operation. 

U.S. helicopters and armored vehicles began the operation Saturday when they descended on Marjah.

As many as 1,000 insurgents are thought to be entrenched in the area. U.S. troops say they encountered sporadic but "intense" resistance Saturday.

U.S. forces say they are working deliberately and slowly to clear roads of dozens of makeshift bombs as the troops advance into the area.

The offensive -- called Operation Moshtarak, which means "together" in the Dari language -- is the largest since the Taliban government was ousted in late 2001.

Afghan army officials say at least 20 Taliban militants were killed during the initial fighting.

NATO says one American and one British soldier were killed. 

Afghan, British and U.S. troops are taking part in the operation, designed to oust the Taliban from an area considered to be at the heart of the insurgency.

The United Nations reported Saturday that there has been no increase in Afghans leaving the area as a result of of the operation.

The offensive is the first since Mr. Obama ordered 30,000 additional U.S. troops to Afghanistan in December.

http://www1.voanews.com/english/news/usa/Five-Militants-Killed-in-Afghan-Offensive--84291507.html


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## S-2

News as reported for February 14-

Troops Face Gunfights And Minefields In Offensive Against Taliban In Afghanistan-WAPO Feb. 14, 2010

Marines Secure Key Areas In Marjah In Major Assault On Taliban-L.A. Times Feb. 14, 2010

British Spearhead Allied Offensive In Afghanistan-London Times Feb. 14, 2010

A Test For The Meaning Of Victory In Afghanistan-NYT Feb. 14, 2010

Two Allied Deaths In Marjah Highlight Risks-WSJ Feb. 14, 2010

Lots of photos and embedded video for those who don't like to read.

Thanks.

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## fawwaxs

Thank you. S-2

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## qsaark

Unity said:


> It is not that difficult to get rid of the poppy fields at once, GoA have always resisted the call for forcefully eradication of poppy as in these areas *poppy production is the sole source of income for the poor farmers*, removing the poppy will be equal to removing their livlihood. Otherwise it is not that difficult or costy to get rid of them by poisonign them from air.


I know its about the so called 'sole source' of income but than why hue and cry? On one hand the occupation forces/puppet Kabul regime allow the poppy (based on 'humanitarian' reason), on the other hand they complaint that Taliban/insurgents are benefiting from this. On one hand the poppy farmers are called 'poor farmers', on the other hand, they are also called the 'Taliban working in poppy fields'. 

Lets assume for a short period of time that the occupation forces/puppet Kabul regime is letting the 'poor farmers' grow poppy because that is the only source of their 'livelihood', why the poppy harvest is simply not bought out by the 'poor farmers' and destroyed by the occupation forces/puppet Kabul regime? That way, the trafficking of poppy harvest will be controlled through which (by imposing tax) the Taliban/insurgents are claimed to make money.

None of this is happening because cash starved occupation forces are not in a position to throw more cash in the black hole called 'corrupt Kabul regime'. Hence its not only Taliban/insurgents who are benefiting from poppy, but the puppet Kabul regime as much, in fact more. There were several reports on the extremely shady role of the Government officials in particularly Ahmed Wali Karzai (brother of Puppet President Karza) in the drug business.



> If you look at the poppy production in Afghanistan, the central and Northern(with the exception of badakhshan) have no or negligible poppy production, much of Western and Eastern Afghanistan are free of poppy, while in the south where the taliban have influecen there is poppy production in great deal.


Its because like every other crop, poppy does not give quality harvest in every part of the world. Some regions of Afghanistan are simply not suitable to grow poppy because of the soil and/or climate.


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## fatman17

*Marine commander says it could take weeks to fully reclaim Taliban haven*

ALFRED de MONTESQUIOU

Associated Press Writer

7:05 a.m. CST, February 14, 2010

*MARJAH, Afghanistan (AP) &#8212; It could take weeks to reclaim the Taliban stronghold of Marjah, a top Marine commander said Sunday as thousands of U.S. troops and Afghan soldiers fought for a second day in NATO's most ambitious effort yet to break the militants' grip on Afghanistan's dangerous south.*

*"That doesn't necessarily mean an intense gun battle, but it probably will be 30 days of clearing," Brig. Gen. Larry Nicholson said. "I am more than cautiously optimistic that we will get it done before that."*

Squads of Marines and Afghan soldiers occupied a majority of Marjah, but sporadic gun battles erupted as pockets of militants dug in and fought. Sniper fire forced Nicholson to duck behind an earthen bank in the northern part of the city where he toured the tip of the Marines' front line held by Lima Company, 3rd Battalion, 6th Marines.

"The fire we just took reflects how I think this will go &#8212; small pockets of sporadic fighting by small groups of very mobile individuals," he said.

Afghan officials said Sunday that at least 27 insurgents have been killed in the operation. NATO reported two troop casualties from the first day of the offensive &#8212; an American and a Briton. Seven civilians have been wounded but there were no reports of deaths, Helmand provincial spokesman Daoud Ahmadi said.

The offensive, called "Moshtarak," or "Together," is the biggest joint operation since the 2001 U.S.-led invasion of Afghanistan, with 15,000 troops involved, including some 7,500 in Marjah itself.

*Between 400 and 1,000 insurgents &#8212; including more than 100 foreign fighters &#8212; were believed to be holed up in Marjah, a town of 80,000 people that is the linchpin of the militants' logistical and opium-smuggling network in the south.*

The second day of the massive NATO offensive was marked by painstaking searches from compound to compound as Marines and Afghan troops used metal detectors and sniffer dogs to locate explosives rigged to blow.

They also encountered pockets of resistance, fighting off sniper attacks, as they moved deeper into the town.

"We're in the majority of the city at this point," said Lt. Josh Diddams, a Marine spokesman. He said the nature of the resistance has changed from the initial assault, with insurgents now holding ground in some neighborhoods.

*"We're starting to come across areas where the insurgents have actually taken up defensive positions," he said. "Initially it was more hit and run."*

Meanwhile, thousands of other British, Afghan and U.S. troops fanned out across the Nad Ali district to the north of the mud-brick town.

Explosions from controlled detonations of bombs and other explosives were being heard about every 10 minutes in the area.

"There's really a massive amount of improvised explosive devices," Nicholson said. "We thought there would be a lot, but we are finding even more than expected."

NATO forces uncovered 250 kilograms (550 pounds) of ammonium nitrate and other bomb-making materials while clearing a compound in Marjah, a coalition statement said. They also found a weapons cache in Nad Ali that included artillery rounds, pressure plates and blasting caps.

NATO said it hoped to secure Marjah, the largest town under Taliban control, set up a local government and rush in development aid in a first test of the new U.S. strategy for turning the tide of the 8-year-old war.

The United Nations said an estimated 900 families had fled the Marjah area and were registered for emergency assistance in the provincial capital of Lashkar Gah, about 20 miles (32 kilometers) away.

At least two shuras, or council meetings, have already been held with local residents &#8212; one in Nad Ali and the other in Marjah itself, NATO said in a statement. Discussions have been "good," and more are planned in coming days as part of a larger strategy to enlist community support for the NATO mission, it said.

President Barack Obama was keeping a close watch on combat operations, White House spokesman Tommy Vietor said. Gen. Stanley McChrystal, the top U.S. commander in Afghanistan was to brief Obama on Sunday.

In Marjah, most of the Marines said they would have preferred a straight-up gunbattle to the "death at every corner" crawl they faced as they made their way through the town.

"Basically, if you hear the boom, it's good. It means you're still alive after the thing goes off," said Lance Corp. Justin Hennes, 22, of Lakeland, Florida.

Local Marjah residents crept out from hiding after dawn Sunday, some reaching out to Afghan troops partnered with Marine platoons.

"Could you please take the mines out?" Mohammad Kazeem, a local pharmacist, asked the Marines through an interpreter. The entrance to his shop had been completely booby-trapped, without any way for him to re-enter his home, he said.

___

Associated Press writers Noor Khan in Kandahar, Rahim Faiez and Heidi Vogt in Kabul, and Robert Burns in Washington contributed to this report.

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## fatman17

*Coalition troops find 'minimal interference' in assault on Taliban*

From Atia Abawi, CNN 

February 14, 2010 3:09

Afghanistan offensive details

President Obama was to be briefed by national security adviser on Saturday
Afghan president urges "absolute caution," but two civilians were injured 
One Briton and one American killed in Operation Moshtarak
15,000 multinational troops take part in effort to attack Taliban in area

Marjah, Afghanistan (CNN) -- The major coalition assault against the Taliban in southern Afghanistan claimed the lives of two coalition troops, but military officials regard the hours-old push in war-ravaged Helmand province as very promising.

"So far, so good," said British military spokesman Maj. Gen. Gordon Messenger, who told reporters in London that commanders are "very pleased" with the siege in the Marjah region, a Taliban-dominated agricultural area dotted with villages.

He said key objectives such as securing key bridges and roads were being reached with "minimal interference" by Taliban militants unable to put up a "coherent response."

"The Taliban appear confused and disoriented," Messenger said, but tempered his optimism with the reminder that the operation is not yet done.

A U.S. military official confirmed one U.S. Marine was killed in small arms fire, and a British soldier was killed in an explosion.

President Obama was following the progress of the operation and was to speak to National Security Adviser Gen. Jim Jones about it later in the day, said White House spokesman Tommy Vietor.

Jones recently completed a five-day trip to Pakistan and Afghanistan, where he met with senior Afghan, U.S., and International Security Assistance Force-Afghanistan leadership and traveled to Kabul, Kandahar, Jalalabad, and Panjshir.



Coalition forces carry out Operation Moshtarak The terrain is so tough that four lightly wounded troops whose injuries normally wouldn't need medical evacuation had to be airlifted for treatment.

One NATO official, Flight Commander Wendy Wheadon, said forces have discovered large amounts of explosives, such as 155-mm artillery shells, 10 improvised explosive devices and bullets from a Soviet-made antiaircraft weapon. They also discovered 2 kilograms of heroin.

*Peter Bergen: Kandahar, not Marjah, is game-changer*

Maj. Gen. Messenger said a number of improvised explosive devices have been identified by the population.

In an effort to avoid civilian casualties, NATO forces announced the offensive before it started to alert citizens to take cover. In the past few days, forces from Afghanistan, Britain and other nations conducted air and ground operations to prepare for the assault. They also dropped leaflets in and around Marjah warning residents not to allow the Taliban to enter their homes. And meetings with local leaders, or shuras, have been held as NATO forces tried to get Afghans on their side, the British military official told CNN.

Afghan President Hamid Karzai on Saturday urged Afghan and international troops to exercise "absolute caution" and ensure there were no civilian casualties. However, there were at least two civilian injuries -- two teens whose house was taken over by the Taliban and used to attack U.S. troops, the Marines said. Four coalition troops were injured.

More on Operation Moshtarak from Afghanistan

The coalition said its troops expected to confront up to 1,000 entrenched Taliban fighters. It expects foreign Taliban fighters to battle to the death, and is preparing for local Taliban members in Marjah to try to escape. Roads, bridges and marketplaces are being secured while compounds are being searched, the British military official said.

Key challenges to the offensive now is determining the strength of the insurgency left in the area and whether after the offensive Afghans will stick with their government.

Officials hope Afghan forces and the government will be able to maintain control and generate the allegiance of the citizenry and provide farmers an alternative to growing the poppy that pervades the region.

Wheadon said forces have already begun working with local leaders to begin the transition of authority as troops move into Marjah, a place thought to be the last Taliban stronghold in the southern Afghanistan province of Helmand.

Messenger said tribal councils have been set up welcoming the operations. He cited one of the shuras in one area where 150 tribal elders gathered.

"NATO sees this as a success," Messenger said. "The elders believe ISAF is here to stay."

Journalist Mati Matiullah and Correspondents Nic Robertson,Frederik Pleitgen and Barbara Starr contributed to this report


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## Ahmad

*
I know its about the so called 'sole source' of income but than why hue and cry?*

It is because poppy production causes all sort of problems for Afganistan. It is the sole income for some people and gov is trying to replace with it something legal.
*
On one hand the occupation forces/puppet Kabul regime allow the poppy (based on 'humanitarian' reason), on the other hand they complaint that Taliban/insurgents are benefiting from this.*

Look, if I dont say anything bad about your gov, you dont have the right to badmouth my gov and call it puppet. Hope the admins see this and warn you about it. Secondly, GoA is not allowing people to grow poppy, but they are trying hard to replace it with something else by giving people more choices. We had high rate of poppy prodution in the north before, but by successfully applying specific programmes ,the north is now free of opium, especially Balkh province. and yes the taliban are benefiting from this illegal trade thats why the gov and international community want to put an end to it, but they dont want this to happen in a revolutionary way.

*
On one hand the poppy farmers are called 'poor farmers', on the other hand, they are also called the 'Taliban working in poppy fields'. *

Nobody is mixing up the farmers with the talibn, it is only your notion.

*
Lets assume for a short period of time that the occupation forces/puppet Kabul regime is letting the 'poor farmers' grow poppy because that is the only source of their 'livelihood', why the poppy harvest is simply not bought out by the 'poor farmers' and destroyed by the occupation forces/puppet Kabul regime? That way, the trafficking of poppy harvest will be controlled through which (by imposing tax) the Taliban/insurgents are claimed to make money.*

Nobody is letting anyone by choice to grow poppy, they grow it and the gov dont like it and that does not mean that the gov should get rid of it at once and leave the farmers with nothing to survive on, instead they are applying programmes to give the farmers more choice, Gulab Mangal a successful(compare to the previouse ones) gov of Helmand has managed to reduce poppy in helmand by 30 percent this year, it wasnt by force, but giving the farmers more choice to switch from poppy to other things.
*
Its because like every other crop, poppy does not give quality harvest in every part of the world. Some regions of Afghanistan are simply not feasible to grow poppy because of the soil and/or climate.*

in the whole north we had the history of poppy fields, so this theory does not apply there or west/east of the country which are also almost poppy free. in some other places of the world you might be right.

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## waraich66

US Marines under fire in Marjah operation

Sunday, 14 Feb, 2010
font-size small font-size largefont-sizeprint email share
A US Marine from Bravo Company of the 1st Battalion, 6th Marines runs during a heavy gun battle in the town of Marjah. &#8212;Reuters Photo
World
US troop surge in Afghanistan to begin next week
US troop surge in Afghanistan to begin next week

MARJAH: US Marines came under intense fire on Sunday after taking over a building in the heart of a Taliban stronghold targeted by a Nato-led offensive designed to put the Afghan government back in charge.

Taliban fighters unleashed automatic gunfire at Nato helicopters flying in and out of the town of Marjah, and fired on Marines at a ceremony to raise the Afghan flag over a building to mark progress in the offensive.

Captain Ryan Sparks compared the intensity of the fighting to the US-led offensive against militants in the Iraqi town of Fallujah in 2004.

&#8220;In Fallujah, it was just as intense. But there, we started from the north and worked down to the south. In Marjah, we&#8217;re coming in from different locations and working toward the centre, so we&#8217;re taking fire from all angles,&#8221; Sparks said.

The offensive, one of Nato&#8217;s biggest against the Taliban since the Afghan war began in 2001, is an early test of US

Unlike Fallujah, where massive US firepower demolished the city and left great bitterness against the US-backed Iraqi government, the Marjah assault aims to eliminate militants while building goodwill for Afghan forces who will take over the area.

Marines in helicopters landed in Marjah district, the last big Taliban stronghold in Helmand province, on Saturday at the start of a campaign to impose government control on rebel-held areas before US forces start a planned 2011 drawdown.

&#8220;I have always dreamed of raising the Afghanistan flag over Marjah,&#8221; said 22-year-old Afghan soldier Almast Khan at the flag ceremony, before Marines protecting the building started coming under fire.

US forces fired mortar rounds against a Taliban position on Sunday, and the militants fired a round back which landed in the Marines&#8217; compound but failed to explode. The Marines responded by firing rockets at the suspected militant position.

A senior Afghan army general in southern Afghanistan, Sher Mohammad Zazai, told Reuters on Sunday that between 30 to 35 insurgents had been killed since the operation in Marjah and the nearby Nad Ali districts started.

Talaban will teach lesson to US-NATO forces, they will forget fallujah lolzzzzzzzzzzz

look at face of US soldier running for cover his @zz whacked

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect...-marines-under-fire-in-marjah-operation-ha-03


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## qsaark

Unity said:


> Look, if I dont say anything bad about your gov, you dont have the right to badmouth my gov and call it puppet.


Your government *is* a puppet so long the occupation forces are there and even your president needs their protection. You don't want your Government to be called puppet, derive out the occupation forces and take control of your own country. Besides, its not me, a large majority of Afghans (who are fighting against the occupation forces) also call it a puppet regime.



> Hope the admins see this and warn you about it.


I'll wait for that warning; though I believe that most admins are not brain washed to a level where they'll start recognizing a puppet regime a legitimate one which is primarily composed of criminal warlords, and stooges who before the occupation did not even have the Afghan passports and were mainly residing in the western countries for decades. These are the same stooges who when their motherland was invaded by the Soviets, decided either to side with occupation forces (puppet Babrak Karmel and Najeeb regimes in Kabul) or opted to leave the country instead of fighting against the occupation forces



> We had high rate of poppy prodution in the north before, but by successfully applying specific programmes ,the north is now free of opium, especially Balkh province.


It will come back you watch; the cash starved occupation forces will not continue to throw money for these compensations for ever. 



> and yes the taliban are benefiting from this illegal trade thats why the gov and international community want to put an end to it, but they dont want this to happen in a revolutionary way.


So do the corrupt officials of the puppet regime. I am not saying this, even the most biased Western press is also accepting this.



> Nobody is mixing up the farmers with the talibn, it is only your notion.


This is from your beloved master: "_Finally, many of their local fighters are also farmers whom derive much of their livlihood from opium. Taliban operations are timed to permit their fighters the opportunity to work their fields.

The taliban are knee-deep in dope and have been for years. Your comment is ludicrous in the face of the evidence to the contrary. 

You might do yourself a favor and save the links. You need the education, it seems_". 



> Nobody is letting anyone by choice to grow poppy, they grow it and the gov dont like it and that does not mean that the gov should get rid of it at once and leave the farmers with nothing to survive on...


Why the occupation forces/puppet Kabul regime don't buy and destroy the harvest? 



> ..instead they are applying programmes to give the farmers more choice, Gulab Mangal a successful(compare to the previouse ones) gov of Helmand has managed to reduce poppy in helmand by 30 percent this year, it wasnt by force, but giving the farmers more choice to switch from poppy to other things.


Programs such as? What kind of programs are practical in a war torn country?



> In the whole north we had the history of poppy fields, so this theory does not apply there or west/east of the country which are also almost poppy free. in some other places of the world you might be right.


I don't know of the history of poppy fields in the mountains. But even if that is true, its because of continuous pouring of money into those regions which is not sustainable.

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## Spring Onion

updates on Operation Mushriq 


*NATO: Troops miss target, kill 12 Afghan civilians*


By ALFRED de MONTESQUIOU, Associated Press Writer Alfred De Montesquiou, Associated Press Writer &#8211; 3 mins ago
MARJAH, Afghanistan &#8211; Twelve Afghans died Sunday when two rockets fired at insurgents missed their target and struck a house during the second day of NATO's most ambitious effort yet to break the militants' grip on the country's dangerous south.

Thousands of NATO and Afghan troops encountered pockets of resistance, fighting off sniper attacks, as they moved deeper into Marjah, a town of 80,000 people that is the linchpin of the militants' logistical and opium-smuggling network in Helmand province.

Marines and Afghan troops used metal detectors and sniffer dogs, searching compound to compound for explosives rigged to explode. Blasts from controlled detonations could be heard about every 10 minutes north of Marjah.

Afghan and international troops want to secure the area, set up a local government and rush in development aid in what is seen as the first test of the new U.S. strategy for turning the tide of the 8-year-old war. The civilian deaths were a blow to NATO and the Afghan government's attempts to win the allegiance of Afghans and get them to turn away from the insurgents.

NATO said two rockets from a High Mobility Artillery Rocket System were aimed at insurgents firing on Afghan and NATO forces, but stuck 1,000 feet (300 meters) off their intended target.

"We deeply regret this tragic loss of life," said Gen. Stanley McChrystal, the top commander in Afghanistan. "The current operation in central Helmand is aimed at restoring security and stability to this vital area of Afghanistan. It's regrettable that in the course of our joint efforts, innocent lives were lost."

McChrystal said he had apologized to Afghan President Hamid Karzai for the accident and had suspended the use of the rocket system until the incident can be reviewed.

Karzai issued a statement minutes earlier saying 10 members of the same family died when the rocket hit a house in Marjah. He ordered an investigation into who fired the rocket. Before the offensive began on Saturday, Karzai pleaded with Afghan and foreign military leaders to be "seriously careful for the safety of civilians."

On the first day of the offensive, NATO reported two troop casualties &#8212; an American and a Briton. Afghan officials said at least 27 insurgents have been killed in the operation.

The offensive, called "Moshtarak," or "Together," is the biggest joint operation since the 2001 U.S.-led invasion of Afghanistan, with 15,000 troops involved, including some 7,500 in Marjah itself. Most of the NATO forces taking part are American or British.

Between 400 and 1,000 insurgents &#8212; including more than 100 foreign fighters &#8212; were believed to be holed up in Marjah.

"We're in the majority of the city at this point," said Lt. Josh Diddams, a Marine spokesman. He said the nature of the resistance has changed from the initial assault, with insurgents now holding ground in some neighborhoods.

"We're starting to come across areas where the insurgents have actually taken up defensive positions," he said. "Initially it was more hit and run."

It could take weeks to completely reclaim Marjah, according to Brig. Gen. Larry Nicholson, a top Marine commander in the south.

"That doesn't necessarily mean an intense gun battle, but it probably will be 30 days of clearing," Nicholson said. "I am more than cautiously optimistic that we will get it done before that."

Sniper fire forced Nicholson to duck behind an earthen bank in the northern part of the town where he toured the tip of the Marines' front line held by Lima Company, 3rd Battalion, 6th Marines.

"The fire we just took reflects how I think this will go &#8212; small pockets of sporadic fighting by small groups of very mobile individuals," he said.

He said insurgents riddled the area with explosives. "We thought there would be a lot," he said, "but we are finding even more than expected." 

NATO forces uncovered 250 kilograms (550 pounds) of ammonium nitrate and other bomb-making materials while clearing a compound in Marjah, a coalition statement said. They also found a weapons cache in Nad Ali, which lies to the north, that included artillery rounds, pressure plates and blasting caps. 

The United Nations said an estimated 900 families had fled the Marjah area and were registered for emergency assistance in the provincial capital of Lashkar Gah, about 20 miles (32 kilometers) away. 

At least two shuras, or council meetings, have already been held with local residents &#8212; one in Nad Ali and the other in Marjah itself, NATO said in a statement. Discussions have been "good," and more are planned in coming days as part of a larger strategy to enlist community support for the NATO mission, it said. 

In Marjah, most of the Marines said they would have preferred a straight-up gunbattle to the "death at every corner" crawl they faced as they made their way through the town. 

"Basically, if you hear the boom, it's good. It means you're still alive after the thing goes off," said Lance Corp. Justin Hennes, 22, of Lakeland, Florida. 

Local Marjah residents crept out from hiding after dawn Sunday, some reaching out to Afghan troops partnered with Marine platoons. 

"Could you please take the mines out?" Mohammad Kazeem, a local pharmacist, asked the Marines through an interpreter. The entrance to his shop had been completely booby-trapped, without any way for him to re-enter his home, he said. 

___ 

Associated Press writers Noor Khan in Kandahar, Rahim Faiez in Helmand province and Heidi Vogt in Kabul contributed to this report.

NATO: Troops miss target, kill 12 Afghan civilians - Yahoo! News
---------------------------------------


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## pkd

*NATO killed 12 civilians in Afghan offensive*

Nato has confirmed that two rockets fired at militants during its offensive in Helmand, south Afghanistan, missed their target and killed 12 civilians.

The rockets struck a house in Marjah as thousands of Nato troops continued their operations to oust the Taliban. 

Nato's commander Gen Stanley McChrystal said that "we deeply regret this tragic loss of life". 

Coalition forces are aiming to build on gains in Operation Moshtarak, tackling snipers and booby-traps on day two. 

A third Nato death related to the operation has also been confirmed. 

Operation Moshtarak, meaning "together" in the Dari language, is the biggest coalition attack since the Taliban fell in 2001. 

The operation is also the first big test of US President Barack Obama's new "surge" strategy for Afghanistan. 

Rocket system suspended

Civilian casualties have been a key concern for the Nato-led offensive. 

The regions targeted were leafleted well in advance to minimise casualties. 

President Hamid Karzai has called for an investigation into the civilian deaths, his office said. Mr Karzai had urged Nato ahead of the operation to be careful to avoid civilian casualties. 

His office said in a statement that it believed at least 10 of those killed were from the same family. 

Nato said in a statement: "Two rockets from a High Mobility Artillery Rocket System launched at insurgents firing upon Afghan and [Nato] forces impacted approximately 300 metres (980ft) off their intended target, killing 12 civilians." 

Gen McChrystal said: "The current operation in Central Helmand is aimed at restoring security and stability to this vital area of Afghanistan. 

"It's regrettable that in the course of our joint efforts, innocent lives were lost. 

"We extend our heartfelt sympathies and will ensure we do all we can to avoid future incidents." 

The use of the the rocket system involved has been suspended pending a review. 

Meanwhile, US, UK and Afghan forces have faced gun battles and numerous booby-traps on day two of the offensive in Marjah and Nad Ali in Helmand province. 

The BBC's Frank Gardner, at Nato's Kandahar headquarters, says that building by building, compound by compound, US Marines and British troops are trying to clear the two districts of hundreds, possibly thousands, of booby traps planted by the insurgents. 

But, our correspondent says, the real challenge is still to come: building lasting security for the residents of central Helmand. 

Many residents are believed to be cautious about welcoming government forces for fear they will soon depart again. 

Casualties

The operation began before dawn on Saturday when more than 15,000 troops flew into central Helmand. 

American forces, led by 4,000 Marines, are focusing on Marjah, while 4,000 British troops are in Nad Ali. 

A large Afghan force, as well as Canadians, Danes and Estonians, is also involved. 

Three Isaf deaths related to Operation Moshtarak have been confirmed. 

On Saturday, a British soldier, of 1st Battalion Grenadier Guards, died in a bomb blast in Nad Ali, while a US soldier was killed by gunfire in Marjah. 

On Sunday, another service member was killed in an IED attack. 

At least 20 Taliban fighters were killed and another 11 detained on Saturday, an Afghan commander said. 

'Going well'

At a Ministry of Defence briefing in London, Maj Gen Gordon Messenger said the operation had so far "gone to plan". 

"Nothing has stopped the mission from progressing," he said, although UK troops had taken small-arms fire. 

AFP quoted President Obama's top security adviser, Gen James Jones, as also saying the offensive was "going well". 

President Obama will be briefed on Sunday by the US commander in Afghanistan, Gen Stanley McChrystal. 

BBC News - Afghan civilians killed in strike by Nato rockets


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## Thomas

MARJAH, Afghanistan  Taliban insurgents tried to overrun a U.S. Marine outpost with a combination of rocket-propelled grenades and homicide bombers in a brazen attack just after sundown on Sunday.

The Marines and Afghan soldiers fended off the assault, shooting the homicide attackers before they had a chance to detonate their weapons.

The attack took place on the second day of a major offensive to wrest control of this town of 75,000 people from the Taliban insurgents who have dominated it for years.

Also on Sunday, the North Atlantic Treaty Organization said that coalition rockets missed their intended target and killed 12 Afghan civilians.

The Marines and Afghan soldiers landed by helicopter on the first day of the offensive and set up camp at the Koru Chareh bazaar, a central commercial district in Marjah. On Sunday, the troops raised the Afghan flag above the bazaar to send the message that the town was gradually reverting to Kabul's control after years of being ruled by the Taliban.

Around 7 p.m., however, insurgents launched a barrage of rocket-propelled grenades at the entrance to the outpost. Three men then rushed toward the opening, but the Marines killed them by tossing a volley of hand grenades before they were able to set off their explosives, according to Lt. Col. Calvin Worth, commander of the 1st Battalion, 6th Marine Regiment.

"It's obvious the enemy is trying last-ditch efforts," said Lt. Col. Worth, whose 1,500-strong battalion is spearheading the Marjah offensive. His Company B was the target of Sunday's attack.

Lt. Col. Worth was unsure if there were more fighters waiting to assault the Marine position had the suicide bombers succeeded in getting inside. No Marines or Afghan servicemen were reported injured in the attack.


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## sherdil76

qsaark said:


> Who are the governors of these provinces? Taliban?
> 
> Why occupation forces did not destroy the poppy crop? Because several Div of Taliban Army protecting those fields and had installed SA300/400 around?
> 
> What the drones and spy satellites doing? Maybe fields were under underground.
> 
> Why the transportation of the harvest could not be intercepted and traffickers controlled? Because there were underground massive tunnels opening into neighboring Pakistan.
> 
> Thirty six percent reduction? I am all too aware of these statistical gimmicks, why it was not down to zero when the occupation forces had all means available to them to do so? After eight year long occupation its only 36% down.....





they simply dont accept the reality and denying their own published information. 







taliban bring the peace in sfghanistan though they did some mistakes, like every govt in rest of the world. west which highlights the punishment, especially to women by taliban but they dont dare to speak about chopping off the heads of the criminals in KSA. Strange!

concept of Punishment is to impose something unpleasant or aversive on a person in response to disobedience, defiance, or behaviour deemed morally wrong by law. which act as a measure of prevention to those who are contemplating illicit/unwanted activity.

for Muslims our law (and also the code of life) is what Allah (in Quran) and Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him) have told us so are our punishments. 

and that fear of punishment made it possible to cut the 200k acres of poppy cultivation to less than 20k in just one year. which nobody could ever achieve. but their big mouths never stop talking dirty about Taliban.

regarding the current occupation and temporary cleansing operations, i agree with what my-ex boss used to say

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## waraich66

Afghanistan: Taliban 'vanish' before Nato offensive

It is estimated there were between 400 and 1,000 militants based in southern Helmand before Nato forces launched Operation Moshtarak. 

Correspondents say most of the Taliban appear to have scattered, leaving behind many roadside bombs. 

However the fear is they may be waiting to regroup and stage attacks later. 

Frank Gardner reports from Kandahar. 

15000+ soldiers searching for enemy

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## Ahmad

sherdil76 said:


> taliban bring the pease in sfghanistan though they did some mistakes, like every govt in rest of the world.



They did some mistakes? Is it safe if I say the TTP are good organization and good people, but they have done some mistakes just like the others?


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## Ahmad

Fundamentalist said:


> Afghanistan: Taliban 'vanish' before Nato offensive
> 
> It is estimated there were between 400 and 1,000 militants based in southern Helmand before Nato forces launched Operation Moshtarak.
> 
> Correspondents say most of the Taliban appear to have scattered, leaving behind many roadside bombs.
> 
> However the fear is they may be waiting to regroup and stage attacks later.
> 
> Frank Gardner reports from Kandahar.
> 
> 15000+ soldiers searching for enemy




didnt the TTP vanish in Swat and SW? remember? they are still powerful in pakistan and capable of killing people just like Afghani Taliban, ttp's base of support among the Pakhtoons is still strong especially the FATA. they dont face the enemy but make the civilians a shield and other places attack them like the Afghani taliban.


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## S-2

Fascinating graphs Sherdil76.

*"Thirty six percent reduction? I am all too aware of these statistical gimmicks..."*

You seem to be regressing with time. Last I saw 2007. Where's 2009? Too gimmicky?

*"...their big mouths never stop talking dirty about Taliban."*

The taliban are scum. There's so much to talk dirty about.

*"...concept of Punishment is to impose something unpleasant or aversive on a person in response to disobedience, defiance, or behavior deemed morally wrong by law. which act as a measure of prevention to those who are contemplating illicit/unwanted activity" *







She got your message loud and clear. She'd like to say she's sorry for attending school and doing something "..._deemed morally wrong by law_" but it hurts too much. Can she have her face back now?

Thanks.


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## TaimiKhan

Unity said:


> didnt the TTP vanish in Swat and SW? remember? they are still powerful in pakistan and capable of killing people just like Afghani Taliban, *ttp's base of support among the Pakhtoons is still strong especially the FATA*. they dont face the enemy but make the civilians a shield and other places attack them like the Afghani taliban.



A very wrong illusion you have got there. 

TTP never had a strong base of support among the Pushtuns, their base of support in the areas where they were was based on the fear they had brought with themselves by killing the elders of the local tribes and killing of anyone who opposed them.

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## Always Neutral

qsaark said:


> I know its about the so called 'sole source' of income but than why hue and cry? On one hand the occupation forces/puppet Kabul regime allow the poppy (based on 'humanitarian' reason), on the other hand they complaint that Taliban/insurgents are benefiting from this. On one hand the poppy farmers are called 'poor farmers', on the other hand, they are also called the 'Taliban working in poppy fields'.
> 
> Lets assume for a short period of time that the occupation forces/puppet Kabul regime is letting the 'poor farmers' grow poppy because that is the only source of their 'livelihood', why the poppy harvest is simply not bought out by the 'poor farmers' and destroyed by the occupation forces/puppet Kabul regime? That way, the trafficking of poppy harvest will be controlled through which (by imposing tax) the Taliban/insurgents are claimed to make money.
> 
> None of this is happening because cash starved occupation forces are not in a position to throw more cash in the black hole called 'corrupt Kabul regime'. Hence its not only Taliban/insurgents who are benefiting from poppy, but the puppet Kabul regime as much, in fact more. There were several reports on the extremely shady role of the Government officials in particularly Ahmed Wali Karzai (brother of Puppet President Karza) in the drug business.
> 
> Its because like every other crop, poppy does not give quality harvest in every part of the world. Some regions of Afghanistan are simply not suitable to grow poppy because of the soil and/or climate.



Dear Q,

There are lot of reasons why we wish to turn a blind eye for this moment about the poppy cultivation but that does not mean we are not evolving other strategies to combat them at another level.

I know for a fact that we are going after the International Financiers and the middle men involved in this trade in Europe, Pakistan and AF. It is better to get these guys and choke their funds than deprive for the moment a poor farmer of his livelihood.

The US was vastly mislead by Gen M about the capabilities of the PA in taking over SWAT and NWFP. Its only of late that the PA has realised that by the time they get the old kind of strategic depth, Pakistan in these changed times would never be able to control its own territory let alone AF.

Just last week you have lost a gunship and a brave Brigadier for failure to control your once blue eyed boys the TTP.

Both side of the borders are lawless areas and unless PA has 100 &#37; writ on its own territory the problem of drugs will not be eradicated. The PA has reluctantly agreed that they are overstretched in their own country so expecting ANA to become effective from day one is an unfair comment.

Regards


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## Always Neutral

taimikhan said:


> A very wrong illusion you have got there.
> 
> TTP never had a strong base of support among the Pushtuns, their base of support in the areas where they were was based on the fear they had brought with themselves by killing the elders of the local tribes and killing of anyone who opposed them.



Just curious if TTP were so un-popular why were they the blue eyed boys of the PA a year back. I even remember a Maj. Gen giving a press release stating that.

Regards


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## waraich66

Unity said:


> They did some mistakes? Is it safe if I say the TTP are good organization and good people, but they have done some mistakes just like the others?



TTP and AT have different agenda and mission , which you fail to understand.

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## waraich66

Surprise tactic in Afghanistan offensive befuddles TalibanArticle
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By SAEED SHAH AND JANAN ZERAK - McClatchy Newspapers 
LASHKAR GAR, Afghanistan -- U.S. Marines and Afghan forces were airlifted over the Taliban-laid minefields into the center of town in Marjah Saturday, apparently surprising the insurgents and taking strategic positions from them, according to military officials.

Although billed as a major confrontation between the international coalition and Afghan forces and the Taliban, the first day of the offensive in the southern Helmand province saw only sporadic fighting. Two coalition soldiers were killed, along with about 20 insurgents. It was the biggest assault since the fall of the Taliban regime in 2001.

The helicopter airlift into the heart of the city of 80,000 started around 2 a.m. and allowed the troops to quickly establish 11 posts throughout Marjah, while the bulk of the 15,000-man force carefully picked its way over land. 

The operation had been deliberately telegraphed in advance for weeks but the military tactics still seem to have surprised the enemy.

"We appear to have caught the insurgents on the hop. He appears to be completely dislocated," Major General Nick Carter, the British officer who is in charge of operations in south Afghanistan, told reporters at his base in Kandahar. "I'm much encouraged by the way things are going but I'm also conscious that this is only the end of the beginning."

Marjah is the last Taliban stronghold in Helmand and also the hub for a thriving heroin business in the province, which fuels the insurgents.

The U.S.-led NATO offensive, called Moshtarak, which means "together," is a joint operation between the International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) and Afghan army. It is designed to showcase both Afghan capability and the coalition's new approach to the war.

The extra manpower for Afghanistan announced by President Barack Obama is designed to allow the coalition to not only take territory from the insurgents but now to hold it, while Afghan police and government services come in to make the population feel secure and encourage their interest in the benefits of a stable state presence there.

The majority of Marjah's residents have not evacuated, so the coalition warned remaining residents to stay inside their homes. Locals interviewed by McClatchy claimed that the Taliban were preventing residents from leaving town. The Taliban seemed intent on using homes as firing positions.

As the military attacks against the Taliban have increased in recent months, civilian causalities also have risen.

The Taliban strategy for defending Marjah seemed designed to heighten civilian casualties, thereby undermining the new U.S. strategy for stabilizing Afghanistan, which is focused on "protecting the population."

Hajji Naimat made it from Marjah Saturday morning only by taking a circuitous route, first diverting south to Nawa, before heading north to the provincial capital Lashkar Gah, where several hundred families have taken refuge.

"The area is surrounded by ISAF and ANA (Afghan National Army)," Naimat told McClatchy. "The Taliban are not allowing us to go out (of Marjah). It was only with great difficulty that we made it here."

"Our situation is very bad. The center (of Marjah) is in the hands of ANA and ISAF. We are not allowed to come out of our houses. When the Taliban came to enter our house, we told them: 'For God's sake, to leave us alone,' " said Hajji Sakhidad, speaking by phone from Marjah.

Sakhidad said that, as they were turning the Taliban away from their door, gunfire some distance away injured his cousin.

One British soldier was killed by a roadside bomb while patrolling in a vehicle. The other ISAF casualty, whose nationality was not released, was killed by small arms fire. Initial reports are that he is American.

Separately, a roadside bomb killed three U.S. soldiers in the neighboring province of Kandahar, another violent area, which may be next for a concerted offensive.

In Kabul, Afghanistan's defense minister Abdul Rahim Wardak said the offensive is going according to plan.

"(Marjah) is mined heavily, so we have to be slow. We have to be slow in the process of clearing that area. But so far our advance is as per schedule. There has been sporadic resistance and firing from here and there," Wardak told reporters in Kabul.

The Taliban were given weeks of warning of the operation, in an apparent deliberate attempt to pressure them into simply leaving the town. That provided plenty of time for them to mine and booby-trap the city and the surrounding villages. It is unclear how many of the estimated 2,000 Taliban fighters in Marjah stuck around to confront the Afghan and coalition armies, but, if they followed their typical guerrilla tactics, most would have fled.

Wardak said: "Some of them (Taliban) have already left, there might be several hundred still." The defense minister said troops found burnt copies of the Koran strewn about in Marjah, seemingly in an attempt to malign the foreign soldiers. The desecration of the Muslim holy book caused recent riots in Afghanistan.

"The enemy is playing with people's emotions," Wardak said.

Some 15,000 soldiers are involved in the Marjah operation, with the British soldiers focused on the surrounding villages of Nad-e Ali district. A civilian effort, including Afghans and others from the international community, is supposed to follow just behind the troops.

(Saeed Shah and Janan Zerak are McClatchy special correspondents. Shah reported from Kabul, and Zerak from Lashkar Gah, the capital of Helmand Province.)


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## Always Neutral

taimikhan said:


> A very wrong illusion you have got there.
> 
> TTP never had a strong base of support among the Pushtuns, their base of support in the areas where they were was based on the fear they had brought with themselves by killing the elders of the local tribes and killing of anyone who opposed them.



Based on current indications, no amount of troop consolidation and strategy change can yield a reversal of trends in FATA. For any turnaround, the Pakistani state needs to initiate a radical course correction. *The state cannot neutralize the insurgency in FATA or elsewhere within the existing ideological paradigms, articulated eloquently by ISI chief Lt. Gen. Ahmed Shuja Pasha, who described Taliban leader Baitullah Mehsud - the Pakistan Army's most relentless tormentor - as a "true patriot". *Shuja Pasha also defended the Taliban in an interview with Der Spiegel, stating: "Shouldn't they be allowed to think and say what they please? They believe that jihad is their obligation. Isn't that freedom of opinion?" 

From patriot to being hit by a US patriot missile. The PA / ISI got it so wrong.

Regards

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## waraich66

Unity said:


> didnt the TTP vanish in Swat and SW? remember? they are still powerful in pakistan and capable of killing people just like Afghani Taliban, ttp's base of support among the Pakhtoons is still strong especially the FATA. they dont face the enemy but make the civilians a shield and other places attack them like the Afghani taliban.



US-NATO general fail to understand the Talaban tactics even after 8 years , why should talaban stay in area to face fire power of ISAF big war machine , they will allow the ducks to land on waters then do just hunting 

After failure of operation US general will start blame , we dont have enough soldiers and weapons or our weapons are too heavy to carry, we need more training bla bla bla ----


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## Always Neutral

Fundamentalist said:


> TTP and AT have different agenda and mission , which you fail to understand.



Based on current indications, no amount of troop consolidation and strategy change can yield a reversal of trends in FATA. For any turnaround, the Pakistani state needs to initiate a radical course correction. *The state cannot neutralize the insurgency in FATA or elsewhere within the existing ideological paradigms, articulated eloquently by ISI chief Lt. Gen. Ahmed Shuja Pasha, who described Taliban leader Baitullah Mehsud - the Pakistan Army's most relentless tormentor - as a "true patriot". *Shuja Pasha also defended the Taliban in an interview with Der Spiegel, stating: "Shouldn't they be allowed to think and say what they please? They believe that jihad is their obligation. Isn't that freedom of opinion?" 

Not only us but the august company includes the current director of ISI. 

Regards


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## Always Neutral

Fundamentalist said:


> US-NATO general fail to understand the Talaban tactics even after 8 years , why should talaban stay in area to face fire power of ISAF big war machine , they will allow the ducks to land on waters then do just hunting



Unfortunately the ducks are doing the hunting here.

Regards


----------



## Ahmad

Fundamentalist said:


> US-NATO general fail to understand the Talaban tactics even after 8 years , why should talaban stay in area to face fire power of ISAF big war machine , they will allow the ducks to land on waters then do just hunting
> 
> After failure of operation US general will start blame , we dont have enough soldiers and weapons or our weapons are too heavy to carry, we need more training bla bla bla ----



Why do you sidestep the TTP issue? didnt they melt away and are still capable of carrying out all sort of powerful attacks? cant you see the parallels?


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## waraich66

Always Neutral said:


> Based on current indications, no amount of troop consolidation and strategy change can yield a reversal of trends in FATA. For any turnaround, the Pakistani state needs to initiate a radical course correction. *The state cannot neutralize the insurgency in FATA or elsewhere within the existing ideological paradigms, articulated eloquently by ISI chief Lt. Gen. Ahmed Shuja Pasha, who described Taliban leader Baitullah Mehsud - the Pakistan Army's most relentless tormentor - as a "true patriot". *Shuja Pasha also defended the Taliban in an interview with Der Spiegel, stating: "Shouldn't they be allowed to think and say what they please? They believe that jihad is their obligation. Isn't that freedom of opinion?"
> 
> Not only us but the august company includes the current director of ISI.
> 
> Regards



Non sense

We are not discussing TTP here , please dont derail the post topic


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## waraich66

Unity said:


> Why do you sidestep the TTP issue? didnt they melt away and are still capable of carrying out all sort of powerful attacks? cant you see the parallels?



Non sense 

War between TTP and PA is different issue , please reply to my post dont try to derail the post topic


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## Always Neutral

Fundamentalist said:


> Non sense
> 
> We are not discussing TTP here , please dont derail the post topic



No one is derailing the topic. You made a comment on the agendas of TTP and Taliban in this very thread and when i exposed the same which shows even the PA did not find anything wrong with TTP initially and hence you are at a loss with words.

Regards


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## waraich66

There is a saying here, which is quite famous at this point, that basically, the West has the watches and the Taliban have the time


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## Ahmad

Fundamentalist said:


> There is a saying here, which is quite famous at this point, that basically, the West has the watches and the Taliban have the time



All they can do is to kill innocent afghans, nothing else. rememer that the TTP has also got time.


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## Always Neutral

Fundamentalist said:


> There is a saying here, which is quite famous at this point, that basically, the West has the watches and the Taliban have the time



And so does the ANA. Even if we withdraw troops from offensive duty rest assured we will not be withdrawing from our support roles. The ANA will hunt the scum and we help by bombing them.

Regards


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## waraich66

Always Neutral said:


> And so does the ANA. Even if we withdraw troops from offensive duty rest assured we will not be withdrawing from our support roles. The ANA will hunt the scum and we help by bombing them.
> 
> Regards



Are you sure ANA could the job which ISAF failed to do in eight years?

Student is reflection of teacher lolzzzzzzzz


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## Always Neutral

Fundamentalist said:


> Are you sure ANA could the job which ISAF failed to do in eight years?
> 
> Student is reflection of teacher lolzzzzzzzz



Well ANA has as much or even better chance with our backing at burying this Talibani scum 6 feet under than the FC has with PA's backing. 

Have u read what Kiyani said recently ? 

Pick your side your either with the Taliban (TTP is a proud part of it) or be with the rest of the proud Afghani people and the world.

30 scums dead against 2 brave boys lost by the ISAF, it must rankle you and other keyboard jehadists.

ok the talibani scum will get lucky once in a while but even TTP had its day when they downed the Cobra and killed the brave Brigadier. These are facts of life.

Regards


----------



## S-2

Errant Rocket Strike Kills Civilians In Afghanistan-NYT Feb.15, 2010

Sure as sh!t what we didn't want to happen, happened. Anywhere from 10-12 killed and some wounded. It sounds like the call for fire was initiated by C Co. 3/6 Marines with whom C.J. Chivers of the NYT is embedded. His commentary follows a day of running gun battles through the fields and compounds of Marjah.

Hopefully, that'll be the last of it. HIMARS use has been restricted and I can only speculate that with its purported accuracy there was either a target location error or a weapon malfunction.

Here's more from other papers-

Marines Move On Marjah: A Perilous Slog Against Afghanistan's Taliban-WAPO Feb. 15, 2010

More battle accounts from a different Marine company provided by Rajiv Chandrasekaran. Tedious work. Over 70 IEDs found embedded into a stretch of a ten foot high adobe wall. Mines everywhere. Casualities-one dog and two pieces of flatbread woofed by ANA soldiers before the marines could stop them from asking for food from a farmer.

Afghanistan War: Marjah As Tough As Fallujah Say U.S. Troops-CSM Feb.15, 2010

Plenty out there for everybody to read. This is a hard, slow, tedious, infantry fight where the taliban are doing their utmost to generate mistakes. Both sides have probably had more success than the other would like.

It does appear that there are a goodly number of insurgents that are inside the battle area. There are plenty of firefights-some sporadic, some intense.

Thanks.


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## waraich66

PakistaniPhysco said:


> AM You can't Fundamentalist.He's a cyber jihadi  and *salafi terrorist*.He considers AQ freedom fighters but consider Hezbollah terrorist organization go figure..



*MOD : Please take action*

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## Ahmad

Fundamentalist said:


> *MOD : Please take action*



dont you think laden is not a salafi terrorist?


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## waraich66

Unity said:


> dont you think laden is not a salafi terrorist?



Non sense ,

Please stick to topic of post.


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## S-2

*"dont you think laden is not a salafi terrorist?"*

Naw. OBL is a _MODERN_ guy. He's a wahabbi terrorist.

Thanks.


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## waraich66

S-2 said:


> *"dont you think laden is not a salafi terrorist?"*
> 
> Naw. OBL is a _MODERN_ guy. He's a wahabbi terrorist.
> 
> Thanks.



S2,

Do you know who is wahabbi or salafi ?

Please dont use these words with terrorist ,Terrorists have no religion .

Calling every wahabbi or salafi terrorist is attack on some body's religion or faith.

Wahabbi(Salafi),Shia ,Sunni are different sects of Islam.

*MOD: PLEASE TAKE ACTION *

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## s90

*Coalition forces facing 'scattered resistance' in Afghanistan*

Marjah, Afghanistan (CNN) -- Resistance is waning in a major NATO offensive against the Taliban in southern Afghanistan, the nation's officials said Monday, a day after 12 civilians died in a rocket attack by coalition troops.

"Coalition forces are clearing mines and roadside bombings, and facing only scattered resistance" from the Taliban, said Zahir Azimi, the Afghan defense spokesman.

The troops met almost no resistance on Monday, unlike Sunday, said Hanif Atmar, the Afghan minister of interior affairs.

"Progress is being made on all fronts," he said.

However, CNN's Atia Abawi, who is embedded with Marines in Marjah, said the coalition forces were still battling militants, facing sporadic gunfire.

About 15,000 Afghan and NATO forces are taking part in Operation Moshtarak, the biggest offensive since the Afghan war started in 2001. The assault aims to wrest control of the town of Marjah and surrounding areas from the Taliban.

"The operation is being conducted at the request of the Afghan government and the governor of Helmand," said Master Sgt. Jeff Loftin, a spokesman for the NATO-led International Security Assistance Force.


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## S-2

Zahir Azimi is ahead of himself. There are all sorts of pockets with varying resistance from severe to modest. There is an absolute CRAPLOAD of IEDs everywhere.

It'll be at least a month to clear MOST of the mines. Many afghans will yet die by those missed. Yesterday, Marines found over 70 IEDs embedded inside a ten foot high wall along its length. They were intended to catch a column of men as they moved on the trail beside the wall.

Thanks.

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## sherdil76

Fundamentalist said:


> S2,
> 
> Do you know who is wahabbi or salafi ?
> 
> Please dont use these words with terrorist ,Terrorists have no religion .
> 
> Calling every wahabbi or salafi terrorist is attack on some body's religion or faith.
> 
> Wahabbi(Salafi),Shia ,Sunni are different sects of Islam.
> 
> *MOD: PLEASE TAKE ACTION *



bro, my thread http://www.defence.pk/forums/general-images-multimedia/47176-jahaliat-ignorance-its-highest.html was closed without justification as someone thought that was for sectarian flaming, but the one who put racist comments was neither warned nor his comments deleted... i think MODs ko matt jagaoo, vo kissi zarrori kaam se soo rahay hain


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## Ahmad

Fundamentalist said:


> Non sense ,
> 
> Please stick to topic of post.



why not? this thread is about the operation against the terrorits. right now in murjah there are alot of foriegn fighters putting feirce resistance.


----------



## sherdil76

Unity said:


> They did some mistakes? Is it safe if I say the TTP are good organization and good people, but they have done some mistakes just like the others?



First please keep in mind that TTP and Taliban in Afghanistan are different, and they even have different ideaologies about jihad in this region, TTP are said to be funded by enemies of Islam like notorious RAW and mossad, some claim that western interest also want to destablise Pakistan, which TTP is actively pursuing with help of strategic intel they get (from, may be by hacking the CIA portal)

well Taliban in afghanistan want to clear their land from illeagal occupation from enemies, and their jihad is validated and therefore supported by majority of Muslims accross the world, though any unIslamic act is always condenmed.

Secondly; everybody do mistake in his/her life, nobody is pure except the Muhammad (PBUH) and other Prophets that Almighty sent to us, but a shame that christian make fun of Marriam (Mary) and Essa (Jesus) and jews... well they are above all


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## Always Neutral

sherdil76 said:


> First please keep in mind that TTP and Taliban in Afghanistan are different, and they even have different ideaologies about jihad in this region
> 
> *WHO SAID SO. GEN SHUJAT PASHA HEAD OF ISI ? HERE IS WHAT HE SAID*
> 
> "For any turnaround, the Pakistani state needs to initiate a radical course correction. The state cannot neutralize the insurgency in FATA or elsewhere within the existing ideological paradigms, articulated eloquently by ISI chief *Lt. Gen. Ahmed Shuja Pasha, who described Taliban leader Baitullah Mehsud - the Pakistan Army's most relentless tormentor - as a "true patriot". *Shuja Pasha also defended the Taliban in an interview with Der Spiegel, stating: "Shouldn't they be allowed to think and say what they please? They believe that jihad is their obligation. Isn't that freedom of opinion?"
> 
> *IS THE ISI CHIEF AN IDIOT*
> 
> , TTP are said to be funded by enemies of Islam like notorious RAW and mossad, some claim that western interest also want to destablise Pakistan, which TTP is actively pursuing with help of strategic intel they get (from, may be by hacking the CIA portal)
> 
> *YES YOU WOULD KNOW AS YOU HANDLE THEIR BANK ACCOUNTS FROM RAW ?
> 
> YOUR ISI CHIEF CALLED THEM PATRIOTS. EGG ON YOUR FACE?*
> 
> well Taliban in afghanistan want to clear their land from illeagal occupation from enemies, and their jihad is validated and therefore supported by majority of Muslims accross the world, though any unIslamic act is always condenmed.
> 
> Secondly; everybody do mistake in his/her life, nobody is pure except the Muhammad (PBUH) and other Prophets that Almighty sent to us, but a shame that christian make fun of Marriam (Mary) and Essa (Jesus) and jews... well they are above all



*SO FORGIVE THE TTP WHEN THEY KILL YOUR SOLDIERS, DOWN A COBRA AND MARTYR A BRIGADIER.*

Regards

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## sherdil76

S-2 said:


> Fascinating graphs Sherdil76.
> 
> *"Thirty six percent reduction? I am all too aware of these statistical gimmicks..."*
> 
> *so UN reports are gimmick... lol... thats true only what bloody yankees thinks are facts rest are just the gimmick*
> 
> You seem to be regressing with time. Last I saw 2007. Where's 2009? Too gimmicky?
> 
> *... please share that if you have that info... maybe you are the one who actually managing the actual data as UN is just a gimmick studo *
> 
> *"...their big mouths never stop talking dirty about Taliban."*
> 
> The taliban are scum. There's so much to talk dirty about.
> 
> *here come the american angels... new kinda, world has never heard about, actively involved in spreading love across the globe.*
> 
> *"...concept of Punishment is to impose something unpleasant or aversive on a person in response to disobedience, defiance, or behavior deemed morally wrong by law. which act as a measure of prevention to those who are contemplating illicit/unwanted activity" *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She got your message loud and clear. She'd like to say she's sorry for attending school and doing something "..._deemed morally wrong by law_" but it hurts too much. Can she have her face back now?
> 
> did you forgot to mention that in America, a woman is raped every 2 minutes, according to the U.S. Department of Justice... oops
> 
> Thanks.



... we'v got the american message loud and clear


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## Ahmad

sherdil76 said:


> First please keep in mind that TTP and Taliban in Afghanistan are different, and they even have different ideaologies about jihad in this region, TTP are said to be funded by enemies of Islam like notorious RAW and mossad, some claim that western interest also want to destablise Pakistan, which TTP is actively pursuing with help of strategic intel they get (from, may be by hacking the CIA portal)
> 
> well Taliban in afghanistan want to clear their land from illeagal occupation from enemies, and their jihad is validated and therefore supported by majority of Muslims accross the world, though any unIslamic act is always condenmed.
> 
> Secondly; everybody do mistake in his/her life, nobody is pure except the Muhammad (PBUH) and other Prophets that Almighty sent to us, but a shame that christian make fun of Marriam (Mary) and Essa (Jesus) and jews... well they are above all



Dear Sherdil,

You can draw a line of difference between Tehrik Taliban Pakisan and Afghani Taliban, but the fact is that both of these forces are destroying afghanistan and paksitan. if the taliban had a tiny bit of love for afghanistan, they would have layed down their weapon and joined the political process. it is very easy for people who have weapon in their hand to disturb the peace in a country, that doesnt mean they are powerful or loved. give arms and amunitions to 50 thieves in your city and you'll see how much of a disaster they would bring and prove theri presence and destructive power there, but it doesnt mean all the city is theive and people are supporter of the theives. anyone who have agenda of destruction and weapon in hand can do a fantastic job to ruin a country/place, no matter how unpopular they are. the chanlleging task is rebuilding and construction. this is the same about TTP or AT, they can easily distrb people's lives, no question about it. AT are themselves puppets so their claim of liberating Afghans from the others is nothing but a laughable matter.

you said about the mistakes, if you call the actions of AT a mistake then the actions of TTP is also a mistake, because i dont see a difference between the actions of these 2 groups. the taliban right from their emergence have killed the innocent poeple. if they had killed the military peoole i woundt care about it, if they had killed the stupid NA soldiers i wouldnt care about or if the NA soldierss had killed the taliban soldiers i again would care about it, they chose to be fighters and the fighters' most likely to die. but these taliban killed peopole based on shia-sunni prejudice, they entered people's houses and masacared civilians, they beheaded journalists, they beheaded teachers in schools, the suicide bombing among the civilians and alot more, do you call all of these as mistakes?

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## pkd

12+5=17 innocent killed

*NATO kills 5 civilians*

KABUL &#8212; NATO says an airstrike against suspected insurgents has killed five civilians in Kandahar province in southern Afghanistan.

Monday's accident follows the deaths on Sunday of 12 Afghans, who were killed by two U.S. rockets in neighboring Helmand province. Some 15,000 U.S., Afghan and other international forces are in Helmand on the third day of a major offensive to reclaim the town of Marjah from Taliban control.

Civilian casualties are a sensitive issue in the eight-year-old war.

A NATO statement says a joint patrol of NATO and Afghan troops saw individuals digging along a path in the Zhari district of Kandahar province and mistakenly concluded that they were planting an improvised explosive device. Two civilians were wounded in the strike.

THIS IS A BREAKING NEWS UPDATE. Check back soon for further information. AP's earlier story is below.

MARJAH, Afghanistan (AP) &#8212; Sniper teams attacked U.S. Marines and Afghan troops across the Taliban haven of Marjah, as several gun battles erupted Monday on the third day of a major offensive to seize the extremists' southern heartland.

Multiple firefights broke out in different neighborhoods as American and Afghan forces worked to clear out pockets of insurgents and push slowly beyond parts of the town they have claimed. With gunfire coming from several directions all day long, troops managed to advance only 500 yards (meters) deeper as they fought off small squads of Taliban snipers.

"There's still a good bit of the land still to be cleared," said Capt. Abraham Sipe, a Marine spokesman. "We're moving at a very deliberative pace."

The massive offensive in the Marjah area &#8212; the largest Taliban stronghold and a key opium trafficking hub &#8212; involves about 15,000 U.S., Afghan and British troops and is the biggest joint operation since the 2001 U.S.-led invasion of Afghanistan.

On Monday, Afghan military officials gave a more optimistic view of the progress being made, with Brig. Gen. Sher Mohammad Zazai saying Afghan and NATO forces have largely contained the insurgents and succeeded in gaining trust from residents, who have pointed out mine locations.

"Today there is no major movement of the enemy. South of Marjah they are very weak. There has been low resistance. Soon we will have Marjah cleared of enemies," Zazai said at a briefing in Lashkar Gah, the provincial capital of Helmand province. He added that only three Afghan troops had been injured.

Interior Minister Hanif Atmar said he expected some insurgent fighters had already fled the area in advance of the offensive, possibly heading to the Pakistan border.

The enemy "had ample time to flee. Our intention was known to both our public and the enemy," he said.

However, the mission faced a setback on Sunday when two U.S. rockets slammed into a home outside Marjah, killing 12 civilians. NATO said Monday that the rockets missed their target by about 600 meters, or about a third of a mile. NATO had earlier said the rockets missed their target by just 300 meters.

Six children were among the dead from the rocket strike, a NATO military official confirmed Monday, speaking on condition of anonymity because the information had not been formally released.

British Chief of the Defense Staff Air Chief Marshal Sir Jock Stirrup called the off-target strike a "very serious setback" in efforts to win the support of local communities.

"This operation ... is not about battling the Taliban. It is about protecting the local population and you don't protect them when you kill them," he said in an interview with the BBC.

Afghan President Hamid Karzai, who had pleaded with NATO and Afghan forces to be cautious about civilian casualties ahead of the offensive, has called for a thorough investigation into the airstrike.

Differing accounts have emerged about the details. On Monday, Afghan Interior Minister Atmar said at the briefing in Lashkar Gah that nine civilians and two or three insurgents were among those killed, suggesting that insurgents were firing at troops from a civilian home.

"The reality is this ... the enemy did capture some civilians in their house and they were firing at our forces from this house. Unfortunately our forces didn't know that civilians were living in that house," he said.

The top NATO commander in Afghanistan, Gen. Stanley McChrystal, apologized for "this tragic loss of life" and suspended use of the sophisticated rocket system pending a thorough review.

The rockets were fired by the High Mobility Artillery Rocket System, or HIMARS, at insurgents who had attacked U.S. and Afghan forces, wounding one American and one Afghan, NATO said. However, the projectiles veered off target and blasted the home in northern Nad Ali district, which includes Marjah, NATO added.

Karzai spokesman Waheed Omar said the president "is very upset about what happened" and has been "very seriously conveying his message" of restraint "again and again."

Inside Marjah, sporadic firefights increased by midday. One armored column came under fire from at least three separate sniper teams, slowing its progress. One of the teams came within 155 feet (50 meters) and started firing.

"It's a pretty busy day but we expected that because we are penetrating," said Lt. Col. Brian Christmas, commander of 3rd Battalion, 6th Marines, referring to a half-dozen major gun battles throughout town.

Marines said their ability to fight back has been tightly constrained by strict new rules of engagement that make their job more difficult and dangerous. Under the rules, troops cannot fire at people unless they commit a hostile act or show hostile intent.

"I understand the reason behind it, but it's so hard to fight a war like this," said Lance Corp. Travis Anderson, 20, from Altoona, Iowa. "They're using our rules of engagement against us," he said, stating that his platoon had repeatedly seen men dropping their guns into ditches before walking away to melt among civilians.

Allied officials have reported two coalition deaths so far &#8212; one American and one Briton killed Saturday. Afghan officials said at least 27 insurgents have been killed in the offensive.

Separately in southern Afghanistan, NATO said two service members died Sunday &#8212; one from small-arms fire and the other from a roadside bomb explosion. Both were British, according to the British government.

Copyright &#169; 2010 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. 
The Associated Press: NATO says airstrike in Kandahar kills 5 civilians


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## pkd

*US fears being bogged down in Marjah as snipers hit major offensive*

US Marines and Afghan troops were making slow progress as they came under attack from snipers on the third day of a major offensive to seize the Talebans stronghold in southern Afghanistan. 

Multiple firefights broke out in different areas in and around Marjah, the last militant stronghold in the countrys most violent province, Helmand. The US troops leading Operation Moshtarak  Togetherness  advanced only 500 yards today. Marine units twice tried to capture the towns central bazaar, only to be pushed back. 

Coming under heavy fire and sniper attacks, and faced with booby-trapped buildings, the US Marines were forced to call in Harrier jets and attacks helicopters armed with Hellfire missiles. 

Theres still a good bit of the land to be cleared, said Captain Abraham Spice, a spokesman of the US Marines. Were moving at a very deliberative pace. 

In many parts of Marjah, we have seen very little opposition. There are areas where Marines have met with stiff resistance, but they're making steady progress throughout the area. 

US officers from Bravo Company 1st Battalion 6th Marine told The Times that the fighting on the first day of the operation was as intense as any that the same unit faced during the infamous clearance of Fallujah in Iraq in 2004. 

They said that Taleban insurgents displayed very high levels of tactical awareness and training  including walking mortar fire onto the Marines and persistent and highly accurate sniper fire. 

The massive offensive in Marjah  the largest Taleban stronghold and its main opium production area  involves about 15,000 US, British and Afghan troops. It is the biggest joint operation since the 2001 invasion that overthrew the Taleban. The troops are fighting over an area of less than 100 square miles, with a population of 80,000. 

The slow progress strongly suggests that the campaign to seize insurgent-held areas ahead of a the troop withdrawal date of 2011 set by President Obama could slip. 

US Marines said their ability to fight back has been tightly constrained by strict new rules of engagement that make their task more difficult and dangerous. Under the rules, troops cannot fire at people unless they commit a hostile act or show intent. 

Corporal Travis Anderson, 20, from Iowa, said that his platoon had repeatedly seen Afghan fighters dropping their guns into ditches before melting away into the civilian population. 

Its hard to fight a war like this, he said. Theyre using our rules of engagement against us. 

There was further fallout from the Nato missile strike that killed 12 civilians yesterday, an error that dismayed General Stanley McChrystal, the US and Nato ground commander. He has repeatedly stressed that a failure to win over the civilian population will doom the military campaign to failure. 

A Nato official confirmed that six of the dead were children. Hamid Karzai, the Afghan President, called for a thorough investigation. 

Today, there was further embarrassment as it emerged that a Nato airstrike in Kandahar had killed a further five civilians and wounded two. An Isaf spokesman said the group of civilians was deliberately targeted under the mistaken belief that they were planting roadside bombs. The troops were not taking part in Operation Moshtarak. 

In a blow to British forces, a soldier from 36 Engineer Regiment was hilled by a roadside bomb near Sangin, in Helmand. He, too, was not participating in Operation Moshtarak. The latest fatality comes after two British soldiers were killed in Afghanistan yesterday. 

Major General Nick Carter, commander of Nato forces in southern Afghanistan, said: You wont know how successful youve been probably for about eight weeks, downstream. The measure of it will be the extent to which the population is entirely on our side. 

Afghan security chiefs gave a more optimistic assessment of the assault on Marjah. They said Government troops faced sporadic resistance. The Defence Minister, Abdul Rahim Wardak, insisted most of the insurgents had either hidden or escaped, and invited the Taleban fighters to swap sides. 

This is your country, he said in a message to them. Take part in its development. Three suspected bomb makers were identified via biometric tests and arrested while trying to escape disguised as civilian refugees but many more had fled undetected, Interior Minister Hanif Atmar said. 

The enemy had ample time to flee the area, he said. There are reports that we cant confirm at this point that some of them have been reported to have crossed the border. He promised more than 1,000 new policemen for the province and said half of the existing force had been vetted and drugs tested. The other half would be checked by April. 

Your best option is to take advantage of the Afghan governments peace and reconciliation process, Mr Atmar told the insurgents at a press conference in Lashkar Gah. Theres no way you can win. This is not the first time Taleban fighters have melted away in the face of an overwhelming Nato force and commanders warn it is only a matter of time before they regroup and launch guerrilla-style attacks. 

We will turn Marjah a hell for them, Mullah Abdul Razaq Akhend, the top Taleban commander in Marjah, vowed. Marjah is not a strategic place for us, it is not as important as the Nato forces are propagating about. They want to put curtain in front of their previous failures by giving this operation a big name. We have more important and bigger districts in Helmand and other provinces in our hand that are more important and much bigger. They want to stop our spring offensive by this operation which is in two months, but they should know they wont be able to do anything. We will finally defeat them."
US fears being bogged down in Marjah as snipers hit major offensive - Times Online


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## Ahmad

I just saw the news and heard about the 5 civilians killed, it is the civilians who are taking all the hit from all sides.


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## S-2

*"... we'v got the american message loud and clear"*

I doubt you remember all of the message.

Call me when those men who disfigured that child get three years in prison for their actions-

Lyndie England Convicted and Dishonorably Discharged-MSN

Personally, I'd permit that child to pour acid in the eyes of each where they captured.

Those men Lyndie England ridiculed will survive without permanent disfigurement. That young girl disfigured by acid possesses almost no chance of a happy future in Afghan society and will bear the scars from her tormentors for life.

For myself, they shall be red badges of courage and she and others like her will always be in my prayers. 

Thanks.


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## The Patriot

sherdil76 said:


> ... we'v got the american message loud and clear



The incident of Abu Gharaib was not sanctioned by the state of America and they punished those who did it. but the ones done by Taliban are not individual acts but rather state sanctioned. in fact its the ideology and state policy of Taliban to use violence. you should know the difference between the two cases. but i am certain you will look the other way.

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## TaimiKhan

S-2 said:


> *"dont you think laden is not a salafi terrorist?"*
> 
> Naw. OBL is a _MODERN_ guy. He's a wahabbi terrorist.
> 
> Thanks.



A terrorist is a terrorist, there is no wahabi, shia or sunni terrorist. 

You and your govt protects, buys oil and directly funding the same so called Wahabi terrorists, so what does it makes you or USA?? 

Christian or Jew terrorists financing Wahabi terrorists to spread terrorism around the world. ?????? 

So next time, if you call someone wahabi terrorist, do remember, its you and your dollars which are supporting them, so it makes you no different then OBL.

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## TaimiKhan

sherdil76 said:


> bro, my thread http://www.defence.pk/forums/general-images-multimedia/47176-jahaliat-ignorance-its-highest.html was closed without justification as someone thought that was for sectarian flaming, but the one who put racist comments was neither warned nor his comments deleted... i think MODs ko matt jagaoo, vo kissi zarrori kaam se soo rahay hain



Your thread got closed, becoz its message was not sectarian, but it had changed into one by posters. So understand things before you open it up. 

And mods are human being too, with real lives, they can't be on the forum 24/7, and your job is to report a post, not by writing in big red mods take action gonna make the mod run to the thread, for reporting we have the button which can be pressed and post reported. 

So next time before you criticize do think, as you are already on a very tight leash and when these same mods wake up, you won't be left to be around.


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## S-2

*"You and your govt protects, buys oil and directly funding the same so called Wahabi terrorists, so what does it makes you or USA?? 

Christian or Jew terrorists financing Wahabi terrorists to spread terrorism around the world. ?????? 

So next time, if you call someone wahabi terrorist, do remember, its you and your dollars which are supporting them, so it makes you no different then OBL."*

Well, what goes around in the form of cash for oil, comes around in the form of wahabbist donations to the Muslim Brotherhood-the forebearers of Sayyid Qutb, its leading intellectual and mentor of Ayman Zawahiri.

Not all wahabbist are terrorists. In fact the vast, vast majority are not. If they're terrorists and from Saudi Arabia, you can just about, however, BET that they are wahabbist by religious orientation even if followers of Sayyid Qutb.

Thanks.


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## fatman17

ASIA PACIFIC 
Date Posted: 12-Feb-2010 


Jane's Defence Weekly 

*NATO forces forego surprise in new Afghan offensive*

Tim Ripley JDW Correspondent - London

*Key Points
ISAF forces are beginning a major operation against the Taliban to secure the town of Marjah in central Helmand province

Public warnings of the offensive are designed to minimise civilian casualties, but there are mixed views on how the Taliban will react *


*In a significant change of tactics NATO forces in Afghanistan have issued public warnings to local civilians ahead of an offensive by some 15,000 US, UK, Canadian and Afghan troops to seize control of the town of Marjah, in central Helmand province, from Taliban insurgents. *

The decision drew criticism from some parliamentarians in the UK, but senior NATO commanders defended the move because they hoped it would allow the town's civilian population to flee to safety, thus reducing non-combatant casualties. NATO commanders are expecting heavy fighting with an estimated 1,000 to 2,000 'hardcore' Taliban fighters occupying the town, which is 10 miles to the west of the provincial capital, Lashkar Gar. 

Insurgents are also expected to plant large numbers of improvised explosive devices (IED) to inflict casualties on NATO troops.

"We're not interested in how many Taliban we kill," US Army General Stanley McChrystal, commander of the NATO-led International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) in Afghanistan, said on 4 February at the NATO summit in Istanbul, Turkey. "It is a little unconventional to do it this way. We're trying to signal to the Afghan people that we are expanding security where they live. We are trying also to signal to the insurgents, the Taliban primarily in this area and the narco-traffickers, that it's about to change." 

In a statement issued on 10 February the UK Ministry of Defence said: "It is a conscious decision by the operational commanders in theatre to signal that operations are about to take place and to give the Taliban in those areas a choice, [to] either to put down their weapons, choose not to fight and become part of legitimate society, or if they choose to fight, they'll be subjected to overwhelming force and will be defeated. 

"Operation 'Moshtarak' ('Together' in Dari) was never going to be a surprise; the scale of our intent is clear for all to see. ISAF troops take the issue of civilian casualties seriously and demonstrate 'courageous restraint' if there is any risk to civilian life. Publicising the operation in advance reduces the risk to ordinary Afghans by allowing them to make arrangements to ensure their safety." 

ISAF troops began what were termed 'shaping' operations during the first week of February, which culminated in US troops approaching the southern outskirts of Marjah on 11 February. It is intended that a large contingent of Afghan troops will garrison the town after its capture. 

The first phase of the operation saw about 400 US troops from the US Army's 5th Stryker Brigade as well as 250 Afghan soldiers and their 30 Canadian trainers move into positions northeast of the town. At the same time UK troops from the Grenadier Guards battlegroup, supplemented by a company from the Royal Welsh regiment and a company from the Scots Guards, partnered at company level with Afghan troops, mounted an operation around the town of Nad-i-Ali, northwest of Marjah. These operations were supported by heavy fixed-wing, attack helicopter and unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) activity. 

The main assault force, led by the 1st Battalion, 6th Marine Regiment, and the 3rd Battalion, 10th Marine Regiment, from the US Marine Corps' 2nd Marine Expeditionary Brigade, is driving on Marjah from the south. The brigade's commander, Brigadier General Larry Nicholson, had previously conducted a series of meetings with local elders to warn them about the offensive, promising that any battle damage to homes, farms and businesses would be repaired and compensation paid.

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## fawwaxs

*Civilian death toll rises in Afghan offensive*

Three more Afghan civilians were killed in the assault on a southern Taliban stronghold, NATO forces said Tuesday, highlighting the toll on the population from an offensive aimed at making them safer.

The deaths _ in three separate incidents _ come after two errant U.S. missiles struck a house on the outskirts of the town of Marjah on Sunday, killing 12 people, half of them children. Afghan officials said Monday three Taliban fighters were in the house at the time of the attack.

About 15,000 NATO and Afghan troops are taking part in the massive offensive around Marjah _ the linchpin of the Taliban logistical and opium poppy smuggling network in the militant-influenced south. U.S. Marines are spearheading the assault.

The offensive is the biggest joint operation since the 2001 U.S.-led invasion of Afghanistan, and a major test of a retooled NATO strategy to focus on protecting civilians, rather than killing insurgents.

But in the fourth day of an assault that could take weeks, the drumbeat of gunfire and controlled detonations of planted bombs sparked fears that civilians will bear the burden of the fight.

In two of the incidents NATO confirmed Tuesday, Afghan men came toward NATO forces and ignored shouts and hand signals to stop, NATO said. Troops opened fire and killed them.

In the third incident, two Afghan men were caught in the crossfire between insurgents and NATO forces. Both were wounded and one died of his injuries despite being given medical care, NATO said.

Taliban fighters have stepped up counterattacks against Marines and Afghan soldiers in Marjah, slowing the allied advance to a crawl despite Afghan government claims the insurgents were broken and on the run.

Though NATO has only confirmed 15 civilian deaths, an Afghan human rights group said Tuesday that they have counted 19 civilians killed since the beginning of the operation. Four of those were people who were caught in the crossfire when they had to leave their homes for various reasons.

"Their neighbors tell us that the bodies are outside and they want someone to pick them up. They say they're scared if they go outside they will also be shot dead," said Ajmal Samadi, the director of Afghanistan Rights Monitor. It was unclear whether NATO or insurgent forces were to blame for the deaths, he said.

In the streets, Taliban fighters appeared to be slipping under the cover of darkness into compounds already deemed free of weapons and explosives, then opening fire on the Marines from behind U.S. lines.

Explosions continued around town Tuesday as Marines endeavored to push further through streets littered with bombs and booby traps.

Squads with Lima Company, 3rd Battalion, 6th Marines fanned out into compounds to search for explosive devices and insurgents, as an armored-vehicle convoy moved forward. A mine-roller leading the way continuously detonated planted bombs as it advanced.

The Marines' goal for many days has been to link up with other companies that airdropped into the city Saturday, but progress has been slow.

"It's really crucial that we get through today," said Lima Company Capt. Joshua Winfrey.

Afghan President Hamid Karzai approved the assault on Marjah only after instructing NATO and Afghan commanders to be careful about harming civilians. "This operation has been done with that in mind," the top NATO commander, U.S. Gen. Stanley McChrystal, said Monday.

Despite those instructions, NATO reported its first civilian deaths Sunday, saying two U.S. rockets veered off target by up to 600 yards (meters) and slammed into a home _ killing six children and six adults.

In London, Britain's top military officer, Air Chief Marshal Sir Jock Stirrup, called the missile strike a "very serious setback" to efforts to win the support of locals, who are from the same Pashtun ethnic group as the Taliban.

NATO suspended the use of the rocket system that killed the civilians following the 12 deaths, pending an investigation.

In a separate incident unrelated to the Marjah offensive, a NATO airstrike in neighboring Kandahar province killed five civilians and wounded two. NATO said in a statement they were mistakenly believed to have been planting roadside bombs.

Afghan commanders spoke optimistically about progress in Marjah, a town of about 80,000 people seen as key to securing the restive south.

"It is very weak resistance, sporadic resistance by the enemy in some villages in Marjah area," Chief of Army Staff Bismullah Mohammadi said. Other officials have said Taliban fighters were fleeing across the border and the town should soon be cleared of insurgents.

In Marjah, however, there has been little sign the Taliban are broken. Instead, small, mobile teams of insurgents have repeatedly attacked U.S. and Afghan troops with rocket, rifle and rocket-propelled grenade fire in recent days.

Taliban fighters moved close enough to the main road to fire repeatedly on columns of mine-clearing vehicles.

Allied officials have reported only two coalition deaths so far _ one American and one Briton killed Saturday. There have been no reports of wounded. Afghan officials said at least 27 insurgents were killed so far in the offensive.

Two NATO service members died Monday from bomb strikes in Helmand; neither was part of the Marjah offensive, military spokesman Sgt. Kevin Bell said. NATO did not provide their nationalities.

As long as the town remains unstable, NATO officials cannot move to the second phase _ restoring Afghan government control and rushing in aid and public services to win over inhabitants who have been living under Taliban rule for years.

___

Associated Press Writers Heidi Vogt in Kabul and Rahim Faiez in Shorabak Airbase in Helmand province contributed to this report.


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## fatman17

^^^one can take all the 'precautions' in the theater of war, but the unfortunate reality of war is that 'innocent' civilians will lose their lives.

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## S-2

From today's news-

Half Of Town's Taliban Flee Or Are Killed-NYT Feb.16, 2010

The taliban appear to be having some morale issues that is degrading their cohesion.

WRT to fatman's assertion, there are likely some frustrated marines from B Co. 1/6 Marines that I.D.ed 12 insurgents leaving a compound to set up an ambush. They called an airstrike on them. No go said headquarters-

*"It seemed like a good target to us,"* _Capt. Ryan Sparks, the commander of Bravo Company, which is part of the 1st Battalion of the 6th Marine Regiment, said of the strike rejected by Marine headquarters on Monday_.* "We didn't see any civilians around."*

U.S. Curtails Airstrikes In Assault On Marja-WAPO Feb.16, 2010

Three interesting points from the WSJ-

1.) McChrystal insists that the rocket strike which killed 12 civilians on Sunday actually hit its intended target. He says a unit was taking fire from the compound. That flat-out contradicts the word of marines in a unit to which C.J. Chivers of the NYT had been embedded. They'd been taking fire from another compound and had requested artillery some considerable time earlier. So much earlier they'd presumed the mission was cancelled. Whether another unit in another direction was receiving the alleged fire is unknown but targeting a compound without certain knowledge it's devoid of civilians would appear to conflict with McChrystal's ROEs in any case. Fog of war.

2.) Taliban received a mid-level commander as reinforcement allegedly with the mission to evacuate as many fighters as possible. Many are rumored to be donning head-to-toe Burkhas to assist their escape.

3.) A local shura assigned 10 civiilians to the Marines to assist identifying IEDs-

Taliban Resist Afghan Offensive-WSJ Feb.16, 2010

That is all...

Thanks.

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## fatman17

*Taliban allow US troops very little advancement in Marjah*

MARJAH: Sniper teams attacked US Marines and Afghan troops across the Taliban haven of Marjah, as several gunbattles erupted on Monday, the third day of a major offensive to seize the extremists&#8217; southern heartland.

Multiple firefights broke out in different neighbourhoods as US and Afghan forces worked to clear out pockets of Taliban and push slowly beyond parts of the town that they have gained control of. With gunfire coming from several directions all day long, troops managed to advance only 500 metres deeper as they fought off small squads of Taliban snipers.

&#8220;There&#8217;s still a good bit of the land still to be cleared,&#8221; said Capt Abraham Sipe, a Marine spokesman. &#8220;We&#8217;re moving at a very deliberative pace,&#8221; he added.

However, the mission faced a setback on Sunday when two US rockets slammed into a home outside Marjah, killing 12 civilians.

Six children were among the dead from the rocket strike, a NATO military official confirmed Monday, speaking on condition of anonymity. Separately, 12 Taliban fighters were killed overnight in the NATO offensive against the Taliban in Marjah, a government official said.

&#8220;There were bombardments in parts of Marjah and as a result 12 Taliban have been killed,&#8221; Dawud Ahmadi, a spokesman for the provincial governor of Helmand, told reporters.

The United States&#8217; top military officer on Sunday said the assault on the Taliban stronghold of Marjah in Afghanistan&#8217;s Helmand province had got &#8220;off to a good start&#8221;.

&#8220;It&#8217;s actually very difficult to predict (the end),&#8221; Admiral Mike Mullen, chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff, told reporters during a visit to Israel. &#8220;We have from a planning standpoint talked about a few weeks, but I don&#8217;t know that.&#8221; agencies


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## fatman17

*US Marines under fire from Taliban &#8216;Aks&#8217;*

By Patrick Baz

Get down, get down!&#8221; scream US Marines as Taliban bullets whistle through poppy fields and troops hit the ground on the outskirts of the southern Afghan town of Marjah.

Marines lie flat on their stomachs, others duck behind sand dunes as they try to assess where the attack is coming from in the midst of an offensive designed to clear the Taliban out of Marjah, an AFP photographer witnesses. But their counterparts from the Afghan army open fire immediately. &#8220;Cease fire, cease fire!&#8221; shouts a US lieutenant over the din, telling them through a translator they should first know at whom and what they&#8217;re shooting.

The joint US Marine-Afghan patrol were inching through poppy fields northeast of Marjah on Sunday, the day after the start of Operation Mushtarak, in which 15,000 US, NATO and Afghan troops aim to eradicate militants from the town. Their advance is slow. A sniffer dog picks its way across fields that produce most of the world&#8217;s opium, looking for improvised explosive devices (IEDs) &#8212; the primary killer of foreign and Afghan troops.

The patrol plans to make contact with local residents and with the &#8220;enemy&#8221;, says Captain Stephen Karabin, commander of Charlie company, Marines&#8217; 1st Batallion, 3rd Regiment. The company wants Afghans to tip them off about the presence of &#8220;foreign elements&#8221; and aims to reassure them that the Marines and Afghan troops are here to stay and to ensure residents&#8217; safety, says Karabin. Suddenly the Labrador gets excited, catching a whiff of explosives near a farm. Closer inspection reveals not a bomb, but cartridges from a Dragunov, a Russian-made sniper rifle favoured by the Taliban. Marines take up position, surrounding farms while Afghan soldiers start searching. Local men whom they question say they have seen nothing and heard nothing. &#8220;As soon as the Taliban come here we leave, it&#8217;s safer,&#8221; said one. &#8220;They are firing on you from our farms and you&#8217;re shooting back&#8221;.

Civilians have long been caught in the crossfire of a war now in its ninth year. On Sunday, 12 Afghan civilians were killed when two NATO rockets missed their target and landed on a compound in the Nad Ali district of Helmand province. Suddenly, troops spot an Afghan waving a shovel. Lieutenant Toucey sounds the alert about a suspected Taliban spotter who may have been signalling the patrol&#8217;s presence, just as a crackle of gunfire shatters the calm. &#8220;AK, AK!&#8221; shout the soldiers, referring to Kalashnikov rifle fire. &#8220;Get down, get down!&#8221;

Under Taliban fire, the Marines assemble high-calibre machine guns behind an embankment. Units radio for reinforcements. Bullets whistle in all directions. The Marines shoot back. A fighter jet drops a bomb onto the suspected location of the Taliban shooter, a deafening explosion shakes the ground and the impact sends a thick column of grey smoke into the sky. A sudden, eerie silence follows.

A little further away, a Marine points his weapon towards an irrigation canal and shouts &#8220;Stand up! hands up!&#8221; A man lying face down in the muddy water gets up and raises his hands, shivering with cold and fear. &#8220;I went to open my water pump, I heard gunshots and hid,&#8221; said the thickly bearded man dressed in traditional dress of baggy black tunic and matching trousers &#8212; speaking through a translator. Marines and Afghan soldiers search him before he is questioned by an intelligence officer and released. &#8220;It&#8217;s probably the spotter,&#8221; said a sergeant.At the same time, the radio crackles into life to announce that the enemy are pulling back. The jet returns at low altitude, dropping flares to cheers of &#8220;Happy Valentine&#8217;s Day!&#8221; from the Americans below. *afp*

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## Thomas

*Marjah, Afghanistan (CNN)* -- U.S. Marines fighting the Taliban in southern Afghanistan achieved a main objective Tuesday -- taking over the police headquarters in the center of the Taliban stronghold of Marjah.

CNN correspondent Atia Abawi, embedded with the Marines, said troops didn't receive any resistance when they took the station, but gun battles broke out in the area a few hours later.

There was an engagement for 15 to 20 minutes, with constant gunfire coming from different directions, and there have been "sporadic battles," Abawi said.

Unlike previous days, there was fighting in the evening, with Taliban militants trying to attack Marine locations with small arms and rocket-propelled grenades. One of the grenades hit close to one of the U.S. positions and a fire broke out.

About 15,000 Afghan and NATO forces are taking part in Operation Moshtarak, which focuses on the town of Marjah and surrounding areas in Helmand province. Set in a region known as the country's heroin capital, Marjah is where the Taliban established a shadow government.

The military says the goal of Operation Moshtarak is to provide security, governance and development, and authorities hope fighters choose to reject the insurgency and join the government's reintegration process.

Clearing out poppy fields is a key part of the push, the biggest since the Afghanistan War started in 2001. The Taliban finances its activities in part through the illegal opium trade.

One of the biggest challenges facing the NATO mission in Afghanistan is attacking the Taliban while limiting civilian casualties. On Sunday, 12 civilians died in a rocket attack by coalition troops. Three other Afghan civilians were killed by NATO in separate incidents on Sunday and Monday.

*On Tuesday, Abawi spoke to one civilian whose property had been destroyed in the initial push by Marines. Despite that, he said he was happy to see Americans arrive and noted that Marines promised to pay for the damages to his home.

He said Afghans have suffered under the Taliban, who he said had beheaded some people and forced their way into people's homes for food.*


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## Thomas

MARJAH, Afghanistan &#8212; It is hard to know whether Monday was a very bad day or a very good day for Lance Cpl. Andrew Koenig.

On the one hand, he was shot in the head. On the other, the bullet bounced off him.

In one of those rare battlefield miracles, an insurgent sniper hit Lance Cpl. Koenig dead on in the front of his helmet, and he walked away from it with a smile on his face.

"I don't think I could be any luckier than this," Lance Cpl. Koenig said two hours after the shooting.

Lance Cpl. Koenig's brush with death came during a day of intense fighting for the Marines of Company B, 1st Battalion, 6th Regiment.

The company had landed by helicopter in the predawn dark on Saturday, launching a major coalition offensive to take Marjah from the Taliban.

The Marines set up an outpost in a former drug lab and roadside-bomb factory and soon found themselves under near-constant attack.

Lance Cpl. Koenig, a lanky 21-year-old with jug-handle ears and a burr of sandy hair, is a designated marksman. His job is to hit the elusive Taliban fighters hiding in the tightly packed neighborhood near the base.

The insurgent sniper hit him first. The Casper, Wyo., native was kneeling on the roof of the one-story outpost, looking for targets.

He was reaching back to his left for his rifle when the sniper's round slammed into his helmet.

The impact knocked him onto his back.

"I'm hit," he yelled to his buddy, Lance Cpl. Scott Gabrian, a 21-year-old from St. Louis.

Lance Cpl. Gabrian belly-crawled along the rooftop to his friend's side. He patted Lance Cpl. Koenig's body, looking for wounds.

Click here for more on this story from the Wall Street Journal.

Then he noticed that the plate that usually secures night-vision goggles to the front of Lance Cpl. Koenig's helmet was missing. In its place was a thumb-deep dent in the hard Kevlar shell.

Lance Cpl. Gabrian slid his hands under his friend's helmet, looking for an entry wound. "You're not bleeding," he assured Lance Cpl. Koenig. "You're going to be OK."

Lance Cpl. Koenig climbed down the metal ladder and walked to the company aid station to see the Navy corpsman.

The only injury: A small, numb red welt on his forehead, just above his right eye.

He had spent 15 minutes with Doc, as the Marines call the medics, when an insurgent's rocket-propelled grenade exploded on the rooftop, next to Lance Cpl. Gabrian.

The shock wave left him with a concussion and hearing loss.

He joined Lance Cpl. Koenig at the aid station, where the two friends embraced, their eyes welling.

The men had served together in Afghanistan in 2008, and Lance Cpl. Koenig had survived two blasts from roadside bombs.

"We've got each other's backs," Lance Cpl. Gabrian said, the explosion still ringing in his ears.

Word of Lance Cpl. Koenig's close call spread quickly through the outpost, as he emerged from the shock of the experience and walked through the outpost with a Cheshire cat grin.

"He's alive for a reason," Tim Coderre, a North Carolina narcotics detective working with the Marines as a consultant, told one of the men. "From a spiritual point of view, that doesn't happen by accident."

Gunnery Sgt. Kevin Shelton, whose job is to keep the Marines stocked with food, water and gear, teased the lance corporal for failing to take care of his helmet.

"I need that damaged-gear statement tonight," Gunnery Sgt. Shelton told Lance Cpl. Koenig. It was understood, however, that Lance Cpl. Koenig would be allowed to keep the helmet as a souvenir.

Gunnery Sgt. Shelton, a 36-year-old veteran from Nashville, said he had never seen a Marine survive a direct shot to the head.

But next to him was Cpl. Christopher Ahrens, who quietly mentioned that two bullets had grazed his helmet the day the Marines attacked Marjah. The same thing, he said, happened to him three times in firefights in Iraq.

Cpl. Ahrens, 26, from Havre de Grace, Md., lifted the camouflaged cloth cover on his helmet, exposing the holes where the bullets had entered and exited.

He turned it over to display the picture card tucked inside, depicting Michael the Archangel stamping on Lucifer's head. "I don't need luck," he said.

After his moment with Lance Cpl. Gabrian, Lance Cpl. Koenig put his dented helmet back on his head and climbed the metal ladder to resume his rooftop duty within an hour of being hit.

"I know any one of these guys would do the same," he explained. "If they could keep going, they would."

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## fatman17

*US Marines link up with units in Marjah*

** Taliban spokesman claims militants retain control, coalition forces under siege 
* NATO says service member killed in roadside blast in Marjah*

MARJAH: US Marines, moving by land from the north, on Tuesday linked up with US and Afghan units that have faced nearly constant Taliban attack in the four days since they were dropped by helicopter into this 
insurgent stronghold 
in southern Afghanistan.

Also on Tuesday, US artillery fired non-lethal smoke rounds to disperse Taliban fighters in Marjah - the first time cannons have been used in the fight to drive the militants from their logistical and opium poppy-smuggling base. Commanders refused a Marine request to fire deadly high-explosive rounds because the unit on the ground could not be sure if civilians were at risk.

The linkup between the two US Marine rifle companies and their Afghan army partners would enable the US to expand its control in Marjah, situated in Helmand province 610 kilometres southwest of Kabul.

The Lima Company of the 3rd Battalion, 6th Marines moved through fields of hidden bombs and booby traps, and braved heavy sniper fire to join up with the same battalion&#8217;s Kilo Company, which was airdropped into the town in the first hours of the operation on Saturday.

Lt Gordon Emmanuel, a platoon commander in Kilo Company, said the Marines landed without encountering Taliban fire but came under sustained attack as they fanned out from the landing zone.

&#8220;When it is daytime, there is non-stop contact until the sun goes down ... every day,&#8221; Emmanuel said.

Marines under siege: A Taliban spokesman, however, claimed that insurgents retain control of the town and that coalition forces &#8211; who &#8220;descended from helicopters in limited areas of Marjah&#8221; &#8211;were now &#8220;under siege.&#8221;

Taliban spokesman Tariq Ghazniwal extended an invitation by e-mail to foreign journalists to visit Marjah, saying the trip would &#8220;show who has the upper hand in the area&#8221;.

About 15,000 NATO and Afghan troops are taking part in the big offensive around Marjah, which has an estimated 80,000 inhabitants and was the largest southern town under Taliban control. NATO hopes to rush in aid and public services as soon as the town is secured to try to win the loyalty of the population.

Roadside bomb: Separately, NATO said a roadside bomb killed a service member taking part in the Marjah operation on Tuesday - the third confirmed death among international forces since the attack on the town began. An American and a Briton were also killed on Saturday.

NATO did not identify the latest victim by nationality. 

Meanwhile, US officials said that Taliban resistance in Marjah seemed more disorganised than in previous days, when small teams of insurgents swarmed around Marine and Afghan army positions firing rifles, machine guns and rocket-propelled grenades. *ap*

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## fawwaxs




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## fawwaxs




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## fawwaxs

*Analysis: Afghan offensive tests Obama's war plan*

WASHINGTON &#8212; Even more than the combat under way in strategic Helmand province, what comes after this first major battle of President Barack Obama's Afghanistan surge will test his strategy to blunt the Taliban and begin to withdraw U.S. forces next year.

There are questions about whether meaningful numbers of Taliban fighters can be scared off by U.S. firepower or bought off in a future amnesty outreach. U.S. Marines are meeting stubborn resistance and slower going than some expected in the early days of the offensive around the rich farming district of Marjah, although it is too soon to say whether the Taliban intend to mount a prolonged battle.

Ambitious plans to install a responsible local government once the fighting stops raise questions about how long the Americans intend to stay. On its face, the campaign to make Marjah independent and strong enough to resist the Taliban commits the United States and other countries to a lengthy stay in a bad neighborhood.

Obama has promised to begin bringing U.S. forces home in July of next year. He has set no deadline for ending the war outright, but military analysts assume U.S. forces will have to remain in volatile southern Afghanistan far beyond that initial drawdown.

A longtime hotbed of Taliban activity, Marjah is likely to be dominated by thousands of U.S. and Afghan forces in the short term. The U.S. military plans to remain for as long as it takes to make sure the Taliban cannot return, and commanders have set no deadlines either for the duration of the fighting or the duration of the holding operation that will follow.

Experts say that the next couple of months should reveal whether the operation worked.

"The center of gravity is the Afghan people," said Richard "Ozzie" Nelson, a former White House counterterrorism expert now at the Center for Strategic and International Studies.

"The Afghan government has to maintain security and operate on its own," Nelson said. "But the Afghan people have to accept the government" and reject the Taliban.

In a bid to try to win over the local population, U.S. officials waited to launch Saturday's operation until they had explicit permission from the Afghan government and were able to storm the town with significant numbers of Afghan forces. About 15,000 NATO and Afghan troops are taking part in the big offensive around Marjah.

Military officials say they are learning from past mistakes. The offensive is designed with an "Afghan face," meaning more and better trained Afghan soldiers and a reserve of some 2,000 trained Afghan police slated to take the lead in policing the town after shooting subsides.

Economic development will quickly follow, with military and civilian workers striving to "show a better way of life" to the town's inhabitants, White House press secretary Robert Gibbs said Tuesday.

Gibbs said the operation "demonstrates the security forces of Afghanistan in the lead, working with others as partners to make progress against the Taliban."

Gen. Stanley McChrystal, the top U.S. and NATO commander in Afghanistan, says he is ready to unwrap an Afghan "government in a box" to take over in Marjah after the Taliban are expelled as a fighting force. Police, courts and local services are at the top of the to-do list.

It's all part of the counterinsurgency theory Obama has adopted that says if people feel safe and fairly treated, they will reject the insurgents who oppress them while also providing services the ostensibly legitimate government cannot.

Implicit in the Marjah strategy is the assumption that the Taliban cannot be defeated in a military sense, only marginalized and hollowed out. It also depends on a steady flow on international aid and development expertise that has been promised but over which the Obama administration does not hold full control.

For McChrystal, Obama's hand-picked commander, the Marjah offensive is the first large operation planned and run under his command and with his changes to military rules of engagement and mindset in place. For example, he has forbidden certain kinds of assaults on occupied dwellings that would make the Marjah offensive easier in the short run but raise the likelihood of civilian casualties and thus the likelihood of losing the support of the local population.

"What's important about this operation is that it is the first major operation in which we will demonstrate, I think successfully, that the new elements of the strategy" will work, White House national security adviser James Jones said on "Fox News Sunday." Jones, a retired Marine general, listed economic reform and good local governance in the same breath with the security bought with military might.

"That's where I get really skeptical," said Georgetown University professor C. Christine Fair, a former U.N. official in Afghanistan.

"I don't know where they found 2,000 Afghan police who are competent" to lead security for such a large and strategic place, Fair said, and she doubts the U.S. assertion that most Taliban foot soldiers are motivated by money or expediency instead of ideology.

"Where is the data coming from to support that optimism?" she asked.

A Taliban spokesman claimed Tuesday that insurgents retain control of the town and that coalition forces who "descended from helicopters in limited areas of Marjah" were now under siege.

Spokesman Tariq Ghazniwal extended an invitation by e-mail to foreign journalists to visit Marjah, saying the trip would "show who have the upper hand in the area."

EDITOR'S NOTE _ Anne Gearan has covered national security affairs for The Associated Press since 2004. Anne Flaherty has covered military affairs for the AP since 2006
The Associated Press: Analysis: Afghan offensive tests Obama&#39;s war plan

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## fawwaxs

U.S. Marines from 3rd Battalion, 6th Marine Regiment move on a compound in the early morning in Marjah in Afghanistan's Helmand province on Tuesday Feb. 16, 2010. (AP Photo/David Guttenfelder)


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## S-2

C.J. Chivers, embedded with the marine company closest to the incident, writes on what he knows of the errant rocket strike which killed 12 civilians on Sunday here-

Marines in Afghan Assault Grapple With Civilian Deaths - NYT Feb. 16, 2010

Rajiv Chandrasekaran reports on efforts of B Co. 1/6 Marines inside Marjah's Koru Chreh bazaar area to secure the area. The found eight mortar rounds newly daisy-chained inside the market-

U.S., Afghan Forces Work To Secure Key Areas Inside Marjah-WAPO Feb.17, 2010

Here's more on the same effort by 1/6 Marines inside Marjah as reported by Michael Phillips of the WSJ-

Site of Marjah Government Offices Seized - WSJ Feb. 17, 2010

Thanks.


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## Thomas

BBC News - Afghanistan Taliban 'using human shields' - general

*Taliban militants are increasingly using civilians as "human shields" as they battle against a joint Afghan-Nato offensive, an Afghan general has said.*

Gen Mohiudin Ghori said his soldiers had seen Taliban fighters placing women and children on the roofs of buildings and firing from behind them.

The joint offensive in southern Helmand province has entered its fifth day.

US Marines fighting to take the Taliban haven of Marjah have had to call in air support as they come under heavy fire.

They have faced sustained machine-gun fire from fighters hiding in bunkers and in buildings including homes and mosques.


*They are trying to get us to fire on them and kill the civilians*
Gen Moheedin Ghori
Afghan National Army

Gen Ghori, the senior commander for Afghan troops in the area, accused the Taliban of taking civilians hostage in Marjah and putting them in the line of fire.

*"Especially in the south of Marjah, the enemy is fighting from compounds where soldiers can very clearly see women or children on the roof or in a second-floor or third-floor window,"* he is quoted by Associated Press as saying.

"They are trying to get us to fire on them and kill the civilians."

As a result, his forces were having to make the choice either not to return fire, he said, or to advance much more slowly in order to distinguish militants from civilians.

Nato has stressed that the safety of civilians in the areas targeted in the joint Nato and Afghan Operation Moshtarak is its highest priority.
Civilians outside Marjah watch a US military patrol, 16 Feb
Nato has said that safeguarding civilians is its top priority

Journalist Jawad Dawari, based in Lashkar Gah, told BBC Pashto that Taliban fighters remained in many residential areas of Marjah and were defending their positions with heavy weapons.

"It is difficult for the Afghan army and Nato to storm Taliban-held areas because to do so may inflict heavy civilian casualties and there are still a lot of civilians in Marjah.

"Whenever they launch an attack, the Taliban take refuge in civilians' homes."

He had spoken to many local people in Marjah, he said, and they had all said the Nato offensive had made little progress since the first day.

An Afghan military official had told reporters that the backbone of the resistance came from foreign fighters - Pakistani and Arab - and that it was feared they might resort to suicide attacks, he added.

Improvised bombs

As well as meeting pockets of stiff resistance, the troops taking part in the offensive have been having to deal with large numbers of improvised bombs, the BBC's Frank Gardner in Kandahar says.


Himars rocket system

Day-by-day report and map
Civilians die in Kandahar strike

American forces have found a so-called "daisy chain" - a long bomb rigged up from mortar bombs, rocket-propelled grenades and a motorbike, our correspondent says.

And British engineers have deployed a device called a "python" - a length of explosives designed to set off mines and clear a safe path through them, he says.

Afghan army chief of staff Besmillah Khan told the AFP news agency the threat from improvised bombs meant gains were coming "slowly".

Meanwhile, to the north, British forces have discovered an insurgent cache of stolen Afghan army and police uniforms.

The find suggests the Taliban could have been planning attacks disguised as Afghan security personnel, our correspondent says.

Nato says discussions with the local population on how to bring lasting security to the area are continuing, our correspondent adds.

British and Afghan troops are reported to be advancing more swiftly in the nearby district of Nad Ali than are their US and Afghan counterparts in Marjah.

Missiles 'on target'

The commander of British forces in southern Afghanistan said on Tuesday a missile that struck a house outside Marjah on Sunday killing 12 people, including six children, had hit its intended target.

Maj Gen Nick Carter said the rocket had not malfunctioned and the US system responsible for firing it was back in use. Officials say three Taliban, as well as civilians, were in the house.

Initial Nato reports said the missile had landed about 300m (984ft) off its intended target. Gen Carter blamed these "conflicting" reports on "the fog of war".

He said that protecting the local population remained at the heart of the operation.

Speaking on Tuesday, Dawud Ahmadi - a spokesman for Helmand Governor Gulab Mangal - said the Afghan National Army and Nato forces were clearing areas around Marjah of mines.

Mr Ahmadi said that 1,240 families had been displaced and evacuated from Marjah - and all had received aid in the provincial capital, Lashkar Gah.

Operation Moshtarak, meaning "together" in the Dari language, is the biggest coalition attack since the Taliban fell in 2001.

Allied officials have reported only two coalition deaths so far - one American and one Briton killed on Saturday.


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## S-2

The NYT report above yours from the BBC highlights that the report of three taliban among the civilians killed hasn't been confirmed and that the report was from the Afghan Ministry Of Defense. C.J. Chivers of the NYT was with the unit of marines who witnessed the rocket strike and they immediately rushed (under fire) to the scene, applied first-aid and requested a medevac (initially driven off by ground fire although marked with a red-cross) but couldn't save a woman badly wounded. No weapons have been as yet recovered from the scene so this story isn't done.

The fact that the HIMARS hadn't malfunctioned indicates a target location error or that the taliban in the house managed to flee before the ordnance arrived.

The human shield issue should be anticipated. It's been clear for some time that most of the local community couldn't evacuate the area. Maybe by taliban intent.

Thanks.


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## Spring Onion

*Afghan army raises flag on embattled Taliban town*

By ALFRED de MONTESQUIOU and RAHIM FAIEZ, Associated Press Writers Alfred De Montesquiou And Rahim Faiez, Associated Press Writers &#8211; 25 mins ago
MARJAH, Afghanistan &#8211; Military commanders raised the Afghan flag in the bullet-ridden main market of the Taliban's southern stronghold of Marjah on Wednesday as firefights continued to break out elsewhere in town between holed-up Taliban and U.S. and Afghan troops.

About 15,000 NATO and Afghan troops are taking part in the offensive around Marjah, a town of about 80,000 people that was the largest population center in southern Helmand province under Taliban control. NATO hopes to rush in aid and public services as soon as the town is secured to try to win the loyalty of the population.

With the assault in its fifth day, an Afghan army soldier climbed to the roof of an abandoned shop and raised a large bamboo pole with Afghanistan's official green-and-red flag. A crowd including the provincial governor, a few hundred Marine and Afghan troops and handfuls of civilians &#8212; Afghan men in turbans and traditional loose tunics who were searched for weapons as they entered the bazaar &#8212; watched from below.

The market was calm during the ceremony and Marines there said they are in control of the neighborhood.

But the detritus of fighting was everywhere. The back of the building over which the flag waved had been blown away. Shops were riddled with bullet holes. Grocery stores and fruit stalls had been left standing open, hastily deserted by their owners. White metal fences marked off areas that had not yet been cleared of bombs.

Afghan soldiers said they were guarding the shops to prevent looting and hoped the proprietors would soon feel safe enough to return.

The Marines and Afghan troops "saw sustained but less frequent insurgent activity" in Marjah on Wednesday, limited mostly to small-scale attacks, NATO said in a statement.

Marine officials have said that Taliban resistance has started to seem more disorganized than in the first few days of the assault, when small teams of insurgents swarmed around Marine and Afghan army positions firing rifles, machine guns and rocket-propelled grenades.

The offensive in Marjah &#8212; about 380 miles (610 kilometers) southwest of Kabul &#8212; is the biggest assault since the 2001 U.S.-led invasion of Afghanistan and a major test of a retooled NATO strategy to focus on protecting civilians, rather than killing insurgents.

Even with caution on both the NATO and Afghan side, civilians have been killed. NATO has confirmed 15 civilian deaths in the operation. Afghan rights groups say at least 19 have been killed.

Insurgents are increasingly using civilians as human shields &#8212; firing at Afghan troops from inside or next to compounds where women and children appear to have been ordered to stand on a roof or in a window, said Gen. Mohiudin Ghori, the brigade commander for Afghan troops in Marjah.

"Especially in the south of Marjah, the enemy is fighting from compounds where soldiers can very clearly see women or children on the roof or in a second-floor or third-floor window," Ghori said. "They are trying to get us to fire on them and kill the civilians."

Ghori said troops have made choices either not to fire at the insurgents with civilians nearby or they have had to target and advance much more slowly in order to distinguish between militants and civilians as they go.

One Afghan soldier said that he has seen many civilians wounded as they were caught in the crossfire.

"I myself saw lots of people that were shot, and they were ordinary people," said Esmatullah, who did not give his rank and like many Afghans goes by one name. He said some were hit by Taliban bullets and some by Marine or Army troops.

Taliban "were firing at us from people's homes. So in returning fire, people got shot," he said.

In northern Marjah, U.S. Marines fanned out through poppy fields, dirt roads and side alleys to take control of a broader stretch of area from insurgents as machine gun fire rattled in the distance.

The Marines found several compounds that had primitive drawings on their walls depicting insurgents blowing up tanks or helicopters, a sign that Afghan troops say revealed strong Taliban support in the neighborhood. 

Lt. Col. Brian Christmas, commander of 3rd Battalion, 6th Marines, said security has improved enough in the north of town for Afghan police to step in. Other Marine units have taken control of main locations in the center of town. 

"Bringing in the Afghan police frees up my forces to clear more insurgent zones," Christmas said. 

Combat engineers were building a fortified base at the entrance of town for the police, who are expected to arrive Thursday. 

Afghan police chosen for the task in Marjah were selected from other regions of the country instead of Helmand province, Marine officials said, in order to avoid handing over day-to-day security to officers who may have tribal or friendship ties to the Taliban. 

Four NATO service members have been killed in the Marjah operation. An American and a Briton were killed on Saturday, while two others whose nationalities were not identified were killed Tuesday. One Afghan soldier has also been killed. 

About 40 insurgents have been killed, Helmand Gov. Gulab Mangal told reporters in Lashkar Gah, the nearby provincial capital, after the flag-raising. 

Troops are encountering less fire from mortars and RPGs than at the start of the assault, suggesting that the insurgents may have depleted some of their reserves or that the heavier weapons have been hit, Ghori said. 

Nevertheless, Taliban have not given up. Insurgent snipers hiding in haystacks in poppy fields have exchanged fire with Marines and Afghan troops in recent days as they swept south. 

A Marine spokesman said the zone appeared quieter Wednesday than on previous days, but was likely to flare up again. 

"This thing is going to have peaks where we establish ourselves, and then they're going to make the next push into the city," Capt. Abraham Sipe said. 

NATO said it has reinstated use of a high-tech rocket system that it suspended after two rockets hit a house on the outskirts of Marjah on Sunday, killing 12 people, including at least five children. 

The military coalition originally said the missiles went hundreds of yards (meters) off target but said Tuesday that it determined that the rockets hit the intended target. 

Afghan officials said three Taliban fighters were in the house at the time. 

___ 

Associated Press writer Rahim Faiez reported from Helmand province.


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## TruthSeeker

*Taliban commander, 4 al Qaeda fighters killed in raid near Marja*

By Bill Roggio, LWJ, February 16, 2010 7:13 PM

Afghan and Coalition special operations forces killed a Taliban commander who works with foreign fighters and 10 Taliban and al Qaeda operatives during a raid *in a region just outside the battle zone in Marja in Helmand province.*

During a raid in the district of Washir, the combined force targeted and killed Mullah Sarajudin, the Taliban commander, along with four al Qaeda operatives and six Taliban fighters. Washir lies just north of the district of Nad Ali, where Afghan and Coalition forces have launched a massive operation to take control of the city of Marja and the surrounding areas.

"Troops late Monday night targeted a hideout out of Taliban rebels in Washir district, *killing Mullah Sarajudin along with four Arab militants,*" a spokesman for Helmand province told Xinhuan News.

Sarajudin, who is also known as Mullah Hukmat, "was involved in organizing anti-government activities and arranged contact between Taliban and Arab fighters," Xinhuan News reported. He was a district-level Taliban commander in nearby Farah province during Taliban rule from 1996 to 2001, according to Quqnoos.

The International Security Assistance Force press office confirmed the raid, and said more than 10 fighters were killed during a series of running battles as the Taliban and al Qaeda fighters attempted to leave the area.

The district of Washir is one of three in Helmand that are currently under Taliban control, Mohammed Gulab Mangal, the Governor of Helmand province said in a press conference. The northern district of Bughrun and the southern district of Deshu are also considered to be outside government control.

The Taliban are expected to flee to Washir, and to neighboring Farah and Nimroz provinces, where Afghan and Coalition forces are thin, US military and intelligence officials told The Long War Journal at the outset of the operation in Marja. Just days prior to the operation, Afghan and Coalition forces established blocking positions to the north, south, and west of Marja in an attempt to fix and kill any Taliban fighters fleeing the fight.

The Taliban may also flee north to Bughrun and south to the Taliban-controlled border town of Baramcha in Desho. Once in Baramcha, the Taliban can easily cross into Pakistan's province of Baluchistan, a known Taliban haven.

Read more: Taliban commander, 4 al Qaeda fighters killed in raid near Marja - The Long War Journal


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## waraich66

Marjah Offensive: Five foreign soldiers killed in southern Afghanistan
Font size: Decrease font Enlarge font
ennahar 13 February, 2010 05:24:00
image

KABUL (Afghanistan) - Two foreign soldiers were killed Saturday in southern Afghanistan in addition to the three Americans who had died that morning in a bomb blast, said the NATO force, without specifying whether it was during the Marjah offensive.

*
"A member of the International Force for Security Assistance (ISAF) was killed in the explosion of a missile in the south today and another died in a firefight with light weapons" also in the south, we read in a terse statement from the NATO force that does not specify their nationalities. "Three U.S. soldiers of ISAF were killed after the detonation of a missile in the south,"had indicated a previous text of the ISAF, without elaborating either.
*

Neither text did not specify whether these soldiers were killed in the Marjah offensive, where 15,000 soldiers of international and Afghan forces - Americans in the lead - launched in the night, a major offensive against the Taliban stronghold in Helmand province.
*

In the afternoon, a captain of the Afghan army had told AFP that a U.S. soldier of ISAF was killed and three others wounded in a suicide attack against their convoy on the outskirts of Kandahar, 200 km west of Marjah.
*

With these five deaths, the number of foreign soldiers killed in Afghanistan since the start of the year is 71, according to an AFP count. The Taliban insurgency, which has increased considerably over the past two years has caused 520 deaths in the ranks of international forces in 2009, by far the highest record in eight years of war.
*

2010 will be last year of ISAF in Afghanistan


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## fawwaxs



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## fawwaxs

*Afghan resistance statement Invitation of the Islamic Emirate to (independent) Journalists to Visit Marjah*

Since the enemy have forced the international media through coercion and cash incentives to make partial reporting about (the current fighting) to make it possible to hide their shameful defeat in the Marjah area of Nad Ali district, Helmand province, therefore, the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan requests all independent mass media outlets of the world to send their reporters to Marjah; see the situation with their own eyes and convey the facts to the public of the world.

Such visit will portray the ground realities and will show who have the upper hand in the area; what are the facts and who control vast areas of Marjah? In fact, the invading forces have made no spectacular advancement since the beginning of the operations. They have descended from helicopters in limited areas of Marjah and now are under siege.

The invaders are not able to come out of their ditches. Wherever they intend to move, they come under severe attacks of Mujahideen and face explosions of planted mines. Then they retreat hastily. The enemy troops have lost their morale. The local people are beholding the foreign troops crying loudly.

If the coalition invading forces give permission to independent reporters, they will unearth many secrets.

Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan 
Afghan resistance statement Invitation of the Islamic Emirate to (independent) Journalists to Visit Marjah :: www.uruknet.info :: informazione dal medio oriente :: information from middle east :: [vs-1]


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## S-2

Snipers and fairly complex tactics are evolving as part of the battlefield milieu in Marjah. C.J. Chivers, embedded with K Co. 3/6 Marines, was with 1st Platoon as they manuevered west from the eastern end of their company area of operations when they came under fire from an AK to their south. Orienting that way, they then began to take well-placed sniper fire from their back to the north.

This is a slow, tedious and dangerous grind-

Snipers Imperil U.S. Troops in Offensive in Afghanistan - NYTimes Feb. 17, 2010

Thanks.


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## Ahmad

fawwaxs said:


> *Afghan resistance statement Invitation of the Islamic Emirate to (independent) Journalists to Visit Marjah*
> 
> Since the enemy have forced the international media through coercion and cash incentives to make partial reporting about (the current fighting) to make it possible to hide their shameful defeat in the Marjah area of Nad Ali district, Helmand province, therefore, the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan requests all independent mass media outlets of the world to send their reporters to Marjah; see the situation with their own eyes and convey the facts to the public of the world.
> 
> Such visit will portray the ground realities and will show who have the upper hand in the area; what are the facts and who control vast areas of Marjah? In fact, the invading forces have made no spectacular advancement since the beginning of the operations. They have descended from helicopters in limited areas of Marjah and now are under siege.
> 
> The invaders are not able to come out of their ditches. Wherever they intend to move, they come under severe attacks of Mujahideen and face explosions of planted mines. Then they retreat hastily. The enemy troops have lost their morale. The local people are beholding the foreign troops crying loudly.
> 
> If the coalition invading forces give permission to independent reporters, they will unearth many secrets.
> 
> Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan
> Afghan resistance statement Invitation of the Islamic Emirate to (independent) Journalists to Visit Marjah :: www.uruknet.info :: informazione dal medio oriente :: information from middle east :: [vs-1]



But the problem is that the reporters will not go for a reason: What is the guarantee that the Taliban dont take the journalists as hostages and then behead them? they have done it in the past. And i dont think the taliban would be that keen either to let the reporters go everywhere they want, they will mostly like report about the human sheilds tactics of the taliban, unless the taliban limit their movements and let them in places that they(taliban) want them(reporters) to go.


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## S-2

It's a death sentence for a reporter. Not by losing their head but by being shot or bombed by ISAF. This isn't a trek through Konar and Nuristan. It's a mid-intensity infantry battle being fought in a fairly defined space. The land is flat and bare right now and there are a crapload of UAVs that are up. Movement is seen and, if certain to be taliban and absent civilians, attacked.

No reporter wants a piece of that and all the guarantees in the world by the taliban won't stop an ISAF bomb, mortar or artillery shell.

This battle will proceed slowly in deference to the civilians all throughout the area. Civilians, btw, that were mined in and kept from departing. Part of the taliban's plan. We've plenty of reports and intel indicating the use of human shields with women and children forced ot rooftops while taliban fire from within structures.

Such holy bravery is commonplace with the irhabists.

Thanks.

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## Metallic

*Taliban ammunition 'running low' *
*18 FEBRUARY 2010*

Taliban militants battling coalition troops in Marjah, in Afghanistan, are running out of ammunition, Nato officials say.

A BBC correspondent in Kandahar says that from eavesdropping on Taliban communications, Nato understands militants have called for support. 

On Wednesday, an Afghan general said Taliban fighters were increasingly using civilians as "human shields". 

The Afghan-Nato offensive in Helmand province has entered its sixth day. 

Officials say they expect stiff resistance. 

Nato officers told BBC security correspondent Frank Gardner in Kandahar that the resistance they were currently encountering was coming from small, disjointed but determined groups of fighters. 

*Air support*

In the next few days, US Marines and Afghan government troops are due to push into south-west Marjah, which is believed to be an insurgent stronghold. 

During fighting on Wednesday, US Marines had to had to call in air support as they came under heavy fire from fighters hiding in bunkers and in buildings including homes and mosques. 

Afghan commander Gen Mohiudin Ghori said his soldiers had seen Taliban fighters placing women and children on the roofs of buildings and firing from behind them.

Gen Ghori, the senior commander for Afghan troops in the area, told the AP news agency: "Especially in the south of Marjah, the enemy is fighting from compounds where soldiers can very clearly see women or children on the roof or in a second-floor or third-floor window. 

"They are trying to get us to fire on them and kill the civilians." 

Nato has stressed the safety of civilians in the areas targeted during Operation Moshtarak is its highest priority. 

One villager who had fled to Helmand's provincial capital, Lashkar Gah, told BBC Pashto that relatives could not leave Marjah because the area was heavily mined. 

"They say they can't get out of their home. If anyone takes a look outside they are fired upon by the Nato troops - they have no food left and can't go out to shop. 

"The Taliban left some places but are now resisting very strongly." 

*Tribal shura*

On Wednesday, Helmand's governor, Gulab Mangal, visited Marjah and later travelled to Camp Bastion to visit injured civilians from the area.

Nato reports that he held a shura - a council meeting - with local tribal elders and officials to discuss security in Nad Ali. 

British and Afghan troops have been reported to be advancing more swiftly in the nearby district of Nad Ali than are their US and Afghan counterparts in Marjah. 

Afghan officials say that more than 1,200 families have been displaced and evacuated from Marjah and all are receiving aid in Lashkar Gah. 

Operation Moshtarak, meaning "together" in the Dari language, is the biggest coalition offensive since the Taliban fell in 2001. 



_Source: BBC News_

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## Ahmad

Gulab Mangal is alot more capable governer compare to the previous Hlmand governers. I wish success to this true son of the country.

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## DaRk WaVe

​


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Haven't read through the entire thread, so I apologize if this has been mentioned already, but it is nice to see Pakistan's COIN tactics and strategy from Swat and SW being replicated, albeit on a smaller scale, by ISAF.

A pretty large validation of Pakistan's strategy and tactics, especially after all the vitriol poured on the PA by people like Fareed Zakaria and various other talking heads, who were calling the Swat Ops an unmitigated disaster.

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## Ahmad

they have to be patient, and push this operation in precision, otherwise it will cause civilian casualty, that will be the last thing afghan gov and nato would want.


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## Tiger Awan

self delete


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## Thomas

*Afghan Offensive May Take a Month, U.K. General Says (Update2)
February 18, 2010, 03:56 PM EST
By Viola Gienger*

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-02-18/afghan-offensive-may-take-a-month-u-k-general-says-update2-.html

Feb. 18 (Bloomberg) -- A joint Afghan-NATO offensive against Taliban insurgents in southern Afghanistan will take &#8220;another 25 to 30 days,&#8221; the top coalition commander for the area said today.

British Major General Nick Carter said his forces are &#8220;very happy&#8221; with the pace of operations in northern Helmand Province and are making &#8220;slow but steady progress&#8221; in the area of the main target, the town of Marjah.

The operation by 15,000 U.S. Marines and Afghan and British troops aims to wipe out a Taliban stronghold whose opium crop has helped fund the guerrilla movement. It is the biggest operation against the Taliban since the 2001 U.S.-led invasion of Afghanistan.

&#8220;It will take us another 25 to 30 days to be entirely sure that we have secured&#8221; the Taliban haven, Carter told reporters at the Pentagon via satellite from Afghanistan.

The North Atlantic Treaty Organization-led forces and their Afghan counterparts continue to encounter &#8220;stiff resistance&#8221; from insurgents in Marjah, with progress slowed by the need to clear improvised explosive devices, Carter said.

&#8220;U.S. Marines, in partnership with Afghan security forces, are still fighting an intense series of actions in the process of clearing Marjah as a whole,&#8221; he said.

*Winning Confidence*

It might take another 120 days for the Afghan soldiers, gendarmerie and police, along with government civilians, to win the initial confidence of the local people, he said.

&#8220;In three months time or thereabouts, we should have a pretty fair idea about whether we&#8217;ve been successful,&#8221; Carter said.

The offensive is the biggest joint military campaign with the Afghan National Army, which the U.S. and its allies aim to train in time to start a drawdown of foreign forces in July 2011. It&#8217;s also the first major test of how U.S. Army General Stanley McChrystal, the top commander in Afghanistan, will use the 30,000 added forces that President Barack Obama authorized in December.

Most of these additional forces are being targeted for southern Afghanistan&#8217;s Helmand and Kandahar provinces, where the Taliban-led insurgency has been strongest, including shadow governments throughout much of the region of about 3 million.

*Death Toll*

Four coalition troops were killed in the operation today, three of them in two separate roadside bomb explosions. That adds to four U.S. troops, one British and one Afghan soldier who had died earlier. About 10 civilians were killed on the second day of the offensive and a few more have been injured in the past three to four days, Carter said.

McChrystal&#8217;s strategy, endorsed by Obama with the additional troops, focuses as much on protecting and winning over the population as killing militants.

&#8220;The Marjah offensive will test the president&#8217;s new strategy, and show whether a population-centered strategy can work,&#8221; Anthony Cordesman, a military analyst at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington, said in a report today.

Some parts of Marjah are clear enough for Afghan gendarmerie to enter yesterday and begin reassuring the population, Carter said. The provincial governor, Mohammad Gulab Mangal, who has been involved in the planning of the operation, went into part of Marjah yesterday.

The next stage will be to &#8220;roll eastwards into Kandahar,&#8221; Carter said. More U.S. and other troops are scheduled to come into Afghanistan from March onward as part of the surge, and additional Afghan security forces coming available every week will aid that next push.


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## waraich66

Thomas said:


> *Afghan Offensive May Take a Month, U.K. General Says (Update2)
> February 18, 2010, 03:56 PM EST
> By Viola Gienger*
> 
> Afghan Offensive May Take a Month, U.K. General Says (Update2) - BusinessWeek
> 
> Feb. 18 (Bloomberg) -- A joint Afghan-NATO offensive against Taliban insurgents in southern Afghanistan will take another 25 to 30 days, the top coalition commander for the area said today.
> 
> British Major General Nick Carter said his forces are very happy with the pace of operations in northern Helmand Province and are making slow but steady progress in the area of the main target, the town of Marjah.
> 
> The operation by 15,000 U.S. Marines and Afghan and British troops aims to wipe out a Taliban stronghold whose opium crop has helped fund the guerrilla movement. It is the biggest operation against the Taliban since the 2001 U.S.-led invasion of Afghanistan.
> 
> It will take us another 25 to 30 days to be entirely sure that we have secured the Taliban haven, Carter told reporters at the Pentagon via satellite from Afghanistan.
> 
> The North Atlantic Treaty Organization-led forces and their Afghan counterparts continue to encounter stiff resistance from insurgents in Marjah, with progress slowed by the need to clear improvised explosive devices, Carter said.
> 
> U.S. Marines, in partnership with Afghan security forces, are still fighting an intense series of actions in the process of clearing Marjah as a whole, he said.
> 
> *Winning Confidence*
> 
> It might take another 120 days for the Afghan soldiers, gendarmerie and police, along with government civilians, to win the initial confidence of the local people, he said.
> 
> In three months time or thereabouts, we should have a pretty fair idea about whether weve been successful, Carter said.
> 
> The offensive is the biggest joint military campaign with the Afghan National Army, which the U.S. and its allies aim to train in time to start a drawdown of foreign forces in July 2011. Its also the first major test of how U.S. Army General Stanley McChrystal, the top commander in Afghanistan, will use the 30,000 added forces that President Barack Obama authorized in December.
> 
> Most of these additional forces are being targeted for southern Afghanistans Helmand and Kandahar provinces, where the Taliban-led insurgency has been strongest, including shadow governments throughout much of the region of about 3 million.
> 
> *Death Toll*
> 
> Four coalition troops were killed in the operation today, three of them in two separate roadside bomb explosions. That adds to four U.S. troops, one British and one Afghan soldier who had died earlier. About 10 civilians were killed on the second day of the offensive and a few more have been injured in the past three to four days, Carter said.
> 
> McChrystals strategy, endorsed by Obama with the additional troops, focuses as much on protecting and winning over the population as killing militants.
> 
> The Marjah offensive will test the presidents new strategy, and show whether a population-centered strategy can work, Anthony Cordesman, a military analyst at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington, said in a report today.
> 
> Some parts of Marjah are clear enough for Afghan gendarmerie to enter yesterday and begin reassuring the population, Carter said. The provincial governor, Mohammad Gulab Mangal, who has been involved in the planning of the operation, went into part of Marjah yesterday.
> 
> The next stage will be to roll eastwards into Kandahar, Carter said. More U.S. and other troops are scheduled to come into Afghanistan from March onward as part of the surge, and additional Afghan security forces coming available every week will aid that next push.



Operation may take months,years ----US Gen

Problem is not the number of troops , even ISAF increase their forces to 150 or 200K level they could not get desired results.

Talaban are using snipers effectively


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## DaRk WaVe

Fundamentalist said:


> Operation may take months,years ----US Gen
> 
> Problem is not the number of troops , even ISAF increase their forces to 150 or 200K level they could not get desired results.
> 
> *Talaban are using snipers effectively*



 

yeah right the snipers of US army are rag tag idiots right?

Thinking about 6th Army Bogged down By Russians in Stalingrad?
I am sorry to burst your bubbles but even a 5,000 Snipers with their rusty dragunovs can't hold them for long


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## waraich66

EmO GiRl said:


> yeah right the snipers of US army are rag tag idiots right?
> 
> Thinking about 6th Army Bogged down By Russians in Stalingrad?
> I am sorry to burst your bubbles but even a 5,000 Snipers with their rusty dragunovs can't hold them for long



Coming summer will become hell for ISAF marines carrying 60 kg extra load and wearing bulletproof jackets, 90+Deg C Temp will roast them in desert of Helmond.

They need soldiers who can bear temperature of desert .*Green card soldiers* from europe could not fight in Afghanistan.


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## DaRk WaVe

Fundamentalist said:


> Coming summer will become hell for ISAF marines carrying 60 kg extra load and wearing bulletproof jackets, 90+Deg C Temp will roast them in desert of Helmond.
> 
> They need soldiers who can bear temperature of desert .*Green card soldiers* from europe could not fight in Afghanistan.



 you think they are that stupid & they would not have thought about it

you tell me what how you came to conclusion that



> Problem is not the number of troops , even ISAF increase their forces to 150 or 200K level they could not get desired results.
> 
> Talaban are using snipers effectively



Snipers can no way stop the offensive but they can slow it down

you think Americans , Brits etc were never trained for desert?
Think again

Desert Warfare Training Pushes to the Extremes - CJTF-HOA News2

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## waraich66

EmO GiRl said:


> you think they are that stupid & they would not have thought about it
> 
> you tell me what how you came to conclusion that
> 
> 
> 
> Snipers can no way stop the offensive but they can slow it down
> 
> you think Americans , Brits etc were never trained for desert?
> Think again
> 
> Desert Warfare Training Pushes to the Extremes - CJTF-HOA News2



In 2007 they already lost war in helmond desert , this their second attempt ,chances of victory are low.

You can fight with nations but can not fight with mother nature.


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## DaRk WaVe

Fundamentalist said:


> In 2007 they already lost war in helmond desert , this their second attempt ,*chances of victory are low*.



how 'exactly', will your Highness explain me, or you mean those snipers with rusty dragunovs are making the life so miserable for ISAF 



> You can fight with nations but can not fight with mother nature.



Childish uneducated comment, armies have fought in -30 degree Celsius in WW2 & now we are living in 2010, Don't rant please

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## S-2

*"you think they are that stupid & they would not have thought about it..."*

You're handling him beautifully. Nothing I can add except that I've trained in 50C+ heat often for weeks and we fought in Iraqi heat for the last seven years. Oh, btw, our marines were in Helmand all last summer. The Brits for the last four years.

He's just not very bright.

Thanks.

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## fatman17

*Fighting By Taliban Rules And Winning*

February 16, 2010: 

Pakistan confirmed that it had captured the number two Afghan Taliban leader, Mullah Abdul Ghani Brader, in Karachi. This happened last week, in a joint U.S.-Pakistani intelligence operation. Mullah Abdul was the chief military planner for Afghanistan. Senior Afghan Taliban leaders have long been suspected of hiding in Karachi, along with hundreds of Afghan and Pakistani Taliban who have fled there. That's because the city is home to over two million Pushtuns (out of a city population of 12 million). About half these Pushtuns are Afghans (refugees from the 1980s war with Russia) and their children. Since Pushtuns, as a group, are ill equipped for urban living (low literacy, and few technical skills), most are poor. The low rent neighborhoods are full of Pushtuns, who are also overrepresented in criminal gangs. But the Pushtuns are closely watched by the police, and have earned some peace by not encouraging or supporting terrorists. Whenever this understanding is violated, as it is from time to time, the police lock a lot of people up, and even expel Afghans from the country. This last threat is much feared, and there's really no way to protect yourself from it, other than having done the cops some favors in the counter-terrorism department. So the fleeing Taliban expect shelter in Karachi, but not a new base from which to plan and carry out more terrorist attacks. Mullah Abdul could hide in Karachi, but the large reward for his capture provides the kind of economic opportunity Pushtuns are looking for in the big city. In the last year, many senior Afghan Taliban have moved from Quetta (the largest city in Baluchistan, in southwest Pakistan), to Karachi, because the Pakistani government began allowing American missile armed UAVs to operate in Baluchistan, and Pakistani intelligence threatened to come after the many Taliban living openly in Quetta. Mullah Abdul has been active in peace negotiations between the Afghan government and the Afghan Taliban. These talks have not been going far of late, but that may change with Mullah Abdul in custody. 
The fighting in Marjah would be going more quickly were it not for the more strict ROE (Rules Of Engagement), intended to minimize civilian casualties. The Taliban and drug gangs have invested a lot in the local media, to make each civilian death, at the hands of foreign troops, a major story. The majority of civilian combat deaths are at the hands of the Taliban or drug gangs, and the local media plays those down (or else). It's a sweet deal for the bad guys, and a powerful battlefield tool. The civilians appreciate the attention, but the ROE doesn't reduce overall civilian deaths, because the longer the Taliban have control of civilians in a combat situations, the more they kill. The Taliban often use civilians as human shields, and kill those who refuse, or are suspected of disloyalty. In places like Marjah, civilians are eager to get the Taliban killed or driven away, as quickly as possible. The number of civilian deaths, at the hands of NATO/Afghan forces, in the operations around Marhah, are spectacularly low by historical standards. The troops know this, some of the civilians know this, but the media doesn't care and the Taliban need a media win, as a way to extract something that is, otherwise, a military disaster for them. 

U.S./NATO commanders are making the best of the situation, knowing that they have troops capable of driving the civilian casualties way down (at some cost to friendly troops, in terms of their own casualties and time spent under fire), and that the tribal leaders appreciate dealing with outsiders who look out for the locals. That sort of thing rarely happens in Afghanistan, although such good deeds rarely go unpunished. The local tribal leaders will still lie, cheat and steal when dealing with outsiders. But the tribal leaders see the Afghan government, and their NATO allies, as a better deal than the Taliban and the drug gangs. The Taliban imposed seemingly random lifestyle rules on locals, and forced families to surrender daughters as wives for Taliban fighters (this built loyalty in the groom, but perpetual hostility from his new in-laws.) The drug gangs were gangsters, and acted like it. They had too much money, too much power and corrupted the youth with a gangster lifestyle, and drug addiction (usually opium). While some of the locals were getting rich off the drug trade, the majority wanted it gone. It won't be known if the battle of Marjah is won for several months after the shooting stops. The key actions take place when Afghan police and officials come in to rebuild the local government. People in Marjah are expecting the usual corruption and incompetence, but NATO has tried to put together an Afghan team that will work more effectively than in the past. Marjah is a big test for Afghan troops, and civil administrators. There is more confidence in the Afghan troops, who are led by NCOs and officers who have years of experience, along with months of training from NATO trainers and military schools. The Afghan units still don't come off as tight and together as their foreign counterparts. But to the practiced eye, the Afghan troops sent into Marjah seem to know what they are doing, and confident of getting the job done. 

February 15, 2010: In Helmand province, an American air strike killed a local Taliban commander, and five Arab terrorists who worked for him. In Marjah, the remaining Taliban have recovered from the shock and disorganization they felt after the initial NATO assault. The Taliban had rigged several neighborhoods with boobytraps and roadside bombs, and placed gunmen in homes that also held civilians being used as human shields. Clearing out these areas takes a while, as it requires locating the bombs and getting an idea of how many enemy gunmen were around, and how many civilians they were holding. Sometimes, the Taliban were seen moving outside at night, with some civilian captives as a form of protection from the Americans (who are known to see in the dark, and strike without warning via missile armed UAVs). The Taliban do eventually lose these neighborhood battles, but it can take the better part of the day to clear a few blocks, and a few dozen, enemy gunmen. Some of the locations being cleared had long been used as a Taliban bases or safe houses. In some cases, troops discovered rooms full of weapons, explosives or other military equipment. The intelligence troops were doing well, picking up documents, memory sticks and the occasional laptop. Lots of good intel on Taliban ops throughout Helmand province. 

February 14, 2010: In southern Kandahar, NATO and Afghan troops captured two local Taliban leaders, in separate operations. Both of the Taliban supervisors were in charge of planning and carrying out roadside bomb and mine attacks in a particular area. There is a lot of effort being put into shutting down the several dozen organizations that actually plan and execute these attacks throughout southern Afghanistan. Each Taliban cell that gets shut down, means that, for a while, attacks will sharply decline in a town or chunk of countryside, until the Taliban can rebuild their local bomb organization. Meanwhile, two smart bombs (guided missiles) missed their target and hit the wrong compound, killing twelve civilians. Major win for the Taliban. 

February 13, 2010: The long promised (and advertised) assault on the southern town of Marjah began in earnest, with a surprise, pre-dawn. helicopter assault into the middle of the town. This, and the well planned ground assault, disrupted Taliban defense plans for a while. Taliban propaganda had promised a heroic resistance, and defeat of the foreign troops. No one believed that, and the smart money was on the foreigners. Despite weeks of advance warning, most civilians have stayed in Marjah, and NATO radio broadcasts warn civilians to stay inside until the fighting is over, or Afghan or foreign troops come by and say that it is safe. Most of the explosions heard in the town are Taliban bombs going off. These make a different sound than the smart bombs (including GPS guided artillery shells and rockets) used by the foreign troops. The 15,000 U.S. (marines), British and Afghan troops are facing up to 2,000 Taliban fighters. Some Taliban were detected fleeing the town in the last few weeks, and it's unclear how many of the Taliban remaining will actually fight. Because of the ROE, a Taliban can simply put down his firearms, and walk away from a compound full of armed men.

February 12, 2010: Preliminary military operations began on the outskirts of Marjah.

February 11, 2010: NATO and Afghan troops have halted movement on all the roads out of the town of Marjah. Taliban fighters (even if travelling without their weapons) can no longer freely leave. This indicates that the battle is about to begin. The more active NATO and Afghan military operations in Helmand for the last few weeks has disrupted Taliban and drug gang activities. For the last year, there has been increasing pressure on the drug gangs in Helmand, and their business has declined. Attempts to move opium and heroin production to other parts of Afghanistan have largely failed.


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## waraich66

EmO GiRl said:


> how 'exactly' will your Highness explain me, or you mean those snipers with rusty dragunovs are making the life so miserable for ISAF
> 
> 
> 
> Childish uneducated comment, armies have fought in -*30 degree* Celsius in WW2 & now we are living in 2010, Don't rant please



I am talking about temperature of 80-90 deg C and above in summer of helmond desert, which will be real test for ISAF , when their electronic equipments will stop working.

Better you take intrest in cooking and baking


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## DaRk WaVe

Fundamentalist said:


> *I am talking about temperature of 80-90 deg C* and above in summer of helmond desert, which will be real test for ISAF , when their electronic equipments will stop working.
> 
> Better you take intrest in cooking and baking



another uneducated comment, The Highest Temperture recorded on the face of the planet was on September 13, 1922, in El Azizia, Libya (near the Sahara desert), the temperature reached 136 degrees Fahrenheit (58 Celsius).

I am thinking if it was to reach 80-90 C, then why amerians need troops in Helmand Taliban will melt themselves, after all you cannot fight mother nature  

don't rant please

EDIT: this is for your education, Your Highness
http://www.gsfc.nasa.gov/scienceques2001/20020524.htm

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## Tiger Awan

Fundamentalist said:


> I am talking about temperature of *80-90 deg C *and above in summer of helmond desert, which will be real test for ISAF , when their electronic equipments will stop working.
> 
> Better you take intrest in cooking and baking



plz give me some references for this high temperature. I can not find it.

What I find is that 45-50 is common. This means maximum of 60. ( 70 in order to please you  )

But 80-90 ????


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## waraich66

S-2 said:


> *"you think they are that stupid & they would not have thought about it..."*
> 
> You're handling him beautifully. Nothing I can add except that I've trained in 50C+ heat often for weeks and we fought in Iraqi heat for the last seven years. Oh, btw, our marines were in Helmand all last summer. The Brits for the last four years.
> 
> He's just not very bright.
> 
> Thanks.



But you dont have experience of soldiers wearing bullet proof jackets with 60Kg extra weight moving in 50C+ temperature under the fear of snippers and IED's.

Operation desert strom was just one sided game.


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## Tiger Awan

Fundamentalist said:


> But you dont have experience of soldiers wearing bullet proof jackets with 60Kg extra weight moving in 50C+ temperature under the fear of snippers and IED's.
> 
> Operation desert strom was just one sided game.



my dear usa army is just a baby. They haven't fought any battle outside thier country and about deserts !!!!!!!

They even do not know how to live in deserts. Chances of survival are "0"


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## waraich66

EmO GiRl said:


> another uneducated comment, The Highest Temperture recorded on the face of the planet was on September 13, 1922, in El Azizia, Libya (near the Sahara desert), the temperature reached 136 degrees Fahrenheit (58 Celsius).
> 
> I am thinking if it was to reach 80-90 C, then why amerians need troops in Helmand Taliban will melt themselves, after all you cannot fight mother nature
> 
> don't rant please
> 
> EDIT: this is for your education, Your Highness
> Science Question of the Week - highest temperature recorded - May 24, 2002



80-90 + deg temp is under direct sun light , i have to educate you also


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## waraich66

Tiger Awan said:


> plz give me some references for this high temperature. I can not find it.
> 
> What I find is that 45-50 is common. This means maximum of 60. ( 70 in order to please you  )
> 
> But 80-90 ????



Under the dirrect sun light desert temperature some times rise above 90C Deg.


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## DaRk WaVe

Fundamentalist said:


> 80-90 + deg temp is under direct sun light , i have to educate you also



this means the people there can be melted easily, can you be more stupid than that, talk about hypocrasiy ehh

Bring just one scientific report that says that ever on Gods Green & Barren Earth we ever had a temp nearing 80-90 C & i will walk out

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_weather_records#Highest_temperature_ever_recorded
Come on 

PS: Don't say me angles will come down to raise the Temperature & clouds will come over Taliban while ISAF will melt with heat

see ya


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## Tiger Awan

Fundamentalist said:


> Under the dirrect sun light desert temperature some times rise above 90C Deg.



Well temperature inside tanks raise to about 55-60 C at maximum in their desert exercises. (as far I know)

And ok let us suppose it is 90 then

Then this temperature is just unbearable for any human. Because excess of water will be lost. No matter how much they people are adopted to an area water boiling temperature is the same.

So in order to survive, direct exposure to sun should be avoided and excess of water supplies are needed.

Which force is in better position to meet these requirements???

Taliban are already blocked and asking for help from outside.


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## waraich66

EmO GiRl said:


> this means the people there can be melted easily, can you be more stupid than that, talk about hypocrasiy ehh
> 
> Bring just one scientific report that says that ever on Gods Green & Barren Earth we ever had a temp nearing 80-90 C & i will walk out
> Come on
> 
> PS: Don't say me angles will come down to raise the Temperature & clouds will come over Taliban while ISAF will melt with heat



OK ,do this experiment yourself , close the doors of your car and park it under the sun for just one hour in peak summer ,then measure internal temperature , you will get the fact.

Electrical panel installed without any shed should comply 80Deg C + specifications.


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## ptldM3

Fundamentalist said:


> Coming summer will become hell for ISAF marines carrying 60 kg extra load and wearing bulletproof jackets, 90+Deg C Temp will roast them in desert of Helmond.
> 
> They need soldiers who can bear temperature of desert .*Green card soldiers* from europe could not fight in Afghanistan.



My uncle surved in Afghanistan, he's from one of the coldest places on earth, yet his Spetsnaz unit was able to take out 250 Mujas with just 40 men, and no casualties may i add. This means that the Americans should also have no problems esspecially when US troop have the opportunity to train in HOT desert climates of the South West United States.


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## waraich66

ptldM3 said:


> My uncle surved in Afghanistan, he's from one of the coldest places on earth, yet his Spetsnaz unit was able to take out 250 Mujas with just 40 men, and no casualties may i add. This means that the Americans should also have no problems esspecially when US troop have the opportunity to train in HOT desert climates of the South West United States.



What about green card soldiers motivation level , how you can improve it?

US is inducting soldiers from poor europian countries for Green Card 


Green Card Recruits Get a Raw Deal

by Katherine Stapp

The U.S. government says Staff Sgt. Camilo Mejia is nothing more than a deserter who disobeyed direct orders to return to his army unit in Iraq.

Mejia does not deny that he refused to go back. He says he witnessed abuse and mistreatment of prisoners at a detention camp outside the Baghdad airport, including mock executions and sleep deprivation tactics like banging sledgehammers on the walls of cells.

His claims took on added credibility in light of the ongoing revelations of abuse, including torture, at Abu Ghraib and other detention centers in Iraq, as well as at the Guantanamo Bay naval base in Cuba, which houses hundreds of detainees captured during the U.S. "war on terrorism" in Afghanistan.

"It was not speculative that he felt forced to participate in war crimes," said Todd Ensign, one of Mejia's attorneys. "He was there for five months, seeing these things first-hand. He had a duty under international law not to return to the Gulf."

But in a twist, Mejia, a Costa Rican citizen, also argues that under an 1851 treaty between his homeland and the United States, he cannot be forced to perform compulsory military service beyond eight years.

And as one of the 40,000 foreign nationals in the U.S. military, his case has drawn attention to a U.S. government program that offers the lure of citizenship in exchange for military service.

"Poor people are always desperate," said Rodolfo Acuna, a professor of Chicano Studies at California State University at Northridge. "That is why they sell their body parts, or have them taken from them. As the war proceeds, there will be more recruitment from minority and poor white areas. Opportunity in the U.S. is limited, making the service an alternative for the poor."

These efforts do not end at the border. News accounts describe military recruiters traveling to poor border towns in Mexico and indigenous communities in Canada to entice people with U.S. green cards (permanent resident status) to join the army.

And under the Hispanic Access Initiative, recruiters are encouraged to target colleges and high schools with predominantly Latino students  many of whom may be illegal. They can even obtain access to students' addresses and phone numbers, and are free to contact them at home unless parents object.

Mejia was in his ninth year when he came home to Miami Beach on a 14-day leave and decided that he could not in good conscience continue to serve in Iraq.

However, the soldier's arguments failed to sway the military jury that on May 21 found the 28-year-old guilty of desertion and sentenced him to a year in the stockade, demotion in rank to private, and docking of his pay.

"After eight years, foreign nationals cannot serve unless they're in the citizenship process," Ensign told IPS. "Camilo says his commanders tried to pressure him into applying for citizenship, which made him wonder what was going on."

"He was really being held illegally, and this is another prong in his defense," he said. "We're considering filing in federal court, and the Costa Rican government may get involved."

Mejia is the first soldier to turn himself in to military authorities after refusing to serve in Iraq, but he may not be the last. So far, an estimated 600 U.S. soldiers have gone absent without leave (AWOL) rather than be sent overseas.

Critics say that once in the service, non-citizens have little hope of advancement, since they cannot be made officers or achieve any position requiring a security clearance.

"Non-citizens are more unlikely to be in the Air Force, Navy and support services, more unlikely to have a good education, so they'll be on the front lines. The military knows that their parents don't vote, so no complaints. It is very cynical," Acuna added.

Still, some 13,000 recruits had applied for expedited citizenship as of February, according to government figures.

Some of the very first casualties of Operation Iraqi Freedom were immigrants seeking citizenship. José Antonio Gutiérrez, a Guatemalan who crossed illegally into the United States at the age of 11 and later joined the Marines, was the second soldier killed in the war.

José Angel Garibay emigrated from Mexico to California as a young child, and hoped to be a career soldier. His quest for full legal status ended in March 2003, when he died during heavy fighting in Nasiriyah, Iraq.

Both men were granted posthumous citizenship. But a bill that would provide citizenship benefits to spouses, parents and children of enlistees killed overseas has been languishing in Congress since last year.

The Census Bureau estimates that eight to nine million illegal aliens live in the United States, though other sources say the number is much higher. About 33 million legal residents (12 percent of the U.S. population) are foreign-born.

Exchanging citizenship for military service is not new; during the Persian Gulf War, the Vietnam War and other conflicts, some 100,000 non-citizens became eligible for accelerated U.S. citizenship.

In July 2002, President George W. Bush shortened the three-year waiting time for qualified non-citizens on active duty in the "war on terrorism," allowing them to apply immediately upon enlisting.

But as U.S. casualties pile up, more immigrants may think twice about the price of legal status.

Mejia continues to speak publicly against what he views as an "oil-driven" conflict.

"When you look at the war, and you look at the reasons that took us to war, and you don't find that any of the things that we were told that we're going to war for turned out to be true; when you don't find there are weapons of mass destruction, and when you don't find that there was a link between Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda, and you see that you're not helping the people and the people don't want you there," he added on a recent television news show.

"To me, there's no military contract and no military duty that's going to justify being a part of that war."

(Inter Press Service)


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## Ahmad

Fundamentalist said:


> Coming summer will become hell for ISAF marines carrying 60 kg extra load and wearing bulletproof jackets, 90+Deg C Temp will roast them in desert of Helmond.
> 
> They need soldiers who can bear temperature of desert .*Green card soldiers* from europe could not fight in Afghanistan.



After 8 years, how come now you are thinking of this temprature problem? it looks like you and your killer buddies are running out of other options and only have a eye for a temp rise to defeat ANA and nato.


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## Thomas

Fundamentalist said:


> 80-90 + deg temp is under direct sun light , i have to educate you also



You are really starting to make a fool of yourself Fundamentalist. you have absolutely no concept of what you are talking about. The U.S., British, and French have long experience in desert warfare. 

Your in danger of being another Fanboi.


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## waraich66

Thomas said:


> You are really starting to make a fool of yourself Fundamentalist. you have absolutely no concept of what you are talking about. The U.S., British, and French have long experience in desert warfare.
> 
> Your in danger of being another Fanboi.



UK and German no doubt have experience of desert war in WW2. After that operation desert storm was the only operation held but proved one sided game ended within few weeks.

I am not expert of Gurrilla war strategies just wanted to see your expert opinion.


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## waraich66

Unity said:


> After 8 years, how come now you are thinking of this temprature problem? it looks like you and your killer buddies are running out of other options and only have a eye for a temp rise to defeat ANA and nato.



In gurrllia war following factor play major role 

1.Environment 
2.Congo(fighting spirit)
3 Experience 

In all these three important areas ISAF is lacking far behind the Talaban Mujahdeen, Hence chances of their success is very low.

Heavy weapons and air support are not much important in Gurrilla war fare.


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## Ahmad

Fundamentalist said:


> In gurrllia war following factor play major role
> 
> 1.Environment
> 2.Congo(fighting spirit)
> 3 Experience
> 
> In all these three important areas ISAF is lacking far behind the Talaban Mujahdeen, Hence chances of their success is very low.
> 
> Heavy weapons and air support are not much important in Gurrilla war fare.



Those who are fighting a war are all profesional people being trained in extreme conditions, dont worry our mujahideen will be defeated eventually. Didnt we see that PA defeated Mujahideen of Pakistan in Swat?


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## fawwaxs

Six Nato soldiers have died in Afghanistan's Helmand province so far in the current joint Nato-Afghan offensive in the region.

A US marine general says his forces now have control of the main roads and markets in the Taliban stronghold of Marjah. But fighting is still raging in other parts.

Al Jazeera's James Bays sat down with Mohammad Golab Mangal, the governor of Helmand province, to discuss the joint assault. The governor says that, so far, the operation has been a success.
Al Jazeera English - CENTRAL/S. ASIA - Helmand offensive 'a success'


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## DaRk WaVe

Fundamentalist said:


> OK ,do this experiment yourself , close the doors of your car and park it under the sun for just one hour in peak summer ,then measure internal temperature , you will get the fact.
> 
> Electrical panel installed without any shed should comply 80Deg C + specifications.



another stupid hallucinated, un educated & illiterate comment by Funda-mental-ist

First you talked about temperature in direct sunlight, you yourself said that temperature in direct sunlight can reach above 90-C, you bring me just one scientific proof that where on God's Earth temperature reached 80-90C & i will walk out

now you have reached the temperature in car, looool
even inside cars the temperature cannot reach 80-90C knowing that there is something which exists by the name of air conditioner, I challenge you to prove me wrong

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## fawwaxs

*Pakistan concern at Afghanistan offensive*

Pakistan has raised fresh concerns to the US about Afghan refugees and fighters fleeing across the border to escape a major US-led offensive in neighbouring Afghanistan.

Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani raised the matter in talks with US special representative for Afghanistan and Pakistan, Richard Holbrooke, during talks in Islamabad, his office said.

The operation has been described as the biggest assault since the 2001 US-led invasion.

The offensive is targeting a major drug-producing area in Helmand province, which borders Pakistan's insurgency-rife Baluchistan province.

Northwest Pakistan is a stronghold of Taliban and al-Qaeda-linked fighters, hundreds of whom fled the 2001 US-led invasion of Afghanistan.

Mr Gilani expressed hope that 'Pakistan's concerns on account of spillover of refugees and militants from Helmand into southwestern Baluchistan and the northwest will be kept in view by the US and ISAF forces,' his office said.

He called for 'enhanced coordination and cooperation' with Pakistan's armed forces to deal with the situation.

Pakistan and the US are scheduled to hold talks later this year to discuss and bolster cooperation further in security and counter-terrorism.

Mr Gilani underlined 'the imperative of the strategic dialogue for building trust to remove the misperceptions or misgivings prevalent on both sides'.

RTÉ News: Pakistan concern at Afghanistan offensive


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## fawwaxs

*NATO briefs Pakistan on region*

BRUSSELS, Feb. 18 (UPI) -- Islamabad agrees that coordination with NATO and Afghanistan is a vital way to bring security to the region, the Pakistani foreign minister said in Brussels.

Pakistani Foreign Minister Shah Mahmood Qureshi visited NATO headquarters in Brussels to meet with Secretary-General Anders Fogh Rasmussen.

NATO, in a statement, said Qureshi and allied members agreed that the relationship extends beyond an operational agenda. It includes, NATO said, a "common strategic goal" of a peaceful Afghanistan run by a democratic government.

Washington military planners are in close coordination with their Pakistani counterparts regarding operational plans in Afghanistan.

NATO said it recognized Pakistan's commitment to security with its support for the Afghan mission and its willingness to take on militants inside its borders. Pakistan launched a military offensive in the volatile border regions in October.

Both sides noted that security in Afghanistan was linked to peace in Pakistan, something Washington stressed when it rolled out its new Afghan war strategy in December.

Military cooperation, meanwhile, between Afghanistan, Pakistan and NATO allies had progressed through a trilateral commission and through border coordination centers, NATO added.

NATO said it looked forward to a "deepening cooperation" with the government in Pakistan.


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## waraich66

Unity said:


> Those who are fighting a war are all profesional people being trained in extreme conditions, dont worry our mujahideen will be defeated eventually. Didnt we see that PA defeated Mujahideen of Pakistan in Swat?



How PA defeated TTP in SWAT?

1. Environment & Experience


Our soldiers (SSG) & Punjab Regment well trained in same environment and mostly units stationed in these area from last sixty years.TTP have little experience two or three years.

2. Fighting Spirit & Local political support.

TTP killed local elders , tribel leaders so they lost their local support , PA moral become high due to their unislamic actions ie bombing the mosques and killing religious clarics, PA fight with high moral and full support of Pakistani nation finally TTP defeated.

Better campare apple with apple


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## waraich66

EmO GiRl said:


> another stupid hallucinated, un educated & illiterate comment by Funda-mental-ist
> 
> First you talked about temperature in direct sunlight, you yourself said that temperature in direct sunlight can reach above 90-C, you bring me just one scientific proof that where on God's Earth temperature reached 80-90C & i will walk out
> 
> now you have reached the temperature in car, looool
> even inside cars the temperature cannot reach 80-90C knowing that there is something which exists by the name of air conditioner, I challenge you to prove me wrong



Again you started personal attacks indication of your weakness.

When you engage in discussion better learn to behave in positive way and be reasonable.


----------



## Ahmad

Fundamentalist said:


> How PA defeated TTP in SWAT?
> 
> 1. Environment & Experience
> 
> 
> Our soldiers (SSG) & Punjab Regment well trained in same environment and mostly units stationed in these area from last sixty years.TTP have little experience two or three years.
> 
> 2. Fighting Spirit & Local political support.
> 
> TTP killed local elders , tribel leaders so they lost their local support , PA moral become high due to their unislamic actions ie bombing the mosques and killing religious clarics, PA fight with high moral and full support of Pakistani nation finally TTP defeated.
> 
> Better campare apple with apple



This is apple to apple, your mujahideen and our mujahideen. PA a regular army and NATO/ANA(Although new) are also regular armies. You should remember that the coalition forces are strong regular armies being trained under extreme conditions, they are not people like you and me sitting in comfy in cananda and else where and talking nonsense from our keyboards. secondly they have gained enough experience about every sngle thing in the area and are well aware of it, dont you think 9 years is a very long time to learn your lessons and gain experience? Secondly paksitani army havent defeated the Mujahideen in Swat fully, the PA is having control in main areas, but outskirt of Swat is with the Mujahideen of yours. they simply melted away and will come back.

Look at this report from Swat:

The last time I was here in the Swat valley the Taliban were firmly in control.

It was just before the armies major offensive there and hope for a peace deal between the Taliban and the Government was high.

Within days of my visit the peace deal was in tatters.

Back then the drive into Swat was a tense one. Taliban checkpoints littered the picturesque valley and the turbaned guards had their AK 47 assault rifles on full display.

This time the journey is still tense, but main difference is the Taliban have been replaced by the green of Pakistan's army uniforms.

*The army pushed the Taliban out but things are still not back to normal.*

We have to pass through a number of army posts and at each one guns point towards our vehicle whilst searches are *carried out.

The Taliban still have a presence here, many say they are on the outskirts of the valley waiting for the army to leave.*

For the moment though the army is not going anywhere and it's presence is felt everywhere.

Some 30,000 troops are based here. Incredible when you realise the population of the valley is only 1.5 million.

That's not to suggest that the armies presence is all about heavy handed security, although that is a concern.

*They are heavily involved in reconstruction. You might think that is noble until hear the locals joke "Well of course they are rebuilding ... it was them who bombed the hell out of us in the first place!"*

Humour aside the thing that strikes you about the valley is how much work needs to be done.

*Millions of dollars have been promised, but little work seems to be going on.*

*There are food queues at some shops, and many of Swat's residents still don't have access to electricity or running water.*

But there is hope amongst all the fear ... at one sports ground young men with football shirts bearing names of such legend's as "Beckham" and "Ronaldo" kick around a ball and scream at the referee, much like young men do anywhere in the world...it was a heartening sight and one that filled this correspondent full of hope for Pakistan's future even as the armies armoured cars trundled by.

Return to the Swat valley | Al Jazeera Blogs

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## Ahmad

Fundamentalist said:


> Again you started personal attacks indication of your weakness.



She is giving you the taste of your own medicine.


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## Thomas

Fundamentalist said:


> In gurrllia war following factor play major role
> 
> 1.Environment
> 2.Congo(fighting spirit)
> 3 Experience
> 
> In all these three important areas ISAF is lacking far behind the Talaban Mujahdeen, Hence chances of their success is very low.
> 
> Heavy weapons and air support are not much important in Guerrilla war fare.



Here you go again Fundamentalist. Talking about something you know nothing about. Here are some the prerequisites for a successful guerrilla Campaign. 

1. *Popular support*. Support can be passive or active. It is not necessary that the entire population actively support an insurgency, but the majority of the population must passively support it. During the Soviet invasion there was wide support. Something the Taliban lack now.

2. *Unity of effort*. The overall thrust of an insurgent movement must provide a strength of unity that dedicates those involved to achieving the same goal. 

3. *Will to resist*. It is not enough for the population to resist their government passively; at least a portion must be willing to resist actively. 

4. *Leadership*. The activities and effort of the insurgent movement must be properly directed through the exercise of effective leadership. 

5. *Discipline*. The aspect of the movement must be strongly maintained to ensure security and obedience.

6. *Intelligence*. Because the insurgent movement is usually inferior in numbers and combat power in relation to government forces, the intelligence effort must provide security for the insurgent organization and information to conduct successful operations.

7. *Propaganda*. It is used to gain popular support and intensify the populace's dissatisfaction with the government.

8. *Favorable environment*. This includes attitudes of the people, the political environment, and the economic situation.

9. *External support*. The preceding eight conditions are theoretically the only ones that an insurgency must have to succeed. Historically, however, there seems to be one additional condition that must exist the condition of external support. This support may be physical or psychological. Examples of physical external support are equipment, weapons, supplies, ammunition, sanctuaries, personnel, and combat units. Examples of psychological external support include the political support given to the resistance when a country recognizes that movement in the world arena and the pressure a government might exert politically or economically to influence world opinion in favor of the movement.


In the interest of time (it's 4am here) I will not go much into counter insurgency at this time. It is a broad topic that can take up a whole page of it's own. I will say though that the U.S. has vast first hand experience in fighting a counter insurgency campaign. The thousands of Taliban that have died since they were driven from power attest to that fact. And with the U.S. being able to divert attention from Iraq to Afghanistan more and more. Expect a marked increase in Taliban deaths.

However there is always much to learn. Anyone that's says they know it all are fools. However one of the keys to a good counter insurgency campaign. Is to always be teachable and willing to change tactics depending on the situation. As with any protracted war though mistakes will happen. The question is do you learn from them.

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## booo

EmO GiRl said:


> another stupid hallucinated, un educated & illiterate comment by Funda-mental-ist
> 
> First you talked about temperature in direct sunlight, you yourself said that temperature in direct sunlight can reach above 90-C, you bring me just one scientific proof that where on God's Earth temperature reached 80-90C & i will walk out
> 
> now you have reached the temperature in car, looool
> even inside cars the temperature cannot reach 80-90C knowing that there is something which exists by the name of air conditioner, I challenge you to prove me wrong





Fundamentalist said:


> Again you started personal attacks indication of your weakness.
> 
> When you engage in discussion better learn to behave in positive way and be reasonable.



A little bit of googling will give you the answer world's hottest place - Google Search

A third of the world's land is deserted, mostly hot, dry deserts in which life has little to no chance of surviving. These deserts are some of the hottest places in the world. A good example is El Azizia, in northern Africa, which recorded 150°F (66°C) in 1922. Scientists believe this is not, in fact, the hottest place in the world, but it's certainly the hottest where humans have ever set foot. Death Valley, encompassing a good portion of both Nevada and California, is a close contingent for the hottest place in the world, with temperatures reaching 134°F (56.6°C) on more than one occasion. 

Now, where did you get this 90°C numbers from?

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## DaRk WaVe

Fundamentalist said:


> Again you started personal attacks indication of your weakness.
> 
> When you engage in discussion better learn to behave in positive way and be reasonable.



I am sorry , your highness but i have not done any personal attack & i don't need to tell people around about the personal attacks been done by you, your highness

if you have answer for my question then please answer it & prove me wrong & i will walk out & moreover a person who is telling that in Desert temperature reached is 80-90C has got no right to educate us about been 'reasonable'

thanks


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## waraich66

EmO GiRl said:


> I am sorry , your highness but i have not done any personal attack & i don't need to tell people around about the personal attacks been done by you, your highness
> 
> if you have answer for my question then please answer it & prove me wrong & i will walk out & moreover a person who is telling that in Desert temperature reached is 80-90C has got no right to educate us about been 'reasonable'
> 
> thanks



*It is important to note that when atmospheric temperatures are recorded it is not the surface temperature, where it can sometimes reach 150&#176; F/ 66&#176; C, but rather the air temperature at about 5 feet (1.6 m) above the surface in an enclosed shelter. Of course, it's important that the temperature sensor is not exposed to direct sunlight - the shelter is louvered to permit air flow across the sensor. Most humans don't 'hang out' where some of the hottest tempertatures on earth are regularly experienced so there aren't a lot of meterological stations in these places to reliably record extreme temperatures.*

Hottest Place on Earth


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## S-2

*"Death Valley, encompassing a good portion of both Nevada and California, is a close contingent for the hottest place in the world, with temperatures reaching 134°F (56.6°C) on more than one occasion."*

I lived as a child in Ft. Irwin, California on the edge of Death Valley. I've trained as a soldier there and in Twentynine Palms, California where there's a HUGE U.S. Marine Corps Base and is less than 150miles away in miserable desert. 

How miserable? A medic stuck a thermometer in the ground one day and recorded a ground temperature of 132F. We've spent years in Iraq and years in Kandahar/Helmand. Nobody likes that heat but, given all the equipment we carry, our troops do just fine and might understand living and fighting in the desert as well as any military in the world. Not better, mind you, but at least as well.

Thanks.


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## waraich66

booo said:


> A little bit of googling will give you the answer world's hottest place - Google Search
> 
> A third of the world's land is deserted, mostly hot, dry deserts in which life has little to no chance of surviving. These deserts are some of the hottest places in the world. A good example is El Azizia, in northern Africa, which recorded 150°F (66°C) in 1922. Scientists believe this is not, in fact, the hottest place in the world, but it's certainly the hottest where humans have ever set foot. Death Valley, encompassing a good portion of both Nevada and California, is a close contingent for the hottest place in the world, with temperatures reaching 134°F (56.6°C) on more than one occasion.
> 
> Now, where did you get this 90°C numbers from?



It is important to note that when atmospheric temperatures are recorded it is not the surface temperature, where it can sometimes reach 150° F/ 66° C, but rather the air temperature at about 5 feet (1.6 m) above the surface in an enclosed shelter. *Of course, it's important that the temperature sensor is not exposed to direct sunlight *- the shelter is louvered to permit air flow across the sensor. Most humans don't 'hang out' where some of the hottest tempertatures on earth are regularly experienced so there aren't a lot of meterological stations in these places to reliably record extreme temperatures.

Hottest Place on Earth

90Deg C and above under direct sun light is possible in desert


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## Ahmad

Fundamentalist said:


> *It is important to note that when atmospheric temperatures are recorded it is not the surface temperature, where it can sometimes reach 150&#176; F/ 66&#176; C, but rather the air temperature at about 5 feet (1.6 m) above the surface in an enclosed shelter. Of course, it's important that the temperature sensor is not exposed to direct sunlight - the shelter is louvered to permit air flow across the sensor. Most humans don't 'hang out' where some of the hottest tempertatures on earth are regularly experienced so there aren't a lot of meterological stations in these places to reliably record extreme temperatures.*
> 
> Hottest Place on Earth



Have you ever been in war in your life? I havent fought a war, but have experiened and wittnessing it first hand myself. I was being caught in cross fire as a civilian. It has almost happened many many times to us in our lives that you couldnt imagine, we were actually used to such situation - 30 years of war is not a joke, we have spent all our life this way. When you are in war, all those condditions wont affect you as you dont think about all those things, cold, hot etc. you simply focus on the battle if you are a soldier and if you are a civilian caught in the battlefield like me, you will try to save your life and find somewhere safe. Trust me the extreme cold never affected us during the battle time. it might affect you in cold like Siberia or hot in Africa, but certainly not in Afghanistan.


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## DaRk WaVe

Fundamentalist said:


> It is important to note that when atmospheric temperatures are recorded it is not the surface temperature, where it can sometimes reach 150&#176; F/ 66&#176; C, but rather the air temperature at about 5 feet (1.6 m) above the surface in an enclosed shelter. *Of course, it's important that the temperature sensor is not exposed to direct sunlight *- the shelter is louvered to permit air flow across the sensor. Most humans don't 'hang out' where some of the hottest tempertatures on earth are regularly experienced so there aren't a lot of meterological stations in these places to reliably record extreme temperatures.
> 
> Hottest Place on Earth
> 
> 90Deg C and above under direct sun light is possible in desert



where the hell is written that there is going to be a temperature difference of like 30 C between the surface & 5 feet above the surface  
do you know Hot air is less dense and experiences a buoyant force, just like a bubble of air in water. A temperature difference of 30 C means there will no gas on the surface at all, how are those snakes living in desert 

Helmand Desert is not among the hottest deserts
anyways *I give up*


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## DaRk WaVe

​

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## Tiger Awan

Fundamentalist I have many friends who are joining army. Some as combat soldiers and some as Engineers and Doctors.

With those who are in PMA I have no contact for 6 months (until they are on leave) but I tell you what the training even the engineers are having is good to make them strong enough to face hot climates.

Can not imagine i have to tell you these basic things. 

Are all army generals fool?

They can not imagine that the equipment their soldiers are using will cease to work in Helmand?


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## Patriot

9 years and now trying to clear a major part of Afghanistan.Speaks a lot about their capability.


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## DaRk WaVe

​


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## S-2

The thermometer story was simply an illustration. However, I can assure it only varied by 10-15F from the ambient air temp. 

Lunacy to even entertain this guy's drivel.

Thanks.


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## Thomas

*Elite U.S. Marines Airdropped Into Taliban-Held Territory*

Elite U.S. Marines Airdropped Into Taliban-Held Territory - Afghanistan | Map | War - FOXNews.com

*MARJAH, Afghanistan*  Elite Marine recon teams were dropped behind Taliban lines by helicopter Friday as the U.S.-led force stepped up operations to break resistance in the besieged insurgent stronghold of Marjah.

About two dozen Marines were inserted before dawn into an area where skilled Taliban marksmen are known to operate, an officer said, speaking on condition of anonymity because of security concerns.

Other squads of Marines and Afghans, marching south in a bid to link up with Marine outposts there and expand their territory, came under sniper fire and rocket attacks by midday. The rattle of machine-gun fire and the thud of mortars echoed nearby.

The Marjah offensive, now in its seventh day, is the biggest since the 2001 U.S.-led invasion of Afghanistan and a test of President Barack Obama's strategy for reversing the rise of the Taliban while protecting civilians.

A NATO statement said troops were still meeting "some resistance" from insurgents who engage them in firefights, but homemade bombs remain the key threat to allied and Afghan forces.

Six coalition troops were killed Thursday, NATO said, making it the deadliest day since the offensive began. The death toll so far is 11 NATO troops and one Afghan soldier. Britain's Defense Ministry said two British soldiers were among those killed Thursday.

No precise figures on Taliban deaths have been released, but senior Marine officers say intelligence reports suggest more than 120 have died. The officers spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to release the information.

As U.S. and Afghan troops moved south Friday, they continued to sweep through houses, searching for bombs and questioning residents.

One man came forward to the Marines and revealed a Taliban position a mile away. The man, who was not identified for security reasons, said he was angry because insurgents had earlier taken over his home.

He gave U.S. forces detailed information, saying more than a dozen Taliban fighters were waiting to ambush troops there. The position was rigged with dozens of homemade bombs and boobytraps, he said.

"Some of them are from here. Some are from Pakistan. Some are from other countries, but they don't let us come close to them so I don't know where they are from," said poppy farmer Mohammad Jan, 35, a father of four.

Brig. Gen. Mohiudin Ghori, who is in charge of Afghan troops in the offensive, said security responsibilities in a few sections of town, including the main bazaar, had been turned over to Afghan police, although they will continue to get assistance from Afghan soldiers.

"Police in the area need support from ANA (Afghan National Army) all the time," he said.

Ghori said five suspected militants who had stashed Afghan army and police uniforms in their homes had been arrested. They were handed over to intelligence services, he said. Infiltration of police and army ranks by insurgents has been a constant concern.

U.S. and Afghan troops encountered skilled sharpshooters and better-fortified Taliban positions Thursday, indicating that insurgent resistance in their logistics and opium-smuggling center was far from crushed.

A Marine general said Thursday that U.S. and Afghan allied forces controlled the main roads and markets in town, but fighting raged elsewhere in the southern farming town.

Brig. Gen. Larry Nicholson, commander of U.S. Marines in Marjah, told The Associated Press that allied forces had taken control of the main roads, bridges and government centers in the town of 80,000 people about 360 miles southwest of Kabul.

"I'd say we control the spine" of the town, Nicholson said as he inspected the Marines' front line in the north of the dusty, mud-brick town. "We're where we want to be."

British Maj. Gen. Nick Carter, NATO commander in southern Afghanistan, told reporters in Washington via a video hookup that he expects it could take another 30 days to secure Marjah.

Throughout Thursday, U.S. Marines pummeled insurgents with mortars, sniper fire and missiles as gunbattles intensified. Taliban fighters fired back with rocket-propelled grenades and rifles, some of the fire far more accurate than Marines have faced in other Afghan battles.

The increasingly accurate sniper fire  and strong intelligence on possible suicide bomb threats  indicated that insurgents from outside Marjah are still operating within the town, Nicholson said.

Under NATO's "clear, hold, build" strategy, the allies plan to secure the area and then rush in a civilian Afghan administration, restore public services and pour in aid to try to win the loyalty of the population in preventing the Taliban from returning.

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## waraich66

Thomas said:


> Here you go again Fundamentalist. Talking about something you know nothing about. Here are some the prerequisites for a successful guerrilla Campaign.
> 
> 1. *Popular support*. Support can be passive or active. It is not necessary that the entire population actively support an insurgency, but the majority of the population must passively support it. During the Soviet invasion there was wide support. Something the Taliban lack now.
> 
> 2. *Unity of effort*. The overall thrust of an insurgent movement must provide a strength of unity that dedicates those involved to achieving the same goal.
> 
> 3. *Will to resist*. It is not enough for the population to resist their government passively; at least a portion must be willing to resist actively.
> 
> 4. *Leadership*. The activities and effort of the insurgent movement must be properly directed through the exercise of effective leadership.
> 
> 5. *Discipline*. The aspect of the movement must be strongly maintained to ensure security and obedience.
> 
> 6. *Intelligence*. Because the insurgent movement is usually inferior in numbers and combat power in relation to government forces, the intelligence effort must provide security for the insurgent organization and information to conduct successful operations.
> 
> 7. *Propaganda*. It is used to gain popular support and intensify the populace's dissatisfaction with the government.
> 
> 8. *Favorable environment*. This includes attitudes of the people, the political environment, and the economic situation.
> 
> 9. *External support*. The preceding eight conditions are theoretically the only ones that an insurgency must have to succeed. Historically, however, there seems to be one additional condition that must exist the condition of external support. This support may be physical or psychological. Examples of physical external support are equipment, weapons, supplies, ammunition, sanctuaries, personnel, and combat units. Examples of psychological external support include the political support given to the resistance when a country recognizes that movement in the world arena and the pressure a government might exert politically or economically to influence world opinion in favor of the movement.
> 
> 
> In the interest of time (it's 4am here) I will not go much into counter insurgency at this time. It is a broad topic that can take up a whole page of it's own. I will say though that the U.S. has vast first hand experience in fighting a counter insurgency campaign. The thousands of Taliban that have died since they were driven from power attest to that fact. And with the U.S. being able to divert attention from Iraq to Afghanistan more and more. Expect a marked increase in Taliban deaths.
> 
> However there is always much to learn. Anyone that's says they know it all are fools. However one of the keys to a good counter insurgency campaign. Is to always be teachable and willing to change tactics depending on the situation. As with any protracted war though mistakes will happen. The question is do you learn from them.



All your prerequisite covered in my three points ,

1. Environment -conducive envirinment is big for talaban ,location,local population,language support,communication,availability of weapons ,weather conditions.

2.Congo(Fighting spirit) Their moral is very high ,fight for home land and Islam is desire of every muslim,ready for extreme sacrifices dont care of casualities, fighting without to gain material benfits to gain will of Allah only.

3. Experience-They are at war from last 30 years , well aware of ISAF tactics and trained for Gurrilla war strategy .Their organisational structure is also better under , they are one man cammand from last nine years ,they dont change their cammander frequently. ISAF changed their cammanders frequently.They have lighter weapons and advantage of speedy movement .They have also strategic depth from all sides because Afghanistan is land lock country all bouders are open for them .

Your analysis about lacking of talaban is not correct because ISAF desired result are not achieved in nine years.

Problem is not with your Generals, they know very well that they already lost this war , problem is with your political leadership majority (80&#37 of them are anti Talaban because of their faith and friendship with OBL and they are elected by Zoinist lobby support .Your president is also speaking their language that Afghan war is necessity not choice.


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## Thomas

Fundamentalist said:


> All your prerequisite covered in my three points ,
> 
> 1. Environment -conducive envirinment is big for talaban ,location,local population,language support,communication,availability of weapons ,weather conditions.
> 
> 2.Congo(Fighting spirit) Their moral is very high ,fight for home land and Islam is desire of every muslim,ready for extreme sacrifices dont care of casualities, fighting without to gain material benfits to gain will of Allah only.
> 
> 3. Experience-They are at war from last 30 years , well aware of ISAF tactics and trained for Gurrilla war strategy .Their organisational structure is also better under , they are one man cammand from last nine years ,they dont change their cammander frequently. ISAF changed their cammanders frequently.They have lighter weapons and advantage of speedy movement .They have also strategic depth from all sides because Afghanistan is land lock country all bouders are open for them .
> 
> Your analysis about lacking of talaban is not correct because ISAF desired result are not achieved in nine years.
> 
> Problem is not with your Generals, they know very well that they already lost this war , problem is with your political leadership majority (80%) of them are anti Talaban because of their faith and friendship with OBL and they are elected by Zoinist lobby support. Your president is also speaking their language that Afghan war is necessity not choice.



I contemplated not even responding to this post. You make such outlandish claims in the face of overwhelming proof. Your almost like a teenager who thinks he knows it all. Yet lacks the real world experience to be knowledgeable. I recommend that instead of being a keyboard Jihadist. You go see for yourself the realities of fighting a guerrilla war. And see the amount of support (logistical and moral) the Taliban really have among the people. If they had the support that you claim they would not have people pointing out their positions to the ISAF in Marja. You would not have hundreds of tribal elders joining with the ISAF throughout Afghanistan. 

You need to stop drinking the extremist Kool-Aid and learn to think for yourself. And exercise some common sense. You should start listening to some of your fellow Pakistani forum members. Who actually live in Pakistan and see first hand what the Taliban are like.

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## Ahmad

Thomas said:


> I contemplated not even responding to this post. You make such outlandish claims in the face of overwhelming proof. Your almost like a teenager who thinks he knows it all. Yet lacks the real world experience to be knowledgeable. I recommend that instead of being a keyboard Jihadist. You go see for yourself the realities of fighting a guerrilla war. And see the amount of support (logistical and moral) the Taliban really have among the people. If they had the support that you claim they would not have people pointing out their positions to the ISAF in Marja. You would not have hundreds of tribal elders joining with the ISAF throughout Afghanistan.
> 
> You need to stop drinking the extremist Kool-Aid and learn to think for yourself. And exercise some common sense. You should start listening to some of your fellow Pakistani forum members. Who actually live in Pakistan and see first hand what the Taliban are like.



Leave him alone. He does not know what a war is. He hasnt suffered as the Afghans have been suffering for the last 30 years, he doesnt know what death and destruction is, he doenst know how painful it is to see your country a battlefield and being ruined all the way, let him have his lovely life in Canada and post a few things on the internet to make him happy.

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## fatman17

*US Marines seize Taliban headquarters in Marjah*

MARJAH: After a fierce gunbattle, US Marines seized a strongly defended compound on Friday that appears to have been Taliban headquarters &#8211; complete with photos of fighters posing with their weapons, dozens of Taliban-issued ID cards and graduation diplomas allegedly from a training camp in Pakistan.

The Taliban, who had been using the field office just south of Marjah&#8217;s town centre, abandoned it by the end of the day&#8217;s fighting, as Marines converged on them from all sides, escalating operations to break resistance in this Taliban stronghold in southern Helmand province.

Marines from Lima Company, 3rd Battalion, 6th Marines fought their way south from the town centre on Friday after residents told them that several dozen insurgent fighters had regrouped in the area.

Throughout the day, small groups of Taliban marksmen tried to slow the advance with rifle fire as they slowly fell back in face of the Marines assault.

&#8220;They know that they are outnumbered ... and that in the end they don&#8217;t have the firepower to compete with us conventionally,&#8221; said Lima Company, 3rd Battalion, 6th Marines Commander Captain Joshua Winfrey of Tulsa, Oklahoma.

Lima Company&#8217;s advance was part of a move by several Marine companies to converge on a pocket of Taliban fighters from all four directions. The Marines believe they&#8217;ve cornered what appeared to be a significant Taliban fighting force.

&#8220;It seems that it&#8217;s their last stand,&#8221; Winfrey said. 

NATO said two of its personnel died on Friday in a small-arms attack but did not identify the victim by nationality.

Six coalition troops were killed on Thursday, NATO said, making it the deadliest day since the offensive began on February 13.

Britain&#8217;s Defence Ministry said three British soldiers were among those killed on Thursday.

On Friday about two-dozen elite Marines were dropped by helicopter into an area where skilled Taliban marksmen are known to operate, an officer said.

A NATO statement said troops were still meeting &#8220;some resistance&#8221; from insurgents and homemade bombs remain the key threat. At a briefing in London, Major General Gordon Messenger said the militant holdouts don&#8217;t threaten the overall offensive but will take time to clear out. agencies

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## S-2

Funny that Fundamentalist was baying about the heat. We've had more MEDEVACS for hypothermia than gunshot. We've had more MEDEVACS for gunshot than IED. One marine had a frost-bitten fingertip. Anyway, it's a grunt war for sure-

War The Old-Fashioned Way-WAPO Feb. 20, 2010

It'll be weeks before they shower. It might be as long before mess-hall chow. They're running short of cigarettes. 

The marines seem happy.

Thanks.


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## DaRk WaVe

^^^^
Actually he said 'when summer will come', You know those 'snipers' will 'stretch' the war till summer

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## S-2

*"You know those 'snipers' will 'stretch' the war till summer"*

That's fine if they do. We've got nothing better to do but be Marjah marines, hang out, cop some rays...

...and kill 'em one sniper at a time.

No sense scaring the locals more than we need.

They say we've got the watches but they have the time. We'll see.

Thanks.


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## waraich66

Thomas said:


> I contemplated not even responding to this post. You make such outlandish claims in the face of overwhelming proof. Your almost like a teenager who thinks he knows it all. Yet lacks the real world experience to be knowledgeable. I recommend that instead of being a keyboard Jihadist. You go see for yourself the realities of fighting a guerrilla war. And see the amount of support (logistical and moral) the Taliban really have among the people. If they had the support that you claim they would not have people pointing out their positions to the ISAF in Marja. You would not have hundreds of tribal elders joining with the ISAF throughout Afghanistan.
> 
> You need to stop drinking the extremist Kool-Aid and learn to think for yourself. And exercise some common sense. You should start listening to some of your fellow Pakistani forum members. Who actually live in Pakistan and see first hand what the Taliban are like.



My comment are based on my understanding after observing 9 year war results .

I will wellcome your critisim if you prove my comments wrong .

2010 will be year of strategic victory of Talaban , which will be long lasting then ISAF victory in 2001.

Also remember Dutch and Canadian soldiers will not be available for your support after 2010.


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## fatman17

^Thomas - nice avtar


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## waraich66

*We have spent the last year getting the inputs right in Afghanistan... Now we are starting to see the first of the output 

Gen David Petraeus*

BBC News - Petraeus: Marjah start of long campaign

You will get the results soon


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## waraich66

*You dont really need to chase and kill the Taliban, said General Stanley McChrystal, the former special forces chief and newly appointed US commander of all allied troops in Afghanistan. What you need to do is take away the one thing they absolutely have to have  and thats access and the support of the people. This, in a nutshell, is the basis of the coalition's new strategy in Afghanistan, and the driving force behind the new tactical shift in Helmand, which sofar attempted to route the Taliban from their strongholds in the area but, lacking stamina, eroded into prolonged bloody skirmishes that did not leave much impression on the Taliban and lost the remaining faith the population had in the foreign forces. The new operation is aiming to change that trend.*

Changing Strategy for Afghanistan

You already lost your credibility among civilians during last nine years , how can you construct building on wrong foundation.


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## Always Neutral

Fundamentalist said:


> My comment are based on my understanding after observing 9 year war results .
> 
> I will wellcome your critisim if you prove my comments wrong .
> 
> 2010 will be year of strategic victory of Talaban , which will be long lasting then ISAF victory in 2001.
> 
> Also remember Dutch and Canadian soldiers will not be available for your support after 2010.



I must say after 9 years of watching the war this is the standard of your knowledge than you must have started watching it from the age of 10.

The ISAF is in Helmand while your Mullah Brother is in jail and the other Taliban scums in their caves and the Afghani people warm in their homes.

Hardly a victory for Taliban. The Afghan flag flies happily in Helmand.

Regards


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## waraich66

Always Neutral said:


> I must say after 9 years of watching the war this is the standard of your knowledge than you must have started watching it from the age of 10.
> 
> The ISAF is in Helmand while your Mullah Brother is in jail and the other Taliban scums in their caves and the Afghani people warm in their homes.
> 
> Hardly a victory for Taliban. The Afghan flag flies happily in Helmand.
> 
> Regards



Being indian why are you worried


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## Always Neutral

Fundamentalist said:


> Being indian why are you worried



Being a Pakistani you should be more bothered of the TTP than about the Afghani people and why the scums like Mullah Omar should be allowed to take them back to the 15 th Century.


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## hembo

*NATO Afghanistan air-strike kills 27 civilians*
Mon, Feb 22 10:29 PM


A medical helicopter lands during a heavy gun battle in Helmand province February 21, 2010....

NATO airstrike in Afghanistan mistakenly killed 27 civilians, the government said on Monday, hurting a campaign to win over the local population and defeat Taliban insurgents.

The Afghan cabinet condemned the killings as "unjustifiable" after an aircraft fired on civilians, mistaking them for insurgents, in the south near the border of Uruzgan and Dai Kondi provinces.

Civilian casualties have caused friction between the government and foreign forces, who have launched two big offensives in the past eight months in a bid to turn the tide of a growing Taliban-led insurgency.

Initially the Afghan cabinet reported 33 deaths, but later clarified that 27 had died. Sunday's toll was still the highest number of civilian deaths in months.

The incident was not part of Operation Mushtarak, a major NATO-led campaign to clear Taliban militants out of neighbouring Helmand province in the south.

Nonetheless, it could still undermine government and NATO efforts to win over civilians under a plan to wrest control of Taliban bastions and hand them over to state authorities before the start of a gradual U.S. troop withdrawal in 2011.

"Initial reports indicate that NATO fired Sunday on a convoy of three vehicles ... killing at least 27 civilians, including four women and one child, and injuring 12 others," the Afghan cabinet said in a statement.

The NATO-led International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) said in a statement civilians had been killed as they approached a joint NATO-Afghan unit, but did not say how many.

An investigation has begun, it said.

"We are extremely saddened by the tragic loss of innocent lives," U.S. General Stanley McChrystal, commander of NATO forces in Afghanistan, said in the ISAF statement.

"I have made it clear to our forces that we are here to protect the Afghan people and inadvertently killing or injuring civilians undermines their trust and confidence in our mission."

McChrystal's counter-insurgency strategy emphasises seizing population centres and avoiding combat in built-up areas whenever possible to avert civilian deaths. The number of civilians killed by NATO troops has declined since he took command in mid-2009.

Brad Adams, Asia Director for Human Rights Watch, praised McChrystal's efforts to reduce civilian casualties and said they have made a difference, but he said the coalition continues to act on poor intelligence.

"This has gone on for years. They urgently need to solve this problem to avoid mistakes that could undermine this policy," he said.

U.S. Marines say they have been extra careful not to put civilians at risk in their assault in Marjah in Helmand, Afghanistan's most violent province. This has at times prevented them from acting more decisively and slowed them down.

The International Committee of the Red Cross said roads infested with hidden bombs make it difficult to evacuate the sick and wounded to hospitals in the provincial capital Lashkar Gah.

"The ICRC calls on the armed opposition, the Afghan National Army and police and international military forces to ensure that the conduct of military operations does not unduly affect access to medical care," it said in a statement.

At least 12 people were killed in a poorly targeted rocket strike the day after Operation Mushtarak started this month. A total of 21 civilians have died in the NATO offensive, ISAF said.

While NATO forces appear to have made significant progress in the offensive -- a test of U.S. President Barack Obama's troop surge strategy -- their push to clear out militants can backfire.

"People still complain about how the house searches are being conducted. The joint forces should not view every person here with suspicion of being a Taliban or a relative of one," said Abdur Rahman Saber, head of a local council established before the Marjah offensive to monitor the plight of civilians.

"When the government and its foreign allies want the people on their side, they should respect every resident here. People should not feel any sense of insecurity from Afghan or foreign troops."

NATO and Afghan forces still are still under pressure to push out remaining Taliban fighters, and prevent others from coming back to Marjah, a poppy cultivation centre which Western countries say funds the insurgency.

(Additional reporting by Sayed Sallahuddin and Hamid Shalizi Writing by Michael Georgy; Editing by Bryson Hull)


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## waraich66

Always Neutral said:


> Being a Pakistani you should be more bothered of the TTP than about the Afghani people and why the scums like Mullah Omar should be allowed to take them back to the 15 th Century.



I am first Muslim then Pakistani , the idealogy of Pakistan is more important because on this basis we got independence,TTP is terrorist fighting with Muslims Army but AT fighting for liberation of their home land , why you dont understand this simple reason.


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## ajpirzada

*How Afghans see Operation Moshtarak*
The western media may trumpet the latest joint military push, but in Afghanistan it is widely viewed as a conspiracy

Nushin Arbabzadah
guardian.co.uk, Tuesday 16 February 2010 14.30 GMT
Article history
Media coverage of the joint military operation by Afghan and Nato forces in southern Afghanistan has catapulted the previously obscure Marjah and Nade Ali districts to worldwide fame.

The operation's name uses the word moshtarak, which means "together" in Dari, and &#8211; as the first major operation conducted in Afghanistan since President Barack Obama came to power &#8211; the prominence it has been given in world news is deliberate.

But the international coverage is in sharp contrast to the way it is regarded on the ground in Afghanistan. There, Operation Moshtarak is viewed through the prism of ethnic paranoia, national self-doubt and conspiracy theories: three key factors which have prevented the country's media from representing the Marjah and Nade Ali campaign as a united Afghan effort against a common Taliban enemy.

Reading between the lines of editorials in Afghanistan's opposition press, one cannot help but sense that the opposition is not interested in the successful completion of the operation. After all, military success in Helmand province would amount to the Kabul government regaining the legitimacy that it has lost as a result of the fraud-ridden 2009 presidential election. The opposition has little interest in such victory, so media outlets critical of the government have published editorials that belittled the operation, casting doubt over the strategic importance of Marjah and Nade Ali, and highlighting the issue of civilian casualties there.

Operation Moshtarak was launched to symbolise a new spirit of co-operation and Afghan ownership of the war against the Taliban. But on the ground in Afghanistan, it has become the embodiment of Afghans' internal struggles with themselves. Ironically, moshtarak &#8211; a spirit of togetherness &#8211; is exactly what is missing in the local media coverage of the operation.

The Daily Mandagar, a paper which had previously been banned after allegations of blasphemy, put its criticism in a characteristically blunt manner. It posed the question: are Marjah and Nade Ali really such strategically important districts to merit this concentration of efforts? The paper added that the local population themselves were astounded by the significance given to their region and doubted that the deployment of 15,000 troops was necessary to force out the Taliban.

Perhaps anticipating such criticism, the pro-government paper Anis had a ready answer to this question. It said that even though Marjah and Nade Ali were of no obvious strategic importance, the operation there was of symbolic value as it offered a chance to test the Afghan army's skills against the Taliban. The paper added that the operation's outcome would define the future of the war.

While both government and opposition papers denied that Marjah and Nade Ali had been chosen for clear, military and strategic reasons, the Taliban themselves had no such doubts. Judging by an interview with the Taliban commander in charge of Marjah, the movement regards the operation as part of an international imperialist conspiracy which renders Marjah and Nade Ali of special military and strategic importance. The interview with Mullah Abdul Rezaq Akhund, the Taliban commander in Marjah, was conducted in Pashto and posted on Cheragh Daily website.

The interview shows that seen through the Taliban's conspiracy prism, Helmand's geographic location gives the province strategic importance. In the interview, Akhund listed four primary reasons which, according to the Taliban, explain why Helmand is of great geo-strategic importance to Nato. The Taliban commander alleged that the US and the UK intend to set up surveillance centres along the border to collect Iranian military and intelligence data. Akhund further alleged that since Helmand is also close to Gwadar, a Pakistani port which is of economic significance to China, controlling Helmand allows Washington to curb the influence of its main economic rival in the region.

He then went on to allege that the US and the UK were also interested in taking control of the drug production laboratories located in Helmand in a bid to profit from the international heroin business. The fourth reason, as alleged by Akhund, is Helmand's uranium resources. In the Taliban commander's own words: "According to eyewitnesses, British forces are bringing a large amount of equipment to the area and have started extracting uranium there and British transport planes land and take off from this area several times every day."

Hence, seen in the terms of the international conspiracy theory as expressed by Akhund, US rivalry with Iran and China, plus uranium and the heroin trade are the reasons why military operations are currently being carried out in Marjah and Nade Ali districts.

According to anecdotal evidence, Mullah Akhund's views reflect those of a majority in Afghanistan. The conspiracy theory comes in variations but common to all versions is a denial of the fact that the violence has local roots and that the problem is self-created and self-perpetuated. It is this denial that is moshtarak, or shared, by all parties, from the government to the opposition and the Taliban.

How Afghans see Operation Moshtarak | Nushin Arbabzadah | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk


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## fawwaxs

*Taliban fighters who were won over by Nato*

Operation Moshtarak, which means "together" in the Dari language, involves more than 15,000 Nato and Afghan troops.

The idea is to clear the area of insurgents and allow forces to work with local institutions to bolster reconstruction and provide support for the rule of law.

That includes trying to win over moderate members of the Taliban and draw them into the political process. 
BBC News - Taliban fighters who were won over by Nato


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## fawwaxs

*Pakistan's push for new role in Afghanistan *

Afghanistan's punishing war is entering a new phase and Pakistan has made it clear it can and must play a leading role.

The sudden significant capture of Mullah Abdul Ghani Baradar, second in charge in the Taliban hierarchy, comes at a crucial point.

Talk of negotiation is now taking centre stage, a strategy in parallel to a powerful military assault against Taliban strongholds in southern Afghanistan.

"There has been a change in Pakistan's attitude," said Pakistani author Ahmed Rashid, who has written extensively about the close links between Pakistan's military intelligence, the ISI, and Taliban leaders.

"Pakistan now wants to dominate any kind of dialogue that takes place."

*Frustration*
Mullah Baradar, reported to have been picked up by Pakistani and US intelligence agents in the southern Pakistani city of Karachi, may have become too independent.

Sources in Kabul say he and his envoys have been involved in secret talks with the Afghan president in Kabul, his representatives in southern Afghanistan and outside the country.

One senior Afghan official who, like others, is not commenting publicly for now, said: "This may be good for public opinion but, for us, it can have a negative impact.

"It was easier for us to talk to him."

A Western source involved in the process expressed frustration this channel was now being exposed and, for the moment, stopped.

More arrests have now been reported including two Taliban "shadow governors" who reported to Mullah Baradar.

Reports from Kandahar last month speculated that Mullah Baradar would soon be arrested because of growing tensions with Mullah Omar.

The two men have been close confidants. The Taliban leader had appointed him as one of his two main deputies after the movement was ousted from power in 2001.

Mullah Baradar rose to become the key military commander as Mullah Omar found it increasingly difficult to operate in the open.

"Pakistan has accomplished two objectives," remarked Lt Col Tony Shaffer, who served as an intelligence officer in Afghanistan in 2003, and is now at the Center for Advanced Defense Studies in Washington.

"They've shown us in the West they're willing to co-operate and they've taken out someone they didn't control."

Pakistan has always denied senior Taliban leaders are living on its soil, saying they go back and forth across the porous border with Afghanistan. 

*Key asset*
Unlike the Bush administration, Barack Obama's team has been urging Pakistan, privately and publicly, to take action against the Taliban leadership and their sanctuaries in the tribal areas, as well as in cities like Quetta and Karachi.

Since 2001 the Pakistan military has moved against al-Qaeda and more recently, Pakistani Taliban leaders. But it's long made it clear it won't move against the Afghan Taliban and other powerful Afghan commanders linked to the insurgency.

Islamabad has regarded its long-standing Taliban connections as a key asset in neighbouring Afghanistan.

Now that the Afghan government and its Nato allies have made reintegration of low-level Taliban fighters - and reconciliation with more senior commanders - a key priority, Pakistan wants to play a role in bringing the Taliban to the negotiating table.

Pakistan's army chief, Gen Ashfaq Kayani, has been indicating their readiness. 

*Sphere of influence*
In a rare press briefing in February, he made it clear "we have opened all doors" to co-operation with Nato and Afghan forces in Afghanistan.

But he also asserted "our strategic paradigm has to be realised". For Pakistan, this means a friendly Afghanistan that is part of its sphere of influence - and where India, still regarded as a threat, plays no major role.

Washington seems to accept Pakistan can be a broker.

US Special Representative for Afghanistan and Pakistan Richard Holbrooke, on a visit to Kabul, told BBC's Persian TV: "Pakistan's ISI can play a role in negotiations and I support that role.

"Pakistan has an influence in this area and has a legitimate security interest."

The former ISI head, retired Gen Hamid Gul, talked about this relationship with his trademark bluntness. Speaking to me in an interview on the BBC's Newshour programme, he said: "America is history, Karzai is history, the Taliban are the future."

Pakistan, he warned, "would be unwise to cut all contacts and goodwill with the future leaders of Afghanistan".

A growing role for Islamabad causes unease in Kabul. President Karzai and key members of his team have repeatedly criticised the role of the ISI in providing sanctuary to Taliban leaders. 

*'Exaggerating'*

The president has made it clear he wants any reconciliation to be an Afghan-led and controlled process.
Pakistani Foreign Secretary Salman Bashir (left) with US envoy to Afghanistan and Pakistan Richard Holbrooke
The US is hailing its relationship with Pakistan

There's been no official announcement from Kabul yet to Mullah Baradar's capture.

A few years ago, Kabul opened contacts with another senior Taliban leader, Mullah Mansoor Dadullah, who had also fallen out with Mullah Omar, only to have Pakistan capture him in early 2008. At the time, a senior Afghan intelligence official expressed anger and dismay.

Dutch journalist Bette Dam, author of a recent book on Hamid Karzai, has written of years of contacts between the president and Mullah Baradar, who are both from the Popalzai tribe.

Mullah Baradar is said to have come to the rescue of Hamid Karzai when he was threatened by Taliban fighters in the southern province of Uruzgan after the 9/11 attacks.

On her most recent visit to Uruzgan in December, Ms Dam said that she had been informed that Mullah Baradar made a visit to Kabul last year.

Afghans in the province - the birthplace of Mullah Baradar - also spoke of "how powerful and increasingly independent he had become in the Taliban movement, establishing his own committees and charities, and operating though his own tribal networks".

The question now is what impact will his arrest have on any future negotiations with the Taliban and on Pakistan's role in this process.

*Biggest blow*
Islamabad is being hailed in Washington for its co-operation with the US.

For the Americans, this success comes only weeks after the CIA suffered its biggest blow in decades. It lost seven operatives when a double agent detonated a suicide vest at their base in the eastern province of Khost.

But many key details of this latest operation are still unclear. Reports are now emerging that Mullah Baradar may have been detained earlier than the dates cited in the original story in the New York Times.

It's also still not clear how much involvement US intelligence had in the raid and how much access they have to this valuable source, who has an enormous store of knowledge about the movement, including their contacts with the ISI.

One Western source in Kabul said that the Americans were exaggerating the level of co-operation.

US intelligence officer Col Shaffer argues that what happens next is of key importance.

"We should watch very closely what happens," he remarked. 

BBC News - Pakistan's push for new role in Afghanistan


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## waraich66

Operation Moshtarak, and ANA problems/ANP Update 
BruceR. at Flit discusses them, pointing out many are of ISAF's own making:

1) Marja: not going too well

The ISAF move into Marja, in Helmand province, which Canadian OMLT personnel are participating in, seems to be turning into more of the usual Afghan story. WashPost: 
The civilian team's most important immediate task will be to assist the newly appointed district governor, Haji Zahir, who recently returned to Afghanistan after 15 years in Germany. Zahir plans to make his first trip to Marja in the coming days...

2) Marja: not going too well, 2: the ANA performance

The ANA in Helmand is not acquitting itself well in the eyes or Marines or accompanying reporters: 
Statements from Kabul have said the Afghan military is planning the missions and leading both the fight and the effort to engage with Afghan civilians caught between the Taliban and the newly arrived troops.

But that assertion conflicts with what is visible in the field...

...They have become our door-kickers. And for that they don't need their own leaders: in fact, stronger leadership on their part would now be an even greater inconvenience to us than the lack of it. Note how the story is about a platoon of Iraqis joins a company of Marines and then is split up among its squads, not treated in any way as an extra, discrete platoon. So what exactly is that Captain commanding it, Amanullah, leading? Yes, he may be an unimpressive leader, but was he unimpressive before he was deprived of any real authority, or because of it? And how exactly now will he reclaim it in the eyes of his men as well as his own mind, short of passively resisting Marine authority until they are rotated somewhere else?..

Chivers and the Times portray this as an ANA failing: "officers and soldiers follow behind the Americans and do what they are told." But that is what we demanded they do. Why is it not an ISAF failing that they could not give this operation, or a significant part of it, to an Afghan battalion or higher level organization with imbedded enablers, working in their own box? Would they have done things differently? Certainly. Badly? Probably...
Update: Excerpts from a story by an American ANP trainer on the still serious problems on that front:

Afghan mess bigger than we thought
...
At the operational level, where I worked with the Afghan National Police (ANP) for 15 months, things look a lot worse.

Operationally, the effort is broken. Assets are misdirected, poorly managed and misused. Graft and corruption in the Afghan forces are endemic, and coalition forces unwittingly enable that corruption. Let's break that into two parts:

Misdirected, mismanaged and misused:

There are several related facets to this issue. Aid agencies, nongovernmental agencies and coalition state and defense departments have all poured money and materiel into the country in poorly coordinated efforts. The Afghan National Army (ANA) has received orders of magnitude more money than the ANP. In any counterinsurgency effort, the police play a vital role in maintaining the rule of law at the local level, but the Afghan police force is pathetically underresourced and undermanned.

It is misemployed. At a meeting of regional police commanders, one commander complained about the use of his police to fight the Taliban. The police are neither trained nor armed adequately to fight the Taliban. He complained about orders to accomplish an army mission...

...length of tour for those mentoring ministry-level efforts is simply too short. Six to eight months is barely enough time to gain an understanding of system dynamics, let alone effect meaningful change. The attitude this engenders in the Afghans is "wait and see." They are reluctant to embrace recommendations from the current mentor because he will change in six months - so they push back out of wariness and fatigue...


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## Thomas

No matter how much you claim the sky is falling Fundamentalist. The end result will be a Taliban defeat in Marjah. And with the establishment of a major ISAF base there soon. The Taliban won't be returning to Govern. 

Whats more their defeat will be further proof they do not enjoy divine protection.


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## waraich66

Thomas said:


> No matter how much you claim the sky is falling Fundamentalist. The end result will be a Taliban defeat in Marjah. And with the establishment of a major ISAF base there soon. The Taliban won't be returning to Govern.
> 
> Whats more their defeat will be further proof they do not enjoy divine protection.



First deserve then desire , you dont have courage to accept your defeat in nine years of war.I am thinking who will be the next fool after ISAF defeat to send their forces in Afghanistan


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## fatman17

*Swat: a model for US generals in Afghanistan *

** Frequent visits by US generals highlight success of military operation 
* Americans looking to replicate &#8216;Swat model&#8217; in Afghanistan *

By Iqbal Khattak 

PESHAWAR: From US National Security Adviser James Jones to Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman Admiral Mike Mullen, no senior American military dignitary&#8217;s visit to Pakistan is complete without a trip to the former Taliban stronghold of Swat. 

Less than 24 hours after a suicide attack ripped through Mingora, US Gen David Petraeus&#8217; visit to Swat on Tuesday is a testament to the importance Washington attaches to the &#8220;successful Swat model&#8221; of an operation against the Taliban. 

&#8220;These visits help the Americans understand how the Taliban were defeated and how the same model will work in Afghanistan,&#8221; said former military officer Brig (r) Mehmood Shah of American generals&#8217; frequent trips to Swat after the district was &#8220;liberated&#8221; from the clutches of the Taliban last year. 

Security experts say it is absolutely beyond doubt that the situation in Swat has taken a &#8220;180-degree turn&#8221; compared to the pre-May 2009 period. 

While simple military briefings can be arranged at the General Headquarters for American generals and other high-ranking dignitaries, it is believed physical presence in the former Taliban stronghold gives the visiting dignitaries a true feeling of victory over the Taliban in testing terrain like Swat. 

So what is the Swat model? Experts say the model gave the military a new strategic advantage in flushing out armed groups holding densely populated urban areas without causing civilian casualties and as little damage as possible to public and private properties. 

While more than two million civilians were displaced amid the Swat operation, they returned home three months later, with the Taliban forced out of urban and rural areas. 

The successful execution of the offensive encouraged the Americans to replicate the Swat model in Afghanistan&#8217;s Helmand province, where a 15,000 strong force of US and Afghan troops launched &#8216;Operation Moshtarak&#8217; on February 9 &#8211; the first coordinated and serious anti-militant operation in Afghanistan since the Taliban regime there was overthrown in 2001. 

&#8220;They are good for us as well, as it gives us opportunities to sell our model worldwide. The Americans may also feel good when they are standing in an area previously held by militants ... it gives them the feeling that victory over the Taliban is possible,&#8221; said a military officer.

The officer said the Americans &#8220;now try to understand what army chief Gen Ashfaq Kayani is saying can be tried in Afghanistan&#8221;. He said any acknowledgement by Washington of Pakistan&#8217;s &#8220;legitimate national interests&#8221; in Afghanistan could bring the two armies closer. 

&#8220;Just listening [to news] or reading about the Swat model may not help you understand the ground situation ... physical presence in the area is essential,&#8221; said the officer, who has 
years of experience in the war against militancy. 

Operation Rah-e-Nijat in South Waziristan is an extension of the Swat model, and results so far have been encouraging &#8211; with the &#8216;clear, hold and develop&#8217; strategy apparently working against the Taliban. 

The US also appears to be believing Gen Kayani, who says that successful execution of an operation in the Mehsud areas of South Waziristan would ultimately lead to a major assault on the group&#8217;s last strongholds in North Waziristan, before the elimination of militancy from Pakistani soil. 

Meanwhile, it is yet to be seen how successful &#8216;Operation Moshtarak&#8217; would be, to allow comparisons to be drawn and determine if simple replication of a model can lead to victory against insurgents.

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## Awesome

Thomas said:


> No matter how much you claim the sky is falling Fundamentalist. The end result will be a Taliban defeat in Marjah. And with the establishment of a major ISAF base there soon. The Taliban won't be returning to Govern.
> 
> Whats more their defeat will be further proof they do not enjoy divine protection.


One of the things is, Mushtarak would be a Nato victory militarily was a given. What wasn't a given were the three goals:

Clear, Hold and Rebuild.

Clear - Check

Hold? Judging from the scores of media reports out there, it all depends upon Nato's ability to win hearts and minds and according to these reports, thats not gone all too well:

http://www.inthenews.co.uk/news/world/south-asia/civilian-deaths-undermine-nato-s-battle-for-hearts-and-minds-$1360554.htm

Civilian deaths mounting in Marjah offensive / The Christian Science Monitor - CSMonitor.com

Another thing is, the Taliban MO has been to not engage in battle. Intel reports that they WILL regroup in Uruzgan were out even before Mushtarak happened and thats what's happened.... And the 2000 troops patrolling Uruzgan are leaving even after US pressure?

Its so messed up.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/25/opinion/25thur3.html

Not to mention, that unlike the US forces, the Dutch in Uruzgan had already won the hearts and minds as they focused upon integration with the people.

Nato announces next offensive - Kandahar.

Makes sense? AGAIN they are falling into the trap of over extending the war. The US generals need to have a good hard read at the article Fatman posted. The John Woo, guns blazing in both hands style isn't going to work against the Taliban.

Clearing Check. 

Holding?


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## Spring Onion

----


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## Awesome

The ISAF needs to put forward at least 100,000 troops to control Afghanistan for like 5-10 years and keep picking the Taliban off from each area they regroup to.

ORRR

Negotiate << Which equals defeat.


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## Thomas

Fundamentalist said:


> I am first Muslim then Pakistani , *the idealogy of Pakistan is more important because on this basis we got independence,TTP is terrorist fighting with Muslims Army but AT fighting for liberation of their home land , why you dont understand this simple reason.*



And what if the Ideology of Pakistan changes? Do you then change with it? Pakistan supported the Afghan Taliban originally for Geo political reasons. Not becuase they necessarily agreed with their extreme religious views. They knew from the beginning that it was a risky move that could come back to bite them. So if Pakistan at a later time decides it is not in their best interest any longer to support the Afghan Taliban. Do they not have the right to do that? Also geographical borders do not delineate Ideology. A Taliban is a Taliban no matter where they live. they all seek to spread their ideology, advance their base of power and kill anyone (mainly civilians) that stand in their way.


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## Ahmad

Asim Aquil said:


> One of the things is, Mushtarak would be a Nato victory militarily was a given. What wasn't a given were the three goals:
> 
> Clear, Hold and Rebuild.
> 
> Clear - Check
> 
> Hold? Judging from the scores of media reports out there, it all depends upon Nato's ability to win hearts and minds and according to these reports, thats not gone all too well:
> 
> http://www.inthenews.co.uk/news/world/south-asia/civilian-deaths-undermine-nato-s-battle-for-hearts-and-minds-$1360554.htm
> 
> Civilian deaths mounting in Marjah offensive / The Christian Science Monitor - CSMonitor.com
> 
> Another thing is, the Taliban MO has been to not engage in battle. Intel reports that they WILL regroup in Uruzgan were out even before Mushtarak happened and thats what's happened.... And the 2000 troops patrolling Uruzgan are leaving even after US pressure?
> 
> Its so messed up.
> 
> Editorial - The Dutch Retreat From Afghanistan - NYTimes.com
> 
> Not to mention, that unlike the US forces, the Dutch in Uruzgan had already won the hearts and minds as they focused upon integration with the people.
> 
> Nato announces next offensive - Kandahar.
> 
> Makes sense? AGAIN they are falling into the trap of over extending the war. The US generals need to have a good hard read at the article Fatman posted. The John Woo, guns blazing in both hands style isn't going to work against the Taliban.
> 
> Clearing Check.
> 
> Holding?



God save us from the evil of the taliban. It looks like that the Taliban in Afgahistan and Pakistan are applying the same tactics. in both of these countires it is the civilians who are the victims.


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## Awesome

Unity said:


> God save us from the evil of the taliban. It looks like that the Taliban in Afgahistan and Pakistan are applying the same tactics. in both of these countires it is the civilians who are the victims.


I don't think that the Taliban are unchallengeable. Pakistan has shown that it can be done with much much less resources at our disposal. Perhaps thats why it worked. 

The US should be moving to Uruzgan from Marjah, but its after some sort of a symbolic victory and hence is moving to Kandahar. Pakistan did nothing spectacular but chased them around for a while. cornering them in the middle of the Waziristans.

If we were following the US formula we would have opened a front one day in the South and the once in the North Waziristan. The war should be kept manageable, its not just a question of resources, its a question of focus as well.

It is all to show the smaller Taliban leaders that the Taliban can be attacked anywhere in Afghanistan and major show of force might scare them into negotiating mixed with the 500 million dollars of bribe money waiting for them.

It CAN work... But its a long shot.


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## fatman17

*US forces establish three new camps along Durand Line*

LAHORE: US security forces have built three new base camps along the Chaman border to monitor the Pakistan-Afghanistan transit trade, a private TV channel reported on Thursday.

According to sources, for the first time since the overthrow of Taliban US forces have taken control of the border area along the Chaman crossing to monitor the growing influence of Afghan and Pakistani Taliban in the area. Afghan sources said that US forces have established the base camps only five kilometres from Pakistani territory, where they are training recruits of the Afghan National Army. The US security forces have taken over an important checkpost at Dosti Baab, the main transit point with Pakistan from where fifteen to twenty thousand people travel and trade in each other's territory. *daily times monitor*


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## fatman17

*U.S. winds down Afghan assault but bigger one on way*

by Nasrat Shoib Nasrat Shoib &#8211; Fri Feb 26,2010

*KANDAHAR, Afghanistan (AFP) &#8211; US-led forces were Saturday winding down one of their biggest offensives yet in Afghanistan, but an official said it was a mere prelude to a larger assault in the works on the Taliban bastion of Kandahar.*

*The two-week Operation Mushtarak ("Together") had symbolically culminated Thursday when authorities hoisted the Afghan flag in Marjah, a poppy-growing southern area that had eluded government control for years.*

A US commander based in Kandahar said that most combat operations had subsided, although US, British and Afghan troops would still need several weeks to exert control over more remote villages in the area of Helmand province.

"There will be some sporadic fighting, I believe, some tough areas where there are still a few holdouts," Brigadier General Ben Hodges told the PBS Newshour on US public television.

"I think most of the significant combat operations, though, will have subsided," Hodges said.

"I think the majority of the enemy has either been killed or driven out or blended back into the population," he said.

The assault has been billed as the biggest military operation since the 2001 US-led invasion ended the Taliban regime, and is a major test of US President Barack Obama's troop surge aimed at turning the tide in Afghanistan.

In a vivid reminder of the Taliban's reach, suicide bombers on Friday targeted guesthouses in the heart of the capital Kabul, killing 16 people including Westerners and Indians.

The new US-led counter-insurgency strategy, designed to allow Western troops to be drawn down by mid-2011, dictates military preparation and assault, then establishing civilian security and services such as hospitals and schools.

More than 4,000 families left Marjah amid the assault, many of them taking refuge in the provincial capital Lashkar Gah as food, medicine and other supplies ran low, humanitarian workers said.

But NATO said bazaars were opening and that rebuilding work had already begun on roads and bridges destroyed in the fighting. It warned, however, of the danger of hidden bombs.

In Washington, a senior Obama administration official said that Operation Mushtarak was just a preview of a wider campaign in the works to exert control in Kandahar, Afghanistan's second largest city.

"I think the way to look at Marjah, it's the tactical prelude to larger, more comprehensive operations later this year in Kandahar city," the official said on condition of anonymity.

"It's a goal for 2010. If our overall goal for 2010 is to reverse the momentum and gain time and space for the Afghan capacity, we have to get to Kandahar this year," he said.

Kandahar is a cultural home to the Pashtun people and was the birthplace of the Taliban movement, which imposed an austere brand of Islam over the country from 1996 to 2001.

"It's their center of gravity," the administration official said of Kandahar, describing the US goal as being able to bring "comprehensive population security" to the city.

Alexander Vershbow, the assistant secretary of defense for international security affairs, said that the Marjah offensive was "crucially important" for the Obama strategy.

"The goal of the new strategy is to reverse the Taliban's momentum, secure the population, and redouble efforts to build the Afghan national security forces so that they can take over security responsibility as conditions permit," he told reporters. 

The anonymous administration official on Friday pointed to successes in a key part of the strategy -- Pakistan. 

*"In the last nine months we've seen a significant strategic shift in Pakistan," the official said. "That strategic shift is the decision by the Pakistani security forces to take the fight against the Pakistani Taliban."* 

Pakistan has launched offensives in its lawless tribal belt bordering Afghanistan, where much of the Taliban and Al-Qaeda leadership is believed to be based. 

US officials have long suspected that elements in Pakistan's powerful spy agency have abetted extremists.


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## fatman17

*NATO, Pakistan sharing tactical plans: US official*

*WASHINGTON: A senior US official on Friday said that NATO commanders in Afghanistan for the first time have begun traveling to Pakistan to share plans for military operations.* 

The apparent aim is to make sure that terrorists do not slip back and forth over the largely unmarked, mountainous border to escape coalition forces or the Pakistan Army. According to the official the sharing of tactical information represented a new level of cooperation for the military forces battling the Taliban, al Qaeda and other militants. *ap*

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## fawwaxs

*Hard part in Marjah has only just begun *

KABUL: The hardest fighting is over, but the battle for Marjah is just beginning.

The outcome of last month's military campaign was never in doubt. With 15,000 combined Nato and Afghan troops pouring in to oust an estimated 400-1,000 insurgents, it was simply a question of how long it would take to clear the southern Afghan city that belonged to the Taliban for years.

Now, the fight for Marjah focuses on keeping the population safe and &#8212; perhaps harder &#8212; setting up the first clean and effective civilian administration there in decades.

The war in Afghanistan is not just about seizing territory. Western forces, in enough numbers and backed by enough firepower, can do that almost anywhere against scattered insurgent squads with inferior weaponry, however determined the Taliban are, however inventive and deadly their booby traps and ambushes.

In the long term, the war is more about perceptions of authority and commitment than casualty tolls and objectives cleared, more about the Afghan civilians and what they believe and fear.

Nato saw Marjah &#8212; a Taliban logistics centre and drug-smuggling hub and the largest southern city under Taliban rule &#8212; as a key prize in Helmand, the southern Afghan province they've struggled to reclaim from the insurgents.

But even more than its strategic worth is Marjah's value as a symbol. The operation is intended to showcase how Nato plans to win the war &#8212; by putting civilians first. Successfully grafting in a workable government could provide a model for allied advances into more parts of the south, where the Taliban still control large swaths of the countryside.

In Marjah, the challenge was never the "clearing phase," as military commanders call the military offensive. It's the "holding phase" that follows: getting functional Afghan forces to control the area for good.

In fact, Marjah already has been "cleared" at least three times: first shortly after the 2001 invasion that ousted the Taliban's hard-line regime, again in 2007 and, most recently, in March of last year.

In 2002, this AP reporter witnessed similar scenes to today: government agents with rifles and stacks of American dollars trying to establish control.

"We're trying to walk in step with the international community," a deputy police chief said at the time.

But the Western-backed government did not sustain its efforts. The difference this time, according to the plan, is that at least 2,000 Marines and half as many Afghan forces are slated to stay and keep the insurgents from returning.

Much will depend on whether the Afghan government, plagued by corruption, can put a convincing Afghan face on what happens in Marjah; on whether cash will come to fix roads, bridges and houses, to build schools and clinics; on whether farmers will hew to a planned seed program for legitimate crops instead of poppy; and whether Nato troops will stay long enough to see through change and stabilization.

"We need time. We need to build the trust of the people because the people are scared," Ministry of Defence spokesman Mohammad Zahir Azimi said Thursday in Kabul.

Neither the Taliban nor the Nato-led International Security Assistance Force, or ISAF, can prevail without the backing, willing or forced, of Afghanistan's civilian population.

Both sides know this, and so they fight a parallel conflict, without bombs and bullets. Like campaigners in a heated electoral contest, they make promises and proclamations, and trash-talk their adversary's claims.

Retreating insurgents, endured or tolerated rather than loved by many Afghans in areas under their control, told Marjah's villagers that Americans would rape and plunder. That didn't happen.

Civilians, in fact, led American forces to 70 per cent of concealed insurgent bombs that have been discovered in an area near Marjah where the US Army 5th Stryker Brigade operated, said Capt. Nolan Rinehart, a US Army intelligence officer. That shows some degree of cooperation, even though many villagers are wary.

"They're very hesitant because we're new; we're foreign," Rinehart said. "It's hard to maintain a good perception (of international forces) if we keep jumping around from place to place because the Taliban will move right back in when we leave."

US Marines are settling in for a while in Marjah, but the civilians will be watching closely and judging harshly. The Western-backed Afghan government has a public platform there for the first time in a long time; the insurgents' pitch comes from the underground, or proxies.

A meeting last week between village leaders near Marjah and a district official was a case in point. The official, Asadullah, spoke softly about how the government can only provide services with public support; how Western troops pay compensation for damage to property, unlike Russian invaders during the Cold War in the 1980s; and how the Taliban creed of holy war was defunct.

Then a man leaped to his feet and denounced US troops for disrupting lives.

American soldiers said the speech was Taliban "IO," a reference to Information Operations, a military term for propaganda and other efforts to influence people. They later pulled the man aside and used a hand-held biometrics device to store his retina image and other data.

There will be distractions in Marjah. Big military operations will get under way elsewhere. Attacks in Marjah won't stop, even though most of the Taliban who once ruled there are either dead or injured, lying low or relocating to more friendly turf in the south.

"This is a 12 to 18-month campaign we are embarking on. It's not going to be easy," Army Gen. David Petraeus, commander of American operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, said Tuesday. He asserted that after more than eight years of fighting in Afghanistan, the US is finally getting enough troops, diplomats and organizational structure to be able to keep extremist groups from taking over again there. President Barack Obama sent an additional 30,000 troops to Afghanistan earlier this year.

Of course, Afghan forces must provide security long after Western troops are gone, and whether they are up to the task is a question. Some Afghan soldiers fought aggressively in the Marjah campaign, and some were unreliable.

American restraint on the battlefield almost certainly reduced casualties among the civilian population, but soldiers sometimes struggled to connect with villagers. In one awkward exchange, a soldier from a military intelligence battalion told a villager that he wanted to build a hospital closer to his home. A soldier next to him interrupted before the Pashto-speaking interpreter could translate.

"Don't make any promises," he said quietly. The translator remained silent, and the conversation ended there.
DAWN.COM | World | Hard part in Marjah has only just begun


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## fawwaxs

Two more US-led troops have been killed in separate incidents in volatile southern Afghanistan amid the climbing casualty counts among foreign troops.

US-led International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) said in a statement that one of its soldiers died in a Thursday bomb strike in an area where Operation Moshtarak is continuing.

According to the ISAF statement, the other soldier was killed in a vehicle accident.

With the latest incidents, the death toll this year for foreign soldiers stationed in Afghanistan has hit 111.

Operation Moshtarak was launched in Marjah on February 13, 2010, with the aim of eradicating Taliban militants there.


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## fawwaxs




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## fawwaxs

*After Marja, &#8216;Kandahar Will be Next, Mullen*

CORONADO, Calif., , March 4, 2010 &#8211; The nation&#8217;s top military officer today said the focus of American troops and their allies in southern Afghanistan would shift to Kandahar following an ongoing offensive in the former Taliban stronghold of Marja.

The comment by Navy Adm. Mike Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, marks the first time the senior-most military leader confirmed what many believed would be the next phase in a series of operations that have been characterized thus far as an early test of the new U.S. strategy in Afghanistan.

&#8220;I think General McChrystal&#8217;s been pretty clear that the focus will turn to Kandahar,&#8221; he told reporters at the Naval Air Station North Island here, referring to Army Gen. Stanley A. McChrystal, the top U.S. commander in Afghanistan. Mullen added: &#8220;His main effort is really in the south, and Kandahar will be next.&#8221;

The chairman noted that operations are ongoing in central Helmand Province&#8217;s Marja section, where military officials this week said the mission had shifted from clearing out the enemy to holding the gains the operation has brought about.

&#8220;We&#8217;re not through Marja,&#8221; Mullen said. &#8220;It&#8217;s been a very tough operation, (and) will continue to be.&#8221;

For months before the operation in Marja, U.S. and NATO military officials noted the strategic importance of the southern Afghanistan region and the goal to clear the area of Taliban fighters. The rationale for such a declaration of intent before the Marja offensive was to allow low-level Taliban fighters the chance to flee, and to warn civilians of the impending attack, officials said.

But what at first appeared to be a rare glimpse at the military&#8217;s playbook may actually signal an intention on the part of defense officials to disclose operations in southern Afghanistan before they come to fruition. Gen. David Petraeus, the commander of U.S. Central Command, called Marja the &#8220;initial salvo&#8221; in a campaign that could last 12 to 18 months.

Marine Corps Lt. Gen. John M. Paxton Jr., director of operations for the Joint Staff, told lawmakers on Capitol Hill last month of the military&#8217;s intent to focus on Kandahar following the first phase of operations.

Asked by senators why the campaign began in Helmand instead of Kandahar, the birthplace of the Taliban, Paxton replied that McChrystal concluded in his assessment in September that Helmand was at the heart of the coalition&#8217;s four-point mission to protect the Afghan people, enable Afghan security forces, neutralize the insurgency and allow for governance.

&#8220;General McChrystal&#8217;s plan was for Kandahar to be a place we would go, but central Helmand is where the insurgency had the most-safe haven,&#8221; Paxton said during the Feb. 22 hearing before Senate Armed Services Committee. &#8220;I think you&#8217;ll see Kandahar will closely follow, but central Helmand had to come first.&#8221;

As the military operations of the roughly 15,000 NATO and Afghan forces that have been engaged in Operation Moshtarak since Feb. 13 begin to wind down, the focus in Marja has shifted from what the military calls the &#8216;clear&#8217; phase to the &#8216;hold&#8217; phase.

Marja has been characterized as representing the first test of President Barack Obama&#8217;s strategy to add 30,000 more troops in the fight against Afghanistan-based insurgents. As the initial phase of operations comes to a close, Deputy Defense Secretart William Lynn said this week that Marja has emerged as an area where hope is returning.

&#8220;Because of our new strategy, and President Obama's deployment of additional troops,&#8221; Lynn told the American Legion in Washington, &#8220;Marja is one of many cities in Afghanistan that has begun to have hope.&#8221; 

Defense.gov News Article: After Marja, ?Kandahar Will be Next,? Mullen Says


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## fawwaxs

*US commander says security bolstered in Kandahar*

KABUL  Security and military intelligence operations are being reinforced around Kandahar, the largest city in southern Afghanistan and site of the next phase of the allied military offensive against the Taliban, the American commander for the country said.

Afghan, U.S. and NATO forces are planning a major operation later this year in Kandahar province, which is next to Helmand province where thousands of troops just seized the district of Marjah from insurgents. The southern push is part of a new counterinsurgency strategy and follows President Barack Obama's decision to send 30,000 new American troops to Afghanistan to reverse insurgent gains.

"Instead of putting a date certain on which there would be a climactic military operation, I tell you that the process has already begun," the top commander in Afghanistan, U.S. Gen. Stanley McChrystal, said about Kandahar, the Taliban's spiritual birthplace.

"It's a complex process that's going to involve a number of military things to increase security, along with police, but it will also involve a lot of political activities as well," he said.

Force levels already are being increased in some districts, including Arghandab, northwest of the city, and Panjwayi to the southwest, McChrystal said Wednesday in a video conference with reporters at the Pentagon. He said Defense Secretary Robert Gates had significantly increased the intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance support to the NATO troops.

"If you control the environs around Kandahar, you go a long way to controlling Kandahar," he said. "Unlike a Marjah operation, where there was a D-day ... it is more likely that this will be a series of activities that target different parts of it to increase that security."

Former British ambassador to Afghanistan Mark Sedwill, who is NATO's current senior civilian representative, said work also was being done in the run-up to the offensive to resolve political tensions and reinforce government institutions.

McChrystal said the work with political leaders will be supported by security operations  some in partnership with the Afghan National Police.

Earlier this week, the Afghan government said it would provide more than 1,000 police reinforcements for Kandahar province in response to Taliban attacks that killed dozens of people last weekend. Kandahar Gov. Tooryalai Wesa asked for more police after a series of bombings killed at least 35 people in Kandahar city. The Taliban called the attacks a "warning" that they are ready for the war's next phase.

Training Afghan national security forces is a priority for NATO so that Afghans can eventually take over security in their own nation.

In Kabul, Afghan President Hamid Karzai spoke Thursday at a graduation ceremony for 212 new military officers at the National Military Academy in Afghanistan. The academy eventually will commission 600 new lieutenants a year.

He told the graduates the nation is counting on them to defend the next generations of Afghans eager to see peace and stability after three decades of conflict. The army must be "strong like a mountain" and impervious to foreign forces, he said.

In the past 12 months, 1,410 Afghan police officers have been killed and 2,388 wounded while responding to 4,171 enemy attacks, the Interior Ministry reported Thursday. Of the total enemy engagements, 225 involved suicide attacks; 1,824 were linked to roadside mine explosions. The ministry said police found and detonated an additional 1,868 roadside bombs.

Army Lt. Gen. Michael Oates, director of the military's Joint Improvised Explosive Devices Defeat Organization, told the House Armed Services Committee this week that Afghanistan has experienced a near doubling of IED events in the past year, reflecting a resurgent Taliban.

The Associated Press: US commander says security bolstered in Kandahar


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## fawwaxs

*Karzai faces anger in Marjah*


HELMAND PROVINCE - Afghan President Hamid Karzai faced an angry reception from people in the southern town of Marjah following a major military assault against the Taliban.

During the unannounced visit on March 7, 10 days after the Afghan flag was raised over this former insurgent stronghold in Helmand province, Karzai said the expulsion of the Taliban meant full-scale reconstruction and development could get underway.

"Marjah will not be recaptured by the opposition," Karzai assured a meeting of tribal elders, officials and ordinary people in the



center of Marjah, a ramshackle string of villages and markets known principally for its booming opium trade.

"You will have a good life, full security, employment opportunities and good governance," he added, promising swift delivery of schools, clinics, roads and other infrastructure to the local population of around 50,000 people.

Beginning on February 13 and involving some 15,000 North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) and Afghan troops, Operation Moshtarak, which means "together" in Dari, expelled Taliban forces from the area after only limited resistance. Now Afghan and international authorities are under pressure to clear the surrounding farmland of hundreds of insurgent mines and fulfill development pledges.

Used to hearing generous messages from the Kabul leadership in recent years, local people gathered in Marjah were skeptical of Karzai's promises, and also lambasted the performance of his appointees in the region.

"The people you have sent here have been cruel to us," said one elderly man who rose from the crowd, visibly shaking with anger as he addressed the president. "We do not want such individuals," said the man, who said officials had been involved in abductions and extortion of money from local farmers.

His comments drew applause from the crowd, and after nodding in agreement, Karzai berated one official who was named, saying, "Shame on you!"

People who lost family members in the fighting also challenged the president, who was accompanied on the visit by the commander of NATO forces in Afghanistan, United States army General Stanley McChrystal.

"We are fed up with this life of ours," said a man called Harun, whose sister-in-law was killed and two brothers wounded by a shell burst during the battles. "If you do not help us in our predicament, don't provide us with employment opportunities in our area and don't support us, then will you ever help our orphans?"

The number of civilian casualties in the operation remains disputed. According to Helmand governor Gulab Mangal, 15 people died, while local people put the figure at 40. In the worst incident confirmed by NATO, 12 civilians died when two American rockets struck a house.

Led by United States Marines, the operation is considered the first big test of President Barack Obama's new "surge" strategy for Afghanistan. An extra 30,000 US troops are being deployed in an effort to break the Taliban's grip on areas like Marjah.

While hundreds of Afghan police sent to help keep the peace remain widely distrusted, Karzai urged Marjah's population to actively support the national security forces.

"If you want good security and governance, I ask the people and tribal elders to enroll your sons in the government forces so they will be trained and be able to serve and protect their country," said Karzai, who took the day's criticism in his stride.

"Well they are our people and we exchanged views, I heard them and they heard me, they had some very legitimate complaints," he said after the meeting. "They feel abandoned, which in many cases is true, and this sense of abandonment has to go away."

Some local people praised the president for visiting such a remote area and listening to their grievances and demands.

"No such senior official had ever visited Marjah before," resident Sediqollah said. "Moreover, there is no more fighting here now and the Taliban no longer come to my house every day and night and demand food. Karzai's speech shows that life in Marjah is going to improve."

But others who fled to the provincial capital Lashkar Gah ahead of the operation said the situation was still too volatile to return to their homes.

"I cannot go to Marjah because the foreigners arbitrarily search our houses there and disrespect us, which is outrageous," said a local man named Ostad. "It is better not to go there anymore."

To underscore the fragile security situation, insurgents fired several rockets at Marjah during Karzai's speech.

While a Taliban spokesman said in a text message sent to the Institute for War and Peace Reporting that several Afghan security officers died in the salvo, local people said nobody was injured.

"A rocket came but landed far from the meeting area and did not explode," Marjah resident Khan Wali said. 

Asia Times Online :: South Asia news, business and economy from India and Pakistan


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## Parashuram1

Fundamentalist said:


> US-NATO will be defeated Inshallah.
> 
> Only 2000 Mujahdeen in front of 30000 US-NATO+Afghan forces, with tanks,gunship support.
> 
> US-NATO could not be able to defeat Afghan Mujahdeen in eight years , how they could defeat them now?


Considering your support of terrorism I shall point out something with your propaganda numbers. The Taliban are able to stop ISAF simply because they want more and more civilian casualties to prove the ISAF efforts as "occupiers" which is not the case so as to earn sympathy from fanatics and terrorist-sympathizers.

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## warpig

Parashuram1 said:


> Considering your support of terrorism I shall point out something with your propaganda numbers. The Taliban are able to stop ISAF simply because they want more and more civilian casualties to prove the ISAF efforts as "occupiers" which is not the case so as to earn sympathy from fanatics and terrorist-sympathizers.



agreed !!!
if this so called freedom fighters of taliban (mujahed) 
are so good and high mighty why not leave the civilian,s and popolated areas?
why not fight in the deserts ? why they are suside bombing their own people?
what is the point of Zebh (killing a person with a knife by beheding him/her) the innecont?


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## pakdefender

This operation was done with great fanfare , it's was paraded as "proof" that the US/NATO trained Afghan forces are ready to operate on their own. It has turned out to be not the case

Afghan forces lose 4,000 a month to casualties, desertion - U.S. general| Reuters

United States invested to the tune of 65 billion USD to prop up The Afghan National Army. It now needs to step up to the challenge posed by afghan insurgents , call them taliban or whatever.


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