# Who lost the 1965 war - India or Pakistan?



## AsimJavaid

Asslam o Alaikum All,

we grew up hearing stories about bravery and courage of pakisatn army in 65 war .. and how we defeated india and captured many sq.km of there land. but as i came to know from Wikipedia and other sources that we actually lost the war .... is it true? what are facts about 65 war?

this topic may be discussed earlier here so point me to that direction or answer me in this thread. i am really confused about it, i have red all "Annaytullah" books about 65 and i believe we won the war, or at least were on equal terms with india when war was over ... were we really defeated or is it propaganda.

i would really appreciate you help here.

Asim Javaid
Islamabad

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## Patriot

We neither won nor lost--- pretty much a stalemate.The reason being that both Pakistanis and Indians had pretty much the same capability.Neither side had enough weapons to conquer each other.

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## MUHARIB

This thread is gonna be fun!!


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## untitled



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## Imran Khan

first of all there is huge threads abut 65 here were debate go till end .regarding WIKI you can edit it as you like and indian users daily edit it as they like .


http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-history/26861-1965-indo-pak-war.html

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-history/321-memories-1965-indo-pak-war.html

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-history/65721-myth-1965-victory-indian-view.html

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-history/33273-1965-pak-indo-war-detailss.html


if you read all of them it will be enough for you dear .

please close the thread as troll war is expected here.

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## IndianArmy

Soviet Union would be abetter answer... Those who know the truth can very well inculcate...


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## Imran Khan

MUHARIB said:


> This thread is gonna be fun!!


 
i hope its closed before fun start lolz

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## Nav

Pakistan neither lost nor win, pakistan just push back huge indian armour and infantry.
I suggest u go through the thread Imran bhai listed above. U will knw every thing.


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

what is by gone is by gone............ all informations are biased


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## aakash_2410

Patriot said:


> We neither won nor lost--- pretty much a stalemate.The reason being that both Pakistanis and Indians had pretty much the same capability.Neither side had enough weapons to conquer each other.


 
'India's chief of army staff urged negotiations on the ground that they were running out ammunition and their number of tanks had become seriously depleted. In fact, the army had used less than 15% of its ammunition compared to Pakistan, which had consumed closer to 80 percent and India had double the number of serviceable tanks.'

According to - David Van

'India won the war. It gained 1,840 square kilometers of Pakistani territory: 640 square kilometers in Azad Kashmir, Pakistan's portion of the state; 460 square kilometers of the Sailkot sector; 380 square kilometers far to the south of Sindh; and most critical, 360 square kilometers on the Lahore front. Pakistan took 540 square kilometers of Indian territory: 490 square kilometers in the Chhamb sector and 50 square kilometers around Khem Karan.'

According to - Library of Congress [USA]

'The war was militarily inconclusive; each side held prisoners and some territory belonging to the other. Losses were relatively heavy&#8212;on the Pakistani side, twenty aircraft, 200 tanks, and 3,800 troops. Pakistan's army had been able to withstand Indian pressure, but a continuation of the fighting would only have led to further losses and ultimate defeat for Pakistan. Most Pakistanis, schooled in the belief of their own martial prowess, refused to accept the possibility of their country's military defeat by "Hindu India" and were, instead, quick to blame their failure to attain their military aims on what they considered to be the ineptitude of Ayub Khan and his government.'

Accodring to - Devin Hagerty

'The invading Indian forces outfought their Pakistani counterparts and halted their attack on the outskirts of Lahore, Pakistan's second-largest city. By the time United Nations intervened on September 22, Pakistan had suffered a clear defeat.'

According to - Gertjan Djikin

'The superior Indian forces, however, won a decisive victory and the army could have even marched on into Pakistani territory had external pressure not forced both combatants to cease their war efforts.'



Hope that helped.

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## yousaf goebbels

we destroyed all the indian tanks in Chawinda...largest tank battle after ww2.....Indian Chief of militia wanted to have dinner in Lahore Gymkhana(his inferiority complex and slave mentality cause he wasnt offered good food in indian clubs) but couldnt cause we killed all those who came to border to enter Pakistan.
they attaked at night but defenders of Pakistan were awake.


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## Mo12

Most Pakistanis taught in Pakistan will obviously say Pakistan won every single war to be honest.

Truth of the matter is most neutral sources I read, is it was a stalemate with Pakistan backing off.

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## Last Hope

*NO!*

*We didn't lose 1965!! But that's nothing to be proud of! We didn't win it either!! If there is something to be proud of in 1965, its MM Alam and other fellow PAF personnel's miraculous work!! Only air wars were in our favor!!*

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## Patriot

aakash_2410 said:


> 'India's chief of army staff urged negotiations on the ground that they were running out ammunition and their number of tanks had become seriously depleted. In fact, the army had used less than 15% of its ammunition compared to Pakistan, which had consumed closer to 80 percent and India had double the number of serviceable tanks.'
> 
> According to - David Van
> 
> 'India won the war. It gained 1,840 square kilometers of Pakistani territory: 640 square kilometers in Azad Kashmir, Pakistan's portion of the state; 460 square kilometers of the Sailkot sector; 380 square kilometers far to the south of Sindh; and most critical, 360 square kilometers on the Lahore front. Pakistan took 540 square kilometers of Indian territory: 490 square kilometers in the Chhamb sector and 50 square kilometers around Khem Karan.'
> 
> According to - Library of Congress [USA]
> 
> 'The war was militarily inconclusive; each side held prisoners and some territory belonging to the other. Losses were relatively heavyon the Pakistani side, twenty aircraft, 200 tanks, and 3,800 troops. Pakistan's army had been able to withstand Indian pressure, but a continuation of the fighting would only have led to further losses and ultimate defeat for Pakistan. Most Pakistanis, schooled in the belief of their own martial prowess, refused to accept the possibility of their country's military defeat by "Hindu India" and were, instead, quick to blame their failure to attain their military aims on what they considered to be the ineptitude of Ayub Khan and his government.'
> 
> Accodring to - Devin Hagerty
> 
> 'The invading Indian forces outfought their Pakistani counterparts and halted their attack on the outskirts of Lahore, Pakistan's second-largest city. By the time United Nations intervened on September 22, Pakistan had suffered a clear defeat.'
> 
> According to - Gertjan Djikin
> 
> 'The superior Indian forces, however, won a decisive victory and the army could have even marched on into Pakistani territory had external pressure not forced both combatants to cease their war efforts.'
> 
> 
> 
> Hope that helped.


 

"By all accounts the courage displayed by the Pakistan Air Force
pilots is reminiscent of the bravery of the few young and dedicated
pilots who saved this country from Nazi invaders in the critical
Battle of Britain during the last war."

Patrick Seale,
The Observer, London,
September 12, 1965.


"Pakistan claims to have destroyed something like 1/3rd the Indian
Air Force, and foreign observers, who are in a position to know say
that Pakistani pilots have claimed even higher kills than this; but
the Pakistani Air Force are being scrupulously honest in evaluating
these claims. They are crediting Pakistan Air Force only those
killings that can be checked from other sources."

Roy Meloni,
American Broadcasting Corporation
September 15, 1965.


The London Daily Mirror reported: "There is a smell of death in the
burning Pakistan sun. For it was here that India's attacking forces
came to a dead stop.

"During the night they threw in every reinforcement they could find.
But wave after wave of attacks were repulsed by the Pakistanis"

"India", said the London Daily Times, "is being soundly beaten by a
nation which is outnumbered by four and a half to one in population
and three to one in size of armed forces."

In Times reporter Louis Karrar wrote: "Who can defeat a nation which
knows how to play hide and seek with death". 



For the PAF, the 1965 war was as climatic as the Israeli victory over the Arabs in 1967. A further similarity was that Indian air power had an approximately 5:1 numerical superiority at the start of the conflict. Unlike the Middle East conflict, the Pakistani air victory was achieved to a large degree by air-to-air combat rather than on ground. But it was as absolute as that attained by Israel.

USA - Aviation Week & Space Technology - December 1968 issue.

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## American Pakistani

>>>>>>>>>>>Pakistan.......India

Air War>>>>>> 2................0
Land War>>>>> 1................1
Sea War>>>>>> 2................1

Hope you got your answere.

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## killeragent

When you celebrate your army day after this day, its automatically assumed that next generations will assume and accept that they have won the war..


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## killeragent

American Pakistani said:


> Pakistan India
> 
> Air War>>>>>> 2 0
> Land War>>>>> 1 1
> Sea War>>>>>> 2 1
> 
> 
> Hope you got your answere.



Source please, scale for measure, list of ASSUMPTIONS.

All missing


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## Manas

Hear what your General and former Air chief say about 1965 war.

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## Mo12

According to a neutral and not Indians and Pakistanis here...



> Devin T. Hagerty wrote in his book "South Asia in world politics"[64] &#8211;
> The invading Indian forces outfought their Pakistani counterparts and halted their attack on the outskirts of Lahore, Pakistan's second-largest city. By the time United Nations intervened on September 22, Pakistan had suffered a clear defeat.
> 
> An excerpt from Stanley Wolpert's India,[66] summarizing the Indo-Pakistani War of 1965,
> In three weeks the second Indo-Pak War ended in what appeared to be a draw when the embargo placed by Washington on U.S. ammunition and replacements for both armies forced cessation of conflict before either side won a clear victory. India, however, was in a position to inflict grave damage to, if not capture, Pakistan's capital of the Punjab when the cease-fire was called, and controlled Kashmir's strategic Uri-Poonch bulge, much to Ayub's chagrin.
> 
> In his book titled The greater game: India's race with destiny and China, David Van Praagh wrote[67] &#8211;
> India won the war. It gained 1,840 square kilometers of Pakistani territory: 640 square kilometers in Azad Kashmir, Pakistan's portion of the state; 460 square kilometers of the Sailkot sector; 380 square kilometers far to the south of Sindh; and most critical, 360 square kilometers on the Lahore front. Pakistan took 540 square kilometers of Indian territory: 490 square kilometers in the Chhamb sector and 50 square kilometers around Khem Karan.



BBC also stated Pakistan won the war.

BBC reported that the war served game changer in Pakistani politics,[69] 
The defeat in the 1965 war led to the army's invincibility being challenged by an increasingly vocal opposition. This became a surge after his protege, Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, deserted him and established the Pakistan People's Party.


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## MUHARIB

Imran Khan said:


> i hope its closed before fun start lolz


 
lol sorry mate the fun already started..just sit back and enjoy the show or participate in the mud slinging!! lol


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## Mo12

Im still soo annoyed India accepted the ceasefire, when India was winning the war, why would anyone do that?

Can someone please explain?


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## S.M.R

For indians: india won

For Pakistanis: Pakistan won...

Thats it.

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## Mo12

S.M.R said:


> For indians: india won
> 
> For Pakistanis: Pakistan won...
> 
> Thats it.



Btw Neutral says India won.


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## yousaf goebbels

Mo12 said:


> Im still soo annoyed India accepted the ceasefire, when India was winning the war, why would anyone do that?
> 
> Can someone please explain?


 
cause we destroyed all your tanks son hundreds of them...we blowed them up..we killed your troops who wanted to cross into Pakistan via BRB canal and that inferiority complexed general who wanted to have dinner at lahore gymkhana club..


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## untitled

OK I have had enough ....... 

Lets have a rematch .........................







Here are the rules ..............

No nukes
No Fighter Jets
No guns
No bombs
No Mines

.....

*Only Paint ball guns


Lets have a good clean fight*

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## Sajjad Shaukat

What a nonsense question. 
True answer is " Indian lost "


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## t_for_talli

Sajjad Shaukat said:


> What a nonsense question.
> True answer is " Indian lost "


Pakistani sources:: PAK WON
Indian Sources :: India Won

So look for neutral sources......Every kind of media is biased u will be shown what ur govt wants u to know .... if ur curious do ur own research


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## Areesh

American Pakistani said:


> >>>>>>>>>>>Pakistan.......India
> 
> Air War>>>>>> 2................0
> Land War>>>>> 1................1
> Sea War>>>>>> 2................1
> 
> Hope you got your answere.


 
Why did you give 1 to IN?? What did they do in 65 war???


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## divya

yousaf goebbels said:


> cause we destroyed all your tanks son hundreds of them...we blowed them up..we killed your troops who wanted to cross into Pakistan via BRB canal and that inferiority complexed general who wanted to have dinner at lahore gymkhana club..


 
And Pakistan achieved its objectives and today kashmir is part of Pakistan and India has shrinked to the size of sri lanka by pakistan in 1971. Inferior indians are slaves of Pakistanis getting bombed daily.

Can we get back to this universe if your gravitons are done with parallel one

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## divya

Areesh said:


> Why did you 1 to IN?? What did they do in 65 war???


 
Have a sneak peak. or check a map where is kashmir?


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## Rafi

divya said:


> Have a sneak peak. or check a map where is kashmir?


 
A fair chunk of it is in Pakistan


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## Areesh

divya said:


> Have a sneak peak. or check a map where is kashmir?


 
Humm I think you out of patriotism didn't understand my post. I was asking for IN role in 65 war, wonder from where Kashmir came in.


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## laiqs@mi

Areesh said:


> Humm I think you out of patriotism didn't understand my post. I was asking for IN role in 65 war, wonder from where Kashmir came in.


 
IN k jahaj kashmir river say hotey howe samudr main gaye hon gay


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## Areesh

laiqs@mi said:


> IN k jahaj kashmir river say hotey howe samudr main gaye hon gay


 
Yup that's possible. IN frigates and destroyers took the path from Kashmir to Arabian sea.


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## divya

laiqs@mi said:


> IN k jahaj kashmir river say hotey howe samudr main gaye hon gay


 
na they crossed atlantic and hit pakistan from afghan side.


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## divya

Areesh said:


> Humm I think you out of patriotism didn't understand my post. I was asking for IN role in 65 war, wonder from where Kashmir came in.


 
nothing much of a role its just some dreamers who dreamt of kashmir ended up defending lahore because of them....


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## laiqs@mi

that is also possible Jabardast..... but only is possible in Bolywood movies..................


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## Areesh

divya said:


> nothing much of a role


 
OK. I got it.


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## divya

Areesh said:


> OK. I got it.


 
i know you always *get* half baked cookie... its ok


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## kOsMoD_PaKOz

Commander-in-Chief Pakistan Army, General Muhammad Musa Khan visiting the captured Khemkaran Railway Station, India


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## MUHARIB

kOsMoD_PaKOz said:


> Commander-in-Chief Pakistan Army, General Muhammad Musa Khan visiting the captured Khemkaran Railway Station, India


 
Lol we can also post of IA in Lahore district....btw if PAKistan won that war ..tell me what were their objectives??..and how many of it were achieved?? ..and wat PAkistan gained??


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## ashokdeiva

To the person who opend the thread, You should be a false flager, if you are from Pakistan you would have never asked this question. Because your History books teach that Pakistan won and if you ask with any Pakistani with this confussion, they would have reiterated the History books from your school to you.
For now lets say.
For Pakistanis --> Pakistan Won.
For Inidan --> India Won
and for the readers, Please close this Thread.


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## JonAsad

Pakistan won-


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## desiman

Sajjad Shaukat said:


> What a nonsense question.
> True answer is " Indian lost "


 
Ya thats what your books taught you for sure, Pakistan's objective was to capture Kashmir when launched operation Grand Slam. The myth that the Pakistani soldier is better than the Indian soldier was then given a nice spanking when India pushed back Pakistani forces right out and nothing was achieved by Pakistan other than humiliation as always. On a military front the war was a stalemate as positions were returned to pre 1965 standards but on a diplomatic and strategic front Pakistan* lost the war * as it wasnt able to achieve what it wanted to and in turn had to go to Russia for a peace treaty. 

Here watch this to see what your own Pakistani media says about 1965 - 






please stop believing what your text books tell you, I wonder what they say about 1971 as well ?

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## desiman

kOsMoD_PaKOz said:


> Commander-in-Chief Pakistan Army, General Muhammad Musa Khan visiting the captured Khemkaran Railway Station, India


 




*Lt. Col. Hari Singh of the India's 18th Cavalry posing outside a captured Pakistani police station (Barkee) in Lahore District.*

atleast we made it into Lahore

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## President Camacho

The war's neither won nor lost... because it's still on... on defence.pk


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## MUHARIB

This wont end well.


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## ashokdeiva

JonAsad said:


> Pakistan won-


 
you yourself are puking when you say Pakistan won


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## DkBose

JonAsad said:


> Pakistan won-


 
yes..inside pakisatn every body thinks so..outside opposite is reality


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

The Maldivians won 

Sad no one gives them any credit


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## AvidSpice

Why not toss a coin. Heads-- India Won, Tails-- India won!


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## MUHARIB

Avishekh said:


> Why not toss a coin. Heads-- India Won, Tails-- India won!


 
How about heads India won tails Pakistan lost.


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## kOsMoD_PaKOz

desiman said:


> *Lt. Col. Hari Singh of the India's 18th Cavalry posing outside a captured Pakistani police station (Barkee) in Lahore District.*
> 
> atleast we made it into Lahore


 




captured indian fort


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## SQ8

Pakistan LOST the war.. a war it started due to arrogant and miscalculating leadership.
The leaders of Pakistan has commited suicide for the whole nation if not for the brave souls who fought with belief and conviction.
Brave men from Punjab,Sindh,Balochistan,KP and Bangladesh who gave their lives for their homeland and defending it against a superior enemy whilst their leaders had cold feet.
Those leaders lost the war.. their honor (if they had any) and their respect.
The fighting men of Pakistan won the war against their leaders flawed designs.. they won against being led badly.. they won the hearts and minds of their nation. On the ground, In the air.. and at sea.

The Pakistani people won the war against their divided and racist leadership.. they showed they still had the capacity to be one.

Thread closed.

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