# Karakorum - 8 (K-8) | Jet Trainer Aircraft.



## AZADPAKISTAN2009

I just love the shape of the plane its just cool design

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## TOPGUN

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> I just love the shape of the plane its just cool design



It is a nice shape indeed but i would like to see it in our grey schme

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

The seating for the rear pilot is also good it gives same view to both pilots so they know what is happening in front of the plane

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## nightrider_saulat

i think t is among the best sub-sonic trainer available in the world today


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Recently the Venazuelans weaponzied the plane , what weapons can this plane carry did they had a special weapons firing installed for it ? 

Becasue we normally don't use it for any military operations


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Well is it more suitable for ground missions vs rouge elements ? 

Can a gun be mounded on this plane ? Machine gun etc or Guided ammunition ? 

I noticed egypt have like 200 of these trainers one of the biggest operators of this platform , its used by many country very successful platform 






It would be ideal to use smart bombs on this plane for ground operations if used for mission ?

How did the Venezuelans managed to put missiles on the plane can we put any of our missiles on this craft ?


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## Arik

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Recently the Venazuelans weaponzied the plane , what weapons can this plane carry did they had a special weapons firing installed for it ?
> 
> Becasue we normally don't use it for any military operations



All trainers can carry weapons to a certain extent,they don't have to be modified.


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## Gin ka Pakistan




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## umair86

Its a good trainer only needs a bit more engine thrust and 30 degree wing sweep to give it a feel of a lead in fighter trainer.


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## Mani2020

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> I noticed egypt have like 200 of these trainers one of the biggest operators of this platform , its used by many country very successful platform



not egypt china have 200 of them where as egypt have 120 of them

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## IceCold

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Recently the Venazuelans weaponzied the plane , what weapons can this plane carry did they had a special weapons firing installed for it ?
> 
> Becasue we normally don't use it for any military operations



K-8s can carry weapons on its 5 hard points. But those mostly include unguided rockets, unguided bombs, and also pl-5 and pl-7 for air to air role. Here is a link:

Hongdu JL-8 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## Wingman

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> I just love the shape of the plane its just cool design



Alpha Jets


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## fatman17

why this thread has been started again - one exists already!


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## TaimiKhan

fatman17 said:


> why this thread has been started again - one exists already!



Azad Bhai Sb ko aur kuch soojaa nahien, tu aik aur masterpiece  

He can't let webby's bandwidth be wasted.  has to utilize it.

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## Windjammer

Eik Aur Hi Sahi......

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## Wingman

Windjammer said:


> Eik Aur Hi Sahi......



Thats the coolest one


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## jamal18

I have always thought a single seat weaponized version is long overdue.

For CAS. Almost all other similiar trainers have one.


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## JK!

Italy and Brazil have operated the AMX aircraft as a ground attack aircraft and for close support missions.

Given the insurgency operations Pakistan is conducting it would be ]useful to have a K8 in a role like the AMX to have alongside Cobra helicopters providing support to the army on the ground.

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## S.U.R.B.

what's the current strength of K-8 in PAF?
Egypt got more than 100 of them.
Hongdu JL-8 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Plus she is manufacturing it on her own.
Why didn't we produced K-8 in Pakistan although we did participated in it's development didn't we?


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## wangrong

S.U.R.B. said:


> what's the current strength of K-8 in PAF?
> Egypt got more than 100 of them.
> Hongdu JL-8 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Plus she is manufacturing it on her own.
> *Why didn't we produced K-8 in Pakistan *although we did participated in it's development didn't we?



Will increase the cost of k8


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## Aamir Hussain

dreamer said:


> Alpha Jets




Nope K-8's!


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## Aamir Hussain

Not very keen on the colour scheme. It seems too loud and does not do justice to the clean lines of a/c specially around the nose.

Would also want to see it in the normal PAF camo or the orange tip version for trainers.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

It would be coold if the K8 can be fitted with a gun controlled by pilot's line of vision , flying at its subsonic its ideal way for it to take out jabs at enemy ground units


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## Mani2020

S.U.R.B. said:


> what's the current strength of K-8 in PAF?



~27 including the aircrafts ordered and still to b deliverd
Pak have the special version of it called k-8P according to web source its the most mordenized version in k-8 family


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## x_man

JK! said:


> Given the insurgency operations Pakistan is conducting it would be ]useful to have a K8 in a role like the AMX to have alongside Cobra helicopters providing support to the army on the ground.



With T-37s and Ft-5s becoming older and soon to be phased out, the basic training and the fighter conversion roles will swiftly shift on the shoulders of K-8. Even right now the K-8s are extensively used in training role and in view of their limited number it will not be feasible to move them away from training role into the combat role. However as their numbers increase, we will see K-8s spared for various other operational commitments. 

BTW T-37 can also carry a detachable gun and it will be rather appropriate to commit these birds for insurgency ops rather than K-8. Few South American countries have been using the attack version of T-37 known as A-37 quite successfully.

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## bc040400065

S.U.R.B. said:


> what's the current strength of K-8 in PAF?
> Egypt got more than 100 of them.
> Hongdu JL-8 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Plus she is manufacturing it on her own.
> Why didn't we produced K-8 in Pakistan although we did participated in it's development didn't we?



Because pakistan only manufactures parts of K8... and then it is assembled in china.


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## jamal18

I believe the decision not to build K-8's in Pakistan was due entirely to financial reasons, it was not worthwhile. Perhaps because they are being ordered in small quantities.


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## MZUBAIR

K8 with L-15 ...a nice *training and light attack combination*. One is subsonic and other is supersonic.

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## TOPGUN

Is there any new news about the L-15 that if we are gona get them??


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## Luftwaffe

JK!...you mean K-8 for day-time missions..


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## x_man



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## x_man



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## x_man



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## Wingman



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## Wingman




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## Wingman



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## moving_ahead

DOES PAKISTAN HAVE TOT FOR K-8s


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## xkasx

Put Gatling guns on K-8 and try to get something like A-10 thunderbolt out of it :p


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## Chaluboy

nice plane, reminds me of the bae hawk

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## bc040400065

moving_ahead said:


> DOES PAKISTAN HAVE TOT FOR K-8s



Pakistan is 25% partner in the K-8 .


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## lansquenet666

In China,K8=training plane
It will not be armed, because the research is aimed at producing a K8 training plane, Rather than the use in war


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## razgriz19

xkasx said:


> Put Gatling guns on K-8 and try to get something like A-10 thunderbolt out of it :p



i believe that red coloured pod under its belly is a machine gun....


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## Super Falcon

well L 15 is its succesor


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## Sinnerman108

xkasx said:


> Put Gatling guns on K-8 and try to get something like A-10 thunderbolt out of it :p



huh !
the recoil of that gun, is enough to shatter the whole fuselage in just the first burst !


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## Super Falcon

we needed trainer not a tank buster A 10 is not a trainer sir USA uses other for this not A 10


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## eagle20054



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## eagle20054



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## eagle20054



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## eagle20054

some more here from its cockpit..........

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## SBD-3

eagle20054 said:


>



nice indeed.....lovely bird

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## TOPGUN

Nice pic's thx

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## Gin ka Pakistan

How will IP beat the Trainee in K-8 , in T-37 they give good punches.


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## xkasx

salman108 said:


> huh !
> the recoil of that gun, is enough to shatter the whole fuselage in just the first burst !



I said a Gatling gun I didn't say specifically a 30mm Gatling gun. And when a lot of senior members talk about a stealthy version of JF-17 do you think they simply talk about making the current version stealthy ? No certainly it will need design modifications. what i meant was it can be used as a base to build something which can perform a similar role as A-10s.



Super Falcon said:


> we needed trainer not a tank buster A 10 is not a trainer sir USA uses other for this not A 10



Does my post say that A-10 is a trainer ? what i understand is K-8 will be a low maintenance and a cheap aircratf which MAY BE used as a close air support platform in Pak Army. plus if you catch me on its not simple then i would say the same what i said before " Yes it will need modifications" . But what i think its not just impossible.


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## TaimiKhan

*Egyptian Air Force Aerobatics Team with K-8 Karakorum trainer, beautiful video. *

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## a1b2c145

Wingman said:


>



it's dangerous,but excellent

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## Abu Zolfiqar

wah ji wah thanks for uploading these pictures!!


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## Sinnerman108

xkasx said:


> I said a Gatling gun I didn't say specifically a 30mm Gatling gun. And when a lot of senior members talk about a stealthy version of JF-17 do you think they simply talk about making the current version stealthy ? No certainly it will need design modifications. what i meant was it can be used as a base to build something which can perform a similar role as A-10s.
> 
> 
> 
> Does my post say that A-10 is a trainer ? what i understand is K-8 will be a low maintenance and a cheap aircratf which MAY BE used as a close air support platform in Pak Army. plus if you catch me on its not simple then i would say the same what i said before " Yes it will need modifications" . But what i think its not just impossible.



May be I have lived too much of my life with machines ... so I tend to take things empirically.
I am sorry I don't the machine which looks between the lines and tells me what people ACTUALLY think but don't write.

anyway ....

But a small gun on it ... what for ?

Secondly, how much do you know about aircraft design etc ?
If some thing has to be stealthy then it is designed from square zero to match that requirement.
let me make this crystal clear.
you can not take a jf-17 do some magical "modification" and roll out some thing that even qualifies for stealth.

Every time any one says that, it effectively effectively nullify all schools of engineering and design principles.

I just wish some thing could be done about education back home.


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## ejaz007

Its a long article so I am only posting the link:

China&#8217;s K-8 Jets: A Killer for Myanmar


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## Gexiao

A nice plane~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


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## Nishan_101

We should have our own K-8 Assembly line at PAC and we should build our K-8 on our own and i know that we are getting 25% share on sale of K-8 but only on airframe. Like we are using Honeywell engine we can take license from them to produce engine at PAC and we should build jointly avionics with E.U that can help in JF-17 as well as in K-8. We could develop supplier group in Pakistan through private enterprises or industries(newly built high tech industry) that can provide components as well as material (like carbon fiber) about 50-70% for airframe and 50-60% for engine and PAC would be assembling it at its facility and even if a industry that can produce electric or electronic equipment like some hardware electronics maker could come up that can help to provide PCB(Printing Circuit Boards) or other things to PAC. So in this way we could benefit our own economy as well as expanding our know how about aviation industry. The use of carbon fiber in K-8 & in JF-17 would reduce its weight and even RCS which would make it stealthy against some radars and overall thrust to weight ratio would be increased. And we could produce 100 K-8s (new ones) at PAC other than 12 that we have since 1994 instead of buying it from china and as well as 200-250 JF-17 and may be if GoP has invested in in Dual seater JF-17 (instead of buying L-15s) then we could go for 100-150 Jf-17 Dual seater that can enable a biggest flying school for Muslim World that can take benefit from us and we gain some good money for providing training to Muslim as well as other countries.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Great Video of Egyptian friends , they have mass produced the K-8!! Wonderful plane


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## ace slasher

according to combat aircraft magazaine 
venuezela has 12 K-8s and has ordered 24 more to be delivered this year 
will pakistan get any money out of it?


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## BATMAN

*K-8 Shoots Down Superior L-15 *
by James Dunnigan
September 4, 2010

A Chinese aircraft manufacturer has produced an attack version of the L-15 jet trainer. Normally, the L-15 just carries a trainee pilot and an instructor. But the attack version has a pilot and a weapons systems officer. The L-15 is a 9.5 ton aircraft with a max speed of 1,000 kilometers an hour and a combat radius of 550 kilometers. Since it first flew four years ago, the L-15 has been offered to the Chinese armed forces and foreign customers, without much success.
The problem is the K-8, which is a smaller, cheaper Chinese jet trainer. The K-8 is a 4.3 ton, two seat aircraft. The trainee and instructor are replaced by a pilot and observer on combat missions. Max speed is 800 kilometers an hour. The K-8 entered service in 1994, and over 500 have been built. The aircraft can be fitted with a 23mm cannon, and carry nearly a ton of missiles and bombs. Egypt and Pakistan also use the K-8. The aircraft sells for $4-5 million each. The L-15 sells for more than twice as much, but carries about the same amount of weapons. The L-15 is touted as a more suitable trainer for pilots headed for high performance (like the Su-30, F-16 or J-10) aircraft. But so far, air forces have found it more economical to buy the K-8.


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## Donatello

ace slasher said:


> according to combat aircraft magazaine
> venuezela has 12 K-8s and has ordered 24 more to be delivered this year
> will pakistan get any money out of it?



I highly doubt it as Pakistan doesn't manufacture it or has any technology in it other than that they requested China for it.


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## fatman17

the K-8 will replace the T-37 in the basic jet trainer category, so expect more K-8 to be inducted.
PAF has a need for a AJT (advanced jet trainer) and therefore the L-15 could be a choice, even though the chinese have opted to get a different trainer for its airforce (reported elsewhere on the forum already)


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## rAli

fatman17 said:


> the K-8 will replace the T-37 in the basic jet trainer category, so expect more K-8 to be inducted.
> PAF has a need for a AJT (advanced jet trainer) and therefore the L-15 could be a choice, even though the chinese have opted to get a different trainer for its airforce (reported elsewhere on the forum already)



Could twin-seat JF-17 be used for both AJT role and fighter conversion, instead of inducting another type, I would imagine JL-15 should be on par with JF-17s interms of cost.


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## mjnaushad

rAli said:


> Could twin-seat JF-17 be used for both AJT role and fighter conversion, instead of inducting another type, I would imagine JL-15 should be on par with JF-17s interms of cost.


2 seat version of JFT has been cancelled. There are no 2 seat version of JFT.


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## Rajput Warrior

penumbra said:


> I highly doubt it as Pakistan doesn't manufacture it or has any technology in it other than that they requested China for it.



R&D share and the money put in the system by PAC wont go wasted... they will get there share.


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## Quwa

mjnaushad said:


> 2 seat version of JFT has been cancelled. There are no 2 seat version of JFT.


According to PAF officials at Farnborough, the two-seat variant is still in the pipeline. It may not be used as a fighter-conversion trainer, but it would have a lot of use as specialized variants for strike, ECM/EW, etc.

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## BATMAN

fatman17 said:


> the K-8 will replace the T-37 in the basic jet trainer category, so expect more K-8 to be inducted.
> PAF has a need for a AJT (advanced jet trainer) and therefore the L-15 could be a choice, even though the chinese have opted to get a different trainer for its airforce (reported elsewhere on the forum already)



In past Pakistan had been looking into L-39 as a choice for advance jet trainer.


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## SQ8

Apparently the K-8 will be fulfilling that role for some time.. 
unless the L-15 ends up replacing the FT-5's.


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## mean_bird

penumbra said:


> I highly doubt it as Pakistan doesn't manufacture it or has any technology in it other than that they requested China for it.



PAC did manufacture part of K-8 like forward fuselage, etc. I do not know if they still do or not given PAC is now more interested in producing the JF-17.

Basically, the K-8 assembly was opted against given PAF was buying too few of them to justify a dedicated line for it. It did, however made parts of it that were shipped to china to be assembled there. Don't think thats the case now though.


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## fatman17

santro said:


> Apparently the K-8 will be fulfilling that role for some time..
> unless the L-15 ends up replacing the FT-5's.



the FT-5s will be replaced very soon say 2-3 years.


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## SQ8

fatman17 said:


> the FT-5s will be replaced very soon say 2-3 years.



Their life ends in 2011.


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## fatman17

santro said:


> Their life ends in 2011.



just for that reason 20 a/c r being upgraded at Kamra these days.!


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## fatman17

santro said:


> Apparently the K-8 will be fulfilling that role for some time..
> unless the L-15 ends up replacing the FT-5's.



it will be the JL-9 trainer.


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## SEAL

I read somewhere PAF is interested in L-159 AJT.


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## MZUBAIR

fatman17 said:


> just for that reason 20 a/c r being upgraded at Kamra these days.!



Which 20 AC's are being upgraded for Trainers ?
R these F-7's (twin seater)?


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## fatman17

MZUBAIR said:


> Which 20 AC's are being upgraded for Trainers ?
> R these F-7's (twin seater)?



FT-5s already in inventory

---------- Post added at 02:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:05 PM ----------




fox said:


> I read somewhere PAF is interested in L-159 AJT.



at US$20m/aircraft - too expensive.


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## wangrong

@fatman17

how many FT-6s?


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## TaimiKhan

wangrong said:


> @fatman17
> 
> how many FT-6s?



There are 25-30 FT-5s in service.

15-20 FT-6s in service.


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## miads

why don't Pakistan join JL-9 or L-15. I believe they are more capable than K-8 and can be used as attack aircraft in war time crisis. It can also train pilots for coming soon J-10, F-16 high-tech aircraft.

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## Arsalan

*Pakistan aerobatic team "Sherdils" to fly at Airshow China 2010
May 11, 2010*

Airshow China 2010 is glad to announce that the "Sherdils" aerobatic team of the Pakistan Airforce Academy will perform formation and maneuvers at the show. On May 11, 2010, a working group from the PAF visited Zhuhai and signed a memo. with its Chinese counter part for Sherdils' participation in the show, to take place from Nov. 16-21, 2010.

Officially formed on 17 August 1972, Sherdils is the aerobatics display team of the Pakistan Air Force Academy, based at PAF Academy Risalpur, Pakistan. The team used to fly the T-37 "Tweety Bird", and is composed of instructors of the Academy. Over the years the team has performed mostly nationally at the 23rd March Parades, Academy Graduation Parades, Air Shows for foreign dignitaries, including heads of state and military officers.

After 37 years of performances by T-37, the K-8 aircraft took over the mantle of &#161;&#174;Sherdils&#161;&#175;. K8 is an advanced trainer jointly developped by China and Pakistan. The K-8 first flew as Sherdils at the PAF Academy Graduation Parade on 18 November, 2009.

The aerobatic team will fly in a 4-ship formation and deliver overhead maneuver performaces, including run-in loops, wingover turns, and barrel rools.

Details:
Pakistan aerobatic team "Sherdils" to fly at Airshow China 2010

regards!

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## Manticore




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## Manticore

Venezuela Defensa: Incorpora fuerza aérea venezolana primeros aviones K-8 chinos


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## fatman17

miads said:


> why don't Pakistan join JL-9 or L-15. I believe they are more capable than K-8 and can be used as attack aircraft in war time crisis. It can also train pilots for coming soon J-10, F-16 high-tech aircraft.



china has agreed to supply 4 - JL-9s for T&E!


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## wangrong

*New 11  K8ps Delivered To Pakistan*











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## fatman17

wangrong said:


> *New 11 K8ps Delivered To Pakistan*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> &#20013;&#26032;&#32593;&#21335;&#26124;10&#26376;15&#26085;&#30005;(&#29579;&#21073; &#32918;&#21355;&#21326; &#26472;&#31456;&#3629110&#26376;13&#26085;&#65292;&#27946;&#37117;&#33322;&#31354;&#24037;&#19994;&#38598;&#22242;&#20844;&#21496;&#20026;&#24052;&#22522;&#26031;&#22374;&#29983;&#20135;&#30340;11&#26550;K8P&#39134;&#26426;&#27491;&#24335;&#20132;&#20184;&#32473;&#24052;&#22269;&#31354;&#20891;&#20351;&#29992;&#12290;&#27492;&#27425;&#20132;&#20184;&#30340;11&#26550;&#39134;&#26426;&#26159;&#24052;&#26041;&#37319;&#36141;&#30340;27&#26550;&#39134;&#26426;&#20013;&#30340;&#26368;&#21518;&#19968;&#25209;&#12290;
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;&#25454;&#20171;&#32461;&#65292;K8P&#39134;&#26426;&#26159;K8&#39134;&#26426;&#32463;&#37325;&#22823;&#25913;&#36827;&#21518;&#30340;&#26032;&#22411;&#22806;&#38144;&#26426;&#65292;&#26159;&#27946;&#37117;&#38598;&#22242;&#22806;&#36152;&#20986;&#21475;&#30340;&#37325;&#28857;&#26426;&#22411;&#12290;2005&#24180;&#65292;&#27946;&#37117;&#38598;&#22242;&#19982;&#24052;&#22522;&#26031;&#22374;&#31614;&#32626;&#20102;27&#26550;K8P&#39134;&#26426;&#30340;&#20986;&#21475;&#21512;&#21516;&#65292;&#39318;&#25209;K8P&#39134;&#26426;&#20110;2006&#24180;8&#26376;25&#26085;&#20132;&#20184;&#12290;
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;&#25454;&#27743;&#35199;&#30465;&#22269;&#38450;&#31185;&#23398;&#25216;&#26415;&#24037;&#19994;&#21150;&#20844;&#23460;&#28040;&#24687;&#65292;&#27492;&#21069;&#30340;9&#26376;24&#26085;&#65292;&#27946;&#37117;&#20844;&#21496;&#36824;&#22312;&#21335;&#32654;&#26576;&#22269;&#31354;&#20891;&#22522;&#22320;&#21521;&#29992;&#25143;&#20132;&#20184;&#20102;12&#26550;K8W&#39134;&#26426;&#12290;&#36825;12&#26550;&#39134;&#26426;&#26159;&#29992;&#25143;&#37319;&#36141;&#30340;18&#26550;&#39134;&#26426;&#20013;&#30340;&#31532;&#20108;&#25209;&#12290;&#27946;&#37117;&#20844;&#21496;&#22797;&#35013;&#20132;&#20184;&#20154;&#21592;&#20165;&#29992;18&#20010;&#24037;&#20316;&#26085;&#23601;&#23558;12&#26550;&#39134;&#26426;&#20840;&#37096;&#22797;&#35013;&#23436;&#25104;&#65292;&#24182;&#22312;&#19981;&#21040;&#19968;&#20010;&#26376;&#26102;&#38388;&#20869;&#23436;&#25104;&#20840;&#37096;&#20132;&#20184;&#12289;&#35797;&#39134;&#24037;&#20316;&#65292;&#21019;&#36896;&#20102;K8&#22806;&#36152;&#26426;&#20132;&#20184;&#21382;&#21490;&#19978;&#21333;&#26376;&#20132;&#20184;&#25968;&#37327;&#26368;&#22810;&#12289;&#20132;&#20184;&#36827;&#24230;&#26368;&#24555;&#30340;&#32426;&#24405;&#12290;
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;23&#26550;K8&#22806;&#36152;&#26426;&#30340;&#39034;&#21033;&#20132;&#20184;&#65292;&#20026;&#28023;&#22806;&#29992;&#25143;&#23545;K8&#31995;&#21015;&#39134;&#26426;&#30340;&#21518;&#32493;&#37319;&#36141;&#25171;&#19979;&#20102;&#19968;&#20010;&#33391;&#22909;&#30340;&#22522;&#30784;&#12290;
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;&#36817;&#24180;&#26469;&#65292;&#27946;&#37117;&#33322;&#31354;&#24037;&#19994;&#38598;&#22242;&#20844;&#21496;&#33268;&#21147;&#20110;&#24320;&#25299;&#22269;&#38469;&#24066;&#22330;&#12290;&#35813;&#20844;&#21496;&#30740;&#21046;&#29983;&#20135;&#30340;K8&#31995;&#21015;&#39134;&#26426;&#30446;&#21069;&#24050;&#36798;&#21040;&#22269;&#38469;&#21516;&#31867;&#20135;&#21697;&#30340;&#20808;&#36827;&#27700;&#24179;&#65292;&#25317;&#26377;&#21313;&#20010;&#22269;&#23478;&#30340;&#29992;&#25143;&#65292;&#32047;&#31215;&#38144;&#21806;500&#22810;&#26550;&#12290;&#36817;&#20960;&#24180;&#65292;&#27946;&#37117;&#20844;&#21496;&#23545;K8&#39134;&#26426;&#21152;&#22823;&#20102;&#31185;&#30740;&#25237;&#20837;&#65292;&#25913;&#36827;&#20102;&#33322;&#30005;&#31995;&#32479;&#65292;&#25512;&#20986;&#20102;K8P&#39134;&#26426;&#23631;&#26174;&#25216;&#26415;&#29366;&#24577;&#65292;&#20135;&#21697;&#36827;&#34892;&#20102;&#21319;&#32423;&#65292;&#24471;&#21040;&#22269;&#38469;&#29992;&#25143;&#30340;&#19968;&#33268;&#36190;&#35465;&#12290;(&#23436;&#65289;



can someone translate this good news for us!


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## Gin ka Pakistan

fatman17 said:


> can someone translate this good news for us!



(Thanks to) Free Translation | Online Text Translator

New net Nanchang, October 15 - (Wang Jianxiao Wei Huayang a chapter of leap) on October 13, the Hong all aviation industry group company 11 K8P airplane official payment which produces for Pakistan Country Air force uses for Pakistan.This payment 11 airplanes are in 27 airplane last batch which Palestine purchases.
&#12288;&#12288;According to the introduction, the K8P airplane is the K8 airplane after significant improvement new for sale abroad machine, is the Hong all group foreign trade exportation key model aircraft.In 2005, the Hong all group and Pakistan signed 27 K8P airplanes to export the contract, the first batch K8P airplane paid in 2006 August 25.
&#12288;&#12288;According to the Jiangxi Province national defense science and technology industry office news, before this on September 24, the Hong all company also has paid 1 2 K8W airplane in the South America some country air force base to the user.These 12 airplanes are in the user purchase 18 airplane second batch.The Hong all company duplicate attire pays the personnel only to use for 18 working days on to complete completely 12 airplane duplicate attires, and completes in month time pays, the test flight work completely, created in the K8 foreign trade machine payment history in the odd-numbered month to pay quantity to be most, the payment progress quickest record.
&#12288;&#12288;23 K8 foreign trade machine smooth payment, has built a good foundation for the overseas user to the K8 series airplane following purchase.
&#12288;&#12288;In recent years, the Hong all aviation industry group company devoted to the development international market.This company develops the production the K8 series airplane to achieve at present the international similar product the advanced level, has ten national users, the accumulation sells more than 500.

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## wangrong

*PLZ notice this pic*

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## Koga Ryu

I am assuming this missile is PL-7 or magic 2


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## fatman17

BUSINESS 
Date Posted: 19-Oct-2010 

Jane's Defence Weekly 

*Hongdu Corporation claims to have 70 per cent of global intermediate trainer market*

Jon Grevatt Jane's Asia-Pacific Industry Reporter - Bangkok

The Hongdu Aviation Industry Group (HAIC) has delivered 23 K-8 Karakorum jet trainer/light attack aircraft to international customers in recent weeks, taking its share of the global mid-level trainer market to 70 per cent, said HAIC's parent company, the Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC), on 18 October. 

AVIC said that HAIC delivered a final batch of 11 K-8s to Pakistan on 13 October to complete Islamabad's 2005 order of 27 aircraft, while on 24 September HAIC delivered 12 K-8 armed trainers to Venezuela to take that country's K-8 inventory to 18. 

The Pakistan Air Force now operates 39 K-8s and Venezuela has previously indicated that it will procure a total of 40 units. However, a contract for additional aircraft has not yet been signed. 

According to AVIC "more than 270 K-8 aircraft have now been delivered to more than a dozen Asian, African and South American countries, occupying more than 70 per cent of the global market share for intermediate trainers". 

Outside China, which operates around 200 K-8s, Egypt has taken delivery of 120 K-8s - most of which were licensed-produced by Egyptian-led Arab Organisation for Industrialisation - while other operators include Ghana, Namibia, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Sudan, Zambia and Zimbabwe. 

In addition, in 2009 Bolivia ordered six K-8s and Myanmar signed a contract with HAIC to procure an additional 60 units. This latter programme is divided into three phases. The first will see the delivery of 12 aircraft; the second involves the transfer of technologies, equipment and tools; and the third facilitates Myanmar's licensed production of the remaining 48 aircraft.

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## fatman17

* Hongdu Aviation Industrial Group (HAIG)*

K-8 Karakorum 
D;12 
Cu;11 
L;1 

- In service from January 1995

- Note: An initial batch of 6 K-8 trainers was handed-over at Nanchang on 21st September 1994, with the type officially inducted into the PAF on 25th January 1995. A second batch of 6 aircraft was acquired in July 2003, with all 12 supplied in a standard export configuration. All will be progressively upgraded to K-8P standard by PAC Kamra whilst undergoing major overhaul.

 K-8P Karakorum 
D;28
Cu; 28
On Order;11

- In service from September 2007

- Note: An order for 27 improved K-8P Karakorums was placed in 2005, the HUD & MFD making this variant suitable for the weapons training role. The first batch of 8 K-8P aircraft was supplied in September 2007, followed by another 8 on 16th January 2009. The final batch of 11 was delivered on 13th October 2010. All K-8s from the initial procurement of 12 in standard configuration are progressively being upgraded to this standard.

AFI

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## fatman17

TaimiKhan said:


> There are 25-30 FT-5s in service.
> 
> 15-20 FT-6s in service.



latest position;

Shenyang Aircraft Corporation
FT-5 
D;64 
Cu;20 
Lost;4 
Stored;40 
- In service from 1970

 FT-6 
D;40
Cu; 6
Stored;30+ 
- In service from 1970

AFI

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## air marshal



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## Abu Zolfiqar

^^^^^^^^^^

*excellent* post, Salman bhai. Thanks for uploading

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## Windjammer

Final Batch of PAF K-8Ps Delivered

China's Hongdu Aircraft Industry Group (HAIG) delivered the final batch of eleven K-8P Karakorum jet trainer aircraft to the Pakistan Air Force on October 13. The type is operated by the PAF Academy's Advanced/Basic Flying Training Squadron at PAF Base Risalpur, which now operates a total of 28 K-8Ps following the latest arrivals.
Originally the PAF had ordered 12 K-8s in a standard export configuration. The first six of these were handed over at the Nanchang factory on September 21, 1994. They were then formally inducted into PAF service in Pakistan on January 25, 1995. A further 27 improved K-8P variants were ordered from HAIG in 2005. These incorporated additional features, including a head-up display and cockpit multifunction displays, to assist with weapon training. The first 8 K-8Ps were delivered in September 2007, followed by 8 more on January 16, 2009. The remaining eleven arrived on October 13, 2010. At least one of the original batch of K-8s has now been upgraded to the new K-8P standard at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) in Kamra. All of the remaining older models are also due to be modernised to K-8Ps by PAC Kamra as they become due for major overhaul.
Source: AFM. Dec. 2010.

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## fatman17

Windjammer said:


> Final Batch of PAF K-8Ps Delivered
> 
> China's Hongdu Aircraft Industry Group (HAIG) delivered the final batch of eleven K-8P Karakorum jet trainer aircraft to the Pakistan Air Force on October 13. The type is operated by the PAF Academy's Advanced/Basic Flying Training Squadron at PAF Base Risalpur, which now operates a total of 28 K-8Ps following the latest arrivals.
> Originally the PAF had ordered 12 K-8s in a standard export configuration. The first six of these were handed over at the Nanchang factory on September 21, 1994. They were then formally inducted into PAF service in Pakistan on January 25, 1995. A further 27 improved K-8P variants were ordered from HAIG in 2005. These incorporated additional features, including a head-up display and cockpit multifunction displays, to assist with weapon training. The first 8 K-8Ps were delivered in September 2007, followed by 8 more on January 16, 2009. The remaining eleven arrived on October 13, 2010. At least one of the original batch of K-8s has now been upgraded to the new K-8P standard at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) in Kamra. All of the remaining older models are also due to be modernised to K-8Ps by PAC Kamra as they become due for major overhaul.
> Source: AFM. Dec. 2010.



sirjee - thanks but already posted earlier


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## Pk_Thunder



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## Pk_Thunder



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## houshanghai



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## houshanghai



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## houshanghai



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## houshanghai

YouTube - PAF aerobatic team "Sherdils" performace IN ZHUHAI AIRSHOW

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## humza_313

i just love this trainer jet.>!


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## DANGER-ZONE



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## Chogy

That is a truly beautiful airplane. I've always loved advanced jet trainers. This one ranks right up there (in looks) with the BAE Hawk, the L-39, and my favorite, the Northrop T-38. Note how they all have much in common: Light weight, small size, tandem seating, economical to operate. Most are single engine with the exception of the T-38.

Note how as the aircraft advance in design, the instructor's rear seat has been raised higher. The visibility from the back seat of the T-38 is not particularly good.

Hawk:





L-39:





T-38:

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## SQ8

You probably have had your time on the T-37 as well I guess..considering they were only recently retired from the USAF.


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## Chogy

santro said:


> You probably have had your time on the T-37 as well I guess..considering they were only recently retired from the USAF.



I did... the Tweet was a reliable trainer but very much overcomplicated for primary training. The engines were ancient, they actually used centrifugal flow rather than axial flow, and spool-up was slooooow, dangerously slow.

The ejection system used a bang-seat (a small artillery shell) instead of a rocket seat, and not only was the envelope smaller, it tended to injure peoples' spines. I know Pakistan still uses them, and if well-maintained, they'll work fine, but there are better options these days, like the Tucano and similar.

The attitude of the USAF originally was "If you can fly the T-37 and T-38, you can fly anything" and there was some truth to that. Both were twin-engined jets, and the T-38 was NOT forgiving in the landing phase. The USAF has since gone to a two-track system. You start in the T-6 Texan II, then those destined for fighters move to the T-38, while those to heavies fly a modified business jet. And the USAF is currently looking for a replacement for the T-38.

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## SQ8

Chogy said:


> I did... the Tweet was a reliable trainer but very much overcomplicated for primary training. The engines were ancient, they actually used centrifugal flow rather than axial flow, and spool-up was slooooow, dangerously slow.
> 
> The ejection system used a bang-seat (a small artillery shell) instead of a rocket seat, and not only was the envelope smaller, it tended to injure peoples' spines. I know Pakistan still uses them, and if well-maintained, they'll work fine, but there are better options these days, like the Tucano and similar.
> T-38.



That..and from my last visit to the training base..I lost my hearing for a day from the whine of those engines..
The T-37's are all being replaced by the K-8's..
however there still wont be something in the speed bracket between the MFI-17 at 120 knots.. to the K-8 which is above the 200 knots to 300 knots..Wonder if that will be an issue for training..


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## fatman17

the first example of K-8s inducted into the PAF in 1996 has now been upgraded to the new K-8P standard at the PAC, Kamra. all of the remaining older models (11 surviving examples) are also due to be modernised to K-8P by Kamra as they become due for major overhaul.

AFM - Dec-2010

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## DANGER-ZONE



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## DANGER-ZONE



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## DANGER-ZONE

*Super Snap*

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## fatman17

danger-zone said:


> *Super Snap*



they are all 'IPs' so they are quite experienced and skillful.


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## rolandzhangt

&#21457;&#36825;&#20010;&#24086;&#23376;&#26159;&#20026;&#20102;&#25226;&#20013;&#22269;&#30340;4&#20195;&#26426;&#30340;&#22270;&#29255;&#21457;&#19978;&#26469;
Pls webmaster forgive me!


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## black_magic pk

rolandzhangt said:


> &#21457;&#36825;&#20010;&#24086;&#23376;&#26159;&#20026;&#20102;&#25226;&#20013;&#22269;&#30340;4&#20195;&#26426;&#30340;&#22270;&#29255;&#21457;&#19978;&#26469;
> Pls webmaster forgive me!



who are you?????????????????


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## Abu Zolfiqar

i suspect he's a hindustany troll posing as Chinese

he posted the same message in 3-4 other threads as well


go figure


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## hataf

black_magic pk said:


> who are you?????????????????





Abu Zolfiqar said:


> i suspect he's a hindustany troll posing as Chinese
> 
> he posted the same message in 3-4 other threads as well
> 
> 
> go figure



he is chinese. he is completing his first 15 post so that he can post images . . . . of J-xx

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## DANGER-ZONE

Deleted...


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## Mani2020



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## fatman17

AMERICAS, THE 
Date Posted: 21-Jan-2011 


Jane's Defence Weekly 

*Bolivian Air Force to receive six Chinese K-8s*

Inigo Guevara JDW Correspondent - Mexico City

The Bolivian Air Force (Fuerza Aérea Boliviana - FAB) is to receive six China National Aero-Technology Import & Export Corporation K-8 Karakorum armed jet trainers by April 2011, according to General Tito Gandarilla, commander of the FAB. 

The aircraft will begin operations with the 34th Fighter Group out of Cochabamba and will be deployed throughout the country after reaching their initial operating capability. 

The jet trainers will be the first newly built combat aircraft for the FAB in its history and will allow a partial replacement of the ageing T-33 fleet. The K-8s will be employed mainly in anti-narcotics operations, intercepting illegal or suspicious aircraft. 

Gen Gandarilla also announced that the FAB is in need of at least six Mi-17V-5 medium-lift helicopters to support disaster relief operations, as the country has suffered from extensive flooding. 


_the success of the K-8 is growing!_


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## DANGER-ZONE

*China, November 14, 2010*_Training flight for Airshow China 2010_

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## fatman17

*K-8V* 

First unveiled at 1998 Zhuhai Airshow, K-8V is the 2nd generation "variable stability aircraft and inflight simulation test aircraft" (IFSTA). Modified by CFTE from a single K-8 intermediate trainer (#203), it features a three-axial variable stability FBW system allowing it to simulate the flight characteristics of various aircraft, such as F-16, Mirage 2000, J-8 and Su-27, by loading various software of flight parameters. Up to 8 sets of flight parameters can be loaded into the computer for each flight. Its forward cockpit has been equipped with the FBW controls while the rear cockpit retaining the mechanical controls as the emergency backup. GPS and MFDs were also installed in the forward cockpit. K-8V not only can simulate pitch, roll and yaw, but also can simulate take-off and landing of other aircraft. Since its first flight in June 1991, K-8V is believed to have become a valuable tool in simulating and verifying the new generation of Chinese military aircraft designs, such as J-10 and JH-7A. 

- Last Updated 9/18/05


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## TOPGUN

fatman17 said:


> *K-8V*
> 
> First unveiled at 1998 Zhuhai Airshow, K-8V is the 2nd generation "variable stability aircraft and inflight simulation test aircraft" (IFSTA). Modified by CFTE from a single K-8 intermediate trainer (#203), it features a three-axial variable stability FBW system allowing it to simulate the flight characteristics of various aircraft, such as F-16, Mirage 2000, J-8 and Su-27, by loading various software of flight parameters. Up to 8 sets of flight parameters can be loaded into the computer for each flight. Its forward cockpit has been equipped with the FBW controls while the rear cockpit retaining the mechanical controls as the emergency backup. GPS and MFDs were also installed in the forward cockpit. K-8V not only can simulate pitch, roll and yaw, but also can simulate take-off and landing of other aircraft. Since its first flight in June 1991, K-8V is believed to have become a valuable tool in simulating and verifying the new generation of Chinese military aircraft designs, such as J-10 and JH-7A.
> 
> - Last Updated 9/18/05


 
Do we have this type ?


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## farhan_9909

is their any video of K-8 performing any manuvers? except the sherdil one's


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## fatman17

TOPGUN said:


> Do we have this type ?



no its a 'test-bed'

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## krash

farhan_9909 said:


> is their any video of K-8 performing any manuvers? except the sherdil one's


 
A very well made video of some egyption K-8s


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## TOPGUN

krash said:


> A very well made video of some egyption K-8s


 
Seen this video before pretty kool ...


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## Stealth_fighter



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## sanasahil

Great planes, Pakistan is getting better even under pressure, iqbal rightly said "yeh to urti hai tujhe uncha urane ke liye"

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## fatman17

*Pakistan to Acquire L-15 Supersonic Jet Trainer Aircraft*

05 February 2010


The Pakistani Air Force (PAF) is to acquire L-15 supersonic jet trainer aircraft from China to equip its transition pilots with advanced fighters and reduce the number of its trainer aircraft from four to two.

The Hongdu-developed L-15 can carry light rockets and bombs, and air-to-air missiles. It mainly fulfils a counter-insurgency role.

The L-15 aircraft, equipped with two seats and two engines, features technologies such as digital quadruple fly-by-wire and glass cockpit (two multicolour head-down displays for both the front and rear cockpit.

The L-15 aircraft also features an additional head-up display for the front cockpit, and hands-on-throttle-and-stick (HOTAS) flight control.

The L-15 aircraft will replace the K-8 Karakorum basic / advanced jet trainer, which is currently used by the PAF.

The air force has conducted detailed examinations of the L-15 aircraft, and is currently undergoing negotiations on technical aspects and pricing.


_is this report true?_


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## krash

fatman17 said:


> *Pakistan to Acquire L-15 Supersonic Jet Trainer Aircraft*
> 
> 05 February 2010
> 
> 
> The Pakistani Air Force (PAF) is to acquire L-15 supersonic jet trainer aircraft from China to equip its transition pilots with advanced fighters and reduce the number of its trainer aircraft from four to two.
> 
> The Hongdu-developed L-15 can carry light rockets and bombs, and air-to-air missiles. It mainly fulfils a counter-insurgency role.
> 
> The L-15 aircraft, equipped with two seats and two engines, features technologies such as digital quadruple fly-by-wire and glass cockpit (two multicolour head-down displays for both the front and rear cockpit.
> 
> The L-15 aircraft also features an additional head-up display for the front cockpit, and hands-on-throttle-and-stick (HOTAS) flight control.
> 
> *The L-15 aircraft will replace the K-8 Karakorum basic / advanced jet trainer,* which is currently used by the PAF.
> 
> The air force has conducted detailed examinations of the L-15 aircraft, and is currently undergoing negotiations on technical aspects and pricing.
> 
> 
> _is this report true?_


 
Dont the trainers belong to different classes???? Isnt the L-15 going to supplement the K-8?


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## Fieldmarshal

fatman17 said:


> *Pakistan to Acquire L-15 Supersonic Jet Trainer Aircraft*
> 
> 05 February 2010
> 
> 
> 
> The L-15 aircraft will replace the K-8 Karakorum basic / advanced jet trainer, which is currently used by the PAF.
> 
> [/I]



NO they wont!
if at all they will replace ft-5/ft-6 which are used in AJT/fighter conversion roles.


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## TOPGUN

fatman17 said:


> *Pakistan to Acquire L-15 Supersonic Jet Trainer Aircraft*
> 
> 05 February 2010
> 
> 
> The Pakistani Air Force (PAF) is to acquire L-15 supersonic jet trainer aircraft from China to equip its transition pilots with advanced fighters and reduce the number of its trainer aircraft from four to two.
> 
> The Hongdu-developed L-15 can carry light rockets and bombs, and air-to-air missiles. It mainly fulfils a counter-insurgency role.
> 
> The L-15 aircraft, equipped with two seats and two engines, features technologies such as digital quadruple fly-by-wire and glass cockpit (two multicolour head-down displays for both the front and rear cockpit.
> 
> The L-15 aircraft also features an additional head-up display for the front cockpit, and hands-on-throttle-and-stick (HOTAS) flight control.
> 
> The L-15 aircraft will replace the K-8 Karakorum basic / advanced jet trainer, which is currently used by the PAF.
> 
> The air force has conducted detailed examinations of the L-15 aircraft, and is currently undergoing negotiations on technical aspects and pricing.
> 
> 
> _is this report true?_


\

Do we know how many we will be getting?


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## houshanghai

PLAN K8

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## TOPGUN

I wonder if and when we get the L-15 trainer aircrafts if they will be used for light attack roles other then just the training role ?


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## fatman17

TOPGUN said:


> \
> 
> Do we know how many we will be getting?



if reports are true, we will get 4 a/c for evaluation purposes before making a firm order

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## DANGER-ZONE

One bird on left side is a little out of formation, but still look GUD .

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## marcos98

*China's Jiao-8 jet finishes first live rocket exercise*


> Soldiers of the PLA Air Force prepare for the takeoff of a Jiao-8 jet trainer on April 20, 2011.
> 
> China's Jiao-8 trainer aircraft successfully fired rocket projectiles on targets on Tuesday for the first time since its deployment in the 1990s. Zhang Lanrui, senior colonel of the PLA Air Force, said the Jiao-8 aircraft has not fully utilized its fire control system and assault capability since its deployment.
> 
> The first live fire test of rocket projectile is important for exploiting the performance of the weapon system of Jiao-8, increasing its long-range and air-to-ground striking ability.






Uploaded with ImageShack.us




Uploaded with ImageShack.us



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

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## TOPGUN

We should use some of the K-8's in the wot and change the color schme to grey or something else i think it would be in good use there .

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## Manticore




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## houshanghai

6 Bolivia new k8

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## GHOST RIDER

What weapons can these be equipped with????????


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## fatman17

GHOST RIDER said:


> What weapons can these be equipped with????????



unguided rockets
23mm cannon
aam's

it can be used as a COIN a/c - Venezuela, chile or peru are using K-8 as a COIN platform

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## TOPGUN

fatman17 said:


> unguided rockets
> 23mm cannon
> aam's
> 
> it can be used as a COIN a/c - Venezuela, chile or peru are using K-8 as a COIN platform


 
Thx Fatman for the wepons info i just wonder why doesn't PAF use them as in COIN a/c and use them on wot?


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## GHOST RIDER

fatman17 said:


> unguided rockets
> 23mm cannon
> aam's
> 
> it can be used as a COIN a/c - Venezuela, chile or peru are using K-8 as a COIN platform



what does COIN platform mean????????????


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## ace slasher

COIN= COunter INsurgency

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## epinephrine

Y SHOULD WE USE K 8 AGAINST TALIBANS WHEN WE HAVE BETTER PLATFORMS AVAILABLE FOR THIS PURPOSE?
A SINGLE F-16 WILL DO A MISSION FAR MORE EFFICIENTLY FOR WHICH 8 K8S MAY BE REQUIRED.
SECONDLY TALIBAN'S HIDE OUTS R NOT EASY TARGETS.THEY R USUALLY WELL DUG IN CAVES N FORTIFIED BUNKERS AGAINST WHICH U NEED PRECISE N ACCURATE BOMBS.20 MM CANNON OR ROCKETS WILL BE SIMILAR TO TRY TO DESTROY A TANK USING A STONE


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## DESERT FIGHTER

epinephrine said:


> Y SHOULD WE USE K 8 AGAINST TALIBANS WHEN WE HAVE BETTER PLATFORMS AVAILABLE FOR THIS PURPOSE?
> A SINGLE F-16 WILL DO A MISSION FAR MORE EFFICIENTLY FOR WHICH 8 K8S MAY BE REQUIRED.
> SECONDLY TALIBAN'S HIDE OUTS R NOT EASY TARGETS.THEY R USUALLY WELL DUG IN CAVES N FORTIFIED BUNKERS AGAINST WHICH U NEED PRECISE N ACCURATE BOMBS.20 MM CANNON OR ROCKETS WILL BE SIMILAR TO TRY TO DESTROY A TANK USING A STONE



For cost effective ground support.


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## epinephrine

THE GROUND SUPPORT,IF PROVIDED BY K8,WILL BE CHEAP BUT NOT EFFECTIVE.TALIBANS ALSO HAVE ANTI AIR CRAFT GUNS AT SOME PLACES SO Y TO RISK A PLANE N A PILOT'S LIFE??


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## fatman17

epinephrine said:


> THE GROUND SUPPORT,IF PROVIDED BY K8,WILL BE CHEAP BUT NOT EFFECTIVE.TALIBANS ALSO HAVE ANTI AIR CRAFT GUNS AT SOME PLACES SO Y TO RISK A PLANE N A PILOT'S LIFE??



12.7mm is quite effective at low-levels

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## houshanghai



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## Manticore

comparison of the export version of k8 to bolivia-- paf k8 have honeywel engine if i recall


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## Manticore

A highlight of the K-8 is that China offers to export
una capacidad limitada para la Defensa Aérea de Punto para lo limited capacity to Point Air Defense for the
que podría ser armado con un Pod UPK-23-250 con dos cañones that could be armed with a pod UPK-23-250 with two barrels
de 23mm + 250 disparos y dos misiles (IR) PL-7 (copia del Magic II) 23mm + 250 shots and two missiles (IR) PL-7 (copy of Magic II)
o PL-5E (copia del AIM-9L Sidewinder) or PL-5E (copy of AIM-9L Sidewinder)


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## houshanghai

more pics
??K8| ?? - ??? - powered by phpwind.net

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## Manticore

South Korea this week rolled out the first armed T-50, the TA-50 which is designed to carry out entry-level tactical training missions.-- might effect L-15 sales [export to indonesia confirmed]





http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...8-combat-aircraft-designs-44.html#post1973829

News on chinese sites is that mass production of L-15 is rumoured to be starting


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## Luftwaffe

KAI T-50 variants except for (T-50P/FA-50) are under powered and expensive. 
TAI FA-50 that is to replace F-5s and Polish air force proposed twin seater are yet to be seen as to what sort of weapons/systems avionics and engine would be used. Both south korea and Polish air force wants all weather Multirole for that the I'm not sure if the current GE engine is enough. The price tag will also go beyond $25M..


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## nomi007

k-8 is world class jet
economical for poor countries with advance features


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## Tempest II

The August issue has an article on AVIC from Paris Airshow. They are developing a K-8 version with a radar for more/enhanced air-to-air functions.

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## emotionless_teenage

Luftwaffe said:


> KAI T-50 variants except for (T-50P/FA-50) are under powered and expensive.
> TAI FA-50 that is to replace F-5s and Polish air force proposed twin seater are yet to be seen as to what sort of weapons/systems avionics and engine would be used. Both south korea and Polish air force wants all weather Multirole for that the I'm not sure if the current GE engine is enough. The price tag will also go beyond $25M..


 
The engine is used by heavier F/A-18(which operates on an aircraft carrier) thus powering a lighter and smaller land base aircraft would be more than enough.T-50 and F/A-50 is different in their purpose and requirement,and F/A-50 has more advanced avionic(to support it's multirole mission) thus justify the increase in price


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## fatman17

Tempest II said:


> The August issue has an article on AVIC from Paris Airshow. They are developing a K-8 version with a radar for more/enhanced air-to-air functions.



.....plus many other news!


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## marcos98



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## marcos98



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## Pak_Sher

K-8 is a good project, but needs additional improvements. PAF needs to increase self reliance in aviation and space technology in the medium to long term. K-8 will be the foundation for superior models in the future.


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## GHOST RIDER




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## monitor




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## razgriz19

i just read an artile and it said Pakistan makes the frontal fuselage for K-8!
meaning we do get certain amount of money from all those K-8 exports.

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## Manticore

razgriz19 said:


> i just read an artile and it said Pakistan makes the frontal fuselage for K-8!
> meaning we do get certain amount of money from all those K-8 exports.




were you referring to this 2002 info?

DAWN.COM | Archive | Your Source of News on the World Wide Web



K-8 fuselage handed over to China


By Our Correspondent

ATTOCK, Nov 5: Pakistan Aircraft Manufacturing Factory (PAMF), Kamra, handed over the first front fuselage of K-8 aircraft to Peoples Republic of China at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), Kamra, on Tuesday.

Speaking at the handing over ceremony, the PAC chairman, Air Vice Marshal Aurangzeb Khan, appreciated the efforts of the PAMF in establishing itself as a recognized equipment manufacturer with an ultimate goal to manufacture a modern fighter jet for Pakistan Air Force.

The handing over documents were signed by the managing director of the PAMF, Air Cdre Zakir H. Khan, and the Chinese defence attache, Maj-Gen Saa E. Chee Khua.

The PAC chairman said the PAMF could rightly take pride in its accomplishments as the designing and development of K-8 itself was an achievement.

The induction of the aircraft in air forces of Pakistan, China, Egypt, Myanmar, Zambia, and Namibia bear testimony to this fact, he added.

He said the PAC had immense potential to grow and it was the prime organization for production, repair and overhaul of military aircraft and equipment. "Today, the PAMF has completed assembly of first front fuselage, which shall bring us closer to the envisaged goal of achieving 25 per cent production of airframe structure at the factory."

We are also in the process of evaluating transfer of technology programme, which is of national importance, the chairman added.

He appreciated the support and understanding extended by the CATIC and Hun Do Aviation Industrial Group, China, with the PAMF throughout all the phases of the K-8 project.

Earlier, highlighting the achievements and features of the PAMF, Air Cdre Zakir said the K-8 project was launched in 1986.

He said the K-8 prototype flew its maiden flight in 1991 and after all designs parameters were successfully achieved, both the sides vowed to continue co-operation in small batch production phase.

The managing director said the contract for transfer of technology of front fuselage was signed in 1999.

The production schedule stipulates manufacture of three front fuselages in 15 months out of which first fuselage has been completed, while assembly of second and third is under way and expected to complete in time, he added.

Air Cdre Zakir said that front fuselage comprised of aircraft nose cone, front and rear cockpit, nose landing gear, aircraft gun and canopy.

"Pakistan and China together have successfully accomplished many projects in the past and K-8 co-development is an example which can be proudly quoted."

The K-8 is a stepping stone to get involved in projects like co-development of Super-7, a light combat aircraft, which is scheduled to make its maiden test flight in June, 2003, he added.

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## Manticore



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## Chogy

I love the lines of this aircraft.

An interesting concept is to build a HUGE fleet of this sort of airplane... K-8, Bae Hawk, L-39, T-38, F-5. Simple subsonic/transonic trainer type turbojet airplanes. The cost is low. Next, you arm them with the most ultra-modern IR missiles, like the AIM-9X. Best would be a helmet site for HOBs use. No gun, no radar.

Swarms of these could be used for point defense. Overwhelm the enemy with numbers. It would require a ground or air based surveillance/GCI radar. Such formations could protect an important area, but only during daylight hours. And they would drop like flies vs. more modern platforms, but numbers could win in the end. You'd have no shortage of volunteer pilots despite the dangers.

It's the same old story, quality vs. quantity. And as the Soviets (maybe it was the Chinese) say, "Quantity is a quality all its own."

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## fatman17

razgriz19 said:


> i just read an artile and it said Pakistan makes the frontal fuselage for K-8!
> meaning we do get certain amount of money from all those K-8 exports.



kamra's contribution is 25%.

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## jamal18

Chogy said:


> I love the lines of this aircraft.
> 
> An interesting concept is to build a HUGE fleet of this sort of airplane... K-8, Bae Hawk, L-39, T-38, F-5. Simple subsonic/transonic trainer type turbojet airplanes. The cost is low. Next, you arm them with the most ultra-modern IR missiles, like the AIM-9X. Best would be a helmet site for HOBs use. No gun, no radar.
> 
> Swarms of these could be used for point defense. Overwhelm the enemy with numbers. It would require a ground or air based surveillance/GCI radar. Such formations could protect an important area, but only during daylight hours. And they would drop like flies vs. more modern platforms, but numbers could win in the end. You'd have no shortage of volunteer pilots despite the dangers.
> 
> It's the same old story, quality vs. quantity. And as the Soviets (maybe it was the Chinese) say, "Quantity is a quality all its own."



There was talk of a single seat version being developed for air-defence, but have nothing more of it for a while.

Yes, I like your idea.
'
And I love the old US proverb : 'quantity has a quality all of its own!'


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## razgriz19

ANTIBODY said:


> were you referring to this 2002 info?
> 
> DAWN.COM | Archive | Your Source of News on the World Wide Web
> 
> 
> 
> K-8 fuselage handed over to China
> 
> 
> By Our Correspondent
> 
> ATTOCK, Nov 5: Pakistan Aircraft Manufacturing Factory (PAMF), Kamra, handed over the first front fuselage of K-8 aircraft to Peoples Republic of China at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), Kamra, on Tuesday.
> 
> Speaking at the handing over ceremony, the PAC chairman, Air Vice Marshal Aurangzeb Khan, appreciated the efforts of the PAMF in establishing itself as a recognized equipment manufacturer with an ultimate goal to manufacture a modern fighter jet for Pakistan Air Force.
> 
> The handing over documents were signed by the managing director of the PAMF, Air Cdre Zakir H. Khan, and the Chinese defence attache, Maj-Gen Saa E. Chee Khua.
> 
> The PAC chairman said the PAMF could rightly take pride in its accomplishments as the designing and development of K-8 itself was an achievement.
> 
> The induction of the aircraft in air forces of Pakistan, China, Egypt, Myanmar, Zambia, and Namibia bear testimony to this fact, he added.
> 
> He said the PAC had immense potential to grow and it was the prime organization for production, repair and overhaul of military aircraft and equipment. "Today, the PAMF has completed assembly of first front fuselage, which shall bring us closer to the envisaged goal of achieving 25 per cent production of airframe structure at the factory."
> 
> We are also in the process of evaluating transfer of technology programme, which is of national importance, the chairman added.
> 
> He appreciated the support and understanding extended by the CATIC and Hun Do Aviation Industrial Group, China, with the PAMF throughout all the phases of the K-8 project.
> 
> Earlier, highlighting the achievements and features of the PAMF, Air Cdre Zakir said the K-8 project was launched in 1986.
> 
> He said the K-8 prototype flew its maiden flight in 1991 and after all designs parameters were successfully achieved, both the sides vowed to continue co-operation in small batch production phase.
> 
> The managing director said the contract for transfer of technology of front fuselage was signed in 1999.
> 
> The production schedule stipulates manufacture of three front fuselages in 15 months out of which first fuselage has been completed, while assembly of second and third is under way and expected to complete in time, he added.
> 
> Air Cdre Zakir said that front fuselage comprised of aircraft nose cone, front and rear cockpit, nose landing gear, aircraft gun and canopy.
> 
> "Pakistan and China together have successfully accomplished many projects in the past and K-8 co-development is an example which can be proudly quoted."
> 
> The K-8 is a stepping stone to get involved in projects like co-development of Super-7, a light combat aircraft, which is scheduled to make its maiden test flight in June, 2003, he added.



aahhh i can't seem to remember but it could be this one..


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## Windjammer

*Not sure if these have been posted before, besides point defence, the K-8 can also be deployed for counter insurgency and light strike roles with Gun pod and Rockets.*

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## monitor




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## regular

Windjammer said:


> *Not sure if these have been posted before, besides point defence, the K-8 can also be deployed for counter insurgency and light strike roles with Gun pod and Rockets.*


this aircraft realli looks like Saqi of Iran...


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## fatman17

a total of 51 K-8P's have been delivered to the PAF. total requirement is 80.

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## Inception-06

Windjammer said:


> *Not sure if these have been posted before, besides point defence, the K-8 can also be deployed for counter insurgency and light strike roles with Gun pod and Rockets.*




So why Pakistan Air Force do not arm the K-8 ?


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## razgriz19

Ulla said:


> So why Pakistan Air Force do not arm the K-8 ?



because we have fighter aircrafts for that duty.
if the need arises you would see weapons on them, all PAF K-8s are capable of carrying missiles and bombs....


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## TOPGUN

Guys can anyone do a photoshop here for the our K-8 in gray schme ? i would love to see it in that thanks.


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## DANGER-ZONE

TOPGUN said:


> Guys can anyone do a photoshop here for the our K-8 in gray schme ? i would love to see it in that thanks.



Like Venezuelan grey K-8, probably you want to see an attack variant of PAF K-8.















Also from a Venezuelan mag, proposed K-8 attack variants. notice the nose of k-8k & Q-9, a Radom.

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## jamal18

Pakistan has dragged its feet over the single seat version for too long; now it looks like the Venezuelans are taking the lead.

A single seat version is long overdue.


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## Bossman

jamal18 said:


> Pakistan has dragged its feet over the single seat version for too long; now it looks like the Venezuelans are taking the lead.
> 
> A single seat version is long overdue.



Why? How does a single seat K8 fit into Pakistani defence requirements even for COIN. Trainers converted to single seat attack aircrafts like the Hawk are for air forces with limited experience is operating fast jets. We need a twin seater Jf17 than a single seat K8.

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## jamal18

Bossman said:


> Why? How does a single seat K8 fit into Pakistani defence requirements even for COIN. Trainers converted to single seat attack aircrafts like the Hawk are for air forces with limited experience is operating fast jets. We need a twin seater Jf17 than a single seat K8.



A single seat aircraft can carry more fuel, and serve as coin or cas. It is a far cheaper option than mach 2 aircraft.

There was also a posting about PAC testing a single seat version for low level air defence, again an effective deterrent against an enemy for virtually no cost.

There is also a market for single seat aircraft of this type, as the Venezuelan proposal indicates.


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## Bossman

jamal18 said:


> A single seat aircraft can carry more fuel, and serve as coin or cas. It is a far cheaper option than mach 2 aircraft.
> 
> There was also a posting about PAC testing a single seat version for low level air defence, again an effective deterrent against an enemy for virtually no cost.
> 
> There is also a market for single seat aircraft of this type, as the Venezuelan proposal indicates.




Yes, if in the Indo Pak scenario Pakistan ends up with air domination, which as you know will not happen so any slow lightly armed planes are sitting ducks and totally unsuited for CAS. Even for coin operations in mountainous environment where the enemy is equipped with reasonable AAGs a quick egress is needed after a bombing run, K8 simply doesnt have the juice. The Chinese can take care of the Venezuelan proposal, if any.


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## Chogy

> Even in coin situation in mountainous environment where the enemy is equipped with reasonable AAG a quick egress is needed after a bombing run, K8 simply doesnt have the juice.



I disagree a bit. COIN absolutely requires the ability to loiter, and slow speeds can be an advantage rather than a disadvantage. There is also the airborne FAC mission, controlling for both airstrikes and artillery.

In SEA, the USA brought the A-1 Skyraider out of mothballs because it was rugged, could lift an enormous load, could loiter for hours, and it did superb duty in Vietnam, even when confronted by vigorous ground-based gunfire.

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## Capt.Popeye

Chogy said:


> I disagree a bit. COIN absolutely requires the ability to loiter, and slow speeds can be an advantage rather than a disadvantage. There is also the airborne FAC mission, controlling for both airstrikes and artillery.
> 
> In SEA, the USA brought the A-1 Skyraider out of mothballs because it was rugged, could lift an enormous load, could loiter for hours, and it did superb duty in Vietnam, even when confronted by vigorous ground-based gunfire.



@Chogy
You've made some very pertinent points above in your post. However in the Nam era, SAMs very poorly developed and shoulder-fired SAMs did'nt exist. Now any half-baked insurgent also may have access to Stingers/equivalents.
Does that not change the scenario drastically? Your views please.


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## jamal18

The A-1 was so popular that the army wanted to bring it back into production.

The propeller engine does not attract sam's like a jet, and the twin engines are important as the aircraft will make it back home even if one engine is disabled.

A dedicated coin or cas aircraft is something the military lacks, cheaper simpler aircraft in this role releases other aircraft for more demanding roles. Its called force multiplication I believe.


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## regular

Chogy said:


> I disagree a bit. COIN absolutely requires the ability to loiter, and slow speeds can be an advantage rather than a disadvantage. There is also the airborne FAC mission, controlling for both airstrikes and artillery.
> 
> In SEA, the USA brought the A-1 Skyraider out of mothballs because it was rugged, could lift an enormous load, could loiter for hours, and it did superb duty in Vietnam, even when confronted by vigorous ground-based gunfire.


Sir! ure points are reasonable but now its 21st century...Vietnam game is 50 years old....Nowadays time matters much....we shold have aircrafts could go at low aswell as high speeds...shold be versatile in speed nature... thats where the technology kicks in....


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## Bossman

Capt.Popeye said:


> @Chogy
> You've made some very pertinent points above in your post. However in the Nam era, SAMs very poorly developed and shoulder-fired SAMs did'nt exist. Now any half-baked insurgent also may have access to Stingers/equivalents.
> Does that not change the scenario drastically? Your views please.



FATA is not NAM. The Sky Raider will be a sitting duck at the altitudes and terrain of FATA. Any attempt to dive into the vallies for a bombing or strafing run would be met by high calibre AAG firing from the peaks and sides. More precision and firepower is needed. COIN aircraft is needed but Sky Raider type of K8 are not the answer.


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## ziaulislam

i dont think so its feasible as they will susceptible to shoulder lauched SAMs which are readily available


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## Chogy

I think guys don't understand... SEA had one of the densest and most heavily defended chunks of airspace on earth. Every soldier was taught how to use small arms fire to bring down aircraft. More jets were lost (by far) to AAA and small arms, NOT SAMs.

When you say FATA is not Vietnam... true, because Vietnam was FAR more heavily armed and defended. Yet the Skyraider worked well. If the Taliban/TTP had MANPADs, they would have been used in quantity by now. They DON'T have them. They also don't have the radar-guided 57mm AAA and the like that were all over Vietnam.

In COIN, an armed K-8 would do great, a lot like the old A-37 Dragonfly. In a heavy mechanized war with India or similar, not so much.

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## TOPGUN

Chogy said:


> I think guys don't understand... SEA had one of the densest and most heavily defended chunks of airspace on earth. Every soldier was taught how to use small arms fire to bring down aircraft. More jets were lost (by far) to AAA and small arms, NOT SAMs.
> 
> When you say FATA is not Vietnam... true, because Vietnam was FAR more heavily armed and defended. Yet the Skyraider worked well. If the Taliban/TTP had MANPADs, they would have been used in quantity by now. They DON'T have them. They also don't have the radar-guided 57mm AAA and the like that were all over Vietnam.
> 
> In COIN, an armed K-8 would do great, a lot like the old A-37 Dragonfly. In a heavy mechanized war with India or similar, not so much.



Chogy ..sir how do you feel about K-8 doing coin operations ? your view plzz.


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## Tempest II

Here is an article I have had for some time. At the London conference earlier this month, I think the Italian were saying even in Libya, they would have wanted less sophisticated platforms. I believe once you had destroyed enemy air defences, and you have reasonable intel  you dont need advanced jets. I am sure even the light props can have a pod or two for flares or some integral warning system against heat-seekers.

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## jamal18

Tempest, yes my view precisely.

Chogy, in a mechanized war, if you are sending an aircraft at low altitude, it makes more sense to send a cheap K-8 or A-1, rather than a more expensive F-16.

I bet the guy who is hit by a 500Ib bomb won't be able to tell the difference.......


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## Najam Khan

K-8s can also perform CAP missions too with PL-5 missiles. They did some in 1998 during Nuclear ADA. They would be a potent platform in COIN ops, but PAF would need little modification in the design used by PAF...For A-A role, threat warning system and avionics need to be modified....who knows whats the true capability of PAF, if they can use C-130s in combat then surely K-8 can be used too


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## Capt.Popeye

NAjAM Khan said:


> K-8s can also perform CAP missions too with PL-5 missiles. They did some in 1998 during Nuclear ADA. They would be a potent platform in COIN ops, but PAF would need little modification in the design used by PAF...For A-A role, threat warning system and avionics need to be modified....who knows whats the true capability of PAF, if they can use C-130s in combat then surely K-8 can be used too



Using C-130s (or An-12s or C-47 Dakotas) or any aircraft like that just to roll off bombs from is no big deal. It was an exceedingly primitive and extremely inefficient method of warfare. Apart from disposing off some WW2- era dumb iron bombs and some sensational journalistic copy, the results were not worth talking about much.


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## TOPGUN

Capt.Popeye said:


> Using C-130s (or An-12s or C-47 Dakotas) or any aircraft like that just to roll off bombs from is no big deal. It was an exceedingly primitive and extremely inefficient method of warfare. Apart from disposing off some WW2- era dumb iron bombs and some sensational journalistic copy, the results were not worth talking about much.



Not to flame up anything but you don't even know what PAF has done to their C-130's yes its no rocket science but those so called dumb bombs do break some serious back ... hence, PAF used them in the war with India and yes it was more then worth talking about read up capt.


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## Capt.Popeye

TOPGUN said:


> Not to flame up anything but you don't even know what PAF has done to their C-130's yes its no rocket science but those so called dumb bombs do break some serious back ... hence, PAF used them in the war with India and yes it was more then worth talking about read up capt.



I know about those ops, since I read about them contemporaneously. Just as the IAF rolled off bombs from An-12s at Changa Manga and over BD. Even earlier bombs were dropped from Dakotas in J and K (1948). I read (and know) about that from all these years. They were a interesting diversion from the usual military tactics, but not much else besides.


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## Najam Khan

Capt.Popeye said:


> Using C-130s (or An-12s or C-47 Dakotas) or any aircraft like that just to roll off bombs from is no big deal. It was an exceedingly primitive and extremely inefficient method of warfare. Apart from disposing off some WW2- era dumb iron bombs and some sensational journalistic copy, the results were not worth talking about much.



Somebody only has memories of 65? I was referring to the recent use of C-130s in WoT. The laser spot tracking/reconnaissance capability was used for the first time in combat.

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## VCheng

NAjAM Khan said:


> Somebody only has memories of 65? I was referring to the recent use of C-130s in WoT. The laser spot tracking/reconnaissance capability was used for the first time in combat.



What is ideal for the WoT role is the AC-130.


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## Capt.Popeye

NAjAM Khan said:


> Somebody only has memories of 65? I was referring to the recent use of C-130s in WoT. The laser spot tracking/reconnaissance capability was used for the first time in combat.



Is the PAF now using C-130s in this role in the WOT? Or else we have nothing else but memories to fall back on.


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## Chogy

TOPGUN, I think the standard 2-seat K-8 would be a fine COIN aircraft. The guy in back works the radios, spots and communicates, the guy up front flies.

Desirable characteristics for COIN are moderate speeds, loiter, agility, ease of flight in the low-altitude environment, visibility, many others. In the past, COIN has been flown by turboprop aircraft like the OV-10 and some of the newer aircraft. But jets work as well. By definition, the threat to the aircraft in COIN ops is less than a full nation-state battle.

COIN is more than delivering weapons. Probably more important is spotting, FAC work, communications, and the like. Refit the K-8 with a new suite of radios, some rockets armed with smoke, and what it can do is spot targets, mark them with smoke, so they can in turn be targeted by F-16's.

IMO the A-10 would be one of the best COIN/FAC aircraft imaginable.

In the past, many training aircraft have been turned into FAC/COIN aircraft. The OA-37 comes to mind.

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## Bratva

Capt.Popeye said:


> Is the PAF now using C-130s in this role in the WOT? Or else we have nothing else but memories to fall back on.



PAF has modified C-130 by adding EO/IR sensors and cameras for use in WoT


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## Lighting_Fighter

Hmm My I always get stuck to this place, it's so cool and may be tv series could be made with it here it is












so sleek!

A-10 that is!


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## Inception-06

Chogy said:


> TOPGUN, I think the standard 2-seat K-8 would be a fine COIN aircraft. The guy in back works the radios, spots and communicates, the guy up front flies.
> 
> Desirable characteristics for COIN are moderate speeds, loiter, agility, ease of flight in the low-altitude environment, visibility, many others. In the past, COIN has been flown by turboprop aircraft like the OV-10 and some of the newer aircraft. But jets work as well. By definition, the threat to the aircraft in COIN ops is less than a full nation-state battle.
> 
> COIN is more than delivering weapons. Probably more important is spotting, FAC work, communications, and the like. Refit the K-8 with a new suite of radios, some rockets armed with smoke, and what it can do is spot targets, mark them with smoke, so they can in turn be targeted by F-16's.
> 
> IMO the A-10 would be one of the best COIN/FAC aircraft imaginable.
> 
> In the past, many training aircraft have been turned into FAC/COIN aircraft. The OA-37 comes to mind.








Your Idea is good and great I support it !

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## TOPGUN

Thankyou Chogy sir for the info intersting as it is i too hope PAF gets the K-8's invloved in the WOT.

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## GHOST RIDER

*K-8 at Dubai AirShow*

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## GHOST RIDER



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## khanasifm

Pakistani Armed Forces - Page 33

new 20 former us t37 with paf-?

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## maverick1977

how may K8s are there in PAF colors?


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## fatman17

maverick1977 said:


> how may K8s are there in PAF colors?



51 out of 80 delivered! - baba pl go through the thread and ye shall find the answers!

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## maverick1977

fatman17 said:


> 51 out of 80 delivered! - baba pl go through the thread and ye shall find the answers!



Fatman, thats formidable assest for PAF for COIN operations.... with IR A2A seekers, heavy rockets and 20mm gun, this beast can have a huge impact in ground operations against helis and soft targets. Mini A10 for Pakistan.

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## khanasifm

khanasifm said:


> Pakistani Armed Forces - Page 33
> 
> new 20 former us t37 with paf-?


 
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/82/T-37_021203-O-9999G-003.jpg


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## fatman17

maverick1977 said:


> Fatman, thats formidable assest for PAF for COIN operations.... with IR A2A seekers, heavy rockets and 20mm gun, this beast can have a huge impact in ground operations against helis and soft targets. Mini A10 for Pakistan.



yes it is and the s/american countries who have purchased the K-8 have done so for light COIN ops with un-guided rockets and the 20mm cannon. with the PAF it remains a 'trainer'


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## skybolt

*AWESOME image*

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## farhan_9909

ALl the picture are captured by the Uploaders

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## farhan_9909



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## DANGER-ZONE

*Dubai Air Show 2011*

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## DANGER-ZONE



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## DANGER-ZONE



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## Imran Khan

farhan_9909 said:


>



send me this image without abaya dear heheheehe

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## houshanghai

some old pics of zhuhai airshow 2010, PAF diverted K8s and JFTs to another airport

more pics link

http://top81.jschina.com.cn/top81bbs/article.php?cid=1&rootid=3600452

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## fjavaid

Y doest'nt PAF or PA uses the K8 for Light Combat Support aircraft in place of Cobras .....K8 wud be relatively more survivable than Helis ...which are prone to shoulder fired missiles ......


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## farhan_9909

can the k-8 carry such bombs that can destroy ground targets like tanks

i mean can we make it to carry clustor bombs?can we modify k-8 to this standard?


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## Dr. Strangelove

fjavaid said:


> Y doest'nt PAF or PA uses the K8 for Light Combat Support aircraft in place of Cobras .....K8 wud be relatively more survivable than Helis ...which are prone to shoulder fired missiles ......


we can use them for combat support but we them for only training


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## houshanghai

*China&#12288;Red Eagles&#12288;aerobatic team*

&#65364;&#65352;&#65368;&#12288;&#65356;&#65345;&#65358;&#65351;&#65360;&#65345;&#65358;&#65351;

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## fatman17

farhan_9909 said:


> can the k-8 carry such bombs that can destroy ground targets like tanks
> 
> i mean can we make it to carry clustor bombs?can we modify k-8 to this standard?



u have cobras and JFt's for that!


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## farhan_9909

fatman17 said:


> u have cobras and JFt's for that!



i know bt are in very limited numbers
and JFT wont specially carry out missions to destroy tanks

i think we need to modify k-8 to carry a2g weapons specially for destroying tanks and artillary

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## Dazzler

it can carry cluster bombs and other ground munitions. No modification needed

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## fatman17

farhan_9909 said:


> i know bt are in very limited numbers
> and JFT wont specially carry out missions to destroy tanks
> 
> i think we need to modify k-8 to carry a2g weapons specially for destroying tanks and artillary



so u want a slower a/c to be a sitting duck for manpads which will be accompany the armoured columns!?

---------- Post added at 10:49 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:49 AM ----------




farhan_9909 said:


> i know bt are in very limited numbers
> and JFT wont specially carry out missions to destroy tanks
> 
> i think we need to modify k-8 to carry a2g weapons specially for destroying tanks and artillary



JFT is a MR platform - AD / CAS /MS


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## MJaa

*PAF No.1 Fighter Conversion Unit Re-Equipped With K-8P Karakoram ~ Pakistan Military Review*

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## air marshal

*A formation of one FT-5 and two K-8P Advanced jet trainer aircraft presenting a fly past during the Re-equipment ceremony held at No. 1 Fighter Conversion Unit (FCU), PAF Base Mianwali on January 5, 2012.*

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## aimarraul

http://top81.jschina.com.cn/top81bbs/uploads/2012/01/18/1326877609_39332.jpg

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## Nishan_101

Although we are 25% partner in K-8 program but how much we are producing like 25% parts, I think we should produce as much parts as we can because it will be helpful for our own people and instead of supply China with the 25% air frame we be responsible in exporting the 25% of the total deal.


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## fatman17

Nishan_101 said:


> Although we are 25% partner in K-8 program but how much we are producing like 25% parts, I think we should produce as much parts as we can because it will be helpful for our own people and instead of supply China with the 25% air frame we be responsible in exporting the 25% of the total deal.



PAF supplies 25% of the air-frame and gets 25% of all export receipts of the K-8. nearly 200 examples have been exported by China and it seems to be a 'good deal' for the PAF. no need to change.


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## nomi007

soon Hongdu L-15 be the part of paf


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## fatman17

nomi007 said:


> soon Hongdu L-15 be the part of paf



how so?????


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## Windjammer

farhan_9909 said:


> can the k-8 carry such bombs that can destroy ground targets like tanks
> 
> i mean can we make it to carry clustor bombs?can we modify k-8 to this standard?

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## razgriz19

nomi007 said:


> soon Hongdu L-15 be the part of paf



why would PAF get L-15?
K-8 is enough for jet training and for fighter conversion. 
besides we will have twin-seat Jf-17s for any other advance training.


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## Aamir Hussain

K8 is a good platform for COIN ops. It can be used where precision strkies are not needed. This will save arframe/engine hours of more costly (In terms of maintenance) aircrafts in PAF. US was using prop driven and Dragonflies for COIN warfare in Vietnam.

We can do the same in FATA where we do not have a SAM threat. 

I do not know but it can also be explored for a tank busting role provided air superiority is guaranteed and SAM threat is low. 

USAF has recently upgraded their A-10 to C standard with enhanced countermeasures and netcentric capability keeping the 30 MM gatling gun intact. 

PAF can look at producing a dedicated version of K-8 with atleast a 20MM canon, (Can be in external pods) chaff/flares dispensers, ATLIS pod, and net-centric capability.

This would require upgrading the engine and strengthening the wings for more hardpoints -- for starters.

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

Not so easy------A 10 provides extreme protection to the pilot---the pilot sits in a titanium bathtub and is protected from ground fire----K8 has no such protection---so yes---it can be a good coin aircraft but at the expence of the pilot---.

If pak needs to make a decicated coin aircraft---then they need a titanium bathtub as well for this air craft.


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## untitled

So let me get this straight

PAF will use 

Mushak for basic training

K-8 for Intermediate training & for fighter conversion too ?


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## untitled

MastanKhan said:


> Hi, Not so easy------A 10 provides extreme protection to the pilot---......



I think the K-8 will be more survivable than the AH-1


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## nomi007

razgriz19 said:


> why would PAF get L-15?
> K-8 is enough for jet training and for fighter conversion.
> besides we will have twin-seat Jf-17s for any other advance training.


reason for this that soon we will get fc-20 and 5th generation jet we now also hav ef-16 block 52 for all these we need modern trainer


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## Nishan_101

I am sure that if we have put some more money on the JF-17 Block-1 like using the composite as much as possible with RD-93Bs and more over a dual version of the Block-I, which then can be used by PAF or PLAAF and other AFs as AJT/LIFT role, even gulf countries will love to buy it.


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## emotionless_teenage

razgriz19 said:


> why would PAF get L-15?
> K-8 is enough for jet training and for fighter conversion.
> besides we will have twin-seat Jf-17s for any other advance training.



LIFT/AJT role

2 seat JF-17 would be used pilot conversion to JF-17.not as advanced trainer per say


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## White Lightning

*Russian media 50 years, detailed data on arms exports to Burma *





K-8 trainer aircraft take-off training According to the Russian military Equality Network reported on February 10, the exposure on the Internet recently a called the &#8220;form of the arms trade in Myanmar, detailed disclosure of the countries in the world for half a century a variety of weapons and equipment exports to Myanmar. Traditional allies, China to Burma large supply of a variety of advanced weapons. 
Russian media said China&#8217;s exports to Myanmar a variety of weapons and equipment transactions as follows: 

according to the contract signed in 1988, China to Myanmar in 1989-1991 supply three sets of JLG &#8216;-43 search radar and The three sets of JLP was-40 air search radar; 

According to the 1989 contract, delivered in 1989-1990, 55 of 63 tanks; According to the 1989 contract, the supply in 1990, 30 69 and WZ-121 tanks and 100 units 85 and YW-531H armored personnel carriers; 

According to the 1990 contract, in 1991-1992 delivered 12 F-6 fighter; According to the 1990 contract, the delivery of 12 F-7M fighters in 1990-1991 and the use of 75 &#8220;Thunderbolt II&#8221; short-range air-to-air missiles; 

According to the 1990 contract, in 1990-1992 to supply 200 sets of the HN-5A portable surface-to-air missile system; 

According to the 1990 contract, 1991-1993 10 sets of 037-type patrol boats; export to Burma to Myanmar in 2002-2003 according to the 1991 contract, the delivery of five sets of EFR-1 fire-control radar; According to the 1991 contract, the supply in the 1998-2002 five-76 37 mm gun; in 1994 According to the 1991 contract to supply four transport -8 transport; 

According to the 1992 contract to supply 24 A-5C attack aircraft in 1997-1998; According to the 1992 contract, in 1993 the supply of 12 F-7M fighter and a set of JY-8A fire control radar; in 1992-1998 according to the 1992 contract, the delivery of 225 F-7M, and A-5C fighter &#8220;Charlie 2&#8243; short-range air-to-air missiles; According to the 1993 contract, in 1998-1999, the supply of 12 F-7M fighters and 40 &#8220;Thunderbolt II&#8221;, 40 &#8220;Thunderbolt-5B&#8221; short-range air-to-air missiles; 

According to the 1993 contract year delivered four sets of 311-type fire control radar, 50 Type 63 light tanks, 150 Type 85 armored personnel carriers YW-531H, 30 Type 63 107 mm towed rocket launchers and 24 74 &#8211; 37 mm gun; 1993 contract, for delivery in 1995 50 69 and WZ-121 tanks; 

According to the 1994 contract, in 1995-1997 the supply of 50 C-801 (CSS-N-4) anti-ship missiles and six 037-1G missile boats; According to the 1996 contract, delivered in 2004-2005, three sets of 344 fire control radar;, 12 K-8 trainer aircraft delivered in 1999, according to the 1997 contract; 

According to the 2001 contract, in 2004 delivered in 2007 eight AK-230 30 mm gun; According to the 2001 contract, delivered in 2004-2005, 30 C-801 anti-ship missiles; 2009, China and Myanmar signed 50 (It is said that 60 72) K-8 trainer aircraft, has been delivered, yet unknown.

Russian media said exports to Myanmar, in addition to China, the country of weapons of Bulgaria, Canada, Denmark, France, Germany, India, Israel, Italy, Japan, Korea, Poland, the Soviet Union/Russia Yugoslavia/Serbia, Montenegro, the United Kingdom, Ukraine and the United States. 


Source: By the Compiled: woodlands, 13 February 2012 (Military of China, force comment. and XAIRFORCES - Aviation Society)

Photo: The Myanmar Air Force K-8 Trainer Aircraft (Photo by Military of China, force comment.)


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## MastanKhan

pdf_shurtah said:


> I think the K-8 will be more survivable than the AH-1



Hi,

Nowhere close my man----the AH-1 will slaughter the enemy whereas the k8 will be fighting for its life----. They really are for two different roles----and both are a part of the package to fight a successful campaign.

You need both----it is just that the area where the pilot sits needs to have a titanium tub.


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## Nishan_101

So does PAC and the Chinese working a K-8II with composites, landing gears like the JF-17s have, seven hard points, improved avionics and new Chinese Engines/ Ukranian Engines??????


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## fjavaid

Great News form PAC / CATIC ...

*CATIC Hands over Eight K8P Trainers to Zambia Air Force*
.
On 21st March 2012, CATIC officially hands over eight K8P trainers to Zambia Air Force at Mumbwa air base in Zambia. The Zambian Air Force now operates 15 K-8 trainers.

The K-8 (Karakorum 8) can perform various daily and aerobatic fighter training as well as air-to-air and air-to-ground armament training. It is equipped with state-of-the-art engine, avionics, escape system and etc. The K-8 is of excellent performance and high reliability in a relatively low operational cost. Besides, to fulfill the wide range of requirements, K-8 serial aircrafts have been developed into a bigger family with various avionic systems and cockpits.

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## fatman17

*Zambia receives K-8 aircraft*

Helmoed-Römer Heitman Correspondent


The Zambian Air Force (ZAF) took delivery of a second batch of eight Chinese K-8P Karakoram jets on 12 April.

The aircraft were formally accepted into service at Mumbwa Air Force Base after being delivered by China National Aero-Technology Import & Export Corporation (CATIC). 

The ZAF took received the first batch of eight K-8s in 1999, which are mainly employed in the patrol and light attack roles, as well as for operational training. 

During the acceptance ceremony for the aircraft, Defence Minister Geoffrey Mwamba said that some of the older K-8s had been upgraded in China and returned to Zambia in November 2011. 

He added that Zambia is in the process of procuring additional platforms from CATIC, including helicopters. "All this underscores the wonderful relations we share [with China]," he said.

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## Edevelop



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## Manticore

Weapons and sensors that are integrated by China in K-8 source

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## fatman17

*Hongdu K-8 Karakorum Light Attack and Jet Trainer Aircraft, Pakistan*

Key Data 
&#8226;	Role Jet trainer and light attack aircraft 
&#8226;	Crew Two 
&#8226;	Country Pakistan 
&#8226;	Maiden Flight November 1990 
&#8226;	Introduced September 1994 
&#8226;	Numbers Built 500 
&#8226;	Length 11.6m 


The Karakorum-8 (K-8) is a single-engine, advanced jet trainer and light attack aircraft designed and manufactured jointly by Hongdu Aviation Industry Corporation (HAIC) of China and Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) to replace the ageing Cessna T-37 Tweet jet trainers currently in service with the Pakistan Air Force (PAF).

A Chinese version of K-8, the JiaoLian-8 (JL-8), is deployed in the People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) to replace its obsolete JJ-5 jet trainers. The K-8 was unveiled to the Pakistani public in April 2010. About 500 K-8s have been built since 1993.

Variants
The K-8 has seven variants: the K-8E, K-8P, K-8V, JL-8, L-11, K-8W and K-8VB.
The K-8E is an upgraded version, featuring modified airframe and avionics, built for the Egyptian Air Force (EAF). 

The K-8P is a Pakistani variant upgraded with a new glass cockpit.

The K-8V is an integrated flight-test simulation aircraft (IFTSA) principally used to examine designs before prototypes are built and tested.

The JL-8 is a Chinese version powered by the Ivchenko AI-25 TLK turbofan and an indigenous avionics suite.
The L-11 is an improved version of JL-8, powered by the WS-11 turbofan engine. The K-8W is an advance version of the K-8 that features a meliorated cockpit and head-up display. The K-8VB is an export version delivered to the Bolivian Air Force.

Orders and deliveries
Recent orders of K-8 include: Egypt (118), Ghana (four), Myanmar (62), Namibia (12), Pakistan (55), China (200), Sri Lanka (six), Sudan (12), Tanzania (six), Zambia (eight) and Zimbabwe (11).
Venezuela ordered 18 K-8 aircraft in 2008. The first six were delivered in March 2010 and the remaining 12 in August 2010. Venezuela ordered 18 additional K-8s worth $82m in June 2010 to bring the total orders to 36.
Bolivia ordered six K-8P aircraft worth $58m in 2009 for anti-drug operations. Deliveries are scheduled to commence in April 2011.

Design
The K-8 was designed to execute pilot training as well as light attack missions in all weather conditions. Its airframe is constructed with aluminium alloys. The aircraft was designed to incorporate a fly-by-wire (FBW) system, elevator, rudder and aileron control system.

Development
"The K-8 features a full-glass cockpit enclosed with a plastic bubble-shaped canopy to accommodate two crew members."

Pakistan and the People's Republic of China unveiled a decision in 1986 to jointly build the K-8 with Pakistan providing 25% funding for the project. Development of the K-8 started in 1987 with initial plan to deploy American technologies including Garrett turbofan engine and Collins avionics, but was cancelled in 1989 due to US political restrictions on China.

Production of four K-8 prototypes (001, 002, 003 and 004) began in January 1989. The K-8-001 took its maiden flight in November 1990, with the K-8-003 following in October 1991. The second and fourth prototypes are used for static and fatigue testing. The flight test programme was completed in 1993. The aircraft entered into service in September 1994.
A total of 15 K-8s were produced between 1992 and 1996. Six were delivered to the PAF in 1994 after which Pakistan decided to procure 75 K-8 aircraft. The first six JL-8s were handed over to the PLAAF in 1998.

Cockpit
The K-8 features a full-glass cockpit enclosed with a plastic bubble-shaped canopy to accommodate two crew members including a student pilot or instructor or an official pilot and weapons system officer. A multi-functional display (MFD) is fitted at the front and rear. The tandem seating configuration provides all-round clear visibility.
An environmental control system (ECS) offers air-conditioning and pressurisation. The emergency cockpit-escape system comprises two Martin-Baker MK-10L rocket-aided ejection seats.

Avionics
The avionics suite installed in the K-8 includes Rockwell Collins EFIS-86, Type 265 radio altimeter, Bendix/King KNR 634A voice-over recorder, UHF radios, automatic direction finder, rate of climb indicator, barometric altimeter, attitude and heading reference system, air data computer, WL-7 radio compass, KTU-709 tactical air-navigation system and marker beacon receiver.

Armaments
The K-8 is armed with a 23mm cannon pod. The aircraft has five hardpoints of which four are located under wing and one beneath the centreline fuselage section. It can carry 1,000kg of payload. The aircraft is equipped with PL-5 and PL-7 air-to-air missiles (AAM), unguided bomb, BL755 cluster bombs weighing 200-250kg, 57mm unguided rocket pods and two fuel drop-tanks.

Engines
The K-8 is powered by a single Garrett TFE731-2A-2A turbofan engine designed and built by Honeywell Aerospace. The engine generates 16.01kN of thrust. It features a single-stage high-pressure turbine, a three-stage low-pressure turbine, annular combustors, digital electronic engine control (DEEC) and a single centrifugal high-pressure compressor stage.
The length and diameter of the engine are 1.27m and 1.0m respectively. The dry weight is 333kg.

Landing gear
The tricycle type landing gear features anti-skid units and oleo-pneumatic shock-absorbers. The nose wheel is used for steering the aircraft while the main gear units retract inwards in the fuselage upon take-off.
The length and width of the main gear tyres are 0.56m and 0.16m respectively.

Performance
The K-8 can climb at a rate of 30m/s. The maximum speed is 800km/h. The range and service ceiling of the aircraft are 2,140km and 13,600m respectively. The maximum endurance is four hours 25 minutes.
The aircraft can operate under ambient temperatures between -40°C and 52°C both on the ground and in the air.

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## Windjammer

*
Size Matters*

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## HANI

Windjammer said:


> *
> Size Matters*



i think emirates just have a delivery lolllllllllllllllllll

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## Nishan_101

I wish to see that CAC and China will develop a K-8II in near future or may be they might be developing it with Composites, DSIs, Better Chinese engiens, advance avionics along with sensors and landing gear like the JF-17s has and an internal 20m.m canon. INSHA ALLAH.


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## epinephrine

Nishan_101 said:


> I wish to see that CAC and China will develop a K-8II in near future or may be they might be developing it with Composites, DSIs, Better Chinese engiens, advance avionics along with sensors and landing gear like the JF-17s has and an internal 20m.m canon. INSHA ALLAH.



all these things on a trainer air craft??wont it be wastage of money?


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## nomi007

two of 1st six which were deliver in 1994


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## Nishan_101

epinephrine said:


> all these things on a trainer air craft??wont it be wastage of money?


Not at all because of the fact that they play vital role in war times to protect airbases along with Air defence and to support ground troops as well. Making them potent will also increase there chances of being selected by countries who can't buy big fighters.


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## Beast

Nishan_101 said:


> I wish to see that CAC and China will develop a K-8II in near future or may be they might be developing it with Composites, DSIs, Better Chinese engiens, advance avionics along with sensors and landing gear like the JF-17s has and an internal 20m.m canon. INSHA ALLAH.



Hongdu L-15 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There is already a better option.


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## Nishan_101

But K-* is still cheaper with all the modification I mentioned above.


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## Beast

Nishan_101 said:


> But K-* is still cheaper with all the modification I mentioned above.



That is yr own personal opinion, right? 

Care to show me some facts? You have to understand L-15 is far far superior than K-8. I doubt any upgrade is going to bring to on par with it. Unless a major redesign which makes it more costly and basically a new thing.

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## Saquib

Is there going to be single seat version?


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## DANGER-ZONE

Beast said:


> That is yr own personal opinion, right?
> 
> Care to show me some facts? You have to understand L-15 is far far superior than K-8. I doubt any upgrade is going to bring to on par with it. Unless a major redesign which makes it more costly and basically a new thing.



I think you like L-15 too much. 
In JF-17 thread you were derailing by ceasing its sale due to L-15. Where you were comparing *Supersonic Light Multirole Fighter* with *Advance supersonic Trainer / Light Attack Aircraft*. where as CATIC has recently confirmed possible sale of at least 300 JF-17 (Including 150 -200 PAF JFTs) bursting your L-15 bubble.
and 
Now L-15 vs K-8 where K-8 deserve no future. Although *Nishan-101* was talking about some upgrades that are simply not possible but not an L-15 alternate. K-8 is a *Subsonic Advance Jet Trainer* while L-15 is *Supersonic*. 

*Here is the practical demo of your logical post.*

*Customer:* _We would like to purchase a mix of Subsonic K-8 & Supersonic JL-9 / L-15 jet trainer fleet under military modernisation plan. At least one Sqn. of each having 18 aircraft._

*Beast TheChinese Defence Minister :* _Why K-8 & JL-9, buy all L-15. It is Superior and More Advance then those two._

*Customer:* _But we need a Subsonic Trainer for pilot conversion. How come a pilot of Basic Trainer can fly Supersonic jet at once ? _

*Beast The Chinese Defence Minister :* _Nooooo ... You don't understand. L-15 is Most Superior. _

*Customer:* _But ..._ 

*Beast The Chinese Defence Minister :* 



_L-15 ...._

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## Beast

danger-zone said:


> I think you like L-15 too much.
> In JF-17 thread you were derailing by ceasing its sale due to L-15. Where you were comparing *Supersonic Light Multirole Fighter* with *Advance supersonic Trainer / Light Attack Aircraft*. where as CATIC has recently confirmed possible sale of at least 300 JF-17 (Including 150 -200 PAF JFTs) bursting your L-15 bubble.
> and
> Now L-15 vs K-8 where K-8 deserve no future. Although *Nishan-101* was talking about some upgrades that are simply not possible but not an L-15 alternate. K-8 is a *Subsonic Advance Jet Trainer* while L-15 is *Supersonic*.
> 
> *Here is the practical demo of your logical post.*
> 
> *Customer:* _We would like to purchase a mix of Subsonic K-8 & Supersonic JL-9 / L-15 jet trainer fleet under military modernisation plan. At least one Sqn. of each having 18 aircraft._
> 
> *Beast TheChinese Defence Minister :* _Why K-8 & JL-9, buy all L-15. It is Superior and More Advance then those two._
> 
> *Customer:* _But we need a Subsonic Trainer for pilot conversion. How come a pilot of Basic Trainer can fly Supersonic jet at once ? _
> 
> *Beast The Chinese Defence Minister :* _Nooooo ... You don't understand. L-15 is Most Superior. _
> 
> *Customer:* _But ..._
> 
> *Beast The Chinese Defence Minister :*
> 
> 
> 
> _L-15 ...._



LOL... Who is the customer? Each customer orders how many? Block 2 or Block 1? When will it be delivered?

Those announce news of 300 JF-17 expected to sold is as good as zero. Hahaha..

Probably it will, 5 years later when L-15 captured most market.


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## Windjammer



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## dexter

PAF Sherdils.

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## fatman17

PAF Flying Training 


By F/L Alastair Hawes 



When The PAF was formed in 1948 its flying training was basad on that of the RAF's. Many similarities still remain. Cadets begin training at PAF Risalpur at the Air Force Academy which was modelled on the RAF Cranwell College for cadet entrants. Elementary flying training lasts for 18 months and starts on the Saab MFI-17B Mushshak and basic flying training is completed on the T-37. Cadets are awarded their wings and commissioned at the same time. They then move to PAF Mianwali for the Fighter Conversion Unit (FCU) and Operational Conversion Unit (OCU). The FCU serves the same function as an AFTS (Advanced Flying Training School) and the OCU the same function as the RAF's Tactical Weapons Unit (TWU) at RAF Brawdy and RAF Chivenor. Student pilots spend five months/85 hours at the FCU flying the FT-5 and another five months/75 hours flying the FT-6 at the OCU. 

PAF training is almost solely geared to producing fighter pilots, although a few pilots may be streamed to fly transport aircraft and helicopters. On completion of the OCU, most will go on to fly the F-6 (-19) or A-5 for their first tour. After two to three years pilots may remain on the same type or go on to fly the F-1 6A, the Mirage III/V, the F-7P Skybolt, or they become instructors. 

The Mushshak performs the same role as the Bulldog/Chipmunk. The aircraft has the same engine as the Bulldog and similar handling qualities and performance. It is still being built at low cost at the Kamra Aeronautical Centre by a factory supplied by Saab of Sweden. The T-37 has the same role as the Jet Provost, although its performance is somewhere between the JP3 and the JP5. It is simple to operate and pleasant to fly. The FT-5 and FT-6 have the same roles as the Hawk T.1 and T.1A. The FT-5 has basic instrumentation and avionics, good turning performance and stability, but is less responsive in handling than the Hawk. It has a much shorter range and a slower climb rate. The FT-6 has a better performance, is a demanding aircraft to fly and a good test of piloting skills. 

The PAF train about 50 pilots a year. Many thousands of applicants are screened and graded at joint Army, Navy and Air Force selection centres all over the country. This process lasts one day. Successful applicants attend a five day course at one of three aircrew selection centres. Subsequently they have to pass a four-day medical board. 

After spending two years at the Academy, cadet pilots fly 10 hours on the Mushshak to test their piloting aptitude. If considered satisfactory, the cadets then have to wait another two years before they can begin their flying training. If a pilot should fail the course he will almost certainly be retained by the Air Force for employment in another flying or ground role. 

Compared to European air forces, the PAF recruits its pilots at a very young age (it varies from 12 to 16 years of age). Recruits come from a variety of backgrounds, some may come from distant villages and only possess a rudimentary understanding of mechanical objects. The Air Academy at PAF Risalpur aims to give all its cadets a good grounding in science, military and officer training, discipline, general education, and flying. All students have to learn English as soon as they arrive. During training, they are not allowed to speak Urdu, the national language, or any other dialects. Cadets all graduate with a degree, the Academy being affiliated to a University. Flying training does not begin until alter four years at the Academy. At BFTS the students are still treated as cadets and spend a lot of time studying for their degrees. 

Training in Pakistan at EFTS and BFTS follows the same lines as the RAF although there are some differences in emphasis mainly due to climate. There is not a great deal of instrument flying training, as the weather is generally clear. Some training stations do not have radar and in the north of the country there are mountains over 20,000ft high in the local area and understandably, the PAF is reticent about operating from training stations in cloudy weather. 

The wind is rarely as strong as in the UK so the teaching of circuits and Practice Forced Landings (PFLs) is simpler. Students are taught to achieve particular ground patterns at certain key heights in order to fly successful circuits. Circuit patterns and teaching have been influenced by the American flying training system following the purchase of the T-37 twenty years ago. There is also less low level flying training although the PAF does have an important ground attack role, their pilots will probably have to operate in a simpler low level environment, in terms of weather and threat, than in Europe. 

The FCU and OCU are based at PAF Mianwali which has an excellent weather factor and a large local flying training area. Courses are aimed to produce single-seat fighter pilots after 10 months of training. There is a greater amount of formation flying with considerably less low level navigation training and slightly less weapon firing at the OCU than at an RAF TWU, and no air-to*-air gunnery. Students do not have to fly many sorties as leader and are not expected to plan, brief and lead composite sorties. Throughout the course students still have academic studies, English lessons, parades and PT. All Instructor Pilots have to have a minimum of 350 hours on fighters and maintain an operational role at the OCU. 

It takes about 6 and 1/2 years to train a PAF pilot from joining the Academy to his acceptance on a front line Squadron. Overall the failure rate is about 40%, slightly more than the RAF. 

The primary role of the SIF (School of Instructor Flying), based at PAF Risalpur, is to train Air Force, Army and Navy instructors. Some instructors from friendly nations are also trained including Sri Lanka, Uganda, Turkey, Malaysia and various Middle Eastern Muslim states. Considerable emphasis is given to theory, briefs and lectures. The trainee instructors fly the Mushshak or T-37, and those posted to the FCU have to complete the basic instructional course. A secondary role of SIF is pilot standardisation and recategorisation. The flying rate at SIF and BFTS is high, with instructors achieving 40 to 45 hours a month. 

In common with most air forces there are some problems with relatively low pay and consequent retention problems. For example, the national airline PIA will pay about ten times the salary of a PAF pilot. There is time promotion to Squadron Leader after 9-10 years but no equivalent of the RAF specialist aircrew system. In Pakistan it would not be so acceptable for an experienced pilot to be working under a more junior officer without a loss of pride. 

The PAF training aircraft are well suited to their tasks. The Mushshak aircraft are still being manufactured both for the PAF and in the hope of obtaining export orders. The T-37 is about 20 years old. Its life could be extended for another 20 years, however the PAF is considering replacing it with the K-8 jet trainer. The Chinese supplied the FT-5 and FT-6 at very low cost in the 1970s and whilst they are basic in design they achieve their training task quite cheaply and satisfactorily. The Hawk might be considered as a replacement for the advanced trainers but it would be expensive even though it could have a useful secondary operational role. 

Overall the PAF are a highly professional air force and this is reflected in their high standards of instruction and flying training. 

(The Author's views in no way express those of the Ministry of Defence). 

_view by a visiting RAF pilot in 2002._

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## Abu Zolfiqar

wow. very useful article thanks for sharing SIR


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## TOPGUN

Thx for sharing Fatman .. this is way PAF is one of the best and nothing less.


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## Imran Khan

risalpur home of K-8s

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## fatman17

*Short History of the Nanchang K-8 (JL-8) Karakorum advanced trainer*

In May 1987 China and Pakistan inked a deal to co-develop and co-produce an advanced jet trainer/light combat aircraft intended mainly for export. Pakistan, which has been buying Chinese weapons since the early 1970s, joined the project because it needed a replacement for the Pakistan Air Force Cessna T-37 trainers, which were running out of service life, and for the obsolescent Chengdu FT-S trainers.

The Nanchang Aircraft Manufacturing Co. (NAMC) became the main contractor In the program, which was announced for the world to hear at the 1987 Paris Air Show under the designation L-8. Initially the Pakistani work share in the program was limited to 12% but later increased to 25%. The Pakistan Aeronautical Co (PAC) at Kamra was responsible for manufacturing the rear fuselage and the tail unit.

Re designated K&#8226;8 and named Karakorum after a mountain ridge separating the two Countries, the aircraft shared the general arrangement of such trainers as the Czechoslovak Aero L-39 Albatros, the Spanish CASA C-101, Aviojet and the Romanian AR-99 Soirr (to which it bore a particularly strong resemblance). 

The trainee and the instructor sat in a vertically staggered tandem arrangement on Martin Baker Mk-101, zero-zero ejection seats under a common sideways hinged canopy. The un swept trapezoidal wing were low-set and the conventional tail unit comprised a gently swept vertical tail with a large root fillet and un swept tail planes; the fin and rudder were made of composites. The landing gear comprised a forward-retracing nose unit and main units retracting inward into the fuselage.

The engine - a single Garrett Air Research (now Honeywell) TFE-731-2A non-after burning turbofan rated at 1.633 kgp (3,600 Ibst) &#8211; was housed in the rear fuselage, breathing through large air intakes above the wing the roots.

Two or four pylons could be fitted under the wings for carrying various external stores, including 12-round pods with 57&#8226;mm FFARs, bombs of up to 250 kg (551Ibs) caliber and 250-litre (55 Imp gal) drop tanks. If necessary a 23-mm Cannon could be installed in a conformal pod beneath the cockpits. The aircraft was fitted with western avionics, including Bendix/Kng navigation and communications suites, a Rockwell Collins EFIS-86T flight instrumentation system, and an Allied Signal environmental control system.

NAMC started design work in June 1987. Construction of the first prototype began in1989; wearing its c/n (K8-001) as the serial the machine made its maiden flight on 21st November 1990 with Ge Shun at the controls.

The second prototype (K8-003) entered flight tests on 18th October 1991, followed by the third prototype (K8-004); the second airframe built was the static test article. All three prototypes wore the Chinese and Pakistani flags on the tail to underscore the program's international status.

The first production example (1001, c/n -320101) was retained by NAMC as a demonstrator. 

On 9th April 1994 the PAF placed an initial order for six K-8s which were formally accepted on 21st September and delivered to Pakistan on 10th November that year; the evaluation program was comp leted in August 1995, the trainers subsequently entering service With the PAF Flying Academy at Risalpur. Another six were delivered to the PLAAF for evaluation. This was due in no small part to pressure from Pakistan which insisted that China should put the K-8 into PLAAF service and thus ensure continued production.

Apart from Pakistan (39 aircraft delivered), the K-8 has been exported to Ghana (four), Myanmar (12), Sri Lanka (six), Namibia (four), Zambia (eight) and Egypt (see K-8E below)

The aircraft was 11.6m (38 ft. 1/2 in) long, including the nose pitot and 4.21m (13 ft. ½ in) High; the wing span was 9.63 m (31 ft 71/2 in) and the wing area was 17.02 m2 (183.2 sq.ft); The K-8 hd an empty weight of 2,757 kg (5,078 Ib) and a maximum TOW of 4,332 kg (9,550 Ib) with external stores, including an internal fuel load of 780 kg(1,720 Ib) and a maximum external stores load of 943 Kg (2,080 Ib). The aircraft could reach a top speed of 800 Kmh (496 mph) and a service ceiling of 13,600m (44,620 ft), climbing at a maximum rate of 30 ft/sec (5,900 ft.min). Range was 1.560 km (969 miles) on internal fuel only and 2, 140 km (1,329 miles) with drop tank; endurance was 3 hours 12 minutes and 4 hours 12 minutes respectively. The K-8 had a take-off run at 440m (1,445 ft) and a landing run of 530m (1,740 m). The airframe was stressed for +7.33/- 3Gs.

K-8P advanced trainer

K-8P is the designation of the Pakistan Air Force version.

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## srilankan

which year was this manufactured?

nice info fatman, thanks

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## Manticore

*K8-Karakorum*

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## IceCold

ANTIBODY said:


> *K8-Karakorum*



The last pic? is this a sidewinder or a PL-5?

Never knew PAF uses K8 for ADA role.


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## LiberalAtheist

are they available for private ownership or for military purposes only?


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## fatman17

IceCold said:


> The last pic? is this a sidewinder or a PL-5?
> 
> Never knew PAF uses K8 for ADA role.



never used in anger!

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## satishkumarcsc

IceCold said:


> The last pic? is this a sidewinder or a PL-5?
> 
> Never knew PAF uses K8 for ADA role.



Might be a practice round.

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## DANGER-ZONE

IceCold said:


> The last pic? is this a sidewinder or a PL-5?
> 
> Never knew PAF uses K8 for ADA role.


 


satishkumarcsc said:


> Might be a practice round.



Marta Magic R550.

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## Arsalan

*Karakoram-8 Armament*
*Guns:* 1× 23 mm cannon pod (mounted on centreline hard point)
*Hard points:* 5, total capacity 1,000 kg (2,205 lb) external fuel and ordnance:
4× under-wing, capacity 250 kg each
1× under-fuselage (23 mm cannon pod mount)
*Rockets:* 57 mm unguided rocket pods, capacity 24 rounds (2 x pods with 12 rounds each)
*Air-to-air missiles:* PL-5, PL-7
*Bombs: *200 kg, 250 kg unguided bomb, BL755 cluster bomb
*Others:*
2× 80 gal fuel drop-tanks mounted on outboard under-wing hard points

*K8 carrying Rocket Pod*





*Gun Pod under Fuselage, just right of landing gear!
Rocket Pods under both Wings*





*Rocket Pod*

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## krash

^^^ PLAAF not PAF. It has the Chinese scheme not ours.

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## Arsalan

krash said:


> ^^^ PLAAF not PAF. It has the Chinese scheme not ours.



Yes it is Chinese!
Apart from color scheme you can also see the flag/insignia just by the tail wings..




i noted it but perhaps typed PAF out of excitement!! 
anyways, thanks for pointing!! Corrected.

*However, please note that PAF K8 also carry same armament!*

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## krash

arsalanaslam123 said:


> Yes it is Chinese!
> Apart from color scheme you can also see the flag/insignia just by the tail wings..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i noted it but perhaps typed PAF out of excitement!!
> anyways, thanks for pointing!! Corrected.
> 
> *However, please note that PAF K8 also carry same armament!*



Yup and you can also fit a cannon/gun pod under the belly (visible on this particular picture). The same place where we see the smoke canisters on our birds.


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## Arsalan

krash said:


> Yup and you can also fit a cannon/gun pod under the belly (visible on this particular picture). The same place where we see the smoke canisters on our birds.


Yes, this is the Gun pod i mentioned in earlier post!!! A 23mm cannon!
the bird can carry decent stuff, as explained in following image by *Anti-Body*:




can perform a decent CAS role!

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## Windjammer



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## Nishan_101

fatman17 said:


> PAF Flying Training
> 
> 
> By F/L Alastair Hawes
> 
> 
> 
> When The PAF was formed in 1948 its flying training was basad on that of the RAF's. Many similarities still remain. Cadets begin training at PAF Risalpur at the Air Force Academy which was modelled on the RAF Cranwell College for cadet entrants. Elementary flying training lasts for 18 months and starts on the Saab MFI-17B Mushshak and basic flying training is completed on the T-37. Cadets are awarded their wings and commissioned at the same time. They then move to PAF Mianwali for the Fighter Conversion Unit (FCU) and Operational Conversion Unit (OCU). The FCU serves the same function as an AFTS (Advanced Flying Training School) and the OCU the same function as the RAF's Tactical Weapons Unit (TWU) at RAF Brawdy and RAF Chivenor. Student pilots spend five months/85 hours at the FCU flying the FT-5 and another five months/75 hours flying the FT-6 at the OCU.
> 
> PAF training is almost solely geared to producing fighter pilots, although a few pilots may be streamed to fly transport aircraft and helicopters. On completion of the OCU, most will go on to fly the F-6 (-19) or A-5 for their first tour. After two to three years pilots may remain on the same type or go on to fly the F-1 6A, the Mirage III/V, the F-7P Skybolt, or they become instructors.
> 
> The Mushshak performs the same role as the Bulldog/Chipmunk. The aircraft has the same engine as the Bulldog and similar handling qualities and performance. It is still being built at low cost at the Kamra Aeronautical Centre by a factory supplied by Saab of Sweden. The T-37 has the same role as the Jet Provost, although its performance is somewhere between the JP3 and the JP5. It is simple to operate and pleasant to fly. The FT-5 and FT-6 have the same roles as the Hawk T.1 and T.1A. The FT-5 has basic instrumentation and avionics, good turning performance and stability, but is less responsive in handling than the Hawk. It has a much shorter range and a slower climb rate. The FT-6 has a better performance, is a demanding aircraft to fly and a good test of piloting skills.
> 
> The PAF train about 50 pilots a year. Many thousands of applicants are screened and graded at joint Army, Navy and Air Force selection centres all over the country. This process lasts one day. Successful applicants attend a five day course at one of three aircrew selection centres. Subsequently they have to pass a four-day medical board.
> 
> After spending two years at the Academy, cadet pilots fly 10 hours on the Mushshak to test their piloting aptitude. If considered satisfactory, the cadets then have to wait another two years before they can begin their flying training. If a pilot should fail the course he will almost certainly be retained by the Air Force for employment in another flying or ground role.
> 
> Compared to European air forces, the PAF recruits its pilots at a very young age (it varies from 12 to 16 years of age). Recruits come from a variety of backgrounds, some may come from distant villages and only possess a rudimentary understanding of mechanical objects. The Air Academy at PAF Risalpur aims to give all its cadets a good grounding in science, military and officer training, discipline, general education, and flying. All students have to learn English as soon as they arrive. During training, they are not allowed to speak Urdu, the national language, or any other dialects. Cadets all graduate with a degree, the Academy being affiliated to a University. Flying training does not begin until alter four years at the Academy. At BFTS the students are still treated as cadets and spend a lot of time studying for their degrees.
> 
> Training in Pakistan at EFTS and BFTS follows the same lines as the RAF although there are some differences in emphasis mainly due to climate. There is not a great deal of instrument flying training, as the weather is generally clear. Some training stations do not have radar and in the north of the country there are mountains over 20,000ft high in the local area and understandably, the PAF is reticent about operating from training stations in cloudy weather.
> 
> The wind is rarely as strong as in the UK so the teaching of circuits and Practice Forced Landings (PFLs) is simpler. Students are taught to achieve particular ground patterns at certain key heights in order to fly successful circuits. Circuit patterns and teaching have been influenced by the American flying training system following the purchase of the T-37 twenty years ago. There is also less low level flying training although the PAF does have an important ground attack role, their pilots will probably have to operate in a simpler low level environment, in terms of weather and threat, than in Europe.
> 
> The FCU and OCU are based at PAF Mianwali which has an excellent weather factor and a large local flying training area. Courses are aimed to produce single-seat fighter pilots after 10 months of training. There is a greater amount of formation flying with considerably less low level navigation training and slightly less weapon firing at the OCU than at an RAF TWU, and no air-to*-air gunnery. Students do not have to fly many sorties as leader and are not expected to plan, brief and lead composite sorties. Throughout the course students still have academic studies, English lessons, parades and PT. All Instructor Pilots have to have a minimum of 350 hours on fighters and maintain an operational role at the OCU.
> 
> It takes about 6 and 1/2 years to train a PAF pilot from joining the Academy to his acceptance on a front line Squadron. Overall the failure rate is about 40%, slightly more than the RAF.
> 
> The primary role of the SIF (School of Instructor Flying), based at PAF Risalpur, is to train Air Force, Army and Navy instructors. Some instructors from friendly nations are also trained including Sri Lanka, Uganda, Turkey, Malaysia and various Middle Eastern Muslim states. Considerable emphasis is given to theory, briefs and lectures. The trainee instructors fly the Mushshak or T-37, and those posted to the FCU have to complete the basic instructional course. A secondary role of SIF is pilot standardisation and recategorisation. The flying rate at SIF and BFTS is high, with instructors achieving 40 to 45 hours a month.
> 
> In common with most air forces there are some problems with relatively low pay and consequent retention problems. For example, the national airline PIA will pay about ten times the salary of a PAF pilot. There is time promotion to Squadron Leader after 9-10 years but no equivalent of the RAF specialist aircrew system. In Pakistan it would not be so acceptable for an experienced pilot to be working under a more junior officer without a loss of pride.
> 
> The PAF training aircraft are well suited to their tasks. The Mushshak aircraft are still being manufactured both for the PAF and in the hope of obtaining export orders. The T-37 is about 20 years old. Its life could be extended for another 20 years, however the PAF is considering replacing it with the K-8 jet trainer. The Chinese supplied the FT-5 and FT-6 at very low cost in the 1970s and whilst they are basic in design they achieve their training task quite cheaply and satisfactorily. The Hawk might be considered as a replacement for the advanced trainers but it would be expensive even though it could have a useful secondary operational role.
> 
> Overall the PAF are a highly professional air force and this is reflected in their high standards of instruction and flying training.
> 
> (The Author's views in no way express those of the Ministry of Defence).
> 
> _view by a visiting RAF pilot in 2002._


 
PAC should also have looked at creating these planes with similar engines on Super Mushak with Three Blade rotors and two engines on the wings for six to seven seat plane that can be utilized by PAF, PAA or PN(MSA) for survellance and other purposes as well and for training too.

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## air marshal

*Aviation Art Prints*





*Sherdils - Formation Aerobatics Team, PAF*

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## India defense

Nice looking plane


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## fatman17

*Fun in the Sun*


Barry Vissar reports




Performing for the first time outside its home country was the Lion Hearts (Sherdil) T-37 team from Pakistan. Made up of highly-qualified Air Force instructor pilots, it usually performs only four times a year in Pakistan. Although the ageing Cessna T-37 might be a little underpowered for a display team, the Sherdils put on a great display.

Pakistan brought two Karakorum 8 (K-8) Advanced Jet Trainers to Al Ain. Both were previous visitors to the UAE, judging by the &#8216;Dubai Air Show 2005&#8217; titles below the cockpit. Jointly developed by China&#8217;s Nanchang Aircraft Manufacturing Company (CNAMC) and Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), the K-8 will eventually replace the T-37 used for pilot training in Pakistan.

Sherdils and Karakorum:
Displaying at Al Ain for the second time was a Pakistan Air Force Karakorum 8 (K-8) Advanced Jet Trainer from the Flying Training College, based at Risalpur, in the north of the country. Two aircraft made it to the show, one flying each day. Due to the relatively small size of the K-8 and the vast open spaces of the desert, it seemed as if the pilots were displaying their aircraft miles away. Nevertheless, the display was perfectly flown and a joy to watch.

The Sherdils (Lion Heart) display team, in eight small, ageing and underpowered Cessna T-37s, were without doubt the most unusual team visiting Al Ain &#8211; &#8216;unusual&#8217; as this was the first time they had flown outside Pakistan, where they perform four displays annually. The Pakistan Air Force still uses around 40 T-37s, though these will be replaced by the K-8 in due course. 

The T-37s and K-8s routed from Risalpur to Karachi (for a fuel stop) before crossing the Arabian Sea to Muscat in Oman &#8211; a long hop before the short flight to Al Ain.

Led by Wg Cdr Munawar, the Sherdils carried out a ten-minute display incorporating various colours of smoke. The T-37s are not equipped with a tank and pressure system for the smoke as standard: a canister containing the equipment and the dye is strapped into the seat beside the pilot. However, the system seems to work well judging from the colour produced. In the first couple of days, the team performed with all eight aircraft, but technical problems reduced this to six during the remaining days of the show. The Sherdils may not operate a very exciting aircraft, but they put on a great display.
AFM

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## turbo charged

when PAF pilots flied to Muscat oman from karachi in military planes....did they received a visa and were they carrying the passports?or if an airforce pilot flies from an airbase and lands on another country's airbase on invitation....he dosent needs passport and visa??


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## Windjammer



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## Nishan_101

Windjammer said:


>



After the assembly of 50-70 K-8Ps at PAC we should look towards developing a K-8 Block-II with China on *PAC(25%) and China(75%)* basis to have new improved engines from Russia(http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...-staff-coas-general-ashfaq-parvez-kayani.html), Composite, improvements in air-frame like DSI, Internal Canon and refueling probe.


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## Nishan_101

I think the 12 K-8 received from China directly are being used as Sherdils for performance.


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## Bossman

Nishan_101 said:


> I think the 12 K-8 received from China directly are being used as Sherdils for performance.



All PAF K8s are of Chinese origin. A final K8 assembly was never set up at Kamra. PAC produces some sub assemblies for the K8 which are sent to China for final assembly with other components of Chinese origin and an American engine.


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## Najam Khan

Bossman said:


> All PAF K8s are of Chinese origin. A final K8 assembly was never set up at Kamra. PAC produces some sub assemblies for the K8 which are sent to China for final assembly with other components of Chinese origin and an American engine.



One of the reason is that their was no need K-8 for assembly lines. PAC has 25% share in K-8. Plus, AMF has acquired small batch production machines which will be have their role in near future.

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## Windjammer



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## giant panda



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## Windjammer



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## Imran Khan

from facebook damn cool 6 K-8s takeoff 



[video]http://www.facebook.com/v/10151052249806534[/video]

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## Inception-06

Pakistan K-8 should be armed with air to ground weapons and and join the Operations in FATA it would be a good training for the Pilots !


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## skybolt

Imran Khan said:


> from facebook damn cool 6 K-8s takeoff
> 
> 
> 
> [video]http://www.facebook.com/v/10151052249806534[/video]



That's my favorite Music Genre...


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## fatman17

Ulla said:


> Pakistan K-8 should be armed with air to ground weapons and and join the Operations in FATA it would be a good training for the Pilots !



its an option which has been considered and lets leave it at that. COIN remains the main focus of the PAA.


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## Inception-06

fatman17 said:


> its an option which has been considered and lets leave it at that. COIN remains the main focus of the PAA.



could you plz explain that near, I did not get the point ! Thx a lot


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## Najam Khan

Ulla said:


> could you plz explain that near, I did not get the point ! Thx a lot



It is already discussed in detail. Please go through following thread, especially posts on page 3 and 5.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...as-aircraft-needs-pakistan-army-aviation.html


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## Nishan_101

So now how many does we have??? I think we should place an order for about 70 of these...


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## Edevelop

Not sure if this already happening or planned but can K-8 be upgraded lets say to have better avionics, engine, plus adding IFR Probe ?

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## fatman17

cb4 said:


> Not sure if this already happening or planned but can K-8 be upgraded lets say to have better avionics, engine, plus adding IFR Probe ?



PAF K8's already have western avionics and powerplant.

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## Windjammer



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## Tehmasib




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## giant panda

The maiden flight ceremony of K-8 trainer co-developed by china and pakistan on January 1991.

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## dexter



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## Nishan_101

I wish that PAC will assemble the k-8 till 55-70 have been reached then worked with Chinese on its block-II version with much improvement in every way.... and then produce 70 of them to replace older K-8s in the inventory.


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## Windjammer



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## darkinsky

Windjammer said:


>



what place is this?

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## Windjammer

darkinsky said:


> what place is this?



PAF Academy Risalpur.

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## Gentelman

Ulla said:


> Pakistan K-8 should be armed with air to ground weapons and and join the Operations in FATA it would be a good training for the Pilots !



can't risk lifes of civilians...
we need pin point accuracy there...which K-8s are unable to achieve..
their payload is also not enough and they have not credible avionics...
they are just meant for training.....

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## Nishan_101

It was and its still better for the PAF to put the 12 K-8s that they gained directly from CHINA in Sherdil Team and produce 50 K-8s for CCS and continue development with China on K-8 Block-IIs with composites, improved design with landing gears like JF-17s and DSI, better avionics with Radar and FLIR and better engine with IFRP.


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## fatman17

Nishan_101 said:


> It was and its still better for the PAF to put the 12 K-8s that they gained directly from CHINA in Sherdil Team and produce 50 K-8s for CCS and continue development with China on K-8 Block-IIs with composites, improved design with landing gears like JF-17s and DSI, better avionics with Radar and FLIR and better engine with IFRP.



your wish is our command.....!!!!!!

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## Nishan_101

fatman17 said:


> your wish is our command.....!!!!!!



So it means that you are agreed on it. MASHA ALLAH.

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## razgriz19

Nishan_101 said:


> So it means that you are agreed on it. MASHA ALLAH.



No, I think he was just being sarcastic....

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## fatman17

*Hongdu JL-8 / K-8 Karakorum Light Attack / Advanced Trainer (1994)*


Authored By Staff Writer | Last Updated: 5/6/2011


The Hongdu JL-8 has been in operation service since 1994 and can be used as both an advanced jet trainer and light strike platform.

The Hongdu JL-8 / K-8 is a series of indigenous Chinese lightweight jet-powered aircraft. The JL-8 is a dual-role platform that allows for advanced pilot jet training while also retaining inherent combat capabilities for the light strike role. While the JL-8 is produced by Hongdu Aviation Industry Corporation, its origins lay in a design from the well-established Nanchang firm. The Pakistani government, which currently enjoys a close working relationship with China, is involved in the production of a similar variant known as the K-8 "Karakorum" - these being manufactured under the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex label. 

Operators of the JL-8 / K-8 also include Bolivia, Ghana, Myanmar, Namibia, Sri Lanka, Sudan, Tanzania, Venezuela, Zambia and Zimbabwe. To date, at least 500 examples of this aircraft have been delivered to various budget-conscious customers around the globe, either those looking to upgrade to a more modern jet trainer or those looking for a relatively inexpensive combat platform.

The initial JL-8 prototype was made public in 1989 with first flight being recorded on November 21st, 1990 and operational service being attained on September 21st, 1994. The original internal systems of the JL-8 series were intended to sport American-based technology but the deteriorating political ties between the United States and China following Tiananmen Square (1989) formally disallowed such use. As a result, the aircraft was redrawn to include available non-American parts.

Some, therefore, question the inherent reliability of the JL-8 family as several notable - and fatal - crashed have since occurred. Regardless, the aircraft has maintained a growing foothold on the world market, particularly for national air forces needing a modern jet trainer for the instruction of a new generation of airmen with the combat capabilities inherent in the JL-8 family essentially coming as a "bonus" to these customers. As of this writing, China maintains the largest fleet of JL-8s with some 400 aircraft on the books. Egypt has also received (and produced) at least 118 aircraft of which at least forty of these were constructed in local facilities, the rest being manufactured from Chinese supplied "kits".

"JL-8" is used to signify the Chinese Air Force versions that fit a Ukrainian Ivchenko AI-25 TLK turbofan engine. The avionics package is, however, decidedly Chinese in origin. The "L-11" is based on the JL-8 but instead fitted with a Chinese locally-produced version of the Ivchenko AI-25 TLK known as the "WS-11". The "JL-8W" (also known as the "K-8W") is also based on the JL-8 but features an upgraded cockpit and meant for export to the Bolivian Air Force.

Another Bolivian-destined product is the similar "JL-8VB" (also known as the "K8VB"). All of the export models are delivered with the Honeywell TFE731-2A turbofan engine as opposed to the more powerful Chinese WS-11 series turbofan.

The basic "K-8 Karakorum" designation is used to mark initial export production models, these fitting a lesser Garrett/Honeywell TFE731-2A geared turbofan engine of 3,600lbs thrust. The Garrett TFE731 series is a product of Honeywell Aerospace and Garrett AiResearch first fielded in 1970. These engines have proven successful in the corporate jet arena to which some 11,000 power plants of the type have since been produced, collectively logging millions of flight hours since their inception. The power plant supplies the K-8 with a top speed of just less than 500 miles per hour (approximately Mach 0.75) and an operational range of about 1,400 miles. Her service ceiling is listed at over 42,500 feet. As such, the JL-8 is categorized as subsonic aircraft, meaning she cannot travel at over the speed of sound (Mach 1), a typical design limitation of jet-powered trainer mounts.

The "K-8E" is an Egyptian export model with a revised avionics suite to suite Egyptian Air Force requirement. 

The "K-8P" is a Pakistani Air Force model also with a revised avionics suite and a modern all-glass cockpit arrangement. The "K-8V" has been consistently used as a developmental airframe for the testing of various system arrangements for future production consideration.

Outwardly, the JL-8 and its series variants maintain a very conventional design appearance yet bears an uncanny resemblance to the BAe Hawk, also utilized by the United States military as the McDonnell Douglas / Boeing T-45 Goshawk. The two-seat cockpit is situated at the front of the short, slim fuselage with the two crew members seated in tandem under a long-running, single-piece glass canopy hinged to the right hand side. In the trainer role, the student takes the forward cockpit while the instructor is seated in the rear. In the combat role, the two operators share the workload to decrease flight stresses for each pilot. A dual control configuration means that the instructor can take control of the aircraft when need be. Martin-Baker ejection seats are allotted for each cockpit position. The cockpit sits behind a short, pointed nose assembly lacking any known radar installations. The fuselage also houses applicable avionics, fuel and the engine (fuel is also housed in each wing). A fuselage spine restricts rearward visibility, particularly for the rear-seated crewmember. Wings are low-set monoplane installations and straight in their design with clipped tips. The empennage is short and sports a single vertical tail fin atop the engine exhaust duct and a pair of horizontal tail planes is situated at the extreme rear of the jet, just under and behind the base of the vertical tail fin. The engine is aspirated by a pair of smallish, oval-type intake vents to either side of the rear cockpit. The undercarriage is a conventional tricycle arrangement with a pair of single-wheeled main legs and a single-wheeled nose leg.

While primarily utilized as a trainer with its customers, modern advanced trainer aircraft such as the JL-8, largely for economical and marketing reasons, can be converted into bona fide warring platforms with some modifications to its base configuration.

When in the armed role, the standard armament consists of a 23mm cannon fitted to an external gun pod along the fuselage centerline. This can be supplemented with external provisions (or replaced altogether) with installation of munitions across four additional under-wing hard-points. This allows the JL-8 to mount conventional drop bombs, laser-guided bombs, air-to-air missiles, air-to-surface missiles, unguided rocket pods and fuel drop tanks - the latter to help extend her operational ranges. 

These arrangements allow the JL-8 series to undertake Close-Air Support (CAS) roles in direct support of allied ground force actions. After combat, the same airframe can then be reverted back to its noncombat training role without loss.

In Pakistani service, the K-8 has been noted for its use in the "Sherdils" aerial acrobatics display team of the Pakistan Air Force. The aircraft has been in this role since the middle part of 2010.

Text ©2003-2013 Military Factory - Military Weapons: Cataloging aircraft, tanks, vehicles, artillery, ships and guns through history. 

Specifications for the Hongdu JL-8 / K-8 Karakorum Light Attack / Advanced Trainer

Country of Origin: China
Manufacturer: Hongdu - China / Pakistan Aeronautical Complex - Pakistan
Initial Year of Service: 1994
Production: 525
Focus Model: Hongdu K-8 (Karakorum)
Crew: 2
Length: 38.06ft (11.6m)
Width: 31.59ft (9.63m)
Height: 13.81ft (4.21m)
Weight (Empty): 5,924lbs (2,687kg)
Weight (MTOW): 9,546lbs (4,330kg)
Power plant: 1 x Garrett TFE731-2A-2A turbofan engine delivering 3,600lbs of thrust.
Maximum Speed: 497mph (800kmh; 432kts)
Maximum Range: 1,398miles (2,250km)
Service Ceiling: 42,651ft (13,000m; 8.1miles)
Rate-of-Climb: 0 feet per minute (0m/min)
Hardpoints: 5
Armament Suite:
OPTIONAL:
1 x 23mm cannon in external under fuselage gun-pod.
Additionally, strike variants can be outfitted with rocket pods, conventional drop bombs, laser-guided bombs, air-to-air/air-to-surface guided missiles and fuel drop tanks.
Variants:
JL-8 - Chinese Variant; fitted with Ukrainian Ivchenko AI-25 TLK turbofan engine.
JL-8W (K-8W) - Revised cockpit
JL-8VB (K8VB) - Bolivian Export Variant; based on the JL-8W.
L-11 - Chinese Variant; fitted with Chinese WS-11 turbofan engine (license production of Ivchencko AI-25 TLK turbofan engines).
K-8 "Karakorum" - Base Export Model; fitted with Garrett/Honeywell TFE731-2A turbofan engine.
K-8E - Egyptian Export Model; revised avionics systems.
K-8P - Pakistan Model; revised avionics
K-8V - Developmental Test-bed Airframe

Operators: Bolivia; China; Egypt; Ghana; Myanmar; Namibia; Pakistan; Sri Lanka; Sudan; Tanzania; Venezuela; Zambia; Zimbabwe.

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## nomi007



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## k!ng_0f_(~)3@rt$

nomi007 said:


> heli



Is this a trainer as well? give me more information about this


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## Imran Khan

k!ng_0f_(~)3@rt$ said:


> Is this a trainer as well? give me more information about this



its Chinese helicopter AC-313 aka mi-17 of china

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## k!ng_0f_(~)3@rt$

Imran Khan said:


> its Chinese helicopter AC-313 aka mi-17 of china



Thanks


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Not sure if posted before.



Imran Khan said:


> its Chinese helicopter AC-313 aka mi-17 of china



Lol... it doesnt look even 0.1% like MI-17... its a development of SA 321 Super Frelon.


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## Nishan_101

Windjammer said:


>



So does PAC had produce the 50 K-8s they were looking to. I think its also a good time to work on a Block-II version of it.


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## Windjammer



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## Kompromat

Would it be a good idea to use Turkish Cirit guided rockets on those rocket pods for precision light attacks?

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## Khaqan Humayun

[QUOTE
I just love the shape of the plane its just cool design[/QUOTE]

yes I like it too


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## zeeshanaayan07

F16 is the aeroplane in pakistan


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## slapshot

Windjammer said:


>


So many people standing on wings and fuselage of the jets isn't it hazardous for aircraft? I have seen pictures of people standing on other jets in masses which does look odd to me

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## THE MASK

zeeshanaayan07 said:


> F16 is the aeroplane in pakistan



Its a Brazilian Submarine bro!


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## Fieldmarshal

slapshot said:


> So many people standing on wings and fuselage of the jets isn't it hazardous for aircraft? I have seen pictures of people standing on other jets in masses which does look odd to me




it demonstrates the sturdiness of the airframe


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## Nishan_101

Aeronaut said:


> Would it be a good idea to use Turkish Cirit guided rockets on those rocket pods for precision light attacks?



Far better idea would be to do JV on the development of Sensors and other Electronics with EU and Japanese/Koreans to have our own Military and Commercial products.

Pakistan is only week in Electrical and Electronics field, and we need to build all types and kinds of R&D facilities in Pakistan.


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## air marshal

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10201146811284682

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## Jango

air marshal said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10201146811284682



Why the music???

Let us hear the noise of the aircraft!!!

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## Tempest II

slapshot said:


> So many people standing on wings and fuselage of the jets isn't it hazardous for aircraft? I have seen pictures of people standing on other jets in masses which does look odd to me



Empty weight = 2,687 kg 

Max TO weight = 4,330 kg 

Capacity = 1,643kg.

The above capacity of 1,643 is for a dynamic load. So on the ground like that it can probably carry 3 times as much. being conservative we could say twice and say 3,286 kg. ... ... say each of those 17 people weigh 80kg, that would total "only" 1,360kg.

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## Donatello

Tempest II said:


> Empty weight = 2,687 kg
> 
> Max TO weight = 4,330 kg
> 
> Capacity = 1,643kg.
> 
> The above capacity of 1,643 is for a dynamic load. So on the ground like that it can probably carry 3 times as much. being conservative we could say twice and say 3,286 kg. ... ... say each of those 17 people weigh 80kg, that would total "only" 1,360kg.



The wings can take much more than that. As long as the load is equally distributed. Hence the term 'Wing loading' in units of kg/m2

As long as they don't stand or step on the parts which are delicate and movable like the flaps/slats/trims etc.......it's fine. That is why you see labels on the wing no go areas saying 'Keep off' or 'No Step'


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## humayounkhatri

TOPGUN said:


> It is a nice shape indeed but i would like to see it in our grey schme



i like it , iwant to travel in one time in life, my wish


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## air marshal

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10201185064800996

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## razgriz19

why doesn't the smoke generator never works properly on PAF jets?
i watched Canadian Snowbirds last week, and they were perfect.


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## airomerix

razgriz19 said:


> why doesn't the smoke generator never works properly on PAF jets?
> i watched Canadian Snowbirds last week, and they were perfect.



You should see Blue angels. They are the perfect definition of "Perfection"


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## fatman17

u cant compare blue angels with sherdils.
blue angels is a fully funded full-time job for its pilots and the sqdn has its own maintainers.
sherdils pilots are selected instructor pilots who practice when it is required for the sherdils to perform. under the circumstances they do a great job!

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## Panther 57

TOPGUN said:


> It is a nice shape indeed but i would like to see it in our grey schme



Colour scheme is to ensure quick spotting not camouflage. Keep in mind its in very raw hands.



fatman17 said:


> u cant compare blue angels with sherdils.
> blue angels is a fully funded full-time job for its pilots and the sqdn has its own maintainers.
> sherdils pilots are selected instructor pilots who practice when it is required for the sherdils to perform. under the circumstances they do a great job!



Yes no comparison. Sherdil is a more difficult job then Red Arrows and Blue Angels. They are dedicated aerobatic teams.


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## Pak_Sher

PAF needs to also plan to induct superior training aircraft along with the K8s.


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## fatman17

*JL-8/K-8 Karakorum - Update





Two Venezuelan K-8W intermediate jet trainers were flying in close formation. The aircraft was developed jointly by Hongdu Aviation Industrial Group (Hongdu) and Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) in the late 80s with Pakistan providing 25% of the funding. It has max TO weight of 4,468kg, max level speed 800km/h, max climb rate 30m/s, max range 2,140km and ceiling 13,600m.

Only 6 K-8s were delivered to Pakistan in 1994. 6 more were delivered in 2003. Meanwhile the domestic JL-8 (also known as K-8J) which first flew in 1996 is currently in production. They are in service at the PLAAF and PLAN flight academies (S/N 1x3x, 1x5x, 2x1x, 2x3x, 3x2x, 3x3x, 3x4x, 4x5x, 4x7x, 4x8x, 84x0x), replacing the obsolete JJ-5s. However due to the US embargo on Allied Signal TFE731-2A turbofan, they have been powered by Ukrainian AI-25TLK turbofans, and is eventually to be powered by a locally designed WS-11 (an AI-25TLK clone, 16.87kN thrust).

The export version is generally better equipped with western components such as Martin Baker MK10L ejection seat and Collins EFIS and is able to carry PL-5E/PL-7 AAMs and a 23mm gun pod for air defence role. Besides Pakistan, Myanmar purchased 12, and Sri Lanka purchased 6. Several African countries also have bought K-8s, including Zambia, Zimbabwe and Namibia.

The real breakthrough came when Egypt signed a $345m deal to locally produce 80 K-8Es to replace her L-29 intermediate trainer. This has become a big boost to Hongdu's export effort in the competitive international market. The first two Egyptian K-8Es rolled out of the assembly line in late June 2001, carrying a 23mm gunpod under the fuselage and powered by an Allied Signal engine.

The assembly of all 80 K-8Es was accomplished by the end of 2005. A total of 500 K-8s were sold by 2010 and they account for 70% of the global market share. Meanwhile 400 JL-8s were ordered by PLAAF and PLAN. The newly established PLAAF Red Falcon Demonstration Team also flies JL-8s.

List of K-8 Overseas Customers
Country Number Comment
Pakistan 51 
27 K-8Ps with glass cockpit were delivered by October 2010. Another 12 were delivered in September 2011.
Myanmar 
12+60
60 more were ordered in late 2009. The delivery of first 12 started in mid-2010.
Sri Lanka 
6
3 lost in 2002 during guerrilla attack, 3 delivered in July 2005
Zambia 15 
8 K-8Ps were delivered in March 2012.
Namibia 4
Egypt 120 
locally assembled K-8Es, 40 were ordered in mid-2005
Zimbabwe 12 
1 crashed in September 2008
Ghana 4 
2 K-8Ps delivered in March 2007, 2 more in March 2008
Sudan 12 
6 K-8Ss delivered in 2007
Venezuela 18+22? 
18 K-8Ws were delivered by September 2010. One crashed in July 2010. Another in November 2012. 10 more were built by July 2011.
Bolivia 6 
6 K-8VBs were ordered in January 2010, delivered in April 2011.
Tanzania 6? 
At least one was damaged during an aborted take-off on October 23, 2012.
- Last Updated 11/11/13 *

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## shazlion

How much one of these Cost ? and is it possible we can buy a fighter from France or Russia or China etc for the same price or little more instead of buying just Trainers so they can be use during War too


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## aziqbal

I don't see how the PAF has 51 x K-8 it's more like 39 minis any crashes 

6 in 1994 
6 more in 2003
And 27 more by 2010 

That's 39 units

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## razgriz19

Tempest II said:


> Empty weight = 2,687 kg
> 
> Max TO weight = 4,330 kg
> 
> Capacity = 1,643kg.
> 
> The above capacity of 1,643 is for a dynamic load. So on the ground like that it can probably carry 3 times as much. being conservative we could say twice and say 3,286 kg. ... ... say each of those 17 people weigh 80kg, that would total "only" 1,360kg.


 
its not as simple as you suggested.
pylons are attached to the wing spars, the whole wing does not carry weight.
That skin is probably 40/1000 of an inch thick. And by standing between the ribs, it can be damaged quite easily.


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## Luftwaffe

shazlion said:


> How much one of these Cost ? and is it possible we can buy a fighter from France or Russia or China etc for the same price or little more instead of buying just Trainers so they can be use during War too


 
O boy, these cost atleast $6-7 million there is no fighter from france or russia for that cost and this is a Trainer Aircraft. For fighter jets google though a poor source try wiki...


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## Nishan_101

air marshal said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10201185064800996



PAC needs to assemble it locally. Also they should ask the GoP for more money for K-8 Block-II along with JF-17 Block-III development.

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## TaimiKhan

Nishan_101 said:


> PAC needs to assemble it locally. Also they should ask the GoP for more money for K-8 Block-II along with JF-17 Block-III development.



If you kept on going with your such idiotic rants, useless posts, i will be forced to send you on leave, and even then if you continued then a permanent ban will follow. 


Grow Up now.

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## Armstrong

TaimiKhan said:


> If you kept on going with your such idiotic rants, useless posts, i will be forced to send you on leave, and even then if you continued then a permanent ban will follow.
> 
> 
> Grow Up now.



To parphrase a couplet from Musadas-e-Hali :

_Yaroon kooo tujhe seii *Taimi* ye bud-gumaniyaan haiin, 

Neendeen uchaaat detiii teriii ravaniyaaan haiin !_ 

Sir hurrr waqt itnii seriousness nahin achiii hotiii dil behlaneiii ko sochneiii deiiin keiii Jf-17 Block 2, Raptor ka chotaaa Bhaiii ho gaaa !

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## fatman17

aziqbal said:


> I don't see how the PAF has 51 x K-8 it's more like 39 minis any crashes
> 
> 6 in 1994
> 6 more in 2003
> And 27 more by 2010
> 
> That's 39 units


 
actually 28 were in the inventory by 15th April 2010. a further 12 have been delivered since. total 40. i havnt heard of any attritions?

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## Rashid Mahmood

Sudanese AF JL - 8 (K-8)

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## fatman17



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## mado yu




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## mado yu

mado yu said:


>


l15


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## nomi007

actual sherdil pilots

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## fatman17

nomi007 said:


> actual sherdil pilots
> View attachment 24813


 
bunch of fat slobs!!!


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## fatman17



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## nomi007

Guess the pilot


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## Rashid Mahmood

nomi007 said:


> Guess the pilot




Air Chief Marshal (Retired) Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed


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## fatman17

Rashid Mahmood said:


> Air Chief Marshal (Retired) Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed


 
current ACM TR Butt.

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## Black Eagle 90

Why didn't PAC was able to manufacture it locally as we can do since 1990s with EU engines and Avionics. Even now we can do the same with Pak-China avionics and EU engines locally.


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## Informant

random247 said:


> Any possibility of Middle Eastern countries that will look towards K-8s...



No Nishan


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## Bilal.

Informant said:


> No Nishan



Any doubt... Get falana dimkana for JV, buy xyz weapon and abc too, get investment from Arab world....

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## Pinnacle

fatman17 said:


> bunch of fat slobs!!!


Sir why are they fat? a fighter pilot is supposed to be a highly fit man. Doesnt PAF own that fitness criteria now which it had since decades?


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## nomi007



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## Windjammer

*Alan Warnes* @warnesyworld · 23h
Seen plenty of K-8s this past few days. The PAF really work them hard in basic and advanced fighter training. Saw some with gun pods too.

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## SQ8

fatman17 said:


> bunch of fat slobs!!!



One of these fellows may be Flt lt Arslan(or whatever his rank his today).. guy looks like peter from family guy.. but is flying ok.

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## Kompromat



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## fatman17

Aeronaut said:


> View attachment 36562


 
no mention of weapons load?

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## DESERT FIGHTER

fatman17 said:


> no mention of weapons load?



Here is one firing unguided (?) rockets:


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## fatman17

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Here is one firing unguided (?) rockets:
> 
> View attachment 36656


 
not PAF



i3media said:


> Does PAC assemble it or buy it from China???


 
some sub-assemblies - 25%

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## DESERT FIGHTER

fatman17 said:


> not PAF
> 
> 
> 
> some sub-assemblies - 25%



Alan Warnes confirms PAF K-8s armed with rocket pods..

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## Metanoia

Maybe K-8 can solve the problem of our need for a dedicated CAS platform. I wonder how much load will it be able to carry though....


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## Chak Bamu

Metanoia said:


> Maybe K-8 can solve the problem of our need for a dedicated CAS platform. I wonder how much load will it be able to carry though....



Not likely.

1. CAS should have 2 engines not 1. In case one is damaged, the aircraft would have to be ditched. Blasting drug trafickers is one thing, confronting a trained and equipped enemy is another.

2. The plane would need to be armoured. That would add weight and there would be a need to redesign structure.

3. Hence load that could be carried would be severely impacted.

It would be better to design a CAS plane rather than convert a basic jet trainer into a two engined viable CAS platform. I doubt if that could be a priority. Dedicated CAS platforms require local aerial supermacy. USA and USSR could do it. But it is not a viable option for us.

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## Basel

Few K-8s should be upgraded with modern systems like RWR, MAWS, capability to carry weapons UMTAS/OMTAS, Cirit, it will give them Good CAS capability and they may be able to reduce work load on PAF's main fleet in COIN and will be good support for PAA's helos.

Instead of unguided rockets Cirit will be much more deadly as it is guided and have much more range.

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## Metanoia

Basel said:


> Few K-8s should be upgraded with modern systems like RWR, MAWS, capability to carry weapons UMTAS/OMTAS, Cirit, it will give them Good CAS capability and they may be able to reduce work load on PAF's main fleet in COIN and will be good support for PAA's helos.
> 
> Instead of unguided rockets Cirit will be much more deadly as it is guided and have much more range.



I think our CAS requirement has more to do with India rather than the COIN operations simply because of the territory factor. The territory is not suitable for CAS....we need more UCAVs and gunships over there.


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## greatone

defpk said:


> Why not any other Muslim country have joined in the project even off now by producing a Block-II with composite, DSI, Internal 21/25m.m gun and IFRP.



Is JF 17's refuelling probe retractable ?
Because I was lead to believe it wasn't, on another forum.


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## greatone

defpk said:


> I am saying the if Muslim countries can join in the K-8 program for Block-II development not saying about JF-17s. Also its not not retractable for JF-17s.



Oh my bad.
Why would someone want mid-flight refuelling on a trainer ?


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## fatman17

Metanoia said:


> Maybe K-8 can solve the problem of our need for a dedicated CAS platform. I wonder how much load will it be able to carry though....


 
unguided rockets are not much help against well dug in militant infrastructure. need PGM's to destroy those.


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## razgriz19

greatone said:


> Oh my bad.
> Why would someone want mid-flight refuelling on a trainer ?





fatman17 said:


> not PAF
> 
> 
> 
> some sub-assemblies - 25%








Missiles and gun pod

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## Basel

Metanoia said:


> I think our CAS requirement has more to do with India rather than the COIN operations simply because of the territory factor. The territory is not suitable for CAS....we need more UCAVs and gunships over there.



With weapons like Cirit, UMTAS/OMTAS and proper protection EW / chaff / flare systems it will be able to hit IA from good distance and 2 seats will allow swift and quick operations as all above mentioned are fire n forget so they don't have to stay on station for long, also ground troops, UAVs and other systems can be used to illuminate the targets before arrival of K-8s in battle area, this will allow them to quickly unleash their weapons and leave, avoiding SAM & IAF.

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## Bilal.

fatman17 said:


> not PAF
> 
> 
> 
> some sub-assemblies - 25%




It seems Pakistan is now able to manufacture most of the K-8 airframe including front fuselage, horizontal tail, vertical tail and engine cowling. If we make the wings I guess we will be able to manufacture the whole aircraft locally.

http://www.modp.gov.pk/gop/index.ph...lMjBEYXRhL1llYXIlMjBCb29rJTIwMjAxMC0xMS5wZGY=


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## Metanoia

Basel said:


> With weapons like Cirit, UMTAS/OMTAS and proper protection EW / chaff / flare systems it will be able to hit IA from good distance and 2 seats will allow swift and quick operations as all above mentioned are fire n forget so they don't have to stay on station for long, also ground troops, UAVs and other systems can be used to illuminate the targets before arrival of K-8s in battle area, this will allow them to quickly unleash their weapons and leave, avoiding SAM & IAF.



I had something similar in mind.

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## fatman17

razgriz19 said:


> Missiles and gun pod


 
these config's are for last ditch efforts......not normal ops with K-8....it remains a trainer.


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## nomi007



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## In arduis fidelis

In my opinion it will be great in the CAS role similar to A-10s of USAF.
Just few modifications would be reqd. such FLIR and addition of few hard points and we will have ourself a homegrown CAS jet.


----------



## fatman17

Rafay Jamil said:


> In my opinion it will be great in the CAS role similar to A-10s of USAF.
> Just few modifications would be reqd. such FLIR and addition of few hard points and we will have ourself a homegrown CAS jet.


 
the K-8 will need body armour protection.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

fatman17 said:


> the K-8 will need body armour protection.


And a new powerful engine..n a lot of other things .

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## Panther 57

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> And a new powerful engine..n a lot of other things .


Then lets design another aircraft if everything has to change LOL




fatman17 said:


> B-57 with special nose assembly?


Never saw baba with this nose.



fatman17 said:


> these config's are for last ditch efforts......not normal ops with K-8....it remains a trainer.


I think they are doing some gunnery on these. Can be a good CS aircraft


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## aliaselin

K-8K/Q-9 program reveals

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## jamal18

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> And a new powerful engine..n a lot of other things .



I suggested this a long time ago, and somebody who seemed pretty knowledgeable said it can't be done.

A CAS aircraft has to be designed for that purpose foundation upwards.


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## Sinnerman108

fatman17 said:


> the K-8 will need body armour protection.



What is wrong with a Propeller aircraft ?


----------



## dexter

Karakoram K-8VB under development at PAC (Pakistan aeronautical complex) for Bolivian airforce.
total 13 countries are using karakoram K-8 jets for training/light attack purpose.






total 6 aircrafts delivered to Bolivian airforce.

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## fatman17

dexter said:


> View attachment 56620
> 
> 
> Karakoram K-8VB under development at PAC (Pakistan aeronautical complex) for Bolivian airforce.
> total 13 countries are using karakoram K-8 jets for training/light attack purpose.
> 
> View attachment 56621
> 
> 
> not being built at PAC-Kamra.
> 
> total 6 aircrafts delivered to Bolivian airforce.


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## Interceptor2014

Why not Egypt-Libya-Algeria join in with the Chinese on the K-8 Block-IIs that might incorporate:
Composites
New Landing Gears like JF-17s
30m.m Internal gun
DSI Intakes
New improved EU engine
Better Avionics with 7 external station with 2500 Kg Payload
Radar with Embeded FLIR over nose


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## Panther 57

Interceptor2014 said:


> Why not Egypt-Libya-Algeria join in with the Chinese on the K-8 Block-IIs that might incorporate:
> Composites
> New Landing Gears like JF-17s
> 30m.m Internal gun
> DSI Intakes
> New improved EU engine
> Better Avionics with 7 external station with 2500 Kg Payload
> Radar with Embeded FLIR over nose


simply economics

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## Luftwaffe

Panther 57 said:


> simply economics



Lol he sounds like Nishan's lost cousin.

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## nomi007




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## Inception-06

Pakistan should also arm his K-8 Fleet:

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## fatman17

Ulla said:


> Pakistan should also arm his K-8 Fleet:
> View attachment 63525
> View attachment 63526
> View attachment 63528
> View attachment 63529
> View attachment 63530


 
this has been discussed to death.....

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## Kompromat

I dont see any utility armed K-8s would add to PAF.


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## Inception-06

fatman17 said:


> this has been discussed to death.....



I know, but we have never seen such good pictures of the full armed K-8 !


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## Munir

We do not have opponents that are that bad that we would risk K8 in combat. And a trainer is nice but we have pilots doing combat training in the next phase. When they get in F7, Mirage, JF17 and F16...

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## syed_yusuf

PAF k-8p are fully armed with weapons mentioned in above pictures. there is no need to used them for dedicated missions and when time comes they will be put into service. no question asked. k-8p could perform CAS as well as point air defense any time.

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## fatman17

syed_yusuf said:


> PAF k-8p are fully armed with weapons mentioned in above pictures. there is no need to used them for dedicated missions and when time comes they will be put into service. no question asked. k-8p could perform CAS as well as point air defense any time.


 
in theory yes.....

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## Najam Khan

syed_yusuf said:


> PAF k-8p are fully armed with weapons mentioned in above pictures. there is no need to used them for dedicated missions and when time comes they will be put into service. no question asked. k-8p could perform CAS as well as point air defense any time.



If that is really needed, then PAC needs to take a look at chaffs/flares bucket size in K-8 too

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## 风之南国

China has a new trainer 山鹰、猎鹰Function better。


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## Panther 57

Ulla said:


> Pakistan should also arm his K-8 Fleet:
> View attachment 63525
> View attachment 63526
> View attachment 63528
> View attachment 63529
> View attachment 63530


I think to some extent already done and rest in the pipeline.

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## Frogman



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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Beautiful color scheme

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## Frogman

Egyptian Silver Stars in their K-8Es performing during the opening of the New Suez Canal project. Great video.

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## raahaat7

what is the contribution of pac in the making of the k8? Is there a provision to increase its share at a later date?


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## fatman17

raahaat7 said:


> what is the contribution of pac in the making of the k8? Is there a provision to increase its share at a later date?


 
25% and no.


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## raahaat7

@fatman are there any parts being made in pakistan? Thanks in advance.

i mean what percent?


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## fatman17

raahaat7 said:


> @fatman are there any parts being made in pakistan? Thanks in advance.
> 
> i mean what percent?


 stabilizers, etc. airframe mostly.


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## raahaat7

is there any proposal in the pipeline to localy produce an ajt? Thanks.


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## Imran Khan

raahaat7 said:


> is there any proposal in the pipeline to localy produce an ajt? Thanks.


 at this time there is no such need sir may be letter on some . we have very limited need of AJT that is why i think .


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## Arsalan

raahaat7 said:


> is there any proposal in the pipeline to localy produce an ajt? Thanks.



No requirement of LOCALLY PRODUCED AJT as we do not need these in huge numbers and developing a completed new aircraft just to induct a few examples of it is not worth it.


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## Interceptor2014

I think PAC should welcome other Muslim countries to become partner in K-8 program to develop the next generation K-8 Block-II with improved system, better composite airframe and etc.


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## Munir

Interceptor2014 said:


> I think PAC should welcome other Muslim countries to become partner in K-8 program to develop the next generation K-8 Block-II with improved system, better composite airframe and etc.



So how many nations can contribute in technology to make it better? Those that can are interested in better planes. Those that are not are beggars anyway. And others are restricted but western powers. Good luck finding "partners"

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## Reichmarshal

K8 has been a very successful venture for PAF n its Chinese partner. They don't need any other partner to develop a improved version of k8.
I am sure they will find buyers for that as well

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## fatman17

*List of K-8 Overseas Customers*

Country Number Comment
Pakistan 51 
27 *K-8P*s with glass cockpit were delivered by October 2010. Another 12 were delivered in September 2011.
Myanmar 
12+60
60 more were ordered in late 2009. The delivery of first 12 started in mid-2010.
Sri Lanka 
6
3 lost in 2002 during guerrilla attack, 3 delivered in July 2005
Zambia 15 
8 *K-8P*s were delivered in March 2012.
Namibia 4
Egypt 120 
locally assembled *K-8E*s, 40 were ordered in mid-2005
Zimbabwe 12 
1 crashed in September 2008
Ghana 4 
2 *K-8P*s delivered in March 2007, 2 more in March 2008
Sudan 12 
6 *K-8S*s delivered in 2007
Venezuela 18+22? 
18 *K-8W*s were delivered by September 2010. One crashed in July 2010. Another in November 2012. 10 more were built by July 2011.
Bolivia 6 
6 K-8VBs were ordered in January 2010, delivered in April 2011.
Tanzania 6? 
At least one was damaged during an aborted take-off on October 23, 2012.
Bangladesh 9 
9 *K-8W*s were ordered in late 2013. 4 delivered in September 2014.
_- Last Updated 9/29/14_ 
K-8 has been a successful export platform for China.

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## black-hawk_101

But developing will enable more countries buying it as many countries are now looking for light attack fighter which K-8s suits best with these upgrades:
1. Composite Airframe with DSI and non retractable Air Refueling probe.
2. Improved Engine.
3. Better 4th Gen. Avionics.
4. 2.5-3.0 Tons external payload(3 under each wing and one under fuselarge) with 21m.m internal gun.
5. EOTS like on UAVs and Radar in Nose(AESA).
6. Landing gears like JF-17s.


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## fatman17

Sherdils at Al-Ain airshow a few years back


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## black-hawk_101

This will increase the cost of per plane to $10-11 Million but it will worth a fighting machine along with training aid too.


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## fatman17




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## aziqbal

Both K8 and Mushshak provide a good platform to do more aircraft business for Pakistan 

But exporting a trainer and a fighter aircraft are also two different scenarios 

Let's hope we break the fighter aircraft barrier soon


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## krash

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 136502
> 
> 
> View attachment 136504





fatman17 said:


> View attachment 136501
> Sherdils at Al-Ain airshow a few years back



Those are T-37 tweets not K-8s.


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## fatman17

krash said:


> Those are T-37 tweets not K-8s.


 
my bad.....


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## krash

fatman17 said:


> my bad.....



Nah nah was just saying.

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## osama zafar

Its cute.


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## monitor

we recently inducted this craft in our inventory .

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## fatman17

at IDEAS-2014, the PAC for the 1st time displayed a fully armed K-8 for the delegates.

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## TOPGUN

fatman17 said:


> at IDEAS-2014, the PAC for the 1st time displayed a fully armed K-8 for the delegates.




Any pic's of it ?


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## fatman17

TOPGUN said:


> Any pic's of it ?


 
been looking for them, no luck so far....

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## fatman17

K-8 crash of an un-identified AF.

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## fatman17



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## krash

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 175159
> K-8 crash of an un-identified AF.



Venezuelan Air Force's K8. Video below. Notice how the chutes hadn't even fully deployed when the pilots hit the ground, hence Pakistani K-8s come with a Martin Baker zero-zero ejection seat.








Embedded media from this media site is no longer available

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## M.ASIF AMIN

K-8 AT IDEAS 2014

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## farhan_9909

M.ASIF AMIN said:


> K-8 AT IDEAS 2014



Why they don't use k-8 against terrorists instead of f-16?


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## M.ASIF AMIN

K-8 at IDEAS 2014








K-8 at IDEAS 2014

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## fatman17

farhan_9909 said:


> Why they don't use k-8 against terrorists instead of f-16?


 
needs armour protection.....

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## Ijaz Ahmad Zarrar

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> View attachment 131466
> 
> 
> I just love the shape of the plane its just cool design


Very Cool...

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## nomi007

Karakoram K-8P trainer/light attack aircraft with short range air to air missiles produced by PAC (Pakistan Aeronautical Complex).





what is name of the missile?

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## Tacticool

nomi007 said:


> what is name of the missile?


It is written on the chit below AIM 9P

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## Windjammer



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## Zibago



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## monitor

*Myanmar Air Force aircraft get six new Chinese K-8 trainer aircraft*

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## hassan1



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## Yazp

Literally is a rip-off of the L39 made in the Czech Republic.
Slovakian Airforce's L39: The only difference between the two would be the K8 is ugly.

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## fatman17

Yazp said:


> Literally is a rip-off of the L39 made in the Czech Republic.
> Slovakian Airforce's L39: The only difference between the two would be the K8 is ugly.



Look around how many jet trainers look alike. What

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## Yazp

fatman17 said:


> Look around how many jet trainers look alike. What


The others have different shapes. Our one is a copy of the L39 with an uglier face and a new name. However I respect your opinion on the L39 and K8 not being the same thing.

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## IrbiS



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## AsifIjaz

1st of all.... please do not start nishanifying me....
but
i think if we can improve the K8 avionics + may be the engine then we can make this plane into an affective light attack or counter insurgency aircraft..
but then again cost has to be rationalized in improving this old aircraft and going for a new one e.g L-15

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## fatman17

AsifIjaz said:


> 1st of all.... please do not start nishanifying me....
> but
> i think if we can improve the K8 avionics + may be the engine then we can make this plane into an affective light attack or counter insurgency aircraft..
> but then again cost has to be rationalized in improving this old aircraft and going for a new one e.g L-15




Discussed many many times. Why start again.

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## AsifIjaz

I know thats why i said that dont nishanify me...
what i ahd in mind was to turn this aircraft into a test bed... Avionics and other systems developed and tested on K8 for further integration into jf17 after tweaking and improvement. in the meanwhile this aircraft will and can develop into something more useful. we have to start somewhere, why not with k-8???
*EDIT:* on a second thought I guess i am actually reopening an old and a much hated topic. So lets call it a day on this point.

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## MICA



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## Viper0011.

hassan1 said:


> View attachment 197632



May be I am not seeing this clearly, but does this trainer has IRIST? The sensor after the cockpit but before the nose cone, looks like an IRIST sensor...?


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

*23rd March parade rehearsals (Sherdils Team) :


























*

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## LonE_WolF



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## LonE_WolF



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## IrbiS

Viper0011. said:


> May be I am not seeing this clearly, but does this trainer has IRIST? The sensor after the cockpit but before the nose cone, looks like an IRIST sensor...?


Where?


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## fatman17

Just a nice pic


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## fatman17

K8 Basic Advanced trainer aircraft


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## Saifullah

Kamal_dbk said:


> View attachment 205952
> View attachment 205953


Looks very nice in this color scheme.


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## fatman17

K8 flight line


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER



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## IrbiS



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## nomi007

First Batch of K-8 Pilots PAF (Pioneers) !!!

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## Blue Marlin



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## fatman17

Sherdils


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## niaz

PAF K-8 is fitted with Honeywell TFE 731-2A-2A engine with 16.1 KN thrust whereas Chinese JL-8 has more powerful WS-11 engine with 16.9 KN thrust. This translates into K-8 being underpowered with max speed limited to Mach 0.75 and less than 2000 KG load. Our neighbouring IAF has BAE Hawk Jet trainers that boast of Mach 0.84 max and 3,000 KG useful load.

Hence, on paper K-8 falls into the category of Intermediate Trainers. Advanced Jet trainers such as Alenia Aermacchi M-346, T-50 & JL-9 are capable of much higher performance. I have therefore following questions:

1. Does PAF have any plans of fitting a more powerful engine to push the max speed of K-8 to say Mach 0.9?

2. Would PAF induct a supersonic advanced trainer in the foreseeable future?


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## fatman17

niaz said:


> PAF K-8 is fitted with Honeywell TFE 731-2A-2A engine with 16.1 KN thrust whereas Chinese JL-8 has more powerful WS-11 engine with 16.9 KN thrust. This translates into K-8 being underpowered with max speed limited to Mach 0.75 and less than 2000 KG load. Our neighbouring IAF has BAE Hawk Jet trainers that boast of Mach 0.84 max and 3,000 KG useful load.
> 
> Hence, on paper K-8 falls into the category of Intermediate Trainers. Advanced Jet trainers such as Alenia Aermacchi M-346, T-50 & JL-9 are capable of much higher performance. I have therefore following questions:
> 
> 1. Does PAF have any plans of fitting a more powerful engine to push the max speed of K-8 to say Mach 0.9?
> 
> 2. Would PAF induct a supersonic advanced trainer in the foreseeable future?



Apparently the airforce is evaluating the Korean T50

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## Blue Marlin

fatman17 said:


> Apparently the airforce is evaluating the Korean T50


they eveauating that and they like it. if they buy enough of them south korea will build a ship yard in gwadar and invest there. but this is unlikely due to financail constraints so the l15 is more of a realistic option.

t50






l15


----------



## Quwa

The current training line up seems to be working fine for the PAF, I don't expect a new LIFT until the K-8s age near retirement. At that point I think the PAF is likely to streamline to two core platforms: (1) a turboprop to handle basic and intermediate flight and (2) a LIFT to handle jet and fighter conversion.


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## Blue Marlin

Mark Sien said:


> The current training line up seems to be working fine for the PAF, I don't expect a new LIFT until the K-8s age near retirement. At that point I think the PAF is likely to streamline to two core platforms: (1) a turboprop to handle basic and intermediate flight and (2) a LIFT to handle jet and fighter conversion.


if you read a magazine article by your airforce chief he said pakistan is not looking fo a lift jet as the dual seat jf17 will fill in the role of some the the lift's requirements.


----------



## Quwa

blue marlin said:


> if you read a magazine article by your airforce chief he said pakistan is not looking fo a lift jet as the dual seat jf17 will fill in the role of some the the lift's requirements.
> View attachment 241314


Depends on the aircraft. Some LIFT may be cheaper to operate than a proper fighter.


----------



## Blue Marlin

Mark Sien said:


> Depends on the aircraft. Some LIFT may be cheaper to operate than a proper fighter.


pakistan wants the t50 but it got financial constraints so the l15 may be an option but the jf17 dual seat will have features that make the lift unless so i doubt the lift program will happen the t40 is a good Bird, it can also be used as a light fighter as well


----------



## Quwa

blue marlin said:


> pakistan wants the t50 but it got financial constraints so the l15 may be an option but the jf17 dual seat will have features that make the lift unless so i doubt the lift program will happen the t40 is a good Bird, it can also be used as a light fighter as well


The PAF isn't focused on buying any LIFT systems at the moment, I think it'll consider it after 2020 when the oldest K-8s are due to be retired. At that point they'll probably consider a bigger shift by replacing the K-8s, Mushak and T-37s with something like Hurkus, and K-8 and the FT-7 with a LIFT aircraft.


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## Blue Marlin

Mark Sien said:


> The PAF isn't focused on buying any LIFT systems at the moment, I think it'll consider it after 2020 when the oldest K-8s are due to be retired. At that point they'll probably consider a bigger shift by replacing the K-8s, Mushak and T-37s with something like Hurkus, and K-8 and the FT-7 with a LIFT aircraft.


the t37 is being replaced by the tai hurkus, Pakistan is not even bothering looking at it as it is still in development and not due to enter service by 2018 after then then yes as turkey has the t-37 

also the mushak trainers will be replaced with new models as they are very good air frames or the hurkus but then they will get tot and co produce to make up for ceasing the mushak production.

with the lift program you have a point where the k-8 need to be phased out around 2020 but i will wait and see what happens . but from what i know ,and been told the jf17 dual seat will temporary take the lead trainer role unitll a full time successor has been chosen. i think they will get the l15 but the t-50 is better. it will have the same engines as the hal tejas mkII


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## Quwa

It'll largely depend on what costs less to operate per flight. While a two seat JF-17 may cost less from an acquisition standpoint, a smaller LIFT may be more economical.


----------



## Blue Marlin

Mark Sien said:


> It'll largely depend on what costs less to operate per flight. While a two seat JF-17 may cost less from an acquisition standpoint, a smaller LIFT may be more economical.


thats the problems a new lift will be more economical and makes more sense but Pakistan just simply can't afford what it wants


----------



## Quwa

blue marlin said:


> thats the problems a new lift will be more economical and makes more sense but Pakistan just simply can't afford what it wants


I think a LIFT might be possible once the JF-17 inductions come to a close in the early 2020s. By then a number of the K-8s may also be due for replacing.


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## fatman17

blue marlin said:


> thats the problems a new lift will be more economical and makes more sense but Pakistan just simply can't afford what it wants



Stranger things have happened so let's wait for the moment and not pre judge.


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## Quwa

fatman17 said:


> Stranger things have happened so let's wait for the moment and not pre judge.


Like the AH-1Z deal that came out of left field.

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## fatman17

Just a nice pic

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## Frogman



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## fatman17

Frogman said:


> View attachment 242679
> View attachment 242680
> View attachment 242681
> View attachment 242682
> View attachment 242683
> View attachment 242684
> View attachment 242685
> 
> 
> View attachment 242686



Not PAF K8s


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## Frogman

fatman17 said:


> Not PAF K8s



Not saying they are. Thought this was a more general thread on the K-8 and its derivatives.


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## Paksanity

fatman17 said:


> Not PAF K8s



But sure are interesting snaps. Egyptian Air Force that is. @Frogman that appears to be Egyptian aerobatics team of K-8. You have more info on these guys? I wonder how loved K-8 is among Egyptian pilots.


----------



## Frogman

Paksanity said:


> But sure are interesting snaps. Egyptian Air Force that is. @Frogman that appears to be Egyptian aerobatics team of K-8. You have more info on these guys? I wonder how loved K-8 is among Egyptian pilots.



They're called the Silver Stars. Egyptian Air Force Academy instructors do this in their spare time/on call. It's not a dedicated aerobatic wing like the Red Arrows or anything similar.

The K-8E is a advanced trainer so there's not much to say about it really. Does its job well not much more you can ask for.

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## fatman17

Just a nice pic


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## Frogman



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## Panther 57

*Pages from History*

*



*
*Pioneer K-8 Pilots along with PAC Pilots
*
 In the August of 1994 a group of eight instructors from PAF Academy were selected and sent to China Nanchang Aircraft Manufacturing Company at Nanchang in Jiangxi Province. The selected lot reached Nanchang two PAF pilots were already present there on behalf of Pakistan Aeronautic Complex Kamra. It was interesting to find own colleagues representatives of supplier (CNAMC & PAC), dealing with their countrymen as the buyers’ (PAF) cockpit crew. The contingent was taken through an extensive round of ground training, commonly known as Aircraft Technical Training (ATT). Finally on 14th September, 1994 first pilot of PAF went airborne in a K-8 aircraft with Chinese Test Pilots. The PAF crew was allowed only three sorties of one hour each under supervision of Chinese Test Pilots before going solo. It was an experience of life time. The Chinese pilot would transmit his instructions to ground control, where it was interpreted to PAC pilots, who in turn would relay the message back to the front occupant of the aircraft. Likewise, it was vice-e-versa for PAF pilot. It is easier said than done, major portion of the flight was consumed inter cockpit communication. Yet, all involved achieved their solos in stipulated time. 

After all the pilots of PAF contingent had flown solo flight, they started flying mutually to evaluate the aircraft and develop their own thumb rules. It was very interesting to find out that when temperature in Nanchang goes to 36°C automatically holiday is declared in Nanchang. Though a proper justification from Chinese could not be achieved, thus, it was presumed that high humidity levels prevalent in the area was the reason for such call offs. In a short span of 14 days, with a number of automatic holidays and bad weathers in between, each PAF pilot completed his 12 sorties with different configurations. The contingent returned in first week of October 1994. Pilots were redeployed to their original units. In first week of Nov 1994 the contingent was reconstituted and preparation started to welcome first batch of K-8 aircraft. 

On 7th November 1994, team reached Hotien from where deliver of aircraft was arranged. In just one day time all pilots checked each other out for proficiency along with Functional Check Flight of each aircraft to be ferried to Pakistan. Dawn of 9th November was ready to welcome K-8 at PAF Academy Risalpur. Flying in the vicinity of Siachin, on looking snow covered peak of K-2, keeping in sight Gilglit, crossed Chilas with relieving sigh, from winding valleys into the plains of Risalpur, six aircraft were home by noon.


On 28th January Mohtarma Benazir Bhutto, the then Prime Minister of Pakistan, formally inducted K-8 in Pakistan Air Force.

An extensive evaluation of first batch aircraft was carried out at Risalpur, yet PAF worried about future of K-8 in academy; it was the most important of all The Spin characteristics. None of the pilots of K-8 were taken through the spin training, except for the incipient stage recovery. PAF was skeptical on trusting the student with an aircraft not yet proven for its Spin and Recovery capabilities. Finally, in March of 1995 two pilots were selected to undergo flight characteristic test pilot training in China. The pair was allowed six sorties each to undergo spin training. The K-8 was configured with anti-spin rockets for first two sorties, it suggested, that PAF pilots were not the only one trying out spin for the first time. During these six hours each pilot experienced a combination of at least 50 erect and inverted spins. The pair returned with their final comments: “For spin, instead of trusting the student with the aircraft, aircraft can be trusted with the student.”

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## Windjammer



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## HawkerHunter

nightrider_saulat said:


> i think t is among the best sub-sonic trainer available in the world today


It is not the best trainer in World. But still it is serving the purpose. Used basically in PAF at Fighter Conversion Unit.


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## Panther 57

HawkerHunter said:


> It is not the best trainer in World. But still it is serving the purpose. Used basically in PAF at Fighter Conversion Unit.


Very stable aircraft. You can trust it with the student.


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## HawkerHunter

Panther 57 said:


> Very stable aircraft. You can trust it with the student.


Yes I know its stable, but the fact is that it is Chinese technology. For Basic Flying even T 37 is obsolete, it is better than K 8. For Fighter Conversion K 8 somehow is doing a good Job.


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## Panther 57

HawkerHunter said:


> Yes I know its stable, but the fact is that it is Chinese technology. For Basic Flying even T 37 is obsolete, it is better than K 8. For Fighter Conversion K 8 somehow is doing a good Job.


K-8 should not be compared to T-37. K-8 is unfit for spin training, but as an aircraft it is certainly better then T-37, just because it is chinese it cannot be called as inferior. Even the first batch was 50% glass cockpit and was equipped with EFIS, TFE-731 a highly reliable engine. It is a very agile aircraft.


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## bdslph

China Egypt Pakistan finally to Bangladesh airforce


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## HawkerHunter

Panther 57 said:


> K-8 should not be compared to T-37. K-8 is unfit for spin training, but as an aircraft it is certainly better then T-37, just because it is chinese it cannot be called as inferior. Even the first batch was 50% glass cockpit and was equipped with EFIS, TFE-731 a highly reliable engine. It is a very agile aircraft.


The engine is very powerful but airframe doesn't support the engine. So efficiency of engine is reduced. It is not more stable than T 37. Additionally the switching and circuit breakers are not in symmetry, pure Chinese way of switching.


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## Panther 57

HawkerHunter said:


> The engine is very powerful but airframe doesn't support the engine. So efficiency of engine is reduced. It is not more stable than T 37. Additionally the switching and circuit breakers are not in symmetry, pure Chinese way of switching.


may be you have more experience on K-8 then me.


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## HawkerHunter

Panther 57 said:


> may be you have more experience on K-8 then me.


I don't have any experience, but knowledge, yes I have.

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## DESERT FIGHTER



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## Windjammer



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## HawkerHunter

Windjammer said:


>





Windjammer said:


>


TAKE OFF ENGAGE


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## hibiny

Nice images


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## SBUS-CXK

TOPGUN said:


> It is a nice shape indeed but i would like to see it in our grey schme


 Haha, yes, as a Chinese, also think we should change the color.China website has a lot of contrast Pakistan brothers and China about the coating contrast... By the way, help us to change the color please.

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## batool100

Can you share the video plz.


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## Danish saleem

any pic of cock pit of K8P?


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## Dazzler

Danish saleem said:


> any pic of cock pit of K8P?

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## Signalian

The SC said:


> The Mokopa anti-tank guided missile (ATGM) is another interesting system, though its connection with a fast jet fighter platform such as the JF-17 may not be clear at first. Equipped with a laser-guided seeker and capable of travelling up to 10km, the Mokopa is Denel Dynamics’ equivalent to the AGM-114 Hellfire II. Denel clearly has the competency to extend the range of the missile and pair it with an IIR or even a millimeter wave (mmW) terminal seeker. This could make it a somewhat similar solution to the Brimstone AGM. Such a munition could enable the user to engage ground targets, including moving vehicles, with a very high degree of precision. A single JF-17 hardpoint could also carry two to three of these missiles.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Denel Mokopa anti-tank guided missile. Photo credit: Denel Dynamics



A ground attack version of K-8 dedicated in COIN or anti tank role like A-10 can use this ATGM instead of putting this on JF-17 which i think is an under utilisation of a fighter aircraft.

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## Bilal9

K-8W variant from Bangladesh AF 15th Squadron. Copyrights attributed to owners as indicated.

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## Quwa

Sarge said:


> A ground attack version of K-8 dedicated in COIN or anti tank role like A-10 can use this ATGM instead of putting this on JF-17 which i think is an under utilisation of a fighter aircraft.


There are no heavy ground attack aircraft akin to the A-10 on the market. That role has essentially been adopted by fighter aircraft such as the F-16. With the right armaments - e.g. laser-guided air-to-ground missiles and rockets, small diameter bombs, etc - the JF-17 can serve as a ground attack platform too. Granted, the K-8 could be used as well, but it does not have the same payload capacity nor physical attributes to let it survive in a high-threat AAW environment. The K-8 may work for counterinsurgency, but not a state-on-state scenario.

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## Signalian

Quwa said:


> There are no heavy ground attack aircraft akin to the A-10 on the market. That role has essentially been adopted by fighter aircraft such as the F-16. With the right armaments - e.g. laser-guided air-to-ground missiles and rockets, small diameter bombs, etc - the JF-17 can serve as a ground attack platform too. Granted, the K-8 could be used as well, but it does not have the same payload capacity nor physical attributes to let it survive in a high-threat AAW environment. The K-8 may work for counterinsurgency, but not a state-on-state scenario.



In a war, PAF makes PA requests for air cover secondary always and keeps all its aircraft assets for AD role or own missions, which is why PA should have own fixed wing attack aircraft just like PN now.

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## Nishan-e-Haider

Wow


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## ConcealCarry

PAC has been making these aircraft for decades now, if we need new aircraft for training, why cant we try to design our very own design? Starting from basic PROP trainer and then moving on to LIFT? With the experience of Mushak, Super Mushak, K8 and now JF-17, isn't there enough technical knowledge in-house to at least try that?

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## SQ8

ConcealCarry said:


> PAC has been making these aircraft for decades now, if we need new aircraft for training, why cant we try to design our very own design? Starting from basic PROP trainer and then moving on to LIFT? With the experience of Mushak, Super Mushak, K8 and now JF-17, isn't there enough technical knowledge in-house to at least try that?


Why create a LIFT for a market of 30 jets max? Especially when the world market too is saturated with it. 
Please, this is a characteristic of stupid nations to do stuff just for the heck of it and not only when they need to.

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## Quwa

For LIFT we will have JF-17B.

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## MastanKhan

ConcealCarry said:


> PAC has been making these aircraft for decades now, if we need new aircraft for training, why cant we try to design our very own design? Starting from basic PROP trainer and then moving on to LIFT? With the experience of Mushak, Super Mushak, K8 and now JF-17, isn't there enough technical knowledge in-house to at least try that?



Hi,

That is where they missed the boat on the JF17 dual seater in the initial stages. 

When your target and goal is to sell your single seater---the best route taken is thru the 2 seater combination of the same brand---.

Because now you would have a captive audience---. The instrumentation and design is the same as in the 2 seater to the single seater---so the ease of transition---the shape form and function are the same.

That would have been a big sales pitch----the pilots would also learn to fly independent sooner---and will be able to perform their duties much better on a faster learning curve. When you got into the single seater---you did not need to do anything different---all the switches and displays would be at the same location.

Now---as for the design---when it is selling---why to make any change to the design---. The infra structure is already setup for the servicing of the super Mushak---why bring something new---when there are orders that you have a hard time fulfilling and we already have the product.

Same thing is going to happen to the JF17 as well---. It had its set backs due to poor marketing and a lack of Lift---. But once the things get rolling---it would be hard to stop.

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## fatman17

I recently read somewhere that the airforce was planning to replace the K8 with a more modern trainer in 2010 but the plan was abandoned for various reasons and the K8 continues to soldier on.

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## ziaulislam

fatman17 said:


> I recently read somewhere that the airforce was planning to replace the K8 with a more modern trainer in 2010 but the plan was abandoned for various reasons and the K8 continues to soldier on.


with what..k-8 is new addition brought in number just a decade ago..a quick replacement if they were thinking that

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## Quwa

fatman17 said:


> I recently read somewhere that the airforce was planning to replace the K8 with a more modern trainer in 2010 but the plan was abandoned for various reasons and the K8 continues to soldier on.


There was hardly anything available in 2010. Nowadays however, the Turks are marketing the Hurkus turboprop trainer as a fighter trainer alternative to the T-37.

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## Arsalan

fatman17 said:


> I recently read somewhere that the airforce was planning to replace the K8 with a more modern trainer in 2010 but the plan was abandoned for various reasons and the K8 continues to soldier on.


Sir in my view, like many other projects the K8 also faced the same problem, being stagnant and stationary. 

With a base build in form of K8 we could and should have built on that and moved forward/ progressed to better platform. However the top brass just froze and the project was stagnant. No real developments were made keeping in mind the future and now we are in a position where instead of a K8 based home grown platform we are talking about changing to a new more modern plane. Each time we spend the heavy amount of money, energy and time rather then building on what we already have. Same thing have happened with many of our military projects. I hope this is not the case with JF17 (and i am not talking about JF17 future blocks but beyond JF17 project as well) 

Regards!

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## Paksanity

fatman17 said:


> I recently read somewhere that the airforce was planning to replace the K8 with a more modern trainer in 2010 but the plan was abandoned for various reasons and the K8 continues to soldier on.




Hurkus would be a good replacement for both T-37 and K-8. Especially if we can get partial local manufacturing and assembly. I sometimes feel Pakistan needs a LIFT of M-346/ Yak-130 class (non reheat engines, low maintenance cost) thus effectively cutting the training cycle to just three types; all of them budget friendly in terms of operating costs. It could be MFI-17 to Hurkus to M-346 (?) and straight to fighting units.

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## fatman17

Hurkus also being planned as a COIN aircraft

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Paksanity said:


> Hurkus would be a good replacement for both T-37 and K-8. Especially if we can get partial local manufacturing and assembly. I sometimes feel Pakistan needs a LIFT of M-346/ Yak-130 class (non reheat engines, low maintenance cost) thus effectively cutting the training cycle to just three types; all of them budget friendly in terms of operating costs. It could be MFI-17 to Hurkus to M-346 (?) and straight to fighting units.


If Pakistan does select the Hurkus, it is not enough to go for local licensed production. If it is limited to just that, then we risk the same problem we have had with the K-8, which was stagnation (as rightly put by @Arsalan). We need to tie the local licensed production with commercial offsets, i.e. looping PAC into TAI's global supply chain. The two companies should also collaborate on marketing the Hurkus to third party markets; the larger the pool of users, the more work PAC will get in terms of sourcing specific spare parts.

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## Arsalan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> If Pakistan does select the Hurkus, it is not enough to go for local licensed production. If it is limited to just that, then we risk the same problem we have had with the K-8, which was stagnation (as rightly put by @Arsalan). We need to tie the local licensed production with commercial offsets, i.e. looping PAC into TAI's global supply chain. The two companies should also collaborate on marketing the Hurkus to third party markets; the larger the pool of users, the more work PAC will get in terms of sourcing specific spare parts.


True!! 
What is done is done and now if PAF and PAC have really lost interest in future K8s they may well decide to move to this Hurkus. However, i just hope and pray that lesson was learned and we wont face the same fate again where we will again be sitting here deciding for a replacement of Hurkus to be imported after some 10 15 years! That is actually stupid. Frankly if this is what we want then why waste those $$ on ToT and license production? Just go out there are buy something ready made for your needs. The ONLY reason for investing in ToT and in-house production, especially of such equipment (i say so because if it was a fighter plane an additional reason may be ensuring maintenance and parts supply in war time) is because we need to build our own industrial base to take on such projects in the future. With K8 we already have that so the best approach would have been to keep working on that or even to use those lessons learned and made a new platform for future needs. However, as in most cases, we seem the be decided on yet an other purchase and all that effort and input into K8 will be down the drain or say the truth or at least not properly taken advantage of to be polite! 

Hurkus is an awesome plane and can be used in COIN as well. All i hope for is that this wont face the same fate and for once we make Hurkus and its local production a base for future procurement rather than sitting on the same table again and deciding what to buy next. One other MAIN aspect will be to get licensed manufacturer status and get our self in that supply chain to exploit export potential as well as try and get some private sector involved if possible. I pray that it is time we learn from mistakes and wrong decisions of the past and start building on what little we have.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Arsalan said:


> True!!
> What is done is done and now if PAF and PAC have really lost interest in future K8s they may well decide to move to this Hurkus. However, i just hope and pray that lesson was learned and we wont face the same fate again where we will again be sitting here deciding for a replacement of Hurkus to be imported after some 10 15 years! That is actually stupid. Frankly if this is what we want then why waste those $$ on ToT and license production? Just go out there are buy something ready made for your needs. The ONLY reason for investing in ToT and in-house production, especially of such equipment (i say so because if it was a fighter plane an additional reason may be ensuring maintenance and parts supply in war time) is because we need to build our own industrial base to take on such projects in the future. With K8 we already have that so the best approach would have been to keep working on that or even to use those lessons learned and made a new platform for future needs. However, as in most cases, we seem the be decided on yet an other purchase and all that effort and input into K8 will be down the drain or say the truth or at least not properly taken advantage of to be polite!
> 
> Hurkus is an awesome plane and can be used in COIN as well. All i hope for is that this wont face the same fate and for once we make Hurkus and its local production a base for future procurement rather than sitting on the same table again and deciding what to buy next. One other MAIN aspect will be to get licensed manufacturer status and get our self in that supply chain to exploit export potential as well as try and get some private sector involved if possible. I pray that it is time we learn from mistakes and wrong decisions of the past and start building on what little we have.


As far as complete manufacturing goes, I'd just focus on the JF-17. For everything else, and I mean _*everything else *_- from the next-gen fighter, to helicopters, to potentially MALE UAVs and the Hurkus trainer - I would recommend complete MRO and partial local manufacturing of commonly worn parts. We essentially just need to ensure that we can operate our goods to end-of-life with as little dependence on foreign sources as possible. If we connect the spare parts manufacturing line to commercial offsets, we can also recoup a portion of the costs.


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## Arsalan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> As far as complete manufacturing goes, I'd just focus on the JF-17. For everything else, and I mean _*everything else *_- from the next-gen fighter, to helicopters, to potentially MALE UAVs and the Hurkus trainer - I would recommend complete MRO and partial local manufacturing of commonly worn parts. We essentially just need to ensure that we can operate our goods to end-of-life with as little dependence on foreign sources as possible. If we connect the spare parts manufacturing line to commercial offsets, we can also recoup a portion of the costs.


True and agreed with. In fact, this is more out of necessity than by choice! We need to even further increase the rate of production of JF17 with it being the pet project. Also with exports in mind this is a must. Do not see those other systems being manufactured simultaneously unless some drastic up gradations are done (unlikely). However i just hope that whatever technical know how and information we get in form of, lets say, Hurkus, that is then worked upon for FUTURE projects and we do not end up debating and discussing what plane to BUY next. We need to use and apply the knowledge we have acquired during the ToT experiences to shape up platforms for future.

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## araz

Arsalan said:


> True and agreed with. In fact, this is more out of necessity than by choice! We need to even further increase the rate of production of JF17 with it being the pet project. Also with exports in mind this is a must. Do not see those other systems being manufactured simultaneously unless some drastic up gradations are done (unlikely). However i just hope that whatever technical know how and information we get in form of, lets say, Hurkus, that is then worked upon for FUTURE projects and we do not end up debating and discussing what plane to BUY next. We need to use and apply the knowledge we have acquired during the ToT experiences to shape up platforms for future.


Thank you to the two of you for having participated in a good discussion. You have highlighted a few points which I need to comment on.
Firstly the rate of JFT production is going to go up to 24. This is in my view ideal and we should not increase it beyond that . As you know we have a responsibility towards our skilled staff. 24 planes will require the necessary skilled technicians to be trained and necessary jigs and stations developed for the process to progress accordingly. You dont want quality to slip as this could cause lives and your reputation which in a market which is dominated by some big giants could be the last nail in your coffin. The problem is continuing to employ the staff and keeping them productive. Now even if you have an order book for 100 fighters and a need to have 15 fighters added to your inventory you cannot overnight increase the production line to 50 fighters. However what can be done is a gradual increase of production to 30 fighters with 15 each going to order and inventory respectively. BUt when the orders die down then is the time when you start to lose big time. You dont have enough projects to transfer staff between them and thereby ensure employment and economy of scale. The problem as always is that downgrading an industry with loss of skilled labour is a huge drain on your effort and economy. Hence we need to keep to 24 JFTs for the year.
The induction of Hurkus is another issueworthy of discussion. Firstly for a need of 30 platforms we dont need to establish facilities so agreed that we wont need more than depot level maintenance and small part manufacturing. However if a more extended need is seen as in a joint venture and combined sale, limited parts manufacturing and perhaps licence manufacturing is the way ahead. However frankly with the market choked with multiple offerings from different vendors I dont see PAF going out on a limb to acquire manufacturing rights. 
A

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## Arsalan

araz said:


> Thank you to the two of you for having participated in a good discussion. You have highlighted a few points which I need to comment on.
> Firstly the rate of JFT production is going to go up to 24. This is in my view ideal and we should not increase it beyond that . As you know we have a responsibility towards our skilled staff. 24 planes will require the necessary skilled technicians to be trained and necessary jigs and stations developed for the process to progress accordingly. You dont want quality to slip as this could cause lives and your reputation which in a market which is dominated by some big giants could be the last nail in your coffin. The problem is continuing to employ the staff and keeping them productive. Now even if you have an order book for 100 fighters and a need to have 15 fighters added to your inventory you cannot overnight increase the production line to 50 fighters. However what can be done is a gradual increase of production to 30 fighters with 15 each going to order and inventory respectively. BUt when the orders die down then is the time when you start to lose big time. You dont have enough projects to transfer staff between them and thereby ensure employment and economy of scale. The problem as always is that downgrading an industry with loss of skilled labour is a huge drain on your effort and economy. Hence we need to keep to 24 JFTs for the year.
> The induction of Hurkus is another issueworthy of discussion. Firstly for a need of 30 platforms we dont need to establish facilities so agreed that we wont need more than depot level maintenance and small part manufacturing. However if a more extended need is seen as in a joint venture and combined sale, limited parts manufacturing and perhaps license manufacturing is the way ahead. However frankly with the market choked with multiple offerings from different vendors I dont see PAF going out on a limb to acquire manufacturing rights.
> A


Agreed with the rate of production for JF17. Even though i am not particularly pleased with that 24 per year figure (i would like it to be in region of 36 or so if we are serious about exports) but still i do understand the need of it and completely agree with it. A necessity more than a choice really. We sure don't have multiple projects running where we can transfer and share resources. I just hope we get there some time! 

For Hurkus, again, i agree. There are SO many options available i am not sure how much PAC will be attracted in license production etc. All we need in manufacturing for some parts, that is, for THIS order/requirement. However any insight into the technology must not go to waste as in K8 and should be used whenever we need to look at some other platform for some other requirement in future. The parts production and technology insight will be helpful! IT SHOULD BE!

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## araz

Arsalan said:


> Agreed with the rate of production for JF17. Even though i am not particularly pleased with that 24 per year figure (i would like it to be in region of 36 or so if we are serious about exports) but still i do understand the need of it and completely agree with it. A necessity more than a choice really. We sure don't have multiple projects running where we can transfer and share resources. I just hope we get there some time!
> 
> For Hurkus, again, i agree. There are SO many options available i am not sure how much PAC will be attracted in license production etc. All we need in manufacturing for some parts, that is, for THIS order/requirement. However any insight into the technology must not go to waste as in K8 and should be used whenever we need to look at some other platform for some other requirement in future. The parts production and technology insight will be helpful! IT SHOULD BE!


Thank you for your response. One really needs to hear from an expert as to why the K8 was acquired and what limitations are there on its development. It is a fairly comprehensive subject and I am not qualified to comment on it. The other and most relevant question one needs ot ask is whether the replacement of K8 is that necessary NOW or is it something we may need to look into post 2020-25. As always we need parameters first before we start a debate. The other question is the numbers game ie how many do we need. I suspect at best around 40 to 50 max platforms. If this is true do we need to re invent the wheel. I suspect any new project will set us back 700---1Billion $ in research should we embark on our own project and at least half the price for licence production and production of parts. Is all of this worth it for 50 platforms. The million dollar question is whether a newer platform will sell as well as the K8 has done. A lot of questions to which there are no answers.!!!!
Regards

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

araz said:


> Thank you for your response. One really needs to hear from an expert as to why the K8 was acquired and what limitations are there on its development. It is a fairly comprehensive subject and I am not qualified to comment on it. The other and most relevant question one needs ot ask is whether the replacement of K8 is that necessary NOW or is it something we may need to look into post 2020-25. As always we need parameters first before we start a debate. The other question is the numbers game ie how many do we need. I suspect at best around 40 to 50 max platforms. If this is true do we need to re invent the wheel. I suspect any new project will set us back 700---1Billion $ in research should we embark on our own project and at least half the price for licence production and production of parts. Is all of this worth it for 50 platforms. The million dollar question is whether a newer platform will sell as well as the K8 has done. A lot of questions to which there are no answers.!!!!
> Regards


I believe it was bad timing that ultimately withheld the K-8 program. In the 1990s the U.S. slammed us with sanctions, which made acquiring the turbofan a problem. On top of that, our economy had some issues, and as a cost-savings measure, the PAF decided to apply a SLEP on the T-37s (which the K-8s were supposed to replace). In 1999, the JF-17 program started, and the PAF essentially focused the mainstay of its development resources on that (with a little going into the surprisingly successful Super Mushshak). The K-8 was a victim of circumstance.

At this stage, the PAF has evidently not pushed ahead with using the K-8 to entirely phase out the T-37s, it is still sticking to the Tweets in the mainstay training role. It seems the K-8s have been allocated for fighter conversion training. And I don't recall seeing any new K-8s on the procurement docket.

If the PAF is to seek a new trainer, e.g. Hurkus, I imagine they would begin by phasing out the T-37s. The K-8s would soldier on in their FCU role.

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## muhammadali233

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I believe it was bad timing that ultimately withheld the K-8 program. In the 1990s the U.S. slammed us with sanctions, which made acquiring the turbofan a problem. On top of that, our economy had some issues, and as a cost-savings measure, the PAF decided to apply a SLEP on the T-37s (which the K-8s were supposed to replace). In 1999, the JF-17 program started, and the PAF essentially focused the mainstay of its development resources on that (with a little going into the surprisingly successful Super Mushshak). The K-8 was a victim of circumstance.
> 
> At this stage, the PAF has evidently not pushed ahead with using the K-8 to entirely phase out the T-37s, it is still sticking to the Tweets in the mainstay training role. It seems the K-8s have been allocated for fighter conversion training. And I don't recall seeing any new K-8s on the procurement docket.
> 
> If the PAF is to seek a new trainer, e.g. Hurkus, I imagine they would begin by phasing out the T-37s. The K-8s would soldier on in their FCU role.


fake or new id?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

muhammadali233 said:


> fake or new id?


New ID. The @Quwa will be for website related stuff. The one I am using with my name is for personal opinions and discussions.

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## fatman17

@ arsalan do you realise India can only produce 3 tejas per year, so 24 is a very good achievement, remember that PAC is also upgrading block ls simultaneously along with overhauls of the same.

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## HRK



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## SW187

What is the cost of this aircraft?
Besides use as a trainer, I wonder if it has any light-attack or COIN capability.
It would be pretty useful if you could attach a LITENING pod.


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## fatman17

K8 Sherdils

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## Bilal9



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## mrrehan

Using K-8 since 1995 around 21-22 years I think need to look some advance training options now like YAK-130 with 2 engine it is quite reliable for training and safety. K-8 is good but nothing is forever, we need to compete in technological advancement in upcoming fighter aircraft. YAK-130 is very advance then K-8.

In view of growing Pakistan, Russian relations I think TOT in future not be very hard. Lastly the roll of aircraft as ground attack for close air support. and the number of weapons it can carry is good as well.

I personally thinks we should go for it.

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## Tank131

mrrehan said:


> Using K-8 since 1995 around 21-22 years I think need to look some advance training options now like YAK-130 with 2 engine it is quite reliable for training and safety. K-8 is good but nothing is forever, we need to compete in technological advancement in upcoming fighter aircraft. YAK-130 is very advance then K-8.
> 
> In view of growing Pakistan, Russian relations I think TOT in future not be very hard. Lastly the roll of aircraft as ground attack for close air support. and the number of weapons it can carry is good as well.
> 
> I personally thinks we should go for it.



Yak 130 is an advanced jet trainer which pilots use prior to going into fast jets, the K-8 is a basic to intermediate trainer. This is the aircraft that pilots graduate to when they have completed training on a basic fighter trainer like a turboprop Super Tucano or Hurkus. As such it depends on you pilot training regimens which one is more valuable to you. For PAF, they have dual seat fighters (Mirages and F-7) that fulfill the advance trainer role which will be replaced with simulators and dual seat JF-17s. 

PAF pilots start on super-mushak and graduate to K-8 or T-37s then into Operational Conversion Units (OCUs) which utilize dual seat fast jets for training (i.e. Mirage, FT-7, F-16B/D and in future, JF-17B). There really isnt a need for something like YAK-130.

On the other hand if you utilize a basic turboprop (super Mushak) to advanced turboprop (Hurkus or Super Tucano or Texan II), you may consider an advanced jet trainer (like Yak 130 or T-38 Talon or T-50 Golden Eagle) prior to fast jet conversion.

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## HAIDER

Bilal9 said:


>


BD is using PAK color scheme .... ???


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## Bilal9

HAIDER said:


> BD is using PAK color scheme .... ???



The first scheme is close to the Pakistani one looks like. Maybe hurriedly adopted, the second one might be different.

The pattern is different on the vertical tail (rudder) as well as wing undersides. The blue is also darker. Smoke liquid tank is white (Red for Pakistani birds). There are other subtle differences as well.


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## nana41

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Well is it more suitable for ground missions vs rouge elements ?
> 
> Can a gun be mounded on this plane ? Machine gun etc or Guided ammunition ?
> 
> I noticed egypt have like 200 of these trainers one of the biggest operators of this platform , its used by many country very successful platform
> 
> View attachment 131480
> 
> 
> It would be ideal to use smart bombs on this plane for ground operations if used for mission ?
> 
> How did the Venezuelans managed to put missiles on the plane can we put any of our missiles on this craft ?


A 5000lb thrust engine and small radar,with wing tipped Pl-3 a/a missile, two pylons for two small diameter bombs and externally mounted machine gun, it will be the best basic/advance jet trainer.


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## khanasifm

Blue and Green PAC rest CATAC

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Tank131 said:


> Yak 130 is an advanced jet trainer which pilots use prior to going into fast jets, the K-8 is a basic to intermediate trainer. This is the aircraft that pilots graduate to when they have completed training on a basic fighter trainer like a turboprop Super Tucano or Hurkus. As such it depends on you pilot training regimens which one is more valuable to you. For PAF, they have dual seat fighters (Mirages and F-7) that fulfill the advance trainer role which will be replaced with simulators and dual seat JF-17s.
> 
> PAF pilots start on super-mushak and graduate to K-8 or T-37s then into Operational Conversion Units (OCUs) which utilize dual seat fast jets for training (i.e. Mirage, FT-7, F-16B/D and in future, JF-17B). There really isnt a need for something like YAK-130.
> 
> On the other hand if you utilize a basic turboprop (super Mushak) to advanced turboprop (Hurkus or Super Tucano or Texan II), you may consider an advanced jet trainer (like Yak 130 or T-38 Talon or T-50 Golden Eagle) prior to fast jet conversion.


The PAF has been using the K-8 in the FCU role, which is basically LIFT. So, it's Super Mushshak to T-37 to K-8. If there's a K-8 replacement on the roadmap, it would be a LIFT platform. But a lot of them are expensive, not just upfront but usage too, to the point of reaching F-16/JF-17 levels. So a K-8 replacement would need to be a small jet, e.g. L-159, Freedom Trainer, etc

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## nomi007

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The PAF has been using the K-8 in the FCU role, which is basically LIFT. So, it's Super Mushshak to T-37 to K-8. If there's a K-8 replacement on the roadmap, it would be a LIFT platform. But a lot of them are expensive, not just upfront but usage too, to the point of reaching F-16/JF-17 levels. So a K-8 replacement would need to be a small jet, e.g. L-159, Freedom Trainer, etc


PAC need to start a program 
like HAL *Advanced Hawk*
to modernize the K-8 into *Super Karakorum*

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## Raider 21

nomi007 said:


> PAC need to start a program
> like HAL *Advanced Hawk*
> to modernize the K-8 into *Super Karakorum*


The HAL Advanced Hawk simply brought up the Hawk 132 (which was made to the mid 1990s standard) to the modern day standard, which is already in numerous air forces around the world. So it is not a major upgrade, it is simply a catch-up.


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## denel

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The PAF has been using the K-8 in the FCU role, which is basically LIFT. So, it's Super Mushshak to T-37 to K-8. If there's a K-8 replacement on the roadmap, it would be a LIFT platform. But a lot of them are expensive, not just upfront but usage too, to the point of reaching F-16/JF-17 levels. So a K-8 replacement would need to be a small jet, e.g. L-159, Freedom Trainer, etc


True but K-8 can be very significantly improved. I have seen them across the border in Windhoek. While it is a basic jet trainer, there is tremendous potential. Looks like no new development has taken place in a decade.

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## Raider 21

denel said:


> True but K-8 can be very significantly improved. I have seen them across the border in Windhoek. While it is a basic jet trainer, there is tremendous potential. Looks like no new development has taken place in a decade.


Agreed...


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

denel said:


> True but K-8 can be very significantly improved. I have seen them across the border in Windhoek. While it is a basic jet trainer, there is tremendous potential. Looks like no new development has taken place in a decade.


Indeed. No reason why the K-8 can't be given a new higher thrust turbofan, new avionics suite and potentially even radar.

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## Readerdefence

We can use JL9 wp13 engine which can give mach 1.5


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## denel

Readerdefence said:


> We can use JL9 wp13 engine which can give mach 1.5


No that is not possible, k-8 will remain a sub-sonic aircraft; its design does not support exceeding 0.9 mach.

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## fatman17

K8 Sherdils

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## Bilal9

Tank131 said:


> Yak 130 is an advanced jet trainer which pilots use prior to going into fast jets, the K-8 is a basic to intermediate trainer. This is the aircraft that pilots graduate to when they have completed training on a basic fighter trainer like a turboprop Super Tucano or Hurkus. As such it depends on you pilot training regimens which one is more valuable to you. For PAF, they have dual seat fighters (Mirages and F-7) that fulfill the advance trainer role which will be replaced with simulators and dual seat JF-17s.
> 
> PAF pilots start on super-mushak and graduate to K-8 or T-37s then into Operational Conversion Units (OCUs) which utilize dual seat fast jets for training (i.e. Mirage, FT-7, F-16B/D and in future, JF-17B). There really isnt a need for something like YAK-130.
> 
> On the other hand if you utilize a basic turboprop (super Mushak) to advanced turboprop (Hurkus or Super Tucano or Texan II), you may consider an advanced jet trainer (like Yak 130 or T-38 Talon or T-50 Golden Eagle) prior to fast jet conversion.



In BAF use, Yak 130 is replacing the Czech L39 in AJT training role. Although I suspect more advanced LET aircraft versions were available.


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## CHACHA"G"

Little work on Air Frame , new engine and better and advance AV and EW suits with any small radar make it very best Basic to Moderate Trainee Bird . Only 250million $$$ and we can use this bird even for COINS


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## fatman17



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## araz

denel said:


> True but K-8 can be very significantly improved. I have seen them across the border in Windhoek. While it is a basic jet trainer, there is tremendous potential. Looks like no new development has taken place in a decade.


I think unfortinately the Chinese have moved on to L15 from JL9 and trying to actively support those programmes. I think PAF is fully committed with its full work force fulfilling orders of Mashaqs and JFT and therefors its current focus is also not on the K8. The other thing to note is whether there is a need for such improvement and what does PAC get out of the financial outlays and what is the demand for a trianer like K8. Where there has been demand we have seen investment and improvements so perhaps the cost is not worth the benefit. Is it then a case of PAF thinking of better and more scientific yet cost efficient ways of dealing with the intermediate trainer conundrum? Or are we waiting for JFT and use it as LIFT and keep K8 at current levels to teach trainee pilots good basics of flying with nonmodernized cockpit.
A

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## khanasifm

There are total of 39 k8 with 22 with no 1 sqn and 17 with academy, not sure how much life is left with t37s perhaps adding another 17 -18 to bring academy strength to 34 /35 would mean end of t37s but I think jf17 is taking precedence

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## fatman17

khanasifm said:


> There are total of 39 k8 with 22 with no 1 sqn and 17 with academy, not sure how much life is left with t37s perhaps adding another 17 -18 to bring academy strength to 34 /35 would mean end of t37s but I think jf17 is taking precedence


We recently got a bunch of Turkish T37s which will be used to refurbish the existing Tweet fleet, and so the T37 ain't going anywhere for a while.


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## blinder

Please find enclosed an article on the K-8 in Scramble (in separate parts).

There are a lot of assumptions (coloured red) but it is an overview of most information available in public sources, packed into one space.

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## Windjammer



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## syed_yusuf

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 403544



is this shot from a movie in making


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## khanasifm

Not sure for how long paf will be flying t37


No 1 fcu- has 19 k8p while rest at academy so 20 for total of 39 just add another 20 to academy and call it a day for t37 but I guess $$ all going toward jf


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## Raider 21




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## hassan1

PAF Sherdil Team aircraft's new color scheme.

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## muhammadali233

hassan1 said:


> PAF Sherdil Team aircraft's new color scheme.
> 
> View attachment 407438
> View attachment 407439


overwriting ? why


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## khanasifm

Did paf order any new k8 to start replacing t37??? So aerobatic team getting f dictated birds??


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## fatman17

khanasifm said:


> Not sure for how long paf will be flying t37
> 
> 
> No 1 fcu- has 19 k8p while rest at academy so 20 for total of 39 just add another 20 to academy and call it a day for t37 but I guess $$ all going toward jf


Far longer than you and l would like. Remember just got ~35 tweets donated by TuAF recently, which will probably used for spares.


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## fatman17

khanasifm said:


> Did paf order any new k8 to start replacing t37??? So aerobatic team getting f dictated birds??


No. Just got the fleet upgraded in the last few years.


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## GriffinsRule

This is one unattractive paint scheme

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## fatman17

GriffinsRule said:


> This is one unattractive paint scheme


You're being too nice.


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## Windjammer



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## DarX

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 407636



I would've preferred the Sherdils to be equipped with the JF-17. It is a more powerful jet and is more strongly associated with Pakistan so it carries great symbolism.

But the K-8 Karakoram is a lovely plane too and an asset for the force.


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## Talon

muhammadali233 said:


> overwriting ? why


A/C SERIAL is written behind it..



DarX said:


> I would've preferred the Sherdils to be equipped with the JF-17. It is a more powerful jet and is more strongly associated with Pakistan so it carries great symbolism.
> 
> But the K-8 Karakoram is a lovely plane too and an asset for the force.


JF-17 has more expense per sortie than k-8 moreover SHERDILS are k-8 operators so...!


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## hassan1



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## Fledgingwings

Bravo Zulu !


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## DarX

I want to ask one question. As per my information, Pakistan was a senior partner in the development of the K-8 Karakoram, and since more than 500 have been built for use by many air forces around the world, does Pakistan receive a royalty from this program?


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## Itaalvi

DarX said:


> I want to ask one question. As per my information, Pakistan was a senior partner in the development of the K-8 Karakoram, and since more than 500 have been built for use by many air forces around the world, does Pakistan receive a royalty from this program?


Yes.


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## DarX

Any source to back that up?


Itaalvi said:


> Yes.


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## Itaalvi

DarX said:


> Any source to back that up?


Not remembered but few years back I read it in Halal magazine where Kamra head is answering a journalist about that but he clearly mentioned it is not fifty fifty but still Pakistan gets the royalty further commission if Pakistan manage to get the customer.


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## fatman17



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## hassan1



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## Thorough Pro

not bad.



hassan1 said:


> View attachment 408327
> View attachment 408328
> View attachment 408330
> View attachment 408331
> View attachment 408332
> View attachment 408333


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## Windjammer



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## syed_yusuf

not bad at all


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## razgriz19

K8 of Venezuela

        View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram

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## Incog_nito

Will PAC going to work with Chinese on K-8 Block-II with some new design features:
Composites

*DSI Air Intake*
*In-flight refueling system*
*Landing Gears like JF-17s (retract within fuselage)*
*Internal 20 m.m gun*
*7 External Hard points with 2-2.5 tons Payload or more*
*New Engine*
*Better Avionics*


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## syed_yusuf

Oxair Online said:


> Will PAC going to work with Chinese on K-8 Block-II with some new design features:
> Composites
> 
> *DSI Air Intake*
> *In-flight refueling system*
> *Landing Gears like JF-17s (retract within fuselage)*
> *Internal 20 m.m gun*
> *7 External Hard points with 2-2.5 tons Payload or more*
> *New Engine*
> *Better Avionics*


Why?


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## fatman17

Oxair Online said:


> Will PAC going to work with Chinese on K-8 Block-II with some new design features:
> Composites
> 
> *DSI Air Intake*
> *In-flight refueling system*
> *Landing Gears like JF-17s (retract within fuselage)*
> *Internal 20 m.m gun*
> *7 External Hard points with 2-2.5 tons Payload or more*
> *New Engine*
> *Better Avionics*


Then might as well go for JL9 and L15


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## Talon

Oxair Online said:


> Will PAC going to work with Chinese on K-8 Block-II with some new design features:
> Composites
> 
> *DSI Air Intake*
> *In-flight refueling system*
> *Landing Gears like JF-17s (retract within fuselage)*
> *Internal 20 m.m gun*
> *7 External Hard points with 2-2.5 tons Payload or more*
> *New Engine*
> *Better Avionics*


Never ever for most of these features..


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## fatman17

Armed JL8 / K8

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## DarX

Oxair Online said:


> Will PAC going to work with Chinese on K-8 Block-II with some new design features:
> Composites
> 
> *DSI Air Intake*
> *In-flight refueling system*
> *Landing Gears like JF-17s (retract within fuselage)*
> *Internal 20 m.m gun*
> *7 External Hard points with 2-2.5 tons Payload or more*
> *New Engine*
> *Better Avionics*




*DSI Air Intake - Not required as the DSI is a replacement for a splitter plate which is itself not installed on the K-8.*
*In-flight refueling system - Not required as the K-8 is not required to undertake such long range missions.*
*Landing Gears like JF-17s (retract within fuselage) - No extra benefit*
*Internal 20 m.m gun - Perhaps they might but then a redesign would be required and that may not be feasible.*
*7 External Hard points with 2-2.5 tons Payload or more - Wing can be stressed for 7 hardpoints but every plane has its limits and 2-2.5 tons payload is most likely too much for such a small plane.*
*New Engine - If they require extra power, they might install a new engine.*
*Better Avionics - Will probably be updated as time goes by.*

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## Windjammer

PAF Sherdil Team in new colours over Sea View, Karachi.

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## khanasifm

So young pilots with 120 hours on t37/k8 plus another 50 or so on k8 fcu totalling around 170 jet hours go to f7pg and mirages get another 100 or so then some
Of them can go to jf and f16 ocu at peshawar and mushaf while rest continue on mirage and pg when both mirage and pg are gone then ?? I guess ...


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## Talon

khanasifm said:


> So young pilots with 120 hours on t37/k8 plus another 50 or so on k8 fcu totalling around 170 jet hours go to f7pg and mirages get another 100 or so then some
> Of them can go to jf and f16 ocu at peshawar and mushaf while rest continue on mirage and pg when both mirage and pg are gone then ?? I guess ...


170 hours on k8 are too much,cadets who fly k8 in AJFT and FCU may reach 100 hours on k8 but no chance for T37 riders.
Secondly,100 hours on f7/mirage are too less to go to F16/JF17,people usually go there when they are senior Flt Lts or Sqn Ldrs.Only * Flying Officers were sent on F16 right after EFCC(probably for the 1st time in PAF) 2 years back and NONE has been sent on JF17 after fcu or even with 100+ hours on f7/mirage,only Sqn Ldrs or senior are sent on JF17.
Even if u are an F16 pilot doesnt mean u'll always remain there,F16 pilots have been posted on mirages,k8 and even Helis.

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## ghazi52

Over Sea View, Karachi.

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## khanasifm

Hodor said:


> 170 hours on k8 are too much,cadets who fly k8 in AJFT and FCU may reach 100 hours on k8 but no chance for T37 riders.
> Secondly,100 hours on f7/mirage are too less to go to F16/JF17,people usually go there when they are senior Flt Lts or Sqn Ldrs.Only * Flying Officers were sent on F16 right after EFCC(probably for the 1st time in PAF) 2 years back and NONE has been sent on JF17 after fcu or even with 100+ hours on f7/mirage,only Sqn Ldrs or senior are sent on JF17.
> Even if u are an F16 pilot doesnt mean u'll always remain there,F16 pilots have been posted on mirages,k8 and even Helis.



50 on mashaq then 120 on t37/k8 at academy before graduating then another 50 is so at fcu make total 170 jet hours


----------



## STRANGER BIRD

*A formation of K-8 taxiing out. *
*



*


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## Windjammer




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## syed_yusuf

Why is paf waisting money different color schemes


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## Raider 21

Hodor said:


> 170 hours on k8 are too much,cadets who fly k8 in AJFT and FCU may reach 100 hours on k8 but no chance for T37 riders.
> Secondly,100 hours on f7/mirage are too less to go to F16/JF17,people usually go there when they are senior Flt Lts or Sqn Ldrs.Only * *Flying Officers were sent on F16 right after EFCC*(probably for the 1st time in PAF) 2 years back and NONE has been sent on JF17 after fcu or even with 100+ hours on f7/mirage,only Sqn Ldrs or senior are sent on JF17.
> Even if u are an F16 pilot doesnt mean u'll always remain there,F16 pilots have been posted on mirages,k8 and even Helis.


Sohail Aman is the man behind the program that allowed fresh graduates to go directly to F-16s without being operational on other platforms. And yes....you can be an F-16 pilot, but AHQ might send you to do CCS on Mirages, question on experience, grades, performance.....and connections (rare but if there are, you have double the pressure).


----------



## Talon

Knuckles said:


> Sohail Aman is the man behind the program that allowed fresh graduates to go directly to F-16s without being operational on other platforms. And yes....you can be an F-16 pilot, but AHQ might send you to do CCS on Mirages, question on experience, grades, performance.....and connections (rare but if there are, you have double the pressure).


Yeah he had a plan to send young guys on viper and tried it but pilots only from 2 or 3 consecutive courses were sent.. none after that (maybe the results werent as expected).


----------



## Raider 21

Hodor said:


> Yeah he had a plan to send young guys on viper and tried it but pilots only from 2 or 3 consecutive courses were sent.. none after that (maybe the results werent as expected).


Yup....or requirements.

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## khanasifm

So in usaf cadets graduating from academy and conversion goes straight to f-16 I think it's just paf being more cautious otherwise most mordern af with f-16s like Turkish, usaf, Israelis etc after fcu they got straight to f-16 plus paf has options other than f-16 check paf f-16 sqn there is usually more majors or sqn leader then any other ranks

Usaf, 90 hours on primary and jet training. (T37/t6) and 120 hours on t38 (fcu) then f16 conversion so after total 210 hours of flying  


http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a475920.pdf


----------



## DarX

syed_yusuf said:


> Why is paf waisting money different color schemes



How much money does a coat of paint cost? This is a non-issue.



khanasifm said:


> So in usaf cadets graduating from academy and conversion goes straight to f-16 I think it's just paf being more cautious otherwise most mordern af with f-16s like Turkish, usaf, Israelis etc after fcu they got straight to f-16 plus paf has options other than f-16 check paf f-16 sqn there is usually more majors or sqn leader then any other ranks



I don't think that is the case in America. The USAF has a huge fleet of different trainer planes, from basic T-6 to the T-38 which is a supersonic trainer jet that provides LIFT experience to the pilots. So the USAF pilots gradually come on to the F-16. As the F-16 is their common jet, it functions in a similar manner to our older planes such as the Mirages in the PAF. The best pilots are then promoted to fly the F-22.

So the PAF practices are not at all different from the leading air forces of the world.

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## Khadim e Darul Ehsaan

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 415751
> View attachment 415752
> 
> Armed JL8 / K8


R these rocket pods ???
Can thy be used as anti tank weapon or if thy donot then where else thy can be used???


----------



## Tank131

They are rocket pods. The PAF may syart using K-8 as a CAS option. That being said, being a jet, i think its too expensive for that role against Taliban. The advanded turboprop like Hurkus, Super Tucano, and Texan II are better suited for such roles. The PAF is supposedly considering an order of Hurkus for that exact purpose.

That being said, love the K-8. Something about it screams little jet that could.

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## Talon

DarX said:


> How much money does a coat of paint cost? This is a non-issue.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think that is the case in America. The USAF has a huge fleet of different trainer planes, from basic T-6 to the T-38 which is a supersonic trainer jet that provides LIFT experience to the pilots. So the USAF pilots gradually come on to the F-16. As the F-16 is their common jet, it functions in a similar manner to our older planes such as the Mirages in the PAF. The best pilots are then promoted to fly the F-22.
> 
> So the PAF practices are not at all different from the leading air forces of the world.


This is a very wrong perception that only best pilots are on best planes (f-16 in case of paf).There are skilled pilots on every plane be it an f16 or an old mirage.


----------



## DarX

Hodor said:


> This is a very wrong perception that only best pilots are on best planes (f-16 in case of paf).There are skilled pilots on every plane be it an f16 or an old mirage.



Actually all the air forces and air lines always choose their best pilots for their best planes. I know PIA does that before it allows its pilots to command the jumbos. The PAF does that for the F-22 and even the Soviet Union chose their best pilots for the latest jets they inducted.


----------



## Talon

DarX said:


> Actually all the air forces and air lines always choose their best pilots for their best planes. I know PIA does that before it allows its pilots to command the jumbos. The PAF does that for the F-22 and even the Soviet Union chose their best pilots for the latest jets they inducted.


U cant compare an airline with an airforce...they both are two different worlds.
First of all if a pilot is good at mirage doesnt mean he will also be good at F-16(both jets are of different roles)
A good F-16 pilot will not always be a good K8 instructor.
A good F-16 interceptor pilot will not be as good in bombing as are certain mirage pilots who even fly @ 200AGL at night and practice bombings.
Similarly if a pilot has spent all his career on a mirage(a french system) and is expert at it will maybe have tough time training on an f16(US system)
.
If all BEST pilots are posted on F-16 then this will lead to sagregation and then to phobia of NOT BEING A GOOD PILOT if u arent on F16.

And remember ACM is not always from F-16 and he surely is one of the best pilots of the AF.Current airchief is OC of a PG squadron.

U'll find pilots on an F-7 who are far superior than an F-16 pilot.
Paf recently posted F16 pilots on helis and mirages...it must be stupid to post best pilots on helicopters and mirages.DAMN SON



DarX said:


> . The PAF does that for the F-22 and even the Soviet Union chose their best pilots for the latest jets they inducted.


I didnt know PAF had F22s :p

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## MastanKhan

Hodor said:


> U cant compare an airline with an airforce...they both are two different worlds.
> First of all if a pilot is good at mirage doesnt mean he will also be good at F-16(both jets are of different roles)
> A good F-16 pilot will not always be a good K8 instructor.
> A good F-16 interceptor pilot will not be as good in bombing as are certain mirage pilots who even fly @ 200AGL at night and practice bombings.
> Similarly if a pilot has spent all his career on a mirage(a french system) and is expert at it will maybe have tough time training on an f16(US system)
> .
> If all BEST pilots are posted on F-16 then this will lead to sagregation and then to phobia of NOT BEING A GOOD PILOT if u arent on F16.
> 
> And remember ACM is not always from F-16 and he surely is one of the best pilots of the AF.Current airchief is OC of a PG squadron.
> 
> U'll find pilots on an F-7 who are far superior than an F-16 pilot.
> Paf recently posted F16 pilots on helis and mirages...it must be stupid to post best pilots on helicopters and mirages.DAMN SON
> 
> 
> I didnt know PAF had F22s :p



Hi,

There must be a reason for the pilots being posted to mirage or helicopters from F16's---.

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## Raider 21

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> There must be a reason for the pilots being posted to mirage or helicopters from F16's---.


Helicopters most of the time due to them getting suspended from flying. Happens a lot.....but in the early days of the introduction of the F-16, the requirement was to have pilots who had normally topped the F-6 and Mirage conversion courses to get selected for the F-16 conversion course. Now it largely depends on grades AND requirements set by the F-16 OCU. The F-16 is easy to fly, just hard to master its employment of the multi-role status.

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## Talon

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> There must be a reason for the pilots being posted to mirage or helicopters from F16's---.


Sometimes pilots are suspended and sometimes just normal rotation(PAF mostly ignores how good are u on a particular aircraft and still posts u on another plane...this mostly happens due to OCs.)


----------



## Raider 21

Hodor said:


> Sometimes pilots are suspended and sometimes just normal rotation(PAF mostly ignores how good are u on a particular aircraft and still posts u on another plane...this mostly happens due to OCs.)


Agreed. You could be a F-16 operational pilot and get posted to CCS on Mirages. But a lot of this is done on their record and merit on different platforms. PAF still has a mix of pilots who are either good at flying or studies, very rare to have both. If one excels in either way, then most of the time it leads to progression to another aircraft conversion. Individual cases vary.


----------



## MastanKhan

Hodor said:


> Sometimes pilots are suspended and sometimes just normal rotation(PAF mostly ignores how good are u on a particular aircraft and still posts u on another plane...this mostly happens due to OCs.)



Hi,

Basic rule of thumb is---as you excel in your abilities and are promoted to a higher plateau---you don't get demoted.

So---from an F16 to a mirage or a chopper is devaluation---

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## Talon

Knuckles said:


> Agreed. You could be a F-16 operational pilot and get posted to CCS on Mirages. But a lot of this is done on their record and merit on different platforms. PAF still has a mix of pilots who are either good at flying or studies, very rare to have both. If one excels in either way, then most of the time it leads to progression to another aircraft conversion. Individual cases vary.


I know a mirage pilot who is barely 5.5 ft in height and 46kgs in weight and still a skilled pilot in flying as well as studies...even fasts in ramzan which most pilots dont



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Basic rule of thumb is---as you excel in your abilities and are promoted to a higher plateau---you don't get demoted.
> 
> So---from an F16 to a mirage or a chopper is devaluation---


Not in PAF...Skilled pilots are on every aircraft.

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## denel

Hodor said:


> I know a mirage pilot who is barely 5.5 ft in height and 46kgs in weight and still a skilled pilot in flying as well as studies...even fasts in ramzan which most pilots dont
> 
> 
> Not in PAF...Skilled pilots are on every aircraft.


Height is not a requirement for pilots.


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## Talon

denel said:


> Height is not a requirement for pilots.


Well actually there is...163cm or 5.4 ft and there is also an upper limit.
But that wasnt my point..my point was that he is not a strong guy like a soldier/or most pilots are but is still better than many of them.
Being physically strong matters a lot when u are fighter pilot and if u arent that strong and still a good pilot then KUDOS.


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## Raider 21

Hodor said:


> I know a mirage pilot who is barely 5.5 ft in height and 46kgs in weight and still a skilled pilot in flying as well as studies...even fasts in ramzan which most pilots dont


I know a PAF pilot who is 59, 72 kg and and is still actively flying (his coursemate is the current air chief).....individual cases vary.

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## denel

Hodor said:


> Well actually there is...163cm or 5.4 ft and there is also an upper limit.
> But that wasnt my point..my point was that he is not a strong guy like a soldier/or most pilots are but is still better than many of them.
> Being physically strong matters a lot when u are fighter pilot and if u arent that strong and still a good pilot then KUDOS.


You dont need height; height is a negative in high g's.

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## Talon

denel said:


> You dont need height; height is a negative in high g's.


Thats why i said there's an upper limit...stop arguing on a useless point.
There are tall and short,slim and fat pilots...THE END.


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## Raider 21

Hodor said:


> Thats why i said there's an upper limit...stop arguing on a useless point.
> There are tall and short,slim and *fat pilots*...THE END.


After the rank of Wing Commander.....most fit in that category in PAF.

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## denel

Hodor said:


> Thats why i said there's an upper limit...stop arguing on a useless point.
> There are tall and short,slim and fat pilots...THE END.


man, you better get control on your writing.... there is no argument.... period. Stop making this a i said this you said that.

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## Talon

denel said:


> man, you better get control on your writing.... there is no argument.... period. Stop making this a i said this you said that.


and another user added to my ignore list..


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## MastanKhan

Hodor said:


> and another user added to my ignore list..



Your posts are worthless---. You may know someone here and there---daddy---uncle---cousin---a friend---other than that---there is nothing original---.

The person in question in the post is a professional---you and your daddy's squardon's experience put together won't get close to what he knows---.

We have worked very hard to build this website for over a decade---and have gathered professionals from many a countries to listen to their honest opinions---and turds like you come over here and destroy our hard work---.

Take your worthless posts somewhere else---go join some other board---.

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## Talon

MastanKhan said:


> Your posts are worthless---. You may know someone here and there---daddy---uncle---cousin---a friend---other than that---there is nothing original---.
> 
> The person in question in the post is a professional---you and your daddy's squardon's experience put together won't get close to what he knows---.
> 
> We have worked very hard to build this website for over a decade---and have gathered professionals from many a countries to listen to their honest opinions---and turds like you come over here and destroy our hard work---.
> 
> Take your worthless posts somewhere else---go join some other board---.


And the level of ur professionalism is calling military personnel TRAITORS AND INCOMPETENT while u sit abroad filling ur account with dollars..If thats what professionalism is then SORRY i am ok with my posts being worthless bcuz I dont call our soldiers traitors and try to prove myself some highly experienced professional.

And how come a person who isnt in a certain profession is more experienced than a person who is actually in that profession?..never heard of this stupid logic before.

Last but not least u dont own this forum,its free for everyone and everyone has got right to say whatever he wants...u've got problem with my posts then stop noticing them.

*BTW the first person added in my ignore list were you,next time kindly mind ur own business and not interfere in others' arguments(*and which has already ended).

Here's a saying for folks like u:

*BEGAANI SHADI ME ABDULLAH DEWANAA*


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## MastanKhan

Hodor said:


> And the level of ur professionalism is calling military personnel TRAITORS AND INCOMPETENT while u sit abroad filling ur account with dollars..If thats what professionalism is then SORRY i am ok with my posts being worthless bcuz I dont call our soldiers traitors and try to prove myself some highly experienced professional.
> 
> And how come a person who isnt in a certain profession is more experienced than a person who is actually in that profession?..never heard of this stupid logic before.
> 
> Last but not least u dont own this forum,its free for everyone and everyone has got right to say whatever he wants...u've got problem with my posts then stop noticing them.
> 
> *BTW the first person added in my ignore list were you,next time kindly mind ur own business and not interfere in others' arguments(*and which has already ended).
> 
> Here's a saying for folks like u:
> 
> *BEGAANI SHADI ME ABDULLAH DEWANAA*



Hi,

My account is not filled with dollars and will never be---. My money will go to my mother---she will distribute it to the needy---for their kids schooling---for their hospital and surgeries or other needs---. I live an average reasonable lifestyle.

Indeed---I don't own this forum---but I was part of those who built it from when it was nothing in 2005 to where it is now---so that you can come here and post---brag about it and not to destroy or ruin the integrity of this forum with the likes of you or anyone else---so learn and respect.

How would a professional in pak military know more than me---regarding strategy and tactics---what would make him know more---. Just because he is a general---you think he would know more---.

Young man---the library in my small town holds more books than the main library of the pakistani military consortium or any other library in pakistan---+ the unlimited access to all the libraries in my region.

Their and my source of learning is no different---where they have access to 5 books on a subject matter---I have access to 5000 books---.

I don't want to tell you too much.

You better learn to behave and respect our foreign guests on this forum---they are an asset---.

Posters like you are a dime a dozen---.

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## Talon

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> My account is not filled with dollars and will never be---. My money will go to my mother---she will distribute it to the needy---for their kids schooling---for their hospital and surgeries or other needs---. I live an average reasonable lifestyle.
> 
> Indeed---I don't own this forum---but I was part of those who built it from when it was nothing in 2005 to where it is now---so that you can come here and post---brag about it and not to destroy or ruin the integrity of this forum with the likes of you or anyone else---so learn and respect.
> 
> How would a professional in pak military know more than me---regarding strategy and tactics---what would make him know more---. Just because he is a general---you think he would know more---.
> 
> Young man---the library in my small town holds more books than the main library of the pakistani military consortium or any other library in pakistan---+ the unlimited access to all the libraries in my region.
> 
> Their and my source of learning is no different---where they have access to 5 books on a subject matter---I have access to 5000 books---.
> 
> I don't want to tell you too much.
> 
> You better learn to behave and respect our foreign guests on this forum---they are an asset---.
> 
> Posters like you are a dime a dozen---.


So u are the most pious,obedient,humble,intelligent,knowledgeable etc etc person..in short an ideal person.
Thus I cant argue with u I can just ignore u.. so good luck with ur Fictitious and Ideal life in which u are nauzubillah all knowing person.


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## Tps43

Knuckles said:


> After the rank of Wing Commander.....most fit in that category in PAF.


I think U havnt seen AVM Haseeb paracha.

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## MastanKhan

Hodor said:


> So u are the most pious,obedient,humble,intelligent,knowledgeable etc etc person..in short an ideal person.
> Thus I cant argue with u I can just ignore u.. so good luck with ur Fictitious and Ideal life in which u are nauzubillah all knowing person.



Hi,

Not know it all---but know more than your generals---. Thank you.

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## Raider 21

tps77 said:


> I think U havnt seen AVM Haseeb paracha.


Used to go to his house when I was living at Sargodha.....and I said most (there are a few exceptions here and there).

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## Talon

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Not know it all---but know more than your generals---. Thank you.


U think u know more than a General,who has spent his whole career in field/office/practice(whatever u call it),just by reading books in a foreign country..WOW!



tps77 said:


> I think U havnt seen AVM Haseeb paracha.


There is an OC of a mirage sqn who sits in the cockpit first and puts his belly in the cockpit later..

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## Tps43

Knuckles said:


> Used to go to his house when I was living at Sargodha.....and I said most (there are a few exceptions here and there).


I was just kidding around



Hodor said:


> U think u know more than a General,who has spent his whole career in field/office/practice(whatever u call it),just by reading books in a foreign country..WOW!
> 
> 
> There is an OC of a mirage sqn who sits in the cockpit first and puts his belly in the cockpit later..


 and that too In mirage who's cockpit is smaller I can just wonder what he may look like
But last CAS had conditioned promotions with medical fitness , I remember All DCAS's used to go to gyms straight after office timings

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## Mentee

Hodor said:


> U think u know more than a General,who has spent his whole career in field/office/practice(whatever u call it),just by reading books in a foreign country..WOW!


paf guys goes to that very same foreign country to read a specific catalogue of those very same books for training purposes which you've just disregarded

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## MastanKhan

Hodor said:


> U think u know more than a General,who has spent his whole career in field/office/practice(whatever u call it),just by reading books in a foreign country..WOW!
> 
> 
> There is an OC of a mirage sqn who sits in the cockpit first and puts his belly in the cockpit later..



Hi,

He is a great battle planner---he is a great fighter---but it does not mean that he has great tactical or strategic understanding of how to deal with the U SA---.

These pakistani generals are dime a dozen on pak TV channels---and others who don't show up---because they are dumber than those in front of the screen.

And those who show up---if that is what your pride of uniform is---it is a shame---.

Their assessment is pathetic---their analysis is ridiculous---all their projections and strategies have been a failure---and if this is your pride and choice of the litter---you don't have nothing to be proud of.

Tell me---where do these generals get their knowledge and training from---do you think that someone waves a magic wand for them---or do you think that they are put into a super computer and as they come out of the other side---they are prepared and ready.

They get their training from the general principals of warfare of historic precedence from books that everyone has access to.

Children---.

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## Raider 21

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Not know it all---but know more than your generals---. Thank you.





MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> He is a great battle planner---he is a great fighter---but it does not mean that he has great tactical or strategic understanding of how to deal with the U SA---.
> 
> These pakistani generals are dime a dozen on pak TV channels---and others who don't show up---because they are dumber than those in front of the screen.
> 
> And those who show up---if that is what your pride of uniform is---it is a shame---.
> 
> Their assessment is pathetic---their analysis is ridiculous---all their projections and strategies have been a failure---and if this is your pride and choice of the litter---you don't have nothing to be proud of.
> 
> Tell me---where do these generals get their knowledge and training from---do you think that someone waves a magic wand for them---or do you think that they are put into a super computer and as they come out of the other side---they are prepared and ready.
> 
> They get their training from the general principals of warfare of historic precedence from books that everyone has access to.
> 
> Children---.


Just out of curiosity how can there be a solution to this boss ?? Or there's enjoyment in all of this mediocrity you describe for the armed forces.


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## MastanKhan

Knuckles said:


> Just out of curiosity how can there be a solution to this boss ?? Or there's enjoyment in all of this mediocrity you describe for the armed forces.



Hi,

I do not know what to tell you my man---but if you see the serial ERTUGRUL---it will explain you a lot.

When a pakistani general says " we will make a vietnam of the U S in afg " at the onset and before the onset of afg invasion---what can you tell that fool---.

What do you tell a pakistani that there were 4.5 million dead vietnamese---and land destroyed for years to cultivate---even though there were close to 50 thousand american dead---.

Now there are a million and a half dead afg's and only 2800 dead americans ---see the difference in the american efficiency.

To change---I think that you need to start at the academy level---the education and mindset of the military recruits needs to change---take the hatred / anger out.

The american soldier / general never brags about dying for the country---it is already understood that he will die for the country---but he is trained to kill the enemy rather than be killed---. That is a fundamental difference in training and belief---and no---the american soldier is not afraid to die for his country---.

I have sold cars to thoiusands of them over the years---many a soldiers---many a families with their sons in the military---no one ever bragged about their son being a martyr for the country---or no soldier told me he is ready to die---it was understood that he would do his DUTY when the time comes---.

The fish rots from the head---the rot starts from the top---. The top generals are corrupt---Gen Raheel's friend---that general even recruited other officers to be corrupt---.

Stop the national anthem in schools---and start with a pledge of allegiance at the begining of the class----

" I pledge allegiance to the flag of the Islamic republic of Pakistan---one nation under God---prosperity and happiness for all ".

The solution is a chinese style revolution---.

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## ziaulislam

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I do not know what to tell you my man---but if you see the serial ERTUGRUL---it will explain you a lot.
> 
> When a pakistani general says " we will make a vietnam of the U S in afg " at the onset and before the onset of afg invasion---what can you tell that fool---.
> 
> What do you tell a pakistani that there were 4.5 million dead vietnamese---and land destroyed for years to cultivate---even though there were close to 50 thousand american dead---.
> 
> Now there are a million and a half dead afg's and only 2800 dead americans ---see the difference in the american efficiency.
> 
> To change---I think that you need to start at the academy level---the education and mindset of the military recruits needs to change---take the hatred / anger out.
> 
> The american soldier / general never brags about dying for the country---it is already understood that he will die for the country---but he is trained to kill the enemy rather than be killed---. That is a fundamental difference in training and belief---and no---the american soldier is not afraid to die for his country---.
> 
> I have sold cars to thoiusands of them over the years---many a soldiers---many a families with their sons in the military---no one ever bragged about their son being a martyr for the country---or no soldier told me he is ready to die---it was understood that he would do his DUTY when the time comes---.
> 
> The fish rots from the head---the rot starts from the top---. The top generals are corrupt---Gen Raheel's friend---that general even recruited other officers to be corrupt---.
> 
> Stop the national anthem in schools---and start with a pledge of allegiance at the begining of the class----
> 
> " I pledge allegiance to the flag of the Islamic republic of Pakistan---one nation under God---prosperity and happiness for all ".
> 
> The solution is a chinese style revolution---.


a very important and meaningful post..

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## Raider 21

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I do not know what to tell you my man---but if you see the serial ERTUGRUL---it will explain you a lot.
> 
> When a pakistani general says " we will make a vietnam of the U S in afg " at the onset and before the onset of afg invasion---what can you tell that fool---.
> 
> What do you tell a pakistani that there were 4.5 million dead vietnamese---and land destroyed for years to cultivate---even though there were close to 50 thousand american dead---.
> 
> Now there are a million and a half dead afg's and only 2800 dead americans ---see the difference in the american efficiency.
> 
> To change---I think that you need to start at the academy level---the education and mindset of the military recruits needs to change---take the hatred / anger out.
> 
> The american soldier / general never brags about dying for the country---it is already understood that he will die for the country---but he is trained to kill the enemy rather than be killed---. That is a fundamental difference in training and belief---and no---the american soldier is not afraid to die for his country---.
> 
> I have sold cars to thoiusands of them over the years---many a soldiers---many a families with their sons in the military---no one ever bragged about their son being a martyr for the country---or no soldier told me he is ready to die---it was understood that he would do his DUTY when the time comes---.
> 
> The fish rots from the head---the rot starts from the top---. The top generals are corrupt---Gen Raheel's friend---that general even recruited other officers to be corrupt---.
> 
> Stop the national anthem in schools---and start with a pledge of allegiance at the begining of the class----
> 
> " I pledge allegiance to the flag of the Islamic republic of Pakistan---one nation under God---prosperity and happiness for all ".
> 
> The solution is a chinese style revolution---.


Why don't you be part of the solution ?? 

And don't get me started on US generals......there's a good number in there that will satisfy the level of mediocrity in Pak armed forces. Anyways it was an educational post from your point of view.

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## Talon

Mentee said:


> paf guys goes to that very same foreign country to read a specific catalogue of those very same books for training purposes which you've just disregarded


I never disregarded books...my point was that only books arent enough to make u more professional/experienced than a general who has read these BOOKS and has field experience..but ofcourse they can never compete Mr. @MastanKhan who has ONLY read these 5000+ books


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## Mentee

Hodor said:


> I never disregarded books...my point was that only books arent enough to make u more professional/experienced than a general who has read these BOOKS and has field experience..but ofcourse they can never compete Mr. @MastanKhan who has ONLY read these 5000+ books



listen mate some folks read books some experience em. He falls into the latter category ,as far as I know . So when you experience the onslaught of romans , Arabs , changaiz and then the American war machine , yiu tend to be yearning for peace at any reasonable cost and would want to wait and prep for your turn at the time and place of your choosing. This is how empires get build------------

yiu or I may desperately want peace and security over unnecessary wars and strife but the truth is some folks are not like you and me . They get overwhelmed by the primary human instinct and that is to subdue everything and anything whatever they come in contact with just for the sake of it ------



now when he says to show the hostile forces your shining sword and reach out to the enemy ,step by step or the way yiu find it convenient, before it spreads its tentacles around you to kingdom come then whats wrong with his approach -------?



isnt it a heavenly duty of the good folks to take their high morals and humanly traits to the bad folks irrespective of the fact whether they are muslims or not before those antagonists bring their loot , plunder murder and misery to those good folks ?


so , the deal is that in order to inculcate peace and prosperity in the global heart ,good folks have to take the lead ------------


now coming to your silly assumptions . Have yiu ever wondered what is the function of a president/prime minister or a c.e.o ?


To COORDINATE things among different departments so they can run effectively --------- none comes forward and b****** in front of his seniors that, how come a guy who have got no field experience of our profession can give us a policy line ---------


one need not to be an Einstein to have a say in the public affairs . All it needs is a grip on the basics of the statehood and sound coordination skills ---



MastanKhan said:


> To change---I think that you need to start at the academy level---the education and mindset of the military recruits needs to change---take the hatred / anger out.


and of the civilian beaurucracy as well

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## Major Sam

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I do not know what to tell you my man---but if you see the serial ERTUGRUL---it will explain you a lot.
> 
> When a pakistani general says " we will make a vietnam of the U S in afg " at the onset and before the onset of afg invasion---what can you tell that fool---.
> 
> What do you tell a pakistani that there were 4.5 million dead vietnamese---and land destroyed for years to cultivate---even though there were close to 50 thousand american dead---.
> 
> Now there are a million and a half dead afg's and only 2800 dead americans ---see the difference in the american efficiency.
> 
> To change---I think that you need to start at the academy level---the education and mindset of the military recruits needs to change---take the hatred / anger out.
> 
> The american soldier / general never brags about dying for the country---it is already understood that he will die for the country---but he is trained to kill the enemy rather than be killed---. That is a fundamental difference in training and belief---and no---the american soldier is not afraid to die for his country---.
> 
> I have sold cars to thoiusands of them over the years---many a soldiers---many a families with their sons in the military---no one ever bragged about their son being a martyr for the country---or no soldier told me he is ready to die---it was understood that he would do his DUTY when the time comes---.
> 
> The fish rots from the head---the rot starts from the top---. The top generals are corrupt---Gen Raheel's friend---that general even recruited other officers to be corrupt---.
> 
> Stop the national anthem in schools---and start with a pledge of allegiance at the begining of the class----
> 
> " I pledge allegiance to the flag of the Islamic republic of Pakistan---one nation under God---prosperity and happiness for all ".
> 
> The solution is a chinese style revolution---.



It deserve Positive rating. I agree with u with my heart. 

hell of difference between ready to die or ready to kill. Motivation

Can u plz me the ink of that Turkish drama series. will really appreciate it @MastanKhan @HAKIKAT

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## MastanKhan

Hodor said:


> I never disregarded books...my point was that only books arent enough to make u more professional/experienced than a general who has read these BOOKS and has field experience..but ofcourse they can never compete Mr. @MastanKhan who has ONLY read these 5000+ books



Hi,

I have field experience---I know the americans---.



Knuckles said:


> Why don't you be part of the solution ??
> 
> And don't get me started on US generals......there's a good number in there that will satisfy the level of mediocrity in Pak armed forces. Anyways it was an educational post from your point of view.



Hi,

Trust me on this---many a U S generals are bigger imbeciles than their pakistani counterparts---.

Their only saving grace is the war machine backing them up---otherwise the tactics these dumb fcks have shown in the war in afg---iraq---syria---these fckrs are dumber than rocks.

The amazing thing is that these generals have no say persay in what weapons they can procure---the private defense sectors keeps churning out newer and deadlier weapons for them year in and year out.



Knuckles said:


> Why don't you be part of the solution ??



Hi,'I tried many a times---last time was during yemen crisis---I told them you will pay dearly if you refuse to send the pak military to yemen---I told them it was not about yemen what they were looking at---it was about pakistan in the coming season.

After 11 months---he was supposedly apologetic---admitted his failure in not understanding the situation---and I said---wtf to do now---.

They have no exposure to the world---they think they do---but no one has told them otherwise---.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I do not know what to tell you my man---but if you see the serial ERTUGRUL---it will explain you a lot.
> 
> When a pakistani general says " we will make a vietnam of the U S in afg " at the onset and before the onset of afg invasion---what can you tell that fool---.
> 
> What do you tell a pakistani that there were 4.5 million dead vietnamese---and land destroyed for years to cultivate---even though there were close to 50 thousand american dead---.
> 
> Now there are a million and a half dead afg's and only 2800 dead americans ---see the difference in the american efficiency.
> 
> To change---I think that you need to start at the academy level---the education and mindset of the military recruits needs to change---take the hatred / anger out.
> 
> The american soldier / general never brags about dying for the country---it is already understood that he will die for the country---but he is trained to kill the enemy rather than be killed---. That is a fundamental difference in training and belief---and no---the american soldier is not afraid to die for his country---.
> 
> I have sold cars to thoiusands of them over the years---many a soldiers---many a families with their sons in the military---no one ever bragged about their son being a martyr for the country---or no soldier told me he is ready to die---it was understood that he would do his DUTY when the time comes---.
> 
> The fish rots from the head---the rot starts from the top---. The top generals are corrupt---Gen Raheel's friend---that general even recruited other officers to be corrupt---.
> 
> Stop the national anthem in schools---and start with a pledge of allegiance at the begining of the class----
> 
> " I pledge allegiance to the flag of the Islamic republic of Pakistan---one nation under God---prosperity and happiness for all ".
> 
> The solution is a chinese style revolution---.


As for the Ehl-I Iman, death is like Sheb -I Arus (the wedding night). It's like the gate to freedom from prison, or a letter of discharge with honor for a soldier at the front....

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## MastanKhan

HAKIKAT said:


> As for the Ehl-I Iman, death is like Sheb -I Arus (the wedding night). It's like the gate to freedom from prison, or a letter of discharge with honor for a soldier at the front....



Hi,

If you take it to the next level---and look at the depth to which the producer/ director went---The Templars had no fear of death either---the followers of christ had no fear of death.

The depth of their commitment was astounding---the only muslims that had such commitment were the followers of the old man of the mountain

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## Raider 21

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,'I tried many a times---last time was during yemen crisis---I told them you will pay dearly if you refuse to send the pak military to yemen---I told them it was not about yemen what they were looking at---it was about pakistan in the coming season.
> 
> *After 11 months---he was supposedly apologetic---admitted his failure in not understanding the situation---and I said---wtf to do now---.*
> 
> They have no exposure to the world---they think they do---but no one has told them otherwise---.



Still not Pakistan's war......calling on Sunni soldiers in Pak Military to fight against the Houthis by the Saudi government is some of the biggest hogwash ever...military ain't there for rent. One Yemen conflict was enough for Pak military to participate in it, and it did little in return. Current participation in the Yemen conflict would only confirm rent-a-Muslim-army status with the Saudi government....

Just my own observation from experience having had the opportunity to interact and work with Pakistan, US and some of the Arab militaries.


----------



## MastanKhan

Knuckles said:


> Still not Pakistan's war......calling on Sunni soldiers in Pak Military to fight against the Houthis by the Saudi government is some of the biggest hogwash ever...military ain't there for rent. One Yemen conflict was enough for Pak military to participate in it, and it did little in return. Current participation in the Yemen conflict would only confirm rent-a-Muslim-army status with the Saudi government....
> 
> Just my own observation from experience having had the opportunity to interact and work with Pakistan, US and some of the Arab militaries.



Hi,

All God's / Allah's armies are rental / mercenary armies---if you read to learn ---you will find out.

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## Raider 21

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> All God's / Allah's armies are rental / mercenary armies---if you read to learn ---you will find out.


I understand. Cheers

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## Ultima Thule

@The Eagle @waz please clean this thread this for K-8 discussions not for geopolitical discussion

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## Talon

Mentee said:


> now coming to your silly assumptions . Have yiu ever wondered what is the function of a president/prime minister or a c.e.o ?
> 
> 
> To COORDINATE things among different departments so they can run effectively --------- none comes forward and b****** in front of his seniors abiut how come a guy who have got no field experience of our profession can give us a policy line ---------


The only lines *somehow* related to the topic are these so let me answer ur stupid logic:

A *CEO *isnt some office boy of the company or an unqualified shareholder...he is a technical man,holds a related degree and has spent his career knowing how to run a company,he is an expert at his job so when he makes a decision about the company lower staff doesnt question him bcuz they are aware that CEO knows what he's doing .

Similarly a *PM/President* is not the sole person to make legislature...any bill/legislation is first passed in NA by majority then it is passed to upper house i.e Senate and if they also pass it then it is transferred to President for approval who then signs it..so in this case as well,decisions are not made by any sole person but by experts who have studied constitution and law*.* 

Get ur facts right and then make lengthy comments on the forum.



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have field experience---I know the americans---.


If u know the american military doesnt mean u know all the militaries of the world.
Anyways U cant change my views and I cant change urs so plz stop this disussion.I dont like arguing with a senior person.
PEACE!


----------



## Mentee

Hodor said:


> A *CEO *isnt some office boy of the company or an unqualified shareholder...he is a technical man,holds a related degree and has spent his career knowing how to run a company,he is an expert at his job so when he makes a decision about the company lower staff doesnt question him bcuz they are aware that CEO knows what he's doing .
> 
> Similarly a *PM/President* is not the sole person to make legislature...any bill/legislation is first passed in NA by majority then it is passed to upper house i.e Senate and if they also pass it then it is transferred to President for approval who then signs it..so in this case as well,decisions are not made by any sole person but by experts who have studied constitution and law*.*


you are stubborn as a mule. keep living in your utopia

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## Thorough Pro

And was the war against Taliban, (so called war on terror) our war?



Knuckles said:


> Still not Pakistan's war......calling on Sunni soldiers in Pak Military to fight against the Houthis by the Saudi government is some of the biggest hogwash ever...military ain't there for rent. One Yemen conflict was enough for Pak military to participate in it, and it did little in return. Current participation in the Yemen conflict would only confirm rent-a-Muslim-army status with the Saudi government....
> 
> Just my own observation from experience having had the opportunity to interact and work with Pakistan, US and some of the Arab militaries.







Another Nishan with better angrezi



Mentee said:


> you are stubborn as a mule. keep living in your utopia

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## Talon

Mentee said:


> you are stubborn as a mule. keep living in your utopia


Yeah people like u start abusing/insulting when they have nothing to defend their point..


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## Raider 21

Thorough Pro said:


> Another Nishan with better angrezi


What do you mean by that ??


----------



## MastanKhan

Hodor said:


> If u know the american military doesnt mean u know all the militaries of the world.
> Anyways U cant change my views and I cant change urs so plz stop this disussion.I dont like arguing with a senior person.
> PEACE!



Hi,

I know american public---. Pakistanis don't understand the commitment of the american military.

I don't want to change your views---. Views are sacred and must be held strong---they are a part of your identity and the things that you cherish---.

What I am saying is that if there is an open mind---good things can happen.

I would recommend every pakistani looking for this serial ERTURGUL serial one----it should be on you tube---.

This serial had the blessings of Tayyib Erdogan---. 

I want you guys to look at the commitment of the TEMPLARS / the christians---how truly their commitment to ' their ' Lord Christ is portrayed and shown on the tv screen---fearless-selfless-ready to sacrifice---and that was the historical truth that the turkish producer displayed on the screen---.

It would make you understnd that the enemy is also commited regardless of religion and faith---.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=ertugrul+season+1

It has been dubbed in urdu---so it must have shown in pakistan---.

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## Mentee

Hodor said:


> Yeah people like u start abusing/insulting when they have nothing to defend their point..


plz don't get me started

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## MastanKhan

MastanKhan said:


> This serial had the blessings of Tayyib Erdogan---.
> 
> I want you guys to look at the commitment of the TEMPLARS / the christians---how truly their commitment to ' their ' Lord Christ is portrayed and shown on the tv screen---fearless-selfless-ready to sacrifice---and that was the historical truth that the turkish producer displayed on the screen---.
> 
> It would make you understnd that the enemy is also commited regardless of religion and faith---.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=ertugrul+season+1
> 
> It has been dubbed in urdu---so it must have shown in pakistan---.



Hi,

I did not enjoy the urdu dubbing---. I enjoyed the orininal in turkish with english caption---.

I loved listening to the spoken turkish language and the similarity between words---.

Then the original voice behind the actor---that actor has done a marvelous job---and you can onlyu enjoy it to the max listening to the exchange in his original voice----.

What a lead character he has played---amazing---.

I do not think that there was a single weak actor in the cast---.

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## Thorough Pro

My response (question) to you was above your quoted post.




Knuckles said:


> What do you mean by that ??


----------



## Raider 21

Thorough Pro said:


> My response (question) to you was above your quoted post.


I understand. Last I knew there was a good hand by the Pak government in the establishment of the Taliban. Anyways let's keep the thread for the K-8s....we can discuss this aside on other branches of the forum.


----------



## Thorough Pro

Wrong.

After soviet forces invaded Afghanistan on December 25, 1979, Afghan people picked up arms against the Soviets and their own government which had invited Soviets to help it stay in power.

US saw an opportunity and started helping Afghan people along with many other western and middle eastern countries including Pakistan (which was directly affected by influx of 3 million Afghan refugees and attacks by Afghan/Soviet jets, bomb blasts in all parts of Pakistan, etc.) by arming them to fight Soviets. The fighter became known as "Mujahideen".

After soviet withdrawal in 1987/89, Northern alliance war lords started looting, plundering and raping Pushtoons. In one particular instance they raped the daughter of a school teacher, and his students (Taliban in their language) picked up arms to take revenge for their teacher and then rapidly grew into a popular and massive force to counter NA warlords. Pakistan had ZERO role in their establishment.

Please get your facts right before blaming anyone



Knuckles said:


> I understand. Last I knew there was a good hand by the Pak government in the establishment of the Taliban. Anyways let's keep the thread for the K-8s....we can discuss this aside on other branches of the forum.

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## Raider 21

Thorough Pro said:


> Wrong.
> 
> After soviet forces invaded Afghanistan on December 25, 1979, Afghan people picked up arms against the Soviets and their own government which had invited Soviets to help it stay in power.
> 
> US saw an opportunity and started helping Afghan people along with many other western and middle eastern countries including Pakistan (which was directly affected by influx of 3 million Afghan refugees and attacks by Afghan/Soviet jets, bomb blasts in all parts of Pakistan, etc.) by arming them to fight Soviets. The fighter became known as "Mujahideen".
> 
> After soviet withdrawal in 1987/89, Northern alliance war lords started looting, plundering and raping Pushtoons. In one particular instance they raped the daughter of a school teacher, and his students (Taliban in their language) picked up arms to take revenge for their teacher and then rapidly grew into a popular and massive force to counter NA warlords. Pakistan had ZERO role in their establishment.
> 
> *Please get your facts right before blaming anyone*


Behave and keep it on K-8s please. Cheers


----------



## Thorough Pro

What the **** do you mean by behave?

Now you don't have an answer so want to run to K8's? Did you not knew this thread was about K8, when spewed your falsehood?



Knuckles said:


> Behave and keep it on K-8s please. Cheers

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## Ultima Thule

Thorough Pro said:


> What the **** do you mean by behave?
> 
> Now you don't have an answer so want to run to K8's? Did you not knew this thread was about K8, when spewed your falsehood?


----------



## Raider 21

Thorough Pro said:


> What the **** do you mean by behave?
> 
> Now you don't have an answer so want to run to K8's? Did you not knew this thread was about K8, when spewed your falsehood?


Behave. And keep the thread on K-8s...PM me if you want to resolve an argument or have a discussion.


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## Thorough Pro

Knucklehead



Knuckles said:


> Behave. And keep the thread on K-8s...PM me if you want to resolve an argument or have a discussion.

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## Advocate Pakistan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I know american public---. Pakistanis don't understand the commitment of the american military.
> 
> I don't want to change your views---. Views are sacred and must be held strong---they are a part of your identity and the things that you cherish---.
> 
> What I am saying is that if there is an open mind---good things can happen.
> 
> I would recommend every pakistani looking for this serial ERTURGUL serial one----it should be on you tube---.
> 
> This serial had the blessings of Tayyib Erdogan---.
> 
> I want you guys to look at the commitment of the TEMPLARS / the christians---how truly their commitment to ' their ' Lord Christ is portrayed and shown on the tv screen---fearless-selfless-ready to sacrifice---and that was the historical truth that the turkish producer displayed on the screen---.
> 
> It would make you understnd that the enemy is also commited regardless of religion and faith---.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=ertugrul+season+1
> 
> It has been dubbed in urdu---so it must have shown in pakistan---.



In the past 3 months, I have watched the first season 3 times, the second season almost twice the third is not with English subtitles.
Dirilis Ertugrul is a history in the making in Turkish drama industry.
And I agree with what you have said. It also shows that the enemy will not deter from using cheap means to destabilize you and to provoke you to attack them at a time when you are weak.

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## MastanKhan

Advocate Pakistan said:


> In the past 3 months, I have watched the first season 3 times, the second season almost twice the third is not with English subtitles.
> Dirilis Ertugrul is a history in the making in Turkish drama industry.
> And I agree with what you have said. It also shows that the enemy will not deter from using cheap means to destabilize you and to provoke you to attack them at a time when you are weak.



Hi,

Thank you. If you have the link to the 3rd season---please post it. I cannot find it here in the u s.

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## Advocate Pakistan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thank you. If you have the link to the 3rd season---please post it. I cannot find it here in the u s.



Tried to dig up the episodes of season 3 which I saw on youtube a couple of weeks back, may be the channel got struck down for copyrights?
Here is another, but this one has the video sideways (maybe to avoid copyright) with arabic subtitles. Season 3 episode 1 (Episode 62 of all seasons combined)





hope you'll be able to enjoy by keeping your laptop sideways or better watch it on a tablet.

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## syed_yusuf

I started watching season 1 - like the plot and the actors. look pretty real

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## Inception-06

syed_yusuf said:


> I started watching season 1 - like the plot and the actors. look pretty real



A selam Sir, what happened to pakdef.org down forever?



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thank you. If you have the link to the 3rd season---please post it. I cannot find it here in the u s.




A selam, Master how are you?


Whats the name of this Turkish series in English which you have named here, possible to see it on Netflix?

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## Khafee

Ulla said:


> A selam Sir, what happened to pakdef.org down forever?

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## Inception-06

Khafee said:


> View attachment 428305



A selam Sir, sorry but I did not get your point, someone died ?

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## Khafee

Ulla said:


> A selam Sir, sorry but I did not get your point, someone died ?


Walikum As Salam wa Rahma

The forum you mentioned. RIP 

Hope you and your loved ones, are in the best of health, and wealth.

Best Regards

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## Inception-06

Khafee said:


> Walikum As Salam wa Rahma
> 
> The forum you mentioned. RIP
> 
> Hope you and your loved ones, are in the best of health, and wealth.
> 
> Best Regards



Thank you, shukria informationn ki lie, god bless you also and your beloved one, best regards! 

@HRK so now it's official down forever, maybe they will join now this forum, I hope so, but then they must start as new Members! Well, I have cemented my membership here since one decade ago, I was 16 years old when started to read in pdf forums, pakistanidefenceforum.com was the first one also dead now than pakdef.org, I hope this forum will have a longer live!

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## syed_yusuf

Ulla said:


> A selam Sir, what happened to pakdef.org down forever?



Dont know let me try to find out.

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## MastanKhan

Ulla said:


> A selam Sir, what happened to pakdef.org down forever?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A selam, Master how are you?
> 
> 
> Whats the name of this Turkish series in English which you have named here, possible to see it on Netflix?



Ertugrul---I saw it on netflix



Knuckles said:


> Still not Pakistan's war......calling on Sunni soldiers in Pak Military to fight against the Houthis by the Saudi government is some of the biggest hogwash ever...military ain't there for rent. One Yemen conflict was enough for Pak military to participate in it, and it did little in return. Current participation in the Yemen conflict would only confirm rent-a-Muslim-army status with the Saudi government....
> 
> Just my own observation from experience having had the opportunity to interact and work with Pakistan, US and some of the Arab militaries.



Hi,

That is what was their answer at that time as you answered---. But then afterwards---things changed---and not being in position of power---they realized their fck up---because things changed rapidly and they saw themselves and the country in an extremely vulnerable position.

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## Inception-06

syed_yusuf said:


> Dont know let me try to find out.




tag me when you now more, thx !

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## Windjammer

*PAF's K-8 Trainer armed with guns, bombs and missiles for combat and light strike roles. *

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## Khafee

Windjammer said:


> *PAF's K-8 Trainer armed with guns, bombs and missiles for combat and light strike roles. *
> 
> View attachment 430450
> 
> 
> View attachment 430451
> 
> 
> View attachment 430452



How old are these pics?

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## khanasifm

Windjammer said:


> *PAF's K-8 Trainer armed with guns, bombs and missiles for combat and light strike roles. *
> 
> View attachment 430450
> 
> 
> View attachment 430451
> 
> 
> View attachment 430452



Looks like mk81 ?? 100kg, Paf never bought pl-7 but had older Marta 550s picture is not clear enough to confirm missile type


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## Raider 21

Khafee said:


> How old are these pics?


Looks more like screenshots.


----------



## khanasifm

Based on marking it is pl-7 but paf k8 at IDEAS carry aim-9s not pl-7 

This pic looks like pew delivery to paf

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## Khadim e Darul Ehsaan

khanasifm said:


> Based on marking it is pl-7 but paf k8 at IDEAS carry aim-9s not pl-7
> 
> This pic looks like pew delivery to paf
> 
> View attachment 430513


What is this another weapon alongwith wvr missile ???
Is its rocket pod ??? 
Secondly does hf17 carries rocket pods ???


----------



## khanasifm

khanasifm said:


> Based on marking it is pl-7 but paf k8 at IDEAS carry aim-9s not pl-7
> 
> This pic looks like pew delivery to paf
> 
> View attachment 430513



Pre delivery to paf sorry for typo


----------



## Windjammer



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## khanasifm

Weapon configuration for k-8

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## STRANGER BIRD




----------



## araz

Thorough Pro said:


> Wrong.
> 
> After soviet forces invaded Afghanistan on December 25, 1979, Afghan people picked up arms against the Soviets and their own government which had invited Soviets to help it stay in power.
> 
> US saw an opportunity and started helping Afghan people along with many other western and middle eastern countries including Pakistan (which was directly affected by influx of 3 million Afghan refugees and attacks by Afghan/Soviet jets, bomb blasts in all parts of Pakistan, etc.) by arming them to fight Soviets. The fighter became known as "Mujahideen".
> 
> After soviet withdrawal in 1987/89, Northern alliance war lords started looting, plundering and raping Pushtoons. In one particular instance they raped the daughter of a school teacher, and his students (Taliban in their language) picked up arms to take revenge for their teacher and then rapidly grew into a popular and massive force to counter NA warlords. Pakistan had ZERO role in their establishment.
> 
> Please get your facts right before blaming anyone


All I will say is it is correct that the Mujahideen were active before PA jumped into the fray. However you cannot absolve yourself of the responsibility when you have trained and armed them yourselves and formed them into effective units. However going by that logic a lot of "the chaste and pure" will have their dirty linen washed out in public and that is undesirable to those who tell us to "do more". 
Now back to the topic please.
A


----------



## MastanKhan

Thorough Pro said:


> Wrong.
> 
> After soviet forces invaded Afghanistan on December 25, 1979, Afghan people picked up arms against the Soviets and their own government which had invited Soviets to help it stay in power.
> 
> US saw an opportunity and started helping Afghan people along with many other western and middle eastern countries including Pakistan (which was directly affected by influx of 3 million Afghan refugees and attacks by Afghan/Soviet jets, bomb blasts in all parts of Pakistan, etc.) by arming them to fight Soviets. The fighter became known as "Mujahideen".
> 
> After soviet withdrawal in 1987/89, Northern alliance war lords started looting, plundering and raping Pushtoons. In one particular instance they raped the daughter of a school teacher, and his students (Taliban in their language) picked up arms to take revenge for their teacher and then rapidly grew into a popular and massive force to counter NA warlords. Pakistan had ZERO role in their establishment.
> 
> Please get your facts right before blaming anyone



Hi,

Indeed pakistan had zero role in establishing the Taliban---other than Benzair claiming to be the 'mother of Taliban'.


----------



## Thorough Pro

There is a difference in "Supporting" and "Establishing"
We might have supported them for our interest and there is nothing wrong with that and we don't need to be apologetic about that. US has been the mother of more than half of the worlds terrorist organizations of all times.




MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Indeed pakistan had zero role in establishing the Taliban---other than Benzair claiming to be the 'mother of Taliban'.

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## STRANGER BIRD

*Sherdil display team over the Arabian Sea.*
*



*

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## BATMAN

@MastanKhan 
I have not heard any news from long time. i don't think, nations of world has stopped buying trainers.
Are they (PAC) counting the lost opportunities or not?

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## STRANGER BIRD



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## Raider 21



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## Incog_nito

L-159 coming to PAF?

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## Windjammer



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## Incog_nito

I think a new version of K-8 can be the best choice.

*Composites*
*Improved engine*
*Improve Avionics*
*Radar & FLIR*
*IFR*
*Increased Hardpoints to 7*
*Landing Gear similar to JF-17s*
It can prove to be better than others.

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## araz

Oxair Online said:


> I think a new version of K-8 can be the best choice.
> 
> *Composites*
> *Improved engine*
> *Improve Avionics*
> *Radar & FLIR*
> *IFR*
> *Increased Hardpoints to 7*
> *Landing Gear similar to JF-17s*
> It can prove to be better than others.


So you want to develop a new plane? What is your demand and what are the costs of development? I suspect you will be wasting a lot of money to get substandard platform at a very high cost. But do your sums and come back and we can talk more.
A

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Oxair Online said:


> I think a new version of K-8 can be the best choice.
> 
> *Composites*
> *Improved engine*
> *Improve Avionics*
> *Radar & FLIR*
> *IFR*
> *Increased Hardpoints to 7*
> *Landing Gear similar to JF-17s*
> It can prove to be better than others.


The closest Pakistan/China might get to with the K-8 is the L-39NG.

Basically, the goal would be to extend the life of the K-8 via re-manufacturing, albeit through newer manufacturing processes and improved quality control. They can look at including some composites. The main goal would be to update the avionics such that the K-8 has an operating environment similar to the JF-17 (increase familiarity with the Thunder). Besides all that, there isn't much to do to improve the K-8, hardly any engines more efficient in this weight and power-class than the Honeywell. As for IFR, radar, increasing hardpoints, etc, all inconsequential.

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## BHarwana

K-8 performing in Srilanka

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## razgriz19

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The closest Pakistan/China might get to with the K-8 is the L-39NG.
> 
> Basically, the goal would be to extend the life of the K-8 via re-manufacturing, albeit through newer manufacturing processes and improved quality control. They can look at including some composites. The main goal would be to update the avionics such that the K-8 has an operating environment similar to the JF-17 (increase familiarity with the Thunder). Besides all that, there isn't much to do to improve the K-8, hardly any engines more efficient in this weight and power-class than the Honeywell. As for IFR, radar, increasing hardpoints, etc, all inconsequential.


K8 is already rated for 8000 flight hours, if i remember correctly they mentioned it during an air show. I think that's sufficient enough, PAF is still flying Tweets so that says something about how long they can squeeze the life out of them.

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## Cookie Monster

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The closest Pakistan/China might get to with the K-8 is the L-39NG.
> 
> Basically, the goal would be to extend the life of the K-8 via re-manufacturing, albeit through newer manufacturing processes and improved quality control. They can look at including some composites. The main goal would be to update the avionics such that the K-8 has an operating environment similar to the JF-17 (increase familiarity with the Thunder). Besides all that, there isn't much to do to improve the K-8, hardly any engines more efficient in this weight and power-class than the Honeywell. As for IFR, radar, increasing hardpoints, etc, all inconsequential.


Wouldn't the use of composites(and hence the change in manufacturing techniques/equipment) unnecessarily increase the cost?

It is after all a trainer and the goal here is to familiarize/train the pilot(coming from a turboprop) on a jet so that they can next move on to something like JF17. So as long as it's airframe can provide sufficient life(without modifications), there's no need to upgrade except for the avionics and possibly the engine as u mentioned.

With projects like Azm and JF17 Block III running side by side, PAF should spend every penny in a very shrewd manner.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

razgriz19 said:


> K8 is already rated for 8000 flight hours, if i remember correctly they mentioned it during an air show. I think that's sufficient enough, PAF is still flying Tweets so that says something about how long they can squeeze the life out of them.





Cookie Monster said:


> Wouldn't the use of composites(and hence the change in manufacturing techniques/equipment) unnecessarily increase the cost?
> 
> It is after all a trainer and the goal here is to familiarize/train the pilot(coming from a turboprop) on a jet so that they can next move on to something like JF17. So as long as it's airframe can provide sufficient life(without modifications), there's no need to upgrade except for the avionics and possibly the engine as u mentioned.
> 
> With projects like Azm and JF17 Block III running side by side, PAF should spend every penny in a very shrewd manner.


All that in mind, I guess the only thing needed is to change the K-8's cockpit so that it better prepares the pilot for what to expect on the next step (i.e. JF-17). Even the engine (Honeywell) doesn't have many options that are better in terms of efficiency and performance (at that class).

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## Incog_nito

What is the use of L-139?


----------



## STRANGER BIRD



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## STRANGER BIRD



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## ziaulislam

how many k8s are on order


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## GriffinsRule

ziaulislam said:


> how many k8s are on order



None that I am aware of. Should be around 39 in PAF, with the last batch entering service around 2012 when the FT-5 was finally retired.


----------



## ziaulislam

GriffinsRule said:


> None that I am aware of. Should be around 39 in PAF, with the last batch entering service around 2012 when the FT-5 was finally retired.


i thought we have around 80 k8s?


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## GriffinsRule

Maybe that is the eventual need but there is no room for 80 K-8s while we still have T-37s being operated. Perhaps once those are gone additional K-8s will join the rank? I could have outdated info as well but I have not read about additional K-8s anywhere that I can recall.


----------



## khanasifm

GriffinsRule said:


> Maybe that is the eventual need but there is no room for 80 K-8s while we still have T-37s being operated. Perhaps once those are gone additional K-8s will join the rank? I could have outdated info as well but I have not read about additional K-8s anywhere that I can recall.



Per paf history / Allen Warren new paf book 
19 k8 at 1 fcu
20 at ajt at academy

I [emoji848] another 30-40 k-8 would be needed at min to replace the wing at academy operating t-37s unless the ajt sqn is counted as well then another 20 -25 or so 

Paf total req initially was about 70-75 
1 fcu plus a wing of t-37s needing replacement 

Paf history did mention eventually k-8 to replace t-37 down the road question is when and ho many ??


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## fatman17

khanasifm said:


> Per paf history / Allen Warren new paf book
> 19 k8 at 1 fcu
> 20 at ajt at academy
> 
> I [emoji848] another 30-40 k-8 would be needed at min to replace the wing at academy operating t-37s unless the ajt sqn is counted as well then another 20 -25 or so
> 
> Paf total req initially was about 70-75
> 1 fcu plus a wing of t-37s needing replacement
> 
> Paf history did mention eventually k-8 to replace t-37 down the road question is when and ho many ??


No more K8s in the short and medium term.

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## STRANGER BIRD



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## denel

fatman17 said:


> No more K8s in the short and medium term.


why not? if i may ask. T-37s are completely obsolete in terms of age and hand me downs. Is there plan to induct Hurkus or similar?


----------



## fatman17

denel said:


> why not? if i may ask. T-37s are completely obsolete in terms of age and hand me downs. Is there plan to induct Hurkus or similar?



PAF academy yearly intake of cadets remain the same so there is no need to increase the inventory for trainer aircraft. PAF has a huge surplus of spares and engines for the T37 (S.Korea, US and Turkey) so these aircraft will serve the PAF for some time to come. Hurkus could be a possibility if the terms are right (potentially expensive)

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## denel

fatman17 said:


> PAF academy yearly intake of cadets remain the same so there is no need to increase the inventory for trainer aircraft. PAF has a huge surplus of spares and engines for the T37 (S.Korea, US and Turkey) so these aircraft will serve the PAF for some time to come. Hurkus could be a possibility if the terms are right (potentially expensive)


Yes true. but remember cost of operating a turboprop is far lower.

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## SQ8

denel said:


> Yes true. but remember cost of operating a turboprop is far lower.


But the cost of spare stock, training ease and existing logistics infrastructure outweigh the benefits for now.



denel said:


> why not? if i may ask. T-37s are completely obsolete in terms of age and hand me downs. Is there plan to induct Hurkus or similar?


T-37s and K-8s serve different speed brackets.

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## Imran Khan

*PAF Tender Notice for Procurement of Cockpit Modification of K-8 to K-8P*


 Post  by *Abbas Ali* » Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:47 am

Pakistan Air Force (PAF) tender notice in September 24 newspaper for procurement of cockpit modification of K-8 Karakorum jet trainer to K-8P.

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## Path-Finder

Imran Khan said:


> *PAF Tender Notice for Procurement of Cockpit Modification of K-8 to K-8P*
> Post  by *Abbas Ali* » Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:47 am
> 
> Pakistan Air Force (PAF) tender notice in September 24 newspaper for procurement of cockpit modification of K-8 Karakorum jet trainer to K-8P.


what will be the modification?


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## Dazzler

Path-Finder said:


> what will be the modification?



Older K-8s to newer K-8P, glass cockpit that is.


old






new






History

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Dazzler said:


> Older K-8s to newer K-8P, glass cockpit that is.
> 
> 
> old
> View attachment 500953
> 
> 
> 
> new
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> History













Dazzler said:


> Older K-8s to newer K-8P, glass cockpit that is.
> 
> 
> old
> View attachment 500953
> 
> 
> 
> new
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> History













Dazzler said:


> Older K-8s to newer K-8P, glass cockpit that is.
> 
> 
> old
> View attachment 500953
> 
> 
> 
> new
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> History

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## Dazzler

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> View attachment 500955
> View attachment 500956
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 500955
> View attachment 500956
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 500955
> View attachment 500956




Wow, thrice?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Dazzler said:


> Wow, thrice?


Ur lucky day.


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## Dazzler

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Ur lucky day.


Not for your net connection though.

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## khanasifm

All newer ordered in late 2000ish are already k-8p model only 1990s and early 2000ish totaling 12
Or so were k-8 older cockpit, 27 k-8p were already newer cockpit

View attachment 501046

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## Windjammer

*A rare aerial shot of the K-8 flying with sidewinder missiles albeit they look like training rounds. *





__ https://www.facebook.com/

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## Raider 21



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## Windjammer

*Sherdil member doing barrel rolls around the main formation.*






__ https://www.facebook.com/

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## Raider 21

Windjammer said:


> *Sherdil member doing barrel rolls around the main formation.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/


Was told by one of the team members that this video was to be kept off the internet. Kindly please take it down.

Cheers !!!


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## GriffinsRule

Seems like a standard airshow practice routine

PS its on facebook so removing its link here won't change much of anything


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## SQ8

Knuckles said:


> Was told by one of the team members that this video was to be kept off the internet. Kindly please take it down.
> 
> Cheers !!!


Looks to be on a page dedicated to them. They should message that page owner.


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## Dazzler

k8p simulator..

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## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/K-8P-Karakorum/1619

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## denel

Dazzler said:


> k8p simulator..
> View attachment 525510


is this a static simulator or with motion actuators?


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## Dazzler

denel said:


> is this a static simulator or with motion actuators?



It's static.


----------



## BERKEKHAN2

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2107472532876950





K8 can be upgrade to Next gen it has a huge market potential

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## Fieldmarshal

Windjammer said:


> *A rare aerial shot of the K-8 flying with sidewinder missiles albeit they look like training rounds. *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/


more like smoke winders


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## Arsalan

PAF K-8 armed version




Have seen the aircraft fitted for light ground attack role for foreign forces before but this is PAF K8 fitted with US sidewinder AIM-9 AAM. Picture taken during motorway landings operation/exercise.


@HRK @Dazzler @Bilal Khan 777 @Rashid Mahmood @araz

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## blinder

Arsalan said:


> PAF K-8 armed version
> View attachment 547684


First time I see K-8 with "rahbers" tail band, nice!
Any close up of the tail?


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## Windjammer

Arsalan said:


> PAF K-8 armed version
> View attachment 547684
> 
> Have seen the aircraft fitted for light ground attack role for foreign forces before but this is PAF K8 fitted with US sidewinder AIM-9 AAM. Picture taken during motorway landings operation/exercise.

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## Danish saleem

Arsalan said:


> PAF K-8 armed version
> View attachment 547684
> 
> Have seen the aircraft fitted for light ground attack role for foreign forces before but this is PAF K8 fitted with US sidewinder AIM-9 AAM. Picture taken during motorway landings operation/exercise.
> 
> 
> @HRK @Dazzler @Bilal Khan 777 @Rashid Mahmood @araz



so radar also fitted what about gun?
and i hope this is for force Multiplier role?


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## Bilal Khan 777

Arsalan said:


> PAF K-8 armed version
> View attachment 547684
> 
> Have seen the aircraft fitted for light ground attack role for foreign forces before but this is PAF K8 fitted with US sidewinder AIM-9 AAM. Picture taken during motorway landings operation/exercise.
> 
> 
> @HRK @Dazzler @Bilal Khan 777 @Rashid Mahmood @araz



K8 is used for ADA and VP air defence during tension periods. It is fully integrated and qualified with AIM9 and other AAMs and AGBs such as the Mk80 series for air support to ground troops.

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## khanasifm

Mk-82 500 lbs


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## fatman17

Arsalan said:


> PAF K-8 armed version
> View attachment 547684
> 
> Have seen the aircraft fitted for light ground attack role for foreign forces before but this is PAF K8 fitted with US sidewinder AIM-9 AAM. Picture taken during motorway landings operation/exercise.
> 
> 
> @HRK @Dazzler @Bilal Khan 777 @Rashid Mahmood @araz


Point defence

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## MIRauf

Don't think that there is a Radar o K-8, you don't need a Radar for heat Seeking missile.

I have always wondered why hasn't PAC / AVIC gone for a Single Seat K-8 like that of Hawk 100 series. Provisioned with couple of Triple ejector racks, armed with 6 odd KD-10/KD-10A type missile could be very decent Anti-Armor force working as Second Tier behind / under cover of the JF-17 / F-16 etc.

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## Arsalan

fatman17 said:


> Point defence


Yes sir!



Windjammer said:


> PIC


Bro at least edit out the face of the person.


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## Windjammer

Arsalan said:


> Bro at least edit out the face of the person.


The image is over a year old and went viral.


----------



## Arsalan

Windjammer said:


> The image is over a year old and went viral.


It should not have man! People are way too careless with these things


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## denel

MIRauf said:


> Don't think that there is a Radar o K-8, you don't need a Radar for heat Seeking missile.
> 
> I have always wondered why hasn't PAC / AVIC gone for a Single Seat K-8 like that of Hawk 100 series. Provisioned with couple of Triple ejector racks, armed with 6 odd KD-10/KD-10A type missile could be very decent Anti-Armor force working as Second Tier behind / under cover of the JF-17 / F-16 etc.


It is called lack of foresight and my complaint on the complacency as this remained an orphaned project which could have been taken a long way still.


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## aziqbal

there was a COIN version of the K8 what happened to it?

Super Mushshak also not armed 

overall good moves


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## denel

aziqbal said:


> there was a COIN version of the K8 what happened to it?
> 
> Super Mushshak also not armed
> 
> overall good moves


For the later, there is a thread; it was always possible and i think they did demo it.


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## ghazi52

A nice shot over Tarbela, KP

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## Hu Yao

Everything is possible. With new Al-222-28 engine, K-8 can be very dangerous too.

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## Deino

Hu Yao said:


> View attachment 555460
> 
> 
> Everything is possible. With new Al-222-28 engine, K-8 can be very dangerous too.



just a fan made what if ! Nothing serious.


----------



## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/K-8P-Karakorum/1853

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## air marshal

http://falcons.pk/photo/K-8P-Karakorum/1867

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## TOPGUN

Guys just a thought I would like to see our K-8's in grey color schme like our thunders and vipers what do you guys think ?

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## vi-va

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I do not know what to tell you my man---but if you see the serial ERTUGRUL---it will explain you a lot.
> 
> When a pakistani general says " we will make a vietnam of the U S in afg " at the onset and before the onset of afg invasion---what can you tell that fool---.
> 
> What do you tell a pakistani that there were 4.5 million dead vietnamese---and land destroyed for years to cultivate---even though there were close to 50 thousand american dead---.
> 
> Now there are a million and a half dead afg's and only 2800 dead americans ---see the difference in the american efficiency.
> 
> To change---I think that you need to start at the academy level---the education and mindset of the military recruits needs to change---take the hatred / anger out.
> 
> The american soldier / general never brags about dying for the country---it is already understood that he will die for the country---but he is trained to kill the enemy rather than be killed---. That is a fundamental difference in training and belief---and no---the american soldier is not afraid to die for his country---.
> 
> I have sold cars to thoiusands of them over the years---many a soldiers---many a families with their sons in the military---no one ever bragged about their son being a martyr for the country---or no soldier told me he is ready to die---it was understood that he would do his DUTY when the time comes---.
> 
> The fish rots from the head---the rot starts from the top---. The top generals are corrupt---Gen Raheel's friend---that general even recruited other officers to be corrupt---.
> 
> Stop the national anthem in schools---and start with a pledge of allegiance at the begining of the class----
> 
> " I pledge allegiance to the flag of the Islamic republic of Pakistan---one nation under God---prosperity and happiness for all ".
> 
> The solution is a chinese style revolution---.



I came across your comments, found pearl in the sand. Wise comments.

Majority countries in the world actually have no hope to be developed countries at all, not in near future, not in foreseeable future. 

Not many realized what's going on in the world, the powerful ones become more powerful, the loser will continue to lose more. It's not just about money, it's about a country's fate, and people's fate.

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## Incog_nito

Is PAF looking to acquire Leonardo design 2 types of trainers? Like 50 - 50 of each designs.


----------



## syed_yusuf

TOPGUN said:


> Guys just a thought I would like to see our K-8's in grey color schme like our thunders and vipers what do you guys think ?


Not all of them, the one we used for ajt should be grey , rest in academy should retain what they have

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## denel

IM Ozair said:


> Is PAF looking to acquire Leonardo design 2 types of trainers? Like 50 - 50 of each designs.


I dont think so, given there is already K-8; with fc-1b already being made available; plus ft-7b already exist.


----------



## Keysersoze

denel said:


> I dont think so, given there is already K-8; with fc-1b already being made available; plus ft-7b already exist.


That depends on who the JF17B is primarily for. If the PAF wants an alternate AJT then they might go for a different platform. They also might not want to have exclusively Eastern equipment.

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## denel

Keysersoze said:


> That depends on who the JF17B is primarily for. If the PAF wants an alternate AJT then they might go for a different platform. They also might not want to have exclusively Eastern equipment.


True funds are key.

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## Trailer23

*Kids... They just wanna have (some) fun  .*

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## Philip the Arab

Can someone find detailed cockpit pictures of K-8 and K-8P? Trying to see what weapon functions it has in terms of avionics and its hard for me to access Urdu sites because of language barrier.


----------



## Danishwer

Stop the national anthem in schools---and start with a pledge of allegiance at the begining of the class----

" I pledge allegiance to the flag of the Islamic republic of Pakistan---one nation under God---prosperity and happiness for all ".

The solution is a chinese style revolution---.

Mastan sab you knew the pulse and know what must do.
God Bless you sir.

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## MastanKhan

Danishwer said:


> Stop the national anthem in schools---and start with a pledge of allegiance at the begining of the class----
> 
> " I pledge allegiance to the flag of the Islamic republic of Pakistan---one nation under God---prosperity and happiness for all ".
> 
> The solution is a chinese style revolution---.
> 
> Mastan sab you knew the pulse and know what must do.
> God Bless you sir.



Hi,

The americans knew it that it is not the national anthem that works---but it is the pledge of allegiance---. Because pledge of allegiance is your word of honor---your proclamation to stand tall in the hour of need---.

For that reason---every morning in their classes---students take the pledge of allegiance---.


----------



## GriffinsRule

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The americans knew it that it is not the national anthem that works---but it is the pledge of allegiance---. Because pledge of allegiance is your word of honor---your proclamation to stand tall in the hour of need---.
> 
> For that reason---every morning in their classes---students take the pledge of allegiance---.


Do they? I don't remember that.


----------



## Syed1.

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The americans knew it that it is not the national anthem that works---but it is the pledge of allegiance---. Because pledge of allegiance is your word of honor---your proclamation to stand tall in the hour of need---.
> 
> For that reason---every morning in their classes---students take the pledge of allegiance---.


Bhai pledging weldging doesn't work.... politicians take oath to safeguard all interests of Pakistan when they are elected, the next day they turn around and build properties in London. Doctors take oath to perform their duties to the best of their abilities, in Pakistan doctors chill on the job or do not even show up. I can give a million examples like this.

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## MastanKhan

Syed1. said:


> Bhai pledging weldging doesn't work.... politicians take oath to safeguard all interests of Pakistan when they are elected, the next day they turn around and build properties in London. Doctors take oath to perform their duties to the best of their abilities, in Pakistan doctors chill on the job or do not even show up. I can give a million examples like this.



Hi,

Don't blame it on the pledge---blame it on the character---.

And even before you do that---blame it on your law & order---.

That is why you have to have order in the society and enforcement of the law to have the pledge work.

You break the pledge---you face the consequences---.

It is all a package deal---.

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## GriffinsRule

Syed1. said:


> Bhai pledging weldging doesn't work.... politicians take oath to safeguard all interests of Pakistan when they are elected, the next day they turn around and build properties in London. Doctors take oath to perform their duties to the best of their abilities, in Pakistan doctors chill on the job or do not even show up. I can give a million examples like this.


There are no pledges of allegiances in American schools and its a bad example anyways and totally ineffective, like you point out


----------



## MastanKhan

GriffinsRule said:


> There are no pledges of allegiances in American schools and its a bad example anyways and totally ineffective, like you point out



My son takes a pledge of allegiance every morning in his school.

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## UmairNawaz

*K-8 Karakorum CAS and strike variant concept.*






This Egyptian variant of the K-8 armed with a variety of weapons from 250 kg to A2A missiles and fuel tanks is a great light attack aircraft.

If 125kg Denel Al-Tariq PGMs or Chinese PGM could be integrated the CAD ability of this platform would be enhanced greatly because of the ability to hit targets very accurately compared to dumb bombs.

GIDS offers sighting system but it doesn't include laser designator which is needed on a CAS platforms.

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## Path-Finder

the engines for these, are they made in China?


----------



## denel

Path-Finder said:


> the engines for these, are they made in China?


No. honeywell.

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## khanasifm

UmairNawaz said:


> *K-8 Karakorum CAS and strike variant concept.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This Egyptian variant of the K-8 armed with a variety of weapons from 250 kg to A2A missiles and fuel tanks is a great light attack aircraft.
> 
> If 125kg Denel Al-Tariq PGMs or Chinese PGM could be integrated the CAD ability of this platform would be enhanced greatly because of the ability to hit targets very accurately compared to dumb bombs.
> 
> GIDS offers sighting system but it doesn't include laser designator which is needed on a CAS platforms.



Nothing new paf in no 1 sqn uses it for ground attack training for exposure of new pilots out of academy, gunnery, practice bombing and air to air missile employment of aim-9

Guided weapons are only Past k-8 in operational sqn f-16 jf and mirages with ldp and /or Ground based lasing

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## denel

khanasifm said:


> Nothing new paf in no 1 sqn uses it for ground attack training for exposure of new pilots out of academy, gunnery, practice bombing and air to air missile employment of aim-9
> 
> Guided weapons are only Past k-8 in operational sqn f-16 jf and mirages with ldp and /or Ground based lasing


what is interesting is why there have been no newer sales of K8; Nigeria would have been a good target given MFI + JF-17

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## Readerdefence

denel said:


> what is interesting is why there have been no newer sales of K8; Nigeria would have been a good target given MFI + JF-17


Hi can be coz of China is offering them JL10 & with more diversification of latest technology with 
Chinese AAM and bombs this offer is more lucrative then the K-8 just a thought 
Thank you


----------



## GriffinsRule

K-8 and JL-10 are different categories of trainers. One is a basic jet trainer while the other is advanced trainer/LIFT aircraft. Also its a highly contested space given how many trainers are out there competing already so its not surprising.

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## khanasifm

Per pac what’s k-8

https://www.pac.org.pk/k-8


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## air marshal

94-01-804

http://falcons.pk/photo/K-8P-Karakorum/2366


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## air marshal

http://falcons.pk/photo/K-8P-Karakorum/2410

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## air marshal

http://falcons.pk/photo/K-8P-Karakorum/2429

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## khanasifm

Useful load 943kg is almost 2100 lbs each mk-82 is 500 lbs so k-8 can carry 4 mk82 if needed ? 

Not sure what is the max load per hardpoint if each can carry 500 lbs than sure ? But usually internal Hp are shown with pylons which carry 2 x 6kg or 2x 50 kg and 4x ?kg practice bombs


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## denel

khanasifm said:


> Useful load 943kg is almost 2100 lbs each mk-82 is 500 lbs so k-8 can carry 4 mk82 if needed ?
> 
> Not sure what is the max load per hardpoint if each can carry 500 lbs than sure ? But usually internal Hp are shown with pylons which carry 2 x 6kg or 2x 50 kg and 4x ?kg practice bombs
> 
> View attachment 594643


range would be severely impacted.

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## Incog_nito

Is PAF looking to acquire an Italian trainer to take future K-8 roles?


----------



## fatman17

Strong possibility. What the PAF wants is the armed version, the only roadblocks being cost per aircraft and possibly sanctions if any equipment is of US origin.


IM Ozair said:


> Is PAF looking to acquire an Italian trainer to take future K-8 roles?

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## Ali_Baba

If PAF is serious about designing its own planes, then why not have a project to design and develop a replacement for the K8 in Pakistan? Turnkey, greenfield development? If would be the right step to take its industry to the next level. A trainer is not as demanding as fighter jet and would provide the skill growth it should have at this stage. Far more sensible then pretending you can build a 5th gen as your first design project?

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## Yasser76

Ali_Baba said:


> If PAF is serious about designing its own planes, then why not have a project to design and develop a replacement for the K8 in Pakistan? Turnkey, greenfield development? If would be the right step to take its industry to the next level. A trainer is not as demanding as fighter jet and would provide the skill growth it should have at this stage. Far more sensible then pretending you can build a 5th gen as your first design project?



Numbers game. K-8 was feasable as Chinese adopted it too. Max number of trainers PAF would need is 50. Unsure if if it is worth developing a plane unless we know it will be exported widely.


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## khanasifm

If m346 with a top speed of less than k-8 can cover basic to all the way advance training the why not k-8 ?

Depending on chief this topic comes and goes any way for now k-8 is the answer , they need to order ~20-25 more to replace all t-37s 

K-8 to f-7 for next 3-5 years and then mirages /jf/f-16 is the route 

Afterwards k-8 straight to mirages/jf/f-16 staring with simulators 

No need to spend another .5B on a new system setup


----------



## denel

khanasifm said:


> If m346 with a top speed of less than k-8 can cover basic to all the way advance training the why not k-8 ?
> 
> Depending on chief this topic comes and goes any way for now k-8 is the answer , they need to order ~20-25 more to replace all t-37s
> 
> K-8 to f-7 for next 3-5 years and then mirages /jf/f-16 is the route
> 
> Afterwards k-8 straight to mirages/jf/f-16 staring with simulators
> 
> No need to spend another .5B on a new system setup


There was no reason why K8 could not have been improved upon. Instead PAC has let this simplistic aircraft with a lot of potential rot with no R&D.

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## gangsta_rap

denel said:


> There was no reason why K8 could not have been improved upon. Instead PAC has let this simplistic aircraft with a lot of potential rot with no R&D.


you don't know that


----------



## Tank131

So I think we need to revisit how the training process works because i think many of us, including myself may have some misconceptions.

First cadets are put through basic flight trainers such as Super Mushak. These train would be pilots on the basics of flight and how to control a piston engine. Now from here you move them to basic jet or in the case of some forces advaned turboprop trainers (T-37/BAC Provost/Saab 105 for basic jet or turboprops like Embraer Super Tucano/Beechcraft T-6 Texan II/ TAI Hurkus/Pilatus PC-21 which have started to replacebasic jet trainers in many nations d/t similar performance and cheaper costs). From basic trainers you would move the cadet to intermediate or advanced trainers like K-8, L-15, JL-9/FTC-2000, T-38 talon, Alpha Jet, BAE Hawk, L-159,and M346. Then they move to OCU where they operate two seater variants of their fighter jets (F-16B/D, JJ-7, JF-17B, ect). With that said how does K-8 fit this role.

The K-8 program worked for Pakistan because nearly 530 were built and sold. It was actually a farely successful product, so PAC gsined a littke experience learning from the chinese, amd generated some revenue as a 25% shareholder. But the aircraft has a slight identity problem. It is marketed as an intermediate jet trainer and an advanced jet trainer. In the modern PAF, it is likely more of an intermediate trainer. With that said i think what role it fills has more to do with the makeup of the airforce that is using it rather than its own capabilities. While PAF was mostly using F-7 and MIRAGE III/V, it could function as an advanced trainer prior to pilots being deployed to their OCU. While ut can mimic flight characteristics of more modern jets, it does have the advanced systems and avionics necessary to train pilots for a more advanced fighter like F-16, JF-17, J-10, ect. That's why the chinese developed FTC-2000 and L-15. For PAF much of their advanced training was done in the Mirage and F-7 OCUs and their superior pilots eventually made their way to F-16 OCUs or the JF-17 via flight simulator training. But as PAF gradually weans itself from Mirage and F-7, the gap from K-8 to F-16/JF-17 will simply be too great to cover in the OCUs,hence the need for an advanced trainer. My suspicion is the PAF will likely start phasing out its T-37s and that void will be filled either by a turboprop like Hurkus or more likely by K-8 (there a are 60 T-37 a d 60 K-8 in service). The main question is why PAF hasnt updated the avionics suite of K-8 to demand more of an advanced trainer quality, but that is a question that more senior members may be able to answer.

As far as the options for advanced trainer, the choicer are BAE hawk, L-159, and M346. While the L-159 makes the most sense as an isolated purchase i. That it is the least expensive, the M346 has some of the best flight characteristics (given that it is basically the same aircraft as the Yak-130 which is one of the premier advanced trainers) and it is ITAR free. Additionally, it has the added benefits of being a leonardo product, a company and country (Italy) that Pakistan has good defense relations with and it is the largest operator or leonardo radars outside Italy and Britain (typhoon) in the world and operates the AW139 helicopters (AW is part of leonardo). The M346 could be leveraged into a larger defense deal with the addition of more AW-139 Maybe even with ToT, CAMM-ER for the PN MILGEM/Jinnah program and possibly even Grifo-E for the JF-17 Block3 IF EUROPEAN WEAPONS and sensors can also be procured (mainly METEOR, Iris-T and A2G munitions as well as Skyward-g IRST and BriteCloud DRFM, SEER RWR, and BriteEye Integrated Defensive Aids Suit which marries SEER amd Britecloud and gives enhanced RF awareness to the pilot). This could form the basis of a highly capable European sourced variant of block 3 for export and high end ew mission capable JF-17 for PAF. Of course even without the Grifo im sure many of the other systems could be integrated into JF-17 as well as part of a package for M346 and CAMM-ER.

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## MastanKhan

Angry Easterling said:


> you don't know that



Hi,

Yes he does---.

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## m52k85

denel said:


> There was no reason why K8 could not have been improved upon. Instead PAC has let this simplistic aircraft with a lot of potential rot with no R&D.




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1217120776190615552
@denel Is this the type of improvement you are talking about?

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## GriffinsRule

m52k85 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1217120776190615552
> @denel Is this the type of improvement you are talking about?


Pakistan is probably providing custom solutions to avionic suites as per its customer needs. It also mentions "a" Super Mushshak. Might be getting ready to market this to potential clients at 2020 airshows.

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## khanasifm

https://web.archive.org/web/2008010...kheedmartin.com/products/AT63Pampa/index.html

If LM AT-63 can cover basic to advance so can k-8 just add modern avionics, scaled down version of jf radar or Grifo 7 from f-7 onto it for 100 hours LiFt training before moving to jf and f-16 Etc.

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## denel

m52k85 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1217120776190615552
> @denel Is this the type of improvement you are talking about?


absolutely. if you look there, they had the insight to improve engine and other core mods on the airframe; then upgrade to the cockpit/avonics. That is why the program is successful. As a prior contributor notes, K8 has been left to stagnate.


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## Haris Ali2140

denel said:


> absolutely. if you look there, they had the insight to improve engine and other core mods on the airframe; then upgrade to the cockpit/avonics. That is why the program is successful. As a prior contributor notes, K8 has been left to stagnate.


Do you think K-8 can be transformed into advanced trainer??? And will it be more profitable to invest into it rather then buying a new platform???

@Quwa @Tank131 @Dazzler


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## Tank131

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Do you think K-8 can be transformed into advanced trainer??? And will it be more profitable to invest into it rather then buying a new platform???
> 
> @Quwa @Tank131 @Dazzler


I think it could with the correct engine, avionics, and a fully digital fbw system amongst other minor modifications. But the question is how much all that would cost to the project, what does that do to the unit costs and would it be worth it when there are numerous off the shelf solutions from friendly countries? I think the time of K-8s exports is likely at an end when you have so many newer and established trainers out there. At the time of its develolment you only had a handful of advanced trainers and they were either politically difficult to deal with countries (US, Russia, UK, France) and were too expensive and advanced fornwhat many nations operated. The most advances airforces to use K-8 were PAF, PLAAF, EAF (egypt). But the current K-8s no longer fit the bill and an upgraded one may be expensive enough to put itnin in the simialr range as Yak-130/M346, Alphajet, Hawk. L-159 and frankly the chinese may not ve interested with them already producing JL-9 and L-15.

For Pakistan it may be worth developing an upgraded version and marketing it independently. It would make for a good challenge for PAC along with Azm which is under development (it is a good R&D project which would help to build capacity of the organization), but may not be worth the cost. Beyond that, i see Pakistan being able to use its need for a more advanced trainer as leverage for other weapons systems it may also desire (like getting M346 as part of a package which includes CAMM-ER and possibly an avionics and weapons package for JF-17 Blk 3 so they may want tonmove on as well). Besides i forsee them using it as a basic jet trainer in place of tweets. All of this is to me a bit disappointing as i really love this aircraft. It just seems like the littke jet that could.

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## denel

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Do you think K-8 can be transformed into advanced trainer??? And will it be more profitable to invest into it rather then buying a new platform???
> 
> @Quwa @Tank131 @Dazzler


Most likely yes. M series has been successfully because someone had the insight to move it forward and own it.


Tank131 said:


> I think it could with the correct engine, avionics, and a fully digital fbw system amongst other minor modifications. But the question is how much all that would cost to the project, what does that do to the unit costs and would it be worth it when there are numerous off the shelf solutions from friendly countries? I think the time of K-8s exports is likely at an end when you have so many newer and established trainers out there. At the time of its develolment you only had a handful of advanced trainers and they were either politically difficult to deal with countries (US, Russia, UK, France) and were too expensive and advanced fornwhat many nations operated. The most advances airforces to use K-8 were PAF, PLAAF, EAF (egypt). But the current K-8s no longer fit the bill and an upgraded one may be expensive enough to put itnin in the simialr range as Yak-130/M346, Alphajet, Hawk. L-159 and frankly the chinese may not ve interested with them already producing JL-9 and L-15.
> 
> For Pakistan it may be worth developing an upgraded version and marketing it independently. It would make for a good challenge for PAC along with Azm which is under development (it is a good R&D project which would help to build capacity of the organization), but may not be worth the cost. Beyond that, i see Pakistan being able to use its need for a more advanced trainer as leverage for other weapons systems it may also desire (like getting M346 as part of a package which includes CAMM-ER and possibly an avionics and weapons package for JF-17 Blk 3 so they may want tonmove on as well). Besides i forsee them using it as a basic jet trainer in place of tweets. All of this is to me a bit disappointing as i really love this aircraft. It just seems like the littke jet that could.



Correct. Here the counterpart of the Impala mk2 which was a local built variant with several upgrades of Mb-326- we were flying at peak over 200 of the beauties; very simple yet did bulk of the grunt work at low level; primarily it took out many helos. I have seen K8 in Namibia and remind me a lot of Impalas.

https://thereaderwiki.com/en/Aermacchi_MB-326

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## denel

denel said:


> Most likely yes. M series has been successfully because someone had the insight to move it forward and own it.
> 
> 
> Correct. Here the counterpart of the Impala mk2 which was a local built variant with several upgrades of Mb-326- we were flying at peak over 200 of the beauties; very simple yet did bulk of the grunt work at low level; primarily it took out many helos. I have seen K8 in Namibia and remind me a lot of Impalas.
> 
> https://thereaderwiki.com/en/Aermacchi_MB-326



Namibian K-8 and F-7G
https://www.behance.net/gallery/28476339/Trustco-Namibian-International-Airshow-1-Aug-2015


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## Incog_nito

About 50 M345 can easily complement the current fleet of K-8s.


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## khanasifm



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## Raider 21

khanasifm said:


> View attachment 605006
> 
> 
> View attachment 605007
> 
> 
> View attachment 605008


The last picture with the statement regarding heights is just nonsense. Seen plenty of taller guys in Chinese platforms and shorter guys on Mirages.

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## khail007

Knuckles said:


> The last picture with the statement regarding heights is just nonsense. Seen plenty of taller guys in Chinese platforms and shorter guys on Mirages.


Sir G, it is not nonsense it was a very serious issue on F-6. I personally know some pilots who transferred to other squadrons (non F-6) for same reason.

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## denel

khail007 said:


> Sir G, it is not nonsense it was a very serious issue on F-6. I personally know some pilots who transferred to other squadrons (non F-6) for same reason.


This is a correct statement; when a Moz Mig19 defected; we had to examine the aircraft for its electronics as well - i was the only person who fitted the seats; all my other colleagues were taller and said who in their right minds will sit in it comfortably; from electronics side, it was pure garbage. not even a gunsight computer; i cannot speak about PAF's F-6s from electronics side.

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## Raider 21

khail007 said:


> Sir G, it is not nonsense it was a very serious issue on F-6. I personally know some pilots who transferred to other squadrons (non F-6) for same reason.


Ustadjee. My dad is taller than my cousin. He flew F-6s whereas the latter flew Mirages. I do have an idea of what you mean but since MB seats came in heights were less of an issue.

Plus the article I believe is more in reference towards F-7s, not F-6s...

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## Adam_Khan

Knuckles said:


> Ustadjee. My dad is taller than my cousin. He flew F-6s whereas the latter flew Mirages. I do have an idea of what you mean but since MB seats came in heights were less of an issue.
> 
> Plus the article I believe is more in reference towards F-7s, not F-6s...



It's true,I've someone in my own home who was posted on the F.7's simply because of the torso issue.


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## khanasifm

Issue addressed in jf specifically

Even ejection seats is more positioned like f-16 close to to around 30 degree may be 27 degree I think based on visuals 

View attachment 605037


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## khanasifm




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## Jammer

Knuckles said:


> Ustadjee. My dad is taller than my cousin. He flew F-6s whereas the latter flew Mirages. I do have an idea of what you mean but since MB seats came in heights were less of an issue.
> 
> Plus the article I believe is more in reference towards F-7s, not F-6s...


I would agree with Mr. Knuckles, the height thing and related transfer to particular fighters is a myth, the selection criteria keeps height and weight into consideration (considering the fighters we operate). What fighter you transfer to is a more complicated process and might not be set in stone.


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## Raider 21

Jammer said:


> I would agree with Mr. Knuckles, the height thing and related transfer to particular fighters is a myth, the selection criteria keeps height and weight into consideration (considering the fighters we operate). What fighter you transfer to is a more complicated process and might not be set in stone.


I like your profile name. It is just Knuckles. 

Cheers!!

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## MastanKhan

denel said:


> This is a correct statement; when a Moz Mig19 defected; we had to examine the aircraft for its electronics as well - i was the only person who fitted the seats; all my other colleagues were taller and said who in their right minds will sit in it comfortably; from electronics side, it was pure garbage. not even a gunsight computer; i cannot speak about PAF's F-6s from electronics side.



Hi,

I believe Mozanbique Mig19 was manufactured without gunsight computer---because the russians did not want them to have it---otherwise the russian had the gunsight computer they ogt from the downed F86 sabre during the Korean war---.


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## denel

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I believe Mozanbique Mig19 was manufactured without gunsight computer---because the russians did not want them to have it---otherwise the russian had the gunsight computer they ogt from the downed F86 sabre during the Korean war---.


Did the Paf f6 have a gunsight computer?


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## MastanKhan

denel said:


> Did the Paf f6 have a gunsight computer?



Hi,

I am pretty sure that it did.

Here is a find from somewhere.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3090021&postcount=123







"When the target enters the radar locking range, the sight will show the target mark and the "lock" (3AXBAT) lamp will turn on. A small instrument left of the sight will indicate target range. The target mark needs to be in the center of the rings for correct aiming. When the distance to target is within fire parameters, the "fire" lamp will turn on. The system is designed to engage aircraft in clouds and at night, so no need to visually adquire the target. The sight can range by radar or by optics"


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## FuturePAF

If Pakistan switches to the Z-10, it should also try to procure the Turkish Hurkus-C to be able to field its CAS weapons on a similarly decent platform.

In the Gilgit-Baltistan area, the high mountain valleys create an ideal place for a platform like the Hurkus to show off its +7/-3G agility when trying to *hunt down enemy Apaches and Transport helicopters, and still operate from mountain roads, hiding in small hidden bunkers, similar to the Swiss Air Force. Even a small fleet of 30 Hurkus could disrupt any Indian plans to move troops and helicopters to try to take Azad Kashmir and Gilgit-Baltistan. The Hurkus could also shot down any Indian paratrooper planes, in the even of an Airborne Invasion. *

The Hurkus can carry up to 1500 kg of stores, so it could conceivably carry the new 25 km ranged highly agile Turkish WVR missile. If this missile is developed into two variants like the MICA missile, IR and RF, it could be very potent against the Helicopter threat. (Pakistan and Turkey could test this out in exercises with Qatar against their Apache Ah-64E Helicopters, similar to the ones India is procuring). The Hurkus could operate like mini-SAM sites that literally Pop-up to deal with Enemy threats, and dive for valleys with roads to hide in prepared bunkers, similar to the way the Swiss Air Force Operated in the Cold war. The Hurkus have a more than 100 mph speed advantage over the Apaches. If down the line a AESA pod were attached, the full 65 km Turkish BVR missile could be added to really make the Hurkus like a pop-up SAM Site. It wouldn't be used as a true fighter, but like a special forces sniper, hiding away to take the right shots at the right time.

The Hurkus would be a way to give Turkey a different contract while we switch to the Z-10. With the threat of the Hurkus, K-8 in the CAS role armed similarly in the plains, and the Attack Helicopters, it would be a very formidable defense for any Indian Cold Start / Integrated Battle Group to have to deal with.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TAI_Hürkuş#Variants

Pakistan should not limit itself to just attack helicopters. UCAV would also be good but they are nearly equally priced as the Hurkus, and with manned platforms you can more easily deal with heavy enemy jamming your data-links. Also, you can probably land more reliably in the mountains with the wind shears, and don't have to worry about losing satellite connection with The Aircraft in the mountain valleys.

On a side note, a platform like the Hurkus could also be used, if stationed in the north to deal with any miscreants on our Western border if Afghanistan starts to become unstable, and a threat emerges out of there.

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## Kabotar

FuturePAF said:


> If Pakistan switches to the Z-10, it should also try to procure the Turkish Hurkus-C to be able to field its CAS weapons on a similarly decent platform.
> 
> In the Gilgit-Baltistan area, the high mountain valleys create an ideal place for a platform like the Hurkus to show off its +7/-3G agility when trying to *hunt down enemy Apaches and Transport helicopters, and still operate from mountain roads, hiding in small hidden bunkers, similar to the Swiss Air Force. Even a small fleet of 30 Hurkus could disrupt any Indian plans to move troops and helicopters to try to take Azad Kashmir and Gilgit-Baltistan. The Hurkus could also shot down any Indian paratrooper planes, in the even of an Airborne Invasion. *
> 
> The Hurkus can carry up to 1500 kg of stores, so it could conceivably carry the new 25 km ranged highly agile Turkish WVR missile. If this missile is developed into two variants like the MICA missile, IR and RF, it could be very potent against the Helicopter threat. (Pakistan and Turkey could test this out in exercises with Qatar against their Apache Ah-64E Helicopters, similar to the ones India is procuring). The Hurkus could operate like mini-SAM sites that literally Pop-up to deal with Enemy threats, and dive for valleys with roads to hide in prepared bunkers, similar to the way the Swiss Air Force Operated in the Cold war. The Hurkus have a more than 100 mph speed advantage over the Apaches. If down the line a AESA pod were attached, the full 65 km Turkish BVR missile could be added to really make the Hurkus like a pop-up SAM Site. It wouldn't be used as a true fighter, but like a special forces sniper, hiding away to take the right shots at the right time.
> 
> The Hurkus would be a way to give Turkey a different contract while we switch to the Z-10. With the threat of the Hurkus, K-8 in the CAS role armed similarly in the plains, and the Attack Helicopters, it would be a very formidable defense for any Indian Cold Start / Integrated Battle Group to have to deal with.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TAI_Hürkuş#Variants
> 
> Pakistan should not limit itself to just attack helicopters. UCAV would also be good but they are nearly equally priced as the Hurkus, and with manned platforms you can more easily deal with heavy enemy jamming your data-links. Also, you can probably land more reliably in the mountains with the wind shears, and don't have to worry about losing satellite connection with The Aircraft in the mountain valleys.
> 
> On a side note, a platform like the Hurkus could also be used, if stationed in the north to deal with any miscreants on our Western border if Afghanistan starts to become unstable, and a threat emerges out of there.



That work can be done by K8.

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## FuturePAF

Kabotar said:


> That work can be done by K8.



The K-8 can do it well in the plains, but in the mountains, the Hurkus is more agile, has longer endurance, and can carry a heavier load. consider landing capable roads maybe limited for the K-8 in the mountains, the Hurkus maybe a better option for just that particular region.

For the rest of the country, the K-8 is just fine, but we need a very capable platform to blunt enemy options in an area they have expressed an intention to invade.

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## FuturePAF

The Hurkus/k-8 would also need smart (AI enabled) loitering munitions to help take out enemy forces, why the manned platform maneuvers to launch more munitions or escape the threat environment. These munitions can be fitted with different sensors and extend the eyes and touch of the CAS platform. They would be a force multiplier when we need to maximize our capabilities with the limited resources we have.

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## Readerdefence

FuturePAF said:


> The K-8 can do it well in the plains, but in the mountains, the Hurkus is more agile, has longer endurance, and can carry a heavier load. consider landing capable roads maybe limited for the K-8 in the mountains, the Hurkus maybe a better option for just that particular region.
> 
> For the rest of the country, the K-8 is just fine, but we need a very capable platform to blunt enemy options in an area they have expressed an intention to invade.


Hi is it not possible for AAD to use their shoulder fired sam to cover the Apache scenario if the Houthis can deal with KSA Apache surely Pakistan can do the same what kind of system they can use 
Your input will be appreciated 
Thank you

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## FuturePAF

Readerdefence said:


> Hi is it not possible for AAD to use their shoulder fired sam to cover the Apache scenario if the Houthis can deal with KSA Apache surely Pakistan can do the same what kind of system they can use
> Your input will be appreciated
> Thank you



The houthis probably used a more advanced missile, not a man pad. The Apache is very good at defeating manpads, usually. Also the way Saudi was using the Apache doesn’t seem well planned out. The saudis are also attacking guerrilla forces. With a uniformed army, the Pakistani army will need a system like the Chinese version of Tor to adequately deal with Apaches; the FM-2000 recently displayed in the October 2019 parade in Beijing.

Having said this, the Apache can use different tactics to shoot and scoot when attacking our forces. Hence why we need CAS planes to go out and knock down enemy helicopters before they can attack our forces.

the Indian strategy is a copy of Soviet/Russian motor rifle division tactics to attack NATO, mixed with some tactical Israeli techniques. If we study how NATO responded and is currently responding to this threat we will learn how to counter it.

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## FuturePAF

If a dual mode Seeker can be equipped to the Turkish WVR missile, then only a few missiles would need to be carried, and each missile would have a much higher probably of hitting the target. It would free up space for other munitions, so that the Hukus or K-8 can carry more fuel and loiter longer, or carry more munitions and each platform would be even more lethal to the enemy.

@Bilal Khan (Quwa)
Bilal Khan (Quwa), What do you think of the Hurkus idea? (starting from post 828)
Why the Indians wont have as large a IR signature as the Saudi F-15s or Tornados, extensive training with the Qatari Apache AH-64E will allow the PAF to know how to handle that platform, and from what range and what system.

Btw: use of WVR missiles like a SAM has good returns: The Yemenis are using R-27s against the Saudi F-15s and Tornados, even downing a Tornado recently.
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...h-r-27-air-to-air-missile-modified-into-a-sam

https://warisboring.com/the-houthis-do-it-yourself-air-defenses-3/









Here is a *Saudi Apache* (Saudis don't operate cobras if I'm not mistaken) shot down with presumably the same IR guided WVR Missile used as a SAM

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## GriffinsRule

FuturePAF said:


> If a dual mode Seeker can be equipped to the Turkish WVR missile, then only a few missiles would need to be carried, and each missile would have a much higher probably of hitting the target. It would free up space for other munitions, so that the Hukus or K-8 can carry more fuel and loiter longer, or carry more munitions and each platform would be even more lethal to the enemy.
> 
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa)
> Bilal Khan (Quwa), What do you think of the Hurkus idea? (starting from post 828)
> Why the Indians wont have as large a IR signature as the Saudi F-15s or Tornados, extensive training with the Qatari Apache AH-64E will allow the PAF to know how to handle that platform, and from what range and what system.
> 
> Btw: use of WVR missiles like a SAM has good returns: The Yemenis are using R-27s against the Saudi F-15s and Tornados, even downing a Tornado recently.
> https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...h-r-27-air-to-air-missile-modified-into-a-sam
> 
> https://warisboring.com/the-houthis-do-it-yourself-air-defenses-3/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a *Saudi Apache* (Saudis don't operate cobras if I'm not mistaken) shot down with presumably the same IR guided WVR Missile used as a SAM



Looks like it comes down to poor tactics and lack of situational awareness. The Tornado ejected flares early but seems to have taken no evasive actions. The Apache didn't eject any flares at all.

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## FuturePAF

GriffinsRule said:


> Looks like it comes down to poor tactics and lack of situational awareness. The Tornado ejected flares early but seems to have taken no evasive actions. The Apache didn't eject any flares at all.



Hence the need for a more robust missile when using them on a CAS platform where advanced enemy helicopters maybe operating

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## Readerdefence

FuturePAF said:


> The houthis probably used a more advanced missile, not a man pad. The Apache is very good at defeating manpads, usually. Also the way Saudi was using the Apache doesn’t seem well planned out. The saudis are also attacking guerrilla forces. With a uniformed army, the Pakistani army will need a system like the Chinese version of Tor to adequately deal with Apaches; the FM-2000 recently displayed in the October 2019 parade in Beijing.
> 
> Having said this, the Apache can use different tactics to shoot and scoot when attacking our forces. Hence why we need CAS planes to go out and knock down enemy helicopters before they can attack our forces.
> 
> the Indian strategy is a copy of Soviet/Russian motor rifle division tactics to attack NATO, mixed with some tactical Israeli techniques. If we study how NATO responded and is currently responding to this threat we will learn how to counter it.


Hi thanks for your detailed input against my Q but what’s your take any idea what kind of houthis were using against Apache my thoughts were if you are already on certain height with a more effective shoulder missile it’s quite possible to scared the opponents 
Though I do agree to the CAS role but if it’s not possible can K/8 fill that gap to some extent 
Thank you

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## FuturePAF

Readerdefence said:


> Hi thanks for your detailed input against my Q but what’s your take any idea what kind of houthis were using against Apache my thoughts were if you are already on certain height with a more effective shoulder missile it’s quite possible to scared the opponents
> Though I do agree to the CAS role but if it’s not possible can K/8 fill that gap to some extent
> Thank you



See videos above, they are using the R-27 IR Guided missile.

Manpads are good against very low and slow targets that don’t have the most modern defenses.

the k-8 is good In the plains as it doesn’t have to land in the mountains. The Hurkus would be better at endurance and can lower its speed enough to safely land in short roads as well as dealing with the wind shears in the mountains. As a manned platform, jamming won’t be as much issue because even if a datalink is lost, its on board sensors are still adequate to get the job done, where as a drone would not be able to operate if the datalink were lost.

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## Incog_nito

What about the idea of acquiring Italian trainers to complement the current fleet of Jet Trainers?

*50: M-345 (Basic & Intermediate Jet Trainer)*
*50: M-346 (Advance Jet Trainer & LIFT)*
*30-50 JF-17B (LIFT & JF-17 Conversion)*


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## FuturePAF

IM Ozair said:


> What about the idea of acquiring Italian trainers to complement the current fleet of Jet Trainers?
> 
> *50: M-345 (Basic & Intermediate Jet Trainer)*
> *50: M-346 (Advance Jet Trainer & LIFT)*
> *30-50 JF-17B (LIFT & JF-17 Conversion)*



Those are all great aircraft but the k-8 is better when you do a cost benefit analysis; especially if you consider that sensors and weapons matter more then the platform up to a point

K-8 are great in the plains because we already have them, and we just need to add the sensors and weapons. We need to keep costs down so we can procure enough assets (weapons and sensors, and new platforms where needed) to deal with the threat; 8 integrated Battle Groups; Brigade to Division sized, organized on the Soviet Motorized Rifle Battalion model, IMHO.

In the mountains using a turboprop which is just fast enough to chase down a helicopter (100 mph speed advantage to the turboprop) but slow enough and maneuverable enough to do "hit and run" and land on short mountain roads, after diving into mountain valleys to do evasive maneuvers.

The planes are just platforms, but they have to be tailored to the terrain and the threat.

Btw: here is the article on the Yemeni use of the R-27
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...h-r-27-air-to-air-missile-modified-into-a-sam

Also, either aircraft should be armed with the Chinese CM-501GA; a 40 km standoff weapon similar to the Spike NLOS, that can take out key elements of enemy forces, such as air defenses or command and control from a distance, so that our forces can have a better chance dealing with the enemy.


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## Incog_nito

FuturePAF said:


> Those are all great aircraft but the k-8 is better when you do a cost benefit analysis; especially if you consider that sensors and weapons matter more then the platform up to a point
> 
> K-8 are great in the plains because we already have them, and we just need to add the sensors and weapons. We need to keep costs down so we can procure enough assets (weapons and sensors, and new platforms where needed) to deal with the threat; 8 integrated Battle Groups; Brigade to Division sized, organized on the Soviet Motorized Rifle Battalion model, IMHO.
> 
> In the mountains using a turboprop which is just fast enough to chase down a helicopter (100 mph speed advantage to the turboprop) but slow enough and maneuverable enough to do "hit and run" and land on short mountain roads, after diving into mountain valleys to do evasive maneuvers.
> 
> The planes are just platforms, but they have to be tailored to the terrain and the threat.
> 
> Btw: here is the article on the Yemeni use of the R-27
> https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...h-r-27-air-to-air-missile-modified-into-a-sam
> 
> Also, either aircraft should be armed with the Chinese CM-501GA; a 40 km standoff weapon similar to the Spike NLOS, that can take out key elements of enemy forces, such as air defenses or command and control from a distance, so that our forces can have a better chance dealing with the enemy.



You are somewhat right. But what I quote is mainly for the training purpose. K-8s are good option to keep them in fleet and use them as multi-purpose machines.


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## FuturePAF

IM Ozair said:


> You are somewhat right. But what I quote is mainly for the training purpose. K-8s are good option to keep them in fleet and use them as multi-purpose machines.



For the Close Air Support the key will be loiter time, but still a manned platform so that jamming can not potentially disable the platform as with a uav.

You are right that Pakistan does have a requirement for a LIFT aircraft. The question that arises is will the LIFT platform be able to fit all the weapons required for the secondary CAS mission. For that reason and for ease of maintenance, perhaps a JF-17 variant would be the ideal platform.

On the other hand, The M-345 seems like a more affordable platform, and with its straight wings, could loiter longer. Hence being better for the CAS mission.

The M-346 seems a larger but more expensive M-345. With its better avionics it maybe the best platform of the three as it can also carry a heavier load then the M-345.


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## Incog_nito

FuturePAF said:


> For the Close Air Support the key will be loiter time, but still a manned platform so that jamming can not potentially disable the platform as with a uav.
> 
> You are right that Pakistan does have a requirement for a LIFT aircraft. The question that arises is will the LIFT platform be able to fit all the weapons required for the secondary CAS mission. For that reason and for ease of maintenance, perhaps a JF-17 variant would be the ideal platform.
> 
> On the other hand, The M-345 seems like a more affordable platform, and with its straight wings, could loiter longer. Hence being better for the CAS mission.
> 
> The M-346 seems a larger but more expensive M-345. With its better avionics it maybe the best platform of the three as it can also carry a heavier load then the M-345.




M-346 is Advanced Jet Trainer & LIFT with CAS Capability. 
M-345 is Basic & Intermediate Jet Trainer with CAS Capability.

Both are somehow the best fit for PAF and have different roles to perform.

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## FuturePAF

IM Ozair said:


> M-346 is Advanced Jet Trainer & LIFT with CAS Capability.
> M-345 is Basic & Intermediate Jet Trainer with CAS Capability.
> Both are somehow the best fit for PAF and have different roles to perform.



The M-346 maybe a better choice. We need a LIFT, we need a CAS platform. That can carry a heavier load with enough power to carry it within a flight envelope that maximize options; able to fly higher for longer range, etc. The M-346 may have Breyer sensors such as a modern Aesa radar and avionics. So overall the M-346 seems to fit many of our needs


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## Incog_nito

FuturePAF said:


> The M-346 maybe a better choice. We need a LIFT, we need a CAS platform. That can carry a heavier load with enough power to carry it within a flight envelope that maximize options; able to fly higher for longer range, etc. The M-346 may have Breyer sensors such as a modern Aesa radar and avionics. So overall the M-346 seems to fit many of our needs



You are right. But we need both M-345 & M-346; just M-346 in more numbers like some for specialized roles.


50-80 M-346 as Dedicated CAS Capability.
50 M-346 as Advanced Jet Trainer & LIFT with limited CAS Capability.

50 M-345 as Basic & Intermediate Jet Trainer with limited CAS Capability.
But L-39NG is also a good option which PAF was looking seriously in the past to acquire for CAS operations especially in the Western side of Pakistan.


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## Ultima Thule

FuturePAF said:


> The M-346 maybe a better choice. We need a LIFT, we need a CAS platform. That can carry a heavier load with enough power to carry it within a flight envelope that maximize options; able to fly higher for longer range, etc. The M-346 may have Breyer sensors such as a modern Aesa radar and avionics. So overall the M-346 seems to fit many of our needs


And also expensive,recently PAF/PAKISTAN shown a interest to Chinese L-15 for our LIFT and CAS role and one version of it equipped with PESA

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## FuturePAF

seven0seven said:


> And also expensive,recently PAF/PAKISTAN shown a interest to Chinese L-15 for our LIFT and CAS role and one version of it equipped with PESA



The L-15 can also be a good option as well, but it should be equipped with an AESA from the start to prevent it from being jammed in the CAS role. L-15 can also serve as an EW platform, freeing up the JF-17 to do the fighter role.



IM Ozair said:


> You are right. But we need both M-345 & M-346; just M-346 in more numbers like some for specialized roles.
> 
> 
> 50-80 M-346 as Dedicated CAS Capability.
> 50 M-346 as Advanced Jet Trainer & LIFT with limited CAS Capability.
> 
> 50 M-345 as Basic & Intermediate Jet Trainer with limited CAS Capability.
> But L-39NG is also a good option which PAF was looking seriously in the past to acquire for CAS operations especially in the Western side of Pakistan.



K-8 and Hurkus maybe best for the Western Border, but a higher end (modern avionics and data-links) platform would be best for a conflict with India. either the K-8 can be upgraded to that level, or the M-346 or L-15 can be acquired with modern sub-systems.

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## Ultima Thule

FuturePAF said:


> The L-15 can also be a good option as well, but it should be equipped with an AESA from the start to prevent it from being jammed in the CAS role. L-15 can also serve as an EW platform, freeing up the JF-17 to do the fighter role.


On customer request, may be if PAF ask to fit L-15 with AESA so there is a option fr L-15 named LFK601E

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## khanasifm

Take fcu k-8 and install Grifo-7 from f-7 and hands on throttle and stick and use it as LIFT with 800 km max speed and good landing and take off speed should be good enough 

end of story 

I am sure paf know what right , spoke to someone he said cost wise k-8 Engine is as good as turbo prop and speed wise it close combat speed 450 knots 

it may need more powerful engine in certain regime but paf with small budget cannot afford adding new aircraft for small 20/30 fleet of new type better to stick to same type

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## AsifIjaz

Does anyone have an idea about how gud is the ukranian al225 product compared to the honeywell engine 731-4 currently used on the k8.
If my memory doesnt fail me then motor sich was preparing 2 new variants with one having an afterburner as well..
On the other hand there are variants of the honeywell engine which might enable us "theoretically " to get a better output from our existing ones like rd93 or just may be upgrade the current ones or use the newer variants during overhaul. 
Either motor sich engines (Itar free) or a better product from honeywell may allow us to upgrade existing or make newer k8 and install a pesa/aesa with newer avionics and etc..
If china agrees then the lessons learned from thunder production can be used to make k8 wing roots and wing more stronger with better manufacturing techniques and using composites while retaining the same aerodynamic profile. This i believe wud be the most cost effective solution.

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## GriffinsRule

03-809 K-8 under overhaul at PAC

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## Haris Ali2140

@GriffinsRule @Quwa @Dazzler 
Hey what about Hurjet as a LIFT platform???

These are specs from official site:

*FEATURES*
*- High AoA controllability*
- Head-Up Display (HUD)

- Helmet Mounted Display (optional)

- Full authority, Digital Fly-by-Wire FCS

- State-of-the-art HMI, minimum conversion time to F-35 and TF

- Intra & Inter datalink

- NVG compatible (AJT, LIFT)

- Aerial refueling

- Carefree handling

- Embedded Tactical Training & Live Virtual Constructive Training Systems

- APU for autonomous operation also from austere airfield

ROLES


Advanced Jet Trainer
Lead-in Fighter Trainer
Light Attack (Close Air Support)
Red Aircraft
Air Policing (Armed & Unarmed)
Acro Team _Aircraft_


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## Incog_nito

Haris Ali2140 said:


> @GriffinsRule @Quwa @Dazzler
> Hey what about Hurjet as a LIFT platform???
> 
> These are specs from official site:
> 
> *FEATURES*
> *- High AoA controllability*
> - Head-Up Display (HUD)
> 
> - Helmet Mounted Display (optional)
> 
> - Full authority, Digital Fly-by-Wire FCS
> 
> - State-of-the-art HMI, minimum conversion time to F-35 and TF
> 
> - Intra & Inter datalink
> 
> - NVG compatible (AJT, LIFT)
> 
> - Aerial refueling
> 
> - Carefree handling
> 
> - Embedded Tactical Training & Live Virtual Constructive Training Systems
> 
> - APU for autonomous operation also from austere airfield
> 
> ROLES
> 
> 
> Advanced Jet Trainer
> Lead-in Fighter Trainer
> Light Attack (Close Air Support)
> Red Aircraft
> Air Policing (Armed & Unarmed)
> Acro Team _Aircraft_


is this for K-8?


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## Haris Ali2140

Oz@ir Akhtar said:


> is this for K-8?


No. For Hurjet.


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## Incog_nito

Haris Ali2140 said:


> No. For Hurjet.


is PAF interested in it?


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## airomerix

PAF K-8P equipped head seeking AAM and 27mm canon underneath. 

K-8s are tasked to be used in a variety of missions in combat such as close air support, enemy helicopter hunting, convoy escort, etc.

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## Incog_nito

PAC can work on it's own in developing K-8 Block-2 with the following features:


Composite
Improved Engine
Improved Avionics with Sensors
Landing Gears like JF-17s
Allowing more hardpoints on wings.
Nose gear retract inwards allowing space for radar sensor.

DSI
Though the cost will go up, but it will provide a cheaper alternative for close air support aircraft for many world militaries.

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## DESERT FIGHTER



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## Raider 21

Here is one from years ago, recorded this while I was just starting high school





Also here is an aerobatics team that fields the K-8. Interesting is that, these too are a part time display team, all full-time IPs

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## Adam_Khan

Knuckles said:


> Here is one from years ago, recorded this while I was just starting high school
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also here is an aerobatics team that fields the K-8. Interesting is that, these too are a part time display team, all full-time IPs




Nice find,they use same 9 ship formation. Almost same camo and same set of maneuvers though my vote goes to the Egyptian team.


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## Raider 21

Adam_Khan said:


> Nice find,they use same 9 ship formation. Almost same camo and same set of maneuvers though my vote goes to the Egyptian team.


Same, I vote for the Egyptians. Maneuvers are way better and more dynamic. Watch the entire video, some of their moves are even more daring than the European aerobatic teams.


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## Ahmet Pasha

This time K8 performance was much better than last times. They tried some red arrow manoeuvres. Gotta give em that.


Knuckles said:


> Same, I vote for the Egyptians. Maneuvers are way better and more dynamic. Watch the entire video, some of their moves are even more daring than the European aerobatic teams.


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## Nomad40

Knuckles said:


> Here is one from years ago, recorded this while I was just starting high school
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also here is an aerobatics team that fields the K-8. Interesting is that, these too are a part time display team, all full-time IPs


I remember this, my father picked me up early from school and we went there I could piratically see them over my house.

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## Raider 21

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> I remember this, my father picked me up early from school and we went there I could piratically see them over my house.


I recorded this on TV as at the time they didn't allow people below 18 or so to enter the exhibition. It was the first airshow where I also saw the Rafale and the F-16 Block 60 being displayed, the Rafale guy flew an awesome demo.

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## Nomad40

Knuckles said:


> I recorded this on TV as at the time they didn't allow people below 18 or so to enter the exhibition. It was the first airshow where I also saw the Rafale and the F-16 Block 60 being displayed, the Rafale guy flew an awesome demo.


Yes I used to watch it from the roundabout near the air port I remember seeing the Mig-29 doing a tail slide right on top of us.


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## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/Hongdu-K-8P-Karakorum/2701


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## Sinnerman108

airomerix said:


> PAF K-8P equipped head seeking AAM and 27mm canon underneath.
> 
> K-8s are tasked to be used in a variety of missions in combat such as close air support, enemy helicopter hunting, convoy escort, etc.
> 
> View attachment 623271



If it is close combat, what is the AAM for ?
Hunting helicopters in bulk ?

Anyway, K8 will need larger wings, and a more powerful engine to be of any use. 

Cheers.

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## PanzerKiel

Sinnerman108 said:


> If it is close combat, what is the AAM for ?
> Hunting helicopters in bulk ?
> 
> Anyway, K8 will need larger wings, and a more powerful engine to be of any use.
> 
> Cheers.



That short range AAM, it helps it in defending itself as a last resort, or ofcourse, heli hunting. K8s do have a good potential as an interim CS aircraft.

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## JPMM

PanzerKiel said:


> That short range AAM, it helps it in defending itself as a last resort, or ofcourse, heli hunting. K8s do have a good potential as an interim CS aircraft.


Shoot down by MANPADs like flies, even German/Portuguese Alpha Jets had a special EW suit pack in the back seat instead of 2nd pilot, and Chaffs/Flares

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## Phantom.

Sinnerman108 said:


> If it is close combat, what is the AAM for ?
> Hunting helicopters in bulk ?
> 
> Anyway, K8 will need larger wings, and a more powerful engine to be of any use.
> 
> Cheers.


PL5 AAM

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## airomerix

Sinnerman108 said:


> If it is close combat, what is the AAM for ?
> Hunting helicopters in bulk ?
> 
> Anyway, K8 will need larger wings, and a more powerful engine to be of any use.
> 
> Cheers.



Yes it is for hunting heli's, UAVs.

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## khanasifm

airomerix said:


> PAF K-8P equipped head seeking AAM and 27mm canon underneath.
> 
> K-8s are tasked to be used in a variety of missions in combat such as close air support, enemy helicopter hunting, convoy escort, etc.
> 
> View attachment 623271




23 mm gun pack Chinese version of perhaps gsh-23

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## Scorpiooo

Can be see permanent sqr of k8 Covented to light groud support role for PA and PAF in future ?


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## airomerix



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## mingle

airomerix said:


> View attachment 631946


K8


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## khanasifm

airomerix said:


> View attachment 631946




Old k8 cockpit from 80s newer ~2000 time k8p had hud and different proper Hdd all 1fcu has that standarD and older k8 part of rebuild / overhaul after completion of 2000 hours are getting it As well perhaps all fleet may be at same std By now 












khanasifm said:


> Old k8 cockpit newer k8p had hud and different proper Hdd all 1fcu has that standar and older k8 part of rebuild / overhaul after completion of 2000 hours are getting it to perhaps all fleet may be at same std



older k8 Chinese

https://thaimilitaryandasianregion.wordpress.com/2015/11/page/5/


Newer cockpit

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## HAIDER

FuturePAF said:


> If a dual mode Seeker can be equipped to the Turkish WVR missile, then only a few missiles would need to be carried, and each missile would have a much higher probably of hitting the target. It would free up space for other munitions, so that the Hukus or K-8 can carry more fuel and loiter longer, or carry more munitions and each platform would be even more lethal to the enemy.
> 
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa)
> Bilal Khan (Quwa), What do you think of the Hurkus idea? (starting from post 828)
> Why the Indians wont have as large a IR signature as the Saudi F-15s or Tornados, extensive training with the Qatari Apache AH-64E will allow the PAF to know how to handle that platform, and from what range and what system.
> 
> Btw: use of WVR missiles like a SAM has good returns: The Yemenis are using R-27s against the Saudi F-15s and Tornados, even downing a Tornado recently.
> https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...h-r-27-air-to-air-missile-modified-into-a-sam
> 
> https://warisboring.com/the-houthis-do-it-yourself-air-defenses-3/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a *Saudi Apache* (Saudis don't operate cobras if I'm not mistaken) shot down with presumably the same IR guided WVR Missile used as a SAM


Russian R27 in action, shotdown F15
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...h-r-27-air-to-air-missile-modified-into-a-sam
Yemani were trained by Russians and they have deep knowledge of using those weapons. They are not even sparing Chinese latest drones. Blue Arrow-7 air-to-surface anti-tank missiles seem to be visible

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## airomerix

RAF detachment at No.1 FCU 'Rahbars', PAF base Mianwali

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## GriffinsRule

airomerix said:


> RAF detachment at No.1 FCU 'Rahbars', PAF base Mianwali
> 
> View attachment 632423


Red Arrows team or IPs?


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## denel

airomerix said:


> Yes it is for hunting heli's, UAVs.


not true.... there is a lot it can do. This is in same class as our Impala. Impalas took the brunt of the fight in Angola - they were flying at 10m in most cases; it had to be beefed up with ECM/EW to counter the russian equipment. At peak over 220+ were in front operation.


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## airomerix

GriffinsRule said:


> Red Arrows team or IPs?



IP's



denel said:


> not true.... there is a lot it can do. This is in same class as our Impala. Impalas took the brunt of the fight in Angola - they were flying at 10m in most cases; it had to be beefed up with ECM/EW to counter the russian equipment. At peak over 220+ were in front operation.



Not true? Alot it can do? 

Can you please be a little specific? What other purpose do AAMs serve on a K-8?

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## denel

airomerix said:


> IP's
> 
> 
> 
> Not true? Alot it can do?
> 
> Can you please be a little specific? What other purpose do AAMs serve on a K-8?


Not for AAM - I was speaking about other roles for K-8; AAMs are in general a waste of time for this aircraft unless it is for last ditch effort against helo gunships but even that is debateable. However, in smaller airforces, AAM are needed as they take up the role of point defence where J-7 take up the higher notch e.g. Namibia as a casing point.

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## Scorpiooo

*The National Air Force of Angola (FANA) has reportedly received an unknown number of Hongdu K-8 (Karakorum-8) trainer/light attack *aircraft from China.

“The National Air Force of Angola (FANA) has now taken delivery of six Hongdu K-8W Karakorums. Another six are set to be delivered this year,.

The acquisition was revealed after a K-9 jet with Angolan markings was spotted in an image being shared in China’s Weibo in March 2019. The aircraft had a cover over its cockpit and the leading edge of its tail had been removed, indicating it was either still under construction or getting ready to be shipped, Strategic Intelligence wrote last year.

In the same month, Scramble Magazine reported that Angola ordered 4 K-8s under a $52 million deal with China’s AVIC firm, with an option to buy four more.

The K-8 has a top speed of 800kmph. It is powered by Ukrainian AI-25TLK turbofan or a Chinese WS-11 (an AI-25TLK clone) engines developing 1680kg of thrust. Some export models are said to be powered by TFE731-2A turbofan developing 1600kg of thrust.

Maximum takeoff weight of the jet is 4470 kg and maximum range 2200 km. Export versions of the K-8 features Martin Baker ejection seats, a glass cockpit with head up display, multi-function displays and ability to carry PL-5E/PL-7 air-to-air missiles and a 23 mm gun pod.


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## Ali_Baba

Looking at the National Air Force of Angola, they have a lot of Mig21/Mig23/Su22/Su25 all of which can be replaced with the JF17. The K8 maybe the first step in establishing a Chinese pipeline in their inventory and one which could lead to the JF17 for them.


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## mingle

Ali_Baba said:


> Looking at the National Air Force of Angola, they have a lot of Mig21/Mig23/Su22/Su25 all of which can be replaced with the JF17. The K8 maybe the first step in establishing a Chinese pipeline in their inventory and one which could lead to the JF17 for them.


Angola is another strong candidate for LM blk 70 V standard

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## Scorpiooo

mingle said:


> Angola is another strong candidate for LM blk 70 V standard


How many any idea ?


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## Ultima Thule

Scorpiooo said:


> How many any idea ?


Do you know what is the meaning of SARCASM dude, and @mingle doing that, Angola have no money to buy JF-17 block-1 and forget about block-70


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## mingle

IAU said:


> Do you know what is the meaning of SARCASM dude, and @mingle doing that, Angola have no money to buy JF-17 block-1 and forget about block-70


I am serous trust me i read somewhere


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## Ultima Thule

mingle said:


> I am serous trust me i read somewhere


Where??? And when???


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## Scorpiooo

IAU said:


> Do you know what is the meaning of SARCASM dude, and @mingle doing that, Angola have no money to buy JF-17 block-1 and forget about block-70


Can be cast of CSFvor FMS fund otherwise they cant offered jet fuel

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## mingle

Scorpiooo said:


> Can be cast of CSFvor FMS fund otherwise they cant offered jet fuel


There are other African countries too one is Angola, Tunisia, Ethiopia, even Botswana


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## fatman17

The #Hongdu #K8 is China's most successfully exported military aircraft. Been fortunate to fly in the K-8 in Sri Lanka (first one with a #PakAirForce pilot!) and in Pakistan several times. Was lucky enough to make a shoot with three #Sherdils over the massive Tarbela Dam in 2017. https://t.co/umj2XFdI5k

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## fatman17

Never saw this before

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## Scorpiooo

fatman17 said:


> Never saw this before
> View attachment 635338


This is new color scheme for shardil acrobats team


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## Incog_nito

Can some 50 M-345 complement the fleet of K-8s in PAF?


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## JPMM

mingle said:


> Angola is another strong candidate for LM blk 70 V standard


12 Su-30KN (ordered October 2013, delivered December 2017 from Bielorussia)
They want 6 more
http://www.passarodeferro.com/2019/04/nova-entrega-de-su-30-para-angola-m2032.html

https://www.portaldeangola.com/2019...ega-de-mais-2-em-maio-diz-ministro-da-defesa/

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## denel

JPMM said:


> 12 Su-30KN (ordered October 2013, delivered December 2017 from Bielorussia)
> They want 6 more
> http://www.passarodeferro.com/2019/04/nova-entrega-de-su-30-para-angola-m2032.html
> 
> https://www.portaldeangola.com/2019...ega-de-mais-2-em-maio-diz-ministro-da-defesa/


bon dia. pa - angola has enough flush cash to get a good trainer. L-39 already should be good enough but I am sure russians will lobby them for their training aircraft.

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## JPMM

denel said:


> bon dia. pa - angola has enough flush cash to get a good trainer. L-39 already should be good enough but I am sure russians will lobby them for their training aircraft.


Olá Amigo! They are cash pressure, I vote in Chinese aircraft, its cheaper.

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## Incog_nito

Is PAC and China working on the Block-II of this trainer?


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## ghazi52

The National Air Force of Angola (FANA) has now taken delivery of six Hongdu K-8W Karakorums. Another six are set to be delivered this year. This example, 1-65 was one of the first six. Credit: CATIC




6

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## denel

Incog_nito said:


> Is PAC and China working on the Block-II of this trainer?


Nope. K8 has been abandoned by PAC. THere is a lot of potential but it has taken 2nd fiddle.


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## syed_yusuf

denel said:


> Nope. K8 has been abandoned by PAC. THere is a lot of potential but it has taken 2nd fiddle.


Last i know PAC partnership in overall k8 was reduced to 25% from 45%


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## Bossman

syed_yusuf said:


> Last i know PAC partnership in overall k8 was reduced to 25% from 45%


It was always 25%

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## Incog_nito

denel said:


> Nope. K8 has been abandoned by PAC. THere is a lot of potential but it has taken 2nd fiddle.


So, is PAF interested in something like:

M345 for Basic & Intermediate Jet Trainers
M346 for Advance Jet Trainers

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## denel

Incog_nito said:


> So, is PAF interested in something like:
> 
> M345 for Basic & Intermediate Jet Trainers
> M346 for Advance Jet Trainers


only god knows. there was no coherent outlook.

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## Incog_nito

denel said:


> only god knows. there was no coherent outlook.



But if PAF isn't showing any interest in K-8 future development then it means they are into something else.


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## denel

Incog_nito said:


> But if PAF isn't showing any interest in K-8 future development then it means they are into something else.


THey have not been into anything - sorry to burst your bubble.

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## Bossman

denel said:


> THey have not been into anything - sorry to burst your bubble.


How do you know that?

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## denel

Bossman said:


> How do you know that?


PAF are not engineers... they are flyers and end users.

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## niaz

denel said:


> Nope. K8 has been abandoned by PAC. THere is a lot of potential but it has taken 2nd fiddle.



In my humble opinion, the main problem with K-8 is Speed. Ideally, you need a trans-sonic or supersonic aircraft for a "Lead-in" fighter trainer. Often an advanced trainer able to fly at least at 1000 Km per hour if not more; K-8 at max 800 Km/H top speed is too slow.

A more powerful engine may solve the problem, but it may require too much effort and expense, and the results are not guaranteed. It is probable that PAF planners think an off-shelf advanced trainer is a better option.

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## denel

niaz said:


> In my humble opinion, the main problem with K-8 is Speed. Ideally, you need a trans-sonic or supersonic aircraft for a "Lead-in" fighter trainer. Often an advanced trainer able to fly at least at 1000 Km per hour if not more; K-8 at mx 800 Km/H top speed is too slow.
> 
> A more powerful engine may solve the problem, but it may require too much effort and expense, and the results are not guaranteed. It probable that PAF planners think an off-shelf advanced trainer is a better option.



From an industry prespective, this platform is a very good seller and continues to sell even today. If you look at how the Safari was modified and improved; there is no reason why it cannot be done so here. Note - I am drawing a distinction between PAC - the actual engineering works vs the user - PAF. Continous development is part of the process.

Even with off the shelf, it will not give you any benefit from local manufacturing, it is the same problem area back to square one.


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## HAIDER

MZUBAIR said:


> K8 with L-15 ...a nice *training and light attack combination*. One is subsonic and other is supersonic.
> 
> View attachment 132241
> 
> 
> View attachment 132242


L15 is cute bird, but K8 can accommodate bigger radar then L15 and also more room for modification. K8 was designed for American engine ,The K-8 is powered by a single Garrett TFE731-2A-2A turbofan engine designed and built by Honeywell Aerospace. The engine generates 16.01kN of thrust. It features a single-stage high-pressure turbine, a three-stage low-pressure turbine, annular combustors, digital electronic engine control (DEEC) and a single centrifugal high-pressure compressor stage.
Where L15 is powered by two Ivchenko Progress AI-222K-25F afterburning turbofan engines. Each engine can generate 4,200kg of thrust afterburner.


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## Bossman

denel said:


> PAF are not engineers... they are flyers and end users.


They are also engineers they have to be. Many with advanced degrees including Phds.


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## denel

Bossman said:


> They are also engineers they have to be. Many with advanced degrees including Phds.


Sorry... they need to be doing their job what they are supposed to do... focus on flying and maintenance. Manufacturing... so my dear watson. they are now going to be doing engine design etc etc. wow. Amazing high pedestal you are putting these dodo birds with a change on job description.

no further discussion. back to K8.

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## Bossman

denel said:


> Sorry... they need to be doing their job what they are supposed to do... focus on flying and maintenance. Manufacturing... so my dear watson. they are now going to be doing engine design etc etc. wow. Amazing high pedestal you are putting these dodo birds with a change on job description.
> 
> no further discussion. back to K8.


Well they worked with China to create the JF17 with more than 100 flying, they have exported 100s of Mashaks including to your country, they have kept 50 year old Mirages contemporary battle worthy. You are talking about Pakistan, our private or the civilian public sector does not have the capacity to manage such projects. If PAF didn’t do it nobody else would have. Maybe it can be corporatized in the future. Coming from a country without a serious airforce and which was not able to export even one of its indigenous attack helicopters you should avoid making sweeping, ill informed statements. Your post are usually good but this time you distinctly reminded me of the village idiot on this forum I.e Mastaan Khan


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## JamD

Bossman said:


> Well they worked with China to create the JF17 with more than 100 flying, they have exported 100s of Mashaks including to your country, they have kept 50 year old Mirages contemporary battle worthy. You are talking about Pakistan, our private or the civilian public sector does not have the capacity to manage such projects. If PAF didn’t do it nobody else would have. Maybe it can be corporatized in the future. Coming from a country without a serious airforce and which was not able to export even one of its indigenous attack helicopters you should avoid making sweeping, ill informed statements. Your post are usually good but this time you distinctly reminded me of the village idiot on this forum I.e Mastaan Khan


I've been following your conversation with denel and didnt feel the need to respond but this post has forced me to respond.

Firstly, PAF engineers played only a small part in the design of the JF-17. It is a jet primarily designed by CAC. PAF engineers gave design directions and steered some aspects of the design. All the nitty gritty was done by the Chinese. We manufacture large parts of it but we certainly did not design it ourselves. You overestimate our capability by a lot.

Secondly, the reason our private sector does not have any capacity is due to the very conscious effort to stifle its growth. You can read my posts on the forum or @Bilal Khan (Quwa)'s @PAR 5's for details of what I mean. There is horrendous redtape for any private sector defence company and all contracts go to China. Furthermore SOEs like PAC wont even let pvt sector make screws. Pvt sector all over the world in defence exists because governments fund them. They cant foot the bill for super expensive defence R&D based on the profits they dont make because our armed forces just go and buy Chinese.

Thirdly, South Africa's defense industry is WAHY more advanced than ours. I cant even believe I have to say this. Pakistan regularly sends engineers to South Africa for courses and training. We buy a lot of tech from them. So I would really take what South Africa has to say on this much more seriously.

Lastly, always be respectful. There is never a need for name calling.

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## Bossman

JamD said:


> I've been following your conversation with denel and didnt feel the need to respond but this post has forced me to respond.
> 
> Firstly, PAF engineers played only a small part in the design of the JF-17. It is a jet primarily designed by CAC. PAF engineers gave design directions and steered some aspects of the design. All the nitty gritty was done by the Chinese. We manufacture large parts of it but we certainly did not design it ourselves. You overestimate our capability by a lot.
> 
> Secondly, the reason our private sector does not have any capacity is due to the very conscious effort to stifle its growth. You can read my posts on the forum or @Bilal Khan (Quwa)'s @PAR 5's for details of what I mean. There is horrendous redtape for any private sector defence company and all contracts go to China. Furthermore SOEs like PAC wont even let pvt sector make screws. Pvt sector all over the world in defence exists because governments fund them. They cant foot the bill for super expensive defence R&D based on the profits they dont make because our armed forces just go and buy Chinese.
> 
> Thirdly, South Africa's defense industry is WAHY more advanced than ours. I cant even believe I have to say this. Pakistan regularly sends engineers to South Africa for courses and training. We buy a lot of tech from them. So I would really take what South Africa has to say on this much more seriously.
> 
> Lastly, always be respectful. There is never a need for name calling.





JamD said:


> I've been following your conversation with denel and didnt feel the need to respond but this post has forced me to respond.
> 
> Firstly, PAF engineers played only a small part in the design of the JF-17. It is a jet primarily designed by CAC. PAF engineers gave design directions and steered some aspects of the design. All the nitty gritty was done by the Chinese. We manufacture large parts of it but we certainly did not design it ourselves. You overestimate our capability by a lot.
> 
> Secondly, the reason our private sector does not have any capacity is due to the very conscious effort to stifle its growth. You can read my posts on the forum or @Bilal Khan (Quwa)'s @PAR 5's for details of what I mean. There is horrendous redtape for any private sector defence company and all contracts go to China. Furthermore SOEs like PAC wont even let pvt sector make screws. Pvt sector all over the world in defence exists because governments fund them. They cant foot the bill for super expensive defence R&D based on the profits they dont make because our armed forces just go and buy Chinese.
> 
> Thirdly, South Africa's defense industry is WAHY more advanced than ours. I cant even believe I have to say this. Pakistan regularly sends engineers to South Africa for courses and training. We buy a lot of tech from them. So I would really take what South Africa has to say on this much more seriously.
> 
> Lastly, always be respectful. There is never a need for name calling.



I know everything you just said but you are as ill informed as Denel, maybe you are the same. South African aviation was created before the apartheid and now it is pretty much dying. Their engineers are coming to work for countries like Pakistan or have emigrated. I don’t want a two bit South African to be bad mouthing PAF’s effort. And you as well as Denal and Quwa are so wrong about the capability of non-military sector in Pakistan. Obvious none of you are close to Pakistan or have ever lived here.


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## JamD

Bossman said:


> I know everything you just said but you are as ill informed as Denel, maybe you are the same. South African aviation was created before the apartheid and now it is pretty much dying. Their engineers are coming to work for countries like Pakistan or have emigrated. I don’t want a two bit South African to be bad mouthing PAF’s effort. And you as well as Denal and Quwa are so wrong about the capability of non-military sector in Pakistan. Obvious none of you are close to Pakistan or have ever lived here.


lol ok.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

The private sector _can _support the armed forces, but it'll only happen when the armed forces decide to support the local economy. @JamD clearly brought up the example of simple stuff such as screws and bolts. If the armed forces can't even open up that -- even though the private sector can definitely supply it -- then forget anything more. There isn't going to be any growth in our industry, we'll instead scurry off to China or Europe and help their industries. 

The right policy is to open up the supply of inputs to the private sector and _incentivize _them to expand their capacity and develop new products. 

It starts with low-end stuff like nuts and bolts, but it gradually moves up to fuzes, polymers, composites, steel, and eventually to complete parts, structures, etc. It culminates in entire systems.

If they get the simple business, they'll build capacity to meet the need and, in turn, use the proceeds to grow and get better. That's how business works. It's been like this for thousands of years, but only fails when there's an unnatural element in the mix -- like gov't sanctioned monopolies, rent-seeking, etc. 

Our problem is that we think it'd be a long process, and yes, we could be looking at 15-20 years. But that was true back in 2000, and back in 1980, and back in 1960, and even in 1947. In fact, in 1949, we got close to starting on the right path when the PAF was working with a tycoon from Hyderabad-Deccan to bring the P-80/F-80 production line (starting with assembly and moving to manufacturing) to Pakistan.

But that program failed because some babus decided it was a better idea to pick up the Supermarine Attacker from Britain. Herein lies the problem. We got babus who'll throw up excuses like "urgency" and what have you to burn precious hard currency on foreign goods without even as much as an offset deal (which could see at least some of that money return to our economy). 

Today, we have a willing South Africa wanting to partner with us to co-develop tech -- and we know they've got expertise on rockets for AAM/SAM, turbojets for LACMs, etc -- yet we're ripping our hair out on how to improve on the SD-10. And to climb to the next step, we're willing to take on an even bigger expense for something we may not need, even though we can spend less and collaborate with others.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Didn't Sohail Aman say he wanted to see more Public-Private partnerships?


Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The private sector _can _support the armed forces, but it'll only happen when the armed forces decide to support the local economy. @JamD clearly brought up the example of simple stuff such as screws and bolts. If the armed forces can't even open up that -- even though the private sector can definitely supply it -- then forget anything more. There isn't going to be any growth in our industry, we'll instead scurry off to China or Europe and help their industries.
> 
> The right policy is to open up the supply of inputs to the private sector and _incentivize _them to expand their capacity and develop new products.
> 
> It starts with low-end stuff like nuts and bolts, but it gradually moves up to fuzes, polymers, composites, steel, and eventually to complete parts, structures, etc. It culminates in entire systems.
> 
> If they get the simple business, they'll build capacity to meet the need and, in turn, use the proceeds to grow and get better. That's how business works. It's been like this for thousands of years, but only fails when there's an unnatural element in the mix -- like gov't sanctioned monopolies, rent-seeking, etc.
> 
> Our problem is that we think it'd be a long process, and yes, we could be looking at 15-20 years. But that was true back in 2000, and back in 1980, and back in 1960, and even in 1947. In fact, in 1949, we got close to starting on the right path when the PAF was working with a tycoon from Hyderabad-Deccan to bring the P-80/F-80 production line (starting with assembly and moving to manufacturing) to Pakistan.
> 
> But that program failed because some babus decided it was a better idea to pick up the Supermarine Attacker from Britain. Herein lies the problem. We got babus who'll throw up excuses like "urgency" and what have you to burn precious hard currency on foreign goods without even as much as an offset deal (which could see at least some of that money return to our economy).
> 
> Today, we have a willing South Africa wanting to partner with us to co-develop tech -- and we know they've got expertise on rockets for AAM/SAM, turbojets for LACMs, etc -- yet we're ripping our hair out on how to improve on the SD-10. And to climb to the next step, we're willing to take on an even bigger expense for something we may not need, even though we can spend less and collaborate with others.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Didn't Sohail Aman say he wanted to see more Public-Private partnerships?


The PAF seems to be more open to this, but there's a long way to go. It starts with a lot of unlearning of bad habits (like over-bearing red-tape) and learning new things at the leadership and institutional level. It won't be easy.

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## PAR 5

The problem with the military mindset regarding the private sector in Pakistan is that no one wants to invest in R&D required to develop modern weapons systems. Military mantra for the private sector is NO COST NO OBLIGATION BASIS which essentially means you do it at your cost while we think about buying it or not. This convoluted thinking by military planners is the single reason why the many major capable companies in Pakistan refrain from supporting the defence set ups. Anyone having any doubts regarding Pakistan private sector ability should read Usman Ansari’s latest article in Defence News (also posted on this forum). No country in the world can develop its private sector for defence production until such time the Military actually invests in the proposed programs.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

PAR 5 said:


> The problem with the military mindset regarding the private sector in Pakistan is that no one wants to invest in R&D required to develop modern weapons systems. Military mantra for the private sector is NO COST NO OBLIGATION BASIS which essentially means you do it at your cost while we think about buying it or not. This convoluted thinking by military planners is the single reason why the many major capable companies in Pakistan refrain from supporting the defence set ups. Anyone having any doubts regarding Pakistan private sector ability should read Usman Ansari’s latest article in Defence News (also posted on this forum). No country in the world can develop its private sector for defence production until such time the Military actually invests in the proposed programs.


Exactly. The other issue is that with all that vertical integration, the armed forces are spending more on fixed -- and underutilized -- overhead. There's a cost to maintaining an HIT that rolls out only 50% of its al-Khalid output; there is a cost to maintaining those screw/bolt facilities at PAC; there's a cost for the Kinder Surprise shenanigans at POF; and so on. We are sinking a part of our defence budget in that overhead _instead _of procurement.

This is not an efficient -- or fair -- use of public funding. This is actually unjust to the Pakistani taxpayer who is not only footing the bill for defence, but now a spate of inefficiencies caused by generals who literally aren't doing their job (which is war on the battlefield, not on the board table).

The right approach is to shift that overhead to the private sector. This will do several things. First, it'll free overlay in the armed forces (which they can put into purchases). Second, the private sector will find a way to use that capacity -- either to efficiently supply the armed forces, or to drive exports (and bring ForEx).

Even in Turkey, the big state-owned entities (e.g., TAI, STM, etc) rely on the private sector to supply a lot of the key inputs. In turn, they spend more time on design and R&D, but actively work to transfer production (which is a costly overhead) to the private sector.

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## GriffinsRule

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Our problem is that we think it'd be a long process, and yes, we could be looking at 15-20 years. But that was true back in 2000, and back in 1980, and back in 1960, and even in 1947. In fact, in 1949, we got close to starting on the right path when the PAF was working with a tycoon from Hyderabad-Deccan to bring the P-80/F-80 production line (starting with assembly and moving to manufacturing) to Pakistan.
> 
> But that program failed because some babus decided it was a better idea to pick up the Supermarine Attacker from Britain. Herein lies the problem. We got babus who'll throw up excuses like "urgency" and what have you to burn precious hard currency on foreign goods without even as much as an offset deal (which could see at least some of that money return to our economy).


I will point out that your assertion here about the babus is in fact misplaced. Decisions to go for Supermarine Attacker and other transport aircraft at that time were due to the RAF chiefs in charge of the RPAF back in the early days and they wanted to line their pockets and didnt care for PAF.

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## Falcon26

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The PAF seems to be more open to this, but there's a long way to go. It starts with a lot of unlearning of bad habits (like over-bearing red-tape) and learning new things at the leadership and institutional level. It won't be easy.



I know you have Quwa but have you thought of writing an opinion piece on Dawn or other Pakistani newspapers making these arguments?


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## denel

PAR 5 said:


> The problem with the military mindset regarding the private sector in Pakistan is that no one wants to invest in R&D required to develop modern weapons systems. Military mantra for the private sector is NO COST NO OBLIGATION BASIS which essentially means you do it at your cost while we think about buying it or not. This convoluted thinking by military planners is the single reason why the many major capable companies in Pakistan refrain from supporting the defence set ups. Anyone having any doubts regarding Pakistan private sector ability should read Usman Ansari’s latest article in Defence News (also posted on this forum). No country in the world can develop its private sector for defence production until such time the Military actually invests in the proposed programs.


This is exactly the problem statement - there are other vested interests. Until there is a tacit dictatum to innovate and build locally to buy locally the status will remain. Every bit of brain power needed or even solutions will be outsourced to China.
Forget the fact you want military hardware - start with the basics - alloys productions etc. Surely is that not the base for manufacturing.



Bossman said:


> Well they worked with China to create the JF17 with more than 100 flying, they have exported 100s of Mashaks including to your country, they have kept 50 year old Mirages contemporary battle worthy. You are talking about Pakistan, our private or the civilian public sector does not have the capacity to manage such projects. If PAF didn’t do it nobody else would have. Maybe it can be corporatized in the future. Coming from a country without a serious airforce and which was not able to export even one of its indigenous attack helicopters you should avoid making sweeping, ill informed statements. Your post are usually good but this time you distinctly reminded me of the village idiot on this forum I.e Mastaan Khan


Complete b/s.... you have no clue on how baseless reply you are putting. I will not even dignify a response to your claims which are laughable.



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Exactly. The other issue is that with all that vertical integration, the armed forces are spending more on fixed -- and underutilized -- overhead. There's a cost to maintaining an HIT that rolls out only 50% of its al-Khalid output; there is a cost to maintaining those screw/bolt facilities at PAC; there's a cost for the Kinder Surprise shenanigans at POF; and so on. We are sinking a part of our defence budget in that overhead _instead _of procurement.
> 
> This is not an efficient -- or fair -- use of public funding. This is actually unjust to the Pakistani taxpayer who is not only footing the bill for defence, but now a spate of inefficiencies caused by generals who literally aren't doing their job (which is war on the battlefield, not on the board table).
> 
> The right approach is to shift that overhead to the private sector. This will do several things. First, it'll free overlay in the armed forces (which they can put into purchases). Second, the private sector will find a way to use that capacity -- either to efficiently supply the armed forces, or to drive exports (and bring ForEx).
> 
> Even in Turkey, the big state-owned entities (e.g., TAI, STM, etc) rely on the private sector to supply a lot of the key inputs. In turn, they spend more time on design and R&D, but actively work to transfer production (which is a costly overhead) to the private sector.


Bilal, you have hit the nail on the head bang on.

Dodo birds should be focusing on what they are paid for... be at the borders not being project managers, trying to run the show when it is out of their league. As you and I have stated, there needs to be a client/seller demarkation. This is not being done.

The challenge is the mindset... first putting dodo birds on a high pedestal and then letting them have fingers in all pots; this is grossly incoherent of any sound policy or process and the results are in front of all to see.

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## Bossman

denel said:


> This is exactly the problem statement - there are other vested interests. Until there is a tacit dictatum to innovate and build locally to buy locally the status will remain. Every bit of brain power needed or even solutions will be outsourced to China.
> Forget the fact you want military hardware - start with the basics - alloys productions etc. Surely is that not the base for manufacturing.
> 
> 
> Complete b/s.... you have no clue on how baseless reply you are putting. I will not even dignify a response to your claims which are laughable.
> 
> 
> Bilal, you have hit the nail on the head bang on.
> 
> Dodo birds should be focusing on what they are paid for... be at the borders not being project managers, trying to run the show when it is out of their league. As you and I have stated, there needs to be a client/seller demarkation. This is not being done.
> 
> The challenge is the mindset... first putting dodo birds on a high pedestal and then letting them have fingers in all pots; this is grossly incoherent of any sound policy or process and the results are in front of all to see.



Please don’t lean on Bilal to defend your lack of information and knowledge. I appreciate what Bilal does but he is hardly an expert either. Picking bits and pieces from the internet and rehashing it and calling it an expert article does not make one an expert. He has very little knowledge of the reality on the ground. The problem with these forums is that it gets a lot of second generation emigrants who think that simply by the virtue of living in the west they know better and are quick to put down anything Pakistani.

Lets go back to the topic of private sector involvement in the defense production. Institutions like HIT and POF have significant sub contracting to civilian firms. This is because Pakistani auto component manufacturing industry including foundries, forges and machining are relatively developed and can undertake such subcontracting. A lot of components for the Alkhalid and T series tanks as well as the M series APCs are supplied by private sector vendors. In addition there are private sector firms supplying fuses, bomb and shell casings and other stuff to POF. Almost all vehicles including specialized vehicles are provided by the private sector.

The issue with PAC is that there are maybe one or two private sector firms which can produce high precision aviation grade components hence little or involvement of the private sector in the aviation sector. There is hardly any civilian aeronautical engineers in Pakistan.

Now let’s focus on public sector companies like People’s Steel Mill (makes specialized alloys including for tank barrel blanks), Heavy Mechanical Complex, Karachi Ship Yard, NRTC, Pakistan Machine Tools. They were either closed or working under capacity. They were revived by transferring them to the Strategic Projects Division (a subset of the nuclear program) and in case of Karachi ship yard to the Navy and all of these firm are now close to full capacity utilization and profitability.

I will add little interesting personal story here. Many years ago I was helping a friend run a small foundry making tractors parts. One day a naval officer showed up with the business end of a Torpedo in his Suzuki 800 car and asked us if we could replicate it. We tried but we couldn’t do it.

I am not saying that private sector should not be involved. I am all for it. What I am saying don’t be quick in passing judgment without understanding the history and the situation. Nobody is putting anyone on a pedestal but don’t make ill informed statements and take credit away where it is due.

There is no evidence that involvement of the military in industrial projects has impacted its operational preparedness specially the Air Force. infact it could be to the contrary if we compare it with India’s defense production model.

Also a lot of high tech design and development for the aviation sector is done by NESCOM and not by PAC.

Even if all the components are in place it will take multiple decades before a significant private sector aviation industry can be created in Pakistan. The Air Force is not discouraging it. In fact it has taken steps to encourage it.

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## JamD

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Exactly. The other issue is that with all that vertical integration, the armed forces are spending more on fixed -- and underutilized -- overhead. There's a cost to maintaining an HIT that rolls out only 50% of its al-Khalid output; there is a cost to maintaining those screw/bolt facilities at PAC; there's a cost for the Kinder Surprise shenanigans at POF; and so on. We are sinking a part of our defence budget in that overhead _instead _of procurement.
> 
> This is not an efficient -- or fair -- use of public funding. This is actually unjust to the Pakistani taxpayer who is not only footing the bill for defence, but now a spate of inefficiencies caused by generals who literally aren't doing their job (which is war on the battlefield, not on the board table).
> 
> The right approach is to shift that overhead to the private sector. This will do several things. First, it'll free overlay in the armed forces (which they can put into purchases). Second, the private sector will find a way to use that capacity -- either to efficiently supply the armed forces, or to drive exports (and bring ForEx).
> 
> Even in Turkey, the big state-owned entities (e.g., TAI, STM, etc) rely on the private sector to supply a lot of the key inputs. In turn, they spend more time on design and R&D, but actively work to transfer production (which is a costly overhead) to the private sector.


It's really a giant case of conflict of interest. Suppose I'm a person managing all military production SOEs in Pakistan. Now also assume I get to take x amount of money each year from the government in the name of national security, no questions asked. Why in God's name do I need to do anything to shake the status-quo or do things more efficiently? I literally have no reason to. The military makes the defence industry policy (or doesn't let the civilians make it, take your pick), and also completely manages the industry. Everything in the world happens because of incentives.


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## Bossman

JamD said:


> It's really a giant case of conflict of interest. Suppose I'm a person managing all military production SOEs in Pakistan. Now also assume I get to take x amount of money each year from the government in the name of national security, no questions asked. Why in God's name do I need to do anything to shake the status-quo or do things more efficiently? I literally have no reason to. The military makes the defence industry policy (or doesn't let the civilians make it, take your pick), and also completely manages the industry. Everything in the world happens because of incentives.


It doesn’t work this way. Military has a threat perception. A strategy is created to deal with the threat perception. Weapons are acquired in response to the strategy and tactics. The military provides characteristics and requirements of the weapons systems and the industry meets those requirements. There is very little innovation for sake of innovation. It’s too expensive and nobody will pay for failure. There are obviously technological breakthroughs that can change strategic balance and threat perception.


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## JamD

Bossman said:


> Please don’t lean on Bilal to defend your lack of information and knowledge. I appreciate what Bilal does but he is hardly an expert either. Picking bits and pieces from the internet and rehashing it and calling it an expert article does not make one an expert. He has very little knowledge of the reality on the ground. The problem with these forums is that it gets a lot of second generation emigrants who think that simply by the virtue of living in the west they know better and are quick to put down anything Pakistani.


I can't speak for Bilal but let me assure you I am not any kind of immigrant and have lived my entire life in Pakistan (not that I need to convince you of that).



Bossman said:


> The issue with PAC is that there are maybe one or two private sector firms which can produce high precision aviation grade components hence little or involvement of the private sector in the aviation sector.


Incorrect. PAC does not need to make screws. PAC does not need to do casting. PAC does not need to make rubber seals and gaskets. PAC does not need to make lights. I can go on for paragraphs like this. These can be very easily made by private sector.



Bossman said:


> There is hardly any civilian aeronautical engineers in Pakistan.


Super incorrect. I am one example (but again I don't need to convince you of anything). There are more civilian aeronautical engineers in Pakistan than can be employed. Otherwise, all my colleagues would have jobs. I PERSONALLY know around 300 civilian aerospace engineers. What do you think places like IST have been producing since 2002???



Bossman said:


> There is no evidence that involvement of the military in industrial projects has impacted its operational preparedness specially the Air Force. infact it could be to the contrary if we compare it with India’s defense production model.


Let's not compare to India. I can compare to Republic of Congo. Compare to Turkey and see what that analysis gets you.



Bossman said:


> Also a lot of high tech design and development for the aviation sector is done by NESCOM and not by PAC.


And your point is NESCOM buys from private sector? Or am I missing the point here?




Bossman said:


> Even if all the components are in place it will take multiple decades before a significant private sector aviation industry can be created in Pakistan.


Yes exactly. You need to start 30 years ago. We still haven't started.




Bossman said:


> The Air Force is not discouraging it. In fact it has taken steps to encourage it.


They say they are. A lot of people say a lot of things. But have they put in policies that materialize what they're saying? I haven't seen anything, have you?



Bossman said:


> It doesn’t work this way. Military has a threat perception. A strategy is created to deal with the threat perception. Weapons are acquired in response to the strategy and tactics. The military provides characteristics and requirements of the weapons systems and the industry meets those requirements. There is very little innovation for sake of innovation. It’s too expensive and nobody will pay for failure. There are obviously technological breakthroughs that can change strategic balance and threat perception.


If that is the argument then we shouldn't claim "has taken steps to encourage it". Then we should say we are not interested in creating an industry, end of story. Of course we've seen how foreign powers have had us by the gonads because we are forced to buy weapons from them, but apparently that doesn't threaten our national interests because "I buy shiny weapon now".

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## Bossman

JamD said:


> Incorrect. PAC does not need to make screws. PAC does not need to do casting. PAC does not need to make rubber seals and gaskets. PAC does not need to make lights. I can go on for paragraphs like this. These can be very easily made by private sector.



So why is the private sector not doing it? Are you saying the airforce is discouraging vendors? If HIT and POF can have vendors why not PAC?


----------



## JamD

Bossman said:


> So why is the private sector not doing it. Are you saying the airforce is discouraging vendors? If HIT and POF can have vendors why not PAC?





PAR 5 said:


> The problem with the military mindset regarding the private sector in Pakistan is that no one wants to invest in R&D required to develop modern weapons systems. Military mantra for the private sector is NO COST NO OBLIGATION BASIS which essentially means you do it at your cost while we think about buying it or not. This convoluted thinking by military planners is the single reason why the many major capable companies in Pakistan refrain from supporting the defence set ups. Anyone having any doubts regarding Pakistan private sector ability should read Usman Ansari’s latest article in Defence News (also posted on this forum). No country in the world can develop its private sector for defence production until such time the Military actually invests in the proposed programs.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Falcon26 said:


> I know you have Quwa but have you thought of writing an opinion piece on Dawn or other Pakistani newspapers making these arguments?


I'd rather stay away from Dawn. Dawn is fighting a dogmatic war. I just want to directly talk with our decision makers and change their minds.

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## Falcon26

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I'd rather stay away from Dawn. Dawn is fighting a dogmatic war. I just want to directly talk with our decision makers and change their minds.


 I agree. Dawn was just one example; not sure if they have competitors. It’s sad how it has transformed itself into such a pathetic paper.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Falcon26 said:


> I agree. Dawn was just one example; not sure if they have competitors. It’s sad how it has transformed itself into such a pathetic paper.


If I had the money, I'd start a direct competitor and drive them out of town. I've been dreaming about creating a Pakistani equivalent of the Wall Street Journal and Bloomberg. I can always start it out as a small blog, but that's not the right approach for a genuine national/international newspaper.

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## Yasser76

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> If I had the money, I'd start a direct competitor and drive them out of town. I've been dreaming about creating a Pakistani equivalent of the Wall Street Journal and Bloomberg. I can always start it out as a small blog, but that's not the right approach for a genuine national/international newspaper.



Bold move, you should follow your ambition. Online digital advertising model is difficult to get right, but Quwa seems to have the right "Freemium" model of some free content and advertising coupled with subscriptions to read in depth. You look across the border and a lot of clowns like Vishnu Som or Shiv Aroor make good money out of fooling ignorant Indians into thinking they know what they are talking about. 

My advice is carry on creating unique content and even offering free services to the likes of Al Jeezera/BBC/Janes then linking to your blog, get a Programmatic ad model going and eventually, over time, the advertising should start giving you enough revenue to expand. Of course all the above assumes you can spare time from your day job if you have one.

Keep up the good work

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## Falcon26

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> If I had the money, I'd start a direct competitor and drive them out of town. I've been dreaming about creating a Pakistani equivalent of the Wall Street Journal and Bloomberg. I can always start it out as a small blog, but that's not the right approach for a genuine national/international newspaper.


 
Great idea. What do you think of the Business Recorder? It seems like a Pakistani equivalent of the WSJ. 

Are you familiar with Uzair Younus? He has a good YouTube program that tackles aspects of Pakistan’s political economy. You should consider him as a way to go mainstream. I am a keen subscriber of your blog and I think the points you raise are timely, powerful and pertinent.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1279497033150332929

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Falcon26 said:


> Great idea. What do you think of the Business Recorder? It seems like a Pakistani equivalent of the WSJ.
> 
> Are you familiar with Uzair Younus? He has a good YouTube program that tackles aspects of Pakistan’s political economy. You should consider him as a way to go mainstream. I am a keen subscriber of your blog and I think the points you raise are timely, powerful and pertinent.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1279497033150332929


I like their stuff. That's what scares me. The good publishers are not given anywhere near the same 'support' as the likes of Dawn. Even a persona-non-gratta like Ayesha Siddiqua somehow gets more screen-time Lol.

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## Falcon26

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I like their stuff. That's what scares me. The good publishers are not given anywhere near the same 'support' as the likes of Dawn. Even a persona-non-gratta like Ayesha Siddiqua somehow gets more screen-time Lol.



Indeed. Dawn is able to market itself as a savior of Pakistan’s press and gets international coverage for this purposes. The other papers are small and serve niche audience.

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## denel

Bossman said:


> Please don’t lean on Bilal to defend your lack of information and knowledge. I appreciate what Bilal does but he is hardly an expert either. Picking bits and pieces from the internet and rehashing it and calling it an expert article does not make one an expert. He has very little knowledge of the reality on the ground. The problem with these forums is that it gets a lot of second generation emigrants who think that simply by the virtue of living in the west they know better and are quick to put down anything Pakistani.
> 
> Lets go back to the topic of private sector involvement in the defense production. Institutions like HIT and POF have significant sub contracting to civilian firms. This is because Pakistani auto component manufacturing industry including foundries, forges and machining are relatively developed and can undertake such subcontracting. A lot of components for the Alkhalid and T series tanks as well as the M series APCs are supplied by private sector vendors. In addition there are private sector firms supplying fuses, bomb and shell casings and other stuff to POF. Almost all vehicles including specialized vehicles are provided by the private sector.
> 
> The issue with PAC is that there are maybe one or two private sector firms which can produce high precision aviation grade components hence little or involvement of the private sector in the aviation sector. There is hardly any civilian aeronautical engineers in Pakistan.
> 
> Now let’s focus on public sector companies like People’s Steel Mill (makes specialized alloys including for tank barrel blanks), Heavy Mechanical Complex, Karachi Ship Yard, NRTC, Pakistan Machine Tools. They were either closed or working under capacity. They were revived by transferring them to the Strategic Projects Division (a subset of the nuclear program) and in case of Karachi ship yard to the Navy and all of these firm are now close to full capacity utilization and profitability.
> 
> I will add little interesting personal story here. Many years ago I was helping a friend run a small foundry making tractors parts. One day a naval officer showed up with the business end of a Torpedo in his Suzuki 800 car and asked us if we could replicate it. We tried but we couldn’t do it.
> 
> I am not saying that private sector should not be involved. I am all for it. What I am saying don’t be quick in passing judgment without understanding the history and the situation. Nobody is putting anyone on a pedestal but don’t make ill informed statements and take credit away where it is due.
> 
> There is no evidence that involvement of the military in industrial projects has impacted its operational preparedness specially the Air Force. infact it could be to the contrary if we compare it with India’s defense production model.
> 
> Also a lot of high tech design and development for the aviation sector is done by NESCOM and not by PAC.
> 
> Even if all the components are in place it will take multiple decades before a significant private sector aviation industry can be created in Pakistan. The Air Force is not discouraging it. In fact it has taken steps to encourage it.


Well, if 30 years of solid design and ground breaking works under my belt which are the foundation for many technology offspins that are in use world wide in military and civilian technologies - not to mention in your Mirages, H2/H4 etc. 2 PhDs and finishing a 3rd one - I guess my experience is nothing then .
Cheers.



JamD said:


> I can't speak for Bilal but let me assure you I am not any kind of immigrant and have lived my entire life in Pakistan (not that I need to convince you of that).
> 
> 
> Incorrect. PAC does not need to make screws. PAC does not need to do casting. PAC does not need to make rubber seals and gaskets. PAC does not need to make lights. I can go on for paragraphs like this. These can be very easily made by private sector.
> 
> 
> Super incorrect. I am one example (but again I don't need to convince you of anything). There are more civilian aeronautical engineers in Pakistan than can be employed. Otherwise, all my colleagues would have jobs. I PERSONALLY know around 300 civilian aerospace engineers. What do you think places like IST have been producing since 2002???
> 
> 
> Let's not compare to India. I can compare to Republic of Congo. Compare to Turkey and see what that analysis gets you.
> 
> 
> And your point is NESCOM buys from private sector? Or am I missing the point here?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes exactly. You need to start 30 years ago. We still haven't started.
> 
> 
> 
> They say they are. A lot of people say a lot of things. But have they put in policies that materialize what they're saying? I haven't seen anything, have you?
> 
> 
> If that is the argument then we shouldn't claim "has taken steps to encourage it". Then we should say we are not interested in creating an industry, end of story. Of course we've seen how foreign powers have had us by the gonads because we are forced to buy weapons from them, but apparently that doesn't threaten our national interests because "I buy shiny weapon now".


Well noted.

You had said about engineers coming to South Africa. I will tell you how your army brass has been stealing... yes stealing scholarships in field of geology and mining technologies - around 40+ were in Wits university. I was shocked to learn when i was there to visit another academic colleague. Turns out most are over 50yrs old. The scholarships purpose was to build and assist with the geology and mining knowledge base. So, my question was where are the youngsters from Pak universities? Instead we see these pot bellied folks with their wives living on stipend. My colleague said to me bluntly, this is what was posted by the dean of geology - the response from the consulate - 'there were no other better candidates'. You must be flipping joking with me.

If you do not believe it, go to Wits dept and see for yourself. Between attending lectures or claiming to be studying, most are using the consulate as a conduit to get items to be sold without incurring taxes.

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## Bossman

denel said:


> Well, if 30 years of solid design and ground breaking works under my belt which are the foundation for many technology offspins that are in use world wide in military and civilian technologies - not to mention in your Mirages, H2/H4 etc. 2 PhDs and finishing a 3rd one - I guess my experience is nothing then .
> Cheers.
> 
> .



First of all I don’t take anyone on face value on the internet. You might very well be the king of the Zulus. I have no way of knowing. Anybody can bullshit on the internet. In any case I was not questioning your personal qualifications but rather your knowledge of Pakistan.

I am not even sure about your story about senior military guys stealing scholarships specially for mining. I know how distribution of scholarships works in Pakistan through HEC. If you are what you say who you are you should emigrate or come and work for the PAF as there is no future for you in South Africa. BTW there is no Pakistani consulate in Johannesburg, where Wit U is situated.


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## denel

Bossman said:


> First of all I don’t take anyone on face value on the internet. You might very well be the king of the Zulus. I have no way of knowing. Anybody can bullshit on the internet. In any case I was not questioning your personal qualifications but rather your knowledge of Pakistan.
> 
> I am not even sure about your story about senior military guys stealing scholarships specially for mining. I know how distribution of scholarships works in Pakistan through HEC. If you are what you say who you are you should emigrate or come and work for the PAF as there is no future for you in South Africa. BTW there is no Pakistani consulate in Johannesburg, where Wit U is situated.



Well, i suggest you check them here at Wits U; there are around 20+ still hanging around. They live in flats around the university. My knowledge of Pak is limited to what i know from my late friend M.Amin who did two books on Pak. I did want to come and visit but your consulate is so stupid - same application lay there for several days; they made me come down 2 times but it remained where it was - sitting on the same place on the desk.

I was questioning why you kept of referring to PAF not PAC; my point was you needed to have client/supplier relationship and allow independent organisations out of the clutches of these dodo brainers. Just look at Egypt - complete rot across the entire country for decades - exactly the same scenario.

Well done... yes consulate is in Pretoria. Pretoria is around 60km from Wits.

If you would care to probe HEC and ask why those scholarships were stolen that will be very enlightening.

We have digressed enough from the thread, no further discussion.
Cheers


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## Bossman

Are you talking about Shahid Amin. He wrote books on Pakistan history and foreign affairs. Reading two books does not make you an expert. Secondly for a person with such high qualifications you have a lot of time to spend on a forum frequented by teenagers, retirees and wannabes. My point is very simple. The current situation where PAF have very high level of involvement in PAC is not ideal, however under Pakistan conditions what little development we have seen in the aviation industry, we would not have seen. Corporatization is the future and some work is already being done in this regard. Go read up on GIDS and the way it’s fronts some entities under NESCOM.

Secondly stop abusing them. It just makes you sound and look stupid. What is your personal issue with them? I know a number of South African engineers were working for the PAF. Maybe be they hired someone else and not you hence your frustration and bad mouthing.


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## Bossman

denel said:


> Well, i suggest you check them here at Wits U; there are around 20+ still hanging around. They live in flats around the university. My knowledge of Pak is limited to what i know from my late friend M.Amin who did two books on Pak. I did want to come and visit but your consulate is so stupid - same application lay there for several days; they made me come down 2 times but it remained where it was - sitting on the same place on the desk.
> 
> I was questioning why you kept of referring to PAF not PAC; my point was you needed to have client/supplier relationship and allow independent organisations out of the clutches of these dodo brainers. Just look at Egypt - complete rot across the entire country for decades - exactly the same scenario.
> 
> Well done... yes consulate is in Pretoria. Pretoria is around 60km from Wits.
> 
> If you would care to probe HEC and ask why those scholarships were stolen that will be very enlightening.
> 
> We have digressed enough from the thread, no further discussion.
> Cheers


I checked no record of South African scholarships for Pakistani students. BTW what is your area of research? I thinking you are BSing. 

Also if you need a good example of Defense production dominated by academics just look at India and at HAL and DRDO. A lot of innovative research but mostly failed projects with no takers. From Arjun to Insas to Tejas to Rustom.


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## Chak Bamu

Bossman said:


> First of all I don’t take anyone on face value on the internet. You might very well be the king of the Zulus. I have no way of knowing. Anybody can bullshit on the internet. In any case I was not questioning your personal qualifications but rather your knowledge of Pakistan.
> 
> I am not even sure about your story about senior military guys stealing scholarships specially for mining. I know how distribution of scholarships works in Pakistan through HEC. If you are what you say who you are you should emigrate or come and work for the PAF as there is no future for you in South Africa. BTW there is no Pakistani consulate in Johannesburg, where Wit U is situated.



Content is the sole determinant of quality & respect. I do not know why you are so badly triggered about @denel that you are prepared to abuse like this.

I've seen army majors & captains on overseas scholarships. Of the half dozen or so people (most being pot-bellyed) whom I saw pursuing PhDs, only Dr. Shoaib (a captain back then) did anything particularly worthwhile with his education. If it were up to me, I would bar any officer beyond Captain's rank from pursuing a PhD at Army & govt's expense. A Major would have to be exceptional to merit a PhD scholarship in a relevant field. No Colonels.

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## denel

Chak Bamu said:


> Content is the sole determinant of quality & respect. I do not know why you are so badly triggered about @denel that you are prepared to abuse like this.
> 
> I've seen army majors & captains on overseas scholarships. Of the half dozen or so people (most being pot-bellyed) whom I saw pursuing PhDs, only Dr. Shoaib (a captain back then) did anything particularly worthwhile with his education. If it were up to me, I would bar any officer beyond Captain's rank from pursuing a PhD at Army & govt's expense. A Major would have to be exceptional to merit a PhD scholarship in a relevant field. No Colonels.


I do not know either, this fellow is really off track.



Bossman said:


> I checked no record of South African scholarships for Pakistani students. BTW what is your area of research? I thinking you are BSing.
> 
> Also if you need a good example of Defense production dominated by academics just look at India and at HAL and DRDO. A lot of innovative research but mostly failed projects with no takers. From Arjun to Insas to Tejas to Rustom.


I said to you before I am not engaging your abuse and stupidity any further. thank you.

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## Trailer23

Not sure if anyone has seen this video. Don't really have the will to go through 63-pages to see if someone had uploaded in the past.

Anyways, here is a video of Team Sherdils and 360° Option is available if you want to see the rio chilling out.

This is the kinda footage i'd love to have of the F-16.





@Hodor @airomerix @Adam_Khan @Knuckles

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## Bossman

denel said:


> I said to you before I am not engaging your abuse and stupidity any further. thank you.



so you can abuse anyone but when I catch your lies you run away.


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## Trailer23



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## Incog_nito

JamD said:


> I've been following your conversation with denel and didnt feel the need to respond but this post has forced me to respond.
> 
> Firstly, PAF engineers played only a small part in the design of the JF-17. It is a jet primarily designed by CAC. PAF engineers gave design directions and steered some aspects of the design. All the nitty gritty was done by the Chinese. We manufacture large parts of it but we certainly did not design it ourselves. You overestimate our capability by a lot.
> 
> Secondly, the reason our private sector does not have any capacity is due to the very conscious effort to stifle its growth. You can read my posts on the forum or @Bilal Khan (Quwa)'s @PAR 5's for details of what I mean. There is horrendous redtape for any private sector defence company and all contracts go to China. Furthermore SOEs like PAC wont even let pvt sector make screws. Pvt sector all over the world in defence exists because governments fund them. They cant foot the bill for super expensive defence R&D based on the profits they dont make because our armed forces just go and buy Chinese.
> 
> Thirdly, South Africa's defense industry is WAHY more advanced than ours. I cant even believe I have to say this. Pakistan regularly sends engineers to South Africa for courses and training. We buy a lot of tech from them. So I would really take what South Africa has to say on this much more seriously.
> 
> Lastly, always be respectful. There is never a need for name calling.


true



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The private sector _can _support the armed forces, but it'll only happen when the armed forces decide to support the local economy. @JamD clearly brought up the example of simple stuff such as screws and bolts. If the armed forces can't even open up that -- even though the private sector can definitely supply it -- then forget anything more. There isn't going to be any growth in our industry, we'll instead scurry off to China or Europe and help their industries.
> 
> The right policy is to open up the supply of inputs to the private sector and _incentivize _them to expand their capacity and develop new products.
> 
> It starts with low-end stuff like nuts and bolts, but it gradually moves up to fuzes, polymers, composites, steel, and eventually to complete parts, structures, etc. It culminates in entire systems.
> 
> If they get the simple business, they'll build capacity to meet the need and, in turn, use the proceeds to grow and get better. That's how business works. It's been like this for thousands of years, but only fails when there's an unnatural element in the mix -- like gov't sanctioned monopolies, rent-seeking, etc.
> 
> Our problem is that we think it'd be a long process, and yes, we could be looking at 15-20 years. But that was true back in 2000, and back in 1980, and back in 1960, and even in 1947. In fact, in 1949, we got close to starting on the right path when the PAF was working with a tycoon from Hyderabad-Deccan to bring the P-80/F-80 production line (starting with assembly and moving to manufacturing) to Pakistan.
> 
> But that program failed because some babus decided it was a better idea to pick up the Supermarine Attacker from Britain. Herein lies the problem. We got babus who'll throw up excuses like "urgency" and what have you to burn precious hard currency on foreign goods without even as much as an offset deal (which could see at least some of that money return to our economy).
> 
> Today, we have a willing South Africa wanting to partner with us to co-develop tech -- and we know they've got expertise on rockets for AAM/SAM, turbojets for LACMs, etc -- yet we're ripping our hair out on how to improve on the SD-10. And to climb to the next step, we're willing to take on an even bigger expense for something we may not need, even though we can spend less and collaborate with others.



I had heard about military industries getting privatize, but then heard nothing again.

With all the reasons in place. The reality is that Chinese firms are coming up in Pakistan whether it's military or civilian sector. Even in real estate, Chinese are investing heavily in Pakistan; like in making apartment blocks in major cities where there were houses present in the past.

So, we all can expect that SAC, CAC, and other Chinese firms might land directly in Pakistan and will compete directly with PAC.


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## Trailer23

A new video edit on an aircraft I never thought i'd cover. But for some reason this music fits it fine.






@Horus @Dubious @AgNoStiC MuSliM @araz @airomerix @Arsalan @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @BHarwana @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Foxtrot Alpha @ghazi52 @Hodor @Irfan Baloch @Imran Khan @Jango @Knuckles @krash @LeGenD @Moonlight @Side-Winder @SQ8 @waz @dbc @Aamir Hussain @denel

@Adam_Khan @Ahmet Pasha @Akh1112 @aliyusuf @ARMalik @Angry Easterling @assasiner @Blacklight @crankthatskunk @Cookie Monster @Counter-Errorist @Dalit @DESERT FIGHTER @Dil Pakistan @Falcon26 @Flight of falcon @FuturePAF @graphican @GriffinsRule @Gryphon @GumNaam @Haris Ali2140 @HRK @Hakikat ve Hikmet @HawkEye27 @I S I @Khanivore @khansaheeb @khanasifm @Liquidmetal @loanranger @Maxpane @Mirage Battle Commander @Microsoft @mingle @Mrc @mshan44 @Muhammad Omar @NA71 @Nasr @notorious_eagle @Pakistani Fighter @PAKISTANFOREVER @PakShaheen79 @PanzerKiel @Path-Finder @PDFChamp @PWFI @Rafi @Reichsmarschall @Riz @Safriz @Shane @Signalian @Starlord @Stealth @StormBreaker @The Accountant @TheTallGuy @Tank131 @Thorough Pro @TOPGUN @Tps43 @TsAr @Trango Towers @undercover JIX @Verve @ziaulislam @Zulfiqar 
My



hommies @PakSword @Super Falcon @Sabretooth @PradoTLC @khail007 @War Thunder @ZedZeeshan and @Khafee

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## TOPGUN

Trailer23 said:


> A new video edit on an aircraft I never thought i'd cover. But for some reason this music fits it fine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Horus @Dubious @AgNoStiC MuSliM @araz @airomerix @Arsalan @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @BHarwana @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Foxtrot Alpha @ghazi52 @Hodor @Irfan Baloch @Imran Khan @Jango @Knuckles @krash @LeGenD @Moonlight @Side-Winder @SQ8 @waz @dbc @Aamir Hussain @denel
> 
> @Adam_Khan @Ahmet Pasha @Akh1112 @aliyusuf @ARMalik @Angry Easterling @assasiner @Blacklight @crankthatskunk @Cookie Monster @Counter-Errorist @Dalit @DESERT FIGHTER @Dil Pakistan @Falcon26 @Flight of falcon @FuturePAF @graphican @GriffinsRule @Gryphon @GumNaam @Haris Ali2140 @HRK @Hakikat ve Hikmet @HawkEye27 @I S I @Khanivore @khansaheeb @khanasifm @Liquidmetal @loanranger @Maxpane @Mirage Battle Commander @Microsoft @mingle @Mrc @mshan44 @Muhammad Omar @NA71 @Nasr @notorious_eagle @Pakistani Fighter @PAKISTANFOREVER @PakShaheen79 @PanzerKiel @Path-Finder @PDFChamp @PWFI @Rafi @Reichsmarschall @Riz @Safriz @Shane @Signalian @Starlord @Stealth @StormBreaker @The Accountant @TheTallGuy @Tank131 @Thorough Pro @TOPGUN @Tps43 @TsAr @Trango Towers @undercover JIX @Verve @ziaulislam @Zulfiqar
> My
> View attachment 649764
> hommies @PakSword @Super Falcon @Sabretooth @PradoTLC @khail007 @War Thunder @ZedZeeshan and @Khafee




Outstanding as always bro thanks for sharing

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## GriffinsRule

Its a simple and beautiful aircraft with a stellar safety record in PAF. Nice homage to the K-8 but needs more video footage of it to showcase its lines from the outside. Too much of the pilot facing gopro portions I felt.

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## Trailer23

GriffinsRule said:


> Its a simple and beautiful aircraft with a stellar safety record in PAF. Nice homage to the K-8 but needs more video footage of it to showcase its lines from the outside. Too much of the pilot facing gopro portions I felt.


Not enough footage available, bro.

To date only 3 vids relating to K-8.


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## TsAr

Trailer23 said:


> A new video edit on an aircraft I never thought i'd cover. But for some reason this music fits it fine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Horus @Dubious @AgNoStiC MuSliM @araz @airomerix @Arsalan @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @BHarwana @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Foxtrot Alpha @ghazi52 @Hodor @Irfan Baloch @Imran Khan @Jango @Knuckles @krash @LeGenD @Moonlight @Side-Winder @SQ8 @waz @dbc @Aamir Hussain @denel
> 
> @Adam_Khan @Ahmet Pasha @Akh1112 @aliyusuf @ARMalik @Angry Easterling @assasiner @Blacklight @crankthatskunk @Cookie Monster @Counter-Errorist @Dalit @DESERT FIGHTER @Dil Pakistan @Falcon26 @Flight of falcon @FuturePAF @graphican @GriffinsRule @Gryphon @GumNaam @Haris Ali2140 @HRK @Hakikat ve Hikmet @HawkEye27 @I S I @Khanivore @khansaheeb @khanasifm @Liquidmetal @loanranger @Maxpane @Mirage Battle Commander @Microsoft @mingle @Mrc @mshan44 @Muhammad Omar @NA71 @Nasr @notorious_eagle @Pakistani Fighter @PAKISTANFOREVER @PakShaheen79 @PanzerKiel @Path-Finder @PDFChamp @PWFI @Rafi @Reichsmarschall @Riz @Safriz @Shane @Signalian @Starlord @Stealth @StormBreaker @The Accountant @TheTallGuy @Tank131 @Thorough Pro @TOPGUN @Tps43 @TsAr @Trango Towers @undercover JIX @Verve @ziaulislam @Zulfiqar
> My
> View attachment 649764
> hommies @PakSword @Super Falcon @Sabretooth @PradoTLC @khail007 @War Thunder @ZedZeeshan and @Khafee


Behtreen

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## denel

GriffinsRule said:


> Its a simple and beautiful aircraft with a stellar safety record in PAF. Nice homage to the K-8 but needs more video footage of it to showcase its lines from the outside. Too much of the pilot facing gopro portions I felt.


As I noted before - K-8 is very much akin to MB-326/Impala. Only if the designers can improve it further like aeromachi did with MB339. It is very much doable as there is a lot of potential in the design left.

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## Bossman

denel said:


> As I noted before - K-8 is very much akin to MB-326/Impala. Only if the designers can improve it further like aeromachi did with MB339. It is very much doable as there is a lot of potential in the design left.


I will pass on your suggestions to Hongdu, which owns 75% of the project. For every K8 sold PAC gets 25% of the profit without raising a finger. Additional income from manufacturing sub-assemblies.


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## Trailer23

Bossman said:


> I will pass on your suggestions to Hongdu


Maybe we outta look in another direction and settle for the more advanced trailer like the *Hongdu JL-10* from China.

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## volatile

Trailer23 said:


> Maybe we outta look in another direction and settle for the more advanced trailer like the *Hongdu JL-10* from China.


Considering the love of Italian tech in PAF might be an option as well 





https://www.leonardocompany.com/en/products/m-346

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## khail007

Trailer23 said:


> A new video edit on an aircraft I never thought i'd cover. But for some reason this music fits it fine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Horus @Dubious @AgNoStiC MuSliM @araz @airomerix @Arsalan @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @BHarwana @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Foxtrot Alpha @ghazi52 @Hodor @Irfan Baloch @Imran Khan @Jango @Knuckles @krash @LeGenD @Moonlight @Side-Winder @SQ8 @waz @dbc @Aamir Hussain @denel
> 
> @Adam_Khan @Ahmet Pasha @Akh1112 @aliyusuf @ARMalik @Angry Easterling @assasiner @Blacklight @crankthatskunk @Cookie Monster @Counter-Errorist @Dalit @DESERT FIGHTER @Dil Pakistan @Falcon26 @Flight of falcon @FuturePAF @graphican @GriffinsRule @Gryphon @GumNaam @Haris Ali2140 @HRK @Hakikat ve Hikmet @HawkEye27 @I S I @Khanivore @khansaheeb @khanasifm @Liquidmetal @loanranger @Maxpane @Mirage Battle Commander @Microsoft @mingle @Mrc @mshan44 @Muhammad Omar @NA71 @Nasr @notorious_eagle @Pakistani Fighter @PAKISTANFOREVER @PakShaheen79 @PanzerKiel @Path-Finder @PDFChamp @PWFI @Rafi @Reichsmarschall @Riz @Safriz @Shane @Signalian @Starlord @Stealth @StormBreaker @The Accountant @TheTallGuy @Tank131 @Thorough Pro @TOPGUN @Tps43 @TsAr @Trango Towers @undercover JIX @Verve @ziaulislam @Zulfiqar
> My
> View attachment 649764
> hommies @PakSword @Super Falcon @Sabretooth @PradoTLC @khail007 @War Thunder @ZedZeeshan and @Khafee


Bro .... thanks for sharing such marvellous quality with us. Your skills are source of best videos on PAF.

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## Trailer23

volatile said:


> Considering the love of Italian tech in PAF might be an option as well
> View attachment 649849


Leonardo M346 - Fascinating Aircraft.

I've had the pleasure of being up close to it at last years Air Show, and she truly is a beauty.

I suppose you could compare the M346 with a *Alfa Romeo Giulia*. Small, Fast, Reliable and extremely expensive for its category.





PAF currently has 38 K-8's in its inventory.

If we were to compare the M346 with the L-15, this is what it'll look like - more or less.




​The price quoted for both may be at flyaway conditions. That being said, a fully loaded M346 could actually go up to the price of a JF-17 Block II. Whereas, the Chinese could bring the price down for a loaded L-15.

@Bilal Khan (Quwa)​@araz @airomerix @Hodor @Knuckles @Adam_Khan @GriffinsRule @Akh1112 @HRK @khanasifm @Mirage Battle Commander @mingle @NA71 @Pakistani Fighter @PanzerKiel @Path-Finder @Signalian @Stealth @StormBreaker @TheTallGuy @ziaulislam @PradoTLC

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## volatile

Trailer23 said:


> Leonardo M346 - Fascinating Aircraft.
> 
> I've had the pleasure of being up close to it at last years Air Show, and she truly is a beauty.
> 
> I suppose you could compare the M346 with a *Alfa Romeo Giulia*. Small, Fast, Reliable and extremely expensive for its category.
> 
> 
> 
> PAF currently has 38 K-8's in its inventory.
> 
> If we were to compare the M346 with the L-15, this is what it'll look like - more or less.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​The price quoted for both may be at flyaway conditions. That being said, a fully loaded M346 could actually go up to the price of a JF-17 Block II. Whereas, the Chinese could bring the price down for a loaded L-15.
> 
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa)​@araz @airomerix @Hodor @Knuckles @Adam_Khan @GriffinsRule @Akh1112 @HRK @khanasifm @Mirage Battle Commander @mingle @NA71 @Pakistani Fighter @PanzerKiel @Path-Finder @Signalian @Stealth @StormBreaker @TheTallGuy @ziaulislam @PradoTLC



possible option and we all know quality has its own merit SAR are Chinese as well and Italian defense industry saw jump of whooping 400/500 Million US $ in couple of years from Pakistan ,some thing from 200 odd million to 700 million $. Pakistan is lucrative market and please for the love of God stop comparing 2 of them ,This is scenario where we are saying PAF needs replacement of trainers


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## Trailer23

volatile said:


> ...and please for the love of God stop comparing 2 of them.


Look, its comparison of either these two or the *Yak-130* and/or the *KAI T-50*.

If one is looking for just the purpose of Trainers, than I don't see anything wrong with the *L-15*, however, if you're looking a lil' extra kick out of 'em..., then yeah - the *M346* is ideal.












> This is scenario where we are saying PAF needs replacement of trainers


Yeah, ofcourse this is only in the scenario if PAF was looking at replacements of Trainers. Highly unlikely, though.

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## Adam_Khan

Trailer23 said:


> Look, its comparison of either these two or the *Yak-130* and/or the *KAI T-50*.
> 
> If one is looking for just the purpose of Trainers, than I don't see anything wrong with the *L-15*, however, if you're looking a lil' extra kick out of 'em..., then yeah - the *M346* is ideal.
> 
> View attachment 650080
> View attachment 650082
> View attachment 650081​
> 
> Yeah, ofcourse this is only in the scenario if PAF was looking at replacements of Trainers. Highly unlikely, though.




Hell of a kick I agree but will cost more than a JF.17.


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## Trailer23

Adam_Khan said:


> Hell of a kick I agree but will cost more than a JF.17.


Price being kept aside, the elephant in the room is the obvious: the *Honeywell** F124 turbofan engines*.

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## GriffinsRule

Trailer23 said:


> Price being kept aside, the elephant in the room is the obvious: the *Honeywell** F124 turbofan engines*.


That's not a big deal. K-8s are flying with American engines right?

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## mingle

Trailer23 said:


> Leonardo M346 - Fascinating Aircraft.
> 
> I've had the pleasure of being up close to it at last years Air Show, and she truly is a beauty.
> 
> I suppose you could compare the M346 with a *Alfa Romeo Giulia*. Small, Fast, Reliable and extremely expensive for its category.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PAF currently has 38 K-8's in its inventory.
> 
> If we were to compare the M346 with the L-15, this is what it'll look like - more or less.
> 
> View attachment 650073
> ​The price quoted for both may be at flyaway conditions. That being said, a fully loaded M346 could actually go up to the price of a JF-17 Block II. Whereas, the Chinese could bring the price down for a loaded L-15.
> 
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa)​@araz @airomerix @Hodor @Knuckles @Adam_Khan @GriffinsRule @Akh1112 @HRK @khanasifm @Mirage Battle Commander @mingle @NA71 @Pakistani Fighter @PanzerKiel @Path-Finder @Signalian @Stealth @StormBreaker @TheTallGuy @ziaulislam @PradoTLC


Alpha Romeo


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## Trailer23

GriffinsRule said:


> That's not a big deal. K-8s are flying with American engines right?


That was then. Who's to know if they'd pull a fast one now.


mingle said:


> Alpha Romeo


www.alfaromeo.com

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## Adam_Khan

GriffinsRule said:


> That's not a big deal. K-8s are flying with American engines right?



Not sure if the other operators are also using the honeywell engine,it has had a superb safety record in Paf. Only one crash in almost 26 years service and that too was due to a bird hit.


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## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/Hongdu-K-8P-Karakorum/2819


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## Akh1112

Trailer23 said:


> That was then. Who's to know if they'd pull a fast one now.
> 
> www.alfaromeo.com




The Americans have no issue working with us directly, they more were punishing Turkey by withholding the export license for the T129's


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## jupiter2007

Trailer23 said:


> Look, its comparison of either these two or the *Yak-130* and/or the *KAI T-50*.
> 
> If one is looking for just the purpose of Trainers, than I don't see anything wrong with the *L-15*, however, if you're looking a lil' extra kick out of 'em..., then yeah - the *M346* is ideal.
> 
> View attachment 650080
> View attachment 650082
> View attachment 650081​
> 
> Yeah, ofcourse this is only in the scenario if PAF was looking at replacements of Trainers. Highly unlikely, though.







Trailer23 said:


> Look, its comparison of either these two or the *Yak-130* and/or the *KAI T-50*.
> 
> If one is looking for just the purpose of Trainers, than I don't see anything wrong with the *L-15*, however, if you're looking a lil' extra kick out of 'em..., then yeah - the *M346* is ideal.
> 
> View attachment 650080
> View attachment 650082
> View attachment 650081​
> 
> Yeah, ofcourse this is only in the scenario if PAF was looking at replacements of Trainers. Highly unlikely, though.



I thought Italy offered M346 to Pakistan. I would love PAF to have it but it cost as much as JF-17 block2.


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## Nomad40

Trailer23 said:


> Leonardo M346 - Fascinating Aircraft.
> 
> I've had the pleasure of being up close to it at last years Air Show, and she truly is a beauty.
> 
> I suppose you could compare the M346 with a *Alfa Romeo Giulia*. Small, Fast, Reliable and extremely expensive for its category.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PAF currently has 38 K-8's in its inventory.
> 
> If we were to compare the M346 with the L-15, this is what it'll look like - more or less.
> 
> View attachment 650073
> ​The price quoted for both may be at flyaway conditions. That being said, a fully loaded M346 could actually go up to the price of a JF-17 Block II. Whereas, the Chinese could bring the price down for a loaded L-15.
> 
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa)​@araz @airomerix @Hodor @Knuckles @Adam_Khan @GriffinsRule @Akh1112 @HRK @khanasifm @Mirage Battle Commander @mingle @NA71 @Pakistani Fighter @PanzerKiel @Path-Finder @Signalian @Stealth @StormBreaker @TheTallGuy @ziaulislam @PradoTLC


PAF can Easily upgrade FT-7pg to LIFT.

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## GriffinsRule

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> PAF can Easily upgrade FT-7pg to LIFT.


No it cant. And JF-17 is not an expensive fighter. LIFT aircraft may cost just as much, but thats not somehow a bad thing on its own.

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## Trailer23

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> PAF can Easily upgrade FT-7pg to LIFT.


Seriously.
At this point - how can you even put '_FT-7pg_' and '_upgrade_' in the same sentence?

[Jaan chutay uun manhoos jahazö say - jald-say-jald]
​I can't wait for them to be replaced by what..., *2025*[InshahAllah].


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## Akh1112

A JF-17 based LIFT could be an interesting idea, something like what the South Koreans did. It would be very cost effective and keep the JF-17 production line hot at times when additional aircraft may not be needed


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## denel

Akh1112 said:


> A JF-17 based LIFT could be an interesting idea, something like what the South Koreans did. It would be very cost effective and keep the JF-17 production line hot at times when additional aircraft may not be needed


Yes - a much lighter version and lower power. it will mean a new design again. L15/Yak-130/M-346 are good candidates but cost again becomes a factor.


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## Akh1112

denel said:


> Yes - a much lighter version and lower power. it will mean a new design again. L15/Yak-130/M-346 are good candidates but cost again becomes a factor.




Not necessarily, a stripped down JF-17 with a smaller/more basic radar for training alongside the current engine could be interesting since iirc the PAF wanted both radar and afterburner in their LIFT.

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## razgriz19

You don't need a degree to fix or fly airplanes. A degree doesn't equate good workmanship. Most Pakistanis are so sheltered, can't even do an oil change in their car. They're only book smart and that's about it. 

I used to fix airplanes, now i do inspection in big oil companies, and nuclear power plants. News flash - i don't have a degree!


Bossman said:


> They are also engineers they have to be. Many with advanced degrees including Phds.


----------



## Gomig-21

Trailer23 said:


>



The Egyptian one in all-white is the model used for training as well as reserved for wartime purposes if needed. 
But the Silver Stars aerobatic team has a patriotic design they use like the Pakistani ones and they fly a pretty fun routine. They even name their aircraft like #1 I believe is "Mustafa" and #2 is something like "Mahmoud" loool etc. It's all in fun and they do put on a pretty decent show.

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## Nomad40

Trailer23 said:


> Seriously.
> At this point - how can you even put '_FT-7pg_' and '_upgrade_' in the same sentence?
> 
> [Jaan chutay uun manhoos jahazö say - jald-say-jald]
> ​I can't wait for them to be replaced by what..., *2025*[InshahAllah].


They are good frames F-7p not as much, keep in mind PG's are 15 years younger than the F-7p it is all about maintenance and this is what the Chinese have done for their lift requirements.


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## Trailer23

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> They are good frames F-7p not as much, keep in mind PG's are 15 years younger than the F-7p it is all about maintenance and this is what the Chinese have done for their lift requirements.


Fine keep 'em 'round for as long you need, but don't be going about spending money to upgrade them, for God sake.

I don't care what people say 'bout 'em, but those F-7 are a death-trap and i'm more concerned for safety and life of our boys.


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## jamal18

razgriz19 said:


> You don't need a degree to fix or fly airplanes. A degree doesn't equate good workmanship. Most Pakistanis are so sheltered, can't even do an oil change in their car. They're only book smart and that's about it.
> 
> I used to fix airplanes, now i do inspection in big oil companies, and nuclear power plants. News flash - i don't have a degree!



Pakistanis are degree worshippers with often zero practical experience or ability. Apparently acquiring degrees solves everything!

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## Nomad40

Trailer23 said:


> Fine keep 'em 'round for as long you need, but don't be going about spending money to upgrade them, for God sake.
> 
> I don't care what people say 'bout 'em, but those F-7 are a death-trap and i'm more concerned for safety and life of our boys.


They are safe plane's our boys try to save an asset less valuable and that what end ups taking jewels away.


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## volatile

Reports in Pakistani media say that next big ticket purchase from Italy could be the M-346 lead-in fighter-trainer. An aircraft that can double up as an advanced jet trainer and a light fighter.
https://www.defenseworld.net/news/25717/Italian_Arms_Exports_to_Pakistan_Jump_four_folds_in_1_year

SO there was a genuine interest ,but still light weight category is already filled up


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## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/Hongdu-K-8P-Karakorum/2819

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## Bossman

12 are on order

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## syed_yusuf

volatile said:


> Reports in Pakistani media say that next big ticket purchase from Italy could be the M-346 lead-in fighter-trainer. An aircraft that can double up as an advanced jet trainer and a light fighter.
> https://www.defenseworld.net/news/25717/Italian_Arms_Exports_to_Pakistan_Jump_four_folds_in_1_year
> 
> SO there was a genuine interest ,but still light weight category is already filled up


what version of M346?


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## Scorpiooo

Why not water down version of JF17B adopted for future LIFT, it will save us from inductions of entirely new plateform , will be cost effective and also have additional margin in future export JF17B (water down version) as trainer

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## Akh1112

Scorpiooo said:


> Why not water down version of JF17B adopted for future LIFT, it will save us from inductions of entirely new plateform , will be cost effective and also have additional margin in future export JF17B (water down version) as trainer




It would also help lower the cost of the JF-17 due to commonality between parts, it would be a seriously good idea infact. You could also perhaps maybe have them convert to full fledged JF-17s during wartime to make up for attrition


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## Trailer23

Bossman said:


> 12 are on order


 eh, i'm sorry..., but when did so-called order take place.

As if getting F-16's and J-15's and C-130's and J-35's weren't enough. We now have the M-346 in the fold (too).

@ziaulislam @Bilal Khan (Quwa)


syed_yusuf said:


> what version of M346?


You mean which Variant.

The M-346FA (Fighter Attack) is the one on steroids.

Jut wanna add that though on Wikipedia is states that the M-346 costs USD $20 Million, however, as late as 2017, the M-346 was being pitched for the USAF T-X Program for USD $25 Million at flyaway cost...


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## Bossman

Trailer23 said:


> eh, i'm sorry..., but when did so-called order take place.
> 
> As if getting F-16's and J-15's and C-130's and J-35's weren't enough. We now have the M-346 in the fold (too).
> 
> @ziaulislam @Bilal Khan (Quwa)
> 
> You mean which Variant.
> 
> The M-346FA (Fighter Attack) is the one on steroids.
> 
> Jut wanna add that though on Wikipedia is states that the M-346 costs USD $20 Million, however, as late as 2017, the M-346 was being pitched for the USAF T-X Program for USD $25 Million at flyaway cost...


This was similar to the Saab contract I.e. order from an unknown buyer. Google it.

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## Trailer23

Bossman said:


> order from an unknown buyer.


I've known 'bout the '_unknown buyer_' since last year, but that does not spell: Pakistan

It could, but than again, it could be someone else.

And what exactly are 12 M-346 supposed to do for the PAF?

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## denel

Trailer23 said:


> I've known 'bout the '_unknown buyer_' since last year, but that does not spell: Pakistan
> 
> It could, but than again, it could be someone else.
> 
> And what exactly are 12 M-346 supposed to do for the PAF?


I doubt it; between K8 and the surplus of hand me downs T37s. if M3/5 saga is the way, i do not believe there will be anything there. The best option is a stripped me down version of JF17b.


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## Bossman

Trailer23 said:


> I've known 'bout the '_unknown buyer_' since last year, but that does not spell: Pakistan
> 
> It could, but than again, it could be someone else.
> 
> And what exactly are 12 M-346 supposed to do for the PAF?


LIFT

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## Trailer23

All M-346 discussion shifted to: *New fighter for PAF Doctrine?
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/new-fighter-for-paf-doctrine.657721/page-98*

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## mingle

Trailer23 said:


> All M-346 discussion shifted to: *New fighter for PAF Doctrine?
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/new-fighter-for-paf-doctrine.657721/page-98*


It's tie between L15 and M346 let's see



Bossman said:


> LIFT


Whole one Sqdn


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## Bossman

mingle said:


> It's tie between L15 and M346 let's see
> 
> 
> Whole one Sqdn


Done deal. Slow progression. Once you create the support infrastructure, more will come. The Italian generals are happy!

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## mingle

Bossman said:


> Done deal. Slow progression. Once you create the support infrastructure, more will come. The Italian generals are happy!


Leonardo opened office in Pak make sence only if PAF give them reasonable business

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## fatman17

Pakistan military business with Leonardo is on the rise soon Italy will be our biggest European supplier followed by Ukraine.


mingle said:


> Leonardo opened office in Pak make sence only if PAF give them reasonable business

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## Viper27

Wasn't the JF17B supposed to cover the LIFT requirement?


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## Bossman

Viper27 said:


> Wasn't the JF17B supposed to cover the LIFT requirement?


Fighter conversion.


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## Metal 0-1

Trailer23 said:


> Not sure if anyone has seen this video. Don't really have the will to go through 63-pages to see if someone had uploaded in the past.
> 
> Anyways, here is a video of Team Sherdils and 360° Option is available if you want to see the rio chilling out.
> 
> This is the kinda footage i'd love to have of the F-16.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Hodor @airomerix @Adam_Khan @Knuckles



Kinda Weird to see, WSO control stick moving around between his legs..


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## Saifullah

Trailer23 said:


> Leonardo M346 - Fascinating Aircraft.
> 
> I've had the pleasure of being up close to it at last years Air Show, and she truly is a beauty.
> 
> I suppose you could compare the M346 with a *Alfa Romeo Giulia*. Small, Fast, Reliable and extremely expensive for its category.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​


*Alfa Romeo *and *Reliable *in one sentence it's funny to see that.​


Trailer23 said:


> If we were to compare the M346 with the L-15, this is what it'll look like - more or less.
> 
> View attachment 650073
> ​The price quoted for both may be at flyaway conditions. That being said, a fully loaded M346 could actually go up to the price of a JF-17 Block II. Whereas, the Chinese could bring the price down for a loaded L-15.


M346 length is wrong in the comparison table.
L-15 seems a better aircraft.


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## Trailer23

Saifullah said:


> *Alfa Romeo *and *Reliable *in one sentence it's funny to see that.​


​They are - if you can maintain 'em. Its Italian, so it ain't cheap.


Saifullah said:


> L-15 seems a better aircraft.


If you're talking about cost, then yeah, its a better fit - for Training purpose.

But in terms of comparing the two, the M-346 will have the L-15 for lunch.

With the exception of the new *BOEING T-7 Red Hawk* (formally Boeing T-X), the best Trainer in the market *IS* the *M-346*.

...and that list includes:
LM/KAI T-50 Golden Eagle
Yakovlev Yak-130

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## GriffinsRule

Trailer23 said:


> They are - if you can maintain 'em. Its Italian, so it ain't cheap.
> 
> If you're talking about cost, then yeah, its a better fit - for Training purpose.
> 
> But in terms of comparing the two, the M-346 will have the L-15 for lunch.
> 
> With the exception of the new *BOEING T-7 Red Hawk* (formally Boeing T-X), the best Trainer in the market *IS* the *M-346*.
> 
> ...and that list includes:
> LM/KAI T-50 Golden Eagle
> Yakovlev Yak-130


Agreed. There is a very nice article on the M-346 in the Aviation News this month. Being able to simulate virtual enemy aircraft while in the air ... pretty nifty stuff. I think for the next gen, a LIFT like that would be an amazing choice.


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## ghazi52



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## Bossman

GriffinsRule said:


> Agreed. There is a very nice article on the M-346 in the Aviation News this month. Being able to simulate virtual enemy aircraft while in the air ... pretty nifty stuff. I think for the next gen, a LIFT like that would be an amazing choice.


K8 has the same capability and has had it for 10 years. It’s an electronic pod. I don’t think PAF got it.


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## GriffinsRule

Bossman said:


> K8 has the same capability and has had it for 10 years. It’s an electronic pod. I don’t think PAF got it.


K-8 is nowhere near as capable as the M-346. Its a good aircraft in its own role, which is basic/intermediate training. 
As for the capability, I don't think K-8s have anything of the sort I mentioned, unless you have any sources you can point to that shows K-8 having this capability. What is this pod called?


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## Bossman

GriffinsRule said:


> K-8 is nowhere near as capable as the M-346. Its a good aircraft in its own role, which is basic/intermediate training.
> As for the capability, I don't think K-8s have anything of the sort I mentioned, unless you have any sources you can point to that shows K-8 having this capability. What is this pod called?


I am not comparing K8 with M-346. What I am saying is the the Chinese also have a pod for K8, which allows it to simulate other aircraft. It came out about ten years ago. Let me look for it and I will post it.


*K-8V *
An 'integrated flight test simulation aircraft' (IFTSA), equipped with an advanced flight control computer and analogue fly-by-wire (FBW) system which can mimic the aerodynamic characteristics and flight profile of other aircraft. The pod looks like the smoke generator pods used by Sherdils.

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## GriffinsRule

Bossman said:


> I am not comparing K8 with M-346. What I am saying is the the Chinese also have a pod for K8, which allows it to simulate other aircraft. It came out about ten years ago. Let me look for it and I will post it.
> 
> 
> *K-8V *
> An 'integrated flight test simulation aircraft' (IFTSA), equipped with an advanced flight control computer and analogue fly-by-wire (FBW) system which can mimic the aerodynamic characteristics and flight profile of other aircraft. The pod looks like the smoke generator pods used by Sherdils.



Ah I got you. Its not what I was talking about in reference to the article. The M-346 virtually simulates other aircraft opponents for the pilot flying the trainer. As the article mentions it, a 3-ship of trainers take off and they see a 4th aircraft in the air, a simulated Mig-29 for eg.

Will post it when I get time. I didnt finish reading it yet myself =)


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## Bossman

GriffinsRule said:


> Ah I got you. Its not what I was talking about in reference to the article. The M-346 virtually simulates other aircraft opponents for the pilot flying the trainer. As the article mentions it, a 3-ship of trainers take off and they see a 4th aircraft in the air, a simulated Mig-29 for eg.
> 
> Will post it when I get time. I didnt finish reading it yet myself =)


Spoofing?


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## ghazi52



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## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/Sherdils-Aerobatic-Team/2903

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## ghazi52




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## ghazi52




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## ghazi52




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## Windjammer




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## ghazi52




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## Marker

What is the PAF current inventory of K-8s and K-8Ps?
Wikipedia without quoting the source reveals that PAF possess 92 K-8s and K-8Ps and with a note that 32 K-8Ps were delivered in 2020.
According to SIPRI data base 12 K-8s and 27 K-8Ps were delivered to PAF.






Why PAF is inducting so many K-8Ps?


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## GriffinsRule

Marker said:


> What is the PAF current inventory of K-8s and K-8Ps?
> Wikipedia without quoting the source reveals that PAF possess 92 K-8s and K-8Ps and with a note that 32 K-8Ps were delivered in 2020.
> According to SIPRI data base 12 K-8s and 27 K-8Ps were delivered to PAF.
> 
> View attachment 666460
> 
> 
> Why PAF is inducting so many K-8Ps?


Wikipedia is wrong


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## Marker

GriffinsRule said:


> Wikipedia is wrong


Than SIPRI Arms Transfer Data is correct.
PAF is currently holding 12 K-8s and 26 K-8Ps (one crashed due to bird hit).

By the way, SIPRI data does show transaction of K-8 engines (TFE731-2A) supplied by US firm Honeywell.
SIPRI data for China shows that US delivered 6 engines only.


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## Incog_nito

When PAF will be acquiring new trainers from Italy as the Leonardo company already has opened its office in Pakistan. This means they will going to develop an aircraft maintenance facility of aircraft and UAVs locally.


50 M-345
50 M-346
I'm sure it will going to give a big boost to PAF CCS.

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## blinder

Marker said:


> Than SIPRI Arms Transfer Data is correct.
> PAF is currently holding 12 K-8s and 26 K-8Ps (one crashed due to bird hit).


Isn't there a K-8 preserved in 'celebrity row' inside PAC Kamra, southern part of the complex?


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## Bossman

Marker said:


> Than SIPRI Arms Transfer Data is correct.
> PAF is currently holding 12 K-8s and 26 K-8Ps (one crashed due to bird hit).
> 
> By the way, SIPRI data does show transaction of K-8 engines (TFE731-2A) supplied by US firm Honeywell.
> SIPRI data for China shows that US delivered 6 engines only.


The number is higher

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## denel

Incog_nito said:


> When PAF will be acquiring new trainers from Italy as the Leonardo company already has opened its office in Pakistan. This means they will going to develop an aircraft maintenance facility of aircraft and UAVs locally.
> 
> 
> 50 M-345
> 50 M-346
> I'm sure it will going to give a big boost to PAF CCS.


not happening for now. be careful... wdf may put it as a 'breaking news'.

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## Marker

Bossman said:


> The number is higher


6 K-8s with Allied Signal TFE731-2A turbofan engine were received in 1994, 6 more K-8s were received in 2003.

27 K-8Ps were received in 2010 and another 12 in 2011.

In short a total of 51 K-8s and K-8Ps were received. However, the same source states that PAF hold 60 K-8s and K-8Ps.

Source: http://chinese-military-aviation.blogspot.com/p/trainers.html

Where as Wikipedia states that their are 92 K-8s and K-8Ps, interestingly 32 were delivered in 2020.

According to SIPRI arms transfer database, 12 K-8s and 27 K-8Ps were delivered to PAF.

Therefore K-8 and K-8Ps strength in PAF is in between 38 to 92.

If K-8s and K-8Ps strength is 92, then it means that either PAF is grounding all T-37 fleet or number of K-8Ps are assigned somewhere else.


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## syed_yusuf

PAF operates 60 k8 all variants

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## GriffinsRule

syed_yusuf said:


> PAF operates 60 k8 all variants


I think PAF only have 39 K-8s as I have not seen picture of any aircraft with a serial number past 38. But who knows.


Marker said:


> 6 K-8s with Allied Signal TFE731-2A turbofan engine were received in 1994, 6 more K-8s were received in 2003.
> 
> 27 K-8Ps were received in 2010 and another 12 in 2011.
> 
> In short a total of 51 K-8s and K-8Ps were received. However, the same source states that PAF hold 60 K-8s and K-8Ps.
> 
> Source: http://chinese-military-aviation.blogspot.com/p/trainers.html
> 
> Where as Wikipedia states that their are 92 K-8s and K-8Ps, interestingly 32 were delivered in 2020.
> 
> According to SIPRI arms transfer database, 12 K-8s and 27 K-8Ps were delivered to PAF.
> 
> Therefore K-8 and K-8Ps strength in PAF is in between 38 to 92.
> 
> If K-8s and K-8Ps strength is 92, then it means that either PAF is grounding all T-37 fleet or number of K-8Ps are assigned somewhere else.


6 in 1994, 6 in 2003, 8 in 2006, 8 in 2008 and finally 12 in 2010.


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## Marker

syed_yusuf said:


> PAF operates 60 k8 all variants


This means Wikipedia is stating wrongly about delivery of 32 K-8Ps in 2020.


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## Bossman

Marker said:


> 6 K-8s with Allied Signal TFE731-2A turbofan engine were received in 1994, 6 more K-8s were received in 2003.
> 
> 27 K-8Ps were received in 2010 and another 12 in 2011.
> 
> In short a total of 51 K-8s and K-8Ps were received. However, the same source states that PAF hold 60 K-8s and K-8Ps.
> 
> Source: http://chinese-military-aviation.blogspot.com/p/trainers.html
> 
> Where as Wikipedia states that their are 92 K-8s and K-8Ps, interestingly 32 were delivered in 2020.
> 
> According to SIPRI arms transfer database, 12 K-8s and 27 K-8Ps were delivered to PAF.
> 
> Therefore K-8 and K-8Ps strength in PAF is in between 38 to 92.
> 
> If K-8s and K-8Ps strength is 92, then it means that either PAF is grounding all T-37 fleet or number of K-8Ps are assigned somewhere else.


K8Ps are mostly used for advanced jet training at Mianwali where it replaced the FT5s. In addition it is used for basic training along with T37s at Risalpur. K8s has a very broad performance envelope and can be used for anything from Basic to Advanced training. All K8 are being upgraded to K8P with glass cockpits.

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## blinder

GriffinsRule said:


> I think PAF only have 39 K-8s as I have not seen picture of any aircraft with a serial number past 38. But who knows.
> 
> 6 in 1994, 6 in 2003, 8 in 2006, 8 in 2008 and finally 12 in 2010.



Indeed 39, but according to HAIC last delivery in 2010 was 11 aircraft handed over on 27 October 2010. And no, I do not have that news item anymore

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## GriffinsRule

blinder said:


> Indeed 39, but according to HAIC last delivery in 2010 was 11 aircraft handed over on 27 October 2010. And no, I do not have that news item anymore


You are right, 11 vs 12 in 2010. That's what I had but thought it was strange to have an odd number ordered. But we definitely don't have more than 40 as other sources are indicating


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## ZedZeeshan

I am in Love with K 8


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## denel

Venezuela


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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52



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## Incog_nito

Can K-8 be complemented with some 50 Aermacchi M-345 to assist PAF in training?

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## Windjammer



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## Trango Towers

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 718855


Much better colour scheme


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## Bossman

Incog_nito said:


> Can K-8 be complemented with some 50 Aermacchi M-345 to assist PAF in training?
> 
> View attachment 717948
> 
> 
> View attachment 717949
> 
> 
> View attachment 717950
> 
> 
> View attachment 717951


I have arranged a meeting for you at the Air Head Quarters. Please prepare a PowerPoint presentation with all your proposals supported by detailed supporting analysis in triplicate as well as in a memory stick. Dress will be business formal. Someone from the CAS office will contact you soon. Good luck!

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## ghazi52



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## Incog_nito

Bossman said:


> I have arranged a meeting for you at the Air Head Quarters. Please prepare a PowerPoint presentation with all your proposals supported by detailed supporting analysis in triplicate as well as in a memory stick. Dress will be business formal. Someone from the CAS office will contact you soon. Good luck!



Lolz. Nice one.


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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52



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## denel

Angola receives final K-8W jets from China - defenceWeb


The Angolan Air Force has received the last six of 12 K-8W jets from China, which delivered the aircraft for pilot training. The Air Force officially received the second batch on 14 December at Catumbela, official press agency Angop reported. The aircraft were acquired from China’s CATIC via...




www.defenceweb.co.za





Congrats,... another client joins K8 user base.

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## ghazi52

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=776520816335264

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## ghazi52

PAF Sherdils - Photo by Talha Maqsood

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## ghazi52




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## ghazi52

Sherdil & Clouds!

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## Windjammer

Smoke Check by Sherdils 7,8 and 9.

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## ghazi52

First K-8 Batch Of Pilots With Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto.

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## Advocate Pakistan

K-8 Engines moving today in Isloo.

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## denel

ghazi52 said:


> View attachment 735695
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First K-8 Batch Of Pilots With Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto.


friend, suggestion - let us get a set of photos of all K8s across the globe into a small album. Angola being the latest.

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## ghazi52

*Air Force of Zimbabwe* 









*Venezuelan Air Force* 










*Bolivian Air Force* 









*People’s Liberation Army Air Force* 








*Bangladesh Air Force*









Egyptian Air Force 









Sudan Air Force
/




denel said:


> friend, suggestion - let us get a set of photos of all K8s across the globe into a small album. Angola being the latest.

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## ghazi52

Angolan Air Force

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## Scorpiooo

Why PAF or PAA is not using or adding new K8p in light attack role ..

They can be effective and economic in this role specially againt ground targets


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## syed_yusuf

There was a talk of q8 or A8. Not sure why it was not followed. For sure in strike role it needs a better engine


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## Scorpiooo

syed_yusuf said:


> There was a talk of q8 or A8. Not sure why it was not followed. For sure in strike role it needs a better engine


Can you share in detail


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## ghazi52



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## khanasifm

ghazi52 said:


> View attachment 736545
> 
> 
> 
> Angolan Air Force



All these countries are target [emoji457] for jf-17 as well


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## ghazi52

Sherdils painting the sky

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

When our daughters will lead the squadrons!

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## ghazi52

*Syed Zohaib Zaidi Photography .*
5htSponsolcregld · 

Karakoram Eight of Team Sherdils.

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## khanasifm

?? I think this is not correct ?? Naf has k8 ??

This has entailed delivery of MFI-17 Super Mushak basic trainers, Karakorum K-8 intermediate jet trainers (which Pakistan Aeronautical Complex equipped to fire unguided rockets), and technical help to keep the Nigerian fleet of F-7NI Fishcan fighters operational.










Pakistan delivers JF-17 fighters to Nigerian Air Force


This marks the latest development in the Pakistan Air Force’s involvement in the Nigerian Air Force’s modernization program.




www.defensenews.com


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## PDF

Seen alot of Pilatus PC-21 trainer aircrafts with Qatar and UAE AF. Haven't heard about them much. How do thay compare with K8s or Mushaks?


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## ghazi52



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## maverick1977

khanasifm said:


> ?? I think this is not correct ?? Naf has k8 ??
> 
> This has entailed delivery of MFI-17 Super Mushak basic trainers, Karakorum K-8 intermediate jet trainers (which Pakistan Aeronautical Complex equipped to fire unguided rockets), and technical help to keep the Nigerian fleet of F-7NI Fishcan fighters operational.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan delivers JF-17 fighters to Nigerian Air Force
> 
> 
> This marks the latest development in the Pakistan Air Force’s involvement in the Nigerian Air Force’s modernization program.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.defensenews.com




I think K8 can fire sidewinders AIM-9P or AIM9L. along with unguided rockets. Citation needed.


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## khanasifm

maverick1977 said:


> I think K8 can fire sidewinders AIM-9P or AIM9L. along with unguided rockets. Citation needed.



I was questioning Nigerian had k8 part [emoji6]

Nigerian never bought k8 they already have L-29 but possible in future when their trainer need replacement


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## Bilal9

PDF said:


> Seen alot of Pilatus PC-21 trainer aircrafts with Qatar and UAE AF. Haven't heard about them much. How do thay compare with K8s or Mushaks?



Brother - PC-21 is a later modernized version of the Swiss turboprop advanced trainers PC-7 and PC-9.

PC-21 can satisfy basic and advanced flight training, full mission management training, and embedded simulation/emulation.

The aircraft possesses a powerful, flexible, and cost-effective integrated training system; providing sufficient ease of use for inexperienced pilots while posing greater challenge to advanced pilots.

It is general consensus, that while the PC-21 is a turboprop powered by the well-proven PWC Canada PT-6A (same as that used on many small utility turboprop aircraft and airliners including the ubiquitous twin otter), it possesses superior aerodynamic performance when compared with any other turboprop trainer on the market (including Musshaq which has a non-turboprop engine) and even older jet trainers. Look at the efficient planform.











In fact in the top speed arena, the PC-21 can reach 426 MPH (Never exceed speed). Which is not too shabby compared to a jet trainer like the K-8 (500 MPH), which is much more heavier and in a pinch, can be used for COIN and airfield defense duties. The Myanmarese have used the K-8 as COIN aircraft against insurgents in their country.

The PC-21 is a pure trainer (and an excellent one), but cannot be used to carry things like unguided rockets, which the K-8 can. Both aircraft have advanced glass cockpits, EFIS and zero/zero ejection seats in tandem seating pattern.

These are the Bangladesh K-8W's in airshow paint.






If you want a turboprop trainer with Missile capability, the A-29 Super Tucano (EMBRAER) from Brazil is a good choice as it was tried out for USAF OA-X project (USAF light attack experiment). It has four hard points, the inner ones can be plumbed for light fuel tanks and outer ones can carry guided bombs or sidewinders (or Mavericks, Hellfires, JAGM etc.).











Additionally HMG's in wing (200 rounds for the FN Herstal M3P 12.7 mm (.50 in) machine gun, firing rate of up to 1,100 rounds per minute). 





Super Tucanos can also carry a centre-line tank for 400 litres (88 imp gal; 110 US gal) of fuel





Afghan Air Force A-29 seen with HMG's in wing and add'l side armor plating to protect engine and pilots

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## Ali_Baba

Bilal9 said:


> Brother - PC-21 is a later modernized version of the Swiss turboprop advanced trainers PC-7 and PC-9.
> 
> PC-21 can satisfy basic and advanced flight training, full mission management training, and embedded simulation/emulation.
> 
> The aircraft possesses a powerful, flexible, and cost-effective integrated training system; providing sufficient ease of use for inexperienced pilots while posing greater challenge to advanced pilots.
> 
> It is general consensus, that while the PC-21 is a turboprop powered by the well-proven PWC Canada PT-6A, it possesses superior aerodynamic performance when compared with any other turboprop trainer on the market (including Musshaq which has a non-turboprop engine) and even older jet trainers. Look at the efficient planform.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In fact in the top speed arena, the PC-21 can reach 426 MPH (Never exceed speed). Which is not too shabby compared to a jet trainer like the K-8 (500 MPH), which is much more heavier and in a pinch, can be used for COIN and airfield defense duties. The Myanmarese have used the K-8 as COIN aircraft against insurgents in their country.
> 
> The PC-21 is a pure trainer (and an excellent one), but cannot be used to carry things like unguided rockets, which the K-8 can. Both aircraft have advanced glass cockpits, EFIS and zero/zero ejection seats in tandem seating pattern.
> 
> These are the Bangladesh K-8W's in airshow paint.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you want a turboprop trainer with Missile capability, the A-29 Super Tucano (EMBRAER) from Brazil is a good choice as it was tried out for USAF OA-X project (USAF light attack experiment). It has four hard points, the inner ones can be plumbed for light fuel tanks and outer ones can carry guided bombs or sidewinders.



For some reason - the paint job on the BAF K8s looks like it they 10x better(in quality) than any paint job i have seen on a PAF K8.

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## Scorpiooo

What is the unit cost of k8


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## Bilal9

Ali_Baba said:


> For some reason - the paint job on the BAF K8s looks like it they 10x better(in quality) than any paint job i have seen on a PAF K8.



Thanks brother.

I don't know who did the paint job. Maybe BAF themselves, or - a contractor.


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## Raider 21



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## denel

Bilal9 said:


> Brother - PC-21 is a later modernized version of the Swiss turboprop advanced trainers PC-7 and PC-9.
> 
> PC-21 can satisfy basic and advanced flight training, full mission management training, and embedded simulation/emulation.
> 
> The aircraft possesses a powerful, flexible, and cost-effective integrated training system; providing sufficient ease of use for inexperienced pilots while posing greater challenge to advanced pilots.
> 
> It is general consensus, that while the PC-21 is a turboprop powered by the well-proven PWC Canada PT-6A (same as that used on many small utility turboprop aircraft and airliners including the ubiquitous twin otter), it possesses superior aerodynamic performance when compared with any other turboprop trainer on the market (including Musshaq which has a non-turboprop engine) and even older jet trainers. Look at the efficient planform.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In fact in the top speed arena, the PC-21 can reach 426 MPH (Never exceed speed). Which is not too shabby compared to a jet trainer like the K-8 (500 MPH), which is much more heavier and in a pinch, can be used for COIN and airfield defense duties. The Myanmarese have used the K-8 as COIN aircraft against insurgents in their country.
> 
> The PC-21 is a pure trainer (and an excellent one), but cannot be used to carry things like unguided rockets, which the K-8 can. Both aircraft have advanced glass cockpits, EFIS and zero/zero ejection seats in tandem seating pattern.
> 
> These are the Bangladesh K-8W's in airshow paint.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you want a turboprop trainer with Missile capability, the A-29 Super Tucano (EMBRAER) from Brazil is a good choice as it was tried out for USAF OA-X project (USAF light attack experiment). It has four hard points, the inner ones can be plumbed for light fuel tanks and outer ones can carry guided bombs or sidewinders (or Mavericks, Hellfires, JAGM etc.).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Additionally HMG's in wing (200 rounds for the FN Herstal M3P 12.7 mm (.50 in) machine gun, firing rate of up to 1,100 rounds per minute).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Super Tucanos can also carry a centre-line tank for 400 litres (88 imp gal; 110 US gal) of fuel
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Afghan Air Force A-29 seen with HMG's in wing and add'l side armor plating to protect engine and pilots


Embraer is the leader in this space. Practically similar to K8 in performance


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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52

DGPR (AIR FORCE)

@DGPR_PAF

Inspired by RAF Aerobatics Team “The Red Pelicans”, SL Bahar-ul-Haq originally conceived idea of Sherdils. The first team leader was none other than Wg Cdr Imtiaz A Bhatti, (SJ) - the legendary War hero of 1965; while FL Aamer Sharieff, FL Rahim and FL Niaz were his form members.

With a legacy of five decades of startling Aerial Displays, the esteemed “Sherdils” Formation Aerobatics Team of PAF spread its wings for the first time, once it flew as a Four-Ship Formation of T-37 aircraft on 17 August, 1972.












The First Four-ship K-8 formation displayed its thrilling performance on 10 September, 2009. Maturing to Six-ship within a year, Sherdils continued to amuse the domestic as well as international audience bearing pride for Pakistan Air Force.







DGPR (AIR FORCE)

@DGPR_PAF



Team work and dedication, supplemented with improvisation, resulted in evolution of “Sherdils” into today’s modern Nine-ship aerobatics team.


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## ghazi52

Today in History - 17 August

With a legacy of five decades of startling Aerial Displays, the esteemed “Sherdils” Formation Aerobatics Team of PAF spread its wings for the first time, once it flew as a Four-Ship Formation of T-37 aircraft on 17 August, 1972. Inspired by Royal Air Force Aerobatics Team “The Red Pelicans”, Sqn Ldr Bahar-ul-Haq originally conceived the idea of Sherdils. The first team leader of Sherdils was none other than Wg Cdr Imtiaz A Bhatti, (SJ) - the legendary War hero of 1965; while Flt Lt Aamer Ali Sharieff, Flt Lt A Rahim Yusufzai and Flt Lt Niaz Nabi were his formation members. The initial performance of the Team was an instant triumph which earned immense appreciation & applause and thus the ‘Tweety-Birds’ became the star performers and integral part of all Aerial Display venues. The traditional four-ship formation was elevated to Six-ship in March, 2004 and was further raised to Nine-ship in October, 2004.

The next important milestone in “Sherdils” history was transfer of the prestigious legacy from T-37 Formation to Karakoram-8 formation in the year 2009. The First Four-ship K-8 formation displayed its thrilling performance on 10 September, 2009. Maturing to Six-ship within a year, Sherdils continued to amuse the domestic as well as international audience bearing pride for Pakistan Air Force. Team work and dedication, supplemented with improvisation, resulted in evolution of “Sherdils” into today’s modern Nine-ship aerobatics team.

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## Incog_nito

Is PAF expecting some trainers from China?
FTC-2000s AJTs
L-15s AJTs/LIFTs


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## MisterSyed

Incog_nito said:


> FTC-2000s AJTs
> L-15s AJTs/LIFTs


We already have alot of Mushaks and K8 also Jf17B variant and So a Dual Cockpit F16 , i think we dont really need another trainer.


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## Windjammer



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## Bossman

Incog_nito said:


> Is PAF expecting some trainers from China?
> FTC-2000s AJTs
> L-15s AJTs/LIFTs


No

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## hoopoe

Does PAF have any plans to upgrade K-8’s ?

I would have thought this asset would be ideal for PAC to apply composites on and improve upon other aspects…


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## Readerdefence

Hi 
is it possible for PAF readjust Front landing gear and install a gun 
like A10s if it’s possible to answer my Q
thank you


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## Marker

hoopoe said:


> Does PAF have any plans to upgrade K-8’s ?
> 
> I would have thought this asset would be ideal for PAC to apply composites on and improve upon other aspects…


K-8 is a joint venture between PAC and HAIC. Pakistan contribution is less than 50 %.

K-8 is basically a two-seat intermediate jet trainer and a light attack aircraft, therefore application of composite will not be considered by the co-manufacturers.



Readerdefence said:


> Hi
> is it possible for PAF readjust Front landing gear and install a gun
> like A10s if it’s possible to answer my Q
> thank you



The latest export variant is the K-8P version, which currently is operated by the PAF. The K-8P has an advanced avionics package of integrated head-up display (HUD), multi-function displays (MFDs) and comes equipped with MFD-integrated GPS and ILS/TACAN systems. It also features hardpoints for carrying a variety of training and operational bombs up to 250 kg, pod mounted 23 mm cannon as well as PL-5 / 7 /AIM-9 P launchers.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hongdu_JL-8

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## Keysersoze

Readerdefence said:


> Hi
> is it possible for PAF readjust Front landing gear and install a gun
> like A10s if it’s possible to answer my Q
> thank you


No it is not possible. It is a trainer with a secondary attack role. It can mount a 23mm gunpack if needed. It is not an dedicated ground attack plane.

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## ghazi52



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## Bilal9

Keysersoze said:


> No it is not possible. It is a trainer with a secondary attack role. It can mount a 23mm gunpack if needed. It is not an dedicated ground attack plane.



The A10 was DESIGNED AROUND a massive Gatling Gun - the GAU-8. Not the other way round (Gatling gun fitted as an afterthought).






There are only two COIN/CAS Gun equipped aircraft like that that I know of, one is A10 (and of course including the newer A10 variant). The other one is the Russian equivalent of the A10 which is the Sukhoi Su-25T Frogfoot. Both aircraft boast armored tubs made from welded Titanium to protect pilots from small caliber weapons. By the way, the A10 Warthog uses spent Uranium rounds which can easily penetrate common modern armor in Tanks.

Wishing for that functionality in a K-8 is like putting a V-8 engine in an auto-rickshaw - overkill.

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## Keysersoze

Bilal9 said:


> The A10 was DESIGNED AROUND that massive Gatling Gun. Not the other way round (Gatling gun fitted as an afterthought).
> 
> There are only two COIN/CAS aircraft like that that I know of, one is A10 (and of course including the newer A10 variant). The other one is the Russian equivalent of the A10 which is the Sukhoi Su-25T Frogfoot. Both aircraft boast armored tubs made from welded Titanium to protect pilots from small caliber weapons. By the way, the A10 Warthog uses spent Uranium rounds which can easily penetrate common modern armor in Tanks.
> 
> Wiishing for that functionality in a K-8 is like putting a V-8 engine in an auto-rickshaw - overkill.


Yes I know. Hence my previous comment. The Su25 and A10 are not new and their design is known. Take a look at the Northrup YA9 and the Ilyushin Il-102 as well.

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## Bilal9

Here are a few shots of K-8Ws in BAF livery, pretty similar to Sherdil livery, I'd say. They probably use some Pakistani parts, though they were delivered from China.

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## ghazi52

Sherdils Alain Airshow, 2007, UAE.


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## Windjammer

ghazi52 said:


> Sherdils Alain Airshow, 2007, UAE.
> 
> 
> View attachment 788735


The thread is about K-8 Jet Trainers but as usual you just copy paste anything you find.
Theese are T-37s which were once mount of Sherdil.


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## ghazi52

Ok, My fault and your chance to hit.
You do differently , I see. Don't be so smart..... 
All your posted photos are not yours...


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## Windjammer

ghazi52 said:


> Ok, My fault and your chance to hit.
> You do differently , I see. Don't be so smart.....
> All your posted photos are not yours...


Dude I have no issues with you except asking you not to post wrong or old military pictures. I never ever claimed what I post is always mine however the images I share are always recent.


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## Scorpiooo

How much life left in PAF K8s ?


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## mdmm

What are practical specifications of Korakorum-8 NG next generation jet, made by Pakistan.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

mdmm said:


> What are practical specifications of Korakorum-8 NG next generation jet, made by Pakistan.


We don't know much beyond AVIC's specifications.

I think the PAF could consider a SLEP to upgrade its K-8Ps to the NG standard.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1459851282445967366

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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52

Nice of my village adjacent to Dam

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## Scorpiooo

23 march prade 2022 k8 performance

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## ghazi52

Test Pilots Of K-8 ....

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## ghazi52

,.,.,.,




.,.,

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## ghazi52

.,.,.




,.,.,.

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## ghazi52

.,.,.

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## ghazi52

Over M-1 Motorway...

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## johncliu88

Beautiful little birds!


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## ghazi52

.,.,.,

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## ghazi52

.,.,.

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## ghazi52

.,.,

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## Trango Towers

TOPGUN said:


> It is a nice shape indeed but i would like to see it in our grey schme


Even the green on the thunder is crap.

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## ghazi52

,.,.,.,

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## ghazi52

.,.,.

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## Zarvan

Pakistan should upgrade now. I think it's time to move on to L 15 or Yak 130 or something similar


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Zarvan said:


> Pakistan should upgrade now. I think it's time to move on to L 15 or Yak 130 or something similar


The PAF had a LIFT tender back in 2016-2017.

Based on what I heard at IDEAS 2018, the PAF had shortlisted the AVIC L-15 and the Leonardo M-346. For a time, the PAF was also considering the KAI T-50 (via LM), but when the U.S. cut Pakistan out of the FMF and CSF funds, the T-50 fell through.

For now, the PAF will be running the LIFT role through the JF-17B.

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## ghazi52

,.,.,

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## ghazi52

,..,.,

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## ghazi52

,.,.

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## ghazi52

.,.,

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## ghazi52

,..,.,

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## ghazi52

.,.,

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## ghazi52

.,.,
The K-8 has seven variants, including the K-8E, K-8P, K-8V, JL-8, L-11, K-8W and K-8VB. K-8 ..

IN PAF: First batch of K-8P includes 6x air frames, were delivered to the PAF in 1994 after which Pakistan decided to procure 75 K-8 aircraft. 
Currently, there are 55 K-8P's in service with PAF. 
K-8's are deployed in PAF's three unit(s):

No. 1 FCU Sqn. aka "Rahbers" .
Advanced Jet Training Unit .
PAF Formation Aerobatics Team 'Sherdils' .

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## ghazi52

.,,.,.

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## ghazi52

,..,.,

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## ghazi52

.,.,
K-8P Advanced Jet Trainer of Pakistan Air Force from No. 1 Fighter Conversion Unit "Rahbers".







Armed with 23 mm cannon pod, K-8P is ideally suited for anti-UAV and anti-Helicopter missions due to its excellent slow speed handling.

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## Ali_Baba

ghazi52 said:


> Armed with 23 mm cannon pod, K-8P is ideally suited for anti-UAV and anti-Helicopter missions due to its excellent slow speed handling.



Interesting and a good point - never thought of it that way before.


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## Corax

Should go for the JL-9/FTC-2000, dirt cheap, Mach 1 plus capable, PAF familiar with airframe and engine, use it for DACM, ACM, let pilots thrash it out to gain flight hours and training.


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## ghazi52

,.,..,

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## ghazi52

,..,
The K-8 has seven variants,
including the K-8E, K-8P, K-8V, JL-8, L-11, K-8W and K-8VB. 
K-8 IN PAF: 
First batch of K-8P includes 6x air frames, were delivered to the PAF in 1994..


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